# Kent CT 13 yo Male GSD needs foster/home or going to shelter



## katdog5911

These three shepherds need an immediate foster or adopter they will go into a kill shelter on Monday if no one can step up. Please contact Ruth Pearl @ [email protected] or (PM OP for phone #)
2 males 8yrs & 13yrs 1 female 10yrs great temperaments. PLEASE IF YOU CAN HELP CONTACT INFO PROVIDED IN POST

Not sure how to get picture on here. If anyone can help please call the number above. The information that I have is that the owner is losing his home and cannot keep the dogs. He has been trying for a month to place them. Ruth is trying to coordinate with the owner and any rescue so she would have more information on the dogs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I need information on where the dogs are, etc, to change the title to fit the rescue section guidelines - please take a look through. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sting-rescue-section-read-before-posting.html

I need to take the phone # out and they will have to PM you for that. 

Then for a picture, really for most you can just copy and paste, or go advanced and upload it like you would a file for email.

*Urgent* (1 Viewing) 
These dogs are currently living in High Kill Shelters and need immediate rescue! *(Pure Bred GSD postings only)*


















*Non-Urgent GSD Rescue & Adoption* 
* (Pure Bred GSD postings only)

Most of all - thank you for trying to help these dogs. If they are in NE, www.gsrne.org has a ton of information on their website. 
*


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## Stevenzachsmom

Where are they located?


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## katdog5911

They are located in Kent Ct.

Here is an update from the lady who is trying to assist in finding them homes...

Ruth Pearl UPDATE! I just placed Angel, the 10-year-old female ,She is so friendly and happy and will be with a 10-year-old lab mix and a bunch of children. Am keeping my fingers crossed that they will love Angel as much as I do. The 8 yr old is going to a foster home tomorrow... thanks to all the sharing on facebook. It is only foster, but at least he is out of danger but will still need placement.Thanks everyone,,,,, but Red River the 13 yr. Old still needs a place. He is the true angel!

So the 13 yr old still needs a home or foster. The 8 yr old is going to a foster but be needing a furever home.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Handsome dog:
​


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## LoveEcho

Kathy, I'll spread the word with my dog friends from when I lived in the area!


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## Irishspice

This old boy is exactly what I'm looking for! I just sent an email. I recently lost my senior Malinois and have been looking without success for another senior shep. If he's good with small dogs he might have a home here.

Here are my current small dogs, my beautiful Mal Logan and the other dogs I rescued (and kept for the most part, LOL) https://www.flickr.com/photos/holeinthewallrescue/sets


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## Stevenzachsmom

Irishspice, let us know how it works out. Good luck to you and this sweet senior boy.


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## Irishspice

I'm practically sitting on my phone and checking email and the PM box here constantly but no word yet. I'm going to be home for the next 4 days so I could help him settle in. He's so gorgeous we've both fallen in love with him. I have huge orthopedic beds, a nice deck and a big yard just waiting for him. 

The waiting is killing me. :help:


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## Irishspice

Update: We are taking two of the little dogs up to meet him this afternoon. Cross your fingers that it goes well. He's not neutered but Ruth says he's very mellow. I hope he's okay with my little Yorkie boy. I know my little Yorkie mix can handle him as she was raised with all large dogs.


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## Lobo dog

Fingers crossed!


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## eddie1976E

Were these dogs from the same household? What is their background? Poor things getting moved around when they should be snoozing away in their homes.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Fingers still crossed!!!!


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## Irishspice

He's here, he's gorgeous and we're in love!! 

He's a sweet quiet old man who isn't interested in the Yorkie and Chi and is a little afraid of my sassy Yorkiex who wants to LOVE HIM! She's finally simmering down, but she thinks he's one hot ticket and he thinks she's an obnoxious twerp that he wants no part of. 

It was snowing like crazy when we drove to get him, but is rescue ever easy? We met his dad who is just destroyed at losing his home and his friends. We did our best to convince him that River will be spoiled rotten and adored. I think the dog will adjust better than poor dad. 

He's been pacing for the last 3.5 hours, but he's slowing down and is not as stressed. He just can't stop moving. He's interested in everything, especially food. He loved his supper (part his crap kibble, part our good kibble and half chicken.) He tried to talk us out of our dinner but settled for a couple of bites at the end. Gentle taps on the nose was all it took to keep his face out of our plate, so he'll learn. We always share at the end, so he will learn that it's worthwhile to wait. I've also managed to step on his poor feet twice due to his pacing and appearing just as I'm taking a step (and I apologized profusely). He was sad but didn't snap. He also ate some treats next to the little dogs and let me take up a plate of food he was still licking. He's an angel all right. 

He seems leery of the big orthopedic beds and has been laying on a quilt between our desks when he runs out of steam. He's discovered that all he has to do is ask for attention and he gets it so he's playing tennis between us asking for attention. 

Wouldn't you know that in my neck of CT it's pouring rain. He's been out, but managed to both pee and take a dump in the living room. I'm sure it's just nerves so we never said anything to him about it. He didn't mark, it was more like he dribbled a trail. Honestly it looked like a drunk did it. LOL

He has horrible hips and his tail drags. He's not knuckling over when he walks, he's just really low and weak. If anyone has any info on this behavior I'd like to hear it. My last dog had no hips at all and terrible arthritis, but he was a Malinois with a straight back. This boy was bred with the slope back. All my shepherds stood square, so I've never dealt with the slope and the problems that can come with it. 

I'll take pictures tomorrow when he settles down a little. But for tonight I'm just happy to have the dog I've been looking for. It makes our home complete. 

Almost forgot to answer. The dogs were living together. If dad hadn't lost his house they would still be there. They are also from the same breeder.


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## d4lilbitz

Irishspice said:


> He's here, he's gorgeous and we're in love!!
> 
> He's a sweet quiet old man who isn't interested in the Yorkie and Chi and is a little afraid of my sassy Yorkiex who wants to LOVE HIM! She's finally simmering down, but she thinks he's one hot ticket and he thinks she's an obnoxious twerp that he wants no part of.
> 
> It was snowing like crazy when we drove to get him, but is rescue ever easy? We met his dad who is just destroyed at losing his home and his friends. We did our best to convince him that River will be spoiled rotten and adored. I think the dog will adjust better than poor dad.
> 
> He's been pacing for the last 3.5 hours, but he's slowing down and is not as stressed. He just can't stop moving. He's interested in everything, especially food. He loved his supper (part his crap kibble, part our good kibble and half chicken.) He tried to talk us out of our dinner but settled for a couple of bites at the end. Gentle taps on the nose was all it took to keep his face out of our plate, so he'll learn. We always share at the end, so he will learn that it's worthwhile to wait. I've also managed to step on his poor feet twice due to his pacing and appearing just as I'm taking a step (and I apologized profusely). He was sad but didn't snap. He also ate some treats next to the little dogs and let me take up a plate of food he was still licking. He's an angel all right.
> 
> He seems leery of the big orthopedic beds and has been laying on a quilt between our desks when he runs out of steam. He's discovered that all he has to do is ask for attention and he gets it so he's playing tennis between us asking for attention.
> 
> Wouldn't you know that in my neck of CT it's pouring rain. He's been out, but managed to both pee and take a dump in the living room. I'm sure it's just nerves so we never said anything to him about it. He didn't mark, it was more like he dribbled a trail. Honestly it looked like a drunk did it. LOL
> 
> He has horrible hips and his tail drags. He's not knuckling over when he walks, he's just really low and weak. If anyone has any info on this behavior I'd like to hear it. My last dog had no hips at all and terrible arthritis, but he was a Malinois with a straight back. This boy was bred with the slope back. All my shepherds stood square, so I've never dealt with the slope and the problems that can come with it.
> 
> I'll take pictures tomorrow when he settles down a little. But for tonight I'm just happy to have the dog I've been looking for. It makes our home complete.
> 
> Almost forgot to answer. The dogs were living together. If dad hadn't lost his house they would still be there. They are also from the same breeder.


Congrats Irishspice! So happy you all hit it off. Sounds like he will have a wonderful home with your family. What a wonderful thing you did. As hard as it was for his owner, I'm sure he is happy to know that all of his three are safe. Enjoy your new boy!


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## Stevenzachsmom

Bless your heart. What a beautiful update. Thank you so much for opening your home and heart to this sweet senior boy.


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## BowWowMeow

Aw, so glad you got him. I hope you will send his dad pictures. That might make him feel a little better. 

I have adopted or fostered several dogs who paced nonstop for days before settling in. Did you try covering the orthopedic bed with a comforter or blanket? Maybe that would make him feel more comfortable. 

It sounds like he might have spondylosis. Hopefully with supplements his hind end will start functioning better!


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## Magwart

Thanks a million for adopting a senior. They are so wonderful, and so frequently overlooked. Kudos for having such a big heart!

I've seen the pacing in new fosters too. I've even seen it in the intake area of a shelter, after owners surrendered dogs. It's fairly common in the first week. It will abate as he gets more comfortable. I think the old folk-wisdom in rescue about the rule of 3s is right: 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months (at each "3," you'll see new milestones in the dog's transition).

I once had a senior foster with muscle wasting in her hips, and the worst spine the vet had ever seen in xrays. Dasuquin (a supplement from the vet) helped her. So did lots of slow walking -- with them, as with humans, low-impact, gentle, rhythmic exercise is very good for osteo-arthritis. 

I also am always up for trying Adequan injections on arthritic seniors. Our rescue has an ancient foster now who has both bad knees and a bad spine. All she wanted to do was lay around on the dog bed, as that was all she'd done for a long time. Now that the loading dose of Adequan is done, she now likes to go for short jogs with her foster dad--huge difference!

The GatorBytes/Carmen chicken cartilage bone broth recipe (made frames or necks) is also worth digging up in the archives. It's an easy arthritis supplement that costs very little, but has nice benefits for some dogs.


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## Debanneball

Irish, this is such a wonderful thing you have done by opening your heart and home to a senior dog! I wish you years of enjoyment! Please post pictures of your tribe, big and small! Did I miss his name in any post?
Enjoy!!!!!


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## Irishspice

Well no good deed goes unpunished. I'm just back from emergency because he tried to remove a good chunk of my upper lip. It was what I call a "sucker bite" as in there was no provocation and no indication he was upset about anything. 

I want to ask about this on other forums here as I've never experienced this kind of bite in my 60 years of doing rescue. I've been bitten breaking up a fight, or arguing who was boss, but not this way. Not out of the blue.

He's been very nervous, of course, but this morning wanted my pancakes. He backed off when told no. I gave him the last bite and he gave me kisses (he was kissy last night as well) then he went to my wife and she gave him her last bite while I scratched his butt. He turned back to me and I gently stroked the side of his face and then laid my arm over his shoulders (not putting any pressure) as I prepared to give him more scratches. He looked as if he wanted to give me a kiss (ears up, eyes wide) and then *bam* he laid my face open. I was sitting down so my face wasn't much of a stretch for him. He made no attempt at a followup bite. He allowed himself to be gated into the living room while I went to the ER. He's still pacing, but greeted me and kissed my wrist. 

He's very stressed and doesn't know why he's here and not at home. He doesn't know there is no home and that tomorrow his daddy will be homeless. I contacted my animal communicator (Cindy Wenger who I've used for years) to try to solve this mystery. 

Meanwhile my wife is afraid of him. He has no place to go. And he's pushing his way in right now giving my hand kisses and wanting attention... i just got off the phone with the woman who was helping with the placement thought he was gentle and the dog has been around people and children with no show of aggression. Why in the **** did this happen? I'm marking it up to stress, but the timing of the bite has me worried. 

Oh yeah and his rabies vax is more than a year and half out of date so I get to go and get rabies shots.


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## eddie1976E

Probably stress....maybe too much to soon? I personally wouldn't feed him off the table (at least for now). He needs strict boundaries and needs to settle in his new environmental. 

Could it have been accidental? Like he tried to lick your face and got a tooth in there? 

Good luck with him.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm so sorry about your lip 

I'm not condoning what the dog did here, but I also would attribute it to stress, not knowing the new environment he is in. 

I absolutely do not want to place blame on you, but you should not have put your face in his face without really 'knowing' the dog. 

He is a senior dog, and also may have some physical pain somewhere, tho he seems 'fine' other than stressed out, he doesn't know you and you don't know him. 

Giving attention is one thing, and you've probably learned your lesson the very hard way, by not putting your face in his face or allowing him to 'kiss' you on the face. He needs time to settle in, and you need time to really be able to 'read' him. If he's NEVER shown any aggression prior, I would say it's stress, may have some physical pain (arthritis in the shoulders/back), I would not be afraid of him, just be aware that he may not like alot of physical / facial contact atleast right now.

Again, I am NOT blaming you or critcizing what you did, just an observation . Hope it works out ok


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## BowWowMeow

Aw, bummer. Is it possible that you inadvertently caused him some pain? Or that he was uncomfortable with you in such a dominant position? 

I understand how scary this was (and I have seen it happen before when a dog was super stressed) but if you think about it: he's an older guy who has spent his entire life with one person and 2 other dogs and is now in a completely different situation. I'm sure that he is disoriented. It sounds like he is in some pain and is extremely stressed. I think it is the equivalent of a senior human lashing out in a new nursing home. I have never taken in an older dog like this before but I am going to message some of the more experienced rescue people so that they can weigh in. 

I think he would do well with some kind of calming thing like melatonin or rescue remedy to help him take the edge off and settle down and get some rest. 

ETA: It also sounds like his previous owner shared all of his food with him and I'm sure that is disorienting too, to be told no for something that has been the norm for 13 years. Not that I approve of the begging behavior but it all must be so confusing to him!


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## Irishspice

I appreciate your asking around. Maybe I'm just lucky that I've had many many rescues and never had this happen. 

He is an intact male so maybe he didn't like my arm over him, although he found that acceptable yesterday. It was so that I could reach his side to scratch as he was pressed so close to me that it was the only way to reach him. 

The only no he was told was that he can't reach up and take it off the table and he backed off. When I was done he got some, the same as I've done with all my dogs. He got fussed at more severely for investigating food on the table last night and it seemed like he just thought he'd try and see if he could get away with it. He backed off and behaved himself with a tap on the nose and the word "No." 

I actually didn't put my face in his, I turned to look at him and leaned a little to scratch. He was turned away from me when he bit. He's a big boy and it wasn't very far to my face. I've been pretty careful about getting into his face. I just happened to be sitting too close to his height. 

He does not appear to be in pain. My Mal did have pain from his dysplasia and acted way different. He was very stressed when he came too as he was being abused, but he didn't have the level of activity this old man is demonstrating. River is really hyper. I don't have any melatonin, but will get some. Meanwhile he's getting a dose of Benadryl. He had one last night that didn't seem to help much.

But I'm guessing its stress as a few minutes ago he peed all down the hall, peeing as he walked even though he'd been out shortly before. Like I said, maybe I've just been lucky for years that no dog has ever done it before.


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## gsdsar

Too much too soon. Not uncommon, but I am very sad that this happened to you. 

He is super stressed, older, long car trip, new home, scared, freaked. 

I agree with a 2 week shutdown, and then followed with NILF. He may have lived with people before and had a wonderful home, but he is new to your home and family. 

He needs to be retaught how to be a good dog in your home. 

Just because you have never had this issue, you have it now. Each dog is an individual and may accept different things, don't expect that this new dog will do the same and like the same things as other pets you have had. 

As for the rabies shots. You may not need to get them. If he shows no symptoms within 10 days, you don't have to get shots. It's not transmissible until the very end. So don't panic about that yet.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I closed this thread here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/516770-just-got-bitten-dont-know-why.html so that the information stays in the same thread. 

Some good posts already - thanks everyone, thanks Ruth. 

You have an intact male GSD who has not been to the vet in probably 1.5 years - or maybe longer if they used a shot clinic. He is peeing in the house. He has not yet been to see a vet. He could have anything physically going wrong with him, including the VERY painful prostatitis. That is something that I would strongly ask my vet about. Not all vets have seen it because it happens less in neutered males and you are in NE where speutering is common so you may have to push a bit to find someone who knows what it looks like. Pooping can also go with UTIs, and that kind of prostate pain. Prostate Enlargement in the Dog

So here is what I am going to ask you - if someone adopted a dog from you and told you that they had a totally new to them dog with the same barely known background and had given that dog no boundaries, and at the same time expected the dog to accept whatever attention they were getting, what would you say to them? I mean, you'd totally get why it would happen, especially with a senior because they are so stinking lovable, but you wouldn't blame the dog. You wouldn't blame the person either, really. And you wouldn't blame anyone for being leery with him - I wouldn't! But you rescue, you risk, and hopefully this will pay off in the long run. 

You'd just help them to move on and do better - 

1. Vet visit pronto - with the precaution above of the AC issue, letting your regular vet know

2. What they tell you about his health - process, now is not the time to make decisions about his future (I have seen too many time dogs "saved" then PTS almost immediately because they were "suffering" and I have also seen almost all dogs that were in crappy shape of every age saved and then go on to have some darned good years) 

3. Continue to work on his diet and supplement and medicate per your vet - Ruth has told me about the Springtime supplements in the past, which are economical as far as you can be with those things and from what I have seen do a good job

4. 2 week shutdown - this is more of a Getting to Know You thing and it helps everyone adjust - your dogs, you, Jane (I am thinking from the flickr account), and most of all him http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/2_week_shutdown0001.pdf

5. Use that as long as you need to for him to adjust - this is a huge, huge change in his world, and I don't know that my dogs at his age would be doing any better with it - BUT FIRST - vet, listen, process, treat, and as my vet says tincture of time works beautifully.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Also wanted to add - Dr. Dunbar has a bite severity index thingy that is really good for this kind of thing - it sounds like good inhibition (says the person who didn't get nailed in the face - getting bit is scary and it hurts no matter what people say): http://www.dogtalk.com/BiteAssessmentScalesDunbarDTMRoss.pdf

This is a little more involved: Was It Just a Little Bite or More? Evaluating Bite Levels in Dogs | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

You are also closeish to Tuft's, and they have a behavior service for pet owners that is relatively inexpensive compared to the trainers there. You don't even have to go there. 

These are in a presentation I've done on bite prevention: 


> =Watch this video and see if you can spot the warning sign (hint - it happens at about 2 sec into the video). You will likely need to watch it twice. *Warning - graphic video*. May not be suitable for children. Again this shows us how fast a dog can move. Even with the handler right there he couldn't stop it. The slow motion shows just how slow the human reaction is. Neither the handler nor the reporter saw the warning sign.
> ​
> ​ Police dog bites reporter’s face:​ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6SDOTzmbSs&feature=player_embedded​
> ​ This is a classic example of inter-species miscommunciation. The reporter was showing affection for the dog by leaning in and putting both hands on the dog's neck. The dog did not interpret this as a friendly gesture, but rather saw it as a threat and acted accordingly.
> 
> *Lesson: keep your face out of the face of a strange dog - emphasize this with your kids!*​


Now that was the situation in that particular bite and there is no knowledge definitively of what happened in your situation, so for now that 2 week shut down is going to help you help him, and can be started before the vet visit tomorrow. 

But I think it is helpful to see how fast things can happen, and how slow we really are.


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## joneser

His poor little brain is on overload, his heart is broken, and he does not know what the H is going on or who any of you people are. Imagine, in a human's perspective, living for 80 years in a rural small southeast town and then you are moved to a home in NYC. Sights, sounds, smells, the way people talk, how close everyone is, everything is different, and the one thing people do NOT crave is change. Neither do dogs. They thrive on consistency, clear expectations, clear boundaries. 
It's such a bummer that you got bit...in the face no less. But I hope you can find it in your heart to not attribute his behavior as "punishment" for your good deed. He's essentially struggling through post-traumatic stress (the trauma being the removal from his home) and has no idea who is safe or how to be. 
I agree, the 2 week shutdown is by far the best way to go here.


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## BowWowMeow

Lots of good advice here! AGain, super sorry that you got bitten. I know how scary that is from experience and how that makes everything else harder to process. 

Saw your post about peeing while walking and prednisone and pain. 

The pee dribbling out is a sign of an enlarged prostate. 

Dogs manifest pain in very different ways. My malinois would look great to someone else but I notice tiny things like the way he is holding his body or hesitation at something and know that he is in pain. Who knows what this guy's signals are and who knows if this has ever been addressed. Pain might just be his normal state of being but he could be in more pain because he's been on his feet so much in the last 24 hours. 

Just wanted to add that prednisone does have side effects that include:

Drooling.
Excitability.
Drowsiness.
Rapid breathing.
Rapid heart rate.
Depression.

I know it makes me feel really weird when I take it (not calming at all) so that may have made him feel even weirder than he already feels.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with the above, dogs in pain can be VERY stoic, 'we' may not think they are in pain,but they very well could be. From your description it sounds like 'something' is going on, whether it's arthritis, or something else, he's learned to deal with it. 

With the rabies not up to date, in this state, they are pretty serious about that, especially after a bite, intentional or not, it will be reported as by law, a DR has to report it.


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## Waffle Iron

Irishspice said:


> Update: We are taking two of the little dogs up to meet him this afternoon. Cross your fingers that it goes well. He's not neutered but Ruth says he's very mellow. I hope he's okay with my little Yorkie boy. I know my little Yorkie mix can handle him as she was raised with all large dogs.


How did it go?


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## Stevenzachsmom

Just a question about the rabies. Would it help if a titer was done? Since this is a senior dog, I would think he had been vaccinated for rabies multiple times. Perhaps that would alleviate the need for the OP to undergo rabies shots?

I hope all this gets sorted out. Sending prayers and good thoughts your way.


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## JakodaCD OA

jan, I don't know, but I do know this, a few years ago, my BIL passed away, he had a choc lab that was 12 years old and not up to date on his rabies, his good friend took the dog into his home, the dog accidently 'scratched' their young son, scratched so it bled some. Not knowing the 'laws' or that the dog was not up to date, they took the kid to the ER just as a precaution for infection, they had to report it to AC, which then found out the dog was not up to date, they took the dog and quarantined him which the owner had to pay for boarding. SINCE they all used the same vet , and this dog had been a client since a puppy, the state dog warden got involved, and did give the dog a "pass" , plus the kid did not have to receive rabie shots, since it was determined the dog had never 'not' been up to date, was this one time, and he was only a couple months (since the BIL passed away) overdue. 

The AC however, was going to put that dog down and test, until the state warden got involved, and this was just over a scratch that yes bled, but didn't require stitches or anything..

As an end note, the dog after quarantine went back and lived with the BIL's friend for the rest of his days  But just goes to show, how strict some in this state anyway, can be when it comes to overdue rabie vax and bites/even scratches.


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## Jax08

In most states, a rabies titer is not going to be considered legal because the rabies titer is based on human values. Part of the outcome of the rabies challenge will be a titer test based on canine values.


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## JakodaCD OA

jax correct, that's what we're told here.. I could get an exempt on rabies vax, however, if my dog ever bit/scratched / whatever, it would be treated as an un vaxed dog subject to the law regarding that, titers would not be considered legal.


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## selzer

if the dog is 1.5 years overdue, but has been vaccinated, i would not let them give me a rabies vaccination. just say no.


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## Jax08

JakodaCD OA said:


> jax correct, that's what we're told here.. I could get an exempt on rabies vax, however, if my dog ever bit/scratched / whatever, it would be treated as an un vaxed dog subject to the law regarding that, titers would not be considered legal.


Same in PA. That's how my vet explained it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

selzer said:


> if the dog is 1.5 years overdue, but has been vaccinated, i would not let them give me a rabies vaccination. just say no.


This dog has bitten someone. Jakoda explained how it works in CT. It works the same most places if people want to talk to their authorities - a titer is the same as unvaccinated. 

Let's not take this thread thataway, anyway, considering the priorities for this dog.


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## katieliz

First I want to say thank you for giving this boy a home. Then I want to say how awfully sorry I am about what happened. But now I want to say that all the time I was reading your posts (from the beginning of the thread), the back of my mind was going "too much, too soon, be careful, go slower, BE CAREFUL...". And when I hit the post about the bite, I gasped and thought OH NO...but I confess to not being surprised. Elder dog, completely new surroundings, possible medical issues. Water under the bridge now, and again, I'm so, so sorry, but this was surely not a punishment for your good deed, but a simple accident, possibly originating from an error in judgement due to your large and very kind heart. This thread already has already given you some great options and advice, and people here will walk this path with you and help as much as they possibly can. My thoughts are with your family and with Mr. Red River. Take care. And thank you again for taking this boy in.


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## selzer

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> This dog has bitten someone. Jakoda explained how it works in CT. It works the same most places if people want to talk to their authorities - a titer is the same as unvaccinated.
> 
> Let's not take this thread thataway, anyway, considering the priorities for this dog.


I didn't say anything about titering the dog. The someone that was bit was the dog's owner. In these United States, we do not have to undergo any medical anything if we do not want to. We can say no to anything so long as we are conscious. All I was saying is that I would opt not to get the rabies vaccination IF I knew that the dog had had several rabies shots in the past.

That said, a child may be a different story altogether as the child cannot necessarily make a health choice, given they may not be in a position to understand the possible effects of the decision. 

I'm not off topic as you moved the thread about the bite here. And the OP discussed needing a rabies shot for himself. Personally, I think there was enough going on for this old dog to make a bite not all that surprising and unless the dog had some other symptoms of rabies, or known exposure to rabies, I think the odds of the dog actually having rabies incredibly low, ridiculously low. There are some serious possible side effects for humans for that shot, or we would just be giving them out to everyone, school kids, like MMR. By law, they can require dogs get rabies vaccinations, not humans.


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## BowWowMeow

Updates? I hope things are going ok.


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## Saphire

I wasn't going to post on this but this boy tugs at my heart. This dog is 13 years old and his whole world is gone. He is so old and now in a totally new place with people who are very excited to have him. This boy has no idea why his world has been turned upside down and his previous owner may have been too heartbroken to remember everything about him that might have been important to pass on to his new home.
Please try not to judge him harshly now. Deep breath and know his world is not ok for him at the moment. Give him the time to relax and find his place. In time he may be the best old boy you've had.


----------



## selzer

Rather than threatening people tht you will put your 13 year old dog in a shelter, you should take the dog to the vet and put it down. Sorry, I know elderly dogs are sometimes still full of life. But I think it is just as, probably more traumatic to put a dog this old through that experience than it would be to go to the vet they know and be put down. Chances are so slim for a dog like that to come out of a shelter. 

It is nice of the OP to have rescued this dog, but the dog is way too old to take the changes it has been through that fast. Way too much, way too soon with a dog you do not know, in an unfamiliar place. It is sad that happened. In Ohio, it is the law that you cannot put a dog down that has bitten for 10 days unless you send the head off to be tested for rabies. 

If you cannot keep this dog, because of what happened. If you think the risk is too high or you are scared. Please put the dog down, and don't take it to a shelter.


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## JakodaCD OA

hopefully the adopter will come back and update us


----------



## BowWowMeow

selzer said:


> Rather than threatening people tht you will put your 13 year old dog in a shelter, you should take the dog to the vet and put it down. Sorry, I know elderly dogs are sometimes still full of life. But I think it is just as, probably more traumatic to put a dog this old through that experience than it would be to go to the vet they know and be put down. Chances are so slim for a dog like that to come out of a shelter.
> 
> It is nice of the OP to have rescued this dog, but the dog is way too old to take the changes it has been through that fast. Way too much, way too soon with a dog you do not know, in an unfamiliar place. It is sad that happened. In Ohio, it is the law that you cannot put a dog down that has bitten for 10 days unless you send the head off to be tested for rabies.
> 
> If you cannot keep this dog, because of what happened. If you think the risk is too high or you are scared. Please put the dog down, and don't take it to a shelter.


Sue -- I don't think this advice is in any way helpful. There are quite a few people on this board who have taken in dogs under similar circumstances and the dogs have flourished. 

As you know from taking back dogs you have sold, there is always an adjustment period, no matter the age. 

I hope the dog is ok in this situation.


----------



## selzer

BowWowMeow said:


> Sue -- I don't think this advice is in any way helpful. There are quite a few people on this board who have taken in dogs under similar circumstances and the dogs have flourished.
> 
> As you know from taking back dogs you have sold, there is always an adjustment period, no matter the age.
> 
> I hope the dog is ok in this situation.


Ok. I don't know how much flourishing a 13 year old dog is going to do. Evenso, it is just my opinion, that it would be kinder to euthanize the dog than to try and rehome or take it to a shelter, IF they cannot get past the bite.


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## Lin

Did the adopter threaten to take the dog to a shelter? I see nothing about that here?


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## selzer

Irishspice said:


> *Well no good deed goes unpunished.* I'm just back from emergency because he tried to remove a good chunk of my upper lip. *It was what I call a "sucker bite" as in there was no provocation and no indication he was upset about anything*.
> 
> *I want to ask about this on other forums here as I've never experienced this kind of bite in my 60 years of doing rescue. *I've been bitten breaking up a fight, or arguing who was boss, *but not this way. Not out of the blue.*
> 
> He's been very nervous, of course, but this morning wanted my pancakes. He backed off when told no. I gave him the last bite and he gave me kisses (he was kissy last night as well) then he went to my wife and she gave him her last bite while I scratched his butt. He turned back to me and I gently stroked the side of his face and then laid my arm over his shoulders (not putting any pressure) as I prepared to give him more scratches. H*e looked as if he wanted to give me a kiss (ears up, eyes wide) and then *bam* he laid my face open.* I was sitting down so my face wasn't much of a stretch for him. He made no attempt at a followup bite. He allowed himself to be gated into the living room while I went to the ER. He's still pacing, but greeted me and kissed my wrist.
> 
> He's very stressed and doesn't know why he's here and not at home. He doesn't know there is no home and that tomorrow his daddy will be homeless. I contacted my animal communicator (Cindy Wenger who I've used for years) to try to solve this mystery.
> 
> *Meanwhile my wife is afraid of him*. *He has no place to go*. And he's pushing his way in right now giving my hand kisses and wanting attention... i* just got off the phone with the woman who was helping with the placement thought he was gentle and the dog has been around people and children with no show of aggression*. Why in the **** did this happen? I'm marking it up to stress, but the timing of the bite has me worried.
> 
> Oh yeah and his rabies vax is more than a year and half out of date so I get to go and get rabies shots.





Lin said:


> Did the adopter threaten to take the dog to a shelter? I see nothing about that here?


No. But it sounds like the wife is afraid, the husband is taking it personally -- "no good deed goes unpunished", etc. In sixty years of doing rescue hasn't encountered this. So, I figure it trying to figure out what to do with the dog is the next step. If the wife is afraid of the dog, keeping the dog there with couple of elderly people doesn't make sense. Really.


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## BowWowMeow

How is this helpful to the OP? Let's all concentrate on sending out positive thoughts to River and the OP and his wife.


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## Irishspice

Thank you SO much for all the suggestions and good wishes. Unfortunately this is one rescue story without a happy ending. The unexpected bite had a very simple and sad explanation. River was diagnosed with advanced Canine Cognitive Dysfunction by myself and then confirmed by my vet. Removing him from his home where he was able to function reasonably well thanks to two supportive dogs and his loving owner, his poor brain could not handle the changes. Having worked in a nursing home I've seen this in elderly residents with Alzheimer's who come in, become completely disoriented and start lashing out physically.

I kept a very close eye on him Sunday and he was still pacing and being somewhat hyper, but no aggression. My wife was interacting with him normally when he asked for attention, but being careful to move slowly and not do anything he might consider to be dominating. He had a good day. He had breakfast, lunch and two dinners plus treats, apparently having a cast iron gut and a hollow leg. I crated him several times, baiting him in with bologna (yum!) and he was able to take naps on the thick comforter.

I have rescued dogs with dementia before (as well as having had a pet develop it) and knew what to look for. He responded to a range of sounds, but not his name. A whistle or slapping your hand on your thigh to call him evoked frenzied aggressive barking that was random, in that he ran in circles barking and then stopped looking confused. He was afraid of the big dog beds which are basically just mattresses and did not like the comforter very much either. He fixated on an inner door and wanted to lay near it, periodically getting up to chew on the knob. I wish I knew where he thought it would take him. He also refused to go down either the ramp or the two big flat steps off the deck into the yard. He walked around in circles relieving himself as he moved.

As the sun set, so did his ability to process information. He had trouble focusing to eat and ate his dinner in stages when he could stop pacing long enough. He wanted attention, but couldn't focus long enough to enjoy a scratch. We gated him in the living room with us and the little dogs in the kitchen. He kept trying to get under my wife's desk for some reason, but accepted it when she told him "no." As the night wore on his agitation escalated. I had a couple of Acepromazine left from my Mal's fear of fireworks and a call to the vet okayed giving him one. It might as well have been a sugar pill. He did laps until 2am. I stayed up with him and slept in the chair to keep him company.

Yesterday morning he settled down and was only a little confused, but ate hugely. Calls to the rescue who helped place him with me and to my vet confirmed that there was really only one thing we could do.  My other two dementia dogs were treatable and they had one and two years with me, respectively. This old man was very advanced and his aggression made him too dangerous to try to live with. He'd have to be crated and he hated being in a crate. 

So after two big dinners and treats and another Acepromazine we took our last ride. It was 6:30 and his sundowning was in full gear. He was still very good on the leash but just wanted to run all over the parking lot and then the office, ignoring everyone. The Ace didn't slow him down this time either. He was a good boy though. He allowed my vet to muzzle him, protesting only a little and whimpered, but didn't snap, when he was given a dose of barbiturate. The muzzle was immediately removed and he was given treats. Yum! When he was snoring comfortably on the thick comforter, she came back in and we released him from all the confusion. He left with all of us petting him and telling him what a good boy he is. 

This is rescue. You win most and you lose a few. The silver lining I am taking away from this is that his daddy, who loves him so much, didn't have to do this himself on top of the pain of becoming homeless and having to give up the other dogs. The other two are doing well in their new homes. I'm going to suggest to the rescue that she contact the other two families and let them know there is a potential for their dogs to develop dementia as it's very treatable if caught early.

To answer a few things. I really didn't take it personally, I just couldn't figure out why the bite came out of nowhere. I was trying to be humorous when I said "no good deed goes unpunished." Sorry it was taken wrong. I've been bitten before but I usually deserved it for getting stupid or in the way. 

I had NO intention of ever dumping River at a shelter. If he had not had the aggression he would have been here until he passed. If it was not so advanced we would have tried treatment first. I love old dogs and special needs, they are why I started rescuing in the first place.

The rabies vax is not nearly as bad as I was worried it would be (I'm a wus) and will protect me if I get bitten again at some point. My vet said she's had it as have her techs. I probably should have had it long ago. Hey, another silver lining as my insurance will pay for it. Also I'm taking another day off from work, which is never a bad thing.

Oh by the way, 68 is not elderly even if it seems that way to some of you. 

I wish I had better news. I kept dreaming about him last night. He was so gorgeous. I wish I could have known him when he was young. He had a good life, full of love and that's more than most dogs, or even people get.

Thanks again for all your concern for this magnificent dog.


----------



## Shade

I'm glad he knew love during his life and you were there to help diagnose him and do what needed to be done. Poor guy  My grandmother is dealing with Alzheimer's and I know how stressful change is for them as they're unable to process it


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## Jax08

That is indeed a very sad ending. RIP in Boy. We didn't even know your name.


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## gsdsar

Are they going to Rabies test him? They need to. 

There is no point in you getting post exposure vaccines and having a huge bill to insurance if the dog was not rabid. He should be tested.


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## Magwart

Irishspice said:


> This is rescue. You win most and you lose a few. The silver lining I am taking away from this is that his daddy, who loves him so much, didn't have to do this himself on top of the pain of becoming homeless and having to give up the other dogs.


Well said. I admire your perspective on this. It's a hard, hard thing to be the one holding that dog as it breathes its last breath, but it's an incredible gift of kindness that his owner was spared that heartbreak.

Hugs to you. I know this wasn't easy. :hug:


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## BowWowMeow

Very sad for everyone. 

I agree that you should have him tested for rabies. The rabies shot series is not without risk.


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## Debanneball

I am so sorry for your loss. Even though you only had him a couple of days, you loved him from the get-go! I read that in your posts.. And, 68 is not old.. You are only as old as you feel! 
Keep up the good work, hope you find another rescue and tell us your stories again! Good luck, Deb

PS, I asked way back when what his name was, what was it?


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## Sunflowers

This breaks my heart.

Do you think this dog was given a chance? 

A 13-year-old? They put him at the breakfast table and started stroking him while there was food. He put his arm on the dog's shoulders while he was getting food.

This dog was stressed, didn't know why he was there, was dazed and confused and the OP had no understanding of dog body language and did not know what to do with a dog like this.

You do not take a 13-year-old GSD who is unbelievably stressed and have him at the breakfast table and treat him like a human member of the family. He doesn't know you. 

The dog give a clear signal, ears up, wide eyes, before he bit. OP doesn't understand-- thinks it came out of the blue. 
It did not.

This dog should have been put in a two week reset, kept calm, allowed to observe, treated gently, not overwhelmed like this.

Hasty dementia diagnosis?? He was pacing because he was old, and had been taken away from everything he has ever known. He was stressed. 

OP, I know your heart was in the right place, but it would benefit you and the dogs you want to rescue to do some studying on dog behavior and psychology before you ever attempt to rescue another dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Sunflowers said:


> This breaks my heart.
> 
> Do you think this dog was given a chance?
> 
> A 13-year-old? They put him at the breakfast table and started stroking him while there was food. He put his arm on the dog's shoulders while he was getting food.
> 
> This dog was stressed, didn't know why he was there, was dazed and confused and the OP had no understanding of dog body language and did not know what to do with a dog like this.
> 
> You do not take a 13-year-old GSD who is unbelievably stressed and have him at the breakfast table and treat him like a human member of the family. He doesn't know you.
> 
> The dog give a clear signal, ears up, wide eyes, before he bit. OP doesn't understand-- thinks it came out of the blue.
> It did not.
> 
> This dog should have been put in a two week reset, kept calm, allowed to observe, treated gently, not overwhelmed like this.
> 
> Hasty dementia diagnosis?? He was pacing because he was old, and had been taken away from everything he has ever known. He was stressed.
> 
> OP, I know your heart was in the right place, but it would benefit you and the dogs you want to rescue to do some studying on dog behavior and psychology before you ever attempt to rescue another dog.


I think that is unfair. The dog was evaluated by the vet. Meds. were tried. I would not second guess the decision.


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## Sunflowers

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think that is unfair. The dog was evaluated by the vet. Meds. were tried. I would not second guess the decision.


The OPD gave this dog leftover Acepromazine medicine from his other dog.

I am certainly second-guessing this.

As for the vet, everything posted on the Internet should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Jax08

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Personally, I agree with Sunflowers.

But there is no changing it. I agree to get him tested for rabies if possible to avoid the vaccination.


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## llombardo

I also agree with Sunflowers. Dogs in new situations tend to pace and show signs of anxiety. IMO there is no way to diagnose a dog without proper testing in the time frame of this particular dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom

The OP didn't have to come on here and give us an update.


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## llombardo

Stevenzachsmom said:


> The OP didn't have to come on here and give us an update.


In this case I almost wish they didn't


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## Sunflowers

Stevenzachsmom said:


> The OP didn't have to come on here and give us an update.


Proof that OP does not realize that is should have been handled differently, and expected approval and sympathy.

I love GSDs too much to sit here and say nothing.

You don't bop a 13 year old GSD who doesn't know you, on the nose. Dog wasn't allowed to go under the desk-- maybe if he had been allowed under that desk, he would have settled and felt safe.

I am writing this because there are people reading this, and maybe another dog in a similar situation might be understood and spared.
It is too late for this one.


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## pyratemom

Irishspice- Thank you for giving this old boy a chance. It was kind of you to try to help him. I know you were going to love this boy for his remaining days. They were just shorter than you had imagined. Either way, you tried and that is what counts more than anything. He will be comfortable now and no longer be confused at the bridge.


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## Pawsed

I, too, appreciate what Irishspice was trying to do. He seems very experienced with older rescues and I think he did all he could to help this dog. I'm very sorry it didn't work out as he had hoped.

Having had similar experiences, I can see how others would have a different opinion if they have not been in situations like this. There were things in his description of this dog had me thinking that something was very wrong, not just the "usual" anxiety of moving to a new place. 

I'm sorry that the dog had to be given up, especially at that age, but glad that he is now at peace.


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## llombardo

Pawsed said:


> I, too, appreciate what Irishspice was trying to do. He seems very experienced with older rescues and I think he did all he could to help this dog. I'm very sorry it didn't work out as he had hoped.
> 
> Having had similar experiences, I can see how others would have a different opinion if they have not been in situations like this. There were things in his description of this dog had me thinking that something was very wrong, not just the "usual" anxiety of moving to a new place.
> 
> I'm sorry that the dog had to be given up, especially at that age, but glad that he is now at peace.


I've had numerous dogs act similarly to this. Anxious and confused. I left them alone and let them get used to their new surroundings. I didn't give them drugs to help them along, I gave them space. While I can appreciate what the OP tried to do, I don't feel the decision was based on on a logical level. I would never ever use a vet that would diagnose a dog that quickly without really any evidence besides anxiety. It's heartbreaking.


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## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> This breaks my heart.
> 
> Do you think this dog was given a chance?
> 
> A 13-year-old? They put him at the breakfast table and started stroking him while there was food. He put his arm on the dog's shoulders while he was getting food.
> 
> This dog was stressed, didn't know why he was there, was dazed and confused and the OP had no understanding of dog body language and did not know what to do with a dog like this.
> 
> You do not take a 13-year-old GSD who is unbelievably stressed and have him at the breakfast table and treat him like a human member of the family. He doesn't know you.
> 
> The dog give a clear signal, ears up, wide eyes, before he bit. OP doesn't understand-- thinks it came out of the blue.
> It did not.
> 
> This dog should have been put in a two week reset, kept calm, allowed to observe, treated gently, not overwhelmed like this.
> 
> Hasty dementia diagnosis?? He was pacing because he was old, and had been taken away from everything he has ever known. He was stressed.
> 
> OP, I know your heart was in the right place, but it would benefit you and the dogs you want to rescue to do some studying on dog behavior and psychology before you ever attempt to rescue another dog.


This as well. 

All this in just a couple days, even a diagnosis. It's alot for any dog to take on, nm 13 yrs old.


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't even know what to say, except I feel terribly sad for this dog, whom yes, we didn't even know his name. I'm sure this isn't the outcome his previous 'owner' intended for him, to bad he didn't get to say goodbye


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## Saphire

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't even know what to say, except I feel terribly sad for this dog, whom yes, we didn't even know his name. I'm sure this isn't the outcome his previous 'owner' intended for him, to bad he didn't get to say goodbye


Heartbreaking indeed.


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## llombardo

Wasn't his name River?


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## Saphire

Now I know very little about this condition but as in people, many other conditions need to be ruled out first.
A medical condition such as cancer, infection, organ failure, or drug side effects could be the sole cause of the behavioral changes or could be aggravating the problem. Thus, medical problems must be tested for and eliminated before senile symptoms are attributed to cognitive dysfunction syndrome.

Was any attempt made to contact the original owner so his familiar face was the last thing this poor boy saw?

I mean I don't want to sound like a heartless bitch but it takes a certain soul to be involved with rescue especially with such senior dogs. They would be considered special needs as in they need much more patience and understanding. I do give the OP credit for stepping up, I just really think this decision was very rushed.


----------



## llombardo

katdog5911 said:


> View attachment 265233
> 
> 
> View attachment 265241
> 
> 
> View attachment 265225
> 
> 
> They are located in Kent Ct.
> 
> Here is an update from the lady who is trying to assist in finding them homes...
> 
> Ruth Pearl UPDATE! I just placed Angel, the 10-year-old female ,She is so friendly and happy and will be with a 10-year-old lab mix and a bunch of children. Am keeping my fingers crossed that they will love Angel as much as I do. The 8 yr old is going to a foster home tomorrow... thanks to all the sharing on facebook. It is only foster, but at least he is out of danger but will still need placement.Thanks everyone,,,,, but Red River the 13 yr. Old still needs a place. He is the true angel!
> 
> So the 13 yr old still needs a home or foster. The 8 yr old is going to a foster but be needing a furever home.


Yes his name was Red River. Maybe if the 8 yr old was placed with him he would have been more comfortable.


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## JakodaCD OA

"River", nice name, now he is a "true angel"


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## Jax08

"River". I"m glad the person who originally posted then for adoption put his name up.

Rest easy, Run free, River.


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## Saphire

I hope if the original owner doesn't know, he never finds out. He may never forgive himself if he does.


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## geena

Irishspice said:


> He fixated on an inner door and wanted to lay near it, periodically getting up to chew on the knob. I wish I knew where he thought it would take him.



He thought it would take him home, to the only home he had known for 13 years. The dog was stressed out to the max, pacing, pacing, pacing. He wanted very badly to get out of there and back with his pack where he felt he belonged. The dog couldn't be expected to understand what was going on, and at only one day in probably considered you more as some kind of abductor than his savior. How's he to know... you took him, you won't take him back, that's all he knows at the time. 

People sometimes forget that animals have their own thoughts and ideas about what's happening that don't necessarily jibe with the human's interpretation of the situation. You felt you were doing a good deed by taking him in (and you were!) but the dog did not see it that way, and was understandably anxious and unhappy about the turn of events.

Sad story, poor dog.


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## Saphire

There was a thread awhile ago about a woman who wanted her dog pts after she died. A few members posted how they knew their dogs and they would do the same...each had their reasons. 
After following this thread, I have a better understanding as to why someone would choose Euthanasia over rehoming their senior dog should something happen to them.


----------



## llombardo

Saphire said:


> There was a thread awhile ago about a woman who wanted her dog pts after she died. A few members posted how they knew their dogs and they would do the same...each had their reasons.
> After following this thread, I have a better understanding as to why someone would choose Euthanasia over rehoming their senior dog should something happen to them.


That dog ended up in the sanctuary. I just read/saw his arrival there . A very happy boy.


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> There was a thread awhile ago about a woman who wanted her dog pts after she died. A few members posted how they knew their dogs and they would do the same...each had their reasons.
> After following this thread, I have a better understanding as to why someone would choose Euthanasia over rehoming their senior dog should something happen to them.


To this, I would like to add that it is very important to have some kind of plan about what happens to your dog in case of a disaster.

At the very least, the dog should be placed with someone he or she knows.


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## katdog5911

Sorry about what happened to Red River. Not the outcome anyone wanted but at least he had a good long life and even at the very end he was not alone. Sometimes things just dont work out the way one hopes. That being said.....

HIS SON, STRYKER, IS STILL LOOKING FOR A PERMANENT HOME. He is being fostered right now but only short term. His foster family is very happy with him but live in an apt with another dog and small child so cannot keep him forever. I believe Stryker is 8.

I met him right before he was placed by Ruth, and he seemed friendly and just wanting to play ball. If anyone knows of a permanent home for this boy you can PM me and I will pass the message along to Pet Assistance (Ruth). Or she can be contacted directly.


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## selzer

Dog was old. It is at peace now. If I was the owner, I would be relieved, knowing that the dog is not suffering, is not being abused by someone, is not depressed and not eating, is not being bounced back and forth between rescuers, fosters, adopters, etc. 

The original owner should have put the 13 year old dog down -- that would have been the kind thing to do from the get go, but they were convinced by some caring people to give the dog a chance at another family.


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## katdog5911

I don't think the owner thought anything was wrong with River. From what I know, he has been trying to find a place where he could keep his dogs for over a month with no luck. He hasn't been able to find an affordable place just for himself yet. Not sure how he got in touch with Ruth (she is a neighbor of mine). Not sure how dog savvy he was. And at this point I guess it just doesn't matter. 
It does make you think about what your dogs future would be without you. Even for myself, having a spouse and grown children, who knows.... Of course I assume my dh would take care of my dogs if something were to happen to me. In the event something happened to both of us, I hope one of my sons would be able to provide a home. But that isn't a guarantee either. Just because you love dogs, doesn't mean you have the means or situation to have them. 
Which makes me curious....what do any of you have in place in the event your dog is left an "orphan"?


----------



## Irishspice

I thank you all for your concern for Red River. I do understand the ones that think this decision was rushed. 

It was not. 

I have a great deal of experience with rescues, seniors and unfortunately, with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. If you have seen it and lived with it as I have, there is no mistaking it. When it is as advanced as River's the behaviors are so different than a normal stressed dog you can easily spot it. My vet spent some time with him and agreed with me. She is the best vet I have ever known and she would NEVER euthanize a dog that she thought could be helped. He was taken in for an exam with euth as a possible outcome - I didn't take him there just to "put him down." I pray that none of you ever EVER have to go through this with your dog. 

Medication would have helped in the early stages, but not at this stage when he had become unpredictably aggressive. (As I was taking him to the vet I could not get his attention so that I could slip the martingale collar on. I slapped my thigh hoping the sound would turn his head and he launched himself at me. Had I not been able to slam the door between us I would have been bitten again. When I checked a few minutes later he greeted me with tail wags and kisses.) 

When he was home he was supported by two other dogs who he simply followed around. It's a shame he couldn't have remained in this situation for awhile longer. They are the reason he functioned fairly well for so long. 

His dad was not notified and will never know the truth. He's lost everything so why tell him about this? It would be cruel. 

I understand that some people are not happy with the outcome. I'm not happy with the outcome. I have a huge empty orthopedic bed in my living room that was supposed to house a big sweet dog. I fell in love with him the minute I saw him and so did my wife. Losing him hurt like blazes even if we'd only known him for 3 days. Shepherds leave large footprints on your heart. River will always have a place in ours.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

I am sorry for your loss. You shouldn't have to come here and defend yourself. You have my support, even if no one else agrees. 

Those who have already PM'd me and emailed me to tell me I am wrong. I heard you. Please don't contact me again. I have as much right to my opinion as you do.


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## readaboutdogs

Rest in peace Red River.


----------



## Lin

I know it would be incredibly hard right now after what happened with River, but what about considering giving Stryker a home?

Years ago I suddenly lost my cat Piper. After a short period of time, I decided to adopt a kitten. She developed FIP about a week later and passed away a few days into it, it crushed me terribly and to be honest it was a couple years before I got another cat. So I understand if its a no.


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## ugavet2012

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I am sorry for your loss. You shouldn't have to come here and defend yourself. You have my support, even if no one else agrees.
> 
> Those who have already PM'd me and emailed me to tell me I am wrong. I heard you. Please don't contact me again. I have as much right to my opinion as you do.


That is insane that someone would tell you that you are "wrong." Disagree with you, ok, but just wrong? 
You absolutely have a right to have an opinion because at the end of the day there wasn't really a right or wrong. I have been the vet in this situation and it's not black or white at all.


----------



## Nigel

ugavet2012 said:


> That is insane that someone would tell you that you are "wrong." Disagree with you, ok, but just wrong?
> You absolutely have a right to have an opinion because at the end of the day there wasn't really a right or wrong. I have been the vet in this situation and it's not black or white at all.


Agreed, not right or wrong, just speculation.

Good question Kathy, I think we have things worked out fairly well for our dogs, but I think it's something we need to revisit with family. Our oldest daughter has said repeatedly she would happily take on the task of raising her 2 younger siblings, dogs too, but even with the house be paid for, it a huge job, definitely needs discussing.


----------



## Lin

Wow, I'm shocked people did that. And it seems kind of chicken to do so via pm. Those who disagree with what happened didn't see the dog in person, they don't really know. I had my concerns about what was written to be perfectly honest, but we don't know anything without having actually BEEN there, seen the dog, evaluated the situation ourselves, etc. You can't diagnose (that includes believing a diagnosis is incorrect) a dog by what a poster said online. There's a reason vets and drs can't diagnose a patient online! You have to SEE the situation in person. What if the problem isn't that the diagnosis was wrong, but the posters description was poor, and you went around slandering someone and the situation as a result? Its easy to judge sitting behind a computer screen.


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## Jax08

Regardless of opinions, sending a PM to someone to specifically tell them their opinion is "wrong", especially in a case like this where we ONLY have opinions based on what we would do personally, is totally obnoxious.

Jan knows I disagree with her. She knows my full opinion on the matter. My opinion does not invalidate her opinion in any way. She has a right to her thoughts, her feelings and her opinions.


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## ugavet2012

Jax08 said:


> Regardless of opinions, sending a PM to someone to specifically tell them their opinion is "wrong", especially in a case like this where we ONLY have opinions based on what we would do personally, is totally obnoxious.
> 
> Jan knows I disagree with her. She knows my full opinion on the matter. My opinion does not invalidate her opinion in any way. She has a right to her thoughts, her feelings and her opinions.


Totally agree. LOL now I'm getting PMs about how I should know better as a vet when someone can give acepromazine, like when did I ever mention anything about that? LOL insanity! For heavens sake it sounds like the guy gave his large dog 1 tablet, you would be lucky to sedate a small dog with that dose so I think that's a very minor concern for the record, there NOW I have mentioned it


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## Saphire

Lets face facts here. We know nothing about anybody here and all we have to go by is our individual interpretations of what is "typed" on this message board. From that we each draw our own conclusions from what could be false or accurate honest information. 

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, an elderly dog is dead after 2 days in a new home, the original owner knows nothing but in the end this poor dog is at peace.

I have my opinion, and I think this was handled poorly and the dog paid the price. That is MY opinion and I am entitled to it just as those who feel the opposite are also entitled.

In the end, unless you have met the person on the other side of the keyboard and been directly involved in the situation, none has any idea how much is truthful. I might not even own a GSD, maybe I am some lunatic who has an imaginary dog.


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## katieliz

Rest in peace dear Mr. Red River.

I would like to preface what I'm about to write by saying that it surely seems that the OP's heart was in the right place and that their intent was good. And, that I am basing the following on the assumption that the facts are basically correct as stated by the OP. That being said, yes, we are all entitled to our opinion and here is mine. The outcome of this makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. As I posted very early in the thread, I too think this was handled very poorly and I take issue with the rescue experience the OP has, I take issue with their ability to "diagnose" canine cognitive decline, I particularly take issue with the speed at which all this happened and the lack of any sort of adjustment period for a 13-year-old dog in an entirely new home, new situation, new people. All the time I was reading the beginning of the thread, I kept wondering what on earth the OP was thinking...as I also posted very early in the thread, "too much, too soon, way too much way too soon", kept going thru my head all the time I was reading the OP's posts. Perhaps the OP has never had a rescue before who needed any time to acclimate, but it always just simply blows my mind that people, especially people with prior rescue experience of any kind, think that these dogs can just simply immediately adjust to all this newness, especially senior dogs. I will actually go out on a limb here and say that I find it absolutely unbelievable and impossible that a layman could remotely hope to accurately diagnose cognitive dysfunction in a rescue dog within days of being rescued and put in a entirely different environment with entirely different human and canine companions, where everything is new and their entire world has suddenly been ripped out from under them. Walking in circles and urinating...did anyone ever check this dog for prostate or urinary tract issues? Wanting to go under a desk...looking for a "cave" to feel safe in? A few days to acclimate to an entirely new life? All handled very poorly from the get go, good intentions or not. I'm sorry, I have to stop...bless your heart Mr. Red River. Bless your heart bud. I'm so sorry.


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## katieliz

Tried to edit, time had expired.

A few days to acclimate to a *entirely new life*, but this was "not a hasty decision". No matter what your prior experience, or how many dogs you've had with cognitive issues before...for a 13-year-old rescue dog, whose prior owner had expressed no concern over any aggression or cognitive issues, this was a very hasty decision. A few days, *a few days to adjust,* is all this dear old soul was given.


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## llombardo

As sad as I think it would be for the owner to find out, I think that it would be the right thing to do. Maybe even offer him his precious dogs ashes.


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## katieliz

no matter how sad (or how unpleasant for the OP), it is simply unethical to withhold this information from River's lifetime guardian.


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## Sunflowers

I have gone back and forth whether to post on this thread again or not, I even started a few times to cut and paste everything that had been thrown at this dog in the short hours where he was taken and then euthanized. 

I think it is important to have all this information here, for people who read now and in the future about rescuing.

Ripped from his family, overwhelmed and humanized, energetic little dogs allowed to irritate him for quite a while, plate taken before he was even finished licking it, his feet stepped on several times, not being let out when he gnawed on the door knob and sat by the door, being stroked on the face, nose tapped and having someone put his arm over his shoulders while there was food he was eating between two people at the table, being given "attention" when he might have been only pacing from stress between the two people who he thought kidnapped him...

The list goes on and on. 
Go back and read the OP's posts. It's all there.

To me, it reads like a manual of what not to do when you rescue.

Especially a 13-year-old GSD who, in human years, would be 82. 

When you rescue, the dog needs peace and quiet and some time.

That is all I have to say.


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## katieliz

yes, it's all there. and now your post, sunflowers, and my posts, are here for those who might read and learn in the future. because, for Mr. Red River, it's all water under the bridge. i have not been able to sleep tonight.


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## ksotto333

Saphire said:


> Lets face facts here. We know nothing about anybody here and all we have to go by is our individual interpretations of what is "typed" on this message board. From that we each draw our own conclusions from what could be false or accurate honest information.
> 
> It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, an elderly dog is dead after 2 days in a new home, the original owner knows nothing but in the end this poor dog is at peace.
> 
> I have my opinion, and I think this was handled poorly and the dog paid the price. That is MY opinion and I am entitled to it just as those who feel the opposite are also entitled.
> 
> In the end, unless you have met the person on the other side of the keyboard and been directly involved in the situation, none has any idea how much is truthful. I might not even own a GSD, maybe I am some lunatic who has an imaginary dog.


Absolutely....I think this everyday. I however do have two German Shepherds living in my home. I have the hair to prove it....


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## JakodaCD OA

I am not going to address my opinion on the 'outcome' of the situation, since it wouldn't make a difference anyway.

However, I WILL say, IF ANYONE is receiving "threatening" pm's regarding any matter on their opinions, please let a mod know, tho we can't really regulate pm's or have authorization over their content, IF you receive something 'threatening', that person can be banned. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but pm'ing someone 'crazy' nonsense is ridiculous and obnoxious, as michelle said..


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## Sunflowers

JakodaCD OA said:


> I am not going to address my opinion on the 'outcome' of the situation, since it wouldn't make a difference anyway.


What about making a difference for the dogs the OP might try to "rescue" in the future?
Or making a difference for someone reading this thread?

What can people learn from what happened here if all that is said is "the OP meant well and the dog is dead anyway"?


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## LaRen616

I didn't want to post but now I feel like I have to. 

This dog was 13 years old, who knows if he had months left to live or maybe another year or two. This person stepped forward and took him in, did any of you step forward to take this dog in? Yes, dogs need time to adjust, but if the Vet thought there were certain health issues and it would be in the dog's best interest to be put to sleep then I stand by the Vet. The dog was 13 years old. Did you guys spend time around this dog? Did you get to observe it's temperament or health?

I know a certain member that used to be on this forum that was euthanizing dogs left and right and people stood by their side and those dogs were younger.


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## llombardo

My lab was a senior when I got him. He was a big boy-120 pounds. His owner died and he was her service dog. I only had my oldest dog now and one of my cats. Everything was still very new for him. We let them be together but we have him s lot of one on one time. We took him hiking and swimming. It was a time to observe him for the first month. There was one fight over good and he growled when he had a bone. I worked on those two things and neither occuref again for the rest of his time with me. He got to go camping and learn how to be a dog. I could see in the beginning he was confused. I even set up a camera to see what he did when I wasn't there--lots of pacing and anxiety. Time and patience was all it took. A couple years later he had a stroke and declined quickly. The vet never seen the dog before and REFUSED to euthanize until they knew something was wrong with him. To this day I still use that vet because of that very policy they have.


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## GatorBytes

Irishspice said:


> He's here, he's gorgeous and we're in love!!
> 
> *He's a sweet quiet old man* who isn't interested in the Yorkie and Chi and is a little afraid of my sassy Yorkiex
> 
> We met his dad who is just destroyed at losing his home and his friends. We did our best to convince him that River will be spoiled rotten and adored. *I think the dog will adjust better than poor dad*.
> 
> He's been pacing for the last 3.5 hours, but he's slowing down and is not as stressed. He just can't stop moving. *He's interested in everything, especially food. *He loved his supper....He tried to talk us out of our dinner but settled for a couple of bites at the end*.* Gentle taps on the nose was all it took to keep his face out of our plate, so he'll learn. We always share at the end, so he will learn that it's worthwhile to wait. I've also managed to step on his poor feet twice due to his pacing and appearing just as I'm taking a step (and I apologized profusely). He was sad but didn't snap. He also ate some treats next to the little dogs and let me take up a plate of food he was still licking. *He's an angel all right*.
> 
> He seems leery of the big orthopedic beds and has been laying on a quilt between our desks when he runs out of steam. *He's discovered that all he has to do is ask for attention and he gets it* so he's playing tennis between us asking for attention.
> 
> Wouldn't you know that in my neck of CT *it's pouring rain. He's been out, but managed to both pee and take a dump in the living room*. I'm sure it's just nerves so we never said anything to him about it. He didn't mark, it was more like he dribbled a trail. Honestly it looked like a drunk did it. LOL
> 
> I'll take pictures tomorrow when he settles down a little. *But for tonight I'm just happy to have the dog I've been looking for*. It makes our home complete.


 
And then he bit you.




Irishspice said:


> I appreciate your asking around. Maybe I'm *just lucky that I've had many many rescues and never had this happen.
> *
> The only no he was told was that he can't reach up and take it off the table and he backed off. When I was done he got some, the same as I've done with all my dogs. *He got fussed at more severely for investigating food on the table last night and it seemed like he just thought he'd try and see if he could get away with it.* He backed off and behaved himself with *a tap on the nose* and *the word "No."*
> 
> I actually didn't put my face in his, I turned to look at him and leaned a little to scratch. *He was turned away from me when he bit*.
> 
> But I'm guessing its stress as *a few minutes ago he peed all down the hall*, peeing as he walked even though he'd been out shortly before. Like I said, *maybe I've just been lucky for years that no dog has ever done it before.*


 
Rain amplifies sounds, unfamiliar sounds in a stressed out dog who's world has been ripped out from under him...Doubt he eliminated.




Irishspice said:


> Well no good deed goes unpunished. I'm just back from emergency because *he tried to remove a good chunk of my upper lip.* It was what I call a *"sucker bite" as in there was no provocation* and no indication he was upset about anything.
> 
> I want to ask about this on other forums here as I've never experienced this kind of bite in my *60 years of doing rescue*. I've been bitten breaking up a fight, or arguing who was boss, but not this way. Not out of the blue.
> 
> He's been very nervous, of course, but this morning *wanted my pancakes.* He backed off when *told no. I gave him the last bite and he gave me kisses *(he was kissy last night as well) then he went to my wife and *she gave him her last bite* while I scratched his butt. *He looked as if he wanted to give me a kiss (ears up, eyes wide) *and then *bam* he laid my face open. I was sitting down so my face wasn't much of a stretch for him. He made no attempt at a followup bite. *He allowed himself to be gated into the living room* while I went to the ER. He's still pacing, but greeted me and kissed my wrist.
> 
> *He's very stressed* and *doesn't know why he's here and not at home*. He doesn't know there is no home and that tomorrow his daddy will be homeless. I contacted my animal communicator (Cindy Wenger who I've used for years) to *try to solve this mystery*.
> 
> Meanwhile my *wife is afraid of him. He has no place to go*. And he's pushing his way in right now giving my hand kisses


 So, you have been rescuing since you were 8 yrs old?
You said the River was not facing you and then you said his eyes were wide and ears up when he "TRIED to remove a chunk of your lip"....maybe he thought you were offering him more pancakes and thought he should snatch it before he got belted in the snout? Perhaps his prior owner used to give treats from his mouth? 



Irishspice said:


> Thank you SO much for all the suggestions and good wishes. Unfortunately this is one rescue story without a happy ending. *The unexpected bite had a very simple and sad explanation*. River was diagnosed with advanced *Canine Cognitive Dysfunction* *by myself and then confirmed by my vet*.
> I kept a very close eye on him Sunday and he was still pacing and being somewhat hyper, *but no aggression. My wife was interacting with him normally when he asked for attention*, but being careful to move slowly and not do anything he might consider to be dominating. He had a good day. He had breakfast, lunch and two dinners plus treats, apparently having a cast iron gut and a hollow leg. *I crated him several times, baiting him in with bologna (yum!) and he was able to take naps on the thick comforter.
> *
> *I have rescued dogs with dementia before* (as well as having had a pet develop it) *and knew what to look for*. He responded to a range of sounds, but not his name. *A whistle or slapping your hand on your thigh to call him evoked frenzied aggressive barking that was random, in that he ran in circles barking and then stopped looking confused.* He was afraid of the big dog beds which are basically just mattresses and did not like the comforter very much either. He fixated on an inner door and wanted to lay near it, periodically getting up to chew on the knob. I wish I knew where he thought it would take him. He also refused to go down either the ramp or the two big flat steps off the deck into the yard. *He walked around in circles relieving himself as he moved.
> 
> *
> *Yesterday morning he settled down and was only a little confused, but ate hugely*. Calls to the rescue who helped place him with me and to my vet confirmed that there was really only one thing we could do.  My other *two dementia dogs were treatable* and they had one and two years with me, respectively. This old man was very advanced and *his aggression made him too dangerous to try to live with.* He'd have to be crated and *he hated being in a crate*.
> 
> So after two big dinners and treats and another Acepromazine we took our last ride. It was 6:30 and his sundowning was in full gear. *He was still very good on the leash but just wanted to run all over the parking lot and then the office, ignoring everyone.* The Ace didn't slow him down this time either. *He was a good boy though. He allowed my vet to muzzle him, protesting only a little and whimpered, but didn't snap*, when he was given a dose of barbiturate.
> 
> 
> To answer a few things. I really didn't take it personally, I just couldn't figure out why the *bite came out of nowhere*. I was trying to be humorous when I said "no good deed goes unpunished." Sorry it was taken wrong. I've been bitten before but I usually *deserved it for getting stupid* or in the way.
> 
> *I had NO intention of ever dumping River at a shelter*. If he had not had the aggression he would have been here until he passed. *If it was not so advanced we would have tried treatment first*. I love old dogs and special needs, they are why I started rescuing in the first place.
> 
> Oh by the way, *68 is not elderly* even if it seems that way to some of you.


 
Contradiction after contradiction




Irishspice;6407490
I have a great deal of experience with rescues said:


> When it is as advanced as River's the behaviors are so different than a normal stressed dog you can easily spot it.[/B] *{yet you referred to this bite and reason for as a MYSTERY}*My vet spent some time with him and agreed with me. She is the best vet I have ever known and she would NEVER euthanize a dog that she thought could be helped. *He was taken in for an exam with euth as a possible outcome* - I didn't take him there just to "put him down."
> 
> Medication would have helped in the early stages, but not at this stage when he had become unpredictably aggressive. (*As I was taking him to the vet I could not get his attention so that I could slip the martingale collar on. I slapped my thigh hoping the sound would turn his head and he launched himself at me. Had I not been able to slam the door between us I would have been bitten again. *When I checked a few minutes later he greeted me with tail wags and kisses.) {I think you made this up to justify to the forum and possibly rehearse this in the event the prior owner finds out or maybe to exonerate yourself of any guilt}
> They are the reason he functioned fairly well for so long.
> 
> His dad was not notified and will never know the truth. He's lost everything so why tell him about this? It would be cruel.
> 
> I understand that some people are not happy with the outcome. I'm not happy with the outcome. *I have a huge empty orthopedic bed in my living room that was supposed to house a big sweet dog*. I fell in love with him the minute I saw him and so did my wife. Losing him hurt like blazes even if *we'd only known him for 3 days*. Shepherds leave large footprints on your heart. River will always have a place in ours.


 
Overall, sounds like you just didn't get the dog you were looking for to replace your Mal.

Please don't rescue Stryker.


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## Stevenzachsmom

First, I want to make clear that I did not consider any PMs threatening - just annoying. I don't post much on the board any more, because I often feel, "What's the point? Do I really want to get involved in that?" Like Michelle said, "Everyone is entitled to an opinion." Yet, I don't see that anymore. I see, Everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as they feel the same way I do. Therefore, people with differing opinions remain silent. I feel that your opinion will be crammed down my throat, because my opinion has no value.

No one wanted to see this ending for this senior dog. We all wanted the happy fairy tale ending. I don't place blame on the owner, who was in a bad place and had to give up his dogs. I do not place blame on the OP, who tried to help. I don't really place blame on anyone. I guess, if I wanted to place blame, I could start with myself.

I saw what many others saw. I thought things were moving too fast for the old dog. I thought he had too much freedom. I thought it was a mistake to feed him from the table - especially with the smaller dogs there. I didn't see the bite coming. Honestly, I was afraid he might go after one of the little dogs. I saw. I said nothing. I know about the 2 week shutdown. I said nothing. 

Great advice was offered AFTER the fact. It was too late. There was a bite. Did any of you seriously expect this to end differently after that bite? Now you have a 13 year old dog with a bite history. And a 13 year old dog that according to the OP, became aggressive a second time. I saw lots of suggestions for what the OP could do for the dog, in his home. I saw recommendations for testing, that the OP could pay for with his money. I heard no offers to take the dog off his hands - even if AC were to consider that an option.

Perhaps the dog would never have bitten again. Perhaps the OP and vet were wrong about the dementia. But consider this - Perhaps they were right. With the bite, and the show of aggression, the dog was a liability. In my humble opinion, it is unfair to expect anyone to take that risk.

I am not a vet. I was not there. I don't know what the OP saw. I don't know what his vet saw. In any case, it wasn't my call. The dog was in the care of this man and this vet. The decision was made to the best of their ability.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Lin said:


> I know it would be incredibly hard right now after what happened with River, but what about considering giving Stryker a home?
> 
> Years ago I suddenly lost my cat Piper. After a short period of time, I decided to adopt a kitten. She developed FIP about a week later and passed away a few days into it, it crushed me terribly and to be honest it was a couple years before I got another cat. So I understand if its a no.


Hey, Lin I know your heart is in the right place, but this is not a good idea in this situation, to my mind. We need to start a new thread for that boy. 

And FIP is absolutely awful, it tears you up for your poor cat, and I hope to never see it again, and the same for you.

Just a note for people reading this from wherever - - - 

Remember this always when cheerleading and thanking people in the rescue section - almost always, you do not know them or their experience, history, etc with dogs, people, anyone really. There are warnings in the stickies in these sections for a reason.


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## selzer

It is hard, when you have participated in placing a dog, whether that was actually setting the whole thing up, or just cheerleading on the sidelines, to not take it personally when it did not work out. If I encouraged a family with a toddler to take on a pit bull and the toddler got mauled by the dog, I would be devastated. I would blame myself. I would search for answers. I would probably think that the previous owners lied about the dog or the new owners did not do something right. It would be imperative to me to figure out what went wrong because otherwise, I am in a terrible place with a mauled kid on my conscience. The thing is, I could blame everyone from the dog's breeder to Barak Obama, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I would still feel terrible. 

I thought too much too fast too, I thought, "Who is this guy?" when he first posted he wanted the dog. But then he had the dog. And then the dog bit him. At that point, since the bite required the ER, the lady was fearful of the dog, and the guy had never had a dog react that way before, I figured the dog's fate was sealed. And personally, my opinion was not popular, but I did not think a 13 year old dog should be pulled out of that situation and put into another bewildering situation. I thought that IF the guy could not get over the bite, then he should have gone ahead and euthanized the dog, rather than give him to someone else or take him to a shelter, which would have euthanized him. 

I was told that my advice wasn't helpful. There has been a LOT of unhelpful advice after the dog was dead here. Everyone is an expert. Everyone knows how things ought to have been handled. Everyone knows that the guy and his vet are full of hot air. 

The final answer here is that this placement did not work out. It wasn't a little child that paid the price, it was an elderly dog. And maybe some of us are just sick over that because we could see it coming and couldn't prevent it in time, and some of us are sick over it because we feel somewhat responsible to the dog or the owner or to rescue in general. 

Me, I think that most of the time dogs adjust to a new life just fine. Some of the time they don't. Maybe this dog would have had the same outcome, however slow people went and however many chances the dog was given. What we do know is that this dog's threshold wasn't very high, he bit the guy. He might have bitten other people given more opportunities. And while 68 may not be elderly, there does come a point when we do not heal as fast, and we do get infected easier, and we do not have as much strength to overcome dogs that are out of control, and to keep others safe. With more time, it may not have been necessary, but, that is still a huge maybe. 

The grief everyone feels is for the dog, but the dog is at peace. It is the owner, and the people who may have encouraged this, and the op that will feel grief over this. I am pretty sure this guy did not wake up and go look for an old dog to euthanize today. He just never encountered one with the specific trouble this one had adjusting. I think we shouldn't laden him with our own guilt and grief over it though. 

Some of you experts, maybe should write a pamphlet to help people who are adopting elderly dogs, to let them know what things they should look out for and what not to do, and how to go slow, etc. Maybe a sticky can be made specifically to deal with the concerns of adopting elderly animals. Maybe something good can come out of this.


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## JoanMcM

I did not track this thread, nor did I read all the responses, but I had sent IrishSpice a PM after his original post. My PM was to suggest a 13 year old dog, with an unprovoked face bite that requires a trip to the emergency room for an adult, we should be thankful it was not a child.

From the posts below and I have not read all my guess is that the dog was put down. The guy stepped up and took the dog. Somewhere there is another 13 year old dog that is not a danger that will appreciate a home. 

If you want to slam someone, slam the original owner that did not step up to the plate and put the dog down instead of foisting him out into the wide world at 13 years of age.

Thank God this did not end up on the news as a report of an elderly GSD causing damage to a kid's face or worse.


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## GatorBytes

JoanMcM said:


> From the posts below and I have not read all my guess is that the dog was put down. *The guy stepped up and took the dog*. Somewhere there is another 13 year old dog that is not a danger that will appreciate a home.
> 
> If you want to slam someone, slam the original owner that did not step up to the plate and put the dog down instead of foisting him out into the wide world at 13 years of age.


The guy stepped up for TWO DAYS! on DAY THREE he killed it.

The original owner? As someone who has been in his shoes...shame on you for judging him for trying to give his dog a chance to live out his life with grace. If he wasn't sick or near death and he felt his dog deserved the right to live and not be PTS b/c of bad circumstances then he deserves respect.

Edit: My situation worked out. That was b/c of my diligence and the countless, generous and thoughtful people of this forum and to two especially special people who temporarily fostered my dog...to whom I am ever grateful (to all!)

This story really tugs at my heart strings


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## llombardo

JoanMcM said:


> I did not track this thread, nor did I read all the responses, but I had sent IrishSpice a PM after his original post. My PM was to suggest a 13 year old dog, with an unprovoked face bite that requires a trip to the emergency room for an adult, we should be thankful it was not a child.
> 
> From the posts below and I have not read all my guess is that the dog was put down. The guy stepped up and took the dog. Somewhere there is another 13 year old dog that is not a danger that will appreciate a home.
> 
> If you want to slam someone, slam the original owner that did not step up to the plate and put the dog down instead of foisting him out into the wide world at 13 years of age.
> 
> Thank God this did not end up on the news as a report of an elderly GSD causing damage to a kid's face or worse.


Slam the original owner because he came on hard times? In a perfect world he would have been able to keep his pets and his home, but we don't live in a perfect world. I'm sure he was nothing but relieved that his dogs got homes even if he himself had no where to go. The bite was not unprovoked, it was carelessness. It might be best to respond after reading some of the stuff that was going on.


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## JoanMcM

The man took the dog into his home. A normal 13 year old dog that was kept as a pet would not be stressed by having treats from a breakfast table. If anything he would enjoy it. Especially an old guy.

The man took the dog to the vet. The vet agreed with him. Should he of waited for perhaps a hospital stay or something worse on the next round?

As for anyone with a 13 year old dog that has any kind of issue, you have to step up, put your big boy/girl pants and take him/her to the vet for a last goodbye. I hate it, we all hate it, and it take strength beyond belief to do.


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## GatorBytes

JoanMcM said:


> The man took the dog into his home. *A normal 13 year old dog that was kept as a pet would not be stressed by having treats from a breakfast table*. If anything he would enjoy it. Especially an old guy.
> 
> The man took the dog to the vet. The vet agreed with him. Should he of waited for perhaps a hospital stay or something worse on the next round?
> 
> As for anyone with a 13 year old dog that has any kind of issue, you have to step up, put your big boy/girl pants and take him/her to the vet for a last goodbye. I hate it, we all hate it, and it take strength beyond belief to do.


 Normal senior dog who's life as he knew it was ripped out from under him. But he should be able to cognitively be able to think eating from table = good thing, better be thankful. Sure. 

He should have given it back to rescue. Bad fit. Read his posts...read between the lines


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## SkoobyDoo

Some of you experts, maybe should write a pamphlet to help people who are adopting elderly dogs, to let them know what things they should look out for and what not to do, and how to go slow, etc. Maybe a sticky can be made specifically to deal with the concerns of adopting elderly animals. Maybe something good can come out of this.[/QUOTE]

Hello and thanks for having me here, and I am sorry to make this as my first post. I was too hesitant like others to post here but feel I must now!


There is already plethora of info out there on helping newly adopted dogs adjust to your home, and even extra info on senior pets adjusting. It doesn't take an expert to find it!

I hope this helps people avoid the mistakes this person made with the poor now deceased dog, Red River, may he rest in peace 

After You Bring Your New Dog Home - The Adjustment Period - California Golden State German Shepherd Rescue



> Thus, it is best if you could give your new dog three or more days with very little demands, including not talking to her, petting her, or doing anything which adds more stress to her while she adjusts. It is best to keep her adequately and completely supervised by using a crate, dog kennel, or tying her to a piece of furniture in your vicinity, taking her on walks for an appropriate amount of exercise and taking her outside at appropriate times while otherwise ignoring her for several days until she starts getting used to her new life and schedule. Walks may be the best form of exercise at least initially because she may not want to play ball or other games until she adjusts to her new environment.


This is but just one site of dozens or even hundreds that detail how to help a newly adopted dog adjust to your home. 
People who have studied and done these things are not experts they merely paid attention to the dogs needs instead of their own agendas which, as we have seen, can cause things to go south pretty quickly 



JoanMcM said:


> The man took the dog into his home. A normal 13 year old dog that was kept as a pet would not be stressed by having treats from a breakfast table. If anything he would enjoy it. Especially an old guy.


Perhaps Red River may have enjoyed it more had he not had his nose smacked and told no about getting close, then actually fed from the table giving him conflicting signals. We do not know either where the small dogs, one of which tormented Red River, where when this was taking place. It sounds like the old guy was stressed beyond belief and had unrealistic expectations placed on him from the beginning.
Finally when the bite occured, he did also have an arm flung over his shoulders, which for a senior and stressed dog, can be a highly challenging signal sadly enough.


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## llombardo

JoanMcM said:


> The man took the dog into his home. A normal 13 year old dog that was kept as a pet would not be stressed by having treats from a breakfast table. If anything he would enjoy it. Especially an old guy.
> 
> The man took the dog to the vet. The vet agreed with him. Should he of waited for perhaps a hospital stay or something worse on the next round?
> 
> As for anyone with a 13 year old dog that has any kind of issue, you have to step up, put your big boy/girl pants and take him/her to the vet for a last goodbye. I hate it, we all hate it, and it take strength beyond belief to do.


This is not true. Dogs of all ages and breeds are going to show some kind of stress in a new environment. It's almost a given. It takes at least a couple weeks for them to get somewhat comfortable. I had an adult Rott that spent a couple weeks just pacing and panting. All day and night. She growled and snapped at my dad when she met him. My parents took her and that dog turned into my dads baby. When she died he went and got a tattoo of her in her memory. Time and patience.


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## JoanMcM

The guy stepped up to take an elderly dog. He stepped up when faced with what in his view is a dangerous dog situation. He went to the vet who agreed the dog had issues and should be put down.

The dog could of gone back to the rescue. Did the rescue know? What would the rescue of done with a 13 year old dog that had a face bite on an adult requiring a hospital visit and a vet's recommendation that it be put down? Do you think someone would of rolled out the red carpet? Even if they did, The ending would be the same. They most likely could not take the liability.

I have a rescue in my house right now. On the way here, she spent over 2 months in an overcrowded noisy shelter, went on a long ride right out of the gate, including a stop at Pet Co to pick up a crate, and a friend's busy house to get home for rest stops. The only thing she objected to was not sleeping on the bed which she has done since. NEVER has she taken a snap at anyone and she is a lively little thing.

This River dog is at peace now. The transition to another setting was too much for its nerves and someone gave him a chance. The situation could of been way worse for the dog (sanctuary) or people.


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## SkoobyDoo

'If I may be so bold...nobody is saying that this man did not have good intentions.
What I am and so many others are concerned about is the way he went about intro'ing the dog to his home and other dogs.
So many things were done incorrectly and as a result the man got bitten. 
No I do not think this dog was dangerous. He was confused and tormented by the man and his yorkies, albeit indirectly, ripped from his home of 13 years and tossed into a brand new situation where he was incredibly stressed.
Instead of alleviating that stress every action this home took only heightened the stress!
Smacking a 13 year old dog on the nose for what? What was the point of that? The man speaks of gates, why not gate the dog outside the kitchen while they ate?
Not letting the dog hide under the desk, allowing him to do so might have helped!
Let the dog outside on a leash when the dog laid by the door, wanting to go back to his own home, his own pack!
The dog cannot speak english words but his body language cried out for comfort and he only got scolded and his plate taken away!
This is heartbreaking. I hope by myself posting and others that this situation never repeats itself.
This dogs death was so preventable that it has caused myself heartache and I know others!



JoanMcM said:


> The guy stepped up to take an elderly dog. He stepped up when faced with what in his view is a dangerous dog situation. He went to the vet who agreed the dog had issues and should be put down.
> 
> The dog could of gone back to the rescue. Did the rescue know? What would the rescue of done with a 13 year old dog that had a face bite on an adult requiring a hospital visit and a vet's recommendation that it be put down? Do you think someone would of rolled out the red carpet? Even if they did, The ending would be the same. They most likely could not take the liability.
> 
> I have a rescue in my house right now. On the way here, she spent over 2 months in an overcrowded noisy shelter, went on a long ride right out of the gate, including a stop at Pet Co to pick up a crate, and a friend's busy house to get home for rest stops. The only thing she objected to was not sleeping on the bed which she has done since. NEVER has she taken a snap at anyone and she is a lively little thing.
> 
> This River dog is at peace now. The transition to another setting was too much for its nerves and someone gave him a chance. The situation could of been way worse for the dog (sanctuary) or people.


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## JoanMcM

There are healthy GSDs (old, young, puppies) that are put down every day that have never bit ANYONE to cause a visit to the hospital. 

I could ALMOST say a justified growl or threat display that did not cause a trip to the hospital. But I can't. Given the situation, it still would of been a dog with a problem.

A bit off topic, there is a GSD female 3 year old that is in foster right now in LI that gets along with everyone they are looking for a forever home for. Someone may want to make room for her.


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## JoanMcM

Was posting a link to the 3 year old GSD but am removing it.


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## selzer

I think you have good points Joan. I think the people on this thread are just too involved in the whole situation. 

What would a rescue do with a 13 year old dog with a bite history. 

Dog was on route to a shelter if it couldn't find a home. The owner -- that guy who loved it so much, was going to drop it at a shelter. A 13 year old dog, and what would they do with it? What are the chances of a 13 year old dog getting it out of a shelter? It would have been gassed or heart sticked, or given the needle after needless days of being bewildered in a cage with a bunch of freaked out dogs barking and carrying on. That is what this saint, the owner was going to do.

What truly compassionate rescuers ought to do in this situation is help the guy pay for that last visit to the vet, so he can be there when the euthanize his old dog. So sad. But, if you can't keep your 13 year old shepherd, please take it to a vet and have it put to sleep while you are there so that it is not any more traumatic than it needs to be.


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## GatorBytes

llombardo said:


> This is not true. *Dogs of all ages and breeds are going to show some kind of stress in a new environment*. It's almost a given. It takes at least a couple weeks for them to get somewhat comfortable. I had an adult Rott that spent a couple weeks just pacing and panting. All day and night. She growled and snapped at my dad when she met him. My parents took her and that dog turned into my dads baby. When she died he went and got a tattoo of her in her memory. Time and patience.


 :thumbup::thumbup:



SkoobyDoo said:


> Hello and thanks for having me here, and I am sorry to make this as my first post. I was too hesitant like others to post here but feel I must now!
> 
> 
> There is already plethora of info out there on helping newly adopted dogs adjust to your home, and even extra info on senior pets adjusting. It doesn't take an expert to find it!
> 
> I hope this helps people *avoid the mistakes this person made* with the poor *now deceased dog, Red River*, may he rest in peace
> 
> After You Bring Your New Dog Home - The Adjustment Period - California Golden State German Shepherd Rescue
> 
> 
> 
> This is but just one site of dozens or even hundreds that detail how to help a newly adopted dog adjust to your home.
> 
> Perhaps Red River may have *enjoyed it more had he not had his nose smacked and told no about getting close, then actually fed from the table giving him conflicting signals.* We do not know either where the small dogs, one of which tormented Red River, where when this was taking place. It sounds like the old guy was stressed beyond belief and had *unrealistic expectations placed on him from the beginning*.
> Finally when the bite occured, he did also have an arm flung over his shoulders, which for a senior and stressed dog, can be a highly challenging signal sadly enough.





SkoobyDoo said:


> 'If I may be so bold...nobody is saying that this man did not have good intentions.
> What I am and so many others are concerned about is the way he went about intro'ing the dog to his home and other dogs.
> *So many things were done incorrectly and as a result the man got bitten*.
> *No I do not think this dog was dangerous. He was confused and tormented by the man and his yorkies, albeit indirectly, ripped from his home of 13 years and tossed into a brand new situation where he was incredibly stressed.
> *Instead of alleviating that stress every action this home took only heightened the stress!
> *Smacking a 13 year old dog on the nose for what? What was the point of that? The man speaks of gates, why not gate the dog outside the kitchen while they ate?
> Not letting the dog hide under the desk, allowing him to do so might have helped!
> *Let the dog outside on a leash when the dog laid by the door, wanting to go back to his own home, his own pack!
> The dog cannot speak english words but *his body language cried out for comfort and he only got scolded and his plate taken away!
> *This is heartbreaking. I hope by myself posting and others that this situation never repeats itself.
> *This dogs death was so preventable* that it has caused myself heartache and I know others!


 Excellent posts Scooby! Welcome to the forum

The bite was accidental, if it was aggression he would have had a lot worse damage.
For all we know this was a cut, grazed by the tooth, a snap not a bite. In all of the long winded over explaining posts, did the OP even mention needing stiches?
The dog was peeing all over the place. I maintain he didn't get the dog he wanted.


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## katieliz

There are turn-key shepherds in rescue who adapt to anything. Anything. There are difficult dogs who, at first, seem beyond hope or help, who turn out to be awesome and loving companions. There are other dogs who fall anywhere and everywhere along this spectrum. Anyone with even minimal rescue experience and good common sense, knows that until you know what you have, you err on the side of safety. You go slow, you take precautions, you are careful. JoanMcM, in rescue there is no way to know in two days, or two weeks, or, some would say even two months, whether a dog is a "normal" german shepherd, there is no such classification, especially in rescue. These are large, powerful and highly intelligent dogs, and react in varying ways to varying circumstances with varying degrees of temperament soundness. (The rest of this post is based on the information given by the OP, with the assumption of relative accuracy). This boy had clear physical symptoms which should have been evaluated before any trust or much physical handling or correction was given/done. Even a child is taught not to get in a strange dogs face or place arms or their own bodies across/over a strange dog. Nobody is saying the OP is a bad person, just about everyone has acknowledged that his intent was a good one. Despite his claim of long rescue experience, his actions say otherwise or indicate unrealistic expectations of a strange dog, especially a strange elder dog. This would simply be bad judgement from an inexperienced rescue person, it is inconceivable that a seasoned rescuer would make the assumption that this was the correct way to integrate a new, elder rescue into a new home and family. And, I'm so sorry to have to say, that in the world of rescue I see these completely unrealistic expectations and inappropriate treatment/integration of new rescues all the time. All the flowery descriptions of a dog the OP knew nothing about. Sad but true, people have varying motives for doing rescue...this dog did not turn out to be the fairy tale animal (one of those turn-key dogs), that the OP had hoped, a certain level of (understandable), fear set in (both OP and wife), once the dog had a bite history...the outcome was inevitable. Not the first time I have seen/read of someone getting in over their head and having a knee-jerk reaction. Was it a better outcome than sending the dog to a shelter or sending him to yet another home? Sure. Anyone doing rescue for even a short amount of time learns quickly that there are things worse than death for any rescue dog, particularly an elder one. So, of course, there are worse things. That does not alter the fact that all this possibly could have been different for Mr. Red River, and all of it was was a cluster from the get-go, and for the whole two days. An accident waiting to happen. *Two days*, it just slays me that the OP could even say that *no decision he made was hasty. And vets get paid to do what the client asks, it is a rare one who will refuse a client's request and suggest alternatives. 
*
Lots of good and valuable information on this thread about what not to do when it comes to taking in a strange dog, even when the intentions are seemingly good. And if even one person reads this thread and learns anything from it, then that will be a noble purpose for Mr. Red River's death, and certainly is the reason and purpose for my continued posts.

Blaming the original owner is in very poor taste (imho), and saying or thinking that anything anyone here could have said or done before what happened happened, is not realistic. Opinions of events posted on the internet are always subject to question, but forming opinions after admittedly not even reading the posted descriptions of events, is unkind and quite beyond comprehension.


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## Lin

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I don't post much on the board any more, because I often feel, "What's the point? Do I really want to get involved in that?" Like Michelle said, "Everyone is entitled to an opinion." Yet, I don't see that anymore. I see, Everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as they feel the same way I do. Therefore, people with differing opinions remain silent. I feel that your opinion will be crammed down my throat, because my opinion has no value.
> 
> No one wanted to see this ending for this senior dog. We all wanted the happy fairy tale ending. I don't place blame on the owner, who was in a bad place and had to give up his dogs. I do not place blame on the OP, who tried to help. I don't really place blame on anyone. I guess, if I wanted to place blame, I could start with myself.
> 
> I saw what many others saw. I thought things were moving too fast for the old dog. I thought he had too much freedom. I thought it was a mistake to feed him from the table - especially with the smaller dogs there. I didn't see the bite coming. Honestly, I was afraid he might go after one of the little dogs. I saw. I said nothing. I know about the 2 week shutdown. I said nothing.
> 
> Great advice was offered AFTER the fact. It was too late. There was a bite. Did any of you seriously expect this to end differently after that bite? Now you have a 13 year old dog with a bite history. And a 13 year old dog that according to the OP, became aggressive a second time. I saw lots of suggestions for what the OP could do for the dog, in his home. I saw recommendations for testing, that the OP could pay for with his money. I heard no offers to take the dog off his hands - even if AC were to consider that an option.
> 
> Perhaps the dog would never have bitten again. Perhaps the OP and vet were wrong about the dementia. But consider this - Perhaps they were right. With the bite, and the show of aggression, the dog was a liability. In my humble opinion, it is unfair to expect anyone to take that risk.
> 
> I am not a vet. I was not there. I don't know what the OP saw. I don't know what his vet saw. In any case, it wasn't my call. The dog was in the care of this man and this vet. The decision was made to the best of their ability.


Those are pretty much exactly my thoughts and feelings about the situation, so why bother typing it out again  

Blaming the owner is really ****ty. They couldn't control the situation they were in becoming homeless. Its NOT easy to care for your dogs while homeless, and 3 dogs?! I'd say completely impossible. In this case they did what they felt was in the best interest of the dog. Its very sad that it ended this way. 

Things like this are also why I would have had Tessa put down if I passed away, but she did unexpectedly instead. She is one of the rare ones that would NOT have been ok. Most dogs will though. But you have to take it SLOOOOOWWWWWWWW. I'm not experienced with seniors, but I am with rescuing and I've had some really tough cases from neglectful and abusive homes including a borderline fear aggressive dog that if had continued to be abused I have no doubt he would have bit. And in fact, if I didn't know what I was doing when I worked with him I may have been bit. The problem is once you have that bite history theres no going back. 

As to the bite injury from this thread, since he sought medical treatment I assume it was NOT just a scratch but at least punctures. And you usually don't do stitches if you can avoid it since it increases the risk of infection.


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## GSD2

This is just so very sad. I didn't notice anyone mention the use of acepromazine that was given to the dog before his diagnosis of cognitive dysfunction. I want to comment on that, as many people think it is a tranquilizer, and it is not. Not to mention giving another dogs medicine. I feel this played a role in the outcome. I copied text from an article about ace......

Ace is a dissociative agent and prevents the patient from understanding his environment in a logical manner. So, the actual fear level of the animal is increased. Compounding the situation, the animal is being restrained and it makes a negative association with the entire experience.

I am really saddened over this. 

RIP River.....


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## katieliz

thank you SO much, GSD2, for pointing this out. I was so focused on the horribly short period of time this boy was given to adjust that I COMPLETELY overlooked the acepromazine issue...which is likely one of the most important aspects of this whole sad state of events. thank you again for adding the information to this thread.


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## Nigel

ugavet didn't seem to think it would be much of a factor.



ugavet2012 said:


> Totally agree. LOL now I'm getting PMs about how I should know better as a vet when someone can give acepromazine, like when did I ever mention anything about that? LOL insanity! For heavens sake it sounds like the guy gave his large dog 1 tablet, you would be lucky to sedate a small dog with that dose so I think that's a very minor concern for the record, there NOW I have mentioned it





katieliz said:


> thank you SO much, GSD2, for pointing this out. I was so focused on the horribly short period of time this boy was given to adjust that I COMPLETELY overlooked the acepromazine issue...which is likely one of the most important aspects of this whole sad state of events. thank you again for adding the information to this thread.


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## SkoobyDoo

Nigel said:


> ugavet didn't seem to think it would be much of a factor.


Acepromazine acts unpredictably in dogs. Most the vets I have seen won't even prescribed it because of that.
In addition, some dogs are more sensitive to it than others. Dogs should not even be giving it until they have had blood work, because if liver function is impaired the effects could have been enhanced.
Just one more thing in the list of things that should not have been done :-(


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## JoanMcM

Thanks Selzer. I agree. The dog should of been spared the uprooting and having to rely on the kindness of strangers, albeit well intentioned ones.

The original owner thought they were doing the right thing. The person who took the dog in stepped up to help no doubt because they were doing the right thing. The way to **** is surely paved with good intentions. I have gone down that road enough times myself.

I believe there was something wrong with this dog. Maybe there all along, maybe brought on by the change in environment. Who knows. I do not think what he had was something that could be 'loved' away.

First off a good normal male GSD is not 'rattled' by what was described by the rescuer to bite someone's face. Even in the interpreted 'read between the lines' versions. The one that got me was where the male GSD is 'rattled' by the yappers.  

I had a male WGWL GSD that lived to 15. The best dog I ever owned. If at 13 my dog had been given treats and a comfy bed in someone's house he would of been looking for room service and additional perks. Most times he had relatives housesitting if I had to go out of town. A few times he went to stay with relatives so he did have to experience a change in environment. He was wonderful. Was exposed to all kinds of people and environments and would not miss an opportunity. People loved him and he was all GSD. 

We need to expect more of ourselves and of our dogs.


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## llombardo

JoanMcM said:


> Thanks Selzer. I agree. The dog should of been spared the uprooting and having to rely on the kindness of strangers, albeit well intentioned ones.
> 
> The original owner thought they were doing the right thing. The person who took the dog in stepped up to help no doubt because they were doing the right thing. The way to **** is surely paved with good intentions. I have gone down that road enough times myself.
> 
> I believe there was something wrong with this dog. Maybe there all along, maybe brought on by the change in environment. Who knows. I do not think what he had was something that could be 'loved' away.
> 
> First off a good normal male GSD is not 'rattled' by what was described by the rescuer to bite someone's face. Even in the interpreted 'read between the lines' versions. The one that got me was where the male GSD is 'rattled' by the yappers.
> 
> I had a male WGWL GSD that lived to 15. The best dog I ever owned. If at 13 my dog had been given treats and a comfy bed in someone's house he would of been looking for room service and additional perks. Most times he had relatives housesitting if I had to go out of town. A few times he went to stay with relatives so he did have to experience a change in environment. He was wonderful. Was exposed to all kinds of people and environments and would not miss an opportunity. People loved him and he was all GSD.
> 
> We need to expect more of ourselves and of our dogs.


Well the OP thought he had some pain...
_*"He has horrible hips and his tail drags. He's not knuckling over when he walks, he's just really low and weak. If anyone has any info on this behavior I'd like to hear it. "*_

If this is the case, what normal person would touch a dog or go to grab a dog around the neck? Especially if in your mind you thought he was in pain? What do you think a dog does that is in pain? Or I know it was another diagnosis by the OP...

The reality here is that a decision was made very quickly. A vet that sees a dog for the first time and decides to put a dog to sleep in 5 minutes is not a vet that took any time to diagnose a dog but let the owner diagnose it. A owner that owned the dog for less then a couple days. No X-rays, no blood work--nothing. Not a vet I would ever personally use or recommend. 

The only thing wrong with this dog is that he wasn't given time to adjust. There is no way that you can say that your own dog would not have acted the same way. You might want to think that and if it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead and please do think that. 

My dogs are treated well, but they would want to come home. They would miss me. They would need an adjustment period. After all they are my dogs and bonded to ME.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This is just going to keep going around and around, and not in a productive way. Out of respect to this dog, I am closing the thread. May he rest in peace. 

It is a sad story, and as I tried to allude to in my post on waiting and processing information from the vet before making any decisions, this is a pattern seen before in rescue. 

Take some time with your senior dogs today and really watch them. Give them a little extra treat today too. 

Big Dogs, Big Heartworm: A Note to Mila's Person


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