# Crates - A handy tool or a lazy way out?



## Wubba (Jun 4, 2011)

Hi everyone!

This is probably going to be a pretty long post, so for those of you to manage to read through the whole thing, kudos!

Let me start off by saying that in what I am not about to write I am not trying to accuse anyone of anything, nor am I trying to say whats right and whats wrong, and I'm not looking to offend anyone. This is simply a topic that interests me and seeing that the majority of the members on this forum seems to be American, I am interested to hear you guys' opinion, as it seems to differ a bit from the opinions here (Norway).

SO! The crate! I've heard so many opinions in regards to the use of the crate for our beloved companions; the dog. When I first started doing research and preparing for my own pup a few years back I was living in Ireland, and most of what I read about dogs was on English speaking forums, probably american when I think of it, but also some UK ones. 

When I read about important things to teach a puppy, one of the most mentioned things was crate training. And I must admit that I had never even heard of it at first. When I was a kid, my family had a dog, and a crate had never been used at any point, so this was all new to me. The more I read about it the more I figured "Hm. These guys are all experienced dog owners, surely they must be right and the crate must be necessary." 

So when I got the puppy I also got a crate for him. He slept in it at night next to my bed (not entirely peacefully as he'd whine for a bit before going to sleep, or sometimes when waking up randomly). However when he was about 3-4 months old I decided to try and just let him sleep outside the crate. And never has he slept more peacefully. It's not that he 'hated' the crate, he just seemed to enjoy it more outside it. I thought it would be "the dogs safe den" however once it was moved to stand in the living room with the doors open, he was barely ever inside it. Only if I put treats in there. The floor and the sheepskin was a much better place to sleep it seemed.

So now comes the part that the topic is actually about and that I am really wondering. Is it so that in America it's seen as almost obligatory to have a crate for your dog, and is it really necessary? 

I spend a lot of time on a Norwegian dog forum which is based a lot around positive training, and in there the crate is frowned upon. And this I can understand, cause after reading a lot about it and seeing how some people use it, I can see how many are opposed to it. 

For example, some people have their dog sleep in the crate at night. That's for, let's say, 7 hours. Then they put the dog in a crate while they're at work. To be nice we'll say it's a 8 hour workday including travel time. This is 15 hours a day inside the crate for a dog, and THAT I think is wrong. 

If you've observed a dog at night while they sleep, they often will move from one spot to another, probably because it's too hot or they simply feel like a change from the surface they're sleeping on. In a crate, this will not be possible.

A lot of people will insist that the dog loves its crate and automatically goes in there at night when it's bedtime. Someone I know recently adopted a dog and the previous owners had said that the dog loved to sleep in his crate at night. When the new owner left the crate open that night without closing it (as the previous owners had), the dog chose to sleep on the carpet instead. 

Is it possible that the dogs have simply resigned to this and go in their crates, not because they want to, but because it's become a habit? I mean, dogs can "get used to" the most incredible things. Even jumping out of airplanes in parachutes!

Crates for dogs to use inside seems like a relatively new phenomenon. 20 years ago this was not even something that would be considered by most dog owners (of course with exception of car cages, and crates for dog shows, competitions etc.) Is it a new easy way out of teaching the dog to be home alone?

Something that is often repeated on the forums I go to is that crates are the lazy mans way of preventing separation anxiety. Now, a lot of dogs struggle with this, which means a lot of owners too, and many of the owners that do, have not taken the time to actually do 'alone-training' with their dogs, so instead of doing this they stuff the dog inside a crate during the day to prevent it from wrecking the house. (These are not my words, I'm repeating what's being said on the forums.)

Another reason why a lot of people I know are against it, is if the dog has an accident in the shape of a poo or a piddle, or gets sick and throws up inside its own crate while the owner is at work, they have to sit there in their own feces.

Myself, I do not use a crate anymore except from in the car (and later when we will join competitions I will use it then.) And it's working fine for me. Dog relaxes while I'm gone, sleeps through the night in the living room, and we're all quite happy about it.

Now I wonder, since crates seems to be such a wide spread thing in America, is there a particular reason for this? I was wondering if perhaps it could be due to there being a lot more adopted dogs there that may have issues from their previous homes and needs the crate to relax?

Or am I completely wrong and not nearly as many as I think are actually using a crate? As mentioned before, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but simply educate myself to see what is actually the facts around this and what others opinions are and why the crate has become so popular?

I would very much appreciate it if someone took the time to share their opinions, and by all means, DO disagree to what's been written. After all, that's a major part of what a discussion forum is about!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

It certainly can be abused and an easy way out for owners who aren't able or interested in training. Perhaps it makes dog ownership for inexperienced or 'lazy' owners to be more attracted to owing a dog than they would have been if crates were not a common practice. However, I've used one for probably the last 20 yrs and I think they're invaluable during puppyhood and training. I have the kind of dog that can be trusted to be left out alone, day or night without any problems. Maybe it's the dog, maybe it's the training - most likely both.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the dog is use to being crated that is a wonderful thing...especially if they have to be vetted or at a groomer.
If a dog has proven themselves to be safe out of a crate with out destructing or getting into inappropriate items, then I feel they've earned the right to freedom out of the crate.
I have them set up in my house for service people visiting or when I want them contained. When we are away, they have free run of the home, because they are good.
I crate in the vehicle for safety reasons, but have had my dog ride loose in the vehicle. At training when we are not working, dog is safely crated.
I think a baby pup should be crated when not supervised, but _not_ for lengthy periods of time. 
Crates should be the dogs safe place, they know they can go there when they feel the need to get away from it all!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I have NEVER used a crate for my dogs, and I don't own a crate. By the time my german shepherd was 10 months old or so, he could be trusted anywhere in the house and I had trained him not go get into anything he shouldn't even when I am not home for hours. My lab is also trained to roam free. They sleep where they want and they don't even know what a crate is.

I think this thread is very interesting. Consider using the thread tools and adding a poll to this thread to give a better idea of just how many people are using crates for their dogs.


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## Riley3696 (Aug 24, 2011)

I crate when they are puppies but as soon as they are trust worthy I leave them out. Most people use dogs to help protect the house and if the dog is in a cage its no help at all. I don't work so my pups are not crated very often only if I am in the shower or if I go shopping. At night I use a leash tied to me which one teaches being tied and the other I can tell when he moves to make sure he doesn't need out.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Mine are 11 and 7 years old. Daisy ,11 was in a crate as a puppy until she learned to escape.After a bit she had free roam and has only ever been in crate for medical reasons.Lucky was crated the first few nights here and since has not been crated that was 6 years ago.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

How long is too long in a crate?

This is from June 2011. Sheds some light on this subject.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

I crate trained my dogs when they were puppies, doing the potty-training, time out (not for them being bad, but for me needing a break from constantly chasing them and keeping them out of things), and at night.

Now that my Chihuahua is over two years, she rarely uses her crate. I only ask her to go to her crate when I need to keep the dogs seperated, when company is over, or if I travel somewhere other than my house and need to make sure she doesn't have any issues (she sometimes gets a little scared when she's away from home). Other than that, she hasn't been crated in a while.

As for Alex, she's just now one year old - I use her crate a lot still, but not as much as I used to. I did the same with her that I did with my Chihuahua, crate-wise, and still crate her when I'm out of the house. I'm slowly introducing her to the whole house roaming concept, but I'm taking it very slowly since I have two cats and the chi-chi. I have to put the cats in the room and either take the chi-chi with me (like when I visit my parents' house) or crate her - so it's give or take with the two. She's slept out of her crate with me in my room for about four months now. During the day, I crate her if I'm going to be running errands or going to class, but if I'm going to be longer than a few hours I let her in the backyard (a few of you will probably want to nag me when you read that, please refrain!).

As for my other dog, the Doberman Pinscher, she only used the crate when I first brought her in the house and when she was going through her knee surgery. She has the full run of the house when I'm home, and while I'm gone the full run of a bedroom.

When it comes to 'lazy' people, however, I honestly don't think they could stand to crate a dog, unless it was previously crate trained. Having crate trained two dogs, I know how annoying and patience-trying it can be to train the dogs to stay quietly in the crate. I think someone that's lazy would most likely just toss the dog outside and leave them out there 24/7. But that's just my take on it.

EDIT: Forgot to mention; both my dogs' crates are not only big enough for them to stand up and turn around in, but, Alex's crate is probably a whole size bigger than it 'should' be (she gets up, stretches with a little room leftover, and there's about a foot above her when she stands up), and Isabel's crate could probably fit three of her in there comfortably.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If used correctly and not abused, a crate is one of the best training tools out there. Maybe the best.


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## Wubba (Jun 4, 2011)

Thanks for the replies everyone. And Jack's Dad for the link to the thread. So far it looks like most people have a healthy view on crates. 

Germanshepherdlova: It would indeed be a good idea to use a poll, however it wont let me go back and edit the first post now, so I guess I'll have to do with reading the replies.

Alexandria610: I can certainly see the need for a crate in this case and you don't seem to be over using it at all. In regards to crate training, (and I might be wrong when saying this but I can only speak from my own experience) I actually found it quite easy. Whenever I'm out driving the dog will be in the car cage/crate or when we're at training and such he will be in it during breaks, and he lies still and relaxes while waiting patiently. Took me a day to get him used to it. Could be that I was just lucky.

Stosh: I do agree that it's handy during puppyhood and house training, especially during the night, but then again, this is my first own dog so I don't know how it would have been without it. For all I know he could still be peeing inside if I hadn't used it.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wubba, you don't need to edit the first post to add a poll. Just go to where it says Thread Tools and click on it, and then you will see the option to add a poll to the thread.


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## Wubba (Jun 4, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Wubba, you don't need to edit the first post to add a poll. Just go to where it says Thread Tools and click on it, and then you will see the option to add a poll to the thread.


Heeey, would ya look at that! You learn something new every day! Thank you! Shall add one now.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Wubba said:


> Alexandria610: I can certainly see the need for a crate in this case and you don't seem to be over using it at all. In regards to crate training, (and I might be wrong when saying this but I can only speak from my own experience) I actually found it quite easy. Whenever I'm out driving the dog will be in the car cage/crate or when we're at training and such he will be in it during breaks, and he lies still and relaxes while waiting patiently. Took me a day to get him used to it. Could be that I was just lucky.


Well, I also forgot to mention that my two dogs were somewhat special cases in the crate-training area. The chihuahua was a puppy mill rescue and thus HATED the crate in the beginning, so it took some getting used to to get her to like it again. In Alex's case, I have no clue what happened to her before she was abandoned in a home and I rescued her at 4.5 months. I'm not sure how old your pup was when you started crate training with him, but Alex had been (assumed) almost 5 months crateless and didn't seem to understand the concept very quickly.

But I have heard of some dogs taking to the crate quickly - the foster I had once took to her crate the first night, as well, so my two could just be outliers to the norm. Glad to hear your's took to it so quickly 

EDIT: Oh, and you mentioned you use it in the car? That's actually a LOT better than letting them to be loose in the back. There isn't much room in my car for any crate (but luckily there's a travel crate I can use) so I can't use the metal crate, but I know if I had a truck/suv/van I would be crating both my dogs on rides. I would love to have them all excited and sticking their heads out the window, but if there was ever a wreck or I had to slam on brakes for any reason, I wouldn't want my dogs getting hurt flying through the windshield or hitting and killing me and them if there were an accident. There was actually a study that in the impact, the dog (an 80lb lab mix, I believe) would fly through the window with enough force as a baby elephant. That's a lot.

One of my friends actually had a REALLY bad accident once, and she had her Border Collie in the back of her hatchback in a crate. The car was crushed when someone t-boned her, and the hatchback opened up, ejecting the dog and crate. The crate (no lie) rolled and bounced almost 50 feet down the road........and the dog (minus a few bumps and bruises) was perfectly fine. The crate was banged up, but the dog was good. My friend actually had more injuries than the dog, and she wasn't even ejected.


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

I like the crate. It worked well for me during training, especially if I ever got to the point where I was losing my patience with him, it was somewhere i could put him so I could have a time out before I did something I regretted.

He is 16 months now, and he still sleeps in it. We tried leaving him out of the crate, but he doesn't go to sleep and ends up wandering all night. So I guess we will wait until he is a little older and try again. 

Also, I think even if you don't want to crate your dog regularly, they should still be trained in case they need to stay at a vet hospital/groomers/boarding, etc. I have seen many caged dogs that weren't crated trained and have bloody noses, mouths, even chipped tooths from biting cage bars.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I don't really know how widespread the use of daily crating is in the US. For me, I use a crate when puppies are small and might get into things it shouldn't. Or nibble on the cupboards when I am at work. I use the largest size crate. It's 42 inches long and the puppy gets the entire crate. I don't use them for potty training, because they learn that from my other dogs very quickly (except for my Malinois).

When my puppies are about 6 months old and seem to be doing well, they get the whole kitchen and an open crate. This is while I am at work. At night, the puppy is leashed to my bed for the first month. So, if it thinks about wandering off, I will know. If somebody has to go potty in the night, my male, Balto, will come and alert me. (He's an interesting dog.) 

I don't know what houses look like in Norway, but the homes I've seen in The Netherlands have a different layout than in the US. People I know in The Netherlands never let their dogs sleep upstairs. And their entire downstairs is usually tiles, sometimes wood. 

The people I bought Boaz from have an entry area that is separate from the rest of the living areas, and their dogs sleep there. It is easy to clean up after a dog on tile or wood, and much easier in the smaller area where they sleep at night. Though the nesting instinct probably takes over so they don't pee at night where they sleep.

Many homes in the US are carpeted throughout, and are very difficult to clean entirely if a dog urinates on it. I know, I had a sick dog and after he died, I had to pull up all the carpet. That was 3 years ago and I still haven't finished putting a new floor in. 

In the winter, I put two soft crates in the living room with the doors always open. At night while I'm watching TV, those two crates will have dogs in them. One cold winter I brought those crate upstairs and the dogs definitely slept in them all night, or most of the night. 

One other point, my female hates my Dutchie, and she will run into the crate to get away from him. 

So, there is always one crate in my house. It will have various uses, but nobody is forced to stay in it. That's my story.


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## Wubba (Jun 4, 2011)

Alexandria610 said:


> Well, I also forgot to mention that my two dogs were somewhat special cases in the crate-training area. The chihuahua was a puppy mill rescue and thus HATED the crate in the beginning, so it took some getting used to to get her to like it again. In Alex's case, I have no clue what happened to her before she was abandoned in a home and I rescued her at 4.5 months. I'm not sure how old your pup was when you started crate training with him, but Alex had been (assumed) almost 5 months crateless and didn't seem to understand the concept very quickly.
> 
> But I have heard of some dogs taking to the crate quickly - the foster I had once took to her crate the first night, as well, so my two could just be outliers to the norm. Glad to hear your's took to it so quickly


Ah, yes I can see how it might be more difficult to teach it to dogs who has had no experience with it before (and/or has bad associations with it). 

And I actually have to correct myself a bit when I think about it. I used a crate in early puppyhood for my boy as well (however he never properly accepted it then, hence why I stopped using it.) So when I got the new cage which was meant for the car and training it only took a day then (I believe he was about 5 months but I can't remember for sure.) So he was not -completely- without experience with crates. Perhaps that why the second time around was so smooth.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Trouble with the poll is I can only choose one. 


I choose:

In the car

And puppyhood


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I crate train for several reasons. First, I do not allow dogs to ride "free" in a vehicle. It's extremely dangerous and I was in a near-accident (not my fault) where my dog was thrown inside the vehicle and would have gone through the front windshield if she'd not been restrained. Since I travel a lot with my dogs, both for fun and to dog events, I want them to enjoy traveling and be comfortable in their crate so they need to be acclimated. When I let my dogs out the front door they run to their respective crates and jump in ready to go. Second, as much as I love dogs many of my family and friends do not (allergies, dog attacks, etc) so I need a good place to keep my dogs quiet and comfortable out of respect for my guests. Third, if a dog has an injury or needs to be on "crate rest", I'd rather have a dog that is already acclimated to being calm in a crate. When Nikon had his foot infection he was supposed to be kept confined and still for a month. That would have been a nightmare if he was a few years old, never been in a crate, and panicked. 

I don't punish dogs with a crate. If they are being naught I put them out in the yard. The crate is their den, their safe, quiet place. Often Nikon will go sleep in his crate because he likes the bedding.


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## Wubba (Jun 4, 2011)

sharkey19: I do agree that crate training is a necessity, for the reasons you mentioned in regards to being at the vet and such. Also for riding in cars as its usually safer for both owner and dog for the dog to be in a crate.

BlackPuppy: Norwegian houses varies from everything to wooden floors, to tiles to carpets, so can't really give an example  In regards to a crate with a constant open door, I have no possible objections in regards to that, nor do anyone else on dogforums I can think of. Cause that's effectively just a bed with a roof. Also, thanks for sharing in such an elaborate post! It's nice to read and learn about how things are done in countries across the world.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

I used it during puppy hood and I only very rarely use it now. If we were traveling with him I would take the crate to leave him in if we had to. If he were injured and couldn't be running around like a maniac I would use it. I also have used it on very exciting occasions when I want him to take a time out and just have a nap (Thanksgiving!! with all the people over and craziness plus I have 1 relative who is terrified of large dogs so I make sure she doesn't even have to see my terrifying cuddler). In the car I have a seatbelt but if I had a larger vehicle I would use a crate.

That said, there are some dogs who are kept in crates at all times and it is disgusting. Around the block from my house is a Mastiff who is kept in a crate in the garage. He is walked half way up the block and back twice a day and otherwise is in the crate at all times. I know this because in the summer they leave the garage door open- I have never gone by their house and seem him not in the crate or on one of his short walks.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wubba said:


> Heeey, would ya look at that! You learn something new every day! Thank you! Shall add one now.


Polls up, awesome! You're welcome.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

I clicked other, because, the main purpose for mine was medical.

I have never owned a crate before I received my germans shepherd. I did buy it for her when I thought I would be needing it to restrain her for her heart worm treatments. I used it some during the course of that. She like it, but I think it's because I did buy a pretty nice pricy dog pillow, and that was her favorite dog bed. Also I bought one of the largest crates I could, just incase I ever need to put a Great Pyrenees in it for some reason. So she has plenty of room to get up, turn around etc. Since she was an older girl, she was already house trained, more or less, and she was really good about not having an accident in her crate. I think I used it about three months... oh... maybe four. Now it sits in my office collecting dust.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Alexandria610 said:


> ....When it comes to 'lazy' people, however, I honestly don't think they could stand to crate a dog, unless it was previously crate trained. Having crate trained two dogs, I know how annoying and patience-trying it can be to train the dogs to stay quietly in the crate. I think someone that's lazy would most likely just toss the dog outside and leave them out there 24/7. But that's just my take on it.
> 
> 
> > I think you're exactly right. Lazy people would let them roam, pee in the house, chew things up, scream at them for their infractions and eventually maybe toss 'em outside.
> ...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I have NEVER used a crate for my dogs, and I don't own a crate. By the time my german shepherd was 10 months old or so, he could be trusted anywhere in the house and I had trained him not go get into anything he shouldn't even when I am not home for hours. My lab is also trained to roam free. They sleep where they want and they don't even know what a crate is.
> 
> I think this thread is very interesting. Consider using the thread tools and adding a poll to this thread to give a better idea of just how many people are using crates for their dogs.


I'd like to clarify this so nobody thinks that I have puppies running around peeing and pooping on my carpet. When my dogs are small puppies and in the housebreaking process-when I am not home to watch them and run them out every hour to relieve themselves, I confine them to a small room in my lower level that has a hard floor when I can't be home. But as soon as they are housebroken and trusted, then they are allowed to stay loose in the house.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I've had some dogs that had to be crated when they couldn't be watched and some that did fine never needing a crate. Its a tool like anything else and can be good or bad. 

Currently I use the crate for when I am not home.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It's interesting that on the other thread I linked there were a lot of people who crated 8 to 12 hours duringthe day while they worked and then crated at night for sleep.
I believe they are good for puppies , transportation etc... I don't think they should become a home for many hours of use.
Some said it was no big deal because all the dogs did was sleep all day. Hello, what else would they do in a crate.


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## k_sep (Jun 21, 2011)

I've never done crate training and I briefly considered doing it with my newest dog Luna, but ultimately decided against it. When I'm gone, or at work, she goes in the backyard. There's plenty of shade and water set up for her, or she can freely run if she'd like. When I'm home, she's inside with me. At night, she's confined to my bedroom. I have a small gate blocking off the electrical from her (she's still young--only about 5 1/2 months). When she was really young she was gated off on hard wood floor. She wasn't hard to potty train without the crate, but I definitely never thought that crating was a bad thing. Lots of my friends use crate training and it works wonders for their dog. I'll probably try it in the future if I end up getting another puppy.


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

Five females here in Florida, well actually _six_ including me:wild:hahaha, who live together in our home: three White Shepherds (one has a bit of Siberian Husky in, at least, her left eye), one Chihuahua, and one 13 years old cat.

Although we do use a dual-door baby-gate for the cat so that she can have her choice of privacy during the daytime......all of us sleep together at night. None are crated but have gone into a crate, at one time or another, as the need came with no issue. We do not crate the big girls, pretty close to nearly never ever, even during young puppyhood. House training and vehicle training was fairly easy for us, luckily. Btw, we're not against crates, so no one think that. The only couple of times we felt _we had_ to crate was for the cat, every time, when taking her to the vet, and then also when GM began taking the Chihuahua to work, with the big girls, so that she could ease into the routines there; after the first couple of times, she earned trustworthiness.

We consider ourselves very lucky on how the girls seem to catch-on so quickly...seems that way.....and we're blessed that there is a true affinity for one another and so far for others too, animal and human, outside of us. GM and I are very very fortunate and work hard to ensure it.

Not that everything is perfect! No, no, no. lol. We have plenty of work ahead of us and just gots it pretty good and a whole lots crazy.:wub:


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

:thumbup:



Jack's Dad said:


> It's interesting that on the other thread I linked there were a lot of people who crated 8 to 12 hours duringthe day while they worked and then crated at night for sleep.
> I believe they are good for puppies , transportation etc... I don't think they should become a home for many hours of use.
> Some said it was no big deal because all the dogs did was sleep all day. Hello, what else would they do in a crate.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I use crates for new/young dogs before they have proved to be trustworthy in the house, and for house training. 
ETA: I have also used a crate for a dog recovering after surgery, and I think ALL dogs should be trained to be comfortable in a crate for that reason...you never know when they may need to be calm in a crate for medical reasons.

I use a strength-rated dog seatbelt in the car, not a crate. I have heard of too many cases of crates bending open or breaking in an accident so I won't use them in the car.


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## AuberryShortcake (Mar 9, 2010)

I crate Gypsy while I am at work or at the store because she has seperation anxiety and needs to be crated for her own protection, but I don't crate her at night or anytime I am at home, unless I have a service worker at the house for some reason. Star is trustworthy out of the crate, so I let her have the freedom of the house, unless a service worker is here and then I crate her.

I also use the crates when camping, as secure containment is very necessary at the camps.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

this is the 1st dog i crated and it worked out fine.
my dogs crate was in the livingroom. he cried the
first 3 nights and after that all was quiet. my dog was crated
at night, when we went out and whenever we couldn't watch
him. my neighbor came in every 2 hours to let our dog
out of his crate. at some point my dog would go to his
crate with a treat, toy or to nap. i use to think i don't
want my puppy-wuppy in a crate. once i used the crate
it became my dog and i best friend.


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

I care less about what you do to manage your dog when you're away, and more about what you do to fulfill his needs when you're together. I see nothing wrong with crating your dog during the day, if you provide high-quality training, exercise (mental and physical) and engagement the rest of the time. To me, that's preferable to spending all day with your dog, but only providing minimal training and exercise over the course of the day. Above a certain threshold, it becomes about quality over quantity. 

We plan to crate the puppy whenever we're away. Not sure about bedtime yet. The bf works from home most days, and I have a reasonable work schedule so the pup will not be alone that much. Even so, we'll use an xpen or tether the pup to one of us when we're home. Our puppy will have to learn that it's not OK to run wild around the apartment. As he matures, we'll loosen up, but we won't let the dog have run of apartment until we're 100 percent sure he's ready. That could take a year, two years, I just don't know yet. We'll use the crate as a tool, but even more important will be the training and exercise we provide outside of the crate to raise a happy and balanced dog.


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## stolibaby (Mar 6, 2011)

I used the crate as my boy was a crazy landshark and ate EVERYTHING he could when out and not supervised so he needed it for safety as well as my sanity lol. We slowly built up time and now he is let out freely since he earned the privilege and I can trust him. However I do know that Stoli does love his crate as my roommates have told me multiple times taht when they are home and he is out he will go into his crate in my room and take a nap even though he has the option to be out. I have come home and found him in there as well it may be due to the fact he has had this crate since he was about 5 months old (I bought a huge one after he outgrew his first one) and he has made it his special place. So these days we keep the door open and Stoli goes in ad lib....


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> It's interesting that on the other thread I linked there were a lot of people who crated 8 to 12 hours duringthe day while they worked and then crated at night for sleep.
> I believe they are good for puppies , transportation etc... I don't think they should become a home for many hours of use.
> Some said it was no big deal because all the dogs did was sleep all day. Hello, what else would they do in a crate.


What do they do outside the crate? Read the paper? Watch TV?
Just being a devil's advocate here.
I only used a crate for the first few months until pup was trustworthy and for her and our sanity. I kept it for the rare occasion that she needs to be out of the way due to traffic in and out. She likes to lay on top of it, we put a dog mattress on top covered with a tarp and she loves it 'up' there. She goes inside on her own in the winter, it's her cave(the tarp covers the sides).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Did not reply to the poll because I have done all those things and you can only check one. I think they can be both.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

First let me say my dogs are crate trained as customary with SchH. Second, I am retired, so I am fortunate to be able to spend most of every day with my dogs, and they go everywhere with me. Third, both of my girls sleep where they want at night....and I am proud that Indy has been doing this since nine months...prior to maturing enough to be trusted, she slept in the crate next to my bed at night.

Having established that perspective, I would like to make a couple of observations;

1.) This is too easy a subject to take the high moral ground such that we make ourselves feel better as dog owners at the expense of folks who love their dogs just as much as non-craters, but due to life demands, must crate their dogs while they work.

2.) I find it interesting that some of the most zealous posts against crating come from folks who own low drive GSD couch potatos that are more akin to a Collie's temperament than a real GSD. I would love to give this type of poster a high drive land shark of a working line pup and see how their views evolve regarding the crate as a tool.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there is a happy medium. 

Personally I believe EVERY dog should be crate trained so that in cases of emergency the dog is comfortable and accustomed to it. That doesn't mean because a dog is crate trained the dog is always in a crate 24/7.

I realize that there is a big cultural difference in how dogs are kept and raised. When I watch the UK shows like It's Me or the Dog, many times I see dogs that are extremely destructive, pooping and peeing all over the house, the owners going crazy and wonder why they don't just use a crate to re-train the dog not to do those things? And it doesn't mean the dog will be in the crate all day forever. All my dogs start in crates, not because I am lazy but because it is guaranteed safety AND my dogs need to earn freedom and privilege around the house. Maybe that is why the dogs on these shows are so badly behaved, they run the show, not the owner.

Another cultural difference I see is that I think many if not most dog owners in the USA have more space available whereas when I see dog owners in the UK they have small "gardens" that IMO are not suitable for proper exercise and training, so they have to make much more of an effort to get their dog out for exercise and training (but seem to be rewarded with much more "dog friendly" attitudes about running dogs off leash). In the USA people often have huge yards and property so all we have to do is open the back door and we can let our dogs run wild or play fetch. If I lived in a place where I did not have proper space for a large breed dog I would be more concern with the dog also being crated a lot of the time. 

Also I do not see crating as the lazy way out, on the contrary it is hard work properly crate training a dog to be calm in a crate and actually enjoy it as his den and his space. The lazy way out is to let the dog crap all over the house or just toss it out in the yard all day.

To me the crate is a tool used for management, safety, and emergency but should be viewed by the dog as his den, not a jail or place of punishment.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I used a crate for a puppy for house breaking and for times I could not supervise. I also have two cats, one of which will more than likely never become comfortable around the dog. Dog as acted at night to allow the cats free access to their food on the main level of my house. My dog is not permitted upstairs due to the cats "safe" area. 

For some time now we have not been closing the crate door at night and have not been crating when we leave the house. I work from home so she has been free during the day since she was six months old and could be trusted. 

My husband wants me to get rid of the crate as he wants the space back, but I don't want to. Dakota will go to her crate on her own for naps, even though she has two other beds to select plus all the floor space. She likes her crate. 

I also want to keep it available for company. Not everyone is comfortable around a GSD. Putting her in a crate so I can enjoy my guests without having to be concerned about their comfort level is important to me. Plus is we have children visitors it is best for all that she is crated even though she loves kids. I don't want any misunderstandings. 

A crate is not a bad thing when used in a positive environment.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm not sure how it's viewed as a bad thing. My dog loves her crate. When she's tired, she'll take whatever toy she's currently with and take it back with her. 

It's also a temporary thing in terms of actually keeping your dog in a crate when it's young and needs supervision. Fact is, you can't just harness the dog to you 24-7. Try doing that at night when you sleep. 

It's the first time I've used the crate to housebreak a dog and it's worked very well. I've had maybe 6-7 accidents ever in the house of which 90% of them were my fault that I couldn't get her outside quick enough.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lucy Dog said:


> If used correctly and not abused, a crate is one of the best training tools out there. Maybe the best.


I agree!

I think the problem is that, as humans, most of us humanize our dogs/puppies and feel so bad putting our 'babies' in a cage (oh cruel world! :wild: )

Rather than realizing that a crate, for our pups (when used properly) are a comforting and wonderful DEN that it's natural for our pets to love! 

Such a useful tool to TEACH our pups, save our home from damage, save our pups from eating/swallowing unsafe items, allow us to TAKE OUR DOGS WITH US rather than having to leave them at home.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Molly (almost 2 years) is the first dog I have ever crate trained. I had never heard of such a thing before with my previous dogs. I crate her in the car and also when we were attending agility classes - time out for her.

I will always use a crate for any future dogs.

My Mother In Laws dog (not a GSD) was just bitten by a paralysis tick last week (potentially fatal) and after her stay in the vets, she had to be kept quiet for up to two weeks. Now MIL has never used a crate even though I offered her my small one, and because this dog is hyperactive she had to spend an extra day at the vets - sedated. I think this would have been a great use for a crate.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I think there is a happy medium.
> 
> Also I do not see crating as the lazy way out, on the contrary it is hard work properly crate training a dog to be calm in a crate and actually enjoy it as his den and his space. The lazy way out is to let the dog crap all over the house or just toss it out in the yard all day.



Training a dog without a crate is very hard work. I had to take my puppy out every 1/2 hour to every hour. He only had a couple accidents on my carpet that I cleaned up immediately. It was exhausting to run him out, but he was housebroken very, very quickly thanks to me and my hubby's hard work, and my dogs intelligence. We even got up 3 times a night to take him out. 

I don't know where people get the idea that a dog that isn't crate trained is running around crapping all over the house, what a disgusting, ridiculous statement. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to say that people with crates leave their puppy in the crate laying on feces and urine all day. I don't believe that people would do that, so don't make ridiculous assumptions about people who don't use crates.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

bianca said:


> My Mother In Laws dog (not a GSD) was just bitten by a paralysis tick last week (potentially fatal) and after her stay in the vets, she had to be kept quiet for up to two weeks. Now MIL has never used a crate even though I offered her my small one, *and because this dog is hyperactive she had to spend an extra day at the vets - sedated. I think this would have been a great use for a crate*.


EXACTLY!

Not only is this poor dog sick ANYWAYS....it had to be sedated unnecessarily (because if it had been crate trained this wouldn't have been needed) PLUS stay extra at the vets (which would have WAY stressed my dogs) PLUS end up in a crate anyways but since not 'trained' would have been adding even more STRESS!!!!!

Failing to crate train, for the dogs sake, is NOT doing them a favor in the end.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> When my dogs are small puppies and in the housebreaking process-when I am not home to watch them and run them out every hour to relieve themselves, I confine them to a small room in my lower level that has a hard floor when I can't be home. .


Never had a drywall-eater, huh?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Never had a drywall-eater, huh?


lol, no-I have been lucky I guess.

I am about to head out, I took my dogs on a nice long walk and they are happily dozing in the living room-laying on the carpet.

I don't care if people want to use crates for their dogs, as long as the dogs aren't confined in one for many hours. I prefer to leave my dogs loose. They behave, and so this works for us.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I don't care if people want to use crates for their dogs, as long as the dogs aren't confined in one for many hours. I prefer to leave my dogs loose. They behave, and so this works for us.


Me too. As soon as a dog is able to be trusted out at night, I like to leave him out at night. As soon as he can be trusted loose during the day, I leave him out during the day. With Rocky and Kopper both of those things happened around six months old. Cash was left out of the crate about 3 days after I brought him home from the shelter. He was a year old. 

However, my foster dogs are always crated for their safety and the safety of my own dogs. I believe dogs should be trained to be safe and calm in a crate for medical reasons, travelling, grooming, etc like others have said. 


In rescue, I've made every mistake at least once and I've learned the hard way that to me, crating is the best way. I tried leaving them in the yard-- they dig out of the fence, or dig up the internet cable, or eat the side of the house. I've tried leaving them in the laundry room-- they eat the drywall. I've tried tethering to my bed at night-- I had one determined little puppy chew through the leash and go mess in the corner. Over a fairly large (almost 30 dogs) sample group, I've had the most success with crates.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

I used the crate for potty training my first GSD, who I had since she was a puppy. She was also crated when we weren't around until about a year old, when she proved herself trustworthy and was allowed free roam of the downstairs. She's never destroyed anything or been obnoxious at night. She still loves the crate.

We got Sam this year from the humane society,he's about 2 probably and a very different dog than Kaylee. He has a very high prey drive, so he is crated all evening when the cats are loose. He does not want to play with the cats. He wants to hurt them. For their safety, he will be crated when they are loose for his entire life (or as long as the cats are alive). He also loves the crate, and sleeps peacefully. 

I don't crate in the car because I have a tiny Saturn coupe and nothing would fit in there!


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I use the crate for my shepherd when we're not home. I have two dogs and I'm not fond of the idea of leaving two dogs regardless of age, sex, breed, size, or how long they've known each other loose together unsupervised. too many things that can go wrong. could my dogs be loose together alone? sure. my shepherd got out of his crate somehow (we think the door wasn't locked) and was loose with my other dog for who knows how long and nothing was disturbed in the house or on my other dog. with that being said, my shepherd loves his crate he goes in it all the time on his own to go lay down. we don't crate him at night anymore except for the rare occasion he usually sleeps with me. I believe crate training can be a good thing, I take both my dogs to my shop to be groomed once a week and my shepherd willihly goes into the crate and is quiet for the whole day while my other dog is not fond of crates will go in one but will cry the entire time.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

I work from home, so really have no need for crate training - yet, Eva is crate-trained and so is Tory. 

Since they are both puppies (13 months and 7 months) they NEED - ok, I need  - them to have time out during the day where they are settled down. Neither dog is crated overnight, and they probably spend about a total of 3 hours in the crates during the day. When we go out, they are both in the crates. 

It appears both are happy there - it's the only place they get frozen marrow bones - and it's where they both eat their meals. 

As I am not a perfect housekeeper, I feel they are safer in their crates when we're gone. 

Both now have large crates where they can stand up and fully lie down with room to spare.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Raven is loose and was as soon as it was safe for her to be. I think it was around a year old when she had free run during the day. Nightime was earlier.

Kaiser is still crated when I am gone and I don't see that changing any time soon. He does sleep loose in my bedroom but isn't allowed access to downstairs. He occasionally gets left out if he is dead tired and even then, not for long. It's for his own safety and the safety of my belongings. He's torn apart my couch trying to get his ball out from under it and will eat anything he can get to. That said, he is in a very large crate (Great Dane sized) even though he's a smaller dog. We can both get in there and be comfortable so he has room to stretch out.

Most fosters are crated the whole time they are here. My last male foster was very trustworthy and he was very big so I felt bad leaving him in a 48" crate while Kaiser was in the monster one; so he was gated in the hallway away from Raven and there was nothing that he could get into.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Training a dog without a crate is very hard work. I had to take my puppy out every 1/2 hour to every hour. He only had a couple accidents on my carpet that I cleaned up immediately. It was exhausting to run him out, but he was housebroken very, very quickly thanks to me and my hubby's hard work, and my dogs intelligence. We even got up 3 times a night to take him out.
> 
> I don't know where people get the idea that a dog that isn't crate trained is running around crapping all over the house, what a disgusting, ridiculous statement. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to say that people with crates leave their puppy in the crate laying on feces and urine all day. I don't believe that people would do that, so don't make ridiculous assumptions about people who don't use crates.


I was talking about the people on that show. Have you seen it? I've seen piles of poop and puddles of urine. She often does a swab of the countertop and they find stuff like e. coli bacteria. I'm saying if THOSE people have that much trouble with their dogs using their house as a toilet, why not use a crate to help re-train them? I believe Stillwell was against crates but has changed because now I see her using them and suggesting them.

*Everyone* has to let their puppies out to housetrain them. Crate or not a puppy can only hold it for so long. I let mine out every 15 minutes when they are awake, every few hours when not (or if they whine like they have to go out). Housetraining is housetraining.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I don't care if people want to use crates for their dogs, as long as the dogs aren't confined in one for many hours. I prefer to leave my dogs loose. They behave, and so this works for us.


I agree with this.

It's not an either or question. Crates are great.
I just don't think they should be called home. 

W. Oliver. There was a time when I lived where I didn't have space, rented or lived in an apt. I did not own a GSD for those reasons at that time. 

Talk about moral high ground. People will crate their dogs 8 to 12 hours a day while at work and crate them while they sleep. I'm not going to apologize because I don't think a high energy, intelligent, large dog should not spend a most of its life in a crate. The same people who would leave their dog crated for long periods of time would be appalled at a dog staked out somewhere.

PaddyD. My dog is kenneled when not able to just go in and out at will. He sleeps a lot but he at least gets a lot of mental stimulation from all the goings on outside. Birds, squirrels, people walking by, etc... He doesn't get a lot of exercise in a kennel but a lot more than being curled up in a crate.
I would feel the same about labs or any large energetic dog.
It will not kill outdoor dogs to be outdoors more.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I do think they are the lazy way out for SOME people. My last 2 dogs were NEVER crated. I had no issues with house breaking either one and I have NEVER had anything in the house destroyed. I will say that Siren used an X-pen for a while as a place to keep her (and my old dogs) safe. Diva used a create as a baby puppy. But only until she was about 4 months old. And all her life, if she saw an open crate, she would go in it on her own.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> The same people who would leave their dog crated for long periods of time would be appalled at a dog staked out somewhere.


Would they? My main issue with staking out a dog is the dog's safety. My "escape artist" dog is often staked out when I'm home with him or when we go to other people's houses and they don't have secure yards. If he wants to be out in the yard for 4 hours straight while I'm home, that's perfectly fine with me. Some of my dogs love being outdoors. My yard and tie-out is secure enough where I'm comfortable doing that while I'm home to check in on them. When I'm not around - no way. They could be poisoned, stolen...who knows.

Personally I've got nothing against crates, gates, ex-pens, free reign, stakes/tie-outs, secure yards, and kennels. I have and will continue to use them all depending on the dog and the circumstance. My number #1 priority is the safety of the dog. My favorite setup if my dogs are home alone is baby-gating the house so each dog has his own section of the house with either dog bedding or furniture for comfort and access to water.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I can't really make an argument about people's fears. We all have them.

Could something happen to our dogs in a yard or kennel ? Yes. 

Could children have some horrible thing happen when you send them off to school? Yes.

Could we be killed in a car accident today? Yes

Could indoor crated dogs be killed in a house fire? Yes

Life is a big gamble. I will risk letting a dog who is built for police work, herding, schutzhund, tracking, narcotics, SAR take a chance with life and not be cooped up to make me feel more secure.


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

Well, it definitely does become a habit for the dog to just get into their crate when they know I'm off to work. I'd rather it be a habit for them to stay in a crate rather than them getting into the habit of demolishing our house. I do understand that you would have to really really train them not to but the crate would be more proactive. 

Prevent bad habits from occurring rather than correcting it after it occurred. 

I do understand that leaving a dog in the crate for 8 hours a day is bad for the dog. In my case, I come home for lunch every day because I hate the thought that she is stuck with her poo. So she gets her hours in the crate halved. 

All in all, A responsible owner knows their dog the best and the dog know's it's owner best. They all are accustomed to each other's life style and adjusts theirs to meet the others.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

The only reason we still crate the boys when we aren't home is for safety sake. They haven't fought now in almost a year, but Max is still a knucklehead and capable of starting something that Patton would love to finish. Otherwise they run free. Max still goes into his crate on his own to chill regularly and Patton will once in a while. At night Max and Clover sleep in our room. Patton would be allowed to but he always wants out 5 minutes after you settle into bed. Once the last of the skin kids is out, we'll just leave the door open and let them sleep wherever they want.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I think all dogs are different. Some dog owners need crates and some don't. Both my dogs get exercised both mentally and physically. Bunny was good being left uncrated at about 1.5 years old. Jazz just turned 2 years and still needs to be crated. Any tool can obviously be abused but if used correctly I think crates are a good option for those dogs that require it.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

GSDkid said:


> All in all, A responsible owner knows their dog the best and the dog know's it's owner best. They all are accustomed to each other's life style and adjusts theirs to meet the others.


 
I really like this response. This thread shouldn't have questioned whether you believed crates to be a good or bad thing but rather if you use a crate, how/when/how long do you use it and why?

There are so many different views on what is 'right' and 'wrong' regarding free-reign dogs, dogs outside, dogs in kennels, dogs in crates, barriers in the house for dogs, etc. for each person, and to try and pin point a black and white answer for 'crates are good' or 'crates are bad' is not really productive. It's like trying to argue about political or religious views. We all have different views and different reasons for these views, and no one person is right, except in our own mind.

That's just how I see it. I'm a strong believer in keeping my dog safe from certain things, so it may cause other things that are out of my control (ie. a crated dog not being able to escape during a house fire or natural disaster). As long as my dog isn't ingesting things that may kill it or hurt it, then I am content to crate my dog. I have to accept that there are things out of my hands, such as the aforementioned, that could occur - but I have no control of that and have to try and prevent what I DO have control over.

These are simply my views. I do not think that others with my views are WRONG, I just don't agree - it's that simple. I will not shun them for their way of thinking, however, as that is their situation, their lives, their dogs, and what is best for them.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I was talking about the people on that show. Have you seen it? I've seen piles of poop and puddles of urine. She often does a swab of the countertop and they find stuff like e. coli bacteria. I'm saying if THOSE people have that much trouble with their dogs using their house as a toilet, why not use a crate to help re-train them? I believe Stillwell was against crates but has changed because now I see her using them and suggesting them.


What show? I don't watch much tv, but this show sounds interesting.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The OP is from another country and is asking about the U.S. love affair with crates and the length of time spent in them. 

As far as I can tell it is not about crates being good or bad.

I am older than a lot of people on the forum and the OP is right that crates used to the extent they are now, is relatively new. Last 20 or so years. 

All the dogs I raised prior to my present one were raised, housebroken, trained, and traveled without the use of a crate. It wasn't just my dogs but almost everyone else's.
I think crates are a valuable tool but IMO they should be a tool not a way of life.

In the U.S. we have been well marketed to where we believe if we want something we should have it.

I live in Calif. where the climate is fairly mild most of the year and it is not difficult to get exercise for your dogs. Their being outside is less of a problem.

When I hear of people owning a GSD and living in an apt. in Michigan or somewhere with lots of severe weather in the winter it makes me wonder. 
Its dark when you go to work, dark and very cold when you get home. The dog has been crated all day, you need to have dinner and so on.
When and where does the dog get any exercise or mental stimulation?
If you have a home at least you can let them run around for awhile outside. 

I just don't think everone's situation is such that they should own large, high energy dogs of any kind.
There are breeds well suited to apts, or small houses with no yard.
As I said before when I was younger ther were places I lived where I just couldn't have what I may have wanted.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

> For example, some people have their dog sleep in the crate at night. That's for, let's say, 7 hours. Then they put the dog in a crate while they're at work. To be nice we'll say it's a 8 hour workday including travel time. This is 15 hours a day inside the crate for a dog, and THAT I think is wrong.


I don't see the big deal with a dog being in the crate while its owner is at work or when sleeping because... well, the dog is usually sleeping at those times. As long as they are comfortable and are able to stretch out, it is a safe place for them to do what they would likely being doing anyway... nothing. You aren't preventing them from doing anything physically or mentally stimulation while in the crate at these times because you aren't there to engage them anyway. And whatever they are going to do in your house to entertain themselves, you probably won't like.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> I don't see the big deal with a dog being in the crate while its owner is at work or when sleeping because... well, the dog is usually sleeping at those times. As long as they are comfortable and are able to stretch out, it is a safe place for them to do what they would likely being doing anyway... nothing. You aren't preventing them from doing anything physically or mentally stimulation while in the crate at these times because you aren't there to engage them anyway. And whatever they are going to do in your house to entertain themselves, you probably won't like.


I agree with you on this one. I have actually recorded each and every time Alex is out of her crate while I'm gone, just out of curiosity, and the most she has done (even during a five hour recording) is stand up and stretch, rotate around, and go back to sleep. No, that's not true. Once she got on the couch and looked out the window, for a span of about four minutes, then went back to sleep.

I'm not sure about others' dogs and if they are constantly needing stimulation or exercise, but my dog is just over a year by maybe a month, and has a lot of energy. But when I'm not there, she does nothing (so far) but sleep. I don't worry as much about putting her in the crate when I see this. Granted, I haven't ever done anything longer than 5 hours recording her, but, I can assume that there wouldn't be much other activity other than chewing a toy or a piece of furniture.

But again, that's just my point of view, and my particular dog. Yours may be different.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

when i got sibi at 14 months i immediately bought a crate--since i have a chihuahua and really didn't know sib at all--except that she came from a very dark and desperate place...but now after 9 months she is free to roam the house --day and night...for awhile-about 1 week- i crated her while i worked--but again she has proven herself trustworthy...the only time i use the crate now is when i vacuum--she goes nuts! and when we go on vacation--in case i want to leave her and go out.. my chihuahua also has a crate which she goes into often--i think to get away from sib but also because she used to be in the crate while i worked---you know how some little dogs tend to piddle when excited...i don't know if she goes in there while i work now or not...point is--i think a crate is a great convenience for many reasons--


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

I have had Nero since he was 9weeks old, we have never owned a crate, and I don't think I would ever use one. Luckily Nero was a rather good puppy, he wasn't destructive so I wouldn't have felt the need for one. I think it probably depends on the pup.

But I think if you haven't got time for a puppy and you are going to leave it crated while you are out at work for several hours then maybe the person should think about keeping a hamster or goldfish! I wouldn't have got Nero if I knew I was going to be out or he was going to be left alone for hours on end. I never left him for more than twenty minuets to be honest, Now he is older I can go out for a couple of hours without him, even though I hate doing it.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I only use the crate at night and if I am going to leave the house for more than 15 minutes.

Stella is 8 months and is very good, but sometimes she gets very playful around the cats and I don't want to freak them out while she is not being watched. She would never hurt them intentionally, but the cats can get annoyed by her sometimes.

She is also in the crate right now because the girl who comes to clean every now and then owns Stella's sibling and Stella gets extremely excited to see her and wants to rush up to her. The girl is pregnant and I don't want Stella to knock her down or anything, so she is crated while she is here since I can't watch her constantly while they are cleaning.

I work out of my home, so she is free to sleep wherever she wants all day....which is usually my bed, one of the kids beds, or the couch.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Everyone will justify their situation, so it's a somewhat useless argument.

I just don't see how we could take these dogs much farther away from their roots.
GSD's working sheep outside all day and night long.
GSD's in war under all weather conditions and extreme distress and doing it well.
GSD's on the farm in all weather guarding and part of all farm activities.
GSD's as police dog working under all conditions.
GSD's as SAR dogs, or narcotics dogs.
GSD's in many other activities like the above.
A minority of GSD's still do the work listed above. Most are pets.
GSD's as family companions. Large yards and part of many family activities. 1940's and 50's. Mom home.
GSD's in small yards. Left home while family members at work.
GSD's in apts. Family gone all day.
GSD's in apt. in crate all day. Family gone all day.

What's next?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Everyone will justify their situation, so it's a somewhat useless argument.
> 
> I just don't see how we could take these dogs much farther away from their roots.
> GSD's working sheep outside all day and night long.
> ...


wow, when you put it like that-it is definitely thought provoking.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> I am older than a lot of people on the forum and the OP is right that crates used to the extent they are now, is relatively new. Last 20 or so years.


How about working dogs? I have several friends and some family members with dogs and I would say that using crates is rare among those that have pets but those that have working type dogs have always used small kennels and crates or "dog boxes". For example my uncle's hunting dog has only been inside once (I know because I took her inside and she wouldn't walk on the linoleum, never seen a hard shiny floor like that before). After decades of using "dog boxes" he built a kennel outside the garage of his cabin. If he's not there the dog is still kept in the dog box. I know in other countries crates are more rare than here but is that the same for working dogs there too? Are they house pets or are they kept outside or kenneled outside? Just curious. When I go to Schutzhund club I am *required* to crate my dog unless it's his turn. Is that the same in Europe or no?

My pet dog is free in the house, no kennel or crate indoors or out, but my working dogs are free only when I'm around and when I'm not there are various levels of containment depending on the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> What show? I don't watch much tv, but this show sounds interesting.


It's Me Or The Dog. There are UK and USA versions.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It's Me Or The Dog. There are UK and USA versions.


Thanks. I will make sure to watch that.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje: 

All my comments have been directed to the vast majority of GSD owners, who own them as family companions. You are abslutely correct with regard to crates or enclosures for working or show dogs. They go way back for those activities.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I need to read the responses posted so far, but for my dogs, we use the crate at night time when we are asleep and cannot watch them. We feel like this time gives our cats free range of the rest of the house and they like to sleep on the dogs beds. The crates are in the bedroom with us.

The only other times we use the crates (now that the puppies are out of the potty training stage) is when we have a medical issue and one of our dogs has to be confined to recover from a surgery, or when we leave the house and let the dogs stay home. We prefer them to be crated when we are not home. We are rarely not home, since I do not work and my husband works from home, and we have little or no social life.  plus if we do go somewhere, we always try to bring the pups along if at all possible.

I do think it is easy to turn a crate into a bad thing for lazy people. It is not an alternative to proper training.


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## Wubba (Jun 4, 2011)

Wow, been away all day and did not expect to come home to this many replies! First of all I want to say thank you to everyone who has replied, I am very happy to see that this may has taken the time to share their opinions and to help educate me further in this matter!



chelle said:


> I don't know what your foreign folks do to avoid the chewing and other issues... surely they have jobs to go to. What is their alternative to crating? If their "better" solution is to tie their dog out unsupervised all day, I don't think they have anything on us Americans. If their "better" solution is to allow the dog free roam and free-destruction, I don't think that's a "better" solution either! But seriously, what DO they do as the alternative to crating?


I'm sorry if I have offended you in some way, this was not my intentions. I also want to clarify that I am NOT speaking on behalf of everyone in my country, not even all the dog owners in my country, just me. You repeatedly say "us Americans" which makes it somewhat difficult for me to take the input seriously as it would indicate that you're speaking on behalf of America.

I am also not claiming that anything "we" do is better in any way shape or form. I am simply trying to learn more about the subject, and in order to get elaborate responses from people I wrote a very long input which included the opinions of some people (some of these are also my own, though not all of them), in order for the repliers to the post to have something to argument for/against or agree/disagree with. But nevertheless, thanks for responding.





Jack's Dad said:


> The OP is from another country and is asking about the U.S. love affair with crates and the length of time spent in them.
> 
> As far as I can tell it is not about crates being good or bad.


Spot on, Jack's Dad. Thank you!

And to everyone else, once again thank you for the replies! Several times its been mentioned that people use the crate for medical purposes (dog with broken leg/under medication etc.) and of course, I do agree that this is a very sensible case to use the crate. And also in the case where for example the cats well being is at risk if the dog is left alone at home with it.

Keep the replies coming, this is all very interesting to read!


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> The OP is from another country and is asking about the U.S. love affair with crates and the length of time spent in them.
> 
> As far as I can tell it is not about crates being good or bad.


I guess I should have clarified what I said. I didn't mean that the OP was asking us if crates were good or bad, I was sort of refrencing a lot of the posts here and the fact that instead of simply talking about their experiences with crates, some were indicating if they were 'good' or 'bad' and that they shouldn't focus on that, but rather what the OP was talking about. 

Does that make any sense?


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

personally, i crate anytime me and my BF cannot be home to watch the dog. we never crated at night because jasmine sleeps or just gets up everynow and then to a different spot to sleep. Id rather not have to crate, but she tends to get into things when left un attended. we have tried to let her out for small periods of time alone and she did great for a bit but then she began to tear up wooden fixtures and pull the cable cord out of the wall so it was back to the crate for her. Shes only a year and a half so she is still a puppy and cannot be trusted out alone. Only 2 days out of the week she will be in the crate for 8 hours. but when we are working she cant exercise herself and gets bored and thus tends to get into things so the crate is safe for her and our belongings


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

This is a very interesting thread. 

Personally, we haven't made it through puppyhood yet. I love using the crate when I am away at school. I can know that she is safe and I don't have to worry about what she is getting into. I would not consider someone who uses a crate for this reason to be lazy. It has everything to do with the dog's safety to me. 

When Gracie is older, we are going to phase out the crate. If she is able to behave herself without supervision...I see no reason in using it.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

We are using the crate now for at night and during the day when I have to run an errand. It sits on my husbands' side of the bed and it doubles as a nightstand. Otherwise he is out of it to go as he pleases and so I can supervise him to figure out his potty schedule. I did the same for our golden - who now occasionally sleeps in it just for the heck of it and she has free run of the house at night and when we are not home.

I did, however, have to chew out my 15 year old human daughter today. I was bringing my 17 year old to the orthodontist when she got home from school so she had to let Knuckles out and be on puppy patrol until we got home. When we got home I asked where Knuckles was... he was in the crate. I asked why. "Because he was chewing on the floor" (he was chewing on a floor tile) I told her that the crate is NOT to be used as a punishment and that she should have redirected him to one of his toys. 

Once Knuckles is potty trained and can be trusted not to eat the walls (or floors) the crate door will come off and it will become a nightstand for my husband again.


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## Washu (Apr 20, 2007)

I have 3 dogs so I put Ranger and Odin in crates when nobody is home. Dooku is the biggest and oldest so she gets free run of the house. I work from home, so they are usually only left alone a few times a week and not for more than a couple hours at a time. Odin also sleeps in his crate at night. He is fully potty trained except he isn't great at waking me if he needs to potty during the night. He is only 13 lbs and his crate is big enough for Dooku. Usually he is crated about 6 hours per night.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

No, you didn't offend me. I truly am just very curious as to what the people who you referred to did in place of crating.


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## JulieBays (Jun 26, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Never had a drywall-eater, huh?


That is the reason I bought a crate! Sasha sleeps out of her crate at night and she is fine but while I work is another matter. I have my son home on and off during the day but when Sasha decided to eat part of my wall... I used the crate. It's worked well. It's a long story but in the end, she is never crated while I'm home. She is crated while at work. My son let's her out during the day and plays and then puts her back in her crate. The problem isn't Sasha here. It's my son. He is OCD. At 17 years old, he needed structure and so did my puppy GSD. The best way was to train both that they could play and then it was time for sleep. Never mind, it's complicated. :blush:

Let me just say that I'm not against crating. It is a place that Sasha needed to get used to and I'm happy she seems to like it. I also know that she is fine in the house while I'm home. She's potty trained and I didn't need the crate for this. I needed it to protect her from over thinking. Does this make since? If she is alone too long (the only time she is in the crate), she starts trying out puzzles in her head. That's why she ate the drywall. She found a small piece of tape at the corner of my wall and started pulling. It was something to keep her mind occupied. GSD's are smarter than a lot of dogs. They will forget their toys in favor of something more interesting. That's okay. That's why I love Sasha so much. However, in this scenario, they need to be protected from themselves. Living with two OCD children has taught me something. Boredom in a crate can be a good thing. It teaches calmness. Ehh.. I'm not saying I caged my kids but, I did make them learn to be calm. That's why my 17 year old loves art so much. 

Sasha is only 5 months old and I presume that the only times I'll need the crate when she gets older is when she is ill, spayed or in competition.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I have two sets of crates for my dogs. 

I have wire crates in the house. They can sleep in them and I use them to feed the dogs because I feed raw and it keeps the mess contained. The crates are open for free use during the night but they do have free roam. 

I use plastic crates in the truck. They ride well back there, keeps all the long hair from my two coaties contained, and the crates are light enough to move in and out of the truck when I need to. 

So in the long run, I use crates for multiple purposes. I can say, without a doubt, crates are great for containing a wet dog too!! Contains the mess till I can get them home and cleaned up/dry.

I did just acquire a minivan but believe I will still use the crates in there too, IF I let the dogs in it at all!!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I put "other" although I did use it through puppyhood and adolecence until she could be trusted around the house.
When Alice hit two she started having seizures and the last two years has been tweaking meds. When she's "loaded" she's hungry, I'd rather crate her when she's going through the hunger stage until she stables out.
Usually I don't have to use the crate, she actually likes to hang out in it with the door open. Fortunately, I have a GSD, not a GSD/Beaver cross...eating floors and walls etc.

The other reason is that old saying, "I love my country but FEAR my government"
Hurricane Katrina scared the daylights out of me with the refusal to evacuate people with their pets and the fine response time of the Feds to assist in the chaos. 
I live on the Pacific Plate, nestled between two major fault lines in CA. The San Andreas and Hayward Faults. The Hayward hasn't had major movement since the 1800s and the San Andreas is constantly moving.
So, should there be a major natural disaster I think two things. Firstly: my dogs will be less stressed out during a massive change of environment in crates that they are comfortable in and two: I will get absolutely no help for five days. 
No water, no gas, no electricity, nothing....so be prepared and try to keep my pets as comfortable as possible.
Oh, they do come in handy when you have two females and are handing out raw bones....
'Cause we all know how the girls can be.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't have crates. Never have. Not that I'm against them, just never got around to buying one.

My 3 roam free in the house. When they were pups, I would use baby gates. When I left, they would stay in the dining room.

I knew a guy that worked on the pipeline that use to carry his smaller dog with him everywhere. He had a crate for a small travel trailer he stayed in. I remember once he left his dog in the crate while he ran up to Walmart. He was in a serious car crash on his way there. It took his family 2 days to make it to the town he was in. Thankfully, the dog and owner was okay but it was pretty scary knowing that the dog didn't have any water or food during that time. I hate to think about what would have happened if the family wouldn't have made it until later.

I guess that's a story that has always stuck with me. I guess you can always look at that story another way......the dog could have been a roam free dog and got into something during that time.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Wire or 700 airline crates in the house....upstairs dogs sleep loose (9 and 10.5), Csabre has small kennel and 46' wire with 3 thick dog beds in basement - I keep my females separate at all times....When Csabre in living room, Basha is crated in LR....the dogs will often sleep in open crates as well.

Pups get kennel in basement or crate depending on age when I am not home...I rotate outside kennel/inside house/crate with everyone except the 2 older altered dogs..

Crates in the vehicle are a life saver....my crates always have water buckets in BTW...I had 2 four month old pups in crates in a Santa Fe - the crates were close to the hatch back....I got very badly rear ended....other than being tossed in the crates, and the glass from the window breaking into the crates, both pups were fine (some hesitation about getting in a crate in a vehicle for a while,but got over it fine)...if those pups had not been in crates, they would have been thrown from the vehicle I think....

Lee


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Alexandria610 said:


> When it comes to 'lazy' people, however, I honestly don't think they could stand to crate a dog, unless it was previously crate trained. Having crate trained two dogs, I know how annoying and patience-trying it can be to train the dogs to stay quietly in the crate. I think someone that's lazy would most likely just toss the dog outside and leave them out there 24/7. But that's just my take on it.



This is exactly what I was thinking!


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Crate abuse is rampant. I know since I criticized a poster here for crating a puppy 17 hours a day and I got attacked by many. Things like "well we have to work". Many posters were closed crating pups all night and while at work,at least 17 hours a day. Just awful.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

lrodptl said:


> Crate abuse is rampant. I know since I criticized a poster here for crating a puppy 17 hours a day and I got attacked by many. Things like "well we have to work". Many posters were closed crating pups all night and while at work,at least 17 hours a day. Just awful.


I'm not really sure how awful it truly is as long as the time spent out of the crate is spent giving the dog exercise and love. I'm fairly certain Sasha sleeps a lot while I'm gone, and I know she sleeps at night, so I'm not really sure why, if you have an appropriate sized crate, it would be awful. Sasha has free roam while I'm gone, but that is a fairly recent privilege, and one I wouldn't hesitate to revoke if it was in her best interest (safety and what not). Most people can't afford to replace walls, carpet, couches, etc. all the time, so if the dog can't be trusted not to destroy things I think it's better they keep it crated rather than give the dog up because it's destructive. 

Sasha is alone about 9hrs a day 3 days a week, 1 hr. a day one day, 4 hours 2 days, and not at all one day. On the days where she's home alone longer I just try to make sure I spend at least a few hours making everything all about her. I'm not perfect at it, but I try. I think as long as people who crate do the same thing there shouldn't be a problem. In my opinion a dog who's alone is a dog who's alone, crate or no crate, and they need attention when you finally do get home no matter how they spend the time you're gone.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I'm not really sure how awful it truly is as long as the time spent out of the crate is spent giving the dog exercise and love. I'm fairly certain Sasha sleeps a lot while I'm gone, and I know she sleeps at night, so I'm not really sure why, if you have an appropriate sized crate, it would be awful. Sasha has free roam while I'm gone, but that is a fairly recent privilege, and one I wouldn't hesitate to revoke if it was in her best interest (safety and what not). Most people can't afford to replace walls, carpet, couches, etc. all the time, so if the dog can't be trusted not to destroy things I think it's better they keep it crated rather than give the dog up because it's destructive.
> 
> Sasha is alone about 9hrs a day 3 days a week, 1 hr. a day one day, 4 hours 2 days, and not at all one day. On the days where she's home alone longer I just try to make sure I spend at least a few hours making everything all about her. I'm not perfect at it, but I try. I think as long as people who crate do the same thing there shouldn't be a problem. In my opinion a dog who's alone is a dog who's alone, crate or no crate, and they need attention when you finally do get home no matter how they spend the time you're gone.


And here we go!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

lrodptl said:


> Crate abuse is rampant. I know since I criticized a poster here for crating a puppy 17 hours a day and I got attacked by many. Things like "well we have to work". Many posters were closed crating pups all night and while at work,at least 17 hours a day. Just awful.


17 hours a day locked in a crate is a very, very sad quality of life for a puppy. People who do this to their dogs are going to defend themselves and try to justify it in many ways but it's not right, not for so many hours. Poor dogs who live this way.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Not every home for every creature is perfect. That is a given. Would you rather pups be let loose to destroy houses/furniture/electronics (risking electrouction?) and then be dumped in a shelter or just dumped? Let's use some common sense here. If everyone who had a job and slept 8 hours a night would be denied having a dog because of it - there would be many more pups killed through animal control (did anyone of you see the photo of the STACKS of dead animals posted by a shelter worker???) People work. IT is a fact of life. Dogs SLEEP much of the day and night! Personally, I set up an ex-pen or small kennel for a pup while I am away...and the downside of that is that it is harder to housebreak that way FWIW!!! When I am home, dogs are sleeping IN CRATES of their own violition. Thinking like the above 2 posters is what gives PETA a foothold - surface concern without thinking of the consequences!!! No - it is not ideal...but better that people do not have dogs so that the dogs aren't crated?????????????????????????

Lee


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

There are many ways to justify this treatment of animals, but I think it's wrong and IMO there is no justification. Did my dog ever tear anything when he was being trained without a crate? Yes, he did. Did I take him to the dog pound for it? Heck no! And guess what, he no longer breaks or get's into anything, and he hasn't since he was a year old. No excuses for locking a dog up in a crate for 17 hours-no excuses, it's horrible.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Crates are life savers.

I shudder to think what Dante could have gotten into as a pup if he hadn't been crate trained for while I was at work!

He got run of that house at about 3 (probably could have had it much sooner but he loved his cate) and even now still loves a crate.

I am at my mom's house and have his travel crate set up in the bedroom for if he gets too rambunctious (he sometimes forgets he's 7 years old and gets the zoomies and mom is 86!) and as soon as I set it up he ran right in and laid down. 

Every dog I own will be crate trained, as a single person who has to work full time if it weren't for crates I'd never have a dog


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> There are many ways to justify this treatment of animals, but I think it's wrong and IMO there is no justification. Did my dog ever tear anything when he was being trained without a crate? Yes, he did. Did I take him to the dog pound for it? Heck no! And guess what, he no longer breaks or get's into anything, and he hasn't since he was a year old. No excuses for locking a dog up in a crate for 17 hours-no excuses, it's horrible.


What if your dog had consumed something that blocked his gut?
What if your dog had chewed through a live electrical cord and been electrocuted? 

17 hours straight in a crate is abuse, neglect and horrifying but a total of 17 hours in a crate over a full day, well perhaps not, though I hope to never need to have a dog in a crate that much.

Dante was an older pup when I brought him home so he was never crated at night - just looped a leash around my wrist to his collar so if he got up I knew it and could take him out. Dante went in his crate on his own to nap and though the door was open in those cases, he was still in the crate

Next pup will be much younger and so will be crated at night in my bedroom until old enough to have the run of the bedroom - or perhaps not. I'm not sure since I've never had a puppy puppy


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## Dlilly (May 24, 2011)

My foster Beagle is crated at night and when we leave the house. I'm homeschooled, so, we are literly home everyday. She is rarely left in there during the day.

I feel bad for dogs left in crates all day.  I am worried about my foster Beagle being one of those dogs....


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I never understood why people allow their dogs to roam around the house and think of it as a good thing compared to a crate. What do you expect the dogs to do roaming around the house that they can't do in a crate when you're not home? They aren't going to entertain or exercise themselves unless they're causing trouble. They're pretty much going to sleep the entire time no matter where they are - crate or not.

Do all dogs need to be crated when their owners are not home? Obviously, no. Leaving a dog alone for most of it's life outside of a crate is just as bad as leaving them in a crate for those long periods.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> There are many ways to justify this treatment of animals, but I think it's wrong and IMO there is no justification. Did my dog ever tear anything when he was being trained without a crate? Yes, he did. Did I take him to the dog pound for it? Heck no! And guess what, he no longer breaks or get's into anything, and he hasn't since he was a year old. No excuses for locking a dog up in a crate for 17 hours-no excuses, it's horrible.


Perhaps you should give up your dog since dogs suffer all sorts of indignities and join PETA - that is the kind of agenda and closed mind thinking that fuels the breedbans and will result in freedom to have pets at all in this country,. Hey - just take your newborn or toddler and turn it loose in the house and leave for work...same thing.

Lee


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lucy Dog said:


> I never understood why people allow their dogs to roam around the house and think of it as a good thing compared to a crate. What do you expect the dogs to do roaming around the house that they can't do in a crate when you're not?


Walk around. Stretch. Look out the window. Personally I'd rather be confined to my house than confined to my bathtub. Could I survive being stuck in a bathtub for 18 hours a day? Sure. Is it ideal? Nope.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Barb E said:


> What if your dog had consumed something that blocked his gut?
> What if your dog had chewed through a live electrical cord and been electrocuted?


I am a mother of 3 children, childproof-puppyproof same thing. Never had a problem with any of these things happening. There are ways of preventing it.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I never understood why people allow their dogs to roam around the house and think of it as a good thing compared to a crate. What do you expect the dogs to do roaming around the house that they can't do in a crate when you're not home? They aren't going to entertain or exercise themselves unless they're causing trouble. They're pretty much going to sleep the entire time no matter where they are - crate or not.


My dog loves to watch everything going on outside, he watches me back out of the driveway as I leave-and he is there watching when I get back. Believe me it is much more entertaining than sleeping in the confinement of a crate all day, if he wants to nap he does so stretched out on the sofa.That's the difference.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> Walk around. Stretch. Look out the window. Personally I'd rather be confined to my house than confined to my bathtub. Could I survive being stuck in a bathtub for 18 hours a day? Sure. Is it ideal? Nope.


If we're talking about 18 hours a day... i don't think either are right. Could you survive 18 hours a day locked in a room with no tv, internet, or human interaction every single day? If we're talking about 5 or 6 hours at a time than they're most likely just going to sleep. 

And look out the window? How long is that going to keep a dog entertained... a couple minutes? If you want a dog to look outdoors, put the crate near a window. Get a crate big enough for the dog to stretch if needed... i know the one i have is big enough for it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I crate, and I think crates can be a good thing, but I think they're easy to abuse without realizing it. 

A neighbor has a 9-week old Lab puppy and she's having to go back to work, so I'll be dropping by her house once a day to let him out for the foreseeable future.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Perhaps you should give up your dog since dogs suffer all sorts of indignities and join PETA - that is the kind of agenda and closed mind thinking that fuels the breedbans and will result in freedom to have pets at all in this country,. Hey - just take your newborn or toddler and turn it loose in the house and leave for work...same thing.
> 
> Lee


* *** Removed by MOD, personal attack *** *, leave my newborn in the house and leave for work, compared to what, your way? Lock them in a crate for 17 hours?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> If we're talking about 18 hours a day... i don't think either are right. Could you survive 18 hours a day locked in a room with no tv, internet, or human interaction every single day? If we're talking about 5 or 6 hours at a time than they're most likely just going to sleep.
> 
> And look out the window? How long is that going to keep a dog entertained... a couple minutes? If you want a dog to look outdoors, put the crate near a window. Get a crate big enough for the dog to stretch if needed... i know the one i have is big enough for it.


We weren't talking about 5 hours, we were talking extremes such as 17 hours. Big difference between 5 hours and 17.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lucy Dog said:


> If we're talking about 18 hours a day... i don't think either are right. Could you survive 18 hours a day locked in a room with no tv, internet, or human interaction every single day? If we're talking about 5 or 6 hours at a time than they're most likely just going to sleep.
> .


I don't have an issue with 5 or 6 hours. It's people who crate for 8 or 9 or 10 hours while they're away at work (and happy hour, and dinner, and Little Billy's baseball game), let the dog out for an hour or two, then back in the crate for 8 or 9 hours to sleep, then out for 30 minutes or an hour in the morning, then back in for 8 or 9 hours. . . . . 

Those people just should not have a dog. If they ARE going to have a dog, free roam of the house is much better than a crate.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> My dog loves to watch everything going on outside, he watches me back out of the driveway as I leave-and he is there watching when I get back. Believe me it is much more entertaining than sleeping in the confinement of a crate all day, if he wants to nap he does so stretched out on the sofa.That's the difference.


How do you know the dogs aren't watching you leave and waiting for you to come home out of anxiety. Is staring out a window really keeping your dogs entertained or are they anxiously waiting for you to come home?

I ask because I've had a dog with bad SA issues. He wasn't destructive in the house and wasn't crated when he was older, but he'd just sit at the window and wait all day long for everyone to come home. He'd sit there for hours on end just waiting and waiting. He wasn't staring to keep himself entertained, he was staring out that window because he was a nervous wreck when his people weren't home.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

emoore said:


> i don't have an issue with 5 or 6 hours. It's people who crate for 8 or 9 or 10 hours while they're away at work (and happy hour, and dinner, and little billy's baseball game), let the dog out for an hour or two, then back in the crate for 8 or 9 hours to sleep, then out for 30 minutes or an hour in the morning, then back in for 8 or 9 hours. . . . .
> 
> Those people just should not have a dog. If they are going to have a dog, free roam of the house is much better than a crate.


like


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> I don't have an issue with 5 or 6 hours. It's people who crate for 8 or 9 or 10 hours while they're away at work (and happy hour, and dinner, and Little Billy's baseball game), let the dog out for an hour or two, then back in the crate for 8 or 9 hours to sleep, then out for 30 minutes or an hour in the morning, then back in for 8 or 9 hours. . . . .
> 
> Those people just should not have a dog. If they ARE going to have a dog, free roam of the house is much better than a crate.


I completely agree with everything except for the last part where you said free roam of the home is much better. I think they are equally bad and unfair.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> How do you know the dogs aren't watching you leave and waiting for you to come home out of anxiety. Is staring out a window really keeping your dogs entertained or are they anxiously waiting for you to come home?
> 
> I ask because I've had a dog with bad SA issues. He wasn't destructive in the house and wasn't crated when he was older, but he'd just sit at the window and wait all day long for everyone to come home. He'd sit there for hours on end just waiting and waiting. He wasn't staring to keep himself entertained, he was staring out that window because he was a nervous wreck when his people weren't home.


When I am home but am busy and not interacting with him, he stares out the window. He is not nervous at all, he enjoys watching everything going on outside. Other dogs walking by, people, etc. He loves looking out the window.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Exactly - it is ridiculous to leave a baby loose in the house and leave. But you are saying the same thing. Leave a baby loose and unsupervised for long periods of time. BTW - name calling is a no no. Babies are not able to make discretionary judgements and get into things. People or puppies. The law requires that human babies are supervised. With canine babies, we have an obligation to keep them safe from themselves.

You cannot equate everybody with your own limited experience and world. 

As paul says there are dogs with SA who are much more secure in a crate. There are dogs who will go through a picture window at the mailman or a loose dog peeing on THEIR tree in THEIR front yard....you have ONE DOG and you cannot force everyone everywhere into your thinking....again, this is the type of mindset of PETA - who want to eradicate pet ownership and breeding from the whole country!

People get up in the morning - take the pup out - play with the pup - put it in the crate while they go to work. Some are lucky enough to have friend/pet sittter come and break pup mid day. Then they come home, take the pup out, potty, play, interact for 6-8 hours. The puppy goes to bed - and most puppies get owners up in the middle of the night to potty. So your 17 hours in a crate is actually broken up in smaller chunks of time normally. Yes, ex pens are a good option. But crating vs no puppy is still better IN THE LONG RUN for the puppy who is getting a good responsible permanent home.

Lee


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> When I am home but am busy and not interacting with him, he stares out the window. He is not nervous at all, he enjoys watching everything going on outside. Other dogs walking by, people, etc. He loves looking out the window.


Ok... lets take my neighbors dog for example. This dog is left outdoors in the front yard for a minimum of 10-12 hours per day. He's probably around 3 years old, but whenever I drive by he's out there sleeping. I see him get up to go to the bathroom sometimes, but 99% of the time, he's on his side sleeping. 

He's not an outdoors dog. He comes in at night, but during the day when the weather is nice, he's outdoors. 

He has the birds and squirrels to watch. Cars coming and going. He's got everything that your dogs have when looking out the window, but he sleep all day long. 

Is this fair? Do you think he's better entertained in the situation he's in than being in a crate?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Ok... lets take my neighbors dog for example. This dog is left outdoors in the front yard for a minimum of 10-12 hours per day. He's probably around 3 years old, but whenever I drive by he's out there sleeping. I see him get up to go to the bathroom sometimes, but 99% of the time, he's on his side sleeping.
> 
> He's not an outdoors dog. He comes in at night, but during the day when the weather is nice, he's outdoors.
> 
> ...


I think it's much better for the dog to be able to entertain himself by watching things than trapped in a crate and forced to either sleep or stare at the sides of the crate. I know that people will justify what the decisions that they make but there is no comparison here. My dogs will remain loose, and watching out the window, walking around the house,snoozing on the couch, playing with their toys together, etc. Crated dogs will remain confined to their crate and sleeping all day. At the end of the day, I have said what I have, and take it or leave it. I have no more time to waste on this subject.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I think it's much better for the dog to be able to entertain himself by watching things than trapped in a crate and forced to either sleep or stare at the sides of the crate. I know that people will justify what the decisions that they make but there is no comparison here. My dogs will remain loose, and watching out the window, walking around the house,snoozing on the couch, playing with their toys together, etc. Crated dogs will remain confined to their crate and sleeping all day. At the end of the day, I have said what I have, and take it or leave it. I have no more time to waste on this subject.


One more question... how do you know what they do all day when you're not there? How do you know they're playing, napping, watching, and everything else you mentioned if no ones there to see? Have you set up a camera?

If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Everyone will justify their situation, so it's a somewhat useless argument.
> 
> I just don't see how we could take these dogs much farther away from their roots.
> GSD's working sheep outside all day and night long.
> ...


Thought my own quote was appropriate again at this point.

Whay do people own high energy dogs to lock them up for good portions of their lives. 
For selfish entertainment? To stare at and admire? What? If my lifestyle required me to crate a GSD for 8 to 12 hrs, during the day and another 7 or so during the night I would not own one. 

I raised dogs for over 5 decades without the use of a crate. None of them tore up my house, Peed or pooped all over. 
You house train them and give them a safe place to be. Dogs have been raised for many hundreds of years without crates. 
Crates serve a purpose for puppies, transportation, etc.. but really there should be a limit.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> One more question... how do you know what they do all day when you're not there? How do you know they're playing, napping, watching, and everything else you mentioned if no ones there to see? Have you set up a camera?
> 
> If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it...


As I said earlier, I have set up a camera on more than one occassion since I have started to let Alex out of her crate, unsupervised, for longer periods of time. And as I stated earlier, the results (so far, have done it six times with varying time periods of two hours to five hours) have always been the same. She sleeps. Sure, she moves to different spots to sleep, but that's about all the 'action' she gets. 

Outside of sleeping while I'm away, she is a very active dog (as the GSD breed tends to be) but this doesn't mean that she needs to be active 24/7.

Aside from all the different arguments, I think a big portion of the 'problem' is that people humanize dogs. Sure, I'm not going to stick my dog in a crate for 17 hours straight - not going to do it. But to think that if she's in a crate for more than an hour, that she's going to be sad and depressed because she's looking at the bars of her cage and not able to walk around the house by herself, is silly in my opinion. I guess I must have no heart since I care for my dog, but still view her as nothing more than a dog. An animal that sometimes needs boundaries to be put in place to protect herself.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Alexandria610 said:


> As I said earlier, I have set up a camera on more than one occassion since I have started to let Alex out of her crate, unsupervised, for longer periods of time. And as I stated earlier, the results (so far, have done it six times with varying time periods of two hours to five hours) have always been the same. She sleeps. Sure, she moves to different spots to sleep, but that's about all the 'action' she gets.
> 
> Outside of sleeping while I'm away, she is a very active dog (as the GSD breed tends to be) but this doesn't mean that she needs to be active 24/7.
> 
> Aside from all the different arguments, I think a big portion of the 'problem' is that people humanize dogs. Sure, I'm not going to stick my dog in a crate for 17 hours straight - not going to do it. But to think that if she's in a crate for more than an hour, that she's going to be sad and depressed because she's looking at the bars of her cage and not able to walk around the house by herself, is silly in my opinion. I guess I must have no heart since I care for my dog, but still view her as nothing more than a dog. An animal that sometimes needs boundaries to be put in place to protect herself.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thought my own quote was appropriate again at this point.
> 
> Whay do people own high energy dogs to lock them up for good portions of their lives.
> For selfish entertainment? To stare at and admire? What? *If my lifestyle required me to crate a GSD for 8 to 12 hrs, during the day and another 7 or so during the night I would not own one. *
> ...


So basically people who work shouldn't own pets? I'm sorry but I find this to be quite ludicrous. Call me crazy but I think Sasha is a lot happier with me than she would be if she were either A) in a shelter where she would most likely have to share a cramped space with other yapping dogs or B) roaming the streets trying to fend for herself. Would she love it if I was home all day long and didn't have to work or go to school? Absolutely! Then again so would I, but unfortunately we don't all get what we want. We work with what we have and try to make it the best we can.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> So basically people who work shouldn't own pets? I'm sorry but I find this to be quite ludicrous. Call me crazy but I think Sasha is a lot happier with me than she would be if she were either A) in a shelter where she would most likely have to share a cramped space with other yapping dogs or B) roaming the streets trying to fend for herself. Would she love it if I was home all day long and didn't have to work or go to school? Absolutely! Then again so would I, but unfortunately we don't all get what we want. We work with what we have and try to make it the best we can.


 I worked a minimum of forty hours a week up to seventy on occasion. On average 45 hours a week. For many years I was a single dad with physical custody of my three children. Which meant school activities, grocery shopping,yard work and everything else. We always had one or two dogs. So, *YES* you can work and raise dogs. I just didn't do it with crates.
I find it ludicrous for people to own GSD's in an apartment or house and crate them 8 to 17 hrs. a day.
I also don't find the sleep all day argument compelling. My dogs could and can at least move from one place to another to sleep if that is what they do. In a crate I guess all the excitement comes from turning around once in awhile.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thought my own quote was appropriate again at this point.
> 
> *Whay do people own high energy dogs to lock them up for good portions of their lives.
> For selfish entertainment? To stare at and admire? What? If my lifestyle required me to crate a GSD for 8 to 12 hrs, during the day and another 7 or so during the night I would not own one.
> ...


AMEN to that!


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

I struggle with how much time our dogs spend in their crates...one of them is totally housetrained and trustworthy in the house, and she sleeps outside of her crate at night. She has separation anxiety that is mostly under control now, and the crate seems like the best option to help her settle when we leave.
The other dog was raised in a kennel 24/7 for the first year of her life, and her housebreaking is totally nonexistent when we aren't around or awake. She also eats things when she is anxious, including towels, paper, furniture, etc. We've tried leaving her uncrated for short periods of time and every time come home to either pee/poop, or something chewed up. When she sleeps out of her crate at night, she'll pee on the carpet if she needs to go without waking us first.

I would much rather leave both dogs out during the 4 days a week when we are gone for 8 hours, but even after pulling up the carpet and putting down laminate instead, the fear of the destructive dog getting into something and seriously hurting herself terrifies me. She's already had a $3k surgery for a bowel obstruction after eating a towel.

They get a 60-80 minute off-leash hike in the mountains every morning before I leave, and at least an hour of exercise and training as soon as I get home. They are left with Kongs that are frozen and stuffed with treats. 

It would be better if crates weren't necessary, but we haven't figured a way around Dog #2's housebreaking and destruction issues other than crating, since she panics when she is left outside in the yard and there aren't any safe rooms in our house that can be blockaded off. 

Both dogs have much better lives with us than they did previously, so even though I'm sure there are better owners out there who have more money and less responsibility, I like to think we're doing OK.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I worked a minimum of forty hours a week up to seventy on occasion. On average 45 hours a week. For many years I was a single dad with physical custody of my three children. Which meant school activities, grocery shopping,yard work and everything else. We always had one or two dogs. So, *YES* you can work and raise dogs. I just didn't do it with crates.
> I find it ludicrous for people to own GSD's in an apartment or house and crate them 8 to 17 hrs. a day.
> I also don't find the sleep all day argument compelling. My dogs could and can at least move from one place to another to sleep if that is what they do. In a crate I guess all the excitement comes from turning around once in awhile.


I wouldn't say it's ludicrous; I would say it's not ideal. I LOVE being able to leave Sasha out. She is never in her crate now unless she chooses to be, and I like it better that way because she can sprawl out on the couch if she wants, she can go get a drink, she can play with a toy for a while, etc. However, I feel I am lucky. Sasha is non-destructive. She doesn't (usually) pee or poop in the house. When we lived at my mom's house she was crated as soon as everyone left the house (generally around 8-8:30) was let out at lunch for about 1/2 an hour, and then was out for the rest of the night at around 4:30. When we first got her we crated her at night too because she wouldn't wake us up if she needed to potty and we couldn't have her ruining the floors. She has earned the right to be out of her crate, and I'm glad she has, but I don't think owners who have dogs that simply can't be trusted outside their crate when they're gone are bad owners or shouldn't have dogs simply because they prefer to keep both their house and their dogs safe.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> I find it ludicrous for people to own GSD's in an apartment or house and crate them 8 to 17 hrs. a day.
> I also don't find the sleep all day argument compelling. My dogs could and can at least move from one place to another to sleep if that is what they do. In a crate I guess all the excitement comes from turning around once in awhile.


So you think it's ludicrous to crate them that long, but it wouldn't be if they were outside the crate to stare out the window, stretch, drink, play board games, watch tv, clean up the house, and everything else they do outside the crate when no one is home?

Whether you find it compelling or not, it's a fact.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Is anyone else mildly uncomfortable with the idea of keeping a dog in a box, taking it out to play with it, and putting it back up when we're done?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> Is anyone else mildly uncomfortable with the idea of keeping a dog in a box, taking it out to play with it, and putting it back up when we're done?


Come on... are you serious? 

For anyone who doesn't abuse the crate, you know very well that that's not what a crate is used for. Dogs aren't toys and most of us aren't children.

It's a place to train when puppies and keep safe when adults (if needed). That's my take on them. Simple as that. Believe it or not, some dogs actually love them, even as adults.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

This argument will never end, unfortunately it's not a win/lose situation for humans. It's the crated dogs who loose. But alas, what can we do? I for one feel so sorry for dogs that are crated for anything more than 5 hours or so that I wish that I could block this entire thread, and any others like it-that way I wouldn't feel horrible just thinking about these dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This argument will never end, unfortunately it's not a win/lose situation for humans.* It's the crated dogs who loose*. But alas, what can we do? I for one feel so sorry for dogs that are crated for anything more than 5 hours or so that I wish that I could block this entire thread, and any others like it-that way I wouldn't feel horrible just thinking about these dogs.


Not to mention the owner who comes home to find their dog choked and died trying to swallow a raw hide bone or attempted to chew on a live electrical chord. The dog is the loser there.

Or the owner who comes home to find their home destroyed because their dog was bored and decided to entertain to itself. The house and the owners pocket is the loser there.

But whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Not to mention the owner who comes home to find their dog choked and died trying to swallow a raw hide bone or attempted to chew on a live electrical chord. The dog is the loser there.
> 
> Or the owner who comes home to find their home destroyed because their dog was bored and decided to entertain to itself. The house and the owners pocket is the loser there.
> 
> But whatever helps you sleep at night.


Exactly, whatever excuses help you sleep at night.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

We could go on and on and on about which views are right, wrong, better, worse, good, bad, abusive, heavenly...but at the end of the day, we know ourselves and our dogs better than anyone else (regardless of what great years of GSD or dog knowledge they may have) and whatever we do for our dogs (so long as it isn't hurting them or considered inhumane or abusive) is what we will do for our dogs. 

Nobody else's opinion will change ours, no matter how much we try to shove it down others' throats. As long as what you are doing is working, why jump on others? The majority of the people that are on this forum OBVIOUSLY do not abuse or harm their animals - so why feel the need to attack their way of doing something or thinking, for either side? I'm just trying to find a neutral ground on this one now.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lucy Dog said:


> Come on... are you serious?
> 
> For anyone who doesn't abuse the crate, you know very well that that's not what a crate is used for. Dogs aren't toys and most of us aren't children.



I'm not saying that's that mindset, but if you sit back and think about it that way. . . . it's just weird. I use crates too, but it's kind of an odd societal thing. If people 50 or 100 years ago had seen it they would have thought we'd lost our minds. 

I had a coworker who worked an 8 1/2 hour day and had a 1 hour commute each way. Often she'd stop on the way home for a drink or two. Her 3 dogs were crated all day and then at night when she was asleep. 

I think crates are kind of like e-collars or prongs in that they have a place but can easily be abused through ignorance.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This argument will never end, unfortunately it's not a win/lose situation for humans. It's the crated dogs who loose. But alas, what can we do? I for one feel so sorry for dogs that are crated for anything more than 5 hours or so that I wish that I could block this entire thread, and any others like it-that way I wouldn't feel horrible just thinking about these dogs.


Sorry, dogs who are without their humans and without a job to do for 8 hours a day are just as miserable out of a box as they are in it. Maybe it makes you feel better to think that your uncrated dog is writing poetry and gazing out the window studying cloud formations while the crated dog is thinking suicidal thoughts, but the reality is both of them are equally bored without their primary source of stimulation, which is you, their owner.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Runswithdogs said:


> Sorry, dogs who are without their humans and without a job to do for 8 hours a day are just as miserable out of a box as they are in it. Maybe it makes you feel better to think that your uncrated dog is writing poetry and gazing out the window studying cloud formations while the crated dog is thinking suicidal thoughts, but the reality is both of them are equally bored without their primary source of stimulation, which is you, their owner.


I strongly disagree with you. I have 2 dogs that keep each other company. They have access to their food/water dishes. They can stretch out, walk around, look out the window, watch what is going on out the front window that is conveniently located with a couch in front so they can sit on it and watch or snooze. If I stuffed my dogs into a box, they would be miserable. There is no comparison between a dog trapped in a box and one that is free to move around the house.

I can't seem to jump off of this merry go round.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, I don't really see one's method of confinement (within reason) as the problem. My GSDs are GSDs, they are not lie-around-the-house-all-day kind of dogs whether it be a crate, kennel, or the whole frickin house. As soon as the weather allows, I take my dogs to work with me so they get worked and/or walked on my breaks. In the fall I often walk a mile out to a field, lay a SchH sized track, track Nikon, and then walk the mile back on my lunch break. We use another field to do obedience and then play fetch. Just because a dog is free in the house and never crated is only part of the picture and still doesn't tell me anything about the dog or whether it's being raised properly. A dog, like a WORKING breed dog that is supposed to have good drives and energy, is always going to need mental stimulation and physical exercise. Even if I left all my dogs at home all day free in the house, what could they even do? My house is small, there's not room for me to train them or play with them inside even when I am home. Unless I live on a farm or have land I just have to make an effort to spend time with dogs. Yes people can and do abuse crazy and use them as a lazy way out but people also think their dog is happy because it has total freedom in the house and yard and never spend any time really challenging the dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Runswithdogs said:


> Sorry, dogs who are without their humans and without a job to do for 8 hours a day are just as miserable out of a box as they are in it. Maybe it makes you feel better to think that your uncrated dog is writing poetry and gazing out the window studying cloud formations while the crated dog is thinking suicidal thoughts, but the reality is both of them are equally bored without their primary source of stimulation, which is you, their owner.


Unless you and Paul are dog psychics you have no more idea than I do what makes them happy. 
After almost six generations of raising dogs and working all I can say is that it succeded. I think my dogs were better off for not living in a box. 
You want to shove your animals in a box for many hours and call them happy, go for it.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Versus









How would you rather wait for the return of your people?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> View attachment 11790
> 
> 
> Versus
> ...


Good job GSDlova. Nice pic.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Wow a large part of what I've taken from the past twenty or whatever posts:

If you crate, you are bad and evil and you shouldn't own a dog.

If you work, you shouldn't own a dog.

Would someone please come tell my three dogs I am too evil of an owner because I do work full time and do crate them until they're responsible in the house.? Please call the local Animal Cops and report me. Please then come pick up my dogs and take them to your house, so they can stare out your window or hang out in your backyard and watch the pretty birdies fly by, the cute squirrels jump and live really happy doggie lives.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Personally, I wouldn't be too thrilled to come home to:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm laughing at that second pic! I could share some of mine, but alas, all the shredding type messes my dogs have made have been while I was at home! I guess they really do sleep all day, lol.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chelle:

People would do the same things they did before the modern use of the crate.
I never had a dog that did anything that even remotely looked like the destruction in that picture. There is more than a lack of a crate problem there.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Chelle: ... There is more than a lack of a crate problem there.


I would definitely agree that that is likely true. Those are random pics off the 'net, btw - I've never had to come home to anything like that... thanks to crating  

As someone stated earlier, there's no need to rip everyone apart because they don't use the same strategies. 

The "tone" coming across about those who use crating is quite condescending. References to "shoving a dog in a box" and such. The whole "17 hours" in a crate? I don't believe too many people who spend time trying to learn on this forum have their dogs in a crate for SEVENTEEN hours a day? Those people don't come to dog forums. 

I'm not a bad dog owner because I choose to crate when at work. 

You know, this whole thing could go off in a lot of directions. I spent 1-2 hours exercising him daily. On weekends, we spend far, far more time than that. Today was almost two hours at the dog park and a two mile hike on the trails... so my point here... is that yes, Mon-Thurs, Mr Bails is in a crate between 6-8 hours per day -- the long 2 days broken up in the middle by me coming home at lunch -- and he's doin' just fine. He's a happy dog. He's getting a TON of exercise. I'm a happy owner because he's never hurt a thing in my house. The few times he's tried to dig at the carpet, he got an immediate NO and quit. What if I hadn't been home to tell him "no"? I would have likely come home to shredded carpet. He's a pup, he wouldn't automatically know better. He has to do the "wrong" things to be corrected so he knows to not do them, IMHO. 

Anyway, that was too long - sorry.. it's silly for me to waste keystrokes trying to "sell" or justify my point of view. It's what works for me and WORKS for Bailey at this time. I structure my entire life around getting straight home to get him out.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

chelle said:


> Wow a large part of what I've taken from the past twenty or whatever posts:
> 
> If you crate, you are bad and evil and you shouldn't own a dog.
> 
> If you work, you shouldn't own a dog.


That is what I have gotten from it, as well. 

It is sad that others feel the need to judge, based on one simple thing. A crate (as many have stated, over and over) is a tool - it can be used, and it can be abused. Just because you use it doesn't mean you abuse it, and it shouldn't mean that you are evil. Just because you've had success without the crate doesn't make you any better than someone who utilizes the crate. You should feel lucky that you have a dog that doesn't wreak havoc when unsupervised, and that you are able to have no worry of the dog that is uncrated. For those that use crates (including myself), I'm sure the majority of us would love to be able to allow our dogs 100% freedom in the house - but the reality is that that is not always the best for particular dogs, and that the crate is a great tool to utilize to protect our dogs, our furniture/belongings/house, and our own sanity as a human being that has constant worries over creatures we love.

The last sentence wasn't meant to say that those that keep their dogs out of crates while they are absent care nothing for their pets, but it seems (from the tone of the posts) that there aren't as many worries placed on the 'free running' dogs than those that have been crated.
The people that crate do not crate for pleasure or for fun or to 'get some amusement', they crate for many reasons. If someone cannot see that those who crate their dogs love their animals and only do what is best (in their opinion and knowledge of their INDIVIDUAL dogs) by reading many of the other posts throughout this forum, these included, then that someone's views are convoluted and perhaps they should re-evaluate what it is to be a loving pet owner.

I use a prong collar, as well, but there are plenty of people I know that I would hate to see using them (since they don't understand how to properly use them, and would more than likely abuse them if they tried to use them). 

And I think that, by now, everyone can agree that not EVERYBODY used crates 20-50 years ago. Not the average pet owner, anyway. But we can also agree that many dog owners did, in fact, use crates, as mentioned in previous posts. I fail to see the scientific evidence that 'crated' dogs aren't as happy or fulfilled as 'free running' dogs. That may be the case for a particular dog, and that is perfectly fine. But as far as I can see, that is purely opinion. 

Those who crate shouldn't feel as if they need to defend their position, while those who don't shouldn't feel the need to defend their position either.

Why can't we just agree to disagree?


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Thought my own quote was appropriate again at this point.
> 
> Whay do people own high energy dogs to lock them up for good portions of their lives.
> For selfish entertainment? To stare at and admire? What? If my lifestyle required me to crate a GSD for 8 to 12 hrs, during the day and another 7 or so during the night I would not own one.
> ...


Exactly my feelings. My GSDs have never been crated beyond 8 months old,and that was only at night (6 hours max I'd guess),with never any issues. Prep with intense exercise. I would have never adopted a dog if he was going to have to be crated all day. 
Rationalization allow us to behave in any way that is suitable for our selfish needs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

or this...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

lrodptl said:


> Exactly my feelings. My GSDs have never been crated beyond 8 months old,and that was only at night (6 hours max I'd guess),with never any issues. Prep with intense exercise. I would have never adopted a dog if he was going to have to be crated all day.
> *Rationalization allow us to behave in any way that is suitable for our selfish needs*.


Ok, now this is just plain OFFENSIVE. My "selfish" needs are why I use a crate? REALLY?

Well, gee my pup has never once been crated at night. Maybe you shouldn't have adopted a dog that needed to be crated during the night. (Ridiculous statement to match your ridiculous, condescending statement.)

Please do tell me what it is I am rationalizing.?

Adding -- so in your world... we are selfish if our dogs are crated beyond eight months? Is that your magic age that it becomes selfish? Just wondering, since my pup is only five months.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This argument will never end, unfortunately it's not a win/lose situation for humans. It's the crated dogs who loose. But alas, what can we do? I for one feel so sorry for dogs that are crated for anything more than 5 hours or so that I wish that I could block this entire thread, and any others like it-that way I wouldn't feel horrible just thinking about these dogs.


And I feel sorry for untrained dogs who destroy their owners property, ruin carpets, tear up couches and end up getting dumped because their owners thought crates were cruel. I was contacted by someone who worked with a rescue a few years ago for help in picking up an Anatolian Shepherd that was close to me, I was to pick her up and take her to a kennel where she stayed for 2 weeks until the foster home could take her. When I picked her up the owner was upset that she would be going in a crate in my truck!!!! She was loose in the game room, owners stated over and over that they would not cage her, it was mean. The couch was in SHREADS - stuffing all over the place, books ripped up and shredded, throw rugs, even some clothes dragged out of the adjacent laundry room after she chewed holes in the door....owner was crying when I picked her up, she was overwhelmed and "loved" the dog...but had no clue what to do with her (10 month old puppy BTW)....it was the dog or the husband....but OMG she would NEVER put a dog in a cage.........dump it at the shelter sure...but cage it??? I will never forget the disaster that pup made of that room because the owner refused to use a crate to train that dog! So it is not CRATED Dogs who loose....it is dogs whose owners are close minded and project their own emotions onto the dogs. I feel sorry for those dogs who lose their homes or their lives because their owners do not crate them and can't live with the consequences.

Lee


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The thread got off track because sensitive people have made the issue personal.

It's not complicated for me based on the OP. 

I think if people are gone 8 to 10 hours or more a day and crate ther dogs for that period. Then crate them to sleep, another 6 to 8 hours, that is too long for a dog to be cooped up on a regular basis. That is my opinion and if others disagree, so be it.

The OP did not bring up other issues like exercise. All dogs crated or uncrated need exercise but that's another topic.

I for one don't think someone who uses crates for long periods of time is an evil person. I do wonder why they got the kind of dog they did? That again is just my opinion.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> And I feel sorry for untrained dogs who destroy their owners property, ruin carpets, tear up couches and end up getting dumped because their owners thought crates were cruel.


Lee: This sums it up with the key being *untrained* which has nothing to do with crates.
Puppies are also a different situation than dogs. Crates are great until puppies are *trained*.

If people choose to keep *trained* dogs in a crate all day then that is their choice.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Lee: This sums it up with the key being *untrained* which has nothing to do with crates.
> Puppies are also a different situation than dogs. Crates are great until puppies are *trained*.
> 
> If people choose to keep *trained* dogs in a crate all day then that is their choice.


*severe separation anxiety* is not caused or cured by *training*. behavioral protocols can *help* and, for lucky dogs, sometimes cure it, but for some dogs with SA, crates are actually *far better* for their emotional and physical safety than being out loose.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well maybe all those people have *untrained* dogs, hence using the crate....


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> The thread got off track because sensitive people have made the issue personal.
> 
> It's not complicated for me based on the OP.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Here we go with the "sensitive" crap. Love it. If a person raises up, they're "sensitive." Ok.

What is funny is that so many have a personal "time limit," so to speak, as to what is acceptable versus what is neglect/abuse. The times you've mentioned, in MY mind ARE too much. MUCH too much. This also plays into your statement about why they got the dog they did. Actually, why get any dog in that case? No dog wants to live the majority of its life in a crate - no argument there. 

I think exercise is important here - because my dog is crated four days per week, I feel I must really raise the bar in making sure he's getting a lot of exercise. Not that being loose in the house really releases much energy, though, so those owners need to do the same thing as well really. If an owner is crating a great deal, that owner (IMHO) *must* _especially_ ensure that dog is exercised extremely well outside of that crate.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Runswithdogs said:


> *severe separation anxiety* is not caused or cured by *training*. behavioral protocols can *help* and, for lucky dogs, sometimes cure it, but for some dogs with SA, crates are actually *far better* for their emotional and physical safety than being out loose.


There are alwas exceptions and this would certainly be one. So would injury, or health etc...

Liesje: A rescue or someone getting an untrained adult dog would also be different. If a dog is just untrained because the owner didn't take time or won't. Then there is a bigger problem than just a crate.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What's the "bigger problem"? That the dog's owner doesn't have the exact same idea of what constitutes safe and fair confinement as someone else so they must have a "big problem"?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chelle: 

Screw the sensitive word then . I do have a personal limit on time and you can make what you want out of that. If you feel judged then you are being judged. The OP asked for opinion and got them in spades. Some of them are mine. If you don't like them or disagree do what you feel is right.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> What's the "bigger problem"? That the dog's owner doesn't have the exact same idea of what constitutes safe and fair confinement as someone else so they must have a "big problem"?


 I consider an untrained dog to be a bigger problem than to crate or not to crate or how long in a crate.

I like your posts but I don't personally care how long any individual crates their dogs.

My responses are my opinion only and in response to the OP and the follow up posts. Also how I feel in general on the topic. What individuals do including me is their problem or solution as the case may be.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you think that the answer is always training but never management? Just curious because some dogs will *never* be trained to the point where they can be free in a home and not get into trouble. I do not think a dog's confinement is always an indicator of how much time and effort the owner has put into training. A dog in a crate, to me, is not "untrained" it's just not reliable in the house. Same could be said for outdoor dogs, kennel dogs, etc.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> And I feel sorry for untrained dogs who destroy their owners property, ruin carpets, tear up couches and end up getting dumped because their owners thought crates were cruel. I was contacted by someone who worked with a rescue a few years ago for help in picking up an Anatolian Shepherd that was close to me, I was to pick her up and take her to a kennel where she stayed for 2 weeks until the foster home could take her. When I picked her up the owner was upset that she would be going in a crate in my truck!!!! She was loose in the game room, owners stated over and over that they would not cage her, it was mean. The couch was in SHREADS - stuffing all over the place, books ripped up and shredded, throw rugs, even some clothes dragged out of the adjacent laundry room after she chewed holes in the door....owner was crying when I picked her up, she was overwhelmed and "loved" the dog...but had no clue what to do with her (10 month old puppy BTW)....it was the dog or the husband....but OMG she would NEVER put a dog in a cage.........dump it at the shelter sure...but cage it??? I will never forget the disaster that pup made of that room because the owner refused to use a crate to train that dog! So it is not CRATED Dogs who loose....it is dogs whose owners are close minded and project their own emotions onto the dogs. I feel sorry for those dogs who lose their homes or their lives because their owners do not crate them and can't live with the consequences.
> 
> Lee


I guess that the few of us who don't crate then have some pretty awesome dogs because they don't break things or get into stuff and can be trusted to stay loose in the house while we are gone. And all the rest of you have some wild and unruly dogs who eat dry wall, tear couches, and rip up your carpets and must be confined to cages or you will take them to the dog pound for all the damage they will cause. I guess there are only a few of us who lucked out, or were able to train our dogs not to behave that way.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wow way to miss the point, lol


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Chelle:
> 
> Screw the sensitive word then . I do have a personal limit on time and you can make what you want out of that. If you feel judged then you are being judged. The OP asked for opinion and got them in spades. Some of them are mine. If you don't like them or disagree do what you feel is right.


I have my own opinions on time limits as well. I'm not attacking you for taking a "time" stance. I thought I stated before that I did in fact agree that the time limits you stated were far too much.

I don't know that I feel "judged." But doesn't really matter. I'm doing what is best in my situation.

I can agree to disagree. 

Actually I would love nothing more than for Mr Bails to run free in the house. Truth is, though, that he's too young. He's not done teething. There are two other loose dogs in the house and those relationships are growing and developing and are NOT secure enough without supervision. 

At the end of the day, of course, I will do what I feel is right. I may make mistakes, but what dog owner has not made them... Bottom line is that I CARE - with ALL my heart - about ALL my dogs and the best scenario for ALL of them.

Anywho, bottom line........crates are terrific when necessary and when used *properly*. By "proper" I mean that they are not in those crates for extended periods of time. I think they are a great puppy resource for those of us who must go to a job every day. I do not drive 25 minutes across town to get Bailey out twice + per week because I do NOT care.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Wow way to miss the point, lol


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Do you think that the answer is always training but never management? Just curious because some dogs will *never* be trained to the point where they can be free in a home and not get into trouble. I do not think a dog's confinement is always an indicator of how much time and effort the owner has put into training. A dog in a crate, to me, is not "untrained" it's just not reliable in the house. Same could be said for outdoor dogs, kennel dogs, etc.


No. As I said there are always exceptions. As far as outdooe kennels and anything else you can think up, dogs have to be kept somwhere. It's a choice and a matter of belief as to what is best.

Chelle: 

I don't have any problems with your last response, We all have different circumstances. 
The OP was talking in general about dogs and crates in the U.S.. 

I was answering in general with my belief system.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

So kennel and crate are different? I always think of them as the same (so my posts are from that perspective).


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Wow way to miss the point, lol


you talking to me??? What point did I miss? Are you not justifying crating your dog by using the example of the lady with the psychotic dog that tore up her whole house? Is your dog like her dog and that is why you are crating him or are you crating a well behaved dog that would not destroy things, just because you feel like it? Tell me, what is your point when it comes to crating your dog because I don't see the point of using a far fetched example if you are not applying it to justify your own decisions.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Huh? As I've already stated earlier (and in the other countless threads on this topic) my dogs *must* be crated while in a vehicle, so yeah I crate them because I "feel" like it, must be the same reason that people get tickets for not wearing seat belts and kids have to be in carseats or boosters. To not properly secure a dog in a vehicle is IMO dangerous and irresponsible. 

My dogs have never eaten a couch nor do they have SA. My adults do not need to be crated while I'm gone or at night (they sleep on the bed with us or on the floor wherever they choose).

And yes I was talking about your response to Lee's post.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Huh? As I've already stated earlier (and in the other countless threads on this topic) my dogs *must* be crated while in a vehicle, so yeah I crate them because I "feel" like it, must be the same reason that people get tickets for not wearing seat belts and kids have to be in carseats or boosters. To not properly secure a dog in a vehicle is IMO dangerous and irresponsible.
> 
> My dogs have never eaten a couch nor do they have SA. My adults do not need to be crated while I'm gone or at night (they sleep on the bed with us or on the floor wherever they choose).
> 
> And yes I was talking about your response to Lee's post.


lol, I have been on this merry go round thread for so long that I must have gotten dizzy. I had you confused with someone else.

But my response was right on the point anyhow to Lee's comment.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well FWIW I've had a dog that might be "psychotic" or whatever you want to call it and it's not funny or a walk in the park to deal with (though my dog is not destructive and does not have to be crated but often is for her own sense of security) but I guess not everyone is so abundantly blessed to get a perfectly well behaved dog or get a puppy that can be reared and trained correctly. That is what Lee was saying. There are millions of dogs in this country dumped in shelters and rescues and many of them have problems that cannot be cured or trained away and will only be safe and happy with careful management. If you've never dealt with that I suppose it's easy to say all one has to do is train a dog to behave in the house.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

To break down the moral of the story:



wolfstraum said:


> So it is not CRATED Dogs who loose....it is dogs whose owners are close minded and project their own emotions onto the dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> So kennel and crate are different? I always think of them as the same (so my posts are from that perspective).


I don't see them as the same because the kennel I have is about forty feet long and 15 feet wide, which is considerably larger than a crate.

Of course if they lay in the same spot and sleep all day then I guess that would be the same.

So then would a large yard be the same to you as a crate. How about a pasture? Since it seems like you are looking for a line where some place to keep the dog would not be the same as a crate.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't see them as the same because the kennel I have is about forty feet long and 15 feet wide, which is considerably larger than a crate.
> 
> Of course if they lay in the same spot and sleep all day then I guess that would be the same.
> 
> So then would a large yard be the same to you as a crate. How about a pasture? Since it seems like you are looking for a line where some place to keep the dog would not be the same as a crate.



Doesn't matter to me because I'm not the one drawing lines about how dogs should be confined and for how long and for what reason. People need to do what is appropriate for the safety and livelihood of their dogs. For me an outdoor kennel is not realistic and leaving a dog in a yard is not safe where we live. House, crate, or van it is. I knew someone with a large working breed dog who's whole house was smaller than your kennel.

I still maintain that crate training is a must if a dog is ever going to be transported in a vehicle and because at some point there could be a medical emergency.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Well FWIW I've had a dog that might be "psychotic" or whatever you want to call it and it's not funny or a walk in the park to deal with (though my dog is not destructive and does not have to be crated but often is for her own sense of security) but I guess not everyone is so abundantly blessed to get a perfectly well behaved dog or get a puppy that can be reared and trained correctly. That is what Lee was saying. There are millions of dogs in this country dumped in shelters and rescues and many of them have problems that cannot be cured or trained away and will only be safe and happy with careful management. If you've never dealt with that I suppose it's easy to say all one has to do is train a dog to behave in the house.


I really don't think the OP thought out all the potential reasons for dogs to be crated. Rescue dogs are a good reason. I think people forgot what he asked. Look at the original post. He is from another country and is questioning the U.S.'s massive use of crates and the length of time in them. There are lots of legitimate reasons to use crates. There are probably hundreds of reasons people use crates and some are good ones. 
Some of us (speaking in general terms) think they are used too often and for too long.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

:thumbup:


Liesje said:


> Wow way to miss the point, lol



:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

To help the OP in answering their questions:



Wubba said:


> Is it so that in America it's seen as almost obligatory to have a crate for your dog, and is it really necessary?


It is not so that in America it's seen as almost obligatory to have a crate for your dog, no. Most training books recommend it because it has been found (by some) to be a great aid in helping do other types of training such as potty training. 

It is not really necessary to crate a dog, no, but again, many find it useful in training a dog in other areas as well as keeping puppies and adult dogs out of things in/around the house that may be harmful for them. 



> Is it possible that the dogs have simply resigned to this and go in their crates, not because they want to, but because it's become a habit?


For some, yes, it could very well be. Dogs, like humans, are creatures of habit. Getting you up early in the morning, even on days off and weekends, is a habit for most dogs - they do not understand the difference between days, and thus will more than likely always wake you up at the same time every morning. Of course, there are varying factors that may change the times, but that is beside the point.

To think of this as a humanized behavior would seemingly twist it into something cruel. That they are 'resigning' to going into the crate is almost as if to say they have given up (at least, that is what it seems to be) and bend to your will. To a point, that is a good thing. I'm not saying it in an abusive manner, but simply as a trained thing. When you ask a dog to sit and/or stay, you are commanding it to do this - bending it to your will, so to speak. Does that make any sense? Or am I just sort of running in circles with my explanation? I apologize if I'm not being clear on that answer.



> Is it a new easy way out of teaching the dog to be home alone?


It is not as new as some may think it to be. Crating dogs has been around for a long time, but it is more recently becoming a strong force in home training and pet ownership. I'm not entirely sure how to answer your question, as I don't understand it 100%. I do not want to misguide you with an answer that is not true to the context of your question. 

But from what I can gather with this question (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that you are asking if it is a new easy way to 'teach' a dog to be home alone, rather than another way to teach it to be at home alone? 

Again, please correct me if I am wrong. If I am not, here is my answer: 

I personally believe it is a tool, and that is all. It is not a lazy way out (at least not for me and many other dog owners I know of, but it could very well be for some I suppose) in order to ignore 'teaching' it to be at home by itself. I personally use the crate for various reasons. I have recently started to slowly allow my dog to be 'free roaming' by itself in the house, but at the cost of having to crate my other dog and lock my two cats in a large room of my house so as not to worry about their well-being. My dog is young and can, at times, be a little out of hand. This is not due to a lack of training, but rather due to her age. 

But again, to try and answer your question - I believe that this question's answer is all based on the person, their dog, and their situation. Most people will have an entirely different answer and opinion on this question.



> Now I wonder, since crates seems to be such a wide spread thing in America, is there a particular reason for this? I was wondering if perhaps it could be due to there being a lot more adopted dogs there that may have issues from their previous homes and needs the crate to relax?


Well, there are a lot of reasons that people use crates. Many of those reasons have already been stated and argued in the above posts.

It may very well be, in some cases, due to the amount of adopted dogs. I know from personal experience that my rescue felt much more comfortable in her crate than outside of it, as it was a small space that was her own and she could 'escape' the rest of the world until she became comfortable with our house and all of us. 

I think the main reason that it seems so abundant in America is that, again, it is mentioned so much in our literature and in our media due to the fact that (in some case studies) it has proven successful in being a tool to help in other areas of training.


-----------------------

I hope that some of that may have helped you better understand this issue. 

Also, realize that the above was of my own, personal experiences and opinions. It is not 'fact' and should not be construed as such. Again, hope that helps some!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> lol, I have been on this merry go round thread for so long that I must have gotten dizzy. I had you confused with someone else.
> 
> But my response was right on the point anyhow to Lee's comment.


No - it was not "on the point" - Your posts are pure tunnel vision and stubborn refusal to consider anyone's point but your own to have any validity. Since your lifestyle and type of dog you own support your wishes does not mean that everyone in the world who crates is evil and mean. I have had dogs that were loose when I was not home, and dogs that I crate for their own protection...even though mine have never torn up a house...but you refuse to consider that there are dogs who are not trained and end up destroyed their enviornment or hurting themselves, because the owner thinks like you - that crates are "mean" and the dogs finally lose their homes, and perhaps their lives....

It is not black and white - there are many variations on managing puppies and dogs and people's real lives. Ideally, people would only breed perfect dogs. Buyers would give them perfect homes. And everyone with dogs would have resources enough to live wonderful lives without going off to work to pay their bills.

But - that is not real life, and just because my dogs or someone else's dogs spend time in crates when they are work does NOT make them "wrong" and you "right". That is the problem - you will not acknowledge that other people's positions have validity - just yours.

Lee


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> No - it was not "on the point" - Your posts are pure tunnel vision and stubborn refusal to consider anyone's point but your own to have any validity. Since your lifestyle and type of dog you own support your wishes does not mean that everyone in the world who crates is evil and mean. I have had dogs that were loose when I was not home, and dogs that I crate for their own protection...even though mine have never torn up a house...but you refuse to consider that there are dogs who are not trained and end up destroyed their enviornment or hurting themselves, because the owner thinks like you - that crates are "mean" and the dogs finally lose their homes, and perhaps their lives....
> 
> It is not black and white - there are many variations on managing puppies and dogs and people's real lives. Ideally, people would only breed perfect dogs. Buyers would give them perfect homes. And everyone with dogs would have resources enough to live wonderful lives without going off to work to pay their bills.
> 
> ...


And you are opened minded? :shocked: 

I will restate myself AGAIN 17 hours in a crate is too long. If your dog is in a crate for 17 hours I am going to go a step further now, and just say straight up-then you are a horrible owner and shouldn't have ever got a dog. You don't like my opinion? I don't care, nor should you care about mine either because I don't know you anyhow. I just feel sorry for dogs treated this way, and you are right I won't change my opinion about that, unfortunately neither will the people who confine their dog for 17 plus hours.

People-train your dogs and you will both be much happier. Your dog won't need a crate, and you won't need to feel guilty and argue your point with a stranger.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Why does this seventeen hour thing keep being brought up?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I am not talking about puppies, I am talking about dogs that are old enough to have been trained already, yet remain crated for way too many hours a day. I am speaking up in defense of these dogs, they can't speak for themselves. People who crate your dog all day while you are at work and then all night, have you ever tested your dog to see if they could be trusted out of the crate?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> And you are opened minded? :shocked:
> 
> I will restate myself AGAIN 17 hours in a crate is too long. If your dog is in a crate for 17 hours I am going to go a step further now, and just say straight up-then you are a horrible owner and shouldn't have ever got a dog. You don't like my opinion? I don't care, nor should you care about mine either because I don't know you anyhow. I just feel sorry for dogs treated this way, and you are right I won't change my opinion about that, unfortunately neither will the people who confine their dog for 17 plus hours.


Would it be ok to leave a dog alone (with free access of everything) for 17 hours alone in the house per day?




Germanshepherdlova said:


> People-train your dogs and you will both be much happier. Your dog won't need a crate, and you won't need to feel guilty and argue your point with a stranger.


Complete repetition of Lies' examples, but not always the case and not always possible.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

chelle said:


> Why does this seventeen hour thing keep being brought up?


Because that is nine hours while away at work, and then 8 hours throughout the night. It is what I consider way too long to keep a dog confined to a crate.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> And you are opened minded? :shocked:
> 
> I will restate myself AGAIN 17 hours in a crate is too long. If your dog is in a crate for 17 hours I am going to go a step further now, and just say straight up-then you are a horrible owner and shouldn't have ever got a dog. You don't like my opinion? I don't care, nor should you care about mine either because I don't know you anyhow. I just feel sorry for dogs treated this way, and you are right I won't change my opinion about that, unfortunately neither will the people who confine their dog for 17 plus hours.
> 
> People-train your dogs and you will both be much happier. Your dog won't need a crate, and you won't need to feel guilty and argue your point with a stranger.


**** Comment removed by MODERATOR. Personal snipping and swear-word acronym ****

Why are you harping on this this seventeen hour thing? Why so obsessed with that? Have you not read the thread? You ARE close-minded in this regard. I'm so glad your dogs are wonderful and perfect and you've never seen a need to crate train. That's terrific. Why are you so unable to see that there IS a need -- (responsibly done) for some dogs -- especially pups -- to be crated? WHY is this SO difficult for you to consider?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Would it be ok to leave a dog alone (with free access of everything) for 17 hours alone in the house per day?


Ummm, no-8-9 hours while at work is more than enough time alone.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Because that is nine hours while away at work, and then 8 hours throughout the night. It is what I consider way too long to keep a dog confined to a crate.


Ok. So now I see where you're getting the 17 thing. That's quite a generalization, though. Just because most work 8 hours a day doesn't mean they aren't providing a release -- some come home at lunch (as I do) or many others have friends, relatives, walkers, etc... Many don't crate at night (I don't). 

So really, can you stop and consider people's individual circumstances without just throwing the dumb 17 thing out there?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Alexandria610.

Thanks for at least attempting to get it back on track.

Somehow it's drifted to rescue dogs and dogs eating sofas.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Ladies:

I don't think wubba, the OP is going to want to visit the U.S. anytime soon if this keeps up.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Ladies:
> 
> I don't think wubba, the OP is going to want to visit the U.S. anytime soon if this keeps up.


lol, don't worry about it, I am ignoring her from this point forward.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> People-train your dogs and you will both be much happier. Your dog won't need a crate, and you won't need to feel guilty and argue your point with a stranger.


So apparently you've never had a dog with SA. For these dogs, (some not all) the crate is not a cage and it's not a punishment. It gives them a feeling of security, it lowers their stress level and it keeps them from hurting themselves when their owners aren't home.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> So apparently you've never had a dog with SA. For these dogs, (some not all) the crate is not a cage and it's not a punishment. It gives them a feeling of security, it lowers their stress level and it keeps them from hurting themselves when their owners aren't home.


No, I have been lucky. I can understand a dog like that being put in a crate, I just don't think it should be for more hours than what the owner is at work. If it makes the dog feel better, and the dog has that disorder then I understand. A puppy, I understand. But a normal dog locked up while the owner is at work or not, I don't understand.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> So apparently you've never had a dog with SA. For these dogs, (some not all) the crate is not a cage and it's not a punishment. It gives them a feeling of security, it lowers their stress level and it keeps them from hurting themselves when their owners aren't home.


I think that was covered about 30 or 40 posts ago. 

Crate the puppies, rescue dogs, health concerns, SA, aggressive, fearful, multiple, with cats and anything else I'm sure someone will come up with.
After eliminating all the special cases (like just stated ) then we can go back to America and crates.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I think that was covered about 30 or 40 posts ago.
> 
> Crate the puppies, rescue dogs, health concerns, SA, aggressive, fearful, multiple, with cats and anything else I'm sure someone will come up with.
> After eliminating all the special cases (like just stated ) then we can go back to America and crates.


I agree


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Because that is nine hours while away at work, and then 8 hours throughout the night. It is what I consider way too long to keep a dog confined to a crate.


well - that is why no one appointed you Boss - thank goodness that other people can have their own opinions

No one ever said it was ideal to crate that long - but there are worse things and you can't seem to understand that - instead acting like people who dont follow YOUR ideas are bad or wrong...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> well - that is why no one appointed you Boss - thank goodness that other people can have their own opinions
> 
> No one ever said it was ideal to crate that long - but there are worse things and you can't seem to understand that - instead acting like people who dont follow YOUR ideas are bad or wrong...


This is a post a wrote a few minutes ago-in case you overlooked it amongst all this other nonsense going on. This was in response to someone asking me if I had ever dealt with a dog who had SA.

No, I have been lucky. I can understand a dog like that being put in a crate, I just don't think it should be for more hours than what the owner is at work. If it makes the dog feel better, and the dog has that disorder then I understand. A puppy, I understand. But a normal dog locked up while the owner is at work or not, I don't understand.
__________________


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Soooooo.... how does everyone feel about crating their dogs? Anyone have any opinions on the subject?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Soooooo.... how does everyone feel about crating their dogs? Anyone have any opinions on the subject?


Sure. Where should we start?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> Sure. Where should we start?


Maybe start a thread and add a poll with a few options. I think that would be a good start.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Maybe start a thread and add a poll with a few options. I think that would be a good start.


Do we include special needs dogs? How do we define special needs?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Special needs, I'd say dogs with behavioral or physical issues (such as not able to control bowels).


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Wow! Lots of emotions here...

I will just throw in my experience, being a newbie to crates and dog training and such. Saber is almost 11 months old. She is crated at night from 11pm to 7am and she sleeps the whole time. She is crated at night because if she is not, she a)eats everything not nailed down and b)jumps in my bed and licks me at 2am, 3am, 4am...

As for daytime crating. I am home most of the day. I crate her if I am gone from home. I never leave her in there more and an hour or two without making sure someone comes after an hour and takes her out to play, pee, and get a drink for 20 minutes. If I left her out alone, she would get into things. Why? Because she is super smart, has a lot of drive IMO, wants to be busy all the time, even with 4+ hours of training and activity per day she would do mroe if I could give it. She will entertain herself with whatever she can find. Granted she is young and I hope by the time she is 2 or 3 she will be able to be trusted not to do that.

Also, when I am home I crate her sometimes. It is 9pm and she is in her crate right now, in my view, sound asleep upside down. She would be fine to be out of the crate and sleep on the couch but she seems to NEED to be crated to settle down sometimes. If I hadn't crated her at 8, she'd be pacing around, wanting to go out, trying to eat stuff she shouldn't. So after I had her outside, played and trained, I stuck her in there so she'd take a nap. And as soon as she raises her head up and looks at me I will be over there letting her out until 11 and she will be MUCH better behaved after that nap! Much like a toddler


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

cassadee7 said:


> As for daytime crating. I am home most of the day. I crate her if I am gone from home. I never leave her in there more and an hour or two without making sure someone comes after an hour and takes her out to play, pee, and get a drink for 20 minutes.


:thumbup:

You are a very thoughtful owner. Good for you that you have someone let her out every couple hours.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Ummm, no-8-9 hours while at work is more than enough time alone.


Then we don't get to sleep?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This argument will never end, unfortunately it's not a win/lose situation for humans. It's the crated dogs who loose. But alas, what can we do? I for one feel so sorry for dogs that are crated for anything more than 5 hours or so that I wish that I could block this entire thread, and any others like it-that way I wouldn't feel horrible just thinking about these dogs.


Don't worry, you don't need to feel sorry for Dante - He wasn't scarred for life by his crating when he was younger, in fact I'm at my mom's house for a few days and brought the travel crate with me. I looked for him earlier while mom and I were watching T.V. guess where he was. Yep, he'd come in here and put himself to bed in his crate even though his bed was out in the living room where we were.

Dante is a happy well loved, well adjusted dog and so will be my next dog, he too will be crate trained. 

Of course, if you'd like to send me an $40,000ish a year for the rest of my life, I'd love to quit my job and stay home all day!!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Barb E said:


> Don't worry, you don't need to feel sorry for Dante - He wasn't scarred for life by his crating when he was younger, in fact I'm at my mom's house for a few days and brought the travel crate with me. I looked for him earlier while mom and I were watching T.V. guess where he was. Yep, he'd come in here and put himself to bed in his crate even though his bed was out in the living room where we were.
> 
> Dante is a happy well loved, well adjusted dog and so will be my next dog, he too will be crate trained.
> 
> Of course, if you'd like to send me an $40,000ish a year for the rest of my life, I'd love to quit my job and stay home all day!!


Only $40,000? And then you will take them out of the crate forever???


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Special needs, I'd say dogs with behavioral or physical issues (such as not able to control bowels).


See here again I would disagree. I would not keep a dog that's going to soil kept in a crate. To me that is mean because unless one has the Taj Mahal of crates, the dog is going to soil itself and I think it is mean to make the dog do that just so the mess is more contained for the owner. If I have a sick dog, even a dog that is still in the process of being transitioned to free in the house for longer periods, I always leave the dog out of the crate. I'd rather have the dog pee or poop in one area and go sleep somewhere else than have to lie it in and then get themselves filthy.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Because that is nine hours while away at work, and then 8 hours throughout the night. It is what I consider way too long to keep a dog confined to a crate.


Love ya! Hard to have absolutes on this. Cause while the sound of 'my dog is crated for 17 hours' is kind of shocking...

I've done it to my puppies!

Cause I have to work. I have to sleep. And that ends up being the math UNTIL my pups are old enough to be out of their crates. Usually at night is first (whew, pull out 8 hours there  ) later the time at work. 

For me, it's not about the crate time IF I have 'a plan' for when I get home. And have to say, I don't feel sorry for my poor crated puppies. Cause I do WAY more with my sad abused crated :wild: puppies than many people do that keep their dogs in the yard or never crate!

Here's just a teeny bit of what they do when I am home, and (if I do say so my self) they seem to have recovered well from the 'abuse' 





 




 




 




 




 
And here's where both my GSD's are adults and (I think) show they are clearly recovering from their sad sad puppyhood. Best thing about this first one is look at where ALL the dogs are !!!!


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Those are fabulous, MaggieRoseLee. I got tired just watching your girls.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's OK MRL, you must just have those crazy psychotic type GSDs with physical and behavioral issues, because the real "German Shepherd dogs" flop around the house all day and all night...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> See here again I would disagree. I would not keep a dog that's going to soil kept in a crate. To me that is mean because unless one has the Taj Mahal of crates, the dog is going to soil itself and I think it is mean to make the dog do that just so the mess is more contained for the owner. If I have a sick dog, even a dog that is still in the process of being transitioned to free in the house for longer periods, I always leave the dog out of the crate. I'd rather have the dog pee or poop in one area and go sleep somewhere else than have to lie it in and then get themselves filthy.


I am not suggesting that the dog be created, we were discussing poll options and what a special needs dog could be defined as. I totally agree with you, that a dog who can't hold it shouldn't be crated.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Love ya! Hard to have absolutes on this. Cause while the sound of 'my dog is crated for 17 hours' is kind of shocking...
> 
> I've done it to my puppies!
> 
> ...


Wonderful videos. BTW, it has been clarified that puppies are not we are referring to when referring to crate abuse.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It's OK MRL, you must just have those crazy psychotic type GSDs with physical and behavioral issues, because the real "German Shepherd dogs" flop around the house all day and all night...


Ummmm, she has puppies! When speaking of crate abuse I am referring to dogs who are grown (don't have special issues) and are locked in crates for way too many hours a day…….17 hours-for example. (couldn't resist to add my annoying time frame in)lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does anyone here crate adults for 17 hours? Seriously I think this whole thread is just about passing judgments and pushing buttons. I doubt anyone crates a trained adult with no medical or behavioral problems for 17 hours....


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Liesje said:


> Does anyone here crate adults for 17 hours? Seriously I think this whole thread is just about passing judgments and pushing buttons. I doubt anyone crates a trained adult with no medical or behavioral problems for 17 hours....


I agree, I think all of us would agree that crates CAN be misused. But you have to take it on a case by case NOT an 'hourly' basis.

If I had an adult dog that destroyed the house when not monitored, it would be crated for 17 hours a day just like I have to do with my puppies. Any dog in my house 'earns' their way out of the crate. And if they are 5 yrs when they are left out or 5 months when left out, it's up to THEIR temperament and issues. *But the reason they would be crated would be for THEIR good, not because I was too lazy to train/exercise when I was home.*


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Does anyone here crate adults for 17 hours? Seriously I think this whole thread is just about passing judgments and pushing buttons. I doubt anyone crates a trained adult with no medical or behavioral problems for 17 hours....


Some people do, perhaps not the one's participating in this thread-but I KNOW that some do, and that is why I am trying to make it clear that it's not right. A well trained dog needs no crate whatsoever save for perhaps a medical reason or while being transported.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

So would you take away a crate from a "well trained" dog? For example, my Nikon is 3 years old. He has a large crate in the basement and the crate has a really nice bed (made of memory foam that *I* used to sleep on but it was too hot). He also keeps some bones and toys in there. Most of the time when I'm in the basement he goes in there to sleep or chew his bones. Pan has a crate too of the same size and similarly outfitted with his dog bedding and favorite toys. I presume the prefer their crates because they seem to respect that they have their own space. Nikon never goes into Pan's and vice versa so if they want to nap or chew a bone without being pestered by the other dogs in the house that is where they go. Personally I like that they each have their own personal space and all the dogs seem to understand and respect this. I suppose I could remove the crates just to prove that I am not an animal abuser but I don't see the point. There are a lot of things dogs don't "need" but I feel they should have if I can afford the money and space to provide it.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> So would you take away a crate from a "well trained" dog? For example, my Nikon is 3 years old. He has a large crate in the basement and the crate has a really nice bed (made of memory foam that *I* used to sleep on but it was too hot). He also keeps some bones and toys in there. Most of the time when I'm in the basement he goes in there to sleep or chew his bones. Pan has a crate too of the same size and similarly outfitted with his dog bedding and favorite toys. I presume the prefer their crates because they seem to respect that they have their own space. Nikon never goes into Pan's and vice versa so if they want to nap or chew a bone without being pestered by the other dogs in the house that is where they go. Personally I like that they each have their own personal space and all the dogs seem to understand and respect this. I suppose I could remove the crates just to prove that I am not an animal abuser but I don't see the point. There are a lot of things dogs don't "need" but I feel they should have if I can afford the money and space to provide it.


Your crates sound more like cozy beds, and if they are going in and out at will then obviously the crate is not shut. Nothing wrong with that, you are not locking up your trained dogs for hours. Again, I am not referring to good pet owners like you. I know some people who lock their dog up in a crate even when they are home, just so that they don't have to deal with him. The door to the crate is shut, and the dog is only taken out every so often to relieve himself-I am sorry if I have a poor image of crates, but because of the way that I have observed some people using them-I have refused to put my dog in one. 

When Brutus was a little puppy, I'd confine him to a portion of the lower level of my home, there is a hard floor down there and until he was house broken and outgrew the chewing phase, when I wasn't home that is where he would be. Then I'd drive home from class (speeding-lol) and keep him near me for the rest of the day. I am lucky to have this area in my home where I could keep him, because I do not like crates. I am also lucky that my husband makes enough $$$ where I don't have to work right now and have the time to do this outside of my 6 hours away to attend class, 3 days a week.

I know that people like many here have crates and do not abuse them, that is fine. I am against abusive use of crates.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

I actually feel much more sad for young, active, energetic dogs whose owners let them laze around the house all day, every day, no crates, and take them for a sedate leashed 45 minute walk twice a day and that's all the exercise they get.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Runswithdogs said:


> I actually feel much more sad for young, active, energetic dogs whose owners let them laze around the house all day, every day, no crates, and take them for a sedate leashed 45 minute walk twice a day and that's all the exercise they get.


So do I. Sad for the one you described, and horrible for the one who is treated this way and crated as well. And for the one that is not walked at all, crated or not crated, that is very sad. Believe it or not, some people never walk their dogs.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So do I. Sad for the one you described, and horrible for the one who is treated this way and crated as well. And for the one that is not walked at all, crated or not crated, that is very sad. Believe it or not, some people never walk their dogs.


But I bet they feed grain free........


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Your crates sound more like cozy beds, and if they are going in and out at will then obviously the crate is not shut. Nothing wrong with that, you are not locking up your trained dogs for hours. Again, I am not referring to good pet owners like you. I know some people who lock their dog up in a crate even when they are home, just so that they don't have to deal with him. The door to the crate is shut, and the dog is only taken out every so often to relieve himself-I am sorry if I have a poor image of crates, but because of the way that I have observed some people using them-I have refused to put my dog in one.


Oh I've put plenty of dogs in crates while I'm home! So you're OK with a crate but only if the door is open? 

I guess I just don't need to be that black and white (this number of hours, door open or shut, yadda yadda). I can't even say exactly how I use crates because it totally depends. Sometimes the dog goes for months without being crated (other than in the vehicle, non negotiable), but sometimes I crate the dogs while I'm cleaning, I crate them to dry after bathing/grooming, crate them to have company over, crate them so I can prop doors open and move something out of the house, crate them all with a raw bone so they aren't pestering each other, you name it. So yeah, I crate dogs *with the door shut* while I'm home. Horrors.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Hmmmm, shame on me for leaving my dog in a crate when I'm not home....shame on me for leaving my dog in my back yard when I'm not home...shame on me for not allowing the dogs to roam free in my home while I'm gone (I have windows that are floor to ceiling and have nighmares about them jumping through them)....

Well, it's settled then. When I get home tonight I'll tell hubby I must quit my job so I can stay home all day with the animals....wait, then I coudln't afford my house...then I'd have to move...then I'd have to live in an apartment or move in with my folks...then I'd have to re-home all of my animals..... 

Thank goodness I'm a mature adult who has raised, trained & mourned animals for most of my life. I'm thinking I pretty much must be doing something right.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Oh I've put plenty of dogs in crates while I'm home! So you're OK with a crate but only if the door is open?
> 
> I guess I just don't need to be that black and white (this number of hours, door open or shut, yadda yadda). I can't even say exactly how I use crates because it totally depends. Sometimes the dog goes for months without being crated (other than in the vehicle, non negotiable), but sometimes I crate the dogs while I'm cleaning, I crate them to dry after bathing/grooming, crate them to have company over, crate them so I can prop doors open and move something out of the house, crate them all with a raw bone so they aren't pestering each other, you name it. So yeah, I crate dogs *with the door shut* while I'm home. Horrors.


Do whatever you want with your dogs. This can be twisted and contorted into all sorts of things. My final stance-locking a dog up for many hours is wrong in my opinion. I am jumping off this merry go round because it's not even making sense anymore with all the but this and that and I this and I that. I don't care they are your dogs, my dogs and I are one thing, you and yours are another. As long as my dogs aren't being locked into crates for hours on end, I don't give a rats butt what people do. I have said what I said and once more- *Locking a dog into a crate for many hours on end is wrong! In my opinion. Peace, and I'm out.*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lilie said:


> Hmmmm, shame on me for leaving my dog in a crate when I'm not home....shame on me for leaving my dog in my back yard when I'm not home...shame on me for not allowing the dogs to roam free in my home while I'm gone (I have windows that are floor to ceiling and have nighmares about them jumping through them)....
> 
> Well, it's settled then. When I get home tonight I'll tell hubby I must quit my job so I can stay home all day with the animals....wait, then I coudln't afford my house...then I'd have to move...then I'd have to live in an apartment or move in with my folks...then I'd have to re-home all of my animals.....
> 
> Thank goodness I'm a mature adult who has raised, trained & mourned animals for most of my life. I'm thinking I pretty much must be doing something right.


Damned if you do, damned if you don't, right? If you use a crate with the door shut you're an animal abuser. If you leave your dogs free you're asking for serious trouble (dog fights, animal who has never touched anything one day swallowing something indigestible).

Oh horrors! He must hate my stinkin guts, right?









Yeah that's why I take him to Schutzhund (three phases) all day on Sunday, obedience/CGC class on Wednesday, SDA training (three phases) on Thursday, meet with friends during the week to track, do obedience, and socialize, and travel to dog events several times a month. Poor, crated soul! Certainly doesn't have herding, obedience, tracking, protection, dock diving, conformation shows, lure coursing, obedience class, agility, flyball to look forward to... I spent all that time and money driving him around three different states this weekend just to toss him in a crate and let him rot.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I wonder if Hoshi (lovebird) thinks I'm being cruel to Buddy (dog) since I have him in his crate while he is out of his cage....

Wait..this is a bird that likes to tease the dog, so probably not.


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Is it safer for a GSD to be in a crate while in a car, rather than in the backseat?

Joey's been riding in the backseat of the car, and he seems to enjoy it.

We just got a new SUV. The first time we were taking him for a ride, he went to the back of it, as if he was waiting to go in a crate. His former owner crated him while driving.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A well trained dog needs no crate whatsoever save for perhaps a medical reason or while being transported.


Baloney. How well trained your dog is has nothing to do with their innate personality and nature. I've have horrific destructive chewers that no amount of training would have made them completely safe _when I'm not there_, to dogs that were never destructive chewers, even as young puppies, and were completely safe left to their own devices - no training was necessary. Of the GSDs I've had for the past 25 years, Halo has by far had the most training, and I just took something away from her this morning so she wouldn't chew it. She'll be 3 years old in about a month. Cassidy was a horrible chewer when young, but she had grown out of it by this age, Halo still delights in stealing things to chew! Fortunately, she's never had a blockage from ingesting anything, but it could happen. She's taken Sirius Puppy 1 & 2, a CGC prep class, Family Dog 2, Basic Manners 2, two flyball class, and we start our next one this coming weekend. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours training her, but hey, she likes to chew! :wild:



Liesje said:


> Do you think that the answer is always training but never management? Just curious because some dogs will *never* be trained to the point where they can be free in a home and not get into trouble. I do not think a dog's confinement is always an indicator of how much time and effort the owner has put into training. A dog in a crate, to me, is not "untrained" it's just not reliable in the house. Same could be said for outdoor dogs, kennel dogs, etc.


Absolutely. A certain amount of management is prudent, not only to protect your belongings, but also for the health and safety of THE DOG. I can certainly train my dogs to behave when I'm around, but I'm curious how you'd train a dog not to chew stuff they're not supposed to when they're unsupervised? 



Germanshepherdlova said:


> I guess that the few of us who don't crate then have some pretty awesome dogs because they don't break things or get into stuff and can be trusted to stay loose in the house while we are gone.


Yep, I had one of those dogs - Dena could be trusted with shoes left laying around the house even at 3 or 4 months old, even throughout teething. She was just easy, and _good_, we didn't have to work on it, that's just who she was, so I can't take credit for it. 

I don't leave my dogs crated all day because they do spend the night in crates in our bedroom. If they're not already in there waiting for me to come close the doors, they'll go in as soon as I walk into the bedroom. But I do confine them, we have a 6 x 8 chain link pen in the garage with a dog door to an outside run. I have cats and there is no way I'd EVER leave them all alone together when I'm not here. And I see no reason to leave my dogs loose in the house anyway, even if I thought they were trustworthy, because you never know for sure that they're not until something goes wrong. I'm not willing to put my dogs at risk.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cheerful1 said:


> Is it safer for a GSD to be in a crate while in a car, rather than in the backseat?
> 
> Joey's been riding in the backseat of the car, and he seems to enjoy it.
> 
> We just got a new SUV. The first time we were taking him for a ride, he went to the back of it, as if he was waiting to go in a crate. His former owner crated him while driving.


Before I had a crate setup in my previous car, I installed a make-shift dog barrier between the two front seats so the dogs wouldn't drool on us. One day I was driving along minding my own business going 50mph in a 50mph zone when someone cut me off almost at a stop and I slammed on my brakes so hard my dog knocked the barrier out of place but had I not had that, she would have either taken me out or gone through the windshield or both. After that, I put a crate in the car and have always used crates ever since. Not worth the risk to the dog and to yourself and your passengers. JMHO You can be the most careful person on the planet but you are only responsible for yourself, you cannot prevent some idiot or drunk swerving at you and having to slam on the brakes.

If you do have a crate it's important to make sure the crate itself is secure and can't roll around or fly around in the vehicle. Because of the smaller size of my vehicle, my crates are wedged in and popped up into place in such a way that they can't move anywhere but in a bigger vehicle I would work out a way to secure the crate.

I also need the crate for when it's warm, so I can leave windows open for ventilation but have the dog secure (I have locks on my crates and you can't remove the crates unless you steal the vehicle, which in my case is parked in a private security patrolled lot so it's more likely someone would break into my locked home and harass my dogs than steal them from my vehicle since I do not live in a gated community but work on a private campus).

My vehicle crates have dog bedding, water pails, and I add bones/toys for road trips.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Hmmmm, shame on me for leaving my dog in a crate when I'm not home....shame on me for leaving my dog in my back yard when I'm not home...shame on me for not allowing the dogs to roam free in my home while I'm gone (I have windows that are floor to ceiling and have nighmares about them jumping through them)....
> 
> Well, it's settled then. When I get home tonight I'll tell hubby I must quit my job so I can stay home all day with the animals....wait, then I coudln't afford my house...then I'd have to move...then I'd have to live in an apartment or move in with my folks...then I'd have to re-home all of my animals.....
> 
> Thank goodness I'm a mature adult who has raised, trained & mourned animals for most of my life. I'm thinking I pretty much must be doing something right.


Off Topic Warning:
Don't laugh Lilie, some of the rescue groups I've heard of won't adopt out dogs unless someone is home with them.....
End of Off Topic warning:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

When my male was a puppy and while I was at work during the day my boyfriend at the time was unemployed for the first 7 months of my male's life so he wasn't in the crate during the day but after my boyfriend went back to work my male was crated during the day. He earned his freedom to roam free around my room when he was 8 or 9 months old. He did not have free roam of the house while I was away until he turned 2 years old.

Up until last week my female was not crated during the day because she was with my ex, but now she is crated while I am at work and she is crated at night when I am sleeping.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I can certainly train my dogs to behave when I'm around, but I'm curious how you'd train a dog not to chew stuff they're not supposed to when they're unsupervised?


I really am curious, maybe someone can explain exactly how they trained their dog not to chew things when nobody was around.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I really am curious, maybe someone can explain exactly how they trained their dog not to chew things when nobody was around.


Just assuming here, but it's probably meant the dog is completely trained when the owner is around that it can be completely trusted not be destructive when the owner is gone and the dog is not trained.

Now if you really want to get into training while not there. Maybe a long distance e-collar and some strategically placed video cameras would be how you'd go about doing that.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

CarrieJ said:


> Off Topic Warning:
> Don't laugh Lilie, some of the rescue groups I've heard of won't adopt out dogs unless someone is home with them.....
> End of Off Topic warning:


Just another good reason why I should have married for money...drat...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Good question Debbie. Two of mine don't (well, unless I leave food items out but that's asking for it) but both of them were dogs that went through multiple homes and I adopted as adults and both were/are also crate trained so I didn't have to do any work with them being loose in the house. Nikon was fine in the whole house for a while but then he decided that pulling my books off the shelf is fun. He doesn't necessarily ruin them, just pulls them all off. So, now if I am gone for a long time he is gated and has the entire basement (finished and unfinished part), upstairs hall, kitchen, and breakfast nook so he has 1.5 floors of the house but no access to book shelves. If I'm not gone that long I gate him in the basement or just crate him since he usually goes in there in the morning on his own. I used a crate as a puppy (but either went home, paid someone to go to my house, or kept him in my van kennel at work so he always got let out and played with during the day) and just slowly transitioned the amount of time in the crate vs. out starting with short trips like me running errands, dentist apt. etc and slowly earned his freedom. Pan being 2 years younger is not as far along in this process.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lucy Dog said:


> Just assuming here, but it's probably meant the dog is completely trained when the owner is around that it can be completely trusted not be destructive when the owner is gone and the dog is not trained.


Yeah, I think that probably is what she meant, but I totally disagree with her premise. Dogs are opportunists and they understand context. And some dogs are just more likely to chew than others. I can no more be blamed for the fact that Halo is a chewer than I can take credit for Dena or Keefer not being chewers.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yeah, I think that probably is what she meant, but I totally disagree with her premise. Dogs are opportunists and they understand context. And some dogs are just more likely to chew than others. I can no more be blamed for the fact that Halo is a chewer than I can take credit for Dena or Keefer not being chewers.


You're preaching to the choir. I'm definitely pro-crate... no doubt about it. 

A crate keeps them safe and it keeps them feeling safe when used properly. People just tend to humanize dogs. They think putting them in a crate is like putting them in prison, but it's anything but that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Like Nikon, he was fine free in the house at 8 months and then at 2.5 years decided to make messes. When I am home, he is either sleeping at my feet or we are doing something together, never being bad or making a mess. If he needs something to do while I'm gone I'd rather confine him and give him a bone or toy to work on.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't think you can train dogs specifically to not chew. 
I have always had decent fenced yards or kennels or both. That is where my dogs went and still do for 50+ years of raising dogs. 
I never had one hurt, poisened, stolen, or harmed in any way.
The dog I have now was crate trained as a puppy and sleeps by his choice in a crate at night.
I have had one or more dogs for this length of time and they all appear to have been healthy and happy.
My neighbor keeps his two Labs in crates in the garage while his wife and he work. Then they sleep in their crates at night.
I personally find that disturbing. Obviously lots of people are on the same page as my neighbor. They like their choice I like mine.
I guess my opinion, according to Liesje is judgemental.
I think it is just an opinion and the forums are all about opinions.
There is a thread that keeps coming back regularly on what dog do you dislike. That is full of peoples opinions on various dogs. I think it is a useless thread and have never responded to it. There are lots of opinions though and if you have one of the disliked dogs, should you care. No.
There are lots of threads where a person can get advice which they may take or leave. 
This type of thread will never arrive at any conclusion because it is opinion only.
What I've been doing works for me. So People who crate all day and or night are not going to change what has been working for many years for me, and I'm not going to change them.
The thread has certainly gotten entertaining at times though.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Hmmmm.... I guess I'm a horrible person as well..... I work, I have errands I need to run here and there, and sometimes I like to go out and catch a movie/dinner/few drinks with my boyfriend and/or friends (So I can keep myself sane and not go stir crazy).... and Zira is most definitely in her kennel (doors closed) during that time. And to top it all off... I SLEEP every night!!!!  Oh my, poor Zira is so tortured....

Do I feel bad? .... no, I don't. 

And here's why: For one, she is a young adult/puppy... she gets into EVERYTHING and eats everything she can get her mouth on. She chases the cats non stop if we're not watching her (just playing and she's gotten a lot better with it, but still not fair to the cats). We have two old Golden Retrievers here (12 years old), and I don't trust her alone with them.... she wants to play, but they don't want to be stepped on, nibbled, paw smacked, and licked in their face 24/7. I don't want anyone getting hurt. Also, we have some furniture here that is very old, and very valuable, as well as being passed down through the family.... if she was alone, she would destroy them.... and that's a problem. I also don't want her getting into any of the cleaners I use around the house while I'm cleaning, and I really don't want her helping me when I'm trying to dust, or sweep/mop the floors.

However, after her kennel torture.... when I am home (the majority, if not ALL, of the day), she is right up my rear end and gets ALL of my attention. She gets ALL my money on whatever she could possibly need, any toys she wants. We go on long walks every night after work and sometimes twice a day, we have weekly lunches with friends and their dogs so that she can socialize and play. She goes out to PetSmart and outdoor malls a few times a week. I take her to "play dates" with friends dogs, and sometimes small dog parks with them. I take her out front to play all the time. She goes EVERYWHERE with me that allows dogs. Also, when I know I'm not going to be home much during the day, whether it be long days at work or going out somewhere.... I have friends/family that come over and take her out, play with her, feed her when I need them to, and let her run around a bit. She is never in her crate more then 8 hours at one time. 

So.... 8 or so hours at night, then 4-5 days a week, 5-8hrs each, while I'm at work. I don't see that as anything terrible. When she can prove to me that I can trust her around the house (When she matures), then she will roam free (most of the time) in the house. Until then, YES my dog is crated when no one is around to watch her. When she's out, she never sleeps, so when she's in her crate that's exactly what she does.... SLEEPS. She is not in there tossing and turning, or crying.

NO, I do not see this as abuse. This is how I've raised all my dogs... and considering ALL of them have been the happiest, most loving, well trained dogs.... AND they all live to mid/high teens with perfect health.... I absolutely do not see any problem with it. I have responsibilities as an adult... and sometimes Zira can't be with me. While some others may be lucky enough to not work, or have the ability to leave their dog is a small space in the house and not worry about damage or health risks..... I'm not one of those, I'm part of the majority... I can't afford to repair things all the time, I can not quit my job, or become more of an insomniac.... at that point, I'd have nothing, which means my pets would have nothing.... So is the crate such a horrible choice? No.

There IS a point to where the crate can become abusive, and I am sure many people out there do so.... but, I think the level at which you are pushing is a bit harsh. How can you expect everyone, and every dog to do well with what you are suggesting? Every dog has a different temperament, and every person has a different set of responsibilities and needs.... not to mention, different schedules.

I'm not changing how I use my crate with Zira. She's not traumatized, and I am able to carry on with daily, mature, adult life. It's what works for us. Everyone has their own opinions... agree to disagree.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> You're preaching to the choir. I'm definitely pro-crate... no doubt about it.
> 
> A crate keeps them safe and it keeps them feeling safe when used properly. People just tend to humanize dogs. They think putting them in a crate is like putting them in prison, but it's anything but that.


 I think you humanize them when you say they feel safe in a crate. You don't know what they feel. It's about what you feel. Like I said before unless you are a dog psychic you don't know what your dogs feel in the crate any more than I do when my dog is in his kennel.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I think you humanize them when you say they feel safe in a crate. You don't know what they feel. It's about what you feel. Like I said before unless you are a dog psychic you don't know what your dogs feel in the crate any more than I do when my dog is in his kennel.


Sorry to jump in here but I think they do see it as their safe place, or at least a place where they want to be. 

Even after my male got freedom from his crate at night, he still slept in it with the door open, even though he had a soft doggy bed and he could lay anywhere in my room, he still chose to sleep in his crate.

Even though he can roam around the whole house while I am at work he still chooses to sleep in his crate, I have surprised him before when he was in a deep sleep and found him laying in his crate.

So it's not torture.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> I think you humanize them when you say they feel safe in a crate. You don't know what they feel. It's about what you feel. Like I said before unless you are a dog psychic you don't know what your dogs feel in the crate any more than I do when my dog is in his kennel.


Have you ever owned a dog with fear of thunderstorms or any loud noises? I had one who was scared to death of thunderstorms and fireworks. The second he heard even the slightest noise that resembled a firework or some thunder, he'd bolt directly into his crate. No barking, no whining, he'd just bolt into his crate and curl up in a ball. 

Any idea why he did that? Why would he choose his crate of all places to hide?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Have you ever owned a dog with fear of thunderstorms or any loud noises? I had one who was scared to death of thunderstorms and fireworks. The second he heard even the slightest noise that resembled a firework or some thunder, he'd bolt directly into his crate. No barking, no whining, he'd just bolt into his crate and curl up in a ball.
> 
> Any idea why he did that? Why would he choose his crate of all places to hide?


If the crate wasn't there he still would have found some place to hide.
If my dog had that problem he would probably run to his kennel. So what.

I don't know what would have happened to your dog when I grew up because family companion owners didn't have crates.

Paul: I know you are a crate person. That's fine for you. 
There is just nothing scientific about the opinions expressed on this thread, including mine.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> If the crate wasn't there he still would have found some place to hide.
> If my dog had that problem he would probably run to his kennel. So what.


That's the point right there. You asked me how I knew he felt safe in his crate and I gave you a perfect example of when he was scared and where he chose to feel safe - his crate. 

For your example, your dog must feel safe in his kennel, if that's where he chose to go in that situation. 

That's how we know how they feel without being "dog psychics".


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad, I actually favor nice kennel setups (depending on climate, there are times it gets so cold here I would not be comfortable with the kennel unless I had a dog like a Malamute). If having such a large kennel was not an option for you would you do something else or not own dogs? Just curious.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's the point right there. You asked me how I knew he felt safe in his crate and I gave you a perfect example of when he was scared and where he chose to feel safe - his crate.
> 
> For your example, your dog must feel safe in his kennel, if that's where he chose to go in that situation.
> 
> That's how we know how they feel without being "dog psychics".


I consider that to be what they are trained and familiar with. 

Why does my dog pick up on when I'm taking him with me as opposed to leaving him home? Is it because he feels going with me is more safe? Is it because feels excitement? Is it that he feels he would rather be with me than alone? When I tell him I'll be back he knows that he is not going with me and will lay back down or go on with what he is doing. What are his feelings in that moment. **** I don't know or care. He and I have things worked out pretty well and that's what I care about.

Liesje.

If my only option was to always crate because I had no other choice I would probably not own a dog. If somewhere in between a kennel, large fenced yard or crate. Say a very small yard, I would get a different type dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What about just keeping the dog in the house?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's funny how different people can be even across breeds/boards. I am on another board (not GSD) where people like to crucify those like me who leave multiple dogs free in the house NOT crated. They will tell all these horror stories about dogs who got along suddenly killing each other, eating the couch, digging through a wall, etc and if a new member asks they will almost insist that the dog be crated and never left out in the house unsupervised. They would also say a kennel is cruel because the dog is left outside away from the owner and family rather than being part of the family.

I don't really agree with *any* of that but it's almost the total opposite of what people say here.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It's funny how different people can be even across breeds/boards. I am on another board (not GSD) where people like to crucify those like me who leave multiple dogs free in the house NOT crated. They will tell all these horror stories about dogs who got along suddenly killing each other, eating the couch, digging through a wall, etc and if a new member asks they will almost insist that the dog be crated and never left out in the house unsupervised. They would also say a kennel is cruel because the dog is left outside away from the owner and family rather than being part of the family.
> 
> I don't really agree with *any* of that but it's almost the total opposite of what people say here.


Mine has the option of going in or out in good weather. I live in Calif. so good weather is most of the year around. I have no problem with my dogs loose in the house. I had a GSD mix female who passed over a year+ ago. She and Jack stayed in the house together often. 
She always preferred to sleep outside. Don't know why. She slept outside until she got older and then I kept her in because of arthritis of the spine. Oh and yes she then became crated at night so she wouldn't get hurt. I forgot about that,so score one for the "crate people".


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I too would love to hear how people trained their dog not to eat/chew stuff when they are not home. I am new to training dogs so would love to hear tips!

I also wonder how many of the people who leave dogs roaming free have low drive, quieter type dogs vs. high drive, high energy working type dogs. I bet that makes a difference in the need to crate. Some dogs are content to sleep or look out the windows for hours but others seem to really need to be doing something or have activity and stimulation or they make up stimulation for themselves. I may have missed some of this in this (long) thread but for those of you with, say, Schutzhund dogs leave them free in the house for many hours? Maybe maturity and ability to settle comes with age. Just thinking out loud here.

Saber also has insane food drive. Insane! If there is so much as a crumb on a surface in this house she WILL find a way to get it including jumping in one leap with all fours from floor to counter. Yes she is trained not to do that, she is trained that it is not ok to put paws or nose on a table or counter, but I think some primitive part of her brain takes over sometimes and shouts FOOD FOOD FOOD! and she can hardly stand it. She also likes to eat paper products so if I were to leave her out for 30 mintues while I run errands, I am sure I'd come home to my daughter's art eaten off the bulletin board and fridge, all the paper towels eaten, books shredded, etc. She doesn't do it when I am home, but I think the sheer boredom of being here alone would drive her to look for something 'fun' to do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it just depends on the dog. My dogs have great food drive, but will leave bags of chips alone within their reach. We have a food cabinet that they can easily access and they leave it alone.

Never counter-surf, though we don't leave food out on counters.
I wonder if raw feeding has anything to do with it? Crunchy type food isn't that much of a draw for them, but the do love Peanutbutter Cap'n crunch(my African Greys daily treat). 

Never shred pillows or crate pads either. Though plush toys get gutted immediately.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Never shred pillows or crate pads either. Though plush toys get gutted immediately.


Ha, Saber is methodical. She is very nice to her stuffed toys until there is a loose thread. When she finds a loose thread, she pulls it and works on it very carefully with her teeth until she can get a seam open a little, and then she very carefully pulls out all the stuffing through that little hole!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cassadee7 said:


> I also wonder how many of the people who leave dogs roaming free have low drive, quieter type dogs vs. high drive, high energy working type dogs. I bet that makes a difference in the need to crate. Some dogs are content to sleep or look out the windows for hours but others seem to really need to be doing something or have activity and stimulation or they make up stimulation for themselves. I may have missed some of this in this (long) thread but for those of you with, say, Schutzhund dogs leave them free in the house for many hours? Maybe maturity and ability to settle comes with age. Just thinking out loud here.


Good question. I distinctly remember Cliff saying once that a pup he had bred and kept back was able to be left out of the crate at 4 or 5 months old.

Kopper is NOT a low drive or quiet dog, and he is free in the house. We walk 2 miles in the morning, play ball when I get home, and walk another 2 miles in the evening in addition to agility practice. And I really think that having Rocky there is kind of a soothing/supervisory presence. I know that sounds weird but I think he'd be more destructive alone than with Rocky there.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Neither of my dogs were crated and are not crated now. Both are free to roam the house, they are given food water, love, attention, and exercise. I have never had an issue with either dog being left alone in the house. My dogs are smart enough to know NOT to get into anything, and we have trained them what is off limits and what is ok. We have boxes of clothing and other boxes and the dogs do NOT touch them. Neither dog is a "chewer". My dogs are trained NOT to chew on things they are NOT supposed to chew. Well my dogs also don't find chewing on things entertaining, unless its a chew toy, but they hardly like those anyways. The only time my dogs went to the bathroom in the house was when we were potty training Molly, otherwise that is pretty much it. I am able to trust my dogs to leave things alone inside the house and not destroy things. I was able to train my dogs to behave in the house properly. No my dogs are not humanized either, they know they are dogs and know their place. And don't give me the "What if they get into something", I am not dumb enough to leave stuff that is hazardous to my dogs lying around. We have never had the need to crate trained, let alone the need for crates at all. Obviously, we did a pretty darn good job of training the dogs as they aren't destroying the house, tearing up furniture, getting into things they aren't supposed too, drink out of the toliet, etc. Yes, my dogs have their moments where they misbehave, my dogs are not perfect and I don't expect them to be. I am able to trust my dogs enough to let them roam the house freely. Obviously, if they did anyone of those things, the dogs would need more training. The ONLY thing Molly LOVES to chew is the rope toys, and she tears those things to shreds, but otherwise, she chews on nothing.

I am NOT against crate training or anyone who does as long as they do it PROPERLY. I would crate train if need be. I am against irresponsible dog owners.I am NOT saying that everyone who crate trains is evil and can't trust their dogs or their dogs are untrained etc. Majority of it is a case by case.

Here are my dogs:
























He is on his blanket.


















































Believe it or not, neither dog has torn up a bed, couch or lounge chair. We got a new lounge chair, Tanner will be very happy!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess for me have a *perfectly* behaved dog in my house is not a priority. I actually kind of like that my dogs will eat my food because I toss them leftovers and stuff I don't want to finish. Keeping a house "dog proof" helps me keep things clean and uncluttered and maybe is good practice for someday having to step it up a notch and kid proof.

We all have behaviors we can or cannot live with. Maybe we project this onto the dogs somehow? For example, I don't care one way or the other about counter surfing but I do not tolerate the nippy, mouthy landshark behavior even from puppies. I don't like dogs ripping at my skin and pants and it annoys me to no end. In the last 3 years all three puppies I've had have not done this despite half-siblings and littermates being described as landsharks, vampires, etc, even one puppy in Nikon's litter had to be rehomed at 10 weeks because of the mouthy behavior and he never once put his teeth on me like that. How do I get ones that don't do it even though I don't make a point of correcting or redirecting it? Who knows.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I guess for me have a *perfectly* behaved dog in my house is not a priority. I actually kind of like that my dogs will eat my food because I toss them leftovers and stuff I don't want to finish. Keeping a house "dog proof" helps me keep things clean and uncluttered and maybe is good practice for someday having to step it up a notch and kid proof.
> 
> We all have behaviors we can or cannot live with. Maybe we project this onto the dogs somehow? For example, I don't care one way or the other about counter surfing but I do not tolerate the nippy, mouthy landshark behavior even from puppies. I don't like dogs ripping at my skin and pants and it annoys me to no end. In the last 3 years all three puppies I've had have not done this despite half-siblings and littermates being described as landsharks, vampires, etc, even one puppy in Nikon's litter had to be rehomed at 10 weeks because of the mouthy behavior and he never once put his teeth on me like that. How do I get ones that don't do it even though I don't make a point of correcting or redirecting it? Who knows.


We give our dogs leftovers, but we don't let them countersurf(Not saying you do), but my mother would have a heart attack!lol. Molly once was able to get ahold of 4 porkchops and eat them without use knowing. Hence why she is a ninja. Now we have to put food we want out of reach of the dogs, if we didn't want the food we would put in their dish.

Molly was a landshark, but we always redirected her biting with chew toys. And eventually she turned out ok.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Liesje said:


> I guess for me have a *perfectly* behaved dog in my house is not a priority. I actually kind of like that my dogs will eat my food because I toss them leftovers and stuff I don't want to finish. Keeping a house "dog proof" helps me keep things clean and uncluttered and maybe is good practice for someday having to step it up a notch and kid proof.


So true. I always brag about how good my pup is in the house, except for this one time when we went to visit a person that had about five little small wastebaskets that were full of candy wrappers and kleenex. . . . you can well imagine how I spent that visit.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The way I see it I already feel bad enough having to work full time, as a dog owner I can choose between spending a lot of time trying to train my dog to not do this or that, or I can just manage the environment so they CANT do this or that and use that time playing fetch or taking an agility class or something that's really fun and valuable. I don't know whether my dogs counter surf b/c I don't leave food on the counter but I can only assume that if I did a dog would take it!


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Re: countersurfing, funny thing, we never leave food on the counters but the smell of food is there apparently and I guess at some point in the past she found a crumb up there which is why she keeps trying!

I just cleaned her crate, btw, and have it shut to air dry and she just walked over, looked in her crate, tried to open it with her paw and when she couldn't go in she whined and stared at me. "Big meanie not letting me in my crate!" lol...

Another thought. If I have to go back to work full time at some point I would hate it but would find someone to let her out a couple times a day. If for some reason I was unable to have someone do that I would NOT feel like a bad owner or rehome my dog! I would crate if need be. I would just make the very best of the time we DID have together and make sure we spent evenings and weekends doing lots of good activities and exercise together.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My friend used crates for her dogs, but the way her brother was toward the dogs, I would prefer the crate.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

And speaking of the Taj Mahal of crates...

This is where Niko sleeps at night/stays when we are not home:









Pretty much the biggest crate on the market. So no, I don't feel bad about leaving him in there all night, or for a couple hours during the day if we leave the house.

I think putting your potty trained dog in the biggest crate you can fit into your house if you need to keep him confined and safe when you aren't home/awake is not immoral/unethical.

For a lot of people, this is the only option if they want to own a dog. And the last I checked, it was a free country. It might not be 100% ideal to everyone on this forum, but we're human. Diversity happens.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Leah, Kaiser has the same one! (back right)









I can get in it and lay down with him comfortably so no, I don't feel bad leaving him in it all day while I work (though he is loose at night). You can even see a little of where he ripped the arm of my sofa when I did leave him out.

The only time I felt bad crating was a foster who was stuck in the smaller crate (on the left) but was twice the size of Kaiser. After 2 days of feeling bad, I gated the foster in my tiny hallway instead.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have airline crates for traveling in the back of my Explorer.

Half an airline crate if I have to travel with a dog in the Honda. 

I have wire crates in my home. 

Crates and Kennels are different. A crate gives a dog room to stand up, lay down, and turn around. It is especially useful for housebreaking if the pup has not been forced to lie where he eliminates and urinates, and is by nature clean, and the trainer/owner does not use the tool for longer than the pup can hold it or when the pup is ill. A kennel on the other hand, is larger, the dog can run, can find various places to lie and be comfortable, and can drink and eliminate. If the dog is totally alone -- either crated or kenneled, many hours is harder than if you have the dog crated and another dog or cat present, crated or loose in the room, or if you have the dog kenneled next to other dogs. There is less problem behavior, perhaps because the dog is not as bored, doesn't feel abandoned, or simply that it feels more confident if there is another critter who is not spazzing out, it is not all alone. 

All of my puppies start off with airline crates disassembled and in their play yards:









They actually love the little crates and they are not shut in them at all:









When we travel to the vet, they are in airline crates with several of their littermates for the trip:









The trip into the building does not freak them out because they are together, even though they are in a small crate-like enclosure:


















It is amazing that not one of the ten six-week-old puppies had an accident in the crates, enroute or while they were at the vet's. I have not had any accidents getting them to puppy classes either, without ever being locked in a crate, they seem to get it not to potty in them. 

All of the dogs I keep beyond young puppies, will learn to spend the night in a crate first, then, they will be given the run of my bedroom at night. Thanks to Milla, I may never have another pair of slippers, but most of them never attack anything of mine. Rushie ate the book I was borrowing from my dad. Most of them have kidnapped my little bear that plays Jesus Loves Me, and held it hostage, but for some unknown reason, they have never molested the bear. Their own stuffed toys are usually gutted and debarked. 

When they are safe in my bedroom, I give them access to other parts of the house on occasion. 

I do have multiple bitches and do not let them all in all the time, but all are ok in the house. 

I have the wire crates for adult dogs in case a dog needs to be kept quiet or fast -- medical, in case they are wet and I need them to dry off before I let them in, occasionally for sleeping at night. But for the most part my dogs are kenneled outside when I am not home. A few have indoor/outdoor runs. I personally do not feel there is anything in my home that they need when I am not there. And I think it is dangerous. If they saw a reason to go through the windows in the front of the house, they could seriously injure themselves, and be loose with all the perils of the world. 

The kennels in back are kept free of things likely to cause blockages, poisoning and the like, but I also live where it is very unlikely for anyone to try to do anything to my dogs or steal them. Not impossible, but not probable. And if they want them that badly, getting to them inside my house, especially if they were crated would be a whole lot easier. 

People need to do what works for them and their dog to keep the dog safe first.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One problem(about the only) having my dogs loose in the house unsupervised, is when someone comes to the door.
Kacie and Onyx go to the door and bark, & jump up on it. I don't have blinds on the door, I use an ornamental flag(seasonal, so it changes) as a bit of a visual barrier. But the door is scratched up. I can't imagine anyone standing there ringing the bell when we aren't home and dogs on the other side of the glass, it happens more than I like.

They hate the UPS or FedX guy,too and they deliver the goods on the bench by the door, even though we ask them to put the deliveries on the side of the garage. 

We get deliveries almost daily....not always the same driver so they don't pass that info along.


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> People need to do what works for them and their dog to keep the dog safe first.


Word. 

I love the idea of using disassembled crates as little "caves" for the pups.

The picture of your puppies in the wire crate is unreasonably cute.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

I use a crate during puppy hood, in the car, at shows, and right now at work for my 2 year old as he can't be trusted out of it at the front counter. Let's say he's an excellent guard dog, lol. 

I did have my youngest in a crate at night until a couple months ago.. He was sleeping sound in the wire crate and suddenly I woke up to him screaming. He had gotten his foot caught somehow and popped his elbow out. After that incident I decided it was worth losing important things in my room over that happening again. He has slept out since and everything is safe still. I trust him sleeping out in my room. He's still recovering, it's gonna be a long process of short walks... I hate wire crates now.

But he still stays in a crate whenever I leave if I do. I have cats and he has major prey drive. I'd like to come home to live cats.. But my dogs get walked every day. 

Cody and Isa haven't been in a crate for years and years except when in the car.

Before Akbar was injured he stayed a lot in the kennel outside. It's big and he can lay, walk, play, lay in a kiddie pool for summer, etc in it. I liked having him in there then in a crate when I was gone. But it'll have to wait till he's recoverd as he's not allowd to jump or run.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How did Akbar get injured?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

John, this is an 11 year old thread! 😮

Just to give my 2 cent's worth. Crate training should start before a puppy goes to its new home. You cannot expect a puppy to not get into mischief or pee on the floor when you don't have your eyes on it/aren't at home.

By the time Eska came to me around 12 weeks, she was fully crate trained, Now as an adult, she spend a good part of the day lounging in her crate with the door open. 

I have to close the door at night, because she likes to play with the cat in the wee hours, and I' don't appreciate the noise!


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