# Drive vs. Energy vs. Neurotic



## mycobraracr

It's seems that in almost every thread people talk about there "high drive" dog. I have a really hard time believing that every GSD on this forum is high drive. That is just statistically not possible especially given the different lines these come from. That makes me think that we don't truly have an understanding of drive. Or what it means to have a "high drive" dog. I truly think people confuse energy (which our breed should have lots of), drive, and a dog that is just neurotic. Maybe have a screw that's not tightened all the way. So I was hoping we could discuss some of this. 

1) How can you tell the difference between drive, energy and neurotic?
2) What is "drive"? 
I lost my train of thought so hopefully this will get us started.


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## JakodaCD OA

> I truly think people confuse energy (which our breed should have lots of), drive, and a dog that is just neurotic


I agree with that^^.

I also think drive/energy/neurotic can mean different things to people.

In Masi, for me, I see high 'play drive', med to low prey drive, alot of energy, (can go all day and keep on going) but not "neurotic" to the point of obsession..

I'm sure others can put it into words better than I


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## Pooky44

I have seen dogs with high ball drive that will go until they drop.
Is that neurotic or drive?
My dog goes until she's panting(but not heavily) and her tongue is hanging only a little.
I consider that low/medium drive and SMART.


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## martemchik

All those things are very subjective...

They depend on the person's experience, amount of dogs seen, and mostly the extremes that they have witnessed.

For a while I thought my dog was high drive...I train at a mostly ASL AKC GSDCA club. So of course my working line boy had more drive than many of the dogs he trained with. I then went to a Schutzhund trial and saw some dogs work...most were very balanced with no over the top drive per my observations. I then realized my boy was probably somewhere in the middle when it came to drive and was probably hindered by the fact that I never properly developed his drive (didn't know what drive was at the time).

I've also seen some over the top drive dogs...one that comes to mind had absolutely ZERO focus though. Absolutely no food drive or praise drive. The owner couldn't get the dog to do anything. Ended up giving her back to the breeder as she just wasn't cut out to deal with a dog like that.

Its funny though, just yesterday I was reading through some puppy threads and had to chuckle when people write "X has absolutely wonderful temperament for being our first dog." It's like...how do you know what good temperament is when this is just your first dog?

It all comes down to subjectivity based on experience.


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## Shade

I suppose I look at drive from a human perspective as the compulsion to do something. So a dog with high ball drive like Delgado will go bonkers and do just about anything for the ball, while a dog with low ball drive may refuse to fetch as it's just not interesting to them. The higher the drive, the higher the compulsion to complete the task.

Energy is self-explanatory, how much exercise and stimulation does the dog need before it runs out and needs to rest. 

Neurotic dogs cannot "turn off" because their brains are wired to GO GO GO until they literally drop from exhaustion. They need that off switch taught and management done just like a human with OCD

JMO


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## Discoetheque

A dog who "can't settle down" and whose drive level appears inappropriate for what the current situation calls for, I would call "neurotic".

Drive is not just the ability and the will to do. To me, "drive" is balance. It's a dog who has nerve and will, but is balanced enough to adjust it to what the situation needs. The "on/off" switch that people often talk about. Those are the dogs who don't waste energy unnecessarily. 

A jittery dog who is bouncing all over the house even after a day's work (whatever that work may be), who obviously WANT to lay down and rest but for whatever reason just can't seem to... I would call neurotic at the worst, and unbalanced at the very best.


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## Ocean

my thoughts:
Drive is a behavior that is 'driven' by a motivator - there can be many types of motivators hence different types of drives. A dog tries to fulfill a drive by doing behaviors until the motivator is no longer motivating; replaced by another motivator or need (need to poo for example); or dog is simply too tired. 

Energy is just the magnitude or duration of a dog's physical behavior. So it can be behavior driven by a motivator or it can simply be behavior due to hyperactivity or other causes. For example, a hyperactive child touching everything which is based on a real need for children to explore the world but can be too much for the adults around, or too much for the child to learn which contradicts the initial natural purpose of the behavior. 

Neurotic behavior can be behavior without purpose or a real need, or even counterproductive or harmful. For example, dog chasing its tail. 

The terms can be related such as a high drive dog having lots of energy to fulfill its drives; or a neurotic dog having lots of energy to be neurotic. Or unrelated such as a dog neurotically chasing its tail can also have a high drive to retrieve a ball, or not.

So a dog with lots of energy to engage in neurotic behaviors is the most undesirable. The level of energy a dog has is good or bad depending on the outcomes or situations or its owner. The level and types of drives a dog has is good or bad again depending on the situation and the owner. So a dog may be perceived as too 'high drive' or have too much energy by one person, and can be perceived as low drive or low energy by another person depending on the person's expectations and experiences.


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## gagsd

Which "drive" are we discussing? It seems most mainly consider prey/ball drive and forget to discuss anything else.

I think having a "goal" might differentiate drive v. neurosis. Chasing a tail has no real goal.... Going through a pile of brush to get a ball has an end-goal.

And low, moderate, high...... this is where getting out and training comes in handy. If you only have your dogs, or your clubs dogs to compare then I would venture your ability to accurately judge/label is skewed.

--Ocean, I think we were on the same track there.


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## Lilie

In the world according to Nancy;

Drive is what will assist you in training a dog. If the dog likes treats use treats. Toys use toys. Etc. High drive is a dog that will do ANYTHING for what modivates it. Will focus on the lure instead of anything else. 

Low and Medium drive is measured on the dog's ability to focus on the lure with distractions. 

Energy (to me) equals stamina. 

Neuotic is a dog that has little to no impulse control.


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## JakodaCD OA

see I knew someone could say it better than I thanks ocean, my thoughts were rather yours, but expressing it with words was much better accomplished by you

I don't think I've had my coffee yet to be functional


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## Diesel and Lace

Here are my opinions on each. This is based on my current GSD:

Drive - IMO My dog has high prey drive, why? He will not chase if it does not move, if it moves he must catch and "kill" it. When we play with his flirt pole, he will not stop to drink or do anything until I make him or he kills the toy at the end. If it starts to move again he is back at it. He tries to chase cats, birds, ground hogs, anything that moves. That is drive IMO.

Energy - He cant go for that long, and I do not expect him to. He is still under weight and needs to rest, I have to force the rest. He is low / medium energy (right now, once his weight improves it could be a different ball game) But he is ok just laying around sleeping in my office while I work, he tires quickly (maybe 3-4 rounds with the flirt pole and he is no longer running he is trotting after it, although he really wants it). 

Neurotic - I can break his focus with a number of different methods so he is not neurotic, his will to live and eat is higher than anything we have presented him with. Will he go back to the unwanted behavior if we do not redirect of course any dog would. I would think a neurotic dog would be so focused on what they want they will do ANYTHING to get to it. Death never crosses their mind and they cannot be redirected. I do think his dog aggression is border line neurotic. He will not break focus and there is no redirecting 98% of the time depending on how close the other dog is or what their return behavior is. The trainer has a different opinion than mine but his test for this were more drastic than I would personally do. Basically made him decide life or attack the other dog...


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## Magwart

What about "puzzle drive", for lack of a better word? I never see that talked about, but I've known several dogs who had it, and it's not prey _or _play. They are working toward a reward, are highly focused and are goal-oriented in that mode--and it seems to come _very _naturally to some dogs, regardless of their energy level.

For example, I had one who spent hours investigating how a super-sturdy Tuffy's Toy was constructed to find the _one _weakness in a seam, patiently work that seam open, and extract the squeaker. She was _not_ playing--she simply wanted what was inside and was determined to get it, however long it took. The same dog would watch people use latches on gates, doors, and even crates, think about what she observed, and then work patiently at the same task until she figured out how to do it too. It was always focused, calculated, and task-oriented when she did it--all business, with no playful body language.

That goal-oriented focus _has_ to be a kind of mental drive. It's not energy though (she was relaxed and calm doing these things). Nor is it neurotic (she would leave it if asked).


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## carmspack

Drive is the inner spark , an initiative , that is internally rewarded , which allows a dog to work reliably, independently in situations where there is stress, random need to exert its drive , and to work in a variety of locations without constant input and management or reward from the handler. 

This was the essence of what von Stephanitz appreciated when he studied itinerant , large flock , sheep herding "boundary keeping" dogs in use . 
Large flock could be anywhere from 500 to 700 sheep , which must be kept peaceful and contained. Often on the forum we have too much of the border collie type behaviour associated with the GSD. The sheep and the shepherd did not return to a home base , a farm , for the evening. These were the Wanderschaferei , the wandering , intinerant shepherds that would rest overnight in sheds or nomadic tent shelters.


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## lhczth

Drive is focused on a specific task. It has a purpose. 

Not sure how I would define high energy. 

Neurotic: A dog that does thing for no reason except just to do something. Tail chasing, spinning, barking, pacing, never settles unless exhausted. What they do has no focused purpose.


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## Cassidy's Mom

mycobraracr said:


> It's seems that in almost every thread people talk about there "high drive" dog. I have a really hard time believing that every GSD on this forum is high drive. That is just statistically not possible especially given the different lines these come from. That makes me think that we don't truly have an understanding of drive. Or what it means to have a "high drive" dog.





JakodaCD OA said:


> I also think drive/energy/neurotic can mean different things to people.





Ocean said:


> The level of energy a dog has is good or bad depending on the outcomes or situations or its owner. The level and types of drives a dog has is good or bad again depending on the situation and the owner. So a dog may be perceived as too 'high drive' or have too much energy by one person, and can be perceived as low drive or low energy by another person depending on the person's expectations and experiences.





gagsd said:


> If you only have your dogs, or your clubs dogs to compare then I would venture your ability to accurately judge/label is skewed.


Sorry to pick apart people's posts, but I thought these were all great comments, and each was very relevant to the others. Halo is my first working line dog, and while I can see that she is definitely _higher_ drive than my previous GSDs, I really couldn't say if she's actually HIGH drive or just medium, as I have limited comparative experience to judge her against. She has a really good off switch so she's definitely not bouncing off the walls high energy, and she's not neurotic. She is, however, very determined and very focused on what she wants and will keep at it until she gets it. She's easily motivated by food and toys, but also clearly enjoys working with me in general, just for the joy of the "work", which makes her highly biddable. (No _real_ work, we race in flyball and dabble in dock diving.) She has been an education for me, even after over 20 years of prior GSD ownership, but she's also been so much fun because she throws everything she has into everything she does. But is she high drive? I have no idea!


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## elisabeth_00117

I kinda think of drive as the "intensity" behind the force driving the dog (ie. going for a ball; finding a person/hunt; how they chase the sheep; etc.).

For energy, I look at the stamina of the dog while in drive. How long can they maintain that intensity on one task; etc.?

Zefra would be considered high drive, high energy.

I know some people who are not use to the breed, or working dogs in general consider her neurotic because she goes from 0 to 100 mph in a split second if asked or activated. But she is able to settle, is an excellent apartment dog, is able to just relax and enjoy life as a dog should with no outward bad behaviours (spinning, tail chasing, etc.).


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## Andaka

Neurotic = movement without thought.


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## mycobraracr

Thanks for replying everyone. I agree that people views of what is high drive or not is based off there experience level but that doesn't make it accurate. We should make a chart 1-10 of gsd's doing different activities like the pain chart at a doctors office haha. Then people could say I have a level 7 drive dog and..... 

All the talk about different drives brings up another question. What is a drive? That's another one that keeps getting thrown around. "My dog blinks all the time so it has high blink drive." What! blink drive? And so on.


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## Ocean

I think it is useful to think of a drive as a form of behavior that is motivated by a reward at the end of the behavior or by repeating the behavior. The behavior can also be rewarding by itself.
Here is where the kids need to change channels.
Sex drive - it's a behavior done because it feels good. Nature made it feel good because it is necessary to continue the species. Scientists have found all sorts of chemicals involved in the brain during the act.

My SchH dog loves to track. Even when he was young it wasn't about the food on the track or the reward. The behavior itself was rewarding for him to do. It must have felt good. It's logical that Nature made the tracking behavior feel good because it increases the survival chances of a canine. A bit like sex. So the training was just channeling the drive to the specifics of a desired pattern.

Car chasing is a behavior I've had to deal with. Obviously, chase is part of the hunt sequence - find, chase, kill, eat or bring back to den. The dog is not motivated by the whole hunt sequence, even it knows it can't kill and eat a car, but the chase part by itself feels good. So what would be the proper terminology to call a strong drive to chase cars?

Herding is really interesting because it's a fairly complex behavioral tool kit that contains many drives, some conflicting. Hence, why the GSD (and other herding breeds) are so intelligent and trainable (and energetic or drivey).


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## jmdjack

I tend to think of drive as: desire directed toward an objective and the intensity at which the desire is expressed. 

As for neurotic in this context, I tend to think of it as the inability to contain and/or direct all that the dog has flowing through it. 

I think people's perception of their dog being "high drive" is relative to the experience they have with other dogs. One person's "high drive" dog might be another person's couch potato. I used to think my female was pretty high drive . . . until I got my male. Not saying the female does not have good drive; the male just brings a whole 'nuther level of intensity.

Putting drive on a scale based upon activities could be difficult. In some instances, activities may be more a function of the inability of a dog to control and direct its drive than the "amount" of drive itself.


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## FG167

I think of drive as something useful I can tap into to train/trial/play with my dog. My dog is EXTREMELY high drive. Hard-to-handle high drive.

I think of energy as something separate. I look at it as more busy-ness. Something that has to be expended to settle down. My Kelpie has high energy, he is constantly busy playing with toys and entertaining himself. My GSD is medium energy. He's content to hang out, nap, watch a movie etc



Andaka said:


> Neurotic = movement without thought.


I agree with this and none of my dogs are neurotic. I have two close friends with extremely neurotic dogs though and I personally, cannot stand it.


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## onyx'girl

For those that have HIGH drive dogs, are they crated most of the time, or left loose in the home?


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## cliffson1

Most behavior emanates from one of these drives
1) sex drive
2) food drive
3) prey drive
4) fight/defense drive
5) hunt drive

I have found that the catalyst for much of a dogs behaviors is rooted in one of those. Others may see it different, but when explaining why a dog " naturally" does something, these drives are often behind it.jmo


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## gsdsar

cliffson1 said:


> Most behavior emanates from one of these drives
> 1) sex drive
> 2) food drive
> 3) prey drive
> 4) fight/defense drive
> 5) hunt drive
> 
> I have found that the catalyst for much of a dogs behaviors is rooted in one of those. Others may see it different, but when explaining why a dog " naturally" does something, these drives are often behind it.jmo


You beat me to it Cliff!! Except I would narrow it further. I would put prey/hunt/food together. Because they all are the driving force for survival. A dog hunts a meal, stalks it , chases it, then eats it. The end game is nourishment and survival. We separate them out because of the way we have bred dogs who show a propensity for certain portions of that instinct. 

I would also add Pack drive. The desire to work within a unit to fulfill all of the other needs. 

All dogs have drive. If they have no drive, they die. What is important to trainers is which drive is strongest, so we can harness it to get the desired behaviors we want. 

We focus a lot on Prey drive on this forum, but its only one of few that can be used to train. 

Energy, is just that. You can have a low energy dog with high drives, the dog just won't express that drive for long periods. You can also have the opposite. Finding the balance in a dog is the goal. A dog with a workable drive that can sustain the drive for the time frame you need. 

Neurotic dogs express energy without and end goal that satiates the drive. 


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## Liesje

I sort of struggle with how prey, hunt, and food drive go together (or not). I have a dog, not a GSD but a large mix, that I describe as a pretty instinctive kind of dog. He's very independent and acts based on his own instincts and agenda. My husband and I say if we dumped all our dogs in the middle of nowhere, he would be the one that could survive as a stray or street dog. He seems to have very high prey drive (he is bigger than my intact male GSD yet will dig and slide through a 4" hole in seconds to get a rabbit....and then will check that spot for a rabbit several times a day for the next month). He will do anything to get at *actual* prey (rabbits, squirrels, cats). He's caught and killed more prey than all my other dogs combined. However he has no "prey" drive for toys. He is also very food motivated and though he's a very submissive dog that is very social with other dogs and people, he will be food aggressive, guard food, and go to great lengths to get at food (or get at a container he *thinks* might have food). However, besides fairly basic obedience with minimal distraction, he won't *work* for food like how people train. I never really know where he fits in these evaluations because he's not like prey driven dogs that will lure course for a plastic bag or chase tennis balls all day and he's not like food motivated dogs that will do backflips through a crowd of screaming people for a treat but he is far more obsessed with actual prey and getting at actual food than my higher drive GSDs.


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## Merciel

I think of "neurotic" as just, well, neurotic.

Pongu is neurotic. He has clinical OCD, which manifests mostly in fur-chewing and self-mutilation (when I stop giving him Prozac, anyway). He is "neurotic" in ways that are very similar to how human beings are neurotic -- outside the house, he's super fearful and spooky; inside, he's anxious and insecure and whiny and can't stand me paying attention to anything else ever. If he sees me paying attention to some other pet (or my husband), Pongu will immediately run off and grab his most valuable toy so he can parade it around in front of me AND zoom around making "woowoowoo" noises with it AND physically jump between me and whatever attention-rival he's trying to block. His body language is anxious and twitchy the whole time he does this. I should really tape it sometime, it's truly bizarre and he does it multiple times every day.

He's not a particularly drive-y dog, I don't think, although I'm not used to thinking of dogs in those terms so I don't actually know. He's medium energy overall.

But man, you want to talk about neurosis, that dog scores off the charts.


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## ponyfarm

Gosh, Liesje, did Coke live on the streets for a while? I had a stray that had lived on the streets and was she very saavy. She knew to look before crossing a street. She killed stuff and would eat it right away. 

She was not into training. She had lived too long making her own decisions and being her own dog. Was an interesting dog to have around.

She had prey/hunt/food drive very strongly. Never wasted any energy. Not really any drive toward learning "human" stuff.


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## cliffson1

There will always be varying opinions on food/prey/hunt and fight/defense....some separate them individually and other combine them as one. As long as people understand that these drives motivate the dog more than some altruistic reasons based on Human reasoning. I also agree with pack drive as important. These drives are necessary for survival and the continued procreation of the breed. Dogs lacking sufficient elements of these drives would not pass that on in the wild....whereas many novice breeders will breed dogs with lacking drives in these areas.....but than again that's advanced breeding principles and really doesn't fit into these generic forums.


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## onyx'girl

But does containment or lack of bring the drives to higher levels than would normally be in the dog...as in crating/kenneling so the dog is over energized or more(or less) pack driven because of the deprivation of attention? I know you see these drives early on within littermates, but after leaving the breeder there may be changes with the way the dog is managed.

I see dogs that are kenneled be more of the crate spinner, possibly dog reactive/aggressive if they are next to other dogs in a kennel(barrier frustration), or over the top energy because of containment. 
Whereas dogs that have more freedom to come and go seem to be more balanced with their drives,reactivity and energy. 
I think sometimes knowing how a dog is managed when not in 'training' mode should play into assessing the drive state.


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## llombardo

onyx'girl said:


> But does containment or lack of bring the drives to higher levels than would normally be in the dog...as in crating/kenneling so the dog is over energized or more pack driven because of the deprivation of attention?
> 
> I see dogs that are kenneled be more of the crate spinner, possibly dog aggressive if they are next to other dogs in a kennel(barrier frustration), or over the top energy because of containment.
> Whereas dogs that have more freedom to come and go seem to be more balanced with their drives,reactivity and energy.
> I think sometimes knowing how a dog is managed when not in 'training' mode should play into assessing the drive state.


I agree with this and I can see it in my male that I got a couple weeks ago. He still doesn't care to be in the crate. He has problems settling down and I feel that if he was out of the crate this would be easier. Its like he has to check everything out once he gets out and then that cycle repeats itself everytime he gets his freedom. If I didn't think that the cats would be a major problem he would be sleeping with me at night. In fact I think I'm going to have to try it. My female calmed down a lot once she had more freedom to.


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## gsdsar

onyx'girl said:


> But does containment or lack of bring the drives to higher levels than would normally be in the dog...as in crating/kenneling so the dog is over energized or more(or less) pack driven because of the deprivation of attention? I know you see these drives early on within littermates, but after leaving the breeder there may be changes with the way the dog is managed.
> 
> I see dogs that are kenneled be more of the crate spinner, possibly dog reactive/aggressive if they are next to other dogs in a kennel(barrier frustration), or over the top energy because of containment.
> Whereas dogs that have more freedom to come and go seem to be more balanced with their drives,reactivity and energy.
> I think sometimes knowing how a dog is managed when not in 'training' mode should play into assessing the drive state.


I think this is a whole new topic. And a good one. As someone who has been told many times to only bring my pup out when working, I would love to have a good discussion on it. 


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## mycobraracr

gsdsar said:


> I think this is a whole new topic. And a good one. As someone who has been told many times to only bring my pup out when working, I would love to have a good discussion on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Me too! I'm currently doing something different with recon than I have in the past. I think it's working better.


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## elisabeth_00117

onyx'girl said:


> For those that have HIGH drive dogs, are they crated most of the time, or left loose in the home?


My dog is HIGH drive, HIGH energy but is able to cap and turn it off/on when it's appropriate. In the past she was most definitely UNABLE to cap herself. Now that she is 2 years old over the last 6 or so months she has turned into a very different dog.

Very much still high drive, high energy but is able to settle in the house, skip a walk or play session one or two days if needed, etc. and still be okay to lounge around and play with her stuffie or Stark in the house quietly. 

She is loose in the home 99.9% of the time with my two cats and one other dog.


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## llombardo

mycobraracr said:


> Me too! I'm currently doing something different with recon than I have in the past. I think it's working better.


What are you doing that is working better? I think I'm just going to have to let mine out of the crate at night to start, I think he will be a completely different dog once I do this.


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## onyx'girl

Well, I know for certain Karlo would be a different dog if he was crated or kenneled for several hours a day. 
He isn't the highest driven dog in any phase, but he is balanced, higher threshold and a thinker. He turns on well and does have an off switch. But I have to work to bring up his enthusiasm and engagement during obedience.
He's been loose in the house since 7 months of age and is allowed to play with my other two dogs...he also has access to toys. 
If I wanted a high point podium dog, I don't think the way I manage him is going to get me to that goal. BUT, I have to live with him, and he is balanced and happy, which is way more important.


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## llombardo

onyx'girl said:


> Well, I know for certain Karlo would be a different dog if he was crated or kenneled for several hours a day.
> He isn't the highest driven dog in any phase, but he is balanced, higher threshold and a thinker. He turns on well and does have an off switch. But I have to work to bring up his enthusiasm and engagement during obedience.
> He's been loose in the house since 7 months of age and is allowed to play with my other two dogs...he also has access to toys.
> If I wanted a high point podium dog, I don't think the way I manage him is going to get me to that goal. BUT, I have to live with him, and he is balanced and happy, which is way more important.


This is my female, but she does have drive. She was even out of her crate at 7 months too. Toys everywhere and never a problem after she was out of that crate.


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## pets4life

mycobraracr said:


> It's seems that in almost every thread people talk about there "high drive" dog. I have a really hard time believing that every GSD on this forum is high drive. That is just statistically not possible especially given the different lines these come from. That makes me think that we don't truly have an understanding of drive. Or what it means to have a "high drive" dog. I truly think people confuse energy (which our breed should have lots of), drive, and a dog that is just neurotic. Maybe have a screw that's not tightened all the way. So I was hoping we could discuss some of this.
> 
> 1) How can you tell the difference between drive, energy and neurotic?
> 2) What is "drive"?
> I lost my train of thought so hopefully this will get us started.


I totally agree with the first part. A lot just have high energy dogs, many dogs are high energy, but not high drive. The third kind if very high energy is really hard to deal and live with. Most dogs people call neurotic are just not taken care of properly and trained proper. BUT real ones do exist. They are rare but they are there. Those ones dont seem to have an off switch and no matter what you cannot trust them in your house because they will always tear something up if your not watching them.


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## x11

so if a neurotic dog is given something to do, does it become a high drive dog?


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## x11

Diesel and Lace said:


> ...He will not chase if it does not move...


go back and think about this statement


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## volcano

My 5 month old seems to have balanced drive. She was super food drive and go nuts, now she can do a down stay in front of a chicken quarter while I walk 10 feet away. At her first shutz she went into the building/stable and went right for the rag when the trainer played with her and she impressed him.


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## cliffson1

Good post Onyx, crating and kenneling can and will contribute to certain behaviors and reactions in some dogs. Not all but some....often depends on nerves, drives, and length of time kept in these type places. They also can create neuroses in dogs that if brought up in different environment would not be present.


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## MadLab

I'm thinking Drive is a desire to get something. A working drive is a desire to work etc. It's hard to explain as a dog with good drive needs good training to focus the dog into working as the handler wishes.
When you look at Prey drive there are also many facets to catching prey. Prey drive is a drive to , stalk, chase, catch, kill, dissect and eat prey. 

A neurotic dog is a dog with no control. It wants what it wants and it is not too interested to learn the steps you may intend it to take before getting what it wants. It's drive is out the window. Eyes will always be dilated, dog will be restless and over excitable.


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## gsdraven

x11 said:


> so if a neurotic dog is given something to do, does it become a high drive dog?


Or is it a high drive dog with nothing to do becomes neurotic?

Holly is higher drive. She could also be called neurotic. She had a very stressful and unstable puppyhood. She LOVES to work and will do so for very little but will also try to move the moon for food or a toy. 

She paces when not engaged and is always chewing on a ball or kong stick. She has certain routines that she needs to do in the morning. She creates games for herself when left to her own devices. In the yard, she creates patterns and obstacles and changes them up. She'll invent games to get you engaged with her. She wants to be doing something most of the time. Even if she is relaxed with something in the house, she needs to get up and walk through the house every so often.


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## lhczth

Is someone going to start a discussion about creating drive through deprivation?


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## llombardo

gsdraven said:


> Or is it a high drive dog with nothing to do becomes neurotic?


I would think that a dog that is contained either by tie out in the yard or in the crate all the time would become neurotic no matter what the drive is.


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## FG167

onyx'girl said:


> For those that have HIGH drive dogs, are they crated most of the time, or left loose in the home?


Both. 1/3 of the time, Kastle is loose in the house. 1/3 he is crated next to other dogs. 1/3 he goes to work with me. His drive is extreme. Pan is medium drive, high energy, goes to work with us 90% of the time, and is kenneled at home unless outside. He used to be loose more but was not able to settle quietly...and the whole dog aggression thing.


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## lhczth

> Originally Posted by *onyx'girl*
> _For those that have HIGH drive dogs, are they crated most of the time, or left loose in the home?_


About 50/50 since I have to do the rotating thing with the girls. I like a dog that can run all day with me while I mow and then are ready to train when asked. High drive, high energy. I also like dogs that can settle in the house or in their crates (no neurotic dogs). I have found that my dogs that spend more time with me work better for me. The bond is better, IMO. A GSD shouldn't have to be deprived of attention to work. 

Deja is very high energy, high drive yet one of the quietest dogs I have ever owned when crated. Except some vocalizing when I take her sister out to work, you would never know she is in the truck. She can hear and see bitework going on yet is still quite. 

Personally I HATE dogs that bark non stop during training. It wastes energy, saps drive, and serves no purpose. My definition of neurotic.


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## Pooky44

gsdraven said:


> Or is it a high drive dog with nothing to do becomes neurotic?
> 
> Holly is higher drive. She could also be called neurotic. She had a very stressful and unstable puppyhood. She LOVES to work and will do so for very little but will also try to move the moon for food or a toy.
> 
> She paces when not engaged and is always chewing on a ball or kong stick. She has certain routines that she needs to do in the morning. She creates games for herself when left to her own devices. In the yard, she creates patterns and obstacles and changes them up. She'll invent games to get you engaged with her. She wants to be doing something most of the time. Even if she is relaxed with something in the house, she needs to get up and walk through the house every so often.


This sounds like OCD. Where is the line between drive and neurotic?
Don't answer that, just thinking out loud. :crazy:


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## KristiM

Odin has what would consider to be _plenty_ of drive. He performs everything I ask of him with a great deal of enthusiasm and speed, he never quits and will work for anything. In performance sports he is just as fast as the fast mals and border collies (some of the _fastest _ones still beat him, but hey a 77 pound dog does have some limitations.) But he is nothing over the top, he respects his body, he respects my body and doesn't ever do anything overly stupid. I used to think the more drive the better!!! But now I see that the truly high drive dogs really don't seem to perform any better, but they don't respect their body or your body and they tend to do crazy stuff that puts them at risk. A HIGH drive dog won't really care about anything other than his end goal (whatever they are driving for.) It also seems to me like these HIGH drive dogs would obviously have a greater tendency towards neurotic behavior if they are not channeled or managed properly.

I do definitely see energy level as being a different than drive but can also see that HIGH energy dogs again, if not channeled and managed properly would also have a high tendency towards neurotic behaviors.


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## jmdjack

I wonder how much temperament and nerve factor into opinions of whether a dog is "high drive" as some seem to correlate hard to handle as being part of high drive. Will a dog that is able to harness and control the drive flowing through it appear as high drive as a dog who is less able to harness and control the drive flowing through it? These thoughts come to mind based upon the two dogs laying at my feet. The young male has the most drive of any dog I have had. Yet, he is very easy to handle because of his temperament, nerve, and biddability. He simply is able to control his stuff. In contrast, my female is not as high in drive (not low drive by any means), but she is harder to handle when out and about because she is less able (and less willing, lol) to control and harness the drive she has. 

About the crate: I hesitate to declare my male "high drive" for lack of my own experience and perspective. However, I suspect many of the experienced folks would consider him high drive if they had experience with him. He has not seen a crate since he was about 6 months old. He lives free in the house with us (wife, young kids, and other dog), but is rarely alone as my wife is at home during the day. He chills in the house but when it's drive time, it's there in abundance and has been since day one. Never had to build drive - simply ask for it and brace yourself for the ride.


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## jessac

I sometimes wonder what drive (high, medium, etc. prey, pack, etc) my puppy has. He seems to have good prey drive - loves chase with other dogs, fetch and other running games, he is motivated by food treats, etc. He'll work for a game of tug or a squirt of the hose (another game for us). But I really don't know much as he is my first dog. But he also likes to work for the sake of working. We do agility with him and he just loves it. I don't know that he cares much about the treat at the end of the sequence, he just loves doing the obstacles. I don't know if that's drive. I guess it doesn't matter much to me if he's high drive or medium drive or what, he has enough drive that I can form the behaviors I want and he's willing to work/train with me, so that's all that really matters, really. 

He seems to be medium-high energy, but he's still a puppy, so if he will grow to be high energy or settle into a more medium energy dog, I don't know. At our training place, there aren't other GSDs - just labs, BCs, etc. (of which he is the most energetic) so how he stacks up to other GSDs his age I don't know.


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## gsdraven

Pooky44 said:


> This sounds like OCD. Where is the line between drive and neurotic?
> Don't answer that, just thinking out loud. :crazy:


To me, OCD and neurotic are pretty much the same. In Holly, she has drive and when focused properly it's good drive. When not, she does things that can be considered OCD/neurotic in order to meet her needs. 

By all accounts, she is not a stable dog. Her history is rough and she's come a long way but she'll never be a stable dog which is a shame because she could do so many things with her drive but her other issues get in the way. 

To me, even though you said not to answer, there have been good explanations as to the difference between drive and neurotic by others. I would say (or hope) most high drive dogs are not neurotic and most neurotic dogs are not necessarily high drive.


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## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> About 50/50 since I have to do the rotating thing with the girls. I like a dog that can run all day with me while I mow and then are ready to train when asked. High drive, high energy. I also like dogs that can settle in the house or in their crates (no neurotic dogs). * I have found that my dogs that spend more time with me work better for me. The bond is better, IMO. A GSD shouldn't have to be deprived of attention to work.*
> 
> Deja is very high energy, high drive yet one of the quietest dogs I have ever owned when crated. Except some vocalizing when I take her sister out to work, you would never know she is in the truck. She can hear and see bitework going on yet is still quite.
> 
> *Personally I HATE dogs that bark non stop during training. It wastes energy, saps drive, and serves no purpose. My definition of neurotic.*


Yes to the first bolded....I think the dog being with the handler often and not just taken out for training is going to be more bonded and happy to please. 

I agree about the unnecesary barking, and where I train, barking in the crate/vehicle is discouraged. 

I don't really like to hear dogs explode everytime I walk past a vehicle either...but I know that is a given at training. 
Karlo is quiet in his crate in the vehicle, unless someone sticks their hand near his crate, he's neutral.


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## GSDElsa

UGH, totally OT but I agree with the barking in the crate thing. One of my biggest pet peeves ever. It is SUCH a neurotic behavior and so obnoxious.

I agree that drive is relative for most people. They know what "drive" is in their own context and environment. 

I"ve had the conversation on here before. To me, for a dog to be high drive, the dog must work with that drive no matter what the circumstances. I disagree with most people who say that their dog has extreme prey drive because it will chase and kill a chipmunk, but the dog wants nothing to do with a flirt pole or playing ball. Yes, the prey drive is high in one circumstance, but the overall picture of prey drive isn't really complete. I never feel like I explain how I feel about that well!

I don't have a problem with people breaking down the drives, either. Medo is "high drive" across the board. High energy. And (thank gawd) not neurotic. As long as he gets a good mental and physical workout he is a pretty chill dog to live with. And even when he doesn't get it, it's more just being annoying (pestering with toys, bugging his sister, etc) than neurotic.

Elsa is harder to define. She's pretty medium drive in hunt and prey drives. High food drive IMO. However, where I think that things get tricky is the rest of the dogs personality. Elsa has a good amount of drives for some things, but gets stressed easily and can shut down in certain circumstances. One thing she has unbelievable drive in is "obstacle drive" for a lack of a better way to describe it. Absolutely thrives in agility type work and overcomes her easy(ish) to stress personality to kick some butt. So I would call her medium drive (lower end of medium) in most things because she cannot overcome her weak points, but high in whatever category you would classify "obstacle drive" (real world and the agility ring).


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## Liesje

GSDElsa said:


> To me, for a dog to be high drive, the dog must work with that drive no matter what the circumstances. I disagree with most people who say that their dog has extreme prey drive because it will chase and kill a chipmunk, but the dog wants nothing to do with a flirt pole or playing ball. Yes, the prey drive is high in one circumstance, but the overall picture of prey drive isn't really complete.


But for me it's not enough to say a dog will chase and kill prey or chase balls. To what extent will the dog do those things? I have a dog that will tear through thousands of dollars of fencing to get at a spot where he thought there was a rabbit four days ago. The threshold may be higher if the dog isn't stimulated by something that's not actual prey but the dog will go through a tremendous amount of work and injuries or discomfort to himself to be able to chase real prey. My ball drivey dog would not chase a ball or a rabbit off a cliff but my not-ball-drivey dog would in the blink of an eye. And then there's the aspect of the dog not just chasing objects or real prey but the aggression that comes with it. Some dogs will chase for the sake of chasing but some dogs relish that moment where they overpower and kill (dogs that show power and fight and literally drag a helper down on an escape bite vs. dogs that are fast and will chase and catch any helper).


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