# Is there a reactivity support group?



## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

I need one I am getting my dog a personal trainer (recommended by local shelter) and I know I need to desensitize starting from a distance and all the specifics about the process (read a ton, watched tons of youtube videos especially Michael Ellis, and discussed with trainer), but the whole thing to a first time dog owner is so stressful. My pup is GREAT when at home with me or when off leash at parks when everyone just ignores her, but when going out on our walks (where strangers unintentionally stare at her or people move in a startling way) she can be so unpredictable and even though I am not a person who generally takes others' comments personally, the looks and comments other people give my dog really make me feel sad. Also this is totally my fault, I can't believe I listened to vet and did not take her on walks until she had her second shots and thus missed out on socialization (I took her to puppy classes and carried her around but obviously this is not enough for GSD breed). I also used punishment techniques when she was a pup for easy fixes + I did not get her from a real reputable breeder and now it is coming back at me. I am really grateful that my dog is still willing to trust me and listen to my commands as long as the stimulus is not staring at her and looking to interact with her (which strangers do all the time ), but I feel hopeless that my damage can not be undone

Also my building management is threatening me with eviction because my dog is too noisy when I leave her alone at day time. We have worked on separation anxiety for 2 months and there is real progress, but I need to somehow find a quick fix to her barking before management kicks us out. Lots of people suggest me rehoming the pup, but I can't find anyone/any group who can take in such a possible liability (she tried to bite vet when handled except she was muzzled) + she refuses to take commands from anyone except me (she will bark at them) and I suspect her anxiety is gonna get worse with rehoming and I am worried she is gonna bite her new owners (she has never bitten me though, even while I try to hold her down for vet inspection before giving up to her struggles and using a muzzle instead). Also I can't just leave her at a random shelter as all of this is my fault and I can't leave her with a fate of possible euthanasia because of me.

Sorry for the rant, I am just really stressed and guilty. Of course I only use positive reinforcement techniques now and I try my best to be calm and confident for her. I am sure we will be fine with the help of trainer and I will be bribing my neighbours with cash to ask them to overlook her barking for one more month while we try to work on it, but this is intensely overwhelming and even though I hate to admit it, but I think I need help and a support group I got the pup for my own satisfaction without really thinking over the consequences, now I need serious support to raise her to be a fine happy adult.

Thanks for reading.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

First things first I have no idea what you did as "punishment?? But "PO" is not going to work and most likely any recommend you got from a "Shelter is most likely pretty useless?? I saw the ASPCA's dogs at a "Boxers and Buddies rescue event and I was frankly horrified at there dogs behaviours! 

But first things first if your dog's "Barking" is going to get you kicked out, then you need to address it first!! Rather than "bribing your neighbor get a "real" Bark Collar. :

Leerburg | Dogtra YS600 No Bark Collar

If you list your location ... there maybe members here that can give a recommendation for a trainer?? And I don't know where you are but Jeff maybe headed your way??
DATES & TICKETS ? RV DOG TRAINER

And you need to get out of "panic mode" and relax ... I know it's hard but you can't help your dog if your freaked out! And forget the "PO" only thing your way way past that but that does not mean "Yank and Crank" either! This is ... well one of many rather long detail post lots of info but it has things I belive that you can do.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

So hands of the "Panic Button" have a look there and ask questions. Welcome aboard.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

My dog showed aggressive behaviours at 11 weeks and was trying to bite the vet at 3 months old and now even though with training, she does not get reactive most of the time, but when she does get reactive, it is super scary and I am sure she has no problems biting someone. I am currently muzzle training her and of course rewarding for calm behaviours, but the fact that she is more than I can handle with my experience and financial ability yet I can't find a responsible experienced home for her is really stressful. I will try my best though, just feeling very panicked.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> But first things first if your dog's "Barking" is going to get you kicked out, then you need to address it first!! Rather than "bribing your neighbor get a "real" Bark Collar. :
> 
> Leerburg | Dogtra YS600 No Bark Collar


I used bark collar before when neighbours first complained, but I think that might be one reason for her aggression at such a young age so I have stopped using it for now. If after a week or two my dog still has barking issues at home with extensive training (I decide to skip my classes for 2 weeks to train her to get used to separation), I will sure resort to bark collar again, but before that I want to try everything else first. Her aggression at such young age is very scary and I don't want to take any risks to further the problems unless absolutely necessary.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I just want to point out that a lot of these problems can actually be genetic. It sounds like she is fearful. That can be from poor breeding. I think people forget sometimes that sometimes a dog just is that way, and it's not necessarily anything you did wrong. My suggestion would be to find a trainer that will work with you one on one. In my opinion, a class may not be what's best for this particular dog. Find a balanced trainer, one that understands aggressive/working breeds. Don't limit yourself with someone who claims to be positive only. Positive reinforcement is wonderful, but it's not balanced training. And understand that your dog may always take management. But once you learn how to manage inappropriate behaviors, it does get easier. Good luck.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> I just want to point out that a lot of these problems can actually be genetic. It sounds like she is fearful. That can be from poor breeding. I think people forget sometimes that sometimes a dog just is that way, and it's not necessarily anything you did wrong. My suggestion would be to find a trainer that will work with you one on one. In my opinion, a class may not be what's best for this particular dog. Find a balanced trainer, one that understands aggressive/working breeds. Don't limit yourself with someone who claims to be positive only. Positive reinforcement is wonderful, but it's not balanced training. And understand that your dog may always take management. But once you learn how to manage inappropriate behaviors, it does get easier. Good luck.


Hey thanks for comforting, though I am pretty sure I am at least partially responsible (if not fully responsible) for her problems after reading all the stuff about punishment on dogs and problems with traditional dominance theory. But anyway, I can still be ok with myself as long as I try my best now. And yes I am in contact with a private trainer to arrange private sessions, but it is super expensive and I would need to find myself a part time job in order to support on-going sessions. So now I am in the process of applying for jobs...I have just dropped one class today so I will have more free time available and hopefully I can work something out.

Anyway, on the good side, my pup is super affectionate and sweet when she is at home with me and when we are outside taking off leash walks alone (very late at night and cold and away from major areas so nobody is around). She does not have all the biting/jumping/resource guarding issues that other pups seem to have, and she loves training sessions. She has absolutely perfect recall (it is the only command that has never ever failed so far and I was even able to call her back when she snapped out of her harness to go after someone...that incident was why I decided to add in muzzle). She is also completely housetrained (if I am home). So I am pretty sure once I get her problem managed, she will be an amazing companion.

All in all thanks for help, I am much calmer today after having a long sleep and making all the plans needed to address her problems (yesterday's noise complaint and threat of eviction notice really got me panicked lol). I talked to building management and from the sound of it, I am allowed some time to fix this issue. I also applied to a bunch of positions so hopefully I can hear back soon and be able to support her training sessions!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> I used bark collar before when neighbours first complained, but I think that might be one reason for her aggression at such a young age so I have stopped using it for now. If after a week or two my dog still has barking issues at home with extensive training (I decide to skip my classes for 2 weeks to train her to get used to separation), I will sure resort to bark collar again, but before that I want to try everything else first. Her aggression at such young age is very scary and I don't want to take any risks to further the problems unless absolutely necessary.


The fact of the matter is that becasue you did try a "Bark Collar" most likely a "Petco Special??" And it did not work you "assume" your dog is like "this" because you used a "Bark Collar??? 

That makes sense, but I doubt it is correct?? And most likely you also "assume" that becasue he is such a "tool" at the vet ... the "Bark Collar must be why??? That makes sense but most likely it's wrong?? There is no shortage of "Vet's" that will just flat not work with "GSD's" because your dog's behaviour is "typical!" My vet and my dog is "not" like that but owners like "us" "put in a lot of effort" to get our dogs to the a "Vet" visit is no big deal and we also have great vet's! They judge dogs is "individuals and not "Breeds"no big deal.

So your "assumption there" makes sense ... I suppose but it's most likely wrong! Tons of "GSD's" are "particular "PIA's" at the vet and lots of vet's flat won't deal with them! 


So the "Bark Collar" and your "assumption" is most likely off base .... I don't know ... but what I do know, is that if you have a dog with an "issue" that is.:

A)Endangering a dog's life or ..
B)Will get "the owner kicked" out of where they live?? 

Then "that" issue needs to be addressed first, now, hard and fast!" If that owner does not do that ... then they may not have a dog to worry about training! Pretty much that simple. Moving on ... "what I do know" is that, a competent effective "Trainer" that could actually help you with this "Problem ... Barking" would tell you that step one is ... use a "Bark Collar!" You can't correct a dog's behaviour ... if you are not there??? That is a" fact" that is "not" subject to "debate."

Yet another "fact" is that the longer a dog "continues" to "practice" a bad behaviour, the better he becomes at it and the harder it is to solve! It is "not a kindness" to allow a dog to continue to struggle with a issue! And "effective" "Trainers" don't do allow that. 

The "barking Crap" has to be stopped first or it sounds like you won't have a "place to live or a dog to "Train??" So you know, you can go with "whatever" you have already being doing for another two weeks ... and see how it works, "this time" or do something different. 

But, hey I'm not unreasonable ask your "Shelter Trainer" what they recommend?? And I'll add in "Essential oils and Soft Gentle music" pretty sure "behaviourist" type luv that crap ... I have no idea if that crap works?? As for your "other issues" ... already listed ... happy to break it down further if required but it sounds like .. if you don't address the "Barking Issue " first ... you won't have to worry about it. 

Oh and the "BYB" thing?? Sure it may or may not be a problem??? Don't know don't care mayself "work with the dog in front of you" is how I roll.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> Hey thanks for comforting, though I am pretty sure I am at least partially responsible (if not fully responsible) for her problems after reading all the stuff about punishment on dogs and problems with traditional dominance theory. But anyway, I can still be ok with myself as long as I try my best now. And yes I am in contact with a private trainer to arrange private sessions, but it is super expensive and I would need to find myself a part time job in order to support on-going sessions. So now I am in the process of applying for jobs...I have just dropped one class today so I will have more free time available and hopefully I can work something out.
> 
> Anyway, on the good side, my pup is super affectionate and sweet when she is at home with me and when we are outside taking off leash walks alone (very late at night and cold and away from major areas so nobody is around). She does not have all the biting/jumping/resource guarding issues that other pups seem to have, and she loves training sessions. She has absolutely perfect recall (it is the only command that has never ever failed so far and I was even able to call her back when she snapped out of her harness to go after someone...that incident was why I decided to add in muzzle). She is also completely housetrained (if I am home). So I am pretty sure once I get her problem managed, she will be an amazing companion.
> 
> All in all thanks for help, I am much calmer today after having a long sleep and making all the plans needed to address her problems (yesterday's noise complaint and threat of eviction notice really got me panicked lol). I talked to building management and from the sound of it, I am allowed some time to fix this issue. I also applied to a bunch of positions so hopefully I can hear back soon and be able to support her training sessions!


Just saw this and want to add the "harness" ... that is actually a part of your issue. But the recall is outstanding! And the walks without distractions ... yet another plus! And the "muzzle" good call on your part and no big deal!

You do have good institics! You have made some good calls, the "harness" is a part of your problem on walks. You can't correct a dog with a "harness." In my link in the "New Dog a Challenge thread see the first video clip. A Slip lead Leash a Flat Collar and Regular leash or a "Prong Collar" or much better options! 

The "barking is your "stumbling block!" You "have to get that stopped" or seriously dialed down first!! The "Bark Collar need not be for life ... "Calmness can be Trained" but you can't put the horse before the Cart. You have to address that first! But the dog is not as "out of control as you made it seem at first.


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## giebel (Jul 28, 2016)

*Stop blaming yourself!!!*

Hi Snow Shepherd

Please stop blaming yourself first of all. You are clearly committed to the pup and want to do everything for them. Like previously posters have said some of your dogs behaviors can be genetic. Also, regardless of breeders I have never met a perfect dog or person for that matter. My dog was reactive as a pup and it was something I constantly had to work on with him. Despite my dogs reactivity we had a beautiful 11 years together. I was thinking about starting a thread post titled" First dogs lessons learned". My beloved 11 year old GSD passed 5 months ago and he was the most loyal companion I could have ever asked for. Was he perfect...absolutely not and neither was I, but I also feel that contributed to our bond, and understanding of one another. I believe dogs understand perseverance and never giving up. They always strive to do better and please you( we as humans just have to figure out and communicate with them how to get there!) I would recommend joining a local schutzhund club even if that's not want you want for your dog. Schutzhund clubs, german shepherd rescues and local meetup.com groups( german shepherd ). These are all GSD fanatic groups that can provide you with advice and resources and not make you feel crazy and alone in this journey. When your dog has behavior issues it's easy to blame yourself and look at the sweet lab at the cafe and ask yourself what have I done wrong? I am getting close to ready getting a new dog in the summer. I have started asking myself " If I could go back in time what would I have done differently with my dog?( who passed) and what will I do differently when i get a new pup this time? This is not an easy answer. Fortunately your dog is just a pup and you have the opportunity to reshape and change the current behaviors you are worried about. I wish you all the best. Please continue to share on this forum.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> A)Endangering a dog's life or ..
> B)Will get "the owner kicked" out of where they live??
> 
> Yet another "fact" is that the longer a dog "continues" to "practice" a bad behaviour, the better he becomes at it and the harder it is to solve! It is "not a kindness" to allow a dog to continue to struggle with a issue! And "effective" "Trainers" don't do allow that.
> ...


A. She is friendly towards dogs, just not towards people who stare/interact with her.
B. For the next two weeks, we will be doing heavy separation anxiety training which will involve me giving her real meaty bone before leaving for only like 15min and then slowly increasing the time etc.. Previously, I can only work on this training during weekends and it is definitely working. In 2 months (or 16 days of weekend time), we started from her crying the minute I closed the crate to her being able to be completely ok in crate alone for at least 15min and her liking crate so much that she normally chooses to sleep in crate herself so I think this method is working. I also will be only feeding her before I leave and hopefully in 2 weeks we can increase 15min to close to 4 hours so that I can go back to school. I read lots of stuff after my dog tried to bite vet, and I am pretty sure electric shock is stressful to dogs, and stress causes release of stress hormones which can stay in dog's system from 2days up to 7 days which will make the dog more edgy and reactive than usual. Also the longterm presence of high level of stress hormones can affect immune system even in people. So I am trying to avoid that if possible.

Thanks for your input though


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> A. She is friendly towards dogs, just not towards people who stare/interact with her.
> B. For the next two weeks, we will be doing heavy separation anxiety training which will involve me giving her real meaty bone before leaving for only like 15min and then slowly increasing the time etc.. Previously, I can only work on this training during weekends and it is definitely working. In 2 months (or 16 days of weekend time), we started from her crying the minute I closed the crate to her being able to be completely ok in crate alone for at least 15min and her liking crate so much that she normally chooses to sleep in crate herself so I think this method is working. I also will be only feeding her before I leave and hopefully in 2 weeks we can increase 15min to close to 4 hours so that I can go back to school. I read lots of stuff after my dog tried to bite vet, and I am pretty sure electric shock is stressful to dogs, and stress causes release of stress hormones which can stay in dog's system from 2days up to 7 days which will make the dog more edgy and reactive than usual. Also the longterm presence of high level of stress hormones can affect immune system even in people. So I am trying to avoid that if possible.
> 
> Thanks for your input though


LOL ... outstanding ... "apparently" your nowhere near as "helpless" as you made it seem??? 

Yet again your already "training a Crate???" Had I done that way back in the day I'd most likely not have had five packs to break up and never got those stitches. 

Not really sure I buy your theory?? But what I do know is that the only thing three dog trainers will agree on is ... that one of them is wrong. 

I only explain what I know, it's up to the owner to do what they feel is best. Heck go ahead and add the" soft music and lavender essential oils" and let me know. 

Have a look here for more info on the S/A thing ... take what you need, 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/584842-separation-anxiety-=-shut-up-dog.html


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

giebel said:


> look at the sweet lab at the cafe and ask yourself what have I done wrong?


lol thanks, this pretty much sums up what I feel when I see every other dog who passes by. 

However, I don't think I can completely blame this on genetics. I really did not treat my pup well when I first got her because of my ignorance of dogs in general and the total unexpected behaviours of puppies compared to memories of my old family dog which really frustrated and confused me...I forcefully took stuff out of her mouth as I thought she was being dominant & I gave alpha rolls for her trying to climb up on my bed at night (she of course ends up sleeping on my bed now during day time anyway...) & I gave lots of leash corrections when we first started walking on leash...you name it. I grew up with these methods and my family got away with it probably because our dog was only 15lb. Anyway, I did those to her for 2 weeks and it is obvious to me now how much negative effect those techniques can have on her during her fear period... That is why i need to accept responsibility and deal with it with full commitment now!

And thanks for the advice! I will definitely look into local GSD club. I don't think I want my already eager-biter pup to go through bite work training but their expertise with the breed will definitely help me a lot, thanks!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> I need one I am getting my dog a personal trainer (recommended by local shelter) and I know I need to desensitize starting from a distance and all the specifics about the process (read a ton, watched tons of youtube videos especially Michael Ellis, and discussed with trainer), but the whole thing to a first time dog owner is so stressful. My pup is GREAT when at home with me or when off leash at parks when everyone just ignores her, but when going out on our walks (where strangers unintentionally stare at her or people move in a startling way) she can be so unpredictable and even though I am not a person who generally takes others' comments personally, the looks and comments other people give my dog really make me feel sad. Also this is totally my fault, I can't believe I listened to vet and did not take her on walks until she had her second shots and thus missed out on socialization (I took her to puppy classes and carried her around but obviously this is not enough for GSD breed). I also used punishment techniques when she was a pup for easy fixes + I did not get her from a real reputable breeder and now it is coming back at me. I am really grateful that my dog is still willing to trust me and listen to my commands as long as the stimulus is not staring at her and looking to interact with her (which strangers do all the time ), but I feel hopeless that my damage can not be undone
> 
> Also my building management is threatening me with eviction because my dog is too noisy when I leave her alone at day time. We have worked on separation anxiety for 2 months and there is real progress, but I need to somehow find a quick fix to her barking before management kicks us out. Lots of people suggest me rehoming the pup, but I can't find anyone/any group who can take in such a possible liability (she tried to bite vet when handled except she was muzzled) + she refuses to take commands from anyone except me (she will bark at them) and I suspect her anxiety is gonna get worse with rehoming and I am worried she is gonna bite her new owners (she has never bitten me though, even while I try to hold her down for vet inspection before giving up to her struggles and using a muzzle instead). Also I can't just leave her at a random shelter as all of this is my fault and I can't leave her with a fate of possible euthanasia because of me.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear you're having issues but I just can't stand it when times get tough people resort to re-homing dogs. Thankfully I've never had a people aggressive dog, and I know that can be a major liability. I did have a dog aggressive dog, and I now house my brothers dog about 3-4 days a week which is also dog aggressive. Here's what I did raising pups, that were never people aggressive; I took them out to very crowded places like boardwalks, the middle of town, outdoor fairs, this way the dog was in the presence of hundreds of people at once. Those who wanted to pet the dog I let, I let kids play with them, those who just walked by and ignored the dog also did a huge favor by showing that people are friendly and they go about their business and don't have to interact with the dog. So if you can find the courage to take your dog to crowded places I would do so, because she can't react to so many people at once. Use a muzzle at first and just walk around.
Now here's what I did with my dog aggressive dog, and my brother did the same thing with his dog aggressive dog and we both think it's the reason they act this way (lunging, barking). We both let them meet and greet any and every dog passing by on walks. I look back and regret it because you can probably predict that a person will behave normally, but you cannot predict how a strange dog will act, and some were very aggressive with my pups. Pinning them down, trying to hump them, barking right in her face made my bitch very dog aggressive.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I'm sorry to hear you're having issues but I just can't stand it when times get tough people resort to re-homing dogs. Thankfully I've never had a people aggressive dog, and I know that can be a major liability. I did have a dog aggressive dog, and I now house my brothers dog about 3-4 days a week which is also dog aggressive. Here's what I did raising pups, that were never people aggressive; I took them out to very crowded places like boardwalks, the middle of town, outdoor fairs, this way the dog was in the presence of hundreds of people at once. Those who wanted to pet the dog I let, I let kids play with them, those who just walked by and ignored the dog also did a huge favor by showing that people are friendly and they go about their business and don't have to interact with the dog. So if you can find the courage to take your dog to crowded places I would do so, because she can't react to so many people at once. Use a muzzle at first and just walk around.
> Now here's what I did with my dog aggressive dog, and my brother did the same thing with his dog aggressive dog and we both think it's the reason they act this way (lunging, barking). We both let them meet and greet any and every dog passing by on walks. I look back and regret it because you can probably predict that a person will behave normally, but you cannot predict how a strange dog will act, and some were very aggressive with my pups. Pinning them down, trying to hump them, barking right in her face made my bitch very dog aggressive.


This may work with some dogs, but in this case, I wouldn't do this. I personally wouldn't let strangers pet this dog. I would just politely say "no, I'm sorry we're training" if someone asked to pet her. She seems to have fear issues, and in this case, I would think letting her observe people without the pressure of interacting with them would help her regain some trust in her owner a little better.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

A little off topic but since somebody brought it up, I just wanted to clear up a misconception being presented on this thread. I have owned GSDs for decades as well as working in rescue. This has presented me with plenty of opportunity to work with a number of vets. I have never encountered or heard of a vet refusing to accept our breed into their practice.

That comment may be true in that poster's area but it certainly is not common. I would hate to have any newbies reading to think that GSDs are some type of maniacal, out of control savages to the point of vets closing their doors in their faces. That just simply is not true.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A little off topic but since somebody brought it up, I just wanted to clear up a misconception being presented on this thread. I have owned GSDs for decades as well as working in rescue. This has presented me with plenty of opportunity to work with a number of vets. I have never encountered or heard of a vet refusing to accept our breed into their practice.
> 
> That comment may be true in that poster's area but it certainly is not common. I would hate to have any newbies reading to think that GSDs are some type of maniacal, out of control savages to the point of vets closing their doors in their faces. That just simply is not true.


I'd have put "Somebody" in "quotes" myself but it was me. And I got that from "here" there is no shortage of "newbies" showing up and "Badly Behaved" at the vets is also one of there issues.

We have had those discussions on here, and usually "Vet Techs" chime in, and they've reported "some vets" won't work with "GSD's." There is also no shortage of "MWD" that need to be "Muzzled" to be transported with "troops" in vehicles .. but those guys would need to speak to that.

And "some vets" won't work with any larger breed dog ... not my experiance but that's what I've heard here. I have no reason to doubt those members ?? So "Not a Lab" is the usual refrain and when some members find that to be true ... then they are suspect??? But whatever ... "I've already thrown one "fit" for this quarter. It's someone else's turn.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Feel free to misuse punctuation, just don't expect it of others.

Just because some members dogs may have issues at the vet does not mean the vet refuses to treat GSDs. I don't even know what you are talking about regarding muzzled MWDs. Just because a person is responsible and muzzles their dog at the vet once again does not mean that vets turn away the breed.

I have heard on here where some vets and techs don't care to work with GSDs, but they don't turn them away. I don't recall ever reading that any don't work with large breed dogs.

I don't read every thread on here. Can you provide a few links to where that was said?


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

Hey thanks for the tips guys. My vet is actually very good and she throws lots of treats at my dog before trying to handle her, but still it is too much too fast for my dog. My vet does say that my pup has severe fear aggression for such a young pup even among all the poorly bred German Shepherds out there (no offence there are certainly lots of well bred GSD, but to be honest I heard so much about aggressive poorly bred GSD these days it is stupid to not acknowledge it). In fact I just brought her in to the vet today to order some anxitane and calming collar and to arrange her spaying at 5 months and of course to throw treats at her for being calm...I know there are issues with early spaying and hips problems, but both my vet and I think her aggression will cause more problems in her life than hips in the long term. Anxitane is a drug that reduces environmental stresses for dogs, and hopefully it can help make her behaviour training easier.

And to be honest, I would be very very happy if my dog can grow up to be indifferent towards people as long as people don't pet her. She goes absolutely crazy when people go "owwh cute puppy" and extend their hands to pet her before they even look at me. Anyone who directs any energy at her makes her really stressed, like hackles up barking showing teeth stress and I am sure she will bite if they continue to pet her despite warning (as with vet's handling). I just ordered "DO NOT PET" harness on Amazon so hopefully that can make people stop. I also try my best to avoid crowds when I can, and I pretty much constantly feed my dogs when kids are around staring at my dog and I can't retreat for whatever reasons.

And again to be honest, I would choose to rehome her if I can find a responsible experienced home, but I can't (I even offered to pay health insurance monthly to new owners). Having an aggressive dog is like having to shape my life according to her especially for an unexperienced dog owner in university living in apartment. But it is my fault, I have made up the decisions to drop some classes/get part time jobs/pay for training sessions/change schedule to go on walks when no one is around/etc. I am also considering if I can buy insurance for myself as I don't know if this dog is gonna bite me someday as she grows to be a teenager. It is hard, and my highest respect to rescues/people who take on those dogs.


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## dan&diesel (Jan 25, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A little off topic but since somebody brought it up, I just wanted to clear up a misconception being presented on this thread. I have owned GSDs for decades as well as working in rescue. This has presented me with plenty of opportunity to work with a number of vets. I have never encountered or heard of a vet refusing to accept our breed into their practice.
> 
> That comment may be true in that poster's area but it certainly is not common. I would hate to have any newbies reading to think that GSDs are some type of maniacal, out of control savages to the point of vets closing their doors in their faces. That just simply is not true.


My dad and I adopted 3-ish yr old bitch that had virtually no socialization as a pup. She is dog reactive but not people reactive at all. Now, that being said, the first time I took her to the vet she tried to snap at him during the exam. The vet is an experienced GSD owner, he suggested that I leave the room and she breezed through the rest of the exam like a champ. She has never had another problem with the vets or any other people period since. I was taken aback and a little worried at first when she reacted that way, but the way he handled the situation calmly and explained her behavior to me was reassuring and comforting. 

I would think that it's pretty rare, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some vets out there that won't accept GSD's as a patient, based off of that experience. At the end of the day it's a personal preference by the vet. I work with Optometrists and I have some that will see any patient from 2yrs to 99yrs and then I have some that won't see a patient under the age of 12 or anyone that does contact lenses. The qualifications are all the same, they just choose to be a bit more selective based on their preferences.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

Hey just want to share good news!!! I got one part time job offer and will be able to support on-going training sessions. LOL SO HAPPY>


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> Hey just want to share good news!!! I got one part time job offer and will be able to support on-going training sessions. LOL SO HAPPY>




That's great! I think training with a professional trainer will help a lot! 

Don't give up just yet. At four months our puppy was pretty reactive with other dogs - fear and occasionally fear aggression. We just started doing a lot of our training outside the dog park fence where he could see other dogs, and sometimes would just sit there and give him treats as he watched. We also practiced having him focus on us when other dogs walked past, and treated when he did.

Now at almost 9m/o he likes to see other dogs and to meet dogs one on one. He will never be a dog park dog, but that's fine since I wouldn't take him there anyways. Even better, he focuses on us when other dogs are around. I don't think it was what we did that made the only difference - I think a lot of it was that he just kind of grew out of the reactivity as well. 

I would say just be patient, maybe sit out on a bench where there's a lot of people she can watch from a distance, and just give her treats when she watches them calmly or focuses on you. Most of all find a trainer that knows about stranger aggression and get some in person help. I bet in a few months with some work you'll be surprised by how far she's come!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Dan That is pure speculation and opinion, I am asking for verification. It is a vet's job to know how to handle an aggressive dog. Pain aggression is nothing new. Vets don't do just wellness checks.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@Snow, am not sure what your vet is getting at regarding a pediatric spay and aggression. Can you please explain?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

THe op post re the vet could be based on a individual practitioners belief system about the breed. Also a lot of vets in our area offer no help or advice regarding reactivity and if your in a small town area dog behaviorists and trainers other then group training is few and far between. I chose our vet based on her experience with GSDs. She is a former neighbor. Still miss her. Worked w/ a trainer who disliked GSDs as breed .know a vet who is afraid of dogs. He was a joy(heavy sarcasm) as was that trainer. People in various fields are not necessarily objective or balanced.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Snow, am not sure what your vet is getting at regarding a pediatric spay and aggression. Can you please explain?


She is worried that her aggression will get even worse after hormones kick in.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Unless I am wrong, I believe that usually a very early spay is likely to do more harm than good, even in regards to aggression. Might want to do further research on that before you go ahead and do it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> She is worried that her aggression will get even worse after hormones kick in.


You wrote: "Also this is totally my fault, I can't believe I listened to vet and did not take her on walks until she had her second shots and thus missed out on socialization"

You don't think the vet might be giving you more bad advice?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A little off topic but since somebody brought it up, I just wanted to clear up a misconception being presented on this thread. I have owned GSDs for decades as well as working in rescue. This has presented me with plenty of opportunity to work with a number of vets. I have never encountered or heard of a vet refusing to accept our breed into their practice.
> 
> That comment may be true in that poster's area but it certainly is not common. I would hate to have any newbies reading to think that GSDs are some type of maniacal, out of control savages to the point of vets closing their doors in their faces. That just simply is not true.


I told my vet that my pup had become dog aggressive, they simply told me that they will right away put her in the room as soon as I walk in to prevent any mishaps. Attacking the vet is another thing that I completely understand if they choose not to deal with it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I told my vet that my pup had become dog aggressive, they simply told me that they will right away put her in the room as soon as I walk in to prevent any mishaps. Attacking the vet is another thing that I completely understand if they choose not to deal with it.


That's why they have muzzles, for the safety of vets and techs.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Feel free to misuse punctuation, just don't expect it of others.
> 
> Just because some members dogs may have issues at the vet does not mean the vet refuses to treat GSDs. I don't even know what you are talking about regarding muzzled MWDs. Just because a person is responsible and muzzles their dog at the vet once again does not mean that vets turn away the breed.
> 
> ...


Another myth that vets refuse to treat any one breed. Why do people post things like that? Imjavent read the whole thread either, just happened to see your post. I left a vet who didn't like GSDs, but they treated them anyway. Just. It very well. In fact, they have a contract with the local K-9 unit. I had a vet refuse to treat a rat once. They said it wasn't their area of expertise, but they sent us to a small animal vet who did. I also know our dog and cat vets don't treat birds, again for the same reason.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Unless I am wrong, I believe that usually a very early spay is likely to do more harm than good, even in regards to aggression. Might want to do further research on that before you go ahead and do it.


Oh wow thanks for letting me know, I did some research on it and it seems that spaying can actually cause more aggression in dogs spayed before 12 months old! Lol the belief that altering the dog early to decrease behaviour problems is somehow so rooted in my head that I did not even question it.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> Oh wow thanks for letting me know, I did some research on it and it seems that spaying can actually cause more aggression in dogs spayed before 12 months old! Lol the belief that altering the dog early to decrease behaviour problems is somehow so rooted in my head that I did not even question it.


You're quite welcome! I'm all for people doing what is best for them in regards to spay/neuter, but I do hope people realize that those hormones are not just there to make puppies! My vet strongly supports waiting to spay/neuter until after maturity, which would be after 18 months for most large breed females. Again, you need to do what is right for you, but I truly don't think spaying her when she is that young will net you the results you are after.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's why they have muzzles, for the safety of vets and techs.


Yes, but what about when it's time to check the dogs teeth and gums?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Yes, but what about when it's time to check the dogs teeth and gums?


Then you show them the teeth and gums if it can be safely done.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> Yes, but what about when it's time to check the dogs teeth and gums?


A dog that bites would have to be sedated for an oral exam for everyone's safety. Or the owner can take a video.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Feel free to misuse punctuation, just don't expect it of others.
> 
> Just because some members dogs may have issues at the vet does not mean the vet refuses to treat GSDs. I don't even know what you are talking about regarding muzzled MWDs. Just because a person is responsible and muzzles their dog at the vet once again does not mean that vets turn away the breed.
> 
> ...


June 2014 Hero Dogs National Geographic, a "GSD" ... repelling down the side of a roof. Wearing a "muzzle" they did not say "why??" Pretty much any book on "Dog's of War" will show imagines of "Muzzled" MWD riding in the back of transport vehicles. 

And "War Vets" on "here" have spoke to this. And some of the reasons why that is done. And maybe you don't recall reading on here that "some veterinarians" flat refuse to work with "GSD's" or any large breed dogs but I do. 

The OP said "my" GSD behaves badly at the "Vet's" and I said "yes" others have said the same. I have no reason to discount there observations of there dogs??? On the other hand on "Boxerforum" in the few years I've been there ... I've not seen a single thread where "this" is a problem??? Soooo you know ... what's up with that???

At any rate you did "ask" a "reasonable question" but you know people "accuse" me of "saying to much and not listening enough ??" And when I give indication that I do indeed listen, ... "it's well you misunderstood!" Get's old ... most likely if "anyone could fine those threads of which you speak, it would be "me??" But this time ... "I'll say no, I won't!" I take people at there word. Most likely a "flaw on my part" I suppose but I don't care. But if someone cares, that much ... then they can do a search on the topic if I were going to, I'd "just Google Chip18 and Aggression here and "Vet's???" I'd add ... "Good luck" with that. 

Hopefully "this" was at least a "respectful" refusal to comply???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> June 2014 Hero Dogs National Geographic, a "GSD" ... repelling down the side of a roof. Wearing a "muzzle" they did not say "why??" Pretty much any book on "Dog's of War" will show imagines of "Muzzled" MWD riding in the back of transport vehicles.
> 
> And "War Vets" on "here" have spoke to this. And some of the reasons why that is done. And maybe you don't recall reading on here that "some veterinarians" flat refuse to work with "GSD's" or any large breed dogs but I do.
> 
> ...


This isn't about why MWDs wear muzzles.

In the few years you have been on Boxer forum, you have never seen a single thread where "this" is a problem. What is "this"? I don't know what you are talking about. 

Nobody disputed that there are dogs of any and every breed that may act up at the vets. That was never my question. You declared that many vets refuse to treat German Shepherds. You said you saw it on here many times. I asked for you to document your declaration, that's all. 

I am not talking about any old threads. I asked you to provide links to those old threads that "you" are talking about.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This isn't about why MWDs wear muzzles.


Well I brought it up and you asked for a follow up .. so yeah ... you got me. I'm not a "Military Vet" .. I'm a "Navy Brat" but if there are "Vet's" on here and if they chose to address "MWD and Muzzles" ... they can.  



MineAreWorkingline said:


> In the few years you have been on Boxer forum, you have never seen a single thread where "this" is a problem. What is "this"? I don't know what you are talking about.


 Well I thought "this" was self evident but my bad. To explain ... "Boxers" behaving badly at Vet visits." I am a member in good standing on two "Boxer Boards" and no one reports ... "Vet" visits as an "issue???" Not saying it does not happen ... but it's "clearly" not the"norm." GSD's on the other hand ... yeah "I've" seen vet visit as an "issue" on more than one occasion. 

It was many years and many "Boxers" before I personally saw a "Boxer" that you would not want meet to meet in an uncontrolled situation??? I was stunned??? 




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nobody disputed that there are dogs of any and every breed that may act up at the vets. That was never my question. You declared that many vets refuse to treat German Shepherds. You said you saw it on here many times. I asked for you to document your declaration, that's all.
> 
> I am not talking about any old threads. I asked you to provide links to those old threads that "you" are talking about.


Hmm if I said* "many??* Then I misspoke?? But that "Vet visit's"are an issues with "GSD's" is not uncommon, I'm good with that. 

I've seen those threads and "despite my volume of "verbiage" ... I've not been here that long. 

I have "zero" issue in vigorously defending my positions and recommendations. My "GSD" has zero issues with the vet! But "apparently" I am not "JQP??" But my wife "is" ... and she was uh ... "miffed" when I said "Rocky" does not need a freaking "Muzzle" to go to the vet! "I" put the work in and I know "my dog" and he is good!" 

As I view it "your asking me to defend" what I have heard from other members "first hand experiance" with there dogs and there "experiance" with vet visits?? And my answer is "NO!" I will not! "They" know who they are and if they see "this thread" they can speak for themselves. 

My plate is full! Sorry if that "answer" is not acceptable to you?? But it is an answer, I run up against "Pro's"all the time! And in as much as I have not trained hundreds of dogs for numerous years ... I Suppose I have to "apologise" for learning so much from so few dogs??" So yeah my bad there?? But while you may not find my "none answer" acceptable??? It is an answer and on accountant of as I am "easily" miffed ... that"s the best I am "willing" to do. Ask "Selzer" if you want "advise" on how to deal with "tools" like me?? 

Freaking "tool" that I can be ... she got compliance! I say you can't get "compliance" from a dog by "fighting with them!! And ... she did that to me??? I was stunned, but she got an answer to what ever that issue was?? I "acknowledged " what she did and "complied!' 

I don't know that thread either ... but I remember it happened. I was stunned but had no choice but to "acknowledge what she did ... "people thing." It's not always about the dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well I brought it up and you asked for a follow up .. so yeah ... you got me. I'm not a "Military Vet" .. I'm a "Navy Brat" but if there are "Vet's" on here and if they chose to address "MWD and Muzzles" ... they can.
> 
> Well I thought "this" was self evident but my bad. To explain ... "Boxers" behaving badly at Vet visits." I am a member in good standing on two "Boxer Boards" and no one reports ... "Vet" visits as an "issue???" Not saying it does not happen ... but it's "clearly" not the"norm." GSD's on the other hand ... yeah "I've" seen vet visit as an "issue" on more than one occasion.
> 
> ...


Chip, let's cut out the back and forth bickering. There is nothing to be gained. Either the links exist or they don't. :smile2:

I am not asking you to defend what somebody else said, that would be unreasonable. 

*Your quote: "There is no shortage of "Vet's" that will just flat not work with "GSD's" because your dog's behaviour is "typical!""

And this: "Tons of "GSD's" are "particular "PIA's" at the vet and lots of vet's flat won't deal with them!"*

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8345169-post7.html

If you can't document this, then perhaps it does not belong on a GSD forum where people come to learn about the breed. I know that I, am many others, find this poor misrepresentation of our breed highly insulting and not something we want to see promoted as the truth about our beloved breed when, apparently, it can not be substantiated and is untrue for the majority if not for all. :frown2:

Newbies considering our breed should not be led to believe that they will have problems finding a vet to treat the puppy they have either newly added or are thinking about adding. :surprise:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have not read this thread except for the last post. No vet can refuse to treat any dog. The vet may make it plain to see they don't like dealing with a particular dog/breed. Gsd's are known to pain in the butts at vets office. I do recommend going to a vet who is comfortable and more understanding of the breed and good with German shepherds - there are vets that you can just plainly see that are not comfortable. It is good to ask around -what vets are good at handling German shepherds in your area. If you don't know anyone with German shepherds this is where these forums can be helpful.


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## SnowShepherdJ (Feb 6, 2017)

@MineAreWorkingline
@Chip18

I am not exactly sure what the argument is about, but if it is about my vet, I would like to point out that my vet is good people, their knowledge may not be updated but they never treat my dog poorly because she is a GSD. My pup has reactivity towards strangers, not only targeted towards vet, and the fact that my dog needed to be muzzled at the vet was simply because she reacted so violently when my vet even attempted to pet her after throwing tons of treats. Muzzle was a good decision, or else I am sure my dog would have bitten. I really don't think my vet is at fault for the muzzle and I really appreciate that they place special order of anxiety drugs just for my one dog only! 

And to those interested in the breed who might be reading, I have seen tons of very well behaved GSDs in lots of places, my pup and other poorly behaved GSDs are the results of bad breedings and bad trainings and sometimes one single bad experience that you can avoid by asking for advice and reading through all the "Is this a good breeder" thread on this forum. Please don't let my dog discourages you from getting a GSD...a well bred one is truly magnificent. (And believe me, I have gotten a fairly cheap pup but the money I have spent and will spend on all sorts of things regarding her issues have added up to be way more than a well bred one...)

And to Mineareworkingline and Chip, as the thread starter I would like to ask you two a favor: please try to keep this debate from going further hostile. I don't know this is a heated issue here, sorry for bringing this up.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> @MineAreWorkingline
> @Chip18
> 
> I am not exactly sure what the argument is about, but if it is about my vet, I would like to point out that my vet is good people, their knowledge may not be updated but they never treat my dog poorly because she is a GSD. My pup has reactivity towards strangers, not only targeted towards vet, and the fact that my dog needed to be muzzled at the vet was simply because she reacted so violently when my vet even attempted to pet her after throwing tons of treats. Muzzle was a good decision, or else I am sure my dog would have bitten. I really don't think my vet is at fault for the muzzle and I really appreciate that they place special order of anxiety drugs just for my one dog only!
> ...


Well said Snow.

I apologize for further taking things off topic after it was first derailed. 

I have no problem with dogs being muzzled at a vet. Safety first should never be a bad reflection on our breed or on any dog, let alone on the vet requiring it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> *If you can't document this, then perhaps it does not belong on a GSD forum where people come to learn about the breed.* I know that I, am many others, find this poor misrepresentation of our breed highly insulting and not something we want to see promoted as the truth about our beloved breed when, apparently,* it can not be substantiated and is untrue for the majority if not for all. :frown2:*


I have no idea if "it's" (GSD's behaving badly) at the Vet is "true" for the majority of "GSD???" That is "your" interpretation of what I said??? That is not what I said??? 

Yeah most likely "if" I were willing ... I could find those threads??? But "I" am not willing to do so. If those members of whom I speak, are still here and see this thread and "choose" to chime in??? They are free to do so. Yess ... I did bring it up "becasue" it is what I read "here" as "reported by others." Good Enough for me but as they say "Not my Monkey ... Not my show." 




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Newbies considering our breed should not be led to believe that they will have problems finding a vet to treat the puppy they have either newly added or are thinking about adding. :surprise:


Hmm, there seems to be a "new trend as of late because "again" that is not what I said??? But whatever, I can't control how people chose to "interpret" what I say??? If people see my post and there take away is "simply" ... "Bad at vets???" Then most likely they ought not to have gotten a "GSD" anyway??? I'm good with that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> @MineAreWorkingline
> @Chip18
> 
> I am not exactly sure what the argument is about, but if it is about my vet, I would like to point out that my vet is good people, their knowledge may not be updated but they never treat my dog poorly because she is a GSD. My pup has reactivity towards strangers, not only targeted towards vet, and the fact that my dog needed to be muzzled at the vet was simply because she reacted so violently when my vet even attempted to pet her after throwing tons of treats. Muzzle was a good decision, or else I am sure my dog would have bitten. I really don't think my vet is at fault for the muzzle and I really appreciate that they place special order of anxiety drugs just for my one dog only!
> ...


Aww my bad and no I was not pointing out your dog and your "Vet" I was simply saying ... others have reported the same thing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> I have no idea if "it's" (GSD's behaving badly) at the Vet is "true" for the majority of "GSD???" That is "your" interpretation of what I said??? That is not what I said???
> 
> Yeah most likely "if" I were willing ... I could find those threads??? But "I" am not willing to do so. If those members of whom I speak, are still here and see this thread and "choose" to chime in??? They are free to do so. Yess ... I did bring it up "becasue" it is what I read "here" as "reported by others." Good Enough for me but as they say "Not my Monkey ... Not my show."
> 
> ...


I said nothing about GSD behavior. Are you sure you are responding to my posts?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SnowShepherdJ said:


> Oh wow thanks for letting me know, I did some research on it and it seems that spaying can actually cause more aggression in dogs spayed before 12 months old! Lol the belief that altering the dog early to decrease behaviour problems is somehow so rooted in my head that I did not even question it.


Hmm Ok that is interesting??? If one adopts a dog from a shelter situation nine times out of ten to Spay or Neuter is not there call. That dog will be fixed or he will not be released!

Whether or not it matters depends on the dog and the "Situation!" Apparently ... I had the worst case scenario??? My GSD was 7 months when I got him and already neutered ... so not my call. But in my home he was one of three ... which included one "Female Boxer (a non factor) and one Dominant Male "American Band Dawg" who "never strated a single conflict! 

But my first OS WL GSD already neutered male, at seven months when I got him and no issues that I saw??? Seven months later it was "Game On!!" He started five pack fights and he sent me to the "ER" for stitches in the last of those! "Rocky" always started it! I still have a permanently bent little finger to this day as a "reminder of those days. 

And after that he started the people crap???? Perhaps had he been in a home where he was one of two dogs .... none of that would have ever happened I don't know, but he was with me and it did. I fully expected that he had a "serious" Dog Aggression issue??? But "apparently not???" His issues was purely a "Pack Issue??" The only dog issues I had were solved simply with a "POP " on his head with the loose end of the leash once! But you know his "issues" were not "fear based" ... so there is that. 

But my conclusions based on my "experiance" was that "Neutering" as a solution for "Dog Aggression" does not mean "Crap!" And neither does "formal Obedience training!" Sit Stay Down, don't bum rush thresholds, don't exit vehicles without permissions and stay on the lawn etc,etc! Was not enough??? " None of that is where the problem lay???

Rules Structure and Limitations, were ultimately the "solution" to my problems but it took stitches before I "finally discovered that!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I said nothing about GSD behavior. Are you sure you are responding to my posts?


The "OP" requested a "Truce" so ... I'm gonna let it go.


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