# Proposed Set Up - Opinions?



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Hello!

So, being a teacher, I plan on getting my pup at the beginning of the summer so I have almost 3 uninterrupted months with him. However, one school starts up again in the fall, I will be gone about 9-10 hours a day (school starts at 7:30 so I have to leave the house by around 6:30, ends at 2:30 and get home by 3:30, 6:30-3:30 = 9 hours, maybe less or more given traffic).

If I get my pup at 8 weeks/2 months, when I go back to school he should be about 5 months old. As I understand it, he'll only be able to hold his potty for about 5-6 hours at that age.

I've been debating options on what I can do for those next 3 months until he is about 8 months old when he can realistically be crated and hold his bladder for the entire work day. (My dog will be in an intensive training program involving Schutzhund 2-3 times per week, obedience training, long walks and hikes daily--all appropriate intensity to his development level of course--so exercise and mental stimulation won't be an issue. And, while the crate will remain open so he has the option, once he is reliable in-house with chewing/pottying he can sleep at the foot of my bed, so he won't be crated at night unless he wants to sleep in there.)

I live in an apartment so there is no backyard. I am not comfortable having a dog walker come by and have access to my home and my roommate has a similar work schedule. I'd really only have a dog walker come as a last resort option.

*Here is what I was thinking:*

I could set up a living room crate that connects with an xpen and a potty pad or grassy potty area. We would do training so he knows he can potty on the potty spot. Now, generally I am NOT a fan of pee pads. I want my dog to be house trained and know potting is for outside. However, that said, I don't want him to have accidents in his crate either an he needs to be able to go potty while I am at work. I thought this might be a good happy-medium and the grass would still replicate a tad bit of the outdoor experience. When I am home he would have to go potty outside only, not use the open area. It would be blocked off and only for when I am gone.

He will get a short walk and potty chance before I leave for work and a chance to potty as soon as I get home, followed by whatever training/activity we are doing for the day.

Here are some images. These are just examples of the concept and I would get the correct sizes for a GSD.





































Until he is old enough to hold his potty, what do you think of this set up? My concerns:

*Will this teach him to potty in the house?
*I've heard the fake grass is unsanitary and not as good a potty pads if you must use them?
*He could jump out of the xpen. What if I rigged a "lid" to cover the top?
*I am interested in installing a 'baby' surveillance camera with a phone app so I can monitor and check in on him with my phone while gone. Too obsessive?

I am very open to suggestions. If this is a crap idea then I may just have to look into reputable dog walkers to come and take him out. I just hate to trust my home and my pet to someone else, especially when I have a very specific training program in mind for how is to be handled when waling and being let out.

There is a slight chance, if my prep period is before or after lunch, I will have enough time to come home and let him out myself mid day, but I don't want to bank on this.

Thank you all!


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not much for crating all day at any age, but what if he barks all day?


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not much for crating all day at any age, but what if he barks all day?


It's certainly not ideal, but it is the reality for many working owners who can't bring their pet to their worksite. My father was a hunter for years and his hunting team had working pointer bird dogs. They would sometimes be kenneled for up to 18-24 hours with only bathroom breaks when traveling and it never adversely affected them. The were worked and exercised heavily and mostly slept in their crates or chewed their toys. Even when the crates were open they would often freely choose to go inside. Many working dogs are kenneled the majority of their lives outside of their 'work'. So while I would rather bring my dog with if I could, I don't have many qualms about crating him or 9-10 hours a day. He will be exercised/worked extensively in the afternoons/evenings daily. Once he is old enough, if he proves house-safe, he may get free run of the house. But even then, the only difference is he will be walking around the house vs an xpen. Besides when we are working them, what do dogs do all day other than sleep and play with their toys? In my experience not much. Unless they are performing destructive behaviors due to lack of exercise.

As I indicated, I am planning on installing a baby monitor with video feed (they have inexpensive set ups that work with a phone app) to monitor him. If he has a barking issue I would just have to try to mitigate the behavior or find a different solution.

But again, I agree, it is not ideal to not have them with you more regularly.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'd look at a method to cover the pen, might come in handy, at that age mine had no problem escaping over our 40+ inch gate.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nigel said:


> I'd look at a method to cover the pen, might come in handy, at that age mine had no problem escaping over our 40+ inch gate.


Agreed. Mine scaled it at about 4 months without a problem. My pup is just getting used to the crate at 4.5 months and he does bark. I also don't think crating for 9-10 hours a day without a break is ideal. Sometimes it's unavoidable and has to be done occasionally. I think GSDs as a breed need more human interaction.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Nigel said:


> I'd look at a method to cover the pen, might come in handy, at that age mine had no problem escaping over our 40+ inch gate.


Yes I agree. If I employ this method I think it will be a pre-requisite to have the 'lid'. Seeing GSDs jump those vertical walls in Schutzhund training has been more than enough to convince me no fence is a good enough deterrent! haha. Some xpens must have a clip on wire lid attachment? If not I suppose I could Jerry-rig one...

I guess my bigger concern is the potty issue. I do NOT want to teach him it is ok to potty in the house. I'm just unsure if 3 months of allowing it only while crated and only on that one potty spot would be enough to mess that up. When home that portion of the set up would be blocked off so he would have to go out to go potty. I'm still worried about it though. Because I also don;t want to teach him he can potty in his crate. I would think having he attachment xpen would deter that but then again...


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I know, Persinette, and there may be more people that agree with you then would with me. But The dogs perception is what will matter, and I think for a lot of them, there's a difference in that perception between traveling and everyday routine. Then there's breed differences ,,, But I'm not going to try and argue that, given the choices, I'd go with the most freedom of movement you can, while keeping him safe. As close to a secure kennel you can get, that space will allow.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I know, Persinette, and there may be more people that agree with you then would with me. But The dogs perception is what will matter, and I think for a lot of them, there's a difference in that perception between traveling and everyday routine. Then there's breed differences ,,, But I'm not going to try and argue that, given the choices, I'd go with the most freedom of movement you can, while keeping him safe. As close to a secure kennel you can get, that space will allow.


You are very right. Breed differences do play a part and I totally agree with you, I wish I could bring him with me to work. If I get a job at a Private School it may be an option one day  However, as a public school teacher, the liability and allergy issues make it super impossible.

I am hoping to, in effect, create an almost dog-run type set up that will allow, as you said, the most movement freedom possible. Like how some owners, even though they have a yard, do dog runs since they don't trust the dog not to jump out/strangers riling the dog at the fence, etc. (I would feel uncomfortable leaving my dog in a yard, fenced or not, as well).

I don't want you to think I disagree with you, I totally do agree :blush: 3 months out of the year he will be virtually uncrated plus we'll have extended winter and spring holidays  I'm hoping to take him on my backpacking excursions (I'd like to backpack along the Alaskan Kenai Peninsula with him and other fun treks), kayaking, camping, hiking, plus the Shutzhund and obedience work. He will be a very active busy doggie! It's really the best I can do given the situation except not get a dog, but (I suppose selfishly) I want a companion for all my outdoors adventures and at least I know I'll be doing more with him than many other dog owners out there (not so much on this forum, but you know the kind of owners I mean).

But again, if I absolutely had to, I could hire a dog walker. I just really don't like stranger in my home or handling my dog, regardless of how high recommended they may come.

I really appreciate all the feedback so far! I want to iron out a solid plan before I bring the pup home either this summer or next summer so I am ready to go.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would look into a dog walker. S/he should have no problem holding it though. I don't know who makes that stuff up but my pups have all been able to hold it overnight after about 12 weeks and some way before that.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi. I just read your post "I think I found my breeder" and it seems as though the people who responded to that post really know a great deal about GSDs.
I'd suggest that you consult them regarding this post.
My GSD pup, Finn just turned 6 mos. and 68lbs and that set-up would absolutely never work for him, I'm sure it would not contain him. GS pups are very high spirited, months 5 and 6 are particularly difficult (I think it's their adolescence). 
I'm no expert on GSDs but I know the demands put on you as a teacher which is a great deal... Teaching is a tough job. 
Add to that---Before you even get to school, you'll sit in traffic, then you will WORK, then at the end of the school day you will again sit in traffic, then when you finally arrive home, and after you deal with your juvenile delinquent (LOL) you will need to prepare for your next day at school. Phew!!!!
I don't mean to discourage you...
I truly respect that you are trying so hard to arrange your life to accommodate a puppy.
Ps. Thanks for being a teacher, I have a feeling that you are very good at your job.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

BowWowMeow said:


> I would look into a dog walker. S/he should have no problem holding it though. I don't know who makes that stuff up but my pups have all been able to hold it overnight after about 12 weeks and some way before that.


Good food for thought! Since I'll have almost 3 months with my little bug, I will monitor his potty habits and see how he does, how soon he is able to sleep through the night with no potty breaks, how long he goes during the day when we're out and about before he does his business. I just like having solid contingency plans. Nothing worse than trying to figure out a problem with a squirming ball of fuzz running about! :wild:


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Findlay said:


> Hi. I just read your post "I think I found my breeder" and it seems as though the people who responded to that post really know a great deal about GSDs.
> I'd suggest that you consult them regarding this post.
> My GSD pup, Finn just turned 6 mos. and 68lbs and that set-up would absolutely never work for him, I'm sure it would not contain him. GS pups are very high spirited, months 5 and 6 are particularly difficult (I think it's their adolescence).
> I'm no expert on GSDs but I know the demands put on you as a teacher which is a great deal... Teaching is a tough job.
> ...


Thank you so much for your post! Yes, teaching is a very taxing job, and thank you for your kind words about my profession choice :apple: This is one reason, even though I have narrowed it down to the breeders I would like to work with when the time comes, I will likely be getting my pup next summer instead of this summer. I'm still a new teacher so the first few years are particularly rough getting settled at a new school site and developing your curriculum, existing on a contract that needs to be renewed before you know you still ahave a job. While always taxing, it does become easier once you have an established curriculum to fall back on and are tenured so you know you will be working at the same place year after year unless you initiate a move (or do something to get yourself fired ).

May I ask what set up you have? Thank you for the feedback. Do you feel the proposed set up wouldn't contain him due to the lack of top on the xpen or just in general he would pose a jail break? I'm always curious to learn how other's manage to fit the dogs we love and crave into hectic lives!


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BowWowMeow said:


> I would look into a dog walker. S/he should have no problem holding it though. I don't know who makes that stuff up but my pups have all been able to hold it overnight after about 12 weeks and some way before that.


Ditto.

A five month old pup should be able to hold it for the day.

I was just going to suggest that before you spend a bunch of money on a pen, is there a room in your apartment that you can lock puppy in? 
I haven't seen very many indoor pens that will contain a bored, determined GSD pup.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Not sure if it was mentioned in your other thread, what about looking into older pups? One that at the end of your summer may be mature enough to be crated longer.

ETA our last 2 males were both able to hold it for a work day at that age, but I didn't know if that's the norm.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, this really isn't going to go over well...

when we are house training, I generally advise people to cut water off at 7PM, and take the pup out the last time at 11PM, and he should then make it through the night until 6AM -- 7 hours, and I am talking about 8-10 week old puppies. 

This means no water from 7 PM to 7 AM. Then the water dish is set out, and the pup can drink freely until 7 PM, definitely water is provided when they eat, especially if they are eating kibble. 

The idea is that the pup will have a lot more success with house training if he isn't forced to cross his legs, the entire day. If he is drinking all day, probably due to it being there, the bladder will be full and eventually he will need to let it out. 

I think what I would do, is I would not feed the dog in the morning. I would plan to shift that sleep time to the day. I would feed the dog at 3:30 or 4:00PM, I would let the dog potty and then take him in and give him is first meal of the day. Water is set down at this point and left down. I would then make dinner, eat and then the dog is ready for his walk/training/whatever. At 10:00PM, I would provide his second meal of the day. I would take the dog out at 11PM, and leave the water down for him. When I woke up at 5:00AM to let the pup out and get ready, I would put the water dish up. 

The dog would be without water for the same time frame that a lot of dogs are without water, all night. He will have access to water during and after both meals of the day, and he will then be able to have ample time for stuff to move through the system before the water is picked up and he his bedded down for the day. 9 hours is a long time, but we often allow a dog to go this long at night without water. And younger dogs can go longer without pottying, can make it through the night if you turn off food and water a few hours before that last potty break. It is just scheduling your dog for success. As he gets a little older, leaving the water bowl down won't be a problem, so long as your apartment isn't abnormally hot. I mean if it is 90 degrees in there, the dog is going to roast and will need water. But during the school year, if we are talking 70 degree temperatures, I do not see an issue with moving the feeding schedule to fit your work schedule within reason. 

I am not a fan of pee-pads. And yes, this will complicate house training, as sometimes it is allowed and sometimes not. 

The x-pens that are square can be climbed like rungs on a ladder, by four months old puppies are going over them like they are not there. Usually, they don't try to go over 48 inch ones, but if you start out small, and they learn they are able to go over it, then you could be in trouble. Pens with vertical rungs are much better, can't be climbed over. It will be while before your dog can leap over 36 or 39 inches.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Not sure if it was mentioned in your other thread, what about looking into older pups? One that at the end of your summer may be mature enough to be crated longer.
> 
> ETA our last 2 males were both able to hold it for a work day at that age, but I didn't know if that's the norm.


I had considered that, but I really want to go through the entire puppy experience. Besides bonding with the little fella, I'm sure my training and socialization techniques will be different than other's. I want to be able to rear him my way from the beginning.

Also, as to the other post about confining him to a certain room (and maybe having the crate open for him to go into if he wants to to nap?) that could be a possibility! Part of the reason I decided to wait until next summer to get a pup is because I will be moving once I get my full-time teaching position at the end of my program. I'm not sure what the space will look like. I would definitely be open to this though! If he can hold it that would be great! If not I could still try the same method I was describing in the xpen scenario, but in the room instead.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

selzer said:


> Ok, this really isn't going to go over well...
> 
> when we are house training, I generally advise people to cut water off at 7PM, and take the pup out the last time at 11PM, and he should then make it through the night until 6AM -- 7 hours, and I am talking about 8-10 week old puppies.
> 
> ...


I REALLY appreciate your reply! I have been lurking these forums for awhile now trying to read all the threads to learn what I can while I'm still in pre-puppy mode, and you have always left very informative posts that I've come to respect a lot.

The schedule you proposed would actually work well for me given I usually go to bed around 11:30PM and have to get up around 5:00am for work. I like the idea of rotating the clock. This is great to keep in mind. And thanks for the xpen info! If I go that route I will be sure to get the super tall ones.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Given the feedback, this is the crating system I am now thinking of using, assuming my pup is house broken and can hold it at 5 months while I am at work as some people have suggested he might be able to do. We'll go through many dry runs and practices over the course of the summer before work actually starts so i can find out in advance if he has a potty issue or a barking issue (with the help of the baby monitor). If he can't, I'll just have to find a dog walker to take him for a potty break until he can hold it. After reading the advice here and some PMs, it sounds as if the designated potty area inside, even for a little while, is asking for trouble.

I was thinking of sacrificing the better part of my living room, lol, with something like this:









His smaller personal crate/sleeping space could be attached to one of the lower doors similar to this (but with the fully enclosed, large kennel like above): 









I want to give him as much space to play until he is old enough and trained enough have run of the house while I am gone. I think the kennel option above would give him enough room to play with toys and jump around, plus he would still have a designated sleep space.

I'd get a multi-entrance crate to attach like this so I could have better access to the area if I needed it:









Again, this is a work in progress idea. I won't be getting my pup until NEXT summer so a lot can change by then. But it's good to have a plan  Thank you all for the input! I welcome another thoughts as well.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Ok, just jumping in here because I realize we have something in common. Although I still have work to do, I don't teach in the summers. During semesters I work long hours. I am going to add a second dog this May and because my schedule is so demanding during the year I am only looking at dogs between the age of 2 and 4. That's because a puppy takes so much time between training and mental and physical stimulation. 

Just to give you an idea: I typically exercise my 8.5 year old dog 1-2 hours every single day. On work days I get up earlier and go to bed later in order to make sure he gets enough exercise. I don't do any formal training with him anymore but we work on stuff every day still. 

I can't imagine coming home to a crazy puppy every day. I would really encourage you to consider adopting a dog who is through the crazy puppy stage.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes we try too hard. We want things to be better for our dogs, we will go to great expense for them, and yet find that what we did created or exacerbated problems. 

Climbing out won't be a problem, but unless you are talking and indestructable surface, your puppy may cause serious damage. Bored puppies are known to start behaviors that aren't very pleasant, like barking, or chewing. With chewing they will start worrying a thing, then chewing on it, then chewing it up. I am afraid your pup will eat your carpet in the larger kennel. And if he does not, then he may decide that the area is large enough to potty in. 

I think you should buy a 42" or 48" crate and just crate him for the nine hours. He will sleep most of it. If you do not think of the crate like a torture chamber, he will not think a thing of it. It will be routine for him to get in the crate when you are leaving for work. In the crate he is safe -- not able to eat anything questionble, chew stuff up, etc. And he should be comfortable as well -- probably better not to use a pet bed of any sort until after he is out of the chewing stage. And be careful what you leave in with him. A kong or raw marrow bone might be ok. A knotted cotton rope, soaked and put in the freezer might be something good to leave in with him. But lots of toys can be chewed and ingested. 

You may want to invest in a baby gate, so you can start confining him to whatever room you are in, to give him a little more freedome while you are there, and keep an eye on him. Also, at night, I do not give the run of the house, but I will babygate a younster into my bedroom with me. Gives them some freedom, while not giving them the entirety of the house -- while I am there.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BowWowMeow said:


> Ok, just jumping in here because I realize we have something in common. Although I still have work to do, I don't teach in the summers. During semesters I work long hours. I am going to add a second dog this May and because my schedule is so demanding during the year I am only looking at dogs between the age of 2 and 4. That's because a puppy takes so much time between training and mental and physical stimulation.
> 
> Just to give you an idea: I typically exercise my 8.5 year old dog 1-2 hours every single day. On work days I get up earlier and go to bed later in order to make sure he gets enough exercise. I don't do any formal training with him anymore but we work on stuff every day still.
> 
> I can't imagine coming home to a crazy puppy every day. I would really encourage you to consider adopting a dog who is through the crazy puppy stage.


Or you can choose the lines, because what people say about some lines -- their dogs seem to be more of a challenge in the puppy stage. Other lines do not seem to require quite that much. People ought to be able to work from 6:30 - 3:30 and still raise and train a puppy. Maybe some lines are more demanding than others as puppies.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

selzer said:


> Or you can choose the lines, because what people say about some lines -- their dogs seem to be more of a challenge in the puppy stage. Other lines do not seem to require quite that much. People ought to be able to work from 6:30 - 3:30 and still raise and train a puppy. Maybe some lines are more demanding than others as puppies.


This is something I was wondering about. I completely understand all the warnings I am receiving about the work load required in having puppy, especially a working line one, because so many are given up by unprepared owners. But that leaves me to wonder, how does anyone have a puppy then? Do not most people work a regular job or are all people who get puppies stay at home job people/spouses or professional dog trainers? I do not mean this in a snarky way, I am genuinely curious (I know on the internet the tone may seem trite but I honestly don't intend it that way.) I know many people get dogs and don't raise them correctly, but I have to believe some of the competitors at agility shows, Schutzhund trials, etc. have full time jobs and may be single without a partner to help in their dog rearing?

Again, I am just genuinely puzzled how people do it if it is not feasible to work and have a puppy?

I am prepared for the work required. I don't mean to repeat myself on this but I am unsure how many people have read my previous threads: I think I will be ok with the degree of work required, only because this isn't my first time doing intensive training. When I was younger I was pre-Olympic in figure skating and trained twice a day at 4am and after school at 3pm then also on weekends. Once I retired I trained in equestrian sports 6 days a week until I reached nationals and quite after college. I used to train in both sports for 4 hours plus per day between warm ups and cool outs.


----------



## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ok, this really isn't going to go over well...
> 
> when we are house training, I generally advise people to cut water off at 7PM, and take the pup out the last time at 11PM, and he should then make it through the night until 6AM -- 7 hours, and I am talking about 8-10 week old puppies.
> 
> ...


I did the potty pads for maybe three days when mine was very young, but it was always a problem. He was not peeing on it or he was tearing it up or he was sleeping on it instead. So when I got fed up with that, I used pretty much the same method outlined by selzer and it worked beautifully. I would highly recommend taking her(?) advice.

Also, I was 21, single, and working a part time job on top of college when I got my working line pup (WGWL). A little over a year and a lot of training and exercise later, he's a dream. I can completely leave him free in the house and trust him not to get into anything even if I forget tempting things out like leftovers on the stove. Not saying you'll have the exact same experience, but I feel like I got a bit psyched out by other members assuming what my capabilities were instead of focusing on what I knew I could provide and making sure I was meeting his needs on a schedule that worked for me and him. It's completely doable.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Pax8 said:


> I did the potty pads for maybe three days when mine was very young, but it was always a problem. He was not peeing on it or he was tearing it up or he was sleeping on it instead. So when I got fed up with that, I used pretty much the same method outlined by selzer and it worked beautifully. I would highly recommend taking her(?) advice.
> 
> Also, I was 21, single, and working a part time job on top of college when I got my working line pup (WGWL). A little over a year and a lot of training and exercise later, he's a dream. I can completely leave him free in the house and trust him not to get into anything even if I forget tempting things out like leftovers on the stove. Not saying you'll have the exact same experience, but I feel like I got a bit psyched out by other members assuming what my capabilities were instead of focusing on what I knew I could provide and making sure I was meeting his needs on a schedule that worked for me and him. It's completely doable.


Oh gosh thank you for your reply! That really helps. It's great to hear encouraging stories along with the tales of caution! :hug:


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All puppies are different. I have 3 GSDs. My female barked and barked in the crate, the neighbors were very patient, she was very loud. She was about 12 weeks old when I got her and lived outside in her first home for 4 weeks. She learned how to open their back door early on. By the time I got her she wanted to sleep outside and pee inside, very frustrating. They gave her up because they didn't have time for her. For the first couple weeks I was so tired I was falling asleep at my desk at work. She was out of the crate at night at 4 months and out completely when I went to work at 7 months. My son came home on his lunch to let the dogs out, so they never went longer then 5 hours. I got my first male GSD from the shelter and he was about 10 months or so. I believe he is working line, more determined then the female. We were buying a house at this time. He got out of his crate several times. I finally put locks on the crate. When we moved in the house a couple months later, no crate was needed. I don't think he ever had an accident in the house, he was potty trained. With my latest male GSD I was off of work for a couple weeks, which made it easier. He was about 10 weeks when I got him. He hates the crate(getting better now). He has never been crated at night. He barked, scratched and hurt his nose trying to get out. He also peed in his crate all the time, it could be 10 minutes or 3 hours, didn't matter. I tried putting him in a expen, he went over it. I used a higher gate and tried putting him in the bathroom, he got out through the bottom(detached it from the bottom), he then went over it. He also is very good at turning knobs, he figured out how to open the smaller opening on gate. So I resorted to loud music and letting him bark it out we are finally seeing some progress as of last week.

So all dogs are different. In the end they turn out great, but they test the waters and your sanity sometimes. You learn how to become smarter then the dog, because you spend all your free time coming up with ways to make things work. Then you could get lucky and get the perfect pup


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I just don't get it. Why would anyone take one of the most active, intelligent dogs and confine them for 18 hours of a 24 hour day? That's sick. Not just bar them from the outdoors, but put them in a cage inside for most of the day. Then when you sleep, they are required to be down again for another 8 hours.

I can only think that breeders are giving you this advise, not anyone that respects the breed. They are not hamsters.

How can you do that to a GSD? Get a pug!


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I just don't get it. Why would anyone take one of the most active, intelligent dogs and confine them for 18 hours of a 24 hour day? That's sick. Not just bar them from the outdoors, but put them in a cage inside for most of the day. Then when you sleep, they are required to be down again for another 8 hours.
> 
> I can only think that breeders are giving you this advise, not anyone that respects the breed. They are not hamsters.
> 
> How can you do that to a GSD? Get a pug!


I have read your comments before on other people's threads regarding crating and know you to have a rather extremist and confrontational point of view on the matter. Everyone is open to their own opinions. I do not share yours nor do many other people on this forum or the dog world at large. I am open to constructive feedback, not your derogatory language or judgements. We will agree to disagree. Your comments are not appreciated and I will kindly ask you to refrain yourself from commenting on my thread, thank you.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Persinette said:


> This is something I was wondering about. I completely understand all the warnings I am receiving about the work load required in having puppy, especially a working line one, because so many are given up by unprepared owners. But that leaves me to wonder, how does anyone have a puppy then? Do not most people work a regular job or are all people who get puppies stay at home job people/spouses or professional dog trainers? I do not mean this in a snarky way, I am genuinely curious (I know on the internet the tone may seem trite but I honestly don't intend it that way.)
> 
> Again, I am just genuinely puzzled how people do it if it is not feasible to work and have a puppy?


I was a stay at home mom for 20 years. So until recently all my puppies were raised with me home full time. When my kids went off to college I was bored so I now work part-time. I'm still home half day with my dogs. I can not imagine being gone all day. As it is if I'm late or have errands to run I come home to find bouncing off the wall dogs, and they are not crated. They have full run of the house and a dog door to an outside pen and they have each other to keep them company. A single bored dog all day in a crate. I just don't see how it would work. My friends works full time and she has one of the little fluffy dogs even he gets bored and destructive. She either has her retired mom dog sit or when her mom is busy she winds up taking him to doggie day care.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My comments are intended to create "shock value". Please let me explain...There are many that come to this board that are new GSD puppy owners, or those contemplating getting a GSD puppy. Many of those are people who must work full time.

My comments are intended to try to give them a reality check, and when your in "puppy love" sometimes it takes shock value to get back into reality. 

There are many of us who did not realize the GSD's requirements and got one based on the fact that we did not think it through all the way or got in a situation that required us to confine our GSD's in such a way.

If I can help one person or one GSD from getting into this situation. I will do my best to try to overcome the 40-50 hour per week worker from getting a GSD and confining him for most of his life.

Those that are seasoned owners and have made the time and sacrifice to make sure this does not happen to members of the breed have strong feelings for the GSD's that this happens to. The "I just don't have time for a GSD", so they end up in a shelter needs to be reduced.

IMHO, When certain questions are asked on this site about how many hours you can crate a GSD, how long can they hold their bladder, how long can I withhold water etc - that should be taken as more of a caution flag and members steer them away from the breed rather than making concessions to accommodate "their busy work schedule". 

I know my comments are not appreciated by some, but that's ok. This site is not about koom-ba-ya. It's about what's best for the breed and how we humans might discuss different points of view.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> My comments are intended to create "shock value". Please let me explain...There are many that come to this board that are new GSD puppy owners, or those contemplating getting a GSD puppy. Many of those are people who must work full time.
> 
> My comments are intended to try to give them a reality check, and when your in "puppy love" sometimes it takes shock value to get back into reality.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your explanation. I am actually much more receptive to this sort of more constructive dialogue than inflaming comments.

The dog will not be crated at night however once he is potty trained (which should be well before I have to go back to work)--he will sleep at the foot of the bed with me, unless he wishes to sleep in the crate which will be open if he wants it. Until he is more reliable in house my door will be closed so at night he'll be confined to my room to prevent possible problems (I am a light sleeper so if he roams and begins to get in trouble it should wake me up).

I only want to crate him during the day until he is house reliable, then he can have free reign. We will be going on long, fairly strenuous hikes daily because, part of the reason I want a dog, is to take him on multi-week backpacking and kayaking expeditions in Alaska and Canada over the summers. (They have some fantastic kayaking though the ice glaciers!) I'd also love to hike the Appalachian Trail and do camping trips to Yosemite (they have some dog friendly areas).

His crated life will be a short lived one, mostly just his first year until I can trust him in the house. He will be alone at home for 9 hours a day during the work week, but on weekends, winter break, spring break, and summer break he will be having adventures in the woods, lakes, and beaches and with me.

I am planning on doing Schutzhund training 2-3 times per week and obedience training daily. On work days he'll get 2-3 hours of exercise/mental stimulation in a combination of training and walks/hikes or if we are doing Schuzhund work. On the weekends we can do longer more intensive hikes.

All of that said, it is a year from know when I am planning to get my pup next summer. Perhaps my situation will change for the better or ultimately the breed won;t be right for me. Until then, I will continue to research and try to plan for him to have an adventurous life with lots of activities.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Excellent! Hey, can you adopt me too? I want to do all that! lol

You are not the run of the mill - but please let my post stand for those who are. Send picts! Love it!


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Excellent! Hey, can you adopt me too? I want to do all that! lol
> 
> You are not the run of the mill - but please let my post stand for those who are. Send picts! Love it!


I really, really appreciate that. And oh you bet! Have you seen some of the amazing photos those kayakers and backpackers get! I'm going to get a Go Pro camera to record our adventures. They even have a dog harness attachment!

I'm training for stuff like this. I need a hardy, obedient dog to take on these kinds of excursions and treks:

*these are not photos of me, just examples of the excursions I've begun training for. Luckily in San Diego we have lots of options for kayaking and hiking trails and are pretty close to the snow if you drive a few hours.





































This one made me laugh!










I gotta start bulking up to carry the pack for 8+ hours per day on a multi-week packing excursion. But in all seriousness, I'm going to invest in a dog thermal sleeping bag and some emergency gear as well. Alaskan nights can get to be sub zero. My own sleeping bag will be -20 rated and they have dog versions as well so my pup will be super toasty in an emergency. Summers usually don't drop below zero though unless the weather takes a nasty run and your in those parts of the mountains.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Awesome! I lived in PB till I was 18. Wilbur Ave off Mission Blvd, small world


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Awesome! I lived in PB till I was 18. Wilbur Ave off Mission Blvd, small world


Sweet! I live in PB now. Nice, beach vibey town. I'll miss it when I move.


----------



## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

My 12 week old GSD currently has a XL crate & X-pen combo set up in our kitchen nook, since the tile is easy to clean up any indoor accidents when we're not home. Its not ideal to "let" him go there, but after bathing poop off him and scrubbing a crate 2x a day for a couple weeks, it's less stressful all around. I can tell he's getting to the point where he can hold it longer - he definitely doesn't go near as much as he was 4-5 weeks ago obviously, but he's also not near the "all-day" point. Whenever we are home (and awake), we ensure there are little to no accidents at all (sometimes he sneaks a pee in while he's playing with one of the other animals!) I try and come home at lunch some days, but can't do it everyday since the drive round trip takes up the entire hour. Checking on switching my hours to 7-4 in the future, to avoid the crap traffic and the amount of time I'm not home. We're just trying to do what works best for us, even if its not what works best for someone else, or someone else's idea of perfect.

We tried leaving him in a room during the day, and he chewed the moldings around the door and barked and whined for hours. We tried leaving him IN a crate (not the XL one, a smaller one per the advice on starting small) but he'd manage to poop on himself overnight & during the day, even with taking his food/water away at 7pm, out at ~11pm, then fed at ~6:30am, out one more time just before 7:30am. So far the current set up seems to be working for him to give him some freedom, and I hope it doesn't totally ruin housetraining, though he has greatly improved on it. Since he's only 3 months old, I know I cant expect perfection from him anyway  

We are hoping for the same thing for Ruger as you are with your future pup - we want him to be able to have free reign as soon as he can be trusted in the house all day, and sleep at the foot of our bed (as well as Schutzhund training when he is ready for that step). He'll also be starting obedience and off leash training in a couple weeks, which we intend to go through the puppy, basic, and advanced levels with him. 

I look forward to pictures of your pup when you get it, even if it is a year away  Your planned explorations look like a ton of fun! That last picture you posted, with the pup wrapped up on the guy's back, I believe I've seen it before in an article about a rescue mission to save pictured dog!


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'll always miss PB & MB too. It was a fantastic fun place to grow up (and educational too in the 70's lol). Thank goodness for the live cams they have set up on the boardwalk and down by the OB pier. Whenever I get really homesick (like now -February in Coeur d Alene) I just check out the waves for a while on the cam. We moved from PB to Tahoe so it was quite the change.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Stonevintage said:


> I'll always miss PB & MB too. It was a fantastic fun place to grow up (and educational too in the 70's lol). Thank goodness for the live cams they have set up on the boardwalk and down by the OB pier. Whenever I get really homesick (like now -February in Coeur d Alene) I just check out the waves for a while on the cam. We moved from PB to Tahoe so it was quite the change.



I lived in PB after college and am now in Tahoe. Does that mean my next stop is Idaho?!?

While I loved PB, the noise in the middle of the night got to me when I had to be up for work the next morning.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Persinette said:


> I really, really appreciate that. And oh you bet! Have you seen some of the amazing photos those kayakers and backpackers get! I'm going to get a Go Pro camera to record our adventures. They even have a dog harness attachment!
> 
> I'm training for stuff like this. I need a hardy, obedient dog to take on these kinds of excursions and treks:
> 
> ...


OT, picture looks familiar, I think this is the story associated with the GSD in the backpack picture.
The Story of Missy, a Dog Left to Die on the Mountain | Adventure Companion | OutsideOnline.com


----------



## zx5go (Jan 7, 2015)

Ruger Monster and Persinette, my wife and I will be getting our next GSD puppy soon and we'll be dealing with the same issues. My wife is a teacher so we will have the summer but we'll have a couple of months with him before her summer break. I believe by the end of the summer we could have a pup ready to hold it while we're gone. Ruger, based on your comment I'm going to inquire with my director on taking 1.5 hours for lunch some days because I'm about 40 minutes one way from home. Once we're past the potty training he'll have the run of the house (assuming we can curb the chewing but we've been able to get around that in the past).


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

mspiker03 said:


> I lived in PB after college and am now in Tahoe. Does that mean my next stop is Idaho?!?
> 
> While I loved PB, the noise in the middle of the night got to me when I had to be up for work the next morning.


Ha! Maybe, Coeur d Alene is similar to Tahoe, this lake only has a little over 100 miles of shoreline though. But, if your wandering the same path I did, you would have to spend a couple of years in Texas first (and I wouldn't recommend that at all).

I also miss Tahoe . Had some fun there too. Lived on the Cali side a couple of miles North of the Y. Worked at Heavenly, Harrah's, and Jim McKinney Real Estate. Crazy fun at the casinos on New Years Eve. Dollar night skiing at Kirkwood.


----------



## supergsd (Feb 18, 2015)

WOW!! that's one crazy expensive project just to teach a pup not to potty in the house.

I am picking up my 8 week pup this Saturday and I plan on crate training her from day one, I have always crate trained my dogs. 

I took a week vacation to bond and work on house training. Then when I go back to work I have hired a pet sitter to come in about mid day to let the pup out and play for 45mins. Then 3-4 hours later I will be home. Cost me 100 for a week.

For the cost of your set up you could pay a pet sitter to come in for 2 months!?!  

I do agree with no water after a certain time and potty before going into the crate. Just my 2 cents


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

supergsd said:


> WOW!! that's one crazy expensive project just to teach a pup not to potty in the house.
> 
> I am picking up my 8 week pup this Saturday and I plan on crate training her from day one, I have always crate trained my dogs.
> 
> ...


For me it's not an issue of the cost so much. The issue I have with hiring a pet sitter is 1) I don't trust strangers to have access to my home and 2) I have very specific training/interactions in mind for my pup since I want to do Schutzhund and I have a clear idea of how I want to socialize and do certain aspects of training consistently, and don't trust a dog walker not to mess up my dog by letting him have improper interactions with other dogs on leash or correcting him inappropriately. I'm sort of a control freak XD I think it has to do with my OCD tendencies.

I do like the idea of limiting water. If the potty training is solid by 5 months then hopefully instead of being crated, the indoor kennel set up can act as a confined play area until he is behaved enough to have full run of the house. :laugh:


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I work full time and have with all of my dogs. To be honest I'd rather just have to clean up the rare mess in a crate, pen, or room than have to spend time training a dog to potty indoors on some special thing that will cost money and cost me time and mess having to constantly clean. When I have a young dog not trustworthy out of a crate yet, I have bedding in the crate so if they make a mess they aren't plashing or sliding around, they kind of shove a wet towel off to the side. When I got Nikon, I paid a college student about $25/week (hardly anything) to come over, let him out to potty, and play with him for about 20 minutes. I think I did that for 2 months and after that, he was fine. I did the same for Legend but only for 3 weeks since I got him before Christmas and we already had some time off. I don't feed my dogs in the morning and make sure they aren't gulping water or snow. I've never restricted water before bed and my last pup was sleeping through the night out of the crate by 5 months.


----------

