# gsd's agressive



## tyler (Dec 2, 2008)

i have heard tons of stories where german shepherds are shown as incredibly agressive. why does everyone think they are such an agressve breed? i have a couple friends with german shepherds and none of them are agressive. why do they have this terrible name tag?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

irresponsible owners and bad breeding.


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## butch33611 (May 4, 2007)

People watch too much TV.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Culture. 

Around here GSDs are considered good guardians, but not aggressive. The kind of dog you don't want to mess with, but not the one who will bite you out of the blue. I've never seen anyone cross the street because of my dog or any other GSD I've worked with. I don't know if the people only have a different perception or GSDs are in general more stable here than in USA.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Because it is human nature to remember and talk about odd or bad experiences moreso than good ones. So the few cases of bad dogs get a lot more press than the far more numerous cases of good dogs. A GSD being a good pet isn't newsworthy, one biting someone is. So this can easily skew one's perspective if all you know about the breed is those stories that make headlines. And indeed, that is all many people know about the breed.

This breed also sufferes from many man made problems. Over breeding and bad breeding due to popularity. Many owners do not have the time, energy or willigness to properly train and socialize the dog. Often dogs are raised or live in situations (such as being tied up outside all the time) that can cause aggression and other mental and behavioral problems. And sadly, some people who get GSDs (and Rotts, and Dobes, and Pits and other such breeds) WANT them to be mean, scary, vicious dogs so they do their best to turn them into that.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I disagree. By sheer *overwhelming* numbers, there are far MORE aggressive, untrustworthy GSDs than there are good ones. Why?

1. Puppy mills and casual backyard breeders cranking out litter after litter from parents without health screenings, temperament tests of any sort. The insane VOLUME of puppies produced without thought to stability of nerves and temperament ensures a glut of nervous, barky, nipping, cowering, and biting fear-aggressive and unstable GSDs. <span style="color: #3333FF">Popularity has done this breed no favors.</span>

2. John Q. Public wants a trendy "working dog facsimile" who's somehow also a mellow, easy couchspud that he doesn't have to work too hard to socialize. So, he gets a dog with "The Look" of a workingdog, but hasn't the time nor inclination to socialize extensively, train, work with the dog's both mental and physical needs.

Bad/unstable nerves from poor breeding, itchy semi-latent working drives, paired with a "just wants to watch ESPN" kinda owner, and we too often get a recipe for..... aggression.

Well-bred GSDs are stable, with reliable minds (no matter how active they are). Responsible owners see every GSD as an involved socialization and training project-- for life. Even the easy ones. 

_These dogs simply take WAY more involvement than many wish to give._ Plus, it's easier for John Q. Public to drive by with the kids one Saturday afternoon and pick a puppy from an ad in the newspaper for $300, than it is to _very wisely _agonize on a long waitinglist for a reputable breeder who does all the screenings for temperament and health.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI disagree. By sheer *overwhelming* numbers, there are far MORE aggressive, untrustworthy GSDs than there are good ones.


While I agree with many of Patti's points, I *strongly* disagree with this.

If we were talking about appropriate temperament for the breed as a whole, of which being dangerous is just one of many temperament problems, than I would agree there are more bad ones than good ones.

But focusing specifically on dogs that are dangerously aggressive, as is the point of this thread, I do NOT agree that there are more dangerous, aggressive GSDs than there are good ones. If anything, there are more soft, whimpy "hide under the bed" types than any other. And many, many more of those than there are GSDs running rampant eating children.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Other cause is the the tan with black sadle marking is inmediately linked to GSD, no matter of back in the genealogy of the dog a GSD took part. O too often see mutts labeled as GSDs because of the marking, when the last GSD ancestor of that mutt was 5 generations back.


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## chuckstar158 (Sep 8, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild And many, many more of those than there are GSDs running rampant eating children.


While I know this is a serious question and discussion... this made me laugh out loud!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:If anything, there are more soft, whimpy "hide under the bed" types than any other. And many, many more of those than there are GSDs running rampant eating children.


Chris, how many of these are potentially fear biters? From what I've seen, one of the biggest temperament problems in the breed is fear biting. Compounding the problem, owners of these dogs too often believe they have an outstanding guard dog who's simply very protective of them.



> Quote:Responsible owners see every GSD as an involved socialization and training project-- for life. Even the easy ones.


 So very, very true! Fortunately it's also a lifetime of pleasure.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> 
> 
> > Quote:If anything, there are more soft, whimpy "hide under the bed" types than any other. And many, many more of those than there are GSDs running rampant eating children.
> ...



Quite a few. IMO the reality of just how dangerous a fear aggressive dog is depends largely on what is the dog's preferred choice, fight or flight. A dog who is too easily threatened and chooses fight as his first choice is dangerous. A dog who is too easily threatened and chooses flight as his first choice, is much less so. Leave him cowering under the bed, and he's not going to hurt anyone. Both are fear aggressive and can be dangerous because of it, but one is much easier to manage than the other, much less likely to be encouraged because the owner mistakenly thinks the dog is protective, and thus much less likely to cause harm to anyone.

Fear aggression from weak nerves is definitely a problem in the breed, and in a large number of dogs of all breeds. I agree with that. But I still don't think there are MORE dangerous GSDs running around than there are non-dangerous GSDs, which is the statement Patti made that I disagree with. There are plenty of weak nerved GSDs, who under certain circumstances could be dangerous. But there are even more soft, timid GSDs who would greatly prefer flight and would really have to be pushed hard to get them to fight, and they would not be particularly dangerous under most normal circumstances. And I still don't think the fear aggressive GSDs outnumber the non fear aggressive GSDs. That is the point I was arguing.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Good points on this thread. Then you also have people who don't socialize enough or take training and leadership seriously enough, add in parents who don't teach their kids about dogs and our wonderfully litigious ways and you have a recipe for disaster. Not to mention most dog owners live in the cities and suburbia where dogs that are uncomfortable with always seeing people are forced into those situations on a daily basis. Many of these dogs with less-than-stellar temperament would probably do just fine on big properties but when forced to deal with the world on a daily basis, things can happen, especially if an owner simply isn't dog-savvy enough to work towards resolving problems or at least managing issues.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think that Diana's post speaks for more than just the GSD breed. Even a chi-chi has issues due to the above description of ownership.
I am volunteering for the spca, and the shelter dogs(who are treated very well by wonderful, loving staff who knows dog psyche) are the sweetest things...when they get adopted the personality probably goes thru a change due to lack of leadership and knowledge of training in the new owners.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Diana, I love some of the big, serious flock guards, such as Akbash & Anatolians, but one reason I don't consider getting one is that they can become increasingly territorial & aggressive in a crowded urban setting, such as my own. 

Chris, thanks for the clarification. I think you're probably right that safe GSDs outnumber dangerous ones, though there are depressingly waaaay too many with problematic temperaments. 

Fight or flight seems to be partly breed as well as individual. The vast majority of fearful IWs will flee rather than fight/snap. As big as they are, they're very effective at this b/c they'll bolt right through whatever obstacles there are. 

Question...IF a weak nerved, wildly fearful owner happens to get a GSD with a solid temperament who is definitely protective, but appropriately so, will that dog tend to act on its owner's fears & aggress at, even bite, innocent people or will it clue to the owners irrational perception of global threats everywhere & ignore the vibes emanting from the human nerve bag? This assumes the dog is not trained in protection & the owner doesn't issue any attack/get 'em commands. There are no absolute answers to such conjecture. I'm simply interested in your opinions & reasoning.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that our breed is so popular that if only 1/1000 of the population ever bites ANYONE, the breed will be perceived as dangerous and aggressive. 

Looking at the AKC Gazzette, only labs outnumber us regularly. Generally there are more than a thousand litters registered every month. Figure seven thousand dogs born each month that are registerable. There are many more that are born without papers. 

Then, you take into account that King Shepherds, Shilo shepherds, Belgium Shepherds, Dutch Shepherds, Belgium Teve... and Belgium Malinois are often mistaken for GSDs. Also, many mixtures of dogs if there is a hint of shepherd in there, they often attribute the bite to the shepherd. 

I would say, far and wide there are tons of GSDs out there that have not and never will bite anyone. Some of these have great nerve. Others are less solid but still ok. The fraction that bite, generally bite out of fear, though some do bite out of training, and others bite in the midst of dog fights.

So out of all the bites, there are unprovoked bites, accidental bites, bites in the line of duty, and provoked bites. In Ohio, your dog cannot be designated dangerous if he bites while being teased, at least that is how the law used to read. But how many bites happen because people bait the dog? But in statistics, all of these bites get lumped together and it is all the insurance companies and lawmakers want to hear. 

I guess my point is that if every dog bite was weighted by population, then Akitas and Chows and many other breeds would have a far worse reputation than ours. Because we are so popular, everyone knows someone that has been bitten by a GSD. 

Another thing is the perception of what a "bite" is. My sister thinks that Whitney bit her when she offered her a piece of steak and the teeth closed on the fingers. While it hurt it did not break the skin, and there was NO aggression in the incident. Other people think they have been bitten when a dog simply snapped or lunged at them. While snapping and lunging is not what we want to see our dogs doing, it is generally done because the dog DOES NOT WANT TO BITE. 

Lastly, the perception of German Shepherds is against them. People are often fearful of GSDs because they are GSDs. While socializing Amber at PetsMart, at seventeen weeks old, we turned the corner where the rodents are and a young girl, maybe 12 was sitting on the floor where I could not see her. Amber turned the corner and the girl literally screeched, jumped up and fled. GREAT socialization moment!!! But dogs can perceive fear and it will make them wary. People's reactions to the dog may inspire a reaction from the dog. 

So our breed is a victim of popularity, mistaken identity, undeserved bad repuation, and violent record keeping (misdemeaners often weighted as felonies). 

So we have to be that much more dedicated to guarding our dogs and our breed. This is why I have little to no patience for people who allow their dogs to roam, and sometimes it is hard to be understanding when people tell of a series of events up to and including a bite, where every step of the way the dog was displaying a need for training, leadership, and boundaries.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I am a big GSD fan, do rescue, and would also have German Shpepherds in my home.

However, at least with the GS European working line dog, I disagree. These dogs become so loyal and protective toward family and friends, some tend to think there number 1 job is protective, of friends, famly and property.

The Mals are worse, and harder to control. But my friends and family have pit bulls and chows. 

I love the German Sheherds, for tons of reasons and will always serve as a rescue for the high kill guys from the shelters, but when it comes to family and friends, the Sheherd is more likely to respond then a Chow or Pit Bull to strangers.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: tylerg95 why does everyone think they are such an agressve breed? i


because people mistake protection for aggression.









and also bad breeding and bad ownership


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> because people mistake protection for aggression.


IMO, the opposite is far more often true. People mistake fear based aggression for protection.


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## billthedogguy (Dec 3, 2008)

Every dog can be aggressive. But it is interesting you rarely see aggressive puppies. It's the humans that cause this problem. Yes there is a chance the dog has a genectic flaw, but that is rare.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2
> ...


I have to agree there. In many cases, if a dog has to put on a big snarling and lunging and growling and toothy show, it's doing it as a bluff- scare off the threat before the threat gets too close.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:The Mals are worse, and harder to control.










You must not have been around good mals (or good mal owners).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Bill The Dog GuyEvery dog can be aggressive. But it is interesting you rarely see aggressive puppies. It's the humans that cause this problem. Yes there is a chance the dog has a genectic flaw, but that is rare.


Puppies are not aggressive because they do not have the mental maturity to be aggressive. A fearful puppy will run, because that is what nature has programed him to do. Aggression doesn't become an option until the dog's defense drive develops later in life.

I agree, there are far more people problems than dog problems. Normally what would be considered a dangerous dog is a result of genetic weakness plus poor environment and upbringing. So a combination of nature and nurture. But genetic temperament flaws are quite common, and far from rare.


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## IowaShepherdOwner (Oct 20, 2008)

I am a new GSD owner but we have a 5 year old mini dachshund. We made the mistake of not properly socializing the little guy when he was a pup. He was also tormented by the little neighbor boy when he was outside and as a result is not friendly and hates little boys to the point that he will become aggressive when he sees one. On the other hand we let our GSD see every make and model of people, young and old when she was a pup. As a result at 8 months of age she is very friendly to all people. She is friendly to other dogs also, with an exception, two neighborhood dogs got loose and started running at us. She put herself between the two dogs and myself and become aggressive in her stance and bark (two things I had never seen before) From that point on, I had a new found respect for her ability to understand different situations.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Diana,

only 5 in competitive events, and they are great when it comes to perfomance. However, 2 of the 5 have to be caged before they go on stage, and one bit a kid at a national event. I have probably been to forty or so competitions, but even Pit Bulls, Rottweilers and German Shepherds participate. There has never been a problem with any breed, except the Mals.

My only thought is if someone decides to get a Mal, they have to be darn good with dogs.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiI've never seen anyone cross the street because of my dog or any other GSD I've worked with. I don't know if the people only have a different perception or GSDs are in general more stable here than in USA.


I get that all the time. People see us walking towards them from a block away and suddenly the other side of the street looks better to them. If they have a dog w/them I'm glad, but if they're alone I wish they'd just continue walking towards us so that I could practice meet & greets and having mine give space to others, etc.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Quote:From what I've seen, one of the biggest temperament problems in the breed is fear biting. Compounding the problem, owners of these dogs too often believe they have an outstanding guard dog who's simply very protective of them.


How does one tell the difference between the two? Is there an obvious way to know which is which?


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