# Andy Maly Vah Prodegy



## Renofan2

Looking to see how the Andy Maly Vah prodegy are doing in sport (schutzhund, agility, akc obedienct, PSA, etc). I have a 2 year old female out of Andy - Andi Bojovnik "Brenna". This is a recent video of protection. If you have an Andy offspring, could you share either by posting video, commenting or sending to me? Would love to see how others are progressing, titling, etc.

Cheryl


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## onyx'girl

My favorite subject! Andy :wub:

From the G Wildhaus litter most all of Andy x Della progeny are into agility, competitive obedience, herding and doing very, very well! Temperamentally they are very balanced(the litter is pretty consistent in the temperament and looks, though somehow Karlo is up by about 20# than the rest of his sibs)
My boy Karlo(Gideon v Wildhaus)is doing IPO and last fall we got the BH out of the way.... hope to do an IPO 1 & 2 along with some SDA(FO, P1 and tracking) trialing this year. 
Karlo is slow to mature, and has yet to fill out. Higher threshold for the most part and not reactive to other dogs or people. 
But when we go onto the protection field, he is "on" immediately, deep bark and not in prey. 
He carried a bit of suspicion last year, but that has waned some with his maturing.

His H&B is genetic/strong and his fight drive is of more value than his prey drive. 
He would rather 'man' track than do the SchH style footstep nose to the ground. He is not tunnel visioned on the track but aware of his surroundings. Motivation to find articles isn't a big deal, yet he has strong food drive. He loves to track and popping a ball at the end isn't a big enough reward either, he wants to continue tracking. I'm puzzled by him, because he enjoys tracking, but I think in his brain, finding articles are just silly/waste of time, so we work on motivating him. I've done food jackpots, no jackpot, toy, etc. 

I don't have any recent video of his protection but he has a calm deep bite and the sleeve only holds value if he really has to work to get it(blind search exercises have been a challenge). 

Looks like Brenna is not a sleeve focused girl either! She looks like Karlo and his siblings 

We've worked on a suit a couple few times, and Karlo loves it. We continue to train w/ suit and sleeve, but focus on the control work with both!
Obedience isn't naturally flashy but I can bring it out with a bit of effort. Retrieves are great now, I use the 3 dumbbell for flat retrieves and he gives me great effort and enthusiasm. 
Karlo loves to jump and do the A-frame(agility is natural....very graceful even at his 27" and 90#) I don't have a good agility training venue locally or we'd do it in the winter months.

I think with a different handler that didn't bop around from group to group, Karlo would have progressed more! But he goes with the flow and strange training venues don't bother him in the least....he is comfortable/settles in where ever we go to train. 
Hopefully MRL will chime in with Glory's story and Lucia will beam about Gryffie! Not many other G people are on here, but we all keep in contact thru a Wildhaus puplist yahoo group.
Here is a pic I took today, his 3 yr anniversary of coming home!








We are a month ahead with the spring growth, look at the difference in the ferns.









His first day home...owning the place:


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## GsdLoverr729

Oh my holy crabapples of cuteness!!! Adorable pup grew into a hunkalicious dog :wub:


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## Renofan2

Jane, thank you for the update! Karlo looks so much like Andy. I got to see him last weekend. He is doing well for an old guy! Brenna also was slow to mature. Bark in defense first. Worked hard in transitionimg her between defense and prey the past 3 months. Also loves the jumps. Have incorporated them into heeling to boost her drive in obediene. Heeling is taking a while as she isn't interested in a tug or ball from me. She is a good tracker, but is suspicious so can become distracted. She has great food drive so using food instead of ball/tug in training. Hoping to trial in the fall but have alot more work to do.

Hoping others post as well as very interested in what all the pups have been doing and have accomplished.

Cheryl


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## GsdLoverr729

Ugh it cut off the rest of my thing -_- Anyway... Love the video! Andy looks great


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## onyx'girl

I love when Melanie puts up vids or pics of Andy on fb...brings tears to my eyes though, I sure would love to meet him. You are so lucky that you know him! 
Interesting reading the resemblances in Brenna's obedience tracking and personality. I've recently started going to Bridget Carlsen seminars/methods to build that enthusiasm and motivation for obedience. 
How are Brenna's siblings faring? 

Another dog that is from Andy~ Lucas Maly Medved's owner is on the board, but doesn't post often....not sure he is doing sport-work however. Maybe Karen will see this thread and post an update, Lucas is a handsome guy too!


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## Renofan2

LOL, Jane. I bred Lucas. He was a cross of Andy and a west german showline I co-owned from the same kennel as my long coat Molly. I know Karen well. She tracked with us this morning. She has taken a few months off of training. Lucas was also slow to mature. No interest in tug until after 2. She worked him a bit last year and he had nice drives, full calm grip. Hoping she come back to training him soon! 

C


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## onyx'girl

I didn't know that you were the breeder! I knew he was a SL cross and wondered about that breeding and how it came about. How many were in the litter? You didn't keep a pup??


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## Renofan2

There were only 4 in the litter. 1 girl and 3 boys. I was training and working Molly (Felice vom Amulree) at the time and my mother was very ill so decided not to keep one. If I would have known Molly had severe hd back the, I would have! The others are in pet homes, so no chance to see if they could work. 

Am very interested in seeing if any of the Andy pups have titled yet.


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## Castlemaid

I got Gryffon for Schutzhund, and that is what we have been working towards. 

He is a natural for bitework with crushing grips: (just today, we were breaking in a new sleeve, and it looked like an old sleeve after a few bites from him). 
This is an older pic:









Gryffon's default working drive is prey drive. Though his barking is also a gorgeous deep, powerful bark. When pushed and pressured, he switches to defense, which is very serious. He is high threshold, and would benefit from some suspicion work. 

When working obedience for a toy reward, he gets locked in prey, slowing down his sits and downs. He will work for food, but he is not food motivated enough to sustain his interest for more than five or ten minutes of work, and with food, his obedience gets flat, so a bit of a juggling act to keep him animated and interested without locking. 

He can be equipment focused sometimes, but that is getting better. I've tried him on a bite suit once, and he did the transition smoothly and bit the decoy on the arm and on the tricep without hesitation the first time, which impressed the trainer at the seminar we were at. A WUSV level trainer we had at our club for a seminar had nothing but good things to say about Gryff, and joked about taking him home with him (he was, at the time, actively searching for his next competition dog). 

Gryffon did his BH at 15 months, no issues:









I just started bicycling with him with the aim of doing an AD. After only three bike rides, I can take his leash off, and he keeps pace with the bike, holding position perfectly, ignoring distractions, looking to me for praise. If I stop to give him a break, he won't move away until I get off my bike. We did a 40 minute bike ride yesterday, on dirt roads, in the rain. Today we spent the morning tracking and training, then we went for another bike ride - 8 kilometers, pushing for speed and full out running for a good two kilometers of that 8 kilometer distance (we did 4 kms, took a break - he was looking for sticks to get me engaged in play - then on the return leg did half of it at a run). Got home, and he was begging to go out and play fetch. Paws are fine too, no bleeding even though he was running on pavement for half the ride. 

For something different, we entered a Rally-O trial and we earned our first leg with a perfect 200 pt score, earning first place for Novice B, and High In Trial for Novice B. I only did about three practice sessions with him and entered one fun match prior to us trialing. 









But training and preparing for trials is but a small part of having Gryffon, the biggest part of having him, is just enjoying him, and having fun adventures. 










A recent pic, from just a couple of days ago:


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## Renofan2

Thanks Lucia. Gryffon sure is handsome! Sounds like he has grips like his Sire. I have to smile about your Rally story as Melanie enterred Andy in a Rally advanced trial and had not specifically trained for it. I showed her a few minutes before she went in how to do the front from heel position. He also took 1rst place and did the front perfectly after being shown just once.

Cheryl


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## MaggieRoseLee

From yesterday, agility video with 2 run starring Ms. Glory B Wildhaus. From the 'G' litter. She really is starting to put it together and do extremely well in agility. Smart as a whip and generally loving life! Just yesterday at the trial had quite a few people tell me how they love MY German Shepherds (rather then the OTHER GSD's they see out and about in the world) so I get to pass the Wildhaus name around.





 
I love GloryB to death, but she is much softer to train then Bretta ever was, also matured about a year (not kidding) behind Bretta. So not sure if Bretta was an early bloomer or GloryB a late one  . She's really coming into her own this year, at the age of three!

Always friendly and loving to people and other dogs. No problem taking her anywhere. She was the one that put of up with 2 days of constant loving in NYC with the Meet the Breeds thing. We met up with her full sister Ada, and had no trouble sharing a hotel room for the night even though the dogs hadn't seen each other since they were about 9 weeks old.

Here's both Ada and Glory...


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## Heidifarm

I have Lucas, (mentioned earlier) who is an Andy pup (well, hardly a pup anymore - he'll be 4 in August!) He is a mix of showlines and working lines. He was a very quiet puppy, not real interested in tugging or toys at all, he's an awesome pet, but did not seem like any kind of protection work would be his "thing".

But then, last summer I brought him out to SchH training right around his 3rd birthday. He came on the field and was like a different dog! He was confident with full, powerful grips, his first time on a sleeve our helper just looked at me and smiled .

We got through some foundation work through the fall, but then I had to take a break due to the time commitments. Here’s a picture from last fall. I love my Andy pup:wub:


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## cliffson1

I bred to Andy also.....lol, I still feel he is the most impressive dog I have seen in the past 15 years. Better pet dog than the people who breed for pets have, better working dog than most dogs bred for working, great with children, also therapy dog, did I say he produces progeny that are capable of pet, fun, work, or sport. When you have owned a German Shepherd of his caliber, that produces like him, then you begin to understand what this breed is supposed to be. Below is another son of Andy.....he is in a pet home with family and kids, in rural part of South Jersey. Very social dog to friends and relatives, very discriminating to strangers. Excellent protector of the kids.....just what he is supposed to be.


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## cliffson1

Here is another son of Andy, owner by a news producer for Channel 6 in Phila, Pa. She started training him about a year ago and has made amasing progress. I also know of another son of his that is with a NJ police dept. These pups were all (9) very social and excellent nerves, fit very well into families. All they working stock....yep!!!, will they fit into normal home without problems ....yep!, is this what we should strive for....yep....lol


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## Renofan2

Thank you everyone! I enjoy all your posts! Cliff, I couldn't agree more. From the first time I met Andy years ago, I could sense he was something special! I am enjoying training his daughter alot! 
Cheryl


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## Teagans Pop

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16965&stc=1&d=1335797603
Hi to all, I'm Bill and new to the forum. I have "Teagan" Giselle Vom Wildhaus from the G litter. Training's been tough on her because I'm not very smart and don't always understand what she wants me to do but, even with me as a handicap, she's managed to get her AX and AXJ agility excellent titles, her TD tracking title, her TC Temperament Certification at the GSD nationals last fall and if she gets her 3rd leg this weekend will have her CD and her VCD1 versatility title. We haven't done any schutzhund work but T has a lot of drive, is somewhat food motivated but would rather work for her tug or tennis ball. Like Jane and Karlo, we had some motivational issues in tracking for a while but solved it by hiding tennis balls in the gloves out on the track legs and playing fetch for a bit before moving on to the next one. We've been using the tug under my arm in obedience and that has really helped her focus. I don't know if her pic uploaded or not but she's 67 lbs, 26" tall and sable colored like Andy.
The last 6 months have brought lots of changes in maturity, drive and focus. Hats off to Andy and Della... proof that good genes can offset a bad handler. Like Jane, Lucia, and Jenn, I love my "Wildhaus" pup!


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## ArtistInNature

I have "Bria" Gilliath v Wildhaus, also from the G litter. Bria is:
- very smart and very aware
- much softer than my other GSDs
- late to mature and develop confidence
- crazy about her tugs, frisbee, and sticks
- a natural the first time she saw a bite sleeve
- somewhat aloof around other people, unless they tug with her - then she'll engage with them
- generally social and trustworthy around other dogs, though she and my 8 year old female have begun fighting (both are spayed); the 8 year old has been a busybody bully to Bria forever.
- really, really wanting to be right. She hates making a mistake, and last season in agility competition if she knocked a bar she would immediately slow down and show other stress signals.

This year, at age 3, she is coming into her own, maturing and developing confidence. She finished her Excellent agility titles in just a few trials and is already working on her Masters and MACH titles. She is now very consistent in the agility competition ring; I'd just like to see her speed up and run as fast at a trial as she does in training.

Here she is a few weeks ago, earning her first MACH points with her first run in Excellent B Standard:





Julie Chapman - An Artist in Nature- and
Suka (Suka v. Sapphire Mountain CDX RE MX MXJ MXF NAP NJP BH)
Colter (Gryphon v. Adler Stein)
Bria (Gilliath v. Wildhaus, AX AXJ NF)


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## cliffson1

I think Bria did an awesome job....rather have a slower perfect dog than a fast miss something dog. You can tell she is very biddable and a great dog.


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## wildo

onyx'girl said:


> Karlo is slow to mature, and has yet to fill out.





Renofan2 said:


> Brenna also was slow to mature.





Renofan2 said:


> Lucas was also slow to mature.





MaggieRoseLee said:


> I love GloryB to death, but she is much softer to train then Bretta ever was, also matured about a year (not kidding) behind Bretta. So not sure if Bretta was an early bloomer or GloryB a late one





ArtistInNature said:


> I have "Bria" Gilliath v Wildhaus,
> - late to mature and develop confidence


So this is pretty interesting to me. What does it mean for the dog to mature slowly, and is that a good thing? Seems like lots of these progeny were "slow to mature."


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## Chris Wild

Slow maturity is actually a very common trait in many of the eastern (Czech, DDR, etc.. lines). I don't consider it good or bad, just different and something that needs to be taken into consideration, particularly with regard to training and competition.


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## wildo

Thanks for the explanation Chris!


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## Liesje

There's the physical and mental/temperament aspect. In contrast my dog Nikon was quick to mature as far as drive/temperament (he has only changed marginally from about 8 months until now almost 4 years old, he works, trains, and acts very much the same way he always has) but slow to mature physically (his physique has changed in the past six months). Pan my working line has been slower to mature as far as drives and temperament. He was a "sleeper" puppy, very mellow, confident, yet not really into "prey drive" stuff like flirt pole or tugging. His prey drive almost awakened overnight. At 20 months now he still often acts like a 6 month old. In training we always have to remind ourselves he's not even two years yet, because he is not that small (only 68lbs but taller/longer than Nikon) all of us even my experienced training friends/helpers need to make sure we aren't asking too much too soon especially with things like fight drive and defense drive.


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## ArtistInNature

cliffson1 said:


> I think Bria did an awesome job....rather have a slower perfect dog than a fast miss something dog. You can tell she is very biddable and a great dog.


She is indeed very biddable and tuned into her handler (me). My 8 year old girl is the "fast miss something" type - she's currently running at about 6 yards/sec and is insanely fast and drivey on course. I have to say I really like that - it's a head rush! and we go clean pretty often. I'm a much better handler because my first dog was so fast...and I'd like a little more of that head rush with Bria. My friends are sure she'll get there, since she's been speeding up and getting more confident with every trial.

Julie and Suka, Colter, Bria


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## MaggieRoseLee

It looks to me from the video that Bria and GloryB run very similiar. I think Glory will continue to speed up but the interesting thing is their size vs. strides between the jumps. 

Be interesting to compare the number of strides between most jumps your 8 yr old blazing fast GSD takes compared to Bria. I've found both Glory and Bretta put in 3 strides (or more) though when they are blazing fast on a straight line it's only 2.


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## ArtistInNature

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Be interesting to compare the number of strides between most jumps your 8 yr old blazing fast GSD takes compared to Bria. I've found both Glory and Bretta put in 3 strides (or more) though when they are blazing fast on a straight line it's only 2.


Jenn, your question made me curious. I happened to have videos of the 2 of them on the same course from last August. I looked at the opening sequence (easiest to see and count strides), and both had the same number of strides between the first 3 obstacles. Bria's strides are longer - she's 26", and Suka is 24" - but Suka's going flat out. Suka lands on the teeter (3rd obstacle) after 2 seconds, Bria lands on it after 3 seconds. They continue to have the same number of strides throughout the course, though in one or two places Bria actually has a stride less than Suka.

Suka did this STD course in 42 seconds, Bria in 57. I love Bria's consistency, but I'm addicted to Suka's speed.  Bria's weaves: about 5 seconds; Suka, 3 seconds.


Julie Chapman - An Artist in Nature- and
Suka (Suka v. Sapphire Mountain CDX RE MX2 MXJ2 MXF NAP NJP BH)
Colter (Gryphon v. Adler Stein)
Bria (Gilliath v. Wildhaus AX AXJ NF)


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## onyx'girl

I want to add something about the G Wildhaus litter. They are who they are because of Andy and Della and the way they were raised for their first 8 weeks of life! What a great breeding match Chris and Tim made 
And then matching each pup to the right owner....we were/are very blessed!


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## Joanne

I also am one of the blessed, sharing our home with Galena vom Wildhaus of the awesome 'G' litter. Galena is better known as Ada and is another wonderful representative of the Della/Andy breeding done by Chris & Tim Wild. I had never done tracking with any of my previous GSD's and Ada is a natural, passing her AKC tracking certification test on the first try and earning her TD title just 11 days later. She is ready to test for TDX but her handler (me) had a little physical set back so that will have to be delayed for now. We are also training in herding and she is really beginning to put together the idea of how to pressure the sheep just by her presence and position. Hopefully, that title will be forthcoming before too long also. We have not done any protection work but hope to try some on an upcoming visit planned to Wildhaus Kennel is June, when we will be picking up another of their wonderful puppies.


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## Renofan2

Hi Joanne. Don't know if you remember but we met a few years ago at the AKC ob trial in NJ. Congratulations on Ada's tracking titles. I would love to try akc tracking with my showline female who has retired from Schutzhund, but it is hard to find trials.

This is a recent video of Brenn'as IPO training. So nice to be past all that foundation work! 



 
Cheryl


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## onyx'girl

She looks great Cheryl!


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## sabledog

Just out of curiosity, what is it about Andy that makes him such a great dog? I've watched videos, and nothing stands out to me. When someone says it's the best dog they've seen in 15 years, I expect to be wowed.

What am I missing?


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## onyx'girl

What does it take to impress you? Personally I think he is what the total GSD represents. His consistency thruout his life in work ethic and temperament is very impressive to me.
Andy's Website
Andy Maly Vah PSA1, SchH3, IPO3, PDK-9 (Ret.), CDX, RN, TC, TDI/CGC
and this video taken not that long ago, shows him in his twilight years still loving to work:


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## holland

I have not watched the videos--if you are all happy with your dogs out of him great--I am sure that there are other stud dogs out there that are impressive too and never get talked about much--Is it important to you that we are impressed by him--I thought the post was funny


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## sabledog

What makes him the total GSD to you?

Andy SchH 10-30-07 - YouTube

Look at the 2 minute mark, Andy sniffs the ground. A serious dog would not be sniffing the ground, IMO.

And look at his grips. On the prey bites, he bites full. On the re-attacks he bites half. Again, a serious dog would come in full and hard, even on a re-attack.


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## carmspack

Andy Maly Vah represents a GSD in ideal balance. Strong in body, strong in character , strong in drives and instincts strong nerves , strong health and able to work seriously, (he was a working police dog), compete in sport and be an affectionate , sane, stable, loving pet and so with all this an ambassador of the breed.

Cliff , those are some impressive Andy "kids" that you posted. Are both from your breeding to Andy? What would be the female that you used in your breeding.

I did take a female , solid black , owned by Joe Kuhn's old friend , to Andy Carmspack Blackjack Johnson - German Shepherd Dog -- but the timing was off , so no pups.
We still have a stud fee with Andy's owner , I wonder if she has semen saved from him.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## onyx'girl

holland said:


> I have not watched the videos--if you are all happy with your dogs out of him great--I am sure that there are other stud dogs out there that are impressive too and never get talked about much--Is it important to you that we are impressed by him--I thought the post was funny


holland, who are you referring to in your post? 
I don't think anyone has said that there aren't other impressive stud dogs, of course there are(thankfully!)
This thread is about Andy and his progeny.... glad you are amused.


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## holland

Awesome you can spell


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## cliffson1

@ Sabledog.....Andy was the embodiment of what the breed should be. He was not a top conformation dog, he was not a top sport dog....so the specialized things those venues look for he didn't excell at. He was a TOP working dog as Carmen alluded to. He could have been a seeing dog, was a therapy dog, was a police dog, did very well in Sch. I've worked the dog in manwork....he was a serious dog willing to take the fight to the level that the decoy presents....that is ideal to me. You can't see that in IPO. He was a superb work tracker....never giving uptil he found the quarry....again different from sport tracking. He was a baysitter to a five year old little girl. His muzzlework was truly old school and his building search was off the charts. There's so much to a good dog and he was one of them.
@ Carmen....the dam was a Reiko v Hena-C daughter. She was 3,4,5-5 on Held v Ritterberg and 4-5 on Artus. Great nerve but differently civil....old school DDR.
@ Holland.....:wub:
@ Jane......you are right on the money.
ps.....Sabledog.....this dog was definitely serious. I mean real....with or without equipment. When I went to his PSA trial in Baltimore, I asked one of the decoys to assess his work. He came to me after the protection routine in full suit and said, Cliff, this dog will take it wherever it has to go....I like this shepherd.....He was real regardless of what you glean from videos.


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## sabledog

I just don't understand how this dog can be such a great working dog but there are no videos of it. The videos show just another dog, not a bad dog, but not amazing. And I'm not just talking about sport.

Does anyone have any videos of hidden sleeve/civil work?


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> He was real regardless of what you glean from videos.


And that's what is all boils down to Sabledog. Don't believe what your eyes, intellect and experience are telling you. Believe in the magic. Believe the fantasies conjured from the ether. Do this and you too shall believe fantastic things about what some dogs could'a been, should'a been and half way were.


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## onyx'girl

muzzle [email protected] 4:30 pretty cool to watch...
Fast, I'm glad you posted, It makes it all real, who needs magic when reality bites?


> Andy was the embodiment of what the breed should be. He was not a top conformation dog, he *was* not a top sport dog....so the specialized things those venues look for he didn't excell at. He was a TOP working dog as Carmen alluded to. He could have been a seeing dog, was a therapy dog, was a police dog, did very well in Sch. I've worked the dog in manwork....he was a serious dog willing to take the fight to the level that the decoy presents....that is ideal to me. You can't see that in IPO. He was a superb work tracker....never giving uptil he found the quarry....again different from sport tracking. He was a baysitter to a five year old little girl. His muzzlework was truly old school and his building search was off the charts. There's so much to a good dog and he was one of them


Andy is not a *was*, but a still...he is still with us, and Carmen I hope you can still use that stud fee w/ him, AI or live


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## cliffson1

Like i said he wasn't a sport dog.....so I understand some thinking there is magic involved.


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## Fast

onyx'girl said:


> anthology video
> muzzle [email protected] 4:30 pretty cool to watch...
> Fast, I'm glad you posted, It makes it all real, who needs magic when reality bites?
> 
> Andy is not a *was*, but a still...he is still with us, and Carmen I hope you can still use that stud fee w/ him, AI or live


If you took a bunch of highlights from the lives of the most mediocre of people, you could make them look like heroes from a Hollywood blockbuster.

Why not just answer Sabledog's question? What exceptional traits does this dog have? And show some FACTS to back it up.


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## carmspack

boy they are coming out of the wood work.

the magic will be in finding another, producing another like him. 

these dogs go out to work to serve, not to be entertainment for someone. 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## MaggieRoseLee

sabledog said:


> I just don't understand how this dog can be such a great working dog but there are no videos of it. The videos show just another dog, not a bad dog, but not amazing. And I'm not just talking about sport.
> 
> Does anyone have any videos of hidden sleeve/civil work?


sabledog, not sure why you aren't able to look at the videos mentioned. Did you go to Puppies ?





 




 
Not saying there aren't other great dogs out there. Just that most of us like what we saw in Andy and enjoy owning his pups...

:wub:


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## onyx'girl

Fast said:


> If you took a bunch of highlights from the lives of the most mediocre of people, you could make them look like heroes from a Hollywood blockbuster.
> 
> Why not just answer Sabledog's question? What exceptional traits does this dog have? And show some FACTS to back it up.


Fast, I get that you are negative about videos & you are anti ~Andy...repeatedly 
I'm sure you could post examples of a GSD that is something special, or are they all magically video'd to show their assets? 
Sorry this thread is so disappointing to you.
I bet you can find others to be happy with


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> Like i said he wasn't a sport dog.....so I understand some thinking there is magic involved.


Cliff you don't seem to understand the basics. *I don't believe in magic. :crazy:*


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## Fast

onyx'girl said:


> Fast, I get that you are negative about videos & you are anti ~Andy...repeatedly


Repeated anti-Andy? Where is this coming from? I have not said a negative thing about that dog. You should either apologize or find a post of me saying a negative word about this dog. 


And If you and everyone else that owns his progeny are happy with your dogs, I'm over the moon happy for you. It's hard to find a dog that makes you happy. My problem is that a new GSD owner ask a perfectly reasonable question, backed up by video, and was met by BS. She was told that this dogs qualities can't be recorded or verified objectively. Why bring up his schutzhund and PSA titles and then say the scores and sports in general don't matter? Why try to build up the dog and say he could of been a bunch of stuff that he never was? 

This dog might be the greatest dog in the world, I'm not even going to debate that. But if you can't explain or show a newbie why a dog is a good dog, a reasonable person might be lead to believe that you don't know or understand why a dog is good or not. Can't you explain why the dog is sniffing the ground on the back transport or biting shallow on reattacks?


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## Renofan2

Andy was a retired k9, that Melanie trained in sport at age 6 or 7, (cannot remember exactly how old he was). Tracking in police work is much different then running a schutzhund track, so was challenging to retrain, but Andy accomplished it. It is also very difficult to train a dog in schutzhund as well as PSA, but Andy did that too and did so when most sport dogs are retiring. In addition he easily obtained a cdx and rally title in akc. He is an impressive dog to watch work and has proven his versatility, many times over. 

Fast, you don't have to like what you see in videos, but for those of us that know this dog and have had the pleasure of seeing him work, know that he is something special.

I didn't start this thread so that Andy and Melanie's accomplishments could be bashed, but to get an idea on what other's that own Andy prodegy are accomplishing. 

Cheryl


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## Fast

Renofan2 said:


> Fast, you don't have to like what you see in videos, but for those of us that know this dog and have had the pleasure of seeing him work, know that he is something special.
> 
> ......I didn't start this thread so that Andy and Melanie's accomplishments could be bashed


How in the heck do you know what I think about the videos? Please quote what I have said about the videos!!!! I'm especially interested in the part where I bashed the dog's accomplishments. 

This is one of the biggest problems on this board. Too many people see questioning things as attacks. Sorry folks, but not everyone is going to drink the Kool-Aid because some unknown entity on the internets says it taste delicious.


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## onyx'girl

fast, turning the tables a bit...what to you makes Andy so lackluster? And what is it that makes you so adamant that Andy is not who his video's show him to be?
Transparency is a tribute, no?


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## sabledog

I see those videos, but it's not exceptional to me. I've seen even dogs I would consider weak dogs do the same stuff. I want to see what makes him the best dog in the last 15 years. And like Fast said, I'm a newbie. What am I missing?

And the total package to me would to excel at everything. Seeing as he's IPO 3, I expect fuller bites, especially from a dog considered very serious and strong. You don't tell the average C student they are the best student ever. You tell the student with the AP level classes in all subjects and a 4.5 GPA that they are. Does that make sense?

I just want to know what I'm not seeing.


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## onyx'girl

Maybe with fasts knowledge, s/he could tell you what you are not seeing?


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## onyx'girl

> I didn't start this thread so that Andy and Melanie's accomplishments could be bashed, but to get an idea on what other's that own Andy prodegy are accomplishing


I think Melanie should be very proud of where she's taken Andy after his 'retirement'.


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## Fast

onyx'girl said:


> fast, turning the tables a bit...what to you makes Andy so lackluster? And what is it that makes you so adamant that Andy is not who his video's show him to be?
> Transparency is a tribute, no?


I have not voiced an opinion on the dog one way or the other and don't plan to because I don't know anything about the dog other than those videos. And those videos don't show the dog outside of training. 

Any way I love the the set-up. First you try to make me say something negative about the dog, then the flying monkeys call me a basher. HAHAHAHAH! :wild:

Why can't you answer why the dog is sniffing in the back transport and not biting well on the reattacks?


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## sabledog

Not trying to bash at all. Really just an honest question.


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## Chris Wild

Met Andy, saw him work, hung out with him, liked him enough to breed to him. He is indeed a heck of a dog and where he really shines is in his balance and versatility. A dog who could, and did, do it all from real work to sport to companion and pretty much anything anyone wanted to try with him. There truly aren't many dogs like that anymore. Not a "sport" dog, but a good GSD who could do well at sport (and there is often a big difference these days).

As far as the video in question, the one training at night with Jim Hill doing transports and guarding, my first thought is why would anyone even put that video out there for public viewing? I does show a lot of behaviors that people are well within their rights to question. But when taken in context of the training going on, it's pretty clear what is happening and why and I don't think it says anything bad about the dog but rather showcases a less than pretty phase of training.

He's being hammered by both handler and helper for perfect secondary, and being taught a new form of guarding at the same time. Why is he sniffing the ground? Avoidance/displacement behavior for all the pressure they're putting on him and the drive conflict he's in. Why shallow bites? Because he's being hammered for biting, including stick cleaned in the head by the helper, in that same session and also being pressured to do something new that he is just learning in the form of a new way to guard, so he's in a lot of conflict and probably a bit confused on what is allowed vs not and what he should be doing. Pressure pressure everywhere and not much in the way of clear release for it. Pile enough pressure on the strongest dog in the world, and problems will result. Hopefully they're temporary. I don't imagine there is anyone, anywhere who's dog has always looked perfect in every training session. Some forms of training and sessions worse than others. The majority of competition dogs are force retrieved... that sure isn't pretty and if anyone was taking video of it the dog's behavior in some of those sessions sure would be questionable if it wasn't known what context it was in and what was going on. One moment in time, particularly when not viewed in context, doesn't say much about a dog one way or the other.

That particular training video wouldn't be my choice of things to work on in the same session or in that manner, but everyone has their own preferences. Anyone who's been around the block a few times, as I know Fast has, is well aware than when one starts hammering the dog for control, some power will be lost for a while, and conversely when the dog is freed up to show their power, some of the finer points of control might slip. Therein lies the tough balance of training dogs for these activities and all that video shows is a phase of training in the former category.


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## Fast

Chris, that all sounds perfectly reasonable. Thank you.



> my first thought is why would anyone even put that video out there for public viewing?


If someone that knows and admires the dog is wondering this, what is someone that knows nothing about the dog supposed to think? Since most people only post their dog looking good (aka Hollywood Hero), wouldn't it be reasonable for a newbie like Sabledog to have questions about the dog's qualities and how those of you who admire the dog came to feel that way about him?


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## Chris Wild

Fast said:


> Chris, that all sounds perfectly reasonable. Thank you.


I rather suspect that you saw the same things yourself as well as the "why" without my resonable explanation.  But surely someone new would not. 

Heck, there's a video of one of my dogs out there that I wish wasn't there, for the opposite reason. Showing tons of power at an SDA trial, but she apparently forgot what "fuß" meant that day. Not the best showcase for her and if that were the only thing someone saw they would think she'd never had a day of heeling training or had control problems. It would be an erroneous assumption, but that was an off day with things out of balance. It happens to all of us... we just cringe when it makes youtube.




Fast said:


> If someone that knows and admires the dog is wondering this, what is someone that knows nothing about the dog supposed to think? Since most people only post their dog looking good (aka Hollywood Hero), wouldn't it be reasonable for a newbie like Sabledog to have questions about the dog's qualities and how those of you who admire the dog came to feel that way about him?


I don't think the questions were unreasonable or bashing either, though once feathers got ruffled there was a bit of unnecessary nastiness in the tread on both sides.....


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## sabledog

Thank you Chris. That's exactly what I'm looking for.


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## Fast

You gotta pluck a few feathers if you want to get to the meat. 

And don't start giving the impression that I know why the dog was doing that stuff. I'm just another ignorant loudmouth guttersnipe on the internets.


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## cliffson1

Hey Fast....Trust me I knew what you meant and stand by what I said. I described the same things Chris did in an earlier post....didn't expect you to acknowledge that from me , but what difference does that mean to me. I have worked the dog, know the dog, and KNOW German Shepherds regardless of what anyone on this board thinks of me.....I just don't use sport or show criteria to determine a dog's worth. I also noticed you DIDN'T comment on what you saw .....he is what he is. From the video Sabledog saw just an ordinary dog....fine....it still is what it is.


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## Chris Wild

Well, in all fairness to our feathered friends, statements like 
"A serious dog would not be sniffing the ground, IMO." 
and
"And look at his grips. On the prey bites, he bites full. On the re-attacks he bites half. Again, a serious dog would come in full and hard, even on a re-attack."

don't come across as a newbie asking innocent questions, but rather someone passing judgement on the overall dog based on a few seconds of bad video. If the person really does want to learn, and doesn't have the experience base to see and understand what is going on in that video, different phrasing might be in order. As Granny used to say, sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it that matters.


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## Fast

cliffson1 said:


> Hey Fast....Trust me I knew what you meant and stand by what I said. I described the same things Chris did in an earlier post....didn't expect you to acknowledge that from me , but what difference does that mean to me. I have worked the dog, know the dog, and KNOW German Shepherds regardless of what anyone on this board thinks of me.....I just don't use sport or show criteria to determine a dog's worth. I also noticed you DIDN'T comment on what you saw .....he is what he is. From the video Sabledog saw just an ordinary dog....fine....it still is what it is.


Cliffson you are failing to adhere to the truth. You never gave an answer as to why the dog was biting shallow on reattacks or sniffing the ground.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Fast said:


> Cliffson you are failing to adhere to the truth. You never gave an answer as to why the dog was biting shallow on reattacks or sniffing the ground.


Because he's a dog, and not perfect, and hard to make judgements from ONE video on ONE day doing ONE set of skills.

Cliffson may have taken for granted you'd realize this so not gone into details, but Chris Wild did a great breakdown.


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## sabledog

Chris Wild said:


> Well, in all fairness to our feathered friends, statements like
> "A serious dog would not be sniffing the ground, IMO."
> and
> "And look at his grips. On the prey bites, he bites full. On the re-attacks he bites half. Again, a serious dog would come in full and hard, even on a re-attack."
> 
> don't come across as a newbie asking innocent questions, but rather someone passing judgement on the overall dog based on a few seconds of bad video. If the person really does want to learn, and doesn't have the experience base to see and understand what is going on in that video, different phrasing might be in order. As Granny used to say, sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it that matters.


Chris, how else would you have liked me to say it? I asked what was exceptional, I got asked why I wasn't impressed. I posted a video and explained my concerns. I've been training IPO for about a year. IMO that still makes me a newbie. I'm sorry I came across as making accusations, I was merely trying to point out exactly why I was asking the question.


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## cliffson1

Fast, because my judgements of the dog were not based on that video....can't say why what's in the video occurred.....My judgements are based on having worked the dog in a suit and sleeve. The dog's ability to escalate the fight depending on what the decoy presents. I have seen a lot of dogs recently with nice full grips that find comfort in the sleeve....this isn't one of those dogs. His muzzlework gives a clue about the dog, but many people today wouldn't know how to read muzzlework because they won't let their dogs engage in it. I also don't view a dog's worth based on sport tracking....a trainers worth??....yes....but not necessarily the dog. 
I think we can all agree that he is a dog that did well for Melanie in anything she asked him to do....that should satisfy everyone.


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## onyx'girl

I am sorry this thread has taken such a turn to have to defend him. 
Maybe Chuck will post on the "Andy Pups" progress from his kennel. I'm interested in knowing how all of Andy's progeny is coming along(pics welcome too!)


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## sabledog

Jane, there is nothing to defend because Andy was not being attacked. I think he is a good dog, I never said he wasn't. But there's a difference between a good dog and the most impressive dog in the last 15 years. After the video I saw, I wanted to know why this particular dog would display those behaviors if he were really that amazing. No one but Chris wanted to break it down for me. Maybe I'm trying to learn the wrong way. I don't want to just know what dogs are good or bad, but WHY they are deemed as such. Does that make sense?

I have more questions but since they seem to freak everyone out I will ask them privately.


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## onyx'girl

sabledog, the reason I didn't post my thoughts on that video was because I thought it was obvious. I am sorry that I *ass*umed(Cliff's favorite word!) you were nitpicking a 2 second ground sniff when clearly Andy was being pressured with electric to control himself in that video. I also _ass_umed that you were not a "newbie" from many of your other posts. I don't judge people by when they joined or how many posts they have, but the meat of what they are posting, and you always seem to have a good read on things. 

Chris described the scenario well, and I was hoping Fast would have done so as she/he was the one pushing the issue. Coming from me would have raised more questions, as I don't have a smidgen of explaining so well as Chris does!

I do respect Melanie's reason for putting up that video, she will put up training video's publicly that may not show the dog in the best light. Not many do that and it helps others when training/learning. She continues to post vids, and I thoroughly enjoy them. She's a great decoy and trainer. Her channel is one that is worth bookmarking on youtube.

I was intrigued with Andy because of all the vids there are of him _training/not trialing_.
Had she not posted any of those, I probably would have thought he was just another dog with many titles. 

Too bad we can't hear more of the tone of posts instead of the words.....tone is so important in real life.

So again, I apologize to you, and I hope your questions get answered, publicly or privately.


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## Chris Wild

Sable, check your PMs. I sent you 2 but am not sure they went through...


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## sabledog

Chris, I got them, thanks!

Jane, I think it is nice to see that even the best dogs display certain behaviors under pressure. I have been involved in protection sports for about two years but only seriously started training my own dog in IPO in October 2011. She is my first working dog. I have had the pleasure and honor of learning under some great mentors but at this stage of the game I still consider myself to be very new to all of it.


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