# Castrate:12 or 18 months??



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I have decided to castrate my boy......so that decision is made
I have always done it at 6months as that is what we were taught as veterinary nurses. Since reading the forum I decided to wait until 18months as the reasons given I thought were very fair.
Luther will be 12months on the 1st March (bless him :wub and has so far shown no "male" tendencies except for the odd interest in our speyed kelpie's toilet habits. 
He has been a dream to own......just wonderful... so my reasons for maybe doing it earlier are purely for MY convenience. 
I am due to have a baby in 10 weeks and have just been thinking that maybe I should have it done b4 my life takes on a busy new chapter.

Would there be much difference in not waiting the extra 6months do you think? Like in terms of growth, filling out etc? He is a big boy now......around the 42kgs (His parents were a lot smaller than he is) and is really starting to look amazing......his head is masculine and he just looks so fit and well. Will desexing him now change all this??

I know it shouldn't be a big concern but I just want to do the best thing......and OK.....make things easier for me.....we live a long way from the vets who will do the surgery so it will take quite an effort to get him there etc.

What do you think?? Will it be worth the "hassle" in another 6months to leave him intact now??


----------



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

There are a million different opinions. I waited until 20 months. I wanted him to be completely mature, and to also get the procedure done before swimming season! So, he just was nuetered two weeks ago. He was never a problem in anyway, male issues -wise. The one change I have noticed is he is not so into all the smells at dog class and much more focused. No more lip-fluttering, frothing, eyes rolling, me laughing at him stuff.

I would either do it now before the baby, or wait untill baby is older as I spent some time just pampering my guy and making sure he did not lick the incision site. (He went nuts with the cone)


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would wait until he is 18 months-2 years old to neuter him.

At a year old they are still growing.


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

LaRen616 said:


> I would wait until he is 18 months-2 years old to neuter him.
> 
> At a year old they are still growing.


Yep.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah.....deep down I think that is what I should do....it was my original plan.

Thanks......one less thing I have to do in the next 10 weeks....


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

My vet also recommended waiting until Stosh was 20 mos old which is what we did. Your dog is gorgeous!


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I planned on doing Djibouti at 24-30 mos. He's so easy I decided against it. IF there's ever a compelling reason to I will reconsider.

Conversely, a friend planned to keep hers intact & probably breed him at some point. She's absolutely thrilled with him & has found him to be smart, biddable & thoroughly pleasant. For whatever reason she decided to neuter him ~6 mos of age!I was surprised but it was her decision to make. (FTR, although in principle I'm generally opposed to neutering before 1yr & preferably 2, those I've known neutered at 6-8 mos also did very well. Too often this issue has been overblown on both sides.)


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Can I ask why people are talking about neutering males that they are admitting they have no problems with?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Can I ask why people are talking about neutering males that they are admitting they have no problems with?


I'm not gonna lie. I don't want the responsibility of owning an intact dog. I do a lot of off-leash hiking and don't want him fathering puppies due to a moment of weakness or inattention. I don't to worry about him accidentally breeding when I leave him with the dog-sitter. I don't want him motivated to wander if the dog-sitter leaves him in my fenced back yard unattended for too long and the neighbor's female is in heat. And I'm tired of dealing with igmoramouses who think an intact GSD is a vicious animal, and ignoramouses who think I should breed him to their female so I can have "pick of the litter." 

He's going in for a gastropexy anyway or I might not neuter, but I'll go ahead and do it when he's under for the 'pexy.


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> I would wait until he is 18 months-2 years old to neuter him.
> 
> At a year old they are still growing.


 
:thumbup:


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Hmmm. I appreciate your honesty, Emoore, though I can't say I understand. Thank you for answering though.


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Hmmm. I appreciate your honesty, Emoore, though I can't say I understand.


 
Which part? :thinking:

Seems pretty clear to me. She doesn't want him to father an accidental litter.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

It's weird. On the one hand you've got the folks who think there's something wrong with you if you don't neuter at 4 or 6 months. Certainly if your dog is intact at 1 year of age you're either clueless or evil. On the other hand you've got folks who don't think you should ever neuter. Personally I think either choice is valid so long as the decision is made with intention and forethought; not by default on either side.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Can I ask why people are talking about neutering males that they are admitting they have no problems with?


I guess I have just always had my male dogs neutered. I haven't really owned an intact male.....just always thought if you don't want to breed then neuter.
I must admit this is a big step for me having a 12 month old entire male and waiting another 6 months.....also here in Victoria it is over $100 a year to register and intact male as opposed to $15 if they are neutered although that really isn't an issue i guess......but it is frowned upon not to have your dog desexed.
I live rurally (very rurally.....remote) and our kelpie is speyed so the chance of him getting to be a daddy are very slim.......who knows maybe in 6months I might decide to save myself some money......we will see I guess.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I decided against neutering Djibouti b/c he's been so easy. My niece's Lab was neutered b/w 4-6 mos b/c daycare won't accept him if he's intact. She didn't like it but daycare offers advantages she doesn't want to pass on.

I don't know why my friend neutered her guy. I was surprised, especially since it was the opposite of what she originally intended. I'll have to ask her.

Another friend routinely neuters her males sometime after 2 b/c her bitches are intact & she's known she didn't want to breed her males. The household runs more easily.

Many of my friends got shelter dogs & it's routine regardless of how young they are.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Sparra, I emphasize to people that I won't be breeding Djibouti. Keeping him intact is only for the potential health benefits. IF I get a look, I reiterate that I have never bred & that I'm adamantly opposed to amateurs such as myself breeding.

IF my city starts licensing with fees assessed according to intact or neutered I'll consider getting Djibouti a vasectomy.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I don't think a jurisdiction will consider a vasectomy the same as a neuter. Part of the deal is often intact males tend to roam & mark. A dog with a vasectomy is still intact.


----------



## stacey_eight (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm going to neuter Zeke, even though he is no problem whatsoever intact. We have an invisible fence (only thing allowed by HOA) and while I don't leave him out there alone, I don't want to take the chance. Also, I would like to add a female pup eventually and he _will_ be neutered before I'd consider bringing a girl home. I do not want an "accident". Personally, I'm waiting until 2-2.5. Zeke is a working/showline cross, and I don't feel he's grown and filled out yet. My vet is big-time into herding, and has had GSD's though she's really a border collie person. She recommends not neutering until 4, but preferrably never if I don't have to.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

RubyTuesday, looks like you and me are gonna be pals. LOL:thumbup:

Staceyeight, that just figures. Here you are, all about neutering, and have a progressive vet with half a brain, it sounds like, and I have looked for decades to find a vet like that to no avail. Figures! Murphy's Law. :laugh: :headbang:

Greg, I will never understand how people can be blase and nonchalant about removing an entire body system from an animal for the sake of convenience or "what ifs" that can easily be controlled by proper management. Nothing short of medical emergency would force me to neuter a male. Spaying an OLDER female has its pros and cons, but there are no benefits to neutering a male except human convenience, and I am just philosophically opposed to that. When I own a dog, decisions are made in their best interest first, and if those decisions cause me extra hassle or extra money (and they do!) so be it. _That_ is what I don't understand.

Overpopulation is never going to be solved by neutering or spaying. The vast majority of the problem is INTENTIONAL breedings by puppymillers and bybs; the occasional "oops" is a drop in the bucket compared to these numbers.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Greg, I will never understand how people can be blase and nonchalant about removing an entire body system from an animal for the sake of convenience or "what ifs" that can easily be controlled by proper management. Nothing short of medical emergency would force me to neuter a male. Spaying an OLDER female has its pros and cons, but there are no benefits to neutering a male except human convenience, and I am just philosophically opposed to that. When I own a dog, decisions are made in their best interest first, and if those decisions cause me extra hassle or extra money (and they do!) so be it. _That_ is what I don't understand.


It's interesting what you say. Like I said, I wouldn't be doing it if it weren't for the fact that we were doing a gastropexy. (His father and at least 1 other male relative have died from bloat.) Having fostered with rescue for many years I've taken lots of males through the neuter process and I've seen how quickly and easily they come through it, so I don't see any reason _not_ to do it. I also like to own multiple males and feel that aggression between them is less likely when they're neutered. Those who have owned multiple intact males can inform me on that though.


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Can I ask why people are talking about neutering males that they are admitting they have no problems with?


To me it varies. With Jinx she will be getting fixed.. we had really big issues with infections on her first heat and I'm doing all I can this time to keep her from getting issues and hoping it works but not sure yet so we will be getting her fixed in a few months (she'll be around 18 months) I may wait longer if we don't have any problems with this heat. Mine is part medical and part not wanting to deal with heats although the medical ranks way above convenience. I'm not worried about an oops because I am BEYOND hyper vigilant when it comes to her being in heat. If I had problems with a male I'd consider fixing him otherwise I really don't have any desire to fix a male.


----------



## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Overpopulation is never going to be solved by neutering or spaying. The vast majority of the problem is INTENTIONAL breedings by puppymillers and bybs; the occasional "oops" is a drop in the bucket compared to these numbers.


I cana't say that I agree with this. In my area, there are numerous backyard breeders breeding toy dog to toy dog to make a quick buck, including the "designer" types. 

However, the shelters are just filled with big, mixed breed puppies and dogs from "oops" unplanned litters, and these are the dogs that are more difficult to place. Just walk through any shelter and compare the number of small dogs to large dogs. Large breed "oops" litters are the biggest problem around here as far as I can tell.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

But Jo, who bred the parents of the mutts you see in shelters? Likely, a few generations ago, they were intentionally bred by BYBs or puppymills. There are PLENTY of large breed puppy mills. 

Seeing big mutts in shelters doesn't mean that's the *biggest* problem, to me. To me, it says that they are* more likely* to end up in shelters because of behavioral issues, than, say, a poorly bred Maltese. Small dogs don't stay in shelters long. That doesn't mean that plenty of them aren't contributing to overpopulation. 

You are never going to convince idiots to be responsible and careful with their dogs. I choose to be careful with mine, rather than jeopardize their health for what I see is a futile effort to curb a problem that will never be solved until overall views change and society as a whole becomes more responsible. Why punish mine when the people causing the problems aren't going to change? 

FWIW, I'm not oblivious to the added costs. I pay an extra $150 "intact" fee per rabies tag. But am I going to risk my dog's health to save myself $600 over his life, if you figure 4 3yr vaccines?


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Greg, I will never understand how people can be blase and nonchalant about removing an entire body system from an animal for the sake of convenience or "what ifs" that can easily be controlled by proper management.


But the fact is some people are.

Also, one can be a very responsible dog owner and quite diligent about keeping their intact male away from females in heat but there sure are a lot of scenarios that could give that dog the one chance and there you have it, 8 more dogs brought into the world.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Sure, Greg. And the fact is that some people are so irresponsible that they shouldn't have children or own pets or drive cars. Shall we all stop doing those things as well?

Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I don't think a jurisdiction will consider a vasectomy the same as a neuter.


At the community meeting in my city I was told that proof of a vasectomy would pass muster & Djibouti would be eligible for the lower licensing fees. Undoubtedly that varies from one locale to another. It became a non-issue here b/c they dropped (at least temporarily) plans to license. 

IF I had a dog with escape/roaming tendencies I'd castrate for several reasons quite apart from reproductive capacity.


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Jen, 

You would LOVE my vet.

He has NEVER even mentioned spaying Siren and when Wrangler was young, his words were, for folks that are concerned about testicular cancer, he recommends neutering by 8 YEARS old. (He remained intact for life.)

I don't breed my dogs, I also don't cut off (or out) body parts for reason.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

All these rigidly anti-neuter folks confuse me. You bend over backwards advising people leave dogs intact, then act like you're killing your dog if you neuter or spay.
I too have neutered/spayed hundreds of dogs and none of them have had issues. My 10yr. old sheltie female is spayed, has been since 4mos. and no spay incontinence (a huge reason cited for leaving your girls intact). We have a rescued senior poodle mix who is at least 10yrs. and appears to have been spayed as a puppy (no evidence of sexual maturity) and no spay incontinence. She was badly neglected prior to coming here, too.

S/N ought to be left up to the owner and their vet, since it's their dog, they pay it's bills, and guilt trips ought not to be laid on them for s/n their own pet.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

All of my dogs and my family's dogs (and cats for that matter) have ALL been neutered or spayed at 6 months and we've never had any issues at all. I'll be getting a GSD puppy in a few weeks and I'm planning on neutering/spaying at 6 months again. That's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

msvette2u said:


> S/N ought to be left up to the owner and their vet, since it's their dog, they pay it's bills, and guilt trips ought not to be laid on them for s/n their own pet.


Yeah, it's kind of a surreal experience, getting judged from both sides. The spay/neuter crowd judges me for owning an intact 14 month old. The anti-spay/neuter crowd judges because I'm going to neuter him around 18 months. You can't win; but then again I just don't care what the little voices on the internet think.


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Emoore said:


> .....but then again I just don't care what the little voices on the internet think.


And that's how it SHOULD be!!

I don't care what folks on the internet OR in person think. My dogs, MY decission. I don't care what others do with their dogs. It's none of MY buisness. 

If folks want to leave them intact, I HOPE they are responsible enough to handle it.

If they choose to have them altered, I hope they are doing it for the right reason. And not as an excuse to be a crappy owner. (Meaning such things as feeling that since the dog is altered, it is ok to let it run the streets alone, ect.....) This isn't directed at anyone here. Talking about "Joe Public" in general.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Yeah, it's kind of a surreal experience, getting judged from both sides. The spay/neuter crowd judges me for owning an intact 14 month old. The anti-spay/neuter crowd judges because I'm going to neuter him around 18 months. *You can't win; but then again I just don't care what the little voices on the internet think.*


:thumbup:

It seems the type passion I've seen here should be reserved for such arguments as whether or not to eat your dog for dinner. 

Or maybe vocal cord removal


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BlackGSD said:


> And that's how it SHOULD be!!
> 
> I don't care what folks on the internet OR in person think. My dogs, MY decission. I don't care what others do with their dogs. It's none of MY buisness.
> 
> ...


But...if they _do_ let their dog roam, hopefully they'll remove it from the gene pool


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

My next door neighbor has a beagle/jack mix. He was intact until a year ago when he was in so much pain from his prostate being enlarged. This is aggravated by intact females heat cycles. He constantly lets his dog loose to do his business in my yard (not fenced). So now his dog is neutered, and my bitch is still intact. Karma! (not for the poor dog though wasnt his fault his male owner has issues) So there can be health reasons for neutering as well.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes. While waiting at the vet one day, there was a poor Shepherd mix there, who was in some type of agony. Every few moments he'd strain as if he needed to pee, or poop. His owner was in tears. 
He said he was waiting for the vet to have a moment to put the dog to sleep.
I felt so bad, so asked the vet what it would take to help this dog. I was going to consider paying for the dog's bills.
But as it turned out, the dog needed to go to the animal ER (it was almost 5pm and their clinic closes at 5:30) if it was to remain alive and possibly survive. Our rescue could not afford that 
The dog's prostate was enlarged and blocking everything. The dog had been in pain for a day or two already, could not have a BM or pee. 
And the vet was po'ed about it all...because it was so preventable by neutering.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Tracy, where do you find those vets?! LUCKY girl!!!

If I cut off my head, I would also eliminate any risk of a brain tumor.

Prostate cancer risk quadruples in a neutered dog; NON-cancerous risks are increased in intact dogs. The prostate argument is pretty weak, actually. 

Here is a good, concise list:
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)


On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Tracy, where do you find those vets?! LUCKY girl!!!
> 
> If I cut off my head, I would also eliminate any risk of a brain tumor.
> 
> ...



The above analogy is not effective because we aren't killing the dogs to save them from cancer.

Can you please post studies for the above statistics? 
The adverse reaction to vaccinations, for instance, seems extremely subjective and since it's known that some vaccines have a very high incidence of adverse reactions, I'd want to see a study that shows intact vs. altered animals and the incidence of reactions.

"Risk of obesity"? Really? It's been proven that this is dietary and activity related and not a "side effect" of neuter/spay.


----------



## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

I'd like to see some solid evidence proving that leaving a male intact is healthier. Last week an acquaintance was telling me about the loss of his pit bull to testicular cancer and how the poor dog couldn't walk as the cancer had impacted his movement. Now, when I discussed neutering with my vet he felt it was better to leave my dog intact but told me to examine his testicles every month (we ended up neutering him). What confuses me is that there doesn't seem to be a consensus as to which is healthier. I've read that boys that were castrated for the Italian opera typically lived longer then regular men and I've also heard that neutered dogs live longer.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Almost every single senior intact pet we've gotten into rescue has had some reproductive tract (or breast) cancer. We've seen testicular, one on a senior boy's anus (impossible to do surgery on without wrecking that muscle), plenty of breast cancers, and even cervical cancer (we're assuming, the tumor was growing out her vulva).


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

LOL. I beg to differ, but I have heard that mentality before. Vets say to cut off testicles to eliminate testicular cancer. Well DUH. Cut off ANYTHING and it eliminates cancer in that organ. :smirk:

There is ZERO health benefit to castrating dogs as a prophylactic. I think the mentality is frankly terrifying. You're predisposing or at least increasing their risks of some of the most common killers in GSDs (hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, etc.), all because you don't want to improve your handling skills or be extra diligent?  

I also think men should take note of the women who think like that. 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I'm pretty staunch in my beliefs. I don't care what other people do, but I would NEVER sell a dog to someone who plans on whacking off all the parts they deem inconvenient. Hormones are so necessary; they regulate all sorts of body systems and processes. It absolutely baffles me that intelligent human beings can truly think that removing WHOLE SYSTEMS has no side effects.  Then again, I don't know why it surprises me. I see people's dogs who look like absolute %^&* and they think they're "fine."


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> "Risk of obesity"? Really? It's been proven that this is dietary and activity related and not a "side effect" of neuter/spay.


Technically, this _is_ a side effect of spay/neuter (iirc, metabolic rate lowers) - but one very easy to counter (by changing how much they eat and how much they exercise) - so there's no reason to let that stop you from altering if that is what you want to do.

~

And really...okay, if someone seems to be in dire need of advice as to why they should or should not spay/neuter, then sure, drop a line or two...I don't have a problem with that...but, there's no need to beat them over the head with a hammer. If they've already firmly decided it's unlikely a few voices on the internet are going to change their mind.

/shrug

Honestly, yeah, it probably is "better" for an individual male dog to remain intact (unless there are medical symptoms necessitating otherwise)...

But once they're mature, or really, even close to mature, we're talking about infinitesimally small risks. And like it or not there are some behavioral changes that go along with that, that most people tend to appreciate.

So while the math may add up to leave them intact as the "better" option...is there really a major difference between .01 and .011, enough of a difference to get up in arms about? I'd still never fix a dog as a pup, I think there are some legitimate risks there, but...even there, they are pretty small. And once you get closer to adult age, the outlook on overall risks really starts narrowing (at least IMHO).

Honestly if I were going to neuter an adult dog, the behavioral changes that *tend* to go along with that would be a more compelling reason to do so, rather than the health risks. I'm still a bit queasy on neutering for personal convenience, though - although I won't condemn others for doing that.

Nobody is killing their dog no matter what they decide to do and they should not be made to feel that way. And if you want to look at it, sure, if you castrate an 8 week old puppy, maybe he has 15% chance of some nasty disorder X (I don't know of any thoroughly studied risks that are actually that high). But he's still got a 85% chance of not ever getting it. Important to flip things around, too, so you see the other side of the coin.

And keep in mind most of the time we are looking at risks around the 1-3% range.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

It's real easy to blame being intact (as nature created the dog) for the cancer or whatever ailment, but I think poor health, diet, and care are more likely. And by the time a dog is in their teens, what's the difference what body part is affected??? Testicular cancer can be treated in its early stages by neutering at that time, but far more deadly is prostate cancer.


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> There is ZERO health benefit to castrating dogs as a prophylactic.


Not true, even in the slightest.

There are plenty of benefits just as there are plenty of detriments - see the paper you yourself linked.

~

My feelings on health risks are more that dogs have a genetic predisposition toward things, and that combined with diet, exercise, overall health, etc, plays a far greater role than spay/neuter does. I am sure it affects health to some degree - as you have said you are removing a major hormone, one that is a primary component of the endocrine system, and one that we know impacts various bodily systems. There are certainly going to be side effects - some good, some bad.

But what we see from veterinary science is that in almost all cases, these risks are very, very small percentage changes.

I am more worried about someone who is feeding their dog a poor diet and giving them no exercise and socialization than I am a person who decides to neuter a six-month old puppy. I think they are risking a lot by doing it at that age but not as much as they would be risking with bad diet/puppy-rearing.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, my opinion is, they have to die from something. 

You're really about 6 of one and half a dozen (intact vs. altered) of the other in most cases.

You could blame being intact, or being altered, either way, something will take their lives, just like with us.

For those of us who like our pets altered, please stop acting like we're handing them a death sentence, because that's just not true. 
And if we don't feel like dealing with the added responsibility of having an intact pet, that's fine and not to be judged but to be commended.

Next thing people will be saying is our dogs would be better off dead than with lazy-asses like us who'd rather alter than "be responsible". 

This is so...twilight zone...!!


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Next thing people will be saying is our dogs would be better off dead than with lazy-asses like us who'd rather alter than "be responsible".
> 
> This is so...twilight zone...!!


Don't speak too soon, I've seen that said before.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh I know!! I'm actually waiting for it!!

(btw, I think I love you!!  )


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Yeah, it's kind of a surreal experience, getting judged from both sides. The spay/neuter crowd judges me for owning an intact 14 month old. The anti-spay/neuter crowd judges because I'm going to neuter him around 18 months. You can't win; but then again I just don't care what the little voices on the internet think.


Agree.....but what gets under my skin is when the anti-spey/neuter crowd use terms like "mutilate" or as was mention in this thread "cut off" bits.

OK so getting back to my original question......Emoore......you are waiting til the 18months......is that so his growing is complete and he is mature?

Oh and *vom Eisenherz* nature also created horses to be intact but they get castrated by the millions......


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Draugr, I truly could not care less as it doesn't affect my dogs. I don't get any buyers from that crowd interested in my dogs, period, so it's extremely rare that this issue comes up to me, unless it's someone asking advice who has actually thought it through and realized it can't be that easy/simple and "good" to remove body systems, or everyone would be lining up to do it. Those people don't like dogs like mine, so it doesn't affect me personally whatsoever. 

I just think it's only fair to the DOGS (who suffer for everyone's ignorance on *all* issues) to present both sides in a scientific manner, not in a Bob Barker manner. 

When people do it themselves, electively, then I'll look into it a little deeper. But as a means of pacifying an animal and removing personal responsibility from the equation of dog handling, I think it's terrible. Sorry, but I see no reason to sugar coat. I don't see the neuter crowd being that gentle on forums, so why should I not just be honest about my feelings as well? They are quite self-righteous most of the time, so why is it offensive when I am equally blunt? I'm not attacking people personally or name-calling, so what's the big deal? Is it really so threatening to have someone point out that all the issues brought up as good reasons are within other means of human control? And often, people ARE interested in the truth about it, as only one side is ever presented in the average vet's office. If people don't look, they won't find the other side of the coin. I guess I think we owe it to the dogs. When people know better, they do better (mostly).

Regardless, I won't be bothering anyone anymore; I have to pack up for a road trip cross country with 5 <gasp> intact dogs at the crack of dawn. So, clearly, I must be insane, so disregard.:laugh::laugh:


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

My last dog was neutered at 23 months and lived a great, healthy, happy, fit life until we had to put him to sleep at almost 13 years old last spring. Was never overweight, but he ended up with what we think was an internal bleed; the vet thought a tumor on the spleen most likely. However, he said the one thing he had for sure was something we couldn't fix, ever: old age. Did neutering cause that? We won't ever know, but I think living long enough in general can result in cancer. 

He died peacefully, with all of us with him, loving him. 

So in his case, neutering had no effect on his life in a negative way that I could discern.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

sparra said:


> Oh and *vom Eisenherz* nature also created horses to be intact but they get castrated by the millions......


Not to mention cattle. And goats. And sheep. And...and...


----------



## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I've always thought the argument that neutering is terrible because it is unnatural and not the way nature created dogs to be a bit bizarre.

Domestication is _far_ more of an unnatural thing than that. There is absolutely nothing "natural" about the relationship between dogs and humans. We crafted that, not nature. We were the driving force for domestication. Compare a St. Bernard to a Chihuahua - and realize both of those came from the wolf through tens of thousands of years of selective breeding.

If neutering is terrible because it is unnatural and against nature...then the mere existence of dogs is a far, far worse crime.

~

I'm not saying I'm either for or against it. Just that...the arguments as to why you MUST do one or the other, either way, are not very compelling to me. I just want people to be personally responsible with their animals. If that means neutering, then so be it. If it means not neutering, then so be it.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

sparra said:


> OK so getting back to my original question......Emoore......you are waiting til the 18months......is that so his growing is complete and he is mature?
> .


Yes, I don't want to neuter or 'pexy (another form of mutilation I'm sure) until he's basically grown.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Yes, I don't want to neuter or 'pexy (another form of mutilation I'm sure) until he's basically grown.


Yup.....I think that is what I am going to do.....just wait.....I am sure this baby will be a dream baby and all will be easy....haha!!!!!
Was looking at him today and he is really looking great.....filling out looking like a real "man"......like I said maybe I will get to 18months and change my mind......thanks.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Draugr said:


> I'm not saying I'm either for or against it. Just that...the arguments as to why you MUST do one or the other, either way, are not very compelling to me. I just want people to be personally responsible with their animals. If that means neutering, then so be it. If it means not neutering, then so be it.


Well said


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I'd wait until 2 years for sure.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Draugr said:


> I've always thought the argument that neutering is terrible because it is unnatural and not the way nature created dogs to be a bit bizarre.
> 
> Domestication is _far_ more of an unnatural thing than that. There is absolutely nothing "natural" about the relationship between dogs and humans. We crafted that, not nature. We were the driving force for domestication. Compare a St. Bernard to a Chihuahua - and realize both of those came from the wolf through tens of thousands of years of selective breeding.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Sure, Greg. And the fact is that some people are so irresponsible that they shouldn't have children or own pets or drive cars. Shall we all stop doing those things as well?


 
Works for me. :thumbup:


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

But intact dogs don't often seriously injure or KILL their owners/handlers. Stallions and bulls often DO!!

BIG difference between something the size of a dog, even a HUGE dog, and something the size of a 1400 lb stallion or a 2000+ lb bull.

(This coming from someone that also owns a stallion, and used to have/raise bucking bulls.)


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

OH true dat 

I do believe neutered male dogs to be more biddable for an_ average_ owner, however. And I realize most the folks on here are quite a bit above average


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> OH true dat
> 
> I do believe neutered male dogs to be more biddable for an_ average_ owner, however. And I realize most the folks on here are quite a bit above average


LOL. As to the last sentance(sp)........... You SURE about that?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Naw. But those that aren't are so touchy, and I hate to offend 'em


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

is the subject still testicles??? :thinking:


----------



## ZeroThus (Aug 16, 2016)

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to owning a GSD. My vet recommend me if i wasn't going to breed Hans i should neuter him, however after reading this post, i really don't know what to think. Hans is 4 month old right now, is there any Pros and Cons if i wait 1-2 years instead of 6-8 months?

Thank you guys


----------

