# IDEAL age to breed?



## havery

I'm so far away from ever breeding, but I've got a couple questions specifically regarding breeding age for females. 

I know most people say 2 years at the earliest, assuming she's had her hips/elbows checked and bloodwork done and has been titled. But what is really generally the BEST age? My girl is 16 months and I really don't see her mature enough to breed this fall after we have her hips evaluated, unless she's about to grow up a LOT in the next few months (or is my dog weird for still being a bit immature at this point?). She could be titled within the year, I'm the only thing holding her back. So forgetting what's possible, what is "ideal?" The more I become immersed in the breed, the more it seems like 3 years would be a better goal to avoid immature bitches? Or am I just completely missing something? You can call me an idiot if you like, I AM pretty new to all this


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## lhczth

Since I want my females titled they have generally been in the 3-3.5 year old age group. Nike was just shy of three when she had her first litter. Vala was 3.5. Deja was 4 and that litter was the easiest whelping I have ever been through. Younger bitches usually are more fertile and whelp more easily, but, as with Deja, that is not always the case. I would not want a bitch bred for the first time past 5 and even that would be pushing it.


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## Andaka

I would say 3 years +/--.


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## havery

Alright. So I'm not crazy. 

I've had people asking when I plan on breeding her..."She's already had one heat, she's ready!" Um. No. She's nowhere near ready. IF I ever breed her. A huge IF. She's a great dog and would contribute some awesome pups to the breed with the right sire, but I'm not sure my family will be ready for the responsibility even if she is. Can't I just enjoy my dog?


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## selzer

Certainly you can just enjoy your puppy. It is refreshing to hear someone considering the responsibility of breeding before the fact.

Arwen and Jenna were 4 years
Babs was almost 3 when she had the puppies. 
I had on that had a litter at 2. 

Definitely no problems with them being 3 or 4 years for a first litter. You do not want to go much farther than that, though, if you are going to breed.


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## martemchik

What kind of titling/training are you planning on doing with her? Has her structure been evaluated? Lots of important things to look at besides getting hips x-rayed.

I'm not trying to be rude, but your lack of dedication in training is not an excuse or a way to say "well she could have a title so therefore she's breedworthy." And I'm not even a title snob, I'd be cool with you getting some AKC titles on her just to prove she's worth something. Sorry...too many times people think they have more than they really do because they haven't really been out there to see what else is there. You need to be able to compare your GSD to other GSDs and the only way to do that is to trial or train with others. You'll see what she excels in and you'll see her faults, then you'll have a clearer picture of "she would contribute some awesome pups to the breed."

I mean...if you won't dedicate yourself to training your dog, what would convince me that you're dedicated to finding the correct mate and then dedicated to the pups you've produced? How are you supposed to find out what your dog truly has without training/trialing?


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## Packen

People who breed titled bitches (Schh3) do not ask questions on forums. If you want to breed, just breed, there is no law against it.


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## havery

martemchik said:


> What kind of titling/training are you planning on doing with her? Has her structure been evaluated? Lots of important things to look at besides getting hips x-rayed.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude, but your lack of dedication in training is not an excuse or a way to say "well she could have a title so therefore she's breedworthy." And I'm not even a title snob, I'd be cool with you getting some AKC titles on her just to prove she's worth something. Sorry...too many times people think they have more than they really do because they haven't really been out there to see what else is there. You need to be able to compare your GSD to other GSDs and the only way to do that is to trial or train with others. You'll see what she excels in and you'll see her faults, then you'll have a clearer picture of "she would contribute some awesome pups to the breed."
> 
> I mean...if you won't dedicate yourself to training your dog, what would convince me that you're dedicated to finding the correct mate and then dedicated to the pups you've produced? How are you supposed to find out what your dog truly has without training/trialing?


That's kinda my whole point here...my family is at a weird crossroads this year, and I currently don't have the time to dedicate to training and titling, I am the first to admit that as much as it sucks. But next year I might, if things go well the next few months (fingers crossed, we freaking need a break!), and I am just trying to get my mental ducks in a row for all possibilities. I've just had a lot of people making me feel lately like I'm weird or wrong for not rushing through things and breeding her ASAP and I was looking for a bit of affirmation that my line of thinking wasn't the crazy one. As for my dog? Eventually I want an IPO title for her, the biggest disadvantage to us is that the closest training club is over an hour away. She's a natural tracker with a high enough drive I am starting to think I'm not going to be able to train her the way she needs and craves (both her parents were retired dual purpose K9). Her physical properties aren't perfect (a bit leggy) but overall she's a nicely rounded dog. This isn't from me, this is from training partners and a couple breeders I've been in contact with recently.

Trust me, I WANT to put in the effort, and hopefully soon I can. I'm planning for the day I can, anyway, I've been on an information binge the last couple months, since we started taking our training beyond the basics. I may never choose to breed her, who knows? I certainly don't right now. So far she's been a wonderful companion and enlightening learning experience, and I'd be happy if that's all she ever was, I'm just trying to figure out all of our *possible* future moves because I'm a compulsive planner.


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## havery

Packen said:


> People who breed titled bitches (Schh3) do not ask questions on forums. If you want to breed, just breed, there is no law against it.


This forum is called "Thinking about becoming a breeder?" Thinking about it, considering it, learning about it. Knowledge is not inherent, asking questions is the only way to learn things like this. Yes, I could and probably will discuss it with breeders I know personally. But, tell me, what's wrong with taking advantage of the larger sample population and ease of communication the internet provides?


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## blackshep

havery said:


> Can't I just enjoy my dog?


 Sure, why would you feel pressured to breed her?


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## martemchik

havery said:


> That's kinda my whole point here...my family is at a weird crossroads this year, and I currently don't have the time to dedicate to training and titling, I am the first to admit that as much as it sucks. But next year I might, if things go well the next few months (fingers crossed, we freaking need a break!), and I am just trying to get my mental ducks in a row for all possibilities. I've just had a lot of people making me feel lately like I'm weird or wrong for not rushing through things and breeding her ASAP and I was looking for a bit of affirmation that my line of thinking wasn't the crazy one. As for my dog? Eventually I want an IPO title for her, the biggest disadvantage to us is that the closest training club is over an hour away. She's a natural tracker with a high enough drive I am starting to think I'm not going to be able to train her the way she needs and craves (both her parents were retired dual purpose K9). Her physical properties aren't perfect (a bit leggy) but overall she's a nicely rounded dog. This isn't from me, this is from training partners and a couple breeders I've been in contact with recently.
> 
> Trust me, I WANT to put in the effort, and hopefully soon I can. I'm planning for the day I can, anyway, I've been on an information binge the last couple months, since we started taking our training beyond the basics. I may never choose to breed her, who knows? I certainly don't right now. So far she's been a wonderful companion and enlightening learning experience, and I'd be happy if that's all she ever was, I'm just trying to figure out all of our *possible* future moves because I'm a compulsive planner.


This is a great answer. I commend you for thinking this way. I guess I just don't get the drive or want to breed a dog that bad. I guess part of this is that you haven't really told about YOUR experience/knowledge with the breed and so I'm just sitting here assuming that you've either never owned a GSD and now that you have one from "retired dual purpose K9s" you feel the need to breed her. The people I know that have trained IPO (I'm just starting) live and breathe it to the point where its not a question that they're going to do it. Nothing in life really gets in the way of training their dog for it. If you haven't trained a dog for IPO, and you're only planning on starting when your girl is 2, its going to take a while to get the SchH3.

Sadly when family members and others push us to breed our dogs its because they know there is $$$ in it, and they're not really worried about the other things that come along with whelping a litter. They just see 10 puppies at $1500 a piece.

As a side note...very very very unlikely that her dam was a dual purpose K9. I'm not going to argue and tell you that your dog isn't from that, but I have NEVER met a female dual purpose K9. It's also extremely unlikely that if the police department used a female they'd leave her intact. They don't have a use for a dog that needs to take a break every 6 months due to a heat...

Being that your bitch is from two K9s, is she registered with the AKC?


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## martemchik

Maybe an explanation of your prior experience would help, I'm just sitting here assuming you don't know that much because you're asking such a question in the first place (and its not a bad thing that you are or that you have limited knowledge). I guess I would just expect someone that wants to breed to understand the proper age to breed a bitch BEFORE they even have one they're planning on breeding. IMO...it's just one of the basics, and I understand you're trying to get the information, but its just not something I'd like a potential breeder asking online.

I know you believe she's great. But you admit to not having compared her to any other GSD. I don't know what your experience is and therefore your statements of "high drive" or "tracking nose" don't mean much to me. What might be a high drive dog for you, isn't for me (due to experience). I'm at a GSD club where 95% of the dogs are ASL, my WL has extremely high drive compared to those dogs (the ones at my club not including all ASL in this), but when my dog is out with other WL dogs, he's medium drive compared to them. So there's the thing about talking about YOUR particular dog online...no one has seen, no one can compare, and without understanding your background with the breed, I can't really make a judgment on how good of an evaluator you are.


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## havery

martemchik said:


> This is a great answer. I commend you for thinking this way. I guess I just don't get the drive or want to breed a dog that bad. I guess part of this is that you haven't really told about YOUR experience/knowledge with the breed and so I'm just sitting here assuming that you've either never owned a GSD and now that you have one from "retired dual purpose K9s" you feel the need to breed her. The people I know that have trained IPO (I'm just starting) live and breathe it to the point where its not a question that they're going to do it. Nothing in life really gets in the way of training their dog for it. If you haven't trained a dog for IPO, and you're only planning on starting when your girl is 2, its going to take a while to get the SchH3.
> 
> Sadly when family members and others push us to breed our dogs its because they know there is $$$ in it, and they're not really worried about the other things that come along with whelping a litter. They just see 10 puppies at $1500 a piece.
> 
> As a side note...very very very unlikely that her dam was a dual purpose K9. I'm not going to argue and tell you that your dog isn't from that, but I have NEVER met a female dual purpose K9. It's also extremely unlikely that if the police department used a female they'd leave her intact. They don't have a use for a dog that needs to take a break every 6 months due to a heat...
> 
> Being that your bitch is from two K9s, is she registered with the AKC?


Even seriously starting to think about breeding is in all probability years and years away, and I certainly know there's no money in it, though I'm sure you're right and this is what everyone else is thinking about. This is something I've been passionate about since I was a kid, I've just never had the chance to be exposed to it before now. I've got a very young family (a toddler and a baby) and my husband is finishing his degree in criminal justice. So in reality we could be living anywhere and doing anything in 5 years, hopefully by the end of this year we'll know what's going on.

My dog's dam was trained as such (her owned trained & bred police workers) but never worked for a department, I guess I should have clarified, but I was just trying to shorten my answers a bit. Her sire (my dog's grandsire) was a narcotics dog. 

Yes, she is AKC. 

I guess I should have just left my current dog out of the original question. The likelihood of ever breeding her is very low, I was just using her as my experience with younger females as I was wondering why 2 seemed to be considered the prime age to start. I've only ever had male dogs before her, so I honestly didn't know about their maturity/readiness. I will say, though, that if I could transport her into the future with me, I'm pretty sure she's got the characteristics I'd want to breed into.


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## Wolfgeist

I agree that 3-4 years of age is ideal... that is usually when titles and health clearances are done.


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## martemchik

Two years is usually the age because that's when OFA's are official. On top of that:

A good bitch can easily be finished in the AKC ring by 2.

A person with the intent to breed and Schutzhund training skills, can easily have a SchH1 by 2 (I know someone that had a SchH2 by 2).

Many females don't ever get to SchH3 anyways, so people just get a 1 and breed away.

It has less to do with maturity, and more to do with having a dog that's ready on paper.

I also wanted to add...if you do it wrong, there's a lot of money in breeding. If you're just breeding your one dog, you definitely make money. Even if you consider the costs of trialing/training, you're making money. Like if that's your hobby, and you love to do it, and you train in SchH because you love it and not to "prove your dog's breeding worth," you're going to spend that money anyways, so if you breed your dog, and end up with a nice sized litter, you'll recoup that money and still be ontop (assuming the money was going to be spent anyways). Now...if you don't like SchH, and you're just doing it because the SV says you have to in order to breed your dog, yes, in all technicality there isn't any money in it.

My suggestion would be to join a club...any club. It could be a GSDCA club, SV, Schutzhund. And learn from people. See what they're doing. See what they're trying to accomplish. Understand why they want to breed this dog to that dog. You'll quickly pick up on the basics, its the more advanced things that you really need to start learning. After 3 years at my local GSDCA club, its amazing how much I know and how much better formed my opinions are.


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## selzer

I think it is very unwise to breed a dog you do not feel is mature enough. If you feel she is very puppyish, it can make raising a litter harder on you. 

Some bitches will take it in stride. Other bitches who are bred too young can reject a litter or worse.


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## scottj

3-5 years


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