# Reliable Breeder from Germany



## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

I am considering to buy a working line GS puppy from Germany. Can anyone recommend me a reliable breeder in Germany? My color preference is either black & tan or sable. I used to have a show line GS from a judge in N.J. The dog was loyal, friendly, smart etc. Nevertheless, he was timid, had digestive problem and hip problem. After reading a lot of threads in this forum, I agree that these problems are caused by show line breeders in the U.S. Thanks


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

same problems from Germany in SL - so don't fool your self...

You can get a decent WL pup here!!! Without personal contacts in Germany or being a known home that the dog will get exposure - you take risks getting a pup from Germany - many breeders will send the puppy they deem "least likely suceed" to a foreign country.

Are you looking for a companion puppy or do you plan on some sport activity with the puppy....

Lee


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I agree with Lee, you can find good dogs here too, and you have the advantage of seeing the breeder and their dogs. 

There are a bunch of good breeders on this site, so you can click on their webpages and contact them for recommendations to help.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> same problems from Germany in SL - so don't fool your self...
> 
> You can get a decent WL pup here!!! Without personal contacts in Germany or being a known home that the dog will get exposure - you take risks getting a pup from Germany - many breeders will send the puppy they deem "least likely suceed" to a foreign country.
> 
> ...


I know I am taking a risk importing a GS from Germany, but it seems WLGS there are better bred and better trained than those in the U.S. after watching some videos on the Internet. I am looking for a companion puppy, but I will train him basic commands. My previous SLGS was very loyal, but he was timid & developed hip problem at young age. That is why I want a healthy puppy physically and mentally. I read from this forum that the price of the puppy plus shipping charge is about the same as what I would pay to a U.S. breeder.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I brought over a pup in June - specifically because she was a of Xito Maineiche and I wanted another source to him that was Mink and Fero free...it is more expensive to get a pup from Germany when you add it all up...

Poor temperament is not limited to dogs born in the US...it is a by product of prioritizing for structure/color or what ever quality a breeding program - IMO - buying a companion pup from a random WL breeder in Europe is asking them to send you the last pick in their litter. The most confident, most stable pups in the litters will stay in the breeders circle of friends and club members.

Also, pups are bred for extreme drives in many kennels, just as showlines are bred for red color - other characteristics suffer...you really have a better shot of a stable solid companion puppy here in the US

Lee


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It doesn't sound like you need an extremely high drive dog. There are many breeders here that actually import breeding dogs from overseas from the same lines you will get in Germany. However, here you can develop a relationship with an excellent breeder who will be able to pick out a pup that is a perfect fit for you and your needs. You will also be able to go back to that breeder for advice and guidance in the future. This kind of partnership would be hard to develop with someone overseas. German Shepherds are complex dogs.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

wolfstraum, you GSD looks very nice. I want similar GS ***** .Where did you get it from?


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

robk said:


> It doesn't sound like you need an extremely high drive dog. There are many breeders here that actually import breeding dogs from overseas from the same lines you will get in Germany. However, here you can develop a relationship with an excellent breeder who will be able to pick out a pup that is a perfect fit for you and your needs. You will also be able to go back to that breeder for advice and guidance in the future. This kind of partnership would be hard to develop with someone overseas. German Shepherds are complex dogs.


I understand what you said. I just think German breeders breed better GS than those in the U.S. because of their experience. I am not looking for an extremely high drive, but high drive though GS puppy. I used to take my GSD at 6 a.m. every morning to exercise/play for an hour.
What is the price range of a WLGS puppy if I get it from a reputable U.S. breeder?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Richiegs said:


> I understand what you said. I just think German breeders breed better GS than those in the U.S. because of their experience. I am not looking for an extremely high drive, but high drive though GS puppy. I used to take my GSD at 6 a.m. every morning to exercise/play for an hour.
> What is the price range of a WLGS puppy if I get it from a reputable U.S. breeder?


$1000 and up...

I don't think its very fair to condemn all US breeders just because you had one dog with issues. _PLENTY_ of dogs from Germany and elsewhere in Europe have issues too...

You can find healthy stable working line GSDs from a breeder here in the US. Most working line dogs here in US have alot (if not all) of imported blood


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

"I brought over a pup in June - specifically because she was a of Xito Maineiche and I wanted another source to him that was Mink and Fero free...it is more expensive to get a pup from Germany when you add it all up..."

Q) How much money did you end up paying to bring a GS puppy from Germany into U.S.?

"Poor temperament is not limited to dogs born in the US...it is a by product of prioritizing for structure/color or what ever quality a breeding program - IMO - buying a companion pup from a random WL breeder in Europe is asking them to send you the last pick in their litter. The most confident, most stable pups in the litters will stay in the breeders circle of friends and club members."

Q) I understand. I thought GS dogs with poor temperament are excluded and not used for breeding. Where does poor temperament from a puppy come from?

"Also, pups are bred for extreme drives in many kennels, just as showlines are bred for red color - other characteristics suffer...you really have a better shot of a stable solid companion puppy here in the US"

Q) Do you mean a WLGS in the U.S. instead of SLGS?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Richiegs said:


> wolfstraum, you GSD looks very nice. I want similar GS ***** .Where did you get it from?



The avatar is Csabre v Wolfstraum, who is from my C litter - daughter of Xito Maineiche and my HOT Sch3/IPO3 female Kyra...and she is dam of my I litter (2 years old) and my K litter (26 days old)...bred and born here in the USA...

Lee


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Maybe if you fill in the blanks a bit about yourself you would get some more concrete suggestions. Where are you from, what goals do you have in mind for the pup, what prior experience do you have regarding training and socializing? That type of thing.
We have been buying dogs for ourselves, police departments and clients for years. We have imported quite a few dogs from Europe,(Belgium, Germany, Czech, France). Most of the imports were young adults or titled dogs, depending on the situation and we went through people we know and can rely on their assessment of the dog. When someone (including us) is looking for a puppy we generally steer them to one of the many reputable and knowledgeable breeders right here in the states. There are quite a few kennels in the USA producing really nice dogs(see above ). Many of those breeders are experienced trainers, or are retired from training and have handlers for their dogs, but know the strengths and weaknesses of their stock. They also have long term relationships with people in Europe that can and will get them a good dog when they ask for it. These breeders also import stock and get the very best they can. When they have a reputation as a conscientious breeder, the sellers in Europe will sell them nice dogs since they are probably going to want to buy again and the fact that they produce good dogs is in their favor. A single puppy buyer getting a dog from Europe isn't likely to be sold the best there is. Also, it's not common practice for dogs sold out of Europe to have any type of written contract, so once you've got the dog, there is usually no recourse if you have a problem.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

bocron said:


> Maybe if you fill in the blanks a bit about yourself you would get some more concrete suggestions. Where are you from, what goals do you have in mind for the pup, what prior experience do you have regarding training and socializing? That type of thing.
> We have been buying dogs for ourselves, police departments and clients for years. We have imported quite a few dogs from Europe,(Belgium, Germany, Czech, France). Most of the imports were young adults or titled dogs, depending on the situation and we went through people we know and can rely on their assessment of the dog. When someone (including us) is looking for a puppy we generally steer them to one of the many reputable and knowledgeable breeders right here in the states. There are quite a few kennels in the USA producing really nice dogs(see above ). Many of those breeders are experienced trainers, or are retired from training and have handlers for their dogs, but know the strengths and weaknesses of their stock. They also have long term relationships with people in Europe that can and will get them a good dog when they ask for it. These breeders also import stock and get the very best they can. When they have a reputation as a conscientious breeder, the sellers in Europe will sell them nice dogs since they are probably going to want to buy again and the fact that they produce good dogs is in their favor. A single puppy buyer getting a dog from Europe isn't likely to be sold the best there is. Also, it's not common practice for dogs sold out of Europe to have any type of written contract, so once you've got the dog, there is usually no recourse if you have a problem.



Can you recommend me a few reputable WLGS breeders in the N.Y.,N.J. or CA?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

If you fill in the blanks, maybe people can refer you to certain breeders.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally I would be hesitant to considering importing without 1) a very good reason (like dog/bloodline not available here) and 2) a trusted personal contact. I've considered it myself but just don't have the contacts to get what I want without getting ripped off, though I nearly got a puppy from Rinus Bastiaansen in Belgium and would do so without hesitation, but he is in Belgium not Germany. Not sure why it has to be Germany anyway, most of the bloodlines are the same especially if you're looking for a companion type dog and not being real specific on temperament.

The reason you may think that US breeders breed more dogs with problems is because Germany is far more strict and nonchalant about what dogs they cull. It's not that less problems are bred but less are allowed to live once they are discovered. Certain breeders still cull dogs that are the wrong color or don't have the desirable type of coat. This has its pros and cons not really part of this discussion but I'm just offering this as something you should probably consider before saying that American breeders are "worse".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Richiegs said:


> I know I am taking a risk importing a GS from Germany, but it seems WLGS there are better bred and better trained than those in the U.S. after watching some videos on the Internet. I am looking for a companion puppy, but I will train him basic commands. My previous SLGS was very loyal, but he was timid & developed hip problem at young age. That is why I want a healthy puppy physically and mentally. I read from this forum that the price of the puppy plus shipping charge is about the same as what I would pay to a U.S. breeder.


Take it from somebody who grew up as a breeders daughter in Germany. 

The Americans have bought the most valuable dogs from Germany and brought them over. The most genetic value is found in the United States. 

You have some really nice breeders over here that learned from the best in Germany. These breeders are not talked about though. One of them is vom Haus Dreisprung, a personal friend of my family. He's imported some of the nicest dogs and he knows how to put them together. 

Personally, I'd buy from Wolfstraum and Blackthorn Kennels. Both are not far from NY (PA, VA Area). As for NY, NY is a wasteland when it comes up to German Shepherds but you have a couple of good breeders. One is Debbie Zappia, however her dogs are high drive dogs. Welcome To The official site of Debbie Zappia of ProFormance K-9's and Olgameister Kennel

As for importing, I know some good, reputable breeders in Germany that can be trusted, even though you've never met them. 
They are just local breeders, have good dogs but they don't play in the high leagues like some other kennels, however, they can be trusted and with importing I'd prefer somebody I can trust over anyone else. http://www.halsueberkopf.com/2011/11/working-line-german-shepherd-breeders.html


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Richiegs said:


> I know I am taking a risk importing a GS from Germany, but it seems WLGS there are better bred and better trained than those in the U.S. after watching some videos on the Internet. I am looking for a companion puppy, but I will train him basic commands. My previous SLGS was very loyal, but he was timid & developed hip problem at young age. That is why I want a healthy puppy physically and mentally. I read from this forum that the price of the puppy plus shipping charge is about the same as what I would pay to a U.S. breeder.


It all depends on your connections. My dogs are cheaper, including the shipping and picking them up, as what you'd pay for the same quality over here. But that is not the norm.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Richiegs said:


> "I brought over a pup in June - specifically because she was a of Xito Maineiche and I wanted another source to him that was Mink and Fero free...it is more expensive to get a pup from Germany when you add it all up..."
> 
> Q) How much money did you end up paying to bring a GS puppy from Germany into U.S.?


bottom line for a 650 E puppy was around $2800 when the dust settled....everyone forgets about fees, exchange rate upcharges at bank & CC, customers brokers, fees at arrival airport etc....these do add up! This puppy was purchased for the pure and simple reason that the combination of bloodlines fit into my program - Xito, the Wolfendobles, no mink or Fero (my other mother lines do carry Fero and Furious has Mink as well, and I will eventually have a puppy from her - so this is not a criticism of dogs carrying those lines - just a comment that I do have a family free of them!) from V structure, KKL parents and from a kennel with whom I have shared communications with for several years.




> "Poor temperament is not limited to dogs born in the US...it is a by product of prioritizing for structure/color or what ever quality a breeding program - IMO - buying a companion pup from a random WL breeder in Europe is asking them to send you the last pick in their litter. The most confident, most stable pups in the litters will stay in the breeders circle of friends and club members."
> 
> Q) I understand. I thought GS dogs with poor temperament are excluded and not used for breeding. Where does poor temperament from a puppy come from?


Nope - there are plenty of dogs with poor temperament bred !!!!!!!! Everyone decides on what risk factor they are willing to chance - no dog is perfect! This is where a knowledge of back massing and line breeding comes in...knowing what you are bringing forward potentially - and prioritizing your own breeding goals...hoping to get one superstar pup and not caring if 6 others are caca! Or hoping to achieve uniformity and 7 solid stable pups with good clear heads and able to function in any situtation



> "Also, pups are bred for extreme drives in many kennels, just as showlines are bred for red color - other characteristics suffer...you really have a better shot of a stable solid companion puppy here in the US"


see above answer....and I think you can develop a relationship with a breeder here so that they are going to be more careful in choosing a puppy for your needs...I know I juggle my choices in my litters to get what I think will work the best for my new buyers....and I do not try to breed for such extreme drive that pups are too busy or hectic to settle as house dogs....a couple of the most gorgeous high drive pups I have produced are in pet homes! Ikon for one is on this board...

The key is to develop a relationship wiht a breeder here - and talk to people who KNOW them - who have a relationship with them, not just a random pet owner who bought a pup and has only exchanged holiday cards with them for 3 years!




> Q) Do you mean a WLGS in the U.S. instead of SLGS?


I think that there are a few WL breeders here with goals similar to my own....and a few SL breeders - but IMO - there are many SL breeders who do not breed balanced dogs, choosing to prioritize color/structure over stablity/temperament/nerve - have seen too many from too many kennels with my own eyes to recommend many of the big names...if you want a show line companion, please contact me via PM and I will give you a name or two that I know personally, and who has treated referrals from me very well with setting them up with a good stable companion.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Zeke-Therapy-Dog-TDI/114958491854785 

This dog is owned by good friends of mine - purchased after I talked to his breeder/kennel manager for them....he is getting some age on him, and he may not have been a good schutzhund/stud dog candidate - but wow - what a super family dog who is a good ambassador for the breed!


And there is a big big geographical distance between CA and NY/NJ!!!! LOL Are you an airline pilot?

Lee


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Personally I would be hesitant to considering importing without 1) a very good reason (like dog/bloodline not available here) and 2) a trusted personal contact. I've considered it myself but just don't have the contacts to get what I want without getting ripped off, though I nearly got a puppy from Rinus Bastiaansen in Belgium and would do so without hesitation, but he is in Belgium not Germany. Not sure why it has to be Germany anyway, most of the bloodlines are the same especially if you're looking for a companion type dog and not being real specific on temperament.
> 
> The reason you may think that US breeders breed more dogs with problems is because Germany is far more strict and nonchalant about what dogs they cull. It's not that less problems are bred but less are allowed to live once they are discovered. Certain breeders still cull dogs that are the wrong color or don't have the desirable type of coat. This has its pros and cons not really part of this discussion but I'm just offering this as something you should probably consider before saying that American breeders are "worse".


Thanks for your information. I am surprised that some breeders cull dogs that have the wrong color or type of coat. This is really a wrong thing to do!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

No offense, but you are the type of person a semi-shady breeder would definitely take advantage of in Germany. No warranties, so they don't really care what they are sending you since you're just looking for a com[panion dog (not like you'll be trashing them to working dog people).

Not very knowledgable on the breed....take snippets of things on an internet forum you've kind of twisted.....I'm reading some of the stuff you're saying and I'm not really sure where you're getting it...considering I read a probably pathetic number of threads a weeks on here....you're definitely getting your own thing from these threads. I can't ever recall a whole thread talking about how much better dogs are in Germany than in the US. In fact..they usually go the way this one is. 

Stick to the US.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

what is the difference between someone who has a relationship with their breeder and someone who exchanges Christmas cards-really I am curious cause you own the dog so you should be able to form an opinion shouldn't you


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> No offense, but you are the type of person a semi-shady breeder would definitely take advantage of in Germany. No warranties, so they don't really care what they are sending you since you're just looking for a com[panion dog (not like you'll be trashing them to working dog people).
> 
> Not very knowledgable on the breed....take snippets of things on an internet forum you've kind of twisted.....I'm reading some of the stuff you're saying and I'm not really sure where you're getting it...considering I read a probably pathetic number of threads a weeks on here....you're definitely getting your own thing from these threads. I can't ever recall a whole thread talking about how much better dogs are in Germany than in the US. In fact..they usually go the way this one is.
> 
> Stick to the US.


Because of my bad experience with U.S. SLGS, I am just wondering if German WL breeders produce better quality puppies. As far as my knowledge of the breed, I had a GS for almost 13 years and I trained him, exercised with him etc... I also read books about GS. I may not be a GSD expert, but I certainly have some basic knowledge about GS.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Richiegs said:


> Because of my bad experience with U.S. SLGS, I am just wondering if German WL breeders produce better quality puppies. As far as my knowledge of the breed, I had a GS for almost 13 years and I trained him, exercised with him etc... I also read books about GS. I may not be a GSD expert, but I certainly have some basic knowledge about GS.


From what I can gather you had ONE bad experience with a GSD you purchased here. That hardly qualifies as a true assessment. Please listen carefully to what really experienced people are telling you here - yes, the Germans have been breeding GSD's for a long time. That doesn't mean that over the years greed and opportunistic practices haven't taken hold. As a relatively naive customer they will see you coming a mile away. And sell you whatever they feel like selling you, unless you check with someone who knows what they are doing first. Some people have imported dogs only to find out that it wasn't the one they thought they were getting, or had serious health problems or defects. Unless I had an absolutely rock solid relationship with a German breeder I knew to be ethical, I absolutely wouldn't go that route. As someone pointed out, puppies do not come with any kind of guarantee there, and if it turned out you were dissatisfied with what you had received, there would be no sending it back and no way to recoup your investment. 

BTW getting a WLGSD doesn't mean you won't have ANY problems - they are susceptible to diseases and temperament issues as are the showlines. 
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks for all your comments.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Richiegs said:


> Because of my bad experience with U.S. SLGS, I am just wondering if German WL breeders produce better quality puppies. As far as my knowledge of the breed, I had a GS for almost 13 years and I trained him, exercised with him etc... I also read books about GS. I may not be a GSD expert, but I certainly have some basic knowledge about GS.


You can get good dogs in the USA and in Germany. But be aware that if you live in Germany you probably will more readily keep the best pups/dogs cause you won't be able to locate them once they leave the country. And there's no way you can meet the parent dogs or even the breeder so you have to have a high level of trust.

There ARE good breeders in the USA but the responsiblity is on us to do all the necessary research for what that even means http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html <--- click that

Truthfully, at this point I have realized that the money I pay for a puppy isn't really for the puppy at all. Because no matter what there will be a bit of a crap shoot with the final adult dog because of the genetics involved for any breeding. That said, if I do the best I can to get the BEST breeder I can afford, with the breeder who's program and goals I support for the breed........................ then the $$$$$$ I give is for their breeding program with the hopes I get the puppy I want from that program.

*So I do my best to find that breeder, support their breeding goals with my money, and love the puppy I get knowing I'm helping them.*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Richiegs said:


> Because of my bad experience with U.S. SLGS, I am just wondering if German WL breeders produce better quality puppies. As far as my knowledge of the breed, I had a GS for almost 13 years and I trained him, exercised with him etc... I also read books about GS. I may not be a GSD expert, but I certainly have some basic knowledge about GS.


Are you basing this on one experience/one dog? If so, I would say it is not worth the risk, not if you don't have a particular reason for looking at importing a dog and a reputable contact that can help you obtain the dog you want. Are you talking about an American show line or a west German show line?

How do you define the word "quality"? That will make a difference.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Are you basing this on one experience/one dog? If so, I would say it is not worth the risk, not if you don't have a particular reason for looking at importing a dog and a reputable contact that can help you obtain the dog you want. Are you talking about an American show line or a west German show line?
> 
> How do you define the word "quality"? That will make a difference.


Quality means smart, obedient, loyal, brave, high drive, calm, healthy, HD free... 
I know it does not worth the risk unless I know a reputable breeder in Germany.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You can get good dogs in the USA and in Germany. But be aware that if you live in Germany you probably will more readily keep the best pups/dogs cause you won't be able to locate them once they leave the country. And there's no way you can meet the parent dogs or even the breeder so you have to have a high level of trust.
> 
> There ARE good breeders in the USA but the responsiblity is on us to do all the necessary research for what that even means http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html <--- click that
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments. Your GS puppy looks nice.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Richiegs said:


> Quality means smart, obedient, loyal, brave, high drive, calm, healthy, HD free...


I have probably 35 breeders' websites bookmarked that have all of those things. 

Look for a breeder in your area that gets OFA on all of their breeding stock and shows/titles them in some venue like Schutzhund, obedience, rally, etc.... Ask them about the pedigrees and what most of the dogs from those lines are like.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Richiegs said:


> Quality means smart, obedient, loyal, brave, high drive, calm, healthy, HD free...
> I know it does not worth the risk unless I know a reputable breeder in Germany.


Richie, I guarantee you, if you had a high drive dog, what I consider high drive, as a new handler, relatively new to the breed, you couldn't handle that dog. 

People talk about high drive, not having a clue what high drive really is. What it means and how to handle it. 

What do you think is a high drive dog? Why do you want a high drive dog?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Why on earth would you want "high drive" unless you are planning to channel and use that drive? 

Go out to a local SchH club and meet some "high drive" dogs...


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

My high drive girl says that you do not want anything like her as a house pet unless you want to rip out your hair every day.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Richie, I guarantee you, if you had a high drive dog, what I consider high drive, as a new handler, relatively new to the breed, you couldn't handle that dog.
> 
> People talk about high drive, not having a clue what high drive really is. What it means and how to handle it.
> 
> What do you think is a high drive dog? Why do you want a high drive dog?


Let me give you an example. I played with my dog and asked him to search for a tennis ball,key or something in the house. If he could not find the object in a short period of time, he would give up looking for it. A high drive dog should not give up easily and is happy to complete the job that I am asking. Are we talking about the same thing?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There are lots of types of drive, whether the dog has an on/off switch, what is the threshold level for the drive, actual drive vs. energy vs hyperactivity, etc....

I know a dog that is basically neurotic with ball drive and fixation on objects but has very little defense drive and will stand there staring at a ball while someone is threatening him or beating up his owner.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Why on earth would you want "high drive" unless you are planning to channel and use that drive?
> 
> Go out to a local SchH club and meet some "high drive" dogs...


If can spend a lot of time outdoor running or playing with my dog, I don't see why a GSD with high drive is not preferable to me


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Richiegs said:


> Let me give you an example. I played with my dog and asked him to search for a tennis ball,key or something in the house. If he could not find the object in a short period of time, he would give up looking for it. A high drive dog should not give up easily and is happy to complete the job that I am asking. Are we talking about the same thing?


Here's a thread about drive. Rerun states something very true. "People confuse energy with drive." 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/163307-lets-talk-about-drive.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does it still have to be a dog from Germany? My Pan (the dog in my avatar picture) is a working line from mostly west German working lines but he was bred and born here in the USA. His breeder has an upcoming litter that should have very solid, stable, happy-go-lucky sort of dogs that will be active and trainable for all sorts of things. My dog was a great puppy, very easy. No nerves, no timid, very confident but not overly pushy, not overly defensive. Great with other dogs, happy to great new people but still deferring to me as the owner. Right now I am training him for Schutzhund, flyball, and dock diving and will probably start him in agility this coming summer. I also show him and he is never intimidated by the chaotic show atmosphere. He earned his CGC a few weeks ago and we didn't even train for it. His sire is the same as the upcoming litter and I've also met the dam of the upcoming litter. The breeders are very knowledgeable and can match you with the dog that's right for you without scamming you or sending you the puppy that no one else wants. If you want more info let me know.

Anyway there's tons of options out there but I just don't think you have to go to Germany to get a half-decent pup.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's a few better threads regarding drive. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...7-so-you-think-you-want-high-drive-puppy.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ging-drive-focus-temperament-suitability.html


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Richi, today I was told that migh high drive dog is a liability. I'm doing SAR with my dogs. The kind of drive my new bitch has is what is looked for, what everybody talks about. Now it is said that she's got "too much" drive and that she's a liability because she could bite a child that has a ball in it's hands. 

I've seen her around toddlers. My friend trusted her toddler to be around my new dog. She is great with Kids and she wasn't anywhere near as crazy as she is when an adult has a ball in his hands. 

She flipped through the air, crashed into a 5ft. wire fence because my team mate simply didn't expect her to be that fast. She made a Salto in the air just to get to that ball. If you are not fast enough, she'll get your hand or arm if you put a little resistence on the prey object her grip gets stronger and she won't out. (at least not yet for everybody, for me it's almost reliable). 

If she thinks that you've got something in your hands and your hands move fast, she might try to get it even if it's not there. 
She learns superfast. So fast that it's amazing. However, she will ramble in her crate, will even take it apart if another dog is out there, playing with you and she has to stay put. 

She is so highly driven that I was told that my dog is a liability for SAR. It's not true. She's not. Not for me. She'd be a liability for somebody who couldn't handle it. 

Being active, outdoors, running, playing with your dog, you don't need a high drive dog. You need an active dog with a moderate drive for a normal person. That is more than enough. 
Trust me. The kind of drive my bitch has is what I consider high drive. You don't need that. You can get the same pleasure out of a normal, average German Shepherd. The average German Shepherd is what MANY MANY MANY Pet People consider high drive anyways... 

But a true high drive dog, while they can live in a family, they come with it's advantages. Some can handle it, some can't.

And then, the person said "As a police dog she could do som real damage." and that she's a hard dog. 
My other bitch is a much harder dog, has a high drive too but is nowhere near as fast as she is. She's not necesarilly harder than my other dogs but when she's in drive... it doesn't matter what stands in her way, she'll go through it. Probably even through a window if she had to. These dogs are bred for a specific purpose.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Does it still have to be a dog from Germany? My Pan (the dog in my avatar picture) is a working line from mostly west German working lines but he was bred and born here in the USA. His breeder has an upcoming litter that should have very solid, stable, happy-go-lucky sort of dogs that will be active and trainable for all sorts of things. My dog was a great puppy, very easy. No nerves, no timid, very confident but not overly pushy, not overly defensive. Great with other dogs, happy to great new people but still deferring to me as the owner. Right now I am training him for Schutzhund, flyball, and dock diving and will probably start him in agility this coming summer. I also show him and he is never intimidated by the chaotic show atmosphere. He earned his CGC a few weeks ago and we didn't even train for it. His sire is the same as the upcoming litter and I've also met the dam of the upcoming litter. The breeders are very knowledgeable and can match you with the dog that's right for you without scamming you or sending you the puppy that no one else wants. If you want more info let me know.
> 
> Anyway there's tons of options out there but I just don't think you have to go to Germany to get a half-decent pup.


Does the breeder have a web site that I can check it out?


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Richi, today I was told that migh high drive dog is a liability. I'm doing SAR with my dogs. The kind of drive my new bitch has is what is looked for, what everybody talks about. Now it is said that she's got "too much" drive and that she's a liability because she could bite a child that has a ball in it's hands.
> 
> I've seen her around toddlers. My friend trusted her toddler to be around my new dog. She is great with Kids and she wasn't anywhere near as crazy as she is when an adult has a ball in his hands.
> 
> ...


You are probably correct that a moderate drive GS is more suitable to me. Thanks


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Richiegs said:


> You are probably correct that a moderate drive GS is more suitable to me. Thanks


It's more than enough for the average owner that is looking for a companion dog. It's what a lot of pet people consider a high drive dog anyways. With a reputable working line breeder you should get a solid working dog, that matches all your needs and that can do everything you want him to do.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> Here's a thread about drive. Rerun states something very true. "People confuse energy with drive."
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-
> topics/163307-lets-talk-about-drive.html


Thanks for your info. My previous dog had a lot of energy, and never seemed to get tired. Yet I don't think he was a high drive GSD at all.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Richiegs said:


> You are probably correct that a moderate drive GS is more suitable to me. Thanks


Believe me, good idea.

I got one who knocked out his entire front row of incisors on a tree, came back with blood pouring out of his mouth dropped the ball and started prancing for me to throw it again. He is presently nursing a broken toe and being very frustrated and hard to live with because I am not throwing balls for him. I have bone spurs on my shins from the dog and more than once bloody fingers from "oops" nicks.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> It's more than enough for the average owner that is looking for a companion dog. It's what a lot of pet people consider a high drive dog anyways. With a reputable working line breeder you should get a solid working dog, that matches all your needs and that can do everything you want him to do.


Thanks


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I sent you a PM.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Believe me, good idea.
> 
> I got one who knocked out his entire front row of incisors on a tree, came back with blood pouring out of his mouth dropped the ball and started prancing for me to throw it again. He is presently nursing a broken toe and being very frustrated and hard to live with because I am not throwing balls for him. I have bone spurs on my shins from the dog and more than once bloody fingers from "oops" nicks.


Yeah, it's funny how everybody is talking "High Drive" and how much it's needed and once they get to meet one dog that is exceptional to the crowd and really high drive, all of a sudden, it's a liability because there could be a kid with a ball and the dog could get the kid instead of the ball... makes me want to smash my head against a wall... 

A lot of people talk drive, but not everybody understands let alone can handle it. 

A moderately driven dog, what is considered an average working dog can easily do anything you want him to do. 

If you are interested in doing some Schutzhund, you can compete on a local level, you can do obedience, agility, Therapy dog work, RH Sport, dock jumping... anything you want... an average working dog is not a bad working dog just because they are not considered "High Drive". 

The diversity is what makes this breed excell at everything and anything.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

;2319644 said:


> Believe me, good idea.
> 
> I got one who knocked out his entire front row of incisors on a tree, came back with blood pouring out of his mouth dropped the ball and started prancing for me to throw it again. He is presently nursing a broken toe and being very frustrated and hard to live with because I am not throwing balls for him. I have bone spurs on my shins from the dog and more than once bloody fingers from "oops" nicks.


What a nice GS puppy!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, it's funny how everybody is talking "High Drive" and how much it's needed and once they get to meet one dog that is exceptional to the crowd and really high drive, all of a sudden, it's a liability because there could be a kid with a ball and the dog could get the kid instead of the ball... makes me want to smash my head against a wall...
> 
> A lot of people talk drive, but not everybody understands let alone can handle it.
> 
> ...



This is exactly what almost happend to us at Thanksgiving. We were in the yard and my GSD was running around playing with some other dogs and kids were out side milling about....Then a parent brought out a football. He tossed the ball to his 6 year old who was able to catch it and throw it back to his dad. By the time the ball reached his dad, Ruger had Stopped playing with the other dogs, had zeroed in on the Foot ball and was flying through the air lunging at the ball. I heard his Teeth snap together inches from the man's hands as he tried to dodge the oncoming fury. it was like all in slow motion to me as I reacted and ran across the yard. I had to put him away for about half an hour until they stopped playing ball. The funny thing was he was the only dog there that was remotely interested in the football. Everyone there was like geez, whats his problem.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, that is why Schutzhund is the perfect sport for the dogs. They get to live out their drive and needs and you and the dog learns how to control it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is why so much obedience training is in order when you have a dog like this.

Grim [the dog who dashed out his front teeth and has the broken toe] was working a cadaver problem set up near a lake. Somebody threw this little red and white ball in the lake on a string. Grim brought it back for him and also broke his fishing line (he got hooked) Nice...talk about profuse apologies... Then when he got back on shore he caught the odor of his training aid and was working it on 3 legs with a fishook in his butt. That day was when I got much more serious about the emergency down.

I also had to eliminate water bottles as a possible toy the day I was looking at maps on a search and I heard barking...he had backed a big burly fireman up against a tree in a perfect bark and hold wanting that bottle when I said he would not bite, just wanted his water bottle he threw it at him and I felt pretty bad about that.

Both these things were the first year after I got him. Had to do a lot of work about him grabbing toys from me before I wanted him too, and controlling that ......but that kind of thing is why a lot, I think, wind up in shelters. 

Honestly, I love these dogs but the dog I get as a pet and a companion will be a LOT more mellow. Probably still a working lines dog but with lower drives.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Hunt drive is a different component of drive - when people say HIGH DRIVE - they are talking about the ball/prey drive in most cases....Hunt drive is HARD HARD HARD to come by! Ask any SAR person! Not all GSDs, even working lines had it....my Pike daughter had insane hunt drive - she stayed for a few months with a friend who had an Eick Berger Hockberg daughter - the Eick daughter had very moderate drives for ball, tug, track and little hunt at all when he compared them after living with them for 4 months.

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's the whole package that is not easy to come by. Sometimes you get awesome dogs and then the breeders haven't really socialized them in the early times. That is what I've noticed. Especially those old breeders. The dogs are stable but have never been inside a house, never walked up stairs, never seen slick floors. 
The dogs bounce right back and learn fast and do it anyways but you shouldn't have to do it and that's what I've been weeding through lately. 
They've got police prospects and wonder why the police skips the dog even though it's a die-hard rock solid dog. They should know how it works. If you give a dog to the police to be tested the dog should have seen stairs at least once in his life time.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

jocoyn said:


> I also had to eliminate water bottles as a possible toy the day I was looking at maps on a search and I heard barking...he had backed a big burly fireman up against a tree in a perfect bark and hold wanting that bottle when I said he would not bite, just wanted his water bottle he threw it at him and I felt pretty bad about that.


:rofl: OMG that is so funny!!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

robk said:


> It doesn't sound like you need an extremely high drive dog. There are many breeders here that actually import breeding dogs from overseas from the same lines you will get in Germany. However, here you can develop a relationship with an excellent breeder who will be able to pick out a pup that is a perfect fit for you and your needs. You will also be able to go back to that breeder for advice and guidance in the future. This kind of partnership would be hard to develop with someone overseas. German Shepherds are complex dogs.


Perfectly stated :thumbup:


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> It's the whole package that is not easy to come by. Sometimes you get awesome dogs and then the breeders haven't really socialized them in the early times. That is what I've noticed. Especially those old breeders. The dogs are stable but have never been inside a house, never walked up stairs, never seen slick floors.
> The dogs bounce right back and learn fast and do it anyways but you shouldn't have to do it and that's what I've been weeding through lately.
> They've got police prospects and wonder why the police skips the dog even though it's a die-hard rock solid dog. They should know how it works. If you give a dog to the police to be tested the dog should have seen stairs at least once in his life time.


Just for my curiosity, I read an article recently saying that German police stops using GS as police dogs in favor of Malinois . Do you know the reasons why they did that?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Richiegs said:


> Just for my curiosity, I read an article recently saying that German police stops using GS as police dogs in favor of Malinois . Do you know the reasons why they did that?


Yeah. You've got to take every article with a grain of salt. 

One department says "We don't use the GSD because he's not hard enough anymore." and another will say "Heck no, we don't use Mals because they are too nervy."

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Both dogs are excellent working dogs.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

In the past not sure about now Canadians (police) were using Mals due to health reasons-they believed mals are healthier


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Give it another 10 years (if it even takes that long) and the Mal has the same issues. The popularity is on the rise, BYB's popping up... especially with the high news coverage the Mal got recently.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

bottom line - mals are cheaper!!!!!!!!!! talk to K9 officers here - a good green GSD is probably 2 to 3 times the money than a mal is....have heard the same problem overseas!

Lee


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

wolfstraum said:


> bottom line - mals are cheaper!!!!!!!!!! talk to K9 officers here - a good green GSD is probably 2 to 3 times the money than a mal is....have heard the same problem overseas!
> 
> Lee


Why are they cheaper?

Unless you have a friend with a time traveling Delorean, you won't find Malinois 2 or 3 times less money than a comparable GSD. 

Occam's Razor answer:

The Malinois suits the needs of police better than the GSD thus they are more popular with police.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Mrs.K said:


> Give it another 10 years (if it even takes that long) and the Mal has the same issues.


The height of GSD popularity was the 1920'. Do you think that the GSDs had all of those same issues in 1930 or 1940? Why will it only take 10 years for the Malinois to have the same issues?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Fast said:


> The height of GSD popularity was the 1920'. Do you think that the GSDs had all of those same issues in 1930 or 1940? Why will it only take 10 years for the Malinois to have the same issues?


Because for some reason we've become much better at destroying pretty much anything and everything in the name of "bettering" the breed.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Fast said:


> Why are they cheaper?
> 
> Unless you have a friend with a time traveling Delorean, you won't find Malinois 2 or 3 times less money than a comparable GSD.
> 
> ...




Have quite a few LE friends - this is what I have been told regarding their departments buying green dogs - Mal's are cheaper. Bred in Holland with no paperwork, imported en masse by brokers - Lichtlighter in IN or IL for one, there is one here in PA that a lot of local departments buy from - one officer was there - $2500 for a green mal, $5500 for a big black/red GSD from CR...this particular pair was maybe 3 years ago....

Know several NAPAWDA Master Trainers - some like Mals, some don't...

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Unless you have a friend with a time traveling Delorean, you won't find Malinois 2 or 3 times less money than a comparable GSD.


Don't know. The Mal Pup I got was 200 Euro. Unregistered litter though which is in the world of Mals not all to uncommon. So far I'm very pleased with what I see and even with the shipping costs, he's still cheaper then any other dog I ever bought.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Here in NJ we are experiencing a different scenario. Mals at 14 months to 20 months are running between 6,000 and 7500 dollars. But here's where I agree with Fast, its not as much that the GSD is more expensive...its supply. Its getting increasingly hard to get good strong GSD for LE. This elevates the price. The Mal right now is more often is a better equipped dog(physically and mentally) to do police work. Obviously, in not all cases, but if you calculate the number of Mals and the number of GS, and you will find the percentage of GS that can do industrial work is miniscule compared to the Mals....and this is SAD:headbang:, a result of defective breeding on the part of GS breeders.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I told my dad, if he got back into breeding his GSD's ... by simply breeding his dogs, the way he did back then and selling them to LE...he could probably retire after 5 years and live happily ever after... 

He really knows how to breed that type of dog.
Also, it's amazing how the prices rise for LE... man, I got my bitch for a fraction of that and she is LE material. Which is a steal. Paid a 180 euros for shipping, if I sold her for 6000-7000 dollars, I'd make some good profit off of that.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Very few LE I know use females tho....they want males....

Dogs with training - either breed - are more expensive..

And Cliff - that is what I hear all the time....GSDs who can do the work - who are NOT Prey monsters but that have some civil/social aggression are HARD to find....

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, I know. That makes it even harder. The really good ones are hard to come by because they usually go into sport. And most sportsmen want males too. If you look at the Bundessieger pruefung how many males and females compete, it shows a clear picture.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Mrs.K said:


> Don't know. The Mal Pup I got was 200 Euro. Unregistered litter though which is in the world of Mals not all to uncommon. So far I'm very pleased with what I see and even with the shipping costs, he's still cheaper then any other dog I ever bought.


I said a COMPARABLE dog. How much is a GSD with no papers worth? 

But I think you made my point for me though. You bought a Malinois pup without papers for about $300. That is much more than you would spend for a GSD without papers. So the Malinois is more expensive than the GSD in this case.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

wolfstraum said:


> Have quite a few LE friends - this is what I have been told regarding their departments buying green dogs - Mal's are cheaper. Bred in Holland with no paperwork, imported en masse by brokers - Lichtlighter in IN or IL for one, there is one here in PA that a lot of local departments buy from - one officer was there - $2500 for a green mal, $5500 for a big black/red GSD from CR...this particular pair was maybe 3 years ago....




Look at what you are comparing. A Malinois, imported in a group of dogs. If it's imported in a group package it is most likely a lower quality dog. You also had no superlatives for that dog so you further confirm that this is not a high quality dog. Then you comape that dog to "a big black and red dog" with papers. Of course the big pretty dog with papers is worth more. 

Also most the dogs coming from Holland are not Malinois. They are malinois-x. Calling them Malinois is like calling a Shilo a GSD.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, I know. That makes it even harder. The really good ones are hard to come by because they usually go into sport. And most sportsmen want males too. If you look at the Bundessieger pruefung how many males and females compete, it shows a clear picture.


That's only the GSD picture though. In the DMC Championat (Malinois BSP) there has been a female or two on the podium for the last decade or so.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

What is LE?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Richiegs said:


> What is LE?


LE=Law Enforcement


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