# Is it time for a shock collar? Which one?



## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Hello new friends,

I have recently been encountering a problem with my 7 month old GSD (Wolf). He is a pretty well behaved dog, has some formal training and basic obedience down pretty well. I have one of those pointy collars on him to help him not to pull on the leash, as well as correct him if he barks at stuff he shouldn't or if he is being bad in whatever way. 

Anyway, he has really started reaching the point where he doesn't seem to mind it anymore. If he see's something and takes off and I start pulling back he just keeps on pulling with all his might. Furthermore me grabbing the collar and pulling for correction when he's being bad doesn't seem to do anything.

There is a huge hill at my appartment and another guy with a 1 year old GSD and I always let our dogs play up on it. They chase eachother around and burn some energy. 

Yesturday I became the thing I hate. The thing I always get SUPER annoyed at others for. Wolf and the other gsd (Trinity) were playing when suddenly wolf noticed another dog on the edge with her owner. He darted down after it. I shouted at wolf to "STOP" which has ALWAYS worked before, but this time it didn't. He ran up to the dog and got all in it's face. He didn't bite it, and it didn't bite him. I was there about 1 second after wolf was there and I immediatly put him in on his back for ignoring me and held him there. (no, it wasn't as violent as it sounds. I just flipped him over and held him there in submissive pose.) The owner was super nice, but I kept appologizing and she said, "It's fine no big deal at all!" I just told her, "It IS a big deal. I shouldn't have him off the leash if he ignores me like that. even though this is the first (and LAST) time, It is incredibly irrespobsible of me. This will not happen again." 

sorry for the long story but that is the background lol

He is a well behaved dog but that one incident was more than I ever wanted to happen. I don't want to always keep a leash on, however, so I'm wondering if you guys have any experience using a shock collar? One that if he ignored me I could press to give him a correction? I figure worse case scenario after 2 or 3 times being shocked he would be _very _obedient if he was given a command. Bare in mind, I mostly do possitive reinforcment (training wise) so this would really be the first thing that would be punishment. I put him on his back sometimes but I don't hit him ever. 

So yeah. Shock collars. do they work? Which one is best? I've noticed that a lot of professional dog trainers (including the police force) all use them, I figure they can't be that bad!

Thoughts???



p.s. While I'm figuring this out I'm obvously not allowing wolf off leash unless we are inside or in a fenced area.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In my opinion, it's time for a prong collar and a long line. Next time he does that you light up his world with that prong and do NOT say a word while you are doing it. It needs to be about HIS action, not your reaction. When he comes back to you, you can praise him for coming back to you. 

One good correction is worth more than 100 nagging ones.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Thank you Jaxon!! He actually is wearing a prong collar. Those are the metal collars with pieces of metal jutting in that tighten if pulled on? He has one of those collars on now. He just get's so dang stubborn he igores it sometimes. I think he is just too used to it.


Also, I hope none of you get the wrong idea about how I treat him. This thread sounds kinda harsh but I love him to pieces. He gets more love than any dog should haha. He's my best bud, but I would rather show a little tough love and to help him and protect him then let him develope bad behaviors.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Then you should check the fit, the size and the strength of your correction.

I do not recommend an e-collar for this application. If your timing is off or you correct while your dog is reacting, you can make it much worse.

I also highly advise you look up behavior modification techniques and ways to engage your dog. 

This is not a one thing kind of solution.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

"Anyway, he has really started reaching the point where he doesn't seem to mind it anymore. If he see's something and takes off and I start pulling back he just keeps on pulling with all his might. Furthermore me grabbing the collar and pulling for correction when he's being bad doesn't seem to do anything."

This is not the correct way to use a prong to deliver corrections. 

I would advise getting a good trainer to help you train the dog. 

And yes, you are risking with the mis-use of a prong collar and an e-collar developing superstitious reactions, where both these tools actually re-enforce aggressive behaviors. You need to use these tools correctly and wisely. Get help from a good trainer.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Yeah it looks like it's time for a trainer. Also, you said "this is not the correct way." ...What is the correct way?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

This is a 7 MONTH old dog. Essentially a child. A dog of that age is not going to have the level of training or life experience, or be able to exhibit self control in all situations, to be perfect all of the time. Correcting him for "being bad" is only fair IF he fully understands how to be good and isn't placed in a situation that is simply beyond his training and maturity level. Dogs generally do not choose to be "bad". They choose what they find rewarding. It is the owner's job to train the dog so that being "good" is rewarding, and then to make sure that the dog is not put into a situation that it just can't handle yet due to lack of training and lack of maturity. I have no problems correcting a dog if it is truly choosing disobedience. I don't agree with using corrections as a primary means of training, nor the attitude that a dog doing something other than what the handler wants equates to the dog being "bad". That isn't usually the case. Nine times out of 10, the dog simply doesn't know what the handler wants or, in the case of excitable young dogs, simply doesn't yet have the self control and maturity to resist temptation. More training, not more corrections, are what is needed...and the two shouldn't be the same thing.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Thanks, I actually knew that! Poor choice of word on my part saying "bad." I absolutly use more positive than negative, and I understand when the difference. Only a handful of times has he directly disobeyed (like running and ignoring me telling him to stop/no). The only other time he gets a tug on the collar is when he is barking when he shouldn't be or if he is ignoring a "Drop it" command. He knows what Quiet and Drop it mean but sometimes he just wants to bark or has something he thinks is too awesome to give up in his mouth. I do the trading up game but sometimes he just needs me to correct him before he'll drop something. Also bare in mind this is just a small (mb 2%) of the interactions I have with him are corrective because he is being stubborn or defiant. He is a male after all, sometimes tries to get a little dominate

Other than that, I don't mean "Bad" as I think it came accross. Thanks for noticing that and the advice!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I just flipped him over and held him there in submissive pose.) The owner was super nice, but I kept appologizing and she said, "It's fine no big deal at all!" I just told her, "It IS a big deal. I shouldn't have him off the leash if he ignores me like that. even though this is the first (and LAST) time, It is incredibly irrespobsible of me. This will not happen again."


yes, and remember this is *not* the fault of your puppy. 
I have a 7 month old pup, and no way would I expect him to come to me with that type of distraction. 
I haven't even put a prong on my pup yet, much less thought about using electric....and yes I DO use electric, not against it whatsoever, but not for a young puppy ever.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> yes, and remember this is *not* the fault of your puppy.
> I have a 7 month old pup, and no way would I expect him to come to me with that type of distraction.
> I haven't even put a prong on my pup yet, much less thought about using electric....and yes I DO use electric, not against it whatsoever, but not for a young puppy ever.


 
Ok so at what age would it be appropriate to start using the electric?

I'm almost scared to use it at all now because I wouldn't want to mess up by poor timing on its use!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

when you are clear on your training methods and know what you are doing...they aren't something to place on the dog and just nick away. There should be some foundation training with the collar with the help of an experienced trainer. Get your pup into something constructive and build up that engagement and bond. 
I am in the same position, need to do the same as my pup needs to know I AM the most exciting 'thing' in his world. Remember the age of your puppy, and don't worry about rushing through your toolbox.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't think its so much a certain age, as the clear on your training thats most important. Here's some stuff you can look at to show you how it can be started and how to introduce it: 

Dobbs Training Libraries: Obedience


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well if E collars are being discussed:
How To...

Lou is a member here and is pretty much available if you PM will! 

There is a lot to know first with an E collar before you can train your dog! 

I would have a look here also:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And of course I got more but that's a start!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The issue with the prong needs to be addressed first i would think rather than going on to more powerful methods.

As it is the dog is desensitized to a prong collar. So that says the collar was being used wrongly in the first place. 

I know different collars can be used in many different ways but I presumed, a prong should be used as a correction collar and using it as a normal collar can cause damage the dogs throat.

Like every day walking with the dog driving away from the handler wearing a prong seems to me a bit wrong.

The prong should be used to deliver a correction. A Short and sharp shot to say, 'no you are wrong there dog, and you will be corrected for that behavior.' Or as a self correction method like with the leash pressure techniques practiced by the likes of Tyler Muto.

So basically, I think the prong collar is being used wrong in this case and the real issue is the dog pulling on leash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE
Tyler muto on how to fit a prong 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U
Introducing a dog to prong and leash pressure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O75dyWITP1s
Introduction to the place command, using leash, prong, food reward.

There are loads more clips and advice on these techniques on his channel.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Thank you everyone for the links. I am about half way through reading the articles, and they are very helpful! I will continue to read and learn. 

Hope everyone is having a good day!

I have contacted a trainer in my area (in addition to reading the articles I kinda wanted to speak to a trainer as well) and Will have a meeting with him next week. In the mean time I am not planning on using an e-collar.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Ryan, super nice to hear someone saying, "Yeah, think I will find a good trainer." Music to my ears. With the right trainer, the investment is a no-brainer with years of return. Now is the time too. You are demonstrating responsible and smart dog handling right there.

My comment about the prong is exactly what MadLab said. Dog and you should not be pulling on that collar. It is a correction collar and some dogs need to be remind of that. But before you get into that, find the right trainer, one that knows the protection breeds, can read individual dogs, designs a comprehensive training plan and understands operant conditioning and how to use positive corrections as one element of training including the prong first and then maybe the electronic collar down the line.

Best to you.


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