# Looking for specific bloodlines



## PSG (Jan 30, 2010)

I am interested in finding a breeder or available GSD with any of these bloodlines in the pedigree. The more of them or any combination, the better. Seeking a young female or puppy.
Westruper Land
Bauerhoffen
Fleisherheim 
Wittfeld
Lindenhalle
Stoffelblick
Ill-Aue
Kirschental

Thanks very much!
PennyG


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Show and working combo?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

That is quite a mish mosh of working and show lines. You can definitely find pedigrees that carry the working lines listed, and pedigrees that carry the show lines listed, but most breeders of those two very different types don't cross lines much. There aren't many show/work combo breedings or kennels out there in the first place, and finding one with that particular mix of working lines crossed to show lines will probably be very difficult, if not impossible.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: PennyGI am interested in finding a breeder or available GSD with any of these bloodlines in the pedigree. The more of them or any combination, the better. Seeking a young female or puppy.
> Westruper Land
> Bauerhoffen
> Fleisherheim
> ...


Penny, what made you choose those bloodlines? What are your plans for the puppy?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have Wittfeld, Stoffelblick and Lindenhalle, but they definitely are NOT combined with the rest.







I think you will be hard pressed to find a breeder that does this combination.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Are you looking at these bloodlines for a female to breed using the semen you have frozen from your recently deceased dog?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Those are across the board. Even if you narrow down to just the show lines that's still quite a range.


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## PSG (Jan 30, 2010)

Yes, those are the lines of my deceased male. His breeder was active in the Schutzhund club and the sire was an imported SCH III. His lineage was the Lindenhall, Wittfeld and Stoffelblick. The dam was from imported stock and was the Fleischerheim/Kirschental/Bauernhoffen. I don't care if all the bloodlines are represented. The male I lost was truly a dog of a lifetime, so I want to use whatever I kind that is similar. I could post a photo of him if that would help as his physical type and expression are also what I am seeking, but I don't know how to do that. Thanks for the information. I am not an indiscriminate breeder, I have bred horses for the Olympic type disciplines for 30 years and was also a licensed trainer at the racetrack, so I am very interested in doing this right. I also have quite a few people who knew and appreciated Normie that would love a puppy, and they would only go to very good homes. The female will have a home for life with me on a 42 acre horsefarm and a Border collie for a pal. 
Thanks,
PennyG


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:The dam was from imported stock and was the Fleischerheim/Kirschental/Bauernhoffen.


Fleischerheim and Bauernhoffen are kennels here in the USA. Bauernhoffen was well known for their solid black dogs, many of which were from American Show lines.


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## PSG (Jan 30, 2010)

Ok, I see what you are saying, I'm just repeating what I was told. It looks like her grandsire/granddam on the top of the damline was imported - Vopo Vom Kirschental and Bianca Vom Christinen Brunnen. Her bottom damline is the Bauernhoffen and Scutari (which is listed as (UKG). 

My primary interest is to find a female that has the same traits, type and character of the male I lost. I am a true novice with GSD bloodlines, but I am quite educated in and have been a dedicated student of Thoroughbred and many warmblood lines (equine). I have a strong understanding of the importance of bloodlines and matching them up as well as good individuals. 

I am more interested in working lines than show lines. My GSD had a strong desire to work and high drive, super intelligent and loyal. He was very protective and territorial without aggression towards people. He was friendly, kind and great with kids. His manners were impeccable and he was very easy to train, but he had a strong personality and was quite active. I could take him anywhere and he was very well behaved and focused on me. He was a large dog, 120 lbs at his maturity and 100 lbs at 11 years old, always hard and fit, very alert, watchful and serious/intense about "his" property and people. I've never encountered such an intelligent, dignified and noble animal or one so dedicated to taking care of me every second. 

I don't expect to "clone" or replace him, I just want to pursue those same qualities via use of similar bloodlines. I hope that makes sense. I've had many GSD's and was raised next door to a family that bred and trained them in CDX and tracking, etc. - played with them as a child. So I have an avid appreciation of the breed. 

Thanks for the help!
PennyG


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

With all due respect, it sounds like you know enough to be dangerous, as the saying goes.







120 lbs is not a correct German shepherd size, for one. Also, having a SchHIII sire is really meaningless by itself. What about your deceased dog's dam? And of your dog himself? You say he had great temperament but have you had him evaluated at a schutzhund club or trained him in the working disciplines? Have his hips and elbows ever been xrayed to be sure he wasn't just good at hiding pain? We are always very quick to compliment and build up our dogs but what were his failings? All dogs have them and the mark of a good breeder is one who knows why a dog should be bred and why a dog should NOT be bred, and every dog has some of each. Also, if you want to pick up a truly good brood bitch, they are very expensive and you cannot rely on shiny titles past her name alone. You must watch her being worked, talk to her trainer/handler, find out for certain if the title is well deserved or if they eked by. Even dogs that do well in titling may not be sound breeding prospects and it is usually during the TRAINING toward titling that an honest handler discovers these.

Just because you find a dog of these lines does not mean they will combine well. You could end up with similar lines but different prepotency of certain dogs which bring out different characteristics that might not be anything of what you are looking for. For a novice to jump into breeding with a desire for a very specific trait might be a little much and you might be disappointed.

If I may suggest, find breeders with the lines that are in your deceased boy's pedigree and contact them for a thorough list of qualities you are looking for in a dog, your lifestyle, your goals, anything you can think of. A good breeder will be honest with you in whether they may produce what you are looking for and may be able to point you in a better direction if not. Maybe the super-experienced breeders can be of greater assistance. You never know, you might be blown away with surprise and joy with the pup you receive.









Good luck in your search and in whatever path you take!


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## PSG (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm not looking for a Schutzhund prospect. I am strictly interested in breeding for myself. I understand what you are saying and appreciate your concerns. With all due respect, I have no doubt my dog is worthy of siring a litter. I doubt I would breed but once and I intend to be quite discriminating about choosing the female as far as fitting my lifestyle and interests. Yes, I could be very disappointed, but I am not looking for approval or endorsement, I'm strictly seeking what works for me. No puppy will go to any home that is not approved (and anyone who deals with me regarding my young horses will tell you I'm quite strict) and I am fine with keeping more than one. I am attempting to stack the deck by researching the bloodlines and meeting individuals firsthand and don't mind advice. However, I'm not asking for judgement or approval, just looking for certain lines to start my search. Your suggestion regarding finding breeders is exactly what I am attempting to do. Since you don't know me and you didn't have the privilege of knowing Norman, I don't think you know enough about us to make a judgement. He was truly amazing (and perfectly sound until the last few months, OFA'd parents) and I intend to pursue this. 
Respectfully,
PennyG


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

OFA'd parents mean absolutely nothing unless the dog in question was also hip certified. Breeders can tell you the OFA Excellent parents that produced a majority of severely dysplastic progeny. The GSD world is not much like the horse world. You can breed your horse and get one horse, you can breed your GSD and get 12 more. You're also not just breeding this one litter for yourself, but potentially breeding more litters by virtue of your produced pups having pups of their own. This is an overall not very healthy breed with many temperament issues and it is a sad fact that some of these issues are perpetuated by "just one litters" from people who think the world of their dogs but do not bother to get their dogs thoroughly proven and honestly evaluated by objective parties.

I am not judging you nor your dog. There is no reason to judge you and your dog should have been judged by you and also by objective parties with no vested interest. You simply stated you wanted to do things the right way and that you are a novice. It's up to you if you truly want to do things the right way or dive in blindly hoping your gamble in Genetics Roulette pays off.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

here you go.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/breeders.html

You will have to find a reputable breeder who agrees with your assessment of your boy and who is willing to cooperate with your plan.

Check back and feel free to ask opinions on specific breeders.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Unfortunately, the original Bauernhoffen Kennel is no longer. Mrs. Bauernhoffen died several years ago. Some "breeder(s)" have a few of her dogs - but to find a good representation of what she bred is very difficult. Like so many of the "old" lines, they have been diluted to the point that the dogs carrying those names today are not the same "type" of dog from the original kennel.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I understand wanting to produce another dog like him but there is so much variation in these lines that combining them (or even only two or three) could produce just about anything. Maybe pick one or two to focus on? There are a few breeders in North America that are breeding strictly Kirschental dogs. Fleischereim is more of a broker so even that name doesn't really represent a specific bloodline or type of temperament. I don't know the working lines you listed but I'm sure others here will...


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## PSG (Jan 30, 2010)

Thank you. I realize I won't reproduce him, and breeding is a gamble. However, I would like to find the right female that carries some of his working lines and give it a go. ALL of the puppies will go to people who are not breeders and will spay/neuter, very good homes or stay with me. The female is not being sought as an end to a means, which is why I wish to find one that has the characteristics that suit our farm life and she will also be a part of the family. And if it doesn't work out with the frozen I have, so be it, I'll have a good female to enjoy with some similarities regardless. So maybe I'll find some of the sirelines in a female - Westruper Land, Lindenhalle, Mink Vom Haus Wittfeld, Stoffelblick, Korbes-Fichte, Ill-Aue. He was special enough for me to try. Thanks again.
PennyG


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Good luck with your search. I once had that one in a million dog, his name was Luther and he was a *** rescue. All I knew was that he was a DDR - by the look of him, not much chance he was anything else. 

After he died, I did a lot of research and found a breeding that I thought would have similar qualities to what I adored about Luther. Courage, loyalty, sweetness, independence and crazy ball drive. I picked a puppy based on his PAT tests - his name is Otto and he's curled up in a chair behind me. Perfect pup, not Luther but very much like him, even has the same sense of humor.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Penny G I just sent you a PM


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

My dog has a bit of the Kirschental in his pedigree (Xarus and Xissie)


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

Also, V Cardi, V Wessie, V Quista (i have no idea what the "V" is for.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: PennyGi'm in central Alabama, have a small horse farm and a variety of dogs and cats as well. My heart belongs to German Shepherds and I've always had one. I lost my best friend yesterday at 11. He had lost his mobility and was in pain. I am really devastated. I have frozen semen and will be searching for the right girl. He is all working lines, sire was Sch III import. Godspeed Norman.
> PennyG
> 
> My primary interest is to find a female that has the same traits, type and character of the male I lost.
> ...


I am sorry for your loss. I do think that emotions are playing a role in your decision making process at the moment. Even though you deny it, I do think a part of you wants him back.

I suggest you watch some schutzhund trials and dog shows for the next year or so. Get to know some of the dogs that you like off the field, and their off field temperament. Then ask if their owner knows of any progeny that is looking very similar in type and temperament. That is going to give you a much, much higher probability of getting the dog you're eventually going to be happy with.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Ocean, I think you are looking too much behind and not enough forward. In the first place the deceased dog was made up of dogs with many diiferent lines and subsequently strong traits associated with those lines. Also, factor in that a litter of eight will have 5 different personalities in the litter,(unless they are too inbred), of which your specific male only had one. To try to duplicate what he was may be an act of futility except for traits that are environmentally enhanced as you may be a constant in this equation. 
I think it is far better to get your self a good sound German Shepherd form good functional lines and you will find you will mold him/her into something special again. JMO


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I have a question...why are you not just looking for a dog from the same bloodline? I just think it is doing an injustice to the breed to take frozen semen from an unproven dog, get a female to breed, and produce a bunch of puppies. Good homes or not....there are A LOT of GSD's out there that need homes already, and to produce an entire litter just so you can get a POSSIBLE dog that might be a little bit like your dog?

Personally, I think that you would have much better luck finding a male with a personality just like him that has a PROVEN breeding record for producing good puppies, and then buy one from a breeding that a breeder does.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean you breed "Olympic type" horses? Because just because you can breed a few dressage horses than can go 3rd level or a jumper than can jump 4' is a bit misleading to throw the word "Olympic" in there unless you ARE producing horses that are competing AT that level.


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## Bauernhoffen (Feb 11, 2010)

PSG said:


> I am interested in finding a breeder or available GSD with any of these bloodlines in the pedigree. The more of them or any combination, the better. Seeking a young female or puppy.
> Westruper Land
> Bauerhoffen
> Fleisherheim
> ...


I have over 15 years and 20+ litters experience breeding from the original Bauernhoffen bloodline. Most of my clients are previous Bauernhoffen owners. I am in Athens, Georgia and can be reached at [email protected](dot)com.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Are they 100% Bauernhoffen of have they been outcrossed to another line?


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## Bauernhoffen (Feb 11, 2010)

Dr. Lewie said:


> Are they 100% Bauernhoffen of have they been outcrossed to another line?


My entire stock is from dogs and stud services I purchased from Mrs. Bauer and dogs I've bred from them. Proudly 100.000% Bauernhoffen. I also have lots of memorabilia that her family gave me: records, photos, awards; even the giant airline crate that that Scutari's Ellie and Exquisite's litter flew from the UK in.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

It's good to know that those lines are still around and have not been diluted. Do you have any direct descendants from her Odin?


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## Bauernhoffen (Feb 11, 2010)

Doc said:


> Do you have any direct descendants from her Odin?


Kind of a trick question isn't it? 

Two of my current studs are brothers, Bernardus and Fischer. They were born almost 5 years apart. I purchased their sire, Tocko, from Mrs. Bauer a year before her passing when he was 4. He is an Aaron/Only son. Their dam, Jever, was sired by Marzen, an Oz/Krispi Kreme son (and Neumann's Jim grandson). I purchased Marzen from her as a pup in 1997. Jever's maternal grandsire was Fax, a Lothario/Tia Maria son.
In the first ten generations of Bernardus and Fischer's pedigree Odin makes 24 appearances. He appears as far back as their 14th generation.
Worth noting too, Tocko sired Fischer just before he turned 10. Fischer is now only 25 months of age. Considering his grandsire, Aaron, was born in 1992, Fischer may still be producing Bauernhoffen dogs past 2015.
Another note about Odin: part of the stuff I "inherited" was a case of envelopes bearing the image of him she used in her Dog World ads.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Are the dogs "still the best in black"? And I assume the females are from the Bauernhoffen bloodlines as well? 

I wasn't trying to trick you about Odin. I was just curious if your dogs went back to him. I understand he was an outstanding dog in many ways.


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## Bauernhoffen (Feb 11, 2010)

Doc said:


> I assume the females are from the Bauernhoffen bloodlines as well?


As previously stated-100.000% Bauernhoffen. 
My Bauernhoffens come in bi-color, solid black and very dark black and red. In fact, two of my bitches look a lot like your Black Magic's Bella, at least in the face.


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## PSG (Jan 30, 2010)

Sorry to have ruffled some feathers with my interests. As far as my horses and breeding/GSD Elsa -- I have bred for the Olympic-type disciplines for 30 years. Unfortunately, you obviously do not have a grasp of the equine terminology. That simply defines the disciplines we are breeding for as in dressage and jumping (which can include eventing, hunters and jumpers) instead of Western Pleasure or gaited -- not intended to insinuate they are achieving Olympic level. It's an accepted term so get over yourself. My babies have done well including FEI level dressage. I can also assure you I am quite knowledgable about horse breeding from every aspect and have hands on experience in all of them, including being licensed as a trainer on the track and have started 300+ young horses. 

I have had German Shepherds all of my life and know what I like and want without having someone else tell me if a dog is good or not. I realize you are quite specialized in your interests but I have observed GSD's on many websites with similar bloodlines in the same pedigree that I have sought. I have narrowed my search somewhat and whether I choose to breed or not is certainly my business. I can assure you no puppy will be without the best of homes should I choose that direction. My interest in more in the older GSD bloodlines and type, with a sound body and work ethic. 

I have rescued all of my life, spayed and neutered, so I've certainly done my part in that and still am -- I currently have about 30 animals here. I don't care for the condescending attitude of some of you but appreciate the positive responses from others. We don't all follow the same path or have the same interests. My animals receive the best of care and love every day. 
Cheers!
PennyG


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## Bama4us (Oct 24, 2009)

I'm not sure I could have been more happier with a pup that came from those bloodlines, or one straight out of Germany, than I am with the pup I have now. Bear is my first GSD, but he is quite a character. A great personality and very smart. I don't think I could have found a better pup. But like others have stated, even a litter mate of your dog could have been a complete opposite of what you had. Good luck on your quest.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

PennyG, you might want to consider bitches 9+mos old to get a better idea that the bitch you acquire is maturing into what you're seeking.

Certainly PennyG wants Norton back. Who wouldn't? However, that doesn't mean she's simply trying to replicate him. People who have lost an adult child have found solace & comfort in that child's children, ie their grandchildren. Granted this involves canines rather than humans, but it's not terribly different. Nor is it inherently wrong. Nor is it doomed to failure.



> Good homes or not....there are A LOT of GSD's out there that need homes already, and to produce an entire litter just so you can get a POSSIBLE dog that might be a little bit like your dog?


Please give that advice to everyone breeding until there are no more homeless GS. In one way or another everyone breeds for their own gratification. Those who approve of some reasons, (ie acclaim, glory, sports) but not others, should acquire their pups from the breedings they approve of. They should also understand their criteria is not universally shared & never will be.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

PSG, Be of good cheer and be not discouraged...It was obvious to me that you had a good knowledge of animals in general. It is understandable that you should want to have another dog with similar traits as your beloved. The condensencion(sp) that you get on this forum from some drives me crazy also. Especially when it comes from them that have little experience about what they preach. But this is a great board as are other boards and I would advise that you send pm's to people who seem to have a grasp of what you are seeking and maybe you will hit the jackpot(smile). Good Luck!!


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