# 15 Minute Sit/Stay -



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

We are working on our 4th week in OB classes. One of the things we have to master is a 15 minute sit/stay. Hondo is 6.5 months, and the trainer feels he should be able to do this with practice. 

However, Hondo is so dang sensitive that now he won't eat unless I feed him by hand. He thinks he is in trouble and sulks about. I tried playing before / after. I tried his favorite treats. I tried grooming afterwards (he loves it). I even let him up on my bed to play (hubby lets him, I'm not a big fan of big dog in bed). I took him out for a long play in the pastures. I don't know what I'm going to do...


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

A 15 minute sit/stay seems VERY long to me for a puppy...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

15 minutes...wow. what type of class are you in? why do they want 15 minutes?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm not sure how a 15 minute sit stay and not eating go hand in hand with one another? Are you trying to say that because you are practicing sit stays for that long he is depressed at home??

My first reaction on the eating issue is that you feed him, let the bowl stay down for 15 minutes and then take it up if he doesn't eat. He's got to be a big boy. Highly doubtful that he is going to starve himself.

Have you tried feeding him in his crate? Some nervous or sensitive dogs do better eating in their "safe place."

ETA: I also agree that 15 minutes sounds a bit extreme. Is this a beginning class? In my last intermediate class I think 6 minutes was the longest we had to practice and 3 minutes was the actual test (or something like that).


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Err ... 15 minutes? AKC competition dogs do 5 minutes stay at the most, SchH 10 minutes. 6.5 months pup in OB class doing 15? ...

I am not sure how his eating habits relates to the stay but I got to say 15 minutes sit stay for a 6.5 months old pup is crazy. Ike is the same age and I'm only doing 5 seconds ...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That is long, we did 30 minute down stays (I think 15 minutes sitting is longer though). 

Anyway, Hondo sees the stay as punitive?

I feed my dogs during a stay - not their meals but treats. Good stay, treat, step back, ooh, good stay, treat, step back. For a 15 minute one, I might get a chair and sit next to him and pet him. I bet these are all things a trainer would say no to...but to me the relationship part is more important in getting the dog to comply over time than the obedience may be. Though I do like nice obedience and GSDs seem eager (sometimes neurotic) in trying to please. 

Sounds like you are working on the relationship part which I think is great.


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## Rio&Vytas (Mar 1, 2010)

I am a new member with an 8 month old GSD. I can confidently tell you that a 15 minute sit stay, would be too much for him. Sitting is not the most comfortable position. Now, a down stay for 15 minutes, ok. I have had *many* obedience challenges with Vytas and I agree that stay is a super valuable command, right up there with come. Beth


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I agree that a down/stay for 15 minutes is much more reasonable, but a 15 minute sit/stay is asking a lot IMHO of most dogs, especially a pup.

If your pup is refusing to eat because he is so stressed/upset over the training, than the training is much too harsh for your pup. You may not be directly being harsh (please don't misunderstand and think I'm saying you're being mean to him) but he is viewing the sit/stay for that length of time, and/or the corrections needed to attempt to keep him there for that length of time, as a punishment (now there's a runon sentence if ever there was one!).

In short, I think this is asking too much of the average puppy.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I can't tell ya'll how relieved I am to hear that you too think a 15 minute sit/stay is a bit too much for a young dog. I thought I was thinking with my heart strings instead of not allowing Hondo to benefit from this task. 

Hondo is a very sensitive boy. Going off his feed is his way of letting me know that he isn't happy. He'll eat when he gets hungry (he'll eat treats etc) but when he is off his feed, I won't feed him treats - and when I do, I'll use his kibble. When he is off feed, I pull it after 15 minutes and he doesn't get another chance. I feed him in his kennel in the morning, and he eats in living room in the evening. I can tell when he is off feed because he isn't feeling well, and when he is off feed when his feelings are hurt. 

The trainer did say that because he is still a puppy he would be allowed to move is hind end, as long as he didn't get up - like go from the puppy plop to a more comfortable position. I let him do that. He just isn't allowed to lay down -which is his favorite position - and he isn't allowed to get up. I can correct him by telling him "no-stay" and use the hand signal for stay. But the longer he stays - he'll begin to look away and hang his head. I avoid eye contact - and I even carried on a conversation with him using a soft voice to let him know that he wasn't in trouble. And afterwards, I got on the ground with him and loved on him telling him how wonderful he was - then I released him and let him run and play. But he still comes in the house, goes to the back door and wants out. I doesn't want any additional interaction with me (or the hubby). Which is what he does when his feelings are hurt. 

Thank ya'll very much for your posts! It has really helped. I will do what is best for Hondo- He is a great dog.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

my 3 are all taught 30 min sit and stay, if they want to lay down after awhile its fine, but the "stay' still is in effect,


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think Hondo would appreciate and do better with more play (with you) at this stage and less of that kind of obedience. Actually if I have Hondo I would just blow off the sit stay and down stay exercises all together for awhile. 

Ike is at his age and as long as he is happy and crazy and enthusiastic and wants to play with me, I really don't care about the other stuff. Sure, if he knows a thing or two it would be nice ... but I rather he be happy and not know squat than unhappy but can hold a 15 min stay. Just my view.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't think a 15 minute down-stay is unreasonable at his age, especially if he has a chewtoy or bone to occupy him and he can change position and get comfy but just can't move from that spot. Many people use tethers for that, so it's not even really a "stay" per se, where the dog is expected to comply on his own. But that's a really long time to expect a dog of any age to just sit there and do nothing. I know both of mine would lay down at some point during that time.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd talk to your instructor then and tell her that it's emotionally pushing his limits. If he's shutting down and not wanting to the the work, then that is a problem. It's an important exercise to know, but if the dog isn't ready, it's not ready. And to expect a stay THAT long in a beginning class is RIDICULOUS. Especially if there are young dogs in the class. She should understand that different dogs have different limits and there is really no point in pushing that much. The important thing, to me, is that they know how to do the command and are under control. 

I still think you should do classes--it will be a great way to bulid his confidence and doggie self-esteem and bond with you as well. But if your instructor isn't going to work with you, then maybe you should look into switching classes. Is it at a Club or just something idependant?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I just saw what Cassidy said. I agree there is a difference between just having the dog be stationary for 15 minutes (dinner time comes to mind--does he have to lay down while you are eating?) verses an at attention stay.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> I just saw what Cassidy said. I agree there is a difference between just having the dog be stationary for 15 minutes (dinner time comes to mind--does he have to lay down while you are eating?) verses an at attention stay.


I totally agree. I got the impression from the original post and followup that this pup is expected to sit/stay and remain focused on only the sit/stay and handler, and is not being permitted to do anything else. I do agree that it's one thing to teach a dog to lay in a particular area and occupy themselves for X amount of time, vs a dog being put in a particular position and being told to hold it for X amount of time.

When my dogs are in a "stationary" stay, they can lay down, roll to their other hip, chew on a bone or toy, even change directions if they want, so long as they don't actually get up and leave that area entirely. Whereas an attention stay (I like those terms so I'll stick with them for less confusion  ) they are expected to hold the position they are put in and remain there until they are released. I do not expect a 6 month old to remain for more than a few minutes in any kind of attention stay, but that's just my personal opinion.

My older dogs will hold a "stay" much longer, but I still think asking them to "sit" for 15 minutes straight and remain focused is asking a lot. Now a "down," sure.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I am using an independant trainer. Hondo is to sit/stay - if I were to give him a toy/chewy, he would lay down. We will do down/stay - I have no worries regarding that one. 

He is actually holding the sit/stay very well. I only have to correct him (no-stay, hand signal) maybe twice during the 15 minutes, as he attempts to lay down. After 5 minutes he might attempt to lay down, and I'll correct him. Then at 10 minutes (or so) I feel he has hit his wall. He'll attempt lay down - then get up when he is corrected. 

Since last Tuesday (class) we've only done it three times. I am supposed to be doing it every night. I will work him every night - but I haven't required for him to do the sit/stay every night.


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## tatiana (Feb 3, 2010)

Hmm, well I think a 15 minute SIT for a puppy is ridiculous and quite frankly, there are other lessons more valuable. We start training in a week and I sure hope the trainer doesn't ask this of us.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you want to do AKC obedience, do not allow them to change positions on their own. 

I would not do anything for 15 minutes at a time right now. 

However, the best dog I ever trained, was trained to do thirty minute down stays (just not at six months old). 

Joy is 8 months old, and if my instructor had the class doing that, I would simply tell her that I would rather not go that long for now. I would rather work up to five minutes. (It is only a 1 minute sit and a three minute down for a CD). 

Good luck.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> If you want to do AKC obedience, do not allow them to change positions on their own.
> 
> I would not do anything for 15 minutes at a time right now.
> 
> ...


Thanks - After hearing all of the replies, I've decided to only push him for 5 -8 minutes at this point. I'll speak to my instructor and let her know. I don't think we'll be able to graduate with out at 15 minute sit/stay - but that is only my assumption. I'll find out more once I speak to her. 

Although I did think that 15 minutes was excessive - I thought that it was standard. I want/need a well trained, socialized dog. But I don't want to push him further into anything he just isn't capable of doing with out mentally falling apart.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Graduate? Are you all going to stand there for 15 minutes of your class time while your dog does his sit/stay???

When we are doing obedience sits and downs, three minutes seems like forever. 

When we graduate (and everyone graduates that came to class in our training classes, unless it is a CGC or TDI test, then you must pass), our instructor usually lays out a rally type course, for puppies it inclueds a horizontal ladder, hoop, and tunnel, amongst exercises where you sit them, come front and finish, heel from one to another.

Our instructor usually allows us to determine whether our dogs are ready for the next level or if we want to repeat a class. This has pros and cons. The pros are that people have a sense of accomplishment and are more likely to continue training the dog. the cons are that lots of people do not realize their dog is not ready for the more advanced work. Having green dogs in an advanced class is hard on the dogs, the owners, and the other class members. 

I just decided to repeat basic with Joy because she is not yet walking the way I want her to on lead. Having a strong grounding in the basics makes the advanced work that much easier on everyone. 

So whether or not you graduate, if the pup is much younger than the other class memebers, it may make sense to repeat the basic class instead of pushing forward. 

If he seems bored waiting, then teach him some tricks and stationary exercises while you wait your turn. 

Remember your pup is a youngster, attention span is short, and there is no rush to get into stuff because you have to wait for things like jumping etc, anyway. they are only puppies for months, enjoy what little time there is. 

Training him is a great thing to do, as long as it is fun and plenty of praise, he should do great.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Is there a reason why your instructor wants a 15 minute sit? 

I agree with the others. Even 5 minutes is a long time for a 6 month old dog. If this exercise is causing your dog that much stress then I would do short sit/stays for now and then move on to much more fun exercises.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I really don't know why she is asking for a 15 minute sit/stay. My only other experiance with OB training is when the kids were going through 4/H. I didn't think to ask during class (last week) as I thought this was standard practice. 

We went through the proper procedures for 'stay' during class. When class was coming to an end, she gave us our home work. This was the 15 minute sit/stay. She mentioned that you would use it at the vet - or any other place your dog is nervous and you would need to make sure you have control of your dog. She stated you shouldn't use a prolonged 'down' in a place where your dog is nervous as when the dog is in the down position it will be in the submissive position and that could make the dog more nervous. 

I just didn't think to ask. I was thinking it would be difficult for my dog as he just likes to lay - he even does it in class. She stated I would find it more difficult - because my dog will lay down and take a nap. Even if there is a dog who is yapping - or if someone over corrects theirs and it yelps - Hondo just doesn't care. It never occurred to me that the 15 minute sit/stay would cause Hondo mental anguish - even though I'm not physically correcting him - just a stern "no-stay" while I give him the hand signal. 

I have class tomorrow - so I've decided tonight we'll go some place he likes and work - and do a short sit/stay. If he is good, I'll buy _*me*_ an ice cream....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Even if he isn't good, get him an ice cream too~its only fair...
That was always a stop after SchH training when Karlo was a younger pup, McD's and get him a baby cone, because I was so proud of him!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Based on the description you just gave as to why she wants it, I think that it should be sit or down and the dog can do what it wants. It sounds more like what we were talking about earlier--just doing something you want while you are doing a task--eating dinner, checking out at Petsmart, etc. If the dog prefers to down during long stays, he should be able to. And I still think it's too long for a focused stay in class. 

I take Elsa out to the bars. Don't worry--I don't get her drunk. She sits out on the patio with me. She's expected to lay or sit next to my chair (like your dog--she prefers the down) while I'm seated. She can easily do that for a couple hours with just the occasional shifting or moving around. But all I'm worried about is that she is behaving herself and is keeping quite and not causing a scene. I don't really care if she's chewing on her tennis ball, snoozing, staring at me, staring at the ant walking by, sniffing the stain on the conrete on the sidewalk. Whatever. As long as she's being good.

That is TOTALLY different to me that making her do a 2 hour obedience sit or down stay!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, we socialize to other dogs and take the dog to the vet for weigh-ins so that they are not crazy at the vets. We also teach SETTLE. The idea of my dog doing a 15 minute sit stay at the vet is, well, I never thought about it. 

Yes, while I am there if someone comes in, we will sit and I will tell mine to sit and sometimes to stay. 

Today's trip to the vet was a real trip, but maybe that should be in stories.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

ken k said:


> my 3 are all taught 30 min sit and stay, if they want to lay down after awhile its fine, but the "stay' still is in effect,


To me, that is NOT a sit/stay. That is a wait. A sit/stay shouldn't be longer than 10 minutes at the highest level of obedience. If you want to talk about down/stays or waits, that is another issue altogether.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

For a true "stay," the dog should not be changing positions on their own. Perhaps incorporate a "wait" to allow such things.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

We had training again last night. Everyone in the class stated they had difficulty keeping the dog at a 15 sit/stay. And apparently, that was what she wanted us to learn. She stated she didn't want us to expect our dogs to do more then they are capable of. Don't assume that you can take your dog with you to a place that can cause your dogs stress and expect them to behave as they should at home. Don't attempt to cross a busy street on a loose leash and assume your dog will remain sitting at your side when a loud vehicle passes. All dogs have a stress point, and as leaders we should not push them repeatedly to that point. If your dog stresses at a quiet 15 minute sit/stay in the middle of your living room - think what the dog is going through when you take them to a new place where there are too many distractions for the dog to handle. We need to learn the difference between a dog who is manipulative, and a dog who has hit their wall. 

It made sense to me, and taught me to recognize when Hondo is stressing and when he is being a puppy.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Very good point!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Good point for you instructor, but it did cause your dog a lot of stress for you trying it for a week...........was the "lesson" worth your dog's negative behavior?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

As nasty as it sounds, yes it was. This was upsetting to me as well as Hondo- so it is really burned into my head. If I ask Hondo to do something, and he starts struggling with it, I'll ask myself why instead of why not. 

There were three attempts made for the sit/stay. I'd much rather have learned this lesson then to have made a fatal mistake in the future.

Also, if our training continues after this class, I'll have a greater ability to make sure that I'm not putting stress on Hondo.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Lilie said:


> As nasty as it sounds, yes it was. This was upsetting to me as well as Hondo- so it is really burned into my head. If I ask Hondo to do something, and he starts struggling with it, I'll ask myself why instead of why not.
> 
> There were three attempts made for the sit/stay. I'd much rather have learned this lesson then to have made a fatal mistake in the future.
> 
> Also, if our training continues after this class, I'll have a greater ability to make sure that I'm not putting stress on Hondo.


:thumbup:


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

You sure it's not 15 "seconds"? At 6 months that's about all my puppies can handle.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Yes - it was 15 minutes. It was a lesson for handlers to learn regarding the stress level of our dogs. We weren't told of the 'hidden' lesson so we were more determined to make our dogs hit that wall in a safe enviroment. 

This week we practice a 15 down/stay. But we are only do push our dogs and look for that limit before it stresses out our dogs. However, most dogs are more comfortable with the down. Therefore, we are to look for when we feel they are getting close to hitting that wall. The length of the down, isn't as important as reading our dogs. But we are not to exceed 15 minutes.


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