# What do you think of this match?



## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Ando ethen and akeemi. She has a better line, would it better to line breed on orry for her and not bring Ando's line into the mix. The dogs are 180 in personality of each other.
Thanks


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Since neither dog is two years old yet, and no hip scores listed or titles either, when are you planning on doing this breeding and why?


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Well, ando is a personal protection dog trained at a k9 training school , akeemi did obedience training for two months.


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## Ravena (May 19, 2013)

Without knowing their medical background or hip scores, I second the other post - why do you want to breed them? One being a protection dog and the other receiving a bit of obedience training doesn't have anything to do with her question. 


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Akeemi can be a great family dog, she is good in agility. Ando is also a good dog but needs to be controlled and corrected. Why do family pets need to be show line, why not have great dogs that don't need tons of money spent for titles? I imported dogs, some folk can't afford that, why can't they have a great pet?


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Revena
What dogs do u have? Most police GSD don't even have papers, what is your issue? I don't know if I will breed but really, what is your issue with bettering the line that is healthy and smart? The show line has health issues, the working line is healthy and smart.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If you don't have titles or OFA certifications, you can't _prove _your dogs are healthy OR smart--at least not healthy enough and smart enough to breed (even though they make marvelous pets and serve your family's needs magnificently). You are just surmising that they likely are outstanding breeding candidates--and even if you are right, testing the capability of the dogs will let you know _how _healthy and smart as compared to other great dogs. Titles and certs are the way good breeders demonstrate the quality of their dogs -- earning titles and being judged against other dogs establishes the merit of your dog.

Think of dogs like a bell curve. Titles and health certs are the way of sorting out the dogs at the top of the curve -- a small number -- who are worth breeding to improve the breed. The vast majority fall in the middle (the fat part) of the curve--fine dogs as pets, but they should not be bred, as they will not improve the breed. A few fall at the low end of the curve and are so sickly or dangerous they don't even make good pets.

Your dog might fall at the top of the curve -- or not. Without testing its capabilities as compared to other well-bred dogs, in front of objective evaluators, who knows. Same goes for hips and health.

Aside from all this, the thing that I think is most important to ask is: are you willing to take responsibility of the lives you cause to be created, come what may? By this I mean, screen buyers carefully, and if it doesn't work out, take back the puppies, even after they are grown up? If five years from now, one of those pups grows up to get HD or worse, bites a kid, and the buyer doesn't want to deal with it, will you take it back? Or will you let the buyer dump it at a shelter, to die alone among strangers? It happens, even with "expensive" dogs--great breeders respond to the shelter's call by hopping in the car to go get one of "their" dogs from the shelter.


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Magwart,
What blood line do you have? Stupid breed stupid. You have zero dog but talk crap. I think a great import should be affordable for everyone. The smartest dog I ever met was at St. John police dept, no title. He was a czech and the best dog in our parish for 10 years. He had no title, he just did the work......what a looser.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

argo daisynina dvora said:


> Magwart,
> What blood line do you have? Stupid breed stupid. You have zero dog but talk crap. I think a great import should be affordable for everyone. The smartest dog I ever met was at St. John police dept, no title. He was a czech and the best dog in our parish for 10 years. He had no title, he just did the work......what a looser.


It doesn't matter what bloodline the other poster's dog is.
You are giving attitude to people that are offering you advice.

In my opinion, you don't know the breed well enough to be breeding. "the show line has the health issues, the working line is healthy and smart" - each line has good dogs and bad dogs, healthy dogs and unhealthy dogs. And, quite frankly, from your posts calling people stupid and losers I would not want to deal with you as my breeder.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

argo daisynina dvora said:


> Magwart,
> What blood line do you have? Stupid breed stupid. You have zero dog but talk crap. I think a great import should be affordable for everyone. The smartest dog I ever met was at St. John police dept, no title. He was a czech and the best dog in our parish for 10 years. He had no title, he just did the work......what a looser.


You shouldn't ask for opinions if you're not mature enough to handle critiques. 


Police dogs are working, they are proving themselves through their work. Our dogs aren't police dogs, but they still need to prove that they can do the work the breed was bred for. You prove this through titling. That is bettering the breed, not assuming the dog is health and assuming they can work. 

Just because your dogs' parents didn't have HD doesn't mean they don't. Just because your dogs' parents were capable workers does not mean they are.


There are tons of GSDs in this world, too many in some regards, they do _not _need mediocre breedings. They need the best we have to offer being bred if we are to continue improving the breed.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

*sigh* 

Since you're in Louisiana....it likely won't make a difference to you, but our state (yes, I'm a Louisianian too) had *92,000 dogs* euthanized in 2011. There were many, many purebred GSDs among them--it's one of the most common breeds we see in shelters here, after pit bulls. We have a huge oversupply of GSDs.

I actually deal on a daily basis with this oversupply -- the offspring of breeders who meant well but didn't do well by their dogs, the breeders who thought the world needs more BYB "nice family pet" GSDs. I am a rescuer. *smile*

Every one of those shelter GSDs was failed by some human, and there was no responsible breeder to step in and take them back. In rescue, we see the entire bell curve--bottom, middle, and top. We see dogs in with papers and breeder tattoos in the shelter, and they still end up homeless. We learn to take the genetic issues that _should not have been bred _very seriously -- as they become our problems.

I applaud knowledgeable, responsible, ethical, committed breeders who are spending time and money bettering the breed through careful pedigree selection, trialing and health certifications -- and I'm glad someone is doing it. The problem is it often feels like nearly _everyone _thinks their GSD is fabulous enough to breed....so dogs keep dying in Louisiana shelters.


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Mag wart
I live in Livingston Parish, no shelter and drop offs daily on the highway by my house. I have 5 dogs and 2 cats that were tossed out. I really don't think u or anyone can tell me about this issue. You fell bad, I take them in, flee drops, heart worm med and good food. Like really, come take these drop offs and bring them home. Step up, feed and ca re for these stray pets.


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## argo daisynina dvora (Oct 22, 2011)

Wow, if you live anywhere close I can bring the strays to you. I live on a highway, I can pick up a pet for you weekly. I have taken many in..have you?


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

argo daisynina dvora said:


> Wow, if you live anywhere close I can bring the strays to you. I live on a highway, I can pick up a pet for you weekly. I have taken many in..have you?


If you can pick up a dog weekly that someone has thrown away then why would you add to the problem with more puppies from parents that aren't proven? I'm confused. 


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## Ravena (May 19, 2013)

Talk about defensive. You posted on a public forum asking for advice, and when questions were asked, you start attacking people? Not only for their replies on your prospective breeding, but about whether they have adopted pets from shelters? Calm down.

My girl is "working line". So far she's great. But I have no plans to breed her - I haven't the experience with breeding (having only owned 2 and bred neither), nor does she have suitable lines in my opinion. Her parents were great dogs, hip scores were fab. Doesn't mean she's breeding quality.

And no, k9's aren't always papered, but in my experience, having lived with a k9 officer, and with friends in the local department, they do not go to backyard/1st time breeders for their dogs. My local department imports bite-trained malinois from Europe and gets their shepherds through military/LE specialised breeders. (Though admittedly that is just one large-city dpt, I'm sure others have differing policies).

Do a google search, or ebay, or whatever your preference. You will find dozens of "GSD" litters, a huge variety of backgrounds and prices. There is no shortage of GSD pups. Some, bred carefully and with good lines and titled dogs, will turn out great, some the parents should never have been bred.

If you want to get into breeding seriously, I would first adjust your attitude, as you will get far more pertinent and thorough questioning from those in the business. 

If you want to breed to 'supply those who can't afford imports with a good dog' then rethink - first you don't have to import to get a great GSD. Second, dogs are put down all the time that were bred with good intentions - you need more than this to be a responsible breeder.

You come across as someone who just wanted everyone to go "Aw, cute dogs! Bet they'd make cute puppies!". In which case I suggest you post in a less breed-centric forum. If you are breeding purely to make money and are not worried about where the pups will finally end up (bear in mind, I'm not accusing here), please, please don't breed your dogs.


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## Ravena (May 19, 2013)

Also: you have asked this question before, last year:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pregnancy-whelping-raising-litter/184132-blood-lines-dogs.html

It states there you have never bred dogs before. A litter of puppies is nothing like having your own single pup to raise - it is a huge amount of work and dedication. A proper breeder will take back a sick/ailing pup or one the new owners do not want/cannot handle, cover all vet bills that may arise from complications, etc. 

People gave you similar advice back then. Please, people are not trying to attack you. Just trying to ensure that pups do not end up in shelters unnecessarily.


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

argo daisynina dvora said:


> Magwart,
> What blood line do you have? Stupid breed stupid. You have zero dog but talk crap. I think a great import should be affordable for everyone. The smartest dog I ever met was at St. John police dept, no title. He was a czech and the best dog in our parish for 10 years. He had no title, he just did the work......what a looser.


Magwart offered you some excellent ADVICE. You know, that thing you ASKED for when you posted...oh yeah and OPINIONS..that other thing you asked for..

Don't get all butt-hurt because you're not liking what you're hearing. Folks are giving you their opinions, and I'm inclined to agree. You have NO way to know what type of dogs you are going to get from a breeding pair if you haven't done the work with the dogs to know what they are capable of. And you are not going to know the likelihood of good health and hips until you've done your due-diligence and waited an appropriate amount of time, either. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to breed for companion dogs, but those companion dogs should still be bred responsibly. You can't even accept critique and criticism in a mature manner, so I'm having a hard time believing you'd be a breeder people would want to work with. Breeding is a massive and EXPENSIVE responsibility. It's a decision/endeavor even seasoned GSD owners take YEARS to research, prepare, and consider..it's a decision not to be taken lightly.

If you loved this breed at all, or even dogs in general, you'd understand WHY it's so important to do the things folks are suggesting to you. Back-yard breeding, irresponsible breeding, uneducated and accidental breeding are not things looked upon too well on this forum- as these people LOVE the breed and want the best for the future of it. If you do, too, then quit with the defensive attitude crap and start being a bit more open to the advice you asked for to begin with.

I'm sure I'm wasting my time with this..but.. I don't appreciate anyone calling a respected member of this forum a 'loser'..or umm..'looser'..

you said it yourself, 'stupid breed stupid'..or something stupid...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> Akeemi can be a great family dog, she is good in agility. Ando is also a good dog but needs to be controlled and corrected. Why do family pets need to be show line, why not have great dogs that don't need tons of money spent for titles? I imported dogs, some folk can't afford that, why can't they have a great pet?


No need to get snarky from "either" side of the fence

There is nothing wrong with having a great pet, I think the majority of our dogs , whether working, titled, non titled, whatever, in the end are our "pets" as well.

I can't comment on the 'mix" because I am not that knowledgeable in that area. I do like your females pedigree tho. 

However, the big thing for me is, HEALTH and TEMPERAMENT, I want to see hip/elbow scores. 

If you want to produce excellent pets, why not get those health testings at the very least , done first. 

I can see this thread going down the tubes real fast, if one doesn't want to see it disappear, then lets stop the name calling and snarky remarks from BOTH sides.
Thanks


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## Malachi'sMama (Jun 10, 2013)

No problem, Diane. Couldn't help myself.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not sure what you meant by this " I imported dogs, some folk can't afford that, why can't they have a great pet?"

are you saying you feel you paid a lot of money , which is relative , and you want to get some of it back . Akeemi is USA born , with a Schradehaus dam .

what do you mean by "The dogs are 180 in personality of each other."

that can't be good !


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

argo daisynina dvora said:


> Magwart,
> What blood line do you have? Stupid breed stupid. You have zero dog but talk crap. I think a great import should be affordable for everyone. The smartest dog I ever met was at St. John police dept, no title. He was a czech and the best dog in our parish for 10 years. He had no title, he just did the work......what a looser.


Well you certainly got that part right that stupid breeds stupid  I wouldn't breed two unproven dogs especially as my first breeding pair. Take the time do your research, listen to the advice you've been given here and take it down a notch with the personal attacks if you want to be taken seriously 

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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You say the dogs are "180 opposite each other" - and "Akeemi can be a great family dog, she is good in agility"

I believe that only dogs who are outstanding in many ways should be bred....a sucessful breeding is one that the breeder strives to maintain and reach the perfect GSD as outlined and perceived as the GSD standard describes....(I hate the phrase "better the breed" - you have to start off with perfect to better anything, and too many dogs bred are far far far from perfect!).

The sucessful breeder and breeding brings together two dogs who resemble each other in positive character and physical attributes as closely as possible - what I call "complementary" qualities....and then the differences should be compensatory - where one dog has spread feet, the other has tight feet for example, where one has a very low threshold, the others is higher and more ideal - and you hope the pups get the more desireable qualities in the breeding....and there is the key....some will get mom's and some will get dad's good/bad qualities....but you should be able to predict by knowing the bloodlines what characteristics are dominant or prepotant......

Saying the dogs are totally opposite right off means they are not a good breeding pair! Even if they were hip rated, titled and koered - they still would not be a good breeding pair in my opinion....then to say the female is a good family dog??? That means she has many characteristics NOT to the standard, and how can you expect her to produce pups who have a more ideal GSD type? 


As others have observed, hundreds of thousands of unwanted "great family dogs" are euthanized every year, nearly a hundred thousand in your own state...kudos to you for taking in 5 strays - too bad the other 91, 995 did not get dropped off on your road too! Overpopulation is everyone's problem....our choices of what to do with our dogs is being regulated in some states due to the problems and expenses of unwanted pets...I have no problem with outstanding dogs being bred, but every breeding done by a good experienced breeder creates "great family pets" who have working ability as well.

If you just want to breed to make money - well then..... you have just added fuel to the flame of the people in rescue who feel NO one should breed because of those dogs and cats who are not wanted and killed by the millions in the US every year.

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

To the OP. Please, at the minimum, do the health testing on your dogs before breeding. Even pet people deserve sound and healthy dogs. This means waiting until your dogs are over 2. 

Personally I would not linebreed on Orry just based on the dogs I have trained with and seen. No attack on Orry himself. Just not a line I would linebreed on. I am also not sure I would take your female to Ando. I don't have time to go into depth in his pedigree, but just seeing Asko v.d. Lutter would make me leery. Asko can bring a lot of aggression, but sometimes not the nerves to back it up. This is just my opinion looking at the pedigrees. If you feel you must breed than find a male that compliments your females in both temperament and pedigree. 

To everyone else: you can draw more flies with honey than with vinegar. ADMIN


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Vinegar is great for cleaning though-totally off topic-but agree with what you said


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...and vinegar and baking soda-awesome


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

malachi's mom, no need to apologize , but thank you, my comments weren't directed at anyone specific


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Get both of your dog's hips and elbows done.....your dogs are old enough to get them certified by SV or OVC. That's a start.


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