# Purchased from BYB and have some questions



## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

I had a few things I just wanted to ask you guys. Hopefully the board can help.

We got our puppy from a BYB. I didn't even know what a BYB was until I spent some time on this board. My dog has AKC papers. My dog's sire came from a responsible breeder (decent lines, OFA'd), while his dam, came from another BYB (pet lines, no health tests)

1. My breeder told me my pup came from a litter of 12 pups. Is this even possible for GSDs? I saw pictures of all of the pups and met some of the other people who purchased them. I did not visit the kennel because I asked her to meet me half way (would have been an 8 hr drive for us). She also met another couple.

2. Is it possible to fake AKC papers? I have no reason to believe my breeder did this, just thinking outside of the box and being OCD 
My guy looks and acts purebred from what I can tell. But this is my first GSD and I had very little knowledge of pedigrees before this.

3. My breeder did provide an informational packet, health guarantee and followed up with us after our pup's first vet visit. She did not seem very knowledgable about the breed, but was very thorough when it came to the health of the dogs and her pups. She openly gave me her vet's number, whom I followed up with. They had nothing but nice things to say. I also have the pedigree of my dog and even downloaded the pedigrees of his sire and dam from the AKC.

4. I hunted down where the dam came from and spoke to that breeder. Very nice lady, but again, a BYB with little knowledge of the breed from what I can tell. I spoke to her vet too, and again, nothing but good things to say.

My pup has been extremely healthy and has not been ill one day. He is the proper weight/height. His tail curls up a bit when he's overly excited, but it's not like that all the time.

My question is, is there something I should look out for or be weary of? Does anything look fishy? I do not need perfect conformation, as he is just a pet. Anyway, here are some pictures


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## Magnolia (Jul 18, 2011)

:wub: I can't comment other than to say he's very handsome.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

If one of the parents is AKC, but the other is not, then there would be no way for her to get the pups registered. If the dam has AKC registration (since you said the sire is), then the pups can be registered, so long as the registration on both parents is unlimited. (Limited registration means puppies from the parents cannot be registered). 

What does it state in the health guarantee? Anything about hip or elbow displaysia?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

1. yes... big litter, but possible.

2. Post the pedigree. If no pedigree post the sire and dams name and/or AKC registration numbers.

Not too sure what you were asking with 3 and 4.

If that's your puppy in the pictures than he's definitely a purebred GSD... no question about it. How old is he?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mrudderman24 said:


> 1. My breeder told me my pup came from a litter of 12 pups. Is this even possible for GSDs?


I don't think it's common, but it is possible - I remember a breeder (might have been here or on another GSD board, can't recall), who had a litter of 12 pups not long ago. My first GSD, Sneaker, was from a litter of 10.


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

thanks Magnolia 

Konotashi, both parents are AKC registered. I just thought it was unusual that there were 12 pups in one litter. I will have to look at the contract for the specifics on the health gurantee.


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Here is the pedigree I saved from their website earlier this year. I also have the official one from the AKC, which is basically the same as below


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

There's nothing on the pedigree database, but both parents are definitely AKC registered.

You can look them up here if you'd like: http://www.akc.org/store/free/


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

OP, my dog is from a BYB breeder, no papers. She's from a little of 11. Her moms first litter had 5 pups in it. So its possible. litters range in size.

your boy is certainly PB. Patterned sable. 

I'm no good with pedigrees (yet) so i cant help you there.


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> 1. yes... big litter, but possible.
> 
> 2. Post the pedigree. If no pedigree post the sire and dams name and/or AKC registration numbers.
> 
> ...


Posted. He is 11 months old. Yes , that is him in the pictures. Good to know its not unsual to have a big litter. He looks more grown up in some of those first pics. He still has a little bit of the awkward/lanky look.

I just wanted to make sure he was purebred. His tail is usually down, with a slight hook. But when he is amped up, it curls. I posted another thread about that, and people said that is sometimes normal, as long as it isn't like that all the time?

I have no reason NOT to believe my breeder, but I wanted to get everyone's opinion on here once and for all


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My mother-in-law's GSD had 14 puppies, but she killed one. 

I wouldn't worry too much about whether the AKC papers are faked unless you're planning to breed or compete. I think you've learned enough to know you shouldn't breed. There are ways to fake AKC registration, but I honestly wouldn't worry much about it if I were you. 

Just love your dog. 




Edit: The dog killed the puppy, not my mother-in-law. I just realized that sentence sounded bad.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Don't worry... he's definitely purebred.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

mrudderman24 said:


> I had a few things I just wanted to ask you guys. Hopefully the board can help.
> 
> We got our puppy from a BYB. I didn't even know what a BYB was until I spent some time on this board. My dog has AKC papers. My dog's sire came from a responsible breeder (decent lines, OFA'd), while his dam, came from another BYB (pet lines, no health tests)
> 
> ...


The dog is beautiful. LOVE HIM. Who cares where he came from, if you like him? It sounds like you have a breeder who is starting out or not very experienced yet. Lucky you. A breeder with 4 or 5 more years of experience might not bother to put together a packet of information, follow up after the sale, spend as much time with you. 

There is more to breeding dogs than putting together two AKC GSDs, but the huge reason that people frown upon BYB is when they are putting dogs together with little thought, use their dogs without caring for them properly, are not considering health and temperament, and are pumping out more and more puppies. It sounds like your BYB is doing a lot of things right, maybe not everything, but definitely has a start. 

They may have been health screened, just not through the OFA, but that you would have to ask about. They may not be a BYB. They may be a hobby-breeder who are not everything that every member of the board requires of their breeders. 

But I do not think that any breeder CAN be all things to all the people on this board -- some come close. But if you are breeding for the future, holding dogs back, breeding only titled and health screened dogs, taking back dogs at any point of their lives, etc, etc, etc, then you probably have too many dogs in some people's opinion, and are, therefore a BYB. And there are always those who simply do not think anyone should breed. 

It sounds like the only complaint you have on your breeder is lack of knowledge. She may be working with a breeder such as the stud owner who may be mentoring her. Without new blood, new breeders, our breed will die out. Those breeding now will retire or die, and if no one is picking up the torch and going forward, that will be the end. 

And perfect is in heaven.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Your dog is stunning! Just love him up for the purebred GSD that he is...


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond, I GREATLY appreciate it. 

Oh and Selzer, thanks for that info. I admit, it was pretty crappy of me to raise the suspicions without any proof. I truly thank you for the insight though. That was a great read


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## mrudderman24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Emoore said:


> My mother-in-law's GSD had 14 puppies, but she killed one.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about whether the AKC papers are faked unless you're planning to breed or compete. I think you've learned enough to know you shouldn't breed. There are ways to fake AKC registration, but I honestly wouldn't worry much about it if I were you.
> 
> ...


Definitely won't be breeding. He is neutered too. LOL about the mother-in-law comment. I was thinking that at first :wild:


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

He's a German Shepherd Dog and health is a bit of a crapshoot.

Be proud of him!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

He is a handsome fella!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> My mother-in-law's GSD had 14 puppies, but she killed one.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about whether the AKC papers are faked unless you're planning to breed or compete. I think you've learned enough to know you shouldn't breed. There are ways to fake AKC registration, but I honestly wouldn't worry much about it if I were you.
> 
> ...


Whew. I wanted to turn your wicked mother-in-law over to the authorities.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Whew. I wanted to turn your wicked mother-in-law over to the authorities.


When I first read it, I thought it was the mom-in-law too. Then I read it again and realized she meant Momma-dog did it. 
:crazy:


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Many gsd's tail curl when they're excited- perfectly normal. And your guy is beautiful!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thats just an adorable puppy pic


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way, there are a couple of nice names in the pedigree. Just wanted to throw that out.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> By the way, there are a couple of nice names in the pedigree. Just wanted to throw that out.


Yes there are. I think OP is aware that half the pedigree is actually pretty nice, and the other have is more Vom Backyard.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Sounds like a small breeder, who is possibly just starting out. Even though she may be what one considers a BYB, if she is giving out information packets, not afraid to give her vets name and number(many "breeders" are because they don't use them for anything other than emergencies")and do call backs, she is more than what I would call a BYB. Looks like a beautiful boy and a great companion.
I know there is always talk about going with big name breeders, as they are the only ones that do the right job, stand behind their dogs, etc.. This is not always true, since some big breeders are so into themselves and their name they forget other things that are important. It looks and sounds like you found a good small breeder, not necessarily a BYB. To me a BYB is a "producer" of puppies, they get the money and run. No vet number, no references, no information except "here is the puppy and his papers, give me the money, see ya". A breeder, how ever small, who is caring about her puppies, will drive to meet you to help YOU get one of her puppies, who calls back, and does everything else she did, is a small breeder, not a bad thing.

When I read about "she killed one" I also at first thought about the human, not the dog.... The same thing happened to me, a friend had one of my dogs that I bred and had written on a forum about "so and so, bred by me whom had died this summer". My phone started ringing off the wall with calls about when I had died, what happened, etc.,. She had to get back online and say it was the dog that had died during the summer. We all got a laugh over that one.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mrudderman24 said:


> 1. My breeder told me my pup came from a litter of 12 pups. Is this even possible for GSDs? I saw pictures of all of the pups and met some of the other people who purchased them. I did not visit the kennel because I asked her to meet me half way (would have been an 8 hr drive for us). She also met another couple.


Yes.


mrudderman24 said:


> 2. Is it possible to fake AKC papers? I have no reason to believe my breeder did this, just thinking outside of the box and being OCD
> My guy looks and acts purebred from what I can tell. But this is my first GSD and I had very little knowledge of pedigrees before this.


Yes, it is quite easy to claim another dog as a sire or dam and use their AKC papers. 




mrudderman24 said:


> My question is, is there something I should look out for or be weary of? Does anything look fishy? I do not need perfect conformation, as he is just a pet. Anyway, here are some pictures


Well, did you talk to these breeders regarding the health of their lines? Just like any living organism, it's a crap shoot. Going to a responsible breeder stacks the deck in your favor but nothing can be guaranteed.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

Our Shadow came from a BYB and she was a great, wonderful GSD. We miss her still. We sure didn't care what breeder she came from.
Friend, companion, protector.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Stella came from a BYB and she has an awesome temperament and nerves of steel. She loves to play ball and I could not ask for a sweeter dog.
I was going to buy from a more reputable breeder but my neighbors Male and Female had a litter and I could not resist.

She does have 1 lesion of demodemic mange that the doc said will probably clear up on its own.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I once got a pup from what could be considered a BYB. The breeder had raised and shown dogs before, but did not seem to be very knowledgable about GSDs in particular. She did get both parents OFA'd and both were of good, solid temperament as far as I could tell, but were not titled. This pup was a hodgepodge of WG, Dutch, DDR, and American bloodlines. She turned out to be an awesome dog. A bit oversize. Lost her to cancer at 4.5 years of age. Loved her and still miss her.

Just because a dog comes from a questionable breeder does not necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the dog.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Many gsd's tail curl when they're excited- perfectly normal. And your guy is beautiful!


hi, not perfectly normal, this dog has a Gay tail, a gsd's tail should not curl over their back. It is a fault. but his dog is a handsome boy for sure!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yep, a gay tail is faulty. 



horsegirl said:


> hi, not perfectly normal, this dog has a Gay tail, a gsd's tail should not curl over their back. It is a fault. but his dog is a handsome boy for sure!


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

mrudderman24 said:


> My pup has been extremely healthy and has not been ill one day.
> 
> My question is, is there something I should look out for or be weary of?


Second question first: yes _professional breeders_ with fancy websites that knock anyone who doesn't measure up to thier standarts and tells you...'_so buy one of our $1,500 / $2,000 K9s.'_

A follow up, a health GUAR, concern with the dogs health, a starter packet, a point of contact / referance...sounds to me your breeder did a good job. If you pet is healthy where's the beef ?

It's bordering on insulting to call her a BYB since BYB get your $$$ and run !


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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