# Pure Breed question.



## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Hello all,
Well my question is how do you know if the dog is a pure breed dog? I have a 10 week old GSD and just wanted to see if there was a test or something like that to rule out any other breed in him.

Here is a picture of Gunner


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

the only surefire way is to get your pup from a reputable breeder. All we can do is judge by pictures and certain characteristics. Dont waste your money on DNA tests. They're not reliable. your pup sure looks PB to me but the picture isnt the best angle(s) to fully say anything


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I second the "not wasting your money on DNA tests. 

Your pup looks pure bred to me


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Yeah I think so to just a little paranoid I guess. 
Here is a different picture, all though its not a great angle either.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

You didn't say where you got him, but if you wanted a pure bred German Shepherd you would have bought from a breeder who would have provided registration papers, proof of vet visits, adn hopefully you would have educated yourself enough to verify that Both parents have had their hips and elbows xrayed and the xrays submitted to OFA, and passed before the breeding took place. You would have also seen the proof of the quality of the parents with their titles, and training. You would have been able to approach the mom who would meet you calmly and well behaved while the owner showed you her other dogs and ribbons. All breeders love bragging about their dogs and their accomplishments. THAT is how to buy a pure bred dog, research first and all questions asked Before the pup comes home.


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

trudy said:


> You didn't say where you got him, but if you wanted a pure bred German Shepherd you would have bought from a breeder who would have provided registration papers, proof of vet visits, adn hopefully you would have educated yourself enough to verify that Both parents have had their hips and elbows xrayed and the xrays submitted to OFA, and passed before the breeding took place. You would have also seen the proof of the quality of the parents with their titles, and training. You would have been able to approach the mom who would meet you calmly and well behaved while the owner showed you her other dogs and ribbons. All breeders love bragging about their dogs and their accomplishments. THAT is how to buy a pure bred dog, research first and all questions asked Before the pup comes home.


Yeah thats great and all, however to find breeders like that in Fresno is like ending terrorism; its never going to happen. And if I could find one with those kind of accomplishments I would be paying over $1000 and I don't have that kind of money. I love the bred, but I don't have that kind of money to invest. I know that sounds bad but If he is a pure bred then I have no problems with that. No matter what blood line he came from papers or not I will love him as much as I can regardless. I did meet the mother and she was very nice. Im not going to enter competitions or train him as a police dog or start breeding, I just love the breed and couldn't see myself with any other.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I paid $650 for the granddaughter of a Grand Victor (with papers, of course) you don't have to pay a fortune for a registered GSD.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

sometimes the $1000 spent for a well bred dog turns out cheap when compared to potential vet costs for health issues. I know lots of people will say this and yes even well bred can have health issues but you are usually safer if the parents are health tested and really you can't see the problem by just looking until it is going to cost lots. AS far as the mom being nice, that is actually 1/2 the equation, who is the dad?? Do they hide or panic during thunder storms?? Do they lunge at people when walked, that usually signifies fear, so they show aggression cause they are afraid. I'm sure mom was nice in her yard, but what about when stressed in a new place. 

Although what ever you paid might appear cheaper, so often people decide they don't like the breed and the dog is then abandoned to a shelter as too ill, hard to train, fearful, aggressive etc. The reason is usually buying cheap. I really hope this doesn't happen to you, I hope this pup remains healthy and if you socialize daily and train and do lots that the temperment issues won't come through. Good luck. Too bad you didn't check out this site as some people could have pointed you the better way. And if you can't afford the larger price perhaps a rescue that does all health updates and temperment tests the dogs and carefully matches one to a family could have been found. 

Now you are playing russian roulette, and I hope you have the money for vets and training classes,


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

trudy said:


> sometimes the $1000 spent for a well bred dog turns out cheap when compared to potential vet costs for health issues. I know lots of people will say this and yes even well bred can have health issues but you are usually safer if the parents are health tested and really you can't see the problem by just looking until it is going to cost lots. AS far as the mom being nice, that is actually 1/2 the equation, who is the dad?? Do they hide or panic during thunder storms?? Do they lunge at people when walked, that usually signifies fear, so they show aggression cause they are afraid. I'm sure mom was nice in her yard, but what about when stressed in a new place.
> 
> Although what ever you paid might appear cheaper, so often people decide they don't like the breed and the dog is then abandoned to a shelter as too ill, hard to train, fearful, aggressive etc. The reason is usually buying cheap. I really hope this doesn't happen to you, I hope this pup remains healthy and if you socialize daily and train and do lots that the temperment issues won't come through. Good luck. Too bad you didn't check out this site as some people could have pointed you the better way. And if you can't afford the larger price perhaps a rescue that does all health updates and temperment tests the dogs and carefully matches one to a family could have been found.
> 
> Now you are playing russian roulette, and I hope you have the money for vets and training classes,


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
I spent next to nothing on my old man when I bought him. I have since spent 10's of thousands on vet fees and health issues. Plus, when we recently moved from Texas to Wahington last year, he had to be on a prescription of Xanax and we had to do an e-vet visit because his nervous stomach had him pooping straight blood. Thank goodness we came accross an awesome vet in the middle of Wyoming!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Skipping over the debates.. you have a handsome little German Shepherd puppy.

Congratulations and enjoy him.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Jaggirl47, where were you when you found the vet? I live in wyoming so just curious

I am sure I am going to get lots of nasty comments, but oh well. I notice that everyone is so quick to sound discouraging to anyone who doesn't pay hugh amounts of money for a GSD puppy, then goes on to tell them how they will have huge bills, temperament issues, etc because their puppy did not come from a "big" breeder. 
Not all puppies that come from big breeders are the best or the healthiest. Not all puppies from big breeders have perfect temperaments. Not all puppies from big breeder are 100% perfect. It is sad that someone can write to this forum, proud as punch of their puppy and then have a bunch of folks basically say" oh wow, too bad you didn't buy from a big breeder, now you will be sorry. You will spend thousands on vet bills, have bad temperaments, have HD, and on and on. ' How about welcoming folks and being happy that they have decided to add a GSD to their lives.
I have bought puppies from "big" breeders and ended up with HD out of OFA parents, autoimmune issues that cost me thousands to keep puppy alive, etc. I have also bought puppies from small time breeders and never had one ounce of issues, healthwise or temperament wise.
I bred shelties for years, bred Champions, performance titled dogs, etc. I did all the genetic testing, OFA clearences and yet I was not a "big" breeder in the terms used here. But, my puppies were sold with guarantees and spay/neuter contracts and most lived happy healthy lives. If I did have an issue come up, then the puppy was replaced. I bought many Shelties from "big" breeders and got HD, temperament issues, genetic issues. When contacting these breeders, I got" oh my have never had that happen in my breeding before, sorry". 
ANY dog, whether coming from a BIG breeder or a small unknown breeder can have issues. HD, genetic, temperament issues happen in all breedings no matter how well they are planned. I am not talking the local puppy mill. I am not talking breeding Princess to Prince. I am talking a person who loves their dogs, has the genetic testing and does it on a small time basis. Maybe not well known, but still good breeders.
But it is sad that some on this list immediately jump on the post of a new person who just got their new puppy, are proud of this puppy and immediately get knocked down by the" you will be sorry because you didn't buy from a "big" breeder. I read the post from a new person last night asking if his new little puppy was purebred and instead he got "if you had been smart, you would have purchased this puppy from a big breeder, you would not be having huge vet bills coming up, you will have this temperament issues, etc." To me thats sad, instead of encouraging this person to come aboard and ask for help if needed, this person will be afraid to ask a simple question since he has already been told his new puppy is trash.
Registration papers don't mean anything, any dog can be registered with AKC if its parents are AKC registered. AKC does not mean quality anymore than it means your AKC dog will not have issues of any kind. It means its purebred. Just because a dog does not have papers, doesn't mean he is low quality. People trash a person from buying from a pet breeder or backyard breeder or a Craigslist puppy, but those same people love when someone rescues a dog from the pound or rescue that has issues of biting, housebreaking, etc. And please don't try to say all GSD in rescue come from poor breeding, there are lots of show bred and well bred GSD that end up in rescue/shelters because of issues of being brought up wrong, not how they were bred.
Maybe some on this forum need to not be so quick to make a person feel they just bought the biggest mistake of their lives because it did not come from a big breeder, instead encourage them. There is not one honest breeder on this forum or any forum who says they have never had HD issues, temperament issues or other health issues. Anyone who breeds will have problems in their lines. Admit it or not. 
But don't make a new owner feel low class because they did not spend $2000 for that puppy. Even if it was free, it is stil their puppy to love. Don't discourage a new GSD person, their free or almost free puppy can be as healthy and loving as your $2000 puppy


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Jaggirl47, where were you when you found the vet? I live in wyoming so just curious
> 
> I am sure I am going to get lots of nasty comments, but oh well. I notice that everyone is so quick to sound discouraging to anyone who doesn't pay hugh amounts of money for a GSD puppy, then goes on to tell them how they will have huge bills, temperament issues, etc because their puppy did not come from a "big" breeder.
> Not all puppies that come from big breeders are the best or the healthiest. Not all puppies from big breeders have perfect temperaments. Not all puppies from big breeder are 100% perfect. It is sad that someone can write to this forum, proud as punch of their puppy and then have a bunch of folks basically say" oh wow, too bad you didn't buy from a big breeder, now you will be sorry. You will spend thousands on vet bills, have bad temperaments, have HD, and on and on. ' How about welcoming folks and being happy that they have decided to add a GSD to their lives.
> ...


We were in Cheyenne but I cannot remember for the life of me the name of the vet office. As soon as I told them the health history of my boy, they immediately knew what to do and were amazing.

As far as purchasing a pup from a reputable breeder, it greatly stacks the favor your way. Can the more expensive pup have health issues? Of course. Pups are a crap shoot. However, there is a much more reduced chance of the pup having issues than a pup coming from untested lines. After all of the issues I have been through with my old man, I payed alot more for my pup. Already I have spent way less in the 11 months she has been alive than I did in Zappa's first 11 months.

As far as what people are posting, I think it is more about the statement that the OP stated they could not afford to pay for a "higher quality" (or however you want to put it) pup. However, if the initial amount is too much, what happens if the pup ends up having genetic issues and you pay way more for vet fees? When you buy a pup, it isn't just the initial cost. It is also about the costs throughout the life of the dog.

Now, that being said, the OP's pup is absolutely adorable, no matter where it came from.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Oh you were over on the East side. I live in the west part of the start, the pretty part by Yellowstone. 
I understand what you are saying, and it is true that tested lines have been just that tested. But just because a person can't put out thousands on a puppy doesn't automatically mean they will have thousands of dollars in vet bills. Any dog can have health issues, the most expensive to the cheapest.
I was just trying to say some folks need to be a bit more aware of how sometimes it seems they are "looking down their noses" at someone who doesn't buy from the most expensive puppy. Just because they don't have the money to spend for the purchase doesn't mean they won't spend it for whatever is needed. Just because they buy or get their puppy without spending thousands doesnt mean they will dump it at the first sign of problems.
Working at the vet clinic, I have seen people with more money than dirt not want to spend money testing their expensive dog for health issues or good food or whatever, but the people who work for every dime will figure out a way to spend thousands of dollars to fix their family pet. 
Nobody should be made to feel less a good owner if they don't have that $2000 GSD puppy. They should be made to feel welcome and feel its okay to ask a question without being afraid of being told" see, you wouldn't be having this issue if you had bought a puppy with better bloodlines, etc". The first thing I see happening when someone who has bought a expensive puppy and writes about a problem" did you contact the breeder" and figures it will all be okay because big breeder will help. Well not all big breeders will help. But when a person says" I have a problem with my puppy I bought off Craigslist" they are told "if you hadn't bought your puppy from Craigslist you would not be having this problem.". Thats not true at all.
Just be nice to people who post with not such expensive puppies or dogs, they still love the puppy as much as you love yours and want to ask advice and help, not be looked down their nose.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> We were in Cheyenne but I cannot remember for the life of me the name of the vet office. As soon as I told them the health history of my boy, they immediately knew what to do and were amazing.
> 
> As far as purchasing a pup from a reputable breeder, it greatly stacks the favor your way. Can the more expensive pup have health issues? Of course. Pups are a crap shoot. However, there is a much more reduced chance of the pup having issues than a pup coming from untested lines. After all of the issues I have been through with my old man, I payed alot more for my pup. Already I have spent way less in the 11 months she has been alive than I did in Zappa's first 11 months.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> I was just trying to say some folks need to be a bit more aware of how sometimes it seems they are "looking down their noses" at someone who doesn't buy from the most expensive puppy.


I bought my boy for $600, I got him from a byb. I dont look down at others that bought their dogs from byb's without knowing. I do however have a problem with people that purposely buy puppies from byb's because they are cheaper. 

(Not saying that this is what the OP did)

I have been on this forum for over a year now, I know the difference between a byb and a reputable breeder. I am educated now, I will never go the byb route again.



wyominggrandma said:


> They should be made to feel welcome and feel its okay to ask a question without being afraid of being told" see, you wouldn't be having this issue if you had bought a puppy with better bloodlines, etc".


Yes, they should be welcomed, I agree. But if the OP is questioning if they have a PB GSD, then they should have gone through a reputable breeder to ensure that they were in fact getting a PB GSD like they wanted.



wyominggrandma said:


> The first thing I see happening when someone who has bought a expensive puppy and writes about a problem" did you contact the breeder" and figures it will all be okay because big breeder will help. Well not all big breeders will help.


Reputable breeders will take their puppies back. If they do not, then IMO they are not reputable breeders.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay, hi, the picture you sent , the second one , hair around eye leading down dog's right side of muzzle looks a little sparse and moth eaten, plus the eye is a little weepy. Keep an eye out for mange. - now it just might be the lighting and the angle
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wyominggrandma said:


> Jaggirl47, where were you when you found the vet? I live in wyoming so just curious
> 
> I am sure I am going to get lots of nasty comments, but oh well. I notice that everyone is so quick to sound discouraging to anyone who doesn't pay hugh amounts of money for a GSD puppy, then goes on to tell them how they will have huge bills, temperament issues, etc because their puppy did not come from a "big" breeder.
> Not all puppies that come from big breeders are the best or the healthiest. Not all puppies from big breeders have perfect temperaments. Not all puppies from big breeder are 100% perfect. It is sad that someone can write to this forum, proud as punch of their puppy and then have a bunch of folks basically say" oh wow, too bad you didn't buy from a big breeder, now you will be sorry. You will spend thousands on vet bills, have bad temperaments, have HD, and on and on. ' How about welcoming folks and being happy that they have decided to add a GSD to their lives.
> ...



I agree with all of this except that most of the people here would encourage not a big breeder but a breeder who follows a list of requirements, such as testing for genetic problems, titling breeding stock, and being willing to take back puppies at any point during their lives. These are not big breeders, it is what people consider reputable breeders and that is hashed and rehashed all over the breeding section. 

It is unfortunate that people couple health of the puppy with type of breeder. If you could guarantee that the health of the puppy would not be problematic, spending $1000 and up is not even a question. But no one can guarantee anything more than the dog WILL get sick and die at some point if an accident doesn't get him first. What good breeders TRY to accomplish is to stack the deck in the puppy buyer's favor in trying to AVOID the major genetic problems. And sometimes the goals of their breeding program MAY actually increase the risk of some problems due to the narrower genetic pool caused by line breeding and breeding away from various traits.

I think that there are good reasons besides health that it makes sense for many of us to put our money, and even spend more money on a well bred dog:

1. We want to support people who match our beliefs in how the GSD should be as a breed maintained.

2. We want the breeding animals to be well cared for and to have more of a life than pumping out puppies. 

3. We do not want even a few hundred dollars to go to the people who are breeding indiscriminately, breeding without health screening, selling puppies early, breeding questionable dogs with regards to weak nerves and other issues. Because if people are putting little into their dogs, even a few hundred dollars for each pup can be incentive to continue to breed them. 

4. We have specific plans for the dog and we want to get one from someone that is producing dogs that are likely to do well in those area. 

I am sure there are other reasons. The other thing is that most of us have gotten at least one dog from a less than wonderful breeder. Some of our stories are pretty horrific in that regards, but most of them came out pretty much normal. I think that when people become students of the GSD, they tend to discuss things with some of the born-again energy and zeal, convert the world, and eventually the knowledge and experience catches up.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree with what you are saying Selzer. But if you have bought dogs from different breeders, even reputable ones can sometimes dump you like a hot potatoe when you say your puppy from them has an issue. Of course at that point, you have now found out the breeder you thought was reputable is not in fact that at all. Sometimes reputable is equated with how many puppies are produced, how many are in the show ring, how many Champions they have or performance Champions they have. But, they could still be producing puppies with many issues.
I also agree with the "save the GSD type attitude " that some have is fine and dandy, but those same folks have to realize that not everyone is as brilliant as they are and might be just learning the breed. 
Everyone has bought their first car and even though it might not be a BMW, it doesn't mean they aren't as proud of it as the owner of the BMW. They don't need to be told their car is a piece ofjunk. Have seen many $200 cars go forever and those $20000 cars fall apart in the first 6 months of driving.
I just want to encourage people to think a bit before they post when someone new comes on board. Don't tell them to expect huge vet bills because their puppy wasn't bought from the top of the line breeder. Don't tell them to be careful because the puppy will do this or that. Nobody knows what that puppy will do or not do. Sure, the bloodlines might not be perfect or be from this line or that, but those puppies from the top breeders have issues also and nobody tells them" hey watch out, that sire produces bad temperments, soft temperaments, HD or whatever, they will say" oh wow congratulations, you bought a such and such puppy, you are so lucky and such a good owner because you did your homework". 
A newbie might think they are doing a good thing, might fall for a breeders line of " we are such and such or breed such and such" and buy a puppy. That puppy may or may not have issues. If it does, they will learn what they did wrong. Or not.
But give the new posters a welcoming attitude and make them feel as im portant as the person who just bought a $2000 puppy from the top kennel in the country. They are still in love with the breed and are happy to have a GSD.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

And as far as number 4, some folks just want a family companion and when they go see a happy litter of puppies, a happy mom and dad and a clean environment, they are happy to buy their new family member.
I don't think this board is specifically meant for only people who have show dogs, or performance dogs, or herding dogs or any other types of venues to perform in. I thought this board was for German Shepherd Lovers.
If that is the case, maybe I should leave, as I must not be a welcome member. I bought Holly to be my companion. I have show dogs, didn't want another. I might at some point train for obedience or rally or something, but not at this point. I expect her to be well behaved and balanced while on leash or off, while in my home or a public place. She is first and formost my pet.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Number four was just one of the many good reasons some people have for going with a breeder they feel is reputable.

I mean, really, no one goes out and says, I want to find a nasty puppy mill, where the dogs live encased in poop and are bred every six months, when they go out to buy a puppy. 

Some do not really think much about the source of the puppies, but no one goes out looking for bad ones. And most people THINK that their breeder is pretty good, otherwise they would not have bought from them. 

And for a pet, they breeder probably was JUST FINE, but they then get on here and LEARN about the horrors of getting a dog from 'dubious' sources and look at their puppy expecting it to grow a second head. 

Unfortunately, some will also use the new-found knowledge to excuse behavior and issues instead of dealing with them head on, or even trying to understand, what they are doing to encourage the behaviors. But whatever. 

I do not think we are disagreeing at all. 

People do not need to be greeted with -- hey, cute puppy but he is a mix. 
People do not need to be greeted with -- Ew, you bought a dog from a BYB, now it is going to be nothing but trouble.
People do not need to be greeted with -- if you would have done your homework, you would have bought a dog from a better place.


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Well great I wish I never even questioned this and started this topic. 

PLEASE LOCK!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree Selzer... 

Quinten78, glad you started this thread, maybe a few folks will understand how to make a person feel welcome instead of making them feel stupid or being looked down upon.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Quinten78,
Cute puppy! Congrats!
Don't take offense (I know it's hard), but the majority of the people here.. are enthusiasts, breeders, owners and rescue volunteers. They have "passion" when it comes to this breed, even though their comments can seem argumentative or hostile at times.
*Enjoy your puppy, it will be your friend for many years (God willing).....and BTW....you're pup looks to be of pure breeding IMO.*


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Yeah I hope so too, however some people just need to feel superior and like to make it known how "Epic" their dogs are.

Either way ill let this one roll off the back and not take advice from them again.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

did you trust the people you got the dog from?


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Yeah as much as the next person, sure. I was able to see the mother and she looked good to me. All the puppies were healthy.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Quinten78 said:


> Yeah I hope so too, however some people just need to feel superior and like to make it known how "Epic" their dogs are.
> 
> Either way ill let this one roll off the back and not take advice from them again.


 
It isn't people showing how "Epic" their dogs are. Believe me. The majority of us on the board started at the same point. I know I did. I will give you some of my boy's history in hopes that you better understand.
I bought my Zappa when he was 6 weeks old from a "breeder". He was a grand totla of $250. I was about 3 months pregnant with my oldest son.
Zappa was the sweetest pup. Just an absolutely loving personality. He was beautiful.
Flash forward to 10 months or so of age. Zappa had a massive loose stool episode. Nothing had been changed, his food, environment, nothing. We ended up at the vet because it continued for the next 2 days. Fecals were negative, blood tests normal. The vets said it was most likely acute pancreatitis and put him on a course of clavimox.
Flash forward a few more years. This explosive poop kept happening every few months and ended him up at the e-vet more times than I can count for IV fluids and medications. He was getting the diagnosis of acute pancreatitis and acute cholecystitis every time, but was getting to where the clavimox was not working anymore. As he got older, his loose poop was starting to get bloody.
Back in May 2009, Zappa ended up back at the e-vet with straight blood coming out. The vets were doing the blood tests he would always get but a fecal was meaningless. There was no poop, just blood. I saw a booklet in the exam room that spoke about EPI. When the vet came back in, I asked him if there was a possibility he could have it. The vet said he most likely had that or some type of illness that went with it.
I found a vet (finally) willing to look more into my dog's issues. He went to vet school and used to work at Texas A&M. When I went through my dog's history, we did the fasting blood tests for EPI, SIBO, and B12 deficiency.
His EPI came back in the very low end of normal. Low, but still normal. No EPI thank goodness. His B12 was also normal. His folate, for the SIBO test, came back extremely high.
The vet immediately put my boy on a prescription diet and started him on high doses Tylan 2x a day. The food seriously sucked for him though. He still continued to have problems.
I joined this board in hopes of finding something that worked for my boy. After alot of trial and error (and more e-vet visits), my dog has become fairly stable on Orijen 6Fish, with his Tylan daily. He has not had an emergency trip to the vet since September 2010 when he had straight blood and had to stay for a couple of days. Just as an FYI, the more bouts he had, the more meds he would have to get in the vet, to include IV steroids, IV antibiotics, and more IV fluids. This kept wracking up the vet costs.

The problems with my dog could have easily been averted. The "breeder" never tested their dogs for anything. They did not know the lines. I did not know the difference between a reputable breeder and a back yard breeder. The issues above are just the GI portions of his issues. These do not include his orthopedic issues from genetic hip displaysia, among other things.
The members on here are not trying to put you down on where you got your pup. We all love the GSD. There concern and comments come from similar backgrounds to mine, some with the same type issues, others with completely different issues. But many with issues, period.

Your pup is completely adorable. But then, who doesn't love a GSD pup? :wub: Enjoy your pup and stay on this forum. It is an excellent resource for info as your pup gets older. Enjoy your baby because they grow very fast.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The thing to also remember is......any puppy can have health issues arise.
Even the most responsible breeders, can and will face the possibility of a dog from their breeding have a health issue at some time in the dog's life......it's just an awful fact.
However; by purchasing your puppy/dog from a responsible breeder, the "statistics" are in the lower range, and *God forbid such a thing does happen*....the support from the breeder is generally higher.
Bad things happen to good people, and to our wonderful canine companions....but by supporting good breeders, we can hopefully stack the deck in favor of healthy, sound GSD's.
* An ounce of prevention...is worth more than a pound of cure...(or something like that)..*
JMO


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kendra, what would you think if your story was exactly the same, only your dog came from a very reputable breeder? 

I think this is what WyomingGrandma and I were trying to say, Robin said it more concisely. 

If you got your puppy from a breeder who does not have every i dotted and every t crossed, then anything that goes wrong health or temperament is their fault.

If you got your puppy from a breeder who does have every i dotted and every t crossed, and it has the very same problem, well that is the luck of the draw, puppies are a crap shoot, sometimes despite all that we do, there are still problems, etc.

I would bet that for every health-horror story, there are ten people out there with dogs that had no more than the ordinary health concerns. 

I got Frodo from a litter that was whelped and raised under a junk car. He cost me $150 and had AKC papers. I do not think he was sick a day in his life and he could eat anything. If I did not let him get hit by a car, I probably would not have had to have him to the vet other than shots in eight years. He had a strong temperament and I did not know what I was doing, he was never afraid of anything. Any trouble I had with him was probably more the result of my ignorance than his genetics.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

selzer said:


> Kendra, what would you think if your story was exactly the same, only your dog came from a very reputable breeder?
> 
> I think this is what WyomingGrandma and I were trying to say, Robin said it more concisely.
> 
> ...


 
Sue, I did write on one of the earlier posts that yes, the same things can happen if you spend the money from a reputable breeder. However, it stacks the chances in your favor that the pup from a reputable breeder will not have issues.
Pups are a crapshoot. I said that earlier. However, which type of pup will more likely end up in a shelter? The one you spend $1200-$1500 on or the one you spend $200 or so on? Which one is more likely to be used for indescriminate breeding with no health checks? That is the point I am trying to make.
I shudder to think of how many siblings of Zappa's were used for breeding or ended up in a shelter. I get asked constantly why do I bother with having Zappa treated? Why do I not just put him to sleep? The majority of people do not understand that dogs are more than dogs. They are part of the family. Which is why on several occasions, when dogs have issues they end up in a shelter.
Zappa was line bred 5 times on Canto. Canto's daughters were used several times in Zappa's lines. What was Canto known for passing on through his daughters? von Willebrand's. I know now how lucky I am that Zappa does not have that. 
Any pup can have issues. Why not stack the odds in your direction?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your point is valid. Good breeders try to avoid / breed away from major health problems.

However, this is not the thread for that. 

This person already has the puppy. He/she was not asking about possible health concerns. He was not asking advice on where to get a puppy. 

If someone comes on saying, I am thinking of adding a GSD puppy, we can go to town about what type of breeder they should go to and why, or go to town on why they should think of rescuing.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Exactly, welcome the new person with open arms and give all the advice you can that he/she ASKS for. Don't go into the "you will be sorry you bought from a bad/no name/backyard/breeder. 
Welcome them and help them and share their fun stories and their complaints when puppy is being a brat. Help when asked for it. But don't start off by making anyone feel unwelcome and stupid and dumb for not buying from the best. 
Let it go, no lectures to someone coming aboard, just welcome new people into the GSD world instead of making them feel like trash because YOU don't happen to feel their puppy is worthy.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> Exactly, welcome the new person with open arms and give all the advice you can that he/she ASKS for. Don't go into the "you will be sorry you bought from a bad/no name/backyard/breeder.
> Welcome them and help them and share their fun stories and their complaints when puppy is being a brat. Help when asked for it. But don't start off by making anyone feel unwelcome and stupid and dumb for not buying from the best.
> Let it go, no lectures to someone coming aboard, just welcome new people into the GSD world instead of making them feel like trash because YOU don't happen to feel their puppy is worthy.


Amen Sista !


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Exactly, welcome the new person with open arms and give all the advice you can that he/she ASKS for. Don't go into the "you will be sorry you bought from a bad/no name/backyard/breeder.
> Welcome them and help them and share their fun stories and their complaints when puppy is being a brat. Help when asked for it. But don't start off by making anyone feel unwelcome and stupid and dumb for not buying from the best.
> Let it go, no lectures to someone coming aboard, just welcome new people into the GSD world instead of making them feel like trash because YOU don't happen to feel their puppy is worthy.


 
I believe in a couple of my posts I did welcome them and tell them their pup was adorable (which it is). My Zappa is a complete mess but I would never get rid of him, nor would I recommend anyone else to do so with their BYB dog.
However, and I am not the only one on this post, the OP stated they did not have the money or were not going to spend the money (I am not direct quoting but it is in this thread) to spend on a better bred dog. The OP, as a new GSD owner, should know what may happen with a GSD who possibly may be poorly bred. On top of that, this is also not the welcome threads. The OP was asking if their dog was PB or if it could be mixed. The OP directly asked questions in reference to their pup.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Jaqgirl47 you are right. The OP asked if his pup was purebred or mixed. Instead of getting simple replies, of course alot of folks did reply simply by saying" yes he is purebred". He got the standard lecture of "if you had bought your puppy from a big breeder, you would know he is purebred, you would know he is AKC registered, yadda yadda". 
Why do a few folks on this forum insist on raining on everyone's parade? Why do they think just because THEY could afford to spend big bucks on their puppy from such and such big name, that their puppy/dog poops gold and any other puppy from other situations are garbage, going to fall apart, going to have major vet issues, etc.
Sure lots of folks on this forum have had bad experiences with puppies from byb/pet shops, puppy mills and where ever else their puppy came from, but there are just as many I am sure who got their dogs from the above places and love them, they have been healthy and happy, but would not more say it out loud because of the nasty lectures they would get.
I did not say this was the "welcoming thread" what I said was and will say again" is it so very hard to just make someone glad they found the forume with their new puppy no matter where it came from? Do they have to be lectured? I have a hard skin and can deal with people who think they are better than me or that I am some idiot with no knowledge and just feel sorry for them. However, it is sad to see a new person feel like they should apologize because they asked a simple question and got the third degree for asking it. 
To the OP, I think your puppy is adorable and am glad you have given him a home. Please realize that not everyone on here will lecture you or tell you what you have is trash because it doesn't poop out the proverable gold bricks that their big name dogs have. 
I will be happy to reply to any questions you have, just PM me.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, I have seen several posts here that would say that "big" can often be the opposite of "reputable"
I think the OP got the responses he did because he doesn't seem to trust that the breeder even sold him a purebred puppy. His reason was that he couldn't afford a better breeder. Most of the responses were brought about by that statement. If you "can't afford" a breeder that you can at least trust to give you a purebred dog, then it would seem logical to not support them with any money. Also that stands to reason that if you can't trust them to give you what you paid for, that they might not be trustworthy enough to give you a dog that is healthy


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> actually, I have seen several posts here that would say that "big" can often be the opposite of "reputable"
> I think the OP got the responses he did because he doesn't seem to trust that the breeder even sold him a purebred puppy. His reason was that he couldn't afford a better breeder. Most of the responses were brought about by that statement. If you "can't afford" a breeder that you can at least trust to give you a purebred dog, then it would seem logical to not support them with any money. Also that stands to reason that if you can't trust them to give you what you paid for, that they might not be trustworthy enough to give you a dog that is healthy


 
:thumbup: You said it much better than I did. I am most likely too blunt for my own good though.


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Ok look!
The only reason I was asking if he looked like a pure bred was because I saw in the pictures forum that there was a bunch of "pure bred" dogs from a breeder and they looked nothing like the one I have. *Its not that I didn't trust the person I got him from its just that i was curious if there are different types.* Nothing More.
All I asked was if you guys think he looked good, that's it.

To all the people that gave me an honest answer, thank you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Quinten, yes there are different types of GSDs, many. The three most commanly mentioned here are American show lines, German showlines, and Working lines. But the working lines can be further divided, and there are other showlines, and American pet lines -- which is a conglomeration of dogs that have developed and bred for specific reasons ore mixtures of the various lines for different reasons, or simply due to availablity. 

This is why I always scratch my head a bit when people are quick to give the opinion that a dog is a mix. A GSD can be long coated, plush (not a coat length in any standard, but certainly common) medium length, short stock coat to almost skin tight. It should have an undercoat, but some do not. They range from 50 pounds on the small side to well over a hundred on the large side. The backs go from flat across, to extremely angulated, to roached. Some have light bones, some are heavily boned. there are barrel chests, well sprung, slab sided flat chest, pigeon chested dogs. Some have blocky heads with short muzzles, other have long skinny muzzles. Ears should be up, but some never stand. Tail should be held low like a saber, but some 'happy tails' raise up above the back.

Between conformation faults, different lines, and the various weights owners allow their dogs to maintain, the dogs can look very different indeed.


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Now I know there is an ear forum but i was wondering why is it so important that the ears stand up? and whet about my pups ears they seem to flop over in the middle of the ear (not sure if you can see in the picture).

Should i be concerned? or will they perk up? when I pet him and all should I not pet over his ears? I heard that it will make them go down and stay down.

Q


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Ears Up, is all about the look. Some people don't care if they go up or not, they just love their dog, others love their dog but love the standard as well, and if the ears don't come up in the long run, they help the ears with different methods. Your pup is REALLY young still, don't worry about ears for another five months, most commonly come up around 3-4 months, some more around 6.... You can pet them, rub them, just don't crunch or crumble them in your hands. Chewing and teething helps strengthen the ears! Hope this helped!


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Ears Up, is all about the look. Some people don't care if they go up or not, they just love their dog, others love their dog but love the standard as well, and if the ears don't come up in the long run, they help the ears with different methods. Your pup is REALLY young still, don't worry about ears for another five months, most commonly come up around 3-4 months, some more around 6.... You can pet them, rub them, just don't crunch or crumble them in your hands. Chewing and teething helps strengthen the ears! Hope this helped!


Yes thank you so much for your reply.


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## jherring (Feb 19, 2011)

Your dog is cute and I hope you have many happy years with him. Even though LaRen 616 will have a problem with me I bought my dog from a BYB and I paid $500 for him. I don't need blue ribbons on a breeders wall and a $2000 price tag to make me feel proud of my pup.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

jherring said:


> Your dog is cute and I hope you have many happy years with him. Even though LaRen 616 will have a problem with me I bought my dog from a BYB and I paid $500 for him. I don't need blue ribbons on a breeders wall and a $2000 price tag to make me feel proud of my pup.


 
Umm, LaRen's dog is from a BYB as well. Did you not read her posts?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

jherring said:


> Your dog is cute and I hope you have many happy years with him. Even though LaRen 616 will have a problem with me I bought my dog from a BYB and I paid $500 for him. I don't need blue ribbons on a breeders wall and a $2000 price tag to make me feel proud of my pup.


Hey excuse you, I bought my GSD from a byb for $600, he's not from a fantastic breeder and he definitly doesn't have any blue ribbons. He is over the breed standard and acts like a Lab.

Read before you post!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Not to intrude on this thread but I hear roached back alot .What exactly is it?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Play nice!

Daphne -- moderator


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Welcome, Gunner is a real cutie! Untill they are done teething at 5 or 6 mos their ears can go up and down or go up and stay up. During the teething it helps strengthen the cartilage in the ears if they have something to chew on, bully stick, knuckle bone (raw), some people use rawhide but supervise all so that there is no choking hazard.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Not to intrude on this thread but I hear roached back alot .What exactly is it?


 
Take a look at this thread it should be able to answer any of your questions on the subject. There are some very helpful links in this thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...097-straight-back-gsd-vs-sloped-question.html


Sorry Q not trying to mess up your thread just wanted to answer this question since I was just on that thread. Forgive my intrusion not trying to be disrespectful in anyway to you.


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## jherring (Feb 19, 2011)

"I bought my boy for $600, I got him from a byb. I dont look down at others that bought their dogs from byb's without knowing. I do however have a problem with people that purposely buy puppies from byb's because they are cheaper."


I did read your post.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

jherring said:


> "I bought my boy for $600, I got him from a byb. I dont look down at others that bought their dogs from byb's without knowing. I do however have a problem with people that purposely buy puppies from byb's because they are cheaper."
> 
> 
> I did read your post.


 
Then you obviously don't understand it. She bought a dog and supported a BYB before understanding the difference. Most of us on this board did. She also has a young dog with HD and zero breeder support. She has an issue with those that DO know the difference yet still support these "breeders" who do zero health testing and add to the overall downfall of our breed. Not just the downfall, but add to the thousands in the shelters who get dumped because their dogs in up having health and temperment issues.
I bought my old man for $250. Do I love him? You bet your hind end I do. Doesn't mean I will ever support the people that bred him or the thousand others who breed indescriminately. My poor old man has more health issues than I can count.
It isn't always about the "blue ribbons" on the walls or the price tag on the pups. It is about what the breeder brings to the breed and what they pay attention to to breed out of the breed.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I am new to this forum. I got a dog from a backyard breeder .All the GSD's I grew up with were backyard breeders ,usually only bred once and were from a neighbor who you knew their dog.Daisy ,Thank you God, has had some medical issues but in comparsion to what you describe her Parvo was a close but fixable issue. What I did not count on was her temperment.I found out later that her granddame was sold with a dont breed clause. Reaching out to others I found out her Dad raised with kids was great with kids but bite a few adult men. her mother had somewhat the same temperment and her dad was dog aggressive. Both were bred befor they were a year and a second litter was born when Daisy was 7 months old. Daisy in comparsion because we choose the enviroment she is exposed to is safe, happy and our Princess .Add to her issues with breeeding I worked with a trainer who disliked the breed.My new worry is Daisy's mother someone told me passed due to cancer but since the BYB is no longer active and the two known breeders on either parent side expressed anger at me for buying a dog that should not have been bred have been less then helpful.It is tough thing you are facing but your little guy is adorable and you love him and are committed. Daisy has gotten me help when I've been unconcious,woke me once in an insulin reaction by crunching faux pearls over my head. Daisy lets me take food out of her mouth and gives kisses.We jokingly call her the $6000.00 Dog,(parvo ,cysts)but I love her and she was my first dog that was truly mine.Lucky came from a breeder doing rescue.He had heartworm. He is my boy.What have I learned from all of this? I'm a social worker and I will probably always go with rescues but I know more then I did then and I'm a member of the forum.Hang in there and I hope you and your liitle guy find answers .By the way he looks like every GSD pupy Ive seen.


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

> Sorry Q not trying to mess up your thread just wanted to answer this question since I was just on that thread. Forgive my intrusion not trying to be disrespectful in anyway to you.


Not a problem at all.


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## Quinten78 (May 5, 2011)

Also at what age will you be able to tell if a puppy or adult dog has temperament issues?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Quinten78 said:


> Also at what age will you be able to tell if a puppy or adult dog has temperament issues?


 
It depends on the dog. Some at a young age show fear issues. Some show aggression issues older.


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## Texas_Eva (Apr 10, 2011)

@ Quinten78: You have a cute pup, and as others have said the DNA test would likely be useless. By the time you get the results you'll adore and love him so much he could be half human and you wouldn't care. 

I also wanted to comment there seems to be a lot of bashing of BYB, which is understandable. But I want to say that there are bad eggs on both sides. There are some small breeders only out to make a buck, and there are large "legit" breeders who do just as much damage to the breed we love. The judgement isn't needed and semi-condemnation of the purchasers of these BTB pups isn't needed. There are people who do good for the breed from their back yard litters, and the same can be said for expensive breeders as well.

Those who hurt the breed will find their justice, it may take time...but it will be found.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

jherring said:


> Your dog is cute and I hope you have many happy years with him. Even though LaRen 616 will have a problem with me I bought my dog from a BYB and I paid $500 for him. I don't need blue ribbons on a breeders wall and a $2000 price tag to make me feel proud of my pup.


The point many people have is there is no reason to pay 500 dollars for a dog that could have been bred accidentally. This is not to say these dogs can't be great for some people. But there are many great dogs in shelters also being put to sleep every day. No reason to bring another "pure" dog into the world for no reason. 

spending big money or not much money is no reason to feel proud of a dog. I have both an well bred GSD and a mix breed dog from the shelter. Both dogs are amazing. No reason though to pay any money though for a dog you could get from a rescue or shelter. You can most likely get a better GSD from a rescue


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Texas_Eva said:


> I also wanted to comment there seems to be a lot of bashing of BYB, which is understandable. But I want to say that there are bad eggs on both sides. There are some small breeders only out to make a buck, and there are large "legit" breeders who do just as much damage to the breed we love. The judgement isn't needed and semi-condemnation of the purchasers of these BTB pups isn't needed. There are people who do good for the breed from their back yard litters, and the same can be said for expensive breeders as well.
> .


if you hang around, you will find just as much (if not more) contempt for the big breeders you mention. The push here is for RESPONSIBLE breeders, those who breed only to better the breed.

A friend of mine, a breeder of cresteds, posted this on her facebook recently - breeding good sound dogs is an art form...your the artist...with each litter u have created something unique...and we hope have the new mona lisa...those who think its easy an anyone can do obviously have not really tried...as not everyone is a painter...many rough drafts go into the final draw... 

Also, no one has EVER condemed anyone for not knowing the dangers of a BYB. The anger is at those who KNOW and purchase anyway because they want a cheaper dog. It is no different than supporting a puppy mill. "Oh, I know that puppy mills are bad. I know that I've just encouraged that mill to buy even more females and lock them in tiny poop infested cages. But oh well, I got a good deal"


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