# GSD Runt of litter



## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

Hello... We have decided to purchase a GSD puppy and he is the runt of the litter... He looks like he is a couple of weeks younger than the other pups but he is healthy and active... I was just wandering if it is a bad idea to pick the runt.. Do they have health issues or do they grow up to be normal dogs? This is my first GSD and I don't know much about them... Any advice would be greatly appreciated... Thank you...


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Most runts grow up to be normal dogs. The smallest puppy from our last litter is now actually one of the biggest and thicker boned. :shrug:


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Most runts grow up to be normal dogs.


Agreed!


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

Thanks you so much...


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## Stogey (Jun 29, 2010)

My first GSD was the runt of the litter, he grew to be 110lbs of solid muscle and fur !!!  
He was half Great Dane on his dad's side, that may have had something to do with it !!! 

In all seriousness tho runts generally grow to be normal sized for the breed.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

I agree with GSDBESTK9

sometimes the smallest ones can be the bigger ones in the end.
but that will depend on many things such as the food, supplements and the environment where the dog will live.

normaly a 2 month old should weight about to 9-12 kg.
dogs with less than 25% of this can recover and have the same weight as the other ones. (this is for working lines) beauty lines are smaller than this I don't know how they should weight cause I just work with german shepherd working lines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Really it depends on if there is any underlying reason that the pup is a runt. 
There can be medical reasons, such as megaesophagus, which can in some cases have a lifelong impact on health.

If it's just a smaller puppy with no underlying medical cause for the smaller size, and the pup is as healthy and vibrant as littermates, then it's not really a worry. And yes, such runts often do grow up to be as larger, or larger, than their littermates.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

On the flip side; Stark was the largest puppy in his litter at 8 weeks - now at 18 months, he is the smallest male of the litter. 

I would ensure that the breeder has beyond a doubt made sure there were no underlying health issues with the smaller puppy and if there weren't I'd say, have fun with your new pup!


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Sigurd was the "runt" of the litter, he is now 77 lbs (just a couple lbs smaller than the other male in the litter). He is perfectly healthy, no health/mental problems. I believe he was the runt because the other male in the litter was 2x the size of him and when I would watch them, it seemed as if the other male always pushed him out of the way when feeding...


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

*Thank you everyone...*

This is a pic of him and his litter mate at 9 weeks old... There is a big difference between the 2... The other was the largest of the litter... The owner said he has been vet checked and got a clean bill of health... She said he is growing alot faster now that he is the only one left... We aren't able to get him a week later than the others because we have to drive 5 hours to his location... I'm just worried because he looks so tiny...


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

Sorry they are 7 weeks old in this pic... My mistake...


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

he's a little smaller than the other one, but if he's healthy and eats well there's no problem with him.

sometimes the puppy weight has to do with the number of puppies in the litter and the quality of the mother's milk. it doesn't mean that he's not healthy. in side of the litter he was not the strongest puppy in terms of caracter. normaly the most dominant puppies are the biggest ones as they fight for the best **** for the better milk.

well wish you all the best with your new puppy. he looks adorable


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

Thank you so much... I thought they were almost 9 weeks and I just found out they are 7 weeks today... So i don't feel so bad about him being smaller now... She says he is very active and playful so I guess he is fine... I'll love him either way =)


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

*alayahsmom said:*
*"She said he is growing alot faster now that he is the only one left..."*

see that's what he needs. he was not growing and eating propally cause of the other puppies in the litter. 

my dog's sister was one of the biggest on their litter but when she went to her new home the owner already had an adult GSD male and he didn't let her eat propally and now she's not the biggest anymore. as I said before it has to do with the environment where the puppy lives.


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

Thank you... I feel much better about him being smaller now =)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

What concerns me is the fact that he is 7 weeks old and the only one left of the litter.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> What concerns me is the fact that he is 7 weeks old and the only one left of the litter.


^^ This..

I would start asking questions on their breeding program. I would also ask why the puppy was not fed so that he/she could get the needed nutrients.

On a side question to breeders....

If there is a runt of the litter, do you separate it so that it can get enough to eat to grow properly. I ask this because our youngest boxer was NOT. She was grossly underweight and covered in scabs.


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

They are not "breeders" both parents are family pets... This is their second litter... I asked why he was he last and she said he was the darkest of the litter and the smallest... She said everyone wanted the light larger pups... He has no eating or skin issues just smaller than the others... He is active and the mother fed him just as well as the others... She had 9 all together... She assures me that he is healthy and has been vet checked... I was concerned about him being the last as well... He was 1 of 3 males in the litter...


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

one more question, the dog is from a working line or a beauty line?
do you know how much is he weighting right now at 7 weeks?

*elisabeth_00117 said:*
*"What concerns me is the fact that he is 7 weeks old and the only one left of the litter."*

sometimes that's not important my dog was one of the biggest in his litter and now they have 1 yrs old and he's the biggest one. and when I went to get him it was only him and other male left and actually they where both the biggest males in the litter.


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

He is from a working line... I'm not concerened much about his looks... Just his health... He will be a family pet... If he is slightly on the smaller side I will be fine with that as long as he is healthy... Mother is 92lbs and daddy is 104lbs... So both parents are on the larger side...


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Molly was the runt and she was much smaller than some of her littermates but now has caught up in size to most of the females. She was also partially bottle fed and was on subq's to start with.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So they are breeding pets that are way out of standard for size. At that size, I would be really surprised that they are truly working line. Also, have the parents been OFA'd? Have these pets done anything to earn a title in obedience? Even just as a measure of their temperaments?

There are a lot of things that 'could' be wrong and by going to a reputable breeder you will be able to stack the deck in your favor. HD, DM, alergies, etc. Buying this puppy is definitely a crap shoot. It's anybody's guess what the health might be a year from now because he's coming from a BYB instead of a reputable breeder who tests the parents and have proven dogs.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

*Jax08 said:*
*"So they are breeding pets that are way out of standard for size. At that size, I would be really surprised that they are truly working line."*

yes working line GSD are out of the standard for size. the standard for size and weight that you know and read in the books are for the beauty line dogs. 
there's nothing wrong with them for being out of standard. actually they're the truly GSD. 

my dog is from a working line and he's 1 yrs old (october 3) and already pass the standard size of an adult GSD. when he was 10 months he had 90lbs now has a little more and 67cm. and he's still growing till 3 yrs old. his dad has 111lbs so there's a chance that my dog will be like that.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Marytess said:


> yes working line GSD are out of the standard for size. the standard for size and weight that you know and read in the books are for the beauty line dogs.
> there's nothing wrong with them for being out of standard. actually they're the truly GSD. .


 
No, the standard is not just for "beauty line dogs".

And working line dogs are not typically outside the standard for size. Sure, some are but that happens on occasion with all the lines. But of the main types of GSD, the working lines are actually the ones most likely to be within standard.

No, there is nothing wrong with an individual dog being outside of standard. But many would argue there is a lot wrong with intentionally breeding dogs outside of the standard, or making large size a main priority (especially if it's prioritized over far more important things like temperament and health).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Marytess said:


> *J*
> 
> *yes working line GSD are out of the standard for size.* the standard for size and weight that you know and read in the books are for the beauty line dogs.
> *there's nothing wrong with them for being out of standard. actually they're the truly GSD. *
> ...


I wasn't asking if working line dogs are bred over standard. I was stating the size of those parents from the litter are out of standard so I would be very surprised if they are actually working line as working line are NOT over sized dogs. The parents of your dog are way over standard size also so I'm guessing that breeder wasn't to great either.

*Working line dogs are generally not out of standard for size.* To state that working line dogs are normally bred over the standard size as your post implies is just not correct in any way. 

*Dogs bred to be this large are most definitely NOT true GSDs.* That is also very incorrect. Nor are the standards for "beauty line dogs", I'm assuming you mean conformation by that statement.

You should do some research on this if you think otherwise. 

I think you missed the point of my post. That was that these puppies are coming from a backyard breeder. The OP is concerned about the health of this puppy because it is the runt. Being the runt does not make the puppy unhealthy. However, buying from a backyard breeder is increasing the chances of buying a dog with health problems that may not show up for a year such as HD, ED, EPI, SIBO, allergies, DM, etc.


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

I wasn't at all concerned about how big the dog would be or what line he is from... Just that he came from a loving family home because we are buying him for our 3 year old daughter... If he is bigger or smaller than average I will not love him any less because he is just going to be a family pet... Just concerned about him being the smallest out of the litter... Thanks for the info because I do not know much about the breed... My husband had one as a child and has wanted one for years so I gave in... As long as he is happy and healthy I wouldn't ask for more...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you really need to look at the temperaments of the parents. Are they dog aggressive? Weak nerved? Any phobias? How are they with other animals? What is their energy level? Have any of the puppies from teh other litter had any health or temperaments problems?

Being the runt of the litter would be the least of my concerns. It's the long term health problems that could come from a breeder who is just breeding a couple of pets.

Buying a dog for a toddler isn't always the best things to do. Are you aware that GSD puppies are called land sharks? They bite a lot. Not to be aggressive, just because they are what they are.  There are lots of threads on puppies biting and how to deal with it. Don't let that deter you because right next to those threads are great pics of toddlers with their GSDs! But it is a stage you need to be prepared for and know how to handle.

I just think you need to do some more research on breeders, the breed itself and the training you'll need to do.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Well, what we are trying to say is that purchasing a puppy from a breeder who breeds out of standard, non titled, non health certified (hips, elbows, etc.) is a risk - even for a family pet.

"As long as he is happy and healthy I wouldn't ask for more..."

Getting a puppy from a "breeder" (I use this term lightly) who does not do the above will NOT guarentee a healthy and happy puppy/dog. That is what we are saying.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Marytess said:


> one more question, the dog is from a working line or a beauty line?
> do you know how much is he weighting right now at 7 weeks?
> 
> *elisabeth_00117 said:*
> ...


I am not saying that getting the last puppy out of the litter or the runt is a bad thing... read my post.

I am saying that if all of the other littermates have been sold and they are only 7 weeks NOW - how old were the puppies sold previous to this one "the runt"? 5-6 weeks? Obviously not a reputable breeder, even for a BYB.

That alone will cause MANY problems later on...


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

I have done ALOT of research the past couple of months about the breed and having them around children... That is partially why we have decided to get one... I haven't read anything bad about them with children just that they chew on everything... Also I have asked all of the obvious questions, temperment, drive, phobias and they answered with what I wanted to hear... The owner has 3 children ass well and her dogs are great with their kids... Not sure what its worth as far as hip issues seeing how they generally appear as adults but the puppy comes with a health and a 2 year hip guarranty... Neither of the parents have health issues or allergies at this point... I stressed that issue alot before I confirmed on buying the puppy... The mother is 3 and the daddy is a little over 2 years of age... So neither of his parents are older dogs... I also asked about the previous litter (it was only of 5) but she said they are all healthy happy dogs...


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

*Chris Wild:*
*"But of the main types of GSD, the working lines are actually the ones most likely to be within standard."

*No mostly they're out of the standard at least here in europe. don't know there in the US. that's why working lines can't be in dog show exhibitions like the beauty lines. that's how it works in europe. 

*Jax08 said:*
*"The parents of your dog are way over standard size also so I'm guessing that breeder wasn't to great either."
*
actually the breeder is very good, the best in my country. he breeds dogs for most than 30 yrs now. and breed and trained dogs for the police. now he just trains dogs of civilians. 

*Jax08 said:*
*"You should do some research on this if you think otherwise."*
yes I done all the research and I'm learning more and more every day with my teacher from the dog's school which is the breeder of my dogs.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

*elisabeth_00117 said:*
*"I am not saying that getting the last puppy out of the litter or the runt is a bad thing... read my post.

I am saying that if all of the other littermates have been sold and they are only 7 weeks NOW - how old were the puppies sold previous to this one "the runt"? 5-6 weeks? Obviously not a reputable breeder, even for a BYB."

*yes I know what you mean, I was just saying that sometimes the last puppy or the runt one can be a bad thing or not. we just need to know the facts and everything about them. 
sorry for that.


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

She let the other puppies go yesterday... They were 7 weeks old... I think it is young as well but mine will be 8 weeks which I find common...


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I had a so-called runt once, he grew to be so big that people thought he was part Great Dane. He couldn't be shown because he was too tall.


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## alayahsmom (Oct 25, 2010)

LOL... He must have been big... Thank you for sharing...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Marytess said:


> *Chris Wild:*
> *"But of the main types of GSD, the working lines are actually the ones most likely to be within standard."
> 
> *No mostly they're out of the standard at least here in europe. don't know there in the US. that's why working lines can't be in dog show exhibitions like the beauty lines. that's how it works in europe.


I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Working lines can show in the conformation shows, and many do, but they are not seen at the big conformation shows because they are not the right "type". But it has nothing to do with size. On average the German show lines who participate in those shows are larger than working lines.

It is this way the world over. US working lines are no different or smaller than those in Europe (heck, most working lines in the US are imports from Europe, or their parents were). Read the breed surveys of the working lines, visit the SchH clubs where they train, or just watch some Youtube videos (the WUSV is going on right now in Spain) and it's quite clear that the majority of working lines are NOT over standard in size.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

*Chris Wild said:*
*"I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Working lines can show in the conformation shows, and many do, but they are not seen at the big conformation shows because they are not the right "type". But it has nothing to do with size."*

my dog is a little over the standard size (for both lines working and beauty) and he can't go to this shows same as the other dogs in my training school that are all from working lines. they go there and the judges said you have a great dog but he can't compete in this shows. so yes it has to do with the size and weight and sometimes with color too. 

and I know that they have standard size/weight tables for both lines. and I said that working lines are bigger(weight) than the beauty lines. and you can't say that this is not true.

*"and it's quite clear that the majority of working lines are NOT over standard in size." *

yes in the working lines no, but if you see the standard size of the other line they are over it. and normaly this shows rules are from the beauty lines standard. at least it's what I know and hear and read about. 

*"On average the German show lines who participate in those shows are larger than working lines"*
they look larger but if you see their weight they weight less than working lines dogs.

sorry if I didn't explained my self right and sorry for my english not the best.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

@*Chris Wild *

I saw your site here on the net (Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan, by Wildhaus Kennels )
by the way you have some good dogs.

just to know may I ask what is the size/weight average of your dogs.
for example your males GSD Kaiser or Wulf? they look great by the way.
and the female too. 
please if you don't mind.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Marytess said:


> they go there and the judges said you have a great dog but he can't compete in this shows. so yes it has to do with the size and weight and sometimes with color too


I think you have gotten the wrong idea of what they are saying. They CAN enter the shows, but they will not be competitive because they do not have the currently favored physical appearance in the shows.

In Germany, breeding dogs of working lines have a show rating and breed survey the same as the dogs of the "beauty lines" as you call them. How do they accomplish that if they are not within standard size and don't go to the shows.



Marytess said:


> and I know that they have standard size/weight tables for both lines. and I said that working lines are bigger(weight) than the beauty lines. and you can't say that this is not true.


A working line *may* weigh more than a show line of the same height because it is heavier muscled. But no, in general working lines are not larger than show lines. Especially not in the way that size is measured, which is by height not really weight.



Marytess said:


> @*Chris Wild *
> 
> just to know may I ask what is the size/weight average of your dogs.
> for example your males GSD Kaiser or Wulf? they look great by the way.
> and the female too.


Kais 25" and 88lbs, Wulf 24.5" and 83lbs, Nara 22" 65lbs, Raven 23.5" 75lbs, Della 22.5" 65lbs, Heidi 22" 60lbs. All working lines, all well within breed standard. Even the largest, Kaiser, who is big compared to most working line males, is within standard.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

> *Chris Wild*
> Kais 25" and 88lbs, Wulf 24.5" and 83lbs, Nara 22" 65lbs, Raven 23.5" 75lbs, Della 22.5" 65lbs, Heidi 22" 60lbs. All working lines, all well within breed standard. Even the largest, Kaiser, who is big compared to most working line males, is within standard.


mine are a little bigger and they are only 1 yrs old.

Buster (october 3, 2009) is 26.4" and 91lbs
Maggy (october 26, 2009) is 25.2" and 80lbs 

now they'll not grow in height but they'll grow larger till 3 yrs old.


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