# What differences does a working dog have from a non working one



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Hello everyone , so my question is basically this what differences (responsibilities,temperament of the dog etc.) will i notice between a working dog and a non working one?I imagine a dog confident in any enviroment , confident around people and dogs (not scared of dogs to protect himself) , more energetic and suspicious of people if its a personal protection one(maybe agressive).Am i close? Thanks


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I believe any well bred German Shepherd should be confident, able to relax yet be energetic. Having a trained personal protection dog is way above and beyond that. Is that what you are speaking about in the end of your statement? Know your breeder, look at the dogs, ask questions about their pedigrees. There are many good breeder of Working Line and Show line GSDs.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

any gsd, working or non, should be confident in new environments (not overly skittish, show some curiosity, etc) and should be aloof but not suspicious of strangers. working dogs shouldn't be suspicious of every person they see and they should never be aggressive towards someone simply because they are a stranger.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Personally, the biggest difference I see is the energy level and drives of a working line are higher than those of a non working line. While it is true that a well bred German Shepherd should be confident, etc., you have to do your research to know and find a well bred German Shepherd. It's not puppies in someone's back yard, nor someone who has a website and has bred a lot of litters. The breeder should be 'doing something' with his or her dogs other than breeding them and there should be all the health tests being done prior to breeding. But that is a whole different thread, and one that can be found already on here.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For a German Shepherd, I feel that the difference between a working and non working dog,.....is a dog that is confident and willing to perform( the work) outside of their home or territory. Whether it be herding, seeing eye dog, tracking, search and rescue, military, LE, etc, these are the functions that the German Shepherd has proven to excel and should have the traits to do at least one of these tasks.
There are other things such as guard dog/home protector that they have been utilized as, but unlike the Doberman which was created for that type of work, the herding dog has a wider range of function.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Also don't get intimidated by WLs as I have been for decades. I have one now and she is fabulous. She does need a good amount of play and exercise every day to be the dog she is. But there are days when I am not up to it and she adjusts. I would say that the most important trait of a WL is confidence and stability. You don't want a neurotic worker. Check the parents and don't get impressed by websites alone as WLs can be a way of marketing. 
And...as a bonus: their beauty.


----------



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

In some of my walks with my dog , even through i avoid them , there are stray dogs that come on us barking (no attacks so far thank god) and my dog is very scared and takes a stance with the head and ears low and tries to run away while on leash.On the contrary my cousins pitbull will react confident and will bark (ready to fight).So when i thought about gsd i knew it was a herding dog , if that was wolves attacking he should have reacted with conficence and attacked those dogs/wolves to protect the sheep.Am i right or am i missing something?I believe it to be a temperament fault in my dog. (weak nerves??)


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

How old is your dog Jaspar?


----------



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Chances are your dog has genetically weak nerves and lacks confidence. Nerve has a strong genetic component, and unfortunately breed alone does not dictate nerve strength in each individual dog. And confidence doesn't always mean rising to the occasion and barking - a fear based response can also be reactive, meaning when something is "scary", the dog barks, hackles, and tries to appear more imposing so that the other dog or threat does not approach. There's a dog in my current obedience class that is the classic fear reactive dog. Hackles up, body turned, ears down, snarling at any dog that passes by. In my opinion, confidence is calm and collected.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jaspar said:


> In some of my walks with my dog , even through i avoid them , there are stray dogs that come on us barking (no attacks so far thank god) and my dog is very scared and takes a stance with the head and ears low and tries to run away while on leash.On the contrary my cousins pitbull will react confident and will bark (ready to fight).So when i thought about gsd i knew it was a herding dog , if that was wolves attacking he should have reacted with conficence and attacked those dogs/wolves to protect the sheep.Am i right or am i missing something?I believe it to be a temperament fault in my dog. (weak nerves??)


I am not so sure why you would want your dog to fight other dogs. If your dog is acting fearful, could it be because it is on a leash, can't get away and does not trust you to defend him or back him up? If he would fight and got his ear ripped off, would you be happy with that outcome? 

I would not compare your dog to other breeds not even remotely related for the purpose for which they are bred. You will only disappoint yourself and not appreciate the great qualities in your own breed.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, you need to step in front of him, make yourself big and in the strongest voice tell these dogs to "GO HOME!" For that purpose I also use a referee whistle. Very effective but you need to get your own dog used to the noise first. Then as soon as you see another dog coming, get that whistle ready. I blast if full strength when the dog is heading my way while keeping my own dog behind me.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

If you believe your dog has a temperment flaw, he/she will act accordingly. I have seen this many many times. If, on the other hand, you work with (and unconditionally love) the dog in front of you, they'll also act accordingly. 
I have never had a dog that eventually was not well adjusted and very confident. That being said, I've also never had a dog that bit another human being, though they were great watch dogs. IMHO you should stop measuring your dog against a standard of any kind, and start helping him or her be the dog you him/her to be - proud and confident


----------



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> How old is your dog Jaspar?


He is 20 and a half months old.


----------



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, you need to step in front of him, make yourself big and in the strongest voice tell these dogs to "GO HOME!" For that purpose I also use a referee whistle. Very effective but you need to get your own dog used to the noise first. Then as soon as you see another dog coming, get that whistle ready. I blast if full strength when the dog is heading my way while keeping my own dog behind me.


Been there , done that.But i dont understand why all of a suddent all the answers are focused how i should protect my dog , while i am just asking if that is normal gsd behaviour. (the whole point of my thread is just to learn about the true german shepherd - working line dogs , i am not asking for help on how to protect him or how to make him not be afraid of other dogs , i am just studying his behaviour and i ask you to compare it to working dogs, based on your experience if you have any).Also i dont want my dog to fight other dogs , nor have i mentioned anywhere such a thing , only thing i say is that a gsd (based on my knowledge) protects sheep from wolves , shouldn't he (and every other gsd out there not only mine) be confident in stressful situations like dogs coming barking on him or even attacking (shouldnt he fight back?)?


----------



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

The purpose of this thread is purely for learning purposes.I am not asking help on any issue with my dog , i am just studying him and compare him with working line dogs.(here i am expecting you guys/girls to tell me the differences based on your experiences).Thanks.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't think what you're looking at is a WL thing. I think you're seeing exactly what you thought it was, but its not specific to any type, line, or breed. Any dog can be confident or insecure. All dogs are going to feel the need to defend themselves at some point. Yours thinks running is the best plan in what you've seen, maybe in a different location or circumstance, he'd want to defend himself. I honestly think you figured out everything there is to it.


----------



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't think what you're looking at is a WL thing. I think you're seeing exactly what you thought it was, but its not specific to any type, line, or breed. Any dog can be confident or insecure. All dogs are going to feel the need to defend themselves at some point. Yours thinks running is the best plan in what you've seen, maybe in a different location or circumstance, he'd want to defend himself. I honestly think you figured out everything there is to it.


So basically being confident around dogs isnt a WL thing.But what if i want a dog able to protect my sheep from wolves?Shouldn't i choose a working line?Because my dog seems unable to do protection work when it comes to other dogs , from what i have seen so far. (i dont want my dog to fight other dogs , i am just saying what i have seen based on my experiences with my dog)


----------



## jaspar (Oct 12, 2016)

What difference will it make for me having a working line (personal protection i have in mind here when im talking about WL) vs a non working line dog?(Will the dog need more time from my part? etc.) Is a working line wasted without proper training?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

They're still going to have individual temperaments. A working line dog should have strong drives and nerves, but you're question is kinda tough to answer. You can't change temperament, so there's only so much you can overcome no matter how much time you spend. Drives are what a dog operates on, but nerves are what makes them useful. Its not that a wl is wasted without proper training, what they do will depend on the dog though.


----------



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

jaspar said:


> So basically being confident around dogs isnt a WL thing.But what if i want a dog able to protect my sheep from wolves?Shouldn't i choose a working line?Because my dog seems unable to do protection work when it comes to other dogs , from what i have seen so far. (i dont want my dog to fight other dogs , i am just saying what i have seen based on my experiences with my dog)


Being confident is a GSD thing. It's not solely in WL or SL, it's supposed to be all across the board. What I said earlier about them all not upholding this breed standard is the fact that you can get dogs from breeders who do not consider temperament and nerves to be the most important thing when producing dogs. The first thing I said to my breeder is that I wanted moderate drive, to which she replied, "drives are important to consider, but what's most important is nerves".

I've seen plenty show line become SAR dogs, herding dogs, you name it. Heck, I would imagine a lot of the show lines in Germany are quite serious. But it depends on what was produced from the parents, and star parents can produce offspring without an ounce of what the parents had to offer. Some dogs are more serious than others, some are more laid back regardless of line. Nerves are mostly genetic, and it's our job to nurture that genetic trait to its full potential. This is why it's important to be clear about your intentions when you select a dog what you want to do with it, and know that whomever you choose to purchase from consistently works or places such dogs successfully in those scenarios.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Being confident is a GS trait...but many breeders today are overlooking this trait for beauty, size, and color. Thus we have many reputable breeders breeding dogs that don't exhibit this trait anymore...or very little of it.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I heard not too long ago that the organizers of an American German shepherd specialty show were asked not to make announcements over the PA system when dogs were in the ring, as it was frightening some of the dogs! :frown2:

Um, breed standard, anyone?? 



> The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be
> nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness
> must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring.


http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf?_ga=2.112677764.1676753127.1503329990-1242717656.1501361476


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Being confident is a GS trait...but many breeders today are overlooking this trait for beauty, size, and color. Thus we have many reputable breeders breeding dogs that don't exhibit this trait anymore...or very little of it.


Tongue in cheek? How can they be reputable if their dogs aren't confident?


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> I heard not too long ago that the organizers of an American German shepherd specialty show were asked not to make announcements over the PA system when dogs were in the ring, as it was frightening some of the dogs! :frown2:




Where in the world was this??? 

I've been to countless specialties, and it's a noisy madhouse. Not use the PA system? Really? They are always announcing that someone needs to move a van that is blocking another van. I've never been to a show that didn't make announcements while dogs were in the ring. 

Obedience trials, on the other hand, are like being at the library. Dead quiet. If you so much as scrape your chair accidentally on the floor, you get death stares. Not sure why these highly trained dogs need absolute silence to compete. 

Done ranting.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Dogfaeries, not sure. It was a few years ago, so I don't recall the source. It was someone I respected, though.

Edit: found it! It was posted on another GSD board, back in 2012, and it was an all-breed show, not a specialty, where the GSD folk complained about the PA system. The poster didn't state where the show was held.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Tongue in cheek? How can they be reputable if their dogs aren't confident?


Because things have changed that much ! 

reputatble means having done health checks to minimize genetic problems

it means that you somewhat adhere to a standard --- and that depends on which "club" you belong to because boy oh boy the interpretations couldn't be more different

it means you accurately document breedings and provide registration papers

it is a pacificist state -- keep everyone happy - don't make waves --


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one difference that one would hope for is a genetically maintained ability to be proactive - as in active aggression , and have the ability to protect , be appropriately aggressive .

there is another thread floating around which seems to say that one should not expect a GSD to be anymore than a noise making deterrent 

what is missing is an appropriate level of "sharpness" which the DDR lines maintained - recognizing that this is a fine line but all things GSD are fine-lines often in conflict with each other . That is what makes the breed such a challenge to get right .
The sharpness is an alert awareness . Too many GSD have been dulled down . Makes for great family pets but pushes them closer to the character of the hunting breeds - labs. 


I


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and things were going so well -- and then there was applause 

remember video of some big year end event - Jimmy Moses in the ring -- judge had made decisions --- crowd approved -- and then there was applause and so many dogs spooked and hit the end of the lead 

smooth handlers minimized this , used it as a "we meant to do this" and did one more lap around and headed to the exit


----------

