# "casual" self-stack



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

comments?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Did you remove the photo? I can't get it to come up no matter what I do.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The photo is still there. Beautiful dog!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it's still showing for me. 

rob, he is watching our neighbor in the garden. She brought him some chicken soup last week; I think he is hoping for more!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well that didn't work either lol

never mind


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And its back. LOL Not sure why Photobucket does this to me.

Only negatives that really stand out are a flat withers and very straight pasterns. I would like to see a tighter foot, the croup could be longer.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

He is absolutely gorgeous! How old is he?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Lisa and/or Dianerra-
I'm really curious if this is a good example of where the front bone structure is misleading based on the coat pigmentation. In this dog, it's almost as if you can see the front stand out due to the coloring of the coat. However, if that's the case, then this dog has a very straight front lacking angulation and having a short upper arm.

Now, if the coat IS misleading, then that would mean that the point where the humerus meets the scapula is much higher. I hope Dianerra doesn't mind me fiddling with her photo below. If you read the front based on the coat markings, then it would look like the bottom representation. But if you read it without the coat markings, then it might look a bit more like the top representation.










We often hear of the need to see "beyond the coat" and I suspect this is exactly such a case. Which photo correctly identifies the front structure? Her dog's coat throws me off when I try to read the front end.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thanks wildo that was educational, if YOU have this much trouble getting a handle on it then.....

so what is the problem with high pasterns??

if the dog head/neck is raised at that angle would not the withers have to flatten out???

real nice dog - i know zip about conformation - my boy and yours look like litter mates, mine is just slightly better tho...jk


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

x11 said:


> thanks wildo that was educational, if YOU have this much trouble getting a handle on it then.....
> 
> so what is the problem with high pasterns??
> 
> if the dog head/neck is raised at that angle would not the withers have to flatten out???


Me??? Haha- I'm just a newbie trying to figure things out. So I'll continue to have trouble! hahaha

The problem with high pasterns is that they do not allow for shock absorption when the dog jumps (or rather- when the dog lands from a jump).

Personally, I don't think the withers are flat. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. I would think though that it's opposite of what you wrote. If the dog raises his head, the muscles tightening on the top of the neck (to pull up the head) should cause the withers to look more angled. It's when those muscles release, lowering the head, that I'd think the withers could look more flat.

Anyway- I'm still learning. Don't take what I say as truth! haha! That cracked me up....


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Wildo, yeah the coat makes it misleading. Singe doesn't have an exact 90degree angulation (I doubt many dogs do) but he is pretty close. The top photo is a pretty decent representation of what it's like to have your hands on him.

Also, his pasterns aren't quite as straight as they look in the photo. Until she mentioned it, I didn't notice how bad it looks. 

He could definitely use a little improvement on the croup. His doesn't have hare feet, thank goodness. But I can see that there is always room for improvement.

All in all, I'm really pleased with how he is turning out. 

a little better photo of his pasterns. Just the rest of the photo is a bad stack. lol


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

PatchonGSD said:


> He is absolutely gorgeous! How old is he?


he's 22 months


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

everyone is an expert compared to my current knowledge. i am just trying to work out if this knowledge is worth the time investment learning cos it all seems so opinion based and people give different opinions just cos a dog moved a leg an inch further forward than the last photo etc.

so is it high pasterns, long ones or just the angle they make to the ground that would be a problem.

i try and think this thru like an engineer - don't know if that is the way to approach it - mechanics is mechanics whether it be dog or vehicle suspension system.

sorry to OP for distraction.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

no problem. I'm learning also. And looking at it from an engineering perspective is an easy way to do it  

I think part of it is that it's really hard to tell from photos. As Wildo said, the coat pattern can draw the eye a certain way, making it look like 1 thing when it is something else. 
Think of taking a photo of a car from the front quarter panel toward the rear vs a straight on view of the side. There will be details that you can see in the 2nd view that are hidden in the first shot.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Dainerra said:


> Wildo, yeah the coat makes it misleading. Singe doesn't have an exact 90degree angulation (I doubt many dogs do) but he is pretty close. The top photo is a pretty decent representation of what it's like to have your hands on him.


Ah!! Thanks Dainerra. Nice to have just a little confirmation on what I THINK I see... Singe was a tough one for me to read- the "lines" in his coat plus his awesome muscling up front really pulled my eye to a much shallower front-- one that I was pretty confident couldn't _actually_ be that shallow. I didn't mean to draw those bones at 90, as I agree very few dogs do seem to have such a strong angle. Then again, I've seen some showline dogs who sure looked close! Anyway, thanks again- glad to know I wasn't completely off. 

x11- Not to completely thread jack, but there's tons of info in my dog's critique thread. Specifically check out the links that Carmspack posted. They will help you immensely (at least they did me).


I do still wonder why Lisa would say the withers are flat. I was under the impression that in a stack, the dog's front legs are positioned directly under the top of the scapula, which is the point of the withers. So in the initial picture of Singe, I see a sharp angle there- not flat at all. I agree that the top line flows down into a relatively flat back, but then the dog isn't actually stacked... I assume the back will drop a bit while stacked and the withers will continue to flow into a slightly sloping back. Is this thought process incorrect? What am I missing?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thanks for link, will read it.

a got a thread in this sub-forum on my pup from 12+ months ago - will post a current pic back in that thread for opinion - already told he is an ugly one.

thanks for info.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Neither. IMO you have the point of shoulder too high in both photos making the upper arm look longer than it is (the upper arm is the bone above the elbow). Unfortunately the original has vanished on me again.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, much better photo of his front. Flat withers, OK topline, I would like to see a smoother line between his loin into his croup and the croup could be a bit longer. Good angulation in front, his upper arm should be longer. Very good angulation in the rear. I would still like to see firmer feet.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

lhczth said:


> Neither. IMO you have the point of shoulder too high in both photos making the upper arm look longer than it is (the upper arm is the bone above the elbow). Unfortunately the original has vanished on me again.


Ultimately, my question was how do you know? How do you "see" the point of shoulder when the dog's coat and markings mislead you to see something different? How do you look "beneath the skin?" I can't see the point of shoulder on this dog- I put it where I thought it probably was... There are a few dogs that come up where I have a hard time seeing the point of shoulder.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How is through experience. Photos can be deceiving, but you learn to follow the lines and ignore certain optical illusions (fore chests in some dogs can make them appear to have much better shoulders than they do). 

The worst species I have ever had to judge was sheep. They are judged by feeling their structure through their wool. I was terrible at it (though more because we also had to evaluate their meat qualities and not just the structure). Our breed is fairly easy compared to some since even in most of the long stock you can still see the structure under the hair. 

Obviously the best way to know if what you are seeing is correct is by watching the dog move.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

lhczth said:


> How is through experience. Photos can be deceiving, but you learn to follow the lines and ignore certain optical illusions (fore chests in some dogs can make them appear to have much better shoulders than they do).


This is something I definitely agree with you on. It took me a bit, but I have come to my own conclusion that the front of the chest can be quite misleading in some dogs! So at least I'm ahead of the game there... Still hard to see that shoulder point sometimes. I guess I'll just have to keep trying. :crazy:


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