# training/aggression ?



## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

We are set to start training with a trainer recommended by our breeder. We are starting with Ob. & some basic agility.
However, this trainer's "specialty" training is in Personal Protection. Our breeder has her dogs trained in this manner & believes that it creates a better disciplined and more controlled & confident dog. In talking with friends, family etc, they express concern that this type of training will only serve to increase aggression & lead to potential problems. I am looking for some thoughts & opinions & even others experiences with this. Ruger is a family pet...he is not ment to be a "guard" dog, he lives in our home & is part of our family. It is important to us that we have a well trained and "stable" dog. So does PP training increase this or is it going to encourage aggression?? (Sorry if this post should be in the training section-I asked here because of the possible relation to aggression)
Thanks!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If you're not interested in personal protection training, don't do it.







A well trained dog is a well trained dog, no matter what discipline you choose, so focus on the kinds of training that interest you. There are many ways to have a well behaved, stable family companion who is controlled and confident. I hope that your breeder is not representing personal protection training as the only (or even necessarily the best) way to go about that, and is trying to steer you in that direction in spite of your reservations. Whether or not your reservations have any basis in fact are, to me, totally beside the point. That's not where your interests lie. 

Basic obedience training and a fun activity like agility will accomplish the very same thing, and most breeders are happy if their puppy owners do SOMETHING with their dogs. Doesn't really matter what that something is as long as the puppy is an active member of the family and gets an appropriate level of exercise, socialization, and basic training.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I believe perhaps you are talking about Schutzhund? definitely different then what most people refer to as protection training. it is a large part obedience, part tracking, and then the protection phase. is it the only route to a well-rounded dog? of course not. 
but it won't make your dog aggressive. but I'll let more expert people weigh in on that as I've never trained, but would love to!


----------



## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

No not Schutzhund...the trainer is very clear that it is "real life" protection training & Not sport.

Thank you Cassidys mom...I was feeling somewhat uncomfortable with the "push" for this type of training. I definately want him to have a way to increase his socialization & training, etc & just give him a chance to work off some of his energy & have a mental outlet! I will definately look into Agility & other options further. He has shown an increased "aggression & bullying behvaiour lately with other dogs & so we have been looking at ways to address this & have a "happier" all around dog!


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

PP training will not increase aggression. That's a myth.

But if it is something you are not interested in doing, don't do it. 

By the way, what kind of dog is Ruger? Does he come from a show line or working line? I assume because you want a family dog, you or your breeder selected a low-medium drive dog?


----------



## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

I must admit I'm not as knowledageable as I'd like to be! (learning more & more as we go)We knew we wanted a GSD and looked for a breeder in our area. We found one that offered pups that were CKC registered and had references and health tests on the parents, etc. At first glance all looked well. We brought him home & of course love him dearly & wouldn't trade him for anything. That said I think things weren't as "up front" as we had thought with the breeder. She has never produced his CKC papers (we got him at 12 weeks old back in January) so I can't say for certain his lines, but we were told that his mother was imported from Czech & is working lines & his sire is (we were told) working German lines. We were very clear that we wanted a family pet & definately would be looking for a low-med drive..I think he actually seems to be a "high" drive dog. The trainer is to assess this with us next week. Honestly I think she sold us the pup she wanted the most $ for at the time (her "pick" of the litter). I know he has turned out to be much larger then any of the other pups from his litter (and much bigger then then the breeder had expected). 
Thank you for your thoughts on the PP...while I'm not particuairly interested in this type of training my husband is. I would like to do something fun with Ruger, and he has definately become much more "my" dog. I feed him and do most of the daily care/excercise & would love for my husband to have something he can do that interests him & could increase their bond as well. But I was not wanting him to do it if it could/would increase any aggression in Ruger as he grows. For now we are starting with the OB & will go from there!


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Im always a bit leery of anyone who says they do "real" protection training. or "real" anything for that matter. definitely don't let them talk you into doing anything that you aren't interested in. depending on the trainer, some DO make a dog aggressive by faulty training techniques. they don't understand that a fearful dog does not equal a protective one.

not saying this trainer is one of those, just that, done incorrectly, it IS a slippery slope


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Max has had some "aggression training" and, done wrong, it almost can't be undone. Typically the trainers (though not all), might be good at the protection part, but aren't so good about the self-control part, and teaching the "off switch". Go to any dog trials where there are K9 officers, and you will notice the dogs that either don't listen because they are too hyped, or cannot be called off and the handler has to physically stop the dog. Most of these dogs are on training collars that can cause pain, some on electric collars for safety issues. Physical restraint is most often necessary to control these dogs in these situations.

Went to a seminar once by Steve White:
http://karenpryoracademy.com/White_Steve
and he talked about the fundamental problems in the way that a lot of this type of training is done. Personally, unless you had a very unique trainer, I wouldn't do it, it's too risky for the permanent damage that can be done for your dog.

Btw, I don't think it makes your dog more aggressive, but I think there are a lot of other issues with it.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

"Aggression training" from my understanding usually seems to involve working on increasing and tailoring the natural suspicion of a dog. NOT something I would ever do with a puppy. Puppies should be nosy, inquisitive, and love everyone. So if they're trying to tell you to enroll your puppy now to make it more protective...I would try something else. 

It is not the kind of training you can start and not follow through on and you have to have a good trainer. Bad ones will give you an unpredictable fear biter. 

I think it's true that done properly and over the course of the dog's life protection training coupled with a strong foundation in obedience can make for a confident and obedient dog. Hey! That's why we do Schutzhund. I know people like to knock it as just "sport" but I don't need a PP dog and if I did I could take my dog's SchH foundation and work towards it.


----------



## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinPP training will not increase aggression. That's a myth.


If PP training is done incorrectly it certainly can increase aggression in a dog. Saw it happen and saw a couple of good dogs ruined. (just like any other form of training)


----------



## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

As I said PP is something my husnband has shown an interest in...but I'm going to try & look into the Schutzhund more in our area too & see if that would interest him.
When I spoke with the trainer he recommended waiting until Ruger was at least 1 year or older before even looking at starting PP work. He suggested doing a few levels of OB & Agility and then would consider "temperment" testing before moving on to PP training. I don't want to take a chance on doing anything that could "ruin" our boy!! Taking into consideration that we are fairly "novice" dog handlers PP probably isn't the way to go. It sounds like something that if properly trained & maintained it is fine, but again as "newbies" maybe to risky for us! 
Thanks again for all of the insights everyone has shared!!


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

when I read the trainer was "pushing" it, I figured it was the do it now do it now kind of pushy.

waiting till at least one year, stressing obedience and other outlets first before even doing temperament testing sounds like a very balanced and good trainer.


----------



## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

Actually it's the breeder who's "pushing" it...the trainer does "specialize" in this area, but so far he hasn't pushed at all & recommends going slow & getting the basics down first! I'm looking forward to meeting hime in person & seeing how he interacts with Ruger!


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

oh ok. comprehension isn't my strong suit today







well, listen to the trainer. take it slowly and focus on obedience and fun with a young pup. leave the other stuff to decide about when he is older and you know what you will be comfortable with.


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm not a trainer or a breeder, but we've had a number of loved GSDs as family dogs (raised children with them).

Do obedience training and enjoy your dog.

The breed is naturally protective and just the appearance and bark of a GSD is enough to ward away the n'er to wells.

They are an intelligent, loving breed and, if I've ever had a problem, it's with one dog that was naturally too protective of my children.

I personally wouldn't have my dog trained in personal protection and question a breeder who would suggest a new owner into going this direction.

Good luck


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Roo-boyActually it's the breeder who's "pushing" it...the trainer does "specialize" in this area, but so far he hasn't pushed at all & recommends going slow & getting the basics down first! I'm looking forward to meeting him in person & seeing how he interacts with Ruger!


That sounds good!


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Obedience training will keep your husband busy, especially if he starts trialing for titles.







Trained properly, dogs love it, too! 

http://www.doindogs.com/Obedience_trial_rules/index.shtml

He could also start training for the BH title.

http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/loge/4844/BH.html


----------

