# Cero Jivo



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I really like what I have seen of this dog on videos and hear is is a top sport and police type dog. Anyone worked him, seen him worked or seen any of his offspring?

Cero Jivo


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)




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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

He looks cool in those videos. But when i look at a dog i want to see them in trial. See if they can bring that same power and intensity when working on a new helper new field with no leashes or agitation. This should tell you everything you need to know. See that the dog can maintain a high level of control and then still be able to be explosive. Ideally you want to see them at a high level trial but even club trial will provide more insight than a cut together training montage.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip, I'm entirely opposite, I want to see them perform in new areas, unexpected circumstances, unfamiliar terrain, darkness, inside close qtrs, instead of on a field doing something they have done hundreds of time before. The unexpected will always give me better insights into a dog then conditioned responses no matter what the level.
But folks look at things differently depending on your point of reference. No right or wrong just different preferences, but since you are a long time helper in sport and real work, I'm sure you know what you want.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The problem with most videos is that they can be heavily edited and the parts owners don't want people to see can be removed or not shown at all. At least videos of trials are "WYSIWYG" even if they don't show the "whole" dog. Of course seeing the dog in person training, trialing and in other scenarios is ideal.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, that's very true. Also, there are folks that can look at a dog at trial and see the intrinsic....but most folks only see the speed. With videos, which I am not fan of, I do like seeing them in non traditional places with the decoy not doing the same thing in his approach( like throwing things, taking dog into objects, close qtrs, ) and then read the dog from how these things affect him. 
Like you said, nothing substitutes seeing dog in person, both before and after training,as well as the training itself.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I met Ciro two days after he came to the US, his owner brought him to the Nationals in OH.
It was funny because someone walking with our group had on full Carhartts and Cero lit up on him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't know what to say on this dog.

This is a pedigree that I would glance at and pass. There aren't any stabilizers. The pedigree is an example of a "sport" drift.
Yoschy appears twice -- I think a strategic Yoschy once is enough . 
Yoschy brings Fero trhough Troll .
Fero also appears through Troll's brother Timmy , who produced a different type of dog than his brother .
Timmy through Half Rubachtal.

Yoschy brings Uwe Kirschental , and another ancestor on the pedigree brings Uran Kirschental --- dogs that I do like for the old herding genetics they contribute --- BUT --- you have to watch for hips then , at least at the time when they were able to be up close. 

In the training montage the dog has difficulty outing . Every time .
The decoy work is in prey - there is no pressure . The dog catches the material , frontal bites.
High pitched prey bark , excitement . Ever so subtle lofting -- (excitement).

Chip these are 'training' session montage clips -- 



now you go and have a look at what is presented here and tell me what you see 

read books - read dogs ! without going too far pay attention from 35 through to and stop at mark 38 .
What have you just seen?
50 to 55 defense expression 

mark 1:18 to 1:21 worried , lofting , -- even though decoy is taking away pressure by acting as retreating prey

mark 2:30 to 2:34 - dog "lost" -- nose flick and overall expression of face/ears and planting himself leaning back 
2:43 -- defense 
and so on and so forth - decoy never a threat - dog always caught 

5:40's decoy comes out of blind and can walk the dog backwards -- well he could walk the dog backwards to his vehicle - open the door - last moment when sitting and legs in - decoy slips the sleeve and drives off . 

HOLD and bark . The "guy" is to be stopped .

this is interesting around the 6:30 mark a decoy comes out of the blind without the sleeve . The dog is a fair distance back to accommodate the decoy's ability to travel. 
He comes out of the blind without the sleeve !
LISTEN to the dog . Listen over the calamitous music . The dog's voice changes to a yip - stressed yip . 
decoy puts sleeve on and you have a game of tug the sleeve wearing decoy.

familiarity with routine -- the dog barks well in advance of reaching blind two where decoy is 





the dog is showing you what is present within the dog which training can't remove
and that is true of what I would expect from his pedigree


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## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

I could say quite a bit about this based on my experience as a helper. But I don't see a bad dog here. I see a dog who is taking on the man versus what we see so often now where the training/sleeve focus has created some safety for the dog. I like the bloodlines of the father, quite a bit of social aggression there.


I think people are so accustomed to seeing dogs not being really tested that they don't understand anymore when they do see it. Some of that work with the helper in the blind is not pretty but the dog stands up to it well. When a dog like that comes in barking with that kind of power and the helper ignores it and walks toward him, well they are just dogs after all and although he bit toward the hand, (something I have seen the more serious dogs do sometimes versus biting the elbow or frantically pulling to get behind the helper and away from the pressure), he handled it well. I don't see that this is not a good dog. Could the training have been better? Maybe.... in the trial video it appears an electric was used. And some people don't realize how deep an electric correction can get into the dog and shut down the fight drive. But he still looked good there in spite of it. 
The dog is not being handled with kid gloves but he still fights through it and shows himself to be a good dog.


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## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

One more comment since this dog is such a good example. The guarding in the blind in the trial is not the kind of barking we see more nowadays, where the dogs come in, sets up at the same distance they learned to stop on a platform and then bark like a car alarm for the sleeve.....this dog is clearly barking at the man.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes the dog did go through it -- the defense has fight and flight and this dog chose fight .


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think it is very difficult to assess a dog via photos and videos also lead a lot to be desired. I do not think this dog had great foundation training. I agree with Anne's point that Raiser makes, that passive acceptance of a dog's aggression by the helper makes a deep impact on the dog and leads to unsureness, so more bad training. I basically see, by a few videos, a pretty strong dog with a low likelihood of being pushed into flight and that has good active aggression and that is genetically civil. I see the defensive posturing you pointed out Carmen on the stills, but don't see this as a low threshold, reactive, thin nerved dog. I really like the intensity of his guarding. Some might think he is a bit hectic. I am told he is a very social, clear headed dog. He looks to have solid nerves, but all I can go by is a video.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Carmen discusses Yoschy above. Yoschy goes to Fero through Troll bösen Nachbarschaft, but Troll, unlike Timmy, was of his mother's type and a very different dog than Timmy. Yoschy's dam, Mona Döllenwiese, brought a lot of edge or a sharper easier to activate aggression through both her sire and dam. IMO, Yoschy was more his mother's type than his father's. 

I bred an extremely solid female both by phenotype and genotype to a male linebred on Yoschy and I got dogs with strong social aggression that can do sport, but are also quite suitable for police work. I would not breed a dog with much Yoschy up close to a female that already brings a lot of edge.


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## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

I agree about Yoschy and it is always a case of balancing a pedigree. You might get more of one thing than you were looking for with a breeding, make an adjustment in the next breeding and get really balanced dogs. There are dogs who bring things we need but have also been the subject of warnings not to put in the pedigree more than once or twice. Greif zum Launtal was one of those dogs and he is in Yoschy's pedigree. 

But back to what people watch on videos. If you do helperwork and have actually worked dogs for a very long time, you see things that other people miss. Today, it's easier to miss for people not quite as acquainted, because the dogs are very carefully trained and groomed to handle what appears to be pressure. Because of how much things are started with the sleeve focus early on, the dogs don't view the work the same as the way we used to bring them up in protection. We would wait until they were older and then start them using suspicion. Where there was never a question that it was about a bad guy. Dogs who view the work that way, are in a completely different drive than what we see now. 
Now we have more "clever" training where the dog continually gets some relief of what pressure they feel but mostly the conflict and threat has been removed from protection in IPO. When you work a dog more on the serious side, you do have to give the dog relief and that's exactly what I was saying, what Chip just said. I can put a lot of pressure on a dog but I also respect the dog's power. I have the same feeling he has, that the original owner made mistakes. I think dogs like this are very easy for people to make mistakes with because they keep pushing the button they get the response from. They overload the dog in defense, and then they try to correct the dog back down where he can be controlled. That simply does not work. The dogs have to learn to work in a balanced state of drive where they can still think and comply . They should learn to load to that proper drive level through the use of good helper work, so they don't step on the field, overload and then need extreme compulsion to stop them. And then that extreme compulsion can also take the dog out of drive. Obedience affects fight drive, we've known this for years.

Mostly now, the dogs are not working in fight drive so not as necessary to know I guess.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I do see this "I basically see, by a few videos, a pretty strong dog with a low likelihood of being pushed into flight "

can his genetics enable him to be a dog that can discriminate ?

I see there are breedings which bring Yoschy in again backmassing on him.
Maybe too much?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Even though Jane said she saw Cero shortly after he arrived in the states and turned on when he saw someone wearing a hoodie or something, his handler says the dog is very social and clear headed.


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## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

Personally, I never expect a dog to be totally themselves right after they change homes. I think it's unfair to make those kinds of assessments after landing in a strange place, with a strange person,without the handler they know and are bonded with, etc. etc.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Vandal1979 said:


> Personally, I never expect a dog to be totally themselves right after they change homes. I think it's unfair to make those kinds of assessments after landing in a strange place, with a strange person,without the handler they know and are bonded with, etc. etc.


but the dog reacted to the "uniform" of the carharrts -- whether there was reason to or not .
no threat -- nada -- just someone in the adult osh kosh bibbed pants .

that is why I asked whether he can make a good judgment .

dogs with that active aggression don't spark up that readily .

yes he was social after -- In total , from what I have seen , the limited amount of what I have seen I wouldn't be relaxed in a social setting -- he looks worried in too many shots 

he may be equipment crazy - I see sleeve focus -- training which has not helped the dog


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## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

TWO days after he arrived in his new home. I would be more critical of the owner taking the dog into that kind of situation after two days, than I would be critical of the dog. Some dogs don't view the world as a big playground. They are of a more suspicious nature. And those dogs especially, when they change homes, have a little more difficulty. What I have seen in those cases, is an over reaction to things that they would not normally overreact to. 
There really are no fairytale dogs, they all have their moments ....because they are just dogs.

I've never seen the dog, I watched the videos and I've heard the owner talk about how he is in other situations. I have no idea if any of it's true but I certainly do not ever judge a dog from a snapshot. I didn't even look at the pictures. I take a lot of photos of dogs and I can tell you.... you can make a ***** cat of a dog look "vicious", unsure etc, if you push the button at the right time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I was at the same nationals and saw the dog. He was fine, calm and social . I think people have misconstrued Jane's comment, which I believe was an innocent observation most likely related to the similarities of carhartts to a bite suit. There is nothing, in the owners actions other Jane's comment, to criticize.


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## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

Read my comments in the context of the conversation please. I get a little tired of everyone trying to turn discussions about dogs into politics. If I just bought a dog and he barked at someone who looked a little different, I would not consider it a big deal. Sadly, lots of other people do and they turn a molehill into a mountain. As stated clearly, I don't see a problem with the dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I look at the dog from two perspectives...for work especially LE, he is kind of dog I would want to have. For breeding, I think you have to be very knowledgeable about the genotype of the females that are bred to him.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal1979 said:


> Personally, I never expect a dog to be totally themselves right after they change homes. I think it's unfair to make those kinds of assessments after landing in a strange place, with a strange person,without the handler they know and are bonded with, etc. etc.


I agree, and it was clear that Cero was acting independently because of the lack of bond to his new handler/owner. Though he was very clear with communication when handler told him to chill. 
The person in the carhartt overalls was a bit unnerved by it, though. lol
I was surprised that the owner did bring him there, it was to show him off, and they did bitework in a remote area on the grounds. Cero didn't really seemed phased by his new world, or the new handler.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

From what I've followed, Cero is producing well....and his owner is careful in who he breeds him to. He doesn't allow breedings willy nilly.


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## BalkanBoy (Dec 3, 2015)

*right on*



carmspack said:


> this is interesting around the 6:30 mark a decoy comes out of the blind without the sleeve . The dog is a fair distance back to accommodate the decoy's ability to travel.
> He comes out of the blind without the sleeve !
> LISTEN to the dog . Listen over the calamitous music. The dog's voice changes to a yip - stressed yip .
> decoy puts sleeve on and you have a game of tug the sleeve wearing decoy.



This is great stuff. Something about music (To be more specific . . . sound) that really resonates with all animals. Truly fascinating.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

BalkanBoy said:


> This is great stuff. Something about music (To be more specific . . . sound) that really resonates with all animals. Truly fascinating.


Lol. Watch the handler when the bark changes that little bit. See what he's doing? Its not a big deal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chip asked "Anyone worked him, seen him worked or seen any of his offspring"

Chip always asks from the viewpoint of the progeny . 
To understand what the potentials for the progeny are you have to be very realistic on what the breeding partners
bring to the table .
That includes pedigree . Pedigree strengths are revealed by the animal - how it responds , with or without training .

So has anyone seen any youngsters ? I would be curious .
From what I have two domestic bred litters are 5 5 , 5 5 Yoschy and one is 5 5 , 4 Yoschy . I don't know if there were any foreign born litters . 

tell me -- "Lol. Watch the handler when the bark changes that little bit. See what he's doing? Its not a big deal"

what is he doing ? He has come out of the blind sans sleeve - he raises his hand - dogs pitch changes , puts on sleeve , dogs pitch changes , excitement, 

I don't know what this decoy traveling out of the blind thing is -- at one point coming close to the end but before the no-sleeve "threat" -- the dog almost adjusts himself to walk beside the wandering decoy -- but is given the sleeve --

if ever the dog had a legitimate time or reason to bite it would be when the decoy leaves the blind --- but he lets the guy wander until the sleeve is given 

he does this when the decoy moves toward him --- but he does a good job , again towards the very end of the clip ,
when the dog goes into blind , holds decoy, handler gives a slight pop on leash to allow decoy room for the escape - dog pursues and catches 

but not when the decoy walks toward him

the bibbed overalls - equipment similar aka bite suit -- 

Cliff knows -- he said 
" For breeding, I think you have to be very knowledgeable about the genotype of the females that are bred to him."

training , good or bad , do not transfer in breeding --- 

Since Chip frequently asks about breeding potentials I pointed out what I saw in the dog.

wise Chinese saying " when the shoe fits , the foot is forgotten"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this can get into abstract territory .

genotype -- what the dog has inherited from his sire and dam's family background . This goes deeply into the genetics of the pedigree beyond the sire and dam . What is the dog able to contribute to the next generation.
genotype is what you are

phenotype -- uses the genotype but is altered by out side , non-genetic factors . This includes training and conditioning .
phenotype is what you see . 

sparking at a bibbed overall is a trained condition - the dog associates that outfit with a bite suit .

some pedigrees show a drift towards a selection that is no longer in balance . Keep choosing towards one specialty and you will create extremes. 
This goes for physical extremes as well.
There is only so far that you can go .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> what is he doing ? He has come out of the blind sans sleeve - he raises his hand - dogs pitch changes , puts on sleeve , dogs pitch changes , excitement,


Handler. That's the one that's holding the leash. He has some input to the dog too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what the handler is doing is not a big deal.

what is he doing ? he is rhythmically patting the dog and the dog loads -- gets annoyed - just as the decoy puts the sleeve on -- 
the dog can't have his head in two places at the same time ?

redirection?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> I don't know what to say on this dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am responding to what I bolded here...those photos were taken at the Nationals in OH two days after Cero was with his new owner. I believe it was possibly one of the first bitework sessions they did.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Barks good. Bites good. There's video on EU showing pretty willing, free obedience. Looks like a dog that gets the job done.


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## Xane's Dad (Jun 26, 2017)

I'm new to the working dog scene but what I've seen of Cero is pretty impressive. He is my new pup's sire, the dam is a daughter of Moira Vom Haus Hoengen and Wasko von Eifelgrund. We are picking him up next weekend. Super excited to say the least. Played with the litter last weekend they were all confident and playful and inquisitive at 6 weeks old.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

My dog is linebred 4-5 on Yoschy von der Döllenwiese
Ulli vom Weinbergblick


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## grimmdog (Jan 24, 2007)

I just happened to stumble across this tonight as I was working on a project and this popped up. 

I really never comment on any of these lists, and this is kinda the reason... there's always people who are ALWAYS on these lists, that know soooo much, and have all these opinions, and really miss the mark most of the time.

This dog is a phenomenal GSD. We got his IPO3. Every Judge that saw him said he was probably one of the strongest GSD's in the world. The dog can be sporty, the dog can be extremely civil, the dog is a perfect ambassador in public, and is as gentle as can be with women, children, and puppies. He has a perfect off switch in the home, and is a true natural protector. he's produced wonderfully here at my kennel. We have four of his progeny now in our program:
Genevieve von den Sportwaffen
Dany von den Sportwaffen
Omen von den Sportwaffen
Otso von den Sportwaffen
(Two females, two males)

No one has EVER worked this dog and not sung his praises. So many people that live on these lists know only the sport dog mentality and never recognize actual genetics needed, but then everyone will then ask "Why are GSD's blah blah blah now?" It drives me crazy. Anyone that talks nonsense about insecurity or lack of confidence or whatever with this dog from a video needs to get better eyes. Better yet, get off the computer and come work him. This dog even at his current age won't give a **** about you as a helper and your keyboard opinions. It's ridiculous. When Josef Mravik says "you cannot find males like this now" or Jogi Zank says "He is extremely good dog for breeding and can make top sport, too" or a USCA Judge says "this is probably the strongest dog on US soil" or an SV Judge says "This dog is as strong as any dog in the world" or when I as a well known experienced handler/helper/breeder say "This dog is one of the very best GSD's I have ever known".... Are we all wrong? C'mon....

If people giving all this advice on these lists can't recognize a dog like Cero, give it up. This breed won't stand a chance. Like I said, I normally ignore these lists, but I wasn't gonna sit silent on some of the dumb stuff I read here on my boy.... unreal.

Notice: I've been on this list for 12 years. Made SIX posts.


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