# Giardia and treatment?



## lrodptl

Vet just called and said puppy sample had tested positive for Giardia. I have to pick up Paracure (sp.) at the clinic. Anyone have any idea on what this costs and how effective? I have problems with my Vet's fees and won't mind picking it up elsewhere.


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## Jax08

no idea on cost but you should probably have your drinking / tap water tested.


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## lrodptl

> Originally Posted By: Jax08no idea on cost but you should probably have your drinking / tap water tested.


Unfortunately I have caught Fritz numerous times eating poop and he has drank water from many of the lakes and ponds around my house.


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## Jax08

when my cat was having problems and they tested for giardia she told me if it was positive I should get my water tested to make sure. it's not an expensive test and will rule out problems for your kids even though it's probably not an issue.


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## DianaB

Panacure comes in a powder form and is around $20 depending on where you are located (here in California EVERYTHING seems more pricey at the vets). You can get it likely cheaper from online medicine retailers (i.e. 1800pet meds) but that will take longer to get, of course.

It is very effective but I recommend getting the test repeated about 2 weeks after you finish the regimin. We failed to do this and she needed a longer dose than we originally got (had it really bad) and we ended up having to retreat a couple of times before they told us to retest to be sure it was gone.

It can easily be spread back to the dog (or humans) so you want to be sure to wash your hands thoroughly and clean up the poop ASAP. We ended up treating our yard (due to severity) with a bleach/water solution (I forget the ratio, because it was a couple of years ago). 

It can cause lots of problems if it doesn't get treated properly. My dog had lots of digestive issues after having it for about 4-55 months in total. Again, Siena had it very severly and came to us from the Breeder's kennel with it (very prevalent in the Sierra Mountain range)


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## DianaB

> Originally Posted By: lrodptl
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Jax08no idea on cost but you should probably have your drinking / tap water tested.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I have caught Fritz numerous times eating poop and he has drank water from many of the lakes and ponds around my house.
Click to expand...

Siena ate her own poop (and others) for a while too. We try really hard not to let her drink out of lakes/ponds, but she's a dog so it can be hard. There is a vaccine which we initially did, but then realized having it so long (hopefully) increased her immunity, so we did not do a second one. So far, so good (knock on wood)


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## Doc

Giardia is best treated with Panacur. You can buy a 125ml 10% solution at Tractor Supply for around $18.00. Panacur liquid is not labled for dogs but the 10% solution is sold as Safe-Guard Goat Wormer and is the exact same thing. I would treat at 1ml per 5 pounds for 3 to 5 days. Panacur is very safe with little to no side effects. i would treat for 5 days then retest your pup in 2 weeks. Sometimes Giardia is very difficult to get rid of.


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## smerry

> Originally Posted By: DocGiardia is best treated with Panacur. You can buy a 125ml 10% solution at Tractor Supply for around $18.00. Panacur liquid is not labled for dogs but the 10% solution is sold as Safe-Guard Goat Wormer and is the exact same thing. I would treat at 1ml per 5 pounds for 3 to 5 days. Panacur is very safe with little to no side effects. i would treat for 5 days then retest your pup in 2 weeks. Sometimes Giardia is very difficult to get rid of.


Just what I was thinking


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## DogGone

Panacur = Fenbendazole = Safe-Guard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenbendazole
It's also effective against most common canine intestinal worms.

The downside is that it is a mutagen (it can cause DNA mutations).


I like it be because it is cheap (if bought in bulk) and because it works against several different types of common parasites and because it can be bought without a prescription or a veterinary visit.

The reason it is recommended to treat again a second time two to four weeks later is that this drug doesn't necessarily kill all parasites in all life stages. (So if you only treat for one 3-day session; you may kill all the adult parasites but the eggs may survive)

If you store it for long periods of time in liquid form it should be refrigerated. Follow the directions.

If you have a lot of dogs or are affiliated with a rescue or if your dogs have repeated infestations of Giardia or intestinal parasites it might be a good drug for your dogs. Because it is a mutagen I would be reluctant to use it on puppies or a potential breeder unless there is no other practical means to fight an infestation.

The version I buy is for cattle, I dispense it (measure it) with the syringe. It takes about 2 cc (for an adult GSD) per day for three days on food (then repeat once for another three-day session about 2 to 4 weeks later).


IIRC this $120 bottle is enough to treat 11 adult GSD (2; 3-day sessions) (using the Panacur in packets of three x 2 it would cost about $28 for one adult GSD; and about $308 to treat 11 GSDs)
http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/SafeGuard-Suspension-10-1000-ml-Bottle--pr--0160071000

This is where I got the idea.

Inexpensive canine treatment for Giardia and most common canine intestinal worms.
http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/beaglehealth_canineintestinalworms.htm


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## angelaw

It's easier just to order the Metronidazole aka flagyl. 250mg bottle is more cost effective to purchase than the fenbendazole. I've had both (granted the safe guard is more a broader dewormer) but the pills are easier to administer. If you look at the website above (which is good info), see the page for giardia and not just deworming.

beagle health tab, you'll see giardiasis.


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W... Metronidazole aka flagyl. 250mg bottle is more cost effective to purchase than the fenbendazole.


Metronidazole is simpler to use. However I would debate that it is not necessarily as cost-effective; because it requires a prescription. Unless you have a vet essentially in your pocket because he's already had his hands in your pockets and you just can call him up and ask him to write you a prescription. Typically a prescription requires an office visit, and office bill, gas, time off from work and plus the cost of the medication. For what it would cost for some people; to take one dog to the vet to get a prescription to treat one dog for Giardia or common intestinal worms; they could just order a 1000 mL bottle of safeguard that could treat 11 adult GSDs.

A vet can give you valuable guidance. However if you're poor and you know what the problem is and a good nurse; sometimes it's better to treat it yourself.


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## Jax08

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=a981a331-83e0-42f5-bf86-0a5b069cc1f0

Free Shipping and it's all set for dogs!

Or if you're feeling brave...buy the equine and figure out the dosage

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=feceb91d-2d8b-4b92-af62-f46d7076effb


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## zyppi

and wash your hands!

People can get it and it's not pretty.


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## DianaB

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WIt's easier just to order the Metronidazole aka flagyl. 250mg bottle is more cost effective to purchase than the fenbendazole. I've had both (granted the safe guard is more a broader dewormer) but the pills are easier to administer. If you look at the website above (which is good info), see the page for giardia and not just deworming.
> 
> beagle health tab, you'll see giardiasis.


My experience is that Metronidazole/Flagyl is not as effective. That was our first line of defense and it did not work on Siena, only the Panacur. Plus I hate the neurological side effects (and it also caused diarrhea for her).


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: DogGone(using the Panacur in packets of three x 2 it would cost about $28 for one adult GSD; and about $308 to treat 11 GSDs)


I made a mistake when I ran those numbers. That's only for one 3-day treatment; it's a good idea to give a second three day treatment within two to four weeks to try to make sure that all the parasites life stages are killed and eliminated from the body. So that would double the costs of using the packets.
(using the Panacur in packets of three x 2 it would cost about $56 for one adult GSD; and about $612 to treat 11 GSDs) 

As opposed to using the bulk cattle version: IIRC this $120 bottle is enough to treat about 11 adult GSD (2; 3-day sessions)



> Originally Posted By: Jax08http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=a981a331-83e0-42f5-bf86-0a5b069cc1f0
> 
> Free Shipping and it's all set for dogs!


The packets are much easier to use.



> Originally Posted By: zypand wash your hands!
> 
> People can get it and it's not pretty.


Some of the parasites can be transferred by a dog licking your face or less commonly skin near a wound. Less commonly some parasites can be picked up by walking on contaminated ground particularly if you don't have socks or shoes on .

It's important that everyone picks up after their dogs because that's part of the way it spreads. That's one of the reasons that you should pick up after your own dog and that if you go to a dog Park that everyone should police each other and make sure that everyone picks up after their dogs. 

It's also a good idea if your dog has an extreme or severe intestinal worm infestation to spray your yard (the area where your dogs defecate) with an insecticide to keep from reinfecting your dog. 

Practice good hygiene. Change your dogs water daily, and sterilize the bowls daily during an outbreak. Even when the dog is healthy I try to sterilize the water and feeding bowls anywhere from once a week to once a month.



> Originally Posted By: Jax08you should probably have your drinking / tap water tested.


If the tap water was contaminated odds are humans would be infected also and more severely. I suspect treated city tap water for the should be free of Giardia. If the tap water is untreated well water, then it would be a very good idea to have it tested.


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## Lin

I prefer using metronidazole, and have better luck than with panacur actually. You don't need a prescription, just order it from veterinary or farm supply stores. Its also marketed for other species such as under the name fish-zole but its pure metronidazole so you just have to get the dosage for the weight of your dogs.


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## LisaT

For some dogs, metro causes some pretty nasty side effects, just so people are aware. 

Also, regarding the liquid meds, they should be used very carefully. There is more room for measurement and calculation error, which could have very bad consequences for the dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/giardia.html is a nice article. 
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_panacur.html

This is how I rationalize prices for things like this. If my vet gives me panacur for my dog/puppy and they have some kind of weird reaction, we are all on the same page even if it's rare or unlikely. I know they do have people who do it on their own, and don't do it right and some who do it right. I'm just not that confident!


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: LinI prefer using metronidazole, and have better luck than with panacur actually. You don't need a prescription, just order it from veterinary or farm supply stores. Its also marketed for other species such as under the name fish-zole but its pure metronidazole so you just have to get the dosage for the weight of your dogs.


Are you trying to say that in the US you can get metronidazole for livestock without a prescription?

Metronidazole is an antibiotic and antiprotozoal medication used to treat various conditions such as inflammatory bowel disease, nonspecific diarrheal disorders, infections caused by Giardia (a cause of diarrhea), and periodontal disease. *Metronidazole requires a prescription from your veterinarian*, and is sold by the tablet.
http://www.1800petmeds.com/Metronidazole-prod10098.html

Sure perhaps it's available without a prescription such as for a aquarium use, but I think that might be skirting the law; especially if the intent is to use on dogs.


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## Lin

> Originally Posted By: DogGoneLin
> Are you trying to say that in the US you can get metronidazole for livestock without a prescription?


Yes. You can also get many other antibiotics and medications without a prescription. I would never recommend doing this without knowing what you are doing. My vet fully knows what I am doing, what meds I have on hand etc. I've discussed it before with her, and she works with me on the many dogs and cats I've fostered. My friends always call me before or on their way to the vet to discuss problems. When self treating you also need to know when to go to the vet, such as if the treatment is not working. You also have to be very careful and know the dosages and length of time for medications especially antibiotics due to the huge problems of antibiotic resistance. If you don't use the correct antibiotic, or not long enough duration of treatment, you can cause resistant bacteria in both the strain you are treating or other bacteria present in the dogs system.


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: Lin
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: DogGoneLin
> Are you trying to say that in the US you can get metronidazole for livestock without a prescription?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. You can also get many other antibiotics and medications without a prescription. I would never recommend doing this without knowing what you are doing. My vet fully knows what I am doing, what meds I have on hand etc. I've discussed it before with her, and she works with me on the many dogs and cats I've fostered. My friends always call me before or on their way to the vet to discuss problems. When self treating you also need to know when to go to the vet, such as if the treatment is not working. You also have to be very careful and know the dosages and length of time for medications especially antibiotics due to the huge problems of antibiotic resistance. If you don't use the correct antibiotic, or not long enough duration of treatment, you can cause resistant bacteria in both the strain you are treating or other bacteria present in the dogs system.
Click to expand...

From where? How about some specific names and some links to indicate that metronidazole is available in the US without prescription for cattle and/or dogs?

I did a quick search in all the sources I could find for the US seem to indicate that for livestock and dogs that a prescription was necessary. Much like the example that I posted and quoted and linked.


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## angelaw

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=...sh+zole&spell=1

search for fish zole gave me the list above.


Click on one of the links

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_product_group.html?cguid=E4CABD34-6A24-4A91-A597-F23BDCCA037F then click on antibiotics, has alot more, SMZ's, doxycycline, amoxicillan, etc 

another link (lambriar vet) http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/Antibiotics-Non-Prescription.php

bird and fish, cephalaxin, plus others. I usually order from lambriar.


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## Lin

> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> From where? How about some specific names and some links to indicate that metronidazole is available in the US without prescription for cattle and/or dogs?
> 
> I did a quick search in all the sources I could find for the US seem to indicate that for livestock and dogs that a prescription was necessary. Much like the example that I posted and quoted and linked.


Here is where I usually buy it http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Zole-Metronid...62977598&sr=8-1

here is another http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/Fish-Zol...pr--001TLZOL100 (I believe the site that suggests lambert was posted above, its from a beagle page on treating giardia)

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pr...u=0018879000000

If you google fish zole (which I mentioned looking for fish zole in my original post) you can find many suppliers. 

The dosage for metronidazole is 11.5 mg/lb twice daily for 5 days. As I mentioned fish zole is pure metronidazole. Examples of other antibiotics I have on hand are baytril and doxycycline (purchased from pigeon supply) for treating upper respiratory infections in rats. I also keep amoxicillin, cephalexin, and sulphamethoxazole on hand as far as antibiotics. I also have otomax, neo-poly-bac eye ointment, tetracycline eye ointment, antibiotic/steriod eye drops, prednisone... Lots of things. But like I said my vet is aware and we work together. I also draw blood and do my own heartworm testing at home. I have lactated ringers on hand in case of dehydration.


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Whttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...result&cd=1&ved=0CBIQBSgA&q=fish+zole&spell=1
> 
> search for fish zole gave me the list above.
> 
> 
> Click on one of the links
> 
> http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_product_group.html?cguid=E4CABD34-6A24-4A91-A597-F23BDCCA037F then click on antibiotics, has alot more, SMZ's, doxycycline, amoxicillan, etc
> 
> another link (lambriar vet) http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/Antibiotics-Non-Prescription.php
> 
> bird and fish, cephalaxin, plus others. I usually order from lambriar.


I was specifically speaking of prescription requirements metronidazole for cattle and or dogs. Fish are not cattle or dogs.

Using fish zole on cattle or dogs may be a violation of federal law because it may be considered inappropriate off label use.

I find it somewhat disturbing that Lin is giving condescending lecturing on the use of drugs but she doesn't seem to know that apparently a prescription is normally required to dispense metronidazole. Now there may be a few exemptions like for aquarium use in fish, however that might be considered illegal to use it on dogs or cattle because it might be considered off label use and because the fish zole quality-control standards may not be as high as for cattle and/or dogs.

I also find it somewhat hypocritical that the condescending lecture is partly about building up antibiotic resistance; however if you use metronidazole to a dog that has Giardia but no secondary infection; then you can be contributing to antibiotic resistance.

So ironically Lin seems to be suggesting using metronidazole for Giardia which may contribute to antibiotic resistance.


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## angelaw

Wow my vet uses ponzuril which is labeled for horses for coccidia. Ivermec (the active ingredient in Heartgard) was used offlabel for MANY years for heartworm treatment before heartgard ever came out. 

And your question was cattle and/or dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> From where? How about some specific names and some links to indicate that metronidazole is available in the US without prescription for cattle and/or dogs?
> 
> I did a quick search in all the sources I could find for the US seem to indicate that for livestock and dogs that a prescription was necessary. Much like the example that I posted and quoted and linked.


Now you CAN NOT get prescription meds for labeled for dogs, typically, without one, but TYPICALLY you can get meds for off-label use, which is done all the time by vets, etc online without a script for fish, birds, etc. 

e.g. I don't see tramadol listed as an RX for dogs, it's a drug for people, but I can get it filled at Walgreens for my senior. Just giving examples so don't shoot the messengers.

Each person has to use what they are comfortable with. I have safe guard here, keep the big container that cost over 100 for, but if I have that rare case of giardia, flagyl works best for me. Am I worried about the possibility of antibiotic resistance? No. Why? I don't use it often. If I were using a few times a year, maybe. But one course over a 4-5 yr period? Yeah, not really concerned about it.


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## Jax08

There was nothing condenscending about anything Lin posted. She stated that her vet is aware and works with her and she was not advocating anyone else do so without consulting their vet.


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## Lin

Nothing I have said has been condescending, I think you need to look in a mirror with your rude replies. 

How can you say I do not know that metronidazole requires a prescription for dogs when I've stated the prescription drugs I have on hand, that metronidazole does not require a prescription when marketed for fish etc. 

Having spent 3 years thoroughly researching antibiotic resistance and doing experimentation of herbal antibiotics and commonly prescribed antibiotics I'm sure I know more about antibiotic resistance than you will ever know. 

Just like Angela I am not concerned about antibiotic resistance in my use as I only use when necessary and use at the correct dosage and duration of treatment. I have mentioned MULTIPLE times now that I work with my vet. 

Metronidazole has been used longer than panacur for the treatment of Giardia. The reason most vets have switched to using panacur for the treatment of Giardia is due to possible side effects of metronidazole. But I have found in many cases panacur is not sufficient to kill the Giardia, and then a treatment of metronidazole is used after. Your statement of metronidazole use for Giardia contributing to antibiotic ressistance doesn't have grounds in this case. Metronidazole has many different uses. It is also frequently prescribed for GI issues to help balance the intestinal flora.


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> From where? How about some specific names and some links to indicate that metronidazole is available in the US without prescription for cattle and/or dogs?
> 
> I did a quick search in all the sources I could find for the US seem to indicate that for livestock and dogs that a prescription was necessary. Much like the example that I posted and quoted and linked.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you CAN NOT get prescription meds for labeled for dogs, typically, without one, but TYPICALLY you can get meds for off-label use, which is done all the time by vets, etc online without a script for fish, birds, etc.
> 
> e.g. I don't see tramadol listed as an RX for dogs, it's a drug for people, but I can get it filled at Walgreens for my senior. Just giving examples so don't shoot the messengers.
> 
> Each person has to use what they are comfortable with. I have safe guard here, keep the big container that cost over 100 for, but if I have that rare case of giardia, flagyl works best for me. Am I worried about the possibility of antibiotic resistance? No. Why? I don't use it often. If I were using a few times a year, maybe. But one course over a 4-5 yr period? Yeah, not really concerned about it.
Click to expand...

I think the quality control and manufacturing standards are about the same for medicines intended for cattle and dogs. There is some off label use allowed but those laws are very muddy and I've heard of a lot of doctors, vets and ordinary people getting a lot of hot water for off label usage.

I wouldn't be so concerned with the law as I would be for the health of the public and the health of your animal. There seems to be several different tiers of quality control for medicines and foods and such. Standards are the highest for human consumption. Livestock is probably the next highest tier because the livestock is typically meant for human consumption. Aquarium fish are typically not for human consumption; therefore the quality control and the laws may not be as strict. I cannot help her feel that some of these outlets that are selling large quantities of fish zole may be stretching the law or possibly in violation.

As I said using fish zole on dogs without a prescription may be stretching the law and maybe contributing to antibiotic resistance. 

I think the exemption that may have been made for aquarium fish was meant to be for small quantities such as a small card with several tablets to treat a hobby fish tank for fish that are not meant for human consumption.

Safe-guard/Fenbendazole is approved for dogs and I see no mention that a prescription is required for it; it's not approved for humans, and can be deadly for birds. It's not supposed to be administered to livestock within something like a 30 or 90 days prior to slaughter; they want the drug to leave the livestock's system before the livestock is slaughtered and becomes food for humans.

Of course you can get tramadol for your dog at your local pharmacy, but it still requires a prescription. For the most part there is nothing wrong with using human grade drugs on dogs. However it is generally considered a violation of the law to go the other direction (IE to use animal grade medication on humans).



> Originally Posted By: Angela_WWow my vet uses ponzuril which is labeled for horses for coccidia. Ivermec (the active ingredient in Heartgard) was used offlabel for MANY years for heartworm treatment before heartgard ever came out.


That sounds like it would be within reason. Since livestock is often meant for human consumption the quality control standards for the medications are typically higher than medications for pets like dogs and cats.


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## DogGone

> Originally Posted By: LinNothing I have said has been condescending, I think you need to look in a mirror with your rude replies.
> 
> How can you say I do not know that metronidazole requires a prescription for dogs when I've stated the prescription drugs I have on hand, that metronidazole does not require a prescription when marketed for fish etc.
> 
> Having spent 3 years thoroughly researching antibiotic resistance and doing experimentation of herbal antibiotics and commonly prescribed antibiotics I'm sure I know more about antibiotic resistance than you will ever know.
> 
> Just like Angela I am not concerned about antibiotic resistance in my use as I only use when necessary and use at the correct dosage and duration of treatment. I have mentioned MULTIPLE times now that I work with my vet.
> 
> Metronidazole has been used longer than panacur for the treatment of Giardia. The reason most vets have switched to using panacur for the treatment of Giardia is due to possible side effects of metronidazole. But I have found in many cases panacur is not sufficient to kill the Giardia, and then a treatment of metronidazole is used after. Your statement of metronidazole use for Giardia contributing to antibiotic ressistance doesn't have grounds in this case. Metronidazole has many different uses. It is also frequently prescribed for GI issues to help balance the intestinal flora.


That's not true. You are confabulating.

You seem to say that no prescription was necessary for metronidazole.


> Originally Posted By: LinI prefer using metronidazole, and have better luck than with panacur actually. You don't need a prescription, just order it from veterinary or farm supply stores. Its also marketed for other species such as under the name fish-zole but its pure metronidazole so you just have to get the dosage for the weight of your dogs.


You didn't say you had the prescriptions on hand; what you said was that you had the medications.


> Originally Posted By: Linwhat meds I have on hand etc


You say you spent three years researching antibiotic resistance. Yet you're advocating using metronidazole for Giardia. Metronidazole works on Giardia but it is not a simple anti-parasite it essentially is an antibiotic; therefore using it for Giardia when there isn't a secondary infection would likely be contributing to evolving antibiotic resistant bacteria. It sounds like you need to get off your high horse and to do more research. Wake up you are part of the problem.


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## BowWowMeow

DogGone--

Personally insulting people is against board rules. Emotions often run high in the Health & Wellness section because our beloved breed is prone to so many chronic health problems and it can be extremely stressful dealing with them. 
Maybe if you toned down your replies people would be more inclined to listen to what you had to say? 


And for anyone looking for a holistic remedy, I used this successfully to treat giardia and coccidia: http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/coccidia.html


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## Lin

After this reply I am done speaking with you. 

Metronidazole is a prescription medication for dogs but easily acquired without a prescription when labeled for other species. I am not concerned as to the quality of the medications I use as I am working in concert with my vet. You are knit picking and know exactly what I mean (or this conversation may just be a tin roof to you.) 

I am done taking your bait.


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## angelaw

And I think that since this thread is basically going back and forth and almost saying the same thing in once sentence and contradicting in another, it has outlived it's purpose.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I'm locking the thread.


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