# Pet dogs in Shutzhund/IPO?



## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

I have been researching dog sports to indulge in after my 9 month old GSD earns her CGC. This is my first time having a GSD and taking a dog any further than intermediate obedience for good manners as a pet. 

I think Shutzhund/IPO is an amazing sport but I'm hoping for some advice on of it would work for myself and Faun.

I work full-time as a vet tech and often have to stay overtime for emergency cases. Our obedience trainer holds beginning class four days a week. I've not had an issue missing class so far but if I have to, I know I can jump into class on another day. 

I understand IPO takes time and dedication, is it feasible to work a flexible training regiment? I have heard puppies are raised a certain way for the sport, is Faun to old to start when she's 12 months? 

Is IPO training and club membership usually expensive? What about trials? I paid $150 for beginning obedience and intermediate/advanced are $80. I expect higher cost but can't seem to find a ballpark figure anywhere. I don't want to start and waste anyone's time if continued involvement is not in my budget. 

Lastly, Faun is a pet dog. I rescued her from a farm litter. I could tell her parents aren't show lines by their bone structure but I don't have any other information. Is it a good idea to have her temper evaluated before starting in a club? Or is working towards a BH title the same as working towards the proper temperament for IPO? I'm not interested in going into this with any expectation in particular. I would be happy with just getting out with her and teaching her what GSDs were bred to do. 

Any suggestions on clubs and training in Northern California would be greatly appreciated. 

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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Is Morgan Hill convenient for you petite?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

More than likely, you won't find a very flexible schedule. Most clubs will train on weekends. Saturday or Sunday mornings because that's when the majority of people can come out. If you're lucky, you might be near a club that is flexible and training is available more than just once or possibly twice a week. The only way to know is to contact clubs in your area. There aren't that many (compared to pet obedience places) so you'll basically be limited by whatever they tell you.

Once you find a club. You go with your dog. The younger, the better, as even if the dog isn't perfect, a good trainer/helper can shape the behaviors needed for IPO. You'll also be taught not to squash certain behaviors that might come in useful in the future.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm new to IPO too. My IPO dog is also a family pet. He's not treated any differently in the house than my other two. When I first got Isen who is now 7.5 months, my breeder, training director and other experienced people in the sport said to socialize and make sure everything is positive. When playing tug, the puppy ALWAYS wins. Make sure there are no negative experiences with other dogs/people etc. I took Isen to different places using food as a reward. All this also helps to create a bond with your puppy. My goal for Isen and I is to have fun, learn about the sport, and win some titles at the club level. My long term goal is to one day be competitive at a higher level. That comes with experience : ) 
Club dues vary depending on the club. Some club lease training fields, others like my club own their field. Club dues for my club are $400/yr. You also have dues for DVG which for new member (myself) are $125 the first year. Our club meets twice a week, some club meet more, some less. On days when we do not train, I train at least 3 of those days, most of the time I can get 4. Training sessions on my own consist of Obedience under distraction, tracking and playing...lots of playing. Protection is done only when I'm at the club. When we're at the club we get to demonstrate our progress throughout the week and take note of our "homework". 
When I first started, the training director said something that really stuck with me. "We do not make you come, but this is a group sport. You can not train for everything on your own. Whether its walking through a group, another set of eyes to give you pointers/corrections, or help with protection...you need more than one person to really train. People get out of their dogs what they put in." This statement really stuck with me and I do my best to always make it to training. 
When new dogs come to the club, our training director evaluates the dog's temperament, prior to the person paying money to join. The BH is a temperament test that tests the dog's temperament to determine if he/she can move towards IPO. Other organizations also train for the BH. One is Search and Rescue dogs. The BH is important because it shows the owner and dog have control and the dog has a solid temperament. 
I do not live in California so I can't help with offering a club. The best thing is to look on line for several clubs in your area. Contact them and visit them. Look how the club is ran, how the members interact with each other, talk with them and the training director. Look at how he trains. Do you approve of it? Some clubs use different methods of training. This is important because YOU need to be okay with how they work your dog. Make notes about each, and go with the one that works for you! Don't forget to have fun!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Schedules: The clubs I've been involved with train on a regular schedule but there is no requirement that you make it every week. We've had people that come every other week, people that come every week, people that miss several weeks for other obligations. Often you have access to the field and can train at other times although it can be helpful to have someone else there with you. In Arkansas, Saturdays were training days with some of us meeting on Tuesday evenings for a while and sometimes protection was offered on an evening and following morning. This was easy for me as I was 15 - 20 minutes from the field and we had lights for night work!

Oregon has training Saturdays and Tuesday evenings. I'm 3 hours away and it's absolutely not convenient to go every Saturday or any Tuesday. (Tuesday tends to be obedience only with Saturday being tracking, obedience and often protection). 

While the 5 yo was purchased with the idea of schutzhund obedience, she is a house dog and first and foremost a companion animal. 

You will want to have someone knowledgable evaluate your dog. A club's training director may be an appropriate person to do this. A club will typically not charge you if you come out a time or two with your dog and s/he is not considered suitable.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The group I train with is an unsanctioned club that splintered off of our local USCA club. My trainer has his own internet equipment business and one of my training buddies is a preacher. We have regular training times but we also get together and train on random days as well because thier schedules are so flexable. If I am off work one day and there is no scheduled club training that day, we might still get together in the morning and meet at the tracking field or the training field to work our dogs. It has worked great having people to train with and not having to be tied to only training on official club days. 

I am gratefull to our local usca club though because that is where I made my connections. Connections really are key though. You have to get our there and meet people. If you have the passion, you will find a way to make it work.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

robk said:


> I am gratefull to our local usca club though because that is where I made my connections. Connections really are key though. You have to get our there and meet people. If you have the passion, you will find a way to make it work.


Yup...this and to a certain extent luck. If you join a club an hour away, start going, then realize you live 5 minutes away from your helper. You'll probably be able to sneak in protection sessions during the week. But if you don't have someone like that nearby...you don't really have the opportunity.

Good helpers are rare. There aren't that many people doing this sport...so you have to work with what you have. I'm lucky enough to have a great helper 20 minutes north of me who is willing to meet whenever people are available. Others...have to drive 3 hours.


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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

Thank you for all the advice. I should be thankful there is more than one club within driving distance. I'll need to visit a few to get a good idea of what they are about. 

Is there a certain website or Facebook page to find out where trials are taking place in your area? I know the tracking is probably somewhere random but at least to watch the obedience and bite work?

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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

http://www.northwesternregion.com

And click on events!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm trying to work on something for you right now. Are you free on Sundays? 



DVG is another option. 
DVG AMERICA Main Menu


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

What exciting things are you working on? Inquiring nor cal minds want to know!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

How do you "rescue" a pup from a litter? Was she in danger?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Haha just reaching out to some of my IPO friends to try and set her up with a group to visit. Nothing special


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Sac area or Bay Area?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Sacramento, email Sacramento working dog club. I have a couple friends with them. They said visitors are always welcome, just email first.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Cool. I am happy with my trainer now, but joining a club would be nice. At this point (with winter coming), I am not going to do anything. Getting down the hill can be a pain 

Another option - Weston offers group OB classes (for sport) each week too (out of Loomis).


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Sacramento, email Sacramento working dog club. I have a couple friends with them. They said visitors are always welcome, just email first.



Correction, I sent this from my phone so....

Sacramento Valley Working Dog Club 
or
Sacramento Schutzhund Club.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pet dogs in IPO , sure, why not, aren't most of them personal pet companion dogs ?

yours though , I don't know , not after this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-sudden-aggressive-behavior-9-month-old.html

not sure she has the temperament and not sure that you can manage her , proper housing, containment ?


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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

@msspiker03 Thank you so much! I'll continue my research. 

@mycobraracr Great, thank you so much for the resources. Faun and I are still in obedience right now but she's doing so well I've been encouraged to get her into a dog sport. I'd love to take some time and watch some other dogs and handlers work!

@Blitzktieg1: The dam was bred accidentally her first heat, leading to health issues with the birth. They didn't want the sick dog or the litter that had to be bottle fed.


@carnspack: I was under the impression the dog needs reliable obedience before they can even be considered and must pass BH? Faun has leash reactivity issues at 9 months, is that damning for her sport career?

I'm not sure what her slipping out my front door has to do with IPO? Am I missing something? 



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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Weston is the helper for Placer County SchH. His website is: caninepurpose.com 

I go down for private lessons approx 1x/week since I want to work on all 3 phases


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog is getting super excitable at the window , can't cap, is reactive on leash , is excitable reactive on walks to people and dogs , arouses with hackles up in prey chase,
was clearly over the top to have and couldn't cap or settle quote "Even when she came to me, she was struggling, flailing and still carrying on. She had blown her anal glands as well, a first for her"


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

No problem, that's what this community is about. 

If you're available, November 1, I will be at the True Haus SDA trial in Oroville. It's another sport worth looking into.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

carmspack said:


> the dog is getting super excitable at the window , can't cap, is reactive on leash , is excitable reactive on walks to people and dogs , arouses with hackles up in prey chase,
> was clearly over the top to have and couldn't cap or settle quote "Even when she came to me, she was struggling, flailing and still carrying on. She had blown her anal glands as well, a first for her"


There's nothing here that is of concern - we're talking about an exitable puppy. You should have seen Keeta when I adopted her! Talk about over-the-top! 

SchH/IPO was exactly what she needed to learn to cap and focus her energy. The intense obedience even under high-levels of excitement did wonders for her to learn self-control and to look to me for direction in how to act in various situations. 

Let an experienced trainer actually _see_ the dog and interact with her for an fair assessment.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey petite, wherever you go, just keep an open mind. Don't try to fit your dog into any idea or description from stuff online ahead of time. Trying to describe things on a forum, its tough. Something simple to see in person takes on all kinds of incorrect when you try to describe it.

One example, reactivity. Frustration is something thats good in a dog for sport, but most of the time it causes problems for owners that don't understand it. Then online, it all gets lumped into reactive/bad nerves/aggressive etc....

When you get the chance to train with someone who works with these things, not just someone who's trying to stop something, it'll give you a whole different perspective.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there can't be any missteps in management .

the dog could have already taken a bite .

if the dog is worked and bite work done , promoted, AND then there is some gap in management , dog biting someone , the schutzhund training will be blamed , yet another blow to sport , another line in a book about "bite-dogs"


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I still believe that a TD and a helper would be a much better judge of this dogs ability to handle the training than someone on the Internet reading a few posts from a very novice dog person.

A schutzhund training field is also one of the best places to learn how to handle a dog with aggression and to learn the responsibility that comes with owning a dog that is trained in protection work. Very few people go through IPO training and don't realize the responsibility and liability that comes with owning one of those dogs.

I have also not seen too many news articles about protection trained dogs biting people. Not much negative press about the sport in recent years. The clubs and groups do an excellent job policing themselves.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm talking about management that the owner needs to change.
I believe the other dog is snappy at the window too? correct me if I am wrong.

go to the club , get started on the BH


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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

I didn't intend to start up a debate on my pup's nerves. I don't have any interest in an "online behavior assessment" of her temperament and I don't have to be a non-novice owner to know there are various reasons for reactivity. 

I do find it interesting IPO dogs are being talked about as if they are trained protection dogs on this forum. IPO is a sport about obedience, isn't it? Yes there is bite work but there is also showiness that seems impractical for a protection dog. I'm gathering my information from K9 unit officers who have dogs that will protect them and are a liability. I mean absolutely no offense but IPO dogs bite on the sleeve, not wherever on a helper's is most practical for a take down. Maybe these officers were speaking on IPO lightly but I suppose I'll see for myself after I attend an event.  

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Once you show your dog it can bite a human, even with a sleeve, it's a liability. If your dog doesn't have the nerve to decipher between the training field and real life...it's a liability. If your dog already has the propensity to decide it needs to react aggressively at non threats, or just regular people, it will now learn that it has the ability to bite them. At this point, your dog has probably been taught to not bite people at all, once you start bite work...that gets turned around.

Please go look at a training before you start making uneducated comments about showiness and impracticality. Sure, the obedience (heeling) is more flashy and showy, but I can guarantee you that most of the dogs bite just as hard if not harder than those K9s you speak of. Most K9 handlers also have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to dog training or the sport.

It's actually pretty easy to get a dog to bite other parts of the body. Most dogs are taught a place to bite, and will revert to that area. They do not judge the situation and decide that it's better to bite the arm today and the leg tomorrow. They bite where they're taught to bite and what is presented for them to bite. Sport dogs are just taught to bite a sleeve because their owners don't need them to bite anything else.

It's also not difficult to move a dog from a sleeve to an actual bite. Many times, you trick the dog and just slip it a hidden sleeve. So the dog thinks it will be biting a sleeve, but instead at the last second is presented just an arm (usually a smaller sleeve under a sweatshirt) and it will bite that because it's too late to stop.

Yes, there is a lot of obedience involved in all aspects of IPO. But don't think for a second that during protection the dogs arent acting on natural instinct. It's probably more of a compliment to the handler/trainer that they have taught the dog to control that drive and instinct and can make the dog start/stop on command.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

petite said:


> I didn't intend to start up a debate on my pup's nerves. I don't have any interest in an "online behavior assessment" of her temperament and I don't have to be a non-novice owner to know there are various reasons for reactivity.
> 
> I do find it interesting IPO dogs are being talked about as if they are trained protection dogs on this forum. IPO is a sport about obedience, isn't it? Yes there is bite work but there is also showiness that seems impractical for a protection dog. I'm gathering my information from K9 unit officers who have dogs that will protect them and are a liability. I mean absolutely no offense but IPO dogs bite on the sleeve, not wherever on a helper's is most practical for a take down. Maybe these officers were speaking on IPO lightly but I suppose I'll see for myself after I attend an event.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good for you! Don't buy into everything you read online. Have a TD and/or helper evaluate your dog, not some strangers on an internet forum.

To me, SchH is more about CONTROL than anything else if done right. You'll go to the club, watch the training - do the dogs look like they are in control of themselves? Do the handlers have control? Or are they just biting? Are they being pushed too hard or not hard enough? Pay attention to the training and try to think about you handling a dog in that club - would you be proud or upset? Nervous or excited to bring him/her onto the field? If you see something you are unsure about, ask another member on the sideline - get clarification before you make an opinion.

That's you evaluating the club. Then the club will evaluate you and your dog. Then THEY will say whether the dog can do it or not and whether the dog will become a liability if trained.

I just hate the online naysaying - go to a club, speak to real people, figure out if they are people you would TRUST evaluating your dog and then let them evaluate your dog 

Good luck!


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> No problem, that's what this community is about.
> 
> If you're available, November 1, I will be at the True Haus SDA trial in Oroville. It's another sport worth looking into.


Please post trial info after it's over, especially your impressions of SDA. Thanks!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

petite said:


> I didn't intend to start up a debate on my pup's nerves. I don't have any interest in an "online behavior assessment" of her temperament and I don't have to be a non-novice owner to know there are various reasons for reactivity.
> 
> I do find it interesting IPO dogs are being talked about as if they are trained protection dogs on this forum. IPO is a sport about obedience, isn't it? Yes there is bite work but there is also showiness that seems impractical for a protection dog. I'm gathering my information from K9 unit officers who have dogs that will protect them and are a liability. I mean absolutely no offense but IPO dogs bite on the sleeve, not wherever on a helper's is most practical for a take down. Maybe these officers were speaking on IPO lightly but I suppose I'll see for myself after I attend an event.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Once you've been out a little, seen training, not just the finished product, you may end up with a little different perspective of officers and k9's too.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

petite said:


> I didn't intend to start up a debate on my pup's nerves. I don't have any interest in an "online behavior assessment" of her temperament and I don't have to be a non-novice owner to know there are various reasons for reactivity.
> 
> I do find it interesting IPO dogs are being talked about as if they are trained protection dogs on this forum. IPO is a sport about obedience, isn't it? Yes there is bite work but there is also showiness that seems impractical for a protection dog. I'm gathering my information from K9 unit officers who have dogs that will protect them and are a liability. I mean absolutely no offense but IPO dogs bite on the sleeve, not wherever on a helper's is most practical for a take down. Maybe these officers were speaking on IPO lightly but I suppose I'll see for myself after I attend an event.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


For someone who just got touchy about people questioning their dog's nerve and broad brush stroking their dog's temperament...You sure did just make an all encompassing judgement on a sport you aren't involved in and know little about.

Each club has their own goals, their own training styles, their own standards...some are more obedience oriented, some want to really get into a dog's defense drives, some go for all flash, some go for it all. I certainly wouldn't say all IPO dogs are only going to bite a sleeve, or all police dogs have nerves of steel, or all military dogs are biting machines, or all bite trained dogs aren't going to bite "for real,"....it simply isn't that simple. I've met a police dog that I could get to not bite me (a 5'5 female), by giving them the stink eye as they found me, I've met sport dogs that would bite me "for real," and I've met the opposite of both. I wouldn't generalize much, the examples run the gamut...at least from what I've seen.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Once you show your dog it can bite a human, even with a sleeve, it's a liability. If your dog doesn't have the nerve to decipher between the training field and real life...it's a liability. If your dog already has the propensity to decide it needs to react aggressively at non threats, or just regular people, it will now learn that it has the ability to bite them. At this point, your dog has probably been taught to not bite people at all, once you start bite work...that gets turned around.
> 
> Please go look at a training before you start making uneducated comments about showiness and impracticality. Sure, the obedience (heeling) is more flashy and showy, but I can guarantee you that most of the dogs bite just as hard if not harder than those K9s you speak of. Most K9 handlers also have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to dog training or the sport.
> 
> ...


 
exactly my concerns - which is why management needs to be changed .


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

zetti said:


> Please post trial info after it's over, especially your impressions of SDA. Thanks!





I've been involved with SDA for a couple years now. I love it! It has something for everyone. I that SDA has about 15 different titles depending on what you want to do with your dog. It keeps it fun.


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

Cant remember if I commented on this thread already, but I intend on doing some IPO work with my new pup. Not with a club really, because there isn't one near here, but just some of the training methods and tracking to keep a well rounded pup with a bit of vareity in his life.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> I've been involved with SDA for a couple years now. I love it! It has something for everyone. I that SDA has about 15 different titles depending on what you want to do with your dog. It keeps it fun.


Thanks. Do you have any videos you can post? The closest SDA club to me is Jim & Cindy's--9 hours away.

As the sport grows, I'd really like to know more.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

zetti said:


> Thanks. Do you have any videos you can post? The closest SDA club to me is Jim & Cindy's--9 hours away.
> 
> As the sport grows, I'd really like to know more.


Are you North, South or East? There is also a club in Lancaster, Ca. That's the north side of Los Angeles county, 

On this page of the SDA site, there are videos for a lot of the titles. Both OB and Protection. 
Service Dogs of America


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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> For someone who just got touchy about people questioning their dog's nerve and broad brush stroking their dog's temperament...You sure did just make an all encompassing judgement on a sport you aren't involved in and know little about.
> 
> Each club has their own goals, their own training styles, their own standards...some are more obedience oriented, some want to really get into a dog's defense drives, some go for all flash, some go for it all. I certainly wouldn't say all IPO dogs are only going to bite a sleeve, or all police dogs have nerves of steel, or all military dogs are biting machines, or all bite trained dogs aren't going to bite "for real,"....it simply isn't that simple. I've met a police dog that I could get to not bite me (a 5'5 female), by giving them the stink eye as they found me, I've met sport dogs that would bite me "for real," and I've met the opposite of both. I wouldn't generalize much, the examples run the gamut...at least from what I've seen.


I apologize if I'm coming off as making uneducated statements, I'm trying to have a frank discussion on the different opinions of IPO vs pet dogs. The reason I started this thread is I have heard various opinions about what exactly happens with a dog mentally and behaviorally when they are trained in IPO. The defense work, the building drive to bite humans, etc. 

Some people say IPO is just a sport and these dogs are not protection trained. They see the bite work on the sleeve as something akin to tug and it's a game for them. They are pets competing in a sport and less likely to bite than an untrained dog because of the intense training they undergo. I really have no grounds to know aside from my own personal interest and asking around and thought I would ask for more opinions here. Some say the opposite and having an IPO dog is like having a weapon and compromises a pet dog's ability to be a family dog. 

I did not mean to be rude or offend anyone by suggesting their IPO dog would not attack someone if they needed them to. In short, I am wondering if IPO is a positive experience for a dog in which it learns obedience and control or is IPO training a dog to possibly be aggressive to humans and more of a working weapon than a pet? I was under the impression BH was required to be sure the dog is stable enough in temperament and non-aggressive to even begin IPO to be sure no one is bitten and the dog is obedient enough to be trusted with bite work.

I have zero interest the sort of protection training in which my dog is in a muzzle, launching herself at whatever limb is available for a take down. Nor the sort of training in which I need be worried about my dog biting others that aren't her handler because of what she's been taught. I work on K9 officers in a veterinary setting and they can be a nightmare for even their police handlers for simple vaccines or blood draws. I can certainly believe not all K9 officers know what they are doing and perhaps were blaming "protection training" for what was really poor handling. I was hoping the sort of training these dogs undergo was far different from IPO but perhaps it's not as different as I imagined and both are bringing out a side of the dog that is potential for human aggression and a liability.

Maybe this is one of those things that is up to handler opinion and individual dogs. I look forward to speaking with people who are passionate and involved in IPO locally about their experiences with it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

petite said:


> I apologize if I'm coming off as making uneducated statements, I'm trying to have a frank discussion on the different opinions of IPO vs pet dogs. The reason I started this thread is I have heard various opinions about what exactly happens with a dog mentally and behaviorally when they are trained in IPO. The defense work, the building drive to bite humans, etc.
> 
> Some people say IPO is just a sport and these dogs are not protection trained. They see the bite work on the sleeve as something akin to tug and it's a game for them. They are pets competing in a sport and less likely to bite than an untrained dog because of the intense training they undergo. I really have no grounds to know aside from my own personal interest and asking around and thought I would ask for more opinions here. Some say the opposite and having an IPO dog is like having a weapon and compromises a pet dog's ability to be a family dog.
> 
> ...


Its just that you can't generalize these things so much petite. In both venues or jobs, the dogs are individuals with differing temperaments. I can introduce you to a couple mals that come off the field and would love to climb in your lap for you to pet them, or shepherds that finish protection and play fetch with a 2yr old without ever leaving the field. 

You'll see the same with police dogs. When you get out there and see training, you'll have a different perspective.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The problem is, you're making your statements based of hear say. Most of us don't like that. Just get out there and do it.

A BH is not necessary to train your dog in protection. A BH is necessary if you want to TRIAL on the further levels.

Dogs are generally started with foundation work for protection at a fairly young age. The protection and obedience is worked in tandem so that as the dog matures, you have control, but the dog is also "free" enough to bite and use its natural instincts. I've seen more than a few dogs who have had too much obedience and bite inhibition work and it took months to get them to bite.

An IPO dog doesn't become a killer, but you have to understand that the dog has been shown it can bite an human and is therefore more likely to bite a human in the wrong situation than a dog that hasn't if their temperaments are solid and all other things are equal.

Anything you do with your dog is a positive experience for the dog and for your relationship with the dog. The biggest difference between bite sport and other sport is that you are in all technicality training a dog to bite...something that our culture doesn't really accept. The dog also needs to have the right nerve and temperament more than in other sports because you are training a "dangerous"activity more so than in AKC rally or agility. In those sports, you need the right temperament to compete and to advance or win, but those activities do not present a danger to society if the dog does them outside the training field.

IPO dogs are family dogs, but there is an increased liability...mostly because if your dog bites, it will come out in court that you taught it to bite, which looks like you wanted your dog to bite people. But if you never taught that to your dog, it is more likely to look like a n accident.

You need to really talk and read less, and just go do. It's really hard to get a clear picture of what goes on by just talking to people and reading about their experience. Until you get out there, all these terms and opinions mean very little because you have very little to relate them to.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

From the little experience I've had, for the dogs I've seen it is a positive experience. While we are at training we learn a great deal about handling our dogs over all, not just for those behaviors that look good during an IPO trial. 

Like the previous posters mentioned, humans and dogs are all individuals and there will be a great deal of variations. The best way for you to really know is to visit a few clubs, watch the handlers and the dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think a good way to think of it is this...

I would trust an IPO dog not to bite me way more than a random dog without that training, but...my dog, who only started training bite work at 3 years old, is much more likely to bite you today than he was a year ago if you do present yourself as a threat.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would say that the statements that a dog trained in bitework is more likely to bite someone who presents a legitimate threat than an untrained dog are probably true in many situations. Though we are talking about GSDs here, and part of the breed's make up is a dog that IS willing to engage a legitimate threat, with aggression if necessary.

The key word there is legitimate threat. 

Because of many factors that go into IPO training, I would wager that a dog with this training is far LESS likely to bite someone who is NOT a legitimate threat than the average, untrained dog. Temperament and nerve being equal. This is partly due to the high levels of training and socialization that these dogs go through, which serve to 1) enhance the dog's ability to tell friend from foe and 2) teach the dog to exercise self control, think before he reacts, and maintain the ability to remain clear headed and obedient to the handler when in a state of high drive, high arousal, high stress and when under potential threat. Giving the dog better skills at reading whether or not someone presents a real threat and to also remain under control of his handler and take the handler's lead certainly makes for a safer dog in general.

There is also one very key point that many people forget about IPO. It is not just about teaching dogs to bite. It is equally about teaching dogs when NOT to bite, and teaching them how to modulate their aggression, escalating it when required and toning it back when appropriate to the situation. The hold and bark is just one example.. no biting when simply barking will suffice to contain the threat.

From a real life standpoint I have personally with my own dogs experienced a few situations where they probably would have bitten without the training, but because they were trained they settled for performing a hold and bark instead. I have been in 2 situations where there was the potential for legitimate threat to me, and I've no doubt the dog I had with me at the time would have bitten if the person had not backed off. Fortunately, the person did what many people would do in such a situation and froze stock still in fear, so the dog performed a picture perfect hold and bark until I, having obtained a safe distance, called the dog to me. 

On another occasion, I took 3 dogs out the back door to play ball one day to find someone skulking around in the bushes by our shed on the other side of the driveway. All 3 dogs took off and pinned the person against the tractor, executing perfect hold and barks. It turned out to be the neighbor searching for his lost cat. When the dogs realized who it was, they immediately disengaged before I even had a chance to realize who it was and call them off. They have never done such a thing to someone coming onto the property in a normal fashion (like driving in or walking down the driveway), but sneaking around in the bushes was suspicious and they responded as GSDs should, but showed more restraint in doing so than many untrained dogs would have done.

A friend had a similar situation with her dog when a UPS driver rather than leave his delivery in the garage as usual, chose to enter her fenced back yard where her 2 children and GSD were playing. When she heard barking and screaming, she went outside to find her GSD had the UPS driver pinned against the fence, again doing a perfect hold and bark. The UPS guy was probably glad he has to wear brown pants for work, but while completely freaked out he was also completely unscathed. Again, if not for training, the dog probably would have bitten. Especially when he had children to protect.

I do also know of a situation where an IPO trained dog did bite the person, but only after trying a hold and bark first. When the person tried to scare and beat her away with a running leaf blower, she escalated in response to his escalation and bit first the leaf blower, and when that didn't work she did bite the person. But biting wasn't her first choice and she did so only when in her perspective the threat continued to advance.

From a legal standpoint, any dog bite is potentially problematic. In the majority of cases though if the person is truly a threat, or even just trespassing, the owner of the dog is not going to be found at fault from a criminal law standpoint regardless of if the dog was trained in bitework or not. It would be considered self defense. And if the person was not a threat the owner of the dog is going to be found at fault regardless of bitework training or not. Nothing of course is foolproof from a civil lawsuit where anyone can sue anyone at any time. So I really think that in terms of the law, the liability is no more significant with an IPO dog. In terms of a well temperamented and well trained IPO dog being less likely to bite in inappropriate situations, I think the training certainly has more benefits than it does downsides.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I just have a couple of comments. First, we don’t teach dogs to bite, they come with that ability already there...it’s a standard feature on a dog. Second, the dogs used to be bred for certain genetic traits that gave them the ability to escalate and de-escalate depending on the situation and threat level. It is not something that is taught, it is reinforced.
SchH was designed to test that ability, it wasn’t all about flying thru the air and biting full. Mostly we are teaching the dogs when not to bite when working on a SchH field with a helper with a sleeve on. I have rarely seen dogs nowadays who are working in IPO, who view the helper as much of a threat. You can have a prey oriented dog on an IPO field and an entirely different animal in real life. Whether they can escalate under real duress is not much tested in IPO although SchH some years back did to a higher degree. 
It is who the dog is genetically more than how well it is trained. Again, it is a trait that you reinforce but you cannot install that in a dog via training if he is not genetically sound in his head.
Also, the idea that a dog with less than stellar temperament will be helped by doing IPO is not something I personally would advise. You would be better served finding a competent trainer to help you with the dog’s issues. Simply being a TD in an IPO club does not grant you competence or the ability to understand dogs. So, it will be a case of finding the right club to evaluate your dog.

What the dog views as a "threat" is determined by genetics. It can be influenced to a small degree by training but again, if the dog does not have sound temperament, you are very limited in that regard.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

petite said:


> In short, I am wondering if IPO is a positive experience for a dog in which it learns obedience and control or is IPO training a dog to possibly be aggressive to humans and more of a working weapon than a pet?




In my experience, this has more to do with the individual dog and even more to do with the way the training is done than the particular sport the dog is in.


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