# Troubled GSD. Shock or not?



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The 2nd one was right.
You need a different trainer. Well-respected or well-known doesn't equate "good".

So...am I understanding you have 4 dogs now??

I'm sorry but I'd never keep a dog that was fearful of a family member after a year. 
Shocking works in some situations but not this one.
*wanted to come back to explain that I would not keep this dog because it's quite obvious he is unhappy and very stressed.
I see you've used old methods like pinning the dog down which only serve to confuse and make the dog more unhappy than before.

Clear leadership may help but you need to realize all you've done so far has failed so you need new methods. One of the things people forget is dogs have hormones including stress ones and this dog is stressed to the max. 
Change things or find a new home, if he can't be safely rehomed then you may need to look at other alternatives.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> using a clicker will not give your dog confidence.


Actually, although I'm sure you're excellent w/e-collars, I beg to differ on the above statement you made.

A clicker will in fact give the dog _much_ confidence because it's doing things right. It's exciting and you often see dogs begin offering new behaviors even, because they are happy they are getting it right and not being punished.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Actually, although I'm sure you're excellent w/e-collars, I beg to differ on the above statement you made.
> 
> A clicker will in fact give the dog much confidence because it's doing things right. It's exciting and you often see dogs begin offering new behaviors even, because they are happy they are getting it right and not being punished.


You're welcome to disagree. I disagree with your statement as well. "Getting [something] right and not being punished" does not give a dog confidence. Overcoming adversity does in both animals and humans. In the case that I cited, Roma held her sit in the face of things that used to scare her into fight or flight. She learned that running away or biting wasn't necessary and that merely by holding her position (the overcoming adversity that I mentioned) worked.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting | Karen Pryor Clickertraining <-- for instance


Karen Pryor is about the last person I'd take training advice from. All you've done is to cite someone else's opinion. There's no shortage of those around.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> E-collars also require training to learn to use them correctly.


So does a clicker. I'm always amazed that people can make this kind of statement against Ecollars while overlooking that THE EXACT SAME THING is true of their choice of tools. My website has articles that will teach a complete beginner how to use an Ecollar for these issues. Just teaching the recall and the sit with the tool, will give a dog more confidence. 



Jag said:


> E-collars are for specific instances/dogs, and on a sharp/shy dog that is fear aggressive you're setting yourself up for catastrophic results!!


In fact, the Ecollar is the PERFECT tool for such a dog because they perceive that the stim comes from the environment, not the handler. 



Jag said:


> Not only do you need a trainer/behavioralist, you need one that has dealt SPECIFICALLY with sharp/shy GERMAN SHEPHERDS!


Nah, not true. Hundreds of people with dogs like this have used my articles, and trained their dogs to their complete satisfaction. 



Jag said:


> I can't emphasize this enough. You may very well have to find another home for this guy.


I've never had anyone who used my methods who had to rehome a dog. 




Jag said:


> Before I got more informed on what made a good breeder for these dogs, I got a male pup that was very frightened. I worked with him to build confidence. I had him evaluated by a GSD behavioralist. I was told after a few sessions that the safest course of action was to put him down.


I've worked with some of the most aggressive dogs around, Roma was one such example. She was so reactive that if she walked from shade into bright sunlight, someone was gonna get bit. I didn't recommend that she be put down, in fact I've NEVER made such a recommendation. Behaviorists who give this advice, usually are only showing their own inability and incompetence. 



Jag said:


> The trainer said there was just no way. She told me "you can work with and fix issues that are caused by events. You cannot fix bad genetics. He is a danger to everyone and should NOT be passed on to another family." Sadly, we felt we had to choice but to euthanize him.


You can't control genetics and you can't control what's in a dog's head, but you can control behavior. Granted there will always be the "Charles Manson's" of the dog world, but they are few and far between. Anyone who recommends that you put down a dog based on an Internet Forum discussion, without ever having seen a dog is giving BAD ADVICE! No one should be making diagnoses with such a recommendation, without ever having seen the dog. 



Jag said:


> There are THOUSANDS of GSD's that this happens to every single year. This is why I absolutely believe that the US needs to grow a set and implement better laws on breeding of certain breeds (and certain animals).


Given the freedom that we enjoy in the US, it will probably never happen. We don't need more government regulation, that leads to a nanny state that tries to control every facet of our lives. We need for people to educate themselves and not buy dogs from BYB's. 



Jag said:


> I'm NOT euthanasia advocating. Not at all. There are other steps you have to take before even considering this.


Glad to see this disclaimer.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

for what it is worth, a trainer i know, trained by diane bauman, says an electronic collar should never be used on a gsd dog. if one is to be used i would only let a trainer that is, the best of the best, use one for training. for me, if my gsd needed this type of correction, i would be thinking, i either have the wrong gsd for me, or i am in the wrong activites for my gsd.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Lou has some testimonials on his website. I have not tried his methods...yet. But I'm very tempted after reading his website. It is very instructive.

Clicker training is great for a lot of things. I use it. But I also use compulsion, also. Some things my dogs would never do if it were up to them, no matter how many treats you give them, so a firm gentle hand gets them past that point.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> In fact, the Ecollar is the PERFECT tool for such a dog because they perceive that the stim comes from the environment, not the handler.


This can backfire and I've seen it. I've seen dogs that, when shocked, went right after the handler. So this statement is maybe true in some cases but not all.
And some dogs are too soft to use this type correction - at all.
Since the OP has been using punishment based techniques and failing, I would never recommend more punishment based techniques.

That is, (to paraphrase) "there is punishment (shocks), and when the dog behaves, the punishment is removed". This is very _old school_ thought and while maybe some dogs responded to it, I see far more punishment based methods fail on these dogs than work, if the training and aggression sections are to be believed.

I'm always amazed that so many trainers think GSDs need punishment only training. These dogs do have brains and behave rather like many other dogs; that is, they _thrive_ on positive reinforcement. 

No offense, Lou, but you have a product to sell. Of course you're going to say it works for "all dogs"! It's like...when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And you're not only using just hammers, you're selling them!

However, I am a rescuer - I've seen and heard of these methods failing and failing and these dogs come to us broken, wind up in shelters broken. Positive methods have never done that to dogs. Oh, and I recommend positive and/or clickers, and I have nothing to sell anyone. I'm not biased and I'm not earning any money from it - I just know it works.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

huntergreen said:


> for what it is worth, a trainer i know, trained by diane bauman,


Lol. It's not worth very much. I know a guy who knows a guy, who's the second cousin of a guy who used to play second base for the Dodgers who likes Ecollars ... Dropping Ms. Bauman's name in this manner, is a waste of our time. 



huntergreen said:


> says an electronic collar should never be used on a gsd dog.


People who make absolute statements are wrong. Wait, isn't that an absolute statement? 



huntergreen said:


> if one is to be used i would only let a trainer that is, the best of the best, use one for training.


That's good advice for YOU to follow, since it comes from you. But hundreds of people who have never before used an Ecollar, have used the articles on my site to train their dogs to their satisfaction. It's one of the easiest tools to learn to use. It doesn’t take any athletic ability, as does a leash and correction collar. It doesn't require great timing as does a clicker and the instructions are easy to follow. 



huntergreen said:


> for me, if my gsd needed this type of correction, i would be thinking, i either have the wrong gsd for me, or i am in the wrong activites for my gsd.


It's really a shame that you haven't learned that there's more ways to use an Ecollar than just to administer a correction. What activities do you do with your GSD?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

FlyAway said:


> Lou has some testimonials on his website. I have not tried his methods...yet. But I'm very tempted after reading his website. It is very instructive.


Thanks for the kind words. I suggest that you also take a look at this article Simon It's about Larry Tillack, a SAR trainer/handler who had never before used an Ecollar (except for stockbreaking) who saved the life of an aggressive dog in the space of three days! 



FlyAway said:


> Clicker training is great for a lot of things. I use it. But I also use compulsion, also. Some things my dogs would never do if it were up to them, no matter how many treats you give them, so a firm gentle hand gets them past that point.


Clicker training is GREAT for teaching dogs tricks and behaviors. What's it's not so good at is getting reliability with those behaviors. Doing so takes an inordinate amount of time and expertise.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> In fact, the Ecollar is the PERFECT tool for such a dog because they perceive that the stim comes from the environment, not the handler.





msvette2u said:


> This can backfire and I've seen it. I've seen dogs that, when shocked, went right after the handler. So this statement is maybe true in some cases but not all.


It would probably be best if you're going to criticize tools that you find out a bit about how the person who's suggesting them uses them. What you claim you've seen CAN happen with high levels of stim, something that I SPECIFICALLY say not to use. It DOES NOT HAPPEN with low level stim, where the dog can first feel it. 



msvette2u said:


> And some dogs are too soft to use this type correction - at all.


It would appear that you're in the same boat as huntergreen, in that you seem to only know about using an Ecollar to give a dog a correction. Too bad really. It leads you to give incorrect, inappropriate advice, like this. AGAIN, the Ecollar, used with my methods is the perfect tool for very soft dogs. The stim can be tailored to exactly the level that the dog needs. Using an Ecollar that has at least 100 levels of stim makes this easy. 



msvette2u said:


> Since the OP has been using punishment based techniques and failing, I would never recommend more punishment based techniques.


I suggest that you learn more about using Ecollars. Using one with my methods involves REINFORCEMENT as much as it does punishment. In any case, there's nothing wrong with punishment except that those who favor the so−called "kinder gentler methods" have tried to demonize the word. 



msvette2u said:


> That is, (to paraphrase) "there is punishment (shocks), and when the dog behaves, the punishment is removed".


Thanks for making my point. When the stim is removed, REINFORCEMENT is the result. 



msvette2u said:


> This is very old school thought and while maybe some dogs responded to it


It's hardly "old school." It's a fact of life that ALL animals respond to it, from the blue whale to single cells organisms. 



msvette2u said:


> I see far more punishment based methods fail on these dogs than work, if the training and aggression sections are to be believed.


Actually what you see are POORLY USED methods that use punishment (there is no such thing as a _"punishment based method"_ any more than there is such a thing as a _"reinforcement based method."_) It's an artifice invented by those who favor the so−called "kinder gentler methods" to try to make the world a black and white place. It's not. Never has been, never will be. 



msvette2u said:


> I'm always amazed that so many trainers think GSDs need punishment only training.


A gross exaggeration if ever there was one. Please show us ANYWHERE that a trainer has advocated _"punishment only training."_ 



msvette2u said:


> These dogs do have brains and behave rather like many other dogs; that is, they thrive on positive reinforcement.


The truth is that what works best for teaching and training is a balanced approach that uses BOTH punishment and reinforcement. Imagine teaching someone to drive using only _"positive reinforcement."_ Just ignore all those traffic collisions and they'll stop, right? 



msvette2u said:


> No offense, Lou, but you have a product to sell.


I am offended. Trying to get people to believe that the only reason that I'm writing these posts is for personal gain, is offensive. I like dogs. I want them to be trained as quickly as possible so that they don't get taken to the pound and PTS. In my experience, and that involves putting Ecollars on thousands of dogs, the fastest and easiest way (for both the dog and the handler) to rehab dogs like this is with the Ecollar. 



msvette2u said:


> Of course you're going to say it works for "all dogs"!


Again, I'm offended. I'm offended that someone would try to put words into my mouth in an attempt to win an argument. I've never made such a statement and I challenge you to show where I have made that statement, or to apologize to the OP and to me for intentionally trying to mislead him and other forum members. 



msvette2u said:


> It's like...when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And you're not only using just hammers, you're selling them!


Yes, I sell Ecollars. Thanks for the free advertising. But your statement that I'm _"using just hammers"_ is so inaccurate that it rises to the level of a lie. But let's not call you a liar, let's just say that you're mistaken. I use just about every tool that exists in dog training today. It's just that I know when certain tools are appropriate and when they are not. You don't even seem to know that an Ecollar can be used for other than giving corrections. 



msvette2u said:


> However, I am a rescuer –


Me too. Got one in here right now that I'm going to train for SAR. And he's not the first. 



msvette2u said:


> I've seen and heard of these methods failing and failing and these dogs come to us broken, wind up in shelters broken.


Oh good grief. I get so tired of these "pulling at the heart strings" arguments. My experience is quite different. I've seen the so−called "kinder gentler methods" fail repeatedly. Because the owners are not able to get their dogs trained or solve problems thousands of them wind up being killed in shelters. 



msvette2u said:


> Positive methods have never done that to dogs.


Yes they have, but your inability to admit that it has, weakens your argument. 



msvette2u said:


> Oh, and I recommend positive and/or clickers, and I have nothing to sell anyone. I'm not biased and I'm not earning any money from it - I just know it works.


I've been selling Ecollars for about a decade now. ONLY in the last two years did I earn any money from it. So far, it's been a loss for me. And so, your straw man argument fails on many levels. 

Pretending that you don't have anything _"to sell anyone"_ is quite misleading. You have an idea and an ethos that you're pushing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Oh, and I recommend positive and/or clickers, and I have nothing to sell anyone. I'm not biased and I'm not earning any money from it - I just know it works.


Don't you have a "store" where you sell products to people/adopters? I remember a thread on DNA testing that you were considering adding to what you sell.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Actually, although I'm sure you're excellent w/e-collars, I beg to differ on the above statement you made.
> 
> *A clicker will in fact give the dog much confidence* because it's doing things right. It's exciting and you often see dogs begin offering new behaviors even, because they are happy they are getting it right and not being punished.


 
Actually, the clicker doesn't do a thing for the dog! The click is simply a "Marker" that tells the dog that something good is coming. (like using "YES" as a verbal marker!)

If you doubt this, then try training a dog with ONLY a clicker and no further reward (Treat or praise for example) and let us know how fast the training goes.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Actually, the clicker doesn't do a thing for the dog! The click is simply a "Marker" that tells the dog that something good is coming. (like using "YES" as a verbal marker!)
> 
> If you doubt this, then try training a dog with ONLY a clicker and no further reward (Treat or praise for example) and let us know how fast the training goes.



:thumbup: like


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I just want to offer my humble and likely meaningless opinion 

I was considering an ecollar for Rocket earlier this summer and talked with Lou on the phone. I found him to be extremely knowledgeable, helpful and not once did he mention buying a collar from him. I in fact had to ask him and then had to email him because I couldn't find where on his site to buy. Due to financial constraints, I've had to wait-- but am still going to use one. I need an ABSOLUTE ROCK-SOLID recall off of game; we took Rocket backpacking last week deep into the Cabinet Mountain Wilderness in Montana, otherwise known as grizzly country. He has extremely high prey drive. My Labrador was trained with an ecollar using Lou's methods (not by me) and was the best dog I have had ever. (so far, heh) Also, my niece just trained her hunting Labrador with an ecollar; he's now three and she doesn't use it anymore. He is a happy, joyful dog. 

This dog may need more-- at the least, he needs someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING WITH AN ECOLLAR in this situation. Ecollars are NOT about correction-- they are about training. 

Good luck, OP.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Samba said:


> I am thinking that a number of approaches might be utilized. The effectiveness is highly dependant on the skill and ability of the trainer. I have used corrective type things,mpositive approaches etc. I have had some success with all and botched all of them also!
> The ability to be neutral, ability to read and understand a dog and the ability to apply a tool all make a huge difference!
> 
> Hopefully we will some day get over speaking against most training tools. They are all pretty viable in themselves depending on he situation and dog. The most important thing in the whole attempt to train or teach is the owner. There is no way to underestimate the importance of the human first and foremost in the equation of behavior modification.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

LouCastle... sorry, but I disagree with pretty much every statement you've made. You can put an e-collar on a soft dog on the very lowest stim and get a traumatized dog. Been there, done that. 

I don't know what type of dogs will think that it "came from the environment" but my GSD's knew EXACTLY where it was coming from. They knew what the remote looked like and responded accordingly when I even picked it up. They didn't have the collar on. It *is* punishment. You can call it whatever else you like, but it's not a reward. Using an e-collar on a sharp/shy dog or a fearful dog will get you an increase in the same. No, sorry, it wasn't a "bad" trainer, nor was it a trainer that was inadequate. Don't really care about politics, but what I *do* care about is the fact that there are thousands of GSD's with weak heads, poor nerves and cruddy temperaments that are being bred every single year in the US. There are 100 GSD pups that have severe issues due to bad breeding for every 1 that's OK. I'm not talking "top of the line working" either... I'm talking dogs that can be in companion homes without fear of becoming a danger to others. 

There are dogs where correction works just fine *with* reward based training. However, you go and put an e-collar on an unbalanced dog and you won't see the same results. I've found when someone's all gung ho about a certain training technique, they'll defend it even when there's proof to the contrary. No one training technique will work for every type of dog in every situation. I've also never met a GSD who didn't become "collar smart".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Don't you have a "store" where you sell products to people/adopters? I remember a thread on DNA testing that you were considering adding to what you sell.


LOL Yah Jax. You don't read my posts yet here you are...!

I "sell" Lupine collars. GASP!!!
Not clickers, books, or anything of the sort. If anything, you can get clickers free at Petsmart, or they are a buck! Wow!
I get no commission for recommending any positive trainer, either. I just do, because I know it works. And others on here have agreed, we have seen dogs blossom with it, over and over.

Got any other "skeletons" you wanna drag out??


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Compulsion wouldn't have worked with either Basu or Kai b/c they would simply shut down under that kind of pressure.


This is what I see over and over in this section. Compulsion based training _failed. _
Nobody comes on here stating positive reinforcement _failed!_

From Lou's website (for those who say Ecollars _aren't_ punishment)


> The *penalty* for going into fight or flight as Roma was doing, is the *discomfort* of the stimulation. Please note that I'm still working at the level where the dog first feels the stimulation. *The dog wants to avoid that penalty* and as such, holds her position. A child rides by on a bike, and where the dog used to chase and try to bite that child, *she is forced* to hold her sit. She is doing the work. She is not being restrained by a leash. Lo and behold, nothing *bad* happens to the dog.


Sounds a lot like punishment to me!?



> Jen purchased an Ecollar from me,


'nuff said...!

Myths
This page certainly makes it sound like a one-size-fits-all training method, no matter what the issue. 
At last that's what I get out of this.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, Jocoyn just said positive/clicker failed for her dog. 

And I'm sorry, but Rocket wouldn't even stick around long enough to HEAR the "wait" command if he saw a bear or cougar, let alone a click/treat I'm sure. Thank god we've never found out. But I could wave a raw, bloody piece of steak, liver, bone, whatever and he could care less if there's another dog and he's off-leash. Mr. Friendly thinks he needs to meet everyone off leash. He's very leash/long line savvy, so I need something off-leash. Do I still use the positive? You bet. Did I clicker train and do I believe in it? You bet. But the post above yours says it all. No one method works in all situations, for every dog. Some methods even won't work on the SAME dog in different situations. We are all here to share information-- unless someone is advocating cruel and unusual punishment, people should try to keep open minds. If something might work for a dog, that person deserves to hear about the method, regardless if we like it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The key is to teach a recall with no distractions and build up distractions, not wait until the cougar is there


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

You mean like I've been doing for 13 months?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

RocketDog said:


> You mean like I've been doing for 13 months?


LOL Yep. Git 'er done...!!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

BowWowMeow said:


> I rehabbed Basu (and Kai) using positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning. I did not use any compulsion with either dog. Basu went from being scared of everything and fear aggressive to people to being predictable in his behaviors. He was 4.5 when I adopted him and * it took several years to get him anywhere near "normal." * [Emphasis Added]


Thanks for making my point. You are to be saluted for having the desire and the ability to stick with training for this long. Most people would no. 



BowWowMeow said:


> Compulsion wouldn't have worked with either Basu or Kai b/c they would simply shut down under that kind of pressure.


While you may be correct that _"compulsion wouldn't have worked ..."_ with these dogs, I've never had any dogs that could not withstand the very slight pressure that the Ecollar, used properly, applies.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> LouCastle... sorry, but I disagree with pretty much every statement you've made. You can put an e-collar on a soft dog on the very lowest stim and get a traumatized dog. Been there, done that.


So, rather than saying, as you did that _"[I, meaning me] can put an e-collar on a soft dog"_ and get a bad result, this is what *YOU * have had happen! As you tell us, you've _"done that."_ I'd be willing to bet the farm that you DID NOT use my methods of using the Ecollar. If you had, you'd not have gotten this result. 



Jag said:


> I don't know what type of dogs will think that it "came from the environment" but my GSD's knew EXACTLY where it was coming from.


Yep more proof that you didn't use the Ecollar properly. 



Jag said:


> They knew what the remote looked like and responded accordingly when I even picked it up.


EVEN MORE proof that you didn't use the Ecollar properly. My articles contain instructions and advice so that this does not happen. No less an expert than behaviorist Steven Lindsay, author of the (very expensive) three book set, _Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior And Training,_ Pg 611, says,


> In practice, * dogs do not appear to link ES with the handler, especially persons with whom the dog is closely attached and familiar. * In fact, the most interesting uses of the collar depend on this lack of aversive association, including lasting reward and opponent safety effects. [Emphasis Added]





Jag said:


> It *is* punishment. You can call it whatever else you like, but it's not a reward.


I’m sorry but you are factually wrong. There are TWO phases to the press of the button of an Ecollar. The first applies discomfort, that is punishment, +P to be precise. The second phase REMOVES that discomfort, that is reinforcement, -R to be precise. I've never said that it's a _"reward,"_ but it ***is*** rewarding. 



Jag said:


> Using an e-collar on a sharp/shy dog or a fearful dog will get you an increase in the same.


Sorry but again, you're wrong. You've already shown us a couple of times that you didn't use the Ecollar per my methods and that you don't know very much about them or training in general. A more accurate statement would be that if _"[YOU used] an e-collar on a sharp/shy dog or a fearful dog [YOU] will get an increase in the same."_ It's a mistake to believe that others would use the Ecollar in the same, improper way (for such a dog) that you did. 



Jag said:


> No, sorry, it wasn't a "bad" trainer, nor was it a trainer that was inadequate.


Based on what you've told us, it appears that it was BOTH. 



Jag said:


> There are dogs where correction works just fine *with* reward based training.


Huh? Correction isn't used with what most people call _"reward based training."_ 



Jag said:


> However, you go and put an e-collar on an unbalanced dog and you won't see the same results.


AGAIN, this may (and based on what you've told us) does apply to YOU. It's a mistake to think that it applies to everyone. My website contains several testimonials from people who had dogs similar to this one, and they were able to rehab their dogs. Aggressive Dogs

Here are a couple of brief comments from some of them. Nancy wrote, _"I did all you said and even though my timing was not perfect, there was an instantaneous change in Rosie's attitude."_ Pamela wrote, _"I'm very excited to see the progress we have made in only about 10 days."_ A UK pet owner wrote, _"I followed Lou's anti crittering protocol to the letter and we had a big time success. I am so happy. It took about half an hour to get him to the other dog calmly, but we did it."_ The OP's issues are not identical to the ones that these owners had, but you get the gist. Didja notice the time frames mentioned in these letters? 




Jag said:


> I've found when someone's all gung ho about a certain training technique, they'll defend it even when there's proof to the contrary.


The _"proof to the contrary"_ that's been supplied has obviously come from people either who have used the tool improperly or who are against it based on ethos and/or emotion. 



Jag said:


> No one training technique will work for every type of dog in every situation.


Thanks for your straw man argument. No one has made such a statement. 



Jag said:


> I've also never met a GSD who didn't become "collar smart".


Then you've never met a dog who was properly trained with my methods. 

These back and forths always go the same way. Those who are opposed to the Ecollar talk almost exclusively (as you do) about the Ecollar used improperly. And they only talk about their methods as used properly and competently. OTOH, I talk about both kinds of tools, used properly.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> I think that a clicker can be better for some dogs as the human voice is sometimes not as consistent and can give different signals. I am thinking of trying the clicker with Gretta as she seems to turn into a noodle/nut when I praise her.


What happens with your dog is one of a couple of reasons why clicker folks prefer the clicker over the voice. Another reason is that it's more "precise," marking the exact moment when the dog is right. I keep losing the darned things so I use my voice. For those dogs who lose control when praised, I lower my voice and just say "Good." 



selzer said:


> Only now, I have to figure out how to juggle the clicker and treats and leash. Pretty tough for people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time.


In all fairness, if you were to use an Ecollar you'd have to learn to _"juggle"_ the leash and the Ecollar. It's just a new skill. "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" Practice.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> To me, each dog is different and you need to know what is out there so that if you need it, there may be resources to pull from. I have seen it go both ways.
> 
> Had a fear reactive dog who really responded well to correction and after two years of clicking / desensitization / attention etc. without much progress I had a 10 minute session with a police officer and worked with him correcting for breaking a command due to being distracted by another dog. He just needed to know I was in charge of the situation and would correct him if he did not comply. A correction worked well for him but all the warm fuzzies, abandonment training, clickers etc did nothing.


Hi Nancy. I have a very different theory as to why this was effective. Some think it's a bit "airy fairy." I don't think it was a matter of the dog _"need[ing] to know that [you] were in charge of the situation..."_ I think that he was forced to hold his position by the "unseen hand" of the Ecollar. Fight or flight responses, even at the lowest level of simply moving away, are very self rewarding. The dog "survives" the situation. In this situation, he could not manifest a fight or flight response, and yet he "survived." He learned that he did not have to go into fight or flight and so he could exist in another way in the world. It's a small theory, but mine own. lol


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> This is what I see over and over in this section. Compulsion based training _failed. _
> Nobody comes on here stating positive reinforcement _failed!_


Really? Nancy just told us that it failed with her dog! ROFL. This list (and most others) have many posts that start out with something like "HELP, Fido won't come when I call!" or "Fido chases deer and I'm afraid I'll lose him in the woods!" Those are often failures of +R. 

msvette2u quotes from my website (although not accurately. She add quite a bit of emphasis, that is not there. It suits her purpose so (based on results) she does not feel a need to add that SHE placed the emphasis that appears in what then amounts to a MISquote). 

Here's the accurate (unmodified) quotation. Http://www.loucastle.com/roma2


> The penalty for going into fight or flight as Roma was doing, is the discomfort of the stimulation. Please note that I'm still working at the level where the dog first feels the stimulation. The dog wants to avoid that penalty and as such, holds her position. A child rides by on a bike, and where the dog used to chase and try to bite that child, she is forced to hold her sit. She is doing the work. She is not being restrained by a leash. Lo and behold, nothing bad happens to the dog.





msvette2u said:


> Sounds a lot like punishment to me!?


Displaying how little you know of how an Ecollar works does not serve your argument. As I've said, for every press of the button of an Ecollar, there's a release of that button. The first part is punishment, the *second part is reinforcement. * 

msvette2u again quotes from my site.


> Jen purchased an Ecollar from me





msvette2u said:


> 'nuff said...!


Can you say, "Quoting out of context?" Conveniently she leaves out the fact that in the course of about 25 minutes, I took a dog that literally tried to kill me, and turned her into a dog that climbed into my lap and was licking my face. Conveniently she leaves out the fact that the next day I took a dog that either ran from or tried to bite children playing on a jungle gym, children riding near the dog on bicycles and cars that drove near her and had her sitting quietly, learning a new way to exist in the world. I took a dog that was so would bite someone if she walked from shade into bright sunlight and (after her owner continued the training that I'd started) turned her into a dog that would run from person to person, nuzzling their hands, asking to be petted and shown affection. Yet, msvette2u thinks that because I sold the dog's owner an Ecollar, so that she could continue and maintain the training that it's all about the money for me. ROFL. I was writing posts like these loooooooooong before I became an Ecollar dealer. I did it to that I could get Ecollars into the hands of as many people, as cheaply as possible by giving them the biggest discounts available on them. I've lost money for eight of the ten years that I've been selling them. 

msvette2u supplies a link to a page of Myths that's on my site, and then states 


msvette2u said:


> This page certainly makes it sound like a one-size-fits-all training method, no matter what the issue.
> At last that's what I get out of this.


Looks like you missed Myth #24. Here it is.


> * MYTH: * Ecollars are perfect tools.
> 
> * FACT: * Ecollars have quite a few drawbacks. First and foremost, they're expensive. The cost will keep many people away from them. Another, is that they're operated (most of them) by rechargeable batteries. You have to remember to keep them charged up. (Of course, with those that make use of user-replaceable batteries, you have to remember to keep spares on hand). Another is that you have to remember to turn them on. This seems obvious, but you'd be surprised how often people forget this. (I've forgotten this many times when teaching seminars. It's probably because I'm distracted by questions. Yeah, that's it. LOL). Another problem is that if you have more than one, you have to bring the proper transmitter to go with the collar you're using. This won't be a problem for those with only one Ecollar.


And, as before, she persists with her straw man argument. NO ONE has said that Ecollars will work for all dog or for all issues. Certainly NOT a _"one-size-fits-all training method"_ as she keep trying to attribute to me. BTW thanks for posting all these links to my site, readership is up!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> The key is to teach a recall with no distractions and build up distractions, not wait until the cougar is there





RocketDog said:


> You mean like I've been doing for 13 months?





msvette2u said:


> LOL Yep. Git 'er done...!!


Yeah, Rocket just keep it up for another 13 months........ Oops, msvette2u, looks like someone ELSE has written in with ANOTHER failure of _"positive reinforcement."_ You told us that _"Nobody comes on here stating ... [that it's] failed."_ 

Hmm. Or is it your (highly absurd) position that no matter how long it takes to get results, if people just keep working at it, it will come? What a convenient way to make yourself right. "Just keep training for [infinity] and you'll get results. Yasee, people shouldn't have to wait for inordinate amounts of time for training to take effect. _"13 months"_ is about 10 months too long for what is a life saving, very simple behavior, like a recall. I get a reliable, off leash recall, in the face of distractions in a couple of days if I work at it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lou, are you confused? You say "you", then revert to "she" in reference to me.
You also have a link - to your own website - right there in your signature! The more you post the more it gets posted.

Obviously you're right and everyone who disagrees is to be ridiculed and demeaned. Others have also given their own accounts of how shock collars backfired and how many dogs got _worse._ Yet you cannot or else won't even acknowledge them. 
And you insist your hammer is not seeking nails in every situation, yet state "I've never had any dogs that could not withstand the very slight pressure that the Ecollar, used properly, applies." thus proving my point that you'll use them in every single situation. 

As with the usual way the conversations go, you ridicule positive while not even having (apparently, from the looks of your website) tried it. 
Yet I've tried shock collars and they backfire badly (dogs often KNOW who is doing the punishment and will become more aggressive, this is a fact), and others have stated the same.

At least I can admit that there may be times a shock collar is useful, and that a training kit ought to contain all kinds of tools. Look back on page ONE for that information.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LouCastle said:


> Hi Nancy. I have a very different theory as to why this was effective. Some think it's a bit "airy fairy." I don't think it was a matter of the dog _"need[ing] to know that [you] were in charge of the situation..."_ I think that he was forced to hold his position by the "unseen hand" of the Ecollar. Fight or flight responses, even at the lowest level of simply moving away, are very self rewarding. The dog "survives" the situation. In this situation, he could not manifest a fight or flight response, and yet he "survived." He learned that he did not have to go into fight or flight and so he could exist in another way in the world. It's a small theory, but mine own. lol


Lou, this particular dog was corrected with a pinch collar. I adjusted my timing so not to correct the all out lunging and out of control behavior but to correct (in a controlled fashion) faiture to look at me or sit or do whatever I commanded when the situation arose. He wound up doing quite well and I could take him anywhere but I did not push him to nose to nose or playing with other dogs either.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i'm sure the op has headed for the hills, since this has turned into lou's thread. lou it makes me tired just skimming thru...lolol...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

LouCastle,
You've made some leaping assumptions over and over. Anyone who disagrees with you or doesn't have the same results as you think they should have is "wrong" or "doesn't know what they're doing". You mention zealots on your website. You are one of them. You've assumed I've had no professional training with e-collars, or that the professional consulted was "wrong" or "didn't know what they were doing". Considering you don't know who the professional is, that's really out of line. You're also assuming that I'm totally against e-collars. This "assumption" is wrong. You know what they say about assumptions...and you make a lot of them. Just what are YOUR certifications/qualifications? I'm asking because I'm not going to assume you're a certified, licensed trainer or that you're not. Where did you get your certification from (what training school did you go through) if you are? 

According to YOUR own website, my use of e-collars was correct to avoid a "collar smart" dog. Maybe my dogs are just smarter than the ones you've worked with, I really don't know. You state that correction isn't used with reward based training (you aren't giving rewards for correct responses from the dog) yet on your own website you DO, in fact, talk of giving rewards as well. Even going so far as to talk about NILF (which gives a reward for correct responses from the dog). 

Now, just so maybe you'll stop with your incorrect accusations and assumptions... I did have a dog that had behavior modification with an e-collar. However, this was a confident dog with a strong head. This was done through a certified trainer who went to an actual school for dog training (not over the internet, either, since this wasn't even an option at the time). He was also a licensed behaviorist, specializing in GSD's. He didn't just slap an e-collar on a dog. The dog was evaluated, with his responses to many different things carefully recorded. His thresholds were tested. His decision making was evaluated. His responses to people, animals, handler being approached, etc. were all evaluated. This was not a 10 minute eval, either. Only after this dog was properly evaluated was the decision made on his plan of action. I do not advocate telling someone that's having dog issues to use this without a proper evaluation being done. In fact, I've gone to several trainers over my many years who all say the same thing. Yes, used PROPERLY, an e-collar is a tool that can be safely used on some dogs. Not all dogs. You can continue to make snarky and unfounded comments about it all day long. It doesn't change the truth. On your "testimonials" I was surprised and saddened to see that quite a few of the people using them did not state that they'd had their dog evaluated, nor did they state they'd tried other options before resorting to the e-collar. (Not all trainers are behaviorists) They may have tried one or two things, but certainly didn't exhaust all other options. You have ONE positive testimonial from someone with a shy, fear-biting dog. 

I'm not against the use of an e-collar used correctly. However, I do have issue with a person who claims it will work for any dog and takes time to bash people who happen to disagree. Even to go so far as to claim that trainers who disagree aren't good trainers and don't know what they're doing. I feel if you're going to do that, you at least should be willing to share your credentials including schools you attended. This way, you're able to be taken at least half seriously.. and it's more courtesy than what you've extended to myself and others.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think Lou would love to put an e-collar on us...don't agree with me?? ZAP!!


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## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

I haven't read through all the replies - but just wanted to add:

My sister has a pitbull : When Molly was still a pup around 8 months old, she had started growling at their ****zu, Molly was going for obedience training and when my sister mentionned the growling to the trainer he said this needs to be stopped immediately - so what does he recommend - of course an e-collar ($400) in his pocket - when she told me I begged her not to use it - but the trainer knows best right???? 

So on goes the e-collar and sure enough that evening the ****zu (Austin) passed near Molly - Molly growls, my sister corrects the dog with the e-collar and ALL **** BROKE LOOSE - Molly assumed it was the ****zu that was causing the pain around her neck so she ATTACKED Austin and my sister kept trying to get her off by using the e-collar and pulling ..... for the next two years the two dogs could not be in the same room together and poor Austin went to live in the basement - so two years ago Austin came to live with us.....he has no issues with my dogs.

But Molly still HATES - ****zu's 

My sister knew it was the e-collar that caused that attack and ruined Molly............. she never used the e-collar again and when she told the trainor he said she should have turned the voltage up...........if the shock would have been strong enough Molly would have let go. My sister never went back to see that trainer either.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Some people are good at training dogs, some are good at writing their thoughts on the internet. 

I'm not here to debate ecollars or not, I've used them for a few things.

But it would be the last thing I reached for when dealing with a fearful and stressed dog. That's about all I have to say about that.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Molly assumed it was the ****zu that was causing the pain around her neck so she ATTACKED Austin and my sister kept trying to get her off by using the e-collar and pulling


It could just as easily have gone the other way and Molly thought the owner was causing the issue. I bet more of those go by than we know about. What's the outcome then? "The dog is unstable; it attacked a human", now dog is dead?


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## jandr95 (Aug 6, 2011)

*More from the OP...*

Wow. I had no idea the firestorm I was going to ignite with my post. One thing is certain: you guys absolutely love dogs, and I am truly grateful for all the input. 

Let me answer some questions and add a few more details that may help -- or further cloud the whole thing. Let's see.

-Yes, I have four dogs. The young pup Sophie, plus two other dogs. He pretty much ignores the older dogs. He doesn't really know how to play with them. He has "charged" up to them and when they don't react, he leaves. His fur is down. 

-On the subject of play, he didn't know how. I had to teach him to chase balls by putting treats in a ball and rolling it away. Now he loves to chase the ball. He will chase the ball if my wife throws it but he is tentative and nervous.

-We caged him for the first six months, then eliminated it. Now Sophie has a cage. The trainer we liked recommended giving him back his cage so he has a secure place. We are considering it. 

-My wife and I did take Eli to basic obedience class when we first got him (about a year ago) and he learned quickly. She did most of leash work with him and he responded well to the training and to her and the puppies/dogs around him. 

He knows sit, stay, shake, down (most of the time) and come (some of the time). These commands were learned with treats as a reward. He is not extremely food driven but enough that we could use treats.

-My wife does not smoke and maintains a level tone with Eli at all times.
He will come to her and take treats from her, and she can pet him. He's just a little tentative and will quickly retreat from her. 

-I only "pinned" him once or twice when he growled at her and will not be doing that again.

-I also have four inside cats and he has no issue with them. He will occasionally "mouth" them or nose them in a harmless manner, as if he want to play. 

-He is free in the house with the two older dogs during the day and there have been no issues. Sophie the pup (the one he doesn't seem to like) is caged during the day. 

-Our plan -- for starters -- is to take me somewhat out of the picture. My wife will become Eli's world, the source of all good things (food, play, treats, safety, etc.)...at least to the extent that we can do that. This was recommended by the trainer we liked but it has been difficult to implement since we both work. We want to redouble our efforts.

I don't want to sound like a pollyanna but I believe there is a great dog in Eli and that we can bring it out of him. I am nowhere near giving up on this beautiful animal. I'm not ruling out any type of training either. I will continue to research all the methods discussed here and I welcome all the opinions.

PLEASE, ask me any questions about his behavior you think will help. I am open to all comments and suggestions. What else can I tell you about Eli? 

Thanks again. I'll try to post a couple pictures.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

lolol...crackem, that's about all that _*needed*_ to be said, lolol. op, glad you're back and the thread hijack didn't run you off. even tho some people like to "debate" ALOT, there is just a ton of great experience here that you can take advantage of.

and please, please, google heaven on arf, and check brenda aloff out. she is teriffic and might be just what you need. and i might have misled you about the expense, when i thought back about it she came from to my home, from midland to just south of ann arbor...i could have gone to her and i'm sure it would have been much less costly. besides knowing a whole lot about shepherd behavior, she's a very cool person.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I have to say, I am finding this thread very enlightening. Some may enjoy the bantering...for me, it makes me go out & seek more info. However, IMO – the bantering that has turned into attacks & nastiness really can be shelved. Just because one doesn’t “believe” in the use of ecollars is no reason to be nasty to one who’s been trained to use them correctly. I know – I used to be 'That Person' that was down on all ecollars. I wanted to try all the PC training methods & doggie psychiatrists…but this bickering doesn’t help any of us “newbies”.

First, to the OP - there is a VERY good chance your Eli was abused by a human female in his past. He sounds like a twin to our Ziva. When you adopt from a shelter or Rescue, you have no idea what you're getting. And sometimes, the organization is dishonest about what they 'know' or 'don't know' about the dog. That does not mean the dog has to be PTS, altho obviously that’s an option for some. But, IMO, things can change. We adopted from a (supposed) "good" GSD Rescue. They made a lot of good-sounding claims about this dog. They dropped her off with us & we've not heard from them since.

Our new dog was a nutso. I will not go into all the details. I don’t want to take away from the OP, nor do I want to be blasted any more (like was done at another arena). We tried everything. After thorough exams, the vet told us she had “Brat-itis”. A friend of ours is a K9 handler/local officer & we got help from him. I’ve seen the up-side of the ecollar, in the right hands. And have decided to go that route as soon as we can. (meaning, when the medical expenses go down as they treat my cancer…must wait for it to be in the ‘budget’ ).

Again to the OP – Kudos to you for not giving up. We haven’t either, so I completely understand. IMO, you can hire all the behaviorists you want (& I use that term lightly) – hire 10 of them, you’ll get 10 different opinions. This isn’t a science, they’re opinions. Which we all have. Training & trust will make the difference, again IMO. If I seriously thought a doggie shrink could help Ziva, I’d have 1 at the house today. What has helped a lot is just what you’re saying – making the target (your wife in your case, me in mine) – the source of all things good in Eli’s life. That is not to say your wife should put up with being bitten. I won’t. But, at least now we can see slight obedience improvement & a big change around me --- she’ll actually plop beside me on the floor in front of the TV.

Be willing to try different methods, just don’t fall for the hype in today’s dog-training methods. What works for one may not work for another. All the newer ways of ‘training’ simply did not work on Ziva. BTW – don’t let the “discussion” here over the ecollars sway you 1 way or the other. I’d suggest WATCHING different training methods before you decide. There's a lot to choose from out there - you guys know Eli better than anyone. YOU decide what's best for Eli & your household. (BTW x2 - we also have 4 housecats - interesting interaction between the GSD & the cats, yes?!)


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Lou, are you confused? You say "you", then revert to "she" in reference to me.


Not confused at all. Sometimes my comments are addressed directly to you and sometime they're addressed to the readers about you. 



msvette2u said:


> You also have a link - to your own website - right there in your signature! The more you post the more it gets posted.


Yes, thanks for pointing that out. That link, in my signature line goes to the general website. You've been posting direct links to my articles and people reading these discussions are more likely to go read them. Thanks again. 



msvette2u said:


> Obviously you're right


I’m only right so often because I've been training dogs for quite some time, over three decades now, and I made so many mistakes in getting where I am now. I paid attention to those errors so as not to repeat them. I hardly have all the answers, my seminars all carry the catch line "Part of the answer," but I do have some of them. 



msvette2u said:


> and everyone who disagrees is to be ridiculed and demeaned.


Speaking of _"ridicule[ing] and demean[ing]"_ you might want to take a look back at your very first post in this thread where you _" ridiculed and demeaned"_ the OP's trainer. Pot – Kettle – Black! 



msvette2u said:


> Others have also given their own accounts of how shock collars backfired and how many dogs got _worse._ Yet you cannot or else won't even acknowledge them.


Quite wrong msvette2u. I've _"acknowledge[d]"_ ALL of them with the comment that they show that the Ecollar was used improperly. Somehow in all my 20+ years of using Ecollars I've not once had the experience that these folks report. NO ONE who has used my methods reports them either. And so I've come to the conclusion that when the proper methods are used, they just don't occur. I watched as a woman doing clicker training, got frustrated and threw her clicker at her dog, striking it right next to his eye. Yet I don't cite that as a use of a clicker. Clearly, it was used improperly and abusively. But what you don't want to admit is that the Ecollar is not the only tool that can be misused or applied improperly. In fact, any tool can be misused. Any tool can be abused. And no tool is idiotproof to the right idiot! 



msvette2u said:


> And you insist your hammer is not seeking nails in every situation, yet state "I've never had any dogs that could not withstand the very slight pressure that the Ecollar, used properly, applies." thus proving my point that you'll use them in every single situation.


You might want to read that again. It does NOT mean what you claim it does. Meanwhile, here's a clue. All soldiers are not trees. 



msvette2u said:


> As with the usual way the conversations go, you ridicule positive while not even having (apparently, from the looks of your website) tried it.


You're factually wrong. In a post ADDRESSED TO YOU that even contains a statement that you refer to in this post I wrote this, _"I use just about every tool that exists in dog training today."_ Here's another area where that reading course might help you. 



msvette2u said:


> Yet I've tried shock collars and they backfire badly


ROFL. What you REALLY mean is that *in your hands * _"they backfire badly."_ I'm not shocked, and yes, the pun was intended. Somehow when they're used according to my instructions, they DON'T _"backfire."_ It couldn't possibly be that the problem WAS NOT in the tool itself, rather that it was in the way that YOU used it? Nah, couldn't be. 

Can you tell us a bit about your experience in training. It's painfully obvious that you don't know how to use an Ecollar. 



msvette2u said:


> (dogs often KNOW who is doing the punishment and will become more aggressive, this is a fact), and others have stated the same.


In a previous post I wrote IN RESPONSE TO SOMETHING YOU SAID, _"*What you claim you've seen CAN happen with high levels of stim, * something that I SPECIFICALLY say not to use. It DOES NOT HAPPEN with low level stim, where the dog can first feel it."_ I've placed some emphasis in the repeated statement to draw your attention to AGAIN, where you are wrong. 



msvette2u said:


> At least I can admit that there may be times a shock collar is useful, and that a training kit ought to contain all kinds of tools. Look back on page ONE for that information.


Yes, and? You're recommending against their use here, based on how YOU used (actually MISused one) I know how to use one properly and so does anyone who reads my articles.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> LouCastle,
> You've made some leaping assumptions over and over.


No, not really. Any assumptions that I've made have been drawn from things that people have said. None of them are _"leaps."_ All of them were arrived at reasonably and judiciously. 



Jag said:


> Anyone who disagrees with you or doesn't have the same results as you think they should have is "wrong" or "doesn't know what they're doing".


No, not really. But when you report the sorts of things as you've done it's obvious that you were not using the tool properly. If they occurred, by definition, you were doing it wrong. This includes such things as _"trumatiz[ing]"_ soft dogs, the fact that your _"GSD's knew EXACTLY where it [the stim] was coming from."_ [Emphasis Original] The fact that your dogs _"knew what the remote looked like and responded ... when [you] even picked it up."_ The fact that you claim, in spite of being proven to be wrong several times, that an Ecollar _"*is* punishment."_ when in reality it's BOTH punishment AND reinforcement. That _"Using an e-collar on a sharp/shy dog or a fearful dog will get you an increase in the same."_ and the statement that you've _"never met a GSD who didn't become 'collar smart.' "_ 

These ARE NOT things that occur with proper Ecollar use. Therefore since you've told us that they happened to you the logical, rational assumption is that you used the tool improperly. 



Jag said:


> You mention zealots on your website. You are one of them.


Nope. You're wrong. A zealot will not admit that there's anything wrong or any issues with what they're supporting. I've said that Ecollars aren't perfect both here and on my website. 



Jag said:


> You've assumed I've had no professional training with e-collars,


I made no such assumption. It really makes no difference. 



Jag said:


> or that the professional consulted was "wrong" or "didn't know what they were doing".


Wrong again. I made no such assumption. I said that YOUR use of the Ecollar was wrong. That says nothing about your "professional consultant." Only that you were applying the tool improperly. 



Jag said:


> Considering you don't know who the professional is, that's really out of line.


I made no comment that applies to him. I only addressed your use of the tool. 



Jag said:


> You're also assuming that I'm totally against e-collars.


No, I have not. I have only commented on what you've said here. 



Jag said:


> This "assumption" is wrong. You know what they say about assumptions...and you make a lot of them.


I addressed ONLY what you said were your results. Since those problems don't occur with every use of the Ecollar, it's obvious that the problems lie, not with the tool, but with how YOU used it. 



Jag said:


> Just what are YOUR certifications/qualifications? I'm asking because I'm not going to assume you're a certified, licensed trainer or that you're not. Where did you get your certification from (what training school did you go through) if you are?


Oddly enough, none of the more than 3,000 dogs that I've put Ecollars on asked to see my license! I don't have one, never needed it. I learned-by-doing long before such things existed. If you have such a license, it's proof of the fact that often, such things are not worth the paper that they're printed on. 

I don't like to brag so I'll be brief here. I've done 57 seminars and workshops in 20 states, 42 cities and three foreign countries. For those who want more details I'll refer you to what it says about me on my website. Start at the bottom of this page, Home. 



Jag said:


> According to YOUR own website, my use of e-collars was correct to avoid a "collar smart" dog.


And yet, by your own admission, you did not avoid this condition. Those who have followed my articles report that their dogs are not _"collar smart."_ We can only assume that you didn't do it as I advocate. 



Jag said:


> Maybe my dogs are just smarter than the ones you've worked with, I really don't know.


Yeah, that's the answer. ROFLMFAO. 



Jag said:


> You state that correction isn't used with reward based training


Do you folks ever get tired of *MIS*quoting me? ACTUALLY what I said was this,


> Correction isn't used with *what most people call "reward based training." * [Bold Emphasis Added]





Jag said:


> (you aren't giving rewards for correct responses from the dog)


Cessation of the stim, while it's not a reward, is rewarding. But my website says this about praise.


> * The articles do not mention praising the dog, *except for a few situations in the training where it's specifically necessary. This is not the place to learn to give praise to your dog. This is where you can learn to use the Ecollar. Praise is an integral part of teaching, training and working a dog. It lets the dog know when he's done the right thing. Much Ecollar work is done by letting the dog discover for himself, that he's doing it the right way. [Emphasis Original]





Jag said:


> yet on your own website you DO, in fact, talk of giving rewards as well.


Yes, and? 



Jag said:


> Even going so far as to talk about NILF (which gives a reward for correct responses from the dog).


I don't think that my website talks about NILF. Can you point me to that? 



Jag said:


> Now, just so maybe you'll stop with your incorrect accusations and assumptions...


I've done neither. 



Jag said:


> I did have a dog that had behavior modification with an e-collar. However, this was a confident dog with a strong head. This was done through a certified trainer who went to an actual school for dog training (not over the internet, either, since this wasn't even an option at the time).


WOW, _"an actual school!"_ LOL



Jag said:


> He was also a licensed behaviorist, specializing in GSD's. He didn't just slap an e-collar on a dog. The dog was evaluated, with his responses to many different things carefully recorded. His thresholds were tested. His decision making was evaluated. His responses to people, animals, handler being approached, etc. were all evaluated. This was not a 10 minute eval, either. Only after this dog was properly evaluated was the decision made on his plan of action. I do not advocate telling someone that's having dog issues to use this without a proper evaluation being done.


The best behaviorist in the world is making an educated guess. That's still a guess. If the guess is wrong. So will be the training response. The difference between me and a behaviorst, I know that I don't know what's in a dog's head. 



Jag said:


> In fact, I've gone to several trainers over my many years who all say the same thing. Yes, used PROPERLY, an e-collar is a tool that can be safely used on some dogs. Not all dogs.


AGAIN with the straw man argument. Please show us ANYWHERE, that I've said that an Ecollar can be used on all dogs. In fact, I've written many times that I'm sure that somewhere out there is a dog that an Ecollar won't work on. But in my use of the tool, on over 3,000 dogs, and I stopped counting long ago, every one of them responded properly. The fact that you've had adverse results speaks ONLY to YOUR use of the tool, not to my use, anyone else's use or the tool. 



Jag said:


> You can continue to make snarky and unfounded comments about it all day long.


I will admit that I'm human. I sometimes respond to the way that I'm treated by returning nastiness. I suggest that if you don't like _"snarky"_ then you shouldn't start or join it. 



Jag said:


> It doesn't change the truth. On your "testimonials" I was surprised and saddened to see that quite a few of the people using them did not state that they'd had their dog evaluated, nor did they state they'd tried other options before resorting to the e-collar. (Not all trainers are behaviorists) They may have tried one or two things, but certainly didn't exhaust all other options.


I can't think of a bigger waste of time and money than bringing in a behaviorist. Some of you folks think that a behaviorist is some kind of god who can look into the mind of a dog and figure out exactly what's wrong and how to fix it. Heck, we can't even do that with our own species, much less another one. Bring in five of them and you'll get five different opinions. 



Jag said:


> You have ONE positive testimonial from someone with a shy, fear-biting dog.


You might want to take a look at the pages under the heading Success Stories. Both Roma, Roma and Simon were _"shy, fear biting dog."_ Simon was turned around by someone who learned my methods on the phone (it was before my website existed) IN THREE DAYS. (Click the links to read the stories). 



Jag said:


> I'm not against the use of an e-collar used correctly. However, I do have issue with a person who claims it will work for any dog


Here's that straw man argument again. I've NEVER said this. Please show us such a statement if you disagree. People keep saying this, yet NO ONE has ever been able to show us such a quotation. 



Jag said:


> and takes time to bash people who happen to disagree.


Pot - kettle - black AGAIN. 



Jag said:


> Even to go so far as to claim that trainers who disagree aren't good trainers and don't know what they're doing.


Pretty sure I've not said this. Pretty sure that I was specific in saying that you used one tool improperly. That is NOT the same thing that you're now attributing to me. But since you've made this claim, please show us where I've made the statement that you're now claiming I made, that you're (or anyone) is a bad trainer and don't know what you're doing. 



Jag said:


> I feel if you're going to do that, you at least should be willing to share your credentials including schools you attended.


Over the course of 30+ years of training dogs I've attended dozens of schools. Too many to bore members here with. Suffice it to say that I now TEACH seminars for LE, SAR workers and pet owners on such topics as the Ecollar, building search, scent theory, training theory and more, across the US, and in several foreign countries. 

Turnabout is fair play. I've shown you mine, please show us yours. 



Jag said:


> This way, you're able to be taken at least half seriously.. and it's more courtesy than what you've extended to myself and others.


Do a search for my name on just this forum and you'll find MANY people who have used my articles and trained their dogs. You're insinuating that I have little or no experience in training dogs. The truth is far from it. I'd bet that you have some impressive looking credentials, but little real world experience.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I think Lou would love to put an e-collar on us...don't agree with me?? ZAP!!


I’m always amused when those who want us to believe how kind and gentle they are to their dogs makes statements like this one.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

df1960 said:


> My sister has a pitbull : When Molly was still a pup around 8 months old, she had started growling at their ****zu, Molly was going for obedience training and when my sister mentionned the growling to the trainer he said this needs to be stopped immediately - so what does he recommend - of course an e-collar ($400) in his pocket - when she told me I begged her not to use it - but the trainer knows best right????
> 
> So on goes the e-collar and sure enough that evening the ****zu (Austin) passed near Molly - Molly growls, my sister corrects the dog with the e-collar and ALL **** BROKE LOOSE - Molly assumed it was the ****zu that was causing the pain around her neck so she ATTACKED Austin and my sister kept trying to get her off by using the e-collar and pulling ..... for the next two years the two dogs could not be in the same room together and poor Austin went to live in the basement - so two years ago Austin came to live with us.....he has no issues with my dogs. ...


*THANK YOU for making my point. The improper use of an Ecollar can lead to problems. * I've discussed this on my website here. Treating Dog Aggression 



> To anyone who understands the Ecollar, simply using it to "correct" aggression in this manner is a monstrous misuse of the Ecollar that can create an extremely dangerous situation. This isn't just theory. It's commonly known among Ecollar trainers.
> 
> If you press the button and hurt your dog while he's showing aggression towards another dog, several things can happen. One is that he'll learn that the other dog can hurt him from a good distance away. Your dog can learn to shut off the display of aggression without you ever affecting the aggression itself. That is, he'll stop the display, the barking, lunging, growling, lip curling, showing hair, showing teeth, and the accompanying body language that signals to the other dog and to you that he's becoming aggressive.
> 
> ...


The article on crittering can be found here. Game Chasing (Crittering)


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crackem said:


> Some people are good at training dogs, some are good at writing their thoughts on the internet.


Some are good at both. 



crackem said:


> I'm not here to debate ecollars or not, I've used them for a few things.
> 
> But it would be the last thing I reached for when dealing with a fearful and stressed dog. That's about all I have to say about that.


Given what you probably know about Ecollar, I'd say, that for you, that's a good choice. But given what I know about how to use the tool and how to teach it to others, I'd say that it's one of the best tools extant for working such dogs.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> I have to say, I am finding this thread very enlightening. Some may enjoy the bantering...for me, it makes me go out & seek more info. However, IMO – the bantering that has turned into attacks & nastiness really can be shelved. Just because one doesn’t “believe” in the use of ecollars is no reason to be nasty to one who’s been trained to use them correctly.


I've had similar conversations hundreds of times. Almost always, they go the same way people are polite at first until their ideas about Ecollars are challenged and then they turn nasty. They don't like to be told that what they believe about Ecollars or the way that they've been trained to used one is wrong, even when such comments are obviously based only on their comments about their poor results, as now. 

Those oppose to the Ecollar favor personal attacks because they have little to add after being told that they're wrong. They also frequently go to straw man arguments, which of course, are logically flawed. 



Olivers mama said:


> I know – I used to be 'That Person' that was down on all ecollars. I wanted to try all the PC training methods & doggie psychiatrists…but this bickering doesn’t help any of us “newbies”.


But you progressed from there. Some have not and are still stuck. 



Olivers mama said:


> IMO, you can hire all the behaviorists you want (& I use that term lightly) – hire 10 of them, you’ll get 10 different opinions. This isn’t a science, they’re opinions. Which we all have.


That's been my experience with them too OM and so I've come to completely distrust them. 



Olivers mama said:


> All the newer ways of ‘training’ simply did not work on Ziva.


Oh look ANOTHER failure of those methods. That's THREE in just this thread!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's not that you're "challenging people's beliefs" it's your way of going about it, Lou.



> Oh look ANOTHER failure of those methods. That's THREE in just this thread!


Actually, that's correct...and not surprising, but then again you're talking about dogs with basic training already and you're trying to get them elsewhere in training. 
But look through this section - other threads. Almost ALL the ones dealing with out-and-out aggression, dominance/punishment/even e-collars, YES, have been tried - and failed. 
Even the OP states he "pinned" his dog. 
If punishing aggression worked, these threads would not exist.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't run a website where I'm advocating people to use a certain method without laying eyes on a dog. Just looking at posts here, it's clear that most dog owners don't know the difference between fear and true aggression. I'd encourage anyone looking for a trainer to check out their qualifications. IMO, a trainer isn't a trainer unless they've got something to show for it (degree, certificate..something). Otherwise, it's simply an opinion based on experience or hearsay which should never take the place of a professional. Yes, I include my own opinions in this. A good lesson here on internet advice and websites.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jag;2552504[B said:


> [/B]]I don't run a website where I'm advocating people to use a certain method without laying eyes on a dog. Just looking at posts here, it's clear that most dog owners don't know the difference between fear and true aggression. I'd encourage anyone looking for a trainer to check out their qualifications. IMO, a trainer isn't a trainer unless they've got something to show for it (degree, certificate..something). Otherwise, it's simply an opinion based on experience or hearsay which should never take the place of a professional. Yes, I include my own opinions in this. A good lesson here on internet advice and websites.



Jag, just out of curiosity, have you actually read Lou's site? From the home page:

"This site is devoted to dog training. Primarily it's about using the Ecollar, but any methods are *open for discussion from clickers to Ecollars and anything in between*. There are "how-to" articles here that will teach you how to use an Ecollar to train your dog. There are general training articles to help you with common problems that occur with dogs. There's a forum to discuss questions that you have about how your training is going and to discuss problems that arise. There are places to display photos of your dog. The Forum is a place to discuss anything related to dogs or dog training."


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If two dogs show aggression toward each other, can both of them be acting from fear?


Reason i ask is that my dog (4.5yo male GSD) does not get along AT ALL with another older (about 6 mo older) male GSD in our social group of about 6-8 GSD owners.

They used to not be in the same area without reacting to each other. other guy would stare at my dog and BOOM - reactions on both sides. We had them together one time (with muzzles and a pro trainer) and walked a while on leash with the other owner and I. My dog wanted to go over to him but we gently discoveraged this. When we took them off leash - his dog stayed right in heel position ((No commands at all) almost behaind the other guy. My guy was all aver and would wander around the field and also go up to the other dog and tried to act dominant (I think!) by putting his paw on the other guys back. That triggered some aggression from the other dog and mine wanted very much to jump on him. We did interupt the fight naturally.

*BUT, my question is - was my guy acting out of fear? *

*Sure didn't look like it to me, but i will admit i am far from an expert on dog behavior.*

BTW by the end of the session we were able to get the two dogs to lay down next to each other before the session was over. Almost touching - altho the other dog was nervous a little as you could tell from his body language while mine was very relaxed and calm.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> Jag, just out of curiosity, have you actually read Lou's site? From the home page:
> 
> "This site is devoted to dog training. Primarily it's about using the Ecollar, but any methods are *open for discussion from clickers to Ecollars and anything in between*. There are "how-to" articles here that will teach you how to use an Ecollar to train your dog. There are general training articles to help you with common problems that occur with dogs. There's a forum to discuss questions that you have about how your training is going and to discuss problems that arise. There are places to display photos of your dog. The Forum is a place to discuss anything related to dogs or dog training."


 
An excellent site on dog training in general, not just the use of an e-collar!!!!!!!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> advocating people to use a certain method without laying eyes on a dog.


That's what I am getting out of this too...and this board is famous for chewing others out for giving any type training advice because why? _We're not there_! 
And that "e-collars are perfect for fearful dogs".


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh, come now. You yourself advocate methods without ever "laying eyes" on dogs on this board all the time.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree! We all do to an extent. 
But others are quick to jump on that!

I mean if someone comes on the board to ask something, they are soliciting advice and there's really no shortage of it. But serious training issues, should be dealt with in person, not over the 'net. _Especially_ a potential fear biters such as this.

In this situation particularly, I'd just advise "Mind Games" until a good trainer can be found. One that does not advise rolling and pinning your dog at the very least.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

LouCastle said:


> Some are good at both.
> 
> 
> 
> Given what you probably know about Ecollar, I'd say, that for you, that's a good choice. But given what I know about how to use the tool and how to teach it to others, I'd say that it's one of the best tools extant for working such dogs.


Yes, you win, I certainly have not spent near time and resources convincing people I know how to train a dog that you have.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm hoping that everyone who goes to the Net for 'advice' - no matter the issue - will take the info they're given as thoughts or suggestions. Not as tho they're written in stone.

That being said, there is never a shortage of opinions when it comes to a troublesome situation. By education, I was a Vet Tech for years & a nurse even longer. Doesn't make me an expert in anything. Just gives me my life-tainted opinions like everyone else. On these public forums, that's OK.

But I have a question - if you are against something, in this case - the ecollar - don't you also have the option of staying away from discussions about them? What started out as a man with some serious issues with his dog has turned into pages of sniping back & forth about something you can never agree about anyway. Makes no sense to me & has little positive effect for the original questions presented.

This is particularly irritating because my questions about our dog mimic the OP's situation. So yes - I was kind of hoping SOMEONE would give some decent direction for him, in the hopes that I could selfishly "steal" some of that info & apply to our own situation. 

Alas, that is not to be.

But I do have a question --- when your own GSD snaps or BITES you, what do you do? Initially, I mean - not after you take the time to psychoanalyze his behavior.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Olivers mama said:


> I'm hoping that everyone who goes to the Net for 'advice' - no matter the issue - will take the info they're given as thoughts or suggestions. Not as tho they're written in stone.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I think if more people looked at advice that way we would have less fights.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> Jag, just out of curiosity, have you actually read Lou's site? From the home page:
> 
> "This site is devoted to dog training. Primarily it's about using the Ecollar, but any methods are *open for discussion from clickers to Ecollars and anything in between*. There are "how-to" articles here that will teach you how to use an Ecollar to train your dog. There are general training articles to help you with common problems that occur with dogs. There's a forum to discuss questions that you have about how your training is going and to discuss problems that arise. There are places to display photos of your dog. The Forum is a place to discuss anything related to dogs or dog training."


I have. It also states that if you're going to debate the use of e-collars or are against the use of them (this isn't word for word, but close) to go somewhere else.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> I think if more people looked at advice that way we would have less fights.


True - but the fights ARE entertaining!  Not very helpful, but entertaining.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Jag said:


> I have. It also states that if you're going to debate the use of e-collars or are against the use of them (this isn't word for word, but close) to go somewhere else.


I wonder why. :eyeroll:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd like to point out that Lou made a false and derogatory blanket statement about clickers and treats on page ONE of this discussion. Lou alone made it about e-collars. He's got to be "right" obviously, and that's been plain over the past 18billion pages.



> if you are against something, in this case - the ecollar - don't you also have the option of staying away from discussions about them?


I'd also like to remind folks this is about a dog with fear issues, not an e-collar thread despite the fact Lou commandeered the thread quite nicely.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know. I haven't gone to Lou's site. It may be wonderful. His methods might work wonderfully. But some methods work on some people, and some have the opposite effect. 

I personally think that the success you have with any method of training is directly proportional to how much confidence you have in the method. I also think that methods of training are sometimes more about the temperament of the trainer than the dog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'd like to point out that Lou made a false and derogatory blanket statement about clickers and treats on page ONE of this discussion. Lou alone made it about e-collars. He's got to be "right" obviously, and that's been plain over the past 18billion pages.
> 
> 
> 
> *I'd also like to remind folks this is about a dog with fear issues, not an e-collar thread despite the fact Lou commandeered the thread quite nicely.*




Actually, if you read the title of the thread, it DOES appear to be about ecollars-- just not about bickering.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> True - but the fights ARE entertaining!  Not very helpful, but entertaining.


 Threads get into these arguments because each person has a "belief" about something. Doesn't matter how they got the belief. It could be accurate or not, true or not, factual or not, based in science or not but whatever they believe it.

So if you have a belief that e-collars are generally not good, you search for those who will support your belief and ignore or denigrate those who see them as useful tools. The reverse is also true.

I've seen things in health threads that make me cringe. Not because the person posting is necessarily posting bad info. but because they offer no proof and are not responsible for the consequences if they are wrong. Proof to them usually means offering up someone else's web site who basically is saying the same thing.

I've never used an e-collar but am considering it for my high drive, too smart for her own good, has selective hearing, almost a year old Zena.

I don't blame Lou Castle for not wanting to argue on his web site with people who will never want to use an e-collar. He teaches it's use and does seminars on it's use. If you (general you) don't like what he does then don't go there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> [/B]
> 
> Actually, if you read the title of the thread, it DOES appear to be about ecollars-- just not about bickering.


Yup. OP states that in his first sentence. "debate on shock collars"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> Ya know. I haven't gone to Lou's site. It may be wonderful. His methods might work wonderfully. But some methods work on some people, and some have the opposite effect.
> 
> *I personally think that the success you have with any method of training is directly proportional to how much confidence you have in the method. * I also think that methods of training are sometimes more about the temperament of the trainer than the dog.


I can think of a lot of things like this...primarily some of the "miracle cures" in the health care arena, too! 
Inability to admit failure may be related.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

"Fear issues" as relates to a dog's biting. You would not have found that phrase in the dog world years ago. We are trying to align dogs to humans nowadays, with all the mind-problems that go along with it. As a result, we're making our dogs nuts. And making a bunch of doggie-shrinks rich with their "ability to psychoanalyze" a dog - esPECially over the internet!

IMO - our dog does not snap at women (mainly, me) because she has "fear issues".  The day 1 of you can make her lie on a couch & explain the reason she bites is because she wasn't allowed to have her way when she was 6 months old with another human - & THAT'S why she bites...I'll listen - until then, I don't want to hear it. We never KNOW all the reasons dogs act as they do. All we KNOW is that some behaviors are acceptable in their current house, while others are not.

I want a training method to stop the behavior. I will not sit there & hold her paw, saying "There there now, I'm sorry you're so afraid that you feel the need to sink your big teeth into my hand / arm..."

Heck, at this point, I'd vote for the cattle prod if I thought it would work --- JUST KIDDING!:crazy:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I totally believe e-collars have their place in training with some dogs in some situations. I saw the benefits of it with my own eyes with my own dog. I have (in the past) taken advice that sounded good without actually knowing the background of the person giving it. I question anyone who is giving advice on anything that could effect me or any being in my home now. I'd just like to know that it's more than a hunch or a guess. That being said, personal experience is given its own weight in my mind. If you've got a story to go with what you're saying, it means more to me than not. 

I was a medical professional my entire career, so I require some sort of proof of things. (Not just outcomes, because there are many factors that go into an outcome) When the internet just started out, I tended to believe what people said because why would someone misrepresent themselves? Took awhile, but I figured out that just because someone isn't intentionally misrepresenting themselves still doesn't mean it's 100% what it appears to be. 

Every training tool has the potential to be misused or abused. IMO, any tool that's going to be used for negative reinforcement or punishment or correction or whatever you want to call it needs to be taught by a professional that knows what they're doing after a dog has been evaluated by someone that knows what they're doing. I don't believe they should be selling e-collars in pet stores or over the internet. That's just my personal belief. I didn't used to feel that way, but I'm always open to changing my beliefs. I'm getting ready to train in a way I never have before with this new pup. It's not easy to let go of "the way I've always done it". However, if you always have done it one way and others have had success doing things another way so you check and sure enough... that way just may be better... then I believe we owe it to those beings in our care to check it out. 

I'm sure that Lou has had success in training police dogs. IMO, *most* GSD's out there aren't anywhere near police dog material. Not to say that only police dog material GSD's can be trained with an e-collar, just that it's comparing apples to oranges. Personally, I refused to even put a pinch on a dog without being trained by a professional on its use. That's my experience, though. My dad was a trainer, (not professionally, though.. just his own for show) and I now find the methods he used outdated and unreliable. My point is that if anyone gets anything out of all of this, it's to use your own head, your own judgement and go with what feels right in your gut. Think about what you do before you do it, and check out those that you're willing to take advice from. Just because someone's putting info. out there doesn't mean it's the right info. for you and your dog. There are LOTS of trainers out there. Different styles, beliefs, backgrounds and baggage. Choose carefully, and don't be afraid to switch. Positive results with a method you're comfortable with mean you've got the right one for you and your dog.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> "Fear issues" as relates to a dog's biting. You would not have found that phrase in the dog world years ago. We are trying to align dogs to humans nowadays, with all the mind-problems that go along with it. As a result, we're making our dogs nuts. And making a bunch of doggie-shrinks rich with their "ability to psychoanalyze" a dog - esPECially over the internet!
> 
> IMO - our dog does not snap at women (mainly, me) because she has "fear issues". The day 1 of you can make her lie on a couch & explain the reason she bites is because she wasn't allowed to have her way when she was 6 months old with another human - & THAT'S why she bites...I'll listen - until then, I don't want to hear it. We never KNOW all the reasons dogs act as they do. All we KNOW is that some behaviors are acceptable in their current house, while others are not.
> 
> ...


I don't know how many "years ago" you're talking about.. are you saying that there isn't such a thing as "fear biting" or "fear aggression" in dogs? There's a difference between a "doggie shrink" and a behavioralist. Denying that something exists isn't the same as it not existing. There are more unstable dogs out there now than ever before. This is supported by just looking at posts here... the number of trainers that deal with "behavioral issues"... because many moon ago an unstable dog was just put down. Now there are litters and litters of them being bred by people who don't understand the first thing about dogs, dog behavior, or the dangers of breeding unsound animals. Not to mention pups being sold off at 6 weeks or earlier. Check out the breeders on CL sometime. Maybe ignorance is bliss.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Jag - that's not what I'm saying at all. Read my words, don't interpret. I'm sure many dogs were put down for behavorial issues - guess what, they still are. "Maybe ignornace is bliss". Maybe it is - so is self-inflating one's importance.

All I'm saying is that the behavior of dogs has changed with human acts. I think humans are more off their rockers nowadays, & so are dogs. And we (humans) have made the dogs this way.

So, answer my question --- in your "experience" & with all your behavioral "knowledge" - how do you handle a dog that bites you?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> I think humans are more off their rockers nowadays,


Ain't THAT the truth!!! :crazy:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> "Fear issues" as relates to a dog's biting. You would not have found that phrase in the dog world years ago. We are trying to align dogs to humans nowadays, with all the mind-problems that go along with it. As a result, we're making our dogs nuts. And making a bunch of doggie-shrinks rich with their "ability to psychoanalyze" a dog - esPECially over the internet!
> 
> IMO - our dog does not snap at women (mainly, me) because she has "fear issues". The day 1 of you can make her lie on a couch & explain the reason she bites is because she wasn't allowed to have her way when she was 6 months old with another human - & THAT'S why she bites...I'll listen - until then, I don't want to hear it. We never KNOW all the reasons dogs act as they do. All we KNOW is that some behaviors are acceptable in their current house, while others are not.
> 
> ...


Made me laugh out loud. 

Obviously you haven't built the right bond with her. 
Nothing a lot of money and the right the right therapist couldn't help you out with.
Have you tried a massage therapist yet?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> Jag - that's not what I'm saying at all. Read my words, don't interpret. I'm sure many dogs were put down for behavorial issues - guess what, they still are. "Maybe ignornace is bliss". Maybe it is - so is self-inflating one's importance.
> 
> All I'm saying is that the behavior of dogs has changed with human acts. I think humans are more off their rockers nowadays, & so are dogs. And we (humans) have made the dogs this way.
> 
> So, answer my question --- in your "experience" & with all your behavioral "knowledge" - how do you handle a dog that bites you?


How do you read something and *not* interpret? Why are you being snarky because I asked for clarification on something you said? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume (which I hate to do) that due to your "ego" comment you're assuming I was speaking of you being ignorant. Interpret what you read. It followed a statement about breeders on CL. So you think there's a link between more people being off their rockers and dogs having behavioral issues? How would that spread from one species to another? Especially with mental health being a combination of genetics and environment? I don't understand how the two could be related. Yes, I do agree that humans made dogs more unstable... with poor breeding practices and poor understanding of the breed they're responsible for. I'm NOT a trainer, nor am I a behaviorist. Never claimed to be either. There's not enough info. in that question to even form an opinion on what I'd do if it were my dog in my home. Quick and dirty answer? Go to an experienced trainer/behaviorist. Of course, if the dog and person in question are both unstable because it's catching there's always the option of putting both down.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks Jag - I rest my case!:laugh::laugh:

Jack's dad - we're still working on the bonding AND the paying attention. Massage therapist? I don't know if that was a joke or not, but we HAVE taken her to a chiro we know that massages pets, so don't laugh! And BTW - she's fine with him. But she doesn't like his wife...just another female to tick her off, I guess. hahahahaha Something deeply imbedded in her from the Dark Ages...is there a Dr. K9 Freud available?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> Jag - that's not what I'm saying at all. Read my words, don't interpret. I'm sure many dogs were put down for behavorial issues - guess what, they still are. "Maybe ignornace is bliss". Maybe it is - so is self-inflating one's importance.
> 
> All I'm saying is that the behavior of dogs has changed with human acts. I think humans are more off their rockers nowadays, & so are dogs. And we (humans) have made the dogs this way.
> 
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> Jack's dad - we're still working on the bonding AND the paying attention. Massage therapist? I don't know if that was a joke or not, but we HAVE taken her to a chiro we know that massages pets, so don't laugh! And BTW - she's fine with him. But she doesn't like his wife...just another female to tick her off, I guess. hahahahaha Something deeply imbedded in her from the Dark Ages...is there a Dr. K9 Freud available?


Have you tried baking a cake and having a "girl's sit down chat"? I find that most effective.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> Thanks Jag - I rest my case!:laugh::laugh:
> 
> Jack's dad - we're still working on the bonding AND the paying attention. Massage therapist? I don't know if that was a joke or not, but we HAVE taken her to a chiro we know that massages pets, so don't laugh! And BTW - she's fine with him. But she doesn't like his wife...just another female to tick her off, I guess. hahahahaha Something deeply imbedded in her from the Dark Ages...is there a Dr. K9 Freud available?


Was indeed a joke.

Have you tried essential oils or a candlelight dinner?

To the OP if your dog is genetically fearful it won't go away but you can take steps to manage it. 

if it's environmental then training, mental stimulation etc.. will probably help a lot.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> You're welcome to disagree. I disagree with your statement as well. "Getting [something] right and not being punished" does not give a dog confidence. Overcoming adversity does in both animals and humans. In the case that I cited, Roma held her sit in the face of things that used to scare her into fight or flight. She learned that running away or biting wasn't necessary and that merely by holding her position (the overcoming adversity that I mentioned) worked.


The truth lies in the middle. It's BALANCE that is important.

If anyone tells me that their way is the only way than they discredit themselves on the spot. There is no such thing as the "only" way. 

It's not the method that has to be pushed onto the dog, it's the dog that will tell you which method will work for him/her.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> Thanks Jag - I rest my case!:laugh::laugh:
> 
> Jack's dad - we're still working on the bonding AND the paying attention. Massage therapist? I don't know if that was a joke or not, but we HAVE taken her to a chiro we know that massages pets, so don't laugh! And BTW - she's fine with him. But she doesn't like his wife...just another female to tick her off, I guess. hahahahaha Something deeply imbedded in her from the Dark Ages...is there a Dr. K9 Freud available?


What *is* your case? You take your dog to a doggie chiro but you think that behavioralists are hooey? I'm really trying to understand your thinking but I'm not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> The truth lies in the middle. It's BALANCE that is important.
> 
> If anyone tells me that their way is the only way than they discredit themselves on the spot. There is no such thing as the "only" way.
> 
> It's not the method that has to be pushed onto the dog, it's the dog that will tell you which method will work for him/her.



I think that it's a dog/human team that needs a approach or method. Mrs. K could have success with one of my dogs using a method that would not work for me and that dog. This is where a good behavorist or trainer comes in. They need to evaluate the dog AND the owner and find a method that works for the team. 

What works for me with Dolly, might not work for me with Gretta, because they are different dogs. But someone cannot take a dog, and write a prescription of how to manage/train/rehabilitate the dog without taking into consideration the owner of the dog.

So, Mrs.K or Lou could take a dog and train it with totally different methods and get good results with them, where neither might have worked for me. Lou may be an awesome trainer and have success with his e-collars, but if he tries to use an e-collar with someone who simply does not want to do that to their dog, then he is not helping that dog/handler team get where they need to be. If training is one-dimensional, if you think there is one tool/method that works for a situation, then dog-trainer is probably not the career you should be in, even if you are good at it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> The truth lies in the middle. It's BALANCE that is important.
> 
> If anyone tells me that their way is the only way than they discredit themselves on the spot. There is no such thing as the "only" way.
> 
> *It's not the method that has to be pushed onto the dog, it's the dog that will tell you which method will work for him/her.*




This is an excellent point.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Candlelight dinners - only tried once when the lights went out - she enjoyed it. Girls' sit down chat - we did that; Ziva, me & the tortie cat. The cat came out on top! 

*I* have no "case" Jag - am pushing the exact buttons to elicit the exact response I expected. And BTW - the chiro is not specific to dogs. Just so happens, he treats humans - he's my chiro. Started treating my old cat a few years ago & agreed to check out the dog. Chiro is a physical science, not voodoo shrinkism.

Still haven't answered my - or OP's - question about the biting.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, a dog trainer should have many different tools in their tool box. If all they have is one method and they claim that it is the only way, than I'd run away as far away as possible. 

One thing I like about trainers is when they have many many different methods, tools and ways to train a dog. There are trainers that work a dog and can switch from one method to another because they have that expertise and tools in their box and that is the kind of trainer I like to spend my money on.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> *I* have no "case" Jag - am pushing the exact buttons to elicit the exact response I expected. And BTW - the chiro is not specific to dogs. Just so happens, he treats humans - he's my chiro. Started treating my old cat a few years ago & agreed to check out the dog. Chiro is a physical science, not voodoo shrinkism.
> 
> Still haven't answered my - or OP's - question about the biting.


Why would you 'push buttons'? What is the point in that? You're just bored and want to mess with people? There's a pathology to that, you know. Chiro is a physical science to a point. Unless an animal has some sort of physical problem, I fail to see the point. Of course, I'm open to learning about it and will look it up. The Chiro I've seen in the past I'm sure doesn't treat animals. I'm not sure why you think a behavioralist is a 'voodoo shrink'. I did answer your question. I also explained my answer. My question to you about that is why you'd think I was either a trainer or a behavioralist? I have no website, I haven't stated any such thing... using the term in its loosest sense, every person that has a dog is a trainer. I think there's a disclaimer that's needs to be somewhere, though, stating that unless someone states they're a certified trainer it's just advice to be taken with caution. I had given some time and thought to try to understand your position. Thank you for letting me know you're just playing games. I truly don't have time to communicate in that way.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, a dog trainer should have many different tools in their tool box. If all they have is one method and they claim that it is the only way, than I'd run away as far away as possible.
> 
> One thing I like about trainers is when they have many many different methods, tools and ways to train a dog. There are trainers that work a dog and can switch from one method to another because they have that expertise and tools in their box and that is the kind of trainer I like to spend my money on.


I agree with this. Have you found most trainers to be honest about their methods if you ask them? I need to start making calls, and most websites for trainers don't outline their methods at all.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Jag said:


> 1. There's a pathology to that, you know. 2. Chiro is a physical science to a point. Unless an animal has some sort of physical problem, I fail to see the point. Of course, I'm open to learning about it and will look it up. 3. The Chiro I've seen in the past I'm sure doesn't treat animals...4. Thank you for letting me know you're just playing games. I truly don't have time to communicate in that way.


1. Truly off-topic.
2. Chiropractics is a science whereby people are trained, educated & certified to practice. Many people see a chiro when their only complaint are messed-up nerves & tension. Massage helps people - why not pets? I thought it was worth a shot. No harm, No foul.
3. Most chiros that work on humans won't touch an animal, that's true. We're lucky - ours does. He even has a client who brings her horse to backside of the parking lot - the horse gets neck adjustments. Does it work? Who knows? But it doesn't hurt. And it's not some non-educated or non-certified individual doing psychoanalysis on an animal.
4. Problem is - I'm NOT playing games. We've had some serious issues with our dog - many similar to Eli. Have tried most of the re-training methods out there. Was trying to get an answer from "those in the know", before this turned into an ecollar / Lou - bashing thread.

If all other methods have failed, but the ecollar - in experienced hands (not mine) - is working for a couple of tremendously bad behaviors, how & why is that bad?

Special Note --- if you choose to wipe your hands of a person because you don't like the questions they ask, that's wrong, IMO, on a forum like this. Many of us come here to learn. Many, in turn, like to share their knowledge & teach. Others like to put people down when their opinions don't match. In my case, I won't give up until I find the answers to making this Big Girl GSD feel good about where she's at. We've spared no money, no time, no Trial-and-Error. She has made tremendous advances & I refuse to give up on her. Problem is, I have to continue fighting this cancer at the same time. So I've already told myself I have to hang around long enough to ensure her happiness. (Without the biting.)


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Wiping your hands of someone because you don't like the questions they ask isn't the case. I asked you what your case was when you said "I rest my case". Your response was you didn't have one, that you were pushing buttons to get a response you knew you'd get. This, to me anyway, is playing games. It's not asking a question wanting an honest response. *This* is what I refuse to participate in. That said, I'd really appreciate it if you could be clear in your communications. It's hard to get the "tone" of a person on the internet, and since my strokes I find I can misunderstand. If I ask for clarification, it's obviously taken wrong sometimes. Easier all around if people are straightforward to avoid the misunderstanding mess to begin with. For instance, I still don't understand the above, and I've re-read it several times. If I am not being genuine in what I write, I will try to make that clear with a smiley or something else that's obvious. Other than that, I ask questions I genuinely want the answers to, and try not to assume anything. What you 'see' is what you get. 

I've stated multiple times on this very thread that I'm not against e-collars. I had a dog (my first GSD) which went to a licensed trainer/behavioralist who was successfully corrected with one. However, he wasn't a fearful dog. He wasn't a sharp/shy dog. He was a confident dog who'd acquired bad behaviors due to environment and my training mistakes also. I don't think anyone could answer the question "What do you do with a dog who bites you?" It's not detailed. There's not enough information. Even with more information, most likely the answer would still be "go to a good trainer/behavioralist". Unless it's a clear cut case (which most aren't) this is the only way to get the best answer, IMO. I don't know how to make it any clearer that I'm not "against e-collars". I've stated it, and whether or not a reader believes it is up to them. I have certain standards when it comes to trainers. I don't expect everyone else to have those same standards. I don't believe that GSD's are all the same, and I don't believe they're the same as other breeds of dogs. I don't even know the background of your dog. (I will look it up after this weekend, though. I won't have internet access probably the entire weekend) 

That said, I'm sorry that you're dealing with this and cancer. One or the other would be incredibly difficult. Being chronically ill is no picnic, and not for the faint of heart. My own clock is ticking, so I do understand your position. I would like to know more about the doggie chiro. If you'd be kind enough to start a thread about that (why you go, what they do, what the results are) that would be great. I haven't heard much about that at all. I truly do hope you get to the bottom of the behaviors and get some relief. I don't remember if you're already going to a trainer, but if that's not helping then (if I were in your shoes) I'd go to a different one.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Jag - my apologies. Sometimes I 'skim', because it's faster. But, in doing so, I obviously miss out on some of the more important comments.

And I apologize to all if I've sounded like a turd. We adopted this dog 2 years ago from a crapola GSD Rescue. Who lied about her. However, once we had her, we knew 2 things: 1. If we give the dog back, she'd be PTS, too hard to adopt. 2. We recognized & loved the basic personality. We took the wrong advice (we didn't know - we were referred to So&So) & had 2 trainers who made her worse, when it came to listening to hubby & I. Not realizing her angst at the time with women, 1 trainer was a woman whom we caught man-handling her when we just showed up 1 day. (Took Ziva from a stand to a down with a prong collar on, yanking her head back in the process. We took the dog home right then. If hubby hadn't been there, I would've decked this woman - & she was highly reccomended & has all kinds of certs.) She - along with most people - kept telling us to PTS. Wouldn't do it - like Eli, we simply saw too much good in her. 

Eventually, her basic obedience improved, using 'conventional' training (choke collar & leash) + treats. A light switch went on & she decided she'd "only" work for treats & to Heck with verbal/hand commands. That's when the biting accelerated. I swear, if she knew how to lift up her paw & flip us off, that's what she would've done. Tell her to down - she'd yawn & stare @ you. Follow that with a "NOW" - & she downs without a problem, wagging that big ol' tail. She reminded me of a toddler just pushing the buttons.

Medical tests were all negative for ANYthing that could be physically wrong with her. Vet said she was a brat. (Well, she was!) A friend offered to try something different with her. In HIS experienced hands, he used an ecollar, working on Recall first. She has made an amazing turn-around. 

Are we there yet? Not by a long shot. But her biting has greatly reduced. NILIF has been a God-send. And she'll plop down on the floor next to me - altho she wants 1/2 the pillow - to watch TV. She's a happy dog whose favorite treats now are bits of MilkBone mixed with water in ice-cube trays. (Because they melt, she has to act fast to get one!) I just want what's best for her. And I believe that's what's best for her is with us - + the 4 cats.

And Jag - thank you for your kind words...cancer is daunting, but I'm stubborn!  Besides, Ziva was our present to us for having beat it the first time, so we can do it again!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm so sorry you've had so much trouble! I have to go... but I will try to get access this weekend. If not, I'll get back with you on Sunday evening! Have a good weekend! I really hope you can beat this again. You have the right attitude!!  Sometimes the best dogs are diamonds in the rough...


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I mean if someone comes on the board to ask something, they are soliciting advice and there's really no shortage of it. *But serious training issues, should be dealt with in person, not over the 'net. Especially a potential fear biters such as this.*


So that's why you suggested one of your adopters come to this board for training advice on a dog who was biting guests out of fear......now I get it 
And when she is told a few truths you both throw your toys out of the cot and she leaves.....geeze......


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am closing this for now. A little too tired to try to figure this out, but I am going to try to separate out the posts by and about the OP and his dog and leave the rest behind. I couldn't believe he came back!


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