# Wanting to learn more...



## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

Hello! I've been visiting these forums for months now, trying to understand all that I can about the GSD. My husband and I have been trying to decide on a breed for years, and finally we have come to an agreement! Phew, step one is finally down. So, now that we have a breed, it's time to start looking for breeders. 

A bit about my family and I. I have a 7 month old daughter (stay at home mom) and two spayed female rescue mutts. One is 12 and the other is 3. Long story short, I used to show Belgian Tervurens in conformation (AKC). I had two bitches, one ended up with juvenile cataracts and we had her spayed. The other I needed a major to finish, and loved her very much! She had issues that I didn't feel comfortable with. My goal was to eventually have my own breeding program and I just didn't feel right breeding her....she had killed a litter of kittens we had, broke a puppy's neck out of food aggression, and bitten my husbands little sister twice. I was also in the middle of moving across the country and all of these things combined forced me to talk to the breeder about giving the girls back to her. I don't like to talk about it, I wish things could have been different, but that is the short story.

It has been 4 years and I feel like I'm ready to get out there again. But I don't have any interest in returning to the petty politics of conformation. Especially not with a GSD. I am interested in obedience, schutzhund, and agility. I showed in 4-H until I was 18 (I'm now 22) and worked with Lori Nickerson and loved her dogs, she always did well with them in OB and they were a lot of fun to watch. I plan on working with her and taking classes with her to achieve a UDX. I realize this is a lot of work! But my goal is to work with people in my community on training their dogs and I would like to have a dog to represent my training abilities. I think a GSD is perfect because of their versatility. I have never competed in Schutzhund but would love to title the dog at least to SchH1. I am looking for a breeder that can understand that although I am not an expert in this area I am very willing to learn and am excited to learn. My husband is a police officer and is working towards becoming a K9 officer, so we often go to the police dog trainings and it is really great to watch. I also like the idea of having a protection dog because I am home with my daughter all the time without my husband. 

I would like a dog that can achieve a SchH1 but I am a little concerned about the amount of drive the dog has. I am not looking for an anxious/super drivey dog. The dog definitely needs to be able to chill in the house with my daughter and I and not go crazy. I have met many Malinois, Tervs and GSD's like this and it is something I really don't want BUT I need something able to attain a UDX as well...what are your thoughts on this? We are able to provide lots of exercise, we have a park 30 seconds away from the house with a canal for swimming. During the summer we are always camping, hiking, biking, etc. This area (Central Oregon) is perfect for that type of thing. I also intend on spending many hours a week on training.

I also prefer a black dog. I understand good breeders breed for health and temp first and foremost, but I am partial to the black dogs. I am also looking for a female, and like the Czech lines (definitely not anything American). 

I could go on and on and would like to keep writing but I have a rambunctious baby to attend to, so I'll have to cut it short. Hopefully this is enough information to start talking to you guys, I know you know your stuff and it will be interesting to learn more from you. Any questions just ask  

Julie


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

jewels91232 said:


> I would like a dog that can achieve a SchH1 but I am a little concerned about the amount of drive the dog has. I am not looking for an anxious/super drivey dog. The dog definitely needs to be able to chill in the house with my daughter and I and not go crazy. I have met many Malinois, Tervs and GSD's like this and it is something I really don't want BUT I need something able to attain a UDX as well...what are your thoughts on this? We are able to provide lots of exercise, we have a park 30 seconds away from the house with a canal for swimming. During the summer we are always camping, hiking, biking, etc. This area (Central Oregon) is perfect for that type of thing. I also intend on spending many hours a week on training.



To me this is not really a question of drive, but more a question of temperament, nerve, and energy. A more moderate energy dog with solid nerves can still have plenty of drive...they're just not reactive and bouncing off the walls with it. I would pick a middle of the road workingline male. To me these are almost always the best dogs for beginners.


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

I wanted to add also that it is important to us to select a breeder that is easy to communicate with and is kind. I consider this a very serious decision and hope to find a breeder that will celebrate with me on the dogs achievements and help me get through the hard times. I'd love to have a breeder that can help me grow as a trainer and eventually, years down the road, help me to begin a journey into having my own breeding program. I think of this as the very beginning of a long lasting relationship.


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

JKlatsky-Thank you for your reply. Yes, that sounds absolutely correct. I'd need a moderate energy dog with solid nerves. No bouncing off the walls but still able to compete would be fantastic. I must say that although I would be just starting out in Schutzhund, I don't really see myself as a "beginner" in training, and I believe I would pick it up very quickly with the right person guiding me. I'm going to ask Lori if she knows anyone that can help me with this. Also, I am not really interested in a male. I am sure it is possible to find this type of temperament in a female, no?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

for your area, I like vom banach and /or schraderhaus)

They both have websites, there are a few here with vom banach dogs, and a couple schraderhaus ones as well.

Good luck in your search..The girl in my avatar is slovak/czech/ddr,,I don't do schutzhund with her, but am working obed/some agility, not sure she really likes it,,tracking, she loves that,,and enjoying life with her


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

Jakoda-Thank you so much! I will definitely check them out. I never really thought of tracking as an option, that sounds like a lot of fun! Do you enjoy it? Your girl is beautiful.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jewels91232 said:


> Jakoda-Thank you so much! I will definitely check them out. I never really thought of tracking as an option, that sounds like a lot of fun! Do you enjoy it? Your girl is beautiful.


Do you realize that tracking is a part of Sch.?


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## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

jewels91232 said:


> Jakoda-Thank you so much! I will definitely check them out. I never really thought of tracking as an option, that sounds like a lot of fun! Do you enjoy it? Your girl is beautiful.


Tracking is one of the parts of Schutzhund. If you were on this side of the country I would suggest my breeder as they just had a litter and they are ready to start going to homes and all of them except for 2 are pure black.


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, I realize that tracking is a phase of Schutzhund codmaster. I thought Jakoda did only tracking (like, to obtain tracking titles such as TD, TDX, VST etc) and I've never thought of trying that with a GSD...I guess that's where my mind wandered to when Jakoda said tracking. I suppose they meant the tracking phase of Sch. 

R3CON-Thanks for your reply! I am willing to have a puppy shipped if I find the right breeder, but we won't be ready for the new addition until next summer. This gives me plenty of time to find the right match.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

jewels your right, that's what I'm aiming for ,,tracking tests,,not schutzhund tracking. I am not as dedicated as a person should be to do schutzhund

and yes, she loves tracking, her dad is a SAR dog, and mom is narcotics certified so she has some 'noses' behind her Her mom is at schraderhaus now and dad is owned, trained, titled and loved here > Home - Kleinen Hain German Shepherds who is also a member of this board. She's alot of fun


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Beginning Schutzhund is like a whole different world...  The way we raise our puppies, teach obedience, and address manners differs fairly significantly from the way that most people (and this includes AKC performance venues) do. The patterns are much longer and usually require more concentration and commitment from the dog...so you start from the beginning building that. Not to say that some AKC folks don't work in the same way...They Do! But I think if you look at AKC venue performances as a whole, and then look at SchH performaces as a whole I think you will see a pretty different picture and dogs are not *always* successful in crossing over. SchH dogs get hammered for forging and impedeing their handler in AKC venues, AKC dogs are crticized for being flat and unfocused in SchH. A lot depends on the skill of the trainer and understanding what exactly will make your dog successful in either venue. 

I would strongly suggest that you keep reading up on SchH, as there's a lot of good information here and I would also try and find the location where you would train and start to visit to see if it's really something you'd be interested in. 

I think there are more factors involved when choosing a potential SchH puppy (even a dog for a beginner and not a high level competitor) than a regular performance puppy. For example, genetic grip. Consider 2 puppies of comparable temperament and drive, both good choices for someone who wants to DO something. However one puppy naturally tries to carry things in the very back of the mouth and the other puppy tends to hold things in more of a 3/4 grip. Both dogs can comepte in performance venues and excell, however, If you want to do SchH, it is very helpful for your puppy to have a naturally full hard grip. So if I was a breeder and I had 2 puppy buyers...one who was definitely interested in SchH and one who was maybe sort of interested in SchH but also in agility or obedience...I would make sure the puppy with the good grip would go to the home more likely to do SchH but that puppy would be more successful in that venue than the other. 

In regards to the Male vs. Female. This is just in my experience, and I'm sure someone has a dog that proves the exception, however males to me have always seemed easier than females. When I think on all the females I have seen/known in SchH, and this is across breedlines...Czech, West German, DDR, Showline....most of the ones that are successful are much busier than their male counterparts. They seem to have more energy, and be a little more difficult to handle. I've heard it said because they're a little smarter or just because they're bitches. They seem to be less forgiving of handler error, and don't always bounce back the way the males do. Females tend to shine in obedience, but not be as strong in the guardwork as the males. They also tend to be a little sharper, which can be difficult if you're not used to that. Although maybe you are? I think the females are a little more Belgian like. 

Can you find a female like you want? Of course you can. It takes more digging though and you should have a very clear picture of what you want. There is a reason that when you look at most of the competitions....you see more males than females. And it's not because females can't work...but they're generally harder for the average handler. Again, I would go to a SchH club and see the different dogs there and get a feel for what a workingline female is like. If you can find one that you like you can inquire about the breeding and go from there.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

i agree with the above regarding the 'sexes', I see this with my own dog(s). 

Even tho again, I have not done schutzhund, doing other things, with my own dogs, my male dogs were easy trainers, more biddable very velcroey.

My females (I've only had 2 female gsds),,they did/do have way more energy, not necessarily harder to handle, but definately different, I think they matured faster than my males, more 'daring' , where the males tended to think about it before going for it, and yes I've found my females to be sharper than my males, and have higher defense drives, which also has been a learning experience.. 

And J's comment the girls being more belgian like, she hit the nail on the head with BOTH of my females,,I've had alot of people comment that both the girlz are much more malinois like in temperament than gsd ...

ok done rambling)


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

You guys thank you so much for all of the knowledge. This is exactly why I wanted to post. You have given me A LOT to think about. 

I am worried now that my expectations of being able to title my GSD in Sch AND AKC events may be too high...now I know why I don't see too many GSDs with both Sch and AKC titles. I definitely understand what you mean, it sounds difficult to teach the dog to decipher which discipline you're doing (for example in OB) when there are small differences that make a big impact with the judges...hmmm. I am feeling a bit intimidated and maybe I should stick to what I know, which is AKC stuff. But I am bummed because Sch does sound challenging and NEW for me, which intrigues me. I will have to continue researching this more before coming to a decision. 

As far as the sexes, thanks again for the info. I actually do not prefer the Belgian temperament, and it is interesting that you guys feel that the females have this temperament (I know there are exceptions). Someone once told me at a dog show that GSD females protect the people and males protect the property...not to say that a male won't protect his people but it was just a general statement. What do you guys think about that? 

One big reason for wanting a female is that I really can't stand a male dog that marks. And I've never met one intact male that doesn't. It's just one of those things I don't like, and I've never ever had male dogs because of it. Another reason is that I would like to start a foundation for a breeding program much later down the road, and I'd rather have females and raise my own puppies rather that stud a male out to someone elses bitch. (I realize there should be a plan in place for bettering the breed if you intend on having puppies...and I intend on learning more about what I personally would like to strive for.)

All of this being said, it is still something I need to really really think about, especially with the comments of most females being busy and intense. I believe I can handle it. I like to think I have a lot of patience  and considering I'd like to get to a UDX I think a female would preform well...

Maybe I just need to get a male and female, show the male in Sch and female in OB. Hahaha just kidding.

Thanks again, I always have more to say but am always interrupted by my little one.


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

By the way JKLatsky-Very interesting reading you post about puppies and evaluating their bite. Do most reputable GSD performance breeders look for this? Is it something that I can ask them about if I am inquiring on a puppy? For example, if they have a puppy they think will suit me, should I be asking how the puppy naturally likes to carry things...?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jewels91232 said:


> .............
> I am worried now that my expectations of being able to title my GSD in Sch AND AKC events may be too high...now I know why I don't see too many GSDs with both Sch and AKC titles. I definitely understand what you mean, it sounds difficult to teach the dog to decipher which discipline you're doing (for example in OB) when there are small differences that make a big impact with the judges...hmmm. ............................


One thing to keep in mind with Sch and AKC obedience - the dogs that I have known to compete in both (including my own), we simply used different commands. In my case English for the AKC stuff and german for the Sch ring. The dogs didn't seem to have much difficulty in keeping track of what they were doing.

RE male versus female = marking versus 2x year heat cycle.


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## jewels91232 (Jun 22, 2010)

Codmaster-Well, it looks like I'm going to have to learn German on top of all this research. Phew, this is getting more and more difficult every day! Hehe  I totally see what you're saying and it definitely makes sense. It's nice to hear from someone who HAS been able to do both. I have spoken to other people that say they also use a different leash/collar when going from Sch to OB. I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make but I'm sure the combo of a different language plus different equipment would help the dog make the switch. 

I completely understand that many people would much rather deal with a marking male than a bitch in season, but I am one of those that prefers the heat cycles. Wearing a diaper for a month twice a year VS peeing a million times on my car tires, fence, and maybe my daughters head...I'll take the heat cycles


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are many SchH and AKC OB titled GSD out there. 

ROFL!! You sound like me when it comes to males. I have titled 3 females in SchH and 2 in obedience. I also titled one male in obedience and am now working my first male in SchH (I have handled a few others, but this is the first I am serious about). It is interesting comparing the male with his sister. They are both 15 months. The female is maturing much faster and her attention span is better. The male has the attention span of a gnat. The female is more independent, but I think this is just her and I would not say it is typical of the females I have worked in the past nor their mother. I have found my females to be quite forgiving and resilient. The biggest difference between males and females is that females think too much. Most people don't like the surprises. Also, most don't like dealing with the heat cycles since these can interfere with trialing. Females can be affected by hormones, but then, so can males. 

Females can be just as strong, have just as much fight and power and just as much aggression as a male. They just tend to be smaller. If you want a female pup with the potential to compete in both SchH and AKC plus be a sound active companion than find a dam that is all these things.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I've seen lots of female GSDs and the last thing I thought about them was that they reminded me of Belgium anything. That's a bloodline thing if you ask me and I would say a GSD that behaves that way should be the exception.
I have seen and owned females that were very easy to train and were like males in protection. They don't have the size of a male but they were not soft nor were they difficult to handle. Again, it is bloodlines more than gender IMO and experience.
I am sure there are females like what was described but if I saw one like that, I probably don't remember it because I would have lost interest immediately. I am not trying to be insulting to anyone's experience or their dogs but I just have not seen too much of that over the years. Mostly the females I have titled were VERY willing and very easy to train. 
Probably more of the "Belgium" type nowadays but it is not correct GSD temperament...period.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think this breed in general, has a problem doing cross training for anything

I definately think it depends on the individual dog, but I have seen many gsd's doing ALOT of different venues without a problem. They seem to be able to distinguish just what your doing at the time.

I like to try different things and then whatever the dog enjoys and does well at is what I try to go for. Right now Masi, doesn't seem that "into" agility, but likes to do obedience and tracking, so that's what I'll push for


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as gender goes, if you want a female get a female.  You can certainly find a female who will do just fine in SchH, and there are many out there who can out do most males. Yes, working females is somewhat different than working males, mainly because they are more aware and think more, but for the most part differences come down to bloodlines and individual dogs, not their gonads. And if you like girls better in general, get a girl, no matter how many folks tell you "boys do better in SchH". There are a lot of reasons more males than females compete in SchH, particularly at the high levels, but for the most part those reasons don't have much to do with the ability of the dogs.

As to doing SchH and AKC type obedience, there is certainly nothing from stopping you from doing both. A lot of SchH people do, though they aren't the majority. The biggest issue is *time*. Remember with its 3 phases rolled into one, SchH requires training a dog in 3 very different things at one time. It takes a lot of time and effort to accomplish that, make progress in all 3 and then balance it so it all comes together at the same time. Admitedly a lot of SchH folk have no interest in other organizations, but even those who do may find it hard to find the time to do so. Though there are some who do. But there is nothing about the training or trial requirements of the different venues that would prevent you from doing both. They are certainly not mutually exclusive.

There are some differences, but most are minor. SchH heeling requires focus, whereas AKC does not. Though it is becoming more common to see it in the AKC rings and judges are starting to reward it it seems. SchH heel position is also a bit forward of AKC, so a point or two might be lost in the AKC ring for forging. But for the most part, at the lower levels of AKC especially, there isn't that much difference. Sit is sit and down is down and a recall is a recall. Then for the exercises that are really different (Utility level) you just teach those exercises normally and they shouldn't interfere with SchH work or vice versa.

Given the differences in the style and what is looked for and allowed, I would focus on SchH obedience and pick up the AKC titles along the way. This is a much easier crossover than training for AKC and then trying to do SchH. Part is the focus needed in SchH heeling. Teach the common AKC way without it, and you'll lose big points in SchH. Whereas teach the SchH way with it, and while not needed in AKC it won't hurt anything either. Hand signals, using the dog's name in conjunction with a command, and stay commands are also not allowed in SchH, whereas they are in AKC. Train a dog with them and you may create bad habits and other issues that will cause problems in SchH, whereas training without them like you need to do for SchH won't hurt in the AKC ring.

DH and I do UKC OB and Rally with our SchH dogs (saving AKC for next year.. only so much time and $ for entry fees!) and they've done just fine. Never had a judge have a problem with the SchH style of working, or that we use German commands, don't use a "stay" command, don't use hand signals, etc... I know plenty of other SchH folks who have done AKC/UKC OB and they have crossed over just fine to. The biggest difference is in the environment. The AKC type trial environment tends to be much more noisy, chaotic, distracting and claustrophobic compared to the SchH trial field. But that's just a matter of getting the dog used to it and a soundly temperamented dog will adjust to it just fine.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

You don't need to learn German, just a few commands. I use Dutch commands in performance and English words around the house. 

Dr. P's Dog Training: Commands in Several Languages


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