# Straight back vs Sloped back



## RobBlueMaro

Multiple times I have heard GSD's referred to as either a straight back or a sloped/angled back. What is the difference between the two, besides the obvious shape of the dog? I have attached a picture of my almost 2 year old, Ollie. This was taken 2 weekends ago. Is he what you would call a straight back? Is the back a hereditary thing or can a litter of GSD's consist of both types?

Thanks for the info, and sorry for the newbie question.


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## martemchik

Those are two extremely uneducated statements that people make when they don’t know any better. Basically “straight back” started as a marketing term in order to move away from the more sloped and in some cases extremely sloped show lines from a decade or longer ago. It’s an extremely incorrect statement as most people don’t understand why the back looks either straight or sloped in pictures. What most people mean by straight is that the back is parallel to the ground, which is actually not correct as per the breed standard especially when the dog is in movement which a “stack” is trying to replicate. Most GSD can be made to either look like their back is parallel to the ground (like your dog in that picture) or with a slight slope in the back from the withers to the hips. If you were to just move your dog’s feet back 6-12 inches, you’ll see how your dog is also capable of a sloped back. I'm actually going to say that your dog isn't standing "naturally" in that picture and the back feet should be farther back which would produce a more natural and comfortable stance and also a slanted back.

A lot of people think that because the majority of dog breeds have backs parallel to the ground, that it must be the healthiest way. Many also equate a slanted back to hip health. None of these things are true and only a complete understanding of the anatomy and the conformation of the GSD can help someone understand why the angles in the back legs are the way they are, why the dogs move the way they do, and why they appear the way they do in pictures.


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## jarn

As I discovered. I always thought Luc's back was good because it looks 'straight' but he has slight roaching as per our chiropractor.


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## RobBlueMaro

Hmm, makes sense. I had seen multiple comments about the backs in this forum so I was a little confused on that topic. Thanks for clearing it up!


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## RobBlueMaro

Jarn, when you say "roached", what exactly does that mean?


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## martemchik

A roach, is when the highest point on the dog's back isn't the withers. So it looks like the dog's back goes up from the neck, and then down to the hips.


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## RobBlueMaro

Is that a common thing with GSD's? Does it usually show up at a certain age? Will you be able to see it simply by looking at the dog?

Sorry for all the questions.


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## martemchik

No, this is something that IMO is incorrect and it is genetic. If you stretch out your dog, keep their head level or even raised, you'd be able to see it if your dog has it. It's there basically from birth.


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## Gwenhwyfair

^what Max said.

Also, do a search on this site for the term "roach" and you'll find quite a bit of info, with pics and discussions in more detail.





RobBlueMaro said:


> Is that a common thing with GSD's? Does it usually show up at a certain age? Will you be able to see it simply by looking at the dog?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions.


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## Nigel

The sloped back was bred so that pesky children would slide off and not be able to "ride" on them.


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## Kahrg4

Nigel said:


> The sloped back was bred so that pesky children would slide off and not be able to "ride" on them.


Someone took their ornery pill this morning.


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## Nigel

Kahrg4 said:


> Someone took their ornery pill this morning.


Sorry, just joking, others have pretty much got this answered, no offense OP!


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## RobBlueMaro

Good thing you clarified! I was about to go buy a saddle and throw my niece and nephew on his back and let him carry them around!!!!! 

No worries, I can handle a little joke


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## Liesje

The back of a GSD should be strong and firm and have some slope because they should have a nice high wither. I've seen photos with "level backed" dogs that are actually sway-backed and that is *not* correct for this breed. The angle of the slope will differ depending on how the dog is put together overall (how high is the wither? angulation in the rear, length and lay of the croup, etc). Many GSDs have toplines that are straight *and* sloped.


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## Becks1234

Hello, I just bought a German shepherd and I was wondering if her back is normal. I’m very upset because I’m worried about her. Please lmk if my dogs spine is ok!!!


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## Becks1234

Becks1234 said:


> Hello, I just bought a German shepherd and I was wondering if her back is normal. I’m very upset because I’m worried about her. Please lmk if my dogs spine is ok!!!


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## Becks1234

Baileys back please help!


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## Becks1234

Second pic of bailey


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## Becks1234

Third pic of bailey


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## Pistol Pete

your puppy looks like she doesn't feel well. 

To me, anyway, there's just something "off" looking about her.

Have you had her examined by a vet?


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## Shadow Shep

Pistol Pete said:


> your puppy looks like she doesn't feel well.
> 
> To me, anyway, there's just something "off" looking about her.
> 
> Have you had her examined by a vet?


I'm thinking the same thing.


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## Becks1234

Pistol Pete said:


> your puppy looks like she doesn't feel well.
> 
> To me, anyway, there's just something "off" looking about her.
> 
> Have you had her examined by a vet?


Yes I’ve had two vets look at her and take xrays. The first vet said she has serious roach back and will need lots of help down the line. The second vet says she totally normal that she’s show line breed and sloped back. The xrays showed her hips are nicely seated and the back looks normal. I don’t know who to believe. The second vet was the one who said she could go for sale. The pet store said if I get a second vet to say she’s got issues, they will take her back to the breeder and refund my money. So that makes me sad cause I’ve bonded with her. I don’t know what to do. The other forum says she looks totally normal but I just feel like somethings off


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## Bearshandler

The earliest I would consider hip xrays relevant is 6 months. While I can’t guarantee you the dog won’t or doesn’t have issues, that aren’t from the shape or appearance of her back.


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## Jenny720

Your puppy looks good and not “ sloped back” Sloped back often a misused term. she has a typical west German showline structure which often appear to have a roached back the way the back aligns. Some are more moderate, moderate and some are extreme. As she build muscle and weight her back may appear less roached. Her health should not be effected - she may perhaps be limited in her athletic ability or not limited at all. She is a cutie enjoy her.


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## 496955

martemchik said:


> Those are two extremely uneducated statements that people make when they don’t know any better. Basically “straight back” started as a marketing term in order to move away from the more sloped and in some cases extremely sloped show lines from a decade or longer ago. It’s an extremely incorrect statement as most people don’t understand why the back looks either straight or sloped in pictures. What most people mean by straight is that the back is parallel to the ground, which is actually not correct as per the breed standard especially when the dog is in movement which a “stack” is trying to replicate. Most GSD can be made to either look like their back is parallel to the ground (like your dog in that picture) or with a slight slope in the back from the withers to the hips. If you were to just move your dog’s feet back 6-12 inches, you’ll see how your dog is also capable of a sloped back. I'm actually going to say that your dog isn't standing "naturally" in that picture and the back feet should be farther back which would produce a more natural and comfortable stance and also a slanted back.
> 
> A lot of people think that because the majority of dog breeds have backs parallel to the ground, that it must be the healthiest way. Many also equate a slanted back to hip health. None of these things are true and only a complete understanding of the anatomy and the conformation of the GSD can help someone understand why the angles in the back legs are the way they are, why the dogs move the way they do, and why they appear the way they do in pictures.


If what your saying was true then why were the original German Shepherds straight backs?

*Horand von Grafrath* (January 1, 1895 - after 1899) (formerly *Hektor Linksrhein*) was the first German Shepherd Dog and the genetic basis for modern German Shepherds.


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## Sunsilver

Horand's back would be considered incorrect by modern standards, due to the dip behind the withers. Some would call this a sway back.


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## 496955

Sunsilver said:


> Horand's back would be considered incorrect by modern standards, due to the dip behind the withers. Some would call this a sway back.


That's true but I guess what I'm trying to point out and from what I have read is the "slant" back of the modern GSD is actually incorrect compared to the original breed of German Shepherd. I also believe the slant back of the modern day German Shepherd is why they are more prone to getting Hip Dysplasia. Please correct me if I'm wrong?


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## Sunsilver

You DID read what's been said about this already, didn't you?



> *Most GSD can be made to either look like their back is parallel to the ground (like your dog in that picture) or with a slight slope in the back from the withers to the hips. If you were to just move your dog’s feet back 6-12 inches, you’ll see how your dog is also capable of a sloped back.* I'm actually going to say that your dog isn't standing "naturally" in that picture and the back feet should be farther back which would produce a more natural and comfortable stance and also a slanted back.
> 
> A lot of people think that because the majority of dog breeds have backs parallel to the ground, that it must be the healthiest way. *Many also equate a slanted back to hip health. None of these things are true and only a complete understanding of the anatomy and the conformation of the GSD can help someone understand why the angles in the back legs are the way they are, why the dogs move the way they do, and why they appear the way they do in pictures. *




So, to sum it up, there is absolutely NO connection between a 'sloped' back and hip dysplasia.
What appears to be a sloped back is created by stacking the dog, and pushing the dog's rear end down slightly so the hock farthest away from the view is bent. If the dog were standing with all 4 feet directly beneath him, the back would appear level, or nearly so.

The biggest change in the GSD in the last 40 years is the angulation of the hind legs. The show line dogs have been bred for a longer upper thigh. This gives them a more impressive, roomy trot which is desired in the show ring. It has also greatly increased the number of dogs that have cow hocks, and wobbly rears.


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## Jax08

The breed founder dictated the angulation of the breed. So I don't think posting a picture of the first dog he chose to prove your point makes sense. He brought in many other dogs to create the dog he wanted based on breed standards he created. I think you should read the actual SV standards and have a better understanding of angulation compared to the different sections of the body that contribute to the over angulation, including the legs.

And no, the slope has absolutely nothing to do with hip dysplasia. That has been proven wrong over and over. HD is a combination of genetics and environment. The fact that HD has dropped significantly since they started the rating system, in the same time period that slopes have become more extreme, shows that the slope is not a contributing factor.


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## Sabis mom

DogLover58 said:


> f what your saying was true then why were the original German Shepherds straight backs?
> 
> *Horand von Grafrath* (January 1, 1895 - after 1899) (formerly *Hektor Linksrhein*) was the first German Shepherd Dog and the genetic basis for modern German Shepherds.


Tequila is the base for a margarita. Doesn't mean I can serve up a shot of tequila and call it a magarita.


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> Tequila is the base for a margarita. Doesn't mean I can serve up a shot of tequila and call it a magarita.


Depends how many shots in they are. It is tequila.


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## 496955

Sunsilver said:


> You DID read what's been said about this already, didn't you?
> 
> 
> 
> So, to sum it up, there is absolutely NO connection between a 'sloped' back and hip dysplasia.
> What appears to be a sloped back is created by stacking the dog, and pushing the dog's rear end down slightly so the hock farthest away from the view is bent. If the dog were standing with all 4 feet directly beneath him, the back would appear level, or nearly so.
> 
> The biggest change in the GSD in the last 40 years is the angulation of the hind legs. The show line dogs have been bred for a longer upper thigh. This gives them a more impressive, roomy trot which is desired in the show ring. It has also greatly increased the number of dogs that have cow hocks, and wobbly rears.


Yes I DID read what's been said already and I disagree with it which is why i'm questioning the validity of the statements being posted.









German Shepherd Sloping Back VS Straight Back - AllShepherd


Learn the “Whats”, “Whens”, “Whys” and “Hows” of the Sloped Back and Straight Back German Shepherds. Know the diseases that usually affects Sloped Backs.




www.allshepherd.com












Straight Back German Shepherd - Better Than The Sloped Back?


If you've ever thought about getting a German Shepherd, it's likely that you've been confronted with the straight back German Shepherd vs. sloped back German Shepherd. We'll cover the back type of the original breed




pawleaks.com






Jax08 said:


> The breed founder dictated the angulation of the breed. So I don't think posting a picture of the first dog he chose to prove your point makes sense. He brought in many other dogs to create the dog he wanted based on breed standards he created. I think you should read the actual SV standards and have a better understanding of angulation compared to the different sections of the body that contribute to the over angulation, including the legs.
> 
> And no, the slope has absolutely nothing to do with hip dysplasia. That has been proven wrong over and over. HD is a combination of genetics and environment. The fact that HD has dropped significantly since they started the rating system, in the same time period that slopes have become more extreme, shows that the slope is not a contributing factor.


Really?









German Shepherd Sloping Back VS Straight Back - AllShepherd


Learn the “Whats”, “Whens”, “Whys” and “Hows” of the Sloped Back and Straight Back German Shepherds. Know the diseases that usually affects Sloped Backs.




www.allshepherd.com












Straight Back German Shepherd - Better Than The Sloped Back?


If you've ever thought about getting a German Shepherd, it's likely that you've been confronted with the straight back German Shepherd vs. sloped back German Shepherd. We'll cover the back type of the original breed




pawleaks.com


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## Bearshandler

DogLover58 said:


> Yes I DID read what's been said already and I disagree with it which is why i'm questioning the validity of the statements being posted.
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> German Shepherd Sloping Back VS Straight Back - AllShepherd
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> Learn the “Whats”, “Whens”, “Whys” and “Hows” of the Sloped Back and Straight Back German Shepherds. Know the diseases that usually affects Sloped Backs.
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> www.allshepherd.com
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> Straight Back German Shepherd - Better Than The Sloped Back?
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> If you've ever thought about getting a German Shepherd, it's likely that you've been confronted with the straight back German Shepherd vs. sloped back German Shepherd. We'll cover the back type of the original breed
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> pawleaks.com
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> Really?
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> German Shepherd Sloping Back VS Straight Back - AllShepherd
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> Learn the “Whats”, “Whens”, “Whys” and “Hows” of the Sloped Back and Straight Back German Shepherds. Know the diseases that usually affects Sloped Backs.
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> www.allshepherd.com
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> Straight Back German Shepherd - Better Than The Sloped Back?
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> If you've ever thought about getting a German Shepherd, it's likely that you've been confronted with the straight back German Shepherd vs. sloped back German Shepherd. We'll cover the back type of the original breed
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> pawleaks.com


Those links are full of terrible information. The difference in this picture isn’t the back, it’s the angulayion of the back legs.


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## Bearshandler

DogLover58 said:


> Yes I DID read what's been said already and I disagree with it which is why i'm questioning the validity of the statements being posted.
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> German Shepherd Sloping Back VS Straight Back - AllShepherd
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> 
> Learn the “Whats”, “Whens”, “Whys” and “Hows” of the Sloped Back and Straight Back German Shepherds. Know the diseases that usually affects Sloped Backs.
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> www.allshepherd.com
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> Straight Back German Shepherd - Better Than The Sloped Back?
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> If you've ever thought about getting a German Shepherd, it's likely that you've been confronted with the straight back German Shepherd vs. sloped back German Shepherd. We'll cover the back type of the original breed
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> pawleaks.com
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> Really?
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> German Shepherd Sloping Back VS Straight Back - AllShepherd
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> Learn the “Whats”, “Whens”, “Whys” and “Hows” of the Sloped Back and Straight Back German Shepherds. Know the diseases that usually affects Sloped Backs.
> 
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> 
> 
> www.allshepherd.com
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> Straight Back German Shepherd - Better Than The Sloped Back?
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> If you've ever thought about getting a German Shepherd, it's likely that you've been confronted with the straight back German Shepherd vs. sloped back German Shepherd. We'll cover the back type of the original breed
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> pawleaks.com


Let’s create a baseline here? What do you know about German shepherds? Tell me about bloodlines, angles in the front and rear, colors, coats, temperaments, hip dysplasia?


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## Jax08

well disagree away. It doesn't make you right. lol I would advise you actually read the SV standard and find legit resources instead of "pawsleak".


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## mnm

Back has nothing to do with the hips except that it connects with the pelvis which contain the hip sockets. The breed is stacked in a three point stack for critiquing the conformation, as you can see all the necessary angulations. There is supposed to be a slope from the withers to the end of the loin, and then another angulation for the croup. What has drastically changed over the years is breeding for the extreme angulation of the rear legs, and some have changed the shape of the back over the years, getting the banana back or roached back. Linda Shaw had a book that showed a lot of these changes structurally over the years. There's been a lot of good correct information already given by knowledgeable people. Studying the SV Breed Standard would be a good start....


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## Lukas77

The founder of the breed liked the structure of this dog according to his book, less angulation and a more straight back compared to also many workinglines of today,





Utz vom Haus Schütting


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Utz vom Haus Schütting




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## David Winners

There are angulation and slope in the best of the working dogs as well. There is no thought given to form over function in the working dog world in Holland. Everything is about the work and longevity.


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## Rionel

Here's a current breeder's take on it (see 6:15 ) : 




Historically, dogs can be seen stacked, with slight rise at withers, taper at croup, and still represent a fairly straight back:






Hein vom Richterbach


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Hein vom Richterbach




www.pedigreedatabase.com









Daja vom Bernstein-Strand


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Daja vom Bernstein-Strand




www.pedigreedatabase.com





And during the same time frame you see dogs like Bernd with slightly more taper, but still not to the degree of the modern ASL dogs :





Bernd vom Lierberg


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Bernd vom Lierberg




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Food for thought.


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## Rionel

Becks1234 said:


> Third pic of bailey


Just saw the OP is from 2015 - lol.


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