# the complete package



## swilso05 (Jul 26, 2012)

First, I would like to say that I am not a first-time owner of a working line gsd. I have raised and trained two and been involved with a schutzhund club in the past. I have no delusion that I am anywhere near being an expert. I just started my research for my next and have an observation and would like opinions. 

After researching many breeder websites, I've noticed that, although most of the studs are what i consider beautiful - dark pigment, substantial bone, nice head - and according to claims have good temperament and working ability, rarely do i see a picture of dogs they have sold as pups that are much more than shadow of the sire. Granted, I'm sure these dogs have great working ability, but they just don't have the "look". I have seen many that do that are sold as adults, but I assume most are former stud or high level sport dogs have served their purpose for that breeder.

So my question is...... can your average buyer ever expect to get a pup that will become a dog with the great looks and working ability and temperament? Or are these dogs really THAT rare? Do breeders keep them for themselves/their breeding program or for specific buyers? If they do, it's understandable. 

Before I start getting the responses of how the appearance should be a secondary concern and how i should be more concerned with temperament, let me say that I get that. But is it so wrong to want all of the above?

Maybe the problem is that I want a puppy and that's kind of a crap-shoot. Maybe I'm way off base here. I very interested in what you guys have to say.


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

swilso05 said:


> First, I would like to say that I am not a first-time owner of a working line gsd. I have raised and trained two and been involved with a schutzhund club in the past. I have no delusion that I am anywhere near being an expert. I just started my research for my next and have an observation and would like opinions.
> 
> After researching many breeder websites, I've noticed that, although most of the studs are what i consider beautiful - dark pigment, substantial bone, nice head - and according to claims have good temperament and working ability, rarely do i see a picture of dogs they have sold as pups that are much more than shadow of the sire. Granted, I'm sure these dogs have great working ability, but they just don't have the "look". I have seen many that do that are sold as adults, but I assume most are former stud or high level sport dogs have served their purpose for that breeder.
> 
> ...


You make some excellent points..It is a crap shoot for the average puppy buyer..my biggest concern when looking for Nala, who is now 4 months and took me close to a year to find, was hips and elbow ofa ratings on the parents and grandparents.. I lost my last shepherd at ten because of hip problems and did not want to go through that pain and heart break again. Temperament was also a big concern. But even if the parents and grandparents are perfect, as you say it is still a crap shoot because there is no guranatee the puppy will turn out ok..Is there a good chance? Sure there is,but again no guranatee.
I know most reputable breeders have a guarantee in there contract, but even after having Nala only 2 plus months, if something were wrong or became wrong with her, I wouldn't return her in a million years. So that type of guarantee does me no good


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## amaris (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't think every puppy produced is a shadow of the generations of good breeding he comes from. Personally speaking, I was very pleased with the youngster i got from my breeder, his dad was a multiple time USA Sieger, his kennel has produced quite a few Siegers, including the recent Universal one, if i'm not mistaken...

Other pups from his kennel have gone on to become guide/assistance dogs in Europe and North American and Munich, my pup got taken in by the Vancouver PD as a k9 in training, great dog, great personality, good with kids and adults alike, willing to work, loved to play...looooooves food....

I think saying that every pup is a crapshot is true, but looking up good lines that you want your pup to come from and looking out for good breeders and kennels, kinda helps you stack your odds of getting a great dog....


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

A great dog for you, you know. Of course, everyone has their own preferences. 

When breeding dogs and trying to produce a certain dog, it's ALWAYS a crap shoot. Some breedings, though, are less crap shoots than others when looking for a certain dog.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

they're puppies and they change with age but a pup surely can grow to have a great temperament and working ability. if they didn't people wouldn't buy them and i think all of your experience should have shown you that.



swilso05 said:


> >>>>First, I would like to say that I am not a first-time owner of a working line gsd. I have raised and trained two and been involved with a schutzhund club in the past. <<<<
> 
> I have no delusion that I am anywhere near being an expert. I just started my research for my next and have an observation and would like opinions.
> 
> ...


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

My dogs little imperfections is what makes him perfect for me.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when you use a reputable breeder the crap shoot aspect is
low to none and you don't have to be an experience buyer
because the pups are peas in a pod.



m1953 said:


> >>>> You make some excellent points..It is a crap shoot for the average puppy buyer..<<<<
> 
> 
> my biggest concern when looking for Nala, who is now 4 months and took me close to a year to find, was hips and elbow ofa ratings on the parents and grandparents.. I lost my last shepherd at ten because of hip problems and did not want to go through that pain and heart break again. Temperament was also a big concern. But even if the parents and grandparents are perfect, as you say it is still a crap shoot because there is no guranatee the puppy will turn out ok..Is there a good chance? Sure there is,but again no guranatee.
> I know most reputable breeders have a guarantee in there contract, but even after having Nala only 2 plus months, if something were wrong or became wrong with her, I wouldn't return her in a million years. So that type of guarantee does me no good


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think my young dog looks and acts quite a bit like his sire. So far nothing about his conformation, behavior, or working abilities has surprised me which tells me that whatever I saw in his parents (and I'll admit it was mostly the sire) that drew me to the breeding must have also been produced in him. My older dog, well I actually like his looks and temperament *better* than his sire. He is closer to the conformation I like than his sire, and I think he works better too (his sire failed the already low standard of bitework at the Sieger show and my dog has never failed anything).

However I have heard many times that often dogs will look and act more like their grandparents, and when evaluating pedigrees you look 3, 4, 5 generations back not just the sire and dam.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Some dogs reproduce them selves like bot flies. Some dogs throw a lot of variance. Just keep looking. You will find what you are looking for. 

By the way, welcome to the forum! I hope you stick around and keep us posted on your endeavors!


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Liesje said:


> However I have heard many times that often dogs will look and act more like their grandparents, and when evaluating pedigrees you look 3, 4, 5 generations back not just the sire and dam.


Interesting, I will have to check Kodas grandparents.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

You really have to look at the combination of both the sire and the dam together. A line breeding will usually throw more consistency than an out crossing.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

for me it's more what's on the inside vs the outside, tho I have been blessed with some nice looking dogs if I do say so myself

I always say I'd rather have a smart ugly dog than a beautiful dumb one

I agree they are out there, may not be to easy to find, but I know just from this forum there are a few breeders who have really nice temperamentally sound dogs that are quite versatile and look good too


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Smart is important-also like dogs with personality-I don't believe that crap shot thing-Rorie looks like her sire I think-really glad she's a girl-I think she and Anja are beautiful


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

it also depends on the age of the off spring, it usually takes 2.5-3.5 years to be a fully filled out adult male, so they may have started breeding at 4, then you are seeing 1.5 yr old kids and a very mature dad.. wait a few years then see how many fill out as much. Also the same sire bred to different females also makes a difference, if they are carefully monitoring who uses the dog and pedigrees they may have more consistency...I prefer to see some consistency from a kennel, that no matter who the parents are there is a type/tempement you can recognize. hope you find what you wish for


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have a 3yr old at my home that is her father. She has all the drive, temperament, hard headedness of her father, in a females body. She has a feminine head. As she should. As stated above, puppies take time to mature and fill out. Some times it takes until 3-4 yrs old.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Not a breeder, but would guess that the reason these studs were in demand is that they are the exception rather than the rule.

that's not to say that you may find one of their progeny that reflects the best of the sire.

There are just so many genetic variables.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

trudy said:


> it also depends on the age of the off spring, it usually takes 2.5-3.5 years to be a fully filled out adult male, so they may have started breeding at 4, then you are seeing 1.5 yr old kids and a very mature dad.. wait a few years then see how many fill out as much.


This is a very good point. With some lines, particularly some of the Eastern ones, it can take even longer for males to fully mature and fill out. The same dog can look very different at 2, 4, and 6, so the same is going to hold true for a sire and his offspring until those offspring are fully mature.

Another thing to take into consideration is whether or not the offspring were neutered by their owners, and at what age. Many people, especially pet owners, will neuter their males when they are quite young and cutting off those hormones early can have a significant impact on how the dog matures physically.


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## swilso05 (Jul 26, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> they're puppies and they change with age but a pup surely can grow to have a great temperament and working ability. if they didn't people wouldn't buy them and i think all of your experience should have shown you that.


I didn't mean to come across in my original post that I think I have much experience with working dogs. I believe that I am relatively inexperienced compared to most on this board. My point was that I'm not completely new to this. 

I agree with you that puppies can grow with age to have great temperament and ability. In my limited experience, I have seen that. I don't think it's that hard to find great pups with a ton of working ability. My original post was in regards to not seeing many testimonials w/pic or other pics on these websites of progeny that had the looks of the stud dogs. Maybe I took your post the wrong way, but why would you remark about what you think my experience "should have shown me"? If my experience and observations had shown me something different, I wouldn't have written the post. 

My intention was to hear of others' experiences and knowledge to the contrary or get explanations that might give me different perspective or other avenues to research for my next dog.


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## swilso05 (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks for all of the replies. I appreciate the info. 

I hadn't considered that the dogs may look more like the grandparents. Also a good point about the age. It didn't even register that a lot of the pics are of young dogs. Makes sense though.... people are probably more inclined to send the pics initially when the dog is new to them and still young. And the crapshoot remark may have been a bit of an overstatement and might have come across wrong. Didn't mean to be insulting to any of you breeders.


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