# When to teach the "out"



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

When do you think is the right time to start teaching the dog to out? 

Anyone here teach the "out" right off the bat like Balabanov outlined in the Game? Advantage to teaching the "out" first? Disadvantage?


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## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

what is 'out'? Is it like 'get outside'?
I have not heard of that one...do tell


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Outing is the same as "let go."


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I started with 'aus' as soon as he was home. I actually didn't wait for that one.

Stark can have a piece of steak in his mouth now and with drop it with one command. This is one command he excels at all the time.. lol.

I taught it by trading whatever he had for something he wanted more (treats, another toy, etc..), it seemed to work quickly and effectively for us.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

I start every single time I have them give up or exchange a toy right from the git go... It makes it part of their natural behavior to give up whatever they have, be it a toy, food, or the bad guy's arm.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I start naming the behavior pretty early on...Although one thing I learned that I will caution on (although depending on the different methods, this may not be true for everyone) With the way I taught the dumbbell, I do not like to out a toy from my dog in the front when we play fetch. I also do not like to do a 2 ball out either. 

We created a problem in my first dog with the dumbbell because every time he would bring something back to me, he would drop it about 2 feet out for me to either throw it again or produce another ball. Great behavior for a pet that you want to play fetch with, caused a lot of conflict when we had to teach the front hold with the dumbbell. 

I will out with tugs like Balabanov does, because then the game can start right away again and anticipating the out doesn't really cause too many problems in that setting like it does with the retrieve (at least for me).


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Outing off of a toy held by the handler is different than outing off the helper. The dog is...or maybe should be is a better way to put it....in a different frame of mind when he is biting the helper. That's not saying people can't familiarize the dog with the command but if the dog outs as easily off the helper as he does when he is playing, something is not being done correctly. 
The dog has to be biting well, know how to fight back against the threats and aggression from the helper with his bite and bark and then the out training can start.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: VandalOuting off of a toy held by the handler is different than outing off the helper. The dog is...or maybe should be is a better way to put it....in a different frame of mind when he is biting the helper.


Anne,

So you don't see any harm in teaching puppy to "out" the toy early on? Right now with Ike I am leaving all the backtie/rag work to the helpers at our club. Of course at training once he wins the rag we always let him carry it back to the car and we don't ask him to out it. We just wait until he drops the rag. Now when I play with him at home I use the two ball method to get the first toy back. But I think the two ball game is a little confusing for Ike. Sometime he will play it "correctly" and other time he will not either not want to engage the second toy (preferring to play with the one he already has) or try to stuff two balls in his mouth.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:So you don't see any harm in teaching puppy to "out" the toy early on?


No, because it is different. Of course, as with everything, how much you do of something matters. Moderation is the key .


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Outing a toy and outing the sleeve are very different things due to the dog being in a completely different drive and mindset, as Anne mentioned.

However I do think that teaching out early on does give the handler a bit of a leg up later when it comes to outing the sleeve because the dog has a positive association with outing, not a negative one filled with conflict.

I start making word association with the out command with young pups every time we trade. And I do use methods like in Balabanov's "Game" later in obedience training and play to reinforce the out command. But there is still some teaching of the out needed in protection. The understanding of the command and compliance to it doesn't typically globalize to the protection field without additional work. 

I don't particularly like playing two-ball, and on the rare occasion I do I don't use the out command much, if at all, to get the dog to release the first ball so he can go for the second. When I do use the out command, it is almost always when my hands are on the object and have been for several seconds, not when the dog is just freely carrying the ball running back to me or as soon as my hands touch it. 

Reason is I do not want to condition my dog to automatically drop whatever he is carrying on his way back to me, or right in front of me, or anticipate me always commanding him to drop it when he gets to me or anticipate having to out the second I touch the object. This can create a bad habit, and one that can be particularly problematic in retrieves (especially if teaching a motivational retrieve) later on. I want the dog to be willing to release whatever he has when I want it, but I also want him to be possessive of what he has and continue to hold it until then.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:However I do think that teaching out early on does give the handler a bit of a leg up later when it comes to outing the sleeve because the dog has a positive association with outing, not a negative one filled with conflict.


I will just start by saying that of course, people can teach their dogs anyway they want. However, there are times when conflict can be a good thing. The idea that there should never be any is , IMO, not correct.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Michael Ellis has a nice video on tugging where the dog learns to return to the handler and the out is taught in the context of the play. He explains why beginning with a ball on string or two ball might not be as desirable. I do believe the video also mentions there is not a lot of transfer from this activity to protection for the reasons mentioned in earlier posts. 

As I was eating lunch, I was trying to concieve of what conflict looks like and why is often viewed as avoidable. I must be thinking of it in terms of where the communication is not clear to the dog. 

How is conflict defined and manifested in training?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is the dictionary definition:

psychological state resulting from the often unconscious opposition between simultaneous but incompatible desires, needs, drives, or impulses

I don't have any dog books to quote from.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

...and in keeping with the topic....dog wants to bite, handler wants him to out. That's a conflict. You can use that conflict to your advantage in training is what I am saying about conflict being a "good thing".


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Dieter Schmale gave a seminar at our club a few weeks back and it seems like his big thing with young dogs and pups is he wants to get them as stark raving mad for the toy as possible. So he used a lot of backtie to build frustration and when he went to get the toy back he didn't go up and immobilize the toy like some do. He would approach the dog from the side and try to snatch the toy away if the dog is mouthing it or flank the dog to get the toy out and then he would kick the toy out of reach immediately and start teasing the dog with it again. 

To me that seems like deliberately creating conflict and actively encouraging possessiveness in a dog. But, boy, did he get those dogs work up and crazy LOL.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Since Anne mentioned dog books, I looked to see what Helmut said about the out. 

Most dogs who refuse to out do so because they are afraid of what happens after they do. Since they didn't learn how to deal with the helper when they were not biting, they experience extreme psychological stress, which they prefer to avoid by not letting go in the first place. Only very few dogs don't out because of their strong fighting drive, with them the handler usually doesn't have enough authority which stems from inconsistent training. I consider it good training to teach the dog to do a hold and bark after the out since the dog has on one hand already learned that behavior, on the other hand it gives him the opportunity to relieve his pent-up aggression by barking. He therefore doesn't experience a drive build up which makes him break through again. AFter all, he has adopted the hold and bark on the motionless helper as a directed form of combat.

He also advises teaching the dog to out on the dead sleeve without undo pressure and by progression to maintain dog's confidence, prior to outing on the helper.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have only seen the use of immobolization of the toy in the context of the handler playing tug with the dog.

I don't think I have ever seen a helper use close body presence and toy immobolization for an out when working to build prey drive in young dogs. The out is not usually taught there as the dog has not been developed enough.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:Most dogs who refuse to out do so because they are afraid of what happens after they do. Since they didn't learn how to deal with the helper when they were not biting, they experience extreme psychological stress, which they prefer to avoid by not letting go in the first place.


Which to me means what I already said: The dog has to be biting well, know how to fight back against the threats and aggression from the helper with his bite and bark and then the out training can start. 



> Quote:He also advises teaching the dog to out on the dead sleeve without undo pressure and by progression to maintain dog's confidence, prior to outing on the helper.


He is talking about outting once the helper slips the sleeve and the dog is holding it. Not where you are the handler and you have it and tell the dog to out. Not saying you are saying that Carla, just clarifying. Also, right there you are already laying the foundation for barking after the out if the helper is on his toes and engages the dog immediately when he lets go.

What I am talking about is keeping a "healthy" conflict between the helper and the dog. Chris is talking about creating a conflict between the handler and the dog. I am using that conflict with the helper and the way I might teach the out. Depending on the dog, that might mean using more nagging corrections to create more aggression there with the idea that the dog will channel those corrections into barking aggressively at the helper. I think this idea of avoiding conflict may be one reason why we see so many people teaching a silent guard. No conflict, no aggression not a very good bark. Of course, I do see some people take this idea to the extreme and just make the dog nuts. There is a right level of drive etc you have to achieve and you have to know your dog and what will work with him.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyI start naming the behavior pretty early on...Although one thing I learned that I will caution on (although depending on the different methods, this may not be true for everyone) With the way I taught the dumbbell, I do not like to out a toy from my dog in the front when we play fetch. I also do not like to do a 2 ball out either.
> 
> We created a problem in my first dog with the dumbbell because every time he would bring something back to me, he would drop it about 2 feet out for me to either throw it again or produce another ball. Great behavior for a pet that you want to play fetch with, caused a lot of conflict when we had to teach the front hold with the dumbbell.
> 
> I will out with tugs like Balabanov does, because then the game can start right away again and anticipating the out doesn't really cause too many problems in that setting like it does with the retrieve (at least for me).


This is the exact issue I am having with Stark and the dumbell. Hmmm...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

So, we can teach the concept of out within the game, such as tug. 
This may give you some advantage later as the dog will understand the mechanics of what you are asking. But, this is different than the out in protection. One should not begin outing on the helper too early just because you feel he knows the concept. The dog needs a skill set of how to deal with the helper and bring fight with his bite and bark as described by Anne and Helmut.

Is that what we came to?


I just gave a beagle a bath...I have a deep understanding of conflict now.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nikon has not done out in bitework yet.

In play/obedience, he outs his tugs clean and fast (I just lock up and he either outs automatically or when I say so). When he was younger he was not that interested in tugs, he was more interested in fetching than tugging, but now he's really loving to tug so I can use tugs.

With the ball, we've had some issues becase he usually does not out it and it's difficult for me to get it back without a lot of conflict. The TD would now like me to use two balls, which is different than what I was told at first but it keeps the game going and removes the conflict. When doing obedience I don't want to waste so much time either causing conflict or trying to figure out how to avoid it just to get the dang ball back and keep going. Otherwise the only way to get it back is to choke him for a loooong time, correct him HARD sometimes multiple times, or flank him pretty hard, none of which are really appropriate when just playing and doing obedience and none of which I like doing. I don't feel right getting so physical over something that I intentionally developed the drive for. I do like that he has so much ball drive and it doesn't bother me that he is possessive of the ball. He always brings the ball (or any toy) into me because what he really really wants to do is tug with it and he knows that only happens with me. Even though he won't out the ball, he doesn't just carry it away from me either. If anyone has any other advice for this I'm all ears.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Quote from Lies:

"....none of which are really appropriate when just playing and doing obedience and none of which I like doing. I don't feel right getting so physical over something that I intentionally developed the drive for........Even though he won't out the ball, he doesn't just carry it away from me either. If anyone has any other advice for this I'm all ears."

Hi Lies,
It is excellent that the dog brings the ball back to you to play, this, to me, is how it should be. He is playing with YOU, the ball is just the means in which to do it.

However, I must disagree about not correcting the dog for the ball. To me this is an important part of obedience. Obviously the dog likes the ball so it would be a mistake, in my opinion, not to use it just because you don't want to "create conflict" or "waste time". However, if you can not out the dog without a lot of commotion then it IS a waste of time and a big distraction. 
I would take the time to teach out on the ball seperately from other obedience exercises. That way it is not a distraction for you or the dog. I would just do it in the backyard while playing with the dog. It would go something like this:
*dog gets ball and you play tug
*make the dog sit calmly with ball in his mouth
*while holding string on ball, command "out" correct the dog if required (do NOT "snatch" the ball from the dog! He must open his mouth and let go.)
*when dog outs make sit
*dog gets ball again
*repeat 
Very quickly the dog learns to out and sit. The important thing is that it is all very calm, if you are hectic and crazy then the dog will be hectic and crazy and it will not work. 
You should not feel bad about doing what you need to do to make out, it is obedience the dog must obey.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Art, thanks for responding. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I don't use the ball, I still use it almost every time/every day, but lately have been having better luck using two at a time because I've been focusing on other things other than training a good out. I don't like commanding it if I don't think the dog is going to do it. He used to out the ball quite reliably, but this was back when his interest in the ball seemed to be more about the chase (probably figured out that out means we start the game over). Now that he is more about tugging with the ball (it's on a string), something has changed along with that where if he's really in drive or really into the tugging, he will not out on command. I have nothing against corrections or prong collars but the correction needed to get the out when he won't do it on command is harsh enough that it hurts MY hands (this is on a prong on the live ring). To me that's a bit much when we are not actually focusing on any out behavior. I'm not against some pressure and conflict but I'm not sure that's what I want right now in this phase (my dog is 16 months, if it matters). It's not really the dog's fault, since I've tried to encourage as much ball drive as possible, and haven't really worked specifically on an out even in obedience. Like you say, it's something I will need to work on and proof on its own.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

When a dog understands the 'out' but will take an opportunity to challenge the out-what kind of behavior is this?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies,

That is what I would do....work on outing the ball by itself. I understand your thoughts on the dog being 16 months and you probably want to keep him happy in the obedience, but my way of thinking is this: If I am already having problems with the dog outing a ball at this age, what problems will I have when the dog is 2 and that much stronger and more confident in himself? I realize everyone has their own way of doing things but this is something that I (just the way *I* do it) want to establish early on. The use of two balls certainly has its place, but it is a gimmick, a trick if you will. It is not obedience, it is the dog deciding for himself that the second ball is more important than the ball that he already has. 
If you are interested I can tell you how I would make the out if he requires that much of a correction, I think in one, maybe two sessions the dog will be outing the ball for you with no problem (and it won't hurt your hands). Just send me a PM if you are interested. 
To me, the out is a very important skill in obedience. It allows the handler to reward the dog, then quickly prgress with what they are doing instead of having to get distracted in a "fight" over the ball. It is also important for some other obedience exercises. 
This is just they way *I* look at it, I know plenty of folks who look at things differently and get excellent results, so please know that I am not saying that this is the only way to do things. It is just my opinion. 

Ttall,

I would say that not outing could be caused by a variety of things, and what it means depends on the specific context.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Art, thanks for your reply. I agree it's just something we need to focus on for a day or two (and I agree that two balls is just a gimmick, lol). My TD has given me some advice and it's definitely something we will work on. This flippantly not outing is a newer development. He used to out, or out 3 of 4 times and the 4th time out with one good correction, so it didn't interrupt the flow of training. I think our relationship has changed a bit (for the better) but this has also changed how we interact with the ball (tugging, rather than a chase/prey game or fetch). Lately we haven't done as much formal obedience and I've actually been using food quite a bit to train some non-SchH stuff over the holiday. You seem to know what you are doing and have a lot of experience but I'm a noob so I wait for club training to try anything out with my dog.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies,

Listen to your TD. He/she has seen your dog and can offer the best advice. 

Also, you are absolutely correct in regards to waiting for training at the club. If you are not sure of something or do not understand 100% what to do and where to go, it is best to wait until proper guidance is available. This is particularly true when pressure or force comes into the picture. 

Additionally, training programs vary widely. What may be vital for my training may not matter at all for someone else, or vice versa. Therefore, if you have someone else assisting you in training it is important that you let them know in advance what you are planning to do in the event that it could negatively affect their plans. 

Good training!


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

thanks for reply to me.I find out is very well obeyed by my dog when asked for--asked for twice mostly OK -any more than that forget it.I know repitition really not a part of formal competition but wonder if you have any thoughts ?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Ttall,

I probably do have an opinion on it, but you would need to be more specific. 

I do not want Jason's thread to be "hi-jacked" so it may be best if you start a new thread to ask your question.


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