# Well, I got stitches tonight



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Another fight broke out tonight. They weren't playing. Anytime I have seen them playing, I have been immediately stopped it and made Tessa come lie down. It happened so fast, they were standing next to each other and Dharma proceeded to but a paw over Tessa's back. I know this is a sign of dominance so I immediately jumped up and was headed toward them when Tessa attacked her. I tried to grab Dharma's back legs first but when I dragged her off Tessa, Tessa just followed and stayed on her. I'm not even sure at what point Dharma got me in the left hand (same freaking hand) it happened so quick. Tessa actually managed to get Dharma down, I managed to get her off of Dharma and then grabbed Dharma and pushed her into the garage. It actually was over pretty quick. Not quick enough though. I had to go to the ER and they had to put a stitch in each laceration. One on my wrist, at the base of my thumb and one about 1/2" in the center of my palm. They only used one stitch to allow it to cont to drain. And of course it was reported. The only good thing is the AC officer isn't coming out until after I have time to get Dharma's rabies certificate tomorrow.

I am taking Tessa to the vet tomorrow for a work up. I want to make sure there isn't something else going on with this increase in aggression. I don't have the physical set up to completely separate them but I am going to have to figure something out in the meantime to keep them apart. I have made a shaker can with coins and have it with me at all times. I think I am going to keep a leash on Tessa as well. I have contacted someone at the rescue for more ideas. 

I am truly concerned about this increase in aggression from her. 2 incidents in less than a week has me VERY worried. I have had problems with her barking at Dharma and running at her but only rarely actually attacking. There have been a few fights but NEVER this many this close together. Both girls are on strict NILIF as well. I have always used it but I have gotten MUCH stricter with it now. I know in the past there has been an increase in aggression when she is sick. That was how we found her ear infections last time. I had taken her in because I was having issue with her jumping up from her sleep and running after Dharma barking like a mad woman. That behavior stopped once the infections cleared up. Hopefully the vet can find a reason for this behavior as well. I can't have her attacking Dharma every time I turn around. 

I have thought about "crate and rotate" but I only have the physical space for one crate and that is Tessa's. And she gets quite upset whenever Dharma gets in there. The few times Dharma has gotten in there Tessa gets jealous and doesn't like her in there. And I just don't have a place to put a second one. *sigh* I need a larger house, lol.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

wow. thats definitely no good. Poor Dharma. I bet she feels awful for biting mom. not sure what to tell you about Tessa though. She's 10 years old. I'd be heavily concerned with the increased aggression myself. Increased aggression resulting in a bite, accidental of course, and no ability to rotate... i'd be massively confused on how i would handle the situation. Possibly seperate them by rooms? beyond that.... i have no ideas other than maybe Tessa is ready to go?


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Oh no! I am so sorry 

I have never gone through this kind of issue, but could you maybe use a bedroom as a separation space?

I hope you heal fast.


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## Two (Jul 18, 2011)

Sorry to hear about this. Hope everything gets better for you and your dogs!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

From you description it looks like Dharma started it with the paw on the back. At Tessa's age she probably has a shorter fuse. Also Dharma is bigger and probably more threatening and Tessa is reacting with fear aggression. These are just possibilities. So don't blame Tessa entirely and keep them separated. JMHO and good luck. I have been through this and the only thing that really works is keeping them separated.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> Another tip...lots of endorphins are released during a dog fight and it takes a good while for that level to go down. I would be very cautious around the dogs immediately after the fight as well as keeping them separate and crating/rotating for a good while.
> I would also never leave them home unattended loose, together. Sadly I have heard many stories of people coming home to a blood bath. The first fight was bad, you don't want to see what it could be like when you are not there to help calm the situation.


I wanted to make sure you saw this in your other thread. I've heard that it takes a few days for the endorphins to leave the body after a big fight so another one is likely to happen. You need to figure out a way to keep them separated even if it means moving Tessa to another home. 

This situation isn't going to get better but it can be managed. It is going to require work and for you to be on your game at all times to avoid further injury to yourself or the dogs. Although I've never been in the situation myself, I've heard that bitches never forget a fight and once they start, they don't stop. 

Good luck at the vet with Tessa and I hope that you heal quickly.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

PaddyD said:


> From you description it looks like Dharma started it with the paw on the back. At Tessa's age she probably has a shorter fuse. Also Dharma is bigger and probably more threatening and Tessa is reacting with fear aggression. These are just possibilities. So don't blame Tessa entirely and keep them separated. JMHO and good luck. I have been through this and the only thing that really works is keeping them separated.


This. 

Get someone in there to see the dynamic. From reading this stuff, and not seeing it, sounds like Dharma is running the show in your home. She is in charge, she is taking advantage of an old dog, and knows she can get away with it, and it is absolutely unacceptable. Dharma would be tethered to me and her obedience would be POPPING. I would no more tolerate a dog bullying an old dog than I would them doing it to a puppy. 

There should be a room with a door? And if there is only one crate, and it's the old dog's crate, and that's an issue, guess who is going to have to learn to not go in there? MY dog. But not at this point because your situation is deteriorating. 

In dogs who are jerks (this is how I view it, sorry, having seen dogs be the opposite and show care and respect to older dogs) when senior dogs get sick or more vulnerable, they ramp up their jerkiness in the face of the other dogs inability to defend. So Tessa may very well have an infection or be getting a little creakier. Is she on any meds? 

Until you get someone in there, and Tessa to the vet, crate (or room) and rotate. 

Best would be to, in the future, train Dharma that all good things come from being "good" around Tessa. I don't know if she gets that there are rewards for being appropriate. If not, that would be something I would discuss with a trainer. That way she has no confusion about her expectations. 

But for now...keep them apart.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I use baby gates in door ways when i need to seperate mine, you can even stack them one on top of the other to make it higher so the dog won't jump the gate, I use doorways where the dogs can't see each other. 
Good Luck, I agree with JeanKBBMMAANN on uping Dharma's obedience, Frank is 15mos and tries to test the pushiness with Indy once in a while and when he does I get on him big time. Frank doesnt' do that with King who is 8 he seems to walk around him and King has always been a wimpy type dog to me.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I agree with the others that it really sounds like a behavioral issue, but with Tessa, at her age, thyroid dysfunction could be coming into play. Just a thought.

I agree with Jean's assessment - I think Dharma has some lessons to learn, I don't think Tessa is the problem here.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Same sex aggression is not an uncommon problem in this breed. It is not a "dominance" issue, it's an issue of not being willing to share resources with another same sex dog. So I disagree at the idea that training and being stricter will fix it.

Considering one of the dogs involved is a 10 year old, I'd probably suggest crate and rotate. IMO it is the most appropriate option once injuries (human or dog) start to happen due to fights and the owner wants to keep both dogs. You may not have room in an ideal location for a crate but may need to squeeze one in somewhere that is less appealing to you. I did C&R for 10+ years in a small house with multiple dogs and three other people. Definitely not ideal but necessary. Ideally, set ti up so that the crated dog can be behind a closed door and have some peace such as a bedroom. Alternatively, if both dogs will respect baby gates, you could try to go that route and keep them separated into different rooms or parts of the house using baby gates. Or use the baby gate in conjunction with keeping the roaming dog from harassing and "crate fighting" with the crated dog. Since you only have two dogs, you could probably manage crate and rotate with just one crate - just lock one dog in another room while getting the other out then put that dog in a room and put the first dog in the crate.

I would strongly suggest not bringing another bitch in with Dharma once Tessa is gone. I'm not sure why you assume the issue here is with Tessa, as your story seems to suggest that Dharma was the instigator. Even if that isn't the case, she certainly sounds more than willing to fight. At any rate keeping one leashed and one loose could lead to more problems, as leashes tend to increase frustration/aggression/space issues. Attempting to use something like a shake can as a correction is risky to, as it might just amp the dogs up more. Once the aggression starts, it is way too late to correct them any way. You would need to correct for the subtle exchanges that happen before obvious aggression. Hard stares, tense muscles, lips tightened, etc. And again, such things have a risk of increasing the aggression. Very often in tense situations, if you correct one of the dogs then the other will attack.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Okay, my mentor from the rescue is trying to get in touch with one of our volunteers who is also a professional trainer. If anybody saw the segment on Fox last week- she was the one on there. Hopefully, I will hear back from her today.

Tessa has a vet appt at 3p. 

I don't know what the paw on the back was about- it was the first time I have seen Dharma do it. Normally Tessa bullies Dharma. I have had problems with it since I brought her home. Dharma has submitted to her since day one. I have seen her not make eye contact, put her head down, put her tail between her legs. Dharma will refuse to walk past Tessa when Tessa is laying in the hallway. She will bark until I come get her because so many times Tessa has jumped up and barked at her. But she has never attacked her. The few times it has happened has been during play. Like on Wed. I have stopped them from playing. And Tessa is the instigator in the play as much as Dharma is. She likes to play just as much. I have had to call her back just as often these last few days. They have a real love/hate relationship sometimes.

I am going to hold off on anything until I see what the trainer has to say. Except the vet. I am taking her there today. 

AC was at my house at 9am. I had literally just rolled out of bed. I hadn't even fed the dogs yet. Sheesh, I would have thought they would have called first. Luckily, no ticket, I was able to call my vet to get the rabies vaccine number though and the stupid house arrest starts over for another 10 days. He put both of them on it this time. Which is fine, if Dharma isn't going anywhere than neither is Tessa.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I just wanted to add Dharma is the smaller of the 2. She is 61# and lean. Tessa is large boned, #98, and at this point a bit over weight (I am hoping she has lost some on the green beans though). Tessa is MUCH more likely to engage then Dharma is.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Dharma may have been instigating play with the paw but Tessa was not in the mood. Dogs often use dominant gestures to instigate play but it doesn't work unless the other dog is in the same frame of mind.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Debi,

I'm sorry you got bit again. For whatever reason, it sounds like the dynamics are changing. Dharma is getting older and more mature and may have decided she doesn't like getting pushed around anymore. Regardless, you need to be super careful now b/c things may not go back to where they were before--they may have crossed a line in their relationship. 

What about using a gate to separate them?

I hope you come up with a workable solution soon! This must be incredibly stressful for you (which no doubt adds to the tension between the dogs).


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Ugh! I have no other solutions to offer than what has already been said here. I just wanted to tell you I hope that these issues are resolved sooner rather than later, and that I hope your poor hand heals quickly.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Just wanted to say that I hope that you can find a solution that will work for all of you, sending positive thoughts.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I am SUPER stressed right now. And maybe the dynamics are changing. I really don't know. I don't have a place for gates downstairs. My downstairs is a complete open floor plan. And it isn't that large. I have a large, wide foyer that opens into a living room and that opens right into a dining room/kitchen that is divided by my bar/sink/diswasher. So the kitchen is technically a galley style. The other end is the back door. You can literally see the back door from the front door. 

The only real way to completely separate them is to put one upstairs and they both are such velcro dogs, I just don't think that would be doable. At least not for very long without having major damage done. I'm sure the barking and howling alone would get AC called on me by my neighbors. I'm going to talk to the trainer and see what she says. If I have to crate and rotate then I will have to do some major furniture adjustments to get a second crate in here but they would still be in the same part of the house. The only doors in my downstairs are the ones the go to my very small 1/2 bath and the garage- neither of which are an option. I could cover a crate though.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I just spoke to my mentor from the rescue. I am meeting with her tonight. She has a packet of info for me about working with aggressive dogs. There is also a local trainer that the rescue has used in the past that we can have come out and evaluate the situation and help me as well. She also gave me some ideas that helped her with one of her aggressive fosters. I am still waiting to hear back from VGSR's trainer but she is in NoVA so I doubt she will be able to do much more than talk to me on the phone. I think I need someone who can come to the house and evaluate the dynamics of the dogs and their behavior. The local trainer is mucho expensive and I hate to spend that much money but like I told my mentor, at this point I am pretty desperate and it has to be done. 

So we will see what all of these guys have to say and go from there.


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## Joshherd (Jul 11, 2011)

Yeah going to the vet is probably a good idea. Just to make sure there are no health issues that you should be concerned with. If all goes well there then you can focus on behavioral training. Our veterinarian http://www.banfield.com/Our-Hospitals had us do several months of training because of issues our dog had. Have to say we had thoughts that we might have to find another home for him. Its amazing what a difference training can do to resolve huge problems. Good luck to you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> *Dharma proceeded to but a paw over Tessa's back. I know this is a sign of dominance so I immediately jumped up and was headed toward them when Tessa attacked her.*


I think in addition to all that others have said that you need to be aware of your body language as well. If you jumped up and hurried towards them, that could have helped to set it off.

When I was fostering, my foster was gagging. I jumped up quickly to get to him and it signaled to Jax that something was "wrong". She lit in to him because of MY body language. I fully caused that situation. 

I think that with the previous fight, Tessa is on the defensive and all things combined may have set this off. Personally, I would crate and rotate for a few days to settle them down before I went any further.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Get a x-pen. They work great for keeping dogs separated when you can't gate or crate and the dog still gets to be 'part of the family'.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

This is just awful. I'm glad to hear someone is comming into your home to help you out. Having someone there looking at your home and all should be helpful. I tend to agree that there has to be a way to keep these two apart. If one doesn't like the other in 'her crate', well too bad, so sad. The crate doesn't belong to her anyway, the crate belongs to you. I'm sorry for sounding mean, but I really have issues with dogs that bite and fear for your safety. What if one of them goes for your face next time??? For your safety, as well as theirs, pls find a way to keep them seperate. I do wish you the very best.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

gsdraven said:


> I wanted to make sure you saw this in your other thread. I've heard that it takes a few days for the endorphins to leave the body after a big fight so another one is likely to happen. You need to figure out a way to keep them separated even if it means moving Tessa to another home.
> 
> This situation isn't going to get better but it can be managed. It is going to require work and for you to be on your game at all times to avoid further injury to yourself or the dogs. Although I've never been in the situation myself, I've heard that bitches never forget a fight and once they start, they don't stop.
> 
> Good luck at the vet with Tessa and I hope that you heal quickly.


 
I too, want to make sure you see this


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

An x-pen is a great idea!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

baby gates and x pens for dogs with an agenda -- I wouldn't trust that to be secure containment, separation.
Seems like the first time you had some major trauma with the dogs getting into a fight keeping the dogs absolutely totallly separated was recommended. I said they would get into it again -- they do not forget , not two females, not an older dog with a pushy youngster -- and that they will fight till one of them wins and the other loses , really loses .
You have to watch out for your safety . You have a major artery in your leg , site of the first bite, and a major artery on your wrist/arm. 

Is it worth it.

Carmen
http://www.carmspack


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I am living with this situation myself right now with two non-GSD females in a pack of nine total dogs. My four year old female (intact, shown in AKC competition) is trying to rise to the alpha position in my pack and she has gone after my two most senior females (both spayed, retired champions) in the past few days. I have already had a few unexpected fights and have been on stict crate and rotate with all of these females. We had a power failure last Wednesday night and I was getting the generator out. Somehow, my attention got diverted and my four year old attacked the ten year old female. That same day, my husband had been hospitalized and had emergency surgery. He came home on Friday night and, again another attack on Saturday morning, this time on the nearly 13 year old female. In Saturday's attack, my four year old female came in from the backyard and raced past me, charging the steel baby gate and jumped on the oldest female that I have. It is for this reason that I would never trust an x-pen. The two females were not even within sight of one another when she charged teh steel baby gate and jumped up on the back of my most senior female. 

I am now looking for another home for my lovely AKC champion female because it is simply not safe for my seniors and my fosters either. My household does not need the stress level and, painful as it is, I am being forced to think of the others (both human and canine) when it comes to this decision. 

This four year old came in to my home as a young puppy and was certainly lower on the totem pole than she wants to be now. I can't keep taking the seniors to have their ears repaired surgically and I am quite concerned about my possibility of getting bitten in the midst of trying to end the fight. There is no way that training is going to fix this situation and the only dogs that this female is safe with are my males. Finding her another home is the kindest solution for all of us.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

We just got back from the vet. Tessa had massive liquid diarrhea there. She had a loose stool this morning here but apparently according to the vet it was pure liquid and quite uncontrollable when it happened there. They had taken her to the back to examine her ears and trim her nails when it happened so I didn't see it. We think that probably set her off last night. She has a history of becoming more aggressive when she is not feeling well. It would not be the first time that her aggression was the first sign I had that something else was wrong with her. She has been started on Metronidazole. I am still meeting with my mentor tonight and going to have the trainer come to the house. We do need to work on this issue obviously and I am also going to have her help me with the fact she bullies Dharma the way she does. 

Right now, I am keeping them away from each other. Tessa is in her crate and Dharma in her spot in the foyer. They can still see each other but that has never really been an issue between them so I don't have a problem with that.

ETA: I hope we get the diarrhea under control fairly quickly. It is REALLY not going to be fun to have an incontinent dog having liquid diarrhea all over my house for the next few days.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

From a trainer's point of view, your situation is fixable -- but right now you really just need to find someone to help you through it (a professional trainer in your area). 

You being bitten is a direct result of trying to break up a fight, you haven't mentioned any bite wounds caused to the actual dogs (or have you, I might have missed it) -- this seems to me they aren't attempting to truly injure each other, else they would have done it by now. Something is going on in your house, just what is hard to say because in order to really know you're going to need an expert to observe.

I wish I was closer, but you're three hours away :/ I think they just need a bit of behavior modification training  I've worked with dogs with the same problems as yours -- so I've seen the behavior change and get better with work. ​


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

DharmasMom said:


> The only real way to completely separate them is to put one upstairs and they both are such velcro dogs, I just don't think that would be doable. At least not for very long without having major damage done. I'm sure the barking and howling alone would get AC called on me by my neighbors. I'm going to talk to the trainer and see what she says. If I have to crate and rotate then I will have to do some major furniture adjustments to get a second crate in here but they would still be in the same part of the house. The only doors in my downstairs are the ones the go to my very small 1/2 bath and the garage- neither of which are an option. I could cover a crate though.


 Dogs are much more adaptable than people give them credit for. C&R will take time for everyone to get used to but everyone will get used to it. Since one dog is older, it won't be forever. Everyone who ends up with fighting dogs wants for there to be some magic solution that will make them friendly towards each other again. However, the majority of same sex GSDs who start fighting, don't stop. Once they start fighting they can't really ever be trusted again, there is no going back to everyone being friendly. Attempting to force two dogs who have such tension with each other that they get into multiple fights (and end up injuring you in the process) to live together isn't good for anyone. Not good for the dogs and not good for you. 

Crate and Rotate:
Pit Bull Rescue Central


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

No, neither dog was injured. The vet did find a small mark on Tessa's ear today but that is it. Neither one has had any real injuries. I am the one who keeps getting wounded. And even then it wasn't even a case of redirection. It was literally my hand and thigh being in the way of Dharma's mouth.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The diarrhea could also be from stress so I think it's wise to continue with the behavior modification and getting help and not to assume the digestive issues were the cause of the fights. Again, I understand how stressful this must be for you. I hope you can take some time for yourself to relax a little. :hug:


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I plan to continue with the behavior modification.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Any particular reason why you are not using a muzzle when the two of them are together? They cannot injure each otheror you if they are muzzled.
Dogs get used to the muzzle, I used a mesh muzzle and they can eat and drink with it.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

This has really just escalated over the last few days but I may end up doing just that.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Your younger female is just a bully and trying to be top bitch!!! 

As some one said - an x-pen or baby gate is NOT secure containment!!! Heck, Ziberia at 10 weeks could get out of an x-pen...just because! 

Warring females is scary....you have to be vigilent and careful and it still happens!!! I try to never open the door to the basement, even if one is kenneled down there without crating the one up stairs....because once in a while, the one in the basement is loose and comes upstairs and then there would be a fight....

It is a royal PAIN! But you have to consider everyone's safety...especially your own!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Well, here's my short two cents though I posted my full two cents in the last post.

First, I can understand what you're going through and feeling. My Akira will absolutely kill a female that she lives with, given the chance. She does respect gates and pens, though certainly would never trust her unsupervised. Regardless, she has been like this since she was a little over 1 y/o, and she's now almost 8 y/o, so I've BTDT for many years now. We have a nice basket wire muzzle from leerburg, with the leather strap around the back of her ears and a padded leather strap over her nose, so her face is about as comfy as it's gonna get with a muzzle. She is absolutely fine wearing the muzzle and can be around our other female with no problems, with it on. Never trust a muzzle on a dog unsupervised though! I applaud you for giving training a shot, sometimes NILIF will knock this behavior off if it's not too serious. But if it's serious, and your other dog has seen the vet a couple times for major treatment due to injuries (as opposed to a "slobber fight" that sounds and looks bad but no damage is done), you'll know when it's time to throw in the towel and start crate and rotate. In our house, this time of yr (when no muddy paws are really an issue) here is what we have set up.

x-pen across the main room opening in the house, and sturdy gate in the other opening from kitchen to living room. Divides the house in about 1/3 and 2/3. Very large nice fenced secure backyard, as well as a 54" crate inside and a 30 x 18 ft secure kennel on concrete and sand/mulch outside. I never leave the girls in the house or yard even seperated. One girl inside, one outside. I have had one horrible accident happen where I let the attacker out and she **** near mauled the submissive female. It was bad. I still haven't forgiven myself for it, I just plain forgot the other one was in the backyard and not in the kennel. That was a $400 mistake that was almost a less expensive one (cremation of the body vs fixing up a living survivor), because it was all I and my SO who is a 6'3" VERY STRONG cop, and I a former one, to get them seperated. Bitches who are truely fighting will never be able to be together again. Period. No amount of NILIF, training, whatever, will make them get along. My other female is VERY submissive. If yours is at all fighting back, you are probably screwed. Mine won't even fight back except for desperate attempts to defend herself, and the other still won't let up.

I double check, triple check, everytime I let one into a different "area" whether it be the open house, the yard, the kennel, whereever. If the almost 8 y/o wasn't my "heart dog" who I raised from a pup at 7 1/2 wks old as a future leader dog (washed due to mild hip dysplasia) she would've been rehomed or euthanized after the last attack. it was THAT bad. I wanted to kill her myself, I was so sick over what had happened and how bad the damage to my other girl was. It took weeks before I could look at her without hating her. Years of crate and rotate and I thought I had it down. I was disgusted with myself for letting it happen, she is a dog and is just doing what they do. But it's hard when you're in that position not to want to blame the animal for the humans mistake. Luckily, yours is older and you don't have many years left (I know that sounds harsh, but it's reality once your life is crate and rotate).

Oh, by the way, both my girls being older have been sleeping out of crates for many many years. All this time, I have been crating one girl at night - rotating each night who sleeps with us vs who sleeps in the crate. Finally it dawned on me - one dog bed on each side of the bed, and a 6 ft tether hooked around the foot post of the headboard. The girls know which side they sleep on, and then they are tethered to their tiedown each night. So they can sleep out of the crate. Anyway, just a suggestion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DharmasMom said:


> I just wanted to add Dharma is the smaller of the 2. She is 61# and lean. Tessa is large boned, #98, and at this point a bit over weight (I am hoping she has lost some on the green beans though). Tessa is MUCH more likely to engage then Dharma is.



I am really sorry you were bit again. I sure hope your dog never ends up in a shelter situation because of the bite history, which is so unfortunate. 

Your younger bitch was born in 2009. She is around two years old. She is maturing. Asking her to live in the house with the Old Bitch is kind of like having your husband's x-wive come and live with you. This is pack aggression. The only way humans EVER get injured in pack aggression is when they try to break it up or if there is misdirected aggression -- You slip the older one quickly in a crate and the younger one hot in the fight turns and grabs the cat or anything else. When Arwen and Jazmine were going at it, they would fence fight back and forth, and then Arwen would grab a squeaky to and squeak the heck out of it. One time she tripped over Dubya and grabbed him. He was seven weeks old at the time, I had him out of her mouth instantly, but it was still NOT GOOD. A tarp was put between kennels and Dubya was removed from Arwen's. That worked.

BOTH of these bitches were fine with other dogs, fine in public, fine with children and people. And, Arwen enjoyed Dubya and never had a problem with him after that. 

It would be remarkable if you did NOT find something wrong with your ten year old foster, but that IS NOT the cause of this. The cause of this is that your younger bitch is maturing and maybe she senses some weakness in the older bitch. Doesn't matter if she does or doesn't. They will NOT duke it out and be done with it. If they duke it out, one will probably be dead and the other will probably need to be euthanized. Sorry. Bitches are like that. 

Crate/Rotate.

You can spend a ton of money on a behaviorist/trainer, you can up your leadership, you can up your training, but at the end of the day, probably when you are least prepared for it, your bitches are going to go at it again. And someone will lose half an ear or an eye, or have need sugery to stitch up or put drains in before you can separate them. 

And you are putting human emotions onto your dogs when you say that the larger one is much more likely to engage if you are saying that because of the age or size advantage. Dogs do not work like that. I think you have two dominant females -- not to you, but within the dog pack. And if you think the paw on the back was anything but an attempt to engage you're in denial. 

The good news is that you really do not have to have a behaviorist, NILIF workshop, two + hours a day exercise, 1+ hours a day training. Just keep them separated. You do not have a happy pack like Jean's Rocco Wonderland. You have two bitches who want to be on top. And maybe a Cesar Millan could slap them into shape and by way of his energy alone keep them from killing each other when he is in the room, but two dominant bitches living in harmony together after they have tried to kill each other. Well, it is not impossible, but improbable. 

If you cannot keep them separated. Get with your rescue and get the dog that is NOT yours out of there, and make sure that they do not home her with people who have or want female dogs with her. 

This is NOT people aggression, it is NOT dog aggression. This is pack order/same sex aggression. Crate rotate until the old one passes, or there will be more serious injuries. 

Not all females fight. Only those that have a personality trait of where they ought to be in the pack order that is very close to the other. Both are leader dogs, both are runner up dogs. If you have one bitch who is four or more years older than the other bitch, and the older bitch is a natural leader and the younger bitch is a natural follower, you are not going to have any problem, ever. Too bad you can't read it from a blood test, we could do it on puppies, before we home them. This one is a ten, so long as you have a 1 or 2 and home you will be fine. Doesn't work that way. 

Good luck, hope your hand heals quick. Some crazy places have one bite forgiveness and second bite euthanasia. I would figure out what the laws are there. The idea that they might sieze a dog that you own that bites you, especially during a dog fight is really out there, but some laws are really out there.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Bitches who are truely fighting will never be able to be together again. Period. No amount of NILIF, training, whatever, will make them get along. My other female is VERY submissive. If yours is at all fighting back, you are probably screwed. Mine won't even fight back except for desperate attempts to defend herself, and the other still won't let up.


 This has been my experience with same sex aggression as well. It is absolutely not about wanting to be "dominant". If it were, they would stop when the other gave up and there would be no reason to attack a dog offering appeasement gestures readily. My two GSD girls fought and neither would back down but only one was truly same sex aggression - the other just wasn't willing to walk away from a fight. With mine, the fights started off as scuffles but went to injury causing. The fighting became more violent every time because with each fight, they got better at fighting. I never was bitten breaking them up but my father nearly lost a finger when he was letting them out and accidentally let the GSD girls together. Dog fights can get seriously dangerous very, very quickly. 

This post has offered a lot of good advice. Never thought about tethering on each side of the bed. I'm not sure if I'd ever keep a dog with that degree of SSA again. With Jora, I couldn't rehome her because she was one of my favorite dogs of all time. But I'm not sure I could go through another decade of such a strict lifestyle with the dogs either.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I had a long talk with the trainer from VGSR tonight. She is in NoVA so she couldn't come to my house but I went into great detail about everything that has been going on since I got Tessa and she asked a lot of questions. She feels (and it makes A LOT of sense) that the biggest problem I am having is Dharma does not get enough exercise. She has WAY too much energy for Tessa and is always in play, play, play mode. She then tires Tessa out, gets too exuberant or rough with her and Tessa reacts. A fight ensues. 

Dharma obviously needs her exercise increased. That is extremely difficult right now with both of them on house arrest until the 12th so she suggested to do as much mental stimulation as possible. I taught them both hide and seek tonight. Tessa caught on MUCH quicker but Dharma still learned pretty quick and with in 10 minutes I had both of them searching for treats all over the living room and foyer. Dharma also did several sets of puppy push up (she wasn't so crazy about that- I think I got the equivalent of several doggy eye rolls). We also reinforced the training Dharma has already had and practiced, practiced, practiced. Even Tessa to practice her sit, downs, paw and stays. I think it has helped they seem more settled tonight. I have several training books I have bought. I think I will work on different tricks each night. Depending on what Tessa is able to do, I am even going to teach her some new tricks. Does anybody know anybody any good websites where I can find some good puzzles for them?? She recommended puzzles and said they would be a good way to mentally stimulate them as well.

The trainer doesn't feel they need to be continuously separated nor do I need to crate and rotate. The dogs are getting along well most of the time. The fights have always had specific triggers (usually related to Tessa's pain or not feeling well). They don't dislike or hate each other, I need to control the triggers. I am going to follow her advice.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> I Does anybody know anybody any good websites where I can find some good puzzles for them?? She recommended puzzles and said they would be a good way to mentally stimulate them as well


One game my doggies enjoy is when I hide one treat under one of three cups. I place the cups into various rooms. Each dog takes a turn. After the command "such/find" is given, they first have to find the cup, then decide which one has the treat under it. Both, Sophie and Max love the game.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

KSdogowner said:


> One game my doggies enjoy is when I hide one treat under one of three cups. I place the cups into various rooms. Each dog takes a turn. After the command "such/find" is given, they first have to find the cup, then decide which one has the treat under it. Both, Sophie and Max love the game.



That sounds GREAT!! I will get some small plastics cups tomorrow (all I have are heavy glass ones) and teach that to them tomorrow night. Thanks!!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

That really sucks. I'm curious why you keep telling the hospital that they are dog bites, or that they are from YOUR dogs? In our area, one report and the dog is seized and euth'd. I don't think you want that to happen to your dogs...


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

That's isn't how it works here. Especially since the bites were from my OWN dogs and not directed at me. I wasn't worried at all the first time (it wasn't until it was over and AC was on the way to my house that I remembered I had lost Dharma's rabies certificate) the second time, I did ask the nurse (who I knew) not to report it because I was worried about another ticket (not because I was worried about my dog) but she is one of those super anal type A types and wouldn't NOT do it. 

Here, even if your dog bites someone else as long as it is not a serious bite- they don't even take the dog. If shots are up to date they home quarantine. I don't know about repeated bites or how many times it would have to happen. I know the AC officer told me because it was MY dog, I was breaking up a fight and there was no sign of aggression against me there is actually no record of "dangerous dog" being kept. They are only keeping the records for the health department to track rabies. Both of them have flat out told me my dogs are in NO danger. 

I did want to come up with a different story for the second bite (the first bite I needed to tell the truth to get the correct antibiotics) but I honestly couldn't come up with a believable story to explain the lacerations and where they were on my hand and wrist. Unless I was a complete spaz, cutting myself while cooking just wasn't going to work and not at 12:30 in the morning. They would have thought I was doing something illegal or something. Plus, I knew I couldn't have them sewing it up tightly and risk it getting infected. It needed to be sutured but it needed to be closed loosely so it could drain. It is always tricky to close dog bites due to the increase risk of infection. If I had told another story I would have had about 4 stitches in my palm and at least 2 in my wrist and probably ended up with cellulitis. I was really in a no win situation.


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## Mom2Shaman (Jun 17, 2011)

I ran into barbed wire once and had to get an update on tetanus and antibotics. Well, see, our cat had been attacked by another and was very upset and in pain (he was older). I checked him for wounds and then immediately ran into some unclean barbed wire. Hmmmm. Not that anyone here would care about a cat or barbed wire for that matter. Our county doesn't give dogs very much wiggle room.

On another note, are you doing any pain management on Tessa? My older boy was getting snappy with the pup. 1/8 of a Tramadol twice a day and he's back to being a happy boy. He has a large tumor and some arthritis. He's in his decline so a little pain management is merciful.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The two dogs will never get along at this point. They will get into it every time there is no supervision to intervene. This is same sex aggression and dominance issues. It will no go away until The younger one has broken the older one. You are going to have to keep them separate unless you are personally there and focused on them. I think a couple others have said this also....behavoir mod or training is not going to work. I have two females with same situation, 2 years old and 7 years old, and I do behavoiral training professionally. I can never let the two interact unsupervised. If there was another way, I would use it myself...lol and I have been around for a minute.
Good Luck


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

AgileGSD said:


> With mine, the fights started off as scuffles but went to injury causing. The fighting became more violent every time because with each fight, they got better at fighting.


Yes, exactly how it happened here. At first they sounded and looked horrifying, but other than a lot of slobber and the occasional nick or small puncture, there were no injuries. Over a span of 6 years, the last attack left two very bloody and mud covered (it occured along a fence line after a horrific rain storm) dogs. My smaller female, 20 lbs lighter than the attacker, had multiple injuries and punctures and despite heavy pain meds, gentle wound cleaning, and antibiotics to fight off infections, she would lay on her dog bed in a x-pen in the house whimpering for the first few days in pain. If we hadn't been there, she would've been killed, no doubt about it. My bigger girl had her upside down along the fence and was on top of her just tearing into her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whatever you do, do not say it was some other dog, or a stray dog. You will find yourself on the wrong side of rabies vaccination shots, and they have been known to cause serious side effects including blindness, siezures, and nervous system issues.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

I have skimmed over this thread and the other and what I don't get is why the rescue is allowing this dog to stay in your home without a strict crate and rotate schedule?

They are liable for any medical bills that were to occur with the foster and/or the personal dog if injuries occur during a fight. 

And a trainer who says they do not need a strict crate and rotate schedule in this scenario is crazy! 

I would NOT allow access to each other, ever. Not even supervised. You are actually setting these dogs up to fail by allowing them to be together, as well as ensuring another fight occurs. Not to mention the detriment you are doing to your personal dog as she is young and learning to choose fight over flight. 

Sorry if this hits a sore spot but the rescue is doing a disservice to both you dogs and yourself. And you, as the foster and owner, need to step up and realize that this is a foster! Hopefully just a temporary guest in your home until adoption. Integration is not necessary. Unless your intention was to keep her I would reconsider.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Valreegrl, did you miss the part where Tessa is 10 years old and has a multitude of health issues? It is hard enough to find a puppy a home, let alone a poor senior. The judgements that can be seen in your post are completely off the mark and unfair to the OP.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ShenzisMom said:


> Valreegrl, did you miss the part where Tessa is 10 years old and has a multitude of health issues? It is hard enough to find a puppy a home, let alone a poor senior. The judgements that can be seen in your post are completely off the mark and unfair to the OP.


I would have to disagree with this. I had fostered doberman that was starting fights in my house. He NEVER should have been left in our home for as long as he was. He came from a quiet home with only his owner to a house with a cat (that he wanted to eat), 3 dogs, 2 teenagers. It was all WAY over his threshhold and his anxiety skyrocketed. It escalated to the point that the last time he lit into Jax, she sent him the vet for stitches. She developed fear aggression that I'm still dealing with.

As a responsible rescue, and I know Tessa is with one, it is their responsibility to put the dog in a home that is suitable. That doesn't mean that Dharma's Mom is incompetent. It simply means this might not be the right home for Tessa due to other circumstances.

What Valreegirl said was VERY valid. And this dog isn't going to be "rehomed" in the traditional sense. Tessa is WITH a rescue. It's a matter of finding a foster home that may be better suited for her. Sometimes, that is the best solution for all involved.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

DharmasMom said:


> I had a long talk with the trainer from VGSR tonight. She is in NoVA so she couldn't come to my house but I went into great detail about everything that has been going on since I got Tessa and she asked a lot of questions. She feels (and it makes A LOT of sense) that the biggest problem I am having is Dharma does not get enough exercise. She has WAY too much energy for Tessa and is always in play, play, play mode. She then tires Tessa out, gets too exuberant or rough with her and Tessa reacts. A fight ensues.
> 
> Dharma obviously needs her exercise increased. That is extremely difficult right now with both of them on house arrest until the 12th so she suggested to do as much mental stimulation as possible. I taught them both hide and seek tonight. Tessa caught on MUCH quicker but Dharma still learned pretty quick and with in 10 minutes I had both of them searching for treats all over the living room and foyer. Dharma also did several sets of puppy push up (she wasn't so crazy about that- I think I got the equivalent of several doggy eye rolls). We also reinforced the training Dharma has already had and practiced, practiced, practiced. Even Tessa to practice her sit, downs, paw and stays. I think it has helped they seem more settled tonight. I have several training books I have bought. I think I will work on different tricks each night. Depending on what Tessa is able to do, I am even going to teach her some new tricks. Does anybody know anybody any good websites where I can find some good puzzles for them?? She recommended puzzles and said they would be a good way to mentally stimulate them as well.
> 
> The trainer doesn't feel they need to be continuously separated nor do I need to crate and rotate. The dogs are getting along well most of the time. The fights have always had specific triggers (usually related to Tessa's pain or not feeling well). They don't dislike or hate each other, I need to control the triggers. I am going to follow her advice.


 
And if she is wrong????? You are risking the lives of both dogs by not heeding what they have done and the probablity of another fight....it is not worth it IMO....

Lee


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> And if she is wrong????? You are risking the lives of both dogs by not heeding what they have done and the probablity of another fight....it is not worth it IMO....
> 
> Lee


 
Good point! Is the risk worth it? Something that you have to ask yourself.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

ShenzisMom said:


> Valreegrl, did you miss the part where Tessa is 10 years old and has a multitude of health issues? It is hard enough to find a puppy a home, let alone a poor senior. The judgements that can be seen in your post are completely off the mark and unfair to the OP.


I read it, and unfortunately, it's true. HOWEVER, this is not the right foster if the rescue's intent is that this may be permanent. I am sure the OP is not purposely setting this scenario up, but I am also sure that she needs to realize that this situation is not the best. 

Sadly, foster homes are few and far between....and if this were my dog in rescue I would either be looking for another rescue, having the OP sign a strict crate and rotate contract, or removing the dog and making an even harder decision. 

Think about the quality of life here. Either this poor dog (both dogs really) have to live half her life (what's left) in the crate or have to continuously be uneasy waiting for the next blowup.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Even if the dogs do not get hurt in another fight, the stress of living in that environment where they are always on edge is HARD on them. Poor Baron was a basket case by the time they finally moved him. It was incredibly unfair to him. 

These fights will not stop. I wish I could say that they would but in my experience they escalate. We have 3 females and two can not be left alone together. The fight that sent Sierra for stitches happened right in front of me. They work themselves up so they don't need a "trigger".


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## Xenomorphic (Jun 28, 2011)

My dog have squabbled over food and I never leave them alone at feeding times. The older is on medication that makes her hungry a lot of the time. I use baby gates to keep them apart at night but they still have a whole room to themselves and plenty of space.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I am glad your all ok and it was not worse. I wish you luck in dealing with this, it has to be hard on all.


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