# Harness, fur saver...which do you use and why?



## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

So I'm watching youtube and in a lot of the tie back videos I'm seeing I notice the dog is either on a fur-saver or harness...with the pulling against the tie back I'd really worry about the dog injuring his/her throat/neck. Why that kind of collar? Why not train on a harness for that? What is the reasoning behind the fur saver for this training? I'd imagine that the harness allows you to use (what I imagine a tie back is for) the dogs full pull and really try to get at the toy without fear of getting hurt? 

I'm trying to see all this before we do it- I want to see different methods. Our trainer didn't mind that I used a harness when we did our evaluation, he just said not to use it for the obedience training.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Depends on the dog, and what the trainer wants to achieve. Your trainer will let you know what equipment Sabo will need. 

Some very high threshold dogs will be worked on a prong to hype them up more.
Some very handler sensitive dogs that have learned that pulling on a leash is bad need to be worked in a harness.

Some dogs will do fine with an agitation collar, or even a fur saver - depends on what specific reaction the trainer is looking to get from the dog.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Got it. I wasn't sure what was used or why...had no problems training my other dog with a prong (though I admit, it was laziness, we walked him with it, never transitioned to a flat collar) and it didn't bother me. Now that I know more, I'm a bit more hesitant to do anything like that.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

And I am assuming here- correct me if I"m wrong...

I can still train him that a flat collar is for "loose leash walking" and whatever we use for training is for training---this way I can nicely walk my dog around the neighborhood with a flat leash collar, but when we go to training he "knows" that a harness/prong/fursaver is for training...right? Our friend that works with the same trainer has his dog using a bark collar at home however, in training she has no reservations about barking when needed.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Yes, correct. Dogs are smart! They know the difference between good leash manners when walking around the neighborhood, and what is expected from them during training. 

Almost all of Gryff's OB was done off leash - he has a very high pack drive and ball drive, so he was just so happy to work. In protection he pulls like a maniac - the trainer we had from a few weeks ago took over line-handling for me when we were working a new helper, and the ex-military, national level helper got dragged down the field by my loose-leash walking dog.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

That's awesome! Since a lot of Sabos training was done off leash in the yard with a combo of toys and treats, he looks at me like I'm evil when I leash him and try to do Ob drills :/ grrrr lol 


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I train 2 heels. Focussed heel = Foose, Tactical Heel = "walk" at heel without the focus. Use the tactical heel on walks or any time I need, Foose I use on the field. That way when you want to just go for a walk wether the leash is on or not you just give the "heel" command and the dog sticks by your side until given the break command. I taught foose with +R and tactical heel with +puinishment/+R.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

When back tied, generally speaking I use a harness if I want their head free and if I'm working on barking... An agitation collar if I'm working on grips, targeting, or want more control over their head. A prong if we are working on aggression. also do it all on a fursaver sometimes.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fursaver or chain collar on a dead ring are the only one allowed in trialing(except for the BH). 
The dog may be wearing a variety of collars and a harness at any given time during training,and hooked up to a couple lines as well. 
Handling two lines and knowing when to use which one takes some skill and experience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have two harnesses I use for bitework, mostly for a backtie. Nikon always wore a harness until he was about 2 years but now I just work new dogs on collars unless there's a reason for a harness, just less work putting on gear and I like control of the head. Some dogs seem to choke out sooner or won't bark as freely on a collar so a harness may be appropriate. I always have all my gear along (two different styles of harness, fur savers, prong collars, thick agitation collar) and just grab whatever is appropriate based on the training session. Most times that's a prong collar on the dead ring.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Using a prong collar on the dead ring---wont that "correct" the dog instead of getting them to bark? We used a harness to get him to bark and then tossed the rag closer as a reward for him to bite.

Thanks for all the awesome infor!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Using a prong collar on the dead ring---wont that "correct" the dog instead of getting them to bark?


One might use a prong on the dead ring in training for a more advanced dog and very high-drive dogs, for control, or high-threshold dogs to cause agitation and frustration to get them to bark and bring out more power. And some dogs will bark their head off no matter what collar they have on! 

Again, it all depends on what people are working on, what level of training their dog is at, and the dog itself - moreso than working on obedience, where scripted behaviours are taught, protection is about bringing out some inner, natural behaviours in a specific context, and molding and rewarding the behaviour though subtle manipulations. 

Lots of tools in a trainer's tool box to achieve this - and no two dogs are alike. Beginner dogs often start out on a harness to encourage pulling and barking - when the desired behaviour is well understood and the dog shows lots of commitment and power, then different collars can be introduced to now couple the power with control. You'll see lots of pics of people working their dog on a harness and a prong, handling two lines - on line on the harness or agitaton collar, one line on the prong - encouraging pulling during one phase of the exercise, using the line on the prong to give a correction if needed for another part of the exercise.


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