# Dealing with Resource Guarding -- not fun -- and apparently *I* am the problem.



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sorry that this is rather convoluted!  Pick things apart if easier, but all advice/suggestions are appreciated!!!

Dogs: Two littermates, males, one neutered, one intact, 15 months. I've had one since 11 weeks (Bailey - intact), been thru a lot of obed training, other guy (Tucker) came in when he was 10 months, no formal training.

There have been issues cropping up lately with Bailey resource guarding me.

Awhile back, I might have said there were no warning signs, but I've learned that there are and am better about recognizing them -- but I still can't see it 100% of the time. Occasionally he lashes out when I least expect it.

I downloaded the ebook "Mine!" and read about 75% -- I had to skim as I didn't have a ton of time. Great book, but does seem to focus more so on food-guarding and that isn't my problem. I did learn a few things and will finish reading it. (Isn't my problem because I feed them separate, but that's another post.)

So for NOW -- here's where I am. Please give me feedback or point out flaws in my handling of this, please.

--I'm giving Bailey more attention and especially giving him *tons* of praise when I show Tucker attn and Bailey is still/no reaction. (This does seem to be working so far, but is too early to say..)

--I'm having Bailey drag a leash around the house like he's a dang pup again. I'm doing this because breaking up squirmishes between two large dogs, I've found, is NOT fun. In any scenario I'm concerned could be an issue, I'm tethering him to me. Then praising when there is no clear reaction. (His "reaction" begins with a totally still stance & stare, which if not caught, turns into hackling at the shoulder blades and if STILL not caught, will hackle down the entire length of his back.) 

Until I went back to the leash & collar, I had to pull Bailey away by the scruff. (I normally don't have collars on any of the dogs at home.) I decided that was a recipe for future disaster and put collars back on them both for now. Since Tucker does not pursue (or hasn't yet,) after an altercation, it is far more manageable to pull Bailey away from the situation via leash.

I do not want to risk Bailey lashing out at *me.* He has never done so, never growled at me, never challenged me in any way. Even after the worst of the altercations, no reaction to me. I've simply pulled him away, trying to put something to his left side (cabinet, solid object,) and me to his right, out of eyesight of Tucker and holding him still there until able to diffuse the situation. (If bf is at home, he might re-direct Tucker -- if not, I park Bailey in another room, whatever I have to do.)

I know, this is just management. I need to get to work on solving the core issue, but I'm not exactly sure how to do that.

Tucker is no angel, though. He is a very hard-playing dog and he will sometimes egg Bailey on like no other. Bailey keeps his cool exceedingly well in these situations. This is actually what makes me believe even more that is about *me* -- they can be outside together for an hour or more and never fight. (I watch out the window.. I sneak around between the windows at the back of the house. They work it out. When Bailey doesn't want Tucker's crazy play-advances, he turns his head and ignores him. *There has never been a dog sqirmish without me there*.)

So, then, this is about ME. 

I don't want to give up Tucker, but if I can't make progress with this, it may really be best to find a home for him so he doesn't have to worry about a jealous dog. 

I should throw in that this is no issue with the two other dogs I have, that were here before Bailey came into the scene. Bailey *did* attempt to throw a jealousy fit with my old, blind dog and that met with the harshest reaction I've ever shown to any dog in my life. It wasn't repeated on his part. He's left her alone ever since. The other girl; well, she takes care of herself and puts up with no nonsense from him and there isn't an issue there, either.

Sorry this was so long. I actually left out a ton of detail... :crazy:

On a last note, I do plan to neuter Bailey. It's actually been the game plan for the last month or so. I just haven't been able to line up the financial end with taking the time off work end. It will happen in the next month or so. I'm not banking on that being a fix to what we're going thru necessarily.

Appreciate your feedback.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> I don't want to give up Tucker, but if I can't make progress with this, it may really be best to find a home for him so he doesn't have to worry about a jealous dog.


This is the dog you sort of took in, out of a bad situation, intending to find him a good home... right? Have you been pursuing that, or did you decide to keep him?

The problem may resolve somewhat after Bailey is neutered, but it may not. Personally, I have found that same-sex littermates are the worst, whether neutered or not. 

Personally, and this is just me, I don't want to have to "manage" two dogs that want to fight. It's just too stressful for me, and not the kind of lifestyle I want to live. If I were in your situation, I'd re-home Tucker, since that was your original intent. But that is just me. I want peace at all costs. 

However, there are ways of dealing with this problem, that can be successful. Since I personally haven't had success doing it, I will defer to the advice of people who have. I would simply say that, as the fights break out around *you*, and there doesn't seem to be any other trigger, I would think things should be fairly straightforward to deal with.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Freestep said:


> This is the dog you sort of took in, out of a bad situation, intending to find him a good home... right? Have you been pursuing that, or did you decide to keep him?....


No, I haven't pursued that at all. The guy made his way into my home and heart and thoughts of re-homing went by the wayside. 

If this were an every day issue, it would be far easier to make a decision and work harder to find a home for Mr Tucker. But, it comes and goes in "waves," so to speak. We can have days of no issues at all. The two boys licking each other's ears.. happy, happy... Then there is an altercation and I have to be really vigilent for several days until hormones calm back down.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I raised two littermates who were high drive and who both resorce guarded me like this. I found a good trainer (who cursed them and me occassionally, as they were tough). I did train them with the e-collar and had good control over them without the collar later. The worst time was around 2yo, they were always arguing over me but it was more "talking" than physical. it got better as they matured.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think once you get neutering out of the way you may see some positive changes. 
I'd hold off on rehoming decisions until at least a month - 2mos. after the neuter to see.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Freestep said:


> ...The problem may resolve somewhat after Bailey is neutered, but it may not. Personally, I have found that same-sex littermates are the worst, whether neutered or not....


Agreed.
You have two semi-adolecents and being dogs, they do not have "brother" relationships. They hit a point where they will challenge each other for "pack status"
Dogs aren't born Alphas, they are created that way by their owners. In a feral pack of dogs, they have to fight for that role.
I would work on the nuetering, see if that helps and try to see if there is a trainer/behaviorist that can come to your home and help you establish yourself in a situation where the competiton is lessened. Your attention needs to possibly be made a lower valued object.
It's not so much jealousy, but Bailey doesn't want to share you. 
Pet one dog at a time, not both. If you can, feed them exactly the same side by side placing the bowls down at the same time. 
When you leave and come back ignore both dogs for about five minutes and don't engage affection like petting just because one just leans into you. Set the terms of affection on your terms not theirs. Usually the more submissive one will seek out the affection first, the more dominant male will be more reserved. 
Personally if they are sleeping with you, I'd stop it. And if just one is, definitely stop it.
Whatever you do for one of your dogs, you probably should do exactly the same for the other one.
Just my opinion, and hope that helps.
(I don't have littermates but I have a GSD and a JRTX and they are both females  which is definitely worse than two males.)

The nuetering will help after a month or so because of the smell of testostorone (sp?)...will disapate after that. One dog definitely is smelling different than the other one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Bailey, your original dog , is the one who is the aggressor.
you "--I'm giving Bailey more attention and especially giving him *tons* of praise when I show Tucker attn and Bailey is still/no reaction"

by doing this you are reinforcing what you do not want , and disturbing a balance between the two dogs. 

put some value to that attention -- you want it -- earn it .
get out and do some obedience control work with each dog independently.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Rehome the second dog....you have an accident waiting to happen. All problems can't be fixed, sometimes it's the dynamics of the dogs, sometimes it's the ability of the owner, often it is a combination of both. Nevertheless, this sounds like a situation that will explode one day and neutering is not going to prevent it. Dogs don't fight a little less once they start.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Okay, I had to find my post from awhile back. 

I had this same problem not long after I brought Tessa home. She started resource guarding me and was going after Dharma. NO WAY was I going to have that. Anyway, this is what I did. 



> The way I handled the resource guarding was I started by sitting on the couch and having both dogs sit in front of me with my legs between them. I would pet both of them at the same time. If Tessa so much as gave a low growl, ALL attention immediately stopped and I got up and walked off. I did this several time over the course of a day. It didn't take her long to figure out that if she acted out, I left and she didn't get any more attention. She was quickly learning to be quiet.
> 
> After that I graduated to sitting or standing in front of them while they were in a sit and petting one at a time. Making sure each dog got plenty of pets and attention. Again, if Tessa acted up, ALL attention stopped and I walked away. Again she quickly got the idea that it was in her best interest to not act up. She also learned that even though I was going to show Dharma attention, she would get some too.



It worked REALLY well. Within a week both dogs could sit in front of me at the same time for attention with no problem. Both dogs has been altered by that point though. 

Good luck!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I think once you get neutering out of the way you may see some positive changes. I'd hold off on rehoming decisions until at least a month - 2mos. after the neuter to see.


:thumbup:I'd do this first. Carmen said to work with the dogs independently and I agree, but you also need to have control when they're together. 

Ours were trained to work (basic obedience) independently and in tandem. Heeling was the hardest, they both fought for inside position. We weren't looking for perfection in the sits, down/stay etc., (good thing, it could be pretty sloppy!) the whole idea was no matter how close they were to each other, the handler called the shots. This transferred over really well into basic living skills at home. I think I have an old video, I'll post it if I can find it.

The other thing I did was teach them to take turns. Getting pets, playing ball, licking an ice cream cone etc. Annie's turn, Harley's turn, back and forth, over and over. (and that's what I say, "dog name, turn" )

I usually agree with Cliff btw, but not this time. I've watched your video's and read your posts. The dogs are just entering a different stage in life where they're going to get a little more serious and demanding, but I think if anyone can handle it, you can.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is true - Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals

I'll tell ya this, too. When we bring in foster dogs, we do not change how we pay attention to our existing dogs, but we also don't pay tons of attention to the new dog.
The new dog gets far less "privileges" than our existing dogs, and has more "down time" in a crate, etc.

If we changed up how we did things, there'd be a lot of problems, or if we showed more attention to the foster, for sure there would be problems. 
One of mine will wait until our backs are turned to "get even" with a foster, so we are always hypervigilant to that - plus if we scolded our dog, for instance, he may take it out on a foster later.

Dogs do not have equals, really, unless many of them are "omegas" or the least of the pack. Dogs are social climbers and even laying or sitting closer to their owner (leader) "counts", in their book. 

Dogs will fight over resources: space, food, treats, toys, etc. ANYthing can be a resource - space, in a multiple dog pack, is a premium resource.

Trust me on this  I live w/9 dogs - peaceably for the most part - and sometimes up to 12 dogs here at once. We have crates and gates to help us maintain control. 
It is tiring :crazy:



carmspack said:


> Bailey, your original dog , is the one who is the aggressor.
> you "--I'm giving Bailey more attention and especially giving him *tons* of praise when I show Tucker attn and Bailey is still/no reaction"
> 
> by doing this you are reinforcing what you do not want , and disturbing a balance between the two dogs.
> ...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I hope I'm wrong.....lol


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Wow, that would be hard to live with. I'm sure glad I took your guys advise and got my second dog of the opposite sex instead of getting two females like I originally planned.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> ....I usually agree with Cliff btw, but not this time. I've watched your video's and read your posts. The dogs are just entering a different stage in life where they're going to get a little more serious and demanding, but I think if anyone can handle it, you can.


Thank you very much. It's been quite the ride. :laugh:



DharmasMom said:


> Okay, I had to find my post from awhile back.
> 
> I had this same problem not long after I brought Tessa home. She started resource guarding me and was going after Dharma. NO WAY was I going to have that. Anyway, this is what I did.....
> 
> ...


Thank you. Your post was actually one of the ones I read when I did a search about this. So has the issue mostly resolved for you now? 



carmspack said:


> Bailey, your original dog , is the one who is the aggressor.
> you "--I'm giving Bailey more attention and especially giving him *tons* of praise when I show Tucker attn and Bailey is still/no reaction"
> 
> by doing this you are reinforcing what you do not want , and disturbing a balance between the two dogs.
> ...


Ok, just want to be sure to explain myself right. I reward Bailey with praise when I'm petting Tucker and Bailey is just sitting there and being a good boy, showing no reaction or interest. So Bailey is rewarded for *not* having a reaction. Is this what you thought I meant? If so, I'm confused. :crazy: I've just started doing this, from advice from the book Mine! and it isn't over the top... I mean a nice head pat for Tucker and a good boy, then praising Bailey.



Nikitta said:


> Wow, that would be hard to live with. I'm sure glad I took your guys advise and got my second dog of the opposite sex instead of getting two females like I originally planned.


I don't want to overstate this thing.  I don't live in fear, I don't have to live in worry. It isn't every day or even every week, although once there has been a squirmish, there are heightened hormones for a day or two where I am extremely vigilent. 

~~

Thanks for the info and advice! I'm all ears and appreciate it all.

@Cliffson -- I'm not ditchin the boy just yet.  Been thru too much to get this far. 

I will follow the suggestions to wait until a month or two past neutering.

This whole thing wouldn't be as hard if it were constant. But it isn't -- they also play a lot, lay down and lick each others' ears, etc. I see this as *my* handling being more at fault than anything, so I want to be sure I'm doing the right things.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm curious: what is the difference between a correction and denying attention, as far as the dog is concerned? Wouldn't both be equally terrible to the offender? I'm wondering because msvette2u is saying that her dog would retaliate later for a scolding. And chelle, you said that Bailey was good to your older girl after that one severe correction. 

Is it just a case of different personalities? Or is it something more? I've always been the type to correct aggression, as in KNOCK IT OFF NOW, and I've honestly never tried to be more 'diplomatic' or gentle about it.
I would think that a firm correction is kinder to the dog - this is the rule, period. Whereas, trying to smooth out feelings, you might send the wrong message?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> I'm curious: what is the difference between a correction and denying attention, as far as the dog is concerned? Wouldn't both be equally terrible to the offender? I'm wondering because msvette2u is saying that her dog would retaliate later for a scolding. And chelle, you said that Bailey was good to your older girl after that one severe correction.
> 
> Is it just a case of different personalities? Or is it something more? I've always been the type to correct aggression, as in KNOCK IT OFF NOW, and I've honestly never tried to be more 'diplomatic' or gentle about it.
> I would think that a firm correction is kinder to the dog - this is the rule, period. Whereas, trying to smooth out feelings, you might send the wrong message?


To answer your initial question -- I don't know.  I would be inclined to say it is dog-specific.

I know I have tried the ignore thing at times with good results. I simply turned my back on them both as they were escalating to get to me. As in remove the problem (me!) and things go to normal. I haven't tried it Dharmasmom's way, but I am going to.

Bailey is rather soft, I've learned, when it comes to correction. I didn't know what that meant before, but he's taught me. He received that exceedingly harsh correction because the dog I was speaking of is older, mostly blind and there just cannot be any nonsense whatsoever in regard to her. None. Zero tolerance thing. He received that when he growled and nipped at her for being too close to me. Actually, it was the second time he did -- and drew a little bit of blood -- that that I came down so hard. I'm not going to go into further detail there, but will say it was a very harsh, very hard reaction from me. I was furious, I will admit. That is my beloved oldest girl and no dog will scare her and make her squeal in fear like he did that day. 

That was months and months +++ ago. Bailey has never again tested anything when it comes to her. She bumps around all over the house, bumps into him and the other dogs all the time and they are required to ignore it. He has no reaction when she's on my lap or I'm doing anything with her. It would appear that it only took one severe reprimand for him to learn that lesson. He totally ignores her other than licking her pee in the yard. 

I can't do that for this situation, though, because Tucker is the problem at times as well. (eta -- I don't want to ever have to correct a dog like that again either.)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I've always been the type to correct aggression, as in KNOCK IT OFF NOW, and I've honestly never tried to be more 'diplomatic' or gentle about it.


This is what I do - there's no physical contact at all, but a very loud/deep "KNOCK IT OFF!", or "CUT IT OUT!" and everyone's in trouble - not just one or the other. 
Now of course there's exceptions but two young/healthy dogs (and not one that's disabled or senior) then we do intervene at the first growl.
When the energy changes during play, too, they are separated.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I live with 3 dogs. One a 13 year old wolfx neutered but didn't change much, he is a very dominant dog. A 5 year old intract male GSD and an 18 month old very recently spayed APBT. I also have dogs here for boarding and training etc, a LOT, everything from intact males to spayed females. I REQUIRE my dogs to get along, period. There is no exceptions. If someone starts something, everyone involved is in trouble, a high level K9 trainer told me to do this and it has worked wonderfully. 

Judge(GSD) and Hobie(wolfX) get along ok. They primarily ignore each other because they are both dominant males. Hobie sometimes will growl at Judge when he walks by him, very rarely. In that situation, I correct Hobie and tell Judge to leave it. They respect me and do as told. 

Resource guarding is not allowed at all. It is met with a harsh correction verbal or otherwise and that is the end of that. Some things require a little harshness and resource guarding is one of those things IMHO. 

I personally would be rewarding Bailey for NOT reacting when you pet Tucker, he shouldn't be that involved in you petting Tucker. I would tell his butt to go lie down and pet Tucker then be done with it, if Bailey reacts, give his butt a correction for it. IMHO by praising Bailey for not reacting after you pet Tucker, you could be reinforcing his bad behavior. Is he giving Tucker the stink eye? A dirty look etc.? That's another thing, I have a Terrier and they are notorious for the Terrier Stare, that gets corrected the second I notice it.

IMHO, ALL fights start with a dirty look. Correct the dirty look and maintain control and no fights should happen.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I am also someone who would stop giving Bailey any attention for not reacting when you pay attention to Tucker. It is none of Bailey's business who you give attention to, when you give that attention, where you give that attention or how you give that attention. 

Remember, too, that there is no shame in saying that a dog that you didn't specifically want and didn't ask for is not a good fit in your home. Loving Tucker as much as you do might mean letting him go. There is nothing wrong with that and it surely doesn't mean you have failed him at all. It just means that your role in his life was getting him ready for the home that he is meant to be in.
Sheilah


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sorry you're having episodes, Chelle. Not fun at all.

What I do know is that if he does anything while petting Tucker, you correct him. I don't know if they are capable of understanding what a reward for non-reaction is actually for. So as Carmen said, giving him praise at that time may actually backfire, because he may think that praise is being given, and he is gonna grab himself the lion's share. 

Am I making sense? It has been a very long, after-moving-work-filled weekend. Don't ask about the cabinet falling onto the toilet and cracking the whole darned thing into pieces... toilet now useless and needs replacing...don't ask. :crazy:


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Chelle - I have every confidence that you will make this work. It does not sound like you are dealing with two dogs that can't stand the sight of each other. Rather, you have a dog who sometimes gets snarky when the other gets attention. This is completely fixable and it sounds like you already have a good grasp on how to make it work.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I hope I'm wrong.....lol


*OFF TOPIC WARNING*
Ok, we'll allow this ONE time....but, bear in mind what it does to the pysches of all the Cliff and Carmspack and a Select Few Others' Fan Club around here that admit to hanging on your words with eager anticipation if you guys are wrong. It kinda freaks us out. *grin*



(love youse guys' advice!)
*END OFF TOPIC WARNING*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LifeofRiley said:


> Chelle - I have every confidence that you will make this work. It does not sound like you are dealing with two dogs that can't stand the sight of each other. Rather, you have a dog who sometimes gets snarky when the other gets attention. This is completely fixable and it sounds like you already have a good grasp on how to make it work.


:thumbup:


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

chelle said:


> Thank you very much. It's been quite the ride. :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I will reiterate that when I was doing this it was always at planned times. I would have both dogs sit on either side of my leg and start petting both of them simultaneously. At the FIRST hint of aggression, a stare, a low growl, ANYTHING then ALL attention stopped. I got up and walked away from the area. They were not allowed to follow. Like, I said, it only took a few tries before Tessa quickly go the message that when she did this, then all attention ended. Same thing when we graduated to petting one dog at a time. First sign of aggression, I walked off. Again, she caught on pretty quick. Then we graduated to standing. Same thing. Again, Tessa caught on quick. After that though, I always made sure that if one dog got attention, so did the other. But I never had anymore problem with resource guarding.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Dogs will accept corrections from dogs of the opposite sex - but may not tolerate them from dogs of the same sex. So the reaction to the blind dog may have been different if it was another male. 
Your guys are still young so the behavior may escalate as they reach maturity  I hope you are able to manage it. But it's good that you're recognizing and addressing it now.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

VonKromeHaus said:


> IMHO, ALL fights start with a dirty look. Correct the dirty look and maintain control and no fights should happen.


I believe this. I would never wait for anything to get past that point before correcting. And I'd go even further, to look at the behavior that led to the dirty look, and correct for that too.

I have a related problem myself, it's my puppy and another family member's dog. The other dog is a terrible fear biter (typical story of an early dog park experience scarring the dog for life) and for these two to get along, I have be viligant with my puppy. He was giving the other dog a wide berth on the occasions that he got a snapped at or pinned, but then I put my foot down and said any fighting goes through me first. So now that my puppy has forgotten the prior warnings, he's the one to get corrected because he's so interested in sniffing the other dog. Which is more than enough to set this other dog off. I have it under control now, but it means never letting my eyes off them when they're together. Which is only a few times a year, thankfully, lol.

I love the videos that you've posted showing your two dogs playing, and to my non-expert view, they seem to really enjoy each other. I don't think you should have any trouble making them realize that this is unacceptable behavior - since it sounds like they're both to blame. I know I also have a "don't wanna talk about it" correction in my past...lol, at least it's good to know that you have it in you! I'd never repeat mine either, but never say never...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> .... Am I making sense? It has been a very long, after-moving-work-filled weekend. Don't ask about the cabinet falling onto the toilet and cracking the whole darned thing into pieces... toilet now useless and needs replacing...don't ask. :crazy:


Yes you are making sense.  Sounds like you are having a wonderful move! Just think... it'll be so much better very soon. Well, after a new toilet anyway.



sit said:


> ..... Remember, too, that there is no shame in saying that a dog that you didn't specifically want and didn't ask for is not a good fit in your home. Loving Tucker as much as you do might mean letting him go. There is nothing wrong with that and it surely doesn't mean you have failed him at all. It just means that your role in his life was getting him ready for the home that he is meant to be in. Sheilah


You may be right and time will tell. I love him dearly, and I love him so much I can let him go to the proper home.



VonKromeHaus said:


> ... IMHO, ALL fights start with a dirty look. Correct the dirty look and maintain control and no fights should happen.


I have learned this is sure true and to recognize it. Only surprise along the way with that was that look may only last an instant and you best be ready... 



LifeofRiley said:


> Chelle - I have every confidence that you will make this work. It does not sound like you are dealing with two dogs that can't stand the sight of each other. Rather, you have a dog who sometimes gets snarky when the other gets attention. This is completely fixable and it sounds like you already have a good grasp on how to make it work.


Thank you for the faith. 



DharmasMom said:


> I will reiterate that when I was doing this it was always at planned times. I would have both dogs sit on either side of my leg and start petting both of them simultaneously. At the FIRST hint of aggression, a stare, a low growl, ANYTHING then ALL attention stopped. I got up and walked away from the area. They were not allowed to follow. Like, I said, it only took a few tries before Tessa quickly go the message that when she did this, then all attention ended. Same thing when we graduated to petting one dog at a time. First sign of aggression, I walked off. Again, she caught on pretty quick. Then we graduated to standing. Same thing. Again, Tessa caught on quick. After that though, I always made sure that if one dog got attention, so did the other. But I never had anymore problem with resource guarding.


Good. Great outcome! Gives me something to put in the playbook of the gameplan.



phgsd said:


> Dogs will accept corrections from dogs of the opposite sex - but may not tolerate them from dogs of the same sex. So the reaction to the blind dog may have been different if it was another male.
> Your guys are still young so the behavior may escalate as they reach maturity  I hope you are able to manage it. But it's good that you're recognizing and addressing it now.


I can manage it. Worse case scenario would be a rotate and crate, but I'm sure not going there anytime soon. We're nowhere near needing to go there at this point.



Blanketback said:


> .... I love the videos that you've posted showing your two dogs playing, and to my non-expert view, they seem to really enjoy each other. I don't think you should have any trouble making them realize that this is unacceptable behavior - since it sounds like they're both to blame. I know I also have a "don't wanna talk about it" correction in my past...lol, at least it's good to know that you have it in you! I'd never repeat mine either, but never say never...


They do enjoy one another much of the time. Admittedly, most of the crap starting is Bailey, but Tucks plays a role.....

Never say never.  True enough.

~~

Thanks for the advice about not showing Bailey the positive attn when giving Tucker attn, though I admit I am even more unsure now.  I think five? on this thread advised that, but I was taking that direction from the book "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson and that was her advice for counter-conditioning. It was seeming to show nice progress.

Hmmm.

Now it may make no difference in opinions and I'm curious to hear about that, but Bailey had my complete attn until Tucker came here. Then he was required to relinquish quite a bit of time. At risk of humanzing his "feelings," I can see where he might be pissy about that change in his life. That that change changed the dynamic of the pack and he didn't like it. At first it was great -- a new buddy! -- but once the true "competition" for mom's time and attn came about, he didn't like it/adjust to it all that well.

Bottom line, Bailey's entire existence revolves around me. He's been my constant sidekick since 11 weeks, we've gone thru four obedience classes, done a lot of work in and out of the house, he's been all over the city, trails, parks, etc and so on. He is my shadow & my buddy. Then here comes Tuckie, who I dearly love and Tuckie is wanting love, too. It is very hard -- my first allegience is to Bailey. This is surely influencing me in ways I may not even be recognizing. I find it very difficult to take any more time away from Bailey, as he's already lost so much. My guilty feelings are somewhere in the base of this issue, no doubt.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> I find it very difficult to take any more time away from Bailey, as he's already lost so much. My guilty feelings are somewhere in the base of this issue, no doubt.


Guilt is pretty useless, and can actually be counterproductive. I have seen a lot of people spoil dogs because they were "rescued" or came from a "bad situation", and they think that catering to the dog's every whim will somehow "fix" that. They don't ever want to discipline or correct the dog because he's had such a "hard life" until then. I know that's not you, I'm just saying, guilt can cause people to do rather silly things sometimes.

Having said that, I understand your feelings about taking time away from Bailey. That is why, if it were me, I'd rehome the newcomer, and get back to the lifestyle and relationship I had with my first dog. However, I also understand the attachment to Tucker.

I think you've gotten some good advice about how to deal with the situation. But I still think it's going to be a constant battle and you must remain ever vigilant. I know you said that the conflicts are rather few and far between, and the rest of the time they get along great. They probably get along great whenever you're not there. But when you are present and they are both vying for attention, it's a danger zone.

As I said, getting Bailey neutered may help de-escalate the situation, so if you're determined to keep Tucker, I'd make it a priority. It may or may not help, but it can't hurt. Remember it takes about 6 weeks for all the hormone to clear out of his system, so neutering is not a magic bullet.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Rehome the second dog....you have an accident waiting to happen. All problems can't be fixed, sometimes it's the dynamics of the dogs, sometimes it's the ability of the owner, often it is a combination of both. Nevertheless, this sounds like a situation that will explode one day and neutering is not going to prevent it. Dogs don't fight a little less once they start.





cliffson1 said:


> I hope I'm wrong.....lol


I have often agreed with you and enjoyed reading your advice to others. 

I did find your responses jumping the gun and I am surely being a touch emotional, but the "lol" isn't amusing to me. This is important in my life and my dogs' lives.

I've been guilty of telling others they should re-home, so I understand how quickly and easily people can jump to that conclusion.

Let's stop and think, though, about this idea of re-homing. Is it truly that easy? No. You go to Craigslist. Or you try a rescue, that is likely already overloaded. Or you try to get a rescue to ghost sponsor you. Or you go to Petfinder so a bunch of foreigners with their scams contact you. All options have their risks and are not easy. To recommend this so easily, before ever truly working thru various options, is, IMHO, careless and uncaring both. You, of all folks, surely have the knowledge to offer me that would be insightful for my attempts to make things more harmonious. Why do you discount me so quickly?

Tucker would not be in a better situation in any of the above. 

I am no expert, nor do I claim to be, but I'm trying to learn, trying to gain the knowledge that I need and people like you are the ones I normally try to glean that knowledge from. To be told so quickly that I should just rehome him is a slap in the face.



Freestep said:


> Guilt is pretty useless, and can actually be counterproductive. I have *seen a lot of people spoil dogs because they were "rescued" or came from a "bad situation", and they think that catering to the dog's every whim will somehow "fix" that*. They don't ever want to discipline or correct the dog because he's had such a "hard life" until then. I know that's not you, I'm just saying, guilt can cause people to do rather silly things sometimes.
> 
> Having said that, I understand your feelings about taking time away from Bailey. That is why, if it were me, I'd rehome the newcomer, and get back to the lifestyle and relationship I had with my first dog. However, I also understand the attachment to Tucker.
> 
> ...


I assure you, my guilt does NOT for a moment let Bailey slide. He is held to the highest standard in the house because he has had the most training.

It is not that I am determined to keep Tucker or not keep Tucker. It is simply that he is in the best place available right now and I love him enough that I will not risk him going anywhere unknown. People are not lining up at my door to adopt a mixed breed adolescent dog.

~~

I am sorry if I appear to be overly emotional here. I am looking for all the advice and discussion I can possibly get. Any viewpoint, any research, any book, any suggestion is appreciated very much.

Here are a couple of vids from tonight. 

*Outside, nightly ritual:*




 

*Inside, being goofy* and also being allowed a bit more lenience than normal, for the sake of a vid... and note the 'aggressive' Bails is the dude on his back on the floor. Twenty minutes later, roles were reversed and Tuckies was rolling on his back.




 

Do these dogs truly look hopeless enough to rehome??


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I gave you an honest assessment based on limited knowledge. My first concern is always the well being of the dogs involved. I still feel what I wrote is correct, but I hope for all involved that it works out. I don't make decisions based on emotions and hope is an emotion. I give advice on what I have found to be true more times than not. 
I tried to help you with my advice, it is not what you wanted to hear. I didn't realize I had to give an answer that would fit with your desires.....you definitely don't have to worry about advice from me in the future. To be chastised for being honest???? I can do without ....good luck on whatever happens!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I gave you an honest assessment based on limited knowledge. My first concern is always the well being of the dogs involved. I still feel what I wrote is correct, but I hope for all involved that it works out. I don't make decisions based on emotions and hope is an emotion. I give advice on what I have found to be true more times than not.
> *I tried to help you with my advice, it is not what you wanted to hear. I didn't realize I had to give an answer that would fit with your desires.....*you definitely don't have to worry about advice from me in the future. To be chastised for being honest???? I can do without ....good luck on whatever happens!


Ok. Your "honest assessment," without knowing me, my dogs or anything else, was to instantly suggest re-homing. Apparently this is based on what you have "_found to be true more times than not_." Would you not see this as a rather knee-jerk type of advice/reaction?

You did not attempt to help me -- you jumped to re-homing. I am not against re-homing in the right scenario and I've said that all along with this boy. 

It is not about what I _wish to hear_, nor about what _fits with my desires_. It is about what *I* can do in my home and how I may be (unknowlingly), feeding into the problems that have cropped up. 

I want to *solve* this thing, I want to work towards a resolution, I want to WORK ON THIS PROBLEM so I can keep both my boys. 

If I cannot properly do so, if I am incapable, if my boys are miserable and I have to crate/rotate, if I have to deal with all of that nonsense, then yes, I will re-home. I am not in any way ready just yet to admit that defeat -- so please, instead, help me with ideas and resources. Work with me. I love these dogs. Love them with all my heart and there is nothing I won't consider, nothing I won't try.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I am 100% sure that you can work through this. They really are no different then human siblings...there will be some jealousy, there will be some arguments, but in the end you are most important to them. Individual training and some group training can go a long way. You will learn when the behavior needs to be corrected and they will learn what is acceptable and not acceptable.


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## glg46 (Mar 26, 2012)

In the early 90's one of my females had an exceptional litter and I decided to keep 2 very high drive males for schutzhund training. All was well till they were about 10 mos old when the usual puppy games turned into full fledged fights. Here is what I did to correct it.
I put prong collars and 1ft traffic leads on each dog all day long. I always supervised them when they were together and the minute they went at it I gave each a very harsh correction with the collar and immidiately put them in their crates for at least an hour before letting them out again.
As the weeks went by the incidents diminished and I learned to read and anticipate when they were about to occur and a loud,stern HEY!!! would defuse the situation and send them running to their crates. I wish I could tell you that I was able to fix the problem but all I was able to do was manage it in a way that I was able to interrupt it before it got out of hand. Given the opportunity they would have gone at each other and I was never able to trust them together.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Once again, I love your videos  it's so nice to see dogs having fun together. I know that cliffson1's posts upset you, but you have to keep in mind that 2 large dogs in a full-on fight is serious business. I know people who have ended up with broken fingers because they stepped into the middle of their dogs' fight. Maybe I'm just old and jaded, but I would think it to be professional suicide to give any kind of advice about this just from some postings on the 'net. If this were in the Health forums, and a vet diagnosed something from a post, I'd think they were a quack. No, I'd know they were a quack! Suggesting rehoming is a responsible answer. That doesn't mean it's the right answer, though!

And his second post was hurtful to you, but how many of us have written something flippant, while truly meaning no harm? My own sister didn't speak to me for 6 months because of something sarcastic I'd written in an email. So now I don't ever email her, because my personality is just to easily misunderstood when it's just straight text on a page.

Anyhoo - I think you're giving Bailey too much attention. That video in the backyard? To me I see Tucker looking at you with happy anticipation, and Bailey looking at you with utter loving adoration. You are his world. And tethering him to you might reinforce that? I dunno, I'm no expert - and that's why I can spew out my ideas, lol. 

You are the Queen, and your home is your castle. Bailey isn't the Little Price and Tucker the servant: they are both mere serfs in your kingdom.
Remind them of that, lol.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I cannot in good conscience participate in what you want if I think there is a better alternative. Two adult GS fighting can be very dangerous to the dogs and even the owner. Twice, I have said I hope it works out for you. But in pursuit of all these options you will try, if you or one of the dogs get seriously hurt....you also bear the responsibility of that also. Your call.....Good Luck!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> Ok. Your "honest assessment," without knowing me, my dogs or anything else, was to instantly suggest re-homing. Apparently this is based on what you have "_found to be true more times than not_." Would you not see this as a rather knee-jerk type of advice/reaction?


Well, I don't see it as knee-jerk--I see it as honest feedback from someone who has been there, done that, and got the T-shirt. I know it's not the advice you were looking for, but it's a valid opinion nonetheless--and you asked for ALL advice and opinions!

Personally, having been through it myself (and I think Cliff said the same thing) I would feel terrible if we all encouraged you to keep the dogs together, and then a tragedy occurred. When two large, strong adult dogs get into a serious fight, not only can they hurt each other, but they can hurt YOU and anyone else who tries to break it up, and then you have vet bills, quarantine, possibly hospital bills, or in the worst case scenario, a lawsuit. It's absolutely heartbreaking, and if you think you have guilt NOW...

Anyway. You already know this, and you're looking for advice on how to safely keep them together. As long as you're willing to take responsibility and you think you can handle it if a serious fight breaks out, of course there are things you can do to manage the situation. But it will always be "management".

The boys play beautifully when there is nothing to fight over. I know you don't want to hear it, but I have seen this many times--dogs who appear to love each other, play together, sleep together, clean each others' ears, etc. It does not mean they won't fight. I have seen dogs fight one minute and lick each other's wounds the next. It is pretty bizarre and hard to believe unless you see it.

So, please don't get angry or offended. We are honestly looking out for you and your dogs' best interest.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Bailey, your original dog , is the one who is the aggressor.
> you "--I'm giving Bailey more attention and especially giving him *tons* of praise when I show Tucker attn and Bailey is still/no reaction"
> 
> by doing this you are reinforcing what you do not want , and disturbing a balance between the two dogs.
> ...





cliffson1 said:


> Rehome the second dog....you have an accident waiting to happen. All problems can't be fixed, sometimes it's the dynamics of the dogs, sometimes it's the ability of the owner, often it is a combination of both. Nevertheless, this sounds like a situation that will explode one day and neutering is not going to prevent it. Dogs don't fight a little less once they start.


Absolutely agree with this. We have one female who is unstable. She attacks, mostly Jax, under certain conditions. Jax fights back. At first, it's wet fur but it doesn't take long to escalate to ER visits for stitches. The cycle of tension builds and builds.

We have no choice but to keep Sierra, for various reasons and Jax isn't going anywhere. So we watch closely, keep them separated, we started training with both of them with an excellent trainer which is helping to teach them "pack behavior" (her eval was that we have two separate packs in our home which I agree with). We haven't had problems with these two dogs in months but Sierra did attack Banshee once in the last several months because DH was on the floor doing something by the TV and Banshee was near him (yes...that's all it takes.)

While our situation is slightly different than yours, as Sierra is an anxiety ridden nerve bag,there are several similarities and I can tell you, from my experience, that the best solution is to rehome one if possible unless you are prepared to ALWAYS be on your guard.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Not sure if this has been mentioned but these dogs will react more to obedience attention rather than the petting and love. I'd completely stop with that stuff try not to give them any kind of affection in front of each other. For a while it would really only be commanding and correcting. I would put them both in their place so to say by doing a lot of obedience work. You're right about re-homing and that it will be super difficult and who knows what kind of home he will end up in. 

I'll also reiterate the neutering idea. Although I don't believe it solves all problems, this is one that it can surely help. I've noticed dogs either feel threatened when an intact male (mine) is around, or they'll be a lot more likely to not like each other (especially if a female is around) if they're both intact.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> -dogs who appear to love each other, play together, sleep together, clean each others' ears, etc. It does not mean they won't fight.


The thing is, any of us with multiple dogs could be in this situation.
The key is prevention, and knowing triggers, and doing our best to squelch things before they happen.

Dogs aren't kids - they have their own hierarchy's, even if only in their own minds.

I don't believe all fights begin with "a look". Many can be prevented by simply avoiding triggers, such as, if you know they all like beds on the floor, make sure there's enough beds, and watch them to make sure there's no impending squabbles. 

Here, if a dog tries to "own" space, they lose it. They are removed and put elsewhere. It serves to remind the dog that we are the "boss" in the house, and what we say, goes.

Chelle, not sure if you do Mind Games - but they involve taking leadership from your dogs.
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong 
We do some of these things fairly regularly, enough to remind the dogs that we are in charge, we don't like fighting and it's not tolerated.

I'd say most fights begin over _resources_. Guarding resources. If you think about it, most fights occur over "this is mine and you can't have it", whether it's a human, a ball, a bed/spot on the floor/couch, treats/food and even a feather, if the dog decides "this is mine and you can't have it". 

I've seen dogs (and heard of other's dogs) fight over _vomit_...if one or the other decided they wanted to eat it before the other could get there!

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/1others.php

_Adding another dog to the household can upset the pack order, and might cause dominance issues between the pets. A dog approaching adolescence may feel the need to test his place in the pack order. Some growling and skirmishes can be expected between dogs while they sort this out. There is not really any problem as long as one dog does back off or roll over, and the other does quit pushing it at that point. It should be completely bloodless, just a lot of canine 4 letter words and some pushing around while the new or maturing dog tests his position in the pack. It can sound quite scary. Sometimes the original dog will end up subordinate, sometimes not. That's not a bad thing as long as each dog accepts his place in the pack, whatever it is. _


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I once had an adolescent female who started picking fights with my older female. She only did it a couple of times, both while she was in heat, but she meant business--if I hadn't been right there to intervene, it could have ended VERY badly--as it was, my older girl had a torn lip that probably could have used a couple sutures, but it healed up quickly. After the adolescent was spayed, we never had another problem. In that case it was simply hormones, so I'm hoping it's the same in chelle's case.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh I'm not saying either way, if it'll help, go away, or be manageable, or what...I meant that fights can occur any time and if you went based on 2-3 fights a year, none of us would have multiple dogs.

We had to rehome one of ours last spring due to her back injury - she was in pain and quite guarded and yet wanted to play with the other dogs. But when they'd touch her back, she'd start snarling and snapping and it was not pleasant. She also started guarding (space) viciously, but again, it was only after her back injury that all started. 
We knew she'd be happier and more comfortable in a home where there were no other dogs and that's what we found for her. 
I miss her all the time but I know she's better off in her new home.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I would also lean towards re-homing Tucker. 

It depends on what your comfort level is. Over the last 4 years, we've had anywhere from 3-5 indoor dogs at a time, four are resdient dogs (senior Westie, senior Pek mix, a female GSD, a senior male GSD who passed away earlier this year), plus a GSD or Mal mix foster. We've never had a scuffle. It is just not something I tolerate. Maybe I am being paranoid, but I do not want a dog fight in my household. I am physically smaller and if there is a serious dog fight among the bigger dogs, there is no way I can break them apart. 

Dogs who can get into fights are separated. My current GSD foster is a young rambunctious male, given the chance, he wants to be in my female GSD's face all the time (to invite play). My female GSD does not play with other dogs. She curled her lips at him a couple of times, for me, that's enough to keep them separated in the house. 

I always thought if a fight broke out between two dogs, there is a high chance it will happen again, and the only way to prevent it is to separate them/not let a fight break out. 

My three resident dogs will come before any other dog (foster or not) that enter the household. If a new dog poses an actual threat to any of the three resident dogs, he/she will be separated from my resident dogs until a suitable home comes up.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It depends on what your comfort level is


This!
For instance - I'd never put my hand in a fight. My husband has, but mostly with the intention of dragging one of the dogs out of the fight. Thank God he's not been bitten.

However, I am the type to not stick my hands in, but find something to put between the dogs. If in the kitchen, a chair works. 
In the living room, a throw pillow or something similar. Dog bed, etc.
In a/c work, we were taught to have something to put in between us and the dog and I've never forgotten that, and look around for any object to stick between the dogs. The more solid, the better. 

Be sure you have a plan in case a fight breaks out. Leashes on each dog go a long ways towards helping protect them, but aren't practical if you let them out a good part of the day without supervision. And sometimes dogs can hook a tooth behind another dog's collar. 

But above all, until your home either settles down and/or you rehome Tucker, have a PLAN in place. Don't freak out or you'll do no good to either dog. 
Make sure you can break up a fight if necessary - without putting your hands into the fray.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Chelle,I understand the position you are in.My awareness increases everyday of just how many more pet dogs there are then homes. Rehoming is a difficult journey at best. I am no expert but for two and half years lived w/ a dog aggressive lab/pit mix and Lucky who for the first year due to HW was still intact. We managed .If I hadnt taken Lucky he would have died and Dodger deserved to keep his forever home. That said it was management.I have no advice just that you have always put your dogs needs ahead of your own wants and I know you will do the right thing no matter what it is. I think that while rehoming would be difficult if and when you find the right home for Tuck it will happen. They went camping together right, any problems there? I used short leashes on both of our dpgs to pull them in opposite directions. It was often like power lifting pulling them apart. I hate sticking my hand in between two dogs.Ive done it w/ daisy and lucky a few times.
I think you can handle this and I think some of the training suggested can help. We got to the point that our two boys could be outside together w/ supervision but it had to be one on one supervision.. Im not sure how many people who have more then one dog haven't went into management of behavior phase at one time or another with their dogs.
Maggi


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Chelle, am I correct in assuming you do not live with children? I don't recall you mentioning children ever and I have been following your story. 
*If you don't have children*, here is my opinion: I am sure it isn't popular opinion but I would keep both dogs and do as much as I could for them until it was absolutely 100% evident that the situation wasn't improving and the dog would be better off elsewhere. Yes, you potentially could get injured. You understand that. But you are continuing to learn from what is working with the dogs and what isn't. 
*If you do have children,* I can't give an opinion. I would have to see the dog's behavior firsthand and see if there was any way to make the home safe for children. I would likely suggest rehoming, but would tell you not to rush it and find the right fit for the dog. In the meantime take extra precautions with the children.

The only real advice I can offer is to definitely get him neutered ASAP. It may or may not help the behavioral issues. Also, I would try to find time to exercise the dogs separately. I would praise them while I am spending alone time with them. I would keep there exercise separate for at least a month and then try to exercise them together once a week. During joint exercise, I would praise both dogs equally. If one reacts poorly to you praising the other dog, I would either A) end the exercise for that dog or B) correct the dog. I would increase the frequency of joint exercise if/when they began getting along. I know it is very difficult to find time to exercise your dogs separately, but I think this could help.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

martemchik said:


> ...*For a while it would really only be commanding and correcting. I would put them both in their place so to say by doing a lot of obedience work.* You're right about *re-homing and that it will be super difficult *and who knows what kind of home he will end up in....
> 
> *I'll also reiterate the neutering idea....*


I like this. (command/correct) I do completely see how you and Carmspack (and others) are spot on with stepping up Obedience. I usually make them sit before going out, etc, (nilif stuff)... but I've been letting that slack a bit so I am going to go back to being more strict.

I thought about all of this a lot today and came home in a different frame of mind. 

I have been coddling Bailey too much. I need to step this thing up. I really have seen myself as the super duper alpha mega owner extraordinaire, but I have let my guilty feelings cloud things. I've made excuses for his nonsense and that has to stop. That was all well and good until these boys hit adolesence -- but it clearly ain't workin now.

We had a great night tonight. I ignored both of them as they tried to nuzzle me for attn. When I saw some potential triggers, I called them off and they responded perfectly. They played tug with a toy without any problem. I felt like a Hitler, but it was perfect. It really wasn't that different of an evening that any other, but my attitude was very different. It was as though they'd been waiting for me to be stronger for them. More in control. 

Tonight was a real eye-opener for me. These dogs have been needing leadership that I *thought* I was providing -- but I wasn't. I want to cry at the same time I want to jump up and down. 

I am going to make the appt for the neuter. It is time. If I keep waiting for the "perfect" time for funds and work to come together, it'll be six dang months.



msvette2u said:


> The thing is, any of us with multiple dogs could be in this situation. The key is prevention, and knowing triggers, and doing our best to squelch things before they happen....
> 
> Chelle, not sure if you do Mind Games - but they involve taking leadership from your dogs.
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> ...


Yes, mind games, nilif, is everyday life here, but I haven't been as consistent with that lately, as stated above. The mostly blind girl is another story; she's such a sweetheart and never does anything wrong so her life is *E*ILIF. 

Our entire issue is resource-based, and I am (almost always) the resource. A couple of times it was location-resource - (Tucker got into Bailey's crate) - but all resource issues. That is why I feel it is fixable -- or at the very least -- able to be improved significantly if *I* am doing the right things when the guarding occurs. A couple of toys have set things off, so they were put up, yet other toys are no issue and can lay around all day and never cause a problem. 

I've learned a lot about posturing and triggers. They are definitely there. I wish I had known more about that before and perhaps I wouldn't be here now. Ah hindsight.... But now I know. Bailey definitely exhibits certain behaviors. He paces, circles and does the stink-eye. 



msvette2u said:


> This!
> For instance -* I'd never put my hand in a fight*. My husband has, but mostly with the intention of dragging one of the dogs out of the fight. Thank God he's not been bitten.
> 
> However, I am the type to not stick my hands in, but find something to put between the dogs. If in the kitchen, a chair works.
> ...


I put my hands right in there the first squabble. Got a small puncture out of it. I should count myself lucky I suppose. I even made a post about it at the time -- something about what is a fight vs a squabble. Well, now I know the difference.

Thus far, we've only had squabbles, but had they been allowed to progress, I believe they would've likely been fights. This will sound nuts, but it doesn't scare me to break them up. I just do and if I am shook up, it is *after* it is *over*, not while it is happening. 

They are outdoors without supervision for only very short stints and even then I am darting between the windows to spy on them. There's never been an altercation between them when outside alone. I'm going back and forth between five windows to get all viewpoints and ... nothing. They'll meander around, play some, chase some, then when tired, go to the picnic table and chill. (Reinforces the thought that.. it.. is all about .. me.  )



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Chelle,I understand the position you are in.My awareness increases everyday of just how many more pet dogs there are then homes. *Rehoming is a difficult journey at best*. I am no expert but for two and half years lived w/ a dog aggressive lab/pit mix and Lucky who for the first year due to HW was still intact. We managed .If I hadnt taken Lucky he would have died and Dodger deserved to keep his forever home. That said it was management.I have no advice just that you have always put your dogs needs ahead of your own wants and I know you will do the right thing no matter what it is. I think that while rehoming would be difficult if and when you find the right home for Tuck it will happen. *They went camping together right, any problems there?* I used short leashes on both of our dpgs to pull them in opposite directions. It was often like power lifting pulling them apart. I hate sticking my hand in between two dogs.Ive done it w/ daisy and lucky a few times. I think you can handle this and I think some of the training suggested can help. We got to the point that our two boys could be outside together w/ supervision but it had to be one on one supervision.. *Im not sure how many people who have more then one dog haven't went into management of behavior phase at one time or another with their dogs*.
> Maggi


Maggi, camping was just fine.  Not a single issue even inside a dinky camper. We didn't spend much time other than sleep time inside, but one afternoon it poured rain and we were inside for a few hours. No problems. They got a little rambunctious, but no fighting or snarky baloney stuff. I did crate Tuckie for sleeping.

~~~~~

The rehoming thing is easy to say, but so much harder to actually do.

Tucker is wonderful (no, not biased of course :wub but the truth of the matter is, he's a mixed-breed adolescent, high energy dog. He is the dog that may, or may not, make it out of a shelter.

When he'd been here a month or so, I put out feelers to about six or seven rescues. I received two responses. The first took over 3 weeks to answer and when I answered them, it was at least another month to get their next msg. I understand rescues are overloaded.

The other rescue was great, but they explained they worked many states, and although they did very thorough checks -- in home as well -- most of their dogs were sent via volunteer transport to many surrounding states. Ie, I would have to hand Tucker over to them and he would go perhaps hundreds of miles away to strangers.

I can't do that.

So, while I do understand the advice to rehome, unfortunately it just is not that easy.

As far as management -- yes I am fully capable, ready and willing. What choice do I truly have? 

I cannot, in good conscience, try to rehome Tucker when the issues are likely not about the dogs and more about my failures. 

SO -- I am going to step up obedience. Quit being mamby pamby and overlooking Bailey being a bozo. Exercise them more. Neuter Bails. Give it some time and a lot of diligence. That's the plan for now. I'm still completely open to any advice, any personal experiences, etc. Re-homing, at this point, is on a back burner.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vicky2200 said:


> Chelle, am I correct in assuming you do not live with children? I don't recall you mentioning children ever and I have been following your story. *If you don't have children*, here is my opinion: I am sure it isn't popular opinion but I would keep both dogs and do as much as I could for them until it was absolutely *100% evident that the situation wasn't improving* and the dog would be better off elsewhere. *Yes, you potentially could get injured. You understand that.* *But you are continuing to learn from what is working with the dogs and what isn't.......*
> 
> The only real advice I can offer is to definitely get him neutered ASAP. It may or may not help the behavioral issues. Also, I would try to find time to exercise the dogs separately. I would praise them while I am spending alone time with them. I would keep there exercise separate for at least a month and then try to exercise them together once a week. During joint exercise, I would praise both dogs equally. If one reacts poorly to you praising the other dog, I would either A) end the exercise for that dog or B) correct the dog. I would increase the frequency of joint exercise if/when they began getting along. I know it is very difficult to find time to exercise your dogs separately, but I think this could help.


No, I do not have any kids living here. My son is grown and lives away. You have nailed my feelings to a "t" -- I do understand I could be injured, but I am learning, too, so I feel that potential is lessening all the time. 

I know I shouldn't downplay dogfights and potential injuries, but I just do not live in fear of that. The altercations have not been difficult to break up -- I simply take Bailey away and Tucker goes off the other direction. High adrenaline affairs, yes. Crate the boys for a time afterwards and be on higher alert for the next day or two. It isn't normal and acceptable, but it also isn't a really hard or dangerous thing... *for now*. I totally recognize if I don't get a true grip on the thing that it'll progress and become worse. 

Thanks for the exercise advice... sounds like a good plan. Definitely worth a shot. There's nothing I won't try.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sounds like you've had your 'ah ha' moment!  Good for you!!

I've often been likened to Hitler, by other dog owners. Well boo hoo, I like a well trained dog. And guess what? These dogs like to be trained! I have a copy of _The German Shepherd Dog_ by Capt. v. Stephanitz and in it he goes on and on (and on and on and on) about how easy it is to ruin a GSD. And one thing he really seems to dislike is a spoiled GSD.
Even writing about the prong, "By the way, we must always adhere to the opinion that a good trainer can well manage without such auxillary collars, they only become necessary for very troublesome dogs and such dogs who have been spoilt in their youth."

I don't know if it's the English translation from the German, the German culture in general, or Stephanitz in particular, but I love this book. And I also think of the GSD as *his* dog, so what he has to say about them means alot to me, moreso than anyone else. I'm sure that the often quoted saying of his about keeping the breed a working dog meant that the breed wasn't supposed to laze about, but more importantly that their brains be put to use, and that they had structure and discipline in their lives. That they enjoy knowing the rules and prefer to follow them.

So be strict knowing that this isn't just the way things have to be, but the way things were always meant to be. Not mean or unkind or unfair or overbearing etc...just firm! They want it, they need it, they deserve it.

Good luck with the boys


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