# dogs humping in the park



## lalachka

so, starting a new thread, 

here's what i said



> I agree!!!! *So the responsible thing to do is to not let your dogs hump or dominate any other dogs. You'd be surprised how many people don't agree to that. *
> 
> They think that dogs should 'work it out', 'that's what they do in the wild'. I just stay away now, I don't have the desire to argue about this anymore.


DaniFani said


> OK, but the problem is *most people can *not* read dog-body language, fast enough, if at all.....I highly recommend reading The book "How to Speak Dog" by Coren. I think you make a lot of assumptions and seem to think you understand dog language when I've seen quite a few posts where you aren't as knowledgeable, but vehemently defend your stance. The book is a great read, shows how every little nuance in a dog's body language means something to another dog, etc....I do not know a single professional handler/trainer who would EVER take their dog to a dog park, or even let their dog's run off leash with other friend's dogs, and they know how to read dog body language better than a huge majority of the dog owners out there.


 
please tell me where said anything except the fact that dog owners shouldn't let their dogs dominate other dogs whether it's by humping or standing over them while the other dog is laying down.

do you not agree? owners SHOULD let their dogs do that?

who's talking about their ability to read dog body language? you see your dog hump - you stop him and don't say that "they should work it out".

as far as trainers not taking their dogs to the park, most of them (if not all) have places they can take their dogs or have a yard. i don't have either, for me it's either a park (again, not a dog park) or no exercise.


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## JakodaCD OA

so what? this thread just looks like you want someone to say that you never said "dog humping is allowable"..? 

No owners shouldn't allow their dogs to bully, hump, intimidate, start dog poop with other dogs..

I don't see where ANYONE said they should work it out? So I guess I'm missing the whole point of this topic?


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> so what? this thread just looks like you want someone to say that you never said "dog humping is allowable"..?
> 
> No owners shouldn't allow their dogs to bully, hump, intimidate, start dog poop with other dogs..
> 
> I don't see where ANYONE said they should work it out? So I guess I'm missing the whole point of this topic?


 
my quote is what i said. at the park i go to people feel like they should let the dogs "work it out", that letting them hump each other is not a big deal. i used to try to explain that it IS a big deal because you never know how the dog being dominated will react.

there were already times that the dog being dominated would snap and there'd be a fight, not a real one, but still, scary enough. and even after seeing all this, the same people still let their dogs hump and posture over others because they feel that "they should work it out".


i posted DaniFani's reply because i wanted to reply to her post but couldn't do it in the previous thread without taking it off topic even more


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## Blanketback

If someone tells you to let the dogs work it out (which I know happens all the time!) then you correct them, and tell them you DO NOT share their philosophy, and insist that they control their dog. Period. So many people bring dogs to the dog park that shouldn't be there, it's ridiculous. I stopped going because my vet told me that it was such an unhealthy environment, but before that I was getting into all sorts of disagreements with people and their snapping, humping, etc. dogs.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> If someone tells you to let the dogs work it out (which I know happens all the time!) then you correct them, and tell them you DO NOT share their philosophy, and insist that they control their dog. Period. So many people bring dogs to the dog park that shouldn't be there, it's ridiculous. I stopped going because my vet told me that it was such an unhealthy environment, but before that I was getting into all sorts of disagreements with people and their snapping, humping, etc. dogs.


 
that's what i was looking for))))) i know it's not me, i can't be wrong in this case.

i've started staying in the corner by myself, unfortunately, before i knew any better, i already met every dog in the park so they will come over when they see me. 

i now have no problem telling people to watch their dog but when i first got my boy - i did, i felt shy))))) also, i at some point didn't know any better and believed them when they said the "work it out" thing and i'm sure i messed up my boy, there were a few encounters that i'd never let happen today.


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## DaniFani

Oh my goodness....lala, your ability to take a thread and take the craziest spin on it just floors me lol. When I said we should open another thread I was speaking about a thread debating the responsibilities of owners who take their dog's to dog parks, any inherent risks, and potential liabilities. I don't know why you are so set on talking about dogs humping lol....the original thread was a dog pack that went barreling into a dog(akita) standing next to his owner, and the akita bit the OP's dog. You and other's said the Akita should "pay bills and then some" and I stated that imo going to a dog park involves inherent risks, and that having the dog bit is one of them.

I also brought up the reading dog language book, because I think a lot of owners "think" they are great at reading dog language, when they really aren't. And that this lack of knowledge and experience leads to owners putting their dog in bad situations, unknowingly, and then wanting to sue another owner because their dog was bit. Again, not sure why humping keeps being brought up. And the OP of the other post stated that she had no intention of going after the Akita's owner because her dog and another barreled into him and his owner, and if the rolls were reversed she couldn't say her dog wouldn't have reacted the same.

I am now starting to understand why so many "seasoned" posters here tell newer members to slow their role, get some experience and knowledge, and really think about what they are posting about so passionately and vehemently. Plus, you seem to jump to conclusions and assumptions very quickly, and I have seen many many times of you getting very heated about something that has really nothing to do with the original topic or message an OP was trying to convey.


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## Blanketback

It's depressing to see people not speak up for their dogs. I know when people are shy or don't want to be confrontational it's a hard thing to do, but you *HAVE* to do it, because some people are complete idiots. Just think if it was someone handing your kid a crack pipe, lol - you'd tear their arm off!


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## NTexFoster

I've never been to a dog park, but based on the various threads I've read here: I won't be changing that. My neighborhood has several nice parks and green belts for me to exercise my pack.

I generally keep us away from people who have their dogs off leash. From what I've seen they don't actually have the dog trained to be without a leash (ie they tell the dog to come and the dog doesn't).

Distance from disorder.


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## DaniFani

And no one said anywhere that dog's should "work it out." Honestly, Lala, where is this coming from?? The topic I brought up in the other thread was that often fights occur after lots of signals from dogs are sent, that us humans (unexperienced ones anyway) just can't read. And that once a fight does break out, I personally, don't think that it's always any one owners fault. I believe dog parks are very risky, and if you take your dog to one, you are at risk of a fight breaking out because you just don't know, nor should you expect, every dog to get along when they are being FORCED into a situation to "play," no matter how friendly the dog is in every other situation. The OP of the other thread even said, "the akita's owner was SHOCKED that it bit." That's usually the case "my dog would never hurt anyone, my dog loves other dogs, etc..." The topic I was discussing had NOTHING to do with "letting the dog figure it out." You twisted the context of that unbelievably, added in some nonsense about humping, and then tried to say that I was saying the dogs should fight it out....my head is just spinning with trying to understand your logic in any threads you participate in....honestly....:crazy:


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Oh my goodness....lala, your ability to take a thread and take the craziest spin on it just floors me lol. When I said we should open another thread I was speaking about a thread debating the responsibilities of owners who take their dog's to dog parks, any inherent risks, and potential liabilities. I don't know why you are so set on talking about dogs humping lol....the original thread was a dog pack that went barreling into a dog(akita) standing next to his owner, and the akita bit the OP's dog. *You and other's said the Akita should "pay bills and then some"* and I stated that imo going to a dog park involves inherent risks, and that having the dog bit is one of them.
> 
> *I also brought up the reading dog language book, because I think a lot of owners "think" they are great at reading dog language, when they really aren't.* And that this lack of knowledge and experience leads to owners putting their dog in bad situations, unknowingly, and then wanting to sue another owner because their dog was bit. Again, not sure why humping keeps being brought up. And the OP of the other post stated that she had no intention of going after the Akita's owner because her dog and another barreled into him and his owner, and if the rolls were reversed she couldn't say her dog wouldn't have reacted the same.
> 
> I am now starting to understand why so many "seasoned" posters here tell newer members to slow their role, get some experience and knowledge, and really think about what they are posting about so passionately and vehemently. Plus, you seem to jump to conclusions and assumptions very quickly, and I have seen many many times of you getting very heated about something that has really nothing to do with the original topic or message an OP was trying to convey.


 
i never said the owner should pay, you're mixing me up with someone else.

the reason i keep bring up dogs humping because for me it's a pressing issue lol))))) i'm so pissed about it because every freaking night i see the same dogs doing it and i'm tired of arguing that this is not the way it should be.

i did take your advice on reading the book about body language, i definitely want to understand what my dog is saying to me at all times.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> And no one said anywhere that dog's should "work it out." Honestly, Lala, where is this coming from?? The topic I brought up in the other thread was that often fights occur after lots of signals from dogs are sent, that us humans (unexperienced ones anyway) just can't read. And that once a fight does break out, I personally, don't think that it's always any one owners fault. I believe dog parks are very risky, and if you take your dog to one, you are at risk of a fight breaking out because you just don't know, nor should you expect, every dog to get along when they are being FORCED into a situation to "play," no matter how friendly the dog is in every other situation. The OP of the other thread even said, "the akita's owner was SHOCKED that it bit." That's usually the case "my dog would never hurt anyone, my dog loves other dogs, etc..." The topic I was discussing had NOTHING to do with "letting the dog figure it out." You twisted the context of that unbelievably, added in some nonsense about humping, and then tried to say that I was saying the dogs should fight it out....my head is just spinning with trying to understand your logic in any threads you participate in....honestly....:crazy:


 
it's a pressing issue for me, i thought i explained it clearly. english is not my language, i'm sure there's a language barrier.

in the park i go to i see this every night, owners let their dogs hump other dogs or dominate them and when i try saying that they shouldn't they think i'm crazy.

i'm pretty sure i did a lot of damage to my boy because when i first got him i didn't know any better, so i'd go to the park, meet all these dogs, let them play. i'd see that it's getting a little rough and would ask the owners of the other dog what i should do (i was assuming every owners knows what they're doing) and they'd say "let them work it out".

so i'm sure that my boy's fear aggression stems from those sessions. now i don't let him play or be dominated but i'm seeing the same people letting their dogs doing it to other dogs and i'm fuming.

that's why i was posting this, i saw a "fight, dog park", and this is what's on my mind so i posted about it.


ETA trust me, i know that my mind is all over the place. THAT i heard meany times from many people, so it's not just here. my mind makes leaps that you'd never understand))))) but they make perfect sense to me. i will try keeping this in mind when i post.


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## DaniFani

And by all means, if you want to open a thread talking about dogs humping and owners letting them "work it out" that's fine by me....but don't drag me into it and try and say that my stance was that the dogs should "work it out" when I wasn't talking about that (nor was ANYONE else in the thread) at ALL. Nor try and put yourself in this victim position of "come on, I can't believe I am alone here....I can't be the ONLY one that thinks dogs shouldn't 'work it out.'" NO ONE is saying or has said that. :headbang:


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> It's depressing to see people not speak up for their dogs. I know when people are shy or don't want to be confrontational it's a hard thing to do, but you *HAVE* to do it, because some people are complete idiots. Just think if it was someone handing your kid a crack pipe, lol - you'd tear their arm off!


i have NOOOOO problems doing it now, none. i'm not sure what it was, me being shy or not sure that i should've stopped it. in either case i'm beating myself up over it non stop.

no one does ANYTHING to my boy now. little too late but i can't change anything


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> it's a pressing issue for me, i thought i explained it clearly. english is not my language, i'm sure there's a language barrier.
> 
> in the park i go to i see this every night, owners let their dogs hump other dogs or dominate them and when i try saying that they shouldn't they think i'm crazy.
> 
> i'm pretty sure i did a lot of damage to my boy because when i first got him i didn't know any better, so i'd go to the park, meet all these dogs, let them play. i'd see that it's getting a little rough and would ask the owners of the other dog what i should do (i was assuming every owners knows what they're doing) and they'd say "let them work it out".
> 
> so i'm sure that my boy's fear aggression stems from those sessions. now i don't let him play or be dominated but i'm seeing the same people letting their dogs doing it to other dogs and i'm fuming.
> 
> that's why i was posting this, i saw a fight, dog park, and this is what's on my mind so i posted about it.


No, you can't back pedal now. You posted this, stating it was from another thread, and you wanted to continue on that conversation in a new thread. You quoted ME in your original post, stating that I was saying the dogs should "work it out." Now you are saying, you weren't saying any of that at all, and that you are talking about a dog fight YOU saw....which btw, this is the FIRST time you've mentioned that....and, oh, there is a language barrier and that's why maybe this is confusing.....well, if there is a large language barrier, maybe you need to sit back, really think about everything you are responding to, and not do it so passionately and argumentatively. And please, don't try and bring me into a debate quoting me from a context that has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about. Jeesh.....How big can I make that head-banging emoticon??


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## NTexFoster

lalachka said:


> in the park i go to i see this every night, owners let their dogs hump other dogs or dominate them and when i try saying that they shouldn't they think i'm crazy.


I know nothing of your situation, but I'm curious: why do you keep going back to this park every night to see the same things you don't like to see?

If you go to a restaurant that makes crappy food, do you go back to it?

I know I live in my own little world, but I'd find a new park or a different place. Excepting other people to change to suit you is a path filled with frustration.

Distance from disorder.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> And by all means, if you want to open a thread talking about dogs humping and owners letting them "work it out" that's fine by me....but don't drag me into it and try and say that my stance was that the dogs should "work it out" when I wasn't talking about that (nor was ANYONE else in the thread) at ALL. Nor try and put yourself in this victim position of "come on, I can't believe I am alone here....I can't be the ONLY one that thinks dogs shouldn't 'work it out.'" NO ONE is saying or has said that. :headbang:


as i said, there must be a language barrier or just me not speaking clearly. the entire time i was talking about the fact that i see owners at the park letting their dogs hump and when confronted saying "they should work it out".

the reason i posted in that thread was that they were talking about dog fight and i asked a hypothetical question. i thought i explained it but i guess not))))) happens all the time with me


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## lalachka

NTexFoster said:


> I know nothing of your situation, but I'm curious: why do you keep going back to this park every night to see the same things you don't like to see?
> 
> If you go to a restaurant that makes crappy food, do you go back to it?
> 
> I know I live in my own little world, but I'd find a new park or a different place. Excepting other people to change to suit you is a path filled with frustration.
> 
> Distance from disorder.


i don't have another place to go. i wish there was another place where i can let him run off leash or on long leash. this is a big park, i'm not good at estimating but it's like 3-4 school gyms, maybe larger. so there's def enough space there for everyone. at most there are 7 dogs there at the time i go there.

i now pick a corner and stay there, away from everyone. but sometimes people don't get the hint and come over


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## Lilie

NTexFoster said:


> I know nothing of your situation, but I'm curious: why do you keep going back to this park every night to see the same things you don't like to see?
> 
> If you go to a restaurant that makes crappy food, do you go back to it?
> 
> I know I live in my own little world, but I'd find a new park or a different place. Excepting other people to change to suit you is a path filled with frustration.
> 
> Distance from disorder.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> as i said, there must be a language barrier or just me not speaking clearly. the entire time i was talking about the fact that i see owners at the park letting their dogs hump and when confronted saying "they should work it out".
> 
> the reason i posted in that thread was that they were talking about dog fight and i asked a hypothetical question. i thought i explained it but i guess not))))) happens all the time with me


I don't know.....you seem to articulate yourself very very well in all your posts and threads, but then when you are brought into an unfavorable light based on your opinions (I don't see a language barrier as the problem here, your responses were clear and so were the points you were trying to make), then it must be the language barrier as the reason for why someone disagrees with you.  A language barrier doesn't cause you to jump to conclusions, make large assumptions, and start argumentative threads. That's a personality thing.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> No, you can't back pedal now. You posted this, stating it was from another thread, and you wanted to continue on that conversation in a new thread. You quoted ME in your original post, stating that I was saying the dogs should "work it out." Now you are saying, you weren't saying any of that at all, and that you are talking about a dog fight YOU saw....which btw, this is the FIRST time you've mentioned that....and, oh, there is a language barrier and that's why maybe this is confusing.....well, if there is a large language barrier, maybe you need to sit back, really think about everything you are responding to, and not do it so passionately and argumentatively. And please, don't try and bring me into a debate quoting me from a context that has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about. Jeesh.....How big can I make that head-banging emoticon??


omg, i'm not backpedaling in any way. go back and read that thread.

in the other thread, the reason i brought up dogs and humping was because the thread was about a dog fight in the park. in my mind that automatically connected to my park and what goes on there so i posted a hypothetical question, "what do you think people should do when their dogs hump".

someone replied and said that owners should control their dogs.

i said," exactly!!!! not letting them "work it out", meaning as they do in my park. i thought that was obvious.


then you replied with the quote i posted in this thread. what am i backpedaling?


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> I don't know.....you seem to articulate yourself very very well in all your posts and threads, but then when you are brought into an unfavorable light based on your opinions (I don't see a language barrier as the problem here, your responses were clear and so were the points you were trying to make), then it must be the language barrier as the reason for why someone disagrees with you.  A language barrier doesn't cause you to jump to conclusions, make large assumptions, and start argumentative threads. That's a personality thing.


 
ok, i was trying to be polite and say that it's my fault and not yours. you're right, i consider myself to be pretty fluent in engish. but if you insist, i will go back and take apart our posts on that thread.


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## lalachka

Lilie said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:


i agree too)))) i'm sure the time will come when i will say "the heck with exercise" and not go back. it hasn't come yet


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## Blanketback

People say to let the dogs work it out for lots of different reasons. I've met people who know alot about dogs, and they've said this. I've met people who are just too lazy to interfere, and they've also said this. Bottom line is, the park is a 'use at your own risk' place, so you might end up with a dog with a bite, or a dog who was the biter, or go home with a fat lip yourself...ha ha, just kidding! But NTexFoster is right, why keep going back when you see this happening? I always avoided those dogs and their owners, even if it meant going at odd hours.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> ok, i was trying to be polite and say that it's my fault and not yours. you're right, *i consider myself to be pretty fluent in engish.* but if you insist, i will go back and take apart our posts on that thread.


Right...then stop using that as an excuse for why someone disagrees with you or counters your opinion.

No, you weren't being polite....you were dismissing my opinion and stance by saying there is obviously a language barrier.....


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## lalachka

NTexFoster said:


> I've never been to a dog park, but based on the various threads I've read here: I won't be changing that. My neighborhood has several nice parks and green belts for me to exercise my pack.
> 
> I generally keep us away from people who have their dogs off leash. From what I've seen they don't actually have the dog trained to be without a leash (ie they tell the dog to come and the dog doesn't).
> 
> Distance from disorder.


 
i just saw this. yep, for sure, that's exactly how it is. my dog is no better, don't get me wrong.

i just can't understand what people with no backyards do. i'm thinking of moving to a house but i don't know how big of a house i can rent in NYC and moving to LI so i can spend a quarter of my day on the train doesn't sound appealing.


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## JakodaCD OA

there is a time to let dogs work it out and times to not.

I would NEVER let my dogs "work it out" with dogs in a dog park, they are unfamiliar with, or any dog that doesn't live within my pack. 

And it depends on 'what' they are working out. Humping is not allowed, bullying is not allowed, picking on one of the other dogs is not allowed. FIGHTING is not allowed.

If I let Masi work it out with some strange dog, someone is gonna get seriously hurt.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Right...then stop using that as an excuse for why someone disagrees with you or counters your opinion.
> 
> No, you weren't being polite....you were dismissing my opinion and stance by saying there is obviously a language barrier.....


 i WAS being polite because otherwise i'd have to say this.
_ok, then you're wrong, i explain myself very well, you have a reading problem._ 
i still insist that everything makes perfect sense to me.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> People say to let the dogs work it out for lots of different reasons. I've met people who know alot about dogs, and they've said this. I've met people who are just too lazy to interfere, and they've also said this. Bottom line is, the park is a 'use at your own risk' place, so you might end up with a dog with a bite, or a dog who was the biter, or go home with a fat lip yourself...ha ha, just kidding! But NTexFoster is right, why keep going back when you see this happening? I always avoided those dogs and their owners, even if it meant going at odd hours.


you made me laugh)))))
i go at odd hours)))) i'm there every day from between 10pm -2am, so i avoid most of the horror. but still see some.

i don't even know why it bothers me so much, as i said, i don't let them do it to my dog. i just get annoyed at people having no consideration i guess.


ETA can you explain why someone knowledgeable would suggest to let them work it out? i'm not being argumentative, i'm curious


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> there is a time to let dogs work it out and times to not.
> 
> I would NEVER let my dogs "work it out" with dogs in a dog park, they are unfamiliar with, or any dog that doesn't live within my pack.
> 
> And it depends on 'what' they are working out. Humping is not allowed, bullying is not allowed, picking on one of the other dogs is not allowed. FIGHTING is not allowed.
> 
> If I let Masi work it out with some strange dog, someone is gonna get seriously hurt.


can you explain? i'd think there's almost never a good time but i'm sure i just don't know something. i'd think there's a risk for a fight. yeah, some dogs won't fight bur it doesn't mean they're enjoying whatever is going on.

so basically, you're just waiting for it to be done to the dog that won't take it.


ETA never mind, we are on the same page. yeah, if they're fighting with their teeth it sometimes looks aggressive but it's not, i let my dog play till this day with my friend's husky, it has never been aggressive though it looks VERY violent. as a matter of fact, at the same beautiful park, people say that her dog is aggressive and don't say anything to humping.


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## Blanketback

I understand completely. I was also getting upset, and I joked that there'd be a poster up on the gate, warning people about the "bully" with the GSD. Oh well....lol....


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## NTexFoster

lalachka said:


> i don't have another place to go. i wish there was another place where i can let him run off leash or on long leash. this is a big park, i'm not good at estimating but it's like 3-4 school gyms, maybe larger. so there's def enough space there for everyone. at most there are 7 dogs there at the time i go there.
> 
> i now pick a corner and stay there, away from everyone. but sometimes people don't get the hint and come over


First: I agree that people should control their dogs and that they are responsible for what their dog does.

Second: be up front, but sorta polite without actually being polite, and tell people to leave you and your dog alone.


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## lalachka

NTexFoster said:


> First: I agree that people should control their dogs and that they are responsible for what their dog does.
> 
> Second: be up front, but sorta polite without actually being polite, and tell people to leave you and your dog alone.


i do)))) i have no problem saying anything now)))))

but the reason i'm posting about this is because of the number of people that don't agree with me i'm starting to think that i'm wrong on this.


i was just looking for validation)))))


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## Lilie

What does all the ))))) mean?


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## MadLab

Humping has gone way to far and depending on the dogs can trigger fighting.

It is always dependent on the situation. Sometimes if you get involved with 2 males socializing it can trigger a fight too. It is all about timing, experience and knowledge.


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## lalachka

Lilie said:


> What does all the ))))) mean?


 
smiles, it's just something i'm used to doing from before there were smilies in every program. the more ))))))) the bigger the smile


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## Lilie

lalachka said:


> smiles, it's just something i'm used to doing from before there were smilies in every program. the more ))))))) the bigger the smile


Gotcha. That one went way over my head!! )))))))


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## lalachka

Lilie said:


> Gotcha. That one went way over my head!! )))))))


it goes over everyone's head (understandably) and i get irritated because people don't take my posts the way they should.

i will try to start using smiles

but i like a lot of them


this is why i don't do it, my posts look like some 14 year old's. dilemma almost a life deciding question here


this is bad


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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> Humping has gone way to far and depending on the dogs can trigger fighting.
> 
> It is always dependent on the situation. Sometimes if you get involved with 2 males socializing it can trigger a fight too. It is all about timing, experience and knowledge.


i have none. i'd like a good book on body language but i'm having the same problem i'm having with training, even if you get 2 well known and respected trainers you will have them disagree on things. so how do i know who to believe?

same thing with body language, i read a few articles and they contradicted each other on a few points.


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## MadLab

You need to follow your instincts and also stay calm and pretend to be in control. The dog will gravitate to you more when you stay calm. Raising of voice when dogs are checking each other out can add tension.

Never panic, but sometimes swift action is called for.

I make mistakes, but that's how I learn.


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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> You need to follow your instincts and also stay calm and pretend to be in control. The dog will gravitate to you more when you stay calm. Raising of voice when dogs are checking each other out can add tension.
> 
> Never panic, but sometimes swift action is called for.
> 
> I make mistakes, but that's how I learn.


 
all i'm going to say it i can't wait till the day i can come back and brag about how i got it all under control. that day will come though, i'm sure of it.


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## Sunflowers

Lilie said:


> What does all the ))))) mean?


I thought it was humping.


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## MadLab

> so how do i know who to believe?


Just read some different books and make up your own mind. 

Look at the arguments between positive only trainers and trainers willing to use what ever works for them or those who rely on force and 'dominance training' hate the term but just using as example.

Some train for this some train for that. Some are novices who know little, some are experts and what people do in private with there dogs is another matter. Some people have a natural understanding and others take time. 

Some think Cesar Milan is evil others love him. Some want to ban the e collar and others embrace it. You are always gonna find 5 ways to deal with each situation and loads of conflicting advice.

For me you need to have compassion for the animal but not too much emotion. It is better for everybody if you can find ways of controlling him as then you have no frustration and so will not punish the dog.

Keep an open mind and don't take it too seriously and keep your dog out of trouble. Use a long leash and a muzzle is a good way to limit any damage if the dog is aggressive. The training and techniques should be enjoyable as should walking your dog and exercising.


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## lalachka

Sunflowers said:


> I thought it was humping.


)))))) are you serious?)))))) or joking? you made me lol either way.


i've been using these way before the humping thread


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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> Just read some different books and make up your own mind.
> 
> Look at the arguments between positive only trainers and trainers willing to use what ever works for them or those who rely on force and 'dominance training' hate the term but just using as example.
> 
> Some train for this some train for that. Some are novices who know little, some are experts and what people do in private with there dogs is another matter. Some people have a natural understanding and others take time.
> 
> Some think Cesar Milan is evil others love him. Some want to ban the e collar and others embrace it. You are always gonna find 5 ways to deal with each situation and loads of conflicting advice.
> 
> For me you need to have compassion for the animal but not too much emotion. It is better for everybody if you can find ways of controlling him as then you have no frustration and so will not punish the dog.
> 
> Keep an open mind and don't take it too seriously and keep your dog out of trouble. Use a long leash and a muzzle is a good way to limit any damage if the dog is aggressive. The training and techniques should be enjoyable as should walking your dog and exercising.


that's what i've been trying, picking out the pieces i agree with. my boy is not aggressive yet, however, i can see him becoming really aggressive if i don't do something about it. so i'm trying.

i'm enjoying him immensely, he's enjoying me as well it seems like. at home - always, outside he sometimes finds things to focus on but usually focuses back in a minute or 2.

he's a really good dog!!!!

any good read on body language? sometimes he's wagging his tail but i heard the speed they do it at matters as well. i know DaniFani suggested a book but i can't buy it till Friday, so i'd like to read something free for now.


----------



## Courtney

This scenario you describe sounds like a free for all. GSD are typically not social butterflies in dog park settings. They don't care for antics & like order.

Correcting behavior is fine with your own pack but with unknown dogs all heck can break loose. Trying to break up a dog fight is not fun. The human usually walks away with battle scars.

Dog humping is not always about dominance. Some dogs will really take offense. Mine will try to remove that dog from the planet.


----------



## MadLab

Google dog body language and you'll see some common images. I found Cesar's Way by Cesar Millan pretty good. Also in his shows, he explains his theories regarding behavior, body language and interactions between dogs.


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## lalachka

Courtney said:


> This scenario you describe sounds like a free for all. GSD are typically not social butterflies in dog park settings. They don't care for antics & like order.
> 
> Correcting behavior is fine with your own pack but with unknown dogs all heck can break loose. Trying to break up a dog fight is not fun. The human usually walks away with battle scars.
> 
> Dog humping is not always about dominance. Some dogs will really take offense. Mine will try to remove that dog from the planet.


Lol @ social butterflies and @ mine wi try to remove that dog from the planet. 

Why else do dogs hump? I thought it was always dominance. I'm not arguing, I'm really asking. 




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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> Google dog body language and you'll see some common images. I found Cesar's Way by Cesar Millan pretty good. Also in his shows, he explains his theories regarding behavior, body language and interactions between dogs.


I admit I've never watched him so it's probably not the smartest of me to talk about it. But from what I know about the show it's not my style. I saw a small snippet with no sound, he's all about intimidating dogs. I don't buy into that. JMO


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## DaniFani

nevermind


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## MadLab

And you think your dog barking at people is not intimidating. 

Generally people who don't watch his show or read his book have that view. I wonder why.


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## wolfy dog

This entire thread can be filed under "Have we all lost our minds?" 

Lala, lighten up and stop obsessing about humping. You made your point.


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## JakodaCD OA

The best way to learn is go to an obedience class, YOU will learn how to handle your dog "doing it" is much more valuable than reading about it.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I admit I've never watched him so *it's probably not the smartest of me to talk about it.* But from what I know about the show it's not my style. I saw a small snippet with no sound, he's all about intimidating dogs. I don't buy into that. JMO
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This. This is the train of thought that would normally lead someone to cease and disist the rest of the comment. This is the part of the brain you should listen to, and why you keep asking yourself in threads...."why does everyone want to pick a fight with me." It has nothing to do with a language barrier or your tone, it's your blatant disregard and ignorance to knowledge, yet still forming an opinion and wildly defending it. :crazy:


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## Lilie

Sunflowers said:


> I thought it was humping.


LOL!!! That's funny stuff, right there!!!!


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## MadLab

> This entire thread can be filed under "Have we all lost our minds?"
> Lala, lighten up and stop obsessing about humping. You made your point.


I don't really see why you want to neuter the discussion

Give people a chance


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## lalachka

wolfy dog said:


> This entire thread can be filed under "Have we all lost our minds?"
> 
> Lala, lighten up and stop obsessing about humping. You made your point.


It's not humping I'm obsessing over. If you knew how to read you'd know that. 

Once you get your own forum and I come on it to post you can name stuff whatever you want and tell me to stop. 

Till then...


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## JakodaCD OA

> can you explain?


I think I explained it quite well in my post. It's RUDE behavior to allow ones dog to bully, pick on, hump, get in another dogs face and not allowed in my house or by my dogs.

I said "IF a strange dog did this to mine, there would be a big ole fight and someone would get hurt".

I'll bet if you spent all this internet time training your dog he'd be perfect in a week

I really think you would benefit from taking your dog to an obedience class,doing it is more valuable than reading about it .


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## JakodaCD OA

well lalachka I'm telling you to STOP.. like NOW thank you.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> This. This is the train of thought that would normally lead someone to cease and disist the rest of the comment. This is the part of the brain you should listen to, and why you keep asking yourself in threads...."why does everyone want to pick a fight with me." It has nothing to do with a language barrier or your tone, it's your blatant disregard and ignorance to knowledge, yet still forming an opinion and wildly defending it. :crazy:


Where did you see me wildly defending it? Also, if you missed, I said I saw a small snippet and heard about it. So I do have a basis to form an opinion. 

Ignorance to knowledge? Because I don't want to watch Cesar Milan's show which based on what I saw and read is not my style?

I mean you have your opinion on me and thats fine, it's just an opinion, just like everything else on this forum. 


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> well lalachka I'm telling you to STOP.. like NOW thank you.


This is different. But stop what?

If you're going to tell me to stop then also stop people that are starting. Not fair to shut me up but let them go on, no?


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think I explained it quite well in my post. It's RUDE behavior to allow ones dog to bully, pick on, hump, get in another dogs face and not allowed in my house or by my dogs.
> 
> I said "IF a strange dog did this to mine, there would be a big ole fight and someone would get hurt".
> 
> I'll bet if you spent all this internet time training your dog he'd be perfect in a week
> 
> I really think you would benefit from taking your dog to an obedience class,doing it is more valuable than reading about it .


I'm not home now, I wish I could be home with him. 


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## Blanketback

lalachka said:


> I admit I've never watched him so it's probably not the smartest of me to talk about it.


Thank you for the refreshing honesty! I'm so tired of the "this is my first GSD and I know all I'll ever need to know" posts, lol. But as for picking a style of training, as MadLab suggests, it might be good to figure out how it fits with your own personality too. That could be another thread? I don't have a problem with CM myself, but I could pick him apart too, like how he says not to play tug....whatever, we all have to work with our own particular dogs, and stay true to our own instincts.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Thank you for the refreshing honesty! I'm so tired of the "this is my first GSD and I know all I'll ever need to know" posts, lol. But as for picking a style of training, as MadLab suggests, it might be good to figure out how it fits with your own personality too. That could be another thread? I don't have a problem with CM myself, but I could pick him apart too, like how he says not to play tug....whatever, we all have to work with our own particular dogs, and stay true to our own instincts.


I know I have tons of flaws, I'm aware of them. I'd think me being aware and saying that im aware would stop people from commenting on them. 

Anyway, thank you all, I have a nice manual for what to do when I'm outside)))))

I will take a break from here. Don't want to get anyone's blood pressure up. 

ETA blanketback, if you picked up on that sentence then you picked up on the fact that this wasnt towards you. 



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## selzer

Lalachka, 

Old style training works. Balanced training works. Positive Reinforcement training works. Yank and crank works. There are as many training methods that work as there are trainers, probably. The thing is, not everything works for every dog/handler team. And not every training will get you where you want to go with your puppy as efficiently and with as little damage with both parties involved. 

Reading a book or two, and watching some videos is information, but you need to find a trainer that you trust, and then you are going to have to trust him. This is your first GSD, and the worst thing you can do is be tentative. It is hard to follow a leader who doesn't know what to do next. And dogs pick up on that. I am not a Cesar fan, but he talks about confidence, calm and confident (or is that assertive? whatever). You need to be confident for your puppy because if you are not confident, if you are not projecting confidence you are going to put your pup in an state lacking in confidence. 

When dogs lack confidence in themselves and more importantly in us, then they can become dangerous, it is too much of a coincidence that a lot of reactive dogs are coming from people who totally lack confidence. 

I hope someone can steer you to a decent trainer, and you can not argue with him, but let him teach you how to teach your puppy in some method. And the two of you can gain confidence in each other, so that a year from now we are reading about what a great time you had at the park, or at the beach, or at a trip to your relatives home.

ETA: This is a process and it does not happen over night or after six weeks of training. Find a good trainer, good classes, and just keep going. When you are there, you will know.


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## Blanketback

Lol, no worries. I think you should ask as many questions as you want - that's what this place is for, right? You don't have to worry about other people's blood pressure. I know I'll scroll past some members' posts myself, just to avoid the aggravation. But if I didn't have that self-control, I could always use the 'ignore' function


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Lol, no worries. I think you should ask as many questions as you want - that's what this place is for, right? You don't have to worry about other people's blood pressure. I know I'll scroll past some members' posts myself, just to avoid the aggravation. But if I didn't have that self-control, I could always use the 'ignore' function


Thank you, that's another flaw of mine. I can't let anything go, I must have the last word. I will start ignoring anything that's not nice. 


Selzer, you're right, as usual. I def don't have the assertive manner, I'm a diff personality. That's another reason why trainer didn't work for me, he did fine with him, but doesn't always listen to me. I'm sure I'm not projecting anything worth listening to. 

But I'm also not giving up, I know I can get him to where i want him to be. As you said, there are many diff styles and they all work. I'm sure there are dog owners out there without the leader personality that have well trained dogs. 

I appreciate all the criticism, it's all sinking in and I'm def not arguing about anything that has to do with training, in case it comes off that way. 


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Thank you, that's another flaw of mine. I can't let anything go, I must have the last word. I will start ignoring anything that's not nice.
> 
> 
> Selzer, you're right, as usual. I def don't have the assertive manner, I'm a diff personality. That's another reason why trainer didn't work for me, he did fine with him, but doesn't always listen to me. I'm sure I'm not projecting anything worth listening to.
> 
> But I'm also not giving up, I know I can get him to where i want him to be. As you said, there are many diff styles and they all work. I'm sure there are dog owners out there without the leader personality that have well trained dogs.
> 
> I appreciate all the criticism, it's all sinking in and I'm def not arguing about anything that has to do with training, in case it comes off that way.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Have you checked out NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free? It may help you get started in learning how to be an effective leader to your dog.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Have you checked out NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free? It may help you get started in learning how to be an effective leader to your dog.


I've been doing it ever since i got him. From everything I'm describing it might sound worse than it really is, I tend to be hard on myself. So I'm sure I'm doing most things right. 

But I do not have a leader personality, that's just the truth. I'm not anything like Cesar Milan, for example. 


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## RocketDog

DaniFani said:


> Oh my goodness....lala, your ability to take a thread and take the craziest spin on it just floors me lol. When I said we should open another thread I was speaking about a thread debating the responsibilities of owners who take their dog's to dog parks, any inherent risks, and potential liabilities. I don't know why you are so set on talking about dogs humping lol....the original thread was a dog pack that went barreling into a dog(akita) standing next to his owner, and the akita bit the OP's dog. You and other's said the Akita should "pay bills and then some" and I stated that imo going to a dog park involves inherent risks, and that having the dog bit is one of them.
> 
> I also brought up the reading dog language book, because I think a lot of owners "think" they are great at reading dog language, when they really aren't. And that this lack of knowledge and experience leads to owners putting their dog in bad situations, unknowingly, and then wanting to sue another owner because their dog was bit. Again, not sure why humping keeps being brought up. And the OP of the other post stated that she had no intention of going after the Akita's owner because her dog and another barreled into him and his owner, and if the rolls were reversed she couldn't say her dog wouldn't have reacted the same.
> 
> *I am now starting to understand why so many "seasoned" posters here tell newer members to slow their role, get some experience and knowledge, and really think about what they are posting about so passionately and vehemently. Plus, you seem to jump to conclusions and assumptions very quickly, and I have seen many many times of you getting very heated about something that has really nothing to do with the original topic or message an OP was trying to convey.*



More would do well to take this stance.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> I've been doing it ever since i got him. From everything I'm describing it might sound worse than it really is, I tend to be hard on myself. So I'm sure I'm doing most things right.
> 
> But I do not have a leader personality, that's just the truth. I'm not anything like Cesar Milan, for example.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is a little booklet by Patricia McConnel that I like to give puppy buyers, it is not about being like Cesar Milan. Dogs need to see you as being in charge of the situation, like a 2 year old needs to see a parent who makes them feel secure. 

If the dog does not think you have things covered, he might feel that he needs to protect himself, and then he will be reactive toward children, adults, other dogs. They can read us, they read us when we are unsocial, when we are afraid, when we are confident. 

Leader of the Pack book | Dog Training Books | Patricia McConnell


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## JackandMattie

selzer said:


> This is a little booklet by Patricia McConnel that I like to give puppy buyers, it is not about being like Cesar Milan. Dogs need to see you as being in charge of the situation, like a 2 year old needs to see a parent who makes them feel secure.
> 
> If the dog does not think you have things covered, he might feel that he needs to protect himself, and then he will be reactive toward children, adults, other dogs. They can read us, they read us when we are unsocial, when we are afraid, when we are confident.
> 
> Leader of the Pack book | Dog Training Books | Patricia McConnell


This is an excellent booklet and easy read!! Selzer has given you some seriously good advice. 

And it's okay to not know. It's okay, especially here in the forum, not to have the last word. I learn a lot more when I be quiet and read 


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> This is a little booklet by Patricia McConnel that I like to give puppy buyers, it is not about being like Cesar Milan. Dogs need to see you as being in charge of the situation, like a 2 year old needs to see a parent who makes them feel secure.
> 
> If the dog does not think you have things covered, he might feel that he needs to protect himself, and then he will be reactive toward children, adults, other dogs. They can read us, they read us when we are unsocial, when we are afraid, when we are confident.
> 
> Leader of the Pack book | Dog Training Books | Patricia McConnell


Thank you, I will read it. I def subscribe to the pack leader idea, not the alpha stuff though. 
And I def believe that if they don't feel like they're protected then they will become fear aggressive. I think that's what happened to my boy and I'm hoping that now that he sees that I'm protecting him I can undo the damage


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## lalachka

JackandMattie said:


> This is an excellent booklet and easy read!! Selzer has given you some seriously good advice.
> 
> And it's okay to not know. It's okay, especially here in the forum, not to have the last word. I learn a lot more when I be quiet and read
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Def will. She did give lots of good advice, as a few others. I appreciate it all, none of it is wasted. 

I'm working on myself about the last word, it's hard to change habits like that but I'm trying)))))


I just wanted to say that my boy is amazing!!!! I'm at the park now, taking a break so he can dig)))))) he's so responsive to everything, he's just amazing to be around and watch. I'm just being impatient, that's all. Like I caught myself getting disappointed that he didn't come to me 3 times out of 10 and I had to pull him to me (he's on long leash now) and I had to remind myself that it's been less than a week. So I think I'm just being tough on the both of us. 



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## lalachka

first of all, i just bought the book, waiting for it to come to my phone.

but i have a question about COME on a long leash. what if he doesn't come, do i ignore or do i pull him to me after 3 seconds? (i saw somewhere that dogs have 3 seconds to do a command).

if i do pull him, do i treat him once he's near me? the idea is to always treat them when they come and to never be mad at them no matter what they did so they always want to come, right?

so if i had to pull him to me (not even all the way, just give him a pull to get his attention. he's on a 30 feet leash) do i still treat him once he's near me?


ETA i think i should've posted this on the other thread, the WHAT TO DO WHEN. i'm not sure how this thread got switched to dog training advice


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## lalachka

lalachka said:


> so if i had to pull him to me (not even all the way, just give him a pull to get his attention. he's on a 30 feet leash) do i still treat him once he's near me?


the reason i would think i should treat him once he's near me because there are some trainers that just treat dogs when they do something they want them to do, even if they didn't ask for it.

for example, every time a dog comes by me, whether i called him or not, some trainers will say to treat, that way the dog knows that when he's near me he gets good things.

so that's where the above is coming from


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## JakodaCD OA

I would do both and have done both..If I'm using a long line and call the dog and it doesn't come, I give it a little tug to get their attention and I turn and start running/going in the opposite direction..that usually 'peaks' their interest, and they follow..

I also do alot of free shaping, which is, whenever the dog does something I want without asking, say the dog goes into a down, just hanging out and the dog goes down, I say "GOOD DOWN" and TREAT... dogs aren't stupid, they figure out soon enough, "wow I went into a down and she treated me,,and she didn't even ask!"..


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would do both and have done both..If I'm using a long line and call the dog and it doesn't come, I give it a little tug to get their attention and I turn and start running/going in the opposite direction..that usually 'peaks' their interest, and they follow..
> 
> I also do alot of free shaping, which is, whenever the dog does something I want without asking, say the dog goes into a down, just hanging out and the dog goes down, I say "GOOD DOWN" and TREAT... dogs aren't stupid, they figure out soon enough, "wow I went into a down and she treated me,,and she didn't even ask!"..


Thank you)))) in my experience all these nuances come up that are usually not described in videos or articles and I find myself stuck. I'm not good at thinking at my feet, I have to know what to do in advance. 

So if you had to pull your dog after you said COME or ran the other way and he finally made it by you, would you treat?


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## lalachka

lalachka said:


> Thank you)))) in my experience all these nuances come up that are usually not described in videos or articles and I find myself stuck. I'm not good at thinking at my feet, I have to know what to do in advance.
> 
> So if you had to pull your dog after you said COME or ran the other way and he finally made it by you, would you treat?


Like if I do treat after he didnt listen then what am I teaching him? Like someone (sorry, forgot who) said for a diff problem, all he's learning is that he can ignore a command and then still get a treat on a 2nd try or even with me pulling him. 

If I don't treat then he did end up making it by me and didnt get a reward. 

Do you see my dilemma?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Yes, I see your dilemma, its about timing and picking and choosing your battles. If you think he deserves a treat, give him one, if not, turn around walk away do nothing. 

If I tell my dog to sit, and she doesn't, I turn around and walk away, wait a minute and try it again. 

I have to add, I NEVER repeat commands,, I always start out in a place where there are no distractions, and I have their attention..I slowly work in distractions after I've got some pretty solid basic obedience on them.

I always use something that is high value, for my aussies it's food, they'll do anything for food Masi is toy motivated, she will do ANYTHING for a tug/frisbee, that is their reward. 

If your dog is food motivated, use something ONLY for training that is high value, I used to use, frozen italian meatballs, nuke a few, cut them up in pieces...Something they don't normally get IF they are food motivated.

The whole idea is to make YOURSELF more important than anything else, when that happens, training is VERY easy.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> Yes, I see your dilemma, its about timing and picking and choosing your battles. *If you think he deserves a treat, give him one, if not, turn around walk away do nothing.*
> 
> If I tell my dog to sit, and she doesn't, I turn around and walk away, wait a minute and try it again.
> 
> I have to add, I NEVER repeat commands,, I always start out in a place where there are no distractions, and I have their attention..I slowly work in distractions after I've got some pretty solid basic obedience on them.
> 
> I always use something that is high value, for my aussies it's food, they'll do anything for food Masi is toy motivated, she will do ANYTHING for a tug/frisbee, that is their reward.
> 
> If your dog is food motivated, use something ONLY for training that is high value, I used to use, frozen italian meatballs, nuke a few, cut them up in pieces...Something they don't normally get IF they are food motivated.
> 
> The whole idea is to make YOURSELF more important than anything else, when that happens, training is VERY easy.


ok, i understand most of it, just a few more questions

that's the thing, i don't know if he deserves it or not))))) 

the idea is to make him want to be close to me by treating him every time he ends up being close. so i'd say based on that i want to treat him every time he's close.

but at the same time if he didn't come and i had to make him then he doesn't deserve a treat. but i also want to reinforce the good feeling of being next to me.

am i over thinking it? in my mind i'm not, i really don't know how to solve this one.


i understand about starting with NO distractions but question. are you saying that i shoudn't use the COME command outside even on the 30 ft leash until i get him to come EVERY TIME at home?


ETA and i shouldn't use ANY command outside until i can get that command 100% at home?


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> This is a little booklet by Patricia McConnel that I like to give puppy buyers, it is not about being like Cesar Milan. Dogs need to see you as being in charge of the situation, like a 2 year old needs to see a parent who makes them feel secure.
> 
> If the dog does not think you have things covered, he might feel that he needs to protect himself, and then he will be reactive toward children, adults, other dogs. They can read us, they read us when we are unsocial, when we are afraid, when we are confident.
> 
> Leader of the Pack book | Dog Training Books | Patricia McConnell


i just finished reading, i'm already doing everything in that book, i'm not saying it's a bad nook but everything she's suggesting is already available on the net and i've read it before.

i don't know who stole it from who)))))

as far as protecting him, i've started to not let anyone by him, put myself between him and peopple walking down the street, walking the other way when i see dogs. i'm curious to see if he will pick up on it within a month or so and whether he will stop barking and feeling like he needs to protect himself.


----------



## selzer

Some of us do not use the word COME, unless we know the do must come, is connected. So we say Fido, COME, and if the dog comes, praise and treat. If the dog does not start to come right away, a small tug, to get his attention back on you and if he comes, yes, praise and treat -- that is for now, later on, when he comes reliably, then you phase out the treats. 

If my dog does not come after a short tug, I would walk back to the dog, and heel the dog to where I want the dog to be, and then try again. 

Sometimes dogs get the STAY command just a little too good. And they think the COME command is a trick. For some dogs, people use STAY, when they are going to come back to the dog, and WAIT, when they are going to call the dog to them. 

COME and STAY are life skills, that is, they can actually save your dog's live. COME is one of the most important skills you can teach your dog. Too many people call the dog to them to reprimand the dog. Big mistake. The dog learns that he gets punished when he comes. Some people use the word COME when they cannot enforce it, and then they add to it the chase game because they know they need to enforce their command, so they go and try to catch the dog. This is great fun FOR THE DOG. Only this is NOT what you want to be doing when your dog slips its collar in a busy parking lot. 

And sometimes people get a bit worried about giving treats to dogs when they do not do it perfectly too soon. If the dog comes, give it a treat. For now, the dog needs to think that something fabulous is going to happen every time that word is used. Later, you can wait until his butt is perfectly down in front of you, and the distance is right, and his eye is focused on your face, and he performs the perfect finish, before he gets a good-boy, and maybe a tid bit. But you need to see that dog coming right to you every time before you start treating only for the best or quickest come. 

Another way to teach the come, is when you are walking, regular leash, stop and back up, and call the dog, FIDO, Come!, or COME FRONT. He turns and comes to your front. This is just the first step. But when he does this come front perfectly, you start increasing the distance and adding a WAIT, before calling, and then adding finishes. 

It's a life skill. You want to get it 100%. 

Today, I was out with an almost six-month-old pup. She has no training. I had her in my sister's back yard which has two toddlers, and no fence. I unhooked her and let her play with the girls. I never told her to COME. But if she got too far away, from me, I called her name. Just calling her name caused her to stop what she was doing and trot over to me. No treats -- I didn't have any on me. I just gave her pets, and praise and let her go again. We were out there for about and hour and a half, no problem. I will teach her come, but I already have it. For me, COME will be the action of coming to me and sitting in front of me close enough for me to touch her collar. She will start classes on the 21st. 

Don't even ask me why the little bitch was walking with me with a loose leash at petsmart and pet co today. Usually they pull like freight trains. And she was just laid back and lay herself down while I was making the tags. I was pleased and flummuxed at the first time I took her to any such place. Maybe she's sick. But she did put up quite a fight when they tried to bathe her, so they called me and I came and got her and took her to the self-serve dog wash, and transfered her smelly dog stink onto my clothes, and gave her the business with the heavy controls and dryer. (At home, it's a lot gentler on her.) So I don't know, can't be too sick. 

But I digress. Puppies are fun, but they are also a lot of work. They need to trust you. And if they do, training is just fine tuning, working around other dogs, and people. I take them all to classes, even though most of teaching the various commands is second nature now. Each one is different, and I get something out of every class. 

Find some good classes.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> i just finished reading, i'm already doing everything in that book, i'm not saying it's a bad nook but everything she's suggesting is already available on the net and i've read it before.
> 
> i don't know who stole it from who)))))
> 
> as far as protecting him, i've started to not let anyone by him, put myself between him and peopple walking down the street, walking the other way when i see dogs. i'm curious to see if he will pick up on it within a month or so and whether he will stop barking and feeling like he needs to protect himself.


That shipping/transaction must have been lightning fast. 

I am not saying it was rocket science, (the rocket-science book cost more than $3.95) just something to get new puppy buyers off on the right foot when they bring home their pup. I have read some of her books as well. I thought of her, when you said you were not assertive, because I think her style might fit you. Not sure. 

Yes, you need to protect him from himself, certainly. But you need to build his confidence, both in himself, and in you. A confident dog is LESS likely to bark at, lunge, react to other dogs or people. If he is confident in you, then he will not feel the need to protect himself. This is about building a bond of trust between you and your dog. The best way is training your dog, setting him up for success and then praising him; being consistent; following through; disciplining yourself not to shout/punish/react negatively; and to expose the dog to distractions, at a distance where he will not react, but will slightly push him out of his comfort zone -- you can wait on decreasing the distance until you feel the bond improving.


----------



## lalachka

Selzer, I'm about to read your posts thoroughly while I'm on the train but I wanted to reply to your shipping comment. 

I rarely lie, I'm very uncomfortable doing it and not good at it and avoid it whenever I can. 

I didn't order it from your link, I went to amazon and got it sent to kindle on my phone. I also read lightning fast, it took me less than an hour. I didn't time myself but i'd say 15 mins


----------



## selzer

I was just surprised, it could come so fast. But, I am forgetting the technology stuff nowadays. I remember paging through catalogs, and putting the numbers down, and sending them snail-mail with a check, and then waiting for UPS to come weeks later. 

I wonder if anyone would know what to do with an order by mail nowadays. 

Even with pay-pal, and e-bay, or amazon, stuff usually takes a couple of days to get to my neck of the woods. 

And the name is Selzer -- no t. Sorry, but I've had it in parts of six decades and am a bit partial to it.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> I was just surprised, it could come so fast. But, I am forgetting the technology stuff nowadays. I remember paging through catalogs, and putting the numbers down, and sending them snail-mail with a check, and then waiting for UPS to come weeks later.
> 
> I wonder if anyone would no what to do with an order by mail nowadays.
> 
> Even with pay-pal, and e-bay, or amazon, stuff usually takes a couple of days to get to my neck of the woods.
> 
> And the name is Selzer -- no t. Sorry, but I've had it in parts of six decades and am a bit partial to it.


I'm way too impatient to wait on shipping a book, I love reading and once I make up my mind I want to read it NOW!!!!
I know how to spell your name, i'd think you noticed that I never misspelled it. This time I didn't catch autocorrect in time and went back and fixed it afterwards. 

Anyway, I see there's a bunch of good advice, can't wait to read it. Will reply once I get off the train


----------



## selzer

Geesh, new technology is messing with my name! There ought to be a law!


----------



## lalachka

OK, excuse this mess, I'm typing this on my phone but I wanted to reply to a lot of pieces 


'Some of us do not use the word COME, unless we know the do must come, is connected. So we say Fido, COME, and if the dog comes, praise and treat. If the dog does not start to come right away, a small tug, to get his attention back on you and if he comes, yes, praise and treat -- that is for now, later on, when he comes reliably, then you phase out the treats. '

I have no problem treating him every time for months to come. I just want to make sure I'm doing it the right way and not confusing him and reinforcing wrong behaviors. 

If I understood you right, I should treat him even if I had to give him a tug and even if he ignored me the first time? I'm just worried that this will teach him that he can ignore me the first time and still get treats on the 2nd try. 



'If my dog does not come after a short tug, I would walk back to the dog, and heel the dog to where I want the dog to be, and then try again. '

Thank you for this, i wasn't sure what to do in this case. Like i'd tug, he starts walking towards me but doesn't make it all the way and I stand there wondering what I should've done. 

'Sometimes dogs get the STAY command just a little too good. And they think the COME command is a trick. For some dogs, people use STAY, when they are going to come back to the dog, and WAIT, when they are going to call the dog to them. '

I do see him sometimes not understanding that I released him but I have so many pressing issues to deal with that I put this on a back burner (teaching difference between STAY and WAIT)

By the way, how many commands can I teach at one time? Like if I'm working on 2 commands that he still doesn't have reliably, how many more can I introduce without overwhelming him?



'COME and STAY are life skills, that is, they can actually save your dog's live. COME is one of the most important skills you can teach your dog. '

I know!!! That's why I'm asking so many questions about it, I want to make sure I do it right and that he comes every single time, no matter what he's doing. 



'Some people use the word COME when they cannot enforce it, and then they add to it the chase game because they know they need to enforce their command, so they go and try to catch the dog. This is great fun FOR THE DOG. Only this is NOT what you want to be doing when your dog slips its collar in a busy parking lot. '

I've done this before, both chasing him all over and him enjoying it and calling him over while being sure he won't come. Talk about the definition of insanity. 



'And sometimes people get a bit worried about giving treats to dogs when they do not do it perfectly too soon. If the dog comes, give it a treat. For now, the dog needs to think that something fabulous is going to happen every time that word is used. Later, you can wait until his butt is perfectly down in front of you, and the distance is right, and his eye is focused on your face, and he performs the perfect finish, before he gets a good-boy, and maybe a tid bit. But you need to see that dog coming right to you every time before you start treating only for the best or quickest come. '

I have no problem with it, I always have treats on me, no exceptions. The way I look at it, treats are just an easy and fun way to teach him what I'm looking for. Once he knows it - I will phase them out and correct him if he refuses to comply. But that's a long way from now. Besides, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving him treats sometimes even when he's older when he does something very good. 


'Another way to teach the come, is when you are walking, regular leash, stop and back up, and call the dog, FIDO, Come!, or COME FRONT. He turns and comes to your front. This is just the first step. But when he does this come front perfectly, you start increasing the distance and adding a WAIT, before calling, and then adding finishes. '

He will be on long leash for the next few months, so everything I'm doing is always on leash. But what do you mean adding a WAIT and adding a finish?

'and transfered her smelly dog stink onto my clothes'

Lol, I love my boy's smell. I take a few sniffs every day for pleasure))))


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Geesh, new technology is messing with my name! There ought to be a law!


Lol yeah I saw your posts about the fridge with no defrost and no Internet. Not a bad way to live. Though I enjoy technology and I wouldn't have a job I love without it I still wish we can go back to times where Facebook wasn't a way to socialize. 

Not for me, I'm a loner. For my daughter It's sad to look at kids these days, they're missing so much small pleasures v


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> OK, excuse this mess, I'm typing this on my phone but I wanted to reply to a lot of pieces
> 
> 
> 'Some of us do not use the word COME, unless we know the do must come, is connected. So we say Fido, COME, and if the dog comes, praise and treat. If the dog does not start to come right away, a small tug, to get his attention back on you and if he comes, yes, praise and treat -- that is for now, later on, when he comes reliably, then you phase out the treats. '
> 
> I have no problem treating him every time for months to come. I just want to make sure I'm doing it the right way and not confusing him and reinforcing wrong behaviors. *You will not reinforce wrong behaviors or confuse him, he gets a treat for coming, whether he smelled the roses on route or not. If he comes, praise and treat. Coming to you is the most wonderful thing he can do, it trumps rolling on nasty dead frogs or eating goose poop. *
> 
> If I understood you right, I should treat him even if I had to give him a tug and even if he ignored me the first time? I'm just worried that this will teach him that he can ignore me the first time and still get treats on the 2nd try. *But why did he ignore, did you call his name first to get his attention and then give him the command. Either way, once you drew his attention back to what he is supposed to be doing, you are following through and ensuring that he does what you commanded. He does it, treat. For now. Maybe for months. But for now, even if you have to give him a tug, treat.
> 
> Ignoring you is when you say,
> You: Fido Sit.
> Dog: La de da de dum de dah
> 
> You: Sit?
> Dog: Oh, there's a butterfly...
> 
> You: SIT!
> Dog: In a minute, lady, I'm scratching my side now.
> 
> You: C'mon boy, sit.
> Dog: Is there something going on in that parking lot over there?
> 
> You: Sit, will you?
> Dog: Boy, my ear is tickling.
> 
> You: SIT, NOW!!!  OR I WILL BEAT THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF YOU!!!!
> Dog: Oh, you want my butt on the ground, it's there, it's there see.
> 
> 
> Giving a quick tug on the lead, or helping the dog get into the sit position does not constitute nagging, it is enforcing the command without doubling it. Praising after the dog gets into the correct position will not enforce ignoring you.
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 'If my dog does not come after a short tug, I would walk back to the dog, and heel the dog to where I want the dog to be, and then try again. '
> 
> Thank you for this, i wasn't sure what to do in this case. Like i'd tug, he starts walking towards me but doesn't make it all the way and I stand there wondering what I should've done.
> 
> 'Sometimes dogs get the STAY command just a little too good. And they think the COME command is a trick. For some dogs, people use STAY, when they are going to come back to the dog, and WAIT, when they are going to call the dog to them. '
> 
> I do see him sometimes not understanding that I released him but I have so many pressing issues to deal with that I put this on a back burner (teaching difference between STAY and WAIT) *When you are starting in training, is the time to decide to use a different word when you want the dog to come, rather than when you want to return to the dog. It is just a suggestion, but it can be helpful to some dogs.*
> 
> By the way, how many commands can I teach at one time? Like if I'm working on 2 commands that he still doesn't have reliably, how many more can I introduce without overwhelming him?
> 
> *Depends on the handler and on the dog. We like to keep training session short. 5 minutes, several times a day, sometimes 20 minutes. At class almost an hour. But generally, a short training class. Do something no more than three times. Then move on to something else. You can train SIT, DOWN, STAY, COME, LEAVE IT, and WATCH, all on the same day for the first time. What you do not want to do is to hook Down to STAY and walk 20 feet away, and then wait 2 minutes and then add a Come, not in the first session.
> 
> Remember, keep the training short. LEAVE IT is taught in every day stuff, EH, Leave it! Good.
> 
> Watch is something that you do to improve your dog's attention. Play with it, get the dog to look at your face, then treat, Good Watch! Next have him look at your eyes. Put the treats in your hands and hands out to parallel to the ground. Watch, wait for the dog to look at your face, treat good watch. Move on.
> 
> Sit. Good boy, good sit. Sit Stay. move in front of him. Good. When he is good at that. Move 3 feet away. Work it. Every couple of days make it more interesting for the dog. Slowly increase the distance and the length of time. Slowly add returns around your dog. Slowly make it tougher by moving to your right, moving to your left, moving in front of your dog.
> 
> Down, Start with getting him in the down position. Next stand up next to the dog.
> 
> There is no hurry to get from here to there. Take it slow. Work on two or three things, do each 3 times, and then move on.
> *
> 
> 
> 'COME and STAY are life skills, that is, they can actually save your dog's live. COME is one of the most important skills you can teach your dog. '
> 
> I know!!! That's why I'm asking so many questions about it, I want to make sure I do it right and that he comes every single time, no matter what he's doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Some people use the word COME when they cannot enforce it, and then they add to it the chase game because they know they need to enforce their command, so they go and try to catch the dog. This is great fun FOR THE DOG. Only this is NOT what you want to be doing when your dog slips its collar in a busy parking lot. '
> 
> I've done this before, both chasing him all over and him enjoying it and calling him over while being sure he won't come. Talk about the definition of insanity.
> 
> 
> 
> 'And sometimes people get a bit worried about giving treats to dogs when they do not do it perfectly too soon. If the dog comes, give it a treat. For now, the dog needs to think that something fabulous is going to happen every time that word is used. Later, you can wait until his butt is perfectly down in front of you, and the distance is right, and his eye is focused on your face, and he performs the perfect finish, before he gets a good-boy, and maybe a tid bit. But you need to see that dog coming right to you every time before you start treating only for the best or quickest come. '
> 
> I have no problem with it, I always have treats on me, no exceptions. The way I look at it, treats are just an easy and fun way to teach him what I'm looking for. Once he knows it - I will phase them out and correct him if he refuses to comply. But that's a long way from now. Besides, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving him treats sometimes even when he's older when he does something very good.
> 
> *Treats are fine. But eventually, your praise should be enough of a reward. Praise is ALWAYS available, and always can match the performance, and never runs out, and the dog doesn't realize that your pockets are empty, when praise is your main reward. But for now, treats will build that bond, and get the behaviors you want.*
> 
> 
> 'Another way to teach the come, is when you are walking, regular leash, stop and back up, and call the dog, FIDO, Come!, or COME FRONT. He turns and comes to your front. This is just the first step. But when he does this come front perfectly, you start increasing the distance and adding a WAIT, before calling, and then adding finishes. '
> 
> He will be on long leash for the next few months, so everything I'm doing is always on leash. But what do you mean adding a WAIT and adding a finish?
> 
> *I mean, after the dog comes every time when you back up and call, short distance and sits in front of you, then add a STAY or WAIT, and move a couple of feet away from him before giving the COME Command.
> 
> Adding a finish means that once the dog is sitting in front of you close enough to touch his head and collar, you can then tell him FINISH, and move your left foot back and guid him to turn toward your left side -- Heel position, and to sit his butt on the ground. Some people use FIND HEEL for this. The other finish is the around finish. You say, AROUND, and the dog goes to your right, behind your back and stops in a sit in Heel position on the left side. This is fine to do, but you do not need to work on this yet. Just pivot back to his side and walk off after he comes front for now.
> *
> 'and transfered her smelly dog stink onto my clothes'
> 
> Lol, I love my boy's smell. I take a few sniffs every day for pleasure))))


Well, she was smelling ok, until I thought she pooped in her crate back there while I was on the freeway. It went away so I thought, flatulance? uhg! Then she did it again. Uhg! But she never did poop. I was worried about that. Still, you give a dog a bath because it is time, and when she was wet, she did smell like dog, and when I finished, the car still smelled like dog because her smelly dog smell was all over me.


----------



## lalachka

First of all, thank you soooo much for this. as I said, I watch the videos, research training tips but then I run into issues that weren’t explained and think that I must be doing something wrong otherwise they’d mention it in the video.

Or maybe my boy is special in how he reacts to my training))))))

So I really appreciate you and everyone else taking the time to answer these endless questions.





selzer said:


> *But why did he ignore, did you call his name first to get his attention and then give him the command. Either way, once you drew his attention back to what he is supposed to be doing, you are following through and ensuring that he does what you commanded. He does it, treat. For now. Maybe for months. But for now, even if you have to give him a tug, treat. *
> 
> _*Ignoring you is when you say, *_
> _*You: Fido Sit.*_
> _*Dog: La de da de dum de dah*_
> 
> _*You: Sit?*_
> _*Dog: Oh, there's a butterfly...*_
> 
> _*You: SIT!*_
> _*Dog: In a minute, lady, I'm scratching my side now.*_
> 
> _*You: C'mon boy, sit.*_
> _*Dog: Is there something going on in that parking lot over there?*_
> 
> _*You: Sit, will you?*_
> _*Dog: Boy, my ear is tickling.*_
> 
> _*You: SIT, NOW!!! *_*OR I WILL BEAT THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF YOU!!!! **
> Dog: Oh, you want my butt on the ground, it's there, it's there see.
> 
> 
> Giving a quick tug on the lead, or helping the dog get into the sit position does not constitute nagging, it is enforcing the command without doubling it. Praising after the dog gets into the correct position will not enforce ignoring you. *


Lol, yep, this is about how it goes sometimes. 
No, I don’t call his name, I say COME. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn’t. if he doesn’t – I tug, if he still doesn’t – I pull him all the way to me.

Perfect!!!! I’d love to treat him every time he’s near me, to me it makes perfect sense. 

Sorry, I know I’m splitting hairs here but I must have a game plan.
So every time he comes near me I treat him. What if he then took half of a step away and came right back, treat again? What if he did that 10 times?

Do you see where I’m getting at? Like what if he spent 3 mins sitting by my side, is that rewarded somehow? How far away does he have to go for me to consider him coming back as him coming to me?

Are these all unnecessary questions? Am I overthinking this? The fact that I don’t see anyone else asking this is making me feel like I’m missing some obvious point.




selzer said:


> *When you are starting in training, is the time to decide to use a different word when you want the dog to come, rather than when you want to return to the dog. It is just a suggestion, but it can be helpful to some dogs.*


What do you mean when I want him to come rather than me return to him? Like COME if I want him to come and WAIT if I want him to stay where he is and wait for me to come or give him a command?








selzer said:


> *Depends on the handler and on the dog. We like to keep training session short. 5 minutes, several times a day, sometimes 20 minutes. At class almost an hour. But generally, a short training class. **Do something no more than three times. **Then move on to something else. You can train SIT, DOWN, STAY, COME, LEAVE IT, and WATCH, all on the same day for the first time. **What you do not want to do is to hook Down to STAY and walk 20 feet away, and then wait 2 minutes and then add a Come, not in the first session**. *
> 
> _*Remember, keep the training short. LEAVE IT is taught in every day stuff, EH, Leave it! Good. *_
> 
> _*Watch is something that you do to improve your dog's attention. Play with it, get the dog to look at your face, then treat, Good Watch! Next have him look at your eyes. Put the treats in your hands and hands out to parallel to the ground. Watch, wait for the dog to look at your face, treat good watch. Move on. *_
> 
> _*Sit. Good boy, good sit. Sit Stay. move in front of him. Good. When he is good at that. Move 3 feet away. Work it. Every couple of days make it more interesting for the dog. Slowly increase the distance and the length of time. *_*Slowly add returns around your dog. Slowly make it tougher by moving to your right, moving to your left, moving in front of your dog. *
> 
> _*Down, Start with getting him in the down position. Next stand up next to the dog. *_
> 
> _*There is no hurry to get from here to there. Take it slow. Work on two or three things, do each 3 times, and then move on. *_


Thank you!!!!! especially for the red part, I wasn’t doing that, I must’ve said COME 30 times tonight. 

Can you please explain the green part?

Also, I’ve seen many times people say this, that they use GOOD before the command. Like leerburg would say GOOD OUTSIDE when the dog pooped in the right spot in the yard. Do you think a dog understands this? it’d seem like it’s a complex thing for them to get.

Like what do you think he’s understanding when you say GOOD WATCH?

Can you please explain the brown part? Add returns to what command? And then stand up next to him when he’s in a DOWN and do what?




selzer said:


> *I mean, after the dog comes every time when you back up and call, short distance and sits in front of you, then add a STAY or WAIT, and move a couple of feet away from him before giving the COME Command. *
> 
> *Adding a finish means that once the dog is sitting in front of you close enough to touch his head and collar, you can then tell him FINISH, and move your left foot back and guid him to turn toward your left side -- Heel position, and to sit his butt on the ground. Some people use FIND HEEL for this. The other finish is the around finish. You say, AROUND, and the dog goes to your right, behind your back and stops in a sit in Heel position on the left side. **This is fine to do, but you do not need to work on this yet. Just pivot back to his side and walk off after he comes front for now.*


Again, thank you so much for this!!!! I was getting ahead of myself again and trying to have him sit by my side when he comes.


----------



## selzer

Sorry, was babysitting yesterday. 

I will try to answer this in short bursts. A training class will have other people in it who will be learning the same things and will benefit from your questions, and you will benefit from theirs.

"*No, I don’t call his name, I say COME. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn’t. if he doesn’t – I tug, if he still doesn’t – I pull him all the way to me*. Use his name to get his attention, and then use the word, COME. Fido, COME. Rule of thumb is, if you want the dog to move, use the name, if you do not want the dog to move, don't use the name. 

So, Fido, SIT. GOOD SIT. STAY.

Fido, DOWN. 
Fido, COME.
EH! LEAVE IT! 
QUIET!
SETTLE!
GENTLE.

 
Perfect!!!! I’d love to treat him every time he’s near me, to me it makes perfect sense. 

Treat him when he is near you, yes. But treat him when you have told him to come. There is a difference. You can always give the dog a treat -- but he should not solicit treats from you and be rewarded for that. You can give him treats when he is near you, but when you call him, if he comes, even if you had to jog away from him to get him to you, treat. 

Sorry, I know I’m splitting hairs here but I must have a game plan.
So every time he comes near me I treat him. What if he then took half of a step away and came right back, treat again? What if he did that 10 times? Video tape it and send it to the famous dog tricks. 

Dogs don't think this way. They are smart yes, but they are also simple and honest. They do not plan, well if she give me a treat for coming, I can just step away and come back and she will be a PEZ dispenser. You CAN train your dog to do this, but you would have to want for him to do this and actually train it. Remember, you are treating the dog for coming AFTER you called him, whether you added the COME or not. If you called the dog and he came, then treat him. If you let the dog take half a step and called him again, and he came, then treat him again. 
 
Do you see where I’m getting at? Like what if he spent 3 mins sitting by my side, is that rewarded somehow? How far away does he have to go for me to consider him coming back as him coming to me? You can give your dog treats for sitting calmly at your side, Good boy, he is doing what you want. If you told him to STAY, then well, three minutes is way too long at this point for him to be expected to hold a stay, but I would treat at after I returned to the dog, and praised and released him, then I would give a tidbit. Usually for stay, we do not show the treat, we do not have a treat in our hand, that makes the stay very hard for the dog, he wants to come and get his treat. So leave the treat in the pocket and after you give the OK, then give him the treat. 

Are these all unnecessary questions? Am I overthinking this? The fact that I don’t see anyone else asking this is making me feel like I’m missing some obvious point."

Lots of people have been around the block a few times before. Some are on their first dog, some on their first GSD, some on their first puppy. Most of them do take classes for their first training experience.


----------



## selzer

Quote:
Originally Posted by *selzer*  
_ *When you are starting in training, is the time to decide to use a different word when you want the dog to come, rather than when you want to return to the dog. It is just a suggestion, but it can be helpful to some dogs.*_

Quote "What do you mean when I want him to come rather than me return to him? Like COME if I want him to come and WAIT if I want him to stay where he is and wait for me to come or give him a command?"

The command is STAY or WAIT. 

Some use one command for both. 

One use STAY for DONT MOVE A MUSCLE, STAY IN POSITION, UNTIL I RELEASE YOU.

Some use WAIT as a command that the dog must wait until you give him a command that releases him to move. 

I use STAY for when I want the dog to SIT, or DOWN, in that position while I walk away, for a length of time 1-3 minutes, return and then release the dog. 

I use WAIT with some dogs, when I expect to move so many feet away and then give the command for the dog come to me. 

I am sorry this is so confusing. 
 
A STAY will be followed by OK or whatever release word you use. 
A WAIT will be follwoed by a command that causes the dog to move, like COME!


----------



## lalachka

no problem but i was hoping you'd reply at some point)))))



selzer said:


> Rule of thumb is, if you want the dog to move, use the name, if you do not want the dog to move, don't use the name.


thank you for this





selzer said:


> If you called the dog and he came, then treat him. If you let the dog take half a step and called him again, and he came, then treat him again.


i have one last confusion about this whole thing. i understand what to do if i called him. what if i didn't call him and he came by me, moved away a few stepf to sniff, came by my feet again, moved away again.

if the idea is to treat the dog anytime he does something you want even if you didn't ask for it, then i'd have to treat him every time he ended up by my side after taking these few steps. no?


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *selzer*
> _ *When you are starting in training, is the time to decide to use a different word when you want the dog to come, rather than when you want to return to the dog. It is just a suggestion, but it can be helpful to some dogs.*_
> 
> Quote "What do you mean when I want him to come rather than me return to him? Like COME if I want him to come and WAIT if I want him to stay where he is and wait for me to come or give him a command?"
> 
> The command is STAY or WAIT.
> 
> Some use one command for both.
> 
> One use STAY for DONT MOVE A MUSCLE, STAY IN POSITION, UNTIL I RELEASE YOU.
> 
> Some use WAIT as a command that the dog must wait until you give him a command that releases him to move.
> 
> I use STAY for when I want the dog to SIT, or DOWN, in that position while I walk away, for a length of time 1-3 minutes, return and then release the dog.
> 
> I use WAIT with some dogs, when I expect to move so many feet away and then give the command for the dog come to me.
> 
> I am sorry this is so confusing.
> 
> A STAY will be followed by OK or whatever release word you use.
> A WAIT will be follwoed by a command that causes the dog to move, like COME!


 
no)))) it's actually not, i understand (or i think i do)

thank you very much for all this advice, i'm using all of it so it's not going to waste


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *selzer*
> _ *Depends on the handler and on the dog. We like to keep training session short. 5 minutes, several times a day, sometimes 20 minutes. At class almost an hour. But generally, a short training class. **Do something no more than three times. **Then move on to something else. You can train SIT, DOWN, STAY, COME, LEAVE IT, and WATCH, all on the same day for the first time. **What you do not want to do is to hook Down to STAY and walk 20 feet away, and then wait 2 minutes and then add a Come, not in the first session**. *
> 
> *Remember, keep the training short. LEAVE IT is taught in every day stuff, EH, Leave it! Good. *
> 
> *Watch is something that you do to improve your dog's attention. Play with it, get the dog to look at your face, then treat, Good Watch! Next have him look at your eyes. Put the treats in your hands and hands out to parallel to the ground. Watch, wait for the dog to look at your face, treat good watch. Move on. *
> 
> *Sit. Good boy, good sit. Sit Stay. move in front of him. Good. When he is good at that. Move 3 feet away. Work it. Every couple of days make it more interesting for the dog. Slowly increase the distance and the length of time. **Slowly add returns around your dog. Slowly make it tougher by moving to your right, moving to your left, moving in front of your dog. *
> 
> *Down, Start with getting him in the down position. Next stand up next to the dog. *
> 
> *There is no hurry to get from here to there. Take it slow. Work on two or three things, do each 3 times, and then move on. *_
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!!!!! especially for the red part, I wasn’t doing that, I must’ve said COME 30 times tonight.
> 
> Can you please explain the green part? *You will not get good results and you will overwhelm your pup if you try to do too much too soon. You will get to the point where you are tying commands together, and when you will be able to move across the field, and when you will be able to wait five minutes or more, but you start with baby-steps.*
> 
> Also, I’ve seen many times people say this, that they use GOOD before the command. Like leerburg would say GOOD OUTSIDE when the dog pooped in the right spot in the yard. Do you think a dog understands this? it’d seem like it’s a complex thing for them to get.
> 
> *Yes, dogs understand Good. Good Sit. Good boy. I do not use it for everything. Sometimes I say YES! in a happy voice when they do the right thing. Good girl or Good boy is always good. Of course, like loading the clicker (look up clicker training), you have to use GOOD in a Good manner so that they get it. But it should be there.
> 
> For potty training, I ask Do you want to go OUTSIDE? The outside is given an accent -- not shouting, but kind of drawn out and curled up into a question.
> 
> Then when we get outside, I tell them, Go Pee Pee Poo Poo, or Go Potty.
> 
> After the deed is done, I might say Good Potty, but usually, I say something like, Oh you went Pee Pee OUTSIDE (drawn out but happy), Good Girl, Good Pee Pee outside, What a good girl you are, you went potty outside.
> 
> Then I say, Go Poo Poo too.
> 
> And I repeat that praise for poop too. It works for me, and I really don't care what the neighbors or by standers think. Most like, they have trained puppies before too.
> 
> *
> Like what do you think he’s understanding when you say GOOD WATCH? *He understands that he did what you wanted him to do. He understands that looking at your face when you say WATCH gets him a treat, or a praise. It is a good exercise, because before the dog starts to agress toward the little kid running by, you will (on lead) tell him, WATCH. Not loud or angry, but in a command tone, and he will know that he is supposed to put his eyes toward your face. Good WATCH, now here's your cookie.
> 
> 
> *
> Can you please explain the brown part? Add returns to what command? And then stand up next to him when he’s in a DOWN and do what?


When the dog is in front of you, you or your dog will have to get back to the heel position -- dog on your left side sitting. So, you have said, COME FRONT, and the dog is sitting in front of you. 

The returns are:
1. STAY -- Dog stays, and you pivot to the dog's side. 
2. STAY -- Dog stays, and you walk around the dog to the dog's right side at the shoulder. 
3. FINISH -- Dog walks to your left and turns into you and finishes by sitting in HEEL position.
4. AROUND -- Dog walks to your right and behind you and comes up and sits on your left in the HEEL position. 


When the dog is across the room, on a stay, you will either return to your dog -- usually around him and into the HEEL position. Or, you will call the dog to your front. 

But start with the baby steps. The dog needs to come and get treats and pets when he comes to the front of you. When he is doing this, add a SIT. When this is pretty solid, start with your finishes. 


As for the Down -- Baby steps, use a treat to lure him into the DOWN position. When he gets that, give a quick STAY and stand up next to him. That's fine for now. Eventually, you will be able to walk across the room and have him stay in position until you return and release him. But for now, start with teaching him that DOWN means butt and elbows on the ground, and for that a tasty treat is given.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> no problem but i was hoping you'd reply at some point)))))
> 
> 
> 
> thank you for this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have one last confusion about this whole thing. i understand what to do if i called him. what if i didn't call him and he came by me, moved away a few stepf to sniff, came by my feet again, moved away again.
> 
> if the idea is to treat the dog anytime he does something you want even if you didn't ask for it, then i'd have to treat him every time he ended up by my side after taking these few steps. no?


Others are more positive in their training than I am. 

Some treat the dog whenever the dog does something they want the dog to do. Some of us would have very fat dogs this way. 

I use my voice and say Good Girl, Good Sit, Good Quiet. Etc. If the dog is being calm and good and doing what I want, but I did not actually tell her what I wanted. 

I use treats only when I am training puppies or training something new. And then I give treats when I tell the dog to do something, when the dog completes the manoever, he gets the treat, even if I helped him get from A to B. Treats are for doing what I ASKED, not for coming up to me and sitting pretty or begging.


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> When the dog is in front of you, you or your dog will have to get back to the heel position -- dog on your left side sitting. So, you have said, COME FRONT, and the dog is sitting in front of you.
> 
> The returns are:
> 1. STAY -- Dog stays, and you pivot to the dog's side.
> 2. STAY -- Dog stays, and you walk around the dog to the dog's right side at the shoulder.
> 3. FINISH -- Dog walks to your left and turns into you and finishes by sitting in HEEL position.
> 4. AROUND -- Dog walks to your right and behind you and comes up and sits on your left in the HEEL position.
> 
> 
> When the dog is across the room, on a stay, you will either return to your dog -- usually around him and into the HEEL position. Or, you will call the dog to your front.
> 
> But start with the baby steps. The dog needs to come and get treats and pets when he comes to the front of you. When he is doing this, add a SIT. When this is pretty solid, start with your finishes.
> 
> 
> As for the Down -- Baby steps, use a treat to lure him into the DOWN position. When he gets that, give a quick STAY and stand up next to him. That's fine for now. Eventually, you will be able to walk across the room and have him stay in position until you return and release him. But for now, start with teaching him that DOWN means butt and elbows on the ground, and for that a tasty treat is given.


 
ohhhh, got it. no, i'm not ready for the FINISH or the AROUND, let him freaking come to me first))))))

i'm already marker training (i don't use a clilcker but same thing). so i know that he knows GOOD and i say GOOD BOY 1000 times a day, i just didn't realize that they can understand us putting 2 words together. like GOOD OUTSIDE.

but i'll take your, guys, word for it, you (and leerburg))))) know what you're doing


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> Others are more positive in their training than I am.
> 
> Some treat the dog whenever the dog does something they want the dog to do. Some of us would have very fat dogs this way.
> 
> I use my voice and say Good Girl, Good Sit, Good Quiet. Etc. If the dog is being calm and good and doing what I want, but I did not actually tell her what I wanted.
> 
> I use treats only when I am training puppies or training something new. And then I give treats when I tell the dog to do something, when the dog completes the manoever, he gets the treat, even if I helped him get from A to B. Treats are for doing what I ASKED, not for coming up to me and sitting pretty or begging.


 
that was my confusion. you only treat for performing a command. my doggie is on a diet))))) he's skinny, i don't want to overload his joints. i just take into account the treats i'm giving him and just feed him less. or use his meal as treats.

ok, thank you))))) i have a computer brain, i must understand everything to the last detail. i'm not trying to drive you crazy.

seriously, i really appreciate everything


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## lalachka

selzer, i have another question))))) sorry, i go to the park every night, use the suggestions from here and more things come up.


i know that commands should be taught away from distractions first. does that mean that i shouldn't even try them in a high distraction environment until i have it 100% at home? or is it OK to also try it with distractions as long as i don't expect much?

what i'm saying is, am i somehow messing something up if i try a command with distractions and he's not 100% at it without distractions yet?

like the whole 'set him up for success' thing? if i'm in a high distraction environment then that's most likely setting him up for failure. 

so is it OK or should i slowly increase distractions?


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## G-burg

JakodaCD OA said:


> The best way to learn is go to an obedience class, YOU will learn how to handle your dog "doing it" is much more valuable than reading about it.


 
I think this is the best advice ever!! 

that way you have someone watching what you're doing and making sure you're doing it right.. they can also point out little things in the dog that we miss..


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## Lilie

G-burg said:


> I think this is the best advice ever!!
> 
> that way you have someone watching what you're doing and making sure you're doing it right.. they can also point out little things in the dog that we miss..


You also learn from other people's mistakes in the class. And realize your dog really isn't as horrible as you thought.


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## selzer

In class, you will have plenty of distractions to work around. We do have to work around distractions. But we have to be realisitic about our expectations, and be patient. It will come. Sometimes you will have to give a command that isn't perfect where there are distractions. Learning can take place around distractions, but it really depends on the dog and your skill as a handler as to how much of the learning you want to do in a calm, quiet setting first, before going to where there are more distractions.

If your dog is currently reacting to dogs or children, then you need to have some life skills 100% before trying to make the dog work around such distractions. And I would start with lesser distractions, at a distance -- after the command is learned. Commands like WATCH, COME, SIT, DOWN, STAY, have to be really, really good with a reactive dog before starting to work the dog nearer to distractions. You will need to get the dog's attention on you, and if the dog does not have a good bond going with you, then he will not be able to over-ride whatever is distracting him, to work with you. And you will have set yourself and the dog up for failure.

Really, you need to go to training classes with your puppy before he gets and bigger and more reactive than he already is. And I agree, that you can read all this stuff and try it out, but it will not get you where you need to be. You need to work your dog with a trainer looking on in the presence of other people with dogs. If you do not go soon, they will make you take special (more expensive) classes for reactive/aggressive dogs.


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## lalachka

Lilie said:


> You also learn from other people's mistakes in the class. And realize your dog really isn't as horrible as you thought.


I don't think he's horrible. He's amazing, there are 1000 things he does right, I just don't write about them. And anything he does wrong is my fault anyway. 

As far as classes - i'd go to Michael Ellis class, for example. It's not easy to find a good trainer and I have to be sure that I agree with the trainer's style for me to trust anything he says. There's so much bad advice going around, so it's about picking a person you trust. I don't know how to find that person. 

In the other thread I got put down for suggesting matching. This came from a trainer with 30 years experience given to me as advice for housebreaking. Apparently it's a horrible advice but how would I know that? I never ended up doing it so I never researched it but I did research other advice he gave me and some of it was said to be bad advice. 


I have to trust a trainer so that I can just take anything he says and go with it and I can't find one like that. 

That being said I'm actually doing pretty well with your guys' help. I'm a DIY kind of person, that's the style that works best with me in every area. Everything I know I learned myself by messing with it and asking questions. 

If it's a problem that I'm asking all these questions then I will stop.


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## lalachka

Lilie said:


> You also learn from other people's mistakes in the class. And realize your dog really isn't as horrible as you thought.


Also, I meant to say thank you for the advice in the other thread, to get the dog's attention and instead of trying to keep it on me with treats (which doesn't work) redirect to something else. 

I've been doing that when dogs and people pass by and it works!!!!


So I have hope. And he's on leash outside at all times.


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## selzer

The problem is that we are talking, and you are taking what we are saying and applying it to your dog. There can be communication breakdown there, and, there is another thing, you cannot see and we cannot see what a trainer could see by watching you interact with your dog. 

We can only tell you what worked for our dogs, and us. What will work for your dog and you might be the same, but something else could work a whole lot more effectively, and a trainer, a good trainer could figure that out by watching you interact with your dog. 

Also, we can pound away at the keys, but we cannot send holographs of ourselves and our dogs to work along side you and your dog, to provide the distractions of dogs and people, that a class setting provides. 

Really, you need to find someone who in general, has a balanced approach that you can live with, and go to classes. 

Most people say GSDs are not a good breed for first time dog owners. I think they can be, but having some experienced dog owners able to watch and give you pointers might make the difference there. 

You are having some troubles with your pup. Serious trouble. It is good you can see the good stuff too. But, don't ignore the reactivity, especially with kids that you mentioned.


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## lalachka

I totally agree, i'd love to have someone like that. I'm willing to pay for one on one sessions, actually, I emailed leerburg a while ago asking whether they would do a session with me on video. Nope)))) they don't do that. 

I do realize the need for someone to look at my dog but I don't know how to find a good trainer. I had 2 so far, I'm obviously not looking the right way. 


I'm not letting the reactivity go, I was horrified when I first saw him barking at a kid. He's on leash now always, I'm very mindful of others, I am always embarrassed when he barks at people or their dogs. 

I'm trying to do the right thing, I'm trying to learn all I can. I need training before he does. 

We have a pretty good bond, I mean I'm not experienced enough to judge but id say so. 

And I know I might be describing my problem wrong and you guys giving me wrong solutions because of it, but obviously same can happen with the trainer. 

I'd pay for a few sessions with a trainer if I knew he's really good. 

I'm seeing improvement. Tiny but it's there. I have hope. I do realize how important it is to address reactivity.


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## lalachka

Forgot to say, I also emailed a schutzhund club a few days ago, hoping I can get advice there. No reply. It's 2 hrs away but whatever, i'd drive a few times.

ETA since he didnt reply maybe you can tell me. Would I even be able to go there if I have no papers for my boy? I was hoping there are experienced people there that deal with this stuff all the time.


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## David Winners

Take some video of you working your dog through obedience exercises, you playing tug, and any problem behaviors, and post them to YouTube. Experienced people may be able to help you with your problems if they can see what is going on.

I've done video chat with several people and helped them through behavior issues. They were of the opinion they had nut case dogs, when in fact, they were inexperienced handlers with high drive working line dogs. With proper leadership, timing and techniques, they were just fine.

Just a suggestion. 

David Winners


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## lalachka

An amazing suggestion. Why didnt I think of it?

It will take a few days.

ETA thank you!!!!


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> An amazing suggestion. Why didnt I think of it?
> 
> It will take a few days.
> 
> ETA thank you!!!!




David Winners


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## selzer

Dog training/socialization/leadership does not happen in a vaccume. Dog training is not something you do two or three times. You need to go out there and train, week after week, and usually one set of six or eight classes is simply not enough. 

You may be able to get excellent advice for free by using people, video, and the internet. But even out here in the boonies, in one of the most depressed counties in one of the more depressed states, I have managed to find a half a dozen or more trainers for my dogs that I would recommend to other people. 

I think if you wanted to take your dog to the classes (that you both need) you would be able to find some, close enough to get to each week, within a reasonable price, and that follows a training method that you can live with. But you need to call around and talk to some real people.


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## lalachka

I don't mind paying for advice, I'm def not against trainers. My problem is finding one. As I said, I emailed leerburg asking for a training sessions, i'd go to Michael Ellis classes. 

So far my experience with trainers has not been the best. I'd prefer one on one but i'd go to a class if I knew for sure the trainer was amazing. 

I already have some aggression issues with my boy, I read a few threads here where a trainer would just stand there and do nothing as opposed to offering advice. And then threatening to kick them out of class. 

I can live without this experience. 

If someone I knew had a trainer they loved i'd go call them. 

I also emailed a schutzhund club. It's not like I don't want a trainer, i'd love to have a trainer I trust 100% work with us. 


I don't want to have to google everything a trainer says to see what others say (and then what? How do I know who's right?). I have to trust him all the way and then I will just go with it. 

Until then I'm on my own, researching and deciding for myself. 

I'd settle for group training if, again, the trainer was amazing. I looked at reviews online for both group and individuals and they all say good things about them (that's how I got the first 2). 


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## lalachka

I paid $100/hour for my sessions, it's def not about the money. 

Any group class will be much less. 


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## David Winners

Here is how I see it:

Training dogs is a skill that requires many techniques, both physical and mental. Every dog is different. Every trainer is different. These techniques, or tools that are used to communicate with the dog, are accumulated over time and through experience and continued education. When you pay for training, you are paying the trainer for this experience that you lack.

You are going to have to just get out there and train. Pick a trainer and go. Use references and an initial interview with the trainer to decide if you trust them. Anytime you feel uncomfortable with what the trainer is doing, speak to the trainer about the situation and go from there. Don't do anything with your dog until you understand what is happening and agree with the plan of action. Feel free to bounce any ideas off the membership here to aid in your decisions.

Just get out there and do it. You have a learning curve to overcome, and that isn't going to happen with a keyboard. You need to have a leash in your hands 

JMHO

David Winners


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## lalachka

I just might. I was disappointed after the 2nd trainer, I lost hope that I will find one that works for us. 

Might as well try another one. They all have good reviews. I will see what happens out of this. 


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## selzer

You need to pick 12 in your area, call them all, and ask them questions:

Do you require a certain type of collar? 

Do you use treats?

What kind of corrections do you suggest?

What kinds of dogs do you have experience with?

How long have you been training?

What type of classes do you offer besides basic? 

Do you allow interaction between dogs during the class?

The thing is, anyone who tell you they are amazing, run from -- that individual is probably an arrogant prig who will most likely have not tolerance at all for you, unless you think they walk on water and treat them as such. 

If you hold out for an amazing trainer to take your dog to classes, well the dog will probably die of old age. 

You are having trouble managing this dog. It is time to bite the bullet and FIND a trainer/set of classes. Every day your dog is getting older and more set in his behaviors. It doesn't mean he will be unfixable, but it gets harder and harder when you allow a dog to continue in less then desireable behaviors. 

You need help training your dog. You have had two less than stellar trainers so far. If you have two less than stellar teachers, are you going to quit school? If you have two less than stellar bosses, are you going to stop working? 

So someone on the net says that a trainer gave them bad advice. Well, I can tell you point blank that I got bad advice from a vet once -- actually more than once, so you better not bother to take your pup to the vet. 

Stop spending so much energy on excuses, and spend more energy finding a decent set of classes. 

You do not need a degree in animal behavior to be in a class, and have reservations about what is being asked. Then you come on and ask other people and get THEIR opinions about the technique. You do not have to question every little thing, just those things you feel uncomfortable about. 

About the matching, well, some of us learned something new. I have no problem putting a thermometer in my dog's butt to take their temperature, and that is larger than a paper match. I can understand why someone would do that (a dog that eliminates in the ring will be NQ'd), and it does actually work. If it works for people who are showing their dogs, and people are at the end of their rope, then I can understand a trainer suggesting it to someone who is house-training.

The world is not divided between Amazing trainers, and Abusive, Evil, Scoundrel trainers. Both exist, but there is a huge gray area between them. Having a less than stellar trainer heading up your classes is not as bad as being paralyzed by your fear of not finding the right one.


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## lalachka

I emailed 7 dog trainers, can't wait to see what happens. 

Now that I'm doing this I remembered that I already tried looking for the 3rd trainer and made some calls. The really good ones were booked up for months, I should've agreed and i'd be training now. 
I just emailed those 2 again, among others. 

Well, this is a good outcome, thank you everyone. 


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## lalachka

I saw your post after I posted. I was going to make a list of things to ask them, thank you for that))))

Yeah, I know. I actually did try looking for the 3rd one, made some calls and the good ones were booked. I should've made the appt anyway, instead I decided I will do it myself and bought training videos. 


I'm about to email some more, 7 is not enough, you're right. 


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## selzer

It really isn't so much the answers, it is the response that you are looking for. This is why I said CALL. 

How phone calls will do better than e-mail in the instance:

A phone call that is answered will let you know if someone is available and willing to talk to you. 

You will get an answer to your questions with tone and inflection that can tell you whether the individual is impatient, irritated with the question, understanding, willing to take the time, has confidence in their approach and answers, or is unsure, or is trying to sell you on what they think you want. 

You want to find someone YOU are comfortable with. I think calling on the phone, and then possibly sitting in a class session (without your dog), might give you a lot more to go on than an e-mail.


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## lalachka

Of course I'm going to talk to them, but it's a Saturday night, no one is there I think. 

I didn't email the questions, I know it's not about them. I just emailed the below to everyone. Once they call me I want to have a set of questions ready, to make sure they use training I agree with (I don't want strictly old school force training, I want combo of force and treats). 

I'm still emailing some more, I'm emailing every single trainer I see on the net, not checking references or anything. 






Hello, I'm having some problems with my dog, he's a 9 month German Shepherd. 
It's mostly barking and lunging at dogs, people and kids (that's the most horrifying one). If I let him go to the dog he will sniff and play but he looks very scary when he first sees them. 

With people and kids it looks really bad, that happens mostly off leash at the park (I stopped letting him loose, he's always on leash now). 

Can you help and how much do you charge?

Thank you 
Natalie


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## lalachka

OK, I'm annoyed. There's one website of a trainer and she sounds very good and even has classes for dog aggressive dogs (mine is not ready for them, they must have a solid stay, come, etc and be already training with them) but she has this write up on neutering and says that not neutering is a sign of defiance. 

Stuff like that annoys me. I don't want to email her because I'm sure I will hear a lecture on why he should be neutered and possible some pressure. 

I'm going to email her though and hope to be proven wrong. 


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## lalachka

I got a few replies already, will be calling them tomorrow. I'm excited. I contacted a bunch, lost count because some have message pages and not email addresses, but i'd say 15. 

Thank you everyone and selzer especially 


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## lalachka

Question for the pros, based on what I emailed people what would you say his problem is? I'm asking because someone already 'diagnosed' him and IMO she's on point but I might be wrong. Besides, how much can you tell about my dog from an email?

I will be calling her tomorrow as well. Just wanted to see what people think 


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## JakodaCD OA

I can diagnose him for you, but you might not like it. He has an owner who is lacking in skills and no leadership. Your afraid to hurt his feelings and he's out of control. 

He will end up knocking someone over, biting someone and then you'll get sued for everything you've got and the dog will pay with his life. 

If you want to keep this dog, you need to find a trainer and go with it. Stop reading all the 'stuff' on the internet because you admit in other posts, you still don't know "what" to do/ how to react in certain circumstances, you just stand there. 

You also need to get over the idea that neutering is a "bad" thing. Neutering him will not cure his issues, but it will tone down those hormones and it won't make him FAT or LAZY. Of course that is your decision.

To add I am not a professional trainer, but I"ve had dogs for over 50 years, have titled a few, and trained a few other than my own, it isn't that hard to train ANY dog especially if you have a trainer helping you,,as in doing it , not reading about it.

Good luck


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## lalachka

That's not what I was asking but OK. If you saw - I am looking for a trainer. I got a response from a trainer who 'diagnosed' him and was wondering if that's even professional, to diagnose from my description without seeing him. 

In any case, I see my faults and know how much I don't know and that's why there's hope for me. People who think they know it all have nothing else to learn. 


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## Blanketback

IF someone answers with a definite diagnosis, just from only reading your description, then IMO you should scratch them off your list. You don't know why he's reacting the way he is. Anyone worth their stuff will want to observe the puppy in action, and anyone who doesn't want to do this is probably not going to be worth what they charge. Or worse, won't know how to help you and suggest PTS. I'd start my search by asking if these trainers have experience with GSDs myself, and if not then move on to the next one.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> IF someone answers with a definite diagnosis, just from only reading your description, then IMO you should scratch them off your list. You don't know why he's reacting the way he is. Anyone worth their stuff will want to observe the puppy in action, and anyone who doesn't want to do this is probably not going to be worth what they charge. Or worse, won't know how to help you and suggest PTS. I'd start my search by asking if these trainers have experience with GSDs myself, and if not then move on to the next one.


Not a definite, i'd post it here but then people that know how to search would find out who it is. 

That's what I was trying to see, thank you. I got a bunch of replies, I'm about to call them and was wondering if that's OK to do. 

It wasn't PTS!!)))) they all say he's def fixable, one just said that it sounds like he's lacking confidence and needs positive associations with the bad things. 
It sounds on point from what I've seen online and was told here but I was just trying to make sure))))))


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## Blanketback

For sure it's ok to call them, that's their business - they want you as a client, lol. But keep in mind that this business isn't regulated, so anyone can call themselves a trainer. That's why I'd want to start by making sure that the person has worked with GSDs before, and narrow it down from there. Good luck, this will be great for both of you.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> For sure it's ok to call them, that's their business - they want you as a client, lol. But keep in mind that this business isn't regulated, so anyone can call themselves a trainer. That's why I'd want to start by making sure that the person has worked with GSDs before, and narrow it down from there. Good luck, this will be great for both of you.


It is))))) i'm excited. I didn't look for my first 2 trainers like this. I called the first ones that had good references and didnt ask a single question. 
I have hope this time. Thank you!!!!!


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## Blanketback

References are the best way to find a trainer  if you know the dog owner, and share the same training philosophy, and like the results, then that's great. That's how I picked my future trainer, lol. I didn't like the first 2 I ended up with, for various reasons. But it was still worth going, just for the experience. But don't be shy! Make sure that the trainer knows that you're a beginner and will have lots of questions, lol. You're the kind of person that wants to know the theory behind the method, so just telling you to do something might not be good enough. Ask them how much patience they have, lol. Have fun!


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> References are the best way to find a trainer  if you know the dog owner, and share the same training philosophy, and like the results, then that's great. That's how I picked my future trainer, lol. I didn't like the first 2 I ended up with, for various reasons. But it was still worth going, just for the experience. But don't be shy! Make sure that the trainer knows that you're a beginner and will have lots of questions, lol. You're the kind of person that wants to know the theory behind the method, so just telling you to do something might not be good enough. Ask them how much patience they have, lol. Have fun!


No references, I meant reviews online. Anyone I know with dogs (mostly from the park) don't train their dogs. As a matter of fact, just last night, another couple came over with a gsd and they were asking me why he's leashed all the time because their dog wants to play. 

This is the couple that saw him nearly attacking a kid (it was their friend's kid) and said that the kid was acting wrong. 

I'm then telling them that he once was nearly attacking a runner and they say that he probably sensed something 

They look at me like I'm crazy and overreacting for not letting my dog loose. I don't care what they think, if he bites i'm responsible, not them. But I'm saying this to say how most people feel, that their dog has equal if not more rights than people. Why train?

They're not the only ones who wonder why he's always leashed. People don't just wonder, they act like I'm crazy, overreacting and babying him. 
Whatever. 

Anyway, I'm glad you picked up on the fact that I must understand how things work, you can't just tell me what to do. Thank you!! I wouldn't think to bring this up, but you're right, I have to. 


My first call is after 3:30 and the 2nd after 5:30. I'm going to prepare)))))

And I'm glad you also had 2 you didn't like, meaning that it obviously happens, it's not just me. 


ETA when I say that people think I'm babying him that means that I protect him too much, I don't let him get out there and 'tough it out'. I'm starting to enjoy these conversations. 

If I can only tell you all the things the people do here. Yeah, dogs jumping is a pressing issue))))))


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## Blanketback

I'm waaay too much of a skeptic to believe online revues - who's to say the trainer didn't post them themselves, lol? And even if they were legitimate, just look at all the disagreements on here: treats are bribes, corrections are harsh, etc. Training is very personal, and has to work with the way the actual dog is - not just what you wish it to be. I hope you get a great trainer, and someone who's also great with people too - it might take a more than few calls, lol. 

Don't pay any attention to other dog owners. IME, they're nuts! I've barely met any that want a well-trained dog. I've had so many people tell me I'm too strict, blah blah blah. Tough, my dogs are my companions. They don't get to act like little savages, running around the neighborhood barking at people, or tearing up garbage, or generally being a nuisance. They get to go camping, and shopping, and pretty much accompany me wherever I go, so yeah I have some pretty high expectations. Why not? My dogs are rewarded greatly for this. Good luck today!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> OK, I'm annoyed. There's one website of a trainer and she sounds very good and even has classes for dog aggressive dogs (mine is not ready for them, they must have a solid stay, come, etc and be already training with them) but she has this write up on neutering and *says that not neutering is a sign of defiance*.
> 
> *Stuff like that annoys me. I don't want to email her because I'm sure I will hear a lecture on why he should be neutered and possible some pressure.*


To which you will respond with defiance.  Not trying to pick on you, and I don't necessarily agree with her blanket assertion either, but your attitude here on the board regarding the subject of neutering _does_ seem rather defiant. 

Your boy is having temperament issues that you're having difficulty dealing with and you're seeking help. That's great! Neutering isn't going to magically fix him, but as Diane mentioned, it could very well help. I don't recall how old he is, but it sounds like his hormones are starting to kick in. You've already said that you realize your pre-conceived notion about neutering causing animals to become fat and lazy are inaccurate, and yet you stubbornly cling to your aversion to neutering, even though it might have a positive effect on his behavior. I just don't get that. :shrug:

Do you understand why people are getting frustrated? They're trying to help! It's like those threads where people won't use a crate but don't understand why their dog still isn't housebroken and/or chews up the house when they're gone. The ONE thing that would make the most difference would be to simply crate train the dog, and yet they refuse to try it. Or their puppy cries all night and disturbs everyone in the household and maybe even the neighbors, but they are adamant about not putting the crate in the bedroom - again, the ONE thing that would probably fix the issue.


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## lalachka

Lol, I'm pretty naive, I usually believe everything people say or write. I didn't have anything else to go by))))) i literally googled 'dog training NYC' and started from the top (alphabetical), the first one with good reviews came over. 

I already see that this will not be easy, some are too far, some are too expensive. But I'm sure I will find one. Or I will keep looking or maybe try the 300$/session ones. 

Yeah, the park dog owners are something else. But they do make me almost defend my choice. I'm getting annoyed and getting ruder with every conversation like that. Some people don't come over anymore, a few more nights and no one will. That's exactly what I'm looking for. 



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## selzer

I wouldn't put too much stock in reviews on line. I mean, ANYONE can generate reviews for themselves. The human condition is such that we complain, and harp about things when they go wrong, and are strangely silent when they go right. 

No trainer will have nothing but happy customers, because people have to actually do the work, and they have to apply what the trainer suggests, etc. And some people don't do their part. And then they get mad when the trainer doesn't make a miracle occur when it comes to their dog. 

I agree with Diane on this. I think that we have seen an awful lot of puppies owned by people with little experience, and with huge hearts, whose pups at this age are giving them issues. While I would be hesitant to diagnose the puppy off of what I saw in your e-mail, some people might have seen enough young dogs acting the same way to give a tentative diagnosis, and an action plan to start with. But of course, they will need to see you and the dog.


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## lalachka

Cassidy's mom, I don't know, i'd think neutering him for my lack of skills is not right. 

He's 9 months, I'm not going to do it unless there's a medical reason for it. I'd rather up my skills than neuter him for my comfort. 


Also, I might be wrong about why I'm so against it, I'm digging within myself to understand what it is that bothers me about it and I think that's the answer. But I might be wrong. Just everything in me protests against the idea. It's a feeling, I can't explain it. 


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock in reviews on line. I mean, ANYONE can generate reviews for themselves. The human condition is such that we complain, and harp about things when they go wrong, and are strangely silent when they go right.
> 
> No trainer will have nothing but happy customers, because people have to actually do the work, and they have to apply what the trainer suggests, etc. And some people don't do their part. And then they get mad when the trainer doesn't make a miracle occur when it comes to their dog.
> 
> I agree with Diane on this. I think that we have seen an awful lot of puppies owned by people with little experience, and with huge hearts, whose pups at this age are giving them issues. While I would be hesitant to diagnose the puppy off of what I saw in your e-mail, some people might have seen enough young dogs acting the same way to give a tentative diagnosis, and an action plan to start with. But of course, they will need to see you and the dog.


This time I'm not looking at reviews, I emailed every single trainer I found online. I looked at reviews last time, I'm naive. 


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## Blanketback

Another idea would be to call any GSD rescues and breeders near you, and ask for their recommendations.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Another idea would be to call any GSD rescues and breeders near you, and ask for their recommendations.


!!!!!! Thank you, getting on it)))))
Schutzhund club still didnt reply, I must've scared them away with him having no papers or the fact that I don't want to do sports and just need help. 


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## selzer

I agree that neutering your dog probably is a good idea. I don't see not neutering as an act of defiance, but if you are having issues, and neutering might help with the hormones, than not doing it, well, unless you are planning on showing him in conformation or breeding him, well, I have to wonder why not.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Cassidy's mom, I don't know, i'd think neutering him for my lack of skills is not right.
> 
> He's 9 months, I'm not going to do it unless there's a medical reason for it. I'd rather up my skills than neuter him for my comfort.
> 
> 
> Also, I might be wrong about why I'm so against it, I'm digging within myself to understand what it is that bothers me about it and I think that's the answer. But I might be wrong. Just everything in me protests against the idea. It's a feeling, I can't explain it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If neutering due to your lack of skill in managing and training him prevents him from being PTS because of your lack of skill in management and training, I am all for it.

Look at it this way. This is your first dog? First GSD? Neutering AND training classes/management/leadership nets you an great dog -- there is no shame in that.


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## lalachka

He's on leash and he's going to be on leash until I can trust him. It's not about shame, I'm all against it for anything except medical reasons. 

I'm not even going to try to understand why, I just am, it's a fact. 

If he's wired wrong then neuter or not there's no hope. If he's not - I will help him overcome it. 


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> It's not about shame, I'm all against it for anything except medical reasons.
> 
> I'm not even going to try to understand why, I just am, it's a fact.


(*defiance*) oke:


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## lalachka

Cassidy's Mom said:


> (*defiance*) oke:


Lol for sure. I guess I didn't like her calling me out on it. 

Seriously though, not true. If neutering was a sign of defiance then I wouldn't be defiant))))))

He barked and lunged maybe 10 times in his life, obviously it was some situations that made him nervous. I'm not excusing it, he shouldn't be doing it period!!

That's why I'm looking for solutions, I'm not OK with it. If I was I wouldn't try to work on it.

Anyway, so to me it makes more sense to try to understand what makes him tick and help him overcome it than cut him and hope that what? What happens with dogs when you neuter them that they stop lunging?

We are outside now, plenty of people around. He couldn't care less. 


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## JakodaCD OA

> Question for the pros, based on what I emailed people what would you say his problem is?


Uh you did ask what his problem was, and I told you.

I agree with Debbie/Sue and others. And NO you don't need to allow him OFF leash anywhere, anytime. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. 

You come here asking for information, suggestions, you get them and then you seem to not like what you hear..

Great that your looking for a trainer, because I can predict the future with this dog if you don't get one and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. 

You have 573 postings on this forum with TONS of suggestions and advice. The best one you've gotten is to GET A TRAINER and do it before it's to late for the dog.

Again, I'll apologize for being harsh, but it gets really frustrating to see something that can probably be sooooo simply resolved wasting time boo hoo ing about it.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think you were told neutering will most likely NOT change his core temperament, it will tho get rid of those adolescent hormones and knock him back a peg or two. 

As for what makes him 'tick', he's young and full of it, he's got an owner who lets him get away with stuff with no corrections or ineffective corrections.. He needs to learn what is and is not acceptable.


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## Cassidy's Mom

It's not a magic fix, and nobody is implying that you won't also need to continue training him. What neutering can do is basically take the edge off. Another benefit is that sometimes OTHER dogs will react differently towards an intact dog, and then your dog responds to that. For some people and the lifestyle they have and the activities they pursue, that may not matter, but for others it does. 

When Keefer was maturing, other dogs definitely started reacting differently towards him. He'd be minding his own business as we walked along at the off leash park with him and Dena, and another dog would suddenly charge at him. This happened THREE TIMES on one visit to the park, and had never happened prior to that. He wasn't even looking at any of the other dogs, so there was nothing in his demeanor that could have provoked it. One of the times he was in the midst of squatting to poop and didn't even see the other dog! 

There were no injuries, it was just a lot of noise, but I was concerned that if it continued he might develop a "get 'em before they get me" attitude, and then we'd have bigger problems. As it was, he was very social with other dogs off leash and we wanted to be able to continue taking our dogs to the park to play ball and swim, since we have a very tiny yard and can't play and exercise them at home. I had always planned to neuter him at some point between one and two years old, and right then and there I decided not to wait any further. He was 15 months old at the time. He stayed the sweet, social boy he was, and other dogs stopped being nasty to him.


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## Cassidy's Mom

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you were told neutering will most likely NOT change his core temperament, it will tho get rid of those adolescent hormones and knock him back a peg or two.


Exactly. :thumbup:


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> Uh you did ask what his problem was, and I told you.
> 
> I agree with Debbie/Sue and others. And NO you don't need to allow him OFF leash anywhere, anytime. It's ridiculous to think otherwise.
> 
> You come here asking for information, suggestions, you get them and then you seem to not like what you hear..
> 
> Great that your looking for a trainer, because I can predict the future with this dog if you don't get one and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
> 
> You have 573 postings on this forum with TONS of suggestions and advice. The best one you've gotten is to GET A TRAINER and do it before it's to late for the dog.
> 
> Again, I'll apologize for being harsh, but it gets really frustrating to see something that can probably be sooooo simply resolved wasting time boo hoo ing about it.


Don't read it. Lots of things annoy me, what can I do about it? 

That's not what I was asking, quote the entire thing, I explained what I meant right after that sentence. 

You can try to predict what would happen, you might be right and you might be wrong. I tend to be hard on myself, it's very possible that I'm over exaggerating the problems and the amount of skill in my response. Or maybe I'm not. 

I come to the forum not so much because I need advice (though i def got lots of good advice here that I ended up using) but mostly for entertainment. I love to read, sometimes I like reading forums. I see something I like - I comment, I ask questions, it's mostly entertainment. 

It's not like I'm at the end of my rope and I'm here hoping I can get help, I know it doesn't work this way. But I really got got stuff from here that I wouldn't even think to ask if the conversation didnt go that way. 


Who said he's going to be off leash anywhere anytime until he's trustworthy? Where are you reading this? He's on leash at all time and will be until he comes every time I call him no matter what he's doing. It will be months before this happens (hopefully not longer)


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you were told neutering will most likely NOT change his core temperament, it will tho get rid of those adolescent hormones and knock him back a peg or two.
> 
> As for what makes him 'tick', he's young and full of it, he's got an owner who lets him get away with stuff with no corrections or ineffective corrections.. He needs to learn what is and is not acceptable.


And you know this how? That's not the case no matter how you might've read my posts.


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## lalachka

When I write I don't want to give a 1000 unnecessary details, I figure if someone wants to know they'd ask. Not assume. 

Just because I now don't correct him for lunging doesn't mean I didn't do it for a month or 2 with no results. If something doesn't work I try something else. 


IMO correcting him for this won't work (in case you say I didn't correct him hard enough), it seems like he's doing it out of fear. If you're scared of snakes I can beat you and tell you to be quiet all I want, you might stop because I'm hurting you but your fear didnt go anywhere and you will react next time. 


If you're just saying it because you enjoy being rude to me - that's fine too. I enjoy it too sometimes, just don't pass it off as advice.


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## lalachka

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It's not a magic fix, and nobody is implying that you won't also need to continue training him. What neutering can do is basically take the edge off. Another benefit is that sometimes OTHER dogs will react differently towards an intact dog, and then your dog responds to that. For some people and the lifestyle they have and the activities they pursue, that may not matter, but for others it does.
> 
> When Keefer was maturing, other dogs definitely started reacting differently towards him. He'd be minding his own business as we walked along at the off leash park with him and Dena, and another dog would suddenly charge at him. This happened THREE TIMES on one visit to the park, and had never happened prior to that. He wasn't even looking at any of the other dogs, so there was nothing in his demeanor that could have provoked it. One of the times he was in the midst of squatting to poop and didn't even see the other dog!
> 
> There were no injuries, it was just a lot of noise, but I was concerned that if it continued he might develop a "get 'em before they get me" attitude, and then we'd have bigger problems. As it was, he was very social with other dogs off leash and we wanted to be able to continue taking our dogs to the park to play ball and swim, since we have a very tiny yard and can't play and exercise them at home. I had always planned to neuter him at some point between one and two years old, and right then and there I decided not to wait any further. He was 15 months old at the time. He stayed the sweet, social boy he was, and other dogs stopped being nasty to him.


Him lunging at dogs is not a problem for me as it is doing it at people. If I let him go to the dog he will just play. My pressing issue is him doing it to people. He did it maybe 10 times in his life and thats what I want to get rid of now. 

The dogs I can deal with afterwards, there's no aggression there, he plays with dogs no problem. Yeah it's annoying but it's not scary. 

People though is a diff story. I don't understand where it's coming from.


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## Blanketback

The thing is, we don't know why they do it. My puppy was always barking and lunging when I walked him, doing it mostly to the neighbors out getting their mail. But where I was walking him to was an area where he got to run free and swim. One day he'd been running with another GSD I met there, then he'd been swimming for an hour, then we walked for a while in the sun to dry off - and when he saw the same people getting their mail on the way home, not a peep out of him. So was he barking and lunging out of boredom, or excitement, or what? Did all the exercise just wear him out, or was he too tired to react even if he wanted to? Or could I blame it on fear, since these were people he never met? Simple poor training? On and on, lol.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> When I write I don't want to give a 1000 unnecessary details, I figure if someone wants to know they'd ask. Not assume.
> 
> Just because I now don't correct him for lunging doesn't mean I didn't do it for a month or 2 with no results. If something doesn't work I try something else.
> 
> 
> IMO correcting him for this won't work (in case you say I didn't correct him hard enough), it seems like he's doing it out of fear. If you're scared of snakes I can beat you and tell you to be quiet all I want, you might stop because I'm hurting you but your fear didnt go anywhere and you will react next time.
> 
> 
> If you're just saying it because you enjoy being rude to me - that's fine too. I enjoy it too sometimes, just don't pass it off as advice.


It is not about being rude to you. Diane and the rest of us have better things to do than to be rude to someone on the internet. We are concerned for your puppy, because we happen to like GSDs and puppies in particular. And we can see by the things that you have been saying that you are being very ineffective with communicating with your dog what is acceptible and what is not. It is not so much the incidents themselves the compilation of the things that you have posted, like not wanting to neuter him for your failings -- that is humanizing your dog, he could care less whether or not he has his testicles, they are not as important to dogs as people; the fact that you don't want to do any harsh, or old school training, though you aren't really sure what types of corrections are abusive and what PR training really entails. And other things, like saying you are just not a leader. These dogs NEED a leader, and some more than others. 

If you are not a strong leader, then you have no business keeping a young male that is having some issues intact. It is a recipe for disaster. 

It is not about being rude. It is about trying to get you where you need to be so your puppy doesn't end up paying the price. 

It is good that you are keeping him on leash now. It is good that you are looking for a trainer/ training classes. Get that dog into classes, and if after six weeks, you do not like the trainer find another one. If you do not want to neuter this dog, you have to change your attitude about leadership. You may have to crimp your dog's style and restrict some freedom.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Him lunging at dogs is not a problem for me as it is doing it at people. If I let him go to the dog he will just play. My pressing issue is him doing it to people. He did it maybe 10 times in his life and thats what I want to get rid of now.
> 
> The dogs I can deal with afterwards, there's no aggression there, he plays with dogs no problem. Yeah it's annoying but it's not scary.
> 
> People though is a diff story. I don't understand where it's coming from.


Your dog may want to play, but the other dog might not want to play, and if your dog is lunging at another dog, the other dog might just bite him good, and then your dog will also probably not want to play either, and can become dangerously dog-reactive. So you need to worry about this behavior too.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> The thing is, we don't know why they do it. My puppy was always barking and lunging when I walked him, doing it mostly to the neighbors out getting their mail. But where I was walking him to was an area where he got to run free and swim. One day he'd been running with another GSD I met there, then he'd been swimming for an hour, then we walked for a while in the sun to dry off - and when he saw the same people getting their mail on the way home, not a peep out of him. So was he barking and lunging out of boredom, or excitement, or what? Did all the exercise just wear him out, or was he too tired to react even if he wanted to? Or could I blame it on fear, since these were people he never met? Simple poor training? On and on, lol.


Then how is it even treated? And how can you make sure he never does it again?

Anyway, I might actually get lucky this time. I got some good trainers. I can't believe last times I stopped at the first one that picked up the phone. Omg

Some are too far but some are right here and they sound very good. One thing though, the 2 close by are purely positive. I guess it doesn't matter for my needs now but I don't want them horrified because of the prong collar. Besides, I believe in some corrections. 

I guess this shouldn't stop me from trying them out. Or should it?


ETA the ones far away are not that far that I couldn't drive there, that's why I'm asking.


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## DaniFani

Lala, you've gotten so much freaking advice I think you and everyone else would be happy if you took a break from the internets, and don't come back until you actually go DO something. Your posts and threads are so cyclical I leave dizzy.


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## lalachka

Where are you seeing that I don't like corrections? I don't understand, where is all this stuff coming from. I think I'm clear explaining things. 

I believe in corrections, I actually have doubts to trying out the 2 purely positive trainers. What I said about old school is that I don't want a trainer who's purely old school, no treats pure force. 
30 years ago that was the way to go. Now they have better methods. I don't want someone stuck in the past. 

As far as dogs not missing their balls - there's a lot of things he won't miss, let's cut them all off. 

Leadership is not about being like Caesar Milan, that's what I'm not. I'm not a softie either. Not everyone is a leader in the way I meant it, if everyone is a leader then who's following?

I must be using wrong words, it happens, I'm not the best at explaining myself.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Lala, you've gotten so much freaking advice I think you and everyone else would be happy if you took a break from the internets, and don't come back until you actually go DO something. Your posts and threads are so cyclical I leave dizzy.


Stop reading


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Stop reading


Haha, how can I?! Every thread around here these days becomes a Lala thread within the first three pages.


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> Your dog may want to play, but the other dog might not want to play, and if your dog is lunging at another dog, the other dog might just bite him good, and then your dog will also probably not want to play either, and can become dangerously dog-reactive. So you need to worry about this behavior too.


I do. I did say that I do, but in the order of priorities people come first. 

Also, I don't let him go to dogs he doesn't know anymore, I'm just using this as description of his behavior. When I used to he would just play. Now I avoid them whenever I can.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Haha, how can I?! Every thread around here these days becomes a Lala thread within the first three pages.


I will leave when I'm ready. Or when i get banned. Until then deal with it


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## lalachka

Lol selzer I'm still not going for classes, I want one on one. Am I crazy? 
I don't know why. Maybe because I have a 1000 questions and everyone in class will hate me.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I will leave when I'm ready. Or when i get banned. Until then deal with it


Hey mods!! Did you hear that!? I saw you fulfill another members similar request! Can we just skip to this ending?  hahaha kidding....kidding..../s

So are you saying that's what you're building up to? Getting banned? You are predicting that you can't follow the simple rules of this forum and you fully expect to get banned by continuing to try and test everyone's patience and the boundaries?? hmmmm


----------



## Blanketback

I was overjoyed that afternoon, lol! I normally try to get him to do things that I want, rather than worry about things he gets wrong. So if I have to bring a tug along to get a nice walk out in public, then I'll do that. Distraction is the name of the game for me. One day he rushed some pedestrians while getting out of our car. Whoops. I asked him if he wanted to play frisbee, and told him to go get it. He ran up to the door, where I keep it, and the people laughed, yay. Well, walking in this neighborhood, you'll get all kinds of dogs running up and barking at you, lol. I just don't want him to do it because I'm bossy and mean, and I'm way too strict, lol. 

If you go with a purely positive trainer, they won't allow the prong. My last trainer wouldn't let me use it in class. This isn't a make or break training tool for me though. Let the trainer see your puppy and go from there.

ETA: drama anyone? If it's so tiresome, use the ignore function. Geez!


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Hey mods!! Did you hear that!? I saw you fulfill another members similar request! Can we just skip to this ending?  hahaha kidding....kidding..../s
> 
> So are you saying that's what you're building up to? Getting banned? You are predicting that you can't follow the simple rules of this forum and you fully expect to get banned by continuing to try and test everyone's patience and the boundaries?? hmmmm


No, I'm being myself. But I irritate people IRL so I'm sure it happens here too. I get banned - oh well, but I won't change my style so I can stay on a forum.


----------



## DaniFani

Well, all I can hope for the future is that whoever sues you for your dog attacking their dog or another person, does something heroic with the money. Because my prediction is every.single.trainer. you find will have something wrong or just get fed up with you nit picking and questioning every.single.thing.they.say.

Another prediction: You will post every.single.thing whatever poor trainer you pick says on this forum....and because it's the internet you will have at LEAST one person saying they disagree with the style....and you will let the internet think for you, and you will "fire" that trainer...who will probably be thankful....since we are doing predictions and you are always wanting the internet to tell you what to do and what will happen....those are my internet predictions. :happyboogie::hammer:


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> I was overjoyed that afternoon, lol! I normally try to get him to do things that I want, rather than worry about things he gets wrong. So if I have to bring a tug along to get a nice walk out in public, then I'll do that. Distraction is the name of the game for me. One day he rushed some pedestrians while getting out of our car. Whoops. I asked him if he wanted to play frisbee, and told him to go get it. He ran up to the door, whee I keep it, and the people laughed, yay. Well, walking in this neighborhood, you'll get all kinds of dogs running up and barking at you, lol. I just don't want him to do it because I'm bossy and mean, and I'm way too strict, lol.
> 
> If you go with a purely positive trainer, they won't allow the prong. My last trainer wouldn't let me use it in class. This isn't a make or break training tool for me though. Let the trainer see your puppy and go from there.


It's not for me either, but without it he pulls like crazy. He's already so desensitized to it (my fault) that he will hurt himself pulling. I'm in the process of doing the leash pressure thing from Michael Ellis, hopefully he will stop pulling. 


Besides, I'm not going to a class, one on one. 

I also don't let him near anyone on walks but i do at some point want to give him off leash exercise at the park. I want to be able to control him off leash.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani, lighten up. It's not healthy to be so bitter. 

And don't worry about me, I will be just fine. With it without gsd.com.


----------



## DaniFani

Blanketback said:


> I was overjoyed that afternoon, lol! I normally try to get him to do things that I want, rather than worry about things he gets wrong. So if I have to bring a tug along to get a nice walk out in public, then I'll do that. Distraction is the name of the game for me. One day he rushed some pedestrians while getting out of our car. Whoops. I asked him if he wanted to play frisbee, and told him to go get it. He ran up to the door, where I keep it, and the people laughed, yay. Well, walking in this neighborhood, you'll get all kinds of dogs running up and barking at you, lol. I just don't want him to do it because I'm bossy and mean, and I'm way too strict, lol.
> 
> If you go with a purely positive trainer, they won't allow the prong. My last trainer wouldn't let me use it in class. This isn't a make or break training tool for me though. Let the trainer see your puppy and go from there.
> 
> ETA: drama anyone? If it's so tiresome, use the ignore function. Geez!


Haha, I may agree with you if Lala hadn't quoted me in the original post, in a completely out of context way...and then asked the whole forum for opinions on a stance that I didn't even take or mention....:shrug:


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Haha, I may agree with you if Lala hadn't quoted me in the original post, in a completely out of context way...and then asked the whole forum for opinions on a stance that I didn't even take or mention....:shrug:


Why don't you go back and read that thread. The original, not this one. I'm still amazed at how you twisted it. I just didnt want to argue over it anymore.


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> DaniFani, lighten up. It's not healthy to be so bitter.
> 
> And don't worry about me, I will be just fine. With it without gsd.com.


Haha, you always think I am upset or mad when I answer you....I'm just trying to give you a nudge in the direction most wish you would take....get off the internet and DO something....and come back once you have....no skin off my back if you don't....just saying what a lot of people are thinking and hinting at.


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Why don't you go back and read that thread. The original, not this one. I'm still amazed at how you twisted it. I just didnt want to argue over it anymore.


Oh, I thought it was a "language barrier" problem. :crazy:


----------



## Blanketback

The thing is, walking isn't enough. My guy will pull (even with the prong) if he hasn't been exercised before a walk. So I'll play flirt pole first, to get rid of some of the energy. He's so much better then, it's not even comparable. I know you live in the city so your options are more limited, but even playing fetch down a hallway would help you out.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Haha, you always think I am upset or mad when I answer you....I'm just trying to give you a nudge in the direction most wish you would take....get off the internet and DO something....and come back once you have....no skin off my back if you don't....just saying what a lot of people are thinking and hinting at.


It takes a bitter person to wish that my dog bites someone. 

I can multitask. I'm not on a computer posting.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Oh, I thought it was a "language barrier" problem. :crazy:


I was being polite and giving you the benefit of the doubt. I thought you just didn't read it right. But I didn't want to be rude.


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> It takes a bitter person to wish that my dog bites someone.
> 
> I can multitask. I'm not on a computer posting.


A prediction isn't a wish......guess that's that language barrier again??


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> The thing is, walking isn't enough. My guy will pull (even with the prong) if he hasn't been exercised before a walk. So I'll play flirt pole first, to get rid of some of the energy. He's so much better then, it's not even comparable. I know you live in the city so your options are more limited, but even playing fetch down a hallway would help you out.


I have everything working against me lol. I have wooden floors, he can barely walk fast on them without slipping. 

The freaking park is all i have.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> A prediction isn't a wish......guess that's that language barrier again??


Must be. I took it as a prediction you'd be happy to be right on.


----------



## Blanketback

If you have a hallway he can use, go get some cheap runner carpet they sell by the foot and let him have fun ruining it, lol. Good times, trust me!


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> If you have a hallway he can use, go get some cheap runner carpet they sell by the foot and let him have fun ruining it, lol. Good times, trust me!


Omg, seriously. How I didn't think of this.


----------



## Blanketback

That's what they call brainstorming, lol! But buy more than the length of the hallway, so you can wrap each end around something and screw it into the wall. I'm not sure if just a sticky underpad would hold it in place - I kind of doubt it, lol.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> That's what they call brainstorming, lol! But buy more than the length of the hallway, so you can wrap each end around something and screw it into the wall. I'm not sure if just a sticky underpad would hold it in place - I kind of doubt it, lol.


My hallway is not that long so I was going to do the room as well. Yeah, I will hook it up so that it's attached to the molding and can be taken off and put back on. 

This is a very good idea!!! I still want to let him loose in the park at some point but until then my apt will do. 


I made a flirt pole but with him on a long leash it's dangerous to really play it, his legs get tangled up. 

Also, I saw someone say that you can't let them stop short because they can get OCD from trauma. So he doesn't get to enjoy it full force


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> Who said he's going to be off leash anywhere anytime until he's trustworthy? Where are you reading this? He's on leash at all time and will be until he comes every time I call him no matter what he's doing. It will be months before this happens (hopefully not longer)


Gosh talk about twisting things, I was agreeing with YOU about NOT being offleash. You need to 'read' what people write as well vs twisting things around. 

As for purely positive trainers, well I wouldn't be walking in there with a prong collar because that won't fly with PP trainers at all, just so you know. You want a fair trainer who is reward based as well as being able to give a FAIR correction when necessary.

You have gotten so much GOOD advice, but it seems to go in one ear and out the other, you seem to just want to argue the advice. 

I really hope a trainer can help you out, and here's a little tip,,if I were you I'd put my listening ears on when you find a trainer , trainers don't like chatty clients they are there to work / fix you and the dog. 

I'm betting if you spent as much time training your dog as you did posting he'd be pretty near perfect..


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## lalachka

Sorry, you're right, I misunderstood. You meant as opposed to what people in the park say?

I won't talk at all lol but I must understand how a technique works to be able to believe it and do it right. I don't have a good example off hand but if I don't understand why something is done then I don't understand how it works. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They should be able to explain it. I don't like to blindly do what I'm told. 


Most if the time when I post I'm at work. I can't train him 24/7 anyway. You'd be surprised how much stuff I'm able to do in between postings.


----------



## David Winners

I appreciate that you want to do the right thing for your dog. A problem you are having is that you are approaching this like a mathematical equation. I understand this, and I was in your exact shoes decades ago.

If dog does A, you must do Y.

It's not that simple. You don't even understand what the dog is doing, let alone why it is doing it. It's not your fault! I'm glad to see you want to learn and improve.

Reading will only take you 2% towards understanding communication with dogs. You can't learn about posture, pitch tone and inflection of your voice, animation, facial expression, leash control, timing, and all this is just handler behavior. These are things you have to get right so your dog can understand you and you can begin to address the situations you are encountering.

You also take every word you read as something you need to pay attention to, regardless of the source. You contradict yourself because you are changing how you look at things because of every little thing you read. Every dog is different, every trainer is different, every handler is different.

People spend hours of their time trying to help you, and you gain very little from it, because you are trying to interpret something visual from text, the subject is foreign to you, and you have no one telling you if you are doing anything you read and implement correctly. 

You are concerned with the possibility of a trainer messing your dog up, which I understand, but you seem to be oblivious to the fact that you may be making everything worse all on your own.

If you were my client, I would tell you to leave your dog at home and just come watch us train for a week. You would have homework that would consist of practicing the above handler skills. You wouldn't do any training with your dog until it was evaluated, and we would discuss and decide on a plan of action together that you were comfortable with. I wish I could work with you! I love people that want to know why! I think you have the work ethic necessary to be a good handler.

I would also recommend group classes instead of individual training, as handlers often learn far more when they are watching others and are not concentrating on their own dog. 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Watching a good trainer work a dog is worth that tenfold. Read all you want, but IMHO, you are not spending your time wisely. 

I'll leave you alone now, and wish you the best of luck. Enjoy your dog!

David Winners


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## lalachka

Lol David, you got it all right. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, come up with an algorithm lol. I can't think in any other way))))) at least for now. 

dogs are new to me, I can't read them so every time I follow a technique he does something I didn't expect and I'm back here asking. 
I'm sooo confused by now, information overload. One website says this, another says that. I'd love to already pick a trainer and just follow them blindly (still ask WHY but trust that they're always right). 

I'd love to work with you too, you see my problem lol. I'm assuming you're somewhere far though. 

I don't know if I will ever master this, so far I've learned everything I wanted. This is a little different though. 

I will try group classes, so many people keep suggesting them, they must be not that bad. But I will also do a few private ones. I just want him evaluated by someone with experience. 

And one last thing. I got a bunch of advice and lots of it sinks in, unexpected stuff. Maybe it was a waste of time for everyone typing but it def wasn't a waste for me)))))

Thank you!!!


----------



## lalachka

I did watch Michael Ellis videos, I thought that helped. Of course it'd be nice if he was here to answer questions but I understood most of it. I will be buying more.


----------



## David Winners

I'm in South Korea at the moment 

Michael Ellis is amazing. Pay attention to how he interacts with dogs. Check out his videos with Pi on YouTube.


David Winners


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Lol David, you got it all right. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, come up with an algorithm lol. I can't think in any other way))))) at least for now.
> 
> dogs are new to me, I can't read them so every time I follow a technique he does something I didn't expect and I'm back here asking.
> I'm sooo confused by now, information overload. One website says this, another says that. I'd love to already pick a trainer and just follow them blindly (still ask WHY but trust that they're always right).
> 
> I'd love to work with you too, you see my problem lol. I'm assuming you're somewhere far though.
> 
> I don't know if I will ever master this, so far I've learned everything I wanted. This is a little different though.
> 
> I will try group classes, so many people keep suggesting them, they must be not that bad. But I will also do a few private ones. I just want him evaluated by someone with experience.
> 
> And one last thing. I got a bunch of advice and lots of it sinks in, unexpected stuff. Maybe it was a waste of time for everyone typing but it def wasn't a waste for me)))))
> 
> Thank you!!!


This is what a lot of people are talking about. David could train using strictly Ceasar Milan methods (just as an example)....you have NO IDEA, and yet because he said some things you liked you would "love to work with him." (He's in Hawaii). You say you won't try or don't agree with all these methods, and yet you have no experience or reason for having that stance. You argue up a storm about things you have no idea over, yet will throw it all to the wind if someone says some things you like that compliment you but say nothing towards the way they train. It's just all a contradiction and why soon, people are just going to stop advising you. I agree with Jakoda, that you need to start listening, and I will also add that since you have absolutely no experience, have an out of control dog, maybe you need to start trusting people that have more experience....even if you don't 100% understand their methods, if they have dogs that are successful and well mannered/well behaved, and not traumatized or abused, maybe you should give it a shot instead of questioning every little thing, as if you know anything.


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> I'm in South Korea at the moment
> 
> Michael Ellis is amazing. Pay attention to how he interacts with dogs. Check out his videos with Pi on YouTube.
> 
> 
> David Winners


Lol, I know you're in the army but even where you live is far from me I think. 

He is!!!! I watched almost all of them on leerburg. The tug with pi is amazing, that's my goal. 

By the way, my boy is not that interested in tug. He'd do it a few times and then will not be interested. 

Whatever, I'm trying, I'm doing everything I know how to do. Can't wait for the trainer's opinion on him.


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## lalachka

DaniFani, he didnt compliment me, he just understood what I was trying to do (and what I'm trying to do is not working). How is that a compliment?

What made me want to say that i'd love to work with him is the fact that he likes people that want to know WHY. And I like people that will answer my endless WHYs. What's wrong with that?

I know a little about his training methods, I read a bunch of his posts. 

Anyway, I'm getting a trainer, I thought I said that a bunch of times. I thought I also said that I'm here mostly for entertainment though in the process I get a bunch of good ideas. Like I got pushed to get a trainer. 

So what's the problem? If I want to post bs (in your opinion) non stop, why can't I? When I get tired of it or i get banned I won't post anymore. Will you feel better?


----------



## lalachka

I'm not questioning them as in arguing with them but i'd like to understand why things are done. I don't like to blindly follow. People are different, this is how I am. 

I don't know anyone with dogs that have no problems or i'd been training with them or asking advice. I don't know that many people at all, i mostly stay by myself. So yeah, for me to find a trainer is not easy. I have nothing to go by but websites and reviews.


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## selzer

I love group classes. My trainer is awesome. But, sometimes I can't believe she hasn't pulled out an uzi and leveled a few of the members of some of the classes over the years. Most of the time, it's the owner not the dog that needs the correction, LOL! 

Lala, I've said it before, but I really think you are making a mistake limiting yourself to individual lessons. But maybe I am just biased in favor of groups, as that is what I am familiar with. 

Good luck with whoever you go to.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> I love group classes. My trainer is awesome. But, sometimes I can't believe she hasn't pulled out an uzi and leveled a few of the members of some of the classes over the years. Most of the time, it's the owner not the dog that needs the correction, LOL!
> 
> Lala, I've said it before, but I really think you are making a mistake limiting yourself to individual lessons. But maybe I am just biased in favor of groups, as that is what I am familiar with.
> 
> Good luck with whoever you go to.


I'm not))))) I will do both as long as they accept him. From what I saw last night there are prereqs to classes and he wouldn't be eligible (reliable stay), also I'm not sure how much aggression he has, maybe it's too much for class.


ETA yeah, I feel bad for whoever I choose. But I think they knew what they signed up for. Anytime you work with people you want to level some of them)))))


----------



## Sunflowers

lalachka said:


> Most if the time when I post I'm at work.


Wow.
I feel for your employers.


----------



## lalachka

Sunflowers said:


> Wow.
> I feel for your employers.


You shouldn't. They can fire me when they feel like I'm not doing my job.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I like group classes as well, we laugh at ourselves, are humiliated and embarrassed at times, and just want to smack yourself in the head sometimes with the antics that go on

I like to see the progression of not just my dog(s) but others as well, see how they handle sometimes stressful situations..Lots of benefits to group classes, IF you get into the right ones..


----------



## JakodaCD OA

sunflowers, we are just "entertainment" value here, methinks it's time for me anyhow, to stop providing that entertainment


----------



## selzer

Advanced classes require a reliable stay. 

Basic classes expect to teach you how to get your dog to stay. That's group classes. 

Basic classes, and CGC classes generally start off with people whose dogs are not reliable on stay or down or come, and that is what they teach.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Advanced classes require a reliable stay.
> 
> Basic classes expect to teach you how to get your dog to stay. That's group classes.
> 
> Basic classes, and CGC classes generally start off with people whose dogs are not reliable on stay or down or come, and that is what they teach.


This was an aggression class I looked up. They had a class for dog aggressive dogs. I'm not sure they'd take him in the regular class but again, maybe he's not that bad and I'm just exaggerating. 

Can't wait to see what a trainer says.


----------



## selzer

He is nine months old. 

He is probably doing a lot of the same stuff young crazy dogs do, and a good trainer, in a group can help you stop that crap.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> He is nine months old.
> 
> He is probably doing a lot of the same stuff young crazy dogs do, and a good trainer, in a group can help you stop that crap.


I hope. So far everyone that replied said exactly that, that's he's still a pup and def fixable. I'm open to anything, I will do at least one private and will do group as long as they take him.


----------



## DaniFani

JakodaCD OA said:


> I like group classes as well, we laugh at ourselves, are humiliated and embarrassed at times, and just want to smack yourself in the head sometimes with the antics that go on
> 
> I like to see the progression of not just my dog(s) but others as well, see how they handle sometimes stressful situations..Lots of benefits to group classes, IF you get into the right ones..


Ain't that the truth, I love getting new club members and watching them go through the beginning stages. I love encouraging them and letting them know we all go through it and continue to lol. I also swear I learn so so much watching all the other handler and dog personalities and mistakes/successes of each.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

This is a reminder from your friendly neighborhood moderator: PLAY NICE EVERYONE, AND STOP THE PETTY BICKERING!!!

Got that? Good. Carry on.


----------



## Sunflowers

JakodaCD OA said:


> sunflowers, we are just "entertainment" value here,



So is Lalachka.


----------



## lalachka

Sunflowers said:


> So is Lalachka.


Exactly))))) and everyone is happy 


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> This was an aggression class I looked up. They had a class for dog aggressive dogs. I'm not sure they'd take him in the regular class but again, maybe he's not that bad and I'm just exaggerating.
> 
> Can't wait to see what a trainer says.


Most "dog aggressive" dogs just have no manners, are young and don't know how to cap their drive, have handlers that don't know how to read the dog's initial excitement and redirect their attention, etc...

In group classes, I always spend personal time with new dogs, especially if they are reactive, and can usually nip it in the bud pretty quick through engagement exercises. Dogs quickly learn that I am the most fun thing on the planet. If this doesn't work, I back them away from the class, sometimes put the dog up, let the handler watch for the rest of the session and then spend some time with the dog and one of my dogs after.

If it turns out that the dog is really aggressive, I will then recommend some one on one time. I try and keep dogs in the group however, because everyone benefits from the experience, and I don't like to dig into people's wallets if I don't have to. 

I personally don't like "dog aggressive classes" because it puts a bunch of bad attitudes and negative energy in a group. I would rather have one or 2 jerks in a group of social dogs who can set a good example. JMHO, and others have success with different approaches.

As far as your dog being "that bad"... from what I have read, he's not. He sounds excitable without knowing how to get what he wants, so he pulls towards his goal. Again, without seeing it happen, I could be totally wrong. The big thing is, in my opinion, is that after he gets to the dog he was barking at, he is social and not attacking it.

David Winners


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

We actually had a great experience with a reactive dog class. It may sound strange, but it was FAR more relaxing than being "those people" with "that dog" that was disrupting the class! All the dogs were there for the same reason, and had varying levels of reactivity, and ours was somewhere in the middle of the pack - a few were much worse than Cassidy and a few were not quite as bad. That made it much less stressful for US, and in turn, gave HER less to feed off of. 

The class had a very high ratio of instructors and assistants per dog, if I remember correctly (this was back in 2001), there was one for every 2 dogs in the class. We did lots of very structured, very controlled exercises, and each week we were able to work the dogs closer and closer to each other. All the dogs improved greatly in those 6 weeks. I don't know that any of us could have accomplished the same thing in a regular obedience class, or on our own.


----------



## lalachka

What about people and kids(((((( 

I so hope he's fixable, i'd love to let him off leash sometime in the future. On leash for the rest of his life doesn't sound fun but I will do it if he's not fixable. 

Lol @ 2 jerks in the class. But you're right, good example means something. Well, if they take us we are going. 


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----------



## lalachka

Cassidy's mom, yeah, I don't want anyone calling my boy an 'unruly beast' lol (from another thread). I'd feel better if he wasn't the only one with the problem but whatever, I will go to any class as long as they take us. 


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----------



## David Winners

Cassidy's Mom said:


> We actually had a great experience with a reactive dog class. It may sound strange, but it was FAR more relaxing than being "those people" with "that dog" that was disrupting the class! All the dogs were there for the same reason, and had varying levels of reactivity, and ours was somewhere in the middle of the pack - a few were much worse than Cassidy and a few were not quite as bad. That made it much less stressful for US, and in turn, gave HER less to feed off of.
> 
> The class had a very high ratio of instructors and assistants per dog, if I remember correctly (this was back in 2001), there was one for every 2 dogs in the class. We did lots of very structured, very controlled exercises, and each week we were able to work the dogs closer and closer to each other. All the dogs improved greatly in those 6 weeks. I don't know that any of us could have accomplished the same thing in a regular obedience class, or on our own.


I don't have that many helpers lol!

Sounds like a great class, and the proof is in the results.

Lala, don't worry about it. Your dog will be fine. You can learn right along with him with a good instructor.

David Winners


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

David Winners said:


> I don't have that many helpers lol!
> 
> Sounds like a great class, and the proof is in the results.


It really was! It was at a humane society, and in order to register we had to first have an evaluation by one of the trainers in their behavior and training department to see if she would be a good candidate for the class. All of their training classes have an instructor and at least one and often 2 assistants (who are shelter volunteers), but this one had more assistant trainers than usual since all the dogs had issues. It would be difficult to have a class with 8/10/12 reactive dogs and just one instructor. 

There was a regular obedience class I took there with Halo that had a very reactive dog in it, and they set up a "condo" of PVC framed cloth barriers for the owner to work within. I assume they didn't have enough dogs for a reactive class at the time, so they made accommodations to block the other dogs from his view. Usually the dog was already there in his condo before anyone else arrived, but one time the owner arrived after some of us were already in the room, and the trainer and owner hustled him in the side door to the nearby condo, after instructing everyone else to turn their dogs facing away and to engage them, so they weren't staring at the dog as it came into the room. 

Even in regular classes dogs would sometimes look at the neighboring dog and get a bit barky, so they'd put one of the barriers between them.


----------



## selzer

I think though, the dog needs to work around other people and dogs. You get used to one trainer person pretty quickly, and after six or ten weeks, you have a dog that is 2 months older and that much more difficult to manage the group class. If you step out now in the group, and you have the instructor show you how to manage the situation, you might just not have to be in a reactive dog class. 

Though, if all the reactive dog classes are a good experience that Cassidy's Mom had, it would not be that much of a problem. I haven't been in any specific for reactive dogs, but I was in a CGC class once where all but mine and one golden was, and they seriously fed off of each other. 

The thing about young adolescent dogs, is that you can often nip-it-in-the-bud a whole lot easier. But every week that goes by, your dog is moving out of the young adolescent stage, until it will become a major undertaking to iron out the stupid behaviors. Not impossible. Just more work.


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## lalachka

Lol, selzer, I was just clicking to pm you. But since you replied...

I'm taking your advice and asking every trainer about classes. I'm still thinking of doing at least one private session just so I can unload and so they can look at my dog. 

I have other problems to deal with that can't be dealt with in class. SA, him attacking one of my cats. That's all I can think of off hand. 
Anyway, a bunch of trainers replied, they all sound good. I'm not posting this just to post but I'm really having a problem picking. 

I'm hoping to find a trainer I can work with for the rest of his life. Should I dismiss all purely positives? I don't agree with no physical corrections after the learning phase. 

Or should I just go to a class ASAP, the first one that takes me and in the mean while look for the trainer that does both treats and corrections?

It's hard to choose, they all sound really good. 


Also, Cassidy mom's class sounds perfect, i'd love a class like that. Or should I go to any class? Literally the first that takes us? Or should I choose? But choose how?

Don't laugh at me lol, I have problems picking things out. I can get stuck picking for ages, that's why I usually take the first thing that works even though there might be better out there. 


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## lalachka

Another big question, should I stay away from trainers who specialize in board and train. I know they also can train in other ways, I'm thinking if board and train is their specialty then maybe they're not that good at other ways. 

Is that true?


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## selzer

I don't know about the board and train. A good trainer can train dogs, and train people to train their dogs. A good trainer needs to have experience with dogs. Their own dogs. And it stands to figure that other people's dogs will give them experience too. 

But a trainer who is limited on the type of dogs he has trained, or on how many dogs/people they have worked with, they will probably be limited on what they KNOW works. 

The thing is, if you apply something EXACTLY the same way as the trainer does, you can have a different outcome than the trainer. Why is this? Because dogs can sense our weaknesses, our body language, our confidence much better than we do. If, for example, we are hesitant to give a correction with a prong collar, our dog may, most likely will, sense that hesitation. If we have an aversion to some training methods, they simply will not work for us. For example Victoria Stillwell is not going to pull off putting a dog on its side the way Cesar does. And she happens to have quite a bit of confidence and dogs do recognize that and respond. But she would not have confidence in doing that, and it just won't work unless she can fool the dog into believing that she does. Much easier to find a better method.

I think that purely positive trainers have to have a much greater _tool box_ than people who also are willing to use physical corrections. A balanced trainer, will have a large tool box too, but they are also willing to use other training aides and to use corrections when they feel they are necessary. 

What a trainer needs to be able to do, is assess you with your dog, and have you try something, and if that does not seem to work for you and the dog, he has to have other things to try. They cannot be so arrogant, or so inexperienced that they have one method that works for them, and if you will just do what I just did you dolt, it will work for you too. 

Lots of trainers will want you to come with the dog, so they can place you in the right class, or so that they can see the dog work with you without distractions. No problem with that.


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## lalachka

Well then I will take the first one that takes us and go from there. At least now I have all these contacts to fall back on. 

You're right, I should start doing something even if it's not the best, it's better than letting him get away with stuff because I don't know how to address it.

Well, I don't know about all you guys, but for me dogs humping in the park paid off)))))) Who knew that this thread will have me sign up for classes. 

Thank you, Selzer, for your infinite patience. I would've told myself to go pound sand a long time ago


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## JakodaCD OA

Suggestion, I would go WATCH a class before you committ, watch a beginner class if you don't like what they're doing, don't sign up. 

IF they say you can't come 'observe' a class, I'd pass.

If you like what you see, ask if they can give you a one on one evaluation before you step into the sometimes crazy, beginner class. 

And no I don't like board and train, it's someone else training your dog, YOU want to learn WITH the dog..


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> Suggestion, I would go WATCH a class before you committ, watch a beginner class if you don't like what they're doing, don't sign up.
> 
> IF they say you can't come 'observe' a class, I'd pass.
> 
> If you like what you see, ask if they can give you a one on one evaluation before you step into the sometimes crazy, beginner class.
> 
> And no I don't like board and train, it's someone else training your dog, YOU want to learn WITH the dog..


Thank you)))) I definitely will. And no, I would not do board and train. I'm sure someone can train my dog, it's me that needs training not him. 

I was wondering though if those kind of places (that specialize in board and train) have the knowledge to teach me to train, you know what I mean. I emailed about 15 places, almost all replied, I was trying to see how to choose one. 

This sounds like simple stuff (go check a class out before signing up) but for some reason I didn't think about it. 

So you can get offended at me using you as entertainment))))) I def didn't mean it in a bad way and I got tons of really good advice. You'd be surprised how much of it sticks and is acted on.


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## selzer

JakodaCD OA said:


> Suggestion, I would go WATCH a class before you committ, watch a beginner class if you don't like what they're doing, don't sign up.
> 
> IF they say you can't come 'observe' a class, I'd pass.
> 
> If you like what you see, ask if they can give you a one on one evaluation before you step into the sometimes crazy, beginner class.
> 
> And no I don't like board and train, it's someone else training your dog, YOU want to learn WITH the dog..


I took that as going to a board and train place that also offered classes for you to train your dog. I thought he was suggesting he train his own dog. 

I agree though, go and watch a class, and see how the trainer conducts the class. If you can. Do not let this stop you from going to classes, like if classes start on Saturday and she has no other classes prior to Saturday, etc. But if you can, go and watch a class without the dog.


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## JakodaCD OA

I wasn't offended, just thought it wasn't appropriate

They probably do have the knowledge to teach you, but I just wouldn't leave my dog with anyone I didn't know VERY well..in fact I just wouldn't leave my dog..

Some board & trains have the owners come in at varying times and work with them, but the problem with that is, the dog probably turns into rin tin tin with the boarding trainer, you get them home and they turn back into little monsters.

You can always tell how a trainer works by watching a beginner class..most of the dogs are unruly with sometimes un educated owners,,first class of a beginners is usually quite interesting with lots of chaos,,you can tell by how the trainer conducts / works with the clients how well they can handle things..


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> I took that as going to a board and train place that also offered classes for you to train your dog. I thought he was suggesting he train his own dog.
> 
> I agree though, go and watch a class, and see how the trainer conducts the class. If you can. Do not let this stop you from going to classes, like if classes start on Saturday and she has no other classes prior to Saturday, etc. But if you can, go and watch a class without the dog.


I'm not, I will sign up for the first one that takes us and will shop around for everything else in the mean time. I already wasted so much money on stupid useless stuff, wasting it on a bad class won't make a difference.


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I wasn't offended, just thought it wasn't appropriate
> 
> They probably do have the knowledge to teach you, but I just wouldn't leave my dog with anyone I didn't know VERY well..in fact I just wouldn't leave my dog..
> 
> Some board & trains have the owners come in at varying times and work with them, but the problem with that is, the dog probably turns into rin tin tin with the boarding trainer, you get them home and they turn back into little monsters.
> 
> You can always tell how a trainer works by watching a beginner class..most of the dogs are unruly with sometimes un educated owners,,first class of a beginners is usually quite interesting with lots of chaos,,you can tell by how the trainer conducts / works with the clients how well they can handle things..


Are you kidding me?))))) leave him?))))) I can barely stand to leave him when I go to work, I have SA of my own lol


No, they offer regular sessions as well but board and train is offered first. 

In any case, I decided to listen to you guys and not do private training if I can get a class. If I can't then it's a different story.


ETA I don't want to get all happy though, I have a feeling they won't take us. Will see. 

Yes, I want to see how the trainer reacts to unruly dogs. If she just stands there or embarrasses them then I will pass. I get very mean when someone is mean to my dog.


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## angierose

How do dogs get embarrassed?


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## lalachka

angierose said:


> How do dogs get embarrassed?


I misspoke. Did you really not understand what I meant?


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## JakodaCD OA

I think she means trainers embarrassing the owner


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## angierose

lalachka said:


> I misspoke. Did you really not understand what I meant?


It was confusing in context.

I've been embarrassed in classes before because I was doing something wrong. It wasn't the end of the world. I learned.


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## lalachka

angierose said:


> It was confusing in context.
> 
> I've been embarrassed in classes before because I was doing something wrong. It wasn't the end of the world. I learned.


That's fine, it's not the end of the world though it's def unnecessary and there's a way to point out mistakes without embarrassing people or making fun of them. I personally can't stay quiet so that'd be the end of the class for me. 

If im respectful I expect the same back.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> Are you kidding me?))))) leave him?))))) I can barely stand to leave him when I go to work, I have SA of my own lol
> 
> 
> No, they offer regular sessions as well but board and train is offered first.
> 
> In any case, I decided to listen to you guys and not do private training if I can get a class. If I can't then it's a different story.
> 
> 
> ETA I don't want to get all happy though, *I have a feeling they won't take us. *Will see.
> 
> Yes, I want to see how the trainer reacts to unruly dogs. If she just stands there or embarrasses them then I will pass. I get very mean when someone is mean to my dog.


Why? 

Because your dog is not perfect? 

Well, why the heck would you go to classes if your dog was perfect already???

Frankly if you walk into an interview believing they will not hire you, you probably won't be hired. 

If you go to a trainer thinking they will not accept you, they may not. 

You have to change around your thinking. 

Yes, someone may say, that they do not want to work with a dog that is doing XYZ. That is GOOD because that means that person does not feel qualified to handle the situation. Just don't give up before walking through the door.


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## lalachka

lalachka said:


> That's fine, it's not the end of the world though it's def unnecessary and there's a way to point out mistakes without embarrassing people or making fun of them. I personally can't stay quiet so that'd be the end of the class for me.
> 
> If im respectful I expect the same back.


I also can't respect a person that does that and I can't listen to people I don't respect. I guess I'm complicated. 

No one knows everything. I should in turn embarrass her because she doesn't know how to code and do many other things I know how to do?


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> Why?
> 
> Because your dog is not perfect?
> 
> Well, why the heck would you go to classes if your dog was perfect already???
> 
> Frankly if you walk into an interview believing they will not hire you, you probably won't be hired.
> 
> If you go to a trainer thinking they will not accept you, they may not.
> 
> You have to change around your thinking.
> 
> Yes, someone may say, that they do not want to work with a dog that is doing XYZ. That is GOOD because that means that person does not feel qualified to handle the situation. Just don't give up before walking through the door.


I'm not going to give up but i'd rather be prepared for the worst. I hate getting all happy and being disappointed later. I'd rather be wrong and happy later. 


Because I'm afraid they will say he's too aggressive for class. I'm probably exaggerating his aggression and I will be happy to be proven wrong.

I will try signing up for every class I can find until one takes us.


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## selzer

Most trainers would not be in business long by making fun of people for what they do or what their dogs are doing. That is arrogant, childish behavior for the most part. 

Yes, we do have to be able to laugh at ourselves and at our dogs, but I wouldn't stay with a trainer who liked to embarrass people. 

I had a trainer for a while that would say horrible things about everyone's dog. She was awful. The classes would start with 12-14 peole and at the end of six weeks it would be me standing there or me and one other person. We were talking about her, 7 years later at class a week ago -- another victim found her way to my trainer's class, and felt exactly like I did. 

She isn't holding classes now. They don't for long, if they can't hold onto customers. Don't let that worry you.


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## lalachka

Lol why did you stay? Thick skin?


I'm the first one to laugh at myself and to say that I suck at something. I just think there's a way to do it, it def shouldn't come with the intention to embarrass, instead to laugh and learn. I'm all for it, I enjoy those things even if I'm picked as a 'victim'. 

I'm going to take the first class that takes us, and will research others so that I have a backup if something happens there

You guys got me so hyped that I can't wait to get in the class now))))


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## lalachka

I don't know how I come off here but im actually very easy to get along with.


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## Lilie

angierose said:


> How do dogs get embarrassed?


Ah....you've never met my dogs.....


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## angierose

Oh, I think mine get embarrassed _by_ me but it doesn't seem to translate to them. I'd love to embarrass Kaylee enough that she'd stop thinking poop is good food!


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## Baillif

I've never seen it from mine. Fall off the bed? Did anybody see? I meant to do that.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I've never seen it from mine. Fall off the bed? Did anybody see? I meant to do that.


)))))))


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## Lilie

angierose said:


> Oh, I think mine get embarrassed _by_ me but it doesn't seem to translate to them. I'd love to embarrass Kaylee enough that she'd stop thinking poop is good food!


Hondo is a solid, serious dog. He always makes sure I know when I've embarrassed him!


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> Another big question, should I stay away from trainers who specialize in board and train. I know they also can train in other ways, I'm thinking if board and train is their specialty then maybe they're not that good at other ways.
> 
> Is that true?


Not necessarily. I know several excellent trainers who take dogs into their homes for in-board training. One, who just happens to be Michael Ellis's business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel, breeding Belgian Malinois, is someone I've used both as a private trainer, and have also boarded my dogs with. In theory I'm opposed to board and train, but there were many reason why I felt completely comfortable leaving my dogs with Lisa. They both stayed with her when we were on vacation a few years ago, and Halo spent a few weeks at her house while we continued meeting weekly to work with Keefer.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Oh, and at the time, Lisa lived with Andrew Ramsey (Leerburg On Demand | The Foundation of Nosework with Andrew Ramsey), who trained detection dogs for the military at Lackland AFB before moving with her to the Bay Area, so it was 2 trainers for the price of one! Andrew is the one who got Halo into tugging for me.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Lol why did you stay? Thick skin?
> 
> 
> I'm the first one to laugh at myself and to say that I suck at something. I just think there's a way to do it, it def shouldn't come with the intention to embarrass, instead to laugh and learn. I'm all for it, I enjoy those things even if I'm picked as a 'victim'.
> 
> I'm going to take the first class that takes us, and will research others so that I have a backup if something happens there
> 
> You guys got me so hyped that I can't wait to get in the class now))))



Why did I stay? 

I started in a puppy class with her when Jenna was 10 weeks old. She told me that the pup was fearful and going to be a fear-biter. Jenna? Not on your life! But when your pup is 10 weeks old, and well, that was 8 years ago, and I thought maybe she knew more than me. 

The puppy class turned out to be me and a couple of dogs, all of them over a year and very reactive. One yellow labrador slipped its collar twice and charged Jenna both times. 

I was dumb, but I called her afterwards and told her that I thought you said puppy classes were supposed to be dogs under five months old. She told me she did not have any other puppies, except one that wasn't here that week, and so she needed to offer a regular basic class. I continued coming. 

Finally in the last two weeks she had me and the other puppy come later, but then two of the first people stopped coming and the other puppy stopped coming and the last class was me and the one crazy dog she told the owners to not come back until he was neutered.

Jenna was the more confident of the pair of puppies, so I signed up for another class with this woman for Jenna, and one with my current trainer for Babs. They were about 4 months old then. 

When they were eight months old, Jenna was in heat, so I was taking Babs to both classes, and this woman who usually did Shelties, brought out this Great Dane puppy also about 8 months old. 

Her: Tell your dog to sit. 
Me: Babs, Sit
Babs: Butt on ground.
Her: (to her dog) Sit. SIT! SIT! 

Her: Ok, Tell your dog to down. 
Me: Babs, down 
Babs: Butt and Elbows on the ground.
Her (to her dog) DOWN! Ugh! Down! Erg! DOWN 

She then body slammed her dog onto the ground. 

I am just watching, thinking WOW, this woman was all about positive reinforcement, LOL, and she said the prong collar was terrible, and the halti was the way to go (for my reactive young male). She did individual lessons with him -- he was a little older than your boy, but not much. And the closest she got him to anything was a duck. She kept saying how many ribbons she could win with him. Well, sure he was a good dog and well trained, if you could remove all distractions he could work. He would have been just fine too, if I would have just taken him to regular questions, gave him a good correction and worked him through it. 

Instead, I told all the instructors exactly what he was doing -- a little barking at other dogs, and lunging. Well, they thought that meant he bit three people already and killed a small dog, so they wanted individual classes. What a total waste of money. He had been to classes and his basic obedience was fine. He needed to work around other dogs. I took him to a loaded class put a prong on him that the instructor gave me and corrected him when he acted like an idiot, and the dog was much better by the end of the class. It was a one day event, so she told me to find some other classes -- she was relocating to Florida for the winter. Fine. So I found Trish, who told me to take off the prong, he is afraid for his life, and keep him away from all other dogs. Worst advice I ever took.

Then I took the puppy to her, and then I saw her body slam the GD, and I then had her number. 

But by then I had 5 or 6 dogs, and they all needed training, save Arwen. Even bad trainers' classes I can get stuff out of if I trust my gut. 

By the time I started showing in May when the girls were not yet two, I was no longer using her.


----------



## lalachka

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Oh, and at the time, Lisa lived with Andrew Ramsey (Leerburg On Demand | The Foundation of Nosework with Andrew Ramsey), who trained detection dogs for the military at Lackland AFB before moving with her to the Bay Area, so it was 2 trainers for the price of one! Andrew is the one who got Halo into tugging for me.


Speaking of that. I got Michael Ellis DVD on tugging and though I didn't finish watching it (I wanted to do what he taught in the first session before moving on) I can't get my boy that interested in tugging. He will tug a few times but that's it. Also, his bite is frontal. Any pointers?

And thank you for the board and train opinion, that's what I was asking. 

I wish I was near them (Michael and Lindsay). You are?


----------



## Baillif

For tugging especially in the beginning don't worry about your dog biting frontal. You just want to do your best to make the game fun for the puppy, so don't try to "out" him or worry about counters or bite development at first. 

You have to make it interesting by making it "run" from him. Try to do this in straight lines so you don't get bitten on accident. Quick movements of the tug away from him should do the trick. Another trick you could try is to tie one end of the tug to a leash or rope, and then put your dog in a harness and have someone else hold him back. Then you make the tug "run" from him at the edge of where he can get to it but not quite. A little bit of frustration about not being able to get at it when he is chasing may build his desire for it. Just make sure you let him get it fairly often or he might get frustrated and then stop trying. Definitely try to harness his prey drive to get him to really go for that tug.

Just so it's a little more clear when you tie a rope to the tug you start using it like the bait on the end of a flirt pole. Most dogs can't resist a flirt pole and once he catches it you can start to offer a little tug resistance and then let him win when he shakes it or starts pulling against you.

Should also keep your tug sessions short. How old is your puppy again?


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Why did I stay?
> 
> I started in a puppy class with her when Jenna was 10 weeks old. She told me that the pup was fearful and going to be a fear-biter. Jenna? Not on your life! But when your pup is 10 weeks old, and well, that was 8 years ago, and I thought maybe she knew more than me.
> 
> The puppy class turned out to be me and a couple of dogs, all of them over a year and very reactive. One yellow labrador slipped its collar twice and charged Jenna both times.
> 
> I was dumb, but I called her afterwards and told her that I thought you said puppy classes were supposed to be dogs under five months old. She told me she did not have any other puppies, except one that wasn't here that week, and so she needed to offer a regular basic class. I continued coming.
> 
> Finally in the last two weeks she had me and the other puppy come later, but then two of the first people stopped coming and the other puppy stopped coming and the last class was me and the one crazy dog she told the owners to not come back until he was neutered.
> 
> Jenna was the more confident of the pair of puppies, so I signed up for another class with this woman for Jenna, and one with my current trainer for Babs. They were about 4 months old then.
> 
> When they were eight months old, Jenna was in heat, so I was taking Babs to both classes, and this woman who usually did Shelties, brought out this Great Dane puppy also about 8 months old.
> 
> Her: Tell your dog to sit.
> Me: Babs, Sit
> Babs: Butt on ground.
> Her: (to her dog) Sit. SIT! SIT!
> 
> Her: Ok, Tell your dog to down.
> Me: Babs, down
> Babs: Butt and Elbows on the ground.
> Her (to her dog) DOWN! Ugh! Down! Erg! DOWN
> 
> She then body slammed her dog onto the ground.
> 
> I am just watching, thinking WOW, this woman was all about positive reinforcement, LOL, and she said the prong collar was terrible, and the halti was the way to go (for my reactive young male). She did individual lessons with him -- he was a little older than your boy, but not much. And the closest she got him to anything was a duck. She kept saying how many ribbons she could win with him. Well, sure he was a good dog and well trained, if you could remove all distractions he could work. He would have been just fine too, if I would have just taken him to regular questions, gave him a good correction and worked him through it.
> 
> Instead, I told all the instructors exactly what he was doing -- a little barking at other dogs, and lunging. Well, they thought that meant he bit three people already and killed a small dog, so they wanted individual classes. What a total waste of money. He had been to classes and his basic obedience was fine. He needed to work around other dogs. I took him to a loaded class put a prong on him that the instructor gave me and corrected him when he acted like an idiot, and the dog was much better by the end of the class. It was a one day event, so she told me to find some other classes -- she was relocating to Florida for the winter. Fine. So I found Trish, who told me to take off the prong, he is afraid for his life, and keep him away from all other dogs. Worst advice I ever took.
> 
> Then I took the puppy to her, and then I saw her body slam the GD, and I then had her number.
> 
> But by then I had 5 or 6 dogs, and they all needed training, save Arwen. Even bad trainers' classes I can get stuff out of if I trust my gut.
> 
> By the time I started showing in May when the girls were not yet two, I was no longer using her.


 
i love your scenes)))) 

and !!!!! to the green. yes i'm afraid that they will take my description the same way but i just can't not say it, i must be straight up about everything, i can't help it.

however, i might have good news. i might be going to a class soon, the trainer said she can't imagine he's more aggressive than some of the dogs she has there, that's why theyr'e there (her words). so i'm just finding out which class it is (she has a bunch) and how i sign up.

even if it's not the best class, whatever, as you and others said, it's def better than what i'm doing now.

once i go i will meet other people with dogs that are training (as opposed to people in my park who all swear their dogs don't need any) and maybe they know better classes if hers turns out to not be good. i just want to start doing something already.


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> For tugging especially in the beginning don't worry about your dog biting frontal. You just want to do your best to make the game fun for the puppy, so don't try to "out" him or worry about counters or bite development at first.
> 
> You have to make it interesting by making it "run" from him. Try to do this in straight lines so you don't get bitten on accident. Quick movements of the tug away from him should do the trick. Another trick you could try is to tie one end of the tug to a leash or rope, and then put your dog in a harness and have someone else hold him back. Then you make the tug "run" from him at the edge of where he can get to it but not quite. A little bit of frustration about not being able to get at it when he is chasing may build his desire for it. Just make sure you let him get it fairly often or he might get frustrated and then stop trying. Definitely try to harness his prey drive to get him to really go for that tug.


omg, of course i'm doing that. and thank you for the harness suggestion. i don't have a harness though, anyone one would do for this stuff?

so at which point do i start the OUT and worry about the way he bites on it?

ETA do i let him tug endlessly? do i let him win? he tries pretty hard to yank it out of my hands and i sometimes let him. should i?


----------



## Baillif

If you are using the tug for a reward for obedience you don't really need to care about how he bites it at all. A dog will bite the tug how he wants to bite a tug it doesn't reflect on how he will bite a sleeve or a bite pillow (if that's the direction you are going in.) Once you have your dog really playing tug and fighting well for it then you can worry about how he bites it by yanking it away from him if he gets chewy or uses a weak frontal bite.

Let him win A LOT. He should always win (and fairly quickly especially in the beginning) unless his heart really isn't in it and he isn't tired. If he gets tired (it happens fast with pups) end the game and let him cool down for a while before trying again. If he yanks it outta your hands thats great cause thats what you want. Just make sure you keep backing away from him and encouraging him to come at you with the toy. You want him "punching" you with it to keep the game going.

As for harness you can just go with a regular nylon 20 dollar one for your pup. If you ever go into serious bitework you will eventually want a well fitted leather agitation harness with metal fittings and stuff like that.

Outting comes when hes interested and fighting well for it and having fun and really really loves his tug time. Since the primary reward is that he gets to keep playing he has to want to play first. I taught the off command and used out as the command cause it sounded really similar so the dog already kind of knew what I wanted when I stopped the movement in the tug. You will know when the time comes. The most important thing right now is getting him to want that tug and then coming back to you to keep playing after he wins it. You get that by "running" from the pup when he wins it.


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> If you are using the tug for a reward for obedience you don't really need to care about how he bites it at all. A dog will bite the tug how he wants to bite a tug it doesn't reflect on how he will bite a sleeve or a bite pillow (if that's the direction you are going in.) Once you have your dog really playing tug and fighting well for it then you can worry about how he bites it by yanking it away from him if he gets chewy or uses a weak frontal bite.
> 
> Let him win A LOT. He should always win (and fairly quickly especially in the beginning) unless his heart really isn't in it and he isn't tired. If he gets tired (it happens fast with pups) end the game and let him cool down for a while before trying again. If he yanks it outta your hands thats great cause thats what you want. Just make sure you keep backing away from him and encouraging him to come at you with the toy. You want him "punching" you with it to keep the game going.
> 
> As for harness you can just go with a regular nylon 20 dollar one for your pup. If you ever go into serious bitework you will eventually want a well fitted leather agitation harness with metal fittings and stuff like that.
> 
> Outting comes when hes interested and fighting well for it and having fun and really really loves his tug time. Since the primary reward is that he gets to keep playing he has to want to play first. I taught the off command and used out as the command cause it sounded really similar so the dog already kind of knew what I wanted when I stopped the movement in the tug. You will know when the time comes. The most important thing right now is getting him to want that tug and then coming back to you to keep playing after he wins it. You get that by "running" from the pup when he wins it.


thank you very much, yes, this is obedience only. i probably will never be interested in bite work and even if i was, i doubt my dog has the temperament for it from what i'm reading.

yeah, i got confused because i'm watching his videos and i see them testing out how the pups are biting the tug and i thought they had to bite a certain way.

i will buy the harness and try this out. i need the harness for the COME command as well, same principle as you described (again, Michael Ellis lol, i obviously love his work), someone holding him and not letting him get to me until he calms down just a tiny bit and then letting him go.


thank you so much!!!


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> i love your scenes))))
> 
> and !!!!! to the green. yes i'm afraid that they will take my description the same way but i just can't not say it, i must be straight up about everything, i can't help it.
> 
> however, i might have good news. i might be going to a class soon, the trainer said she can't imagine he's more aggressive than some of the dogs she has there, that's why theyr'e there (her words). so i'm just finding out which class it is (she has a bunch) and how i sign up.
> 
> even if it's not the best class, whatever, as you and others said, it's def better than what i'm doing now.
> 
> once i go i will meet other people with dogs that are training (as opposed to people in my park who all swear their dogs don't need any) and maybe they know better classes if hers turns out to not be good. i just want to start doing something already.


And, this is why I did not encourage you not to say all that in your e-mail. Believe that I typed it out, and then I hit the back button. We have to tell the trainers how we see what is going on, and then it is up to them to take us at face value or not. 

After the fiasco with my boy, taking him to two different trainers besides the lady with the GD. And the last one was supposed to have other dogs come in during the session, but after the first week, the husband had to go somewhere, and the third week they didn't bring a dog, and well, it's like I said, the boy was perfectly friendly with people, and and his obedience was good. I worked with him and it was useless without other dogs. 

And afterwards, I kept going to these classes with all these dogs charging at me and my dogs. Much more reactive than my boy was, and there they are in regular classes, and they are getting better. Well, I don't complain because they need to be there. Gretta was bitten in the back once -- no damage. I was charged a few times. But out of probably 20 dogs that I have taken to many, many classes over the past 8 years, that isn't a bad track record. 

Lots of people do not consider classes until dogs are having issues. You are not alone. Lots of people have dogs that have an issue, and take them to classes. Just make sure you keep him under wraps. I mean, don't give him too much line, and adjust your path to make sure you are not running right up on anyone. You need to keep your mind on your dog. 

We have a pair of little white terriers -- yeah the one that bit Gretta, the guy is an older fellow, and he gets so distracted -- the man, not the dog. The dog is a little terror and always ready to scrap. The guy doesn't keep his mind on his dog, and his dog zips off and lunges and tries to get to other dogs, and then he is like, that was your dog -- huh!?! Whatever.


----------



## Baillif

Don't worry about the pup selection stuff. They are selecting dogs for ring sports and other bite sports where they are looking for a dog that bites with a deep bite naturally, since it is one less thing they have to actually train. The puppies they really want are super energetic crackhead pups that want to bite everything they can get their teeth on.

If your puppy ever had a landshark stage he probably has the temperament for it somewhere down inside him it is just a matter of finding it and tapping that. It is hard to say whether a pup "has it" or not until they are older. Sometimes you have a laid back puppy that becomes a monster and sometimes you have a monster puppy that becomes a laid back dog, although that is generally less common.

Just make it fun and keep it fun and exciting. If you are doing it right you will be sweating and huffing and puffing, and probably look like an idiot to anyone who is watching.


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> And, this is why I did not encourage you not to say all that in your e-mail. Believe that I typed it out, and then I hit the back button. We have to tell the trainers how we see what is going on, and then it is up to them to take us at face value or not.
> 
> After the fiasco with my boy, taking him to two different trainers besides the lady with the GD. And the last one was supposed to have other dogs come in during the session, but after the first week, the husband had to go somewhere, and the third week they didn't bring a dog, and well, it's like I said, the boy was perfectly friendly with people, and and his obedience was good. I worked with him and it was useless without other dogs.
> 
> And afterwards, I kept going to these classes with all these dogs charging at me and my dogs. Much more reactive than my boy was, and there they are in regular classes, and they are getting better. Well, I don't complain because they need to be there. Gretta was bitten in the back once -- no damage. I was charged a few times. But out of probably 20 dogs that I have taken to many, many classes over the past 8 years, that isn't a bad track record.
> 
> Lots of people do not consider classes until dogs are having issues. You are not alone. Lots of people have dogs that have an issue, and take them to classes. Just make sure you keep him under wraps. I mean, don't give him too much line, and adjust your path to make sure you are not running right up on anyone. You need to keep your mind on your dog.
> 
> We have a pair of little white terriers -- yeah the one that bit Gretta, the guy is an older fellow, and he gets so distracted -- the man, not the dog. The dog is a little terror and always ready to scrap. The guy doesn't keep his mind on his dog, and his dog zips off and lunges and tries to get to other dogs, and then he is like, that was your dog -- huh!?! Whatever.


lol i do believe it))))) 

i also can't believe that all you guys after having all these dogs and obviously all this experience still go to classes with every new dog. do you do it for the other dogs' company? or what is it?

i also can't believe how your dogs didn't develop fear aggresion after the attacks.

and question, you said one of the trainers gave you advice to keep him away from all other dogs because he's scared and you said it was the worst advice.

what happened? you did as she said and what happened? i didn't umderstand that part and why the advice was bad. because he has to be around other dogs to get over the fear?


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Don't worry about the pup selection stuff. They are selecting dogs for ring sports and other bite sports where they are looking for a dog that bites with a deep bite naturally, since it is one less thing they have to actually train. The puppies they really want are super energetic crackhead pups that want to bite everything they can get their teeth on.
> 
> If your puppy ever had a landshark stage he probably has the temperament for it somewhere down inside him it is just a matter of finding it and tapping that. It is hard to say whether a pup "has it" or not until they are older. Sometimes you have a laid back puppy that becomes a monster and sometimes you have a monster puppy that becomes a laid back dog, although that is generally less common.


i actually meant his fear issues (IF he actually has fear aggression). they say that pups must have perfect nerves and my boy still freaks out at things and barks.

i don't really care about all that right now, i doubt i will ever be interested in doing it but then again, never know. i didn't think i'd have a dog either. or, as lazy as i am, that i will be taking care of him and enjoying it (my daughter wanted him and she was supposed to do all the training and exercise)


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## JakodaCD OA

I love classes, with each dog it's something new, you meet new people, develop new friendships.

My aussie was always a PP type of dog, a correction would turn her into a marshmellow, so we went to PP type classes.

My shepherds, went to a wonderful trainer who used reward based training, but corrections as needed..

Masi was the first dog I've ever had who is not food motivated, all toy..Thought I'd try a PP class for her, it did not work out, it was a BIG mistake, new trainer, who's own dog was an idiot, no control over the class, a bunch of aggressive dogs while I had a 4 mth old puppy who was NOT having a good time, 2nd class I dumped it with her, took the aussie who fit right in and wasn't intimidated by the chaos.

Took Masi to a koehler based class, where we used only praise as a reward and she LOVED it, she was happy, loved to go in the building, and has done really well with that type of training..

So I try to use what training type works for the particular dog I'm working. 

And classes are a great way to work on proofing distractions..


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## Baillif

That makes it easy then. Just focus on making sure he is having fun and bringing it back to you when he wins. You can even use fetch and a ball as a reward in that case, it would work the same way as tug. You would maybe get more reps out of a fetch reward too, because nothing blasts a puppy faster than a good tug match.


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I love classes, with each dog it's something new, you meet new people, develop new friendships.
> 
> My aussie was always a PP type of dog, a correction would turn her into a marshmellow, so we went to PP type classes.
> 
> My shepherds, went to a wonderful trainer who used reward based training, but corrections as needed..
> 
> Masi was the first dog I've ever had who is not food motivated, all toy..Thought I'd try a PP class for her, it did not work out, it was a BIG mistake, new trainer, who's own dog was an idiot, no control over the class, a bunch of aggressive dogs while I had a 4 mth old puppy who was NOT having a good time, 2nd class I dumped it with her, took the aussie who fit right in and wasn't intimidated by the chaos.
> 
> Took Masi to a koehler based class, where we used only praise as a reward and she LOVED it, she was happy, loved to go in the building, and has done really well with that type of training..
> 
> So I try to use what training type works for the particular dog I'm working.
> 
> And classes are a great way to work on proofing distractions..


 
lol, i don't have much to proof, he doesn't know any commands reliably yet. he doesn't even sit every time.

i'm sure i'm going to love the classes as well, i'm the type that it's very hard for me to decide to do something or go somewhere but once i'm there - i love it.


how did you end up with a trainer whose dog was an idiot? you didn't look at the class first? also, how come you go to new classes, you never found a trainer that you love and that you go to ALL THE TIME?


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> That makes it easy then. Just focus on making sure he is having fun and bringing it back to you when he wins. You can even use fetch and a ball as a reward in that case, it would work the same way as tug. You would maybe get more reps out of a fetch reward too, because nothing blasts a puppy faster than a good tug match.


you mean tires them out? i didn't know that.

i can't do fetch))))) it's embarassing but i still can't get him to bring me back whatever i threw. he loves to do things like run back towards me, once i say "Good bo..." he runs right by me and i stand there with my arms open)))))

he's so cute with most of his mischief that i can't stop myself from laughing and miss the training point.


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## Baillif

Oh yeah tug will tire a puppy out faster than a jog if they are fighting good for it. Will tire the human out too.






Too much dog for that kid!


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Oh yeah tug will tire a puppy out faster than a jog if they are fighting good for it. Will tire the human out too.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFZhQbM8i8
> 
> Too much dog for that kid!


Cool video, yeah, my boy does this shaking from side to side, I get scared he will pop his neck and I let him have it. Should I not get scared?

I'd love to play tug with that dog though)))))


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## JakodaCD OA

> how did you end up with a trainer whose dog was an idiot? you didn't look at the class first? also, how come you go to new classes, you never found a trainer that you love and that you go to ALL THE TIME?


Decided to try this PP class and I knew the owners of the facility...Not for me and Masi that's for sure.

I have had a couple trainers I've really enjoyed, went to them for years but they both retired from training.

I have one now that I do drop ins when I'm in the mood, Masi is pretty much where I want her, so most of the time we are hiking or doing some other doggie activity..


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## Baillif

He won't shake his own head loose lol. If it would hurt him he wouldn't do it. You want that if you are teaching bite development. When you let him win it when he does that shake he learns to do it more. That's actually the best way to teach him to continue doing it lol.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> lol i do believe it)))))
> 
> i also can't believe that all you guys after having all these dogs and obviously all this experience still go to classes with every new dog. do you do it for the other dogs' company? or what is it?
> 
> i also can't believe how your dogs didn't develop fear aggresion after the attacks.
> 
> and question, you said one of the trainers gave you advice to keep him away from all other dogs because he's scared and you said it was the worst advice.
> 
> what happened? you did as she said and what happened? i didn't umderstand that part and why the advice was bad. because he has to be around other dogs to get over the fear?


Let's see, 
Arwen: basic, Advanced w/Gretta, Advanced with Sandi
Dubya: basic w/Bonnie, 
Jenna: Puppy/Basic w/Trish, Advanced w/Trish, CGC w/Trish, Advanced w/Sandi, Agility w/Trish, obedience w/Jane
Babs Basic, w/Sandi, Advanced w/Sandi, CGC w/Sandi, Advanced w/Sandi
Rush: Basic, Advanced, CGC, Basic, Advanced, CGC, CGC, Advanced all w/Sandi
Heidi: Puppy, Basic, Advanced, CGC, Advanced all w/Sandi
Whitney: Puppy, Basic, Advanced, CGC all w/Sandi
Tori: Puppy, Basic, Advanced, CGC all w/Sandi
Millauppy, Basic, Advanced, CGC all w/Sandi
Ninja: Basic w/sandi, Basic/Petsmart, CGC + Advanced w/Sandi
Joy: Star puppy, star puppy, Basic, Advanced, CGC, Rally all w/Sandi; Agility w/Gretta, Conformation w/Kathy
Bear: Puppy, Basic, CGC, Advanced w/Sandi
Dolly: Basic, Advanced w/Sandi
Gretta: Basic, CGC w/Sandi
Beansy (Lola), Puppy, Basic, CGC w/Sandi
Hannah: Basic w/Sandi
Hermione (not sure): Basic w/Sandi
Odessa: Basic w/ Sandi
Karma: puppy w/Sandi, Basic w/Sandi
Kaiah (Gretal): basic w/Sandi
Lord (Zeke): Just there for socialization
Lassie finished Karma's Basic class
Lassie and Karma are starting again on Saturday. 

Why? Because I am a glutten for punishment. Or maybe because the instructor gives us Hershey bars at the end of the last class. Maybe it is my form of exercise. Maybe because it keeps me in touch with DOG people. Maybe because each dog does need to learn to function around other people AND dogs. Maybe because I did sell a few of those dogs and having them learn the basic commands and be around other people and dogs gives me more information when I went to place them. Maybe because training classes are a good place for dogs if you intend to show them in performance events. And, maybe because if I haven't paid money to train the dogs, I might not get my butt out there and do it. Maybe all of those reasons. 

And maybe because I didn't with my first GSD. 

What I know is that it is good for me, and for my dogs, and in the summer, I take my older girls to the class after basic, which is a pay as you go, drop in class, where I can take this girl for week or two, and that girl for a week or two. I took Babsy the last day because Lord was sold, and she worked so well for me. I could have taken one of the youngsters but it was the last week. If I could have strung a couple of weeks together, I would have taken Hannah or Bear.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> He won't shake his own head loose lol. If it would hurt him he wouldn't do it. You want that if you are teaching bite development. When you let him win it when he does that shake he learns to do it more. That's actually the best way to teach him to continue doing it lol.


it looks so violent)))))
but i don't know if i agree with the red. the way he used to pull on the choke chain and even now the prong sometimes. there's no way that doesn't hurt, he probably is too worked up to feel the pain but it still must be doing damage.

now when he lunges i hold his neck with my hands so that he's not chocking himself out


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## lalachka

omg Selzer. forget the classes, what a memory. or do you have it stored somewhere?

are they listed in any special order? if so then what's wrong with Sandi lol? if you went to so many of her classes you must like her, why the others?


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> He won't shake his own head loose lol. If it would hurt him he wouldn't do it. You want that if you are teaching bite development. When you let him win it when he does that shake he learns to do it more. That's actually the best way to teach him to continue doing it lol.


Baillif, how do you know so much about the tugs and bites? you're training for biting sports or protection?
i also see you like Michael Ellis lol))))))

i actually also like Ed Frawley. i haven't seen any of his videos but i did read almost all his stuff and i like most of it.


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## selzer

What the boy needed was to be given a solid correction and worked anyway around the distractions. He needed to learn to focus on me, not on the other dogs. The dog was just going through a stupid phase, and he would have been just fine if I would have continued to work with him, on lead, around other dogs. Instead I spent months going to individual classes that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to manage the issue. And then I was busy with the others, he was older by then, and spent my energy on the other dogs. When he was older, my sister was walking him and I was behind with Arwen, and a poodle darted off someone's porch right into them. The boy did nothing. He did not agress or act stupid in anyway. She was jogging ahead with him, and I couldn't have prevented anything, but it was totally unnecessary.

I could have taken that boy to shows and did more with him, but I let some yayhoo convince me he needed all kinds of behavior modification training, one on one. When he really did not. He was just a young goofy dog going through a stupid phase.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> omg Selzer. forget the classes, what a memory. or do you have it stored somewhere?
> 
> are they listed in any special order? if so then what's wrong with Sandi lol? if you went to so many of her classes you must like her, why the others?


I titled six dogs the one year, and was working with 9, and I was working at the time, so I used whatever classes Sandi had, and it just wasn't enough. So I had to go to a few more. 

I took Ninja to the petsmart classes for added distractions I felt she needed. 

Agility and conformation were classes that Sandi didn't offer. 

I am pickier now. After the yayhoo whose claim to fame was owning a 2 year old badly behaved bloodhound, I don't know, I think I don't have quite that much tolerance left in me.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> What the boy needed was to be given a solid correction and worked anyway around the distractions. He needed to learn to focus on me, not on the other dogs. The dog was just going through a stupid phase, and he would have been just fine if I would have continued to work with him, on lead, around other dogs. Instead I spent months going to individual classes that did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to manage the issue. And then I was busy with the others, he was older by then, and spent my energy on the other dogs. When he was older, my sister was walking him and I was behind with Arwen, and a poodle darted off someone's porch right into them. The boy did nothing. He did not agress or act stupid in anyway. She was jogging ahead with him, and I couldn't have prevented anything, but it was totally unnecessary.
> 
> I could have taken that boy to shows and did more with him, but I let some yayhoo convince me he needed all kinds of behavior modification training, one on one. When he really did not. He was just a young goofy dog going through a stupid phase.


 
few questions. first, what's a "solid correction" to you?

2nd, yes, Michael Ellis also says that some dogs go through this fear phase and a lot of times it just goes away on its own. 
i want to believe that this is what happened with my boy and it's just a phase but i'm too much of a pessimist for that. i'm here blaming myself, remembering every little rough play session i let him get into with other dogs, all the situations that in my opinion could've scared him and other dumb things that I've done that i won't list here.

do dogs actually go through these periods AND THEY LUNGE AT PEOPLE? i was also told by my first trainer that i have a fear barker that will turn into a fear biter. that's why this thought is stuck with me and i'm trying to understand where i went wrong to make him have fear issues.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> I titled six dogs the one year, and was working with 9, and I was working at the time, so I used whatever classes Sandi had, and it just wasn't enough. So I had to go to a few more.
> 
> I took Ninja to the petsmart classes for added distractions I felt she needed.
> 
> Agility and conformation were classes that Sandi didn't offer.
> 
> I am pickier now. After the yayhoo whose claim to fame was owning a 2 year old badly behaved bloodhound, I don't know, I think I don't have quite that much tolerance left in me.


 lolololololol


----------



## Baillif

I've been training for ringsports and have been lucky enough to hook up with a trainer in my area that is a Michael Ellis style mondioring trainer. He also worked with Ivan Balabanov so he is fairly well connected in the ringsport world. There is also a healthy club for it here so there are lots of people to learn from in this area that really really know their stuff. It started when I got a Belgian Malinois pup that I was worried I would have issues wearing out if I didn't get him a sport or a job. He was a wild full of energy puppy.

I actually met up with them after asking Cindy Rhodes (Ed's Wife) about whether she knew anyone in this area who she'd recommend as a trainer. You might consider emailing Cindy about trainers if you ever want to get into it further. Trainers and breeders in sports like that tend to network pretty heavily. There is a reason for it too. The best breeders tend to want to make sure their best pups go to the best trainers or top competitors so that they can win titles and recognition and further the value of their breeding lines. I've even heard of many breeders giving their dogs away to certain trainers for free in hopes of getting a championship under the belts of their kennels.

By the way you can use tug to get the dog to play fetch with you better. Once you get the dog bringing the tug to you after he wins it to continue the game you can start throwing it. He will then have a reason to go get it and bring it back to you to try to start a tug game without you ever having to say anything. You can then go back and freeshape your retrieve commands. In other words you already have him performing the fetch actions consistently without commands then you simply name the command as he is doing it. So you would say fetch! And throw it and when he is bringing it back you say Bring! He will eventually associate the actions with the words. That's why when teaching a dog to retrieve a ball I'd prefer to start with one on a rope or string, so that I can use the tug fight as a reward for bringing it back.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Just so it's a little more clear when you tie a rope to the tug you start using it like the bait on the end of a flirt pole. Most dogs can't resist a flirt pole and once he catches it you can start to offer a little tug resistance and then let him win when he shakes it or starts pulling against you.
> 
> Should also keep your tug sessions short. How old is your puppy again?


 
hey, i just noticed this. he's 9 months. i keep them short and every 20-30 minutes try again (during the 3 hours outside) and after 2 sessions or so he will just ignore the tug.

however, he LOVES the flirt pole and will tug on the end of it once he catched it. i let him catch it very often because (am i too paranoid about everything??) i read here that young dogs can get OCD if they get shoulder injury and to not let them stop short and stuff like that.

and he chases the flirt pole so violently and attacks it with the short stop that i'm afraid he will hurt himself.

i'm already scared that he has HD, now every now and then it seems like he's limping but so lightly that it's hard to catch.

it's entirely possibly that i'm just a paranoid one but i'm really afraid of hurtinig him.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> few questions. first, what's a "solid correction" to you?
> 
> 2nd, yes, Michael Ellis also says that some dogs go through this fear phase and a lot of times it just goes away on its own.
> i want to believe that this is what happened with my boy and it's just a phase but i'm too much of a pessimist for that. i'm here blaming myself, remembering every little rough play session i let him get into with other dogs, all the situations that in my opinion could've scared him and other dumb things that 've dont that i won't list here.
> 
> do dogs actually go through these periods AND THEY LUNGE AT PEOPLE? i was also told by my first trainer that i have a fear barker that will turn into a fear biter. that's why this thought is stuck with me and i'm trying to understand where i went wrong to make him have fear issues.


Your fear barker WILL turn into a fear biter if you do not work through this stage. If you keep him at home, and never take him anywhere and muzzle him to get him to the vet, then he will probably be a fear biter. Right now when he is still a youngster, get him out there, put a prong on him, and if he lunges with prong on, give him a correction, and walk on. Do not dwell on it, but try to stay a little further away from whatever he reacted to. After a week or two, come a little be closer, and just keep going with him. 

Maturity, and being exposed at a distance will improve the situation if you regularly keep going out and are consistent. 

I put a prong on the boy, for that class and he was much better by the end of it, and then the other trainer told me to lose it, which I did. I generally do not use prongs. But I don't have reactive dogs either. One of my girls thought she would bark at a dog the first day of her first class, and I corrected her on a flat collar and moved on, and she never did that again. 

Karma barked at EVERY dog in puppy class a few months ago. Uhg! They said, you are just going to sit here and give her treats. I did -- but not when she barked. The next week she did not bark at anyone. Go figure. 

I am not sure if your dog needs a solid correction or not. I think mine did, and to be worked through it for a couple of weeks/months. Just keep going, and let the dog know you got things covered, and it is not going away because he is barking and acting like an idiot. 

Maturity, exposure at a safe distance will desensitize the dog to the problem, and training him to increase the bond -- his trust/confidence in you and in himself, and yours in him.


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I've been training for ringsports and have been lucky enough to hook up with a trainer in my area that is a Michael Ellis style mondioring trainer. He also worked with Ivan Balabanov so he is fairly well connected in the ringsport world. There is also a healthy club for it here so there are lots of people to learn from in this area that really really know their stuff. It started when I got a Belgian Malinois pup that I was worried I would have issues wearing out if I didn't get him a sport or a job. He was a wild full of energy puppy.
> 
> I actually met up with them after asking Cindy Rhodes (Ed's Wife) about whether she knew anyone in this area who she'd recommend as a trainer. You might consider emailing Cindy about trainers if you ever want to get into it further. Trainers and breeders in sports like that tend to network pretty heavily. There is a reason for it too. The best breeders tend to want to make sure their best pups go to the best trainers or top competitors so that they can win titles and recognition and further the value of their breeding lines. I've even heard of many breeders giving their dogs away to certain trainers for free in hopes of getting a championship under the belts of their kennels.
> 
> By the way you can use tug to get the dog to play fetch with you better. Once you get the dog bringing the tug to you after he wins it to continue the game you can start throwing it. He will then have a reason to go get it and bring it back to you to try to start a tug game without you ever having to say anything. You can then go back and freeshape your retrieve commands. In other words you already have him performing the fetch actions consistently without commands then you simply name the command as he is doing it. So you would say fetch! And throw it and when he is bringing it back you say Bring! He will eventually associate the actions with the words. That's why when teaching a dog to retrieve a ball I'd prefer to start with one on a rope or string, so that I can use the tug fight as a reward for bringing it back.


 
lol, i emailed Cindy a few times, about his aggression first then asking if they can do a training session or if they can recommend a good trainer.

yeah, you sound like you know a lot about, not that i'm the one to judge lol

i don't know if i ever will get in the sport, right now i'm def not interested but i see people get so addicted to it that i don't consider it impossible that one day it will click.

i can't get him to bring the tug back lol. as soon as he gets it from me he tried to bury it))))))) i love him

anyway, he's not trained at all, i just started, he knows nothing. i have a ball on a string and sometimes he will bring it back and others he won't.

i think i'm asking for too much too soon.


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## selzer

I don't know about the lunging at people. I think that a dog when it is fearful and uncertain, will bark and lunge at what he is afraid of. I think my boy did not lunge at people because he felt confident in me to handle humans. But he did not feel confident that I could keep dogs from eating him. So he was had to tell them to get off of his cloud. 

Be doubly vigilent. If there are kids running around approaching, step in front of the dog and say firmly he is not familiar with children. And do not let some stupid parent offer their child up to help you socialize him. 

As you go through the process of training him. Somewhere down the line, maybe a year, you will know what he is thinking before he gives you any indication. You will know him a whole lot better. At that time, you can make a decision as to whether you want to carefully decrease the distance between him and children/people.


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> Your fear barker WILL turn into a fear biter if you do not work through this stage. If you keep him at home, and never take him anywhere and muzzle him to get him to the vet, then he will probably be a fear biter. Right now when he is still a youngster, get him out there, put a prong on him, and if he lunges with prong on, give him a correction, and walk on. Do not dwell on it, but try to stay a little further away from whatever he reacted to. After a week or two, come a little be closer, and just keep going with him.
> 
> Maturity, and being exposed at a distance will improve the situation if you regularly keep going out and are consistent.
> 
> I put a prong on the boy, for that class and he was much better by the end of it, and then the other trainer told me to lose it, which I did. I generally do not use prongs. But I don't have reactive dogs either. One of my girls thought she would bark at a dog the first day of her first class, and I corrected her on a flat collar and moved on, and she never did that again.
> 
> Karma barked at EVERY dog in puppy class a few months ago. Uhg! They said, you are just going to sit here and give her treats. I did -- but not when she barked. The next week she did not bark at anyone. Go figure.
> 
> I am not sure if your dog needs a solid correction or not. I think mine did, and to be worked through it for a couple of weeks/months. Just keep going, and let the dog know you got things covered, and it is not going away because he is barking and acting like an idiot.
> 
> Maturity, exposure at a safe distance will desensitize the dog to the problem, and training him to increase the bond -- his trust/confidence in you and in himself, and yours in him.


 
oh no, i'm not correcting him for this. and i'm not going to correct him anytime soon. i do believe in corrections once he learns the commands and doesn't do them, like refuses to. 
i was just wondering what's a correction to you, a pop on the prong? that's what it means to me, so it's all about how hard to pop.

to me those are corrections.

anyway, i did correct him for barking and lunging for a month or so and it didn't work. of course it didn't, if he's scared - corrections don't work.

we are outside every day, i haven't skipped a day since i got him. every day for at least 2 hours at night we go to the park. sometimes more, sometimes more than once a day, we walk the streets too. so he's outside every day and no muzzles for him, thankfully he's not there yet. he doesn't know how to wear one yet.


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> I don't know about the lunging at people. I think that a dog when it is fearful and uncertain, will bark and lunge at what he is afraid of. I think my boy did not lunge at people because he felt confident in me to handle humans. But he did not feel confident that I could keep dogs from eating him. So he was had to tell them to get off of his cloud.
> 
> Be doubly vigilent. If there are kids running around approaching, step in front of the dog and say firmly he is not familiar with children. And do not let some stupid parent offer their child up to help you socialize him.
> 
> As you go through the process of training him. Somewhere down the line, maybe a year, you will know what he is thinking before he gives you any indication. You will know him a whole lot better. At that time, you can make a decision as to whether you want to carefully decrease the distance between him and children/people.


i've done dumb stuff, i have an idea why he's scared of people. i let my fried who's pure force handle him a few times when he was 'acting out' (he wasn't acting out, i was just dumb). i'm a freaking idiot, i cringe every time i think about it.

she didn't do anything horrible, but he's still scared of her.


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## Blanketback

Is he a very bouncy puppy in general - does he jump on you? I'm asking because the fact that he's untrained, and if he's a jumper anyway, will be another reason why he lunges. Basically, that's all he can do if he's jumping forward while on a leash.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Is he a very bouncy puppy in general - does he jump on you? I'm asking because the fact that he's untrained, and if he's a jumper anyway, will be another reason why he lunges. Basically, that's all he can do if he's jumping forward while on a leash.


I wouldn't say he is. Only when i come home, or don't see him for 3 mins he goes into this hysteria of crying and jumping all over the place. Other than that he's pretty content laying down most of the time. He's not a crack pup. Even when we are outside if there are no dogs around and I don't engage him he will pick a stick and lay with it, eating it. 

I can't read him at all. I don't understand why he has his outbursts. Some make sense, others don't. I'd love it for someone experienced to be there every time he has one so they can explain it. 


When he lunges his hair stands but his tail is not tucked. That can still be fear though. 


I can't read him at all!!!!


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## Packen

Can you post a video of your dog? Just saw this thread, it must be interesting.


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## lalachka

Packen said:


> Can you post a video of your dog? Just saw this thread, it must be interesting.


I will, it will take a few days, probably next weekend. I'm usually out at night except weekends and it will take time to get enough episodes.


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## Packen

Cool, when you do can you send me a pm? I can't keep track of threads like these where it goes to 100 pages of nothing


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## Baillif

It's not too much too soon, it is just a learning process for you and your dog. He is more than old enough to handle training. You just need to learn how he ticks and how to motivate him to get the behaviors you want. When you first start out it is all about motivation. Find out what he wants and likes, and use access to those things to get what you want out of him. You do sound a little paranoid about the dog getting hurt though. With some dogs it is warranted to a point. I had a working breed Labrador that wouldn't hesitate to jump off a building if he could catch his frisbee on the way down, and would run until he killed himself if allowed.

With training there are little nuanced things you have to learn that can spell out the difference between a dog bringing it to you vs running past you or running from you and doing a victory lap with it. For example, if you are finding yourself chasing your dog to try to get it or when hes right about to come to you with it you bend over or lunge towards him to try to take it, you can cause him to bolt with it. The dog is going to do what is fun and if that means playing keep away from you he will do it. If he doesn't bring it back right away no big deal, just don't unintentionally make it fun for him. Your goal is to make the toy+you fun and the toy itself is boring. When that happens he will want to bring it to you and no command to return it is necessary. Let him win it and run from him and if he chases when he gets to you praise and if you can do it without lunging at him grab the tug and start the game again. This is one of the few times you will want to encourage the dog to jump on you and slam you with the toy. If you look at that video at the 2 min mark Pi slams him with it to get him to keep going. That is what you are going for and it happens by moving away not toward. Most dogs are hard wired playwise to give chase when you run away and to run away when you give chase. Try to make that work with you and not against you.

It is good to find a ringsport trainer to help you with issues like that even if you never want to do ringsports. The people who go for podium slots know their stuff. Especially when it comes to environmental and nerve issues. They have to train dogs to perform despite distractions from other dogs, people, giant blow up floats, and even gunfire. It is a lifestyle in and of itself if you get super serious about it, and on the flip side there are certain things people who are aiming for podium spots do to get better performances out of their dogs that I don't necessarily want to do with my own dogs, such as crating whenever they aren't training or going to the bathroom etc. On top of that in many cases the dogs they consider best suited for ringsports would be very very hard to live with in casual everyday life.

For example I've seen a Belgian Malinois considered to be a "world class" ringsport contender and he came out to train so jacked up and motivated he looked like he was ready to explode at any given moment, but was performing everything perfectly. He was very vocal panting loudly in a hyperventilating sort of way and super excited to the point that it made me nervous just being around him. Imagine a hyper high drive dog and then imagine if you got that dog high on meth. That was this dog. He was acting like that physical activity was the best thing in the world and the only thing he was going to get to do all week. That dog would be nightmare to live with if he didn't have a good trainer and an outlet for that drive.


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## selzer

The correction is not to correct him for being scared but to get him out of his current state. Like the movies where they slap a woman who is screaming her head off -- I know that is terrible. But what you would be doing is popping the prong and moving on. You are just not letting him continue in a very unhappy bad place. 

Each time it happens, you haven't managed to manage him, what that means is that you need to recognize those things that make him react and then either adjust where you are moving to keep whatever it is at a safe distance, or give him a command like SIT and then WATCH, so instead of waiting for him to react to a situation, you are telling him what YOU want him to do. Or you can change his direction, back up and call and have him sit in front of you waiting for the tid bit while what is happening behind him goes away. 

But if he reaches the point of lunging and barking at whatever, giving him a pop and moving him away from it, isn't punishing him for being afraid, it is moving him out of the state that he is in as quickly as possible, so that it doesn't escalate further.

Packen, what are you saying 100 pages of drivel? Whatever.


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## Baillif

You ideally never want to reach the point where you have to pop him with the prong because you also run a risk of superstitious associations in a fear state like that. You want him to be absolutely clear he is being pronged for disobeying a command that will snap him out of that state or not allow that state to continue. You have to train that command pretty heavily first before you can even try this effectively, and it is best done way before your dog loses his mind otherwise the dog just won't learn in that high fear state. 

For example he can't fixate on the other dog or person that is causing the fear if he is looking at you when you tell him to look. This avoids the fear and aggression escalation. But you have to have had this trained before you can do this otherwise if you are pronging him for going to that state you run the risk of making his apprehension around other dogs or strangers increase. In this scenario your dog sees other dog or person or whatever and starts to get apprehensive he goes into a fear state, hes completely fixated on them and then loses his ****, next thing you know hes getting prong pain on the neck for not following a command he wasn't fully trained on and probably didn't even hear and does the simple and incorrect math strange people and dogs=pain, and he works even harder next time to drive them off, or in some cases drops the warning behaviors he thinks he was being pronged for and jumps straight to the bite.

It can be a complicated thing. Some dogs respond well to it some don't


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## lalachka

So much I missed lol. This is what happens when I work, I have to stop that lolol

I will reply to everyone later. 

Packen, sure, I will pm you. I can't imagine why you wouldn't check out a thread with such an intriguing subject all this time either lolol. But I'm glad you finally did. 

It will be a project, I have to have my daughter come out for a few days with me and tape it. I can't tape when he's bugging out))))) I'm trying to do stuff though wrong stuff I'm sure. 


But I'm very interested to get responses so I will def do it.


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> Speaking of that. I got Michael Ellis DVD on tugging and though I didn't finish watching it (I wanted to do what he taught in the first session before moving on) I can't get my boy that interested in tugging. He will tug a few times but that's it. Also, his bite is frontal. Any pointers?
> 
> And thank you for the board and train opinion, that's what I was asking.
> 
> I wish I was near them (Michael and Lindsay). You are?


I'm about 50 miles from the Michael Ellis school. I've only been there once, when Ed Frawley's son Jeff was here taping that Nosework DVD series with Andrew. Halo and I appear briefly in the foundation one, Keefer was in a teaser for one of the later DVDs in the series, but I'm not sure if he actually made it onto a DVD or not. 

Anyway, we were waiting around for our turn to tape, and Michael stopped, shook our hands, and introduced himself as he walked by. Lindsay was there the whole time, and offered us a beer from the fridge.  But we worked a lot with Michael's partner Lisa Maze, and when Halo was with her, she got to train with some students of the school, as well as at the Hayward Police Department obstacle course when Lisa and Andrew brought her along while they did some K9 training with the department. 

A lot of board and train facilities are like a boarding kennel, a larger place, with staff. I would never hand over my dog at a place like that! But with Lisa, we knew what her training techniques were because we'd already been working with her for a few weeks by then. And boarded dogs lived in their home as part of their pack, and got taken all over the place with them. At most of our training sessions, which were outdoors at various parks, she always had several boarders with her, so they were being exposed to lots of new environments and lots of other dogs, where they were expected to behave!

I'm not the one to ask about getting a dog interested in tugging, since I had difficulty myself! I was thrilled that Andrew had worked with her and got her to tug like a maniac. I guess some things I'd suggest though is to try different kinds of toys, and make sure the tug moves, like prey would. Mine were not interested in firehose tugs because they're too hard, so I got stuffed suede tugs, which they liked much better. Braided fleece is good, although not as durable. For dogs that love balls, a ball on a rope will sometimes do the trick. You can also tease him with a toy and then put it away without letting him have it, to build his desire for it.


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## Baillif

Definitely good suggestions. It is generally good to start soft and work your way up. The toy giving in as he crushes it with his teeth encourages him to keep at it. It is especially important when you are learning to react to his fighting against you. You want to encourage his fighting harder for it by acting weak when he does so. So for example when my pup shakes the tug I will let go with one hand and if he continues I will feign being thrown off balance before letting go. Sometimes I will even let him pull me to the ground and I'll roll around like an idiot. His reaction will usually be to jump on top of me with the toy in his mouth to rub his victory in. I've heard of this backfiring though with someone. The dog went into full on lassie mode out of concern when her owner fell over and it took a while to get her back on the tug. Mine just presses the attack...go figure.

I had to special order stuffed suade tugs because no pet stores around here sell that kind of stuff, but fleece ropes is a good starting point.

Learning proper movement with the tug is an artform in and of itself. That video should help with that though.


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> i also can't believe that all you guys after having all these dogs and obviously all this experience still go to classes with every new dog. do you do it for the other dogs' company? or what is it?


For me, there are a lot of reasons. Not the least is that when I'm in a class, I have a schedule - this week we work on these things, so every day I know what my homework is. Since when I go back next week I want to be able to show improvement, I make sure I do at least SOME work on it every day. Without a class, and the structure it provides, it's much easier to be too busy, or too tired, or too whatever to bother taking the time to train today. I've also discovered over the years that I'm a teensy bit competitive.  Since I start working with a new puppy as soon as it bring it home, it's had several weeks of training before we even start puppy class. Consequently, I tend to be the overachiever, the one whose puppy makes everyone else look like slackers, lol. And I LIKE that! :wild: 

I also enjoy training, and challenging my dog and myself to see what we can achieve together. If we master the exercises for the week in the first day or two at home, I start thinking of ways I can make it more difficult, how I can take it to the next step. That's why in one of Halo's classes when the trainer took everyone outside one day to work around this big fountain they had, she told everyone to put their dog in a sit and go to the end of the leash, "if you can", and then she turned to me and said, for Halo, drop the leash and go to the top of those stairs over there. :rofl: (In her previous class she was referred to as the "stay star" by another person in the class - she was 8 or 9 months old at the time, the youngest by far, but her stay was rock solid.)



lalachka said:


> also, how come you go to new classes, you never found a trainer that you love and that you go to ALL THE TIME?


If I use a private trainer with my next dog I'd use Lisa Maze again for sure. But for basic obedience I don't need a private trainer, so I take classes. With Halo I deliberately went to several different facilities in order to expose her to new environments each time. Sirius Puppy 1 was with Nicole in Berkeley, Sirius Puppy 2 was with Nicole in Oakland, the CGC Prep Class was at ARF in Walnut Creek with someone whose name I don't recall, Family Dog 2 was at the Marin Humane Society with Suzie, Basic Manners 2 was back at ARF with Sara. It may sound weird to jump around so much, but it was all about challenging my dog, and not letting her be too comfortable.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I ordered my suede tugs online too, I got them here: Fullgripgear | Tugs & Bite Builders


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## lalachka

Posted by Baillif "It's not too much too soon, it is just a learning process for you and your dog. He is more than old enough to handle training. You just need to learn how he ticks and how to motivate him to get the behaviors you want. When you first start out it is all about motivation. Find out what he wants and likes, and use access to those things to get what you want out of him. You do sound a little paranoid about the dog getting hurt though. "


I can't help worrying for him, I realize that he's roughly built and that I'm probably going overboard but I can't control it. 

Yes, that's where I'm at, motivation. I've tried teaching a few things but mainly i'm working on trying to be fun for him. It's not easy, more on this later. 

What I meant when I said 'too much too soon' was my expectations. I always catch myself expecting too much. Like I just started working on 'come' and the same day I started he didn't come 3 times out of 10 and I caught myself getting annoyed and wondering whether I'm doing it right. 



Posted by Baillif "With training there are little nuanced things you have to learn that can spell out the difference between a dog bringing it to you vs running past you or running from you and doing a victory lap with it. For example, if you are finding yourself chasing your dog to try to get it or when hes right about to come to you with it you bend over or lunge towards him to try to take it, you can cause him to bolt with it. The dog is going to do what is fun and if that means playing keep away from you he will do it. If he doesn't bring it back right away no big deal, just don't unintentionally make it fun for him. Your goal is to make the toy+you fun and the toy itself is boring. When that happens he will want to bring it to you and no command to return it is necessary. Let him win it and run from him and if he chases when he gets to you praise and if you can do it without lunging at him grab the tug and start the game again. This is one of the few times you will want to encourage the dog to jump on you and slam you with the toy. If you look at that video at the 2 min mark Pi slams him with it to get him to keep going. That is what you are going for and it happens by moving away not toward. Most dogs are hard wired playwise to give chase when you run away and to run away when you give chase. Try to make that work with you and not against you."


Lol @Victory lap))))

I do try to use the fact that he chases when I back away and vice versa. Overall, though, I'm finding it hard to make myself fun for long periods of time. As far as the toys, most of the time he's perfectly happy trying to bury them. There are tunnels he dug everywhere and he runs to one of them with the toy and tries hiding it. 

I do get him excited for the most part but nowhere near Michael Ellis. Omg, watching his tug DVD depressed me. His dog is soooo focused on him. Even when they're not playing, he was just talking for like 5 mins and his dog layed there the entire time stating at him. He didnt move his head once. How do you achieve that??? Also, what I'm amazed by is when he tugs and tells his dog to OUT his dog's butt doesn't touch the ground, he sits in a squat staring at him waiting until he can tug again. This kind of engagement is amazing, I can't find enough words to describe it. 

I can't picture my dog ever being motivated like that. 



Posted by Baillif "It is good to find a ringsport trainer to help you with issues like that even if you never want to do ringsports. The people who go for podium slots know their stuff. Especially when it comes to environmental and nerve issues. They have to train dogs to perform despite distractions from other dogs, people, giant blow up floats, and even gunfire. It is a lifestyle in and of itself if you get super serious about it, and on the flip side there are certain things people who are aiming for podium spots do to get better performances out of their dogs that I don't necessarily want to do with my own dogs, such as crating whenever they aren't training or going to the bathroom etc. On top of that in many cases the dogs they consider best suited for ringsports would be very very hard to live with in casual everyday life." 


I'd love to. How? I emailed the closest schutzhund club, no reply. My dog doesn't have papers, does that matter?


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## lalachka

Posted by Selzer "The correction is not to correct him for being scared but to get him out of his current state. Like the movies where they slap a woman who is screaming her head off -- I know that is terrible. But what you would be doing is popping the prong and moving on. You are just not letting him continue in a very unhappy bad place. "


Just as Baillif said, isn't that associating the bad things with corrections? So all he will learn is that everytime he sees people (and barks but I'm going to assume he can't control that, he's scared) he gets a correction. So on top of him being scared of people he's now also anticipating a correction and it'd seem like I'm just adding to his anxiety. 



Posted by Selzer "Each time it happens, you haven't managed to manage him, what that means is that you need to recognize those things that make him react and then either adjust where you are moving to keep whatever it is at a safe distance, or give him a command like SIT and then WATCH, so instead of waiting for him to react to a situation, you are telling him what YOU want him to do. Or you can change his direction, back up and call and have him sit in front of you waiting for the tid bit while what is happening behind him goes away. "

You're right about managing, though I try noticing before and preparing I don't always succeed. 


Posted by Selzer "Packen, what are you saying 100 pages of drivel? Whatever."


I think he meant my stuff )))))


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## Baillif

It is good to get to see a bunch of different trainers in action too. Dog training is one of those things that is very wide open and constantly evolving and there are a ton of different techniques and tools out there. Every so often you get a surprise and you run into a trainer that will turn your world upside down.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> Posted by Selzer "The correction is not to correct him for being scared but to get him out of his current state. Like the movies where they slap a woman who is screaming her head off -- I know that is terrible. But what you would be doing is popping the prong and moving on. You are just not letting him continue in a very unhappy bad place. "
> 
> 
> *Just as Baillif said, isn't that associating the bad things with corrections? So all he will learn is that everytime he sees people (and barks but I'm going to assume he can't control that, he's scared) he gets a correction. *So on top of him being scared of people he's now also anticipating a correction and it'd seem like I'm just adding to his anxiety.
> 
> 
> 
> Posted by Selzer "Each time it happens, you haven't managed to manage him, what that means is that you need to recognize those things that make him react and then either adjust where you are moving to keep whatever it is at a safe distance, or give him a command like SIT and then WATCH, so instead of waiting for him to react to a situation, you are telling him what YOU want him to do. Or you can change his direction, back up and call and have him sit in front of you waiting for the tid bit while what is happening behind him goes away. "
> 
> You're right about managing, though I try noticing before and preparing I don't always succeed.
> 
> 
> Posted by Selzer "Packen, what are you saying 100 pages of drivel? Whatever."
> 
> 
> I think he meant my stuff )))))


Well, nothing in my opinion is worse than allowing a dog to bark and lunge visciously at another dog or person. I would be more worried about the dog learning not to bark and lunge and go directly to biting. But, I am not suggesting abusing the dog, I am suggesting giving a leash correction, cut that out!, and moving the dog away, so the dog does not remain in this state and escalate. Every time the dog remains in this state until whatever he is aggressing toward moves out of his path, he is learning how to get things to go away. And as you are not taking charge of the situation, he will not have any confidence in you. A quick pop, cut that out, as you move onward (but not closer to the victim), and the dog does not have the opportunity to ramp up his aggressive moment, and he learns that you have the power to move him away from bad stuff, and maybe badd stuff isn't so bad afterall. 

The trick is NOT to be ramped up when you are dealing with it. If your tension increases when you see that there are people coming into the park, the dog notices that tension. So instead of Yanking on the dog and yelling at the dog, you are giving a quick pop and saying in an ordinary tone, Cut that out, and moving on, that suggests to your dog, that you are aware of what is threatening him, and you aren't fussed -- not in those terms, but that you are in charge of the situation. He doesn't have to be.


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## Baillif

He starts em very early. When they are little puppies he has those guys doing engagement for food. It is covered in the training dogs with food dvd, but basically what happens is he takes those little guys to new places a lot and then feeds them high valued treats simply for paying attention to him and following him around as he walks backwards luring them. He will do this in such a way to try to keep the dog from diverting attention elsewhere, and if the dog does divert attention he either makes himself more interesting by running from the puppy or by increasing the rate at which he feeds while luring. He will then increase the length of the session gradually so that the dog as it gets older is getting used to focused attention on him for longer and longer periods of time. He also feeds them treats around anything that makes them nervous to develop positive associations and head off any reactivity issues that might pop up later.

So while people are taking puppies to puppy classes and letting them play with other dogs his approach would be to get those puppies to engage with him using food or play in the presence of those other dogs, but not actually play with those other dogs, or in the presence of strange people and objects but not actually interacting with them necessarily. He trains the dogs in this way to see other people and dogs as furniture and to see him as the most interesting thing in the world, the source of food and fun. He doesn't feed his pups normally from bowls either. Usually the puppies get all their food throughout the day as they train. He's hand feeding during training so there is no question about where their food comes or what they have to do to access it. Later as they get older the dogs will generally be transitioned over to a tug or play reward and food rewards become less and less important, although I guess that depends on whether the dog is primarily food or play motivated. To keep them from learning bad habits they would end up being crated in a quiet place when he isn't playing with them or training them.


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## Baillif

I've got nothing against using prong collars or e collars or leash pops where appropriate, don't get me wrong. They have their place in dog training for sure. I just think it is a method best used by someone that can read their dog and is well versed in how to train a look command or whatever else they decide to use while under distraction. My personal go to tool to stop that kind of re activity is to only feed them when they are acting appropriately around strange dogs or people at progressively closer distances and if they get reactive they don't eat that day, but every time I suggest it I get called a monster.


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## selzer

My dogs don't have to sing for their supper. I just feed them at whatever time of the day I feed them. Doesn't matter. The only time I withold food is if there is a digestive issue going. I do not use kibble to train. I do not hand feed. I do not mess with their food. I can. I just don't. 

I have no problem with giving treats to dogs for behaviors I want. But I don't always keep treats on me. So I always praise whenever I treat, and soon, I am only using praise to let a dog know it did right. 

Mostly my training is all voice. I have a prong somewhere, but I don't use prong collars or e-collars. But, it is much better in my opinion that someone use a collar to give them an edge, then to fight with a dog. Leaders do not fight with those they lead. It makes the underlings feel uncertain, precarious -- not a safe place to be. 

When dogs feel that you are in charge of the situation, they are much less likely to protect themselves against perceived threats. Some dogs' nerves are so weak, that they cannot feel at peace even with a confident leader. And those dogs are truly dangerous, and certainly not in a comfortable place. But I think a lot more dogs would be perfectly willing to drop the ball and let you pick it up.


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## Baillif

And there's definitely more truth to that than most people realize. I live in a neighborhood where there are lots of dogs that are off leash and wander some of them are very yippy and territorial, and walking a puppy in a situation like that required that I physically had to impose on other dogs to keep them away from him when we were on walks. He was fearful of the walk in the neighborhood until seeing me defend him and after that it melted away in a day or two. The puppies see it and respect it. Once they realize you will back them up sometimes that is all that is required to stop the fearful reactivity, if that is even what the problem is. We need to see a video to know for sure. Sometimes they can lunge and bark at dogs they just want to meet and play with, and it can be misinterpreted.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> It is good to get to see a bunch of different trainers in action too. Dog training is one of those things that is very wide open and constantly evolving and there are a ton of different techniques and tools out there. Every so often you get a surprise and you run into a trainer that will turn your world upside down.


Lol I hope I do. I like people that are masters at what they do, no matter what it is. I enjoy watching them work. 

I'd love it if I ever met a trainer who's that good.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Definitely good suggestions. It is generally good to start soft and work your way up. The toy giving in as he crushes it with his teeth encourages him to keep at it. It is especially important when you are learning to react to his fighting against you. You want to encourage his fighting harder for it by acting weak when he does so. So for example when my pup shakes the tug I will let go with one hand and if he continues I will feign being thrown off balance before letting go. Sometimes I will even let him pull me to the ground and I'll roll around like an idiot. His reaction will usually be to jump on top of me with the toy in his mouth to rub his victory in. I've heard of this backfiring though with someone. The dog went into full on lassie mode out of concern when her owner fell over and it took a while to get her back on the tug. Mine just presses the attack...go figure.
> 
> I had to special order stuffed suade tugs because no pet stores around here sell that kind of stuff, but fleece ropes is a good starting point.
> 
> Learning proper movement with the tug is an artform in and of itself. That video should help with that though.


Thank you, I read this at the park and tried it out right there and then))))) it was fun, looking forward to more (the dropping on the ground and playing like he's winning). 

Cassidy's mom, you're very lucky)))) i'd love to train with him. 

Thank you for the suggestions, we are not using the ball on the string yet (again Michael Ellis, he says that comes later because the pups first need to learn where to bite the tug) but I bought a few tugs from leerburg.

ETA and thank you for the tease with the tug suggestion. I'm getting so much good stuff here!!


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## lalachka

Cassidy's Mom said:


> For me, there are a lot of reasons. Not the least is that when I'm in a class, I have a schedule - this week we work on these things, so every day I know what my homework is. Since when I go back next week I want to be able to show improvement, I make sure I do at least SOME work on it every day. Without a class, and the structure it provides, it's much easier to be too busy, or too tired, or too whatever to bother taking the time to train today. I've also discovered over the years that I'm a teensy bit competitive.  Since I start working with a new puppy as soon as it bring it home, it's had several weeks of training before we even start puppy class. Consequently, I tend to be the overachiever, the one whose puppy makes everyone else look like slackers, lol. And I LIKE that! :wild:
> 
> I also enjoy training, and challenging my dog and myself to see what we can achieve together. If we master the exercises for the week in the first day or two at home, I start thinking of ways I can make it more difficult, how I can take it to the next step. That's why in one of Halo's classes when the trainer took everyone outside one day to work around this big fountain they had, she told everyone to put their dog in a sit and go to the end of the leash, "if you can", and then she turned to me and said, for Halo, drop the leash and go to the top of those stairs over there. :rofl: (In her previous class she was referred to as the "stay star" by another person in the class - she was 8 or 9 months old at the time, the youngest by far, but her stay was rock solid.)
> 
> 
> 
> If I use a private trainer with my next dog I'd use Lisa Maze again for sure. But for basic obedience I don't need a private trainer, so I take classes. With Halo I deliberately went to several different facilities in order to expose her to new environments each time. Sirius Puppy 1 was with Nicole in Berkeley, Sirius Puppy 2 was with Nicole in Oakland, the CGC Prep Class was at ARF in Walnut Creek with someone whose name I don't recall, Family Dog 2 was at the Marin Humane Society with Suzie, Basic Manners 2 was back at ARF with Sara. It may sound weird to jump around so much, but it was all about challenging my dog, and not letting her be too comfortable.


Ohh that sounds interesting, the structure. I didn't think of that. I do find myself wondering what I should be teaching. It's nice to just do what you're told and not make decisions sometimes )))))

I don't know if I will be an overachiever like you, though it sounds like a challenge, I like them. Maybe. That would be fun. 

I wasn't asking why you didn't find a private trainer, I meant why did you not find a group trainer you liked? Like why do you keep trying out new ones? I'd think in all these years you'd find a trainer you like and use them for all classes and private sessions (if you need them). That's my goal, anyway. To end up with 1 trainer that knows all about us and that we keep going back to.


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## lalachka

On Michael Ellis and how he engages his dogs. 

I asked Cindy this question and she said these are 2 different things. She didn't explain why though. 

If his dogs are this focused on him then how do they function without him? It seems like he's going out of his way to make sure his dogs have nothing but him in their lives. How do they not develop the most severe SA cases?

I don't have nearly the engagement he does and my dog has SA. I don't know how bad it's considered to be but he's hysterical for about a minute when he sees me. 

What am I missing? If he's the center of their lives then how do they deal with him not being there?


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## Cassidy's Mom

More on creating a motivational toy, from Susan Garrett, a top agility competitor: How to Create a Motivating Toy


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## lalachka

Cassidy's Mom said:


> More on creating a motivational toy, from Susan Garrett, a top agility competitor: How to Create a Motivating Toy


I love her suggestions, thank you))))))
will try them after work. But I have 3 tugs  do I pick one? Or do this with all 3?


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## lalachka

I wanted to add that I don't let him bark and lunge at people, I make a uturn and take him away, I just don't correct him for it. I pop on the leash a little to get his attention and leave. But he's not punished for it, that's what I meant. I'm assuming he's doing it out of fear so I don't punish him. 

In any case, I def don't stand there and let him scare people. The times it happened before he was off leash and I tried my best to get him away and leashed him right after 


I understand how bad it looks and that no one should have to go through it. 

And a little update, I think I have the trainer I will go with. If she doesn't work out I have many others I spoke with. 

She doesn't have any aggression classes soon (a few months away) so I'm doing a private session(s) for aggression and taking the next whatever class she has available. And then will take the aggression class in a few months.


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## Baillif

Focused attention and engagement isn't total dependence emotionally and psychologically. It isn't the same as separation anxiety that has a root in a dogs pack drive, and instinct to try to stay with the pack. A dog paying attention to you isn't the same as a dog being anxious if you start to create some distance between you or leave the room, so training attention doesn't lead to increased SA. He also crates his dogs in quiet places when he isn't training so the dog has to deal with him not being around. He would also put a cue on focused attention. For example whenever he is going to start a session he would say something like "Ready" and when he ends a session "All done" so that the dog knows when to be on and when to take it easy and do his own thing.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Focused attention and engagement isn't total dependence emotionally and psychologically. It isn't the same as separation anxiety that has a root in a dogs pack drive, and instinct to try to stay with the pack. A dog paying attention to you isn't the same as a dog being anxious if you start to create some distance between you or leave the room, so training attention doesn't lead to increased SA. He also crates his dogs in quiet places when he isn't training so the dog has to deal with him not being around. He would also put a cue on focused attention. For example whenever he is going to start a session he would say something like "Ready" and when he ends a session "All done" so that the dog knows when to be on and when to take it easy and do his own thing.


thank you, now i get it )))))

how do you know how he does this? you have a dog like that too? i was amazed when i saw his dog stare at him for 20 mins. also, i don't remember if i said this already, but when he plays tug and tells his dog to OUT his dog doesn't sit all the way, his butt is above ground in anticipation.

amazing


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> I wasn't asking why you didn't find a private trainer, I meant why did you not find a group trainer you liked? Like why do you keep trying out new ones? I'd think in all these years you'd find a trainer you like and use them for all classes and private sessions (if you need them). That's my goal, anyway. To end up with 1 trainer that knows all about us and that we keep going back to.


I did answer that part, but maybe it wasn't that clear - with Halo I wanted to continually challenge her, and by having each of her first 4 classes at 4 different facilities she was being tossed into a completely new environment that she'd never seen before with each new class. That creates a lot more distractions that getting comfortable going to the same place over and over again for months. 

I wanted her to be able to focus and engage with me no matter where we are or what's going on, and I thought that might be a good part of her foundation training, in addition to training her in a variety of public places when working on our homework. It's all about the challenge!


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## lalachka

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I did answer that part, but maybe it wasn't that clear - with Halo I wanted to continually challenge her, and by having each of her first 4 classes at 4 different facilities she was being tossed into a completely new environment that she'd never seen before with each new class. That creates a lot more distractions that getting comfortable going to the same place over and over again for months.
> 
> I wanted her to be able to focus and engage with me no matter where we are or what's going on, and I thought that might be a good part of her foundation training, in addition to training her in a variety of public places when working on our homework. It's all about the challenge!


Ohh, so it's about different facilities, not different trainers? I was asking because I was wondering why you guys after all these years didn't just stick with one trainer. I was afraid that it's because it's hard to find a good one. 

I don't want to have to go through the picking out again, I'm hoping I just like the one I find now and go to her for everything. 


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## Baillif

The dog I am currently training for ringsports is learning that kind of focused attention but is a little older than 6 months now and not capable of that level of attention you see Pi giving for the length of time Pi will give it. Again I know how he does a lot of what he does because I train with people who trained with him using the same techniques he taught them. 

Other thing you have to keep in mind is Pi is an exceptional genetic specimen of belgian malinois. Extremely high drives naturally, and in the hands of Michael who is a world champion in the sport who knows how to harness it, you are basically looking at what is analogous to a hall of fame professional athlete in the hands of a world class coach in the dog world. You have to work a dog up to focused attention for long lengths of time because depending on the ringsport it might require 40 minutes or more of focused attention to make it through all the events.

So while yes my dog is nice he's a german shepherd/belgian mal mix (the belgian mal side of him is related to dogs from his kennels)the extreme drives aren't really there yet and might not ever be there to the level it takes to the podium in ringsports. I'll take him as far as my talent and abilities will allow. At some point I will probably get a dog from one of those championship lines, but I'm still learning but at this pointa dog like Pi would be wasted on me. Now Zebu (my dog) is already showing a lot of promise I can recall him away from chasing a cat or squirrel or keep his attention on training while hes being barked at viciously by dogs behind fences that want to kill him, and at 6 months I consider it a nice stepping stone but he has quite a ways to go.

When they talk about "high drive" dogs in working dogs what they are more or less referring to is the intact survival instincts of the dog. These include the prey drive, and food drive, as well as defensive drives that trainers can tap into to train and shape behaviors. They are a little more wild animal than a lot of dogs in that they will work way harder to access rewards be it food or toy in a way that reflects how hard they would work to survive in the wild if left to their own devices. If left to get bored or not stimulated properly they will go out of their way to destroy the house for their own personal entertainment.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> The dog I am currently training for ringsports is learning that kind of focused attention but is a little older than 6 months now and not capable of that level of attention you see Pi giving for the length of time Pi will give it. Again I know how he does a lot of what he does because I train with people who trained with him using the same techniques he taught them.
> 
> Other thing you have to keep in mind is Pi is an exceptional genetic specimen of belgian malinois. Extremely high drives naturally, and in the hands of Michael who is a world champion in the sport who knows how to harness it, you are basically looking at what is analogous to a hall of fame professional athlete in the hands of a world class coach in the dog world. You have to work a dog up to focused attention for long lengths of time because depending on the ringsport it might require 40 minutes or more of focused attention to make it through all the events.
> 
> So while yes my dog is nice he's a german shepherd/belgian mal mix (the belgian mal side of him is related to dogs from his kennels)the extreme drives aren't really there yet and might not ever be there to the level it takes to the podium in ringsports. I'll take him as far as my talent and abilities will allow. At some point I will probably get a dog from one of those championship lines, but I'm still learning but at this pointa dog like Pi would be wasted on me. Now Zebu (my dog) is already showing a lot of promise I can recall him away from chasing a cat or squirrel or keep his attention on training while hes being barked at viciously by dogs behind fences that want to kill him, and at 6 months I consider it a nice stepping stone but he has quite a ways to go.
> 
> When they talk about "high drive" dogs in working dogs what they are more or less referring to is the intact survival instincts of the dog. These include the prey drive, and food drive, as well as defensive drives that trainers can tap into to train and shape behaviors. They are a little more wild animal than a lot of dogs in that they will work way harder to access rewards be it food or toy in a way that reflects how hard they would work to survive in the wild if left to their own devices. If left to get bored or not stimulated properly they will go out of their way to destroy the house for their own personal entertainment.


why did you get a cross? was there a reason or it just happened?

yep, having a recall like that at 6 months in my eyes is also amazing. and i udnerstand what you mean that getting a dog like Pi would be a waste at this time. when do you think you will be ready?

how much are dogs like his? i didn't know that he bred.

ETA do you have any videos?

Another ETA lol sorry for being a smart mouth about giving Michael Ellis credit for a scenario you took out from his fear videos, i didn't realize that you already mention him all the time.


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## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> Ohh, so it's about different facilities, not different trainers? I was asking because I was wondering why you guys after all these years didn't just stick with one trainer. I was afraid that it's because it's hard to find a good one.


That was definitely part of it. Another part was what place had a class I was interested in at a convenient day and time, without too much of a delay between classes. Even if I'd stayed at one place, it wouldn't necessarily been the same trainer each time anyway. There's the inevitable turnover, and also different people may specialize in different types of classes. As long as it's a facility I like, with a training philosophy that's compatible with mine, I'm not that picky about who is actually teaching a particular class. Class is only one hour a week - the constant is ME, since I'm doing the actual training. 

Sometimes I use a different command than the trainer uses, sometimes the way I teach something is a little different, so I just do it my way, regardless of what everyone else is doing. It's never been a problem, since I'm able to demonstrate that the method I'm using is working well. Usually I don't get a whole lot of attention from the instructor and assistant/s because I obviously have things under control and don't really need assistance. I'll get a "nice job with Halo" called across the room, or sometimes I'll be pointed out as an example ("everybody - watch what Debbie is doing with Halo", that kind of thing). They usually give more time to the people who are struggling and need help. 



lalachka said:


> how much are dogs like his? i didn't know that he bred.


Yep, I mentioned his kennel earlier: Loups du Soleil Working Malinois

This is his breeding partner, who we used as a private trainer: Lisa Maze | Loups du Soleil

Current litter has 15 puppies, yikes! QQ - Pi x Cappy | Loups du Soleil

What I didn't know until I saw it on the website just now is that Michael's dog Pi is sired by Feist, Lisa's dog. I *LOVE* Feist! He's around 12 years old, I think, and still tugs like a beast. He'll go up to anyone and shove his tug at them to play with him, or poke them with a ball until they throw it for him, lol. I don't know what they charge for their puppies. 

This is a picture I took at one of our training sessions with Lisa - she's kinda famous for photo ops during training. 










The GSDs on either end of the table top were boarders, sandwiched between them is a mal that she doesn't own anymore, then Halo and Keefer.

On the bench is Feist with her other dogs Gooey and Cosmo. I'm not sure what her record is for the number of dog photographed on that picnic table at the same time, but it was more than this!


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## lalachka

Lolol yeah she positioned them all nicely. Beautiful dogs, beautiful scenery. 

I checked out that kennel after you mentioned it, I just didnt know Michael had a connection to it. 

Do you know the ballpark? Or you have no idea at all?

I will probably never get a mal, especially a mal with drives like that, I was just curious. 

I'm meeting the trainer on Saturday for a private session, if she tells me she will take him for class then I'm signing up for 3 classes (lol, now I want all these classes, it only took a push from you guys). Hopefully she's the one. 

I was also wondering whether I can use my own commands, I mostly use commands in Russian and would like to keep it that way. I was hoping trainers don't mind that kind of stuff. 



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## Baillif

You wanna know how small the dog training world really is at that level? The dog I was mentioning before that was world class drive that seemed ready to explode is owned by a partner and employee of the trainer I use who has several Michael Ellis dogs himself and a few from Ot Vitosha. That dogs name is Repo and is part of the reason the Pi X Cappy breeding was repeated in this last QQ litter was because of trying to get another Repo, who was a pup from their first breeding. It was one of those cases where a puppy that was seen as ok but not great potential at a young age came of age and showed off how special he was and ended up in the hands of a fairly new ringsport trainer and not trained by Michael himself (I'm not bashing that trainer that owns him at all hes def better than me.)

I don't know what Michael charges but Ot Vitosha puppies are 2000 dollar pups, so I'm guessing Michael sells them for roughly that much.

Every single one of those 15 puppies was probably spoken for before they were 3 weeks old.

Zebu was originally never intended for sport work. I was just going to raise him to be a running buddy. A high drive dog will push you out of that door when you aren't feeling motivated and will hold your furniture hostage should you fail to comply. I wanted a dog that was going to end up with a fairly short coat to be able to handle NC summers. I originally tried to find a purebred mal not really intending to get a shepherd because they tend to have longer coats and would overheat on runs, not to mention the propensity for hip issues. I couldn't find a litter for sale anywhere around here, but found a breeder fairly nearby who was doing mixes. They typically ended up looking more like Malinois in coat and usually have the Malinois good health from what he was telling me and I took his word for it as he bred working line GSD's Mals and mixes of the two for 15 years usually looking for higher drive dogs. I figured the GSD would take the edge off the Mal in him.

He was a bouncy little chainsaw at 7 weeks. Loved to bite loved to play fight and loved to make me bleed, and he was super smart. I started to see more mal in him attitude wise than GSD. He looks like a Mal, acts like a Mal, had a very bite first ask questions later attitude, and I started to realize that he needed more than those eventual runs he would be going on. So the training for the sport started very early. Instead of stopping the biting I embraced it and gave him outlets for it. I enjoy seeing him at his best showing off his power and strength and that wild streak he has in him. I liked the training method because they do things I want because they want to and not just because they have to. It brings out a confidence in them. He goes to this primal place deep inside of him when he hits a sleeve. It is something you have to experience. Dogs like that are lifestyle changers though. You have to give them attention and work with them and make sure they are getting the exercise and stimulation you need. You find yourself thinking what am I going to do with the dog today? Not just some days, but everyday. If you don't they will find a way to punish you and entertain themselves at your expense. If you do fulfill their needs you can sit on the couch with them and lounge around with them and they are great dogs, calmer, more balanced, and far less prone to being destructive. I'm way more active physically with him around so the benefit goes both ways. He's like an exercise coach with four legs.


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> I was also wondering whether I can use my own commands, I mostly use commands in Russian and would like to keep it that way. I was hoping trainers don't mind that kind of stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Might I ask why you use Russian commands? You don't think it may be complicating things unnecessarily?

BTW... all trainers are in fact individuals, and may do things differently from others. No one but that individual trainer can tell you what they expect, unless someone has experience with that particular trainer.

I know that if a new handler came to me wanting to use Russian commands, I would say no. If it was someone experienced that was using my class for pointers, socialization, and some new techniques, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't want to learn new commands just so some newbie can be "cool," and I'm probably going to handle the newbie's dog.

David Winners


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## lalachka

David Winners said:


> Might I ask why you use Russian commands? You don't think it may be complicating things unnecessarily?
> 
> BTW... all trainers are in fact individuals, and may do things differently from others. No one but that individual trainer can tell you what they expect, unless someone has experience with that particular trainer.
> 
> I know that if a new handler came to me wanting to use Russian commands, I would say no. If it was someone experienced that was using my class for pointers, socialization, and some new techniques, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't want to learn new commands just so some newbie can be "cool," and I'm probably going to handle the newbie's dog.
> 
> David Winners


Lol I'm not trying to be cool, when someone learns commands out of a language they don't speak is agree that they're trying to be cool. 

The reason I use mostly Russian is because I'm more comfortable speaking it. I have a slight accent in English and that coupled with the fact that I speak Russian every time I have the chance made me decide on using it. 

But why does the trainer have to learn my commands? I didn't realize they did, yeah if she has to learn them then it's a problem. But I see her only a few times and im with my dog every day. Changing what I'm comfortable also doesn't make sense. 

I have enough stuff to remember when I'm out with him lol why not make something a little more comfortable


ETA how am I complicating things? I thought dogs learned a sound and it didnt matter which words i use?

Also, my first trainer didnt mind.


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## lalachka

I already made such a huge adjustment to my lifestyle. My life revolves around my dog, I plan our outings like what I'm going to play with him, what I'm going to teach him. Every night I bring a bookbag stuffed with just his stuff (toys and treats), people make fun of me lovingly)))))
Before I got him i'd stay home for days if I didn't have to go to work. When we had the flood my job was closed for a week, I spent 10 days home, only left for the store twice. 

I'm the laziest person you know. My family and friends are amazed at what they see. It's only been 6 months, I don't know what will happen down the road but I'm hoping I will keep going this way. 


I think the dog world in general is pretty small. I'm amazed that all worth dogs are from the dogs that everyone knows. How small is that gene pool??? I'm still amazed that people can look at a dog's pedigree and know most dogs in it. 

So sport dogs must all be closely related)))))


ETA oops, sent by accident. Lol @ bouncy little chainsaw))))))
I didn't know that breeders breed mixes on purpose. I saw a cross a few times on YouTube and it looked like a gsd. 

I don't know if i'd ever go for a mal, even if I decide to eventually get into sports (can't see it happening but anything is possible), though I'm impressed by them my heart belongs to GSDs. 

But it's nice to know they don't have hip problems. What about other stuff? What diseases DO they have?




Baillif said:


> You wanna know how small the dog training world really is at that level? The dog I was mentioning before that was world class drive that seemed ready to explode is owned by a partner and employee of the trainer I use who has several Michael Ellis dogs himself and a few from Ot Vitosha. That dogs name is Repo and is part of the reason the Pi X Cappy breeding was repeated in this last QQ litter was because of trying to get another Repo, who was a pup from their first breeding. It was one of those cases where a puppy that was seen as ok but not great potential at a young age came of age and showed off how special he was and ended up in the hands of a fairly new ringsport trainer and not trained by Michael himself (I'm not bashing that trainer that owns him at all hes def better than me.)
> 
> I don't know what Michael charges but Ot Vitosha puppies are 2000 dollar pups, so I'm guessing Michael sells them for roughly that much.
> 
> Every single one of those 15 puppies was probably spoken for before they were 3 weeks old.
> 
> Zebu was originally never intended for sport work. I was just going to raise him to be a running buddy. A high drive dog will push you out of that door when you aren't feeling motivated and will hold your furniture hostage should you fail to comply. I wanted a dog that was going to end up with a fairly short coat to be able to handle NC summers. I originally tried to find a purebred mal not really intending to get a shepherd because they tend to have longer coats and would overheat on runs, not to mention the propensity for hip issues. I couldn't find a litter for sale anywhere around here, but found a breeder fairly nearby who was doing mixes. They typically ended up looking more like Malinois in coat and usually have the Malinois good health from what he was telling me and I took his word for it as he bred working line GSD's Mals and mixes of the two for 15 years usually looking for higher drive dogs. I figured the GSD would take the edge off the Mal in him.
> 
> He was a bouncy little chainsaw at 7 weeks. Loved to bite loved to play fight and loved to make me bleed, and he was super smart. I started to see more mal in him attitude wise than GSD. He looks like a Mal, acts like a Mal, had a very bite first ask questions later attitude, and I started to realize that he needed more than those eventual runs he would be going on. So the training for the sport started very early. Instead of stopping the biting I embraced it and gave him outlets for it. I enjoy seeing him at his best showing off his power and strength and that wild streak he has in him. I liked the training method because they do things I want because they want to and not just because they have to. It brings out a confidence in them. He goes to this primal place deep inside of him when he hits a sleeve. It is something you have to experience. Dogs like that are lifestyle changers though. You have to give them attention and work with them and make sure they are getting the exercise and stimulation you need. You find yourself thinking what am I going to do with the dog today? Not just some days, but everyday. If you don't they will find a way to punish you and entertain themselves at your expense. If you do fulfill their needs you can sit on the couch with them and lounge around with them and they are great dogs, calmer, more balanced, and far less prone to being destructive. I'm way more active physically with him around so the benefit goes both ways. He's like an exercise coach with four legs.


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## Baillif

They can get anything any other dog can get but typically as a pure breed it is way less prone to any diseases. They were bred as a poor mans working dog in belgium and as a result they are less prone to disease and genetic illness.

The pedigrees are followed a bit more closely in the sport, but in the case of Ot Vitosha or Michael Ellis dogs you can follow the lines on their websites because they keep up with their owners. If dogs title they want to hear about it. As far as belgian mals are concerned there are only a handful of breeders in the US that produce top dogs, there is more competition amongst the breeders in Europe.

You can do the sport with german shepherds. You would want a working line shepherd in that case. It might not look as pretty as the ones bred for show ring conformation, but it will be way higher drive, and more than likely more healthy and less prone to HD and stuff like that. It would probably be harder to find, cost you more, but they are out there. 

The one change I will make with my next dog will be to make sure the ring commands are in another language. Probably french because german commands often have too many cognates. French and german commands would be known by other ring trainers because they are very common in the sport. The reason behind this is I've seen the value of keeping his ring commands pure. Sit, down, stand in ring commands are asking for very specific motions, if I just in everyday life want my dog to lay down and relax on the couch for example I don't want to have him down in the way he would in the ring. Other people who are less knowledgeable about enforcing a command might try to give commands to the dog and not back them up and that can teach a dog it is ok to disobey the command in certain situations. I don't want that either. With the dog I have now some of his formal commands are already in German for those reasons. Down in the house which allows him to flop over on his side is different from his platz command which requires he go into a down elbows touching the ground first and then dropping the butt, or in the case of platzing from a sit he has to kick out his rear end first and then drop down elbows first. Reason for those commands being so strict in that way is that they need to perform all the motions while not breaking the plane with your leg.


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## lalachka

I'm lucky you came to this thread. 

I've been trying to teach my boy to down elbows first because that's what I saw on his video. 

I thought the reason for that is so that they go in a down from a stand, not a sit. No? 

Also, do you know what Michael uses for a SIT command? I can't make it out, it sounds like A-SI

Also, I understand the need to have diff commands for SIT for ring and home but why the need for a diff language?

I never understood the naming of kennels in a German way, using German for commands. So what that the dog was made in Germany originally. Is that the only reason?


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## Baillif

To get them to drop into a down elbows first you push the food into them diagonally down and into them. They'll drop into a bow and then put their butts down to follow. Outside of the ring it isn't necessary, but if you want to do it anyway you want to lure them into that position until they are doing it exactly how you want and then give a name to the command. Don't name it until you love it.

Ah See is pretty much how it is pronounced. Leerburg | Training Commands List of commands is here in 5 languages. Sometimes when you get an import dog they are already trained in basic commands in the language of their country of origin. Many of the dogs for ringsports come from European lines out of Belgium, France, and Germany. Many of the German Shepherd working lines that are popular in bitework and police work come from Eastern Europe hence the Czech and Hungarian commands.

I would use a different language just because it keeps the command pure. My girlfriend for example won't use a german command on the dog without really thinking about it and then fail to back it up if the dog doesn't comply once he is at that stage of his training. If this did happen the dog would learn that in certain circumstances he doesn't have to listen to a command, and we don't want this. Does it necessitate a different language? No, but it is an easy way to prevent others (and yourself) from unintentionally teaching your dog something you don't want. 

Training starts out motivationally under the Ellis system. He gets a reward if he does the command and this goes on for a while where he doesn't get adversives should he fail to follow the command. The worst thing that happens at that stage is he fails to get his reward for non compliance. For a high drive dog this is generally bad enough by itself. They really want that reward. After the command has been generalized though, he would get an adversive should he fail to comply with the command. When done properly adversives shouldn't happen often, but they do happen.

If you continue to watch and follow Ellis system videos keep in mind that many of the things they teach are meant for dogs going into ringsports. So there are certain techniques being taught that are specific to heading off other problems in training later down the line. They have to be able to switch from sit, down and stand from any position. The down from a sit just happens to involve a kickout into a stand and then a down because it keeps the dog from dropping forward into a down and having its shoulder break the plane with your leg when performing these actions at a heel. It is very militaristic drill looking when done right. This is partly because the military had a historically large role in forming that behavior. Dogs heel on the left because rifles are carried on the right shoulder.


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## lalachka

Baillif said "To get them to drop into a down elbows first you push the food into them diagonally down and into them. They'll drop into a bow and then put their butts down to follow. Outside of the ring it isn't necessary, but if you want to do it anyway you want to lure them into that position until they are doing it exactly how you want and then give a name to the command. Don't name it until you love it."

Lol I'm very far from naming it, I can't lure him correctly. And I saw Michael doing it in the video and still can't. I should do it as I'm watching the video. I'm probably forgetting something by the time I'm at the park. 

When I push into him he starts looking at me like asking what I'm trying to do. I'm obviously not doing it right. 

Yeah. I want to do it that way, I can't let a challenge go and settle lol. 

It's very helpful that you know Michael's methods inside and out and always know right away what I'm talking about and then don't mind explaining it in detail. I hope you stick around for a while. 


Posted by Baillif "Ah See is pretty much how it is pronounced. Leerburg | Training Commands (http://leerburg.com/commands.htm) List of commands is here in 5 languages. Sometimes when you get an import dog they are already trained in basic commands in the language of their country of origin. Many of the dogs for ringsports come from European lines out of Belgium, France, and Germany. Many of the German Shepherd working lines that are popular in bitework and police work come from Eastern Europe hence the Czech and Hungarian commands."

I don't know why that command stuck with me, it sounds so interesting. I will check out the website once there's service (I'm on the train). 


Posted by Baillif "I would use a different language just because it keeps the command pure. My girlfriend for example won't use a german command on the dog without really thinking about it and then fail to back it up if the dog doesn't comply once he is at that stage of his training. If this did happen the dog would learn that in certain circumstances he doesn't have to listen to a command, and we don't want this. Does it necessitate a different language? No, but it is an easy way to prevent others (and yourself) from unintentionally teaching your dog something you don't want. "

I think I understand. He's still sitting just in a different way. So if you were to use English then you'd have to come up with a word that doesn't necessarily mean SIT and would confuse yourself and always have to first think about it and almost translate it first. 


Posted by Baillif "Training starts out motivationally under the Ellis system. He gets a reward if he does the command and this goes on for a while where he doesn't get adversives should he fail to follow the command. The worst thing that happens at that stage is he fails to get his reward for non compliance. For a high drive dog this is generally bad enough by itself. They really want that reward. After the command has been generalized though, he would get an adversive should he fail to comply with the command. When done properly adversives shouldn't happen often, but they do happen."

How do you know when it's generalized? Like how do you know that this is the time when he knows what the command means? 

Here's why I am asking. For the past 6 months I've been making him sit while I open doors. I'm 99% sure he knows what he should be doing AT LEAST by the door. I know that because sometimes I don't say anything and just wait a few moments and look at him and he will sit. 
Other times I say SIT and he sits. And other times I say SIT and he doesn't, he's sniffing, looking at something or whatever. 

So if you ask me - he's being defiant. No? Maybe he still doesn't know anything except that if the door is not opening and I'm looking at him that means he should sit?

Do you see my dilemma? How do I know that he finally knows what a command means and doesn't just know that in a certain situation (not when he hears the word) he should do a certain thing. 


Posted by Baillif "If you continue to watch and follow Ellis system videos keep in mind that many of the things they teach are meant for dogs going into ringsports. So there are certain techniques being taught that are specific to heading off other problems in training later down the line. They have to be able to switch from sit, down and stand from any position. The down from a sit just happens to involve a kickout into a stand and then a down because it keeps the dog from dropping forward into a down and having its shoulder break the plane with your leg when performing these actions at a heel. It is very militaristic drill looking when done right."

Yes, i'd like to keep going using his videos. I plan to buy some more. I will still get trainer help with problems I'm having but I will continue to follow his systems. I saw his dogs and that's all I need to know about his level of expertise and that's enough for me to take anything he says and not argue about it. 


Also, he does explain that in his videos. For example, he did explain why the down has to be that way and not from a sit and I decided that i'd like to teach my dog to do it that way. 

However, I think I might've misunderstood him. I thought the reason for doing it this way was that the dog then knows the DOWN command separate from SIT. But now reading what you said it sounds like the reason is that if he dropped butt first then after a sequence of commands he ends up shifting himself and crossing some line (yes? What's a plane?)


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## Baillif

I think your issue stems at engagement. Which dvds did you get? You might have gotten them out of order. I think the power of training dogs with food one comes first or there is a marker training video that might come first. 

You might want to take a few steps back and start with engagement training and teaching the dog to be lured by food. The luring itself is a learned skill. The great thing is luring and engagement training can be done at the same time. Just lure him around and practice getting his attention and rewarding his attention towards you and the food. The problem with the luring you described might be solved there or you might need an experienced ring trainer that can help with the situation. Ellis' way of getting a kickout stand from a sit didn't work with my dog because he would plant his ass and fold like an accordion as I pushed into him. I actually had to pull the food toward me to get the butt to fly up and then jam the food back at him before he could take a step forward. Same end result, but slightly different method. You might be luring too fast or too slow it is hard to say. That's why we all need trainers sometimes.

If you get ahead of yourself the dog may not be giving you its full attention and when you're giving a command might not be paying attention. The other thing it could be is the generalization of the command. For example you teach the dog to sit in the kitchen but then you move to the living room and ask for the behavior and he looks at you like he has no idea what you want. He learned it in a certain context, so has to be taught in different contexts. He has to learn sit means sit while you are standing in front of him, while you are sitting in front of him, while you are outside, while you are inside different rooms of the house. It takes a lot of repetitions in lots of different spaces. If he isn't performing your first thought should be does he understand what I want? Your second thought should be is he paying attention? Your third thought should be if you are giving proper motivation. A few months down the line you might then consider that he may just be blowing you off.

You have to keep in mind he is a dog. The vast majority of his brain is dedicated to his nose alone. They rely far less on hearing than we do after all it was one of the last senses they develop, so you will often notice that you can have a hard time separating a visual cue that you used to lure the dog to that position from the auditory cue you ultimately want to use. If you are using a visual cue and an auditory cue at the same time the dog will *always* default to the visual cue over the auditory one unless it is blind. If you don't have 100% of a dogs attention then it makes it harder to get what you want. It isn't usually the dogs fault it is just a function of their biology.

It is why high value treats are so important in training. You have to create that motivation for attention and performance under many different conditions and eventually different distractions to get a complete generalized command. It is also part of the reason Cassidy's Mom goes to many different training facilities, and uses different trainers, and has her dogs learning and training around different dogs.


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## lalachka

I got the power of training with food and power of playing tug. I asked Ed which I should start with and he said those two. 


The power of training with food covers everything you described, how to lure, how to engage. I worked on engagement some but then felt pressured to teach him something already and maybe I rushed. 

I will go back to engagement. That's another skill that I lack, knowing when to move on to something else. 

He's pretty engaged though, I will video a bunch of stuff this weekend.

I'm meeting with a trainer this weekend too but I doubt she can help me with michael's way the way you're doing it. I'm sure she has her method and I'm not going to insist on doing it his way but I still would like to use Michael's if I can when I train by myself. 

Yes, that's exactly what my boy does, plants and it doesn't look pretty lolol

But most of the time he IS trying. If course the engagement is nowhere near Pi's but I doubt it will ever be, I don't have his skills. 

Can you look at my example and tell me whether you think he knows what he should do and is just not doing it (him not sitting sometimes while I open the door).


ETA yes, I know that the dog will always pick visual over verbal lol. Michael is very good at explaining how things work and why, that's why I'm so stuck on him. 

But then how do I ever know that my dog is not responding to the many different visuals that are always there at any situation?

I'd think after 6 months of sitting by the door he at the very least knows that he should sit by the door. Forget about SIT, just looking at that example. 

So i'd say by now he knows he should sit by the door. When he doesn't, do I correct? Or do I wait until he sits anywhere?

If latter then why? He already knows what's expected in a certain situation, what's the problem?


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## Baillif

What do you do if he does the right thing? What do you do if he messes up?


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> What do you do if he does the right thing? What do you do if he messes up?


Ohhh I see. Sometimes I treat, others I'm like it's about time. 

If he doesn't then I put him in a sit with my hands. 


Thank you for asking this, as I'm typing this out I'm realizing that it's my fault again. 

What should I do?


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## lalachka

lalachka said:


> Ohhh I see. Sometimes I treat, others I'm like it's about time.
> 
> If he doesn't then I put him in a sit with my hands.
> 
> 
> Thank you for asking this, as I'm typing this out I'm realizing that it's my fault again.
> 
> What should I do?


This is the problem with many trainers. The first 2 months I followed my first trainer who's old school, no treats. In those 2 months I taught him to sit by the door. By the time I started marker training it seemed weird to treat him for something he should already know (IMO, maybe wrong opinion)


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## lalachka

Sorry for all the posts, as I type things come to me. I should just start from scratch, right? Assume he knows nothing and start over.


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## lalachka

Can I abuse your willingness to help some more? I can't figure this one out. 

When I get his leash and collars to go outside, no matter how much he wants to go out, he will start running away from me. Every single time I have to chase him and hold him to make him sit so I can collar him.


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## Baillif

First off it is never bad to treat for a behavior they already know. Zebu has been sitting since he was 7 weeks old. He still gets treats or rewards for it when training. Not every time of course but still fairly often.

You don't need to start from scratch. Just do the engagement only training and then when you have him at a point where he wants what you have, and is looking for more, then you can show him something. If his attention starts to wain either stop the session if it has been going for too long, or try to make yourself or the treats more interesting by making it "run" from him.

Regarding the door issue. What some people do is they would treat for the correct behavior but if the dog tried to jam himself through too quick they'd close the door on the dog and let him get "stuck" for a bit. Don't slam it on him of course. They catch on really quick and you might even try to trick him into doing the wrong thing a few times.

I don't normally use aversives so early in training, but in a few cases I do because it could potentially save the dogs life, and IMO out weigh the cons . 

1 is in recall, because an iron clad recall is super important and probably the single most important dog command ever. You need to be able to recall a dog from the street or from chasing other animals or people because not doing so could mean disaster.

2. Is in jumping on the counter or on people.

3. Is to keep dogs from darting out of doors ahead of me without permission. You never know what is on the other side of that door. Policeman with a gun, traffic on the street out beyond the door, postman, neighbors kid etc. Do what you gotta do to make it happen.


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## Baillif

Never chase the dog. They love it. Run from him and he will chase you.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Never chase the dog. They love it. Run from him and he will chase you.


I already know this!!!! This is depressing, like why couldn't I have figured that out myself?

I already use this in other scenarios (to make him come to me, to engage him. So why couldn't I have solved this one?

ETA so at some point he will stop running away or we will always be playing games before going out?


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## Baillif

Dogs are not the only living things that need to generalize certain behaviors. Now you can start to appreciate why it can take so long for the dogs to get it.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Dogs are not the only living things that need to generalize certain behaviors. Now you can start to appreciate why it can take so long for the dogs to get it.


Lol good point. 

I already appreciate it because I read Ed's post where he says to do this exercise where you try teaching someone something without using words. And then have them do it to you. 

But I will now appreciate the generalization part of it as well))))))


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## lalachka

Oh yeah, how could I forget to post this!!!! I have a sad humping story lol

I posted that I've been arguing withy his guy over whether dogs should be allowed to hump. It was peaceful, just a debate of sorts. So 2 weeks ago his dog postured over mine. I moved towards them to get him off and he started growling and then my boy did too and they had a scuffle. We got them apart, they went at it 2 more times. No damage, just lunging (why he wasn't holding him I don't know, I was holding mine so his dog attacked us both) 

Anyway, that's when my boy lunged at a girl and I decided to leash him 24/7. The girl was standing around when they scuffled and he was prolly on edge but still, unacceptable. 


So I see him a few more times, we have the same old debate. He tells me my dog wouldn't mind if I didn't move towards them to separate them, that he saw my reaction and started freaking out. Yeah, everyone loves being dominated, he didn't mind at all. 

Whatever, I just told him they can't play anymore, he once again tried convincing me otherwise. 


So last night I'm at the park and my dog is leashed playing with my friend's husky. I was so focused on them (the long leash gets wrapped around them and it's dangerous) that I missed his dog running towards them from 100 or more feet away. This is all at night, in the dark. 

And again he postures over him and growls. I freaking lost it and we ended up cursing each other out. 


The point of the story is, are people stupid? He's young, 20. But is that an excuse? When he first ran over to get his dog off and I was screaming at him he said I'm babying him and they're playing. 

I can't take this anymore. Is the park not big enough? I explained to him nicely that my dog has fear issues, the last thing he needs is a dog dominating him. 

Well, at least he will be watching his dog now. 


I know that I should already stop going there but I can't. Me not going there means my dog doesn't get to run and to me that's not OK. 

Most people don't come over anymore, they took the hint of me going to different corners away from everyone. But some people don't get hints. 

Feel free to ignore, I had to get this out. No one I know cares about this or understands what I'm saying, they don't have dogs. 


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## Baillif

It is hard to say without looking at it. I don't take my dogs to dog parks with dogs I don't know pretty much because of the reasons you're running into now. 

He might have been right on you causing your dog to flip out the first time. Any other encounter after that may have been the result of being touchy as a result of the first scuffle. I don't know for sure I would have had to have seen it. The wrong kind of energy can definitely escalate the situation instead of diffusing it, and it sounded like the wrong kind of energy happened. 

You just want to avoid a situation where you can't control both dogs interactions. You can run into this socially vague area where you sometimes need to correct another persons dog to diffuse the situation properly, but could run into problems with the owner in doing so. Just avoid it. If an attack hasn't happened yet and it is just posturing you want to carefully extract your dog in a calm manner. If it turned into a fight I myself would go after the other dog and let mine go.

Protect your dog in encounters like that. I've been walking mine before when he was quite a bit younger on leash and was charged by some sort of terrier that came through my physical and verbal warnings to back off. It was coming aggressively at my puppy while we were on a public street and I assumed it hostile and I kicked it in the head 3 times before I drove it off and I did this in front of the owner. I didn't apologize I didn't care if her dog was ok (it looked fine) , shes lucky I didn't report her dog to animal control. An untrained dog that will keep coming through clear warnings is a rare bird, and not in a good way.

On the flip side. Train your dog. You don't want him ending up on the opposite side of the boot.

Young dogs do things that are considered dominance moves to each other in play. Dog play is practice for much less innocent instincts and behaviors. Zebu will attempt to T up my older lab to get him to play with him. Zebu has also T-ed up my girlfriends parents basset hound. The basset gets annoyed and chases Zebu and then Zebu runs from him and dodges him. My lab is secure in his dominance over Zebu so even if Zebu starts trying to hump him he will generally just ignore him and Zebu upon seeing he can't get a reaction will stop. 

The point at which you have to stop it is basically a litmus test of taking away the dog that is on offense. If the other dog is like hey what the ****? we were playing! Then just let it go.


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## lalachka

Here's the thing. I don't let my dog hump or posture over any dog. At some point he tried and I stopped it every time so now he doesn't even try. So at the very least it's not fair to him to be dominated since I don't let him dominate other dogs. Basically, he can't answer them. 

So yeah, when I see any dog do it to him I will stop it. I'm spending all this energy on building his confidence (rolling around in the grass acting like he won the tug at your advice lol, it's cool) so that he can then be dominated?

I've been debating with this kid for weeks, basically this is my way of nicely telling him why I don't like it and why I don't want it done to my boy. He doesn't get it. Now that I cursed him out - he got it and he's watching his dog. 

Why does it have to come to that? Why not just respect my wishes or if you can't then keep your dog away. 


For the past month I've been avoiding all dogs except my friend's husky. They've played since they were little, they're 2 months apart and neither of them are aggressive. I'm always staying by myself in a far away spot, I want to be alone just with him. I come out to train and play with him. Everyone else comes out to talk and they don't watch their dogs. 

I am just venting. I want to be left alone. I'm getting ruder and ruder with every encounter and I don't like it. 



ETA I'm mad at myself that I can't tell people that I don't want to be bothered. I hint and hints don't work with people. Until I'm pissed off and lose control I cant just say that i'd like to be alone. 

I'm basically annoyed at myself for being so soft. 

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## lalachka

Here's one I'm really mad at myself for. There's a chihuahua mix pup there too, he's adorable!!!!! Omg the cutest thing. 

And his owner comes over and lets him play with my boy. My boy has been very gentle and he's never aggressive to dogs so the owner likes it and always comes over. 

I'm extremely uncomfortable. Yeah, he's been very good but he plays with his mouth and he's a dog. What if prey drive kicks in? He can kill him in half a second. 
And I can't say anything. 

So I stay by his mouth and watch like a hawk. 
And there's another one with a larger pup. Same story. 

Why can't I say something?


ETA basically, if a person is nice to me and hasn't done anything bad I can't deny them. 

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## Baillif

I still say the answer is to just keep your dog away from the dog parks and use tug games or fetch games (once you train them) to wear the dog out. Even a tug put on a rod and string like a flirt pole to tease him will get the job done faster than letting him run in a fenced in area. At the same time you are encouraging the engagement with yourself.

You ultimately can't control what other people do with their dogs. Most are going to be polite about it if you ask but you will run into others that just won't. Your dog doesn't have to interact with other dogs to become socialized to them. When I socialized my pup to strange people and situations I didn't have all the strangers on the street running up to him to pet him. They usually ignored him. He is still fine with the fact that they are there. It is the same way with dogs.

On the leerburg website you will see people calling dogs "doggy" It is a term for dogs that are so fixated on wanting to play with other dogs that they will ignore owner commands or desire play more with other dogs than with the owner. It isn't desirable, and the cause is allowing play with other dogs to be the highlight of their day.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I still say the answer is to just keep your dog away from the dog parks and use tug games or fetch games (once you train them) to wear the dog out. Even a tug put on a rod and string like a flirt pole to tease him will get the job done faster than letting him run in a fenced in area. At the same time you are encouraging the engagement with yourself.
> 
> You ultimately can't control what other people do with their dogs. Most are going to be polite about it if you ask but you will run into others that just won't. Your dog doesn't have to interact with other dogs to become socialized to them. When I socialized my pup to strange people and situations I didn't have all the strangers on the street running up to him to pet him. They usually ignored him. He is still fine with the fact that they are there. It is the same way with dogs.


Tug where lol? I don't have enough open space in my apt, I try sometimes but it's not like the real thing. Besides I have to buy a rug so he stops slipping. And still, there's not enough open space. 

I can't do flirt pole in my apt either. 

I do both these things at the park. It's not fenced, it's a huge open park. 

I'm just venting, I have no good choice. I'm going to keep going and be annoyed. 

I don't go there for other dogs, I go there and work on engagement, play the tug and flirt pole, ball on the string. Whatever I can think of. 


For me it's either walking the streets and no meaningful exercise or the park. It's not a dog park, it's a huge open space with a playground, tennis courts, grass fields. The place is huge. At night there are 5-7 dogs at most. I don't understand the need to come over to where I am. 


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## lalachka

I'd like for him to ignore other dogs as well, hopefully it happens at some point. 

For now I have to grow some ****** courage lol and ask people to stop coming over. 


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## Baillif

Find a field. Get a nylon harness for the dog. A 20 dollar one at petco or something like that will do fine just make sure it is nylon throughout and doesn't have that stretchy padding on it. Bring a family member a long with you to "post the dog." They hold them back on the leash and harness using either a 6 foot leash or a flexileash if you're feeling brave.

Bam you keep the dog from running away. Every so often the person posting can hold the dog back so it builds frustration and drive attempting to get at you and the toy, and you don't have to be worried about your dog running into traffic or breaking leash laws. If you don't have another person to help you can use a tie out stake instead or long line and tie it to an actual post or tree.

If you ever do anything that looks remotely close to bite work with a GSD people tend to shy away. You should see the dirty looks I get in petco sometimes when I'm there training him under distractions.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Find a field. Get a nylon harness for the dog. A 20 dollar one at petco or something like that will do fine just make sure it is nylon throughout and doesn't have that stretchy padding on it. Bring a family member a long with you to "post the dog." They hold them back on the leash and harness using either a 6 foot leash or a flexileash if you're feeling brave.
> 
> Bam you keep the dog from running away. Every so often the person posting can hold the dog back so it builds frustration and drive attempting to get at you and the toy, and you don't have to be worried about your dog running into traffic or breaking leash laws. If you don't have another person to help you can use a tie out stake instead or long line and tie it to an actual post or tree.


I was on my way to petco lol. Yeah, I remember you told me this to do for recall. I will be doing it tonight. It is a field where I am. And that's the only field close by.

Anyway, that not going to help anything. He's on a long line and is always by me.

As I said, I'm venting. It feels good to be able to post all this. 



ETA. I'm doing tugging. And I have a bite pillow but he's not ready for it yet. I hope so)))))


What do you do at petco that they're looking at you?


ETA how do I use the tie out? How do I release him to run to me?

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## Courtney

Are there any school sports fields you can use? Alot of times they are fenced in with gates. Of course you go during non school hours. I use to bring my pup to an adjoining field to work on obedience when sports games were going on. We were alone & it was great for distractions with all the noise & activity.


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## lalachka

Courtney said:


> Are there any school sports fields you can use? Alot of times they are fenced in with gates. Of course you go during non school hours. I use to bring my pup to an adjoining field to work on obedience when sports games were going on. We were alone & it was great for distractions with all the noise & activity.


I usually go after 10 pm so that's def off hours. I will google but I'm afraid I'm not allowed there. Someone from my job does it and she always says how security kicks her out. 

She's in LI so it might be different. Thank you, I will def search. Now I'm thinking baseball fields too. 

One slight problem, if there's no one else there i'd be creeped out. In this park there are people playing basketball in the middle of the night and almost always someone is there. And police passes by every few hours. 


Still worth researching, there might be people there too playing something. 


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## Courtney

Yes. You would want to make sure the area is open to the public. I am lucky that our local school property is open to the public after school hours. However, the high school football field specifically states no dogs aloud. So of course we never went there. Safety first, always be careful & don't go anywhere where you do not feel safe.


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## angierose

If it's a big enough park, why don't you and your dog move somewhere else when you see dogs that may bother you? 

I know you're just venting, but you need to learn to speak up for your dog. I've had to do it, and it's not easy for me, but I do it. You don't have to hold a conversation or explain yourself or anything. "Stay away, please!" That's it. I haven't had any trouble with people following me after that simple phrase.


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## lalachka

Courtney said:


> Yes. You would want to make sure the area is open to the public. I am lucky that our local school property is open to the public after school hours. However, the high school football field specifically states no dogs aloud. So of course we never went there. Safety first, always be careful & don't go anywhere where you do not feel safe.


Yeah, that's what she said, no dogs allowed, she has dogs too so she always gets kicked out. 

But still, it's def worth researching. There must be other places people go to. It's all apartments around here, there must be other places there. 



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## lalachka

angierose said:


> If it's a big enough park, why don't you and your dog move somewhere else when you see dogs that may bother you?
> 
> I know you're just venting, but you need to learn to speak up for your dog. I've had to do it, and it's not easy for me, but I do it. You don't have to hold a conversation or explain yourself or anything. "Stay away, please!" That's it. I haven't had any trouble with people following me after that simple phrase.


I can't))))) I already met them all before I knew any better. 

I will try. It's not easy for me to do. 

We stay at a remote spot and people come over to stay with us. So i'd have to pack up all my stuff and walk away. I know that's what I should do but it's not easy. 


You're right, I have to speak up for him. I will try tonight if anyone comes over. This will be very uncomfortable. 


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## angierose

I have a plethora of mental things that make personal interactions difficult. I had to make the choice to speak up for my dog. He is more important to me than the feelings of strangers or casual friends or my own fear. And keeping him from tearing up the innocent dog of a pushy owner is more important as well. So I do it, even though sometimes I am literally shaking afterwards. And my dog is getting better every day because I can control his borders.


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## lalachka

angierose said:


> I have a plethora of mental things that make personal interactions difficult. I had to make the choice to speak up for my dog. He is more important to me than the feelings of strangers or casual friends or my own fear. And keeping him from tearing up the innocent dog of a pushy owner is more important as well. So I do it, even though sometimes I am literally shaking afterwards. And my dog is getting better every day because I can control his borders.


He's def more important to me than any of them. I don't know why this is so hard. They're not even casual friends, just people I see here and there. 


Life is tough lol
I will try tonight, this is going to be really hard. I'm anxious just thinking about it. 


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## Baillif

Typically the stuff I do in petco will either be engagement with food, obedience with food, or obedience or engagement with tug. The stuff that gets the dirty looks is usually the tug related games. Not sure if its because it looks like I'm encouraging predatory behavior, or because we look a little wild doing it.

You will get dirty looks at a petstore inevitably though. The best one was when I went to get him fitted for a prong collar when he was 5 months old. He was in a harness at the time and whenever the harness is on he can pull me or pull against me pretty much all he wants, as soon as the leash is hooked into his collar he loose leash walks. 

Anyway I guess the people there assumed I was getting a prong collar to keep him from pulling, and I wasn't even getting it with the intention of using it in any other way other than having him wear it sometimes so he got used to having it on for training when he is quite a bit older. And the sales clerk says don't you think you should use a martingale instead so you don't hurt your little guy? Um nah that's kinda what I'm going for? They don't get that a correction can be so much lighter and less harmful with a prong than a martingale.


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## lalachka

Really? The people at the store say stuff like that? Who asked for their opinion?

Besides, people are clueless. Really. Prong is much better than a choke though it looks scarier. 

You play tug at petco????

Anyway, I bought a harness yesterday, tonight I will try out the come games. I don't want to depend on my friend being there, so how do I do this by myself? Have a 2nd leash and run it around a post and once I'm ready to let him go I just let go off it?


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## Baillif

I play tug there with a second person posting the dog. Can't let them do stuff off leash there.

You can keep your dog leashed to the post by the harness while you tug you just play inside of the area he can reach you, and then occasionally dip outside of the area he can get to you to build frustration. Do this sparingly though. Make him miss too many times and they get frustrated and give up sometimes.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I play tug there with a second person posting the dog. Can't let them do stuff off leash there.
> 
> You can keep your dog leashed to the post by the harness while you tug you just play inside of the area he can reach you, and then occasionally dip outside of the area he can get to you to build frustration. Do this sparingly though. Make him miss too many times and they get frustrated and give up sometimes.


I don't think he's ready for this. Michael said not to frustrate them too early. My boy already gives up after a few tries so at this point I'm letting him win at every aspect. 

I was going to do the COME. Michael does that in some video. He holds someone's dog and doesn't let them go to the owner until the dog calms just a tiny bit. That makes them want to go to you. 

I was going to do that


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## Baillif

Start off somewhere with minimal distraction too. You have to teach them to keep engaged with the game, and everytime you change locations it is like taking a few steps back, regardless of distraction level. Distraction level is has its own way of taking away focus and drive for the toy but if you keep it fun and make sure you activate that prey drive then you should keep his attention. The toughest part by far is getting him to reengage with you once he won the toy.


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## Baillif

When he doesn't let them go until they calm down a bit that is more due to keeping them from getting vocal usually. I usually want the dog at the apex of his frustration before I give the come command before the dog is let go. It also helps if you are still running from the dog when you call for him to come because you are stacking drives his desire to be with you, his prey drive, and when you have a treat his food drive.

Letting him win at first everytime is def the way to go. You also want to work more on prey drive than his actual desire to tug at first. Focus more on making the tug an attractive prey item and less on the struggle he has once he catches it at first. It is pretty common to zonk the dog out within half a dozen tries. The higher drive the dog is the longer he will generally go, but also has a lot to do with other factors such as temperature and other activity he has had that day.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Start off somewhere with minimal distraction too. You have to teach them to keep engaged with the game, and everytime you change locations it is like taking a few steps back, regardless of distraction level. Distraction level is has its own way of taking away focus and drive for the toy but if you keep it fun and make sure you activate that prey drive then you should keep his attention. The toughest part by far is getting him to reengage with you once he won the toy.


I'm so glad you mentioned that. I thought once again I sucked. 
Got you, at home he IS more engaged but it's not fun here lol, no space


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> When he doesn't let them go until they calm down a bit that is more due to keeping them from getting vocal usually. I usually want the dog at the apex of his frustration before I give the come command before the dog is let go. It also helps if you are still running from the dog when you call for him to come because you are stacking drives his desire to be with you, his prey drive, and when you have a treat his food drive.


If I understood him right, him waiting until the dog calms just a bit is so that the dog is not all over the place hysterical, so that he runs straight to the owner. 
Like when I come home and my dog is hysterical though he wants to get to me he can't. He jumps everywhere, cries, there are no drives just hysteria. 

That's how i understood this. To me it'd also make more sense to let him go at the peak of his cries


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## lalachka

I have a little update. I met with the trainer yesterday. We stood at a busy corner for an hour waiting for dogs and kids to pass by and stuff treats in him if he didn't react. 

Basically, she would look at him and once she noticed he was focused on anyone (dog, person, kid) i'd start giving him treats until they were out of sight. If he did react (only a few times out of many) she sprayed him. 
I was def not doing this right, she pointed out many things I did wrong. It sooooo helps having someone see you do things. 

I have a good dog, he's not dog aggressive, he wants to get to them and play. He's fear aggressive to people and kids but everything is def fixable and I saw it work yesterday. 

And he can go to her classes, he's not too out of control. 

So thank you whoever pushed me to get a trainer, I feel much better. He's still on leash at the park and will be until he stops reacting and comes when called.


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## Capone22

lalachka said:


> I have a little update. I met with the trainer yesterday. We stood at a busy corner for an hour waiting for dogs and kids to pass by and stuff treats in him if he didn't react.
> 
> Basically, she would look at him and once she noticed he was focused on anyone (dog, person, kid) i'd start giving him treats until they were out of sight. If he did react (only a few times out of many) she sprayed him.
> I was def not doing this right, she pointed out many things I did wrong. It sooooo helps having someone see you do things.
> 
> I have a good dog, he's not dog aggressive, he wants to get to them and play. He's fear aggressive to people and kids but everything is def fixable and I saw it work yesterday.
> 
> And he can go to her classes, he's not too out of control.
> 
> So thank you whoever pushed me to get a trainer, I feel much better. He's still on leash at the park and will be until he stops reacting and comes when called.


Glad thugs went well. Not loving the trainer. Have you looked into controlled unleashed? They might have some classes near you. Some trainers are picking it up. 

Eta. Where are you located? Maybe we can help look for a good trainer. 


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## lalachka

Capone22 said:


> Glad thugs went well. Not loving the trainer. Have you looked into controlled unleashed? They might have some classes near you. Some trainers are picking it up.
> 
> Eta. Where are you located? Maybe we can help look for a good trainer.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


NYC. Why comment about the trainer? I'm not THRILLED with her but as I was told many times over here, if I keep looking for the perfect one my dog will get old. Better doing something. 

Actually, we just came back from standing at a corner doing the same thing. There were no dogs but a few people he'd usually bark at and no barks. 

So at least this part of it works. But I'm taking suggestions, can you explain why uu said that?


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## David Winners

I think if you are getting good results, which it sounds like you are, you should stick with your current trainer.

This is really good news!

David Winners


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## DaniFani

I for one, am very glad you found a trainer and are sticking with her. Good luck!


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## lalachka

David Winners said:


> I think if you are getting good results, which it sounds like you are, you should stick with your current trainer.
> 
> This is really good news!
> 
> David Winners


I am not going anywhere until this stops working. I'm excited and now am looking forward to seeing dogs and my neighbors that he lunges at because I know what to do. 

I was just wondering what Capone saw, strictly because I'm nosy lolol


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> I for one, am very glad you found a trainer and are sticking with her. Good luck!


Thank you)))))) I'm glad myself, I feel empowered lolol 

I don't get stressed out when I see a dog or a kid anymore. I'm sure this played a role in it but I couldn't help myself because I saw what he's done before.


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## lalachka

Also, yesterday, at some random moment it finally clicked for me how dog training can be done in diff ways and they will all work. 

I know, it's a simple concept and uu guys said this 100 times but it didn't stick. 

So all of a sudden I'm like 'there are 10 ways to accomplish the same thing in programming and the result will be the same (for the most part, some take a split second longer, or take more lines of code) so the same must work for dogs, even old school training obviously works, it's been used for decades'. 

Yeah, I'm staying as long as her methods solve my problems. I don't have to have the most elegant code, I can work on bettering my methods when everything is working fine.


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## Baillif

You'll start to see cases where methods work with some dogs better than others as well. For instance if your dog didn't want to take food outside, but would play with a toy you'd have had to use that instead. That will be the trick going forward with your dog. You will see his needs and desires change and evolve and thus your methodology for training him will change and evolve with it if you want to stay optimal. It is an art. Hence the need for trainers.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> You'll start to see cases where methods work with some dogs better than others as well. For instance if your dog didn't want to take food outside, but would play with a toy you'd have had to use that instead. That will be the trick going forward with your dog. You will see his needs and desires change and evolve and thus your methodology for training him will change and evolve with it if you want to stay optimal. It is an art. Hence the need for trainers.


It def is an art. To be a good trainer you have to have the talent for it. I still stick by it. 

I might reach a level at some point where my dog will be under control but I will never be a really good trainer. As won't many others.


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## Baillif

You could surprise yourself. The more dogs you work with, the more different trainers and training techniques you see, and the more you work on timing the better you get. Many of us who have owned or worked with dogs for a long time have dogs where if we had it to do over again would have done things differently. We all had our learning dogs. In particular I can remember a Lab I had that was mostly compulsion trained. If I had another chance with him I wouldn't have done things that way.


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## Capone22

lalachka said:


> NYC. Why comment about the trainer? I'm not THRILLED with her but as I was told many times over here, if I keep looking for the perfect one my dog will get old. Better doing something.
> 
> Actually, we just came back from standing at a corner doing the same thing. There were no dogs but a few people he'd usually bark at and no barks.
> 
> So at least this part of it works. But I'm taking suggestions, can you explain why uu said that?


They are right, if it's working go with it. I don't love the spray bottle idea. But I don't necessarily hate it. It's just one of those things where your not always going to have a spray bottle on you. And with the food for looking at the dogs, i would prefer a LAT system where they look at the dog and then to you for their reward because it's almost like a cue is put on it. Vs. just giving the dog food for looking at the dog, no cue and hoping he makes the connection. If it stops working later on, is recommend LAT and controlled unleaded. But I know it's Very hard to find a good trainer locally. And I hope it all works out for u. Kudos for putting in so much work! 


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----------



## Capone22

Baillif said:


> You could surprise yourself. The more dogs you work with, the more different trainers and training techniques you see, and the more you work on timing the better you get. Many of us who have owned or worked with dogs for a long time have dogs where if we had it to do over again would have done things differently. We all had our learning dogs. In particular I can remember a Lab I had that was mostly compulsion trained. If I had another chance with him I wouldn't have done things that way.


So true. First dog was trained in strictly the Koehler method. Insane amount of corrections. This dog had a lot of drive and I was to squash it, not work with it. If I knew what I know now things would have been so different for her. 


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## Baillif

True on the water bottle, but I would bet it would be much easier to do that LAT system after having used the spray bottle than it would have been if that was how he started.

Yeah part of the reason I'm on here I think is to atone for that dog. The Lab I had after him that is still alive had things quite differently. He was easy though, would do anything for a game of fetch. So much so I call his ball the orb of mind control.


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## lalachka

Capone22 said:


> They are right, if it's working go with it. I don't love the spray bottle idea. But I don't necessarily hate it. It's just one of those things where your not always going to have a spray bottle on you. And with the food for looking at the dogs, i would prefer a LAT system where they look at the dog and then to you for their reward because it's almost like a cue is put on it. Vs. just giving the dog food for looking at the dog, no cue and hoping he makes the connection. If it stops working later on, is recommend LAT and controlled unleaded. But I know it's Very hard to find a good trainer locally. And I hope it all works out for u. Kudos for putting in so much work!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ohhhh. I agree. I don't like it either and I won't be doing it, that's what she did when I was there. And it's not water, she tried water and he loved it so she did bitter apple. 

Anyway, even if I always carried it with me I wouldn't have enough hands. No, for me it will be a pop on the prong. Her and I disagree on corrections but she doesn't know that))))))

Also, I'm glad you brought that point up. Before her i'd say pop pop, have him look at me, say yes and then treat. That's what I did when she was there. 
Here's what happens, for now, he's so focused on whatever it is that sometimes he won't react to me (or I don't catch it in time) so she said to just treat him. 

The idea is to not let him get in the zone, set him up for success I guess. 

Once he doesn't react as much I will go back to asking for his attention. 


So we are on the same page)))))


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## lalachka

Capone22 said:


> So true. First dog was trained in strictly the Koehler method. Insane amount of corrections. This dog had a lot of drive and I was to squash it, not work with it. If I knew what I know now things would have been so different for her.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


IF it happens I will def be surprised. I do believe some talent is required to be really good at it, exceptionally good. 
Like stand out. That's what I mean. 


Timing, knowing when to 'fight' and when to let go, when to correct and how much and many other things 
I don't see my clumsy self ever getting there but I guess you're right, never know


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> True on the water bottle, but I would bet it would be much easier to do that LAT system after having used the spray bottle than it would have been if that was how he started.
> 
> Yeah part of the reason I'm on here I think is to atone for that dog. The Lab I had after him that is still alive had things quite differently. He was easy though, would do anything for a game of fetch. So much so I call his ball the orb of mind control.


I knew that's what she does for corrections before I went to meet her (thank you Selzer for reminding me to ask lol) and I knew that those are not my kind of corrections. 

But I decided to go anyway, see what she teaches and just correct my own way. I don't have to argue with her, I will only see her once in a blue so I didn't even say anything. Just made believe I will do the same thing.


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## Baillif

That does remind me though. My trainer has a quote up on his facebook he likes to flaunt every so often. "If at first you don't succeed try doing what the trainer told you to do in the first place."


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> That does remind me though. My trainer has a quote up on his facebook he likes to flaunt every so often. "If at first you don't succeed try doing what the trainer told you to do in the first place."


)))))))))))))) soooo true


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## Capone22

You hav a good head on your shoulders! Good luck  update soon. 


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## lalachka

Capone22 said:


> You hav a good head on your shoulders! Good luck  update soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


lol if you say so
And updates are coming, count on that)))))


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## selzer

I am glad that you have a trainer, and will be able to go to classes too with her. Good. 

I think it is not unreasonable to start with giving the dog treats when he sees another dog to get the attention back on you/the treats. Eventually, as he starts to look for treats when he sees another dog, you can start having him look at your face, or tell him to sit, and then treat. But, my guess is that your trainer will help you move forward with that, once your dog is ready to advance. 

What you were doing, wasn't working, and this seems to be at this point. I have never used a squirt can. A couple of classes ago, my trainer showed up with a carpenter's apron/belt. She said, that you can put your treats here, and your toy there, and a clicker here, etc. I hate gadgets. So I did not bother looking into the apron/belt thingy, but if you want to carry a water pistol or something to manage this behavior (my guess is that this shouldn't be something you would need to do long term), then that's an idea. Everything easy to grab and at your finger tips.


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## lalachka

selzer said:


> I am glad that you have a trainer, and will be able to go to classes too with her. Good.
> 
> I think it is not unreasonable to start with giving the dog treats when he sees another dog to get the attention back on you/the treats. Eventually, as he starts to look for treats when he sees another dog, you can start having him look at your face, or tell him to sit, and then treat. But, my guess is that your trainer will help you move forward with that, once your dog is ready to advance.
> 
> What you were doing, wasn't working, and this seems to be at this point. I have never used a squirt can. A couple of classes ago, my trainer showed up with a carpenter's apron/belt. She said, that you can put your treats here, and your toy there, and a clicker here, etc. I hate gadgets. So I did not bother looking into the apron/belt thingy, but if you want to carry a water pistol or something to manage this behavior (my guess is that this shouldn't be something you would need to do long term), then that's an idea. Everything easy to grab and at your finger tips.


I'm the same way, I don't hate electronic gadgets though)))))

Nope, no spray for me. I will stick with my pops. 

However, question about the spray. I installed the baby gate and he's doing OK so far. I haven't left him alone yet though. 

Anyhow, I was going to buy the spray to use at the house for things like him whining and barking when behind the gate, attacking or chasing my cats, etc

Is that a good idea? Or what do I do?

Selzer, in case you didn't see, thank you for your list of questions and pushing me (along with others). Your questions helped out a lot!!!! I wouldn't think to ask some of them (like what type of a leash) and it'd be a disappointment.


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## Baillif

For the other stuff I don't see an issue, but with whining you probably want to try to get a sense of why the dog is doing it first. It is a communication thing, and you should be receptive to why the dog is doing it. Does he need to go outside to relieve himself? Is he hungry or thirsty? Are his exercise needs being met? You should allow some feedback, but be prepared to stop it if he is just being a jerk. I usually do this through nag corrections or training them to relax on cue.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> For the other stuff I don't see an issue, but with whining you probably want to try to get a sense of why the dog is doing it first. It is a communication thing, and you should be receptive to why the dog is doing it. Does he need to go outside to relieve himself? Is he hungry or thirsty? Are his exercise needs being met? You should allow some feedback, but be prepared to stop it if he is just being a jerk. I usually do this through nag corrections or training them to relax on cue.


Lol I know why he's whining, I'm trying to get him to stay in the hallway behind the baby gate. I'd never spray him any other time for whining. 

But this is like crate training and my first trainer was doing this, he'd splash water out of a cup at him. I don't want to do that, too much water on the floor so I was going to get the spray

ETA. How do you teach them to relax on cue?



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## lalachka

Yeah, sooooo. It didn't take my boy too long to put me at a dumb freeze again. 

Last night he barked at nothing in the park. There was not one person there and it was dark. He kept looking at one spot and barking. 


Lol what do I do? I can't treat while the threat is in his view because I don't see a threat and also, he kept on for a minute or two. I kept trying to play with him and he'd focus back every few moments and bark. 


Also, I start freaking out myself lol 
I wrote about the nice rapist on the loose with a taser gun, he raped an old lady. And he 'works' in the park next to mine. 

So I start looking around the bushes myself))))))

What should I do?))))))))) basically, do I really work on getting him to stop barking? I actually feel safer when he does at night. He sounds really scary. 

But I don't want to confuse him, bark, don't bark. 

Lol one problem after another


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## Blanketback

Barking is great, IMO. The dog just needs to learn "quiet" too - or whatever word you want, as long as you can turn the bark off, lol. But, a rapist with a taser sounds like someone I wouldn't want to mess around with, barking dog or not. That's really scary, and I'd want some serious protection before putting myself in that situation. I mean way more serious than a GSD, not even a PPD. Be careful!!!

I never resorted to spraying my dogs to keep them from whining, but I did have good results using the penny can with my last GSD. This is just an empty can with some pennies in it, taped shut. The idea is to rattle it when the dog barks, to disrupt the barking, and praise the quiet. The dog is startled to hear the noise, so it momentarily stops barking, yay. Maybe some people will dislike this idea, but to me it's better than squirting a dog - although whatever works speaks for itself, I guess


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Barking is great, IMO. The dog just needs to learn "quiet" too - or whatever word you want, as long as you can turn the bark off, lol. But, a rapist with a taser sounds like someone I wouldn't want to mess around with, barking dog or not. That's really scary, and I'd want some serious protection before putting myself in that situation. I mean way more serious than a GSD, not even a PPD. Be careful!!!
> 
> I never resorted to spraying my dogs to keep them from whining, but I did have good results using the penny can with my last GSD. This is just an empty can with some pennies in it, taped shut. The idea is to rattle it when the dog barks, to disrupt the barking, and praise the quiet. The dog is startled to hear the noise, so it momentarily stops barking, yay. Maybe some people will dislike this idea, but to me it's better than squirting a dog - although whatever works speaks for itself, I guess


I'm sure it's another dumb thing I say, but anything can happen. I'm sure there are many more walking around that I don't know about. 

Do I lock myself in the house? 

My dog is not a protection dog lolol he will hide behind me when he's scared, I protect him in our duo

Besides, what protection? I'm not sure i'd be able to use it if it came down to it. I have pepper spray that I bought for dog fights but I don't know if i'd use it. 

I don't know if i'd use a gun if I had one. Many people wouldn't be able to pull the trigger though they think they would. Most people are programmed against harming others, self defense or not and criminals always have that advantage. 

Also, most people are not walking around on edge ready for a fight and criminals have that on their side as well. I'm not saying that we should just give up, no way. 
But preparation IMO is more than just carrying something. A person that's ready to kill doesn't need weapons. You can stick someone in the eyes with your fingers, for example. 


As far as spraying or penny cans, I will try penny cans first. I felt bad when he was being sprayed lolol

I just don't know that penny cans will work for the cats, I scream at him when he does it and no reaction.
Besides, he's not scared of sounds, thunder, loud bikes, construction, whatever. 



ETA about stopping barking on command. 

First of all, how?
And 2nd, let's say last night I told him to stop. Does that mean that if someone is still in the bushes then he won't bark again? Until when? A different person in the bushes?

Like how does this work when you stop a bark?

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## Blanketback

I think everyone does it differently. Some people say to teach the dog to bark on command first, then work on the quiet command. I do it differently, so that when I interrupt the barking, I rewarded the quiet. My current dog is different from my last one, in terms of what he thinks is bark-worthy. I have to use "stay" with "quiet" so that he knows to keep quiet, otherwise he'll bark again in a few minutes - does that makes sense? 

I doubt very much that the penny can will do anything to stop the cat chasing, lol! That's just too much fun. You have to stop him from the chase, period. If you have to tether him to keep him from doing it, then that's what you have to do. Screaming will more than likely make the game all the more fun, IMO. Sorry, lol! 

It's never too late to introduce the crate. Make it a nice comfy den, give them good things in there, and the dogs will love it. Make is a terrible jail cell where they're just shoved in, and then they'll probably hate it. It's a nice thing to have, I'll say. My puppy will make himself a den too - he squishes himself behind my chair and sleeps there, lol. They really do like them. DH's dog will sleep in my puppy's crate when he's not using it - I have to crate my puppy when I work or he'll electrocute himself with his fascination with all things wire-like.


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## lalachka

I bought a crate months ago and then sold it a week later lol

I don't have space, def not in my bedroom, maybe in the living room but that means that crate time is always away from me. I'm always in the bedroom. 

I have a hallway that has doors everywhere, so we lock him up there, I don't let him loose in the house. 

Now I put the baby gate there and using the hallway as a crate. Same principle I guess. 

He only gets toys there. Also, any good bones are there too and I'm thinking of only giving him his favorite treats there too. 

If there was space for the crate in my bedroom i'd do it. I will see if I can throw some furniture away. 

For now, at least for a month I will work on using the hallway as the crate. 

It's not going too well  he was OK yesterday when I was home. Today as I was leaving and told him to go in there he ran to the door to his leashes. That was soo sad. And my daughter is home, he's not even being left alone. 

I had to take him by the collar and bring him there. And I heard him barking after I left. 

So sad


As far as the cats, I do have him tethered sometimes and he still tries. I can have him tethered all the time, I'm just not sure what to do when he chases. Do I tether him by the prong and pop him really hard? What do I do?


And barking, yes, it makes sense. As long as I tell him to quiet and he still barks after a few mins for the same threat I'm OK. 

Also, will this not confuse him? I'm trying to not let him bark at dogs and people that are not threats. How will he know which is a threat and that he's allowed to bark?



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## Blanketback

I don't have alot of room in my bedroom either, so I used a regular cheapo babygate and wedged it between my bed and the wall. This worked when he was 8 weeks old, lol - so maybe not so good for you - but it ingrained in him that this was his spot. Now if I say "go on your bed" he's right there.

Uh, I don't know how to teach the dog what's a threat and what's not a threat when you're going into parks late at night with a rapist on the loose. I'd be more inclined to trust the dog, and if he barked at the shrubbery, I'd be outta there! 

I didn't use prong corrections for teaching my puppy not to chase the cat. But he was taught the word "no" from the start. He couldn't connect "leave it" with anything that wasn't an inanimate object for a long time, lol, so that didn't work for him. But I would remove him from the situation. And, maybe everyone will think I'm crazy, but the cat got verbal corrections for instigating too - "stop teasing the puppy!" - because she's a wild one and I know for a fact that she was starting the chase games.


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## lalachka

I introduced my dog to my cats in the worst way. I did no research at all, I thought there's nothing to know. 

So I did what they say to never do: put him on the floor and let them deal with each other
I'm now paying the price. We have wars at my house. I will record this part of it. It's hard to record videos outside when he's bugging out so that will take time but I can easily do the cat wars

It's funny too, I know I shouldn't but I can't help it. 

But the worst thing is that I don't know how to change it. I'm not home on weekdays, so usually it's my 18 year old and I can't trust her to keep him tethered and diligently watch for his reaction and react before he does. 

So I'm hoping to spray him on weekends and maybe he will stop


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## Baillif

Whenever a pup gets weird on you and starts barking at random crap that may or may not even be there, you can take him over there and let him investigate. I still have times where Zebu gets a little weird on me and starts barking at a park bench because he misinterprets what it is. I just take him over there let him have a look and either play around it or feed him near it. They get over it pretty quick. Sometimes it is just a hormone thing, but I wouldn't actually address the barking itself in that case.

As for relaxing on cue you can take him in your arms and hold him and when he starts to struggle to get away or move around you hold him a bit more securely until he gives up and relaxes and when that happens you mark that behavior and your praise him calmly and give affection. Also anytime you see him awake but relaxed and chilling out go ahead and praise him "good relax" or whatever you want to use just stay consistent.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Whenever a pup gets weird on you and starts barking at random crap that may or may not even be there, you can take him over there and let him investigate. I still have times where Zebu gets a little weird on me and starts barking at a park bench because he misinterprets what it is. I just take him over there let him have a look and either play around it or feed him near it. They get over it pretty quick. Sometimes it is just a hormone thing, but I wouldn't actually address the barking itself in that case.
> 
> As for relaxing on cue you can take him in your arms and hold him and when he starts to struggle to get away or move around you hold him a bit more securely until he gives up and relaxes and when that happens you mark that behavior and your praise him calmly and give affection. Also anytime you see him awake but relaxed and chilling out go ahead and praise him "good relax" or whatever you want to use just stay consistent.


wow, thank you for the relaxing thing, will definitely do this


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## lalachka

I got some videos

Nothing special though, hard to catch the good moments outside


Him barking at nothing at the park
http://youtu.be/PP7ZZQVO9hI

'Crate' training, I'm using my hallway as a crate
http://youtu.be/ii7Ici9VtMc



Him barking first at crating and then at my cat. Usually it's much more violent, if the cat tries going in my room or the kitchen. I guess that's Boomer's territory whoever decided on that
http://youtu.be/ODNqJUpy6JA


Here's what I'm looking for. Any help on crate training. I can't sit there throwing treats there all day. If I go out of site he barks. Should I really spray him?


The barking at the park. Is he aggressive? Scared? Both?


And my cat, we have wars here. I'm keeping him tethered to me but he still lunges so I pop on the prong really hard until he stops. 

I don't have a better solution. Should I spray him for both the 'crate' and the cats'

I don't have bitter apple spray. What can I use? Can I dilute vinegar and water? I want to make sure it's safe. 

I'm home today so I want to use those days to get him used to staying inside. He whines every 5 seconds




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## lalachka

He's so cute when he does these medium loud barks with different tones, it's like he's talking. I usually don't have it in me to tell him to be quiet, he's too adorable. 

What is he saying lol?


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## lalachka

I just got an almost real cat war. Sometimes it even worse. 

All the while he was doing it I was pinching his neck really hard. He usually reacts right away and sits but not when he's amped up. 

Also, he wouldn't sit when I kept telling him too. 

http://youtu.be/FllQRvELrrM


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## DaniFani

My dogs get corrections for whining in their crates. When we are out at training/tracking fields, they have to be calm and quiet in their crates. My GSD used to whine like crazy because he was so excited to train....but it was also accompanied by stress-yawning and anxiety (he was very needy). To fix it my TD had me put his crate in the middle of the family room and crate him periodically throughout the day, while we were home and doing things around the house. He was crate trained already, but really the only time he was in a crate was when we weren't home or at night. So I had to teach him that he also had to behave when we were around. He got a stern "knock it off" and if he still didn't stop I'd shake the cage door and say "knock it off." If you are using the spray bottle, I would be correcting him for all that whining and carrying on....it only took a day/day and a half of the periodic crating and corrections for him to be completely obedient in the crate. I am sure there are other ways to do this, but it worked for me, didn't traumatize the dog lol, and it was fast....I am all about fast training...I think it's better for the dog and me...like I said a while ago, I feel that if the dog isn't getting it fast enough then I need to try something else. I don't like trying the same thing over and over and over again, if you watch, most dogs completely lose interest...and I want training to always be a fun, fluid, thing, and I want to always be moving forward.


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## DaniFani

The video with him barking at nothing:

I am just really seeing a dog that does whatever he wants. I think you're timing needs to be a lot better, and I would be correcting for the barking at nothing. You should be way more active and fun with him. I would make the whole time about obedience and focus. I'd be working on downs/sits/recalls. The one time you recalled him he completely blew you off and you let him blow you off, and then (I think) pulled him on the leash. That timing needs to be better, recall him, if he doesn't come immediately I would give him a correction (pop pop on the leash), as soon as he turned towards me, I become the best thing in the world. Excitedly praising and treating. You want coming to you to be preferred and exciting and you want to block him blowing you off or going away from you, you have that long line on him, use it!  Anyway, I am sure more experienced trainers will be chiming in. This is just really basic stuff though, and I see a dog that just gets away with too much. I think* he can be a great dog, he just needs waaay more boundaries.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I just got an almost real cat war. Sometimes it even worse.
> 
> All the while he was doing it I was pinching his neck really hard. He usually reacts right away and sits but not when he's amped up.
> 
> Also, he wouldn't sit when I kept telling him too.
> 
> Boomer and the cat war - YouTube
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh, my dog would be getting a big correction for the barking/wanting to go after the cat. You have to really be careful, he can kill that cat. I would be teaching avoidance to the cats. Even though he isn't chasing the cat, all the barking and carrying on, he mine as well be chasing and killing the cat lol. My dogs are taught from puppies that they are to get along with the cat (and my cat would whoop the dogs if he had too...he's an ornery siamese lol)...but because I taught it from puppyhood that they can't mess with the cat (aggressively) I have never had to give corrections for the cat. Sounds like your dog is too big, way too interested, and you need to start introducing stronger corrections. If done right, I think one or two meaningful corrections on a pinch would show him he cannot kill the cat....but please do this with a trainer....teaching a dog to heal/sit/stay/down is one thing....but we are talking about your dog wanting to go after another animal....not tolerated in my house, and corrections would be given if it turned into this for some reason. 

I watched an extremely cat/dog aggressive pitbull do stellar obedience with a cat around...because his owner introduced corrections for attention to the cat. It was neat because he brought the dog out to the field (it's a farm and a farm cat came around so they decided to take advantage of the opportunity) and the cat walked out. The dog became a different dog, lunging, barking, NO focus on owner. The TD took the line on the pinch (had two lines on the dog) and the dog got corrections for paying attention to the cat. The handler worked on obedience with the dog, and the dog got rewards for focus and obedience....only took a coupled of swift, well timed corrections for the dog to ignore the cat and focus on the handler. At the end the cat actually ran across the field and the dog looked at it(huge prey drive kicking in), and the DOG made the decision to ignore the cat and engage with his handler.....and we are talking about a dog that has killed cats before....one session and it was ignoring the cat. BUT the handler had a 25+year trainer working with him.....so the timing and strength of the corrections was what it needed to be, not too little not too much....that's why someone experienced being there is so important.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> My dogs get corrections for whining in their crates. When we are out at training/tracking fields, they have to be calm and quiet in their crates. My GSD used to whine like crazy because he was so excited to train....but it was also accompanied by stress-yawning and anxiety (he was very needy). To fix it my TD had me put his crate in the middle of the family room and crate him periodically throughout the day, while we were home and doing things around the house. He was crate trained already, but really the only time he was in a crate was when we weren't home or at night. So I had to teach him that he also had to behave when we were around. He got a stern "knock it off" and if he still didn't stop I'd shake the cage door and say "knock it off." If you are using the spray bottle, I would be correcting him for all that whining and carrying on....it only took a day/day and a half of the periodic crating and corrections for him to be completely obedient in the crate. I am sure there are other ways to do this, but it worked for me, didn't traumatize the dog lol, and it was fast....I am all about fast training...I think it's better for the dog and me...like I said a while ago, I feel that if the dog isn't getting it fast enough then I need to try something else. I don't like trying the same thing over and over and over again, if you watch, most dogs completely lose interest...and I want training to always be a fun, fluid, thing, and I want to always be moving forward.


I also need a fast solution. I have to be able to leave him alone. He's so freaking anxious, I should take a pic of what he did to the floor. 

I'm not mad at him but I want to make sure he's not miserable. I can't believe there will ever be a time that he won't big out when I come home. 

I'd rather not spray, not my thing. I will try your way first. 


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## DaniFani

haha, I am re-reading my responses and I seem like a correction-fool lol! I swear I actually rarely use corrections on my dog(s). If you teach them from puppyhood and are consistent, then you really (I think) don't need a ton of corrections. The problem I see with your dog is he really does whatever he wants and you are inconsistent with the training/corrections/rewards....sometimes he gets a correction for barking at the cat...sometimes he gets away with it....you need to be way more consistent and fun.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> The video with him barking at nothing:
> 
> I am just really seeing a dog that does whatever he wants. I think you're timing needs to be a lot better, and I would be correcting for the barking at nothing. You should be way more active and fun with him. I would make the whole time about obedience and focus. I'd be working on downs/sits/recalls. The one time you recalled him he completely blew you off and you let him blow you off, and then (I think) pulled him on the leash. That timing needs to be better, recall him, if he doesn't come immediately I would give him a correction (pop pop on the leash), as soon as he turned towards me, I become the best thing in the world. Excitedly praising and treating. You want coming to you to be preferred and exciting and you want to block him blowing you off or going away from you, you have that long line on him, use it!  Anyway, I am sure more experienced trainers will be chiming in. This is just really basic stuff though, and I see a dog that just gets away with too much. I think* he can be a great dog, he just needs waaay more boundaries.


Perfect)))) this is what I'm looking for. 

OK him barking at nothing there are few sides to it. This time I let him go on so I can videotape it, I usually tell him to stop and redirect. 
If there was someone there I wouldn't let him bark at all, i'd redirect or correct if redirecting didn't work. 

However, when he's barking at nothing at 1am with no one in the park I get creeped out)))))) and I don't mind him barking all that much. So I'm conflicted. 



The come. I'm glad you noticed it. Yes, sometimes he will blow me off and that's what I was writing pages here about. I wasn't sure what to when he didn't come. How long to give him to come before pulling him to me, giving him treats for coming even though I had to pull him. 

So what would you do if you said come? How long do you wait? What do you do then? Do you treat after having to pull him (I thought the point was for them to be rewarded for coming no matter what happened before that, even if I had to pull him all the way). 

I know that at some point when he knows what come means I will correct for not complying but we are far away from that. 

He just learned the command a few weeks ago. 


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> haha, I am re-reading my responses and I seem like a correction-fool lol! I swear I actually rarely use corrections on my dog(s). If you teach them from puppyhood and are consistent, then you really (I think) don't need a ton of corrections. The problem I see with your dog is he really does whatever he wants and you are inconsistent with the training/corrections/rewards....sometimes he gets a correction for barking at the cat...sometimes he gets away with it....you need to be way more consistent and fun.


Oh for sure. I'm def inconsistent. I'm working on it but not good enough yet. 

Unfortunately I didn't teach him from puppyhood, long story but I'm just beginning to train him. 

And yeah, he's already strong, used to pulling and not listening and I'm stuck sometimes. 


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## DaniFani

I would really encourage you to get a crate. Even if it takes up a lot of space. My parents had a shepherd when they were really young that they waited until it was very large (over a year) to try a crate. And that dog could not be contained. You're guy may already be to this point, but that's why we crate from puppies....they learn at a younger/weaker age that they can't get out of the crate. So when they are big enough to actually rip the cage apart they don't try because they "believe" the cage will contain them....if that makes sense.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Oh, my dog would be getting a big correction for the barking/wanting to go after the cat. You have to really be careful, he can kill that cat. I would be teaching avoidance to the cats. Even though he isn't chasing the cat, all the barking and carrying on, he mine as well be chasing and killing the cat lol. My dogs are taught from puppies that they are to get along with the cat (and my cat would whoop the dogs if he had too...he's an ornery siamese lol)...but because I taught it from puppyhood that they can't mess with the cat (aggressively) I have never had to give corrections for the cat. Sounds like your dog is too big, way too interested, and you need to start introducing stronger corrections. If done right, I think one or two meaningful corrections on a pinch would show him he cannot kill the cat....but please do this with a trainer....teaching a dog to heal/sit/stay/down is one thing....but we are talking about your dog wanting to go after another animal....not tolerated in my house, and corrections would be given if it turned into this for some reason.
> 
> I watched an extremely cat/dog aggressive pitbull do stellar obedience with a cat around...because his owner introduced corrections for attention to the cat. It was neat because he brought the dog out to the field (it's a farm and a farm cat came around so they decided to take advantage of the opportunity) and the cat walked out. The dog became a different dog, lunging, barking, NO focus on owner. The TD took the line on the pinch (had two lines on the dog) and the dog got corrections for paying attention to the cat. The handler worked on obedience with the dog, and the dog got rewards for focus and obedience....only took a coupled of swift, well timed corrections for the dog to ignore the cat and focus on the handler. At the end the cat actually ran across the field and the dog looked at it(huge prey drive kicking in), and the DOG made the decision to ignore the cat and engage with his handler.....and we are talking about a dog that has killed cats before....one session and it was ignoring the cat. BUT the handler had a 25+year trainer working with him.....so the timing and strength of the corrections was what it needed to be, not too little not too much....that's why someone experienced being there is so important.


This is my big worry. That's why I can't leave him loose in the house, that's why someone is always watching him. I know he can kill him. 

Though my cat left battle scar on his nose. They both do their part. 
So yeah, correcting. I'm thinking of doing a few sessions with him, same thing we do outside, wait for him to focus, but instead of stuffing treats in his mouth I will pop the prong. 

I didn't introduce them correctly, everything that's going on is my fault. I wasn't sure whether I should correct or treat. I lean towards correcting as well. 


My cat starts fight with him too though, that's the problem. 


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> I would really encourage you to get a crate. Even if it takes up a lot of space. My parents had a shepherd when they were really young that they waited until it was very large (over a year) to try a crate. And that dog could not be contained. You're guy may already be to this point, but that's why we crate from puppies....they learn at a younger/weaker age that they can't get out of the crate. So when they are big enough to actually rip the cage apart they don't try because they "believe" the cage will contain them....if that makes sense.


It does make sense and i can find space. I can also get a crate that he can't destroy. 

However, his SA won't go away, he will just hurt himself trying to bust out. 

And I don't understand the benefit of it at this point. I have a place where he can be isolated and he won't get to the cats. 

What are you suggesting? I get a crate and do what? Like what will it solve and how?
I'm not arguing, I'm asking


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Perfect)))) this is what I'm looking for.
> 
> OK him barking at nothing there are few sides to it. This time I let him go on so I can videotape it, I usually tell him to stop and redirect.
> If there was someone there I wouldn't let him bark at all, i'd redirect or correct if redirecting didn't work.
> 
> However, when he's barking at nothing at 1am with no one in the park I get creeped out)))))) and I don't mind him barking all that much. So I'm conflicted.
> 
> 
> 
> The come. I'm glad you noticed it. Yes, sometimes he will blow me off and that's what I was writing pages here about. I wasn't sure what to when he didn't come. How long to give him to come before pulling him to me, giving him treats for coming even though I had to pull him.
> 
> So what would you do if you said come? How long do you wait? What do you do then? Do you treat after having to pull him (I thought the point was for them to be rewarded for coming no matter what happened before that, even if I had to pull him all the way).
> 
> I know that at some point when he knows what come means I will correct for not complying but we are far away from that.
> 
> He just learned the command a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You always need to be a wonderful place to "come" to. I would give the correction if he doesn't turn his attention to you immediately....give command, if you don't at least get a look, I would give him a pop pop for not complying, then as soon as you get attention say come again, be super happy, praise him for looking....ONLY block or correct if you doesn't look at you or continues ignoring you...if he's looking at you and not coming I would remain happy and repeat the command, but give him a little tug towards you...not a pop-correction, just a pull to get him moving towards you. But at this point he should be looking at you, see you are excited and want to play/reward, and head towards you....always treat when he gets to you and make a huge deal out of it praise wise....the only time my dog gets a correction on the long line is if his attention isn't on me or he is blowing me off...and the correction has to be right away when he isn't looking at you....at least this is what I do...someone may completely disagree with this method, but it's worked for me lol.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> It does make sense and i can find space. I can also get a crate that he can't destroy.
> 
> However, his SA won't go away, he will just hurt himself trying to bust out.
> 
> And I don't understand the benefit of it at this point. I have a place where he can be isolated and he won't get to the cats.
> 
> What are you suggesting? I get a crate and do what? Like what will it solve and how?
> I'm not arguing, I'm asking
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The crate should become a "safe place" for him...dogs are den animals, part of their anxiety can come from the fact that they have way too much space and that in and of itself makes them anxious. Crate training gives them a "safe" place, where they can't destroy your things or hurt themselves. Have you tried having him in a crate? And if so how long did you make him stay in. When my dogs are puppies if they cry in the crate they are allowed out to potty, and that's it....if they go out, don't go potty, and just want to play, then I know that they are fine, just don't want to be in the crate....and they are put back in the crate and just have to "cry it out." 

Now, is your dog truly anxious or is he just throwing a fit because he knows he will get what he wants if he does?....if he chews his own fur off, bites things until he bleeds, claws until he breaks nails, then you are talking about something beyond my experience level...but if he just whines, barks, and carries on...well, I think then you just have to be a little tougher on him and make him deal with being in the crate, only letting him out to go potty and then right back in. imo


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> You always need to be a wonderful place to "come" to. I would give the correction if he doesn't turn his attention to you immediately....give command, if you don't at least get a look, I would give him a pop pop for not complying, then as soon as you get attention say come again, be super happy, praise him for looking....ONLY block or correct if you doesn't look at you or continues ignoring you...if he's looking at you and not coming I would remain happy and repeat the command, but give him a little tug towards you...not a pop-correction, just a pull to get him moving towards you. But at this point he should be looking at you, see you are excited and want to play/reward, and head towards you....always treat when he gets to you and make a huge deal out of it praise wise....the only time my dog gets a correction on the long line is if his attention isn't on me or he is blowing me off...and the correction has to be right away when he isn't looking at you....at least this is what I do...someone may completely disagree with this method, but it's worked for me lol.


Can't wait to try this out tonight)))))) maybe I can post a 'new and updated come' some time later lolol


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> The crate should become a "safe place" for him...dogs are den animals, part of their anxiety can come from the fact that they have way too much space and that in and of itself makes them anxious. Crate training gives them a "safe" place, where they can't destroy your things or hurt themselves. Have you tried having him in a crate? And if so how long did you make him stay in. When my dogs are puppies if they cry in the crate they are allowed out to potty, and that's it....if they go out, don't go potty, and just want to play, then I know that they are fine, just don't want to be in the crate....and they are put back in the crate and just have to "cry it out."
> 
> Now, is your dog truly anxious or is he just throwing a fit because he knows he will get what he wants if he does?....if he chews his own fur off, bites things until he bleeds, claws until he breaks nails, then you are talking about something beyond my experience level...but if he just whines, barks, and carries on...well, I think then you just have to be a little tougher on him and make him deal with being in the crate, only letting him out to go potty and then right back in. imo



View attachment 115545


No, just tries to get to my door. I'd be very happy to know that he doesn't have true SA. 

I tried a crate for a few hours and gave up on it. I'm an idiot. 

However, he just calmed down and fell asleep in the hallway, I did what you said, didn't let him whine, kept going out of the room and back in and ignoring him and he just went to sleep. 


I can't afford a good crate now anyway, should I buy the wire one? I mean he's respecting that flimsy baby gate (the temp one to my room, not the stable one installed into the living room. 

I guess I was going to wait a week or 2 and see how this goes. If it doesn't them I will get the crate. 

I see what you're saying and I agree with it. If in a few weeks he still can't be left alone then I will crate train him. 


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## lalachka

The picture didn't work


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## MadLab

Can you afford a new cat,, joking

I would let the dog know the cat is untouchable.

The cat scratching the dog is probably the dog going to far so the cat had to defend itself. 

It comes down to discipline. You want it in some ways and you don't in others. It doesn't work like that though. You have to be consistent if you want the dog to respect you. 

You don't need the baby gate if the dog respects you and you tell him not to cross the line. It comes down to the owners discipline and what they expect and want from their dog sometimes.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> View attachment 115545
> 
> 
> No, just tries to get to my door. I'd be very happy to know that he doesn't have true SA.
> 
> I tried a crate for a few hours and gave up on it. I'm an idiot.
> 
> However, he just calmed down and fell asleep in the hallway, I did what you said, didn't let him whine, kept going out of the room and back in and ignoring him and he just went to sleep.
> 
> 
> I can't afford a good crate now anyway, should I buy the wire one? I mean he's respecting that flimsy baby gate (the temp one to my room, not the stable one installed into the living room.
> 
> I guess I was going to wait a week or 2 and see how this goes. If it doesn't them I will get the crate.
> 
> I see what you're saying and I agree with it. If in a few weeks he still can't be left alone then I will crate train him.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah, honestly the reason I question that he's "truly anxious" is because he respects that little gate...he could get over that in a second if he really was out of control (in his mind) with anxiety...so it led me to believe that he would do just fine in a crate, I think maybe you just gave in before he learned he had to stay in there. I wouldn't do a wire one, I'd do a plastic one like the one I linked below. That way if he does dig or chew, it won't be on metal....he can't really chew that plastic. I got my crates on craigslist for 20-30 bucks....just disinfected and cleaned out....silly to spend over $100 on a crate when you can get a used one super cheap, imo. 


Traditional Dog Crate - 1125385, Kennels - Houses at Sportsman's Guide


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## David Winners

Aren't you working with a trainer? Throwing multiple methods of training at the dog all at once is not going to get you anywhere.

I suggest you get off the internet and go train your dog in the manner in which your trainer had instructed you. You said before things were working. It will take time.

Your going to dig a deeper hole with your dog if you're not consistent.

JMHO

David Winners


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## JakodaCD OA

I'll tell you my opinion of what I saw in the videos. (I agree with Dani on alot of stuff).

The park video, he's barking like he's "announcing" himself. He doesn't look scared, he doesn't look aggressive, he woofed afew times..What I DID NOT see , was you PRAISING him when you would call him to come to you and he did..Now whether it was because you were videoing as well, maybe..

BUT, Every time that dog comes to you, I would be having a party, treat/Praise, GOOD BOY!!! PET HIM,,GOOD BOY.. sure you gave him a treat, big deal, he took it, he wasn't enthusiastic about it..Not to be insulting, but you were boring..Think of it from his point of view, why should he come? cause he's getting a treat? OK, thats good, but it looks like no big deal to him..you needto ENGAGE him more.

2nd video, he's a typical dog that sees you sitting there, he's behind a gate, he's not "with" you..Looks like he WANTS to be with you...Honestly, I'd lock the cat up in a room so HE can be closer to YOU..He doesn't look SA, he looks a little anxious and frustrated that he's on one side and your on the other..

3rd with the cat,,Again, you said nothing, nothing that would tell him this is NOT acceptable..You need to give him a VERBAL as well as physical correction,,LEAVE IT which means just that LEAVE IT< DON"T TOUCH IT..as soon as he redirects..treat/praise GOOD BOY..

I agree with the crate, You need to speak to him more, don't just toss him a treat cause he did something 'good',,SPEAK to him,,GOOD BOY.. You don't have to carry on a conversation with him,,just work on your VERBAL commands..and MEAN IT..Engage with him more, physically..

Just my opinion


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> Aren't you working with a trainer? Throwing multiple methods of training at the dog all at once is not going to get you anywhere.
> 
> I suggest you get off the internet and go train your dog in the manner in which your trainer had instructed you. You said before things were working. It will take time.
> 
> Your going to dig a deeper hole with your dog if you're not consistent.
> 
> JMHO
> 
> David Winners


Only for aggression. We didn't do anything else except address the lunging and barking. 

I will sign up for for her classes as well but I can't do another private session for a month or so. 


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----------



## JakodaCD OA

I agree with David as well, CONSISTENTCY is key. Reading all these "methods" by this person and that person, is getting you nowhere unless you apply those methods or train with them personally. 

He does not look like a bad dog, he looks like he could be alot of fun to train, but unless you really start buckling down and DOING it, he is going to be one messed up mutt again just my opinion


----------



## lalachka

MadLab said:


> Can you afford a new cat,, joking
> 
> I would let the dog know the cat is untouchable.
> 
> The cat scratching the dog is probably the dog going to far so the cat had to defend itself.
> 
> It comes down to discipline. You want it in some ways and you don't in others. It doesn't work like that though. You have to be consistent if you want the dog to respect you.
> 
> You don't need the baby gate if the dog respects you and you tell him not to cross the line. It comes down to the owners discipline and what they expect and want from their dog sometimes.


The baby gates are there in preparation of him staying alone. 

We used to lock him in that hallway but with no gates, just close all doors. And he'd scratch the floor (I don't care about the floor, I can replace the planks, I care about him hurting himself and the level of anxiety it must take to do this)


So a few days ago I put up the gates and started getting him used to staying in there. I then walk in and out of the room, out of his sight. 


Yes, the cats. The dog and the cat have a few months of history, i let it go too far. Only one of the cats, the other he just wants to play with. 

I will start correcting him for looking at the cats. I remember Frawley saying that as well, don't even let him look at the cat. Not sure why I haven't done that. 


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## Blanketback

The videos aren't loading properly for me, and the last one won't work at all, but I can offer some ideas. Take this for what it is: just my observations, on how I'd do things differently - it doesn't mean you're wrong, lol! But....when you're saying "come" in the first one, that's the tone I use for "no" - short, brisque, stern - where's the fun? And when he's coming, you're not offering any praise (that I could hear anyways) and I'm all about verbal praise. When my dog starts coming to me (especially in your case, when he's just learning) I act like my boss just doubled my paycheck. *YAY!* Good Boy!

I was expecting to see some really crazy stuff, lol. I thought by the way you were talking about him, he'd be jumping up and down, with his fur up, and barking in a frenzy. Big "Bahwoowoowoo!" instead of the "woof woof" stuff. He sounds bored, like he's asking if anyone else is hanging around, lol. 

Speaking of bored, he really needs something to do in that hallway - he's whining and he needs to have something to do besides pace. Even putting a dog bed near the gate and teaching him stay on it would be better than just leaving him to do nothing. Get him a beef knuckle bone, give him a special place, and let him chew it there quietly. 

Nothing in your videos show a terrible dog, lol - I really like him! He's doing very well for an untrained dog, IMO. Maybe you're thinking everyone has perfect little robot dogs? LOL! Give this little guy a chance! You've only just started working with him, and just started with a trainer - don't be so hard on both of you. I don't think you have to lower your expectations of what you'd like to see, but be realistic in what you can achieve when you're just starting out. Good luck!

And, this is super picky I know: but that ME marker thing ("Yessssssssss") doesn't make sense to me when you live with cats. That "ssssssss" sound means "You're going to lose an eye if you don't back off!" IDK, I'd do something different. I'm sure the dog is smart enough to know the difference, but why not make it even easier. I know, I said it was super picky of me.....


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Yeah, honestly the reason I question that he's "truly anxious" is because he respects that little gate...he could get over that in a second if he really was out of control (in his mind) with anxiety...so it led me to believe that he would do just fine in a crate, I think maybe you just gave in before he learned he had to stay in there. I wouldn't do a wire one, I'd do a plastic one like the one I linked below. That way if he does dig or chew, it won't be on metal....he can't really chew that plastic. I got my crates on craigslist for 20-30 bucks....just disinfected and cleaned out....silly to spend over $100 on a crate when you can get a used one super cheap, imo.
> 
> 
> Traditional Dog Crate - 1125385, Kennels - Houses at Sportsman's Guide


This is a crate????? I had the extra large wire crate from petco. Omg I have space for this in my bedroom for sure!!!!

It looks so small. He will hate it. 

I def gave up way too soon. 10 mins or so lol. 

He respects the gate when I'm home. I don't think he would if I left but I'm about to test that. 


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----------



## JakodaCD OA

you need to stop taking the advice of frawley (no disrespect intended) regarding cats, it's not written in stone...he can look at the cats, he can interact with the cats, its "HOW" he looks at the cats, if you think he's giving them the evil eye, THEN correct it,before it escalates,again LEAVE IT, is a good command,, 

I just don't see you giving him clear direction/commands/correction so yes, he's gonna do whatever cause he hasn't been taught it's not acceptable.

It's what works for a particular dog, not set in stone with anything..what's going to work for 'your' dog..

a wire crate would be fine, do you have any Ocean State Job Lots near you? Crates are on sale this week, the biggest one, is like 55 bucks if not less. Double doors as well


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## Sookie

lalachka said:


> The baby gates are there in preparation of him staying alone.
> 
> We used to lock him in that hallway but with no gates, just close all doors. And he'd scratch the floor (I don't care about the floor, I can replace the planks, I care about him hurting himself and the level of anxiety it must take to do this)
> 
> 
> So a few days ago I put up the gates and started getting him used to staying in there. I then walk in and out of the room, out of his sight.
> 
> 
> Yes, the cats. The dog and the cat have a few months of history, i let it go too far. Only one of the cats, the other he just wants to play with.
> 
> I will start correcting him for looking at the cats. I remember Frawley saying that as well, don't even let him look at the cat. Not sure why I haven't done that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Instead of correcting him for looking at the cat, could you try rewarding him for *not* looking? If he looks at the cat, call his name, make a noise, whatever - when he looks at you, click and treat, tell him down, click and treat. So the cat being around is a great thing to him - as long as he is looking at you and obeying you. This is working really well for me and Sookie and our 4 cats. A lot of training advice I have seen suggests that correcting around the cats can rev the dog up and give it very bad associations with the cat. (Obviously if the dog is about to hurt the cat that is different, but don't let it get to this point, do the click and treat for focusing on you when it is impossible for the dog to get to the cat - I use a series of baby gates). Good luck! (I'm no expert, just going through the same thing myself for the third time  )


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll tell you my opinion of what I saw in the videos. (I agree with Dani on alot of stuff).
> 
> The park video, he's barking like he's "announcing" himself. He doesn't look scared, he doesn't look aggressive, he woofed afew times..What I DID NOT see , was you PRAISING him when you would call him to come to you and he did..Now whether it was because you were videoing as well, maybe..
> 
> BUT, Every time that dog comes to you, I would be having a party, treat/Praise, GOOD BOY!!! PET HIM,,GOOD BOY.. sure you gave him a treat, big deal, he took it, he wasn't enthusiastic about it..Not to be insulting, but you were boring..Think of it from his point of view, why should he come? cause he's getting a treat? OK, thats good, but it looks like no big deal to him..you needto ENGAGE him more.
> 
> 2nd video, he's a typical dog that sees you sitting there, he's behind a gate, he's not "with" you..Looks like he WANTS to be with you...Honestly, I'd lock the cat up in a room so HE can be closer to YOU..He doesn't look SA, he looks a little anxious and frustrated that he's on one side and your on the other..
> 
> 3rd with the cat,,Again, you said nothing, nothing that would tell him this is NOT acceptable..You need to give him a VERBAL as well as physical correction,,LEAVE IT which means just that LEAVE IT< DON"T TOUCH IT..as soon as he redirects..treat/praise GOOD BOY..
> 
> I agree with the crate, You need to speak to him more, don't just toss him a treat cause he did something 'good',,SPEAK to him,,GOOD BOY.. You don't have to carry on a conversation with him,,just work on your VERBAL commands..and MEAN IT..Engage with him more, physically..
> 
> Just my opinion


Lol you're not being mean. I've said myself that I'm having a problem being more exciting than all the smells and sticks out there. 

I do praise him sometimes and throw a party, sometimes I just give him a treat. I m in space most of the time, that's not helping the training at all. 

The trainer caught me giving him treats. She's like why are you treating him? Nothing is happening. I didn't realize in was doing it. I zoned out as usual. 

So yeah, I have many obstacles))))) I'm trying


The cat thing. I've yelled NOOOOOO so many times, I've yelled, then popped him, then pinched him. In the months of this going on I've done everything I can think of. 

So at this point when he does it i just catch myself looking at it, like duh-duh. 

And him sitting behind the gate. I should lock my cat where? I didn't get that. 

And I do talk to him a lot))))) I just didn't want to excite him while he was behind there, anytime I say our words he gets all excited and wants to come lick me. 

I was trying to keep him calm. 

I'm just explaining my reasoning, not saying I'm right in what I'm doing 


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----------



## David Winners

So you're treating your dog when looking at strangers to get past aggression, but you're going to correct your dog on a prong to deal with the same issue with the cat.

Do you see the conflict in this? 

I feel like you want to try everything everyone writes here. You can not accomplish anything that way except confusing your dog. 

You should be working on basic stuff. Focus. Obedience without distraction. Being sure the lines of communication are open in both directions. Engagement. Crate games. All fun stuff. You have lived this long without dealing with these behaviors. Don't try and deal with them all at once. Slow down. Develop a foundation. Without that, you don't stand a chance of anything sticking.

Crazy...

David Winners


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## Sookie

JakodaCD OA said:


> you need to stop taking the advice of frawley (no disrespect intended) regarding cats, it's not written in stone...he can look at the cats, he can interact with the cats, its "HOW" he looks at the cats, if you think he's giving them the evil eye, THEN correct it,before it escalates,again LEAVE IT, is a good command,,
> 
> I just don't see you giving him clear direction/commands/correction so yes, he's gonna do whatever cause he hasn't been taught it's not acceptable.
> 
> It's what works for a particular dog, not set in stone with anything..what's going to work for 'your' dog..
> 
> a wire crate would be fine, do you have any Ocean State Job Lots near you? Crates are on sale this week, the biggest one, is like 55 bucks if not less. Double doors as well


Yes! - when I say "not looking at the cats" this is really what I mean! I can tell when Sookie first looked at the cats with a hard stare which was when I was much more focused on getting her to turn her head away etc. Now when she looks at them it's more curious or "oh, hello," and so I let her look and click treat when she lays down and relaxes - at that point looking is fine because she clearly is not wanting to attack or play roughly. Again, it helps to be flexible and read your animals and see what is coming; the more you play and work with them the more you can read them and stop unwanted behaviour before it happens. If she gets up and acts like she is about to bow and whine at them, I excitedly call her to me and play tug with her and she forgets about them. Hope this helps; it is not hopeless, your pup looks very sweet.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with David as well, CONSISTENTCY is key. Reading all these "methods" by this person and that person, is getting you nowhere unless you apply those methods or train with them personally.
> 
> He does not look like a bad dog, he looks like he could be alot of fun to train, but unless you really start buckling down and DOING it, he is going to be one messed up mutt again just my opinion


He's amazing!!!! A really good dog, I see it myself and I had every trainer tell me that. It's all my fault, I'm trying but i do really suck at it))))))

I always have a million toys with us outside and most of the time I can engage him but sometimes I can't. 

I will ask my friend to tape what we do tonight. Last night I went out way too late, no one was there. 


As far as the trainer, I wish I can afford to pay someone to come here twice a week so she can see all these things, see what I do and tell me what I'm doing wrong. 

I can't. So I hired her for the most pressing issues. I'm on my own with the rest for now. 


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## lalachka

David Winners said:


> So you're treating your dog when looking at strangers to get past aggression, but you're going to correct your dog on a prong to deal with the same issue with the cat.
> 
> Do you see the conflict in this?
> 
> I feel like you want to try everything everyone writes here. You can not accomplish anything that way except confusing your dog.
> 
> You should be working on basic stuff. Focus. Obedience without distraction. Being sure the lines of communication are open in both directions. Engagement. Crate games. All fun stuff. You have lived this long without dealing with these behaviors. Don't try and deal with them all at once. Slow down. Develop a foundation. Without that, you don't stand a chance of anything sticking.
> 
> Crazy...
> 
> David Winners


I do see the conflict but at the same time I have a problem. One day one of us doesn't watch him and either my cat takes his eye out in defense or he kills the cat. 


What I was doing before was giving him treats every time the cat came in. That was working. I might keep doing that. Or I might do a mix. 

What you're missing is that I'm getting ideas. I will then think which way I want to go. 
What's with the hostility?


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----------



## JakodaCD OA

that's fine, (your reasoning) I though maybe you were being quiet because you were videoing..

I' was saying, can you lock your cats up for a time, say in your bedroom or somewhere, so HE can have more house freedom..or maybe he does have more house freedom, and you were just showing us what he does in the video when he's babygated off?? 

I think you have to get yourself into the mindset that you are going to train this dog, and stop zoning out, and do it..you can't just praise sometimes/throw a party sometimes, it has to be all the time right now..Training a dog like him, at this age, because time is ticking, is ALL the time..Sitting around, call him to you, have do 'something',,sit/down, whatever,,you train him all the time,,when your feeding, he sits before he gets it..and PRAISE...

I think if you get yourself out of the 'zone', and be more determined and consistent you will find it pretty darn easy.

I don't use the word "no", to me it's 'nagging"..so I use a LEAVE IT, for alot of things.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> you need to stop taking the advice of frawley (no disrespect intended) regarding cats, it's not written in stone...he can look at the cats, he can interact with the cats, its "HOW" he looks at the cats, if you think he's giving them the evil eye, THEN correct it,before it escalates,again LEAVE IT, is a good command,,
> 
> I just don't see you giving him clear direction/commands/correction so yes, he's gonna do whatever cause he hasn't been taught it's not acceptable.
> 
> It's what works for a particular dog, not set in stone with anything..what's going to work for 'your' dog..
> 
> a wire crate would be fine, do you have any Ocean State Job Lots near you? Crates are on sale this week, the biggest one, is like 55 bucks if not less. Double doors as well


I can get it for under 100$ at petco. So I should? The hallway is a bad idea, gates off and all? I already put so much effort into it lol I wanted to see what happens out of it. 


Why not take Frawley's advice lol? He makes sense with most things. His dogs get along with cats. He must be doing something right. 

I have to think about this. I have a 2nd cat who he's not mean to and still, he makes her uncomfortable sometimes because he wants to play. I'd be OK with them just ignoring each other. He gets excited and out of control with her. 


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----------



## JakodaCD OA

I do agree with David..(again Concentrate on one thing, work it until it works. Be consistent.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

If you think the hallway will work that's fine, but I would put something in there for him to do,a kong, a bone, 'something',,and maybe a dog bed like one suggested.

I'm not saying to not take Frawleys advice, your "not" taking frawleys advice, your reading about it but your not "doing" it, and if you are , it's not working. Why read all these 'things' if your not implementing them...to me, your reading about all this stuff, but it's time wasted when you should be "doing" something with the dog..

If he gets along with one cat, keep him on a leash, and as one suggested, redirect, when he's ignoring the cat, TREAT AND PRAISE HIM!..


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> The videos aren't loading properly for me, and the last one won't work at all, but I can offer some ideas. Take this for what it is: just my observations, on how I'd do things differently - it doesn't mean you're wrong, lol! But....when you're saying "come" in the first one, that's the tone I use for "no" - short, brisque, stern - where's the fun? And when he's coming, you're not offering any praise (that I could hear anyways) and I'm all about verbal praise. When my dog starts coming to me (especially in your case, when he's just learning) I act like my boss just doubled my paycheck. *YAY!* Good Boy!
> 
> I was expecting to see some really crazy stuff, lol. I thought by the way you were talking about him, he'd be jumping up and down, with his fur up, and barking in a frenzy. Big "Bahwoowoowoo!" instead of the "woof woof" stuff. He sounds bored, like he's asking if anyone else is hanging around, lol.
> 
> Speaking of bored, he really needs something to do in that hallway - he's whining and he needs to have something to do besides pace. Even putting a dog bed near the gate and teaching him stay on it would be better than just leaving him to do nothing. Get him a beef knuckle bone, give him a special place, and let him chew it there quietly.
> 
> Nothing in your videos show a terrible dog, lol - I really like him! He's doing very well for an untrained dog, IMO. Maybe you're thinking everyone has perfect little robot dogs? LOL! Give this little guy a chance! You've only just started working with him, and just started with a trainer - don't be so hard on both of you. I don't think you have to lower your expectations of what you'd like to see, but be realistic in what you can achieve when you're just starting out. Good luck!
> 
> And, this is super picky I know: but that ME marker thing ("Yessssssssss") doesn't make sense to me when you live with cats. That "ssssssss" sound means "You're going to lose an eye if you don't back off!" IDK, I'd do something different. I'm sure the dog is smart enough to know the difference, but why not make it even easier. I know, I said it was super picky of me.....


I'm smiling reading this, especially the yessssss. I got that from Ellis videos. I'm soft spoken, I don't know if my regular yes would stand out to him. So I was trying to make a distinct sound. I don't like it myself. 


He's very good, I love him, he's the cutest thing and the best dog I know!!!!!
However, to be real. When he barks and lunges at people or kids it does look horrifying. I wouldn't be taping that, I'm too busy trying to contain him. So I'm just being real. 

I'm glad to hear he's not as bad as I thought. I'd rather think worst and be happy later than the other way around. 

In the hallway, maybe you can see it, he has a bully stick, 2 balls and a frisby. 
Any toys are only allowed in the hallway. 

And yes, reading here I was under the impression everyone has perfectly trained dogs))))))))


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## lalachka

Sookie said:


> Instead of correcting him for looking at the cat, could you try rewarding him for *not* looking? If he looks at the cat, call his name, make a noise, whatever - when he looks at you, click and treat, tell him down, click and treat. So the cat being around is a great thing to him - as long as he is looking at you and obeying you. This is working really well for me and Sookie and our 4 cats. A lot of training advice I have seen suggests that correcting around the cats can rev the dog up and give it very bad associations with the cat. (Obviously if the dog is about to hurt the cat that is different, but don't let it get to this point, do the click and treat for focusing on you when it is impossible for the dog to get to the cat - I use a series of baby gates). Good luck! (I'm no expert, just going through the same thing myself for the third time  )


That's what I did and it worked. I gave him a treat anytime he ignored the cat. One day I picked up the bag of treats and he looked at the door expecting the cat. So I know he formed the connection. 

However, a few hours later he lunged again. I'm being impatient, I know but I can't help it. 

Anytime I see something working and then when I see that he's back doing the wrong thing I get discouraged. I start thinking that this method will never work because it was going so perfect and look what happened. 

I wish there was a time table for these things. Do this for 2 weeks and it works. Otherwise it's discouraging for me to see the setbacks


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## lalachka

OK, thank you everyone. Off to the park to try the ideas. 

I realize everything I'm doing wrong but I spent 39 years spacing out and it's very hard to stop spacing out in a few days. 

However, I see some of my problems and hopefully I will be able to fix them. 

It really helped getting the feedback, like that I'm boring, don't praise enough, have him way too long to come and so on. 

I don't see these things even looking at the videos, outside eyes really help. 


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> If you think the hallway will work that's fine, but I would put something in there for him to do,a kong, a bone, 'something',,and maybe a dog bed like one suggested.
> 
> I'm not saying to not take Frawleys advice, your "not" taking frawleys advice, your reading about it but your not "doing" it, and if you are , it's not working. Why read all these 'things' if your not implementing them...to me, your reading about all this stuff, but it's time wasted when you should be "doing" something with the dog..
> 
> If he gets along with one cat, keep him on a leash, and as one suggested, redirect, when he's ignoring the cat, TREAT AND PRAISE HIM!..


He has things in there, I didn't realize you can't see them. No dog bed, he destroyed 3 and cats peed on them too lol

They just love each other. 

I can buy one more but he likes the floor, maybe because it's cool. Back when he was allowed on my bed he'd always go on the floor after a few mins. 


Lol I took some of his advice, some of it sticks until I decide on it. 

I did think it was mean to correct him for just looking so I just remembered it as an option. 


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> I do see the conflict but at the same time I have a problem. One day one of us doesn't watch him and either my cat takes his eye out in defense or he kills the cat.
> 
> 
> What I was doing before was giving him treats every time the cat came in. That was working. I might keep doing that. Or I might do a mix.
> 
> What you're missing is that I'm getting ideas. I will then think which way I want to go.
> What's with the hostility?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


First off, how is this hostile? No all caps, exclamation points, threats, bashing or name calling. If you took it as hostile, I apologize. It was not meant in that way whatsoever.

Secondly, I guess this advice is worth every penny you paid for it.

Sincerely, best of luck.

David Winners


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## Blanketback

I didn't see the toys in the hallway, but balls and frisbees are interactive toys - you have to be involved with the dog for them to be fun. Actually, the frisbee is really something that should be put away - they can chew it up and that's dangerous! I suggested a real bone because they'll sit there and chew it so you can praise them for staying there quietly, lol. And when you teach them to stay on their place, it gives them something to do - they can focus on that command, instead of just pacing around. Maybe a 'buster cube' would be a good toy for him to play with too - although you definitely need a runner carpet down first, it'll be a heck of a noise on that flooring, lol. 

I almost killed myself laughing, picturing you videotaping him lunging at people. LOL! What would be going through peoples' minds, while their absolutely petrified, and you're just patiently filming it all? Too funny! Good thing you're passing on that one.


----------



## Baillif

For now you should manage your dog better. You need a crate. Make sure it is big enough for him to lay down in and turn around in but you want it snug for his adult size. Keeping them from moving around a whole lot helps keep their stress levels low. A carrying travel style crate would work fine. Don't just use babygates your dog will be able to jump over them. Mine can already jump a 3 and a half foot baby gate at 6.5 months old granted he is half malinois.

Whenever your dog is out and about when you are not around your dog is learning things. Maybe things you don't want him learning. Manage him so that he learns what you want him to learn when he is with you. Once you have him managed you can work with him on a schedule to get what you need out of him. Afterall you only have so many play sessions/food feeding sessions in a dog during the day so you have to set goals on what you want to work on and have a plan on how to do it.

Many of us don't have completely behaved trained dogs and at this stage Zebu isn't an exception to this. 

I just changed up the way I'm playing with him because there was too much of an element of keep away in his retrieve and tug sessions because hes been using a delay tactic as our sessions were getting too long and he was getting tired, and he was starting to pace himself and develop habits I didn't like. So I broke his play sessions into much smaller chunks of time with a travel crate nearby. If he checked out or tried to delay on me I would end the game and crate him for 5-10 minutes let him rest up and try again. Didn't take him long to figure out if he wanted to keep the game going he better bring the toy back **** quick and with energy, and that no matter what he did the game wouldn't last that long so he could just leave it all out there on the field. 

He's also finally doing prong collar leash pressure training for his competition heeling learning to cave to pressure immediately and this is now the only way he eats for a few days. I may start playing tug with him on his prong and lead just so I can block him from making the wrong decisions if he should try to go do his own thing if we go somewhere with a lot of distractions.

Earlier today when I was taking him out to go to the bathroom he saw a trashbag on the sidewalk couldn't identify it and started barking at it and I had to walk over and sit on it to let him know it was ok to approach and no threat.

Problems will constantly pop up with every new dog. It's about management of the problems according to goals you set up. You can avert disaster with the cats through management as you work to solve the problem in a steady consistent way.

PS. Don't just leave toys laying around for the puppy to mess with and find value in away from you. Especially if you plan on using those toys as rewards for behaviors later. Give em raw beef or pork bones or deer antlers to keep em busy with something to chew. The hallway thing is just not a good idea. Get a crate.


----------



## DaniFani

I guess I was just responding to what *I* would do in the videos that you posted. And what has worked for *me*. I do think you are taking a lot of methods and trying to do to much at once. I agree with everyone else, especially about the engagement and being "fun." And don't worry, my TD yells at me to be more fun all the time.

The thing about what *I* would do (at the advise of someone more experienced), is that I am pretty consistent in my expectations, praise, type of reward, and "how" I correct. It's similar for everything that he isn't supposed to do. And consistency is more than how you train, it's keeping the same expectation for rules and manners no matter where you are. My dog has to "down" no matter where we are....and in the beginning (after he knew the command) any break of the down got a correction. I remember first starting with my training director and when the dog broke the down I just gave the command again...my TD was like, "what'd you just teach him? You need to correct, give the command again, and after he holds it, release him and give tons of praise and reward. The command isn't a correction." And here I was yelling "down" over and over again (and I hate people that say the command 15 times to get their dog to do something lol). So I became consistent in my expectations (hold the down until I released it) and that he had to do it anywhere under any distraction....and I have great, reliable "downs" now. But again, this is something that worked for *me*, and I am using the same TD for everything. It's the only way I remain consistent, I trust my trainer, and unless they do something morally questionable, I will follow the methods as long as they work. 

I can imagine how frustrating it would be for my dog if I tried different ways of doing things for every new command. I found methods that seem to be working (proofed under high distraction)....but I also have a very experienced person, in real life, watching, critiquing, and offering advice. 

I guess in all this mumbo gumbo what I'm trying to say is I agree with Winners. You should really stick with your trainer, focus on whatever ground work she told you to build and go from the ground up....being consistent....if you don't want him to charge/bark at the cats, you need to be on top of it EVERY time, not just every once in a while....if you don't want him whining in a crate/cordoned off area...you need to be on top of every whine/bark/carrying on....don't let him keep doing something inappropriate because it's "cute" or because he's getting a "break" from training (not specifcally meant for you, but I know friends that are inconsistent like this and don't have consistent obedience because of the unclear boundaries). And every opportunity to reinforce something should be taken advantage of. REinforcement doesn't HAVE to be treats, if my dog is in the house and I recall him with a "here" and he comes, I verbally praise him and give a good belly scratch....yeah, he may have only come from the family room to the bedroom, but he listened and gets rewarded for that. All food, affection, play, etc...should be worked for (NILIF). But, again, that's something that needs to be started from the ground up. 

Just pick one thing and work on it....man I rambled on here...hope it all makes sense lol.


----------



## lalachka

I really wanted to crop some of it out lol but I didn't. 

Waiting to be ripped apart))))))
Seriously though, I don't mind. My COMEs were much better today thanks to you guys

http://youtu.be/YrDViUSluIE

I'm uploading 2 more videos but they're even worse quality


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## lalachka

David Winners said:


> First off, how is this hostile? No all caps, exclamation points, threats, bashing or name calling. If you took it as hostile, I apologize. It was not meant in that way whatsoever.
> 
> Secondly, I guess this advice is worth every penny you paid for it.
> 
> Sincerely, best of luck.
> 
> David Winners



The 'crazy' part. 

And saying that I should stick to my trainer as if I'm not. 

We only worked on one thing, aggression. I'm not asking anyone's advice on aggression, hers is working for me. 

But I still have other problems that i'd like solved. 


As far as advice being worth it. You mean I got free advice so it will be useless? Maybe, maybe not. 

Some things already helped. Many things from before helped. 
I don't understand what's so bad about me reading and asking questions. 

I keep saying that I need much more training than my dog. I have to learn techniques before I can teach him anything. My way of learning is reading and asking questions. 

I was never a school person, everything I know I learned by messing with it and asking questions. That's what works for me. 


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> I didn't see the toys in the hallway, but balls and frisbees are interactive toys - you have to be involved with the dog for them to be fun. Actually, the frisbee is really something that should be put away - they can chew it up and that's dangerous! I suggested a real bone because they'll sit there and chew it so you can praise them for staying there quietly, lol. And when you teach them to stay on their place, it gives them something to do - they can focus on that command, instead of just pacing around. Maybe a 'buster cube' would be a good toy for him to play with too - although you definitely need a runner carpet down first, it'll be a heck of a noise on that flooring, lol.
> 
> I almost killed myself laughing, picturing you videotaping him lunging at people. LOL! What would be going through peoples' minds, while their absolutely petrified, and you're just patiently filming it all? Too funny! Good thing you're passing on that one.


I was saving the bones, longs and treat balls for when I leave that way he has something amazing coming to him. 

He's actually doing pretty well. I don't want to jinx it but much better than I thought. 


Lolol, I didn't think about it but you had me cracking up myself picturing that)))))))) thank you)))))))


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----------



## lalachka

He has a bully stick in there. I was saving all the good things (bones, kongs, treat balls) for when I have to leave. He has a bully stick to chew on. 

Since I already spent all this energy on setting up the hallway I was going to see how it goes for a few weeks. So far it's going better than I thought but I haven't had to leave him alone yet. 

I know he can jump the gates, he can break them too. He can also pop out of the crate. I've been trying to teach him to stay off the gates and so far so good (don't want to jinx anything). 

I've been trying to do leash pressure too and it's not going to well. I'm having a problem catching the moment that he gives in. 

Also, at the same time I've been doing this thing where everytime he pulls we make a I turn and walk back a few steps and them another u turn. 
Almost the same problem. I'm having trouble catching when he's pulling. Also, how much of a pull to consider a pull. 

Any pointers?


As far as don't leave toys around, what do you mean? What is he supposed to do in there? All the toys are always put away except the hallway. He can only have toys in the hallway. How else can I make him want to stay there (or the crate if I end up having to buy one). 

What's wrong with having toys in the crate?





Baillif said:


> For now you should manage your dog better. You need a crate. Make sure it is big enough for him to lay down in and turn around in but you want it snug for his adult size. Keeping them from moving around a whole lot helps keep their stress levels low. A carrying travel style crate would work fine. Don't just use babygates your dog will be able to jump over them. Mine can already jump a 3 and a half foot baby gate at 6.5 months old granted he is half malinois.
> 
> Whenever your dog is out and about when you are not around your dog is learning things. Maybe things you don't want him learning. Manage him so that he learns what you want him to learn when he is with you. Once you have him managed you can work with him on a schedule to get what you need out of him. Afterall you only have so many play sessions/food feeding sessions in a dog during the day so you have to set goals on what you want to work on and have a plan on how to do it.
> 
> Many of us don't have completely behaved trained dogs and at this stage Zebu isn't an exception to this.
> 
> I just changed up the way I'm playing with him because there was too much of an element of keep away in his retrieve and tug sessions because hes been using a delay tactic as our sessions were getting too long and he was getting tired, and he was starting to pace himself and develop habits I didn't like. So I broke his play sessions into much smaller chunks of time with a travel crate nearby. If he checked out or tried to delay on me I would end the game and crate him for 5-10 minutes let him rest up and try again. Didn't take him long to figure out if he wanted to keep the game going he better bring the toy back **** quick and with energy, and that no matter what he did the game wouldn't last that long so he could just leave it all out there on the field.
> 
> He's also finally doing prong collar leash pressure training for his competition heeling learning to cave to pressure immediately and this is now the only way he eats for a few days. I may start playing tug with him on his prong and lead just so I can block him from making the wrong decisions if he should try to go do his own thing if we go somewhere with a lot of distractions.
> 
> Earlier today when I was taking him out to go to the bathroom he saw a trashbag on the sidewalk couldn't identify it and started barking at it and I had to walk over and sit on it to let him know it was ok to approach and no threat.
> 
> Problems will constantly pop up with every new dog. It's about management of the problems according to goals you set up. You can avert disaster with the cats through management as you work to solve the problem in a steady consistent way.
> 
> PS. Don't just leave toys laying around for the puppy to mess with and find value in away from you. Especially if you plan on using those toys as rewards for behaviors later. Give em raw beef or pork bones or deer antlers to keep em busy with something to chew. The hallway thing is just not a good idea. Get a crate.





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----------



## lalachka

What do you mean? I'm not getting defensive or offended by anything you said. I AM boring lol, I feel it many times when we are out. You didn't tell me anything new, just reminded)))))

I was looking for critique, so whatever you see is fine. 

Thank you for the DOWN example. I also hate seeing people repeat their commands until the dog gives in but I catch myself doing the same thing. 

I don't think I'm at the correction stage yet, but when I get there I will remember this. 

As far as the trainer. 
I took your guys advice and went with the first trainer that sounded OK. Though I will stay with her for as long as everything is OK I wouldn't say that she's someone i'd blindly follow. We also disagree on corrections. I never told her this because I figured when we get there I will just correct my own way but still, it'd be nice if we were on the same page abt something so important. 

Also, I can't afford to see her every week, let alone a few times a week. For me a trainer is someone I call when I'm in over my head (aggression, for example). But questions and problems come up every day. 

So I will have to do a lot of asking questions. If someone doesn't want to respond - I totally understand. But please don't tell me to go to the trainer and get off the Internet. 

Or get off the Internet and work with my dog. I can't work with my dog if i don't know how to do it. 

Also, we didn't lay any foundation with the trainer. The entire session was strictly dealing with lunging and barking. That's what I contacted her for and that was the most pressing issue. 


I know about consistency but I'm finding it very hard to be consistent. I know that it's a must and I still catch myself being inconsistent

I know I create my own problems. 

Reading all your comments really helps. They make me think of things I haven't thought of before, come up with solutions for problems. 






DaniFani said:


> I guess I was just responding to what *I* would do in the videos that you posted. And what has worked for *me*. I do think you are taking a lot of methods and trying to do to much at once. I agree with everyone else, especially about the engagement and being "fun." And don't worry, my TD yells at me to be more fun all the time.
> 
> The thing about what *I* would do (at the advise of someone more experienced), is that I am pretty consistent in my expectations, praise, type of reward, and "how" I correct. It's similar for everything that he isn't supposed to do. And consistency is more than how you train, it's keeping the same expectation for rules and manners no matter where you are. My dog has to "down" no matter where we are....and in the beginning (after he knew the command) any break of the down got a correction. I remember first starting with my training director and when the dog broke the down I just gave the command again...my TD was like, "what'd you just teach him? You need to correct, give the command again, and after he holds it, release him and give tons of praise and reward. The command isn't a correction." And here I was yelling "down" over and over again (and I hate people that say the command 15 times to get their dog to do something lol). So I became consistent in my expectations (hold the down until I released it) and that he had to do it anywhere under any distraction....and I have great, reliable "downs" now. But again, this is something that worked for *me*, and I am using the same TD for everything. It's the only way I remain consistent, I trust my trainer, and unless they do something morally questionable, I will follow the methods as long as they work.
> 
> I can imagine how frustrating it would be for my dog if I tried different ways of doing things for every new command. I found methods that seem to be working (proofed under high distraction)....but I also have a very experienced person, in real life, watching, critiquing, and offering advice.
> 
> I guess in all this mumbo gumbo what I'm trying to say is I agree with Winners. You should really stick with your trainer, focus on whatever ground work she told you to build and go from the ground up....being consistent....if you don't want him to charge/bark at the cats, you need to be on top of it EVERY time, not just every once in a while....if you don't want him whining in a crate/cordoned off area...you need to be on top of every whine/bark/carrying on....don't let him keep doing something inappropriate because it's "cute" or because he's getting a "break" from training (not specifcally meant for you, but I know friends that are inconsistent like this and don't have consistent obedience because of the unclear boundaries). And every opportunity to reinforce something should be taken advantage of. REinforcement doesn't HAVE to be treats, if my dog is in the house and I recall him with a "here" and he comes, I verbally praise him and give a good belly scratch....yeah, he may have only come from the family room to the bedroom, but he listened and gets rewarded for that. All food, affection, play, etc...should be worked for (NILIF). But, again, that's something that needs to be started from the ground up.
> 
> Just pick one thing and work on it....man I rambled on here...hope it all makes sense lol.





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----------



## lalachka

Here's one more video. It's basically the same thing (tug and flirt) but the quality is horrible. 

http://youtu.be/RcMMlawZozg


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I really wanted to crop some of it out lol but I didn't.
> 
> Waiting to be ripped apart))))))
> Seriously though, I don't mind. My COMEs were much better today thanks to you guys
> 
> Boomer playing at the park - YouTube
> 
> I'm uploading 2 more videos but they're even worse quality
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Maybe try to do things more during the day? It may be too much for him that everything beyond a certain point is pitch black. Also, at the very end when he is barking and at your side, you were patting him, to me it looked like an encouragement of the behavior. One of the things I learned very early on was "don't say 'it's okay' or pat the dog when they are doing something you don't like....fear barking, whining, etc..." To them the patting and words are translating as "good job, I like what you are doing, keep doing it." 

I *think maybe part of his lack of interest in the tug/toy is because you aren't letting him win it enough?? Hopefully someone with more tug experience will chime in...and he may just not have the drive for the toy/prey....lordy can I relate to that problem...my gsd that just passed was a showline that just did not have a high prey drive/toy drive....It makes it really hard to train them using a toy...it can be done, by building that drive via back tying, teasing, playing, etc...but it is def difficult. I was always back tying/teasing/tugging with my guy....always trying to build up that drive for the tug....


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Maybe try to do things more during the day? It may be too much for him that everything beyond a certain point is pitch black. Also, at the very end when he is barking and at your side, you were patting him, to me it looked like an encouragement of the behavior. One of the things I learned very early on was "don't say 'it's okay' or pat the dog when they are doing something you don't like....fear barking, whining, etc..." To them the patting and words are translating as "good job, I like what you are doing, keep doing it."
> 
> I *think maybe part of his lack of interest in the tug/toy is because you aren't letting him win it enough?? Hopefully someone with more tug experience will chime in...and he may just not have the drive for the toy/prey....lordy can I relate to that problem...my gsd that just passed was a showline that just did not have a high prey drive/toy drive....It makes it really hard to train them using a toy...it can be done, by building that drive via back tying, teasing, playing, etc...but it is def difficult. I was always back tying/teasing/tugging with my guy....always trying to build up that drive for the tug....


I'm a night person)))) besides i work during the day. I don't function in the mornings at all and then I have to go to work around 12. 

I didn't notice the patting and I don't remember why I did it. I'm always touching him, petting him. Half of the time I don't realize I'm doing it. 

I didn't handle the barking well, that was the part I wanted to crop out)))))

As far as the tug. This was taped an hour after we got there. When we first get there he loves tugging, will do it for 5 mins or so. And then loses interest for the rest of the time. 
I let him win sometimes and he will take the tug and try to hide it from me lolol
So I take it back and we go again. And then at some point he doesn't want to tug anymore. 

Also, I have a bite pillow, he likes that more than the tug. Almost always ready for it and doesn't let go. 

I wouldn't say his prey drive is low lol seeing how he chases the cats and birds and whatever. 



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----------



## DaniFani

And I totally understand the frustration with being told to "go work with your trainer." Posting the videos is better than what you've given people so far because people can actually see* what you are doing and critique it for you...in some ways it's better than in person because you can pause, rewind, etc....my trainer loves when we video some bitework, because we can go back and actually focus on different aspects, grip, barking, etc....

Just keep working on the consistency thing....it's hard, and none of us are 100% perfect in it...if I am out and about it's almost like my corgi knows I'm not going to give him the meaningful correction (don't want to get yelled at for popping a pinch on my 'poor little dog'....gimme a break...my corgi takes harder corrections than some of the mals in SchH lol)....and he will blow me off sometimes when we are out and about....and I let him do it or give the command again....because I just don't want to deal with it while we are walking down main street lol.

Also, have you thought of looking for a SchH club in your area and having him evaluated? Maybe you could do tracking and obedience with him, or at the minimum definitely a BH (obedience only)....clubs are so helpful....usually* full of experienced knowledgeable people, that can guide you. They are also pretty inexpensive (mine was $275 annually), meet twice a week....I just can't say enough about how great clubs are  Plus it's awesome if you are there long enough and watch other new people join. I joined at the same time as another "newbie" and we kind of go through all the goof ups together. And trust me....most handle like you did in your video the first time, are yelled at to be more exciting, and are inconsistent....it's a steep learning curve.

Oh, and sorry I've been snappy and snarky with you in past threads. I've had a rough couple of weeks leading up to losing my GSD...I should have just stayed away because my patience was crap lol.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I'm a night person)))) besides i work during the day. I don't function in the mornings at all and then I have to go to work around 12.
> 
> I didn't notice the patting and I don't remember why I did it. I'm always touching him, petting him. Half of the time I don't realize I'm doing it.
> 
> I didn't handle the barking well, that was the part I wanted to crop out)))))
> 
> As far as the tug. This was taped an hour after we got there. When we first get there he loves tugging, will do it for 5 mins or so. And then loses interest for the rest of the time.
> I let him win sometimes and he will take the tug and try to hide it from me lolol
> So I take it back and we go again. And then at some point he doesn't want to tug anymore.
> 
> Also, I have a bite pillow, he likes that more than the tug. Almost always ready for it and doesn't let go.
> 
> I wouldn't say his prey drive is low lol seeing how he chases the cats and birds and whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would really listen to his cues when he is getting tired or doesn't want to play anymore. When we play tug with the younger guys on training days, it's really short lived...I'm talking 10-15 mins max. They tire quickly and you always want to end on a high note (wanting the tug, not being tired of the tug).


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## lalachka

Lol it's OK. I know I have a talent of pissing people off))))

I did email a SchH club a few weeks ago. Lol no reply, maybe because I said I wasn't interested in the sport and was looking for help on aggression?

Or maybe because he's not AKC registered?

The clubs are at least an hour away but i'd make the trip, i'd LOVE having all these experienced people tell me what I'm doing wrong. 

He's not papered. Doesn't that mean he can't belong to a SchH club?

I will email them again. Someone said clubs are not that good at emailing back




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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> I would really listen to his cues when he is getting tired or doesn't want to play anymore. When we play tug with the younger guys on training days, it's really short lived...I'm talking 10-15 mins max. They tire quickly and you always want to end on a high note (wanting the tug, not being tired of the tug).


Aha. So don't even try it? For example, limit tug every day to the 5 or whatever how many minutes he's still interested in?

And then go longer if his interest stays longer?


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Aha. So don't even try it? For example, limit tug every day to the 5 or whatever how many minutes he's still interested in?
> 
> And then go longer if his interest stays longer?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah, that's what I did.


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Lol it's OK. I know I have a talent of pissing people off))))
> 
> I did email a SchH club a few weeks ago. Lol no reply, maybe because I said I wasn't interested in the sport and was looking for help on aggression?
> 
> Or maybe because he's not AKC registered?
> 
> The clubs are at least an hour away but i'd make the trip, i'd LOVE having all these experienced people tell me what I'm doing wrong.
> 
> He's not papered. Doesn't that mean he can't belong to a SchH club?
> 
> I will email them again. Someone said clubs are not that good at emailing back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah, if you said you weren't interested in the sport, they probably wouldn't be interested in you lol. Why are you not interested in the sport? It offers so much....obedience, tracking, and protection (if your dog can do that). But you can also do just one or two of those....there are titles in Obedience only and tracking only....of course you have to find a club that would be okay with working only towards those titles...but if he's evaluated and they think he could cut it for protection...even better. Unless you are against the sport for some reason, I would email them, say you are interested in the sport and would love an eval if they are accepting new members....or something along those lines.

Edit: Or maybe just ask if you can come to a training day, meet the members/TD, and see if maybe you'd be a good fit for them and vis versa...and THEN bring your dog the next time for an eval.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Yeah, that's what I did.


More stuff to try tomorrow))))))

I'm falling asleep typing, good night and thank you for all the help. Lots of it sticks. 


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Yeah, if you said you weren't interested in the sport, they probably wouldn't be interested in you lol. Why are you not interested in the sport? It offers so much....obedience, tracking, and protection (if your dog can do that). But you can also do just one or two of those....there are titles in Obedience only and tracking only....of course you have to find a club that would be okay with working only towards those titles...but if he's evaluated and they think he could cut it for protection...even better. Unless you are against the sport for some reason, I would email them, say you are interested in the sport and would love an eval if they are accepting new members....or something along those lines.


I will def email them again. I'm not against it, just didn't think i was interested. 

But I'm sure i'd get interested if I saw it in real life. 

Does he have to have papers though?


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## Walperstyle

don't see what the big deal is here... lol @ people


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## Baillif

If you are having issues with leash pressure training you might need to close your eyes and focus just on the pressure you feel. You might be getting distracted by watching the dog. Don't watch him just feel him give into it. Steadily increase pressure on him and when you feel it give in then you totally let the pressure off mark it and reward.

There are a few reasons I say crate over that hallway. He can already get out if he really wanted, if you had a good crate this wouldn't be the case. Get one of those plastic carrying travel crates those are nice. If you ever see an Ellis style trainer they'll expect you to have something like that anyway. The less he can move around and get agitated the better off you are and the better off he is. The crates take advantage of a den instinct and they tend to be much calmer in there than if they were just put into a larger space they could pace and get worked up in. 

Crates are more for resting and staying calm in so unless you have toys specifically designed to be chewed on by dogs with strong jaws stay away from putting them in there. You don't want him eating something he shouldn't out of boredom and it ending up costing you 1500 dollars in surgical bills. Something in there he can chew on is fine, it gives him an outlet for stress or energy. Any toy you put in there that you also want to play with and keep engaged with him with shouldn't be put in there because it isn't special if he has access to it so much. Nothing kills wanting a toy faster than having it all the time.

I was watching the videos. You might have better luck getting him more interested in the flirt pole if you shorten the string on it a bit so that you have more control over it and can make short quick movements with the toy on the end rather than long slow ones. You will also need to shorten the time you are playing that with him though because he will tire faster.


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## lalachka

Thank you for the leash pressure, yes, I'm sure I'm watching him. I will try closing my eyes. I guess you had the same problem lol?

I wi buy a crate. I can't imagine how I will be able to get him to get in there, he will hate me. But OK lol

About the videos. I will shorten it some more, but what do you mean by shortening the time? Play 2 mins at a time? I'm out there for 2-3 hours. I was hoping to eventually get to a point where the entire time he's focused on me, not sniffing stuff and ignoring other dogs. 

What do I keep him busy with for 2-3 hours then?
I made all these freaking toys and he gets bored of them all after an hour total so then he starts to wander off and I stand there like a dumb statue. 

Then I try 2nd round with the toys, then 3rd until he won't even take. 

I know this is bad, I should always leave off him wanting more but then what do I do with him?



Baillif said:


> If you are having issues with leash pressure training you might need to close your eyes and focus just on the pressure you feel. You might be getting distracted by watching the dog. Don't watch him just feel him give into it. Steadily increase pressure on him and when you feel it give in then you totally let the pressure off mark it and reward.
> 
> There are a few reasons I say crate over that hallway. He can already get out if he really wanted, if you had a good crate this wouldn't be the case. Get one of those plastic carrying travel crates those are nice. If you ever see an Ellis style trainer they'll expect you to have something like that anyway. The less he can move around and get agitated the better off you are and the better off he is. The crates take advantage of a den instinct and they tend to be much calmer in there than if they were just put into a larger space they could pace and get worked up in.
> 
> Crates are more for resting and staying calm in so unless you have toys specifically designed to be chewed on by dogs with strong jaws stay away from putting them in there. You don't want him eating something he shouldn't out of boredom and it ending up costing you 1500 dollars in surgical bills. Something in there he can chew on is fine, it gives him an outlet for stress or energy. Any toy you put in there that you also want to play with and keep engaged with him with shouldn't be put in there because it isn't special if he has access to it so much. Nothing kills wanting a toy faster than having it all the time.
> 
> I was watching the videos. You might have better luck getting him more interested in the flirt pole if you shorten the string on it a bit so that you have more control over it and can make short quick movements with the toy on the end rather than long slow ones. You will also need to shorten the time you are playing that with him though because he will tire faster.





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## Baillif

You get to a point in the leash pressure where a very very slight movement in the leash will cause him to give in so yeah at that point you have to pretty much close your eyes and just focus on what you feel and not on what you see. If you did a lot of luring with a dog like with mine he might try to follow the hand too, and isn't actually caving to pressure. Make sure you do not move and keep your body movement to an absolute minimum with this. You don't want him following you or your hand. Also make sure you do no commands during this. Basically do it like Ellis said to the letter.

If your end goal really is attention on you and the toy despite any distractions then you need to create value for yourself and the toy. You sound like you really love playing with your dog and that's great, but it will mean you are going to have a hard time with this next part. Building up value for yourself the toy and the interaction with the dog is going to require an element of frustration. That means short sessions with a fresh dog, and then in the crate when you are done. Time with you and the toy is limited the dog is more likely to make the best of it. 

You can punish a dog from liking an activity without ever using adversives. I'll give you an example. I like to run. I like to run fast. But if someone was having me run back and forth across a field as fast as I could for hours I would probably not want to go running under those circumstances for very long. The end effect would essentially be the same as if I was punched in the face for running across that field.

You have to learn to leave the dog wanting more. Right now you're spending so much time with the dog playing games and whatever else that he doesn't value that time right now, checks out and is like screw it I'm doing my own thing now. With the videos your dog was showing very little desire for that flirt pole. Part of it was the presentation but a larger part of it is just the amount of time you're playing him.

My trainer was telling me about a woman who got a really really nice Malinois from Ellis great motivation great energy a dog that could take her to the podium and a few weeks later she calls Ellis wondering why he doesn't want to work anymore and he finds out she was hiking with the dog and running her dogs and basically had 10 hour days with activities for the dog. He didn't want to work with energy because his life was full with other stuff and when it came to trying to motivate him for attention he just wasn't having it.

So to a certain extent you have to make a choice between really well trained motivated working dog and pet. Now there is a place in the middle you could occupy as well, but even to go there you have to manage the dog a little better in terms of limiting activities to create value.

Your dog won't hate you for the crate by the way especially if that's the one place he is fed for a while. If we go into a room with a crate my dog will jump in there first thing without me ever asking him to. I have to call him out of it.


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## lalachka

I skimmed thru this and already have some questions but I have to leave soon so I will reply some time tonight. 

Thank you, somehow you always pick up on my issues, your replies are always helpful. 


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## Blanketback

One of the ways I keep my dog interested (or build his frustration, lol) is by storing his frisbee and flirt pole right at his eye level, but he's trained to "leave it" until I bring them out for play. He has other things to amuse himself with (not in the crate though) but those 2 things are 'my' games with him. He goes nuts for them - but I don't keep him going until he drops either, lol. Another thing to build his excitement is that he's trained to place the frisbee in my hand - so he gets even more riled up as soon as he's given it to me. He air snaps, lol. And he has to "go on" to where I throw it, not just hang around me waiting for the toss. With the flirt pole, he's trained to "drop it" and then he also has to "back" away from it - those 2 things ramp him up too. Sorry I can't critique the videos, I'm having a really pokey day with my internet connection.


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## DaniFani

Do you walk the dog? Or do you just stay in one place the whole time? That's kind of boring....I agree with Baillif, I think the dog needs more "away" time in his crate. It will also help him deal with the anxiety....I like a gsd that wants to be around me....but I don't want that's super needy/borderline SA....I want the dog to have a bit of independence too. My GSD was super duper needy....my corgi is more balanced...he's always aware of where I am at and is eye distance away (and follows me if I leave the room), but can also go lay in his crate on his own if I am just doing stuff around the house....my gsd would follow my every step if I let him....and I don't want that level of neediness...I helped my gsd to "deal with" that neediness, by regular crate time and "bed" time (when he had to be in his dog bed in the family room).


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## Saphire

I am not a professional trainer...I know what has worked for me over the years, and what has not. I also know what works for me may not work for others.

I know my first priority when I brought Gus home was to build and develop a strong relationship with him. Carmen was adamant this was so important. 

After watching these videos, I do not see a relationship with the owner and this dog so that is where I would start.


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## David Winners

Engagement and focus. Keep it really simple until you have that.

David Winners


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## Baillif

That's a little strong. There is a relationship there the dog clearly likes her the problem is there isn't a sense of desire to engage there because access is always there. It is kind of like going to night clubs for humans. The ones that are considered the best and great fun are usually the ones with long lines outside even though there is room for more people inside. They do it intentionally. You want to go to that place because it isn't always available. More value ends up assigned to that place because others clearly want in hence the lines, and you will sometimes be turned away at the door. On the other side of the coin if it was too hard to access many people would just give up on it because it is too hard to get in. In dog training you can do this too by making the dog miss on the tug too many times before he is able to grab it and successfully hold on. 

Another good example is chic fila. It's closed on sundays. When do I usually find myself wanting it? Sundays.


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## Saphire

I am not saying her dog dislikes her, yes that would be harsh. Having your dog like you and having a relationship with your dog are two very different things to me.


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## Blanketback

You guys are just going to confuse lala even more  One says to crate the dog to gain independence, the other says to start building a relationship...lol...the poor woman is trying so hard already, now her head's really going to start spinning.

But, it's such a great thing that a trainer is now involved. I'm happy that someone with some experience can see things firsthand, and help lala train her young dog not to scare the heck out of other people. And, I'll bet that the dog isn't even aggressive, only that its untrained and is just a barking fool, lol.


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## Saphire

My dog "likes" my neighbor but does not have a relationship with her. 
I will try to put in words..my words.

My dog wants to be around me. He will interact with me in all environments with or without distractions because I have a connection with him aka relationship. Without that connection training, playtime, everything odds more difficult. 

Does that make any sense?

Lalachka continues to come here looking for advice.


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## Baillif

The dog honestly looks more like it just likes barking like people like singing in the shower. It wasn't much fear if any or aggression so much because the dog very quickly took food in that video. A dog in fight or flight mode won't take food that quick.

I'd call that built up value for your interaction saphire. I get what you're saying.


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## Shade

I have to agree with Saphire, a relationship isn't always about what you get from the other. Sure, a puppy loves when you have treats, toys, and are doing everything they want, the part you work on is the actual relationship so the dog loves YOU and not just what you bring to the table. 

I hope that makes sense. Engagement should eventually happen with nothing more then eye contact or a noise but that comes with time and effort

I don't think crating hurts a relationship, both my dogs are crated when I'm at work and they're just fine.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> You get to a point in the leash pressure where a very very slight movement in the leash will cause him to give in so yeah at that point you have to pretty much close your eyes and just focus on what you feel and not on what you see. If you did a lot of luring with a dog like with mine he might try to follow the hand too, and isn't actually caving to pressure. Make sure you do not move and keep your body movement to an absolute minimum with this. You don't want him following you or your hand. Also make sure you do no commands during this. Basically do it like Ellis said to the letter.


 
Thank you so much!!! I’m definitely luring him that’s why it’s so hard to catch when he really gives in.
I will try not moving at all. I thought I was doing it the same way he did it)))))))) it’s so helpful when other people see me do things. As far as I’m concerned I’m doing it the way he said it)))))))





Baillif said:


> If your end goal really is attention on you and the toy despite any distractions then you need to create value for yourself and the toy. You sound like you really love playing with your dog and that's great, but it will mean you are going to have a hard time with this next part. Building up value for yourself the toy and the interaction with the dog is going to require an element of frustration. That means short sessions with a fresh dog, and then in the crate when you are done. Time with you and the toy is limited the dog is more likely to make the best of it..


 
Yes, that’s my goal. But you keep forgetting that there’s no crate when I’m out there))))) so there are no time outs. Are you saying quit all games outside and work on engagement at home? I have his 100% undivided attention and focus at home lol
And then what do I do outside for 3 hours?




Baillif said:


> You can punish a dog from liking an activity without ever using adversives. I'll give you an example. I like to run. I like to run fast. But if someone was having me run back and forth across a field as fast as I could for hours I would probably not want to go running under those circumstances for very long. The end effect would essentially be the same as if I was punched in the face for running across that field.





Baillif said:


> You have to learn to leave the dog wanting more. Right now you're spending so much time with the dog playing games and whatever else that he doesn't value that time right now, checks out and is like screw it I'm doing my own thing now. With the videos your dog was showing very little desire for that flirt pole. Part of it was the presentation but a larger part of it is just the amount of time you're playing him.




Can you explain the presentation? What can I do better? I just did whatever)))))
Yeah, this was taped an hour after playing with all these toys already. Basically this is what I do every day. Play every toy until he’s tired of it, run around a little, work on some commands, do another round of toys, then again goof around, commands, rinse and repeat until it’s time to go home. I’m sure he’s bored. I’m boring loolo
What can I do?





Baillif said:


> So to a certain extent you have to make a choice between really well trained motivated working dog and pet. Now there is a place in the middle you could occupy as well, but even to go there you have to manage the dog a little better in terms of limiting activities to create value.


 
I want a well trained motivated pet)))))) how?


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## Saphire

Crating is a very important part of building Relationship..but only if the time out of the crate is quality time. Time out of crate to sit and chew a bone while you watch TV etc. is not going to build a relationship. (that is just an example)


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> One of the ways I keep my dog interested (or build his frustration, lol) is by storing his frisbee and flirt pole right at his eye level, but he's trained to "leave it" until I bring them out for play. He has other things to amuse himself with (not in the crate though) but those 2 things are 'my' games with him. He goes nuts for them - but I don't keep him going until he drops either, lol. Another thing to build his excitement is that he's trained to place the frisbee in my hand - so he gets even more riled up as soon as he's given it to me. He air snaps, lol. And he has to "go on" to where I throw it, not just hang around me waiting for the toss. With the flirt pole, he's trained to "drop it" and then he also has to "back" away from it - those 2 things ramp him up too. Sorry I can't critique the videos, I'm having a really pokey day with my internet connection.


i can't do much in the house and that's where i have his undivided attention. i don't have the space to any kind of exercises. we tried doing a frisbee today and my daughter knocked a bunch of stuff down. 

it's ok, not the end of the world)))))) no fun though and it's VERY slippery.

i'd rug the open space but i hate rugs so it'd have to be some kind of a rug i can put down and put up but then it will slip on the floor if it's not nailed to the floor or whatever.

i need a yard))))))
i know i'm no competition for all the dogs and smells out there.
i'm sure it will happen some day but it's not happening yet


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## Blanketback

But having the dog trained to stay on his bed and chew a bone while you watch tv is a great thing, IMO. I only use my crate to keep my dog safe when I can't watch him, or once in a blue moon for a time out. The rest of the time (when he's not eating, playing, or whatever) he's trained to stay in his spot - although he does have several of those throughout the house, depending on where I am.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Do you walk the dog? Or do you just stay in one place the whole time? That's kind of boring....I agree with Baillif, I think the dog needs more "away" time in his crate. It will also help him deal with the anxiety....I like a gsd that wants to be around me....but I don't want that's super needy/borderline SA....I want the dog to have a bit of independence too. My GSD was super duper needy....my corgi is more balanced...he's always aware of where I am at and is eye distance away (and follows me if I leave the room), but can also go lay in his crate on his own if I am just doing stuff around the house....my gsd would follow my every step if I let him....and I don't want that level of neediness...I helped my gsd to "deal with" that neediness, by regular crate time and "bed" time (when he had to be in his dog bed in the family room).


not a lot. i posted my routine in response to Baillif. basically it's the same old over and over.
the tape showed a 3rd round or so))))) about an hour in.

yeah, he wasn't that excited, i'm surprised he took the tug AT ALL. usually after the first 2 sessions he won't take it.

what do i do for 3 hours????
my idea of fun is reading a book, programming something, sleeping lolol
yeah, i'm having a problem keeping him entertained.


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## lalachka

David Winners said:


> Engagement and focus. Keep it really simple until you have that.
> 
> David Winners


 
i already replied to others but repeating)))))
how? i'm having a problem engaging him and him keeping the focus on me outside.

at home i have his undivided attention, outside, it depends. if there are no other dogs around and i'm still on the first or 2nd rotation of the toys - then yeah.

but then he starts to check out.

what else can i do?


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> That's a little strong. There is a relationship there the dog clearly likes her the problem is there isn't a sense of desire to engage there because access is always there. It is kind of like going to night clubs for humans. The ones that are considered the best and great fun are usually the ones with long lines outside even though there is room for more people inside. They do it intentionally. You want to go to that place because it isn't always available. More value ends up assigned to that place because others clearly want in hence the lines, and you will sometimes be turned away at the door. On the other side of the coin if it was too hard to access many people would just give up on it because it is too hard to get in. In dog training you can do this too by making the dog miss on the tug too many times before he is able to grab it and successfully hold on.
> 
> Another good example is chic fila. It's closed on sundays. When do I usually find myself wanting it? Sundays.


 
i get the idea))))) but it's hard to implement.
most of the training and all exercise is done outside. that's just how it happens.

i have about 2-3 hours every day and i want to spend them outside with him. my apartment doesn't have space for anything fun.

i have no problem getting his focus 100% of the time at home, that's all he does, stares at me 24/7 and gets up every time i get up.

so the next step is getting the same focus outside for 3 hours. how??


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## lalachka

Saphire said:


> My dog "likes" my neighbor but does not have a relationship with her.





Saphire said:


> I will try to put in words..my words.
> My dog wants to be around me. He will interact with me in all environments with or without distractions because I have a connection with him aka relationship. Without that connection training, playtime, everything odds more difficult.




I just started training him, I just starting working on engagement, maybe a month if that when I really started consistently doing anything.
I can’t judge whether we have a connection or not but I do have a problem keeping his attention for the 2-3 hours outside, that’s why I’m here asking. The tape you saw was about an hour in, this is what happens.
That’s why I taped that part of it instead of taping as soon as we get in when he’s all excited and plays anything. 





Saphire said:


> Lalachka continues to come here looking for advice.


 
????


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> The dog honestly looks more like it just likes barking like people like singing in the shower. It wasn't much fear if any or aggression so much because the dog very quickly took food in that video. A dog in fight or flight mode won't take food that quick.
> 
> I'd call that built up value for your interaction saphire. I get what you're saying.


he's very vocal, just likes to groan, whine, bark in all different tones. i think it's extremely adorable and I enjoy it.

i'm glad that you don't think it's aggression. he will take food all the time, on any of his freak outs (like once i get his attention, so 30 seconds in the worst case).


----------



## Baillif

Whenever you are using a flirt pole you want very short quick bursts of movement to trigger the dogs prey drive. You more or less want to trigger a quick pounce out of him rather than just have him lazily lumber after it. It might take a few quick misses when he thinks hes gonna get it to accomplish this but use the misses sparingly. When he gets the item if he ever stops paying full attention to it or is only loosely gripping it with his mouth you wanna yank it away from him quickly. Prey getting away from them makes them redouble their efforts.

You don't need a crate there to build frustration and don't need to use time outs. You just take him out there for 3 minutes max and then end the game and take him home and crate him. It helps to start with engagement and play in a minimum distraction area but you can only do what you can with the areas you have so just make the best of it. 

If you have that harness you can have someone post the dog and tease and play tug with the dog at the edge of 10 ft of line or so. You want to start your session hiding the tug at first then give your cue to get ready and then when he shows attention to you you'd say "yes" then whip the toy out and get him going for it. Make him pull against that line to try to get at it a few times before you actually let him have it, and when you end the session you want to have whoever was posting him lift him by the harness till he drops the tug and then you very quickly steal it away from him and flaunt it in front of him before you put him away. Don't try to add control to it just make it fun.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> You guys are just going to confuse lala even more  One says to crate the dog to gain independence, the other says to start building a relationship...lol...the poor woman is trying so hard already, now her head's really going to start spinning.
> 
> But, it's such a great thing that a trainer is now involved. I'm happy that someone with some experience can see things firsthand, and help lala train her young dog not to scare the heck out of other people. And, I'll bet that the dog isn't even aggressive, only that its untrained and is just a barking fool, lol.


 
and yeah, i am getting confused but i'm buying a crate regardless))))))

yep, that's what she said. he barks at dogs because he wants to get to them. he barks at people and kids because he feels threatened. 

all def fixable and i'm working on it, we now do the hunting on the corners same way she showed me.

i just can't afford to have her help me with the 1000 other things i have questions about so i have to pick the most urgent ones.


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Whenever you are using a flirt pole you want very short quick bursts of movement to trigger the dogs prey drive. You more or less want to trigger a quick pounce out of him rather than just have him lazily lumber after it. It might take a few quick misses when he thinks hes gonna get it to accomplish this but use the misses sparingly. When he gets the item if he ever stops paying full attention to it or is only loosely gripping it with his mouth you wanna yank it away from him quickly. Prey getting away from them makes them redouble their efforts.
> 
> You don't need a crate there to build frustration and don't need to use time outs. You just take him out there for 3 minutes max and then end the game and take him home and crate him. It helps to start with engagement and play in a minimum distraction area but you can only do what you can with the areas you have so just make the best of it.
> 
> If you have that harness you can have someone post the dog and tease and play tug with the dog at the edge of 10 ft of line or so. You want to start your session hiding the tug at first then give your cue to get ready and then when he shows attention to you you'd say "yes" then whip the toy out and get him going for it. Make him pull against that line to try to get at it a few times before you actually let him have it, and when you end the session you want to have whoever was posting him lift him by the harness till he drops the tug and then you very quickly steal it away from him and flaunt it in front of him before you put him away. Don't try to add control to it just make it fun.


 
few things. i'm scared to jerk it this way because i read (here of course lolol) that if young dogs stop short they can injure their elbows and develop OCD.
when i play the way i want to he's so aggressively pouncing on it that i'm getting scared he will hurt himself. so i was doing it in a lighter way.

i'm paranoid when it comes to him hurting himself. every day i'm seeing some limps in him and then they dissappear. i'm sure i'm hallucinating at this point because i'm so scared of it.


i have the harness and we tried playing the Ellis COME games. my friend held him and i egged him to come to me.

as soon as he realized that he couldn't go - he'd just sit and bark, like to tell me that he can't come.

i think some no pulling training is kicking in at the wrong time lololol
what do i do? i haven't tried the harness since


----------



## lalachka

Shade said:


> I have to agree with Saphire, a relationship isn't always about what you get from the other. Sure, a puppy loves when you have treats, toys, and are doing everything they want, the part you work on is the actual relationship so the dog loves YOU and not just what you bring to the table.
> 
> I hope that makes sense. Engagement should eventually happen with nothing more then eye contact or a noise but that comes with time and effort
> 
> I don't think crating hurts a relationship, both my dogs are crated when I'm at work and they're just fine.


yeah, that's what i'm trying to work on, that's my goal, to have his attention and focus on me no matter what happens around us. that's why i'm here asking questions.

i'm finding that i'm having a problem keeping his focus outside. i just started engagement a month or less ago. he's definitely better than before but a long way from where i want him.

i'm buying a crate, i should've just kept on with it back then but too late.


----------



## Sookie

I think you are expecting way too much from your dog. Three hours of focus on toys and commands in one session? Of course he loses focus. I lose focus after half that amount of time and I bet you do too. Keep sessions of commands short - 15-30 minutes - a few times a day. Play first, then go walking around to new and different places for him to sniff and explore. Do that three times a day, not all at once. I don't think you can expect him to keep focusing for that amount of time realistically. Multiple shorter sessions in new places for play time and multiple shorter sessions in your house or a quiet environment for commands and obedience work. And have fun!


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> i already replied to others but repeating)))))
> how? i'm having a problem engaging him and him keeping the focus on me outside.
> 
> at home i have his undivided attention, outside, it depends. if there are no other dogs around and i'm still on the first or 2nd rotation of the toys - then yeah.
> 
> but then he starts to check out.
> 
> what else can i do?


I wish I had a dog here to shoot some video. I would be luring into positions, marking and rewarding with tug or a toy. I would play hide and seek with food or toys. I know you don't have much space in your apartment, but you could start working on engagement someplace that doesn't mean "play aimlessly for 3 hours" to the dog. There is a sidewalk in front of your apartment? A parking lot handy? Parking garage? Roof of your building? Alley? 

I used to train for hours in my room in Afghanistan with a crazy high drive dog. Our space, including my bed, a desk and her kennel, was about 8' x 12'. I trained positions, out, hand signals, head signals (for when I was holding a weapon), speak, up, played kennel games. We had a blast at home, all the while getting that much more in tune with each other.

It's hard for me to explain how to get a dog's attention and keep it. You just have to read the dog and give it what it needs. You have to be fun and cool and confident and silly and energetic. This is why I keep recommending a trainer, and group lessons for sure. You will see how the trainer interacts with dogs and grabs their attention. 

Once you have that focus and engagement, you won't need to work do hard at keeping the dog with you mentally, it will want to stay in the game with you and learn.

David Winners


----------



## Shade

Start small, the outside world is a huge place of distractions so you need to be more exciting then anything else in the world. 

He knows you're exciting inside the house, now show him you're exciting outside the house. Bring a toy with out when you take him out for a bathroom break, allow him to do his business then whip out the toy and have a play session outside. Do whatever it takes to keep him happy, run and have him chase you around if that's what works. 

Be unpredictable, if you see him lose focus then try something different.


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## Baillif

lalachka said:


> few things. i'm scared to jerk it this way because i read (here of course lolol) that if young dogs stop short they can injure their elbows and develop OCD.
> when i play the way i want to he's so aggressively pouncing on it that i'm getting scared he will hurt himself. so i was doing it in a lighter way.
> 
> i'm paranoid when it comes to him hurting himself. every day i'm seeing some limps in him and then they dissappear. i'm sure i'm hallucinating at this point because i'm so scared of it.
> 
> 
> i have the harness and we tried playing the Ellis COME games. my friend held him and i egged him to come to me.
> 
> as soon as he realized that he couldn't go - he'd just sit and bark, like to tell me that he can't come.
> 
> i think some no pulling training is kicking in at the wrong time lololol
> what do i do? i haven't tried the harness since


The dog is already pretty old so you can probably go without worrying about that kind of injury. I haven't seen drive from the dog yet that would show enough energy put into the game to hurt himself.

For the recall game you might wanna let him go a while without food. 24 hours will do it. Then with the food you use it needs to be high value. Think steak, boneless chicken, hot dogs, natural balance food in those rolls or something like that (don't use the kibble he eats regularly) and none of those cheap walmart dry **** dogfood biscuits either. You go over to the dog while he is being held and swipe the food reward under his nose so he knows you have it on you and then you take off running away from him. While you are still running away you use that recall command and turn around but keep backing up away from him at a walking pace. The person holding him the second you use that recall command the person has to let that dog go. Don't hold onto him. The goal isn't to create learned helplessness its to get that dog to explode after you. You only use that recall command and you only use it once. No egging him on after that. No encouragement. If he doesn't come he doesn't eat.


----------



## Blanketback

You might be playing with the toys for too long. If he's losing interest then you should take them away before that. You can just put them in a backpack, and tell him to leave it. That's what I did when I was taking my puppy to the dog park, because I'd try to get there when nobody was there, but I'd put the frisbee away when another dog showed up. He'd still rather have played with it than the other dogs, lol - but I didn't want to get any guarding habits forming, so I never played around other dogs.

If I were you, I'd put a room-sized area rug down and play fun games that don't require tons of space. Like putting a stuffed toy under some upside-down mini garbage cans, and letting him pick where it's hiding, or teaching him to stay across the room and play catch - then teach him to bring back and drop the toy into something before you throw it again.


----------



## lalachka

Sookie said:


> I think you are expecting way too much from your dog. Three hours of focus on toys and commands in one session? Of course he loses focus. I lose focus after half that amount of time and I bet you do too. Keep sessions of commands short - 15-30 minutes - a few times a day. Play first, then go walking around to new and different places for him to sniff and explore. Do that three times a day, not all at once. I don't think you can expect him to keep focusing for that amount of time realistically. Multiple shorter sessions in new places for play time and multiple shorter sessions in your house or a quiet environment for commands and obedience work. And have fun!


i'd be zoning out after a minute))))) i'm boring, trust me i know))))) physical things were never my thing so i'm struggling coming up with things to keep him entertained.

i'm at work during the day but i can def do twice a day, however, i already have a routine that we spend 2-3 hours outside every night and i'd like to not break it.

so far i havent skipped a day, whether it's raining, cold or whatever. the day i let myself not go or go for a half hour will be the day i will stop going out all together.

so for the 2-3 hours i should take walks every 20-30 mins and do different things along the way? 

i will try my best, i have no imagination. all this is a huge challenge for me.


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> I wish I had a dog here to shoot some video. I would be luring into positions, marking and rewarding with tug or a toy. I would play hide and seek with food or toys. I know you don't have much space in your apartment, but you could start working on engagement someplace that doesn't mean "play aimlessly for 3 hours" to the dog. There is a sidewalk in front of your apartment? A parking lot handy? Parking garage? Roof of your building? Alley?
> 
> I used to train for hours in my room in Afghanistan with a crazy high drive dog. Our space, including my bed, a desk and her kennel, was about 8' x 12'. I trained positions, out, hand signals, head signals (for when I was holding a weapon), speak, up, played kennel games. We had a blast at home, all the while getting that much more in tune with each other.
> 
> It's hard for me to explain how to get a dog's attention and keep it. You just have to read the dog and give it what it needs. You have to be fun and cool and confident and silly and energetic. This is why I keep recommending a trainer, and group lessons for sure. You will see how the trainer interacts with dogs and grabs their attention.
> 
> Once you have that focus and engagement, you won't need to work do hard at keeping the dog with you mentally, it will want to stay in the game with you and learn.
> 
> David Winners


i wish you did too))))) maybe you can whenever you do?

however, i saw Michael's video on building focus and engagement and they're AMAZING!!! i'd kill to have my dog like that.

but when i try the things he does my dogs doesn't react like his does))))))


i am signing up for her group lessons, it's basic obedience and loose leash walking. hopefully i can pick up ideas from there.

i see. so it's not about moving around, that's what you're saying? i will look up kennel games.


----------



## lalachka

Shade said:


> Start small, the outside world is a huge place of distractions so you need to be more exciting then anything else in the world.
> 
> He knows you're exciting inside the house, now show him you're exciting outside the house. Bring a toy with out when you take him out for a bathroom break, allow him to do his business then whip out the toy and have a play session outside. Do whatever it takes to keep him happy, run and have him chase you around if that's what works.
> 
> Be unpredictable, if you see him lose focus then try something different.


 
i'll try. yeah, we do the chase thing. i'm so out of shape though that i can't run much without losing breath.

i see the point though. it's just hard thinking of things to do)))))) no imagination. that's why i read the forums and get the ideas from here (flirt poll, then that made me think of a ball on a string).


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> The dog is already pretty old so you can probably go without worrying about that kind of injury. I haven't seen drive from the dog yet that would show enough energy put into the game to hurt himself.
> 
> For the recall game you might wanna let him go a while without food. 24 hours will do it. Then with the food you use it needs to be high value. Think steak, boneless chicken, hot dogs, natural balance food in those rolls or something like that (don't use the kibble he eats regularly) and none of those cheap walmart dry **** dogfood biscuits either. You go over to the dog while he is being held and swipe the food reward under his nose so he knows you have it on you and then you take off running away from him. While you are still running away you use that recall command and turn around but keep backing up away from him at a walking pace. The person holding him the second you use that recall command the person has to let that dog go. Don't hold onto him. The goal isn't to create learned helplessness its to get that dog to explode after you. You only use that recall command and you only use it once. No egging him on after that. No encouragement. If he doesn't come he doesn't eat.


 
ok, i'm going to take your word for it))))) to me even what he was doing on tape looks scary. anytime he stops short my heart skips a beat.

ok, i will try it with the food. yeah, i know no kibble, he's on raw, he wouldn't eat that anyway.
i will fast him as soon as he's ok from his problem (i had a thread, he had a tiny drop of blood in poop), so i will wait until that's resolved and fast him.

how many times can i do the recall game after fasting him? let's say he tries to come to me for the food and i let him.

how many more times can i do that?


----------



## Sookie

lalachka said:


> i'd be zoning out after a minute))))) i'm boring, trust me i know))))) physical things were never my thing so i'm struggling coming up with things to keep him entertained.
> 
> i'm at work during the day but i can def do twice a day, however, i already have a routine that we spend 2-3 hours outside every night and i'd like to not break it.
> 
> so far i havent skipped a day, whether it's raining, cold or whatever. the day i let myself not go or go for a half hour will be the day i will stop going out all together.
> 
> so for the 2-3 hours i should take walks every 20-30 mins and do different things along the way?
> 
> i will try my best, i have no imagination. all this is a huge challenge for me.


I think that you need to be going different places so he can see and sniff different things. If you can only do two - three hours all at once, I would play for thirty minutes (or as long as he is happy and interested to do so) and then walk to new places while doing occasional commands along the way. But it would, I think, be better to break that 3 hours up into two 90 minute sessions, at least. If I tried to keep Sookie interested for three hours in the same field behind my house every day she would run away from home lol. We do 3 walks/hikes a day to different places, multiple play sessions in the yard, multiple obedience sessions in the house, and at least one scent tracking exercise a day (which tires her out more than the flirt pole). My point is, we do lots of different things and that is what keeps her interest and focus - she is super energetic and focused but I can't imagine her focusing in one place on toys for 3 hours. Go for walks, play with toys, play scent games, play tug and fetch and flirt pole, but keep changing and making him think. That is why multiple sessions are, in my opinion, better than one long one - it keeps it fun and exciting and keeps the dog interested, focused, and wanting to be there, not burnt out and frustrated. Sookie likes to have a mission - she loves "find it" and will track through fields and forest to find a person or scent - I think a dog can tell if there is no purpose if they are smart, and can get bored, so give him a bit of purpose in your sessions (find, heel, fetch, bring, tug!, chase!, whatever works)... But again, I do think this is best in multiple outings, although everyone has success with different techniques  And same with obedience - lots of short and upbeat sessions.


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## Baillif

You want to end the game before he shows a drop in drive. Give a break for an hour or so then start it again. Anytime hes not into it just end the game don't bother trying to salvage the session.


----------



## Baillif

You should see if you can find a ringsports trainer in the area. They could give you hands on training. A lot of this you have to have experience doing with someone standing there telling you what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right and what you need to work on. We can sit here and describe stuff and you can read about it like crazy and even watch the youtube videos but until you do it and are critiqued while you do it it is super hard to learn otherwise. I still have sessions where the trainer is just frowning shaking his head and telling me I look like ****.


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## lalachka

Lol, OK then, I'm all loaded up with info, let's see what happens tonight. 

I will make it my goal to keep him entertained for the entire time by going to different places. 

But don't dogs sniff when they walk? That's not focusing on you then. Or I shouldn't let him?


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> You should see if you can find a ringsports trainer in the area. They could give you hands on training. A lot of this you have to have experience doing with someone standing there telling you what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right and what you need to work on. We can sit here and describe stuff and you can read about it like crazy and even watch the youtube videos but until you do it and are critiqued while you do it it is super hard to learn otherwise. I still have sessions where the trainer is just frowning shaking his head and telling me I look like ****.


))))))))))))) There are 2 clubs within a few hours but he doesn't have papers. Don't he need to have papers to train in the club?

I emailed one of them and no reply but as Dani pointed out, I told them I wasn't interested in the sport and they prolly weren't interested in me))))))

So I will try this again. 

Does he have to have AKC papers?


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## Baillif

You don't need papers. Zebu isn't even pure bred he's malinois/gsd mix hence no papers because he can't have papers.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> You don't need papers. Zebu isn't even pure bred he's malinois/gsd mix hence no papers because he can't have papers.


Emailing now))))))


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> You might be playing with the toys for too long. If he's losing interest then you should take them away before that. You can just put them in a backpack, and tell him to leave it. That's what I did when I was taking my puppy to the dog park, because I'd try to get there when nobody was there, but I'd put the frisbee away when another dog showed up. He'd still rather have played with it than the other dogs, lol - but I didn't want to get any guarding habits forming, so I never played around other dogs.
> 
> If I were you, I'd put a room-sized area rug down and play fun games that don't require tons of space. Like putting a stuffed toy under some upside-down mini garbage cans, and letting him pick where it's hiding, or teaching him to stay across the room and play catch - then teach him to bring back and drop the toy into something before you throw it again.


I just reread all replies and noticed the games for inside the house. Thank you, this sounds interesting. We will def try


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## Baillif

I'll try to get video of a session where I'm doing agitation to get Zebus desire for a new tug to rise so you have some idea of how it's done.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I'll try to get video of a session where I'm doing agitation to get Zebus desire for a new tug to rise so you have some idea of how it's done.


What do you mean a new tug? So he already likes tugging?
You're just trying to get him to like a new tug?
In any case, please do. 


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## Baillif

I did get him a new tug a jute one. I'm making it super duper special to him so that he wants it like puppy crack. Doesn't matter if I use an old one for it though the technique will create desire for the item all the same. I've gotta get three people for it though. Need one person to film one to post and then I gotta work the item so might take a bit.


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## David Winners

Tripods are wonderful tools. That would lower your requirement to 2 people.

David Winners


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I did get him a new tug a jute one. I'm making it super duper special to him so that he wants it like puppy crack. Doesn't matter if I use an old one for it though the technique will create desire for the item all the same. I've gotta get three people for it though. Need one person to film one to post and then I gotta work the item so might take a bit.


OK I see. Can't wait!!!

Lol yeah get a tripod, so this can happen faster. 


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## lalachka

Also, I did tracking yesterday and walked around. Getting better)))))

However, my tracking was low budget lolol. I didn't google before going out so I just did what came to my mind, throwing treats around and let him find them. 

I had 2 dogs running around sniffing them out. 
I'm about to look up tracking the real way))))))


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## Baillif

K few comments here to start off with. First off I did a little too much hip slapping with the toy, there were a few times there I should have just waited for him to bark without it. It just rained last night so the grass is kinda wet and soft hence my bad footing and almost wiping out early there trying to fake him out. There should have been more misses there, but between the being conservative on account of the lawn and zebu managing to pull my gf forward a bit I misjudged the angles a few times and he got it when I was trying to make him miss. 

She is told to take him into a circle when I am unable to yank it from his mouth because he is gripping like he should deep and tight. In the time he is circling with it he gets complacent and I come in to steal. At the end the proper way to hold him till he drops it is with him between the posting persons legs and I should have stolen from a neutral position. I'll try to clean it up in the next one or try to get one of my trainer decoying with me posting as he is a lot better than me. I probably played it up a bit too much when we were making him disengage but whatever.


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## Baillif

A little bit on what is going on too. To start I hide the toy. Now at this point he is in that harness hes on his lunge line he kinda already knows whats gonna happen and he knows I probably have something on me, but I start every session food or toy with his triggers for action "You ready?" When I have his eyes I say "yes!" He's classically conditioned to know when he hears this word something is coming food or toy and since he's got his agitation harness on he is pretty damned sure it isn't food, but either way its exciting. 

The slaps against my leg and the coming towards him to get him excited and when he barks I do some shuddering and that's for the sake of the sport for later so you can omit that if you want but you do probably want some excitement barks at the very least. I was supposed to get two side to side misses in just to build some frustration but he nails the tug on one of em so I assess his bite strength with a few tugs. I'm looking for a weak bite where I'm sure I can yank it away without too much force. It would be like prey slipping away from him and it builds desire. Whenever he is locked into it I have the post take him around in a circle and this generally gets him to loosen up so I can steal. The first time I go for it he slams me with it but that is a product of tug games from before, either way his grip has loosened and I can get away with it so we start again. The whole thing has to last 2-3 min tops and you ideally want to end with the dog on the rise in drive and desire not on his way down. This isn't meant to tire the dog out. When he's still fresh I want the post picking him up by the harness and waiting till he drops it out of his mouth. He wants to hold it but it starts to slip away and I go for the final steal and have the posting person drag him off while he can see me celebrating my ill gotten victory. He still wants to reengage but is dragged off to his crate to stew over it. 

End result
I have to hide that toy in a bookbag in a room he can't get into. If he even sees a bag he inspects it to see if it is the one with the tugs inside and if it was he would screw with it till he got it open. Those tugs are kept special so he is never allowed to just have one to play with on his own, but the interaction with me and the tug is what I'm really looking to keep special so on days where there is agitation I will keep him crated and only let him out for bathroom breaks or to lounge around with me. He can chew on his deer antler or bones if he wants but no toys. No other play. Those sessions are to be the absolute highlight of his day and they are to end when the dog wants more. The other dogs you can hear barking were watching and got super riled up. He pays no attention because of the tunnel vision on the activity.


----------



## lalachka

Thank you for making the video!!!!!
I think I understand everything so far. 

I like the tunnel vision. How old is he? How long did it take you to get him to focus on you outside with other dogs around)?

I will have more questions once I try doing this.


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## Baillif

He is 7 months old on the 4th. To get the tunnel vision on that activity shouldn't take that long. You want a bored dog before you try it. Make sure you note the post stance and the way she sits on the line. A lunging dog even a pup can hit the end of that line with a deceptive amount of force. The person posting is not supposed to talk or distract the dog in anyway they are there to basically be a post. If the post moves into you while you're doing your thing you can get bitten by accident. If you've never come at your dog like that before he might hesitate to come out at you. This happened the first time zebu faced a decoy he didn't know. He got beside me as I was posting and started to bark from there. If that happens back off and shudder if he barks, or tease him with the toy at a greater distance till he goes to the end of the line. Feigning weakness when he shows courage or strength will encourage him. Don't continue to press him if he is avoiding you. This is hopefully not an issue because hopefully your dog knows you won't hurt him.

I try to keep myself more fun than other dogs. Either by keeping him away from them or intentionally letting him interact with dogs that are pretty boring old lab, Bassett hound, basically anything I can out compete with a tug or ball. The lab just wants to hunt turtles or play fetch with me and usually won't play with the pup and when he does it's low intensity stuff. The Bassett is usually busy doing his impression of a sweet potato.

Worth noting that this exercise is kind of unintentionally performed by people with leash reactive dogs or soon to be leash reactive dogs. So keep that in mind the next time you drag your barking dog away from other dogs or people.


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## lalachka

How do you compete with the smells? My other problem is him smelling stuff and ignoring me.

Lol I never thought abt leash reactive dogs and dragging them away. So what should I do?
I can't just stand there and let him bark at someone, that's rude. 

I will try your exercise later on today. Can I use an old tug? I don't have a new one


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## Baillif

That was actually his old tug I tried to use the new one and because it is made from jute there were a few times in there where I just couldn't steal it. He's only seen that one with agitation so he locks into it and won't release it unless held up until it drops and even that takes time so it didn't make for the best video. The old tug should work fine.

To compete with the environment you have to create desire. What you were doing before you basically played with each toy until the dog was sick of it. It is kind of like listening to the same songs over and over again until you hate them. So you crate him for a while and you let him get really bored till he wants that action again. Shouldn't take longer than a day or two since he is a puppy. Then you start that agitation with the toy. The toy presents more action and excitement at this point than just smells on the ground he will have access to when you take him out to go to the bathroom. The line and harness create frustration as do the misses as he tries to get at it. You want him worked up before you go in for the misses and finally his opportunity to get his teeth on it. And then just like that it is over hes dragged away wanting more and back to the crate.

Now you want to build attention triggers too. The "you ready" "and the "yes" can be conditioned with food. I start his food obedience training with the same triggers and since this is the only way he eats they are exciting for that reason on top of the toy stuff. You'll know you have that down right when you can see his attention dart to you when he hears it.


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## lalachka

You are a wealth of info!!!!!! 

Who's teaching you all this? This all sounds like Ellis methods, your trainer goes by them or they're not his methods and that's what's used in the competition world?

I was asking how old your dog is hoping you'd say a year or whatever so that way I can hope that my doggie is not that far behind))))))
Didn't work)))))))))


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## Baillif

As to the leash reactivity question that is a little more complicated. There are lots of ways to fix it and make it better, some work better than others on a particular dog. Ellis would find the threshold distance the dog gets crazy and and feed feed feed and try to work the dog in closer to the other dog while still having the dog in training ignore it in favor of the food.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> As to the leash reactivity question that is a little more complicated. There are lots of ways to fix it and make it better, some work better than others on a particular dog. Ellis would find the threshold distance the dog gets crazy and and feed feed feed and try to work the dog in closer to the other dog while still having the dog in training ignore it in favor of the food.


And I'm doing that but sometimes I walk the streets and something sets him off before I see it. And then?

I know dragging him away is the worst thing, Ellis calls it a setback lol but what can I do??


----------



## Baillif

The trainer I see spent tens of thousands of dollars doing Michael's courses and trains with him and competes against him. They are on a call each other up on the phone basis. He has also studied under Ivan Balabanov so I got really lucky he is 15 minutes from me. He has his own twist on things I think but most of it is Michael's stuff or things that just work. Most of his working dogs come from Michael and I think a few are Ot Vitosha. There are ringsports clubs in this area too. I bought the agitation harness and line off one of his buddies that is in a schutzhund club an hour or two from here. He does the leatherwork on the harnesses himself. I wasn't aware the triangle area here in NC had that much dog sport training wealth but it does.

Don't feel bad either my dog is behind plenty of pups that started this kind of thing way earlier. Bringing up a pure sport dog is a whole lifestyle thing though not just for the dog but for the person doing it. There's a whole art to it which is why you really need a trainer to not just explain it but show how it is done.


----------



## Baillif

Depends. If he is just barking at the dark it could be anything, if my dog does it I'll usually let him go investigate with me coming a long with him. Sometimes it can be something as silly as a trashcan or a park bench. I have noticed that if you go right up to what is bothering the dog it might still bother him he will stand off and watch you, but if you sit on it he will immediately come in and see it isn't a threat because of how you treated it. So if you see the object that is causing trouble sit on it or lean against it.


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Depends. If he is just barking at the dark it could be anything, if my dog does it I'll usually let him go investigate with me coming a long with him. Sometimes it can be something as silly as a trashcan or a park bench. I have noticed that if you go right up to what is bothering the dog it might still bother him he will stand off and watch you, but if you sit on it he will immediately come in and see it isn't a threat because of how you treated it. So if you see the object that is causing trouble sit on it or lean against it.


Thank you, I will lol. I didn't realize sitting or leaning on it makes a difference. 

But what if it's a person? We are doing much better in terms of barking but there are a few people that insist on coming up to us though he barks at them every time. 

So he already started barking, what do I do


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## Baillif

Is it aggressive barking, fearful barking, or is he just excited and wanting to go meet? If you look at the agitation session the dog is barking out of excitement and frustration, but with the lunging on the line someone could easily interpret that as aggression and it isn't. We can clear a field in the park very very quickly doing that kind of thing. Either way you can treat it the same as you would with a dog. Find a threshold and work the dog in towards the person. It works best with a hungry dog, so if you are going out of your way to work on it, make sure that dog is hungry. Hungrier the better. Also if people insist on coming up to you while you're working with the dog you might as well put them to work.


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## lalachka

Is this your first competition dog?
How much is a trainer of that class if you don't mind me asking?
Is Michael training people one on one? I wonder how much that is lol

How long before you compete and which sport are you doing?


----------



## Baillif

It is 45 dollars an hour for a session (this is one on one) , but he clearly loves the competition side of things because he will work the dog and spend a ton of time just talking and spitballing different aspects of the training without ever charging for that, and I'm not so sure he is like that with the regular obedience dogs.

Michael's school for dog trainers is out in Cali and is a few thousand dollars I think 2k last I checked. The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers You can look there.

This is the first ringsport dog I've ever raised. He isn't one of those fancy Ot Vitosha dogs or an Ellis dog, but his malinois side comes from dogs from Ellis' kennel so there is a little genetic history there. I'm not sure about the shepherd side. He was started off under the marker system Ellis uses but the bitework and stuff like that didn't really start until later when he was evaluated for it and showed the aptitude around his 15 week mark.


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## lalachka

$45 for a trainer like that??????
$2k for Michael's school ?????

Is it NYC that has these crazy prices? I paid $50 for one of my trainers but he was totally useless, I just went to him once. 

One old school one was $100 hour and my current one $100 for an hour and a half. 

But these trainers are not the class of yours!!! This is depressing. 


What sport will you be competing in?


----------



## Baillif

He's training for mondioring atm. I'd be ecstatic if he could get an MR1.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> He's training for mondioring atm. I'd be ecstatic if he could get an MR1.


What's an mr1. And what do you mean he's training. He's going to be competing with your dog, not you


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## Baillif

There are title levels to the sport. I compete with him, so I guess technically we are training. Something I do could easily cost us points so it isn't just him.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

lalachka said:


> $2k for Michael's school ?????


Pretty much - one week courses are $950, two week courses are $1950: The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers | Courses

They're 10 AM to 5 PM every day.


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## lalachka

Lol question. I'm already looking for a crate, waiting on answers from 2 coworkers before buying one at the store. 
I'm also rearranging my bedroom to make space for it. 

But can you remind me again why I need a crate? I saw Noah's thread and him saying his dog will be sleeping in his bed soon and Dani saying that her dog is 2 years old or whatever and she's only now starting to trust him around the house and letting him sleep out of the crate. 

My boy has been sleeping in my room from day 1 and never destroyed anything. I even leave my door open so he can go in and out and still nothing. Except the cats we have no problems with him destroying stuff. 


So why do I need a crate? I'm not arguing, as I said, I'm preparing my room for a crate, just not sure what I will get out of it.


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## Saphire

Read back through all these posts...your answer is in many of them. No point in reposting over and over again.


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## lalachka

Saphire said:


> Read back through all these posts...your answer is in many of them. No point in reposting over and over again.


So don't repost. If no one wants to respond they won't respond. Simple.


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## MadLab

Not gonna get into a crate discussion but just to let you know some people don't use them. 

I don't, have 5 dogs in my house, with no problems. I prefer to sort issues as they arise rather than crate and rotate. I can see why crate and rotate is necessary sometimes but i can also see how they are misused and the dogs issues simply get crated and not resolved.

Discipline is more important than a crate imo.


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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> Not gonna get into a crate discussion but just to let you know some people don't use them.
> 
> I don't, have 5 dogs in my house, with no problems. I prefer to sort issues as they arise rather than crate and rotate. I can see why crate and rotate is necessary sometimes but i can also see how they are misused and the dogs issues simply get crated and not resolved.
> 
> Discipline is more important than a crate imo.


Lol you ARE getting into a crate discussion. Yeah that's what I'm asking. He's already 9 months old, is not destroying anything and has a place to be isolated when I'm gone. 

To me it would only make sense if he doesn't get anxious in the crate, like right now he digs at my floor. But I don't know how the crate will eliminate that. He will just hurt himself digging in the crate. 


I'm buying one though))))) will probably end up folding it and putting it away or selling it as I did with the first one.


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## MadLab

No I'm not. lol 

The floor is gonna be expensive to fix.


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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> No I'm not. lol
> 
> The floor is gonna be expensive to fix.


Nope)))) I know how to lay, sand and polish floors and I replaced a few planks in my other room. I know how to do many weird things lol


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## MadLab

Not so bad so, still I don't like a dog scratching anxiously

Have had dogs who like to scratch the floor though.

If they are just thinking they are making their bed I don't mind


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## lalachka

MadLab said:


> Not so bad so, still I don't like a dog scratching anxiously
> 
> Have had dogs who like to scratch the floor though.
> 
> If they are just thinking they are making their bed I don't mind


That's what I'm trying to say. It's not the fact that the floor is messed up that's bothering me, I can fix it. It's the anxiety that's causing him to do it. 

Since we put the baby gate he hasn't scratched but we only left him for 20 mins. Will have to do more tests.


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## Baillif

lalachka said:


> Lol question. I'm already looking for a crate, waiting on answers from 2 coworkers before buying one at the store.
> I'm also rearranging my bedroom to make space for it.
> 
> But can you remind me again why I need a crate? I saw Noah's thread and him saying his dog will be sleeping in his bed soon and Dani saying that her dog is 2 years old or whatever and she's only now starting to trust him around the house and letting him sleep out of the crate.
> 
> My boy has been sleeping in my room from day 1 and never destroyed anything. I even leave my door open so he can go in and out and still nothing. Except the cats we have no problems with him destroying stuff.
> 
> 
> So why do I need a crate? I'm not arguing, as I said, I'm preparing my room for a crate, just not sure what I will get out of it.


On top of everything already mentioned you have to consider a few things, and this is more or less how my trainer would have explained it to me. While you are trying to create value for your play interaction together with your dog, it will require you keep him bored. Those hours of play you are having with your dog, while not great for his focus and attention during play, are probably going a long way towards preventing him from going out of his way to find other fun things to do in your house that are potentially destructive. You don't want him learning that destroying your house is fun he can use to substitute for his cut down play time.

In general anytime you leave a dog alone in the house you are running the risk of him learning something you don't want him to when you aren't around, like how to raid the trashcan, or counter surfing, or clawing or biting at the drapes. He already learned to dig into the floor, you don't want him learning something even more destructive like how to eat a hole through drywall. I've seen pictures where Zebu's mom tore a hole in the wall to make a nesting site for her pups. You don't want that. It is a good place to leave your dog and let him chill out without the worry in the back of your head that you have to be keeping a close eye on him. On top of that if you ever join a sport club or start seeing a trainer they'll expect you to have one and bring it with you.


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## lalachka

But we don't leave him loose when we are not home and probably never will because of our cats, so he's always locked in. 

And when I'm home I like having him around, I wouldn't crate him anyway when I'm home. 

I was only getting the baby gates because he was digging when left alone and I thought being able to see outside will make him feel less anxious and not try to dig his way into my room and out of the hallway. 


I'm getting the crate, but I can already predict it will suffer the faith of my original one)))))

As far as crating to build drive - I wouldn't be able to. I'm way too soft for that. I'd feel bad 5 mins in lolol


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## lalachka

I saw your addon about the walls. Wow, that's not a dog, that's a croc. 

If I ever see him going at the walls he will be crated. But wouldn't he just bite and dig at the crate? The anxiety is still there. 

Besides, no drywall here, if he makes a hole in this wall he's a special dog. But I see your point.


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## Cassidy's Mom

If you don't want to crate train, don't crate train. Here are the reasons why I do crate train:

1. Housebreaking - so much easier with a crate than without one.

2. A safe place to put the puppy when I can't directly supervise, such as cooking, cleaning, eating meals, showering, etc. Puppy is safe from getting into things that can potentially harm or even kill it (chewing and ingesting toys or bedding or furniture), and my things are safe from being destroyed.

3. Leaving my dogs at the vet - they're used to hanging out in a crate, so they're less stressed.

4. Travel - it's much easier to take my dogs places if they are crate trained. Many hotels don't allow dogs to be left alone in the room unless they're crated. I've had to stay in hotels several times for flyball tournaments.

5. Practically any sport will require that your dog be crated at some point. Agility, flyball, Schutzhund, nosework, and more.

6. I have cats. I've had GSDs and cats together for 28 years, and none of them have ever injured any of the others, partly because I make sure that they're not loose together when we're not home.

7. Our dogs, at 8 and nearly 5, still sleep in their crates in our bedroom at night, even though they don't _need_ to, because I want to be able to sleep in on non-work days. They wait quietly and patiently in their crates until I get up on the weekend, no matter how late, instead of poking me in the eye with a wet nose at 5:40, which is when I get up for work. 

If your dog is housebroken, past the age of destructive chewing, it never wakes you up for no reason in the middle of the night, you don't have other pets that could possibly be at risk of harm, you will never leave it at the vet for any reason (what about surgery?), and will never travel to a hotel or stay at a friend or relative's house with your dog or participate in any sport or activity, then you probably don't need a crate.


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## lalachka

The only 2 that might be a problem are the vet and the sport (I doubt I will ever do it but never know). Everything else doesn't apply. 

As far as the vet, he won't stay there without me, in the crate or out of a crate. He will throw a fit. He won't stay anywhere without me. 

I'm hoping he outgrows this. 


I should've crated him when I first got him, I will crate my next dog. So I'm not arguing about crating in general. 

I'm just not sure how it will help me at this point. That's why I was asking. 

A few days ago it seemed like a good idea and I made space for it and shopping for it but then I realized that my problem (leaving him alone) won't be solved.


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## JakodaCD OA

Well you'll be in real big trouble if he gets really sick and HAS to stay at a vet's office or croak if he doesn't'..

I think your problem is, you humanize this dog to much, he's not a human, he may not 'like' the crate, and it probably will take longer than 1 day, or even a week for him to get used to it, but it's a useful tool, and it won't work unless you try it..

unfortunately I still you see you asking asking asking when you should be doing doing doing


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> Well you'll be in real big trouble if he gets really sick and HAS to stay at a vet's office or croak if he doesn't'..
> 
> I think your problem is, you humanize this dog to much, he's not a human, he may not 'like' the crate, and it probably will take longer than 1 day, or even a week for him to get used to it, but it's a useful tool, and it won't work unless you try it..
> 
> unfortunately I still you see you asking asking asking when you should be doing doing doing


???? How do you know I'm not doing?


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## Baillif

His mom ate drywall and dug a hole into the ground through a hardwood floor to make her own whelping box. Zebu ate a shaving razor about a month and a half ago he got out of a travel bag that was left on the bedroom floor. Chewed up a 3 bladed razor and then swallowed it. He had never chewed up anything he wasn't supposed to up to that point and then when I wasn't watching for a few minutes while I went to the bathroom he downed it and came up to me chewing on the safety cap plastic. 150 dollar x rays confirmed they were in his small intestine but I had already preemptively fed soft dogfood and bread to cushion it and keep it from cutting. It passed without incident and strangely he didn't even have any cuts in his mouth but still. It could have been bad. Weirdly enough he hasn't tried to chew up anything since then although he would go after my furry house shoes if he had a shot at them. My trainer himself had a dog eat a avocado pit and had to have a 1500 surgery to remove it. Both of these cases were the first time the dog had ever shown this kind of behavior. You shouldn't adopt a wait and see attitude with a dog that young. 

Zebu likes his crates. He's got travel crates and crates kept in the bedroom and computer room. If we enter a room with a crate he will usually jump into it without being told, even if I call him right back out of it again. If he gets too hot hanging out on the bed he will plop down into it or even if he just needs some peace. If he gets sick to his stomach and needs to puke he will usually do it in the crate and its super easy to clean up so that is nice too.


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## JakodaCD OA

because your posting here 24/7


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> because your posting here 24/7


That just speaks to how fast I am. I do many things besides posting and reading here. It takes me under a minute for most posts. And some time to read some threads. 

Not even close to how much time you think I spend here. I'm always signed in because I post from my phone. And I get a notification for new posts.


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## JakodaCD OA

there are 55 pages to this thread, what have you accomplished with your dog with all the advice you've received? Just curious


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## lalachka

A razor??? Omg how did he not hurt himself both swallowing and passing it?

But this just means that no matter if you crate or not your if can get in trouble ))))))))

I'm still going to buy it, never know, I might actually go trough with it this time. 

But there are many opportunities for them to hurt themselves, crate or not.


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> there are 55 pages to this thread, what have you accomplished with your dog with all the advice you've received? Just curious


I'll make you a deal, I will reply and then uu stop telling me to stop asking questions. I don't want be rude but it's becoming harder and harder to stay polite. I shouldn't have to explain myself to anyone. If you don't want to reply and think you're wasting your time then don't. If there are rules that limit the number of questions I can ask - I can understand that too. 

But it's annoying having people tell me what they think I do and what I don't do. 

It's a simple concept, I can't teach my dog anything I don't know myself. I must teach myself first. This is how I learn. 

Some people go to school and others ask questions. I ask questions.


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## Baillif

He wasn't being managed when it happened is my point. I've been far more strict on crating him when I'm not paying attention since.


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## JakodaCD OA

your post just answered my question.


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## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> your post just answered my question.


No, you think it answered it. It makes you feel better to believe that. For some reason my threads annoy you and you're trying to find something to hold against me. 

But you will see what you want to see so yeah, we can leave it at this.


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## JakodaCD OA

You didn't answer my question, so I got my answer..I guess what annoys me is, and I'll tell you since you feel that way, is , I think you have a nice dog who has a handler that has gotten tons of good advice & suggestions, yet I see nothing from your posts that your dog has improved or YEAH he DID THIS TODAY and it was GREAT! or I TRIED THIS TODAY and WOW it worked!

You can ask all you want here, you can talk/post all you want here, I guess I just don't see you 'learning' anything, which is to bad. 

I guess it annoys me that so many people have 'given' to this thread wanting to help your dog, and you, and I don't see any posts from you with any results..

and yes we can leave it at that, because I for one, am going out to take my wonderful dog for a nice walk


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## lalachka

Lol I'm also going out in a little while. You must be skipping lots of stuff in my threads or you'd know we go out for 2-3 hours every night, between 10pm and 2am. 

And I did tell you that I would answer your question if you promise to stop telling me to stop asking questions. 

And I do come back and say things like 'OK I tried this but then this problem came up'. Almost every day I came back here with problems I encountered while trying stuff out. If anything this makes me dumb but you can't say I don't try out anything I'm advised. 

And I did post things like 'I stood on the corner for a half hour waiting for people and dogs to pass and he didn't bark'. And more. 

I don't blame you missing these things in this huge thread but then don't say that I don't try things. You can't possibly know what I do. I also have a full time job. Somehow I squeeze that in between the 24/7 posts as well.


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## lalachka

I was trying to spare everyone with the results and only posted issues but apparently I shouldn't've. 


So here it goes

Baillif, I tried your agitation technique, I didn't have anyone to hold him so I tied him up but it worked. He was going crazy trying to get to a tug he ignored a few mins ago

Many people suggested that I'm boring him by doing the same routine over and over for hours so now i do a few mins of each, stop before he's tired of it and then walk around, play with him, do commands. It's not a 100% yet but it's already easier to keep him engaged. Working on other ideas for games

Someone suggested tracking games so we added that to our routine. Not going too well but that's probably my fault. He checks out almost right away. 
Once I tried throwing food around and have him find it and he'd do that non stop. When I tried the 'real' tracking games from the net (giving him two fists and one has food) he'd do it a few times and check out. Will try diff ones. 

Thank you for the COME ideas. I put my own twist on it but it's going amazing. He comes almost every time. Instead of tying him up and agitating him I tell him to sit, stay, then walk away, wait a few seconds to build him up and then say COmE and he runs!!!!!

This came from the trainer but I was pushed to get the trainer by people here so I guess it counts. We are doing really well with barking and lunging. 
Sometimes I don't catch it in time and he gets in the zone but most of the time I'm able to have dogs and people go by with no barks. 


Do I really have to do this for people to feel like they're not wasting their time? I can't imagine anyone being interested in reading this so I was sparing you from the details. 

I can go on and on about how amazing my dog is and everything he does right. I couldn't see how anyone would care. 



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## Baillif

Tying him to an actual post works just as good if not better, the only way it isn't better is he can get tangled in the line, but if he is out at the end of it trying to get at you this doesn't usually happen. On the positive side if you tie him down to something that won't move then you don't have to worry about him pulling the person holding him back slightly forward and then you misjudging the angles.

Glad you're having some success. Just remember. Having something kills wanting it. Losing something creates wanting it. Not easily being able to access something that is wanted creates value.


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## lalachka

It's amazing that you always bring up things without me mentioning. 

Since he's on leash 24/7 I used to tie him to me but then his husky friend would jet by and they'd drag me all over the place while getting tangled up in the line. 

Also, I couldn't really do the flirt with him the way I wanted to because I always had to be careful not to get tangled up. I mentioned this here and people said no one ever gets tangled while playing a flirt on a long line. 

How??? You're going in a circle and so is the dog. How will the line not get tangled around your feet and with the flirt line?? 

Anyway, now I tie him to a tree and play with him. But last night he jetted for a dog a my leg got caught up in it and i fell. 

So yeah, constant problems with the long line. But I love having the ability to reel him in from whatever he's doing. I don't trust him to be loose outside yet. 


Anyway, thank you very much. I'm sure you already knew that but I try out everything you mentioned (except the crate and that's coming up). 

Some things work better than others but i do try them all. 

And yes, I will try remembering that. I know that in theory but it's hard to implement when I'm scrambling for things to do during our 3 hours outside. 

At home I have no problem doing it but I do have the routine of us going out every day at night for a few hours at a time and I don't want to break it. 



Also, thank you for the leash pressure. I forgot to say it but closing my eyes and not moving (so not to lure) makes it MUCH easier. He still pulls sometimes but we just started working on it. 

Do you know how long it takes? I just want to have a guideline, like if in a month he's pulling then maybe I'm doing something wrong. 


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## lalachka

Also, his feet ALWAYS get tangled up no matter what we are doing. I'm always watching and every few mins I'm untangling him. I can't imagine no one else having this problem. It's impossible to run around on a line and not get tangled up. 


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## Baillif

When you tie him up don't run around him run at the edge of his line where he has it fully stretched out. It also helps if you tie him off on something with some height.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> When you tie him up don't run around him run at the edge of his line where he has it fully stretched out. It also helps if you tie him off on something with some height.


Ohhhh lol OK I didn't think of that. Can't wait to try this))))) it's been a huge pain having him on the line

Omg, thank you for the height suggestion, that would be perfect, I will be trying this tonight. Not sure how I will get up there, I see what you mean, if it was almost at the height of the leash them he'd have the radius to run around but the leash would stay up. 


Also, I'm definitely getting a crate. I'm painting and about to fix up the floor in a few parts and he's driving me crazy!!!! And he already has paint on his face










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## Baillif

Zebu jump - YouTube

Probably a good idea. That gate is higher than yours and he's a 7 monther.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> Zebu jump - YouTube
> 
> Probably a good idea. That gate is higher than yours and he's a 7 monther.


The gate you saw on the video is not the real gate, when he's alone that door would be closed. There's another door to the side with a real metal gate about the same height as yours. 
And he already jumped the lower gate. 

But I'm getting a crate. I just spent the whole day fixing the floor, he's not touching it again. 

Also, you're not scared to let your pup jump on that floor? Mine is constantly slipping when running. 


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## Baillif

It isn't slippery to dog paws I guess.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> It isn't slippery to dog paws I guess.


Lol my dog has dog paws as well. And I was warned to be careful on the wooden floors


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## Baillif

I think it's worse with lenolium but he's been exposed to unsure footing a lot from a young age so slipping wouldn't scare him. He loves slides specially when wet and he can really get going.


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## lalachka

Baillif said:


> I think it's worse with lenolium but he's been exposed to unsure footing a lot from a young age so slipping wouldn't scare him. He loves slides specially when wet and he can really get going.


My dog is not scared of slipping either, he jumps off high things and jets all over the house. 
I was told to not let him jump off things onto the wooden floor because his legs can slide to the sides (like a split) and that can cause HD. 

This did happen a few times when we just got him before we knew it was bad so now I don't let him jump off anything and run fast. 

No, linoleum is actually less slippery, at least in my experience. 

I might be too cautious with him, but I can't help it. 


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I'll make you a deal, I will reply and then uu stop telling me to stop asking questions. I don't want be rude but it's becoming harder and harder to stay polite. I shouldn't have to explain myself to anyone. If you don't want to reply and think you're wasting your time then don't. If there are rules that limit the number of questions I can ask - I can understand that too.
> 
> But it's annoying having people tell me what they think I do and what I don't do.
> 
> *It's a simple concept, I can't teach my dog anything I don't know myself. I must teach myself first. This is how I learn.
> *
> Some people go to school and others ask questions. I ask questions.


Sigh....I spent a *fair amount of time going over a few things on here with you, as did many many others(most way more than I)....I haven't read past this point, but I have a problem with the bolded part...take the crate for example...you were given SO many explanations, experienced advice, and knowledge about why a crate would benefit your dog....you agreed, that you should do it....give it a few days and you *literally* ask "why do I want a crate again?" 

Your dog has anxiety because you feed his anxiety....I *hate* anxious dogs....my dog that passed was an anxious, needy, dog, and I will never.ever.get another one....now, I loved my guy dearly....but I will never *knowingly make that mistake again (weak genes, needy/anxious nerves, etc). That being said, in your videos I do NOT see a dog that has true SA....of course I am not a vet or certifies dog language expert....but I see a spoiled brat dog, with no boundaries, that gets away with murder, and an owner that thinks it's cute...... I think it's terrible when a dog can't handle being in a crate and the owner feeds into it. As many have pointed out, there are situations that your dog will need to see a crate, and the older he gets the worse that is going to be *for him*. 

You keep saying that you can't teach the dog something you don't understand, I'm starting to think you don't really want to understand anything lol. You just want to play ring around the rosy and never really agree to anything or implement anything....what about the group training you want to attend? What if they want to work a few dogs at a time and crate the rest until it's their turn? Your dog is just going to have a freaking meltdown, digging at the crate, and carrying on.

My dog isn't allowed out of the crate at night because I just don't want to think in my mind "what's he doing?" He's stayed at a friend's when we were out of town and never once saw a crate, and apparently he didn't chew anything....I don't care, as Jakoda pointed out, there are many reasons I like him in the crate....plus we train at a club and the dogs have to be crated some of the time and I will not be that member who's dog is spazzing out in the crate while everyone else is trying to train.

Anywho, people are starting to not give a fart about you or your dog because as I showed you above....the crate example....you get lots of advice...pages.of.advice....and then come back and say, "why am I doing that again?? I am probably not going to do it anyway..." Alright, then just stop asking for advice and train your dog how you want to train....it's been working great for you so far.


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## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Ohhhh lol OK I didn't think of that. Can't wait to try this))))) it's been a huge pain having him on the line
> 
> Omg, thank you for the height suggestion, that would be perfect, I will be trying this tonight. Not sure how I will get up there, I see what you mean, if it was almost at the height of the leash them he'd have the radius to run around but the leash would stay up.
> 
> 
> Also, I'm definitely getting a crate. I'm painting and about to fix up the floor in a few parts and he's driving me crazy!!!! And he already has paint on his face
> 
> View attachment 117442
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Should have read to the end, glad you are getting a crate...still stand by my statement that it's frustrating and ridiculous for you to get pages of advice and then come back a few days later and say, "okay why did you advise me to do that again?" But, glad you are getting a crate and some of the methods are working for you.


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Should have read to the end, glad you are getting a crate...still stand by my statement that it's frustrating and ridiculous for you to get pages of advice and then come back a few days later and say, "okay why did you advise me to do that again?" But, glad you are getting a crate and some of the methods are working for you.


I saw the advice, what I was asking is how it was going to benefit me at 9 months. 

I know the reasons for crating and I agree with them, I should've stuck with it when he was small. 
What I was asking is what benefit will I get from it with him being 9 months old and us not having any problems with him not crated except leaving him alone. 

He digs at the floor when left alone so I was afraid that when crated he will just hurt himself chewing on the wires. 
So I was asking how the crate was solving my problems (leaving him alone). 

I should've chosen different words seeing how a few people got riled up about it. 


As far as me asking questions. If anyone thinks it's a waste and that I don't do anything with the advice - then stop replying. 

Just because I don't do exactly as I'm told doesn't mean the advice is wasted. I get people's opinions and use them to help me decide. I'm not going to blindly follow


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## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Should have read to the end, glad you are getting a crate...still stand by my statement that it's frustrating and ridiculous for you to get pages of advice and then come back a few days later and say, "okay why did you advise me to do that again?" But, glad you are getting a crate and some of the methods are working for you.


I reread the crating advice before posting. It was a bad choice of words. 

As far as methods working for me, that list is what I remembered off the top of my head. I'm using much more stuff from here (flirt pole came from this forum, for example and that made me also think to put a ball on a string, he loves it!!). 

However, every time I'm doing anything a bunch of questions and problems come up. I can get 10 trainers and I will still have questions. 
What's wrong with that? I like learning things, understanding why things work, why things are done one way and not the other and so on. 

It doesn't mean that I'm putting our training on hold while getting answers, no, I just want to know. 

I spend at least 2 hours with him outside every day but usually more. Where are people getting the idea that I'm not doing anything? I'm curious. 


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## MadLab

I think it is good that you are not opening loads of threads and just dealing with your queries in this one thread. Funny people complaining about it. Would people prefer everybody comes here and opens a thread and never comes back to it. For me that is usually the case or people opens various threads that each get a few replies? 

Maybe the title should be renamed Lala chat thread lol


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## Castlemaid

I think this has been going around in circles long enough, and is making everyone dizzy. Turning more into personal stuff than dog stuff. Let's put it to bed.


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