# Breeder BS, and the papers too??



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Just curious.....

The breeder that sold us our pup, told us, showed us our pup's dam and sire.

The sire claims to be the "world champion" Remo from Germany.
The papers indicate such as the case, and the breeder explain the whole "import / breeding" process.

I was wondering if there's a chance that "A" pup's papers could be fraudulent?

I feel that any breeder can claim to have a champion pup, show papers to support the claim, and sell you anything they want.

THIS dog, is supposedly our pup's sire:

Remo vom Fichtenschlag


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

your right any breeder can falsify papers, I couldn't say at all this is true in this case.

It looks like Remo is owned by Gunbil Kennels in Colorado? atleast thats what I get from the website..I think he's very handsome but don't know any more about him, have heard the name before, 

Im sure some with much more showline info will help with your question


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Remo supposedly lives in Germany. The Dam is owned by the kennel owner(s).

From what I gather, these kennel owners pay a premium to mate their dogs with these "champion SL" dogs.

I did meet the dam, and I did see a trail of paperwork leading to Remo ..in Germany.

I hate to be skeptical, but it just seems too easy to tell a prospective puppy owner anything they want.

Regardless.... we chose our pup for our own reasons, and that's all that matters


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

is it not the case that Remo's DNA is taken and on file.
you could always contact the owners of this Remo and verify a stud service to the dam of your litter 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I tend to like Carmen's idea,,you could email Gunbil (the site he is on and said to be owned by), and ask if he was 'bred' to so and so (name of your puppies dam)..

also would ask, you said he showed you the sire and dam,, as IN person or in pics?? IF it was 'in person' I'd ask if he is 'at' that particular kennel,


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Do you have some sort of reason to believe your puppy is from a fraudulant breeding?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> is it not the case that Remo's DNA is taken and on file.
> you could always contact the owners of this Remo and verify a stud service to the dam of your litter
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


That sounds like a good starting point.
How would someone go about doing this?

The link above is NOT where Remo lives. Remo is a German SL, Seiger word champion, and is in Germany.
Apparently, quite a few websites are showing Remo as their sire to their pups.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Do you have some sort of reason to believe your puppy is from a fraudulant breeding?



ABSOLUTELY 100% NO!

After meeting with and interviewing my breeder, I feel comfortable enough to believe him. Making false claims like that, could land someone in loads of trouble. I feel he don't have to make such claims to sell his pups. He had some beautiful dogs. If that's what people want, that's what they'll get. I don't think he has to claim any pup is a "select" pup to sell it.
People generally by what they like.

I'm just curious about some of the claims and marketing tactics used by some breeders.

This is an innocent topic, and I'm not making any accusations to anyone.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I tend to like Carmen's idea,,you could email Gunbil (the site he is on and said to be owned by), and ask if he was 'bred' to so and so (name of your puppies dam)..
> 
> also would ask, you said he showed you the sire and dam,, as IN person or in pics?? IF it was 'in person' I'd ask if he is 'at' that particular kennel,


Sorry, there was a typo. I met the Dam, not the Sire. The Sire is supposedly in Germany.

I become skeptical, when I see OTHER websites claiming to have Remo living in Colorado.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ahhh ok...and it's certainly NOT unusual that you wouldn't see the sire of a litter. 

I'm not sure the website 'claimed' he lived in colorado, tho I didn't look at it close enough,,I was getting the impression they "owned" him..but again that could be way off since I honestly don't know WHO owns him)

I do think it could be rather easy for any breeder to say this puppy came from,,,but a big breeder would be really stupid to try to pull something like that in my opinion..

OK I wanna see pics of the little girlie !!!!)


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Anthony,
Remo currently resides in Germany. Many breeders are breeding to the dog (Germany & foreign). There is no reason to doubt that "your" particular breeder has used him as stud. To register the breeding here, in the USA...the breeder will need to have a *certified document* from the SV, stating that the breeding did occur.
The stud dog owners must submit certificates to the SV for all breeding's to their dogs.
IF the litter was not sired by Remo (or any other stud dog registered/residing in Germany....no document will be issued, and the litter will not be registrable with AKC. (This is for foreign litter registrations).
Hope that helps somewhat answer your question....I tried to answer it as easily as possible.
*We occasionally have litters sired from stud dogs in Germany, it is a process we must go through also.*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony you were asked if there was a reason to belief your dog was from a fraudulent breeding.

Your responsive is an emphatic ABSOLUTELY 100% NO.

But revisit your very first email entitled with a sceptical Breeder BS , and the papers too.

There you did say '-- The sire claims to be the "world champion" Remo from Germany.

The papers indicate such as the case, and the breeder explain the whole "import / breeding" process.

I was wondering if there's a chance that "A" pup's papers could be fraudulent?

I feel that any breeder can claim to have a champion pup, show papers to support the claim, and sell you anything they want.

THIS dog, is supposedly our pup's sire: and the sire claims to be and you are wondering if the papers could be fraudulent -------------

which is not the same as 100% confident that he is the sire. This dog is SUPPOSEDLY our pup's sire.


That is why by contacting the sire's owners you will know if a stud service to the dam of your pup did take place.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Anthony,
> Remo currently resides in Germany. Many breeders are breeding to the dog (Germany & foreign). There is no reason to doubt that "your" particular breeder has used him as stud. To register the breeding here, in the USA...the breeder will need to have a *certified document* from the SV, stating that the breeding did occur.
> The stud dog owners must submit certificates to the SV for all breeding's to their dogs.
> IF the litter was not sired by Remo (or any other stud dog registered/residing in Germany....no document will be issued, and the litter will not be registrable with AKC. (This is for foreign litter registrations).
> ...


Thanks for clearing this up for me.

We never doubted OUR breeder, we wondered how the process of having a German champion dog, become the sire to so many pups in the U.S. took place.
A google search tells me that Mr. Remo is a busy man


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Since that is a German Showline Dog bred via the SV it is very hard to falsify the papers. It's not impossible but very hard because the DNA is taken, they are microchipped have the pink papers etc. 
Robin already explained the process. 

If your breeder is in the WUSV and he did indeed stud to Remo than you will receive the papers for that pup as well. If he is breeding to the WUSV standard your dog should either be microchipped or have a Tattoo in his ear and usually every SV Dogs DNA is taken. My dog is from Austria. She is chipped, DNA tested and has the pink papers. 





Anthony8858 said:


> Just curious.....
> 
> The breeder that sold us our pup, told us, showed us our pup's dam and sire.
> 
> ...


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony you were asked if there was a reason to belief your dog was from a fraudulent breeding.
> 
> Your responsive is an emphatic ABSOLUTELY 100% NO.
> 
> ...


I wasn't referring to my breeder. Sorry if I came off that way.

In pursuit of our pup, we spoke to numerous breeders. Some of the BS stories we heard made us laugh, and some concerned us.

For instance, we spoke to one breeder that said that she would spay our pup at 8 weeks, so SHE could be 100% SURE that we don't breed HER SL dog!! Her justification was that she paid 10's of thousands of dollars for her Sire and Dam, and why should anyone have the privilege of having her pups for so much less.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Also....I looked at your breeder's website.
It "states" that they have a kennel here AND in Germany. This would make complete sense on foreign breedings....and quite easy.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Anthony8858 said:


> The sire claims to be the "world champion" Remo from Germany.


I'm sorry, but did anybody else get a mental picture of a big hairy black and red dog walking up to the OP, shaking his hand, and saying, "Hello, I'm Remo, the world champion from Germany"?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Since that is a German Showline Dog bred via the SV it is very hard to falsify the papers. It's not impossible but very hard because the DNA is taken, they are microchipped have the pink papers etc.
> Robin already explained the process.
> 
> If your breeder is in the WUSV and he did indeed stud to Remo than you will receive the papers for that pup as well. If he is breeding to the WUSV standard your dog should either be microchipped or have a Tattoo in his ear and usually every SV Dogs DNA is taken. My dog is from Austria. She is chipped, DNA tested and has the pink papers.


Yes, this was explained to us. And the pup is micro chipped.

Thanks for explaining.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm sorry, but did anybody else get a mental picture of a big hairy black and red dog walking up to the OP, shaking his hand, and saying, "Hello, I'm Remo, the world champion from Germany"?


^^^^

A good indication that it's time to end the thread


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

This is the wierdest thread ever-and that is saying something-now someone will probably yell at me oh well


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anthony, it's not at all unusual for bitches to be shipped to Germany for breeding. So just because the listed sire of a litter isn't here and the dam IS, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's a common enough practice that it shouldn't raise any eyebrows at all.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Yes, this was explained to us. And the pup is micro chipped.
> 
> Thanks for explaining.


Then you should have gotten the vaccination papers and the microchip number the day you picked up the pup.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Anthony, it's not at all unusual for bitches to be shipped to Germany for breeding. So just because the listed sire of a litter isn't here and the dam IS, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's a common enough practice that it shouldn't raise any eyebrows at all.


 
Thank you, and my apology if I insulted or if you felt that I insinuated that there was any wrong doing in my transcation.

The conversation came up over a cup of coffee, when someone in the room asked "how do I know it's the dog on the papers"?

I thought I'd throw it out there.
Again, sorry if I came across the wrong way.

Anyway... She sniffed out a bowl of left over food on the kitchen counter, and just sat there waiting for it to miraculously land in front of her 

Here's an updated pic:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

holland said:


> This is the wierdest thread ever-and that is saying something-now someone will probably yell at me oh well


:nono:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Thank you, and my apology if I insulted or if you felt that I insinuated that there was any wrong doing in my transcation.
> 
> The conversation came up over a cup of coffee, when someone in the room asked "how do I know it's the dog on the papers"?
> 
> ...


Wow. If it's the little white one I would do some serious checking on it's sire.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Wow. If it's the little white one I would do some serious checking on it's sire.


 
LOL..


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> Sorry, there was a typo. I met the Dam, not the Sire. The Sire is supposedly in Germany.
> 
> I become skeptical, when I see OTHER websites claiming to have Remo living in Colorado.


So I am confused about what your question is, are you asking about the breeder you linked to in your OP?
I do not see anywhere in that link that claims that Remo is living in Colorado? It also does not say anywhere that that breeder owns him. Remo is not listed on their "stud dogs" page or anything, I think he was just a dog they bred one of their dams to.

Or were you asking why Remo is listed on so many breeders' sites? If he is a "world champion" that is why. A lot of champions become very popular as stud dogs, and end up being found in many pedigrees because everyone wants to breed to them. Either the sire/dam might be shipped to the other for the breeding, or in some cases they use frozen semen for a breeding. My dog's dam was shipping to Canada (where the stud's breeder lived) for the breeding and IIRC my dog was born there (in Canada) even though her breeder was actually in the US. Then later her dam was exported to Germany.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> So I am confused about what your question is, are you asking about the breeder you linked to in your OP?
> I do not see anywhere in that link that claims that Remo is living in Colorado? It also does not say anywhere that that breeder owns him. Remo is not listed on their "stud dogs" page or anything, I think he was just a dog they bred one of their dams to.
> 
> Or were you asking why Remo is listed on so many breeders' sites? If he is a "world champion" that is why. A lot of champions become very popular as stud dogs, and end up being found in many pedigrees because everyone wants to breed to them. Either the sire/dam might be shipped to the other for the breeding, or in some cases they use frozen semen for a breeding. My dog's dam was shipping to Canada (where the stud's breeder lived) for the breeding and IIRC my dog was born there (in Canada) even though her breeder was actually in the US. Then later her dam was exported to Germany.


All questions have been addressed. Thanks.

Enjoy the happy photos


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

very CUTE!! and so is the little white dawg


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Remo is a TOP (I think he was Sieger this year!! ) Showline male and he is in Germany!

Many people import bred females, purchase entire litters and import them and send females to Germany or other European countries to be bred. It is not that unusual....

At least one other member here (I **THINK**) have Remo progeny - amauro has a young male....

Gunbil is a very commercial kennel with lots of importing etc going on....I doubt they own Remo....I remember looking at their site a few time due to posts here...and it is a very strong marketing site....

It often takes a while to get litter papers on an import - so don't be too alarmed or paranoid about the lack of papers at 8 weeks.

Lee


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

i live in colorado and have visited that kennel on my long search for the perfect puppy. those are great people and would have no reason to believe your dog would NOT be from the dog they said it would be.
in regards to the "general" question-a breeder could put some BS papers together and attempt to sway someone who DIDN'T know what to look for. but if you were looking at breeder with pricey dogs i should hope that you know what legit papers look like.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

MicheleMarie said:


> i live in colorado and have visited that kennel on my long search for the perfect puppy. those are great people and would have no reason to believe your dog would NOT be from the dog they said it would be.
> in regards to the "general" question-a breeder could put some BS papers together and attempt to sway someone who DIDN'T know what to look for. but if you were looking at breeder with pricey dogs i should hope that you know what legit papers look like.


 
YES, please and for the sake of that other breeder. I NEVER said that breeder offered the pup.

I bought my pup from a local breeder, who provided papers, chip, etc, that Remo is in fact the Sire.

I was questioning whether or not OTHER breeders would capitalize on the publicity of such a dog, and use the recognition to market their pups.

My personal experience with some breeders, is that many say that their dogs have championship background.

Again, I am in NO WAY implying that there was any wrong doing inthe purchase of my pup.

And I did NOT get my pup from the website that I linked. I provided that link as a way to show who "Remo" was.


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> YES, please and for the sake of that other breeder. I NEVER said that breeder offered the pup.
> 
> I bought my pup from a local breeder, who provided papers, chip, etc, that Remo is in fact the Sire.
> 
> ...


 
completely understand 

btw-the puppy is such a little furry ball of cute


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gunbil does not own Remo (I don't think the OP said that but a few posters seem to have inferred that). If I remember correctly their site is like a "database" of showline dogs and pedigrees.


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