# Help with Forced Hold



## jtaylor20 (Feb 25, 2016)

Hello,

Seeking advice to progress the forced hold command. I am using a PVC pipe to start the training. 


My dog has really picked up on biting the PVC pipe. As soon as he bites it, he looks for the reward and drops it. He has no problem biting it, he just immediately drops it and looks for the reward. 

Any tips on increasing the duration of the hold. Thanks in advance.

Josh Taylor


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I gently hold the muzzle shut for a second or two to start, then slowly increase time.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd change a couple of things first, before you worry about duration. I'd put it in his mouth, not let him take it and then out him. Its all about doing what you say. If he drops it, you would correct him when its out of his mouth, put it back in and calmly praise.


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## jtaylor20 (Feb 25, 2016)

Thanks for the advice. We had a mini-session this morning outside. Got some work to do. He was more interested in playing than training. Going to start in the house this time with no distractions.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

First off how old is your dog?
If he is in that 5 to 7 month old range he may still have a sore mouth from teething and you may need to hold off a bit more. 

PVC is hard for some dogs to hold and will make the process of teaching hold much a much harder process. My suggestion would be to use a paint roller to start with. Not sure why but for some reason a lot of dogs just like to carry them and it helps in teaching a new concept when it's something they enjoy doing. As a gun dog trainer a solid hold and delivery to hand is pivotal in my training. If you have a dog that takes the object willingly then I'm not one to muddy the waters trying to place the object myself unless I'm correcting the hold and its position. I'll post a link to a little fun hold session with a Cocker Spaniel that I did. It may help. Also placing the dog on a elevated surface always seems to help with focus.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If your looking to do an IPO style retrieve, its a little different because of what is judged. As much as possible you want the grip on a hard object maintained. The idea of the pvc or wood isn't to let them hold something they like. Its to show them you will hold something you don't like. When you add all the control and remember where the retrieves are in a routine, even in motivational retrieves, the hold has to be mandatory. He needs to know all through the 3 retrieves to hold something that's not comfortable. 

Some dogs end up liking the dumbell as much as any other toy, but hold is taught differently for this then you would do it with a hunt style retrieve and softer mouthed dogs.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> If your looking to do an IPO style retrieve, its a little different because of what is judged. As much as possible you want the grip on a hard object maintained. The idea of the pvc or wood isn't to let them hold something they like. Its to show them you will hold something you don't like. When you add all the control and remember where the retrieves are in a routine, even in motivational retrieves, the hold has to be mandatory. He needs to know all through the 3 retrieves to hold something that's not comfortable.
> 
> Some dogs end up liking the dumbell as much as any other toy, but hold is taught differently for this then you would do it with a hunt style retrieve and softer mouthed dogs.



I think you may have missed my point. 
The op is trying to teach his dog hold. I understand what will be used in testing will be different, but right now he is teaching a concept not training a discipline. Once hold is established training with PVC will become much easier. 

Trial and test dogs in the hunt world are very much judged on hold and delivery as well as carry. No dog likes to carry a rank test bird that's blowing out feathers but hold, delivery and carry must all be correct none the less. 

If the PVC is an added distraction from learning the concept remove it and come back to it once the concept is established.


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## jtaylor20 (Feb 25, 2016)

Thanks for all of the advice. Dog is almost 2 years. I am looking for IPO style, but not planning on competing with this dog. Maybe my next dog(my first GSD).


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## jtaylor20 (Feb 25, 2016)

Awesome video


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But its not just a concept though Clay. It is a discipline. The object matters. Its not the same.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> But its not just a concept though Clay. It is a discipline. The object matters. Its not the same.


Everything you teach is a concept, you train a command and you formalize a discipline. Yes the object matters when you train and when you formalize for judging purposes or for working purposes, teaching a concept you can remove variables that are causing issues an add them as the concept becomes a command. When I'm done with condition to hold, fetch, fetch no fetch and pile lining the dog knows exactly what and how to hold, but the dog would also fetch and properly hold a rabid porcupine if I asked him to. Again I never said the object doesn't matter, just if the dog does not have a grasp of the basic concept and the object is preventing a smooth transition to hold, then remove the object and introduce it later after light has been switched on in the dogs head to the concept. 
IPO or not the training may be different but the concept is basic and exactly the same.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ok.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

Because I asked him to...
Every dog and every day I train, I learn something new.....
I hope this is always true.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with this - start by teaching a concept, then bring in the discipline and the specific exercises that the dog will need to do. 

I also noticed from experience and from seeing club members work the hold over the years, that bringing in discipline early on, brings a lot of conflict and stress into the exercise, making for a chewy-sloppy hold, and avoidance of the handler - the dog will pick up and present and hold, but avoid looking at the handler, or trying to avoid the hands coming up to take a hold of the dumbbell.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Clay Hill said:


> Because I asked him to...
> Every dog and every day I train, I learn something new.....
> I hope this is always true.


How do you teach the dog to grab in the middle of a lengthy pole? My boy knows the hold command for his ball and his light metal food dish so after seeing this thread, I took a hollow aluminum pole and worked him with it. He doesn't like the feel but a lamb bribe does wonders. 

But he kept trying to pick it up from the end. What I did was grabbed the pole in the middle with about a foot of space between my hands while the pole was on the ground and encouraged him to grab between my hands. He did quite well but I don't think he connected the reason I did that.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

Heartandsoul said:


> How do you teach the dog to grab in the middle of a lengthy pole? My boy knows the hold command for his ball and his light metal food dish so after seeing this thread, I took a hollow aluminum pole and worked him with it. He doesn't like the feel but a lamb bribe does wonders.
> 
> But he kept trying to pick it up from the end. What I did was grabbed the pole in the middle with about a foot of space between my hands while the pole was on the ground and encouraged him to grab between my hands. He did quite well but I don't think he connected the reason I did that.


In gun dog training proper carry and delivery to hand are both judged in trialing and testing. The dog gets use to me correcting to a proper hold during table work and during walking hold sessions. (Note manual corrections of the bumper and it's placement)
I'm not getting on to the dog when I do this just correcting the position. The dog will get voice praise only after I've corrected a bad hold not before. Eventually they just get in the habit. Adding a make shift disk on each end will promote a center hold in tge beginning. In my training I'm not concerned with center as much as I am balanced hold. I use the long 5 foot PVC for this purpose. I have lead filled bean bags that I will put in it later on to off center the balance. A gun dog that retrieves it's game in a proper balanced position is less likely to drop it while making its way through thick cover allowing for clean retrieves to hand.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks for the explanation. Although I don't do formal trials or anything, I love learning and trying new things to teach him. The pic you posted got my brain working.


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## jtaylor20 (Feb 25, 2016)

*Forced Hold Attempt*

Here is a video of what we have been doing. Comment and let me know what you all think. Good or Bad. Thanks in advance, maybe this video will help others.


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