# Big shepherded Vs Little Shepherd



## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Okay I went to the dog park yesterday to hangout with some friends and we came across the discussion about what's the correct size for German shepherds. I read that back when German shepherds was originated they were big that was my argument and the other gentlemen said no German shepherds are suppose to be 70 pounds and under which argument is true??!!!! because I read once German shepherds came to America they was breed out of its original size


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

My last female never got to 70 lbs and she was an American bred. ( purebred)


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Oh boy. Hold onto your hat!
opcorn:


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Kahrg4 said:


> Oh boy. Hold onto your hat!


I know right lol !!!


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Sorry, I misread what you originally posted. I've owned 7 GSDs in my lifetime and many of them were over 70 pounds, especially the males.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Okay I went to the dog park yesterday to hangout with some friends and we came across the discussion about what's the correct size for German shepherds. I read that back when German shepherds was originated they were big that was my argument and the other gentlemen said no German shepherds are suppose to be 70 pounds and under which argument is true??!!!! because I read once German shepherds came to America they was breed out of its original size


 The German Shepherd is and always has been a medium sized dog. 
FCI Breed Standards - (SV) Size/weight*
Males: Withers height 60 cm to 65 cm; weight 30 kg to 40 kg- 66-88lbs
Females: Withers height 55 cm to 60 cm; weight 22 kg to 32 kg -48-70lbs

Any deviation from this standard is a fault, severity determined by to what extent it impedes the dogs ability to work.


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## master_blaster (Apr 2, 2015)

I don't know what they're supposed to be but my 1 year old male is 83 lbs and hasn't filled out yet, he's still skinny. Both his parents were large so we're expecting him to grow some more.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> The German Shepherd is and always has been a medium sized dog.
> FCI Breed Standards - (SV) Size/weight*
> Males: Withers height 60 cm to 65 cm; weight 30 kg to 40 kg- 66-88lbs
> Females: Withers height 55 cm to 60 cm; weight 22 kg to 32 kg -48-70lbs
> ...


My guy is "faulty" Over Size Working line GSD but he can still do his "job"...being a family pet...he's pretty good at it! :hug:


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Bella mom is 95 and her dad is 115 and they both are very healthy


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Bella mom is 95 and her dad is 115 and they both are very healthy


Both are grossly over standard. If you use the search function on this site, search..."king shepherds...oversize shepherds....old fashioned german shepherds..." You can see the general thoughts by working line people, show line people, pet people, etc...You will also see that such discussions sometimes went on for 20-35 pages.

I would personally agree with those at the park disagreeing with you. Shepherds aren't supposed to be pushing 100 pounds (or in a lot of the "oversize breeders" cases, well over 100 pounds). There are breeders capitalizing on the "bigger is better" mentality in America, and are pushing the "old fashioned" marketing scheme on many unsuspecting/unknowing pet people. Few (I would argue zero) from either the show world or the working world would ever go to a breeder that advertises "old fashioned/over sized" shepherds. Just my .02, which you can also find in one or two of the old threads on here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> Bella mom is 95 and her dad is 115 and they both are very healthy


Health really isn't the issue OS dogs are just to big to do the job.

A 100+ pounds of GSD is a lot of dog to move if you have to scale a cliff or lift into a tight space!


My guy is 116 lbs and a long dog relatively speaking. I'm pretty fit and I can't lift him. Other factors involved in the OS's dogs but that is one of them. 

There is no size restrictions on "pet's"









Boerboel 150lb+ (Boxer guy)

And "King" Shepard 








150lb not uncommon

You can choose a pet by the pound!


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Unrelated to the subject, BUT cute little girl Chip. /grins


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

My girl is oversized per the standard, however, she is not inhibited in work function at all and is highly athletic .. HOWEVER, if I have to log her 86lb bod far I will have issues, lol!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nikitta said:


> Unrelated to the subject, BUT cute little girl Chip. /grins


Molosser guy first..can't help it.:blush:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip,
_Health really isn't the issue OS dogs are just to big to do the job.

A 100+ pounds of GSD is a lot of dog to move if you have to scale a cliff or lift into a tight space!_

This is to true! At 85lbs, I can say from experience that lugging Sabi any distance sucked. We had to be able to lift and carry our dogs as part of our fitness test. To many times, I wished Sabs was just a bit lighter. 
But the reality is, a large dog is more prone to breaking down over time.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Midnite went up to just over 100 pounds. I put him on a diet, he is now right around 80 and looks really good IMO. My son thinks he is to skinny but admits that he is probably right where he should be.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Molosser guy first..can't help it.:blush:


Used to be a molosser guy too...I preferred Presa Canario...met many of them that I loved. Not for everyone. Like my GSD more though...something that exudes intelligence over brawn and more flexible in utility.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

eddie1976E said:


> Not for everyone.


Like "people" in San Francisco...



eddie1976E said:


> Like my GSD more though...something that exudes intelligence over brawn and more flexible in utility.


Yeah my GSD was a real eye opener, freaking brilliant the good part "and" High Rank drive and Human Aggression issues??? Yeah..."not" so good!!!!

Both "issues" new to me!!!!

I learned what "leadership" met with him (Who Pets my Puppy or Dog) and by doing that...I was "lucky" enough to see a dog that was both calm under pressure and a dog who "knew" when it was time to act! 

So I'm sold but I don't recommend them to "anyone" I know!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Midnite went up to just over 100 pounds. I put him on a diet, he is now right around 80 and looks really good IMO. My son thinks he is to skinny but admits that he is probably right where he should be.


Wow that's a "huge" change my guy is OS he weighed 116 at 18 months he got up to 125lbs 6 years ago... oops too much! 

Put him on a diet and now 6 years later still 116lbs so yep! 100% solid WL OS GSD.
He is what "my" standard of what a GSD should look like! But yeah I Understand the "job" description specs! And no argument on my part!

Pretty much any dog over the 90 pound marks is a tuff lift! And GSD are "long" dogs! My Boxer at 65 lbs (right on spec for a female) was an easy lift, my Bull Mastiff/APBT/Lab mix(Gunther) at 90lbs, not so much and he was not as long as Rocky GSD and Gunther moved like a Dump Truck! 

Rabbits had no fear of him! My boxer though...if rabbits crossed her path, it was game on!! 

If she was as intelligent as a GSD she would not have "always" fell for the quick dash in the brush and then back down onto the straight trick! Worked every time on her!! :blush: Still I did teach her to chase rabbits to North mountains and not the South Hwy. 


Different dog different breeds you can learn things about dogs from all of them.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

there really is no argument. either the gsd falls with in the standard or it doesnt. that being said, genetic mutation occurs on the upper and lower scale per the standard.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

The historical record shows that the gsd has not always been a medium sized dog. Study the German shepherd before 1930 and you find many that were "over-sized". After 1930, "over-size" studs could not be listed in the official stud registry - but many breeders kept breeding the "over-sized" German shepherds that continued to " work" (mainly herding) every day. And that is a fact - it is well recorded.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

a quick google search says you are correct. esp when max describes a natural stance when being shown, not stacked.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

I prefer "oversize" that's just me though


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> I prefer "oversize" that's just me though


Uh no it's not


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The difference and ease of movement is like night and day with Midnite. At 80 pounds he is still on the bigger side but overall he seems to feel better and I believe it's more healthy for him. When people see him they still think he is big, just not as big as he was.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Max v Stephanitz on conformation

"shy, weak nerved animals are to be marked as injurious to the breed, even as over-bred {over-size}*are not true to breed type*"


"oversize or bitch-like dogs and the fading of color coat are injurious from the point of view of breeding & are to be marked accordingly"












Does not look like a large dog to me


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

4 weeks ago my pup was 78 lbs and he'll be 8 months on 4/7.
His trainer said he will be full grown at 18 months and not to neuter him till then.
My question is this: I've heard that neutering stunts growth, and if that's true wouldn't it make sense to neuter a dog before it grows too big?
PS. The vet said we could neuter him at 12 months.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Findlay it doesn't stunt growth,but there are growth plates in their joints that aren't finished closing until 18 mths.It's best to neuter when that process is complete.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Findlay it doesn't stunt growth,but there are growth plates in their joints that aren't finished closing until 18 mths.It's best to neuter when that process is complete.


Thank you. That's good to know re growth plates.
We'll wait for the full 18 mos. before neutering Finn.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Findlay it doesn't stunt growth,but there are growth plates in their joints that aren't finished closing until 18 mths.It's best to neuter when that process is complete.


Does that go for females/spay too? My female is slightly oversize 26"atw and 70lbs 11mos old. I would like her to stay right where she is and my breeder said to try to keep her at around 70lbs.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I don't know what is best for females.Some say it's best to spay before the first heat because of an increased risk of certain types of cancer.But that conflicts with the concern about the growth plates!? Samson is a male so I never did more than skim over the spay info. when I was researching.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, if you neuter before the growth plates close, it can delay the closure and the long bones can grow longer, which will lead to a leggy dog, depending on how early with respect to the individual -- when that individual would have reached his adult height. If all GSDs grew at the same rate, reached adult height at say 18 months, then easy, neuter at 20 months and all is good. 

The problem is that they grow at different rates. 

If someone isn't breeding for oversized dogs, and I mean dogs that are well over 100#, if they are breeding dogs within, or slightly outside of the standard, they can still produce a larger than standard dog, but generally not a dog that is 120#. Which means one of two things is going on. People are deliberately breeding dogs that are grossly oversized to create puppies that will also be, or people are allowing dogs that should be 90 pounds to weigh in at 120. Both of these are just not good, and likely to cause health problems, and both will impede the ability to do the job, one because obesity causes fatigue, injury, and illness; and the other because people who breed for one aspect that is totally outside of the standard, are probably doing so with less or no regard to other important aspects.

There is a section in Farmer Boy, where the father and son are at the fair looking at the horses. The father greatly admires the huge draft horse that someone brought to the fair, saying, "it could pull a barn." The boy who is 8 or 9 years old, says something to the effect, why would we want it to pull a barn, the Morgan can be ridden or driven (paraphrasing here), The father agrees with him, and that it would be a waste to feed all that muscle that is simply not needed. 

The German Shepherd Dog needs to be large enough to move the sheep, and to guard the sheep, quick enough to move the sheep, agile enough to move the sheep, beyond that, is a waste of feed, to the poor farmers/shepherds in Germany. 

We skip over to police/military work, without which, our breed may have had a short history. The dog has to be large enough to give criminals pause. But if police wanted larger dogs, they wouldn't be moving to Malinois, which are a bit smaller and thinner than GSDs. It is funny, buy my little Babs, who seems small to me, but weighs in between 68 and 72 pounds, actually makes full-grown men nervous. Weird. Maybe it's the upright ears. 

Why would you want a 130# dog when a 68 pound bitch backs up adult males? 

Now, I have a pup who is 8 months old and 72 pounds. He has huge paws, and I am afraid he will continue to grow, and may break 100. I hope not. How will I pick him up if he hurts himself and I have to lift him into the car. So far, I have been able to manage dogs weighing up to 90 pounds.

I guess I just don't understand the desire for dogs that are grossly over what the standard dictates for the breed. If you get a lean, 100# dog, don't kill him, kind of embarrassing from a breeding perspective, but certainly loveable and will most likely make a great pet. Going out of our way looking for breeder who breed for dogs that are typically over 100#s is encouraging that type of breeding. You have to spend more for food at the minimum, and they do not have 30% more personality than a properly sized dog. Get a leonberger or a mastiff if you want a giant dog. It's not right to build shepherds to double their size because we like them big. It would be like wanting a Chihuahua-sized GSD, and breeding down, down, down to get one. And then when we end up with a 7 pound GSD, being so proud of it, and finding breeders who make the smallest dogs. 

Just today at Tractor Supply, I am giving people the thumbs up on Diamond Naturals, of course, I find the two people in the store that have GSDs, and the one's dog is imported and 130#. I thought super-sizing the GSD was an American thing. Guess not. 

At some point, we really need to ask ourselves, why? Should we make one with no coat so that people who are allergic and want a hairless GSD will be satisfied? When do we say, this is what the dog is supposed to be, and stick with it?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Selzer who knows,maybe someday there will be mini,standard,and giant Gsds,like for poodles.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Few (I would argue zero) from either the show world or the working world would ever go to a breeder that advertises "old fashioned/over sized" shepherds. Just my .02, which you can also find in one or two of the old threads on here.


I'd take on this argument as my OS shepherds came from a lady who was a handler for an Arizona SAR team. She was in fact breeding for size and temperament. Now this was the early 2000's so I can't say if things are still the same today. 

I can tell you my WGSL female is OS and although she is a rescue if you look at her pedigree the show line breeder who's line she came from seems to produce large dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> I'd take on this argument as my OS shepherds came from a lady who was a handler for an Arizona SAR team. She was in fact breeding for size and temperament. Now this was the early 2000's so I can't say if things are still the same today.
> 
> I can tell you my WGSL female is OS and although she is a rescue if you look at her pedigree the show line breeder who's line she came from seems to produce large dogs.


Maybe they (the Germans) sent her the dogs that were oversized because over there they are much stricter on what dogs can be bred, and what dogs can't be. I know each dog has to be Koer'd, and they measure the dog's parameters as a part of that process. And, we all think the Americans want them big, big, bigger. The bigger the better.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well when I came on here I had no idea my guy was an OS GSD, He was mine and I thought that's what GSD's looked like...big! (might also explain why the 'Who Pets thing was not really much of a problem with him...not many wanted to get to close in any case!) 
My son in law had two GSD's a White and a Black and I was frankly horrified when I saw them??? They looked to me like Coyotes (small) and my guy looked like a wolf (big)????

It took me awhile to realize that my guy was the outlier. Way over breed specs. The standards are pretty clear, the job spec is pretty clear and it makes sense!

Some of us do like our GSD's "freakishly" large as it were and we are glad we have that option! And the test for specs is pretty simple in view...if you can't pick your GSD up...he's to freaking big!!

Simple but accurate!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

huntergreen said:


> a quick google search says you are correct. esp when max describes a natural stance when being shown, not stacked.


The term "old-fashion" has been used to describe many of the German shepherds pre-1930 and pre Klodo reign. In some cases, it is not a "new" term created as a marketing tool for breeders. It is based on the fact that in the early years of this breed, there were numerous German shepherds that that were not within today's standard but were productive and even won titles. So before all breeders of larger than standard German shepherds are thrown under the bus, a historical search may give credence to some breeders.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I don't see anything wrong with OS gsds as a variation just like show lines,WG lines,Czech lines,etc. are all variations.Also I like the out of standard colors.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Doc said:


> The term "old-fashion" has been used to describe many of the German shepherds pre-1930 and pre Klodo reign. In some cases, it is not a "new" term created as a marketing tool for breeders. It is based on the fact that in the early years of thisbreed, there were numerous German shepherds that that were not within today's standard but were productive and even won titles. So before all breeders of larger than standard German shepherds are thrown under the bus, a historical search may give credence to some breeders.


 
One would expect that in the early days of any breed not all dogs would fall exactly within standard, but the goal for the breed was always clear.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> One would expect that in the early days of any breed not all dogs would fall exactly within standard, but the goal for the breed was always clear.


Which goal are you referring to? The Standard? It seems like a great deal of attention is placed on height and weight but very little on spring of rib, stance, temperament, etc.
All too many times, in this form, if a dog is too tall or weighs more than the standard, the breeder is accused of breeding outside of the Standard without knowing any other traits written in the Standard about those "over-sized" b-s-a-.... Dogs


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Doc said:


> The term "old-fashion" has been used to describe many of the German shepherds pre-1930 and pre Klodo reign. In some cases, it is not a "new" term created as a marketing tool for breeders. It is based on the fact that in the early years of this breed, there were numerous German shepherds that that were not within today's standard but were productive and even won titles. So before all breeders of larger than standard German shepherds are thrown under the bus, a historical search may give credence to some breeders.


Max specifically chose Klodo because he didn't like the size and shape he was beginning to see in many shepherds. So regardless of what use to be, it's still not what was meant to be or what was ever desired for a WORKING dog. Size = decreased agility, decreased long term workability, increased strain on joints and arthritis, and usually decreased life span. People who breed over size german shepherds and people who desire oversized german shepherds are only hurting the breed


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> The German Shepherd is and always has been a medium sized dog.
> FCI Breed Standards - (SV) Size/weight*
> Males: Withers height 60 cm to 65 cm; weight 30 kg to 40 kg- 66-88lbs
> Females: Withers height 55 cm to 60 cm; weight 22 kg to 32 kg -48-70lbs
> ...


Thank you! Medium sized dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I'd take on this argument as my OS shepherds came from a lady who was a handler for an Arizona SAR team. She was in fact breeding for size and temperament. Now this was the early 2000's so I can't say if things are still the same today.
> *
> I can tell you my WGSL female is OS and although she is a rescue if you look at her pedigree the show line breeder who's line she came from seems to produce large dogs.*


in bold, depending on how much over standard they are what she is trying to accomplish which is very subjective.

*If* she is a serious breeder who competes the following is much, much more likely to be the case-

If she will take a chance the dog is a wee bit over standard to improve on something like pigment, temperament, movement what have you it happens. Having said that no WGSL breeder actively competing dogs in the SV system is going to push the envelop so as to create dogs that are consistently and significantly OS. It would be self defeating as they would not place well in the shows.

A SL breeder with *some* slightly oversize dogs does not = condoning or approving of OS dogs as a whole.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think we all can agree on what the breed standard is since it's right there in black and white.What we will never agree on is our personal choices on which variant is right for the individual owner.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

There's a reason the average lifespan of a great dane is 6-8 years, of a leonberger is 7-9 years, of a neopolitan mastiff is 6-9 years


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> People who breed over size german shepherds and people who desire oversized german shepherds are only hurting the breed


It's all a matter of opinion. In the end things will continue on as they always have with shapes, colors, sizes, temperaments and prices to fit anyone.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It is not a matter of opinion though. 

It's a matter of persons projecting their ideal, personal tastes on to a breed of dog.

If it were really a matter of opinion then there would be no breed standards at all. Breed standards exist for good reason. We already have enough tug of war between SL and WL, throwing basics out such as size would make having "a breed" impossible.

It's also why there are offshoots like the King and Shiloh shepherds. If people want to use GSDs to create a new breed like that, give it a name, refine it over the years that's fine. Those who like the OS dogs can do that, nothing wrong with it.

It's the implication that somehow the standard is wrong or to be dismissed completely is what is wrong.







shepherdmom said:


> It's all a matter of opinion. In the end things will continue on as they always have with shapes, colors, sizes, temperaments and prices to fit anyone.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It is not a matter of opinion though.
> 
> It's a matter of persons projecting their ideal, personal tastes on to a breed of dog.
> 
> ...


Here is the thing I've seen over many breeds of dogs and many years of having dogs. Breeders, breed for many things. The breed standard seems to be more of a general guideline than anything else. In the quest for getting the trait or thing they want many willingly throw the standards out of the window. Look at the Manchester and the issues between toy and standard sizes. They have a much smaller pool of breeders than German Shepherds but all the same back biting and infighting still exists.

This is not a problem limited to shepherds and its not something that anyone on this board will ever solve so why keep harping on it. How many locked threads already are there on this subject. Do we really need another one? Those that like big shepherds will continue to get big shepherds and those that don't will continue to get what they like and all the temper tantrums and crying in the world isn't going to change that fact. So rather than insult the many people on this board that have OS shepherds by complaining that we are ruining the breed. Just let it go. You won't change our minds and we won't change yours.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> This is not a problem limited to shepherds and its not something that anyone on this board will ever solve so why keep harping on it. How many locked threads already are there on this subject. Do we really need another one?


No no we don't! Rest assured you're not the only one that was offended! But unlike you...I declined to comment myself. 

But, if I did have something to say it would be lessons learned from my "OS WL GSD" and his general "attitude" towards people...*."nice to meet you...when you leaving??"* :laugh:


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

And how many times has the Standard been re-written since the original one written by Stephanitz? Look back over the history and when there is a change in power at the top of an organization, the Standard gets re-written or the parts of the Standard that are not the flavor of the day, gets ignored.
By the way, when Max imposed and rigged the selection of Klodo many of the breeders of true working dogs stopped participating in the trails and sold their stock off. So for 30 years prior to Klodo, breeders produced magnificent German shepherds and Max picked them Champions. But when the lines that were winning were deviant from his beloved Horand, he disliked those dogs with a passion. So for 30 years, dogs were bred outside of the Original Standard to the point that Max even changed the height to a taller dog than he originally wanted because the best dogs were taller and were identified as Champions by the breed creator. 
To be blind and in denial about the history of the German shepherd has put this breed on the road to hades. JMHO


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Doc said:


> Which goal are you referring to? The Standard? It *seems like a great deal of attention is placed on height and weight but very little on spring of rib, stance, temperament, etc*.
> All too many times, in this form, if a dog is too tall or weighs more than the standard, the breeder is accused of breeding outside of the Standard without knowing any other traits written in the Standard about those "over-sized" b-s-a-.... Dogs


von Stephanitz spoke specifically to this

"a long, well knit body suitably proportioned for service, not spongy or bulky, who's form guarantees a stretching out and swift gait, with powers of endurance are among the first qualifications"
"Oversize and undersize do not carry the proper size/weight proportion and affects the strength available"
He also specifically noted that the gait of a dog should be judged while the dog was moving free.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Doc said.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anubis_Star said:


> Max specifically chose Klodo because he didn't like the size and shape he was beginning to see in many shepherds. So regardless of what use to be, it's still not what was meant to be or what was ever desired for a WORKING dog. Size = decreased agility, decreased long term workability, increased strain on joints and arthritis, and usually decreased life span. *People who breed over size german shepherds and people who desire oversized german shepherds are only hurting the breed*


I agree with this within reason. In the AKC, oversize is not a disqualifying fault, there is more emphsis put on balance, so if the judges are putting dogs up that are significantly over sized, then people will breed for that, and it is on the judges to take that into consideration more. 

Of course if two dogs are pretty equal and the more correctly sized dog shows weakness in temperament, the dog that is outside hieghtwise should get the ribbon, or no 1st place ribbon should be given, though size should not come before temperament or more serious structural issues. If all the dogs in the ring are 2-3 inches taller than they should be, then there is a problem with judging and that should be addressed.

On the other hand, if you have a great bitch who happens to be 25 inches, don't throw away the baby with the bathwater. She is a little over-sized. Perfect is in heaven. A 25 inch bitch will generally weigh in at 70 to 80 pounds. It is not like a 115 pound bitch. 

The standard is something we strive to meet. And if our bitch is weak in one area, we want to breed her to a dog who is correct in that area, and who produces dogs that are also correct. If the fault is not a disqualifying fault, then I don't have a problem with using such a dog, so long as it isn't grossly outside of the standard. Remember too that the AKC has only a standard on height and not weight. So dogs can vary widely dependent on what his structure is like, and the amount of bone he has, and what his owner considers fit. What is grossly out of the standard? 10%? 20% If we are only talking height, a bitch should be 22 to 24 inches, 10 percent would make a 26.4 inch bitch. The SV is simpler, they give you half a cm I think. I think that is a bit too strict, depending on the whole picture of the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Doc said:


> To be blind and in denial about the history of the German shepherd has put this breed on the road to hades. JMHO


 Nope being dog number two in the top ten does that! 

"We" know our dogs are outside the breed standards,and frankly "we" don't care! The breed standards still give us the dogs we have, the good and the bad, 100% GSD! Our dogs are not in LE or the military, they are family pets and that has no size restriction !

Logic is "not" going to switch "our" positions! "Our" best argument in my view comes from my 116lbs OS GSD...

*...."nice to meet you...when you leaving??"*


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't now or have ever considered a GSD a medium size dog. Once they are past 60 pounds that is large to me. Most GSDs are over 60 pounds. For workability I can see how size matters and why the standard is what it is, but for someone that owns them as a companion I'm more interested in the temperament and that standard. Just my personal thoughts.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

There are grey areas for sure. Yes other breeds wrestle with this. The more popular the breed the more likely someone (or group) will try to re-fashion it. That doesn't make dogs being bred specifically to be out of standard a good practice. 

It's when you trot a out 100 plus pound dog that is 3 plus inches too tall, while telling others this is what a 'real' German Shepherd should be when the problems arise.

The infighting isn't over a dog being 3 or 4 inches too tall and 30-40 pounds over standard. It tends to more nuanced things that often are hard to spot to someone new to the breed. I am only just learning about some of the differences. In GSDs we hear a lot of back and forth about angulation of the hind legs. Not about if the dog should be at least 100 pounds.

Also, there is nothing to be solved. When it comes to height and weight, extremely over sized dogs are out of the running in the ring and in work, period. 

I don't chase people down about this either. 

People often, however, pick arguments, yes arguments with me about my dog. The myth of the 'big old fashioned' German Shepherd is FAR more prevalent then actual knowledge of the breed standard.

I do my best to educate people, when they ask me how old my *puppy* is.....5 year old Ilda, what the breed standard is. 

Usually the line that works the best is to ask them "When was the last time you saw a police officer using a St. Bernard for police work?"

That seems to work real well. 

I don't need to change your mind, it's all right there in the breed standard. eace:




shepherdmom said:


> Here is the thing I've seen over many breeds of dogs and many years of having dogs. Breeders, breed for many things. The breed standard seems to be more of a general guideline than anything else. In the quest for getting the trait or thing they want many willingly throw the standards out of the window. Look at the Manchester and the issues between toy and standard sizes. They have a much smaller pool of breeders than German Shepherds but all the same back biting and infighting still exists.
> 
> This is not a problem limited to shepherds and its not something that anyone on this board will ever solve so why keep harping on it. How many locked threads already are there on this subject. Do we really need another one? Those that like big shepherds will continue to get big shepherds and those that don't will continue to get what they like and all the temper tantrums and crying in the world isn't going to change that fact. So rather than insult the many people on this board that have OS shepherds by complaining that we are ruining the breed. Just let it go. You won't change our minds and we won't change yours.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Chip. No one is saying you can't enjoy and love your dog, big or small. 

People with large dogs shouldn't take it personally just like I don't loose sleep at every person who tells me Ilda is 'too small' to be a GSD. 

Just don't tell people that being over sized makes it a 'real' German Shepherd.

That's my only beef. I don't worry about it as far as the standard and show or work because they generally fail and the breed standard isn't going to change *that* much.

...and what the heck is that about in blue? Are you telling Doc to get lost?




Chip18 said:


> Nope being dog number two in the top ten does that!
> 
> "We" know our dogs are outside the breed standards,and frankly "we" don't care! The breed standards still give us the dogs we have, the good and the bad, 100% GSD! Our dogs are not in LE or the military, they are family pets and that has no size restriction !
> 
> ...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Do you know what's really stupid? I am the one arguing for the standard.

My darling Sabi was over size at 82lbs and 27", yet she proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could work, not compete but WORK, without breaking down, for many years. 
My old man is just over at 90-95lbs, and nearing his 13th birthday is still challenging me and scaling fences.
My sweet little Shadow is a perfectly within standard bitch, and is just a pet.


Form must follow function.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:laugh:

Ilda is pushing 80 pounds. I STILL get people telling me she is 'too small'.

That's what really throws me for a loop.

(btw Police are downsizing somewhat with the Malis.)



Sabis mom said:


> Do you know what's really stupid? I am the one arguing for the standard.
> 
> My darling Sabi was over size at 82lbs and 27", yet she proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could work, not compete but WORK, without breaking down, for many years.
> My old man is just over at 90-95lbs, and nearing his 13th birthday is still challenging me and scaling fences.
> ...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> The German Shepherd is and always has been a medium sized dog.
> FCI Breed Standards - (SV) Size/weight*
> Males: Withers height 60 cm to 65 cm; weight 30 kg to 40 kg- 66-88lbs
> Females: Withers height 55 cm to 60 cm; weight 22 kg to 32 kg -48-70lbs
> ...


What's the SV say about a roached back?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> I agree with this within reason. In the AKC, oversize is not a disqualifying fault, there is more emphsis put on balance, so if the judges are putting dogs up that are significantly over sized, then people will breed for that, and it is on the judges to take that into consideration more.
> 
> Of course if two dogs are pretty equal and the more correctly sized dog shows weakness in temperament, the dog that is outside hieghtwise should get the ribbon, or no 1st place ribbon should be given, though size should not come before temperament or more serious structural issues. If all the dogs in the ring are 2-3 inches taller than they should be, then there is a problem with judging and that should be addressed.
> 
> ...


We're not talking about a 75 lb bitch. We're talking about 120lb "working" dogs.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> What's the SV say about a roached back?


What's the akc say about extreme angulations?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Just don't tell people that being over sized makes it a 'real' German Shepherd.
> 
> That's my only beef. I don't worry about it as far as the standard and show or work because they generally fail and the breed standard isn't going to change *that* much.


Nope temperament and breed characteristics determine that and my "116lb" boy has that in spades! 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> and what the heck is that about in blue? Are you telling Doc to get lost?


That is "Rocky's" response to OS dog critics! 

Rocky is a diplomat, I am not! 

I would be one to say something to the "critics" like..."you know what we get the breed standards! No argument, it just so happens that "some" of us like our GSD's big!

If we happen to think your breed standard dog looks uh "small" by and large we aren't going to say that out loud!

So who is the one who's really concerned about size??

It's a "pet person" thread not a "working dog" issue! I was willing to let it go but no "somebody" always has to come in add there two cents and "insult" our freaking dogs in the process!!!"

Yep, that was... what I was going to say but I didn't! Rocky said, "dad...don't go there," just say what I always say when folks with which I don't want to engage come over:


*...."nice to meet you...when you leaving??"
*

My OS WL 116Lb GSD is a lot more diplomatic than me!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> What's the SV say about a roached back?


Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!


Sigh I'm just going to have to not drink coffee and be on this board in the future!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What folks need to do, IMO of course, is stop taking it personally when someone says it's not good to *specifically breed extremely oversized GSDs *and say they are 'real' GSDs.

That's entirely different then telling you your dog is worthless or something unkind of that nature. *No one* is saying that your dog is a bad dog.

What is being said is that those who *intentionally breed for the extreme size* are not doing our breed any favors.

People are conflating the two as though they are one in the same they aren't.

I NEVER put someone's dog down. I've seen plenty of over size GSDs around and if the people are happy and love their dog I'm fine with it. They walk by and smile or say Hi, I say Hi back.

The ONLY time I ever say anything, outside of this forum, is when people feel like they MUST inform me that MY dog is not a 'real' GSD because she is (ahem) ONLY 80 pounds. Believe me, that happens more then people being afraid of my dog because she's a GSD. People literally will walk up to me and question MY dog because she's not a 120 pound bruiser.

Well then my friend, THOSE folks who choose to start it, well I'm going to finish it, nicely but directly and succinctly. Edumicate them I will. Yes. mmmmhmm. 




Chip18 said:


> Nope temperament and breed characteristics determine that and my "116lb" boy has that in spades!
> 
> That is "Rocky's" response to OS dog critics!
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Specifically looking to buy an extremely over-sized dog, drives the market so that breeders who are looking to sell whatever sells, will breed specifically for over-sized dogs. This hurts the breed. 

We aren't saying your dog is not a real GSD. We are not saying it is unworthy of being a pet, or even unworthy of doing some sort of work. But we are saying that hunting for this aspect hurts the breed, and if you want a dog that is 50% larger than the breed you want should be, why not look into other breeds who are supposed to be that large?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Whiteshepherds said:
> 
> 
> > What's the SV say about a roached back?
> ...


Lol


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> What's the SV say about a roached back?


See below, I hate repeating myself.



Sabis mom said:


> von Stephanitz spoke specifically to this
> 
> "a* long, well knit body suitably proportioned for service, not spongy or bulky, who's form guarantees a stretching out and swift gait, with powers of endurance are among the first qualifications*"
> "Oversize and undersize do not carry the proper size/weight proportion and affects the strength available"
> He also specifically noted that the gait of a dog should be judged while the dog was moving free.


And of course this. 



Sabis mom said:


> Do you know what's really stupid? I am the one arguing for the standard.
> 
> My darling Sabi was over size at 82lbs and 27", yet she proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that she could work, not compete but WORK, without breaking down, for many years.
> My old man is just over at 90-95lbs, and nearing his 13th birthday is still challenging me and scaling fences.
> ...


I am not arguing, or looking for an argument. I simply answered the OP's question. 
I never have and never will, called down any ones dog or their preferences, because frankly I like dogs, all dogs, any dogs. I believe that every dog has the right to be with a human who thinks they are "the bestest dog in the whole wide world".

I do however, firmly believe that BREEDERS should be breeding for the betterment of the breed, not to fill consumer demand.

I lifted Sabi, and carried her, a good number of times. I would have been much happier, AT THAT MOMENT if she had been 62lbs instead of 82. The day that she dragged me out of a rioting mob, I was GRATEFUL for every ounce of that 82lbs.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!


Standard equipment on my dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!


l agree, l have two dogs with those ears and tomorrow they better be gone, vamoose, vanished...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Specifically looking to buy an extremely over-sized dog, drives the market so that breeders who are looking to sell whatever sells, will breed specifically for over-sized dogs. This hurts the breed.
> 
> We aren't saying your dog is not a real GSD. We are not saying it is unworthy of being a pet, or even unworthy of doing some sort of work. But we are saying that hunting for this aspect hurts the breed, and if you want a dog that is 50% larger than the breed you want should be, why not look into other breeds who are supposed to be that large?


 My guy isn't 50% larger he's 116lbs out of spec, yep but not "King Shepard" size.

For me the whole GSD thing was an accident! I was very content and quite competent in Molosser world. Dogo Argentino is where I was heading before Rocky intersected..down side of being a foster? 

While "you" might not being saying negative things about "our" dogs... "others" were! They were upsetting Shepardmom and some of us took "that" personally!!! 

My"GSD" put me in the OS dog camp not me! But I protect my dogs, Gunther was technically an American Band Dawg, Struddell was a "White" Boxer and "Rocky is a OS GSD, so I have a history of being outside the norm!

Shepardmom got upset by "some" comments and as they say "crap" rolls down hill! So yeah if she's upset I'm upset!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What folks need to do, IMO of course, is stop taking it personally when someone says it's not good to *specifically breed extremely oversized GSDs *and say they are 'real' GSDs.
> 
> That's entirely different then telling you your dog is worthless or something unkind of that nature. *No one* is saying that your dog is a bad dog.


No what was said was that we are intentionally hurting the breed because we desire oversize dogs. 



> People who breed over size german shepherds and people who desire oversized german shepherds are only hurting the breed


Nevermind the fact that many of us get our oversize dogs from rescue. But even if we do choose to support a breeder that is breeding oversize dogs it doesn't affect those breeders who breed to standard. We never would have bought a dog from them anyway. 



> Forget the 'roach backs', I'm much more worried about the crazy pink fuzzy ears on some of the GSDs these days!












Awe... now why would that worry you? I can totally get behind fuzzy pink ears. I think my dog might eat my behind if I tried it on her tho.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> *My guy isn't 50% larger he's 116lbs out of spec, yep but not "King Shepard" size.*


Actually, a little math:

Males should be 66 to 88 pounds. So, let's stab, right in the middle at 77 pounds. 50% of 77 is about 38 pounds. 38 pounds + 77 pounds is 115 pounds. So, your 116 pound dog is about 50% larger than a GSD ought to be. 

But, we probably should be going with the 88#. 88+44 is 132, so, you have 16 pounds to go before you are 50% more than what the breed ought to be. 132 is a huge dog. For females though 50% larger than they ought to be is only 105#. And there are people out there breeding specifically for dogs that are 50% larger than what they ought to be.

Let's turn it around. Lets say I want to breed GSDs to be 50% smaller than they ought to be. For a bitch go with 48 pounds -- low end of the scale. 48 less 50% of 48, would be 24#. If I am specifically trying to breed 24# GSDs, are people going to be all happy about that and running out to buy one? People would call me a monster. What is the difference?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> No what was said was that we are intentionally hurting the breed because we desire oversize dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Specifically looking for significantly over-sized GSDs and breeding for them does hurt the breed. You all aren't thinking, "how can we hurt the breed?" but it doesn't mean that it doesn't all the same. If people weren't actively looking for over-sized GSDs, the breeders who are trying to produce them, would stop. 

Lots of things people do without thinking about it hurts the breed, and dog ownership in general. When people buy from pet stores, they aren't wanting bitches to be kept in terrible conditions and bred until they are unable to produce, and then dumped. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Actually, a little math:


Shouldn't you be comparing proportion rather than weight? When people talk about larger GSD's don't they normally mean taller/longer? (and the weight goes up along with the size)

In order to be 50% larger than a standard 24" GSD wouldn't the other dog be 36" tall?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> Specifically looking for significantly over-sized GSDs and breeding for them does hurt the breed. You all aren't thinking, "how can we hurt the breed?" but it doesn't mean that it doesn't all the same. If people weren't actively looking for over-sized GSDs, the breeders who are trying to produce them, would stop.


And making them stop benefits the breed how? I'm sure the working line breeders would like the show line breeders to stop and vice versa and we would all like the puppy mills to quit breeding but how does getting rid of a quality breeder who health tests and produces a over size or a white shepherd and fills a niche market help the breed?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I find it funny that the people constantly quoting Stephanitz about the breed standard, are the same ones that refuse his temperament test as the preferred way of proving breedworthiness.

But this is America, and accepting one paragraph of something while completely ignoring the others is a very acceptable thing to do.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> And making them stop benefits the breed how? I'm sure the working line breeders would like the show line breeders to stop and vice versa and we would all like the puppy mills to quit breeding but how does getting rid of a quality breeder who health tests and produces a over size or a white shepherd and fills a niche market help the breed?


I agree. Think about what % of GSD's today are an inch too tall or 10lbs over, the majority of the market and popularity of the breed shows that these things do not affect desirability. Most GSD owners do not give a darn if their dog conforms anymore. That only matters to the "purists" and those that will be competing. They don't have to worry about the breed being compromised, they are such a small part of the picture, but they will never deviate from the standard. There will always be a rich and diverse stock to pull from because of these dedicated fanatics. 

The GSD today, continues to be in the top 2 most desired breed, yet a vast number have been out of standard.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

whoa, my dog's way bigger than that standard. Dang.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

royals17 said:


> whoa, my dog's way bigger than that standard. Dang.


My female was 35lbs at 14 weeks and 50lbs at 19 wks. She has stopped at 70lbs at 11 mos, for that I am happy. My concern is with her health/weight.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> My female was 35lbs at 14 weeks and 50lbs at 19 wks. She has stopped at 70lbs at 11 mos, for that I am happy. My concern is with her health/weight.


Apollo is 2 in May; ~32 in. at the shoulder, and weighs in at 98 lbs. ... and he's a bit underweight.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

royals17 said:


> Apollo is 2 in May; ~32 in. at the shoulder, and weighs in at 98 lbs. ... and he's a bit underweight.


Wow, I would imagine he's a bit underweight. My pups Dam is 80 and sire 125 and he's 30" atw.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Wow, I would imagine he's a bit underweight. My pups Dam is 80 and sire 125 and he's 30" atw.


last time he was weighed he was 98 which was at the vet in November... he's put on weight since then. I'd estimate he's around 110 at this point, but that's just based on looking at him and him stepping on me when I'm in bed


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I find it funny that the people constantly quoting Stephanitz about the breed standard, are the same ones that refuse his temperament test as the preferred way of proving breedworthiness.
> 
> But this is America, and accepting one paragraph of something while completely ignoring the others is a very acceptable thing to do.


I'm totally down for his temperament test. 



And yes, I did say those that desire extremely oversized dogs hurt the breed. And I'll gladly say it again. Read my reasonings for it. Decreased agility, increased strain on joints, decreased work life, and typically decreased lifespan. For the rare 130 lb shepherd that lives to be 13 with no health problems - the exception is not the rule.

Just because you're offended, does not mean you're right


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

martemchik said:


> I find it funny that the people constantly quoting Stephanitz about the breed standard, are the same ones that refuse his temperament test as the preferred way of proving breedworthiness.
> 
> But this is America, and accepting one paragraph of something while completely ignoring the others is a very acceptable thing to do.


 
Can you be more specific? I'm Canadian and maybe a bit slow, but his thoughts on temperament line up pretty well with mine.

I do know that the sport of schutzhund is based on the tests he set up to promote the breed to police/military agencies.

"As Germany became increasingly industrialized and the pastoral era declined, von Stephanitz realized the breed might also decline. *With the co-operation of police and working dog clubs a set of specific tests was developed in tracking, formal obedience, and protection work. This was the prototype of the present Schutzhund trials.* He persuaded the authorities to utilize the German shepherd dog in various branches of government service. The dog served during the war as Red Cross dogs, messenger dogs, supply carriers, sentinel, tracking and guard dogs."


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's 'murica to you bud.

A) It's not endemic to the U.S. only. 

B) I get what you are saying but this thread is about size, not temperament. :shrug:



martemchik said:


> I find it funny that the people constantly quoting Stephanitz about the breed standard, are the same ones that refuse his temperament test as the preferred way of proving breedworthiness.
> 
> But this is America, and accepting one paragraph of something while completely ignoring the others is a very acceptable thing to do.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

royals17 said:


> Apollo is 2 in May; ~32 in. at the shoulder, and weighs in at 98 lbs. ... and he's a bit underweight.


That's definitely underweight... Mine GSD is 25 in and weighs in 115 lbs  JK i like lanky-ish GSD idk why.. not skinny tho... just lanky. Ace is 28 inches 69 lbs


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Pink Fuzzy ears are not the breed standard though.  hehehe

*Jane* too stinkin' cute! 

In bold below: Sue clarified it well already.

"Desire" a OS dog.

So it leaves the question do you desire, as in want to support, encourage and promote breeders of OS dogs by purchasing puppies? 

Let's say I rescued an OS GSD. I'm walking the dog and someone stops me and compliments him for being a "good old fashioned big" GSD. I would thank the person for the compliment but also explain he is a rescue and really is not to breed standard. 

My Smitty dog is a rescue, he's not OS but he's very washed out tan and black, with soft tipped over ears, very leggy too. People have told me what a great looking example of a GSD he is and I have explained, nope, he's an example of a BYB dog. I still love him to pieces, he's a pretty dog in his way and he will be with me until his last day. It's just that I won't portray him as a good example of the breed, nor support the kind of breeding practices from which he was produced, either. 



shepherdmom said:


> No what was said was that we are intentionally hurting the breed because *we desire oversize dogs*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The problem with these discussions is that people take these things way too personally…like those of us that “don’t like” oversized dogs, are talking about YOUR exact dog. It’s not that at all…it’s a way bigger macro thought process. A single owner…might own 4-5 GSD in their life time. If you own those 5 GSD, you’re not really affecting the breed that greatly. No one really cares what kind of dog you like/choose to own. Many times, the issue is that as a buyer, you’re supporting a breeder, and therefore telling them that there is a market for the dogs they’re breeding and that they should keep doing it. On a macro level, that is still a very small effect on the breed as a whole.

Now…a breeder that is constantly producing bigger and bigger dogs. That affects the breed much more than a single owner. Say that breeder has 5 litters a year, that’s 40-50 puppies. Over a life time? That’s a lot of dogs…can swing things.

This is more why “traditionalists” try to keep people away from such breeders. The breed is supposed to be a working breed, 115lb dogs, can’t work. And sorry, the “I just want a pet” thing doesn’t work here, if you “Just want a pet” you can get that in another breed. If you want a GSD, you should want the kind that gave the GSD the reputation that is the reason you want a GSD in the first place…not some watered down version that looks like that GSD but acts like something completely different. Those that claim their dogs have “temperament for days” probably have a very limited knowledge and expectation of good temperament. Most pet owners think that as long as their dog doesn’t react, bite, or do anything aggressive in “normal” situations, the dog has good temperament. Many of them have never tested their dog beyond its own yard or maybe the nearest city park. I’m extremely happy for those owners/handlers, but that doesn’t mean their dog has the proper temperament for a working dog. Which is what this breed is supposed to be.

There are very few outliers that I have seen which can work. I’ll keep oversized females out of this discussion because they still tend to be “working weight.” An 80lbs female, is still about the size of a normal sized male, and so as long as the drive is there, the dog will have the muscle and structure to move fast and the agility necessary to perform the work that’s asked of it. I have not seen too many males, over the standard, that perform with power and drive. There seems to be a weight and height at which the dogs just don’t move the way you’d like them to. Are there outliers that still move amazingly fast and quick at a higher weight? Absolutely…but in general, you see dogs over 26” and 90lbs slow down and not be able to compete with their smaller relatives.

I also think that “in general” you don’t see the breeders that are advertising “over-sized dogs” working their stock. Those of us that have been around this forum, and in the GSD world for even a few years, have seen enough of those websites and breeders to know that it’s rare to see a breeder who advertises their dogs in that way, test their dogs in any way that even Stephanitz himself would accept. This is why you tend to see the comments you do on these threads…people don’t expect much from those breeders.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:


You "purist" you. 

BTW in blue, to head off some of the comments I envision will be popping up. 115 pd dogs can work. *Some* working Rotties out there. Pyrenees working too, have to define the type of work they are suited to, which varies.

In red, exactly.



martemchik said:


> The problem with these discussions is that people take these things way too personally…like those of us that “don’t like” oversized dogs, are talking about YOUR exact dog. It’s not that at all…it’s a way bigger macro thought process. A single owner…might own 4-5 GSD in their life time. If you own those 5 GSD, you’re not really affecting the breed that greatly. No one really cares what kind of dog you like/choose to own. Many times, the issue is that as a buyer, you’re supporting a breeder, and therefore telling them that there is a market for the dogs they’re breeding and that they should keep doing it. On a macro level, that is still a very small effect on the breed as a whole.
> 
> Now…a breeder that is constantly producing bigger and bigger dogs. That affects the breed much more than a single owner. Say that breeder has 5 litters a year, that’s 40-50 puppies. Over a life time? That’s a lot of dogs…can swing things.
> 
> ...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> And yes, I did say those that desire extremely oversized dogs hurt the breed. And I'll gladly say it again. Read my reasonings for it. Decreased agility, increased strain on joints, decreased work life, and typically decreased lifespan. For the rare 130 lb shepherd that lives to be 13 with no health problems - the exception is not the rule.
> 
> Just because you're offended, does not mean you're right


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, it is just an opinion, as I would venture to say there are a lot worse things hurting the breed.

I would also point out that those who don't like oversize are not breeding to oversize so why do you feel the need to be offensive about it? What kind of dog anyone chooses to buy/rescue is absolutely none of your business and making grandiose proclamations about how we are hurting the breed is counterproductive to the good of the German Shepherd.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :thumbup:
> BTW in blue, to head off some of the comments I envision will be popping up. 115 pd dogs can work. *Some* working Rotties out there. Pyrenees working too, have to define the type of work they are suited to, which varies.


Since this is a GSD forum, and we are discussing GSD, any larger breed needs to be compared to the work that a GSD is expected to do. For this discussion, and since the SV and Stephanitz himself only accept either Schutzhund or HGH in order to breed, I believe those are the two lines of "work" we should be comparing. With regards to Schutzhund, I'm totally for "real working dogs" that are either police/military K9, detection dogs, and we can even include service dogs.

A rottie, that can compete with a GSD in regards to those types of work...is a one in a million rottie. I'm willing to take the flack on that statement if anyone wants to prove me wrong. I'd be more than happy to watch videos of good working rotties, and preferably more than just that one in a million if someone does want to give it a go.

A great pyreneese...isn't a herding dog. It's a completely different type of dog. There are for sure no working K9s, and although I'm sure people still use them to guard livestock...I really doubt that most of the ones that are being bred today are truly capable of doing that work.

I'm also mostly focusing my discussion on GSD...when I say dogs...I'm talking about GSDs, not all breeds of dogs. Those other breeds should have nothing to do with the direction that the GSD should be going.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I, for one, won't promote or support BYBs, puppy mills and breeders who are breeding specifically for sizes out of standard or one color. (sorry WGSD lovers.....it's not that I'm against white coats per-se just that it narrows the gene pool to select for it or any specific coat color).

I will continue to educate anyone I bump into who opens the door to that conversation. As I was educated here and by others more knowledgeable then myself. I do believe, thanks to the internet/social media the message is getting out more and more.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, yup, but you know that was going to be brought up. So I just took the opportunity to head it off at the pass, so to speak....

(actually I'm in a rural-ish area and quite a few folks here do use pyrs to guard livestock. Neighbor is using them to protect his show goats. Dairy goats are quite valuable and also very vunerable to attacks by stray, loose dogs.)



martemchik said:


> Since this is a GSD forum, and we are discussing GSD, any larger breed needs to be compared to the work that a GSD is expected to do. *For this discussion, and since the SV and Stephanitz himself only accept either Schutzhund or HGH in order to breed, I believe those are the two lines of "work" we should be comparing*. With regards to Schutzhund, I'm totally for "real working dogs" that are either police/military K9, detection dogs, and we can even include service dogs.
> 
> A rottie, that can compete with a GSD in regards to those types of work...is a one in a million rottie. I'm willing to take the flack on that statement if anyone wants to prove me wrong. I'd be more than happy to watch videos of good working rotties, and preferably more than just that one in a million if someone does want to give it a go.
> 
> A great pyreneese...isn't a herding dog. It's a completely different type of dog. There are for sure no working K9s, and although I'm sure people still use them to guard livestock...I really doubt that most of the ones that are being bred today are truly capable of doing that work.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> This is more why “traditionalists” try to keep people away from such breeders. The breed is supposed to be a working breed, 115lb dogs, can’t work. And sorry, the “I just want a pet” thing doesn’t work here, if you “Just want a pet” you can get that in another breed. If you want a GSD, you should want the kind that gave the GSD the reputation that is the reason you want a GSD in the first place…not some watered down version that looks like that GSD but acts like something completely different


I'd say that traditionalists are losing the battle and will continue to lose the battle because the pet people dominate the market and you aren't going to change that. We don't want another breed and telling us that is what we should do isn't going to work. Rather than discouraging and slamming pet people you should be channeling them towards the OS or certain color breeders that do health/temperament test.

If someone wants a highly angled show line dog we don't send them to the puppy mills/BYB for a dog, you send them to a show breeder. But by basically denying that a market exists for pet owners you are basically chasing those people to the BYB or puppy mills and then we get blamed for destroying the breed. That IMO is counter productive and does absolutely nothing to help the German Shepherd.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

IMO, health is the big issue. If a dog is so oversize that he will inevitably suffer from structure breakdown. It's a bad breeding.

I would hope that the GSD "purist" would be more concerned about the many health problems before turning their attention to size. 

There should be some type of online registry where people can report what type of health problem their dog has and what the pedigree is. Open disclosure may help keep breeders from selling pups with so many health problems.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I'd say that traditionalists are losing the battle and will continue to lose the battle because the pet people dominate the market and you aren't going to change that. We don't want another breed and telling us that is what we should do isn't going to work. Rather than discouraging and slamming pet people you should be channeling them towards the OS or certain color breeders that do health/temperament test.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants a highly angled show line dog we don't send them to the puppy mills/BYB for a dog, you send them to a show breeder. But by basically denying that a market exists for pet owners you are basically chasing those people to the BYB or puppy mills and then we get blamed for destroying the breed. That IMO is counter productive and does absolutely nothing to help the German Shepherd.



Give me a list of breeders that are advertising their dogs as OS, or old-style, that temperament test their dogs to the level accepted by the SV and I'll be more than happy to do so.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Whoa. 

I don't think it's true that 'traditionalists' are loosing the battle. Look how many people come here looking for WLs because they never get HD. (ugh)

Yeah that's wrong too but it shows the tide is shifting and awareness is growing.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Give me a list of breeders that are advertising their dogs as OS, or old-style, that temperament test their dogs to the level accepted by the SV and I'll be more than happy to do so.


This is what pet owners are asking of you. We know nothing about the SV give us a list of OS - old-style breeders that we can trust.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> This is what pet owners are asking of you. We know nothing about the SV give us a list of OS - old-style breeders that we can trust.


That's the point. That's why you can't name any, and neither can I. They don't exist. I've been on this forum for 4 years now, have yet to see someone what purposely breeds over standard dogs, and is also actively competing/working those dogs in the "preferred" venues. I'd be more than happy to take a look at them and check them out, give a very objective opinion about them, but I've yet to see a single person ever post about an OS breeder, which fits any of the criteria that the founder (and now the SV) required.

On top of that...I will not recommend a breeder that I would personally not get a dog from. It's not right. I can give you an objective opinion of a breeder you might be thinking about...but I won't just recommend a "better" breeder than a BYB just because they're a step above that BYB. If I recommend a breeder, you better believe that I'd get a dog from that person and that I truly do believe their dogs are what the breed should be.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What Max said. With that, I'm off to now to fight against the pink fuzzy bunny eared GSD breeders.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> That's the point. That's why you can't name any, and neither can I. They don't exist..


Just because I know nothing about the SV doesn't mean that dogs like that don't exist. Maybe Doc or White Shepherds could chime in here because they know a heck of a lot more about it than me. 

I know I've seen whites competing in some of that stuff when I'm flipping t.v. channels. But I don't stop to watch because I'm not that interested. 

Someone needs to make a list of those breeders for the pet owners so we have half a chance of getting a decent dog. Otherwise we will continue to go to the breeders you guys say are ruining the breed and things will never change.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> What Max said. With that, I'm off to now to fight against the pink fuzzy bunny eared GSD breeders.


You meanie. Leave those pink fuzzy bunny eared GSD breeders alone.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Just because I know nothing about the SV doesn't mean that dogs like that don't exist. Maybe Doc or White Shepherds could chime in here because they know a heck of a lot more about it than me.
> 
> I know I've seen whites competing in some of that stuff when I'm flipping t.v. channels. But I don't stop to watch because I'm not that interested.
> 
> Someone needs to make a list of those breeders for the pet owners so we have half a chance of getting a decent dog. Otherwise we will continue to go to the breeders you guys say are ruining the breed and things will never change.


I'm talking minimum IPO1 or HGH in order to breed. We'll go by the German system as that's what people like to discuss...Stephanitz's vision of the breed and the minimum requirements he (and the governing body he created) set in order to breed a GSD.

People that want to discuss what the founder said/wanted in regards to the breed...need to provide concrete examples of how to achieve that or buy those dogs today. Don't just tell me that the founder "didn't mind larger dogs" and then ignore the fact that he still wanted them to prove their working ability.

You want to discuss the fact that the "market" exists due to those pet people? Why not educate them and try to limit/decrease/remove that market? Why not teach those people what the breed standard is, and why IF they want a GSD, that’s what they should get? If you want a 120lbs dog, get a breed that is meant to be 120lbs. That dog will love you, give you just as much companionship, will give you just as much whatever it is you’re looking for as a GSD will. Yet for some reason you think that the rest of us should “cater” to these individuals and just provide them with what they want?

 You're still missing the point though...I'd wager there are extremely few, if any, large shepherd breeders and white shepherd breeders that are titling their stock in those preferred venues. It’s a numbers game, there are very few of those breeders to begin with and so even less that would train in those venues, and they 100% understand that their potential customers couldn’t care less about IPO or herding titles. They’re looking for those dogs based on one thing…physical appearance. So why work their dogs? They won’t sell anymore puppies because they’re working their dogs. It’s just added, unnecessary expense. Their “market” isn’t asking them to do anything more, so why do it? But if that market gets educated…starts asking them for more, they’ll change, they’ll figure it out.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

I like my GSD to be big but not to big my females 70 to 80 my male 90 to 115 is good enough for me just what I prefer they will be loved spoiled and in great shape and I would do whatever it takes to to take care of them


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I thought I'd pass this picture along. 
It shows the German Shepherd Standard 
of way back, Then and Now.







I


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Just because I know nothing about the SV doesn't mean that dogs like that don't exist. Maybe Doc or White Shepherds could chime in here because they know a heck of a lot more about it than me.
> 
> I know I've seen whites competing in some of that stuff when I'm flipping t.v. channels. But I don't stop to watch because I'm not that interested.
> 
> Someone needs to make a list of those breeders for the pet owners so we have half a chance of getting a decent dog. Otherwise we will continue to go to the breeders you guys say are ruining the breed and things will never change.


Or you could just get a dog that actually represents what a german shepherd should be.... I know, silly thought.....


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

If dogs keep being bred for size alone, how big will they be in 50 years?


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)




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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Basically, we can't give you a list of "Good OS breeders" because we obviously don't think they exist!

If I were to buy a dog for schutzhund, let's say. And he's 32" tall and 130 lbs. Lean, healthy. Great temperament. I'll train and title, train and title. And that dog, I 100% promise you, will have to be retired by the time he is 5 or 6. That large of a body undergoing that training and impact can not withstand for as long. That's not an opinion. That is a medical fact. Trust me. I work with board certified veterinary surgeons. I see the damage and strain in many large dogs every day. There's a reason you rarely see a chihuahua with crippling hip dysplasia.

Meanwhile, my trainer's 50lb malinois is 7 yrs old and looking at national competitions next year. Physically still going strong. That dog will work until he's 9 or 10, easy. Because he's small. He's light. There is not nearly as much impact on the joints or spine. 

So no, I will NEVER think there is a "good" breeder producing 100+ lb dogs consistently and on purpose. I don't care if they're OFA excellent, DM clear, IPO1. That dog will not last as long in any kind of sport or true work. Not opinion. Fact.

And if you don't see a problem with producing dogs with decreased working ability and potentially lifespans, then I'm sorry for that.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> Basically, we can't give you a list of "Good OS breeders" because we obviously don't think they exist!
> 
> If I were to buy a dog for schutzhund, let's say. And he's 32" tall and 130 lbs. Lean, healthy. Great temperament. I'll train and title, train and title. And that dog, I 100% promise you, will have to be retired by the time he is 5 or 6. That large of a body undergoing that training and impact can not withstand for as long. That's not an opinion. That is a medical fact. Trust me. I work with board certified veterinary surgeons. I see the damage and strain in many large dogs every day. There's a reason you rarely see a chihuahua with crippling hip dysplasia.
> 
> ...


 Hey Anubis_Star.
I noticed that this quote appears at the bottom of your post:
"Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim." - Max Von Stephanitz
And I just wanted to give you a heads-up that the thumbnail that I posted earlier is GSD breed standard at the end of the 19th century. 
Well, at least the way Max Von Stephanitz envisioned it to be at that time.
Wow!! The comparison of then and now is almost like apples and oranges.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Findlay said:


> Hey Anubis_Star.
> I noticed that this quote appears at the bottom of your post:
> "Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim." - Max Von Stephanitz
> And I just wanted to give you a heads-up that the thumbnail that I posted earlier is GSD breed standard at the end of the 19th century.
> ...


First…do some more research about the GSD (preferably off of Facebook) and figure out that the breed is considered to have started in 1899. Can’t really get any more “end of 19th century” than that. Horand…the dog that all GSD can trace their lineage to, was born in 1895. So I’m going to assume your screenshot of a facebook post is based off of him…not sure if even Max was done “making the standard” at that point…as there was just one dog to make that standard from.

Second…Facebook isn’t the best source IMO to get your GSD information.

Third…the standard doesn’t have pictures. The standard does have angles of different joints, but not “preferred look.” What you basically posted is a highly biased, loosely based in truth picture, that I would almost call “propaganda” more than any kind of actual informational illustration.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I'm talking minimum IPO1 or HGH in order to breed. We'll go by the German system as that's what people like to discuss...Stephanitz's vision of the breed and the minimum requirements he (and the governing body he created) set in order to breed a GSD.
> 
> People that want to discuss what the founder said/wanted in regards to the breed...need to provide concrete examples of how to achieve that or buy those dogs today. Don't just tell me that the founder "didn't mind larger dogs" and then ignore the fact that he still wanted them to prove their working ability.
> 
> ...


See here is the thing. There are more people like me than you are willing to admit. I don't want another dog. I want a GSD. People here have been trying to educate me for 3 years and all you are doing is ticking me and those like me off. So going on and on about how we are ruining the breed and not following Stephanitz's vision doesn't do anything but make us more determined. I would venture to guess 3/4 of GSD owners in the US don't know or care who Stephanitz is. 

It is the elitist attitude is what is creating the downfall of GSD's not us. 

I think it would be fairly easy to break off a pet line. Have standards and breeders for that pet line GSD's. Send puppies that do not have the drive for work to those pet lines and put the evil Puppy Mills out of business. But hey whatever....while you are still here telling me what I should get I'll be out there acquiring the dog I want.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Or you could just get a dog that actually represents what a german shepherd should be.... I know, silly thought.....


I don't care what Stephanitz's vision for the GSD is. I want the big oversize family friendly GSD I grew up with and that is what I will pay $$ for. Ignoring pet people won't make us go away. Telling us to go get another breed won't make us go away. Attempting to "educate" us only ticks us off and makes us hostile. Basically by your refusal to acknowledge our rights and our feelings and more importantly *our economic impact* you are actually creating the downfall of the GSD not us.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What elitist attitude? What downfall of the GSD? It’s the American Burger King “have it your way” ideal that you’re unwilling to get rid of. At least you admit that you couldn’t care less about a standard and just want a dog that looks like a German Shepherd. Basically, you want the “King Shepherd.” So why don’t you just look for that?

I was a “pet owner” when I purchased my first GSD, but I did my research (really broad mostly with Wikipedia, akc.org, and some written books), saw that they should be under 90lbs, have a certain temperament, what they’re meant to do, and bought a dog based on that as ALL OF THOSE TRAITS FIT WHAT I WANTED IN A DOG. I didn’t make a list of things I wanted, then tried to find a dog BASED OFF INCORRECT PHYSICAL APPEARANCE, that fit what I was looking for. If I wanted a 130lbs dog, I would’ve gone with a mastiff of some sort, or a mountain dog, not hunted down a breeder to make me a 130lbs GSD.

I’m not sure what you mean by “standards for breeders for pet line GSD.” What you don’t get is that even those that breed for working temperaments, have dogs in their litters that don’t have the high level of drive necessary for work. Of course all breeders want dogs that can work, but there are probably only 2-3 in each litter that are capable of “real world work” or “national level sport.” The rest of them, just won’t have the drive that it takes to do that. Those are perfect family dogs. If you think that a working dog can’t cuddle…you just haven’t been around enough of them, too busy reading highly biased internet articles that already match your current opinion, instead of getting out and meeting dogs. There is no need for them to be 120lbs. What I look for in a breeder is that all their puppies are capable of doing club level IPO. That if the owner wants to try IPO, the temperament of the dog doesn’t deny the owner that opportunity. I’ve seen it in my club…people show up with dogs, not bred to work, and although they have the passion for the sport, their dogs aren’t capable. So for the next decade, these people won’t be enjoying a hobby they thought they had a passion for. It’s sad to see people get “tricked” by GSD breeders who sell dogs based off of a reputation that the breed has earned, and when they get their final product, the people have nothing close to what they expected.

What do you want in a dog? Why do you want a GSD? I guarantee you that it has something to do with the reputation they have earned over the last century as K9s, military dogs, well rounded protectors and guard dogs. But most people don’t want that anymore, they just want something that looks like it, so that the guy across the street that they perceive as a threat will think the big bad dog they’re walking next to them will bite the guy if he does something, but in reality, their dog will probably just run the other way and leave the handler to deal with the threat. And in America…the bigger, the badder, the better. Just wait for it…we’ll hear from the “It’s my job to protect my dog not the other way around” crowd soon enough.

It’s sad really, that after 3 years of being on this forum, you haven’t even taken the time to learn about what the SV standards might be, or what the breed standard is. It really wouldn’t take much time to learn, but you don’t care, and you’ll never care. So I really don’t care what kind of dog you want and what your opinion is of anything to do with the breed itself or the standard, as you’ve admitted that you prefer that your opinions aren’t based in any sort of fact. I’m happy that you at least admit that you’ll support any BYB willing to make you the dog that you want instead of trying to better the breed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Shepherdmom, really, this won’t get you anywhere. If you’re getting “ticked” you should just realize that nothing you say, will change the opinions of those of us that care about the breed standard to the level that we do. Those of us who will more than likely affect the breed at a much greater level than you owning your 4-5 shepherds will ever. Own the dogs that you do, support the breeders you want to support, at the end of the day, it’s not going to affect me, or the breed in any way.

The dogs that affect the breed are the ones that are constantly bred and have hundreds of progeny. Generally, those are within standard, working or show dogs. The dogs at the USCA nationals, the dogs at the WDC, the dogs at next months Sieger Show. Those dogs will have a much greater effect on the breed than that random guy down the street throwing his 100lbs+ GSDs together once a year. So I’m not worried at all about those dogs, or those breeders.

If someone comes on this forum and asks for an opinion, I’ll try to educate them, I’m not going to just give them options that match their IMO incorrect view of the breed and the standard. If they don’t listen, get “ticked,” and go out to buy some BYB dog, I don’t care. More than likely, they came on this forum just looking for acceptance anyways rather than a true education. They’ll learn once they take that dog and try doing some dog sport with it, or try to compete with it in some other way. That’s when they’ll learn the incorrectness of their original view/opinion. If they never do that with their dog…then it really doesn’t matter, that person won’t have any sort of real effect on where the breed goes.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Findlay said:


> Hey Anubis_Star.
> I noticed that this quote appears at the bottom of your post:
> "Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim." - Max Von Stephanitz
> And I just wanted to give you a heads-up that the thumbnail that I posted earlier is GSD breed standard at the end of the 19th century.
> ...


You posted an image depicting the common body structure of a west german showline. I own a working line. Basically apples to oranges in comparison. What max envisioned and what many well bred working lines are today are still hand in hand. Wow!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

If Max were here today, what percentage of dogs in existence would he cull out? 

You are defending the breed standard (that we will never know if it would have continued to evolve) which represented current wants and needs for a very brief period of time long ago.

Do you believe that 95% of the GSD's today would be culled because they are not within standard? Or at the very least, would you like restricted breeding only allowed for those that pass the standard (that would include the ability to do the work of herding etc, sound health and correct structure)? 

How practical do you think it is to stand resolutely on something that very likely would have evolved to be different? Don't you believe that he would have continued to refine the breed? Do you think that he ever dreamed that this dog would still be in the top 3 most popular all these decades later (and it isn't because most are herders or in LE)?

If Max saw that 95% of his breed today are not owned by shepherds or law enforcement, but by the every day person that he would disapprove? Given what life most GSD's live today, do you think he would have an absolute tizzy fit with oversize dogs if their health remained sound?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Shepherdmom, really, this won’t get you anywhere. If you’re getting “ticked” you should just realize that nothing you say, will change the opinions of those of us that care about the breed standard to the level that we do.




I'm not trying to get anywhere this is the endless argument that never goes away. Like you try to educate me about standards, I'm just trying to educate those like you into the emotion of John Q pet owner.

With the GSD being the number 2 dog nothing is going to change anytime soon. 

Comments that say "owners of OS GSD's are harming the breed" are hurtful and will not ever help in the quest to educate anyone. When I see comments like that I will always jump in and stand up for the average pet owner who participates here. As diverse as this board is I feel the pet parent is under represented and we often lose our voice or get out shouted among the stronger willed sport/show/breeders and workers when in fact we are the ones who need a place like this the most.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm not trying to get anywhere this is the endless argument that never goes away. Like you try to educate me about standards, I'm just trying to educate those like you into the emotion of John Q pet owner.
> 
> With the GSD being the number 2 dog nothing is going to change anytime soon.
> 
> Comments that say "owners of OS GSD's are harming the breed" are hurtful and will not ever help in the quest to educate anyone. When I see comments like that I will always jump in and stand up for the average pet owner who participates here. As diverse as this board is I feel the pet parent is under represented and we often lose our voice or get out shouted among the stronger willed sport/show/breeders and workers when in fact we are the ones who need a place like this the most.


Again, just because you are offended, does not mean you are right 

As irritating as it is for me, to hear people basically say "SCREW what the breed is suppose to be, I want it MY way, I'll do what I want, 'MURICA!" And continue to see these poorly bred dogs come into my clinic day in and day out plagued with temperament and health problems, I take nothing personally.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Again, just because you are offended, does not mean you are right
> 
> As irritating as it is for me, to hear people basically say "SCREW what the breed is suppose to be, I want it MY way, I'll do what I want, 'MURICA!" And continue to see these poorly bred dogs come into my clinic day in and day out plagued with temperament and health problems, I take nothing personally.


It's overly simplistic to blame the breed's temperament and health problems on OS dogs.

Breeding dogs for sport or in other words ( to score high in IPO ) could be just as bad or worse.

Schutzhund was designed to test the breed not become the standard.

Any test that is patterned and been around for years can be bred for and trained for, so what Max thought or may have intended is long gone.

Happened with "No child left behind". Funding was based on school performance and performance was based on the TEST scores. So teachers were pushed to teach for the test. As long as good scores were the result, few cared what was lost along the way.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

There are lots of "pet people" that have a dog that is within standard. I am a pet person. I have a working line puppy whose parents are well within the standard. I also have a rescue pit mix that is a genetic mess because of backyard breeding. Because of that, I have a huge respect for those breeding for what the standard is. That goes for both size/structure and temperament. Do I love Roxy any less for not being a great representation of her breed? Of course not. Would it be a shame if she was bred just because someone liked her size? Yes! 

I am new to German Shepherds, and obviously still have a lot to learn, but I'm here, trying to learn as much as I can from people who really know what they're talking about. I really don't think anyone set out to offend people whose dogs don't fit the standard. They just have the experience (and facts!) to back up their opinions.

I hope no one reads this and takes offense. I'm sure all your dogs are wonderful and you love them, and at the end of the day, that's what's really important. I know I love both of mine, even though one is more well-bred than the other.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

martemchik said:


> First…do some more research about the GSD (preferably off of Facebook) and figure out that the breed is considered to have started in 1899. Can’t really get any more “end of 19th century” than that. Horand…the dog that all GSD can trace their lineage to, was born in 1895. So I’m going to assume your screenshot of a facebook post is based off of him…not sure if even Max was done “making the standard” at that point…as there was just one dog to make that standard from.
> 
> Second…Facebook isn’t the best source IMO to get your GSD information.
> 
> Third…the standard doesn’t have pictures. The standard does have angles of different joints, but not “preferred look.” What you basically posted is a highly biased, loosely based in truth picture, that I would almost call “propaganda” more than any kind of actual informational illustration.


 First and formost: I’ve no interest in researching the topic of GSDs. I am however, the owner of a GSD pup.


Second: Prior to buying my pup, I was talking to a friend and wondered about the term “roach-back” and she emailed me that picture. While reading this thread I saw the term “breed Standard” and I remembered that picture and posted it…Big mistake on my part…Obviously, a big OUCH for you. 


Third and Lastly: I do not have a FaceBook account and I think that all I need or want to know about the history of GSDs is right here in your post.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> > Shepherdmom, really, this won?t get you anywhere. If you?re getting ?ticked? you should just realize that nothing you say, will change the opinions of those of us that care about the breed standard to the level that we do.
> ...



Thanks Shepherds mom


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> As diverse as this board is I feel the pet parent is under represented and we often lose our voice or get out shouted among the stronger willed sport/show/breeders and workers when in fact we are the ones who need a place like this the most.


Why do you need a place like this? You've clearly refused to learn. You admitted to not knowing the simplest things, the most basic of thing about our breed standard. Mostly because you've admitted it doesn't matter to you. So then why are you even involved in this discussion? Why should anyone that "knows" waste their time on people that refuse to learn and just stick to their extremely limited opinion on how things should be.

Like I said...I get the "pet mentality" and I've personally never said anything bad about anyone's OS GSD. Do I support the breeding of such animals? Nope. 
If someone comes here, asks about a breeder, I'll give them an opinion if I have one. The whole goal is to try and educate. Educate WHY people should look for within standard dogs.

But clearly...you don't want to learn, you're happy thinking what you do is right, and if everyone else is like you...they shouldn't even come and ask about potential breeders. If all you want is acceptance, find a forum where everyone will just accept whatever it is you want to do, but in my experience, this forum is not, and will never be a bunch of yes men.

Like I said...the saddest thing that happens, is when a "pet person" refuses to learn, then gets the dog they think they've wanted, tries to do something new, something more than just a hike here and there, and their dog isn't genetically capable of doing whatever it is the handler wishes to do with the dog. I'm generalizing, but from what I've seen "OS GSD" tend to not be tested in various sports and so they aren't capable of doing them. OS GSD breeders know that they sell their dogs based on ONE thing...size. They have no need to work their dogs. They accept that they're breeding for the people that don't feel like learning, the people that want some extra large form of what this breed was supposed to be. They don't care about working their dogs, because working people won't buy their dogs anyways.

So I'll continue to try and educate people, and not just give them "slightly better than BYB" options so that they're not supporting the bottom of the barrel. I have much higher standards for breeders and will only support those breeders. There's no "well they're not the worst I've ever seen so of course you should give them money."


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's the thing...stop taking these discussions so personally. Sure, if someone says something bad about YOUR dog, feel free to get upset. But that rarely happens on this forum. Why is it wrong for someone to say the "idea" of breeding OS GSD is wrong? Where would the fun be if we all had the same opinion and just accepted things as they are? Where would there be any opportunity to learn?

I don't care if people have OS GSD. I'm not telling them they need to be culled, or that they're something less than what the people think they are. Do I think they should be bred? All depends on if you go through the temperament testing that I agree with and support. I'm personally not one to rule a dog out of breeding just due to its size. Would I breed to it? Would I want a puppy out of that dog? Depends on what I see when I watch that dog work. If it's not up to my standard, I won't, but I'm sure it might be up to other people's standard and there are no issues with that at all. As long as the dog can perform the work, who is anyone to say that it's not worth breeding? Like Jack's Dad mentioned...the work was meant as a test, not a competition. If the dog passes the test, it means it has something to offer to the future generation...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't mind at all that there are people here that are very strict in their desire to stay well within the breed standard. It is those few that try to cram their preferences down other peoples throats that get to me. This sprinkled with comments as to a posters ignorance if they don't change their beliefs to align with yours is IMO very prevalent on this site with a few. 

Last month I posted a thread that asked the question "Is my dog a good representative of the breed"? I went into further detail that my question was only asked in the context as in casual conversation on the street. I know she is OS and not within the breed standard.

The conversation "blew up" in to becoming one of breed standard. 6 pages later, I got the information I was looking for in a couple of little posts that were direct and told me exactly what I needed to know. I learned a lot from those two posts. I will now be able, if asked, to explain that she is OS and has a problem with her back line and rear angle. If they want more than that I will refer them to the GSD standard. 

What that post attracted were the 2 top standard thumpers (guess who). 6 pages of junk that came no where near answering my question. I'm not sure if they even read my question, it was however a great springboard for a thumpin' session.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There we go, someone who wants to actually discuss something...nope, not at all. Resorting to name calling. Guess that's the way people discuss things these days. When someone disagrees with you, you call them names.

I'm not sure how anyone can "cram" anything down anyone's throat over the internet. There's no gun to your head, there's no knife to your throat, no one is forcing you to do anything. People share their opinions. Most people do it very respectfully, others choose to resort to name calling. To each their own.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

BYB must be name calling then. It is certainly used in that context here. Ignorant is also name calling as is uneducated.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Name calling a "theoretical" breeder is not the same as directly calling a person who you're discussing something with a negative term.

But, feel free to point out where I used a negative term (any of the ones you decided to list) about a board member.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:


Well stated. 

Me too. Unless we are involved with working GSDs at a young age most of us start from square one.

I was almost lured into buying an "Old fashioned straight backed" 100 plus pound GSD. I am glad I learned more about the breed, in part thanks to this forum.




GypsyGhost said:


> There are lots of "pet people" that have a dog that is within standard. I am a pet person. I have a working line puppy whose parents are well within the standard. I also have a rescue pit mix that is a genetic mess because of backyard breeding. Because of that, I have a huge respect for those breeding for what the standard is. That goes for both size/structure and temperament. Do I love Roxy any less for not being a great representation of her breed? Of course not. Would it be a shame if she was bred just because someone liked her size? Yes!
> 
> I am new to German Shepherds, and obviously still have a lot to learn, but I'm here, trying to learn as much as I can from people who really know what they're talking about. I really don't think anyone set out to offend people whose dogs don't fit the standard. They just have the experience (and facts!) to back up their opinions.
> 
> I hope no one reads this and takes offense. I'm sure all your dogs are wonderful and you love them, and at the end of the day, that's what's really important. I know I love both of mine, even though one is more well-bred than the other.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Why do you need a place like this? You've clearly refused to learn. You admitted to not knowing the simplest things, the most basic of thing about our breed standard. Mostly because you've admitted it doesn't matter to you. So then why are you even involved in this discussion? Why should anyone that "knows" waste their time on people that refuse to learn and just stick to their extremely limited opinion on how things should be.


I've learned a lot this board from Kong recipes, to when growth plates close, to not cooking marrow bones before I give them to my dogs. I now feed twice a day, I've switched from science diet to grain free and I've learned the way I train is called NILF. I've learned new crate games, some nose work games and the best toys and grooming tools to use on my dogs. I've no longer give vaccinations every year but follow the 3 year Dr. Dodds protocol. Just because I'm not interested in the anal retentive SV and Schutzhund doesn't mean I haven't learned anything. Doc, Cliff and Jacks Dad have some very informative posts. I'm still in the process of reading Doc's book (finally got new glasses last week and can see the small print Yay! ). I always enjoy Baliff's video's of him training his new mal puppy and I enjoy the chats and recipes exchanged in some of the chat threads. 

See the thing is pet owners have feelings too and when certain people feel the need to talk down about pet people I get ticked. Especially when I feel their is no basis and no reason for them to treat pet people as the red headed step children. You may not like the fact that we buy oversize colorful puppies but then again we don't like your little drivey dogs either.  and no matter what Anubis_star thinks we are not ruining the breed!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Well stated.
> ...


This.
I am glad that I am learning everyday about the breed. I am happy we have people like Max and many other forum members that post facts and standards. I am a "pet" person. I don't see anything wrong with it, but thanks to reading and learning and having many helpful connections I will have a chance of stacking the odds in my favor the next dog around.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Name calling a "theoretical" breeder is not the same as directly calling a person who you're discussing something with a negative term.
> 
> But, feel free to point out where I used a negative term (any of the ones you decided to list) about a board member.


I didn't say that _you_ have ever called anybody that. It was just a simple statement. Isn't it funny how people can interpret things and imply things. The English language and the written word are often left open to interpretation that some might find offensive or take as a personal attack. My only direct reference was to your use of BYB in this particular post.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Thanks Shepherds mom


You're welcome.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Findlay said:


> First and formost: I’ve no interest in researching the topic of GSDs. I am however, the owner of a GSD pup.
> 
> 
> Second: Prior to buying my pup, I was talking to a friend and wondered about the term “roach-back” and she emailed me that picture. While reading this thread I saw the term “breed Standard” and I remembered that picture and posted it…Big mistake on my part…Obviously, a big OUCH for you.
> ...


It's simply not the breed standard. Unfortunately there are extremists at all ends, and what many are obviously failing to realize in this thread, extremists hurt breeds. Breeding OS dogs is just as bad as breeding over-angulated dogs to promote an elongated trot in ASL, breeding roached backs in WGSL, breeding dogs that are too sporty simply for an ipo title, breeding big blocky black sable dogs in DDR lines. 

There are plenty of GREAT breeders with GREAT dogs that are true to the desired working form and temperament, that also make amazing family pets with appropriate exercise and mental stimulation through training and play.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

> Just because I'm not interested in the anal retentive SV and Schutzhund doesn't mean I haven't learned anything.



Anal retentive SV and SchH?

If you don't care for breed standards that is your prerogative. It's a free market when it comes to dogs.

However, there are many people who work very hard showing and competing to meet the standards as set forth by the SV. 

I wouldn't toss around terms like that and then cry foul when someone is saying something you find personally hurtful.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> It's simply not the breed standard. Unfortunately there are extremists at all ends, and what many are obviously failing to realize in this thread, *extremists hurt breeds. Breeding OS dogs is just as bad as breeding over-angulated dogs to promote an elongated trot in ASL, breeding roached backs in WGSL, breeding dogs that are too sporty simply for an ipo title, breeding big blocky black sable dogs in DDR lines.*
> 
> There are plenty of GREAT breeders with GREAT dogs that are true to the desired working form and temperament, that also make amazing family pets with appropriate exercise and mental stimulation through training and play.



YES! The GSD is no longer a "jack of all trades". Now it's a specialty breed. You want to do X with your dog? Then go to X breeder. You want to do Y with your dog then go to Y breeder. It's sad. A lot of the true work ability is lost. 

I get really tired of all the excuses. "I need a 130lbs GSD for a service dog." Then explain all the 80lbs labs that seem to have taken over that market. "I need a 130lbs GSD to be intimidating." I don't see 60lbs K-9 mals having that issue, and who now owns that market? Just about every field that the GSD used to dominate it's now losing except for one. Guess what that is? Unfortunately, it's happening to all working breeds. People will want what they want and people will continue to supply it to make a buck. Never mind that consequences.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Anal retentive SV and SchH?
> 
> If you don't care for breed standards that is your prerogative. It's a free market when it comes to dogs.
> 
> ...


This is getting ridiculous now. Just waiting for the moderators to shut it down. 
Unlike saying people who have OS dogs are hurting the breed the SV and SchH are faceless entities similar to the IRS. You can't insult a inanimate object. The SV doesn't recognize whites as German Shepherds therefore I don't recognize the SV. It was poor grammar on my part to insult the SchH with the SV. I don't have anything against the SchH except I think it is all kind of silly. Mondo is much more entertaining to watch.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well if you're going to make completely baseless comments like that one, of course the thread will get shut down. The SV is the dog club that controls the registration of the German Shepherd Dog in Germany, it's like the AKC just for GSD, and the GSDCA if they controlled the breeding of GSD. It is not a "faceless entity." Schutzhund, is not an entity. It is a breed test/sport/activity consisting of 3 phases that are meant to test the nerve, intelligence, and temperament of the German Shepherd Dog.

I also deal with the IRS enough to know that they are also not a "faceless."

Why involve yourself in a conversation about the breed standard when you are clearly not interested in the historical significance of the various entities and requirements that were involved in the creation of this breed that you claim to love so much? 

I'm not sure what Mondo is.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Phew.

It shouldn't rise to that level of angst......






shepherdmom said:


> This is getting ridiculous now. Just waiting for the moderators to shut it down.
> Unlike saying people who have OS dogs are hurting the breed the SV and SchH are faceless entities similar to the IRS. You can't insult a inanimate object. The SV doesn't recognize whites as German Shepherds therefore I don't recognize the SV. It was poor grammar on my part to insult the SchH with the SV. I don't have anything against the SchH except I think it is all kind of silly. Mondo is much more entertaining to watch.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Well if you're going to make completely baseless comments like that one, of course the thread will get shut down. The SV is the dog club that controls the registration of the German Shepherd Dog in Germany, it's like the AKC just for GSD, and the GSDCA if they controlled the breeding of GSD. It is not a "faceless entity." Schutzhund, is not an entity. It is a breed test/sport/activity consisting of 3 phases that are meant to test the nerve, intelligence, and temperament of the German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> I also deal with the IRS enough to know that they are also not a "faceless."
> 
> ...


I'm assuming she meant mondioring, which really just makes me laugh because large dogs NEVER do well at mondio. To go for your mondioring III title you have to do a 45 minute routine straight through, complete with a 7.5 ft palisade to climb and 13 foot long jump.

I will rightfully admit, my boy is OS. His parents were both within standard although both at the large end for their sex. He is 28 inches tall, 83 lbs now at 2 yrs of age although I expect him to mature out around 90lbs lean. He is an outlier for the breed, not something bred for by the breeder.

My club does both mondio and ipo, the only reason I didn't do mondio with him was his size. As it is I don't plan on working him in ipo much past 6 yrs old. I have no desire to destroy his joints with arthritis


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Martemchik, 

I think most of us have quoted the standard, and possibly what the breed was originally intended to be because a lot of these OS dogs are marketed as being old-fashioned or original or _real.

_If we must take all of what Von Stephanitz wrote or none of it, we should be slamming whelps against the wall if the bitch has more than 7. No breeder is doing that nowadays. 

Neither standard requires a minimum of HGH or IPO. Sorry. It is part of the SV requirements for breeding, not the US or Canada or the UK or all the other places where GSDs are like Australia, India, South America and so forth. The German standard has a nice paragraph about temperament, but it never says the dog must be titled in a specific breedworthy temperament test.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Keep doing what you're doing then Sue.

I'm glad you've realized in America you don't need titles. Who cares about temperament in America? As long as they lay on couch and don't bite little Timmy...they're perfect.

Maybe if the United States had something like the SV, police departments wouldn't feel the need to import every other dog from Germany in order to have a good working K9. And sport trainers wouldn't feel the need to import their dogs as well in order to compete on a national and world level.

Instead, we can't handle having anyone tell us what we can and can't do. This is America, we do what we want. I've already had this discussion before...instead of trying to increase the current standards, we've got people on this forum arguing to lower them. Why do IPO? We have umbrellas we can pop in dog's faces and test them that way? If a dog can handle an umbrella...surely it can handle a real threat.

Working dog? What's that? Just needs to go from the couch, to the dish, and then to the back yard. If it barks at the doorbell...that's a bonus.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have never been so immersed in information about this breed before I got my current GSD last Summer. I know for a fact now, that none of my previous 3 GSD's would have met breed standard for one reason or another. 

I respect those that have put in so much time and effort to take this breed as far as it can go in the show and working arenas. That's great. When the dust settles, there will still be the masses that no longer require their GSD to perform to working or showline levels. That's ok too. There has always been a divide and that's ok too.

I don't think those that do not own GSD's that are within standard have all been "duped" or are not educated. When someone "locks in" to any kind of "this is the way it has to be" mindset, there will be arguments. 

The day when I will agree to what people are doing with the standard is correct, will be the day that a line is developed where the dog will be able win in the show ring as well as the trials. Who also makes the ideal family pet. This dog will also need the temperament and drive to accommodate all these requirements. 
Until that line is developed, I'm not sure what the argument is.

Who's GSD is less screwed up?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Well if you're going to make completely baseless comments like that one, of course the thread will get shut down. The SV is the dog club that controls the registration of the German Shepherd Dog in Germany, it's like the AKC just for GSD, and the GSDCA if they controlled the breeding of GSD. It is not a "faceless entity." Schutzhund, is not an entity. It is a breed test/sport/activity consisting of 3 phases that are meant to test the nerve, intelligence, and temperament of the German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> I'm not sure what Mondo is.


Anubis star was correct Mondioring. Its fun to watch. There is a border collie that does the dance to the Grease music. You should you tube it, its cute. 

I'm aware exactly what the SV is and IMO isn't. I don't agree with or support them in any way shape or form.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Martemchik,
> 
> I think most of us have quoted the standard, and possibly what the breed was originally intended to be because a lot of these OS dogs are marketed as being old-fashioned or original or _real.
> 
> ...


Thank You!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

All I know is that my dog is only 50lbs so I don't think she's actually a German Shepherd.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Naw. It's not her size that throws people off, it's the ear floofies.



Runs fast, bites hard. 



GatorDog said:


> All I know is that my dog is only 50lbs so I don't think she's actually a German Shepherd.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Keep doing what you're doing then Sue.
> 
> I'm glad you've realized in America you don't need titles. Who cares about temperament in America? As long as they lay on couch and don't bite little Timmy...they're perfect.
> 
> ...


and that dog l buy in America, better have a 3 year guarantee on health.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> The SV doesn't recognize whites as German Shepherds therefore I don't recognize the SV.


The SV's decision to remove whites from the GSD breed in hindsight, didn't hurt the whites. Because they were removed from the GSD breed, they were allowed to become a new breed in the FCI (Berger Blanc Suisse) and no longer live in the shadows of the GSD or the prejudices that followed them around for so many years. 
I'm pretty sure the SV didn't have that in mind when they stopped registering them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The SV's decision to remove whites from the GSD breed in hindsight, didn't hurt the whites. Because they were removed from the GSD breed, they were allowed to become a new breed in the FCI (Berger Blanc Suisse) and no longer live in the shadows of the GSD or the prejudices that followed them around for so many years.
> I'm pretty sure the SV didn't have that in mind when they stopped registering them.


It is funny with the white's. If you look back at the history to when Max got his original stock - they were both whites and they both resembled the sought after body type at that time.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The SV's decision to remove whites from the GSD breed in hindsight, didn't hurt the whites. Because they were removed from the GSD breed, they were allowed to become a new breed in the FCI (Berger Blanc Suisse) and no longer live in the shadows of the GSD or the prejudices that followed them around for so many years.
> I'm pretty sure the SV didn't have that in mind when they stopped registering them.


and because they are a Berger Blanc Suisse they don't fall under the German Shepherd breed restrictions. Yeah not a bad deal. 

BTW I love your avatar picture. Your dogs are beautiful!! :wub::wub:


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> All I know is that my dog is only 50lbs so I don't think she's actually a German Shepherd.


FCI standard states 48 lbs as the low end for a female. After my monster doofus I would kill for a 50lb dog  haha


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> It is funny with the white's. If you look back at the history to when Max got his original stock - they were both whites and they both resembled the sought after body type at that time.


Horand was Max's founding dog and was not white. His grandsire was


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> Horand was Max's founding dog and was not white. His grandsire was


There are photos of two white dogs that Max purchased. They both look a lot like GSD's in the photos. Are you saying that these two whites were not used as foundation dogs to establish the breed?

I must admit, when I read the story and saw the photo of these two white dogs (that another man had done all the work into developing) my thought was that Max in essence already had a very good basis for his plans. Many people think that Max had this "visionary" ability and took dogs of all sorts of breeds to make the GSD. The photos of the two whites and the back story however, suggest he was already 90% there because of the work the other man performed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> and that dog l buy in America, better have a 3 year guarantee on health.


And if you import one from Germany, how much of a health guarantee do you get?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> into buying an "Old fashioned straight backed" 100 plus pound GSD. I am glad I learned more about the breed, in part thanks to this forum.


And there is the thing, the dog you are happy to have avoided, sounds exactly like the type I am happy to have rescued!

If I am asked, I always explain he is a OS WL GSD. I've heard more than once the "that's what they used to look like when I was growing up" refrain. 

Many of us had no idea what we were getting other than GSD. "Serious" dog people aren't going to be looking for a 100+ dogs and "Serious" pet people don't care about a "Seven" year working life.

You can't "hide" the OS dogs and the more "bad press" they get the more intrigued people get about them!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> And there is the thing, the dog you are happy to have avoided, sounds exactly like the type I am happy to have rescued!
> !


Exactly this !!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> There are photos of two white dogs that Max purchased. They both look a lot like GSD's in the photos. Are you saying that these two whites were not used as foundation dogs to establish the breed?
> 
> I must admit, when I read the story and saw the photo of these two white dogs (that another man had done all the work into developing) my thought was that Max in essence already had a very good basis for his plans. Many people think that Max had this "visionary" ability and took dogs of all sorts of breeds to make the GSD. The photos of the two whites and the back story however, suggest he was already 90% there because of the work the other man performed.


I don't know of the photo you mention or the 2 white dogs. 

It is well known Horand (named Hektor at the time and renamed after purchase) was seen by Max at a dog show and purchased, the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde was founded by Max, and Horand was registered as the first german shepherd











His subsequent progeny that were most prized as breeding stock and original founders of the breed


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Horand with Mary v Grafrath, the 2nd registered GSD. Horand was 24" tall












Next to Hektor v. Schwaben, Peter von Pritschen was another offspring of Horand and prominent founder and one of my favorite original german shepherds.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> And there is the thing, the dog you are happy to have avoided, sounds exactly like the type I am happy to have rescued!
> 
> If I am asked, I always explain he is a OS WL GSD. I've heard more than once the "that's what they used to look like when I was growing up" refrain.
> 
> ...


Good one Chip. There will probably be a run on old fashioned oversize breeders after this thread.

Anubis: I think Pilot looks like he weighs about 110 lbs. What do you think?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Good one Chip. There will probably be a run on old fashioned oversize breeders after this thread.
> 
> Anubis: I think Pilot looks like he weighs about 110 lbs. What do you think?


Haha don't know if you're being serious or not, but since Horand was big for his time and he was 24" (so I would assume around 75lbs), I find that highly unlikely


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Holy cow this got intense.

All I can add is my girl is 11 months old, 24" atw, and 73 lb. She needs to stop growing! Her parents aren't huge and she's just a regular American show line dog.

The guy who said a GSD should be 70 lb or under was closer to correct in my opinion. I think according to the AKC standard she can be up to 24" tall and 75 lb. Oops.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Haha don't know if you're being serious or not, but since Horand was big for his time and he was 24" (so I would assume around 75lbs), I find that highly unlikely


Well we could ask Doc, cause he was friends with Max but that would just start everything going again.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Haha don't know if you're being serious or not, but since Horand was big for his time and he was 24" (so I would assume around 75lbs), I find that highly unlikely


Tasha is 25 inches if I'm measuring her right. To the shoulder? At last vet appointment she weighed 92# .


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well we could ask Doc, cause he was friends with Max but that would just start everything going again.


I didn't know Doc was friends with Max. I hope I didn't offend him.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Tasha is 25 inches if I'm measuring her right. To the shoulder? At last vet appointment she weighed 92# .


She is overweight.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My older boy was 25". 107 lbs at his heaviest, this photo was taken when he was about 98lbs. NOT an appropriate weight for his size. After 2 years of dieting and working through his spondylosis, I got him down to 80lbs when he passed away. My goal for him was 75lbs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Keep doing what you're doing then Sue.
> 
> I'm glad you've realized in America you don't need titles. Who cares about temperament in America? As long as they lay on couch and don't bite little Timmy...they're perfect.
> 
> ...


Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.

Many who post here have learned through time via life experience that very little is black and white. I hope one day, to see a post from you that indicates that you learned something from another.

You have much to offer and I am not discounting your sincerity and dedication to the breed. Hopefully, through time, you also will gain a deeper understanding of human beings and why there are arguments in what appears to be to you, an "uneducated" difference of opinion.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> She is overweight.


You have no polite filters do you? First people with OS dogs are ruining the breed and now my dog is fat? Really!!??

An old time saying but true still none the less. You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> You have no polite filters do you? First people with OS dogs are ruining the breed and now my dog is fat? Really!!??


You're the one bragging that she's 92lbs. She is overweight. I didn't need to know her height or weight to come to that conclusion. I looked at her picture. So I change my mind on one thing - you don't have an OS dog in her, just an overweight one. Notice I did counter that with my own fat dog - thanks dad for letting him lick your dinner plate clean every night and loading him up on beef jerky.

Stop taking everything as an insult! Take some things as appropriate advice, and maybe do what's right by her health and knock off 20lbs.

I have no place for filters when it comes down to medical advice. Again, it's not an insult, just honesty. Because dogs age so much faster than people we see the detrimental effects of obesity on their bodies much faster. A recent study showed overweight labs lived on average 3 years LESS than a lab that was a body score of 3.5/9.


Berlin is 28" and 83lb because he's still immature at only 2 yrs old. But even once he fills out I can't imagine he'll be much bigger than 90lb - 95 lbs max. Because I keep him at a 3-3.5/9


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> You're the one bragging that she's 92lbs. She is overweight. I didn't need to know her height or weight to come to that conclusion. I looked at her picture. So I change my mind on one thing - you don't have an OS dog in her, just an overweight one. Notice I did counter that with my own fat dog - thanks dad for letting him lick your dinner plate clean every night and loading him up on beef jerky.
> 
> Stop taking everything as an insult! Take some things as appropriate advice, and maybe do what's right by her health and knock off 20lbs.


I'll take health advise from my vet thanks, not some random stranger over the Internet.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I didn't know Doc was friends with Max. I hope I didn't offend him.


Doc maybe has a few years behind him but he's not *that* old.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I'll take health advise from my vet thanks, not some random stranger over the Internet.


Do what you will. If your vet hasn't told you your dog is overweight, you might want to find a new vet. But hey, whatever


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> You have no polite filters do you? First people with OS dogs are ruining the breed and now my dog is fat? Really!!??
> 
> An old time saying but true still none the less. You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.


And again, I NEVER said people that own OS dogs ruin the breed. Weren't you just lecturing someone about reading comprehension? Or was that someone else on this thread?

I stated that people who desire oversized dogs, therefor seeking out breeders focusing on producing 130 lb monster dogs, are highly detrimental to the breed.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> Horand with Mary v Grafrath, the 2nd registered GSD. Horand was 24" tall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Peter's butt is higher than his withers. I thought that was a no-no?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Do what you will. If your vet hasn't told you your dog is overweight, you might want to find a vet. But hey, whatever


Walking away before I type something that gets me banned!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> You have no polite filters do you? First people with OS dogs are ruining the breed and now my dog is fat? Really!!??


I don't think she was being rude. I have a lot of vet tech friends, and I worked as a vet assistant during undergrad. Pointing out a dog being overweight is kind of par for the course for them when they deal with the repercussions of it day in and day out. 

The thing about a lot of the "OS" gsds, is a lot of their 'over size" is due to obesity and not "healthy weight." Even some of the top "old fashioned" breeders I can think of off the top of my head....if you look at their websites the dogs are grossly over weight. 

Anubis your statement that my cobra racer quoted and his subsequent post sum up my feelings on this exactly. The gsd should be able to do it all. You shouldn't have to go to one breeder for one thing and another breeder for another. A breeder shouldn't pick one or two dogs in a long process of breeding that brought us the working german shepherd dog (imo they should be able to all work) and base his/her entire program on a single step in a long path. 

I know the OS breeders represented by some that defend the "program" on here....it's ludicrous to me because one of the first arguments is how crappy sport has made the breed, yet as Anubis pointed out, they turn around and support just as big an extreme, just as much a funnel of genetics, only at a different part of the spectrum. They have no balance in their programs, no "jack of all trades" that can "do it all". They have just another extreme to the sport people. It's all silly. Breeders that breed for pet, sport, work, companion, hiker, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING are the ones that should be held up and recommended. Not the ones with zero proof of substance and not necessarily the ones that have a bunch of sport titles. It's definitely not an easy task, for a newer or inexperienced person, to be able to tell what makes a "good breeder."

And for what it's worth, I came onto this site not knowing much and had my ego smacked down by some of those that got me into sport and competitive training. They had a lot of knowledge and experience and I learned a lot from them (most in real life, some on this forum that I then met in real life). Sticking my head in the sand and getting my feelings hurt didn't get me anywhere. Soaking up knowledge, getting out there and training my dog with people who have accomplished a lot....that's where experience and knowledge started to be built. Believe it or not I almost had a deposit down with one of the "famous" "old fashioned" breeders and this site and people in real life changed my mind. So I disagree shepherdmom, I don't think all pet people get more entrenched in their "wants" nor do I think discussions like this will push the towards OS. I think it enlightens many, brings out the curious in a few....and then there are some that just don't care.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Peter's butt is higher than his withers. I thought that was a no-no?


Foundation stock are never ideal which is why there is so much heavy inbreeding. They are simply starter building blocks. Peter is only second generation of a completely new breed. It's not until you get into the 1920s and the last few siegers picked by Max in the 1930s before his death that you really see a solid, consistent form and shape come together.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Anubis_Star said:


> I don't know of the photo you mention or the 2 white dogs.
> 
> It is well known Horand (named Hektor at the time and renamed after purchase) was seen by Max at a dog show and purchased, the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde was founded by Max, and Horand was registered as the first german shepherd
> 
> ...


Friedrich Sparwasser - whites and sables 1870's Horand was purchased from Sparwasser - if you search back on the Sparwasser name you will find the photos and see what I'm referring to. As far as I can see Max had the money and the means to finish Sparwasser's dream.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well I agree at least quite a bit with Dani. 

Some of those that are so against OS GSDs forget that the problems arise from their own sacred cow as well. People breed specifically for k9, sport, show, color, pet, etc...

What's the difference? . Gsd should be a versatile dog but I guess not many people want that anymore. They now need to be specialized for eveyone's likes and dislikes

It's really unfortunate.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Friedrich Sparwasser - whites and sables 1870's Horand was purchased from Sparwasser - if you search back on the Sparwasser name you will find the photos and see what I'm referring to. As far as I can see Max had the money and the means to finish Sparwasser's dream.


Yes, Horands grandsire was white, but there were no white dogs in the founding stock of the breed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Yes, Horands grandsire was white, but there were no white dogs in the founding stock of the breed.


Max's vision was to standardize the German shepherding dogs and he began that journey years before he started the SV and registered Horand. 

He used in many cases, non-standarized herding and shepherd dogs both before and after the SV was founded to bring in qualities he wanted for his breed. The dogs like the one shown below along with the smooth coated long stocks were both used. Eventually those dogs became known as "Altdeutsche Hütehunde" ("Old German Herding Dogs") and were no longer used in the GSD breed. If I'm not mistaken these shaggy dogs were often larger than the other dogs used in the breed. 

First picture is from the first edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures. Other two pictures just for the heck of it.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Max's vision was to standardize the German shepherding dogs and he began that journey years before he started the SV and registered Horand.
> 
> He used in many cases, non-standarized herding and shepherd dogs both before and after the SV was founded to bring in qualities he wanted for his breed. The dogs like the one shown below along with the smooth coated long stocks were both used. Eventually those dogs became known as "Altdeutsche Hütehunde" ("Old German Herding Dogs") and were no longer used in the GSD breed. If I'm not mistaken these shaggy dogs were often larger than the other dogs used in the breed.
> 
> First picture is from the first edition of The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures. Other two pictures just for the heck of it.


Yes, Max was a member of the Phylax Society in the early 1890s, which sought to standardize native breeds to germany, such as the numerous sheep herding types. And Max realistically cared very little for color, especially in the beginning. Form follows function. Working dogs. I'm sorry I may of misspoke, when I said founding stock I was implying dogs registered and descended from Horand that were very notable in the first few generations. Hektor, pilot, beowulf, peter, etc 

As far as size, I'm not sure if they were larger. As I mentioned, Horand was considered large for the time and he was 24". I know in 1927 Max picked a 27" dog for sieger which was very out of the norm for him. He did not prefer overly large dogs because they hindered on overall working capabilities, but did obviously choose them from time to time if he felt other values added to the breed as a whole


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad Max kept changing type after Pilot...that face is disturbing.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Phylax society existed prior to Max coming into the picture. Ultimately, most of the members of his newly founded organization were former members of the Phylax society.

Perhaps there is a case of semantics here. We are talking about a day month and year that an organization was formed and committee members appointed as opposed to what was obviously a breeding program that was well on its way to resembling the GSD as we know him today.

IMHO, Max simply had the means to establish control, refinement and management of the new breed which so much hard work was already put into. His idea was not new, it was not an "out of the blue" inspiration that was gifted only to him. This was a process and as you can see, the effort was around for many years before he got involved. Whites are definitely there. I guess it depends on if you want to start the history of the breed when the paperwork was filed or look past that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad Max kept changing type after Pilot...that face is disturbing.


Hey, they couldn't photoshop back then


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.
> 
> Many who post here have learned through time via life experience that very little is black and white. I hope one day, to see a post from you that indicates that you learned something from another.
> 
> You have much to offer and I am not discounting your sincerity and dedication to the breed. Hopefully, through time, you also will gain a deeper understanding of human beings and why there are arguments in what appears to be to you, an "uneducated" difference of opinion.


First, I'm not 20. Second, no matter my age, I have more experience in this breed than 99% of the people on this forum. I've probably seen more German Shepeherds, of all sorts of lines, in the short time I've been "in" the breed, than most people will see in their lifetime. Not only have I seen them, many times I've also spoken to their handlers and breeders at length about the dogs and about why they do what they do.

The arguments I'm talking about are the one's that are just "this is how I want it and that's how I'll have it." There is no basis for it. It's just what it is. If, as a GSD owner, you believe that the breed is supposed to be 120lbs. You are uneducated. There is no other word for it. Maybe delusional? But really...there is no other way to explain why someone would search out an OS GSD other than PERSONAL PREFERENCE which is not based in any sort of historical fact. I don't care that people do that, but that's the only word for that opinion. If you can't back it up with anything other than your own extremely limited experience with GSD (usually the GSD they grew up with), it's not really a valid fact. So it's just an opinion, and you shouldn't really guide other people's decision making with YOUR opinion. Especially when it comes to something way bigger than you, like the GSD breed.

The point of having a BREED is so that things are as close to BLACK AND WHITE as possible. If it wasn't, you'd just have a bunch of mutts.

I hope that one day you decide to take your dog to actual protection training, or maybe agility, or maybe some other sport...and it performs like you want. Or maybe, you'll take it to one of those venues, and the dog won't do it. You'll understand what I mean then.

The way breeders make "pet dogs" these days is simple...take out all the drive. Dogs without drive are safe, they don't make their own decisions, they don't want to do anything period. My point originally was don't quote Max, or some long lost literature on the origins of the breed if you're going to completely discount the fact that this was always supposed to be a working breed. If you want to use Max to back up your point that "OS GSD" were acceptable, you should also accept the SV, you should accept Schutzhund as a breed test. You can't just accept the parts of what he said that you like, and dismiss the parts that he said that make you do more work to breed dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DaniFani said:


> So I disagree shepherdmom, I don't think all pet people get more entrenched in their "wants" nor do I think discussions like this will push the towards OS. I think it enlightens many, brings out the curious in a few....and then there are some that just don't care.


Exactly this...

There are people that will listen, will learn, will understand that the first website they found on Google about GSD is incorrect. If you went to one OS GSD website, then you found this forum, and get 15 people telling you that OS GSD isn't correct, you'll quickly realize that that first website isn't one to listen to and maybe you continue your search and look into some things posted by members of this forum.

Now...if you just don't care, and came on this forum for acceptance because you thought that people would agree with you and then you can show the thread to your SO to convince them that you should get or do X, then you won't listen anyways, get "ticked," leave, and do what you want anyways. There's no changing those people, there's no reason to try, and like I stated pages ago, I'm not about to compromise my standards just so that person doesn't go to a puppy mill but gets a dog from a glorified BYB instead.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

You can't discuss the Standard without understanding the early history of the breed - the breeders, the dogs, and even the infighting of the founders of the SV (Stephinitz wasn't the only man involved in creating this breed, although he dominated and eliminated many of the best breeders along the way). The Standard isn't the same as it was when Stephinitz wrote it - so to talk about it as the Holy Grail is humorous in my opinion. People quote the Standard and Stephinitz as if they are one in the same, but they are not. Yes Stephinitz built this breed and wrote a Standard based on his desires. However, his Standard has been re-written many times by folks who imposed their desires about the breed. Add that to the fact that judges - who were breeders long before they became judges; many who were/are kennel blind; the loose application of many aspects of whatever Standard they are using; the abuse of power; greed; and money and there is little doubt why this breed is in a downward fall. To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.
If you want, PM me and I will be happy to have a dialogue about the Standard with you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

overweight seems to be the constant with oversize...seeing ribs must be scary to those that like the OS? Why is bigger better?
Why is weight always included in the dogs description of the OS breeders? What happened to achievements being a way to describe them instead of how much they weigh?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't realize you were such good friends and knew so much about him! Fill me in when you get a chance.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

RE: The post to which you were responding. What of substance was incorrect in what Max stated? What Max stated was the absolute truth. I'm 51 and work daily with people who want to have dogs that behave exactly as Max outlined, backyard to food dish to couch.

His age is as irrelevant as the age of my last surgeon, who is younger then me, yet saved me from an infected port.

I used to think with age came wisdom, when I was younger. What I have learned as I've grown older is that often with age comes rigidity and a lack of flexibility physically and mentally. I'm working to avoid becoming that way myself. 

Argument to authority of sorts, is not anything of substance.




Stonevintage said:


> Martemchik, you are are only 20 years old. There are many things that will shape and influence your point of view over your lifetime.
> 
> Many who post here have learned through time via life experience that very little is black and white. I hope one day, to see a post from you that indicates that you learned something from another.
> 
> You have much to offer and I am not discounting your sincerity and dedication to the breed. Hopefully, through time, you also will gain a deeper understanding of human beings and why there are arguments in what appears to be to you, an "uneducated" difference of opinion.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Doc said:


> To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.


Sadly, it falls on deaf ears. It isn't the specifics of the war, it's the act of the battle.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What exactly are your bona fides on this topic? I really don't know.



Doc said:


> You can't discuss the Standard without understanding the early history of the breed - the breeders, the dogs, and even the infighting of the founders of the SV (Stephinitz wasn't the only man involved in creating this breed, although he dominated and eliminated many of the best breeders along the way). The Standard isn't the same as it was when Stephinitz wrote it - so to talk about it as the Holy Grail is humorous in my opinion. People quote the Standard and Stephinitz as if they are one in the same, but they are not. Yes Stephinitz built this breed and wrote a Standard based on his desires. However, his Standard has been re-written many times by folks who imposed their desires about the breed. Add that to the fact that judges - who were breeders long before they became judges; many who were/are kennel blind; the loose application of many aspects of whatever Standard they are using; the abuse of power; greed; and money and there is little doubt why this breed is in a downward fall. To debate height and weight of the breed is the least of the worries for the future of the German shepherd. It all goes back to understanding studying the history of the breed.
> *If you want, PM me and I will be happy to have a dialogue about the Standard with you*.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I'm not about to compromise my standards just so that person doesn't go to a puppy mill but gets a dog from a glorified BYB instead.


and that attitude of yours and others is what is going to be the downfall of the GSD not anything those of us who have "fat" shepherds ever do.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> and that attitude of yours and others is what is going to be the downfall of the GSD not anything those of us who have "fat" shepherds ever do.



Quite the opposite, that is going to make sure that there are still shepherds being bred which match the breed standard and are capable of what this breed should be capable of.

Btw...I didn't call your dog fat. So if you're going to fling insults, fling them at the people that have "insulted" you. Don't bring me into your petty fights with others and make people that might not go back to read the prior pages think that I was the one that said those things about your dog. I didn't. I have not said a single bad thing about YOUR dog, or anyone else's dog.

Truthfully, the only people that have gotten personal...have been you and stonevintage. That's what ends up happening when you run out of facts to back up your position, name calling and then an attempt at discrediting the person you're having a discussion with by bringing up things that have nothing to do with the current subject.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like an equitable solution for both sides. 

I don't think the genes which specifically produce a white coat were ever missed 'that' much? 

In my little ole world it would be o.k. to have some whites in a litter if those genetics brought along other positive aspects.

I think the WGSLs have made a mistake getting hung up on black and reds...btw.




Whiteshepherds said:


> The SV's decision to remove whites from the GSD breed in hindsight, didn't hurt the whites. Because they were removed from the GSD breed, they were allowed to become a new breed in the FCI (Berger Blanc Suisse) and no longer live in the shadows of the GSD or the prejudices that followed them around for so many years.
> I'm pretty sure the SV didn't have that in mind when they stopped registering them.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD? 
Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. Argumentum ad Hominem. 



martemchik said:


> Quite the opposite, that is going to make sure that there are still shepherds being bred which match the breed standard and are capable of what this breed should be capable of.
> 
> Btw...I didn't call your dog fat. So if you're going to fling insults, fling them at the people that have "insulted" you. Don't bring me into your petty fights with others and make people that might not go back to read the prior pages think that I was the one that said those things about your dog. I didn't. I have not said a single bad thing about YOUR dog, or anyone else's dog.
> 
> Truthfully, the only people that have gotten personal...have been you and stonevintage. That's what ends up happening when you run out of facts to back up your position, name calling and then an attempt at discrediting the person you're having a discussion with by bringing up things that have nothing to do with the current subject.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> Didn't realize you were such good friends and knew so much about him! Fill me in when you get a chance.


I'm not. That information is only something he posted about himself when he was explaining to women how their bodies worked in a previous post.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

martemchik said:


> First, I'm not 20. Second, no matter my age, I have more experience in this breed than 99% of the people on this forum. I've probably seen more German Shepeherds, of all sorts of lines, in the short time I've been "in" the breed, than most people will see in their lifetime. Not only have I seen them, many times I've also spoken to their handlers and breeders at length about the dogs and about why they do what they do.
> 
> The arguments I'm talking about are the one's that are just "this is how I want it and that's how I'll have it." There is no basis for it. It's just what it is. If, as a GSD owner, you believe that the breed is supposed to be 120lbs. You are uneducated. There is no other word for it. Maybe delusional? But really...there is no other way to explain why someone would search out an OS GSD other than PERSONAL PREFERENCE which is not based in any sort of historical fact. I don't care that people do that, but that's the only word for that opinion. If you can't back it up with anything other than your own extremely limited experience with GSD (usually the GSD they grew up with), it's not really a valid fact. So it's just an opinion, and you shouldn't really guide other people's decision making with YOUR opinion. Especially when it comes to something way bigger than you, like the GSD breed.
> 
> ...


this is actually a pretty good post and does go to the heart of many viewpoints here. i will just add, that take 10 gsd aficionados put them in a room to discuss the standard and they will emerge with 10 different interpretations. now, my opinion for what it is worth. the gsd already has been split a few times. we have the different lines. the good news is that there are now flavors for all. the purest will protect and continue to strive to better the WL. the american showline have their niche as do the germ showline. 

as for oversize, and yes there are some that for whatever reason want the 100 pound plus gsd. i would check out king and shilo shepherds. imho, basically fairly new breeds although advertised as old style. now let the bashing begin.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Quite the opposite, that is going to make sure that there are still shepherds being bred which match the breed standard and are capable of what this breed should be capable of.
> 
> Btw...I didn't call your dog fat. So if you're going to fling insults, fling them at the people that have "insulted" you. Don't bring me into your petty fights with others and make people that might not go back to read the prior pages think that I was the one that said those things about your dog. I didn't. I have not said a single bad thing about YOUR dog, or anyone else's dog.
> 
> Truthfully, the only people that have gotten personal...have been you and stonevintage. That's what ends up happening when you run out of facts to back up your position, name calling and then an attempt at discrediting the person you're having a discussion with by bringing up things that have nothing to do with the current subject.


I didn't say you called my dog fat. You were not that impolite. Which I appreciate by the way. The lack of manners around here is appalling. 

You are however in denial about the fact the pet market is driving things. As much as you and others hate it we spend billions on our dogs a year and those looking for our $$ will continue to cater to whims. Unless you and others like you decide to get flexible the Byb and Puppy Mills will win and the German Shepherd and other breeds are going to be the causalities.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
> Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.


imho, the small gene pool is bringing down dog breeds, not standards.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:

It's a free market world, which is good when it comes to widgets.

The reality is there are GSD looking dogs which are large like Shilohs and Kings, which is fine. If that's someone wants that more power to them.

What I don't get is why disregard or totally dismiss the standard for the GSD in order to support getting an intentionally bred out of standard dog? 

It's not a zero sum game, getting a Shiloh, loving it and appreciating it as a Shiloh doesn't hurt the GSD just as loving and having a GSD (bred to the standard) doesn't hurt the Shilohs. :shrug:






misslesleedavis1 said:


> I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
> Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> RE: The post to which you were responding. What of substance was incorrect in what Max stated? What Max stated was the absolute truth. I'm 51 and work daily with people who want to have dogs that behave exactly as Max outlined, backyard to food dish to couch.
> 
> His age is as irrelevant as the age of my last surgeon, who is younger then me, yet saved me from an infected port.
> 
> ...



so wrong here. i knew much more in my late teens and early twenties than i do now in my late 50's. lol


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## familydag5 (Jan 24, 2015)

As a pet owner I too am very grateful for the knowledge and wisdom shared by those so devoted to the GSD, thank you.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> I didn't say you called my dog fat. You were not that impolite. Which I appreciate by the way. The lack of manners around here is appalling.
> 
> You are however in denial about the fact the pet market is driving things. As much as you and others hate it we spend billions on our dogs a year and those looking for our $$ will continue to cater to whims. Unless you and others like you decide to get flexible the Byb and Puppy Mills will win and the German Shepherd and other breeds are going to be the causalities.


Flexible about what? If they get too flexible won't they just be another byb, puppy mill operation? Pumping out dumpy frumpy puppies that can't work?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This is true, it is how the free market works. Which is why what Max stated earlier, back yard, to food dish, to couch is accurate for many non-sporting dog owners. 

There are also breeds that cover those bases, looks like a GSD, acts like a Golden, has the size of St. Bernard. Shilohs and Kings.

I love to watch the Shark Tank. One thing those guys shy away from are good ideas which require 'too much consumer education'. GSDs fall into the category. Most complicated breed in the world as I say.

Having said that, there is a passionate, and based on my observations, growing group of people who are becoming more educated about GSDs. This forum is evidence of that. I go to the Dobermann forum, the Golden forum and the traffic and membership is much less. GSDs maybe #2 or #3 on the AKC list but they #1 as far as passionate followers (aka GSD nerds.  ). The FB German Shepherd Community is huge! That's a generator of a lot of misinformation too....but lately it's been about 'get a WL' because they never have health problems, but it's a shift. 

A good many like me, Dani, Max too, GypsyGhost, Leslee evolve our views because of what we learn about this wonderful breed of dog. 

Letting go of old perceptions isn't a sign of weakness or disloyalty to your current dog(s). It's just a process of life we all go through. You can evolve and still love the dogs currently napping by the hearth too. 

AAAAAaaaauuuummmmmm. eace:




shepherdmom said:


> <snipped>
> You are however in denial about the fact the pet market is driving things. As much as you and others hate it we spend billions on our dogs a year and those looking for our $$ will continue to cater to whims. Unless you and others like you decide to get flexible the Byb and Puppy Mills will win and the German Shepherd and other breeds are going to be the causalities.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I guess as many have stated, it really doesn't matter. Someone who wants a big old fashioned gsd will always beable to hit the Internet and find one. For those who want a dog that can work and comes from titled and rated lineage, there will always be breeders for them. Their are different lines anyone could choose from, different coats. It a large selection in the long run.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Buddha Hound says, live in the moment, go play with your dogs!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I just don't see how someone not wanting to compromise their standards could be the downfall of the GSD?
> Lots of people don't want to pay 1500.00 for a pup so does that mean ethical breeders who sink tons of money into their program should cut the price to an easy 400.00 just to please the consumer? No. If you can't afford it, you go elsewhere. I would not want to buy a living breathing being from a breeder that changes their ethics on a whim just to please the general population.


Its pure numbers. There are more pet people than sport and club and show combined. Most do not participate on this board and most don't care what the standards are and they don't want to be educated. They will buy what they want and will continue to stay away from places like this board where they constantly are insulted about their shepherds. This board could channel those people into better health testing and breeders and also into being better pet owners if they spent less time on insults and derogatory comments and more time on listening and helping. They could do the same in real life. But I'm sure they will continue to drive people away and turn them off instead by insisting they know all, that they are better educated, and that they know what the original old dead guy wanted exactly.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Personally, I steer people who ask me, away from GSDs for the most part. It's not an easy breed to research, purchase, own and train for most people.

I just saw an ad on our local pet rescue/adopt FB page of people who were rehoming a cat. Reason, 'we don't have the time to give it the care and attention it needs'. 

A cat, one cat, was too much work!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> But I'm sure they will continue to drive people away and turn them off instead by insisting they know all, that they are better educated, and that they know what the original old dead guy wanted exactly.


Honestly, the folks who are members of this board and who actually have the experience and knowledge to post, stay away from threads such as this. Others just like to fluff their feathers and post away. :shrug:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Honestly, the folks who are members of this board and who actually have the experience and knowledge to post, stay away from threads such as this. Others just like to fluff their feathers and post away. :shrug:


Amen to this. They got mad as h--- and couldn't take it anymore.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Its pure numbers. There are more pet people than sport and club and show combined. Most do not participate on this board and most don't care what the standards are and they don't want to be educated. They will buy what they want and will continue to stay away from places like this board where they constantly are insulted about their shepherds. This board could channel those people into better health testing and breeders and also into being better pet owners if they spent less time on insults and derogatory comments and more time on listening and helping. They could do the same in real life. But I'm sure they will continue to drive people away and turn them off instead by insisting they know all, that they are better educated, and that they know what the original old dead guy wanted exactly.


Stop falling back onto that thought process of "boo hoo, you hurt my feelings" just because one opinion was made about how people who buy from BYBs were hurting the breed, and because a couple facts you don't agree with were stated.

What you're expecting is for an entire breed to be changed to suit your desires, and THAT request astounds me. That's more insulting, IMO, to the entire breed as a whole and the community that loves and fights for that breed than anyone ever saying your dog is overweight, which was NEVER meant to be an insulting comment. You're so hung up on sports vs pets and there being this big divide. But there shouldn't be. Berlin is my pet and companion, first and foremost. The majority of his litter went to pet homes. We do schutzhund because it's fun. Not because we're serious national level competitors. 

If you want to talk about what the old dead guy wanted, he never wanted high drive kenneled sport dogs. He wanted solid, stable, family dogs that would do good at any work they did while living in the home with their owner. He didn't want dogs kenneled. He didn't want dogs sold from home to home to home. Really he wanted a B average dog. A dog that could do anything well. Dogs like that don't excel, because when you excel in one thing there becomes divides, like there are now. Super drivey sport dogs don't usually make good pet dogs, or guide dogs, etc. 

Why do you even want a GSD if you don't like what a GSD is suppose to be? It's like you going to a Ford dealership, and telling them you wanted a mustang but you wanted it to look like a Toyota Prius because you liked that shape better. And why on earth should a Ford dealership start pumping out Prius clones simply because you want a Prius with a Ford emblem stamped on to it? Which I would never understand because OBVIOUSLY Toyotas are much better


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Slap the hood emblem on a Civic and call it a Ferrari.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?

A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".

Then you take that dog and put him into the environment where 90% or better end up - in a home as a pet. Yea, that will work out just fine. 

So those that want the standard are saying that the vast majority of people who own and enjoy the GSD breed shouldn't have them? Are you saying that they should take a high drive dog and keep him in a crate or house most of the day because there is a concern for escape, theft or poisoning while they are away from the house?

Standing on principal is one thing, practicality and reality should also be considered.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Shepherdmom…how is any of us supposed to educate people if they don’t want to be educated? The few that come on here, get insulted because they get told that an OS GSD is incorrect, then leave…they don’t make that big of a dent. Like you said…the majority of GSD owners don’t go on web forums, they do what they want anyways. I can’t affect those people in any way, shape, or form. I don’t insult anyone, I really don’t care what your dog looks like, what you choose to do with it, ect. You’re right…most people are “pet owners” and guess what, my breeder sells more than 50% of their dogs to pet homes, out of the same litter…that produced a national IPO competitor this year, and out of a future litter that will also have a national IPO competitor in there. What you don’t want to accept…is that out of a litter of dogs, bred for sport/show/work/whatever, if done right, there will be puppies that would be more than happy living in a pet home. It’s impossible to place 10 puppies into Schutzhund or working homes…they go to pet homes, and they live happily in those homes.

There weren’t any derogatory comments and no one insulted dogs, the statements that were made, were TAKEN as insults. When someone says “breeding OS GSD is wrong,” people equate that to “my OS GSD is bad.” That’s not even close to what people are saying. I’m not even sure why you’re arguing this, your bitch is 1” above standard, she’s not what is generally considered OS. I’ve seen dogs and breeders who consistently produce GSDs at or above 30” at the withers. That’s the crazy I’m talking about. More than likely, your bitch was produced by two standard sized dogs that for some reason threw a larger puppy. It happens.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't know shepherdmom, the majority of people on this forum are very helpful and nice. If their is a question about pedigree or health someone is always around to answer it. I guess it's all in how you read things. There is always going to be one or 2 that go on a tangent but that's really in anything you do in life. 
Lots of people, pet people get GSD'S for whatever reason, they may choose to do research about the breed or not. They may come here and get told their dogs crappy? Which is never nice but it's either going make you go "oh, okay what's crappy about the dog" or its going to make you angry and hurt, but these are just opinions and every has one.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?
> 
> A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".
> 
> ...


Like stated earlier...your lack of experience with the types of dogs we're discussing leads you to believe that a "good working dog" can't be in a family environment and not be worked in Schutzhund. This is an extremely popular opinion of people that have done a lot of reading on the internet, and not actually seen how dogs that excel at Schutzhund, or even police dogs, have littermates that are living out their lives in family homes.

I currently have a bitch in my house, who I expect to see at the IPO nationals this year, her sibling (same litter) is a K9 in Florida, the rest of her 8 siblings, are living out happy, healthy lives in family homes just like yours. My other bitch, has a sibling that was at nationals last year, has a sibling that is currently IPO2 and will trial for a 3 this year (owned by a woman in her 60s), has a sibling that will also be trialing for Schutzhund in the near future, and she will hopefully also title by the end of the year. My bitch, lived with a 65 year old woman for the first 2 years of her life, and the only reason I have her is that the woman had a stroke. The other 3 siblings from her litter...are all in nice, family homes, and have never seen a bite sleeve in their life.

The idea that regular people can't handle a good, well bred GSD, just lets me see how little faith you have in yourselves and in others. It's not that difficult. A dog with a little more drive isn't the end of the world. I know for a fact that 95% of people on this forum could handle a dog that comes out of the litters I just talked about...with working K9s and high level IPO competitors.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Stop falling back onto that thought process of "boo hoo, you hurt my feelings" just because one opinion was made about how people who buy from BYBs were hurting the breed, and because a couple facts you don't agree with were stated.


I'm not the one you are scaring away. They have already left. But according to Lillie and Jack's Dad the real experts also have already left, which doesn't sunrise me either. In any case my little 40 lb mix is crawling up on my lap demanding attention and then I have to go get ready for work. We can continue this later if the thread is still open when I get home.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Side note.
I'm a pet person with not 1 or 2 but 3 crappy dogs. I love them though. So they are not the "standard" although one looks real good! 
It doesn't stop me from reading or posting or chatting it up with people that have experience. I enjoy reading what they say,I like learning about the history and really like the IPO sports.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> So, in the perfect world, setting aside peoples personal needs or preferences and sticking to the standard, what would you have?
> 
> A dog that is well within standard. A dog that is able to work and has good temperament and drive. A dog that is healthy. One that can compete in the trials and is "proven".
> 
> ...


I am saying many people that own german shepherds shouldn't. And that is made obvious by the high number of poorly bred german shepherds that are plagued with health problems and poor temperaments.

That being said, there is no reason a solid, stable, well bred WL dog can't be kept as a pet if given proper stimulation. This means you do something with your dog. Run it daily. Bike with it. Swim it. Train it daily - mental stimulation is key. That's the nice thing about german shepherds vs some breeds like malinois - they actually tend to have off switches. Any of berlin's siblings are perfectly capable of doing well in IPO. Only 3 actually are doing IPO. the other 6 are perfectly happy, healthy, active, well loved pets.

My dog is not kept crated all day because he's good in the house. But there is nothing wrong with crating a dog while you are at work, again if you simply cater to their mental and physical needs as outlined above.

And yes, if you don't have the active lifestyle to train and exercise a high energy dog, then you should NOT have a german shepherd or any other working breed! I don't understand why that concept is so hard to understand.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm not the one you are scaring away. They have already left. But according to Lillie and Jack's Dad the real experts also have already left, which doesn't sunrise me either. In any case my little 40 lb mix is crawling up on my lap demanding attention and then I have to go get ready for work. We can continue this later if the thread is still open when I get home.


This is why kids can't win trophies in many schools anymore. God forbid facts or statements insult anyone.

And really I only say that, because for those of us (un)fortunate enough to work in the veterinary or behavior field, we get to see first hand what happens when you start to water down and breed dogs to suit the uninformed, uneducated majority.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I see maybe 2-5 GSD's a day and can't identify any of them according to the standard. They're all upwards of 90lbs, BYB dogs that are muzzled on their way through the door and blowing their anal glands because they're terrified of slippery floors or of the 120lb female technician that walks in to help them. And I'm not exaggerating. In one week when I see upwards of 10 GSD's not a single one has a stable enough temperament to hold themselves together at the vet.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

But hey, that must be easier to deal with than a dog bred for work. Because I honestly can't see the reasoning to support that type of breeding otherwise.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I see maybe 2-5 GSD's a day and can't identify any of them according to the standard. They're all upwards of 90lbs, BYB dogs that are muzzled on their way through the door and blowing their anal glands because they're terrified of slippery floors or of the 120lb female technician that walks in to help them. And I'm not exaggerating. In one week when I see upwards of 10 GSD's not a single one has a stable enough temperament to hold themselves together at the vet.










GatorDog said:


> But hey, that must be easier to deal with than a dog bred for work. Because I honestly can't see the reasoning to support that type of breeding otherwise.



Exactly

All of my coworkers hated german shepherds until they met my german shepherds


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> as for oversize, and yes there are some that for whatever reason want the 100 pound plus gsd. i would check out king and shilo shepherds. imho, basically fairly new breeds although advertised as old style. now let the bashing begin.


Hmmm....yeah...OK...suffice to say, an OS GSD is "not" a Shilo or a King.

I don't quite get how it is that "some" of the "experts" tend to think that because "our" OS GSD's dogs fall out on one spec "weight" that seems to somehow meant...they are not GSD's and none of the other attributes of a GSD are present?????


Yeah...that would be a mistake, in some cases...just saying.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm....yeah...OK...suffice to say, an OS GSD is "not" a Shilo or a King.
> 
> I don't quite get how it is that "some" of the "experts" tend to think that because "our" OS GSD's dogs fall out on one spec "weight" that seems to somehow meant...they are not GSD's and none of the other attributes of a GSD are present?????
> 
> ...


 Seriously…stop making this about your ONE dog. This is a completely theoretical, macro discussion. It’s not about your ONE dog. On top of that…how many GSD, King Shepherds, or Shiloh Shepherds have you interacted with? Like, seriously interacted, where you spent more than just 5 minutes with the dog, or seen it in passing? On top of that, how often have you really been able to tell what is temperament, and what is training? How do you know that the traits your dog shows are what is expected out of a GSD? What makes YOUR dog the perfect example of GSD temperament and the breed? Have you had outside, non-biased, experienced people judge your dog and give you their opinion on your dog? The point is (nothing to do with your dog) what makes YOU a good judge of GSD character and temperament? What have you done in your life, that when you look at your dog, you know it’s a prime example of the breed? Or is your opinion highly biased, and basically based on just the small amount of experience you probably had with a few GSD growing up?

That is the difference between many “sport/show” people, dog trainers, and even people that work at vets, and then the pet homes. WE SEE A LOT MORE SHEPHERDS. We see tons of dogs. I was in a club, that had 250 members, most of which owned at least one dog, if not two dogs. I got to interact with and watch over 100 dogs get trained on any given weekend. I currently train with a group of people and see anywhere from 10-20 dogs at one location and a different 10-20 dog at a different one every weekend. I get to see the dogs, talk to their handlers, talk to their breeders many times. I have a lot more than just a Wikipedia definition of what a breed temperament should be like…

Tell me…what is the difference in temperament between a GSD and a King Shepherd? A “breed” of dog that is basically 95% GSD, and probably 100% GSD just that they picked the biggest ones, bred them, and got tired of getting flack from “GSD purists” and so they “created” a new breed. Btw…not an AKC or FCI recognized breed, and it will never be because there isn’t enough variation away from GSD.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm....yeah...OK...suffice to say, an OS GSD is "not" a Shilo or a King.
> 
> I don't quite get how it is that "some" of the "experts" tend to think that because "our" OS GSD's dogs fall out on one spec "weight" that seems to somehow meant...they are not GSD's and none of the other attributes of a GSD are present?????
> 
> ...


I could be wrong here, but I don't think anyone is saying that over sized GSD's are not GSD's. I think what people are saying is that GSD's should not be bred JUST because they are large. I think the problem many have with those who breed out of standard GSD's is that size may not be the only thing that doesn't conform to breed standards. I think this is why Shiloh Shepherds, King Shepherds and Berger Blanc Suisse breeds were created. They wanted a different set of standards. That's ok! Hopefully they are successful in their endeavors and breed solid, less drivey dogs that aren't designed to work, but still have good health and good temperaments. Hopefully there will be good breeders of those breeds that health test and have a clear vision of what they want for that breed. 

I personally think the Berger Blanc Suisse is a beautiful dog, it just didn't fit what I wanted for my lifestyle. I also think King and Shiloh Shepherds are beautiful, but I couldn't imagine asking a dog that large to keep up with me. That doesn't mean they aren't wonderful dogs. It also doesn't mean they shouldn't be around, or are any less wonderful than GSD's for the right person. But they still need a breed standard if they are going to become established. Otherwise, how do you know you are getting what you want?

I really hope no one thinks I am bashing their dogs here, that was not my intention.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

People were bragging about the 140lb GSD in my lobby just the other day. He had to be moved to a room immediately because he was so dog aggressive that he couldnt see another dog at all without completely losing it (caution notices all over his chart) and the owner isn't strong enough to hold him back. So I set him up in a room and the woman continues to tell me it's because he's "just protective" and his sire was even bigger and "wouldn't let anyone on their property because he was so fiercely protective."

I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.




^^^ this!!!! My wife goes through this everyday. People don't get it. Then when a Gsd comes in and wife says it's garbage she's called a snob and a purist. Funny thing is, when we bring our dogs in, no one believes they do protection work because they don't try to eat everything that moves. Try and explain its because they are actually confident, so they don't need to try and "scare" off every little thing and you get the deer in the headlights look like you don't know what you're talking about.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Tell me…what is the difference in temperament between a GSD and a King Shepherd? A “breed” of dog that is basically 95% GSD, and probably 100% GSD just that they picked the biggest ones, bred them, and got tired of getting flack from “GSD purists” and so they “created” a new breed. Btw…not an AKC or FCI recognized breed, and it will never be because there isn’t enough variation away from GSD.


I know "enough" to know there is a significant difference! all I need to know.

In any group there is always that one guy! So"I" can't speak for people pet but "you" get to slam all OS dogs??


Well I Do represent JQP to a degree and what "we" hear is:







Crap yeah we get it "We Don't Care!"

Sorry did not realize that some members:









To answer your question, no I have not done 100's or 1000's of dogs only a handful and a couple of those were challenging. 

The undercurrent in the OS thread seems to be that our dogs are lumbering and weak nerved, crap bags that snap at vets???

Well my "one" OS GSD is not like that and there are others like him! So for purposes of this "thread" the fact that I live trained and rehabbed the type of dog that is the subject matter of this thread, qualifies me to speak up!!

So if you want the thread locked??? Keep saying stuff like that about "our" dogs!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> I could be wrong here, but I don't think anyone is saying that over sized GSD's are not GSD's.


Nope not originally but "We" were told that if "we" want a 100+ pointy nose dog we should get something else!





GypsyGhost said:


> I think this is why Shiloh Shepherds, King Shepherds and Berger Blanc Suisse breeds were created. They wanted a different set of standards. That's ok! Hopefully they are successful in their endeavors and breed solid, less drivey dogs that aren't designed to work, but still have good health and good temperaments. Hopefully there will be good breeders of those breeds that health test and have a clear vision of what they want for that breed.
> 
> I personally think the Berger Blanc Suisse is a beautiful dog, it just didn't fit what I wanted for my lifestyle. I also think King and Shiloh Shepherds are beautiful, but I couldn't imagine asking a dog that large to keep up with me. That doesn't mean they aren't wonderful dogs. It also doesn't mean they shouldn't be around, or are any less wonderful than GSD's for the right person. But they still need a breed standard if they are going to become established. Otherwise, how do you know you are getting what you want?
> 
> I really hope no one thinks I am bashing their dogs here, that was not my intention.


No problem and yes that is the why of the Shilo's and the kings!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The fact that you ignored/didn’t answer any of my questions, tells me everything I need to know about your experience with all 3 “breeds.”

I never once said anything bad about OS Shepherds in my post, you can scan through it, nowhere in there is OS even typed. So I’m not sure why you’re getting angry and saying I’m lumping them all into one group. I didn’t. The dogs I am lumping into a group are the non-temperament tested dogs, the dogs that aren’t bred for any purpose except for the fact that they look this way or that way. Like I said about 10 pages ago…I’ve yet to see a single breeder, that advertises “over-sized, traditional, ect” GSD that temperament tests their dogs beyond them living in their house and not eating their family members. There are a few out there that accomplish a CGC with their dog, something most dogs can do at 6 months of age, especially dogs that don’t have that “drive” I’ve been talking about. Less drive, calmer dog, passes the test. Pretty simple.

Like I said…point me to a GSD breeder, that is breeding oversized dogs, and is also temperament testing them the way the breed founder imagined, and I’ll be more than happy if you got a dog from that breeder. I still haven’t found them.

So you’ve rehabbed one dog…good. I’m very happy for you and for the dog. It’s a huge accomplishment. But you have more than one person on this thread, that sees dozens of German Shepherds, telling you how things are with the breed, but you choose to live in your blissful world of the handful of dogs you’ve owned so they must all be like the ones you’ve owned. The dog you rehabbed? Do you know what happens to that kind of dog if he doesn’t find a home willing to rehab it? He got lucky he found you. Most of those dogs, don’t make it very long in life. Now…are there dogs that come from working lines, or show lines, that end up having those issues? Absolutely! But overall, it’s not the dogs that are coming from highly titled parents and reputable breeders that have those problems.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> People were bragging about the 140lb GSD in my lobby just the other day. He had to be moved to a room immediately because he was so dog aggressive that he couldnt see another dog at all without completely losing it (caution notices all over his chart) and the owner isn't strong enough to hold him back. So I set him up in a room and the woman continues to tell me it's because he's "just protective" and his sire was even bigger and "wouldn't let anyone on their property because he was so fiercely protective."
> 
> I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.


At 130 pounds I would question what exactly that dog was myself??

In any case, it's a dog that is going to need some "serious" help if he is ever going to be right.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

So the fact my female is supposed to get to 90# isn't a good thing?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

ILoveBella478 said:


> So the fact my female is supposed to get to 90# isn't a good thing?


German shepherds are not suppose to be that big


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

ILoveBella478 said:


> So the fact my female is supposed to get to 90# isn't a good thing?


I wouldn't say so.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

ILoveBella478 said:


> So the fact my female is supposed to get to 90# isn't a good thing?


My concern with OS is purely from a health standpoint. My vet also said he thought around 90lbs for my female pup. She's 70lbs and the weight gain and height (26") stopped 3 months ago when she was 8mos old.

My breeder said she could get to 80lbs but try to keep her at 70lbs for health. She was right on with her estimate. 

I wasn't looking for OS at all. I looked at 3 litters before I chose. Litter 1 pup already had "a bit of sensitive tummy trouble and was on special food" Litter 2 had very strange looking sire and aggressive dam. Litter 3 wanted crazy money for pet quality. So, I chose from litter 4. Slightly oversize but outside of that has everything I was looking for.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> People were bragging about the 140lb GSD in my lobby just the other day. He had to be moved to a room immediately because he was so dog aggressive that he couldnt see another dog at all without completely losing it (caution notices all over his chart) and the owner isn't strong enough to hold him back. So I set him up in a room and the woman continues to tell me it's because he's "just protective" and his sire was even bigger and "wouldn't let anyone on their property because he was so fiercely protective."
> 
> I'm legitimately embarrassed when I tell coworkers at my new job that I have GSD's because their initial reaction is to ask me why Id want one. The only ones they've ever seen are completely out of control with major temperament flaws, and it blows their mind to know that mine are not only stable, but 50 and 80lbs respectively. If that's not the cause of the "downfall", then I don't know what is.


The thing is though, that nerve and temperament problems are in every nook and cranny of the breed not just in over sized dogs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jack's Dad said:


> The thing is though, that nerve and temperament problems are in every nook and cranny of the breed not just in over sized dogs.


That's the point. Is this a conversation over who's dog is less screwed up? My dog is less worse than your dog....


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The point is that I see BYB dogs with nerve issues on a much more consistent basis than dogs that have been tested according to a standard.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think this has run its course. 

ADMIN


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