# Not one...but TWO dog fights in one walk!!



## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

So I have been lurking this forum for a few days now, but today I have decided to break out of my shell and share a story about my day today that I can't just keep to myself..

I was walking my GSD mix Spencer around my development today, just enjoying the weather, when I was passing a neighbor's house who is a long time family friend and also the owner of two pitbulls. I was actually talking to one of the family members literally 2 minutes before this circumstance occurred. The girl's brother was outside with one of their pitbulls, a dog I have met a couple of times and who was always very friendly to me. It was offleash and as soon as it saw Spencer and I, it came charging at full speed like it was on fire. I knew exactly what was going to happen, and I know Spencer is extremely dog aggressive, so I just stood back and waited for the inevitable. I would have stood in front of him if it were either of my other 2 dogs, but Spencer is all muscle and I am only a 19 year old girl. The dog hit Spencer full blast and he immediately absorbed the shock and pinned the pitbull to the ground by its neck. He latched on with his teeth and just started shaking the absolute heck out of this other dog. The guy (in his mid 20's, very built and muscular) came running towards us and drop kicked both of the dogs in the face to stop the fight (all I could think of to do was to scream at Spencer to let go, however he was too far gone) and the pitbull ran home with its tail between its legs. All I could say was, "I am so sorry for that," but he was already in his yard and said that it was no problem, it was his dog's fault and that he was going to kick her *** when he got to her. I was shook up to say the least and in complete shock, also some pain because when he kicked the dogs his elbow came up and hit me right in the jaw and snapped it shut and for some reason the tip of my pinky is in A LOT of pain. I think that's because he kicked my pinky when he kicked the dogs as I had my hand close to Spencer's collar trying to pull him off. Surprisingly my dad was coming up in his car right behind me and gave the guy an earful about keeping his dog leashed; I just kept walking.

Onto story number two...

During this walk I planned on going to the mailbox at the front of my community to get the mail, and I was determined to stick to my guns. I got to the mailbox and got the mail and was on my way home when I passed a house that has a black lab. This lab gets loose about once every week or so (of course when the owners are not home, so the dog is at large all day long) and today was one of those days. Earlier I had seen the dog loose running in my neighbor's yard, but this was many hours later and I figured they had gotten it inside by now. Boy was I wrong. As I passed the house, I saw the dog was loose sitting by the front door. It started barking at us but stood there, so I was really hoping it would just stay there. Wrong again. The dog started trotting towards us barking, and I just tried to drag Spencer home, but to no avail as the dog was circling around us. In the dog's defense, it looked like it wanted to play, but Spencer was in NO MOOD to play with a dog he does not know. Meanwhile as I am struggling to just drag my dog past this other dog, the owners are standing at their front door just watching. A few minutes into it they finally come out of the house (girls my age) and all they have to say as they chase their dog and try to get it is "Sorry he broke his chain and we can't catch him."  I was FUMING at this point but I had no energy to ream these girls a new one so all I said was "It's okay." Ironically, my dad was coming around the corner in his car again to go to the store and stopped. Thankfully then I was able to get past the dog because it finally stopped circling and drag him home as my dad got out of his car and started blasting into the owners about how their dog is constantly getting loose and to keep it leashed. They just kept saying how he got loose earlier when they weren't home and they can't catch him, but my dad didn't want to hear it. At this point I was drenched in sweat and literally shaking from all of the adrenaline coming and leaving my body, so I just tried to get home without any more problems. Luckily, I finally did.

To put the icing on the cake, when I got home I called my girlfriend and told her what happened. Her response was "I don't know why you bother walking those dogs, you need to just stay in the house."  I said I shouldn't have to live in fear of walking my dogs, plus I enjoy walking them and I enjoy being outdoors with them. Ugh.

Owners, even when you are in your yards and you think your dog won't charge someone walking by, you could be wrong, so PLEASE keep them leashed at all times!!!

Sorry for the long post, but man has it been one of those days!!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Glad you or the dog were not seriously hurt. Maybe your dad reaming a few behinds will work.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Thank you! So am I. Luckily when Spencer was fighting with the pitbull it didn't get a tooth near him. I made sure to check all over his body for any wounds but none were present!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am going to pick on a line here: "but Spencer is all muscle, and I am only a 19 year old girl."

Uhg! 

Ok. It sucks that your neighbors do not have control over their dogs. But no way does that give you the right to take a dog about that you cannot control, or that you will fail to protect because you are "just a girl." 

I will tell you what, when I was 18, I was faster, thinner, stronger, than I am now in my forties, but no way would I just let any breed of dog get into it with my dog! If you are 120#, then get yourself an edge, get some pepper spray, or a bottle of ammonia or citronella. Just letting your dog get into a fight, especially if the dog is dog aggressive and you know it is unacceptable. 

You need to use your big girl voice, the one that can curdle new milk, and tell these dogs to GO HOME! The vast majority will go away with just knowing that you are there, strong, and let them know it. 

If you cannot protect or control your dog, maybe you should not have a dog. I say that not to encourage you to get rid of the dog, but to make you see that you failed your dog in these episodes, and you need to come up with a better solution than letting your dog control the situation. And, if you cannot walk safely in your neighborhood, put the dog in the car and take him to a safer location to walk him. 

You may be only a 19 year-old girl, but you are the human, you can use your brain and tools and foresight. You had better be much better equipped to deal with situations than your dog. Dogs when left in control usually make a bad job of it. This is because they are living in a human world, not a dog world. They are running on canine instincts, not human morals and values, backed up by understanding the consequences of actions.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

The dog was honed in on my dog, I knew there was no stopping it, and I know he can handle his own, so why would I put my own life at risk? I love my dogs like they are my children but they are not children, they are dogs. I can control my dog but I cannot control someone else's that does not listen. The dog's owner was yelling and screaming for his dog to stop, so why would it stop for me? I did not fail him, he did his job which is to protect me. This has never happened to me before in all of my life so I did not feel the need to carry anything on me. I wished it didn't happen, I did not invite the dogs to charge us nor did I LET it happen. Some things are just unavoidable, such as this situation.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Terrible incidents... so sorry you had to deal with it, but glad Spencer is okay.

You need to take charge of the situation. You need to get some sort of tool to assist you in controlling him. You can use a head halter or a prong, anything to give you control. You also need something to defend yourself and Spencer with. I like to walk with a bamboo stick, and I have hit several dogs with it before to protect myself and my dog. Pepper spray is another great idea.

I would also work on some serious obedience. Something simple like making him lay down and stay down while you step to the front and control the oncoming dog is all you need. Despite your size and gender, you CAN take control. I am by no means a big muscular female, but when things go bad I am the one taking control regardless of what I have to arm myself with to do it.

In the end, there will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be stupid, irresponsible owners and potentially dangerous dogs to deal with. As a dog owner you need to accept this reality and do whatever you must to control the situation and the outcome. There are obviously times when you cannot, things are out of your hands, today's events don't fall into that category.

Good luck!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

KellySue said:


> The dog was honed in on my dog, I knew there was no stopping it, and I know he can handle his own, so why would I put my own life at risk? I love my dogs like they are my children but they are not children, they are dogs. I can control my dog but I cannot control someone else's that does not listen. The dog's owner was yelling and screaming for his dog to stop, so why would it stop for me? I did not fail him, he did his job which is to protect me. This has never happened to me before in all of my life so I did not feel the need to carry anything on me. I wished it didn't happen, I did not invite the dogs to charge us nor did I LET it happen. Some things are just unavoidable, such as this situation.


Well now you know, what will you do differently?


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

The thing is that he does have a halter and a prong on with two leashes when I walk him so I can have as much control as I can, and when the dog came at us Spencer just stood there with his ears up and did not move. The dog wasn't a mile away, it was only a few feet away in its yard and I was in the street. From now on I will bring something with me but there has never been the need in the past as most of my neighbors are responsible dog owners.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you realize that this could have been very different? The dog could have gotten its jaws around your dog's neck first. Your dog could have deep lacerations, or could even have been killed because no one present could get them apart. The best way to get dogs apart is to not let them connect. 

Frankly, if a dog comes charging at mine, I will step out in front, give the dog the command to go home in the right terms, and if necessary take the bite. I am not afraid of getting killed by a dog, I am not under six, and I am not over eighty. If my dog gets bit up by some dog, then the chances are, I will have to take it to the vet, pay through the nose, bury the dog or clean its wounds and help him recover, and then go after the people for the vet bill, and good luck for that.

But if the dog bites me, I go to the hospital. I can sue the owner for all the hospital bills and then some, and then pay them. 

The hospital ER hast to treat me, money or no. The ER vet does not have to treat my dog on a promise of payment when the other owner's pay up.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Well then that is where we differ. I am not willing to take a dog bite when I know my dog can handle it. As I said if it were my other two dogs who are much different than Spencer than yes I would try to take the brunt of the situation, but again as I said a dog is a dog. We got these dogs to protect our family, and he did what he was supposed to.

And besides, you are not understanding what I am saying. There was no stopping this dog, and if you were there you would have seen that. Even if I wanted to put myself in front of Spencer there was no time. It happened in a split second. Same goes for if I was carrying mace. I wouldn't have even had time to get it out of my pocket let alone spray it. You are blaming me for someone else's loose dog attacking my leashed dog. I fail to see how this is anybody else's fault except the owner of the loose dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you listen to this site, even the most responsible dog owners can have a lapse in their security. True it usually happens when their bitch is in heat, than the intact male that is available just happens to be the same breed. But if we on here, the dog-people, might leave a gate open, or let our dog open the front door and waltz out, then people who are not crazy about dogs and own a pet might be that much more likely to leave their defenses down. So we have to be ready for any eventuality.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

KellySue said:


> Well then that is where we differ. I am not willing to take a dog bite when I know my dog can handle it. As I said if it were my other two dogs who are much different than Spencer than yes I would try to take the brunt of the situation, but again as I said a dog is a dog. We got these dogs to protect our family, and he did what he was supposed to.


Well, we will differ on this. I am not leaving my defense in the hands of an animal with a mentality of maybe a 5-6 year old child. Maybe today he defends me against a big bad pit bull. Maybe tomorrow he needs to defend me against a Yorkie. Maybe another day he needs to defend me against an old man, or a small child. 

Your other dogs are worth so much more than this dog, you don't want them bitten, but this mutt, well, he can take it. I would rather clean my own wounds than my dog's wounds any day. But then, I do not have them to protect me. I have wasp spray and other items for that.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm not in the "a dog is a dog" camp, either. They're far more than that to me. I'd take the bite as well. 

I can understand it all happened in a split second -- those things do. I'm not capable of standing back and letting my dog fight it out, though. Just not in me. I'd be screamin, kickin, hollerin and probably getting bit.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Then why do people train for schutzhund? Or why do we have police dogs? To protect people, and our society. Police send the dogs in first if they are there, what do you say to them? To risk the life of the officer before the life of their police dog? If a yorkie was charging us, or a baby, or an old man, Spencer knows better than to "attack" them. I do not tell my dog to attack other people or animals for the fun of it. A dog charged and attacked ME and MY dog, why are you so adamant on putting my dog and I in the blame? A chihuahua came running out of its yard and up to us once a very long time ago and he didn't even pay any mind to it. Of course he is going to bite a huge dog that body slams and attacks him. No I will not protect my other two dogs moreso than him, I just know he can handle it because one of my other dogs is small and one is old. If I could lift him up out of the way as I can with my other dog than I would have. Try to remember that dogs are not people. I think you are having a hard time realizing this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm glad everyone is ok. But why are you walking an "extremely dog aggressive" dog around without a muzzle? I understand that the dogs attacked him however this statement..



> The dog hit Spencer full blast and he immediately absorbed the shock and pinned the pitbull to the ground by its neck. He latched on with his teeth and just started shaking the absolute heck out of this other dog.


tells me that Spencer wasn't just defending himself, he was trying to end the other dogs life. You need to read the dangerous dog laws for PA...with your thought about a dog is a dog and you'll let him defend himself, you might end up defending yourself in court when a person gets bit trying to get your dog off of theirs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Well then that is where we differ. I am not willing to take a dog bite when I know my dog can handle it. As I said if it were my other two dogs who are much different than Spencer than yes I would try to take the brunt of the situation, but again as I said a dog is a dog. We got these dogs to protect our family, and he did what he was supposed to.
> 
> And besides, you are not understanding what I am saying. There was no stopping this dog, and if you were there you would have seen that. Even if I wanted to put myself in front of Spencer there was no time. It happened in a split second. Same goes for if I was carrying mace. I wouldn't have even had time to get it out of my pocket let alone spray it. You are blaming me for someone else's loose dog attacking my leashed dog. I fail to see how this is anybody else's fault except the owner of the loose dog.


I personally would take the bite for any of my dogs too. The problem with the situation was that the pit bull was going right for your dog not you, your dog stood still, which did give you the opportunity to step in front of him to get the other dog away. I highly doubt the pit bull would have bit you, he wanted your dog. I agree that things could have turned out much differently and I wouldn't want my dogs, GSD or not to go up against any dog, much less a pit bull. You might think the dog is a dog and you got him to protect you, but in this case he was protecting himself because no one else did I would just avoid the areas that these dogs are when your walking your dog, its not worth your dog getting injured or injuring someone else. I'm sure it wasn't pleasant when that man kicked your dog in the face either and he really doesn't have a right to blame his dog for something that he could have controlled to begin with.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

KellySue said:


> Then why do people train for schutzhund? Or why do we have police dogs? To protect people, and our society. Police send the dogs in first if they are there, what do you say to them? To risk the life of the officer before the life of their police dog? If a yorkie was charging us, or a baby, or an old man, Spencer knows better than to "attack" them. I do not tell my dog to attack other people or animals for the fun of it. A dog charged and attacked ME and MY dog, why are you so adamant on putting my dog and I in the blame? A chihuahua came running out of its yard and up to us once a very long time ago and he didn't even pay any mind to it. Of course he is going to bite a huge dog that body slams and attacks him. No I will not protect my other two dogs moreso than him, I just know he can handle it because one of my other dogs is small and one is old. If I could lift him up out of the way as I can with my other dog than I would have. Try to remember that dogs are not people. I think you are having a hard time realizing this.


Simply a difference of opinion/mentality. Doesn't make you right or wrong, nor me right or wrong. I don't need to "remember" dogs aren't people. Of course they aren't. I'm not having a hard time realizing anything. I'm just saying what I would do, nothing more.

I am not putting you in the blame. I don't think anyone really did, as everyone knows these things happen *fast*; it was more about your comment that you'd let him deal with it. Some people would allow that and others wouldn't. Again, a difference in thinking. I was once attacked on this forum for saying I would step in and take a bite. Plenty do feel that way. No need to get defensive.

My dogs aren't here for my defense. They're my pets.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> Then why do people train for schutzhund? Or why do we have police dogs? To protect people, and our society.


I think you need to do a bit of research on Schutzhund


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Then why do people train for schutzhund? Or why do we have police dogs? To protect people, and our society. Police send the dogs in first if they are there, what do you say to them? To risk the life of the officer before the life of their police dog? If a yorkie was charging us, or a baby, or an old man, Spencer knows better than to "attack" them. I do not tell my dog to attack other people or animals for the fun of it. A dog charged and attacked ME and MY dog, why are you so adamant on putting my dog and I in the blame? A chihuahua came running out of its yard and up to us once a very long time ago and he didn't even pay any mind to it. Of course he is going to bite a huge dog that body slams and attacks him. No I will not protect my other two dogs moreso than him, I just know he can handle it because one of my other dogs is small and one is old. If I could lift him up out of the way as I can with my other dog than I would have. Try to remember that dogs are not people. I think you are having a hard time realizing this.



So since the dog isn't a person its okay for them to get mauled protecting themselves because their owner didn't? I suppose at that point said owner would just go get another dog because they can be replaced rather quickly because after all they are just a dog?


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

I was trying to be very civil with you and stating that our opinions differed but you decided to ream me by calling my dog a mutt and getting sarcastic. I know not everyone will agree that a dog is a dog, but to each their own. Now that the situation has happened I know how to deal with it. I have read countless stories about people trying to defend their dog and I tried to picture myself doing the same thing when I would read, but in the heat of the moment, I froze and did not know what to do. All of my previous attempts of being prepared left my brain and like Spencer, I just stood there. Neither of us were expecting it. If I were to muzzle him, how would he be able to protect himself in a situation such as this one? If there was no owner and I could not get the dog off him, what would happen? Just because he is dog aggressive doesn't mean he needs to be punished. He would be instant dog meat. I have tried head halters on him for this reason but he would not have any of it. My dogs are my pets as well, but they are also my protection.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

KellySue, I don't feel that you had a choice. You did the best you could. I also get very frustrated at people with "friendly" dogs who think that their dogs are special and should be allowed off leash in their yards.

I am with you on the "dogs are dogs". I believe that they were put on this earth to serve us, not the other way around. Yes, we have a responsibility to keep them well cared for and safe, but within reason. I am not taking a bite from a pit bull for my dog. What if that pit bull had done so much damage to say, your hand, that you could not use it anymore. I have four kids and need the function of my hands. I love my dogs like crazy, but they are dogs, not people. Oh, and you are not acting like a 5 year old kid by letting your dog protect you. 

If aliens came to earth tomorrow, they would probably think that dogs ruled the earth. We follow them around and pick up their poop, dress them, put them in baby bjorns and strollers, and some would probably even step in front of a bus for their dogs. 

I am sure I will make some people upset, but some of you are being way too hard on her.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> So since the dog isn't a person its okay for them to get mauled protecting themselves because their owner didn't? I suppose at that point said owner would just go get another dog because they can be replaced rather quickly because after all they are just a dog?


I am not repeating myself. It happened in a heartbeat, there was nothing I could do, the situation is over and done with. And your last statement is uncalled for. Just because I know my dog is a dog and not a person does not mean my dogs are easily replaced.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

meldleistikow said:


> KellySue, I don't feel that you had a choice. You did the best you could. I also get very frustrated at people with "friendly" dogs who think that their dogs are special and should be allowed off leash in their yards.
> 
> I am with you on the "dogs are dogs". I believe that they were put on this earth to serve us, not the other way around. Yes, we have a responsibility to keep them well cared for and safe, but within reason. I am not taking a bite from a pit bull for my dog. What if that pit bull had done so much damage to say, your hand, that you could not use it anymore. I have four kids and need the function of my hands. I love my dogs like crazy, but they are dogs, not people. Oh, and you are not acting like a 5 year old kid by letting your dog protect you.
> 
> ...


Thank you, you said exactly what I am trying to say but with much better wording.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> Do you realize that this could have been very different? The dog could have gotten its jaws around your dog's neck first. Your dog could have deep lacerations, or could even have been killed because no one present could get them apart. The best way to get dogs apart is to not let them connect.
> 
> Frankly, if a dog comes charging at mine, I will step out in front, give the dog the command to go home in the right terms, and if necessary take the bite. I am not afraid of getting killed by a dog, I am not under six, and I am not over eighty. If my dog gets bit up by some dog, then the chances are, I will have to take it to the vet, pay through the nose, bury the dog or clean its wounds and help him recover, and then go after the people for the vet bill, and good luck for that.
> 
> ...


Excellent mentality!

To the OP - better take heed. Your dog is a liability, not protection


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

meldleistikow said:


> I am with you on the "dogs are dogs". I believe that they were put on this earth to serve us, not the other way around. Yes, we have a responsibility to keep them well cared for and safe, but within reason. I am not taking a bite from a pit bull for my dog....


See! I told you, OP, plenty of people are in your camp on this. They'll eventually chime in and your thread will possibly become a madhouse of opinions soon enough.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

chelle said:


> See! I told you, OP, plenty of people are in your camp on this. They'll eventually chime in and your thread will possibly become a madhouse of opinions soon enough.


I sure hope my first thread does not become a huge argument, that is not what I am trying to do!!   What a first impression!


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Excellent mentality!
> 
> To the OP - better take heed. Your dog is a liability, not protection


I don't see how HE is the liability? He did not instigate, he did his job.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> I sure hope my first thread does not become a huge argument, that is not what I am trying to do!!   What a first impression!


Every thread on here turns into an argument at some point. Don't worry about it.

But please do seriously consider muzzle training your dog. I'm not questioning your decision to get out of the way but am questioning the wiseness of walking a dog with such extreme dog aggression that his first instinct is to go for the kill spots.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Every thread on here turns into an argument at some point. Don't worry about it.
> 
> But please do seriously consider muzzle training your dog. I'm not questioning your decision to get out of the way but am questioning the wiseness of walking a dog with such extreme dog aggression that his first instinct is to go for the kill spots.


Wouldn't any dog's instinct be the kill spot when threatened in such a manner?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> I don't see how HE is the liability? He did not instigate, he did his job.


He is a liability. I have two dog aggressive dogs. One fear aggressive and one just plain out and out dog aggressive who doesn't make a sound when she attacks.

If a person got hurt, god forbid a child, while trying to separate your dog from theirs then you are looking at a lawsuit. And it's very easy to get hurt while pulling dogs apart.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> Wouldn't any dog's instinct be the kill spot when threatened in such a manner?



No. Jax's instinct is defense (my FA dog). She'll bite at legs, shoulders. Sierra (our DA dog) goes straight for the throat. Any dog that goes for the throat or stomach is going with the intent to end the other dogs life. Especially when they are shaking the other dog like yours did.

Dogs have fight and flight. Quite often, a dog will choose flight over fight.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> He is a liability. I have two dog aggressive dogs. One fear aggressive and one just plain out and out dog aggressive who doesn't make a sound when she attacks.
> 
> If a person got hurt, god forbid a child, while trying to separate your dog from theirs then you are looking at a lawsuit. And it's very easy to get hurt while pulling dogs apart.


I agree to an extent, but I have enough control over my own dog that he will not start any fight when in my presence, but I see your concern.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> No. Jax's instinct is defense (my FA dog). She'll bite at legs, shoulders. Sierra (our DA dog) goes straight for the throat. Any dog that goes for the throat or stomach is going with the intent to end the other dogs life. Especially when they are shaking the other dog like yours did.
> 
> Dogs have fight and flight. Quite often, a dog will choose flight over fight.


Ah I see. But again it's back to my worry about if he were to be attacked when muzzled, no owner present, and I cannot detach the dogs from one another - he has no means to protect himself.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I hope you are right but I think you are in denial. Did you give him a command to engage that pitbull? If not, then he just engaged in a fight and you had no control over him other than to scream at him which was not working per your above post.



> (all I could think of to do was to scream at Spencer to let go, however he was too far gone)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

KellySue said:


> I don't see how HE is the liability? He did not instigate, he did his job.


If it was a mugger with a knife trying to slit your throat, he did his job. In this case, no.




Jax08 said:


> I hope you are right but I think you are in denial. Did you give him a command to engage that pitbull? If not, then* he just engaged in a fight and you had no control over him other than to scream at him which was not working per your above post.*


And this is why.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> Ah I see. But again it's back to my worry about if he were to be attacked when muzzled, no owner present, and I cannot detach the dogs from one another - he has no means to protect himself.


Agreed that is a concern. but you would only have to beat off the other dog. Your dog would not be "attached". In this instance, mace or a break bar would be your best bet anyways even if he wasn't wearing a muzzle.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I hope you are right but I think you are in denial. Did you give him a command to engage that pitbull? If not, then he just engaged in a fight and you had no control over him other than to scream at him which was not working per your above post.


No I did not tell him to engage with the other dog. However I do not expect him to roll over and let the dog gnaw on his stomach. He has never been in a fight before, but with some dogs there is no way to make them release except by force, such as an APBT. I suppose I should invest in a break stick.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> No I did not tell him to engage with the other dog. However I do not expect him to roll over and let the dog gnaw on his stomach. He has never been in a fight before, but with some dogs there is no way to make them release except by force, such as a APBT. I suppose I should invest in a break stick.


Or a Boxer (Sierra). I do understand. Have had to "detach" Sierra from Jax throat more than once. And I agree that he should be able to defend himself if needed. But, from experience, once a dog engages and makes contact they gain confidence. Next time it will be harder to get him back under control. Then, he'll start the fight. It does escalate and it's not pretty.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Or a Boxer (Sierra). I do understand. Have had to "detach" Sierra from Jax throat more than once. And I agree that he should be able to defend himself if needed. But, from experience, once a dog engages and makes contact they gain confidence. Next time it will be harder to get him back under control. Then, he'll start the fight. It does escalate and it's not pretty.


Yes that is understandable. I really wish I could teach him the "leave it" command, but he is so thick headed and not a puppy anymore, so I fear I won't be able to teach this old dog any new tricks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sure you can! You just need to figure out a way to speak dog! I taught Leave it but putting a treat on the ground and having one in my hand. When she went for the one on the ground, I put my foot over it. Didn't say anything, just put my foot over it to block it. When she looked up at me, I gave her the treat out of my hand. Once I did that a few times and she started looking at the ground treat and then back at me, I told her Leave It and treated her.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> If it was a mugger with a knife trying to slit your throat, he did his job. In this case, no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A dog does not know the difference between a mugger with a knife and a pit bull. To a dog, a threat is a threat. I believe that even a very well trained dog is not going to sit there and take a pit bull attacking it. 

I am sure that her dog is dog aggressive, but she seems to have control over him. You can't control other people's dogs. I don't agree with the muzzle. If that pit bull decided to attack and her dog had a muzzle on, who knows what would have happened to her dog. The owner of the pit bull is in the wrong completely.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

I do agree with Jax08 about teaching him "leave it". The more obedience you do with him, the stronger your bond and the more controllable he will be and less of a liability.

If I were you, I would look at a trainer to help with dog aggression. If he will let a little dog come up to him without a problem, I don't think his problem is that bad. You said this was his first fight? Has he gone after dogs before? You might have already said it, but I missed it. Sorry.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What part of PA are you in? There are many PA members here that can recommend trainers.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Laws about dogs are funny things and vary state to state.
I don't have an issue with a dog warding off an attack but trying to kill another dog is an entirely different manner.
And I still think we exist to protect our dogs, not the other way around, unless there is an actual threat. 
There's many things a prepared owner can do to ward off a charging dog. I'd step in front and put my foot up, personally - while hollering, as selzer said "GO HOME!!" You'd be amazed at how many dogs will stop and listen to that - the foot out is a deterrent because not many dogs would expect that.
An airhorn, etc. There's a lot of things you can do to stop this sort of mayhem before it starts.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

KellySue said:


> I sure hope my first thread does not become a huge argument, that is not what I am trying to do!!   What a first impression!


Ahh don't feel bad. I broke in pretty much the same way. Sure didn't mean to, different topic, but same result.



KellySue said:


> Yes that is understandable. I really wish I could teach him the "leave it" command, but he is so thick headed and not a puppy anymore, so I *fear* I won't be able to teach this old dog any new tricks.


No fear.  Confidence. You can gain that thru training.

A statement made earlier by someone is a real concern -- your dog has now been in a full fledged fight and will likely only be more difficult the next time around. More dangerous.

Leave It is terrific, but nearly impossible once all the action is super amped up -- nearly impossible except to the highly trained dog, anyway. Until you get to that point, I'd concentrate for now on control. Carry spray with you. Prevent escalation. A stick. Whatever. Just hollering at a dog to go away often gets the job done.

Don't trust your dog to differentiate between a little dog or a big dog, etc. No, it isn't your fault at all that you were charged by an offleash dog. But just think, the next time it could be a stronger, tougher dog than this one was, and could literally kill your dog if allowed that close of access.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

meldleistikow said:


> A dog does not know the difference between a mugger with a knife and a pit bull. To a dog, a threat is a threat. I believe that even a very well trained dog is not going to sit there and take a pit bull attacking it.
> 
> I am sure that her dog is dog aggressive, but she seems to have control over him. You can't control other people's dogs. I don't agree with the muzzle. If that pit bull decided to attack and her dog had a muzzle on, who knows what would have happened to her dog. The owner of the pit bull is in the wrong completely.


Yes you hit the nail on the head. I did not even see meldleistikow's post, but you are right. How is he supposed to know the difference? If the dog did not attack him and just stood there and he still attacked it, then yes he would be at fault. But like I said, a dog attacked him, do you want him to roll over all sprawled out and say, "Here you go, take the biggest bite you want!" or would you rather he DEFEND himself as a dog should?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I knew you would not like the mutt comment. I said that deliberately. I do not know you or your dogs, or why you said more than once you would have protected your other dogs, but he can take it. So, since you said he was a shepherd mix, I figured you did not value him as much as your other dogs. 

Thanks for qualifying that one is small and the other is old. BTW, picking up a small dog when there is a fight imminent is not necessarily a good thing either.

Your neighbors stunk when they let their dogs get to yours, no one is denying that. But your attitude on this is not helping. Letting your dog defend itself against another dog because you are just a girl, is kind of like saying that of course you stood on the gas instead of the brake, officer, can't you see my blond hair. With that mentality, maybe girls should not be allowed to own dogs over 40 pounds, or 20 pounds. Please do not use those kind of statements. If you want to own a powerful dog, then you need to have more power than the dog. Because you are the human, you can, no matter how old or how large or how feminine you are.

Police send the dog to preserve life. Yes the dogs can defend them if it is necessary and take a bullet. But they send the dog, the order the dog to attack, to preserve life. This is a non-fatal method of subduing a dangerous criminal. And yes, they are preserving the criminal's life. You can call off the dog, you can't call back a bullet. 

I wish there weren't so many hero-dog stories. My dog took on a bear so that I could get away. My dog took on the robbers with guns. Yes, these stories do happen, but far too often it is, my dog attacked the mailman, and we are facing eviction, or losing our home-owner's insurance, or being sued. My dog attacked the neighbor's dog and they want us to get rid of it. 

You cannot be real when you think your dog will not attack a small dog because of its size. Dog's brains do not work like that. They do not really look at size and power, they are more concerned with the level of dominance shown, and a lot of little dogs have more than GSDs. And even if they do initiate it with their stares or struts, the judge will find your dog dangerous because of his breed/size/etc. 

Your dog was not at fault on this occasion, but that does not mean he isn't dangerous, it just means that your neighbor's were the more negligent, and thankfully, they took that attitude on it. Regardless to who wins and who loses, a court case and a stain on your dog's record would not be a good thing. 

You need to be in control of your dog. If that means walking him muzzled, than that is what it means. But before I would do that, I would get some OFF (mailmen use it, it is a dog deterrent, and it can come with a belt clip.) You have a reactive dog, so be hyper-vigilent. First, don't walk where you know people are negligent. Next, know that dog is there before your dog does. Be proactive. Before that dog is close enough, stand up straight and command it to go home in your blood curdling voice. Practice it if you have to. Cars are good for practicing. Have the halt ready and blast it if it is necessary. If all of that does not stop the dog, then maybe it was unavoidable, then I would be taking the bite for the reasons I mentioned before.

And it is very true, that most bites to humans do happen when trying to break up a dog fight. If your dog bites the other guy when he is trying to pull his dog away, he can sue you. He may not win, but if you own a home, your insurance will probably just pay him rather than fight it. If that happens, they will dump you, and good luck getting another policy while you own the dog. They do not care why the dog bit, just that it bit. 

It is a liability.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Defend himself, of course! Until next time. When the next dog is bigger and badder. It will happen.
You need to control the situation, not stand there helplessly. People are giving wonderful advice here.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

KellySue said:


> Yes you hit the nail on the head. I did not even see meldleistikow's post, but you are right. How is he supposed to know the difference? If the dog did not attack him and just stood there and he still attacked it, then yes he would be at fault. But like I said, a dog attacked him, do you want him to roll over all sprawled out and say, "Here you go, take the biggest bite you want!" or would you rather he DEFEND himself as a dog should?


In all truth, many pits could make mincemeat out of many GSD's. At the very least, cause very severe injury. I shudder to think of a GSD and pit going at it full bore. Could sure be a very ugly, bloody mess. Who cares who is "in the right" at that point???

The issue isn't that your dog shouldn't defend himself. The issue is never letting it get this far if it is in any way in your control to not allow it.

What's right, what's proper, doesn't matter. Keeping your dog injury free is all that matters.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

meldleistikow said:


> I do agree with Jax08 about teaching him "leave it". The more obedience you do with him, the stronger your bond and the more controllable he will be and less of a liability.
> 
> If I were you, I would look at a trainer to help with dog aggression. If he will let a little dog come up to him without a problem, I don't think his problem is that bad. You said this was his first fight? Has he gone after dogs before? You might have already said it, but I missed it. Sorry.


Yes I would love to teach more obedience. He is a great dog but even the greatest dogs are always in need of obedience training. I could look up a trainer, I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania. But being a college student I don't know if I could afford it, but I can definitely do more on my own. Yes this was his first fight. He only goes after dogs that go after him first, except when they walk by my house and he is behind our fence in our back yard, then he barks until they are out of sight or I call him in.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think anyone thinks this is Spencer's fault, or yours. Loose, aggressive dogs are always a fear and your dog was leashed. But I think you need to look beyond today and prepare for future issues. You have publicly admitted having a dog aggressive dog. If next time, your dog kills a dog, you can get sued. 

There was one poster on here who was court ordered to euthanize their dog. The dog was in his own yard and the neighbors poodle came into the yard. The GSD chased the poodle to its own porch and killed the poodle. The GSD lost in court. Yes, he was in his own yard when the "prey" entered it. The owners of hte poodle did not have control over their dog...but the GSD is the one that died.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

KellySue, I am so sorry you experienced this. I have a very reactive dog too. I didn't read a lot of posts here, but NO WAY am I taking a bite for my dog. Why? My dog has thicker skin than I do plus a fur coat. If my dog gets bit, I have a chance to kill the other dog (or try, anyway). If I am bit, I could lose functionality, job, home, and I can't protect my dog. However, I also am pretty good at reading dog language and have been able to block off attacking dogs by calling their bluffs. Many dogs will flip their spit if they see a human rushing at them, bellowing murder and doom. Have to know what dog you can do that to and what dog you need to run/shoot. 

As has been mentioned, since you and your dog are regularly in danger, you should protect both of you with bear spray or a stout walking stick or whatever else you can get away with since you're under 21. A solid wood walking stick will knock the bejesus out of a dog. If the owner throws a fit, you tell them you were in fear of your safety and then call animal control to report a dangerous dog at large. 

Next, get your dog in obedience classes NOW. Whether you like it or not, you do have a liability on your hands. Group classes will teach you how to train your dog around distractions and they will teach your dog self-control around other dogs. You must take this seriously; if you address it now, you both will be all the better. If not, you risk an incident where your dog is the aggressor and is forced to be out down. 

Btw, the only dog too old to learn a new trick is a dead dog. Teach teach teach!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue - send me a PM on your location. I'm in NEPA also. Even if you went to a trainer every 3 weeks and used that time to work on what you learned then you are gaining.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

meldleistikow said:


> KellySue, I don't feel that you had a choice. You did the best you could. I also get very frustrated at people with "friendly" dogs who think that their dogs are special and should be allowed off leash in their yards.
> 
> I am with you on the "dogs are dogs". I believe that they were put on this earth to serve us, not the other way around.



They are suppose to serve us? Could you please explain further on how?


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

I am sorry if I am not responding to every single poster's comment, it is hard to keep up with it all!! But I am reading everything everyone says and absorbing the info.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> I believe that they were put on this earth to serve us, not the other way around.


I don't believe that any living creature was "put" on earth to serve another.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue said:


> I am sorry if I am not responding to every single poster's comment, it is hard to keep up with it all!! *But I am reading everything everyone says and absorbing the info*.


And that's what the smart ones do!


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

DianaM said:


> KellySue, I am so sorry you experienced this. I have a very reactive dog too. I didn't read a lot of posts here, but NO WAY am I taking a bite for my dog. Why? My dog has thicker skin than I do plus a fur coat. If my dog gets bit, I have a chance to kill the other dog (or try, anyway). If I am bit, I could lose functionality, job, home, and I can't protect my dog. However, I also am pretty good at reading dog language and have been able to block off attacking dogs by calling their bluffs. Many dogs will flip their spit if they see a human rushing at them, bellowing murder and doom. Have to know what dog you can do that to and what dog you need to run/shoot.
> 
> As has been mentioned, since you and your dog are regularly in danger, you should protect both of you with bear spray or a stout walking stick or whatever else you can get away with since you're under 21. A solid wood walking stick will knock the bejesus out of a dog. If the owner throws a fit, you tell them you were in fear of your safety and then call animal control to report a dangerous dog at large.
> 
> ...


Thank you! You read my mind and spoke my thoughts. I certainly would like to get him in some obedience classes. He is a great dog, but just a smidgen off from perfect.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Yes I would love to teach more obedience. He is a great dog but even the greatest dogs are always in need of obedience training. I could look up a trainer, I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania. But being a college student I *don't know if I could afford it*, but I can definitely do more on my own. Yes this was his first fight. He only goes after dogs that go after him first, except when they walk by my house and he is behind our fence in our back yard, then he barks until they are out of sight or I call him in.


Talk with your Dad to help with cost if possible. It would be his home and home owners ins that would be involved if something did happen. Split the cost with the guarantee you are going to do all the work needed for this.

I usually hate to say ask the parents, but in this case, it is that important you work with a trainer.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I don't believe that any living creature was "put" on earth to serve another.


:thumbup:


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I don't believe that any living creature was "put" on earth to serve another.


Hmmm I don't believe they were put here to serve us either, moreso I believe we as a species made them and bred them into a species with the sole purpose of helping and serving us. I believe they were originally put here to do what the wolves of today are doing.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Talk with your Dad to help with cost if possible. It would be his home and home owners ins that would be involved if something did happen. Split the cost with the guarantee you are going to do all the work needed for this.
> 
> I usually hate to say ask the parents, but in this case, it is that important you work with a trainer.



In a perfect world I could ask him and he would help pay, but he barely pays for the dogs' food let alone me trying to convince him that Spencer needs obedience training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs think I was put on earth to serve them:
breakfast, lunch, snacks, dinner. 

All of our dogs are tad off from perfect. They can all of them benefit from more classes. 

I might not go into the home-owner's insurance thing with Dad though, he might start reconsidering letting you have dogs, and right now your priority is your education. With your education, you will be able to provide for your dogs. And your dogs' classes. 

But I would ask your dad if he could help you pay for some classes with your dog, so you can work on some obedience with him. Dog classes can be terribly expensive, or relatively inexpensive depending where you go. For what you get, PetsMart classes are very expensive. But there are good private trainers, who offer classes for less than that with a lot better meat, and will be more reasonable about the tools they suggest or allow, like prong collars, etc. 

Around here, NE Ohio, we get 6 classes (6 weeks) for $85. 

Good luck. Keep working with your dog.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Very good advice from everybody. To the poster below me, I don't think asking my dad for any money will get me anywhere, but maybe my mom could help out as she is looking to get a puppy of her own (purebred GSD actually) in the future and I can offer to give her the advice I get from any trainer I find best suits me.

To lighten the mood, I figured I'd post a pic of the infamous dog of this thread:








There's good ole Spencer asking for his treat! 

And since this IS a GSD forum, I figured I'd post a pic of my lovely, lovely old man Sam:








10 years old and counting, but still the best dog I've ever had besides our old dog Winnie.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They look very attentive. Nice dogs. Mom then. Ask mom to help you pay for the classes, use your student loan money. Hold a yard sale. Sell some junk on e-bay, or craig's list.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

How does Spencer and Sam get along?


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

selzer said:


> They look very attentive. Nice dogs. Mom then. Ask mom to help you pay for the classes, use your student loan money. Hold a yard sale. Sell some junk on e-bay, or craig's list.


Thank you! And all very good ideas. I will certainly get something together.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Twyla said:


> How does Spencer and Sam get along?


Perfectly! All of the dogs do, actually. Sam seems to be the "alpha" if you will, as Spencer and my other dog Sophie are always kept in line by Sam.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Perfectly! All of the dogs do, actually. Sam seems to be the "alpha" if you will, as Spencer and my other dog Sophie are always kept in line by Sam.


Did Spencer come in as a pup, older rescue....?


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Did Spencer come in as a pup, older rescue....?


Pup/rescue.  We got him from the shelter when he was just 8 weeks old, and he will be 5 this fall.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Very nice looking dogs Where is a pic of Sophie? Sometimes humane societies offer reduced rate classes. I have a GSD club by me that does drop ins for $7.00, that would be something to look into after some basic obedience. I have seen classes at churches, schools, etc. Good Luck!!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Pup/rescue.  We got him from the shelter when he was just 8 weeks old, and he will be 5 this fall.


5 yr old? Definitely not to old to learn new tricks 

They are both gorgeous.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Very nice looking dogs Where is a pic of Sophie? Sometimes humane societies offer reduced rate classes. I have a GSD club by me that does drop ins for $7.00, that would be something to look into after some basic obedience. I have seen classes at churches, schools, etc. Good Luck!!


Thank you! Here she is in all her glory after getting her groomed a few months ago:








They gave us a green bandana for St. Paddy's Day! 


Hmm interesting! Who would have known all of those places could have classes! I will look into every option I find!


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

Twyla said:


> 5 yr old? Definitely not to old to learn new tricks
> 
> They are both gorgeous.


Haha I sure hope so!  Thank you!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Thank you! Here she is in all her glory after getting her groomed about a month ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is very pretty!! Is she a border collie?


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> She is very pretty!! Is she a border collie?


Thanks! She is a doll. Border collie/husky mix as per the lady from craigslist that we got her from!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Thanks! She is a doll. Border collie/husky mix as per the lady from craigslist that we got her from!


She is very much the kind of dog that I would get I like the looks of her...I really like border collies in general.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

While you are searching for a trainer, look at the videos on this YouTube channel

tab289 - pretty extensive list of training videos

Since there appears to be a problem with off leash dogs in your neighborhood, you may want to be creative for walks. Pop Spencer in the car and find the closest large school campus, weekends large office parks can give good exercise, early morning in some shopping centers to name a few.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

KellySue said:


> but Spencer is all muscle and I am only a 19 year old girl.


Please don't use this as an excuse. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'm a 21yo girl and only 120lbs dripping wet. My girl is usually in fantastic shape, mostly muscle, very little fat, and I can still control her. You can too; I guarantee you you're stronger than you think  Like others have said though, if you're not strong enough then carry something to make you stronger.

I don't think this is your boy's fault (btw he's quite a handsome guy). I don't even think this is 100% your fault. People should not have dogs off leash that they can't control. You cannot control what other people do, but you can control you. A for instance would be the example with the lab. If you know the lab runs at large often, and you know your dog isn't the best with strange dogs, then I wouldn't walk by there. Is that fair? Absolutely not. In a perfect world everyone would be responsible and you wouldn't have to plan your routine around other people's failings. However, people aren't, and I'm sure you'd rather have a safe and happy walk then have to deal with the stress of a dog fight. I have that problem when I come home for the summer. The route that I want to walk on (the route that is closest to me) has a pit bull that runs loose all the time that is very dog aggressive. I could chance it and walk Sasha on that path, and then be upset if a fight ensues, or I could just walk a different route. Granted, I have to drive into town rather than just walk on the road near my home, but it's worth it. I'm a college kid with very limited resources and I just don't have the money to pay the vet bills for a dog fight. I'd figure it out if I had to, but I'd rather not have to.

I'm not attacking you from a dog is a dog standpoint. I agree that dogs and humans are not the same. I, personally, would step in front of Sasha to prevent her from a bad situation the same way I grab a kid who's about to walk out into the street; it's simply instinctual. That being said if I was walking Sasha with my little 10yo cousin and it came down to protecting her or protecting Sasha, I'd say Sasha has a better chance and I'd protect the human. I understand though that stuff happens and sometimes you can't see it coming.

I think you really love your boy, and I think you sound like your heart is really in the right place. From one youngin' to another I didn't think I could afford training classes with Sasha either, but I'm so glad I spent the money to do it. It meant that I couldn't eat out pretty much at all, nor could I go see a movie, or go shopping, etc. but the benefits weren't just that we worked on the issues we needed to work on; I also saw a huge increase in our bond. Don't get me wrong, we were already very close, but the look I saw in her eyes during class, that look that said, "We're a team, Mom." That was priceless.

Keep learning, keep growing; we're all in this together. (I feel like that last part may have come from a TV show....Red Green Perhaps?)


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

meldleistikow said:


> I am with you on the "dogs are dogs". I believe that they were put on this earth to serve us, not the other way around.


*I am so offended and disgusted by this statement.* How arrogant for a human to think other living beings (who are helpless to choose otherwise) are here to serve them. 

Because humans are gods and all creatures are beneath them... (SARCASM)


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> Please don't use this as an excuse. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'm a 21yo girl and only 120lbs dripping wet. My girl is usually in fantastic shape, mostly muscle, very little fat, and I can still control her. You can too; I guarantee you you're stronger than you think  Like others have said though, if you're not strong enough then carry something to make you stronger.
> 
> I don't think this is your boy's fault (btw he's quite a handsome guy). I don't even think this is 100% your fault. People should not have dogs off leash that they can't control. You cannot control what other people do, but you can control you. A for instance would be the example with the lab. If you know the lab runs at large often, and you know your dog isn't the best with strange dogs, then I wouldn't walk by there. Is that fair? Absolutely not. In a perfect world everyone would be responsible and you wouldn't have to plan your routine around other people's failings. However, people aren't, and I'm sure you'd rather have a safe and happy walk then have to deal with the stress of a dog fight. I have that problem when I come home for the summer. The route that I want to walk on (the route that is closest to me) has a pit bull that runs loose all the time that is very dog aggressive. I could chance it and walk Sasha on that path, and then be upset if a fight ensues, or I could just walk a different route. Granted, I have to drive into town rather than just walk on the road near my home, but it's worth it. I'm a college kid with very limited resources and I just don't have the money to pay the vet bills for a dog fight. I'd figure it out if I had to, but I'd rather not have to.
> 
> ...



It is not an excuse, just a fact. I like to think I am strong for my age/gender but I know I stand no chance against a powerful dog (meaning the pit - not Spencer). I can control him, but I cannot control another dog charging us.  I know what you are saying about avoiding the situation of where that lab is always loose, and many would agree with you, I do too to an extent, and if that wasn't the path I always walk my dogs on I would avoid it like it was the plague. However, I am not the type of person to give up doing something I enjoy just because some people are morons.That's just me though! I am a stubborn girl.  Plus this path is the only path to my mailbox so it is hard to avoid this area. I have walked past the same house, same dog loose with Sophie and had not one problem at all because Sophie is not dog aggressive. (Though the lab thought it was a good idea to put his nose so far up her butt that Sophie's head turned like the exorcist :laugh:, and also resulted in some slight whining/teeth showing on her part.) I do love my boy, he is great, and my dad loves how protective he is (he is very old school - especially when it comes to dogs. ) as he leaves my sister and I home with them all day, every day and wanted a dog that would protect. I also want a dog that protects, but not at the price of him being dog aggressive. However I did not control his training when he was a pup since I was quite young, so this is where he ended up. But whose to say it needs to stay that way?? This is why I am going to try my best to invest in a good trainer! One day I would LOVE to get Spencer into dock diving. He has SO much energy and absolutely LOVES to swim/jump in the water and fetch his sticks from as far as I can throw them and as far as he can jump!


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> *I am so offended and disgusted by this statement.* How arrogant for a human to think other living beings (who are helpless to choose otherwise) are here to serve them.
> 
> Because humans are gods and all creatures are beneath them... (SARCASM)


See I agree with the statement that dog's are created to serve man, but I believe humans are also supposed to work hard to be worthy of the service. Animal serves man, and man takes care of animal to the best of his ability; it is a win win for all. Serving man doesn't have to be negative. Humans are superior to animals, and so they live under our laws, rules, and for our needs, and in exchange we are to be good stewards of the gifts we have been given.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> She is very much the kind of dog that I would get I like the looks of her...I really like border collies in general.


Yes I think she is quite the cutie! I love how she has husky in her because it makes her tail curl in the cutest way!  /end girlish rant.

But we got her because our old dog Winnie was a border collie/aussie mix and man was she AMAZING! Such a smart breed.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

KellySue said:


> It is not an excuse, just a fact. I like to think I am strong for my age/gender but I know I stand no chance against a powerful dog (meaning the pit - not Spencer). I can control him, but I cannot control another dog charging us.  I know what you are saying about avoiding the situation of where that lab is always loose, and many would agree with you, I do too to an extent, and if that wasn't the path I always walk my dogs on I would avoid it like it was the plague. However, I am not the type of person to give up doing something I enjoy just because some people are morons.That's just me though! I am a stubborn girl.  Plus this path is the only path to my mailbox so it is hard to avoid this area. I have walked past the same house, same dog loose with Sophie and had not one problem at all because Sophie is not dog aggressive. (Though the lab thought it was a good idea to put his nose so far up her butt that Sophie's head turned like the exorcist :laugh:, and also resulted in some slight whining/teeth showing on her part.) I do love my boy, he is great, and my dad loves how protective he is (he is very old school - especially when it comes to dogs. ) as he leaves my sister and I home with them all day, every day and wanted a dog that would protect. I also want a dog that protects, but not at the price of him being dog aggressive. However I did not control his training when he was a pup since I was quite young, so this is where he ended up. But whose to say it needs to stay that way?? This is why I am going to try my best to invest in a good trainer! One day I would LOVE to get Spencer into dock diving. He has SO much energy and absolutely LOVES to swim/jump in the water and fetch his sticks from as far as I can throw them and as far as he can jump!


Hey, you're preachin' to the choir when it comes to stubborn girls lol. The point isn't that you're giving up something you love because others are morons, the point is your altering your route in a way that can protect the one you love. Even one incident is enough to consider changing route. Like I said before, from one young girl to another, expensive vet bills aren't really something we can afford. Plus, you'd feel pretty bad if something happened to your boy, and you could have prevented it by swallowing your pride a little. I agree it sucks when others interrupt our routine, but such is life. 

Dock diving looks like a ton of fun! Sasha will not fetch to save her soul; she just looks at me like, "Well...you have to learn...you threw it, now if you want it I suggest you go get it." lol So it would never work with us, but it does seem like a great way to use a very fun activity to bond with your dog.


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## KellySue (Jun 6, 2012)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> Hey, you're preachin' to the choir when it comes to stubborn girls lol. The point isn't that you're giving up something you love because others are morons, the point is your altering your route in a way that can protect the one you love. Even one incident is enough to consider changing route. Like I said before, from one young girl to another, expensive vet bills aren't really something we can afford. Plus, you'd feel pretty bad if something happened to your boy, and you could have prevented it by swallowing your pride a little. I agree it sucks when others interrupt our routine, but such is life.
> 
> Dock diving looks like a ton of fun! Sasha will not fetch to save her soul; she just looks at me like, "Well...you have to learn...you threw it, now if you want it I suggest you go get it." lol So it would never work with us, but it does seem like a great way to use a very fun activity to bond with your dog.


This is true! Today I tried to take a route that didn't have any loose dogs, and then the pitbull showed up! Figures. I am terrible at swallowing my pride, but I know when it is time to do so. I usually just like to bring Spencer to the lake in my community and let him swim until his heart's content or another dog shows up, and I do this by walking past the lab's house so he gets even more exercise by walking. Unfortunately this is the only route so I suppose I will have to drive him.  People suck!!

LOL that is so funny about your Sasha! My GSD Sam is the same exact way. He will bound his big galoot butt over to the stick I throw and stop, look at me, look at the stick, and walk away to lay down. OR he will come back to me without the stick and just look at me with this dumbfounded expression as if he has no idea what he's supposed to be doing! Funny thing is that Sophie doesn't fetch either. She doesn't even like toys at all. The only thing she will chew is the garbage.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> See I agree with the statement that dog's are created to serve man, but I believe humans are also supposed to work hard to be worthy of the service. Animal serves man, and man takes care of animal to the best of his ability; it is a win win for all. Serving man doesn't have to be negative. Humans are superior to animals, and so they live under our laws, rules, and for our needs, and in exchange we are to be good stewards of the gifts we have been given.


:thumbup:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I am going to pick on a line here: "but Spencer is all muscle, and I am only a 19 year old girl."
> 
> Uhg!
> 
> ...


 
I would love to see a small woman or man (or large untrained ones for that matter) try to stop a serious fight between a large pit bull and a large and very determined GSD. Esp. if one of the dogs is off leash.

Won't happen without a serious weapon and the knowledge (AND WILL) to use it. I.E. Club, spray, gun?, tennis racket (Cesar!)

As a second thought - how many of you readers can control your dogs well enough to control them off lead when a dog fight is iminent?

I know that my dog would not be likely to behave correctly (depends on how close they are to fighting). 

Would any of you think your dog would SIT or STAY in the face of an aggressive dog running up on them?

Be serious!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Well I never thought this would happen - but I agree with Codmaster.

I know Jake, or our last dog Sam, were so reactive there would have been no chance to get between them, or put them in a sit or a down. 

And also, no chance to stand and put a leg or even an arm out and tell the other dog to 'GO HOME' - we'd have been pulled straight on to the ground - either in their attempt to get at the other dog or to get away from it. 

All we'd have been able to do, and have done, is hold on tight and keep turning around in the hope that the other dog would give up - which they always have luckily - up to yet.

Even Turid Rugrass advises letting go of the leash if necessary. 
_________
Sue


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> Well I never thought this would happen - but I agree with Codmaster.


:


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Woolf is FA/DA. With so many in my neighborhood that simply insists on letting their dog loose, whether on purpose or 'it just got loose', I've made the decision to not expose him to that and instead am creative in where he is walked. Places like I suggested to the OP in a previous post. You bet I have a right to walk my dog in my neighborhood, but my responsibility to and for Woolf is more important. Each confrontation prevented puts us closer to a training goal.

If, after taking those steps we still come across a loose dog (knock on wood so far we haven't) I carry spray. While I haven't experienced it, I can see where the STOP and GO HOME would work for some wiggly butt coming up to play but for a dog in attack charge mode I have a hard time seeing it work.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Yes Twyla I agree that the best thing to do is avoid these situations if at all possible.

Kelly Sue 

It's wise to keep your dog indoors or in the yard if possible for a least a few days, as the fighting would have stressed him out and will make he react even worse towards other dogs. Allow him to de-stress.
________
Sue


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

_*Humans are superior to animals, and so they live under our laws, rules, and for our needs, and in exchange we are to be good stewards of the gifts we have been given. *_

Just a few of the headlines from CNN today:

_"Dismembered mans kin talk to police"_
_"Forgotten faces: WWII sex slaves"_
_"Activists: 78 slain in Syrian village"_
_"Serial bomber terrorizing Phoenix"_

I don't see how anyone can read the news and think we are superior to other animals.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You mentioned in one of your posts that you should get a break stick. Please think long and hard about this. Picture yourself actually using it. I'm not trying to insult you, but I don't think you're quite ready for this.

I've had 2 encounters where it would have been useful, and both times were very scary. My GSD stood perfectly still while the other dog was clamped on, in both cases. One was a friend's Bull Terrier and those two dogs were the best of friends, so I don't know what provoked it...my friend was freaking out and ended up shoving his finger up his dog's butt to remove him. In the other instance, some tough-looking kids had their pitbull on a chain and it charged my dog, clamping onto his lip. The kids didn't want to come deal with their dog, so I had to pry the dog's mouth open to get him off. 

If this sounds like fun, then keep walking your dogs around the pitbulls. If it sounds like something you'd rather avoid, then avoid going near them. Even with my experience, this is what I'd choose - for my dog's sake.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LaneyB said:


> I don't see how anyone can read the news and think we are superior to other animals.


It is the capacity for thinking and reasoning. Just because some abuse it doesn't mean it's not so. Cruel things happen all over. Animals (non-human) kill each other all the time. 
Our dogs cannot build a house for _us_, or go to work so _we_ can be fed. We feed _them_, and care for _them_, not the other way around. 
In turn they are excellent companions we need to take proper care of, no matter what job they do for us, if any.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Living beings were NOT PLACED on this earth to SERVE other living beings. I don't care what any book says...the cells, while dividing, did not hold a meeting and say "you shall be called dog and you shall serve the cells called man"

In the evolution of man/dog relationship, you will find that there was a cooperative relationship in that dog helped hunt and man fed dog. It was not one serving the other.

How did this thread even go down this path? ugh...


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I just don't care for the phrasing "superior to" when talking about living things. I prefer "responsible for" instead.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LaneyB said:


> I just don't care for the phrasing "superior to" when talking about living things. I prefer "responsible for" instead.


That works for me. 
We are to be good stewards of things that cannot fend for themselves and so thus were placed in our care.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LaneyB said:


> I just don't care for the phrasing "superior to" when talking about living things. I prefer "responsible for" instead.


Me either. I am responsible for my horse, my cat, my dog, my children. I don't have a "right" to them and they aren't here to "serve" me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Me either. I am responsible for my horse, my cat, my dog, my children. I don't have a "right" to them and they aren't here to "serve" me.


 
Wow, many folks on this thread are getting so philisophical (almost religious!).

But we must consider this - although our dogs are living beings, they are "Property" in the eyes of the law of the land.

And most religions, I believe, consider that animals *were* put here to serve mankind.

And think about this, as much as we all love our dogs(And I do), if you had to choose to save your dog or your son/daughter/wife/husband - which would YOU choose?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Glad I'm not religious or part of any religion then.

Who we love enough to save over another isn't relevant. Laws of the land doesn't make something right. The Laws of the Land used to allow slavery of black people. Laws of the land are based on a culture's ideology. That does not mean one living being was "put on this earth to serve" another. You can argue with my opinion if you want but it won't change it. It is MY opinion. You go get your own.


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## 65Champagne (Nov 15, 2011)

KellySue said:


> Well then that is where we differ. I am not willing to take a dog bite when I know my dog can handle it. As I said if it were my other two dogs who are much different than Spencer than yes I would try to take the brunt of the situation, but again as I said a dog is a dog. We got these dogs to protect our family, and he did what he was supposed to.
> 
> And besides, you are not understanding what I am saying. There was no stopping this dog, and if you were there you would have seen that. Even if I wanted to put myself in front of Spencer there was no time. It happened in a split second. Same goes for if I was carrying mace. I wouldn't have even had time to get it out of my pocket let alone spray it. You are blaming me for someone else's loose dog attacking my leashed dog. I fail to see how this is anybody else's fault except the owner of the loose dog.


KellySue, 
I believe others do understand what you are saying, and you are holding on to a belief that doesn't stand up. You "own" a dog. That means your dog only gets to experience what you decide it gets to experience. I choose not to let my dog experience the full force of a pit bull, or a yorkie for that matter. (and at this point I am sure you think I am an arrogant a**)

By stepping in front of your dog, you MIGHT have confused the pit just long enough to let the owner catch up, the pit may have been fearful of you and stopped, or you might have taken the force yourself I suppose. I hear what you are saying about other owners, and I think we would all agree, you should be able to walk your dog in your own neighborhood, but it is clear that you can't, so walk elsewhere, train, solve neighborhood issues first, without your dog by your side. 

What has not been said is that now you likely have a compound problem that can be difficult to unwind. Do accidents happen, yes, but if I know an off leash dog is anywhere near my off leash dog, I put myself between them unless I know the dogs, their owner, their training and their reliability. I assume every other dog is an out of control nightmare unless proven otherwise. If I am walking in our neighborhood, and I was surprised by a loose dog, I take the bite. My decision, my consequence. I have no earthly idea what my dogs can "take", and I hope I never will. I would bet either of mine would lose to a pit.

The hardest part of all of this is knowing what you are going to do before it happens, so that when it does the response from you is automatic. Reading threads like this has made me think through situations I would have never considered. And just for the record, I have made mistakes too, and I spent 11 years (half of your lifetime) trying to un-train my stupidity, with limited success. Owning a dog is a choice, owning the responsibility is not.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I cannot tell a lie ... I did* NOT* read every post, I skimmed thru them and I may be repeating something that's already been said:

I hope you reported both incidents to Animal Control so hopefully this won't happen again!!! If you haven't, IMHO you should.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If dogs were not found to be useful to humans, they would still be running around in feral little groups, like coyotes or wolves. Domestic animals are domesticated for the use humans can put them to. 

Horses are driven or ridden. Cows are milked. Chickens lay eggs that we eat as well as eating the chicken. Elephants and Oxen are used for draft. Because they can be domesticated, because we can find uses for their talents, they have survived and have evolved into the dogs that they currently are.

If anyone keeps an animal, they should treat the animal with respect and provide for it properly. But they do serve us. And if they did not, they would not share our homes and food. Even companion animals provide a service to humans. 

I own my dogs. I am not their guardian. Sorry. If this was not an unequal relationship, then how could we control whether or not they roam? How can we control whether or not they are bred? How could we determine for them what veterinary procedures are appropriate?

I like my dogs and love my dogs, I feed and care for them, I respect them. My dogs respect me, they listen to me, and maybe they like/love me after their fashion. If they did not care for me, they can not trot on down the road and find another family that suits them better. 

We do not consider pets servants, but if they did not have any utilitarian purposes, they probably would have never been refined to the extent that they have been, and we would not own dogs.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Glad I'm not religious or part of any religion then.
> *Why does that not surprise me?*
> 
> *Who we love enough to save over another isn't relevant. Yes, it is very relevant as it kind of does put our animals in their right place! At least for most people, anywaySo you would choose your dog over your human relative, then? Or would you? Don't want to answer, heh!*
> ...


 
HAHAHA! 


Do you eat ANY meat, fish or fowl? How about plants (they after all are living as well), aren't they?

Wouldn't that mean that those "other living beings" were put here to "SERVE" us?


At least I think that if we are eating another one time living being, then that being is serving us, don't you agree?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Every thread on here turns into an argument at some point. Don't worry about it.
> .


Why? I'm new here, too, and I've skipped answering on some threads because I didn't want to get into an argument with anyone. KellySue is new, she's young, she needs our help. Some of the replies to her are very rude. Can't we disagree without saying rude things?

On topic, I will avoid off leash dogs if I can, even if it means changing my route to stay away from them. I let people know it's not OK. Dogs talk their own language, and unless you speak it yourself, you don't know how a strange dog off leash is going to react. One of my dogs is very reactive, so I don't put him in situations where he might do something I don't want him to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Codmaster...you'll have to play with somebody else. I have had a long, hard, emotionally draining day. What I eat, what my religious beliefs are and what country I choose to live in aren't any of your business and you don't seem capable of having a conversation without being nasty. I'll just continue to live in this country that my ancestors helped settle...thank you very much.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why? I'm new here, too, and I've skipped answering on some threads because I didn't want to get into an argument with anyone. KellySue is new, she's young, she needs our help. Some of the replies to her are very rude. Can't we disagree without saying rude things?
> .


Excuse me...where was I rude to her?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why? I'm new here, too, and I've skipped answering on some threads because I didn't want to get into an argument with anyone. KellySue is new, she's young, she needs our help. Some of the replies to her are very rude. Can't we disagree without saying rude things?


There is a lot of different personalities involved. What may appear to be rude in text, if heard spoken, would simply be a very direct answer. The common connection is a passion for our dogs.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

codmaster said:


> HAHAHA!
> 
> 
> Do you eat ANY meat, fish or fowl? How about plants (they after all are living as well), aren't they?
> ...


Not any more than hikers were put on the earth to serve hungry grizzly bears.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Living beings were NOT PLACED on this earth to SERVE other living beings. I don't care what any book says...the cells, while dividing, did not hold a meeting and say "you shall be called dog and you shall serve the cells called man"
> 
> In the evolution of man/dog relationship, you will find that there was a cooperative relationship in that dog helped hunt and man fed dog. It was not one serving the other.
> 
> *How did this thread even go down this path? ugh...*


For once I had nothing to do with it either. I'm slacking!



codmaster said:


> Wow, many folks on this thread are getting so philisophical (almost religious!).
> 
> But we must consider this - although our dogs are living beings, they are "Property" in the eyes of the law of the land.
> 
> ...



To the bold, what do you consider *most* religions. Other than the Abrahamic religions I haven't came across any that say they were put here to serve us. Have any examples? (besides Abrahamic faiths that believe in a book)

To the last part. Would you save your husband/wife over your kids? Would you save the baker over the butcher or the milk man over, would you save a horse over a cow, or sheep over a pig.....? That is something that could go on forever and ever and is pointless in the conversation as to if animals are "servant" or not. (and no, I do not believe they are, but my thoughts go much deeper than that)



Syaoransbear said:


> Not any more than hikers were put on the earth to serve hungry grizzly bears.



:wild::rofl:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KellySue - Sent the email out asking about trainers in your area. Haven't heard back yet. Will PM as soon as I do.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

OP: sometimes, things just happen that we have no control over. We can prepare all we want to but we can't prepare for everything. Some things we can't prepare for until there is a reason to prepare for it. I went for a walk with my dog once, and my children. We got attacked by a dog, out of no were. The dog came from around the corner of a house we were passing. This wasn't some huge yard, the house itself was only about 50yards from the road. I didn't know there was a dog there, never seen it before. Needless to say, I dropped the leash and let the dogs go at it while I took care of my kids first then went to try and get the other dog off my dog. 

Those two kids are older now, in their teens and if the same thing happened now, I wouldn't have to do that because the situation is different now and I don't have to tend to them. Telling them to just stay back is enough. (Just thought I'd pop that in before anyone wants to pipe up with the "what would you choose" straw man argument)

Anyways, now that it has happened, now is the time when you step back and assess the situation to learn how to better the outcome in the future. It sounds like you are taking everything in though and I think you'll do just fine.

Beautiful pups btw!


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm not as young as the OP - kind of over twice her age, but I am 5'2" and weigh around 110 - Raina weighs 90. I walk where I want and I will protect my dog. I know Raina could protect me if she had to if I were hurt or something but I feel it is my job to protect her first. I would put myself between another dog and her - first to protect her and secondly to protect the other dog. Just because another dog owner is stupid enough to let their dog run loose doesn't mean the dog should have to pay for it and, Raina, who really doesn't start things (mostly) will certainly finish it. Lastly, we have owned a pit bull who would attack any other dog except the one he lived with and I had to learn to use a breaking stick. That being said, it is nearly impossible for one person to break up a dog fight where both dogs want to fight so I understand what you meant by being full on. You can get one off but who is going to control the other dog. Training your dog to look to you for instruction will help but avoiding those other dogs will help most. I don't carry my gun while walking because I don't expect to have to kill anything. Carry some spray, a breaking stick, or even a walking stick. None of those are lethal and all will help. Choices in order -protect my daughter first, my dog second, and my husband - well he can pretty much take care of himself.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Break sticks are only to be used on pit bull terriers, because it's tough to get their mouths open. And you should only pry one's mouth open if there's zero chance it will re-attach. 
In other words...if you're by yourself, it's useless to try to use it.

I'd carry a large stick if it was me, or a T-ball bat or something like that. 

You can hit the other dog's muzzle, it's forelegs, or the spine behind the ribcage, to injure and disable it. Those are the only places a dog's really going to be injured if you make a connection. The rest, it might feel pain or whatever, but to truly disable it there's only those 3 spots you can do enough damage to make it stop attacking.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Excuse me...where was I rude to her?


Jax, you weren't rude at all. I was commenting about your statement that every discussion here turns into an argument. I was asking a generic, "Why?" based on what you said, not accusing you of anything, and then gave an example. In general, the messages here have been helpful for KellySue, but a few shocked me. I've noticed that people are very sensitive about some issues, especially training and behavior. We all come from our own experiences. I've owned more GSDs than some of the people I've seen posting based on what I've seen them say. I've done a lot of training and had experience with all kinds of behavior issues because I have fostered and taken in rescues, who often come with baggage. But a comment I made in one thread was shut down by someone who treated me like I was stupid, so I just ignored the rest of the thread. I'm not going to interact with someone who talks like that. That's all.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Twyla said:


> There is a lot of different personalities involved. What may appear to be rude in text, if heard spoken, would simply be a very direct answer. The common connection is a passion for our dogs.


 Thank you for the explanation. I also noticed that there are very strong opinions about some subjects. I'm glad I found this site, still not sure if I can handle the very strong objections, especially since I'm just as passionate about my dogs and the time I've spent learning what works with mine, especially in terms of training, behavior and health.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Just think of it as dealing with a very very hard, unsocialized GSD 

People come here to help their dogs, and it shouldn't hurt their feelings if something written is harsh. Even if it's a direct attack on your own opinion, it's only someone else's opinion - doesn't mean they're right!!!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Thank you for the explanation. I also noticed that there are very strong opinions about some subjects. I'm glad I found this site, still not sure if I can handle the very strong objections, especially since I'm just as passionate about my dogs and the time I've spent learning what works with mine, especially in terms of training, behavior and health.


LOL oh yeah there are some strong opinions. I have found, even when the delivery of the info isn't the most tactful, I am still learning so much. Some of what I've learned has helped change some methods I use with Woolf, other times, it confirms what I am doing with him is the right course to take.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Living beings were NOT PLACED on this earth to SERVE other living beings. I don't care what any book says...the cells, while dividing, did not hold a meeting and say "you shall be called dog and you shall serve the cells called man"
> 
> In the evolution of man/dog relationship, you will find that there was a cooperative relationship in that dog helped hunt and man fed dog. It was not one serving the other.
> 
> How did this thread even go down this path? ugh...



:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jax, you weren't rude at all. I was commenting about your statement that every discussion here turns into an argument. I was asking a generic, "Why?" based on what you said, not accusing you of anything, and then gave an example..


oh thank you! I was having a really rough night last night and not sure how to take your post.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm sorry, I hope you are having a better day today. I'm going to try to ignore comments that seem harsh to me and focus on the good advice shared here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm sorry, I hope you are having a better day today. I'm going to try to ignore comments that seem harsh to me and focus on the good advice shared here.


Good plan.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I'm new to the party (or more like this thread) and I've only read the first few pages... but from what I can tell, you're getting chewed out for how you're wording it... I guess that goes to give us an insight to your thinking and beliefs on 'dogs' and that's what's putting people on edge. 

You came to a forum full of crazy GSD lovers (myself included) so when you say you are ok letting your dog 'defend' itself that's a bit off putting. No dog should 'have to defend itself' that's what we are there for... now, if the situation arises that there's no way you can possibly help your dog - then that's one thing... but the way you stated it - you didn't even try. In fact, you just stood there and let it happen. Also, what made my stomach turn was the fact this guy KICKED your dog in the HEAD because his dog was attacking yours... I would literally go postal on ANYONE who dared touch my dog. Yes, his dog was the one being injured, but maybe that should teach him to take better precautions against letting his dog run at other dogs! 

So, not only did you fail your dog in that you just stood by while it was getting attacked, you also failed him by standing by as a neighbor kicks him in the head.

I feel pretty bad for your dog. If it were me and my dog - first I would keep my dog close and yell to the charging dog. I would make every effort to kick the oncoming dog before it got to mine. If this dog is being dog aggressive, chances are he's not going to go for you, and ****, if he did then I could see letting your dog step in... but you never even tried to take that step in defending your pet. 

I'd recommend mace or citronella spray to carry with you... if you truly think you're incapable of defending your dog, make up for your weaknesses with a tool that would give you an advantage. It only takes seconds to spray a charging dog. Plus, citronella spray could possibly break up a fight should one occur so that no one has to get kicked!

I'm 28, 5'5" and only weigh 120lbs... You better believe I would defend my 81lb muscular GSD from anything and everything! Only if I become incapable of helping him would I ever expect him to help me... and deciding 'it's too much to deal with' is not a good enough excuse to allow a fight to happen. 

I've also been charged by aggressive dogs while out with my dogs. I keep my dogs away and will spin to stay face to face with the attacker (while handling a dog that very well may want to rip into the other dog) and kick and yell at the stranger dog at the same time.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I'm going to try to ignore comments that seem harsh to me and focus on the good advice shared here.


Kind of interesting. 
Glad everyone doesn't take that tack since some of the best advice often "seems harsh", at least to people who don't want to hear it.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

e.rigby said:


> I'm new to the party (or more like this thread) and I've only read the first few pages...



It might be wise, to at the very least, read ALL of the OPs posts in the thread before you pass judgement. Because more details tend to come out. You act as though they encouraged it to happen and they just let the dogs fight it out. If you would have, read further one, you would see that its one of those things that happened really fast and there wasn't much time for a reaction.

You would also have seen that the OP is absorbing everything and has stated they will be better prepared for next time if it happens.

But I guess its more fun to write a thread about how you feel sorry for the dog and the owner is a failure. I'm sure you're the perfect owner.  Hopefully you are never blind sided by getting attacked by a dog..not all dogs are so nice as to come at you from where you can see them before they get to you.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSDolch said:


> It might be wise, to at the very least, read ALL of the OPs posts in the thread before you pass judgement.....


Haha! Who does that? It takes too long. Just jump in the party.  (Hope this is recognized as sarcasm... I wish people would read everything before posting, but so often don't/won't.)


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

So what happened on the next walk you mentioned where you met the pitbull again?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

KellySue said:


> It is not an excuse, just a fact. I like to think I am strong for my age/gender .....
> 
> I know what you are saying about avoiding the situation of where that lab is always loose, and many would agree with you, I do too to an extent, and if that wasn't the path I always walk my dogs on I would avoid it like it was the plague. However, I am not the type of person to give up doing something I enjoy just because some people are morons.That's just me though! I am a stubborn girl.



I bet you are stronger than you realize, and could have stepped in between the dogs (although, since you were unarmed, this might have not ended well). But you did not try, at least from what I gathered in your description. Seriously, the pepper spray WORKS. Both my husband and I have defended my male fear reactive GSD from numerous attacks by off leash dogs. We live in the country, where many people feel they don't need to contain their pets. After the first couple of incidents, we started carrying pepper spray at all times. They are small canisters and can easily fit in your hand so you can hold it while you walk (or jog) with your dog. Many of them come with a key ring, so you could fashion a bracelet for it and let it dangle at your wrist if you need both hands.

I understand your stubbornness, but at some point you need to realize the futility of your situation and take the steps needed to avoid these kinds of conflicts. Either begin reporting your neighbors for these incidents, or avoid walking in those areas. Just being stubborn and determined to exercise your right to go anywhere at any time is not going to change anything for the better. Yes, it's not fair, and yes it sucks, but your dog's safety (and your own) is more important than exercising your rights. I no longer walk my dogs in certain places because it's not safe. The same way I do not walk them in the woods during hunting season. Yes, I have the same right to be in the woods as the hunters do, but it would be incredibly foolish to do so.

It was mentioned once, but it bears repeating. Your dog is likely still infused with the stress hormones that flooded his system when the first attack occurred (incidentally, this probably also exacerbated his second reaction during your walk). Expect him to be more reactive for up to two weeks following the attack. I have seen this happen in my own dog, so this is not something to be taken lightly. Do take measures to avoid another incident like this, particularly during this time frame.

Finally I will mention as others have, that size is certainly a factor in how you can control your dog, but being small does not mean you are weak. Lots of people have thrown out numbers so I will too. I'm 5'6" and 105 pounds. Niko is three years old and 85 lbs of solid muscle (he runs up to ten miles a day). I have been able to step in front of him when he has been attacked by an off leash dog. I have also been knocked on my behind :laugh: . There is an art to it. It helps me to visualize my movements in my head beforehand. Keep your dog at heel on your left (or right, whichever is your preference). Don't let him have more than a foot or two of leash so he will be close to your side. Be ready to sweep your left leg across the front of his chest, keep him behind you with your left hand and have the spray safety off and ready in your right hand. Know to sweep the stream of spray across the eyes of the oncoming dog.

I hope you don't think I am being at all critical of you in this post, I am not trying to be. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I could write an epic trilogy cataloging all the mistakes I have made with my dogs. You learned a great deal from this experience, and I hope that in the future you have a better idea of how to avoid these situations, and if needed, how to deal with them if left no choice.


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