# Looking for Options/Opinions



## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I feel like I have hit a wall with Cuervo's training, in a previous thread I had mentioned going to an e-collar (which is on the way) but I want to hear from others who have been in my shoes. 

I'm relatively new to the sport, been active for about 3 years. When I got Cuervo, I got a little more dog than I bargined for but we compliment each other well. He's been described as a high drive, hard dog. I know there's some debate about what makes a dog hard but I had it explained to me that even the hardest corrections don't shut him down but rather make him stronger. 

So here's my problem, I belong to a reward based club and it's just not working for us, he has next to zero food drive and working for a tug/ball is almost too much so we've switched to making him work for me which has cleared him up a lot. In our BH he was pushing me for a reward almost the whole time and the longer we went the more he built until control was almost borderline, so we completely revamped our training with the help of two experienced trainers. His foundation is solid, we have a great relationship BUT he still thinks it's okay to listen only when he wants so enter compulsion. It's working for us, everything has become black and white there is no more struggle in obedience or protection. I enjoy training again however some club members have expressed concern with the old school route our training is going and have mentioned that it makes them uncomfortable, he's a vocal dog so a good correction sounds like I'm murdering him. 

Sorry for the novel but I'm open to suggestions on what might work for us.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

how about a different club where their training is more balanced? how do they show their dogs consequences without some kind of correction?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I have options to train with another club, in the summer I'll be training with them a couple of times a month...it's more just a couple people who aren't comfortable. They have lower drive, very handler sensitive dogs who tend to shut down with correction and they really don't have consequences, it's just a different relationship than what I expect from my dog. 

I'm probably reading too much into it and should just work my dog the way he needs to be worked. I tend to be a people pleaser so in a childish way it hurts my feelings when people feel the need to go to their car when I'm training. I know I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not strong enough to actually hurt him and he hasn't shown any signs that this work isn't right for him but reactions like that make me second guess myself.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'd have to see some video of whats going on, if unable to see in person.

I don't always find that training a dog to do something for no reward and "just because they have to" yields the most reliable results or desirable attitude in the dog. In most cases, at some point the dog becomes too frustrated by the lack of real motivation other than "because I don't want to get my ass kicked." You say he has great ball drive..why not just keep the reward hidden on your body (tucked in the back of your pants, inside your shirt sleeve, etc) and ask for the behavior that you want? If he's pushing you (either physically, like forging, or just generally bouncing around), he's incorrect in the behavior and clearly doesn't understand whats being asked. I would take a few steps back and ask for proper focus and positon with an out of sight reward, and pay him for the correct behavior quickly, building upon that. Once you get to the point of him exhibiting the proper behavior consistently, THEN I would add corrections for direct disobedience. But I think that a dog who is "pushing" for a reward when out of position or control is not clear in my expectations, and I don't consider corrections for a dog who isn't clear on what is being asked very fair. 

But if you are getting the results that you want with the training that you're doing, then why change it?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Sorry I wasn't clear, I always have a reward on me, just not in sight, and he does get rewarded with it just not as often as I had been because the ball was making him "spun" for lack of better words. 

I'll have to take some video because I don't think I'm explaining it right.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

So what exactly are you using compulsion for? Where are you losing control of the dog in training?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

When he chooses to blow me off, last time I trained with his breeder he brought it up that he was making the decision when he wanted to work or not.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do you feel you are being unfair to your dog? If not then ignore those people. Are you getting the results, the picture you want? Then ignore those people. Trust in the trainer you are working with and ignore those people.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Do you feel you are being unfair to your dog? If not then ignore those people. Are you getting the results, the picture you want? Then ignore those people. Trust in the trainer you are working with and ignore those people.


I don't feel that I'm being unfair to him at all, he's happy and wanting to continue to work. Training is less of a struggle, a lot of it was my problem I let him get away with far too much for far too long, we are finally working together rather than against each other. I trust my trainers, they have the experience and knowledge that I don't. I think that's what I need to do.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I'm probably reading too much into it and should just work my dog the way he needs to be worked. I tend to be a people pleaser so in a childish way it hurts my feelings when people feel the need to go to their car when I'm training. I know I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not strong enough to actually hurt him and he hasn't shown any signs that this work isn't right for him but reactions like that make me second guess myself.


You answered your own question. Work on yourself and your reaction to people like that. That is their problem, not yours.

I was working a dog for a woman at a club and asked her to simply point her dog at blind five and as she was sending him to simply direct the dog with her hand on the collar while she pointed at the blind. I was agitating the dog from the other blind and in the midst of it, ( and believe me, there was no struggle at all with the handler and the dog), a woman watching stood up, proclaimed loudly " I thought this was supposed to be a game!" and stormed off to her car. I'll admit, I was momentarily mesmerized by her behavior but we moved right along and left it where it belonged...in her head, not ours. You have to protect yourself from people who try to convince you are somehow "cruel" when you know you are not. That behavior is becoming much more common now. 

I will say this though, if you have to continually correct your dog and it does not become a more rare occurrence, you are doing something wrong. The purpose of a correction is to teach the dog. Once the dog learns, they are not necessary or only rarely. Also, your demeanor must remain the same. Meaning you are upbeat and the same friendly person when you are correcting. People get upset when they watch an angry person correcting a dog or someone raising their voice. For good reason, that behavior upsets the dog as well and is not good training. Something to consider if any of those things fit what you are doing.

Why you are going to the e-collar if this is working?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Vandal said:


> You answered your own question. Work on yourself and your reaction to people like that. That is their problem, not yours.
> 
> I was working a dog for a woman at a club and asked her to simply point her dog at blind five and as she was sending him to simply direct the dog with her hand on the collar while she pointed at the blind. I was agitating the dog from the other blind and in the midst of it, ( and believe me, there was no struggle at all with the handler and the dog), a woman watching stood up, proclaimed loudly " I thought this was supposed to be a game!" and stormed off to her car. I'll admit, I was momentarily mesmerized by her behavior but we moved right along and left it where it belonged...in her head, not ours. You have to protect yourself from people who try to convince you are somehow "cruel" when you know you are not. That behavior is becoming much more common now.
> 
> ...


It is working, we're on our 5th session and now one or two good "hey snap out of it" corrections are all we need during OB then he works beautifully. It's been carrying over into protection as well, so I'm confident that we're on the right path. My demeanor doesn't change, I'm a pretty quiet person across the board.

We're going to an e-collar for protection only, if we need to. Right now we are double handling him because my corrections when he's in that high of drive are more stimulating than anything so it will allow me to work my own dog.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, in a few weeks those people shouldn't have to sit in their car. In the meantime, maybe they can go pick up lunch or something.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> In the meantime, maybe they can go pick up lunch or something.


:rofl:


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