# Showing W/L in breed shows?



## Charlie W

I know nothing about breed shows and I might be wrong here, but I'm under the impression that only show line dogs feature in breed shows. Is that the case, or do working line dogs sometimes compete in breed shows, and if so how do they fare / how are they received?

I hope this isn't a silly question, please be kind


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## Xeph

> Is that the case, or do working line dogs sometimes compete in breed shows, and if so how do they fare / how are they received?


Sometimes they do, but it is generally money wasted. They are there to make a "statement". Some people (spectators) state how much they prefer the WL entered over the SL entered, but just as many prefer the SL dogs (this is my personal experience, having both WL and SL).

I could enter this guy in a show









He has testicles, he's a purebred German Shepherd Dog, he's an acceptable color. But why would I when the following is what wins?










It's a waste of $60


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## Charlie W

I'm no expert but I think both of these dogs look wonderful! It almost seems as though there should be a separate breed show for W/L and S/L, but then I guess you risk creating a bigger divide, not just in type but owner / judge attitudes which seem to be an issue.. My GSD is a cross between the two, so I have no feelings either way, although I'm planning a second W/L addition to the family later in the year..


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## Xeph

But they're not separate breeds (though many would like to view them as such). They are the same breed with very different strains.

I have a cross line dog. I feel he's the best of my whole crew. I can admit that it is, in some part, luck.

Both dogs may look wonderful to you, but they are extremely different in structure (and temperament and drive). The first dog just does not have what it takes for the show ring, the second, not so much for "real" work.


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## Charlie W

I find it strange that the breed has been divided this way, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I had a working Border Collie, or gundog, I could compete against non-working dogs of the same breed in a conformation ring. 

I mean Herr von Stephanitz only created one type, so I guess it makes me wonder how we got to where we are now?

Not making any judgements either way, I just find it interesting..


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## NancyJ

Well, even in Von Stephantiz' day there were arguments between folks on structure based on show vs working. 

Actually I think there is a divide in Border Collies as well, with show types that don't have the characteristic cow hocks needed for the quick turns and agility. Same with labradors etc.

You could "do" it but I would not expect success because of the difference in type. The lines really don't cross a lot in breeding so I don't have a problem with the groups going their separate ways.


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## Wolfgeist

I wouldn't bother showing in AKC/CKC... I am showing my sable working line male in UKC, and have already showed him in the SV ring where he earned his SG rating.


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## MaggieRoseLee

In many breeds there is a split between those who want a 'working' type dog and those just going for a look. Hunting dogs show this (field vs show).

Go to English or American Lab?

and look at those 2 yellow labs...


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## Merciel

Charlie W said:


> I find it strange that the breed has been divided this way, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I had a working Border Collie, or gundog, I could compete against non-working dogs of the same breed in a conformation ring.


You could, and if you had a dog bred purely for work -- a purely herding BC or a purely field-line working Golden or Lab -- you'd lose just the same.

It is what it is. The show/work division exists to some extent in every breed that's got working roots and is big enough to support that spread in population. The split in GSDs is much bigger than any other I know of, but all the other breeds have them too.


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## Andaka

The OP lives in New Zealand, so the proticals may be different over there.


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## Charlie W

I think NZ protocols are probably similar, and I stand corrected on the differences within other breeds. I have been to foxhound shows where hounds participating in the role for which they were bred are being judged. But these hounds differ from many breeds in that they are almost exclusively working animals.

Thinking about it now, there's an irony in producing a dog breed for a job, then using individual dogs not best placed to do that job as the benchmark for the breed! I suppose showing has become it's own animal..

All interesting stuff!


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## Xeph

Conformation exhibition has been its own animal for several decades


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## Charlie W

> _Conformation exhibition has been its own animal for several decades_


So it seems, and I guess I've never thought about it until I spent a bit of time on this forum, as, aside from some low-level obedience, I've never moved in competitive circles.

The thing that I just find it hard to understand, is; if a show dog is conformationally different from a working dog, then how does the correct conformation get decided? I understand that with a working dog, it would be based on physical attributes required to do the job for which the dog has been bred. But if the dog is not expected to be built for a job, then how do the breed experts decide what is, and what isn't desirable?

I'm guessing it's a fluid thing that changes over time, according to fashions of the day?

As I said before, I'm not making any judgements, I genuinely find it an interesting subject that I have never thought about before. This forum is great for "visiting" new areas of dog ownership!

I'm riding later today with a breeder friend of mine who spends a huge amount of her time off travelling the country going to breed shows with her Ridgebacks, she has several NZ champions that are related to UK champions she bred before emigrating to NZ...I will be picking her brains extensively!


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## Xeph

> how does the correct conformation get decided?


The breed standard. And the breed standard is never the issue...the interpretation and application (or lack thereof) of the breed standard that is the problem.


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## Charlie W

OK, that makes sense, thank you!


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## Blitzkrieg1

Curious I have seen some ASL kennels breeding to WL dogs and WGSL. Is this a new fad and if so how do the resulting crosses do?


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## Xeph

It's not a new fad, no. This has been going on for quite some time with ASL x WGSL. I'm breeding my ASL bitch to a WGSL male (and possibly a second WGSL male) for her first litter.

The crosses really depend on the knowledge of the breeder (and the support they have). I've seen some poor stud dog choices for ASL bitches (it is practically ALWAYS ASL bitch x WGSL male, not the other way around), and you end up with crappy offspring that are not at all an improvement on either animal.


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## Xeph

The WL x ASL are very very infrequent, and I do not personally know of any breeders doing that sort of cross.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Whats the goal? More bone, temperment, pigment? Are these dogs winning?


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## Xeph

My own goal is more drive, improved temperament, maintaining good breed type, a bit more coat.

I would have no problem infusing the right WL animals into my program, but I wouldn't do WL x ASL directly, mostly because I think I'd end up with butters (nerve strength issues). Nerve strength is more easily matched between WGSL and ASL. Improvement without crazy animals.

Are these dogs winning? Some of them, yes. There are pure WGSL dogs (recent) that have achieved their American championships, though admittedly those dogs were campaigned by "faces".


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## Xeph

The hardest part of these crosses is not ending up with crappy toplines and no fronts.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I see, would you say there is a movement to blend the two strains of SL or just bring in some new blood to rejuv the regular lines?


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## Freestep

Xeph said:


> I would have no problem infusing the right WL animals into my program, but I wouldn't do WL x ASL directly, mostly because I think I'd end up with butters (nerve strength issues). Nerve strength is more easily matched between WGSL and ASL. Improvement without crazy animals.


 I heard there were a couple of ASL/DDR crosses that turned out nice.


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## Xeph

> I heard there were a couple of ASL/DDR crosses that turned out nice.


Yes. But I don't know any that have finished their championship(s).

There is not a movement (IMO) to blend the lines. This is more a matter for ASL people, I believe, to bring in new blood.


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## Freestep

Charlie W said:


> The thing that I just find it hard to understand, is; if a show dog is conformationally different from a working dog, then how does the correct conformation get decided? I understand that with a working dog, it would be based on physical attributes required to do the job for which the dog has been bred. But if the dog is not expected to be built for a job, then how do the breed experts decide what is, and what isn't desirable?


 Well, isn't that a good question? It's, uh, complicated.  This is an oft-discussed issue amongst the experts themselves... what is and isn't desirable, and who decides? Which GSD is the "real" GSD? Each camp thinks theirs is, and has their own reasoning, which the other camps tend to disagree with.



> I'm guessing it's a fluid thing that changes over time, according to fashions of the day?


 Yes and no. The standard itself does not change, but the interpretation of it changes. Look at any breed and how it evolves (or devolves) over time. Some are very dramatic, within 50 years you wouldn't know it was the same breed. Who makes these changes? Judges, handlers, breeders all influence each other. Sometimes a "fad" will come along, some great show dog that has some extreme trait that everyone goes ga-ga over, breeders reproduce it, famous handlers get the dogs seen, judges put them up... fashion... politics... nepotism... yada yada yada. People want to win, and will do whatever it takes.

My personal feeling, which is quite idealistic, is that judges can only put up what is put in front of them. If we get working lines--of any breed--into the conformation ring, the judge at least has a choice. Maybe some all-breed judges have secretly hated the current fad in a certain breed, and maybe they look at the WL dog in the ring and think "we need more of THAT". And if they are brave, they will put up the WL dog, just to make a statement. 

Now, this assumes there are (or will be) judges that are NOT corrupt and politically beholden. This will not happen overnight. I'm thinking that *IF* people start showing their working-line dogs, not to win, but just to get them seen, judges will get used to seeing them, and come to appreciate them. And maybe in 30-40 years, we will start to see things change. 

But it has to start somewhere, so I think showing WL dogs in AKC conformation is a great thing to do if you have the stones for it. You can't go in expecting to win, and you have to be gracious. You will be spending money, so you have be able to get something out of it other than winning. Personally I love seeing working lines of any breed in the conformation ring, and I think they should get out and be seen. A dog that still does what it was bred to do--imagine that!


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## Xeph

> I think showing WL dogs in AKC conformation is a great thing to do if you have the stones for it.


And the money. It is not inexpensive.


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## Liesje

I've shown WL dogs but in UKC. Several reasons...in AKC it seems you need a pro handler to do well. I don't have a problem with that but my *own* dogs are always HOT (handler-owner-trained). The point of doing ring training and conformation class is so *I* can show them. UKC is a more appropriate venue for that. It's less expensive and much more accessible for me since headquarters are an hour away. I could probably show once a month without ever leaving the state if I wanted to. Also I do other UKC performance events, so I can enter a dog in multiple things at one show. I don't do any AKC performance events anymore. People I know are more into UKC so it's easier to round up enough dogs to actually get "wins" (you have to beat a certain number of dogs in order for it to count). It's not just that the UKC is viewed as more WGSL or WL friendly, it just makes more sense.


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## qbchottu

Stick with UKC or SV type shows if you plan on showing working lines. I have shown several working dogs in SV shows and have always done well. Judges are fair to dogs that are conditioned, prepared, trained, and ready for the show ring. It's annoying to have a ring of prepared dogs ready to gait/stack/show - only to have a oddity shrieking nutcase in the mix that disrupts the flow of the ring. 

Whichever venue you decide on, give it the proper respect by preparing and training in advance. Good luck to you


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## Smithie86

Definitely training in the ring, practice for tattoo check/microchip check (make sure readable and have it), teeth and stacking and possibly get a show handler for the show it self.

Show handler fees are "usually" cost of the class. Payable there....

It is respect for the other handlers, owners and judge.

And not only is the judge critiquing the structure, he/she is also looking at the temperament. People forget that and can lose a rating due to temperament issues.

Saw it happen this past year.


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