# Back Tying--Never Done This Before



## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

To all who know about my drive building attempts @Jax08 @Steve Strom @Bramble , thank you for helping in the last thread and informing me to be careful and to get trainer help. I'm pretty reckless at times and I definitely needed that, especially since I have pretty much never done this before. 

I have gotten everything sorted out and I am attempting to build Kias's toy drive. I thought I would back tie to help him, since he's pretty bad right now with his drive and he won't pull much. Thing is, I can't find much information on it on the internet and I'm really not used to doing something like this. I would love any suggestions and tips for how to begin. Should I be getting a bungee leash so that he doesn't hurt himself? Where should I tie him? What precautions should I take?

Any comments are welcome! Thanks.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Kathrynil said:


> To all who know about my drive building attempts @Jax08 @Steve Strom @Bramble , thank you for helping in the last thread and informing me to be careful and to get trainer help. I'm pretty reckless at times and I definitely needed that, especially since I have pretty much never done this before.
> 
> I have gotten everything sorted out and I am attempting to build Kias's toy drive. I thought I would back tie to help him, since he's pretty bad right now with his drive and he won't pull much. Thing is, I can't find much information on it on the internet and I'm really not used to doing something like this. I would love any suggestions and tips for how to begin. Should I be getting a bungee leash so that he doesn't hurt himself? Where should I tie him? What precautions should I take?
> 
> Any comments are welcome! Thanks.


Others may feel differently but for me, a bungee is unnecessary. I use a 6ft lead and a harness. I’ve used chain before. No issues with that either, although maybe not the place to start depending on what you’re tying to? I find the easiest place for most people to be a fence post. Just my take on it...like I said, others may disagree. Also, your dog will have to get used to being back tied. I think back tying is great when working alone but it does have its downfalls. One I’ve personally noted is that my dog is so used to me being in front of her, that when others are frustrating her, she can’t figure out why I’m behind her. 

To tie this in with your collar thread, the collar should be able to slip around the dogs neck so the dog doesn’t get tangled. Now, I don’t think you’ll have this problem bc it’s your own dog but, if you’re ever working a different dog I like a loose choke chain or fur saver under the agitation collar. Connect the chain/lead to both. That way if the dog slips the agitation collar, he doesn’t eat you. The choke won’t activate unless the agitation collar is slipped. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just use a 10' nylon long line. that gives him room to move. But you need to get him pulling into the collar first. You are a step ahead of what you need to do. What did RB tell you to do? Did he tell you to start with a flirt pole to get the dog to chase a toy? Did he tell you to hold the dog and kick the toy like the Dave Kroyer video I sent you?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I can tell you are motivated to bring the best out of your dog. If I remember correctly, your dog has a lot of DDR dogs behind him. The first thing is to determine if genetically, his primary drive is prey or defense or is they are close to equal. IMO, building drive is largely an ineffective training approach. If you have to exaggerate prey movements with a tug, rag, pillow, etc. you are setting up your dog for failure. In sport or real life, the decoy or bad guy is not going to be a dancing monkey trying to get the dog to bite them. The other issue, if I remember correctly, is that you are a very young novice. It is very common for misinformed people to increase prey stimulation if the dog is not showing motivation to bite the prey object. In the short run you might see some success but in the longrun you are setting your dog up for failure. Plus, it is akin to learning to cut hair by just trying it and having no formal training. You need a skilled helper to work your dog and they are few and far between.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I can tell you are motivated to bring the best out of your dog. If I remember correctly, your dog has a lot of DDR dogs behind him. The first thing is to determine if genetically, his primary drive is prey or defense or is they are close to equal. IMO, building drive is largely an ineffective training approach. If you have to exaggerate prey movements with a tug, rag, pillow, etc. you are setting up your dog for failure. In sport or real life, the decoy or bad guy is not going to be a dancing monkey trying to get the dog to bite them. The other issue, if I remember correctly, is that you are a very young novice. It is very common for misinformed people to increase prey stimulation if the dog is not showing motivation to bite the prey object. In the short run you might see some success but in the longrun you are setting your dog up for failure. Plus, it is akin to learning to cut hair by just trying it and having no formal training. You need a skilled helper to work your dog and they are few and far between.


Thank you. I have a trainer helping me as well get started. I'm just copying the movements the decoys make when they attempt to get a dog to get into drive. 


Jax08 said:


> Just use a 10' nylon long line. that gives him room to move. But you need to get him pulling into the collar first. You are a step ahead of what you need to do. What did RB tell you to do? Did he tell you to start with a flirt pole to get the dog to chase a toy? Did he tell you to hold the dog and kick the toy like the Dave Kroyer video I sent you?


He never mentioned flirt poles, though I'm probably going to just make a homemade one anyway. He mentioned holding the leash and keeping the dog just out of reach of the toy or ball. But when I do this Kias won't pull well, and I don't want to bowl him forward. (I think that's what you call it) I'm thinking of something I could do that would make it easier to tease and help him to pull more? Do you think this won't work?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What do you mean he won't pull well? Are you saying he is not going after the toy when you present it a pull it away causing the dog to miss it when he attempts to strike it? A dog with sufficient prey drive should come into drive at the sight of a toy or bite pillow. Building drive for a toy in obedience is a little different than building drive for a pillow/wedge in bite work. In obedience, the dog can be off leash or you can let the leash be attached to the collar and on the ground. I don't like to do prey work for bite work with my own dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here is an example of how to use the toy to stimulate prey in obedience. Keep in mind this is a high level dog and trainer. The dog is off leash. The handler makes prey with the toy with quick misses and then quickly lures the dog into a sit or you can lure to a down. The dog should have learned sit and down already by using food. The handler is essentially stimulating prey, capping it with a sit, and releasing the dog into the reward.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What do you mean he won't pull well? Are you saying he is not going after the toy when you present it a pull it away causing the dog to miss it when he attempts to strike it? A dog with sufficient prey drive should come into drive at the sight of a toy or bite pillow. Building drive for a toy in obedience is a little different than building drive for a pillow/wedge in bite work. In obedience, the dog can be off leash or you can let the leash be attached to the collar and on the ground. I don't like to do prey work for bite work with my own dog.


He will not go after the toy well. He will not pull to get to the toy. I'm not planning on doing protection with him, so this drive building is just for obedience.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Kathrynil said:


> He will not go after the toy well. He will not pull to get to the toy. I'm not planning on doing protection with him, so this drive building is just for obedience.


“The toy” meaning a ball?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I will also ask what are you using for a toy and does what you are doing look anything like the video I posted above. Odds are, based on your dog's pedigree, he has low prey drive and that is not going to change. You can try getting a 12" or so section of about 1" pvc pipe or a cut off broom handle or anything similar, drill a small hole in the end and tie some 1/4" cotton line about 2' long and tie some type of cloth about the size of a small hand towel or smaller to the line, which is essentially a mini flirt pole. A rag tied to a buggy whip works better because you can put more action into the movement of the rag. You don't need to tie your dog out. As usual, this involves a skill set, but you want to make short, quick jerky motions with the rag on the ground to see if you can stimulate your dog's prey drive. But if you have to do that much work, you have a dog with low prey drive and are not going to get fast, precise obedience. DDR dogs were not bred for that. But it is worth a try. Your other option is food, but the dog has to have good food drive.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Rope and ball. Tug toy.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I will also ask what are you using for a toy and does what you are doing look anything like the video I posted above. Odds are, based on your dog's pedigree, he has low prey drive and that is not going to change. You can try getting a 12" or so section of about 1" pvc pipe or a cut off broom handle or anything similar, drill a small hole in the end and tie some 1/4" cotton line about 2' long and tie some type of cloth about the size of a small hand towel or smaller to the line, which is essentially a mini flirt pole. A rag tied to a buggy whip works better because you can put more action into the movement of the rag. You don't need to tie your dog out. As usual, this involves a skill set, but you want to make short, quick jerky motions with the rag on the ground to see if you can stimulate your dog's prey drive. But if you have to do that much work, you have a dog with low prey drive and are not going to get fast, precise obedience. DDR dogs were not bred for that. But it is worth a try. Your other option is food, but the dog has to have good food drive.


Second this. My dogs puppy flirt pole was a ball on string and buggy whip. Worked great. But as chip said, no ddr here. 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I doubt you'll get anything worthwhile out of back tying him. He basically shuts down from pressure on the leash now, I don't think that will change much or that he wants the toy bad enough to do anything different then what you see with him now. 
If you think about term "Building Drive" as rewarding effort, look towards small steps you can take that will encourage some effort so that he learns that he can get something by trying. Look at that Flinks video, just the simple luring him into a sit with the toy above him and then obviously dropping it with an opening of your hand to catch can be a good first step you can build on. You can probably get to a point where restraining him from it can give you something productive, but not yet. 

If he really isn't motivated at all for a toy, try throwing pieces of food like your playing two ball. Throw one piece to the left call him back and throw one to the right. Rewarding effort with the idea of shaping it into something later.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Okay. Alright, thanks everybody for helping! I'll see what goes on and if I can make any headway.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Is your goal to motivate him to play with a toy? I'd start with the techniques many agility trainers use just for that motivation. Save the back tie for later because you may be going places like into his defense drive that you aren't ready to explore yet! Look into people like Susan Garrett and Denise Fenzi. While I don't agree with these trainers on everything, they do know how to motivate dogs with a toy. Doing it this way has less potential fall out for a new trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree with Muskeg. You have a dog with low prey and high defense. I would be careful how you frustrate him.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Agreed.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I’ll throw my hat in the ring as well and agree. I’m on my first sport trained dog and I would not venture to back ty without very clear, hands on guidance.


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