# Buying a puppy from a breeder is a "gamble"



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Do you buy it? Are there enough documented cases of people seeking a breeder producing dogs suited to the buyer's needs, but in the end the dog didn't turn out as anticipated?

In my opinion, I've played the gamble game with my pet store dog. My next dog, I plan on "removing" that gamble by purchasing from a breeder producing dogs that are well suited for what I have in mind.

Where I'm going with this is really the push towards rescue when people ask about buying a dog (regardless of breed). Seems to me, even in an adult dog where you can more/less see their personality, temperament, structure, etc- they are still every bit as much of a gamble as a puppy from a reputable breeder. Do you agree or disagree? I'm just not sure getting a puppy is really all that much of a gamble when you've done your research.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dogs are living, breathing, creatures. So yes, buying a puppy from anywhere is a gamble. You can increase your odds of a healthy, stable puppy by buying from a good breeder. But, IMO, there are always risks involved to some extent.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

While Kyleigh is only 18 months old, I have to say that I haven't had any "surprises" (yet). Physically she's perfect (so far), mentally, ... well, we're still working on me LOL ... but in all seriousness, so far, I have what I wanted / expected. 

Ky is my first "purebred" dog. All my other dogs were rescues / mutts or whatever you want to call them. 

Personality wise, I had no issues / problems with any of them ... 

Health wise ... I had thousands of dollars of problems with them ... and pet insurance didn't exist way back when ... I did have it with my last two tho so that helped. 

Hard to say because I've read so much on here with people having purebreds, and having tons of issues ...


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

You can really see what they are all about when they are about 4 months old. Structure and temperament.

Puppies need a really keen eye (good breeders!) to pick them. I know some breeders hold a few of their favorites back to really see how they develop. And even, tho, sometimes the dog is not interested in the same type of games you are!

Adult dogs come with baggage and buttons that you may or may not want/like.

Some just observations from an old, grumpy lady..lol!!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

wildo said:


> I'm just not sure getting a puppy is really all that much of a gamble when you've done your research.


I think this line is the key. Of course buying from a reputable breeder where you can see what they are/have produced is much less of a gamble.

I also think adopting adult dogs from organizations that do temperament testing, an observation period (min time of 3-4 wks in a qualified foster home) and vet check ups is also much less of a gamble than picking a puppy up from a pet store, out of the paper or even the shelter. 

The problem is the general public does not do their research no matter where they obtain their dog. They adopt because they are told it's the right thing to do or buy a puppy so they "know what they are getting" but don't know how to pick a breeder, evaluate or even raise dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When people say things like gamble or crapshoot it makes me think the odds aren't good, like 50/50. That I do not buy. At least in my own personal experience/anecdotal evidence every dog I've purchase or adopted directly from its breeder has been healthy and has not let me down nor been any different in temperament or conformation than what I expected based on my research and what the breeder said would be delivered. I think what makes the odds go down are when people get obsessed about certain details like whether every dog in the 5 gen pedigree is OFA excellent or whether the breeder has an air tight contract. I believe I've had good success so far because I focus on the *dog*. More than once it has taken me 2+ years of research to decide what I wanted in my next dog. At that point, finding a breeder wasn't really that difficult. I place emphasis on the dog I am getting and not what the breeder tells me about their contract. For example if good hips are a priority then I would research the hip production of the pedigree, backwards, forwards, and horizontally and not just be satisfied with a breeder saying they offer a "hip warranty". 

I place the responsibility on myself as the buyer to do the research and to know and understand what I want and why. I don't believe it is the breeder's responsibility to have to flesh all that out and hopefully provide me with what they think I want. I'm not really convinced either way with regard to fancy contracts and warranties and guarantees. I've bought with and without.

Nothing in live is ever 100% certain so of course there's always that margin where it can be a "gamble" but IMO that goes without saying.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah, I agree that they are living creatures and thus there will be some uncertainty there. But often the "logic" (I quote that because I'm skeptical that it's actually logical) is that when one buys from a breeder, there is risk that the dog will not turn out to meet the buyer's needs, while on the other hand, a buyer could rescue a dog which they are more able to interact with the dog to see if it meets their needs or not.

I'm making the claim that if the breeder is consistently producing dogs that have a structure that you prefer, whose breeding stock holds a temperament that you prefer, whose dogs are producing wins in the sports you prefer, whose dogs are maintaining a modicum of health that you desire-- then such "gambles" are so far reduced to be almost negligible. But rescue, you generally don't know the baggage, or the health, or the background, or really anything that you get when buying from a quality breeder.

I just don't see the logic in stating that a rescue removes the gamble that a puppy brings.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

> I just don't see the logic in stating that a rescue removes the gamble that a puppy brings


The only thing I can think of for this is that if the dog is "rescued" / adopted around age 3 and up ... the gamble's not as high since they've likely had a chance to do all the temperment testing, etc. And healthwise, they can do x-rays for hips, and all the other stuff ... with a puppy ... you haven't a clue ... because none of these traits have shown up yet

For example: size, weight, hyper, calm, etc ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wildo said:


> I'm making the claim that if the breeder is consistently producing dogs that have a structure that you prefer, whose breeding stock holds a temperament that you prefer, whose dogs are producing wins in the sports you prefer, whose dogs are maintaining a modicum of health that you desire-- then such "gambles" are so far reduced to be almost negligible. But rescue, you generally don't know the baggage, or the health, or the background, or really anything that you get when buying from a quality breeder.
> 
> I just don't see the logic in stating that a rescue removes the gamble that a puppy brings.



Agreed. And maybe getting off topic but another thing I always find odd is when people argue that breeders are not needed because there are nice, purebred dogs in rescue. OK where do you think those dogs came from? Someone carefully and purposefully BRED them!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Kyleigh said:


> The only thing I can think of for this is that if the dog is "rescued" / adopted around age 3 and up ... the gamble's not as high since they've likely had a chance to do all the temperment testing, etc. And healthwise, they can do x-rays for hips, and all the other stuff ... with a puppy ... you haven't a clue ... because none of these traits have shown up yet
> 
> For example: size, weight, hyper, calm, etc ...


But this is no different than getting a dog from a breeder. If you get a puppy from a rescue they can't tell you any more than a breeder could, in fact a lot less because usually the pedigree is unknown (I foster mixed breed puppies and always caution potential adopters that the dog they see now might not be the dog they end up with). I got a 3.5 year old dog from a breeder, already had her hips checked, knew the health and temperament, etc. I asked for a healthy, athletic, adult dog that wasn't extreme in drive or any aspect and would be suitable for pretty much any dog sport and that's exactly what I got (and did half a dozen dog sports with said dog).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kyleigh said:


> The only thing I can think of for this is that if the dog is "rescued" / adopted around *age 3 and up* ... the gamble's not as high since they've likely had a chance to do all the temperment testing, etc. And healthwise, they can do x-rays for hips, and all the other stuff ... with a puppy ... you haven't a clue ... because none of these traits have shown up yet
> 
> For example: size, weight, hyper, calm, etc ...


Agreed. I don't think the health "gamble" is any better, probably worse. Rescues don't do testing unless necessary. But if the rescue is good, they've had the dog in foster and know exactly what the issues may be and the personality of the dog.

There are pros and cons to puppy from a good breeder and getting a rescue. It's an argument we've had many times on the board.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It depends one what means by "gamble" really. If one equates that to a 50/50 coin toss, or worse casino or lottery odds, than I would disagree with the statements that getting a pup from a breeder is a gamble. A buyer doing his/her research and using a reputable breeder certainly has much better odds.

If by "gamble" one means that the outcome is not certain and there is the possibility that things may not turn out as planned and hoped, regardless of how much research is done or how reputable the breeder and solid the bloodline, than I would agree. Had that happen myself as both a customer and as a breeder.

As far as breeder vs rescue vs anything else, the biggest factor to me there is age. A breeder puppy is less of a gamble than a rescue puppy, just based on how much is able to be known about the genetics behind the breeder pup and how much is unknown about the genetics behind the rescue pup.

But if talking a breeder pup vs a rescue adult, now things are different. The older the dog, regardless of where it comes from, the more that is known about that individual dog. The older the dog the less the pedigree is important, and the less any temperament testing or health testing of generations past matters. As the saying goes "pedigree says what a dog should be, the dog tells you who he IS". With a puppy, many temperament and health issues remain to be seen. With an adult, they can be seen. No guesswork based on pedigree and relatives is needed. They are simply either present or not and the chances of things changing in the future are much lower when the dog being looked at is already mature. 

So I would say getting an older dog, any older dog, is less of a gamble than getting a puppy, any puppy.


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## arby665 (Nov 21, 2012)

Ahhhh....this is a touchy subject with me. I have always felt that there is no need to buy a dog from a breeder. I do a lot of volunteer work and fostering (cats) for a local rescue group and know all too well the amount of animals needing homes. However, I have had a couple of bad experiences with a couple of rescue dogs and swore I would never own one again. Actually, I swore that after my Tia girl is gone that I would never have any dog again! Yet, here I am. Baby Karly is coming next week. I sometimes feel guilty about it (not getting a rescue) but then I feel like I know what I am getting and won't go through the heartache that I have in the past. With that being said, Tia is a rescue and is THE best girl I have ever met. They don't all come with problems and I will continue to steer people towards rescue dogs.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

wildo said:


> Yeah, I agree that they are living creatures and thus there will be some uncertainty there. But often the "logic" (I quote that because I'm skeptical that it's actually logical) is that when one buys from a breeder, there is risk that the dog will not turn out to meet the buyer's needs, while on the other hand, a buyer could rescue a dog which they are more able to interact with the dog to see if it meets their needs or not.
> 
> I'm making the claim that if the breeder is consistently producing dogs that have a structure that you prefer, whose breeding stock holds a temperament that you prefer, whose dogs are producing wins in the sports you prefer, whose dogs are maintaining a modicum of health that you desire-- then such "gambles" are so far reduced to be almost negligible. But rescue, you generally don't know the baggage, or the health, or the background, or really anything that you get when buying from a quality breeder.
> 
> I just don't see the logic in stating that a rescue removes the gamble that a puppy brings.


I agree with this. In addition, when you rescue you usually do not get a trial period in your home long enough where you are actually seeing the 'real' dog anyway. How many times have people adopted a dog and a couple of months later they remark that the dog is "an entirely different dog" than they thought they had adopted? Unless the adopter has experience with dog behavior, I'm not sure the interactions are really much help at all.

Basically I think taking on a living being is a gamble, regardless. You can stack the deck in your favor but you'll never eliminate all (maybe even most) risk.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> As the saying goes "pedigree says what a dog should be, the dog tells you who he IS".
> 
> So I would say getting an older dog, any older dog, is less of a gamble than getting a puppy, any puppy.


Hmmm... I didn't expect that coming from you. I think that's a good saying; it makes sense. But not all medical issues can be seen in the adult rescue dog. (I'm having a hard time coming up with an example other than hip dysplasia- which CAN be checked). Certainly there are other genetic issues (perhaps DM? Chronic Heart Failure?) that are not so easily checked.

I don't know. If the idea is to get a SPORT dog, it just makes sense to me that a puppy from a very well known genetic past is probably less of a gamble than an adult rescue who seems promising, but might die of heart failure the first time he jumps the apex of an a-frame, or breaks a leg due to weak bones when falling off a dog walk...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> It depends one what means by "gamble" really. If one equates that to a 50/50 coin toss, or worse casino or lottery odds, than I would disagree with the statements that getting a pup from a breeder is a gamble. A buyer doing his/her research and using a reputable breeder certainly has much better odds.
> 
> If by "gamble" one means that the outcome is not certain and there is the possibility that things may not turn out as planned and hoped, regardless of how much research is done or how reputable the breeder and solid the bloodline, than I would agree. Had that happen myself as both a customer and as a breeder.
> 
> ...


Perfectly said.
Sheilah


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

wildo said:


> Hmmm... I didn't expect that coming from you. I think that's a good saying; it makes sense. But not all medical issues can be seen in the adult rescue dog. (I'm having a hard time coming up with an example other than hip dysplasia- which CAN be checked). Certainly there are other genetic issues (perhaps DM? Chronic Heart Failure?) that are not so easily checked.
> 
> I don't know. If the idea is to get a SPORT dog, it just makes sense to me that a puppy from a very well known genetic past is probably less of a gamble than an adult rescue who seems promising, but might die of heart failure the first time he jumps the apex of an a-frame, or breaks a leg due to weak bones when falling off a dog walk...


If you're looking at an adult, most things can be checked. Heart can be checked by a cardiologist armed with an echocardiogram. Hips, elbows, shoulders, back can be checked with x-rays. DM cheek swab can be done at any age to see if the dog is at risk (if one puts stock in the current DM DNA test). Full blood work can be run to check for a slew of other things.

All of that is going to cost money. Quite a lot of money. Probably more than most people would be inclined to invest in a rescue dog they are interested in. But the point is that it CAN be done on an adult if someone wants to pay for it. It can't be done on a puppy. 

Will it rule out all potential health issues? No, of course not. Nothing will with an adult or a puppy. But it rules out the majority of those that are the most common and most likely to affect the dog's quality of life and ability to participate in sport or other activities. The health issues remaining that can't be tested for are mostly ones that affect senior dogs, are less common, and often appear far more random so even knowing the pedigree and background of the dog wouldn't provide a much better guess at what the future may bring.

Now if one wants the smallest possible gamble of all, buy an adult dog that has been temperament and health tested but also has a known pedigree. And pay the price that goes along with that level of assurance.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Wildo..I think if you want to make sure you get the winner..you need to buy the winner! When you are ready...go make an offer on the top agility dog in the country. 

Then, you know what you have!! You have the winner!! Thats how horse people do it!! 

But, logically...you just never know..for certain! That is why my mother has six or seven (not sure?) border collies. All bred for herding, good lines..some didnt want to herd, so they do agility! Some did not want to do agility, (poor work ethic..lol) so they do therapy.. You get the picture. But, I forgot..her best agility dog was given to her because he did not like frisbee exhibitions!

You are an engineer..I dont know if you can "build" the perfect dog. A breeder can certainly strive toward the breed standard..but does the dog love your choosen sport. Only time will tell.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

In my own experience I got exactly what I thought I was going I get temperament wise with both dogs I purchased from breeders. However one of them (from a reputable breeder) has TERRIBLE allergies, so ya I think health wise it's always a bit of a gamble. I have also had rescues with terrible health and with great health. Buy pet insurance! To me the temperament in a lot of ways is less of a gamble than health.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

ponyfarm said:


> Wildo..I think if you want to make sure you get the winner..you need to buy the winner! When you are ready...go make an offer on the top agility dog in the country.
> 
> Then, you know what you have!! You have the winner!! Thats how horse people do it!!


And then just like the horse people, you find out that the animal was only part of the equation, and your trainer-handler-animal team is lacking something that the prior team wasn't and lo-and-behold you STILL don't have the winner!

But, at least you know your losses aren't because the animal doesn't have what it takes 

(Or in the case of my old trainer, you take a world champion horse and rider and on a whim you _*change the bits 30min before the event without telling your rider*_. Then you wonder why the horse now looks like crap on toast and why your rider is ready to skin you alive when you explain why the horse was completely unresponsive to the reins)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

*EDIT this is kind of long so it is just a personal account of the routes I have gone down with puppy vs adult.......may not add to much other than anecdotal perspective.*

My two cents from the perspective of one who recently "took the gamble" again as I DO feel a puppy is more of a gamble than with a properly screened young adult raised in a working environment and properly socialized, drive building done, etc. [as I have done that as well]

My perspective is from wanting to wind up with a working SAR dog (cadaver) not for a pet where I might adapt to a dog with certain quirks and look at them as a challenge for my own skills as an owner. 

Having spent almost 3 years (2003-2006) training a young GSD from proven working lines with a good litter ZW only to wind up with bilateral severe HD so now I had 3 years invested in what ultimately became a beloved pet - and no closer to having a SAR dog.

I made a choice to get a young adult the as soon as she was retired, so I could hit the ground running. I paid more but I knew he was OFA good, had a good back, and no known diseases or illness and I could screen his drive and working ability. He certified (in 2008-I had some delays because in 2006-2007 my dad got lung cancer and mom had a massive stroke and I am an only child so I was not engaged in training for almost 6 months with him) and was operational for a number of years (last certified in 2012) until about the age of 9 when little things started happening that led me to retiring him.

I was faced with the same challenge when I got Beau as my intent was to get a young adult green dog again - even turned down two free working line puppies.
But here is the thing.......it seems good working prospects are a little bit costlier when I got Beau than when I got Grim. DOD and all that. So now the $2000 I spent for Grim (who was 2 and OFA good when I got him) would have been about $4000-6000 for a young adult with what I needed, and one I could evaluate and return if not suitable.

But I knew Beau's breeder, what she had and what she was going for, and the solid working history of his close relatives (parents, aunts, uncles). He is working out remarkably and, honestly, the last hurdle is OFA x-rays at 2. Until that is complete I still feel there is somewhat of a gamble though he is showing no signs of any issues.

About the only gamble so far I have lost is I am pretty sure I do not have a "genetically obedient" dog. Ah well, he is definitely engaged but quite a handful. I can live with that. he is good at what I need him to be good at. (cerfied as a 15 month old in 2012)

I was straight up with the breeder as was she with me because she is all about working dogs - if he has a health issue that prevents him from being a working dog, I get a refund. I find a new home for him. [can't have ANOTHER pet right now]. It seems people who deal in dogs for actual work understand the idea a little more than folks looking mainly at pets who could not understand the prospect of rehoming a dog that was not just perfect.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> I DO feel a puppy is more of a gamble than with a properly screened young adult raised in a working environment and properly socialized, drive building done, etc. [as I have done that as well]


Very interesting stuff, jocoyn. Thanks for your perspective! The quote above caught my attention. A puppy is more of a gamble than a screened young adult who has been raised in a working environment, socialized, built drive, holy cow- that's what I'd be doing with a puppy! 

I was more referring to puppy vs rescue than I was puppy vs semi-trained green dog. I do think your perspective is pretty worth while. It must be so frustrating and heart breaking to put in so much time in order for the dog to wash out due to health issues or otherwise. Which brings me to this:



ponyfarm said:


> You are an engineer..I dont know if you can "build" the perfect dog. A breeder can certainly strive toward the breed standard..but does the dog love your choosen sport. Only time will tell.


I only partly agree. I 100% agree that dogs are individuals, and will _of course_ have different desires/drives for certain sports. However all of those SchH puppies don't come out of the womb loving bite sleeves. It's a desire that is built from puppyhood. And I admit that I _don't_ speak from experience since I didn't start Pimg as a pup- but I think that the human's sport of choice should basically end up being the dog's sport of choice if well trained. That sounds harsh, but when I see puppies picked up by prong collars because they won't out a bite sleeve, I find it hard to believe that such desire wasn't built, engineered, if you will. Whether SchH people want to admit it or not, the dog doesn't know what a bite sleeve is the instant it's born. And I'll be the first to admit that a puppy wouldn't know what a dogwalk is or stopped contacts. No, it is _trained _to love it. A desire built from positive motivation.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> And I'll be the first to admit that a puppy wouldn't know what a dogwalk is or stopped contacts. No, it is _trained _to love it. A desire built from positive motivation.


There's going to be some serious karma here if I end up getting a puppy that doesn't like agility!  :rofl:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Any living thing is a gamble. Heck, having kids is a gamble.
There are no sure things in life.. Well, except death.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'll always believe that a puppy is more of a gamble than a grown rescue dog. The thing is though is that you really have to consider what it is you're trying to get out of said dog. If you're looking to do some advance training/trialing (schutzhund, agility, tracking, AKC obedience/rally), a puppy with a proven pedigree of dogs that are successful in that sport is probably your best bet. But if you're looking for a service dog or a SAR dog, an older dog is much more likely to fit those needs as you'll be able to test their "finished" temperament.

Service dog organizations that breed their own dogs generally have a more than a year evaluation process while the dog grows up (in a family) and is trained in general obedience/manner type things. At over a year, they are tested to see if they can perform the service work and at that point are trained for said service. I'm guessing SAR is much the same...not all dogs have the it (and like jocoyn stated, the health), so its much better to see the dog a little older and assess it then. Problem with dogs is, once 99.9999% of us have had a dog for anything more than a week, we're not going to give it up, and if your goal is to do SAR or your need is for a service dog, its not very practical to raise a dog for a year, figure out its not cut out for the work, and then move on to the next one while keeping the other one. You'll end up like ponyfarm's mom except that you might actually NEED your dog more than just a WANT to have your dog do sport X.

So, if I get a puppy, and it turns out to not be the best Schutzhund or Obedience prospect, its not really the end of the world to me. I still have a nice pet. But if I get a puppy, and it can't be my service dog in a year or two, I've just wasted all that time and now have to start all over for something that is truly affecting my life negatively.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I believe I could go get a puppy from some litters that come out biting a sleeve...well maybe not a sleeve but you get the gist.lol....still, pups with health issues factored in are a gamble, IMO.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Chris Wild It depends one what means by "gamble" really. If one equates that to a 50/50 coin toss, or worse casino or lottery odds, than I would disagree with the statements that getting a pup from a breeder is a gamble. A buyer doing his/her research and using a reputable breeder certainly has much better odds.
> 
> If by "gamble" one means that the outcome is not certain and there is the possibility that things may not turn out as planned and hoped, regardless of how much research is done or how reputable the breeder and solid the bloodline, than I would agree. Had that happen myself as both a customer and as a breeder.
> 
> ...





> Originally Posted by *wildo*
> _Hmmm... I didn't expect that coming from you. I think that's a good saying; it makes sense. But not all medical issues can be seen in the adult rescue dog. (I'm having a hard time coming up with an example other than hip dysplasia- which CAN be checked). Certainly there are other genetic issues (perhaps DM? Chronic Heart Failure?) that are not so easily checked.
> 
> I don't know. If the idea is to get a SPORT dog, it just makes sense to me that a puppy from a very well known genetic past is probably less of a gamble than an adult rescue who seems promising, but might die of heart failure the first time he jumps the apex of an a-frame, or breaks a leg due to weak bones when falling off a dog walk..._





Chris Wild said:


> If you're looking at an adult, most things can be checked. Heart can be checked by a cardiologist armed with an echocardiogram. Hips, elbows, shoulders, back can be checked with x-rays. DM cheek swab can be done at any age to see if the dog is at risk (if one puts stock in the current DM DNA test). Full blood work can be run to check for a slew of other things.
> 
> All of that is going to cost money. Quite a lot of money. Probably more than most people would be inclined to invest in a rescue dog they are interested in. But the point is that it CAN be done on an adult if someone wants to pay for it. It can't be done on a puppy.
> 
> ...


These are great, informative posts and very much appreciated. 

Rescues doing it right will be able to tell you about the dog. 

My most recent foster was with me for 10 months (1 month of that was waiting for her pending adoption). I knew what she did, when she did it, how she did it, what color her poop was, she had 2 heartworm tests, was vet checked 3x and we would have (at the cost of the adopter) had her xrayed, etc as requested. She was with me so long because she is not a pet dog. She is a sport dog. There is no potential there, there just "is" there. :laugh: In fact, she got adopted because I had had enough of trying to keep her occupied and out of trouble at our meet and greets and asked if we took a flyball class if we could be waived from the m/g requirement! 

She met a lot of people who were interested in her but weren't ready for her, but ultimately was adopted by the trainer! In 10 classes/sessions she was doing the same things that their puppy bought for flyball was doing in 10 months (not that he isn't great - he is amazing - bred for the sport - and she's not yet as fast as he is). But she was ready to go. That's why some people will say if you want a dog that's going to do whatever, and you want to make sure they want to do it, are good at it, etc, get one that is already doing it - and then, people like me, who foster nutso dogs, say get them from rescue because then we can save them - these dogs, as you can imagine, do not always do well in a shelter eval (my foster was rescue only) and many don't make the adoption floor because of who they are and what they are capable of doing. 

And like Chris said, you can buy an adult who is ready to go as well. So you can do either. 

But Chris's posts are awesome, mine is just ramble and a not so humble brag about my awesome, diabolically smart former foster dog. :rofl: (ETA - she is also starting her a little in agility so I am looking forward to seeing this dog do a lot of stuff in the future)


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I can also share my experiences...I've always wanted to breed GSD's. Over ten years later I still have not bred a litter.

My first GSD turned out overly sharp and very soft. No good for breeding.

My second GSD (Djenga) had/has a fabulous temperament and nice structure, unfortunately she was diagnosed with HD as a young dog. 

Then I got Madina, as a 2 year old. I should have tested her more than I did - but I took the seller's word. If I would have tested her, I would have realized she couldn't be titled. Once I started asking her to do obedience, she completely shut down. I think she had very harsh training before I got her and she didn't have the temperament to be able to bounce back from that. So she was spayed.

Then came Kessy, who I got as a puppy. She has turned out better than I could have dreamed. Great health, fantastic working dog, but I was never able to get her pregnant. We tried several times, with different males, did progesterone, thyroid tests, etc...we did everything we could. I am still heartbroken. 

Now I have Kira - I was pretty much ready to throw in the towel after Kessy, but it just worked out perfectly that I could take Kira and title her. I held my breath a little til her teeth came in normally, and then until we had her hips/elbows checked out...they were just done yesterday, but they look great.
Plus she's working out really nicely as a tending dog - and she's gorgeous - so maybe things have finally worked out for me.

With my terriers - I took a gamble on my male (Gizmo), I found his breeder online and had no connections in the terrier world at the time - but he has the most fabulous temperament and great health. I didn't get him intending to breed, but he is so wonderful that it's led to my getting a female.
My female came from one of the top breeders in the country. She's co-owned til she has a litter, and is also fabulous  They've gotten me hooked on terriers!

I probably could have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd bought PROVEN adult GSD's from the start. But I really enjoy raising dogs from puppyhood, and starting with a blank slate.

I guess this doesn't exactly apply to the debate of buying a puppy vs. rescuing a dog since I'm looking at things from a breeder's perspective. But that's been my journey...LOL


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wildo said:


> I only partly agree. I 100% agree that dogs are individuals, and will _of course_ have different desires/drives for certain sports. However all of those SchH puppies don't come out of the womb loving bite sleeves. It's a desire that is built from puppyhood. And I admit that I _don't_ speak from experience since I didn't start Pimg as a pup- but I think that the human's sport of choice should basically end up being the dog's sport of choice if well trained. That sounds harsh, but when I see puppies picked up by prong collars because they won't out a bite sleeve, I find it hard to believe that such desire wasn't built, engineered, if you will. Whether SchH people want to admit it or not, the dog doesn't know what a bite sleeve is the instant it's born. And I'll be the first to admit that a puppy wouldn't know what a dogwalk is or stopped contacts. No, it is _trained _to love it. A desire built from positive motivation.


You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, some dogs are worked and developed to like doing bitework, but the good ones were born that way. All training does is let these dogs know that they must do what they genetically are programed to do by our rules. I think you can see the same in the really good agility dogs. They love the excitement of the sport and all you have to do is show them the rules. Believe me, Marcia never had to motivate Navarre to run agility. HE LOVED it and still does. Next to bitework it is his favorite things to do. 

Read Ellen Nicklesberg's articles about working with shepherd Manfred Hyne and his dogs. They needed no motivation to work sheep. They were genetically programmed to do the work. He just needed to guide them and show them the rules. 

German Shepherd Herding

You saw Deja at the breed survey? That is genetics. All I have had to do was teach her the rules and reinforce what I want and don't want (we are still working on that part LOL). The motivation is the work, the fight. No rag play, back tying to create drive or to get a desire to bite a rag or sleeve. 

This is what many people don't understand (you are not the only one). Good working dogs are motivated by the work. It is genetic.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hmmm. Very interesting, Lisa! I guess I didn't realize that. The work I've done with Pimg has all been in motivating and training the desire for work. That's my only experience... Geez- working dogs must be so easy!!  (just kidding... kind of.)


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't buy the breeder breeds a dog that fits my
personality. you always hear the breeder picked my 
pup for me. do you ever hear the breeder didn't have a
pup that's a match for me? i think when shape the
dogs temperament. when you find a breeder and you
tell them you want "pick of the litter" how is the breeder
picking a pup for you? when you buy from a reputable
breeder i think the chances of having a problem dog
is slim besides people cause the problems with their dogs.

i think you can have success with a rescue, stray or a pup
from a reputable breeder. if you don't know how to be successful
with your dog find a reputable trainer.



wildo said:


> Do you buy it? Are there enough documented cases of people seeking a breeder producing dogs suited to the buyer's needs, but in the end the dog didn't turn out as anticipated?
> 
> In my opinion, I've played the gamble game with my pet store dog. My next dog, I plan on "removing" that gamble by purchasing from a breeder producing dogs that are well suited for what I have in mind.
> 
> Where I'm going with this is really the push towards rescue when people ask about buying a dog (regardless of breed). Seems to me, even in an adult dog where you can more/less see their personality, temperament, structure, etc- they are still every bit as much of a gamble as a puppy from a reputable breeder. Do you agree or disagree? I'm just not sure getting a puppy is really all that much of a gamble when you've done your research.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

I think any time you buy or take in ANY dog from a breeder, store, or shelter you are always taking a chance regardless of price or where the dog came from. My experience has been an interesting one. We have had wonderful dogs from many different places including expensive GSDs from good breeders. We have had wonderful shelter dogs too that were GSDs and they found a forever home with us. It is sad that puppy mills are allowed to operate along with people who breed inbred dogs, and engage in bad breeding which leaves the dog and owners with terrible problems. I thank all of the good breeders out there who do the right thing for the GSD breed, and breed healthy well rounded dogs!

So you have the health aspect of dogs and each dog born is an individual with their own personality. As they grow you will figure out what it is they need and like to do. What drives and potential you can bring out in the pup as they grow. With puppies at least for me I am looking for a square body with no show dog slant in the spine, hips, or back legs. I am looking to see if the pup is alert with bright eyes. How interested are they in me and if they come to me when introduced. A pup who is not interested in me and wants nothing to do with me I would not take. 

Good breeders can help you figure out which dog may fit your wants, but in the end you really never know what kind of dog you are going to have until you get to know them as they grow up. One thing I have always done is encourage and engage all of our dogs with different activities. Certain activities some liked more than others. 

Kaylee did all of those things when she was little. Bright eyes, alert, and was curious and highly interested in my mother. She wanted to come over to her and play. I had nothing to do with getting her or picking her out. Once she brought her home we discovered that this pup is not your average mild temperament companion pet. Her genetics from her parents are from the American Working line and majority of the liters have become working dogs. As she has grown we discovered her drives, temperament, and over all personality is a serious working dog. Kaylee's brother is actually a working police K9 officer for the Millsboro, DE police department. 

I had no clue about this info until after the pup was brought home and I noticed she was very different. We had to learn and honor what this dog needed. The very first week she was here you would have thought oh this is going to be a relaxed easy going dog, lol.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The sheep herding is a better illustration, I think. I've done multiple herding "lessons" with Nikon. I'm a city girl and had never been anywhere near a sheep before his first "lesson", so there was no training or exposure that happened before that day. I handed him to the instructor and she took him in the ring. There were no other motivators, rewards, corrective devices, just her, my dog, and the sheep. Nikon's a natural at it and it's not often that a border collie person gives high praise to a GSD for *their* style of herding (no one does any HGH stuff save for a few people on the east coat). It just came naturally to Nikon and there was nothing else forcing him to work or motivating him to work. When we went back it was the exact same result. I say "lesson" in quotations because it was pure instinct and I just stood there holding the camera.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I find the idea of genetic "talents" or instinct very intriguing. I think it is definitely more obvious looking at herding, border collies come to my mind with their amazing ability to just "know" what they are doing. There are many other areas where these genetic "talents" come through, golden retrievers who for many generations are bred for competitive obedience seem to just naturally prance in perfect position, GSDs who just know what schutzhund is and how to do it. I used to be a big believer in nurture over nature but over the years I have seen and experienced dogs that just seem to know how to do it before I train it. It really is something else I think that temperament traits seem to be pretty predictable, I think that you can take a lot of the "gamble" out of the equation by intimately knowing the first few generations. 

I am guessing that you are mostly refering to the "talents" needed for a great agility dog? While I don't think you are going to find a GSD that naturally is a rockstar at weaving or has that "instinct" on how exactly to follow handling maneuvers, jumping tight etc (I think you could find this in border collie lines that are super successful at agility, just like you would find it in herding) but you could definitely find some very important traits that would cross over from IPO which GSDs tend to have a "talent/instinct" for. Things like capping, clear headedness, speed with precision etc are all things that are clearly obvious in an IPO dog (if your looking) and are essential for a good agility team. If my next agility dog is going to be another GSD these are some of the things that I will be looking closely at. (Overall health and the structure capable of being at the top in agility is a whole nother topic!)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I think that herding, while an instinct in itself, is also a show of genetic obedience. This is a trait that is useful in agility. Then you spend the time teaching the puppy that the most fun in the world is to "play" with you -- whatever the "game" is.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Now I have Kira - I was pretty much ready to throw in the towel after Kessy, but it just worked out perfectly that I could take Kira and title her. I held my breath a little til her teeth came in normally, and then until we had her hips/elbows checked out...they were just done yesterday, but they look great.
> Plus she's working out really nicely as a tending dog - and she's gorgeous - so maybe things have finally worked out for me.


I am looking forward to hear who is chosen to sire Kira's first litter, and am excited to read about her and her progeny's future!


lhczth said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, some dogs are worked and developed to like doing bitework, but the good ones were born that way. All training does is let these dogs know that they must do what they genetically are programed to do by our rules. I think you can see the same in the really good agility dogs. They love the excitement of the sport and all you have to do is show them the rules. Believe me, Marcia never had to motivate Navarre to run agility. HE LOVED it and still does. Next to bitework it is his favorite things to do.
> 
> Read Ellen Nicklesberg's articles about working with shepherd Manfred Hyne and his dogs. They needed no motivation to work sheep. They were genetically programmed to do the work. He just needed to guide them and show them the rules.
> 
> ...





wildo said:


> Hmmm. Very interesting, Lisa! I guess I didn't realize that. The work I've done with Pimg has all been in motivating and training the desire for work. That's my only experience... Geez- working dogs must be so easy!!  (just kidding... kind of.)


I see the difference in a dog with genetic obedience, genetic drives for doing what is asked and know what a blessing it is! And really, working dogs are easier, because they truly want to please and work! The rule/re-enforcement guideline is key however.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> I am guessing that you are mostly refering to the "talents" needed for a great agility dog?


I think a lot of dogs show what my friends and I call "obstacle drive". I have no idea if this phrase is used in the agility world or not. What it means is, if you release the dog on a course he will just start doing obstacles without direction or being commanded or lured by any rewards (food or toys). When I do agility with Nikon, a lot of times I don't have any rewards on or near me because they actually distract him. He just loves doing agility for the sake of it, he loves every single one of the obstacles (tunnel and A-frame being the favorites). We do flyball in a large facility with a trial-sized agility area and if I'm not paying attention, Nikon will wander off and start playing on obstacles.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I think a lot of dogs show what my friends and I call "obstacle drive". I have no idea if this phrase is used in the agility world or not. What it means is, if you release the dog on a course he will just start doing obstacles without direction or being commanded or lured by any rewards (food or toys). When I do agility with Nikon, a lot of times I don't have any rewards on or near me because they actually distract him. He just loves doing agility for the sake of it, he loves every single one of the obstacles (tunnel and A-frame being the favorites). We do flyball in a large facility with a trial-sized agility area and if I'm not paying attention, Nikon will wander off and start playing on obstacles.


That's definitely part of it, agility is an incredibly complex sport once you really get into it. You certainly can do well with almost any dog in agility but to be really competitive you need a special dog (and more importantly a talented handler!) You can teach any dog to have obstacle drive just by creating value for that piece of equipment using lots of reward. But to have GSD that is capable of beating a border collie "at their game" you need some special talents!I have seen some border collies that really just seem to "know" complex aspects of agility without really being taught, they pick up things like weaving, super contacts, collection, tight turns and jumping like they already knew how to do it. There is no other explanation than genetics, just like a lot of GSDs just "know" how to do schutzhund, all you do is guide and refine the behaviours that are already there. I think that there are several behaviours from schutzhund that transfer well to agility, so in searching for a GSD that will be competitive in agility I think there really isn't much of a gamble when it comes to temperament and working ability suitable for high level competition. 

I personally think that where it becomes more of a gamble is finding a GSD that is physically capable of high level competition and is healthy enough to have good longevity in the sport.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think you can train any dog to "like" whatever sport intended. 

If they aren't into it, they just aren't going to do well no matter how much training.

My rescue gsd, we sort of fell into agility, and she loved it, you could tell she loved it. Obedience was boring for her, she did it, but she wasn't 'into' it.

Masi, I wanted to do agility with, but it was rather obvious early on, she just wasn't into it, sure she'll do the obstacles, but it's just something I can tell, she would rather be doing something else.

Put her tracking harness on, and she is raring to go, no stopping her..THAT is what she loves and does well at (even tho we haven't tested for it)..and obedience, she likes obedience

Aussie same thing, agility "ahh forgettaboutit", throw some sheep on the field and she is OFF the charts..

As for a gamble, I agree anything in life can be a gamble, I DO agree an older , even 6month + green dog can be a better bet than an 8 week old when having something specific in mind.

I'm sure alot of things come into play when it comes to a dog excelling at something, but I do believe, a dog will excell at "whatever" when the dog loves to do it. If the dog loves it, it is soooo much easier to work with, a pleasure to watch and a pleasure to 'play' with.

I also agree with Kristi, finding a gsd that is capable of high level agility competition is far and few in between, as well as having the longevity for it.


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## 3dognite (May 28, 2003)

We've purchased 3 different breeds from 3 different breeders, all well-researched. I wouldn't say that it's a gamble doing it that way other than the fact that sometimes life just weird and weird things happen.

The closest we came to having it not work is with my GSD. He's Schutzhund, high drive and I really wasn't as prepared for that as I should have been, especially having a third puppy in as many years. He challenged me extensively and there were months where I wasn't sure I'd made the right decision.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> That's definitely part of it, agility is an incredibly complex sport once you really get into it. You certainly can do well with almost any dog in agility but to be really competitive you need a special dog (and more importantly a talented handler!) You can teach any dog to have obstacle drive just by creating value for that piece of equipment using lots of reward.


Right, but that's not what I'm getting at. Some dogs will do things just for the sake of it, and are born that way. Some dogs don't need to be taught the motivation to do the work, whether it be agility, herding, Schutzhund, etc. If you want to do really well at one thing, why not buy a dog that is born to do it? I can do (and have done) agility with my mutt but like you say I have to *create* the drive and desire to do it so it takes a lot longer and moves a lot slower. If I wanted to compete regularly I would not be using that dog, but one I got specifically for doing agility. My primary focus right now is Schutzhund so when I buy a dog I buy one that basically comes out of the womb pre-packaged to excel in Schutzhund.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The GSD is supposed to be versatile. I would hope the breeder's pedigree match would have the dog excelling in any venue the handler chooses. 
In Karlo's litter there are dogs doing(excelling) in herding, agility and SchH along with obedience and a few of them are training in multiple venues with success. That is what most breeders should strive for...not just one venue?
Though it is always up to the handler to showcase just what the dog can do, regardless of the pedigree.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I see what your saying about enjoying equipment naturally and that is certainly going to make agility easier. However just because a dog likes the dog walk doesn't mean that he will do it in less than 2 seconds and consistently hit the contact (just an example.) To me a high drive dog will get a great deal of enjoyment out of any sport you do. Having a ton of drive to do well in the sport is kind of a given. But if for example he doesn't "cap" well you will not have a consistent start line, consistent contacts and will have a hard time with collection, tight turns etc. I think that an ability to "cap" for example is largely a genetic trait that is vital to being highly competitive. 


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> If you want to do really well at one thing, why not buy a dog that is born to do it? I can do (and have done) agility with my mutt but like you say I have to *create* the drive and desire to do it so it takes a lot longer and moves a lot slower.



Yes... that's the real question, isn't it? That's kinda why I just joined a BC forum. But this really wasn't about agility (though I have no problem that it morphed into that. I'll talk about agility ANY day!).

I just hear that phrase all the time when people ask about puppies. "Sure, you can get a puppy- but you're taking a gamble in if you'll be able to do ______ with it." 

While there are studies out there finding (or seemingly finding) that environmental stimulation actually CAN affect genetics (I think this is called RNA?) I still reject the idea that a dog is born genetically knowing what a bite sleeve is. A bite sleeve is irrelevant to a dog's normal daily activity. I think what is actually happening is that the dogs are bred with the desire to bite, and this desire is channeled into the bite sleeve. And for that reason, I maintain that a dog that is simply bred to work, and especially work with the handler, is really not much of a gamble at all when you want to do dog sports. It's the work ethic and desire to work WITH the handler that makes it not a gamble. The rest is just channeling the energy into whatever you want to find focus in.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

wildo said:


> Yes... that's the real question, isn't it? That's kinda why I just joined a BC forum. But this really wasn't about agility (though I have no problem that it morphed into that. I'll talk about agility ANY day!).
> 
> I just hear that phrase all the time when people ask about puppies. "Sure, you can get a puppy- but you're taking a gamble in if you'll be able to do ______ with it."
> 
> While there are studies out there finding (or seemingly finding) that environmental stimulation actually CAN affect genetics (I think this is called RNA?) I still reject the idea that a dog is born genetically knowing what a bite sleeve is. A bite sleeve is irrelevant to a dog's normal daily activity. I think what is actually happening is that the dogs are bred with the desire to bite, and this desire is channeled into the bite sleeve. And for that reason, I maintain that a dog that is simply bred to work, and especially work with the handler, is really not much of a gamble at all when you want to do dog sports. It's the work ethic and desire to work WITH the handler that makes it not a gamble. The rest is just channeling the energy into whatever you want to find focus in.


Your not thinking of getting a BC are you?!?!? Lol. I can't say I'd blame you if you REALLY want to be competitive. I think the "gamble" is more about health and structure and yep IMO it can be a gamble.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

lhczth said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, some dogs are worked and developed to like doing bitework, but the good ones were born that way. . . .
> 
> This is what many people don't understand (you are not the only one). Good working dogs are motivated by the work. It is genetic.


So true! I would not have believed it had I not seen it with Minka. At 7 months (i think was her age) she had worked on a puppy sleeve for the first time and she bit so hard my trainer couldn't get his arm out. So he had to switch up to a soft sleeve. He then said to me "send her" and I'm thinking "send her?! How does she know what to do?" But I did as I was told, dropped the leash and said "get him" and she ran down at him jumped into the air and bit that sleeve so hard that he was able to swing her around off the ground and put her down gently. I was amazed. He had her do that twice that day. His comment was "this bitch can bite."  Minka knew instinctively what to do. And this was mainly just a test to she what she would do.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes- i'm contemplating it but not sure how serious I am about that...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Even if it is genetic (which I believe) the "gamble" element is still physical things you just can't tell until they are older. The things like retrieve, hunt, fearlessness, were all there at 8 weeks....at least looked like to me..... The hips, possibility of allergies, orthopedic issues, etc were not as discernable though I have heard there is an age at which adult structure can be properly ascertained.

What ARE the things you can predict reliabily in a young pup and the things you cannot? That would make it more helpful to me.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I owned a BC for about a year, the athletic ability compared to a GSD will blow your mind (That being said I will still never own another one, just so not my breed.)


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

jocoyn said:


> Even if it is genetic (which I believe) the "gamble" element is still physical things you just can't tell until they are older. The things like retrieve, hunt, fearlessness, were all there at 8 weeks....at least looked like to me..... The hips, possibility of allergies, orthopedic issues, etc were not as discernable though I have heard there is an age at which adult structure can be properly ascertained.
> 
> What ARE the things you can predict reliabily in a young pup and the things you cannot? That would make it more helpful to me.


Hunt drive and environmental nerves. Desire to retrieve isn't always there at that young age. Sound and pain sensitivity and resilience. Food drive. Grip and prey drive some times. At testing Deja was more interested in exploring than playing with a toy or rag. A really good tester can see a tendency towards social aggression at 7 weeks.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I have heard that structure at 7 weeks will give you a good idea of what the general structure will be as an adult. I would think you would certainly need to have a "trained eye" to be able to see this though. I personally am terrible at looking at structure in puppies. 


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to answer this " you ever hear the breeder didn't have a
pup that's a match for me" speaking for myself the answer is YES -- often refer people to another litter , or another individual pup , or even to another breeder- not specifically just tell them I don't have what they are looking for.
to this "Some dogs will do things just for the sake of it, and are born that way. Some dogs don't need to be taught the motivation to do the work, whether it be agility, herding, Schutzhund, etc. If you want to do really well at one thing, why not buy a dog that is born to do it? " 100% true .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good post Lisa! 
No dog comes out ready to bite the sleeve, this is just an expression....but just like you can breed for pets that have barely any drive, you can breed for over the top prey which will result in high percent of dogs born ready to bite the sleeve...lol......hope that makes sense. Hopefully nobody is breeding for people's individual wants because that's how the breed got plucked up in the first place.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

All dogs are a crap shoot.....because the environmental influences will play into the dogs ability and trainability. 

That being said, getting a puppy from a breeder who has been sucessful at producing working dogs - in many venues - will load the dice to get you what you want.

I had a pup in my "C" litter - the pup was a monkey....he would scale the walls of the puppy pen, climb over and upwards on storage boxes and end up on top of the washing machine or halfway up blocked stairway.....he went to a SAR home, and ended up as a State Trooper - who is a successful narcotics, border patrol, SAR dog...one who at 2 years old tested by a German judge/LE officer-trainer who scoffed at the notion that the dog did not have bitework training. He hadn't, he was genetically capable and strong.....

A stable, balanced pup should be able to be trained in most any sport. And, if your interest so lies, dual titled.....IPO, agility, flyball, dock dogs, AKC OB....Willy, you have seen IPO3 dogs of my breeding doing flyball...the dog who is agility titled should have been IPO trained - she would have excelled at it...have played at agility with several and all take to it like ducks to water...yet these are dogs who are strong in IPO sport too....herding - although none titled before I sent Kira to Meghan, I was pretty sure because of demonstrated ability/instinct and pedigree that she would be suitable...for IPO as well as herding....

One key is finding a puppy whose breeder understands their lines, is consistant with using elements within pedigrees and who is producing solid, stable dogs - the rest is up to you to accomplish...you get only the raw material from a breeder.

If you want an *absolute guarantee*, then get a dog who is already doing a sport, is health tested and spend time bonding with him.

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> But if for example he doesn't "cap" well you will not have a consistent start line, consistent contacts and will have a hard time with collection, tight turns etc. I think that an ability to "cap" for example is largely a genetic trait that is vital to being highly competitive.


Totally agree, never said otherwise. A dog that can't cap is faulty temperament, IMO. A hectic dog that can't think can be a nightmare to train. I'm not trying to debate the specifics of the agility obstacles (I do agility too so this is not new to me) but that much of what Willy is probably looking for in a dog *is* genetic; whether he wants to do agility or Schutzhund or SAR or PPD with his next GSD doesn't matter, whatever sport he chooses means there are things one can look for in the genetics of the dog. When I buy my dogs I do not just pick breeders I like or am friends with and think "oh it's a GSD so it will automatically be good at anything." No, I pick breeders that are actually have dogs doing what I want to do with their dogs and prove to me that their lines are genetically inclined to enjoy the type of training I'm interested in. You can't just look at the dog in front of you because if you're looking at a puppy a lot of things aren't developed yet. I bought a dog that was going to be a higher drive dog with high prey drive as indicated by the pedigree and the breeder's knowledge of the lines. The dog's prey drive literally turned on overnight around 7 months of age but if I'd ignored the dog's genetics and simply selected the puppy I would have chosen wrong.


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## Checker (Sep 28, 2012)

how old is a german shepherd when fully grown in size


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

lhczth said:


> Believe me, Marcia never had to motivate Navarre to run agility. HE LOVED it and still does. Next to bitework it is his favorite things to do.


Lisa- I missed this. If you happen to have any video of Navarre doing agility, can you PM them to me. Nice pictures of him on your website!


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Wildo- You might laugh, but Max has really taken to his agility training. He charges thru the tunnel, leaps on the pause table, downs immediately (yep!) , starting to weave..and he loves it. He is jumping nicely, planning his distances. The person helping me said "Man, I just love working-line dogs..they love to work! "


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

with training and socializing we tell the dog what to tell.



Chris Wild said:


> As the saying goes "pedigree says what a dog should be, the dog tells you who he IS".


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You cannot train and socialize the right drives or nerve into a dog. You can make the most of what you got but if it is not there you cannot put it there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

right on wolfstraum and Liesje -- 

" but that much of what Willy is probably looking for in a dog *is* genetic; whether he wants to do agility or Schutzhund or SAR or PPD with his next GSD doesn't matter, whatever sport he chooses means there are things one can look for in the genetics of the dog"

and those things would be confidence , environmental security , a natural physicality - athleticism , natural co-ordination, balanced structure (not extremes) , good muscle development , and a boldness coupled with directability .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Willy, I don't seem to have any of Navarre running agility, unfortunately.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Totally agree, never said otherwise. A dog that can't cap is faulty temperament, IMO. A hectic dog that can't think can be a nightmare to train. I'm not trying to debate the specifics of the agility obstacles (I do agility too so this is not new to me) but that much of what Willy is probably looking for in a dog *is* genetic; whether he wants to do agility or Schutzhund or SAR or PPD with his next GSD doesn't matter, whatever sport he chooses means there are things one can look for in the genetics of the dog. When I buy my dogs I do not just pick breeders I like or am friends with and think "oh it's a GSD so it will automatically be good at anything." No, I pick breeders that are actually have dogs doing what I want to do with their dogs and prove to me that their lines are genetically inclined to enjoy the type of training I'm interested in. You can't just look at the dog in front of you because if you're looking at a puppy a lot of things aren't developed yet. I bought a dog that was going to be a higher drive dog with high prey drive as indicated by the pedigree and the breeder's knowledge of the lines. The dog's prey drive literally turned on overnight around 7 months of age but if I'd ignored the dog's genetics and simply selected the puppy I would have chosen wrong.


Agree, I think where it becomes a gamble is the health. Seems to me that a lot of dogs have great temperaments for what they need to do but have bad hips, or digestive issues or back problems and the list goes on....I just think that it is tough to find the "whole package" in a puppy. For me personally, thinking ahead to the possibility of a GSD for another (highly competitive) agility dog the gamble has nothing to do with working ability but this to me is a breed that generally is not all that healthy and lacks in the athletic ability to be highly competitive in that particular sport. Not saying that other breeds don't have the same issues, for example if I was to look at mals I would be far more concerned about overall temperament and would feel more confident in being able to find a healthy, athletic dog. It really is a toss up no matter what breed, its a good thing that we love our dogs even if they aren't the "whole package."


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

-- adding longevity - here is Allycia UD


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There is always a risk as far as health - nothing is guaranteed - but I think with good research you can minimize that risk. What bugs me is when someone complains that they "paid a lot of money for a top quality dog from a top breeder and now it has HD and EPI" but then you ask if they researched the pedigree, looked into the health of other progeny from those dogs, prioritized getting a dog from a repeat breeding where the first litter was known to be healthy, etc and the answer is no, they just assumed if you pay a lot of money and someone tells you they are a top breeder with top dogs then that's what you get. If health is someone's top priority then I would expect a lot of research going into that when considering various lines and how they produce when combined and not just taking someone's word for it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what I attempted to show was a female dog "carmspack Allycia UD" at 14 playing at the lake with much younger golden retrievers - all field trial dogs . Still mentally and physically all there , looks like an 8 year old . I'll have to have a Jr member of the family figure out some picture posting.


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