# Coyote Problem



## jwolf8604 (Aug 19, 2015)

So my little pup is almost 8 mos old and is 50 lbs. We live in South Texas and although we are in the San Antonio city limits, we have a known coyote problem on our side of town. I've heard them at night on only two occasions but it wasn't concerning to me because they were a little in the distance and I was outside with our pup and inside of our wooden privacy fence. However, we like to walk our pup through the neighborhood in the morning and I've always had a little concern cause it's usually 5am and still dark. To further the problem, I walk her with a prong collar to keep her from pulling so if we ever got into a hairy situation I'd have to release her collar and hope that she could avoid the situation and not try to go after the coyote (I wouldn't want her defending me or herself with a prong collar on).

This morning, for the very first time in 3 months living at our new place, I saw a coyote in the neighborhood trotting down the road. This terrified me because I know often there is more than one and while it avoided me and my car, I'm not sure it would avoid me walking with a dog.

Any thoughts on this? My biggest question is do Coyote's frequently attack dogs that are larger than they are? I know they will kill a cat or small dog in a heartbeat and I'd hate to risk it, but does anyone out there have any experience with Coyote behavior?


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Small caliber handgun would be my weapon of choice. When we lived in Southern California the Coyotes would make a run through the neighborhood once a month or so in search of rabbits, possums and the unlucky cat. Yes, there were reports of them taking small dogs. There was one report that the coyote jumped the chain link fence into a backyard where the coyote grabbed a small dog and jumped back over the fence small dog and all. The dog was never found.
I think you may find that more than one coyote may attack a larger dog and they have made attacks on kids. They are not to be screwed around with. If they pose a threat I say whack em and report the location to Animal Control or law enforcement. Hopefully they can recover the animal and see if it was rabid or suffering from some other ailment.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I've encountered coyotes many times while walking adult dogs - no negative experiences for me... they've stopped and stared, continued on their way, or even scurried off if the dogs alerted to them. I have however seen small dogs and their owners harassed while on walks.... I've known small unattended dogs and cats to be killed. never a large dog unless it was lured away by a single coyote then attacked by the group - I've heard of these accounts alot but not by a verifiable / first hand source.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Generally, coyotes will go after what they consider to be "easy prey."

Small pets (including dogs), rodents, rabbits, weak/old larger game like deer, ect.

However, they have been known to team up into small packs (usually 4-5, centered around a mating pair) and take on larger animals, kind of filling in the roles that the cougar and wolves have left vacant in most of the eastern and middle North America.

And there have been stories/reports of them teaming up and taking on larger, somewhat more capable dog breeds, even some dedicated livestock guardian dogs (LGD's). A quick google search should turn up some stories for you to read.

2 effective long-term solutions for dealing with them:
1) If it's legal, hunt them. Most states have fairly relaxed regulations on coyote hunting, since their numbers have increased greatly throughout much of the US. Set up a hide/position, and call/lure them in with coyote or distressed prey noises. Also, some hunters use dedicated lure dogs to attract the coyotes (coyotes are naturally curious and will play, fight, or sometimes do both with dogs) and then take them out when they are distracted.
2) Get some bigger and protective LGD's (Akbash, Great Pyrenees, Turkish Kangal or Caucasian Shepherd) and/or add a high-prey GSD to your pack. They key to either approach is making sure your dog isn't outgunner and outmanned. Coyotes are very smart hunters, and while one-on-one they probably won't try to take on a GSD or larger LGD, as a pack they will try to wear it out and overwhelm it (which is probably how they have killed larger dogs in the past). However, a fight against 2-3 larger dogs, with good prey drives or protective instincts is a fight that most Coyotes won't want to risk (they're opportunistic hunters, not brawlers).

The only thing that will deter a coyote pack from prowling/hunting your area is death or a larger pack/predator that causes them to look elsewhere for easier pickings.

Short-term: carry some pepper spray, a knife, maybe even a sidearm (if you're comfortable with carrying one), to break up a potential fight or predatory attack. Coyotes running down the middle of a neighborhood street does indicate extreme confidence and familiarity with humans on the coyote's part and you should definitely be on guard when walking your dog (I certainly wouldn't let him out by himself while he is still young).


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

We've had a coyote encounter or three while out walking in the early morning...the coyotes seem to keep their distance, flee or at most follow at a distance and just observe. When my bitch is in heat, I tend to delay the early walks until a bit later....don't know if she is more of a lure while in heat but it would seem to make sense. I know a couple dogs have been killed by coyotes in our neighborhood but they were small dogs and in their backyard unattended.....coyotes didn't eat them or take them...just killed them...I guess it eliminates potential competition for the prey resources available......more food for the coyotes.

And my experience has been a chain link fence is nothing for a coyote to jump over....I see their tracks and crap in my fenced in yard with regularity..they are pursuing the abundance of rabbits in people's yards...I'll see some patches of rabbit fur and blood at times....not as often as the tracks and crap however. My yard just seems to be on their regular hunting route during the winter months.

I'm not sure what the issue would be regarding the removal of the prong collar ??? I'm guessing if you let your dog go and it chased the coyote, it might be the wrong choice if the coyotes are determined to eliminate any of their competition in your area. I've had a coyote cross in front of me ( 20 yards or so ) with my dog on a long line and the coyote wanted nothing to do with us....I believe we surprised the coyote and these suburban coyotes seem a bit bolder than ones more isolated but...a human and a larger breed dog is not something a coyote would view as easy pickings by any means.

I believe Fodder's reply regarding the luring away of a bigger dog to an awaiting group of multiple coyotes may have some truth to it....hence I'd be reluctant to release my dog from my control.

My plan, if a coyote came too close to my dog and me while out for a walk would be, to be large and loud.

I do keep a "weapon" or two at the ready just in case I let the dog out into the backyard during the evening or early morning and an overzealous coyote(s) might mess with my dog but I have yet to cross that bridge. When she is in heat, I always attend her when I let her out.

SuperG


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

I would NOT worry if I were you! Particularly if you have your dog on leash or close to you. Me and my dogs have encountered hundreds of coyotes over the past couple years. I used to go out hiking in the evening until dark and we saw at least 2 per day on average. We even have an enormous one (at least 70lbs!, Bigger than my dogs) in the area who isn't incredibly shy. He'll continue to hangout in his field when I walk my dogs thorough, catching gophers. Never an issue. 
We do have one odd pair that will act aggressively and charge at dogs in a certain area of the trails that is near the trailhead... they have never injured or made physical contact with a dog, but its not fun to encounter them. I avoid hiking in their area in the evening now. But out of hundreds of coyote encounters this is the only one we've had any kind of issue with.
If the dog is with you and especially on leash, it would be very very rare for a coyote to attack. The worry would be more if you let your pup roam unattended outside.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

5 am. is prime time for coyotes. I would pick another time to walk the dog. You really can't hunt them down to elimination. More just fill the space and the ones that come may be worse than the ones that were hunted....

I lived outside of Kingsville for a few years and we had the Javelina and the Coyotes and the Rattlesnakes. Javelina gored my wolf/shepherd in the neck with a tusk and he almost died from the nasty infection. I was walking down a farm road one night and a group of 5 coyotes followed me for about a quarter mile. A group of angry horses came up to the fenceline and chased them off. I was caught in the middle for a few seconds and it was pretty intense. The horses were rearing up and I thought they were going to take the fence out and trample me or they smelled my entourage of coyote and thought I was a bad thing too. 

I think I would carry a can of the Marine Air Horn whenever walking my dog down there. That should send them running.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

SuperG said:


> We've had a coyote encounter or three while out walking in the early morning...the coyotes seem to keep their distance, flee or at most follow at a distance and just observe. When my bitch is in heat, I tend to delay the early walks until a bit later....don't know if she is more of a lure while in heat but it would seem to make sense. I know a couple dogs have been killed by coyotes in our neighborhood but they were small dogs and in their backyard unattended.....coyotes didn't eat them or take them...just killed them...I guess it eliminates potential competition for the prey resources available......more food for the coyotes.
> 
> And my experience has been a chain link fence is nothing for a coyote to jump over....I see their tracks and crap in my fenced in yard with regularity..they are pursuing the abundance of rabbits in people's yards...I'll see some patches of rabbit fur and blood at times....not as often as the tracks and crap however. My yard just seems to be on their regular hunting route during the winter months.
> 
> ...


I'd heard this was an issue in the suburbs. I've also heard more than one person talk about the luring tactic. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be an issue in the city (yet?). I don't think my dog would be considered an easy target, but I'd still rather not have an encounter.

I think that would be the only time I could imagine wishing for a gun, if I was living in a more remote area and regularly went out with my dog.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

My experience living in So. Cal. with coyotes in the neighborhood was similar to what others have posted: they're opportunistic cowards that avoid big dogs, but will prey on small dogs and cats.

The only thing I would add is that you have to _always _keep in mind that they are reservoirs for disease: distemper, parvo, lepto, and rabies. That ought to influence how you choose to vaccinate.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Having almost been shot myself while in residential areas I do not suggest a gun as the OP lives inside of San Antonio city limits, which sounds like a urban/suburban type neighborhood setting.

Quickly moving small-ish target in the dark at 5 AM. You can't call back a stray bullet.

Plenty of other options as coyotes tend to prefer easy targets. As long as people aren't feeding them and habituating then to human contact large stick, loud voice, loud whistle or the marine air horn like SV suggests.

Just make sure to desensitize your pup to those sounds.



RZZNSTR said:


> Small caliber handgun would be my weapon of choice. When we lived in Southern California the Coyotes would make a run through the neighborhood once a month or so in search of rabbits, possums and the unlucky cat. Yes, there were reports of them taking small dogs. There was one report that the coyote jumped the chain link fence into a backyard where the coyote grabbed a small dog and jumped back over the fence small dog and all. The dog was never found.
> I think you may find that more than one coyote may attack a larger dog and they have made attacks on kids. They are not to be screwed around with. If they pose a threat I say whack em and report the location to Animal Control or law enforcement. Hopefully they can recover the animal and see if it was rabid or suffering from some other ailment.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> 5 am. is prime time for coyotes. I would pick another time to walk the dog. *You really can't hunt them down to elimination. More just fill the space and the ones that come may be worse than the ones that were hunted....*


False. You can hunt any species down to elimination. That's how cougar and wolves, which once ranged across the entire North American continent have now been reduced to the Northwest and other small geographic pockets.

In fact, the main reason why the population has gotten so large is because of a lack of hunting and competition within their ecosystem. Deer population has skyrocketed (due to lack of natural predators and increased farmlands) and severe reduction of wolf, cougar, brown bear populations mean that coyotes have few competitors/threats to check their numbers.

Of course, I'm not advocating a genocide against coyotes. They have their place in the environment. But when hunted, by large numbers of hunters (natural and human), their numbers will decrease. The main issue is that most human hunters have little incentive to go after coyote since their pelts aren't worth a whole lot and they provide little meat (relative to other game). Too much hassle for too little of a reward.



Stonevintage said:


> I think I would carry a can of the Marine Air Horn whenever walking my dog down there. That should send them running.


Not a bad back-up measure, but I wouldn't rely on it as your only means of defense. There are some coyotes that have become desensitized to humans and have gone after pets in broad daylight.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Also, in live in a semi-rural suburban area and I've seen coyotes on multiple occasions trotting down our neighborhood street at night.

I agree with others who note they aren't super aggressive by nature. Sure some outliers, maybe if one has rabies but then that's the same with raccoons and fox. Always be wary of animals acting unusually aggressive.

I've found them to be very wary and quick to run at noises. In fact nuisance animal control often involves making very loud frightening noises to teach the animals this is an unpleasant unsafe territory and they move on.

I think the most important thing is like with bear control parameters, work to reduce feeding opportunity with covered trash containers, keep small pets inside at night, keep rodent populations under control, keep vacant lots cleaned up and mowed. Stuff like that in the urban/suburban settings would go a long way to discourage coyotes.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

When I lived in San Diego, I had Leyna and Levi (about 4yrs old at the time) and my friend had her less than a year old GSD. They were off leash on a field but close by. We had two coyotes stalk us from behind. Levi chased one off and the other continued to come at us (two dogs, two humans). Levi came back (probably only 60 seconds later, but felt like a year - he never left my site since it was a big open field). Eventually the coyotes ran off.

I hear and see them a lot where I am now. I had one try to get Paisley to "play" with him. I was not buying that.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Having almost been shot myself while in residential areas I do not suggest a gun as the OP lives inside of San Antonio city limits, which sounds like a urban/suburban type neighborhood setting.
> 
> Quickly moving small-ish target in the dark at 5 AM. You can't call back a stray bullet.
> 
> ...


A gun is a worst case option....it shouldn't be used in self-defense unless there are no other options and it should only be used in a way that doesn't endanger nearby people ('know your target and what lies beyond' is one of the basic firearms safety rules).

So obviously carrying and using a firearm requires discretion on the owner's part; that should go without saying nowadays.

That said, others have brought up good 1st step measures: pepper spray, waving your arms and yelling, air horn, a large stick or baseball bat, knife, ect.

A wild coyote is not inclined to go after a full-grown human, though there have been incidents where healthy coyotes did just that, albeit they are rare. So any posturing, or use of force, being suggested is to help the owner protect his/her dog from a coyote attack (which is a not uncommon occurrence).


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Considering the hour and location, I'd go with pepper spray or someone mentioned hornet spray which is easily found would be a effective and safe solution


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> False. You can hunt any species down to elimination. That's how cougar and wolves, which once ranged across the entire North American continent have now been reduced to the Northwest and other small geographic pockets.
> 
> Dalko - The OP can walk around on the moon too but the likelihood is probably as slim. No need to try to refute my statement. It's my opinion and if you don't like it - too bad so sad.:laugh:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I wish. But...Now that's funny right there, I don't care who ya are!! Here hold my beer an watch this!  




Dalko43 said:


> A gun is a worst case option....it shouldn't be used in self-defense unless there are no other options and it should only be used in a way that doesn't endanger nearby people ('know your target and what lies beyond' is one of the basic firearms safety rules).
> 
> So obviously carrying and using a firearm requires discretion on the owner's part; *that should go without saying nowadays*.
> 
> ...


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Dalko43 said:
> 
> 
> > False. You can hunt any species down to elimination. That's how cougar and wolves, which once ranged across the entire North American continent have now been reduced to the Northwest and other small geographic pockets.
> ...


I gave an opinion too, an opinion that has been validated by many state-sponsored wildlife studies.

Lack of natural predation and increased farmlands have enabled certain populations (coyote and deer included) to increase significantly; over-population of deer has led to increased occurrences of disease and famine in the environment and depletion of certain native fauna. So far, the affects of an unchecked coyote population haven't adversely affected the environment to the same degree, but give it time.

Any ecosystem needs balance. Coyotes running around suburban neighborhoods is a strong indication that their numbers are starting to outgrow what the natural environment is capable of supporting or that humans are moving into coyote habitat (probably a combination of both).

So, no skin off my back if you disagree with all that. The studies and reports talking about all this stuff are out there for anyone to read.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> I gave an opinion too, an opinion that has been validated by many state-sponsored wildlife studies.
> 
> Lack of natural predation and increased farmlands have enabled certain populations (coyote and deer included) to increase significantly; over-population of deer has led to increased occurrences of disease and famine in the environment and depletion of certain native fauna. So far, the affects of an unchecked coyote population haven't adversely affected the environment to the same degree, but give it time.
> 
> ...


Why not stick to giving the OP your opinion rather then giving your opinion on my opinion? You call my opinion False and then state your opinion. I will not give my opinion of your opinion because it's merely your opinion. You certainly have a right to give your opinion without harassment, as do others....GET IT YET?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SuperG said:


> I believe Fodder's reply regarding the luring away of a bigger dog to an awaiting group of multiple coyotes may have some truth to it....hence I'd be reluctant to release my dog from my control.


Same here. Close by, and under my control on leash I believe would be MUCH safer. If you let your dog off leash and she chases, you've totally lost control of the situation. I would think a single coyote would be less likely to attack you and your dog together. 

Shooting off a gun in a neighborhood full of homes does not sound like a very good idea. Not to mention the possibility of shooting your own dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Coyotes are more of a lone creature, unlike Wolves that are more of a pack. If they are hungry enough they do come together and hunt together or lure dogs out to others. We are seeing more groups of coyotes here and it's believed they are coywolves, which is coyote/wolf mixes. They are bigger and are found in packs. I have never seen the smaller more obvious coyotes in groups where I am. It's always one at a time, but I've heard them in groups and it's usually the mom and the little ones in that case. 

I carry pepper spray if I'm walking a weaker dog(one that has just had surgery, etc) because I think that coyotes can and will attack what they think is weaker. If I have a healthy dog I do not carry anything as of now. Last week my son was walking my youngest golden, something was there and thd golden refused to continue that way, my son did not make him, he went with what the golden obviously sensed and went the other way.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The big concern with coyotes (& raccoons) I think is to watch out for the one that just isn't acting right (possible rabies). If you see that - Leave the area immediately, report it to proper authorities. We ended up reporting the one that followed us in Tahoe. Middle of the day following us down a paved road. 

I had two follow me one night in the Keys. I threw a rock at them and they vanished back into the brush.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

I recently came across something called Coyote Rollers that are placed at the top of fencing, and prevent coyotes from getting in. Worth looking into for those with fenced backyards. Should be fairly easy to make yourself, too.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Where I live we have coyotes, rabbits, voles, mule deer. I find coyote tracks in the horse turn-out (3 - 4 acres) where the dogs do not go. No coyote tracks in the other part of the property where the dogs are often loose. It is common to hear coyotes at night, too. Fortunately, no cougar tracks have been seen on my property. I suspect that both cougars and coyotes are feeling pressure from the reintroduction of wolves.

Coyotes are one of the most adaptable species and very oprotunistic. It is best not to feed cats and dogs outside, especially not to leave food out. They do help with rodent control (no vole tunnels in the horse turnout but plenty in the other section of property) big time. 

When riding in the Willamette Valley, a friend and I with our two dogs had a coyote follow us. He was curious, he wasn't looking for dinner - just curious as to who we were and what we were doing. 

There are stories about coyotes luring dogs away to be attacked by a larger group of coyotes. (Norman McClean, "U.S. Forest Service 1919". ) There have been news reports of coyotes attacking small dogs and cats. (given the internet, who knows how substantiated these are). Here, they are more apt to be picked up by an owl or hawk.
I've lived and traveled throughout the west and never had a problem with coyotes harrassing me or my dogs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

yuriy said:


> I recently came across something called Coyote Rollers that are placed at the top of fencing, and prevent coyotes from getting in. Worth looking into for those with fenced backyards. Should be fairly easy to make yourself, too.


Those should be able to keep dogs in too. I was looking at the home made version a few months ago. A big and small PVC pipe. Great idea!


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## GreenCo (Sep 26, 2013)

My morning walks are an hour every morning and we leave the house just before 5am and usually. I'm in Southern Ontario, Canada, in city limits of a medium sized town and we have loads of Coyete. I encounter them at least 1-2 a week over for the past 3 years. I have never once had an issue or felt threatened in any way. Mind you, my two GSD's and they are on leash and with me. The Coyote's usually stop and stair at us for a few seconds, before going on there way. Never once have they tried to get closer. This is walking with a male and female GSD. We also have had reporting sightings of Coywolf in the city as well, I can't confirm if I've ever seen one. I've seen some large Coyote so maybe that's what they were. Never once a problem. If my dogs were off leash though, that would be a problem. They would likely pursue them. I've never seen just one on its own, always in pairs, or 3.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Gun all the way. Only use it at point blank range, it doesn't matter if it is dark or not. You are not hunting from 100 yards away. It would be stupid (don't think the OP would do this) to shoot at something that isn't bothering your dog. Your dog is on leash, if the yote gets close enough to attack your dog, you are close enough to make a kill shot. You are in TX, where it is still legal to defend yourself and your property (luck you).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

eddie1976E said:


> Gun all the way. Only use it at point blank range, it doesn't matter if it is dark or not. You are not hunting from 100 yards away. It would be stupid (don't think the OP would do this) to shoot at something that isn't bothering your dog. Your dog is on leash, if the yote gets close enough to attack your dog, you are close enough to make a kill shot. You are in TX, where it is still legal to defend yourself and your property (luck you).


I think these rules apply on private property only in Texas, no?


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I think these rules apply on private property only in Texas, no?


If a wild animal is attacking you or your pet, I would think you would be in the clear.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Then I'd go big....maybe a M72 LAW rocket.

SuperG


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

eddie1976E said:


> If a wild animal is attacking you or your pet, I would think you would be in the clear.


Hunters should be familiar with local ordinances restricting the discharge of a firearm within city limits. Additionally, state law prohibits the discharging of a firearm across or on a public roadway, even if livestock animals are under attack from a coyote.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Then I'd go big....maybe a M72 LAW rocket.
> 
> SuperG


Personally, I'd get an APC to drive my dog around rather than risk stepping foot into the great outdoors.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> The big concern with coyotes (& raccoons) I think is to watch out for the one that just isn't acting right (possible rabies). If you see that - Leave the area immediately, report it to proper authorities. We ended up reporting the one that followed us in Tahoe. Middle of the day following us down a paved road.
> 
> I had two follow me one night in the Keys. I threw a rock at them and they vanished back into the brush.


Yep, this raccoon tested positive for rabies. The poor little kid
6-year-old boy attacked by raccoon in Elmwood Park, New Jersey | abc7chicago.com


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Hunters should be familiar with local ordinances restricting the discharge of a firearm within city limits. Additionally, state law prohibits the discharging of a firearm across or on a public roadway, even if livestock animals are under attack from a coyote.


Those are hunting regulations, not the same as those laws which pertain to self-defense. Also, don't think a pet would be considered livestock for legal purposes.

With that said, discharging a firearm to protect yourself or your dog from a coyote is very unlikely, given the nature of coyotes and their interaction with humans. There are plenty of other mitigating measures that can/should be adopted prior to using a firearm. A firearm is a last resort, and if it is used, its incumbent upon the user to be judicious about where he is aiming/shooting.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Officials: Aggressive coyotes may be high on shrooms | News - KXLY.com

do you think pepper spray or an air horn will work these coyotes?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Y'all are just amazing! I've had coyotes off and on for the last 40+ years (probablylonger and I just didn't know it). Never a problem. Never.

Also, coyotes vary in size quite a bit. A very large coyote can still be 100% coyote. Rather like different breeds of dogs. 

I'd be concerned if a cougar started coming around my funky 5 acre minimum "subdivision". Coyotes - nope.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Officials: Aggressive coyotes may be high on shrooms | News - KXLY.com
> 
> do you think pepper spray or an air horn will work these coyotes?


No, but if you offer a friendly place to crash for the duration of their trip and a couch with lots of psychedelic posters and stuff, that might work.....


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No, but if you offer a friendly place to crash for the duration of their trip and a couch with lots of psychedelic posters and stuff, that might work.....


:spittingcoffee:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

middleofnowhere said:


> Y'all are just amazing! I've had coyotes off and on for the last 40+ years (probablylonger and I just didn't know it). Never a problem. Never.
> 
> Also, coyotes vary in size quite a bit. A very large coyote can still be 100% coyote. Rather like different breeds of dogs.
> 
> I'd be concerned if a cougar started coming around my funky 5 acre minimum "subdivision". Coyotes - nope.


Cougars? Here's 5, one for each of your acres! Lol
Cougar Family Out for a Stroll Captured with Washington Trail Camera - Wide Open Spaces


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> Y'all are just amazing! I've had coyotes off and on for the last 40+ years (probablylonger and I just didn't know it). Never a problem. Never.
> 
> Also, coyotes vary in size quite a bit. A very large coyote can still be 100% coyote. Rather like different breeds of dogs.
> 
> I'd be concerned if a cougar started coming around my funky 5 acre minimum "subdivision". Coyotes - nope.


I actually love watching them(coyotes). I catch them playing in the middle of fields all the time. Usually they are chasing something blowing in the wind like a leaf(much like a dog). One time one crossed in front of us as we were driving and Midnite looked at me like hey did you see that?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hey! That's in our backyard Love it. We've got plenty of prey for a Momma with 4 to feed and train. We are being over run with deer here in our city.

Nice to see an area with a healthy balance and this is a good indicator.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

There are a crap load of Cougars in eastern Washington. There are some trail cam pics posted of 8 Cougars gathered together around Newman lake from last year I believe.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

middleofnowhere said:


> Y'all are just amazing! I've had coyotes off and on for the last 40+ years (probablylonger and I just didn't know it). Never a problem. Never.
> 
> Also, coyotes vary in size quite a bit. A very large coyote can still be 100% coyote. Rather like different breeds of dogs.
> 
> I'd be concerned if a cougar started coming around my funky 5 acre minimum "subdivision". Coyotes - nope.


:thumbup:

I'm pretty surprised to see how worried people are about coyotes on here!? There are SO many here in my area and a lot of people just let their dogs chase them when they see them (pretty much everyone walks their dogs off leash here and almost no one has anywhere near a reliable recall so it happens a lot lol). No one has ever had an issue with coyotes here. (besides that one pair I mentioned being obnoxious... but they have never caused harm) No one worries about them. Of course its not wise to let your dog chase them imo or be outside unattended around them just to be safe... 

Just yesterday, me and my dogs shared our favorite field with a coyote. My german shepherd was off leash and I had him keep a polite distance, the coyote did the same. No big deal lol  The enormous 70b-ish huge chubby coyote that lives in our area also gets no worries from anyone. Its fun to watch him catching dozens of field mice while my dogs play a good distance away from him. 

Most are a lot more shy though, we see them on pretty much a daily basis, but I would almost never notice them if my GSD didn't point them out.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

Nigel said:


> There are a crap load of Cougars in eastern Washington. There are some trail cam pics posted of 8 Cougars gathered together around Newman lake from last year I believe.


Wow!! Im kinda jealous! I've seen one once I'n my area, way out in the woods... happened to look up and see one in a tree branch above my head when I was all alone... So not such an ideal circumstance... but I'll take what I can get! They are so rare to see here. Although I'd rather come across one when I didn't have my dogs incase the dogs decided to do something stupid lol


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykaios said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> The enormous 70b-ish huge chubby coyote that lives in our area also gets no worries from anyone. Its fun to watch him catching dozens of field mice while my dogs play a good distance away from him.


What part of the world are you in?


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

Small town in Northern California lol


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

What you are seeing is a hybrid. Shhh. Don't tell anyone or it will be dead in a week. Enjoy what you are witnessing.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Lykaios said:


> a lot of people just let their dogs chase them when they see them (pretty much everyone walks their dogs off leash here and almost no one has anywhere near a reliable recall so it happens a lot lol).


Some coyotes are known to act as bait and "run" from a dog only to lure it towards a larger pack of coyotes that then take the dog down together. Bad idea to let dogs chase them, even when they're seemingly alone. Coyotes are smarter than the average dog owner.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

yuriy said:


> Some coyotes are known to act as bait and "run" from a dog only to lure it towards a larger pack of coyotes that then take the dog down together. Bad idea to let dogs chase them, even when they're seemingly alone. Coyotes are smarter than the average dog owner.


This goes back to my earlier post about killing off a local group of coyotes. You may not like the coyotes that come in to replace that "free" niche in the food chain. 

You see the diversity between your posts and yuriy's. There is that diversity in human conflict (or not) with the wiley coyote...

Did you know that there is no wolf or coyote left in the wild that does not have at least 2% domestic dog in it's genetics? There are different "temperaments" in our wild canine species and through time/evolution there are different interactions with humans. The "Beverly Hills" coyote is a good example. Lives amongst the estates... drinks and cools off in their pools. Fine dining every night - no need to hunt anything....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Coyotes kill small dogs here all the time. They snag them right from the owners. There is warnings everywhere about it. Yorkies a seem to be the ones I here of most often.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I lived in the foothills of the Sandia Mountains in New Mexico for 3 years and saw coyotes and wild dogs frequently. I had heard stories of coyotes luring dogs, etc., but they never bothered my dogs and I, even when Chama was a tiny puppy.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Coyotes kill small dogs here all the time. They snag them right from the owners. There is warnings everywhere about it. Yorkies a seem to be the ones I here of most often.


I hate to say this but maybe it's just to shut those darn yorkies up! I have never met a more consistent yappy breed of dog in my life! What are they yelling about all the time?


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> What you are seeing is a hybrid. Shhh. Don't tell anyone or it will be dead in a week. Enjoy what you are witnessing.


It may be some kind of coyote hybrid (definitely not a wolfdog if thats what you mean). But its not unheard of for coyotes to get that large... (particularly since he is a fatty) Nobody here would care if he was a hybrid anyways. He is wild and he has been around for years apparently. Its not hard to see why he is on the big/chubby side though, watching how many gophers and field mice he scarfs down in an hour.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lykaios said:


> It may be some kind of coyote hybrid (definitely not a wolfdog if thats what you mean). But its not unheard of for coyotes to get that large... (particularly since he is a fatty) Nobody here would care if he was a hybrid anyways. He is wild and he has been around for years apparently. Its not hard to see why he is on the big/chubby side though, watching how many gophers and field mice he scarfs down in an hour.


Could be Coy/Wolf could be Coy/Dog. Why would you say definitely not a wolf/dog? or a coy/wolf?

Surely you followed the tracking adventures of I think it was Oregon wolf OR7 tracked from Oregon and down into NoCal. Many photos on the internet of the summer OR7 spent in your area with a pack of coyotes. 

NoCal has since (known) July 2015 been home to it's first pack of wolves since 1924.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Could be Coy/Wolf could be Coy/Dog. Why would you say definitely not a wolf/dog? or a coy/wolf?
> 
> Surely you followed the tracking adventures of I think it was Oregon wolf OR7 tracked from Oregon and down into NoCal. Many photos on the internet of the summer OR7 spent in your area with a pack of coyotes.
> 
> NoCal has since (known) July 2015 been home to it's first pack of wolves since 1924.


Yes, its pretty big news when a wolf or wolf pack enters California... Which is why it would be pretty rare to see a coydog here. Its rare enough to have a wolf in the area, and relatively rare for wolves to even mate with coyotes. Where I I've is more of a small mountain that is very forested, unpopulated, and wildlife friendly, but surrounded by civilization. So not a likely place for wolves to end up. 

He basically looks exactly like a coyote, only chubby and larger than normal. And I can say with confidence that he's not a wolf/dog because I have a decent amount of knowledge and experience with them. He's got distinctive coyote features and body type that a wolf/dog wouldn't have. I'd be more open to the coy wolf if I wasn't in an area thats extremely unlikely to have wolves around.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The only reason I was asking is there were many photos of the Summer of 2011 when wolf OR7 lived with a coyote pack - around Susanville, I think. I was just looking at an update on OR7 - he's returned to Oregon and has documented 2nd litter as of July. Did you know that the Shasta Pack in CA (mom and 4 cubs) is the sister litter mate of OR7?? She also took off in an unprecedented direction and ended up her journey 500 miles later starting a family in CA to become the FIRST PACK.

What possessed these two littermates from Northeastern Oregon/Idaho border to strike out for Cali when no other's have?? Weird stuff......


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was younger we had one of our farm dogs lured out by coyotes, and killed. I live in an area where coyotes are abundant. I mind the dogs, and don't take chances but I can honestly say coyotes usually take off at the first sign of any confrontation.
I did have a small pack stalking me once when I was out with Sabs and Lex, but once I had the girls safely back in the truck I realized that the problem wasn't the coyotes but the stray dogs and possible coydogs they were running with. 
Coyote behavior varies hugely dependant on their environment, so if I were concerned I would speak to locals and see what they have observed. There is a video on line of a snowmobiler being chased and bitten repeatedly by a coyote. Apparently a wild one, although it looked suspiciously like a game to me. No damage done and the guy being bitten was the one recording it, so you decide I guess.
It would never occur to me to shoot one, at least not without some direct and immediate threat.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

They are not small by me...I think this one is 1/2 coyote and 1/2 wolf


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

llombardo said:


> They are not small by me...I think this one is 1/2 coyote and 1/2 wolf


That seems par for the course for what we have out east.

The coyote/wolf hybrid is a theory on the animal's increased size. Another theory is that the coyote has simply naturally evolved into a larger, somewhat more capable predator in the absence of wolves and cougar here in the east.

Certainly with all the deer and small game we have in the east, there are plenty of opportunities for the coyote population to grow and expand.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dalko43 said:


> That seems par for the course for what we have out east.
> 
> The coyote/wolf hybrid is a theory on the animal's increased size. Another theory is that the coyote has simply naturally evolved into a larger, somewhat more capable predator in the absence of wolves and cougar here in the east.
> 
> Certainly with all the deer and small game we have in the east, there are plenty of opportunities for the coyote population to grow and expand.


There are only a couple of these. Most of them are regular sized coyotes not super coyotes..Lol.

Years ago I was driving down the road and 2 crossed in front of me. I'm 100% sure they were wolves. They were bigger then the one in the picture and just beautiful.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great picture. Does look like what has been shown as a coy wolf.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually studies have been done and DNA documented. So it's moved beyond theory at this point.




Dalko43 said:


> That seems par for the course for what we have out east.
> 
> *The coyote/wolf hybrid is a theory on the animal's increased size*. Another theory is that the coyote has simply naturally evolved into a larger, somewhat more capable predator in the absence of wolves and cougar here in the east.
> 
> Certainly with all the deer and small game we have in the east, there are plenty of opportunities for the coyote population to grow and expand.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

> New genetic tests show that all eastern coyotes are actually a mix of three species: coyote, wolf and dog. The percentages vary, dependent upon exactly which test is applied and the geographic location of the canine.
> Coyotes in the Northeast are mostly (60%-84%) coyote, with lesser amounts of wolf (8%-25%) and dog (8%-11%). Start moving south or east and this mixture slowly changes. Virginia animals average more dog than wolf (85%:2%:13% coyote:wolf:dog) while coyotes from the Deep South had just a dash of wolf and dog genes mixed in (91%:4%:5% coyote:wolf:dog). Tests show that there are no animals that are just coyote and wolf (that is, a coywolf), and some eastern coyotes that have almost no wolf at all
> 
> <snipped>
> ...


 Eastern coyotes are hybrids, but 'coywolf' is not a thing | Earth | EarthSky


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think the term coy wolf is just to describe in general terms most of what the animal is comprised of. I think mother nature is pretty ingenious to work around the extreme prejudices toward the wolf and send out a "wolf in coyote's clothing" to perform a vital function.... Just kidding! Don't need a correction about the natural selection process.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Scientists are a particular lot! 

It's interesting in it's details though. It is an evolutionary process that's ongoing allowing these wild canine species to thrive in a world being altered by we humans.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think it really interesting too. It's funny to me how decades go by with one belief and then in a relative blink of an eye, they discover their previous beliefs to be false. Rumor has it that we may need to add another planet to our solar system soon..lol! Suckers been hiding??


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

https://perambulations.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/so-which-is-it-coyote-coywolf-or-coydog/

I think most are in agreement that there has been some mating between the two going on in the woods. Lots of people doubt dogs are in the equation because of something that is different with fertility dogs versus Wolves/coyotes. Everyone seems to agree the mix of the two makes a strong animal that can adapt and hunt anywhere.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

llombardo said:


> https://perambulations.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/so-which-is-it-coyote-coywolf-or-coydog/
> 
> I think most are in agreement that there has been some mating between the two going on in the woods. Lots of people doubt dogs are in the equation because of something that is different with fertility dogs versus Wolves/coyotes. Everyone seems to agree the mix of the two makes a strong animal that can adapt and hunt anywhere.


I'm pretty sure there isn't anything different about dog fertility vs wolves and coyotes except that dogs can reproduce any time of the year whereas wolves and wolfdogs that are more wolf than dog (and I think coyotes as well) can only mate at a specific time of year. So coyotes and wolves will be on the same cycle typically, but a female dog could easily be in heat at the same time, and male dogs are always able to mate. So I don't see how that would be much of a hindrance. A male wolf's testicles actually shrink down to almost nothing most of the year and only enlarge for the mating season, I wonder if its the same with coyotes? A hybrid of any of these animals is completely fertile though, unlike a typical hybrid animal because of the close genetic similarity.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lykaios said:


> I'm pretty sure there isn't anything different about dog fertility vs wolves and coyotes except that dogs can reproduce any time of the year whereas wolves and wolfdogs that are more wolf than dog (and I think coyotes as well) can only mate at a specific time of year. So coyotes and wolves will be on the same cycle typically, but a female dog could easily be in heat at the same time, and male dogs are always able to mate. So I don't see how that would be much of a hindrance. A male wolf's testicles actually shrink down to almost nothing most of the year and only enlarge for the mating season, I wonder if its the same with coyotes? A hybrid of any of these animals is completely fertile though, unlike a typical hybrid animal because of the close genetic similarity.


I just wrote what I've read on numerous sites in the last year when I decided that I didn't have normal sized coyotes in my area. They are on steroids...

It can happen but its rare as far as coyotes go..
the mating cycles of dogs and coyotes not coinciding, and coyotes are usually antagonistic towards dogs, with even captive specimens having shown reluctance to mate with them. Hybridization usually only occurs when coyotes are expanding into areas where conspecifics are few, and dogs are the only alternatives. Even then, pup survival rates are lower than normal, as dogs do not form pair bonds with coyotes, thus making the rearing of pups more difficult.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I have always lived in coyote areas. I've had an entire pack walk through my camp site when I was up camping and leave my dogs alone. They eyeball my dogs, my dogs eyeball back and that's the end of things. That being said my husband has a co worker who's GSD took on a pack and was tore up pretty bad. The thing was rather than controlling her dog, she let the dog chase the coyote into his pack and it ended with multiple coyote dead and her dog torn up. For me I'd rather have my dog controlled by my side and then I could scream and make myself big to scare the coyote away.


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