# Does this kibble exist??



## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I have been on a search for a large breed kibble formula that meets the calcium and protein levels for my pup, but is also grain free, but have come up with nothing?? I've been on all the dog food review sites. I found this site over the weekend that stated what the appropriate levels should be, but have find one brand that meets this levels and is "quality" food. 
Large Breed Puppy Diet Recommendations

I've always had my pup on grain free simply because my other GSD is allergic, and he does well on it. However, I've recently realized that he has weak pasterns and I want to ensure that he's getting the proper nutritional amounts for his growth and to strengthen his joints.

When Kaiya was a pup, I had her on the Wellness LBP formula. Her coat was beautiful and she loved it, but she was allergic to the grains and would get nasty hot spots and itching. However, the calcium and protein levels are right where they need to be for a large breed pup. I've ordered a small bag of Earthborn Primitive to try at the suggestion of a very respected and admired breeder, but I'm still concerned about the protein levels. 

Does anyone know of a kibble that is grain free that would fit the proper levels for my pup? Or should I just get a small bag of the Wellness LBP, and see how he does on the grains? I am also starting him on a supplement and he gets some raw as well.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Sorry I can't help with your question, but I'm sure someone with more experience on this subject will come along soon. I just have always used the Chicken Soup for mine and they seem to have done well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't think there's anything wrong with Wellness LBP - if it meets the nutritional requirements you're going for, and it sounds like it does, then I'd probably give it a try. Halo was on that when I got her, and she ended up doing better on Orijen, (her stools were softer on Wellness), but not every food works well for every dog. I don't think dogs NEED grains in their diet, but I don't necessarily think they're bad either, not for a dog that tolerates them well. 

I've actually recently switched her to Earthborn Primitive, I just ordered the second bag last week. While her stools are not _quite_ as perfect as they were on Orijen, she seems to be doing fine, and it's $20 a bag less! But I have no idea if it would be a good food for puppies, she's two and a half so that's not an issue anymore.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Try the Earthborn and see how it goes. It's not the protein that's the issue with puppies... just the calcium. Another grain gree you can try out is Orijen. If their stools are solid and they like the food than it's agreeing with them. 

If your pups allergic to grains... don't feed grains. Try the grain free and see if that helps with the hot spots.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Try the Earthborn and see how it goes. It's not the protein that's the issue with puppies... just the calcium. Another grain gree you can try out is Orijen. If their stools are solid and they like the food than it's agreeing with them.
> 
> If your pups allergic to grains... don't feed grains. Try the grain free and see if that helps with the hot spots.


Earthborn's Bison GF formula is suitable for puppies, but I doubt your dog's itching has anything to do with grains, more likely it is chicken if it is an allergy at all.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

My pup doesn't have issues with itching, he has weak pasterns. But I've never tried a food with grains on him, but they seem to be the only ones that have the proper calcium AND protein levels. So I don't actually know that he's allergic to grains, but would like to keep him grain free if I could. And yes, protein amounts are an issue.

This is a link I was given regarding information on weak pasterns. My pup's front legs look very similar to the dog shown at 6 months of age. 
http://siriusdog.com/article.php?id=508&page=4


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## neiltus (Mar 10, 2011)

I feed our current GSD pup (11 weeks) the following 2x a day:
Nature's Variety Prairie Chicken or Beef .5 cup
Nature's Variety Chicken, Venison, or Buffalo 1.5 oz
.25 scoup nupro silver

Assorted string cheese, and maybe some frozen bil-jack (not much) for training.

I also think Nature's Variety makes a one grain carb food that meets the guidelines you listed of 9+% fat, no more than 1-1.2 phosporus to calcium ratio


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Taste of the Wild is for all life stages.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

nutrisource has LB grainfree in an "all lifestages" chicken and one in lamb


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

So that is saying a lower protein food? Those pasterns...

I had a foster pup who was a bit downed. I gave him a Pinnacle formula, I am not sure of which one!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

give the dog the supplements -- ingredients in their specifically for cartilage, ligament integrity.
Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Here is where complex C will be helpful .


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

carmspack said:


> give the dog the supplements -- ingredients in their specifically for cartilage, ligament integrity.
> Carmen


I ordered some "Sure Grow" supplement and picked up some vitamin C. He has been on TOTW and Raw since I got him. TOTW is supposed to be an "All Life Stages", but the calcium and protein levels are both too high for a large breed pup. I was also told to get some VitC.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Orijen has a LBP formula but I don't know if it has the correct calcium requirements. 

I would definitely look into a supplement if that will help. I'm sure others will have good ideas on food/supplements/diet.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

GSD_Xander said:


> Orijen has a LBP formula but I don't know if it has the correct calcium requirements.
> 
> I would definitely look into a supplement if that will help. I'm sure others will have good ideas on food/supplements/diet.


 
*"Protein*: As a percent of diet on a dry weight basis should range between 15%- 27% (AAFCO recommends minumum of 22%)."
*Calcium*: The ideal calcium content, on a dry weight basis is 0.7%-1.2%-. AAFCO recommendation is 1%-2.5% which is generally acceptable though not ideal

Orijen's LBP is 38%. I had him on that for a short time as well, but he just didn't like it. 
TOTW's (Roasted Fowl) Protein is 32% and Calcium is 2.1%
So I've basically had him on a high protein diet since I got him, and I'm afraid this has probably contributed to his weak pasterns. His legs wobble slightly when he sits, but it doesn't seem to bother him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Take a look here - lower protein in the top foods in the list, I think. I was just reading. 
Pinnacle® - Holistic Limited Ingredient Dog and Cat Foods

I think my foster pup was on the trout? Duck? Chicken? Long time ago (okay, not that long but that's my cover for brain fog!) I just listed the three it could be since the others are new!

ETA - I wasn't concerned about grains then - it was pre-grainfree and he grew at a really nice pace - I still use the Pinnacle for pups!


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> nutrisource has LB grainfree in an "all lifestages" chicken and one in lamb


This is a first on the correct protein level (23%), but it doesn't list the calcium level?

Crude Protein (Min.)23.0%230 g/kgCrude Fat (Min.)14.0%140 g/kgCrude Fiber (Max.)6.0%60 g/kgMoisture (Max.)10.0%100 g/kgOmega - 6 Fatty Acids (Min.)
2.7%27 g/kg*Omega - 3 Fatty Acids (Min.).3%3 g/kgGlucosamine (Min.)
550 ppm
550 mg/kg
*Chondroitin (Min.)
150 ppm
150 mg/kg*Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (Min.)70 mg/kg70 mg/kg*Lactobacillus Acidophilus (Min.)50 million CFU/lb50 million CFU/lb*Enterococcus Faecium (Min.)35 million CFU/lb35 million CFU/lb*Saccharomyces Cerevisiae (Min.)900 million cells/lb900 million cells/lb


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Take a look here - lower protein in the top foods in the list, I think. I was just reading.
> Pinnacle® - Holistic Limited Ingredient Dog and Cat Foods
> 
> I think my foster pup was on the trout? Duck? Chicken? Long time ago (okay, not that long but that's my cover for brain fog!) I just listed the three it could be since the others are new!
> ...


It doesn't show calcium levels though? That is another thing I found when looking. The ones that had appropriate protein levels, left out the calcium levels??


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It does - you have to scroll down on the nutritional analysis. I did the same thing!

ETA - ew that did not come out right...
Crude *Protein not less than 22.00%  *Crude Fat not less than 10.00% Crude Fiber not more than 4.00% Moisture not more than 10.00% Omega-6* Fatty Acids not less than 3.17% Omega-3* Fatty Acids not less than 1.82% Caloric Content Metabolizable Energy (calculated) 405 kcal/cup Metabolizable Energy (calculated) 3520 kcal/kg Nutritional Adequacy Statement
Pinnacle Trout & Sweet Potato is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for All Life Stages. Nutrient Analysis Vitamins Function As Fed Unit Vitamin A Eyes / Coat / Bones / Skin 15,258 IU/KG Vitamin D Vigor / Bones / Teeth 1,320 IU/KG Vitamin E Reproduction / Fetal Growth 50.00 IU/KG Thiamine (B1) Nerves / Digestion 15.00 IU/KG Riboflavin (B2) Eyes / Skin / Enzymes 9.20 MG/KG Pantothenic Acid Growth / Nerves 37.00 MG/KG Niacin Nerves / Coat 70.00 MG/KG Pyridoxine Blood / Growth 11.00 MG/KG Folic Acid Growth / Maint / Blood 2.00 MG/KG Biotin Metabolism / Skin / Coat 0.18 MG/KG Vitamin B12 Blood 0.08 MG/KG Choline  Liver / Kidney / Nerves 1,800 MG/KG Minerals Function A*s Fed Unit Calcium Bones / Teeth / Muscle 1.00 % Phosphorus Bones / Teeth / Muscle 0.75 %* Potassium Body Fluids / Metabolism 0.81 % Sodium Regulate Body Fluids 0.33 % Chloride Regulate Body Fluids 0.45 % Magnesium Bones / Teeth / Muscles 0.10 % Iron Blood 84.00 MG/KG Copper Blood 10.80 MG/KG Manganese Bones / Teeth / Muscle 21.00 MG/KG Zinc Reproduction / Skin 214.00 MG/KG Iodine Thyroid 4.10 MG/KG Selenium Bones / Muscle 0.41 MG/KG  Amino Acids As Fed Unit Arginine 1.10 % Lysine 0.81 % Methionine & Cystine 0.56 % Tryptophan 0.28 % Histidine 0.54 % Leucine 0.93 % Isoleucine 0.67 % Phenylalanine & Tyrosine 1.20 % Threonine 0.57 % Valine 0.77 % Fatty Acids As Fed Unit Linoleic Acid 2.75 % Omega - 6 3.17 % Omega - 3 1.82 %


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

**Just an Update**

I finally found it! It's the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient. It's grain free, Protein is 21% and Calcium is 1% and a small pet store right down the street from my house carries it. He loved it, too - actually licked the bowl clean after he was done. I've also started him on some supplements as well, so hopefully we will see some improvement in the next few months. I also think I've finally gotten his weight down to a good level too. I'd taken him down to two cups a day on the TOTW, but it's fat content was 15%, while the NB is only 10%. However, the TOTW suggested 5-7 cups per day(?) while NB is 3-3.75 cups per day? I'm thinking I should just keep him on 2 cups unless he is starting to get too thin?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

TOTW on a puppy I am not sure I would do though I feed it to my adult male
For my dysplastic female I am very happy with NB LID she looks and does great on it but too low in protein for the working dog (though I have not thought about pups though)

I think the CA is not really right for growning puppies with the TOTW though. May want to check on that.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> TOTW on a puppy I am not sure I would do though I feed it to my adult male
> For my dysplastic female I am very happy with NB LID she looks and does great on it but too low in protein for the working dog (though I have not thought about pups though)
> 
> I think the CA is not really right for growning puppies with the TOTW though. May want to check on that.


Yes, it wasn't. The "All Life Stages" is deceiving, but I had him on the Lamb which was 25% Protein and 2.1% Calcium. I did a little research on the weak pasterns and the consensus is that lower protein levels help to strengthen them, so I guess we will see...


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