# Website Marketing????



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One of the more controversial things that has happened to this breed is the advent of the "Website marketing". Now before I go on my rant, I will say without doubt there are some really excellent breeders that use the website for breeding purposes....however when I examine the greater good of this practice....I have my doubts overall.
First, websites are often the reason people will no longer get in their cars and go and visits breeders and see the type of dogs they are acquiring.
Second, these sites create false and unreal expectations to the consumer by the promotion of the titles and certs, and the pictures of stacked dogs, photoshops, etc. 
How often do you read a site where it is inferred that by having this title and that certification, then YOUR puppy will not have to worry about issues associated with the breed. How often do breeders make it clear, that breeding certified hipped/elbow GS will not guarantee the progeny won't have it. Or indicate to consumers that HD is in all GS lines. Or make clear that having a Sch degree no way ensures your puppy will be a protector. These kinds of things are left out of the website, thus leaving consumers to insert in their minds that one guarantees the other.
Lastly, you add on the "American" guarantee and you have set the plate so that consumers think they have purchased something off the assembly line as opposed to a domestic animal. 
Then the letdown, disappointment, and frustration occurs as often these other sides of the picture start to emerge. 
Not saying this happens to all consumers or all breeders, but shouldn't breeders have a responsibility to be open and candid about the ills of the breed and the fact that certain things don't guarantee anything. 
Now I am not against progress, but I am against not presenting a balanced picture to perspective buyers.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> One of the more controversial things that has happened to this breed is the advent of the "Website marketing". Now before I go on my rant, I will say without doubt there are some really excellent breeders that use the website for breeding purposes....however when I examine the greater good of this practice....I have my doubts overall.
> First, websites are often the reason people will no longer get in their cars and go and visits breeders and see the type of dogs they are acquiring.


Agree, but it isn't just website marketing, it is the internet as a whole. A great tool, but can never replace hands on experiences.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As a buyer, I don't care either way about web sites. For me the biggest benefit is having a link to the pedigree database so I can see the pedigree. As an IT professional that does web design, I know how easy it is and how powerful a tool it can be, so fancy web sites don't have me all that impressed. I re-designed the web site for Nikon's breeder well after I purchased him, and at the time I got him the previous site was out of date so my decision on what dog to get and when was based solely on actual interactions with the breeder and the dogs. When I started looking for my next dog a few years later, I committed to a litter from a breeder that has no web site at all (and he has no "guarantee" or "contract" either, though he will trade dogs or give you another dog later on if you find HD or something like that). Unfortunately, that litter didn't take so I went hunting again. This time I picked Pan, from a breeder that does have (IMO) a pretty nice, basic web site, but I'd already talked to this breeder about getting a dog before I got Nikon, so I basically resumed that conversation three years later and waited to see if one of the puppies would be a temperament match.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, you, though, are a rare buyer.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I found Dakoda nonlinear. But I insisted on going to the breeder's home and meeting all her family members that were there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Lies, you, though, are a rare buyer.


So I am finding out! Imagine that, researching what I want, then researching how/where to get it...  I should tell people to approach buying their dog like how I graded research when I was a TA in college - no .com sources allowed!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Lies, you, though, are a rare buyer.


 When you look into the sport there are more people that don't rely on websites but go rather word to mouth and what they can see on the field.

Nala's breeder doesn't have a website. Heck, it's hard to find his dogs online in the Database at all. Trying to find something about her sire was merely impossible. I had to talk to her breeder about her sire. 

Indra's breeder has a nice website but I did not rely on the Website, I drove the five hours and checked that kennel out before I made a decision. Websites are merely there to do a little research, the footwork, however, you have to do yourself. 

When it comes to buying blind. The only people I really trust blind is my parents and their closest friends. If they pick a dog and say "buy him/her" I'll do so blindly without any questions asked.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I also viewed the website and spoke to previous owners but still made the _several_ hr drive to visit, made a day out of it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Pre internet I would not have searched all over California (very big state) so I could pay a thousand on up for something I was not qualified to determine the worth of.

The people posting right now have many years of knowledge or are really into the GS sport venues. 

As i said before I don't know how this helps my neighbor Joe Schmuck who likes GSDs and wants one.

He will buy one from the nearest breeder to us who is still 50 miles away and is known for oversized GS dogs bred the way they were meant to be.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Pre internet I would not have searched all over California (very big state) so I could pay a thousand on up for something I was not qualified to determine the worth of.



Things I would not have known existed without the internet:

1) Well-bred German Shepherds
2) Sable German Shepherds
3) Dog competitions other than AKC
4) Hip and elbow x-rays
5) Bloat
6) Dengenerative myelopathy


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This is a buyer beware world. Anyone can post anything they want on the internet. If the buyer doesn't ask questions, verify information and do their own research whether by contacts, meeting the breeder, meeting dogs from the breeder, etc, then they have no reason to complain about what they got.

There are several breeders on this board that I like. Maybe I'll buy from them when it's time, maybe I won't. But I will try to meet them and their dogs prior to making that decision.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've had several experiences where I "see" a dog on a web site and am very impressed, and then I go to see the dog in person at a show or trial and the dog is not all that memorable. Likewise, the dogs I purchased I did so because of what I saw in person, a dog that I didn't know existed that exhibited all the features I'm looking for. I might have otherwise passed if I'd only gone based on the web site. The dog I had committed to but the litter didn't take, that was a word-of-mouth referral. I've only met the breeder twice and hadn't met him at the time but someone whom I trust helped me find the litter and vouched for me with the breeder.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm rather of fan of the internet as a tool in selecting a breeder, because there is a breeder relatively close to where I live, and without the ability to look up reviews online, he seemed like a good guy to get a puppy from...thanks to the internet, I know better. I was REALLY close to giving him a deposit.

Also, I have to appreciate the fact that, thanks to the internet and this board (And Emoore, THANK YOU!!!) I found the breeder I am getting my little guy from.

It's not the only tool, but a handy one.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

The internet has opened my eyes to so many things, and made a lot possible for me. I don't know about where you all live... but here, you never see anyone with a GSD, you never hear of trainers, I only knew of Schutzhund because of a friend's father who was a handler for the airforce..... and 'word of mouth' about breeders??? Unknown. Shows/events?? Unknown. It just doesn't make its way around here. You literally have to be IN it, to know about it... if you are not and have no access to the internet... good luck!

Without the internet/websites, I would have never known about these things and definitely wouldn't have the same knowledge I do now of the breed and all the sports and training. I also wouldn't have a few great breeders in mind for the WL pup we want to get in a few years. (I also would have NO idea what to look for for that particular line) 

So what it comes down to is.... it's what you make it! You can either go into it ignorant and naive.... or use it as a great source of FREE information and possible links to further that information. If you ask questions, research, and investigate what you find.... then it's a wonderful tool. 

I do not go completely by websites though... I get what information I want, and research from there (phone calls, visits, emails, lots of questions, etc). I would never buy a puppy blindly, and especially not just from a website!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

TrickyShepherd said:


> but here, you never see anyone with a GSD, you never hear of trainers, I only knew of Schutzhund because of a friend's father who was a handler for the airforce..... and 'word of mouth' about breeders??? Unknown. Shows/events?? Unknown. It just doesn't make its way around here. You literally have to be IN it, to know about it...


I think that's kind of the point though, to be "in it" for a while so you can get good referrals from people, hands on experience (or at least observation) so you can get a real feel for what dogs/lines you might like.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Liesje said:


> I think that's kind of the point though, to be "in it" for a while


What we're trying to say as that we wouldn't have even known "it" existed to be "in" in the first place.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, everybody in Germany knows that it exists but that doesn't mean that you are "in" the circle. But knowing definitely helps, and having a Club in town definitely helps too. 

Schutzhund is no supersecretspecialsuperforce stuff that needs to be protected from the public it's actually the other way around. It's a dying sport and could NEED more dedicated people. Over here, it's kind limited since distances and the cost is ridiculous.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, everybody in Germany knows that it exists but that doesn't mean that you are "in" the circle. But knowing definitely helps, and having a Club in town definitely helps too.
> 
> Schutzhund is no supersecretspecialsuperforce stuff that needs to be protected from the public it's actually the other way around. It's a dying sport and could NEED more dedicated people. Over here, it's kind limited since distances and the cost is ridiculous.



I agree 100%, but in rural Texas, German Shepherds, Shutzhund, and breeders charging more than $150 for a purebred puppy are all supersecretspecialsuperforce stuff. You have to _really _go out of your way to find it. I still remember seeing my first sable GSD on this forum; I had to really go out looking to find one in person.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah some of you, that have been "in it" for a very long time forget that most people aren't like you. The average buyer isn't going to go around researching, I'd actually be happy if the average buyer would go on the internet and do some research, but they don't even do that. They look for the closest breeder (hopefully) to them and then go and check out their dogs. They get told all the stuff cliff listed, it sounds good, and they buy their pet for the next 10 years. They aren't looking for anything special, they're looking for a GSD that will bark when it hears a noise and will cuddle when they want to cuddle.

As much as you all want people to go out and do their research, no one will do that. I didn't even know there was a GSD club in my area until I got a GSD and started doing research on places to train. It's easy to forget that many people are way under informed and we'd be lucky (in my opinion) if everyone looking for a GSD would take even a day to do some research. Instead they go onto craiglist, they google their area, or go to the nearest pet store to get one.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> What we're trying to say as that we wouldn't have even known "it" existed to be "in" in the first place.


Exactly emoore.

Not that long ago if I had read 'what to look for in a reputable breeder' I wouldn't have known what they were talking about.

Now that I have read it (some time ago) I would still have a problem finding a breeder anywhere near me that meets those requirements.

There is a massive gap between those in the know and the huge market for GSD companion animals. I don't know how that can be fixed or even if it can be fixed.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am thinking location has a lot to do with how much value the internet can have.
Where I live and from my experience, very few people are "into" a breed. People get a dog out of the paper, off their work intranet/newsletter, from the pound, etc. And then.... they are happy with their dog.
People don't seem to be worried too much about how the dog grows up. They just raise their dog, and deal with whatever issues occur.

Virually no one health test, and even fewer train/title. The ones that do are mostly into the AKC conformation version of whatever breed with which they are involved. John Q. sees those "show" dogs and thinks he really does not need, or want, one. Therefore any old dog will do.

I have always been an animal person, and thought i was well-informed. Until I got online. I learned just how small was my pool of knowledge.

So for me, the internet has been a valuable tool. Would I buy a dog strictly off of a slick website? no. And I really am amazed at people who just want a family pet that pay huge money and ship across the continent, or the Pond.

Having said all that, I think we can often get a good idea of "who" someone is by their website.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also for me the internet has been a valuable tool for gosh just about everything.

I admit I like looking at gsd websites, breeder websites, but I view alot of them as tv commercials and no I wouldn't buy just off a website, but then again, I've had dogs as long as I've been alive, so I kinda know what I am looking for if I'm looking.

I also am amazed by the people who have bought dogs from XXX because they believe what they read off a website or think because they've paid big bucks and the website 'said so' they couldn't possibly be getting robbed..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How did so many of us manage to get great dogs before the internet? And, no, we were not born with the knowledge we now have.  We used to read things called books and magazines and we used to get out of the house and get hands on experience.  The internet has made some stuff easier, but it is also used to spread a lot of hearsay and information that is not based on facts, but on emotions. If a John Q. new person is unable to understand titles, HD/ED, health issues, temperament, nerves, work/sport, etc then how are they going to be able to separate the facts from the fiction? Only through hands on experience can people really separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lisa, I remember reading a book on dog training that advocated bopping the dog across the nose when he got in front as a proper way to teach heel. Not sure the resources at my local library were of high quality....... Poor old Dougal the Cocker Spaniel.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What sold me on Karlo was his sire and the video's his owner had. 
At that time, he had only sired a litter or two.
I thought this dog was special and I really, really wanted a puppy out of him. The timing was perfect because someone pm'd me about an upcoming breeding w/ him and the breeder that was using him as stud were local/very reputable.

I still feel like I won the lottery!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lisa that is what I was thinking reading the last page and a half. I'm just a newbie but I can't imagine that Schutzhund was any MORE popular ten, twenty, thirty years ago than it was now, and that people then somehow had it way easier meeting dogs and seeing them work....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gagsd said:


> Lisa, I remember reading a book on dog training that advocated bopping the dog across the nose when he got in front as a proper way to teach heel. Not sure the resources at my local library were of high quality....... Poor old Dougal the Cocker Spaniel.


I took Clover to a class about 18 years ago and the literature handout said to rub your dogs nose in their accidents....that training club is still together after all these years(of course they are no longer old school).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If you know how to use it, the internet can be a huge advantage. Plus none of us would have met. I love watching how yall's dogs progress and like reading up on your stories, look at the pictures. 

It's a neat tool


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm getting the impression that some people on this forum think that you should not be involved the German Shepherd Dogs until after you have at least 30 years experience with German Shepherd Dogs. Gee that makes so much sense.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

lhczth said:


> How did so many of us manage to get great dogs before the internet?


Good question; I sure didn't. I adopted dogs from shelters or bought them out of the newspaper. Had no idea there was anything else.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Pre-internet, I found my GSDs by reading the classifieds, going to shows, asking around, calling around, driving around, and looking at a lot of dogs and a lot of litters. It was time-consuming and expensive, but very educational.

The internet makes things so much easier in some ways. In other ways it complicates things. I can see how the general public could be very easily duped by a super-slick BYB website, and there are a LOT of them out there, and many of them contradict each other. I feel sorry for the average pet owner who is just looking to find a nice, healthy pet with a good temperament. Research is hard enough in the beginning when you're just sorting out facts from fiction, and on the internet anyone can say anything--how is a person supposed to know the truth about anything? So that part of it is complicated--too much information. But on balance, I love the fact that breeders have websites--I want to see photos, pedigrees, acheivements, etc. and get a feel for their philosophy. Generally, the less wordy a site is, the better.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Good question; I sure didn't. I adopted dogs from shelters or bought them out of the newspaper. Had no idea there was anything else.


I did the same thing you did emoore.

I had one pure bred GSD that was re-gifted to me.

Like I said. The nearest WL breeders are 200 miles in either direction and the same goes for schutzhund clubs. 

So I guess some of you were just lucky enough to have a top notch GSD breeder down the street. 
So you could go and watch them work their dogs.

Back in the day I was working and raising kids. Didn't have a lot of time to study the history of the breed and run around the State of California hoping to find the right breeder for a GSD I couldn't afford.

Apparently some breeders and sport people don't understand the difficulty of finding a good solid GSD for Joe or Jane Schmuck.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

To be honest, I didn't ever even go on the net until Onyx came along(she's only 5.5 yrs!)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> Good question; I sure didn't. I adopted dogs from shelters or bought them out of the newspaper. Had no idea there was anything else.


And I want to emphasize that these were not the ye olde perfect dogs of yore everybody else seems to have had. I had a shelter dog who was so stupid she could only play chase if you ran in a straight line. I had a Dalmatian who was allergic to grass and dust. The only decent dogs we had were the working ranch dogs that we and the neighbors bred. They were a mix of several different herding breeds and were, quite frankly, ugly. Great cattle dogs but not good pets.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK admittedly, I did pick Coke off the Internet. We were set to adopt a local rescue GSD and when we took Kenya to meet him, it didn't go so well (and he had pretty bad SA at the time and we work full time). Luckily he got adopted by a friend of mine and is the most spoiled dog ever. Since we had already committed to another dog, had all the supplies, everything ready, I went on PetFinder where I saw Coke and just had to have him. I applied and got approved and we picked him up two days later. (for those that don't know, Coke is a total All American, a mix of mixes)

So I guess for every breeder that finds it easier to scam people over the Internet, there are probably five or ten dogs that get fostered or rescued because of the exposure.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Everybody starts somewhere. Not everyone is born into the GSD breed like I was. I'd like to think that I've got a good foundation yet there are huge gaps that need to be filled. I am learning new things every day. Even dared to take onto the challenge to go for the BH/IPO/RH stuff with Nala. If it wasn't for the internet I hadn't found my SAR Team, wouldn't have met my best friend, wouldn't have known where to look and/or received so much help. 

I met Justine, found out about Greg Doud, went to his workshops, met Dawn and she placed one of her dogs with our team FOR FREE who is now being worked in Cadaver (BTW. Dawn, if you are reading this, a retired State Trooper complimented him :wub: ). 

This Place opens so many possibilities, not only for Rescues but for Breeders, Handlers, Pet Owners. Think about how many pet owners have found a breeder on here and went into sport? Think about all the dogs that have been saved from death row. All the friendships that have been formed. 

Not all of the Internet is bad. And people have to start somewhere. Times change and you have to go with the time. I don't get why some people are so hung up on the past. If we hadn't had the internet I don't know if we could have made a smooth move like we did. Without the internet we would have had to leave the dogs behind for I don't know how long. 

I can stay in contact with my family on a daily basis. They see what I do via facebook, Mom can follow our progress. Even if she doesn't comment on Facebook I get her messages and she watches everything I do. 

I am so grateful for the internet and that I can keep in touch with my family. That I can see what they do. That I can skype with my sister. 

Without all that, I'd be very very homesick.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Everybody starts somewhere. Not everyone is born into the GSD breed like I was. I'd like to think that I've got a good foundation yet there are huge gaps that need to be filled. I am learning new things every day. Even dared to take onto the challenge to go for the BH/IPO/RH stuff with Nala. If it wasn't for the internet I hadn't found my SAR Team, wouldn't have met my best friend, wouldn't have known where to look and/or received so much help.
> 
> I met Justine, found out about* Greg Doud*, went to his workshops,


I'm going to a seminar tomorrow w/ Greg's GF Bridget


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I love the Internet, I couldn't very well drive to Michigan to check out my dogs breeder in person, I love the fact you can select what you want from anywhere , not just locally, it's the same with my horses, I breed to stallions by choice, not location, in either situation I know what I'm looking for, it's just separating the wheat from the chafe, I consider the knowledge at the stroke of a key one of the greatest assets available, I don't have extra time to drive around checking out local kennels, and how diverse would shows and clubs be with all the dogs from
just local kennels, that would suck , variety is the spice of life and the Internet to be is fantastic, some of my best friends were just originally chat room pals.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Caveat Emptor, a statement that has stood the test of time.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I've never picked any of my dogs from a website, but without the internet I wouldn't have gotten Dena, Keefer, or Halo. I knew the breeder in Dena and Keefer's case from another GSD board. Halo's breeder is a member here, she's not really active, but at the time people who knew and trained with her were active posters and some of them were my friends. They had met Halo in person and were very familiar with the lifestyle I provide for my dogs through my posts and pictures and felt that she would be a good fit for us. They were right. It was a leap of faith to ship a puppy I had never met bred by a person I had never met all the way across the country, and I'm glad that because of the internet I had the opportunity to get such a terrific dog. 

I get the larger point being made here, and I don't disagree, but I don't think the internet is all bad either. As others have pointed out, unless you're surrounded by good breeders and can actually go out and meet them and see their dogs in action, you're extremely limited.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

lhczth said:


> How did so many of us manage to get great dogs before the internet?


Before the internet I read books and magazines. I contacted and spoke with the breeders in these magazines. I purchased my dogs form out of state breeders based on this limited information. My other choice back then would have been to buy a dog from a byb from parents I did not like. Things have not changed much with the internet.

I really don't see a need to see the parents (of course I want to see pics) or to see them work when one is looking for a GSD for a companion and family protector. A puppy is always a crap shoot, and all you can do is stack the deck in your favor by purchasing a pup out of parents that are health tested, OFAd, and titled.

*My biggest problem with purchasing a puppy under these circumstances is the lack of information available to the public on what specific dogs bring to the table, good or bad. I know the knowledge it out there, but it seems that unless one has a mentor, you are doomed to eternal ignorance in this arena.*


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Things I would not have known existed without the internet:
> 
> 1) Well-bred German Shepherds
> 2) Sable German Shepherds
> ...


Ditto! But, I will add your no. 2) I didn't know of the other colors except for black and red. I also didn't know much about other types of kibbles or even raw. Until I had my first computer back in 2002 (I think), I never knew of so many breeds of dog!

I'm glad for breeders websites it helps that I'm no longer limited to the newspaper (which without the internet and the lab forums and others, I would have gotten my puppy from the paper not knowing better). 

The only things I hate about certain websites is the awful music in the background and lack of information on the dogs OR where its a lot of things on it that doesn't relate to their dogs or puppies. It irks me greatly! One website I had to scroll for ten or more minutes just to find information and it was incomplete!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when Cliff said "One of the more controversial things that has happened to this breed is the advent of the "Website marketing" I don't think he was weighing the positives or negatives of the computer and the information age. The issue is a new class of "merchandizer" who creates a business built in moving dogs through standard advertising marketing schemes , fancy and shiny , buzz words , font , colour , captivating music , hitting emotional buttons --- all image but no substance .
Big buck dogs brought in , bred , progeny sold . Commodified , investment with returns .
They are not dirt under the nails , dog-people , some probably haven't even clipped a lead onto collar and walked a dog down the road . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> when Cliff said "One of the more controversial things that has happened to this breed is the advent of the "Website marketing" I don't think he was weighing the positives or negatives of the computer and the information age. The issue is a new class of "merchandizer" who creates a business built in moving dogs through standard advertising marketing schemes , fancy and shiny , buzz words , font , colour , captivating music , hitting emotional buttons --- all image but no substance .
> Big buck dogs brought in , bred , progeny sold . Commodified , investment with returns .
> They are not dirt under the nails , dog-people , some probably haven't even clipped a lead onto collar and walked a dog down the road .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Well. . . . I don't think there's much to discuss there. Who's gonna defend it?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Guess I have never seen those websites-I used to love looking at websites-most of the music on websites is terrible ...maybe I'm just old--I have never bought a dog solely on a webiste--almost did but that could have turned out badly. Never saw either of Rories parents -but it turned out fine. Saw her mother later but never met her father


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Emoore said:


> Well. . . . I don't think there's much to discuss there. Who's gonna defend it?


Oh, I am sure there will be someone! :rofl:

That - Carmen's quote - can also be seen on some "rescue" websites, too. 


> Originally Posted by *carmspack*
> _when Cliff said "One of the more controversial things that has happened to this breed is the advent of the "Website marketing" I don't think he was weighing the positives or negatives of the computer and the information age. The issue is a new class of "merchandizer" who creates a business built in moving dogs through standard advertising marketing schemes , fancy and shiny , buzz words , font , colour , captivating music , hitting emotional buttons --- all image but no substance .
> Big buck dogs brought in , bred , progeny sold . Commodified , investment with returns .
> They are not dirt under the nails , dog-people , some probably haven't even clipped a lead onto collar and walked a dog down the road .
> ...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well if websites are so horrible why do most of the known breeders on this board have them?

Some are all fluff and no substance but the same could be said for driving maybe hundreds of miles to visit a breeder who is all fluff and no substance.

Also almost all breeders ship dogs. If buyers are held to the standard that they should actually go to and visit breeders, then shouldn't breeders not ship to buyers they have not met in person.

Carmen: I love your dogs. How long will it take for me to to get to your place from California. 

You see I respect Carmen and her vast knowledge about the breed. I know this through the internet. If I was looking for a dog and Carmen was willing to sell me one, I don't need to go to Canada.

Where I live we only have the dreaded BYB anywhere near. So if I didn't have internet how would I find breeders to go look at their dogs. I really don't think the yellow pages are better than the internet.

You have to weigh the website content the same way you would weigh a breeder you physically visited.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well if websites are so horrible why do most of the known breeders on this board have them?
> 
> Some are all fluff and no substance but the same could be said for driving maybe hundreds of miles to visit a breeder who is all fluff and no substance.


I don't think anyone is saying "websites are so horrible". It's just hard for people who are just learning about the breed, to separate fact from fiction and fluff from substance. But I think it's a lot easier now that we have the internet, we can save some time calling around and driving around. When I was looking for a GSD back in the 90's, before the internet was commonly used, I talked to a lot of breeders on the phone and was able to weed through some that way. But I wasted a lot of time and gas going to visit some skeevy BYB's who talked a good game... not that I regret having done so, because it was educational, but now that I can visit the skeevy BYB's website, it's a lot easier than driving 100 miles to find out I wouldn't buy from them.



> Where I live we only have the dreaded BYB anywhere near.


Where are you in CA? We have a lot of good breeders in this state, from North to South and everywhere in between!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I live on the Central Coast roughly half way between Los Angeles an San Francisco.

I lived in the metopolitan L.A. most of my life. 

My point is that even living in So. Cal. for many years I wouldn't have known then how to find a reputable breeder pre internet.

I probably would have purchased a dog from the first breeder who seemed nice and had cute puppies. Of course they are all cute so I guess it would have come down to the nice people.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Andy, I understand your point.

Until I got my boy and started training & befriending other GSD owners my SIL was the only person I knew with a GSD. I was no where near as educated as I am now, still have ALOT to learn and consider myself a novice. But still without any knowledge I knew that my SIL GSD was not what I wanted, he's physically not pleasing to look at, nervous, paces, whines and is unpredictable. The internet provided me with a wealth of information and I love looking at breeders sights & chatting on this board. I did drive and meet the breeder & her dogs prior it was important to me, let's break bread and talk about your breeding program...BUT the internet told me this was wise to do because no one else was in my social circle to tell me, my family and friends could care less about training or reputable breeders.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Andy, I understand your point.
> 
> Until I got my boy and started training & befriending other GSD owners my SIL was the only person I knew with a GSD. I was no where near as educated as I am now, still have ALOT to learn and consider myself a novice. But still without any knowledge I knew that my SIL GSD was not what I wanted, he's physically not pleasing to look at, nervous, paces, whines and is unpredictable. The internet provided me with a wealth of information and I love looking at breeders sights & chatting on this board. I did drive and meet the breeder & her dogs prior it was important to me, let's break bread and talk about your breeding program...BUT the internet told me this was wise to do because no one else was in my social circle to tell me, my family and friends could care less about training or reputable breeders.


Thank you Courtney.

I have had several Labs in my life, from shelters or individuals. They were great family companions and I still know almost nothing about Labs. They are hunting dogs and they love water and they are not GSDs. 
There you have it. Everything I know about Labs.
If I wanted to buy a Lab from a breeder, I would use the internet heavily and hope I would be able to weed out the good from the bad.


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## Rockchipper (Feb 22, 2012)

I suspect that the Internet and fancy websites could in fact be detrimental to the breed. Unethical breeders can mass produce and sell dogs because of their site and it's ability to reach a mass audience. The reverse could also be true. A breeder with poor quality dogs or ethics can be lambasted instantly across the world.

I live in Montana and therefore don't have ready access to gsd breeders. The closest schutzhund club is 90 minutes away.

My first two gsd were from BYBs. They were large i am sure did not meet the breed standardand great family companions. They were purchased with absolutely no research. One lived 17 years. I was lucky.

I have been looking for my first real working line gsd for about a year. The Internet has led me to some excellent forums with some people whose knowledge of the breed is mind altering. I have learned a ton but still feel as if I know only enough to dangerous.

I wonder if the Internet could be used more powerfully (through AKC or PDB) to follow all of the dogs which a breeder produces to see what qualities or problems they have with specific breedings. I think they have something like that in Germany with breed wardens?

Anyway I appreciate all of you guys who take the time to educate the novice
Mike


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

For me the internet and forums are valuable resources, that make available breeders, dogs and their owners, that I would never have known of. But the internet is just a starting place in finding a breeder, lines of dogs would be right for me. It is just a starting point and from there I would want to meet the breeder, see their dogs, talked to those who own them etc...

It was only after getting Benny that I joined the forum and learned a lot about different lines, breeders. I had no idea that I have some wonderful GSD's breeders between 40 minutes and 6 hours away in each direction.

The internet, web sites are just tools. I would never base a purchase of a dog based solely on a web site.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, you definitely hit what I was aiming at....its not the internet perse......its the amount of damage that can be done through the internet in terms of misinformation, and allowing people to feel knowledgable about the breed through much theory and little application. That's.... Never a recipe for true understanding. IMO
And I don't think that owners of German shepherds should have thirty years of information, Trust Me!!!,,,,,But I do think that people like Breeders and Judges and Trainers, and people who give advice should have both extensive theorectical and practical knowledge of the breed....and you see it less and less and I think the Websites/internet contributes to the lack of practical knowledge.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

For what its worth, I got both my dogs from breeders after doing as much research as I could online. I spoke with both breeders long before I got a pup, but in both cases my pickup visit was the first visit.. both breeders are quite a bit far away from here. And for what it is worth, I'm very happy with both dogs and how that turned out. I will say that it was a bit of luck that things ended up the way they did though.


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