# Help possible fear Aggression towards me



## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

Hello all. So i looked everywhere, read books about GSP and even went through most of the forums to try and figure out what to do. I have a 20 month old GSP, he accepted the fact that im the pack leader and does not challenge it. For about a month or two he has been showing different type of aggression. For example when he is laying down next to my bed and i get up and try to pet him i can feel he is uncomfortable for some reason and he growls but his tail is tucked under, ears are point back, he is not looking at me, his head is down. He growls and walkd away. From what i read this is a sign of fear aggression. I already identified that he also growls if me and my GF try to pet him at the same time. Mostly he growls towards me. What can i do to start changing his behaviour? I tried sitting in the middle of the room with my hand open and calling him without looking at him, but he never gets close enough to give him a treat for good behaviour. I really need help if anyone can hep me.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

What exactly have you done to make him accept you are pack leader? Your dog sounds very fearful of you. Does he act the same way around your GF? Did she do the same things you did?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Your dog is afraid of you and trying to avoid you.The growl is him trying to tell you to" please give me space,I don't want conflict."


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## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

Bramble said:


> What exactly have you done to make him accept you are pack leader? Your dog sounds very fearful of you. Does he act the same way around your GF? Did she do the same things you did?


I did not use violence. For example before feeding him he knows he needs to sit let me put the bawl down and wait for command free before eating. I read books about gsp where it says they like to work for everythinng. Just like in a real pack, food isnt given for free. He also knows that before we go out for a walk he needs to wait until i go through the door first and wait until command free for him to follow me. I tought him not to pull during walks so he doesnt think he is leading me. So when we walk he is right by my left side walking the same speed that im walking. Even when we are playing fetch he needs to sit before i throw, again working for everything, and he loves it. Im a med school student so latey i havent had much time to spend with him and hats when i realized this is happening, but he still knows that we do things when i want to do it not him. Again showing him whos the leader. The aggression he shows is not a dominent one but a fewefull one, more like uncomfortable whats going on


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lavtxa said:


> So i looked everywhere, read books about GSP....


Do you have a German shepherd? GSP usually means German Shorthaired Pointer. GSD is a German shepherd dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Can you provide more background? How long have you had this dog? If not long, what was his history? Are you able to exercise the dog? Will he play with you? If not, or even if yes, what does a typical day consist of for this dog? Do you have other pets? Is he trained or are you working with a trainer? What does it mean that he's accepted you as pack leader?

There just isn't enough info to even guess what's going on. But as the other posters have said, it sounds like your dog is very afraid of you and hasn't accepted anything, he's just scared.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

I agree with Tim. There are people here who really know these dogs. Some are/were trainers, some are breeders, anyway they can help. 

But they’re going to need more detail to determine if it’s your behavior that needs to change.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

I'll echo that. It sounds like the dog is extremely afraid of you. How far do you take this "pack leader" business? Yes, they like to work but do not use things like food as a method of dominance. Making them work for food is fine but it should never be used as a way to dominate. Training them to walk in a heel or not rush the door are all good things, but how did you go about them? There is indeed a wrong way to do it.

This dog sounds terrified. Not saying you were abusive or anything, but every dog has different needs and perhaps things went a little far for him at some point. More info on how you achieved these "pack dominance" things would help us correct your behavior around him and hopefully help fix the relationship. In my experience this whole "pack mentality" thing gets taken way too far sometimes. We're not dogs, dogs do not look at us like dogs and we cannot mimic the behavior of dogs. If we try, it either is ignored, inspires a fight or causes terror. Personally I say throw that **** out the window immediately. They do need to learn we're the boss and they obey us but there are much better ways to go about it.


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## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Can you provide more background? How long have you had this dog? If not long, what was his history? Are you able to exercise the dog? Will he play with you? If not, or even if yes, what does a typical day consist of for this dog? Do you have other pets? Is he trained or are you working with a trainer? What does it mean that he's accepted you as pack leader?
> 
> There just isn't enough info to even guess what's going on. But as the other posters have said, it sounds like your dog is very afraid of you and hasn't accepted anything, he's just scared.


So I had him since 3 months old. I try to exercise with him almost every day. He loves to play with me from playing fetch to tug war. he is the only pet. he is trained and still in the middle of training, ive had a boxer and a beagle before and trained them by myself with no issues.


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## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

NerdicEclipse said:


> I'll echo that. It sounds like the dog is extremely afraid of you. How far do you take this "pack leader" business? Yes, they like to work but do not use things like food as a method of dominance. Making them work for food is fine but it should never be used as a way to dominate. Training them to walk in a heel or not rush the door are all good things, but how did you go about them? There is indeed a wrong way to do it.
> 
> This dog sounds terrified. Not saying you were abusive or anything, but every dog has different needs and perhaps things went a little far for him at some point. More info on how you achieved these "pack dominance" things would help us correct your behavior around him and hopefully help fix the relationship. In my experience this whole "pack mentality" thing gets taken way too far sometimes. We're not dogs, dogs do not look at us like dogs and we cannot mimic the behavior of dogs. If we try, it either is ignored, inspires a fight or causes terror. Personally I say throw that **** out the window immediately. They do need to learn we're the boss and they obey us but there are much better ways to go about it.


honestly I will change my behavior if we come to a conclusion that its me, but I don't think im taking it too far. I taught him command wait, so all I do is give the command sit, then wait, open the door go through it first then call him by either free or come. I will get rid of what im doing with food, but still all im doing is giving the command sit before putting the bawl down that's all. Not using it to punish or anything.


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## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Do you have a German shepherd? GSP usually means German Shorthaired Pointer. GSD is a German shepherd dog.


 yes sorry, wrong spelling, if proof is needed I can upload pictures and videos


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## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Can you provide more background? How long have you had this dog? If not long, what was his history? Are you able to exercise the dog? Will he play with you? If not, or even if yes, what does a typical day consist of for this dog? Do you have other pets? Is he trained or are you working with a trainer? What does it mean that he's accepted you as pack leader?
> 
> There just isn't enough info to even guess what's going on. But as the other posters have said, it sounds like your dog is very afraid of you and hasn't accepted anything, he's just scared.


 
Ive owned him since he was 3 month old. I try to exercise with him on daily bases. He loves to play with me, from simple games as fetch the ball to tug of war and etc. the Typical day is 7 am 15 min walk, then I feed him, play a little go to clinical rotation until 8 pm, but my gf is some at 12 so she takes care of him. When I return I take him out again for a run then play with him before feeding. I do not have other pets. Ive trained him and still do. I am ready to do a complete 180 degrees change if required. I just need a little guidance with this issue. I've owned boxer and a beagle before which I trained on my own with no issues.


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## lavtxa (Dec 16, 2017)

NerdicEclipse said:


> I'll echo that. It sounds like the dog is extremely afraid of you. How far do you take this "pack leader" business? Yes, they like to work but do not use things like food as a method of dominance. Making them work for food is fine but it should never be used as a way to dominate. Training them to walk in a heel or not rush the door are all good things, but how did you go about them? There is indeed a wrong way to do it.
> 
> This dog sounds terrified. Not saying you were abusive or anything, but every dog has different needs and perhaps things went a little far for him at some point. More info on how you achieved these "pack dominance" things would help us correct your behavior around him and hopefully help fix the relationship. In my experience this whole "pack mentality" thing gets taken way too far sometimes. We're not dogs, dogs do not look at us like dogs and we cannot mimic the behavior of dogs. If we try, it either is ignored, inspires a fight or causes terror. Personally I say throw that **** out the window immediately. They do need to learn we're the boss and they obey us but there are much better ways to go about it.


Im honestly ready to try anything to bring back our old relationship. So what would you recommend? stop with the sitting before feeding? and everything else?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Do you verbally praise/reward the dog regularly? Do you create joy for him when he does all these things? Does he have positive-associations with any marker words (like yes! good! etc.) that you say in a happy, cheerful tone? The #1 mistake most newbies make in training is failing to mark good behavior or offer the dog enough praise. That should be the foundation that is _most _of your training, with corrections only after he knows the right thing and needs reminding. Training should be _fun _for the dog, not a chore. 

You can't wait for him to come to you to give a treat. That's too late to mark whatever he did that you're rewarding. It ought to be almost instantaneous. If I'm training sits or downs or stays, I'm right there with the dog and a treat pouch. Even a long down stay in which I retreat has me returning to release and treat. I only call the dog to me and reward if I'm practicing a recall. So think about what it is you are rewarding if the dog has to come to you to get the treat!

Verbal praise is at least as important as the treat -- when I'm training, my dogs know I love them, I'm having fun with them, and every good behavior makes me the happiest human ever. That motivates them to engage.

If I were fostering a dog that didn't like to be pet, and was hard to give treats to, as you describe, I think I'd probably transition the dog to a clicker to open up a clear line of communication. It's just a way to mark good behavior, to let him know you and he are on the same wave length, without having to touch him. He's obviously got some negative associations from your touch and or being called to you, so I'd start over with a new method/tool with no associations for him.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Is something that has recently cropped up? My last GSD Alvin started doing stuff like that and it was weird and off. It was not related to any happening, it was neurological. That is why I ask if this is something new. If it is, vet. Check for anything that could be hurting, and run a thyroid and snap on him. There are medical things that can cause sudden change in behavior.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

So you said a month or two this has been happening. If you have had him from a pup and he is 20months old, and this wasn't happening before...vet.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Okay, thanks for the additional background information. I'm not there and can't see the dog and your interaction, but I'm guessing that what you've been told about leadership is a bit off. What your dog NEEDS is for you to be the most friendly and most interesting thing in his environment. Concentrate on being his buddy, not his leader. He'll naturally decide to follow you, it's not something you can force on him. In fact, I'd say what you're seeing is the results of trying to dominate and dictate what he thinks. Can't be done! Win him over by being someone he can't wait to see a d play with. You'll be amazed how well that works!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Let me say too that it's not a matter of fault...i see that you care and are trying to do the best for your puppy! Just build trust and confidence and love...the rest follows naturally. These dogs are amazingly devoted and attentive, it's not good or necessary to try to force it...just be his buddy!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

lavtxa said:


> yes sorry, wrong spelling, if proof is needed I can upload pictures and videos


Pictures are always welcome,we all love to see new family members. No one needs any proof of what kind of dog you have. Many people on this forum own multiple breeds, and all questions are welcome.


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## Arathorn II (Oct 7, 2017)

lavtxa said:


> when he is laying down next to my bed and i get up and try to pet him i can feel he is uncomfortable for some reason and he growls ... I already identified that he also growls if me and my GF try to pet him at the same time. Mostly he growls towards me.



Just trying to think outside the box here..

Do you sleepwalk?

Have you and your GF had any loud arguments? Are either of you abusive or dominating toward the other vocally?


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm not a trainer but you have given only one situational example of his "fear/aggression" where he is clearly telling you he doesn't want to be patted or bothered. Are there other situations that bring this same response from him (tail tuck and/or growl) that doesn't involve you or gf going to him to show your affections? Maybe he has been giving more subltle signals that you have not seen or misinterpreted and he's now at the point of making it very clear.

As for sitting until his food is put down, there is nothing wrong with that as long as you are leaving him to eat in peace. Also, making a dog wait til the food is put down is not a matter of showing dominance, it is teaching a dog self discipline. At least that should be the reason you have taught that.

I require my boy to wait til I put the bowl down, look me in the eye for one split second and immediately tell him to eat. Then I walk away and leave him in peace.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I sounds to me like its your RELATIONSHIP with your dog. Too much I'm dominant and not nearly enough loving and praise. Training is 95% praise and patience. Just say nope when he does not do the command and ask again. Also. maybe you are tired, tense and grumpy from going to medical school and the dog picks up on this. Whenever he does what you ask don't be like a militaristic drill sargent and go onto the next command, say good boy like you mean it and stroke his head. He wants to please you. Don't go over the top with praise it will distract him. Just some gentle kind words and stroke his shoulder. Also just hang out relaxing at your side no training involved.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

And walks that are just fun companionship and sniffing around. My dog has a release command Lets Go. That means lets go now and just be a person and dog having fun on a walk. And out of your mind play sessions, throwing sticks and running around.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Lavxa, as a med student, you might try looking at the body of evidence-based work being produced by the members of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (the ACVB members are all DVMs who have done a post-graduate residency in animal behavior, practiced in the field, and obtained board certification after rigorous examination -- there are very few of them in the United States, most are in vet schools). They've done lots and lots of research on methods of shaping behavior, and it all shows praise/reward is critical. Reading their research literature will give you a way to connect your science-based thinking to your approach, as I think the science will support the advice you've been given here. At any research university in the United States, you can almost certainly access the vet journals using your university library's website, and get to the articles behind paywalls with your med student credentials. That's probably true in many other countries too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lavtxa said:


> yes sorry, wrong spelling, if proof is needed I can upload pictures and videos


No, of course not. I was just curious.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Can you video tape this behavior and post it? It may not be exactly what you are describing?


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

lavtxa said:


> HWhat can i do to start changing his behaviour? I tried sitting in the middle of the room with my hand open and calling him without looking at him, but he never gets close enough to give him a treat for good behaviour. I really need help if anyone can hep me.





lavtxa said:


> Mostly he growls towards me. What can i do to start changing his behaviour? I tried sitting in the middle of the room with my hand open and calling him without looking at him, but he never gets close enough to give him a treat for good behaviour.


I am a newbie dog owner! But, always loved animals.
This worked to "make friends" with my uncle's Doberman that he got to guard his warehouse.
(My uncle told me that he was going to return the dog, because nobody could get near him, & employees were afraid of him. I asked if I could see him.)

The new dog was shut in one of the unused offices with cardboard laid on the floor. I sat down in far corner of room, holding food. He was crouched in the other corner, growling. I tossed a bit of food in front of him. After a long wait, he ate it. I tossed a tidbit of food a little closer to me. He crept a little closer, and ate that too. After a long time he was crouched almost right in front of me, eating a food tidbit every once in a while. I still never raised my hand or tried to touch him, I stayed sitting down and quiet. Then I slowly held out my hand with some food in my palm. He waited, thought, and then he ate the food out of my hand. Then he walked up to me and sniffed me all over! At that point, I got the feeling that it would be OK if I slowly raised my hand and touched him. I spent the whole day at my uncle's office, and he followed me everywhere! I hardly ever saw "Coal" after that, but my uncle said he was one of the best guard dogs at the warehouse (even though of course I begged to take him home for a pet).

I think you can win his love and trust if you stop doing things that are making him uncomfortable**, and if you only pet him when he is the one who comes to you (Even if it takes a few weeks? But worth the wait. 


**I don't know much about dog training - so I don't know what could be making him growl.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

How is he toward strangers ? Other dogs ?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Any progress? What have you tried? I agree with CometDog that you should have your pup evaluated by your vet to rule out medical reasons for the behavioral change...as a first step.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Do you know from what lines your dog is? 

If this is a West German Show line dog, they tend to be very handler sensitive. They can form opinions of people and attach themselves to the other partner who seems less dominant, or if one partner is louder, yells or is stiff and stern, they may see that as unstable, and will gravitate away from that person. 

They can downright not like someone. So how do we fix that? 

Ok, I had a bitch I absolutely loved. She was my dream come true, my heart dog. As she neared a year, I started her in classes. The instructor was actually really good, but she wanted us to do a 30 minute down stay with our dog. And my girl did it, while I was having dinner, the first night. The next day I thought it would be a piece of cake. I put her on a down, and started to eat again. She waited about 15 minutes and then she broke the stay. I over-reacted and put her back in the stay. She bounced up a gain. I started over. I struggled with her. I became frustrated. 

The next day I got the lead, and her ears went down and she went and hid in the bedroom. 

I was heartbroken because she was afraid of me. I loved her and would never hurt her in a million years. But she looked like a beat her with a stick. 

I did have to throw out everything I knew about training dogs. My previous dog, a male GSD, who was a pain in the rear, not afraid of anything, stubborn, head strong, etc. Well, I had to yell at him to do anything with him. And my girl did not like yelling at all. She did not care about toys or treats. I had to motivate her totally with praise. I based everything on the premise that she wanted to please me. If she did not get something right, then I did not teach it effectively. Communication is on the communicator. So, I could not punish her for not performing because the problem was on my end. And when I changed that in my brain, our training sessions became awesome because I figured out how to make it happy, successful, and fun. If we did not do something right the first time, we tried a different way, but did not dwell on anything negative, and spent most of the training practicing stuff we could do, and do well. I through that 30 minute stay out the window. 

By the end of the 8 week class, she could have gotten her CD. We could work on lead, off lead, and do all the different exercises. She was head of her class. At the time, I was not interested in showing. 

We did stays in class, but they were 1 minute and 3 minute stays, and that was the only time I practiced them. But after the classes were over, I would take her out and do a bunch of exercises. I would put her on a down stay and run away from her. I would run over to her and leap over her. I'd have her down stay, and run off and then turn and call her and then drop her in the middle. This was a mistake, as she wouldn't run full tilt at me after that, always expecting to be dropped. But I had a lot of fun training her. 

At a show, I had her take the CGC test. Supervised separation was just a down stay, handing the leash off and hiding behind a car. I was informed that she never moved. 

She got her CD years later. First places for all three legs. She was just a fun dog to do things with. I could walk her off-lead through a group of drunken smokers. I could walk her all over town off lead. She was a special girl. I had to learn a different way to communicate with her. I could talk to her in sentences, conversations, and she knew what I wanted before I asked. I could not yell at all at her and I learned a better method of communicating with my boy too, because SHE did not like yelling. It was more than that though. Dogs gravitate toward stable. And acting unstable makes a sensitive dog less trusting. SHE taught me to communicate/train. SHE taught me to manage her by disciplining myself. SHE taught be about being consistent in my body language, and consistent in training. 

The problem you have is that your dog is not 100% reliant on you for everything, especially companionship. Dogs are not solitary creatures. They want to be a part of the group. But when you have a group, they can pick and choose who to gravitate towards and who they may gravitate away from. I live alone, and Arwen had no choice but to train me into someone she could live with. Your dog can pick and choose. 

I think you can overcome this. It just may take some doing. It may be helpful to have a trainer.


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