# How to teach fuss without getting you hand eatten?



## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I have been trying to teach Aspen a proper fuss. However, he constantly chomps on my fingers going after the treat in my hand I am using to "bait" him. I wear a glove, but it still HURTS!!! Any ideas? I will be seeing my trainer tomorrow to ask him (He's my student for the next 2 days..heehee)


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Teach him an 'easy' command. Do not give treats if he is being an *** about it. He KNOWS how sharp his teeth are and he KNOWS he's hurting you. 
I keep the treat and let the dog chew on me until they realize its not getting them anywhere. If they are being real mean about it, depending on the situation I give a correction or stop training.
This is for ADULT dogs. Puppy, be gentle and just say easy and only give treat when they are being gentle with it.

Edit: 7-24-10...dogs 9 months old? I wouldn't use a correction collar, but a small correction wouldnt hurt.

Can you use a tug instead of treats for teaching fuss? I found its helping the 'watch me' part.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Keep the treat in your mouth and spit it at him. Teaches awesome eye contact.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Feed a small meal first.
or you can teach "easy" but do that away from training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've found that using smaller, softer treats and having me actually push the treat into the dog's mouth with my finger avoids the chomping. I like to hold my hand *exactly* where I want the dog's head to be when heeling. I like them to push up in the rear through the head but not actually be jumping and snapping, so not too high because that DOES hurt and the dog is not really learning how to heel, just chomping at food. I'm not sure how exactly to describe it but if I do it so that I am the one pushing the treat in, I don't really get chomped on. If I'm letting the dog take the treat from my fingers...yeah ouch. I hold my hand on the left side of the dog's muzzle. So far I haven't had too bad of a chomping problem and this dog is a food driven as any! Here are some quick stills, in the first you can see I'm pushing food in with my index finger:
















Teaching an easy command and taking it nice is fine but it really depends on the dog. My dogs have very high food motivation and as young puppies I'm using that to my advantage and trying to elevate the level of intensity and drive. I don't want the puppy heeling along with good intensity and then having to stop, pause, bring the dog down several notches just to take a treat from my hand.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Also take a good look at how Liesje handle the treat, specially in the last pic. She doesn't hold it with the fingers, but more with the thumb on the palm. 

Using gloves will only makes things worst, IMHO, because the dog learns it is OK to bite, even pretty hard if he only get the tip of the finger of the glove without you actual finger there. Also you lose sensibility on when to release the treat, making him have to try harder and you lose coordination.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Excellent explanation and illustration, Lies. When done correctly in that way Lies described, you should feel this tension in your hand - where you are pushing down onto the dog's muzzle and simultaneously the dog is pushing up against your hand. It will feel almost like a fight between you two: you telling the pup to stay down and the pup goes: no, I want to go up!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Catu, I don't like using gloves either. Sometimes I use them for tug toys but that is more for grip and avoiding callouses and "burns" from wrapping the string around my fingers than because of biting.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Keep the treat in your mouth and spit it at him. Teaches awesome eye contact.


Not to mention it is great entertainment when you first begin teaching them the treats come from your mouth. I nearly choked laughing so hard when I first started doing that with Hondo. He now thinks I'm a human pez dispenser.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Good description Lilie.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

You could also teach impulse control so that the dog isn't so aggressive in taking the treat. Susan Garrett has a method (I doubt she invented this) demonstrated here (see around 1:27). You teach the dog how to take the treat calmly:





That said, for Schutzhund, maybe you _don't want _to teach them to not be aggressive with their mouth because of bite work. This I have no experience with.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Training for schutzhund does not mean your dog gets to consume your hand for a cookie.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

If you palm the treat like Lies and Catu were talking about, you will be fine. If you hold the treat out by your fingers ... yeah, you are most likely going to get bit.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Good example of the palm technique.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know this person but she has some great videos. I love the "ooo shiny" moment when the puppy is distracted by a dry leaf.

Untitled on Vimeo



> That said, for Schutzhund, maybe you _don't want _to teach them to not be aggressive with their mouth because of bite work. This I have no experience with.


It's not really about aggression and using the mouth, especially when were talking food for obedience (as opposed to actual bitework), and with a puppy. Using food this way is hardly unique to SchH. When I go to puppy class everyone is training this way, from GSDs to toy sized dogs. Most of the time I've gotten chomped or see people get chomped has to do with how the food is held and delivered, not so much that the dog is actually being aggressive or even overly chompy. My issue with a puppy being *too* bouncy and chompy is not so much that it hurts me but when I see a dog like this I don't think they are really learning, just jumping around snapping at treat (same can be said for training with toys). There is a nice golden middle between a dog bordering out of control and making the handler bleed, and using too much impulse control when you do want the dog to be very motivated and pushy as Jason described.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I can't help but wonder (please correct me- I'm sure I'm wrong) how the palm technique is _correcting_ the problem. Is it not just _managing_ the problem? I think I would want to teach impulse control and correct it... For me, I want to be able to treat my dog without having to think about how to hold the treat. My dog should never snap at my hand unless we are ruff housing or something like that.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think it is a different technique than just a reward given for a behavior. In the examples, the dog is nibbling the food while moving in position. When doing this, it is good to provide the best hand/plate delivery to the dog or the technque won't go smoothly.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Samba said:


> I think it is a different technique than just a reward given for a behavior. In the examples, the dog is nibbling the food while moving in position. When doing this, it is good to provide the best hand/plate delivery to the dog or the technque won't go smoothly.


Ah- I can see that perspective. And I suppose that perspective better applies to the OP's question. I was thinking about treating in general... So yeah, makes sense. Thanks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It is the difference between true freeshaping, and using a lure/reward technique. What you are talking about (having a dog offer a behavior, THEN marking it and giving the reward) is freeshaping. The videos and photos illustrate "luring", where the treat is used to physically manipulate the dog into the position/behavior we want and reward, lure/reward technique.

For example, here the reward (toy or food - use both with this dog) is held out of sight, often behind the dog's head b/c that's natural for me. The dog knows to heel and show focus, not trying to twist backward and snap at the food or toy. When I want to reward the dog, I say "yes, OK" and move the treat forward for the dog to snatch or pop the toy up so he can grab it and tug.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

samba said:


> training for schutzhund does not mean your dog gets to consume your hand for a cookie.


lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Keep the treat in your mouth and spit it at him. Teaches awesome eye contact.


Thats what I do. I use hot dog bits so it doesn't taste * completely* disgusting


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

hunterisgreat said:


> Thats what I do. I use hot dog bits so it doesn't taste * completely* disgusting


String cheese also works well. Not something you'd want to try with Begg'n-strips.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Very true. Of course spitting won't help with luring techniques and would be dangerous for the lips!

The only time I want face focus is on a front but even then I don't find spitting the food from the mouth that needed. I take it down with both hands from mouth to dog to keep them close and feed in position. On heeling, I don't want the face as focal point due to wrapping it can create and the aim needs to be so accurate. Gave it up as a technique but I remember it's popularity some years ago.

As far as putting dog food in my mouth, Beggin' Strips wouldn't be too bad. I have even put frozen Bil-jac in my mouth. Now that is hardcore!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba said:


> On heeling, I don't want the face as focal point due to wrapping it can create and the aim needs to be so accurate. Gave it up as a technique but I remember it's popularity some years ago.


That is one thing to be careful about spitting food for heeling. Once the dog figures out the reward come from your mouth and, in a more general sense, from the center line of your body, he will start wrapping himself around you in heeling.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Good stuff there Jason and Samba. Learn something new every day.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

My dog is doing ok in SchH, no problems with drive, and I taught him impulse control FIRST, before I taught him anything else. Including working with treats as a lure or a toy as a reward.


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