# Agressive Dogs



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Some say that the threads posted here about aggressive dogs are the minority. It has been said that people whose dogs behave aren't likely to post and tell folks what a wonderfully behaved dog they have. 
Even if that is the case I believe ther are too many aggressive dog situations these days. 
Too many people make excuses for the behavior.
In my opinion, regardless of how a dog gets that way there is no excuse for the dog to be allowed to be in a position to harm someone and they should not be around the general public.
There are lots of opinions on what to do with these dogs.
I'm sure others will disagree but I think there are only several options. Get whatever help is needed to train and socialize until the dog is trustworthy, confine the dog for life maybe so that it never has the opportunity, or if those two things aren't possible then unfortunately euthanize.
The last may seem wrong to some but I believe all people have a right not to be attacked or to suffer a bite just because someone does not want to be responsible.
There are some dogs with such bad nerves that trainers and behaviorists may not be able to help.
I live in California and we are getting real close to breed bans. Homeowners insurance is either denied or very expensive if you have a GSD and some other breeds. So everytime another story comes out about GSD's we are that much closer.
A little off topic but they are also making life tougher for reputable breeders. If it's this way in Calif. I'm sure other areas are looking at these issues too.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Well said JacksDad. I agree and wish more would realize their "little nips" turn into bites and more aggressive GSD stories.
Used to live in California, still have lots of family and friends there and it seems to be getting worse and worse with dogs and breed bans.
How sad.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Most bites are IMO not aggression cases but fearful behavior combined with clueless dog owners.

IMO bite/nip #1- immediately begin working on issue with a trainer/behaviorist, a vet visit wouldn't hurt, always have control of the dog, muzzle if taken in public... remove all chances dog has to bite and make a plan to be diligent at all times to keep your dog safe and others safe.

If bite #1 is severe (mauling) then the owner has probably failed to notice warnings long before then and sadly the dog should be put down. 

If a person puts down a dog for a minor bite/nip without trying to work on the dog's issues and was not forced to by legal action then IMO that person should not own a dog again. 

Bite/nip #2- should never happen. If the owner has been following rules from bite #1 then they need to figure out if they are in over their head or not and re evaluate the situation. Putting the dog down may be the best option but I would not think less of them for trying and failing.

Obviously if this was a good bite (protection from a real threat) none of this applies. I would make sure there are no negative effects on the dog after though.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also agree people really need to face reality and start being responsible with these dogs..........

i do think there are just as many irresponsible breeders as responsible ones out there, and breeders that really don't know enough about pairing lines and the results are nervy, fearful, unstable dogs...........

on the other hand there are people out there that want a pet in this breed and are not responsible enough or are ignorant of the importance of training and socializing and proper care of a dog, and are not educated in the lines they are getting........so, pair together a genetic dud with one of these folks and disaster happens..........

not everyone out there is a seasonaed dog trainer and or behviorist, so i can see why people come on here and are devistated when their dog has bitten someone............some of these people might have had gsd's all their lives and were lucky enough to have stable temps and easy going dogs, then they get a fearfully aggressive dog bring it up the same way, little or no training and do not recognize the signs until something happens.......also, alot of people just don't want to put the time, training and money into a problem dog, its a huge commitment that not everyone wants.....

its really sad for this breed to gain a bad reputation, and i certainly hope the ban never somes to my state..........


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

sagelfn.

Yes I agree. Most are probably fear based but regardless of the cause your suggestions are very good.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Most bites are IMO not aggression cases but fearful behavior combined with clueless dog owners.
> 
> IMO bite/nip #1- immediately begin working on issue with a trainer/behaviorist, a vet visit wouldn't hurt, always have control of the dog, muzzle if taken in public... remove all chances dog has to bite and make a plan to be diligent at all times to keep your dog safe and others safe.
> 
> ...


I agree. So many are in denial about the danger their dog is to the public. Either that or they believe they can fix it by throwing enough money at the problem (trainers and behaviorists). There are bites and there are nips and they should be evaluated differently. Bite #2 could be bite#1 if the first one was a nip and the circumstance were different. Each case is unique and you have to be honest about the dog's potential for harm as compared to his/her potential for rehabilitation.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

A person has to be honest about the bite or nip or whatever. Honest, not half truths or leaving out important parts of the bite. I think many come on here talking about a bite or nip as if it is not significant, just something that happens and blames the person getting bit for whatever reason.
A bite to a human is not acceptable.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Umm yeah hey, you're making some kind of insane assumption here that people CARE. That they'll take the TIME and EFFORT. Crazy you!

Most won't bother, they just want a strong studly dog. THOSE people you will never see here or any forum UNTIL maybe that studly dog bites their child, the neighbor child or some awful thing. But, probably not even then. 

Trainers cost money, so forget that option. Obedience? Really? Nah. You do that in the back yard with fear-training. **** you're lucky if they attend to basic veterinary needs.

C'mon now, the majority of people get a dog and expect it'll just sit there, look cool, eat a lil bit, run around a lil bit, guard the house and go to sleep.

I'm new here and frustrated with some posts, but they're reaching for help. That's more than a LOT of idiot dog owners do. So many run around oblivious to the fact their dog is a frikkin wild bully! Just saw a guy like that at the park a few weeks ago - CRAZY dog and the owner is like DUH, letting this neurotic lab pup go insane on a retractable, jumping, lunging, going NUTS and the high owner just smiling... I was getting ready with what I was gonna say if he even tried bringing that dog close to us.. (he didn't)

In my area, the dog to watch out for is the Pit. We have a LOT of scary Pits and Pit mixes here. I hope and pray the GSD doesn't earn a spot on a dog ban list... but there actually aren't many in this area. Keeping fingers crossed.

I feel your pain, JacksDad, but so many just can't/won't put the intense time, energy, money into any of it. The ones who make it here actually care, even if some of us are misguided at times.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> A bite to a human is not acceptable.


Totally agree. I do not think it is an automatic death sentence either.

**ETA** adding to someone's earlier comment
I would not treat a bite vs nip any different. Both are serious. To the person nipped it is probably a bite to them.

When I was a kid a Dalmatian bit/nipped me. Broke the skin but not a gripping bite. Back of my ankle and my butt as I rode by their house on my scooter. Back then it was my fault for being so close to the dog. The dog was later put down for attacking the mailman for a second time.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Just depends on how far the owners keep playing the hide their head in the sand game when their dog bites or nips before they accept what is happening and quits making excuses.
Nephew is scarred for life, his ear is partially gone to make a new nose, his face is scarred. Dalmation bit or should I say mauled him at his friends house. Kids had been around this dog, in the yard, playing with him many many times. Only after the dog was destroyed did the family admit it had 'nipped" a few times before, but not a big deal. Bet my nephew wishes he had been told the dog just "nipped" a few times.
Sorry, a biting dog usually starts out with a nip or growl, then progresses to biting and mauling.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chelle:

I agree that Joe average dog owner is about like what you described and is not interested in dog forums. Maybe some of what we say here may actually leak out to where it may do some good.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm not one for making rules on when to put down a dog and when not to. Each situation is different and each person is different. It's also impossible to put yourself in the person's shoes when their beloved dog makes a mistake. My only gripe with "aggressive dog" threads is that everyone always says how "protective" their GSD is and how often its just a fearful dog. I'll admit to not knowing the difference before I got on this forum, but I got on this forum when my dog was two months old, not when he was two years old and biting. Sadly most people only want to learn after their dog something wrong and not before. I don't think that there is anything we can do to change that and we will keep seeing these threads.

The protective GSD that barks his head off at every passing thing is exactly what people want. No one cares about the true reason the dog is freaking out.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Nephew is scarred for life, his ear is partially gone to make a new nose, his face is scarred.


 I am so sorry and sad this happened to you; makes me understand you much better. Again, so sorry. 



martemchik said:


> I'll admit to not knowing the difference before I got on this forum, but I got on this forum when my dog was two months old, not when he was two years old and biting. Sadly most people only want to learn after their dog something wrong and not before.


 True enough; sad, isn't it. 



Jack's Dad said:


> Chelle: Maybe some of what we say here may actually leak out to where it may do some good.


 I really, deeply, honestly and truly hope you are right.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I'm not one for making rules on when to put down a dog and when not to. Each situation is different and each person is different. It's also impossible to put yourself in the person's shoes when their beloved dog makes a mistake. My only gripe with "aggressive dog" threads is that everyone always says how "protective" their GSD is and how often its just a fearful dog. I'll admit to not knowing the difference before I got on this forum, but I got on this forum when my dog was two months old, not when he was two years old and biting. Sadly most people only want to learn after their dog something wrong and not before. I don't think that there is anything we can do to change that and we will keep seeing these threads.
> 
> The protective GSD that barks his head off at every passing thing is exactly what people want. No one cares about the true reason the dog is freaking out.


Yep. It's kind of like the Bully breed owners with the spiked collars or big chains on their dogs. They are very proud of how tough they and their dogs are.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

It is currently against state law for cities and counties to ban breeds in CA. Rather amazing, considering what else goes on here, but true.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is another effect of the dog right proponents maybe. The dogs have the right not to be discriminated against!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Aside from genetics which plays a big part in potentially aggressive or reactive dogs. There are owners who either want to impress with how tough and protective their GSD's are or the other extreme where they treat their dogs like children. These individuals believe their dogs think like humans and have the same emotional reactions that humans display under certain situations. Remarks like " my dog is disappointed in me because I didn't protect her" is an example of this.

I love my dog but he's a dog and needs me to be in charge and set the boundaries. If I don't do that then problems can occur regardless of his breeding. Wouldn't be his fault it would be mine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack'sDad, I am glad you started this thread. 

My very first GSD I put down due to aggression. It was entirely my fault. I picked the wrong dog, from the wrong breeder, from the wrong lines for me. I was working and going to school, and I did not believe in crates. I did not think about dog classes until after he shattered the long bone in his front leg. I did not have the money to put a rod in, so we let it heal as the vet recommended, through constant crating for eight weeks -- out two times a day to potty. It healed crooked. But he had significant pain in that leg for the rest of his 7.5 years. After his leg was messed up, obedience training really did not make sense.

By the time he was 15 months old, I had already gotten him out of the house during the day, and chained him in the back yard, because he was so destructive. After the leg was broken and I found that crates were indeed my friend, I had him back inside during the day. But he was an energetic, young dog, with no manners, and no training, and bad leadership.

When did I first become concerned with his aggression? Probably 10 weeks old the day I brought him home, and he went full out at the neighbor's adult labrador. The dog was pretty good with me though. My neighbor's kid once told me he chase him up a tree once -- probably one of the times he broke his chain. Hard to say. But he never bit anyone. At about three years, I introduced him to my friends two little girls, about 2 and 3 years old. They looked at him and he did a low growl. I put him back in his crate. It was puzzling, but I did not know anything, figured he was just not good with children. Well, how could he be? He had NEVER met any. 

As he got older, I noticed him growling more and even lunging at my sister when she bent down to blow him a kiss. He was kenneled at that point -- I had moved and put up a kennel for when I could not be right with the dogs. 

My yard was not fenced at the time, so when I took him out, if he went off the property, I would get his leash and walk the property line again, jerking him if he went over the line. He started snarling at me for this. I figured it was his leg, and stopped. 

I was pet sitting for a little GSD bitch, and she was in heat. I separated them with a baby gate, which Frodo did not EVER try to get around -- one time when a puppy, he was playing with a plastic bottle while I was on the phone, I picked it up and threw it over the baby gate, and he sailed after it crashing the babygate and making one heck of a racket with me yelling to boot, he never bothered a baby gate after that. Anyhow, he showed some aggression to my other bitch, not letting her eat while the other was in the other part of the house. I was getting ready for work and was frustrated and yelled at him and said he had to be crated and grabbed his collar and he closed around my wrist not breaking the skin. I guess that was a warning. I escalated, so did he. He bit me one time getting three of my fingers. 

If I knew then what I know now, so many things would have been different. So many mistakes. Such stupidity. That I had put him out on a chain for a while -- it does not make me an ogre. That is how I was raised. Dogs were generally kept out back and chained, especially if they cannot be house-broken. Now he was definitely house-broken, in that he NEVER pottied in the house after being a puppy (until I got my next dog, at the new house). But it was not safe to leave him in the house -- he literally did eat my couch one day.

I put the dog down. Frodo, my dream of having a GSD. Noble, brave, intelligent, loyal. All the expectations. He was really none of those. But he could have been, if I would have known what I was doing. But there were kids next door, and I thought that it was very possible for this dog to go after one of them. So I did not check if he was low on vitamin B or if he had a thyroid issue. I did not scour the net for some type of training/behaviorist. I took him to the vet. He had a badly healed leg that gave him trouble for years, and perhaps made his fuse short. 

If he had bitten a jogger or a cyclist or the kid next door, there had been warning signs. That would have been my fault too. He was a huge failure, but I learned a lot from him. If I did not have better luck with my second GSD, I might have given up on the breed. 

It was a death sentence. It was one bite, and inhibited at that, though at the time, with three bloody fingers, I did not realize that. I think I was probably just lucky that he never bit anyone else. I only half believed the kid up the tree story. Frodo did not seem that concerned about the people on either side of me, though my landlords when he was a pup said he was more of a ladies dog, I guess he liked the wife more than the husband and sons. 

But when he broke his leg, I disassembled the travel crate, and had him walk into the bottom of it. Then The neighbors son backed their Chevette up as far as he could, and then he came back and we carried the dog together by the crate, with his head right there face to face with Matt. He was very much in pain and scared at the time. But he did not act aggressive in any way. 

The dog was not a bad dog, I was a bad owner. If he was not disabled and in pain, he could have been worked with by leadership, training, and exercise. 

I guess I can understand when people new to the breed, or even people who have just not had a shepherd with temperament issues, fail to manage the dog properly. I can understand them not wanting to put the dog down, especially if they feel that they failed. I think that if they think they can change their leadership style and give the dog the training and exercise the dog needs, they should give it a shot. 

I think though, because there is that tendency to minimize the dog's behavior even in our own brains, sometimes people giving advice need to shoot from the hip, and not mince words for fear the person become angry and go away. 1. The dog needs to be managed. You need to take responsibility, etc. 2. The dog needs to be trained, leadership, etc. To save the dog's LIFE, it is not a time for, pretty sweet dancing around issues. 

And, unless you are willing AND able to go the whole nine yards, put the dog down. This takes honesty, honesty to one's self, that goes past the emotional attachment you have for the dog. And, you will have to live with your decision. The only thing worse I think would be having to let your dog be euthanized by court order, or because you cannot keep him due to insurance. 

I think this is why it is so upsetting to me when people let threads like this get muddied by people's protectiveness toward a new member. And the whole thing becomes you are mean, you are bullies, the new guy is just going to leave. This is really, really serious, and if the new guy does not take it seriously, it will be so much worse.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Selzer for taking the time to tell your story.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Selzer. Like I said before you have a way with words.

What I know about dogs or GSD's is very little compared to many on this forum and my "experience" is a lot like what you described. Most of it came through learning from mistakes not from some vast knowledge about dogs.
I do however have lots of experience in being responsible for what I take on.
Taking on the responsibility of any other living creature is a big deal. GSD's Are a really big deal. If anyone wants to really add to their list of responsibilities get a horse. That can be some real fun.


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