# Grain Free Dog Food



## Kejasa

Hi everyone,

I've been looking for a good dog food to feed my upcoming puppy. Can someone tell me why grain free dog food is better for dogs? I have heard conflicting stories, from "dogs don't normally eat grain" to "the animals dogs would hunt in the wild would eat grain, therefore dogs would eat grain everytime they ate the stomach contents of wild animals." What confuses me most is that it seems the grain free dog foods have just replaced grains with potatoes, and dogs wouldn't normally eat potatoes in the wild either. So why is grain free better?

Thanks for your thoughts!


----------



## selzer

I don't think they are better for puppies. 

I don't know that they are better for adults. I agree that potatoes and peas are just as unlikely for dogs to eat than rice or wheat. I think what you want is meat for the most part, or at least a healthy proportion of meat.


----------



## ChancetheGSD

You're correct, most DO replace the grains with potatoes, or the most recent trend is peas. I personally feel that a good grain inclusive brand is just as good, I've never had a problem feeding these to my dogs. Pups grew up strong and healthy and went on to live long, happy and healthy lives.


----------



## chloesmama2

I chose grain free in Blue Buffalo because she has so many allergies. I was recommended tosee how this works on her. So far have not noticed much a difference but dealing with Pano right now


----------



## Monster'sDad

Grain free foods are no better. Allergies to grains are statistically insignifcant totalling about 5% of all allergies, all grains combined. Common animal proteins are the real sources of allergies, even though allergies to foods are extremely rare.

Buy a simple chicken and mixed grain food with 25% - 30% protein and 15% - 20% fat without things like pea protein, corn gluten, potato protein, etc. These are protein concentrates.

Ironically, you will find that expensive grain free foods have very large amounts of pea protein and other pea ingredients.

If anyone starts in with what dogs eat in the wild that is a sign the person doesn't know a thing about dogs. Just avoid them. Dogs don't eat kibble in the wild so the person's argument is already flawed. Domesticated dogs eat much better than wolves, even on lower grade foods.

Stick with brands that have a strong background in competition, these are generally the best foods, and usually the best value.

Do you want specific suggestions? If so where do you live and where do you shop?


----------



## NancyJ

It is your choice and many schools of thought on this and it generates a lot of controversy. For some reason people get TERRIBLY emotional and irrational about their dog food. [my theory is they are using the wifi at MickyD's while eating that synthetic food and drinking their HFCS laden colas while posting and the sugar and salt rush addles their brains - no worry a good smoke after breakfast will clear their heads.]

Most do tend to agree, however, that excess calcium can create problems with bone development and there are some sticky notes on selecting a puppy food in the "feeding our puppy" secion of the puppy part of the forum you may want to read.

That said, many of the high protein dogs foods (more typical with grain free) are very high in calcium as well. At a minimum you want to make sure food is labeled "all life stages" but others want to shoot for 1.5% or less which excludes a lot of foods but too low could create other problems-Adequate but not excessive calcium is required in the diet.

Not all grains are created equal either. Some have high gluten (such as wheat) and can be implicated in more problems. Corn is one of the more rabidly controversial ingredients and corn could wind up being a whole thread on its own as well as which carbohydrates are the "best" (because food manufacturing process requires carbs for the manufacturing process). Same issues with potatoes vs sweet potatoes and peas.

I fed a puppy food, Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold and was happy on my pups development. Now that he is older and starting to do a lot of training in the heat I am shooting for higher protein/fat levels and figuring out what I am feeding. My own choice will minimize the number of Genetically Modified ingredients [ corn, soy, canola, beets and others] as I think they are bad news (but I can do that....... make choices someone else thinks is totally stupid  and not take it personally when they chide me for it )


----------



## GatorBytes

LOL :laugh: Jocoyn (about the McD part), I am one of those, sort of (more out of neccessity to fill the hole as my dog has broke the bank), If having the right advice along the way (and yes even under the care of a holistic vet), I and my dog would be in a better place. That is why I am so vehement about feeding and what NOT to include in food. I got my dog at 1yr. old, he already had issues that I have been working on for 7 yrs. now. I played the kibble food trial game for 3 yrs. before switching to grain free RAW. I research and research, not just food, but vitamins, minerals, herbals, fats and the role these play in metabolic processes in the body. Despite all the work and expence I have put into his diet...something just isn't working. And let me tell you it wasn't for lack of me trying to get this addressed (to the point I dumped my holistic vet and considered the threat of malpractice - she incidently was a pioneer in the holistic vet world and is highly respected - however, she kept dismissing my concerns w/his digestive issues and blood work I wanted done, guess she thought she was my banker too!) What has happened as result is that I have a dog who has suffered needlessly and at almost 8 yrs. old repairing the damage may not be achievable, but preventing further and fixing where I can - I know now I can do. 

The last thing I learned (and I would have saved a LOT of money on suppliments) was what I was doing wrong in his diet. I didn't use grains or potatoes or peas, but I did use a lot of carrots, green and yellow beans, broccoli, cauliflower, as well kale and spinach and recently dandylion (all cooked and grinded down for "easy digestion".

My dog cannot digest fats, so his RAW feeding is very very expensive.

Looking at Carbohydrates, including high carb./glycemic veg (potatoes, carrots, etc.), Protein and Fat. 

Protein and fat is where carnivores get there fuel from. Protein nourishes the muscles and is needed for red blood cell production which is needed to deliver oxygen to all cells in the body. It contains all the essential and non essential enzymes and amino acids that are required to do this (in RAW form) 

Fat's provide energy and used for the protection of fatty membranes such as the mylein sheath that covers nerve endings and is needed by the Brain (and so much more, but readers digest version). So taking this into consideration, look at the role of carbs.

Carbohydrates are a fast source of fuel. The body uses this first. When the body does this it negates from forcing it to use fats. This energy - sugars and simple sugars cause spikes in insulin - this taxes the pancreas and stresses the endocrine system - hormonal modulator (adrenals, thyroid, thalamus, pancreas). 
By adding grains and glycemic veg (potatoes highest), you are weakening the body from the rebound effect of insulin spikes (leads to diabetes). 

The fats now, that aren't used start to putrify in the gut causing digestive upsets. Fat is the hardest to digest, Plus phytosterols compete with cholesterol for uptake by the intestines...so now the body is working harder to process and getting weaker. (This doen't even touch on the pathogens in the GI tract that proliferate causing even more stress)

When the body stops recognizing or dosen't use fats as fuel because it has carbs., the neurological pathways start to degenerate (break in the connection/misfiring, this leading to seizures, ataxia, degenerative mylopathy), as cushioning in joints start to break down (aging process), there's nothing protecting the nerve endings (mylein sheath) causing pain and permanant damage. You put enviromental elements on top of this - water, vaccines (heavy metals), w/o the protection...you have a recipe for degenerative disease processes

If you look at epilepsy and the ketogenic diet (for humans), it would better explain this. 

So in essence - grain free, carbohydrate free, low glycemic


----------



## Good_Karma

Feed what works for your dog based on trial and error. Buy the best quality food you can afford and that your dog enjoys. Ignore everyone else.


----------



## GatorBytes

Good_Karma said:


> Feed what works for your dog based on trial and error. Buy the best quality food you can afford and that your dog enjoys. Ignore everyone else.


Yes, ignore biology...add some sour cream to that potato for the probiotic.

feeding appropriately - there won't be need for trial as there is no error


----------



## Jax08

Good_Karma said:


> Feed what works for your dog based on trial and error. Buy the best quality food you can afford and that your dog enjoys. Ignore everyone else.


:thumbup:

Not everyone can afford special, holistic, dog foods. Not everyone can afford RAW or have the freezer space to allocate to it.

We have a Boxer that does very well on Canidae ALS. The other animals get RAW. It's nuts but take it up with DH.

Some dogs need more grains/veges in their diets due to disease. Our old Boxer is a perfect example of that. She has CRF and must have meals with less phosphorus in it so part of her nutrients must come from another source. Puppies must have a lower calcium percentage so shouldn't be on most grain free kibbles.

Just like people, what works for one will not work for others. Every living creature on earth has individual needs for their system. Just like people, you don't know if there is a food intolerance until after you've eaten something!

So do the research into the foods, choose one and if there are no problems, continue to feed it!


----------



## Monster'sDad

jocoyn said:


> It is your choice and many schools of thought on this and it generates a lot of controversy. For some reason people get TERRIBLY emotional and irrational about their dog food. [my theory is they are using the wifi at MickyD's while eating that synthetic food and drinking their HFCS laden colas while posting and the sugar and salt rush addles their brains - no worry a good smoke after breakfast will clear their heads.]
> 
> Most do tend to agree, however, that excess calcium can create problems with bone development and there are some sticky notes on selecting a puppy food in the "feeding our puppy" secion of the puppy part of the forum you may want to read.
> 
> That said, many of the high protein dogs foods (more typical with grain free) are very high in calcium as well. At a minimum you want to make sure food is labeled "all life stages" but others want to shoot for 1.5% or less which excludes a lot of foods but too low could create other problems-Adequate but not excessive calcium is required in the diet.
> 
> Not all grains are created equal either. Some have high gluten (such as wheat) and can be implicated in more problems. Corn is one of the more rabidly controversial ingredients and corn could wind up being a whole thread on its own as well as which carbohydrates are the "best" (because food manufacturing process requires carbs for the manufacturing process). Same issues with potatoes vs sweet potatoes and peas.
> 
> I fed a puppy food, Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold and was happy on my pups development. Now that he is older and starting to do a lot of training in the heat I am shooting for higher protein/fat levels and figuring out what I am feeding. My own choice will minimize the number of Genetically Modified ingredients [ corn, soy, canola, beets and others] as I think they are bad news (but I can do that....... make choices someone else thinks is totally stupid  and not take it personally when they chide me for it )


Corn is not a controversial ingredient in the eyes of science and research, but it is in dog parks because of the many dog food forums.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Monster'sDad said:


> Corn is not a controversial ingredient in the eyes of science and research, but it is in dog parks because of the many dog food forums.


Good thing most people here aren't big advocates of dog parks.


----------



## NancyJ

Monster'sDad said:


> Corn is not a controversial ingredient in the eyes of science and research, but it is in dog parks because of the many dog food forums.


I do not have an issue with corn but the overwhelming majority of feed corn, actually corn in general is GMO and there IS scientific debate on the topic. One of many aritcles.

And even IF the product is labeled for Europe with "non GMO" ingredients, effectively ALL corn has been infected with GMO genetics. I think some of the red and blue variants have resisted the pollen a little better. As folks say... "There is no such thing as organic corn anymore"

FWIW, never been to a dog park.

Debate on GMOs Health Risks after Statistical Findings in Regulatory Tests


----------



## GatorBytes

Monster'sDad said:


> Corn is not a controversial ingredient in the eyes of science and research, but it is in dog parks because of the many dog food forums.


It is controversial in dogs because of the glycemic load that spike insulin levels. It is also due to the by-product used as inexpensive filler that also bulks stool giving the illusion that the dog is having good poops so therefore digesting well and the food is agreeing so the business of dog food can continue to swell profits.

Now if a dog food company is pumping out Good quality protein derived from meat then the cost of a bag of food (30lbs) is going to be excessive, however you fill it with nonessential proteins (grains, corn) and add those fractions, they end up being the main "protein" source in the food. These are carbohydrates and do not produce sustainable energy, but in fact rob the energy from the body to use what it needs which is the fats for neuro function.

And then you factor in these less expensive foods and what source of corn. AT 30 bucks a bag you can be assured it isn't organic - it's Frankencorn. GMO.


----------



## GatorBytes

Here's a simple to read glycemic index

Glycemic Index


----------



## selzer

I think the reason corn is considered such a nasty ingredient is because it is usually accompanied with ingredients like meat and bone meal, molasses, animal fat, and other generic or mystery fillers, and yes, there isn't much that isn't GMO. Corn or cornmeal is considered a cheap filler, and the products that contain it usually are trying to cut corners everywhere. 

I think that if you feed your dogs vitamins and supplements and the whole nine yards, the only thing you need to worry about is carcinogens, and those foods that sport cornmeal as one of their primary ingredients usually contain a variety of carcinogens, preservatives and artificial colors, etc. 

I was feeding a food that contained corn in a prominent position for about two years. I was sold on the food because it supposedly had nothing from China, the corn was not GMO, it was not packaged or manufactured by Diamond, and it was supposedly created by a nutritionist hired by an owner who wanted to ensure that the food would not contribute to cancer. 

While my dogs gained back the weight they lost on Canidae, and they no longer had bouts of colitis, their stools were never decent. I am back to feeding rice as my main grain now. My girls are doing good on it.


----------



## NancyJ

One comment on the Glycemic Index read. There is no argument - carbs are not necessary for dogs (they are for us in small amounts) and they have an impact on blood glucose i.e., dogs exhibit glucose and insulin level responses to carbs as do we.

But, I gather dogs actually respond differently to different foods than humans from the bits and peices I gather that fiber does not have quite the glucose flattening effect for them that it does for us...so that the glycemic index numbers may not be directly transferable.


----------



## Wolfgeist

I'll start by saying that I feed raw for one basic reason: dogs and other carnivorous canines are biologically designed to eat raw meat, raw bone and raw organ. I do my best to care for my dog in a way that is natural for him, which reflects who he is biologically.

I spent many, many long years researching a wolf pack in Haliburton, Ontario. This pack had no human interaction, but was kept in a 15 acre enclosure. They were observed through one way glass. Every time they were giving a carcass, they would leave the stomach contents. This happened every single time I watched them eat. They typically do not eat the stomach contents of their prey, unless they are starving and/or dying. 

I do not support grain based kibble UNLESS the dog has a medical condition in which a specialized diet is necessary. I support grain free kibble simply because it more closely resembles their appropriate diet. If you have to feed a kibble, feed a grain-free kibble with a good ingredient read... whole foods, little to no filler, etc. 

I went to school for Animal Care. While in Haliburton I learned how to feed raw from the wolf biologist I studied with as well as a woman who had been feeding raw to her rescue wolf dogs for over 25 years. I strongly believe in feeding raw - but the next best thing is a grain-free high meat kibble such as Orijen or Acana.

My humble opinion...


----------



## Jax08

Wild Wolf said:


> Every time they were giving a carcass, they would leave the stomach contents. This happened every single time I watched them eat. They typically do not eat the stomach contents of their prey, unless they are starving and/or dying.


Why have I read that dogs need the "vegetation" from their preys stomachs and that is the reason to feed tripe? Where did that come from? Is it a misinterpretation of other information?


----------



## Wolfgeist

Jax08 said:


> Why have I read that dogs need the "vegetation" from their preys stomachs and that is the reason to feed tripe? Where did that come from? Is it a misinterpretation of other information?


Tripe is the stomach lining, rich in digestive enzymes and high in protein, vitamins and minerals. Ground tripe is emptied (although not cleaned), so they don't get much of the vegetation. They can eat it, but they don't *need* it. 

The wolves would open the stomach, shake the big green or brown blob of stomach contents loose and eat the stomach itself... the contents would sit there for days while other animals chowed down.


----------



## Jax08

So they are eating the stomach (tripe), just not the contents. Is it then true that as the vegetation breaks down in the stomach that the vitamins and minerals are left in the stomach lining and they are gaining nutrients that would be from vege/fruit items that they need?


----------



## Wolfgeist

Jax08 said:


> So they are eating the stomach (tripe), just not the contents. Is it then true that as the vegetation breaks down in the stomach that the vitamins and minerals are left in the stomach lining and they are gaining nutrients that would be from vege/fruit items that they need?


Correct, they are eating the actual stomach not the vegetable matter. I think the biggest benefit of eating tripe is the digestive enzymes on the lining - it's a great gastro boost for any animal to consume. Lots of nutrients and vitamins in and on the lining.


----------



## NancyJ

I know Carmen posted a picture of wolves feasting on berries. Much prey is also small animals consumed whole (and rabbits have a rich digestive flora) certainly dogs relish the feces of herbivores while avoiding that of other carnivores.

I did observe the same thing watching my own dogs eat a deer stomach (even though I had removed most of the vegetable matter on my own...yuk)--the shaking out the vegetable matter.

I agree the carb content as in refined foods is not necessary but have no idea why the potatoes would have any superiority over grains...they are no more a natural food to the dogs than grains. Acana has three different types of peas in it now - so other than the fact that peas have a lower glycemic index in humans than grain and a lot more proteins not sure why such a big deal?


----------



## Jax08

I think ppl got stuck on the "grain" thing during the food recalls. Potatoes and peas must be better because they aren't grain...but no real reasoning behind it.

It still does not make sense to me that dogs do not need vege/fruit on some level. I know I've observed my dog stealing tomatoes out of the garden, munching on the blueberries, grazing on grass (not for the purpose of a purge). I don't believe they need carbs but do believe the get something from these items.

What is the reason they eat the whole rabbit but leave the stomach of a deer? Maybe it's the amount of acid? Or is the acid somehow different? I think there are to many variables that are unknown (at least to me).


----------



## Kejasa

Thanks so much for sharing all of your thoughts. So I take it the grain free dog food is good for dogs with allergies but not necessarily "better" for other dogs. That clears up a lot for me. Thanks so much!


----------



## Jax08

Kejasa said:


> Thanks so much for sharing all of your thoughts. So I take it the grain free dog food is good for dogs with allergies but not necessarily "better" for other dogs. That clears up a lot for me. Thanks so much!


It depends on what the dog is allergic too. Grain free, IMO, is better for dogs unless there is an underlying medical condition where an ingredient (meat) has to be replaced with another protein source for some reason such as lowering phosphorus levels in a CRF dog.


----------

