# Nerd Out Dominance in Dogs



## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

More a discussion, not a question. I'm actually fascinated by animal behaviour and it drives me nuts when people say 'there's no such thing as dominance' and 'dominance debunked' usually in conjunction with 'science says', when science says no such thing. I love science, or the scientific method, properly done, exploratory.
There is some fascinating studies in dominance (and not particularly useful for training, but for study, for nerds like me). 
Found this one, Dominance in dogs as rated by owner I don't have multiple dogs, so I can't rate mine, but if you have multiple dogs, a good read, would love to hear your thoughts and observations.
Apologies in advance for my nerd-out, but yep, I'm a dog nerd, a sponge for any nerdilicious info I can find.
Mods, I did my best to drop this in the right forum, maybe chitchat, current affairs, behaviour? would have been better? Please swoosh if appropriate, I couldn't decide.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Just you and me today,lol!Everyone is off doing holiday things I guess.I've had multiple dogs for the past twenty years and what I've seen is it depends on the situation/ activity on which dog takes charge.They each have specialties so it's always been rather fluid.We did have a blue heeler for a few years that was a wannabe,very pushy and perpetually tried to bully the others.The other dogs and me refused to allow it but the little rascal persisted.Ended up rehoming him to a couple with a small farm where he was an only dog.So I really have no experience with a dominant dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I just glanced at the article and it looked like it was focused on disagreement as to what dominance is. True genetically dominate dogs are not that common and the concept of the alpha dog is largely a myth. Most issues of dominance arise with handlers who don't know how to raise and train a dog. Dominance is more about social interaction than aggression and is not automatically aggression. It is an urge to prove superiority and status/rank. In households where there is no leadership, many dogs will take on the role of the leader. This is learned dominance and different from genetic dominance. Both can lead to aggression because the dog wants to keep his rank. So,many dogs that show dominance in dysfunctional households would never show dominant behaviors if raised in a proper environment, whereas a genetically dominant dog will be dominant regardless or his environment. In the right hands with the right amount of dominance, the trait can bring power to bite work for police dogs or dogs in protection sports. In the wrong hands, it can and will become a major problem. In working breeds like GSDs, a genetically dominant dog that is too dominant is very challenging to train, no fun and a potential liability.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I studied animal behaviour in university, and I can state with absolute confidence that any animals that live in a group have a well-defined 'pecking order' or dominance structure. Those that say there's no such thing as dominance in dogs are spouting B.S.

I remember watching a TV special about dogs, and it tried to debunk the dominance theory by showing a young pup humping a much older dog. The narrator said that if the dominance theory were true, the older dog wouldn't allow this.

What any dog owner who REALLY knows dogs would have told the narrator is a) puppies get a puppy pass until they are about a year old, and then the more mature dogs will start putting them in their place for this sort of behavior, and b) If you'd looked at the body language of the older dog, it was not at ALL submissive. He was standing very stiff, with his tail raised. You could almost read his thoughts: "Okay, you're just a pup, so I'm putting up with this!"

Edit: Chip makes an excellent point, which I should have mentioned. Many people equate aggression with dominance. That just isn't true. A dog's efforts to dominate another CAN lead to aggression and fighting, but often dominance is asserted in much more subtle ways, for example, the stiff posture of the older male dog that was being humped by the puppy. As he says, it's more about social interaction and determining rank, and truly dominant dogs are a rarity.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

OOOhhhh, talk nerdy to me... thank you.
The article is actually outlining a study of having owners rank their dogs, I'll have a reread tonight though. And, yes, it does acknowledge the very real confusion over definitions of dominance (which I think gets perpetuated through simplistic memes and slogans and trainer wars, and on).
Meanwhile, in real science, they study these things.
Not sure if it's in the article, or I read it elsewhere, but in dogs, assessing dominance through which animal submits the most frequently, which I find interesting. 
I'll see if over days I can pull up more stuff. I've read (and forgotten where) dog studies of feral dog populations, very interesting, very nerdy. 
Love reading your interpretations here, too. Awesome, Thankyou. I'm mondogamous so nothing from me. Just me and Sonic, and since I control all the goodies, including the car keys (powerful amulet that), it's very clear between me and he.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

@Sunsilver does all the 'sciencey' stuff frustrate you too? Because it drives me nuts. Science is awesome, but not when it's turned into dogma and avenues of inquiry get shut down. (sorry dogma username).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There was a study done on feral packs of dogs a few years ago. The findings were that there was no "dominant" dog leading the pack. Social status was fluid. Any dog that was a bully was avoided and ostracized. 

As far as my opinion and my understanding of "dominance" and a "dominant" dog, it's the same as Chip's so no sense repeating. I'll just add that a genetically dominant dog is a noun. it's in the dog. It's not a trait. It's not a behavior. It's the dog itself. They do not need humans and do not view humans as above them on the food chain. I have a female who is hard. I see her show traits of dominance in new places where there are other dogs but her interaction with our other dog is fluid and she does not show dominance towards us. If anything, she is very sensitive to my actions and tone.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

One thing I know...when people bring me a dog to board and tell me it's "dominant" ...what they really mean is it's aggressive or a bully.

And here is another thing that pops into my head--- we talk about dominance in "dogs" as if "dogs" were all basically one thing like other species but because of our influence over specific breeds, they are all so different! That has to be factored in. My lab is so different from my shepherds. I board goldens who run up to every kennel gate and go belly up in an attempt to be submissive friends with every other dog in the joint. So I really feel like breed influences behavior and it's hard to make straight up blanket statements about "dogs"

Social dynamics are fascinating. This is something I got from a guy at a seminar but he said that dogs adapt themselves to the "culture" of their household or greater group they are a part of. So people who believe in and enforce strict dominance hierarchies amongst their dogs may be actually seeing that partly because they have created it. And people who don't believe in any such thing will see a different "culture" in their own dogs depending on how they govern them so to speak. Very loosely paraphrased it was a couple years ago and I don't remember exactly what he said but I though it was very interesting. I totally believe it's possible.

In my experience, dogs have wildly varying degrees of
- confidence in any situation including greeting other dogs. 
-skill in communicating with their own kind 
-desire to associate or play with other dogs, appease or be peaceable with other dogs,
-sex hormones that influence behavior and posturing

and a whole host of other factors including how pent up they regularly are-- which influence how they act with a new dog, and most of it is heavily influenced by the people...so what does THAT say about the dog?

Interestingly to me especially b ecause of breed one of the dogs I board who I do feel is kind of "Dominant" is a female lab. Failed from a guide dog program for too much ball drive, she is very confident, mostly very aloof with other dogs, and my spidey sense tells me she could really throw down if it every came to it though she has never showed aggression or been in any scrap with any other dog here. I don't put dogs like that out with other same sex of same type, and dogs who are hot for balls like that I don't put out with any other dog who wants a toy that bad because I feel they are more likely to fight over something. The goldens tend to be submissive, the labs not so much more happy go lucky party kids-- but a few of the labs will really scrap if you pair them wrong and I think it goes against the breed standard to be scrappy.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Can I throw leadership into the equation? 

Dominance definition - power and influence over others
Leadership definition - the art of motivating a group of people to act towards achieving a common goal. ... He or she is the person in the group that possesses the combination of personality and *leadership* skills that makes others want to follow his or her direction.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

islanddog said:


> @Sunsilver does all the 'sciencey' stuff frustrate you too? Because it drives me nuts. Science is awesome, but not when it's turned into dogma and avenues of inquiry get shut down. (sorry dogma username).


Islanddog, I'm trained in biological science, and taught it at the high school level, but yup, I am nodding my head here! Shutting down inquiry is COMPLETELY against the whole role of science, which is to ask questions about this world we live in!

Too many people turn the scientific method on its head: they try to tailor the facts to fit their pet theories, where real scientists try to develop theories to explain the facts!

Hierarchy in feral dogs may be fluid, but they do have territories. I remember an article about a guy who befriended a feral dog, and managed to persuade it to follow him out of its usual territory. The poor dog took a terrible beating from the dogs that had laid claim to the adjacent section of the city, and came close to being killed.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Dunkirk said:


> Can I throw leadership into the equation?
> 
> Dominance definition - power and influence over others
> Leadership definition - the art of motivating a group of people to act towards achieving a common goal. ... He or she is the person in the group that possesses the combination of personality and *leadership* skills that makes others want to follow his or her direction.


This is a really interesting point. I've seen dogs wade into the dog park like they own the place and all dogs will automatically defer to them. This involves no posturing of any kind, no growling, no bullying. They just walk in there and boom, they're the leader for the next hour or so. If any dogs get too rowdy, they just walk over and the rowdiness dies down. It's pretty amazing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorry, I haven't read the article yet. But are you seeing people truly saying that there is no such thing as dominance? Because what I've seen is more about debunking the idea that _every_ behavior issue is related to dominance, a la Cesar Milan. Dog doesn't obey? Dominant! Dog walks ahead of you instead of next to or behind you? Dominant! Your dog wants to lay on the furniture? Dominant!

Never mind that a dog that hasn't been properly trained or generalized in a variety of situations, including increased distractions, may not always obey because they don't fully understand what you expect. Never mind that a dog who hasn't been taught to walk on a loose leash is likely to pull ahead. Never mind that the couch is more comfortable than the floor, and also closer to his/her people.

Halo was a walk into everywhere like she owns the joint, and everything here is mine type of dog. But she wasn't a snot about it, and Keefer deferred to her more often than not without any fuss, even when she was 1/4 of his size. What was funny was when she was clearly humoring him. If she were human she'd be sporting a smirk, lol. Was she a dominant dog? I don't really think so. She was assertive and opinionated, but she also had great social skills. She never started anything with another dog but she wouldn't take any crap either.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Here's one more thought. What is a "dog" without human influence. I know there are feral populations but is that even the "natural" state of a dog considering what a dog is is a domesticated k9

So the natural state of a dog is to live with humans.

Here is one thing though, I have seen intact males just do nothing but posturing at each other and rough play that is close to fighting and whether its rank or dominance or breeding rights they think they are competing for, I have gotten the sense from those interactions that its a contest of sorts.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think there is dominance. Most of it is between dogs though and not the dogs to people. Unfortunately, there is a LOT of dominance from people to dogs, or more, the crushing of supposed dominance in dogs by people. 

I am not an animal behaviorist, but I have spent decades studying GSDs. If we think about dog packs or wolf packs in the wild, we consider the litter size of 4-7 puppies, and some of them die. Evenso, I try to take a common sense approach to how many dogs would be truly dominant. 

There are dogs that are stuck being dominant. The other dog in the household is a total marshmallow, like an English Setter, and like it or not, the GSD takes the dominant dog position that is up for grabs. But in reality the dog is a middle of the road dog, and not a dominant dog at all. Back to the wolf pack. The dominant male and female are not fighting all the time. They need to maintain order, so that the pack is fit and healthy and can run down game. They do this by walking around like they are royalty, and a challenge to that is usually put down by a mere stare. It helps that the pack is generally derived by the sire and dam and half-grown pups. The next year, you have some older pups and baby pups. The following year, the oldest of the pups are either staying within the pack or they will build their own pack. In the natural order of things, a pack needs middle of the road dogs who will help in the hunt, and these will be the majority of the litter. Then you have the omega dogs, the ones left behind to babysit when everyone else goes hunting. They critters have a position in the pack, they are lowest on the totem pole, but they serve a purpose. Then you have the crazy ones, the wanna be alphas or beta dogs. These are the ones that are fighting each other, jockeying for position, and probably being banished or killed. These are the worst ones to have as a pet, I think. The true alpha doesn't show up all that often. I had one. One out of 30 some dogs in the past 15 years. An alpha bitch. She was wonderful. But she wasn't alpha to me at all. I'm a different species, and dogs know that. 

Some crazy dogs try to push themselves over humans, maybe over the children in the family or over the wife. I don't think that is good character. Maybe with working dogs, you need or want a dog that refuses to be led by someone without a certain stature when it comes to power. These may be the dogs that are most likely to fight a truly threatening, combative human. I'll not comment on that. 

For show line dogs though, I think people are way more likely to misdiagnose dominance in dogs and because of that handle the dogs poorly. Like the stubborn or defiant puppy -- dominant. Uh, no. Generally, the stubborn pup is unsure of what you want for them to do, poor communication, and is not confident enough to do anything that might be wrong. So they stop. And the more we treat them like a stubborn child, the more they are likely to be more confused, more "stubborn." Having realistic expectations for puppies and being in tune with them, the more you don't have symptoms of stubbornness. I don't have any stubborn dogs. But someone can take a dog of mine home, and find it to be stubborn. I have had trainers say that one of the bitch pups I sold a lady was stubborn and dominant. I got her back, and I found her to be easy to train, a people pleaser, and not wanting to do the wrong thing. Not dominant. If you tell people that 1% or .1% of dogs, one in a thousand dogs is a dominant dogs, they will believe that theirs is a dominant dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I have always found dog on dog dominance to be a situational and fluid thing. My dog is one who will approach other dogs (in or out of a dog park) with that regal, in-command type posture, head and tail held high, shoulders hackled, forward posture. 

She doesn't bully other dogs, but she doesn't do any appeasing behaviors with most dogs either. And aggression from another dog is usually met head on. But, I wouldn't call her a dominant dog. 

What I have always thought of as dominance in a dog can be seen in ALL interactions with dogs or humans. A truly, genetically dominant dog will fight you for real if/when a human or another dog tries to "make" them do anything they don't agree with! They are not good pack mates, they cooperate only when THEY want to, which is probably why they don't occur frequently. In all my life I've only seen 2 that were IMHO truly dominant dogs.

The study cited by the OP here talks about dominance in the dog on dog relationship within a multidog household. Not really dominance (in my view, or my vocabulary) at all...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Check out this video. Anywhere from 800 to 1200 dogs living, eating and playing together in relative harmony in what has become the largest, no-kill, dog sanctuary in the world.






Now that would be a great place to really study dominance, or the lack thereof...


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

@Cassidy's Mom Yes, I used to belong to a number of force free training groups & forums, and yes, there was a pack mentality with a lot of 'dominance debunked!' posts, I'm sure most people parroting this had no clue what they were talking about, just repeating what they have heard. And pretty much a guaranteed pile-on if someone used the word pack (as in 'group of dogs')

I'm loving everyone's conversation here. I am noticing a focus on agonistic/aggressive/undesirable or disruptive dominance, with the more subtle peaceful positive leadership styles being listed as other than. Still need to find more studies, but who follows whom, who defers to whom, who yields more often, who copies the other. I noticed in the study I posted that they were seeing some correlations between dogs that looked to humans to copy the human behaviour, and dogs that looked to other dogs for guidance.

I'm more interested in the exploration aspect of the topic, than whether or not it informs some training choices, although, that too could be an interesting avenue to explore, but yes, I was/am always annoyed by science getting dumbed down to meme or statement. 

PS. I gave up on those groups, may rejoin if I feel something new comes down the force free training pipe.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Age-grade Dominance Hierarchies
Some good stuff here, I will close read later, but a quick scrolls reveals, 

Below is a paragraph that refers to was trying to refer (in my ham-fisted way) above, (and I have some long form nerdy reading to do later)

So, although a portion of the existing literature emphasizes the role of dominance in competitive interactions, it is now clear that dominance can be expressed also in the context of social bonding (de Waal 1986). For instance, it has been argued that some highly social primates and carnivores have evolved so-called “formal submissive gestures” that communicate unambiguously the acceptance of subordinate status, thus facilitating the development of an affiliative relationship between dominant and subordinate individuals and reducing damaging aggression during conflicts (de Waal 1986; van Hooff and Wensing 1987; East and Hofer 2010; Cafazzo et al. 2010; Trisko and Smuts 2015). To be regarded as a formal indicator of social status, a submissive behavior should be nearly unidirectional within a given dyad (being expressed almost always by the same dyad member) and expressed also in affiliative contexts such as greeting; moreover, its directionality should be both independent of the social context and correlated with that of submissive gestures expressed in agonistic contexts (de Waal and Luttrell 1985; de Waal 1986; Preuschoft 1999). Species exhibiting formalized dominance relationships can still differ with respect to their “dominance style”, which is related to the degree of social tolerance displayed by dominant animals towards subordinates, that is, the degree to which dominant animals withhold punishment when subordinates exert a dominant attitude (Flack and de Waal 2004; Cooper and Bernstein 2008). For example, in primates with a “despotic dominance style” hierarchies are enforced through severe aggression and dominance reversals (e.g., aggression directed by subordinates to dominants) are very rare, whereas in primates with a “tolerant dominance style” aggression is mild, dominance reversals are more frequent, relationships are more often unresolved (i.e., in some dyads no clear dominant individual emerges), and levels of affiliation and cooperation are higher. In primates with a “relaxed” and “egalitarian style” social tolerance is even higher and most social relationships are unresolved (Sterck et al. 1997; Flack and de Waal 2004; Thierry 2008; Thierry et al. 2008; Balasubramaniam et al. 2012). More generally, in behavioral ecology, a despotic dominance style has been also associated with a stronger fitness bias in favor of the dominant members of a social group (Vehrencamp 1983). However, up to now few studies have tested the correlation between behavioral measures of despotism/tolerance and degree of reproductive skew, despite the fact that measures of hierarchy steepness have been designed for this specific purpose (e.g., de Vries et al. 2006).


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> Check out this video. Anywhere from 800 to 1200 dogs living, eating and playing together in relative harmony in what has become the largest, no-kill, dog sanctuary in the world.
> Now that would be a great place to really study dominance, or the lack thereof...


Video from a santuary like that would be a goldmine of dog behaviour. Love it. Also, I now own a dog from a free-range dog population, and am extra extra fascinated by such dogs and how they interact. Thank you.
From my own dog (and watching video's of the rescue--they have a group intake compound where all the dogs run together) feral & free-range dogs are MUCH more subtle in communication than your average leashed dog walking down the street.
Most people won't even see the signals that dogs give and receive peacefully. An actual aggressive display is tip of the iceberg stuff, a failure of dog dog communication, and a failure of conflict resolution. Much can be accomplished by a sniff, a slight movement in face muscles, slight movement in body. 
So, thanks for the video link.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just some observations from my pack, all intact. I like to watch with minimal interference. I consider my oldest male to be a dominant dog, not an alpha dominant, but definitely an inherent trait of who he is. Not sure if some of this stuff is dominance related or something entirely different but people might find it interesting. 

He doesn't really care to perform for me but thrives on working with me as a partner. He has no problem in letting it be known that he is not going to take an unfair correction. He is social on his terms but is what I perceive to be a socially aggressive dog.

And then there is his harem! Little, blushing school girls vying for his attention. Subservient, appeasing, thrilled at being in his presence. The one bitch is super possessive and I have to watch her for serious dog fights when out with the other males, but not with him. He can have anything he wants from her. Not that he takes it but she offers to share all with him. I don't breed so when the girls come into heat, they only have eyes for him and reject all other males until the tail end of their fertile cycle then they will seek out and flirt with the other males. 

The big male is not one for nuisance barking. When he barks, it warrants checking out. When he barks his serious bark, the other dogs remain silent. 

Then you have the puppies. When he barks, the puppies that retreat (not run) tend to grow up softer. The puppies that carry on with what they were doing or pause to look up from what they are doing tend to be on the more dominant end of the spectrum as adults. Lastly, are the Mal pups. When the big dog barks, they rush up and join in the barking. Their barking is part excitement but has serious undertones. They become very intense. I am watching to see how this develops.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

islanddog said:


> Video from a santuary like that would be a goldmine of dog behaviour. Love it. Also, I now own a dog from a free-range dog population, and am extra extra fascinated by such dogs and how they interact. Thank you.
> From my own dog (and watching video's of the rescue--they have a group intake compound where all the dogs run together) feral & free-range dogs are MUCH more subtle in communication than your average leashed dog walking down the street.
> Most people won't even see the signals that dogs give and receive peacefully. An actual aggressive display is tip of the iceberg stuff, a failure of dog dog communication, and a failure of conflict resolution. Much can be accomplished by a sniff, a slight movement in face muscles, slight movement in body.
> So, thanks for the video link.


I have seen it said among non German Shepherd pros that it is critical for puppies to interact with other puppies/dogs to learn these social nuances to mitigate leash reactivity and dog aggression from developing.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just some observations from my pack, all intact. I like to watch with minimal interference. I consider my oldest male to be a dominant dog, not an alpha dominant, but definitely an inherent trait of who he is. Not sure if some of this stuff is dominance related or something entirely different but people might find it interesting.
> 
> He doesn't really care to perform for me but thrives on working with me as a partner. He has no problem in letting it be known that he is not going to take an unfair correction. He is social on his terms but is what I perceive to be a socially aggressive dog.
> 
> ...


These are awesome observations, a play by play of observed behaviours, thank you so much. It reminds me very much of the types of behaviours that researchers would note an quantify.
I'm just a nerd, but my nerdy self would agree that your sexy dude is dominant in your group. They look to him, they defer to him, they WANT him.

I like this sentence,_ He can have anything he wants from her. Not that he takes it but she offers to share all with him. _


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

islanddog said:


> Video from a santuary like that would be a goldmine of dog behaviour. Love it. Also, I now own a dog from a free-range dog population, and am extra extra fascinated by such dogs and how they interact.


islandog, do you subscribe to Monique Anstee's blog? She is currently working with a street dog from Mexico, and blogging every day about the dog's rehabilitation! Link: https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee/

She is a very experienced dog-trainer, and I am sure you will find her insights valuable!


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Sunsilver said:


> islandog, do you subscribe to Monique Anstee's blog? She is currently working with a street dog from Mexico, and blogging every day about the dog's rehabilitation! Link: https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee/
> 
> She is a very experienced dog-trainer, and I am sure you will find her insights valuable!


I know her blog, I didn't realize she was updating Leppys journey daily. Great reading, her. Leppy's extreme, sounds like it was a true feral; mine is on the opposite end, free-range socialized pet who's owners lost the ability to care for him, genetically, I'm guessing Sonic has some feral drift, feral genes, but a good helping of farm/herding dog plus terrier (yep, terrier) and breed does matter)). But yes, love her blog. I have bunches of reading to do now.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

islanddog said:


> These are awesome observations, a play by play of observed behaviours, thank you so much. It reminds me very much of the types of behaviours that researchers would note an quantify.
> I'm just a nerd, but my nerdy self would agree that your sexy dude is dominant in your group. They look to him, they defer to him, they WANT him.
> 
> I like this sentence,_ He can have anything he wants from her. Not that he takes it but she offers to share all with him. _


I don't think it is just in his group.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

The following article is about brumbies, (wild Australian horses). 'A strong sense of ‘family’ or mob structure', would be a pack structure in dogs.





__





FAQs - Save The Brumbies


Are Brumbies different from domestic horses? Yes and no, being born in the wild Brumbies have a strong sense of...




www.savethebrumbies.org





*Are Brumbies different from domestic horses?*
Yes and no, being born in the wild Brumbies have a strong sense of ‘family’ or mob structure. There is a strict law of ‘pecking order’ and each horse has his definite place in the mob. His senses are highly developed, he is an intelligent, alert and thinking animal.
By tuning in to his natural abilities and showing him leadership but never domination, he will quickly become your friend and bond closely with you in a way domestic horses rarely achieve. His daily needs in captivity are no different from a domestic horse.


Brumbies do not know hate, they live in the wild within a firm social structure of law and order. They are inquisitive and as they gain confidence will come to you with innocence and a willingness to trust. Repay them in like and they have no reason to bite or kick. Biting and kicking is a form of self defence, caused by fear and fright. Humans create these problems, not horses


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## Sana (Dec 31, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> I studied animal behaviour in university, and I can state with absolute confidence that any animals that live in a group have a well-defined 'pecking order' or dominance structure. Those that say there's no such thing as dominance in dogs are spouting B.S.
> 
> I remember watching a TV special about dogs, and it tried to debunk the dominance theory by showing a young pup humping a much older dog. The narrator said that if the dominance theory were true, the older dog wouldn't allow this.
> 
> ...


The only exception that comes to mind would be female lion pride I think. If you take the big boys out of the equation, they seem to favour avoiding establishing any pecking order, and even show tolerance to free riding to a large extent.


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## Sana (Dec 31, 2019)

Dunkirk said:


> Can I throw leadership into the equation?
> 
> Dominance definition - power and influence over others
> Leadership definition - the art of motivating a group of people to act towards achieving a common goal. ... He or she is the person in the group that possesses the combination of personality and *leadership* skills that makes others want to follow his or her direction.


In dogs, it's been established at more than one occasions, by more than one team, that there's a strong relationship between leadership, defined as who gets followed by who, and dominance rank. Note that this is a bit expected, since ethograms to rank either attribute are virtually the same.

There's still some nice, very very nice conclusion to draw from works of say, Bonanni (and his team) and Akos (and her team). Dominant "bullies" do not lead the pack, as subordinates tend to avoid following them! 

So, only good dominant dogs, those who wait for their turn (as a hierarchy is mostly age graded), are also leader of any pack. And the reason we can come to this conclusion, is that science does not consider a dog who shows agonistic behaviour to obtain submission, as leader. But you can and will score as the D in a relationship by force. This distinction is very interesting indeed, and shows that to have success in a pack of dogs, you got to be both moral, and assertive, not a dum ass, and assertive.


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## Sana (Dec 31, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just some observations from my pack, all intact. I like to watch with minimal interference. I consider my oldest male to be a dominant dog, not an alpha dominant, but definitely an inherent trait of who he is. Not sure if some of this stuff is dominance related or something entirely different but people might find it interesting.
> 
> He doesn't really care to perform for me but thrives on working with me as a partner. He has no problem in letting it be known that he is not going to take an unfair correction. He is social on his terms but is what I perceive to be a socially aggressive dog.
> 
> ...


Would there be any chance that you could shoot some footage? I'm cooking a 50k word essai on this topic. Your observations are very interesting.

And yes, this dominant dude is your alpha, it is how they call this kind of dog. I'd be very very surprised that he'd act in a way which is unfair to any other dog in the place. 
If he ever pushes another male away from a female, check for body language of the female first. If she said no, and the other male would like to insist just a bit, it's entirely normal that the alpha does his job, which is protecting the female. In such a case, even an alpha roll is moral.


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## Sana (Dec 31, 2019)

In a stable pack of dogs used to share time together, any dog to whom some dogs submit, and who never submits is an alpha. There could be more than one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Not sure what part of the post you would like to see on video. 

There is no pushing other males away from females with the older male. I start separating him from other males when the youngsters approach a year. I have seen him pull a puppy pass on a 6 month old dog. My mistake for not stopping the young male's over exuberant overtures not realizing the magnitude of the correction that would be meted out. I do not place any two of my adult males together let alone with a female among them particularly with that dog.

Just a side note, when a male is still young enough to be safely run with the big male and a female, the young males tend to focus on appeasement and subservient behaviors with the big male rather than bother with the females for the better part. The big male is supremely tolerant of these behaviors in young pups and almost seems embarrassed by all of the affection but at the same time appears to immensely enjoy puppies. He abhors these behaviors when it comes from a juvenile male. Juvenile being defined as after puberty.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

@MineAreWorkingline I'm guessing Sana is looking for some nice natural footage of your dogs being dogs interacting together -- research. Especially sexy dude. I think I'm in love. I'll bet even people notice such a dog, well actually, I should ask. Does he get noticed more, complimented more?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

On the dog-dog dominance thing, I was talking only about within the pack, and not dogs not living together. I really didn't think about that much. I have actually taken my dogs to other people's homes with dogs a few times and once to a dog park, but usually, 99.999% of the time, we interact with dogs at home.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

islanddog said:


> @MineAreWorkingline I'm guessing Sana is looking for some nice natural footage of your dogs being dogs interacting together -- research. Especially sexy dude. I think I'm in love. I'll bet even people notice such a dog, well actually, I should ask. Does he get noticed more, complimented more?


Yes, he gets a lot of attention. Everybody wants a pup by him including me but he is too much for most people and I was never sure of finding enough proper homes for pups.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Sana said:


> So, only good dominant dogs, those who wait for their turn (as a hierarchy is mostly age graded), are also leader of any pack. And the reason we can come to this conclusion, is that science does not consider a dog who shows agonistic behaviour to obtain submission, as leader. But you can and will score as the D in a relationship by force. This distinction is very interesting indeed, and shows that to have success in a pack of dogs, you got to be both moral, and assertive, not a dum ass, and assertive.


I suspect this is why humans and dogs have evolved so cooperatively together. Much of how a dog pack (proto-dog or the dog's wolf ancestor) is structured mirrors the natural human family structure as well as the traits appreciated in a leader. Dogs value fairness, trust, confidence, cool-headedness, and assertiveness in their leaders. So too do humans. It's little wonder that we evolved and developed the partnership we have between our species. We have an instinctual level of understanding of one another. It's very, very strange from an evolutionary point of view. Exceedingly strange.


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## pfeller (Sep 10, 2019)

I have 3 dogs. A female pit/GSD mix age 14yrs, a male GSD 15 months, and a (rescued) male ACD/GSD mix age approximately 1yr. All are altered.

My GSD is a d*ck. Every toy is his toy.
Doesn't matter if he is contentedly laying there chomping on something, if he sees one of the others pick up a toy, he gets up and takes it. Sometimes they protest, sometimes they don't. Though the pit tends to be a bit more defensive than the rescue, the rescue is starting to stand up for himself more and more. (It is adorable when he actually snarls at the GSD during rough housing.)

Though he is a bully with the toys, he is not food aggressive at feeding time. They all eat in the same area, each has their own dish and placement of said dish. Each goes to the appropriate dish.

Reading through this thread has made me wonder about some of the more subtle interactions I'm not seeing. Will be taking more time to just watch now.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

islanddog said:


> More a discussion, not a question. I'm actually fascinated by animal behaviour and it drives me nuts when people say 'there's no such thing as dominance' and 'dominance debunked' usually in conjunction with 'science says', when science says no such thing.


There seems to be some misunderstanding on this thread about which "dominance" we are talking about. 
"Dominance" over other animals? Sure. 
Dominance as a means of dealing with their favorite human? That's one REALLY STUPID dog. 

As to the usual evidence given for it:
1) The comparison is usually made to wolves. Dogs are not wolves. If you doubt that, go get a pet wolf. They are very different animals with very different views of the world.
2) Wolf packs are family organizations, not criminal mob organizations. Dominance means cooperation, as in any family, and kids get yelled at from time to time. It does not mean that the leader gets everything he wants.
3) Dominance is not a demand for life for anyone, even in a wolf pack. Note that, even in wolf packs, all of the members of the pack except one gladly accept the fact that someone is superior to them.
4) As others have noted, dominance is fluid, especially in family or friendly relationships. It isn't like one animal is going to get their way all the time. If you don't believe me, ask your spouse.
5) In the article, it is owner-rated views of the animal's dominant traits. Anyone who has ever studied this kind of science can tell you that, if you ask for something, people will probably see it and give it to you -- whether it exists or not. 
6) I have three dogs. One is around 120 pounds, one is about 90, and the other is about ten pounds. Guess which one runs the house and sleeps wherever she wants. Explain that.
7) One of the most common examples given of "dominance" is when they demand attention, or want to sit in your lap. How would we tell the difference between "dominance" and "I just thought a hug would be nice"? You call the animal over to pet them occasionally. Are you doing that because you want to dominate them? Or are you doing it simply because it feels good for both of you?
8) Another example is the supposed submissive behavior of their wildly enthusiastic displays when they see you return home. That's nothing. They just feel the same way I do when I see them after a long absence. If I had a tail, I would be wagging it, too. 
9) Consider the case of my ten pound mutt. If that dog thinks it can dominate an animal almost twenty times its size, then how brain damaged is that dog? Every animal can see a respective difference in size and they all know that they can't dominate something that is many times bigger than they are. 

Then there is the simple logic of dog dominance over humans. What's in it for the dog to dominate a human? Consider it as if you were a dog.

You wake up in the morning and your servant brings a fresh bowl of food that your personal chef has selected to suit your tastes. Then your servant gives you a back rub and a hug and tells you that you are the most wonderful thing ever to happen on earth. You go entertain yourself in the yard for a while and then take part of your 16 hours of naps every day. Your servant thoughtfully got you a soft, warm bed to make you as comfortable as possible. Occasionally, your servant will call you over to give you another back rub and some of your favorite food, prepared just the way you like it. You get free complete medical care and can spend the day doing whatever you want. When bedtime comes, you will probably have a spot on that thousand dollar bed your servant bought to sleep in, and another back run to help you sleep well.

In return for this life of luxury and leisure, your only duty is to tell the servants when someone is at the door. Did I tell you again what a wonderful being you are? You are the best. Come here and let me scratch your ears. Do you want a bone to chew on?

What do you expect to gain by dominating that situation?

I have had many dogs over the decades. Every one of them was smart enough to figure out where and how their bread got buttered without any real instruction or issues. They know the dog bowl comes from me so they don't have a complaint if I pick it up when they are halfway done. If they were going to dominate anyone, it would be babies. They know that babies rule completely, no matter what. My last dog was about twice the size of a normal GSD, about 170 pounds. Any baby old enough to walk could lead him around by the collar. He would terrify any adult who raised his voice to me, but that's not an animal that wants to dominate humans. 

Other behavioral tests of dogs versus wolves shows the key difference in their behavior. In one study, they hid a piece of meat just under a barrier, with a rope tied to it, that the animal could pull on to get the meat. In one of the tests they tied the meat down so that it could not be pulled out. The wolves continued to pull on the rope for a long time, even when their efforts were unsuccessful. The dogs would pull for a while and then sit down and wait for a human to help them. 

There were similar results with opening gates. Both dogs and wolves were found to be intelligent enough to open a wide variety of gates. However, the dogs would often not attempt it because -- apparently -- they thought their owners would not like it. 

Note also the reports of dogs willing giving their lives to save their humans. I read one report where a dog and a baby were found together after a house had burned. The baby was fine because the dog had laid on top of the baby during the fire and had burned to death while protecting the baby. That's not an animal looking to dominate humans. That's animal that knows down to the spinal level that it needs to cooperate with humans. 

The answer is that, over the last tens of thousands of years, dogs have been specifically bred to cooperate with humans in the most complicated ways. (If you haven't seen it already, look up Extreme Sheepherding on Youtube. You will be amazed.) Their behavior toward humans is way different than their behavior toward other dogs. Look at GSDs as the prime example. Why do people like GSDs? Because the GSD watches you ever moment of the day and hangs on every word you speak. The GSD is easily smart enough to tell that his life is better if he just submits and puts up with all your human BS. A GSD will love you even if you have some weird idea that your dog is trying to take over the house and assume the mortgage. 

In short, the reason you have GSDs in the first place is because they have such a tremendous desire to cooperate with you. 

Dominance over other dogs, on a fluid changing basis, so that the big male gets what he wants sometimes, and the smaller female does, too? Sure. But, if they aren't drawing blood over the food bowl, who cares?

Dominance over humans? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I have never had a dog that was so stupid that they needed any help in figuring out that cooperation with the human is better in all cases. I wonder where people find such dogs.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

pfeller said:


> I have 3 dogs. A female pit/GSD mix age 14yrs, a male GSD 15 months, and a (rescued) male ACD/GSD mix age approximately 1yr. All are altered.
> 
> My GSD is a d*ck. Every toy is his toy.
> Doesn't matter if he is contentedly laying there chomping on something, if he sees one of the others pick up a toy, he gets up and takes it. Sometimes they protest, sometimes they don't. Though the pit tends to be a bit more defensive than the rescue, the rescue is starting to stand up for himself more and more. (It is adorable when he actually snarls at the GSD during rough housing.)
> ...


There is research somewhere that shows that, in both humans and dogs, we tend to think that whatever the other guy is salivating over is better than what we are currently chewing on. It's a natural thing. You see it in restaurants --"I'll have what she is having."


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

islanddog said:


> OOOhhhh, talk nerdy to me... thank you.
> The article is actually outlining a study of having owners rank their dogs, I'll have a reread tonight though. And, yes, it does acknowledge the very real confusion over definitions of dominance (which I think gets perpetuated through simplistic memes and slogans and trainer wars, and on).
> Meanwhile, in real science, they study these things.
> Not sure if it's in the article, or I read it elsewhere, but in dogs, assessing dominance through which animal submits the most frequently, which I find interesting.
> ...


I have a question for you, so my dog does not in anyway have the leader of the pack status at home, however lately since he turned one hes been starting to lurch and growl at other dogs on our walks/hikes, where before he would want to meet them and have the happy tail and want to play... What would you consider this behavior as and any suggestions?


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

T'Challa! said:


> I have a question for you, so my dog does not in anyway have the leader of the pack status at home, however lately since he turned one hes been starting to lurch and growl at other dogs on our walks/hikes, where before he would want to meet them and have the happy tail and want to play... What would you consider this behavior as and any suggestions?


Maybe someone else can tackle that, sounds more like a training/behavioural question. Stuff like that, I would recommend seeing a trainer in person for an assessment or take a class, or start a question thread for you because people on this forum may be able to help you with that issue.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

islanddog said:


> Maybe someone else can tackle that, sounds more like a training/behavioural question. Stuff like that, I would recommend seeing a trainer in person for an assessment or take a class, or start a question thread for you because people on this forum may be able to help you with that issue.


Okay thank you!


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

*wm97 said:*
_There seems to be some misunderstanding on this thread about which "dominance" we are talking about.
"Dominance" over other animals? Sure.
Dominance as a means of dealing with their favorite human? That's one REALLY STUPID dog...
Dominance over humans? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I have never had a dog that was so stupid that they needed any help in figuring out that cooperation with the human is better in all cases. I wonder where people find such dogs._


The confusion is part and parcel of dealing with the English language--I am quite happy to leave things free-flowing and read everyone's take on things but with a focus on dog behaviour, why they do the things they do. Dog dog interactions are fascinating. Thanks for chiming in.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

islanddog said:


> QUOTE="wm97, post: 9219149, member: 485381"]
> There seems to be some misunderstanding on this thread about which "dominance" we are talking about.
> "Dominance" over other animals? Sure.
> Dominance as a means of dealing with their favorite human? That's one REALLY STUPID dog...
> Dominance over humans? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I have never had a dog that was so stupid that they needed any help in figuring out that cooperation with the human is better in all cases. I wonder where people find such dogs.


The confusion is part and parcel of dealing with the English language--I am quite happy to leave things free-flowing and read everyone's take on things but with a focus on dog behaviour, why they do the things they do. Dog dog interactions are fascinating. Thanks for chiming in.
[/QUOTE]
Who said that what the heck


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

wm97 said:


> There seems to be some misunderstanding on this thread about which "dominance" we are talking about.


I have not seen that in this thread. Much of the discussion is about dog-dog relations.

That said...



> Dominance over humans? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I have never had a dog that was so stupid that they needed any help in figuring out that cooperation with the human is better in all cases. I wonder where people find such dogs.


 There ya go. Now we have the adjective for the dog that someone thinks is dominating them.

"I think my dog is trying to be alpha." "No, honey, he's just stupid."


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

Kyrielle said:


> I have not seen that in this thread. Much of the discussion is about dog-dog relations.
> 
> That said...
> 
> ...


LOL


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

Kyrielle said:


> I have not seen that in this thread. Much of the discussion is about dog-dog relations.
> 
> That said...
> 
> ...


Dominance over humans has been the major issue over the years. See Cesar Milan and his shows. Also see Leerburg which is often taken as Gospel by many GSD owners and trainers that I have seen. Their whole web site is full of it. People have built their relationships with their dogs on that kind of stuff for decades. 

People see what they want to see. Therefore, if you look for "dominance over humans" you will want to find it. If, however, you think about what you would do if you were in the dog's position, it's different.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

T'Challa! said:


> LOL


Actually, there is one party to the relationship who is SUPPOSED to be way smarter than the other with complexities of relationships, etc. If that tells you anything.

Just sayin' . . . .


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

wm97 said:


> Actually, there is one party to the relationship who is SUPPOSED to be way smarter than the other with complexities of relationships, etc. If that tells you anything.
> 
> Just sayin' . . . .


I feel you man! I just thought its funny that you called the dogs stupid for not knowing how to behave


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

T'Challa! said:


> I feel you man! I just thought its funny that you called the dogs stupid for not knowing how to behave


Well, humans are often not fond of the truth, so it is one of those things you have to blame on the dog. You can probably think of other examples where human guilt gets blamed on the dog.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

wm97 said:


> Well, humans are often not fond of the truth, so it is one of those things you have to blame on the dog. You can probably think of other examples where human guilt gets blamed on the dog.


Now I am not sure what you mean...Training is the Humans responsibility so blaming the human for not training the dog I understand. But blaming the dog for anything is stupid, they are predators and ANIMALS they are not wrong the HUMAN is wrong if you're going to bring one inside your home everything is your responsibility not the dogs.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

T'Challa! said:


> Now I am not sure what you mean...Training is the Humans responsibility so blaming the human for not training the dog I understand. But blaming the dog for anything is stupid, they are predators and ANIMALS they are not wrong the HUMAN is wrong if you're going to bring one inside your home everything is your responsibility not the dogs.


I mean "I didn't FART! Must have been the dog!"


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

I would be muchly obliged to get back to the deeply nerdy discussion of dog behaviour, your first hand observations of dogs most appreciated, peer reviewed papers awesome--they are out there. Also, video footage of dog dog interactions.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

islanddog said:


> I would be muchly obliged to get back to the deeply nerdy discussion of dog behaviour, your first hand observations of dogs most appreciated, peer reviewed papers awesome--they are out there. Also, video footage of dog dog interactions.


OK. Explain how my ten pound mutt can sit on a pile of three rawhide chews and happily chew them all while the two GSDs -- each of which is fully ten times bigger than the mutt -- sit there three feet away, whimpering. If you can do that, then you probably know everything useful about dog-to-dog dominance.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There's no need to be disagreeable or to choose a side -yay or nay, wm97.Island Dog is interested in everybody's observations and experiences.It's a friendly discussion.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm 


wm97 said:


> OK. Explain how my ten pound mutt can sit on a pile of three rawhide chews and happily chew them all while the two GSDs -- each of which is fully ten times bigger than the mutt -- sit there three feet away, whimpering. If you can do that, then you probably know everything useful about dog-to-dog dominance.


Thank you for your observation. Would love video, that would be interesting, and other interactions. Knowledge is beautiful in and of itself, I seek it for it's own sake, that is useful to me. I love reading differing points of view and experiences.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> There's no need to be disagreeable or to choose a side -yay or nay, wm97.Island Dog is interested in everybody's observations and experiences.It's a friendly discussion.


Thank you. It's one of those topics that easilly slides sideways -- and I'm being annoyingly nerdy.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> There's no need to be disagreeable or to choose a side -yay or nay, wm97.Island Dog is interested in everybody's observations and experiences.It's a friendly discussion.


I wasn't doing anything of the sort. I was giving a factual statement. If you can explain that situation, you can probably explain it all. It contains all you need to know about the subject. Think it over.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

islanddog said:


> I'm
> 
> Thank you for your observation. Would love video, that would be interesting, and other interactions. Knowledge is beautiful in and of itself, I seek it for it's own sake, that is useful to me. I love reading differing points of view and experiences.


In all play fights, the tiny mutt pins the other two to the floor without any problems. I have thought about filming it because the little mutt pinning the huge beast with her tiny muzzle is genuinely funny. It just looks ridiculous. The big ones never win. It was the same with my 170 pound beast and our Cocker Spaniel. 

And, as I said elsewhere, if you understand why that happens, then you understand dog dominance. As others have said, it tends to be "fluid."


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I actually have an observation from a couple of hours ago.I was out in the yard with all three dogs.One was in the kennel busy chewing her toy.Samson was snuffling around the perimeter while I was playing fetch with Misty.Samson decides HE wants to play with Misty and rushes up and grabs her by the throat.She totally ignores him even though he was pretty obnoxious pushing her around.She practically had a 'word balloon' over her head "Good Grief!What a pain little brothers can be!" (He's twice her size).
An outside observer might think he's a domineering bully.He couldn't convince her to wrestle so he gave it up and laid down to watch us resume our game.All three of them start wrestling games with each other in the same way,so in their group body slams and pretending to rip each other's throats out is just for fun.There's never a winner.When one wants to stop he or she just stops and looks away for a moment,the other ones pause a few seconds(Are you sure ?)Then they stop just like that.
wm97 mentioned one of his dogs liked to hoard chewables.Mine will do that too,mostly Misty,lol!She'll gather up all three bones and lay on them then give the other two the stink eye.After a while she'll back off a little and allow them to creep up and pick one up.They never fight,and yes I always supervise when they have bones to chew.When food is involved they are always polite and respectful.I'm fortunate to have a peaceful pack.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

wm97 I think you're trying to say you believe your little dog is dominant?Or are you asking for opinions on what other members think is going on?Perhaps she is.I had a little Yorkie mix a few years ago that thought he was "all that".He was a force to be reckoned with for sure.R.I.P. Devo.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> I actually have an observation from a couple of hours ago.I was out in the yard with all three dogs.One was in the kennel busy chewing her toy.Samson was snuffling around the perimeter while I was playing fetch with Misty.Samson decides HE wants to play with Misty and rushes up and grabs her by the throat.She totally ignores him even though he was pretty obnoxious pushing her around.She practically had a 'word balloon' over her head "Good Grief!What a pain little brothers can be!" (He's twice her size).
> An outside observer might think he's a domineering bully.He couldn't convince her to wrestle so he gave it up and laid down to watch us resume our game.All three of them start wrestling games with each other in the same way,so in their group body slams and pretending to rip each other's throats out is just for fun.There's never a winner.When one wants to stop he or she just stops and looks away for a moment,the other ones pause a few seconds(Are you sure ?)Then they stop just like that.
> wm97 mentioned one of his dogs liked to hoard chewables.Mine will do that too,mostly Misty,lol!She'll gather up all three bones and lay on them then give the other two the stink eye.After a while she'll back off a little and allow them to creep up and pick one up.They never fight,and yes I always supervise when they have bones to chew.When food is involved they are always polite and respectful.I'm fortunate to have a peaceful pack.


Dogs are the most successful animal evolution has ever produced. You might think it was humans, but think about the old Jerry Seinfeld joke. If you saw an animal walking down the street, with another animal walking behind it picking up its poop, who would you think was in charge? 

I can go catch rabbits and eat them myself, or I can have my servants bring me freshly prepared meat twice a day. If the bigger dog takes my food dish, I know my servant will yell at them and comfort me and probably give me an extra treat in front of the bully just to spite them. Who really needs dominance over anything? 

Dogs succeed not because they are such great dominators themselves, but because they have learned how to cooperate with humans better than anyone else -- including other humans. The reason humans love dogs so much is because dogs spend all day long trying to please the humans. That behavioral trait doesn't just appear with humans. Dogs live by cooperation, not so much by dominance. If there is more than one dog in the house, they know they have to suppress the dominance in favor of whatever the human wants. If they beat up the little mutt or even treat it unfairly, they know it will be trouble. (And dogs do understand "fair" which is another thing to consider in thinking about dominance.) Same as you knew you couldn't beat up your little brother whenever he ticked you off so you are better off putting up with some of his BS. 

Why does the ten pound mutt need protection when the big ones know they will get yelled at if they hurt her or even treat her unfairly? The big ones know it is better to sit and wait until one of the chew toys gets loose. That also tells you a lot about dog intelligence.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> wm97 I think you're trying to say you believe your little dog is dominant?Or are you asking for opinions on what other members think is going on?Perhaps she is.I had a little Yorkie mix a few years ago that thought he was "all that".He was a force to be reckoned with for sure.R.I.P. Devo.


I am asking, from a logical standpoint -- if the ideas about dominance are correct, then how do you explain any dog clearly dominating an animal ten times it's size? No matter how feisty the little dog may be, that doesn't happen unless the big dog cooperates. In the world of the jungle, the little dog who hoarded the chew toy would be dead before they could get out a good yelp. Therefore, the little dog's "dominance" isn't what you would normally think of as "dominance."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I believe that dominance is a range with submissive on one end being a 0, dominant on the other being a 10 with normal lying somewhere in the middle. 

I think when most people have trouble with a dog and they blame it on dominance that the truth more likely is that the dog is a 4-6 on the scale while the human is a 2-3. Thus, it is not the dog being dominant that is the problem but often it is the human being submissive and ineffective.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ok,so you're talking about dominant behavior over many species?I'm coming from the perspective of the behavior exclusively of domestic dogs in a household.That's my only experience.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I believe that dominance is a range with submissive on one end being a 0, dominant on the other being a 10 with normal lying somewhere in the middle.
> 
> I think when most people have trouble with a dog and they blame it on dominance that the truth more likely is that the dog is a 4-6 on the scale while the human is a 2-3. Thus, it is not the dog being dominant that is the problem but often it is the human being submissive and ineffective.


I believe that using the word "dominance" in a dog-human relationship fundamentally distorts the picture from the beginning. There is no benefit in the dog being dominant over its favorite human at any time. In fact, a dog who really tries to be dominant over a human will likely end in being homeless or put down. If a dog acted dominant towards humans like a wolf would do, you would kill it on the first day. The same thing might happen if the dog was unduly aggressive with other dogs in the family. Dominance won't make them eat any better -- because the human will enforce food shares -- but it might get them killed.

Dogs live by cooperation, with both humans and other dogs. That is what they do naturally. I believe it is better to describe the situation as a stupid human unable to consistently communicate with the dog who wants to do his absolute best to please. It isn't dominance, but more like a four-year-old who hasn't been potty trained. The four-year-old isn't trying to dominate you with a dirty diaper. They just don't understand that you really object to it and how to solve the problem. Therefore, treating the dirty diaper as a dominance issue is not going to get the best results.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> Ok,so you're talking about dominant behavior over many species?I'm coming from the perspective of the behavior exclusively of domestic dogs in a household.That's my only experience.


My question was specifically about domestic dogs, in a situation that would only be encountered in domestic dogs. The little dog dominating one ten times its size simply would not happen anywhere else but inside the home where they know a human is enforcing the rules. It couldn't. It looks ridiculous to even watch the little dog pushing the big one around. No animal would let a much smaller animal push it around if it was really "dominance". 

Therefore, it isn't really "dominance." It's a form of conscious cooperation with very specific limits.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I believe that what some people are defining as dominance might be more that a dog is game especially when referring to terriers, even Yorkies. Game as in to fight to the finish despite grave physical harm, something I attribute to a lack of self preservation. When considered from that viewpoint, it is easy to dismiss the concept of dominance where a small dog bullies or threatens a large dog. The small dog might be game while the large dog has a stronger sense of self preservation and is not looking for a frivolous fight where a small game dog wouldn't care.

Most dog fights are bluff and noise, survival of the species. By avoiding injuries, the dogs get to live to pass on their genetics. Wolves don't kill pack members or interlopers as often as others would have you think. It is quite uncommon, self preservation.

Regarding dogs taking on a larger animal, look at the moderately sized Karelian Bear Dogs. I hear they are quite fierce and effective in their endeavors.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I couldn't decipher what the question was.So among your pack you are seeing what you call voluntary cooperation.Got it


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I believe that dominance and submission are inherent traits. I believe it holds true for humans too. I think calling an inherently submissive person "stupid" is unfair and unkind. We all deal with the cards we were dealt genetically and being somewhat submissive does not make one stupid or undesirable, just different. We know in dogs that their inherent traits can be enhanced or diminished with environment and nurture. I don't think you will find things much different in humans.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

And yes,terriers are fierce little things!Gotta be to take on rats and weasles.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not sure what part of the post you would like to see on video.
> 
> There is no pushing other males away from females with the older male. I start separating him from other males when the youngsters approach a year. I have seen him pull a puppy pass on a 6 month old dog. My mistake for not stopping the young male's over exuberant overtures not realizing the magnitude of the correction that would be meted out. I do not place any two of my adult males together let alone with a female among them particularly with that dog.
> 
> Just a side note, when a male is still young enough to be safely run with the big male and a female, the young males tend to focus on appeasement and subservient behaviors with the big male rather than bother with the females for the better part. The big male is supremely tolerant of these behaviors in young pups and almost seems embarrassed by all of the affection but at the same time appears to immensely enjoy puppies. He abhors these behaviors when it comes from a juvenile male. Juvenile being defined as after puberty.


How many dogs do you have? How do you manage working/training/ exercise them all? Esp if they have to be rotated? And you have mailnois? Sounds like a lot

Just curious.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Regarding a dog attempting to dominate a human, there is much that can be gained. That roast on the table vs a bowl of kibble, staying inside or out, sleeping on the owner's bed vs the crate, monopoly on attention and affection, refusing to be leashed up at the park to leave...the list goes on, when the dog does it with aggression.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> How many dogs do you have? How do you manage working/training/ exercise them all? Esp if they have to be rotated? And you have mailnois? Sounds like a lot
> 
> Just curious.


I am early retired and a rabid hiker. I have three outdoor kennels and a yard fenced in two. The dogs get exercise on hikes and swimming as well as playing with each other in matched pairs, and yes, I even use dog parks when appropriate. 

IMO, training is what one does to address a dog's drives. Off leash hiking without nagging the dogs accomplishes the same things as tracking, dock diving, agility, etc., all done on nature's playground as nature has provided. We are huge fans of Adventure Training here.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Regarding a dog attempting to dominate a human, there is much that can be gained. That roast on the table vs a bowl of kibble, staying inside or out, sleeping on the owner's bed vs the crate, monopoly on attention and affection, refusing to be leashed up at the park to leave...the list goes on, when the dog does it with aggression.


"That roast on the table vs a bowl of kibble,"

He might get ONE. That would require a REALLY STUPID dog -- one that would not learn even from the worst reactions. Any dog that did it more than once would find himself homeless.

" staying inside or out,"

That's not dependent on whether the dog is dominant. That's the owner's choice and the dog can't open the door when the owner locks it. No ordinary dog is going to stand there and defy you if you tell it to go out the door.

" sleeping on the owner's bed vs the crate,"

How is that "dominance" unless it refuses to move when the owner tells it to get off the bed? And how stupid would the owner have to be to accept that?
Again, it is a really stupid dog that won't cooperate with its owner, and a stupider owner for accepting it. That's a failure to communicate, not a dominance issue.

" monopoly on attention and affection,"

How would you tell the difference between "dominance" and the simple fact that cuddling feels really good, any time at all, and, if someone is handing some out, I want to get some, too? 

With any similar example, ask yourself whether the desired activity feels good. If it feels good, then you don't need dominance to explain it. I have had dogs for decades. I can't recall ever seeing any dog that would turn down some good feel-good affection. In fact, they will put up with all kinds of misery just to get a little of it.

" refusing to be leashed up at the park to leave"

How would you tell the difference between the dog "dominating" you and the dog simply loving the fun and being too distracted to pay attention like he would at home? Suppose you took your five year old to Disneyland and they didn't pay attention and weren't cooperative when you said that you had to go. Are they trying to dominate you? Or is this another thing that can be fully explained by the fact that something feels good?

"...the list goes on, when the dog does it with aggression." 

Does it with "aggression"? Against the owner? Are you talking about dogs that really, really don't understand how good they have it and think they would be better off in the dog pound? What are you doing that your dogs think it is a good idea to try to bite you? I have had dozens of dogs over the years. I have never had one that was so completely stupid that they thought aggression was a good idea. That sounds like a really good way to become really dead really quick.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Regarding a dog attempting to dominate a human, there is much that can be gained. That roast on the table vs a bowl of kibble, staying inside or out, sleeping on the owner's bed vs the crate, monopoly on attention and affection, refusing to be leashed up at the park to leave...the list goes on, when the dog does it with aggression.


Let's also note that wanting to sleep on the bed is something that can be fully explained without any reference to dominance. My dogs want to be in physical contact with me pretty much 24/7. It feels good to have someone warm and loving sleeping near you. It brings love and comfort and security. There are lots of reasons to sleep on the bed that have nothing to do with dominance.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Regarding a dog attempting to dominate a human, there is much that can be gained. That roast on the table vs a bowl of kibble, staying inside or out, sleeping on the owner's bed vs the crate, monopoly on attention and affection, refusing to be leashed up at the park to leave...the list goes on, when the dog does it with aggression.


Consider the math. Suppose you live with an animal that is three times your size who towers over you and is obviously a lot smarter than you are. What animal is going to think domination is going to be a winning approach? It just doesn't make sense. If you read about animal aggression you will find that animals can figure out that much math, all the way down to crickets.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Well, few anecdotal notes from my experience...

I do agree that animals work out a hierarchy of access to food, mates, etc. I have observed it in every pet I have had, including guinea pigs (one piggy would get the best hidey hole, and we even had to separate guinea pigs when the "alpha pig" began not letting the "submissive pig" drink from the water bottle). Other dog owners have told me about their small fierce dogs who are "alpha" over their larger, more easygoing dogs. And animal hierarchies are shown on all the nature shows too...

My dog seems to be highly ranked in dog hierarchies. His foster mom told us that he gets along with "submissive males" best, and that he used to shoulder the other dogs out of the way to climb onto the couch. I've seen other dogs lay down or pee as he approaches, and he also gets "kissed" on the side of his face sometimes. He has faced off multiple large dogs with hackles raised and snarling, and seems ready to die in a puddle on his own blood rather than ever submit (sigh). He's braver than I am...

What has puzzled me is that I am a submissive softspoken kind of human, gentle and not very strict. He listens to me well and I have no issues with him at all - he is eager to do my bidding and easy to correct. Often I grab him on both sides of his neckruff and kiss him on the top of the head (a very dominant act in animal language, but he just wags his tail and smiles).

I concluded that there are animal hierarchies / rankings but they do not often extend the hierarchy outside of their own species. Things that owners label as "dominance" are often more accurately labeled as "the dog has learned what it can get away with to get food/attention/toy". I think a lot of dogs get hit/jerked around/whacked/punished for "dominance" reasons when really what is needed is clear patient consistent training.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

First I think you need to go back and amend your questions to include "done with aggression".

I need to add here that I disagree with your comment about dogs living to please people. Even biddable dogs have been known to offer behaviors to avoid doing what they don't want to do, not to be confused with a lack of clarity of what is being asked of them.

Maybe I have just read many more threads than you have but all of the behaviors I suggested for what does a dog have to gain by not cooperating are common problems on this forum.

Counter surfing and growling to keep the booty, dogs not coming in when called, failing to get off the bed or move on command and reacting aggressively. pushing its way between adults on the couch or being aggressive toward an SO being affectionate to their SO, refusing to be leashed up at a park or being collar aggressive are common problems. Do not confuse my awareness of other people's dogs exhibiting these behaviors with my dogs having these issues.

Not sure where you saw that I said that my dogs bite me or are aggressive with me. I don't recall stating anything so totally false. I did, however, mention my dominant dog not taking an UNFAIR correction. Got to admire a dog that will stand tall to defend himself. It will shine through if you ever really need him.

You stated: "The GSD is easily smart enough to tell that his life is better if he just submits and puts up with all your human BS." This is a GSD forum where a lot of people work their dogs. Submissive might be good for a busy young family but I doubt it would be conducive to any real work venues including sheep herding. I hear some rams can be quite large and recalcitrant.

I am a firm leader not a tyrant that makes life and death decisions for my loved dogs based on a stolen roast. I value my dogs more that that and I am not motivated by ego or having to prove anything. We have a cooperative, two sided relationship.  My dogs lives matter.

Seems to me that many 60-70# dogs are very willing to fight 240# men, just look at all of the Mal K9s and MWDs.

Tell me, just how much experience do you have with German Shepherds and with what breeds are you primarily experienced? I suspect it's not the herders.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Also...this is more to islanddog's original topic...

but if you watch wolf videos you can see canine hierarchy behavior. A lower ranking wolf will lower its body and "arc" around the higher ranking wolf, which stands straight with head held high. A lower ranking wolf may lick the muzzle of a higher ranking wolf or even (in extreme appeasement) roll over and display its belly to the higher ranked wolf.

It's always fascinating to see similar behaviors acted out at the dog park or even when two dogs meet on leash. For instance, my dog always approaches other dogs with high head, pricked ears, high tail. If the other dog does not lower its head a bit or give the subtle signals of deference, there will be growling (trash talking) between the two. If the other dog is friendly and easygoing, my dog will relax as well - and there will be buttsniffing.

My neighbor has a big black lab named Mimi, who despite her size and big deep bark, is very submissive. Whenever my dog and I approach, she will lay down or urinate. So it's clearly not just size that goes into a more dominant dog personality!


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

"First I think you need to go back and amend your questions to include "done with aggression"."

Maybe you need to explain what "done with aggression" means, exactly. Just how suicidal are the dogs you are describing?

"I need to add here that I disagree with your comment about dogs living to please people. Even biddable dogs have been known to offer behaviors to avoid doing what they don't want to do, not to be confused with a lack of clarity of what is being asked of them."

The latest science on dog-human relationships says that it is not a pack relationship. Instead, it is "imprinting", as geese do with their mothers at a certain age. Imprinting is not a relationship where the imprinter wants to dominate. If you are correct in your dog mind-reading and have actually determined the reasons for his behavior, the fact that something is unpleasant for him, or that he is bored with it, is fully enough explanation for him trying to avoid it without any concerns about dominating you.

"Maybe I have just read many more threads than you have but all of the behaviors I suggested for what does a dog have to gain by not cooperating are common problems on this forum."

All of the behaviors you mentioned are far more easily explained by "feels good and nobody told me not to." If the behavior feels good, there is no reason to go to some complicated idea about dominance.

"Counter surfing"

Feels good. Gets food. Nobody caught me. That's all the explanation you need. And most of my dogs have been big enough to take the food off the counter without any effort at all. With the latest batch, one of them did it once. They got scolded and they both learned the lesson and it never happened again. They will sit there two feet away from the food with drool dripping down their face but they won't touch it because they know their human would not like it -- from being told one time. That's not dominance.

" and growling to keep the booty,"

Dogs growl at their owner? And you think that is a "normal" relationship with a dog? How stupid is that dog that it wants to flirt with a trip to the pound? I have seen that happen with other people's dogs. I remember thinking that they had a poor relationship with the dog even before that happened. 

" dogs not coming in when called,":

Again, if it feels good then you don't need any explanation about dominance. Kids refuse to come in from play, too. Does that mean they are trying to dominate you?

"failing to get off the bed or move on command and reacting aggressively."

So your dog does not obey your commands, won't go where you tell it, and when you give it commands it growls and acts like it might get mean if you push it. Wow! Really? And you think that is a normal relationship with a dog? Why do you assume that is not something seriously wrong with the owner? 

" pushing its way between adults on the couch"

It feels good to cuddle with your friends. That's all the explanation you need, and it would trump dominance any day.

" or being aggressive toward an SO being affectionate to their SO,"

Dogs start growling if you hug someone? Wow! What kind of relationship with an animal is that? This dog is so stupid that they don't understand the family unit? 

" refusing to be leashed up at a park"

As stated before, you have the full explanation if you have ever seen a five-year-old. They are having fun and don't want it to stop. At that moment, they aren't really thinking about you.

" or being collar aggressive are common problems."

Again with the dog aggression with its human. If I had that much "aggression" problem with any dog, I would be re-examining my own approach. Every dog I have ever had will put up with anything from its humans, without complaint, and no attempt to dominate them was required.

" Do not confuse my awareness of other people's dogs exhibiting these behaviors with my dogs having these issues."

Then how do you know they have them? How do you know they are not just inaccurately describing behaviors based on something they heard that has no basis in fact?

"Not sure where you saw that I said that my dogs bite me or are aggressive with me."

Your message is full of it. Where does all that "aggression" come from? If you don't see it in your dogs, then why do you assume that other people are doing their dog training correctly and interpreting behaviors correctly?

" I don't recall stating anything so totally false."

You are clearly hung up on aggression for some reason. It doesn't seem likely that all of that would be from hearing other people's stories.

" I did, however, mention my dominant dog not taking an UNFAIR correction. Got to admire a dog that will stand tall to defend himself. It will shine through if you ever really need him."

So your dog determines what is fair and then tells you to back off?? Wow, again! Never happened with me. Fair or unfair, the dogs accept it. BTW, that sounds like your dog is getting "aggressive" with you. If my dog did that I would wonder where I went wrong -- and I don't mean just that one correction.

"You stated: "The GSD is easily smart enough to tell that his life is better if he just submits and puts up with all your human BS." This is a GSD forum where a lot of people work their dogs. Submissive might be good for a busy young family but I doubt it would be conducive to any real work venues including sheep herding. I hear some rams can be quite large and recalcitrant."

Drop the word "submission" and replace it with "imprint". You will be closer to dog behavior.

"I am a firm leader not a tyrant that makes life and death decisions for my loved dogs based on a stolen roast."

If the dog doesn't learn basics like not to steal the family roast off the table, how long is that dog going to remain in your home? Dominance like that in a dog is playing with the rules of Darwin. Most people aren't going to want that dog around, which is going to seriously impact the dogs ability to produce more of its kind. 

I don't feel any need to describe myself as a "firm leader" or even think of it that way. Why does anyone even think like that?

" I value my dogs more that that and I am not motivated by ego or having to prove anything."

Uh-huh. Then what is "firm leader" about, if not ego? What is the whole "dominance" thing about, if not ego?

" We have a cooperative, two sided relationship.  My dogs lives matter."

Good for you. That doesn't mean they think they can take over the mortgage and prepare dinner.

"Seems to me that many 60-70# dogs are very willing to fight 240# men, just look at all of the Mal K9s and MWDs."

Yeah, not their particular human. Big difference. They will die for you and don't particularly care about other people. Who knew?

"Tell me, just how much experience do you have with German Shepherds and with what breeds are you primarily experienced? I suspect it's not the herders. "

70 years. Lots of different breeds and dozens of dogs. I never felt that any of them would dispute anything I told them. If I had any of those problems, I would re-examine my own behavior because having a good relationship with dogs is about the easiest thing you can do. 

The only reason you even have a dog is because they have bred themselves and been bred by humans to be the World's Greatest Cooperator. The idea that they moved into your home and accepted all that love and comfort and food because they want to dominate you is just silly.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

GSDchoice said:


> Well, few anecdotal notes from my experience...
> 
> I concluded that there are animal hierarchies / rankings but they do not often extend the hierarchy outside of their own species. Things that owners label as "dominance" are often more accurately labeled as "the dog has learned what it can get away with to get food/attention/toy". I think a lot of dogs get hit/jerked around/whacked/punished for "dominance" reasons when really what is needed is clear patient consistent training.


I think that's a pretty good summary of the situation. As I mentioned in the other post, the latest science attributes dog behavior to imprinting. Imprinting animals don't want to dominate their imprintee.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am early retired and a rabid hiker. I have three outdoor kennels and a yard fenced in two. The dogs get exercise on hikes and swimming as well as playing with each other in matched pairs, and yes, I even use dog parks when appropriate.
> 
> IMO, training is what one does to address a dog's drives. Off leash hiking without nagging the dogs accomplishes the same things as tracking, dock diving, agility, etc., all done on nature's playground as nature has provided. We are huge fans of Adventure Training here.


Whats involved in Adventure Training?


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

wm97 said:


> Dogs are the most successful animal evolution has ever produced. You might think it was humans, but think about the old Jerry Seinfeld joke. If you saw an animal walking down the street, with another animal walking behind it picking up its poop, who would you think was in charge?
> 
> I can go catch rabbits and eat them myself, or I can have my servants bring me freshly prepared meat twice a day. If the bigger dog takes my food dish, I know my servant will yell at them and comfort me and probably give me an extra treat in front of the bully just to spite them. Who really needs dominance over anything?
> 
> ...





MineAreWorkingline said:


> I believe that dominance is a range with submissive on one end being a 0, dominant on the other being a 10 with normal lying somewhere in the middle.
> 
> I think when most people have trouble with a dog and they blame it on dominance that the truth more likely is that the dog is a 4-6 on the scale while the human is a 2-3. Thus, it is not the dog being dominant that is the problem but often it is the human being submissive and ineffective.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> I believe that dominance is a range with submissive on one end being a 0, dominant on the other being a 10 with normal lying somewhere in the middle.
> 
> I think when most people have trouble with a dog and they blame it on dominance that the truth more likely is that the dog is a 4-6 on the scale while the human is a 2-3. Thus, it is not the dog being dominant that is the problem but often it is the human being submissive and ineffective.





wm97 said:


> "First I think you need to go back and amend your questions to include "done with aggression"."
> 
> Maybe you need to explain what "done with aggression" means, exactly. Just how suicidal are the dogs you are describing?
> 
> ...


I still can't believe that your calling dogs stupid bro! Like they have the capacity to comprehend something as complex as "Oh, no I shouldn't do that I might go to the pound." as if they know what that is to begin with LOL


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Whats involved in Adventure Training?


Not a fan of Stonnie Dennis? Lol

It is almost like perpetual exposure, taking them different places off leash and letting them explore and interact with the environment. IME it keeps frustration created behaviors to a minimum, builds a power relationship with the dog and creates a phenomenal recall.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not a fan of Stonnie Dennis? Lol
> 
> It is almost like perpetual exposure, taking them different places off leash and letting them explore and interact with the environment. IME it keeps frustration created behaviors to a minimum, builds a power relationship with the dog and creates a phenomenal recall.


I wish there were places I could take my boy off leash! ? That sounds like an awesome experience


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, I always thought that was called "Running Loose"


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@wm97 please relax and discuss your personal experience and observations only.We all have different perspectives and opinions based on our lives and dogs which should be respected.
This is not a contest.Picking apart other member's posts line by line to criticize their opinions and continuing to incite conflict is against forum rules.Let's all remain polite and civil while discussing this interesting topic.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

dogma13 said:


> @wm97 please relax and discuss your personal experience and observations only.We all have different perspectives and opinions based on our lives and dogs which should be respected.
> This is not a contest.Picking apart other member's posts line by line to criticize their opinions and continuing to incite conflict is against forum rules.Let's all remain polite and civil while discussing this interesting topic.


Everytime I see your name I think of the movie "Dogma" and your dog straight looks like Ben Afleck lol so rad


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

T'Challa! said:


> I still can't believe that your calling dogs stupid bro! Like they have the capacity to comprehend something as complex as "Oh, no I shouldn't do that I might go to the pound." as if they know what that is to begin with LOL


Well, as I stated before, if you tell the truth -- that the problem is really a stupid human, people get offended.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

wm97 said:


> Well, as I stated before, if you tell the truth -- that the problem is really a stupid human, people get offended. Therefore, to be polite, one has to blame it on the dog.
> 
> If you thought I was really talking about the dog --- well, maybe that's a clue all by itself.


As I have stated before blaming anything on the dog is close to a mental deficiency, it is only the Humans responsibility to train the dog. Also the Human isn't stupid for what they don't know


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Let's get back on track folks and keep the personal remarks private.Any personal conflicts can be resolved in private messages.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Let's get back on track folks and keep the personal remarks private.Any personal conflicts can be resolved in private messages.


Dogs operate in their own self interest.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

wm97 said:


> Well, as I stated before, if you tell the truth -- that the problem is really a stupid human, people get offended.


You're framing arguments as if dogs can make higher order mental leaps, connecting their actions with possible consequences and abstract ideas/concepts. You switch back and forth with your other argument using Occam's razor with dog thinking. It's not anywhere near as coherent and clever as you seem to think. 

You're also completely ignoring the effects of human decision making on breeding and the attributes of dogs breed for different jobs. A dog bred to fight human adversaries (to the death if need be) and breeder choses to ensure that will take place at the expense of manageability in a standard home, makes some dogs far different mentally than what you're describing. Some people on here have dogs with that in them, I'm thankful my Mal's breeder massively toned that down but it's in there and comes out with my wife sometimes. (She's pregnant and he believes it's his job to protect her and he's not real interested in her opinion of his methods, my opinion on the other hand is taken quite seriously). 

That's not touching on the differences in characteristics for a terrier vs a livestock guardian vs a cattle dog vs a sheep dog/gun dog vs pack tracking and how that plays out with aggression, biddability, dominance. 

You keep talking like dogs are just dogs and they're not. 

Also side note, conflating aggression and propensity for violence to guard resources in your home that represent _wants_ not _needs_ is not how I'd personally approach explaining dominance.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

Tennessee said:


> You're framing arguments as if dogs can make higher order mental leaps, connecting their actions with possible consequences and abstract ideas/concepts. You switch back and forth with your other argument using Occam's razor with dog thinking. It's not anywhere near as coherent and clever as you seem to think.
> 
> You're also completely ignoring the effects of human decision making on breeding and the attributes of dogs breed for different jobs. A dog bred to fight human adversaries (to the death if need be) and breeder choses to ensure that will take place at the expense of manageability in a standard home, makes some dogs far different mentally than what you're describing. Some people on here have dogs with that in them, I'm thankful my Mal's breeder massively toned that down but it's in there and comes out with my wife sometimes. (She's pregnant and he believes it's his job to protect her and he's not real interested in her opinion of his methods, my opinion on the other hand is taken quite seriously).
> 
> ...


Exactly! They are not JUST dogs, especially if you bring one into your home, treating him or her with the bare minimum is insane. Then just don't have a dog, get a fricken goldfish


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Thanks all who are responding in good faith and sharing your experiences and knowledge. It is very good reading.My tablet just died, so now I will be missing out. Again, thank you very much to those of you who are sharing what you know and think in a friendly discussion. I love your words, truly.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

T'Challa! said:


> I wish there were places I could take my boy off leash! ? That sounds like an awesome experience


There are. You just got to look for them.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There are. You just got to look for them.


Maybe, CA is hard to find them inside a 100 mile radius unless you're NOT in Orange County lol the search continues


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, I always thought that was called "Running Loose"


Sometimes, but I know of lots of people that only use specific walking circuits and never change, a lot of people mix in a LOT of obedience, many don't participate and explore with the dog and a lot of people simply don't let the dog follow his instincts and just be a dog when safety permits.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

T'Challa! said:


> I still can't believe that your calling dogs stupid bro! Like they have the capacity to comprehend something as complex as "Oh, no I shouldn't do that I might go to the pound." as if they know what that is to begin with LOL


I agree. Dogs don't have the capacity to choose between stealing a pot roast with the possibility of becoming homeless or worse. Their minds simply don't work like that.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yep, their minds just think, "POT ROAST. YUM." :?
However if in the past, they were negatively reinforced when sniffing at food on the counter/table, they may hesitate...(negative association with stealing food).
But I don't think they can think as far ahead as: "if I do this, they may abandon me at the pound." 

Yet they *do* know more than we think...
the first time we ever boarded our dog (rescue), we picked him up and he went berserk. Leaping, crying, whining, howling...it was like he thought, "What a relief! I thought you were never coming back for me and I would never see you again!! Like last time!" All the times after that, we pick him up and he is quite happy, but he never had that crazed reaction again. I think he realized that the boarding kennel is a temporary place - not abandonment...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sometimes, but I know of lots of people that only use specific walking circuits and never change, a lot of people mix in a LOT of obedience, many don't participate and explore with the dog and a lot of people simply don't let the dog follow his instincts and just be a dog when safety permits.


My dogs have offleash walks every day. Maybe they are much shorter than yours (probably) but they typically want more, particularly mental challenge, or maybe I have just conditioned them to want it, who knows.

I do get bored easily and so I change things up. I don't like to walk the same route every day. We have 2 loops through the woods on my property, and a 2 mile road walk which includes a decent offleash stretch. Sometimes I drive to down and leash walk them which they seem to find very interesting. I definitely think it makes a difference to them to see and smell and explore new things.

And I totally agree t hat dogs need to run free and be dogs, they are so happy and it makes me so happy to watch them. And bonus they are very mellow indoors which is how I like them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I feel like maybe people are more interested in dominance and hierarchies than dogs are...

And sometimes I definitely think it has to do with people's egos...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ckai said:


> As my mother liked to say “once you have 3, you may as well have 8.” She was referring to children, but it seems to be the same in dog terms too. When I’m down to one or two, I feel unsettled and have so much time on my hands that I start going coo coo. Once you have a large pack, it’s just second nature. And you feel naked without them.
> As for dominance in like species, it’s as complex as human personalities. Dogs do have their own personalities, and some are more dominate by means of confidence and being a natural leader, or taking a backseat to a more confident dog. And it can often change if the confident dog suddenly meets one that is more confident. I don’t hold with the theory that dogs see owners as pack leaders, that would be like saying a bird sees a turtle as being dominate over them. It’s not dominance over the dog, it’s not you being their pack leader, they see you as the person they love, that feeds them, plays with them, works them, trains them, and pets them. But they don’t have the ability to say “never been to the pound before, but I must fear it and bow down to the human because I don’t want to end up somewhere I’ve never even experienced.”
> And there are dogs out there that will in fact dominate a human through many means. There ARE owners out there that are incredibly subservient and more submissive, and can often fear their dog and give in to what the dog wants to prevent any discord in the environment. These have always been the most difficult clients to work with. Their dogs are incredibly easy to work with.
> But as far as like species of domesticated dogs go, there is definitely a pyramid structure in place.


I wish I could have a huge pack of dogs but the more I have the less I feel like I am spending the time I really want to with each one individually. I think the most I've had at a time was 4 but 2 of those were really content to just tag along with whatever anyone else was doing and didn't really need one on one time.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I feel like maybe people are more interested in dominance and hierarchies than dogs are...
> 
> And sometimes I definitely think it has to do with people's egos...


Where is the applause button?


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sometimes, but I know of lots of people that only use specific walking circuits and never change, a lot of people mix in a LOT of obedience, many don't participate and explore with the dog and a lot of people simply don't let the dog follow his instincts and just be a dog when safety permits.


Excuse me ma'am, I resemble that remark!

Not to get side tracked in the thread, but letting a dog run in the wild experience sights sounds and smells, while still being cognizant of where his leader is, is as you said NOT the same thing as turning them loose to do as they please. It's underrated training for a dog to simply experience things with you and still maintain "his head" so to speak. For reasons you could probably explain far better than me. Add another thing to the list I need to do more of with my dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tennessee said:


> Excuse me ma'am, I resemble that remark!
> 
> Not to get side tracked in the thread, but letting a dog run in the wild experience sights sounds and smells, while still being cognizant of where his leader is, is as you said NOT the same thing as turning them loose to do as they please. It's underrated training for a dog to simply experience things with you and still maintain "his head" so to speak. For reasons you could probably explain far better than me. Add another thing to the list I need to do more of with my dog.


Thank you! Actually there is much to be said for turning dogs out unsupervised as well but that's another topic and something I don't recommend in today's society. 

When I grew up, there were no leash laws and dogs ran free unsupervised. I can tell you stories about how intelligent those dogs were and how well behaved. I am going to venture to say that OP's dog has reaped some of those benefits and I recall Dave Winners talking about free roaming dogs in third world countries in the same light.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thank you! Actually there is much to be said for turning dogs out unsupervised as well but that's another topic and something I don't recommend in today's society.
> 
> When I grew up, there were no leash laws and dogs ran free unsupervised. I can tell you stories about how intelligent those dogs were and how well behaved. I am going to venture to say that OP's dog has reaped some of those benefits and I recall Dave Winners talking about free roaming dogs in third world countries in the same light.


if I had the space I’d love to let my pups out during the day to let them roam the property. If I could establish the boundaries for them of “their yard”.Thats the big dream.

but the requirement for our next house is enough yard to allow them to reach top speed chasing for a ball. My parents have a 8 acres and it’s incredibly nice to step out the side door and burn off their energy with a game when they’re getting antsy. Or a swim in the pond. They clearly love the relaxed rules and space that they don’t get at home on our .25 acre lot in a subdivision.

ButI think I’ve derailed enough!


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I never did answer the original question OP. Sorry.

It’s fluid in our home. Male Mal and female GSD separated by 1 year roughly. Our GSD is older and can be pushy and a bully. So there’s a hold over dynamic from when he was a puppy. But he has lines that he won’t cross and she backs down quickly if he gets angry. He ignores her or snaps back if she’s angry. Outside the home, he “switches on” and she’s obviously following not leading.

He’s also extremely focused on his people and she’s obviously a very distant 3rd in his hierarchy of concerns. So he’ll give her a pass on some behavior, solely (from all appearances) because he just doesn’t care about what she’s doing all that much.

It’s very interesting to see them with other dogs, as you’d think he’d be rougher but it’s just the opposite. It comes across as he’s so confident he’s the big dog around here he doesn’t have to “throw his weight around”. I don’t consider him dominant in the vein of a Pegge Police Dogs type but he’s extremely aggressive and has a killer instinct. So it can be a bit difficult to differentiate at times.

i believe it was mineareworkingline that mentioned her Mal pileon whenher alphadog starts barking. I’ve noticed the same, thought he was gonna kill my sisters dog when my female GSD got in a tussle with it. He knocked the GSD out of the way to get at a threat to “his pack” (My sister got a broken shelter dog that should have been put down, long story but the dog is extremely fear aggressive).

Anyways, thanks for starting this thread. Made me realize I don’t observe and understand either of my dogs as well as I’d like to. I had a lot of difficulty putting this into words. So thanks!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Tennessee said:


> They clearly love the relaxed rules and space that they don’t get at home on our .25 acre lot in a subdivision.


Our lot is about .11 of an acre, i feel your pain!


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Tennessee said:


> Anyways, thanks for starting this thread. Made me realize I don’t observe and understand either of my dogs as well as I’d like to. I had a lot of difficulty putting this into words. So thanks!


Wow, you have just given me the gift of a profound compliment. Thank you! I am so glad this is what it sparked. And thank you. I only have my tribe of two cats to observe.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

islanddog said:


> Wow, you have just given me the gift of a profound compliment. Thank you! I am so glad this is what it sparked. And thank you. I only have my tribe of two cats to observe.


@Tennessee also, you told the story well, describing behaviours observed, painting a picture without putting the stamp of judgement on it. This goes well with my morning coffee.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

GSDchoice said:


> Yet they *do* know more than we think...
> the first time we ever boarded our dog (rescue), we picked him up and he went berserk. Leaping, crying, whining, howling...it was like he thought, "What a relief! I thought you were never coming back for me and I would never see you again!! Like last time!" All the times after that, we pick him up and he is quite happy, but he never had that crazed reaction again. I think he realized that the boarding kennel is a temporary place - not abandonment...


I love that this discussion is touching on the vast unknown of what dogs do perceive and plan, theory of mind, that would make whole new avenue of exploration.
a little aside, but my dog HATES burrs, rips 'em out, but doesn't like me trying to gently comb them out--I now show him the process, or the result (the removed burr) -- he bites it or just shows his teeth at it, and is much more patient with the process. It costs me nothing to act like he understands and it seems to have results.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

T'Challa! said:


> Maybe, CA is hard to find them inside a 100 mile radius unless you're NOT in Orange County lol the search continues


Sometimes, a little rule breaking is in order for such things... The trails around where I live are technically leashed dogs only, but 98% of people don't appear to mind (some even compliment appreciatively) so long as your dog knows trail manners and displays excellent recall and obedience. If someone passed by walking, running, biking, and/or with a dog, our dogs are taught to ignore them and maintain a tight heel or a polite sit until they pass. Most folks are happier about our off-leash dogs than even on-leash dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This


Kyrielle said:


> Sometimes, a little rule breaking is in order for such things... The trails around where I live are technically leashed dogs only, but 98% of people don't appear to mind (some even compliment appreciatively) so long as your dog knows trail manners and displays excellent recall and obedience. If someone passed by walking, running, biking, and/or with a dog, our dogs are taught to ignore them and maintain a tight heel or a polite sit until they pass. Most folks are happier about our off-leash dogs than even on-leash dogs.


This, exactly. Leashed and under control are two separate things. I see a lot more out of control leashed dogs causing problems than any well behaved off leash dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had, at one point, 21 dogs. Pack consisted of male and female, altered and intact, pups, teens, adults and a senior, a variety of breeds, types and length of time with me. My observation was that although new additions may get some hazing no actual attacks occurred and the hazing was generally by members lower in the pecking order. It seemed that one intact bitch called the shots, but the one intact male occasionally seemed to as well. But I had a senior bitch who seemed to step in once in a while and change plans, lol. Pups were watched, played with and taught by all members. Newcomers were generally under my Danes guidance, probably because she had been around the longest and was the easiest going. Adolescents seemed to get the roughest treatment and it did not seem dependant on time in the pack. I saw almost zero resource guarding. And I wonder if what people see as fluid is actually just different members doing different jobs. 
One thing of note, poor behavior of any type, challenging me, fighting, stealing, etc was generally dealt with by being ignored by the pack until the offender "apologized".


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Fascinating thread.

I joined this forum to understand my GSD pup.

I have an interesting story about my 95 lb male black lab. He never showed the slightest signs of dominance towards other dogs. He just didn't care.

However, at day-care or a dog park, he turned into the kindergarten cop. Whenever an unruly dog came over and messed with him or another dog; he went really stiff, stared at them, and made a soft growl. After a few seconds, the other dog would slink away. Everybody would go back to playing.

He never barked or got into a fight. Just did his 'go stiff', stare, growl. He used to get free daycare because the staff liked having him around.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

davewis said:


> Fascinating thread.
> 
> I joined this forum to understand my GSD pup.
> 
> ...


Your lab sounds like what a lot of trainers & kennels call 'teacher dogs', because they do exactly as your lab did, keep everyone in line. They are fabulous. I would call them dominant, but I don't see dominance as a negative trait unless it's combined with negative action. I'd say when he was in a group, he called the shots, a benign dominance, like a kind parent letting the 'kids' play and referee-ing when necessary. That's my layman's take, anyway.
You're in a great place to learn about German Shepherds, lots of genuine experienced expertise here. Thanks for chiming in with your story on this thread, and give your 'teacher dog' a congratulations for being awesome.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Not knowing the commonly used word among dog behaviorists... and from this discussion, it appears that even the experts seem to use the word dominance rather loosely. Another way of looking at the issue might be to use three separate scales:

Dominant vs. Non-Dominant.
Aggressive vs. Non-aggressive.
Competitive vs. Cooperative.

While Dominant, Aggressive, and Competitive might commonly be found in the same dog, they don't necessarily mean the same thing.

I got Ole, the teacher dog, from a human society when he was about two. He had been returned twice because he was uncontrollable. All he needed was a 90-120 min off-leash each run through the woods EVERY morning. After an enjoyable romp in the woods, he became an ideal companion dog.

Luckily I was getting out of the military and working through some PTSD. A nice walk through the woods with a companion was ideal for us both.

Is anyone aware of any other good research on canine behavior? It seems a lot of people are passionate about a lot of different (and often conflicting) theories.

With the increase in drug and bomb-sniffing, there must be a pretty lucrative market for highly skilled and well-trained dogs.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

This is kind of along the lines of dominant behavior in dogs (with other dogs)...
that dog with tail up, ears up, forward stance...is how my dog greets all other dogs and how he acts whenever other dogs pass by...that is totally him! I didn't realize that this is considered "pushy", although I did know that he has conflict with other large male dominant dogs.


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