# Cadaver Dog-SOOO excited



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I just talked with the Lady that has most of the experience and say about our team. 

She said that they are in need of Cadaver Dogs.

I was like "REALLY? WE DO THAT?" and she said "Yes, but we would have to talk to our trainer about the materials." 

I told her that I am very interested in training Judge as a Cadaver dog and if we could talk this weekend about it and she said that I could even train Yukon as a Cadaver Dog despite his age. 

Oh my god I am sooo excited. 

So here are my questions. 

What does it take to train a Cadaver Dog?
How do you start? Of course find/indication/re-find as a foundation, right?

How long does it generally take?


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

I can't give you any info on that, but it sure sounds like an exciting thing to do with your dog!
Good luck with it!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks. This is so amazing. This trule is truly the land of all possibilities. In Germany I couldn't even get my hands on anything like that AT ALL. 

Now it all depends if the team has the materials to get us started. Please wish me luck!!! She said they are in need and we'll talk about it on Sunday.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

That is wonderful Mrs. K! Best of luck!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> So here are my questions.
> 
> What does it take to train a Cadaver Dog?
> How do you start? Of course find/indication/re-find as a foundation, right?
> ...


Are you going to be doing ONLY HRD or are you going to be expected to detect HR in your wilderness air scent requirements? The training for the indication is different. For wilderness air scent - you DO want the find, indication, refind - the same as for a live person or an article. For ONLY HRD dogs, they usually STAY with what they've found and indicate with a scratch, a sit, a down, or I also know a dog that points it with her nose as well.

You start by imprinting on material (aka human remains of some sort, or blood or hair/teeth etc). You reward every time the dog sniffs at or gets interested in it. Some dogs are naturally afraid of the smell - Madix and Mason (my two that I imprinted on it) were not so it was REALLY simple to get them into sniffing it and then reward. Then you start hiding it in REALLY simple spots, bring them around, when they sniff - you praise and reward. Once they are getting the hang of WHAT they're looking for, you start working in the indication. This is where the training is different for purely HRD dogs. For your pup I think this would be the chain. But, for your older dog who is used to training and probably won't be quite as frantic as pups usually are, you may start the indication right away. Madix was a REALLY focused puppy so I started luring him into a down as soon as he caught the smell (not with food though, with his toy and then tugging as the reward). 

Every dog learns differently and at a different pace. Plus it depends on what sources you get to work with. Mason could find something as little as a few teeth and a hank of hair...submerged in water. And he wasn't the best on our team. We usually told new members that they should expect a solid 1.5 years of training at the least to get their Field Support Certification and get their dogs to the level of deployment.

Hope this helps!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes your post really helped  , if I do the HRD I will be doing that only with Judge and Yukon. 
She said that usually they have SAR/HRD Dogs but the specialized dogs do the work much better and so I'd be training them in HRD only and Indra as my SAR dog. 

Hopefully we have the materials. It all comes down to that....


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

LadyLaw had posts about cadaver dogs a few weeks ago. I also believe that she trains and works her own cadaver dogs.
She could probably give you a lot of info.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ladylaw does have more experience than I do by far 

I have trained, nationally (NAPWDA, IPWDA advanced) ceritified (2008,2009,2010) and work a single purpose cadaver dog. For anything other than finding someone recently deceased on a wildnerness search I strongly support a single purpose dog.

What you do depends a lot on how the dog is used. Detection work is detection work and not rocket science. It helps a lot to have the handler have air scent experience and experience reading a dogs body language because it is critical to success (even with a trained indication). 

Other issues are legal issues (cadaver dogs frequently do wind up in court), serious training record documentation, search strategy, and now that you dog had indicated.......where is the body? That itself can be very difficult as scent can travel through soil, in groundwater, be released by vegetation etc. Criminal cadaver searches do not always take you into the nicest areas (needles on ground, got to meet a drug lord, chained pit bulls, etc.) 

I would say a brand new trainer AND a solid training program, maybe one year to get the dog up to a basic level (certify), but then what materials? You need the full spectrum and acess to small and large sources of various ages, type, and stages of decomp (not just the teeth, blood, and hair that some folks use) . Most certifications require dog to be at least 18 months old to test anyway.

Our team requires a person to have field experience with working an air scent dog before starting in on cadaver to build a foundation in "dog reading" and scent transport. and to make sure they have the right temperament to work in a crime scene type environment. Plus can they handle the dead people part of it too........

We don't do a refind with our cadaver dogs. We do a passive alert though I agree with ladylaw that, honestly, an agressive alert really should not be a problem (but it is with a lot of people) - You have to have your dog working in a fairly visual range so you can see / read the nuances of their body language. You really do.

The very first step is to make sure your dog is not averse to the odor. If the dog is, stop it. 2nd thing, most people really prefer ball crazy dogs and it definitely makes training a LOT easier. I have worked with both and will not even consider a food dog for cadaver work but that is personal preference.

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I did my imprinting with throws of scented towels (there is a whole sequence there) and went active to passive and I have a solid passive dog.

A lot of folks are really hot on Randy Hare and i want to get to one of his seminars.

The old school method of imprinting on lineups of blocks also has its adherants. 

I really don't have enough experience with the different methods to evaluate the pros and cons of each. My last certificaion test the "suggestion for improvment" was that the dog was solid, that I need more experience with working out strategy for different scenarios. 

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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Thank you so much for your input. I will definitely write down a couple of questions and will ask them of Sunday of how much of a spectrum and access to training we have and since it wouldn't make sense if we only have access to hair, blood and teeth.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

What does it take to train a Cadaver Dog?
How do you start? Of course find/indication/re-find as a foundation, right?

How long does it generally take? 



Well, I will probably be discouraging but I want you to know the pros and cons. 

The first thing is that the dog must have drive. NO food reward. The dog MUST have an insatiable desire for his reward be it ball,kong bumper or whatever because that is how a solid dog is imprinted. The dog must have rock solid nerves. If the dog passes eval then you have to address training aids. NO HAIR. Blood is of little use . Placenta is a marginal aid. If you do not have access to all types of decomposed tissue comprised of the entire spectrum of human decomposition,do not waste your time. I know this sounds harsh but it is true. 
The dog is not fully operational unless the dog's threshold is high enough for a full set of remains in the water or above ground, all the way down to a buried set of remains and disarticulated. It takes many months to train a dog for this field. Not to mention the dog must be proofed off of non target odors. It takes months for me to train the cadaver dogs for Iraq and Afghanistan and I am working multiple scenarios a day and their training continues once in theater. 
Human bone can be purchased but it is getting difficult to import and is very expensive. I just spent $700 for a partial skull, a long bone, a partial jaw and pelvis. Purchasing is the only way you will obtain bone. 
I will answer any questions you have gladly,but you must realize that this is not an easy endeavor. You must also check the laws in your state with regard to possession of HR>

I do NOT reccomend cross training. A live find dog should be seperate from a cadaver dog. There are problems with cross training and no dog is solid on separate indications. You will have limitations with the dog.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Getting samples is a problem right now. No good sources. We can talk more sunday....


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

This post just reminded me about a training event with the Sheriff's Dept this Friday.
Snohomish County Sheriff's Dept has a cadaver dog team and they are going to do a demonstration and Q&A session and might be offering up some following on training to some people... When I get my 2nd GSD in about 6 months (when Ze'eva is 1) I want to train it for cadaver or strictly for USAR OR avalanche rescue. So depending on how things go Friday I will know if I want to or not.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Not wanting to stray off topic, but can a person donate thier body for the use of cadaver training? Say along the same lines of donating it for research?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> Getting samples is a problem right now. No good sources. We can talk more sunday....


Access can be much harder for us civilians. We do get to work scenes right after a badly decomposed body has been removed and the site processed but have had a very few opportunities (other than drownings and old graves ) to work whole body scent. 

It is very different - hard on the dog - my own dog struggles with pinpointing an overwhelming source of scent - he does not fringe alert but you can see it is hard for him to work it out and pinpoint. Much easier to pinpoint a 5 gram shard of bone. All we can do is build experience there and at least know when the dog has hit a huge scent pool to help focus the effort (he goes frantic but some dogs ignore it)

Like everyone else, we do combine aids to make a bigger source but it really isn't the same.....


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Lilie said:


> Not wanting to stray off topic, but can a person donate thier body for the use of cadaver training? Say along the same lines of donating it for research?


 
Good idea! Anybody know?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So i shouldn't get my hopes up too much. It might be odd that somebody is that excited about that kind of work but I am just very interested in it and in Germany it is pretty much impossible to get to do any like that at all. 

However, I will take your advise and if it doesn't make any sense at all due to not having access to the spectrum I won't do it. I'd rather keep doing the wilderness SAR.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would definitely check it out and first thing I would ask it - do they get calls for it and are they used?

I went from live find to cadaver because half our call outs (about 15 of 30 a year) are for either drownings, or suspected shallow graves or locating scattered remains after some have been found by a hunter or a dog. 

We have had great success with finding the drowning victims but are still on a learning curve with the buried ones and are continuing to work on developing expertise there - most of the buried problems are speculative but with drownings they are pretty much almost always there

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For the donated body question. You know, very few people teams would be able to manage something that big. And there are a lot of complications with having such. Over time, I think you start to build the kind of relationships that you slowly begin to gain access to needed sites (but still if it is a possible crime scene...they don't need you there and you need to stay away)


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Getting samples is a problem right now. No good sources. We can talk more sunday....


Just a thought here (and a gross one at that, sorry) but would this be something... that... uhm... ladies could provide?

Tried to be as delecate as possible, sorry gentlemen!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

What about pseudo-scent?
CadaverDog.com - Human Remains Detection Canine Training


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You will hear emotional articles about pseudo from two sides but not a single police certificaiton organization here will allow you to certify on it and it is definitely not full spectrum.

I have seen solid cadaver dogs who have not trained on psuedo ignore it.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> What about pseudo-scent?


 
overpriced and worthless. Now that the mass spectrometer has given us knowledge of the 100s of VOCs produced by a decomposing body. It is cadaverine and putrecine in an alcohol carrier. Those are produced by decomposing animals as well as the fact that they are only produced during a certain phase of the decomposing process. Cannot replicate volume nor diversity of human remains.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Can you get in contact with your local law enforcement? Or research labs or medical schools etc etc. I know that blood banks also have been known to donate blood. 



Lilie said:


> Not wanting to stray off topic, but can a person donate thier body for the use of cadaver training? Say along the same lines of donating it for research?


Yes, you can - or at least my team had things "donated" to us. 

Also, we frequently would get placentas as a source to work with - donation obviously. Hair and teeth are easy to get from people (teeth as in kids losing teeth). 



Jax's Mom said:


> Just a thought here (and a gross one at that, sorry) but would this be something... that... uhm... ladies could provide?
> 
> Tried to be as delecate as possible, sorry gentlemen!


Yes, ANY sources are good. When I was going through school in my phlebotomy rotation, I brought in tubes of blood from class (without additive) so that we could pass it around and use it. We would put some on gauze and jar it with an exchangeable lid with holes in it. Or sometimes just the gauze out depending on level of difficulty.



ladylaw203 said:


> overpriced and worthless. Now that the mass spectrometer has given us knowledge of the 100s of VOCs produced by a decomposing body. It is cadaverine and putrecine in an alcohol carrier. Those are produced by decomposing animals as well as the fact that they are only produced during a certain phase of the decomposing process. Cannot replicate volume nor diversity of human remains.


Totally agree!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Europe may be different but I work in the blood banking industry and each item, down to every bar coded test tube has a complete chain of custody from collection to distribution or destruction. I have never once been able to secure blood that way (at least since 1999 when I started in SAR and I have been working in blood banking longer than that - for headquarters for a large institution). 

I don't find anything specific in the CFRs but there is a very clear letter from CBER on that.

If it is being done, it is the kind of thing that could cost an employee their job, depending on who they work for. 

But if you do succeed, there are numerous addiditives and anticoagulants in blood and more stuff to proof off of -

Interesting comment on the menstrual fluids. Most folks I know won't train on that or semen. I think they have different enough odors and are so widespread that you don't want the dogs hitting on them ........ same thing with sewage that also most certainly has the same odors and more human skin cells etc in it........


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

As far as I know it's pretty much impossible for anyone in Germany to get even close to train HRD Dogs. It's mainly done via law-enforcement. There are few HRD dogs out there and some organizations do train them nonetheless but it's impossible for normal people like you and me to get your hands on. Except you want to train Waterdogs. Dogs that sniff it out in the water. That is different.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I guess they are too busy making "art" out of human bodies . Isn't that a German fellow?

Seriously if it is restricted but your trainer can get solid access.....it is a real service. 

I was not meaning to be down about the types of sources. I, too, have spent a lot of money on bones and here people can often "take" their own surgical remants so I have some of that stuff like peices of gut, fat and tissue, skin, fresh femoral heads, etc. It is very important to train on fresh as well as decomp.....when I first started with fresh sources my dog went ?wtf? and gave a confused partial alert....it is one of the hardest to get because you keep your old stuff (now you need a separate freezer)....

Seriously before I did it I would take a blood borne pathogens course, haz mat, (whatever they do in Germany) and make sure you have had a hepatitis b shot. 

Would be interested in what they do for water. I would say most of our cadaver calls are for drownings - and we have trained on divers but not exclusively and diver training is not much help if they have been down in warm water for a few days.

Ladylaw is not so fond of dirty dirt (dirt from under a decomposing body) but I am not really clear why IF it is one of many sources. It is definitely incredibly potent stuff and very easy to come by. Also, old graves ...... of course.........there again.......your dog alerts in the woods......it actually could be someone buried in the 1800s........we have trained on old unmarked slave graves and WOW........


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Ladylaw is not so fond of dirty dirt (dirt from under a decomposing body) but I am not really clear why IF it is one of many sources.


I'll take a stab at it (no pun intended). I'm assuming if you're using "dirty dirt" as a training source you're not really training on simply dead body smell--you're really training on dead body and dirt smell combo....adding a smell that SHOULD mean nothing to do dog into the training mix.

I imagine a little like training on blood soaked clothes that have also been spraying with perfumes. Or blood with additives.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> I'll take a stab at it (no pun intended). I'm assuming if you're using "dirty dirt" as a training source you're not really training on simply dead body smell--you're really training on dead body and dirt smell combo....adding a smell that SHOULD mean nothing to do dog into the training mix.
> 
> I imagine a little like training on blood soaked clothes that have also been spraying with perfumes. Or blood with additives.


True.........the dirt becomes part of the matrix but, in this case, that is natural decomp as the dirt contributes bacteria that would be added in nature........you would certainly have to proof of of dirt and vegetative decomp as well as animal decomp.........by the same token, fabric has its own odor.........


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> True.........the dirt becomes part of the matrix but, in this case, that is natural decomp as the dirt contributes bacteria that would be added in nature........you would certainly have to proof of of dirt and vegetative decomp as well as animal decomp.........by the same token, fabric has its own odor.........


But....that's only if there is a buried body versus in plastic bags or indoors somewhere. Dirt is something that isn't always there. And, for that matter...sand versus clay versus another kind of dirt can be quite different.

And the fabric odor...isn't that why it is encouraged to have as "pure" of samples as possible? It seems like an ideal would to NOT have to use fabric at all?....although I'm sure that's very hard to come by.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No dirt is not always there, , plastic bags are not always there, glass containers are not always there, ...but sometimes they are........but that is why you have to use the matrix as distracter odors so the dog knows not to hit on them in the abscence of human scent....... and that is why you don't train on any one thing exclusively.....

Because dirt is not always there, that would imply we should never train on shallow graves.....Think about it....you need to train on adipocere, but that is not always there nor are mummified remains....but they definitely smell different event to us...not discounting that there may be a good argument NOT to use dirty dirt as one of many training aids but I don't think that is it.

I think where people get into a problem is when they train on only a few aids because that is all they can get..........and don't proof off of the carrier. We even had one problem where we figured out the dog was not alerting on dry bones but his handler was not using gloves to put them out (because they were, after all, old safe bones) and the dog was alerting on the handler's scent. ....... took that out of the equation and made the dog work for the bones alone.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am thinking maybe one problem with dirt is you really have to keep it frozen because the scent will dissipate but then you just have the scent of dirt. My dirt is so bad that I gag when I take it out of the freezer and don't re-use it after it has been out.................and it was from a really bad scene because we got to work the body and we know it was soaked with decomp.


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