# I have seen the sticky notes



## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

Please understand, I have seen the sticky note posts about aggression and fear in puppies. However, it seems my family's circumstance is a little different. Our puppy is fine with other dogs and is timid with strangers but she growls at our only kid (16). We have always had large dogs- usually Rhodesian ridgebacks. One of our 3 died in July from cancer. The other 2 are older, 9 and 10 years. We wanted to liven up our house and decided on a rescue puppy. My husband and I drove hours to meet and adopt our GSD mix, Piper. When we got her she was 12 weeks old. We have always had dogs in our lives and knew the red flags to look for and she showed none of them upon meeting her. 

We brought her home and she seemed to exhibit fear we didn't see when we went to adopt her but she had been with her siblings. Piper seemed to relax and be happy around our other dogs. Our 2 dogs did more than their share of helping us potty train Piper and help Piper learn other common commands used in the house. They also helped a lot with crate training as Piper just seemed to do whatever they did  The first few days we let her be so she could get acclimated on her terms. She would be under our tables or behind chairs from time to time but we left her alone and she slowly got more comfortable. Fast forward 4 days later and our 16 year old son came home. He had been away at a camp he was working at and Piper was supposed to be a happy surprise. Well she growled at him. OK. So he left her alone for a few days and let her be. Meanwhile, we contacted a trainer who came to the house and gave us some great tips on helping our son and puppy bond. 

He never approached her so it was always on her terms, he would always give her treats when he was around, he would sit quietly on the floor and wait to see if she would approach him on her own. The trainer believed Piper is not aggressive, she's fearful of our son. We only have the one kid. Being a teenager and it was summertime (July) he wasn't around a lot between work and social life but we tried really hard desensitizing Piper to our son. She still growled when he would startle her- like if we didn't know he was coming out of his room in the mornings, entering the kitchen, coming into the house, etc. We would always continue the tips the trainer said and not punish for her growls but mainly ignore her and limit son's interaction if she was showing fear. 

Piper also took the puppy training course. We were also socializing her a lot- trips in the car almost every day to Home Depot, nearby parks, the beach on the weekends, etc. some with our son but he wasn't able to go on every car ride with us. In the car, she would curl up next to him and snuggle. And she would still occasionally growl at him. We were even staying up late at night so when he came home we could give her treats and she see that good things happen around him. We took a weekend family trip and brought Piper. That went great and we figured we were over the growling stage at our son but when we came home, she growled. Ugh. 

Piper has been with us now for about 4 months and she is a normal loving dog with my husband and I but still growls at our son. We have football Sundays and she'll sit on the couch next to him and jump up on his bed and then when we least expect it, she growls (and only at him). She is not dog reactive and loves all other dogs. She is wary of strangers but will go up to anyone on her terms. 

She is now 6 months old and I am wondering what else can we honestly try? It probably bothers me more than anyone else in the family. Piper has gotten a lot better with our son but we thought the growling would have been diminished by now with Piper's people in the house. Some of you may say something may have happened to her by a teenageer prior to her coming to us but her foster family says she had teens coming and going all the time and the puppies loved them and they loved the puppies. Not saying that's the truth but that's what I have to go on.

We have been non stop in allowing/helping Piper to be comfortable around our household. Hoping there is someone out there that has a suggestion we haven't tried.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's pretty much impossible to diagnose exactly what's going on without having eyes on the dog,but here's a couple of thoughts:It's possible you made too big of a deal about the growl and inadvertently encouraged it. The extra attention,treats, and feelings of tension could result in Piper feeling anxious every time your son is around.
If that sounds correct to you, try again to ignore the growl.No affection, treats,or any fuss whatsoever.Shining a spotlight on a behavior you don't want tends to reinforce it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Look back at the interaction and the timing of rewards - Is it possible she is getting rewarded for growling? Only other thought I have is that maybe this is her way of trying to engage him? As in my dogs can bark and growl at me when they want some action (after staring doesn't work.)


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

We were using the treats as a distraction and keeping her focus off of our son coming in a room or the house. If she growled, she didn't get a treat. Will try to completely ignore it! Thanks.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GSDmix said:


> We were using the treats as a distraction and keeping her focus off of our son coming in a room or the house. If she growled, she didn't get a treat. Will try to completely ignore it! Thanks.


Distraction from what? If you bring out the treats when she even attempts a growl or shows a stare, it can be a reward. Can you post a video of her growling routine? I agree with the above responses. You could try to have your son feed her, take her out, walk her; basically provide the good stuff in combination with ignoring her. I would not allow her on the bed or couch or anywhere where she can start a resource issue against him. I am curious about her body language. She hasn't bitten anyone?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would implement NILIF immediately, and have him feed her all meals.
And it will do you a lot of good to keep the dog off your furniture


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Get rid of the 16-year old ASAP

Seriously, if your 16 year old is like most 16 year old's, they aren't really part of the family environment (save for Sunday football). They spend 80% of their time in their room on their phones, 10% in the shower and 10% to eat and go back. I bet she doesn't view him as part of the household. My experience with pre-teen and teen kids, they want the dog to interact with them on their own terms, which generally means the 10 minutes a day gratification they want when they come home from school before going to their room.

I could be all wrong. Has your son tried to throw her a ball by himself in the backyard or take her for a walk or hike, again, by himself? Of course the growl behavior in general is something you want to work on.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> Get rid of the 16-year old ASAP
> 
> Seriously, if your 16 year old is like most 16 year old's, they aren't really part of the family environment (save for Sunday football). They spend 80% of their time in their room on their phones, 10% in the shower and 10% to eat and go back. I bet she doesn't view him as part of the household. My experience with pre-teen and teen kids, they want the dog to interact with them on their own terms, which generally means the 10 minutes a day gratification they want when they come home from school before going to their room.


Do you have a camera in my house?:grin2:

Oh, and you meant 10 seconds, not 10 minutes. My 16-year-old pets the puppy for 10 seconds and then I never see him until he’s hungry LOL.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Even if your son is not around much at this point 4 months you have had this pup and should know who is part of the immediate family and who is not. This is behavior would be very concerning To me the nervy behavior. Does he only do this with your son and not other guests. If the person was a visiting relative that came around every few months I would be less concerned unless the was like this with everyone who came Into the house. I would not hAve your son handle the dog directly but go on group family walks. It is important to get a reputable trainer familiar with gsds because fear aggression can be a real serious issue especially when it’s been practiced.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I would start NILIF. Obviously with your son's schedule he cant be the sole caretaker/trainer/giver but honestly that should not matter. She needs to be disciplined for growling at your son. And things like a spot on the couch, bed etc are earned not just given. She is 6 months old? Old enough for a sharp correction. I would look for a balance trainer who is not positive only and does not have an issue with corrections. Good luck, hope you can find some good help for your situation.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

I read that this issue bothers you more than any one else so if your son doesn't really truly want to fix this then my thoughts here won't work....but if the 16 year olds heart is in it AND he sees this as an issue also....then i would let Piper become "his" dog...he feeds her...he lets her in and out....most important he works with her as far as leash training and whatever she likes to do for play time.....I'm not saying for the two parents to ignore Piper....nope.....just let your son take the lead for a while....I get he's 16 and likely not home all the time.....but if his heart is in it try this...I don't think limiting interaction with your son will fix anything and frankly with a dog that's nervous....may make it worse...


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Shane'sDad said:


> I read that this issue bothers you more than any one else so if your son doesn't really truly want to fix this then my thoughts here won't work....but if the 16 year olds heart is in it AND he sees this as an issue also....then i would let Piper become "his" dog...he feeds her...he lets her in and out....most important he works with her as far as leash training and whatever she likes to do for play time.....I'm not saying for the two parents to ignore Piper....nope.....just let your son take the lead for a while....I get he's 16 and likely not home all the time.....but if his heart is in it try this...I don't think limiting interaction with your son will fix anything and frankly with a dog that's nervous....may make it worse...


Yup


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have a different take on this. Is she growling or just talking? What is her body language when she's growling? Is she moving away from him? Acting afraid? 
I have a dog that snarls and shows her teeth only at me. Usually while she is rolling on the bed with me and licking my face. I had another that sounded like an angry bear as she followed me around the house and still another that growled and swung her head back and forth while circling me and wagging her tail.


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> Distraction from what? If you bring out the treats when she even attempts a growl or shows a stare, it can be a reward. Can you post a video of her growling routine? I agree with the above responses. You could try to have your son feed her, take her out, walk her; basically provide the good stuff in combination with ignoring her. I would not allow her on the bed or couch or anywhere where she can start a resource issue against him. I am curious about her body language. She hasn't bitten anyone?


Yes, my son walks her when we take the dogs walking, he lets her out back and back inside, and he feeds her when he is around. We will need to start keeping her off the couch but he rarely comes in that room so I don't think it's a resource issue. And she has never ever snarled or shown her teeth. Only emits a really low growl that is short but present. No she hasn't bitten anyone nor has lunged.


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Get rid of the 16-year old ASAP
> 
> Seriously, if your 16 year old is like most 16 year old's, they aren't really part of the family environment (save for Sunday football). They spend 80% of their time in their room on their phones, 10% in the shower and 10% to eat and go back. I bet she doesn't view him as part of the household. My experience with pre-teen and teen kids, they want the dog to interact with them on their own terms, which generally means the 10 minutes a day gratification they want when they come home from school before going to their room.
> 
> I could be all wrong. Has your son tried to throw her a ball by himself in the backyard or take her for a walk or hike, again, by himself? Of course the growl behavior in general is something you want to work on.


Yes, my 16 year old is exactly as you describe. He does try to throw a ball by himself, many times. She may or may not play with him. Things could be great outside between them, and they come back in. She may not growl the remainder of the day and the next morning, low growl when he gets up. It's almost like how she greets him. He has taken her for walks, alone and with us. When they are alone, I watch from the windows and she's looking back at the house and he's on his phone. 

Agree- we have been working on growling behavior the entire time we have her. Haven't let up one day.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

GSDmix said:


> Yes, my 16 year old is exactly as you describe. He does try to throw a ball by himself, many times. She may or may not play with him. Things could be great outside between them, and they come back in. She may not growl the remainder of the day and the next morning, low growl when he gets up. It's almost like how she greets him. He has taken her for walks, alone and with us. When they are alone, I watch from the windows and she's looking back at the house and he's on his phone.
> 
> Agree- we have been working on growling behavior the entire time we have her. Haven't let up one day.


Good luck. Yes, the growling has to be dealt with as you know and are trying. Just thought I would weigh in from experience. Not the same as yours, but we have a 13-year old girl in the house, who pretty much is in her room on her phone 95% of the time she is with us. She spends half the time split between Mom and Dad. She just can't understand why Frisco doesn't get as excited as he gets when he sees me vs. when she walks in the door. Well, 10 minutes a day does not equal a bond. She also doesn't show excitement or engagement when she walks in the door, she just expects him to go crazy.

In general, the decision to get a pet should never factor in the false promises of children of any age. They just don't do what they say or they are "annoyed" by having to do what they said they will do. Frisco is my dog, he is my GF's dog, he is an acquaintance of her children.

Anyway, off my soapbox!


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Good luck. Yes, the growling has to be dealt with as you know and are trying. Just thought I would weigh in from experience. Not the same as yours, but we have a 13-year old girl in the house, who pretty much is in her room on her phone 95% of the time she is with us. She spends half the time split between Mom and Dad. She just can't understand why Frisco doesn't get as excited as he gets when he sees me vs. when she walks in the door. Well, 10 minutes a day does not equal a bond. She also doesn't show excitement or engagement when she walks in the door, she just expects him to go crazy.
> 
> In general, the decision to get a pet should never factor in the false promises of children of any age. They just don't do what they say or they are "annoyed" by having to do what they said they will do. Frisco is my dog, he is my GF's dog, he is an acquaintance of her children.
> 
> Anyway, off my soapbox!


Exactly! The last 3 dogs we got as puppies, our son was between and 5 and 6 years of age. Completely different. Thank you for your perspective. My husband and I have already discussed the age difference between our last dogs and now. And in less than 2 years he is off to college. We got this puppy as our dog knowing son would be leaving anyway. But still, we were hoping for better interaction on both parts. It would keep my stress level down, lol.


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I have a different take on this. Is she growling or just talking? What is her body language when she's growling? Is she moving away from him? Acting afraid?
> I have a dog that snarls and shows her teeth only at me. Usually while she is rolling on the bed with me and licking my face. I had another that sounded like an angry bear as she followed me around the house and still another that growled and swung her head back and forth while circling me and wagging her tail.


When she growls there is no set event that sets her off except the fact he's "moving" into a room or into the house. It isn't every time that she does it. And it almost seems like a startling growl. It's low and she keeps it short. Sometimes she backs away and sometimes she doesn't but she has never lunged or shown her teeth. My husband and I do think it's almost how she talks to him. They seem to have good days together and bad. We recently went on a trip and she shared the hotel bed with him- they were totally fine. So weird. 

Thank you for your input


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDmix said:


> When she growls there is no set event that sets her off except the fact he's "moving" into a room or into the house. It isn't every time that she does it. And it almost seems like a startling growl. It's low and she keeps it short. Sometimes she backs away and sometimes she doesn't but she has never lunged or shown her teeth. My husband and I do think it's almost how she talks to him. They seem to have good days together and bad. We recently went on a trip and she shared the hotel bed with him- they were totally fine. So weird.
> 
> Thank you for your input


I am still inclined to think she is talking not growling. Is it possible to get a trainer to observe this? Or could you get a video of it? I would be really curious to see what is actually going on. 
I keep hoping @David Winners will weigh in here. 
One caution I will give you, I never correct growling. I find the cause and work on that but stopping a dog from growling has the potential to create a dog that will snap or bite with no warning. It's like taking the batteries out of your smoke detector.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Piper was twelve weeks old when you got her and she was more comfortable with dogs than with humans. So she has had marginal exposure to people in her most formative time. She might have been ok with your son if he had been there at the time you took her home. However she met him like a dog alerts when a strangers comes in the house. Even 16 year old males can have that male-look when meeting a new pup; focused, which could have set her off. The first impression might not have been good and for this pup it was hard to heal from.
I have seen this in some clients' dogs who were adopted from a shelter, under socialized and taken home by one of the couple, resulting in a fear from the partner who was not there at the adoption. To the dog, this person does not belong in the family. A socialized dog doesn't have issues to adjust in that situation, maybe curious and surprised but not fearful.
Looking at it from this perspective I think it has nothing to do with your son but more with being under-exposed to people in her early puppy hood unless her wiring or genetic makeup is off.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

The more OP comments I read I'm inclined to agree with Sabis Mom. I wonder if Piper is just trying to say hey I would like some attention from you ... grumble grumble. 
I wonder what would happen if your son entered the home calling Piper to him to say hello and then went about his business. When he sees her if he just talked to her before she might growl. When she growls (if that is what it is) looks at her and says something like "who are you growling at or are you talking to me" then asks for a sit from Piper. When she sits he greets and praises her. Thus not so much correcting the growl but redirecting to a good behavior that warrants praise. 

It not exactly the same thing but my girl moans at me when she wants attention she feels she isn't getting. It's different with my hubs. If he is on the computer (which is a lot for his job) she will at times lay near him and out of the blue will give a him a low growl. Short, not teeth, she is laying down most times. It's her way of telling him she doesn't like him not acknowledging her. His response is always verbal. "yes I see you" "I'm busy we'll play soon" or "what" which usually is followed by her getting up and sitting next to him for a pet, ear scratch and a bit of attention. She is just talking to him in dog speak. 
With out actually seeing the behavior and body language it's impossible to say for sure what is happening over the internet. If it is Piper trying to communicate a desire for attention it would be important not to inadvertently reward the growl itself. Thus ask for a desired behavior then praise and see if it changes things.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

On the couch thing ------ get her butt off the furniture until she behaves. Not so much resource guarding as a sense of PRIVILEGE --- which absolutely has to be earned. Dog gets snotty, dog gets booted off the furniture. 



You can also look at the NILIF and the idea that if dog is behaving poorly, dog gets absolutely no attention from anyone in the household -- all she gets is food, water, let out, brought in. She gets shunned for about a week. This can give you an amazing turnaround. I think I got this from Bill Campbell's website. It works. No body, not your son, no other family member, has anything to do with Ms. butthead. For a week. In truth I only had to do this for about 4 days but I'm a one person household.


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> Piper was twelve weeks old when you got her and she was more comfortable with dogs than with humans. So she has had marginal exposure to people in her most formative time. She might have been ok with your son if he had been there at the time you took her home. However she met him like a dog alerts when a strangers comes in the house. Even 16 year old males can have that male-look when meeting a new pup; focused, which could have set her off. The first impression might not have been good and for this pup it was hard to heal from.
> I have seen this in some clients' dogs who were adopted from a shelter, under socialized and taken home by one of the couple, resulting in a fear from the partner who was not there at the adoption. To the dog, this person does not belong in the family. A socialized dog doesn't have issues to adjust in that situation, maybe curious and surprised but not fearful.
> Looking at it from this perspective I think it has nothing to do with your son but more with being under-exposed to people in her early puppy hood unless her wiring or genetic makeup is off.


We know she was under exposed to people. She showed no signs of fear or aggression until we got home. And since then, over many happy hours discussing piper, we think that taking her away from her (alpha) sibling did her in. If we could have taken both puppies we would have. In hindsight, yes, we wish our son had not been away at camp but we we never would have thought about fear issues since she was only 12 weeks old and showed no signs when we met her- 
We socialize her at different places with people at least 5 times a week. Plus, she sees our son a few times a day coming and going.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

When they are alone, I watch from the windows and she's looking back at the house and he's on his phone.

Maybe, suggest he keeps off his phone while walking Piper. While on his phone, he's not engaging/interacting/connecting with Piper, and she'd be aware of this.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Get a behavior specialist to evaluate your son and Piper together. She may not be growling as people say, but talking to him. My dogs bark a greeting when anyone but me walks into a room, even family members. You said it’s only when your son is moving or walking into a room. She could be scared by quick movements. I would use a trainer and also insist he get into obedience with her, or it could escalate into something more. I hate when kids are on phones and ignoring their dogs. Even worse when out on walks. Dogs need some attention.

I had a foster Ridgeback that growled at men and eventually escalated into biting. The point of mentioning that is the two breeds seem similar but are very different types of dogs. You could just need more GSD experience.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> One caution I will give you, I never correct growling. I find the cause and work on that but stopping a dog from growling has the potential to create a dog that will snap or bite with no warning. It's like taking the batteries out of your smoke detector.


This is SO true. I have a "one-correction" kind of guy and I accidentally corrected the growl out of him. About a year ago he growled at a client, and without thinking, I yelled "Rumo-No!". I was very apologetic to my client and upset with him. Apparently it made a deep impression. 

This past summer, my sister-in-law was visiting. On the third day of her visit, she bent to pet Rumo who was laying on his dogbed. He accepted her petting for a minute and then - with no warning at all - he lunged and bit her forearm. It was a highly restrained bite (reddened skin, no puncture) but it was truly horrible because without his usual first low rumbling growl, he was like an unpredictable striking snake.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There is no way to tell, over the internet, if this is a warning growl, excitement, communication that she wants attention or to play, or anything else it may be.

Does she like to tug? Is she verbal when playing roughly?

For reference, dogs can be all over the scale when it comes to growling. I've had rotties that grumbled all the time and sounded ferocious when playing hard. Fama would often growl in excitement when I got home. She never growled or barked when she was serious unless she was restrained or given a command. I have one Cane Corso that almost never makes a sound and another that talks all the time.

You don't have the experience necessary to read the dog and know what mindset it is in. What does your trainer say about this? They should be observing this behavior and advising you on what to do. 

This advice could be completely counterintuitive depending on why the dog is growling. If the dog is fearful you would want to work on removing the fear. If the dog is aggressive you would want to teach boundaries. If the dog is talking, you would want to ignore the behavior because it's harmless, or teach another behavior that is more successful for the dog. 

No one can give you meaningful advice without having eyes on the dog when this behavior happens.


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