# Is NILIF a nasty dog training tool?



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I tried NILIF with my dog when he first began displaying dominance issues. I based this training off of a book I read-but we never made it very far. My dog has a very stubborn streak in him and even though he knows how to sit-at the time he would not obey on the first command. When he was a puppy he was not very food driven and so he would much rather walk away and not eat at all than obey the command to sit. After attempting this I realized that he very well may miss quite a few meals before he would comply so I just went ahead and set his food down anyways after he had missed one meal for not listening-I just could not leave him without eating.

He does sit and politely waits for his food now but I trained him to obey the command by using tasty treats and rewarding him for good behavior instead of denying him resources for bad behavior. I came across this article, so what are your thoughts on it?

Is NILIF Nasty? | Dog Star Daily


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I didn't vote, because I have used it,
but don't consistently use it(for a foster or new dog, maybe, yes)
I do practice it with my kids however!
The link you posted had a blog with opinions. 
I liked this one, it is the same as mine:

*Only 1 tool? Really?*
_*On May 28th, 2010 Sumiso says:*
I always find discussions like this fasciating. I'm not a BA in whatever or a CPDT, but I use a variety of tools and principals depending on the situation and the dog. I've always viewed NILF as a tool, but not a program really. Most people don't have the kind of dedication required to take away everything a dog wants/desires and make them earn it. But really is there fault in requesting a sit before a dog takes off out the door?

NILF (which is an awful name, considering what *else* appears when you google it), is just a tool guys. There are lots of them. Not every tool works for every dog. Just as a hyperfood-motivated dog becomes brain dead when doing lure work, there are some dogs that will shrink when any social pressure is applied. In addition, not every handler can use every tool. Not every handler has a great timing to using shaping effectivly - like me.

In performance work, we know to beware the trainer who only has one tool to solve a problem. I'd hope that the training community can think broadly enough to help its members have multiple tools to address issues in a household using a variety of tools effectivly. Life is too short to pick fights._


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

:rolleyes2:

Just like every other training tool... There are people who do not understand it, abuse and/or take it too far. But, no, NILIF done correctly is not a nasty training tool.

The good part of that article is that it recognizes that the "pack leader" stuff is crap.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

The person who wrote that blog is Kelly Gorman Dunbar-here is a link that describes who she is. Kelly Gorman Dunbar

Here is a portion of her blog-

"It’s a lot of work. More work than most people have the time or inclination for, because if you are going to limit your dog from the joys of life without your exclusive involvement you better **** well make sure that you’re spending a lot of time with your dog, getting him out and making sure his physical and mental needs are being met on a daily basis. It’s very easy for a dog to become neglected in this type of situation if the handler is lazy, not careful, of becomes desensitized to a *dog living in a box.* In its worst form dogs are put away like sports equipment when not being “used”.
While there are some circumstances where NILIF can be employed skillfully and may be an *o**ccasional wise tool of choice* (never say never), I also believe that it can be abused or become the hallmark of lazy training. Not lazy in the sense that it’s easy, I’ve already said that it’s a lot of work to properly care for and train a dog under these conditions time wise, but lazy in a sense of creativity and relationship with a dog. It’s relatively easy to get a dog to do your biding or find you the most interesting thing in the world when he’s got absolutely nothing else going on in his life, no free will and no options."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I put no, though there may be things in NILIF that I use. I really don't know because I have never really persued it.

However, from what I have read, it seems like a non-confrontational type of leadership that helps dog owners build a better relationship with their dog or dogs. I haven't ever heard of any dog being screwed up because the owners used NILIF methods. And any method of training can be misinterpreted and poorly applied. 

I think that most of the time dogs can thrive in any situation where there is structure, patience, consistency, training, and exercise. Some of us need some type of guide or map in one or more of those areas. And lots of dogs do fine even though we are less than perfect. For those dogs that need more structure, patience, consistency, training, and exercise, stuck with an owner who needs some type of guide or map, I think that NILIF, is probably better than many others, considering how many people seem to have very positive experiences with it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I prefer to think of it as "All Good Things Come From Me" rather than "Nothing in Life is Free." The latter makes it sound worse than it is, IMO.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I used it a lot when I first got her. She needed boundaries hardcore. Now I'm a little more relaxed with it, but when she starts getting pushy she starts having to work for everything again, just to reestablish how things are going to go in my house. She does have to sit for her meals, and give me eye contact. She does have to wait until I give her the ok to go out the door. But does she have to work for affection? Nope. That stuff's for free  My big thing is balance and fairness. So yes I use NILF, but am I militant about it? No.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This article explains NILIF for those that aren't familiar with it.
Nothing in Life is Free


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I prefer to think of it as "All Good Things Come From Me" rather than "Nothing in Life is Free." The latter makes it sound worse than it is, IMO.


I like your concept but AGTCFM doesn't quite roll off the tongue like NILF lol!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have never heard of withholding food for bad behavior in regards to NILIF. My dogs never really do any bad behavior though. They simply do doggy things and I don't think they have a concept of bad.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i use MILIF (Most In Life Is Free).


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I wouldn't say I use it in every single aspect of a dogs life, but I like to make a dog earn a treat or their food instead of just expecting it.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why??? 



Lucy Dog said:


> I wouldn't say I use it in every single aspect of a dogs life, but I like to make a dog earn a treat or their food instead of just expecting it.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> This article explains NILIF for those that aren't familiar with it.
> Nothing in Life is Free


Here is a copy and paste from your link-



"YOU HAVE THE POWER"
"As the human and as his owner you have control of *all things* that are wonderful in his life. *This is the backbone of the NILIF program.** You control all of the resources.* Playing, attention, *food*, walks, going in and out of the door, going for a ride in the car, going to the dog park. *Anything and everything that your dog wants comes from you. *If he's been getting most of these things for free there is no real reason for him to respect your leadership or your ownership of these things. Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge. 

To implement the NILIF program you simply have to have your dog earn his use of your resources. *He's hungry? No problem, he simply has to sit before his bowl is put down. *He wants to play fetch? Great! He has to "down" before you throw the ball. Want to go for a walk or a ride? He has to sit to get his lead snapped on and has to sit while the front door is opened. He has to sit and wait while the car door is opened and listen for the word (I use "OK") that means "get into the car". When you return he has to wait for the word that means "get out of the car" even if the door is wide open. Don't be too hard on him. He's already learned that he can make all of these decisions on his own. He has a strong history of being in control of when he gets these resources. Enforce the new rules, but keep in mind that he's only doing what he's been taught to do and he's going to need some time to get the hang of it all."

My question is-you control ALL of his resources so he is made to feel that he is at your mercy or he will not survive-I don't really like this idea. Then what do you do with a stubborn dog that just won't sit? Do you give him his food anyways, or do you hold out longer than him and see just how long he will go without eating before he submits to your will? I am referring to a hard dog-a stubborn dog, not a soft dog.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I like NILIF. I think it's a great training tool. I can't stress enough how it benefits the dog(s) more than me. It teaches me that I need to reward good behavior. I have to work hard and the dog(s) reap the reward. 

Do I always use it? No, I forget. My brain just doesn't function in a tunnel where my mind set is on my dogs all the time. If I'm walking back from the barn after working one of the horses and I call out "here", I know Hondo is going to come. He just does. He just always does. I might not even look for him (I can hear his tags jingle). I won't reward the behavior. I'm thinking equine and not canine. It's not fair to Hondo. 

So, the more I use NILIF, the more rewarding good behavior becomes second nature to me. When I call out "here" and I hear the jingle of his tags, I'll say "Good boy!" I still may not look at him. I may not give him a pat. But he responds to the tone of my voice. I've rewarded the behavior that I've asked for. 

NILIF is a training tool for me, not the dog(s).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> He does sit and politely waits for his food now but I trained him to obey the command by using tasty treats and rewarding him for good behavior instead of denying him resources for bad behavior.


I've never heard of denying resources for bad behavior as a part of NILIF. The one thing we have to *always* remember regardless of what tool or method we use is that the dog MUST be setup for success. If you ask the dog to perform something he can't reliably do and then withhold a basic resource like food...that's not NILIF. NILIF is not about negative punishment it's about setting rules and expectations...teaching the dog self control and house manners. Now if you train a dog to sit using treats and positive reinforcement, then you can incorporate that into NILIF and are setting the dog up for success because you're asking him to do something he actually understands. It's a win-win - the dogs get what they want and the handlers get what they want.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> My question is-you control ALL of his resources so he is made to feel that he is at your mercy or he will not survive-I don't really like this idea. Then what do you do with a stubborn dog that just won't sit? Do you give him his food anyways, or do you hold out longer than him and see just how long he will go without eating before he submits to your will? I am referring to a hard dog-a stubborn dog, not a soft dog.


I control all my dogs' resources by virtue of the fact that I have thumbs.  They cannot open the knob to the room with the dog supplies, push the button on the handle that lets them in/out of the house, release the latch on the van door, unlock the crate padlocks, unscrew the cap for the medication, turn on the tap water..... 

If my dog won't perform a command reliably I take several steps back, train it, proof it. Dogs like to eat and most of them like their handlers and want to please, but they can't please us if they don't really understand what we want. To me if a dog will not respond to a command given once at least 85% of the time (without their being toys or food or any sort of punishment or reinforcement in the picture), then the dog is not "trained" for that command yet.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I control all my dogs' resources by virtue of the fact that I have thumbs.  They cannot open the knob to the room with the dog supplies, push the button on the handle that lets them in/out of the house, release the latch on the van door, unlock the crate padlocks, unscrew the cap for the medication, turn on the tap water.....
> 
> If my dog won't perform a command reliably I take several steps back, train it, proof it. Dogs like to eat and most of them like their handlers and want to please, but they can't please us if they don't really understand what we want. To me if a dog will not respond to a command given once at least 85% of the time (without their being toys or food or any sort of punishment or reinforcement in the picture), then the dog is not "trained" for that command yet.


A stubborn, dominant dog will know the command full well yet may choose not to follow it if he doesn't feel like being told what to do at that moment. I am thinking that before this NILIF will work very well for a hard dog-some other training needs to take place first and I am not referring to teaching the dog a command because he darn well knows it. Apparently he doesn't know his rank-and either holding back food or Alpha training is necessary first. Have you dealt with an Alpha that was very dominant and stubborn? If so, how did you teach him to listen to you?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> why???


Makes them think. Sit and get a treat instead of just treat for barking and wanting one. It helps reinforce commands while making the dog earn something.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I voted "yes" because I think a lot of ways I manage dogs is basically NILIF though by now it is just second nature and I'm not making a point of doing it that way. Everyone has priorities though. For example I don't use NILIF to train my dogs not to counter surf or crowd the front door...I just don't leave stuff on the counter or block them from the front door (which I suppose could be NILIF.....). Most of the NILIF stuff I do intentionally has to do with their safety or just common sense. For example right now it's icey and slippery where they go out the door so I have them sit while I get the doors open and then file out rather than everyone charge out, slip, and get hurt.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Of course the dog needs to know what you want before you can correct. Otherwise it is not fair. 

From the link I posted:

_He's already learned that *he can make all of these decisions on his own*. He has a strong history of being in control of when he gets these resources. Enforce the new rules, but keep in mind that he's only doing what he's been taught to do and he's going to need some time to get the hang of it all_

You adjust NILIF according to the dogs ability. A new dog coming into my home, I will see where they fall and adjust, don't ask for more than they know. The more they learn, the more confidence they gain. If the confidence is too much, then you ask for more from them...it isn't that hard to do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't use terms like stubborn, alpha, rank, etc. Dogs are dogs. For me it's a matter of establishing a bond, a mutual trust and respect built mostly through play, meeting the dog's physical needs unconditionally (they may not get free-fed but they always get fed, that sort of thing, I never withhold a basic need), and just being together (going on walks, sitting on the couch, taking the dog to all kinds of places several times a week...). Then we go from there. If I want a dog to perform a behavior for safety or my own sanity or any number of reasons I train the dog that behavior.

I don't really view NILIF as training, it's more of a style of management.

If my dogs are out of line they get corrected either by me or another dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Here is a copy and paste from your link-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am reposting this question because it has yet to be answered and I really want to know what one would do in this situation. Somebody who has dealt with a dog who is very stubborn and dominant-tell me how you handled this if you attempted it with NILIF. Or PM me if you prefer not to discuss it on this thread.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't use terms like stubborn, alpha, rank, etc. Dogs are dogs. For me it's a matter of establishing a bond, a mutual trust and respect built mostly through play and just being together (going on walks, sitting on the couch, taking the dog to all kinds of places several times a week...). Then we go from there. If I want a dog to perform a behavior for safety or my own sanity or any number of reasons I train the dog that behavior.
> 
> I don't really view NILIF as training, it's more of a style of management.
> 
> If my dogs are out of line they get corrected either by me or another dog.


So perhaps you have never met a dog like mine. Most people have not.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> A stubborn, dominant dog will know the command full well yet may choose not to follow it if he doesn't feel like being told what to do at that moment. I am thinking that before this NILIF will work very well for a hard dog-some other training needs to take place first and I am not referring to teaching the dog a command because he darn well knows it. Apparently he doesn't know his rank-and either holding back food or Alpha training is necessary first. Have you dealt with an Alpha that was very dominant and stubborn? If so, how did you teach him to listen to you?


I wouldn't call a dog stubborn or dominate because he won't listen to commands. Just from my perception of your description and I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, but it sounds like you're comparing your dog to a grumpy old man instead thinking of him like a dog. 

It sounds like motivation is your issue and not that he's a stubborn alpha and that's why he's not listening. You need to find out what really motivates him and use that to engage him.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If my dog won't sit for a meal then I'd train the sit position separately, then proof it. Make sitting for their food a happy position. Like Lies said, NILIF isn't really training but life management. Train the dog, practice NILIF with daily routine/management.
I do have a stubborn dog, Onyx. But she'll platz for her food dish quickly!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> It sounds like motivation is your issue and not that he's a stubborn alpha and that's why he's not listening. You need to find out what really motivates him and use that to engage him.


I agree. No, I've never met a dog that was truly motivated by nothing, but I've worked with some pretty hard nuts to crack.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So perhaps you have never met a dog like mine. Most people have not.


He's your first GSD, correct?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Samba said:


> I have never heard of withholding food for bad behavior in regards to NILIF. My dogs never really do any bad behavior though. They simply do doggy things and I don't think they have a concept of bad.


You don't withhold it. You strip them off their normal meal and make them work for it kibble by kibble. That's what I did with one of my fosters who had issues and it worked wonders. 

It's Ultra NILIF but you don't withhold it... and it's really not that much of a new concept. Some people simply gave it a new name. Back then it was called "Training your dog"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess if I had a dog that would "sit" 100% of the time and then refuse to sit when I had a food dish in my hand, I'd correct the dog at that instant so he sat, then feed him, then later on take a few steps back proofing the sit. I won't withhold a basic need like food or water to make my point. Dogs like things black and white; the communication has to be quick. He's not going to stand there for 5 minutes and then suddenly realize if he sat 5 minutes ago he would have been done with his meal by now.

There's as many ways to interpret and implement NILIF as there are types of "corrections".


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I agree. No, I've never met a dog that was truly motivated by nothing, but I've worked with some pretty hard nuts to crack.


Oh-he is motivated all right. With a tasty treat, with playing frisbee or ball. But have you ever been attacked by a dog for simply pointing at him and saying no? Has your dog ever bitten you and you were dripping blood? Most people have no idea what it is like to deal with a dominant aggressive dog. He was Alpha trained successfully. He turned 3 today and it has been 2 years since he was trained and has never bitten me again or anybody else. He now sits when told, sits and waits and does not take off outside even if I leave the door wide open, gets complimented for his obedience but he was trained using a combination of Alpha training (with a professional trainer) and then I incorporated a reward training and he has come a long way-a very long way. I don't need to use NILIF with him but I am trying to learn about it for when I get my next dog-but am wondering what people do if they face the situation that I am describing-although hopefully my next dog won't behave that way….there can't be two of them out there????? 

My lab naturally obeys-we never had to teach him anything except what the commands were and he happily obeys them.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> He's your first GSD, correct?


No-I grew up with dogs and had a GSD as a teen. He is just the first dog who behaved this way that I have ever had.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Liesje said:


> I guess if I had a dog that would "sit" 100% of the time and then refuse to sit when I had a food dish in my hand, I'd correct the dog at that instant so he sat, then feed him, then later on take a few steps back proofing the sit. .


Exactly. I'm holding his food and tell him to sit. If he does't sit, I put the food on the cabinet while we spend five minutes reviewing "sit." Then I go back and ask him to sit again. If he sits, he eats. If not, we review "sit" some more. It's not like you withold food for days on end.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> No-I grew up with dogs and had a GSD as a teen.


OK cool thanks for the correction. From your previous posts I had thought you'd mentioned he was your first.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> OK cool thanks for the correction. From your previous posts I had thought you'd mentioned he was your first.


First in my own house-but I grew up with dogs and provided most of their care.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

NILIF should not apply to baby puppies. The pup/dog has to understand what you want from it before you can expect behaviors/positions.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, I've been attacked by a dog twice and one of those was by a dog almost my size that apparently had never been told "no" before that day.

My third oldest dog is by far my most dominant and he has very raw aggression but a very correct threshold. He's never so much as curled a lip at me. To be honest I have a very low tolerance for handler aggression or any unwarranted aggression towards any member of our household (dogs or humans). I commend people who do rescue, foster, adopt a lot of dogs, but this is why I usually get a puppy so I know what temperament I'm getting ahead of time. At this point in my life I don't have the space or the resources to put myself or my other dogs and family at risk. I have too many people visiting, people popping in (literally) unannounced, and like to travel with dogs in tow. With a new puppy, training begins day one and they learn very quickly what the rules of the house are so they can be happy and are free to be dogs without a lot of micromanagement from me.

I think I already answered your question twice but I'll answer it again...if my dog sits 100% of the time when I say "sit" but then refuses to sit when I'm holding his food I would correct him immediately, feed him the food, and then do some training sessions later on re-proofing the sit.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> NILIF does not apply to baby puppies. The pup/dog has to understand what you want from it before you can expect behaviors/positions.


I start it as soon as they know "sit." Want to go out and play? sit. Want to come out of your kennel? sit. Want me to pick you up? Sit. Want your food? Sit. Then as they learn more behaviors, I _always_ ask for a simple, well-known cue before I give them something they want. 

Of course with baby puppies you do a lot of luring their little nose with the food bowl or whatever it is they want.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Exactly. I'm holding his food and tell him to sit. If he does't sit, I put the food on the cabinet while we spend five minutes reviewing "sit." Then I go back and ask him to sit again. If he sits, he eats. If not, we review "sit" some more. It's not like you withold food for days on end.


I am relieved to hear this-because the book I read about NILIF said that once your dog knew what sit meant-at meal time you were to command him to sit once and if he didn't obey then do not offer the food again to the next meal-it said it would not take many meals before he was hungry enough to obey the first sit command. I thought that is what all you guys were doing with the NILIF and so I all along I have been thinking-their training method is very mean. I am so glad that from all the replies that isn't what is going on. The book must have been written by an extremist.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If you feed kibbles. You can always take the kibble, throw it, then have him come back and sit, reward him with the next kibble (throwing it) an so on and on. Then if he's doing great, put the food down as a jackpot. That's how I do it. 
You can do the same for down.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> because the book I read about NILIF said that once your dog knew what sit meant-at meal time you were to command him to sit once and if he didn't obey then do not offer the food again to the next meal-


That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Who wrote that book, Kim Jong Il?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Who wrote that book, Kim Jong Il?


I read it a couple years ago and got it at a library a couple cities away from mine-but when I get around to it I am going to go back there and try to find it and then I will let you know the name and author because I don't remember. I know me and my husband tried it but didn't get very far with it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I start it as soon as they know "sit." Want to go out and play? sit. Want to come out of your kennel? sit. Want me to pick you up? Sit. Want your food? Sit. Then as they learn more behaviors, I _always_ ask for a simple, well-known cue before I give them something they want.
> 
> Of course with baby puppies you do a lot of luring their little nose with the food bowl or whatever it is they want.


of course. I just wanted to clarify for some who read this think they should implement NILIF when they bring home a baby. The pup must understand first. Luring/shaping marking then begin....


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm a big fan of NILIF. I've used *portions* of it with my three dogs and with my son's dog when she was here.

Portions might be the key word.

Dogs must sit and wait for the ok before I will put the bowls down. That actually came about because it is beyond annoying to have a dog "rush" the water bowl and spill it. So therefore, you shall wait until it is down and you are given the "ok." If you "rush" it, it will come right back up. I'll repeat that if needed... but I'll continue to repeat until I get the behavior I want, rather than to just pull it and let them go without. This was a really easy thing to teach. I don't know, Germanshepherdlova, why your boy is stubborn with this. It came easy to mine. I don't know what I would've done otherwise. 

My dogs have rarely received any treats without *something.* Maybe just a "shake," but they have to do something for it.

As far as who goes out the door first and all of that, ehhh, that's more about what is convenient to me. How many dogs on/offleash am I trying to manage and all that. 

So I don't follow all the NILIF rules.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My dogs get their morning meal outside. And occasionally, if they are being nutty, I will have them wait or sit before I give them their dish of food. Bear was being particularly amped about getting her food one day, so I wanted her to sit before opening her kennel. She would not. It was not a matter of refusing to do what I wanted, but more an I'm so excited my brain isn't working right now. 

I stood there and waited it out. I refused to open the gate until her bottom was touching the ground. And it did.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> If you feed kibbles. You can always take the kibble, throw it, then have him come back and sit, reward him with the next kibble (throwing it) an so on and on. Then if he's doing great, put the food down as a jackpot. That's how I do it.
> You can do the same for down.


He is listens to me now, but he was Alpha trained.But thanks for giving me this idea-I may try some of this with my next puppy if he is normal.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You can use whatever incompatible behaviors you want to implement NILIF. "Sit" is common because it's incompatible with most things dogs do that are considered "bad" (door dashing, crowding, counter surfing, bouncing on guests...). It doesn't have to revolve around set meals. Nikon likes to have a "snack" with me at bed time. I'm on these antibiotics that sit better with food so I have a small snack and he always reminds me it's snack time by herding me into the kitchen and then he will point at what he wants. Do I let him jump up on the counter and start pulling food down? No, I say "what do you want?" and he usually points his nose at the bread basket so I say, "OK then, wait nice" and he scoots back and sits while I open the bag and get him a slice of bread. That's NILIF. After about two days of this, any time I am in the kitchen around bed time he automatically scoots out of the way and sits. He gets a slice of bread. It shouldn't be a struggle or a long process. The dog ultimately gets what he wants, and I can maneuver the kitchen without him jumping on counters and barking.

Same thing goes for feeding their big meal. I feed everyone in a row outside. Every day each dog gets the same dish as before in the same spot. Now when I open the door with the bowls, they come over in the order they are always served, stand in the same spot they always eat in, and there are no fights or dogs jumping on me and pushing me for food.

It's about establishing a routine and clear expectations. That goes for both the human and the dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I read it a couple years ago and got it at a library a couple cities away from mine-but when I get around to it I am going to go back there and try to find it and then I will let you know the name and author because I don't remember. I know me and my husband tried it but didn't get very far with it.


Probably because of the "don't feed" if he doesn't sit. 

Again, if you feed kibble, just use the kibbles itself to train your dog. It's the fastest way for them to learn. Don't just put the whole bowl down. Have them work for a handfull for kibble first and then put the food down. 

Sometimes they have to work for their entire bowl of kibbles. Some call it extreme but that way I can regulate the food that's going in and use the special stuff for the training itself. With a food driven dog, it's perfect.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> My dogs get their morning meal outside. And occasionally, if they are being nutty, I will have them wait or sit before I give them their dish of food. Bear was being particularly amped about getting her food one day, so I wanted her to sit before opening her kennel. She would not. It was not a matter of refusing to do what I wanted, but more an I'm so excited my brain isn't working right now.
> 
> I stood there and waited it out. I refused to open the gate until her bottom was touching the ground. And it did.


As far as my dogs training I can put their food or treat down and put them in sit and leave the room and come back and they won't move toward their food until I give them the command. But this training wasn't done through NILIF.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> Probably because of the "don't feed" if he doesn't sit.
> 
> Again, if you feed kibble, just use the kibbles itself to train your dog. It's the fastest way for them to learn. Don't just put the whole bowl down. Have them work for a handfull for kibble first and then put the food down.


Yeah this works really well because they're already hungry. I like to use this technique with the little baby puppies. Take the first handful or two and use it to lure them into a "sit" and "down". Then, once their brain is engaged and they're working with the idea that food comes from pleasing you and from working, go ahead and put the bowl down.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

For a while I was having them sit and stay while I sat the bowls down and then made them wait for a release word. But with my two I found that this led to them wolfing the food down incredibly quickly and I was worried about bloat so I stopped that. It it works for someone else's dogs it's a great technique to use.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I believe a lot of what Victoria Stillwell does is NILIF, not sure if she calls it that but it sure looks like it to me. Watch some of her shows if you want a better understanding of the concept, rather than just making a dog sit for an hour in order to get a meal.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> You can use whatever incompatible behaviors you want to implement NILIF. "Sit" is common because it's incompatible with most things dogs do that are considered "bad" (door dashing, crowding, counter surfing, bouncing on guests...). It doesn't have to revolve around set meals. Nikon likes to have a "snack" with me at bed time. I'm on these antibiotics that sit better with food so I have a small snack and he always reminds me it's snack time by herding me into the kitchen and then he will point at what he wants. Do I let him jump up on the counter and start pulling food down? No, I say "what do you want?" and he usually points his nose at the bread basket so I say, "OK then, wait nice" and he scoots back and sits while I open the bag and get him a slice of bread. That's NILIF. After about two days of this, any time I am in the kitchen around bed time he automatically scoots out of the way and sits. He gets a slice of bread. It shouldn't be a struggle or a long process. The dog ultimately gets what he wants, and I can maneuver the kitchen without him jumping on counters and barking.



Do peoples dogs really jump on counters? That would be very, very out of control behavior.

My dogs do that same thing point with their nose at what they want! I think it is adorable. My dog sits politely now and waits to as a matter of fact he won't even touch the snack or food without my permission. First he was Alpha trained (I have said this a few times now, I know) and then he was reward trained-but the results were excellent. That is why I questioned an extremely dominant and or aggressive dog possibly needing to be trained about his position in the pack first before you can get through to him with other training methods. Not all dogs just dogs with behavioral problems.

So am I doing some NILIF by making them wait until I give them permission to eat or snack? I guess I am without even knowing it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Do peoples dogs really jump on counters? That would be very, very out of control behavior.


LOL I think every foster dog I've ever had that was an outdoor only dog jumped up on the counter during their first day in the house. Hey, it smells like food and they don't see any reason not to! After the first couple I learned not to leave anything valuable on the counter when a foster dog was in the house.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> *Probably because of the "don't feed" if he doesn't sit.
> *
> Again, if you feed kibble, just use the kibbles itself to train your dog. It's the fastest way for them to learn. Don't just put the whole bowl down. Have them work for a handfull for kibble first and then put the food down.
> 
> Sometimes they have to work for their entire bowl of kibbles. Some call it extreme but that way I can regulate the food that's going in and use the special stuff for the training itself. With a food driven dog, it's perfect.


That is exactly why it failed!

Work for it by obeying commands? Besides sit-stay-what else would you have them do to earn their food?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So am I doing some NILIF by making them wait until I give them permission to eat or snack? I guess I am without even knowing it.


Yes


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Work for it by obeying commands? Besides sit-stay-what else would you have them do to earn their food?


Track, tricks, agility, obedience, rally, flyball, retrieves....any number of things. Besides protection work, what *can't* you do with their snacks? 

But, where I diverge from pure NILIF is that in our household, meals are meals. My dogs *always* get a meal at meal time. It might be a smaller one if I've been using food for other things throughout the day. I don't withhold basic needs, but I don't let the dogs decide who gets them when either. But even this is sort of a backdoor NILIF. My dogs know that they can trust me to always meet their basic needs regardless of their different temperaments or levels of training. They know I control the resources but that resource is always accessible through me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Work for it by obeying commands? Besides sit-stay-what else would you have them do to earn their food?


Anything they know how to do! Tricks like roll over, shake, or speak. You can put a handful of kibble in your pocket and work "heel" all around the house with it. Keep half the bowl, give the other half to your husband or family member, and work "come" back and forth between each other, giving him several kibbles each time he comes. "Puppy pushups"-- down/stand/down/stand/down/stand.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> LOL I think every foster dog I've ever had that was an outdoor only dog jumped up on the counter during their first day in the house. Hey, it smells like food and they don't see any reason not to! After the first couple I learned not to leave anything valuable on the counter when a foster dog was in the house.


That would be a sight to see. My lab was a rescue-and he never did that. Of course for every problem Brutus has given me my lab has been the opposite. He would never snarl, bite, snap or anything else at me or anyone else in our house. Very obedient. He loves to eat and worries about Brutus stealing his snacks. I give them a chicken liver chew stick every night for snack and tonight as he was chewing away on it my daughter who's newest thing is to be afraid of going upstairs alone if it's dark-well she called him to accompany her upstairs because I guess she feels he will "guard" her from anything, and that lovely little dog dropped his treat right there with Brutus laying right next to him and loyally trotted next to her. Of course I didn't let Brutus steal his treat while he was gone-but he is just so compliant to every order we give him-and he does it naturally. If he knows what you are telling him-he will do it. My GSD Pearl that I had as a teen was a lot like my lab come to think of it.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Track, tricks, agility, obedience, rally, flyball, retrieves....any number of things. Besides protection work, what *can't* you do with their snacks?
> 
> But, where I diverge from pure NILIF is that in our household, meals are meals. My dogs *always* get a meal at meal time. It might be a smaller one if I've been using food for other things throughout the day. I don't withhold basic needs, but I don't let the dogs decide who gets them when either. But even this is sort of a backdoor NILIF. My dogs know that they can trust me to always meet their basic needs regardless of their different temperaments or levels of training. They know I control the resources but that resource is always accessible through me.


Wait a minute-I was always told that dogs should not run around when they are eating or for an hour or two afterwards because of the risk of their intestines twisting. That is why I asked what they could do to work for their kibble.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Bloat is thought to be largely genetic. I've heard of dogs fatally bloating in the middle of the night on an empty stomach.

I can't imagine training dogs and NOT using rewards.

I guess as an example, last week I trained Nikon to run out to a traffic cone, do a down next to it (single command "cone" = run to the cone and down-stay), then on recall come back and do a right finish. Trained with food. He's still alive.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Bloat is thought to be largely genetic. I've heard of dogs fatally bloating in the middle of the night on an empty stomach.
> 
> I can't imagine training dogs and NOT using rewards.
> 
> I guess as an example, last week I trained Nikon to run out to a traffic cone, do a down next to it (single command "cone" = run to the cone and down-stay), then on recall come back and do a right finish. Trained with food. He's still alive.


I am referring to feeding a whole meal that way-while the dog is running around not just a few treats.

You know, this dog training-right and wrong, health concerns, bloats, what type of kibble to feed your dog-or no, not kibble raw, and so on are starting to stress me out. It seems that there is something wrong with everything!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well if I go to Schutzhund training and intend to use food on my track and food for obedience, those two phases involve about 4 hours of training. A few cups of food spread out over 4 hours is not going to cause bloat.

Also most people who train with the dog's meals don't do it all at once. You measure out the amount of kibble the dog will get for the whole day and just grab a handful here and there throughout the day. It's probably less likely to cause bloat than feeding a dog 2 larger meals.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

chelle said:


> I'm a big fan of NILIF. I've used *portions* of it with my three dogs and with my son's dog when she was here.
> 
> Portions might be the key word.
> 
> ...


He WAS stubborn with it until he realized that he didn't rule the roost.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Did you get him as a puppy?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Well if I go to Schutzhund training and intend to use food on my track and food for obedience, those two phases involve about 4 hours of training. A few cups of food spread out over 4 hours is not going to cause bloat.
> 
> Also most people who train with the dog's meals don't do it all at once. You measure out the amount of kibble the dog will get for the whole day and just grab a handful here and there throughout the day. It's probably less likely to cause bloat than feeding a dog 2 larger meals.


I have heard people speaking about grabbing the portion of food and having the dog earn every piece of kibble. I would think this would be done consecutively and not take more than an hour or so. This would mean that the dogs tummy is filling as he is running around. I wouldn't do that-I always make my dogs stay calm for 2 hours after they eat. A small treat here or there-I don't worry about but the way the feeding of kibble piece by piece and not over a 4 hour period like you are describing but in a shorter period of time-I wouldn't try that.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Did you get him as a puppy?


The GSD or the Lab? GSD was a little puppy, 7 weeks old when we brought him home.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know, personal preference I guess? Some of my dogs only eat one meal per day, then they chase each other around the yard for a while. I've never had any issues with it and don't stress over it. I don't see a need to withhold meals as punishment or to increase drive (another reason why it's done....like not feeding a dog for over 12 hours and then putting raw steak on his track or something like that). I don't want to have to rely on my dog being starving just to get him to behave or work, they should just *want* to do it. They enjoy training and working, will drop their toys in my lap and then start doing tricks on their own when I stand up.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I fed Rocket all his kibble by hand the first 6 weeks. I measured out the whole amount and we all (kids included) worked puppy stuff with him. I also require a sit and eye contact before entering/exiting any door, gate, store or the car. Just yesterday he dive-bombed me out of the car at a friend's house who has a chocolate lab he likes. Even though that was his first time forgetting and he was wriggling out of control with excitement, I finally got him picked up and put back in the car. I made him wait, sit and give me eye contact before I released him. Oof is all I can say to lifting a squirming 70+ lb puppy into a suburban.

He also has to do simple things for treats, walking forward somewhere exciting etc.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am referring to feeding a whole meal that way-while the dog is running around not just a few treats.
> 
> You know, this dog training-right and wrong, health concerns, bloats, what type of kibble to feed your dog-or no, not kibble raw, and so on are starting to stress me out. It seems that there is something wrong with everything!!!


I think in 30 years there was a single bloat. And there is a lot of food used during training. Like Liesje said you've got the food tracks and then food for obedience which is why most people use their dogs meals instead or use quality treats measured to make a meal to not overfeed them. 

So far I have not had any issued with my dogs. Most of the time it's the poorly bred dogs that have more issues in that direction. 

Usually I work Nala on half a cup of food. Then I take a break and either give her the rest as jack pot or use the rest for later on. It depends on how good it was. If it was really good she gets the jackpot. 

With the crate games for example you need lots of food. Because all you do is feed and feed and feed some more out of your own hand. I fed them more during the beginning of the crate games than what they would get as a meal but it's very important. They don't run. They just have to stay in that crate and for that you feed a lot of food. 

I had to take breaks with Indra because she got stuffed fast and I had to skip the morning meal and work her in the afternoon so she was really hungry.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I think in 30 years there was a single bloat. And there is a lot of food used during training. Like Liesje said you've got the food tracks and then food for obedience which is why most people use their dogs meals instead or use quality treats measured to make a meal to not overfeed them.
> 
> So far I have not had any issued with my dogs. Most of the time it's the poorly bred dogs that have more issues in that direction.
> 
> ...


What is the crate game?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> What is the crate game?


It's from Susan Garrett. 
Here is a video that explains it fairly well. 





Instead of the sit, we do the down in the crate. 

It's all about self control, impulse control and motivation. It has several effects on the dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> As far as my dogs training I can put their food or treat down and put them in sit and leave the room and come back and they won't move toward their food until I give them the command. But this training wasn't done through NILIF.


:thinking: Um, that IS NILIF. You're making them sit and wait to be released to eat. Food is a resource, they have to do what you want in order to get it. 

I'm still not sure you get what NILIF is.....


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Thanks for the link Mrs.K, that was very interesting to watch.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Um, that IS NILIF. You're making them sit and wait to be released to eat. Food is a resource, they have to do what you want in order to get it.
> 
> I'm still not sure you get what NILIF is.....


What I meant when I said that the training wasn't done through NILIF is that initially I got no where with Brutus with that. So Alpha training was used before I could get him to obey when given a command. The after he was in the right state of mind-I used treats to teach him to hold sits and such. I guess that is where the NILIF came in. So I guess it was a combination in his case. I do see that the way people here have explained NILIF that I do use it. But the book that I read that discussed withholding food and such if the first command isn't obeyed was what I initially thought people were doing but I have learned that there are different levels of NILIF-and that they can cross into abusive but most people do not cross that line. Just like Alpha training I guess any training method can be abused by a trainer or used in a proper and non abusive manner.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I actually DO start NILIF right away with a new puppy - as soon as they will sit, even without a command, (I train a lot of default behaviors), they have to sit. But what's great about NILIF is that it is totally adaptable to the age and ability of the dog. At first I release a puppy to eat the second the bowl touches the floor. If they charge the bowl as I'm lowering it, I stand back up and wait for the sit again. Guess what? They ALWAYS SIT AGAIN! I repeat this process as many times as necessary, which is rarely more than 5 or 6 times in a row. We're talking about delaying a meal by minutes at most, or maybe even just seconds. Dominant has nothing to do with it. Stubborn has nothing to do with it. A smart hungry dog who wants to eat will figure out very quickly what it takes to get that food. VERY quickly. 

As the dog matures and learns more skills and develops impulse control, I up the ante and increase the challenge. I wait until I take my hands off the bowl before releasing, and then I have to stand all the way up first before releasing. Then I add eye contact - the dog can't stare at the bowl, they have to look at me before I release them. Then I move the bowl closer to the dog, and further from me. Eventually I can have a dog in a down with the bowl right under their nose with me 5 or 6 feet away, but I work up to that gradually. 

Now, I stand there with the food bowls, wait for the dogs to sit (sometimes I ask for a down instead), and set the bowls down. I wait for eye contact, and then release them to eat. This process takes seconds, and it's all automatic. I give no commands - these are the house rules and the dogs are responsible for knowing and complying with them without having to be told over and over again. I never ask the dog to do more than they are capable of doing. 

Proof: Halo at 14 weeks old, waiting for my husband to release her to eat (excuse the ugly garage floor)










You can see that the bowl is much closer to him than it is to her, making it easy for him to pick it up if she self-releases before the okay. I start there and then nudge it closer and closer to the dog.


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *A stubborn, dominant dog* will know the command full well yet may choose not to follow it if he doesn't feel like being told what to do at that moment. I am thinking that before this NILIF will work very well for a hard dog-some other training needs to take place first and I am not referring to teaching the dog a command because he darn well knows it. Apparently he doesn't know his rank-and either holding back food or Alpha training is necessary first. Have you dealt with an Alpha that was very dominant and stubborn? If so, how did you teach him to listen to you?


To move forward in training, you need to stop projecting attitudes on the dog and look at behavior. 

When you have already decided that you know why a dog is doing or not doing something, you stop seeing what the dog IS ACTUALLY doing. 

Dogs rarely do something "just cuz" or "just to be stubborn." Dogs do what works, they seek reinforcement and avoid punishment. I have seen dogs trained with excessive amounts of force (exacerbated by poor timing and mechanical skills) refuse to follow commands, look at their owner, and move slowly. To me, this is not stubbornness, it is a dog that is confused and shut down. There is no reinforcement forthcoming, so why try? 

Some dogs do seem to find getting a rise out of their owner reinforcing, so control your emotions and remove that path of reinforcement.



Emoore said:


> That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Who wrote that book, Kim Jong Il?


I LOL'd.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> But the book that I read that discussed withholding food and such if the first command isn't obeyed was what I initially thought people were doing but I have learned that there are different levels of NILIF-and that they can cross into abusive but most people do not cross that line.


I can't imagine how it could possibly be abusive unless the dog is as dumb as a rock or the person implementing it has no idea what they're doing. NILIF does not involve making a dog skip a meal if they don't sit on the first command. If someone is doing that, they're not doing NILIF. 

And as with ANY type of training, you set the dog up for success, so you wouldn't ask a dog to solve a complex math problem if they can barely sit on cue. You ask for a behavior that they are capable of doing. If anything, NILIF is empowering for the dog - they learn how to "make" good things happen. When we're at the park and my dogs want us to throw the ball for them they know how to ask for it. There's no confusion, they know what we expect of them because we've taught them the rules. 

BTW, what exactly IS Alpha training?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> To move forward in training, you need to stop projecting attitudes on the dog and look at behavior.
> 
> When you have already decided that you know why a dog is doing or not doing something, you stop seeing what the dog IS ACTUALLY doing.
> 
> ...


There are many posts on this thread so you may have missed it but I don't need any help training my dog anymore. He obeys his commands now and is often praised when I take him out with me in public for his good manners. His behavior radically changed 2 years ago after the Alpha Roll.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I LOVE that pic of Halo!!! Gawd she's so **** cute in it. <3


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I can't imagine how it could possibly be abusive unless the dog is as dumb as a rock or the person implementing it has no idea what they're doing. NILIF does not involve making a dog skip a meal if they don't sit on the first command. If someone is doing that, they're not doing NILIF.
> 
> And as with ANY type of training, you set the dog up for success, so you wouldn't ask a dog to solve a complex math problem if they can barely sit on cue. You ask for a behavior that they are capable of doing. If anything, NILIF is empowering for the dog - they learn how to "make" good things happen. When we're at the park and my dogs want us to throw the ball for them they know how to ask for it. There's no confusion, they know what we expect of them because we've taught them the rules.
> 
> BTW, what exactly IS Alpha training?


Link that explains Alpha training. 
Alpha Dog Training - PositiveDogTraining.org

I am going to repost a copy and paste about when NILIF gets out of control from the link that I posted in my OP that will explain how NILIF can be abused>

"It’s a lot of work. More work than most people have the time or inclination for, because *if you are going to limit your dog from the joys of life without your exclusive involvement you better **** well make sure that you’re spending a lot of time with your dog*, getting him out and making sure his physical and mental needs are being met on a daily basis. *It’s very easy for a dog to become neglected in this type of situation if the handler is lazy*, not careful, *or becomes desensitized to a dog living in a box.* I*n its worst form dogs are put away like sports equipment when not being “used”*.
While there are some circumstances where NILIF can be employed skillfully and may be an *occasional wise tool of choice (never say never), I also believe that it can be abused or become the hallmark of lazy training.* Not lazy in the sense that it’s easy, I’ve already said that it’s a lot of work to properly care for and train a dog under these conditions time wise, but lazy in a sense of creativity and relationship with a dog. *It’s relatively easy to get a dog to do your biding or find you the most interesting thing in the world when he’s got absolutely nothing else going on in his life, no free will and no options."*


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> QUOTE=Germanshepherdlova;2365198]Link that explains Alpha training.
> Alpha Dog Training - PositiveDogTraining.org


That website is full of crap.



> The pack is led by the alpha. The best of everything is reserved for the alpha, and the alpha gets everything first.


False. You know who gets the best of everything? Puppies. Because that is what packs are _for_: raising puppies.



> If you treat your dog as an equal, if you allow him special privileges, or if you consistently allow him to disobey commands, he may begin to consider himself the alpha dog--only an alpha would normally receive these privileges.


This doesn't even make sense. It smacks of anthropomorphic thinking.



> And be sure you eat before he does. If it's not your normal mealtime, eat a small snack and make sure he sees you. Don't feed your dog table scraps during your own meal.


The first part of this is bogus and the second is just good sense. If you feed the dog from the table, he soon expects to be fed from the table! You just taught him a really good way to get really tasty food, don't be surprised or blame the dog when it becomes really freaking annoying.



> Don't allow your dog to go through a doorway ahead of you. Good alpha dog training demands that you (and everyone else in your family) go through the doorway first. Then he can pass through.


If we're basing this on the behavior of wolves in a pack, show me a doorway in Yellowstone Park.



> Your dog should not be allowed to sleep in your bed. Alpha dog training teaches the dog that the best sleeping place in the house is reserved for humans.


This is sensible.



> If your dog is in your path, make him move. Don't step over or around him even if you can. In the pack, *the alpha makes the subordinate dogs* get out of the way. Your alpha dog training has to mirror this behavior.


This is really getting to the crux of the issue. The alpha does not MAKE the subordinate dogs get out of the way. The subordinate dogs OFFER the behavior. This is what I was getting at in the other thread. The reason alpha rolls are called _alpha_ rolls is because for a long time it was thought that the alpha made the other dog roll over.

This isn't so. It is more aptly termed an _omega_ roll. It is something the subordinate dog OFFERS to the higher ranking dog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Erm, requiring my pup to wait for a release before going through a door is simply my way of keeping him safe. First thing in the morning, when it's 12 degrees out, and I'm letting him out to go potty, he's the first one through the door after release-- because he's the only one through it. 

Come to think of it, often after release he's the first one through it. I must be letting him get control.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> That website is full of crap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is Alpha training-my aggressive dog is now obedient and that was the main method of training that I used after the Alpha roll of course.You admittedly have zero knowledge in how to deal with a dominant aggressive dog anyways. 

And what does the Alpha dog do if another dog wants to challenge him? He does get challenged every now and then you know-so tell me, what does he do???


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wheelhaus said:


> The alpha does not MAKE the subordinate dogs get out of the way. The subordinate dogs OFFER the behavior. This is what I was getting at in the other thread. The reason alpha rolls are called _alpha_ rolls is because for a long time it was thought that the alpha made the other dog roll over.
> 
> This isn't so. It is more aptly termed an _omega_ roll. It is something the subordinate dog OFFERS to the higher ranking dog.


Yes! I'm going to re-post most of a reply I made a couple of years ago in the sticky thread about becoming a better pack leader because I think it's relevant to this discussion:



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I just read a great article by Pat Miller in the Whole Dog Journal called "Biscuits, Not Rolls". It's about using alpha rolls and other forms of physical dominance with your dog and why it's not a good idea. I can't paste it here without violating copyright laws, but there are a couple of things I'd like to paraphrase and add to this thread.
> 
> She writes that Ethology studies from the 70's and 80's suggest that *canine social structure holds together because appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher ranking members demand subservience*. Successful leaders calmly control the good stuff, the basis for modern positive training as an appropriate and effective method for creating a harmonious mixed species social group.
> 
> ...


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## Wheelhaus (Aug 19, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> And what does the Alpha dog do if another dog wants to challenge him? He does get challenged every now and then you know-so tell me, what does he do???


This happens so much less than you think. It is not the normal order of things at all. Dogs (and wolves) are social species that are also well armed predators. Most of their communication is about AVOIDING fights. Fighting is a waste of resources - time, energy, and health.

In wolf packs, younger wolves leave the pack at sexual maturity. It's an inbreeding avoidance behavior (because packs are family units - puppy raising factories). They do not kill the alpha wolf, because being the head of the pack means you're mating with your mother, which is the opposite of the point.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> This happens so much less than you think. It is not the normal order of things at all. Dogs (and wolves) are social species that are also well armed predators. Most of their communication is about AVOIDING fights. Fighting is a waste of resources - time, energy, and health.
> 
> In wolf packs, younger wolves leave the pack at sexual maturity. It's an inbreeding avoidance behavior (because packs are family units - puppy raising factories). They do not kill the alpha wolf, because being the head of the pack means you're mating with your mother, which is the opposite of the point.


I have watched enough nature programs to know what happens when the Alpha is challenged. Do you know what happens? Because you are avoiding directly answering the question.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Wheelhaus said:


> This happens so much less than you think. It is not the normal order of things at all. Dogs (and wolves) are social species that are also well armed predators. Most of their communication is about AVOIDING fights. Fighting is a waste of resources - time, energy, and health.
> 
> In wolf packs, younger wolves leave the pack at sexual maturity. It's an inbreeding avoidance behavior (because packs are family units - puppy raising factories). They do not kill the alpha wolf, because being the head of the pack means you're mating with your mother, which is the opposite of the point.


This topic is more suited to the Stop hating on Cesar Milan thread-so I posted a link for you in response to wolf behavior-that was written by a person who actually studied wolf behavior.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So perhaps you have never met a dog like mine. Most people have not.


I'm pretty sure, we have


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

The whole alpha thing is outdated IMO and the way we translated it to dogs is also inaccurate and causes more harm than good.

First of all, here's a well known researcher talking about "alpha male" versus the breeding pair idea, which also corroborates Wheelhaus' view that the pack is about raising puppies:






Second, dogs are not wolves. This has been discussed to no end here so I will not repeat myself now.

Third, all these behaviors (making the dog move, rolling him on his back) - even in wolves, most of this behavior is offered as a deference behavior to the higher pack member. A wolf doesn't just roll another one on his back and growl at him to show he can and he doesn't push the subordinate out of the way. The subordinate dogs choose to offer that behavior. Anything other than that is simply bullying. Again just my opinion...

Getting to the original point of the thread. NILIF is about teaching the dog that obedience pays off. Dogs are simple creatures they simply do what works  and they learn via trial and error (since they lack the mental capacity to think and plan). Via trial and error we teach them that obedient deferent behaviors pay off and result in all these great things (treats, going outside, play time, bonding time). 

It's just a tool and can be abused. I can see many ways for it to be abused (denying food rather than setting the dog up so he succeeds, not allowing any bonding with the owner unless he "works for it", never allowing them to be dogs, etc etc etc). 

In the end it's about teaching the dog to work with you rather than against you. Most dogs aren't born stubborn, they're just raised to be this way through years of conflict with the owner and using their opposition reflex when the owner decides to push them out of the way, pull them around on the leash, etc


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I won't say this "alpha" thing didn't work but I don't get how it came to that.... I can see pulling an adult dog from a shelter that has never had any training, boundaries, has always had to fight for it's meals and you're going to have some pretty deep baggage to deal with..... but my main problem with the type of training described is not the training itself but that the dog somehow got THAT bad in the first place. With a puppy we have every opportunity to imprint whatever structure we want. I guess I can't fathom letting my dog get away with ruling the roost and then pushing him around until he's taken down several notches. To me this is not "training" but going back and fixing big mistakes that were made by not addressing aspects of the dog's behavior as he was developing. 

This is the same criticism I have of almost everyone on the CM show, not of CM himself, but the owners that allow their dogs to get away with that crap and then want someone else to come in and offer a quick fix. 

I love pushy, aloof, dominant, hard, aggressive dogs, those are the ones I seek out when getting a new dog, but to me the best thing about a GSD is their ability to form the relationship and connection with the owner and that trumps everything. My hardest dog (and I will use "hard" as in his resilience when it comes to pressure and desire to physically fight, and it's not just something I say he has b/c I think he's stubborn but something that has been evaluated on the field multiple times) is actually my easiest to train and my most closely bonded.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Having just watched the video on wolves by the gentlemen who coined the phrase i thought about a Wolf center that on its website showed videos and a log of what was happening. It was however ahuman made pack ,not a wild occuring pack and there was constant juggling for power and alot of scuffles.How ever its not a naturally occuring pack. So my question is are we the alpha or parent of the dog /human pack naturally occuring or not? I watched wolf videos for years and two years ago found out that the pack is Dad,Mom and siblings.It also means that just like families there are the different roles each member plays but once agin are human /dog packs naturally occuring or are they man made?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I read somewhere a great line on the captive wolf studies that a lot of these alpha theories are based upon. It went something like "Studying hierarchical relationships in captive wolf populations is akin to studying familial dynamics in a refugee camp."


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't buy into the whole wolf thing because for one, there are vastly different schools of thought and both seem to think their concept of canine behavior is sufficiently supported by scientific evidence. Two, I don't own wolves I own German Shepherd dogs (and a mix). The GSD is one of the "youngest" breeds of dog, based on other breeds/types of domestic working dogs, not wolves or other wild dogs. Three, I personally do not believe that dog-dog relationships are the same as dog-human so to me, studying how two wild animals interact has little practical application for interaction between a domestically bred animal and a human. I learned more about clicker training my dogs by clicker training a housecat than from observing wolves.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't buy into the whole wolf thing because for one, there are vastly different schools of thought and both seem to think their concept of canine behavior is sufficiently supported by scientific evidence. Two, I don't own wolves I own German Shepherd dogs (and a mix). The GSD is one of the "youngest" breeds of dog, based on other breeds/types of domestic working dogs, not wolves or other wild dogs. Three, I personally do not believe that dog-dog relationships are the same as dog-human so to me, studying how two wild animals interact has little practical application for interaction between a domestically bred animal and a human. I learned more about clicker training my dogs by clicker training a housecat than from observing wolves.


This pretty much explains exactly how I feel about it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I would suggest that one get a wolf and then apply the methods advocated for use on dogs based on supposed wild animal behavior. Please video.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Samba said:


> I would suggest that one get a wolf and then apply the methods advocated for use on dogs based on supposed wild animal behavior. Please video.


Which one Positive,Cesar or NILF? LOL Anybody ever see the Wolfman series on Animal Planet ? They kind of trained him. S


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Which one Positive,Cesar or NILF? LOL Anybody ever see the Wolfman series on Animal Planet ? They kind of trained him. S


Guess you've got to get three wolves to find out.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I think people just don't like certain words and what they mean to them. Alpha, dominant, pack leader. Some like these terms and others dislike them for one reaso or another.
If you take the topic off dogs and instead put it on horses in a pasture or a group, there is a definite pecking order. Call it whatever you want but it's there. You introduce a new horse and for awhile things get stirred up until the new one finds it's place.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree, there IS a hierarchy, both among dogs and people and the dogs. My issue is that I don't think it should take physical confrontation with your own dog in order to establish this. The purpose of NILIF *is* to address this hierarchy and establish that the humans are in control and in their household the dog is expected to behave a certain way. It should be something that is setup pretty quickly with the dog when it arrives as a puppy. To me the concept of "alpha training" just represents some sort of fix to bandaid the training and management that was not properly done in the first place. Just because a dog bites its owner does not necessarily make it any more hard or dominant than any other dog, and just because a dog truly is a dominant, hard dog does not at all mean it's going to snap on it's owner or refuse simple commands. If the dog had had NILIF when it was younger it never would have escalated to alpha rolling.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am going to repost a copy and paste about when NILIF gets out of control from the link that I posted in my OP that will explain how NILIF can be abused>
> 
> "It’s a lot of work. More work than most people have the time or inclination for, because *if you are going to limit your dog from the joys of life without your exclusive involvement you better **** well make sure that you’re spending a lot of time with your dog*, getting him out and making sure his physical and mental needs are being met on a daily basis. *It’s very easy for a dog to become neglected in this type of situation if the handler is lazy*, not careful, *or becomes desensitized to a dog living in a box.* I*n its worst form dogs are put away like sports equipment when not being “used”*.
> While there are some circumstances where NILIF can be employed skillfully and may be an *occasional wise tool of choice (never say never), I also believe that it can be abused or become the hallmark of lazy training.* Not lazy in the sense that it’s easy, I’ve already said that it’s a lot of work to properly care for and train a dog under these conditions time wise, but lazy in a sense of creativity and relationship with a dog. *It’s relatively easy to get a dog to do your biding or find you the most interesting thing in the world when he’s got absolutely nothing else going on in his life, no free will and no options."*


I love the Dogstar Daily site, and I'm familiar with Kelly Dunbar, she's Ian Dunbar's wife. I think both of them are great, but what she's describing above is TO ME, not NILIF. I've never practiced it that way and I've never heard anyone else do that and claim that it's NILIF either. 

_This_ is NILIF:

Nothing in Life is Free



> Now that your dog is no longer calling the shots you will have to make an extra effort to provide him with attention and play time. Call him to you, have him "sit" and then lavish him with as much attention as you want. Have him go get his favorite toy and play as long as you both have the energy. The difference is that now you will be the one initiating the attention and beginning the play time. He's going to depend on you now, a lot more than before, to see that he gets what he needs. What he needs most is quality time with you. This would be a good time to enroll in a group obedience class. If his basic obedience is top notch, see about joining an agility class or fly ball team.
> 
> NILIF DOES *NOT* MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO RESTRICT THE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION YOU GIVE TO YOUR DOG. The NILIF concept speaks to who initiates the attention (you!), not the amount of attention. Go ahead and call your dog to you 100 times a day for hugs and kisses!! You can demand his attention, he can no longer demand yours!


As you can see, NILIF specifically states that you do not put the dog away in a box and forget about it, you don't have to restrict attention at all, you just initiate it rather than letting your dog pester you for it. There is absolutely nothing remotely abusive about NILIF if what you're doing actually* IS* NILIF.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> I agree, there IS a hierarchy, both among dogs and people and the dogs. My issue is that I don't think it should take physical confrontation with your own dog in order to establish this. The purpose of NILIF *is* to address this hierarchy and establish that the humans are in control and in their household the dog is expected to behave a certain way. It should be something that is setup pretty quickly with the dog when it arrives as a puppy. To me the concept of "alpha training" just represents some sort of fix to bandaid the training and management that was not properly done in the first place. Just because a dog bites its owner does not necessarily make it any more hard or dominant than any other dog, and just because a dog truly is a dominant, hard dog does not at all mean it's going to snap on it's owner or refuse simple commands. If the dog had had NILIF when it was younger it never would have escalated to alpha rolling.


^^^^^^^ :thumbup:


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

in my experience, dogs described as stubborn were actually confused - meaning there were unrealistic expectations by a human who thinks the dog understands the rules/desired behavior when they really don't. And yes, some dogs are easier to train, some training methods work better for some dogs and/or some trainers, and then again, some trainers are better communicators. Lots of factors that play into "stubborn".


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I agree, there IS a hierarchy, both among dogs and people and the dogs. My issue is that I don't think it should take physical confrontation with your own dog in order to establish this. The purpose of NILIF *is* to address this hierarchy and establish that the humans are in control and in their household the dog is expected to behave a certain way. It should be something that is setup pretty quickly with the dog when it arrives as a puppy. To me the concept of "alpha training" just represents some sort of fix to bandaid the training and management that was not properly done in the first place. Just because a dog bites its owner does not necessarily make it any more hard or dominant than any other dog, and just because a dog truly is a dominant, hard dog does not at all mean it's going to snap on it's owner or refuse simple commands. If the dog had had NILIF when it was younger it never would have escalated to alpha rolling.


I agree and it doesn't have to be NILIF, there are lots ofgood trainining methods. The problem is many people don't train or find a training that works and you wind up with these out of control dogs.

As you said, look at the owners on the dog Whisperer show and there is the problem.

My personal opinion is that some kids and dogs are way to spoiled these days and that is a lot of the problem.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

JanaeUlva said:


> in my experience, dogs described as stubborn were actually confused - meaning there were unrealistic expectations by a human who thinks the dog understands the rules/desired behavior when they really don't.


That has been my experience as well. I've trained a few of my relatives' dogs to do things that they insist their dogs "refuse" to do in a few 5 minute sessions. You have to adjust the methods and tools for the individual dog but the communication has to be there in the first place for anything to stick.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I don't doubt the "alpha dog training" worked, although it probably didn't work for the reason you feel it did (showed your dog who was alpha). Just like NILF doesn't work by showing your dog who is alpha. It worked through teaching consistent behaviors, that were reinforced on a daily basis. Dogs do what worked, you changed what worked and your dogs behavior changed. 

The whole alpha thing is a very outdated way of thinking about dog behavior, based on a very outdated way of thinking about wolf behavior.



Germanshepherdlova said:


> Do peoples dogs really jump on counters? That would be very, very out of control behavior..


 One of mine jumps all four feet onto the kitchen table sometimes...and I think it's very funny. He doesn't do it to steal food, usually he does it offering the "jump onto something" behavior for a reward. Or he does it because...well why not? It's fun to be up so high! He has walked on the coffee table too, just like it was the floor. Cracks me up. It doesn't mean one thing or another in terms of "dominance" or whatever. Just that he has never been discouraged from getting up onto things and is a very confident, curious dog. He's quite well trained and very responsive 



Germanshepherdlova said:


> I am reposting this question because it has yet to be answered and I really want to know what one would do in this situation. Somebody who has dealt with a dog who is very stubborn and dominant-tell me how you handled this if you attempted it with NILIF. Or PM me if you prefer not to discuss it on this thread.


 Well I don't tend to use terms like "dominant" and "stubborn". Often, the reason for dogs being labeled as such is not accurate and such labels tend to encourage negative feelings towards the dog. 

That said, if I had a dog who I wanted to sit for his food and he wouldn't I would first consider if he understands sit in all contexts. If he does not, I would help him to sit by luring then give him his food. If I was 100% sure the dog knew to sit and wasn't, I'd consider if there was a physical reason. If not, I'd put the food away and try again in a few minutes. Chances are pretty good that of the dog wants his dinner, knows how to and is able to perform a simple cue to get it, he will. 



Liesje said:


> I won't say this "alpha" thing didn't work but I don't get how it came to that.... I can see pulling an adult dog from a shelter that has never had any training, boundaries, has always had to fight for it's meals and you're going to have some pretty deep baggage to deal with..... but my main problem with the type of training described is not the training itself but that the dog somehow got THAT bad in the first place. With a puppy we have every opportunity to imprint whatever structure we want. I guess I can't fathom letting my dog get away with ruling the roost and then pushing him around until he's taken down several notches. To me this is not "training" but going back and fixing big mistakes that were made by not addressing aspects of the dog's behavior as he was developing.


 I totally agree with this. I personally couldn't imagine having a dog from such a young puppy and allowing things to get to the point where the dog is attacking me. But people do it all the time. One of my puppies went to a home where he apparently started resource guarding at 10 or so weeks old. They never mentioned it until he was about 7 or 8 months old and it was a big problem. If it had been addressed when it first occurred, it would have been a much simpler fix than addressing it in a mostly grown dog with big teeth and a strong reason to believe that he can and should fight off others for his stuff. The problem had grown from a fairly common puppy issue into a great, big dangerous situation because the owners had allowed it to. Not because the dog was "dominant" or "stubborn" or because he "needed to be shown who was alpha" but because his owners had raised him to believe such behavior was acceptable.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know we have an interesting re- education situation when people come to class with described "alpha" and "dominant" dogs. One recently diagnosed thusly and regularly "cesared" by the owner was actually a submissive, low confidence dog. 

There are sometimes dogs who present aggression problems. Recently a large flock guardian breed with a 90 lb owner. Physicality not an option and the lady was not a strong personality. This situation requires other approaches.

I have seen people who have very poor skills at leadership better the relationship with some training and consistency. It is much easier to apply such techniques than try to have someone become something they have no desire to do. I do believe in transformational work in people's lives, but that is not always their agenda, and easily applied techniques of training and management can get things a long way to the good.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I guess that I kind of practice NILIF by having my puppy waiting for his food, toys and going out of doors. I do it coz it can help him being more used to focus on me and listen, and it also helps to build some manners (waiting calmly for the treats and not jumping on me and stealing them!). But I don't always do it, sometimes I also give treats to him freely. I find sharing food with him (a piece of bread I'm eating) a way to bond with him (and rewarding whenever he is calm and respecting the boundaries).


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