# Anti Venom Vaccination



## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I've got a vet appointment with Bear this friday. We have to update his vaccinations, Rabies, Bordatella (not doing) and another one, I'll have to see which one. He's going to recommend doing Lepto (I really don't want to do that one either) but I want to inquire about an anti venom vaccination for Bear.

I live in an area where rattlesnakes are very populated. I see them all the time, it's not so much the bigger rattlers that I am worried about it's the smaller ones, whose bite is supposedly worse that the adults because they can't control their venom.
Has anyone had experience with this vaccination? It is supposed to lessen the severity of the bite if bitten. Should I do this?


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Oh, and I'm not sure what the vaccination is called. It's just a vaccination for snake bites.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Does your vet carry the vaccine? One of our vets (only one) has an ad in the front room advertising it.
We've not done it because we don't go out and about so much hiking and what-not, where there's rattlers known to hang out.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm not sure what it does. We had rattlers when I was in Las Vegas but I didn't go hiking enough with my dogs to bother with a vaccination.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Luckily I dont live anywhere near poisonous snakes!


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Does your vet carry the vaccine? One of our vets (only one) has an ad in the front room advertising it.
> We've not done it because we don't go out and about so much hiking and what-not, where there's rattlers known to hang out.


All of the vets in our area carry the vaccine but I don't know anything about it or who makes it. I'm going to ask the vet when I talk to him on Friday, but was wondering if anyone here has any experience with it.
I am not big on a lot of vaccines but since there are a lot of rattlesnakes in my area and I almost always hear of one or two dogs getting bitten in my neighborhood it is something I thought I should look into.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's a good idea. I think the main thing is potential for allergic reaction.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Zeeva said:


> I'm not sure what it does. We had rattlers when I was in Las Vegas but I didn't go hiking enough with my dogs to bother with a vaccination.


Amina, supposedly it is supposed to lessen the severity of the bite and give you a little extra time to get to the vet for the full anti-venom dose.
I'm just worried because I don't know much about the vaccine and if there would be any potential side effects or allergic reactions.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Here is the vaccine: Red Rock Biologics, Rattlesnake Vaccines

Since I almost stepped on a rattle snake last year in my yard I asked our vet about giving it to Nikki and he said absolutely not due to her health issues. He did tell me that he does give it to his dogs but that treatment still pretty much remains the same if they are vaccinted for it or not. 

P.S.: I am installing a snake fence this year 

Michaela


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> Here is the vaccine: Red Rock Biologics, Rattlesnake Vaccines
> 
> Since I almost stepped on a rattle snake last year in my yard I asked our vet about giving it to Nikki and he said absolutely not due to her health issues. He did tell me that he does give it to his dogs but that treatment still pretty much remains the same if they are vaccinted for it or not.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. I'll ask if that's the one they use. Did your vet mention any side effects?
I would install a snake fence if I could but my house faces open space and there's nothing to hold them back. I have found snakes in my garage and pretty much everywhere in my area. 
The only ones that disturb me are the really young ones. They don't give you much of a warning and will give you a full dose of venom.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I've been considering the vaccine as well. However, it's only purpose is to buy you a small window of opportunity to get your dog treated after the bite. My vet told me 1 to 2 hours...at best. Without the vaccine, the dog may die. There is a theory that your dog may not have an extreme reaction from the bite (itself) and will hang on long enough (1 to 2 hours) for you to seek treatment. However, if your dog has an immediate adverse reaction, with out the vaccine your dog will die. 

Not all vets carry the vaccine, and not all vets are equiped to treat a dog after a bite. It's up to you to set a course of action should your dog be bitten by a rattlesnake (or other snakes). 

There are also courses that are provided for dogs to teach them to avoid all snakes. Some courses are actually full (4 week) courses and some are just a couple of hours. It depends on the trainer. But all (that I've researched) utilize the shock collar. Which, I'd rather shock my dog in training, than for my dog to investigate a snake. 

If you are interested in a course, it's best to google hunting dog or retriever sites for more information.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Lilie, I've heard the same thing about the vaccine, that it only lessens the severity and will buy you enough time to get to the vet. Most of the vets in our area carry anti venom and I know enough to get my dog immediately to the vet if he is bitten.
I won't mess around with a snake bite. 
I'll have to look into classes to teach my dog to avoid snakes, although the way he goes after the flirt pole, that will be hard one to teach!


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

> Did your vet mention any side effects?


Not really, he just said that they don't know that much about the vaccine yet and he didn't want to give it to Nikki. She is never in the yard unsupervised so if anything were to happen she would be at the vets within 30 minutes. 



> The only ones that disturb me are the really young ones. They don't give you much of a warning and will give you a full dose of venom.


Don't get me started, in three years we never had a problem until last year. First I almost step on the big rattler and about three weeks later I throw the ball for Nikki and she wouldn't go to get it. So I go over and am about to reach down when I see a baby rattler...yikes. I check the yard before we go out but they are so hard to see.

I hope you and your dog stay safe!

Michaela


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Maybe I should post the question on the Search and Rescue thread. I'm wondering if SAR dogs are required to have that vaccine if they are in snake prone areas?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I live in Tucson where we have tons of rattlers and I do NOT recommend the rattlesnake vaccine. The biologics vaccine that was linked is the only anti-venom that I am aware of that is available for dogs. All the vaccine does is "buy you time" to get to the vet. The treatment will still be the same. The only thing that might differ is less anti-venom used for treatment. I have yet to see a case come in where a vaccinated dog is bit, but I really doubt it's efficacy. 

When I worked in a regular vet office we did offer it. I would say at least 50% of the dogs that received the vaccine had some sort of reaction at the vaccination site. After seeing that I would never, ever give it to my dogs. Rattlesnake avoidance training is a MUCH better alternative.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks Chrissy for the feedback. I didn't want to randomly give the vaccine without doing some research first. 
I guess I will be looking for some class somewhere where I can teach snake avoidance.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Bear GSD said:


> Thanks Chrissy for the feedback. I didn't want to randomly give the vaccine without doing some research first.
> I guess I will be looking for some class somewhere where I can teach snake avoidance.


Most trainers in areas with a lot of rattlers offer rattlesnake avoidance training. You see all the ads start popping up once spring/summer rolls around. Personally I think the training is much more effective then the vaccine.


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## 3dognite (May 28, 2003)

We got it a few times for my husband's Brittany--active hunting dog. We had to watch VERY closely for a reaction, but he was fine every time we had the shot.

One of the caveats with the rattlesnake vaccine, is that it doesn't really vaccinate totally, if the dog is bitten by a snake, you still have to get them to the vet right away. It mainly gives them a better fighting chance.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Bear GSD said:


> Maybe I should post the question on the Search and Rescue thread. I'm wondering if SAR dogs are required to have that vaccine if they are in snake prone areas?


My team doesn't require it, and I don't believe any of the dogs have it. I'm not sure how useful it would be for most SAR situations, as usually we're a lot more than a couple of hours away from a vet. 

FWIW, when I looked into it I decided it wasn't worth it. It really doesn't buy you much time, and the risk of a reaction to the vaccine is fairly high. Instead, I do rattlesnake aversion training on my dogs. It's very effective if you do it right, even with dogs who have a strong prey drive. The hardest part is finding a trainer who has snakes!

I am pretty sure there are trainers who do it up in your general area. I have friends in Fort Collins who have done it with their dogs, although I think they both had to drive a bit. I want to say there's someone in Longmont? If you'd like, I could see if I can get a name from one of my friends and PM you with it.

Also, it isn't actually true that babies are more dangerous than adult snakes. While it is true that they're still learning to control their venom, they also have less to inject and can't puncture as deeply with their little fangs. Most serious snakebites are caused by adult rattlesnakes. Just to clear up some misinformation.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Also just wanted to mention that I have not yet seen a dog with a rattlesnake bite die IF TREATED and quite a few r/s bites come in through ER. Treatment normally runs a couple thousand at least. I have seen 1 case at a regular vet's office where the owner refused treatment and only wanted antibiotics (old school cowboy) and the dog died later that night.


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## 4score (Nov 4, 2011)

We also have many rattle snakes here. Several people have gone to the aversion training and have reported great results. After finding a few babies in the yard last season, I'm thinking of trying the training next time I see it offered locally. Good luck with managing your problem there!


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I don't know how quickly Rattle Snake poison works but we have some (lol it seems like all of them) of the most poisonous snakes here in Australia.
There's no vaccination and unless you actually see your dog getting bitten there's not much chance it will survive. I hate summer with a passion, I'm so worried about snake bite but there's nothing can really do - snakes are just pat of living in the country 

Has anyone got any experience with the whole avoidance training? How does it work?


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> It's very effective if you do it right, even with dogs who have a strong prey drive. The hardest part is finding a trainer who has snakes!
> 
> You mean they train snake aversion classes using real snakes!!??
> 
> I am pretty sure there are trainers who do it up in your general area. I have friends in Fort Collins who have done it with their dogs, although I think they both had to drive a bit. I want to say there's someone in Longmont? If you'd like, I could see if I can get a name from one of my friends and PM you with it.


RowdyDogs, If you could PM the name of a trainer that does it, Longmont is pretty close to me and Ft. Collins is a ways but not that bad.

What do SAR people do in that situation of a dog getting bitten and you're a couple of hours away from help? Do you carry the anti-venom with you?
Thanks for your input


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

They do utilize real, live snakes. One trainer I spoke to uses a snake that is provided by a man who milks them of their venom. The snake's mouth is secured shut. I didn't ask how, I used my imagination. The actual live snake is used the last two days of training. 

I was also told that some trainers de-fang the snake for training and then they kill it when it is no longer needed. This class is a one day class. 

I have a friend that has a dog that went through the one day class, and then takes it to a refresher course every year. This specific dog won't even go near a garden hose left in the yard. 

I think it's worth mentioning that this type of class shouldn't be taken by young dogs. My breeder told me to wait till after my dog was over a year old. 

Also, some dogs have an adverse reaction to this type of training. My Lacy's sire reacted "like a coyote in a trap" and came up the leash when it was hit with the shock collar. It didn't recognize the snake as the object, but the handler (the trainer).


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Lilie, Are you saying that they train using E Collars? Is this the only way they train?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Bear GSD said:


> Lilie, Are you saying that they train using E Collars? Is this the only way they train?


Yes, I'm speaking of shock collars. I don't know if there is another way to train them. I suspect there would be. But I haven't spoken to anybody who uses any other method.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Yes, I'm speaking of shock collars. I don't know if there is another way to train them. I suspect there would be. But I haven't spoken to anybody who uses any other method.


So if they are trained using the shock collar then do they always have to wear it out? Or is it just for conditioning and when the class is over they can go back to wearing only a regular collar?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Bear GSD said:


> So if they are trained using the shock collar then do they always have to wear it out? Or is it just for conditioning and when the class is over they can go back to wearing only a regular collar?


Just for conditioning. I 'suspect' that they hit the dog pretty hard to leave a lasting impression. I actually had the chance to audited a one day class. It was pretty harsh. If that was my only option, I'd do it. But, for me, I'll take my dogs to the longer class. 

I admit, it looked cruel. And was hard to watch. But - I'd rather make a impact on my dog in a controlled environment, then to have any of my dogs get killed by a snake. I take my dogs to places where it could take up to an hour just to get off the property.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah, they use real snakes but as Lilie said, the snakes' mouths are secured shut.  Dogs don't generalize very well so you kind of have to use real snakes!

The training I did had a combination of an e-collar and then positive reinforcement for ignoring the snake. It's actually been really easy with all my dogs, as mine have had a natural aversion to snakes that is just tested/reinforced with the training...not sure why they are, but I've just been lucky. Some dogs at our classes have taken a lot more training.

You train initially with an e-collar, but then you test it without the collar. A good trainer will be really thorough about that. There are other methods of training that don't include an e-collar, but I think it's the easiest and most humane that I'm aware of. Since snakes are really appealing to dogs, you have to teach the dog that going after them is unpleasant, basically.

The training I went to wasn't particularly harsh. The collars were adjusted for each dog and the shock wasn't overdone. I'm sure it varies a lot from trainer to trainer, though, just like anything.

I sent an email to my friends in CO and will PM you when I hear back from them. 

As far as SAR stuff, we don't carry anti-venom or anything. We learn about first aid and how to treat a rattlesnake bite, and we do rattlesnake aversion training as a team. Plus, the dogs are either in your sight or they're working and hopefully ignore distractions from snakes.

Really though it isn't something I worry about that much. If you're in control of your dog, the odds of any given encounter resulting in a bite are minimal. The kind of rattlers you have in CO would rather just scare off your dog rather than bite, so unless you let the dog antagonize the snake, a bite is really unlikely. Even if a bite does occur, the majority of bites by western diamondbacks (which are most of what you'll encounter in CO) dry bites where very little to no venom is injected. Of course the puncture wounds alone still require a vet visit, but it's not immediately life-threatening in the way a venomous bite is. Of course that's not to say rattlesnakes aren't dangerous, but I don't think most dogs necessarily need aversion training to be safe. The only reason I got it with my dogs is that I was living in an area where there were tons of snakes (seriously, on a half-hour hack I once counted 37 rattlers), and I was working horses so my dogs were out with me but I wasn't necessarily paying close attention to them. If I was just hiking with dogs, I personally wouldn't worry about getting the training or the vaccine. JMO of course.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Rowdydogs, thanks for the response. I didn't realize what went into snake aversion training, 
I'm not sure I could go through it with my dog. I think I might want to sit in on one and decide whether it is something I could do.
I've decided to pass on the vaccine, so I guess I'll have to wait and hope the snake season is not too bad.
The snakes by me are pretty bad, my house faces open space with a prairie dog colony, so they are around everywhere, not just the trails. There have been quite a few dogs that have been bitten and a few that have died.
I don't let Bear off leash anywhere except the dog park because of it.
Thanks for all if the information, it was very helpful!
I hope that things are going well with Abi!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

teach your dog to stay away from rattlers. i know, how do
you do that? there's electronic decoys (snake like) that
you teach your dog to stay away from. the dog wears
an e-collar. when he nears rattle sound he gets a shock.
i'm not sure if a vibration is used.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Bear GSD said:


> Rowdydogs, thanks for the response. I didn't realize what went into snake aversion training,
> I'm not sure I could go through it with my dog. I think I might want to sit in on one and decide whether it is something I could do.


It's always a good idea to sit in and watch first and talk to 'dog people' to get recommendations. Some trainers are good, some are awful.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Abi is doing great, thanks for the good wishes.  She's a little rock star!

I'd definitely recommend sitting in on a training session before signing up and forking over money for it (I actually recommend that for any training class though). I've had really good experiences with rattlesnake training, but I've also heard some horror stories about extremely heavy-handed trainers. If a trainer won't let you watch, especially for something like rattlesnake training that requires specialized equipment that's more costly than the course itself (so it's not like you'd learn how to do it by watching and then run off to do it on your own), then that's a big red flag IMO.

I'm really a very positive trainer and I really avoid physical correction of any sort whenever possible, and I still didn't have a problem with the training I did. It wasn't fun, I will tell you that--not terrible, but normally I really enjoy training my dogs, and the rattlesnake training wasn't one of those times. But I didn't feel abusive or anything. To me, it was like a medical procedure--I've caused my dogs plenty of pain and discomfort that I'm sure they didn't understand (spay/neuter, vaccinations, removing my GSD's hind dew claws which were just connected by skin, dental cleanings, microchip insertions, etc.), but was necessary or at least advisable in the long run for the well-being of the dog. Rattlesnake training is in the same category for me--it's not something I'd ever do just for the heck of it, but if I deem the risk of a bite serious enough, it's worth it to cause my dogs temporary discomfort to protect them in the future. I hope that makes sense.

I also hope your snake season isn't too bad...I hope that for everyone, though! FWIW, I'd almost worry more about the prairie dogs than the snakes. It's a bigger concern in NM than CO (though it still happens up there), but prairie dogs are the biggest plague carriers around. Well, their fleas are to be accurate. It's not a concern for your dog, but it could be very unpleasant for you if he manages to carry a flea home, which can happen even with preventatives. It's actually not hard to catch the plague, it's just that with modern medicine you only die from it if your immune system is compromised or if you don't get treatment quickly.

I'm not doubting you at all, but I'm a little surprised that bites are common. I lived in Wellington (just north of Fort Collins) for years and was in a big rattlesnake nesting/migration/something area (I never saw so many baby rattlers in my life), and we had our dogs off leash all the time and I only heard of one bite in all that time. The dog did nearly die as venom was injected, but prompt vet treatment saved him, and I know it took them at least half an hour to get vet treatment as that was literally quickest you could get to a vet short of teleportation.  And in southern NM where I saw a freakish amount of adult rattlers and also no one fenced, supervised or leashed their dogs (ok slight exaggeration, some people had livestock fencing that snakes can get through easily), I never knew a dog to get bit. I know it happens, but I knew far more to be killed by coyotes, lost, or hit by cars than killed by snakes.

And again, I'm not trying to downplay the danger--a snakebite is definitely a serious thing, and dogs do die from them. It's just that of all the things that can happen to my dogs when we're hiking off-leash in snake country, the snakes are pretty low on my list of concerns.  Letting your dog off-leash in an open area is always dangerous, but IMO snakes get a bad rap. Or at least the western diamondbacks do, since some species are more aggressive than others to be fair.


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## skier16 (Feb 21, 2013)

i know this is old thread but to put in some more info my vet recommended against the vaccine because the effectiveness is debatable according to her. She says less than 50% of rattler bites actually get venom into a dog because of their bony leg structure. I also asked my dads friend who is retired but was the head of CSU vet for many yrs and he says the vaccine is totally unnecessary. he lives in a high rattler area and uses his dogs for hunting and he actually carries a vial of antivenom with him, I realize not many people can do this. He said his dog has been bit 2x and only once he had to treat with antivenom. At the dog park the other day people were talking about a class where the dogs get fitted with ecollars and exposed to rattlers with fangs removed and when the rattler bites the dog they get hit with a high stim level and then the dog is done with snakes forever. everyone who went raved about the effectiveness.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

skier16;3913937 At the dog park the other day people were talking about a class where the dogs get fitted with ecollars and exposed to rattlers with fangs removed and when the rattler bites the dog they get hit with a high stim level and then the dog is done with snakes forever. everyone who went raved about the effectiveness.[/QUOTE said:


> That is the exact training that will be provided for my blood tracking dog. I decided to enroll my GSD as well, even though he isn't a tracker, he is exposed to the enviornment where he could come across snakes. I've spoke to folks who put their dogs through the training yearly. They swear by it. In fact, they say if your dog suddenly veers way off track, you need to follow your dog!!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Talked with another SAR person who carries dexamethasone, injectable benadryl, and adrenaline in her pack. Thinking of seeing if I can get those from my vet for our woods adventures.

If we had had a bite this past weekend there would have been a world of trouble. 20 minute hike get to the 4WD "mule" vehicles, and a 20 minute drive to a parking lot where a helicopter could possibly land. And assuming the person was bit, it might be 40 minutes plus to get a stokes basket TO them. 

The copperheads were not to worry but there was a huge timber rattler on the trail. 

None of our team dogs have the vaccine. I don't think most SAR folks do though the ones out west tend to do avoidance training. More common for the dog running by to "wake up" the snake and put it on the defense and the handler to get bit.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Universities do not recommend this vaccine due to the possibility of adverse reactions.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

skier16 said:


> She says less than 50% of rattler bites actually get venom into a dog because of their bony leg structure.


So do rattlers only bite the legs?? What about the face if the dog attacks it or the snake lunges??
Our snakes over here have no trouble killing a dog by biting it's legs.....probably has more to do with how much venom a rattlesnake injects and how potent the venom is rather than where it bites the dog.


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