# Last set of shots tomorrow, rabies question.



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I know we have a ton of opinions here about the vaccine and when to give it. I asked the vet if we could do it a few weeks apart from others and he said "Sure, but unless a dog had previous reactions or has health issues, there is no reason to separate it". He mentioned that he has never seen an issue... 

I really never heard of an issue ether until the forums. 

I don't know...

Any feedback?

Also how long after the 4th set should we wait before we can go to other heavy dog areas? It's not the dog park that I am dying to go to, it's the beach that allows dogs!!! =)


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would still separate the rabies vax with the other ones. Your vet may have never 'seen' an issue because owners may not relate the vax'ing to what side effects the dog may have, and many vets choose not to acknowledge what is obvious.

The dog beach would be dicey, IMO(water consumption should be limited!)...but your dog is probably protected from what he was vaccinated for.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I would still separate the rabies vax with the other ones. Your vet may have never 'seen' an issue because owners may not relate the vax'ing to what side effects the dog may have, and many vets choose not to acknowledge what is obvious.
> 
> The dog beach would be dicey, IMO(water consumption should be limited!)...but your dog is probably protected from what he was vaccinated for.


Well it's the ocean so I hope he wont drink too much...


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Listen...I know that some members are very knowledgeable and have their own very well researched opinions on these things. But sometimes I wish people would maybe trust their vet a little bit more. You picked the guy, you're going to go to the guy, why question each one of their statements on an internet forum?

Think about it...that vet sees more dogs in one day and gives more rabies vaccines in one day than most of us will give in a lifetime.

I usually give all the vaccines in one day...I refuse to pay another $30 fee just to see the vet and have him give a vaccine. If I split up all my vaccines, on a yearly basis it would probably cost me at least $150 more a year to do them. And sure, no one wants to say that money isn't an issue...but that's a large amount of money to pay to decrease the already small risk that he'll have a reaction (on top of that he's never had a reaction so there's no reason to worry now).


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Are there any good articles on the rabies thing? I tried searching and all I am finding is other pet forums with this info, but no valid information on the reasoning. Someone said it was to prevent over stimulating the immune system, but that was on a forum post. I just want to show my husband. He is a pharmacist and he is the "Pro Vaccination type" so I need proof to fight him with lol, actual studies and warnings!


----------



## RiverDan (Mar 22, 2013)

We just had Barons done together. Rabies and last vaccine shots. I wish we had of separated the two. Here's why. The morning after Baron had a little eye discharge, and his left eye was slightly red. So I worry like crazy, and read nonstop to figure it out. Thinking allergies/ food/negative response to shots. Turns out I worried for nothing, his eye was better 48 hours later. It could have been one of a hundred things.
But with the shots being done together, I couldn't eliminate either or.
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Listen...I know that some members are very knowledgeable and have their own very well researched opinions on these things. But sometimes I wish people would maybe trust their vet a little bit more. You picked the guy, you're going to go to the guy, why question each one of their statements on an internet forum?
> 
> Think about it...that vet sees more dogs in one day and gives more rabies vaccines in one day than most of us will give in a lifetime.
> 
> I usually give all the vaccines in one day...I refuse to pay another $30 fee just to see the vet and have him give a vaccine. If I split up all my vaccines, on a yearly basis it would probably cost me at least $150 more a year to do them. And sure, no one wants to say that money isn't an issue...but that's a large amount of money to pay to decrease the already small risk that he'll have a reaction (on top of that he's never had a reaction so there's no reason to worry now).


I do agree with you, I REALLY like our vet, he is an older guy and he talks to my husband on medical level about everything, I just sit there and let it go over my head. He has been so super with everything so far.... He asked us when we wanted to neuter! He said 6 month wont hurt your dog, but after a year will let him muscle up more... you decide and if he starts being bad around the house, bring him in. With Pexy, he said he likes the surgery, but it's not 100% just an fyi. I asked about the rabies he said he won't charge me another office visit to come get it later, but he does not see why in the world I would want to do this.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I figure there is zero harm in separating so why not? Most healthy dogs can apparently "handle" the combos - but if my dog has an issue I would rather be able to link to one thing or another. 

My fellow is still slowly adding muscle going on 2. A lot of GSD lines mature slowly -mine last dog was 3 before fully muscled.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RiverDan said:


> We just had Barons done together. Rabies and last vaccine shots. I wish we had of separated the two. Here's why. The morning after Baron had a little eye discharge, and his left eye was slightly red. So I worry like crazy, and read nonstop to figure it out. Thinking allergies/ food/negative response to shots. Turns out I worried for nothing, his eye was better 48 hours later. It could have been one of a hundred things.
> But with the shots being done together, I couldn't eliminate either or.
> Just my 2 cents.


And here is the issue...do you have proof this was due to the vaccines being given at the same time? Or did your dog get into something that same day that you didn't notice and caused the redness in his eye?

Since people usually don't take the time to get HARD proof that X caused Y...you don't get many studies on this type of stuff. You get stories here and there with people making their own connections, spreading it to others, and so starts a chain of unsubstantiated information.

Correlation does not equal causation.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I figure there is zero harm in separating so why not? Most healthy dogs can apparently "handle" the combos - but if my dog has an issue I would rather be able to link to one thing or another.
> 
> My fellow is still slowly adding muscle going on 2. A lot of GSD lines mature slowly -mine last dog was 3 before fully muscled.


We will only neuter early if he starts having a hard time with his back foot, the 3 toe one. To keep him from getting too heavy.


----------



## RiverDan (Mar 22, 2013)

martemchik said:


> And here is the issue...do you have proof this was due to the vaccines being given at the same time? Or did your dog get into something that same day that you didn't notice and caused the redness in his eye?
> 
> Since people usually don't take the time to get HARD proof that X caused Y...you don't get many studies on this type of stuff. You get stories here and there with people making their own connections, spreading it to others, and so starts a chain of unsubstantiated information.
> 
> Correlation does not equal causation.


That's my point. I'll never know what it was. No way to prove any thing.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

martemchik said:


> And here is the issue...do you have proof this was due to the vaccines being given at the same time? Or did your dog get into something that same day that you didn't notice and caused the redness in his eye?
> 
> Since people usually don't take the time to get HARD proof that X caused Y...you don't get many studies on this type of stuff. You get stories here and there with people making their own connections, spreading it to others, and so starts a chain of unsubstantiated information.
> 
> Correlation does not equal causation.


Are you relater to my husband LOL sound just like him!


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Correlation does not equal causation but it opens the door to hypotheses which need to be tested.


----------



## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I told my vet I was concerned and he agreed to separate them by 2 weeks even though they usually do them all at once. 
Since the next time I came back it was for one shot they did not charge me an office visit because it was discussed before I left on the day she got 4th booster. I would just ask them if you could work something like that out, your concerns (no matter if they are scientifically based or not) should be their top priority.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Hi mego, I asked, they have no problem, because the shots are a "package" with office visit, I just have to pay for the whole thing and come back later to get just the shot. Jeff is researching this more, but If he can go to the beach without the rabies shot than that's all i care about  I am just trying to take him places. I see puppies everywhere I go and I think we are being way to protective... By the time I take him to PetSmart he will be full grown lol! 

With the beach, there are alot of wild animals and raccoons, but I am sure if I saw anything going towards my pup I would go WARRIOR on it.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mego said:


> I told my vet I was concerned and he agreed to separate them by 2 weeks even though they usually do them all at once.
> Since the next time I came back it was for one shot they did not charge me an office visit because it was discussed before I left on the day she got 4th booster. I would just ask them if you could work something like that out, your concerns (no matter if they are scientifically based or not) should be their top priority.


See I don't agree with this. It's great that your vet didn't charge you, but I don't think we should be expecting vets to not charge us because of a concern we get from reading a couple of internet forum posts. You are in fact taking up some of the vet's time that he could be devoting to other people that will pay for that time. To start expecting vets to start catering to each one of our needs and false concerns isn't fair, they are in the business of making money after all.

As to the comment about testing a hypothesis...that was my original point. A vet does this hundreds of times in a week, sees hundreds of dogs, and has thousands of dogs to base their opinions on. We (on the forum) have our dogs and just our dogs to base this off of, and then we get to hear the horror stories of others (since no one comes on to post "went to the vet today and everything went great" types of threads).

If the chance of your dog reacting is .01%, is it really worth the worry? That's like saying, I have a headache and I won't take Tylenol because there's a chance of a reaction. I'm sure that I love my dog just as much as everyone else on here and I don't want to put him at any extra risk, but sometimes, I feel like people get way too paranoid over the simplest of daily procedures.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My vet is very well paid to give the vaccines I could buy at the feed store or get at the mobile vaccine clinics for much less money.


----------



## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

martemchik said:


> See I don't agree with this. It's great that your vet didn't charge you, but I don't think we should be expecting vets to not charge us because of a concern we get from reading a couple of internet forum posts. You are in fact taking up some of the vet's time that he could be devoting to other people that will pay for that time. To start expecting vets to start catering to each one of our needs and false concerns isn't fair, they are in the business of making money after all.
> 
> As to the comment about testing a hypothesis...that was my original point. A vet does this hundreds of times in a week, sees hundreds of dogs, and has thousands of dogs to base their opinions on. We (on the forum) have our dogs and just our dogs to base this off of, and then we get to hear the horror stories of others (since no one comes on to post "went to the vet today and everything went great" types of threads).
> 
> If the chance of your dog reacting is .01%, is it really worth the worry? That's like saying, I have a headache and I won't take Tylenol because there's a chance of a reaction. I'm sure that I love my dog just as much as everyone else on here and I don't want to put him at any extra risk, but sometimes, I feel like people get way too paranoid over the simplest of daily procedures.


I gave my puppy lepto. They wanted to do lepto, 4th parvo booster, and rabies at the same time, and she had just finished up a round of antibiotics for vaginitis. I don't think it's expecting too much to not want to pound my puppy, who just got off antibiotics, with 3 vaccines at once. I think that it's better practice to space them out, and yes I would have paid for another office visit, but the fact that the vet told me "oh yeah you can just come in I can give the shot and it takes 2 minutes" why on earth would I pay an hour long office visit that would literally take him 2 minutes? As for taking up other people's time to cater to my needs...it takes them at least 5 minutes to weigh, take temperature etc with vet techs, it wasn't putting anyone out. 

I didn't space them out because I was worried about the rabies vaccine reacting poorly, I spaced them out because I didn't want my puppy feeling like absolute crap all day because she was stuck with so many needles.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Are you going to Fort de Soto? I love that place! I wish I lived in day-driving distance.


----------



## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

martemchik said:


> See I don't agree with this. It's great that your vet didn't charge you, but I don't think we should be expecting vets to not charge us because of a concern we get from reading a couple of internet forum posts. You are in fact taking up some of the vet's time that he could be devoting to other people that will pay for that time. To start expecting vets to start catering to each one of our needs and false concerns isn't fair, they are in the business of making money after all.
> 
> As to the comment about testing a hypothesis...that was my original point. A vet does this hundreds of times in a week, sees hundreds of dogs, and has thousands of dogs to base their opinions on. We (on the forum) have our dogs and just our dogs to base this off of, and then we get to hear the horror stories of others (since no one comes on to post "went to the vet today and everything went great" types of threads).
> 
> If the chance of your dog reacting is .01%, is it really worth the worry? That's like saying, I have a headache and I won't take Tylenol because there's a chance of a reaction. I'm sure that I love my dog just as much as everyone else on here and I don't want to put him at any extra risk, but sometimes, I feel like people get way too paranoid over the simplest of daily procedures.


With the first paragraph, it doesn't take up the vets time more than a few seconds to just get a shot. When I worked as a vet tech, the techs did all the vaccines and at the Saturday half price clinics, the vet didn't even see the dog. They don't even draw up the vaccine. All they do is sign off on the chart at the end of the day. Again, this is if you are only going in for shots and not for an exam.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Are you going to Fort de Soto? I love that place! I wish I lived in day-driving distance.


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My favorite place in the whole world and now I hear that the dog beach area is great! it's not really a dog park, but its a nice beach where they are allowed!


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

khigh said:


> With the first paragraph, it doesn't take up the vets time more than a few seconds to just get a shot. When I worked as a vet tech, the techs did all the vaccines and at the Saturday half price clinics, the vet didn't even see the dog. They don't even draw up the vaccine. All they do is sign off on the chart at the end of the day. Again, this is if you are only going in for shots and not for an exam.


I also just found out that we can buy and take the shot and my husband can give it to him to pup later. I am not letting him do it!!!!!!!!!!! LOL, but it's an option.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Neko said:


> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My favorite place in the whole world and now I hear that the dog beach area is great! it's not really a dog park, but its a nice beach where they are allowed!


Yep - it's the best dog beach! Really a place for the dogs, not a place for people that just allows dogs.


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Neko said:


> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My favorite place in the whole world and now I hear that the dog beach area is great! it's not really a dog park, but its a nice beach where they are allowed!


Here's Penny at Ft Desoto- we used to live in Tampa, loved that beach, it really was great and big and clean


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks Natalie so you think 18 weeks will be ok to go there? we will bring plenty of shade, water, etc etc! I am sure we will have a nice bubble bath after because he will be all salty and sandy


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sooooo, when are ya going? :wild:


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Sooooo, when are ya going? :wild:


Want to come????? lol!


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Yes I would go, you just want to watch out for other dogs, always want your puppies experiences to be positive, also don't let him drink the salt water, it's SO dehydrating and it goes straight through them if you know what I mean. One thing I really liked about Desoto is it's SO BIG that you have plenty of room to stretch out away from the other people and dogs if that's what you want.


----------



## AngelaA6 (Jan 20, 2013)

My vet separated Gunther's rabies vaccs without even telling me and I'm a-okay with that after I've read the stuff on this forum. She so far has vaccinated with caution and tries not to vaccinate all at once and will explain to me why. Her reasoning though is that it's so she knows what vaccine gave what reaction if there was one and to then avoid it for next time and that certain vaccines can cause a bad reaction together sometimes and she doesn't want to risk it.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Listen...I know that some members are very knowledgeable and have their own very well researched opinions on these things. But sometimes I wish people would maybe trust their vet a little bit more. You picked the guy, you're going to go to the guy, why question each one of their statements on an internet forum?
> 
> Think about it...that vet sees more dogs in one day and gives more rabies vaccines in one day than most of us will give in a lifetime.
> 
> *I usually give all the vaccines in one day...I refuse to pay another $30 fee just to see the vet and have him give a vaccine*. If I split up all my vaccines, on a yearly basis it would probably cost me at least $150 more a year to do them. And sure, no one wants to say that money isn't an issue...but that's a large amount of money to pay to decrease the already small risk that he'll have a reaction (on top of that* he's never had a reaction so there's no reason to worry now*).


Why do you vaccinate yearly? Have you researched the changing protocols? It isn't always about the 'reaction' but what long term effects that toxic cocktail may have....auto immune disorders, behavior issues, there are many reasons for NOT doing it. 

http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/33789611348/changing-pet-vaccine-protocol

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Excerpt: 

*W. Jean Dodds DVM*, vaccination scientist:
“I was always a clinical research scientist, but colleagues and pet owners would tell me about malaise and illness that appeared shortly after pet animals were vaccinated. This was in addition to the rare case of anaphylaxis induced by vaccination. They spoke about irritability, low-grade or even high fever, anorexia, stiffness, and occasional seizure-like episodes. These usually occurred from 2-10 days post-vaccination, sometimes longer (up to 45 days)."
“The clinical signs associated with vaccine reactions typically include fever, stiffness, sore joints and abdominal tenderness, susceptibility to infections, neurological disorders and encephalitis, collapse with autoagglutinated red blood cells and icterus (autoimmune hemolytic anemia) (AIHA), or generalized petechiae and ecchymotic hemorrhages (immune-mediated thrombocytopenia) (ITP)." 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 12, 13
“Hepatic enzymes may be markedly elevated, and liver or kidney failure may occur by itself or accompany bone marrow suppression. Furthermore, MLV vaccination has been associated with the development of transient seizures in puppies and adult dogs of breeds or cross-breeds susceptible to immune-mediated diseases especially those involving hematologic or endocrine tissues (e.g. AIHA, ITP, autoimmune thyroiditis)." 1, 7, 10 "Post-vaccinal polyneuropathy is a recognized entity associated occasionally with the use of distemper, parvovirus, rabies and presumably other vaccines." 2, 3, 7 " This can result in various clinical signs including muscular atrophy, inhibition or interruption of neuronal control of tissue and organ function, muscular excitation, incoordination and weakness, as well as seizures." 7
“Certain breeds or families of dogs appear to be more susceptible to adverse vaccine reactions, particularly post-vaccinal seizures, high fevers, and painful episodes of hypertrophic osteodystrophy (HOD)". 7, 9 "Vaccination of pet and research dogs with polyvalent vaccines containing rabies virus or rabies vaccine alone was recently shown to induce production of antithyroglobulin autoantibodies, a provocative and important finding with implications for the subsequent development of hypothyroidism." 10

*References:*


Dodds WJ. Immune-mediated diseases of the blood. Adv Vet Sci Comp Med 1983; 27:163-196.
Phillips TR, Jensen JL, Rubino MJ, Yang WC, Schultz RD. Effects on vaccines on the canine immune system. Can J Vet Res 1989; 53: 154-160.
Tizard I. Risks associated with use of live vaccines. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1990; 196:1851-1858.
Duval D, Giger U. Vaccine-associated immune-mediated hemolytic anemia in the dog. J Vet Int Med 1996;10: 290-295.
Cohen AD, Shoenfeld Y. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity. J Autoimmunity 1996; 9: 699-703.
Schultz R. Current and future canine and feline vaccination programs. Vet Med 1998; 93:233-254.
Dodds WJ. More bumps on the vaccine road. Adv Vet Med 1999; 41: 715-732.
HogenEsch H, Azcona-Olivera J, Scott-Moncrieff C, Snyder PW, Glickman LT. Vaccine-induced autoimmunity in the dog. Adv Vet Med 1999; 41:733-744.
Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 2001; 38: 1-4.
Scott-Moncrieff JC, Azcona-Olivera J, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, HogenEsch H. Evaluation of antithyroglobulin antibodies after routine vaccination in pet and research dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2002; 221: 515-521.
Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: 2003 canine vaccine guidelines, recommendations, and supporting literature. AAHA, April 2003, 28 pp.
May C, Hammill J, Bennett, D. Chinese shar pei fever syndrome: A preliminary report. Vet Rec 1992;131: 586-587.
Scott-Moncrieff JC, Snyder PW, Glickman LT, Davis EL, Felsburg PJ. Systemic necrotizing vasculitis in nine young beagles. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1992; 201: 1553-1558.
Dodds WJ. Estimating disease prevalence with health surveys and genetic screening. Adv Vet Sci Comp Med 1995; 39: 29-96.
Wilbur LA, Evermann JF, Levings RL, Stoll LR, Starling DE, Spillers CA, Gustafson GA, McKeirnan AJ. Abortion and death in pregnant bitches associated with a canine vaccine contaminated with blue tongue virus. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1994; 204:1762-1765.
Day MJ, Penhale WJ. Immune-mediated disease in the old English sheepdog. Res Vet Sci 1992; 53: 87-92.
Dougherty SA, Center SA. Juvenile onset polyarthritis in Akitas. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1991; 198: 849-855.
Vascellari M, Melchiotti E, Bozza MA et al. Fibrosarcomas at presumed sites of injection in dogs: characteristics and comparison with non-vaccination site fibrosarcomas and feline post-vaccinal firosarcomas. J Vet Med 50 (6): 286-291, 2003
Dr. Jean Dodds, wrote: “Rabies vaccines are the most common group of biological products identified in adverse event reports received by the USDA’s Center for Veterinary Biologics (CVB).” How to Vaccinate Against Rabies More Safely | Truth4Dogs


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

So my husband did the research, was reading drug notes from FDA and there is no proofs or reasons to separate the vaccine. There is no such thing as over stimulate the immune system, your body is constantly under attack by many things at the same time. The drug info states to give to a different injection site, but nothing about combos. I lost the battle. 

He also does not approve of holistic approaches and does not trust a holistic vet blogging about what he believes in. sorry =( 

I will ask the doc if I can push it to be given when he is a bit older, but in the end I am just going to trust the vet. He loves Zeus and gives him hugs and kisses so I am sure this guys is not going to do anything or recommend anything that harms him.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

As for the dog parks and dog areas, how soon can we go after final shots???? My poor boy has been separated from dogs for so long that he does not even know how to play with others. We had a play date and Z did not know what do do and how to act around the other puppy, he just rolled around and followed the other puppy while that pup was playing...


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Neko said:


> So my husband did the research, was reading drug notes from FDA and there is no proofs or reasons to separate the vaccine. There is no such thing as over stimulate the immune system, your body is constantly under attack by many things at the same time. The drug info states to give to a different injection site, but nothing about combos. I lost the battle.


I'm not pushing for either way...I just want to see more concrete facts and numbers. Every time you see a post about a vaccine or a vet blogging there are never exact studies. The language is usually very ambiguous and its just a vet seeing something but never really explaining the chances of it happening. Just read the excerpt that Momto2GSD's posted...there is absolutely ZERO concrete language in there.

BTW...I'm switching to a holistic vet, and I do believe that there are a lot of things that are better done in a more natural way. I just wish that some of these "studies" could give you clear answers rather than "there's a chance" or "some dogs experienced X." Human drugs or practices have to disclose the numbers (not on the commercial, but in written documents), makes me think that sometimes the vet doing the study has their own agenda that they want to influence by freaking people out. It wouldn't be hard to say 5/1000 dogs experienced this...and then let the reader decide if they're willing to take that risk with their dog, but instead they say, a few dogs experienced this and it makes the reader think that it was a much more significant number.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Make sure it is Thimerosal free - as you read this you will come to find that they just cannot come to a conclusion - yah or nay...but it is guarded AND recognized that needs to be investigated further...

So if science is so behind in human studies, then do you really think you are going to find "proof" in dogs - Ronald Shultz is a immunization scientist as is Jean Dodd's - not a holistic quack who blogs "opinions" only

Thimerosal in Vaccines


*The Safety Review of Thimerosal-containing Vaccines and Neurodevelopmental Disorders Conducted by the Institute of Medicine*
In 2001, the Institute of Medicine convened a committee (the Immunization Safety Review Committee) to review selected issues related to immunization safety. [For more information regarding this committee, their charge, and their reports, find the link to IOM's Web site in "Related Links" below.] The IOM has, to date, completed reviews in two areas. The first review by this committee focused on a potential link between autism and the combined mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine. The second review focused on a potential relationship between thimerosal use in vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders (IOM 2001). This latter issue was brought to the fore primarily as the result of the hypothesis, formulated by S. Bernard and others from Cure Autism Now, that autism is a novel form of mercury poisoning (Bernard et al. 2001); this hypothesis, linking autism to mercury, was based on a comprehensive review of the scientific literature on mercury toxicity.
In its report of October 1, 2001, *the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to either accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay*. Additional studies were needed to establish or reject a causal relationship. *The Committee did conclude that the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders was biologically plausible*.
The Committee believed that the effort to remove thimerosal from vaccines was "a prudent measure in support of the public health goal to reduce mercury exposure of infants and children as much as possible." Furthermore, in this regard, the Committee urged that "full consideration be given to removing thimerosal from any biological product to which infants, children, and pregnant women are exposed."
In 2004, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee issued its final report, examining the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the MMR vaccines and thimerosal containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. In this report, the committee incorporated new epidemiological evidence from the U.S., Denmark, Sweden, and the United Kingdom, and studies of biologic mechanisms related to vaccines and autism since its report in 2001. The committee concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only. Further, the committee stated that the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative, and that widespread rejection of vaccines would lead to increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough and Hib bacterial meningitis.
*The FDA is continuing its efforts to reduce the exposure of infants, children, and pregnant women to mercury from various sources*. Discussions with the manufacturers of influenza virus vaccines (which are now routinely recommended for pregnant women and children 6-23 months of age) regarding their capacity to potentially increase the supply of thimerosal-reduced and thimerosal-free presentations are ongoing. Discussions are also underway with regard to other vaccines. Of note, all hepatitis B vaccines for the U.S., including for adults, are now available only as thimerosal-free or trace-thimerosal-containing formulations. In addition, all immune globulin preparations including hepatitis B immune globulin, and Rho(D) immune globulin preparations are manufactured without thimerosal. For additional information on the issue of thimerosal in vaccines, see Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs).


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Neko said:


> So my husband did the research, was reading drug notes from FDA and there is no proofs or reasons to separate the vaccine. There is no such thing as over stimulate the immune system, your body is constantly under attack by many things at the same time. The drug info states to give to a different injection site, but nothing about combos. I lost the battle.
> 
> He also does not approve of holistic approaches and does not trust a holistic vet blogging about what he believes in. sorry =(
> 
> I will ask the doc if I can push it to be given when he is a bit older, but in the end I am just going to trust the vet. He loves Zeus and gives him hugs and kisses so I am sure this guys is not going to do anything or recommend anything that harms him.


 I respectfully disagree as side effects are not typically reported to the FDA. So everyone should research multiple data that’s out there and then, make up their own minds about how many viruses’ get injected into a new little life.
Quote Dr. Jean Dodds: “But, IF one applied the only 1% estimated reporting figure of “serious” events from the former head of the FDA to the 10,000 adverse events reported for animal rabies vaccines, 65% of which were in dogs, then the actual number of dogs that had adverse reactions to the vaccine *could be as high as 650,000 in that 3 year period with 3,575 (5.5%) of the dogs dying from their adverse reaction.” *Adverse Reactions to Vaccine: Treatment and Management | Truth4Dogs 
“The 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA) Vaccine Guidelines reports (regarding _all_ vaccines) there is: *“gross under-reporting of vaccine-associated adverse events which impedes knowledge of the ongoing safety of these products.” * Unless a vet is an avid veterinary journal reader, he/she may be stuck in the mindset of believing shots are safe and that if shots are good, more shots are better.”

I agree with Gator


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Neko said:


> So my husband did the research, *was reading drug notes from FDA and there is no proofs or reasons to separate the vaccine*. There is no such thing as over stimulate the immune system, your body is constantly under attack by many things at the same time. The drug info states to give to a different injection site, but nothing about combos. I lost the battle.
> 
> He also does not approve of holistic approaches and does not trust a holistic vet blogging about what he believes in. sorry =(
> 
> I will ask the doc if I can push it to be given when he is a bit older, but in the end I am just going to trust the vet. He loves Zeus and gives him hugs and kisses so I am sure this guys is not going to do anything or recommend anything that harms him.


Not sure if you read the link - IT is the FDA site


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

This conversation kinda went completely away from my original question. We are just trying to give our dog a mandatory vaccine. 

As for medicine vs herbals etc... There are negative to them too. The reason you see so much about vaccines is because they are studied on a large scale and so much more is reported. Herbals are not regulated and you have no idea what really is safe to be give together and what is not. I had one herbal that I was taking since I was a kid, grandmas remedy type of thing. Recently discovered that it helps with one thing, but kills your liver 
in process. I guess I rather take a small known risk than unknown.

Every post I make somehow turns into a huge holistic debate and I just get overwhelmed because not everyone has the time or interest in it. Does not make me a bad pet owner. I trust modern medicine for myself, my family and I guess my pet.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I guess I get touchy about drug safety because of how hard my husband works towards drug safety and research, all for it. A very horrible and evil drug that has a million side effects is also keeping my father alive, there are no other option for him than that 1 thing. 

It's not like we have an option not to give rabies vaccine, all I wanted to know was to separate it by 2 weeks or not and why. The fact that there are drug reactions and side effects was never an argument, I know it can happen, but at the end of the day, it is still a mandatory thing I have to do.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My primary vet is allopathic all the way. He's the busiest surgeon at the clinic, to to point that he no longer takes new clients. He recommends staggering vaccines. He also doesn't charge me an extra office visit when he gives these later shots. If you can separate them by a few weeks, I think that's the best thing - going by what my vet prefers to do.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Momto2GSDs said:


> I respectfully disagree as side effects are not typically reported to the FDA. So everyone should research multiple data that’s out there and then, make up their own minds about how many viruses’ get injected into a new little life.
> Quote Dr. Jean Dodds: “But, IF one applied the only 1% estimated reporting figure of “serious” events from the former head of the FDA to the 10,000 adverse events reported for animal rabies vaccines, 65% of which were in dogs, then the actual number of dogs that had adverse reactions to the vaccine *could be as high as 650,000 in that 3 year period with 3,575 (5.5%) of the dogs dying from their adverse reaction.”*


*

1% estimated reporting? So now we're using an ESTIMATE, to make another ESTIMATE and then blowing that statistical ESTIMATE up to the population?!?! Man...even a little knowledge about statistics would show you how wrong that type of reasoning is. This is one of those cases where you can make a statistic to say anything you want.

And just to put your 3,575 number into perspective. 650,000 adverse reactions out of the estimated 78,200,000 dogs in the United States means that .83% of dogs have adverse reactions. And if 3575 dogs die (again all assumptions) that is .55% percent of dogs dying if they have an adverse reaction. So that means the chance of your dog dying from a rabies vaccine is .83% x .55% which is pretty much 0.

So there is the "risk" you're spreading. An estimate (which I believe is a crazy over estimate), still shows that the chance of a dog dying from a rabies vaccine is pretty much 0. On top of that, the chances of your dog contracting rabies are less than that lol. But legally we have to vaccinate so we do.

Anyone see that commercial where the dog is always in a bubble or a plastic tube of some sort? That's pretty much what we're coming to with all this research...don't do this, don't do that, that thing that's worked for 100s of years, that's a death trap.*


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> My primary vet is allopathic all the way. He's the busiest surgeon at the clinic, to to point that he no longer takes new clients. He recommends staggering vaccines. He also doesn't charge me an extra office visit when he gives these later shots. If you can separate them by a few weeks, I think that's the best thing - going by what my vet prefers to do.


Thank you =)


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Neko said:


> I guess I get touchy about drug safety because of how hard my husband works towards drug safety and research, all for it. A very horrible and evil drug that has a million side effects is also keeping my father alive, there are no other option for him than that 1 thing.
> 
> It's not like we have an option not to give rabies vaccine, all I wanted to know was to separate it by 2 weeks or not and why. The fact that there are drug reactions and side effects was never an argument, I know it can happen, but at the end of the day, it is still a mandatory thing I have to do.


 
Why I suggested themerasol free ~ especially if given at time of other vax. which contain aluminum

Aluminum in vaccines increases thimerosal’s toxicity

That essay prompted an insightful comment from Dr. Haley, wherein he reports that vaccine-levels of aluminum exacerbate the pathologic potential of vaccinal thimerosal:
Dr. Haley explained, “Note that aluminum alone does not cause the abnormal biochemistry and production of neurofibillary tangles as does mercury (and only mercury) due to the specific interaction of mercury at specific sulfhydryl sites in specific enzymes/proteins known to be affected dramatically in AlzheimerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s disease.Ã‚Â However, in our studies on neurons in culture we found that *aluminum at levels found in vaccines dramatically enhanced the toxicity of thimerosal and mercury cation thereby decreasing the level of mercury required to have the toxic effects.”*

Importantly, some vaccines including many flu shots still contain thimerosal, and many contain one or another of the aluminum compounds used as adjuvants. Thus we repeat: aluminum at levels present in vaccines increases the toxicity of thimerosal, which is ~49.6% ethylmercury by weight. Thus when an infant, toddler, or pregnant woman is injected with *a vaccine or a combination of vaccines containing aluminum compounds and thimerosal, the likelihood of adverse effects is increased.*

Furthermore, *other peer-reviewed studies* have documented some of the mechanisms by which aluminum and mercury induce pathologies seen as neurodeneneration (eg, 10-14, 15-17).

Here is other...
THIMEROSAL - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I don't think anyone here is saying NOT to vaccinate, just not with so many at a time, not every year (unless titers show low values), and make sure there is a break in-between as suggested by Dr. Dodds.
This site is a breakdown of The Purdue Study by Cathrine O'Driscoll that might help. Also see the EndNotes for further reading: SCIENCE OF VACCINE DAMAGE by Cat


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Just because I asked, the vet said lets do rabies in 2 weeks. No fee, I prepaid for the puppy shot pack. Our furbaby is only 31 pounds  17 weeks on Monday... he looks healthy... def off the growth chart, but vet thinks he is going to hit that mark any-day and gain 1-2 pounds a day!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Glad to hear your vet is being proactive. He's a keeper!


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's great


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

He really is great, told us after 6 month its up to us when we want to neuter, looked at his umbilical hernia and said it was not so bad and his foot is doing good. We will wait and bundle the procedures so he is put under only once. We will wait as long as we can to neuter, but might not be as long as everyone because he might need to stay lighter to keep weight off his missing toe. overall i think we are in good hands.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There's nothing better than a vet you have confidence in! Especially if you're a worry wart like I am, lol. My puppy also has an umbilical hernia, and last year my vet said it could wait until I neutered him, but when we went in for the rabies vax in March he said it was so small that it wouldn't be worth bothering with. Fingers crossed that you have the same luck. I'm glad his foot is doing good!


----------



## shawk2424 (Feb 6, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Listen...I know that some members are very knowledgeable and have their own very well researched opinions on these things. But sometimes I wish people would maybe trust their vet a little bit more. You picked the guy, you're going to go to the guy, why question each one of their statements on an internet forum?
> 
> Think about it...that vet sees more dogs in one day and gives more rabies vaccines in one day than most of us will give in a lifetime.
> 
> I usually give all the vaccines in one day...I refuse to pay another $30 fee just to see the vet and have him give a vaccine. If I split up all my vaccines, on a yearly basis it would probably cost me at least $150 more a year to do them. And sure, no one wants to say that money isn't an issue...but that's a large amount of money to pay to decrease the already small risk that he'll have a reaction (on top of that he's never had a reaction so there's no reason to worry now).


well said


----------

