# 2 Bloats in 10 Days... 4HEALTH dog Food Warning



## vdsauk

I don't normally post here... but seeing as not everyone in the world follows me or the von der Sauk FB page... I want to give a warning of caution.... my storie follows below...

So... my loving husband, loving mother, caring neighbor and I are all pretty freaked out from our recent terrify events.

Monte bloated on a Saturday evening. We caught it. We saved him. He's without a spleen and lost many vessels to his stomach but is now making so far a good recovery. He has weeks to go.

10 days later (Sept 20, 2011) my best show female V3 Kally von der Piste Trophe SCHH2 is found dead in the kennel. Kally wasn't someone that loved other female dogs so she wasn't part of our house or garage crew but was with access to our back yard where she got her attention daily. 

Monte is a dog that has more stress in his life, he is male, 8.5 years old and in general makes a better 'bloat' canidate. 

Kally... found... and we can say with all honesty finding her how we did and with circumstances bloated. She was NOT a stressful dog, nevous, thin, fed at an elevated level, over fed, under fed, excercised before or after eating. She was 7 years old and has NONE of the predispositions for bloat out side of being a German Shepherd dog (aka a deep chested dog).

Having had shepherds for over the last 12 years of my life. And at times having over 20 ADULTS on site, and many times with youngsters having had over 50+ GSDs as well as other large breed dogs on site (rescues and boarding/training clients) I've never experienced BLOAT first hand in my home. 

Not only is this driving me mentally crazy, wondering why me, and what did I do, and how come... there is no reason... no logical reason.

So I've started looking with my husband, mother and neighbor all of which are very active in the kennel program. Together we've started becoming concerned because of the ONLY change that was made in the kennel in the last WEEKS!

So... with that being said... what changed?

For a long time we fed Royal Canin GSD Adult and Puppy. (RCGS and RCGSP)
For a long time we also fed Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice. (DNCR) 
For a long time we fed Taste of the Wild. (TOTW)
For a long time we fed RAW.

No issues ever presented with these foods.

A few weeks ago (6-8?) we started looking at quality foods but for a lower price. All the young dogs get DNCR only. They do great on it. Never gassy etc. My husbands feeds them (approx 16 young adults).

At the boarding kennel we have some dogs my mother feeds... they get DNCR, RAW, or RCGS... never any issues. 8-18 depending on the boarding kennel....

At the house we feed our puppies (3 10x10's in quarantine)... RAW... then as they get older (8+ weeks) RAW and RCGSP mix..... Then I look after feeding our sport dogs and a lot of the mothers, or expecting mothers, or hard to keep weight on dogs and a few older pups (6-7 months and under)... Until a few weeks ago everyone at the house with the exceptiom of BRONGO, FARIN, MONTE, BUFFY, got a mixture of DNCR, TOTW and RAW.
It wasn't until I moved the TOTW out of the picture when I added in the 4HEALTH... 
I slowly worked DNCR almost out of the picture so it was 4HEALTH and RAW.

Monte, Farin, Buffy ate only the NEW food and have for the last weeks... I was trying it out... 35lb bag for like $30 great deal... great ingredients etc... They ate approx 3 cups a day. 

Brongo ate TOTW or RCGS


So... what happened... 4HEALTH came into the picture... a consistent diet... they loved the food. MONTE bloats... having had 2 cups 4HEALTH that night and in 30 minutes is already on the way to getting emergency care.

10 days later I fed Kally in the morning only that day 1/2lb raw and 2 cups 4HEALTH.

She didn't have supper that night. 

I found her dead in the morning.


THE ONLY change on our place was 4HEALTH.... 


So... we did some tests.

RCGS floating in a lot of water. Takes 2-3 times longer to absorb it then DNCR and 4HEALTH.

TOTW Absorbs it all but doesn't get overly big. As RCGS absorbs the food it stays fair firm and only gets about twice the size as the kibble it was. Taste of the Wild does the same. But gets mushy more easily as it is smaller kibble.

The digestion rate of RCGS is great!

DNCR gets about twice the size... but doesn't get real foamy or sponge like. And it takes longer...

But 4HEALTH... WOW... 1 cup of kibble almost filled our bowl in the test... and FAST compared to the others. Within a short time I had to add MORE water to it... and then MORE again! It got HUGE! Some pieces went 4-5 times the size of the other pieces...

I've immediately removed ALL my puppies from ALL 4 HEALTH products. We've finished up a bag with some younger dogs (less prone to bloat)... 

So... I think I need to let people know... take it or leave it...
If I had to make a bet... I know what killed my dog... and what almost killed my dog.

Soak your dogs food and see what it does... buy smaller bags of foods before you get a big one... do a test... you can always donate it to a shelter or rescue who can feed smaller breed dogs not prone for issues.

Now, we have DNCR and RCGS and RCGSP and Raw here... 

4Health looked great....... but it can take a hike... not in my kennel it does NOT belong!


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## Germanshepherdlova

Thanks for the warning.


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## onyx'girl

This is so disturbing and very sad to read. My sympathy to you. I am glad I feed raw and not kibble, I hope this warning is heeded & spread. 
So sorry for the loss of your Kally, and hope that Monte makes a smooth recovery.


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## msvette2u

I'm so sorry for your loss.
Were you able to do a necropsy on your female?

Also, I have a question, isn't raw supposed to be fed in a separate meal from kibble (if you're going to do both). I've always heard that but only fed raw once, when I did, it was in the AM and kibble PM.


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## Wolfgeist

Wow... that is terrifying... I am so sorry for your loss and your struggles.

Kibble terrifies me because of how it expands in the stomach... I am so paranoid about bloat. At least raw doesn't expand, and digests quickly in a carnivore's stomach.

So sorry for your loss.. Thank you for sharing this.


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## ChancetheGSD

I totally agree with Onyx! Very tragic, but at least one baby is safe!  Fingers crossed for a smooth recovery!

Though RAW doesn't prevent bloating either, a dog can bloat on ANYTHING. One member here had a dog bloat after drinking too much water while doing tracking. Sadly, it's just something we are forced to live with when we own dogs, especially deep chested/bloat prone breeds.

I do however feel that this is a good post regardless. Many people don't consider how much the food they feed swells and to get 4-5x bigger than it's original size is shocking. Especially when members come along saying they feed 2-4 cups of food in ONE sitting!!! Imagine how much food is then expanded into their stomachs!! O_O


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## ChancetheGSD

msvette2u said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss.
> Were you able to do a necropsy on your female?
> 
> Also, I have a question, isn't raw supposed to be fed in a separate meal from kibble (if you're going to do both). I've always heard that but only fed raw once, when I did, it was in the AM and kibble PM.


I've never had issues feeding raw and kibble together nor has anyone in my family.

I think bloating is just one of those things that if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. Despite the warnings of don't do this or don't do that, nobody truly knows how to prevent bloating, only how to take a couple of precautions to hopefully prevent it. :/


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## Stosh

I'm so sorry for your tragic losses and I thank you for your post


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## GSD84

So sorry for your loss. We feed royal canin and just the other day some left over bits fell in the water bowl and I was shocked to see how much bigger it got.


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## BUBBAGSD

I am so sorry for your loss..


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## cindy_s

I'm so sorry for your loss. And I hope Monte has a speedy recovery. I've never been faced with bloat so far, and hopefully I never will. Your "experiment" is interesting. Have you contacted the company to get their take on it?


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## vdsauk

Thanks all... the goal is to just get as many informed... Monte is on Raw only now... but I know even that isn't a fool proof method... but from research it certainly seems to help... 

Please share with friends and family my experience with 4Health I'd hate to read this about another dog and find they also ate the same thing...


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## KZoppa

Sorry for your loss and almost loss. My dogs love 4health and are restricted on water intake before and after meals for at least an hour before and after as well as activity. I'm sticking with what works for my dogs and our budget. Only other choice would be going back to purina and thats not happening.


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## vdsauk

Kzoppa... I am not inexperienced with dogs by any means... what I write has reason... and is to make sure people are aware, so IF it happens to their dog, they maybe have a better understanding of what went on when none of the other reasons are the reason for bloat... I've never had an issue not until 4Health Came into my kennel. I am sure thousands feed it, and maybe 1000 will never have a problem. I hope you never do. 

My male that bloated was not drinking extensively. He did not drink much before as his water bucket was 3/4 full, and had not over exerted himself, or was overly excited, nervous etc... he did not drink to my knowledge 1-3/4hour prior to feeding and did not drink at all after the feeding. He bloated LESS then 3/4 of an hour from eating... Kally barely drank a gallon a day, I'd refresh her water daily and less then 1/8 would be gone (in a 5gallon bucket)! 
Her food did not have excessive water in it, only what was used to aid in the mixture of the raw so less then 1/3 a cup.
For me it also worked in my budget, but a $3000 bloat bill my dog loosing his spleen and 3/4 of the blood vessels to his stomach and another dog dead is all to me much more out of budget. When it works for you then feed it... but I know it worked for me until this happened.

Just a price thing for you...
Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice doesn't do what 4health does and at Tractor Supply it is like $28 for a 40lb bag. Which is less expensive then 4Health. My dogs have beautiful coats that eat that, and great stools. And not excessive stools.


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## dazedtrucker

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to post this here. Thank you very much, and I will share. That's shocking.


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## wolfstraum

Sorry for the loss of your female - glad Monte made it!

The info is much appreciated too! I am pretty skeptical about changing foods, and have rarely done so....I will be sure to note that this is NOT a good food - why take a chance???

Lee


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## BowWowMeow

I am very sorry for your loss. What a terrible shock. I hope your surviving dog has a smooth recovery. 

I do want to say that there are many people who avoid Diamond products at all cost because their food safety record is not good. There are quite a few people around here whose dogs suffered liver failure and died from contaminated Diamond food in 2006.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

So sorry for your loss, thanks for the heads up on the food.


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## Anja1Blue

It has been many years since I fed kibble, so I can't comment on the food itself - I can only offer you my sincere condolences on losing Kally, a very lovely girl, I've seen photos of her on your website. How dreadful for her to pass in that manner. May she rest in peace.....and may Monte continue to thrive. :hugs:
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## PupperLove

Wow, that's some scary stuff. Thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry about your dogs  What a terrible mess to go through ...

I feed my dogs Diamond Naturals, and they are doing great. Im glad to hear it did better in your test.


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## dogdragoness

I wet the food with a little canned / with water so the food isn't going in their stomachs dry, i also feed one time a day (night) so they get plenty of time to digest their food better.


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## msvette2u

We use primarily Diamond products, even back when they had their recalls, never had problems or a bloat. And we have Dachshunds and a Basset, all dogs known to be prone to bloat. 
We use Kirkland and also some Diamond Naturals (not plain Diamond) and keep TOTW on hand for allergic dogs...


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## carmspack

sorry for your loss .

I am not familiar with this food at all , so I did a quick google to see what the ingredients are . I was surprised to see "broccoli crowns" crowns! which seems to indicate a large volume of broccoli. 
That was a bit of a shocker.

Recently in a med journal that I get there was an article on broccoli mentioning all the anti cancer benefits it has for humans , and an active enzyme isothiocyanate , found in aboundance in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables.

Good for us.

TOXIC to dogs. 

Broccoli is toxic to dogs. This was listed in the list provided by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association and by the American Veterinary Medical Association.

I frequently attend huge health oriented shows , or make myself available Saturdays at an "organics" market where I field questions about feeding raw and kibble feeding , also providing grass fed and organic ground meat for dog diets.

Most books that I have browsed through , most not worth buying , and books that are standard "bible" including the DR Ian Billinghurst Give Your Dog a Bone , recommend broccoli as good for a dogs diet. Very far from being biologically , species appropriate.

It is also a question of volume , little bits here or there being an irritant , larger amounts moving into the hazard zone.

Maybe this is where the problem is .

I think that kibble is dried as a convenience for storage and spoilage prevention but should be reconstituted with some moisture whether it be water or bone-broth .

Nothing in nature is that dry .

I have been feeding a raw diet for 28 of my 35 years involvement in dogs -- have not had to deal with bloat .

very sorry , hope that your male is all right. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## msvette2u

I think this is a different 4health food as this seems to be raw or loaf/patties.
dog food

Fresh Frozen
sold in case lots
6 bags to a case
You can mix and match
Chicken or Beef


I understood the OP to be feeding a kibble, not a food that's frozen. 
That said, you might want to ask the person who does the above 4health about the addition of broccoli...

As for the kibble, it compares (ingredient wise) to other diamond products...


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## Konotashi

4Health is a kibble that you can get at Tractor Supply, I believe. 

Very interesting thread. I never thought to think about how much a kibble expands. 

My condolences for your girl, and I hope your boy makes a full recovery soon. That pic of him is so sad.


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## BR870

We ran an experiment last night with 4Health Lamb and Rice, Wellness Lamb Barley and Salmon, and Iams LB Puppy. We measured out equal amoounts of each, and soaked in measured amounts of water.

FWIW, the Wellness expanded the most, with the Iams and 4Health being about the same.

We're gonna run it again tonight to see if we get the same result...


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## Rerun

I'm gonna throw my two cents in here too.

My EPI girl, almost 8 y/o female GSD, has been eating 4 health for probably a year, give or take. She eats the lamb and rice variety if anyone is wondering. Normally I don't get into dog food debates on this board but this one bugged me because since my girl has EPI, she has to have her food soaked in warm water with powdered enzymes twice a day or she can't digest her food (for those unfamiliar with EPI). I've done it this way since she was 3 y/o and diagnosed with EPI.

Now, to get to the point - her 4health food does NOT expand hardly at all. I was curious if this had anything to do w/the enzymes, so I soaked it w/out the enzymes in plently of warm water. To the point where it actually stopped absorbing the water because the kibble was fully absorbed and in a soupy water bowl. I wanted to see if it would continue to absorb water if given plently of water to absorb. It stopped absorbing after a short period of time so I let it sit for awhile to see if it'd conntinue soaking up the water. It didn't. It still didn't hardly expand at all from the orignial size and shape.

So to blame the kibble for the bloat due to massive expanding is questionable to me, but that's JMHO. Dogs all over the world bloat on different foods, being fed different quantities different times a day, before during and after exercise, on elevated, level, or ground level feeding levels. Bloat can be attributed to many different things, but in this case, I certainly wouldn't attribute it to 4health expanding with water because that just hasn't been my experience at all, and I've been soaking various dog kibbles for the last 5 years in water for my EPI dog. So I've seen several brands soaked in water, and this one actually expands the LEAST.


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## GSDkid

vdsauk said:


> fed at an elevated level


I'm no expert but I read somewhere that feeding at an elevated level is more likely to cause bloat.


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## Emoore

GSDkid said:


> I'm no expert but I read somewhere that feeding at an elevated level is more likely to cause bloat.


Yes it is. They used to think elevated bowls helped prevent bloat, but more recent research has shown that it is actually harmful.


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## msvette2u

I agree and I'd want to see the necropsy results before blaming just the food.




Rerun said:


> I'm gonna throw my two cents in here too.
> 
> My EPI girl, almost 8 y/o female GSD, has been eating 4 health for probably a year, give or take. She eats the lamb and rice variety if anyone is wondering. Normally I don't get into dog food debates on this board but this one bugged me because since my girl has EPI, she has to have her food soaked in warm water with powdered enzymes twice a day or she can't digest her food (for those unfamiliar with EPI). I've done it this way since she was 3 y/o and diagnosed with EPI.
> 
> Now, to get to the point - her 4health food does NOT expand hardly at all. I was curious if this had anything to do w/the enzymes, so I soaked it w/out the enzymes in plently of warm water. To the point where it actually stopped absorbing the water because the kibble was fully absorbed and in a soupy water bowl. I wanted to see if it would continue to absorb water if given plently of water to absorb. It stopped absorbing after a short period of time so I let it sit for awhile to see if it'd conntinue soaking up the water. It didn't. It still didn't hardly expand at all from the orignial size and shape.
> 
> So to blame the kibble for the bloat due to massive expanding is questionable to me, but that's JMHO. Dogs all over the world bloat on different foods, being fed different quantities different times a day, before during and after exercise, on elevated, level, or ground level feeding levels. Bloat can be attributed to many different things, but in this case, I certainly wouldn't attribute it to 4health expanding with water because that just hasn't been my experience at all, and I've been soaking various dog kibbles for the last 5 years in water for my EPI dog. So I've seen several brands soaked in water, and this one actually expands the LEAST.


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## ken k

I`m sorry for your loss, bloat research, is just opinions, raised dish, lower dish, 6 years ago i had one die of bloat, I didnt know what it was, after his passing I made it a point to read everything there was on bloat, thought i had it covered, guess what, Max bloated after a nap, it was 12 hours since he ate, I feed him once a day to help prevent bloat, he had no water, no food, no exercise, just woke up and bloated, he is also an EPI dog, which are more prone to bloat, from what my vet surgeon said, it wasn't a question of "if", it was a question of "when" he would bloat, she said his insides were a mess, pretty much everything flipped, she said if I waited another 1/2 hour they wouldn't have been able to save him, i had him in the van and on the way within 15 minutes from him waking up and me figuring he bloated, he was there in plenty of time for the bloat, but almost not for everything else, his colon was already dieing from the lack of blood supply


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## southernfiction

*Thanks!*



Rerun said:


> I'm gonna throw my two cents in here too.
> 
> My EPI girl, almost 8 y/o female GSD, has been eating 4 health for probably a year, give or take. She eats the lamb and rice variety if anyone is wondering. Normally I don't get into dog food debates on this board but this one bugged me because since my girl has EPI, she has to have her food soaked in warm water with powdered enzymes twice a day or she can't digest her food (for those unfamiliar with EPI). I've done it this way since she was 3 y/o and diagnosed with EPI.
> 
> Now, to get to the point - her 4health food does NOT expand hardly at all. I was curious if this had anything to do w/the enzymes, so I soaked it w/out the enzymes in plently of warm water. To the point where it actually stopped absorbing the water because the kibble was fully absorbed and in a soupy water bowl. I wanted to see if it would continue to absorb water if given plently of water to absorb. It stopped absorbing after a short period of time so I let it sit for awhile to see if it'd conntinue soaking up the water. It didn't. It still didn't hardly expand at all from the orignial size and shape.
> 
> So to blame the kibble for the bloat due to massive expanding is questionable to me, but that's JMHO. Dogs all over the world bloat on different foods, being fed different quantities different times a day, before during and after exercise, on elevated, level, or ground level feeding levels. Bloat can be attributed to many different things, but in this case, I certainly wouldn't attribute it to 4health expanding with water because that just hasn't been my experience at all, and I've been soaking various dog kibbles for the last 5 years in water for my EPI dog. So I've seen several brands soaked in water, and this one actually expands the LEAST.


 Thank you for running the experiments. I've fed 4Health for a few months and hoped I wouldn't have to change - again!


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## Packen

The loss is sad but I do not believe that particular food was the root cause. At least there is no evidence of it.


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## Lilie

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I wish a speedy recovery for Monte. 

Over 20 years ago there was a big scare in South Texas regarding Horses who ate dry pellets. Many of those horses suffered colic due to the pellet swelling in their stomachs. Since that time, I've always soaked my kibble. It's just a habit now. None worse for the wear.


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## carmspack

no one concerned about the broccoli content?

at least contact the company and see what the % is .

if you think ingredients in kibble are beautiful plump chickens, think again.

you can look at the horrible unknown side of the egg laying industry.

do you want to know. It is hard to take . But that end result , pureed chicks, is dog food . If you are feeding raw , at least you have the chicken frame in your hand and you know it had something of a life.

broccoli , even if it were good , would not be tight dark green , it would be blown , yellow opened florets , and exuding gases.

broccoli a cruciferous vegetable , even if it weren't for the isothiocyanate , would be gaseous and that is not good .

status and integrity of the oils and fats that they use matter - rancid , recycled greases are difficult to digest .


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## Franksmom

I'm sorry for the OP's loss, but I've been feeding 4 health lamb and rice for almost a year to my 3 dogs, ages 8,5 and 1, with out a problem they've done really well on it and I've never noticed it swelling more then other dry foods when it gets wet. I try to do everything I can do prevent bloat things alot of people have already mentioned, sometimes though I just think it's going to happen no matter how much you try to prevent it.

Carmspack can you tell me where you see the broccoli in the ingredients list I've looked at both the lamb and rice I feed and the Chicken and rice list but I just can't find it. I can see where any veg. such as broccoli or cabbage could be a problem.


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## carmspack

sure Franksmom , here is what I looked at the other night , but am not sure that this is the 4Health dog food being discussed? dog food

Carmen


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## myshepharley

I have been feeding Harley the Lamb & Rice from 4Health maybe 4 months now. He does well on it and seems to like it. I have always fed him from a food stand which his head is bent down some. So which is the better way to feed them? Elevated or not? I have never experienced bloat and I prefer to keep it that way.


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## Germanshepherdlova

lol, I eat hot dogs and feed them to my kids sometimes. 4Health is probably more nutritious than hotdogs! And I am alive and well. I don't think a mid quality kibble is THAT bad.


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## Shaina

I have a question... why is it that some feed once a day to prevent bloat? I always thought with dogs prone to bloat you were supposed to break their feedings into smaller meals (2 or 3 a day) to avoid putting too much food in the stomach too quickly? It seems like bloat is one of those things that has more contradicting answers to the problem than anything else.


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## Debbieg

Shaina said:


> I have a question... why is it that some feed once a day to prevent bloat? I always thought with dogs prone to bloat you were supposed to break their feedings into smaller meals (2 or 3 a day) to avoid putting too much food in the stomach too quickly? It seems like bloat is one of those things that has more contradicting answers to the problem than anything else.


 I wondered this too. We feed twice a day and I put a ball in Benny's bowl to make him eat slower.


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## Samba

There really are no "answers" in bloat. My vet says anything that upsets the dbigestive tract and its processes can possibly trigger bloat. I think he may have something there. Foods, stress, etc affect different dogs differently. So I think that something that disrupts one dog or some dogs, may not do so to another. So what is a contributing or triggering factor for your dog may not be so for your neighbor's and vice versa.


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## carmspack

one study suggests dogs with nervous temperament that eat stressed, eat really quickly have more problems with gastric dilation. They gulp air . Feeding something with a lot of indegistable food , or gas forming , then you have fermentation which is gas producing. 
Dogs with deep chests , more height , but narrow have more problems - think Boxers.


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## Jax08

That would certainly explain why our Boxers can clear a house and cause Hazmat to respond!!!


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## Konotashi

Shaina said:


> I have a question... why is it that some feed once a day to prevent bloat? I always thought with dogs prone to bloat you were supposed to break their feedings into smaller meals (2 or 3 a day) to avoid putting too much food in the stomach too quickly? It seems like bloat is one of those things that has more contradicting answers to the problem than anything else.


I was thinking the same thing....


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## bunchoberrys

Ok. So this got me to thinking. I feed Kane 4Health Performance formula, so I decided to do an experiment. Take or leave it. Decide what you will. I took some Kibble and soaked it in some water. In the pic below I started with a piece of dry kibble (starting from the left) to compare with the progression of the wet kibble. I let the kibble soak in 10 min increments. I even set a timer. After each 10 minutes I took a piece of kibble out, and I chose the biggest piece that was soaked. I timed it for 60 minutes total. To make it fair, I waited an additional 30 minutes after the test to make sure all kibble had there maximum water absorbtion. If you notice, I took the pic in the sunlight which the shadowing enhances the pic of actually how big each piece of kibble is after water absorbtion. Dear Lord am I bored today. lol


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## ken k

Shaina said:


> I have a question... why is it that some feed once a day to prevent bloat? I always thought with dogs prone to bloat you were supposed to break their feedings into smaller meals (2 or 3 a day) to avoid putting too much food in the stomach too quickly? It seems like bloat is one of those things that has more contradicting answers to the problem than anything else.


well, the theory is, they eat late at night, once, then they sleep while the food digests, after max had surgery the vet suggested I go to 2 feedings a day, so as not to tax his system, now that he's all stapled and sutured, I told the surgeon I did everything to prevent bloat, her take on the bloat perevention was, "it's a bunch of whoey", she said no excersice before and after feeding, watch the in take of water, especially after strenus excersize and that's all you can do


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## ChancetheGSD

But what about the dogs who bloat during the night?

I still believe if the dogs going to bloat, it's going to bloat no matter what you do. :/


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## ken k

ChancetheGSD said:


> I still believe if the dogs going to bloat, it's going to bloat no matter what you do. :/



that's the conclusion I came to, all you can do is catch early


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## jang

ok-i know it now--i am the worst gsd mom EVER...when i started reading posts about food i freaked--i was giving sib pedigree (cuz the tv said all the dog show dogs eat pedigree) what's good for the goose -ya know--i mixed that with benefull--dear Lord now i see i am about to kill this dog with cheap food...so i priced out food --fromms etc and found i can't afford it--so i went to iams with beneful thinking i was doing ok--but once again i am doing the wrong thing--when sib was eating the pedigree she was pooping like a freaking cow--twice a day sometimes so that was kind of a red flag for me--anyhow-i have just bought 40 lbs of iams and 14 lbs of beneful--mixed it--and she hates it--who can blame her--she probably knows i'm about to kill her with bloat--I came home today and put water into this food and it blew up to twice it's original size---now wonder she won't eat her am meal---i don't know what to do--i am stressed beyond words--afraid i'm going to come home to a dead dog every day....please someone--tell me about an afforedable dog food for her--she eats 2 cups x 2 times a day--i am over my head--the last time i had a gsd she was just a dog--i never worried about things like this--now i am truly a mess--i love my sibi so much but if i had known more about gsd's i would never have gotten her---too late for hindsite--she is mine and i need to find a way to keep her happy and healthy--well healthy--she's already happy--one more thing -she is sure pooping a lot less--realize it is cuz she's eating less but just an extra worry


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## ChancetheGSD

Jang, don't worry yourself. Plenty of dogs live long, happy and healthy lives eating things like Iams. Don't let the food nazi's have you in a panic at the store crying over what to feed. You could switch to (over priced) Orijen and come home to a dead dog. Food isn't the only factor in bloat. Nobody really knows what causes it. There are cases of dogs bloating on an empty stomach, cases of dogs bloating from drinking a lot of water, even dogs who bloat eating RAW...Switching foods wont prevent bloat.

Finish up the food you already have and in that time, if you feel you want to switch, look up other foods.

I feed Sportmix 24/20 (black bag) and love it! It's $25 for 50lb of food and very popular among hunters for their working dogs. Many will say it's crap but it WORKS for my dogs and it's within my budget. And nobody can convince me that feeding a Diamond product (Which is who makes most the "budget" foods) is better than Sportmix which has never been recalled.


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## Debbieg

Jang: Take a deep breath and relax.  Yopu are not killing Sibi. Many dogs have survived on Pedigree, Eukanuba and Science diet, My parents fed my first GSD ate all Purina kibble and, lived to be 14 and was healthy his whole life. Our vet still recommends the Purina dry foods and does not like me feeding raw.

We do need to feed our dgos as best as we can and it does not have to be too expensive. There are ways to feed healthy using Kibble, homecooked and raw. I feed a mixture of taste of the Wild, Innova and Raw. ( Chicken quarters, beef heart and a raw egg, (shell and all) now and then) 
My husbands Borzoi does better on Costco Kibble which is less expensive. If you do make changes to Sibi's diet do so gradually. 

Here is a link to a site that rated kibble. Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost


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## jang

thanks for much for the reassurance--i am really a mess--one of my employees sez to stay off this forum becasue i am getting too upset--all i want is for my dogs ( i have a chihuahua too...who likes the new mix) to be healthy---but sibi is my heart--sounds stupid but she sure has me hooked...oh my gosh


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## Chicagocanine

jang said:


> please someone--tell me about an afforedable dog food for her--she eats 2 cups x 2 times a day-


Ok here's the thing... If she eats 4 cups a day on beneful/iams there is a good change she won't need to eat that much if you are feeding a higher quality food. I would suggest checking the back of the bag to see how much they say to feed for a dog her size with the food(s) you are feeding now, and then check on the same info for the higher quality foods so you can see the difference. Of course those are just guidelines so your dog won't necessarily eat the amount it says on the bag but it will give an idea of the difference between them. If the amount is less you are actually not paying as much more for the better food as you think, because you are using less food per day which means it will last longer.

If cost is an issue, one way to find out the actual cost is to figure out how much the food you are feeding now costs per day, and compare that to some other foods.
This chart shows an example of this:
The Dog Food Project - Where the Money goes

This explains how to figure out the cost per serving/day:
Buying the Presumably More Expensive Dog Food or Cat Food Can Save You Money



As far as bloat as someone else said dogs can bloat on anything... My 11 year old Golden bloated (with torsion) when she had not eaten yet that day or exercised, was in the house all day, had not drank a lot of water or anything.


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## Konotashi

Jang, check out Kirkland from Costco. I convinced my mom to switch everyone to it, and they have shinier coats and smaller poops. They probably also don't eat as much. (I'm not certain though, because they were free fed, then I got her to feed them once per day). 

A bag of Kirkland costs about the same as a bag of Purina that's the same size.


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## Jessiewessie99

Tanner has a sensetive stomach, so when the Costco was built we went there. My mother was reccommended that Kirkland brand, because it was good and a we got a good price. This food is easy on Tanner's stomach, and his poop isn't bad and neither dog has had problems since we switched.


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## jang

well here's the deal--she ate that much (4 cps dailey) with the old food--at this point in time she is barely eating 3 cups of the new mix--whether is dislike or she is satisfied with less-i don't know


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## jang

i am so sorry-please forgive me --that thru this all i have falided to express my sympathy to OP for their loss--it is thru these really horrific experiences that we all learn--please accept my sincere sympathy for your loss ---


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## msvette2u

You were looking at a different page, I mentioned this quite a few posts back. Different foods, completely.




carmspack said:


> no one concerned about the broccoli content?
> 
> at least contact the company and see what the % is .
> 
> if you think ingredients in kibble are beautiful plump chickens, think again.
> 
> you can look at the horrible unknown side of the egg laying industry.
> 
> do you want to know. It is hard to take . But that end result , pureed chicks, is dog food . If you are feeding raw , at least you have the chicken frame in your hand and you know it had something of a life.
> 
> broccoli , even if it were good , would not be tight dark green , it would be blown , yellow opened florets , and exuding gases.
> 
> broccoli a cruciferous vegetable , even if it weren't for the isothiocyanate , would be gaseous and that is not good .
> 
> status and integrity of the oils and fats that they use matter - rancid , recycled greases are difficult to digest .


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## msvette2u

Konotashi said:


> Jang, check out Kirkland from Costco. I convinced my mom to switch everyone to it, and they have shinier coats and smaller poops. They probably also don't eat as much. (I'm not certain though, because they were free fed, then I got her to feed them once per day).
> 
> A bag of Kirkland costs about the same as a bag of Purina that's the same size.


For $26. (now) per 40lb. of Kirkland which has no corn, no "meat meal", and no by-products, I tend to agree. 
You can't tell me a dog (carnivore primarily) can derive nutrition out of corn that he could out of actual real chicken.


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## Acesmom

*4Health dog food*

When we adopted our German Shepard, he smelled terible, had started developing severe skin rashes, and had terrible gas. We put him on 4Health and he is amazing now!! He looks beautiful and has never had a problem. We also have a Siberian Husky and a ****shu/yorkie mix. We started using corn free food because our little dog has allergies to corn. I am so very sorry about the loss of any animal, but to blame it on the food without really knowing the absolute cause of the dogs death is really unfair to 4Health, as I have had nothing but good results. (Of course all dogs are different and ANY dog can have a negative reaction to something on any given day.) I switched from Nutro to 4Health because it was a better buy, Nutro is a great product as well.


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## selzer

Ok, I understand the figure out how much the food expands in water, but isn't it gas that causes bloating. Maybe we should try putting the food in a ziplock bag, adding some water or better some closer equivalent to stomach acids, and then zip the bag shut and see if there is any way we could measure the air pressure. 

Ok, so I don't have a working lab with a bunsen burner and a pressurized temperature chamber, but it seems like we should be measuring how much gas is released from the food, not just the volume as dry hard kibble turns into soft wet kibble.


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## Emoore

Selzer, this is another ancient thread bump from a newb. If you want to resurrect it and talk about it more that's cool, but I wanted to make sure you knew this is an old thread.


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## selzer

I know it was an old thread. I use 4-Health, and as someone found it and posted on it, I thought I would chime in. It is not all that ancient, just end of last year I think. I just thought it would be interesting to put kibble in a plastic bag, wet it down, zip it up and see what happens.


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## Emoore

selzer said:


> I know it was an old thread. I use 4-Health, and as someone found it and posted on it, I thought I would chime in. It is not all that ancient, just end of last year I think. I just thought it would be interesting to put kibble in a plastic bag, wet it down, zip it up and see what happens.


Oh ok cool.

I think your idea of adding something similar to the stomach environment is a good one. I just don't think water gives us enough information. People try the same thing with vitamins, but water and stomach acid are such different substances that I don't think the water gives us any idea of what's actually happening in the stomach. If anything it gives us false ideas.


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## selzer

Unfortunately, I do not have a clue how to acquire/mix something similar to what happens in the digestive process. Maybe some mad scientist who has a good laboratory in their basement could do some experiments, LOL. 

My feeling is that if you dehydrate the meat, and the other ingredients to make a kibble that is calorie dense, and then add water to it, it is probably going to grow a bit. I am really interested at the gasses that are released in the process.

I recently weaned a litter on 4Health, and to do this, I normally pour water in the kibble in the puppy dish and wait for it to be moist. I did not notice the food growing any more than Kumpi, Canidae, or Nutro.


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## nharr2

*4 Health*

It always saddens me to hear of anyone losing a four legged friend. I have experienced losses myself and they are never easy. I debated even posting my reply but I feel its necessary due to the many recommendations I give for 4health. I disagree with the accusations in this article. We feed 4health to English Mastiffs and when we transition their puppies from soft food to hard food I soak the food for an hour to ensure the puppies wont choke. After 1 hour, the food is basically falling apart from soaking and certainly never got 4-5 times the size it started at. Yes, I know this is an old threat but when googled it comes up as the 4th or 5th link so I felt the need to share my information.


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## DollBaby

So sorry for your loss. I fed 4 Health for a while. My girl didn't do so well on it weight wise, but that was the only physical problem with it I had


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## ronkado

How does Science dog food compare to 4-health?


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