# Why you need to chose a trainer carefully



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Just throwing this out there, get a discussion going, as there have been a few threads recently advising people to go to a trainer for aggression and reactivity issues. I think finding a good trainer, can be a challenge, and here is one example why: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc1tszg8pQ8


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That video was impressive.I'm wondering how effective that method would be with a dog that is fearful because of genetics as opposed to being feral but otherwise of sound temperament?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You realize that guy is an idiot right?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He has an idea of what is going on from the behavior standpoint but his methodology is laughably dangerous, inefficient, and he's missing huge pieces of knowledge that would have allowed him to get faster results without getting nailed a bunch of times and the dog would have turned out the same if not better.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I guess he doesn't believe in using muzzles.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are better ways without using muzzles that still don't result in a bite.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes,there are better and faster ways.The end result was good,as was the disclaimer at the beginning


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, what Bailiff said, was my point. There's a lot of bluff and talk, but trainers who know their stuff are not getting bitten, in fact he seems to almost enjoy getting bitten, which I find disturbing.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think the biting is a ploy to get lots of views.I suppose there are people dumb enough to try that with a seriously dangerous biter.
I rescued a young feral dog years ago and got her over her trust issues in a similar way without the biting though.I would sit close to her and all of her water and meals came from my hands.She was my best bud in three days,and in another two weeks was fine with anybody.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, you may be right, Dogma, but it's pretty unethical, in my opinion, to do something like this for the views. I agree a strategy like you described using can work well with a feral-fearful dog. Without the biting. 

I just worry when someone has just enough knowledge and a bit of experience to sound good- it can pull the wool over the eyes of many dog owners but be really dangerous. Mostly for the dogs. 

I think trainers who go out there and say they can handle aggressive cases can be really dangerous- if they don't fully understand what they are doing. At least most "purely positive" trainers would just admit an aggressive dog is over their heads, which is better than messing around with a situation beyond their expertise and causing possibly serious harm. 

It's really hard for dog owners with the best intentions to wade through all the bad trainers to find a good one. It helps to read a few books and get a basic understanding of how dogs learn and how to teach them, but many dog owners don't take the time, so they just listen to what a trainer says, especially when they are a bit desperate with an aggressive dog, and the trainer is pushy and feeds their fears.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This guy says it better than I could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PjqzR740I


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Muskeg,I totally agree with you.You are thinking in much broader terms than I was.You're trying to get across how to avoid bad training methods and access what your dog needs and will respond to.And I'm just taking away from the video the useful aspects and ignoring the rest.
Unless someone does a lot of research and delves into how dogs think and respond,it's just a crap shoot finding a decent trainer.If you could talk to former clients of theirs it would help make a more informed decision.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs that learn how to do a behavior that they find reinforcing such as fighting always need to be watched. Truthfully all dogs need to be managed in such a way. You can take two dogs that got along great for 8 years that for some reason or another kick off and have a fight. It needs to always be managed for safety because of the nature of the animal. So yeah he is right in that you always need to watch and manage behaviors like that. There is no guarantee a dog can go on its own without input from the owner or trainer or whatever and make the right choices all the time and not just for dogs that needed "rehabilitation" but for all dogs period.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> This guy says it better than I could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PjqzR740I


Yes!An example the comes to mind is Jeff Gelman's videos.The dogs look very uneasy for the most part,they are managed but not truly rehabilitated. 
There are some dogs that will have to be managed their entire lives and a good trainer should know that and be straightforward about it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes- Dogma, exactly. Thanks. I am speaking broader terms, the video was one example. 

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, partly because of the threads here where people have gone to three trainers or more and really tried to find help with their dog. Or comments from owners that go through two or three trainers before landing on one who knows what they are doing. It's a huge waste of time and money and many people give up. 

We expect a certain level of excellence from our kid's teachers- I realize the quality can vary but a bad teacher who is getting poor results will be fired generally. And teachers need a degree, are interviewed by other educators to test their knowledge and screened carefully before being hired by the school district. 

Contrast to a dog trainer, who can do whatever he wants and talk pseudoscience all day. It's not completely fair to expect a dog owner to know enough to choose a good dog trainer. We just send our kids off to public school, maybe do a bit of research on the school district and test results, but most parents don't research educational theory before sending their kids off to kindergarten. Some do, most don't. And, of course kids and dogs are two different things, just trying to find a decent comparison. 

I wish there was some sort of regulation out there, or at least a better way for a dog owner to find the trainer they need. 

I know enough to know what I don't know. I'm not an expert, I haven't worked enough dogs. I do understand the basics and know what clearly won't work. 

But plenty of dog owners are doing their very best and just looking for some guidance and then end up with the worst advice. That infuriates me. In many cases I think either the trainer is willfully ignorant or purposefully deceiving people and then playing on their emotions. It's cruel. 

Sorry for the rant, but there have been so many threads recently about adolescent and young dogs ending up euthanized or unknown (OP never follows-up) and usually the owners have really tried to find hands on help. And usually the trainer failed them. 

There are excellent, skilled trainers out there. I just wish owners could have an easier time sorting the "wheat" from the "chaff".


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh, and I don't want to put all the burden on the trainer here when it comes to working with a dog. Clearly, the owner needs to be willing to listen, learn, train, manage (to whatever degree needed) and follow-through. 

But a trainer should at least be able to give the tools and hands-on advice to get them started and offer input through the process.


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