# your opinion halter or prong?



## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

In your opinion which would work better for a dog that likes to pull a lot during walks, a prong coller or a halti coller I think thats what there called the kind that go over there face? Right now I am using a no pull harness with her but she can really pull me with it so I need to get something different.

Thanks 
Davida


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I like a prong collar)


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Try reading or watching the DVD "My Dog Pulls: What Do I Do?" by Turid Rugaas. You can get some ideas how to train your dog not to pull. I understand for a powerful dog, you may not be able to hold him and will need a back-up, but you can learn a lot from her book and practice the technique - it really helps in the recall, because the dog learns to look back at you. I'm lucky to be able to walk my dog off leash in state park/dam area but I use an e-collar as a back-up. My Dobe pulled a lot - I did try the head halter - she just kept pulling but turned her head. The problem dogs have with the head halter is that it prevents them from using their "dog body language", Turid Rugaas also goes into that in her book.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well i gotta say i have used both on ryder, who pulls like a freight train, when he can't get to HIS kids...And overall i gotta go with the prong...He does good on the halti as well but when he decides he is going to pull absolutely nothing stops him. 
I recommend it by far..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

While I am not a fan of either and own The Joy Express, I would definitely choose the prong over the halti. 

Dog's tolerate the prong collar very well and it is somewhat self-correcting, and if all the propaganda is true, one would have to be very extreme to seriously abuse the dog with it.

The Halti on the other hand is neither safe nor well tolerated. Dogs generally go through a minor caniption fit trying to get the thing on. They literally cannot pull you with their head, however, a frustrated jerk on the thing could conceivably throw your dog's neck out of alignment. (Never actually heard of that happening though to be fair.) I believe it is unsafe because a determined dog CAN slip even a tightly fitted halti. They have this tiny nylon strip that they have you clip to your flat collar. 

I am sorry, but I would not trust my Freight Train to that tiny piece of nylon in the event that she pulled free of the head collar. 

They are also unsightly, and people will remark that the dog is a bad dog, it has a muzzle on. While the head collar gives you control over the head and might prevent a bite if you are watching and move properly and quickly, it is NOT a muzzle. I think for socialization it can prevent some people from being willing to come up and pet your dog. 

I never have a short or neutral opinion about anything.


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## chevysmom (Feb 15, 2008)

Prong. We tried a halti-type with Chevy and he really didn't like it and I honestly did not like it on him.


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone. She walks really good when its just me and her, but when I add my husband, kids and our new pup legend, she gets really hard to walk and if the kids get in front of us she almost pulls me over to get to them, she like a totally differant dog. : )


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I LOVE my prong. She's a different dog on it. You put her on a flat collar or choker and she pulls like mad. Prong, nothing... I've never used one before her, but I would never hesitate to use one again on a different dog if they needed it. 

I got a medium size and she wear's it high on her neck. I got 6 rings in it, and the last one was just added last week. She's 7 mos and 54lbs.


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## MAKSIM (Apr 9, 2010)

FuryanGoddess said:


> I LOVE my prong. She's a different dog on it. You put her on a flat collar or choker and she pulls like mad. Prong, nothing... I've never used one before her, but I would never hesitate to use one again on a different dog if they needed it.
> 
> I got a medium size and she wear's it high on her neck. I got 6 rings in it, and the last one was just added last week. She's 7 mos and 54lbs.


Couldn't agree more. The only thing I could change here is all the she's to he's, age (16.5mo) & weight (75lb.).

One of the first things I did after I got home with the prong was try it on myself, first on my arm then my neck. Discomfort... yes, pain... not so much, the discomfort starts way before you get to pain & correction don't need to go that far..


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## Andy-jr. (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree, go with the prong. I am in the same boat as you, when I walk the dog he is fine but when the kids are with me he has to be with them up front.


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## tafoster2001 (May 10, 2010)

prong all the way i can literally walk my male with one finger... he respects it a lot more. one year 78 lbs


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## Kaidsmom (Oct 12, 2009)

I agree, I love the versatility of a prong you can control the amount of correction used. Plus in my opinion a dog learns on a prong when it is used as a training tool as opposed to a halti that prevents a behavior.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Never tried a halti, but the prong works great if used correctly.

Make sure you put it on correctly though. I see so many people using prong collars and not even have them on right. Here's a link.

How to fit a Prong Collar

How old is your dog by the way? I wouldn't even consider using a prong before 6 months.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The nose/muzzle is such a sensitive area, and I don't like hindering the dog because I am putting pressure there. 
I'd rather use a front clip harness if a prong wasn't available.
Prong is my choice of the two listed~ my dogs choice as well. The Gentle Leader was hated by Onyx, where a prong was no big deal.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I strongly prefer the head collar or Halti, if a no pull harness does not work. I do not care for prong collars. I have used them in the past (previous dogs) but won't anymore.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

teach your dog to heel. 


veeds35 said:


> In your opinion which would work better for a dog that likes to pull a lot during walks, a prong coller or a halti coller I think thats what there called the kind that go over there face? Right now I am using a no pull harness with her but she can really pull me with it so I need to get something different.
> 
> Thanks
> Davida


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

Lucy she is almost 1.5 years old.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> teach your dog to heel.


What about when a 120 pound woman is walking an 85 pound shepherd and a lose dog or a squirrel or something that catches your dogs attention runs by? 

Is the heel command safe enough to control a one year old pup who weighs almost as much as you do and wants to play or is reactive?

Not saying this applies to me, but i'm sure it applies to plenty of people out there.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

veeds35 said:


> Lucy she is almost 1.5 years old.


Then a prong is safe to try out. Had to ask.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lucy dog, I know a seventy something woman who manages 90 pound stud dogs when bitches are in heat without prong collars. 

I really think that if someone cannot control a dog without a training collar than the dog is not safe with that person. So your 120 pound woman needs to train her 85 pound dog with distractions and not rely on a prong collar. And yes, I live in NE Ohio where there is ice and snow and the whole nine yards. 

The thing is collars break or come open, and if the dog is not going to listen to you when he is on lead because of a squirrel or dog, your dog does not have much of a prayer in the event that an equipment failure happens. We should not have to rely on these collars. 

This dog is a youngster. Chances are he will settle down and be easier to walk. Using a training collar short term to train a behavior is ok, but if the dog recognizes what collar he has on and pulls like crazy when there is not a prong collar and walks nicely when there is, it will be all the harder to train him to walk nicely reguardless.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Every dog is different, but a prong properly fit, can be a very good tool.

Know how to fit it and how to use it.

And yes it's ok. You should see my two dance around when they hear the ching, ching of the collar. Means fun long walk.


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks again everyone, and yes she still is a work in progress and thank goodness she isnt 85lbs shes probley around 65 lbs but still very strong and she does listen when I tell her leave it when there are other dogs ect., shes not out of control crazy or anything like that she just gets overly excited when the kids are with me, its like she wants to herd them. And I would like to make the walks with my family as enjoyable as they are when it is just her and I. Maybe if I try getting some of her energy out in the yard first and then the walk after that.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> Lucy dog, I know a seventy something woman who manages 90 pound stud dogs when bitches are in heat without prong collars.
> 
> I really think that if someone cannot control a dog without a training collar than the dog is not safe with that person. So your 120 pound woman needs to train her 85 pound dog with distractions and not rely on a prong collar. And yes, I live in NE Ohio where there is ice and snow and the whole nine yards.
> 
> ...


In a perfect world, yes, you're right. Everyone would have a dog who obeys their master fully and there would be complete control, but I think we all know that is not the case. In reality, that's hardly ever the case.

Some people rely on things like a training collar. The example I gave of a smaller woman controlling a bigger dog was just a hypothetical example. I wasn't referring to anyone specific, but I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that the example fits.

I agree with you and i think a dog should be able to be control and walked nicely without a prong, but I think that's not the case way more than it is. When it's not the case and someone doesn't have complete control over their dog, I think a prong is a very valuable tool.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

A prong, or even a regular choker collar, can work great for correcting pulling, provided that the correction is a sharp one. With the choker collar, a two-handed pop-correction can be given, then walk the other direction and lightly praise when the dog comes with you. If he charges past you and pulls, two-handed pop, turn and walk the other direction. Within a few minutes he should get the idea.

With a prong collar you may want to do the same thing, by walking in the other direction. I think that walking the other way can communicate to the dog that he needs to know where you are and that he must go where you go. In the mind of a dog, I think if the dog believed that, it would be better than just if the dog knew that any leash tension would result in a correction. I'm not saying a simple correction for leash tension wont work, just saying the dog might get the idea quicker if it is accompanied by walking in the other direction, since there is a real purpose there.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

veeds35 said:


> Thanks everyone. She walks really good when its just me and her, but when I add my husband, kids and our new pup legend, she gets really hard to walk and if the kids get in front of us she almost pulls me over to get to them, she like a totally differant dog. : )


 
Did anybody suggest training the dog to walk at your side?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> Did anybody suggest training the dog to walk at your side?


Yes


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yes


 
Seems to be the way to go eventually.


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Did anybody suggest training the dog to walk at your side?


 
That is why I am saying she is a work in progress and hopefully we will progress to the stage where she will do that at all times not when it is just her and I. But yes that is what I am trying to teach her to do and she does very well when its her and I. Just as I think we all are, in the 35 yrs Ive been alive I still make mistakes and am not perfect, and I dont expect my dog to be perfect either thats just not possible, but would like to find a tool to help get to the goal for our family walks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

veeds35 said:


> That is why I am saying she is a work in progress and hopefully we will progress to the stage where she will do that at all times not when it is just her and I. But yes that is what I am trying to teach her to do and she does very well when its her and I. Just as I think we all are, in the 35 yrs Ive been alive I still make mistakes and am not perfect, and I dont expect my dog to be perfect either thats just not possible, but would like to find a tool to help get to the goal for our family walks.


I agree with everything you just said. Give the prong a shot. Just keep doing your research to make sure you're using it and fitting it correctly. If you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Canine Concepts Non-Pull Mesh Harness

Cost me $19.99 at Petco

Works great! I was very shocked and amazed when I used it on my 14 month old male GSD. I love this thing!


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

I like prongs. It takes no effort at all. Some people think is cruel, any tool can be mis-used. I give Josie little to no corrections at all, i never have find myself yanking her on her prong. I'm a little person too so i need to use it or that 70 pound dog is going to drag me into the bushes! LOL. 

She has gotten better with her leash walking though so i've been trying to ween her off of it. She's not allowed to wear prongs in the CGC class, so we're working on it .

I don't like head halters because it causes spinal injuries


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

I am curious. The trainers I have spoken to recommend the head halter and I have not heard of injuries from it. We use it and have not tried the prong. I guess I bought into the hype of it being cruel. I have seen some with plastic tips on the prongs. do any of you use those? I want to move to a flat collar at some point. Yesterday, Lizzie walked with my husband for about half a mile on a very loose leash (AFTER rigorous exercise so I know she was tired). It was so lovely and relaxed and that is what I want.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

dianefbarfield said:


> I am curious. The trainers I have spoken to recommend the head halter and I have not heard of injuries from it. We use it and have not tried the prong. I guess I bought into the hype of it being cruel. I have seen some with plastic tips on the prongs. do any of you use those? I want to move to a flat collar at some point. Yesterday, Lizzie walked with my husband for about half a mile on a very loose leash (AFTER rigorous exercise so I know she was tired). It was so lovely and relaxed and that is what I want.



Seems like each trainers are different, mine are against the head halters and chokers, in fact we're not allowed to use those two tools in class. They high recommended prongs the first day we enroll the class. The little dogs wear martingales. My trainer would explain how there was a study on dogs that have passed away that have used chokers, head halters and prongs. There was damage done by chokers and head halters and no damage by prongs. I too thought Prongs were evil and they did look scary, i put my arm through and gave a good pull, there was no pain at all. 

I would recommend using the Herm sprenger Chrome prong collars. The other brand snaps open pretty easily, but i always use a back up collar anyway but never had problems with the herm sprenger popping open. I bought mine from Leerburg, Here's what the brand looks like to give you an idea, It's alittle pricey but worth it i think Leerburg | Prong Collars and Fur Saver Collars


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

thank you. I will go look at the prong collars.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

The harness I use on Sinister has padding under the armpits so it doesn't rub


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I prefer the prong. It's only uncomfortable when they pull. The head halters are always uncomfortable.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

This is what the Canine Concepts Mesh Harness looks like this with padding under the armpits


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

I tried that exact harness. Lizzie took off like a rocket and i felt like I had no control. The lead attaches at her shoulders which doesn't help me teach her to stay back beside me. I know we all have to find what works best for us. i was so excited about the harness when I brought it home but I took it back. Thanks for all of the advice from everyone.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

If you go prong, spend the money and get the ones from Herm Springer. The cheap ones they sell at pet stores are often cut very bluntly and can be a little sharp. The ones from HS are all rounded much more nicely. 

My dogs all wear prong collars and are not the least bit bothered by them, from Day 1. Not a one likes a head collar and if I was going to use it I'd have to spend time acclimating them to wearing it. Prong collars aren't great for every situation, but I like them for cases of pulling.


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

LaRen, that is actually the same harness I have for her now which works great when its just me and her but with the kids she really pulls. I think she feels like shes gotto be right beside my girls when we are home she has to be everywhere they are if they close themselves in there room she will lay outside there door till they come out. Its actually very cute


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

veeds35 said:


> LaRen, that is actually the same harness I have for her now which works great when its just me and her but with the kids she really pulls. I think she feels like shes gotto be right beside my girls when we are home she has to be everywhere they are if they close themselves in there room she will lay outside there door till they come out. Its actually very cute


Sinister is a huge puller! I hated taking him for a walk, I would get home and my arms and back would be killing me. I dont know if it's the way the harness feels to him or if it really stops him from pulling but he loves the harness! He sits still and lets me put it on him and I can walk him around with one finger in the little loop area that you clamp the leash onto. He behaves so well on it, it's like I have a different dog. I love taking him for walks on it. Everytime we leave the house I put his harness on even if I am going to let him run free.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I used to use the metal prong but found this & use it on my girl Kiya.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog walks fine when it is only you. 

Can we for a bit look at how we can get the dog to walk fine with the distractions of having the troop along? I mean, is it better to train with distractions, say just one child along with, and retrain until he walks well with you and one kid, and then increase it? 

One of the things someone said kind of gets me and that is that the prong collar takes no effort at all. Magic solutions are not always the best bet. We do like to refer to it as power steering. It just seems that there has to be a better way to get a puppy to stop pulling. 

When you walk alone, you can easily stop or change directions when the dog is pulling and the dog realizes that he must take direction from you and not pull. It takes longer than popping him with a prong collar, but can certainly be trained with a flat collar or martingale. But when you walk with a group, the dog seems to be focussed on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. 

And frankly, I would think that the person on the other end of the lead would have to be a bit more distracted as well. Otherwise, I would have that person take a toy along and squeeze it when the dog's attention seems to be not where they want it. 

Maybe there are other techniques to improve the dog's focus while in a group. I do not have a group, so I would not know. 

as for jerking a choker or a prong with two hands, I am sorry, but that is a good way to injure your dog, and I will not just let that piece of advice to pass.

Our training classes allow any collars, but head collars and harnesses. They encourage prong collars. But will also mention chokers and martingales etc, and allow any of them. I have never seen an e-collar there. The going attitude is that the martingale will keep the dog from slipping the collar but will not prevent pulling, and a choke chain can cause damage to the larnyx, while the prong collar is less likely to cause an injury.

I have a 9 month old, 53 pound freight train right now. It is getting better and we will continue with the martingale.

I am surprised that people really believe that the majority of dogs cannot be managed without training collars. I have carpul tunnel in both wrists and drop things. I drop leashes. If my dogs could not be trusted to come back to me by my voice alone, then they would probably be dead dogs.

Which brings us back to training. I know that straight obedience does not allow for talking to the dog, but in training for heeling we provide lots of feedback and try to use our voices, keep the leash loose, and NOT jerk on the it as much as possible. Is this the type of training that others are doing?


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

Yeah today I tried something different when we walked her I put the leash in one hand then put it behind my back and had her on the other side and that really seemed to help. And I am also kindof leary of the prong coller just because of the way I have seen my nieghbor use it on his dog,(which is not the way I would use it if I chose to) but the leash behind the back trick seemed to help quite a bit. And yes I am also more distracted when we add the whole group.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I have been trying Lakoda off leash in the trails, while walking Apache & Kiya, my 2 older dogs. They both used to go on trails with me and my horse. There were places they had to be on leash. I had to have them along side or on a skinny trail they had to walk ahead of me & my horse. So when it came time for "heel" it wasn't always easy but they learned the difference. Doing circles helped me get them both to heel, specially to the left. Both can be walked in their plain collars, but Kiya is better with her plastic prong. Lakoda, the baby is pretty good off leash. At first she would be running all over the place when she was loose. My trainer wants me to teach her to "follow" by giving treats when she is in the correct position, which is along side, slightly behind me. When I call her and she passes me, she gets nothing. I feel like a walking treat dispenser, but it works. Then when it's time to get back on the leash, she pulls. I haven't tried the treats while on leash, but I think I might try it to keep her in the "follow" mode while on leash. If I take her by herself she's better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think prong collars are better for dogs that do not tend to be soft. Soft dogs can usually be trained with positive methods a little easier, while methods where there is pain or physical correction, or discomfort can increase their cautiousness. Of all the training collars that I have seen used though, the prong would probably be the least troublesome. 

The only thing I do not really like about the plastic collar above is the lack of a chain. A sensitive dog will hear the chain and adjust before being pinched. With no chain that aspect isn't there.


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## goatdude (Mar 3, 2009)

I've used a choke, HS prong and the Gentle Leader. Of the three the choke provided me with the least control, almost like using a flat collar. The GL and prong, if used correctly I found, worked equally well and won't injure the animal. Every dog will be a little different and it all depends on individual temperament, training, age ,etc. but in the end you'll just have to try on your OWN dog and discover what works and what does not. They all have their place and all can be effective in training. The goal with any of these devices would be to get your dog trained so you no longer have to rely on them and be able to have total control (off leash).


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Echo walks best with her prong collar. When she is doing therapy visits, though, she has to wear a flat buckle collar (we don't want any inquisitive fingers to get pinched in a chain or prong collar!). This takes some "reminder" training in the parking lot before most visits <grin>.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

by the time my dog was 1 yrs. old
he didn't chase after things. it's all in the
training and socializing.

i spend a lot of time in the woods with my dog.
we encounter deer, squrriels, ducks, geese, horses,
dogs, joggers, walkers, etc. my dog is rarely
on a leash. i made sure at a young age
my dog was exposed to all of these things.

i didn't want a reactive dog. i took my dog around the aboved
mentioned daily. he learned (was taught) how to behave.

if a 120 lb. woman is walking a 85 lb. Shep she should
of taken the time to train and socialize her dog.

i think a reactive dog in most cases hasn't be trained
to act other wise.



Lucy Dog said:


> What about when a 120 pound woman is walking an 85 pound shepherd and a lose dog or a squirrel or something that catches your dogs attention runs by?
> 
> Is the heel command safe enough to control a one year old pup who weighs almost as much as you do and wants to play or is reactive?
> 
> Not saying this applies to me, but i'm sure it applies to plenty of people out there.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

that's one of the methods i used in teaching my dog
to heel.

i also taught my dog "other side" usuing this method.
my dog is on my left. i holding the leash in my right
hand with the leash going behind to my dog. i would
say "other side" and guide my dog to the right side.

when my dog was on my right side i held the leash with my 
left hand with the leash going behind my back. when i wanted
my dog to move to my left side i would say "other
side" and guide my dog to the left side.

now my dog moves to the opposit side (on leash or off)
with a "other side". "other side" works when we're
on a trail and a horse is approaching. my dog can be ahead
of me (off leash) and if i say "other side" he moves
to the other side of the trail.


veeds35 said:


> Yeah today I tried something different when we walked her I put the leash in one hand then put it behind my back and had her on the other side and that really seemed to help. And I am also kindof leary of the prong coller just because of the way I have seen my nieghbor use it on his dog,(which is not the way I would use it if I chose to) but the leash behind the back trick seemed to help quite a bit. And yes I am also more distracted when we add the whole group.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

I'm still using the sensation harness. It works like a charm. Jiva walked nicely on a loose leash & choke chain 95% of the time. But if she decided to meet the dog that was down the block, all bets were off. The sensation has been a fantastic solution. She hated the halti, and chewed up 2 versions of it. Plus everyone thinks it's a muzzle and I hated that.
The goal is flat collar heeling. The sensation has helped teach her what I want from her when we walk. 
I used a prong years ago with my Rotti. She was an untrained adult rescue and it gave me some control over a dog nearly my weight. I switched to a halti, which worked even better with her. And it had the added benefit that I could close her mouth just when she spotted the chicken bones. At some point I switched to a collar with no problems. Once she understood she was gold. 
My experience is that the prong is good for most dogs, some will still tolerate the discomfort to pull. The halti works very well but few dogs like wearing it and people will think you have a muzzled vicious beast. The sensation is my favorite of the 3 options. Mind you, the dog can still pull some, but you can control it. I no longer worry that the lead will be yanked right from my grip. 
I'm giving the sensation harness a few more months, then trying a regular collar. If any circumstance causes her to pull, I'll go right back to the sensation for a few more months.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> by the time my dog was 1 yrs. old he didn't chase after things. it's all in the training and socializing.
> 
> *And an awful lot in the dog itself and its temperament and personality!*
> 
> ...


*So you figure that there are no reactive dogs, just poorly trained ones?*


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm sure there's reactive dogs. i'm sure training helps. 


codmaster said:


> *So you figure that there are no reactive dogs, just poorly trained ones?*


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i can walk my dog with a collar or no collar.
he heels. he's not reactive. he weighs 88 lbs.



tafoster2001 said:


> prong all the way i can literally walk my male with one finger... he respects it a lot more. one year 78 lbs


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

Thank you all for your opinions, I have obediance class today so I am planning on talking to my trainer to help figure out some solutions also.


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## celiamarie (Feb 18, 2006)

zyppi said:


> And yes it's ok. You should see my two dance around when they hear the ching, ching of the collar. Means fun long walk.


OMG yes.. Max used to do the same thing when I brought out his prong collar!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

doggiedad said:


> i can walk my dog with a collar or no collar.
> he heels. he's not reactive. he weighs 88 lbs.


Good for you, the word REACTIVE is key. 
Some dogs have issues and need more control from the owner. 
IMO, sometimes a prong will ramp up a reactive dog, so isn't the right collar-but what works for one may not work for all situations, so we are fortunate to have options. 
My pup who is 90# can be walked with just a flat and I have control because he is not a reactive dog, but my female who is 90# is reactive. I want to have control, and a flat would not give me that when she would be going off on another dog(we are past that,but just as an example).


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## hope1970 (Jun 7, 2010)

I am a prong user. I use to think that is was "inhumane" until I was educated on how to properly use one. Actually I have to agree that it is somewhat self-correcting. My 5 1/2 mo. old male doesn't mind it all. When he see's the prong collar he gets excited cause he knows we're gonna have fun. These are strong dogs, choke collars can and will harm their esophagus if they pull extremely hard on those types of training collars. Research, and draw your own conclusion. What ever works for your dog.


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## Namara (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm personally a firm believer that certain tools work for certain people and dogs, and there are some that don't. And every training tool out there has a proper use and can be misused and cause harm.

I went for a Halti when my dog, Tazer, got too strong for me. The choke collars and his flat collar didn't faze him at all, so I thought that his neck was becoming desensitized. And, to its credit, he doesn't all-out pull using the head harness - there is tension, but not really a pull. I wouldn't have been able to walk my dog for the last few months without it.

However, he hates the thing. Quite possibly my own fault for not introducing it to him properly, but I don't know. It takes me a full 10-15 minutes to put it on him because he puts up a fight, then he periodically will rub his face against my leg or the ground to try to get it off. And sometimes he's successful - which results in another long fight to put it back on. Not to mention that the bit of tension on the Halti is enough to pull the nose strap up right next to his eyes, which I can't seem to figure out how to fit it so it won't do that (plus the straps slip easily, so it wouldn't stay, anyway).

I never trusted the "safety strap" as a fail safe for it slipping off and have always used a double leash with it. I have one of those multi-function leashes with a clip at each end, so one end is on the Halti and the other on his collar. 

I do like the premise of the head harnesses, but I don't think it's the best match for my dog. So I've ordered a Herm Sprenger prong collar and we'll give that a shot (I got a small with some extra links, so I hope that works so I don't have to exchange for a medium).

Oh, by the way: every person I've ever encountered thought the Halti was a muzzle and would freak out, which would amp up my dog and not help the image. That is annoying. *rolls eyes*

Edit: Also wanted to mention that in a perfect world, all of our dogs would heel and we wouldn't need these, but alas, they don't - and we do need to be able to control them on the walks to be able to drain their energy so our training is more effective (training including how to heel).


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## shilorio (Mar 21, 2010)

ive never used the prong? i use the halter but as soon as i take it off 'ZOOOM!!' she tugs like craazyy!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

shilorio said:


> ive never used the prong? i use the halter but as soon as i take it off 'ZOOOM!!' she tugs like craazyy!!


That makes perfect sense because the halter is not a "training" tool just a device that limits the dog while he has it on. i.e. a short term solution while the dog is trained (with a prong perhaps) to walk on a loose lead.


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

Herm Sprenger works best for us.


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## lixy (Mar 14, 2007)

I've used both a head collar and a prong. Both work, but I (as well as my dog) prefer the prong.



doggiedad said:


> if a 120 lb. woman is walking a 85 lb. Shep she should
> of taken the time to train and socialize her dog.


I'm a 120 lb woman walking a 115 lb dog, so if he decides to bolt after a squirrel, I'm pretty sure I'm going along for the ride. 99% of the time he walks beautifully at my side, but he's not a ROBOT--he does make mistakes. So I use a prong collar.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For the OP, if you must use the prong, use it only in the situation for which this post was written, the group walk. If he walks fine without, you do not want to lose that. 

I am a firm believer that ALL collars and training tools can be abused. If you hang a dog up on a choke chain until it loses conciousness (as used to be some training techniques) it WILL most likely damage the esaphagus or larnyx. I and many others have used them for years and years without every a problem.

If you hang a dog in a prong collar up by it until it loses conciousness, my guess is that it could be hurt as well. 

The thing about the prong is that normally, you do not have to use extraordinary force to get the dog to do what you want him to do. A 115 pound woman CAN put one on a 120 pound dog and walk it down the street -- most of the time. 

But I am also of the mind that these training devices should never be used as a management tool, only a training tool. Dogs should not need a prong collar forever. They should respect who is on the other end of the lead. Because one day there will be an equipment failure and if you cannot call that dog to heal and take hold of him, it will be tragic. 

I choose to train without pinching, poking, chchching, jerking, choking, taking control of the muzzle, or shocking the dog. It takes longer, but when I am there, the dog will respond collar or no collar. And no lead is how they normally are, whether within the fenced yard or out front enroute to the car.

No they are not robots, but I have called them off chasing game they kicked up. 

For me, I know that I will drop the lead from time to time. But everyone should consider this. leashes break, prong collars come undone, head collars can be slipped. If you do not have control over your dog without such helps, then it is only a matter of time. So, if you must use a training device, use it with the intent to graduate from it.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

lixy,
I am 115 and I guess Jake will be over a hundred pounds also...but I am hoping to not need a prong IF I continue practicing all the loose leash now while he's a pup....

What is the correct age for a prong if it's needed? opinions?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

If you train loose leash well early, you may not need anything other than a regular soft collar. That's always my goal. Only had one dog that needed a choke chain and I've never needed prong or halter. The key is to get the behavior right before they reach a difficult size and the good behavior is the norm. If you just think about people who have trained so well off leash... it's certainly possible to train well with a nice comfy collar. Your milage may vary.


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## Baersmama (Jun 15, 2010)

We use the prong collar. If you decide to use this make sure to buy one with more "midsized" prongs. You may think, the larger the dog, the bigger the prong. But, in my experience the bigger the prong, the less control. Good luck.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

and is it at 6 months or a year?


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## lixy (Mar 14, 2007)

selzer said:


> The thing about the prong is that normally, you do not have to use extraordinary force to get the dog to do what you want him to do. A 115 pound woman CAN put one on a 120 pound dog and walk it down the street -- most of the time.
> 
> But I am also of the mind that these training devices should never be used as a management tool, only a training tool. Dogs should not need a prong collar forever. They should respect who is on the other end of the lead. Because one day there will be an equipment failure and if you cannot call that dog to heal and take hold of him, it will be tragic.
> 
> ...


I am also quite capable of calling my dog off of a chase. But even though he knows it's not allowed, he may end up bolting after a cat or a squirrel if I don't see it before him and verbally keep him in check. That's what I meant about not being a robot.
Sure I can call him off after he bolts, but by then I'll have a dislocated shoulder and be missing multiple teeth after a face plant on the pavement. I'll pass.
It would be perfect if I could always walk him off leash--that way no worries of me being taken along for the ride. But most places we go have leash laws. And so then he is on a prong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sue's point was that the prong collar is a training tool. I fell into the trap of using it as a crutch. Know what?..she pulls on a leash on a regular collar. Great off leash but she uses the lead as a tether to me so she doesn't have to pay attention. It takes longer to train without a correction collar. some dogs may even need a correction collar but my next dog will be trained completely different than I trained Jax.


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## lixy (Mar 14, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> Sue's point was that the prong collar is a training tool. I fell into the trap of using it as a crutch. Know what?..she pulls on a leash on a regular collar. Great off leash but she uses the lead as a tether to me so she doesn't have to pay attention. It takes longer to train without a correction collar. some dogs may even need a correction collar but my next dog will be trained completely different than I trained Jax.


I'm sorry, I was not clear. I don't intend to use any collar or lead as a crutch. My dog is generally fantastic on a flat collar, but has spontaneously lost control and bolted in the past. I know how strong he is, and I know I don't stand a chance if he does per chance decide to take an unexpected sprint. If I walk him on a flat collar, I am always tense and hypervigilant looking for ANY possible trigger to prevent a potential take off, and the walks are generally stressful and unpleasant for both of us. With the prong, I am secure in the knowledge that if he does make a break for it, my body will still be intact afterwards. It rarely ever happens, and since he doesn't pull on walks, this is the only time he feels pressure from the prong collar. The peace of mind is priceless.


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## ritacykim (May 27, 2010)

I really like the prong collar because our pup doesn't pull, but we just signed up for obedience class and our trainer uses the koehler method and we are using the choker right now and after we learned how to put it on correctly and how to use it, it's seriously been AMAZING!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

120 pound dogs, squirrels, cats -- we HAVE to be able to control our dogs. If we cannot control a 120 pound dog without a training collar, then maybe we should not have a 120 pound dog. Maybe we should have looked at the paws back when it was eight weeks old and said, better get this one into class pronto. 

I find the reliance on a collar that provides a correction to do normal functions disheartening. Using them temporarily in training, and then removing the tool, well that may be for some a necessary evil. But the idea of using a correction collar for life is troublesome for me. 

I currently have a 53 pound freight train. I would have flunked her in her first CGC test if it was up to me because she did not really stop pulling much. When I took it at the end of our classes she did better, but she still needs to improve. She will be eleven months old on the 26th. 

A friend of mine would have left her be completely until ten months, put a prong on her and had her obedience down in a week -- that is what he tells me he does with his own dogs. 

And I am over here sweating bullets since the August shows are upon me, and she is still The Little Engine that Could. 

I guess the short answer is that I would rather NQ in August, then to get there by whipping, shocking, or pinching my dog, using pain to modify her behavior. 

I have heard a hundred times how excited the dog gets when the old prong collar is jingled. My girl gets just as excited when I rattle the gate, or grab her collar. She knows she is coming with me. If I jingle a choker she gets excited. It does not mean she likes the devices that hook her to me, it means she wants to go. 

Some people like to go from here to there as rapidly as possible, me, I'll take the scenic route and enjoy the ride.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Relayer said:


> If you train loose leash well early, you may not need anything other than a regular soft collar. That's always my goal. Only had one dog that needed a choke chain and I've never needed prong or halter. The key is to get the behavior right before they reach a difficult size and the good behavior is the norm. If you just think about people who have trained so well off leash... it's certainly possible to train well with a nice comfy collar. Your milage may vary.





selzer said:


> I find the reliance on a collar that provides a correction to do normal functions disheartening. Using them temporarily in training, and then removing the tool, well that may be for some a necessary evil. But the idea of using a correction collar for life is troublesome for me.
> 
> I guess the short answer is that I would rather NQ in August, then to get there by whipping, shocking, or pinching my dog, using pain to modify her behavior.
> 
> Some people like to go from here to there as rapidly as possible, me, I'll take the scenic route and enjoy the ride.


 
This is how I feel. I'm reading Purely Positive Training, and hoping to find a trainer out here like that. I'll try to do it myself if I have to, but uderstanding the concept and ideas doesn't mean that I'm actually _doing_ it right. I need someone to bring it to life for me, someone with the knowledge and experience and an eye for details that can pinpoint what needs work, or what I'm not doing right, or better methods of directing them into straighter sits and proper downs and stuff, you know? 

For example, the other day, I thought I was just practicing loose-leash walking with Godric, and we were doing really well! Then I was told that _he_ was walking _me_. I didn't feel like that was the case, but I guess it was! And here I thought we were doing great! So I know I need help with stuff.


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

prong! for my extremely timid but extremely stong puller! i do not want to encounter any accidents for her or us! tried EVERYTHING! been there done that. i love my prong!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Loose leash walking means the dog is on the right or left or out in front but not pulling you. If that is what the dog was doing, than you were doing it right.

You can up the ante by changing your direction, but talk to your dog. In a cheerful voice, say Turning or Back and have to have the dog understand that you are turning right or left. 

One thing to stay completely away from are flexi-leads while training. A Flexi-lead gives you very little control if something were to happen, and it rewards the dog for pulling by giving him more line. The only way he gets more line is to pull. While teaching in particular, these should be avoided. Actually, the only think I use them for is to hold doors open. 

Who told you the dog was walking you? Was this a trainer? Was this someone just making conversation. People sometimes just say that because they think it sounds kool. The dog has you trained. the dog is walking you. If it is your trainer, than practice heeling in class, and practice heeling outside of class, but also give your pup some time to walk nicely with a loose leash. Eventually, it would be nice to expect the dog to remain on the left side, less trouble with tripping over him, getting him to turn with you, sit when you stop.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> ...........
> I find the reliance on a collar that provides a correction to do normal functions disheartening. Using them temporarily in training, and then removing the tool, well that may be for some a necessary evil. But the idea of using a correction collar for life is troublesome for me. *Even if it really helps in training esp. with a BIG dog and a SMALL person? BTW, one does NOT have to be cruel or even mean in using a prong collar - they are actually easier on a dog than a traditionall slip collar.*
> 
> I currently have a 53 pound freight train. ............. She will be eleven months old on the 26th.
> ...


Many people use slip and/or prong collars without ever "whipping, shocking or pinching" their dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not want to make an argument. The prong collar does pinch the dog, it is also called a pinch collar. The dog pulls and gets pinched. I do not like to attach a collar that bites my dog, neither with a shock or a pinch. 

I am not a dog. I am not the alpha dog in my pack. Sorry, I do not bite their neck to simulate what a momma dog or an alpha dog would do in the wild. I never had to. 

It takes me a little longer, but I do get there in the end, and I do not then have to wean myself off of these training aids. 

Currently my largest GSD is a 75 pound bitch. My dogs that I had were 78 -82 pounds. Cujo weighs 96. I can walk him, though I do not live with him, and he has NEVER had a prong collar, head halter, or shock collar on. 

I use flat collars or martingales. When the dogs are trained and heeling nicely, I might use a slip collar, but generally I stick with the martingale. 

Lastly, I DO NOT believe using head collars or pinch collars is abusive in ANY way. However, I do not think that it is positive reinforcement training. I am trying to train my dogs in such a way that I teach them what I want and because they want to please me, they do what I tell them to do. I will tell them NO, or EH, I will give a leash pop if I must. It is almost never necessary. But for the majority of the time, I strive to train them using positive techniques. 

It works for me. Yes I am bigger than my dogs. But I can get them to do what I want with or without a leash, so my size makes no difference. This is a must for me because I have a problem with my wrists that causes me to drop things. I drop the leashes. A prong collar does not help you when the leash is dragging on the grround. I have had surgery for this. It did not work, it left two of my fingers completely numb and I drop things worse than ever. 

Leash pops with choke chains is hard on my wrist too, so I avoid it. 

So maintaining control of our dogs has to be good without equipment. Lots of people put the power steering on their dogs, and night and day difference. Great. If they would only use this as a temporary measure, but no. Too often these dogs are wearing these collars for the rest of their lives. I find that disheartening.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This thread is a bit old, so Joy just turned a year this week. She was just getting good at walking and then spent the last three weeks in heat. Hmmmph!!! No, I do not bother to train when we are in heat. So, I signed Babsy and Heidi up for the specialty show in August, and I have a few more months with The Little Engine That Could. 

She weighs 57 pounds. Her aunt at this age weighed 58 pounds, she is now 70, so I think Joy will be the proper size when she fills out.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

selzer said:


> Loose leash walking means the dog is on the right or left or out in front but not pulling you. If that is what the dog was doing, than you were doing it right.
> 
> You can up the ante by changing your direction, but talk to your dog. In a cheerful voice, say Turning or Back and have to have the dog understand that you are turning right or left.
> 
> Who told you the dog was walking you? Was this a trainer? Was this someone just making conversation. People sometimes just say that because they think it sounds kool. The dog has you trained. the dog is walking you. If it is your trainer, than practice heeling in class, and practice heeling outside of class, but also give your pup some time to walk nicely with a loose leash. Eventually, it would be nice to expect the dog to remain on the left side, less trouble with tripping over him, getting him to turn with you, sit when you stop.


Keep in mind that he's only been on a leash about 4 times ever. 

I was kinda walking him in a really big square, and trying to get his attention or keep him going when we got to the point where he was closer to the other dogs. Most of the time, I thought he was by me, but sometimes he was a tad behind, and because our path would go the same way for a bit, sometimes he'd jog out in front, but the leash was always loose, he wasn't really pulling... until we got near the other dogs. Then he'd run out as far as he could towards them. 

My husband pointed out my mistake there. I should have kept walking, but instead, I stopped and stood still, and tried to get his attention, and get him to come back to me, and when he did, he'd get praise and treats and_ then_ continue walking. Sometimes it worked and he'd turn his attention back to me and come back, sometimes I had to reel him in to me with the leash, and then we'd keep walking.

The trainer wanted me to jerk him back when he reached the end of the leash, and I wasn't going to do that. Instead, I lured him back by calling him and with treats. I already have another thread on here about how my trainer seems to like to "teach" through correction, and specifically how she was trying to tell us to train him the day in question, so although she _has_ taught us a few worthwhile things, I don't put a whole lot of stock into things she says, because of her methods.  

It seems that she_ looks_ for problems a lot of times, even when they're normal puppy things. Like he's interested and excited to be around other dogs and wants to play (he's 3 months old), and she starts talking about future dog aggression. On that day, we were supposed to be working on recall on a leash, and she said "You can't work on anything else until you get this handled." We can't work on anything until our dog isn't interested in other dogs?? Why not work further away from the other dogs, so he gets used to them being a distraction from a distance, and then slowly work on the same things, but closer? And her method of "handling it" was letting him go out on a long line towards the other dogs, then jerking him back when he got to the end of the line, and _then_ calling to him. What? 

I just didn't like it at all, and I don't like the similar methods she uses with other dogs in class, so I must admit that I probably wouldn't be very open to her criticism, haha.

I don't know who said Godric was walking me. The next day, my husband told me "they" were saying it. I don't know if it was just the other people there, or the other people _and_ the trainer or what, but he agreed, so I guess it was probably true.  My point was that even if I FEEL like we're doing the right thing, or it seems to me to be going well or properly, it might not be. Haha, so I do admit that even if I disagree with a trainer and her methods, she still knows more than I do. I just need to find one whose methods I _do_ like.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Errrrgh! Not you. This reminds me of the trainer I too Jenna to.

My first GSD was my biggest mistake. He was dominant and very head strong, he was also injured and had chronic pain in a leg that was shattered. I did no training with him. 

Arwen, my second dog, was the exact opposite of Frodo. When I had to yell at Frodo before he too me seriously, Arwen needed only a nice calm voice for anything. Being harsh with her was not the way to go. 

The trainer I went to with her was an obedience judge and breeder of briards. She was old school, but good. In eight weeks she had a group of incorrigible yearlings about ready to do their CD. We used a cotton choke chain that she fitted on the dog to make sure the size was correct, we taught them to heel by our side on lead and off lead, inside and outside. She was seventy something, and by the time Jenna and Babs hit the seen, she was either retired or dead. 

So I looked to the newspaper and found this little shelty lady and signed up with Jenna as she was more outgoing than babs at ten weeks of age for a puppy class. It turned out to be a basic obedience class and the woman teaching it was AFRAID of my ten week old puppy, and kept saying she would be a fear biter. By the end of the six weeks, she had said so many rotten things to everyone in the class that it was just she and I the last couple of classes. Everyone else quit.

I suffered through that class and the next class. By the third class with her, I started telling her not to do some things. My dog was wary of her by that point, and would back up when she approached. She would then back away. I told her finally that she is doing exactly what the dog wants. I told her to come over and not retreat, just stand there are an address the class from there, or talk to me. In less than a class setting, Jenna was nosing her and getting used to her. 

I learned from this woman that she DID NOT necessarily know more than me. She certainly did not know my dog better than me. At this time, I found a great trainer and put Babs in her class, while working Jenna with this woman. I got a lot of great info from the other woman. When Jenna went into heat, I took Babs to Jenna's class, it was just me and her again, and she decided to train her Great Dane pup during the class time. 

She had us sit. Babsy sat right down. Heel, Babs heeled right along side us. She told us to DOWN, Babsy lay herself right down. The GD wanted no part of it. She tried this, and that to get him down. She was all about all positive training techniques. Babs is lying quietly at my side. Finally, the lady body slammed the Great Dane to the ground. She said that he did not have the work ethic of my dog. 

Do not be so sure that the trainer you are going to knows more than you. She may, she may not. Do not do anything you feel uncomfortable with. All dogs are different. Jenna will take a correction much better than Babsy. They are from the same litter, just very different. And at the point that you are in training, YOU are the best judge of your pup's temperament. 

At twelve weeks of age, this is not the time for corrections. Yes, you can train him to potty outside, and to not bite so hard. But classes and obedience should be fun fun fun. Everything a game. Lots of treats, and praise. Attention span is not long, so if it seems like there is a few minutes to waste, do something fun with your dog. I mistakingly taught Jenna to jump up on me, just for fun. But there was nothing else to do and I wanted part of this class to be fun for her. 

I am all about classes, but just your pup paying attention to you while there are other dogs/pups around is good enough. Perfect heeling, sitting, finishes, etc. will come. Corrections (leash pops/jerks) are not a good idea for a twelve week old pup, only if the pup is going after another dog barking and carrying on, maybe. Usually this is a little young for that.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I call the prong collar my magic wand! It's worked miracles for us


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Same here...I use it from time to time now that we are learning to really heel and it has made all the difference in the world!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I do not want to make an argument. The prong collar does pinch the dog, it is also called a pinch collar. The dog pulls and gets pinched. I do not like to attach a collar that bites my dog, neither with a shock or a pinch.
> 
> I am not a dog. I am not the alpha dog in my pack. Sorry, I do not bite their neck to simulate what a momma dog or an alpha dog would do in the wild. I never had to.
> 
> ...


No argument is a good policy! I second it.

When I first saw the prong collar, I too thought "Never on my poor dog"; then I put it on my bare wrist and gave myself a heck of a jerk - it really didn't put a string of little holes in my wrist. Then I read the research that said that a prong collar is easier on the dogs neck than a slip collar since it can only get so tight unlike a slip collar which just gets tighter. And of course with either one, if they are used properly are only tight for an instance with a correction and then are loose.

But I always say - people should only use what they feel comfortable with and what works with their individual dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I own two prong collars. The one I bought for Dubya (My Boy RIP) when I had my surgery. It was large with heavy prongs. It was no good because I could not fasten it on the dog with my wrist cut up. 

Dubya at about a year of age decided to bark and lunge at other dogs. I took him to a training class -- his first set was finished, no problems. This class was a one day deal. She put the prong on him, and every time he lunged at a dog I gave him a correction. It helped. She told me to continue, and find classes. I called a trainer/behaviorist, and set up a time for her to work with him and me. She had a holy cow when she saw the prong collar, told me the dog was afraid for his life, and that the halti was my savior. HE HATED THE HALTI. She said that dogs that REALLY need it generally dislike it most. She told me to keep him away from all other dogs. It was not until nearly a year and a half later that I realized she did not know what she was talking about.

The other prong I bought was smaller. I got it because it had a quick release and I thought it would be easier to manage with my wrists and all. 

The quick release mechanism makes you thread this tiny chain link through this tiny hole while the dog is flipping back and forth, and then you have to snag it with this lever. I think that may be the most useless piece of equipment I have ever spent money on. I have not tried to master it. Joy sometimes tests my resolution not to though.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

how old is your dog?

start teaching your dog to heel.

from 9 weeks old untill he was
4 months i used a flat collar.
starting at 4 months i used a choker.

when the choker was on i used light hands.
i never yanked my dog, i never lifted him
off his feet and i never put any heavy pressure
on the choker.

prong or halter, i don't know. i think
you should find a trainer and take it
from there.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

selzer said:


> I own two prong collars. The one I bought for Dubya (My Boy RIP) when I had my surgery. It was large with heavy prongs.
> 
> The other prong I bought was smaller. I got it because it had a quick release and I thought it would be easier to manage with my wrists and all.


Selzer, I think you already know this but for those reading this that don't I will say it anyway. 

The first prong, the large with heavy links, was most likely way too big for your dog. Our dogs usually need a small to medium prong depending on how much hair they have.

The second prong, you need to be careful with the quick releases, they pop open. So if you have a dog that needs correction for lunging, you are in trouble with a quick release. I used a medium quick release on Raven for awhile. She pulls (my fault for not training better) but doesn't need hard corrections so it works ok. However, the couple of times we've been charged by a dog and I had to pull her back to get her away, the quick release popped and I now had a loose dog.

I recently switched her to a small Herm Sprenger (not quick release, 2.25 mm links) and I saw a change in control on the first day. She responded better to it and the small links were much easier to open and close.

If you are a first time prong buyer, make sure you do the research on how to properly fit the collar and how to use it properly to give corrections. I can't tell you how many times I've stopped people because the prong was 3 -5 links too big or they are holding it tight constantly.


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow I was surprised to see this post was still here, I never did end up using a prong collar with Bella, I just do individual walks with both my guys, more exersize for me I guess I will stay in really good shape : ) And if we do a family walk I take Bella by herself burn off some of that energy then she is wonderful with the whole family. Legend on the other hand is the complete opposite I guess I learned from my mistakes with Bella because since we brought him home he has walked like a charm he stays right at my side no pulling at all from him and when we started I always had treats with me and rewarded his good behavour which I am so thankful for.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dubya had a mane of long hair about his neck, his ruff, I do not know that the prong was too large, but a smaller one with more links give better control. Neither of them did any good for me, though. And since then I have been doing just fine without prong collars. Dubya had a very strong personality -- good solid nerves when it came to corrections and such. Babsy on the other hand would melt if I tried to correct her sternly. 

I think that it is a tool, and not abusive. I just choose to do without it particularly because of my wrists, and because I cannot use them in the ring.


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