# Working or show line breeder?



## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hi, I am new to this forum. My husband and I have decided to add a German Shepherd to our family. My husband has been wanting a German Shepherd for years and we are excited to finally be ready to make the commitment. Due to quarantine we have plenty of time to devote to raising/training a puppy. I have been doing some research and am still a bit confused about the difference between working lines and show lines. What we are looking for is a companion/protection dog. So not looking for a super high drive police dog or anything like that. We are an average active family, enjoy hiking, and have an acre of land. We are in Long Island, NY but are willing to travel 3-4 hours. Would be willing to ship, however, with COVID, it may not be possible. Would be great to get some suggestions of a reputable breeder who maybe has some pups available now or soon. I understand we may have to wait, but thought I’d ask, and maybe we will get lucky. Thank you so much in advance for your help!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I will tell you that my bias is that the show line are an embarrassment to the breed. When you say you want a protection dog, what do you mean? Do you want a dog that would actually bite someone if they broke into your house or tried to physically attack you? Or are you just looking for an "image" dog that will bark when people come around but won't actually bite?


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hi, thank you for your reply. We are looking for a dog that will actually bite someone if they attempted to break in or attack anyone in my family, for sure.

Edited to add: Thank you all for your responses. I now realize that actually biting isn't necessary for protection.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

DogMom123 said:


> Hi, thank you for your reply. We are looking for a dog that will actually bite someone if they attempted to break in or attack anyone in my family, for sure.


Generally a dog that will put up a good show is enough for the average dog owner. 

Do you understand the training commitment and liability that comes with owning a dog that will confidently bite and stay in the fight? (not talking about sport dogs)

Honestly, if someone is crazy enough to approach a barking/snarling dog... they’re probably prepared to shoot/stab/fight that dog too. i have not encountered a person like this, nor would i want to put my companion in that position.


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

You make a great point. I have never owned a german shepherd, but I would imagine you are correct. We have a Cane Corso, who most people are scared of just by the way he looks, even though he is a big mush. He is 11 now though, so he is getting up there...


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## K9SHOUSE (Jun 8, 2003)

Most sophisticated criminals will simply pass on your house if it has a GSD sign. To many other opportunities in the world that are easier. This has been documented in criminal behavior analysis. Many people will cross the street when you walk down the sidewalk. If you want your GSD to have more "presence" then look for a bicolor or darker sable litter. If someone is still breaking in after hearing a dog go berserk, they probably can't be reasoned with. Even if your dog attacks, then what? Leave the dog on till the police come and face hugh liability? Call the dog back and step in yourself to restrain the criminal? How will you do that? 

Dogs are only the first deterrent or warning systems in these extreme situations. They buy time for steps 2 and 3. Step 2 is call the police or wait for your alarm system to call after you don't answer the phone. Step 3 is either arm yourself to confront or barricade and wait for the police. 

NYS is litigation crazy. If you want a dog at that level you need to understand your full responsibility so you don't lose your house or the dog pays the price. No rescue will take a dog with a bite history.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

To your original question @DogMom123 ... here’s some reading to get you started: (Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DogMom123 said:


> Hi, thank you for your reply. We are looking for a dog that will actually bite someone if they attempted to break in or attack anyone in my family, for sure.


Most dogs will not just bite someone without training. Most will choose flight over fight and I would expect most dogs deemed to be companion dogs to do just that. That said, dogs also bark. Criminals generally do not like noise and you are far better off installing a home security system than relying on an untrained dog. Is L.I. a high crime area that this is really a concern?

Working lines - where police dogs come from. Bred to maintain the breeds ability to work.
Show lines - they do conformation. Some have the drive to work. 

Either will make a good pet if matched appropriately with the right dog.


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

K9SHOUSE said:


> Most sophisticated criminals will simply pass on your house if it has a GSD sign. To many other opportunities in the world that are easier. This has been documented in criminal behavior analysis. Many people will cross the street when you walk down the sidewalk. If you want your GSD to have more "presence" then look for a bicolor or darker sable litter. If someone is still breaking in after hearing a dog go berserk, they probably can't be reasoned with. Even if your dog attacks, then what? Leave the dog on till the police come and face hugh liability? Call the dog back and step in yourself to restrain the criminal? How will you do that?
> 
> Dogs are only the first deterrent or warning systems in these extreme situations. They buy time for steps 2 and 3. Step 2 is call the police or wait for your alarm system to call after you don't answer the phone. Step 3 is either arm yourself to confront or barricade and wait for the police.
> 
> NYS is litigation crazy. If you want a dog at that level you need to understand your full responsibility so you don't lose your house or the dog pays the price. No rescue will take a dog with a bite history.


Thank you for your reply. I understand what you are saying. A dog that protects, but doesn't actually bite sounds like it would be enough.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A true protection dog is probably not a good idea for a first time owner. There are plenty of working line German Shepherd that even with training, will not bite for real, but will put on an impressive display that will keep people away.


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Most dogs will not just bite someone without training. Most will choose flight over fight and I would expect most dogs deemed to be companion dogs to do just that. That said, dogs also bark. Criminals generally do not like noise and you are far better off installing a home security system than relying on an untrained dog. Is L.I. a high crime area that this is really a concern?
> 
> Working lines - where police dogs come from. Bred to maintain the breeds ability to work.
> Show lines - they do conformation. Some have the drive to work.
> ...


Thank you. No, we are not in a high crime area, but it is nice to have a sense of protection from any intruders. I guess I just imagined any dog would attack someone if they come into your home or try to attack you or your family, and German Shepherds are known to be protective of their family. But, I totally understand what you and others are saying. So I would be happy with a dog that wasn't trained to bite.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You can find what you want in either line. You need to find a breeder with dogs you like and that would fit your lifestyle activity wise. Every working line isn't bouncing off the wall crazy, and every showline isn't some overweight couch potato. Everyone has their preferences. For most here, I would say it's working lines.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I was watching an ex-con on a talk show. He was asked what deterred him from robbing a house. The ex-con said a barking dog. The interviewer asked if it was because he was afraid of dogs. The ex-con said no. A barking dog alerts the homeowners in order to give the homeowner enough time to get their gun. lol

So any barking dog is usually a deterrent from a burglar. They want to rob the easiest house...and dogs aren’t easy.

With that being said, a GSD is a physical deterrent by themselves. People will cross to the other side of the street to avoid you. I have a bi-color GSD and get a lot of “ social distancing” when out on walks. 😂 I actually love it because it gives me security when I walk alone at night. I’m never afraid.

Quick story. I was out walking Dexter a couple of months ago and two boys around ten and six years old were playing in their dad’s truck. The six year old said to his brother, “That’s a wolf.” The ten year old responded, “No, that’s a K-9.” So stinking cute. Point being, a GSD does have a reputation (even with kids), so you don’t need to teach it to bite. I believe 99% of criminals will leave you alone and chose an easier target.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I also find that many people have had and do own different lines. My taste at least has changed over the years. My first was presumably a WL (color, build) and in a sense, set the standard in my mind. Didn’t take her anywhere near her potential, but she taught me a lot. Then I fell in love with black and red long coats - only one way to get one of those, so despite my WL preference, I ended up with a SL. My next dog will be a WL. With each dog my choice has been driven by different things.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You have a cane corsi you are pretty much covered in the deterrent department. If you are looking for an all round gsd to enjoy who will act as a deterrent showlines will fit the bill. Laws regarding bites on the property do not protect the dog or owner. That kind of liability is really not worth the risk. I had a working line super level headed. Would guard to the end. A dog like that needs to be really level headed and a high threshold for a activefamily. He did no ever over react but not did he bark. It’s good to meet the different lines. A good shepherd is a good shepherd despite any bias just go and out and meet owners of gsds. Which it is hard to do at the moment. There is also all a range of different looks. There are breeders who have different litters and there are showline pups who have range in structure in one litter. I have a american showline male and wgsl female. The is male protective may not destroy a person but protective enough for what I want. They are both really great minded dogs in a busy active home with lots of family kids who visit I do have kids who now are young teens in the home. A stable shepherd no matter what line is important to have. I had worker in the basement a few months ago. The worker was here all day and had various people doing some projects. Max was very protective when saw the man in the backyard entering and leaving the gate multiple times but I reminded him he was okay. Someone who was a guest in the house let the dogs out as I was upstairs and when the worker was in the backyard. Max ran up to him the worker who was familiar and owned a gsds and said hello. Max just jumped on him smelled him but did nothing only watched him. Now he saw the man was not a threat. He is mature and his impulsive days behind him. Max is more watchful of strangers out and about and Luna not social to strangers but more comfortable with lavish attention from a stranger in a street Will reciprocate even though she has no interest. Max is from Woodhaven gsd in New Jersey - Jessica Torres who produced many cadaver dogs who work with police and Luna from hollow hills gsd in Pennsylvania- Beth dillenbeck.There is Mardan kennels - American showlines who also lproduced some sar dogs on Long Island. Also Judy a breeder Has every akc titled her dogs but she does not often breed. I am from the island if you want to pm and I can direct you to other gsd people that can help you.


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

Has anyone had any experience with this breeder ?https://m.facebook.com/KimVailAlberdonShepherds/ They have a puppy available now. Here is the pedigree Litter from Wiking Denbrix and Oxana Denbrix


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would certainly choose that breeding over any show line breeding. Many of those lines used to be old style tough dogs, but have become more sporty/less aggressive due to market demands. I don’t know enough about the individual dogs in the pedigree and what they have produced, but you are likely to get a pup representative of what the breed should be as opposed to a show dog. Talk to the breeders and see what they think the breeding is likely to produce and tell them what type of dog you are hoping for. Each pup in a litter is an individual and some pups will be more extreme and others will likely be something you can manage with preparation. Any pup requires his new owner to have some fundamental knowledge.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lol 
I had sent you another Pm


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> Lol
> I had sent you another Pm


I didn’t get another one. 🤷‍♀️


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had sent it not sure why.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Personally, I love the WGSL dogs and don't want any other type. Our dog is very protective of his property and people, maybe a bit too much so. He has put people back in their cars when they drove up on our small farm without my noticing their arrival. So he can look and act pretty fierce, like any other German Shepherd. If people ignore him, he's good with that as well and won't attack them.

He doesn't need hours of work every day like some of the working lines, and he's really pretty lazy most of the time. That suits us fine as we aren't getting any younger. He gets all the exercise he needs helping with chores around the place and doesn't have a problem if we have to stay inside on bad weather days.

I know I'm in the minority here, but the show lines suit us fine, and we prefer them, especially the German ones. Find a breeder that you can trust and tell them what you want. They should find the right match for you. What type you get depends on what you want from your dog.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

While I certainly don’t agree with Chip’s disparaging of show line dogs, I will say that I prefer working line myself. I had a WGSL puppy and currently have a WGWL puppy. The working line is sooo much easier and more what I was looking for in terms of drive. My show line had very little food drive, which made training difficult. He was less dog, but still plenty. His exercise requirements weren’t as high. I truly believe that if you find the right breeder, the lines don’t matter as much, because like I said earlier, my working line is actually easier than my show line ever was.

Decided what “look” you like, how much training you can really do, how much exercise you can honestly commit to _every single day _and pick a breeder. Be completely honest. You’ll get the right puppy.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The notion that working line dogs need hours of work each day is a myth. Once a dog matures, that is not necessary unless the dog is hyper which is not the same as drive. Regarding dogs "acting" fierce, that may be all some people want or need but usually that type of dog who chases people off or barks aggressively through a fence have a false sense of confidence and if they needed to fight a person, they would not have the training or the temperament to do so.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I understand that working line dogs don't necessarily need hours of work every day. I said some working lines, not all.

You are making assumptions about my dog that aren't true. I'm sorry, but you don't know my dog and have no idea of what his situation is. I don't want him to fight a person and would never want a dog like that. He has no need of that type of training. But he's not one to back off either. He will stand his ground. All I'm saying is that he can look bad enough that most people don't want to push him. He's a companion dog and that's all he needs to be.

We live on a farm and he is never in a fence and never has been. I'm just trying to make the point that you don't have to have a working line dog to own a dog that will protect his territory and his family. Or he will at least give that impression to strangers, and for us, that's enough.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Pawsed said:


> I understand that working line dogs don't necessarily need hours of work every day.
> 
> You are making assumptions about my dog that aren't true. I'm sorry, but you don't know my dog and have no idea of what his situation is. I don't want him to fight a person and would never want a dog like that. He has no need of that type of training. But he's not one to back off either. He will stand his ground. All I'm saying is that he can look bad enough that most people don't want to push him. He's a companion dog and that's all he needs to be.
> 
> We live on a farm and he is never in a fence. I'm just trying to make the point that you don't have to have a working line dog to have a dog that will protect his territory and his family. Or he will at least give that impression to strangers, and for us, that's enough.


the idea of dogs putting on a show or simply acting as a deterrent has been mentioned at least several times previously in this thread. i have not seen where anyone has made any assumptions specifically regarding your dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I find people that all they want do is bash others lines I view as odd to me. Especially on thread on someone looking for a family dog. Although I do make my own assumptions about that kind of person and I surely try not to lump everyone in a box. I’m not responding any more and hope the op enjoys searching for their pup regardless of line and just finds a nice pup to enjoy. German shepherds are a different breed all together and they sure are addicting.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I may have misinterpreted what Chip said, but it seemed to me he was saying that since my dog would bark fiercely through a fence or chase people off, he has a false sense of confidence. I just pointed out that he has never been in a fence and is a very confident dog. 

I think it's unfair to judge someone's dog for any reason, especially over the internet. If you want to evaluate my dog, please do so in person. I'm obviously not very good at relaying what I'm trying to get across, so I'm out of this as well.

Everyone has their own preferences about the type of dog they want to have. I hope the OP finds the perfect dog for her family.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

All working line dogs aren’t created equal. Neither are all show lines.

The variation within this breed is staggering, and I strongly believe everyone needs to go look at dogs in various environments and then decide what appeals to them, personally.

I’ve owned both kinds, from polar opposite ends of the breed spectrum, FTR. Go look at dogs being worked, trained, shown and trialed - as soon as it’s safe, obviously.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

At this point, any bashing (perceived or otherwise) or further discussion regarding an individual(s) dog needs to be taken to PMs.

Public posts will be deleted, without explanation.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm not fond of putting labels on anything or anyone. Once you do that, you make assumptions that aren't necessarily true. All show line dogs are not exactly the same, as no working line dogs are either. Each dog and each person is an individual. It's not fair to either to put a label on them and think they all all alike.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

DogMom123 said:


> Has anyone had any experience with this breeder ?https://m.facebook.com/KimVailAlberdonShepherds/ They have a puppy available now. Here is the pedigree Litter from Wiking Denbrix and Oxana Denbrix


I don't have experience with that breeder. And I won't comment on the different lines because this is looking messy.

I will say that you should try to find a breeder that places puppies according to a specific owner's needs rather than the owner choosing from dogs available. A good pedigree is important but so is the ability to place a puppy correctly. Each litter will have a range of ability from SAR, service, schutzhund and all the way to family companion.


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> I don't have experience with that breeder. And I won't comment on the different line because this is looking messy.
> 
> I will say that you should try to find a breeder that places puppies according to a specific owner's needs rather than the owner choosing from dogs available. A good pedigree is important but so is the ability to place a puppy correctly. Each litter will have a range of ability from SAR, service, schutzhund and all the way to family companion.


Thanks for your reply. We have decided not to get this pup. I agree with you, we should wait to find a breeder who can pick the right puppy for our family.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

since you seem to be in the MI/OH area, I suggest these breeders, which I know personally and see dogs from:
SL's Alta-Tollhaus, Aus Gerstbrei 
WL's Wildhaus, Glaurung, Auf der Marquis


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

onyx'girl said:


> since you seem to be in the MI/OH area, I suggest these breeders, which I know personally and see dogs from:
> SL's Alta-Tollhaus, Aus Gerstbrei
> WL's Wildhaus, Glaurung, Auf der Marquis


Thank you so much!


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## DogMom123 (Apr 12, 2020)

onyx'girl said:


> since you seem to be in the MI/OH area, I suggest these breeders, which I know personally and see dogs from:
> SL's Alta-Tollhaus, Aus Gerstbrei
> WL's Wildhaus, Glaurung, Auf der Marquis


We decided we are getting a puppy from Glaurungs current litter! From my research on this forum and elsewhere, we decided to go with a working line. This litter has 10 puppies, so she should be able to match us up with a medium drive puppy, as opposed to super high drive.


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