# Trainer says behavior was Fear not Aggression. How can you tell which is which?



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

If this incident was Fear, Then Fear and Aggression look the same to me.

I left Finn in his locked crate while I was packing up to leave our cabin in Maine. Everything was all set, stuff in the car, ready to go. So I let him out of his crate. Then all **** broke loose…
He spotted this guy that he just hates. He crashed through the screen door and kept circling him about 6 feet away barking and lunging, then running back to me, then running back to him repeating the whole crazy cycle over and over.
To make matters worse, the guy kept saying, "hey buddy, it’s okay." It was chaos. Finally he ran back to me and I was able to grab him, leash him and put him into a heel. He did settle but was sitting up straight and his ears were forward. 

Finn just turned one. He’s 90lbs. He is a very laid back pup. He is tolerant of dogs, men, women and kids. He’s a big goof. He is so laid back that his trainer likes to say “There’s a GSD in there somewhere.” : )
I was afraid that incident was a sign of Finn becoming aggressive. He behaved like that with that same guy when he was 7 months. But, Never anyone else.

One good thing, he got moved up to Advanced Obedience.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do you know this guy? I would find it odd that he only behaves this way with one specific person. Sounds like he is sensing something off with this guy.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Yeah I would trust my dogs instincts unless I knew the person


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Body language


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm I would call for a second opinion! That strikes me as very odd?? Espically the ears froward part!

I saw Rocky do that (the ear thing) one night in the pitch black off leash. We got to a street light and he stops and peers into the darkness?? Ears up and forward, he looks left then right, sniffs the air and then turns around walks pass me and heads for home???

I look in the same direction, I can't see anything, I don't hear anything?? Screw this I turn around and follow him! Don't know what "it" was but he has not done that again!

I trust my dog if you have "never" seen anything like that out of him before?? Trust your gut! 

You might have a "people " problem not a dog problem. 

But you do address a broader topic! I'll see what I can find and start a thread. I did work with a herder dog on a whim a while ago. I broke a couple rules that I often advise people to follow! While insisting on luring her into a down! Dog did not want to do it but she did the first time. But "stress" was clearly visable!

I tried again and instead of saying "nothing," I added lots of good girls and praise! Dog wanted the treat but did not want to down and suddenly she flipped out and snapped while retreating!! I was on my knees at the tme if she would have come towards me it could have gotten ugly!

A truly aggressive dog, you know where they are coming from! A fearful dog, the key word, would be "unpredictable!" Lesson learned! :blush: 

Most likely that trainer has not seen that behaviour before?? I would have found "I don't know what this is but I'll see what I can find out to be a better answer, myself."


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

They say dogs and babies are good judges of character, I agree with the other posters!


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks everyone. Finn had the same reaction to this guy when he met him in March. The same circle lunge and barking thing. 

people on my road hire this guy to do handy work. In March my husband hired him to help clean up the mess left after the winter. That's when Finn had that same reaction toward him...circle lunge.

I live in the city, we walk miles and he meets tons of people, women, men, kids. We have a busy household, lots of visitors. He literally has never had a reaction to a person. And we walk and hike in Maine/NH, he meets people on trails. He meets people on my road and while out shopping.

It's this one guy. I agree, Finn senses something off about him and I'm gonna trust his instinct 100% 
I appreciate the help. take care everyone.
Ps. Also. Finn is never off leash or long line. I have a large pen in Maine (my husband built it for our last GSD, Jake.) 
It was my fault he crashed through the screen door, I forgot to lock it after carrying stuff to car.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I have to agree. Finn senses something is off about this guy. I would trust my dog if I were you.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

While I agree with the above for the most part I don't think you can hang your hat on that and walk away... it being the guy being strange. You have a male that is coming into his own at 1 year old. This is a time when behavioral changes happen. While yes it may have been triggered by this man, you might be seeing the start of territoriality, fear or aggression. Keep a close eye on things and don't assume anything. Great that you are continuing his obedience work.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'd be figuring out how to set your dog up to succeed with this guy so you STOP seeing the behavior.

So figuring out a way for them to meet that will be 100% positive. Whether the guy has a roast beef around his neck to use to constantly pull off treats... or meeting for a rousing long game of chuckit with the guy throwing the ball, or going on a long relaxing hike with the guy so your dog gets used to him.

The next time your dog DECIDES something needs to be 'attacked' because they are acting in a way they aren't socialized to be around or LOOK TO YOU to see how to react, if maybe someone with a new hat, or sunglasses, or a limp or someone elderly or....... 

If the behavior is PREDICTABLE then you are lucky to be able to think of ways to work thru it to teach your dog to still be able to behave and look to you before losing his mind.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think some of his actions WERE fear based. He was trying to chase the guy away (because he's nervous of him/fearful), but not quite brave enough to actually 'touch' him. Hence the circling and running back to you for moral support.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Findlay, did you ask the trainer why it wouldn't be fear based? Or at least have some amount of fear to it? Even if the guy is the goofiest character in the whole city, I can't exactly picture it being something that doesn't involve some amount of fear with the guy just going about his business.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Galathiel said:


> I think some of his actions WERE fear based. He was trying to chase the guy away (because he's nervous of him/fearful), but not quite brave enough to actually 'touch' him. Hence the circling and running back to you for moral support.


I agree with this poster.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Findlay, did you ask the trainer why it wouldn't be fear based? Or at least have some amount of fear to it? Even if the guy is the goofiest character in the whole city, I can't exactly picture it being something that doesn't involve some amount of fear with the guy just going about his business.


The trainer said the behavior was Fear not aggression. 
I was concerned because the behavior looked aggressive to me. 
He was circling lunging and barking and running back to me. 
And repeated that several times till I finally got him leashed and into a heel.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Man, you talk about reading comprehension. How did I manage to read that completely backwards???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> your dog to still be able to behave and look to you before losing his mind.


Well yeah... there is that!


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Findlay said:


> If this incident was Fear, Then Fear and Aggression look the same to me.
> 
> I left Finn in his locked crate while I was packing up to leave our cabin in Maine. Everything was all set, stuff in the car, ready to go. So I let him out of his crate. Then all **** broke loose…
> He spotted this guy that he just hates. He crashed through the screen door and kept circling him about 6 feet away barking and lunging, then running back to me, then running back to him repeating the whole crazy cycle over and over.
> ...


Considering you dog's experiences with other people, it sounds like this incident was a defensive reaction to someone he didn't like being close to his perceived turf. Though other than being in the area, I don't really know what this guy did that instigated the reaction in the first place. 

How close was this guy to your cabin?

Also, why was the guy making matters "worse" when he was saying 'it's okay boy'?



Findlay said:


> Thanks everyone. Finn had the same reaction to this guy when he met him in March. The same circle lunge and barking thing.
> 
> people on my road hire this guy to do handy work. In March my husband hired him to help clean up the mess left after the winter. That's when Finn had that same reaction toward him...circle lunge.
> 
> ...


While I have no idea who this guy is and how has been acting, there is absolutely nothing aggressive or provocative about his actions (at least in the descriptions you have provided thus far). Aren't you the least bit concerned or worried with why your dog was motivated to act out like this?

Unless there is more to the story on this guy, I would not trust your dog's "instincts" for this situation. Sometimes dogs get aggressive with strangers for weird reasons; it doesn't mean that the strangers did anything to provoke the dog, rather it means the dog perceived a threat/confrontation (that may or may not actually be there). In your case, I still have no idea why your dog aggressively charged a random stranger, who, according to you, was simply minding his own business.

I wouldn't readily accept your dog's aggressive response as something that is normal or warranted. Nor do I think your dog is 'alerting' you to any sketchy characters that may be in your neighborhood (at least not in this situation). A veteran GSD trainer may be of some assistance in identifying any quirks or behavioral issues that my be involved. Better to identify them now rather than risk having another unforeseen aggressive reaction.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't have an answer for you for this. Kyleigh loved my neighbour for 4 years ... a month ago, he came into the back yard and she flat out went after him. 

Do I trust my dog's reactions on people based on this one experience? ABSOLUTELY NOT. 

Now, my neighbour loves dogs, has his own, etc. BUT he's a "lab" guy ... doesn't understand the "don't sneak into the dog's yard" ... and he wasn't sneaking, he was doing what he'd done for four years. 

Am I going to start wondering how sketchy my neighbour is? I mean he's a bit of a twit regarding GSD's but there was certainly no malicious intent, he was coming to bring me flowers for my garden that his wife didn't want for heaven's sake.

I believe that you can trust SOME dog's instincts .... but I wouldn't be relying on an immature teenage dog.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

My Red Heeler that I had a while back was like that with one particular guy in my neighborhood. He borrowed a couple of tools from me and every time he would show up, she would bark her head off showing teeth and all!! Just him. My wife said he prolly shouldn't come over anymore. There's just something about him that we can't see. I went with that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'd be figuring out how to set your dog up to succeed with this guy so you STOP seeing the behavior.
> 
> So figuring out a way for them to meet that will be 100% positive. Whether the guy has a roast beef around his neck to use to constantly pull off treats... or meeting for a rousing long game of chuckit with the guy throwing the ball, or going on a long relaxing hike with the guy so your dog gets used to him.
> 
> ...


Hi and thanks. 
Our trainer showed me how to introduce the guy and Finn in a non-threatening way. 
Leash my pup. Put distance between him and the guy. Throw out high value treat ie chicken leading to the guy, with the guy's back to Finn and a treat in his open hand but the hand is behind his back. 
Then I walk Finn through the treats leading up to the guys hand. 
There's more to the process and I was polite and listened to the trainer But I've no interest in Finn making friends with this guy. No offense to him, I just feel it's not important that he and Finn become friendly. 
I do appreciate your help. Thank you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> Also, why was the guy making matters "worse" when he was saying 'it's okay boy'?


First lesson in dealing with dogs on the edge! Keep your mouth shut! Pretty much as simple as that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Findlay said:


> Hi and thanks.
> Our trainer showed me how to introduce the guy and Finn in a non-threatening way.
> Leash my pup. Put distance between him and the guy. Throw out high value treat ie chicken leading to the guy, with the guy's back to Finn and a treat in his open hand but the hand is behind his back.
> Then I walk Finn through the treats leading up to the guys hand.


Yeah and uh no!Sounds like a "positive" only type and I have no idea why some folks insist, on changing whatever dog they have into a lab??? No offense meant to Lab owners.  



Findlay said:


> There's more to the process and I was polite and listened to the trainer But I've no interest in Finn making friends with this guy. No offense to him, I just feel it's not important that he and Finn become friendly.
> I do appreciate your help. Thank you.


In my "opinion" you made the right call. I'm not a fan of "strangers" giving my dogs treats! Not a fan of "training" my dogs to root around on the ground looking for crap to eat! Or training my dog to view people as "treat" machines!

I much rather train my dogs to ignore people which my GSD does quite well! He only takes treats from someone he knows very well and that does not occur on first meetings! 

No one gets in his face without going through me first! And that includes family and friends! Had a few hurt butts over that one over the years but he is my responsibility and until I am convinced that he is OK with "company" no one touches him!

He is quite content to remain in his "place" when company comes over and observe the proceedings. Works out just fine for everyone involved. 

So you had a "wake up call" no matter now you know. Break it down and make changes. 

The precipitating event? That should not have happened! Start here to make changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9w1aGQCZ2w

And of course, my favorite..."Who Pets my Puppy or Dog."
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7165106-post3.html

It is the first link in that thread along with a full disclosure on the parts of it "I" recommend. 

I do this with every dog I work with at (rescue.) I don't know these dogs, I don't know how they are with people or other dogs?? I don't care because know of "that" will be an issue for me or him because, I don't allow anyone in a dogs face until "I" know them and show them how "I" expect them to behave.

Pretty much that simple in my view. Hope this helps???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> First lesson in dealing with dogs on the edge! Keep your mouth shut! Pretty much as simple as that.


You know...I apologize for a very cryptic short and rather cryptic remark. :blush:

No one learns anything by doing things like that! We are all here to help others I would hope??

I do believe I can do better than I did. So while the "keep your mouth shut" advise...still stands. Perhaps this can better explain where that comes from?? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

That's what I should done but you kinda set me off, so...yeah sorry my bad!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

....I like this ! 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Findlay*  
_Hi and thanks. 
Our trainer showed me how to introduce the guy and Finn in a non-threatening way. 
Leash my pup. Put distance between him and the guy. Throw out high value treat ie chicken leading to the guy, with the guy's back to Finn and a treat in his open hand but the hand is behind his back. 
Then I walk Finn through the treats leading up to the guys hand._

Yeah and uh no!Sounds like a "positive" only type and I have no idea why some folks insist, on changing whatever dog they have into a lab??? No offense meant to Lab owners.  


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Findlay*  
_There's more to the process and I was polite and listened to the trainer But I've no interest in Finn making friends with this guy. No offense to him, I just feel it's not important that he and Finn become friendly. 
I do appreciate your help. Thank you._

In my "opinion" you made the right call. I'm not a fan of "strangers" giving my dogs treats! Not a fan of "training" my dogs to root around on the ground looking for crap to eat! Or training my dog to view people as "treat" machines!"

...................For a GSD? Ideally dog should be neutral to strangers. I would have the dog focused on anything but this person. 

This throws some doubt on the trainers knowledge .


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree with Carm and Rocky. That is terrible advice from the trainer. You could have a dog following treats to someone, get to the person and think "oh, no, how'd I get this close!" and then actually have a much worse problem- maybe even a bite. Bad idea, to try to force a dog to be friends. With my dogs that are not naturally social, I train them to be neutral and defer to me. And make sure they come when called every time.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I agree with Carm and Rocky. That is terrible advice from the trainer. You could have a dog following treats to someone, get to the person and think "oh, no, how'd I get this close!" and then actually have a much worse problem- maybe even a bite. Bad idea, to try to force a dog to be friends. With my dogs that are not naturally social, I train them to be neutral and defer to me. And make sure they come when called every time.


In a Michael Ellis video he does address just that point!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs

It's a three part series and I'm not sure where it is?? But in essence, they were having some folks give treats and some folks not. And it turned out that "some" dogs did not take well to the no treat folks and with that situation, it was no treat??? Screw you and wham!! Dog bite city...they stopped doing that!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> This throws some doubt on the trainers knowledge .


Spoken like a true diplomat!

I don't have a high tolerance for uh "crap" and tend to make it pretty clear. There are tons of that kind of advice on "Boxeworld" not to be confused with "Boxerforum." The kind of advice given by that trainer was getting dogs PTS all the time on BF. 

I told one lazy member that did not want to "walk" his Boxer that perhaps he should consider rehoming his Boxer and get a Bull Dog?? That "advice" was not received well!! 

Good luck to anyone that goes there for a dog with real issues! It's a breeding ground for the clueless (in my view) perhaps this "trainer"... is a member of BW??? If a cookie won't "fix it" PTS will! 

Yeah... I had to quit that board.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks everyone who replied to my thread. I will definitely keep an eye on Finn re behavior changes as Dutchkarin suggested. And to answer Dalko43, The guy was on my property when Finn crashed thru the screen door. 
We begin Advanced Obedience in 2 weeks. I've watched the class...so many distractions and the dogs have lots of self control and the handlers have lots of control over their dogs. 
Not quite sure how Finn and I qualified to get moved up : )
Take care Everyone. 
Happy end to the GSD days of summer 2015. 











Sent from my iPhone


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