# My vet is pushing for a spay at 6 months.



## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

My vet wants to spay our dog at 6 months, I really DO NOT want to spay her but I hear that if you don't spay your GSD within her first couple heat cycles that her cancer rate goes up by 54% or some crazy number like that. I spayed my cat and regret it, she never filled up in weight, she is incredibly small (5 lbs) is afraid of her own shadow. 
I don't know what to do, I want my pup to grow big and healthy, but I don't want her to get cancer. Vet checkup is today.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

spaying before the first heat reduces the risk of breast cancer. However, it has been linked to increased risk of other cancers as well as muscle and skeletal injuries.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Besketball (Apr 27, 2016)

Spaying decreases the chance of certain cancers and increases the chance of others. I am choosing not to neuter my dog until he's eighteen months or so, because the hormones help them grow correctly.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I would wait until she's about a year old?

That is if you can manage her during season so that you want have an oops breeding.

Does your vet care for many German Shepherds?

Some vets have a tendency to spay early. One of my vets I really liked told me he routinely recommends spaying at 6 month if he doesn't know the people very well. Knowing I was a responsible dog owner he wanted to wait at least a year.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Just say "no." Over and over again. If need be, research the updated information on the long term ramifications of spaying at different ages. Print it out and hand it to your vet. They need to be updated.

Breast cancer can be detected and survived. Hemangio is fatal because it is not detected early. None of my dogs have yet developed breast cancer. One had a tumor in his neck @ 16 (he was intact all his life), but one spayed at about 6 months developed hemangio - with expensive operation and treatment she survived another 6 months and died far younger than 16. BTE 2 (my current eldest) was spayed at about 5 yo only because she was having false pregnancies, BTY 2 (current youngster) will be 3 this fall. She is still intact.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Common sense. Spaying is removing a major part of the endocrine system. Sex hormones play a vital role in growth and immunity for the life time of the pup. 

What would happen if you took a human prepubescent girl and had her undergo a hysterectomy? How would that effect her growth?

I'm in the never spay camp - unless there is a medical problem that can directly be treated by spaying. 

Biologicalyou speaking humans and dogs are not all that different. Very similar organ systems, immune responses etc. When an adult human woman has a hysterectomy she ends up taking home so cocktail of pills to replace the hormones she lost. 

Sex hormones are important for bone density and muscle mass. Once again, think why little old ladies are at such a risk of osteoporosis - the natural loss of estrogen from age = weaker bones.

Spaying reduces the cancer risk for cancers and infection directly related to the reproductive system. NOT spaying reduces the risk of many cancers, including devastating ones like hemangio and bone cancer - which can take a dog young. Not spaying also reduces the risk of muscos-skeleto injuries like ACL tears. Also intact animals have fewer immunity issues.

Really research it. Especially pyometra, which is the biggest risk for an intact females and something you should know the signs of if you have one. Overall every time I make a list of pros and cons - the side that says keeping my dog intact has a much much longer list of pros.

The thing to remember about vets - they love dogs in plural. Not your dog. They often recommend what is good for the dog population as a whole. Which due to overpopulation and the massive amount of irresponsible owners is a blanket spay/neuter policy. Plus let's not forget that surgery lines their pockets. I usually just tell vets or people who push surgery "I am concerned about the health ramifications related to the endocrine deficiency, so I am keeping my dog intact" quick and easy way to show that you've done your homework. If they still push after that, i'd find a new vet.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

a lot of people see the vet for the puppy shots and exams and then never take their dog back unless there is some medical emergency or the rabies shots. Plus, there is a huge public opinion that altered pet = responsible owner. Add in the idea that altering your pet is the only way to stop the overpopulation problem.

however, in Europe where spay/neuter is almost unheard of, they don't have the problems that we have in the US.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Dainerra said:


> however, in Europe where spay/neuter is almost unheard of, they don't have the problems that we have in the US.


I'm sorry, but huh? What do you mean they don't have the problems we have. All of Europe is free of dog issues? I don't understand. Lots of European countries have terrible feral/stray cat and dog problems. Europe is a huge area, with many countries.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> a lot of people see the vet for the puppy shots and exams and then never take their dog back unless there is some medical emergency or the rabies shots. Plus, there is a huge public opinion that altered pet = responsible owner. Add in the idea that altering your pet is the only way to stop the overpopulation problem.
> 
> *however, in Europe where spay/neuter is almost unheard of, they don't have the problems that we have in the US.*


 I was with you until the part in Bold ...
that said, it's time for this:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

gsdsar said:


> I'm sorry, but huh? What do you mean they don't have the problems we have. All of Europe is free of dog issues? I don't understand. Lots of European countries have terrible feral/stray cat and dog problems. Europe is a huge area, with many countries.


I should say they don't have the rampant "oops" litters of owned dogs that we have in many parts of the US. Feral dogs are an entirely different matter.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> I should say they don't have the rampant "oops" litters of owned dogs that we have in many parts of the US. Feral dogs are an entirely different matter.


Street dogs are a huge problem in Europe. I wouldn't call them feral because they are approachable and follow people around. They might be the unwanted but they got that way from oops litters. My son spent time in 6 countries in Europe and dogs were everywhere. People would kick them to get them to stop following them or chase them into the street. he said it was quite disturbing to see. So maybe if they had more spay and neuter dogs wouldn't be everywhere.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I'm sorry, but huh? What do you mean they don't have the problems we have. All of Europe is free of dog issues? I don't understand. Lots of European countries have terrible feral/stray cat and dog problems. Europe is a huge area, with many countries.


I lived in a Western Europe country for many years. Never did I find a stray dog, males and females were intact unless they needed surgery for medical reasons. Castrated males were unheard of at that time, didn't see them. Ironically you could not find a nice pup in a shelter, let alone litters. People keep the females in heat at home so no over population. Simple. I did walk my dogs in dog parks without major trouble regarding fighting. Never encountered a male with testicular cancer either (overrated in the US as an argument to convince an owner at last resort).


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> I lived in a Western Europe country for many years. Never did I find a stray dog, males and females were intact unless they needed surgery for medical reasons. Castrated males were unheard of at that time, didn't see them. Ironically you could not find a nice pup in a shelter, let alone litters. People keep the females in heat at home so no over population. Simple. I did walk my dogs in dog parks without major trouble regarding fighting. Never encountered a male with testicular cancer either (overrated in the US as an argument to convince an owner at last resort).


In my state, it is mandated by law for rescues / shelters to speuter dogs and they practice pediatric speutering. It is next to impossible to find a puppy in any shelter around here. Adult dogs yes, puppies no.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I lived in a Western Europe country for many years. Never did I find a stray dog, males and females were intact unless they needed surgery for medical reasons. Castrated males were unheard of at that time, didn't see them. Ironically you could not find a nice pup in a shelter, let alone litters. People keep the females in heat at home so no over population. Simple. I did walk my dogs in dog parks without major trouble regarding fighting. Never encountered a male with testicular cancer either (overrated in the US as an argument to convince an owner at last resort).


Hmm, I lived in Europe for a while too....and they had a huge stray dog and cat problem. I don't fear having oops pregnancies, because I live in the city and don't let my dog out to run through the woods (there are no woods here). The ONLY concern I have is my dog getting cancer from not spaying her. But Ive read many articles against spaying, they say the dog keeps her drive, grows much more naturally and bigger, stuff like that. My family does not want to spay her either, its a really big operation for a female dog. Its like a hysterectomy, for a boy its a small and quick operation, but for a female its huge. Many dogs are never the same afterwards. I don't know, it's a really tough decision, I don't want to deal with blood all over my floors either. 
I have a lot of thinking to do.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

I had to have Layla spayed by 16 weeks (shelter rule otherwise they were going to fine me lots and lots of money) 

It makes me and her vet sick. If I could have waited I would have. Layla's vet recommends not spaying or neutering.


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

Honestly its probably because most pet dogs and cats that they deal with will get spayed at that time, people who have a dog for just a family pet and aren't experienced or very educated dog owners do it at 6 months so they don't have to deal with a heat cycle and believe everything that vets want, and since they are just pets there really isn't a reason to keep them intact of longer of many people plus they don't know about the hormones helping growing and just follow the vet, my female lab was spayed at around or just over a year, and passed away last week from a totally different cancer. (spleen) 
Did you tell the vet you were planning on spaying but not until around a year? (or whenever you want to) and that you will be very responsible and deal with the heat cycle without letting her around male dogs etc.. and that the reasons that you want to wait? Personally I had seen the difference of spaying early and keeping intact and I personally wait until at least a year maybe 2 to spay or neuter just for the fact of hormones and growing. 
I would just say to your vet that you have made your decision and you are going to wait, but are planning on getting it done, just not at 6 months and you will deal with a heat cycle very responsibly. If they don't respect your decision then I don't know what to say you might want to find a new vet.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Suzy25 said:


> Honestly its probably because most pet dogs and cats that they deal with will get spayed at that time, people who have a dog for just a family pet and aren't experienced or very educated dog owners do it at 6 months so they don't have to deal with a heat cycle and believe everything that vets want, and since they are just pets there really isn't a reason to keep them intact of longer of many people plus they don't know about the hormones helping growing and just follow the vet, my female lab was spayed at around or just over a year, and passed away last week from a totally different cancer. (spleen)
> Did you tell the vet you were planning on spaying but not until around a year? (or whenever you want to) and that you will be very responsible and deal with the heat cycle without letting her around male dogs etc.. and that the reasons that you want to wait? Personally I had seen the difference of spaying early and keeping intact and I personally wait until at least a year maybe 2 to spay or neuter just for the fact of hormones and growing.
> I would just say to your vet that you have made your decision and you are going to wait, but are planning on getting it done, just not at 6 months and you will deal with a heat cycle very responsibly. If they don't respect your decision then I don't know what to say you might want to find a new vet.


The vet is very nice and knowledgeable. I told her I might not get her spayed, she looked at me as if I had 3 heads. I told her I want her to fully mature and grow. She kept pushing for me to get it done at 6 months because it cuts the risk of female cancers by about half. I still don't know what to do. Leaning towards not spaying.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Actually. The rate of "breast" cancer increases to 25% if you do not spay AFTER 2 yrs of age. Then each yr the % increases.


Let your dog grow and mature till at least 2 yrs and then revisit. If you want that is.
You own your dog. Not your vet.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

The go to argument that veterinarians tell their clients is that neutering eliminates testicular cancer and prostatitis. Spaying eliminates breast, ovarian and uterine cancer. What they don’t tell people is that at least one study shows that intact animals live LONGER. Spaying and neutering not only potentially shortens the lifespan but also has been correlated with various illnesses. Obesity (sometimes not even responsive to extreme calorie restriction), osteoarthritis, Anterior Cruciate Rupture, diabetes, hypothyroidism, prostatic cancer, hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, urinary incontinence, urinary tract infection, juvenile vulva are just a few conditions that are overly represented in spayed and neutered pets. We will discuss some of these correlations and published findings in our blogs. - See more at: Spaying and Neutering | Angry Vet


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Dr. Sue, Cancer vet (via Angry vet)


Dr Sue Cancer Vet | Angry Vet


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> The go to argument that veterinarians tell their clients is that neutering eliminates testicular cancer and prostatitis. Spaying eliminates breast, ovarian and uterine cancer. What they don’t tell people is that at least one study shows that intact animals live LONGER. Spaying and neutering not only potentially shortens the lifespan but also has been correlated with various illnesses. Obesity (sometimes not even responsive to extreme calorie restriction), osteoarthritis, Anterior Cruciate Rupture, diabetes, hypothyroidism, prostatic cancer, hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, urinary incontinence, urinary tract infection, juvenile vulva are just a few conditions that are overly represented in spayed and neutered pets. We will discuss some of these correlations and published findings in our blogs. - See more at: Spaying and Neutering | Angry Vet


My previous older female German Shepherd was spayed at 6 months per the breeder contract. She lived to a nice old age but died of cancer in the general reproductive area. There was no uterus but it developed somewhere around there


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Vets don't pay your bills. Tell them your wishes. Do your research and choose what's best for you and your dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I'm sorry, but huh? What do you mean they don't have the problems we have. All of Europe is free of dog issues? I don't understand. Lots of European countries have terrible feral/stray cat and dog problems. Europe is a huge area, with many countries.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> In my state, it is mandated by law for rescues / shelters to speuter dogs and they practice pediatric speutering. It is next to impossible to find a puppy in any shelter around here. Adult dogs yes, puppies no.


Same here and the reason I went to breeders so I can make my own decisions to take care of their health.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would rather my dog get cancer because I chose not to perform a surgery to prevent it, than for my dog to get cancer because I chose to perform a surgery as a preventive. 

I don't alter unless there is a problem with the reproductive organs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So these studies are done to spay/neuter or not to. I guess I would need more info on the studies either way. Like vaccines on the dogs in the studies? Are the dogs in the studies over vaccinated? Minimal vaccines? General health of dog in study? Were dogs excluded for any reason? What kind of diet are they on? Are they eating a very processed food? Genetics? Is cancer in the lines? As someone pointed out in another thread to disprove a study--there are a lot of variables. If those variables are all over the map no one will ever be able to say spaying/neutering or keeping intact causes anything. The only thing that is definite is that an intact female can get pyo. There is really no other proof in either direction. They might be getting close as far as hip Dysplasia correlation with early spay/neuter, but they can't state that as a fact if the dog wasn't xrayed beforehand and already had it. 

You just can't take a group of dogs(especially the same breed that is prone to certain cancers to begin with) and say ok we have 300 dogs with all different backgrounds and 30% of the intact got this, 40% neutered got this, etc. they have to get dogs and put them into groups based on other variables that resemble one another for a study to get results that are accurate. Well that is my thoughts anyway, it seems to be the common sense thing to do but yet they don't do it that way.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Check your city and county ordinances about spay/neuter. We have to spay/neuter our pets according to county law. If we don't we them must apply for a special permit to have an unaltered pet. Does your screen name represent where you live, NYC? If so, then I would do the spay, what if something happens, an unplanned pregnancy, having puppies in an apartment is not a good idea.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

selzer said:


> I would rather my dog get cancer because I chose not to perform a surgery to prevent it, than for my dog to get cancer because I chose to perform a surgery as a preventive.
> 
> I don't alter unless there is a problem with the reproductive organs.


Have you ever had a dog die young?


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Gretchen said:


> Check your city and county ordinances about spay/neuter. We have to spay/neuter our pets according to county law. If we don't we them must apply for a special permit to have an unaltered pet. Does your screen name represent where you live, NYC? If so, then I would do the spay, what if something happens, an unplanned pregnancy, having puppies in an apartment is not a good idea.


I have a townhouse. I am not at all concerned about unplanned pregnancies, we can't let our dog run around the neighborhood. I understand some people live on a ranch or the woods they let their dogs run free but theres almost no stray dogs around here. My main concern is the dog will get cancer, but then again she can get cancer from the spay as well. Not to mention spaying weakens bones and joints, and in a breed notorious for hip-dysplasia I want to prevent this as much as possible. I also read that spaying can stunt their growth and development. I want a big healthy dog that is developed as can be.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NYCgsd said:


> Have you ever had a dog die young?


Yes. 

But I never had a dog get mammary cancer or testicular cancer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> I have a townhouse. I am not at all concerned about unplanned pregnancies, we can't let our dog run around the neighborhood. I understand some people live on a ranch or the woods they let their dogs run free but theres almost no stray dogs around here. My main concern is the dog will get cancer, but then again she can get cancer from the spay as well. Not to mention spaying weakens bones and joints, and in a breed notorious for hip-dysplasia I want to prevent this as much as possible. I also read that spaying can stunt their growth and development. I want a big healthy dog that is developed as can be.


I wouldn't say that early spaying stunts growth per se. In fact, it can increase the time that growth plates stay open on the long bones, even more so with earlier spaying, resulting in a taller, leggier dog, hence the weaker bones and joint problems. Dogs spayed early don't develop secondary characteristics, and if spayed later, can lose much of those characteristics as they are hormone dependent but are far less noticeable on females although they will mature, not to be confused with secondary characteristics. Weight distribution as well as composition come into play as those traits are hormone driven as well. Of course, all those these are general expectations, results can vary with individual dogs.

From the studies I have seen, healthwise, it is about 50/50 for benefits of spaying or not spaying. Neutering easily favors leaving intact. 

There is also a partial spay, where the ovaries are left intact. Few vets do it and you will have to check around.

Spaying and neutering can have a major impact on temperament, depends on the dog.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I wouldn't say that early spaying stunts growth per se. In fact, it can increase the time that growth plates stay open on the long bones, even more so with earlier spaying, resulting in a taller, leggier dog, hence the weaker bones and joint problems. Dogs spayed early don't develop secondary characteristics, and if spayed later, can lose much of those characteristics as they are hormone dependent but are far less noticeable on females although they will mature, not to be confused with secondary characteristics. Weight distribution as well as composition come into play as those traits are hormone driven as well. Of course, all those these are general expectations, results can vary with individual dogs.
> 
> From the studies I have seen, healthwise, it is about 50/50 for benefits of spaying or not spaying. Neutering easily favors leaving intact.
> 
> ...


What are these secondary characteristics?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

NYCgsd said:


> I have a townhouse. I am not at all concerned about unplanned pregnancies, we can't let our dog run around the neighborhood. I understand some people live on a ranch or the woods they let their dogs run free but theres almost no stray dogs around here. My main concern is the dog will get cancer, but then again she can get cancer from the spay as well. Not to mention spaying weakens bones and joints, and in a breed notorious for hip-dysplasia I want to prevent this as much as possible. I also read that spaying can stunt their growth and development. I want a big healthy dog that is developed as can be.


Our dog was spayed at 6 months, she is 88.5lbs and not overweight.
Her growth did not get stunted. She was already in heat (nobody knew) when she was spayed, so the surgery cost a bit more.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Gretchen said:


> Our dog was spayed at 6 months, she is 88.5lbs and not overweight.
> Her growth did not get stunted. She was already in heat (nobody knew) when she was spayed, so the surgery cost a bit more.


Mind posting or sending me some pics of her please? A bit curious as to her shape. And did you notice any changes in her prey drive or behavior before and after surgery?
I have a friend who always gets female dogs and never gets them spayed. The last one died at around 8 yrs old, the one before that at 13. They are APBT and he uses them to guard his yard, garage, driveway. I have to say they were aggressive towards strangers but as sweet as can be to friends and family, but would bark at every single passerby.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> What are these secondary characteristics?


Secondary characteristics as in appearing masculine or feminine, weight distribution and composition, less puppyish. A bigger head in a male, a more refined less coarse head in a female among other traits.

Here are some examples: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/129037-secondary-sex-characteristics.html


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

NYCgsd said:


> Mind posting or sending me some pics of her please? A bit curious as to her shape. And did you notice any changes in her prey drive or behavior before and after surgery?
> I have a friend who always gets female dogs and never gets them spayed. The last one died at around 8 yrs old, the one before that at 13. They are APBT and he uses them to guard his yard, garage, driveway. I have to say they were aggressive towards strangers but as sweet as can be to friends and family, but would bark at every single passerby.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/617194-super-bowl-funday-pics.html

She has very strong drive - it was almost too much when she was younger


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

llombardo said:


> So these studies are done to spay/neuter or not to. I guess I would need more info on the studies either way. Like vaccines on the dogs in the studies? Are the dogs in the studies over vaccinated? Minimal vaccines? General health of dog in study? Were dogs excluded for any reason? What kind of diet are they on? Are they eating a very processed food? Genetics? Is cancer in the lines? As someone pointed out in another thread to disprove a study--there are a lot of variables. If those variables are all over the map no one will ever be able to say spaying/neutering or keeping intact causes anything. The only thing that is definite is that an intact female can get pyo. There is really no other proof in either direction. They might be getting close as far as hip Dysplasia correlation with early spay/neuter, but they can't state that as a fact if the dog wasn't xrayed beforehand and already had it.
> 
> You just can't take a group of dogs(especially the same breed that is prone to certain cancers to begin with) and say ok we have 300 dogs with all different backgrounds and 30% of the intact got this, 40% neutered got this, etc. they have to get dogs and put them into groups based on other variables that resemble one another for a study to get results that are accurate. Well that is my thoughts anyway, it seems to be the common sense thing to do but yet they don't do it that way.


There is never going to be a perfect study. But there are plenty of good ones out there across several species. 

Mammals aren't all that different from one another. We have the same systems that work in mostly the same way. That's why we are able to use animal studies to pioneer new medical treatments, why we have dogs receiving medication designed for humans to much success. 

Look at the thousands of studies done on humans for endocrine deficiencies. We have studies dating back over 100 years showing that eunuchs from the ottoman empire had skeletal issues. Case studies showing athletes with low testosterone are at higher risk for injury. Look at all the physical and mental side effects of similar surgeries in people. 

Or look at the ramifications of the widespread pediatric spay and neuter in ferrets. The rate of adrenal disease there. 

The endocrine system works with all other systems in the body. Sex hormones are so important for bone density and muscle to fat distribution. We have studies in dogs showing that neutered animals have poor immune responses - more likely to react to vaccinations. Studies that show that intact dogs lose cognitive ability at slower rate then neutered ones in their senior years. 

It goes way beyond just cancer and hip dysplasia. Cutting out glands effects has a wide reaching effect in the body. 

My senior has mild to moderate cognitive impairment. He has good days and bad days. The bad days are absolutely heart breaking. Poor guy gets confused and scared and doesn't recognize me. It's horrible seeing him fall apart and not being able to help him because I make it worse. I would rather loose a bitch quickly to pyo if it reduces the risk of this type of heartache.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Careful with comparing people to dogs. There are a lot of major differences. A few...

Women "cycle" every month. Dog (bitches) every six months, wolves every year. Women have obvious secondary sexual characteristics and are noticeably weaker and smaller than men. Bitches may be smaller as far as weight but are generally physically equal to a dog of the same size-weight and don't have any super obvious secondary sexual characteristics. Women go through menopause, bitches do not. The hormones cycle differently throughout the year and month. Women usually have one child at a time and practice prolonged child rearing of a good 18 years in many countries. Dogs raise their average of 4-10 pups to weaning and that's about it. 

Humans and dogs are not the same animal. There are plenty of medications that would kill a dog that humans can take with impunity. 

Certainly do your research and make the best decision on spaying and neutering, but don't be lured into the "would you do this to a child" trap. Not the same animal, not the same issues at all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think Babs is in menopause. She hasn't cycled in quite a while. 

Actually in GSDs Masculine and Feminine should be obvious. 

And yes, dogs neutered early are often leggy and look bitchy. 
Females, it's a little different. I haven't seen many doggy-looking bitches. They do not grow a heavy mane.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I think Babs is in menopause. She hasn't cycled in quite a while.
> 
> Actually in GSDs Masculine and Feminine should be obvious.
> 
> ...


I forgot about that, they can grow those heavier, longer coats, sometimes males do too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I always worry about spay-incontinence. This does happen sometimes. And, I think that would put a damper on owning a female, if you have a pup that developed spay incontinence after a spay, and for 12 years, you are dealing with that. Ugh! I know there are worse things, but probably lots of people wouldn't deal with it. And who wants to treat a dog with drugs for incontinence starting as a young pup?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Careful with comparing people to dogs. There are a lot of major differences. A few...
> 
> Women "cycle" every month. Dog (bitches) every six months, wolves every year. Women have obvious secondary sexual characteristics and are noticeably weaker and smaller than men. Bitches may be smaller as far as weight but are generally physically equal to a dog of the same size-weight and don't have any super obvious secondary sexual characteristics. Women go through menopause, bitches do not. The hormones cycle differently throughout the year and month. Women usually have one child at a time and practice prolonged child rearing of a good 18 years in many countries. Dogs raise their average of 4-10 pups to weaning and that's about it.
> 
> ...


From a biological stand point there are far more similarities between dogs and humans then differences. There is a huge overlap between veterinary medicine and human medicine because our biological systems respond in near identical ways. It's all part of the joy of belonging to the mammalia class. We lactate. We have hair. We birth live young (Yes there are exceptions). We are warm blooded. 

Just look at mice. Mice have estrus cycles like dogs, they give birth to 3 - 14 young at a time, like dogs, the raise them till weaning age, and all that jazz. 

Yet mice are the number one choice for animal models in medical research. Even for research involving cancers and other disease of the female reproduction system. 

If there wasn't a significant enough crossover between the species, so that findings in mice studies could be applied in human research - there would not be billions spent on it each year. We would have domesticated a small menstruating animal like the elephant shrew for our medical research instead.

We know how sex hormones work. We know they do very very similar things across species. Testosterone does the same thing in a stallion, a dog and a man. It stands to reason that removing the hormone would have the same effect across species as well. 

And the few few studies that HAVE been done on companion animals seem to support that. 

1901 - Medical studies on eunuchs show skeletal issues.
1995 - Case study in sports medicine show low testosterone increases risk of injury
2013 - UC Davis study on dogs show neutered animals an increase in musco-skeletal disorders and injuries (amongst other things)

I don't like the "would you you do this to a child" line because I find it incendiary. It's not about treating dogs like humans to me. It's about treating them like an organism with a mammalian endocrine system, circulatory system, nervous system, musco-skeletal system, digestive system etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

When dogs can live as long as humans, then and only then can anyone say they are similar. Until a dog can live to be 80 yrs like a human(physically) I don't think the similarities are there. Their organs age at an alarming rate. Why? Because they are different. Lots of medicines can be interchanged between humans and dogs, is that a problem? I almost think it is. I think that there is a lot more research that needs to be done with dogs period.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We spayed our current and two prior females after they had 1 heat. Halo was 13 months old when we had her spayed. The overall risk of mammary cancer is fairly low, so even if you wait a couple of heats and then do it, the increased risk from waiting a bit longer isn't necessarily that much of a gamble. We had preliminary x-rays done on her hips and elbows at the same time. 

If you do decide to spay her at some point, it's best to wait at least a month and preferable two or more after she's finished a heat, in order for her body to return to normal.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Gretchen said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/617194-super-bowl-funday-pics.html
> 
> She has very strong drive - it was almost too much when she was younger


Nice pics, great looking dog. Do you live in Malibu? Looks nice.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Although I no longer prefer to spay my bitches, I've had several that were spayed. None of them developed spay incontenence.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Regardless of studies, the dogs used, the variables, and / or the results, the bottom line is the hormones are there, by nature, to work synergistically with other hormones in the body, be it dog, cat, monkey, or human. How they work together per independent species may vary greatly, or not, but man cannot create a life, dog or human. Who then are we to say that man knows better and Mother Nature is broken?


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Regardless of studies, the dogs used, the variables, and / or the results, the bottom line is the hormones are there, by nature, to work synergistically with other hormones in the body, be it dog, cat, monkey, or human. How they work together per independent species may vary greatly, or not, but man cannot create a life, dog or human. Who then are we to say that man knows better and Mother Nature is broken?


Well man sort of messed with mother nature by bad breeding. We sacrificed health for beauty. I'm sure the GSD of 1900 had far less health problems than todays. 
It's an interesting topic up for debate. Again, I still have time to decide but as of right now I'm leaning towards no spay.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Well man sort of messed with mother nature by bad breeding. We sacrificed health for beauty. I'm sure the GSD of 1900 had far less health problems than todays.
> It's an interesting topic up for debate. Again, I still have time to decide but as of right now I'm leaning towards no spay.


Reputable breeders of today breed for temperament and health first and are doing a fantastic job.

I highly doubt that the endocrine and other biological systems have changed since 1900.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm not sure a male praying mantis or black widow would agree that nature's way is always the best way. (joke). 

But I totally agree that hormones do play a role in a body's system, regardless of species. Sometimes good and sometimes (for that particular organism) bad. But a role that is meant to be there for the species long-term survival, for sure. Nature is ruthless. 

I believe keeping a male dog intact is the healthiest way to go, while with bitches it's a bit of a toss up. But for practical purposes, for how far removed most people today are from understanding and living with the "animal" part of a dog, I think most households should wait 1-2 years and spay-neuter. Because other factors come into play than just pure dog health. 

There was a psychiatrist a while back that raised a female chimp as he would a child. Chimps share 98% of human genome, I think he was trying to study nurture over nature. The chimp did really well until puberty. She ate with the family, had her own bedroom, learned sign language, and expressed a lot of complicated emotion. Then puberty hit and she became dangerous and out of control. They had to give her up. Hormones certainly play very strong roles in mammals in many ways. 

While mammals all share the same organ systems, lactate, etc. there are huge differences between people and dogs that need to be considered when making health decisions for our dogs. Llombardo said that more research needs to be done on dogs in general, and I fully agree. I simply don't like seeing a ton of parallels drawn between humans and dogs when making important health decisions in general, not just around spay and neuter. 

There is a fascinating book out called "Are we Smart Enough to know how Smart Animals Are" I highly recommend a read. The author says what I'm trying to say here much better than I can on a forum. But basically he writes how animals and humans are different. Not better or worse but different. 

I'm not trying to be incendiary by saying we shouldn't compare children to dogs. Rather that we should consider our dogs as the unique animal species they are, filling a very unique role in human society.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> There is a fascinating book out called "Are we Smart Enough to know how Smart Animals Are" I highly recommend a read. The author says what I'm trying to say here much better than I can on a forum. But basically he writes how animals and humans are different. Not better or worse but different.
> 
> I'm not trying to be incendiary by saying we shouldn't compare children to dogs. Rather that we should consider our dogs as the unique animal species they are, filling a very unique role in human society.


I will keep an eye open for that book. I love a good geeky read. 

I remember a thread that asked, "is it humane to neuter and spay" and more than one person said..."how would you feel". Honestly, how we would feel has nothing to do with it. And once done, most dogs really don't care. In fact life might be easier (she says as her intact male is whining over the she pup in the crate who is on her 2nd week of heat).

My vet was honest about the pros and cons. He still recommends a full spay at 6 months but does not nag about it. He understands why we are choosing to wait but also says that we just don't have enough information yet to really understand if waiting or doing an OSS is better than a full spay.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't like to spay or neuter my animals and both my dogs are intact. But their situation is not natural as they would have 2 litters every year if we let nature dictate. Not being able to get pregnant, birth and lactate will undoubtedly affect the health status from at least the females as well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't like to spay or neuter my animals and both my dogs are intact. But their situation is not natural as they would have 2 litters every year if we let nature dictate. Not being able to get pregnant, birth and lactate will undoubtedly affect the health status from at least the females as well.


Yes, and no. From a health point of view, the uterine horns get blasted with progesterone whether or not they become pregnant, so the female's body does go through something like pregnancy even if they do not become pregnant. 

And, not every bitch who is bred takes, so while usually in nature you would expect 2 litters per year (which really cannot be compared to a female having two babies in two years -- we are talking 9 weeks, not 9 months), not all females get pregnant on every cycle. 

I think that not getting pregnant is a little less invasive than removing the equipment that produces the hormones, etc.


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## Malakhov (Jan 2, 2010)

I spay and neuter them as soon as I can, never had any problems. My first male was between 100 and 100lbs and in great shape. My female was between 65 and 75 lbs and in great shape. I don't pay any attention to these claims and researches. There's always one contradicting the other.

If you go ahead and read and trust all the new claims, you'll go insane and worry too much.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OMG! Please don't dismiss all the latest studies! They are of vital importance in making a decision for what is best for you dog.

And please don't accept one person's anecdotal experience as the gold standard on whether to spay your dog or not and at what age. 

The new studies have come up with many new findings and it is not in your dog's better interest to early spay before they are done growing among other health and temperamental issues. If you ignore the new studies, it is your dog that will suffer the consequences. 

There are many people on this forum that early spay, wait until a dog is done growing to spay, and those who choose to leave their dogs intact. Do make a point to talk with all of them and make an informed decision based on the experience of many coupled with the new studies so you can be confident that no matter what you choose, you know that you made the right decision.


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

Sorry, but all of the research I've done has pointed to one thing: early fixing = BAD BAD BAD.

I don't blame _some_ people for doing it. And shelters? VERY understandable. Most owners simply don't know how to handle intact animals properly, or worse yet, they just don't care. 

But, there are still some owners out there that get puppies from breeders, shelters, etc. and have the responsibility of making an informed decision on behalf of their pet. If they don't feel like they're up to it, then I don't really blame 'em for spaying/neutering after 6 months or so. The only reason I didn't opt for a 1-year spay is because I feel comfortable enough keeping Butters intact until the 2-year mark.

I could refuse to spay her altogether - it could end up being healthier in the long run - but she comes from a BYB; I don't know her history. And, in addition, I really don't feel confident in my ability to keep her away from male dogs for the next decade or so. It's just too risky. So, in my situation, 2 years is the most ideal time for both Butters and I. 

Anyway, my point is: every situation is different. For some people, 1 - 1/2 years is best. Others? 2 years, or not at all. That is their choice and I respect that. I also respect shelters and rescues that fix every animal that comes their way. It's an unfortunate necessity. 

But owners that have a choice and have done all the reading, weighing the pros/cons, etc., but still choose ignore the facts and fix before 6 months? Ye~ah.. I'm gonna judge 'em for that.


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## Malakhov (Jan 2, 2010)

To each his own, had GSDs for decades, my parents had GSDs for decades, never had our dogs suffer from early neutering or spaying. If you believe it, good for you, if you don't, good for you. I'm not someone who gives a whole lot of credit to new studies unless it is 100% approved by the majority of the people involved in the domain, and this is not the case here.

If you're on this forum, reading and learning about your dog's race, loving it, taking care of it, giving it all the care you can, then in no way will I judge you for your beliefs, we're all pretty darn good owners I'd say.

But like I said, to each his own.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I personally would wait to spay a female until she has had at least one heat cycle and is at least 12 months old.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's a breed, not a race. 



Malakhov said:


> To each his own, had GSDs for decades, my parents had GSDs for decades, never had our dogs suffer from early neutering or spaying. If you believe it, good for you, if you don't, good for you. I'm not someone who gives a whole lot of credit to new studies unless it is 100% approved by the majority of the people involved in the domain, and this is not the case here.
> 
> If you're on this forum, reading and learning about your dog's race, loving it, taking care of it, giving it all the care you can, then in no way will I judge you for your beliefs, we're all pretty darn good owners I'd say.
> 
> But like I said, to each his own.


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