# It is over and done with...



## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

It is over and done with so no lectures!
I was bested by a 3 year old and Rex tied with Hexe.
So now to find homes, the right homes for these possible puppies. 
I will not abort as I am against killing living beings.
I am already torn up about this. Hexe was going to be spayed once she was over 2. But this is what it is now. Hopefully she didn't take.
I need a question list of what to ask potential interested owners.

I already have a note put out and this is what it reads.

"I may possibly have an accidental litter of purebred German Shepherd Dogs. They would not be ready for a new home until the end of July. 
But just in case I am looking for quality homes now. 
These are working line dogs. I am very serious about who may get a puppy. 
I imported both dogs with me from Germany. These are not showline and lay on your couch all day dogs. They will need a job. They will need training. They will also need to be fed a quality dog food, not Science diet or Ol Roy. Currently I feed a mixture of a Raw diet and Taste of the Wild. 
I will be asking for references, vet and a home visit. I will also have a contract between myself and whomever should get a pup. 
These are not papered dogs. We were teaching them Schutzhund before we left Germany and the male has his BH title. The female has an extremely high drive. I expect all the puppies to have high drive also. 
The puppies also will not be big 130lb ill-bred dogs. They will be within standard for height and weight. 
If you don't know the breed please don't reply until you have done some homework. 
Thanks."

I know that I can't control things once they have left my home. But until then I do want to do with is right for the puppies. I bought a multivitamin for Hexe to start taking. 
When can I find out if she is actually pregnant? What else can I do to help ensure her health through the pregnancy and those of the unborn pups?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

KCandMace said:


> I will not abort as I am against killing living beings.


So you're a vegetarian? 

Just joking with you, I know this is an "oops litter" but congratulations on the upcoming puppies anyway. I have no words of wisdom besides don't list them on Craigslist.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Oh boy, when will you know for sure?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think you have a very good handle on how to look for good homes. I'm sure that someone here can point you towards a sample contract.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

You can get an ultra sound done at around 21-28 day's of gestation.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

You could have her spayed now. If the breeding was within the last week or two a spay would be a simple procedure and you are not killing 'living beings' - just eggs.

There's also the Mis-Mate shot and then spay.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

Emoore said:


> So you're a vegetarian?
> 
> Just joking with you, I know this is an "oops litter" but congratulations on the upcoming puppies anyway. I have no words of wisdom besides don't list them on Craigslist.



no plants are living things too. she eats nothing and therefore is either an angel, a god or a fictitious character

just paying devils advocate for fun!

BTW are rex and hexe AKC dogs. if so i'll take a pup! you have beautiful dogs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> You could have her spayed now. If the breeding was within the last week or two a spay would be a simple procedure and you are not killing 'living beings' - just eggs.
> 
> There's also the Mis-Mate shot and then spay.


This makes sense. No worries about your whoops producing future whoops. You were going to spay anyway.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I'd be interested in a male on the lower end of drive, if there was one. I wouldn't care if they were reg or not.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

If you want honest answers, don't lead potential owners into the answer you are looking for. The way you are phrasing and outright saying things just means that whether or not they agree, they will now know what the "proper" answer is.

For example:

You: "What kind of food do you feed?"
Them: "Oh we believe in feeding a high quality food, such as Taste of the Wild. We are even looking into the raw diet! We don't believe in feeding bad quality foods such as Ol' Roy and Science Diet."

You: "What is the average amount of exercise your dog will receive each day?"
Them: "We understand that German Shepherds are active dogs that won't lay on a couch all day, so we plan to exercise them 'a lot.' "

Just a suggestion. Always kills me when people do that....you will never get the truth if you basically tell people what you are looking for. Something else I see on a regular basis are things regarding crating (whether for or against) and whether the dog will live outside. If you write something like, "We don't believe in crating our dogs all day and all night, and if you are planning to keep the dog outside don't even bother contacting us, we are looking for loving indoor homes only!!!" Well, you just guaranteed anyone that thinks otherwise will lie through their teeth.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I will have a talk with our vet Monday morning and see what they say about the shot. Thanks.
No they are not AKC. We brought them from Germany. My boy has white papers from the SV. His parents were not registered but his grandparents were. The girls previous owner would not release anything to us when she was seized by our trainer.


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## Andy-jr. (Mar 1, 2010)

Both parents of my pup have "German pink papers" and I was still able to register him with the AKC.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

White papers are kind of like the ILP papers for the AKC. Just a paper for registering to compete. AKC doesn't recognize them as far as I know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I love the don't lecture me statement. Well tough. 

I do not believe this is an oopse at all. Sorry, if it was an oopse you would have set her up for a spay ASAP. You want puppies. Fine. 

You have two working line dogs with no papers on either. But you want only the best homes. Good luck. 

shoulda woulda coulda but congratulations anyway -- sorry, I think not. 

My problem is that these so-called oopse litters are fuel to those individuals who want legislation requiring speuters prior to six months for all dogs. Thank you so much for participating in the insanity. I would rather someone say that they intentionally bred their too young, untitled, unscreened bitch to their dog to produce a litter, than someone who claims it was an accident. 

Whatever vitamin your are considering giving your bitch, WAIT. Do not supplement her on calcium before the pups are whelped. She actually should not need anything extra for the first half of her pregnancy, It is the last three weeks of her pregnancy when the little suckers start growing like crazy.

If you are feeding a good kibble, ie taste of the wild and raw, then that should be all she needs until you whelp the litter. If you supplement calcium in particular before then, the body will not produce as much on its own. This can actually cause a calcium deficiency when the little boogers are lactating. 

What I do, is feed a good kibble, in the last three weeks, increase the kibble and switch to puppy formula. 

After pups are born, I add cooked chicken, a couple of tablespoons of yogurt to her kibble, and 1-2 hard boiled eggs a day. (My kibble does have grain in it.) At this point, I give her a NuVet vitamin -- 1 per day until weaning. 

I suggest x-raying them on day 56, and trying to get a count. Then you have nine weeks to find homes. 

I agree that you should not lead the potential buyers. 

Look for owners where you train. Then you are likely to find people who will train their pups. Training is a big deal. Most dogs that land in shelters, land there because their owners did not bother to train them. 

You are running into major issues because the best of the best will be totally turned off by your lack of responsibility, breeding untitled, unpapered, unscreened youngsters by accident. They will go to someone who has planned their litter and did the proper steps first. 

I hope you have a relatively small litter and friends and family that want them. 

Frankly, I would not give them a questionaire to fill out. Some people do, and it works for them, but I would talk to people via e-mail or phone first, and get a feel for them. Have the questions in front of you and just nudge them to talk. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. 

Ask about their current pets. If no current pet than a past pet. Ask what training they did. Ask what health concerns there were, what vet they use. Ask what they feed or are intending to feed. Ask how they intend to contain the dog. Each question should spark a bit of conversation. If something does not sound right, gives you a bad feeling, do not sell the puppy.


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## koda00 (Apr 27, 2009)

The breeder that i have says: "must meet in person ". before being approved. I liked that part of her contract.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Selzer, I don't care what you THINK I am doing. Or anyone else for that fact.
I have been on this board long enough to see WHY people don't stay around. It is people like you that want to lecture people when they don't need it. People want information about something particular give them that and not the rest of the trash talk.
It is OUR choice when to get her spayed. WE wanted her to be over 2 and fully mature. WE have taken very good care of ALL our animals. I have been through 4 heats with her already and if I WAS going to breed her don't you think I WOULD have already? 
I don't believe in Abortions for any animal. That is my choice! 
People on here have given me good advice and I will be taking it to my vet when they open Monday morning.
There are pros and cons to each situation. I GET TO DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR MY FAMILY. 
Do I want another dog? Yes, I was about to get another 2 year old from someone but they decided to keep him. Then a friend was going to give us their 6 year old and we will take it if Hexe is not pg.
This wasn't planned. I doubt a 3 year old goes, oh I want puppies here Hexe go make some!
Thank you for the rest of the information, at least that was helpful.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People blame their husband and blame their kids and the result is spay neuter legislation for all of us. 

Why are you taking her to the vet on Monday morning? 

I want to warn you, if you ARE considering breeding your bitch in the future, and as she is not registered, I am guessing not, but the best thing for her reproductive health is to let her have the puppies. I would not give her a morning after pill several days later. In fact, I would do a lot of research on that before going ahead with it. 

Otherwise, there is no point going to the vet until the pups are old enough for an ultrasound. Unless you just want to discuss her condition, diet, and exercise in the event of pregnancy. There is no test they can do at this point. 

In fact, you may do much better to save the money for this vet visit and use it for a good book on breeding a litter. The book you can refer back to several times, throughout, and it will tell you what to look for in the event of complications. A decent book will discuss breeding, whelping, raising the litter, diet, exercise, possible complications, and finding homes for the pups. 

With a tie, the odds are that she is pregnant. There are several things to consider besides finding them homes. Where do you want to have the pups? How will you keep the other dogs away from her so that she is not stressed out by them? Home-made whelping box, plastic swimming pool, purchase a box? 

If you have never done this before, there is a lot more to learn about it than your vet can tell you in 5-6 minutes. Get a book. If you have a friend who breeds any type of dog, you might want to ask them to help you out. 

I hope that everything goes well. GSDs are long and rather narrow when born, their heads are not over-large. They tend to be good whelpers who need no or little help. You will probably be amazed at how much your bitch extinctively knows about taking care of her end. 

Start saving newspapers now, it's a messy business.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

one thing you will want to tell *every single person* who gets one of these puppies from you is that if, for any reason, they are not able to care for the dog, *throughout* *the dog's entire life*, that you will take the animal (whose life you are responsible for, accident or no accident) back, *no questions asked*. because now that the accident has happened, that is the only responsible thing you can do. 

and start saving money now too...not only is it messy, it's expensive.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I was going to the vet monday morning to look into the mismate shot as others suggested. My vet is closed weekends.
I will ask for the return of the dog should anything happen, IE they deploy, move, finances, ECT.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

KCandMace said:


> WE wanted her to be over 2 and fully mature. WE have taken very good care of ALL our animals. I have been through 4 heats with her already and if I WAS going to breed her don't you think I WOULD have already?


If she's gone through 2 heats she should be close enough to 2 yrs old and fully mature. I would have her spayed within the next 2 weeks. That way if she did catch then the eggs would just barely be fertilized.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And if she's that young, not great to have puppies, right? Again agreeing with Lauri here!

I have always thought in situations where it is too late to do the shot or spay, that the ooops people could raise the puppies with mom until 8 weeks, then turn them over to reputable rescue to place with the lifetime safety net. Especially puppies in the south, being given a chance at a home in the north. I think that would be a good idea and give the screening over to people who do it 12 months a year, do home checks, follow ups, etc.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I have always thought in situations where it is too late to do the shot or spay, that the ooops people could raise the puppies with mom until 8 weeks, then turn them over to reputable rescue to place with the lifetime safety net. Especially puppies in the south, being given a chance at a home in the north. I think that would be a good idea and give the screening over to people who do it 12 months a year, do home checks, follow ups, etc.


I think that would be nice but then it puts all the work on the rescue - most of which are already overworked.

If an oops litter is going to be raised then I would suggest a contract that was written by a lawyer, that states all the important stuff (spayed by 12 months of age, never re-homed, sent back to breeder if can no longer care for it, etc.) and have the contract signed IN THE PRESENCE of a lawyer. I would also suggest not only the basics - vet and personal references - but also do a personal home check, unannounced. Also talk with the neighbors - especially those that were NOT given as references.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Fosters can always make room for 8 week old puppies!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Fosters can always make room for 8 week old puppies!


You're right of course, we can. But it does take up room in foster homes that could be used for shelter dogs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think of it as prevention. I guess we are lucky here, there are homes that like to foster puppies moreso than adults and will take them gladly.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Hexe is 19 months, she is not THAT young, but still young.
Like was said before. It is my responsibility to find these possible puppies a home. I will seek the rescues help if I have any trouble. I have homes for 4 so far.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think of it as prevention. I guess we are lucky here, there are homes that like to foster puppies moreso than adults and will take them gladly.


I've continued to foster dogs before while allowing the rescue to handle the placement since they are the experts. So that is an option as well! That way you get the benefit of their experience, without taking away the space in foster homes. Its also great if you can afford to handle all of the veterinary costs of the animal for the rescue so the adoption fee can go to take care of ones already in their care.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Danielle could still work with a rescue for responsible placement but foster her own, vet her own, etc.

I just think the shot would be much better all the way around for this situation, if that is a possibility, I would not hesitate to do it, if I were in such a situation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My worry with the shot is that it is not happening right away. Is there any chance that some pups will survive, but be affected by it? Is their risk to the dam? 

If you believe they are puppies, what is the difference between the shot and a spay? If you are totally against abortion in all instances, the shot is as much an abortion as a spay would be at this point. If the op is open to the shot, but not a spay, than I do not understand the whole abortion argument in this case. 

Frankly waiting longer for her to be spayed doesn't make sense to me either. The bitch is most likely pregnant. If she whelps and raises the litter at this point, or gets spayed at this point, it is six and one half dozen which would be more likely to cause and change in how she matures. 

Personally, I feel that emotionally, the bitch is too young to be whelping and raising a litter. 19 months and on her fifth heat cycle -- they made it through four with no problems, I find this very strange, is she part rabbit? 

Puppy mills use bitches this young regularly. But those bitches are kenneled for life and bred each cycle. They are not expected to be emotionally sound. 

For the bitch, I think she should spay her. I would go ahead and do it quickly, without knowing for sure if she was pregnant.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

After reading up on the shot I do think it is to late for it. But I will still talk to my vet about everything.
I do have breeders nearby to consult with if needed and some very nice rescues also.
At least I am trying and not just dumping them at the pound or on the side of the road. It is still just a possibility. And you know as well as I do that not every tie ends in a pregnancy. 
I am still trying to find out what else can I do to help ensure her health through the pregnancy and those of the unborn pups. But I guess I can just go read a book instead of ask.

Hexe's first heat was a double heat. So I count 4 since she started.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I think that would be nice but then it puts all the work on the rescue - most of which are already overworked.
> 
> If an oops litter is going to be raised then I would suggest a contract that was written by a lawyer, that states all the important stuff (spayed by 12 months of age, never re-homed, sent back to breeder if can no longer care for it, etc.) and have the contract signed IN THE PRESENCE of a lawyer. I would also suggest not only the basics - vet and personal references - but also do a personal home check, unannounced. Also talk with the neighbors - especially those that were NOT given as references.


Are you saying an attorney visit and charge for each and every puppy? Does anyone do this?

I'm confused here, but it could really be me, I'm on pain meds AND mad at my husband.

Not a good combination.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No Betty, you are right, it is not right for us to expect someone with an accidental breeding to do more than any of us do. Who in the world could pay for a lawyer to be present every time someone MIGHT show up for a puppy???

I would have to charge people a non-refundable cover for coming and looking at the litter. 

I have been to a few homes of the people that have my pups, but certainly not all of them. No single breeder has the money to run all over the country checking references and talking to neighbors and looking at fences. 

A rescue generally deals with local people, if they can send a volunteer over to make sure the yayhoo has a fence and his landlord is ok with a shep, then well and good.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

Ummm what is a double heat? We used the shot before or vet did not really want to give her the shot because she was small but we insisted birth would have killed our lil chi. also makes them stay in heat longer and that's more time for the male to try.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

A double heat is when they have a heat back to back. It is normal.
Hexe went into heat and I counted out 4 weeks. 2 weeks after that she went through another heat.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Isn't that a split heat? Some bitches have a 4 month cycle. I would let the mom have the pups then spay if you never want another litter from her.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

so an accidental oops breeding, here is hoping all these unregistered pups go to homes where they spay before 2 so they don't all have oops litters, then those unregistered pups get spayed ..... Isn't this the fear we all have that lots of ooops litters from unregistered, unproven, untrialed dogs that flood the market with low cost pets that in the long run do more harm to the breed than good? Why didn't you spay her? And why are you looking to adopt more older dogs? Are you a hoarder? Looking to become a breeder? Are these dogs related? What are their pedigrees? So you brought them from Germany? This doesn't mean they are good dogs?? I can almost read the ads....Imported parents, trouble with papers but registered over there, charging a higher price and oh yeah, another oops down the road..

OK, I have had an oops but on registered, trialed CH Group wining bitch with my Ch..CDX dog, and she had been extensively tested and said to be infertile. All others I have managed to keep separate and confined. And so do most breeders. So Ok lets blame the kids, husband, neighbor, and who ever, well we all have them and manage!!!

Maybe I am too harsh but you let it happen and you knew it was going to happen so step off the poor me train and do something about it. So you don't kill live things, well you may as well cause with this happening you are killing as many shelter pups as you are producing. PETS are a dime a dozen.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Don't let em get you down. Yes, you prob. should have had at least one of them fixed if they arent titled and papered, Yes you should take responsibility...
but ask all of those people who came from an " oops" breeding of their own, or how many THEY have... because my human son was NOT a planned baby... does that make him.. not as good as the planned baby of a doctor couple?

Seriously, I commend you for at least ASKING, and then doing what you felt responsible and going to the vet about the " mis mate" shot... you are trying and that is what counts. The fact that you love and care for your animals is what's most important to me.... just make sure ALL the puppies are fixed ( well, or contract to fix). Rescues are very judgemental, yet don't follow up... I had rescues in the past, who scoped out my house and yard, talked to neighbors and landlords, and made me sign papers... but never came back to ask what kind of food they were on, how they were treated, make sure they got altered... seriously? My family used to breed dogs, and they had contracts allowing home visits within certain time periods where they would check the temperment of the dog, look for fear that seemed like it came from abuse, watched family interaction, and checked up on vet/alter/food/health...


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Here we go again thinking that a regular person can't handle a litter of pups and it should be left up to the "breeders".I know of 1 breeder that is on here that had an oops litter with an under 2 bitch and another one that I THINK had an on purpose litter with a little under 2 bitch.Why is it that those people weren't given the abortion chat????
For every opps litter that gets successfully placed it means one less puppy for the breeders to sell..

Ok back to the regularly scheduled discussion.I have no advice on the litter and Mom.I think your on the right track health wise with Mom.I agree with whoever it was saying your questions were giving the answers you want.I would just ask them as what will you feed and who will be vetting the pup and ask for references like the breeders occasionally do.
I will be thinking of you and hoping for a happy healthy litter in a couple of months.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Thank you.
The vet says no shot. To late for it. So I move on to waiting a month. 
I will give her extra support just in case. Just like humans a little extra during pg is good. And if she isn't then she will just have loved all this extra attention!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Good Luck and keep us updated.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Selzer...Rescues generally cover an entire state...if not a few states...or have a unlimited adoption area or are nationwide. If they don't have a volunteer in the area to do the homevisit (which is for more than making sure someone has a fence) they network with other rescues to find someone that can do it. I myself have done hv's for rescues in NY and OH. Just wanted to clear up that misconception 

VABeachfamily...

" Rescues are very judgemental, yet don't follow up"

Now that is a very blanket statement which is not true. Of course that are always going to be bad rescues...just as there are bad breeders. But a reputable rescue is going to only adopt out spay/neutered animals, screen thoroughly, follow up and be there for the life of the dog.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

VaBeachFamily said:


> Rescues are very judgemental, yet don't follow up... I had rescues in the past, who scoped out my house and yard, talked to neighbors and landlords, and made me sign papers... but never came back to ask what kind of food they were on, how they were treated, make sure they got altered... seriously? My family used to breed dogs, and they had contracts allowing home visits within certain time periods where they would check the temperment of the dog, look for fear that seemed like it came from abuse, watched family interaction, and checked up on vet/alter/food/health...


 
So speaking of judgemental and rude comments..........maybe practice what you preach instead of giving the OP untrue ideas? Reputable rescues are everything a good breeder is and often times more.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Please people. The subject is not about good breeders vs good rescues. You want to talk about that then please take it to a separate thread.
I would like help with the possibility of a pregnant gsd.
As I originally said in my first post. Keep your lecturing to yourself! Which you people seem to mean doesn't apply to you as you are somehow godly and know what is best for everyone.
I thank those who are actually trying to help me with information and keep the personnel opinions to themselves. That is all I asked for and all that I need.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

something else to consider doing, I would ask for say, a 100$ spay/neuter deposit. Unless your willing to spay the puppies prior to homing them? When the dog is spay/neutered return their 100$.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, the rescue comment from ME was another *nudge nudge* in the direction of you "fostering" the puppies and letting a good, reputable rescue do your screening.

Diane--good point about the spay/neuter contract. I know this will get Selzer going (angel face , but in NY we are required by law to get a $50 spay/neuter deposit if we adopt out a puppy less than 6 months and it can get returned to the adopters after they send us the documentation.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I like that idea. Thanks. 
I think a s/n at under 8 weeks is way to young. So the deposit is a great.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

With my aussie rescue, they did the same thing, I opted to donate that deposit back into rescue (even tho I paid rescue for him initially) but I think it's a good incentive to get that dog s/n 'd.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Where are you located?If in Cali you can bring the puppies to the SPCALA Shelter, where the puppies will be checked by a vet, receive medical care, and will be spayed/neutered when the come of age.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Well, the rescue comment from ME was another *nudge nudge* in the direction of you "fostering" the puppies and letting a good, reputable rescue do your screening.
> 
> Diane--good point about the spay/neuter contract. I know this will get Selzer going (angel face , but in NY we are required by law to get a $50 spay/neuter deposit if we adopt out a puppy less than 6 months and it can get returned to the adopters after they send us the documentation.


And, with a spay/neuter contract, you can sue the adopters if they do not provide proof of spay/neuter. 

I would look at the rescue contracts...many are online and available for download. Please do a HV and check references...especially vet references. As far as I'm concerned, having a personal reference just means you have someone that would lie for you. It's the vet and home visit that really count. If you need a guide line of what to ask and how I do have a 'cheat sheet' from doing checks for a rescue.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Oops litters happen, I won't rag on you for that. If this happened to me, I would be in a position where I'd have to make some compromises. For example, I don't like speutering dogs really young. However I'd be totally against sending puppies away from an ungregistered, untitled, unplanned litter intact, so I'd probably make it my responsibility to hold onto them until they were spayed and neutered, then give them away to great pet homes and be totally honest with potential adopters. I've heard of a good breeders that had an oops litter with different breeds (like GSD x Mali, or two types of spaniel) and the homes the pups went to could have cared less, but these dogs were speutered.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Raising 8+ possible puppies until the age of 6+ months just isn't feasible. 
Also from some of the people who are interested in the pups and what they would like to do with them they need to start their training prior to 6 months of age.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I think she was referring to speutering as young as 8 weeks old. Though not ideal, its a better option than exponential litters down the line.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not crazy about early speutering either, and I wouldn't be crazy about keeping 8 puppies (as OP stated) until they were 6 months old either..

I think if you do your homework, and as Jax suggested, get a solid vet reference and do a home check yourself, you can get a good feel about people.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lin said:


> I think she was referring to speutering as young as 8 weeks old. Though not ideal, its a better option than exponential litters down the line.


8 weeks old would be a bit early for me, maybe like 12. With my dogs, I wait until maturity (or not at all), but like I said, in this case I would feel it's my responsibility to absolutely prevent the same thing from happening again. Shelters speuter dogs at 8 weeks every day and the dogs are just fine. Not ideal, but neither is an oops litter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Did you get a book yet? 

There is a whole lot going on before you have to consider getting them in good homes. For one thing, you do not want to stress your bitch during this time. In the first three weeks after mating, the bitch can abort if overly stressed. Usually, this is not a huge problem (if you did not want the litter anyway) because she will resorb them. It is natural and nothing to worry about. But just something to think about, at this point the little fertalized eggs are not yet attached to the uterine horns and can easily be aborted, so remove any unnecessary stress. 

Secondly, you need to find a place for her to have the puppies. If you have a variety of dogs and all are inside, than having the puppies in your kitchen with other dogs going back and forth can be extremely stressful.

Did I mention keeping stress to a minimum? 

Your pregnant bitch CAN become VERY protective and attack your other dogs and cats if she feels they are a threat. A dog that lets the cat rub all over them normally, can become a cat killer. Just saying. You need to set up an area for your bitch that is warm, well ventilated, and secure for her to have her puppies in. An area where she has easy access to the outside to potty would be good, but not an area where the other dogs need to go past her to potty. 

If you had a sun porch on the front of your house, that would be good if the other dogs go out back. I have a doggy door into a kennel, but that is probably not a possibility and even if it was, probably not even a good idea. You generally will have to take her out on a lead to get her to leave the puppies to potty. And you really do not want her to go out in the middle of a rainstorm, taking a puppy with her (some do). Also, thinking about the massive amount of fluids involved in this, you really do not want to have to take her down a carpeted hallway and over the living room rug to get to the door if at all avoidable. Bitches can spew forth foul gunk for up to six weeks after having a litter, and you cannot use doggy diapers for a lactating bitch. So choose carefully where you want to put her box. 

About the box. some people use a child's swimming pool. I prefer a box with a pig rail because large dogs can lay on a pup, or the pup can get cought behind her and suffacate. I suppose you can wait until you do an ultrasound...

You will not make any money on this, and I do not know how you are set for money, but an ultrasound sounds like an expensive avenue to go down. X-rays are less expensive, but you really have to wait until they are nearly due -- I wait until day 56, but you may be able to do them a little earlier. I had only one ultrasound done, years ago, and I believe it cost me $700. 

I actually like the idea of a deposit for spay/neuter. I do not go for sueing people who do not have it done. That can be costly, so I would not go into thinking about sueing if they do not comply. $100 deposit for spay/neuter sounds ok. 

You just have to be careful. If you put too many restrictions on potential buyers, you may have these puppies for six months or more until you find people that meet all your criteria. And the older they are, the more difficult it gets in a number of ways. 

I find that added stress leads to more bleeding -- post whelping. So the stress has to be kept to a minimum for at least three weeks. And then you want to limit unnecessary stress because the puppies are being imprinted by their dam. If she is stressed and nervous, they will be too. 

You need to think about when you will allow people to come in to see the litter. Thinking about stress here, you may want to wait until they have their first shots and the dam has pretty much weaned them. Prior to this, you can have family members and friends come within reason for socialization, but they should be people your bitch knows and trusts, and it is pointless until after the pups are three weeks old.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> I had only one ultrasound done, years ago, and I believe it cost me $700.


Oh my! What kind of ultrasound was that?? I took my bitch for a puppy check ultrasound and it was $50.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I bought a book that covered prenatal care. So many books skipped from the tie to the whelping!
Rex had his hips xrayed today and they are being sent to OFA. The vet said they look great and we have no worries. 
I asked the vet about ultrasounds. They are waiting on a machine. Then they will be the only vet within 2 hours that has one! But they didn't say when they are expecting it.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Selzer, great helpful tips. Do you really need an xray, can you skip it?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> You just have to be careful. If you put too many restrictions on potential buyers, you may have these puppies for six months or more until you find people that meet all your criteria. And the older they are, the more difficult it gets in a number of ways.


You know, that is a very true statement for the average person selling a litter of puppies. Unless the parent dogs in question are so unbelievably well known and successful that potential buyers are willing to jump through any hoop to get a pup, most people will just take their $300 down the road to the next litter available and buy from someone who doesn't give a good whoopty-do about where the puppy goes. 

This is where working with a good rescue would come in so handy. Someone adopting through a rescue would expect to fill out an application and have a home visit done. In fact, a good rescue would have a list of pre-approved homes waiting for purebred puppies.

Assuming that nobody wants to make a few bucks from selling the puppies, an established rescue would be the way to go in making sure pups get placed in the best homes possible when situations like this come up. I am speaking in a generic sense with that statement, since the OP in this case could still decide to use a rescue to place the puppies from this particular "Oops" litter.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can skip the x-ray. X-rays are not perfect anyway, in that they may tell you 8 or 9, and she can have 12 or 14. (They actually did tell me 8-10 on Arwen's second litter and she had 13 full sized pups in her and a 1/2 size pup. This last time, we counted eight and there were eight (one did not make it). Arwen's first they said seven, there were ten. Babsy they said six there were eight, and Jenna's first litter they said a whole lot, and there were ten.

So you really do not what to put your entire trust in the count. But, I still do it. I mean, if you _know_ there are eight pups in there and she stops after four, you KNOW there is a problem and can get her help right away. 

Also, Arwen's third litter turned out to be a singleton that I lost. That was the litter with the ultrasound. At under three weeks along, I had taken Arwen to the vet, he palpated her and felt that the spleen was enlarged. I told him she was pregnant, but he starte talking hemangiosarcoma. I let them x-ray. 

They were talking surgery, and finally said we should do an x-ray. I took her to a hospital about two hours away to the specialist who agreed that it looked like hemangiosarcoma and that an ultrasound was in order. He came out of there and, I am not sure 5-7 hundred dollars later, he told me that she was pregnant, but could not give a count, more than one heart beat. No hemangiosarcoma -- then.

Anyhow, she did not gain weight the way she did in her previous pregnancies. I finally took her in at the very end, and got her x-rayed, one pup and very large, she would need a c-section. 

I foolishly allowed a spay during the c-section. I ended up losing the puppy. It was a very expensive litter, hard on my girl, an no pup to show for it. 

The first three weeks, the little puppies are swimming around in there, unattached to the uterine-horn walls. This is when spontaneous abortion is most likely. The bitch will generally resorb these puppies. x-rays at this point are very risky. 

They attach and that is often when bitches will lose their appetites. 

In the last three weeks is when the little buggers are growing like weeds. I usually wait until day 56 and x-ray. At this point the x-rays are at very low levels and if they do not stress out the bitch it is supposed to be very safe.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Well it was another morning of Hexe not wanting to eat breakfast. I just put it up till lunch and she eats it then. 
So yep, 2 more weeks.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

The schnauzer breeder is going to help me when the time comes. She is a great lady. She was holding two adorable pups when I stopped by. She used to breed shepherds many years ago.
Hexe is starting to get a little belly pooch. So I am really leaning towards her having pups next month.
Still no ultrasound machine at the vet.  Now would be perfect timing!


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

Good luck toyou Danielle. dont fall in love with any of the puppies
Im sure you will work things out.....mistakes happen. 
I hope everything goes well for the Mom and you find wonderful homes.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Thanks. 
Was going over Hexe some more today. Her teets are bigger now than before. She had large ones before and now they are super big. Talking with my neighbors and she doesn't look at tight in the abs as she did before.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Hexe is definitely swelling now. So yep, she is pg.
Now for the paranoia to set in! :crazy:
I'll get a good picture of her later.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Watch out for buyers whose first name is "uh." As in, "Hi, my name is (Hunther's Dad). And your name is?"

"Uh...Donald." 

I ran "Uh...Donald's" phone number through an Internet site called Intelius -dot- com. "Uh...Donald's" phone number came back to "Mike," no last name, with four of the worst addresses in the United States associated with that phone.


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## chevysmom (Feb 15, 2008)

Danielle, good luck to you and to Hexe


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

LOL Yes, No "Um-oh" people will get a pup.

Rex's OFA's came back today! They are Good! I am so thrilled to get them back. I didn't expect them this quickly.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

I don't know if this will make you feel better but Isa's litter was an oops. The breeder had one of her females stay at a friend's house, not sure why but the guy watching her accidenatlly didn't close the latch to her kennel good enough and his male was outside. Well you can guess what happened. And Isa has grown up normal. 

I can't wait to see the babies.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

My girls a ooops too her parents tied during a move. She seems healthy a little shy but could not be happier. Nothing wrong with. A oops acedents happen take my oldest sister for example LOL and we still love her too.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Ursa is also from an oops breeding. Her dam had been bred before but was retired after a couple litters. Her sire was not yet old enough to ofa certify, but he was going to be the new stud dog. They were being watched by someone who let them out together at just the wrong time and there you go. Her sire has now been ofa certified and he came back "good". Her dam already is ofa "good". 

I bought Ursa for $750 from an ad on the pedigree database classifieds. Normally he sells pups $1000+ and with guarantees. I got her for less and with no guarantee for the reduced price since it was unplanned. Not a bad match between dogs though and she did come with AKC full registration with no stipulations.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm glad you are going to find homes for them as puppies Think that is an important time for them to be in their new homes. Sometimes I think that you just have to trust that people will do the right thing


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

In my years of involvement with dogs, I had one accidental breeding and one possible accidental breeding. The possible accident was between two half sibling GSDs, one of which seizured. I actually doubt that a breeding happened but there was a possobility of it so I had my girl spayed as soon as she came out of heat. 

The accidental breeding I did have was years later with two of my Belgians. It was without a doubt an accident - I didn't even know she was pregnant until it became physically obvious. Since I wanted to breed her, spaying was out of the question and I wouldn't have done it that late. I had the male's hips done right after the puppies were born and her's done after they were weaned. Both already had been CERF'd. Both had performance titles, CH points and nice pedigrees. 

Friends of mine just had an accidental litter of 11 which had complications - their bitch had to have a c-section/spay and they have been handraising all the puppies because she won't accept them. You have to be ready for anything when you are having puppies, planned or otherwise. 

Accidental breedings do happen for sure. I personally would not early alter them because IMO, there are just too many health issues associated with it. I would screen really, really well though - ask lots of questions, ask for references, have a good contract. 

Some links which might be helpful:

General
Breeding, Whelping, and Rearing Puppies

Care of Newborn Puppies
Newborn Puppies....Care of the Newborn puppy

Screening
Screening Puppy Buyers

Powered by Google Docs

Early Socialization/Training/Early Neurological Stimulation - You can't make your litter ideal or make this breeding more desirable compared to well thought out litters from titled parents. However, you CAN do lots of extra work with socialization and training to make sure the puppies are the best they can be. And if you do, it may make people wanting a pet or performance potential puppy more willing to take a chance on your litter. 

Early Neurological Stimulation for Newborn Puppies - Chinaroad Lowchens of Australia -

Early Learning Focus

Raising a Clicker Puppy

Raising Orphaned Puppies
Leerburg | Bottle Feeding Puppies

Puppy Packs
Bullmastiff.com - The Most Informative Bullmastiff Web Site

Contracts
Legalities Of Contracts

Blackwater Companion Contract

Gaylan's Golden Retrievers Contracts and Warranties


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Thanks Agile. Those links are a lot of help.


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