# Personal trainer correction methods



## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

So today I had my first appointment with a personal trainer. She came by my home and stayed for 2.5 hours. We talked a lot and she showed me afterwards how to walk my dog (9 months) correctly (with a gentle leader). 
All well and good (at least much better than I was doing). But much of her teachings depend on corrections. 
She uses two of them. One is the grabbing of the skin beneath the neck, the other one is grabbing the muzzle from above and holding it tight for a few seconds (not holding his mouth closed). She explained to me that if he bites me/someone, jumps, I have to correct holding his muzzle. The intensity depends on what he did, how often. In her opinion some behaviors are simply unacceptable and need to be corrected immediately. He needs to know his position.

She says she's all about positive (clicker) training, explained to me the importance of intelligence games and how I needed to exercise my dog much more (although I should not play tug, because that shows the dog his strength and I'm not a skilled dog trainer to know how to react if he does something wrong). 

I'm pretty happy with how everything went today, but I'm not sure about the corrections. He has however not jumped/bitten me anymore after I corrected him a few times this morning. 

What do you guys think?


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I personally am all about it is your dog. You know your dog better than anybody, you know what behaviors you are willing to tolerate and which behaviors you simply cannot. So therefore, train how you are able to get the reaction you want from your dog using training methods you are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable with the corrections, get a different trainer. It may take time, but eventually you'll find somebody who is willing to get the response you want with a training method you like.

But if it really bothers you, first and foremost, tell her. Tell your trainer "I don't like this method of training" if she is a good trainer I bet she'll have other methods she can use to get a response, they just may take more time/dedication. We used a water bottle with water and a little bit of lemon juice. Every time Bruce would bite us, we'd spray his tongue, he hates the taste of lemon, so he stopped. Then just water on his butt would make him stop jumping, those worked for us and we were comfortable doing them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree that your dog needs a correction. I think many of us have said that repeatedly. We've all described how repeatedly. I wouldn't do any of what you described with your dog. But to each their own.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@Wags
That's the difficult part for me, the confrontation. I prefer to just not book her again and search for another trainer where I explain my "desires" better through the telephone. But on the other hand, it's a good learning moment for me to confront somebody. So I might just do that.

Thanks for the ideas, very good ones! 

@Jax08
I know, you've all said much more than I can learn in the next few years, probably. Much knowledge that requires better understanding from my part. I understand many of my questions here are slightly annoying, but like I said, I just have nobody to exchange ideas with around here. 
I wasn't asking for methods to correct my dog, I can open many threads of mine and find dozens of them, but I just want to know what people think about this trainer's method. 

Anyway, thanks!


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## randyhernz (Aug 17, 2016)

Like others have said, at the end of the day it is your dog and you must the decide on which training approach you'd like to use. I am a balanced trainer so I use corrections but only when the dog KNOWS 100% what it is supposed to do and what I am asking of it. I would never "correct" a dog the way your trainer does, but to each their own. Training is all about finding your dogs motivation. "how do i get you to do this, and how do i get you to not do that". Its very simple.

The only time I correct a dog before I teach it what to do, is with dangerous and potentially fatal behaviors. I rather correct a dog so they stop that unwanted behavior before nature corrects it, because nature is always going to correct harder than we ever will.

Your training goals, how obedience you want your dog, and a timeframe will determine which training method/trainer you should go with. Dog training is very vague and there are many different types of trainers out there that specialize in different areas of dog training. There are trick trainers, basic obedience training, behavior modification/rehabilitation, sport training, personal protection training, etc etc.

Personally I specialize in real word obedience and behavior modification/rehab... if a client came to me and wanted trick training or bite work, I would turn them away because I simply do not have the knowledge in those areas. Make sure the trainer you choose specializes in what you want to achieve with your dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Do what you think is best and works for you.Personally,I don't care for your trainer's corrections.The reason is if you give corrections with your hands the dog is very likely to think hands coming toward him = punishment.I want my dogs to expect only good things happen when I reach towards them.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Henricus, my relatives are using a trainer for their vizsla that implemented almost exactly the same methods you described. Honestly the first time I saw them do the muzzle grab-and-holds and some other things, I (silently) wondered what was going on, but I kept my opinions to myself.

Their dog is good natured and pretty well behaved now, but she knows darn well when she's out of arm's reach. She plays keep-away and dodges back and forth when she's naughty, especially if you reach your hand toward her. The dog no longer jumps on people (ever), the method worked well for removing that behavior. But if the dog is off-leash and out of arm's length? Good luck, all bets are off. When I take care of their dog the keep-away games drive me nuts. None of my personal dogs avoid my hands, they see hands as the source of good (food - pets - toys).

This dog also uses a special name-brand walking device. Which is fine for some people. But I find it annoying, if you attempt to walk this dog with any other collar or device, you're likely to dislocate your shoulder. Not for me, no thanks. 

If you are getting the results you want with this trainer, great. If you're not achieving your goals, choose a different path.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I triple the hands advice.

If a dog can't trust your hands, the relationship becomes very limited imho.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you are going to correct with your hands it is fine as long as you use a consistent correction markr first so that the dog knows when your hands are there to correct vs when your hands are not there to correct. As long as you do that you can correct with hands without that worry.

I like to use tools as much as the next guy but I like it for my dogs to know I have the ability to correct them without the tools.

As for dogs playing keep away, any trainer worth a crap knows how to stop that or prevent the dog from learning it in the first place.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@randyhernz
I agree 100% with how you describe your training method. That seems, to my inexperienced brain, the best way to do it for what I want to accomplish, which essentially is a well balanced family dog. 

I've heard that line a few times here "Make sure the trainer you choose specializes in what you want to achieve with your dog.", but that's not easy at all. Because what I want to achieve is what most dog owners want to achieve and all the trainers I've found advertise this exact thing. I only found two trainers that seemed different. One is the author of a bestseller and is easily twice as expensive as all the others. He seems to be very good, but unfortunately he stopped doing home visits and only trains where he currently lives, which is too far away. The other one is a woman that tackles the cause rather than the behavior, she (and all the reviews) claim she doesn't use corrections or threats. I've been waiting for her to answer me for more than 2 months, but she is gone for a while due to personal problems. There is literally no one else. Which is the problem of living "far" from metropolitan areas and not owning a car. 
@dogma13
Thank you for reminding me that. I had heard that before but didn't think of it. I will include this in my email to the trainer. 
@WIBackpacker
I am a bit softhearted, when she corrected my dog like that yesterday after he jumped on her my heart went full throttle. I froze. It's not I have never corrected my dog harshly, certainly worse than what she did, but it's my dog and seeing someone else correct him like that felt extremely wrong. But that's beside the point. I understand what you say.
My dog, if he is trying to grab something that I don't want him to grab, already turns away quickly when I reach out to him with my hand. 

He unfortunately, due to some mistakes I made when he was small, has learned that running away from me with a toy is fun. So that certainly is already an issue. 

I imagine I can achieve the results that I want with her teachings, I'm just not that comfortable with having to deliver such harsh corrections for what seems as almost trivial problems. 

(she also doesn't think dogs need to be in crates during daytime, unless there is no other way; does not want me to play tug with him, certainly not with a dog as strong as a gsd and an owner as inexperienced as me). 
@Heartandsoul
Thanks
@Baillif
I think I have been doing that without knowing it was right. When I correct I always use a "eh" sound. The trainer however told me to not say anything.. I was not supposed to use my voice when doing physical corrections.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

The other thing I was thinking about is that I've been spoiled throughout these last months with excellent help and thoroughly written advice from all of you guys. I had super high expectations and waited quite long to get a behavioral specialist to help me train my dog (and in a way incorporate things I have been thought here, not counter it completely).

Anyway, I'm going to write her an email. Thanks a bunch!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Henricus said:


> So today I had my first appointment with a personal trainer. She came by my home and stayed for 2.5 hours. We talked a lot and she showed me afterwards how to walk my dog (9 months) correctly (with a gentle leader).
> All well and good (at least much better than I was doing). But much of her teachings depend on corrections.
> She uses two of them. One is the grabbing of the skin beneath the neck, the other one is grabbing the muzzle from above and holding it tight for a few seconds (not holding his mouth closed). She explained to me that if he bites me/someone, jumps, I have to correct holding his muzzle. The intensity depends on what he did, how often. In her opinion some behaviors are simply unacceptable and need to be corrected immediately. He needs to know his position.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I would run and find some one else. Telling you to grab the dog's muzzle if it bites or jumps is really not the best way to handle things, IMHO. Just a poor technique and can get you or someone else bit.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Henricus said:


> [
> .... she also doesn't think dogs need to be in crates during daytime, unless there is no other way; does not want me to play tug with him.....
> 
> The trainer however told me to not say anything.. I was not supposed to use my voice when doing physical corrections.


I would have a heck of a time raising a German Shepherd with the constraints above. I'm sure it could be done, but this takes a lot of tools out of the toolbox, to so speak.

I want my dogs very, very in tune with my voice. When your arm can't reach the dog, your voice sure can.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am not a fan of the gentle leader. I agree with Slamdunc on finding another trainer. Does this trainer have experience with the breed?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree with WI. I want my dogs to respond to my voice, without any tools. Because my voice is often the first thing and easiest thing I'll use when I need the dog to do something, especially in an emergency type situation.

I limit the use of my voice, to some extent. That means I don't chat up my dogs constantly when we are out training. I want everything I say to have meaning, at least in a training or working scenario. 

And the dogs also read body language, as I read their body language. But it really comes down to clarity of communication. We are verbal creatures and dogs certainly can learn to cue into our words. 

Not using words is appropriate in certain scenarios- as another trainer mentioned- but for what the OP is describing, I would try to establish a communication system for training, first. And words are part of that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

does the gentle leader not put a circle of pressure on the dog's muzzle ?
and then your "trainer" encircles the dog's muzzle with her hands as a correction?

where is there a difference?

a correction is not punitive -- 

you said you corrected your dog a few times today . Was that correction for the same action ? If so the dog isn't learning what it is that you do want from him.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@Slamdunc
I also agree, but I say that on how I feel about it. 
I'm almost certain that I will contact another trainer. The positive thing about this slightly negative experience is that I can talk about it before booking another one. 
@WIBackpacker
Exactly, very logical. I sometimes see people yelling their dogs name without it even reacting a little bit to it. I don't want to condition my dog with that. 
@onyx'girl
Well.. She has Australian cattle dogs and horses. But I have not asked specifically about German Shepherds, which I obviously should have done.
@Muskeg
Thanks, that's a good explanation. Very clear. 
@carmspack 
The difference in fact is that the head halter has a loose fit and only tightens when the dog pulls. Her method grabbing the muzzle is completely different, because it requires me to pinch it with enough force for him to yelp. When she explained it to my sister and she tried it the trainer corrected her for not pinching hard enough, she said that the dog must yelp and show discomfort for it to learn. 

It was for fairly the same action, but not directed at the same thing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

copy "@carmspack 
The difference in fact is that the head halter has a loose fit and only tightens when the dog pulls. Her method grabbing the muzzle is completely different, because it requires me to pinch it with enough force for him to yelp. When she explained it to my sister and she tried it the trainer corrected her for not pinching hard enough, she said that the dog must yelp and show discomfort for it to learn. "

to learn what ? 
the dog will get smart and avoid your hand , become head shy , maybe even be a risk for biting to avoid the hands near head , maybe make all physical manipulation such as checking teeth, giving meds , cleaning ears , grooming , associated with your muzzle squeezing corrections.

how exact and timely will you be in making this "correction" in order for the dog to connect the wrong with the correction. I can just see the smart dog weaving and dodging as you try to get the muzzle . He is no fool. 


nothing like a zip lightning fast leash correction with a well fitted pinch or sprenger link collar.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@carmspack
The idea is that I have to grab/pinch his muzzle at the moment he jumps towards me. But you're absolutely right, he jumped at my sister today but turning his head away making a run for it when she raised her hand. 

I have today, out of fear that he fears my hand, just grabbed his muzzle very lightly after I asked him to sit. He luckily didn't react to it, at all.

Pinch/prong collars are more controversial here than religious and racial debates. My trainer is firmly against them, she claims it is well established they don't work..
I have tried them at obedience, but it didn't seem something for me. The other one is different, I had considered buying one of those some time ago.
Thanks!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is so much well-meant nonsense out there for training.

politically correct --- yet it creates prolonged psychological distress whereas a swift , well timed , correction whether pinch, slip or e-collar will have a millisecond of physical discomfort - and then it is over without your trust or relationship being harmed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

does your breeder not have some skills ?

they must have to get the requisite IPO 1 for ankorung .

I think it is important for breeders to see what they have produced and be involved in that dogs success , if that means recommending a trainer, inviting the person to the club and encouraging them to participate , or just getting feedback.

If dogs are difficult to train , or have character flaws , or fail to mature and are silly , or shy , or aggressive , or not thrifty , they should know.

ask your breeder for help


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hi, you may know your dog better than anyone else, but that doesn't mean you know DOGs or even training well enough to be better resource for your dog than the trainer. Unless, a trainer advocates abuse, then probably at this stage their direction is probably better than your questioning. 
I'm not trying to be negative, but imprinting/training young dog requires consistency of approach and patience. But it also requires firmness, I don't know how many people pay me good money to fix things that they created because they didn't want/like to do what was needed to put foundation in dog that will last lifetime. Not saying your trainer is right or wrong, but I think your choices are follow her direction or seek different trainer and follow what they say. I really doubt you have knowledge at this point to second guess the trainer....Good Luck and enjoy your dog!


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@carmspack
I called the breeder today. He does have a lot of experience, I think around 25 years of breeding and I know my boy's mother has IPO II, so again, incredibly stupid of me to not have thought of that option. But I guess that mainly because we hardly have any contact. He said he does not like the way she corrects, but isn't opposed to it. He wouldn't do it himself. He likes to ignore bad behavior (like jumping), and then rewarding the submissive behavior afterwards. He also said that he lifts up his knee if he spots the jumping on time (all things that have been repeated a gazillion times on this forum). 

He is against the use of head halter (and things alike), because it takes the possibility to correct the dog away. He always uses a simply (slim) slip chain. If the problem is too big, or if he's on a tight time schedule in preparation, then he switches over to a prong. The use of a prong will be prohibited by law from 01-01-2017 here in the Netherlands. 

But I had a good conversation with him. Gave me some excellent tips. 
@cliffson1
That's for certain, I know probably more about black holes than about dog training. I understand where you're coming from and, in a way, I agree with it. But I don't think it's as simple as following someone's advice simply because that person is a professional. I think it's difficult to find someone who "has it all figured out", it's good to stay a bit critical and skeptical without being a cynic. We are bound to make mistakes and learn along the way. But I'm obviously in no position to be arrogant about dog training, which is not my intention. I'm not going to discuss dog training with her, because I can't. I have two other trainers I can contact that live in the neighborhood. So if things don't work out with the current one, I'll switch. 

Thanks for your well thought message!


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Update

I contacted my trainer at obedience after the summer stop to say I wouldn't return for the remaining two classes. I told her about the behavior specialist that came here, and she, having a Dutch Shepherd IPO club, didn't agree with what I was taught. She gave me the telephone number of a trainer she works with that does home visits. It's a women that breeds Tervuren (Belgian Shepherds) working line dogs and trains KNPV (police training) and IPO with them. 
I called her and was very happy with our short conversation. She did not condone anything the other trainer did (something the other trainer did about my previous instructors) and also could not specify what she would do, because she would have to observe me and my dog before knowing that. She will also help to guide me into, if possible, into more work related training. 

Without looking for it, I found what you guys adviced me all along, a trainer that specializes in Shepherds and has tremendous experience in advanced training with them.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's really good news!Looking forward to updates on your progress.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Sounds really promising. I hope this is the beginning of something great and useful.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Thanks! I'll make sure to keep you guys posted on the progress. I'm excited!

Btw, I made a big mistake in my last post. I wrote "condone", but I wanted to say "disapprove". 
The new trainer did not disapprove anything that the other trainer did, because she can't before seeing me and my dog. Something the other trainer did immediately.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Henricus said:


> Thanks! *I'll make sure to keep you guys posted on the progress. I'm excited*!
> 
> Btw, I made a big mistake in my last post. I wrote "condone", but I wanted to say "disapprove".
> The new trainer did not disapprove anything that the other trainer did, because she can't before seeing me and my dog. Something the other trainer did immediately.


Please do!

For my own understanding/learning, I try to take short video clips of our one-on-one work with a trainer once a month or so. It helps me see specific progress over the long term and not lose track of the big goals when there's an "off" week or small setbacks along the way. Jotting down some notes, or even keeping a training progress thread, could do the same thing, if your brain works like mine. Best wishes for you guys.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I met the man who confirmed the existence of black holes - Cygnus X-1 , as he is part of my astronomer sister's inner circle . He knows more about black holes than you , lol, but you know infinitely more about training dogs ! 
Give yourself some credit , lol.
Sounds like you are finally in good hands . Sheesh -- finally .
That other trainer sounded kooky .


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I don't know, we did the muzzle hold and it did actually help us with puppy nips. (The "force free" methods did not help at all.) If she escalated, we escalated to calmly pulling her to the ground until she "apologized" (relaxed). We didn't really use this one but another we were taught was to hold on to the sides of her face and give the verbal correction. Any physical correction was accompanied by a verbal, "NO BITE."

It hasn't hurt our relationship with her and she doesn't fear hands. She also doesn't bite. She picked up from some physical corrections paired with the verbal that the behavior wasn't acceptable, and now we only need the verbal reminder to put the teeth away if she's smiling and runs into us (honestly a pretty wimpy reminder but that's all she needs at this point). That skull and those teeth are HARD. Somehow her nose is even hard.

As an aside, it's possible that she doesn't fear hands or a human coming toward her collar in part because we were teaching her other things that meant hands were positive. We'd do short sessions of two sets of 10 reps on reaching for the collar while offering her a treat, or of working on "touch!" (closed fist, dog nudges or licks fist, open hand and get a treat) and making it a game by moving the hand around. BTW, the "touch" command has been handy for me in getting her to focus for off leash heeling. I just hold my hand such that if she is bumping it with her nose, it puts her right into heel position.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I don't know, we did the muzzle hold and it did actually help us with puppy nips"

that's a puppy nip -- not a 80 pound dog lunging and jumping on you --


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

carmspack said:


> "I don't know, we did the muzzle hold and it did actually help us with puppy nips"
> 
> that's a puppy nip -- not a 80 pound dog lunging and jumping on you --


That'll teach me to read and post before coffee. Missed that, thanks!

Yeah, uh...not so much on the muzzle hold with an 80 lb dog.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@WIBackpacker
Thanks for the tips. I'm definitely thinking about filming some of our sessions, at least part of it. It's a good way for me to keep reminding me of how I have to train him. But also to see progression. 
I'll see if any of this is worth posting in a thread, but that's also a good idea. 

@carmspack
Haha, I laughed out loud when I read your message. That sure sounds like one of the most interesting inner circles to join one evening and just listen (cannot open my mouth, best way to not sound stupid, just nod and laugh when the others laugh). 
Yeah, finally haha. I needed something like this to feel more motivated to better myself in relation to my dog. 
I agree about the other trainer, but she certainly did one thing; make me more serious about training. I have made some progress since she came here. I'm far more engaged, more conscious about my posture and more certain about what I expect from my dog, which in turn makes things more clearly for him. 

@WateryTart
I wasn't sure how to answer your post, haha. But then I continued reading the other post. 
Thanks anyway!


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