# Interested in Breeding, What does a good breeder need to know?



## Myobu (Oct 29, 2016)

Alright, before anyone says "Leave breeding to the professionals," breeding is simply an interest of mine at the moment, and I know there are enough people out there breeding German Shepherds without someone like me potentially contributing to the overpopulation/bad breeder problem.

Now, a year and a half ago I purchased my beloved GSD from a BYB, at the time I didn't know any better but I love her to bits. Anyway, needless to say this guy was pretty bad and pretty much the stereotypical picture of a bad breeder. Junk everywhere, mother and father chained up (And quite aggressive), a few puppies huddling in the corner of the yard, automated feeders, bad food, those sorts of things.

It baffled me why people could treat dogs so badly, and why they would do it just for money. I always wanted a German Shepherd when I was younger, and when I finally got one it was happened to be from that guy. Ever since seeing how horrible some BYBs can be, I've gained an interest in German Shepherds and (possible) breeding, and I was wondering what a good breeder needs to know before even beginning to breed. All I wanted was a good quality GSD, that are well taken-care of and a good example of the breed (Temperment, Drive, etc). I didn't hate the guy at first, but as I started to research the GSD breed and look into what the good breeders thought of BYBs, I've grown to really be disgusted with what he did. I understand ignorance, but in this day and age I don't understand how someone can't simply get on the internet and start asking questions. I have a niece and nephew, both of which are very young. I would like them to be able to get a quality German Shepherd from someone who is genuinely interested in the breed and cares for it's future than someone like the BYB I got mine from.

I might not take up breeding in the future, and I might lose interest. I know that breeding takes a LOT of work (Time and frustration too) and that I'll need to committed see it through to the end once I start down the path of breeding German Shepherds, but that's for the future. I know that if I ever got a breeding prospect, I would have to train and title the dog rigorously, and that training is a valuable learning experience as it allows you to learn about the dog and it's personality/temperament/quirks.

Anyway, my questions are the following:

1. What do I need to know to be a good breeder? 

2. What do I need to know about the bloodlines?

3. I know titles aren't everything, and that even a titled dog can be 'unworthy' of being bred, so what makes a dog worthy, and how do you know if it's worthy or not?

4. I know conformity is more important in the show lines, but how important is it in the working lines, and where can I find more information on it in general?

5. I know working-line GSDs are generally not recommended for a pet-home, but shouldn't well-bred German Shepherds be able to exist in a pet-home as well as work?

6. I've heard you shouldn't cross the bloodlines, I know genetics are a fickle thing, but is there more information as to why it shouldn't be done?

7. Again, breeding isn't a near-thing, but if I were to buy a GSD, how can I minimize the chances that the dog I'm buying has the highest possible chance of being 'breed-able' genetics-wise?

8. I only have one GSD at the moment, when I first gained an interest I considered breeding her (for ALL of the wrong reasons), but after researching I know now that she shouldn't be bred. My 
question is this, is owning a well-bred German Shepherd a valuable learning experience, and if so, what can you learn as a (potential) dog-breeder/owner from having one?

9. I know hips and elbows should be tested at 2 years, and that even puppies that come from parents with Good/Excellent hips can still have bad hips, my question is this, is there anyway to mitigate 
the genetic factor? Vitamins perhaps? I've heard these things can be tested earlier, but that seems kind of unreliable.

10. I know you shouldn't breed puppies unless you have homes already lined up, but how do you go about 'getting the word out,' and making sure that good people are the one's getting the puppies?

11. I've heard that if a breeder ends up with dogs in the shelter, they shouldn't breed again, my question is this, what are some things to look for in a potential-owner to minimize the risk of a puppy ever ending up in a shelter, even years down the line?

10. I've heard that good breeders should sign up at their local kennel club, why is that? Do these clubs provide a sort of information that can't be found elsewhere?

11. How do you recognize a good example of the breed (and Bloodline)? I understand at dog shows the dogs there are supposed to be the best of the best, but pardon my skepticism.

12. What is the difference between a dog being trained to do something, and being GOOD at something? How can you tell the difference?

13. Is the GSD breed IMPROVING, or has it stagnated? And if it has stagnated, why has it happened?

14. I don't know if this is true, and pardon my ignorance - But if Max von Stephanitz was the one responsible for the GSD, and his ideology of quickly and aggressively removing health defects and other problems from the breed is a sound concept, why is it not used now? I understand that from an ethics point of view, mass cullings and the like is wrong, but I don't understand why feelings and ethics should be a factor when it comes towards improving the breed as a whole. Do ethics and 'good practices' really matter when it comes to the integrity of a species?

If I have an incorrect thought process about this and need to be educated, please correct me. It's just, seeing people like that BYB makes me so angry, and I would like for the future generation to not have to worry as much that their dog might have health problems, temperament problems, or the like. I know I might not ever breed, but I do know that it's not for the faint of heart, and if I'm to even consider this, I should know what I'm getting into first. Thanks for the help.

PS: If you think question 14 is horrifying, I'll have you know that it isn't intentional, it's just my Aspergers coming through. :frown2:


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Welcome to the forum. There is a lot of excellent information here. That's great that you are asking a lot of questions. Is there a Schutzhund or IPO club near you? That would be the best place to go to see GSD people and GSDs, IMO. 

Maybe your next step is to title your dog in a sport. Agility, dock diving, Schutzhund, or the show ring. Along the way of earning titles, you learn more about dogs. If you are especially interested in GSDs, titling in Schutzhund will teach you a lot. You may learn that breeding GSDs is a very complex activity and people spend years perfecting their lines, working their dogs, and take responsibility for taking back dogs that did not work out for their owners.

I hope you stay and read up on breeding.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Anyway, my questions are the following:

1. What do I need to know to be a good breeder? 

as much as you can. you need to learn basic genetics - how are traits inherited? what are the dominant colors, temperament traits, etc of the GSD? What are the recessives you need to watch for? How is temperament inherited? And, most importantly of all, you must decide what you want to produce. What is your goal - do you want to breed showline dogs? working dogs? dogs for IPO or sport work? herding dogs? obedience champions? Do you prefer showline or working line? Then, once you have your goal, you need to formulate a plan to reach it. A mentor (or several!) with the same or similar goals can be a godsend in teaching you things that you didn't even realize that you didn't know.

2. What do I need to know about the bloodlines?


everything, though not about every single bloodlie. Again, you need to have a goal in mind. If you want to breed dogs for the showring, you won't likely need to know the full info on Czech police dogs for example. that doesn't mean that you need to actually carry around all of that info in your head but it does meant that you need to know how to find out. A lot of great info will come from your mentor. You need to know what traits are carried in the bloodlines most common in your breeding dogs' pedigrees. You need to know what bloodlines are likely to be a good compliment for that pedigree and what bloodlines to avoid. You'll need to know what recessives are likely lurking in the pedigree - retained testicles? missing teeth? allergies? average lifespan? cancer? sketchy temperament? What strengths are there? 


3. I know titles aren't everything, and that even a titled dog can be 'unworthy' of being bred, so what makes a dog worthy, and how do you know if it's worthy or not?

titles aren't everything but they are a piece of the puzzle. especially for those new to evaluating dogs. The title isn't the goal - it's what you learn about the dog while achieving it. Is the dog solid in new environments? skittish of loud sounds or strange places? breaks under pressure? conformation needs improved for the next generation to be stronger competitors? It will also tell you what strong points the dog has. What makes a dog worthy is the total package and how the dog fits in with YOUR goals. If you are wanting to produce conformation dogs for the AKC ring, your "worthy" dog will likely be very different than someone who is producing dogs for sport work. And their ideal breeding dog would likely be a horrible fit for many programs seeking to produce the next AKC GCH. In the end, you want to breed the best examples of the breed that you can find. 

4. I know conformity is more important in the show lines, but how important is it in the working lines, and where can I find more information on it in general?

it is just as important in working lines. conformation is how a dog is put together. a dog with poor conformation won't be able to stand up to the rigors of training and the physical needs of the job. Agility, for example, requires strong joints, good musculature and a body that can stand up to jumping, changing direction at top speed, etc. A police dog needs a body capable of running, hard impact when taking down a suspect, strong jaws and correct head shape, etc etc
Researching the GSD standard is the best place to start to learn how, exactly, a GSD should be put together. 

5. I know working-line GSDs are generally not recommended for a pet-home, but shouldn't well-bred German Shepherds be able to exist in a pet-home as well as work?

actually, a working line GSD can do very well in a pet home. However, a well-bred GSD isn't going to be a couch potato and they are going to require training. So, in that regards, a gsd bred to need a job isn't going to do well in some pet homes. In an active pet home - hiking, obedience classes, and similar activities - can keep most active working line dogs happy. 

6. I've heard you shouldn't cross the bloodlines, I know genetics are a fickle thing, but is there more information as to why it shouldn't be done?

Bloodlines are simply family trees. I assume you are meaning type - working line, show line, pet line, etc? At this point, the individual lines are pretty far apart in looks and temperament. Part of it is just the great divide in breeding goals of the different camps. With careful study and a lot of luck, yes you could eventually be producing a dog that would be the best of both worlds. However, there are breeders doing that know within the individual groups. 
By itself it's not impossible but it can be twice the work. See #2 above. Instead of learning all of that info about just working line pedigrees or show you would need to learn it about both. And there isn't going to be much info to guide you in matching the best dogs because the bloodlines are going to be even more diverse. It can be done but you will have many people against you since they may view it as you throwing out the vision they have spent a lifetime trying to achieve.

7. Again, breeding isn't a near-thing, but if I were to buy a GSD, how can I minimize the chances that the dog I'm buying has the highest possible chance of being 'breed-able' genetics-wise?

This is the simplest of your questions - by your dog from a responsible breeder who is consistently producing dogs that are likely to be a good fit for your goals. Check that the parents have the correct titles and health tests. Sometimes buying a slightly older puppy can also take out some of the risk because you can have prelim x-rays done, the dog is started in training to prove that they have the potential to do the work you want, you can have health testing done for other factors, etc

8. I only have one GSD at the moment, when I first gained an interest I considered breeding her (for ALL of the wrong reasons), but after researching I know now that she shouldn't be bred. My 
question is this, is owning a well-bred German Shepherd a valuable learning experience, and if so, what can you learn as a (potential) dog-breeder/owner from having one?

You will learn with every dog you have. You've already learned a lot from her - you've learned some of the things NOT to do. Train her, title her in a fun activity, whatever has the two of you working together to achieve a goal. Think about what traits you would change. What things you like about her. Compare her structure to the standard and decide what you would prefer to see in your ideal dog. Learn about her pedigree and the dogs in it. You may have to go back several generations but you can start learning how to research. I think most people will tell you that they learned the most from their "worst" dogs

9. I know hips and elbows should be tested at 2 years, and that even puppies that come from parents with Good/Excellent hips can still have bad hips, my question is this, is there anyway to mitigate the genetic factor? Vitamins perhaps? I've heard these things can be tested earlier, but that seems kind of unreliable.

Diet. Keeping the dog lean. Don't over-stress developing joints. Don't spay/neuter before the dog is fully mature. Exercise to help proper muscle development. Also, preliminary xrays can be done much earlier than 2 years if you think that a puppy might have problems. Official results from PennHip can be done as early as 6 months (maybe 4, can't remember) though they don't test elbows. The SV will rate hips/elbows at 12 months. 2 years is simply the rule for OFA which is the procedure most people know best.

10. I know you shouldn't breed puppies unless you have homes already lined up, but how do you go about 'getting the word out,' and making sure that good people are the one's getting the puppies?

Having your dogs out there is a big factor. Training, competing, having your dogs in places that people can see and evaluate what they are and can do. Working with a mentor is another big benefit when it comes to this.

11. I've heard that if a breeder ends up with dogs in the shelter, they shouldn't breed again, my question is this, what are some things to look for in a potential-owner to minimize the risk of a puppy ever ending up in a shelter, even years down the line?


I wouldn't say that this is true. If a breeder CONSISTENTLY has dogs ending up in shelters then they need to re-evaluate a lot of things, especially their screenings of puppy buyers. The most important thing is simply keeping contact with your puppy buyers and them being willing to come to you if they have problems. 
10. I've heard that good breeders should sign up at their local kennel club, why is that? Do these clubs provide a sort of information that can't be found elsewhere?

11. How do you recognize a good example of the breed (and Bloodline)? I understand at dog shows the dogs there are supposed to be the best of the best, but pardon my skepticism.


Dog shows are simply to evaluate potential breeding stock. Same as any title and competition. Some dogs will be good. Some less so. Some will be fabulous. You simply need to take it as one piece of the puzzle in the total picture of the dog. 
12. What is the difference between a dog being trained to do something, and being GOOD at something? How can you tell the difference?

13. Is the GSD breed IMPROVING, or has it stagnated? And if it has stagnated, why has it happened?

I wouldn't say that it has stagnated. There are some people breeding for extremes in structure and some breeding for extremes in temperament. 

14. I don't know if this is true, and pardon my ignorance - But if Max von Stephanitz was the one responsible for the GSD, and his ideology of quickly and aggressively removing health defects and other problems from the breed is a sound concept, why is it not used now? I understand that from an ethics point of view, mass cullings and the like is wrong, but I don't understand why feelings and ethics should be a factor when it comes towards improving the breed as a whole. Do ethics and 'good practices' really matter when it comes to the integrity of a species?

Actually, this is still happening. It's simply not done in the same way. A responsible breeder sells pups that they don't want bred on a spay/neuter contract and with limited registration. 

If I have an incorrect thought process about this and need to be educated, please correct me. It's just, seeing people like that BYB makes me so angry, and I would like for the future generation to not have to worry as much that their dog might have health problems, temperament problems, or the like. I know I might not ever breed, but I do know that it's not for the faint of heart, and if I'm to even consider this, I should know what I'm getting into first. Thanks for the help.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

4. I know conformity is more important in the show lines, but how important is it in the working lines, and where can I find more information on it in general?

I don't think you mean conformity as in cookie cutter type , although that is the case with WGSL's - partly due to a narrowed , lack-of-diversity , gene pool.
I think you meant conformation , anatomy, angulation . 
That the WGSL's have this is hotly debated. 
Find any forum topic about roach backs, 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-breeder/672081-what-your-breeding-goals.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...646089-becoming-breeder-right-way-i-hope.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-wgsl-look-roach-backed-when-ot-stacked.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/671953-back-legs-movement.html

have fun


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Gonna be honest here. This list of questions tells me 1 thing. 

You need to just get out around GSD and trainers and handlers and shows and just learn. Just learn. 

There is no set of questions that can prepare you for breeding. None. 

You need to immerse yourself in the breed and start training, start trialing, start asking questions about pedigree, temperament, health. Take notes. Find people and dogs you like, pick their brain. 

Just stop, and learn. Stop and get into the breed. Volunteer with a rescue, go to training with your girl, visit kennels and breeders, research. 

I have been in this breed for 20 years. Can I answer your questions, sure. But I won't. Because you need to learn it for yourself. You need to figure out what you don't know. You need to be humbled by your dogs and watch others humbled by theirs. You need to figure out what you like and don't like in GSD and move forward from there. 

Talking about breeding 3 years into your first GSD is jumping the gun entirely.


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## Myobu (Oct 29, 2016)

gsdsar said:


> Gonna be honest here. This list of questions tells me 1 thing.
> 
> You need to just get out around GSD and trainers and handlers and shows and just learn. Just learn.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, although I wasn't thinking about breeding in the context of "I'm going to do it in 3 years, or it's a thing I definitely am going to do," simply wanted to know some of what I would be getting into if breeding became a more concrete possibility. I know getting into breeding now or in the near future (or even 10 years from now) would be a horrible idea, I don't have any experience on the topic, nor have I worked or shown dogs before - I just like to be a bit more prepared than one would be if they only looked into such things when they happened. 

I'll definitely start going to dog shows and try learning all I can, I just figured that even thinking about even the smallest possibility of breeding a dog or getting into the practice, even if one doesn't intend to breed, warrants at least trying to understand what it entails (responsibility, dedication, consequences of one's actions, etc).

I know trialing dogs is definitely a good thing and something that should be done, but I'm a bit hesitant. I mean, how do you guys do it? Being in front of so many people would make me so nervous. :frown2:


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

To add to gsdsar, as you find answers to each of your questions you should find yourself with 20 more questions on each one. The more you learn the more you learn there's always more to learn. I know you're looking to the future but your talking about taking a six foot jump before you've learned anything about a one foot jump (sorry, referencing horse jumping here, but hoping you get the correlation.) I'd suggest putting the question of breeding into a back closet and shutting the door for now. Go out and start doing the things people have suggested and try to find the answers to the questions you've asked. And do post about your adventures along the way! With pictures of course!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Agree with GSDSAR. You have to experience the breed to understand the breed. Without understanding the breed you can never do justice to what is a GSD. 

How do we get out there and trial? Take a deep breath, smile and do it. You practice enough so that it becomes just you and the dog with the judge in the background on trial day. You can't think about the people since they don't matter. Only you, your dog and the judge as a secondary thought. Nerves are normal. I started showing horses in the early 70's and dogs in the early 80's. I still get nervous especially before I go on the field. I am nervous on the field, but if my dog and I know our job then mostly we are concentrating on what we need to do.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Agree with GSDSAR. You have to experience the breed to understand the breed. Without understanding the breed you can never do justice to what is a GSD.
> 
> How do we get out there and trial? Take a deep breath, smile and do it. You practice enough so that it becomes just you and the dog with the judge in the background on trial day. You can't think about the people since they don't matter. Only you, your dog and the judge as a secondary thought. Nerves are normal. I started showing horses in the early 70's and dogs in the early 80's. I still get nervous especially before I go on the field. I am nervous on the field, but if my dog and I know our job then mostly we are concentrating on what we need to do.


I just wanted to add that going as an observer to competitions also contributes to confidence. Just by watching you can learn things. Dog people like to talk dogs and you can ask competitors questions and get help that way, also. I've seen people make mistakes and were still treated well when I was an observer. No one put them down, etc. When you take classes with people or belong to a club, those individuals cheer you on and console you if things didn't go just how you wanted.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*1. What do I need to know to be a good breeder? *
Experience. An open mind. The ability to know that not everybody will agree with what you do. The understanding that it takes literal blood, sweat, and tears. Hundreds upon hundreds of hours of study and dedication to the breed.

*2. What do I need to know about the bloodlines?*
See above, plus connections that can discuss pedigrees with you in terms of health and drives. Understanding family lines and what crosses well and what should not be crossed ever.

*3. I know titles aren't everything, and that even a titled dog can be 'unworthy' of being bred, so what makes a dog worthy, and how do you know if it's worthy or not?*
Opinion. There's always a reason somebody wouldn't breed a dog that you would.

*4. I know conformity is more important in the show lines, but how important is it in the working lines, and where can I find more information on it in general?*
Kind of an open ended question. I would say that the most structural variety is in the WL, the least in the WGSL, and AmLines falling somewhere in the middle of that. There are obvious stylistic differences to me in the AmLines (that is what I have) that are not so obvious in the WGSL, though they do exist.

*5. I know working-line GSDs are generally not recommended for a pet-home, but shouldn't well-bred German Shepherds be able to exist in a pet-home as well as work?*
Yes, they should. I personally find a dog that can't operate as a good pet to be faulty. A GSD isn't a couch potato breed, but that doesn't mean they should be so neurotic as to be unable to chill out if they don't get out for a couple of days.

*6. I've heard you shouldn't cross the bloodlines, I know genetics are a fickle thing, but is there more information as to why it shouldn't be done?*
There are various opinions on it. Not everybody agrees. There are breeders that can give your opinion on it from every angle. Best GSD I've had was a crossline dog.

*7. Again, breeding isn't a near-thing, but if I were to buy a GSD, how can I minimize the chances that the dog I'm buying has the highest possible chance of being 'breed-able' genetics-wise?*
Buy an adult

*8. I only have one GSD at the moment, when I first gained an interest I considered breeding her (for ALL of the wrong reasons), but after researching I know now that she shouldn't be bred. My 
question is this, is owning a well-bred German Shepherd a valuable learning experience, and if so, what can you learn as a (potential) dog-breeder/owner from having one?*
Owning a poorly bred specimen can teach you far more than a well bred one. More troubleshooting to do many times. Not always, but many times.

*9. I know hips and elbows should be tested at 2 years, and that even puppies that come from parents with Good/Excellent hips can still have bad hips, my question is this, is there anyway to mitigate 
the genetic factor? Vitamins perhaps? I've heard these things can be tested earlier, but that seems kind of unreliable.*
No. Things will be what they will be. One cannot rule out environment as a cause for HD/ED. If you want to supplement, do. If you don't, no harm no file.

*10. I know you shouldn't breed puppies unless you have homes already lined up, but how do you go about 'getting the word out,' and making sure that good people are the one's getting the puppies?*
I've been around on forums and what not for a lot of years. People have followed me. Now I get referrals. 

You should try to have homes lined up beforehand, yes, but lists aren't foolproof, whether you take deposits or not. Life can get in the way, you may not have a match for the owner, you have a list of people that want females and your entire litter is males...

There are no promises in breeding.

*11. I've heard that if a breeder ends up with dogs in the shelter, they shouldn't breed again, my question is this, what are some things to look for in a potential-owner to minimize the risk of a puppy ever ending up in a shelter, even years down the line?*
I'd ask how a breeder ended up with a dog in the shelter. An irresponsible owner that put the dog there without letting the breeder know, or the breeder put the dog there themselves?

Minimizing the risk? The reality is you do the best you can. You cannot predict everything. You cannot prepare for every eventuality, no matter how hard you try.

I had to repossess a puppy from my very first litter...and that puppy was sold to someone I knew who was a friend. How could I have predicted that?

*10. I've heard that good breeders should sign up at their local kennel club, why is that? Do these clubs provide a sort of information that can't be found elsewhere*?
Eh, it depends on so many things. Not everybody has a club immediately available to them. Not everybody likes the club that is available. Some people don't need clubs at all. It's not a mark of quality.

*11. How do you recognize a good example of the breed (and Bloodline)? I understand at dog shows the dogs there are supposed to be the best of the best, but pardon my skepticism.*
Time and experience, opinion, study. I like a good German Shepherd Dog. Line is immaterial to me if it's a nice dog. But you should be able to look at any GSD and recognize a quality animal without immediately dismissing it because it is not your preferred style.

*12. What is the difference between a dog being trained to do something, and being GOOD at something? How can you tell the difference?*
More experience, more watching. You can tell the difference between a dog that enjoys its work and a dog that is doing what it is asked.

My current performance bitch is very "up" when I ask her to do obedience type things or tracking. She is crazy for sheep. Get her in the show ring, and she just kind of goes through the motions. Her brother, on the other hand, is very "LOOK AT ME!" in the ring. Free stacks constantly, is always bright and alert, shows his heart out.

*13. Is the GSD breed IMPROVING, or has it stagnated? And if it has stagnated, why has it happened?*
I no longer believe in "breed improvement". I personally look to improve on the dogs I have in my kennel, but I won't affect the breed long term most likely. Most breeders won't. They're too small.

Breeding, like anything else, follows fads and the needs of the world. The breed today is nothing like it was when it began and will be nothing like it is now in another 100 years.

*14. I don't know if this is true, and pardon my ignorance - But if Max von Stephanitz was the one responsible for the GSD, and his ideology of quickly and aggressively removing health defects and other problems from the breed is a sound concept, why is it not used now? I understand that from an ethics point of view, mass cullings and the like is wrong, but I don't understand why feelings and ethics should be a factor when it comes towards improving the breed as a whole. Do ethics and 'good practices' really matter when it comes to the integrity of a species?*
Ethics and inegrity always matter. 

Culling is simply removing from the gene pool. Spaying and neutering was not common place back then. Today it is a routine and simple surgery. Spayed/neutered animals are culls. They live happily as pets.

There is no reason to kill healthy animals in 2016 when they can be placed as pets and altered or never used.


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