# BYB's vs Working Breeders vs Pedigree Breeders



## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

I'm not really sure how to title it..... but that pretty much sums it up, I guess?

I lucked into one of my dogs. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I got him from someone who had no idea what they had. They'd got him from an unfortunate situation and thought he would be "fun".... and turned out he wasn't necessarily a "fun" type of dog. They called me to help find him a home, sent me his "papers" and some pics and videos of him and after talking with some people, I decided to bring him in and give him a good once over and see what happened. Needless to say, he stayed and has been an exceptional addition to our farm. 

After seeing what he's doing and how pleased we are with him, they've contacted me about buying him back, several times. They have a "girl" they want to breed him to. If I won't sell him, will I stud him? No. We don't "stud" our dogs, they breed only on our farm, to our dogs. 

I see a couple days ago, that these people have purchased a pup. They've posted pics of his parents. He's newborn, I'd say only a couple days old in the pics, and they're planning on breeding him next year for "Christmas Puppies". Then they send me an email, with a pic of him and his parents, asking what I think of them. Nice, normal looking GSD's... but not a very good pic, they're both sitting. I ask what their pedigree looks like. "Don't know. No papers." Then I ask why they're planning on breeding him and they say "Because it's fun."

Last night, I see on FB that they've posted the evilness of a breeder offering "limited registration" and how if someone buys a dog, it is theirs to do with what they please. 

After several random comments, I chime in my opinion, that there are many good reasons for breeders to not offer full registration, such as 1. some dogs just don't need to be bred, and 2. that "paper" offers proof, lineage, history and documented potential of the pup they belong to. No, they don't guarantee that your pup will work or perform, but at least you know what you're getting and what the potential is.

This simple statements turns into a bashing, with one man "informing" me that working dogs don't come with papers, and if you're selling a "papered" dog, you're selling a piece of paper not the dog and he'd never buy a "papered" dog because he wants to be able to take his dog and do with it what he wants, when he wants, and not have any "paper" telling him it's ok. He then goes on to inform me that he saw the pictures of my dogs and some pictures of my dogs working and thinks I'm full of sh*t because obviously someone with as "clouded thoughts" as I have regarding "papering dogs" can't have dogs that work like mine do, it's just not possible. 

So, this man claims to be a "Working Breeder" that looks at each dog individually and doesn't need a pedigree or "proven bloodline" to decide if a dog will be a good dog and characterized me as a "Pedigree Breeder" who bases a dogs worth on it's "papers" and said I use the term "Back Yard Breeder" like it's a bad thing. (And let me just say, I do not base a dogs worth on it's papers, but I do believe it's a good idea to have some idea based on their lineage as to what they could become.)

Our conversation ended with me saying "You do what you do, I'll do what I do and that's that. I don't agree with your thought process, you don't agree with mine, we'll just have to agree to disagree."


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

Now, I do know a lot of people with working dogs of various breeds that are not registered and don't have a paper trail to their lineage. But these are people who use their dogs for their own personal work, and don't breed them. I'm not saying that's wrong, I've done it myself and most certainly will again at some point in the future. A dog's worth is not based on it's papers. A dog can be a valuable asset to it's handler, regardless of what it's pedigree and lineage look like... but if you're breeding and selling dogs, I think you should have some proof to support what you're claiming the dog is capable of. 

Is my thinking faulted? Am I biased?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I only have my own experience to go by but when I got my Buddy 11 years ago the working lines I found in my area were UKC. There was real distaste for AKC dogs.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

I don't think this gentleman has a specified distaste for AKC dogs, I think he has an issue with ALL registered dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Of course the people in UKC are going to diss AKC unless their dogs are registered in both venues. Lots of white breeders do both registrations because they can show their dog in UKC, but still want them to be AKC registered. If I wanted a white, I would go that route. 

I think that you, mehpenn, just hooked up with a typical BYB mentality. Yes, LOTS of BYBs offer papers. Some do not. This guy started out breeding without papers, and now papers and papered dogs are worthless because his are not. He is dissing them to try to make his dogs look better. Doesn't work. 

The dog knows nothing about papers. The dog is what he is, papers or not. He can be extraordinary all around. Or he can have serious faults. I agree with you, that if you want to breed dogs, then having them registered, which is the best way to ensure the dog's lineage, is the first step. Hopping that first step is like building a house without a foundation.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

I hope by "hooked up" you don't mean "actively do business with"..... I was fortunate to get such an amazing dog from the situation, but have no desire to interact in any way with them in the future or the gentleman they're apparent friends with that feels his breeding program is adequate. LOL. I just want to clarify that. 

As it turns out, the dog I got from them is a nicely bred dog from a well know, local kennel, and has a very impressive pedigree. I was really surprised that they had the "issues" they claimed to have, but once I began working with him, I fully realized his former owners were the issue, not him. Looking back, I'm glad they don't put a lot of stock in "papers" because had they known what they had, there's no way I could have gotten him for the price I did. That limited interaction with them told me every thing I needed to know about their "knowledge" of the breed.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

Let me start off by saying I am not a breeder, nor will I ever be one. It seems alot of work and I don't think I can devote that much of myself to that. I have been a lifetime dog owner, have gotten pups from BYB's and breeders. Different reasons for both. 

I currently have 2 boys, 9 mos with papers, 5 mos without papers. The younger pup I didn't buy (my other pup was only 6 months at the time), I adopted from a coworker who was in over her head. The pup, Ivan, is a working line and she wasn't prepared for what that meant. (She never owned a large breed) I know the breeder he comes from, the man she got Ivan from got his dogs on limited registration from there. So he's breeding without papers and not educating potential buyers on what they are getting into. Ivan is a lot of dog lol.

Although I never intend to breed either of my boys, I would love to know exactly where Ivan comes from, the breeder has several dogs. Just knowing I can't compete in any AKC venue kills me, I have no intention to neuter unless we run into problems, I believe dogs are healthier with their hormones.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say except I wish more people were more into bettering the breed than bettering their pockets. Limited registrations do not stop breedings, so why not a spay/neuter contract if not full registration?

I'm sorry for rambling lol I just so wish there was a way to know who Ivan is even tho I didn't buy him.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

My Ivan


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dude's mom, Ivan looks like a very nice West German Show Line puppy. 

The breeder is an idiot for breeding on a limited registration. But there is no reason why you should not go ahead and get a PAL for the dog and show in obedience, rally, tracking, herding, or any other AKC sport save conformation. You will need to neuter, but there is no hurry. 

Dogs are sold on a limited registration for a number of reasons. The one that makes sense to me is if there is a fault, like cryptorchid or ears down, or off color. The limited registration allows you to show in anything save conformation without altering your pup. No it does not prevent puppies from the mix, but hopefully it prevents some heritable diseases to continue to infect the bloodlines, and get progressively worse.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

mehpenn said:


> I hope by "hooked up" you don't mean "actively do business with"..... I was fortunate to get such an amazing dog from the situation, but have no desire to interact in any way with them in the future or the gentleman they're apparent friends with that feels his breeding program is adequate. LOL. I just want to clarify that.
> 
> As it turns out, the dog I got from them is a nicely bred dog from a well know, local kennel, and has a very impressive pedigree. I was really surprised that they had the "issues" they claimed to have, but once I began working with him, I fully realized his former owners were the issue, not him. Looking back, I'm glad they don't put a lot of stock in "papers" because had they known what they had, there's no way I could have gotten him for the price I did. That limited interaction with them told me every thing I needed to know about their "knowledge" of the breed.



Nah, you can "hook-up" with someone all you want, just don't get yourself "hitched" to a clod like that one.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for the compliment, he certainly adds alot of excitement round here lol!

I don't mean to highjack the thread but I thought you couldn't get a PAL until after neutering?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yupp.



selzer said:


> Dude's mom, Ivan looks like a very nice West German Show Line puppy.
> 
> The breeder is an idiot for breeding on a limited registration. But there is no reason why you should not go ahead and get a PAL for the dog and show in obedience, rally, tracking, herding, or any other AKC sport save conformation. *You will need to neuter, but there is no hurry*.
> 
> Dogs are sold on a limited registration for a number of reasons. The one that makes sense to me is if there is a fault, like cryptorchid or ears down, or off color. The limited registration allows you to show in anything save conformation without altering your pup. No it does not prevent puppies from the mix, but hopefully it prevents some heritable diseases to continue to infect the bloodlines, and get progressively worse.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can go to all the matches you want, register on the same day, do obedience and Rally, and when he is old enough to where you are ok with neutering, then get his PAL, and start showing him.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks, I'll definitely be looking into that. I've been tracking with both pups and would love to get their titles.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

selzer said:


> Nah, you can "hook-up" with someone all you want, just don't get yourself "hitched" to a clod like that one.


:happyboogie:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP, step one...never chime in on Facebook about dog things. It always ends bad.

I do find it funny that the guy you ran into claims to be a "working dog" breeder but without papers you really can't "work" your dogs. I highly doubt that he's breeding dogs for the military and police departments since maybe you'll get one out of ten to get into that type of program and then the other nine are most likely sport dogs or at least "working pet homes."

Limited registration DOES prevent breeding when people respect the contract. And trust me, even a neuter/spay contract could just as easily be broken. Truth is...and maybe breeders will chime in, but I don't see a breeder filing a lawsuit in order to force completion of a contract. At the same time...I don't see a courtroom even wanting to accept that type of lawsuit. So a limited registration can make someone think twice about breeding their dog if their area does want papered puppies. My area is very big on and its very easy to get an AKC registered purebred dog. You're talking about at least a $300 premium for that piece of paper, and most people do search out AT LEAST that. So if you just know that about your area...as a person thinking about breeding...it will at least slow you down knowing you'll get at minimum $300 less per pup or you'll possibly have difficulties selling all of them.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I do find it funny that the guy you ran into claims to be a "working dog" breeder but without papers you really can't "work" your dogs.


Are you talking about real work or competing in sports like Sch? Dogs don't need papers to work.


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## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

I agree with Mehpen that a dogs potential is shown by a pedigree, but not all dogs perform to the standard that the papers indicate. Likewise some un-papered dogs do some very amazing things too. A lot of what you get from a dog is directly proportional to what you put in. If you put in love, tolerance and affection on a consistent and regular basis you will usually get a very compassionate dog in return. Instill a little discord and you can create a formidable personal protection dog. A dogs worth is measured more by what he is than what you would like him to be. No amount of paper will ever make or break any particular dog, the handler on the other hand will. The "gent" on the other site is also one who probably thinks every pit bull is evil and doomed to fight their entire life. Cesar's dog Daddy disproves that resoundingly. I guess in time I will be considered a BYB because I will have limited numbers of dogs and limited space devoted to the endeavor. But my goal is to create a very strong line of particular traits and my breeding program will be designed to produce dogs that ultimately conform to the traits that I consider important. However it will never be about the money because we intend to give every one of the dogs away to a person who needs a top of the line assistance animal tailored to their specific needs. So traits like loyalty, devotion, focus, and manners are more important to me than athletic potential or the ability to sniff out a cadaver. It all goes back to different dogs for different needs and whether we can create a dog that fills that particular need. 

Wheelchair Bob


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Are you talking about real work or competing in sports like Sch? Dogs don't need papers to work.


No they don't, but in today's world the majority of "working dogs" are those that are training in something that yes...in reality isn't "work." But if someone tells me they're a working dog breeder...I don't believe they're pumping out litters and litters of police dogs and military dogs. Mostly because I know that that's not how the system works anyways and that the guy OP was arguing with was probably just throwing some working line GSDs together and making a quick buck with the fact that today the market for those dogs is growing very quickly. At the same time...if you are consistently producing "real working dogs" I don't think you need the need to defend yourself or your breeding practices/decisions on facebook with a stranger.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Are you talking about real work or competing in sports like Sch? Dogs don't need papers to work.


I believe this guy does Schutzhund, but I can't be 100% sure about that. Several times during our... conversation... he referred to "biting dogs."

My dogs work on our farm and that's where the majority of our pups go... but even then, I wouldn't imagine breeding them if they didn't have the supporting paperwork to prove where they came from and what they're potential is.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

martemchik said:


> At the same time...if you are consistently producing "real working dogs" I don't think you need the need to defend yourself or your breeding practices/decisions on facebook with a stranger.


Referring to me? I wasn't defending my breeding program or the papers my dogs carry with this man. I was... discussing... the benefit and importance of the papers, especially if you're breeding for a specific trait and marketing your pups as such.


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