# Some concerns I have about starting ecollar training



## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

How can you tell if the e-collar is for your dog, or not? Is it a straight forward thing? Will all dogs do well with it? And what can possibly go wrong? Like lets say I am careful and use Lou's methods tested and safe methods like Lou's, or go with a well recommended trainer. Is there a chance that the dog may not do well with it? And how would I know if its adversely affecting his temperament, etc? Would it be immediately apparent, or apparent over time, as in he gets spooked easily, is nervous, anxious, becomes aggressive etc?

Hope someone doesn't mind educating me. These are my fears , and as much as I feel an ecollar will help with recall and further training, I just cannot decide.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Despite all the input I still cannot decide. :blush:

Would fresh cookies help?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

How old is the dog?

What are your goals?

How does the trainer implement the e-collar into training?

How much experience do you have in training?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ive seen some dogs not do well on it. Those same dogs didnt do well under any kind of pressure and froze up and locked down very easily even if velvet gloved. They are very rare IME though.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

David

I have zero experience in training, this is my first dog, ever. Just learnt a lot from some members here and books and videos and one particular positive trainer. (Pam Dennison)

He is 13 months old now, I have been training him on a long lead in parks, take him to Petco, outside grocery stores etc. He does have reactivity to other dogs, but I keep my distance, still do counter conditioning, this is improving. In group classes he is fine once I start working with him, he can focus and ignore other dogs as long as I can keep him on his toes. If I play tug or we just move around heeling, focus, playing catch it games, then he doesn't care about the other dogs.

We did obedience, a bit of agility, which he did very well but it was a challenge to me. The trainer that I was going to feels that he is past obedience, even on a long lead and is not challenged enough. And we need to use the ecollar to take him to the next level. I have my reasons for doubting her judgement just on past experiences. (for instance, when in class I would look at him often to catch him looking at me, and praise him, reward him with smiles, eye contacts and treats for watching me and being calm because I know how reactive he is to other dogs, and she would say 'stop looking at that dog' ,while at the same time using him to demonstrate to other people how to get focus, she did not allow me to play games to counter condition him to dogs and their movement around him, just wanted me to use corrections for perfect obedience. I had to join another positive training school for this. Maybe she was right about it, but I wanted him to be relax around other dogs and then be obedient, not stressed and be obedient out of fear.)

My goals are for him to be a dog with a solid calm relaxed temperament that I can take everywhere. I am considering working towards a CD, CDX and perhaps do a bit of nosework and agility with him. This is more to keep him occupied and satisied because I do see that he gets satisfied and calmer when he obeys me. He is happy to laze around and relax afterwards. 

Hope this gives a good idea. Do tell me what you think, and thank you for the time.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I do use a prong on him now to give me control when we approach other dogs. 
But I am not good with this tool, I feel. And he stops pulling towards them simply because of the prong, not because I have been able to correct. Either my timing is off or the correction is not hard enough. I am working on it though, and generally seem to be improving.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

You don't need an ecollar to train anything. It is certainly a good tool, provided you learn to use it, and you can learn it now, later, 10 years from now. If you are really worried about using it, don't. 

Dog training is timing and consistency, learn to work within what you are comfortable with for now and you'll go a long ways. Once you're more comfortable, have more experience and know a bit more, maybe an ecollar won't be as scary or worrisome to you. You'll be able to make that decision if you want to use it and if you think it would be best for your dog. 

my dogs will follow commands 500 yards away if I can yell loud enough. not using an ecollar has never been a limiting factor in our training and I'd put mine up against anybody and i think i'm pretty lazy when it comes to training 

I have no issues with using an ecollar as long as it's not a command and fry type use. But if someone thinks a dog isn't being challenged in it's training because it's not wearing an ecollar, I'd say the trainer is challenged in their thinking and needs to step out of their box. The challenge doesn't come from the tool, or at least shouldn't.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup it is nice but isnt necessary.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I think her reasoning was that it would give me more control and a good recall around other dogs. Which does make sense, to be fair.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

What is the trainer trying to achieve with the collar? Your dog sounds like he's coming along well, and if he's bored with training, I'm not sure what the collar is meant to achieve? I've never used it before, though, so I have no idea. 


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Eiros said:


> What is the trainer trying to achieve with the collar? Your dog sounds like he's coming along well, and if he's bored with training, I'm not sure what the collar is meant to achieve? I've never used it before, though, so I have no idea.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



To giving me more distance control and be able to call him away from other dogs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The reason youre sorta hitting a wall with the prong is that the prong was being used to help restrain the dog instead of its true purpose which is to create and maintain behavior. Used correctly if you drop the leash the dog should hold position. If he doesnt then you punish. Youll run into a similar problem with the ecollar at some point if you only use teaching level stims. At some point you have to punish the decision to blow off your command. This is only done when you are sure the dog knows what hes supposed to do but decides not to comply.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I have a dog that used to be dog reactive on leash. All that was solved with a prong but we use an e collar now for off leash ob and because she has multiple handlers (me and my bf) so it brings consistency to corrections.

In my opinion if you struggle with prong timing and communication an e collar will be worse for you until you get good at that. One advantage of a prong is you can use the leash to give the command a direction and it makes communication easier (ie upward jerk for disobeying sit, down for disobeying down) an e collar needs precision in timing if you take away the leash guide. Thats just my personal experience though. I really like precision for timing but it definitely takes practice. 

I love it for recall.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Okay. I see that now. Usually he is good with a verbal correction. So I havent been using the prong much generally. But i will keep that in mind now on. 


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

He sounds like he is mostly good with verbal corrections and you have a great dog. I'd be suspicious of any trainer who told you to correct instead of engaging your dog in class. But that's just my opinion.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Megos right. I usually teach on prong then layer the ecollar over the prong after the dog is familiar with whats going on and then the prong and leash goes away. The direction thing is important.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My insights are

-The ecollar is a tool that requires a better sense of timing and "reading the dog" than other methods
-In the right hands it can be a great training tool
-You have to leave it on the dog and it must be VERY snug (but same is true of prong if used properly)

It's a big decision for many. I am not opposed to the tool but decided to stick with the prong after spending 3 days with a 30+ year police master trainer during certification testing and that is with a dog expected to work offlead. He said we really did not need it in his opinion. Part of my decision was that most of the police trainers I *do* know use a correction approach, and I don't know anyone in my own area well versed in Lou's approaches. I really would want one on one with a trusted mentor to use this tool.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I will work with the prong for now. Please tell me how you use it for reactivity. 


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Sri said:


> I think her reasoning was that it would give me more control and a good recall around other dogs. Which does make sense, to be fair.



and you don't need an ecollar for that. you can use one, but if you're really worried about it, don't. you don't need to. I promise my dogs will recall when running with other dogs and playing. I don't have control issues and my current dogs have never worn an ecollar. My battery wore out on my last dog and i'm too cheap to buy a new one  So, I've had to train it other ways and it really isn't any different.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sri ill let someone else go into the how to teach heeling or loose leash walking part, but once you have it you up the level of distraction while doing it and either use punishment or negative reinforcement if the dog breaks the behavior. Once you have a solid behavior if the dog breaks behavior to get reactive you punish. The dog understands after all those reps the punishment was because of breaking behavior instead of seeing a dog or whatever superstition their lemon brain might come up with.

Ive seen dogs given the chance that would murder any dog they saw completely non reactive and calm and under control just off obedience. No counter conditioning necessary although it would make it easier. The obedience can make the counter conditioning easier too.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

crackem said:


> and you don't need an ecollar for that. you can use one, but if you're really worried about it, don't. you don't need to. I promise my dogs will recall when running with other dogs and playing. I don't have control issues and my current dogs have never worn an ecollar. My battery wore out on my last dog and i'm too cheap to buy a new one  So, I've had to train it other ways and it really isn't any different.



Okay 


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Sri ill let someone else go into the how to teach heeling or loose leash walking part, but once you have it you up the level of distraction while doing it and either use punishment or negative reinforcement if the dog breaks the behavior. Once you have a solid behavior if the dog breaks behavior to get reactive you punish. The dog understands after all those reps the punishment was because of breaking behavior instead of seeing a dog or whatever superstition their lemon brain might come up with.
> 
> Ive seen dogs given the chance that would murder any dog they saw completely non reactive and calm and under control just off obedience. No counter conditioning necessary although it would make it easier. The obedience can make the counter conditioning easier too.



Thanks Bailiff. Yes, currently working on heeling. 


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Sri, I've an 2 year old intact male that I can recall him from any distance, whether or not he's with other dogs, or if he sees a rabbit/deer and decides to give chase. I trained him using a whistle, indeed I've seen him practically spin mid-sprint to return on hearing it. I've never used a e-collar ( without disregarding them either). I think the secret to recall is a combination of energetic sound ( which is why I use a whistle, never sounds angry or irritated) and the firmly embedded notion in my dog's head that the whistle involves WAY more fun/work than anything he could locate or create for himself.
Archer is not a hard drive dog, he's SL, and pretty confident in himself, so I can't say if this would be suitable for your dog, but I thought you should know, distance and recall are no problems sans e-collar for some dogs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That and you can always mark and provide an unplesant conseqence for non compliance if it comes to that. So many people mark rewards and forget you can mark punishment too then close the distance and then provide the consequence. E collars ofc do it much faster but a long line and prong would work pretty well too.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Arlene/Archer said:


> Sri, I've an 2 year old intact male that I can recall him from any distance, whether or not he's with other dogs, or if he sees a rabbit/deer and decides to give chase. I trained him using a whistle, indeed I've seen him practically spin mid-sprint to return on hearing it. I've never used a e-collar ( without disregarding them either). I think the secret to recall is a combination of energetic sound ( which is why I use a whistle, never sounds angry or irritated) and the firmly embedded notion in my dog's head that the whistle involves WAY more fun/work than anything he could locate or create for himself.
> Archer is not a hard drive dog, he's SL, and pretty confident in himself, so I can't say if this would be suitable for your dog, but I thought you should know, distance and recall are no problems sans e-collar for some dogs.


Hi Arlene, Mine is 13 months old, unneutered, working line . Thank you for the response. I've heard of the whistle recall. Mine does well on recalls, in fact he loves them and I love watching him race to me with a big grin on his face. I am going to try the whistle recall. We like to go camping or hiking and It would be great to have more reliability.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If your worried about screwing the timing on the e collar keep the levels low. I like MEs vids on E Collar training for beginners looking to get started.
My only thing is I hate screwing with a long line hence why I prefer the E Collar.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Each training tool (including food) has its strengths and weaknesses but if I only got to choose one tool to train my dog with it would hands down be an ecollar.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Sri said:


> Hi Arlene, Mine is 13 months old, unneutered, working line . Thank you for the response. I've heard of the whistle recall. Mine does well on recalls, in fact he loves them and I love watching him race to me with a big grin on his face. I am going to try the whistle recall. We like to go camping or hiking and It would be great to have more reliability.


That's cool  I've trained Archer to go left (one peep) and right (two peeps), wait/ halt (sharp triple peep) and 'to me' (Double short, one long) all on the whistle, as he seems to really like this kind of 'work'- which I guess is the herding instinct kicking in. 
Initially I looked like a total wally blowing my whistle around the 'wilderness' (actually rough parkland) where we train and exercise in the mornings, but now people are starting to ask me about it as Archer is so quick to respond and one lady is in the process of training her dog to the whistle as well. 
I'm teaching him a 'go wide' signal at the moment as I find this to be one of THE most important commands when we're out for dealing with approaching dogs or people who look a little nervous. He already understands it verbally ( I use it when we run in the city), but I'd like to put it to the whistle for off lead work. It's actually quite pleasant to have people compliment you on your dog's behaviour (especially when the decks are sometimes stacked against GSDs) and it allows Archer valuable off lead time to socialise or not (as he chooses) with other dogs. 
Best of luck with your dog! I found 13 months really interesting  but it was really around the 18 month mark that ALL of Archer's training seemed to come together and now at 2 he is an absolute gem. The photo of include is one of him cooling himself mid a 10k city run ( that's why he's wearing a harness), and being polite to inquisitive swans. As you can see, he does not bother or annoy them in any way, all of this was taught using positive training


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh how wonderful! He looks gorgeous even from the back. Love how he is watching the swans curious but relaxed. I would love to teach Frodo all of this with the whistle. Right now he will run where I am pointing and stop and turn when I say 'there'. Actually I don't know how he got that, just evolved from playing i guess. How can I teach him this? Any link to a video or guide much appreciated. . 


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Sri said:


> Oh how wonderful! He looks gorgeous even from the back. Love how he is watching the swans curious but relaxed. I would love to teach Frodo all of this with the whistle. Right now he will run where I am pointing and stop and turn when I say 'there'. Actually I don't know how he got that, just evolved from playing i guess. How can I teach him this? Any link to a video or guide much appreciated. .
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Heh, a few seconds later he was all, 'ah yes, swans, good day to you, I'll be on my way in a moment.'

I'm sorry I don't have a video, but I will try to explain as best I can. Regarding lefts and rights and so on, I trained Archer using fetching games to teach direction and a hand signal for halt. I'd throw his ball left and reinforce it with the whistle at the same time. The right/whistle and so on. For halt, I put my hand up as he approached and the first time he stopped I added sound. When he was stopping on the sound at all times approaching, I then included the sound while he was traveling away from me, and he nailed it after a few confused looks. Now he stops dead on it, which of course is very useful for a number of reasons.
For a young dog, he's incredibly focused during this kind of game and early on I noticed he was inclined to ignore dogs while anticipating the throw. Using that as my starting point, I often delayed the throws/whistle until sometimes a dog would nearly be on top of us, then release Archer on the whistle the moment I thought he might break- a sort of reward for his patience/tolerance. 
Over time he became SO uninterested and relaxed around other dogs he now views them as a mild impediment to his fun and games and is remarkably calm and easy going in dog company. I pack walk him once a week too, which seems to be a great confidence builder. He's not the largest dog in the group, and must be well-behaved. When there are occasional spats within the group (usually amongst the bitches. heh) I can give the 'go wide' command, which keeps him out of trouble, and I ALWAYS throw something for him when he does this, to reinforce and again reward his compliance.
Hope this helps a little!


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

A lot! And it is very encouraging. Wish you lived closer!


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Sri said:


> A lot! And it is very encouraging. Wish you lived closer!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That would be fun! Well, enjoy your lovely dog and best of luck with the training, be patient, be consistent and have fun.


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## Lee Taylor (Mar 27, 2014)

*Concerns*

Sri,
Haven't read Lou's e collar info but I train with E collars and will share some of what I know 1st hand.
To begin with not all e collars are created equal!! Again, not all e collars are the same. I only use Dogtra but what is imperative is that you need many levels of stimulation. Some Dogtra models have 100, some models have more.
The last thing you want is a piece of junk that has 6,8,10 or 12 levels. They hurt like **** once above the 1-2 level! The last thing we're trying to do is cause pain or any type of fear. Please don't even consider such. Yet that is typically what is sold at the big Pet stores. 
The goal is to start training ( the come command is always the 1st command I begin with as this is the easiest way for a dog to learn , in essence, how to turn off the stim and get rewarded with verbal praise ) with the absolute minimal stimulation ( lowest level) required to get your dog's attention thus to comply with the command given. I Begin with a long line and call the dog 'come'.As soon as I have your dog's attention and he / she is following the command the stim stops and I enthusiastically give verbal praise. Make it fun. Typically, doesn't take too many reps ( even if the dog has never been taught to come before) before your dog clearly understands what is being asked. It is amazing to see how effective it is when a competent trainer does it. The come command is the foundation for e collar training so put in the reps and don't be like so many owners that are amazed at how "awesome" or "easy" it is that they don't perform countless reps. This is where you gain confidence and timing but most importantly where you use positive reinforcement / make it fun for your dog.
Remember the emphasis is on rewarding the desired behavior, yet you have the ultimate, immediate correction device (using the minimal amount of stimulation) to get your dog to focus / refocus.

Much like a gun, an e collar in the right hands is a beautiful thing. An e collar in the wrong hands or used by someone with anger issues or incompetence is a disaster waiting to happen. I swear I don't wish to get in a debate but it is my experience and opinion that an e collar is the most effective and efficient way to teach basic obedience and solve behavior issues ( when in the hands of a professional that knows how to use it properly). I chuckle when others claim they'd put their training method up against it..especially teaching 'HeeL' ...if they only knew!! As far as bullet proof recall..it is the ultimate peace of mind in ANY distraction.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Not going sat I'm opposed to the E collar but as others have said you need to know what your doing.
Maybe these links are helpful?


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Lee Taylor said:


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 Thanks Lee Taylor . Yes, I understand how efficient a tool the ecollar can be, If/when I decide to use it I will definitely find a good trainer. More than anything, right now he is at an age where I can't take him offleash, and in the summer our family is out in the nature quite a bit. 




Chip18 said:


> [/url]


Chip18, thanks  I did see these videos from when you posted them earlier in response to someone else's question . they've helped me get better too.


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