# We quit our dog obedience class!!!



## bethandglen (Jan 5, 2009)

It was just too much, Lexi was MISERABLE the entire time. She whined and cried, had her ears down, cowered down on the floor, I was just about in tears! This was the worst she's ever been there, she was clearly UNHAPPY and I had had enough! I told my husband we couldn't do this to her anymore and he agreed. The instructor was upsetting me so much, she kept going up to the dogs, yanking the leash from their owner and jerking the leash HARD with both hands when the dogs "misbehaved" (normal dog behavior in my opinion, I'm sure most of them were just protesting the treatment they were receiving!) She even had this little tiny dog, like a little rat terrier with a prong collar on! He was a little growly but I don't think a prong collar was necessary!

Then at one point in the class I got so upset I just told my husband to please take Lexi and the instructor then said to the whole class "Sometimes your spouse can handle your dog better than you can because you aren't the one working with them"!!!! Was I ever pissed! Uh, excuse me, but I AM the one with her all day, I AM the one working with her ALL THE TIME and the reason she's not cooperating is that she hates YOUR class! Argggh! It was humiliating to be called out in front of all these strangers and made to feel so stupid.

Once we left Lexi was like a different dog, she practically skipped out of there and to the car, was very happy to get out of there. When we got home I did a few tricks with her and she performed beautifully. So we will be doing our training at home while continuing to look for opportunities to socialize her with other dogs and people. And I'm going to check into the classes her breeder offers in the Spring. I'm also going to see if anyone in a 50 mile radius offers any kind of puppy socialization class, I know she's a BIG puppy, but she's still a baby and would benefit from a class like this.

Thanks SO MUCH for all the good advice you've all given me, I feel good that I have gone with my gut feeling about what is best for my dog, anything that makes her so unhappy is not good, I want her trained of course but I want her happy too!

Beth


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Good thing you quit THAT class. That trainer needs to get out of training. Please consider finding another class but first sit in on a couple sessions without Lexi to see how the dogs are in the class, what the atmosphere is like, and what the trainers' methods are. That's the best way to evaluate a class, a time when you can concentrate on the class itself without paying attention to your dog.

Best wishes, you did the right thing!


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Wow. I have been having trouble in obedience class but nothing like yours!! Noone has ever held the leash but me!! I'm sure your pup was afraid when a big stranger started jerking her around.

Good Job for standing up for your pup and yourself!!


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

It is just a horrible traumatic experience for the pup. What is wrong with that trainer?. I'm glad you quit thar class, please convey your complaints to their supervisor or whomever the responsible person is so that that trainer can't destroy other puppies.


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

Good for you! You have to stand up for your dog in situations like this!

Where are you at in Michigan? I might be able to offer some ideas


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Good for you! 

The first trainer I had wanted to take my dog and correct him. I told him that I'm the only one that's going to hold the leash and nobody else gets to correct him or train him. Well, I lost $1,000 when the guy turned into an ass and I walked out. (The contract stated no refunds, but I made sure to at least post my horrible experience on Angies list. Hey, they guy didn't even know that sits are automatic during heeling.) 

Now I'm a member of a great training club that my dogs love.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Good for you!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Good for your for standing up for your dog. I have taught some basic OB classes. If I saw the handler and the dog both struggling I would ask the owner if I could handle their dog. Once they could watch me having their dog do an excercise they helped them out a lot. I never handled a dog without the owners permission and only did if both the dog and the handler were struggling. 

I don't believe in yank and crank, that just teaches the dog not to trust people and makes it difficult for Vets, Vet Techs and Groomers. The dogs in my classes all trusted me, when they came into class each dog came up to me to say hello. They were happy and excited like what fun stuff are we going to do tonight.

There are good OB instructors and there are bad OB instructors. I had a couple people who came to the Intro session that wouldn't come to my classes because I wouldn't allow Choke Collars. They were arguing with me that they wern't harmful. I told that those were the rules of my classes and the were free to not attend.

Keep looking for a different trainer and different place.

Val


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## JakesDogs (Jun 4, 2008)

A hug for Lexi and you - 

Having a great young dog with potential and having the means, time, and dedication to work on that potential should be a positive if not downright fun experience where you come home full of brags as proud parents or humbled parents at how much you both learn. Clearly, this was not the case and getting out was the best choice. Dogs are typically empathic with their humans and soaking up your distress in addition to their own is a bad thing.

From a less objective standpoint, I admire your self-control. No matter whose dog, seeing anyone jerk a leash hard for any reason less than to protect the dog/human, let alone under the guise of training/correction, can take me from Zen to boiling in no time flat. Then adding insult to injury would have really iced the cake.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

good for you!!


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

Bravo for you. Good Luck finding a better trainer, they are out there. Maybe you can find one on a local chat board, but the earlier suggestion about previewing a class is an excellent one. OB trainers are not different than other teachers, some are good, some are not.


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

I'm sorry for your bad experience, but there really are good trainers out there. My sister quit a training class years ago for the same reason. This lady was brutal with my sister's dog who was a shy, submissive girl. She insisted on using a chain choke collar on her and at one point hung her up in the air when she wouldn't sit! We walked out at that point. Found another trainer who put a nylon collar on Kelsey and trained with positive reinforcement. It made all the difference in the world -- she graduated with honors from that class.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Sounds like the best decision you could have for Lexi and for yourself. That trainer sounds she needs to be "reeducated."

Great job looking after your team's best interest.


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## bethandglen (Jan 5, 2009)

I am in Owosso, halfway between Flint and Lansing. I'd be willing to drive to either of those places if had to (as long as the weather doesn't get worse!) 

Beth


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## WinitheGSD (Sep 21, 2008)

good for you! You defintily did the right thing. I'm sure lexi is a lot happier, I like that name, lexi. it's pretty. I hope you find a better trainer, and always remember to ask questions.


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

What about this place? It's west of you, in St. Johns.

http://www.chercarkennels.net/dogtraining.html

I had a friend a few years ago that trained with them and liked it a lot.

Nevermind lol, I see that is where you got your pup from


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm sorry to hear that the trainer was so awful, but glad to hear that you chose to leave. Unfortunately, with the force-style training that you described in this class, the instructors kind of expect a considerable drop-out rate and it doesn't really matter to them since they keep the money anyhow.

This trainer is stuck in the "old school" methods - in this day and age, with all the information available on positive reinforcement training methods, it just amazes me that there are still people who want to train using compulsion as a primary part of their method.

It looks like you'll stick with the more positive training methods and I'm sure that you'll find some way to continue with distractions and socialization. Good luck!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: And I'm going to check into the classes her breeder offers in the Spring. I'm also going to see if anyone in a 50 mile radius offers any kind of puppy socialization class, I know she's a BIG puppy, but she's still a baby and would benefit from a class like this.


Glad to hear that though you found that wasn't the class for you, you are smart enough to continue to look for classes that would be a better fit. There can be a HUGE difference, and it may mean you have to widen your area a bit. I know I drive over an hour to my classes, but they are worth it. And I just add socialization and hikes and shopping to the day to make it not just ALL about class, but a real part of the day for my dogs and I.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm glad to hear you were able to leave that class - and not a minute too soon, it sounds to me!

Remember, just because a person is a trainer doesn't mean you have to allow them to do things to your dog that you are uncomfortable with, and it certainly doesn't mean they can be rude or abusive to you in front of the whole class. You're paying them to teach you how to train, NOT to abuse you or frighten your dog. If you're uncomfortable with something, stand up and say so, the first time it happens. You don't have to put yourself or your dog through something that is clearly not working for either of you.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

hate to say it, you'd of been better off with the BS training at Petsmart


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

I saw that kind of behaviour at a private obedience class here (we went to watch the class thinking we would go that route instead of Petsmart's), I was shocked by the trainer's behaviour with some of the dogs in the class, one dogs neck by the time it left the class was very very red and swollen because she kept taking the dog away from his owner to correct it on a very very thin choke chain, by half way through the class the trainer put a scarf on the dog to try to prevent any damage.... if it was my dog I would have #$#$# her. Needless to say we didn't sign up for that, and went the Petsmart route and was very happy with the training classes but really only did it for 2 reasons, 1 socialization and 2 distractions.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Good thread - some first time dog owners might be shy to trash a trainer...

Unfortunately there are people who call themselves "trainers" when they are just bullies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, I am sorry that you had such an awful experience. 

I personally prefer a trainer who is open minded about training tools, is generally postive/rewards based, but is not afraid to have us correct a dog. However, the correction comes from me, not the trainer, and it is really so seldom required. 

This is because obedience and rally classes are FUN. They are supposed to be FUN for the dog AND for you. 

My little sister gave a sad, tortured face when she considered obedience training puppies. She had an idea I think that training them was similar to breaking horses, and the pup would be forced to work and be obedient. Then I had her take a pup through puppy classes with me. 

We had a great time. I think that she has the idea now that training dogs actually improves their life as they understand what they should do and how to do it, they bond with their owner, and they love the attention. The puppies get a real boost from all the treats and praise and it builds their confidence. 

I would hope that anyone who feels that obedience classes are a drag, or that feels their dog is or they are being bullied would get out fast. My previous trainer would say the most awful things to each person about their dog -- Oh, she will be a fear biter. I have never seen a dog that is so hyper. Don't bring him back until he is neutered. That is not the way a Lab should be. Blah, Blah, Blah. By the fourth week of class, the class was gone. 

Because this woman's class was so depressing, I started doing things on the side to ensure that Jenna was having fun. The woman thought I was nuts. But I placed at the show we were both at last, and she did not with her dog. At least this woman was all about positive training, treats and praise, and did not advocate the old-school techniques. So I was able to abide her so long as I turned a deaf ear. 

It shouldn't be like that. There are a lot of good trainers out there. The trick is finding them. Here are some suggestions:

1. Go to a show or two where they have Rally and Obedience, possibly agility. Look for the people that seem to dance with their dogs. Then ask them where they train and who their trainer is. 

2. When you are at the vets or the pet store, and you see someone with a nice well-behaved dog, ask them. 

3. Call the local animal shelter, and explain that you are looking for a recommendation for a trainer who is very positive and possibly shows dogs in obedience. 

4. Check out the phone book/newspaper, then call and interview the trainer. 

5. Find your closest kennel club, breed club, obedience club and contact them for ideas on trainers. 

I show my dogs in obedience and Rally and have done some agility, however, I understand that is not everyone's thing. I would still encourage you to find a trainer who shows, and is active at shows as a steward, or as a judge in Rally and obedience. 

My reason is this: ANYONE can SAY they are a dog trainer. A few titles on a few dogs does not make you an expert trainer. A trainer has to do more than get their dog to sit and down. A trainer has to stand back and listen to the connection between you and your dog, and understand it, and then offer you a recipe to get the results you are looking for. 

A trainer has to understand dog issues, behavior issues, dog v society issues, when behavior can be dangerous issues, and be able to offer you assistance and encouragement, while you train your dog.

A trainer that is negative in voice or deed is not going to cultivate a dog and owner that are responsive to each other's signals. 

Good luck in finding a good one. They are out there.


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> I personally prefer a trainer who is open minded about training tools, is generally postive/rewards based, but is not afraid to have us correct a dog. However, the correction comes from me, not the trainer, and it is really so seldom required.


ME TOO!! That was really well said


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 1. Go to a show or two where they have Rally and Obedience, possibly agility. Look for the people that seem to dance with their dogs. Then ask them where they train and who their trainer is.










All of Sue's suggestions are great but this is exactly how I hooked up with the club I train with. And that was before I seriously thought about entering a ring with Kayla.


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## emmyp (Feb 27, 2007)

Good for you!!!

Selzer:

Thank you for the tips! I will definitely keep those in mind as well!


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

I want to thank you for posting this, and also thank everyone else for their responses. It made the lightbulb go off in my head that of *course* I can just not go back to this class I don't like! "No refunds?" No matter. I will not put myself and especially Charlie in a position in which I am worried about him... and my temper. 

This past week, our 4th session, the teacher actually advocated smacking our dogs, and flicking their ears, as corrections. I'm very much against this, horrified, and would rather just not go back to class and work with Charlie in a high-distraction area, instead. He knows all the commands that we're learning in class - the real value for him is learning focus, which I will be the first to admit is tough for him in a class environment. (Though - this past week I saw amazing improvement! I'm really looking forward to working with him in more challenging areas!) 

There were other issues that I had with the class since day 1 (sadly) that I was willing to ignore and chalk it up to, you know, it's hard to find a trainer with whom you are in 100% agreement, but being told to smack our dogs crossed waaaaaay over the line, in my opinion. Especially considering that this place bills themselves as a "positive" training center.









Today, I've emailed two other places in my area and have expanded my search for a trainer outside of my immediate town. I might have to drive an hour to get to the class that works well for us, but that's ok! It will be worth it... besides, the scenery out here is pretty and Charlie likes car rides.

I am planning on writing the training center with my feedback, too.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I recently got this book by Sheila Booth, PURELY POSITIVE TRAINING: COMPANION TO COMPETITION. I've been reading sections of it and really like it. Somebody here may even have recommended it. 

http://www.dogwise.com/Item_Inside.cfm?ID=DTB588&curImage=1


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Good for you. As I have said so many times on this board, most trainers, say 90 percent are worthless. However, we are working with one guy that for the most part uses a very light lease and small, sharp pronged collar. The differance is he has the ability to understand the dog. Some, the mean ones that come mostly from high kill shelters, he needs to be a bit tough with. Most of the dogs he takes, a great deal of affection, and with the prong only let the dog tighten the lease/prong. It works.

As for Lexi, based on what you said I would have pulled the dog as you did and stopped payment for the class.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: rainydaygoods
> This past week, our 4th session, the teacher actually advocated smacking our dogs, and flicking their ears, as corrections. I'm very much against this, horrified, and would rather just not go back to class and work with Charlie in a high-distraction area, instead. He knows all the commands that we're learning in class - the real value for him is learning focus, which I will be the first to admit is tough for him in a class environment. (Though - this past week I saw amazing improvement! I'm really looking forward to working with him in more challenging areas!)
> 
> There were other issues that I had with the class since day 1 (sadly) that I was willing to ignore and chalk it up to, you know, it's hard to find a trainer with whom you are in 100% agreement, but being told to smack our dogs crossed waaaaaay over the line, in my opinion. Especially considering that this place bills themselves as a "positive" training center.
> ...


I have a hard time believing there are still trainers that train like this!! 

Good for you for leaving and giving your feedback!

A few years ago I took Kayos to a seminar put on by a nationally known trainer and competitor. She had obedience trail champions out the wazoo. She took Kayos' leash and I trusted her as her credentials were impeccable. After she jerked Kayos hard enough to elicit shrieks from her I ran over grabbed the leash back and in front of 40 people told her if she EVER touched my dog again I would break her GD arms! I did not return for day 2 of the seminar.

Good for both of you for standing up for your dogs. They will thank you in thier own doggy way.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really have a hard time with saying 90% of trainers are worthless. 

Even out here in ****'s Half Acre, I have really only come across two that were useless. And I have had a few:

Trainer #1 was excellent, in eight weeks she had a class of raw rookie dog owners go from pulling yanking dogs to dogs able to sit, stand, come, stay, heel on lead and heel off-lead perfectly, both inside and outside. To this day, Arwen's obedience is the best of all my dogs from that beginning. She had us use cotten leads and a properly sized nylon slip lead. She bred, raised and competed with briards. If someone did not kill her with their car, I would still beusing her. 

Trainer #2 was also good. She bred, trained, and competed with borzois. She was the only person I took Dubya to for obedience training for one set of classes. His obedience skill stuck with him. I am not sure about collars and leads, but it was positive. She never advocated hitting, pinching, flicking, or alpha rolling the dog. 

Trainer #3 was a one day affair. I explained a dog aggression issue with a dog, she helped me fit him with a prong and then encouraged me to correct him when he lunged and barked at the other dogs. The boy was a year old. By the end of the class, he was doing much better. She encouraged me to continue taking him out etc. The dog would have done fine if I would have followed her advice. 

Trainer #4 was a woman who bred, trained, and competed with goldens. I worked Arwen at her place. She was awesome. She had me bring Arwen in on her own so she could properly place her. Years had gone by with no training, but Arwen was placed in classes where all the dogs had CGCs and some of them CDs and we were working on CDX stuff with her. No pinching, we did not use prongs. We did send aways over jumps, and tons of off-leash work. 

Trainer #5 was the fruitcake I took the dog aggressive dog to, and who I started Jenna with, and one of the only ones I felt totally useless. She claimed to be all positive. She told me to dump the prong and use a halti collar. The dog HATED the halti. She told me to keep him completely away from any other dog. That was a huge mistake. She was afraid of my ten week old puppy -- why did I not RUN??? She said the most awful things. Her classes all dropped out, and I had to figure out ways to make the time fun for my puppy. She told me that her Great Dane pup of the same age did not have the work ethic of my dog (as my dog did a down nicely) as she body slammed hers to the ground. That was quite enough. 

Trainer #6 is also awesome and who I have taken most of my dogs to. She currently breeds, trains, and competes with Leonbergers, though she also owns and competes with a GSD. She is mostly positive, but not afraid of trying different collars on different dogs and making corrections when necessary. We do not pinch or flick our dogs. 

Trainer #7 was the PetsMart disaster. This was the only guy I worked with. He wasn't so bad, just very inexperienced. It was a waste of my money. Nothing more. He did not suggest that I hit my dog or anything. Most of the trainers I had worked with had seen more decades working with dogs than I had been alive. This guy had been working with dogs for about six years, I think most of that was with his hound. 

Please do not give up training in a class setting. Find someone good to work with. You can only go so far on your own. Having someone else standing back watching you with your dog, they can see things that you cannot possibly see about how you are relating with your dog.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I disagree because some many of the so called trainers have no credentials or simply work for the larger stores that are pet based.

Lord knows, because I work with shepherds and labs I could simply advertise myself as a trainer. My son's lab, who was just invited to compete in the Dock Diving World Championships in 2009 was almosr ruined by a trainer. So you don't think this is BS, just look up "Jumpin George" in the internet. 

The most expensive and highest end behavorist I hired to evaluate my GSD, Timber, suggested I let him act on his normal animal instincts, such as chasing other animals. Guess what, the dog didn't know the difference between a jogger and a deer. So we are in rehab with a guy that trains police dogs, among other breeds. As for trainers, I am 1 for 3, but knowing a bit and working with the so called high end ones I suspect my comment that 90 percent are worthless is pretty darn close.


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

> Quote:
> Please do not give up training in a class setting. Find someone good to work with. You can only go so far on your own. Having someone else standing back watching you with your dog, they can see things that you cannot possibly see about how you are relating with your dog.


I wanted to reply to this because I know that I wrote that I would rather work with Charlie in a high-distraction area than continue with class - I meant I didn't want to continue with *this* class, in which the trainer wants us to smack our dogs, flick their ears to get their attention if they are misbehaving, told me that I should put a choke chain on Charlie (even though he heels nicely on our walks, though admittedly not so much in class but he did improve) because "Charlie is a German shepherd so other people might be scared of him when you are walking him, and a choke chain will make them less scared." Sorry but if my dog walks nicely, is friendly, doesn't lunge, etc... I'm not going to change my collar for what other people might think about German shepherds. Not to mention - people in my neighborhood love Charlie because he is friendly, well behaved, and really cute with the kids around here. Sigh. I still have some ranting to do about this class, clearly.









The great news is that I went double-time on my searching for trainers in the area, expanding how far I'd be willing to go (by a lot), and got quite a few responses back. I have now found two trainers - one private and close to me, one a group facility (that does agility, too - which is great because I want to do agility with Charlie!) farther away - but still under an hour's drive. I'm excited to meet these new trainers and keep working with Charlie! In the meantime, we've been working on his obedience much more out in the world, and I also see it making a difference. I know this will help us when the next classes begin.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rainydaygoods
> The great news is that I went double-time on my searching for trainers in the area, expanding how far I'd be willing to go (by a lot), and got quite a few responses back. I have now found two trainers - one private and close to me, one a group facility (that does agility, too - which is great because I want to do agility with Charlie!) farther away - but still under an hour's drive. I'm excited to meet these new trainers and keep working with Charlie! In the meantime, we've been working on his obedience much more out in the world, and I also see it making a difference. I know this will help us when the next classes begin.


That is great news!







Both that you are willing to do a little extra to find the right situation for you and Charlie and that your search has come up with a couple of options-including possibly a connection to agility.

Hopefully one (or both) of these options will work out and you two will have that organized training working for you.

Good Luck!


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks! Yeah - I'm really excited! Forgot to mention, too, that the private instructor has owned and titled German shepherds for 30 years.







Yay! The owner of the school has also owned and titled German shepherds. No "German shepherds are aggressive by nature" comments - they know and love the breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Timber, I know that you have had a bad experience. Others have had bad experiences. I have too. But not nine out of ten. You are one for three, which is unfortunate, but says that you haven't a whole lot of experience with trainers. And even you have not experienced nine bad trainers for every good one. 

I suppose there are ways to improve your odds, particularly where and how you look for a trainer. 

Can everyone teach their dog to sit, stay, down, and heel nicely without going to classes, probably. Can they completely socialize their dogs without classes, probably. Can we teach ourselves a foreign language or how to read without classes, sure. Can we go even further, open new avenues of things to do with our dogs, meet dog friendly people, and improve our relationship with our dogs by seeing through someone else's eyes? I think for sure. 

I think that training the dog is more important than going to a good breeder and researching the lines. I think it is just as important as good veterinary advice, and good nutrician. All too often dogs land in rescues or are euthanized in shelters simply because the owners did not follow through with training the dog. For some people, who are natural alphas, training the dog comes natural and without consciously making an effort, their dog becomes a civilized canine. For the rest of us, lack of training can be a death sentence. Classes keep us honest. That is, we go every week and the dog gets at least that much training and socialization every week, generally more because we want to make the money we forked out for it worthwhile. 

I worry that your disparaging remarks about trainers and training classes may influence people to go it alone, to give up finding a good trainer, and to miss out on some of the great opportunities there are out there for them and their dogs. Here in the US there are not many opportunities for making your dog civilized. Training classes are one of those opportunities that we should make the most out of. 

Also, even with the best of trainers, I choose to follow their advice or instructions or not. If I have a puppy in an advanced class, then I go slower, do my own thing some of the time. If I do not want to use a prong or another training device, I simply do not. If I think my pup had stayed long enough, I will go back, even if the instructor is not ready. I know my dog as I live with it. Furthermore, I will have to live with it for the rest of its life. Therefore, its training is ultimately my responsibility. The trainer is a guide or a companion along the way.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Selzer, is Miss S driving your brother nuts yet?

I agree with what you say. I have recently accepted a foster from Fidelco who is 4 months old.
She has been in 2 different homes since she was 8 weeks old.
The rest of the class is working on sit/stays and down/stays from a distance.
I'm pretty happy with her if she gives me her attention on leash.
She will be a great dog.
She will blow her siblings out of the water.
I just have to find her connect button.
Her intentions are good, we just need to click.
Thank God Fiedelco believes in individuality. The trainers don't care if we do a recall at 10 feet, when everyone else in the class is doing 60 feet.
They mark the positive. They give me the freedom to connect to the dog.
I never feel like my foster or I are doing the wrong thing. I get guidence and suggestions to build a partnership.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, she is. He took her through puppy classes, and a six week basic obedience class. He hasn't signed up for another yet. Hopefully, we will be heading out to matches soon. 

She is funny. She listens to him good, but the other adult in the house has issues with her. My brother assures me that it is getting better. 

He wants to train her to track. It sounds like she is doing good with the other four footed residents, though I am not sure whether he introduced her to wabbit yet. I am afraid she will see it as hossenfeffer.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I always appreciate your responses and the thought that goes into them. You mentioned the following.

"I worry that your disparaging remarks about trainers and training classes may influence people to go it alone, to give up finding a good trainer, and to miss out on some of the great opportunities there are out there for them and their dogs. Here in the US there are not many opportunities for making your dog civilized. Training classes are one of those opportunities that we should make the most out of."

Because some of the dogs our family has are involved in competitive events, my expereince with trainers goes a bit beyond my 1 for 3 comment. However, the trainer that has been the most helpful I will continue to use with my rescues, and my "forever dog", Timber. 

You touched on it a bit, but if someone wants a companion dog, I always though they should be able to train the dog in the basics. I am beginning to realize that so many people buy a dog, and have little idea what to do. So I don't mean to be overly rough on trainers. However, I will add, it is not always easy to find a good trainer, and in some cases they do more damage then good.

The highly paid behavior specialist that told me it was fine to let Timber chase other animals because of his nature is just one example. Lord knows, the dog did not recognize the differance between a jogger and a deer.

So as I said, we are now in rehab with a good trainer, and are doing fine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Timber, it takes a lot of perseverance to continue doing something after being burned. It sounds like you are doing a great job with Timber. 

If people are not encumbered by a foolish trainer, and puts their pup in classes before there are serious behavioral issues, and then takes an active role in the training, making decisions what they will or will not do, I think most problem behavior in dogs can be avoided. 

I agree that a lot of new puppy owners do not know what they need to be doing with their dog. I think it is more than just the basic commands, more the attitude of dog ownership that stumps people. 

I think that for companion dogs especially need a good trainer. This trainer may be this dog's owner's only window into the dog-world. I think that we cultivate more than a few tricks (sit, down, stay) at obedience classes, we are developing an appropriate bond between owner and pet.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I personally will continue to train my dogs myself. They have tons of opportunities to socialize being at so many events and we have a wonderful training facility about ten miles from me, which you can rent very reasonably. If a problem surfaces, I have a good trainer I can use, like I am doing with Timber. 

In general; however, I agree with your comments. The two best rescues I have fostered this year were because of lack of training. The first dog, named Otto, was adopted by an older couple. Although they attended OB class, they never even learned to walk the dog. As Otto hit nine months of age he would pull them all over the place. So I got Otto and he was adopted by a guy that knew a bit about basic training. The folks that returned Otto to us loved the dog, they bought Otto so much stuff it would last for ten dogs. In hindsight, I am convinced that I could have taught Otto to walk correctly on lease in an hour or so.

The second is a dog I am now fostering, named Hogan. Hogan is a beautiful 16 month old GSD. Hogan was adopted into a nice family, but returned because one of their kids developed severe allegies. However, Hogan is literally untrained. I call him my "wild child."

The bottom line is I have concerns about trainers; however, as a rescue person I will try and make sure everyone that adopts one of our dogs enrolls in an OB class. I will also recommend a few specific trainers I have confidence in.


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