# What's your opinion about cropping ? (non-GSDs)



## Starry Messenger (Nov 1, 2013)

How do you feel about ear cropping in the cropped breeds (Doberman, great dane, etc)? I know the opinions on this subject vary a lot, especially depending on whether or not you have a cropped dog. Cropping is still practiced in the US, but it's illegal in many countries now.

The reason why I'm asking is because a giant schnauzer pup is joining my family this winter, and I've been agonizing over the for a while. I've been advised that if it doesn't settle well with you, don't do it. Cropped ears look great on a GSCH, but the journey to having great cropped ears is not without discomfort/suffering to a pup. Cropping is not essential to the "look" of a GSCH. 

But it looks so nice! *sigh* Right now I think we are leaning toward not doing it...

For those of you who do not have cropped dogs, do you find it cruel? For those of you who have had it done, do you feel like your pup suffered? Does an un-cropped Doberman feel like a Doberman to you?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

My best friend bred Dobermans for a few years. She worked so hard to title and test her dogs for everything and still ended up with serious genetic issues so she ended her breeding program.

i saw her litters after cropping. Puppies separated from each other so they don't chew each others taped ears. Those puppies were in alot of pain. For the first week or so they would yelp overtime they bumped their ears. She was torn about ears as at that time Dobermans.did not do well at shows if ears were not done.

Alot of work to keep ears taped properly, there is a skill involved.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Personally I'm torn, yes I like the look of a good crop for Dobermans. But am I willing to put a dog through the process and it is a ton of work for the human as well to ensure the healing process isn't hindered and everything is done properly. These two things hold me back and make me question whether it's worth it

The fact that even if you do everything right it can fail is something to consider as well, not to mention a bad crop is a heck of a lot worse looking then natural ears. :crazy:

My brother in law and sister have a rescue Dobie, his tail is cropped but ears natural. My parents also fostered a Dobie mix this summer, natural ears and tail. I don't think either of them are hindered in their looks 

Here's Odin, my sister and brother in law's purebred fawn Dobie:






Gabby - Dobie mix (foster who found her forever home). You can't see her tail, she was very skittish and had her tail tucked most of the time while outside 






I look at both dogs and don't think "gee, they would look SO much cuter if the ears were cropped" I just look at them and see the dog that's before me. Bottom line for me, if the crop was already done then great, if not then chances are I wouldn't do it (I wouldn't go as far as saying never) and I'd still think they're great.


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## redandgold (Jul 2, 2013)

I will not be cropping the ears of any dog of mine, ever.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

If your showing your Doberman you would find it difficult to finish Ch if ears are not done. Not sure if this applies to other breeds.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I had a roommate who had his Doberman done (early 90's) and it was not an easy procedure and the dog seemed to be in considerable discomfort quite a while, not to mention the stress of making sure the wrap and everything was right all the time. It all seemed so unhygienic to me on top of that. 

Since they don't crop in Europe (right?) you can just say he's a true German version. People always love to tell me how their GSDs are "real" German so you can use that!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I love Dobermans and I will have one some day and it will be cropped and docked.

To me, a floppy eared, long tail whip Doberman is unattractive.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> I love Dobermans and I will have one some day and it will be cropped and docked.
> 
> To me, a floppy eared, long tail whip Doberman is unattractive.


So it is just all about cosmetics?? What about the procedure itself....
It is banned here ......thank goodness.....completely unnecessary.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

sparra said:


> So it is just all about cosmetics?? What about the procedure itself....
> It is banned here ......thank goodness.....completely unnecessary.


No, it's not just about cosmetics, but I am not going to own a dog that I don't find attractive just like I wouldn't own a beautiful dog with a bad personality.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The dog DOES look like that though. That's what they are. People make them look other than themselves. It's like Toddlers and Tiaras. Those kids don't look like that. They add hair pieces and flippers, and spray tans and makeup.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

sparra said:


> So it is just all about cosmetics?? What about the procedure itself....
> It is banned here ......thank goodness.....completely unnecessary.


Yes it is about cosmetics. It is all about how the dog is perceived. Natural ears soften the dogs appearance which some like...seems many do not here in Canada as it is still legal.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> The dog DOES look like that though. That's what they are. People make them look other than themselves. It's like Toddlers and Tiaras. Those kids don't look like that. They add hair pieces and flippers, and spray tans and makeup.


I understand that they are born that way but obviously I am not the only one that prefers them docked and cropped because every Doberman I have ever seen in person is docked and cropped. I find that attractive, I do not find them attractive with floppy ears and a long tail.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't have as much an issue with docking tails as it usually takes place very young and no general anesthetic is used. To have such a young puppy put under for major cosmetic surgery is scary to me.


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## Starry Messenger (Nov 1, 2013)

Shade said:


> But am I willing to put a dog through the process and it is a ton of work for the human as well to ensure the healing process isn't hindered and everything is done properly. These two things hold me back and make me question whether it's worth it
> 
> The fact that even if you do everything right it can fail is something to consider as well, not to mention a bad crop is a heck of a lot worse looking then natural ears. :crazy:


I agree! Gabby's super cute, btw.



sparra said:


> So it is just all about cosmetics?? What about the procedure itself....
> It is banned here ......thank goodness.....completely unnecessary.


Some people argue that it decreases the chance the dog can have an ear infection and that it decreases the chance they will "damage" their ears. I'm not convinced with either of those. A shorter crop-- like they used in the old days-- is probably better for preventing damage, but most people aren't into that look for the Doberman. In all honesty, I think it's purely cosmetic. I wouldn't try to present it as anything more than that. 



LaRen616 said:


> Obviously I am not the only one that prefers them docked and cropped because every Doberman I have ever seen in person is docked and cropped.


Yep. I think they look better docked and cropped. Since I don't have one, I just enjoy looking at them, though. 

Anyway, this is for a giant schnauzer, for which the cropped look is not as "critical". Natural ears definitely make them look softer. They still have a distinguished look because of the beard, but somehow cropped ears balance the beard out. 

I've attached two example photos. I've heard that to get a pleasing natural look, schnauzer ears are often taped down anyway (but no surgery is involved).


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Starry Messenger said:


> Anyway, this is for a giant schnauzer, for which the cropped look is not as "critical". Natural ears definitely make them look softer. They still have a distinguished look because of the beard, but somehow cropped ears balance the beard out.
> 
> I've attached two example photos. I've heard that to get a pleasing natural look, schnauzer ears are often taped down anyway (but no surgery is involved).
> 
> ...


I think he is adorable either way! Too cute! :wub:

But the one with natural ears is slightly cuter.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

We had 2 dobermans many years ago, the breeder had docked their tails but we didn't crop their ears, I thought they looked very handsome the way they were! I did see a pup at the vet they had cropped the ears, he had like the ears taped and like a rack to hold the ears in place, don't know how to explain it! I wondered what that would be like keeping that all in place for however long it would have to be on!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

For some reason I don't have an issue with the tails being docked. Think cause they are so small when it's done and they heal up so fast.

Ears are a different issue entirely. The pup is older, it's a HUGE amount of NORMAL healthy ear that is cut off, and the after care is a pain (plus the ears still sometimes don't work out right).





 
Look how cute this little puppy was.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I like my dogs natural. I will not do surgery unless there is a medical need for it, so that means I wouldn't do any cropping personally.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm okay with it. I believe that in the case of Dobermans, the whole reason for their creation, they were supposed to be serious dogs. Now they're just silly and sweet but I think the natural look for some dogs leads people to believe they're softer. Erect eared dogs tend to look more serious while natural floppy eared dogs look softer, friendlier, more inviting. Rotties look strange with tails and Dobermans look strange with tails and natural ears. I just wouldn't want people getting the wrong impression because of how the dog looks. 

A friend growing up had three Dobermans. Two were cropped and docked while one was natural and docked. The dobie with the natural ears was actually the more aggressive dog and didn't appreciate strangers coming around or up to his people on walks but he was the one people would approach because his ears made his appear friendlier while the cropped dogs were hardly ever approached and they adored people and attention. She had a couple people tell them the reasoning was because they just looked more menacing. 

I hope that makes sense. A serious dog with natural ears, IMO, can be misleading. I like the erect ears on the GSD. You take them a bit more seriously when those ears are clearly aimed in your direction while a natural eared dog.... you're not as watchful because the ears can be difficult to read at times.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I had a rescued dobie with natural ears many years ago. She came to me at 12 weeks, and I never even entertained a thought of letting someone carve off pieces of her ears to change them from how nature made them, though by then she was probably too old anyway.

I _loved _the natural ears on that dog. I didn't give a fig what other people thought about how she looked. For me, she was perfect just the way she was. I still miss that dog--and she died 11 years ago.

As for docked tails, I love the joy of a wiggly dog-butt swinging with its happy, wagging tail. I understand why it's _convenient_ to not have a dog swinging a furry bat in the living room that can knock everything off a coffee table. That convenience comes at the price of a piece of anatomy that is a major way dogs communicate to each other, though--one we're just starting to understand: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/a-dogs-tail-wag-can-say-a-lot.html


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

For Dobermans they say that the ears should be cropped between 8-12 weeks old. 

The majority of reputable Doberman breeders crop the ears before the puppies go to their new homes.


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

Personally, I would not put the dog through it if it's just for cosmetic purposes. The upkeep of the taping can be very tricky, too. My uncle has a Dobe who's ears were cropped (it was originally my cousin's dog that he got from a BYB and the poor dog has lots of health problems and was dumped with my uncle - that's another story) but her ears didn't take to the taping/they weren't managed properly and she has triangular ears that flop down. She's still cute, but I can't justify spending the money and putting the dog through the pain just for the procedure not to work out for it's intended purposes. I also don't like the idea of docking tails or declawing cats. Just my personal preference.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

KZoppa said:


> I'm okay with it. I believe that in the case of Dobermans, the whole reason for their creation, they were supposed to be serious dogs. Now they're just silly and sweet but I think the natural look for some dogs leads people to believe they're softer. Erect eared dogs tend to look more serious while natural floppy eared dogs look softer, friendlier, more inviting. Rotties look strange with tails and Dobermans look strange with tails and natural ears. I just wouldn't want people getting the wrong impression because of how the dog looks.
> 
> A friend growing up had three Dobermans. Two were cropped and docked while one was natural and docked. The dobie with the natural ears was actually the more aggressive dog and didn't appreciate strangers coming around or up to his people on walks but he was the one people would approach because his ears made his appear friendlier while the cropped dogs were hardly ever approached and they adored people and attention. She had a couple people tell them the reasoning was because they just looked more menacing.
> 
> I hope that makes sense. A serious dog with natural ears, IMO, can be misleading. I like the erect ears on the GSD. You take them a bit more seriously when those ears are clearly aimed in your direction while a natural eared dog.... you're not as watchful because the ears can be difficult to read at times.


I take my black dog out with my brown dog. My black dog is a therapy dog, my brown dog is in need of therapy. 

People want to pet the brown dog. It's misleading. I'm not going to buy a box of Clairol Nice N Easy, I am going to be a proactive pet owner.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Our clinic does ear trims and neonatal docks/dewclaw removals. I'm not sure where folks got their dog's ears done that resulted in 'extreme pain for weeks' following the surgery, but FIND A NEW VET. Yes, it is painful (as is any surgical procedure), no it is not necessary, yes there is blood, and yes there is always a chance that your dog's ears won't stand correctly anyway. They should not be in pain for weeks. The worst are long trims (danes, dobies) and the easiest are pits. Either these are some seriously sensitive dogs, the owners are hyper-sensitive themselves, or the surgery was done too late or incorrectly.
We only do ear trims on dogs under 25lbs and no older than 14 weeks. They go home with pain medication. The only complications we usually see are caused by owners who don't leave the soft cone on and let their pup scratch at their ears or that don't bring their pets in often enough during ear taping and allow the dressing to get wet (causing ear infections).

Ultimately, ear cropping is the choice of the owner. If I have a breed that can be cropped and the leather and base are strong and promising, I will crop the dog.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

The cropping of a dobe was based on function not cosmetics. Removal of the tail gave perpetrators less of a handle to stop an attack and also led to fewer vertebrae injuries. The ears were cropped for sound localization and also less of an object to grab hold of to thwart an attack. 
My dad has schnauzers. Natural ears, cropped tails. They look fine imo. Would look decent cropped but as only family pets, there really isn't a necessity to have them cropped. 

Oliver Kahn 8/3/13


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Docking is done on alot of hunting breeds and always done by 3 days old, as are dewclaws....I know breeders of sporting breeds who do their own dewclaws and tails....the nerve endings are not totally "finished" and other than slight discomfort at being restrained, I have not seen any evidence of real pain in 3 day olds done at the vet or at home with their dogs (have been present at quite a few both in vet clinics and home breeders).

I love the look of a erect ear, and just don't care much for floppy eared breeds - any breed....I think a Great Dane looks majestic with cropped ears - have seen Dobes both ways, recent European imports with long crops (from Serbia or Hungary maybe..)...I won't ever have a breed that has to be cropped - but I prefer the cropped look on a Dobe or Dane. 

I have mixed feelings about crops and cat declaws (since it was brought up).....I have had quite a few declawed cats....when they are super destructive, and it is a choice between the furniture and the cat not having a home - I do not have an issue with it when done by a good vet....have seen crappy declaws a few times that had to be redone, but most cats are fine within 2 or 3 days and most vets keep them in the clinic and well bandaged and observed.


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## Starry Messenger (Nov 1, 2013)

LaRen616 said:


> The majority of reputable Doberman breeders crop the ears before the puppies go to their new homes.


Our breeder has their vet do the cropping. I thought it would be a good idea to not receive a cropped pet to let us think more about it. If we decide to crop, we will see a Dallas area vet. She's supposed to be the best in TX for ear crops. The people on the Doberman forum speak very highly of her. 

Someone mentioned that a Doberman with natural ears can look "soft" even if it doesn't have a soft personality, which could make people think it is a friendly dog. Could having natural ears make it easier to socialize a dog? If it looks less intimating as a pup, people react to it differently.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I have yet to meet a nasty Doberman.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think all these practices are cruel and abusive, just for the looks. I would never own a dog that was cropped or docked. Unless of course my own dog had an accident and needed it "done" for medical reasons. You never hear about the consequences after the procedures. One is that pups mistake the stumpy tails for nipples....leading to infections. Ever seen the tail of a down hill running dog spin? They need their tails, ears, voices and dew claws. MHO.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jaythethird said:


> The cropping of a dobe was based on function not cosmetics. Removal of the tail gave perpetrators less of a handle to stop an attack and also led to fewer vertebrae injuries.
> Oliver Kahn 8/3/13


Then why are GSD's tails not docked? Same excuse with ears; perps cannot get a handle on them. But how about Rotties' ears?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Rottweilers have floppy ears and no one says they are not serious looking. My Chama was a 70 lb. rottie mix with a tail and plenty of people crossed the street to avoid her. 

I'm sure not crazy about those beehive hairdos but they once were all the rage too. Now they just look silly.  As many posters have pointed out, these breeds are born with floppy ears and tails. If cropping was to become illegal in this country we would no longer see cropped dogs and we would perceive their natural look to be the correct (and attractive) look. 

It's interesting that a number of people who are for keeping dogs intact (because neutering is unnecessary and potentially harmful) are arguing that they like the "look" of a dog who has had unnecessary, painful and potentially harmful surgery for purely cosmetic reasons.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Starry Messenger said:


> Someone mentioned that a Doberman with natural ears can look "soft" even if it doesn't have a soft personality, which could make people think it is a friendly dog. Could having natural ears make it easier to socialize a dog? If it looks less intimating as a pup, people react to it differently.


Absolutely, with Odin not being the classic B&T and with natural ears most people don't realize he's a Doberman. He's adores being loved on and is very calm

I kid you not when I've seen the following scenario happen multiple times:

Person walks up, "nice looking dogs! May I pet them?" "Sure, go ahead" and the person proceeds to pet the dogs. "Such well behaved nice dogs, what type of dogs are they?" "Well, there's a poodle, a German Shepherd, a min pin, yorkie mix, and a Doberman." Person JUMPS back "a Doberman?!" and quickly walks away even though two seconds ago that mean ol' Doberman was standing quietly groaning while getting his head scratched.

More people that are confident enough to approach our pack will pet the GSD over the Doberman once they realize what breeds they are. Not because Delgado or Odin is more well behaved then the other, it's all breed bias


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Our next dog is hopefully years away, but my DH wants a Dobe.

We haven't decided yet whether we'll go breeder or rescue - I've only ever rescued, but w a dog that big and strong known lineage in terms of temperament is fairly important to me, unless we get a rescue adult.

Anyways, I would adopt a cropped dog, but wouldn't have it done on a puppy.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Then why are GSD's tails not docked? Same excuse with ears; perps cannot get a handle on them. But how about Rotties' ears?


I don't know why, I didn't start the process. As far as ears go, gsd ears are naturally erect would be my guess? The localization of sound for erect ears is within 5 degrees of the location. 

Also just guessing, maybe max thought it immoral to crop it or maybe his cutesy wootsey gsd told him not too? Or maybe because a tail helps with sharp turns and balance which was needed to keep with sheep in the rough terrain of old Germany? I honestly don't know. As soon as my time machine gets back in operation I will find out... 

There was a time when humans operated off of functionality. Dogs used to be just dogs lol. 


Oliver Kahn 8/3/13


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

I mean we are talking about generations that gassed jews, nuked japs, expected blacks to work for free, fought entire wars in trenches, injected or consumed amphetamines for energy to continue fighting..... 
Moral compass wasn't really pointing north compared to today's standards... 

Oliver Kahn 8/3/13


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Jaythethird said:


> The cropping of a dobe was based on function not cosmetics. Removal of the tail gave perpetrators less of a handle to stop an attack and also led to fewer vertebrae injuries. The ears were cropped for sound localization and also less of an object to grab hold of to thwart an attack.
> My dad has schnauzers. Natural ears, cropped tails. They look fine imo. Would look decent cropped but as only family pets, there really isn't a necessity to have them cropped.
> 
> Oliver Kahn 8/3/13


This is incorrect. Herr Dobermann docked and cropped to give a more intimidating look. He created the breed solely for protection and intimidation - he was a tax collector.







marbury said:


> Our clinic does ear trims and neonatal docks/dewclaw removals. I'm not sure where folks got their dog's ears done that resulted in 'extreme pain for weeks' following the surgery, but FIND A NEW VET. Yes, it is painful (as is any surgical procedure), no it is not necessary, yes there is blood, and yes there is always a chance that your dog's ears won't stand correctly anyway. They should not be in pain for weeks. The worst are long trims (danes, dobies) and the easiest are pits. Either these are some seriously sensitive dogs, the owners are hyper-sensitive themselves, or the surgery was done too late or incorrectly.
> We only do ear trims on dogs under 25lbs and no older than 14 weeks. They go home with pain medication. The only complications we usually see are caused by owners who don't leave the soft cone on and let their pup scratch at their ears or that don't bring their pets in often enough during ear taping and allow the dressing to get wet (causing ear infections).
> 
> Ultimately, ear cropping is the choice of the owner. If I have a breed that can be cropped and the leather and base are strong and promising, I will crop the dog.


Thank you. There's a dobermann pup at the club the same age as berlin. That dog never acted in pain at all. You get what you pay for, in breeding and surgery. You wouldnt say all dogs are unhealthy because BYB produce unhealthy dogs often.

I would never own a dobermann if it was cropped and docked. I dont want a dog that looks like an overpriced hound. Ive yet to see a dog get docked or cropped that seemed like it was truly suffering. This from the same society that screams to rip out internal organs because we're too lazy to control and contain our dogs...

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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> This is incorrect. Herr Dobermann docked and cropped to give a more intimidating look. He created the breed solely for protection and intimidation - he was a tax collector
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks, I was and still am aware of what the occupation of Louis Dobermann. 
You mention protection and rule out functionality?  without personally speaking to the creator? Lol. History is opinion. I am only speaking of such. 

Oliver Kahn 8/3/13


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

So I definitely thought giant schnauzers had naturally erect ears. Oops! I actually like floppy eared Great Danes better because they look more like the goof balls they are. I can't recall ever seeing a Dobe in person and the only Schnauzer I know has cropped ears, but from the pictures I like both. Natural tails look weirder to me than natural ears, and the docking process just isn't a big deal. I can see how docking might affect communication or maybe agility times, but I don't know of anyone who's had an issue with that.


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## Starry Messenger (Nov 1, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> If cropping was to become illegal in this country we would no longer see cropped dogs and we would perceive their natural look to be the correct (and attractive) look.


Exactly. It's all about what you're used to seeing.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I could not ever own a dog and drop it off at the vets to be cropped. Just couldn't do it. I adore Dobermans, probably never will own one but if I do I would have to purchase it docked and cropped. I much prefer the look (I hate to admit it is about the cosmetics) of that breed docked and cropped. I think they look like skinny coonhounds all natural. This being said I trial in scent detection and agility with a dobe who is docked but has natural ears and he is very handsome. I think most dobes are cropped and I am so used to that look that anything else looks funny (again, hate to admit but it is really about how they look). 
Boxers, danes, schnauzers more often than not have natural ears so it looks normal. But I do think that when they are cropped they look much more regal, alert and 'intimidating'. 
I do not have a problem with people cropping and docking. With the exception of hunting breeds having their tails docked I don't think there is any purpose to the practise today. But it is what the breed is supposed to look like. If someone seeks out that breed and has their ears cropped what's it to any one else? We pick german shepherds because they are a natural breed and require no maintenance as far as their look goes.
I think the hardest thing though is finding a vet that is capable of properly cropping ears. Over the years I have heard and seen soooo many horror stories with cropping I would be terrified to have a puppies ears cropped. And maintaining the ears while they healed. To put a dog through all of that to have ears that don't stand is a horribly unsettling thought to me. All the dog went through for it to fail. But when it is done properly by and experienced vet and a good owner who keeps the ears cleaned, the ears heal nicely and there is minimal pain to the pup. The pup grows up, never knows any different and is a gorgeous dog. To some people the end result outweighs the process.

Had to edit this in - I LOVE rottweilers with tails though! They are so thick and plush I just love 'em. And years ago I used to hate rotties with tails but with Germany banning the practise and more gorgeous rotties being sent over who have full tails I got used to the look and now adore it. So maybe I will get used to Dobermans looking like hounds some day too


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> This from the same society that screams to rip out internal organs because we're too lazy to control and contain our dogs...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It really is a stretch to compare reasons for desexing to cropping ears......

I can't think of another species that we chop bits off of just for our visual pleasure......apart from us humans of course 

All the time on this forum people harp on about the fact that if you don't like certain things about a GSD then don't get one.....get a lab, get a St Bernard if you like em big.....but with the Doberman if you don't like floppy ears....well just chop em off and Bob's your uncle......


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

my trainer has a GS with natural ears and tail. Love her! She was imported from Germany.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

sparra said:


> It really is a stretch to compare reasons for desexing to cropping ears......
> 
> I can't think of another species that we chop bits off of just for our visual pleasure......apart from us humans of course
> 
> All the time on this forum people harp on about the fact that if you don't like certain things about a GSD then don't get one.....get a lab, get a St Bernard if you like em big.....but with the Doberman if you don't like floppy ears....well just chop em off and Bob's your uncle......


People clip pet birds wings for the visual enjoyment of having them stay around long enough to gawk at  

But... IMO people care too much about what other people think, and people don't think about what other people care as much. 



I definitely don't care either way... If you want a three legged dog, cut their **** leg off It doesn't effect me lol. One of the best dogs I've ever known only had three legs... If you don't want them to have testicles chop em off. Want floppy ears? Keep em. I really don't think a dog is gonna care or remember after they are a year old if they used to have a tail or floppy ears. I have 1/2 " holes in my ears, I don't remember the pain from them unless I really think about it, but it did hurt like a bitch. So the dog probably does feel slight pain instantly. Maybe I should crop my ears? Would have been better during spocktober I guess  


Sent from my N860


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jaythethird said:


> People clip pet birds wings for the visual enjoyment of having them stay around long enough to gawk at
> Sent from my N860


That's not really any different to clipping a dog or a horses mane......hardly comparable to full on surgery to remove parts of an ear...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jaythethird said:


> I really don't think a dog is gonna care or remember after they are a year old if they used to have a tail or floppy ears. I have 1/2 " holes in my ears, I don't remember the pain from them unless I really think about it, but it did hurt like a bitch.


Your ears, your choice.  Dog doesn't have a choice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The only thing it takes is to ban docked and cropped dogs from the shows. That immediately cured that one in Europe because the demand is gone. Ironically the registrations of Dobermanns went down in some countries because people are not used to the authentic look.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Your ears, your choice.  Dog doesn't have a choice.


Circumcision. Cosmetic or functional? Kid's body, kid's choice? Nope. 'Owner's' choice. It may have once been a functional procedure, but now it's something we're 'used to seeing in the show ring'. One could even parallel wolfy's comment about folks not being used to the 'authentic look'. LOL!


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## Vagus (Oct 7, 2012)

I agree about the cropped ears looking more intimidating (dobes, boxers, pits etc.), and sometimes quite impressive. I've never seen cosmetically altered ears in person though, as it's illegal where I live too. At the same time however, I don't like the thought of subjecting one of my pets to potential pain for something that's entirely cosmetic. If it served SOME sort of function perhaps I'd be open to it. I do love the look of pointy eared breeds though 

I always thought that the reason for tail docking was due to the tails of some breeds being quite thin (boxers, weims, vizslas, dobes etc.) and easily injured/damaged, leading to even more pain as adults compared to if they were chopped as newborns?


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

sparra said:


> That's not really any different to clipping a dog or a horses mane......hardly comparable to full on surgery to remove parts of an ear...


Clipping a bird allows it Not to fly. It would be more comparable to removing a dogs voice box or removing a horses foot. Considering most birds fly, you are taking away it's instinctual talents







Whiteshepherds said:


> Your ears, your choice.  Dog doesn't have a choice.



My dog my choice??  I don't believe as a society that requires dogs to obey commands is really pro-choice for dogs lmao. They don't choose anything, they don't choose their owner, their living conditions, their food, their social settings... 






marbury said:


> Circumcision. Cosmetic or functional? Kid's body, kid's choice? Nope. 'Owner's' choice. It may have once been a functional procedure, but now it's something we're 'used to seeing in the show ring'. One could even parallel wolfy's comment about folks not being used to the 'authentic look'. LOL!


Circumcision... Functional and cosmetic 



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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I am against cropping and docking. I think it is cruel and unnecessary and I also like the way they look naturally (I have never seen a dog with cropped/docked features that wouldn't have looked better with a natural tail and ears). I believe the cropping and docking originated for "good" reasons, to improve the dog's ability to do whatever its job was. Now, it is mostly about appearance. I would never choose to have a dog cropped or docked, but I wouldn't turn a dog away because of it either. My toy poodle has a docked tail and I love him, but I think a long tail would look better and would have saved him pain.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jaythethird said:


> Clipping a bird allows it Not to fly. It would be more comparable to removing a dogs voice box or removing a horses foot. Considering most birds fly, you are taking away it's instinctual talents


They lose these feathers naturally, normally as one is falling out another one is growing in to take it's place. Clipping them only temporarily prevents them from flying so it's nothing like removing a voice box or cutting off part of an ear. 



Jaythethird said:


> My dog my choice??  I don't believe as a society that requires dogs to obey commands is really pro-choice for dogs lmao. They don't choose anything, they don't choose their owner, their living conditions, their food, their social settings...


You're right, but I still think loping off tails and cropping ears is a ridiculous.


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Whiteshepherds said:


> They lose these feathers naturally, normally as one is falling out another one is growing in to take it's place. Clipping them only temporarily prevents them from flying so it's nothing like removing a voice box or cutting off part of an ear.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, but I still think loping off tails and cropping ears is a ridiculous.


Ya it's pretty barbaric lol. I don't see the necessity of it in now days world. I don't mind tail docks though. Gsp is so sexy all docked up on point. And sheep, o my! Like looking at a beautiful Christmas sweater from grandma in the pre-stages of creation, like I guess one could say before sweater conception. Always makes your imagination soar wondering what it's gonna look like! 

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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jaythethird said:


> Ya it's pretty barbaric lol. I don't see the necessity of it in now days world. I don't mind tail docks though. Gsp is so sexy all docked up on point. And sheep, o my! Like looking at a beautiful Christmas sweater from grandma in the pre-stages of creation, like I guess one could say before sweater conception. Always makes your imagination soar wondering what it's gonna look like!
> 
> Sent from my N860


Sheep are docked for a very good reason. If we didn't dock our lambs they would die from fly strike very quickly over here.....


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

Ya I know. I like docked sheep. You thought what i said was a joke? No, I was explaining how much I love sheep. AND their little docked tails.... Like I seriously love them like O ya 

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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jaythethird said:


> Like I seriously love them like O ya
> 
> Sent from my N860


I love them too.......especially with gravy.......


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## Jaythethird (Jul 1, 2013)

sparra said:


> I love them too.......especially with gravy.......


Mutton sammich, fried onions and gravy.... A Little horse radish, Omg Omg... Mashed spuds on the side, Lord almighty save me from this fantasy world 

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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I've had several Dobermans over the years, and was involved in Dobe rescue for about 10 years. I've never had a natural eared Dobe. I don't like the look. I also don't like thin whippet tails on a Dobe either. 

As far as _personal_ experience with cropping, when I got my red girl Tessa at 8 weeks old, her ears had just been cropped. It did _NOT_ take weeks of painful care to get her ears to stand. The taping and posting was so easy on her. She never acted like they hurt at all, and they healed quickly. 

Now, rescue dogs. LOTS of natural eared (and some all natural) Dobes show up in rescue. They typically are from BYBs, and for the most part, poor quality Dobes. So you have floppy eared Dobes from pet lines. They are harder to adopt out. They look like B&T coonhound mixes. It is SO much harder to place a dog that is not cropped and docked. Whether you think that is crazy or not, it is the reality of it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I haven't read all the replies, but here's my $0.02:

I like the look of a cropped ear. I do NOT like the look of the super tall show ear on Dobes and Danes. They never seem to stand quite right unless held in position, and they flop all over the place when the dog moves. I prefer a moderately short crop like on Standard Schnauzers and AmStaffs. I do NOT like the super-short "earless" look on some LGD breeds and some ABPTs.

Medically... there can be complications during a crop, the pup has to undergo general anesthesia, there is always risk of infections or injuries, the pup has to wear these reindeer antlers on his head for the ears to grow and heal properly, and it no doubt must be irritating. Plus, the pup cannot play with other dogs during the healing period. I think a lot depends on how long the crop is, though. With Standard Schnauzers the posting period is fairly short and relatively painless, whereas Dobes and Danes with those long show crops must be in the reindeer hat for weeks.

If the crop does not "take" or heal properly, the dog is pretty much ruined for a show career, and he looks kinda goofy for the rest of his life.

Ear cropping is expensive. Very expensive for unnecessary surgery.

There may be some benefits to ear cropping, especially if the dog is a breed that is prone to ear infections, hematomas, and injuries. I think Neapolitan Mastiffs have a super close crop, which is probably good for them. I have also heard the argument that if your dog gets lost and ends up in the shelter, the presence of cropped ears will indicate the dog is owned, and therefore the shelter may go the extra mile to find an owner. I am not certain if this argument has any merit; by the same token, if the shelter staff are opposed to ear cropping, they may want to make sure the dog doesn't go back to that horrible person that did it to him.

Ethically--is it right or wrong? I am not sure if I would have it done, but it really depends on the breed and whether the dog has a "career". If I was going to show the dog, I'd have to think long and hard about it. If the dog was to be a companion only, I probably wouldn't bother to crop unless it was a breed that has health benefits from it (Neapolitan Mastiff etc). As much as I love the look of a cropped Dobe or Schnauzer, I would have a hard time justifying the cost of it, plus I have my own ethical concerns. I don't believe it is "wrong" per se, and I don't have an issue with people that do it, nor do I believe it needs to be banned. But I don't think *I* would do it unless I had to.

The funny thing is: I don't have a huge problem with cropping, but I don't like the docking of tails. Tail docking is an extremely quick, safe, and atraumatic procedure when done by a professional. The puppies are 3-5 days old, they yelp maybe a couple of times, then go right back to nursing like nothing happened. Nowhere near as traumatic and complicated as an ear crop, and yet, I want the tail ON the dog. To me, a tail is useful for communication so it makes it easier to read the dog, and it makes a convenient handle in a pinch. I don't buy the anti-docking arguments the Rottie people have like "it changes their conformation". The only good reason I see for docking a tail is if the tail is prone to injury, and if you want to keep things *on* your coffee table. 

While a Doberman looks silly with natural ears, I think they look great with natural tails.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

sparra said:


> It really is a stretch to compare reasons for desexing to cropping ears......
> 
> I can't think of another species that we chop bits off of just for our visual pleasure......apart from us humans of course
> 
> All the time on this forum people harp on about the fact that if you don't like certain things about a GSD then don't get one.....get a lab, get a St Bernard if you like em big.....but with the Doberman if you don't like floppy ears....well just chop em off and Bob's your uncle......


You're right, it is a stretch. But at the end of the day its true. We spay and neuter because as a society we are not only unable to properly train and control our animals, but we are unable to hold other owners up to a proper standard. It is what it is, it will never change, I think we should spay and neuter most pets because people are stupid. But dont sugar coat it, and except it for what it is.

If you can perform a major abdominal surgery on your dog because you dont want to handle a little responsibility or mess here or there, why cant I perform a minor surgical procedure on my pet because I dont want a skinny looking hound? 

As well, because the breed was docked and cropped from the start, THAT is the dog people fell in love with. So by docking and cropping now, they arent changing the breed. And the intimidation factor has a right to be a huge factor, because it was very large in the very creation of the dobermann.

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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

I find alot of people do crop ears for show but personally I dont believe in it its not like cropping ears serves a purpose spaying neutering does saves alot of unwanted pups personally I love danes and dobes way they are I think look ugly with ears up here in uk danes and dobes have ears natural and love that look 

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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jaythethird said:


> Clipping a bird allows it Not to fly. It would be more comparable to removing a dogs voice box or removing a horses foot. Considering most birds fly, you are taking away it's
> 
> 
> Sent from my N860




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I believe they mean pinioning which is diving part of the muscle


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