# Xrays for prevention?



## GSDMaya (Apr 15, 2009)

Hello All,

My vet mentioned that it would a good idea to take Xrays of Maya (4 months female) when she gets spayed in July (she will be 6 months then). He said it could help detect bones problems at an early age. 

What do you think? The cost is $300 just for 2 Xrays ($100 per xrays plus $100 for specialist to review the xrays (I want that job!!).

Also, they mentioned a blood sample, which is $65 (optional).

If we go with everything listed above the bill will be about $800.

To spay only it will be $300.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Your vet is ripping you off with the "specialist eval".

Send the xrays to the OFA and for $35 they will eval both hips and elbows (or $30 for just hips). 

http://www.offa.org/hdappbw.pdf


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## vomonyxhaus (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangYour vet is ripping you off with the "specialist eval".
> 
> Send the xrays to the OFA and for $35 they will eval both hips and elbows (or $30 for just hips).
> 
> http://www.offa.org/hdappbw.pdf


And not only on the x-rays!!!!! 300.00 for a spay?????
185.00 in our area when you go to a vet that isn't trying to rip you off..... and in Pasco the county even gives you 50.00 back after your pet is spayed or neutered!!!!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Yeah, should be; Spay $200, Xrays - $30, Radiologist ? Can't remember other than the $35 ofa. I've had medved in Columbus ohio look at xrays, but I'd have to look for it. 

Maybe you should find a new vet before the spay. Texas can't be that expensive.

Maybe you should go to the general forum and ask for referals from other Texas people in your area. 

If you dog is generally healthy, you can skip the bloodwork.


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## GSDMaya (Apr 15, 2009)

I phoned another vet in my area and they charge $165! That also includes1 night stay, bathing and stiches removal after 7 days.....I guess I need to swtich vets!
They also told me the Xrays are not that important at that age (6 months) since I won't even be breeding her and hips problems don't even become apparent until they are at least 3 years old.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Another thing, when my (old) vet gives estimates on surgeries, they list a price range from minimum to maximum and all the options. Sometimes the options include Frontline, and microchips. Go figure. But the minimum price is around $150. Options add up and include, bloodwork, laser, head cone.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

It's not always true that hip problems don't become apparent until 2-3 years old. I had a dog that showed obvious signs and had problems getting up at 6/7 months old. X-rays at that time enabled me to decide if I wanted to have TPO done on his hips. 
I'd say if you haven't seen like trouble getting up or severe limping that its true you don't need to have x-rays done at 6 months, but be vigilant in observing your dog.

PS - I had the TPO done on him and he lived to almost 15 without any further hip problems.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Let me ask? Is there something that might look right when your girl runs? Do you suspect something might be a miss with her hips? 

When we bought our last GSD (Now living with my mom) she ran funny and was not out growing the "bunny hop" that GSD pups can sometimes display as pups. Because of this I had her Hips X -rayed at 6 months old and the vet said they did not look good and explained what he saw. 

We had her X rayed again at 2 years old and sure enough she was real bad on 1 side but the other side was O.K we then had her re evaluated at 6 years old and her good hip was then her bad hip and her bad hip had no change. 

Hexen is turning 11 years old on July 2 and she still can get around and does not show any signs of pain...

With my current GSD hella I saw right away the difference in her gait from Hexens. Wow what a difference in the way they run and move. 
So no do not get her hips done yet unless you suspect something.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I would even wait on the spaying if you can. Maybe after her second cycle or at least after she turns 1 year old.


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## GSDMaya (Apr 15, 2009)

She does do the "bunny hop" when she runs but she is only 4 months! Is that still normal?


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

I checked Maya's history - sounds like she came from a not-so-great-breeder so I would do preliminary Xrays at 6months: they won't tell you that she won't develop dysplagia BUT they will tell you if she has good/fair/poor hips & elbows at 6months.
If she does have some dysplagia, starting at 6mo with supplements & monitoring her activity, doing special activities to strengthen etc can make a big difference in her longterm prognosis.
Many dogs do not show obvious symptoms even when they are dysplagic so I wouldn't use that as a criteria.


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## GSDMaya (Apr 15, 2009)

Alto, how did you check her history?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

This is just me, and I'm just a person with a well loved pet.

When Dante was neutered I had his hips x-rayed and sent of to OFA for prelims (Wish I had requested the elbows as well!) and had the results published.

I did all this for two reasons, 1st my own peace of mind to know if I should be doing anything differently with him. 2nd I believe I owed it to his breeder and to her future puppy buyers to have it done and published so all would know.

Now I was in a bit of a different boat than you are because Dante was 14 months old and not 6 months. Per OFA the % of change from the prelim to the final at 2 years old decreases as time passes before the first x-ray. That said, if I have a pup and they're older than 4 months (OFA's earliest age) and they're going under for anything, they'll be x-rayed and sent to OFA. Dante's hips prelimed as good and his final at 2 was excellent.

So if you go this route, make sure your vet is skilled with proper positining of the dog for hip/elbow x-rays and as an FYI for a price (don't know if it's still $5.00 or not) OFA will return the x-rays to you.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

sorry - just meant your posting history on the board here ...


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## GSDMaya (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok, Tkx Alto, then that brings me to another question....how can we check the reputation of our breeder if the pup was AKC registered?


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Yes GSDmaya Bunny hopping at 4 months is normal, bunny hopping by 6 months is also normal, but by this time you should also start to see some normal gait coming out when they run (depending on how fast the pup is maturing). 

I just had enough experience to notice something was a miss with Hexen by that age)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My opinion is that an x-ray at six months will not tell you if the pup will have fair, good, or excellent hips, sorry. I think it is a waist of money to x-ray a dog that young if it is not experiencing issues. In fact, it could be dangerous. 

I say this because if you pre-lim your pup at six months and find her clear of any joint issues, then you might feel free to start agility or other strenuous things, which she will probably LOVE. However, since we know that the ofa changed the minimum age for certifying for hip displasia, etc., because of too many issues cropping up later, it is highly possible that you can have an issue that is simply not showing up yet. Puppies are generally born with normal hips. They are measured when the dog is 1 (pen hip) or 2 (ofa) and this gives a good indication of the wear and placement of the hips. 

And so, even if you do not do agility, etc., it is also possible that when your 6-month normal pup becomes six or seven and starts showing issues, you may be more likely to overlook them or you may have had better luck x-raying at two to determine whether supplements make sense. 

Save yourself the money and provide the supplements for healthy hips if you want. No added calcium. I think Ester C, and Glaucosomine and Chondroiton are good. Keep her on the thin side, and do not encourage jumping on hard surfaces, running long distances, etc. But let her be a puppy/dog. Down the line, maybe she will warrant an x-ray. It will cost more because of the sedation, etc, to do it separately, but not so much as to risk a premature evaluation in my opinion.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think your decision to x-ray depends on what you plan to do if the x-ray shows dysplasia. There are several surgical options that can only be done on younger dogs that are still growing and before arthritic changes set in - the JPS surgery is typically done on very young dogs and the TPO surgery is done on dogs under about 10 months. So there's a pretty narrow age window in which to act.

So, if you think you might want to go either of those routes or would at least like that option, it's a good idea to x-ray now so you can make an educated decision. The advantages of both those surgeries is that they are less expensive and less risky than a hip replacement later and can ward off future problems. 

If you wouldn't consider either of those surgeries, then it makes more sense to give her joint supplements now and defer the x-rays until down the road when and if you see a problem.

As far as age to spay there are a lot of threads on this topic and while some on this board feel it's better to wait, others (including me) think the health benefits of spaying before the first heat outweigh any negatives, so personally I would go ahead with your proposed time table. But that's going to be a personal decision for you and what you feel comfortable with and what your vet recommends.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wasn't thinking about those operations as a reason to x-ray at this point. If I were considering that though, I would definitely want a specialist involved with the whole process as was suggested by your vet. 

I hate to even think that anyone would put a puppy through an unnecessary surgery, but my mind is going there anyway. I would ask that they put the x-rays on cd for you and get yet a third (unconnected) opinion before doing any type of surgery.

That will cost even more money.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

If anything, you learned your vet is ripping people off! $300 for a spay? Holy crap! 

I plan on getting Anna xrayed/OFA'd at two just for my own peace of mind. She's spayed and not going to be bred, but it's just something I want to know.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

What we normally do with x-rays is have them done and looked at by our regular vet and then if he/she thinks there's any concern, we head to a specialist. This is what we did with Leo. I had him x-rayed when he was under for his neuter, the vet thought those x-rays looked bad and mailed them to the local ortho specialist. That guy agreed but there wasn't any charge for mailing them or his saying that. Our next step was to take Leo to the ortho clinic and have him re x-rayed there on their fancier machine. Based on those x-rays we decided to go with TPO surgeries on both sides. He's 4 years old now so it's too soon to know if we successfully fixed the problem long term but so far so good. He runs and plays and hikes with all the other dogs and we've never seen any signs of soreness or lameness. 

If you do x-ray and it's not good news, I highly recomend the hip dysplasia yahoo group. There is a lot of specialized knowledge on there and a lot of different approaches to dealing with HD.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I had Nikon x-rayed at 7 months, but mainly because we have possibly the best veterinary radiologist in the world nearby and we were doing a batch of dogs so I had Nikon checked as well. $130 for hip and elbow prelims, regular films (not digital). I did not submit to OFA since they are only prelims and the person who did the films is more qualified to read them than the OFA panel, lol.


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## GSDMaya (Apr 15, 2009)

Thank you all for your suggestions. I don't see any problems with Maya so far...so we decided to wait on the xrays but we will be watching her over the next months/years.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I had asked this question in December and most of the responses that I got suggested it was a good idea to do the x-ray at the time of the spay. Looks like there is a different set of posters here today.

Vet rates in the US are cheap. I paid $328 for a spay, $79.80 for pre-ssurgical mini screen blood work, $34.92 for Metacam, $106.00 for the growth removal on her tongue, $151.80 for analyis of growth, $124.70 for hip x-rays and $10.00 for a buster clollar, pus 5% taxes on everthing.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI think your decision to x-ray depends on what you plan to do if the x-ray shows dysplasia.....
> 
> If you wouldn't consider either of those surgeries, then it makes more sense to give her joint supplements now and defer the x-rays until down the road when and if you see a problem.


Good point.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

One of my favorite sites Way back when I was single and poor I used this to help get my first boxer neutered and his shots as a pup. 

http://www.spayusa.org/


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: MaryW....Vet rates in the US are cheap. ...


Remember Mary, that we talk US Dollars down here - so factor that in to any comparison.

If you have a board certified surgeon do a routine spay down here last year it would have cost $400 or so + clinic charges. I learned this as I was talking to the Dr. and he had tried to talk a client out of having him do a routine spay when she could have it done for less at her other vet.

It's been 10 years since I had a spay done on a pup and that was in Wyoming. Barker the Younger was big even at 6 months so her surgery cost more than a smaller dog would have. It is also very important that they have the equipment to monitor your dog while she is under. A surgery at a clinic with the best equipment is going to cost a bit more too.

As I understand it, you get better films if you don't knock the dog out for your hip xrays. OK that info is way old too. Has the thinking changed on this? You do want to have a knowledgable vet do those xrays though because positioning is important.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> 
> And not only on the x-rays!!!!! 300.00 for a spay?????
> ...
> ...


Anyone who has spent any time on this health board has long ago found that vet prices vary drastically depending not only upon region, but also from city to rural areas within the same state. 

It's hard to say that a vet is "ripping someone off" because of their prices. A first x-ray around here runs about (pulling out my most recent bill...) $152. That includes the radiologist's fee. The second and third films are cheaper. The fourth, fifth, etc views are much cheaper. That's at my regular vet's office.

At the specialist's office (they don't send out films to the radiologist), the first two views (xrays) cost $178. 

That's what things cost here for quality care.









My beagle, Meri's spay ran around $350, and I recall being pleased because it was cheaper because she's so little that she required less anesthesia, etc (as middle says).

I do get prelim films done for all my kids. I have the radiologist read them. With Camper, he noticed a slight narrowing in his lumbar spine, at L4-5. This isn't something that OFA would comment on (I don't think). But it's something that my radiologist DID see (because they read the WHOLE xray). So even though his elbows and hips were perfect, I made sure that I limited (as much as possible) certain activities that would stress his lower back. I continued to watch that and xrayed it twice more as he aged, just to make sure that it wasn't getting worse.

With Meri, her hips are great, but there was a very slight flat spot on her right elbow. I got her as my agility dog, but I never planned to let her do any jumping or contacts before her first birthday anyhow (I don't with any of my pups). However, I'm now VERY cautious with her elbows. No jumping off the bed, or off anything else for that matter. I also started her on supplements much earlier than I would have otherwise. 

She just turned a year and I'll get a quick picture when I bring her in for her regular exam. The radiologist thought that this area may very well resolve itself with growth (the prelims were taken when she was 6 months old). But I opted to be very cautious just in case. My vet is of the opinion that as long as it doesn't get worse, she'll be fine for a career as an agility dog. So my job is to make sure we keep that area perfectly stable. Ultimately, it's not her agility career I'm worried about -- it's her ability to bounce up stairs when she's 15 years old. 

With both of my kids, I saw no evidence of any issues, and I honestly can't tell you that either of these *would* have become problems, especially crippling problems. But I'm glad that I knew about them ahead of time and was able to take proactive steps to minimize long term harm. 

OFA says:



> Quote:
> A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).


If I were a betting woman, I would put money down on a 89.6% bet every time. THAT is why I do prelim xrays on my young kids. I work with them starting the day I get them so that they're used to lying on their backs, still, for a period of time, so they don't *have* to be sedated for xrays, even if the vet is pulling their legs to get them in the right position. But when they're anesthetized, it's a no-brainer to spend a few extra minutes getting the xrays (my vet is very quick. If my vet didn't know how to take OFA quality xrays quickly, I'd hesitate to keep my kids under anesthesia longer than necessary.)

It's popular to accuse vets of being out for a quick buck, but the thing is that a board-certified radiologist does look at the whole xray and may see something that OFA doesn't. And even in day-to-day life, I don't ever just accept my regular vet's reading of xrays. I want a radiologist. We can take xrays of a shoulder that seems painful. The radiologist will look at the film and say "the shoulder looks ok, perhaps just a slight strain, but the lungs aren't quite right. You need to have those looked at asap." Radiologists, imo, are the most under-appreciated specialists in medicine. 

Rates vary from one place to another. Some vets have higher costs than others because they employ registered vet techs instead of simple veterinary assistants (who have training and knowledge that varies wildly). Yes, some charge too much. But I don't know that someone across the country should be making that call.









I'm the first one to say when a vet is overstepping their bounds. But I don't know, in this case, that that's the situation here. 

The bottom line is that for me, a $500 or $800 bill may be just a huge amount of money that gives me little but a spayed animal that I could have had spayed at the Humane Society for far less. Or that could be an incredible investment that I will be so thankful that I made, for the rest of my dog's life. 

There's no way to know ahead of time. If you trust your vet, you make the investment. If you don't trust your vet, find a vet you DO trust.


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