# When to neuter a "working dog"



## ristakrat

One of the male puppies that I retained for our Puppy Training Program has had a request from it's future owners to have the dog neutered while in my care (the puppy stays with us until its 16 weeks old for training) As stated in my contract, I do not spay or neuter a puppy while in my care, but I am thinking they will probably want this puppy neutered eventually. 
In the meantime they have also enrolled him in our personal protection dog program that begins at 6 months old. Because of the training and work they want out of this dog I really can't think of any reason to have the dog neutered other than to prevent him from impregnating another dog. I also don't like how neutering a dog sometimes makes them look a bit feminine. Just my personal preference of course, and I haven't actually worked with a neutered dog in a couple years and never for training other than socialization and obedience. So I am not aware of it inhibiting a dog's potential in that aspect. 
I don't want to see this dog neutered but if they insist, what would be the best age to have the procedure done? As early as possible, or later in life? Such as 18 months or so? I'd like to have all of his training complete and then let them decide what they want to do with him as far as neutering goes. I think they are worried about him being too much for them to handle, but with proper training and consistency I really don't see that being a problem.


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## msvette2u

Did you ask them why they'd like him neutered now?
Perhaps they want to avoid "male trait" behaviors like marking?


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## Elaine

He's going to be their dog. If they want to have him neutered, let them neuter him. It's not the end of the world. There's pros and cons to early and late neutering. Stay out of it and let them do it whenever they feel like it.


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## msvette2u

Elaine said:


> He's going to be their dog. If they want to have him neutered, let them neuter him. It's not the end of the world. There's pros and cons to early and late neutering. Stay out of it and let them do it whenever they feel like it.


:thumbup:
There's pros and cons to everything in life and everything w/dogs.


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## ristakrat

Because I'm the breeder and the trainer of this puppy I am thinking they will decide to go with whatever I suggest to them. I am also thinking they want it done to avoid "male trait" behaviors as mentioned above. At what age would you suggest the procedure be done. I know there is a lot of back and forth on spaying time frames. Is it the same for males?


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## msvette2u

If they want to avoid the butthead male stage AKA teenager syndrome, I'd say 6-8 mos. 
If he's going to be around a lot of girls in heat though, probably closer to 6mos. so he doesn't clue in as to breeding behaviors


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## Elaine

There are pros and cons to early and late. I don't push either one on anyone and let them make the decision that's right for them. 

As I find the vast majority of people aren't responsible enough to have an intact dog of any age, my personal preference is to do it as early as possible.


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## ristakrat

Thanks! I'll let them make the decision that they feel is best for their dog and maybe include a few links to some information I found online showing the pros and cons of both.


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## Sunflowers

You really think that the butthead teenager thing will just go away with neutering? I think this is more brain related than hormonal. Yes, hormones can affect the brain, but I think removing testicles will not resolve maturity issues.


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## msvette2u

No, not all of it but the part that becomes obsessed with the hind ends of females may


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## x.WOLFiE.x

Is there an age to do it so that the bad behavior is avoided, but they still get as large as they normally would without neutering? i.e. a perfect age. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## msvette2u

I haven't had working dogs but IMO 6-8 mos. is fine, genetics play as large of role in "looking feminine" as neutering (or not) does.


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## Shade

msvette2u said:


> No, not all of it but the part that becomes obsessed with the hind ends of females may


:rofl: Yep!

OP - I agree it's their dog and I would personally rather see a neutered dog rather then unneutered in a novice owners hands.


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## Elaine

x.WOLFiE.x said:


> Is there an age to do it so that the bad behavior is avoided, but they still get as large as they normally would without neutering? i.e. a perfect age.


Good training and exercise is what is needed to avoid bad behavior. There is no perfect age for neutering, just pros and cons for early and late. You have to decide for yourself what works for you and your dog.


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## msvette2u

We just had intake of a Schnauzer x Poodle at about 7-8mos. of age, and upon meeting his new family's female (not spayed but had made an appointment, she was 12mos. or so) he became completely obsessed! 

It is my belief, after working in rescue for some 10yrs., that boys at that age don't really 'know' what is going on, but have some inkling, a tiny clue, and are prone to, well, becoming obsessed and thus being a "butt head"!

Any girl not in standing heat is not going to appreciate the boy taking such an interest in her hindermost parts! My spayed girls get very testy when these "teenage boy" dogs start rooting around in their hineys!! 

That's what I meant by "butthead" behavior


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## Liesje

Pros and cons any way you do it so I'd let the owners decide what's best. I've never had problems with my intact males and they train, play, compete, and show with intact females (yes even ones in standing heat, as that is allowed in conformation and certain performance events). My "butthead" happens to be my mix who was neutered around 3 months old. He's my humper too. Nikon, my adult intact male has never humped anything. If a female is in standing heat and he's got his snout in her you know what or is lingering where she marked or dripped then he will drool and chatter but I don't let him do this and it's not like he's trying to drag me out of the house or across a field to get to a female. Honestly it's just never been an issue, other than just having general control over a dog and training a dog manners in public and around other dogs.


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## CeCe

Traditionally dogs used for personal protection are not neutered. If I had a male puppy that I wanted to neuter the earliest I would do it is age 2 and a half.


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't think there is an "age" to do it, I do know i'd never do it at 18 weeks of age, to young in my opinion.

I have had intact dogs up until around 2-2.5 at times, and I didn't have any problems , of course I didn't have intact females around, tho I'm sure we may have come across some out in the big wide world.

In this case I would neuter, but I'd try to put it off until atleast 18months , I speuter when growth plates have closed.


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## Rerun

Have they already bought and paid for this dog and he's simply with you for training and evaluation? Is there a chance he may not work out for their needs? I wouldn't neuter until, at the very least, he's paid for 100% just in case things don't work out with these people. Most people will want him intact as a sport dog.


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## ristakrat

They have bought the dog and paid for training through 4 months of age. The next training program starts at 6 months of age and they seem very interested. I _would_ like to work with the dog/puppy intact just in case the procedure does have any affect on him. I am sure that with training they will have no problems keeping this puppy/dog under control. It would just stink to put all this training into him and then for him to be neutered while with his owners between training and he come back to me... different  I'll let them weigh the options but to protect myself I will recommend them make that choice after training is complete and he has finished growing. Funny story, the same puppy we are talking about killed a snake today! 5 weeks and one day old and he killed a snake. It was the size of a large worm... but still!!! A snake!


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## VonKromeHaus

Liesje said:


> Pros and cons any way you do it so I'd let the owners decide what's best. I've never had problems with my intact males and they train, play, compete, and show with intact females (yes even ones in standing heat, as that is allowed in conformation and certain performance events). My "butthead" happens to be my mix who was neutered around 3 months old. He's my humper too. Nikon, my adult intact male has never humped anything. If a female is in standing heat and he's got his snout in her you know what or is lingering where she marked or dripped then he will drool and chatter but I don't let him do this and it's not like he's trying to drag me out of the house or across a field to get to a female. Honestly it's just never been an issue, other than just having general control over a dog and training a dog manners in public and around other dogs.


Excellent Post!!!!


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## Jag

My male was intact until he was at least 4. I never had any issues with him. Since the dog is still with you and undergoing training (and I think you said you don't fix dogs when they're with you)... I would explain your policy to them and tell them that it's best to allow his training to be completed. Then AFTER they've taken possession of the dog, the choice is up to them. Ask why they are wanting the boy to be fixed so early. Maybe they're going by myths or other people's horror stores. Especially if they're first time GSD owners. I don't know if I will neuter my new boy at all. I want all that testosterone for training purposes. I've had experience in keeping intact males from females, though. It can be done. You want to really understand where they're coming from, but I see no reason to violate your own rules for them. Besides, what happens if they suddenly want to not take the dog after all of this training? If he turns out to be a fabulous sport or protection prospect, it could come back to bite you.


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## ladylaw203

Neutering does not stop marking etc. That has to do with the individual dog. The worst dog I ever trained that marked everything was neutered as a pup. There is some new research with regard to neutering young. I will post a link later when I locate it


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## ladylaw203

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


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## msvette2u

ladylaw203 said:


> Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


And here is the rebuttal to that one study.
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf


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## ladylaw203

The bottom line is that neutering does not change temperament. There is just no real reason to do it unless ones dog is loose with unspayed females. I have had dogs, horses,cattle, etc etc my whole life and never had an accidental pregnancy with dogs nor livestock.


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## DFrost

I'm a chauvinistic dog trainer. Females are spayed before they are entered into training. Males are not unless advised medically advised to the contrary. 

DFrost


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## msvette2u

DFrost said:


> I'm a chauvinistic dog trainer. Females are spayed before they are entered into training. Males are not unless advised medically advised to the contrary.
> 
> DFrost



:laugh:


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## Elektra2167

All our working dogs are intact, male or female. Unless there is a specific reason to neuter them, we don't. We do find some handlers prefer their dogs neutered, that is their choice, but we have never had a problem working a male or female intact. And yes all our boys learn they have to work around the girls. They may not like it initially, but they learn to work through it.


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