# Not sure whether to keep our dog.



## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Hi I'm new. Well here's the story. We bought our white GSD 2 years ago. The litter of pups were breed by a vet so we trusted them. The pups were supposed to be shipped off to the Far East for protection I think. The contract fell through and we saw them at 4 months. We asked if the dog would be suitable for us as we have children and have never owned a GSD before - they assured us that we would be fine and if we had any problems we were welcome to come back.

Our dog is bred from a mother who is show KC registered and the father is from working European background. 

Anyway the pup hadn't had any vaccinations so we had to wait another couple of weeks before we could take her out. 

The first time we tried to walk her she wouldn't budge an inch. We tried many different techniques but she just wouldn't walk down the street. We were obviously quite concerned as we realised that she needed socialising as she was getting old now. We couldn't make the dog walk. I have never in my life come across this before. No amount of cajoling for three weeks would move her.

I took her to dog training when she was properly immunised and I had to carry her to the class. This was really bad as you can imagine she was quite big by now.

The classes did help but still no walking along the street. Also if I did manage to get her to go on a walk somewhere away from the house she would just bolt back and go under the car after a couple of metres.

We called the breeder back to tell them about our problems and they offered to give us another dog half price as this would help her. I told them I didn't want the dog but they wouldn't let us return her.

In the end we bought a Jacairn to help get her moving. This worked and she would walk no problem with the other dog! Not what I'd bargained for when buying the dog! Anyway they started fighting before too long and sadly had to re-home the Jacairn very sad about that as he was a lovely dog.

Anyway sorry for long post cut story short she is very sharp and will snap and lunge all the time at people on walks had a couple of incidents where she has gone for people off lead + on (not bitten anyone properly though thank God). Now on lead when anyone around. 

Not sure what the best way forward is with this dog. We paid a lot of money for her from what we thought was a reputable breeder and have been put off GSDs for life! Please help. ps she is soppy around all the family and has never once shown any aggression towards us totally different dog at home.

Just want to know if this it typical and what you would do in this situation.

Apologises again for such a long post.


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## Charlie W (Feb 12, 2013)

We had a similar experience with an adult rescue GSD mix that was lovely with the family, but stressed and fearful of anybody else. She was a big dog and at 2 years old we were facing the prospect of having to manage her aggression for 10+ years. We spent a lot of time and money trying to change her behaviour around other people, but in the end we came to the agonizing decision to have her put to sleep. She was dangerous and I felt that the hard decision was also the responsible one.

Our experience didn't put us of the GSD breed, but I will never take on another adult rescue, she was too damaged and it was too heart-wrenching, especially as she bonded so well with the family.

I can't really help you with your situation, but it sounds similar to ours and that's what we did.

I know some people won't agree with our decision, and if I felt it were relevant here I would go into detail about her behaviour, background, the monumental efforts we made and how sad we were when we decided to have her put to sleep. But that's not relevant now. What I will say is that even though we missed the lovely side of her, we didn't realize until she was gone how very stressful having her had been for all of us. Living with the constant worry that she would bite someone was dreadful and I don't envy you your situation.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks for your reply Charlie. That is sad to have to put your dog to sleep. I'm sorry to hear that. It's true not a day goes by when I don't think about what should I do with the dog. I do really like her but as you say it is difficult to live with a dog that is so sharp with everyone. I have 3 children so the house can be hectic so I feel like I'm constantly monitoring the door in case one of their friends calls by. Also not sure I would be able to re-home her. I don't know whether I would be able to put the dog to sleep as she is so loyal. I do worry that if she got out somehow whether she would bite someone on the street or if a child managed to climb into our garden somehow. I feel that I am constantly watching her and as you say that is pretty tiring and stressful.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I too euthanized a dog at 3.5 yrs due to aggression. I bought him from a breeder, and he was fear aggressive. I tried everything, even medication. Even though he was the sweetest dog with me, he was so hard to manage and handle. Not fair to anyone. It was heartbreaking.

As far as your dog.... ive never been a fan of white german shepherds. With so few registries (largely outside of canada) allowing them to show or compete, I find the number of "reputable" breeders breeding them is next to none. Mostly back yard breeders out to make a quick dollar by selling "rare and beautiful" white german shepherds. I know some on here will disagree because they are lucky and have the odd good white german Shepherd, but I strongly believe that most of them have extreme temperament issues like what you describe due to poor breeding. And its really sad for the dogs. Just like my luther, animals with temperament faults should NOT br bred.

If someone was breeding and selling REAL german shepherds for personal protection work, very unlikely they would be using white dogs.

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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

This is looking bad. Not what I expected. We had talked of putting her to sleep but not seriously. I'm now concerned - are you saying to put her to sleep because if she escaped she could bite someone: or because she is too difficult to handle? Also the kids would be heartbroken as their dog died; we just re-homed the Jacairn and now looking at putting this dog to sleep: they will be traumatised.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Im not saying that. I am saying many times weak temperament is genetic. Add to the fact that she was older when you got her. Understand that many of these problems can never be FIXED, only managed.

I would look at some SERIOUS training. Not large chain corporate training. A good trainer with experience with both working dogs and aggressive dogs. Contact local schutzhund clubs or german Shepherd clubs for recommendations. 

There is medication that can be looked at if training isnt completely effective. Prozac for example, etc... not the most ideal, but be realistic that you have a large liability on your hands. A potentially very dangerous dog, and you have children. You need to do what you need to do to protect everybody, and protect your own dog.

I NEVER want to tell someone online to euthanize their dog. That is an innapropriate call, none of us have seen the dog, the way you handle, the training you've done. I again just want to be realistic, an aggressive dog is a large liability and SOMETHING needs to be done, more training, or medication (or there are some good calming natural supplements, like lavender oil), or rehoming to a more experience home, or euthanasia.

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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

sounds like your dog needs rules and training. from the sounds of it she's kinda doing her own thing from lack of direction. not sure she is a case that should be PTS.

are you continueing training classes, or a private trainer? it takes alot of time and patience to work on this. a BIG commitment and a top priority. i believe it can be worked through with the right steps if you are willing to put the time in. shy sharp dogs are difficult and probably will never be 100% trust worthy, but you can improve things dramatically with training and direction, these types of dogs are never allowed to make their own decisions you need to make them. believe me i know because i have one of those.............who has dramatically improved with lots of time, training, and the right professional trainers, etc.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Hi Debbie, my husband spends a lot of time training her. In fact all his spare time is taken up with this. Also when he is not there I do some with her too. Believe me he spends ages researching the right tecniques. We are definitely very pro-active with her. The only other thing we are going to do is take her to a GSD club and see how she is there. Even though we are not experienced GSD owners we have carefully looked at how to train them etc so not leash aggressive.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks Anubis you have given some very good advice and I will definitely look into the medication and try to get a recommended trainer. I don't want to keep spending money on her if she essentially won't change. She is definitely under control and isn't allowed to do whatever she likes around the house. I never leave her unattended especially around the children. We are consistent handlers and don't allow the dog to take over.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

good move taking her to a gsd club. hopefully there are people there who can help. is there a quailified trainer there, or just GSD people getting together to train. thats good you are working with her, but honestly i think you need someone objective to see how you are handling her. sometimes we cannot see what we are doing that some else qualified can see which can make a huge difference. more times than not someone else takes the dog and walks with them without you and they do not react, because the source of why they are reacting is removed. maybe the leash is to tight, maybe its a bit of fear and protective stuff, maybe its just practiced behavior.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes I think you're right getting some other people to see how we are handling her may be good - but in all honesty I don't think we are doing anything wrong. Do you have another 
dog with your shy dog Debbie? I would really like to get another dog and was wondering if I should get a bigger breed dog. I'm sad to think of the next 10+ years with a dog like this. Maybe I would feel better about her if I had another stable shepherd. What do you think?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

none of us seeks out a dog like this, it is a big responsibility and requires consistant work and training. and you always have to be aware of your surroundings. i do have another dog with my shy sharp dog, but i had her before he came. honestly no sure adding another dog for you right now is a good idea, i think you should put 100% into the dog for a few years and maybe with time and age things will get better where you can add another. adding one right now would take time away from a dog that needs alot.............just my opinion ...............you really do have a responsibility and a commitment to this dog first. not that you would rehome since its not easy to rehome this dog, but better to do it if you don't think you can commit to helping her. i do detect some resentment in your words "hating to be stuck with a dog like her for 10 plus years" resentment and negative feeling most definitely rub off on her even though your not aware of it. so think long and hard.................i know you can work with it if thats what you really want to do to keep her and make things better.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Basha said:


> Yes I think you're right getting some other people to see how we are handling her may be good - but in all honesty I don't think we are doing anything wrong.


Im going to stop you right there. Not only have you never handled another german Shepherd, but now your first german Shepherd sounds very fear aggressive. Although you may not be doing anything wrong, I highly doubt you are doing everything right. Fact of the matter is you don't have the experience or knowledge when it comes to training a dog like this. Sounds like you're doing everything you can, but you cant be expected to know how to handle this on your own. Obviously you cant or the dog wouldnt be to this point. Thats no offense to you, it sounds like you're trying a lot harder than many would. But please understand you need an experienced trainer to help show you how to handle a dog like this. The BIGGEST mistake you will make is assuming you know what you're doing and you have the ability to properly train and handle a dog like that without the help of an outside trainer. 



> Do you have another
> dog with your shy dog Debbie? I would really like to get another dog and was wondering if I should get a bigger breed dog. I'm sad to think of the next 10+ years with a dog like this. Maybe I would feel better about her if I had another stable shepherd. What do you think?


Luther grew up with zeke, but we had zeke first. Zeke is a DOLL and very well behaved. Luther loved zeke, but zeke did not help luther behave. In fact I feel they got pack mentality when they were together and egged eachother on. Each dog was easier to handle separated from the other.

Dont get another dog until you have the one you own under control. 


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes you are right we should definitely get experienced shepherd owners to help and trainers to advise us how to manage the situation in the best way for the safety of everyone. What I meant was that this dog was way off when we got her and although we may be doing the odd thing wrong I really don't think we could have affected her behaviour that dramatically.
Do you think there are certain lines that are just more wired and suitable for protection and maybe she would be seen as quite a good dog. The dogs were going to the military in Malaysia they don't like the black and tan ones. I am just wondering whether they specifically bred them to be sharp for this reason.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Basha
I am so sorry this is happening to you.
But, I think your first concern should be for your children. Dogs (any dogs) can destroy a face for life (or worse), with painful surgeries involved. It only takes one moment if you look away. And if you are already not comfortable with this dog around your children, this is something to take into careful consideration. The heartbreak of re-homing is easier than an accident for life.
Best of luck to you and your family.
Mom's


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Hi, no I am comfortable with her around the children she has never shown any aggression towards them. I just wouldn't leave a dog with that potential stable or otherwise alone with my kids.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Basha said:


> Yes you are right we should definitely get experienced shepherd owners to help and trainers to advise us how to manage the situation in the best way for the safety of everyone. What I meant was that this dog was way off when we got her and although we may be doing the odd thing wrong I really don't think we could have affected her behaviour that dramatically.
> Do you think there are certain lines that are just more wired and suitable for protection and maybe she would be seen as quite a good dog. The dogs were going to the military in Malaysia they don't like the black and tan ones. I am just wondering whether they specifically bred them to be sharp for this reason.


No...she is not a good protection dog by anyone's standards. She is fearful and lashes out. Protective dogs only protect when necessary, and they are genetically stable and therefore know exactly where that line is. Your first signal of her not wanting to walk and just freezing up means that she wouldn't have made a good protection dog. You don't want to have to teach a dog how to do every day normal things...including walking on any surface that's thrown in front of the dog.

What it sounds like happened is that that the vet/breeder threw together two extremely wired/driven dogs. Instead of balancing the genetics out, they wanted to go all out and create something like the parents or even "better" than the parents. This tends to sometimes create very drivey dogs that are unstable fearful.

I'm never one to recommend PTS over the internet without seeing the dog. But the last thing you should ever do is rehome this animal. Throwing your problems onto someone else (and the risk associated with it) isn't something I could live with. I would also be very mindful of someone that is "excited" to have a dog like this for "protection" because they are probably going to be alright with the dog making a mistake or two when it comes to biting another person.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

martemchik said:


> No...she is not a good protection dog by anyone's standards. She is fearful and lashes out. Protective dogs only protect when necessary, and they are genetically stable and therefore know exactly where that line is. Your first signal of her not wanting to walk and just freezing up means that she wouldn't have made a good protection dog. You don't want to have to teach a dog how to do every day normal things...including walking on any surface that's thrown in front of the dog.
> 
> What it sounds like happened is that that the vet/breeder threw together two extremely wired/driven dogs. Instead of balancing the genetics out, they wanted to go all out and create something like the parents or even "better" than the parents. This tends to sometimes create very drivey dogs that are unstable fearful.
> 
> *I'm never one to recommend PTS over the internet without seeing the dog. But the last thing you should ever do is rehome this animal. Throwing your problems onto someone else (and the risk associated with it) isn't something I could live with. I would also be very mindful of someone that is "excited" to have a dog like this for "protection" because they are probably going to be alright with the dog making a mistake or two when it comes to biting another person.*


*

*

The reason why I haven't re-homed her already is because I didn't think it was fair to pass the problem onto someone else. That is why I re-homed a lovely stable dog to keep this dog. It is a shame that the breeder didn't feel the same or at least refund us our money. It is not that common in the UK to euthanise dogs unless they have actually bitten someone quite badly. People would prefer that a dog was taken to the dog's home first. I think this thread has made me even more confused.

To ask again: if after taking the dog to a professional trainer + GSD club she still has this fear aggression would you keep her? To be honest if it wasn't for the kids she would have gone 6 months ago.

Also if I have to muzzle her when out for walks it kinda defeats the purpose of having her. I like to walk on my own and feel safe.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Without seeing and observing the dogs behavior - no one can really honestly tell you to euthanize her or how dangerous she is. While your report of her behavior is useful, it is not 100% complete - there are many small signs and cues that an experienced person can read...and no one is going to be able to really give a total concise report of any dogs behavior in a situation like this!

I applaud your responsible attitude....the worst thing in the world to do with an insecure dog is to pass it on to someone else....the dog will be confused and the behavior can escalate....and frankly, few people want this kind of an issue. Is it managable? Only you know what level of commitment and management you and your family are willing to do.

But this is definitely poor genetics. No way is it any one's "fault"...that vet should be kicked soundly in the buttocks! To breed such poor temperament and then not take any responsibility for it!!!!!!

I have said it before, and will say it again - just because someone is a vet does not make them 1. a good breeder or 2. a nutritionist. I spent many years with vets - 4 years at vet school with ex, then working with him, and with/at friends practices. Some of the worst breeders I have seen have been vets!!! One I know breeds Dobermans - the first one she got was a male was Kimbertal lines - over sized and fearful - she bought a female from a "farm breeding" to breed to him! No OFA, no von Willibrands tests - sells the pups to clients (mostly a farm vet)....have seen a few - a disaster....but everyone raves about what a wonderful vet/breeder she is....she used to have Goldens, and had as many Lab x Golden litters as purebred because the dog would go out alone while in heat....

BTW - love your screen name....my imported Belgian GSD came with that call name! Never saw it anywhere else before

Lee


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Older dogs that have problems like this take time lots of time. You can't put a time limit on training. They can sense your emotions of your angry, tense, fearful, or anticipating something bad happening they can sense it and it will rub off on them and you will in turn make them tense or fearful. 

I rescued a 4 year old gsd a year ago and we have had a lot of on going problems fixed some and had more pop up. It is on going on training him and getting is trust. It takes alot of time you can't give up. I have another dog that I have trained all kinds of stuff and I thought I knew everything. I have did probably hundreds of hours of research and watching training videos, but no one knows everything and not every technique will work with every dog, but you cant try one technique one or two times and say well that didn't work.

If you are walking her and you are constantly looking to see if there's a dog ahead or a person somewhere or wondering when she's going to go nuts you are not relaxed, so how could she be. You need to walk calmly not clench the leash for dear life hold on it loosely relax your shoulders and breathe. Try not to think about walking think about something happy. You need to bond with her. To me doesn't sound like you have bonded with her or really care much for her.

Defiantly you should get her into training with a very experienced trainer and stick with it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So here's what I'm gathering...

She's pretty much just dog aggressive? Or does she have problems with strange people as well? The last thing you need is to introduce another dog...no matter what size. They'll probably just fight with each other and you'll end up with more work than you originally wanted because you'll have to keep them separated at all times.

If its just dog aggression...it can easily be handled by avoiding other dogs. But if she's also aggressive towards anyone but your family, that's a bit more questionable.

I think you need to accept the fact that she will never be a "normal" dog. You won't be able to walk her, you won't be able to take her places, you won't be able to do regular dog things with her. It's disappointing for you, but I'm telling you she won't mind. She'll live a sheltered life (compared to other dogs) but its the only way to really protect her. And in that life you'll just have to train her and give her stimulation through work rather than walks/hikes/things of that nature.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Threads like this are hard for me because I believe you do genuinely have her best interests at heart and want to do what is right but personally, based on the behavior you described when you got the puppy, I would have returned it and walked away right then. Whether or not the breeder owes you a refund depends on your contract or purchase agreement. In the US, most breeders do not provide refunds. Some will replace the animal but often this is more for genetic health conditions that are easier to evaluate and quantify. I do believe that this dog's behavior is genetic but the extent to which the breeder is responsible really depends on your original agreement with the breeder.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks Leisje, we have really tried with her. I don't think she has completely bonded with us. Although she is loving towards all of us I just feel there is something missing. Do you think getting her at 4 months could make that much difference. All my other dogs I've had from 9 weeks and felt strong bonds with them.

I did want to leave her at the breeders but my husband wanted to give her until she was 2 and re-assess her then. I knew back then that she would never be right. Not sure what to do now am quite depressed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Basha said:


> Thanks Leisje, we have really tried with her. I don't think she has completely bonded with us. Although she is loving towards all of us I just feel there is something missing. Do you think getting her at 4 months could make that much difference. All my other dogs I've had from 9 weeks and felt strong bonds with them.
> 
> I did want to leave her at the breeders but my husband wanted to give her until she was 2 and re-assess her then. I knew back then that she would never be right. Not sure what to do now am quite depressed.


No...the 2 month difference didn't matter. She's genetically off. She sounds very very bonded to you guys...if she doesn't react towards you or your family it means she accepts them as her own. Dogs are extremely impressionable when they're young. This dog didn't know any different...it went from the breeder to you so her life didn't "change" a few times in that period. Some dogs will get a home...get returned...and then find another home within that short time, and still be fine.

I think you need to stop looking for a reason as to why this is happening. It's happening because her genetics are off...plain and simple. There is nothing you could've done to make her a normal dog. More than likely, there is nothing ANYONE could've done to make her a normal dog. Other people just might've been more prepared (due to experience) to deal with her issues from an earlier age.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Threads like this are hard for me because I believe you do genuinely have her best interests at heart and want to do what is right but personally, based on the behavior you described when you got the puppy, I would have returned it and walked away right then. Whether or not the breeder owes you a refund depends on your contract or purchase agreement. In the US, most breeders do not provide refunds. Some will replace the animal but often this is more for genetic health conditions that are easier to evaluate and quantify. I do believe that this dog's behavior is genetic but the extent to which the breeder is responsible really depends on your original agreement with the breeder.


And that's IF it's a reputable breeder, and there's a contract.

This breeder sounds like a total nutjob. And shocking to think that a veterinarian could be such a horrendous example of a BYB. 


OP, my heart breaks for you. It's evident how much you love the dog and have her best interest at heart. There is nothing you did wrong or could have done... some dogs are just wired wrong.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Basha said:


> Thanks Leisje, we have really tried with her. I don't think she has completely bonded with us. Although she is loving towards all of us I just feel there is something missing. Do you think getting her at 4 months could make that much difference. All my other dogs I've had from 9 weeks and felt strong bonds with them.



No, if she is genetically not sound then it doesn't matter. Of the three dogs I have right now, one I got at 7 weeks, one I got a 1.5 years (and we were this fourth home) and one I got a approx. 1 year (and we were at least her third home but don't know her history since she was in the shelter as a stray). I have the strongest attachment to the one I got the oldest. My first shepherd I got at 3.5 years and she was totally devoted to me and dependent on me (softer dog, weaker nerves). Last fall I got an 11 year old dog off Craigslist and would have kept him if I hadn't had an amazing applicant available. He lives on their farm like he owns the place and was born there despite being adopted at age 11. Tons of people get rescue dogs or adult dogs that do not freeze and refuse to walk, or show fear aggression. The dog is what it is.


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

I respectively disagree with this. The 4 year old GSD that I rescued was viscously aggressive with men when I got him couldn't be within eye sight no matter how far they were he then got attacked by a pitt/mastiff not long after I had him after that he was really aggressive with other dogs no matter how little or big. He was also fear aggressive with bikes. He is complely over his men aggressive he will let anyone pet him in stores or at the the park. I take him to the dog park he loves it and we can walk right next to bikes now. It has taken a ton of work!! But it is possible. We are still working on walking past other dogs on walks without getting frustrated, because I don't like him to meet dogs on leash. The dog depends on alot of what energy you are feeding him. If you really believe he can't do it or your afraid then no it wont work out.

I have learned a lot from my boy and how he feeds of me and that not all dogs learn the same and learned not to compare him to other dogs.





martemchik said:


> So here's what I'm gathering...
> 
> She's pretty much just dog aggressive? Or does she have problems with strange people as well? The last thing you need is to introduce another dog...no matter what size. They'll probably just fight with each other and you'll end up with more work than you originally wanted because you'll have to keep them separated at all times.
> 
> ...


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Basha said:


> Although she is loving towards all of us I just feel there is something missing. Do you think getting her at 4 months could make that much difference. All my other dogs I've had from 9 weeks and felt strong bonds with them.


Nope, it's not the age. To echo what everyone else has said, it's the genes.

My Pongu is completely insane. Very fearful, formerly fear aggressive (we managed to mostly get rid of that, at least), has OCD, self-mutilates if I take him off Prozac, etc. etc.

It's all genes, and unfortunately guarding breeds like the GSD tend to be particularly prone to fear and fear aggression problems. I got Pongu at 4 months old and he was messed up then, I was just too naive to understand what I was seeing or realize how intractable the problem would be. Since then I've had nearly two dozen adult and adolescent foster dogs, and not one of them has had anything like the problems Pongu does. They've all been wonderful dogs, and they have gone on to homes with novice owners and done just fine and bonded beautifully.

IMO it is possible to improve a fearful dog's behavior and anxiety -- sometimes by a lot -- but it's a huge undertaking and it'll never really be fixed, and your dog will never be entirely reliable under stress. I am willing to accept that with Pongu because we don't have kids and never will, but if I had (or wanted) children in the family, I might feel very differently.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. It really sucks.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

frillint1 said:


> I respectively disagree with this. The 4 year old GSD that I rescued was viscously aggressive with men when I got him couldn't be within eye sight no matter how far they were he then got attacked by a pitt/mastiff not long after I had him after that he was really aggressive with other dogs no matter how little or big. He was also fear aggressive with bikes. He is complely over his men aggressive he will let anyone pet him in stores or at the the park. I take him to the dog park he loves it and we can walk right next to bikes now. It has taken a ton of work!! But it is possible. We are still working on walking past other dogs on walks without getting frustrated, because I don't like him to meet dogs on leash. The dog depends on alot of what energy you are feeding him. If you really believe he can't do it or your afraid then no it wont work out.
> 
> I have learned a lot from my boy and how he feeds of me and that not all dogs learn the same and learned not to compare him to other dogs.


You also adopted him at 4 years old and not at 4 months old. His aggressive tendencies might be because of the way he was raised, the environment around him, and probably not from genetics.

The OP's dog...at 4 months old...didn't want to walk on pavement and would just freeze up. She would also run and hide under a car in order to AVOID the world around her. Two completely different things. You can not make a dog not fearful of the whole world...you can however work past fears that have been developed because of someone else's mistakes.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

this breaks my heart. I do feel you have the best interest and maybe it is time to rehome the pup. I am sure she's feeding off your insecurities about her...and that's nothing wrong on your part. 
Please don't give her up to just anybody though..contact a GSD rescue and let them help you


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## frillint1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Mine was 4 years of physical and mental abuse. I got him from the family not a shelter I was told his story of being beat, slammed between the door, locked in the bathroom in his own feces. When I got him I couldn't train him because he would in fact shut down, shake, and pee on him self then he wouldstarts go hideto in thea bath tubtonight under the bedhay anywhere away. He wasis afraid of soda bottles, signs outside, hats andand fast movements. Sometimes evenhe get afraid of histhe food bowland or anythingI just random that didnt make sensea and we are over all of that. His dad was in the same home and completely opposite of what a GSD should be, so I believe mine is a mix of bad genetics and severe abuse, so yes I still disagree. My main point of telling my story was that it takes time, consistently, patience, and good energy and that that's can change and that you could take him places and not to give up. Never say never.




martemchik said:


> You also adopted him at 4 years old and not at 4 months old. His aggressive tendencies might be because of the way he was raised, the environment around him, and probably not from genetics.
> 
> The OP's dog...at 4 months old...didn't want to walk on pavement and would just freeze up. She would also run and hide under a car in order to AVOID the world around her. Two completely different things. You can not make a dog not fearful of the whole world...you can however work past fears that have been developed because of someone else's mistakes.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks Merciel and to everyone for your advice and support. It really has taken a lot out of us as a family. It's been good to get it off my chest. Now I know it's genetic I feel a bit easier. I have looked up a club which I will go to and let you all know what they think. She is usually pretty good around GSDs and their owners as they are usually calm and don't go up to her... haha


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are going through this. 

Just a few points:

1. Take her out with you on a muzzle. Bad people don't trust big dogs, and they don't trust muzzles either. You can slip a muzzle off in a heart beat, if every you felt it necessary. She will still be a good deterrant. This dog should never be trained as a protection or attack dog.

2. How you got the dog, where you got the dog from, when you got the dog -- all of that is no longer relevant. I think that we sometimes get tied up with why a dog is the way they are, and beyond a note in your mind about it, it really doesn't matter. The breeder of this dog is not going to help. That sucks, but that is the way it is. Now you have to get past all that and decide if there is enough you and your family like about this dog to give her a life with you. It may not be the life you envisioned when you decided to get a GSD, but this is the dog you have, and at this point, you really have a tough decision to make. You will either have to alter your idea of what having this kind of dog means and commit to managing the dog, working with a traininer and being open to what they tell you to try, and accepting her for who she is, or you will need to put her down, unless you can find someone willing and able to cope with her, and those people are generally few and far between. 

3. I think that your dog can gain confidence to a point, and relax more on walks, but the best thing that you can do is to have no expectations for this. And simply try to understand her better so you can manage her -- a good trainer can help with this. When is it that she lashes out? Management may mean adjusting your path before you reach the point where she is overwhelmed. 

I guess my point is not to try to make the dog who you want her to be, but to see her for who she is. Assess the whole dog, good and bad, and decide what you can live with, what you can't live with, and what you can manage. Note what she is good at, and find lots of reasons to praise her for those things you like and she does well. Manage her so that she does not hurt any person or any dog, and if that means using a muzzle, then it is not the end of the world. 

I really do not believe forcing a dog to work through problems is always the best avenue to travel down. A day or two ago, I read on a thread someone saying they could not get the dog to stop sniffing the ground. Her response was to take up tracking. Not all the time, but often, when we look for what the dog is most comfortable with, likes to do, and then we make it a point to encourage that, praise that, work on that, the dog's bond with us improves, the dog's confidence improves, and that will be evident in other situations as well. 

Good luck in whatever you try to do. If you do choose to put this dog down, don't let anyone give you any grief over it. It is a terribly hard decision to make, and it will bother you regardless of whether it was the only right decision or not. You have kids and she seems good with them, what about your kids' friends? Do you separate the dog, or does she do fine when she is in your home regardless to who is present? I guess the question is there that if you feel that you kids' friends might be in danger, or that your kids cannot have friends over because of your dog, well that is just another part of the whole picture that you have to look at.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply Selzer. I have a lot to go on now. I will sit down this evening and give it some careful thought. 

She is perhaps even worse at home. My brother can't go near her even after seeing her regularly. One of my daughter's friends who lives nearby is no problem she treats her the same as us - but pretty much everyone else she will snap at if they move suddenly or look at her. If people come around I have to lock her in a utility room just in case especially new friends of the children. She did pin a three year old down once before we knew her capability. She was on a lead though.


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## Basha (Jun 5, 2013)

thanks Martemchick you make a lot of sense.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

please don't think this fear aggression will ever go away. it will not, what it is is manageable with the right training and alot of work and patience. you can never trust a genetically nervy sharp fearful dog.......ever.......ask yourself if your ready for a lifetime of management and protecting a dog that should not make any of her own decisions....


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i managed a fear aggressive gsd for 8 years. when people came over that she wasnt good with she was locked away. the management was the hardest part, but after a bit it was more routine then anything. i didnt take her out in public except for vet visits. we played in the yard and hiked in the woods behind my old house as no one was ever there. she was more relaxed staying home then going out in public. if your dog is stressed in public then leave her home, play games with her in your yard and that will help her not be stressed to a degree. i understand what you are going thru as i went thru it as well.. its a hard choice to make, management or euthanization. i chose management only because she was good with my family and that was good enough for me.. everyone has their own decision to make.. think carefully about both and then make your decision. do not rehome your dog, as besides that its not fair to give someone else your dogs issues its not fair to the dog either, and should she hurt someone you can be sued.. i never regretted managing my gsd, she had a great quality of life staying home playing in the yard and playing with rufus. once i stopped taking her out in public she relaxed alot more.. i made sure to keep her busy at home and in the yard so she was happy

and yes, you cant fix genetics, only manage it. if anyone tells you they can fix the genetic issues RUN away as fast as you can..

you can also get the book "help for your fearful dog" by nicole wilde on amazon.com its a great book for dogs with fear issues


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## datboggs (May 9, 2010)

"She did pin a three year old down once before we knew her capability. She was on a lead though."

I have read over this entire thread (so much great advice); however this wasn't really mentioned along the way. This seems like the tipping point for me, your dog seems extremely dangerous to children. I do not think you are prepared for the horror that might unfold in your household or neighborhood.

Regards,

Derrick


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Please do not make a decision to put your dog to sleep based solely on feedback from this board. Seek out people experienced in rescue and the breed to get an in-person evaluation and put a plan together with them. 

You would be surprised what people with experience can offer and what people are willing to take on to help the dog.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i did not hide my shy sharp dog from public, i slowly desensatized him and worked hard in training so he could go out and enjoy things. i would not do this until you have had a chance to work with a professional and are ready for it in small doses. i think its important to work on this so the dog can gain some confidence and enjoy life to the best of what they are capable of. in training you will find out what the limitations are and work from that. i can go anywhere in public with my dog i control all situations but he is not scared. through working sports like tracking, agility he has gained confidence and also has trust in me as his handler/owner........again, it took alot of time, some frustrating moments in the beginning but he is now an awesome tracker and loves it. i can now sit back and enjoy the fruits of my labor and enjoy that he is enjoying his life and has a purpose besides being fearful. the fear might creep up every so often and will be something i'll have to watch, but its under control before it becomes a real issue because i have learned his signals and how to handle it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, get a trainer/behaviorist and have them assess your dog. 

The pinning of the three year old is a tipping point for me, only exactly opposite than the previous poster. Cujo held a toddler down once when he was a little more than two. He was not accustomed to children at the time. He did not hurt the toddler. And, he became a baby-dog, excellent with my four nieces, their ages being from under 1 through six years old, when he passed on at almost 8 years old. 

If the dog did not hurt the toddler, did not bite the toddler, then he/she has show inhibition, and he is not necessarily a danger to the neighborhood etc. She is definitely giving some signals that she is not comfortable in the situations she is in, and these should not be ignored. But so far there really hasn't been an indication that the dog is totally unmanageable or a danger to society -- hopeless. 

Evenso, everyone has a different amount that they can manage. And you are so far the only one, your family anyway, that has actually seen the dog, so you know a lot more than we do about your dog, yourself, and your situation. And I wouldn't make ANY life or death decisions based only on what we say here.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

also agree for you not to make any life lasting decisions with the dog at this time. get the dog evaluated think long and hard, and understand the training and time commitment your in for to get this dog to a better place. i also think its possible to work with her. she needs direction and a leader and lots of positive socialization and training.....


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## datboggs (May 9, 2010)

Selzer,

Glad Cujo turned out to be a great family dog, that outcome is not the norm for most people nor would they tolerate a GSD pinning a small child with aggression. Did you read the rest of that post about the dog snapping at anyone for moving or looking at the it in the house? I think until many milestones have been achieved with this animal a large amount of caution needs to be a priority.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

datboggs said:


> Selzer,
> 
> Glad Cujo turned out to be a great family dog, that outcome is not the norm for most people nor would they tolerate a GSD pinning a small child with aggression. Did you read the rest of that post about the dog snapping at anyone for moving or looking at the it in the house? I think until many milestones have been achieved with this animal a large amount of caution needs to be a priority.


If the GSD pinned the small child with aggression, then the child would have made a trip to the ER. These dogs are way fast. If the dog wanted to hurt the child, it would have. 

I am just saying I have seen a GSD pin a small child and that the dog became an excellent dog with babies and small children. And my parents never took him to classes or consulted a behaviorist or trainer. We are talking about too old retired sick people, living alone with a GSD. 

Actually, the good news about this dog is that the owner is seeking help BEFORE the dog has actually committed a major transgression. Which means the owner is willing to see that the dog needs work. That puts her heads and shoulders over top of the next person who has a dog that might bite. 

I did read about the snapping. Snapping is again a warning. It is loud and clear -- I do NOT want to bite you, I am uncomfortable with whatever you are doing. 

I am saying, don't ignore the warnings that are there, get help, get the dog assessed. Change your approach, up your leadership, change what and how you train.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

frillint1 said:


> I respectively disagree with this.



Thats the problem, you got a fearful adult dog and who knows WHY the fear. Maybe men beat him. Maybe it was nurture and NOT nature. But fact of the matter is when a pup is born fear aggressive and continues to develop like this dog has - to fearful to even walk outside, actively attacking people - that's genetic and that level of fear can NEVER be fixed. You can train many of these dogs to be manageable and obedient to you, but the fear will ALWAYS be there and they can never be 100% trusted. To think otherwise with a puppy starting that young is almost naive and very wishful thinking.
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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

frillint1 said:


> Mine was 4 years of physical and mental abuse. I got him from the family not a shelter I was told his story of being beat, slammed between the door, locked in the bathroom in his own feces. When I got him I couldn't train him because he would in fact shut down, shake, and pee on him self then he wouldstarts go hideto in thea bath tubtonight under the bedhay anywhere away. He wasis afraid of soda bottles, signs outside, hats andand fast movements. Sometimes evenhe get afraid of histhe food bowland or anythingI just random that didnt make sensea and we are over all of that. His dad was in the same home and completely opposite of what a GSD should be, so I believe mine is a mix of bad genetics and severe abuse, so yes I still disagree. My main point of telling my story was that it takes time, consistently, patience, and good energy and that that's can change and that you could take him places and not to give up. Never say never.


This proves my point. Your dog was fearful from neglect and abuse. Once in a calm comforting environment it correct. This dog was raised in a calm collected environment and is STILL fear aggressive and actively lashing out.

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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

usually a fairly stable dog coming from neglect to the right home can overcome quite nicely, so, genetics must have gone along with the abusive situation.

my FA dog was 8 weeks old when i got him so no abusive stuff happened to him, he was that way genetically. thankfully he's progressed and isn't so bad that he's scared to go anywhere and lives a pretty normal life. although as said it will always be there.............


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