# What would you prefer



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! If you know your GSD is pure bred, you have both your male and female cert. for hips and elbows, are very healthy and void of any and all genetic deformities or diseases, why should you not breed them?

I see way to often these "pedigreed" dogs having so many health issues, so they may be papered and registered, doesn't give those owners the right to breed them over people who have impeccably healthy animals who would make very healthy offspring which would lead to future generations of healthy GSD's! 

So what would you prefer, getting a GSD who has papers who does not have health certs? Or getting a healthy pup without papers from a breeder who's only focus is the health and well being of their puppies?


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Neither.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

So how would I KNOW my dog is purebred if I don't have the pedigrees??

I've fostered many litters where the puppies looked NOTHING like the mom or dad (shelter dogs).

Just because two dogs LOOK like German Shepherds doesn't mean they are PUREBRED German Shepherds.

And by having the pedigree (and papers) I can trace the puppy's lineage and see for myself what health problems may have occurred.

You can have a sire and dam that are both OFA Excellent throw an entire litter of dysplastic puppies because in their background was a bunch of dysplastic dogs.

Genetics doesn't JUST come from the direct parents. It carries through the lines.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Neither. 

I want a puppy out of registered dogs with health certs and titles.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would go with the dog with papers, sorry. I can look back at what produced the dog with papers. Also, there is usually a reason why a dog certain to be purebred does not have papers:

1. The dog or one of its parents was sold on a limited registration. A breeder somewhere sold that dog with the condition that it not be bred. Often times people take a dog with a fault on a limited registration, and for less money and promise not to breed the dog. I do not like to condone such dishonesty with my money.

2. The owner of the dog or the dog's ancestors have been suspended, temporarily or permanently from the breed club. You have to go some to get suspended. Either you have to forge paperwork, or you have to run a filthy, over crowded, and abusive puppy mill. There has to be a reason for the AKC to choose to discard you and all the money you provide them directly or indirectly with registrations. I do not want to give my money to people like that. 

3. People who haven't got the first clue about dog breeding, suddenly discovered that there pet dog might be a gold mine. They got the dog without any papers because they didn't know anything about papers, and did not care about them. But now they want to breed their dog, and the bitch ain't spayed, so... They bought their pet dog without consideration about breeding, so their knowledge of the lines and genetics and what need to do in the way of breeding, whelping, and raising a litter are negligible. They do not know how closely the sire is bred to the dam. They have no clue. I don't want my money to go to these people either.


----------



## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

Never had a dog with papers. We have always had rescues. Since I neither want to show or breed, it's not that big of a deal for me. I want a healthy dog, but I believe papers or certifications cannot always guarantee a completely disease free dog.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> Neither.
> 
> I want a puppy out of registered dogs with health certs and titles.


I'm an "uppiedy up" that agrees with you GatorDog

Now, I will sit back and watch this thread burn.


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> I would go with the dog with papers, sorry. I can look back at what produced the dog with papers. Also, there is usually a reason why a dog certain to be purebred does not have papers:
> 
> 1. The dog or one of its parents was sold on a limited registration. A breeder somewhere sold that dog with the condition that it not be bred. Often times people take a dog with a fault on a limited registration, and for less money and promise not to breed the dog. I do not like to condone such dishonesty with my money.
> 
> ...


This about covers it all!! :thumbup: People who are breeding without papers are being totally irresponsible. The breed, as a whole, suffers because of this. There are TONS of pups and dogs out there right now in rescues and shelters that don't have papers. I'm sure most of them are really great dogs. When you breed, you're responsible for those lives that you have chosen to create. Dogs have a greater chance at having a bad life when they're bred by people who don't care about papers, pedigrees, etc. The people that buy those type of dogs are more likely to not have the knowledge or the resources to care for them. Especially when you're taking about a GSD, who isn't a "take it home and house break it and you're done" type of dog... I think the breeding of these dogs should be taken VERY seriously. Papers show what dogs are back there. Those traits (good and bad) can pop up in pups. Health problems included. So you having a healthy female doesn't mean she'll have healthy pups or stable pups... even bred to a healthy, stable male. If it were only that easy....


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Papers are for more than status. They are for more than proving a dog is purebred, though that is one of their advantages.

They are a blueprint for the genetic history of the dog. Knowing the dog's pedigree allows one to research the health and temperament of it's ancestors and other close relatives. This is imperative for making good breeding decisions. Many problems, both health and otherwise, are polygenic and recessive, meaning that they can be hidden in an individual dog in the sense that that dog does not express those problems, but the genetics for those problems are still there and may well come out in offspring. Researching the pedigree will provide insight into what problems exist in the line, and thus could possibly exist in the individual dog.

Without papers, you can't know the pedigree. Without knowing the pedigree, you can't learn the genetics of the bloodline and relatives, which provides important insight into what the dog might produce.

Since there are plenty of dogs being bred who have BOTH health certs (and performance titles proving temperament) as well as papers and documented pedigree, my answer to your question is neither. There is no reason for anyone to settle for a pup from unpapered, and thus of unknown heritage and bloodline parents, or for a pup from untested parents.


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Luckily we are not forced to choose between those two lacking options! Buy from breeders that train/show/title their dogs in their particular venue, have a focused breeding plan, know the bloodlines and pedigrees, health/temperament test the breeding dogs, raise their dogs with care and compassion and have registrations for their breeding dogs.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

my vote is neither as well, but if I HAD to choose it would be the reg'd dog.


----------



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

I dont want anyone to get me wrong here... I myself go for dogs who are papered, but also are cert. for health, but there are lots of breeders who's dogs are papered but they could care less about the health...


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Buying a breed with known issues has it's risks no matter what

You LIMIT those risks by buying from a breeder with dogs that are health certified and temperament tested whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, etc were all certified and tested as well

Not to mention if something does go wrong there are guarantees that most breeders will give you that last two years or longer. Also, if there's any issues you don't have to worry about rehoming as the breeder will take it back. The lifelong commitment and help a good breeder supplies is just as beneficial as the dog itself

To me buying from a responsible breeder makes me feel better and safer for my own benefit and the dogs, not superior to those who don't. I will never buy from a BYB, puppymill, or petstore. I will either buy from a responsible breeder or rescue


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

mandiah89 said:


> I dont want anyone to get me wrong here... I myself go for dogs who are papered, but also are cert. for health, but there are lots of breeders who's dogs are papered but they could care less about the health...


And those people are just as irresponsible as the people breeding without registration papers. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Nice to know that I'm an "uppiedy up".  I don't care for either of the two choices you've laid out. If I'm buying a dog, whether another GSD, a Doberman, or any other breed (even a Chihuahua), I'd want one from registered, titled, and health tested parents. 

I've frequently noticed that puppy sellers who say "papers don't matter" or "titles don't matter" usually don't do anything with their dogs other than breeding them.


----------



## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

How about a dog with a long pedigree with no papers? I have Xerxes pedigree but because of some dispute with the AKC with his mother's mother, I can't register him.


----------



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

If I were purchasing a puppy,I would say that I would choose neither. If it were a dog that was 'free' then I would give it a home.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Neither. The world is full of unwanted dogs. Why add to the problem?


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Neither. I wouldn't support either breeder-why not rescue a healthy adult if you can't get papers anyway. You can even get the dog's hips x-rayed first


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think you'd have to look long and hard for a breeder that doesn't have papers on his dogs but does all those health checks. Someone that doesn't care enough to have a pedigree on the dogs they're producing/using and yet they'll spend hundreds of dollars in order to get their hips certified and their DNA is clear of other known issues? Won't happen...

What's the point in breeding a dog without papers? It's kind of saying that the dog is so great...and amazing...although it hasn't been trialed or titled, that it needs to be bred and pass on its DNA over the 1000s of other dogs out there that are papered and titled. How does someone breeding a dog without papers know that their dog is genetically and physiologically superior to its peers and should be bred? They don't!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In my opinion, papers are a bare minimum. If you can't register the dog, then don't breed him. What dispute with the AKC? The AKC, will revoke a litter's registration in some cases. If you read the review they would say what happened on their discipline and oversite committee. It sounds complicated though. Someone would have to send in DNA I think and the sire would have had to have been DNA'd, and I don't know if there is an appeal process in that. If that was the case, then your pedigree might not be correct. 

Another dispute might be that your dog's dam's breeder did not follow through with her agreement to the stud owner. The stud owner might have refused to register for lack of payment. If that is the case then the dam's owner was dishonest and sold dogs that she could not register and those dogs simply should not be bred. The owner of the stud deserves compensation, and, maybe they really are not the owner of the stud used. Who knows? Pedigree is in question. 

See here's the thing, if you rescue or buy a puppy without papers, it is a pet. It is probably the result of someone breeding who shouldn't have been breeding. If you breed that dog, then you are breeding when you shouldn't be, and the only owners for the puppies you produce will be those who really do not mind if people have been dishonest or disreputable along the way.


----------



## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

I used to think the same way about those "uppity up" people, but now I understand more about breeding and breeders and o will drop appropriate money for a well pedigreed/papered/health guaranteed puppy. Since I got Gus from a BYB I will be doing a health check for hips/elbows after 2 yrs because I don't have a pedigree to seek advice on I have no idea on what is even possible to come up. And now instead of saying they're uppity up I'd say they're well informed and responsible. 

Plus, I THINK it would be easier to handle a dog with a breed health issue than one with a temperament issue. I don't know that from experience but I just feel it would seem that way. I could very well be wrong.


----------



## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

Well, look at it this way. I have my mother's face and my father's temper. Anyone who knows the three of us notices that, and can see where they came from. But I also have my grandmother's hair color and my grandfather's depression. If you'd only seen my parents, you wouldn't know that these things were in my background. They may be possible chance outcomes of any "human breeding," but knowing that they are there in the genetics, you can see that the chance of passing these things on is greater.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You have a lot to learn, my friend.



mandiah89 said:


> Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! ?


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I would also say neither. I have a purebred AKC registered dog and one of the best things about him is his perfect health (knock wood lol). He has never had a health issue in the three plus years he has been with us.

And knowing how easy it is to get a dog who has temperament issues, I want a breeder who can study a pedigree and know the lines generations back and see the potential issues and benefits in any particular breeding. This requires papers or a whole heck of a lot of trust that the second party in the breeding is being honest about his or her dog.


----------



## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Two dogs might have healthy hips and elbows themselves but if I didn't see papers there's no way of me knowing that they were relatives or something...I'd have to say neither too, sorry.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would prefer the healthy pup/dog. Papers do not mean anything to me, I have had only one dog in my life that has had papers and I don't even know where they are. I also don't think that just anyone should breed. Most of the time I don't even understand why someone would want to be responsible for finding suitable homes for 10 pups. I could never do it.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

uppitty shows strong character. leader of the pack.
individualism. self thinker. "lives strong".



Courtney said:


> I'm an >>>> "uppiedy up" <<<<
> 
> that agrees with you GatorDog
> 
> Now, I will sit back and watch this thread burn.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

getting a pup with papers from titled parents, proven
parents helps with not watering down the breed.


----------



## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Wow. I guess I'm uppity. I want papers and certifications. Wouldn't buy a pup from anyone without them...and without checking into breeder history or experience with the breed.


----------



## Vagus (Oct 7, 2012)

It is absolutely true that not every breeder who has papers on their dogs is necessarily a good breeder, but it still gave me a place to start! Breeding dogs just because they are 'purebred' is a terrible reason to breed, whether done by a registered breeder or not.

There should be a goal in mind, with the breeder adding and removing dogs from their breeding programmes for the sake of this goal. Different kennels want different levels of drive, trainabilty, structure and so on. Every good breeder wants a healthy dog.

When searching for my pup, not a single unregistered breeder health tested their dogs! No hip/elbow scores. No titles (how enthusiastic can he really be about the breed?).

All they said about the parents would be something like "good temperaments, vet says their hips are ok" .. ??? If you could tell how good a dogs hips are just by looking at them, why do responsible breeders bother with x-rays and analysis by specialised practitioners?

So much lurks in genetic history. Good kennels keep track of their lines, not to be fancy or hoity toity or uppidy up. They do it, because they want to ensure that future puppies do not suffer a lifetime of weak nerves, unbalanced structure and poor health. The spend thousands of dollars, for very little return (at least mine did), because the goal is not cash - it is healthy puppies, who will grow into fantastic adults with improvements on their own parents. Some breeders even have contracts with new owners, stating that if you are no longer able to care for the new puppy at any point in its lifetime, you give him or her back! So no shelter, no horror-filled rehoming stories. These dogs are cared for, every step of the way.

What I'm trying to get at is that breeding shouldn't be taken lightly. And many people have shallow, short-sighted motives - registered breeder or not. Papers are useless on a puppy if the parents are not sound. On the flip side, healthy parents do not = healthy kids. Look at any human family. However, a history of healthy, sound dogs provides a bit more reliabilty. And this is where our knowledgable, _ethical, _selfless breeders come in. Many of them are on this forum.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

IMO as a pet owner, papers are worthless. I would go for the health checks but I would prefer those health checks come from a rescue I trust.  So many dogs in shelters.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Papers are for more than status. They are for more than proving a dog is purebred, though that is one of their advantages.
> 
> They are a blueprint for the genetic history of the dog. Knowing the dog's pedigree allows one to research the health and temperament of it's ancestors and other close relatives. This is imperative for making good breeding decisions. Many problems, both health and otherwise, are polygenic and recessive, meaning that they can be hidden in an individual dog in the sense that that dog does not express those problems, but the genetics for those problems are still there and may well come out in offspring. Researching the pedigree will provide insight into what problems exist in the line, and thus could possibly exist in the individual dog.
> 
> ...


This.


----------



## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

mandiah89 said:


> Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! If you know your GSD is pure bred, you have both your male and female cert. for hips and elbows, are very healthy and void of any and all genetic deformities or diseases, why should you not breed them?
> 
> Ok, so you got x-rays of YOUR dog. What about it's parents, grandparents, siblings, half siblings, aunts, uncles, etc? Without the papers you can't research that. Who cares if you dog is OFA good, if all its other tested relatives failed or if only one or two of them passed out of 20+? The depth of pedigree is just as important as the immediate parent. Many genetic diseases are caused by recessive genes that don't present in the current animal, but that animal may be a carrier, and if bred to another carrier could produce affected animals. By knowing the propensity for certain issues in the bloodline you can make breeding decisions to help avoid creating it.
> 
> ...


Another point you may want to know is that in Canada it is ILLEGAL to sell an animal as purebred without registration papers from an organization incorporated under the Animal Pedigree Act. If a "breeder" does this it is fraud. In this country, if the puppy does not have papers it is legally not purebred, that's why I always want to ask the people who post "Is my puppy purebred" threads if they have papers because on this side of the border, no papers, no purebred.

*It is also illegal to sell the papers ie puppy w/o papers $300, w/ $350*


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Neither-I would consider an unpapered dog-but in that case I would go for a rescue most likely


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If you don't care about papers, rescue. That is a very valid option for people who only want a good pet and have no interest in the genetics of the dog, but at least you are putting money in the hands of people helping against the problem, not people who actually ARE the problem.

Papers are worthless... that is an absolute truth.
The paper in which the Bible, the Constitution and the classics is written is only good to set fire on, it's the knowledge within the words on those papers what is worth. Don't say something has no value only because you don't know how to read it. Chinese characters are gibberish to me, yet maybe I'm missing the_ Lún Yǔ_ on my hands...


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Catu said:


> If you don't care about papers, rescue. That is a very valid option for people who only want a good pet and have no interest in the genetics of the dog, but at least you are putting money in the hands of people helping against the problem, not people who actually ARE the problem.
> 
> Papers are worthless... that is an absolute truth.
> The paper in which the Bible, the Constitution and the classics is written is only good to set fire on, it's the knowledge within the words on those papers what is worth. Don't say something has no value only because you don't know how to read it. Chinese characters are gibberish to me, yet maybe I'm missing the_ Lún Yǔon_ my hands...


Cato, I always appreciate the way in which you explain your point. Thank you


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Papers themselves don't have much meaning. For instance the AKC is just a registry to keep track of all the paperwork with certain rules and regulations. But they themselves have nothing to do with health or temperament of the dogs they register. If I have a GSD pup from 2 registered GSD parent dogs, and that pup is toothless, with bad hips and elbows, and blind..... unless the breeders forbade it with a limited registry (which a RESPONSIBLE breeder would along with never doing a repeat breeding of the parent dogs...) I could not only register my poor pup but BREED it and register the puppies!

My money is only going to 'responsible' breeders who actually use the information included in the registrys. Research is much easier when you can look at the parent dogs and then find out their temperment and associated with their lines. It's not just about the healthy happy dog you are looking at. If you don't do the research you wouldn't get know the additional GENETIC information that all the other littermates DID have issues that are also included in the one you are looking at and can get passed on.

So I choose to save my money, find a 'responsible' breeder and support their goals and breeding program with my cash. Otherwise, if I'm going for a crap shoot and can't afford a responsible breeder, than my crap shoot will take place by visiting shelters and rescues and saving a dog. Rather than paying $500 to support and allow an either uniformed or ignorant breeder to CONTINUE to add to the over population of dogs in the USA. Breeders that take the money and never want to hear from you again.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

As the owner of a working dog, I would want to know the genetic background if I was getting a puppy. There have been some instances where I would consider an unpapered dog IF I personally knew and trusted the breeder and the pedigree was known, but that would be rare. I would also want to know if that dog was unpapered due to import documentation issues or due to someone wanting to breed a dog on limited registration as I fully support that structure as the only control good breeders have only their lines since domestic registries put no constraints on breedworthiness.

*If it was an adult or young adult all I would care about is health clearances and working ability. *

Titles-I would hope the breeding stock has them but I would also not reject a dog when dogs without working titles but with working certifications were included in the pedigree. Also, with the pedigree you can look at the achievements of uncles and aunts and that is also reassuring to see a consistency of the breeding program at meeting requirements for producing suitable dogs.

The term "uppity" is frustrating to me. If a dog is purebred, concerns about inbreeding and the possibility for genetic issues should be of serious concern. Good breeders research the lines and know which dogs bring what to the table good and bad. I would prefer a breeder subject their stock to independent objective review (the frustration I face even with working certified dogs is you are on your own at conformation assessments-and the titles (in my case IRO) that can allow you to get a koer rating still may not be realistic goals for many to spend time acquiring) Backyard breeders do not do any of this.


----------



## rangersdad (Sep 20, 2012)

Wow! I knew this one would be a fireball when I read the tag line! I purchased a dog without papers (yup byb) out of ignorance. I met the parents and saw them running around the yard apparently healthy. After reading many threads on this forum I've seen how fortunate I was to get a good dog! He's not the brightest crayon in the box and I certainly wouldn't breed him. I can see both sides of the argument-people who are very concerned about the breed integrity and those who may not be in a financial position to put the money into the pedigreed dogs with no intention of breeding/showing (that would be me unfortunately). All in all, I lean toward breeders with pedigreed dogs who's bloodlines are known.


----------



## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

To answer the OP question:
I wouldn't buy a pup from EITHER breeder.


For me to buy a pup, it (parents) must have:
a) all appropriate health clearances

b) at least a minimum of titles which give an independent evaluation that the dog is conformationally, tempramentally, and work ability sound.

c) both of the above for several generations


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

In addition to the other points, and one thing that I never hear mentioned... if you don't have papers on your dog but you believe it's purebred, it's entirely possible that the dog you breed that dog to is your dog's close relative. What if you're breeding your dog to her brother or uncle? You just *don't* know!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If those were my only two choices, I'd rescue a dog, and use the money I saved for s/n and other health things for my new rescued dog


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I've got a rescue dog, so I've never dealt with this, but if these were my options then I would pick neither. Having had a dog that is poorly bred (I'm assuming based on the things I observe about her) I would never pay a breeder for a dog that they can't prove. There's always that chance of getting that random dog that against all the odds is still a nervy, unhealthy, pup, but the odds are so much in your favor if you go with a breeder who knows what they're doing. In the future I want to own my own farm, and when I do I'm gonna get a purebred shepherd to help me herd my sheep, and this dog will come from a well established breeder who proves their dogs and has consistently healthy dogs. If I'm shelling out $1200+ dollars then I want to have the best chance that what I'm getting will be able to do the job I want it to do. Again, not a guarantee for sure, but why stack the deck against yourself. Even if I was just getting it for a pet I'd want the deck stacked in my favor. I would say the same if I was just buying for a pet too. If I'm gonna pay the money then I want the best chance at getting a thoroughly healthy dog.


----------

