# KNPV vs FCI



## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

Hello Everyone!

I just wanted to ask few questions that don't pertain to working line GSD's but hopefully a few of the members here could answer them! 

A member of my DVG club is looking for his next dog (a Malinois or Dutch Shepherd) and has narrowed it down to two different breeders. Either Logan Haus Kennels or Ot Vitosha Kennels.

He seems very indecisive on which kennel to choose from. I was hoping to give him some insight from others who have purchased a pup from either one of these kennels, or who are involved in Schutzhund/PSA.

If you had to pick one of these kennels for IGP/PSA. Which would you pick and why?

(I know this is not the norm for a GSD site but it's the only forum I'm currently active in..so I thought to ask it here).


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

If I was looking to compete at the highest level, I would go with Ivan’s program.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I.B. picks and breeds the type of dog that fits his training program. That is revealing. LHKs breeds non FCI dogs capable of real work as well as sport. Ivan is a celebrity breeder and Mike breeds true working dogs capable of high sport competition. Balbanov is a commercial breeder where LHK’s breeds for the working market and breeds sociable, high drive dogs. There is not necesssarily something wrong with Ivan’s dogs but your won’t see Mike doing a video wearing shades indoors talking about how special his dogs are.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Segment of interview of Gerben Kamphius
CJ : "So what type of breeds do you prefer? GK : Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. CJ : Are pedigree papers important to you? GK : Absolutley not. It is far harder to find the quality of dogs I like from the FCI bloodline dogs. It would be too hard a task to consistantly get the type of dog required for the KNPV program from the pedigreed dogs. CJ : So there is still a big difference between the FCI and the xKNPV dogs? GK : Yes there still is. While most all of the FCI Malinois have an influence of unpedigreed dogs in them, and they have improved a lot, there is still a gap between them. Regardless of what people say, price isn’t the only factor a KNPV guy takes into account when buying a puppy. CJ : What well known KNPV dogs have you had on the suit? GK : Lets see, Arras Pegge, Rudie Pegge, Marko Pegge, Pecco Pegge, Kukays Quatro, Robick Kamps, Ringo Wolterink, and Rico vd Berg to name a few. CJ : Which ones impressed? GK : Well they were all quality dogs, but the hardest, most toughest and extreme dog I ever worked was Rico vd Berg. He was as extreme in every possible trait as a dog could be. Brutal dog. Arras Pegge was the hardest hitting dog I ever had on the suit. Once he even knocked me out he hit that hard. CJ : You seem to breed on a few dogs, namely Rambo Rossum, Duco 2 Seegers, Arno Kleine Schaars and Catro Jansen. What is it about these dogs you like? GK : Rambo Rossum – Rambo always produced good dogs. He is one of the best producers the KNPV ever had. He gave hard, full pushing grips, excellent attackers and sometimes they were not easy to work with. He also gave very short build dogs, that I like. CJ : So he got this from his father Eik? GK : Rambo was a better dog and a better producer than Eik was. Without Rambo, there was no Eik. Duco 2 Seegers – I saw Duco work on a number of occasions. He was a very complete dog. Duco had excellent drives, and retrieving. He was a very tough dog, with a very high pain tolerance. This made him excellent for police work. He was the type of dog you could take him into a bar fight and if someone hit him with a chair or two, he wouldn’t even flinch. He produced this also in his pups. He gave very heavy strong dogs with short coats and big heads. I like his type a lot. He also produced extreme drive for the bitework, and this with his very high tolerances to corrections could make the offspring a bit hard to control in the bitework. Arno Kleine Schaars – A very angry dog, hard hitter, extreme drive and a very big good looking dog. He had so extreme drive he was difficult to train. Super, super police dog, but not so super for the points or sport. Arno produced many dogs like himself. They could be sometimes slower to mature but they were also very big dogs. Sometimes these go hand in hand. He also produced such extreme drive and guarding drive that this could be a problem for the owners. Many young Arnos bit their owners as they tried to approach the decoy or the box they were guarding. Very possessive dogs. Catro Jansen – Catro is behind many of the good Dutchies in the KNPV. He produced good health, good looking dogs and excellent character. He also threw the trait strongly of the high hitting flyers as seen in Arras and Rudie Pegge."


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You also have to consider the specific breeding and what pup he gets. My posts refer to the differences in Ot Vitosha's FCI lines and Loganhaus'es non FCI XMals.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Another consideration is some of the non FCI XMals might not due well in sport due to control issues, especially in PSA. But all the breeds are less than what they once were.


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You also have to consider the specific breeding and what pup he gets. My posts refer to the differences in Ot Vitosha's FCI lines and Loganhaus'es non FCI XMals.


Thanks for all of your responses! They were extremely informative.

From what I've been told I don't think he knows the breedings for either kennel just yet. He said the waitlists for each are almost a year out.

From what I've researched both seem like well run programs. I'm also really amazed how the Dutch don't really look for much conformation in their KNPV lines.

I personally love how they seem to try and find the best working dogs and keep building their lines off that (with not much emphasis on breed types).

Our next club meet is this Friday I'll show him all the responses to this thread. This way he can make an educated decision on what route is best for him.

Thanks again for your responses, I like learning about working lines of all breeds.


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> If I was looking to compete at the highest level, I would go with Ivan’s program.


Thanks for your response! I'll be showing him all the replies this Friday during our club meet. This way he can make an educated decision on which route is best for him.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would add that the best route to a decision can be reached by looking at the program goals for each breeder. What market does each breeder target with his dogs?


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I would add that the best route to a decision can be reached by looking at the program goals for each breeder. What market does each breeder target with his dogs?


From what I've gathered so far from responses/research is LHK seems geared a lot towards LE, Military, and other government agencies (but also sells to civilians for sport). Ot Vitosha seems more for sport and is sold mostly to civilians. Also, it looks like both do an excellent job with breedings/picking a puppies based upon handler experience, & wants/needs. I'll be sure to show him all of the options from the knowledgeable posts I've received so far.

I know this is a little off topic.... I've been reading up a lot on both of their puppy programs the past few days, for someone like me who is getting a working line GSD next year (I've done some OB with other Working Lines). Which puppy program would you recommend? I saw LHK has a reputable puppy imprinting/development course, and Ot Vitosha has a puppy foundation course as well. I'm trying to become a well-rounded handler in IGP and have support from others through my club. My main concern is laying the correct foundation in IGP for my pup when not in the club setting.

Thanks again for your help!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

SemperBlue said:


> Thanks for all of your responses! They were extremely informative...I'm also really amazed how the Dutch don't really look for much conformation in their KNPV lines.
> I personally love how they seem to try and find the best working dogs and keep building their lines off that (with not much emphasis on breed types)...


Some non FCI XMals have been added to the FCI lines but you won't see it in the pedigree and it has improved working ability some. The Dutch who are training XMals don't care about conformation. They have outcrossed to other breeds in the past to add size or tenacity, etc. We now have five Xmals from KNPV lines in our club. One is a stud dog who weighs about 95 pounds and is about 26" or more at the withers. He has a very large head and is super fast and powerful. Very few decoys can catch him without getting knocked of their feet. He easily could have been a police dog but the foundation training was poor in terms of control. We have another adult male who is about 60 pounds. He is a small dog, but super fast, hits the suit very hard and has great precision obedience. His biggest challenge in PSA will be not to bite the decoy when he is not supposed to and his control in that area is coming along very nicely. He also could have made a good police dog. He loves to bite and thinks he owns his territory and anybody in it but is social, but needs to have a ball in his mouth so he won't bite someone, but he is not off leash around strangers. The larger dog is social too. Both have great food and prey drive. If your friend gets a dog close to these type of dogs he will need someone who is highly skilled at training them and him to handler the dog and correctly train him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Another kennel, if they are interested in importing, is Peter Verachert's in Chile.








Verpihoeve


Verpihoeve၊ Valparaíso, Chile .နှစ်သက်သူ ၆၆၉ ဦး . +56 9 79874938




www.facebook.com


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

SemperBlue said:


> I know this is a little off topic.... I've been reading up a lot on both of their puppy programs the past few days, for someone like me who is getting a working line GSD next year (I've done some OB with other Working Lines). Which puppy program would you recommend? I saw LHK has a reputable puppy imprinting/development course, and Ot Vitosha has a puppy foundation course as well. I'm trying to become a well-rounded handler in IGP and have support from others through my club. My main concern is laying the correct foundation in IGP for my pup when not in the club setting.
> Thanks again for your help!


I would focus on finding a pup that is likely to have the genetic traits you want in a dog, which is not easy and you have to know and identify those different traits. With LHK, you can't go wrong and unless the purchaser really messed the dog up, the breeder will very likely take the pup back and replace it.


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I would focus on finding a pup that is likely to have the genetic traits you want in a dog, which is not easy and you have to know and identify those different traits. With LHK, you can't go wrong and unless the purchaser really messed the dog up, the breeder will very likely take the pup back and replace it.


I've been researching a variety of GSD kennels, I am taking the next year to get more acclimated to the sport and find what I want in a dog. So far I know I want a male pup with a good drive that's confident, outgoing, & protective. I'm not really looking for a shy/fearful pup. I think I am going to purchase LHK's puppy imprinting program, I see that they constantly add new videos and other information to build upon over time.

As you mentioned, most of the breeders I've looked into also have some sort of health/working guarantee. The head trainer for my club also makes a few trips out to Europe every year. He has mentioned looking for a pup for me (if I wanted) while he is out there next year.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Nobody wants a shy, fearful pup. When you say good drive, what drives are you referring to. If you want to do IGP and have fun and success, you want a dog with high prey drive. If you want a dog that will protect also, you want a dog with genetics to be civil or bite when no equipment is present. A lot of IGP dogs have not had their nerves adequately tested. Sounds you at the point that you don't know what you done know which is where everyone is at some point.


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Nobody wants a shy, fearful pup. When you say good drive, what drives are you referring to. If you want to do IGP and have fun and success, you want a dog with high prey drive. If you want a dog that will protect also, you want a dog with genetics to be civil or bite when no equipment is present. A lot of IGP dogs have not had their nerves adequately tested. Sounds you at the point that you don't know what you done know which is where everyone is at some point.


That is exactly why I'm taking the next year to keep researching and learn from my DVG club. I don't know much and I want to learn more 😂. 

I'd like a high prey drive, but I'd like to hone my skills to help shut it down (or tone it down) whenever we are not training and at home. I've been around a lot of working GSDs through family but most of my personal training experiences (OB) are with APBT's. 

Thanks for helping me out so far! I'm soaking up everyone's knowledge. I want to be as prepared as possible in this endeavor.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

SemperBlue said:


> From what I've gathered so far from responses/research is LHK seems geared a lot towards LE, Military, and other government agencies (but also sells to civilians for sport). Ot Vitosha seems more for sport and is sold mostly to civilians. Also, it looks like both do an excellent job with breedings/picking a puppies based upon handler experience, & wants/needs. I'll be sure to show him all of the options from the knowledgeable posts I've received so far.


I’d say that is a fairly accurate assessment. The types of dogs that are geared towards LE, military type work can be used in sports. They tend to be harder to control, less biddable and very sharp. These traits can work against them in sport venues. These dots can be titled. If your goals are to compete at higher levels, these traits may pose a significant problem. One dog I know of was a LE dog before he was sold to the US. While he was an incredible dog, his trainer didn’t take him to the higher level competitions like nationals because he didn’t think he could compete. This is a highly accomplished trainer. Another thing to consider is in IGP, the higher level competitions require a dog with papers. Some national ones don’t, like DVG and USCA working dog, but most do. The international ones require papers as well. I would make sure the dog can participate in the venues I want when I buy them. The papers won’t matter for psa.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

SemperBlue said:


> That is exactly why I'm taking the next year to keep researching and learn from my DVG club. I don't know much and I want to learn more 😂.
> 
> I'd like a high prey drive, but I'd like to hone my skills to help shut it down (or tone it down) whenever we are not training and at home. I've been around a lot of working GSDs through family but most of my personal training experiences (OB) are with APBT's.
> 
> Thanks for helping me out so far! I'm soaking up everyone's knowledge. I want to be as prepared as possible in this endeavor.


I think the important part is to figure out what type of dog you like and want to live with. Your dog is only working so often. The rest of the time you need to be able to handle him and enjoy time with him. A very sharp dog may not be the best candidate to take out to public places, especially if you don’t want to constantly be on alert. One thing you will learn that is different is with sport dogs you want to build and cap drive to get the best performance. In pet obedience, especially when you run into certain issues, the easiest answer is to shut down drive.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> The types of dogs that are geared towards LE, military type work can be used in sports. They tend to be harder to control, less biddable and very sharp.


I can tell you LHK has no use for a sharp, defensive dog. He sees them as usually weaker dogs with weaker nerves. Most of the breeders in Holland of non FCI dogs have shifted to highly social, high threshold for defense dogs with extreme prey and hunt drive. But SB is looking for a GSD which LHK's doesn't deal with because of health issues and being so hard to find a good one.


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

Yes! Chip Blasiole is correct I'm looking for GSD. I'm just gathering some information for a friend of mine in my DVG club on LHK/Ot Vitosha since he's trying to determine which kennel to purchase a pup from.

Although, later down the road when I have more experience I'd love to own a Mal or Mal/DS cross. So all of the information I'm gathering will be very useful later on for me as well.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time out to respond so far, I really appreciate it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I can tell you LHK has no use for a sharp, defensive dog. He sees them as usually weaker dogs with weaker nerves. Most of the breeders in Holland of non FCI dogs have shifted to highly social, high threshold for defense dogs with extreme prey and hunt drive. But SB is looking for a GSD which LHK's doesn't deal with because of health issues and being so hard to find a good one.


It’s just low threshold defense dogs I’m referring to. I’m referring to dogs that can be quick to attack in general, regardless of motivation. I’m also not just referring to LHK, but dogs in general.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I can tell you from experience that traveling and operating with a low threshold dog is 10 times harder than a high threshold, social dog that will still get the job done when it's go time. 

Mike's customers work all day, everyday with their dogs. Many fly all over the world, working and living in all kinds of conditions. Imagine having a low threshold dog on a helicopter, packed with a bunch of keyed up, yelling soldiers. It takes a lot of handler to control that kind of dog in that situation. 

Right off the bird, and she's up on my shoulder to keep her from muzzle punching anyone, or needing a harsh correction which may take her out of drive and we had a ton of searching to do.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is Mike testing a dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> This is Mike testing a dog.


Looks like a good dog.


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## SemperBlue (Oct 20, 2020)

That was great! I'd love to handle one of those dogs when I'm ready for it! 👏😬👍


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

His dog of choice is a high prey, high fight dog, not a defensive dog. Notice the dog is wagging his tail and not stressed. Knowing how to manage that type of dog’s prey drive is key and the foundation is key. They are not defensive socially aggressive dogs, but they have high fight in which their fight increases as pressure increases. Defensive aggression does not increase with pressure with these type of dogs, but they are a different breed than the GSD with a different nerve base. You can see it with their intense speed in every aspect of training, intensity in biting and very high hunt drive, but they tend to be social dogs that are not defensively aggressive.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> His dog of choice is a high prey, high fight dog, not a defensive dog. Notice the dog is wagging his tail and not stressed. Knowing how to manage that type of dog’s prey drive is key and the foundation is key. They are not defensive socially aggressive dogs, but they have high fight in which their fight increases as pressure increases. Defensive aggression does not increase with pressure with these type of dogs, but they are a different breed than the GSD with a different nerve base. You can see it with their intense speed in every aspect of training, intensity in biting and very high hunt drive, but they tend to be social dogs that are not defensively aggressive.


Good choice of dog. I like mine with a little bit of a edge in their protection work, but they are also a different breed.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Use of the term edge is common and useful in understanding that the edge you are referring to can lead to a dog falling off the “edge” in either direction- avoidance or fight. IMO, nerves and health are the two biggest problems in the GSD. Since the GSD doesn’t have the nerve base and intensity of prey drive in a solid Mal, they need a balance of prey and what some refer to as active defensive aggression (even though defense is always reactive and based on worry.). Active defensive aggression is the strongest most confident type of defensive aggression. It is genetic, often dogs with this trait need no training for such a dog to display serious biting as his first display of aggressive behavior, and it has violent intent more aimed at subduing a threat rather than chasing the threat away. IMO this type of GSD is not common. Then the continuum slides progressively in the other direction to less and less effective defensive aggression. GSDs closer to that end of the continuum can still be very good dogs and the further a dog goes toward the other end of the continuum, the weaker the defensive aggression goes. That is why sometimes naive people have a GSD that is very sharp and reactive they think they have a strong dog who in reality could easily be run by someone or something that brings pressure and presence.


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