# Are Whites *different*



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I've been thinking....any who have read my posts, probably know I am quite in love with my Kaos. So it is time to come out  Kaos is the mix of a WGWL and a White. I know, I know, and had I known everything I've learned now, I wouldn't have touched him with a 10 ft pole...but we did and we have had the best dog I can ever imagine. He has never had health issues, hips are great, no allergies, no skin or ear problem, no sensitive stomach....besides the knee arthritis which was result of an injury you get the idea. My question is regards to personality.........

Do whites seem to have the same personality/temperment as their darker cousins? Are there any noticable differences? I guess I'm wondering because technically I don't own a breed standard GSD, so how much of what I love about him is truly genetic...or if they are different which side he favors.

Anyone have any thoughts?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I grew up with Whites.... and they were fabulous. Smart, intelligent, protective, good with kids. Long lived and healthy.

I think as with any "line" you need to look most closely at the breeder.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Hondo's sire is white, the bitch is a saddle back, black and tan. Both dogs are standard coated. They have had three litters - Hondo still remains the only long coated puppy from them. 

*knock on wood* Hondo has no known health issues.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I think white GSD are beautiful. The only thing that I could see being a problem are those that breed for whites only & not giving care to anything else.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

gagsd said:


> I grew up with Whites.... and they were fabulous. Smart, intelligent, protective, good with kids. Long lived and healthy.
> 
> I think as with any "line" you need to look most closely at the breeder.


 
So they are essentially the same "personality" as others as long as the breeding is correct? 
Looking closely at the breeder...yes, it will be 3-4 years before we will consider another dog. Can I just say I feel a bit frozen with fear over all the choices and all that can go wrong. We know a breeder who had K's sister...she is retired, but they have a daughter of hers that they are titling in order to breed. I would love to get one with some of K's bloodline, with the chance it would be even near what he is.....but there are a lot of things I don't like. She appears to let customers choose which puppy, she has a link for paypal for people to put down deposits online (leading me to believe there isn't a strict application process). Am I being too picky, or is that a whole other thread


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Hondo's sire is white, the bitch is a saddle back, black and tan. Both dogs are standard coated. They have had three litters - Hondo still remains the only long coated puppy from them.
> 
> *knock on wood* Hondo has no known health issues.


Too funny Kaos' sire is also the white one. I have seen quite a few of his *siblings* and the color range is remarkable. There are pure whites, black/tan, a few that were mostly black.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Courtney said:


> I think white GSD are beautiful. The only thing that I could see being a problem are those that breed for whites only & not giving care to anything else.


Agreed.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

mysweetkaos said:


> So they are essentially the same "personality" as others as long as the breeding is correct?
> Looking closely at the breeder...yes, it will be 3-4 years before we will consider another dog. Can I just say I feel a bit frozen with fear over all the choices and all that can go wrong. We know a breeder who had K's sister...she is retired, but they have a daughter of hers that they are titling in order to breed. I would love to get one with some of K's bloodline, with the chance it would be even near what he is.....but there are a lot of things I don't like. She appears to let customers choose which puppy, she has a link for paypal for people to put down deposits online (leading me to believe there isn't a strict application process). Am I being too picky, or is that a whole other thread


A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. It's so overwhelming trying to pick a breeder that *should* be this or that and most absolutely not do that! Spend time training your dog, going to dog shows, visiting your local GSD club and you'll find out what you like or don't like and be better prepared for picking the breeder that is right for _you._

Raven has a white dog in her background. One of the grandparents, maybe even one on each side, I can't remember. Her "breeders" were hoping for a few whites in the litter.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

mysweetkaos said:


> So they are essentially the same "personality" as others as long as the breeding is correct?
> Looking closely at the breeder...yes, it will be 3-4 years before we will consider another dog. Can I just say I feel a bit frozen with fear over all the choices and all that can go wrong. We know a breeder who had K's sister...she is retired, but they have a daughter of hers that they are titling in order to breed. I would love to get one with some of K's bloodline, with the chance it would be even near what he is.....but there are a lot of things I don't like. She appears to let customers choose which puppy, she has a link for paypal for people to put down deposits online (leading me to believe there isn't a strict application process). Am I being too picky, or is that a whole other thread


IMO, there are probably not that many breeders really producing dogs that are like those whites I grew up with.... in any color or line. 
Regarding a breeder, find one that has dogs you like, that you trust and feel comfortable giving your money to.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. It's so overwhelming trying to pick a breeder that *should* be this or that and most absolutely not do that! Spend time training your dog, going to dog shows, visiting your local GSD club and you'll find out what you like or don't like and be better prepared for picking the breeder that is right for _you._
> 
> Raven has a white dog in her background. One of the grandparents, maybe even one on each side, I can't remember. Her "breeders" were hoping for a few whites in the litter.


 
Good advice thank you.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

gagsd said:


> IMO, there are probably not that many breeders really producing dogs that are like those whites I grew up with.... in any color or line.
> Regarding a breeder, find one that has dogs you like, that you trust and feel comfortable giving your money to.


Yeah there would definetely need to be trust there. Fortunately we are a ways off from looking seriously. I just keep in contact with the one breeder because she had K's sister who happens to be all white. So we always compare funny stories, because they are so similiar. I just didn't know if there was a difference in the whites.....personality wise.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

mysweetkaos said:


> So we always compare funny stories, because they are so similiar. I just didn't know if there was a difference in the whites.....personality wise.


IMO I don't think color is what defines personality. A GSD has specific traits no matter what color. Lakota is my first white, I have heard different things mostly weak nerve things. I do not see anything of the sort with her. She is confident, bold, smart as a whip, sweet as pie and tuff as nails.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

kiya said:


> IMO I don't think color is what defines personality. A GSD has specific traits no matter what color. Lakota is my first white, I have heard different things mostly weak nerve things. I do not see anything of the sort with her. She is confident, bold, smart as a whip, sweet as pie and tuff as nails.


Thank you.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Found this interesting....long, but interesting.

White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

yeah whites are different. power to the people.
oh wait, wrong whites.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

The problem is that most good breeders do not breed white GSD's, so yes, many of the white GSD's out there have issues from poor breeding. It's not the color in and of itself.

There is a reason you aren't seeing white police dogs (and no it's not because they'd stand out in the dark) and white shepherds doing competitive schutzhund or ringsport. Bad breeding leads to poor puppy temperament and comformation and lack of working ability. Good breeders, breeding to the standard and to improve the GSD, aren't breeding white shepherds. So who does that leave to breed them by and large? BYB's.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There is no difference in personality in WGSDs. The ONLY difference between a WGSD and its colored counterparts is COLOR.

If you are more interested in WGSDs, I would contact WhiteShepherds on here, she knows her stuff and of good WGSD breeders.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> There is no difference in personality in WGSDs. The ONLY difference between a WGSD and its colored counterparts is COLOR.
> 
> If you are more interested in WGSDs, I would contact WhiteShepherds on here, she knows her stuff and of good WGSD breeders.


Thank you....I will do that if we decide to seriously pursue. Like I mentioned with Kaos being my only GSD, and him being 1/2 white, 1/2 WGWL...I was curious if there was a difference to determine if particular traits he has is more one than the other....for the day hopefully far in the future that he is no longer with us


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Rerun said:


> There is a reason you aren't seeing white police dogs (and no it's not because they'd stand out in the dark) and white shepherds doing competitive schutzhund or ringsport. Bad breeding leads to poor puppy temperament and comformation and lack of working ability. Good breeders, breeding to the standard and to improve the GSD, aren't breeding white shepherds. So who does that leave to breed them by and large? BYB's.


This is kind of what I was wondering.

However, there seem to be breeders of whites that care about hips, health, etc. and whose dogs participate in obedience, agility, SAR etc... but I have yet to see a white in anything that involves bitework. I have to assume there is a nerve issue in the gene pool, otherwise I'm sure someone would have done it by now.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

mysweetkaos said:


> Too funny Kaos' sire is also the white one. I have seen quite a few of his *siblings* and the color range is remarkable. There are pure whites, black/tan, a few that were mostly black.


I know they haven't had any whites or blacks. From the pictures I've seen, his siblings are black and tan saddle backs. Hondo's colors are really washed out, but truly odd looking. I suppose it's because he is a LH.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Freestep said:


> This is kind of what I was wondering.
> 
> However, there seem to be breeders of whites that care about hips, health, etc. and whose dogs participate in obedience, agility, SAR etc... but I have yet to see a white in anything that involves bitework. I have to assume there is a nerve issue in the gene pool, otherwise I'm sure someone would have done it by now.


You can have dogs with good nerve, just no drive for work.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

There's probably not much of a difference between the whites and all the other black and tan American line shepherds out there.

I suspect there is a difference between some of the more serious working lines and the white American lines though. You're prob not going to see many white sch3's for a reason.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I know 2 of K's siblings are K-9 officers (were,now retired). Has a couple SAR...of course they are only 1/2 white..maybe that makes a difference. His sister had a few titles too, I know herding..not sure which other ones. I could be mistaken I will doublecheck.... his *niece* who is 3/4 white has started SCH training. I will doublecheck to get that straight though. You don't just think you don't see many of them in those lines due to the fact that they aren't nearly as popular?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

After my son brought home his WGSD pup, I went all over researching all I could find on the 'net.

I recall finding some site that said the whites were more "gentle" and "calm" than the others. For the life of me now, I can't find anything out there that says that.

I personally have no idea, as my only point of reference is my son's dog and my pup, who is her son. I've never owned any GSD.

I can say my son's WGSD is a pretty gentle and calm girl, though. Never landsharky, never chewed on hands, never a really strong drive at all, other than a deep love for Frisbee. Her son is much the same == higher energy, though, likely due to the Husky influence in him. He's soft-mouthed and has never been a landshark, just like his mama. He also has her sweet sort of disposition, but has some fear issues. Yup, he's a mutt, but thankfully is showing far more of his mama's traits than dad's.

I'm going out on a limb, but I'm starting to believe that the WGSD breeders are NOT going for Schutzhund candidates... they're breeding for family companion dogs. Sure, there are a great many crap byb's in the whites, and that's where you must be really careful. (Just breeding for white with no concern for anything else.) 

Not all of us want really high drive dogs, not all of us want to do bitework, Schutzhund, etc... and there's nothing wrong with that. I guess you have to be really, really careful in finding a good breeder, just as with any GSD I suppose - but maybe even *more* careful.


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## MamaTank (Nov 27, 2011)

White is a component in the overall genetic makeup of the GSD. It's present in all of them, but doesn't manifest as often as Black/Tan. I remember reading about it when I was doing some research shortly after adopt Caesar. Having been around GSD's throughout my life (and owning two), I will say that Caesar (for all of his health problems) is very cool and calm. He's confident, friendly but reserved, and is well behaved with people he doesn't know. He IS slightly Dog Aggressive with any large dominant dog, but can be trusted with smaller dogs and puppies. I don't know how much that will help  
We love him, and his color was a secondary concern. (I was mostly concerned about deafness and blindness, as afflicts some white dogs.)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

gagsd said:


> You can have dogs with good nerve, just no drive for work.


The white GSDs I've met, while sweet dogs, did not have exemplary nerve.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

chelle said:


> After my son brought home his WGSD pup, I went all over researching all I could find on the 'net.
> 
> I recall finding some site that said the whites were more "gentle" and "calm" than the others. For the life of me now, I can't find anything out there that says that.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that info....I appreciate it. If we ever made the choice SCH is not in our plans. Although good nerves are necessary to live here with my 3 sons I just checked the breeder with some of K's bloodline. Most of her whites are therapy, CGC things of that nature which would require good nerves. So like I said a long ways out for us....just curious about K. Thanks again. Your Bailey is so cute!! A pup that isn't a landshark....I can't even imagine what that is like!! We own a mutt too...not K, but Sherman is a mastiff/GSD mix...we love him! The mastiff really tones down the shepherd pup side of him


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Another question to throw out there that I've heard recently concerning not only white shepherds but also any very "recessive" color in a dog (i.e. White boxers, etc.). 

Is it possible that along with passing on a recessive color, the lines carry other recessive traits or undesirable traits or health issues that the "original breeders" didn't want in the line? I'm asking this purely out of curiosity because I have no clue... it makes sense rationally but I'm no geneticist by any stretch of the imagination


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

sashadog said:


> Another question to throw out there that I've heard recently concerning not only white shepherds but also any very "recessive" color in a dog (i.e. White boxers, etc.).
> 
> Is it possible that along with passing on a recessive color, the lines carry other recessive traits or undesirable traits or health issues that the "original breeders" didn't want in the line? I'm asking this purely out of curiosity because I have no clue... it makes sense rationally but I'm no geneticist by any stretch of the imagination


That's what they thought back when the breed was created and one of the reasons why whites were not allowed in the breed. Now we know that white in the GSD is a masking gene, completely different from the withe of boxers and dalmatians and not linked with deafness.

But yes, every time a breeder focuses on a single trait, the breed looses strength and balance, and ig said trait is a recessive one, then sooner or later you will see other problems arising.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

MamaTank said:


> White is a component in the overall genetic makeup of the GSD. It's present in all of them, but doesn't manifest as often as Black/Tan. I remember reading about it when I was doing some research shortly after adopt Caesar. Having been around GSD's throughout my life (and owning two), I will say that Caesar (for all of his health problems) is very cool and calm. He's confident, friendly but reserved, and is well behaved with people he doesn't know. He IS slightly Dog Aggressive with any large dominant dog, but can be trusted with smaller dogs and puppies. I don't know how much that will help
> We love him, and his color was a secondary concern. (I was mostly concerned about deafness and blindness, as afflicts some white dogs.)


 
White is not found in all German Shepherd Dogs. 
It is a recessive gene. It is actually a "masking" gene, so the white dog is genetically one of the "normal" colors underneath the white (very simplified). To be white, both parents had to carry the white masking gene and pass it on.

White dogs do not necessarily have anymore issues than standard colored dogs. Many white GSD breeders pay close attention to health and genetics.

Poor nerves come in all lines. Health issues come in all lines. It is more important, IMO, to look at the breeder and the pedigree, than the lines.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Rerun said:


> The problem is that most good breeders do not breed white GSD's, so yes, many of the white GSD's out there have issues from poor breeding. It's not the color in and of itself.
> 
> There is a reason you aren't seeing white police dogs (and no it's not because they'd stand out in the dark) and white shepherds doing competitive schutzhund or ringsport. Bad breeding leads to poor puppy temperament and comformation and lack of working ability. Good breeders, breeding to the standard and to improve the GSD, aren't breeding white shepherds. So who does that leave to breed them by and large? BYB's.


From what I've read I got the impression that is in USA where whites became popular first, along with the other "rare colors" (blue, red, no saddle or mask, etc) you don't see anywhere else and most of them come from an ASL background. Even the Berger Blanc Suisse was originated from dogs imported from USA.

If the majority of the whites you see today come from dogs that have not been selected for work for generations and generations, that is what you get.

The only guy I know who breeds White GSDs here imported a couple from USA and they look very ASL (as far as I can tell, since I've never seen one in person).


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## MamaTank (Nov 27, 2011)

gagsd said:


> White is not found in all German Shepherd Dogs.
> It is a recessive gene. It is actually a "masking" gene, so the white dog is genetically one of the "normal" colors underneath the white (very simplified). To be white, both parents had to carry the white masking gene and pass it on.
> 
> White dogs do not necessarily have anymore issues than standard colored dogs. Many white GSD breeders pay close attention to health and genetics.
> ...


I knew about the "masking", recessive, and that it had to be carried by both parents... but I must have misunderstood the part where I thought it had said that the color was part of the genetic makeup concerning coat color. I know I didn't state it very well either... I really shouldn't do forums when I'm tired. Thank you for correcting me.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

To imply that breeding for whites equals bad breeding shows how little some people know about the white GSD community, but this doesn't come as a surprise. It's easier to make assumptions than it is to take the time to educate yourself. 

About judging whites by whether or not they do Schutzhund...

The United Schutzhund Clubs of America have by-laws, rules and regulations. Their primary objectives are: 
_To preserve the German Shepherd Dogin accordance with the breed standard as a working dog, to promote humane training methods for the working dog, and to support responsible dog ownership and breeding practices._
Additionally,all rules for registering dogs and their litters with the USCA would exclude whites because of the color fault. The same applies to the SV. (the SV doesn't even acknowledge that white GSD's exist)

Does it come as surprise that a lot of clubs won't allow whites in and that in years past banned them completely? To their credit it would be in direct conflict with the USCA's objectives but good grief....Don't ban a dog from a particular sport for over 30 years in the US, and for 80 plus years in the SV and then jump all over it's case because you don't see it winning any titles for it. How ridiculous. 

Breeding for whites does NOT translate into producing dogs with health and temperament issues unless the breeder is an idiot, it's as simple as that.

Given the number of whites produced each year in comparison to the number of standard colored GSD's (about 5% are white) and knowing full well what condition the breed is in as a whole, I'm thinking there are a whole lot of idiots breeding bad GSD's and those dog aren't all white.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

mysweetkaos said:


> Thank you for that info....I appreciate it. If we ever made the choice SCH is not in our plans. Although good nerves are necessary to live here with my 3 sons I just checked the breeder with some of K's bloodline. Most of her whites are therapy, CGC things of that nature which would require good nerves. So like I said a long ways out for us....just curious about K. Thanks again. Your Bailey is so cute!! A pup that isn't a landshark....I can't even imagine what that is like!! We own a mutt too...not K, but Sherman is a mastiff/GSD mix...we love him! The mastiff really tones down the shepherd pup side of him


Sounds like you're on the right track, doing your homework early! 

I used to get SO UPSET with my son when he lived here with her as a puppy. He'd leave her uncrated in his bedroom with ALL kinds of tempting puppy chew material all over. Clothes, socks, CD's, all the trappings of a 19 yr old kid... and that girl never chewed any of it??!?? It was a pretty major source of arguements between he and I... he'd say, Oh Mom, she won't do that/chew that and I'd say OH YES SHE WILL! and she'll get sick and do herself major harm! And that little buggersnot was right, she never did those things. So far, Bailey has not chewed up anything other than a small piece of carpet in front of a door to a room he wanted to go in. He was corrected and has never done it again. He's never chewed the house at all, other than that. His bite is very soft and I work to make it softer all the time, though many might disagree with that, but that's what I want. The landshark thing I hear so much about is something I know nothing of.. and I'm glad!

So, no, don't be scared off by the whites.......... but do know, you cannot wear black clothes anymore.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> To imply that breeding for whites equals bad breeding shows how little some people know about the white GSD community, but this doesn't come as a surprise. It's easier to make assumptions than it is to take the time to educate yourself.
> 
> About judging whites by whether or not they do Schutzhund...
> 
> ...


Great post thank you White Shepherd. Clears up a lot!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

MamaTank said:


> I knew about the "masking", recessive, and that it had to be carried by both parents... but I must have misunderstood the part where I thought it had said that the color was part of the genetic makeup concerning coat color. I know I didn't state it very well either... I really shouldn't do forums when I'm tired. Thank you for correcting me.


No problem. 
Sorry if I come off as rude, I only mean to be "to the point."


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

chelle said:


> So, no, don't be scared off by the whites.......... but do know, you cannot wear black clothes anymore.


You can't wear black clothes if you own a GSD period, no matter what color he/she is.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Neither USCA nor any other SchH organization prohibits whites from participating. Heck, a mixed breed can participate if they have the temperament for it and an owner willing to do the work. The lack of whites doing SchH is not due to any organizational by-laws. It is due to a lack of interest by the owners of whites, lack of temperament suitable for the work in the dogs, or most likely a combination of both as with all bloodlines over time the interest and priorities of the fanciers and breeders affects the dogs themselves and what traits the lines possess and lack. 

I'm not saying that SchH is the end all and be all, or that there aren't any whites who could do it. Just pointing out that the implication that they wouldn't be allowed because of breed standard issues is completely false.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


For what it is worth, I think that article is a steaming pile of (you know what).

To start with, they are consistently spelling the name of Horand von Grafrath's grandsire incorrectly. He was called Greif Sparwasser, not Grief. Once is a typo. Five times in a paragraph is a lack of knowledge.

They suggest that Von Stephanitz thought that white Shepherds were excellent examples of the breed and that it was pressure from the Nazis that excluded the white Shepherds from the breed standard. This is incorrect.

Stephanitz was never a fan of the white dogs - he felt they lacked the spirit and intelligence of their normal-colored cousins. This is quite clear in his book. However, he also said that "no good dog is a bad color" - so when he found an example of a white dog who did possess the traits he was looking for in a dog, the color was a secondary consideration.

The other thing is that the white Shepherds were excluded in Germany in 1933. This is the same year that the Nazi party first came into power. I very highly doubt that it was the Nazi's first and foremost order of business to exclude white dogs from the standard after they'd just taken power.

The only thing that they are actually correct about is why the white Shepherds were excluded. Not because they couldn't work, but because it was (falsely) assumed that the white gene was a dilution gene and would cause colors to become diluted if a white dog was bred to a normal-colored dog. It was also believed that white in Shepherds was, like albinism, linked to various health problems.

Of course, we now know that white Shepherds are not albinos - they have dark noses and dark skin like regular-colored Shepherd Dogs. We also now know that the white gene is a masking gene that essentially "covers" the dog's regular color with white. You get a white puppy when both parents carry the gene to produce white dogs. 

Since two normal-colored Shepherds that carry the white gene can produce white pups, you should see the same temperament and traits in those white pups as you would in any other German Shepherd. 

However, the breeders that produce white Shepherds - whether they call them White Swiss Shepherd Dogs, as they do in Europe, or not - are breeding white to white, so you will consistently get white dogs but you're also limiting your gene pool and you may start seeing temperament to change in those lines. Some of those breeders are breeding for looks first and foremost. Others for companion/pet dogs. Same as with the normal-colored dogs. So the abilities and temperaments in whites range just like they do with other Shepherds.



> There is a reason you aren't seeing white police dogs (and no it's not because they'd stand out in the dark) and white shepherds doing competitive schutzhund or ringsport.


Really?

RWS e. V.     >>>    Rassezuchtverein für Weisse Schweizer Schäferhunde e.V.    >>>

I see plenty of whites training and titling in Schutzhund listed on the website of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog in Germany. Last I checked, although they're called White Swiss Shepherds in Europe, they're still white German Shepherds. Working and titling in Schutzhund.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I am still confused on why they call them White Swiss Shepherds. I think its pointless to make them seem like 2 separate breeds, when they are the same kind of dog.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I am still confused on why they call them White Swiss Shepherds.


They're called White Swiss Shepherds because Agatha Burch brought white Shepherds back from the US and Canada to Switzerland (where she lived) and started a breeding program. They pushed to make them a separate breed because the SV does not recognize them due to their color.



> I think its pointless to make them seem like 2 separate breeds, when they are the same kind of dog.


Why? Belgian Shepherds are 4 different breeds (Malinois, Tervuren, Laekenois and Groenendael) and they're the same dog with different coat types. Corgis are recognized as two separate breeds, the Pembroke and the Cardigan Welsh Corgi. Lots of breeds are.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> I see plenty of whites training and titling in Schutzhund listed on the website of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog in Germany. Last I checked, although they're called White Swiss Shepherds in Europe, they're still white German Shepherds. Working and titling in Schutzhund.


I think the names Berger Blanc Suisse and White Swiss Shepherd both refer to the same breed. I know they share the same dna as the white GSD's (and down the bloodline, standard GSD's) but they are a separate breed. 
I'm not sure how the white GSD suddenly gained back it's ability to do Schutzhund when it's name was changed but yes, they're doing it...Maybe it's something in the German water. 




Chris Wild said:


> Neither USCA nor any other SchH organization prohibits whites from participating.


I was told by 3 different Schutzhund clubs that they did not accept whites. Not one of these people ever laid eyes on my dogs so it wasn't a matter of the decision being made after the dogs were tested. So please, don't tell me none of these clubs prohibit whites, that's just not true. If you live in an area where whites are allowed in the clubs that's great but it doesn't change my reality.

I tried very hard not to imply that all whites had the temperament needed to do Schutzhund. I'm pretty sure I never said that because I know it's not true. What I object to is people implying that a dog without a SCH title must not have a good temperament. It's like saying any dog that doesn't participate in dock diving must be afraid of the water. There are other ways to determine if a dogs temperament is good or bad besides Schutzhund.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I've had this argument before. Any time you bred for one trait above all others something will suffer. Yes, I do feel that wgsds as a whole do not possess the working ability they should. Yes, there are some out there. But they are the exception not the rule.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Whiteshepherds...what schh clubs are telling you that? I know people from several in your area....i certainly don't see any saying that.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> Why? Belgian Shepherds are 4 different breeds (Malinois, Tervuren, Laekenois and Groenendael) and they're the same dog with different coat types. Corgis are recognized as two separate breeds, the Pembroke and the Cardigan Welsh Corgi. Lots of breeds are.


However, when you breed a WGSD with, say, a saddleback, they can still be registered as purebred GSDs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were to bred a Pem and a Cardi corgi, you couldn't register them as a purebred corgi of either type.

I also think it's stupid to try and separate a breed based solely on its color. 

I think the reasoning behind WGSDs not being 'suitable' to do SchH is because they're most all American line dogs, which are bred to be pretty in the show ring, not necessarily for their working ability. (Unfortunately).


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Woke up to so many replies....after the kids get off to school I will either learn to multi-quote, or just reply to a few things. Thank you all for your time.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

*



mysweetkaos

Click to expand...

*


> _Thank you for that info....I appreciate it. If we ever made the choice SCH is not in our plans. Although good nerves are necessary to live here with my 3 sons I just checked the breeder with some of K's bloodline. Most of her whites are therapy, CGC things of that nature which would require good nerves. So like I said a long ways out for us...._




_A CGC and a therapy dog are not even remotely comparable to the nerve needed for a schh dog. You will been an even longer way off from a schh puppy if you base the breeding stock criteria on a dog with a CGC and/or one that is a therapy dog._


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rerun said:


> *[/I]
> 
> A CGC and a therapy dog are not even remotely comparable to the nerve needed for a schh dog. You will been an even longer way off from a schh puppy if you base the breeding stock criteria on a dog with a CGC and/or one that is a therapy dog.*


*

I was stating this because earlier I had said I know some whites were titled, but wasn't sure with what....so after checking most whites were Therapy or CGC. I am well aware there is a vast difference in nerves needed. I was not saying anyone based their breeding stock on those things*


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I've had this argument before. Any time you bred for one trait above all others something will suffer. Yes, I do feel that wgsds as a whole do not possess the working ability they should. Yes, there are some out there. But they are the exception not the rule.


I agree breeding for one trait CAN cause other things to suffer, but it certainly isn't an absolute. I am sure there are whites out there who were bred as a complete package. Whether or not they as a whole group possess something would be impossible for me to say.....how many of the standard color ones possess everything needed....not ones on this board, but out w/Joe public?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think the names Berger Blanc Suisse and White Swiss Shepherd both refer to the same breed. I know they share the same dna as the white GSD's (and down the bloodline, standard GSD's) but they are a separate breed.


It is, errr... exactly the same in two different languages...

They became a separate breed because under the SV rules, and therefore the FCI rules all Europe (minus UK) follows, you can't register a white shepherd, so the situation is very different in Europe than in USA.



> I'm not sure how the white GSD suddenly gained back it's ability to do Schutzhund when it's name was changed but yes, they're doing it...Maybe it's something in the German water.


It is not the water, but rather the culture. In a country where you have as many Schutzhund clubs as we have soccer clubs around here it is not only easier to train, but more socially promoted. When you have people interested in Schutzhund, people breed for traits used in Schutzhund.



> There are other ways to determine if a dogs temperament is good or bad besides Schutzhund.


It is not the only way, probably not even the best way, but wathever criteria a breeder is going to use, I want to see one for *German Shepherd Dog Temperament*, no Golden Retriever temperament, no boxer temperament, no Saint Bernard temperament. And people like it or not it includes, god forbid!, aggression.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

mysweetkaos said:


> I was stating this because earlier I had said I know some whites were titled, but wasn't sure with what....so after checking most whites were Therapy or CGC. I am well aware there is a vast difference in nerves needed. I was not saying anyone based their breeding stock on those things


Being a therapy dog isn't a title, it's just a calm dog that is social and will lay there and let someone pet it. a CGC is also not a title.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

So where does the American White Shepherd Association fall into play AWSACLUB.com: Home of the American White Shepherd Association ?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

OK so after reading through....and failing to learn to multi-quote I will say a few things. I didn't want this to turn into a bashing of WGSD or of any breeder who has them. I understand all of you who have concern for breeders who only breed for color...that is a bad thing and is dangerous to any line when that is done. I can honestly say I don't know why they are not in SCH...possibly each club has their own rules so it varies state by state, possibly because don't white sheperds only make up about 5% of GSD totals...so it would stand to reason you see less. I don't know.


My question was simply if there were any noticable differences. Someone explained it best when they stated, since two B/T's could both carry the masking gene..they could have a white puppy.
So certainly the difference is not in the dog, but the breeding as it is with any dog/ any breed/ any color. 

Thank you all who took the time to reply.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rerun said:


> Being a therapy dog isn't a title, it's just a calm dog that is social and will lay there and let someone pet it. a CGC is also not a title.


Sorry I have not had enough coffee to be clear. Yes, those are not titles. K's sister was worked and did have some titles, as does a niece. Me not being big into that, got the language wrong...for all I know they could just be show titles.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

There actually is an AKC Therapy dog title.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

No one here that I've seen is bashing any color of dog. You asked a question - are they different. The answer is yes, they are, as a result of breeders breeding for the white color and not for working ability.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

mysweetkaos said:


> OK so after reading through....and failing to learn to multi-quote I will say a few things. I didn't want this to turn into a bashing of WGSD or of any breeder who has them. I understand all of you who have concern for breeders who only breed for color...that is a bad thing and is dangerous to any line when that is done. I can honestly say I don't know why they are not in SCH...possibly each club has their own rules so it varies state by state, possibly because don't white sheperds only make up about 5% of GSD totals...so it would stand to reason you see less. I don't know.
> 
> 
> My question was simply if there were any noticable differences. Someone explained it best when they stated, since two B/T's could both carry the masking gene..they could have a white puppy.
> ...


I couldn't have said it better.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rerun said:


> No one here that I've seen is bashing any color of dog. You asked a question - are they different. The answer is yes, they are, as a result of breeders breeding for the white color and not for working ability.


OK fair enough...perhaps bashing is the wrong word. So aside from many breeders not breeding for working ability which to me shows more fault with the breeder than the line of dog, but again I'm no expert. IF a breeder was breeding with thought to temperment and health....would your average "pet" owner notice a difference?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I was told by 3 different Schutzhund clubs that they did not accept whites. Not one of these people ever laid eyes on my dogs so it wasn't a matter of the decision being made after the dogs were tested. So please, don't tell me none of these clubs prohibit whites, that's just not true. If you live in an area where whites are allowed in the clubs that's great but it doesn't change my reality.


Individual clubs are free to pretty much do what they want in terms of who they let in and who they don't and what breeds they want to work with and what they don't. 

But that is not what you said. You spouted off about USCA by-laws and breed standards and SchH being tied to the SV breed standard and clearly implied that there was some thinking within the organization as a whole that would not allow whites. And that is not the case. You've experienced the personal preference of a FEW people doing SchH in your area and that does not represent the whole, or reflect at all on the organizations themselves.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Rerun said:


> No one here that I've seen is bashing any color of dog. You asked a question - are they different. The answer is yes, they are, as a result of breeders breeding for the white color and not for working ability.


Exactly....

Bashing. Or not. Or whatever...it's the truth. Their working ability has a whole has suffered.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

mysweetkaos said:


> OK fair enough...perhaps bashing is the wrong word. So aside from many breeders not breeding for working ability which to me shows more fault with the breeder than the line of dog, but again I'm no expert. IF a breeder was breeding with thought to temperment and health....would your average "pet" owner notice a difference?


As a pet, I wouldn't think anyone would be able to tell a difference between - and here's where it's important - a pet quality black and tan, or sable, or black or whatever color - and a white. Would they be able to tell a difference between a well bred working dog of any color and a pet quality white shepherd, yes, I would think so.

A lot of it comes down to what one considers a "good" breeder. I don't personally have much of an issue with people breeding "pet quality" german shepherds. Hips, temperament, enough nerve to be a good pet able to go to petstores, the park, etc happily and safely, overall good health. A lot of people *do* have a problem with this type of breeder and wouldn't consider that a "good" breeder. A lot of WL breeders want pups to go to working homes. That's just reality. Of course there are pet quality pups in most litters, but it still stands to reason that most of the "good" breeders want working homes. Which is understandable. So I don't really have an issue with pet quality breeders, because it gives the average joe citizen a chance to have a dog a step above a BYB but one that wouldn't otherwise likely "qualify" for a really nice well bred WL GSD. I don't think it makes them a good breeder, but it doesn't make them a bad one in my book. I know all the arguments for and againt pet breeders, so personally speaking I'm not looking to debate them or hash them out again. This is just *my* opinion.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> RWS e. V.*****>>>****Rassezuchtverein für Weisse Schweizer Schäferhunde e.V.****>>>


Okay, so they ARE doing bitework in Europe, that answers my question! Pity more people stateside aren't taking an interest and breeding for this type of working temperament. They may be considered a separate breed, but is the standard the same as the GSD in terms of temperament?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rerun said:


> As a pet, I wouldn't think anyone would be able to tell a difference between - and here's where it's important - a pet quality black and tan, or sable, or black or whatever color - and a white. Would they be able to tell a difference between a well bred working dog of any color and a pet quality white shepherd, yes, I would think so.
> 
> A lot of it comes down to what one considers a "good" breeder. I don't personally have much of an issue with people breeding "pet quality" german shepherds. Hips, temperament, enough nerve to be a good pet able to go to petstores, the park, etc happily and safely, overall good health. A lot of people *do* have a problem with this type of breeder and wouldn't consider that a "good" breeder. A lot of WL breeders want pups to go to working homes. That's just reality. Of course there are pet quality pups in most litters, but it still stands to reason that most of the "good" breeders want working homes. Which is understandable. So I don't really have an issue with pet quality breeders, because it gives the average joe citizen a chance to have a dog a step above a BYB but one that wouldn't otherwise likely "qualify" for a really nice well bred WL GSD. I don't think it makes them a good breeder, but it doesn't make them a bad one in my book. I know all the arguments for and againt pet breeders, so personally speaking I'm not looking to debate them or hash them out again. This is just *my* opinion.


I agree completely. I do not have what it takes to label good/bad breeders, and quite frankly even thinking of having to look at breeders in a few years overwhelms me. I guess the difference I see is a WL dog could adjust to a non working home as long as given enough exercise/activity and fulfillment...however a pet dog could not adjust to a working home. I do agree with your thought about having an option above BYB to get a nice healthy, mentally sound. Would K cut it in a working home hard to tell, but he sure isn't show quality, much too tall. On the other hand, he is nothing short of amazing for daily life and healthy as a horse (besides old age problems)


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Okay, so they ARE doing bitework in Europe, that answers my question! Pity more people stateside aren't taking an interest and breeding for this type of working temperament. They may be considered a separate breed, but is the standard the same as the GSD in terms of temperament?


AHA the million dollar question!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Ok, this might be a stupid question but one I have wondered for a while; If white is just a masking gene, do whites pop up in working line and german show line litters every once in while? 

If so, do we not see them because they are culled by the breeders? 

If they did pop up every once in a while, I see no reason that whites couldn't be working dogs if they had the right genetics.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

To the original question of "are whites different" it depends on different from what. They will typically represent the lines from which they descend. If we're talking about a white cropping up in a litter of American show lines, they in other respects (health, temperament, etc..) it's going to be typical of it's American show line breeding. If Euro show lines, or working lines, or BYB/pet lines the same would be true. It's going to be just like the others, but with a white coat. Coat color, white or otherwise, is not tied into temperament or health traits from an inheritance standpoint.

Then there are breeders breeding specifically FOR white, and yes those dogs tend to be different and those differences reflect the goals of the breeders. The ones I've seen, from legitimate white breeders, are not like Euro show lines, or American lines, or working lines, in looks or temperament. They are their own type, due to having been bred to the preferences of their fanciers and breeders.

And as with any breed or type or anything else, there are good and bad breeders. And there are breeders who focus solely on the white coat, often at the expense of other more important things like health and temperament. And there are breeders who strive to produce healthy, well temperamented dogs, that just happen to be white, many of whom will also cross to colored dogs to add genetic diversity and bring in traits that are needed, rather than restricting breeding decisions just to what the smaller gene pool of white dogs has to offer. 

And the difference between the two, and the types of dogs produced, is huge.

If someone is looking for a white GSD, then the best option would be to go to a legitimate white breeder who emphasizes much more than white coat in their breeding, and places priority on health testing, temperament testing/performance titling, and maybe conformation showing. Or if the person prefers the general type of American lines or working lines or Euro show lines, try to track down a breeder of that type who might have the genetics for white in their lines. And be prepared to wait a long time for such a puppy to pop up, which also happens to be a good match with respect to temperament and other factors.





robk said:


> Ok, this might be a stupid question but one I have wondered for a while; If white is just a masking gene, do whites pop up in working line and german show line litters every once in while?
> 
> If so, do we not see them because they are culled by the breeders?
> 
> If they did pop up every once in a while, I see no reason that whites couldn't be working dogs if they had the right genetics.


If one were to pop up in a litter in Europe, most likely it would be culled and no one would ever know. Here in the US, that might happen but more likely it would be raised and placed, likely on a spay/neuter contract.

However white doesn't pop up much in European lines because they were culled for decades, and as it's intended to do, that long term practice weeds out most of the genes for that color from the gene pool. So while the genes for white might still exist here and there in Euro show lines and working lines, they are very uncommon. The genes aren't prevalent enough any longer in the gene pool of the Euro lines that it won't often happen where both parents in a litter carry white recessive and are able to produce a white pup. And of course a dog carrying 2 copies of the gene, who would thus be white itself, would never be bred. I've personally never seen nor heard of a white pup cropping up in a litter from any of the many, many working line and show line breeders I know.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> To the original question of "are whites different" it depends on different from what. They will typically represent the lines from which they descend. If we're talking about a white cropping up in a litter of American show lines, they in other respects (health, temperament, etc..) it's going to be typical of it's American show line breeding. If Euro show lines, or working lines, or BYB/pet lines the same would be true. It's going to be just like the others, but with a white coat. Coat color, white or otherwise, is not tied into temperament or health traits from an inheritance standpoint.
> 
> Then there are breeders breeding specifically FOR white, and yes those dogs tend to be different and those differences reflect the goals of the breeders. The ones I've seen, from legitimate white breeders, are not like Euro show lines, or American lines, or working lines, in looks or temperament. They are their own type, due to having been bred to the preferences of their fanciers and breeders.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you..very good info. However your answering my original question....gave me more questions


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> I've personally never seen nor heard of a white pup cropping up in a litter from any of the many, many working line and show line breeders I know.


Nor have I, though I have seen a liver crop up in a working line litter here in the US. It makes me wonder how often off-colors actually do show up in Europe, before they are culled.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

repeated post... whats up with those error messages?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Nor have I, though I have seen a liver crop up in a working line litter here in the US. It makes me wonder how often off-colors actually do show up in Europe, before they are culled.


I've seen blues coming from one litter of showlines, though the litter was "culled" in the sense it was not registered.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

mysweetkaos said:


> OK so after reading through....and failing to learn to multi-quote


Click on this:









For each post you want to quote.  It's located at the bottom right corner of every post.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Click on this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


AWWW thank you, can you tell computers are not my strong suit?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

kiya said:


> So where does the American White Shepherd Association fall into play AWSACLUB.com: Home of the American White Shepherd Association ?


AWSA members believe that since the fault was imposed, the whites have evolved into a separate breed with distinct breed standards. They want to get permission from the GSDCA to voluntary leave the breed so they can seek new breed status. AWSA is not asking the GSDCA to remove all whites from the parent club. If the GSDCA grants permission based on AWSA's request those who wish to continue registering their whites as GSD's would be able to do so. 

The WGSDCA believes the whites are no different than any other GSD and work towards having the fault lifted so the dogs may once again be shown in the ring. (I think they'll settle for something less if they thought it would help gain positive recognition for the whites but you'd have to ask one of their members to be sure)

So while both clubs continue to breed AKC white GSD's their objectives are entirely different.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> AWSA members believe that since the fault was imposed, the whites have evolved into a separate breed with distinct breed standards. .


How does the standard differ?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> However, the breeders that produce white Shepherds - whether they call them White Swiss Shepherd Dogs, as they do in Europe, or not - are breeding white to white, so you will consistently get white dogs but you're also limiting your gene pool and you may start seeing temperament to change in those lines. Some of those breeders are breeding for looks first and foremost. Others for companion/pet dogs. Same as with the normal-colored dogs. *So the abilities and temperaments in whites range just like they do with other Shepherds.*
> 
> RWS e. V.*****>>>****Rassezuchtverein für Weisse Schweizer Schäferhunde e.V.****>>>


Thanks for that post and btw, very cool link, sure wish I could understand German, but enjoyed the pics. 


I've taken a lot of interest in this thread, very informative, but leaves me scratching my head some as well. Why do so many find it such a negative that the whites may be bred to be more companion / pet dogs vs WL / Schutzhund dogs?



Whiteshepherds said:


> ...What I object to is people implying that a dog without a SCH title must not have a good temperament. It's like saying any dog that doesn't participate in dock diving must be afraid of the water. There are other ways to determine if a dogs temperament is good or bad besides Schutzhund.


:thumbup:



GSDElsa said:


> I've had this argument before. Any time you bred for one trait above all others something will suffer. Yes, I do feel that wgsds as a whole do not possess the working ability they should. Yes, there are some out there. But they are the exception not the rule.


And so what if they don't, if that's what the buyer wants and has procured a dog from a reputable breeder who responsibly breeds for health, temperment, etc?



Konotashi said:


> I think the reasoning behind WGSDs not being 'suitable' to do SchH is because they're most all American line dogs, which are bred to be pretty in the show ring, not necessarily for their working ability. (Unfortunately).


Why is this "unfortunate" ?



Rerun said:


> No one here that I've seen is bashing any color of dog. You asked a question - are they different. The answer is yes, they are, as a result of breeders breeding for the white color and not for working ability.


I wouldn't agree with any breeding for *solely* the white, but why (again) is the lack of WL so aggregious?



GSDElsa said:


> Exactly.... Bashing. Or not. Or whatever...it's the truth. Their working ability has a whole has suffered.


Yet again... 



robk said:


> ...If they did pop up every once in a while, I see no reason that whites couldn't be working dogs if they had the right genetics.


Again...



Chris Wild said:


> To the original question of "are whites different" it depends on different from what. They will typically represent the lines from which they descend. If we're talking about a white cropping up in a litter of American show lines, they in other respects (health, temperament, etc..) it's going to be typical of it's American show line breeding. If Euro show lines, or working lines, or BYB/pet lines the same would be true. It's going to be just like the others, but with a white coat. Coat color, white or otherwise, is not tied into temperament or health traits from an inheritance standpoint.
> 
> Then there are breeders breeding specifically FOR white, and yes those dogs tend to be different and *those differences reflect the goals of the breeders*. The ones I've seen, from legitimate white breeders, are not like Euro show lines, or American lines, or working lines, in looks or temperament. They are their own type, *due to having been bred to the preferences of their fanciers and breeders*.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Thank you.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

In short - why is it bad? This breed was bred to work. If the breeder isn't breeding a dog that can work, how are they breeding to improve the breed? How are they breeding to the standard? Schutzhund was created as a breed test for the GSD specifically. Therefore, the GSD should be able to do the work in the sport.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

chelle said:


> Why do so many find it such a negative that the whites may be bred to be more companion / pet dogs vs WL / Schutzhund dogs?


Take this trouble from me:
Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.”
Captain Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

gagsd said:


> I grew up with Whites.... and they were fabulous. Smart, intelligent, protective, good with kids. Long lived and healthy.
> 
> I think as with any "line" you need to look most closely at the breeder.


Maybe it is the wine, but the Topic and the quote above just had me rolling!!!! Thank God I knew this was a German Shepherd Forum.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Rerun said:


> In short - why is it bad? This breed was bred to work. If the breeder isn't breeding a dog that can work, how are they breeding to improve the breed? How are they breeding to the standard? Schutzhund was created as a breed test for the GSD specifically. Therefore, the GSD should be able to do the work in the sport.


So, following that logic, all GSD's (white or otherwise) should be engaged in SCH and if they're not, or if they're not capable, not well suited, they should not have been bred in the first place?



Emoore said:


> Take this trouble from me:
> Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog,
> for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.”
> Captain Max von Stephanitz (1864-1936)


I'll likely get much grief for this sentiment, but we're really going on the feelings of a person born WELL over 100 years ago, and honoring his belief system now? And if we don't, the entire breed fails? This breed, white or not, cannot or should not be bred to be more of a family companion? To have less drive and more family oriented suitibility? (And no, no, no, I'm not saying a SCH dog won't be a wonderful family companion. Just that a less drivey dog would be easier for many families to raise and manage.)


If these things are the general opinons of the masses, I probably don't truly belong here. I don't want really strong drive. I don't want to do SCH. I'm very pleased with the gentle nature of my son's WGSD and, so far, her son. This is pleasing to me, but it is kind of disheartening to me that neither dog can be "recognized" as anything (other than a failure?) if they don't engage in SCH?

Honestly, I'm feeling pretty bummed about this.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Don't feel bummed Chelle! I had a white GSD mix and he was the love of my life. One of the best dogs ever. I'm forever thankful for whoever bred (accidental or not) my dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

chelle said:


> So, following that logic, all GSD's (white or otherwise) should be engaged in SCH and if they're not, or if they're not capable, not well suited, they should not have been bred in the first place?


No, the good Captain didn't say "Make sure my Shepherd remains a SchHIII, he said make sure my Shepherd remains a working dog.




chelle said:


> And if we don't, the entire breed fails? This breed, white or not, cannot or should not be bred to be more of a family companion? To have less drive and more family oriented suitibility?


 Many of us believe (myself included) that once the dog no longer has the desire, ability, and-- yes-- drive to work, it's not a German Shepherd anymore. It's just a dog. I don't think every breeder and every dog needs to compete in Schutzhund, but I do believe every dog needs to be _capable_ of doing it. Certainly not at the top levels of competition, but should be capable of doing the work. 



chelle said:


> If these things are the general opinons of the masses, I probably don't truly belong here. I don't want really strong drive. I don't want to do SCH. I'm very pleased with the gentle nature of my son's WGSD and, so far, her son. This is pleasing to me, but it is kind of disheartening to me that neither dog can be "recognized" as anything (other than a failure?) if they don't engage in SCH?


Again, I'm not talking only about Schutzhund. I'm talking about dogs that are capable of being the all-around, utilitarian working dogs that Captain Max envisioned them to be. NOT sweet, undriven, low-energy animals. 


Then again, many forget that the definition of drive isn't lots of unfocused energy; it's the desire to work with a human and do a good job.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Too late to edit.

Because of that guy over 100 years ago, the breed we love has, deep in its DNA, the traits of alertness, watchfulness, protectiveness, and aloofness towards strangers. We see that those traits can very easily become shyness, skittishness, and fear aggression if the dogs are not appropriately evaluated. It takes a lot of experience and objectivity to evaluate which of one's dogs are alert, watchful, protective, and aloof without tending towards any sign of weak nerves. Many people can't do it.  

Thus, _working_ with the dogs gives the breeder a much better way-- certainly not a foolproof way, but not a better way-- to maintain the desired traits in the breed and not sacrifice nerve. 

From being in rescue, I've seen that this breed is overrun with shy, weak-nerved dogs that were primarily bred to be pets. This leads me to believe that in the German Shepherd dog, something besides breeding pet to pet needs to be done in order to ward off shyness, skittishness, and fear aggression.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> They're called White Swiss Shepherds because Agatha Burch brought white Shepherds back from the US and Canada to Switzerland (where she lived) and started a breeding program. They pushed to make them a separate breed because the SV does not recognize them due to their color.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Belgian Shepherds are 4 different breeds (Malinois, Tervuren, Laekenois and Groenendael) and they're the same dog with different coat types. Corgis are recognized as two separate breeds, the Pembroke and the Cardigan Welsh Corgi. Lots of breeds are.


I still see it as pointless. All the Belgians look relatively different, and if someone were to see them without knowing the name would think they are all different. The ONLY difference between a White German Shepherd and a Black and Tan German Shepherd and a Black German Shepherd, and Sable German Shepherd, and Black and Red German Shepherd is COLOR. They are all GSDs. I still see it as pointless as they are the exact same dog, with the only difference being color.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks Emoore for the responses. 

Chelle-
Yes, I'm sorry. A dog can't prove it's working ability, it shouldn't be bred. End of story. I never said SchH is the only way to prove that working ability...you did. No, I don't think that pets who have a CGC and the most pressure they've ever had put on them is walking through a crowd of people should be bred. Period. 

That's fine that you don't want a strong drive dog. You shouldn't be breeding. Not every dog is going to be a really strong drive dog. That's fine. But your pet dogs should not be reproducing. 

And P.S. Since when can't a strong, hard, drivey dog be a good family companion as well? In fact, they should be.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

gagsd said:


> White is not found in all German Shepherd Dogs.
> I
> White dogs do not necessarily have anymore issues than standard colored dogs. Many white GSD breeders pay close attention to health and genetics.
> 
> Poor nerves come in all lines. Health issues come in all lines. It is more important, IMO, to look at the breeder and the pedigree, than the lines.


Does anyone know of some reputable breeders of Working Lines that have white pop us in their lines more frequently. If these breeders do have white in their lines do they make breeding choices that lessen the chance of producing white? 
Since white is not disqualified from Schutzhund or other venues than it seems more WL breeders would be happy to have whites than SL who breed for conformation.

For me color is last on my list when choosing a dog. Health and temperament (suited for my life) is primary. I do think a GSD should have a GSD tempermant ( desire to work, courageous, protective when needed),aloof with strangers, able to tell a threat from a non threat etc.
My dream dog would with the righthandling be able and enjoy doing schutzhund, herding be able to earn a CGC, and also pass a public access test and be a service or guide dog.

I would not want a GSD of any color that had the temperament of a golden or a borzoi or a pitbull .

I think the white color is beautiful but after having a mostly white borzoi who comes back from a play session full of dirt and grass stains, while my black and tan Benny still looks pristine makes me glad Jake is DH's dog


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Thanks Emoore for the responses.
> 
> Chelle-
> Yes, I'm sorry. A dog can't prove it's working ability, it shouldn't be bred. End of story. I never said SchH is the only way to prove that working ability...you did. No, I don't think that pets who have a CGC and the most pressure they've ever had put on them is walking through a crowd of people should be bred. Period.
> ...


I'm on the phone, so impossible to say all I want to. Your post comes across as snotty and you've taken me out of context, as well as attributing some things to me that I never said.


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## MamaTank (Nov 27, 2011)

gagsd said:


> No problem.
> Sorry if I come off as rude, I only mean to be "to the point."


Not a problem... was really tired that day, haha. This getting up at 4:15 AM every morning thing is killing me.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> That's fine that you don't want a strong drive dog. You shouldn't be breeding. Not every dog is going to be a really strong drive dog. That's fine. But your pet dogs should not be reproducing.


I have to agree with this; there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with wanting a lower-drive, sweet, calm dog and there is nothing "bad" about a sweet, calm, low-drive dog. In fact, most such dogs make perfect pets. But I agree that, in order to be bred, they need to have MORE than that. The GSD is supposed to be a WORKING breed, and if the dog has neither the ability nor desire to work, that dog should be in a wonderful, loving pet home where he or she will be enjoyed for what he or she is... NOT as a breeding animal.


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## Ninamarie (Feb 14, 2010)

I have a WGS Chewy he is awsome. Great personality and is a talker. Loves my boys and is good natured all around.


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## Judahsmom (Mar 2, 2011)

*are whites different?*

Judah is a white german shepherd. He is 16 months old. He has a great temperment. He is also my service dog as a diabetic alert dog. He gave me my first alert at 4 months old. He only continues to improve. He has his CGC. He is great in public...he loves dogs and people. I wouldn't trade him for the world. He is very intelligent, learning in nano seconds. If someone tried to tell me he was "less than" the black/tan shepherds, I would have them meet Judah and then try and tell me that. I guess I'm in a the camp that thinks the only difference is the color.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I don't think every breeder and every dog needs to compete in Schutzhund, but I do believe every dog needs to be _capable_ of doing it.


This is a little confusing. 
How will you know your dog is capable of doing Schutzhund if they aren't doing it? 
Are you saying they should take part in the training but don't have to do it on a competitive level or, are you saying there are other ways to test the working ability of the dog?

Not trying to give you hard time just trying to clarify what you mean.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Whiteshepherds said:


> This is a little confusing.
> How will you know your dog is capable of doing Schutzhund if they aren't doing it? .


I have no idea, but there are well-respected folks on the forum who say they can and do. I have no idea how they do it, but I'm certainly not going to call them liars.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Freestep said:


> I have to agree with this; there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with wanting a lower-drive, sweet, calm dog and there is nothing "bad" about a sweet, calm, low-drive dog. In fact, most such dogs make perfect pets. But I agree that, in order to be bred, they need to have MORE than that. The GSD is supposed to be a WORKING breed, and if the dog has neither the ability nor desire to work, that dog should be in a wonderful, loving pet home where he or she will be enjoyed for what he or she is... NOT as a breeding animal.


:thumbup:


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Emoore said:


> No, the good Captain didn't say "Make sure my Shepherd remains a SchHIII, he said make sure my Shepherd remains a working dog.
> 
> Many of us believe (myself included) that once the dog no longer has the desire, ability, and-- yes-- drive to work, it's not a German Shepherd anymore. It's just a dog. I don't think every breeder and every dog needs to compete in Schutzhund, but I do believe every dog needs to be _capable_ of doing it. Certainly not at the top levels of competition, but should be capable of doing the work.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Emoore, great post, so well worded, I do appreciate that.

Maybe part of my "confusion" is in part to misinterpreting what people call "drive." When you say the above, (desire to work with a human....) I see that trait as far more desirable. Maybe I was thinking of it as the former, rather than the latter, I'm not sure... but I'm glad you said it that way.



Emoore said:


> Too late to edit.
> 
> Because of that guy over 100 years ago, *the breed we love has, deep in its DNA, the traits of alertness, watchfulness, protectiveness, and aloofness towards strangers.* We see that those traits can very easily become shyness, skittishness, and fear aggression if the dogs are not appropriately evaluated. It takes a lot of experience and objectivity to evaluate which of one's dogs are alert, watchful, protective, and aloof without tending towards any sign of weak nerves. Many people can't do it.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks for this as well, you're making this make *much* more sense to me. Certainly the strongest and most desirable traits in a GSD are not ones you'd want to "breed out." (alertness, watchfulness, protectiveness, and aloofness towards strangers). I really never intended to say those traits should be bred out or were undesirable in any way. They are what makes a GSD a GSD...!? 



GSDElsa said:


> Chelle-
> Yes, I'm sorry. A dog can't prove it's working ability, it shouldn't be bred. End of story. *I never said SchH is the only way to prove that working ability...you did.*


Please show me where **I** said that.



GSDElsa said:


> No, I don't think that pets who have a CGC and the most pressure they've ever had put on them is walking through a crowd of people should be bred. Period.


This conversation wasn't *really* about breeding, but I guess you can go that route if you wish.



GSDElsa said:


> That's fine that you don't want a strong drive dog. You shouldn't be breeding. Not every dog is going to be a really strong drive dog. That's fine. But your pet dogs should not be reproducing.


*I* shouldn't be breeding? Wth?? When did I say I wished to do that? Thanks for the follow up with the "your pet dogs should not be reproducing," -- guess you needed to state that twice to make sure it stuck? Gee, darn, I had all these plans to stud Bailey out and make big bucks selling his offspring at WalMart. You've ruined it all for me.



GSDElsa said:


> And P.S. Since when can't a strong, hard, drivey dog be a good family companion as well?


Here's what I ACTUALLY said: _"And no, no, no, I'm not saying a SCH dog won't be a wonderful family companion. Just that a less drivey dog would be easier for many families to raise and manage."_

I'll stand by my statement. Perhaps you should actually read the post in its entirety before spouting off.



Freestep said:


> I have to agree with this; there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with wanting a lower-drive, sweet, calm dog and there is nothing "bad" about a sweet, calm, low-drive dog. In fact, most such dogs make perfect pets. But I agree that, in order to be bred, they need to have MORE than that. The GSD is supposed to be a WORKING breed, and if the dog has neither the ability nor desire to work, that dog should be in a wonderful, loving pet home where he or she will be enjoyed for what he or she is... NOT as a breeding animal.


Emoore helped me understand the word "drive" better than I apparently did. I suppose then, under her explanation, I do NOT want a "low" drive dog. I want to work with my dog. I want us to be a team in whatever work we choose to pursue in the future. I don't want a dog that lays on the couch all day and that's a good thing, because that surely is NOT what Bailey wants to do. Yet I also value good temperment and a sweet disposition VERY highly. Can you have both? I don't know, but so far we do... but we're so early in the game. Heck, we've only completed basic obedience.  This dog, for as young as he is, has focus that amazes me. I want to capitalize on that and take it as far as possible with whatever sport we can. (You folks call it "work" - but is "work" and "sport" basically the same thing?) 

To the OP - I'm sorry your post sorta went off course and sorry for my part of that. I hope you aren't scared away from the whites with some of the negativity towards them.


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

I am fond of the whites,I think they are beautiful.The white gsds I have been around all were very stable dogs with great temperments.(Knew 3 of them-all owned by differant people)One had ''ear issues'' but other than than they were all healthy dogs in regaurds to hips,coat/skin,etc.They all reached old age.I saw NO differance in temperments and drives to their colored counterparts.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Chelle....no worries. Takes more than that to scare me. I just didn't get involved with any breeder talk, because it wasn't what I came to ask for. I truly believe they are no different...perhaps some breeders have strayed from the standard and emphasized the color...but that doesn't mean all have. I also believe if a breeder fails to breed for the whole package, that is the fault of the breeder,not of the dog as a whole. So it is one of those cases, you need to take dog by dog.

PS Thank you for everyone who has shared their experiences with Whites, I appreciate it. 
Everyones advice gave me a lot to think about.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Nothing against whites, but I've not personally seen one able to do bitework and have personally seen several that couldn't


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## mirlacca (Mar 15, 2006)

Two comments with regard to Schutzhund and WGSDs:
1) Shaftoe's Tasha, ScH III, AD, WH (see White German Shepherd Dog Club International, Inc.™ for details; this dog qualified in Germany).
2) The United Schutzhund Club of America legislates specifically against any dog which does not meet the GSD breed standard, e.g., <i>
No member’s dog may be bred that does not conform to the USA Standard for the German
Shepherd Dog and free of disqualifying faults. Furthermore, a member’s dog may not be bred to​any other dog that does not conform to this standard.</i>

This being the case, it is not particularly amazing that few white dogs qualify for Schutzhund status. It is annoying to see the circular logic that claims that "they can't because they don't" when, in fact, perhaps they DON'T because under current rules they CAN'T.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If somebody has a white GSD with the temperament.... Send it here! I would love to train and title a white in schutzhund.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Nothing against whites, but I've not personally seen one able to do bitework and have personally seen several that couldn't


We can't all be perfect dog park candidates, either. 



mirlacca said:


> It is annoying to see the circular logic that claims that "they can't because they don't" when, in fact, perhaps they DON'T because under current rules they CAN'T.


:thumbup:


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

mirlacca said:


> Two comments with regard to Schutzhund and WGSDs:
> 1) Shaftoe's Tasha, ScH III, AD, WH (see White German Shepherd Dog Club International, Inc.™ for details; this dog qualified in Germany).
> 2) The United Schutzhund Club of America legislates specifically against any dog which does not meet the GSD breed standard, e.g., <i>
> No member’s dog may be bred that does not conform to the USA Standard for the German
> ...


UScA won't let you breed them... Doesn't mean you can't trial one in a UScA event.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

chelle said:


> Emoore helped me understand the word "drive" better than I apparently did. I suppose then, under her explanation, I do NOT want a "low" drive dog. I want to work with my dog. I want us to be a team in whatever work we choose to pursue in the future. I don't want a dog that lays on the couch all day and that's a good thing, because that surely is NOT what Bailey wants to do. Yet I also value good temperment and a sweet disposition VERY highly. Can you have both? I don't know, but so far we do... but we're so early in the game. Heck, we've only completed basic obedience.  This dog, for as young as he is, has focus that amazes me. I want to capitalize on that and take it as far as possible with whatever sport we can. (You folks call it "work" - but is "work" and "sport" basically the same thing?)
> 
> To the OP - I'm sorry your post sorta went off course and sorry for my part of that. I hope you aren't scared away from the whites with some of the negativity towards them.


Actually, I don't agree with Emoore's definition of drive. Drive is not willingness to work with people. That is the dogs biddability. "Drive" is the dogs motivation and determination. Prey drive is how motivated the dog is to chase and kill prey. Defense drive is how motivated and determined the dog is to fight and defend itself. Pack drive is how motivated the dog is to participate and be a member of its pack...

A high drive dog is a highly motivated dog that goes after what it does with determination.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

mirlacca said:


> Two comments with regard to Schutzhund and WGSDs:
> 1) Shaftoe's Tasha, ScH III, AD, WH (see White German Shepherd Dog Club International, Inc.™ for details; this dog qualified in Germany).
> 2) The United Schutzhund Club of America legislates specifically against any dog which does not meet the GSD breed standard, e.g., <i>
> No member’s dog may be bred that does not conform to the USA Standard for the German
> ...


And that's just a flat out lie. There is absolutely NOTHING from preventing ANY breed from competing in SchH. Just because they have a fault does not prevent them from competing in SchH and getting titles. ANY dog can do it. You just do not REGISTER them as a GSD. There is a plethora of other breeds in USCA that most certainly are not GSD's and therefore to do come anywhere close to the breed standard that have babies every day.

Excuses, excuses.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I have a question related....but not on the topic of whether or not they can do SCH. If someone were to import a White Swiss Shepherd....which has been stated are white GSD, just a name change. Could they register it with the AKC as a GSD?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a few questions about the USCA. Can a white GSD participate as a GSD or must it participate as a "mixed breed dog" because of the color fault? Must "mixed breed dogs" be spayed/neutered to recieve titles?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Andaka said:


> I have a few questions about the USCA. Can a white GSD participate as a GSD or must it participate as a "mixed breed dog" because of the color fault? Must "mixed breed dogs" be spayed/neutered to recieve titles?


No they don't have to be fixed. The UScA rules above are for breeding only. The rules above are the UScA breeding rules, not their SchH/trial rules


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

mysweetkaos said:


> I have a question related....but not on the topic of whether or not they can do SCH. If someone were to import a White Swiss Shepherd....which has been stated are white GSD, just a name change. Could they register it with the AKC as a GSD?


I don't know the technical answer. My guess would be no, because it's a "different" breed regardless of it's background. 

I wish I could remember who told me this, but someone imported one and was able to register it in roundabout way ... The swiss dog was registered, then it was registered in another country that allows the switch as a GSD, then imported and registered with AKC as a GSD.


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## mirlacca (Mar 15, 2006)

>The lack of whites doing SchH is not due to any organizational by-laws. It is due to a lack of interest by the owners of whites, lack of temperament suitable for the work in the dogs, or most likely a combination of both as with all bloodlines over time the interest and priorities of the fanciers and breeders affects the dogs themselves and what traits the lines possess and lack. 

Or possibly because the owners of white dogs are made to feel distinctly unwelcome by others in the club. Judging by some of the remarks I have seen here, I think that is a very real possibility.


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## mirlacca (Mar 15, 2006)

*>>It is annoying to see the circular logic that claims that "they can't because they don't" when, in fact, perhaps they DON'T because under current rules they CAN'T.*
>And that's just a flat out lie. 

And this is a perfect example of the warm and welcoming attitude of the members of the club--when I quote the rules and say "perhaps" this might be a reason, I am called a liar. 

I rest my case.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have known many people in SchH training GSDs, Boxers, Dobes and Rotts who didn't really have suitable temperament, but were welcome to try regardless of their color or pedigree. And beyond that plenty of mixed breeds of unknown heritage including shelter mutts, retrievers, terriers, and even a couple of hounds. And this is not at just one club, but at many clubs. Do you honestly think the clubs that welcome all of those dogs, including mutts, off breeds and unsuitable members of working breeds wouldn't give someone with a white a chance if they showed up? Sure, some clubs wouldn't and won't take any dog that isn't of proven breeds and suitable temperament, but a whole lot of clubs are welcoming to anyone who wants to give it a try, regardless of the breed or color of their dog. Some clubs will discriminate sure, but certainly not all. 

And yes, to say that whites can't do SchH because some rule doesn't allow it is NOT at all accurate. There is no such rule whatsoever. If a white owner truly wanted to try, they could find a willing club to do it with. Though it seems so often it's easier for people to make an excuse than put forth the effort.


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