# Is my dog too submissive?



## smby (Sep 3, 2015)

I have an 11 month old female Czech German Shepherd. High food/prey drive, smart and strong. All the good traits you can expect from this breed except one thing: too submissive. Every time she sees other dogs, she runs into them, roll underneath them, with her tail wagging, and her ears completely flattened. She will also try to lick other dogs face, sometimes making some high pitch noise -- not sure if this is due to excitement or submissiveness though. When I play fetch with her with other dogs, she will drop the toy to the ground if any dog run towards her, or hesitated to pick up the toy if there are other dogs around her. The submissive behavior apply to people as well. When she is home, she will bark and being very alert when she heard noise from outside, but immediately when the visitors came in, she will wag tail, flatten her ears, and try to make out with them.

I am not sure if this is something I can correct/improve, or something I just have to accept. I did a lot of obedience training with her, and I worked hard on establish dominance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

What exactly is the problem? My male is extremely dominant and very much a bully with other dogs so much so that he cannot interact with strange dogs. I'd much rather him do what your dog is doing. As long as she's not submissive peeing then I don't personally think there's much of an issue here.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Be patient. Let her grow up. Be careful about letting her be around dogs that may be insecure themselves and would pick on her. Don't create competitions with other dogs like with fetch. Play with her by yourself.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

smby said:


> I did a lot of obedience training with her, and I worked hard on establish dominance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


I agree with Steve, furthermore could you clarify "how you worked hard to establish dominance" ?

Most Handlers/owners work hard to establish a Bond, not dominance.

Kim


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## smby (Sep 3, 2015)

1. Once we got her back from the breeder, we started the feeding ritual immediately: we always eat first before she eats, right in front of her. That last about 2 months. She also have to stay still until we release her to eat. We occasionally stop her eating and take her bowl away and she need to stay calm(we don't do that often now). 

2. I usually use alpha roll to correct her, or punish her when she misbehave. 

3. I do leash training with her regularly and very strict about not letting her walking ahead of me (I use chock chain for the training and not hesitated to correct her).

Is it possible that I was being too strict on her? I thought if we don't build the dominance and good obedience on her early, there will be more problems when she gets older and more rebellious.




Pirates Lair said:


> I agree with Steve, furthermore could you clarify "how you worked hard to establish dominance" ?
> 
> Most Handlers/owners work hard to establish a Bond, not dominance.
> 
> Kim


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## smby (Sep 3, 2015)

I think being submissive is not a complete bad thing, as it is a necessary communication skill in the pack. However, showing too much submissive to all the other dogs may reflect her insecurity and lack of confidence. I don't want her to be a bully either, but I think she should be more brave and self-constraint. I would love to see her stand up for herself more and not afraid to accept challenges.



Carriesue said:


> What exactly is the problem? My male is extremely dominant and very much a bully with other dogs so much so that he cannot interact with strange dogs. I'd much rather him do what your dog is doing. As long as she's not submissive peeing then I don't personally think there's much of an issue here.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

I really don't think the "alpha roll" is a good idea. It doesn't teach the dog to respect or obey you, just fear what you can do.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Alpha rolling is used by self proclaimed trainers that think they can train a dog! And there are thousands of "Master Trainers" out there.

It is a ridiculous exercise for the dog. This may be a major part of the problem, as well as how hard you are correcting the dog on the C/C.

Everything runs down the leash, if you start off bullying your dog you are creating the problem. 

Let the dog just be a dog for a while and have some fun (within reason of course) 

I would suggest you start over and go back to basics, focus on building a Bond with your dog. A Bond is the most important thing for both of you.

You need to work together as a Team, the way you have been instructed is old school wrong. You need to establish that you are the Boss and the dog is a dog- but do it correctly.

Good luck

Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Another thing to remember is when you correct the dog on the choke it does should not involve strength , just a quick snap to get the dogs attention.

When the dog ceases the unwanted action that you corrected it for - you stop immediately - *and then praise the dog.*

Bad behavior results in a snap on the C/C - good behavior results in Praise.


Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

smby said:


> I think being submissive is not a complete bad thing, as it is a necessary communication skill in the pack. However, showing too much submissive to all the other dogs may reflect her insecurity and lack of confidence. I don't want her to be a bully either, but I think she should be more brave and self-constraint. I would love to see her stand up for herself more and not afraid to accept challenges.


One more thing, were not talking about *"the pack"* ,were talking about a human and their dog.

It is your job to teach her to stand up for herself and not be afraid to accept challenges, start by providing her with easy obtainable objectives or goals.

Maybe some basic agility, make it lots of fun for her and gradually increase the level of difficulty.


Kim


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## smby (Sep 3, 2015)

Pirates Lair said:


> Another thing to remember is when you correct the dog on the choke it does should not involve strength , just a quick snap to get the dogs attention.
> 
> When the dog ceases the unwanted action that you corrected it for - you stop immediately - *and then praise the dog.*
> 
> ...


Thanks! I do praise her immediately when she stop the unwanted behavior. But I think I can do better on not using too much strength. She is very strong and when she is getting aroused and being too excited, it feels natural to use more force on the collar. 

I work from home usually and have the leisure to spend a lot of time with her, either training or playing. I didn't do anything specific to bond with her. Any suggestions on what can I do to strengthen our bond?


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

smby said:


> Thanks! I do praise her immediately when she stop the unwanted behavior. But I think I can do better on not using too much strength. She is very strong and when she is getting aroused and being too excited, it feels natural to use more force on the collar.
> 
> I work from home usually and have the leisure to spend a lot of time with her, either training or playing. I didn't do anything specific to bond with her. Any suggestions on what can I do to strengthen our bond?


If done properly with very little strength the C/C will make a crisp snap sound (assuming it is on the correct way, a lot of people put them on backwards) and your loud voice saying leave that, or heel or sit or whatever it is she is doing wrong.

Then a nice pleasant sing song praise "good girl, good sit" and move on.


To build a Bond start doing fun things, play with her, toss a ball for a while - no corrections during play time. Pick up a cheap agility tunnel and teach her to use it, if she does not go in there are many ways to get her in to the tunnel.

You can crawl in and coax her to you, start feeding her in the tunnel etc.
You start by putting her food bowl in front of the tunnel and gradually over time keep moving it in more.

*You may also want to consider doing a short 5 minute OB session then go play, this way she will anticipate the fun play time with you.
*

You can also play with her with a flirt pole or a rag.

Give it a try

Good luck

Kim


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Pirates Lair said:


> Alpha rolling is used by self proclaimed trainers that think they can train a dog! And there are thousands of "Master Trainers" out there.


A friend of mine does this with his husky/malamute mix, along with a "submit" command. I cringe every time I see it. The dog does flop on its back, but actually submitting could not be further from its mind.

Luckily for him the dog has always been very friendly and good natured "out of the box," so to speak.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

yuriy said:


> A friend of mine does this with his husky/malamute mix, along with a "submit" command. I cringe every time I see it. The dog does flop on its back, but actually submitting could not be further from its mind.
> 
> Luckily for him the dog has always been very friendly and good natured "out of the box," so to speak.


Your friend is very lucky, most Malamutes have great strength and no patience for certain types of people.


Kim


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Pirates Lair said:


> Your friend is very lucky, most Malamutes have great strength and no patience for certain types of people.
> 
> 
> Kim


I suspect there's more husky than malamute in that dog - he's a bit smaller than my girl, but also calmer and generally more submissive (my girl tends to push him around when they play fight). He's a nice fella.

I've also got a neighbour with a pure Malamute that I'd estimate to be around 130-140lbs. The dog is absolutely untrained and the guy that owns it has exactly ZERO control over it. Furthermore, the dog is constantly off leash, running across roads, causing dog fights, toppling people over, etc. - lots of fun. I've talked to the owner a half dozen times, with the last few talks being very heated, and there's no change. A bunch of "sorry, sorry" at the time, and then back to the status quo the next day. 

I've seen this dog drag the owner 5-10 metres across a grass field while the guy was on his belly, holding on to the leash and screaming at the dog; it was both incredibly humorous and incredibly sad. Some people just shouldn't have dogs.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

yuriy said:


> Some people just shouldn't have dogs.


 
Or children


Kim


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WOW!!! Boy, I have seen it all this weekend! The fact that you can "Alpha roll"" this dog at will??

Says...you don't need to be "Alpha" rolling this dog! Please stop doing that! 

What I seem to be saying a lot this weekend, is, "stop and think about what you are doing!"

In order to help you further that process all the things I would suggest you at least become "aware" of are in this post!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7218130-post15.html

It has links to threads that you should read! Sound advice has been given and I can provide some specific! Free of Alpha Rolling I might add! 

Welcome aboard.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> WOW!!! Boy, I have seen it all this weekend! The fact that you can "Alpha roll"" this dog at will??
> 
> Says...you don't need to be "Alpha" rolling this dog! Please stop doing that!
> 
> ...




This is why speeding through an "Elementary School Zone" should be legal, young kids "Stop, Look, and Listen" before crossing the street.

High School kids will walk out into an Intersection while texting on their phone and not even look, because they know everything and they have a sense of entitlement.

Their dogs folks, they rely on you to provide food, water, shelter and hopefully some Common Sense!


Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm done Chip, you have more patience than I do. LOL

Good luck

Kim


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

I'm not sure why people assume that submissive behavior = lack of confidence.

My dog is SUPER submissive, but still very friendly and confident. Heck, she's more confident than most of the dogs I know - dominant personalities included! 

So as long as your dog doesn't have any confidence issues, then I don't see why them being so submissive is a problem.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Augustine said:


> I'm not sure why people assume that submissive behavior = lack of confidence.
> 
> My dog is SUPER submissive, but still very friendly and confident. Heck, she's more confident than most of the dogs I know - dominant personalities included!
> 
> So as long as your dog doesn't have any confidence issues, then I don't see why them being so submissive is a problem.


Read all of the Post and you might understand


Kim


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> I'm done Chip, you have more patience than I do. LOL
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Kim


AH HA now maybe you get why a Boxer background is an "asset!"

I'll show you how it's done!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

smby said:


> I didn't do anything specific to bond with her. Any suggestions on what can I do to strengthen our bond?


 Yes, as I stated, everything you need to know is in the post I linked to!

If you are not going to read anything?? Then I don't quite understand the point of you being here??

Nonetheless in an effort to meet you half-way and giving you credit for asking a "Specific question!"

Sigh, I will pull out the answer for you! And you can and should do this! And I'll add don't worry about it if "you" don't see the point! It's what it does for your dog that is important!

Energy - it's all about confid-tude

How was that???


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> AH HA now maybe you get why a Boxer background is an "asset!"
> 
> I'll show you how it's done!


 Maybe I like you because when my Great Dane got me I was actually looking for a Boxer!

You all think raising GSD pups is challenging? Try a Dane!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

#1. Take all your Cesar Millan vids and burn them in your back yard.

Your dog is a dog, she is not a wolf, she does not live in a dog pack. You are a human, not a dog or a wolf. She knows this. You are like her god. She respects you even though you are acting like a bully to her, because she knows you are the human and in charge of all that is good or necessary.

Stop playing games with the food dish -- that causes a lot more problems than it prevents. You can always crate your dog, put the food down, and open the crate. If she were to be at all food-aggressive, you could always feed her in her crate. But food aggressiveness is either there or it isn't, and if it the tendency toward it is there, than playing games with the food is more likely to cause her to have a problem with it. 

Put the food down. She knows you are the one that opens the bag or the can. That is all she needs to know. Eating first doesn't do anything about her perception of where she is on the totem pole. But if the routine is comfortable for everyone, there is no reason to change it. It is better to eat first and not feed from the table, than to have a bunch of bad habits, that can be annoying, and unpleasant to fix.

The dog is a puppy. She is submissive. This is probably just her normal state. She is friendly and giving calming (not a threat signal) to other dogs. This is fine too. It is what she is. With a naturally submissive dog, you have no purpose in all that dominance crap. She is submissive, and that stuff is likely to make her more so. 

On the other hand, if she lacks confidence (not the same thing) changing things up all at once can make her even less confident. A confident dog accepts changes and goes forward. A dog who lacks confidence can shut down and become nervous if hit with a lot of change all at once. What you can do, is give her a predictable routine, and lighten up on your voice, choice of collars, and corrections. 

Play with your dog. Get down on the ground with a squeaky toy. Throw it for her, play with it with her, get physical with play, keep your voice happy, and end the game when she wants more. Do this often. Build on what she likes.

Study your dog. Make the choices for her that will help her reach her potential. 

Don't focus much on what is done. Instead, consider what things you think would be better if you change.

Hepzibah was VERY submissive at 11 months. I have a lot of dogs. I never eat first, in front of them. I do not use choke chains. I give very few corrections, and try to keep things very positive. I do not over train -- that is an understatement. I do not play with food dishes. And Hepsi at eleven months was VERY submissive. That is what she is/was naturally.

Hepsi is now 3 1/2. She is loving and affectionate. Loves to play with my nieces. Loves toys. Today she was starting stronger play with Cujo which I stopped because I did not want it to escalate. She has given Babs (10 year old bitch) what for, and Babs needed to see the vet. She will stick up for herself with Cujo. She will steal food right out of his mouth. So with maturity, she is asserting herself. 

Don't worry over-much. I would cut out the dominance stuff because it is over-kill and will not help her to be less submissive or more confident. 

I think that when you have 1-2 dogs, it is important for the dog to fit the image we have in our mind for them. When you have a passel of dogs, you have less need for that, and you can accept dogs for whom they are, and cater your training and expectations for them with respect to who they are. 

Good luck.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Maybe I like you because when my Great Dane got me I was actually looking for a Boxer!
> 
> You all think raising GSD pups is challenging? Try a Dane!


Well both are dogs of Molosser world but...yeah!  
Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)

Daughter in law had a Dane, it was a rescue and was a lot hard world! Serious separation anxiety and the solution that worked for her after two years of struggle and a lot of damage to home and vehicles! Was...a little 6 lb Chi-Terrier Mix!! The Dane fell instantly in Luv all problems were gone! And they were hysterical together! 

But yes that is a serious amount of "Dogage" as it were! Like having a small horse in the house, I would imagine!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

My moms dog lab/Australian Shepherd mix as a pup was that way with other dogs. Very submissive would roll on her back when around other dogs. I thought she did play the submissive card around other dogs even though it was not her nature. She did grow up and her confidence grew and no longer has to bow down to the big guys. She is a healthy happy,confident ,social girl. Keep her away from dog parks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> My moms dog lab/Australian Shepherd mix as a pup was that way with other dogs. Very submissive would roll on her back when around other dogs. I thought she did play the submissive card around other dogs even though it was not her nature. She did grow up and her confidence grew and no longer has to bow down to the big guys. She is a healthy happy,confident ,social girl. Keep her away from dog parks.


 The Dog Park warning is also, good advise! And if they read the threads and the links... I posted I covered that also.

I'm very thorough even if a bit wordy! :crazy:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have no doubt chip!!!always great links


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well both are dogs of Molosser world but...yeah!
> Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)
> 
> Daughter in law had a Dane, it was a rescue and was a lot hard world! Serious separation anxiety and the solution that worked for her after two years of struggle and a lot of damage to home and vehicles! Was...a little 6 lb Chi-Terrier Mix!! The Dane fell instantly in Luv all problems were gone! And they were hysterical together!
> ...


 Both breeds are serious clowns, love their people and like to get 'in your face' for luvin'. Danes are notorious for separation anxiety.

I'm still a bit disturbed by the Alpha thing, 
OP could you stop treating your dog like a lesser being and start treating her like a friend and companion? That might solve a lot of issues for you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Both breeds are serious clowns, love their people and like to get 'in your face' for luvin'. Danes are notorious for separation anxiety.


 Thanks did not know that. You can never tell what can come in handy to know one day.




Sabis mom said:


> I'm still a bit disturbed by the Alpha thing,
> OP could you stop treating your dog like a lesser being and start treating her like a friend and companion? That might solve a lot of issues for you.


As are many of us! But hopefully, some of all of "this" has gotten through?? 

Just as a general rule of thumb... when enough people with experience seem to suggest that "perhaps one might want to reconsider what they are doing?? Then maybe, perhaps... it's time to "reconsider what one is doing??

Just a thought.


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## smby (Sep 3, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well both are dogs of Molosser world but...yeah!
> Molossers breeds (Molosser dogs, Molossers, Mastiff breeds)
> 
> Daughter in law had a Dane, it was a rescue and was a lot hard world! Serious separation anxiety and the solution that worked for her after two years of struggle and a lot of damage to home and vehicles! Was...a little 6 lb Chi-Terrier Mix!! The Dane fell instantly in Luv all problems were gone! And they were hysterical together!
> ...


Thanks you! I've watched many of the videos from the youtube playlist and already practiced some of the techniques. 

About the alpha roll-- what I used to do is just grab her fur on the neck and pin her down to the side. After reading you guys suggestions, I did some research on this myself and realize this is not necessary. I stopped doing that for a long time already, and will continue to avoid doing that in the future. 

I took your advice of playing with her using flirt pole---she absolutely loves it!

I am also considering joining a local agility class. I am not sure how much commitment it requires, so I will check it out first.

Again, thank you all for the wonderful suggestions!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

smby said:


> * I stopped doing that for a long time already, and will continue to avoid doing that in the future.
> *


 That's what you should have led with and how you should have posted! Welcome abaoard!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Augustine*
> _*I'm not sure why people assume that submissive behavior = lack of confidence.*
> 
> ...


Could very well be a young dog thing... which "can be" completely normal and smart on their part.. Once the dog grows and matures, you may see a different behavior? 

Like someone else suggested.. Be patient, let her grow up and watch who and what she interacts with..

OR could it be a "learned" behavior from it's handler? In how he or she has interacted with this young dog in it's formative stage???


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I left out the main reason I bolded the quote.. Because I agree too that submission doesn't always mean the dog lacks confidence...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

G-burg said:


> I left out the main reason I bolded the quote.. Because I agree too that submission doesn't always mean the dog lacks confidence...


Well you still covered it is essence, ...it's about management!


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