# my GSD growls at me when I try to pick up her tug toy



## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

Juno. 13 months old. Female; intact; ball motivated; possessive.

ok, so I have had a difficult time teaching my girl to "out" and have reached out on this forum. She does so beautifully in the house and knows the difference between out and "in my hand". She lets me reach into her mouth to pull out things she shouldn't be eating (cardboard). 

When we are outside and playing fetch or tug, I say out and she drops the toy. Then I try to reach for it slowly, so not to snatch it from her. Lately, she has started to growl at me (softly with no raised hackles) and/or curl her lip. A few times, she feigns as if she wants to bite my hand. I wear ski gloves, I am not really worried per se. Maybe I am a fool? She's also invented this new game, where she will drop the toy, wait for me to approach and then dart and snatch. 

She does not growl at me inside the house and she's kinda looking at me sideways while she growls.

Is growling always a sign of aggression? Any advice on how I should handle this? Is this another phase of rebellion? This would be the second time.

I normally say "no" and wait for her to give me space to pick up the toy, which she eventually does. It can take about 30 - 60 seconds. I figure that as long as she is making the right choice in the end, she is learning.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

Lex only growls when she really really wants any of us to chase her and try to get her toy, she wags her tail and makes those weird moves.. she doesn’t have a mean bone in her. She is intact, 17 m.o.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That sideways look is trouble, often a precursor to a bite.What I would do is play two ball with her for the time being with two identical toys.Fetch,out,throw next toy immediately. If she has a favorite toy don't use that one.Many times this will eliminate the problem because the dog looks forward to a reward (another throw) when she outs.
The keep away game is fun for dogs and is how they play with other dogs.I do this with my dogs sometimes for fun but never during training.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> When we are outside and playing fetch or tug, I say out and she drops the toy. Then I try to reach for it slowly, so not to snatch it from her.


What you're doing here is probably the whole reason she's growling. You're basically challenging her for it and making her want to keep it away from you that much more. Have her bring it to you to play a little more, let her carry it for a little while, then calmly out her and end it calmly with a release. See if that helps take away some of the conflict.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rather than having her drop the tug and then you pick it up, have you worked on having her out it while you're still holding the other end? That would eliminate the keep away game she's playing.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Steve Strom 
When she brings it to me for play, how are we going to play? Tug? could you just explain a little more?

I understand the part about letting her carry it, but the only way to play if she has the toy is tug or keepaway, which is going to increase her possessiveness maybe.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Cassidy's Mom I have not. I will try.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm talking about tugging, but even in fetch, have her bring it to you rather then drop it. A couple of things you can try, first, keep a line on her and don't let her run away. Play a little tug with her, let go of it and back up 1 step or even less and encourage her to come towards you with it to tug a little more. Think about the rhythm of a waltz. Tug,tug,tug, let go, tug,tug,tug, let go. It starts encouraging her to push a toy to you instead of keep away to keep playing.

With fetch, toss it 3' and when she picks it up, back up a couple of steps encouraging her to bring it all the way back. The line is on her to keep her from taking it to the ground. If she tries, keep moving her around in a large circle and then try to have her come back into you with it.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

Ok, I understand. Think rhythm.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

@Steve Strom 
I was told about 80% win with tug and then outs with immediate release and outs with commands mixed into that remaining 20%. 

About what ratio would you suggest for a young dog to encourage pushing the toy at the handler?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CeraDean said:


> @Steve Strom
> I was told about 80% win with tug and then outs with immediate release and outs with commands mixed into that remaining 20%.
> 
> About what ratio would you suggest for a young dog to encourage pushing the toy at the handler?


Uhhh, ratios? Lol. I don't think that much about it to be honest CeraDean. If he outs clean, the rebite tends to be the big reward, so I probably do that more then thinking about letting him win.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Uhhh, ratios? Lol. I don't think that much about it to be honest CeraDean. If he outs clean, the rebite tends to be the big reward, so I probably do that more then thinking about letting him win.


What, no spreadsheet? 🤣

@JunoVonNarnia, I have seen great progress in outs with both the rhythm mentioned and two ball.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If he tugs really well @CeraDean, you can get him pushing into you with it by pushing him away. Similar to opposition reflex. Tug in his mouth, push on the ends with your hands. WIth Doc, I kinda throw him away, like at the 3min mark in this video.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Great advise so far... only thing to add - maybe have two tugs - brings one to you, outs on command, second tug gets thrown (Deldei's two hoses thing).


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> If he tugs really well @CeraDean, you can get him pushing into you with it by pushing him away. Similar to opposition reflex. Tug in his mouth, push on the ends with your hands. WIth Doc, I kinda throw him away, like at the 3min mark in this video.


That’s a magic place. Thanks for sharing. Interesting to bring in something similar to opposition reflex in tug. I’ll try that, still trying to get nice pushing into to me behavior.


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## Ohce (Jan 24, 2021)

I think the number one rule for fetch should be - the dog needs to work to get you to play. 

For preventing the game of keepaway : I have my dog convinced that fetch is a far more valuable game for her than me. It's her job to make me want to play. If my dog tries to play keep away - I turn my back and ignore her, and walk the other way. Game over. I don't chase her, yell at her to drop it, give it, bring it.... I walk away. I have enough value that whatever I am doing is way more interesting than what she is doing. Usually she quickly trots up beside me, the game of keepaway is no fun without an audience. I keep ignoring her until she shoves the ball in my hand. If she tries keep away twice, game over, no more fetch. I do this when I play with other people's dogs and 75% of the time, they follow me and try to convince me to play some more.

For lunging for the ball: My dogs highest value toy is a ball that is too big for her to pick up and return to my hand. I had issues with her lunging and nipping for the toy when I went to grab it to throw it, or after I picked it up. Not aggression, just excitement, but not ok. So i put her on a long line and let her drag it. When I wanted to kick or pick up the ball, I put her at a sit stay or down stay away from the toy, stepped on the line, then reached for the toy. Then quick step off the line, instantly release with her release word and throw. If she tried to stand before I got the toy, I stopped reaching, put her back into a stay and tried again. You can lead the dog further away with the line for the stay to make it easier for the dog. Eventually, the dog starts backing off and sitting/downing the moment they see you walking towards the toy, and you can start turning and walking away if they stand. Again, the dog is working to get me to play fetch, not me working to get the dog to play nicely. Me picking the toy up becomes closely associated with a reward for her stay. Eventually there is no need for a line to enforce the stay, but what I didn't want is my dog being able to reward herself with the ball for lunging and breaking a stay. Over time, I was able to hold the ball for a much longer time before throwing, have her stay while I wander around holding the toy, ask for a sit, down, heel, stand, etc before throwing, ask for a stay while I throw the ball, then release her to get it, etc. This is a great way to improve a dog's stay and position changes at a distance! But start small by just asking for the self control to back off and stay while you get the toy and instantly rewarding.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

But keepaway is great fun for both you and the dog!
Just not when you're trying to play fetch lol


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

I'm really frustrated by this. I've been trying to teach all of this: fetch/out/retrieve since she was a puppy. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I know I'm impatient! 

Here's my girl "outing" like the obedient shepherd she is! She plays beautifully with the neighbours. So it's def me, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong, which is frustrating me even more. 










End of rant. Thanks for listening.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Maintain possession of the toy/ball. Work on trading one toy for another toy. If she won't out a tug or ball on a rope for another, use food at first, something really yummy like pieces of string cheese or hot dog. Stick it right up to her nose, mark it when she releases the toy (which you're still holding the other end of), give her the food, and then play some more. Do this a lot, with a variety of toys. Build a strong foundation of giving up a toy for something equal or better. I even do it with low value bones (Nylabone, Benebone), where I hold onto one end while my dog chews, have her out it for a treat, then let her have it again. I did this with Halo when she was a puppy and she started bringing me bones to hold for her while she chewed them. I did it with Cava too, and she does the same.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I think it’s conflict rather than her not knowing the command. 
It happened to me at club last week. My boy has a beautiful out. Clean, fast. We’ve worked on it so much. But last week I asked for an out on the tug while on the field and he just didn’t. It was like his mind was blank. 

We decided he needed more wins on the tug and that tug on the field was different for him because I am so impatient to do OB.

So take a breath and find a way around the conflict rather than facing it head on. 
I know it’s frustrating.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I know I'm out of my depth here.
Why do you have to stick hot dog in the dog's face to enforce a command or not get growled at?
As an aside of course, many "growls" aren't really growls of warning but invitations to play.

I'm not in competition* but fetch, out, retrieve, drop, down, stay, come, sit, hold, stand, don't need treats for compliance (although I know how ubiquitous it is in competition) and I don't understand offering some cheese to distract/stop a dog growling at you or blowing you off.

*My only formal experience is agility where I was the only handler there not stuffing food in my dogs mouth and he was a star 

Is it an engagement thing?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I have a very possessive dog. I worked with him when he was very young and quickly extinguished the behavior with his toys (and food . although he will still growl at the cat in complaint if she gets nosy while he's eating). Outside, I use a chuck it and extra large balls. I also make it all about obedience as well. I sit the dog, throw the first ball (I wait until it stops rolling so he doesn't injure himself trying to intercept it), then I release him to get the ball. When he brings it back, I have him sit, I throw the second ball and he naturally drops the first (if he forgets I tell him aus), then I release him to go get the second.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

WNGD said:


> I know I'm out of my depth here.
> Why do you have to stick hot dog in the dog's face to enforce a command or not get growled at?


You don't, and I never suggested any such thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with being growled at. It's about going back to the very beginning to train the dog to let go of something on cue. 

Like many people, I use food _at first_ to show my dogs what I want. They have no idea what a verbal cue means until I teach them. I can stand there and say "out", "give", or "drop it", but until they know what those words represent they're going to just look at me. And if I'm holding the end of a tug and I want them to let go, I offer a treat. They drop their end of the toy to get the treat, I mark it, and release them to grab the toy again. I only use food as long as I need to, at some point the dog understands that letting go of the tug doesn't mean play is over, bringing the ball back and letting me have it doesn't mean we're done. Once they get that, I don't need food anymore, continuation of play is the reward.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> Juno. 13 months old. Female; intact; ball motivated; possessive.
> 
> ok, so I have had a difficult time teaching my girl to "out" and have reached out on this forum. She does so beautifully in the house and knows the difference between out and "in my hand". She lets me reach into her mouth to pull out things she shouldn't be eating (cardboard).
> 
> ...



Possession. Stop fighting with her. Instead of picking up the toy on the ground, have a second on in your hand. Down her. let her own the toy she has for a bit. Wait for her to drop it and look at you. When she does, reward her with the toy in your hand. This builds neutrality around the toys and will put the value on interacting with YOU. If this works with a super possessive dog and a helper 10' from her then it will work for the ball. 

My helper...."we want these dogs to fight and then we tell them 'but don't fight us'" 

Another option is to have two balls. She must bring the ball she has close enough to you for you to touch the string. When you touch the string, tell her YES! and make the ball in your hand active so she goes for that one. As soon as you see her release the ball in her mouth, tell her Out and let her have the one in your hand. Once she starts to get the game and voluntarily comes close enough for you to grab the ball, you can start telling her Out and throw the other ball OR you can play with her with the ball she has and let her win.

It's all really no different than the advice we give to not play with their food


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> I'm really frustrated by this. I've been trying to teach all of this: fetch/out/retrieve since she was a puppy. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I know I'm impatient!
> 
> Here's my girl "outing" like the obedient shepherd she is! She plays beautifully with the neighbours. So it's def me, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong, which is frustrating me even more.
> 
> ...


Even though we're all telling you the same thing, it could be too many different things to try at once. I think the root of the problem is really her outing the toy. Its a lot more difficult to clean that up with a ball then a tug. It may be better if you concentrate on just that for a while. The key is outing on command and biting on command or just you telling her its ok to. See if this helps:


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You don't, and I never suggested any such thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with being growled at. It's about going back to the very beginning to train the dog to let go of something on cue.
> 
> Like many people, I use food _at first_ to show my dogs what I want. They have no idea what a verbal cue means until I teach them. I can stand there and say "out", "give", or "drop it", but until they know what those words represent they're going to just look at me. And if I'm holding the end of a tug and I want them to let go, I offer a treat. They drop their end of the toy to get the treat, I mark it, and release them to grab the toy again. I only use food as long as I need to, at some point the dog understands that letting go of the tug doesn't mean play is over, bringing the ball back and letting me have it doesn't mean we're done. Once they get that, I don't need food anymore, continuation of play is the reward.


You needn't take offence; the you was directed at "why do people". Some, most, many.

And the THREAD is about being growled at.

I hear "my dog is food motivated" or works better for treats but in agility at least, there's not a single person not using it so does the dog work better for it or are you making it food motivated? Not YOU you but you, you know?  

In professional agility, they end reward with the tug so I get your point.

It's like at the dog shows where the judge examines the dog, the handler often/always stuffs a treat in its mouth. What's is your dog so poorly trained that it can't stand still or be trusted to be examined as required?

When I train to drop or out, I take the item and praise. No growling allowed and the dog quickly learns what's expected to get to the next phase of fun. I never have to say drop more than once with a toy or stick or ball. I only say bring it here with the tug if I want to continue to tug. Drop or leave it still means drop or leave it.

I guess I don't really agree with treating for everything even in training. But far smarter people than me do it all the time and I'm sure it's a shortcut for many.

The agility teacher looked at me like I had three heads for not bringing a bag full of treats. But the only issue I ever had there was calling Harley too soon in the tunnel and he would turn around since it was the shortest distance to my voice. He had to be mostly through before I called him because his recall was too strong. All he wants is praise, an ear rub and to please you.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@WNGD the reason for using treats as a reward is because many dogs respond best and learn fastest with that motivator.Others regard a toy or praise as the ultimate.It's the same principal as the Pavlov's Dog experiment - when the dog completes the task the pleasure center in his brain is triggered.When you phase the treat/toy out the 'programming' remains.
The same thing happens when you grab the leash for an outing and the dog's eyes light up or he hears the food bowl clank.
Of course you wouldn't offer a reward at the moment a dog growls which would reinforce that response.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Steve Strom said:


> Even though we're all telling you the same thing, it could be too many different things to try at once. I think the root of the problem is really her outing the toy. Its a lot more difficult to clean that up with a ball then a tug. It may be better if you concentrate on just that for a while. The key is outing on command and biting on command or just you telling her its ok to. See if this helps:


Great video. But where was the hot dog and cheese?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> @WNGD the reason for using treats as a reward is because many dogs respond best and learn fastest with that motivator.Others regard a toy or praise as the ultimate.It's the same principal as the Pavlov's Dog experiment - when the dog completes the task the pleasure center in his brain is triggered.When you phase the treat/toy out the 'programming' remains.
> The same thing happens when you grab the leash for an outing and the dog's eyes light up or he hears the food bowl clank.
> Of course you wouldn't offer a reward at the moment a dog growls which would reinforce that response.


I get it, just having a little fun. 
I do believe that most people aren't looking for what motivates the dog fastest but default to a bagful of treats regardless though and it's a sensitive point for a lot of owners.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

WNGD said:


> *I do believe that most people aren't looking for what motivates the dog fastest* but default to a bagful of treats.....


Not in my experience. I do flyball, and like agility, the preferred reward is also a tug. But even so, some of the foundation behaviors that go into ultimately doing full runs racing on a team against another team of dogs are initially taught using food. You can get many more repetitions in a short period of time using a treat than you can using a tug. We train the box turn using a target stick and it just makes sense to click/treat, click/treat for nose touches in rapid succession rather than to tug each time.

Using food also tends to slow the dog down and allows them to think and be aware of what their body is doing (very important when training a safe and snappy box turn) and a tug tends to ramp them up and get speed and energy, (useful for working on the dog driving back from the box to the handler). There are times in training flyball foundation behaviors where you want one and times when you want the other. There are some dogs that are just more motivated for food than toys, so they get a treat at the end of a run instead of tug play. Finding what motivates each dog the most and using that is going to get the best results, so that's what we do.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Not in my experience. I do flyball, and like agility, the preferred reward is also a tug. But even so, some of the foundation behaviors that go into ultimately doing full runs racing on a team against another team of dogs are initially taught using food. You can get many more repetitions in a short period of time using a treat than you can using a tug. We train the box turn using a target stick and it just makes sense to click/treat, click/treat for nose touches in rapid succession rather than to tug each time.
> 
> *Using food also tends to slow the dog down and allows them to think and be aware of what their body is doing (very important when training a safe and snappy box turn) and a tug tends to ramp them up and get speed and energy, (useful for working on the dog driving back from the box to the handler). There are times in training flyball foundation behaviors where you want one and times when you want the other. There are some dogs that are just more motivated for food than toys, so they get a treat at the end of a run instead of tug play. Finding what motivates each dog the most and using that is going to get the best results, so that's what we do.*


Interesting, thanks.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Does she growl when you are near her food? It’s sounds like more of an issue with her guarding the toy than outing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Bearshandler said:


> Does she growl when you are near her food? It’s sounds like more of an issue with her guarding the toy than outing.


I think there's definitely some resource guarding going on here. But working on the out can help with that by building trust. You give it up and get it back again - no need to guard it anymore. Two birds, one stone.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Bearshandler said:


> Does she growl when you are near her food? It’s sounds like more of an issue with her guarding the toy than outing.


They touch on it a little in that Ivan clip, and it was a long time ago when I saw the whole video so I can't exactly remember the details about it, but in the context of this thread if you think about a clean, willing out as the dog giving you something instead of you trying to take it, it makes sense on how it can end the conflict over guarding something.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Bearshandler
she works for half of her food and gets the second in her crate. I never try to take her food from her. She's good with "leave it".

She does growl when I give her a frozen marrow bone and get too close. Thing is that I do not take her food from her once I give it. It's hers.

The toys are all mine in my mind. This is what I am trying to teach her. Honestly, she is not that food motivated.

oh man, is this also something I should work on? LOL


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Steve Strom 
I understand what you are saying, which is that I should play with her as opposed to against her, hence why the rhythm is so important. 

This was my mistake when I first started to play with her. I would take the ball/toy from her and it was always a competition. I never tried to play with her. I didn't understand the difference.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@CeraDean 
What's conflict, please? 
I am afraid this one of those terms that dog owners understand differently and define differently than the dictionary.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> @CeraDean
> What's conflict, please?
> I am afraid this one of those terms that dog owners understand differently and define differently than the dictionary.


Yes. You’re right about differing ideas on the term ‘conflict’. I probably can’t define my understanding of it very well.

I guess I was thinking of it like this:
The dog can give up the ball because I told them to and I am boss 
or 
They can give up the ball because awesome things often happen when they give it up

One option is conflict free and the other has potential to create conflict. In reality, I don’t think it’s so black and white. Awesome things often happen when the dog outs and they out because I told them to. 

Also, there are people much more experienced than me responding on this thread. So take my advice with a grain of salt.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree that this is about guarding and not the out. But if the dog had a clear understanding of Out there wouldn't be guarding. This all goes together. Take the conflict over the object out by creating neutrality and change the mentality. The Out will come because that restarts the game.

Juno - conflict can mean different things at different times. For instance, my female is in conflict right now in protection because I'm making her do obedience. So when I send her for a bite, she's not convinced that's what she's supposed to do and her drive is down. Conflict with resource guarding is the dog wants to keep the item. You want to take the item. Teach the dog that there is no reason to have conflict. Don't pick a fight over this. Change the mentality. Many of us with high drive working dogs have been thru this.

Faren has such high possession that everything she had in her mouth was the hill she was choosing to die on. Lift her off they said...except I could literally hang her on a choke in the air forever and she was not letting go. I had one session like that and looked for a better way (the first way in my post above). I still trade her. She worked for the sleeve and carried it to the car. At the car, I down her and when she releases the sleeve she gets the ball. Into the crate she goes and after I've taken all her collars off, I get some food and trade for the ball. I never have to fight with her. And when i do say OUT because I need to get it away from her, she outs because I've taken the conflict out of it for her.

So your dog just worked her butt off for the ball. She waited for it. Chased it. Got it. And now you want it back. Conflict. You need to teach her that when she brings that ball back, the game starts over. Sometimes you'll trade. Sometimes you'll tug with her and let her win. Sometimes you'll take it and throw it again.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CeraDean said:


> Yes. You’re right about differing ideas on the term ‘conflict’. I probably can’t define my understanding of it very well.
> 
> I guess I was thinking of it like this:
> The dog can give up the ball because I told them to and I am boss
> ...


Conflict is what the dictionary says, it just varies in application because we aren't all the same, our dogs aren't all the same, so their perception of what we're doing can be different. In one way or another its not working together and creating a resistance to what we want. Does that make sense?

Because of all that, your experience could actually be more helpful.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> She does growl when I give her a frozen marrow bone and get too close. *Thing is that I do not take her food from her once I give it. It's hers.
> 
> The toys are all mine in my mind.* This is what I am trying to teach her.
> 
> oh man, is this also something I should work on? LOL


You give her a marrow bone and consider it hers but then you give her a ball and expect her to think it's yours? I'm not sure it's her mindset that needs to change. And THIS right here is where the conflict is starting. I've never once given a thought to this is theirs but this is mine....unless it's on MY dinner plate. This need to claim ownership is creating the issue.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> The toys are all mine in my mind. This is what I am trying to teach her.


You're overthinking it. Toys that I only use to interact with Cava are mine - a tug or a ball on a rope is no fun without me at the other end. I keep those toys put away and take them out when I want to play with her with them. Other toys/balls/bones are laying around the house, there's a bucket of toys in the office and another in the living room. They're her toys, she can choose any she likes and play by herself or she can bring them to me and we'll play together. If she decides it would be more fun to tease me with the ball than to drop it in my lap so I can throw it for her again, I just ignore her. She knows the play rules, they've always been the same, so it's up to her to do what she needs to to make the game continue.



JunoVonNarnia said:


> This was my mistake when I first started to play with her. I would take the ball/toy from her and it was always a competition. I never tried to play with her. I didn't understand the difference.


That is an important distinction - play is supposed to be FUN. For both of you! If you're always fighting her to get the toy back neither of you is having much fun, so what's the point?

I was going to respond to the conflict question too, but Jax replied while I was still typing and I can't explain it any better than she did. You want one thing, your dog wants another - that's conflict.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And the truth is, I've created conflict of one type or another with every dog I've ever owned.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

To just put Debbie's post into my brain's translation...the toy is simply an extension of YOU. 

Faren has the ball and will do victory laps because it's hard for me to tug with her when the rope hurts my hand. She has the tug and she will come punch back in to me because it's no fun without me. You want your dog to punch back into to restart the game because the game IS you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> And the truth is, I've created conflict of one type or another with every dog I've ever owned.


rofl...Amen to that!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> And the truth is, I've created conflict of one type or another with every dog I've ever owned.


🤣 I should probably be embarrassed that for all five years I raced Halo in flyball I had to bribe her with a piece of string cheese to get her to drop her tug in the ring. I'm not though! It's that trading thing. She was SO tennis ball obsessed that we had special tennis ball desensitization exercises with her at practice, and we made a lot of progress. She wanted to chase all the balls in the runback, she'd bring back the ball from the box but didn't want to drop it for a tug, she'd pick up a stray ball and bring it to the box with her. Oy. But the thing is that no matter how much time we spent working on things at practice, or at home, or the park, it doesn't always translate to the tournament environment where it's loud and chaotic and the dogs are all spun up.

The one thing she'd drop a tennis ball for was an Orbee ball on a rope. Picture running away from your dog with your back turned while they chase after you, trying to grab a ball on a rope dangling from your fist. It _worked_, technically, lol. But it was a little scary too and she did nail my hand a couple of times. So I made her a braided fleece tug with Orbee balls on it. Magic! She'd bring back the ball from the box and drop it for her special tug. And then...... she WOULD NOT LET GO OF THE TUG so I could line her up for the next heat. _sigh_ So - string cheese. I'd drop a piece on the ground, she'd have to let go of the tug to reach down and get it, I'd sling the tug around my neck and have her line up.

This was not easy to fix because it was so specific to the ring, and I couldn't really work on it there. I'd walk her back to the crate after the race and she'd drop her tug and go in. She'd out the tug at home. Even at practice. Just not in the middle of racing.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

That's why we all know the saying "They keep us humble"


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Jax08 
any advice on the bone issue? 

to clarify, what I meant was that once I give them their food and treats, I do not attempt to get them back. That's asking for trouble IMO. As long as she stays out of my food, which she does.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> @Jax08
> any advice on the bone issue?
> 
> to clarify, what I meant was that once I give them their food and treats, I do not attempt to get them back. That's asking for trouble IMO. As long as she stays out of my food, which she does.


I would trade up and work on a solid Out. Not because I think ou should take her bone but because at some point you may need to grab something that is high value. So every once in awhile, offer her a new bone to trade for the old one. That's what I do. You hvae a bone? want a bully stick? I dont' do it often but I start it when they come home so I never have an issue. And I never ever mess with their food.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Jax08 
fair comment


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> @Jax08
> any advice on the bone issue?
> 
> t


Yes!
And funny because Hans did that at the exact same age. Was great until one day, looooow growl, and I was shocked and I just froze.
Then I snapped out of it and said, “ Knock it off!” And took the ball away.
Taking away needs to be done swiftly and surely. If you do it slowly they’ll take is at hesitation. These dogs have a “weak-o-meter” built right in, and they will take charge in a second if you register on it.
About that bone... high value treat. An easy fix for me was walk by with another high value treat, drop it as I walk by. Has bone? Here I come with beef cube! “Want more?” Plop!
I would do this even with her food bowl. Your presence nearby means more deliciousness is coming!
I like your rule that when you give food, it’s hers. Now all you have to do make her understand that your presence near her food means something fantastic might be added.
Give her a snout kiss for me. Her face looks so much like Uncle Hans’.❤


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Their food is my food and their toys are my toys. Who is a dog to tell me when it is or isn't dangerous to be eating or holding something.

I don't take their dog food bowls away often at all but what if I wanted to add something to their meal, what if my kid didn't know I had already fed them and I didn't want them to eat large meals back to back, what if I forgot to add meds to it, what if I just felt like it for any good reason? Who makes that decision, the dog or me?

What if they're eating something they shouldn't? What if it's poison? What if they are eating the other dog's meal?

What if I don't want them chewing a meaty bone for longer than an hour? What if I don't want them continuing to eat it if I'm going out?

We have always taught every dog that I can stick my hand in their bowls whenever I like, add/take away/reposition and all my family can do the same. They never see it as unfair and just wag their tail in anticipation of getting it right back. 

My food, my toys I gladly choose to share with you. I've held meaty bones for them while they chewed at it to help. Growl or snap at me? C'mon never.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What if this isn't one of your dogs? What if the op isn't you? What if the op has a training issue that can easily be solved and it revolves around something you've already said you don't understand? Give em a break.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> We have always taught every dog that I can stick my hand in their bowls whenever I like, add/take away/reposition and all my family can do the same. They never see it as unfair and just wag their tail in anticipation of getting it right back.


How did you teach this to the dogs and how old where they?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

WNGD said:


> Their food is my food and their toys are my toys. Who is a dog to tell me when it is or isn't dangerous to be eating or holding something.
> 
> I don't take their dog food bowls away often at all but what if I wanted to add something to their meal, what if my kid didn't know I had already fed them and I didn't want them to eat large meals back to back, what if I forgot to add meds to it, what if I just felt like it for any good reason? Who makes that decision, the dog or me?
> 
> ...


What if you’ve just had very easygoing dogs that wouldn’t resource guard no matter what? What if other people have more driven, harder, and possessive dogs? Some dogs just don’t resource guard. Period. They don’t need to be trained not to do it, and people are convinced that by shoving their hands in those dog’s bowls that they taught them that. In reality, the dog wasn’t going to guard whether their owner “trained” them or not.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

@Sunflowers Uncle Hans loves you, I can see it in his precious face.

I have never tried beef cubes as a treat, I will give it a go.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

Thanks, folks. I really appreciate everybody's input on this matter. 

I am going to give this some thought, and then I am going to summon my patience and get to work. I will report back when I have made some progress, so all you good people know that your advice was not wasted.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Pytheis said:


> *What if you’ve just had very easygoing dogs* that wouldn’t resource guard no matter what? What if other people have more driven, harder, and possessive dogs? Some dogs just don’t resource guard. Period. They don’t need to be trained not to do it, and people are convinced that by shoving their hands in those dog’s bowls that they taught them that. In reality, the dog wasn’t going to guard whether their owner “trained” them or not.


Could be but I think that's more likely a copout. I've had six of my own GSD plus I have never said this on this site but 2 more dogs as a kid plus 2 Rotties together (the male would have eaten a stranger's hand off) as a 16 year old plus 3 Catahoulas together, an English Bull Terrier, a mutt and a Chessie on the farm. I guess all were soft ..... and everyone who has their dogs growl or bite them somehow has harder, possessive dogs. 

I don't think I've taught them not to resource guard, I think I've shown them they don't have to.

That explains why none of them ever tore up my arms as adolescents too, or jumped all over me or bit me, they were all soft. I honestly don't remember one of them ever growling at me unless we were playing. Ever.

Maybe it's easier just to just say "my dog must be more difficult than theirs" so why bother asking or listening to what worked for them?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> Could be but I think that's more likely a copout. I've had six of my own GSD plus I have never said this on this site but 2 more dogs as a kid plus 2 Rotties together (the male would have eaten a stranger's hand off) as a 16 year old plus 3 Catahoulas together, an English Bull Terrier, a mutt and a Chessie on the farm. I guess all were soft ..... and everyone who has their dogs growl or bite them somehow has harder, possessive dogs.
> 
> I don't think I've taught them not to resource guard, I think I've shown them they don't have to.
> 
> ...


You never said how it is you trained the dogs to not resource guard or how old they were when you did this training.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@WNGD I'm trying to understand what your opinion is.Are you saying resource guarding doesn't exist? Or are you of the opinion that it's never genetic and always created by human errors?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

WNGD said:


> I don't think I've taught them not to resource guard, I think I've shown them they don't have to.


Well yes, that’s exactly what we’re all talking about.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WNGD said:


> I guess all were soft ..... and everyone who has their dogs growl or bite them somehow has harder, possessive dogs.
> 
> Could be but I think that's more likely a copout.
> 
> Maybe it's easier just to just say "my dog must be more difficult than theirs" so why bother asking or listening to what worked for them?


I'm not sure where the defensiveness is coming from. If you have a system that works for you, great. I don't know why you feel the need to be insulting to the rest of us. 

Resource guarding is a survival instinct. Some dogs will never care if you play in their food and then there is the one dog that will bite you. I think working line dogs are more apt to have higher possession and resource guarding because that's what many breed into them. Even then it's very individual. Just a combination of genetics and environment. I had an 8 week old puppy here for a couple of weeks. He was snarling and growling over a meaty bone I gave him. At 8 weeks old. Not my kind of dog but he's going on to potentially be a K9 so I just shut the door and walked away. We've had several dogs of various breeds as well, as have most people on the board and I've only had one with super high possession and she has never showed any aggression towards me. I just chose to find a better way to train her instead of picking a fight with her and causing aggression. I'm passing those methods on because they work. I've seen them work with over and over. 

Many of us have posted methods that try to take the conflict out of it for the dog. None of us came up with those systems. High level trainers like Ivan and Kroyer did. Training evolves as we learn more about how dogs think. 

If you don't like it...fine...state your methods and move on. But there is no reason to be sarcastic and rude to others.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> You never said how it is you trained the dogs to not resource guard or how old they were when you did this training.


The very post right above yours says "I don't think I've taught them not to resource guard"
We handle their bowls and bones and toys whenever we need to from day 1 and for a variety of potential reasons that I even listed. Don't owners want to always be able to take something from your dog's mouth without worry of being bitten? We handle feet and ears and teeth and tails as a matter of course so we don't have overly sensitive dogs either. We adventure in the wild, we're around loud noises and silence, we meet people and go lots of places. Are we teaching as much as exposing them to lots of scenarios in order to develop a sound, well rounded dog?

I never really thought about it but assume all of our dogs never resource guard (food) because because they learned casually that it was no big deal from a young age. It just came to me that maybe it's related to not training with food, it's not that high a reward for them, who knows but then you'd think maybe their food bowls would be even that much higher value?

But I'm told a dozen of them must just all be soft dogs because that makes more sense.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> @WNGD I'm trying to understand what your opinion is.Are you saying resource guarding doesn't exist? Or are you of the opinion that it's never genetic and always created by human errors?


Nope. Resource guarding clearly exists and can be genetic. I'm curious if you could show me where you might get the idea that I think it doesn't?

I just think it's too often used as an excuse/acceptance of poor behavior. 
And I think we can help create or increase it by not weeding it out/mitigating early and setting expectations.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WNGD said:


> But I'm told a dozen of them must just all be soft dogs because that makes more sense.


ahhh...now I understand why you are being defensive. I think you are taking the responses personally and this thread isn't about anyone's dog except the OP's, and different methods

A soft dog can resource guard too. It's a survival instinct. Some dogs have high possession and guard. Some are insecure and guard. Actually, IMO, both go back to insecurity in the dog with varying degrees of possession. Both situations go back to both genetics and environment. Really, nobody here can say why YOU personally haven't seen the situation. It could be the dogs you choose or it could be how you raise them.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I had an 8 week old puppy here for a couple of weeks. He was snarling and growling over a meaty bone I gave him. At 8 weeks old. Not my kind of dog but he's going on to potentially be a K9 so I just shut the door and walked away.


I'm never trying to be rude and apologize when people take it that way. It's the internet and people take and read comments different ways. 

But you know what, this is a really cliquey site where sometimes if you offer different opinions that offer a different viewpoint from some of the super-regulars, you're seen as criticizing them or rude or whatever. People who know each other by name or have met tend to gang up; happens all the time here, it is what it is and common on social sites. But it's exactly one of the reasons why so many people disappear from here after a few weeks or don't ever offer much.

Anyway, to address the part of your post above, if that was your dog, what would you have done with an 8 week old dog snarling at you?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> ahhh...now I understand why you are being defensive. I think you are taking the responses personally and this thread isn't about anyone's dog except the OP's, and different methods


Yes, people who know me would describe me as defensive...and sensitive 
I'm out of this thread and trying to help, have at 'er


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> A soft dog can resource guard too. It's a survival instinct. Some dogs have high possession and guard. Some are insecure and guard. Actually, IMO, both go back to insecurity in the dog with varying degrees of possession. Both situations go back to both genetics and environment.


Yes this!
Protection training is, IMO, shaping resource guarding with a human being the resource.
All dogs in my home are raised to think that meal times are a social event. When I start with pups we do a ton of feeding by hand, holding bowls and eating in different spots. I never use meals as training or punishment. I refuse to make a dog perform for basic sustenance.
Same basic concept with toys, I make the dog choose to interact with me. I trade lots but I also make darn sure that it is always more fun to play with me then without me. I teach tag, chase and keep away. It's a reward. You play my game, I'll play yours.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WNGD said:


> Yes, people who know me would describe me as defensive...and sensitive
> I'm out of this thread and trying to help, have at 'er


I guess that's a choice you make.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Anyway, to address the part of your post above, if that was your dog, what would you have done with an 8 week old dog snarling at you?


She left the thread but I addressed what I do this in my previous post. To reiterate, I trade up and teach them an out in a way that avoids creating conflict with them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> Protection training is, IMO, shaping resource guarding with a human being the resource.


I'm only responding to this because you quoted me. I don't agree with this statement at all and I won't want being quoted to imply that's what I was saying or that I agree with it. Just clarifying so there is no misunderstanding on the intention of MY post.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

WNGD said:


> I'm never trying to be rude and apologize when people take it that way. It's the internet and people take and read comments different ways.
> 
> But you know what, this is a really cliquey site where sometimes if you offer different opinions that offer a different viewpoint from some of the super-regulars, you're seen as criticizing them or rude or whatever. People who know each other by name or have met tend to gang up; happens all the time here, it is what it is and common on social sites. But it's exactly one of the reasons why so many people disappear from here after a few weeks or don't ever offer much.
> 
> Anyway, to address the part of your post above, if that was your dog, what would you have done with an 8 week old dog snarling at you?


Look at your posts #21 and #52 on this thread. Dismissive, condescending in one then basically insulting the op in the other. A half dozen people trying to be helpful in the same way isn't cliquey or ganging up on you. Go ahead and disagree with me all you want, criticize me up, down, and sideways, I couldn't care less, but I'll bet comments like yours back more people off then anything I say.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I'm only responding to this because you quoted me. I don't agree with this statement at all and I won't want being quoted to imply that's what I was saying or that I agree with it. Just clarifying so there is no misunderstanding on the intention of MY post.


We are allowed to disagree. I think all dogs resource guard. It's just a question of what they see value in.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

WNGD said:


> Nope. Resource guarding clearly exists and can be genetic. I'm curious if you could show me where you might get the idea that I think it doesn't?
> 
> I just think it's too often used as an excuse/acceptance of poor behavior.
> And I think we can help create or increase it by not weeding it out/mitigating early and setting expectations.


I've got the idea you don't believe it exists because you insist you've never experienced it.It's difficult to offer solid advice for an issue that you've never dealt with before.I disagree with those who infer a dog is "soft" just because it doesn't tend to guard food or objects from it's family pack.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> We are allowed to disagree. I think all dogs resource guard. It's just a question of what they see value in.


I"m not arguing. Just the way you phrased it, and I don't think you thought I was saying that, could be read that I implied it and you were agreeing with it. I think protection training has not been a topic in this thread and isnt' for the OP so I'm not going in that direction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> I've got the idea you don't believe it exists because you insist you've never experienced it.It's difficult to offer solid advice for an issue that you've never dealt with before.I disagree with those who infer a dog is "soft" just because it doesn't tend to guard food or objects from it's family pack.



I agree. I think confident dogs do not feel the need to resource guard. Or maybe dogs that lack prey drive (the hardest bites come in prey). Or maybe the environment taught the puppy to not be insecure prior to them maturing into their drives. So many variables to consider that really nobody here is wrong.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

WNGD said:


> Don't owners want to always be able to take something from your dog's mouth without worry of being bitten?


Yes. _Of course_. And again, that's exactly what we're all talking about - creating an environment where a dog feels no need to guard valued resources. Whether that's because the dog is innately confident, as Jax mentions above, or has learned to trust their owner/s to be fair and consistent. I'm not sure why you think what we do differently than you means we can't take things away from our dogs without being growled at. You continue to argue against something nobody is actually saying. 

Since when I get a new puppy I have no idea if it would be likely to develop guarding behaviors down the road, I start out being proactive to prevent issues from cropping up that I'd otherwise need to fix after they're already ingrained. I do lots of trading games from the very beginning. I teach them to bring me things and give them up voluntarily. Sometimes it's something that's theirs (I take it, praise, and give it back), sometimes it's something they're not supposed to have (I take it, praise, and put it away where puppy can't get to it). If I have treats handy, I'll give one, if not it's just happy praise for being such a good puppy. I don't need to do this forever, it's just a foundation I build early on. 

I've never had any trouble taking something out of any of my dogs' mouths. None of my dogs have ever growled at me for trying to take something away from them. Halo once grabbed a block of cheese off the kitchen counter right under my nose as I was cutting it up for training treats, and you can bet that she did try to evade me when she had that prize! But I walked over to where was laying on the living floor with it, grabbed her jaw and wrenched it open, took out the cheese and walked away. She didn't want to give it up and she wasn't letting it go easily but she didn't growl or try to bite me either. She had the highest possession of any dog we've had, and I always felt like if we were going to have a resource guarder it would have been her. I did TONS of trading games from 9 weeks old on and I think that had a lot to do with it. Cava is different, she's not a soft dog but she's never shown any indication of guarding behavior or the potential to develop it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We all have great plans until we get the one dog that says "...ummm....just no..."


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> The very post right above yours says "I don't think I've taught them not to resource guard"
> We handle their bowls and bones and toys whenever we need to from day 1 and for a variety of potential reasons that I even listed. Don't owners want to always be able to take something from your dog's mouth without worry of being bitten? We handle feet and ears and teeth and tails as a matter of course so we don't have overly sensitive dogs either. We adventure in the wild, we're around loud noises and silence, we meet people and go lots of places. Are we teaching as much as exposing them to lots of scenarios in order to develop a sound, well rounded dog?
> 
> I never really thought about it but assume all of our dogs never resource guard (food) because because they learned casually that it was no big deal from a young age. It just came to me that maybe it's related to not training with food, it's not that high a reward for them, who knows but then you'd think maybe their food bowls would be even that much higher value?
> ...





WNGD said:


> We have always taught every dog that I can stick my hand in their bowls whenever I like, add/take away/reposition and all my family can do the same. They never see it as unfair and just wag their tail in anticipation of getting it right back.


You said earlier in this thread that you *taught every dog*. There is someone here with an issue looking for help. Maybe you did have a method that they may or may not find useful. You’ve been claiming as much in this thread. You never actually said what it was. It sounds as if you’ve never had a dog that resource guarded in the first place. I ask you what your method is because all you did in this thread was make fun of and poo poo any other solutions given. You’re arguing something that pretty much everyone agrees on, that you should be able to take something from your dog whenever. You’re arguing against how you get there and you haven’t really said how you get there.


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## GSD1234567 (Nov 14, 2020)

With tug, it’s important that the dog knows when the game is finished.
I’d start with a brand new tug, introduce and play, out etc.
At the end, with the tug in your hand, “mine”, with motion to put tug behind your back (out of sight), reward with other hand and then take the toy away and put into a cupboard. 

Under no circumstances should the toy be left for the dog to play with it unattended. 

“mine” then becomes associated with end of play.


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