# Raw for not?



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

So far my 6 month old male pup (60 lbs, no Pano) has been doing great on a raw diet. This is what he gets: raw chicken backs, goat milk, kelp, raw green tripe and a raw ground beef, sometimes liver, salmon oil, Vit. C, whole raw egg three times a week. Sometimes a little kibble (large breed puppy).
Yesterday I had to take him to the emergency room for severe watery diarrhea and vomiting. The vet contributed it to the raw diet. (he is current on vaccines). He did eat a two day old, hidden piece of raw tripe that morning so maybe that caused it.
His stools are not really consistent. It varies from small and compact to a soft blob.
The vet wants him on kibble but since he was doing so well and looks so good I am hesitant to go back to that way. To heal he is on a medicated canned food until better.
Need some advice here. My own vet thought it was a good diet. I have his growth monitored on a regular bases by her. 
Can you let me know soon? I am really in a bind over this. Thanks!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A lot of vets are against raw, and will blame a raw diet for EVERYTHING. If your pup has been doing well on the diet you have been feeding, I would continue with it. Dogs are just notorious for finding gross decaying stuff and eating it then getting sick, whether raw fed or not. If this bout of diarrhea clears up in a reasonable amount of time, I wouldn't worry about what the emergency vet thinks. 

For his stools - see if you can connect a pattern of the soft stools with the kibble. One of my dogs always had soft stools no matter what kibble I fed until I switched her to raw and poops improved consistently.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I say skip the eggs for now. They give my boy the runs every time I try them, cooked or raw. Can't comment on the vomiting though. Why do you feed goat Milk?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

robk said:


> I say skip the eggs for now. They give my boy the runs every time I try them, cooked or raw. Can't comment on the vomiting though. Why do you feed goat Milk?


The breeder recommended it for the first year. His dogs look awesome so I followed his advice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> A lot of vets are against raw, and will blame a raw diet for EVERYTHING. If your pup has been doing well on the diet you have been feeding, I would continue with it. Dogs are just notorious for finding gross decaying stuff and eating it then getting sick, whether raw fed or not. If this bout of diarrhea clears up in a reasonable amount of time, I wouldn't worry about what the emergency vet thinks.
> 
> For his stools - see if you can connect a pattern of the soft stools with the kibble. One of my dogs always had soft stools no matter what kibble I fed until I switched her to raw and poops improved consistently.


That sounds realistic, thanks.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Scrap the kibble altogether...scrap the canned crap until he gets better.

Fast the pup for a day - no treats either...water and make some chicken and bone and veggie homemade stock, feed that next day, give the chicken (not the bone of course) and veg from stock on third day.

Reduce the fat...fat is likely the culpret

Re: the chicken backs, w/pair kitchen shears, cut the fat off the back, and dig out the lard type in the cavity...switch up the liver to beef heart or kidney (less fat), use less tripe (fatty), but so good for him...Eggs are high in fat too, but also so good, remove temporarily...ground beef, again might be too fatty...

Vit. C can cause diarrhea, remove and rest from for couple weeks, reintroduce at 1/4 dose and work up. If diarrhea/soft stool comes back cut back dose to where it didn't. Don't add eggs back in until you found vit. C balance (may not need C at all), try to get it in through veg and apples (pectin is good for heavy metal removal and apples high in soluable fibre - give some organic applesauce on the fast)

Add a pancreatin d-zyme to get back on track - you may not need for long term, but will help break down fats and protiens for body to assimilate - less taxing to the GI tract.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Scrap the kibble altogether...scrap the canned crap until he gets better.
> 
> Fast the pup for a day - no treats either...water and make some chicken and bone and veggie homemade stock, feed that next day, give the chicken (not the bone of course) and veg from stock on third day.
> 
> ...


Gatorbytes,
You sound like you know what you are talking about. I have just made a mental note to pay attention to your posts.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

robk said:


> Gatorbytes,
> You sound like you know what you are talking about. I have just made a mental note to pay attention to your posts.


...

Thanks RobK...however I made a greive error on another post, must go correct


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

GatorBytes said:


> Re: the chicken backs, w/pair kitchen shears, cut the fat off the back, and dig out the lard type in the cavity...*switch up the liver to beef heart or kidney (less fat)*, use less tripe (fatty), but so good for him...Eggs are high in fat too, but also so good, remove temporarily...ground beef, again might be too fatty...


Is this a temporary suggestion? If not, might want to note that heart is not considered organ meat- so kidney would be a better option to replace the liver with.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Is this a temporary suggestion? If not, might want to note that heart is not considered organ meat- so kidney would be a better option to replace the liver with.


What I have been advised on for lower fat options in "Offal" meat portion of the diet, which is the smallest percentage of what should be fed in RAW diets and not everyday...it should be mixed up, cut back liver, sub heart or kidney...they all posess different nutrient profiles...

Definition of Offal

*Offal* /ˈɒfəl/,[1] also called, especially in the United States, *variety meats* or *organ meats,* refers to the internal organs and entrails of a butchered animal. The word does not refer to a particular list of edible organs, which varies by culture and region, but includes most internal organs other than muscle and bone


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

GatorBytes said:


> What I have been advised on for lower fat options in "Offal" meat portion of the diet, which is the smallest percentage of what should be fed in RAW diets and not everyday...it should be mixed up, cut back liver, sub heart or kidney...they all posess different nutrient profiles...
> 
> Definition of Offal
> 
> *Offal* /ˈɒfəl/,[1] also called, especially in the United States, *variety meats* or *organ meats,* refers to the internal organs and entrails of a butchered animal. The word does not refer to a particular list of edible organs, which varies by culture and region, but includes most internal organs other than muscle and bone


 
Okay, but heart is still not considered an organ meat for the purpose of a raw diet. It is a muscle meat.

This is quite evident when you look at the nutrient profile of beef heart:


A0RED0ugE0.2mgK0mgThiamin0.3mgRiboflavin1mgPantothenic Acid2mgNiacin8.5mgPyridoxine0.3mgFolate3.4ugB129.7Choline0ugmg



Compared to beef liver:

A18928RED18ugE0.4mgK3.6mgThiamin0.4mgRiboflavin3.2mgPantothenic Acid8mgNiacin14.8mgPyridoxine1.2mgFolate324.8ugB1266.4Choline373.2ugmg

Okay, well that didn't transfer correctly...


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

I would consider treating him for giardia if he were mine. I have never seen that from anything but coccidia or giardia, and I have been feeding all sorts of raw diet variations to all sorts of dogs for over ten years.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I am assuming he has discussed giardia or tested for re: vet visit.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

I wouldn't trust a giardia test unless he tested him every stool, every day, for a year. I've treated too many "negative" dogs for it that got better immediately when they'd had ongoing irregular stools for up to a year or more. Many vets I know of are still using the old school giardia test methods, which is pretty much pointless.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> I wouldn't trust a giardia test unless he tested him every stool, every day, for a year. I've treated too many "negative" dogs for it that got better immediately when they'd had ongoing irregular stools for up to a year or more. Many vets I know of are still using the old school giardia test methods, which is pretty much pointless.


 
What do you use to treat giardia...from what I understand it is a difficult bugger to get rid...
And I don't believe, stool testing is that conclusive either...I figured the Vet would have promoted that first


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It is later in the afternoon and so far, so good. he is getting small amounts of a vet prescribed Iams canned food (yuck, according to him and me) 
But he eats it and things are looking up. The vet gave me 6 cans but I wonder if I should get him started on his own diet by cooking chicken and white rice and gradually get him back to the raw?
What do you guys think?
Thanks so much for all your input. This forum rocks!


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Gator, I gave up assuming the vet would do the logical things;-). So, sometimes stating the obvious can be beneficial. 

I use fenbendazole for an extended period of time (about a week, as opposed to 3-5 days as recommended), coupled with POTENT probiotics. Then I repeat in about 2- 3 weeks. Again, probiotics are essential to the gut's recovery. Giardia (as I'm sure you already know) is a disease of malabsorption.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> It is later in the afternoon and so far, so good. he is getting small amounts of a vet prescribed Iams canned food (yuck, according to him and me)
> But he eats it and things are looking up. The vet gave me 6 cans but I wonder if I should get him started on his own diet by cooking chicken and white rice and gradually get him back to the raw?
> What do you guys think?
> Thanks so much for all your input. This forum rocks!


i would skip the rice, never did anything good for my dog when he had diarrhea...my Pitcairn book says to use rice water only not the grains...means more water and boil longer
just give him chicken....easy on the fat for now. Grains upset a sensitive belly...
Vom, do you want to chime in with what you think, 10 years and "dogs" on RAW I think I would want an opinion from.

Wolfy, did the vet script. any meds.?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> So far my 6 month old male pup (60 lbs, no Pano) has been doing great on a raw diet. This is what he gets: raw chicken backs, goat milk, kelp, raw green tripe and a raw ground beef, sometimes liver, salmon oil, Vit. C, whole raw egg three times a week. Sometimes a little kibble (large breed puppy).
> Yesterday I had to take him to the emergency room for severe watery diarrhea and vomiting. The vet contributed it to the raw diet. (he is current on vaccines). He did eat a two day old, hidden piece of raw tripe that morning so maybe that caused it.
> His stools are not really consistent. It varies from small and compact to a soft blob.
> The vet wants him on kibble but since he was doing so well and looks so good I am hesitant to go back to that way. To heal he is on a medicated canned food until better.
> ...


I hope your pup is getting better as I type this.

I agree with resting the gut for at least 12 hours(limit water to small amounts at a time as well) when you have it coming out both ends. And then go with a cooked chicken/sweet potato or pumpkin with two slippery elm bark capsules mixed with some yogurt given a 1/2 hour before mealtime. 
I would add probiotic/digestive enzyme to the cooked chicken as well.

When you go back to the raw diet, if this were my pup, I would try to balance the meat, bone and organ so you are consistently giving a portioned meal....doesn't matter what protein source as long as you know your dog doesn't have sensitivities to anything. 

And overfeeding can cause runny poops, I fed 3 meals a day til about 6 months so my pup was not gorging or starving before mealtime. After I put him on 2x's a day,he'd barf bile in the AM so I had to still give a midnight snack.
Vitamin C will cause a runny 'concrete white' looking poop if you overdo it, I found that out when I upped the dosage during my pups bout of Pano. I just backed down to 1000mg and he was fine after that one poo. 
Eventually, I raised the dosage to 2000mg split it between meals and he handled it fine. Ester C is easier on the gut, but contains 55mg of calcium so isn't recommended for younger pups. I used a natural C with citrus bioflavonoids before going w/ the EsterC.
I have chickens so my dogs get eggs often, I give them hard boiled, not raw. My dogs like them better cooked than raw and with the intense heat we've had, I feel better giving them cooked eggs instead of the ones that may have sat out in the heat for the day(or incubated)
The Honest Kitchen sells a canned food called Perfect form I would get that if you can to have on hand in case your puppy has another bout.


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