# down while heeling



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Down

Achieving a down with a prong collar is the easiest of all whether your dog is in a sitting or standing position. Remove the slack from the lead. Give the command “Dimwit Down” and pull down on the lead sharply and firmly. Maintain the pressure in this instance. Resisting? Place your hand or foot on the lead, about a foot from the collar, and push down with your hand or foot while pulling up on the lead. Hold the pressure down until your dog will stay when you release the pressure with your hand or foot. Again lots of praise and pats for doing what you want. Never reward poor behaviour or responses.

If you have to physically lay on your dog to get it down do so. This shouldn’t be necessary with a prong collar. At least I’ve never seen it to be. Do NOT let the dog up until you decide/choose to and give it the release word or another command. If you have to force it down, don’t let the dog up while it is struggling. Doing so will only reinforce that if it fights it can get its’ way.

The key to all dog training. Practice. Practice. Practice. Practice. Consistency. Consistency. Consistency



Got this from here http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/53570-prong-collar-basics.html 



just wanted to post the above

my trianer is getting me to down my dog while heeling now that my dog uses a prong collar, i can usually get her to down but she is really slow about it and or sometimes wont go down 

my trainer insists i do it and be able to down her quick without using treats or toys because she is 15 months old now claims shes too young etc..

I am still going to reward but use both. ANyone have comments on geting a dog to down while using the prong? Provided the dog knows the command alread but is use to being lured by treats?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The method you copied from that other forum is NOT the best way to teach down. If you can only "usually get her to down but she is really slow about it or sometimes won't go down", maybe she hasn't fully generalized the command yet. How long have you been working on teaching down? How exactly have you gone about it? Have you worked with her in every room in your house, in your garage, backyard, front yard? At a park? With her in front of you, toe to toe, and also at your side? How about with your back turned to her? With you sitting in a chair or laying on the floor? When she's in the car?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Hmmm. The posted method (forced down) was what a lot of AKC people used to use. They had dogs that would slowly slowly slowly lower themselves into a down. 
It is much easier to train with "clicker" style training - let the dog volunteer the action, you name it, praise and reward big time. Do this a few times and watch what happens - Bingo! snappy down. The late Barker the Younger had the best down in any of the trials we were in. "Down" = dog throwing herself into the down in anticipation of the reward. (She WAS food motivated!) 
Try it at home and see if you don't get a much better down than the method advocated by the trainer. Then go find yourself a more up to date trainer before she introduces more compulsion training.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My only comment is to find another trainer. There is a place for correction after a behavior is learned (and even there I am learning some ways not involving correction are better), but not for compulsion training. 

JMO


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

That is a bad way to teach the down. If your dog understands what down is, why would you still be using food as a lure? It doesn't sound like your dog has a good reliable down so it's unfair to correct her for it. You need to teach her to down without luring long before you can use a collar correction.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i still use food as a lure to keep her happy and keep training fun i wasnt ever planning on taking out food totally? 

is it okay to switch back and fourth sometimes use food and other times no lure?

also is there a limit to how many times we can pratice it a day? or does it matter?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

It would appear that food (or any other reward) is best NOT used as a lure but rather as a reward AFTER the act.

You CAN use food as a lure briefly when you are TEACHING a behavior but never as a "LURE". Then you are teaching the dog to do the behavior when he can see the lure, but what if you are fresh out of the treat?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You can use food as a lure in the very beginning to teach the behavior and then you have to transition from luring to food as a reward or else your dog will only do what you ask when bribed and not because she has to. Once you make the transition to food as reward, you do not do any more luring unless she's very confused and you need to remind her what's expected.

You also want to be using a lot of praise so your dog doesn't need to have food on your body somewhere before she'll pay attention to you. 

You can train as many times a day as you want so long as you don't over do it and you keep it fun.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Laying on your dog to teach him to "Down"? Forcing him to the ground by means of force via a progn collar? Seriously? And you wonder why he doesn't trust you enough to get into a submissive position for you? Luring is not bribing. Luring teaches the dog to move his body into the position you desire it to be moved into. Treating, with an immediate verbal signal or click to mark the desired position, is the dog's reward and incentive to learn what you want him to do. You reward the dog at every stage as he progresses: not when he is phyiscally pinned to ground with no willingness or understanding on his part. Any trainer who says a 15 month old GSD should have an immediate drop on a down command needs to retire, or at the very least get some further education.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Ever see one of the top obedience dogs drop on recall? - immediate and quick. I have seen it in 9-10 mo puppies as well so yes it is possible. And they were happy enthusiastic workers as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I taught Jax down using that forced method because i didn't know any better. I have a dog that RESENTS laying down. She avoids the command. I had to reteach her PLATZ because DOWN was so poisoned for her. You have a German Shepherd. Tap into his drive and use that to train. You will have a happy down who wants to work with you. I'm not saying there isn't a place for correction. But please use a more positive method to interact with your dog. You won't regret it.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

well i already paid and signed a contract with the trainer. I foolishly trusted someone i knew that this trainer was realy good had 20 years of experience and was the best to go to. I guess i was wrong because they would not only be using compulsion training if they were that good. I am now very upset about it here are my choices.

I can tell the trainer me and my famly are unhappy with the compulsion method and want to train my dog in a positive manner.

Or i can just forget about the whole thing lose the money i put in and not go back to the trainer?

I have only gone to like 2 lessons but only compulsion training is stupid stressful for the person and dog creates a negative enviroment.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

ok, maybe this was covered, I didn't get very far beyond the first post.

if you're having to lure with food, the dog doesn't know the command and is no where near ready to do it in motion while heeling.

2nd, i have never seen anybody use that method to get a down.

and if I did, i probably wouldn't be training with them long or ever again


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is how I introduce it, I just use food and push the dog's nose down, releasing the treat into his mouth as soon as he's really down. 02:20






Once the dog understands the concept, I quit with the food and lure, and switch to simply giving the command and reward a fast down with a toy and some tug. Later on, I do use a prong collar for this exercise, but it's not necessary depending on your goals and IMO shouldn't be used to actually teach the exercise to a puppy. I have one dog that was trained to do a down out of motion using a prong collar but this was after he was used to doing platz in other context, used to a prong collar, old enough for this type of training (escape training, basically).


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

sent my training contract to my sister in law who is a lawyer maybe there is a way out

thanks for the proper way of teaching her i am working on it today at our own pace shes going a long great cant believe i actually thought the trainers way was right for a second maybe. Even tho he got results fast she was still unhappy and seemed stressed.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

You knew it wasnt right. That is why you came here. Go with your gut instinct. Dogs have been ruined by con-artist trainers.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

well not sure if i should make another topic tried to reason with my trainer he got defensive and said hes the trainer and he runs a dog school not a kindergarden school


anyways if anyone else been this situation put a lot of money into a trainer who turned into a freak? 

before i start screaming at him calling him an animal abuser wonder if there is any other thing i can reason with him. PVt me if u think u can help.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

pets4life said:


> well not sure if i should make another topic tried to reason with my trainer *he got defensive and said hes the trainer and he runs a dog school not a kindergarden school*.


That attitude alone would be enough for me to ditch him immediately. You're probably not going to get your money back, but even so I wouldn't waste one minute more with that jerk.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I used a treat to lure down, collar correction if the dog ignored the down once a solid down was established, and a clicker to get a VERY fast prompt down. I can be jogging and tell Dante down and he'll hit the ground with enthuasiam (sp)


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

he is also my dogs personal protection trainer but the JERK never even gave her a prey bite or anything he worked her twice both times in defense with stick hits 

she was fine and showed courage and fight but all we did was agitation nothing in prey like he promised and no bite work for her to ease her stress his excuse was "shes a stable dog look at her shes so calm she doesnt need any bite to relieve stress" 


so first compulsion training by introducing her with prong and then second agitation with bamboo sticks in pure defense no prey 

this was our first lesson at his house


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

From all that you have said about this trainer, I would run as fast as possible away from him before he ruins your dog. Try and get your money back after you are gone.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

he also wanted me to scream DOWN when i want my dog to down my response to him was that is am i really going to go out and public and SCREAM down in the middle of a crowd to down my dog? 

furthermore he says my dog is not a "hard dog" which is true shes not hard shes not totally soft she is some where ionnbetween if she was not a hard dog why would he insist she get compulsion training ONLY and never ever get trained a command any other way? So many flaws 

he also tried to convince me to leave my dog there for 3 weeks to turn her into a "machine" which i strongly told him never 

just got so many refs from another forum as this guy had 20 years of dog experience i was promised my dog and me would be in "great hands" he mislead me on the phone big time i was very stupid and mainpulated quick lost 1000 dollars. that is a lot of money i could have spent on her dog products. 

i take her everywhere with me everyone comment how amazing she is. While we are on hikes shes like the dream dog she always listens she may not win a OB competation but she still follows my commands on a decent level and gets better and better at her own pace. She walks perfect on leash for me also.

Feel kinda sorry for her she got so excited when protection training started thinking it would be just like at eurosport when she would get to bite and have fun but instead was given NO pery work only worked in defense. 

I take her in very busy areas all the time kids screaming people passing bikes everything she ignores them and walks by my side and will sit and stay or wait when i tell her to.

Just upsetting that this freak doesnt consider her downing unless drops to the ground like she was hit by a bullet.


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