# Feb issue of Dog World, rare breed white shepherds?



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not sure if this is the most fitting place for this post, but, anyone consider white ones 'rare'? 

Is this a not so good thing, though how many of the non-dog-owning community purchas dog world anyway. 

I just seem to have an aversion to rare colors, etc, as people will use them as selling points. 

Thoughts???


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't see them as rare, personally, but I know that some people don't know they exist in that color. But I was reading a post where someone said that someone didn't think their GSD was purebred because he had a black mask. LOL


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If you compare them with the number of black and tans registered they might be considered rare but the number of whites registered with the AKC is similar to the number of black & red, black and sable dogs.

Here's a link with some AKC registration numbers for the GSD. It's not complete (missing years, see both charts) but you get a pretty good picture of which dogs are really "rare" as far as registration goes. (blues and livers and more recently...."other", whatever that means) 

American White Shepherd Association


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## WolfCrest (May 13, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I don't see them as rare, personally, but I know that some people don't know they exist in that color. But I was reading a post where someone said that someone didn't think their GSD was purebred because he had a black mask. LOL


 

That was mine.  The guy thought Jericho was a mix becaus he has a black mask.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

You didn't elaborate what DOG WORLD had to say about the WGSD being a "rare breed" ... was it in an article? an ad? a heading?

The WGSD "breed" is nothing more than a GSD which of course isn't rare. The color white isn't rare either despite the conformation DQ for the color. As far back as I can remember, the WGSD clubs I've been associated with have always frowned on the WGSD being called "rare"! They're simply GSDs with a white colored coat.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

If you could elaborate on what the article was actually about, that would be really helpful. Are they talking about the White German Shepherd being shown as a separate breed in the ARBA (rare breed) shows? Is that where the word "rare" comes in?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have only seen one white GSD in person and he had a horrible temperment. 

I guess I would consider them rare because I never see any. 

I think it is bad though to say they are rare because more and more people will want a "rare" dog and thats when white GSD BYB's will pop up all over the place, they will only be breeding for color and not temperment and that's when we will end up with more poorly bred, unhealthy and aggressive GSD's.

I personally am not attracted to white GSD's and will never own one.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

arycrest said:


> The WGSD "breed" is nothing more than a GSD which of course isn't rare. The color white isn't rare either despite the conformation DQ for the color. As far back as I can remember, the WGSD clubs I've been associated with have always frowned on the WGSD being called "rare"! They're simply GSDs with a white colored coat.


I know this can be a touchy subject but it's not hard to see why some believe the whites are rare. 

Using the data I have: (17 years AKC statistics)
62% of all the GSD's registered with the AKC were Black & Tan. 
6% were white.
*That would indicate at least statistically, that the whites are rare. *

The whites can be shown in rare breed shows*. Again, that indicates at least on the surface, that the whites are rare.* The general public doesn't investigate why the whites are shown as a rare breed, they just see that they are and draw their own conclusions. 

The whites can't be shown in the AKC ring so the general public isn't as familiar with them. *The perception is, that they are rare.*

There are several clubs dedicated to the whites. The AWSA, WGSDCA, WGSC, UWSC...probably forgetting some. The general public (again) is going to see this as an indication that white German shepherds are somehow different from the GSD. Add this to the numbers of them registered and again...not hard to see why some people believe they're rare.

*Genetically, whites shouldn't be rare* and I think that's what bothers some of us. The implication is that because white is a DQ in the breed standard, there's something wrong with the white GSD's, or, that white only occurs occasionally. All wrong of course, but that's an entirely different discussion.

We have less whites because breeders aren't using them in their breeding programs. It's a man made shortage. *But you can't argue with statistics...6% of anything is rare...or at least not as common.* The point can be debated until the cows come home but it shouldn't come as a surprise that white is considered rare.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

People always ask me what Remy is... I say a GSD. They say...'WHITE?!?'. I say, yes. They say, are they rare? I say, you don't see many white shepherds because the color white is a fault in the AKC ring so most people don't breed them. I then go on to say that there are other venues that accept white in the show ring.

Selective breeding can make anything rare. 

I think if you look at Mother Nature, you will see that wolves or foxes, for instance, come in all different colors depending on their environment. Go to the arctic, you will see more white animals, the desert, more black and tan. 

We are products of environmental evolution.


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

Hmmm rare? I personaly dont think so. My first GSD was a white female whom we named Judah. Since then i have seen MANY GSD's with the whie coat. If my female wasnt spayed, and was to have a litter, she probably would have a white GSD or more. She carries the White Gene. :] Anyways, I have seen it go both ways. Some BYB or even good local Breeders themselves either have them cheaper or mark the prices up remarkably!!! I do not care for color (ofcourse i have my favorites) but Number one priority is temperment and drive. Ill pay good money for a white german shepherd who has the right drive and temperament i am looking for.


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

unloader said:


> People always ask me what Remy is... I say a GSD. They say...'WHITE?!?'. I say, yes..


haha i used to get that with my white GSD in the past.
Now i get it with my bicolor male.
Stranger: "I know he is part black lab... but what else is he mixed with..."
Me: "REALLY?! lol"


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I think it is bad though to say they are rare because more and more people will want a "rare" dog and thats when white GSD BYB's will pop up all over the place, they will only be breeding for color and not temperament and that's when we will end up with more poorly bred, unhealthy and aggressive GSD's.
> 
> I personally am not attracted to white GSD's and will never own one.


We already have too many BYB's for all colors, that ship has sailed. 

When you talk about breeding for color it can be complicated. Look at the different lines..is it an accident that we see black & reds showing up in one line more than another? How about blacks or the sables? There are virtually no whites in many lines...how does this happen if it's a naturally a occurring color in the GSD?

Genetically, breeders know what colors to expect when they use a sire and dam. If you eliminate the possibility of a color showing up in the line, the absence of a color, isn't this still breeding for color in a roundabout way?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> *We already have too many BYB's for all colors, that ship has sailed. *
> 
> When you talk about breeding for color it can be complicated. Look at the different lines..is it an accident that we see black & reds showing up in one line more than another? How about blacks or the sables? There are virtually no whites in many lines...how does this happen if it's a naturally a occurring color in the GSD?
> 
> Genetically, breeders know what colors to expect when they use a sire and dam. If you eliminate the possibility of a color showing up in the line, the absence of a color, isn't this still breeding for color in a roundabout way?


Yes, I agree but if there is more and more talk of white GSD's being rare then more and more white GSD BYB's will pop up and create an even bigger problem.

Kinda like when the movie 101 Dalmations came out, more and more people were looking to get one of those spotted beauties so more and more BYB's started popping up and they created alot of badly bred Dalmations.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I'd just like to say this:

It is rare to find a red and white, blond and white, and pure white siberian husky. However, you don't see "Red and White" siberian huskies as one whole breed. They fit into the breed "Siberian husky", despite color as they should. 

I totally disagree with the thought that there should be a variation of a breed or a whole other breed just because of color.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSD Fan said:


> I'd just like to say this:
> 
> It is rare to find a red and white, blond and white, and pure white siberian husky. However, you don't see "Red and White" siberian huskies as one whole breed. They fit into the breed "Siberian husky", despite color as they should.
> 
> I totally disagree with the thought that there should be a variation of a breed or a whole other breed just because of color.


I do not think that white Siberian Huskys are rare, I had a white Siberian Husky pup and I personally know 2 other people with white husky's and have seen several white husky's being walked. I would however say that it is more common to see black/white Huskys over all other colors.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

GSD Fan said:


> I'd just like to say this:
> 
> It is rare to find a red and white, blond and white, and pure white siberian husky. However, you don't see "Red and White" siberian huskies as one whole breed. They fit into the breed "Siberian husky", despite color as they should.
> 
> *I totally disagree with the thought that there should be a variation of a breed or a whole other breed just because of color.*


This doesn't really relate to what the OP posted, but I feel the need to respond.

What you say may be true in your example, but not in every case. 

Take the Belgian Shepherds for example, should these four breeds be the same breed, or separate?

Below Quotes from American Kennel Club - Belgian Malinois

"One of the four types of Belgian sheepherding dogs, the Belgian Malinois is an alert, high-energy breed, popular as both a police and military working dog."

"*A Look Back*
Developed in the city of Malines, where it got its name, the Malinois shares a common foundation with the Belgian Sheepdog and the Belgian Tervuren. In fact, the Belgian dogs share a breed standard in all countries except the United States. The original breeders prized the Malinois’ working character, and historically, the breed has been the favorite type of Belgian Shepherd in its native country."


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Hondo's father is a white shepherd. His mother is a black and tan. I guess that makes Hondo bi-racial.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Harley has black & silver, black & red and black & tan in his pedigree...it just makes him Harley.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

unloader said:


> Go to the arctic, you will see more white animals, the desert, more black and tan.


Isn't that kind of strange when you think about it? It seems to be related to camouflaging the animal from predators and that makes sense, but black animals in the desert? Everyone knows when it's hot you should wear white!


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

They're not rare...they're a fault in normal German Shepherd lines. I love White GSD'S, I think they're really pretty, but I wouldn't consider them or encourage the general population to start calling them "rare". "White German Shepherd" isn't a breed...it's a color. Kinda like calling a Palomino horse a breed when in fact, it's a COLOR.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Deuce said:


> They're not rare...they're a fault in normal German Shepherd lines.


Yes, color is a fault. Can you explain what makes a white shepherd different from a black one, besides the color? (temperament, genetic problems, trainability???)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Herding dogs are not supposed to be white. The "white" Puli is used to drive stock to market, where the black one is used for herding. Even the "white" collie is not solid white -- it has a colored head and often matching body spots.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Yes, color is a fault. Can you explain what makes a white shepherd different from a black one, besides the color? (temperament, genetic problems, trainability???)


Genetically, nothing. 

Temperament, depends. 

White GSDs are much the way of the American GSD in terms of temperament- in that, they are a softer dog in general. Because the working world kicked them out long ago (which, for the record, I'm not saying was a _good_ decision), all they had left was the show/pet world to really drive their heels into. And here again, I'm not saying "just" the pet or show world... neither of those things are BAD, and to be largely involved in those over the other isn't _necessarily_ a "bad" thing. BUT, that has largely been the direction of their breeding goal for most fanciers, and has thus shaped the temperament accordingly. Some value work ethic more than others, and certainly they CAN work (I've known plenty of WGSDs who took to working venues- one was a SD to a boy in a wheelchair, one an SAR dog), but you will not be seeing a white doing, for instance, criminal apprehension work anytime soon. Not unless someone starts some serious outcrossing, which UHHHHH, cooties!!! :rolleyes2:

So in some ways to say they are the "same" temperamentally as a colored Shepherd is accurate, while in other no. They certainly have little in common with a Czech dog, for example. They are a more mellow, biddable, OB-oriented dog than many lines, best comparing, again, to the American line of dogs.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Hondo's father is a white shepherd. His mother is a black and tan. I guess that makes Hondo bi-racial.


 
:thumbup: LOL


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> but you will not be seeing a white doing, for instance, criminal apprehension work anytime soon. Not unless someone starts some serious outcrossing, which UHHHHH, cooties!!! :rolleyes2:


One of the St. Louis Police Deptments' dogs was a white one. So stranger things can happen.

California White German Shepherd Puppies for Sale CA White German Shepherd Puppy Breeders California White German Shepherd Breeder


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

I would be interested to know if that dog was apprehension work, or narcotics (or both?)?

Either way, very cool!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

All dogs on the St. Louis force do apprehension work. Most are also trained for narcotics. The only bomb dogs we have work at the Court House.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Well then that's fantastic!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The magazine had them in the rare-breed spotlight, a section to discuss the various points of rare breeds of dogs. IN the article they said some people call them White Swiss Shepherds. 

As for being six percent of GSDs, GSDs are number 2 in popularity according to AKC registrations. Another breed may be 95th in popularty and still not be rare, like the English Setter. 


If there are 200,000 GSDs in the US, and 12,000 of them are white (figures are not correct, could not find actual populations of the breeds). If there are less than that many English Setters, and English Setters are not a rare breed, then White sheps are not a rare breed. Furthermore, white sheps are not a breed, they may become a variety, they may even become a breed, though I think that might be harmful to them to eliminating any crossing to other colored sheps. I think that it makes more sense to make them a variety, if anything. 

For example, in showing cockers I think, you have black dogs, party colored dogs, and ASCOB (any solid color other than black).


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> If there are 200,000 GSDs in the US, and 12,000 of them are white (figures are not correct, could not find actual populations of the breeds).
> *If there are less than that many English Setters, and English Setters are not a rare breed, then White sheps are not a rare breed.*
> 
> *Furthermore, white sheps are not a breed,* ).


I think when people talk about a white being "rare" they're comparing how many of them exist compared to GSD's in *other colors, not other breeds. *
In a 17 year period 1,047,443 GSD's were registered with the AKC. 68,981 of them were white. That translates into - 6% of all registered GSD were white. Not exactly an overabundance of whites. (or blacks, sables or black and reds who also come in at about 6% for the same time period)

As for the White Shepherd not being a breed, that's not exactly true. The UKC recognizes the White Shepherd as a separate breed, and the FCI recognizes them as the White Swiss Shepherd. (Berger Blanc Swiss)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They can still be registered as German Shepherds though and bred to GSDs of other colors. If the AKC makes them a breed, that will go away. Maybe not the scope of this thread though. 

I have met many white sheps. There was a white shepherd at the show in Cleveland today. AKC show, shepherd showing in obedience. In a magazine about German Shepherds, they can talk up white and livers and blues as rare, but Dog World is an all breed magazine, I do not think they were talking rare within the GSD breed, I think think they were talking rare in the world. Which is simply not so. 

Furthermore, why would many owners even register their white ones with the AKC? I can see registering with UKC where they can be shown. But unless they were breeding or planned to compete in AKC events, why even bother registering white ones? Is it not possible, that as many as 10% are white? I wonder what % are black. They are not even disqualified in the ring, but I see them as much more rare than white ones, at least around here. I NEVER see black dogs. 

I wonder what percent are liver, blue, sable, bicolor, black and cream, black and red, black and silver, black and tan, and black.

I think there are a whole lot of rare shepherds around. 

I wonder if we should consider coaties as rare as well.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think it's all a moot point.

If the magazine was showcasing them, it's because they are pushing to have White German Shepherds recognized as their own, separate breed from German Shepherds. They are already recognized separately in Europe as the White Swiss Shepherd Dog.

With them being a separate breed, the White German Shepherd Dog (or White Swiss Shepherd Dog), they would need to be shown in ARBA because they would not be able to show in AKC. (Though they can show in UKC, can't they?) Lots of breeds are considered "rare" breeds either because they are new breeds, like Shiloh Shepherds, or they are simply uncommon, like the New Guinea Singing Dog, for example. But they're all considered "rare" if they show in ARBA.

Just a thought.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Furthermore, why would many owners even register their white ones with the AKC? I can see registering with UKC where they can be shown. But unless they were breeding or planned to compete in AKC events, why even bother registering white ones? Is it not possible, that as many as 10% are white? I wonder what % are black. They are not even disqualified in the ring, but I see them as much more rare than white ones, at least around here. I NEVER see black dogs.
> 
> I wonder what percent are liver, blue, sable, bicolor, black and cream, black and red, black and silver, black and tan, and black.




I don't understand your point. The WGSD is only disqualified from the conformation ring, they can compete in all other events. (obedience etc.) Also registering the dog helps to keep track of the lines. Why wouldn't people register them?

Here are the other numbers for all the colors of GSD's registered with the AKC for a 17 year period. Although not a perfect science it's certainly better than basing an opinion on what someone has or hasn't seen. 

The latest information I have is up to 2005 so things may be different now. If anyone has newer statistics they'd be interesting to see. 

647151....Black & Tans 61.7%
92333......Black & Red 8%
78333......Sable 7%
68981......White 6.5%
65272......Black 6%
45086......Black & Silver 4%
41074......Black & Cream 3%
3227.......Gray 3%
1053.......Blue .001%
523........ Liver .0004%


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> With them being a separate breed, the White German Shepherd Dog (or White Swiss Shepherd Dog), they would need to be shown in ARBA because they would not be able to show in AKC. (Though they can show in UKC, can't they?)
> Just a thought.


Yes, the White Shepherd is recognized as it's own breed with the UKC. (notice the word German is left out of the breed name) 

ARBA lists The White German Shepherd Dog *and* the White Swiss Shepherd Dog as two distinct breeds.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't understand your point. The WGSD is only disqualified from the conformation ring, they can compete in all other events. (obedience etc.) Also registering the dog helps to keep track of the lines. Why wouldn't people register them?
> 
> Here are the other numbers for all the colors of GSD's registered with the AKC for a 17 year period. Although not a perfect science it's certainly better than basing an opinion on what someone has or hasn't seen.
> 
> ...


 
So with this tally, Liver and Blue would be rare, white would be rather common, or at least as common as sable and black, a little less common than black and red, and alittle more common than the black and silver/creams and grays. 

I don't know. I suppose that since ARBA will let them show, and Black shepherds do not need such a venue, the white ones are deemed rare even though they outnumber the black ones that are not considered rare. Interesting.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Tanner's "twin" is a white GSD. They are practically identical. I think I made a thread asking about white GSDs being rare, because someone on another forum said they were,but that person was from the UK(Maybe they are rare there?)

I wouldn't mind owning a white GSD(Might get a one for my next dog.)

Stupid question: Do black GSDs with white spots on their chests possibly have a white GSD in their pedigree? I don't know Tanner's pedigree, but I am just talking in general for black GSDs with white spots.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Stupid question: Do black GSDs with white spots on their chests possibly have a white GSD in their pedigree?


I think the gene that causes spotting is different than the recessive gene that causes the entire dog to be white.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

atravis said:


> ... Some value work ethic more than others, and certainly they CAN work (I've known plenty of WGSDs who took to working venues- one was a SD to a boy in a wheelchair, one an SAR dog), but you will not be seeing a white doing, for instance, criminal apprehension work anytime soon. Not unless someone starts some serious outcrossing, which UHHHHH, cooties!!! :rolleyes2:
> ...


Maybe it's because I've been connected to the WGSD for many years, but this isn't exactly true, yet it is very true.:crazy: 

There are many examples of the WGSD being involved in police work over the years - less today since a lot of police departments prefer using the German style dogs for their departments. 

But I know of one police department in Northern Virginia (Prince Williams County which is famous for what Lorena Bobbit did to her hubby John and the resulting search for his cut-off manhood) at one time had an all white K-9 force. The Capitol Police had some, the DC PD had whites (in fact many years ago one was Patrol Dog of the Year), same with other PDs in that area - MD state police had several whites, PG County, etc etc etc. I know the DC area wasn't isolated in this respect but since I lived most of my life there I just recall them better.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If you compare them with the number of black and tans registered they might be considered rare but the number of whites registered with the AKC is similar to the number of black & red, black and sable dogs.
> 
> Here's a link with some AKC registration numbers for the GSD. It's not complete (missing years, see both charts) but you get a pretty good picture of which dogs are really "rare" as far as registration goes. (blues and livers and more recently...."other", whatever that means)
> 
> American White Shepherd Association





Whiteshepherds said:


> I know this can be a touchy subject but it's not hard to see why some believe the whites are rare.
> 
> Using the data I have: (17 years AKC statistics)
> 62% of all the GSD's registered with the AKC were Black & Tan.
> ...


Taking the information from your first post, I can't really agree with your rationale unless you're willing to state that Black/Red, blacks and sables (stastically or not) should also be considered "rare" along with whites? That only the B/T is common and all other GSD colors are "rare" - I guess I disagree.

I agree that white may be considered rare because of the WGSD's acceptance in rare breed shows. ARBA almost kicked them out years ago because they're registered as GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS with AKC and CKC. Finally the powers that be allowed them to continue showing. I think a lot of other rare breed clubs followed ARBA's lead. But how many people of the general populaton even attend an AKC/CKC show muchless a rare breed show? And of course UKC has always allowed the color white in the GSD breed ring (and again, I doubt many people have been to their shows). 

Again, how many people in the general population (or even in the dog world) have ever heard of any of the various WGSD breed clubs except maybe for those of us who fancy the GSD and join clubs, frequent message boards, show our dogs, etc.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

arycrest said:


> Taking the information from your first post, I can't really agree with your rationale unless you're willing to state that Black/Red, blacks and sables (stastically or not) should also be considered "rare" along with whites?That only the B/T is common and all other GSD colors are "rare" - I guess I disagree.
> .


I don't think the whites are rare and never refer to them that way....I thought I made it pretty clear that I was trying to show why other people might think they are. 

This is from my first post. 
_"If you compare them with the number of black and tans registered they *might* be considered rare_*but the number of whites registered with the AKC is similar to the number of black & red, black and sable dogs."*
* 
*The point was, people don't refer to the blacks, black & reds and sables as rare but they do call the whites rare, even though the registration numbers for those colors aren't that far apart. 
There has to be a reason why this happens. If it's not because of anything I suggested, why do you think it happens so often. (that whites are referred to as rare?)


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> ...
> There has to be a reason why this happens. If it's not because of anything I suggested, why do you think it happens so often. (that whites are referred to as rare?)


I honestly don't know the answer except that I've mainly seen the term "rare" used as an advertising ploy by breeders of questionable ethics.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I saw a very pretty white one in the UD class today. 

I saw no blacks, no sables, and only a couple of black and tans/black and reds.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've heard blacks and sables referred to as "rare" on occasion. It's more common, though, for people to say "are you sure she's purebred?" however. Whites, well, people know that GSDs come in White and they also know that they are less common than black/tan saddleback dogs. (Shoot, some people think that is the ONLY color that GSDs come in!) Therefore, people say that they are rare. 
However, the only people I hear talking about a dog of any color or breed being rare tend to be uninformed. They brag about their rare dog, charge higher prices for "rare" puppies, etc etc


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> I hear talking about a dog of any color or breed being rare tend to be uninformed.


I guess we can't expect everyone to know about every breed or what colors they come in. I'm as guilty of ignorance about most other breeds as the next person. I know the breeds but don't pay much attention to color variations.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

So tell me. Black Shepherds are about as 'rare' as whites. Is there a Black GSD association? Are they showable as a rare breed? Are they as 'desirable'?
I find it rare to find good looking black or white shepherd. Although there are a few beauties in this forum.
Eye of the beholder, I guess.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I think my hospice foster Cheyenne is a beauty...despite her illness and years of neglect.....true GSD...no mistaking...
She gets ooohs and awws where ever we go...I find that wgsd's are pretty "rare" in my area apparently  




























I find her temperment extremely soft and sweet...and I've talked to other wgsd owners who say the same. It was interesting to read a poster's take on that


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> So tell me. Black Shepherds are about as 'rare' as whites. Is there a Black GSD association? Are they showable as a rare breed? Are they as 'desirable'?
> I find it rare to find good looking black or white shepherd. Although there are a few beauties in this forum.
> Eye of the beholder, I guess.


The only color DQ is white. Black GSDs are allowed to show in AKC conformation. But no, as far as I know only WGSDs are allowed to show in rare breed shows because of the AKC DQ.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I've personally seen two all white GSD, and one all black. I owned an all white GSD myself so I don't find them as "rare" as others seem to think. However, I ALL the time got asked what breed he was since he was all white. Nobody believed me when I said he was a GSD.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

arycrest said:


> The only color DQ is white. Black GSDs are allowed to show in AKC conformation. But no, as far as I know only WGSDs are allowed to show in rare breed shows because of the AKC DQ.


Actually, livers and blues are NQd as well, as a liver's nose will be a brownish color and a blue's nose will be greyish. This was the method of eliminating dilutes/undesired colors.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> ... Are they showable as a rare breed? Are they as 'desirable'?
> I find it rare to find good looking black or white shepherd. Although there are a few beauties in this forum.
> Eye of the beholder, I guess.


Here's a link to Mar Haven's website ... IMHO they have some beautiful blacks including the GSDCA's Grand Victor Ch. MAR HAVEN'S COLOR GUARD, Grand Victrix Ch. MAR HAVEN'S BLACK ORCHID (and also Grand Victor MAR HAVEN'S AND THE BEAT GOES ON who is not solid black).

MARHAVEN GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS


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## white trouble (Dec 9, 2010)

After this year arent they officially the white american sheperd? How will that work? If a white gsd is born from 2 akc gsds will it be considered a different breed? And 2 white gsds can make colored gsds,so what would the colored offspring of an american white sheperd be? Forgive the rant......by the way,we always had a white gsd in the family,a male always baron,we got to the fifth before i came across trouble and broke the tradition. They make just as wonderful a companion in the right hands as a "regular"gsd. As we all know,not every breed is for everybody


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

This is an interesting topic.

I don't feel that they should be considered a different breed than the "traditional" GSD. If it is only a matter of color, then structurally they _should_ be the same and share the same standard unless they are being bred for different reasons and will have their own characteristics. Belgians have different standards and I feel they should be considered different breeds because each standard calls for different color _and _coat type (length) which would be very broad if it were considered one breed. If the sole reason the white GSD is becoming it's own breed is the color, then that seems rediculous to me considering GSDs already come in several colors. 


I also don't think it is appropriate to consider them rare. If in fact the blacks are just as common, or even less common than whites, then why are they not considered rare? What about BiColors? I agree with them being quoted "rare" is bad news for the white GSD because of BYBs and the selling point of things that are "rare". I DO believe though as well, that this MAY be good for white GSDs to become recognized- because serious breeders and showers can take on the breed in a responsible way, and they can be bred for things other than color by more responsible people.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

white trouble said:


> Aft*er this year arent they officially the white american sheperd? How will that work? If a white gsd is born from 2 akc gsds will it be considered a different breed? And 2 white gsds can make colored gsds,so what would the colored offspring of an american white sheperd be?*


:thinking: Exactly!

There's no reason for them to be a different breed. They may not be considered ideal prospects for herding or other jobs because of their color, but if they are the same in every other way as the traditional GSD, they should either be considered a part of the GSD breed, or just left as they are. And I don't like the idea of a name change at all- if they are in fact GSDs...isn't the GSD considered a legacy? (I think so!) That shouldn't be taken away from the Whities!

If they are to become their own breed, I do hope they call them the "White German Shepherd Dog" and leave it at that. To me, it just does not make any sense though, to come up with a new standard for something that already exists in one breed.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

white trouble said:


> After this year arent they officially the white american sheperd? How will that work? If a white gsd is born from 2 akc gsds will it be considered a different breed? And 2 white gsds can make colored gsds,so what would the colored offspring of an american white sheperd be? Forgive the rant......by the way,we always had a white gsd in the family,a male always baron,we got to the fifth before i came across trouble and broke the tradition. They make just as wonderful a companion in the right hands as a "regular"gsd. As we all know,not every breed is for everybody


Just curious - where did you hear this? As far as I know this isn't true, I haven't heard this one and I'm sure I would have read about it somewhere, especially on the GSD show list I belong to which has a lot of GSDCA members. 

Perhaps you're thinking of another registry other than AKC? As far as I know, AKC still considers them GSDs colored white. 

FWIW, two WGSDs cannot genetically spawn a GSD of another color other than white. But two colored GSDs can spawn the white color.

And yes, I agree the WGSDs can make as wonderful companions as their colored relatives.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

PupperLove said:


> This is an interesting topic.
> 
> I don't feel that they should be considered a different breed than the "traditional" GSD. If it is only a matter of color, then structurally they _should_ be the same and share the same standard unless they are being bred for different reasons and will have their own characteristics. Belgians have different standards and I feel they should be considered different breeds because each standard calls for different color _and _coat type (length) which would be very broad if it were considered one breed. If the sole reason the white GSD is becoming it's own breed is the color, then that seems rediculous to me considering GSDs already come in several colors.
> 
> ...





PupperLove said:


> :thinking: Exactly!
> 
> There's no reason for them to be a different breed. They may not be considered ideal prospects for herding or other jobs because of their color, but if they are the same in every other way as the traditional GSD, they should either be considered a part of the GSD breed, or just left as they are. And I don't like the idea of a name change at all- if they are in fact GSDs...isn't the GSD considered a legacy? (I think so!) That shouldn't be taken away from the Whities!
> 
> If they are to become their own breed, I do hope they call them the "White German Shepherd Dog" and leave it at that. To me, it just does not make any sense though, to come up with a new standard for something that already exists in one breed.


There's a huge split in the WGSD community about the breed separation issue. 

Two national clubs, the WGSDCA and the WGSDCII both whole heartedly support the white color remaining as part of the GSD breed, DQ or not (though they continue to try to have the DQ lifted). 

In the 90's, a new club was formed, AWSA, which supports and has worked toward making the WGSD a separate breed. The WSCC also supports breed separation.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

PupperLove said:


> I don't feel that they should be considered a different breed than the "traditional" GSD. If it is only a matter of color, then structurally they _should_ be the same and share the same standard unless they are being bred for different reasons and will have their own characteristics.....snip.... If the sole reason the white GSD is becoming it's own breed is the color, then that seems rediculous to me considering GSDs already come in several colors. .


The problem arose when the color white became a disqualifying fault in the breed standard. The color white had been an accepted color for over 50 years prior to the dq. Many believe that the decision at the time was based on politics and bad science. (not bad at the time, but since proven to be incorrect)

I think the majority of breeders who like the whites would be thrilled if the dq was lifted and if white would once again be considered a standard color for the breed rather than a fault. 



> being quoted "rare" is bad news for the white GSD because of BYBs and the selling point of things that are "rare". I DO believe though as well, that this MAY be good for white GSDs to become recognized- because serious breeders and showers can take on the breed in a responsible way, and they can be bred for things other than color by more responsible people.


I agree that the "rare" label puts the color at risk for idiot breeders but idiots breed all types of dogs in all different colors. No breed is really safe from bad breeders.

There are already a lot of good responsible breeders working towards separation and/or a lift on the color fault in the standard who produce well balanced white GSD's. They have a stigma because of the color fault but my guess is, they've learned to live with it.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Did any white dogs finish their championships before the disqualification? Either here or in Canada?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Although we/I cannot/will not breed the color "white" because of the "rules".....I see no reason that the "color variation" should be separated into a different breed category.
They ARE German Shepherd Dogs of a color variation.....plain and simple.
Do I "promote" the breeding of dogs from _"prohibited_" colors??...of course *I cannot*...._but that too can be a double edged sword._
Just as I cannot/will not "promote" breeding specifically designated for the "pet mentality"....
Personally, I have seen many very nice dogs of several...not acceptable "color variations"...that were actually "better" dogs all around than their acceptable color cousins. (there's an example of that double edged sword thing).
Robin


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Andaka said:


> Did any white dogs finish their championships before the disqualification? Either here or in Canada?


I've heard Geraldine Rockefeller Dodge may have finished one or two WGSDs but have never found out if this is true or not - I know she bred the WGSDs - I forget her kennel name. Here's a picture of her with some of her GSDs.
http://www.awsaclub.com/blasts/geraldin.htm

Despite being heavily faulted in the breed standard, I know of at least one WGSD who had points and was close to getting a Canadian Championship when the DQ took place in the 90's.


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