# Potential Pup Advice



## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

Hey all, i think this might have gotten lost in my previous post but i am looking at some pups this weekend. Though i am digging into understading what exactly i am looking at here are the what they are. How are these? These are from Vom Master Kennel in SouthWest florida, Owners have been very hands on over the phone and email.
Just looking for for gsd that will be protective and great family pet with my young kids and i do get full bredding rights, not sure if thats a big deal cause i am not sure if i even plan to do so.
Thanks

Puppies are 2-3 VA3, SchH3, KKL1 Negus vom Holtkamper See
3-4 VA1, SchH3, KKL1 Zamp vom Thermodos


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

If you are being sold a pet quality dog DO NOT BREED IT! If you do not know if you are getting a "good" pup or if you should buy this one..it's not a dog that needs to be bred because YOU do not know enough about breeding. Please get the idea of breeding out of your head until you have a lot of experience.

http://www.vommasterkennel.com/

Nothing on their website impresses me. They buy puppies from titled parents and OFA them- OFA not listed on all dogs. No titles on their breeding dogs. Not a breeder I would buy from. Do not like that they sell with full registration.

Not a breeder I would buy from or recommend. If you are looking for West German Showlines there are much better options out there. Are you only looking in Florida?


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

Well i do think you have to start somewhere if you do plan to breed. Not everyone is a pro over night. I build race cars as a hobby and needless to i didnt learn and understand it overnight. Hence why i am on the site to learn and inderstand. I am mainly looking for gsd that wont give me the heartache i had with my previous gsd which was a pound dog, though the best dog i owned he was a nightmare health wise. This is the main reason i am willing to pay more for a dog with what i hope has better bloodlines, no plans to show etc. I honeslty dont know that i will ever breed but for the price of $750 i feel getting full paperwork seems like a very good and fair deal. I have no problems hearing everyones thoughts. Not looking to spend $1500 liek most have told me i need to spend. I had a great gsd from a pound for 100 bucks just broke my heart putting him down at 7 years old due to health issues.

Thanks and advice is appreciated


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Good show line dogs run $2000+ Good working lines run $1200+ 

Starting somewhere means getting a dog and learning about the breed. Put some titles on it. Learn temperaments, bloodlines, learn genetics, learn how to pick studs, etc.. It does not mean buy a dog and breed it. Learn some stuff on the fly. Once you learn the stuff you will know what dog to buy is breedworthy.

$750 is an expensive pet not a breeding bitch. Please do not breed. You only need full registration if you will breed or show in conformation. If your dog is just going to be a family pet and maybe do some activities you do not need full registration.

What health issue did your dog die from? Does this breeder do any available testing to rule out health issues in their dogs? Do they do anything to prove the dogs are of solid temperament?


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

I appreciate the advice. I have owned all GSD dogs but none more than pound dogs. My recent GSD had to be put down due to addisions and hips. 

So your saying i am better off getting a $300 shepherd off craigslist? Cause i can find tons of these with akc regsitration but no other paperwork.

Vom Master guarantees hips and elbows for a year and the pedigree looks pretty good for a real nice family dog and "potentially" to breed.

Thanks


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

full registration will be of absolutely no value to you unless you intend to show, work, and breed your dog.

Breeding your dog should NOT be done unless the first two (show and/or work) is done. Not only done as in active in, but done as in titled in. 

You need to not only do THOSE things prior to breeding, But you need to health test the dog for multiple health problems prone in German Shepherds to make sure *You don't create the very dog that gave you heart ache from the health issues!*

If you do not do those things, how do you intend to prove your dog is of ANY value to the German Shepherd gene pool? You will only cater to puppy buyers who have no idea about dogs and just want a german shepherd for the novelty. Those are the same people that figure out quickly a GSD is not something they want and they throw it into a shelter for someone else to handle the problem.

A responsible breeder takes years of learning about dogs and raising a few to understand the breed completely. Then it takes years of mentoring under another breeder to learn from them, if not multiple breeders to get unbiased opinions. It means learning how to recognize structure, compare it to the standard and eventually know how to recognize good from bad, and breed for better. Thats simply the cosmetics of the dog. 
then comes the learning about dogs. First you have to understand dog body language and communication. Then you have to learn what your specific dog is saying all the time. Specifically during work. What drives is your dog working in, does your dog WANT to work? Does your dog have the natural instincts to do the work the breed was meant to do?

Learn to recognize the difference between lines, types, etc. Which line do you prefer? why? What are you going to do to improve those lines? 

Can you take a step back from your dogs and pick out not only the good aspects of the dog but the faults. Can you step on kennel blindness and weigh the good and bad of a dog and decide if its breed worthy. will you take the time to evaluate which dog is a good match for which dog and why?

Do you know how to whelp a litter? Do you know the complications of whelping a litter? Are you willing to risk loosing the mother and the puppies in whelp due to complications? do you have the funds to support the mother in case of emergency in whelp?

do you realize that breeding does not earn money when you do it responsibly.

Breeding takes a person who cares about the breed and bettering the dogs and the gene pool. To continue to supply the next generation with a good dog to keep them going.
Breeding is not throwing two dogs together in the backyard because they look pretty and they like to run really fast for the ball during fetch.....


Please do research before considering breeding. 

It will not only do yourself a huge favor, but it will do your dog, the rest of us breed fanciers, and most importantly the BREED OF GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS a huge favor.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm not saying you're better off with a shelter or rehome dog. Though a good rescue is always a good choice 

I'm saying this breeder isn't great. I would rather spend a little more and buy a dog from a reputable breeder. $1200+ for a healthy stable dog that will live with me for 12+ years is not much.

A 1yr hip/elbow guarantee isn't good. OFA can't be done until 24 months because a lot can change between 1 & 2 years.

The pedigree is decent IMO but the sire and dam have not proved they represent the pedigree by earning titles. Not every dog out of a litter is worthy of breeding. There is much much more to breeding than having good pedigrees.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Super10lbz said:


> I appreciate the advice. I have owned all GSD dogs but none more than pound dogs. My recent GSD had to be put down due to addisions and hips.
> 
> So your saying i am better off getting a $300 shepherd off craigslist? Cause i can find tons of these with akc regsitration but no other paperwork.
> 
> ...


no one ever told you to get a $300 shepherd off craigslist. Please re read and understand that the other poster is suggesting you find a responsible breeder whose intentions are breeding for the better or maintaining a good shepherd dog. 

** removed by Admin. Breeder bashing is not allowed on this site and negative comments like this must be made in private. **

My $500 dog who came from a back yard breeder came with a 1 year hip and elbow guarantee. Do you think she would actually follow through with that? She wants money and nothing more.

not to mention a guarantee means nothing unless you are willing to give up your dog after its lived with you for two years, finally gets its xrays and they come back as hip dysplacia or Elbow dysplacia.


There are good kennels, producing good dogs, at affordable prices. You have to look around. Do not settle on something just because its convenient, the puppies are ready now, or its cheaper. 

Do your research. We are here to help you. But if you are not willing to take the constructive criticism, then you will not learn.


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

Though i am looking for advice from a gsd community i have a feeling i am running into advice from the "pros" no different do i respond when i talk to people just understanding engines and racecars. I forget that people want to learn and grow but at times people who have been doing this for a long time forget where they were one day. My gsd's over the past 20 years get all the love and attention, best healthcare, food, activities and facilities but i am trying to understand titles and the breed even further but i feel amost as if i am not getting advice but attacked by the "pros" who forget that we all start somewhere. Anyone can buy a 5k dog, breed it and act like an expert. But i want a great family dog FIRST and then explore breeding "if" i bought a dog that is "breedable" and i feel i understand what i am doing not just running into it blind.

Thanks again


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

The last 2 posts make perfect sense and exactly the opionions i was looking for. The first few felt like an attack. lol

Thanks


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Super10lbz said:


> Though i am looking for advice from a gsd community i have a feeling i am running into advice from the "pros" no different do i respond when i talk to people just understanding engines and racecars. I forget that people want to learn and grow but at times people who have been doing this for a long time forget where they were one day. My gsd's over the past 20 years get all the love and attention, best healthcare, food, activities and facilities but i am trying to understand titles and the breed even further but i feel amost as if i am not getting advice but attacked by the "pros" who forget that we all start somewhere. Anyone can buy a 5k dog, breed it and act like an expert. But i want a great family dog FIRST and then explore breeding "if" i bought a dog that is "breedable" and i feel i understand what i am doing not just running into it blind.
> 
> Thanks again



I am by absolutely no means a pro, nor do I claim to be. I am giving you advice that you will hear over and over and over again from any dog person with a brain, let alone a German Shepherd person. 

my first German Shepherd is turning 4 in October to give you an idea of how long I have been in the breed. I wish someone gave me a QUARTER of the advice I have received in the 4 years since getting her. 

She has turned out to have arthritis in her elbows, has skin problems, temperament problems, fear aggression, hypothyroidism, is a conformation wreck, has allergies etc.

I am speaking to you as someone who has experience buying from the wrong people, making mistakes and learning from them. 



You were just like me when I got my first dog. I am a stubborn person. No one could tell me I was wrong. My dog was the best looking German Shepherd. My dog was going to have adorable white shepherd puppies because white shepherds are just as good as other colored shepherds. bla bla bla

you live and learn. 

I only hope that you take this advice, sleep on it and realize the value this information we have given you holds.


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

So what i get from this is paying $750 for a pup from his litter isnt a wise choice?


My last GSD was my best friend and to this day i miss him and my daughter asks about him often, last thing i want is another gsd nightmare with a short lifespan.

Thanks


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Super10lbz said:


> Though i am looking for advice from a gsd community i have a feeling i am running into advice from the "pros" no different do i respond when i talk to people just understanding engines and racecars. I forget that people want to learn and grow but at times people who have been doing this for a long time forget where they were one day. My gsd's over the past 20 years get all the love and attention, best healthcare, food, activities and facilities but i am trying to understand titles and the breed even further but i feel amost as if i am not getting advice but attacked by the "pros" who forget that we all start somewhere. Anyone can buy a 5k dog, breed it and act like an expert. But i want a great family dog FIRST and then explore breeding "if" i bought a dog that is "breedable" and i feel i understand what i am doing not just running into it blind.
> 
> Thanks again


With all do respect dogs are not engines. Breeding dogs requires that you put in time and effort to do it right BEFORE you do it. Say your dog has 8 puppies. Of those 8, 3 people breed and have 8 more each..so on.. see what you have done to GSDs. It is important to do it correctly. There is a thread right now where a woman's dog had puppies. She kept one. That dog just bit a kid because it has an unstable temperament. A good breeder has to know what dogs and lines to put together to maintain proper temperament. I'm sorry but no good breeder uses their first dog to breed with, they use it to learn.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Super10lbz said:


> So what i get from this is paying $750 for a pup from his litter isnt a wise choice?
> 
> 
> My last GSD was my best friend and to this day i miss him and my daughter asks about him often, last thing i want is another gsd nightmare with a short lifespan.
> ...


paying $750 for a dog is not the problem. 
The litter itself, the breeder, the guarantee, the lack of work or show with the parents, and the parents themselves of this litter are the problem. 


If you want a quality dog of West German Showlines specifically then give me some time and I will post some links of breeders I recommend to you. I believe I already recommended two to you, but I will agree they are expensive. Breed worthy dogs from good working, show, and health tested dogs are expensive. 

Not to mention if you do infact want only a West German Showline dog, then you have picked the most expensive line of dog to purchase so you are looking at atleast $1,000 for a good dog.


A breeder willing to give you full registration at the drop of a hat and for under $1,000 is someone to be weary of IMPO.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Because without the working ability of the parents not being proven you really don't know what you are getting. What, other than a couple pictures, makes those dogs that you think will fit the mold for your family? While there is no perfect method or one thing that makes or breaks a dog being breedworthy, titling and working the dogs at least show they meet the breed standard. Titling puts the dog under stress--how did the dog handle that stress? Did they run away with their tail between their legs when the helper came at them--a sign of bad nerves in the breed. Or did they meet the "attacker" with confidence and boldness?--a sign of good nerves in the breed. 

Bad nerves and poor working ability gets carried on. If mom and dad don't have "it", then it's not going to be passed on to their offspring most likely (although the overall lines look OK I guess...I don't know much about showlines thouhg). 

Titling is an important aspect to making sure you have a great dog for breeding. If the breeder isn't doing that--how do they know the pros and cons of their dog and who they are pairing it with? How do they know the dog meets the temperment standard?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Super10lbz said:


> Though i am looking for advice from a gsd community i have a feeling i am running into advice from the "pros" no different do i respond when i talk to people just understanding engines and racecars. I forget that people want to learn and grow but at times people who have been doing this for a long time forget where they were one day. My gsd's over the past 20 years get all the love and attention, best healthcare, food, activities and facilities but i am trying to understand titles and the breed even further but i feel amost as if i am not getting advice but attacked by the "pros" who forget that we all start somewhere. Anyone can buy a 5k dog, breed it and act like an expert. But i want a great family dog FIRST and then explore breeding "if" i bought a dog that is "breedable" and i feel i understand what i am doing not just running into it blind.
> 
> Thanks again


You sound like an ideal home for a GSD - and every GSD deserves to have a good home regardless of who bred it. Unfortunately there are thousands of GSDs bred by less than stellar breeders who end up in kill shelters every day! 

My advice is to get a puppy from a breeder who is willing to share info and guidance about the breed and who insists that your family companion only be used for breeding if it shows itself to be breedworthy! One that will mentor you if you actually have a serious interest in breeding. 

IMO, the most important role that the GSD fills today is as a family companion. Therefore, it is imperative that you get a puppy who is genetically sound nerved and stable. One whose breeder understands the lines they use, and who works and explores and proves that their breeding stock is suitable for breeding. You don't want a questionable temperament or health in your new family member any more than a competition home does.

Lee


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Super10lbz said:


> So what i get from this is paying $750 for a pup from his litter isnt a wise choice?
> 
> 
> My last GSD was my best friend and to this day i miss him and my daughter asks about him often, last thing i want is another gsd nightmare with a short lifespan.
> ...


It's not the $ amount it is the breeder. You want this dog to live in your home with your family. The breeder has done nothing to prove these dogs being bred are of stable temperament. All you have is their word and if you meet the dogs you are meeting them in a comfortable environment with their owner around making them more at ease. Titles test the dogs in strange places under stressful circumstances to prove that the dogs have solid nerves. Not all dogs live up to their pedigree so it is important to test them. I would not spend good money on a breeder who couldn't prove their dogs were breedworthy.

If I were you I'd save a bit more and keep looking


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

Well honestly, i feel that all the breeders websites or for sale ads all look the same other than a bunch of initials in which i am learning. So to say "What, other than a couple pictures, makes those dogs that you think will fit the mold for your family? While there is no perfect method or one thing that makes or breaks a dog being breedworthy, titling and working the dogs at least show they meet the breed standard"

I dont have this answer hence why i am on this forum looking for help. All the dogs look great but other than those fancy initals what makes a good dog or a bad dog? This is why i want to go and meet the breeder and feel them out and interact with all the dogs. 

Sure i can cut a check for a 3k dog with all the right titles and have him shipped over from god knows where but back to the main agrument..do you really know what you will get?

Boy this process is harder than building en engine..lol..

I understand we all can sit here all night long arguing back and forth but mainly i am looking for a gsd for my family and i asked about those title and that breeder..his website is no different than all the other sites i see out there is my outsiders point.

Thanks


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Super10lbz said:


> Well i do think you have to start somewhere if you do plan to breed. Not everyone is a pro over night. I build race cars as a hobby and needless to i didnt learn and understand it overnight.
> 
> Thanks and advice is appreciated


Purchasing a puppy from this type of breeder would be somewhat the same as building a race car with a Yugo engine. The car might look really great when your done, but it'll never make it to the track. You'll put the same amount of blood sweat and tears into it, but the outcome is unavoidable.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well I think I explained fairly well what titling is representing--go back and read the post.

Question for you...if you DO go meet the parents on their home turf, how exactly do you plan on making sure that they have good, stable nerves? 

Titling is not the end all be all, that is for sure. HOWEVER...they need to be able to sufficiently prove that the dog can do the work and withstand the pressure if their is an absence of titles. How would you figure that out going to their house?

What I suggest is that you peruse the agression section on this forum. See how many GSD's on here have bad nerves and how many people on here delude themselves into thinking that barking and biting the meter reader is showing some kind of protective instinct. It's not--it's bad nerves. And most of those posts are the backyard breeder types. The types where the parents didn't have titles and the person visited the house, the pet the parents, and they seemed nice enough.

Buying a puppy from parents who have been titled is simply stacking the deck in your favor. Puppies ARE a crapshoot.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Super10lbz said:


> Well honestly, i feel that all the breeders websites or for sale ads all look the same other than a bunch of initials in which i am learning. So to say "What, other than a couple pictures, makes those dogs that you think will fit the mold for your family?


Those "initials" are important, because they tell you what titles the dog has earned and can give you some insight to whether or not the dog at least has the conformation and temperament to hold up to actual work.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Here's an analogy for you:

Would you put a Ford Escape engine in an F1 car and expect to win Monte Carlo? Finish? Get off the track without being plowed down? 

If someone isn't working their dogs and testing them...how do they know not to put that Escape engine in the F1 car? An engine is an engine, right? Put it out on the street and to a layperson it probably looks just like any other engine. I'm sure it would be madness to you.

How about if you're building that F1 car and someone walks up with an engine and says "this is what you need to win. It's the best engine around." Do you take that person's word for it? Or do you test it out to see if it's legit? Put it in a car--put a little pressure on it, how it handles, what it's giving you.....

A dog isn't too much different. It needs to be tested. It needs to be proven. Not someone's word taken its great.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Here is a website that will help you learn what those intitials mean Dog Titles & Abbreviations

Here is a GREAT link that will help you find a great GSD from a great breeder 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

All the analogies are great really and i and i get it BUT not everyone can afford a f-1 engine for example so you do the best you can with the budget you have. So from my world.....when it comes to a car.... to me i woud put the money available to the critical parts and maybe buy cheaper parts for the less critical. I do what i can within the budget, so my question is this a good deal? i hate to sound blunt but it is what it is. I do not want to spend the money that many of you spend.

Maybe i needed to clarify that. The dog will be a dog for the household and for my wife and I to enjoy and a playmate for my kids 5 and 3. Maybe my entire breeding part made everyone a little nervous, i am not trying to become a breeder but its a potential hobby and have no idea if i would even persue that route BUT this breeder happens to give FULL paperwork for a very affordable price and i get everyone concerns..

this has been entertaining and appreciated....i just feel like i have to buy the ferrari of the GSD breed...lol


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

OK here are a few initials to help you out

*Show Rating Initials: (generally placed before the dogs name on a pedigree)*

*Puppy Ratings:* _(for puppies 3 months to 12 months, at 12 months dog is eligable for adult rating)_
*P*- Promising
*VP*- Very Promising

*I forget what the rating for lower than a P for a puppy is, but puppy ratings aren't really important*

*Adult Ratings:*
*U*- Insufficient
*M*- Faulty show or performance rating
*A *- Sufficient Show or performance rating
*G*- (Gut) Good
*SG*-(Sehr Gut) Very Good
*V*-(Vorzuglich) Excellent _(Only Achieved when dog has Working title of SchH1 or higher. If dog is 4 years or older the dog must have a Breed Survey first to attain the V rating)_
*VA*-(Vorzuglich Aulese) Excellent Select _(Only Achieved when dog has Working title of SchH1 or higher)_

*Breed Survey*
*Kkl1*-(KoerKlasse) Breed examination, Recommended for breeding, must have atleast SchH1
*Kkl2*-(KoerKlasse) Breed Examination, Suitable for breeding, Must have atleast SchH1

*Working Titles Initials: * (generally placed after the dogs name on a pedigree)
*A title is a demonstration in front of a Judge to prove the dogs ability to earn the title*

*Note: these are not AKC titles, you will see other abbreviations not used below that are probably another type of work or AKC title etc.*

*AD*- Endurance test of a 12 mile run along side a bike 
*BH*- Companion dog, Demonstration of Obedience and control of dog, Temperament test _(Required to achieve SchH1)_
*SchH1, SchH2, SchH3* 1 being the first and easiest and 3 the last and hardest, SchH is an abbreviation for Schutzhund a demonstration of Obedience, Tracking, and Protection in a specific order. _(Sch1 required to go onto a SchH2, and SchH2 required to go onto a SchH3)_
*PR1, PR2, PR3*- Protection phase of Schutzhund. _(PR1 is the Protection phase of SchH1 etc.)_
*OB1, OB2, OB3*- Obedience Phase of Schutzhund _(OB1 is the Obedience phase of SchH1 etc.)_
*TR1, TR2, TR3*- Tracking Phase of Schutzhund _(TR1 is the Tracking phase of SchH1 etc.)_
*IPO1, IPO2, IPO3*-(International Prufung) Comparable to SchH titles using International rules.
*HGH*- Herding Dog Title 
*PH*- Police Dog
*FH*- Advanced Tracking Title

*Hip Ratings:*
*"a normal" (A1)*- Normal OFA Excellent to OFA Good
*"a fast normal" (A2)*-Nearly Normal OFA Good to OFA Fair
*"Noch Zugelassen" (A3)*- Mild Hip Dysplasia 


If you are looking for a West German Showline, The dogs parents should be atleast SG rated if not V or VA. 
A VA parent will run much higher in cost of puppies than an SG parent.

a V rated parent will have atleast a SchH1 or an HGH. A VA parent will have atleast a SchH2. So a dog with those two show ratings you will already know is titled.


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## Zeusismydog (Aug 23, 2001)

I am not a breeder, nor do I ever plan on it but this is what I have learned so far. The title (the letters behind the names) tell you a few important things. 1st it shows that the animal has been worked and can pass the test for that title. Those little letters are not just "given" to any dog that wants them. Just like you can't put DR in front of your name (ok you can but you won't have the certificate to back it up). So if someone sees DR so and so they know they are a doctor. If you see those letters in front of a dogs name it means they have the "schooling and testing" to back it up.

What are breeding rights? So why do you want breeding right to your dog? Are you going to want to breed down the line? Why? :lol: just cruise the breeding threads and you will see a ton of info on breeding. My question is do you want a pet or a breeding dog? Do you really want to go to all the work and expense for a top quality breeding puppy or do you want "just a pet". Pets are not necessarily less than breeding dogs. It means they have some kind of flaw that doesn't fit with the standard. They might be too big, too small, or something simple like that. It doesn't mean there temperament is worse. 

What I am trying to point out (and I think the others are too) is that unlike an engine where you can swap parts and replace parts to make it better over time a dog you have to start with the best and work up from there. Kinda like your tools. When you are working and want quality do you go down and buy the cheapest wrench you can get or do you spend the extra money and get a good one so you won't have to replace it? I have a few friends that like to work on engines and when I give them the $1 wrench I get from the dollar store they roll their eyes and laugh at me and when I say "isn't a wrench a wrench" I know to duck fast as that said wrench is going to be flying my way.

So if you want "just a good dog" look for a good breeder that breeds for quality. They will always have dogs that don't stand up to breeding or showing quality. You never get 100% breed/show quality out of a litter. Also if you DO want to breed look into maybe co owning a dog. Some breeders will take you under their wing and teach you everything you need to know. 

Good luck. I hope I didn't rattle on too long


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Well dangit someone beat me to it with links. I am going to leave it anyways because I spent so much time making it colorful and bolded and italisized in parts! LOL


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Super10lbz said:


> All the analogies are great really and i and i get it BUT not everyone can afford a f-1 engine for example so you do the best you can with the budget you have. So from my world.....when it comes to a car.... to me i woud put the money available to the critical parts and maybe buy cheaper parts for the less critical. I do what i can within the budget, so my question is this a good deal? i hate to sound blunt but it is what it is. I do not want to spend the money that many of you spend.
> 
> Maybe i needed to clarify that. The dog will be a dog for the household and for my wife and I to enjoy and a playmate for my kids 5 and 3. Maybe my entire breeding part made everyone a little nervous, i am not trying to become a breeder but its a potential hobby and have no idea if i would even persue that route BUT this breeder happens to give FULL paperwork for a very affordable price and i get everyone concerns..
> 
> this has been entertaining and appreciated....i just feel like i have to buy the ferrari of the GSD breed...lol


OK, well first off the difference between $750 and $1200-$1500 is pretty darn negligble when you are talking the amount of $ you are spending over the lifetime of your dog. Would you buy a junk part just because it was cheaper even if you highly suspected it might cost you more in repairs down the road?

These people do not, from what appears available on their website, work their dog. It is no different than going down to the pound IMO, no. I can search petfinder until I find a beautiful red and black WGSL dog and probably end up with the same thing.

Would you rather spend $500 more upfront on the dog or $100 a session, once a week for 5 years on a behaviorist because the dog is fear reactive?

You might get lucky with this breeder. You might not. Because they don't do anything with their dogs, you're much more likely to be in the "might not" category.

You came here, have gotten a lot of good advice and explainations froma lot of different people. You are not hearing what you want to hear. But ultimately it is you that has to make that decision. You can take the advise or not.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Unlike an engine you get what you pay for and you cant replace parts. You either buy an Ferrari or buy a Honda Accord. What you buy is what you are stuck with until it dies. 

Purchasing puppies is also a crap shoot. You may have pick of the litter, but the least good looking puppy may blossom into the best looking dog. 

I recommend you purchase a puppy as a pet from a good breeder. Learn what you can and if you decide breeding for the better of German Shepherds is for you, then save your money and buy some good foundation dogs. 
Co-owning a dog could turn into a great relationship that teaches you a lot. Or it can turn into a mess.


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

I have heard what i expected to hear but you have to understand that spending the 750 is the top of my limit for a dog, hate to sound like that but that is it..I just cant justify spending more and for you guys it doesnt make sense not to spend ONLY $500 more but boy i have seen my fair share of top pedigree dogs from friends that spent thosands for their pet only to be at the bet every couple weeks and fighting with the breeder etc....

We all want the best but the truth is we cant have it all....


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Why not save the money? It's not at the top of the budget if you save monthly until you have it.

Unfortunately, money does not equal quality. Nothing would change people's opinion of this breeder no matter what they are charging. And if it was a reputable breeder people would be in shock. It is not cheap to do things the correct way--ie titling and training. There are definitely breeders out there doing it for money that are no better than the breeder in this thread.

I personally think if money is that big of the issue, keep your eye on petfinder and you'll eventually come across the same thing. Lots and lots of "OK" bred dogs end up in shelters. And lots of fabulously bred dogs end up in shelters.


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

I get what people are saying. I have been a pound guy so $750 for a dog to me is alot of money while to many of you its the cheap end of a dog. I can spend 5k on a dog right now if i want to but this isnt the point of my post. I started my search in pounds and since my wife is set on a puppy that isnt exactly a easy option. So i looked in the 500 or less range and found this ad for what i thought was a "good" deal. and that maxed what i wanted to spend. Maybe i am set in my ways and many people dont get it but i guess its not much different when people dont give me the ok to put $500 more into their motor when i plead with them it will make a huge difference...LOL...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

You've been given a million reasons why it's not a good deal. If you think it is despite what everyone on here says, then move on it.

You never did answer how exactly you plan on testing those parents when you visit them to determine if they are "good" dogs or not. 

You're wanting to put the cart before the horse.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Super10lbz said:


> Maybe i am set in my ways and many people dont get it but i guess its not much different when people dont give me the ok to put $500 more into their motor when i plead with them it will make a huge difference...LOL...


Exactly. If they go in there with a closed mind, then nothing you're goign to say is going to make them decide that $500 is worth it. (and I'm assuming you honestly think that the extra $500 will make a significant difference). That is this situation. You have decided that this dog and the one from the breeder for $1300 is the same. No mind this $750 person is making a killing off of you and the $1300 breeder that trains and titles their dog (aka put a lot of money into making sure they are good dogs that are breedworthy) is probably making close to nothing.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would then suggest that you look for a rescue rather than support breeders whose primary interest is making money rather than breeding with foresight and knowledge - 

read some of the threads such as the one where the 11 month old grabbed a child...is saving a few bucks up front worth the risk??? Sure you might get a great dog for $750 - buy some lottery tickets while you are at it...they are both gambling...

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

A suggestion,,Post your general location (state) and maybe you will get some references on breeders close to your area that would be considered better than the one your looking at


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

to add: 

Ok I went and looked at the website, and I know really nada about show lines, but must say some of their dogs are gorgeous. While it looks like 'they' don't do anything with their immediate dogs, It looks like they are out of some impressive lines. 

While I personally wouldn't purchase a dog from them, as I'm into the working lines,,,I would want to know a couple things,,Have they done any health testing on the parents, as in hips/elbows certified? What if any, kind of health guarantee are they giving? And lastly, if you can meet the parents? See what you think about them,,if you could 'live' with the parents.. How are their dogs kept? Clean, live in the house? kennel dogs??

I would not buy a puppy with the thought of future breeding, why? Because there are already to many dogs in shelters/rescues and breeders breeding. It's easier to go buy a puppy vs producing a bunch. 

Titles aren't the be all or end all for me, unless it's something I have specific in mind..My priorities are good health and sound excellent temperament.

I would go visit this breeder in person vs buy one site unseen


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## Super10lbz (Apr 19, 2011)

Sorry but a 500 dog or a 1200 dogs doesnt exactly guarantee safety so that agrument is out the window. I saw my friends imported lines dog that costs over $3500 attack a child and not listen to any comands. This dog was trained and worked by the best...so i dont buy that...

I am in florida though i appreciate the help i guess i knew the answer i was going to get maybe didnt expect the attitude but that is fine as well. I am set in as to what i want to spend not necessarily the breeder. Plus the breeder does have some pretty good reviews when i searched online. Of course you have good and bad, i was recommened a breeder in miami and noticed few people on this board said nothing but amazing things about him then i do a search and see all the complaints about his dogs...this is why i get so confused. Once again Thanks


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Super10lbz said:


> Sorry but a 500 dog or a 1200 dogs doesnt exactly guarantee safety so that agrument is out the window. I saw my friends imported lines dog that costs over $3500 attack a child and not listen to any comands. This dog was trained and worked by the best...so i dont buy that...
> 
> I am in florida though i appreciate the help i guess i knew the answer i was going to get maybe didnt expect the attitude but that is fine as well. I am set in as to what i want to spend not necessarily the breeder. Plus the breeder does have some pretty good reviews when i searched online. Of course you have good and bad, i was recommened a breeder in miami and noticed few people on this board said nothing but amazing things about him then i do a search and see all the complaints about his dogs...this is why i get so confused. Once again Thanks


I just wanted to comment on this. I paid $500 for a BYB dog and $1000 for a well bred dog. The difference in temperament, movement, drives, confidence, nerve, stability, coat, health, etc. Is huge. 

You are right that no price will guarantee anything. But I would much rather stack the deck in favor of a quality dog. If I am going to spend close to a grand on a dog and subject myself and my children to a dog. I want to make Dang sure my money is well spent and make sure my kids aren't subjected to a dog that could bite them out of fear because of such a poor temperament. 

Also your apparent buddy with a $3500 dog who attacked someone is no proof for the temperament or training of a dog. A poor handler can ruin any dog. Poor training can do even worse. 

So please do not label a dog or its price by the unfortunate event. What if the person wad teasing the dog who got attacked. What if the dog was injured by them. Dog attacks dont happen for no reason.


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