# What is your reason for using a prong collar?



## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

What is your reason for using a prong collar? Is it just your tool of choice for ob training or is there an other reason?

I am just curious because I use a halti head collar which works great but when Molly see another dog on our walk she barks and the halti has no effect when I do a correction. She has absolutely no aggression what I read here is that she is leash reactive. She love all other dogs and is very gentle

I have never used a prong but my breeder suggested that I buy her one.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Corrections become very subtle.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I love the prong collar and usually start resorting to one when my pups are around 6 months old. I've found the head halters and training harnesses help manage and control but not so much 'train'.

Will say, the prong has always worked the best for me in conjunction with dog classes because otherwise my timing isn't as good to have the learning go as fast as it should (for both dog and me  )


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I live on a street that abuts a busy 4 lane rd where the cars are going 50 mph and more. I am the second house in from that street. I can't have a fence across the back of my yard because of conservation land rules. Wolfie has a very strong prey drive. I have to put the prong on him, or he would probably pull my arm out of it's socket going after the wildlife that runs around in the yard. At the very least he would get away from me. I could see him just chasing a bunny, or a deer right into that busy road and getting killed.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

For my male, the prong is a tool...it gives me the opportunity to correct when he pulls. I also use it during OB training. Otherwise he pulls and is so distracted by all the other smells that I would never have his attention.

For my female, the prong has proven to be a great tool. She is getting better about not pulling, but I have to have it when she sees a squirrel or my feet will be flapping behind me as she chases them. 

I have to admit, there are times I feel that I depend on the prong too much to give me the control I need over my two rather than it just being a tool to train them to behave. I wonder at times if I will ever get them to a point that we no longer need the prong collar!


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## nysirk (Apr 15, 2008)

I will start off by saying I have no problems with prong collars when fitted and used proper as a training tools for certain self-reinforcing behaviors and then weaned off, but there are red flag behaviors I would be extremely careful about using a prong or correction in general with and leash reactivity is one of them, I feel that beahvoir should have a proceed with caution sign. 

I would not recommend using a prong with a leash reactive dog, at least not till you have done training and TAUGHT your dog what you expect from them, and your dog truly understands what you ask and expect from them. Another thing that is very important is to figure out WHY your dog is reacting? Is it because they are sacred and trying to make the scary thing go away? Are they just really frustrated they cant get to what they want? knowing why will l make a huge difference in what tools and methods you may use while working out this problem. 

I also wanted to mention that the hati or head collar should never be used along with a leash correction, those tools are not built to work like that, snapping a dogs head to the side has got to hurt the dog alot. One of the main idea's behind the head collar is to avoid pain and corrections, yet the owner can have the physical control they need while they teach and train the dogs mind. In general I really am not the biggest fan of head collars. Also sometimes prong collars corrections can rev up a leash reactive dog even more and make the reactions more intense, so another thing to be careful about. 

When it comes to a "reactive" dog, and correction there is much to think about. There can be risks involved with correction esp if you dog is reacting because they are sacred. It is very possible that your dog may accidentally learn the wrong thing, Dogs can make really funny/incorrect associations. For example if your dog is reacting at another dog and you correct the dog with the prong, your dog may accidentally associate the pain from the correction with something ELSE in its environment, other then the bad behavior that you were actually trying to correct for. Your dog could possible associate the pain with really anything maybe its a tree, a running child, a cretin smell or with new approaching dogs. What can heppon is your dog learned and association that ____ causes pain, therefore "when we see _____ we need to avoid this ___ because in the past ___ has caused me pain so this ___ is possibly dangerous. Some dogs will learn the wrong association then when present with the ___ the dogs central nervous system could also easily go into flight or fight drive which is never a good thing for you or your dog. This could lead to a whole greater mess of problems down the road its very possible that your dog could grow more aggressive or fearful towards those ____ or new dogs all together.

Sure a prong or choke chain will prob stop your dog from barking on leash, If it dose stop the reactions is it going to solve what is making your dog react in the first place? Is it going to hurt your dogs respect and trust in you as a leader? That really depends on alot of different factors, your dog handling experience, your timing, subtle things you may be doing that feed into the bad behavior, your read on your dogs body language your environment ect... With the possibility that the problem could become even worse, I just feel its not the best starting out tool for problems like this, Although there are circumstances that a prong may end up being the best tool for your situation, but remember your dog has no say in what tool you use, and its only fair to address your dogs mind before body. 

I can tell you if someone asked me to do something I was uncomfortable with such as walk up to a bunch of spiders (I really like spiders but I will use this as an example) and I refused and screamed and yelled (or from a dogs point of view barked in attempts to make them stop making me do something i was afraid of) so this person ignores my request, and instead of respecting my feelings they forced me to walk up to the scary spiders by choking me or pinching me by my neck, I may walk over to the spiders while i am being choked because avoiding pain is very strong motivator to me and most all species, but I can guarantee i am not going to trust or respect or really even want to be around that person anymore and it would take me a very very long time to ever gain trust in that person again if at all, and its very likely that I will be even more afaid of spiders even more then I was before. 
I can understand how hard it can be, and how embarrassing it can feel when you are trying to walk a ticking bomb (I have been through this). I will tell you from my own experience half of my dogs problems were me feeding into it without even realizing it. I would tense up on the leash with another dog approached my heart rate would increase i would stop breathing or blinking because I was nervous and anticipating how or when my dog was going to react, I didn't know I was doing this but my dog sure did, Dogs are MASTERs at reading body laungue and picking up on all those little subtle things we do. Once i started to become aware of all these little things I was doing, I started to change them and saw HUGE results with my dog, so just another thing to start to think about when your dog is reacting is there anything you may accidentally doing that may be feeding into your dogs reactions? 
If you value your relationship with your dog it may be wise to consider trying out some of the more modern methods to deal with "dog acts like a bomb on leash syndrome" I would recommend starting out with a front clip harness with your dog, Its a tool that will give you the physical control you need over your dog, While you begin to work with your dogs mind to help them overcome this bad behavior. I would also recommend finding a trainer with experience with desensitizing and counter conditioning methods, its a great place to start. The prong may be something to consider down the road but I just feel its not a fair starting point, I encourage you to learn as much as you can before you make your final equipment choice. I am sure you will find great advice on here and also there also is tons of great articles and books on this, here a few free/ low cost options off the top of my head..... 

Suzanne Clothier has some really great airctles on this
Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - Articles

Patrica McConnell also has a great little handy book on this Welcome to Dogwise.com

Controlled Unleashed- Lesie mcDevit 
Click to clam- Emma parsons 
and there are plenty more...


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

This may seem like a stupid question but what percent of the time do you use the prong side and what percent do you use the pressure side?
Thanks


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

I started all 3 of mine on the prong collar, as training progressed, no need for it now


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I started out using it for walks because Bison pulled so hard on his flat collar that he would actually choke himself. He didn't respond to food training or the "turn around" method. I switched to the prong for his safety. I was really concerned that he was going to choke him self unconcious or do damage to his neck.

Now that he has learned to heel nicely both on and off leash, I use it for training to give corrections. 

With my new pup, my plan is to not use one unless is needed for corrections. Bison has learned that the prong=time to work similar to dogs that put on a vest to work. I have to work on getting him used to not wearing one now. Don't want to make that mistake again.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I started using one at 6 mos- it's like power steering for dogs. Very subtle correction with immediate results. I still use it when we're in a new unfamiliar setting and I want to be sure I have control. Having said that, I'm at the point with Stosh at 10 mos that unless he's on the prong collar I don't get as good as a response, so the problem is with me- probably relied too much on it. So I'm going back to basics with him and working on commands off leash and with his regular collar. But I don't believe I would have gotten this far without it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Stosh said:


> I started using one at 6 mos- it's like power steering for dogs. Very subtle correction with immediate results. I still use it when we're in a new unfamiliar setting and I want to be sure I have control. Having said that, I'm at the point with Stosh at 10 mos that unless he's on the prong collar I don't get as good as a response, so the problem is with me- probably relied too much on it. So I'm going back to basics with him and working on commands off leash and with his regular collar. But I don't believe I would have gotten this far without it.


Very possible that Stosh has learned to know which collar that he has to obey you better!

They can become very smart at detecting this kind of thing - esp. when you also go off lead with them - many dogs realize this and act accordingly.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Regarding a prong - I have found that a properly fitted and used one will give the handler MUCH better control of your dog, particularly with a big powerful dog and a not so strong handler. 

That said i have never had a problem with my sometimes very reactive dog and a correction. you do not have to give anywhere near as powerful a correction with a prong as with a regular slip collar and they are also less likely to hurt the dogs neck due to their design.

But be sure to fit it right - Leerburg has a great video on fitting a prong on his web site. got to be pretty tight and high up on the neck behind the ears.

I have found that the majority of people who do not like prong collars either have never used one (or needed one with a big powerful out of control dog) and/or are of the purely positive school of dog training where even a small jerk on the leash is looked on as a terrible thing against your poor dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When they are six or eight months old, I start using the prong collar as a threat. When they do something I do not like, I say PRONG COLLAR, APL, HOSE, EUTHANASIA, etc. 

They generally get what I mean. 

I have two of them. I bought the one, a huge honking thing for Dubya for when I had my hand surgery. What a waste of money. With the surgery, I could not squeeze the prongs together to close it.

The other is a quick release jobby that is a little less beefy. The only problem is that the quick release part is harder to do than opening or closing the links. 

I have considered using it on a couple of my girls, but I think in my case it is terribly unfair. If my dog is pulling on the lead, it is because I have not spent enough time teaching her to walk properly. To put a correction collar on my dog because I did not bother to get out there every day and teach her not to pull is not something I want to do.

Other people may have started their pup right and worked the pup daily and still have that pulling problem, or a dog reactive problem, and they go for the prong to keep their dog safe, and allow it the regular experience of walks, and that is fine for them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Regarding a prong - I have found that a properly fitted and used one will give the handler MUCH better control of your dog, particularly with a big powerful dog and a not so strong handler.
> 
> That said i have never had a problem with my sometimes very reactive dog and a correction. you do not have to give anywhere near as powerful a correction with a prong as with a regular slip collar and they are also less likely to hurt the dogs neck due to their design.
> 
> ...


How about people who simply do not need it. It sounds like a lot of people start with the prong collar when their dogs are six or eight months old. If you are not strong enough to handle a six or eight month old puppy, then maybe a GSD is not the right dog for you. If I had a dog that I could not manage without a prong collar, I would rehome or euthanize the dog. It is too much of a liablility to keep a dog I have no control over.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

PaddyD said:


> This may seem like a stupid question but what percent of the time do you use the prong side and what percent do you use the pressure side?
> Thanks


99-100% prong side. There are a very few specific circumstances where the other side might be appropriate, but in those cases another collar is probably more appropriate than the prong reversed. 

Turning it around is like disabling the power steering in your car, you might be able to smoothly make the corner but only because the car was going there anyway, if you have to actually steer it is going to be a hard jerky procedure that doesn't work very well and just leaves you tired and sore. If you leave the steering on you can gently make the turn or at least move the wheel however you need to without working yourself to death.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that the tool is ok, though, as a temporary training aid. I think too many people become reliant on them, and use them way too long.

I think that the prong collar removes some of the fight between owner and dog. A good leader does not fight with those they lead, so if the prong collar removes that aspect of training, so that there is less frustration, less physical action between dog and handler, I can see the value.

Those that use them for YEARS, I am sorry, but I will never think that is ok. I see it ALL THE TIME. People use it as power steering, rather than an aide in teaching a behavior. Dogs get smart to it as well. They know they have the I-MEAN-BUSINESS collar on, and will even blow off the onwers when they are on flat collars.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I have found that the majority of people who do not like prong collars either have never used one (or needed one with a big powerful out of control dog) .


 So do you think the majority of people using prongs have big powerful out of control dogs?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> How about people who simply do not need it. It sounds like a lot of people start with the prong collar when their dogs are six or eight months old. If you are not strong enough to handle a six or eight month old puppy, then maybe a GSD is not the right dog for you. If I had a dog that I could not manage without a prong collar, I would rehome or *euthanize* the dog. It is too much of a liablility to keep a dog I have no control over.


*Euthanize* an out of control, healthy 9/10 mo puppy rather than use a prong??? Interesting choice!

Quite obviously, if you don't need a prong collar, then you should not use it. But perhaps a lot of folks are not as strong as you or perhaps their dogs are not as well trained as yours or maybe they are not as skilled as you seem to be. And maybe they really like their dogs even if they are not as much in control of them as you obviously would be; but still want to keep them in spite of your advice that they shouldn't have such a big powerful dog.

For example, in a beginning dog obedience class I was in at our local obedience club there was a little woman with a 6-7 mo Mastiff and whenever that dog wanted to walk around he just did and pulled the woman (a real neophyte) with him. The puppy was a very sweet dog but the regular slip collar made no impression on him whatsoever - she started with a prong collar properly sized and put on by the professional dog trainer instructor and the handler claimed it was a miracle as she had a measure of control of her puppy. Amazing progress over the next 6 weeks.

Selzer, are you claiming that this woman should have given up her puppy or *euthanized* it rather than try a prong?

I am curious - have you ever had one of the Giant breeds and tried to handle them? Esp. one who is either very aggressive or maybe just reactive; or maybe even just overly friendly toward other dogs and people. Say a 200lb plus specimen and untrained?

Second, what is your thoughts on a regular slip or choke collar - do you use one of these or are you a strict fan of a flat leather collar or similiar one?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

With Zena the prong was a necessary tool because the choke chain with leash training had no affect on her at all and she's a pretty powerful dog but the prong collar, almost instantly no pulling once she wracked herself trying to chase a deer. She was the perfect leash trained dog after that and some corrected training. Riley we've never had to use a prong. a schulzhund trainer/handler put the fear of God in that dog when he was about 2, almost 3 years old and nothing we were doing was working. Riley is leash reactive so getting him to rethink that whole pulling thing was nice. Shelby had no leash training at all when we got her and she came to us with a prong collar and a teeny tiny take your cat for a walk leash. She still needs to wear the wrong collar otherwise she pulls the first block or so. Shasta, 7 months old, we havent had to resort to a prong yet. Havent even had to use a choke/slip chain either. Though i can tell you from just trying a slip chain on her, she firgured out real quick that she would have trouble if she pulled. She generally walks pretty nicely beside me on the leash just attached to her regular every day collar.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I use Prong Collars with both Sinister and Rogue. My cousin also uses one with her Rottweiler.

I dont need to make anymore corrections, they dont even attempt to pull. My leash is always relaxed now. 

Prong Collars are amazing! :wub:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> *If I had a dog that I could not manage without a prong collar, I would rehome or euthanize the dog*. It is too much of a liablility to keep a dog I have no control over.


Really!!!? You are so anti-prong that you'd euth a dog rather than use one??? Wow...


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I do agree with what selzer said about using the prong as a temporary training tool rather than relying on it instead of training. I think I've relied on it for too long and Stosh knows when it's on him he has to obey- there's no reason why I shouldn't have that kind of control without it. Still, it's invaluable for when you need more control


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

I agree with some of what people are saying on here and some I do not. I do not agree with the fact that when the colar is on he will listen and when off he won't, if that is the case then you didn't train the right way to start. I use the prong to walk and used it for the "unconditional down", when I say down it means down and it has to be right now, this is not an option. I have done this out to 50ft and IMO if you can get a dog to down at 50ft he will do it at a longer distance. Prongs are also good as are e-colars for property training, IMO I think electric fences are for lazy people or people that just don't know how to property train their dog. Are you going to put an electric fence on 10 or more acres of land? Why? I guess it all comes down to personal preference on the tools we have as dog owners. I just don't care for the people that are so dead against prongs or any other pieces of equip we have.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Denali Girl said:


> IMO I think electric fences are for lazy people or people that just don't know how to property train their dog. Are you going to put an electric fence on 10 or more acres of land? Why?


Electric fences require quite a bit of training so the dog learns and understands the boundaries. When properly used, the dog is trained to stay away from the property line and the dog should not be constantly shocked in order to make them stay in. It should just be a last reminder (kind of like a prong pop to make your dog unconditionally down) should they test the boundary.

I don't see them as for lazy people at all. As with any training tool, there are people who use it correctly and people who use it for a "quick fix".


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Sorry Raven, lazy was a bad term, what I meant was it would cost way too much to put an e-fence on 10 or 15 acres as opposed to buying a prong or e-colar. I did this with my last dog although I needed to buy the flags to use as a visual but I did it all with a prong and a e-colar and only used the vibration on the e-colar. Worked like a charm and I can only imagine what it would cost to have a e-fence put in? I would just rather put the time in than to put in a fence and have him figure it out on his own.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Ditto the temporary use for power steering or in situations where precautions are in order. I did want to add that the small pronged collars work much better than the big ones. You'll need to buy extra links or 2 collars to make one that will fit but it is worth it. In my experience the big pronged ones are a waste of money.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Really!!!? You are so anti-prong that you'd euth a dog rather than use one??? Wow...


Yes, I would euth a dog rather than rely on a prong collar to keep other people or dogs safe.

I have NEVER seen a 9 or 10 month old puppy I could not manage. So I have never had to euthanize one.

But yes, I would rehome or euthanize a dog before relying on a prong collar to keep it from injuring other people or dogs.

That makes me a terrible person, I know it.

But, prong collars come undone. Some dogs blow them off too. If you cannot manage a dog without a collar, than you should not have a dog.

Furthermore, with the problem I have with my wrists, I drop things, including leads. Do you really think a dog does not know when the lead is out of the hands of the handler??? They do. Mine are trained to turn back to me and let me gather up the leash again. I do not drop the leash because they are pulling, quite the contrary, I drop leashes and anything else for no reason whatsoever.

Owning a dog I could not manage without a prong collar would be terrible irresponsible and it would do the breed we love no favors.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I don't really know what the issue is with continuing to use one. Training is an ongoing process. I'd rather have the prong there and not need it than need it and not have it. Even my 7 yr old who is very well trained occasionally uses selective hearing on lead. I prefer to use light prong corrections than the pulling/jerking movement of a flat collar.

I think dogs can be trained in a variety of manners, and to each his own. But personally speaking I find the prong produces better results in a quicker time period. Many might argue that they should've trained the puppy better from the get go and the reason they have an out of control 9 month old is because they didn't work with it. Well, what happens when you adopt that 9 month old out of control dog and it drags you down the street? I guess you should work out more to control it! I don't think so. IMHO anyone should be able to walk a well trained dog, and if the prong accomplishes that then why should anyone judge. If the dog isn't pulling, the collar works no differently that a flat collar! If they pull, they get a correction. It's as simple as that.

I don't "retire" my dogs from prongs, they always wear them on walks. Do the adults pull, no. Are they perfectly trained robots, no. Occasionally they need a correction or a reminder to pay a bit more attention to the length of the lead when they are on a free walk vs a heel. Might stop and talk to a neighbor, and the dog gets impatient and doesn't want to maintain a stay - light correction and the conversation can continue on.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Rerun said:


> I don't really know what the issue is with continuing to use one. Training is an ongoing process. I'd rather have the prong there and not need it than need it and not have it. Even my 7 yr old who is very well trained occasionally uses selective hearing on lead. I prefer to use light prong corrections than the pulling/jerking movement of a flat collar.
> 
> I think dogs can be trained in a variety of manners, and to each his own. But personally speaking I find the prong produces better results in a quicker time period. Many might argue that they should've trained the puppy better from the get go and the reason they have an out of control 9 month old is because they didn't work with it. Well, what happens when you adopt that 9 month old out of control dog and it drags you down the street? I guess you should work out more to control it! I don't think so. IMHO anyone should be able to walk a well trained dog, and if the prong accomplishes that then why should anyone judge. If the dog isn't pulling, the collar works no differently that a flat collar! If they pull, they get a correction. It's as simple as that.
> 
> I don't "retire" my dogs from prongs, they always wear them on walks. Do the adults pull, no. Are they perfectly trained robots, no. Occasionally they need a correction or a reminder to pay a bit more attention to the length of the lead when they are on a free walk vs a heel. Might stop and talk to a neighbor, and the dog gets impatient and doesn't want to maintain a stay - light correction and the conversation can continue on.


This is so well said..........AMEN.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> I don't really know what the issue is with continuing to use one. Training is an ongoing process. I'd rather have the prong there and not need it than need it and not have it. Even my 7 yr old who is very well trained occasionally uses selective hearing on lead. I prefer to use light prong corrections than the pulling/jerking movement of a flat collar.
> 
> I think dogs can be trained in a variety of manners, and to each his own. But personally speaking I find the prong produces better results in a quicker time period. Many might argue that they should've trained the puppy better from the get go and the reason they have an out of control 9 month old is because they didn't work with it. Well, what happens when you adopt that 9 month old out of control dog and it drags you down the street? I guess you should work out more to control it! I don't think so. IMHO anyone should be able to walk a well trained dog, and if the prong accomplishes that then why should anyone judge. If the dog isn't pulling, the collar works no differently that a flat collar! If they pull, they get a correction. It's as simple as that.
> 
> I don't "retire" my dogs from prongs, they always wear them on walks. Do the adults pull, no. Are they perfectly trained robots, no. Occasionally they need a correction or a reminder to pay a bit more attention to the length of the lead when they are on a free walk vs a heel. Might stop and talk to a neighbor, and the dog gets impatient and doesn't want to maintain a stay - light correction and the conversation can continue on.


:thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We are all entitled to our opinions. It is not a matter of judging. I consider training tools things people can use to get them from here to there, but then should be weaned off, like using a treat to get the dog to down. 

I am not into using a collar to inflict a correction, a pinch, a poke, a shock. I prefer to use voice corrections. 

If someone uses one until the rescue understands what is expected of them, fine. But I really think that way too many people use them as a shortcut to training, and then never complete the training. If you want your dog to get a correction, that is up to you.

I prefer to set my dogs up to succeed and then praise them for it. It works for me. It may take longer. But I get good results. And why is it so important that a dog is perfect out of the box. I love the puppy and young dog stages. 

Perhaps it is a little like breaking horses. People used to think you had to break them, break their spirit to get a horse that was compliant and safe. Now with the horse wisperer, and monty roberts, etc, we get into this joining up, but all along there were people who handled the young horses and went slow in training and had horses without broken spirits but gentle and willing workers. That always appealed to me.

I do not like the idea of having to dominate my dog. I do not do alpha rolls, I do not kick them, I do not hit them, I do not shock them or pinch them. I am the center of the universe to them, I provide food and pets and praise, and they will do whatever I ask so long as I teach them. IF I do not teach them, how can I poke or prod or pinch or shock?


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

this question has been batted back and forth all day at work between my wife and i. I used a choke collar a few times at around six months but went back to her flat collar i dont like choke chains and wont use one and my wife thinks prongs are inhumane. at twelve months Gypsy sits and down and stay for food or toy and michel elis videos on line has her working of lieash in her pen as well now here is my delima i live in the country (peace and quit) gypsy has every thing possable to smell and track, i have all ways let go in front in the brush she backs out well and hardly ever tangels on a twenty foot lead. she also heels really well on black top or side walk but animals of every driscription two legged and four except horses she want to lung at and play. her head goes down as soon as we get in the ruff except in her run and she forgets every thing she knows. should i get a prong collar???


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Wildtim said:


> 99-100% prong side. There are a very few specific circumstances where the other side might be appropriate, but in those cases another collar is probably more appropriate than the prong reversed.
> 
> Turning it around is like disabling the power steering in your car, you might be able to smoothly make the corner but only because the car was going there anyway, if you have to actually steer it is going to be a hard jerky procedure that doesn't work very well and just leaves you tired and sore. If you leave the steering on you can gently make the turn or at least move the wheel however you need to without working yourself to death.


Thank you for answering.
My GSD is 1 1/2 and never required it. I tolerated pulling because she was a puppy. She learned to stop on her own.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Gypsyrose: In your case I would personally use a remote trainer.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Yes, I would euth a dog rather than rely on a prong collar to keep other people or dogs safe.
> 
> I have NEVER seen a 9 or 10 month old puppy I could not manage. So I have never had to euthanize one.
> 
> ...


But with the way you train them (as you said above), and with you being "the center of their universe" as you said in a message in this thread, then why would you need any collar - you could just speak to the dog and they wouldn't ever harm another dog or person, would they! 

If your dogs turn back to you and come back for you whenever you drop the leash, then why would you ever need to have a leash on them at all (except maybe if it is a legal requirement for them to be on a leash). And of course if you don't need a leash; you certainly would not need a prong collar at all. So I can see where you would be against using a prong collar (since you don't even need a leash with your dogs).

Thus, *you* would/should never have to *kill* a dog that you could not control without a prong collar.

Wonder how long it would take to convert a dog like the Malamute that bit Cesar Milan in one of his shows? 

BTW, you are right about prong collars coming undone once in a while (3 times in 2 1/2 years in my case); that is why that any one who knows anything about using prongs always has a flat collar on the dog attached to the prong with a little clip. If the prong comes undone, then you still have a leash connected to the dog and thus - no problem!

One question - what did you mean by "Some dogs blow them off"? You mean that they ignore the collar? Mine would never do this, but i was thinking maybe you think that your dog would just ignore the prong collar?

If you would/could euthanize a dog rather than use a prong to correct his/her behavior; that is astonishing to me. 

Does it make you a terrible person?, I would leave it to others to judge that approach.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I begin with the prong at about 5 months to teach no pull in conjunction with voice commands and treats. Once they get it we switch back to nylon and I have never had a problem using this method. I don't find them inhumane or a lazy man's tool. They teach the dog what we expect, allow for treats when they walk nicely, and self correct should they lunge or pull forward. Any dog over time is going to learn no pull by using the stopping and back tracking method- however, most of us have more than one dog and just want to be able to walk nicely down the street. For those with immense patience and time a prong is probably not necessary, but for most of us with kids and other dogs in tow it shapes the behavior a lot quicker with a lot less stress on our end


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

For those who lack the strength and patience I can accept the use of a prong collar.
But what do you care what I think?

Wait, I take that back ......... only for those who lack the strength.
The rest of you are lazy.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

People who assume the prong is only for a wild, out of control dog are making a pretty broad statement which is far from the truth. Can it help if a handler is overmatched physically by the dog? Absolutely. But it also has many other uses which have nothing to do with a dog being out of control, much less a liability requiring euthanasia. What a ridiculous idea.

A prong can give a strong correction, yes. With a hard dog, this may be needed. Not because the dog is out of control, but because it is the only thing that he even notices. To throw out a tool based on ignorance and superstition, rather than adjust the training and the tools to fit the dog is one of the biggest mistakes any trainer can make. A dog being hard to the point that he simply will not notice a pop on a flat collar, martingale or choke collar and it requires a prong to get through to him doesn't mean he's out of control or a liability. It merely means he has a higher sensitivity threshold. I suppose people who have only experience soft dogs might find it hard to believe, but it is absolute fact with many dogs.

A prong doesn't just allow for stronger corrections, but also for very, very light ones. As with any tool it is all about how it is used. I can give a lighter correction with a prong than with a flat collar. Far less pressure on the neck, far less hand and arm movement from me, to get the message across. Depending on how it is connected, a prong can also give a directional correction used to steer or guide the dog. Something no other collar can accomplish.

The most important thing about corrections is that they are supposed to be information. They are not supposed to be punishment, and certainly not the handler acting in anger. But to be information, the dog must notice them. To be as matter of fact and unemotional as possible, the less umph the handler has to put into it the better. If one can give a slight flick of the wrist that the dog doesn't even notice, and get the message across with a prong collar this can be not only far more informational but also far LESS disturbing to the dog than trying to do the same with a big yank on a flat collar, and can certainly be pulled off much quicker. All of the physical movement of the handler often associated with trying to deliver corrections with "kinder" collars can upset and bother the dog far more than any sensation on his neck. And for a dog who is physically hard, but also handler sensitive, as many GSDs are, a well timed, quick, clear physical correction gets the message across with far less emotional fall out or disturbance to the dog's attitude than would a verbal "no" from the handler.

The more information the correction provides, the better.
The more the correction is appropriate to the dog's temperament, regardless of what hangups the handler has, the better.
The quicker the correction, the better.
The more matter of fact and thus less disturbing to the dog, which means the least physical movement or emotion on the part of the handler, the better.

With many dogs, in many situations, for many trainers the prong is an excellent tool to accomplish those. And most of those situations have NOTHING to do with an out of control dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I walk my dogs, I use a prong(dead ring) on a tab and a flat with the leash. When needed, I'll grab the tab. 
Very informative post Chris, thank you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> But with the way you train them (as you said above), and with you being "the center of their universe" as you said in a message in this thread, then why would you need any collar - you could just speak to the dog and they wouldn't ever harm another dog or person, would they!
> 
> If your dogs turn back to you and come back for you whenever you drop the leash, then why would you ever need to have a leash on them at all (except maybe if it is a legal requirement for them to be on a leash). And of course if you don't need a leash; you certainly would not need a prong collar at all. So I can see where you would be against using a prong collar (since you don't even need a leash with your dogs).
> 
> ...


 
No, I never had to KILL a dog because I would not try a prong collar instead. I had a dog that was increasingly aggressive due to a long term pain issue that I ended up euthanizing, but that was years ago. A prong collar would not have done anything in that situation. Maybe amputating the leg would have worked. Hind site is 20:20.

Anyhow, no, I do not need a prong collar to control a wild crazy dog, and if I did, I would rehome or euthaize it. Because if the flat collar cannot control the dog, the connection between the prong and collar would be useless. 

I understand that there are other uses, but most people use them for dogs who pull. If the dog is just pulling, I can handle that. My pup pulled me all over tonight at her graduation, no biggie, we are working on it. But I definitely can keep them from pulling me into another dog or person. If I had a dog that I could not stop from pulling me into another dog or person, I could not manage that. Sorry. Not safe for anyone. 

And yes, I do NOT NEED a leash. In fact, I do NOT use collars on my dogs at all at home. But when I go out we have this little thing called a leash law here in Ohio. Still, if that leash falls out of my hands, the dog comes right back and I maintain control. 

My youngsters are not all ready to be totally off-lead in public. But we are working on it. When the leash falls they come right back to me and that is good enough.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> No, I never had to KILL a dog because I would not try a prong collar instead. I had a dog that was increasingly aggressive due to a long term pain issue that I ended up euthanizing, but that was years ago. A prong collar would not have done anything in that situation. Maybe amputating the leg would have worked. Hind site is 20:20.
> 
> Anyhow, no, I do not need a prong collar to control a wild crazy dog, and if I did, I would rehome or euthaize it. Because if the flat collar cannot control the dog, the connection between the prong and collar would be useless.
> 
> ...


Now I am getting a little confused.

I don't think that most people who want to try a prong collar are dealing with a dog with severe pain issues so that is kind of irrelevant to this discussion. Of course a prong is not intended to deal with a severe pain issue with a dog - just when your dog is not listening and not obeying.

The prong offers the chance for a not so strong handler to get the dogs attention. Are they magic? NO! and no one here ever claimed they are - just more effective and also safer for the dog than a choke collar.

Maybe you should realize that not everyone is as good a trainer as you seem to be. Or perhaps they might have more stubborn or harder to train dogs.

For example, I would love to see you handle my own GSD when he decides that he wants to go visit one of his doggy friends or one of his favorite people. Can pull like heck (although we are working on it - he is not perfect yet!). 

It would be real cute to see anyone handle a dog like that on a flat collar. And he is by no means the worst dog that one sees in esp. beginner obedience classes. Are you realistically saying that none of these people or any dog could use a prong collar? That all of these people should simple kill their dogs because they cannot control their dogs on a flat collar?

One thing though - you said if you drop your leash, your dogs* "come back".* Where do they go that they have to come back? Wouldn't your dogs on leash be right next to you, or maybe you use a really long leash?

*"My youngsters are not all ready to be totally off-lead in public"* -- don't think they ever can be since you also mentioned the Ohio leash law, right?

*"My pup pulled me all over tonight at her graduation, no biggie, we are working on it. But I definitely can keep them from pulling me into another dog or person. "*

The above doesn't make any sense to me - either you can control your dog or you can't. If your dog "pulled you all over the place", then how do you keep him from pulling you into another person or animal????

What did he pull you into when he "pulled you all over the place"?

BTW, what would you expect the person you rehomed your dog to with the dog? Isn't that just you getting rid of your problem and the heck with the other person and also the dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No. 

What I meant when I said pulled me all over the place, was that we ran the course both times without a constant loose leash. We went where I wanted to go, and we did each station, but there was tension on the lead at many points. 

When I am walking with my dogs, I do not require them to stay at heel position ALL THE TIME. They can sniff, they can forge or they can lag, doesn't bother me so long as the leash is not tight, I do not need an upper arm workout.

So when I drop the lead, as I said, it is usually a loose lead that is dropped, the dogs realize it immediately, turn and wait for me to pick the lead up again. 

Again, if I needed a prong collar to CONTROL a dog, to prevent that dog from causing a fight or injuring someone, I would not own the dog. I would rehome or euthanize the dog. It is getting rid of the problem, but not everyone has a problem with dropping leashes. 

If you go out with an aggressive dog that will not listen to you by voice, when you KNOW it is likely that you WILL drop the lead, then that is EXTREMELY irresponsible. I would not feel that I was protecting the dog or the breed or the people around me keeping a dog that is like this. This dog I would euthanize or rehome with full disclosure. 

If I was 108 pounds, and could not manage a 96 pound dog without a prong collar, I would not own that dog.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

We're using the prong collar with Shasta because she's getting so big and strong and was pulling so hard on the leash that I couldn't even walk her any more. The flat collar left her hacking and choking...truly horrible sounds coming from her. The front clip harness is better only in that she doesn't choke herself. Once she gets distracted, there's no getting her attention back until the distraction is gone. If the distraction is something that's not going to move, then that means dragging her away until she can no longer see it. The prong collar was like magic. The first time I put it on her, I gave one correction and she got the message. I still need to give small corrections for pulling occasionally when we're walking now, but on the enjoyment scale I'd give our walks 8.5 out of 10 as opposed to 2 or 3 out of 10 before the prong collar.

What I find really interesting is that using the prong collar on walks has improved her behavior generally even when she's not wearing the prong.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

My reason for using a prong collar when training for some dogs is because it works.

I teach obedience classes and JQP comes to obedience classes to get results with their out of control dog as fast as possible. JQP does not have the patience that some on here seem to have. They want their dog to stop pulling them down the road and blowing them off within the first couple of weeks of classes. When they have moderate or substantial progress in that first two or three weeks they then either decide that that is what their goal was and they're done or they continue coming and finding out more about training and their relationship with their dog (wow what a sentence!). Either way, owner is now happy with dog. My personal goal for my students. Dog listens to owner, owner keeps dog instead of euthinasia or "re-homing" or dumping at a rescue/shelter/pound.

Do all dogs that come into my classes get a prong collar? No. But those that would see faster progress because they are able to get through to the dog and communicate clearer, I do suggest get a prong. Whatever makes communication between dog and owner eaiser.

Prong collars are not evil. Dogs that need prong collars are not evil (how silly a notion!). To suggest to an owner to euthanize a dog rather than try a prong collar (or any training tool for that matter) leaves me speechless, really. Wow.

I use prongs on my own dogs as Chris described. I can give so much more information when training with minimal effort/movement with a prong. I use the small size and it is so simple to steer or redirect the dog to the correct answer rather than letting the dog make a gazillion mistakes with me saying "No! That's not right Poochy" And having my voice be a negative to my dog. My voice means great things. Just becuase I use a prong doesn't mean I use *only* a prong.  But the prong makes it easier to get a message across whenever I need to snap the dog out of a mind freeze, much easier than a verbal correction or waving a hot dog in their face (and I really am a hot dog waver extremist! Ask Samba  ). 

Personally, with my own dogs, I use any and all training tools the dog shows me could help them (clicker/marker, flat, choke, prong, food, e-collar, play whatever). Use of the prong collar has not lessened the trust my dogs have in me or made them reliant on the prong to follow given obedience commands. In fact, I would venture to say use of the prong has greatened my relationships with my dogs. They get excited because it is "time to work". They know it is their time with me alone. I train my dogs the majority of the time with a combination of markers, food and prong collars. 

So, in my view, if you are thinking you may need a little extra help with your dog because your dog is tuning you out, you may want to try a prong collar. A front-snap harness and a gentle leader/head halti do not snap your dog out of their focus. Getting within a desensitization distance and having a way to break your dogs focus on an unwanted object and redirect attention to you, needs a tool of some kind (voice, hand, choke chain, prong collar, e-collar) that works for your particular dog is what you need to get/use.

Those that limit their tools in their training bags are really doing a disservice to their dogs, IMO. Because the more you know, the better you can "speak" with your dog and therefore, the more your relationship grows.
:wub:


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## bmasplund (Sep 7, 2010)

Has anyone ever used the StarMark Training Collar. I am thinking of using that instead of the prong collar. 

StarMark Collar (Click for Link)

Thanks


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## StellaSquash (Apr 22, 2010)

Miss Molly May said:


> What is your reason for using a prong collar? Is it just your tool of choice for ob training or is there an other reason?
> 
> I am just curious because I use a halti head collar which works great but when Molly see another dog on our walk she barks and the halti has no effect when I do a correction. She has absolutely no aggression what I read here is that she is leash reactive. She love all other dogs and is very gentle
> 
> I have never used a prong but my breeder suggested that I buy her one.


I use a prong because unlike the other collars I tried (halti, etc) it worked immediately and worked very well. She only wears it when she has to be on leash. I like that it's self correcting for the most part. I'm confident it's a positive for her as she gets very excited when she sees it.. she knows we're going somewhere.

She also gets to go out more thanks to that collar.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

bmasplund said:


> Has anyone ever used the StarMark Training Collar. I am thinking of using that instead of the prong collar.
> 
> StarMark Collar (Click for Link)
> 
> Thanks


I haven't used one myself. Had a student with one. They hated it. Then they tried a regular prong and loved the regular prong. :shrug:


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I forgot to add...

For anyone who thinks that using the prong collar is cruel, Shasta is so eager to get her head in the collar, all I have to do is hold it out and she does all the work. It's obviously not hurting her or distressing to her in any way. 

Shasta wants to please me...the prong helps her do that by giving me a way to break through to her better self when she's inappropriately focused.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> I forgot to add...
> 
> For anyone who thinks that using the prong collar is cruel, Shasta is so eager to get her head in the collar, all I have to do is hold it out and she does all the work. It's obviously not hurting her or distressing to her in any way.
> 
> Shasta wants to please me...the prong helps her do that by giving me a way to break through to her better self when she's inappropriately focused.


 
Good point, anyone who thinks a prong is cruel also didn't do their research....choke collars and regular flat buckle collars cause more damage to a dogs throat than prongs...it's a fact, look it up. If owner would learn how to walk a dog the right way there would be no problem. It's better to have the dog walk by your side loose leash with a prong then 20 ft out in front of the owner pulling and choking on a flat collar.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> Good point, anyone who thinks a prong is cruel also didn't do their research....choke collars and regular flat buckle collars cause more damage to a dogs throat than prongs...it's a fact, look it up. If owner would learn how to walk a dog the right way there would be no problem. It's better to have the dog walk by your side loose leash with a prong then 20 ft out in front of the owner pulling and choking on a flat collar.


 
A prong collar has a limited slip (like a martingale-style greyhound collar). This means that it can only tighten so far. This feature prevents the dog from having the breath choked out of him. It also prevents neck injuries that can be caused by choke chains, such as a collapsing trachea, soft tissue damage, and damage to the spine. Radiographs (X-rays) of dogs that have been trained with choke chains have shown misalignment of the cervical vertebrae, and choke chains have also resulted in injured ocular blood vessels, severely sprained necks, fainting, transient foreleg paralysis, laryngeal nerve paralysis, and hind leg ataxia.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Lazy people use e fences??? REALLY?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My main reasons for using prong collars on my dog that has one are to give a directional correction or to stimulate drive.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm not really clear what was accomplished at training classes if the dog is dragging the owner around or pulling on the leash constantly at graduation. That's the kind of stuff you see at facilities like petsmart.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Prongs are great tools for communication. Like all devices they can be misused or used to great advantage. 

I like them for teaching the finer points of heeling by steering. It is a way to subtlely show a dog the subtleties of heel position when going into competition heeling. 

If you ever have the pleasure of working a dog in drive, they can be very useful communication tools there also.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Samba said:


> If you ever have the pleasure of working a dog in drive, they can be very useful communication tools there also.


What do you mean by "working a dog in drive?"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not use prong collars because I do not need them. 

What everyone else is suggesting, is that I am encouraging others to euth a dog that a prong collar would help. That is NOT what I am saying. What I am saying is that I -- would not keep a dog that was so aggressive and powerful that I could not manage it without a prong collar. 

I would not because I have a physical problem that means that I will PROBABLY drop the lead, as I have numerous times. I need dogs that will listen to my voice commands. 

As for the dog graduating. This is an eight month old puppy that has missed her last three classes because her owner had to do other things on those nights. Nor has her owner worked with her between classes. She has not mastered loose lead walking yet, but she is getting there and will get there without the use of a correction collar. I prefer martingales. They are prong collars without the prongs, so no way are they more harmful than a prong collar.

I will say another thing, All those dogs in my signature line, they all have RNs (save Joy who is entered in the Cleveland show). Maybe you do not need much to qualify three times for an RN. But tight leads will NQ you. Prong collars are not allowed. All those dogs were trained by me, pretty close together. None of them were trained with a correction collar of any type. Does it take longer? I guess maybe it does. I do not push puppies. I want the whole training thing to be fun. How fun can it be when it includes pinching or poking or shocking or jerking? 

I really have to wonder what kind of dogs need a prong collar by five or six months old. It is supposed to be fun at that age. Our dogs are sensitive and want to please. It IS about communication. If we can only show them what to do, and let them know what not to do, they want to do it for us.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

paulag1955 said:


> I forgot to add...
> 
> For anyone who thinks that using the prong collar is cruel, Shasta is so eager to get her head in the collar, all I have to do is hold it out and she does all the work. It's obviously not hurting her or distressing to her in any way.
> 
> Shasta wants to please me...the prong helps her do that by giving me a way to break through to her better self when she's inappropriately focused.


Just making sure you aren't slipping the collar over her head?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Just making sure you aren't slipping the collar over her head?


Nope. She walks forward right into it and waits for me to fasten it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I do not use prong collars because I do not need them.
> 
> What everyone else is suggesting, is that I am encouraging others to euth a dog that a prong collar would help. That is NOT what I am saying. What I am saying is that I -- would not keep a dog that was so aggressive and powerful that I could not manage it without a prong collar.
> 
> ...


Dogs do not want "to please a human", they are self looking and want to, and do, do things thay they think will benefit themselves. If doing what we tell them to do brings rewards then they will do them.

BTW, do you know how big and powerful (NOT aggresive!) a 6 month old Mastiff is, for example? 

Think a small woman or a small man who doesn't know much about dogs can control a dog like that without some help? A properly sized and fitted prong can be a life saver for a combination like that.

Not every dog owner can be a pro at training, esp. with their first dog!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

paulag1955 said:


> Nope. She walks forward right into it and waits for me to fasten it.


 
Mine too - he loves to see me pick it up!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs do not want to please humans?

So why is it exactly that dogs will do ANYTHING for a little praise?

Why would they care about someone saying, "what a good girl you are?" 

My first good shepherd was Arwen. Arwen did not DO toys as a youngster. She could care less about treats. All I could use with her was praise. This was a dog that WANTED to please me. No doubt in my mind about it. She knew what I wanted and did it before I asked. 

If your method of training involves setting a dog up to do the wrong thing, and then correcting it moreso than setting a dog up to do the right thing so you could then praise it, perhaps you would end up with a dog that just wants to benefit themselves.

I think that dogs DO attach themselves to people and choose to be obedient to that person, or if you like, choose to try to please that person.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

selzer said:


> Dogs do not want to please humans?
> 
> So why is it exactly that dogs will do ANYTHING for a little praise?
> 
> Why would they care about someone saying, "what a good girl you are?"


Because it is attention ... from you - the person that controls the resources (food, toys, physical and verbal attention).

Try owning a terrier and see how much the dogs cares about 'pleasing' their owner. Unless the dog knows that there's something in it for them they are just as likely to flip you the paw as they are to obey.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I have used a prong on Mario as a way to reassure him. He gets nervous on outings, and is usually sick from the ride, poor thing. When he sees something that concerns him, I give it a soft, slow pull so it holds him around the neck. It is working on the martingale now, but I use it as needed for that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Dogs do not want to please humans?
> 
> *Now, you got it!*
> 
> ...


*"WHY" do they obey is the question that we are trying to answer. And once they know what a command means, then why would they sometimes choose not to obey? Unless you are claiming that your dogs (and evidently only your dogs) NEVER choose to disobey???? Are you?*

Seriously, Selzer, you should really try to read some of the more knowledgable folks who do research on how and why dogs learn. Even some of the positive reinforcement folks, writing about "why dogs do what they do", understand that dogs essentially are "looking out for what is in it for them".


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Codmaster, I do not see in what areas you are proud of your dogs. 

I am proud of mine. They do what I ask of them. I can trust all of them 100% of the time, leash or no leash. Arwen did not make UDX, no. I was still putting RNs on my other dogs when she died rather unexpectedly. She did take first every time I showed her in obedience though since you asked.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sue, I agree if you are doing RNs there's really no need for a prong collar. I've not use a prong collar to train anything that would show up on an RN course.

I do use a prong for many other things that have nothing to do with Rally. By all means be proud of your dogs and their titles, but realize that comparing and RN to training for something like a P3 is apples and oranges. It's not surprising you would not see the need or the value in using a prong, just like I've never really seen the value of a Halti or Gentle Leader b/c I've never used one or had a dog that could benefit from one.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I like to use a prong for teaching of heel position. It is not necessary though, of course. With Sylvia Bishop's methods one can see very precise heeling trained with a flat collar.

I do like the pinch for helping to steer the position as in the way M. Ellis illustrates in his training material. I also use a very loose prong in an interesting way to build some animation into the heeling ala Celeste Meade's methods. 

It is just a tool. It can be used so many ways that to talk about the "need" for it is not really much of a point to me.

I have a robust and exuberant young male. I love love a rowdy going dog and don't feel a huge motivation to control him all the time. With him a prong collar is nice in case something catches his eye and he wants to investigate or he gets excited to see a friend. One day he will be very obedient even in high powered situations, but at this point it just isn't my goal to have him quietly quiet all the time. I love rambunctious youth, so a prong can help save the old lady's back and elbow. This is a personal approach I have to the high spirited though.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Codmaster, I do not see in what areas you are proud of your dogs.
> 
> *Where don't you see this? I am very proud of my GSD for being a great representative of the breed - good with kids and cats and very good with most people (except for the weird ones!). He is brave and protective - never has backed down or acted afraid of anything in his life and is extremely curious about what goes on around him. I also know that, being a dog, like all dogs, he is not 100% **reliable in his obedience and plan for this.*
> 
> I am proud of mine. They do what I ask of them. I can trust all of them 100% of the time, leash or no leash. Arwen did not make UDX, no. I was still putting RNs on my other dogs when she died rather unexpectedly. She did take first every time I showed her in obedience though since you asked.


Very sorry that your dog died unexpectedly! Actually, I didn't ask if she took first, just mentioned that I asumed that she must have scored all perfect 200's, since she knew what you wanted, BEFORE you even told her what it was AND she just lived to please you. Almost doesn't seem fair to the other dogs in her class and the entire show!

Do you happen to remember what her scores were? I think you said she had a CD, right. So you could have showed her only a few times in the ring.

And you might find it really interesting to actually find out what far smarter people than I say about a dog's real motivation for obeying a human - maybe some one like jean Donaldson, for example. 

Have you ever heard of her? If not, let me know and I will look up a reference so you can learn about what she thinks of why a dog listens to a human. (Hint: it is not "they live to please us!")


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> Lazy people use e fences??? REALLY?


 
Read my post again, I said lazy was a bad term. I feel IMO that on 10 15 or 20 acres of land it would cost too much money to put in a e-fence, why not do it on your own? What would be the reason? No time? Too cold? There is no reason and that's where I came up with the "lazy" term. I am just going from the people I know that have no medical condition and believe me they are lazy. Sorry if I offended you.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Ziva is a big girl we've only had slightly over 3 months. Long story short: we adopted from a local rescue in July. They weren't truthful about her personality (actually, we think they deliberately "ran-thru" a hard-to-place dog). We didn't know any better & were looking to "jumpstart" her training. So we went with Board & Train. 4 weeks, 2 different facilities & $2500 later, we have the same issues plus a couple she picked up while away. But no matter - we love her & she's stuck with us!

She was emaciated @ 70 lbs & had no manners. Standard choke chain did nothing - she drug me across a wet lawn like I was waterskiing. Switch to Gentle Leader - it rubbed her muzzle raw because she was pawing at it. Halti collar distracted her, too. Martingale wasn't any better than the choker. Ecollar is out of the question. I gave in to the prong - but just for now. I don't like it, but there's improvement. This kind has extra links that may be added for a good fit. (Our last idiotic trainer put one on her that was 3" too short...she was being poked just standing in 1 place. Which led to a mouthing problem now...)

I'm hoping to get her out of it ASAP. But we have some serious issues with her for which she responds to nothing else. In fact, her Jumping Gee-Ho-Sa-Fat problem gave me a golfball-sized bump on my cheek & a black eye that is finally fading - as I was leaning over, she jumped up & our 2 hard heads collided. She did not have the prong on at the time. Because of her current size (85 lbs), that is the only way I can control her until she masters the heel. (Or, until she learns to listen for longer than 2 minutes!)

I'd love to find a good trainer. So far, no such luck. So, until I do, I have to use this thing...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

> I gave in to the prong - but just for now. I don't like it, but there's improvement. This kind has extra links that may be added for a good fit. (Our last idiotic trainer put one on her that was 3" too short...she was being poked just standing in 1 place.


If someone wanted to try a prong and didn't have a trainer, how do they know if the prong is fitted properly?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

How to fit a Prong Collar

But I also recommend that you really try to find a trainer that can show you how to use it correctly. Timining is everything with a prong collar as well as the intensity of the correction. Too light is nagging and too hard will shut the dog off (or ramp him up).


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If someone wanted to try a prong and didn't have a trainer, how do they know if the prong is fitted properly?


How to fit a prong collar.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Very sorry that your dog died unexpectedly! Actually, I didn't ask if she took first, just mentioned that I asumed that she must have scored all perfect 200's, since she knew what you wanted, BEFORE you even told her what it was AND she just lived to please you. Almost doesn't seem fair to the other dogs in her class and the entire show!
> 
> Do you happen to remember what her scores were? I think you said she had a CD, right. So you could have showed her only a few times in the ring.
> 
> ...


Well, I looked it up, I got a 190, and two 186.5 scores. What you must understand is that it is not just the dog that is measured here but the stupid greenhorn handler next to the dog. 

I asked a judge in Rally once why I got the score that I got, I thought it was a perfect run. I got score of 89 and 90 out of 100 (two dogs in Rally). The judge told me she loved the dogs, they are great, she wanted to get them a new handler. She then told me that I stepped 1 step back, then two steps, and then two steps again instead of three -- automatic ten point deduction for handler error. The dogs would have had a 99 and 100 (I did the same thing with both dogs -- how she viewed the steps). These were Babs and Arwen. Babs had the leash looped around her ear the entire run. 

Obedience is different then rally, you have to master yourself as well as your dog, Like you can have one hand up at your waist, not the other, or you can have both swinging. I still have problems with left and right, and most of my mistakes in the ring have to do with what my body is doing as much of the dogs, like calling the dog to front with your hands in front of you instead of at your sides. 

But you are right, I showed her four times in Rally, my first time in the ring I NQd for blowing by a sign just missed it, automatic NQ. She placed fourth twice -- one was that issue above. And second once. When I got her second place I took her to the local shelter with my brother in the car. I told her, I want BLUE ribbons, not RED ribbons. My brother LOOKED at me. (I went there to drop off the free food samples they gave us at the show.)

But she did give me three blue ribbons after that, and the she died.
I only took her into the obedience ring three times. She did much better than I did. It was my first time as well.

Arwen was a special dog. She DID know what I wanted before I asked. With just a word she would leave off chasing a rabbit in full flight. I could walk all over town with her day or night completely off lead and she would stay in heel position and sit when I stopped every time. She would run alongside my bike and sit at my pedal when I stopped. I did not need a lead with her. 

She was like an extension of myself. Sometimes dogs are like that. I do not care what big name behaviorist that could tell you what line of boloney, that dog wanted to please me. I do not know how many dogs one gets like this in a lifetime. I am sorry if yours has not show up yet, but if you ever do get one like this, you might not believe those behaviorists either. 

I know what it takes to get a title, a score of 70 or 170 with two or three different judges, and in obedience at least 50% of each exercise. I know what it takes to get a college degree too. Half of those graduates graduate in the bottom half of their class. They write books, and the whole nine yards. They do not know it all.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Because it is attention ... from you - the person that controls the resources (food, toys, physical and verbal attention).
> 
> Try owning a terrier and see how much the dogs cares about 'pleasing' their owner. Unless the dog knows that there's something in it for them they are just as likely *to flip you the paw* as they are to obey.


 
Heh! Heh! Very true! 
And not just terriers either!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I have a GSD that doesn't live to please me. My new trainer calls her a "show me the money dog". I was quite familiar with seeing "the paw" from my wild child. I trained her with a prong collar in a compulsive manner. However, that was NOT a good training philosophy for her. I"m now using a positive, motivational training techniques with her and am seeing wonderful results.

Unfortunately, because she is soured on the prong collar we may never be able to use it to tweak commands. We'll see when the time comes. All I can say is, make sure you are using the correct tool for the correct reason. 

My new theory is that it is unfair to the dog to set them up to do the wrong thing so you can correct them. I really like luring her into what I want to do and rewarding her for doing it. She likes it too and does NOT shut down on me. She didn't ask to do agility, rally, obedience. So if she's not having fun, and I"m frustrated because I can't get her to do what I need to, then what is the point?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Well, I looked it up, I got a 190, and two 186.5 scores. What you must understand is that it is not just the dog that is measured here but the stupid greenhorn handler next to the dog.
> 
> *Not quite perfect, huh? Not bad scores though.*
> 
> ...


And at least *they* will admit that they don't know it all. BTW, half also graduate in the top half of their class!

*"...a score of 70 or 170... "*
Actually it takes a score of AT LEAST 170 not just exactly 170 to get a passing score in AKC obedience.

But feel free to believe whatever you want about dogs in general and esp. about your perfect dogs. After all, in America one is free to believe pretty much anything that you want to.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I think that with any type of dog training one step in it has to be some form of "proofing" the dog.

Unless you live in fairy land, how else would you know if the dog will obey your command unless you test under a heavy distraction?

Have you ever heard the most common words in an obedience class? "But he does it in the back yard!"

Meaning that one step in the training of a dog is to try as best we can that the dog will obey under a heavy distraction. If he heels real well in your back yard, will he/she also heel as well walking down a busy street (or perhaps in the ring with other dogs and people just a few steps away)? If he comes fast and without fail in your back yard or even in your obedience class, will he come if he starts chasing a rabbit in the field or if he is playing with a fellow dog in the park/

If not then he is not what I consider "well trained".

I have lost count of the number of experienced obedience handlers when I would be stewarding in the advanced classes who would be extremly upset if anyone dared say anything to or worse, try to pet their dog as they were waiting to go into the ring.

How well trained could the dog be if a word from someone - Hi! would affect their "obedience"?

*Proof* your dog and KNOW how good he/she is in obeying you! 

Just a thought!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> I think that with any type of dog training one step in it has to be some form of "proofing" the dog.
> 
> Unless you live in fairy land, how else would you know if the dog will obey your command unless you test under a heavy distraction?
> 
> ...


What exactly does that have to do with the price of rice in China?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> And at least *they* will admit that they don't know it all. BTW, half also graduate in the top half of their class!
> 
> *"...a score of 70 or 170... "*
> Actually it takes a score of AT LEAST 170 not just exactly 170 to get a passing score in AKC obedience.
> ...


If I respond any more to your posts, the good fairy will come and put me in time out, so have a nice evening.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I have lost count of the number of experienced obedience handlers when I would be stewarding in the advanced classes who would be extremly upset if anyone dared say anything to or worse, try to pet their dog as they were waiting to go into the ring.


Exactly! I blew a rally trial because a person behind a row of cars starting yelling and tossing a frisbee for their dog. Jax was like "Huh? ohhh...look at that..." I was really mad at the person but after some thought I realized it was MY fault for not training under enough distraction, not training her correctly so she had motivation to work with me and my fault because I allowed it to distract me as well.

When I talked to my new trainer about this the consensus was that a lot of people are just controlling their dog but the their dogs aren't truly trained. She said that many ppl get upset with her because she'll be playing with her dog before an event to get her excited to work.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Thanks to this thread, I learned just how much I don't know about what I thought I knew. Whew! What a great discussion.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> What exactly does that have to do with the price of rice in China?


You have once again demostrated a lack of knowledge of dog training (but you do seem to have a lot of youthful faith in your dogs) by your lack of knowledge or, evidently interest, in the concept of "proofing". I am happy though that I could explain it so you could understand.
You do now understand it, I hope.

I am also surprised that you are interested in the price of rice in China. Planning to visit?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Exactly! I blew a rally trial because a person behind a row of cars starting yelling and tossing a frisbee for their dog. Jax was like "Huh? ohhh...look at that..." I was really mad at the person but after some thought I realized it was MY fault for not training under enough distraction, not training her correctly so she had motivation to work with me and my fault because I allowed it to distract me as well.
> 
> When I talked to my new trainer about this the consensus was that a lot of people are just controlling their dog but the their dogs aren't truly trained. She said that many ppl get upset with her because she'll be playing with her dog before an event to get her excited to work.


Very true - it is amazing how many people and dogs are like this.

One place where you see a lot less of "unproofed" dogs is in the true professionally trained dogs - protection and hunting dogs are two areas that come to mind. The dogs there tend to be closer to 100% - not perfect but much closer.


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

*i've decided no prong*



gypsyrose said:


> this question has been batted back and forth all day at work between my wife and i. I used a choke collar a few times at around six months but went back to her flat collar i dont like choke chains and wont use one and my wife thinks prongs are inhumane. at twelve months Gypsy sits and down and stay for food or toy and michel elis videos on line has her working of lieash in her pen as well now here is my delima i live in the country (peace and quit) gypsy has every thing possable to smell and track, i have all ways let go in front in the brush she backs out well and hardly ever tangels on a twenty foot lead. she also heels really well on black top or side walk but animals of every driscription two legged and four except horses she want to lung at and play. her head goes down as soon as we get in the ruff except in her run and she forgets every thing she knows. should i get a prong collar???


 I'v decided against a prong coller or shock coller for Gypsy. we are making very good progress with michel ellis's training methods and would probely be doing even better if i was more compatant, how ever Gypsy is responding very well to treats and toys on our walks and has actually started minding the leash around cats and squrrels. the short of it is i'm afraid of a set back or worse if i change collers at this point i'm staying with a flat buckel on coller.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

GypsyRose, I have also struggled with the decision to get a prong or not. For now, we are also not using one. I've gotten better at redirecting Niko's attention from darting squirrels and deer, although I have to be on my guard all the time! Treats and the "Leave it" command are slowly but surely making a difference. This has been an interesting discussion.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ahh the controversial prong collar debate 

I think whatever works and whatever the handler wants out of their dog is the way to go.

I was one of those years ago, who said NEVER would I use a prong. Until I got a high energy girl who was ready to pull my arm out of the socket and a correction on a flat buckle or choke didn't send the message.

Put a prong on her, and poof, much better attention , my arm stayed in tack, and since I was planning on going into obedience, it definately helped firm things up. It was pretty easy to transition from a prong to reg collar. Tho obedience wasn't her 'nitch', she got a CD in 3 trials with scores of 190/195/197 and one was an HIT. 

I've never had to use them on my aussies, they were not aggressive pullers and don't weight 70lbs plus. 

Masi has been worked on a prong, she is a powerful dog, and again, I'm not that strong of a person, it's been a very easy transition for her as well but there are times when I still keep a prong on her.

I think a prong is a godsend for people with disabilities, who have STRONG determined dogs, and I think it' can be a great training tool. 

I also think 'to each his own', and kinda like 'don't knock it till ya tried it'...I do not recommend them on 'soft' dogs, it may be a bit to harsh and turn them into jello)


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ahh the controversial prong collar debate
> 
> I think whatever works and whatever the handler wants out of their dog is the way to go.
> 
> ...


I was also one of those people that did not believe in prong collars, Sinister is 80 pounds (maybe a little bit more) and Rogue is a little over 70 pounds. Being that Rogue has Husky in him he is very strong and he pulls me, because of my disease I have a hard time holding him back so I caved and got both of them a prong collar and it was like magic! I only had to make a couple corrections and that was it, they both walk great on the leash and walk by my side. 

My cousins Rott is so strong that she can barely walk him, I let her use my prong collar and she loved it, she bought one for him later that day.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Rerun said:


> I don't really know what the issue is with continuing to use one. Training is an ongoing process. I'd rather have the prong there and not need it than need it and not have it. Even my 7 yr old who is very well trained occasionally uses selective hearing on lead. I prefer to use light prong corrections than the pulling/jerking movement of a flat collar.
> 
> I think dogs can be trained in a variety of manners, and to each his own. But personally speaking I find the prong produces better results in a quicker time period. Many might argue that they should've trained the puppy better from the get go and the reason they have an out of control 9 month old is because they didn't work with it. Well, what happens when you adopt that 9 month old out of control dog and it drags you down the street? I guess you should work out more to control it! I don't think so. IMHO anyone should be able to walk a well trained dog, and if the prong accomplishes that then why should anyone judge. If the dog isn't pulling, the collar works no differently that a flat collar! If they pull, they get a correction. It's as simple as that.
> 
> I don't "retire" my dogs from prongs, they always wear them on walks. Do the adults pull, no. Are they perfectly trained robots, no. Occasionally they need a correction or a reminder to pay a bit more attention to the length of the lead when they are on a free walk vs a heel. Might stop and talk to a neighbor, and the dog gets impatient and doesn't want to maintain a stay - light correction and the conversation can continue on.


Wow this discussion was a long read!! Had to quote this post though as I feel the same way. With that said, here's my 2 cents:

1. I also plan on always using a prong. My dog is 10 months old and has been wearing one since he was 6 mo. Do I ever have to correct him nowadays? I can't remember the last time I did... But he's a dog, not a robot, and one with lots of drive at that (drive that I've been developing for Sch). I plan to use it as a reminder if my dog decides it's time to chase a squirrel. Again, does it happen? no, but I'd rather have a prong and not need it then need it and don't have it

2. I've been thinking about gentle leaders and how they became so successful. I wonder if they were so successful if they were called neck twisters or head pullers? I believe that each owner should use what he feels is best for his dog. With that said, I wonder if head halters are in a way more compulsory than prong collars? When a correction is applied using a prong, the dog has to make the decision of whether to keep pulling or not. When a dog reaches the end of the head halter his head will be pulled back and he'll have to twist his head back, twist his body back, and then pull. It's like forcing a dog into a down (positive punishment bordering on compulsion) rather than witholding the reward until the dog downs (negative reinforcement). I don't know, what do you all think? (I'm not being sarcastic here, I really want to know other people's opinions). But please ignore my terrible analogy) 

3. I think prongs have a high potential for abuse, but if you are the type to get a GSD I would hope you are the type of person to take some time to learn how to train a dog and use a collar correctly. Nothing hurts me more than seeing a dog getting jerked repeatedly by a prong or choker until he practically melts to the ground (learned helplessness?). Thank god I don't see it often! My dog (who is young) never yelped from a prong correction because I take care to match the level of correction with his drive. On a walk a slight tap is all that's needed to refocus him. When he's in drive, he needs a stronger correction (still not at a level that would break his spirit). I think it's a great training tool that should be used CAREFULLY.

4. I was lying when I said nothing hurts me more than seeing a dog being jerked around by the collar. Nothing hurts me more than seeing a frantic out of control dog choking himself out on the end of a leash on a flat buckle collar while his owner is screaming "fluffy sit, sit fluffy, sit, sit siitttttt"


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