# Frustrated and ready to give up



## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

Hello again-

I've posted a few times over the past 3 weeks since we brought home Buddy. He has been plagued with diarrhea almost since the day we brought him home. We've worked with the vet (anti-biotics, de-worming, fluids, etc. ) and the breeder (changing/eliminating food in his diet) and no results. For the most part he has extremely loose pancake-batter stools or just extremely watery stools. 

He came home on a diet of Fromm's Gold with cottage cheese, evaporate milk, canned food, pumpkin and yogurt and over the past three weeks working with the breeder and the vet we've elminated everything except the yogurt. He is now on Taste of the Wild with a tablespoon of pumpkin. At the best he's had about 3- 5 normal stools that occurred right when we made the change from Fromm's to TOTW last week.

We don't know what to do. He usually can only go a few hours without a bout of diarrhea and for the first time had an accident in his crate overnight ( usually he will wake us up at 1:30 AM or so.)
Housebraking can't proceed since he has to go when he has to go, understandably so, sometimes right after coming in from a walk.

We are at our wits end-- he is a runt and at 14 weeks weighs only 15 pounds. I feel like the breeder is giving us the runaround and we are on our way to incurr $$$ as we try to figure this out. I am ready to tell the breeder we need to return him. I am starting to believe she sold us a sick puppy as one of his littermates has this issue as well. 

Help?!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Hi I am sorry you are going through this. What is the breeders policy on sick puppies?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

have you treated for cocci or giardia? There's a 2 dose treatment out for cocci that has been shown to be very safe, so if it's that, within 3 days gone. ponazuril is the name. Giardia takes longer to treat and can be harder to find. 

Sadly, Illinois has no puppy lemon laws other than they can't be sold under 8 wks.


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## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

She has an initial 3 day warranty. We had him checked at the vet within 48 hours and they did not find any parasites, but treated him with anti-biotics and had us feed him chicken and rice for two days.

He can be replaced if he has any congenital or hereditary defects.. but not sure if this will qualify. 

I just heard from my husband he had another incident-- the 5th case today. I am on my way to the vets....


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I'd def have your vet run tests for cocci or giardia. 

Poor little fella!!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

The treatment for cocci is a quick one, not like it used to be, so def. treat him for it regardless. It's not very expensive either.


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## Northof60 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: greenleaf
> 
> I just heard from my husband he had another incident-- the 5th case today. I am on my way to the vets....


Best of luck. Hope he finds something to make both of your lives better.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: greenleafWe had him checked at the vet within 48 hours and they did not find any parasites, but treated him with anti-biotics and had us feed him chicken and rice for two days.


Why did the vet gave him antibiotics if nothing was found? What kind of antibiotics?

I would suspect it's giardia. Yana came with giardia and the very first night she had diarhea all over her crate. She was pooping like this for 6 times a day. We diagnosed her a month later and it took a long time to get rid of it and even longer time for her digestive system to return back to normal. Now at 2 years old she has an iron stomach but the first 6-8 months of her life it was very bad in the poop department.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Push your vet for some answers/possibilities - ask the vet what she would do if this was her own dog ... 

Is the pup getting sub Q's (for dehydration), nutrient replacement foods etc? 
There is a snap test for Giardia (but not I believe for Coccidia - both can be difficult to diagnose with fecals), did your vet consider these?
What antibiotics/treatments have you given? Any response at all?

Can you describe the appearance(color), texture (watery thin, mucousy, jelly-like), smell, blood etc

Have you read this thread ?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Treat for the coccidia as Angela suggested. Ask the vet to consider giardia.

Sending good thoughts for you and your puppy!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

First – what de-wormer did the vet prescribe?

Some worms are harder to find on stool samples than others so at this point I would use an all purpose de-wormer, like Panacur, and treat the pup for three days. You can buy Panacur over the internet without a prescription.

Are you still using the yogurt? If so – I would stop. Dairy is not a natural food item for weaned puppies and some have problems with it.

How much are you feeding? Loose stools is a common sign of overfeeding.

Here’s the scoop on Coccidia:



> Quote: It should be mentioned that stress plays a role in the development of coccidiosis. It is not uncommon for a seemingly healthy puppy to arrive at his new home and develop diarrhea several days later leading to a diagnosis of coccidia. If the puppy has been at the new home for less than thirteen days, then he had coccidia before he arrived.


You can use Albon to treat Coccidia. This may be the antibiotic your vet gave.

Info on Giardia:



> Quote: Young puppies, young kittens, immune compromised patients and dogs with multiple parasite infections are more likely to actually have clinical signs associated with giardiasis.
> Giardia can be very hard to find through fecal examinations so it is hard to be sure that it isn't present when clinical signs of diarrhea, poor weight gain or unthriftiness are present. It is best to run several fecal examinations when this infection is suspected but does not show up in the initial stool sample(s) run.
> Treatment options include metronidazole ( 25 to 30mg/kg for at least 5 days), fenbendazole (Pancur Rx) at 50mg/kg for 3 days, albendazole and furazolidone. So far, we have not tried the last two options in our clinic because one or the other of the first two has worked to eradicate the giardiasis.
> Giardiasis occurs almost everywhere there is water (the most common way for it to be transmitted, but direct contact also occurs). I think that it is probably most common around the Great Lakes, but that is only my impression based on watching postings on the veterinary message boards on the Veterinary Information Network (VIN) and noticing a lot of them on this condition from Wisconsin and that general region.


There is a more definitive test for Giardia – you can ask your vet about it.

I’m also sending you a PM.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

keep in mind albon is typically a 10 day treatment course, MUCH longer than the ponazuril being used now.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

Maybe a food like wellnes duck and rice
It is easy to digest and has few ingredients and is lower in protein and calcium then most other grain free

Jack is doing well on that and it came reecommended by a pretty good vet in Cali


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I would go one better and put him on one of the standard Pinnacle formulas, because they are virtually grain-free ("virtually", because they include oats, but oats are good, cause they're a binder), but not as "rich" as other grain-free products, which can be hard on digestive tracts.

It's easy for me to see now that Pinnacle is the way to go to stabilize a disgestion issue, IF it in fact is a digestion issue, because of all that I, and others, have gone through, too, with our pups.

If it's any consolation, my pup had crappy poops for over 4 months, and in addition to treating for coccidia, I tried 8 different brands of food. That was when I finally tried the Pinnacle formulas, which enabled me to calm down her digestive tract, and finally get normal poops.

Once I was able to calm her digestive tract, I've discovered I can actually feed other foods, but I am never again going to feed anything with Brewer's or Brown rice and barley, or anything with any other grain except oats, for that matter. I'm just getting to the bottom of an Orijen Large Breed Puppy food, on which she was solid, too, but I really believe the Pinnacle was what enabled me to calm her system enough to then try something else as rich as Orijen.

I've beat this dead horse a million times, so if you want more details, shoot me a private message, so as not bug others that might be sick of hearing it again.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I would return Buddy, and at 60 plus years of age have never returned a dog in my life. 

If your breeder does not accept the dog, frankly you got the short end of the stick. 

GSD's, at least in my opinion do have soft stools at times, but not to the extend you describe Buddie's poops.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

MrLeadFoot, it's interesting because I also settled on Pinnacle, Trout and Sweet potato for Yana even though I tried 4 other brands. Maybe, that's the secret of Yana's good digestion! (knocking on the wood).


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

TOTW should not be fed to puppies. It's not properly balanced. I would have the giardia test run and put your dog on a bland diet until this clears up. Your pup may not do well on high protein food and as long as you're feeding kibble you are going to have problems. Get the diarrhea cleared up and then start the kibble. 

Chicken breast with overcooked white rice (double cooked with twice as much water) and pureed sweet potatoes and white potatoes. I would also use a good digestive enzyme and probiotic to help the poor little guy's gut heal!


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## Jessica H (Mar 14, 2009)

All 3 of my dogs had the runs from FROMM. I tried my Cairns on it last year and it was bad. Dozer had the runs when I got him and he was on FROMM from the breeder. I put them all on Eagle Pack and they are fine. Dozer also gets pancake like diarrhea if he has a rich or flavorful bone so I try not to give him too many. I also give him homemade treats (from local store that makes them in the store with natural ingredients).
I would think that pumpkin would give a dog the runs.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

pinnacle was not good for Jack he has been the best on this wellness allergy food

AND HE EATS IT PLAIN WOOOOOO

the max you feed for a 85 lb dog is 3.5 cups it is free of everthing


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Back to topic, Greenleaf, what did the vet say/do?


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## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

Hi everyone.

We saw a different vet yesterday. He reviewed the course of treatment ( metronidazole and the de-wormer) and stated it was exactly what he would have done. He also tested his fecal sample and it was negative.

We reviewed the history of the last 3 weeks and frankly he seemed puzzled. He mentioned it could be a pancreatic enzyme deficiency but it was unlikely as Buddy is so young.

He thinks Buddy has a sensitive/immature digestive track that and this may be something he needs to outgrow. He wants us to stay on the TOTW and not to use any puppy foods. We are to mix 2/3rd of the food with 1/3rd rice three times a day. He prescribed a priobiotic in both a paste and pill form to take for 10 days. At that time we will check in with him, and if he still has issues we will mix an enzyme powder with his food. If this fixes the issue he will then test for an enzyme deficiency.

On a side note he was very familiar with the breeder and said we went to the right person for GSDs. Unfortunately, we got a problem with this particular dog ( although another litter mate is having problems too). BTW-- still have not heard back from the breeder.

This morning his stools were more formed and no longer pure water. he also has a huge appetite. I am hoping for the best over the next few days. 


Thanks for your support. I'll post in a few days when we see how things progress.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Did he do anything/talk about cocci or giardia?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

The rice has always done wonders for my dogs when they get diarrhea.I stick by that when they get poop problems.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

metronidazole is for giardia


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

I apologize for not knowing the history of your puppy but these are my thoughts.

You stated that the dog has had diareah almost since he came home with you. If you were following the exact same diet as the breeder and having loose stools, then the dog was sick to begin with and the breeder would have been aware of it. 

It's interesting to note that a littermate has similar issues so that makes the situation even worse for the breeder. He/she knows that something is wrong and should stand behind what they produce by either offering to help financially or taking the dog back. 

You, the customer, have done everything possible that was required in the contract. The breeder is supposed to guarantee a puppy free of any illness when it leaves his/her facilities. Obviously that was not done because the problem was caught within the 48 hours. 

If the dog is doing better today, then I would submit the vet bills to the breeder because you purchased the dog in good faith and did do what the contract required of you.

If nothing is done to your satisfaction, I would be going to small claims court. 

I hope whatever is ailing your puppy is resolved soon.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wmetronidazole is for giardia


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Will the TLI for EPI be valid if a dog is already on an enzyme?

I have no idea, just throwing it out there 









I Hope you find the issue, it was a long haul with Dante but now he's got perfect poops!!


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

Aspen had diaherra and we had to put her on Royal canine- all the high nutrition food gave her the complete runs. I also gave her a tsp of pepto which is fine for dogs and it totally cleared her up. I gave it to her right before bed to give her tummy time to heal. I wouldnt ever give it to her without knowing why she was having diaherra but it did work for her???


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

glad you got some help and things are improving

I had issues with Jack and had a thyroid done by Jean Dodd a really good vet in California it was sent to her

I have itching and loose stool and anal gland problems in Jack
She reccommeded the Wellness duck and rice or venison and rice and an antihistamine it is working pretty well he eats this without canned also

Before that she said to try the wellness core ocean fish or the reduced fat too much she said not good 

the wellness sensitive stomach I fell is low in protein but I have to wait to add anything else

His coat is improving and he goes to potty a whole lot less with nice formed stool

Just my experience
If the totw does not work then try the wellness


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## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

A quick update on Buddy:

All tests cam back negative for giardia and coccicia. Over the last two days we have been reducing the amount of TOTW and re-adding the Fromms and white rice. So far things are improving. we now have 50/50 chance of pancake batter or solid stools. 

We are going to see how this mix works, and if it does will gradually increase the Fromms as it has the lowest fat content. If that doesn't go well we'll start adding Pinacle.

The good thing is that it does seems diet related and not the enzyme issue. 

Thanks for all the advice..let's hope this works.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I just wanted to say that Rafi has had similar problems. After lots of experimentation I was able to get the best results with combining Orijen Senior (lower fat) and Orijen regular (regular fat) with homemade food. He just doesn't do well on a kibble-only diet.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Glad to hear it's improving, Dante had to be fed 3x a day for the first couple years of his life, perhaps even 3 to keep the happy dancing poop


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Quincy was in the exact same boat as your boy when he was a puppy. Our vet put him on metronidazole even though all parasites tests came back negative.

Things improve VASTLY for several weeks and then bam back to square one. 

It makes housetraining next to impossible. I do not know who I felt more sorry for, myself or the dog.

We did a second round of metronidazole. Only because it worked but the vet thought he just had an EXTREMELY sensitive system.

I thought I would have to micro manage what the dog injested and forever have a bottle of metronidazole on hand.

Quincy is now 18 mnth and never had another issue. My vet said lots of shepherds have immature digestive systems that mature slowly.

Luckily this was the case with us and I hope will be for Buddy as well.


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## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

Update on Buddy-

Well over the past week we had not seen any significant improvement. We even changed him to Orijen and still very runny, watery stools.

Before trying the enzymes we went to our natural pet food store where they have been making suggestions as well, and they asked again if we considered a RAW diet. At this point we were ready to try anything, so we purchased pre-made RAW lamb patties by a midwestern brand called Stella and Chewy's. Low and behold, dramatic improvement. We have very nice stools and no more waking up at 3 AM or accidents in the crate. 

It's too early to declare victory as we've seen marginal improvements whenever we've made a change followed by more issues. We are going to stick with this for a week, and if it goes well will transition in raw chicken, bones ,etc. Also, my husband is a little wary of feeding raw chicken because of hearing our entire lives that you don't give dogs chicken bones, so he wants to talk to our vet first.

Thanks again-- I will keep you posted if this works.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

95% of all vets get a 1 day class put on by purina, science diet, etc on dog food. That's usually ALL the training they get on nutrition. And you are correct, you don't give COOKED chicken bones to dogs. Cooked bones can splinter very easily. Mine are all on raw, I have 2 pups that are 11 wks old and have been on raw since they were weaned at 4wks old. 

did your vet have you try enzymes? i see where you mentioned it wasn't an enzyme issue but don't see where the enzymes were. 

If it were me, I'd order the meds for giardia and cocci and just treat myself, but that's me. (giardia can be missed numerous times before showing up)


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## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

We had two vets check for giardia and cocci ( 5 weeks and 1.5 weeks ago- both negative). Our current vet advised us to remove Buddy from puppy food, gave us a probiotic and said if this course of treatment didn't resolve the runny stools to add an enzyme powder to his diet. If the enzymes worked, he was then going to test for a pancreatic enzyme deficiency. He didn't think this was the issue however, as Buddy is only 16 weeks today. Frankly he was stumped as he knows of this breeder and has never had issues with her line before and thus far we had been doing everything he would have recommended as a treatment.

So, we decided to try the RAW diet first to avoid any unnecessary tests based on online research here and on the web, plus discussions with the owners of a natural pet food store that reported improvements in thier dogs and others by going with the raw diet. BTW- the breeder has a littermate with similiar issues that was resolved by going to 50/50 Fromms and TOTW. 

It appears Buddy is one of the small % of dogs that cannot tolerate commercial foods. That's ok with us as long as he thrives on a raw diet.

Thanks.


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## greenleaf2001 (Mar 1, 2009)

Oh, the reason we did not think it was enzymes is that whenever we have changed his food we saw an improvement in firmer stools for a day or so. Unfortunately after that time it went back to watery pancake mush.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I would try to raw diet for now, won't hurt anything. Oh and I would add some canned pumpkin. It's good for the runs and constipation. Don't know why, but it does. Alot of people add it to keep things normal, and it would probably do him well with just changing over.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

greenleaf, saw an update for your pup in another thread...I'm so happy the RAW diet is working for you and Buddy!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.Will the TLI for EPI be valid if a dog is already on an enzyme?
> 
> I have no idea, just throwing it out there
> 
> ...


Barb,
According to my vet it won't effect the test.They have to fast for 12 or 24 hrs so according to him the enzyme supplement is out of the system.

Also my vet is against RAW and says they can get splinters with the bones so most likely your vet will advise you against it.Lots of people have success so you have to do what works for your pup.Hope you get it normal.


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