# fear agression?? Need your help!



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Now it's my turn to ask for expert advice. I do need help. My Yana, 16 months old, is a shy and fearful dog and I'm working on her issues since we brought her home at 8 weeks. I haven't witnessed what happened yesterday since I was out with our puppy for his puppy class. When I returned my husband told me a story and suggested to find a different home for Yana. 

What happened was that she sneaked out of our fenced backyard (my husband was working on the garden there and she was hanging out with him) and instead of returning back or staying on the front lawn especially that my husband went to get her right away she ran down the street to the neighborhood park full of kids and their parents barking at everybody there.

She was running to them, coming very close, stopping, starring into their eyes and barking their horrified faces with her hackles up, then she was going to the next person, then barking at a kid in a stroller, then she scared the **** out of a small dog and was almost hit by the dogs owner who carried a stick. All this time she did not respond to my husband trying to call her back or get a hold of her. 

After her barking spree she returned home on her own and waited for my husband at the entrance door. Something like this never happened before, she is a pretty obedient dog and it looked like some switch was turned off in her head and her mind went blank. 

My husband wanted to find her a different home since she was 3 months old but I wanted to give her a chance with us. Now he's so pissed off that I just don't know what to do. Yana is a very good natured dog, I love her, train her and I became pretty good in recognizing what can trigger her into a fearful state. But in this case it looks like there were no trigger and that scares me. I will appreciate any advice and insight into this. I need your help. Thank you.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

This sounds totally understandable to me! Yana needs a chance. Hubby may be a bit ticked off, as she refused to respond to him, but.. wasn't she overstimulated by running, chattering kids? Has she been proofed and trained on and offlead both around exactly these types of high-intensity distractions? If not, that is your answer... as great as it is to gently work along with a fearful dog, they need exposure to kids, parks, even crowds, too-- in time. Maybe this was a new situation for Yana? What I am trying to say is, it sounds like she was never trained/proofed around such activity, never had a solid recall under these conditions, and initially approached because the activity stimulated her sense of curiosity, wonder, and maybe prey drive too.. and then when she got there, felt hyper-stimulated by the crazy activity, the new situation, and hubby's frantic demands were not something she was used to responding to in a busy, active situation like this. (and, has hubby himself work with her on recalls in situations with high activity? If not, he can better understand why she did not come for him)

Has Yana been a bit sheltered with her fears? If not or if so, still, time to work with her in increasingly busy, active situations-- on lead. Then progress to using a longline/draglead, in a safe area. Then-- off-lead would come last, once she is reliable under active situations both on-lead and with the draglead on her.

Try not to panic. She was loose, excited, thrilled, horrified, stimulated. You probably can really do more training with her in such stimulating situations, working on focus and recall. This is do-able! She is young, and you have time-- and you can make a plan for working with her.







Find a supportive trainer who understand fearful dogs, and does not overwhelm her or use harsh methods with her-- but who will gradually help you to work her in increasingly busy situations, demanding more of her with time, proofing until she is solid.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Yana, was just over stimulated by being out on her own. That is what caused her behaviorr. Weak nevered dogs aren't the easiest to live with, the do really well with routines, they are comfortable with routine so it makes it easier for them to live. 

I see a problem in your house if your husband isn't on board keeping her. I have found that weak nerved fearful dogs don't do well if someone in their home doesn't like them or is distant with them. Many can be hyper sensitive to the people or dogs in their pack. 

One thing your husband needs to try to do is to understand Yana, genetics cause her to be this way she didn't choose to be this way. It would be like you husband saying he doesn't like people with Blue Eyes, they can't help it they were born with Blue Eyes, Yana can't help it she was born with weak nerves. So you really need to try to get your DH on board with keeping Yana or I am afraid it would be best for Yana to try to find her a new home. 

I am sure that the new puppy has taken your time away from Yana and I am sure she feels that way also. You have upset the routine of the pack. Normally I would say to get rid of the pup, but if your DH can't be open minded about Yana then poor Yana needs a family that will understand her and appreciate her.

I really get upset with people who only want to kick these poor dogs to the curb. Monther nature wasn't kind to them matching up drives and nerves and then humans don't want to work with the problem.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Questions...

1. What is this dog's background? Did you rescue her? Is she from a breeder? If so, what's her pedigree like?

2. How did she "sneak out" of a fenced in yard? If this yard is secure, and the gate was left open by your husband while gardening then that is an issue. She was set up to fail.

3. Give us a snapshot of what a normal week in her life is right now. How much training/socializing does she get in a given week? How much of that does your husband participate in? If he is not working with her, why does he feel she should come to him amidst distraction?

For the meantime this dog needs to be secured at all times.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger Monther nature wasn't kind to them matching up drives and nerves and then humans don't want to work with the problem.


Normally it's not Mother Nature's doing either, it's the human breeder (or attempt at a breeder) that is responsible. Once again a "dog problem" that's really a human problem.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

Yana is only 16 months old. I don't find it surprising that she would take off without a lead on. Most 16 month old dogs do not have solid recall. Why would your husband want to rehome her because of this?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thank you for your responses! I will try to answer the questions and give more details to the picture. John, you are right, it's not a Mother Nature, it's the breeder that we picked our pup from at 8 weeks.


> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 1. What is this dog's background? Did you rescue her? Is she from a breeder? If so, what's her pedigree like?
> 
> ...


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

John, you know that you can take two great dogs and get a pup that has a nerve problem. I don't see the breeder inside a female arranging genes for each pup. Yes the breeder is responsible for putting the sire and dam together, but after that they no control over how the genes match up. Good imprinting is important also and that the breeder has a lot to do with.

Weak nerved dogs are so very interesting to live with, they test your skill as a trainer to adapt to what they need. They test your heart and resolve, because it is far easier to get rid of a dog than to work and make that pup/dog the best that it can be.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

O.K.,

So you're working your butt off with her, and she is a bit weak nerved. This does not make sense. A fearful dog that was actively seeking out things that illicited a fear resonse from the dog and then hackeling and barking at them? These behaviors contradict themselves.

How well does your husband read dog body language? Have you spoken to anyone else that was a witness to this event?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Wisc.Tiger, yes, my husband doesn't love her very much, unfortunately, but he likes her. Now Yana is a nice dog to live with in a house, she starts coming out of her shell and shows more affection to me, and she loves my husband.

If not me he would let her go long time ago. Yes, it's not really easy to live with a dog with weak nerves especially that we were not prepared for it. We adjusted our expectations and that's why I got a second pup for doing what I initially wanted to do with Yana. My husband trusted me and trusted Yana because she started changing but yesterdays episode freaked him out and he's afraid she can bite somebody next time.




> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerI really get upset with people who only want to kick these poor dogs to the curb. Monther nature wasn't kind to them matching up drives and nerves and then humans don't want to work with the problem.
> 
> --- Well, if I didn't want to work with the problem then I don't know who would and maybe in that case I just have to admit I failed and let somebody else with more skills to do it. If it makes Yana happier I would go for it. I do love this dog and I do want her to have a good life she deserves.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

GSD07, weak nerved dogs that are worked with learn to rely on their handler. Also I have found that in times of stress my weak nerved gal is more comfortable when I put a leash on her. It is like an umbillical cord, the dog knows that the handler is in control and much more relaxed and able to handle stressful things.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

It is hard to say if Yana would bit or not. Dogs have two responses to threat or perceived threat and it is fight or flight. She might have been putting on a BIG show of what she felt was Bravado.... but in reality she was scared. She wanted to explore but at the same time she was scared that someone would approach her, so she put on the barking and running up to people barking. 

So unless I or someone really qualified could watch her, just over the internet it is hard to say how much pressure it takes for her to bite. My DeeDee's first response is to run, but I am sure if pressed hard enough or backed into a corner at some point she would bite. I really can see her just shutting down first and curling up in a ball.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> A fearful dog that was actively seeking out things that illicited a fear resonse from the dog and then hackeling and barking at them? These behaviors contradict themselves.
> 
> --- This puzzles me too. She never seeks attention from people because she's uncomfortable with them. I need ask around if somebody else saw what happened because I don't think my husband can read dog body language very well. He said it was a scary even and everybody she barked at were very frightened and that she acted very agressively.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

GSD07, I would venture to guess that she was over stimulated by the freedom, but it scared her at the same time, so she was acting like a wild child. 

Getting over stimulated is one sign of weak nerves, they just don't have enough nerve to be able to process things in a normal fashion.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerJohn, you know that you can take two great dogs and get a pup that has a nerve problem.


Very true, but a good breeder will know that a pup is weak nerved early on and not try to pass that dog off as a SAR candidate!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Well that could be a whole thread all on it's own....... Bet the breeder thought they were producing the best all rounds GSD's....


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Patti, thank you for your supportive post! I worked on Yana socializing and training in different locations but I guess I need to take a step back and start over if it's going to help her. Also the situation wasn't new to her because we go to that park a lot to do obedience and retrieving. The only new thing was that she was completely on her own. I think that Wisc. Tiger is right and Yana didn't know what to do with the freedom and the scared people around. I wish she would just respond to my husband calling her.

LandosMom, my husband is afraid that she is like an agressive time bomb that comes off when the least expected. If she would just ran off and wouldn't come back when called then he would be irritated but not so upset. He and I just want to understand what is going on with Yana and if it's possible for us, not professional trainers, to deal with it.

Wisc.Tiger, yes, Yana feels safer on leash with me. I can take her to a fair with tons of people and she'll be fine in a crowd if nobody pays attention to her. I started going to Petsmart where I put her in sit/stay or down/stay (she's on a leash) and she won't break it and if she's unsure she wants my eyes contact and she's fine. Also I always believed her reaction is flight that's why I don't know why she approached the people with barking. Is it possible she felt that the park belongs to her and that's why she had to scare them off even though she was afraid? Can the recent spaying have something to do with her change of attitude?

I am trying to keep the balance of my family and I don't want my husband to live in a fear of a law suit either. I love him more than the dogs (sorry GSD people







) but the dogs are a part of our family and I love them too, and I have to decide how to proceed...


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerWell that could be a whole thread all on it's own....... Bet the breeder thought they were producing the best all rounds GSD's....


Isn't that the truth. I don't buy puppies, but I buy a lot of dogs. One thing I've learned about breeders and vendors; treat them like used car salesmen. Doesn't mean they are all crooked, but there are some that don't know what straight dealing means.

DFrost


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

How recently was she spayed?? 

I believe that the Spaying and the change in hormones does affect dogs and I also believe the weak nerved more sensitive females have more problems. When I had DeeDee spayed I thought for about 8 weeks that we might have to have her PTS. The first few days I thought it was just a reaction to the anesthesia, but after two days I knew something else was wrong. She just couldn't handle any thing that was normal here at home and she would get so locked in her fear place I couldn't reach her. 

Val


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

She was spayed less than a months ago. She took it very badly, was very depressed for almost three weeks. Now she's finally returned to normal (or that what I thought).


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I had even tossed around the idea of talking witht he Vet about some hormone supplement or Herbal supplement that simulates hormones. I really think it took about 8 weeks for DeeDee to get close to her normal self.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

"The time when she didn't come back was when she was off-leash (after tracking on hay fields) and two dogs approached her and she turned around and ran to my car without responding to me. It was a while ago."

These 2 dogs were Kayos and Havoc this past winter. It scared the **** out of both of us. We had been tracking and Yana had done well, she had been pretty social with other dogs and the hay field was fenced on 3 sides and our cars were quite a ways off. Kayos and Havoc approached and Yana bolted and ran, as the chase "game" was on Kayos and Havoc chased her. No aggression, just chasing. Havoc returned on the first recall to me. Kayos did not, but came back on the second or third call, after crossing the road! Yana stayed by her car which is what she knew as a safe place. 

Very BAD mistake on my part and thankfully no dogs were hurt or hit by cars. No one barked or growled, I know mine wanted to play but Yana was terrified. Neither Oxsana or I thought she would do that and we both learned a very valuable lesson that day.

Yana is weak nerved. About 50% of what this breeder puts out is weak nerved. I saw Yana's brother in the breed ring at a dog show last week, he is lovely and has a very nice outgoing temperament. I have had a few of these dogs in my CGC class, some are okay some are not. The beginning obedience class Yana just finished was mine. Initially she was very shy but by the last week she actually tolerated a stand for exam. She is making progress. She is also becomig socially mature and I wonder if her adulthood and maturity may cause her more confusion. Very possible her hormones are still adjusting as well.

I suggested the agility class as a confidence booster for Yana and I still think she should go, just exercise care and keep her on leash. I doubt it could hurt her as long as she is kept safe, mentally more than physically.

Yana seems to be a dog that one has to work in very small increments with. I think Oxsana has done a pretty good job with her. She seems to know when to let folks approach her and when to not. She is not a poor handler either, she has pretty decent dog savvy and does not cater to Yana's fears. A weak nerved dog makes you that way I think. 

If Yana were to be re-homed who would take her? Would the breeder take her back and then pass her off on someone who had no clue what kind of dog she was? Would she then be passed around and end up being PTS in a cold shelter? This happened to a dog from this breeder in another near by town. 

No one can make this decision and the humans in the relationship come first. If I had no females I would take Yana. If I had not just gotten Havoc I would take Yana. She is a sweet dog just cannot help who she is. I keep hoping Anton will help her be a bit more outgoing as they do learn from each other.

My Max is weak nerved and we have managed him and kept him safe. He is never off lead and I use a GL with him as it seems to calm him. Maybe be something to try with Yana. I used to walk Max and Kayos together when Kayos was younger. Not a good idea as he tried very hard to rub off on her when he would react to things. You do not want Anton to be reactive and pick up on bad habits that Yana has. So I would walk them separately until Anton is older.

I would keep up on obedience with her but work slowly with HIGH rewards and maybe use a long line at parks so you can keep her from running off. Fear is not something that will repsond well to corrections. But on the other hand you must insure you do not inadvertently reward the fear either by bad timing with counter conditioning. I would reward prompt response to obedience commands and ignore everything else. Remain totally calm when she is around things that may scare her. I would also ignore her then too as I continued on my way with the most confident stature I could muster up. 

I hope this works out. I truly, truly do. Put a clip on the gate that has to be manually put on and taken off as reminder to fully latch gate. This has happened to me too and the clip helps to insure I check the gate.

Your class starts on Wed??? I have to pick Havoc up at the vets sometime Wed. If I have a chance I will stop by class.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: A fearful dog that was actively seeking out things that illicited a fear resonse from the dog and then hackeling and barking at them? These behaviors contradict themselves.


They do seem very counterintuitive but I've seen identical behavior. Almost like the dog is so sure that the threat is a threat that they're making a pre-emptive strike. I long term fostered a dog who was terrified of other dogs and men. Unlike 99% of the fear aggressive dogs I've dealt with he didn't avoid them - he'd seem okay for a minute and then he'd hackle and the next thing you'd know he'd be barking his head off right in their face - actively engaging and moving to them not away. Not surprisingly, they'd get scared and react and then it was like that just proved his point that they were scary - kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Actually it's a really common behavior in small dogs. Those little dogs going after your big dog? We all joke about the "Napoleon complex" but rarely are they actually dominant. Usually they're terrified and somehow think this is the way to neutralize the threat.









It took me a loonngg time working with my GSD boy and non-reactive dogs to get that behavior to extinguish but it was possible. 

I know where your husband is coming from Oksana - mine was the same way over the above dog. He didn't understand him, didn't understand his triggers and the unpredictable can be really scary. My husband's a great guy and he loves dogs but he's not quite the doggy loving freak that I am and he didn't trust that one because he didn't understand him. Good news is that we did get there in the end.









There may be a lot of folks that disagree with me but I will say that I'm not a big believer in dogs doing things for no reason, unpredictable behavior, switches flipping, or "red zone" cases. I think (with the exception of something very rare like a brain tumor) there's almost always a reason or a trigger or something going on in the dog's mind that makes the behavior make sense even if it seems completely incomprehensible to us. We may just have to look more closely, at a finer scale, or outside the box, but usually it's there somewhere. And that's really encouraging because if a dog is using some kind of logic - even if that logic is terribly flawed and even if their threshold is terribly low (weak nerves), then they can be worked with at least to some degree and managed. 

People do things that appear to make no sense all the time - compulsions, addictions, procrastination, you name it. Superficially, they're all terribly illogical but when you dig in some, they actually do make a kind of sense based on the way that that person is perceiving their environment and their understanding (or lack thereof) of cause and effect. I'm not anthropomorphizing dogs and I don't think they think the same way we do, but I do think there's a logic there and it's based on a combination of their genetic hardwiring and experiences. Once we figure out the logic, it gets easier to come up with counterconditioning strategies. 

Hang in there!







Sounds like you're doing things right you just had an unfortunate accident that put her in a position she wasn't equipped to handle.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

My neighbors have a 21 year old son. He is not autistic, he does not have ADHD, he does not aspergers (sp?). He is PAINFULLY shy. Why? They have no clue. He avoids people. He barely got through school, never went to prom, has a hard time finding a job. He is so shy he can barely do an interview. His mother is a teacher and she understands that even tho he has no "illness" he is clearly not within the norm for a social young man. Forcing him to interact is fruitless.

Yana reminds me of this boy. For whatever reason she is painfully shy. If you reach to pet her she will shy away from you. If you approach Oksana and just talk to her Yana will hold her ground but lean back a little. It was a huge accomplishment for her to let me touch her once brief for a stand for exam 2 weeks ago. She moved her feet and she did not like it but she was much better than she had ever been. 

I think this poor girl needs to be safe and in places where she is comfortable and when she is out, her comfort zone can't be pushed too hard. I think obedience gives her confidence. She is very smart and learns really quickly. Agility is fun and a new thing to learn and no one has to touch her. Tracking likewise uses her mind and no one has to touch her or get too close to her. 

I think she got overloaded and it terrified her. It may be a testament to her good training and the socialization she has had that she did not bite.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07She was spayed less than a months ago. She took it very badly, was very depressed for almost three weeks. Now she's finally returned to normal (or that what I thought).


Take weak nerves, adolescence, a hormone change from spaying and an open gate with her normal handler gone and you get a very unusual situation. 

Good catch Val, and Kathy is assisting along with other training. You don't need our help Oxsana, you're all over this.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy is a great hand a weak nerved dogs because she has had experience. Kathy to answer your answer, you and I are people who if we can would take a dog like Yana. Even though they are limited in some area's they have some kindness, sweetness, over pleasing at times with "THEIR" humans. I tired the braver dog by letting DeeDee bond with Lakota, he has been good for her to a point. But she now has him trained to bark and rasie a ruckus when she is getting stressed by a coming storm or what ever. It is like..... Bark, Bark, Bark, hey Mom, come and get your dog because I can't do any thing for her, Bark Bark, NOW would work well, Bark Bark, Bark.

For dogs like DeeDee and Yana, for their faults there are some really really good parts also. Those are the cherished times.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

One thing that I wanted to add... You might want to look at some TTouch for Yana. It helps them relax, the program also has confidence building excercises. It has helped DeeDee, she will never be a strong nerved dog, but she is sweet.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

pupresq, Kathy and John, thank you for your support! Yes, Yana is like what pupresq described, moving forward and barking before her threat can react, and nobody knows what she can consider a threat at any particular moment. Wisc.tiger, I will look into TTouch and do some research on that.

Kathy, thank you for your post, your nice words about Yana and me, and for the training tips. I take care of her, work with her as much as I can, I learn along the road, make my share of mistakes, and I'm always on a guilt trip because I feel that I'm failing her and I feel that I'm failing myself as well because of my mistake of picking her up at the breeder's. I love Yana, I do know how nice she is, I don't need to be reminded of that, and I don't want to let her go, and if I lived alone I wouldn't have this dilemma. But I"m not alone, and I don't want to be alone. Our agility class is on Wed at 5:30, and I'll try to come for tracking and obedience on Saturdays. I feel cornered and pressured and an easy target for those who take pleasure by being judgemental so I guess I won't be writing here anymore. I'll keep in touch by email.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

All I can tell you, is check out my Petsmart experience thread.

It is not easy to deal with an aggressive dog. But I have made it work -and taken control- atl east for now.

Good luck and keep on working!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Oksana, the one thing I have found by having DeeDee is that I have better handling skills. Up until DeeDee I have always had very strong Solid dogs that while they could be at times challenge me for the leadership role, DeeDee has brought a lot out of me. One type of training doesn't fit all, need to think what is really bothering her even if I don't think it should be a problem.

Give her a while for her to get use to the different hormone level. 

I really do understand about the DH thing, it took a while for him to understand DeeDee. When she isn't being fearful, she has great focus and ball drive. Heck I am still learning things with her. Just recently found that in windy conditions if she can be outside in the yard, she isn't in her fearful mode, but bring her inside and she starts pacing, panting and going to her safe spot. So as much as I don't like to just leave dogs out, in windy conditions I will be trying to give her more outside time.

Val


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Oksana, I am sorry if I was being judegemental. I just get upset when people with weak nerved dogs talk about finding them a new home. They are normally really great dogs as long as they can live with in their comfort zone. I am not saying they need to live in a bubble, but things like not being off leash. It is just some thing that takes time and committment of the humans.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I know Oksana does not want to re-home Yana and I think she will fight hard for her but sometimes the fight is lost. It took me a long time to understand that too as I want all dogs to be loved in thier forever home. Sometimes it just does not work out.

Oksana, my Max laid a guilt trip on me for years. We have had him for 8 years now and I still get guilty feelings about some of the mistakes I made and continue to make with him. I could run out of fingers and toes if I had to count how many times he almost went back to the shelter for the first year we had him. My husband wanted him GONE!!! I was afraid of him (Max not hubby!). 

Fast forward a few years. 2 years ago he went after the UPS guy. He bolted past Joe out the front door and chased the guy to the truck. THANK GOD he did not bite! A week later he jumped through a window to threaten a lady on the street. Again he did not bite. Imagine our guilt. He know longer has access to doors or windows. 

Fast forward again. This January he drug Joe down the street, dislocating his shoulder. I was in kentucky for my son's surgery. Joe had decided to take Max and Havoc for a walk. A loose PUPPY came up behind Max and he errupted in a rage and went after it. Havoc stood there like a good boy.

All of Max's "erruptions" have been pre-emptive strikes against perceived threats. A previous poster said they always do something for a reason and that is correct - they do. In Max's veiw of "reality" all of these were threats to him and his secure world so he lashed out to protect himself. 

We work hard at keeping Max safe but we still fail from time to time and every time we do fail it teaches us to tighten up more. And then we feel gulity as we are denying him freedom. I really think guilt goes hand in hand with these dogs. Max is getting old and we keep hoping he will calm eventually. He isn't. Now he has dementia which makes it worse. He gets walked all by himself. He is rarely out of his safe zone anymore. Now the person that looks to have him gone is me. Joe is very protective of him. Don't get me wrong here. I love Max, but I also know that he can be a liabilty. I also know that eventually if we have to restrict him to the yard and if he is unhappy, that in itself is poor quality of life and sometimes we consider if he may be better off PTS. 

I had a long talk with the vet about this already and it was her opinion that yes at some point if he has such difficulty coping it may be the humane thing to do. 

Not suggesting this is what will happen with Yana, just saying this as I really feel your pain. I had ZERO experience with this until Max. Having Max has made a better person and trainer out of me. You will learn from this and no matter what you do Yana will have some bad days. The best thing to learn is that she needs to feel secure in her relationship to her leader and she needs to be managed. Being proactive with this and confidently on guard will allow you to help her and still let her enjoy the freedom of activities out in the world. 

In essence in some ways the more we restrict Max the more freedom he has to be secure.

Please do not leave the board. I think we often tend to be hard in our advocacy for the dog. This is not wrong but it can be hurtful and we need to consider the feelings of the people involved. I am not pointing any fingers at any one other than myself.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy is right, I have made BIG mistakes with DeeDee not understanding truly what her problem was. The BIGGEST one I made was I listened to a person who said when she gets scared like that about something, then give her something different to be afraid, you make her afraid of upsetting you the handler. WELL that is the worst advice, it really wrecked my relationship with DeeDee for a long time, even now shades of it will show up until she realizes that I am not upset with her.

Weak nerves was something I just wasn't use to dealing with in all the dogs that I have had. So dealing with DeeDee and fumbling our way through things has really made me driven to try to help people so they don't make the BIG mistakes that I did.

Each of these dogs are different, different triggers, different responses. But I really believe that once people learn how to manage things life does get easier. DeeDee is my weather monitor, she will tell me if there is a storm 100 miles away and we joke that she can hear a mouse fart outside. Her hearing is what really gets her in her fear zone.

I understand what Kathy is saying that there will come a time when DeeDee's problems can't be managed any more because of age changing things in her brain.

Oksana, I know that I felt really bad at first because DeeDee had to managed, I wanted a dog that could have some freedoms, I wanted her to be my Agility dog, but if she hears any thing that resembles a gun shot or thunder she just can't handle that. Many of us on the board DO understand how you feel, you feel let down because she wasn't the dog you thought you were buying, you are frustrated because the pressure you are getting from the DH, you are just sad because this isn't what you thought you were signing up for in buying Yana as a pup. I have sat down with DeeDee several times and just had a nice cry in her mane, and DeeDee precious kissed my face and did some of her silly things to make me laugh. 

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

i love DeeDee stories! She is so lucky to have you, Val!! You totally appreciate her, give her every opportunity to succeed and do well.

I will be following Yana's story. I think you are doing the right thing Oksana, to be here seeking support. Yana is a lucky girl to have you, too!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I won't leave the board, I was just too upset so I said that. You are such a great support for me and I learn from your experience how to deal with the situation. It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one in the world dealing with the dog with issues when everybody else are enjoying themselves (I know it sounds bad like I'm happy because somebody else has problems







) I will do everything I can to convince my husband to keep Yana but I at this point I don't know how everything turns out. 

I don't know what happened that Sunday, I hope she wasn't hit by some stranger or something. Today I walked her on our street and our neighbors got out of their house and she started pulling and barking and hackeling at them. Poor people were startled and backed up. She knows them her entire life, she saw them coming out of their house hundreds times, I was stopping and talking with them with her by my side numerous times! She was on a leash and she calmed down right away because I asked her to leave it and watch me. I hope it's just the hormone thing, and I want to talk with my vet maybe they do have some hormone supplements. 

The worst thing is that Anton is picking up this behaviour from her. Without her his a super friendly puppy and with her he's her copy cat.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Oksana, glad you decided to hang in there with the board. Yea we can be a bit of a PIA some times but it is our passion that gets us in trouble.

I am not sure if your Vet is going to be helpful or not, my bet is most Vet's will say that they never heard of a bitch having problems with hormones after the spay surgery.

Time is going to be your friend right now and maybe some other things to try to get her to relax some. 

You might want to look at either ComfortZone, Rescue Remedy or a T-shrt or Body Wrap. Rescue Remedy didn't work for DeeDee, but the ComfortZone does help. Some times I use a T-shirt or Body Wrap with her, it depends. Like I said before each of these dogs are different and what works for one might not work for the next.

That is worrison that Anton is picking up her behaviors. I did keep DeeDee and Lakota separated most of the time when he was a pup. When I figured he was not going to be imprinted by her behavior then I let them have some time together. Even now I don't let them be together all the time.

Val


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I feel for you Oksana, and your whole pack. Onyx has made our life living with dogs somewhat challenging. I would love to title her in OB and get her involved more in training, she couldn't even be in the facility while there was bitework going on, she has anxiety to spare. She loves to work, though and tracking, herding are her strengths.
Too bad that Anton isn't the older one, sometimes an adjusted role model helps. Just take one day at a time and celebrate the baby steps. Have you looked into the melatonin threads? Maybe something to experiment with...


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Hoping that this dissipates as the hormones settle out. If she was barking at the neighbors she has always known it would sound like she is having an issue with either coming into herself as she reaches social maturity or her hormone levels have dropped and he is out of sorts. 

Just keep being consistent with obedience giving her something to do so she is "busy" thinking about other things when her fears start to surface.

Welcome to the world of what I call the "spastic nerfbag" They are a challenge.

I am leading Garage Group on Saturday at the park. 8:30 by the stage at Columbia Park. Then we will track. Maybe we will see you.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You can do it! 

I think it might be a bit harder with the girls from what I am seeing. 

But I just have CGCs on 5 of my dogs so far and 3 are ones that...were a lot more work than the other two. Two of those are females. If I can get one on Ilsa eventually (and I look at that to mean-years eventually) I will retire.







But the reward is great. You look at the training you need to do with your puppy-all those drives and temperament in place-it's cake really (or at least my fosters who had that balance were). You look at the training (and vigilence) you need to do with your special girl-and it's totally not cake, but the payback is huge. By the way, my two therapy dogs are the biggest instigators of the crew!

I learned a lot reading the archives at the Shyk9 Yahoo group. 

I think your husband is a lot more mad and embarassed at himself than he is your girl, but is displacing it on her (if I may have a Dr. Joyce Brothers moment here). Just like you do with her, distract him and redirect him to something more interesting. Golf? Cookies? Whatever! 

Because she will pay you back in so many ways. They are special, sensitive beings these kind of dogs who more than most want to be loved, led, and to be loyal to that person who provides them that feeling of safety.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thank you again, everyone, I truly appreciate your support! I hope my husband will see what I see in Yana. Her yesterdays agility class went very nice (it was new for both of us). I actually didn't expect her to do so well with everything and everybody so new. I asked my husband if he wants to go with us next time and see Yana being so nice and doing agility and he said 'Maybe' which is huge for him!







So maybe there is hope.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Great news!!!! I hope he does come out to watch, it was nice to see him at the agility fun match last Saturday too. 

Agility is just plain fun for the dogs and a huge confidence builder too.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> I think your husband is a lot more mad and embarassed at himself than he is your girl, but is displacing it on her (if I may have a Dr. Joyce Brothers moment here). Just like you do with her, distract him and redirect him to something more interesting. Golf? Cookies? Whatever!


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