# The Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan...love him or hate him?



## Dennq

The Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan...love him or hate him? Take a poll.


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## Lucy Dog

Where's the poll?


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## Emoore

He amuses me. The only thing that amuses me more is when people with about 5 minutes of actual dog experience try to mimic his methods. Every time I hear "Ssssst!" in Petsmart I just roll my eyes.


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## Dennq

Ssssssstt Poll should be there now.


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## selzer

I would not take the poll. I do not like his methods. But I do not HATE him.


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## Lucy Dog

I votes "He's ok" because he does seem to have his heart in the right place. He's a great personality to watch, at least entertainment wise. He takes on cases that a lot of other trainers probably won't which is a plus. I'm not a big fan of the whole alpha roll type with a nervous or reactive dog, but he does have some good methods. 

I think overall, he seems like a pretty good guy. The world (dog world included) is probably a better place with him in it.


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## sagelfn

Emoore said:


> He amuses me. The only thing that amuses me more is when people with about 5 minutes of actual dog experience try to mimic his methods. Every time I hear "Ssssst!" in Petsmart I just roll my eyes.


:rofl: I love that too

I put "he's ok"

I'm not a fan of his, I do not like most of his "methods" but he is helping more dogs than he's hurting.


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## Syaoransbear

He's okay. I like some of his methods and I dislike others.


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## Whiteshepherds

I put he's okay. I honestly believe he can read dogs and they respond to him...I'm just not sure everyone can accomplish the same things he does using his methods.


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## PDXDeutschhund

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on dog training or behavior. I'm still trying to potty train Dutch 

Watching his show, however, I think a lot of his method is based on his personal connection with dogs. It makes for an interesting show, but it's not something that can easily be taught, and even more difficult to learn. Some people just have a very calm, almost zen-like connection with animals, and I think he's one of them. The way he establishes dominance almost immediately is fascinating, but how do you teach that?

I've also watched that show, "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stilwell and I think she deals with actual methods and training tools. I found her show to be more useful as a first-time dog owner.


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## ILGHAUS

I didn't take part in the poll because I don't hate him - I just don't like most of his methods or his show. The things that he says that I agree with have been said by a hundred people before him with the difference that he is a good business man and knew how to market himself.


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## PDXDeutschhund

ILGHAUS said:


> I didn't take part in the poll because I don't hate him - I just don't like most of his methods or his show. The things that he says that I agree with have been said by a hundred people before him with the difference that he is a good business man and knew how to market himself.


It's amazing how much junk they sell at PETCO with his name on it.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I LOVE him and I don't care who knows it. HA! He really does take on the hopeless cases. He is the last resort for many dogs. I still remember the episode with the shelter rottweiler - very people aggressive, had a bite history, etc. He was to be PTS, unless he was given a chance to be on the show. That was one scary dog. I would not have approached him.
Cesar not only rehabilitated the dog, but the dog now belongs to his son. I was amazed.

And most of all - I wish I had one ounce of Cesar's calm, serene, relaxed nature. My blood pressure would be so low. No. You can't teach that. Sure wish ya could.


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## Denali Girl

Well weather you love him or hate him, like his theories or not, he takes on hard cases and helps them, alpha roll or no alpha roll it works for him.


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## ZAYDA

Can't we just leave Cesar alone..... The guy is doing good things anyway way you look at it.


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## ZebsMommy

I think he's unoriginal and (no offense) the accent irritates me. I much prefer Victoria Stillwell. Alpha rolls are mostly unsuccessful and just compound the issue. I loved the South Park episode where they made fun of him with Cartman.


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## LaRen616

I chose "he's ok"

I watch every episode of his show because I love anything dog related. I loved the episode with the 2 black GSD's :wub:. 

I dont agree with everything he does, like sticking a racket in a dogs face or forcing the dog to submit but some things I do agree with like when he exercises the dogs and tells people how important it is to make sure your dog is not fat and gets plenty of physical and mental stimulation. 

Some of the things he says blows my mind, I find myself sitting there thinking that he is a loon that somehow got a tv show. But he is helping dogs that were almost pts. So he gets points for that. So he's ok IMO.

P.S. I prefer Victoria Stillwell's positive training over Cesar, but I think she tends to give too many treats to the dogs.


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## ZebsMommy

Ok. So I just wanted to explain that one of the main reasons that I dislike him (and even though i put down hate, i really think that's too strong a word) was because as a trainer I have so mnay poeple who come to me for help and then insist that "ceasar doesn't do that" or "ceasar does it this way." It makes it hard to help someone if they are constantly trying to correct what you are saying because you are teaching a different method for a different type of dog. I agree that he helps alot of dogs who are on their last hope, and what he does is great for them, but that doesn't mean that what he does is how you are supposed to train a puppy with no issues. It ends up causing issues in my book. Anyway, that's my two cents.


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## DanielleKeith

You can't teach dominance. There are mousy people all over this world, and they are typically the ones with dogs that are out of control or mousy themselves. In human groups, a "rank" of status is immediately formed in any situation. Dogs size us up just by reading posture and body language, the same way we spot people and read everything they aren't saying. We say more with mannerisms and with gestures than we do with words. 90% of all communication is nonverbal. People giving their weaknesses away with their body language is hard to correct. I know dogs pick up on it. My dog does. I swear he is different on days when I feel confident and centered than he does on days where the stress-o-meter with the kid and husband and house has blown off the charts and I lose my center.


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## wildo

This is a hard poll. For me, I don't "Love" him. I marked he is OK. The thing is, I agree with the majority here in that his heart seems to be in the right place. He's helping dogs, regardless of his methods. A lot of the cases he takes probably would have a much different outcome if it were not for him.

The interesting part is that while I have come to question some of his methods- if it were not for Cesar, his show, and his books (of which I've read two of the four), there is little chance I would have considered putting Pimg in an obedience class. Cesar is in many ways my "gateway drug" into the world of obedience and basic dog care. I probably wouldn't be as interested as I am if it were not for him.

So maybe I should have marked "love him" after all.


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## Klamari

Like Syaoransbear said, I think he's ok. I think some of what he does works, and other stuff, ehhh.


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## Emoore

DanielleKeith said:


> You can't teach dominance.


Not to be argumentative, but I think you can. I'm a fairly quiet, go-with-the-flow person. In a human "pack" you could call me submissive. But over 7 years of fostering has taught me dog dominance. I'm still people-submissive but have developed what my mom calls "Dog Gravitas."


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## PaddyD

Emoore said:


> Not to be argumentative, but I think you can. I'm a fairly quiet, go-with-the-flow person. In a human "pack" you could call me submissive. But over 7 years of fostering has taught me dog dominance. I'm still people-submissive but have developed what my mom calls "Dog Gravitas."


Agreed. That is the main thing Cesar tries to teach. Part of his lack of permanent success is because some people can't bring themselves to show dominance to their 'babies'.
Many seem to think of dominance as being harsh when all it is is letting your dog know who is REALLY in charge.


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## Sunstreaked

Besides the alpha roll thing, what else does he do that some don't like?


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## LaRen616

Sunstreaked said:


> Besides the alpha roll thing, what else does he do that some don't like?


I dont like that he corners dogs and I dont like that he sticks rackets in their face.


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## Denali Girl

LaRen616 said:


> I dont like that he corners dogs and I dont like that he sticks rackets in their face.


 
I'm playing "devil's advocate" for a bit. You don't like it but is it hurting the dogs?


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## PaddyD

Denali Girl said:


> I'm playing "devil's advocate" for a bit. You don't like it but is it hurting the dogs?


So I guess he should approach a known aggressive dog without protection? aaaawwwwww ppppoooooo puppy 
Wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of a dog that bites.


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## LaRen616

I just said I dont like it.

I wouldn't approach an aggressive dog in the first place so I wouldn't know how to approach one correctly but I personally wouldn't chase a dog and corner it and I wouldn't stick a racket in his face either.

You asked what I dont like about him so I told you.

:shrug:


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## gsdraven

Emoore said:


> Not to be argumentative, but I think you can. I'm a fairly quiet, go-with-the-flow person. In a human "pack" you could call me submissive. But over 7 years of fostering has taught me dog dominance. I'm still people-submissive but have developed what my mom calls "Dog Gravitas."


:thumbup: Me too. I'm a very quiet person and actually prefer to be in the background when it comes to people. I haven't been fostering as long as Emoore but I have been doing it for a couple of years and my fosters (as well as all the dogs I evaluate) definitely do not walk all over me.



PaddyD said:


> Agreed. That is the main thing Cesar tries to teach. Part of his lack of permanent success is because some people can't bring themselves to show dominance to their 'babies'.
> Many seem to think of dominance as being harsh when all it is is letting your dog know who is REALLY in charge.


However, I do not "dominate" my "babies". I show calm, consistent and fair leadership without worrying about showing them who's boss all the time.


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## Denali Girl

PaddyD said:


> So I guess he should approach a known aggressive dog without protection? aaaawwwwww ppppoooooo puppy
> Wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of a dog that bites.


 
I'm not saying it's smart or I agree with it but my feelings is he has done this before and i't his show so if he chooses not to wear protection and is confident enough to do it what's the problem?


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## Denali Girl

LaRen616 said:


> I just said I dont like it.
> 
> I wouldn't approach an aggressive dog in the first place so I wouldn't know how to approach one correctly but I personally wouldn't chase a dog and corner it and I wouldn't stick a racket in his face either.
> 
> You asked what I dont like about him so I told you.
> 
> :shrug:


 
I know that's why I said I was playing devil's advocate......I agree with you.


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## LaRen616

Denali Girl said:


> I know that's why I said I was playing devil's advocate......I agree with you.


Sorry, I was responding to PaddyD


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## PaddyD

LaRen616 said:


> Sorry, I was responding to PaddyD


Sorry, I was too harsh. It's my Vermont Yankee charm.


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## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> I put he's okay. I honestly believe he can read dogs and they respond to him...I'm just not sure everyone can accomplish the same things he does using his methods.


Probably true of every pro trainer!


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## codmaster

LaRen616 said:


> I dont like that he corners dogs and I dont like that he sticks rackets in their face.


Only time that I have seen him use a racket was when the dog was trying to bite him. What would you have done with that type of dog (or what do you think he should have done instead)?


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## codmaster

Wonder how many of the folks who don't like or don't agree with his methods are advocates of "Positive only" approach to dog training? That belief would certainly be a big reason not to like Cesar's approach since he does believe in using corrections for a dog.


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## Hansel & Gretel

Hey, the guy loves dogs so he can't be that bad, right? While his methods work really good for him (and I have learned a few things from him)...but as a whole, his shtick won't work for me. 

John


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## APBTLove

I don't know about his methods working so well for him either, have you ever seen when his pack goes into a all-out brawl? All of his "PHSSST!"ing is useless.. He and his staff have to manhandle the dogs.

I do not like choking, jabbing, 'pssting', yanking, and physically making dogs do what you want.

And the whole 'alpha roll' - NO. The 'alpha wolf' does not force his or her subjects to the ground on hold them while they struggle unless she's going to do them serious harm, the lower ranking wolves roll FOR her, without a fight.

His methods are for a quick fix, they are not teaching a dog what is right and what' wrong, and using the right punishment. They are using fear, pain, and very old-school methods..

Not EVERY one of his methods are bad, I won't say that. But he is no dog training Guru. In one of his pack fights - like I said - every dog ignored him.


This dog here is terrified.. Yes, when he was physically spent he gave up. So every time he reacts to a person his owners flip him and fight him until he's given up?






I wouldn't call that a poke in the side to 'get their attention'. He put a prey animal in front of a hunting dog.. wow. 





Near the end here, he's choking her with one hand while holding her neck with the other. All she's doing is showing a normal behavior for her breed and she's with the wrong **** owners. I'm not saying don't training with your DA dog, but you're going to choke her out for reacting?




And if that's one of his toughest cases, he's missing out. I've handled several dogs like her and the biggest 'fix' is exercise and obedience. 

See, maybe I am more against it because I know what it is. Have any of you ever been choked? Truly choked? Meaning your air was cut off for more than a second or two by force on your neck/throat. It is pain, everything pounds, your head spins, it feels like every nerve in your face is screaming at you. It's ridiculous and to do it purposely to an animal as a form of punishment is ever more so.

I have used prong and shock collars on myself before putting them on my dogs. They give a quick correction, a sting that stops after a few seconds. I'm not against using them properly. I am against choking a dog until it can't fight anymore to 'correct'.


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## LaRen616

APBTLove said:


> I don't know about his methods working so well for him either, have you ever seen when his pack goes into a all-out brawl? All of his "PHSSST!"ing is useless.. He and his staff have to manhandle the dogs.
> 
> I do not like choking, jabbing, 'pssting', yanking, and physically making dogs do what you want.
> 
> And the whole 'alpha roll' - NO. The 'alpha wolf' does not force his or her subjects to the ground on hold them while they struggle unless she's going to do them serious harm, the lower ranking wolves roll FOR her, without a fight.
> 
> His methods are for a quick fix, they are not teaching a dog what is right and what' wrong, and using the right punishment. They are using fear, pain, and very old-school methods..
> 
> Not EVERY one of his methods are bad, I won't say that. But he is no dog training Guru. In one of his pack fights - like I said - every dog ignored him.
> 
> 
> This dog here is terrified.. Yes, when he was physically spent he gave up. So every time he reacts to a person his owners flip him and fight him until he's given up?
> YouTube - Imprisoned Dog
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call that a poke in the side to 'get their attention'. He put a prey animal in front of a hunting dog.. wow.
> YouTube - Dog Whisperer -- Corrections
> 
> Near the end here, he's choking her with one hand while holding her neck with the other. All she's doing is showing a normal behavior for her breed and she's with the wrong **** owners. I'm not saying don't training with your DA dog, but you're going to choke her out for reacting?
> YouTube - Cesar's Toughest Cases.m4v
> And if that's one of his toughest cases, he's missing out. I've handled several dogs like her and the biggest 'fix' is exercise and obedience.
> 
> See, maybe I am more against it because I know what it is. Have any of you ever been choked? Truly choked? Meaning your air was cut off for more than a second or two by force on your neck/throat. It is pain, everything pounds, your head spins, it feels like every nerve in your face is screaming at you. It's ridiculous and to do it purposely to an animal as a form of punishment is ever more so.
> 
> I have used prong and shock collars on myself before putting them on my dogs. They give a quick correction, a sting that stops after a few seconds. I'm not against using them properly. I am against choking a dog until it can't fight anymore to 'correct'.


Excellent post! :thumbup:


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## Dejavu

I voted "He's ok", cause I like how he cares about dogs. 
His methods might not be the best, but some of them have worked for some. Some of the people shown on TV, I mean. I don't know anyone in real life who uses his methods to train their dogs.
I have also gotten a few useful tips from him like walking my dogs everyday.



APBTLove said:


> I don't know about his methods working so well for him either, have you ever seen when his pack goes into a all-out brawl? All of his "PHSSST!"ing is useless.. He and his staff have to manhandle the dogs.


Does anyone know if/where there's a video of this?


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## Klamari

APBTLove said:


> I don't know about his methods working so well for him either, have you ever seen when his pack goes into a all-out brawl? All of his "PHSSST!"ing is useless.. He and his staff have to manhandle the dogs.


Now, I'm not saying I agree with all his methods. BUT I think his pack is managed pretty well, considering how unstable most of those dogs were when he got them. I remember one episode where he brought a dog to his center, and even after working with the dog, he didn't feel it was safe to give the dog back to its original owners. So he kept it. That kind of dangerous dog, the kind that no one else could deal with, is what makes up much of his pack.

Im not surprised that a pack full of dogs like that will have fights every now and then. Some of dogs he tries to rehabilitate, and are part of that pack, probably have genetic temperament issues. Like some people, they might have been born with unstable personalities. All the perfect training in the world will not make some dogs absolutely stable. Ever been to a psychiatric hospital? They definately have phsycial confrontations (fights) there. The staff have to "manhandle" people when the situation calls for it. 

I think his methods are keeping dogs alive that would have otherwise been PTS, and the fact that his pack fights every now and then is not evidence that his methods aren't working. Even wolf packs fight with each other sometimes.


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## Good_Karma

I do think that his message of making sure your dog gets lots of exercise and has rules and limitations is very important.

The rest of Cesar, for me, is pure entertainment. I enjoy seeing people who have such difficult dogs because it makes my dogs look like angels.  Also seeing clueless owners makes me feel smarter.


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## AbbyK9

I like the more recent episodes a lot more than the older ones. He seems to be getting a lot less heavy-handed from how he dealt with dogs originally, which is a good thing, especially since a lot of people watch his show once or twice and then use his methods (or what they believe his methods are).

His accent bugs me, too.

What really annoys me is all this crap that is now being marketed with his name on it. There's a ton of it at PetCo and also at the PX, from collapsible bowls to treat containers, to cheap toys, to leashes and collars. There's even a magazine now, "Cesar's Way" that I saw in the magazine rack at my grocery store today. XD Marketing overkill!


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## Syaoransbear

ZebsMommy said:


> I think he's unoriginal and (no offense) the accent irritates me. I much prefer Victoria Stillwell. Alpha rolls are mostly unsuccessful and just compound the issue. I loved the South Park episode where they made fun of him with Cartman.


I actually don't think they made fun of him at all in that episode. It seemed more like they were praising him.

I think there has to be a balance between positive rewards and corrections in dog training. I think it's stupid how many people try pinning their dogs to the ground even after it says that huge message not to try it at home. He's not a dog trainer, he's a behaviorist, and all those people sitting in front of the tv alpha rolling their dogs because it didn't listen to a 'sit' command are doing their dogs a disservice.

I've taken away all I can from cesar millan's methods, so now I just watch to see if he gets bitopcorn:.


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## codmaster

AbbyK9 said:


> I like the more recent episodes a lot more than the older ones. He seems to be getting a lot less heavy-handed from how he dealt with dogs originally, which is a good thing, especially since a lot of people watch his show once or twice and then use his methods (or what they believe his methods are).
> 
> His accent bugs me, too.
> 
> What really annoys me is all this crap that is now being marketed with his name on it. There's a ton of it at PetCo and also at the PX, from collapsible bowls to treat containers, to cheap toys, to leashes and collars. There's even a magazine now, "Cesar's Way" that I saw in the magazine rack at my grocery store today. XD Marketing overkill!


How do you feel about Stillwells accent?


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## codmaster

"
Originally Posted by *ZebsMommy*  
_I think he's unoriginal and (no offense) the accent irritates me. I much prefer Victoria Stillwell. Alpha rolls are mostly unsuccessful and just compound the issue. I loved the South Park episode where they made fun of him with Cartman."_

_AHH! Stillwell - I enjoy watching her show as long as i can think of it as a comedy!_


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## AbbyK9

> How do you feel about Stillwells accent?


What does her accent have to do with anything?


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## codmaster

AbbyK9 said:


> What does her accent have to do with anything?


I don't think it should have nothing to do with anything. But I was just curious, since the other message specifically mentioned Cesar's accent and that the poster didn't like it. Did you get a chance to see that message? Maybe it would help if you did read it and then see what you think?

And what do you think - think it is ok to mention that you didn't like Cesar's accent, but to get a little upset if we mention Stilwell's accent which is just as noticable as Cesars wouldn't you say?

BTW, what do you yourself think of her (and/or his) accent?


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## APBTLove

codmaster said:


> I don't think it should have nothing to do with anything. But I was just curious, since the other message specifically mentioned Cesar's accent and that the poster didn't like it. Did you get a chance to see that message? Maybe it would help if you did read it and then see what you think?
> 
> And what do you think - think it is ok to mention that you didn't like Cesar's accent, but to get a little upset if we mention Stilwell's accent which is just as noticable as Cesars wouldn't you say?
> 
> BTW, what do you yourself think of her (and/or his) accent?


I think they meant it can be hard to understand... He uses odd phrases sometimes, too.


Here, two Bully type dogs.. His pack dog was also posturing and not backing down. You can see in the background how all of his dogs have a free-for-all while these two get in their little scrap. And his workers are just ripping them apart, dragging dogs around by their back legs while they hold onto others.. blech just a mess. 
Dog Whisperer: Dueling Pit Bulls - Dog Whisperer - CastRoller

EDIT
The video is loading verrrry slow for me for some reason..

Here, this is bad quality.. But it shows it...


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## Raising Roman

I've also voted "He's ok" 

I used to absolutely love him & I was addicted to his shows and have read so many of his books. But, this was when I only had my wonderfully already trained & well manned Shih-Tzu. So I did find some of his methods great to tweak some of Bear's little bad habits & that was great. However, like some of you have said what he does can't be taught that easily, if at all. I've tried so many of his methods with Roman & they just don't work. I think Cesar is the reason I was putting so much pressure on myself & on Roman to be 'pefect' because he made it look so effortless. So I've gone off him a bit (Cesar, not Roman!)


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## Denali Girl

I see what's going on here............your saying Cesar is an Illegal and you want him out of Arizona!!!!! Kidding, kidding


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## codmaster

APBTLove said:


> I think they meant it can be hard to understand... He uses odd phrases sometimes, too.
> .............................


You think that is what she meant when she said that "she didn't like his accent"?


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## Lilie

My concern with him is that too many people attempt to utilize his techniques when they have never stepped in front of an actual trainer. To me it's like attempting to use a gun with out ever going to the range. 

I watched an episode of 'Bones' the other night and he was a guest star. Long story short he walked in to a barn full of dogs that were utilized for fighting. The dogs were all barking and lunging and all he did was 'psssst' and they were all quiet and laid down. Other things happened with him during this episode and it made him out to be some sort of super hero.


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## PaddyD

Good_Karma said:


> I do think that his message of making sure your dog gets lots of exercise and has rules and limitations is very important.
> 
> The rest of Cesar, for me, is pure entertainment. I enjoy seeing people who have such difficult dogs because it makes my dogs look like angels.  Also seeing clueless owners makes me feel smarter.


What she said.


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> Wonder how many of the folks who don't like or don't agree with his methods are advocates of "Positive only" approach to dog training? That belief would certainly be a big reason not to like Cesar's approach since he does believe in using corrections for a dog.


I put he's okay and my dogs are trained using 99.99% positive training. 

I'd like to see him train a dog without issues so I could see if he trains all dogs this way, or just the tough ones. That would make a difference to me. The point being, I don't think compulsion should be a trainer's first option.


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## AbbyK9

> You think that is what she meant when she said that "she didn't like his accent"?


Well, I don't know what the other poster meant when she commented on his accent, but if you're trying to make my comment about his accent about something racist, you're barking up the wrong tree. I just find him difficult to understand.


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## Klamari

AbbyK9 said:


> Well, I don't know what the other poster meant when she commented on his accent, but if you're trying to make my comment about his accent about something racist, you're barking up the wrong tree. I just find him difficult to understand.


That accent lets me know I'm home So I actually like it sometimes. At least he's speaking english....


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## Montana Scout

i have the show on DVR but i literally have no time to watch it... 90% of the time im with my pup... and i don't even work


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## Syaoransbear

APBTLove said:


> I think they meant it can be hard to understand... He uses odd phrases sometimes, too.
> 
> 
> Here, two Bully type dogs.. His pack dog was also posturing and not backing down. You can see in the background how all of his dogs have a free-for-all while these two get in their little scrap. And his workers are just ripping them apart, dragging dogs around by their back legs while they hold onto others.. blech just a mess.
> Dog Whisperer: Dueling Pit Bulls - Dog Whisperer - CastRoller
> 
> EDIT
> The video is loading verrrry slow for me for some reason..
> 
> Here, this is bad quality.. But it shows it...
> YouTube - Pitbulls Fighting


But Cesar millan was not even attempting to control his pack, he was focused only on stopping that couple's dog so that's not really a good representation of his control over the pack. His dogs are also not obedience trained, he wouldn't be able to say, "Stay" and have them all stop. I'm also pretty sure that alpha-dogs do not really care when two subordinate dogs have a scuffle between each other.



Whiteshepherds said:


> I put he's okay and my dogs are trained using 99.99% positive training.
> 
> I'd like to see him train a dog without issues so I could see if he trains all dogs this way, or just the tough ones. That would make a difference to me. The point being, I don't think compulsion should be a trainer's first option.


But Cesar Millan is not a dog trainer. He only deals with behavioral problems, so I don't think he has any experience teaching dogs to obey commands.


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## Ucdcrush

Emoore said:


> He amuses me. The only thing that amuses me more is when people with about 5 minutes of actual dog experience try to mimic his methods. Every time I hear "Ssssst!" in Petsmart I just roll my eyes.


Sounds haughty. Those people are at least taking their dogs into the store (something to celebrate, IMO), risking the possibility that their dogs won't behave in public, which is more than lots of people do. They are doing the best they can, so what if they don't have 5 minutes of dog training experience.


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## Ucdcrush

Syaoransbear said:


> Cesar Millan is not a dog trainer. He only deals with behavioral problems, so I don't think he has any experience teaching dogs to obey commands.


Well he does have SOME, of course, but that is not the point of his show. He is brought in to handle behavioral problems, not to train obedience.

He came out with a book on training recently, where he gets opinions of various animal trainers including Ian Dunbar, and of course adds his own opinion also. As you said most of his dogs are not trained, they do know kissy noise means come here and tssst means "stop that".

Despite that lack of obedience training, he has control over them. I'm sure we can all think of examples of dogs where the owners spent little if any time doing obedience training, yet the dogs "minded" very well whch (IMO) has to do with pack leadership. That seems to be what's important to him with his group of dogs.


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## Ucdcrush

Klamari said:


> Now, I'm not saying I agree with all his methods. BUT I think his pack is managed pretty well, considering how unstable most of those dogs were when he got them. I remember one episode where he brought a dog to his center, and even after working with the dog, he didn't feel it was safe to give the dog back to its original owners. So he kept it. That kind of dangerous dog, the kind that no one else could deal with, is what makes up much of his pack.
> 
> Im not surprised that a pack full of dogs like that will have fights every now and then. Some of dogs he tries to rehabilitate, and are part of that pack, probably have genetic temperament issues. Like some people, they might have been born with unstable personalities. All the perfect training in the world will not make some dogs absolutely stable. Ever been to a psychiatric hospital? They definately have phsycial confrontations (fights) there. The staff have to "manhandle" people when the situation calls for it.
> 
> I think his methods are keeping dogs alive that would have otherwise been PTS, and the fact that his pack fights every now and then is not evidence that his methods aren't working. Even wolf packs fight with each other sometimes.


Thank you for posting that, you hit the nail on the head. Additionally, the breeds he has are high energy, dominant types. Cesar can't be everywhere at once, paying attention to all of their interactions all the time, so of course there will be fights sometimes. Even if he could be everywhere at once, he is still human and can still make a mistake, so there could be a fight then too. That is hardly surprising given the makeup of his pack, and the sheer number.


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## Chicagocanine

I don't hate him, I've never met the guy and have no problem with him personally. However, I don't care for his methods and his inaccurate descriptions of dog and wolf behavior.


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## selzer

I really agree with the idea of being calm and assertive with dogs, though others have said this before him, but I think he was the first to really marry the words. 

And I agree that he has a lot of energy and using his posture he presents a presence that pretty much relays to dogs that he is in control of the situation. 

When you are working with the dog people who if their problems were people-related would belong on Jerry Springer, you will have dogs that are out of control. Cesar can come in and TRAIN the people to master themselves. 

Maybe those dogs of his are not so much miscreants, but had really poor leadership, and he realizes that this one CAN'T go back to those Hopeless people, so he keeps the dog.

Maybe the dogs he is keeping as a pack are not REALLY such tough customers, maybe he chooses to keep dogs that are mostly fear aggressive and reactive in their previous homes because of their clueless owners. 

I would not know. 

I do like Victoria Stillwell. She also has dog people who would belong on Jerry Springer. She also has a lot of progress with dogs that are clearly out of control. And she generally does it without manhandling the dogs. Also, she comes in, assesses and takes time to assess the situation. Then she makes suggestions and walks them through these, goes away for a couple of WEEKS, then comes back and adjusts. If something is not working with this dog or these people, she suggests something else, as any decent trainer should do.

Cesar, on the other hand seems to have a limited toolbox. I do not buy into the dominance poop at all. I think that effective leadership is essential. I do not think effective leaders are irratic or wishy washy. Effective leaders tend to be calm and assertive. Effective leadership instills confidence in dogs as it builds trust between dog and handler. Anything that resembles bullying only instills fear. Some dogs will respond to fear of the handler, and appear better behaved.

People used to lift a dog up on a choke chain and choke them until they passed out. No doubt this worked with some dogs too. I think we can all agree that this is not an acceptable way to manage, train, deal with a dog.


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## codmaster

Interesting discussion!

Maybe one day there will be a new TV reality show where both Cesar and Victoria will get a chance to address aggressive or out of control dogs and we can actually compare the results!

Would be more interesting than what is often on TV today.


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## Cassidy's Mom

What annoys me about these discussions about Cesar is the ubiquitous "he's a behaviorist, not a trainer", comments, as if the two were mutually exclusive. Yes, it's possible to have a well trained dog (in terms of knowing lots of commands), who is not always well behaved, and it's also possible to have a well behaved dog who is not that well trained (again, in terms of knowing lots of commands), but dog training is about more than just teaching OB commands such as sit, down, come, and heel. Many, many behavior problems would have been prevented, and can be solved, with proper _training_. 

As I've said before I've only watched a handful of Dog Whisperer episodes (and I did read his first book), but I'd love to see a greater focus on the show about how people created the behavior problems in the first place and what kind of training would have prevented it from getting to that point. Maybe he is doing more of that now than he did in the few shows I saw, I can't really say. But I will say that that is one thing that Victoria DOES do, she makes it very clear how the people screwed up, and how the right kind of training can improve the dog's behavior. 

And I hope he's relying less than he used to on outdated and incorrect notions of dominance. Not everything is about dominance! :headbang: Sometimes the dogs are confused, sometimes the dogs are afraid, they not always trying to defy you and be top dog. A dog that pulls on leash might be doing it because they were not properly taught how to walk nicely (training!), a dog that jumps on people might be doing it because the owner never taught the dog what it should be doing when it meets people (training!), maybe the dog won't lie down on cue because the command hasn't been generalized to enough different circumstances (training!), the dog might not want to walk on slippery floors because it's never been exposed to them and is afraid - how about showing the dog there is nothing to fear, by counterconditioning?


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## Cassidy's Mom

Further thoughts.....

We're working with a great trainer right now, (no, she's not a "behaviorist", although I guess she could call herself one if she wanted to, like Cesar does - she understands dog behavior better than he does, and has the training backround to prove it), and any time we talk about some behavior we want to work on, the first thing she asks is "what would you like them to do instead?" If we're not sure, she'll make some suggestions and we discuss our options. And then whatever we decide, we work with her to _train that_.


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## trish07

We did try his methods with Phenix at first and the result was a total desaster. Maybe we did not applied his methods correctly, but I do think there is different methods for different types of dog.

After trying Cesar's methods, we went see a behaviorist (clicker and positive reinforcement method) and she explained us how Cesar's methods had affected our dog. 

The thouch, the Psssttt has made Phenix more anxious. We were practicing too much discipline and not enough fun activities with him and Phenix felt like we were not "important" ou should I say "fun" to him. His toys were fun and he was playing alone because we weren't.....I agree that you need discipline before play if the dog is unbalanced or superexcited...but if you do only discipline than you become unfun for your dog....he do not share any good moments with you. Discipline, discipline, discipline is not "fun" for a dog and we all know how much a dog love to play! There is so much more other methods to discipline your dog than by giving him consequences for bad behaviors.

You can discipline your dog by playing, much more fun for you and him! This is my personnal opinion 'cause it works in our case. We totally changed our mind and so Phenix did.


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## codmaster

Cesar does talk a lot about "energy" (body language and unseen signals to the dog) and also about pack leader and "dominance" but at least he isn't basing his explanation of a dogs behavior on "fear".

Many trainers and others seem to do this and attempt to explain that all or at least most of it is due to the dog being afraid or anxious.

We had one trainer that I used for a while actually tell me that my dog (male GSD) was sniffing while he was on a down stay because he was afraid/anxious so I should reassure him that everything was ok! I was more of the opinion that he was sniffing because there was something interesting to his nose on the mats of the training building that we were in or maybe that he needed to pee.


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## codmaster

trish07 said:


> We did try his methods with Phenix at first and the result was a total desaster. Maybe we did not applied his methods correctly, but I do think there is different methods for different types of dog.
> 
> After trying Cesar's methods, we went see a behaviorist (clicker and positive reinforcement method) and she explained us how Cesar's methods had affected our dog.
> 
> The thouch, the Psssttt has made Phenix more anxious. We were practicing too much discipline and not enough fun activities with him and Phenix felt like we were not "important" ou should I say "fun" to him. His toys were fun and he was playing alone because we weren't.....I agree that you need discipline before play if the dog is unbalanced or superexcited...but if you do only discipline than you become unfun for your dog....he do not share any good moments with you. Discipline, discipline, discipline is not "fun" for a dog and we all know how much a dog love to play! There is so much more other methods to discipline your dog than by giving him consequences for bad behaviors.
> 
> You can discipline your dog by playing, much more fun for you and him! This is my personnal opinion 'cause it works in our case. We totally changed our mind and so Phenix did.


Did you forget that Cesar also mentions "Affection"? 

Remember -- "Exercise, discipline, and *affection"* 

"Discipline" is only one of his three principles.

Could be that he meant "playing" with him also, do you think? So it sounds like maybe you did apply his approach inaccurately.


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## CindyM

I really like Cesar! I think he's saved so many dogs, and he's a great spokesperson against puppy mills. He's also SUPER entertaining. I did get to go to a live show of his last year for my birthday, and it was great! I've read one of his books and watched a few dozens (if not more of his shows), but I don't watch regularly.

I don't like to see a dog get choked, and I'd never do that whole choking thing to either of my dogs. Just because I like him, doesn't mean I agree with everything he does. I am 100% in favor of positive reinforcement, and i have a positive trainer that is just a miracle worker. I also don't really pay attention when he starts talking about all of the alpha stuff. And, I, too hate when people who have no idea what's going on try to mimic him! UG! I don't think most people can do what he can do.

But I have learned a lot from him. I think he does concentrate a lot on the humans. I agree with him that too many people feel sorry for their dogs, and that is a very negative energy. I believe that negative energy hurts everyone... humans and animals. I love how he says to live in the moment. I love how he exercises the dogs, and emphasizes being calm, and isn't really afraid to tell people what he's really thinking. 


HOWEVER i have learned so


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## BestK9GSD

Stevenzachsmom said:


> *I LOVE him and I don't care who knows it. HA!* He really does take on the hopeless cases. He is the last resort for many dogs. I still remember the episode with the shelter rottweiler - very people aggressive, had a bite history, etc. He was to be PTS, unless he was given a chance to be on the show. That was one scary dog. I would not have approached him.
> Cesar not only rehabilitated the dog, but the dog now belongs to his son. I was amazed.
> 
> And most of all - I wish I had one ounce of Cesar's calm, serene, relaxed nature. My blood pressure would be so low. No. You can't teach that. Sure wish ya could.


My sentiments exactly!!


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## trish07

codmaster said:


> Did you forget that Cesar also mentions "Affection"?
> 
> Remember -- "Exercise, discipline, and *affection"*
> 
> "Discipline" is only one of his three principles.
> 
> Could be that he meant "playing" with him also, do you think? So it sounds like maybe you did apply his approach inaccurately.


As I said, maybe we did not use all his methods correctly, but for sure, some of his methods didn't work on our dog.

The "Pssttt" and the "touch" incredibly increased Phenix's anxiety. The moment we stopped using this method, Phenix became calmer and more relaxed during walks. He stopped looking around as if a misfortune would fall on him.

The biggest problem with Phenix was the dogs. After he got attack, it was very difficult to restore Phenix confidence towards other dogs. Thus, following the methods of Cesar, whenever we met a dog in the street and Phenix responded, we said "Psttt" and tapped on his butt. This method has only aggravated things because every time he saw a dog, he reacted even worse than the time before, knowing well that he would be reprimanded. He hated dogs more and more, became increasingly aggressive, even towards humans.

I do not say that Cesar does not play with his dogs and I think he has an incredible talent with dogs too. What I am saying is that its methodes do not necessarily work on all types of dog. Recently, I saw an episode where he worked with two anxious and fearful German shepherds. He told himself that with this type of dog, he could not use the usual touch or "Psttt" method because this will only aggravate the anxiety state of the dogs. I saw a few episodes where he was using positive reinforcement methods and treats!! If you go back a few years before, he wasn't using this....

I vote "He's OK", because like many other trainers, he need to evoluate. One method will work on one dog and will not on the other one.

What I know is that our new "funny" attitude "let's go play to learn" works perfectly with our dog. And I said, PERFECTLY. 

Phenix still have bad behaviors like every other dogs. But, instead of only reprimand him, we distract him from what he do bad and we ask him to do it right. This is right = you got something you like. This is bad, we ignore and we ask you to do it right, which means you are going to have something fun. reppremanding Phenix only accentuate his anxiety, there is dogs with serious anxiety issues, and Phenix is one of them.

From what I see, Cesar disciplines and only when the dog surrender, than he play. What I say is when my dog acts bad, I ask him to do it right on the moment. Phenix knows when he did something bad. I don't have to Pstttt him or to touch him. I look at him and if he did something wrong (like chewing one of my shoes) he instantly go into his cage without asking him, (no kidding!!) and will stay until I say "Ok", than he wants to please me so much than I can teach him whatever I want lol!

I don't know if I'm clear....lol


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## PaddyD

Some people use psssst, some just look, which ever works for you and your dog. The point is: you got his/her attention and you interrupted whatever mistake was in progress. Sometimes Cesar just puts his hand up and that is all it takes to redirect.


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## Ace952

This thread shows that *the only thing 2 dog trainers agree on is what the 3rd trainer is doing wrong.*
Every trainer feels like they know the best way to train a dog. If there one clear cut best way then everyone would be using it, obviously that isn't the case.

Take what you can from any traienr and if it works for you then great! If it doesn't leave it behind.

Some people think prong, e-collars and choke collars are wrong and never should be used . THey maybe blasted by some traienrs for using them. Others think they are a great tool.

I think any trainer on this board if they had a tv show would have their fare share of poeple saying that they don't know anything and critisizing their methods.

Matter of fact it would be nice to see people on there show their training methods via youtube.


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## PaddyD

Ace952 said:


> This thread shows that *the only thing 2 dog trainers agree on is what the 3rd trainer is doing wrong.*
> Every trainer feels like they know the best way to train a dog. If there one clear cut best way then everyone would be using it, obviously that isn't the case.
> 
> Take what you can from any traienr and if it works for you then great! If it doesn't leave it behind.
> 
> Some people think prong, e-collars and choke collars are wrong and never should be used . THey maybe blasted by some traienrs for using them. Others think they are a great tool.
> 
> I think any trainer on this board if they had a tv show would have their fare share of poeple saying that they don't know anything and critisizing their methods.
> 
> Matter of fact it would be nice to see people on there show their training methods via youtube.


If they dare. :laugh:


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## onyx'girl

I wish Michael Ellis would have a weekly "show"


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## Klamari

onyx'girl said:


> I wish Michael Ellis would have a weekly "show"


ME TOO!! a free weekly show. But then someone else would start the same poll about him, because you can't please everybody. Thats life though.


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## GROVEBEAUTY

I have watched the Dog Whisperer and read two of his books and I agree with the people on this board who have said take what works and let the rest go. I personally don't believe what he practices wouldn't work for my five GSD's. I tried some of it and it compounded the problem, whereas other parts of the training worked. I agree that exercise is a key to having a dog behave. I have seen a lot of dogs that would not have half the issues if they were exercised even a little. I have also watched It's Me Or The Dog and I believe that she gives too many treats. I think treats just condition the dog to expect the treats when they can be taught through repetition. I'm not saying that treats are all bad but too much is too much. Every dog is different and takes a different method. Like I say, IMHO, I take what works and leave what doesn't.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GROVEBEAUTY said:


> *I think treats just condition the dog to expect the treats* when they can be taught through repetition.


NO - not if used correctly!!!! :headbang:


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## codmaster

That is the real problem with ANY method of training - it can be used wrong. Whether it is cesar's approach or treats or positive only - any of them can be misapplied and then will not be successful!


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## Olivers mama

Our dog is horribly stubborn (like her owners) - her biggest problem is her high IQ, IMO.

In the few months we've had her, we worked with 2 trainers: 1 used traditional choker & she worked well - within the confines of the tennis court. Problem is, we don't have a tennis court at home. He also used treats. The 2nd one used a prong collar (too roughly, IMO) & no treats.

I'm not a fan of The Dog Whisperer - more his attitude than his actual training - he's a bit too pompous. Victoria Stilwell uses a LOT of treats, but only at the beginning. Remember, she's not teaching obedience as much as she has to re-train bad habits. We've learned a lot from her. 4 months ago, we used treats for every single thing we asked of the dog. And we're gradually fazing some of them out. I no longer treat when I want her to 'Wait' - don't even use the word any more, as a simple look will get it done. Same with her 'Sit'.

Whatever works is fine with me - EXCEPT the 1 trainer who used the prong too harshly...that woman deserved to be smacked. I like treats. I like repetition. For some things, I've taken it further - like when she jumps up on me & I use a knee to keep her from getting closer - 1 swollen cheek & black eye (mine - not hers) was enough.

IMO only.


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## Ucdcrush

Cassidy's Mom said:


> As I've said before I've only watched a handful of Dog Whisperer episodes (and I did read his first book), but I'd love to see a greater focus on the show about how people created the behavior problems in the first place and what kind of training would have prevented it from getting to that point. Maybe he is doing more of that now than he did in the few shows I saw, I can't really say. But I will say that that is one thing that Victoria DOES do, she makes it very clear how the people screwed up, and how the right kind of training can improve the dog's behavior.


I think he does that (pointing out why the dog is behaving a certain way) in every case but he does not delve into the history. He makes the point that a dog's history is something we humans tend to think about more than the dog ever does. So he works with the dogs in the moment, and he doesn't even know what the issue is when he arrives. He says (and I think we know) dogs live in the moment, so he can go in and see why a dog is misbehaving _in that moment_ and help to correct the situation.

That is why you can see such rapid changes in the dogs' behavior on that show (yes, I know there is TV editing) in the majority of cases.. the history doesn't matter as much as the present. And keeping things correct in the present will ensure the future unfolds smoothly.


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## Ucdcrush

CindyM said:


> I don't like to see a dog get choked, and I'd never do that whole choking thing to either of my dogs. Just because I like him, doesn't mean I agree with everything he does. I am 100% in favor of positive reinforcement, and i have a positive trainer that is just a miracle worker. I also don't really pay attention when he starts talking about all of the alpha stuff. And, I, too hate when people who have no idea what's going on try to mimic him! UG! I don't think most people can do what he can do.


I agree with most of your post, though this paragraph makes it sound like choking is his method of choice. I have only rarely seen him use a leash to hold a dog up (what one could call choking, even though without context it sounds terrible), and that was when the dog was trying to eat him. He more commonly uses touches and leash pops.


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## Ucdcrush

trish07 said:


> As I said, maybe we did not use all his methods correctly, but for sure, some of his methods didn't work on our dog.l


The touching and psst is only a part of his method. The main parts of his method are exercise, discipline (rules boundaries limitations) and affection. 

I personally think that the discipline part is huge, but actual physical corrections are rarely needed. Discipline is the whole NILIF (nothing in life is free) thing, which many people advocate. Telling the dog stay in one place when he'd rather go somewhere else, leave an area he wants to be in, and not enter an area that I've not invited him in to, I think are key. Respecting space is huge, and although I can practice discipline in this way (telling the dog to leave the room, stay here for awhile, etc.), in the next minute I can call the dog over to me and play with him. That is all seen by the dog as behavior of a leader, and importantly, it creates an environment and lifestyle of obedience.

So without setting up rules for a dog, and enforcing them, practicing them etc., all the pssts in the world are unlikely to make any sudden change. But when the dog has spent a few weeks waiting, moving away from you (see "yielding"), coming when called to get affection, the respect -for lack of a better term - increases, and getting the dog to do what you want becomes easier (nothing is ever perfect of course, but it does get easier).

One other thing I've noticed is that when someone is working with a dog who is not theirs, there is little if any "emotion" connected to the dog's story or the dog's behavior, or even perhaps the outcome. When a person is dealing with their own dog, as a human they are more likely to take the bad behavior personally (think of your friend calling you a jerk as opposed to a stranger calling you a jerk) and be more worried about the outcome. This makes any training harder to do, particularly when you are trying to emulate the dog whisperer, who is a very special individual and we always see things working for him.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Ucdcrush said:


> The touching and psst is only a part of his method. The main parts of his method are exercise, discipline (rules boundaries limitations) and affection.
> 
> I personally think that the discipline part is huge, but actual physical corrections are rarely needed. Discipline is the whole NILIF (nothing in life is free) thing, which many people advocate. Telling the dog stay in one place when he'd rather go somewhere else, leave an area he wants to be in, and not enter an area that I've not invited him in to, I think are key. Respecting space is huge, and although I can practice discipline in this way (telling the dog to leave the room, stay here for awhile, etc.), in the next minute I can call the dog over to me and play with him. That is all seen by the dog as behavior of a leader, and importantly, it creates an environment and lifestyle of obedience.


But see, I was doing all that stuff _years_ before I'd ever heard of Cesar Milan, long before he got a TV show or wrote a book. Well, except for the "psst" thing.  He didn't invent any of it and I'm not quite sure why he gets so much credit for it with the general public. :thinking:


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## Dejavu

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But see, I was doing all that stuff _years_ before I'd ever heard of Cesar Milan, long before he got a TV show or wrote a book. Well, except for the "psst" thing.  He didn't invent any of it and I'm not quite sure why he gets so much credit for it with the general public. :thinking:


Probably because thanks to his show people that have never ever heard or thought of training their dogs now know about it. 
I think that's one of the good things about him and his show.


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## Syaoransbear

Ucdcrush said:


> I think he does that (pointing out why the dog is behaving a certain way) in every case but he does not delve into the history. He makes the point that a dog's history is something we humans tend to think about more than the dog ever does. So he works with the dogs in the moment, and he doesn't even know what the issue is when he arrives. He says (and I think we know) dogs live in the moment, so he can go in and see why a dog is misbehaving _in that moment_ and help to correct the situation.
> 
> That is why you can see such rapid changes in the dogs' behavior on that show (yes, I know there is TV editing) in the majority of cases.. the history doesn't matter as much as the present. And keeping things correct in the present will ensure the future unfolds smoothly.


I used to believe it was just TV editing. My mom took me to one of his seminars and he used local dogs, and the results were immediate just like in the show. I was surprised.


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## selzer

I have been to dog trainers, training classes. Where the owner was having a heck of a time managing their pooch. The instructor stepped in, took the leash, and like magic, the dog responded and did what the instructor wanted, no funny business.

I had it happen to me once. The instructor was doing an exercise at the door with someone, and her dog that was across the room had stood up. There were a line of us so she did not have a direct line to her dog. There were two dogs beyond me prior to her dog, but she said, Sue, Down my dog. With my voice and hand signal, I said, "LOLA, DOWN!" I meant to say it in a no-nonsense way and out did myself. Lola went down. So did my dog, and both of the dogs that were between Lola and me. (And, one of those dogs always gave its owner trouble when she tried to down him.)


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## Klamari

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But see, I was doing all that stuff _years_ before I'd ever heard of Cesar Milan, long before he got a TV show or wrote a book. Well, except for the "psst" thing.  He didn't invent any of it and I'm not quite sure why he gets so much credit for it with the general public. :thinking:


He gets credit with the general public because A LOT of people watch his show. He has a TV show, he is in their faces, with ideas and methods that may not be new to experienced dog people, but it is new to them. And they watch him, every week, getting results. Years ago, if you had the opportunity, the inclination, and the charisma that he has, people would be crediting you with these ideas. And people on boards like this would be saying the same thing you are 

The "general public" that credit him with inventing these methods are just that: the average jo who has probably never had contact with a professional trainer before, but does watch TV like most people do. Of course they're going to think he's a genius.

Also, many more people have seen him using those methods, rather than you (or any other trainer). More people = bigger voice = ignorant general public perception.


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## Whiteshepherds

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But see, I was doing all that stuff _years_ before I'd ever heard of Cesar Milan, long before he got a TV show or wrote a book. Well, except for the "psst" thing.  He didn't invent any of it and I'm not quite sure why he gets so much credit for it with the general public. :thinking:


Because he was smart enough to capitalize on an opportunity when it presented itself...and then learned how to market himself. Self made millionaire I think they call it.


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## Klamari

Whiteshepherds said:


> Because he was smart enough to capitalize on an opportunity when it presented itself...and then learned how to market himself. Self made millionaire I think they call it.


So true. And, really, would anyone here pass up putting your face on a dog toy package if it could make you big $$$?? I dont think so. Are people buying those toys with his face on it? Of course! Sounds like a pretty smart guy to me.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Klamari said:


> He gets credit with the general public because A LOT of people watch his show. He has a TV show, he is in their faces, with ideas and methods that may not be new to experienced dog people, but it is new to them. And they watch him, every week, getting results. Years ago, if you had the opportunity, the inclination, and the charisma that he has, people would be crediting you with these ideas. And people on boards like this would be saying the same thing you are
> 
> The "general public" that credit him with inventing these methods are just that: the average jo who has probably never had contact with a professional trainer before, but does watch TV like most people do. Of course they're going to think he's a genius.
> 
> Also, many more people have seen him using those methods, rather than you (or any other trainer). More people = bigger voice = ignorant general public perception.


I think you're missing my point. I'm not a dog trainer, I'm just a pet owner. I'm not jealous of his success, I don't want fame and notoriety, nor do I deserve it - they were not my ideas either. I learned how to train my own dogs from a variety of places - at a number of training classes with different instructors at different facilities, through numerous books written by a bunch of other trainers, seminars, workshops, articles and videos online.... 

My first GSD as an adult was in 1986, but my real education in dog training started when we got Cassidy 10 years ago. My point is that these methods that everybody loves Cesar for were not only NOT his idea, they were around, widely known, and used by many many trainers long before anyone knew who he was. Yes, _now _people are aware that dogs need to be trained, that they need attention, and a certain amount of exercise (vs being a lawn ornament), and I do give him credit for bringing this awareness to the general public. But no - there is nothing revolutionary about the training methods he uses. Or the "behaviorist" methods he uses. Or whatever. :shrug: There are a lot of trainers that I respect and revere, but he's not one of them.


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## Syaoransbear

I really don't think anyone is giving Cesar credit for _inventing_ those methods and no one is calling them new or revolutionary since they are only common sense, he's just getting credit for popularizing them.


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## Ucdcrush

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But no - there is nothing revolutionary about the training methods he uses. Or the "behaviorist" methods he uses. Or whatever. :shrug: There are a lot of trainers that I respect and revere, but he's not one of them.


Re your last sentence.. not that CM needs any individuals' respect, but what would it take for you to respect a person as a dog trainer/behaviorist? CM has a long history of helping the toughest cases of dogs, and has taken many of them in to keep them alive, and he does it with great success. His show has popularized dog training/behavior like never before. If the ideas of exercise and boundaries make it in to a handful of homes, those dogs will be lead happier lives.

Any trainer/behaviorist who helps dogs gets my admiration and respect. That is what it's all about. Not about their accent, their attitude, how much money they make, or whether they brought well-known (to the dog training community) dog behavior tips to the populous (I can see _nothing_ wrong with that at all).


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## PaddyD

Syaoransbear said:


> I really don't think anyone is giving Cesar credit for _inventing_ those methods and no one is calling them new or revolutionary since they are only common sense, he's just getting credit for popularizing them.


Just like no one is giving credit to Jane Fonda for inventing exercise. She just added to its popularity and possibly more people (re: Cesar) are aware of some concepts they would not have otherwise known. Keeping in mind how few people read these days. Anyone who has done extensive research, reading and observing several 'experts' obviously has a broader base of knowledge to work from.


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## Ace952

Ucdcrush said:


> Re your last sentence.. not that CM needs any individuals' respect, but what would it take for you to respect a person as a dog trainer/behaviorist? CM has a long history of helping the toughest cases of dogs, and has taken many of them in to keep them alive, and he does it with great success. His show has popularized dog training/behavior like never before. If the ideas of exercise and boundaries make it in to a handful of homes, those dogs will be lead happier lives.
> 
> Any trainer/behaviorist who helps dogs gets my admiration and respect. That is what it's all about. Not about their accent, their attitude, how much money they make, or whether they brought well-known (to the dog training community) dog behavior tips to the populous (I can see _nothing_ wrong with that at all).


:thumbup: Well said!


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## Ace952

The one thing I hate is when people criticize those on tv who put themselves out there. Of course they will be sibject to people agreeing and disagreeing with them, that comes with the territory.

When people say they don't respect or they are horrible at what they are doing then I say put up or shut up.

Again this is for Caesar and anyone one else (athletes, actors/actresse, etc.). 

Do youtube videos of dog training with dogs you don't know that are hard cases and do it for FREE. Then put it on youtube for all to see. Show & tell.


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## trish07

Ucdcrush said:


> The touching and psst is only a part of his method. The main parts of his method are exercise, discipline (rules boundaries limitations) and affection.
> 
> I personally think that the discipline part is huge, but actual physical corrections are rarely needed. Discipline is the whole NILIF (nothing in life is free) thing, which many people advocate. Telling the dog stay in one place when he'd rather go somewhere else, leave an area he wants to be in, and not enter an area that I've not invited him in to, I think are key. Respecting space is huge, and although I can practice discipline in this way (telling the dog to leave the room, stay here for awhile, etc.), in the next minute I can call the dog over to me and play with him. That is all seen by the dog as behavior of a leader, and importantly, it creates an environment and lifestyle of obedience.
> 
> So without setting up rules for a dog, and enforcing them, practicing them etc., all the pssts in the world are unlikely to make any sudden change. But when the dog has spent a few weeks waiting, moving away from you (see "yielding"), coming when called to get affection, the respect -for lack of a better term - increases, and getting the dog to do what you want becomes easier (nothing is ever perfect of course, but it does get easier).
> 
> One other thing I've noticed is that when someone is working with a dog who is not theirs, there is little if any "emotion" connected to the dog's story or the dog's behavior, or even perhaps the outcome. When a person is dealing with their own dog, as a human they are more likely to take the bad behavior personally (think of your friend calling you a jerk as opposed to a stranger calling you a jerk) and be more worried about the outcome. This makes any training harder to do, particularly when you are trying to emulate the dog whisperer, who is a very special individual and we always see things working for him.


Like I said, I think there is different methods for different dogs and situation.

Instead of "Psstt" or to touch Phenix to get his atention, we ask him a command. The "Psstt" or the "touch" to get Phenix's attention, in our case, creates anxiety. On the other hand, when we asked him a sit or a fix to get its attention, he answered much faster and better than by "Psstt" or /touch" him. Where we have erred, and we may misapply the methods, is that we spent too much time to discipline without giving anything in return on the moment. Let me explain: if I want to stop Phoenix barking (as example) before, we would have said "Psstt" or touch him and had increase the bark because Phoenix is nervous and insecure this only increas its insecurity. Now, if Phenix barks and I want him to stop, I wait for the second he stops barking and I reinforce this exact moment by playing or rewarding with treats. Thins we never succeed to show him became easy to teach and only required a few minutes!

For other dogs, it may well work, as seen in its program. I do not think he is a bad trainer, far from there, he has a LOT of talent, but for us his methods were not appropriate.


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## LARHAGE

I love Cesar, have seen a couple of his live shows, have read every book, and had the honor/privelidge to talk with him at a convention, we talked horses and dogs, he is a charismatic, extremely humble man who loves dogs more than anything on this earth, I have utilized a lot of his methods with my multiple pack of dogs, I don't use everything, but like all the horse whisperers I have seen and heard, not all methods work for all horses and situations, but I can agree that despite this, horses and dogs benefit from the popularity of these charismatic individuals bringing the importance of our animals into a place of prominence in our lives.


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## APBTLove

Just two other problems I have with him... His methods are dangerous. Lets take out the harm they do to the dogs completely, people watching this will try it no doubt. When they try to 'alpha roll' their 100lb over-energetic mutt and then freak out because the dogs starts going ballistic it's a really good way to get bit.. ESPECIALLY kids who watch him and try it.

And 2, he rarely molds his techniques for individual dogs.


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## Ace952

APBTLove said:


> Just two other problems I have with him... His methods are dangerous. Lets take out the harm they do to the dogs completely, people watching this will try it no doubt. When they try to 'alpha roll' their 100lb over-energetic mutt and then freak out because the dogs starts going ballistic it's a really good way to get bit.. ESPECIALLY kids who watch him and try it.
> 
> And 2, he rarely molds his techniques for individual dogs.


I think anything can be dangerous if used in the wrong hands. He tells people to consult a professional first. If people do it and of course they will without seeking a professional then it is on them. No way you can blame him. If that is the case then we go into the whole thing of video games and movies influencing kids to hurt and kill people, etc.

Some point you have to take personal responsibility. Any knowledge used can be dangerous if used the wrong way.

You mention that you use prong and e-collars. There are many who consider that dangerous and what not and would find issue with you and your techniques.

Kids watch a lot of stuff and if they do it then they do. Less needs to be put on the person who does the show and more on the parents.


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## sitstay

> And 2, he rarely molds his techniques for individual dogs.


That is hard to say, given that the only exposure to base the opinion on is through the t.v. show. How many dogs are evaluated for potential episodes and deemed unacceptable for his particular methods? 

I have watched a few of his shows, browsed through one of his books and actually met him in person and had the chance to chat (and have the picture to prove it!). I don't agree with everything he does, but I do see the benefit of what he preaches for the majority of dog owners.

I don't think Victoria Stillwell is 100% correct all the time and I believe that her methods can be misused by clueless viewers as well. I had a dog in foster care that was horribly sound sensitive because the surrendering owner used the boat horn to try and correct counter surfing issues. They used the boat horn incorrectly and it caused huge problems, way beyond counter surfing. 

Anybody can misunderstand and/or misuse just about anything. If you are an idiot, even a flat buckle collar and a bag of treats can be dangerous. 
Sheilah


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## crisp

sit said:


> If you are an idiot, even a flat buckle collar and a bag of treats can be dangerous.
> Sheilah


  Can we have this posted on the home page?!?!


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## Olivers mama

sit said:


> Anybody can misunderstand and/or misuse just about anything. If you are an idiot, even a flat buckle collar and a bag of treats can be dangerous.
> Sheilah


:thumbup: I love it!


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## codmaster

Even the positve reinforcement only trainers can be dangerous - suppose one gets a 90lb dominant hoping male GSD used to having a lot of treats every day for behaving - then one day you run out of treats!!!! One really pissed off dog is what you will have! Not to mention a very hungry dog - no telling what could happen esp. if you have little kids in the house!


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## Klamari

sit said:


> Anybody can misunderstand and/or misuse just about anything. If you are an idiot, even a flat buckle collar and a bag of treats can be dangerous.
> Sheilah


Agreed:thumbup:

And like Ace952 said, personal responsibility matters with anything. A stupid person doesn't even have to watch the Dog Whisperer to cause harm to their dogs and themselves. Stupid people do stupid things, and one TV show is not enough of an influence to pass blame from the owner.


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## Syaoransbear

APBTLove said:


> Just two other problems I have with him... His methods are dangerous. Lets take out the harm they do to the dogs completely, people watching this will try it no doubt. When they try to 'alpha roll' their 100lb over-energetic mutt and then freak out because the dogs starts going ballistic it's a really good way to get bit.. ESPECIALLY kids who watch him and try it.
> 
> And 2, he rarely molds his techniques for individual dogs.


I've watched many, many episodes of the dog whisperer and the only times I've seen him alpha-roll a dog was on a youtube clip about him alpha rolling dogs. Alpha-rolling seems to no longer be a part of his methods anymore or they are a very small part, so I don't think people should be focusing on only that part of it.

If a viewer watches some of the dog whisperer episodes and the only method they can take away from the show is to throw their dog on the ground and pin it, then that viewer would probably screw up even the 'nicest' of training methods.


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## Ucdcrush

APBTLove said:


> And 2, he rarely molds his techniques for individual dogs.


How would that be a negative, unless it resulted in failure? He gets results.

And I don't really think it's true either, he seems to be very adaptable IMO. I remember one freaked out little dog that reminded me of Santa's Little Helper from the Simpsons. He needed to get the dog moving so he put on his rollerblades and the dog ended up fearlessly pulling him down the sidewalk. I've also seen him bring a motorcycle in for a dog that liked to bite the mail carrier, and create a whole trailer like a sound studio to help a dog overcome fear of noises. If he was rigid in his method, one would think he would just leash pop or alpha-roll dogs that showed fear or aggression.

For levity:


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## Hoosier Daddy

He's okay. I get a kick out of how he changes his story or party line to match what a dog happens to be doing at the moment. Sort of like a "psychic" does when the subject's response is different than hoped for. ;-)


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## KAKZooKpr

PDXDeutschhund said:


> Watching his show, however, I think a lot of his method is based on his personal connection with dogs. It makes for an interesting show, but it's not something that can easily be taught, and even more difficult to learn. Some people just have a very calm, almost zen-like connection with animals, and I think he's one of them. The way he establishes dominance almost immediately is fascinating, but how do you teach that?
> 
> I've also watched that show, "It's Me or the Dog" with Victoria Stilwell and I think she deals with actual methods and training tools. I found her show to be more useful as a first-time dog owner.


I agree. I think the best approach is to take what works for you & your dog.  

Kristina


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## westallkennel

i have been to one of his seminars and think that some of his stuff does make sense. Like people do more harm then good by not understanding dogs. I often see people reward their dogs by petting and saying things like its ok when their dog is afraid. One gentleman even petted his dog for trying to bite me telling her it was ok I wasn't going to hurt her. And he was there to ask me why his dog bites people. i don't believe Cesars methods will work for just anyone yes dogs can be rehibiliated but not all people can.


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## Toastermom

His heart is in the right place . The line of how "dogs dont want to be Alpha " , doesnt apply to all dogs especially to some strong minded , strong drive dogs .


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## JanaeUlva

*The basics are there*

What I like most about CM is his emphasis on exercising dogs because it is extremely important for so many reasons - dog & owner physical health, mental health, owner dog bond, etc. Like most of us he isn't perfect but his basic philosophy can benefit most dog owners. I see so many owners who have dogs and they do little to nothing with them. These are dogs who will never get to experience life as a dog. Yet these owners feel OK about themselves because the dog lives in the house with them. Like that makes up for the lack of stimulation and the joy of physical exercise. Very sad. And CM makes it very clear that a dog is a dog with canine instincts that need to be fulfilled.

However, it is probably easier for these lazy owners to take away his sssssst technique then getting up off the sofa and hiking and playing with their dog.


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## GregK

codmaster said:


> How do you feel about Stillwells accent?


 
sexy!


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## Cassidy's Mom

JanaeUlva said:


> What I like most about CM is _his emphasis on exercising dogs_ because it is extremely important for so many reasons - dog & owner physical health, mental health, owner dog bond, etc.


:shrug: All decent trainers do that, including Victoria Stillwell. It's nothing new, special, or unique to Cesar.


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## codmaster

GregK said:


> sexy!


 
Heh! Heh!


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## JanaeUlva

Very true Debbie and thus as you say, he is a decent trainer.


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## GSD Fan

I actually love Cesar Millan. He gets the job done.

I don't look at him as a trainer, I look at him as more of a dog psychologist. What he says and the stuff he does makes a lot of sense. Despite the fact that dogs are domesticated, they still do stuff like wolves.


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## krystyne73

wow! There is a lot of criticism on here....
Personally, I take what I want to try and see if it fits each one of my dogs...either from CM, Stillwell, as well as suggestions on this website.
3 out of 4 of my dogs are rescues. Trying to create a training ritual that fits the needs of each dog with their own special issue can be overwhelming for me sometimes. 2 of the dogs I have were scheduled to be PTS.

All I know, if it wasn't for CM show, I would never have been confident enough to teach my dog to run on the treadmill. His show explained how they would panic at first then slowly process the change. It happened how he explained it, and now my dogs use the treadmill several times a week happily, along with crazy outdoor fun. 

So say what you want, but I love anyone that demonstrates there are no real "bad dogs" just bad (poorly trained) owners.


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## Josie/Zeus

My personal experience with Zeus and CM.

Zeus loved the water hose, he'd play for hours but will not get in the water. I used to take him to the lake all the time, he will not get in the water, period. But he loves running around the lake, as long as his feet doesn't touch the water. 

We moved to TX, we have a pool, Zeus would run around the pool deck, will not get in the pool. One evening, I happen to watch CM show where he was showing the owners how to get their dog to get in the pool. I tried it the very next morning, put a collar on him, got him in the pool.


































I sure miss my big Zeusy :wub::wub:
Anyway, that's my success story about CM.


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## Hercules

I HATE that guy, I watched a couple episodes and I think his methods are borderline abusive. I love Victoria Stillwell and the positive reenforcement technique way better. That is the ONLY method that I do/will continue to use on my dogs.


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## misslesleedavis1

I like him, and face it he must be doing it right he is so successful, lol all of us key board warriors may or may not agree...now alot of what he does is NLP based


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## MadLab

> I love Victoria Stillwell and the positive reenforcement technique way better. That is the ONLY method that I do/will continue to use on my dogs.


Here's Victoria Stillwell advising a family to put down a spaniel rather than give to a rescue to be re homed or rehabbing. Pretty absurd point of view for any dog trainer and a long way from positive reinforcement imo.


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## Blitzkrieg1

You cant fix it with positive re enforcement?? That cant be right! I hope she did it herself..cant have any dogs out there that contradict her version of reality. 
I would pay money to see her actually work a serious aggression case..


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## Castlemaid

I watched a few episodes of CM, and found him riveting. Loved his charisma, his confidence, his energy, his humour. I didn't agree with much of what he was doing, but it was working for him, and I watched the shows as entertainment. I just saw him as a TV personality until . . . 

A friend from work adopted a Rottie pup. Actually, her husband got a five month old pup, without her consent. He had been talking about getting a dog, a Rottweiler, for a while now, and she was not on board, but now that they had one, she was committed to doing her best with him. 

The dog was five months old, and high energy. They were the pup's third home. The puppy was a lot of untrained energy that had never had any boundaries and consistency - and my friend being a CM fan, talked nothing but of the pup 'challenging' them, wanting to be alpha, and her efforts to 'make him submit'. I listened to her stories and tried to give her direction and support and advice, and explain to her that this is a pup has no intention of taking over and 'turning on them' - one of her fears. What this pup needs is patience, positive interaction, confidence building, love and consistency. 

Fortunately she listened to my advice, and was grateful for it, because she knew my dogs, and she said her goal was to have her dog as well-behaved as mine (and I think mine are a bit wild - but I like it that way). 

As she kept on talking about 'making the dog submit', I decided that CM was not 'just' a TV personality, but is actually dangerous as too many people throw common sense aside and follow his philosophies word-for-word, even when the situation does not call for it.


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## selzer

MadLab said:


> Here's Victoria Stillwell advising a family to put down a spaniel rather than give to a rescue to be re homed or rehabbing. Pretty absurd point of view for any dog trainer and a long way from positive reinforcement imo.
> 
> Benjy's the Dog that Victoria Stillwell Killed... by Phone. - YouTube



Did you see that the kid was bit in four separate places. Requiring medical care? If that was a GSD people would put it down. That much worse that it _was _a spaniel. Spaniels were not bred for their aggression, guarding, protection traits. 

Why rehome such a dog? What the world does not need is a dog that bites multiple children. If you have a dog that bites a kid, and you try to work with it, manage it, train it, give it a life, and it bites another child, well, how many children should 1 dog bite before you set it free from its demons? I think that VS was right there, at least from the clip that we saw. 

With all the dogs everywhere being put down just because there isn't space in shelters, why keep a child-biting repeat offender around? 

Do you really think CM does not have fails? He shows what he wants to show you. He shows his successes. His failures sometimes go and live with him. But does he really keep them all? Or does he put some of them down? Do we know? 

I don't think they will advertise it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Actually he lists his fails..when you read his book. Im guessing he could fix that dog, I have a rehabbed fear aggressive chihuahua that used to bite people including kids..should I put her down? Comparing a spaniel to a GSD is pointless.

What she should say is I dont have the skills to fix this dog, here is the contact information of someone that does. One thing I like about CM he brings in other professionals when he thinks he needs help. Its just rich that someone thats so vehemently pushes her anti correction junk would suggest putting down the dog.


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## misslesleedavis1

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Actually he lists his fails..when you read his book. Im guessing he could fix that dog, I have a rehabbed fear aggressive chihuahua that used to bite people including kids..should I put her down? Comparing a spaniel to a GSD is pointless.
> 
> What she should say is I dont have the skills to fix this dog, here is the contact information of someone that does. One thing I like about CM he brings in other professionals when he thinks he needs help. Its just rich that someone thats so vehemently pushes her anti correction junk would suggest putting down the dog.


anti correction? what is one suppose to do.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lots of people watch his show, but never actually understand what he is doing. Then they ascribe dominance to every situation and assume thats what he does. Talk to people that have actually been to his seminars before he got famous. He is a dog man on level most of us can only dream of. 




Castlemaid said:


> I watched a few episodes of CM, and found him riveting. Loved his charisma, his confidence, his energy, his humour. I didn't agree with much of what he was doing, but it was working for him, and I watched the shows as entertainment. I just saw him as a TV personality until . . .
> 
> A friend from work adopted a Rottie pup. Actually, her husband got a five month old pup, without her consent. He had been talking about getting a dog, a Rottweiler, for a while now, and she was not on board, but now that they had one, she was committed to doing her best with him.
> 
> The dog was five months old, and high energy. They were the pup's third home. The puppy was a lot of untrained energy that had never had any boundaries and consistency - and my friend being a CM fan, talked nothing but of the pup 'challenging' them, wanting to be alpha, and her efforts to 'make him submit'. I listened to her stories and tried to give her direction and support and advice, and explain to her that this is a pup has no intention of taking over and 'turning on them' - one of her fears. What this pup needs is patience, positive interaction, confidence building, love and consistency.
> 
> Fortunately she listened to my advice, and was grateful for it, because she knew my dogs, and she said her goal was to have her dog as well-behaved as mine (and I think mine are a bit wild - but I like it that way).
> 
> As she kept on talking about 'making the dog submit', I decided that CM was not 'just' a TV personality, but is actually dangerous as too many people throw common sense aside and follow his philosophies word-for-word, even when the situation does not call for it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

misslesleedavis1 said:


> anti correction? what is one suppose to do.


Well in the case of great danes barking from the back seat of a car.. Paper all the windows so they cant see out..that way they wont bark..:help:.


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## selzer

I read his book, Cesar's Way. He wrote that years ago. He has had more fails since then. I have seen some of them. And I too have seen way too many people try to wrongly use his methods to the detriment of their dogs. Everyone is an expert when they watch a few Cesar episodes. 

I didn't vote on this pole because I don't hate him. It's not that I don't care either way. I don't think he's OK. And I certainly don't love him. I think he has a lot going for him, and he could have success with any method of training he embraces. But I disagree with a lot of what he does, I do not find him entertaining, and I think he helps some dogs but a lot more dogs are harmed by people who think they are doing what Cesar would do. So, I find him somewhat dangerous.


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## misslesleedavis1

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Well in the case of great danes barking from the back seat of a car.. Paper all the windows so they cant see out..that way they wont bark..:help:.


I have never watched this lady, i do like CM though and i agree that he is on a different playing feild when it comes to dogs


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## misslesleedavis1

He is all about the calm approach, confident and what not, ever watch him with people? He uses eye contact the whole time, he is friendly and he uses massive amounts of NLP..he will say something to someone and reinforce it with a touch, he is very good at what he does with people and dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I sincerely doubt he has contributed to anymore dogs getting bad training then was already happening or would happen. I think in the end he has helped more folks then any other trainer I can think of. 

What does he espouse?

Exercise-That cant hurt

Discpiline-I know many think its the end of the world to correct a dog but it takes a lot of strength and malice to actually injure or ruin a relationship even with a soft dog..despite what many would like to think. So what if someone mistimes a correction? Such a person would have found some other way to screw up even without any discipline in their system or lack there of. 

Affection-Cant see that hurting

Leadership-Cant see that hurting. Sorry puppies I pay the bills Im calling the shots.

How much bad training has Petsmart inflicted on the world? Or other chain pet training schools? I have had pet clients tell me stuff other trainers from big schools have done that boggles the mind. They take your money, feed your dog some milkbone, hit the clicker a few times and give you a certificate. The owners wonder why fluffy wont behave reliably, cause "he has his grade 5, certificate and everything!!??".
Thats worse then any effect I have seen CM have on the dog world.


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## selzer

misslesleedavis1 said:


> anti correction? what is one suppose to do.


There are purely positive trainers out there. I guess. I suppose just carrying yourself in a no-nonsense fashion is enough and then when you re-direct or give a different command and then praise the dog for that action, it is enough to communicate to the dog what behavior is good and rewarded, and what behavior get no rewards, is boring, is quickly diverted into something more positive. 

The purely positive trainer does not use any physical corrections, nor do they use words like No! or Eh! -- negative markers. I really do not know anyone who trains purely positive. You have to have a lot more ideas in your bag, because if one positve method does not work, you need to adjust that. And you would really have to have different grades of positive to match the situation you are in. I mean a piece of kibble might recall your dog off the couch in the living room, but a piece of kibble is not going to recall your dog off a deer in the park. Redirecting to a chewy might work when the dog is chewing on a table leg, in your living room, but redirecting to a chewy may not work when a dog sees a bunch of skateboarders coming toward him. 

So you would have to have a lot of patience and creativity to be a purely positive trainer. Again, I just don't know of any. 

But, all the people that I know that are deep into dogs in the real world, are moving steadily toward a far more positive approach to just about everything, from puppy on up. They want dogs who obey because they know what they should do. They want dogs who will think and act, not just react out of knowing the sky will fall if they don't. 

I find it very funny, that most of the people that are ok with some aversion training or proofing when it comes to recall are also the ones that do not trust their recall 100%. Maybe the rest of us are fooling ourselves. But I am super confident in my recall anywhere, on lead or off lead, and with wildlife present or not. I think a dog is more likely to come in all situations if they view you as the provider of all good things, protector, and the one who always follows this command with praise and happy.


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## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I sincerely doubt he has contributed to anymore dogs getting bad training then was already happening or would happen. I think in the end he has helped more folks then any other trainer I can think of.
> 
> What does he espouse?
> 
> Exercise-That cant hurt
> 
> Discpiline-I know many think its the end of the world to correct a dog but it takes a lot of strength and malice to actually injure or ruin a relationship even with a soft dog..despite what many would like to think. So what if someone mistimes a correction? Such a person would have found some other way to screw up even without any discipline in their system or lack there of.
> 
> Affection-Cant see that hurting
> 
> Leadership-Cant see that hurting. Sorry puppies I pay the bills Im calling the shots.
> 
> How much bad training has Petsmart inflicted on the world? Or other chain pet training schools? I have had pet clients tell me stuff other trainers from big schools have done that boggles the mind. They take your money, feed your dog some milkbone, hit the clicker a few times and give you a certificate.
> Thats worse then any effect I have seen CM have on the dog world.


Yes, I read the book. There was nothing new in it, save maybe his personal path. He was not the first trainer to suggest exercise, a calm-assertive manner, discipline, leadership, affection. 

I think the thing that I have the biggest problem with, is how he handles aggression, be it dog aggression or people aggression. I think he pushes dogs beyond their thresholds and some of the aggression that you see would have never happened but for his method. And in other people's puppies with his dominance everything, they have no clue why a dog is doing what they are doing, and they react to the dog's reaction totally inappropriately, and perhaps get a response that may have never happened if they hadn't watched a couple of episodes of Cesar. 

There are so many better trainers out there, worth listening to, worth reading. They may not have a television program though. I like their theories and methods better. 

Cesar is hollywood. His show is sensationalism because that is what sells. The same is true of Victoria Stillwell. I mean, how boring would it be to watch some ordinary people train their dog not to potty in the house, and to be gentle with their puppy teeth? No, they have to show the Brittish equivalent of the Beverly Hillbillies deal with a dog. Where do they come up with these people -- either show. Rejects from Maury Pauvich? If you add up the dog owner's IQs for the entire season, you might not break 1000. It's sensationalism. It's like extreme angulation. They want stuff that will stand out. People letting the dog eat off their fork, their plate while they are eating dinner? People leaving turds all over the house? These people need to be in a home for people who are a danger to themselves. 

I suppose what is really disturbing is that people actually relate to the owners on these shows and want to try the crap that Cesar or Gloria is doing. Of course the dogs are crazy!!! Their owners are berzerk. You can't be raised by someone totally wacko without getting skewed view of reality. How can totally sane people relate to any of that stuff?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I think CM knows more about aggression and how to handle it then most modern trainers out there. He deals with stupid cases that any competent person could fix and he deals with cases that most trainers walk away from. He gets bit, most trainers do and remains calm and carries on. 

When you have a behavioral issues like aggression you can either manage them or remove them. He sets the behavior up so he can fix it. Some people choose to manage others choose to adjust. 
Most people get so caught up in his methods that they forget the results..which speak for themselves. But hey I get it, its easier to give your dog a treat and "redirect" him instead of correcting the behavior.

As for dominance, one persons dominance is anothers leadership. People freak when they hear the word before they even stop to think what it means. In any social grouping animal or otherwise there is one who is the leader. His goal is for the owners to take control be it a puppy or an adult. Call it dominance, leadership, guidance, alpha, whatever you like. 
I got no issue with that, the human is responsible for the dog they had better be the one in charge.


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## selzer

People are way too hung up on the dominance theory crap. Yes, I am in charge, I have the thumbs that can open the crates and get into the food bins. I have the car keys and the license. Of course I am in charge. 

I do not have to go through doors first, demand a dog not go on the couch or bed, or turn my dog over and pin it to the ground to be in charge. 

I do not have to walk in front of my dogs or carry a stick. I don't have to use special collars, or give the hisses or pokes to prove that I am indeed in charge. I am. They all know it and there are no peeing contests going on -- that's really funny. A police officer told us in their training with their dogs, they had to go out and pee on a tree and pee on the spots that the dog peed on, and not let the dog pee over their pee. Wow! People actually believe crap like that, LOL! 

Or maybe my dogs are just the only dogs out there smart enough to realize that I have the thumbs, the food bins, and the car keys. 

I am not opposed to correcting a dog. But I rarely have to. It just isn't necessary most of the time. Yes, you can redirect and that will keep them out of the trash, or chewing on the table leg. They learn quickly what is expected of them in house, even to avoid certain stuff or certain rooms. 

I have a couple of bitches in the same kennel, the indoor/outdoor pen that comes in right behind my living room couch. I did not use any corrections with the pup when I wanted her to go into her kennel, if she was inside the house, or outside in the yard. If she was inside, I could grab some cheese and throw it in there and she would go in. 

But outside, I would have to catch her and put her in, and I did not want to do this. I thought it would take forever for her to get it if I did not give a correction and make her go in. But I decided not to give the correction. Without actually training it or giving a correction, she learned that when I stand at the gate, either in the house or in the kennel with it open, she needs to GO IN. 

Now I can tell her, Karma, Go In, and she does -- no aversive training whatsoever. Plenty of distractions out there or in the house. But she knows I want her to GO IN now, and she does. 

I read these threads and I really wonder whether I am just really fortunate. Cesar is a natural leader. It's half the battle. Any method would work with him just how he carries himself. I do not think I am a natural leader. I was awful with my first dog. But, I think I may have learned -- my dogs taught me how to be a leader, and over the years it is just natural now. 

It doesn't resemble Cesar's model. 

And it seems I need fewer and fewer corrections with each dog I train. Why is that? 

And the people I train with, they started with the oldstyle choke chains and yanking, etc. They moved to prong collars and more positive techniques. Now they are even more positive than when I started over there. They will still suggest a prong to some people. But it seems like the people I have worked with get more and more positive in their approach as they get more experienced. And it is the ones that are yanking and using aversive methods that are having all the trouble with their dogs.


----------



## DaniFani

selzer said:


> People are way too hung up on the dominance theory crap. Yes, I am in charge, I have the thumbs that can open the crates and get into the food bins. I have the car keys and the license. Of course I am in charge.
> 
> I do not have to go through doors first, demand a dog not go on the couch or bed, or turn my dog over and pin it to the ground to be in charge.
> 
> I do not have to walk in front of my dogs or carry a stick. I don't have to use special collars, or give the hisses or pokes to prove that I am indeed in charge. I am. They all know it and there are no peeing contests going on -- that's really funny. A police officer told us in their training with their dogs, they had to go out and pee on a tree and pee on the spots that the dog peed on, and not let the dog pee over their pee. Wow! People actually believe crap like that, LOL!
> 
> Or maybe my dogs are just the only dogs out there smart enough to realize that I have the thumbs, the food bins, and the car keys.
> 
> I am not opposed to correcting a dog. But I rarely have to. It just isn't necessary most of the time. Yes, you can redirect and that will keep them out of the trash, or chewing on the table leg. They learn quickly what is expected of them in house, even to avoid certain stuff or certain rooms.
> 
> I have a couple of bitches in the same kennel, the indoor/outdoor pen that comes in right behind my living room couch. I did not use any corrections with the pup when I wanted her to go into her kennel, if she was inside the house, or outside in the yard. If she was inside, I could grab some cheese and throw it in there and she would go in.
> 
> But outside, I would have to catch her and put her in, and I did not want to do this. I thought it would take forever for her to get it if I did not give a correction and make her go in. But I decided not to give the correction. Without actually training it or giving a correction, she learned that when I stand at the gate, either in the house or in the kennel with it open, she needs to GO IN.
> 
> Now I can tell her, Karma, Go In, and she does -- no aversive training whatsoever. Plenty of distractions out there or in the house. But she knows I want her to GO IN now, and she does.
> 
> I read these threads and I really wonder whether I am just really fortunate. Cesar is a natural leader. It's half the battle. Any method would work with him just how he carries himself. I do not think I am a natural leader. I was awful with my first dog. But, I think I may have learned -- my dogs taught me how to be a leader, and over the years it is just natural now.
> 
> It doesn't resemble Cesar's model.
> 
> And it seems I need fewer and fewer corrections with each dog I train. Why is that?
> 
> And the people I train with, they started with the oldstyle choke chains and yanking, etc. They moved to prong collars and more positive techniques. Now they are even more positive than when I started over there. They will still suggest a prong to some people. But it seems like the people I have worked with get more and more positive in their approach as they get more experienced. And it is the ones that are yanking and using aversive methods that are having all the trouble with their dogs.


Or maybe your dogs aren't as genetically aggressive, hard, or sharp (whatever buzz word is being used now) dogs as some of the working lines (or breeds that have, and are supposed to have, genetic aggression). :shrug: 

A lot of aggression issues seem to stem from an unclear foundation in obedience and other unclear training and "rules" in the home. Others are just genetic aggression (there is supposed to be some in this breed) gone wrong, or in the wrong hands. There is a time and place for everything I think. 

You seem to really pride yourself on the obedience and intelligence of your dogs. They sound very obedient and that they understand you are in charge. That's wonderful. But there are lines and breeds and dogs out there that are just hard (aggressive, sharp, handler challenging, etc) and I agree with Blitz that those dogs require more. Every dog is different. Some require harder corrections, for clarity. Just because your lines don't require that, doesn't mean others are less intelligent or their handlers don't know anything. 

Of course, I think CM deals mostly with dogs that have really REALLY conflicting and confusing home lives. No consistency in rules, no follow thru with corrections, no clarity, etc...and they sure as heck didn't get it when they were puppies. I just don't like your tone of "I must have super intelligent dogs because they know I'm in charge and I didn't have to do much" tone. Your dogs may just not be super hard. Give you ten malinois and it might be a different story lol. 

I do agree that CM's methods are used waaaay wrong by some in the public. I also know there are those warnings "don't try at home" etc...I'm failing to see how it's his fault that people think they are experts. I also agree that he has done more for more dogs than most trainers will ever do. He just deals with a different level of challenge than some others.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lol you know the dogs I have had that needed few corrections and were very compliant? The soft ones with mediocre to low drive. Just my experience.

Anyways, you are once again getting caught up in the minutia of his methods. You see what you want to see and that goes for anyone. Who cares if he carries a walking stick or hisses instead of saying no? Who cares if he pokes the dog instead of giving it a treat or prong correction? None of that really matters. What matters is the end result.
There are many ways to be a leader, I dont villify him for using what works for him. Why should I? He has achieved more then you and I ever likely will. The dogs and owners he deals with need a system and structure that is consistent and Black/White. He provides that.

Perhaps if you had 40+ dogs with varying behavior issues and drive levels you would take the leadership thing a bit more seriously.. I know I sure would. Perhaps if our day job was rehabbing aggressive dogs we would be a bit more serious about all of it. 
Its just funny when you get down to why most people dont like him, its because he doesnt do things the way you think it "should" be done. Yet he is vastly popular and has a body of work that is immense. It just upsets people that he doesnt follow the "modern methods" yet has enormous success (though they will try to deny that as well). Its just a pain when someone comes along and ruins the party balloon with the reality needle. 
You can watch any world renown trainer and nitpick mistakes or things that could be done better. In the end you have to ask youself can I do what he does better? The answer if your honest is 99% of the time "No".


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## boomer11

DaniFani said:


> You seem to really pride yourself on the obedience and intelligence of your dogs. They sound very obedient and that they understand you are in charge. That's wonderful. But there are lines and breeds and dogs out there that are just hard (aggressive, sharp, handler challenging, etc) and I agree with Blitz that those dogs require more. Every dog is different. Some require harder corrections, for clarity. Just because your lines don't require that, doesn't mean others are less intelligent or their handlers don't know anything.
> 
> Of course, I think CM deals mostly with dogs that have really REALLY conflicting and confusing home lives. No consistency in rules, no follow thru with corrections, no clarity, etc...and they sure as heck didn't get it when they were puppies. I just don't like your tone of "I must have super intelligent dogs because they know I'm in charge and I didn't have to do much" tone. Your dogs may just not be super hard. Give you ten malinois and it might be a different story lol.


agreed. thats the tone i got from selzers post also. just because you've trained a couple of dogs to get their cgc (a test so simple puppies could get) doesnt mean you would know what to do with dogs so aggressive they're about to be put to sleep. say what you will about cesar but he has saved many dogs from being killed. not only does he care about the dogs but he has the personality to be a tv star. put most of us on a tv show and we'd be so boring no one would watch. 

i think you can learn stuff from watching both the cesar and victoria stillwell shows but in the end, its reality tv. if there wasnt drama or suspense, dog whisperer wouldnt have lasted for so many seasons. it's easy to sit there and talk about the failures of cesar milan sitting behind a keyboard putting down his methods and never having to deal with extreme cases every day.


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## G-burg

> I sincerely doubt he has contributed to anymore dogs getting bad training then was already happening or would happen. I think in the end he has helped more folks then any other trainer I can think of.
> 
> What does he espouse?
> 
> Exercise-That cant hurt
> 
> Discpiline-I know many think its the end of the world to correct a dog but it takes a lot of strength and malice to actually injure or ruin a relationship even with a soft dog..despite what many would like to think. So what if someone mistimes a correction? Such a person would have found some other way to screw up even without any discipline in their system or lack there of.
> 
> Affection-Cant see that hurting
> 
> Leadership-Cant see that hurting. Sorry puppies I pay the bills Im calling the shots.
> 
> How much bad training has Petsmart inflicted on the world? Or other chain pet training schools? I have had pet clients tell me stuff other trainers from big schools have done that boggles the mind. They take your money, feed your dog some milkbone, hit the clicker a few times and give you a certificate. The owners wonder why fluffy wont behave reliably, cause "he has his grade 5, certificate and everything!!??".
> Thats worse then any effect I have seen CM have on the dog world.


I agree.. 



> I suppose what is really disturbing is that people actually relate to the owners on these shows and want to try the crap that Cesar or Gloria is doing. Of course the dogs are crazy!!! Their owners are berzerk. You can't be raised by someone totally wacko without getting skewed view of reality. How can totally sane people relate to any of that stuff?


 Wow Selzer, that's a bit of a low blow don't you think??


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## selzer

boomer11 said:


> agreed. thats the tone i got from selzers post also. just because you've trained a couple of dogs to get their cgc (a test so simple puppies could get) doesnt mean you would know what to do with dogs so aggressive they're about to be put to sleep. say what you will about cesar but he has saved many dogs from being killed. not only does he care about the dogs but he has the personality to be a tv star. put most of us on a tv show and we'd be so boring no one would watch.
> 
> i think you can learn stuff from watching both the cesar and victoria stillwell shows but in the end, its reality tv. if there wasnt drama or suspense, dog whisperer wouldnt have lasted for so many seasons. it's easy to sit there and talk about the failures of cesar milan sitting behind a keyboard putting down his methods and never having to deal with extreme cases every day.


Guess you missed the CDs, but they are no more difficult than the RAs. I have trained in herding and agility as well. But whatever. I got RNs on 3 dogs, legs on 4 dogs in a weekend. 
A CD on one dog, and an RA + and RE leg on another in the same weekend. But whatever. I agree that puppies can get the CGC. I do it because it is offered within my driving range. And yes, I have put it on a dozen dogs or more. It is truly no big deal. I have no desire to do schutzhund. I have puppies out there that are or have done schutzhund or are being trained in protection. I think that the way you raise a puppy makes a difference though in their drives. If you are constantly playing tug or flirt pole with a dog you can build some drives. 

I have a schutzhund dog and I have taken her to classes. She is no different than my other dogs. She is handler sensitive, not soft or fearful. I just don't have to hit her, jerk her, yell at her, put a prong collar on her to get her to do what I want.

But of course, if you have the audacity to not bow down and worship Cesar Millan, then people will say -- look at you with just a few CGCs under your belt. Hard to respect people when they not only diss other people's accomplishments, but lie when they are dissing them.


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## Blanketback

I think he's great but that doesn't mean that I'm going to copycat his every move. I've read his books and there are a few things I don't agree with - like everything else in life, lol. I can't blame him for other people trying to imitate him. I'm not surprised by it either, though. Some people think they can do anything, and don't appreciate the talents of others. It's not just CM, it's everything short of brain surgery. My neighbor might take out his home, and possibly the next house over, because he thought the quote from the arborist I used in the fall was too high. Huh. I guess swinging around in the branches of a tree with a huge rotted hole through the trunk, while wielding a chainsaw, is pretty easy? Lol.


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## selzer

G-burg said:


> I agree..
> 
> Wow Selzer, that's a bit of a low blow don't you think??


What, that the people on those shows come from the Jerry Sringer reject pool? Sorry, but every episode I have seen has had to weirdows on there with their dogs. Dogs raised by weirdows are probably going to be a bit wacked. 

Of course most of reality TV doesn't appear to be any part of the reality I witness. It's embarrassing to see grown adults acting like that on TV. I have to leave the room. I am so glad I don't pay for any type of programming. That would add injury to the insult.


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## Merciel

I went through a cycle of (a) watching the show seriously and trying to Learn Things; (b) realizing that nothing in his approach worked for me and there were actually a number of problems with several aspects of the underlying philosophy; (c) extreme anti-Cesar reactionary phase; (d) generally apathetic disinterest in, coupled with awareness of both good and bad points about, the show.

At this point in my life, the primary benefit I get out of CM is that whenever somebody tells me that he is their absolute #1 favorite trainer on earth, it's a quick and convenient way for me to figure out that I probably do not have a whole lot to talk about with that person.


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## Blanketback

Merciel said:


> At this point in my life, the primary benefit I get out of CM is that whenever somebody tells me that he is their absolute #1 favorite trainer on earth, it's a quick and convenient way for me to figure out that I probably do not have a whole lot to talk about with that person.


LOL! That comment reminded me of a guy I saw who was walking the cutest little GSD puppy. I spied them from a distance, and couldn't wait until they got closer. Unfortunately, I also noticed that every time they encountered another dog along the way, he picked up his pup and shoved the poor puppy's rear end into the unfamiliar dog's face. I never did get to meet them because I definitely didn't want to participate with my own dog, so I walked away. I guess he got that from CM? I've seen CM offer a dog's rear to another dog, and maybe there's something to this and it makes some kind of sense....but I'd put my money on this owner joining the forum asking why his GSD is so terribly dog reactive, myself.


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## MadLab

> I've seen CM offer a dog's rear to another dog, and maybe there's something to this and it makes some kind of sense


This actually works well on small dogs who are aggro and growling at big dogs. 

Once dogs sniff each other tension between them is released. Until they sniff each other there can be a stand off. 

It's like sniff each other and get over it.


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> Guess you missed the CDs, but they are no more difficult than the RAs. I have trained in herding and agility as well. But whatever. I got RNs on 3 dogs, legs on 4 dogs in a weekend.
> A CD on one dog, and an RA + and RE leg on another in the same weekend. But whatever. I agree that puppies can get the CGC. I do it because it is offered within my driving range. And yes, I have put it on a dozen dogs or more. It is truly no big deal. I have no desire to do schutzhund. I have puppies out there that are or have done schutzhund or are being trained in protection. I think that the way you raise a puppy makes a difference though in their drives. If you are constantly playing tug or flirt pole with a dog you can build some drives.
> 
> *I have a schutzhund dog and I have taken her to classes. She is no different than my other dogs. She is handler sensitive, not soft or fearful. I just don't have to hit her, jerk her, yell at her, put a prong collar on her to get her to do what I want.*
> 
> But of course, if you have the audacity to not bow down and worship Cesar Millan, then people will say -- look at you with just a few CGCs under your belt. Hard to respect people when they not only diss other people's accomplishments, but lie when they are dissing them.


You *bought* a titled dog. You didn't actually title the dog. Just because you have *one* dog that *you* didn't even title in the bitework, doesn't mean you now know everything about what kind of dog it takes to excel in the sport, or what a truly hard dog needs. Plenty of soft dogs get titled, we've had one soft dog who got his IPO 1 last fall. Not ideal, and def (in my opinion) not breedworthy, but he did well enough and earned his title. Just because your dog that came with the title doesn't take a pinch collar or any corrections, doesn't mean that your methods would work on some of the harder, tougher, higher drive dogs, that are out there....or that those dogs are less intelligent or that their handlers are "jerry springer members."

I use all positive on my pup and corgi so far. Don't know what the heck the future will hold for my pup. He has some def hardness in his pedigree, but who knows. We will do positive with as little conflict, as long as possible. Doesn't mean I don't recognize that there are dogs out there that require something else, and I don't think it translates to lower IQ's on either the handler or the dog's part. Actually, some of the most intelligent, "thinking", dogs I've seen trained, challenge their handler the most. It's the doofy ones that don't challenge. :shrug:

And no one is asking you to "bow down" to CM. I think he's goofy, but I can acknowledge he's done more positive for very problematic dogs than most of us ever will. Acknowledging something's existence isn't "bowing down"....jeesh, no need for the dramatics. lol


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## DaniFani

Merciel said:


> I went through a cycle of (a) watching the show seriously and trying to Learn Things; (b) realizing that nothing in his approach worked for me and there were actually a number of problems with several aspects of the underlying philosophy; (c) extreme anti-Cesar reactionary phase; (d) generally apathetic disinterest in, coupled with awareness of both good and bad points about, the show.
> 
> *At this point in my life, the primary benefit I get out of CM is that whenever somebody tells me that he is their absolute #1 favorite trainer on earth, it's a quick and convenient way for me to figure out that I probably do not have a whole lot to talk about with that person.*


I think this about anyone who views anyone else in such high regard. I'll never forget after a certain president was elected someone I said, "Hi, how are you today" at my job, responded with, "I'm fantastic, my *savior* was elected." That's just so silly to me...savior? Really? No one in any position should be a savior, or worshiped, or idolized. I love Bart Bellon, I like some of his techniques, and I am hoping to attend a seminar of his next fall. I also watch Michael Ellis stuff, and some other trainers...but I don't go around preaching anything like it's gospel lol. 

CM does seem to attract some very avid fans though. Meh, doesn't mean much to me. I'll train my dog how I want to and they can train their dogs however they want to. I'm not going to rain on someone's parade because I personally don't like their style. I WILL speak up when other's attack people's methods. 

I've had a few choice words with anti-correction people, usually only because they are calling those who use corrections as less intelligent, or unable to "connect" with their dog....what's the point of that?? Everyone has their own style, their own unique dog, and their own requirements. Unless a dog is being severely abused, it's none of my business or anyone else's how they are trained. I don't think "positive only" "Nepopo" "nilif" or anyone who uses any of these methods or any others, are less intelligent or 100% correct or 100% wrong. It's working for them, great! 

The best handlers I know, adopt all kinds of methods from multiple schools of thought and find a balance for the individual dog they are working....and most of them are the LAST to tell someone how they should or shouldn't be training, usually only offering advice when specifically asked. *Most also won't be found on the internet or any forums. They have to be sought out in real life. 

None of this was to you directly M, I agree with your thoughts.


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## DaniFani

Oops, I lied about the corgi. He's had to be given some corrections, he is a stubborn little thing and challenges you harder than most. My TD couldn't believe how hard he was for how little he is. Love corgis!! The pup, not yet. Going for zero conflict as long as I can.


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## selzer

I bought a (singular) titled dog. I have trained and titled many. CGCs are not titles. Well, I guess now they can be. But the schutzhund dog definitely needed classes. I could not step into the ring with her and get a title when she came here. She is great with people, etc, but she needed to learn how to walk on a lead without dragging me, etc. She's a show dog. 

The only people I think are Jerry Springer candidates are the people who appear on so many of the episodes of both shows. Talk about dramatics. I do wonder how people can watch them, and relate to them or their problems with their dogs. The problems with their dogs are generally because they are nuts. 

I have never equated a hard dog with lack of intelligence. I think that it was suggested of soft dogs, and I will totally disagree with that. That a dog does not challenge the leadership position does not indicate a lack of intelligence. 

I think that a lot of people that truly subscribe to the dominance theory crap believe dog are a lot less intelligent than they are. My dogs can tell the difference between humans and dogs, it makes absolutely no sense for me to act like a dog to let them know I am higher on the totem pole than they are. I do not have to correct them the way some people think bitches correct their pups either. 

Ya all's hero promotes laser pointers to exercise dogs, and tug with the disclaimer that tug comes with a lot of risks and you need to be in charge to engage in tug with a dog. Geeze, even my trainers from out here in the boonies knows enough to discourage laser pointers, and keeps her feelings about tug to herself.


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> I bought a (singular) titled dog. I have trained and titled many. CGCs are not titles. Well, I guess now they can be. But the schutzhund dog definitely needed classes. I could not step into the ring with her and get a title when she came here. She is great with people, etc, but she needed to learn how to walk on a lead without dragging me, etc. She's a show dog.
> 
> The only people I think are Jerry Springer candidates are the people who appear on so many of the episodes of both shows. Talk about dramatics. I do wonder how people can watch them, and relate to them or their problems with their dogs. The problems with their dogs are generally because they are nuts.
> 
> I have never equated a hard dog with lack of intelligence. I think that it was suggested of soft dogs, and I will totally disagree with that. That a dog does not challenge the leadership position does not indicate a lack of intelligence.
> 
> I think that a lot of people that truly subscribe to the dominance theory crap believe dog are a lot less intelligent than they are. My dogs can tell the difference between humans and dogs, it makes absolutely no sense for me to act like a dog to let them know I am higher on the totem pole than they are. I do not have to correct them the way some people think bitches correct their pups either.
> 
> *Ya all's hero* promotes laser pointers to exercise dogs, and tug with the disclaimer that tug comes with a lot of risks and you need to be in charge to engage in tug with a dog. Geeze, even my trainers from out here in the boonies knows enough to discourage laser pointers, and keeps her feelings about tug to herself.


There you go again with the theatrics lol. No one is saying he's a hero. I'm sure if you video tapped every training session you ever had we would be able to pick apart all your weaknesses and trash your intelligence, because of moments in time and outdated thoughts.

I don't even like CM!!! lol, I just think it's rude the way you are describing those that do. To each their own. Why do you care so much to call people such harsh names? You just do what's working for you and what your lines/dogs require, and others will do the same. 

You may not mean to come off as you are, but several hear are taking your comments very arrogantly. You believe yourself to be more of a natural leader than most...have a tone that your dogs must be more intelligent because they "just know" you are leader...that anyone that can relate to certain situations on the show are not sane...then you go on to be so dramatic that you have to "leave the room" because it's so embarrassing. 

Forgive people for reading these very bold statements, and then wondering what kind of proof you have to back up your claims of perfect obedience and genius-level genetic dogs. As well as your experience titling, and/or working with overly aggressive, behavioral/problem dogs (since you think these methods are all wrong, I assumed you must have vast knowledge and experience rehabbing and "fixing" similar dogs and would share the "right way" of fixing extreme problem dogs). 

Just let it go, it's not worth it to say such harsh words about groups of people, and equating them to "Jerry Springer rejects" or whatever your exact wordage was.


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## selzer

Must've hit some type of nerve. Whatever. I am being somewhat defensive, because my dogs and my level of training have been attacked. 

As for the hero -- yes people are calling him a hero -- he has done more for dogs than any other trainer. And I totally disagree with this. 

I am NOT describing those that do. I am describing people on the show, people on reality television that do not represent any form of reality. What people will do for money, it is disgusting and embarrassing, and yes, when people act so totally stupid on TV, I do have to leave the room. 

I think most of us started training dogs with methods that we later refined or disgarded. I find that the people I train with are constantly becoming more and more positive in their approaches to training over the years. And of course the dogs are going to get easier. I have more experience and am not making the same mistakes that I made with my first couple of dogs. 

I said point blank that I am NOT a natural leader. I said that I think CM IS a natural leader. But, with the number of dogs I have taken from here to there, leadership is becoming more natural. It does not resemble CMs teaching to be a leader. I never said, I am more of a natural leader than anyone. 

Whatever, sometimes, you like to take things totally out of context and start a hen fight. I guess whatever floats your boat.


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## Merciel

DaniFani said:


> I think this about anyone who views anyone else in such high regard.


For me it's pretty CM-specific. 

If somebody tells me that their #1 favorite trainer on earth is Silvia Trkman, I draw certain conclusions from that ("this person is aware of dog sports, is probably into agility, and probably has an R+ slant. let's be friends!"). If somebody tells me it's Ivan B or Michael Ellis, I draw certain conclusions from that (again, "this person is aware of dog sports, is probably into IPO, and probably starts with R+ foundations but isn't opposed to using forcible corrections somewhere in the proofing stages. I might be able to learn something useful from this person"). If somebody tells me it's Patricia McConnell, I assume they're mostly into R+ pet training/behavioral rehab. If somebody tells me it's Koehler, I assume they're a dinosaur, and probably one of the peanut brain dinosaurs at that. And so on.

Fairly or not, what I conclude from somebody telling me that Millan is their absolute favorite #1 trainer on earth is "okay, this is a pet person who watches a lot of TV and doesn't think too critically about things."

I'm not saying that any of this is sensible, well informed, or even particularly rational. I'm just saying these are my personal biases and the snap judgments I make about people.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Merciel said:


> For me it's pretty CM-specific.
> 
> If somebody tells me that their #1 favorite trainer on earth is Silvia Trkman, I draw certain conclusions from that ("this person is aware of dog sports, is probably into agility, and probably has an R+ slant. let's be friends!"). If somebody tells me it's Ivan B or Michael Ellis, I draw certain conclusions from that (again, "this person is aware of dog sports, is probably into IPO, and probably starts with R+ foundations but isn't opposed to using forcible corrections somewhere in the proofing stages. I might be able to learn something useful from this person"). If somebody tells me it's Patricia McConnell, I assume they're mostly into R+ pet training/behavioral rehab. If somebody tells me it's Koehler, I assume they're a dinosaur, and probably one of the peanut brain dinosaurs at that. And so on.
> 
> Fairly or not, what I conclude from somebody telling me that Millan is their absolute favorite #1 trainer on earth is "okay, this is a pet person who watches a lot of TV and doesn't think too critically about things."
> 
> I'm not saying that any of this is sensible, well informed, or even particularly rational. I'm just saying these are my personal biases and the snap judgments I make about people.


Yeah, pretty much, and well said! :rofl:


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## Blitzkrieg1

I dont think you have ever had a dog that I would consider to be hard or drivey nor do I think you could ever achieve a title in a serious sport where the dog is required to maintain focus and be in drive under distraction. Where the dog and handler are put under pressure..unless you changed the way you train. I think you would have trouble even living with such a dog..but thats just my opinion . 

Your IPO dog didnt need classes it needed an assertive handler to create clear and consistent expectations. A few judicious corrections coupled with rewards would have made things abundantly clear in a few days. 

I dont use personally use Cesar's methods because Im into sport. I do respect his accomplishments. He came from nothing and built an empire. There is no other trainer that has had the impact he has.

Since you brought up all the crazy people he deals with Ill bring up some interesting cases he worked some dogs through that I guarentee you or any other members of the cookie and clicker brigade would have failed in.

-Male black lab that was aggressive in his kennel, handler and family where quite competent.

-Male black mastiff mix that came up the leash at CM and was attacking the owners roommate.

-Male Pitbull that was so aggressive that it would attack anyone that entered the property.

-Black SAR GSDs that were chasing shadows

-Male bomb dog that developed a fear of explosions


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## boomer11

comparing michael ellis and cesar is pretty hilarious. one is a trainer that specializes in ipo and building drive and making the dog do nice routines; the other specializes in dog psychology and rehabbing really messed up dogs. could cesar get an ipo3 title on a dog? could michael ellis rehab some really messed up dogs? 

cesar just doesnt have a tv show. he has a dog rehab center and it wouldnt still be in business for more than a decade if his methods dont work. i dont like or hate the guy but i do respect what he has done. its funny that people sit behind a keyboard and put down him and his clients like they could do better. his clients are no different then people who come on this board and are just over their heads. people who rescue a dog and it has major issues but they want to fix it instead of giving the dog back. funny sitting behind a keyboard putting those types of people down just because their dog misbehaves.


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## Merciel

boomer11 said:


> comparing michael ellis and cesar is pretty hilarious.


I'm not comparing the _trainers_.

I'm comparing my personal stereotypes about people who will give those respective names when asked "who's your #1 absolute most favorite trainer on earth?"

Little bit different.


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## Packen

Cesar's done more for the pet community than everyone else put together.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Packen's post.

And to add, Keep in mind we ALL have german shepherds, for me, anyway, mine have been easy trainers.

How many GSD's with issues have you seen on CM's show? Not many.

The majority are small breeds, bully breeds, etc..

I'm not a fan of some of his methods, BUT, for the pet people out there that know nothing, how to deal with certain things, dogs that are basically ready to be dumped/or put down, he can be a life saver.

And so what if the guy's making money via AP? I think anyone in their right mind if they knew they could make some big bucks doing whatever, they aren't going to pass it off.

I guess my feeling is rather the same as Packens. How many dogs would have been dumped or put down because CM wasn't in the picture?


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## Bequavious

selzer said:


> Ya all's hero promotes laser pointers to exercise dogs, and tug with the disclaimer that tug comes with a lot of risks and you need to be in charge to engage in tug with a dog. Geeze, even my trainers from out here in the boonies knows enough to discourage laser pointers, and keeps her feelings about tug to herself.


From the little I've seen, he's actually adamantly against lasers for exercise. Mostly he pushes walks, runs, bikes, rollerblades, and treadmills.

I think if you watch his show with outside knowledge of dogs, it's interesting. The man does get results, but due to the nature of tv (suspense, editing for time, etc) it could be easy to miss what's really causing the difference. To a lot of people it looks like magic, and it's going to be almost impossible to replicate on your own. People will readily latch onto the 'magic' technique (putting their pup's butt in every dogs' nose, always walking out the door first, replicating Ceasar's sound, etc) and miss the big picture of exercise, leadership, and consistency.

Sometimes I'm not even sure trainers know _why_ their techniques work, but for the people whose crazy dogs are finally behaving it probably doesn't matter too much. Maybe their dog sees them as "leader of the pack" maybe she just realizes that bad behavior no longer gets the results she wants while the good behavior does. In any case if you're getting results with countless dogs across the country, you're probably going to figure your reasoning is right and not question it too much. *shrug* At least the people's crazy dogs can live out their lives in a caring home now.


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## Blanketback

MadLab said:


> This actually works well on small dogs who are aggro and growling at big dogs.


Have you ever had any success with this yourself? Why would it work on small dogs instead of all dogs - is it because it's safer to hold a struggling Pomeranian than a Rottweiler? I've dealt with my fair share of DA before, and there's no way I'd be holding my dogs' butts for another to sniff. I'm also betting this would have escalated the problem, not diffused it. If this has worked for anybody, I'd like to hear about it. Other than CM, because I'm certain that it's his demeanor with the dogs more that the act of sniffing itself that gives these remarkable results. 

I laugh when people imitate CM's "Tsssst" because it seems like some people think they've discovered a secret language, and the "tssst" means, "Obey me NOW dog." CM himself says (in one of his books, forget which one) that this was a natural sound for him to make because his mother had always used it with him. It was simply a warning that he'd better behave - or look out, lol. I think we all use these warnings, whether it's a "pssst" or "hey" or "enough" or whatever comes naturally to us individually.


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## Cetan

I don't love him, or hate him. I think he gets results with his methods but I disagree with that being the only way to train a dog. To me it also feels kind of impersonal.

The people I do hate are the idiots like that man who took his pitbull to the mall, thinking he was so perfectly trained because he was friends with Cesar.


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## misslesleedavis1

Cetan said:


> I don't love him, or hate him. I think he gets results with his methods but I disagree with that being the only way to train a dog. To me it also feels kind of impersonal.
> 
> The people I do hate are the idiots like that man who took his pitbull to the mall, thinking he was so perfectly trained because he was friends with Cesar.


What happened there?


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## MadLab

Originally Posted by *MadLab*  
_This actually works well on small dogs who are aggro and growling at big dogs.

_
Have you ever had any success with this yourself?

I only tried it on a jack russel who was kindof fearful but aggressive to 3 larger dogs (65-85 pound)

Any time the Jack Russel started growling I'd pick it up and turn around and offer rear to the larger dogs. It simply calmed the jack russel as the other dogs were already calm. It was an enclosed space and if i did nothing the jack russel would just be nervous and growly. By doing this the tension was releaved and the jack russel became more confident in the space.

Generally dogs want to sniff eachother and then will relax. The nervous dog may get aggressive as it doesn't weant to be sniffed due to lack of socialising.

I'm thinking it is just good for small dogs as once you pick them up they can't do anything. The bigger the dog the more it may struggle which will deminish any trust established. It's possible picking up a dog can trigger prey instinct too as is discussed with picking up cats. I wouldn't do with dogs I didn't know.

Check out when a dog is being pursued by a group of excited dogs. Sometimes it will pee submissively or sometimes it will pee on a pole or whatever. The dogs go to the pee and get the information they want rather than continueing to pursue the dog. If the dog doesn't pee it will try to sit down or block but the excited dogs will just shove their heads in there and get the scent they desire.

By actually doing it for the dogs, you save that confrotation and chase.


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## MadLab

And I find the 'tssst' a good sound for getting a dogs attention when they are doing something unwanted instead of saying 'hey' or 'stop' that.

Generally I keep speaking with a dog to a minimum. A tsssh is a good correction as the dogs brain does achknowledge that sound.


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## selzer

I use "Eh!" It is just as effective. Dogs get it. 

I think that he may help some dogs, but I know dogs whose owners have used his techniques and have gotten themselves in a world of trouble. They usually start when the puppy is only a few months old, and they create problems where there is only normal puppy behavior. 

Why is it that everyone thinks their dog is the incurably hard, dominant dog that needs to be shown who's the boss? Why are so many people with baby puppies worried about dominance in those puppies? I think a lot of people's relationships with their dogs are damaged right at the beginning because of what they have watched on Cesar's shows. 

It's like The Brady Bunch folks. That isn't real life. I am not saying that he isn't finding some hard cases to show-case, but most of the dogs out there do not need that sort of treatment. And do that to a sensitive/soft dog, and you can turn a dog with weaker nerves into a fear-biter, something that may have never happened if people weren't trying to be Cesar Millan. That same dog, if the people would have used training, positive leadership, worked within their thresholds, and used praise and treats in training to build confidence, that dog may have turned out totally different.

Perhaps it it human nature to think that your dog's problems is one of the worst, that ordinary training isn't going to work with this dog, that the pup is being defiant, stubborn, dominant, when really it is just beinging a puppy, and then reacting to your response to his being a puppy, and if that response is out of proportion with what it ought to be, the defiance or stubbornness could be the dog being bewildered, afraid of doing the wrong thing, and shutting down. 

Don't try this crap at home folks. Well you can translate that to, try this with your dog. Everyone does that. He is showing techniques he uses on a dog. It's so simple. Just go up in there and put that dog on it's side, make it submit, make it get into a calm state. 

Maybe he has saved a few dozen, or a few hundred dogs from going to the needle. But how many dogs have people sent to the needle because their use of his techniques made their dog worse to the point of being totally unstable? They aren't blaming him. No. Because they just believe that their dog was that one that was so bad that it couldn't be helped. And how many other dogs could have started out on a much more positive footing if their owners weren't peppered with CM? Their owners starting out the whole dog ownership thing CMing it from the get go, when it was totally unnecessary.


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## boomer11

lol so its cesar's fault that people are idiots? its a reality tv show and has disclaimers before every episode to not do this with a trainer present. so its his fault people dont listen? okkkayyy. name a trainer that has done more for dogs then cesar has?


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## selzer

boomer11 said:


> lol so its cesar's fault that people are idiots? its a reality tv show and has disclaimers before every episode to not do this with a trainer present. so its his fault people dont listen? okkkayyy. name a trainer that has done more for dogs then cesar has?


There are a lot of trainers who have spent their lives working with dogs. They have worked with newbie pet owners, and people who are showing their dogs in many venues. They have worked with aggressive dogs. They have worked with puppies. They have worked with rescues. 

They are members of dog clubs, and training clubs, and get calls for help from all venues. They also hold seminars at shows, and go to schools and teach children what to do when they see a strange dog, how to act with dogs. They hold matches and all the proceeds go to dog shelters in the area. The hold other events and support dog charities and are constantly giving back. 

They have taken in rescues and rehomed dogs for people. Some have written books, newspaper columns on the dog training. Others have just been on call from vets and groomers when they have a client with a dog with real issues. 

There are many. They do not have packs of 40 pit bulls, but they have probably worked with as many dogs as Cesar has in his tenure. 

There are many of them. I know some. 

They have probably done as much for dogs as Cesar. 

Give or take, one guy can still only work with one dog at a time. So one person can work with the same number of dogs that another person has.


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## boomer11

so basically you just described cesar millan. with the one exception that cesar has enough business savvy to actually expand his vision and his business. so i ask you again, what trainer has done more for the dog world than him? what trainer has had more impact? a trainer can make an impact without actually training the dog one on one. you cant blame cesar for people ignoring all the warnings and trying what they see on tv. your argument of he has done more harm than good is very very very weak.


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## boomer11

most of the "famous" trainers now days are out to make money. cesar rehabilitates and actually adopts some of those dogs into his own home. because of his fame, his foundation to help shelters probably has saved more dogs than all the other trainers combined.


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> I use "Eh!" It is just as effective. Dogs get it.
> 
> I think that he may help some dogs, but I know dogs whose owners have used his techniques and have gotten themselves in a world of trouble. They usually start when the puppy is only a few months old, and they create problems where there is only normal puppy behavior.
> 
> Why is it that everyone thinks their dog is the incurably hard, dominant dog that needs to be shown who's the boss? Why are so many people with baby puppies worried about dominance in those puppies? I think a lot of people's relationships with their dogs are damaged right at the beginning because of what they have watched on Cesar's shows.
> 
> It's like The Brady Bunch folks. That isn't real life. I am not saying that he isn't finding some hard cases to show-case, but most of the dogs out there do not need that sort of treatment. And do that to a sensitive/soft dog, and you can turn a dog with weaker nerves into a fear-biter, something that may have never happened if people weren't trying to be Cesar Millan. That same dog, if the people would have used training, positive leadership, worked within their thresholds, and used praise and treats in training to build confidence, that dog may have turned out totally different.
> 
> Perhaps it it human nature to think that your dog's problems is one of the worst, that ordinary training isn't going to work with this dog, that the pup is being defiant, stubborn, dominant, when really it is just beinging a puppy, and then reacting to your response to his being a puppy, and if that response is out of proportion with what it ought to be, the defiance or stubbornness could be the dog being bewildered, afraid of doing the wrong thing, and shutting down.
> 
> Don't try this crap at home folks. Well you can translate that to, try this with your dog. Everyone does that. He is showing techniques he uses on a dog. It's so simple. Just go up in there and put that dog on it's side, make it submit, make it get into a calm state.
> 
> Maybe he has saved a few dozen, or a few hundred dogs from going to the needle. But how many dogs have people sent to the needle because their use of his techniques made their dog worse to the point of being totally unstable? They aren't blaming him. No. Because they just believe that their dog was that one that was so bad that it couldn't be helped. And how many other dogs could have started out on a much more positive footing if their owners weren't peppered with CM? Their owners starting out the whole dog ownership thing CMing it from the get go, when it was totally unnecessary.


I guess you feel as strongly about this as I feel about some people's breeding practices. I believe some, even around here, are breeding everything that is wrong for the breed. It infuriates me because, just as you say, just because some think it's right, and they are able to sell every puppy, doesn't mean it is right or good for the breed....

I think CM has done more good than harm. I could say the same thing about people that are positive positive positive, NO corrections....how many dogs are put down every day because cookies and clickers didn't work? How many owners get SO frustrated because their dog only listens with a cookie in front of his face, in their living room, and end up taking Fido to the pound because they "just can't take it anymore" because "he will NOT listen to me if we are outside, at the store, people are over, we walk by a dog...." the list goes on. ANY method of training has a caveat of people that do it wrong, refuse to try anything else, and either kill or give up the dog. That's why I think it's all about BALANCE and creating systems that are unique and fulfill the requirements of each individual dog. 

I've never used an ecollar, doesn't mean I say I never will. I don't know what my dog will need when he's fully mature and being proofed. He's only 13 weeks old, sky's the limit on what kind of training he'll need. I'm also in sport, so my dog is receiving a different level of foundation than a pet home. My point is everyone is different. Just don't think CM's method is the one getting dogs put down left and right in shelters...it's owners that can't handle their dogs and can't/won't use any corrections because of the crazy taboo pet people have put on them. 

I know just as many dogs given to my TD and her training partner that were "out of control" and "ready for the pound." NOT because of aggression necessarily, but because the cookie wasn't enough under high distraction, or they were "too hyper" or "didn't listen" etc...Once puppyhood is over it's over...and most* do it wrong...so then what???? That's the point that CM and most trainers have to step in. 

Yeah, it'd be great if everyone were consistent and clear during puppyhood, but most pet homes aren't. The trainers that suggest putting an aggressive dog down aren't the ones that use compulsion, they're the ones that refuse to use any corrections beyond what they are "comfortable with" and that's when the dog pays the price. Zero compulsion is great, and has it's place in most balanced training plans. Some dogs do not require more than a look, or a word. Some require more, especially under distraction. It's all about balance and the individual dog.

I also find it interesting that those that hate and despise CM are not those that work with working dogs, they are all mostly pet people that may dabble in some obedience training. The ones that say, "meh, he's done a lot for the pet community, more harm then good...there's a time and place...he's saved a lot of dogs" are the ones that are out in serious sports/work, working high drive, high energy dogs, dogs in competitive or real life stressful situations. Places where obedience and hardness is life and death or winning vs losing. Not many in those venues talk down on someone who is successfully rehabbing aggressive dogs...because, get this...they've seen and worked real aggression and real problems...they know it's no joke.


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## Bequavious

DaniFani said:


> I also find it interesting that those that hate and despise CM are not those that work with working dogs, they are all mostly pet people that may dabble in some obedience training. The ones that say, "meh, he's done a lot for the pet community, more harm then good...there's a time and place...he's saved a lot of dogs" are the ones that are out in serious sports/work, working high drive, high energy dogs, dogs in competitive or real life stressful situations. Places where obedience and hardness is life and death or winning vs losing. Not many in those venues talk down on someone who is successfully rehabbing aggressive dogs...because, get this...they've seen and worked real aggression and real problems...they know it's no joke.


But then the ones who work with working dogs probably don't see much of CM's effect do they? They spend most of their time around other serious dog people who know/are learning solid training techniques under good leadership, not Joe-schmoe who is coming desperate to a pet trainer because he doesn't have a clue and has a thoroughly messed up dog. Being a pet person or an obedience trainer should not be a put-down! Even CM is a pet person 

I don't think it's the people who are seriously trying to train their dogs that are getting the majority of dogs pts. Maybe they try to copy Ceaser and fail, maybe they try cookies and manage to mess that up, but they'll try something different. These are people that see well behaved dogs and are willing to work toward that goal. I think the majority of dogs that go to shelters were ignored more than anything else :/


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## Blanketback

Thanks for sharing your experience with the JRT, MadLab. It's not something I'd do, but then again when you're dealing with GSDs it's probably better not to, lol. I just let the FA dogs have their space and they seem to do very well as long as their personal space is respected. 

I'm also very chatty with my dogs, unlike your approach. I do use a "psst" to get attention but that's all it's used for, and it's followed up with a known command to interrupt what I'm anticipating - like if my dog is staring at the birds under the feeder and he seems like he's going to take a leap at them. Otherwise, I like using real words and phrases because I find it's much easier to communicate my message by including a dedicated tone into my words that I can't do with just a sound, and also adding different facial expressions and hand gestures. My dogs can understand me, and that's the main thing.


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## Stevenzachsmom

MadLab said:


> This actually works well on small dogs who are aggro and growling at big dogs.
> 
> Once dogs sniff each other tension between them is released. Until they sniff each other there can be a stand off.
> 
> It's like sniff each other and get over it.


It works on big dogs too. All her life, my GSD was very reactive to other dogs. This wasn't a problem until we got new neighbors behind us. They had a dog and my shepherd would get snarky at the fence. By then, she was about 12 or 13, so not so spry any more. 

The other dog was a young, female, high energy pitty mix. Last dog I would have "chosen" to introduce her to. The other dog was, however, very friendly. I turned my shepherd's butt toward the other dog at the fence. My girl stopped that crap. From that day forward, she greeted the other dog with noses at the fence and walked away.

Hey, it works. That's all I can say.


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## DaniFani

Bequavious said:


> But then the ones who work with working dogs probably don't see much of CM's effect do they? They spend most of their time around other serious dog people who know/are learning solid training techniques under good leadership, not Joe-schmoe who is coming desperate to a pet trainer because he doesn't have a clue and has a thoroughly messed up dog. Being a pet person or an obedience trainer should not be a put-down! Even CM is a pet person
> 
> I don't think it's the people who are seriously trying to train their dogs that are getting the majority of dogs pts. Maybe they try to copy Ceaser and fail, maybe they try cookies and manage to mess that up, but they'll try something different. These are people that see well behaved dogs and are willing to work toward that goal. I think the majority of dogs that go to shelters were ignored more than anything else :/
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually the several people I know that have been in the sport for over 15 years, all do some level of work training or rehabbing pet dogs. One owns his own training facility the others rehab and work with pet dogs from local shelters that the shelters can't handle. TD just rehabbed a terrible case of a 140 lb rottie mix that was awfully aggressive. So, they tend to see a LOT of problem pets. They are caused from allllll kinds of bad ideas, training, and home lives.

That wasn't my point though, my point was that any and every "program" can be used and abused. Doesn't mean the program is a failure or "bad." Every dog needs it's own adjusted "program," usually taking in multiple disciplines and theories. I don't know how else to word that.


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## Blanketback

Thanks Jan, there's another positive outcome from the forced butt-sniff technique. I wonder if it really is just the simple act of sniffing, or if it's something so horrible and violating (because I've seen some fights start with a sniff too) that maybe your dog just decided to fly under the radar from that day forward. And here she thought she was safe with the fence, lol!


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## madis

I like him. I think he does great work. The problem seems to be more about people imitating him and not having any idea what they are doing. His fame is a double edged sword. I don't necessarily believe the "pack behavior" thing about dominating the dogs, but the calm energy is definitely helpful. Victoria Stillwell is also a great trainer 


I will say that some people can never be an alpha, you can't teach that. 


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## Merciel

DaniFani said:


> The trainers that suggest putting an aggressive dog down aren't the ones that use compulsion, they're the ones that refuse to use any corrections beyond what they are "comfortable with" and that's when the dog pays the price.
> 
> The ones that say, "meh, he's done a lot for the pet community, more harm then good...there's a time and place...he's saved a lot of dogs" are the ones that are out in serious sports/work, working high drive, high energy dogs, dogs in competitive or real life stressful situations. Places where obedience and hardness is life and death or winning vs losing. Not many in those venues talk down on someone who is successfully rehabbing aggressive dogs...because, get this...they've seen and worked real aggression and real problems...they know it's no joke.


Neither of these things is entirely true.

I'm not real sure I have the energy or willingness to get into this discussion (I started to write a long post and then deleted it out of sheer exhaustion with my own SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET spazzery) but I did want to pick out both of those statements because I think they start with a kernel of truth and then overreach way past it. Reality is not quite that simple.


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## DaniFani

Merciel said:


> Neither of these things is entirely true.
> 
> I'm not real sure I have the energy or willingness to get into this discussion (I started to write a long post and then deleted it out of sheer exhaustion with my own SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET spazzery) but I did want to pick out both of those statements because I think they start with a kernel of truth and then overreach way past it. Reality is not quite that simple.


Sorry, don't waste your time. I was def over-generalizing. It was more of an over generalization to match other over generalizations....I know...terrible debating technique lol.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Many sport people I know do pet training on the side. I have yet to see anyone imitate CM and get anything worse then 0 response from their dog. Doing CM stuff incorrectly and doing clicker stuff incorrectly gets you about the same results.

This idea that a dog will be ruined by innapropriate corrections is pure garbage. I have seen some really soft dogs exposed to poorly timed compulsion and there was never any of the usual doom and gloom that people on here with little to no experience like to extoll. 
If anything incorrectly using compulsion with those rare truly hard dogs is a lot more dangerous. About as dangerous as not doing any..lol.


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## Merciel

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have yet to see anyone imitate CM and get anything worse then 0 response from their dog. Doing CM stuff incorrectly and doing clicker stuff incorrectly gets you about the same results.


We must be seeing some _really_ different dogs.

And I've definitely seen dogs ruined by heavy-handed methods. I've seen pet dogs who became fear biters and I've seen sport dogs who developed such negative associations with the ring and/or specific exercises that they couldn't trial anymore. I've seen promising field dogs ruined too; it's common enough that probably the number-one warning I hear from gun dog people is that the quickest way to ruin a good dog is to give it to an idiot who doesn't know how to use an e-collar right.

Putting hyperbole (and, for that matter, CM) aside, are you going to take the position that _never once in your life_ you've seen a dog ruined by misused compulsion? Because man, that is bananas.


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## boomer11

well any dummy with an ecollar can ruin any dog. all the sport trainers on here that people worship also use ecollars, not just cesar. if a beginner ipo person saw michael ellis use an ecollar and then used one incorrectly then yeah it would ruin that dog. i'm not sure why you think cesar is heavy handed? i dont see him putting a prong or ecollar on every dog and correcting them. he is using them as a tool like every other trainer out there. again people go around blaming cesar because people watch his show and try these things in real life without a trainer present. thats not his fault.


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## David Winners

boomer11 said:


> well any dummy with an ecollar can ruin any dog. all the sport trainers on here that people worship also use ecollars, not just cesar. if a beginner ipo person saw michael ellis use an ecollar and then used one incorrectly then yeah it would ruin that dog. i'm not sure why you think cesar is heavy handed? i dont see him putting a prong or ecollar on every dog and correcting them. he is using them as a tool like every other trainer out there. again people go around blaming cesar because people watch his show and try these things in real life without a trainer present. thats not his fault.


The main difference I see is that a trainer, you mentioned Michael Ellis, will release an instructional video and take the viewer through all the steps necessary to implement the training technique. They do this in multiple dogs in multiple stages of training. They also explain the potential pitfalls of the training and how to avoid them.

These things are covered in lecture and in practical exercises with novice handlers. There is real instruction going on.

Watching TDW doesn't provide instruction. It's like watching Michael Ellis work Pi. All you learn is what right looks like. Though this is valuable, the "how you get there" is far more vital, and TDW doesn't explain it's going on. Cesar reads the dog and adjusts on the fly. No newbie can do that. I'm sure he's made a million mistakes and learned from them before the camera was ever in the mix.

Go to a seminar. There is demo, lecture and instruction. One is pretty useless without the others.

JMHO

David Winners


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## GSD_Dakota

I do find many of his techniques unnecessary and sometimes abusive, but c'mon!
That guy needs some credit. He saved many dogs, but didn't fix other ones either. I don't think he should be hated on when he did actually rehabilitate dogs.


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## Merciel

boomer11 said:


> i'm not sure why you think cesar is heavy handed?


I didn't say that. In my previous post, I expressly said that I was putting CM aside. (Although, unsurprisingly, I _do_ tend to think that.)

What I was responding to, and probably should have quoted, was:



> This idea that a dog will be ruined by innapropriate corrections is pure garbage.


...which is frankly bananas to me, because I have seen a _lot_ of dogs ruined by inappropriate corrections and the ill-considered use of force. I see them in rescue all the time, and I also see them in contexts where you would hope people would know better.

Obedience is a little bit of a weird sport in that you have a lot of people trialing with fairly soft dogs (Shelties, Golden Retrievers, Papillons, and some lines of sporting Border Collies are popular examples). Despite the fact that their dogs are biddable and the exercises pretty easy to train by motivational methods, some handlers still use really heavy-handed methods to train and proof the exercises. There's a lot more old-school culture in competition obedience than there is in, say, agility or Rally.

And the dogs _do_ get damaged. Not all of them -- obviously enough people have enough success that these methods are still in use -- but enough that if you're around the scene for very long, you will see them. It's pretty depressing to watch a soft dog get "corrected" for shutting down out of stress. But it happens way too often.

One of my good friends has a soft, shy, anxious Standard Poodle who was shut down for months because her first comp OB instructor taught a Down by yanking the dog into position on a prong collar. If she had stayed with that club, her dog would absolutely have been ruined for the sport. As it was, she had to spend a long time and a lot of work undoing the damage wrought by one incident in one exercise.

I took another class with a different instructor that adopted a similar approach, and I had to drop out pretty quickly because even though there was no way I was going to put a prong collar on my dog or "correct" him for anything he did in there, just being in the _room_ with the other stressed dogs was damaging his performance. Just being there was poisoning his associations with the ring environment, and I wasn't about to ruin the years of work I've put into building my fearful dog's confidence by sticking around for more.

So, sure, there are plenty of dogs in the world who can take that level of force and are resilient enough to bounce back with no signs of damage at all. But there are also a whole lot who can't, and it's nuts to me that anybody could spend any amount of time in dogs and not see that.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Its not bananas its fact as far as Im concerned. Unless someone deliberately sets out with malice in their heart and beats their dog on a regular basis they are not going to ruin a decent or even soft dog. 
Some pokes, verbal or leash corrections really wont do anything irreparable, thats CM stuff. 
If the dog is garbage it will remain garbage, if it is good it will always be good. Nothing fundamental will change. There will be no irrepairable damage. 

If your talking about the preformance on the field and outward expression in training thats a different thing entirely I am talking about your typical pet dog.

The E Collar is more likely to cause issues if its being used to high, the dog is soft, and the conditioning wasnt put in. Usually its supersticious associations, these issues can be fixed especially if the dog is decent imo.


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## Gharrissc

I like him and thinl he's done a lot of great things for dogs. He can't be blamed for the idiots who watch 30 minutes of his show and think they are him. If he were hurting so many dogs, something would have been done about him a long time ago.


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## Bequavious

DaniFani said:


> Actually the several people I know that have been in the sport for over 15 years, all do some level of work training or rehabbing pet dogs. One owns his own training facility the others rehab and work with pet dogs from local shelters that the shelters can't handle. TD just rehabbed a terrible case of a 140 lb rottie mix that was awfully aggressive. So, they tend to see a LOT of problem pets. They are caused from allllll kinds of bad ideas, training, and home lives.
> 
> That wasn't my point though, my point was that any and every "program" can be used and abused. Doesn't mean the program is a failure or "bad." Every dog needs it's own adjusted "program," usually taking in multiple disciplines and theories. I don't know how else to word that.


So it's in the pet work that they deal with messed up dogs? So people who only do pet work probably run into similarly messed up dogs? So i dont think their opinions shouldn't be discounted on the basis that they're pet people. That was the only point I was trying to make in response to your comments (the rest was more in response to Selzer, but I haven't figured out multi quoting when I'm not at a computer yet lol  ).

I don't think CM's program is a failure. Obviously Cesar uses it himself with great success! I do think that some programs are easier to teach and apply than others, so while I respect Cesar and enjoy watching his show, I would probably recommend a different program for the first time dog owner


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## Blanketback

"Showing an animal strong leadership and giving it rules is not the same thing as instilling fear and punishing it in an abusive fashion. A quick, assertive touch is not the same thing as a strike. Creating respect is not the same thing as creating intimidation."
- taken from CM's _Be The Pack Leader_ pg.69

"You cannot use fear as a means of making an animal behave, it doesn't work. Showing an animal strong leadership and giving it rules is not the same thing as instilling fear and punishing it."
- taken from CM's _Cesar's Way_ pg. 218

There's alot more to CM than just his tv show. What you see on tv is what someone else thinks will make an entertaining show, to keep the ratings up. Reading his books might change a person's attitude on how they've perceived him. And he's the first to admit he isn't a 'dog trainer.'


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## Tiffseagles

The only thing I agree with him on is that many dogs need more exercise and to be taught rules/boundaries/whatever you want to call it. 

He does way too much suppression of behaviors than teaching appropriate behaviors, so I'm not a fan. I guess you could say I "hate him", though I'd use the word "dislike" or "strongly disagree with".


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## LaRen616

selzer said:


> *Did you see that the kid was bit in four separate places. Requiring medical care?* If that was a GSD people would put it down. That much worse that it _was _a spaniel. Spaniels were not bred for their aggression, guarding, protection traits.
> 
> *Why rehome such a dog? What the world does not need is a dog that bites multiple children. If you have a dog that bites a kid, and you try to work with it, manage it, train it, give it a life, and it bites another child, well, how many children should 1 dog bite before you set it free from its demons? I think that VS was right there, at least from the clip that we saw. *
> 
> *With all the dogs everywhere being put down just because there isn't space in shelters, why keep a child-biting repeat offender around?*
> 
> Do you really think CM does not have fails? He shows what he wants to show you. He shows his successes. His failures sometimes go and live with him. But does he really keep them all? Or does he put some of them down? Do we know?
> 
> I don't think they will advertise it.


I agree with you Sue, I think Victoria made the right decision. 

I've known several dogs that have not only bit one child/person but they went on to bite more kids/people. I have 3 scars on my arm from a Springer Spaniel biting me, I did nothing to the dog, infact I was petting a different dog when the Spaniel came over and bit me. The owner brushed it off and thought I teased the dog, a couple of months later it bit my dad, less than a year later it bit a child that lived down the street and he required stitches and the dog was finally put down. 

Why should they continue to get more chances? I mean it does depend on the situation, how serious was the dog bite, what did the kid do, why did the dog bite, etc.


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## MadLab

> *Why rehome such a dog?*


Maybe there is someone out there who understands a particular breed or dog and can properly train it or use it as a working dog.

Just because one family can't train a dog or brought it up in such a way that it attacks members of their family, doesn't mean some one else can't have success in rehabbing the dog or training it.

IMO people have to know the limits of their ability and give the dog a chance in a different environment or with a rescue.

The case Victoria Stilwell dealt with looked like a soft dog to me and maybe it didn't deserve to be euthanized. It might have been a good gun dog with the right person. There may be a spaniel rescue which could have found a good home for this dog. It is worth a try. I'm not pro no-kill but I do realize positive only method is not a total solution when trying to rehab problem dogs. I know other methods work. Corrections are pretty necessary in many cases.

People can underestimate dogs because they are small and cute. Working breeds will do better with people who understand a dogs needs always.

Look at this clip of VS. She says at 2'00 minutes in, after discussing 'heavy handed methods used on red zone aggressive cases'.


> positive reinforcement is a much safer method to use with those aggressive dogs and a much more successful method


And if it doesn't work, shoot the dog, says the positive only 'trainer'.


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## MadLab

Here's the link. Dialogue on aggression starts around 1'45


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## misslesleedavis1

So, in everyones experiance or opinions, a dog that bites out of sheer aggresions will bite again?..i have only known one dog to bite, he was not put into training and was adopted out into a family with small children, is this dog a ticking time bomb? i think he may be, but then again maybe not?


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## Packen

Haha, Cesar's got the dingbats riled up.


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## huntergreen

just gotta love any trainer that fix any problem, including red zone dogs, in 15 or twenty minutes.


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## Madisonmj97

I like him, he seems to know what he's doing.


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## Chip18

In the early days I was a lot like Cesar...but with shouting and arm failing! It worked with my BullMastiff/APBT...pretty sure he thought..this guys is crazy and I don't want to cross him!

I changed with my Boxer/Mix a harsh "SIT", shut him down,thought he was gonna cry??!!!

Positive only worked great with my Boxer girl and by the time I got to Rocky my GSD, I was forced to "think" and retool. 

Mostly what I got from Cesar is "calm" and "assertive" took a while to get the "calm" part but even when I first started and had my BullMastiff/APBT mix who I had an Evaluation done by a pro who deemed he Dominant but "not' aggressive.

He did pull on leash to a degree but he never went out of his mind rearing on hind legs at other dogs! I wasn't having that crap! And he knew it!

I got that from Cesar! And by the way the Stttt sound wonders wonders on Cats!  Doorway trained my cat and stops cat type craziness "like that! 
"


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## Chip18

MadLab said:


> Positive vs. Punitive Dog Training | Teacher's Pet With Victoria Stilwell - YouTube
> 
> Here's the link. Dialogue on aggression starts around 1'45


How do you get squirt cheese into a dogs mouth when his mouth is full of your other dogs skin and fur???


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## wyoung2153

I think he has equally good points as bad points. I am not a fan of how "easy" he portrays everything to be.. though I've really only worked with one dog.. lol. I also am not a fan of some of the physical things he does.. like pick the dog up off the ground by his collar until he stops flailing.. um well, I'd be flailing too if I was being choked out... just saying.


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## glowingtoadfly

Ever heard of the CM drinking game? Drink every time a dog shows a calming signal in response to a correction.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lets play another game. Take a drink everytime someone comments on this thread that doesnt know a thing about training.


BOTTOMS UP!


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## Madisonmj97

Orrrr do we?


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## boomer11

Let's play another drinking came. Take a shot for every dog he's saved....


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## Madisonmj97

That's what I'm saying.


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## trcy

I don't really use his training techniques. He was entertaining to watch. We would watch years ago. Is his show even on anymore?


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## glowingtoadfly

I'm sure everybody would end up... Heh... Blitzed by their own self righteous opinion. That is why he is such a controversial figure.


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## Madisonmj97

trcy said:


> I don't really use his training techniques. He was entertaining to watch. We would watch years ago. Is his show even on anymore?


He actually has aired a new premier called "Caesar 911" but I don't like it as much as his older ones tbh.


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## Baillif

Victoria Stilwell is clueless. I like how they ignore all but one operant conditioning quadrant even though they use two with regularity. Ignore the other two though they're evil. She couldn't train herself out of a wet paper bag.

She frames an argument like it's only dominance theory vs +R trainers and ignores anyone using actual operant conditioning science in their training.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> Victoria Stilwell is clueless. I like how they ignore all but one operant conditioning quadrant even though they use two with regularity. Ignore the other two though they're evil. She couldn't train herself out of a wet paper bag.


Victoria should write a book entitled "Overcomplicated and Unreliable Training that Makes you Feel GREAT!"

Perhaps a bit too long..


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## glowingtoadfly

The problem with dog training shows is that all is presented in a neat and tidy package, making everything palatable for the masses, grab your handkerchiefs, everything has been solved in fifteen minutes folks. The real, grueling work of rehabbing a dog is left out.


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## Pax8

glowingtoadfly said:


> The problem with dog training shows is that all is presented in a neat and tidy package, making everything palatable for the masses, grab your handkerchiefs, everything has been solved in fifteen minutes folks. The real, grueling work of rehabbing a dog is left out.


I'm pretty neutral about him. Don't like the dominance theory bull, but I do like his focus on exercise and confidence when dealing with a dog.

The problem I run into has more to do with the general effect of "miracle" dog training shows in general. Like you said, they leave out all the dirty work of actually rehabilitating an aggressive or fearful dog. I've had to do it more than once. The easiest took about six months and the most severe was never actually "rehabilitated" because it was not possible for him - he simply had to be managed. 

One of the most frustrating things about having to work as a trainer at a big box chain store is I deal with general pet owners that watch TDW and Stilwell's show on a daily basis. They think these methods are something they can learn in a half hour. I have had more than one person come to me with severely aggressive dogs wanting to pay me for an hour of training to "fix" their dog, not realizing that their dog needs serious work, often with a behaviorist, and that sometimes there are things that can't be "fixed", only managed. 

I do wish the dominance methods were downplayed in his show. I can't tell you how many pet owners have come to my classes constantly alpha rolling their puppies for mouthing or jumping up. Ugh, I had to refer one of my clients to a behaviorist because they had made their puppy so terrified of being handled. After about four months of work, I hear they're finally able to pet it normally without it curling up and howling or fear biting them.


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## David Winners

You want to watch a real dog training show, look up Stonnie Dennis on Youtube.


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## misslesleedavis1

I have said this before, cesar is an NLP genious, watch him closely then follow up with some neuro linguistics reading, if CM was not rehabbing dogs he would be on a cruise ship teaching balding fat men how to pick up hotties. Confidence confidence....confidence! !!!! 

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## ILGHAUS

David Winners said:


> You want to watch a real dog training show, look up Stonnie Dennis on Youtube.


David, that Stonnie is a hoot. I really laughed at his one taping where he was crawling up and down the steps with a bunch of pups talking to them in a high pitched voice and then a pig goes casually walking by.


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## misslesleedavis1

Also there is no denying he is good at rehabbing most dogs, but he does give people one tool that is so incredibly useful. I watched victoria Stillwell give advice over the phone to put a dog down, she certainly played into their guilt well then she sealed the deal by telling them what they ultimately wanted to do, thats not really a respectable thing to pull with someone in any circumstance thats just making it okay to fail and lazy on her part. 

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## Baillif

ILGHAUS said:


> David, that Stonnie is a hoot. I really laughed at his one taping where he was crawling up and down the steps with a bunch of pups talking to them in a high pitched voice and then a pig goes casually walking by.


That the one where he was screaming "oh little biters!" Over and over again?


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## Blitzkrieg1

David Winners said:


> You want to watch a real dog training show, look up Stonnie Dennis on Youtube.


 
Iv always liked his hat.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lets play another game. Take a drink everytime someone comments on this thread that doesnt know a thing about training.
> 
> 
> BOTTOMS UP!


***Stop with the snarky comments. If you can't find a way to say what you want to say without bashing other board members, keep your thoughts to yourself. That goes for everyone in this thread.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Im not bashing anyone I thought we were suggesting drinking games? Am I not allowed to do that? Someone else did. 
Was someone offended because they dont know anything about training? I thought everyone on here knew how to train.. Im confused..

For all those that have no clue how to train please accept my humble apologies.


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## David Winners

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Iv always liked his hat.


The true mark of a great trainer


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im not bashing anyone I thought we were suggesting drinking games? Am I not allowed to do that? Someone else did.
> Was someone offended because they dont know anything about training? I thought everyone on here knew how to train.. Im confused..
> 
> For all those that have no clue how to train please accept my humble apologies.


I wasn't offended. I figured it was just some goodnatured ribbing from someone with differing views, and responded in kind with the crack about being blitzed and selfrighteous.


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## Baillif

David Winners said:


> The true mark of a great trainer


And all this time I thought it was choice of athletic pants, bandana, or pony tail.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Dont forget the Euro trash club beats to your youtube clips. Stoney fails on that front..


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## Cassidy's Mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im not bashing anyone I thought we were suggesting drinking games? Am I not allowed to do that? Someone else did.
> Was someone offended because they dont know anything about training? I thought everyone on here knew how to train.. Im confused..
> 
> For all those that have no clue how to train please accept my humble apologies.


Seriously? You know exactly what I meant, but if you'd rather persist and get an official warning that can be arranged.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Should I blink?


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## Arlene/Archer

I'm in the don't much care about him camp. I think he's done a lot for dogs in general, I agree with him on exercise, boundaries and affection, though I find the dominance talk rather old school and am glad to read he has phased out the laughable and frankly dangerous 'Alpha roll'. 
Regarding training, I'd much rather watch someone like Tyler Muto, who deals with a lot of aggressive dogs and is open minded enough to realise a one size fits all approach does not work on dogs or people. V-Sitwell just doesn't do it for me, although I haven't watched enough of her shows to formulate an opinion of her training skills.


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## Arlene/Archer

Oh my gosh, I have just learned of Stonnie Dennis. Awesome.


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