# Are his hind legs normal?!



## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

I mean I get asked all the time and get some comments like "oh poor dog" but his vet didn't say anything he said he was perfectly healthy so...


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

For some reason, some show breeders have found it acceptable to make a puppy kangaroo his legs and have a back with the curve of a snail shell because they feel like it looks good while stacked.

They CAN live perfectly healthy lives but that's not something I feel should be bred for. But that's just me. I would think it causes severe discomfort later in life. (And it looks terrible)


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

He also has very weak pasterns in his front legs. People who breed dogs like this ought to be shot! 

Moderate exercise can strengthen his joints. Swimming or walking in sand would be the best way to go. 

What's his pedigree? American showline, right?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would consult an orthopedic vet. This poor pup looks in bad shape. Have you seen the parents?


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

My goodness! People who breed dogs to look like that don’t deserve to own them. Poor pup


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

NadDog24 said:


> My goodness! People who breed dogs to look like that don’t deserve to own them. Poor pup











What?! But don't you just think this looks so STRIKING despite the fact the dog is almost sitting down while standing up?








And just look at how GRACEFUL those movements look! Even in a still image you can just see them floating across the ground.

But sarcasm aside, I 100% agree. This can be considered perfectly healthy. But it's not good


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## poconoman (Dec 7, 2020)

No, not normal.

This makes me so angry. These 'breeders' don't give a carp about lives. Just money.😡


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

I’m honestly shocked your vet didn’t say anything about this. That puppy is seriously malformed.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Rabidwolfie said:


> What?! But don't you just think this looks so STRIKING despite the fact the dog is almost sitting down while standing up?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, that first dog has pretty decent structure. If he weren't in an extreme stack, he would look quite normal. I can show you worse...MUCH worse! Both pasterns and hocks of this dog are right down on the floor, yet he had just won a big ribbon!


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## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Rabidwolfie said:


> What?! But don't you just think this looks so STRIKING despite the fact the dog is almost sitting down while standing up?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They will do and say anything to make it seem like this is what the standard should be…I love the ‘this is just just a stack…you can make this dog stand ‘straight’ if you wanted to’

a friend of mine bought a puppy from a reputable breeder who breeds showline pups..:the parents are titled…the pup has really weak hocks and just looks so uncomfortable in the rear. My buddy was told by many showline breeders and owners, ‘it’s okay they are supposed to be awkward like that for a while he will grow into his wonky legs…showline’s take longer to balance out’ the poor pup struggled torun around…he has gotten better with exercise and age but he still has a wonky walk.


To the Op: that puppy needs help and exercise…do some uphill waking to strengthen this hocks….


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

tysonsingh said:


> I love the ‘this is just just a stack…you can make this dog stand ‘straight’ if you wanted to’


Actually, it's true for the first dog in Rabid's pictures, but NO amount of stacking is going to fix some of these dogs:

German showline - you often saw backs like this 20 or so years ago. It's from an ad that says 'nice female, 100% correct anatomy'. 










Even some of the German dogs are so over-angulated that their hocks go flat on the ground when trotting:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This is my idea of normal when bending down for a ball.
My dog is almost is almost 10.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MaxMommy34 said:


> I mean I get asked all the time and get some comments like "oh poor dog" but his vet didn't say anything he said he was perfectly healthy so...
> View attachment 575321


Do you have any actual video of your dog moving around?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

MaxMommy, please believe us when we say EXERCISE WILL HELP!

The breeder of my dog had a guy purchase two of her pups, and confine them to crates for 23 hours a day. Of course, he lied through his teeth about his plans for the dogs, or she never would have allowed him to take them.

When he was thrown in jail, she got the dogs back, and their pasterns were extremely weak, almost touching the ground.
With careful exercise, the pups' joint were soon back to normal.

Just don't overdo it. The bones are soft at this age, and too much work on a hard surface can cause damage. Swimming, walking uphill, or walking in sand are all excellent ways to strengthen joints and muscles without causing too much stress.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

I do but I can't upload it it says it exceeds the amount even though I trimmed it for only 10 sec


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> Do you have any actual video of your dog moving around?


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Yeah idk how to post the video


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Yeah idk how to post the video


If you have a gmail account, log onto YouTube with it. Once you post it there, copy the link and paste it in a post here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Exercise and proper nutrition. You don't want to overdo or under-do protein. But I am just saying what I have heard, I have not had a dog down on pasterns like this, so I don't know.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> If you have a gmail account, log onto YouTube with it. Once you post it there, copy the link and paste it in a post here.











Something is wrong with his back legs







youtube.com


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Something is wrong with his back legs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let me know if u can see it


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## Catrinka (Aug 6, 2020)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Let me know if u can see it


Change your setting from 'private' to public.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

tysonsingh said:


> They will do and say anything to make it seem like this is what the standard should be…I love the ‘this is just just a stack…you can make this dog stand ‘straight’ if you wanted to’
> 
> a friend of mine bought a puppy from a reputable breeder who breeds showline pups..:the parents are titled…the pup has really weak hocks and just looks so uncomfortable in the rear. My buddy was told by many showline breeders and owners, ‘it’s okay they are supposed to be awkward like that for a while he will grow into his wonky legs…showline’s take longer to balance out’ the poor pup struggled torun around…he has gotten better with exercise and age but he still has a wonky walk.
> 
> ...


I know he needs help. But the vet didn't ebe


Catrinka said:


> Change your setting from 'private' to public.


Oops sorry. Done


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Something is wrong with his back legs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your puppy has some issues from over angulation, including down pasterns. With good diet and exercise you should see some improvement. How much varies. You want a food around 22% protein. The back legs are much less of a worry than the front ones.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I’m sorry but you won’t get those pasterns anywhere close to normal. Yes they could possibly be improved some but this will always be an issue. 
In the meantime, do not allow pup to jump down on anything, do walks on sand and different soft surfaces.
What are you feeding?


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## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Something is wrong with his back legs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It isn’t just his back legs his front need work as well….do you walk this dog at all or does he stay up in the condo all day? What are you feeding him?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don’t even know if it is fair to blame this on asl breeders, I’ve never seen anything this .

if I were you, OP, I’d take this puppy to an orthopedic specialist or a vet specialty in rehab. The type of place that has underwater treadmill and the like. They would probably be the best to know what can and should be done.

ocasionally baby goats and baby horses are born with really weak ligaments. I’ve done one of each in therapeutic bandaging to keep from overextending the ligaments. My baby goat I vet wrapped inside a toilet paper roll and his ligaments did firm up and he had a normal life.

I don’t know if that’s possible for a dog but a rehab specialist would know


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Agree with thecowboysgirl. Have never seen anything this bad. I can't believe the vet would think this dog was normal. 
If he were mine, I'd be getting a referral to the nearest veterinary hospital with an orthopedic specialist.

Maybe there is a way the joints can be braced to help the ligaments. Have seen this done with various young animals on The Incredible Dr. Pol.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

He needs to see an orthopedic or rehab specialist. Where are you located? Sorry if you've posted this before and I missed it. It's possible that someone here may have a local referral for a vet practice that can help.

ETA: what is his diet?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am curious about his litter mates. OP, don't neuter him as he needs all his testosterone to help him develop to his potential.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

WIBackpacker said:


> He needs to see an orthopedic or rehab specialist. Where are you located? Sorry if you've posted this before and I missed it. It's possible that someone here may have a local referral for a vet practice that can help.
> 
> ETA: what is his diet?


He's eating the Rachel Ray food


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Saphire said:


> I’m sorry but you won’t get those pasterns anywhere close to normal. Yes they could possibly be improved some but this will always be an issue.
> In the meantime, do not allow pup to jump down on anything, do walks on sand and different soft surfaces.
> What are you feeding?


Rachel Ray food


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don’t even know if it is fair to blame this on asl breeders, I’ve never seen anything this .
> 
> if I were you, OP, I’d take this puppy to an orthopedic specialist or a vet specialty in rehab. The type of place that has underwater treadmill and the like. They would probably be the best to know what can and should be done.
> 
> ...


I'll look into that thank you


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> Your puppy has some issues from over angulation, including down pasterns. With good diet and exercise you should see some improvement. How much varies. You want a food around 22% protein. The back legs are much less of a worry than the front ones.


Thanks


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Have you got pet insurance?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Have seen dogs just like this at AKC shows and matches.....this is classic overangulation due to genetics - AKC showline German Shepherds.....

I don't know whether there are splints that can give him support - or you are just stuck with it the way it is.....I don't know how or what levels of nutrients/nutrition can help or make it worse. Maybe your vet sees alot of GSDs with this type of breeding and conformation.

Gotta feel bad for a pup that is this structurally deficient.

Lee


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

try contacting westside german shepherd rescue in los angeles.... there have been several young dogs surrendered to them over the last decade with similar conformation. i know that the dogs were all adopted out, but if they’ve received any follow up info... they may be able to offer some direction or insight.

like i said it’s been years and i wasn’t able to find the brothers that i was thinking of... but i’m pretty sure this was another of their pups. so sad.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This makes my guts hurt. A GSD should be a powerful, agile, graceful dog, to do work.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Where is Carmen when we need her?
OP, I just watched your video. I rescued for years and pulled some really awful bred dogs. With serious confirmation issues. That video made me nauseous. 
If your vet sees nothing wrong there then you need a new vet. 
Rachel ray food is not going to cut it. Get insurance before the new vet.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Where is Carmen when we need her?


From 2012


carmspack said:


> thank you all ----
> First of all, thanks for giving this dog a chance . She seems a little withdrawn in the picture - but I am sure that with some good food and good care she will come around and be a great family member.
> 
> These are not the worst downed pasterns that I have seen.
> ...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

carmspack said:


> okay , Nancy (Jocoyn) just reminded me in the GMO thread about soup bones. What an excellent way to get gelatin which is collagen and the proteoglycan matrix. This was talked about in Deep Nutrition and Primal Body , Primal Mind ( a paleo type diet book ).
> For any animal that has been off with a tender stomach or is dehydrated or you want to mix some extra nutrition into your kibble or meat mix , a bone- broth is excellent.
> This goes for human nutrition as well when consome and broth were offered as first foods on the road to recovery.
> 
> ...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Thanks, Sunflowers! That's great information!


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Dunkirk said:


> Have you got pet insurance?


Sadly I dont


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Fodder said:


> try contacting westside german shepherd rescue in los angeles.... there have been several young dogs surrendered to them over the last decade with similar conformation. i know that the dogs were all adopted out, but if they’ve received any follow up info... they may be able to offer some direction or insight.
> 
> like i said it’s been years and i wasn’t able to find the brothers that i was thinking of... but i’m pretty sure this was another of their pups. so sad.
> View attachment 575395


That’s how my dogs legs are. And basically there’s nothing I can do for him huh?


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## Maurie (Jun 10, 2021)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Yeah idk how to post the video





MaxMommy34 said:


> That’s how my dogs legs are. And basically there’s nothing I can do for him huh?


I think there were a lot of people here highly recommending certain types of exercise and diet to help with his legs. Take another look through the thread.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Also, dozens of old threads on this subject.









Search results for query: Downed pasterns







www.germanshepherds.com


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Maurie said:


> I think there were a lot of people here highly recommending certain types of exercise and diet to help with his legs. Take another look through the thread.


Yeah I wrote that b4 I wrote this


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Sunflowers said:


> Also, dozens of old threads on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank u


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MaxMommy34 said:


> That’s how my dogs legs are. And basically there’s nothing I can do for him huh?


I’m going to be the bad guy here and I certainly don’t want you to think I’m insensitive. The conformation of your dog is genetics and you cannot change that. There are things you can do to try and improve the issues but genetics are genetics. Have you spoken to the breeder about this? A reputable breeder will take back their puppies should there be serious issues but I also understand how quickly we fall in love with our dogs, the choice is yours. There will be arthritis down the road for sure, those pasterns will never come up to near normal and I suspect the over angulated rear legs may improve some with age but again, won’t be normal. There will be lifetime struggles and I’d advise against any highly physical sports as structural breakdown will most definitely happen.
I have a friend who’s dog was and still has downed pasterns not nearly as bad as your pup. She tried everything to improve with no good results. Linda Shaw used her dog as an example of the bell curve to breeding. He did wear splints for a time but it made movement even more difficult for him. He now has arthritis and meds manage his pain, he’s still a young dog.
This is him……



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1609110482510428


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Wow... I know it's a very hard thing I'm going through I bought him from Craigslist so I'm almost pretty sure the dude who sold him to me knew about this and won't take him back so yeah hard decisions to make here


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MaxMommy34 said:


> Wow... I know it's a very hard thing I'm going through I bought him from Craigslist so I'm almost pretty sure the dude who sold him to me knew about this and won't take him back so yeah hard decisions to make here


I’m really am so sorry you’re in this position. Do the best you can do to do good by him, crappy breeders really suck.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Was this dude the breeder?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think you have some tough choices to make. I hope that you put the dogs quality of life first, and I hope you now how heartbroken we all are seeing this. For you and your beautiful pup.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Yes they do. My heart can't even phantom the thought of putting him down or giving him away. But I also know my pockets won't be able to afford future operations/Meds? 😰


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

I


Sunflowers said:


> Was this dude the breeder?


I bought him om Craigslist I dont even think he was a breeder


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> I think you have some tough choices to make. I hope that you put the dogs quality of life first, and I hope you now how heartbroken we all are seeing this. For you and your beautiful pup.


Thanks


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, giving him away won't solve his problem and most likely he will be passed on to more people. I am sure you know that already. To put it plainly: I would prevent a life of misery, putting his quality of life first and save a depleted bank account of yours. You have been deceived and did him right to come here for advice. YOu could ask a rescue if they have a solution you can live with.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Thank you


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Please don’t take think about putting your pup out of any misery because that is advise given on a Internet forum until you speak to a veterinarian. It’s kind of scary some advise people give online for such a serious outcome. The only person you should speak to is a veterinarian who has experience with German shepherds and some even breed them and have a knowledge of nutrition. It is your responsibility to get the best advise you can get to make any decisions you need to make. There are no medical procedures that can of help here that I know and like others here are not experts even if experienced. Your pup has issues with structure but your goals would be a determine factor on the long term impact it would have on structure - did you plan on becoming an agility champion or herd sheep all day- because of you pups extremes this would effect your dogs structure more negatively more then the most basic wear and tear -these are questions you need to get answered. Many people here or I have not had direct experience with dog’s with extremes structures. There is mention of vitamin c , hill work , running on sand and large breed puppy food with the correct phosphorus and calcium amounts. I’m not sure how much would improve things but it’s sure worth a try. I have not seen reputable showlines breed dogs to these extremes nor would they sell a puppy on Craigslist, again do not make serious descions from anyone on the internet.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Your pup has issues with structure but your goals would be a determine factor on the long term impact it would have on structure - did you plan on becoming an agility champion or herd sheep all day- because of you pups extremes this would effect your dogs structure more negatively more then the most basic wear and tear -these are questions you need to get answered.


Not true. She needs to know that the the dog can live a fulfilled and pain free life. Just because we make our dogs submit to our desires does not make it right. These are stoic animals who want to please us. Anyone who has raised a dog with any long term health issues, myself included, can tell you that at some point you question if what you did was right for the dog. The answer is usually no.
OP the other thing you need to consider is the cost. Financially, emotionally and in time. Specialists, special diets, therapy, supplements and extra care all add up.
I am NOT promoting euthanasia! I am sympathizing and empathizing with a difficult road either way.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What I would do at this point is contact my local club and go out and talk to those people. They would have tons of experience with the breed, be able to eyeball him and give you a valuable opinion, and even recommend a reputable orthopedic veterinarian.
We can only guess on a forum like this, and making good recommendations based on a couple of pictures and a video just can’t be done.
If you post your location somebody could probably point you in the right direction.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am not advising euthanasia to start. But it's good to keep in mind as the last resort once everything else fails and after good communication with your vet.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I am not advising euthanasia to start. But it's good to keep in mind as the last resort once everything else fails and have good communication with your vet.


I wouldn’t talk about that just yet.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Thank u all 4 ur advice I appreciate it


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If you don’t have the finances to take him to a specialist then I don’t think it is a bad idea to see if a reputable local breed rescue would take him. They can sometimes fundraise huge amounts. He seems sweet. they might be able to put him in foster, fundraise for treatment while he is growing, and then place him in an appropriate home.

its worth a shot.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@sabismom The reason for my post was about was euthanasia was mentioned before the journey even began. The owner needs to be diligent in where she gets her questions answered and it’s not on the Internet- there is usually a process before any questions are answered and there should be no shortcuts. The way the dog responds, acts, willingness will often let you know what path you are on. Expense is a big part of any pet ownership and some most certainly cost much more which depending on many factors. A rescue was mentioned if expenses are an issue which just may be an option.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, quality of life is always a factor. A guy I used to know had a gorgeous red Irish setter, but the dog had severe hip dyspasia. What I remember most about this dog was seeing it lying on the grass, flat on its side, because that was the only way it could get comfortable. I don't receall how old the dog was - was a long time ago. 

The 14 1/2 year old dog I just put to sleep had a better quality of life in her last months than that dog! When I put her outside, she'd sniff around, eat grass, chase squirrels and bark a the neighbour's dog!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This pup’s quality life is not yet known. To be able to determine a decision for another’s animals life is a big responsibility and not done over the Internet.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

A number of people told me I should put Star down in her last months because of her incontincence. That decision should solely rest with the owner. For me, cleaning up poop in the house was no different from cleaning it up outside, something every dog owner has to do.

As long as I knew she had some quality of life, I was willing to do it. The vet assured me she wasn't in pain, and that was something I knew from watching her and knowing my dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wouldn't go to a vet for advice on nutrition. They'd put your dog on Purina or Science Diet. I do not trust vets to know more about the breed and problems that plague this breed than people on the forums. Vitamin C -- that is huge, and I didn't even think of it, but neither would a vet. I am sorry, vet techs and folks that put your faith in veterinarians over everything else, but we have to think about what knowledge base vets have to have. 

They have to know surgery and anesthesia. 
They need to know about viruses and vaccines.
They need to know about cancer and other diseases. 
They need to know the digestive system
Ears, nose, and throat, 
Hearts and respiratory and blood
bone structure and growth.
neonatal puppies through geriatric dogs
They need to know dogs
cats
fish
reptiles
birds
horses
cows
sheep
pigs. 

And then you have the hundreds of breeds and mixes of breeds when it comes to dogs. 

You want a vet to have expertise in all the areas, when if you were talking about humans, you would go to a surgeon, who would have an anesthesiologist. Your regular doctor can take care of the basic checks and immunizations and virus/diseases but they will most likely point you to an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a cardiologist, a pulmin-whatever, an oncologist, a geriatric doctor, a pediatrition, and so forth. And that is for just one species. 

In vet school, there is 1 class on nutrition, and that is created by and probably run by the people at purina. The reason vets blanch when people mention a raw diet is in part because half the people think a raw diet means throwing a dead chicken at the dog once a day, with or without feathers, but the other reason is because vets have not made nutrition of every species they serve their priority. They can't. Not unless they are a veterinarian specialist whose thing is nutrition. And they would starve because there are just not that many people willing to shell out for nutrition. And vets are pretty happy if the bag of food says 100% complete and balanced, or meets AAFCO guidelines. They will generally tell you that you will throw your dog's balance off if you deviate from the bag of kibble. 

I am not bashing on vets, but I know more than the average vet knows about some specifics with German Shepherds. And if that doesn't scare you, than you're hopeless. We have to be our dog's advocate, which means we have to know the right questions to ask at the vet and sometimes make suggestions, and sometimes deviate completely from what the vet says. I have saved dogs by doing this -- no doubt. Because we have to. 

And, we don't always go with what we want a dog for, sometimes we take the dog we have and decide what is best for the dog. We may have wanted a jogging companion, but we find we have a movie companion that needs to swim three times a week, and because the dog is a living being with a personality and because we have a heart, we can live with that.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are veterinarians that breed dogs are that heavily into dog sports and actually do know about nutrition. I worked for one many moons ago they did everything from a-z in their breed and excelled in what ever they did. People travels from all states to see her as she was heavily known and trusted in the health of the breed and had a lot of connections as well in the breed. Let’s not put all in veterinarians in a box and yes she fed raw. Going to a orthopedic vet as was suggested a good idea and should be one of people you consider especially if the dog has physical issues.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Jenny720 have you ever had a dog with health issues? Actual health issues, not age or injury.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jenny720 said:


> There are veterinarians that breed dogs are that heavily into dog sports and actually do know about nutrition. I worked for one many moons ago they did everything from a-z in their breed and excelled in what ever they did. People travels from all states to see her as she was heavily known and trusted in the health of the breed and had a lot of connections as well in the breed. Let’s not put all in veterinarians in a box and yes she fed raw. Going to a orthopedic vet as was suggested a good idea and should be one of people you consider especially if the dog has physical issues.


Jenny, the ONLY way you can know that you have found a great vet like you are talking about is if you know enough veterinary medicine to know when they are handing you a line. Like an ER doctor, vets are versed in making you feel confidence in them. Nobody wants to come in with their dog bloating or bleeding out to have their vet saying, "well, it could be... or, well, I've really never seen anything like this before, so..." Veterinarians, especially around here, because it is a relatively poor area, do what they think it is, what it probably would be 85% or better of the time, and if that doesn't work, they dig deeper. They know how to make you feel confident in them, or people wouldn't go back. But that doesn't mean you should just trust them. I know a vet who is 2.5 hours away that I would trust as you are trusting your vet, and yes he has books and videos out and everyone who is anyone in the breed around here has had their dog to him. Of course you don't paint all vets alike. But, because of spay-neuter campaign success, the vets who are out there today simply do not see enough bitches in whelp to be experts in whelping problems anymore. The vet techs at my clinic did not know what a 2 day old pup's temperature should be, and they don't even have an incubator anymore. If you have pregnancy-related issues, and you don't have a repro-vet, call another breeder if you have problems whelping-related. And it is not just pregnancy, it's nutrition, and it can be other problems that our breed is more prone to, that they just do not see that often. To know that your vet is super, you have to know a lot. Otherwise, you just have to look into things, ask people who have your breed, and educate yourself enough to make that determination when your dog is in trouble. Driving away from your vet's practice and driving to anothers may be something you have to do.

Once 60 minutes took a dog from a shelter to a number of different vets. 3 different vets, 3 different diagnoses, 3 different price ranges of what it was going to cost to fix the dog. And that didn't have anything to do with reproduction. Right now, vets have to gain my confidence, they do not have to lose my confidence by something they have done that I know about. Because at the end of the day, I am the one that has to live with the mistakes. I see the veterinarian's role in my dogs' healthcare as a partnership with me, and I have the final say. I can go outside of the partnership if it makes sense to me. And they may have been right more often than wrong. But when being wrong will lose you dogs, then I think you get what I am saying.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

I empathize, as I know the grief, shock and disappointment that comes with major health issues. I suggest you make an intellectual, not an emotional decision after getting as much information and expert advise as possible. I suggest you work out how much you can afford on your budget for medical and health expenses. 

Nitro has had long term health issues, very conservatively he costs $100 to $150 a week with his dietary requirements and medications. They enable him to have a good quality of life, he's a contented, happy dog. My pet insurance excess on each claim was raised form $50 to $150 earlier this year. I call him my 'luxury item'.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> @Jenny720 have you ever had a dog with health issues? Actual health issues, not age or injury.


Yes I have I had a quite a few dogs growing up so you must imagine that some had some health issues. Yes I had a American Eskimo with a bum leg and I had a King Charles and that had heart issues just to name the most recent ones. I had to make many tough decisions many times it comes with having animals. With any dog I recommend health insurance but as pet’s age it gets quite pricey for a reason as it’s very common to run into health issues with age. I also had a horse not with major health issues but limited in his capabilities and there is all types of management in that realm depending on what the goals are and they all have something going on.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@selzer it’s all the same for choosing a doctor for yourself or any type of specialty whether it be breeders , trainers , Some are just awful and some are true gems. It also takes some bad experiences to just to know what is out there to learn what to look for.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jenny720 said:


> @selzer it’s all the same for choosing a doctor for yourself or any type of specialty whether it be breeders , trainers , Some are just awful and some are true gems. It also takes some bad experiences to just to know what is out there to learn what to look for.


Maybe. But vets are expected to be jacks of all trades, whereas doctors are a lot quicker to send you to a specialist. I have had a LOT of dogs over the last 20-25 years, and I have had my vet's office refer me elsewhere exactly 1 time. I have gone elsewhere on my own for whatever reason. There is only 1 of me, and my doctor has sent me to a cardiologist and to the asthma guy, and a urinologist once, and probably others I cant remember, and I went to others on my own. Perhaps my point is, don't wait for your vet to suggest a second opinion or a specialist, because that call may never come. Going to someone whose main focus over years of experience in the problem you are dealing with, can cost more initially but may save you money in the long run, if there is someone available.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Having had dogs with specific issues And Having dealt with specialty doctors does not mean they are worthy either you really need to do your homework where ever you go.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think your regular vet is like your primary care provider. When they need to, they refer you to nutritionists, and specialties in other areas. I've had dogs and a horse with chronic health problems and all of them went to referral visits with specialists. My horse I took to a major teaching hospital where he was gone over by a team. This was after I had exhausted all the local vets and no one could diagnose or treat him.

I've taken two dogs to the referral hospital. The one had a hemangio bleed. Our regular vet X rayed him and said "I think this could be an internal bleed" and referred us first for an abdominal ultrasound and then from there we were referred again to the big hospital to discuss surgery and prognosis. Which after a CT and they could see just how many vital things the tumor was attached to we opted not to operate so he could have whatever time he had left in peace. He had a really good month and then we let him go.

Sometimes the more generalized vets have great instincts and tons of experience and they are just right on. Sometimes you really need the specialist. My girl went up for an endoscopy and treatment for what was becoming life threatening GI problems. She'd been treated by multiple local vets and they had exhausted everything they knew how to do and she was declining rapidly. We went to internal medicine and they started her on a new course of treatment. Her specialist was supportive of my keeping her on a real food diet and not hydrolyzed kibble or other RX diet.

She had a few good years there that she would not have had if not for this treatment. She was 9 when we went up there I think, and she lived to be 13. I think she wouldn't have made it past 10 if not for that treatment.

So, I don't think it's fair to bash vets, especially general practice vets. They aren't specialists. Go to the specialist.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So, I don't think it's fair to bash vets, especially general practice vets. They aren't specialists. Go to the specialist.


Absolutely. 

When Sage was ill with discospondylitis, my regular vet called around, and then referred her to an internal specialist vet that he had talked with. 

When Carly’s eye went all crazy, my regular vet examined her, and then referred her to an eye specialist. I took her back and forth between the two vets, and we all decide the eye vet should do the surgery to remove her eye. 

When my IG, Zelda, broke her foot, my regular vet referred her to the orthopedic vet, who then treated her. When she started going blind at 3 years old from progressive retinal atrophy, my regular vet referred me to the eye vet, who charted her progress over the years. 

Looking at the photo of the OP’s puppy, he looks over-angulated and loosely ligmented. Can’t do anything about the over-angulation, and I don’t know what could help the loose ligaments other than exercise, but that’s just a guess.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I find it a lot easier to find good specialists in veterinarian medicine versus human medicine a huge difference. There are veterinary practices that offer a number of specialists under one roof. Some have a lot more experience then others and have been around for a long long time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Maybe. But vets are expected to be jacks of all trades, whereas doctors are a lot quicker to send you to a specialist. I have had a LOT of dogs over the last 20-25 years, and I have had my vet's office refer me elsewhere exactly 1 time. I have gone elsewhere on my own for whatever reason. There is only 1 of me, and my doctor has sent me to a cardiologist and to the asthma guy, and a urinologist once, and probably others I cant remember, and I went to others on my own. Perhaps my point is, don't wait for your vet to suggest a second opinion or a specialist, because that call may never come. Going to someone whose main focus over years of experience in the problem you are dealing with, can cost more initially but may save you money in the long run, if there is someone available.


Vets respond to what people want. A lot of people are just not going to drive 2.5hr and pay three thousand dollars to see if their dying mutt dog can be saved. I’ve actually had this conversation with one of my vets. They are not going to make the same recommendation to me as they will to the next person thru the door with the exact same problem because I will drive all that way and pay the money.

I’ve also asked for referrals before when my local vet was kind of like, I don’t know, this is the best we can do. A dropped like $500 bucks on a derm referral for my 13y/o when I knew I was only doing palliative care and she was almost out of time but it was TOTALLY worth it because her last few months she did not suffer with that chronic ear on top of everything else

Maybe they peg you wrong as a certain type of person, which is why sometimes you have to ask and/or, get a second opinion.


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Jenny720 said:


> This pup’s quality life is not yet known. To be able to determine a decision for another’s animals life is a big responsibility and not done over the Internet.


I’m not basing any decision over any answer given here I just needed to know if it was normal or not and thanks to the answers i am now aware that there was such thing as “down pasterns”


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

And I appreciate all the advice


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## MaxMommy34 (Apr 26, 2021)

Sunflowers said:


> IWhat I would do at this point is contact my local club and go out and talk to those people. They would have tons of experience with the breed, be able to eyeball him and give you a valuable opinion, and even recommend a reputable orthopedic veterinarian.
> We can only guess on a forum like this, and making good recommendations based on a couple of pictures and a video just can’t be done.
> If you post your location somebody could probably point you in the right direction.


. 

I’m in Los Angeles


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## Torr (Jun 29, 2021)

How is Bruno doing now? Any better than before?


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

the puppy's legs are malformed-this has nothing to do with his breeding-get him to a REAL vet to help strengthen up his legs while puppy is still young and growing.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

brittanyS said:


> I’m honestly shocked your vet didn’t say anything about this. That puppy is seriously malformed.


I haven't met ONE vet that will comment on most anything unless you force him to look and comment. Most vets ignore for ex. a cocker spaniel whose coat was so matted he couldn't even walk! Vet said nothing. They only respond to your reason for being there. If you don't mention it they won't either.


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## Maurie (Jun 10, 2021)

Carpal Subluxation and Weak Pasterns—two Different Conditions? | SIRIUS DOG


There are two pastern disorders that are often confused until one actually has seen the "extreme" type. The severity of "weak-by-genetic-neglect" wrists seen in many German Shepherds can approach the other type at first impression. In addition to these two, there are cases of retained cartilage...




siriusdog.com


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MaxMommy34 said:


> I’m not basing any decision over any answer given here I just needed to know if it was normal or not and thanks to the answers i am now aware that there was such thing as “down pasterns”


Im glad you got some hands on advise. People giving advise as serious as suggesting putting a puppy out of it misery need to realize that they have no idea how the person receiving that advise will take it and what they themselves would do should not reflect what someone may consider doing at such a early point in time.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Maurie said:


> Carpal Subluxation and Weak Pasterns—two Different Conditions? | SIRIUS DOG
> 
> 
> There are two pastern disorders that are often confused until one actually has seen the "extreme" type. The severity of "weak-by-genetic-neglect" wrists seen in many German Shepherds can approach the other type at first impression. In addition to these two, there are cases of retained cartilage...
> ...


Great article, Maurie! Thank you! Fred Lanting has wonderful knowledge about German sheperds, and has written a book on Canine Orthopedics. He's also an authority on hip dysplasia.


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## Tee (Dec 5, 2019)

poconoman said:


> No, not normal.
> 
> This makes me so angry. These 'breeders' don't give a carp about lives. Just money.😡


 It is the same with my dog… we got him from a Facebook ad because the people needed to re home him… when we saw him we were shocked but he has gained about 20 pounds since we got him and although his legs look terrible he is still a lovely dog


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## Davycc (Jun 16, 2021)

Tee said:


> It is the same with my dog… we got him from a Facebook ad because the people needed to re home him… when we saw him we were shocked but he has gained about 20 pounds since we got him and although his legs look terrible he is still a lovely dog


Enjoy your dog and give him all that love


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