# Three distinct lines of GSD?



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

I have been looking at and visiting various kennels and breeders for quite a while now in pursuit of my future GSD. I still have not ruled out any particular line. One of the things I've found that I never imagined are there are three distinct lines of GSDs (some would indicate even more divisions). I have noticed non-ASL breeders to be particularly critical of ASL dogs. Personally, I've seen great dogs from each line so far.

I started my search with a set of questions and now - as I get closer to pinning down my decision - have additional questions resulting from my many visits:

Is there a good web site or publication that defines where / when exactly the divergence began to take place for the GSD: West German Show Lines (WGSL), American Show Lines (ASL), and working lines (working lines seem to even be subdivided further and seem to contain the greatest genetic diversity?)?

What are some major dog names to look for in a pedigree when shopping for each type? What do they bring to the line?

If WGSL dogs are supposed to be genetically "healthier" than ASL dogs, why is it WGSL breeders only seem to limit the gene pool to a certain color (black and red) when ASL dogs are seen with many color combinations (black and tan, bi-color, black, etc...)?

Is there a difference in the average lifespan of each line of dog? Has anyone kept this kind of info?

Additionally, some breeders of non-ASL type dogs would lead you to believe the ASL dog is physically and mentally incapable of certain tasks. I thought the ASL breeders (at least in the US) had stopped with the extreme back ends in the 90s? What is it that is a limiting factor for the ASL dogs with regard to performance in IPO, herding, obedience, agility, tracking, etc...? Are there any ASL dogs that have competed in IPO trials? If so, do the judges even give them a chance or do politics keep them from titles?

Further, can a working line dog really effectively function as a household companion when not training/working? Or are they all go-go-go every waking hour? 

I really don't want people to start bashing any particular line as a result of this post, but I am looking for people to point me in a direction of objective facts or examples rather than rumors backing up the opinion to help me make my decision.

I really appreciate any information you have to offer.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

There is literally only a tiny handful of people on this forum that are ASL people (I'm one) so you aren't going to get any positive feedback about them from most of the members. 

Lifespan? Twelve years old seems average for the ASL dogs that belong to my friends. 

Obedience, rally, agility, tracking and herding are common activities among my ASL friends. Littermate to my dog Russell is a SAR dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ASL breeders are not using testing their dogs in schutzhund, for the most part. I think it is safe to say that ASL dogs and whites are more likely to be titled in conformation, AKC/UKC performance events. Though my white dog's sire had a BH and ScHH tracking title, as well as AKC tracking.

My thing is: if you want a dog to do a certain endeavor: sport, work, ect, look for breeders whose dogs are doing that. I never had any plan to do schutzhund so that wasn't a factor for me. I didn't want a working line this time so that was a factor.

If you wanted to do conformation shows you should probably buy a pup from conformation titled parents.

If you wanted to do schutzhund then look for a breeder proving their dogs are suited for it.

My dog's breeder seems to produce super noses, my dog has one and her dogs are titling like crazy in tracking and nosework. I tried tracking on a whim and we got addicted.

There are a lot of people on here very devoted to working line dogs. My opinion is that every line, every individual even, has its strengths, weaknesses, pros and cons. The thing is for you to decide what you personally like and want and find the breeder that most closely matches that.

Just don't fall into the trap of: I just want a pet so I don't need any fancy titles at the breeder. If your breeder is proving their dogs in some venue, they know more about the dogs and what their temperament is, and so do you. This is critical for the pet just like a competition or working dog. 

I have met great dogs from all 3 lines. I think finding an excellent breeder is potentially more important than the line you choose, because a sub part breeder of any line may provide you with a poor match or a dog that just isn't great, period.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ubercake asks
"Is there a good web site or publication that defines where / when exactly the divergence began to take place for the GSD: West German Show Lines (WGSL), American Show Lines (ASL), and working lines (working lines seem to even be subdivided further and seem to contain the greatest genetic diversity?)?

answer -- right here -- this forum. Start with Iceberg Breeders http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

ask any questions 

ubercake asks
" I have noticed non-ASL breeders to be particularly critical of ASL dogs"

answer-- there are some American bred lines that I would take before a WGSL.
I am considering health - (stenosis ) conformation , temperament . Of course you have
to be critical and selective.

When I see a WGSL at it's extreme - like at the BSZS - I think of the goldfish . Yup goldfish.
Descended from a natural carp -- "common" goldfish and then you have the fancy goldfish 

as to other questions -- any dog , any "line" can join a club and compete.
Why not ? Just be fair to your dog . Don't force it to endure something it is not able to do.
There are lots of dogs "forced" through training to get a title to enable it to be bred . You see the
dog having difficulty -- that is unfair and wrong on so many planes . Wrong for the dog -- wrong for the
breed - because that dog now gets bred.

anyway what is important is what you want to participate in , what you expect .


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## SamsontheGSD (Dec 23, 2016)

I've had a WGSL and currently have an ASL whose pedigree shows quite a few herding and rally titles. Quite frankly I think there are just as many differences across a litter of pups from either as there are generalized differences between the 2 lines. My ASL is a little more chilled out than my WGSL, but he was also more chilled out than most of his litter mates. The WGSL was dog reactive while on a leash and the ASL is not. The ASL is more reactive toward a stranger in his house or yard than the WGSL. The ASL thinks he is a lap dog and the WGSL never wanted in our lap. The ASL seems to have a better nose, or at least rely more heavily on scent. Both were super easy to train, incredibly smart, and good dogs.

See, there are differences in personality but I'm not sure that it's as much WGSL vs ASL as it is individuality. Make no mistake, both act and behave like a shepherd and there are a lot more similarities than differences. 

I agree with the poster that said to get a dog whose parents do wbat you're looking to do. Whether it's obedience, ipo, rally, tracking, etc. A good breeder will help match you to the perfect puppy too.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have met great dogs from all 3 lines. I think finding an excellent breeder is potentially more important than the line you choose, because a sub part breeder of any line may provide you with a poor match or a dog that just isn't great, period.


I don't have a lot of time to respond, but I just wanted to say that I agree with what Cowboysgirl said. Whatever line you choose, I think it is important to choose a responsible breeder who cares about producing dogs with good health and stable temperaments, and who works and/or titles their dogs in one or multiple venues. 

I'm only a pet-owner so I don't have the experience of a trainer or a breeder who works with dozens of dogs or more. But I've owned a working line GSD, a WGSL, and a white shepherd. They have all been (and are) wonderful companions.

My working line dog lived to be around 9 years old. He had a serious temperament, was very loyal, intelligent, and active, could be intense but had a good off-switch; he was more suspicious of people than I would have liked, and he tended to be dog-reactive, but that improved with lots of work. He lived peacefully with our cats, small dogs, rabbit, and parrot. Although he was the most challenging of my GSDs, we had a tremendous bond, and I will always miss him. The only health problem he had was several bouts of pano while growing up (and Lyme disease, tick-borne).

My WGSL is very similar to the working line dog I had in terms of intelligence, loyalty, and energy. He is less serious, very much a goofball, especially as a youngster. He is very stable and non-reactive in public, and he is wonderful with my newborn and toddler. In fact, he is the only dog I've ever had, GSD or non-GSD, that I sometimes allow polite children to pet while out on walks (I tend to be overly cautious). I think he could participate to some extent in IPO, though if that was my ambition, I would have chosen a working line. His only health issue so far has been a sprained elbow.

My white shepherd is goofy, smart, and athletic. He is softer and more sensitive than my WGSL and working line GSD, which makes him easy to train. A stern tone of voice is usually enough to make him lower his ears and stop whatever he is doing. I wish he was more courageous, but he is getting more confident with age. I think he would be good at tracking, herding, or agility. He would not be a candidate for IPO or protection work. He's had no health issues yet, and is great with my kids, and in public. 

I am fortunate to have had wonderful dogs from three very different lines. Whichever line you choose, I think choosing the right breeder is important, as well as providing the puppy with boundaries, training, and mental and physical exercise.


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## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

sebrench said:


> ...I am fortunate to have had wonderful dogs from three very different lines. ...


This is a unique perspective not everyone shares. I appreciate the information. Thank you.


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## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

SamsontheGSD said:


> ...
> 
> I agree with the poster that said to get a dog whose parents do wbat you're looking to do. Whether it's obedience, ipo, rally, tracking, etc. A good breeder will help match you to the perfect puppy too.
> 
> ...


You also have a unique view owning two types of GSDs. Good info. Thanks.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ubercake said:


> You also have a unique view owning two types of GSDs. Good info. Thanks.


The only exception to this is if you were to be thinking "Well, I just want a pet, so I'll just buy a puppy from someone who bred their two pets together and says they are great pets"

You probably know that's not what anyone meant, but just in case.

My personal dogs have consisted of two working lines, 1 rescue of undetermined origin, my best guess being 80-90% white shepherd with a dash of lab or mutt, and 1 AKC white.

I've either worked with or closely known a couple of WGSL and a bunch of BYB. Two WGSL that I can think of were both lovely dogs, probably anyone would be thrilled with either as a pet. 

All of my personal GSDs were/are great dogs. Both of the non working lines were easier to live with, more mellow, more willing to lay around the house sometimes. Someone else described their white as ears back at a harsh tone and super easy to deal with, I think that describes my white very well. They each have their strengths...I love my working line girl to pieces, more than I can say, but sometimes she is a handful and not that fun to deal with. There are some things I don't like about her, some things I don't like about my white, but I think they're both terrific dogs. If you're not a firm person willing and able to put your foot down with a somewhat tenacious dog, you might be better suited with a white...some ASLs are probably similar in temperament.

Literally when my white puppy was growing up just about the only discipline he required was "no, no, puppy". He is just such a little do gooder. Wants so much to please. Tries unbelievably hard to figure out and do what I want him to do. Not as fearless as my working line. She seemed to have been born ready to jump through hoops of fire. He has not yet not succeeded at anything I asked him to do--he may need a little time to work up to certain things but the willingness is there. So, that's the best description I can give.

If you do get a show line dog, the only other thing I would recommend would be to try and find a breeder who is conscious of extremes in conformation and trying to avoid it. This was something that drew me to whites, as they are not yet at least, suffering from the extremes of the ASL and WGSL.


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## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The only exception to this is if you were to be thinking "Well, I just want a pet, so I'll just buy a puppy from someone who bred their two pets together and says they are great pets"
> 
> You probably know that's not what anyone meant, but just in case.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this information.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I started with a West German Show Line and then got a Working Line. Have never had an American Line, and don't care to ever have one. Love my working line dogs. Right now, I have 3 working line females in the house, laying around snoozing. They have off switches, that turn on when we are ready to do anything. I agree with the comment of figure out what you want to do with your pup, and then look to breeders who's dogs are geared to that type of activity. Mine all happen to be registered Therapy Dogs, and we make visits to several nursing homes, elementary schools, jail, library, and other groups as requested. Each one could easily do Schutzhund, and I do start them in the basics of each phase when young. I just don't have the access or physical ability to proceed on up to titles in that venue, so I opted to do AKC events. I am sure that you will find the right pup, if you take the time to research, ask questions, and get lots of references, before you make a decision. Good Luck!!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Like a few other people on this board, I am interested in GSD breed history. Here's a quote from Fred Lanting about the split:



> 1967 marked the biggest pot-hole and detour in the road the GSD had been traveling. In the USA, character was being ignored. The (U.S.) GSDCA’s Grand Victor of 1966 (Yoncalla’s Mike) and 1968 (Yoncalla’s Mike) produced a large percentage of “spooky” offspring. The 1967 Grand Victor (Lance of Fran-Jo) also had a temperament problem and passed it along, notably to such weak dogs as his son the 1971 Grand Victor (Mannix of Fran-Jo), as well as structural problems that became intensified due to unwise excessive linebreeding on him. One of the last German Siegers with really super breed character was 1967’s Bodo Lierberg, and he was passed over when he only got as far as Winners Dog (the chief non-champion class) at the American National Specialty that same year. That decision irrevocably skewed the course of the breed in the United States and Canada. After 1967, emphasis in Germany increasingly favored the exciting, driving gait over courage, and several dogs of questionable character strength (or at least, poor character in a large number of offspring) were rewarded with high placings, even Sieger, such as one notable choice in the mid-1990s The gap was widening rapidly between working-dog and show-dog type...


Bodo v. Lierberg was a litter brother to Bernd, who can be found in just about every working line pedigree. Bodo was also Dutch, Belgian and German Sieger for the year 1967, but his bloodlines were pretty much ignored once he was imported to North America. :frown2:


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