# I can't take it anymore!!!!



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Seriously. I can't. I just can't. I have absolutely come to HATE the word "sloped". Even when not applied to GSDs, the word sends me into white hot fits of rage.

People...STRAIGHT and SLOPED *are not mutually exclusive*!! Straight does NOT mean parallel to the floor! It means exactly as it sounds! Straight = without curve, dip, bend, etc.

Look! Here's Wesson, who shows a *straight back* in both pictures. The back is not the same as the whole top line, but I do suppose people are talking about the whole top line when describing the so called "straight back" 










In the first picture, her top line is diagonal towards the ground. It's still straight. The second picture that so many people claim as the "straight back" is the SAME animal. All that changed is how she's standing. Her back never stops being straight because of how she stands. What changes is the angle of her top line in relation to the ground.

I know this seems like a silly rant, but I just couldn't take it anymore. I swear I'm about to have my eye start twitching, and I have enough twitching problems already


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I hear you! Drives me out of my mind too. 

"I definitely don't want one of those sloped dogs". ARGHHHH


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

semantics --- and lay people who know nothing about dogs and conformation - just that they do not like the AKC show ring "look" that they see on TV on televised dog shows....they don't go into details like the longer stifle and more angulation of stifle and lower leg...they just don't like the look and that is how they express it...

You KNOW what they mean - they don't like what you like so it annoys you more than people not into the show ring....getting defensive because it is technically incorrect semantics does not change that many many people out there - non GSD people do not find the ASL as attractive 

Lee


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> they don't like what you like so it annoys you more than people not into the show ring


No, Lee, improper terminology annoys me. Especially when they LOVE my dogs one second, and then ask why the same dog is "crippled" later.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Everybody has their preferences, and that is fine. But when people judge on a single picture and haven't even MET that kind of animal or seen it not set up and then use improper terminology to describe it, that bothers me.

If people contact me and I don't have the kind of dog they thought I did, I help them find one that is appropriate.

We harp all the time on people doing their research and learning, but I guess that only applies if you're die hard pro working lines. Doesn't matter if people learn more about another style and then make an informed decision.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Yeah, I always cringe for you and dogfaeries whenever that happens. Especially when dogfaeries posts a pic of her dog as an example of a straight back and the difference a stack can make...and then gets some crumby comment about her personal dog by someone that doesn't know anything.

It's usually by people who want the "old fashioned straight back" or the "I want a *german* show line, NOT the american roach/slope." Which is funny because, isn't the roached back more prevalent in the german showline?? I know nothing about conformation, unless it's super obvious, I can't tell.

FYI, Xeph did you know your website is down? At least is "can't be found" in my Chrome browser. May just be my end though.


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## Tom888 (Nov 18, 2012)

You are right, sloped and straight are not mutually exclusive. The slope is a property of a line.

" the slope or gradient of a line is a number that describes both the direction and the steepness of the line." - says the mathematical definition 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slope


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

These are people who know nothing about breed conformation just trying to state their opinion of extreme dislike for the American/Canadian showlines, they see the angulation created by the stack and used in the show rings and that is all they see or care about, so they often comment that they "don't want a crippled dog and want a dog with a straight back"... it's just a lack of knowledge... you can't blame them considering the ridiculous misinformation being spread by people about the German Shepherd dog.

Don't stress... direct them to correct information and carry on. Not worth getting so upset over.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Xeph said:


> We harp all the time on people doing their research and learning, but I guess that only applies if you're die hard pro working lines. Doesn't matter if people learn more about another style and then make an informed decision.



your post is on a pet peeve....being a die hard one type or another has nothing to do with your pet peeve! My POINT is you know what they are talking about! I can't begin to count the number of people who have walked up to me when I have shown AKC OB and asked where they can get a dog like <whatever I have on a leash - Kyra, Kougar, Danger, Csabre> and why the ones that are being shown walk <the way they do> 

The only people I KNOW or have met who LIKE the ASL "look" are the ones who show them! I am sorry that offends you...I have never had anyone say to me that they want an ASL - even when they are clueless as to the differences in type.

Lee


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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

Nothing wrong with your dog ones what I call show stance then one pic stood normal but your dog is exactly how they should look not some these gsds I've seen personally where the poor dog had such a bent spine it couldn't walk was 5 years old and had to be put too sleep was so sad your dog's beautiful I use to show mine and know the difference then again I've had this breed for over 30 years my mum had her own kennels and I learnt a lot from that and gratefully to her for teaching me everything I know 

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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I know what you mean. It is frustrating to be told that "at least your dog isn't one of those show dogs" when at a herding trial with my champion.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Not worth getting so upset over.


The upset was kind of tongue in cheek 

But I post pictures of Wesson doing various things, springing about, etc etc, and I hear about how it's so nice I don't have "One of those crippled show dogs", and then people are shocked when I tell them she's only a major shy of her championship.

The trend towards extremes has declined quite noticeably in the last decade.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Andaka said:


> It is frustrating to be told that "at least your dog isn't one of those show dogs" when at a herding trial with my champion.




Sorry, that one really made me laugh.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

A good dog is a good dog, regardless of lines. I've found some from every line beautiful. There is good (and bad) in every line. It's not mutually exclusive. I will say that I think Wesson is lovely, Xeph.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I will say that I think Wesson is lovely, Xeph.


Thank you  I find her enjoyable. So do many others.

I find it interesting when I go to the dog show in Philly (benched show) to see the people flock to my various dogs. Some people will outright tell me their preference is my American girl, others like my working line better, and others like my cross line dog best.

They all get admired though. There is a lot of misinformation and ignorance about American lines. It is ok to have your preference (we all do), but informed preference is very different than the general assumption that an animal is broken or lesser because of the way it is set up for shows (and some dogs are set up in ridiculous ways).


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Xeph said:


> There is a lot of misinformation and ignorance about American lines. It is ok to have your preference (we all do), but informed preference is very different than the general assumption that an animal is broken or lesser because of the way it is set up for shows (and some dogs are set up in ridiculous ways).


This *^* is the point that shouldn't be missed. And, in the interest of making the world a better place for the breed we all love (forgetting splits in lines and personal preference), shouldn't at least an effort at education be made when we come across these attitudes of misinformation and ignorance?

I think for those people who do make the effort, the Sisyphean nature of doing so creates a mind-numbing sense of impotence at ever making headway. Which could lead someone like Jackie, a strong advocate for a line that often takes it on the chin again and again in conversations on this topic, to get to the point where the word "sloped" becomes emblematic of what appears to be an overwhelming amount of ignorance and misinformation. 
Sheilah


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

:snowmen::dancingtree::dancingtree::boy_snowman:

perhaps this needs to be a sticky!!!

:snowmen::dancingtree::dancingtree::boy_snowman:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> This ^ is the point that shouldn't be missed


And the point highlighted IS the one I'm trying to make, thank you, Sheilah 

My anger really was very tongue in cheek. I know this will be a conversation I'll have time and time again, and that is ok. What I cannot stand is when people "poo poo" explanations if the information is not about the line they favor.

I recognize the attributes and deficits of American lines, and Euro show lines, and working lines. I just want people to be truly informed before they go "I don't want".

So often people say "I want the kind of dog you have!" to me, and they do not realize that the dog they pointed at is the exact sort of dog that they earlier professed to NOT want!

Minds DO change when more information is presented, much as it pains some people.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

sit said:


> I think for those people who do make the effort, the Sisyphean nature of doing so creates a mind-numbing sense of impotence at ever making headway. Which could lead someone like Jackie, a strong advocate for a line that often takes it on the chin again and again in conversations on this topic, to get to the point where the word "sloped" becomes emblematic of what appears to be an overwhelming amount of ignorance and misinformation.


This is such a good point. About, well, all _kinds_ of things really, but this particular issue is a big one.

Someone suggested it before in a different context, but perhaps it would be helpful to have a canned form-letter post just saved on file for such situations? In particular I'm thinking of the stacked vs. free standing pictures, because I remember that the very first time I saw those pictures side by side, it completely _blew my mind_. So that naturally sticks out to me as something that had a huge impact in changing my own perceptions.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

What is the point of the bizarro stack stance? What does it facilitate? Ya gotta admit, it looks uncomfortable and unnatural. Mine stack a little when something catches their attention in mid-stride but not to the point their butt is 3 inches off the ground.

I guess I am asking , an exaggerated pose(the stack) serves some purpose...what is that purpose?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Ya gotta admit, it looks uncomfortable and unnatural.


Uh, no. All my dogs stand and stack like that. The entire BREED stands like that.

In terms of exaggeration, that is a point of fashion, and there are many ways to exaggerate it that many people employ.

I have a friend that has a beautiful bitch. They have one picture of the bitch standing entirely on her foot pads, and she looks very balanced and comfortable. They have another picture of the same bitch with her hock placed flat on the ground, her head held way up, and her rear leg extended well behind her. I do not like how she looks that way. I feel she looks unbalanced and over done.

This person says stacking the other way looks "boring" and isn't dramatic enough. I do not agree, but the way they stack their dog is their choice.

I *do* alter how I set my bitch up to some degree, to try and catch the eye of the judge I'm showing to.

Here are 4 different pictures all of the same bitch (same as in OP)


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Last pic, like the snow pic, to my eye looks like the dog is about to take off after something. That in and of itself isn't unnatural, it's standing like that that seems like it would really do a number on the front wrists(I guess thats what you call them). Freezing that stance seems strange to my perception. Having a standard pose(stack) for judges to have a common denominator makes a lot of sense. Why is that pose sought after? Does it amplify muscle tone or help spot structure faults? In my sad little world a dog standing in a semi-relaxed straight-back manner would be what I'd want to see for the analytical phase of judging(showing my absolute lack of knowledge here).

Mine stack up like the top pick when something grabs their attention when they are prowling the yard, never do they go low like the show stack, hence the comment it looks sort of weird.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The wrists are called pasterns  Her pasterns are strong and correct, and thus can take her body weight on them. That is what pasterns are for...absorbing shock. I actually hate the last picture, as I find her to look the most unbalanced there. I posted it to show how different she can look with various set ups.

But no, standing that way does not adversely affect the dog anymore than it affects a dog that stands four square.

Nobody knows why this breed stands this way for exhibition purposes, but there are photos of dogs doing it from the very early days of the breed. There is no written reason....that's just how they're set up.



> semi-relaxed straight-back manner


Part of exhibition is to put on a show. A dog just standing there is boring to look at and does not show itself off well. It will not get looked at, or, if it does, will not tend to place well.

Also "straight back manner" is really not correct terminology as, again, the dog's back is straight regardless of how it is set up.



> never do they go low like the show stack


If your dogs do not have much bend of stifle and rear angulation, they will not drop as low


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Back parallel to ground. I say straight as in reference to the ground, my omission of reference is my bad.

So the stack is just an exciting way to show off correct structure in what some may find aesthetically pleasing. Gotcha.

Now that stiffle comment has got me. Stiffle being the next joint up from the rear pastern? Is there a rear pastern? Mine have that nice kink going on there.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Is there a rear pastern?


It's called the hock. It is the area between the toes and ankle of the dog.

The stack is just a way to show off structure, yes. Every breed stacks to be shown, we are just the only breed that stacks 4 square. Regardless of line (working, American show, Euro show), ALL GSDs are set up in a 3 point stack when they are evaluated at a conformation show

The stifle is the knee area of the dog, where the upper and lower thigh bones meet in the middle.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Here's a simple anatomy chart 

https://dfdk9.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/shepherd-anatomy-small.png


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Anatomy noob alert...
It seems to me that the 3 point stack would lend itself to one judging the rear angulation on a dog with long hair. You can see where the joints break and can compare the length of each portion of the leg easier (for me) on the bent leg.

David Winners


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Xeph said:


> Uh, no. All my dogs stand and stack like that. The entire BREED stands like that.
> 
> This person says stacking the other way looks "boring" and isn't dramatic enough. I do not agree, but the way they stack their dog is their choice.
> 
> ...


First, she is a lovely bitch. Very pretty. 

I don't like the final stacked profile. But that's just me. I don't like extremes in conformation or drives. 

I get that it's just the way the dog is stacked. I still don't like it. But your bitch is obviously lovely. 

Actually there was a thread a while ago that did something similar, showing the same dog stacked differently and how big of a difference it can make in the picture. It was a truly eye opening thread for me. 

I have actually had my eyes opened quite a bit to the ASL. The lady I took my boy to for herding has them. And they are all solid champion tending style herding dogs. Stamina, drive, balance. Something I never thought possible. But you live and learn. 

Is it the style I prefer? No. But I can appreciate a good dog, no matter the lines. A good dog is a good dog. 



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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I don't like the final stacked profile. But that's just me. I don't like extremes in conformation or drives.


I don't either, but the majority of my AmLine friends on facebook cited that picture as their favorite in the series I took! I think she looks unbalanced in that photo, both physically and structurally

This was my favorite of the 4 or so I kept that day:


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Here's a simple anatomy chart
> 
> https://dfdk9.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/shepherd-anatomy-small.png


Awesome. Thanks. 

...what strange terms for anatomy. The "flew"? LOL


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

My fave is the top one, I know that stance and it means my dogs are being smart, athletic critters. The muzzle/flew(again, lol) relationship I think is what makes it for me. That's a thinking pose and I like it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Flews are the loose skin around the mouth. Lips if you will.

David Winners


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Yeah, it is what does the weird flap if you let them hang their head out the car window


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Okay, this is my take on the 'reason for stack'. The GSD is (I think) the only breed bred to have an over reach in stride. Most dogs (animals) back leg (foot) lands where the front just came from. There are exceptions. The GSD's back foot reaches further forward than where the front foot just came from. Therefore, it is more comfortable for the dog to stand with one back leg forward and one back. You will see your dogs do this naturally all the time, it is because of their conformation. Learned that in the Pat Hastings seminar as well. There is a breeder in Canada that has photos of a dog stacked and naturally standing on her website. I like the first two photos in this thread. I think it is very informative for misinformed people. I also would need to see the dog in motion. I have worked with some ASL dog people and the rear leg movement, in my opinion, is so wobbly and cripple looking. The dogs have weak nerves and no willingness to please or train. And she is now bringing in a working/show cross male to add to her breeding program.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> The GSD is (I think) the only breed bred to have an over reach in stride.


The Brittany also does it, and they are a square breed 

Here, Wesson gaiting. I would have liked to show her better, but I was feeling like crap that day (she got her TC that day, though)





Here is a still of her in motion at a show









Video of when we were road working before the national. When she trips, there was a divot there in the field


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Yeah, it is what does the weird flap if you let them hang their head out the car window



Or occasionally gets hung up on their teeth giving them that delightful "der her der her" gomer look :laugh:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GrammaD said:


> Or occasionally gets hung up on their teeth giving them that delightful "der her der her" gomer look :laugh:


After a few glasses of wine, I find that to be super funny :rofl:


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

GrammaD said:


> Or occasionally gets hung up on their teeth giving them that delightful "der her der her" gomer look :laugh:


My very most favorite dog expression of all. I never get tired of that one.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I'm all about head tilts myself. For some reason they're extra hilarious to me when the dogs are set up for show pictures. Probably because I want them looking noble and serious and instead they look clownish and dopey


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Boy, you go to work, come home, get on the forum, and all **** has broken loose. You are such a rabble-rouser, Jackie.  
Anyway, dogfaeries here, reporting for ASL defending duty...

Okay, I've already posted many photos of my girls standing relaxed, and then stacked. I'm not going to repost them. 

As I've said before, random people come up to me at every single conformation show, and tell me that they think my dogs are so pretty. And that they are glad to see a German Shepherd that doesn't have "that slope". OMG. I have typical ASLs. I have no idea what these people are even talking about when they approach me. 

I had some wizened old guy in some IPO/schutzhund club jacket, come up to me at a herding event. He asked me if had my dog entered (pointed to Sage). Oh no, we are just watching. He told me he thought I had a nice dog. REALLY?? I thought he was making fun of her, at first, but realized he was serious. I was shocked. You all have me convinced that my ASL dogs are hated by everyone with half a brain. And that is just not true apparently.

My little rant for today. My basketball team just lost, so I'm a little cranky.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Xeph said:


> I'm all about head tilts myself. For some reason they're extra hilarious to me when the dogs are set up for show pictures. Probably because I want them looking noble and serious and instead they look clownish and dopey


I posted a video of my Huxley doing some major head tilting in the "show me your..." forum.

He's ASLxWGSL by the by.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I first started browsing this forum when I had my first GSD foster dog, I waited a long time before actually starting an account here. One of the main reasons I decided to join was that I saw that people on here were actually concerned about breeding practices that were unhealthy/extreme.

In my time browsing, I learned that there were different lines of GSDs. I must admit that I still find that odd and probably counter-productive to the overall health of the breed population. 

I also learned that are breeders/fanciers that are doing all they can to maintain the health and vitality of their lines, and they are doing a great job!

But, there are a lot of breeders out there who are not as conscientious and that is why so many people talk about not wanting a dog with “slope,” “severe angulation,” or “frog walkers.”

As someone who came to this breed through my foster and rescue experiences only, I can’t tell you how many times people have told me that my GSD fosters couldn’t possibly be purebreds because they do not have the extreme rear angulation… of course, people typically use the term “straight back” or “able to walk normally” most often.

I can relate to those people because, before joining this forum, I had the same impression of all GSDs. I remember seeing GSDs in my neighborhood/city that really did look crippled in their structure… this was not a stacking issue, this was dogs walking around in everyday life.

So, I am really glad to hear that those extremes are no longer desired for. I hope Xeph is right on that. 

With that said, the dogs that I saw in real life with the worst structure/gait were black & reds so maybe the real problem is with poorly produced WGSLs. But, I really don't know.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> So, I am really glad to hear that those extremes are no longer desired for.


That's actually not what I said. I said we're moving away from the trend. There are plenty of people that WANT an extreme animal (I don't know why...it can't do much).


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GrammaD said:


> Or occasionally gets hung up on their teeth giving them that delightful "der her der her" gomer look :laugh:


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

:laugh: That's a great picture.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I love it when that happens to my dog with her lips. lol I always make a face back at her. lol


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