# Sigh....A Leash must be a difficult tool....



## Stonevintage

I've been trying to overcome a certain fear I have of walking my dog. I've been taking her for walks on the busy streets because I'm hoping that will cut down on possible encounters with loose dogs as she is dog aggressive.

This is about 75 feet from my house - on that street. This is the 3rd dog I've seen alone outside a business while the owner is inside shopping. Notice the secure tie..... There was a planter about 2 feet away that she could have looped the leash around the heavy wood leg.... but apparently she was in a hurry to shop..... Last week, someone tied their dog to a bicycle for sale outside a store....????

Just a rant.....no walk for Summer today:frown2:


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## dogma13

Well that picture is the most ridiculous thing I've seen today.


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## LuvShepherds

Have you talked to any of those owners? The dog looks extremely calm, but that isn't a secure fastener. What are they thinking? If not the danger, do they care that someone could steal their dog?


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## Mudypoz

Wrong on so many levels. First of all, I'd never in a million years leave my dog outside a business, even for a few minutes. I may trust my dog, but I don't trust people not to bother or steal my dog. And to just casually throw the leash around something is pretty disrespectful to other people. They shouldn't expect others to trust their dog even if they do.

There's a certain path in our town that's full of unleashed dogs, some come from the nearby yards, and some are walking with their owners, who usually shout "he's friendly" from a distance. I used to not walk there because of this, because my dog doesn't like loose dogs when she's leashed, but I've started just shouting back "mine's not", and watch them scramble to get hold of their dog before it reaches mine. I usually also walk with a large umbrella that I can use as a weapon if we're accosted by stray dogs.

It really sucks that a lot of people don't want to walk their dogs because of this. I wish people would be more considerate of others :|


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## Stonevintage

I won't be talking to any of the owners. Their dogs are just fine and I should mind my own business. That's the classic answer. 

This is just more banking on the odds, that the world is a perfect place and "it can't happen to me or my dog".... until it does.

This is 6 feet from rush hour cars doing 35mph up a one way street. No concern for the dog, others walking their dogs, kids that will spot the doggie and want to rush up and pet. That 6' Z dress rack - you can't see most of it but it was loaded with full length wedding dresses and bridesmaids gowns on the end closest to the shop door. Had I been walking Summer around the corner from my house - we would have been upon that dog with about 5 feet of warning- all heck would have broken loose.....


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## MineAreWorkingline

It is a shame that people can't walk their neighborhood because of ill contained dog fighting breeds. Rest assured if this Pit would grip somebody else's dog, the owner would be standing their flapping their wings not having a clue how to remove the Pit from the other dog. It happens all the time and usually good samaritans are forced to take up the task of Pit Bull removal while the owners stands by ineffective and useless.


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## Niexist

This is scary. My parents have smaller dogs a papillon miniature poodle, and a working line springer spaniel. They have told me pit bulls have charged their ornery male min poodle, and they'll pick up all the dogs and honestly my stepdad will have to kick them to get them away. I'm afraid I'll have a situation like this but my dog will be too large to just pick up.


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## Stonevintage

That's my concern too. I saw this dog across the street when I was walking up to go to Safeway. 1/2 hour later, I'm walking home and there's this same dog on the other side of the street. Mine's 80lbs.. I gauged this one when I passed him walking on the other side with the owner at about 60lbs.

Put me there alone, coming around the corner with those 2 suddenly meeting - and just me there.......:crying:


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## Dunkirk

Can you ask your mayor to install hitching posts for dogs? Looks like you have a good case for it happening.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Dunkirk said:


> Can you ask your mayor to install hitching posts for dogs? Looks like you have a good case for it happening.


What good would it do? My dogs would buzzsaw through that leash in about two seconds.


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## Stonevintage

Dunkirk said:


> Can you ask your mayor to install hitching posts for dogs? Looks like you have a good case for it happening.


It seems like these dog owners want to tie their dogs as near the front door of the business they're going into as they can get. I'm not sure how "centralized" tie stations would work. Do they work down under? Isn't theft a problem?


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## selzer

When I leave my dog outside a store, I don't tie her at all. I just put her on a down stay. 

She watches through the window, while I go in, grab a donut or hot dog, pay, and then come out. Sometimes people come in while I am grabbing, and they marvel that she doesn't move. But I don't do it often.

Maybe these dogs are actually well-trained, and the hitching doesn't need to be gladiator-tough.


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## viking

Well, its a shame that people do the things they do but you can't control every aspect of your environment outside your property. Maybe view this as an incentive to train your dog's reactivity to other dogs. That's something you can control. Its do-able.


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## Stonevintage

My dog is DA. There are leash laws and I abide by them. If your dog is unattended and/or unleashed - and there is an altercation between my dog (leashed) and your dog - I will kill your dog with the weapon I carry. It's legal and approved by LE. 

So - keep on with that attitude. One day, your dog will meet one like mine (and myself) and that will be the end of it.


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> When I leave my dog outside a store, I don't tie her at all. I just put her on a down stay.
> 
> She watches through the window, while I go in, grab a donut or hot dog, pay, and then come out. Sometimes people come in while I am grabbing, and they marvel that she doesn't move. But I don't do it often.
> 
> Maybe these dogs are actually well-trained, and the hitching doesn't need to be gladiator-tough.


Reputable breeders, rescues and shelters advise to NEVER take your Pit Bull to dog parks or around unknown dogs. They advise to carry a breakstick when taking a Pit Bull out in public. 

Pit Bulls and dog fighting breeds are zero mistake dogs. Do you want your dog to be the one involved when and if this "well trained" Pit Bull decides to break training? Your dog's life can depend on the answer.

This month, it has been one year since I have tried to walk a dog in my community. The last time I tried, I never got past the front of my house. A Pit Bull attacked. For God's sake, my dog was just a puppy. My pup never got her first walk in my neighborhood, and I will never allow her to walk try to walk it again because of situations just like in these pictures posted.


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## selzer

There are a lot of pits around. Plenty up at PetsMart today. I took my puppy out there, because, well she had class (not at PetsMart) but Moofy was getting groomed, and I didn't want to leave her in the car. 

My dog did not get attacked even though there were pits everywhere. I took two dogs in, one dog out, then came back in with one dog and took two dogs out. No problems. 

I know it is hard when you have had a dog attacked, but you are allowing it to change your life. At some point, you are doing just as much if not more damage, by not moving beyond this. If you must carry a break stick, and an extra leash, but don't let the fact that something bad might happen keep you from experiencing life with your dog.


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## Stonevintage

LuvShepherds said:


> Have you talked to any of those owners? The dog looks extremely calm, but that isn't a secure fastener. What are they thinking? If not the danger, do they care that someone could steal their dog?


The dog and owner came around the corner on the shady side (West) of the main street. The dog was clearly pulling and the owner had poor control. She tried to stop to go into one store with the dog and he was pulling her past the door.

The photos I took were of the dog 1/2 hour later in the full afternoon sunlight (we were all blissed out by it- it's been a while!) and it was much mellower - but not earlier.....

That's why I went home, got my camera and went back and took pic's. I wish I would have had it on the way up when she had poor control.....


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> There are a lot of pits around. Plenty up at PetsMart today. I took my puppy out there, because, well she had class (not at PetsMart) but Moofy was getting groomed, and I didn't want to leave her in the car.
> 
> My dog did not get attacked even though there were pits everywhere. I took two dogs in, one dog out, then came back in with one dog and took two dogs out. No problems.
> 
> I know it is hard when you have had a dog attacked, but you are allowing it to change your life. At some point, you are doing just as much if not more damage, by not moving beyond this. If you must carry a break stick, and an extra leash, but don't let the fact that something bad might happen keep you from experiencing life with your dog.


I haven't had one dog attacked. This was only the first Pit Bull attack for this puppy. Incidentally, in the first attack, the Pit Bull redirected to me and injured myself, and all this with the police not far away. It doesn't take much. But in 2015 alone, that pup was attacked twice, me once, my other pup attacked once, and my cat attacked. That is five attacks in one year, all by Pit Bulls and that does not include the multitude of times Pit Bulls were outside my fence trying to get in to fight with my dogs and it certainly does not take into account all the Pit Bull attacks I saw just from my property on other people and their pets. Attacks by all other breeds combined, zero. And I obviously am a person that goes out of my way to avoid Pit Bulls but still chalked up five attacks. This is not okay. When you think about it, if I did not take the precautions that I do, just think how many attacks there would have been last year.

I find it most curious for somebody who believes in less government intervention, rules and regulations, would think it should be other people's burden to go to extremes to protect their themselves and their pets from the reckless and irresponsible. I think the ones responsible for the problem should carry burden, and failing so, then the government should step in.


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## Stonevintage

I understand what you are saying. If I had not been attacked - it may be a different story, or my last GSD attacked, or my brother....No - that's not right - I owned one for 13 years prior to all that and she killed 3 dogs....but she was a sweetie and would never hurt anyone. We never had her on a leash in 13 years and she could go anywhere with us- except for those three times.

I know better. You are not likely to meet a bad dog in Petsmart...That does not mean they're not out there or this could just the wrong day like it was with mine 3 times in 13 years. Why do I have to structure my life around something as simple as a leash law?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Leashed laws do not address the breed specific issues of Pit Bulls. Too many Pits have done serious damage, even killed dogs and cats, with an owner on the other end of a leash.


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## Stonevintage

I am concerned with all breeds of dogs when it comes to unleashed/unattended. There are many breeds that can promise more than a mere skirmish and each goes on their way. 

It is also the small dog- though isn't it ironic that most of them aren't left to run loose or be left on the street loosely tethered...

I don't want the unnecessary confrontation or possibility of confrontation. Nobody wants that - yet some live in Disneyland and it "will never happen to them"......


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## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> I am concerned with all breeds of dogs when it comes to unleashed/unattended. There are many breeds that can promise more than a mere skirmish and each goes on their way.
> 
> It is also the small dog- though isn't it ironic that most of them aren't left to run loose or be left on the street loosely tethered...
> 
> I don't want the unnecessary confrontation or possibility of confrontation. Nobody wants that - yet some live in Disneyland and it "will never happen to them"......


Some of us have lived in 5 or 6 or 7 decades and it still hasn't happened to us, so, maybe we aren't willing to act like the sky is falling because maybe it will. 

I understand that you have experienced a number of attacks. Maybe your neighborhood has a lot of irresponsible dog owners. It's not everywhere.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think the problem is the worst in the city. People need to also take into consideration that it just doesn't impact those posting now, but it impacts all of the people that live in the same communities. That is a lot of people whose lives are being controlled by Pit Bull owners.


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## Stonevintage

You could be correct on that. My experiences didn't start until 1978 when I was 23. I'm 62 now and have lived during that time in Northern & Southern Calif., Texas, Massachusetts & New Hampshire and Idaho. I can only speak from my experience and the 5 dogs I had during that time.

Oh wait - I need to go back to 1968, so 43 years back. My Cocker Spaniel puppy was attacked and tore up pretty good by a "Spanky and our Gang" look alike dog when I was 13. Then there was the GSD I rescued at 17 - he was attacked at the beach by a loose dog that looked like a boxer mix....


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## viking

Stonevintage said:


> I am concerned with all breeds of dogs when it comes to unleashed/unattended. There are many breeds that can promise more than a mere skirmish and each goes on their way.
> 
> It is also the small dog- though isn't it ironic that most of them aren't left to run loose or be left on the street loosely tethered...
> 
> I don't want the unnecessary confrontation or possibility of confrontation. Nobody wants that - yet some live in Disneyland and it "will never happen to them"......


Well, from what you've said it sounds like a confrontation is unavoidable with your dog, whether another dog reacts or not. 

Why not focus on your end, the one thing you can control. I'm not saying the dog in your pic should've been left like that but I will say that your dog should be able to walk past it, particularly if the other is well trained enough to hold its down stay. It seems like you're exclusively focused on that other dog (or dogs) in your neighborhood but by your own admission, your dog is DA. I don't understand why your focus isn't there?


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## Dunkirk

Stonevintage said:


> It seems like these dog owners want to tie their dogs as near the front door of the business they're going into as they can get. I'm not sure how "centralized" tie stations would work. Do they work down under? Isn't theft a problem?


Pit bulls are a restricted breed in Queensland with regulations:

Section 55 of the Companion Animals Act 1988 contains restrictions for the prescribed breeds (see above)

The owners of restricted dogs must comply with the following requirements:

The dog must be kept in a child proof enclosure.
The dog cannot be in the sole charge of a person under the age of 18 years.
One or more signs “ Warning Dangerous Dogs” must be displayed on the boundaries of the property
When the dog is away from its normal property it must be under the effective control of a competent person
The dog cannot be sold to a person less than 18 years of age
The dog owner must notify the Local Council of the following matters
That the dog has attacked or injured a person or animal (within 24 hours)
That the dog cannot be found (within 24 hours)
That the dog has died (as soon as possible)
That the dog’s ownership has changed (within 24 hours)
That the dog is no longer being ordinarily kept in the area of the council (as soon as possible)
That the dog is being ordinarily kept at a different location in the area of the council (as soon as possible). 

I only occasionally see dogs tied up outside stores/malls in Queensland, and they've all been nice well behaved pets.


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## MineAreWorkingline

When I grew up and as a young adult, they did not have leash laws, but nobody kept dog fighting breeds as pets either. It was very common to see loose dogs standing outside of stores on busy thoroughfares or open air markets and there were no problems.


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## Stonevintage

Viking - you need to acknowledge that some dogs are DA and will never be trustworthy running loose. I have control of mine at all times within my personal radius. That's more than I can say for 95% of the dog owners that let their dogs run loose because their ego leads them to believe that their dogs are bomb proof on recall... Bullcorn! I can understand that all dogs should not be DA and in a Disneyland world - that would be the way it is... however - I can tell you that is probably not going to happen with my dog. It may downgrade but would I ever trust her - no....because I would need a 100% no, not what many go on, something less but they choose to expose other dogs to their "more or less" dogs off leash.

What is the big problem with having your dog on a leash? Why is it such a problem for you to understand that things can go very wrong and not all dogs will be as perfect as you think yours is?


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## viking

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When I grew up and as a young adult, they did not have leash laws, but nobody kept dog fighting breeds as pets either. It was very common to see loose dogs standing outside of stores on busy thoroughfares or open air markets and there were no problems.


In my neighborhood its like that now. There's often a dog outside the corner store waiting for its owner. I don't dare leave my boy there because . . . I just can't - what if someone took him!? 

My dog was extremely dog reactive when I got him but we have conquered that challenge. It is do-able.


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## MineAreWorkingline

viking said:


> In my neighborhood its like that now. There's often a dog outside the corner store waiting for its owner. I don't dare leave my boy there because . . . I just can't - what if someone took him!?
> 
> My dog was extremely dog reactive when I got him but we have conquered that challenge. It is do-able.


I thought German Shepherds were theft proof! :grin2:


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## viking

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I thought German Shepherds were theft proof! :grin2:


Lol! :grin2: If I had eyes on it and recalled him he'd slip his collar and come for sure! That, I don't doubt. Still, I don't dare. What if I were delayed for whatever stupid reason? Unthinkable!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Actually, I had a longhaired German Shepherd put in that position. He buzzsawed right through the leash rather than be taken away.


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## viking

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Actually, I had a longhaired German Shepherd put in that position. He buzzsawed right through the leash rather than be taken away.


That is outstanding! What a definitive demonstration of your bond with him!

I haven't had such a test so I really couldn't say what would happen, except for the recall part.


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## viking

Stonevintage said:


> Viking - you need to acknowledge that some dogs are DA and will never be trustworthy running loose. I have control of mine at all times within my personal radius. That's more than I can say for 95% of the dog owners that let their dogs run loose because their ego leads them to believe that their dogs are bomb proof on recall... Bullcorn! I can understand that all dogs should not be DA and in a Disneyland world - that would be the way it is... however - I can tell you that is probably not going to happen with my dog. It may downgrade but would I ever trust her - no....because I would need a 100% no, not what many go on, something less but they choose to expose other dogs to their "more or less" dogs off leash.
> 
> What is the big problem with having your dog on a leash? Why is it such a problem for you to understand that things can go very wrong and not all dogs will be as perfect as you think yours is?


We got sideways here somewhere. I wasn't recommending you leave your dog loose. Nor do I have any problem with dogs being on leash - I think they ought to be leashed out in public, non-dog areas. I haven't taken any of these positions.
I saw earlier you were commenting about how impossible a situation it would have been for you to control your DA dog had you come across the dog on the sidewalk in the pic you posted. You've been very clear that your dog is DA. I'm advocating that you focus on that and not the things you have no control over.

Lastly, there's no need to go after my boy. Nothing is perfect in this world nor did I ever make such a claim about him. Are you trying to pick a fight?


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## ksotto333

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying. If I had not been attacked - it may be a different story, or my last GSD attacked, or my brother....No - that's not right - I owned one for 13 years prior to all that and she killed 3 dogs....but she was a sweetie and would never hurt anyone. We never had her on a leash in 13 years and she could go anywhere with us- except for those three times.
> 
> I know better. You are not likely to meet a bad dog in Petsmart...That does not mean they're not out there or this could just the wrong day like it was with mine 3 times in 13 years. Why do I have to structure my life around something as simple as a leash law?


You had a dog that killed 3 times and you never had her leashed? Did I read that correctly?


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## Baillif

**** of a body count.

But yeah walking dogs IMO is very overrated. I don't do it with mine at all. I'll play games with them instead to get them exercised like tug or frisbee or I'll let them play with each other for exercise in the case of Riker who doesn't fetch or tug. Walking a dog is one of those activities that doesn't have a heck of a lot of benefit to it for the amount of time it takes. Probably not a popular opinion but there it is. Why walk a dog for two hours when I can blow the dogs energy out in 20 minutes? Or I can take them to a creek or lake somewhere and let them swim it out. I wouldn't want to worry about negotiating groups of loose dogs or irresponsible dog owners if it can be avoided. Generally isn't an issue though. Even if I go to a public field if I break out a tug the way Crank plays intensity wise with it he can generally clear a field of people fairly quickly.


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## RockyK9

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When I grew up and as a young adult, they did not have leash laws, but nobody kept dog fighting breeds as pets either. It was very common to see loose dogs standing outside of stores on busy thoroughfares or open air markets and there were no problems.


 Wow this is a sensitive issue I feel. I do understand that. I'm empathetic to anyone who has been attacked by any dog. 

Pitbulls are not an identifiable breed as other dogs are. I'm sure you would agree of the many "mixes" that people call "Pitbulls" . One of the reasons breed specific laws are outraging many people . You can't positively identify a Pitbull. Here in Ontario they are banned currently but because you can't really prove a dog is actually a Pitbull ( again , DNA tests could never even proof this) as its a mix of breeds most people describe. Many people have them. I have not yet met one that was aggressive to people . Other animals yes. If your local authorities don't enforce the laws then why blame the dogs? How about charging the owners? Just my experience.


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## RockyK9

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When I grew up and as a young adult, they did not have leash laws, but nobody kept dog fighting breeds as pets either. It was very common to see loose dogs standing outside of stores on busy thoroughfares or open air markets and there were no problems.


 These dogs are not bred for dog fighting by normal , well adjusted humans BTW. The original breeding purpose of these dogs was not dogfighting ....Jeez there are therapy dogs that are " Pitbulls".


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## Baillif

They have a marked disposition toward dog fighting. I don't know how people can dispute that with a straight face. Do all of them fight dogs? Of course not. There is a stereotype for a reason though. Nobody just started picking on them out of the blue. The original purpose of the breed or rather the group of dogs that become what we call a Pitbull now was bullbaiting. It was when it was outlawed people turned to fighting them against each other. The marked predisposition is there for a reason they were bred for it.

These days breeding for utility isn't quite as common you can't really say they are bred for anything now usually. The people that tend to own them a lot of times aren't the most responsible dog owners and they reproduce largely uncontrolled and fill shelters up like crazy. It's a problem. Plain and simple. Pitbull advocates would deny it up and down but it's the truth.

There are certain breeds of dogs that shouldn't be made popular that's just the way it is. The Belgian Malinois is one of them. I own three and I love them. Think they are the best dog ever. I don't let that love blind me from the truth. If they were as popular as the Pitbull or pit mixes are now and as wide spread we'd be taking about banning them right now probably. The average American knowledge and skill as it pertains to dogs is not high enough to safely and responsibly own powerful dogs with tendencies toward being aggressive.


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## llombardo

Baillif said:


> **** of a body count.
> 
> But yeah walking dogs IMO is very overrated. I don't do it with mine at all. I'll play games with them instead to get them exercised like tug or frisbee or I'll let them play with each other for exercise in the case of Riker who doesn't fetch or tug. Walking a dog is one of those activities that doesn't have a heck of a lot of benefit to it for the amount of time it takes. Probably not a popular opinion but there it is. Why walk a dog for two hours when I can blow the dogs energy out in 20 minutes? Or I can take them to a creek or lake somewhere and let them swim it out. I wouldn't want to worry about negotiating groups of loose dogs or irresponsible dog owners if it can be avoided. Generally isn't an issue though. Even if I go to a public field if I break out a tug the way Crank plays intensity wise with it he can generally clear a field of people fairly quickly.


I have to agree with the walking. I didn't buy a house with a half acre, a swimming pool and agility equipment to walk them. Sure I take them hiking and they jump in the lake but none of mine require more then that. They swim almost daily in the summer which they enjoy way more then taking a walk. I do bring them out to see the neighbors because I want them to keep a good relationship with them, which works well because they never bark at them:laugh2:


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## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> **** of a body count.
> 
> But yeah walking dogs IMO is very overrated. I don't do it with mine at all. I'll play games with them instead to get them exercised like tug or frisbee or I'll let them play with each other for exercise in the case of Riker who doesn't fetch or tug. Walking a dog is one of those activities that doesn't have a heck of a lot of benefit to it for the amount of time it takes. Probably not a popular opinion but there it is. Why walk a dog for two hours when I can blow the dogs energy out in 20 minutes? Or I can take them to a creek or lake somewhere and let them swim it out. I wouldn't want to worry about negotiating groups of loose dogs or irresponsible dog owners if it can be avoided. Generally isn't an issue though. Even if I go to a public field if I break out a tug the way Crank plays intensity wise with it he can generally clear a field of people fairly quickly.


This is what I have been doing. I have a large fenced yard and she runs like the wind out there and it is safe. 7 months of the year the back door is open 8 hours a day and she comes and goes as do I. I have a small online business and my inventory is in a large metal building on the property so I'm out there a lot and she comes and goes from there too.

A game of two ball is a wonderful form of exercise and she plays it perfectly. She also has a "race track" she built and man does she fly!:smile2: Anything I put in the path of her racecourse is automatically a jump for her. I just bought a dozen of those 4' swimming pool foam noodles and some 1/2" PVC and will be adding those to the course (need some ideas on that) plus a wood ramp I just need to get hinges for.

It brings me some relief to hear that walking is not essential as that may be the way it pans out here..... We get a huge influx of people here in the summer and animal control is only one person here and she can't be everywhere at once.


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## SuperG

Not saying that walking a dog is really any physical exercise...especially with larger breeds, But, I believe there is benefit in going places with your dog and trekking about as it exposes a dog to a multitude of sensory and other experiences which are good for a dog. The more elements one exposes their dog to... can't really do any harm and probably is a good thing for its confidence and indulges some of its innate tendencies. There's a whole lot more to the world than a dog's backyard and home. Watching a dog leave its scent for other dogs convinced me there is some value to this process.

SuperG


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## Jax08

I don't understand the point of this thread. Reading the OP, I thought it was about dogs not being properly secured based on her post and picture.

But then it seems it's turned into a pit bull trashing thread based on a picture of a mutt with a blocky head that "could" be a bully breed. Or could have Lab or could have Rott or could have any other breed with a blocky head in it. Love the personal agendas that pop up in these threads.


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## Baillif

SuperG said:


> Not saying that walking a dog is really any physical exercise...especially with larger breeds, But, I believe there is benefit in going places with your dog and trekking about as it exposes a dog to a multitude of sensory and other experiences which are good for a dog. The more elements one exposes their dog to... can't really do any harm and probably is a good thing for its confidence and indulges some of its innate tendencies. There's a whole lot more to the world than a dog's backyard and home. Watching a dog leave its scent for other dogs convinced me there is some value to this process.
> 
> SuperG


Yeah and I get that, but taking a dog through the neighborhood that's already socialized or of the temperament that it really doesn't need to be socialized has a really minimal value especially if you're going places where it's common dogs are at large and potentially there's a bad experience waiting for you and the dog waiting around the corner that is kinda out of your control. If I was going to walk or travel with my dog it's usually in places people can't just let them loose. I'd walk through a city or through businesses that allow leashed dog access or something like that. Or like was mentioned earlier out on a lake or place where I can see dogs at a distance and avoid issues. By and large I prefer just playing with my dogs. It conditions a me and the dog interaction rather than letting the dog get lost in the environment. There are of course times you just let them be a dog that is important too, but the value of a walk is rated too high by and large.


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## Baillif

Jax08 said:


> I don't understand the point of this thread. Reading the OP, I thought it was about dogs not being properly secured based on her post and picture.
> 
> But then it seems it's turned into a pit bull trashing thread based on a picture of a mutt with a blocky head that "could" be a bully breed. Or could have Lab or could have Rott or could have any other breed with a blocky head in it. Love the personal agendas that pop up in these threads.


Threads go where they go.


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## Stonevintage

Yea, well that conversation does come up and it is a concern. But in this case Jax - my concern was not all about the other dog or what breed it was specifically- though, if it more closely resembled a toy breed I would not have been as alarmed - call me silly.

My main concern was about improperly secured dogs and while I may have control of my dog (via Prong if needed) - how could I ever hope to break up a 2 dog fight when the other owner is just not present? It's just another source of a potential problem that I had not considered. I thought if I just walked my dog on the busy streets this scenario would be eliminated because this is a very bad street for dogs. Most that are loose get hit by a car very quickly.


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## SuperG

Baillif said:


> if you're going places where it's common dogs are at large and potentially there's a bad experience waiting for you and the dog waiting around the corner that is kinda out of your control.




Agreed....been through that situation and don't care to revisit it for a couple reasons....one is the "bad experience" and the other is...if I'm being uptight and super vigilant due to the potential of other dogs at large...the vibe I am giving off is just an overall negative experience for the dog and compromises the entire intended goal. Since I am a control freak of sorts.....I scout unfamiliar areas first before exploring with the dog.


SuperG


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## Baillif

How id personally handle that situation? If I know my dog is DA and another dog comes over I'd gauge its intent. If it comes aggressive and there's no way to avoid it I help my dog fight it. Straight up id try to engage first and avoid my dog fighting that dog but if it wasn't going to be intimated away I am gonna help my dog take it down. No punches pulled we are going till the dog tries to escape or is incapacitated. If I have a weapon I am using it.

If it's coming friendly and my dog is DA and there's no way to avoid it I will grab my dogs upper body and pull it upward near my shoulders to leave my dog unable to physically engage and then I will convince the other dog he needs to leave with my feet in a perhaps less than polite way if necessary. If that dog suddenly flips and becomes aggressive then we are back to fighting till we get rid of the threat.


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## Stonevintage

That is what I do also. But you can only do so much. Had I not gone to Safeway and approached this business from the North instead of the South like I usually do - I never would have seen this dog until we were right on top of him. Normally I go to the end of my block and check both blocks before I take her out. They are super long blocks with no side streets other than mine for a potential unexpected encounter. I just didn't realize that there are other little potential IED's poorly secured and unattended until recently.


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## Stonevintage

I have the spray and the marine air horn but I just wouldn't have had time even for those. OMG! That marine air horn!!! I've let off a few short bursts in my backyard to gauge Summer's reaction to it. It's so loud - this is one that will be heard 4 blocks away. She jumps or tenses so much that her whole body seems to raise about an inch off the ground but she just freezes and locks eyes with me which is exactly the response I was hoping she'd have. That buys me the couple of seconds I need to make the decision to gauge the other dog and get to the spray or get ready for a battle if the other dog doesn't back off. I have confidence in that air horn for stopping most dogs and breaking their train of thought - at least to buy some time.


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## Jax08

SV- I totally feel your pain. My female is DA. It's a constant, exhausting, battle to be on the look out for other dogs. I can have my dog under control. I"m an expert blocker. but I can't control other dogs. 

Like you, I try to avoid the areas with loose dogs. But who knew idiots would have their dogs loose at the vets! Little dogs aggressively charging her. Or walkign down the road and the neighbors dogs are loose. So I block her. I whacked one dog with frisbee and another with a water bottle when they circled her. BUT I knew these dogs and know I wouldn't hve been bitten by them.

Maybe you could talk to the businesses. Is tying dogs in front of businesses common in your town? Obviously that particular dog wasn't an issue. He was calmly laying there while you took his picture.. I've seen a couple of your threads on your fear of walking her. It seems to be a very real, paralyzing, fear for you. I'm not sure how you get over that but I think you do have to accept that these things will happen and how to deal with them. I'm not sure using an air horn, scaring your own dog and possibly creating noise phobia's in her is the way to go.


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## MineAreWorkingline

mattpayne said:


> Wow this is a sensitive issue I feel. I do understand that. I'm empathetic to anyone who has been attacked by any dog.
> 
> Pitbulls are not an identifiable breed as other dogs are. I'm sure you would agree of the many "mixes" that people call "Pitbulls" . One of the reasons breed specific laws are outraging many people . You can't positively identify a Pitbull. Here in Ontario they are banned currently but because you can't really prove a dog is actually a Pitbull ( again , DNA tests could never even proof this) as its a mix of breeds most people describe. Many people have them. I have not yet met one that was aggressive to people . Other animals yes. If your local authorities don't enforce the laws then why blame the dogs? How about charging the owners? Just my experience.


Yes it is a sensitive issue. If you peruse this forum you will find many threads and many posts regarding Pit Bulls attacking other dogs. There are posts on here, sometimes daily if not every couple of days, about Pit Bull attacks. 

Pit Bulls are a recognizable breed with their own breed standard under multiple registries for over one hundred years better known as the American "Pit Bull" Terrier. The law describes pit bull types as American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, their mixes and derivatives. 

It has been proven that shelter workers can correctly identify Pit Bulls 96% of the time. Most people can recognize a Collie, an Irish Setter, a German Shepherd, and, believe it or not, most can also recognize a Pit Bull when they see one. DNA tests do not prove breed but heritage.

What you posted is a huge part of the problem. Yes, they usually are not human aggressive, but what, to you, makes animal aggression so acceptable? Other people's dogs and cats are not somebody else's bait animals. You ask why blame the dogs and not charge the owners? Because this should never happen in the first place, this is why you blame the Pits:









Just many people's experience, and yes, the GSD in the picture was attacked multiple times by a neighbor's Pit Bull over a period of time, and it ultimately died from its injuries with no help from the law due to technicalities. Charging the owner after the fact is closing the barn door after the horse is out.



mattpayne said:


> These dogs are not bred for dog fighting by normal , well adjusted humans BTW. The original breeding purpose of these dogs was not dogfighting ....Jeez there are therapy dogs that are " Pitbulls".


I am not going to sit in judgment of people who breed Pit Bulls for fighting as it is not dog fighting Pits that are ill contained, tied up unsupervised in public, running the streets loose, or attacking other dogs. The original purpose of Pit Bulls was to attack and hold Bulls without provocation. They were later used to kill rats in a Pit and then bred to fight and kill dogs in a pit. 

Geez, it has been proven that many Pit Bull owners are falsely presenting Pit Bulls as therapy dogs and that is a problem for real therapy dogs. There are many laws currently being considered to resolve this problem, some including jail time because of the magnitude of the problem. It also is well documented that therapy Pit Bulls have attacked police horses on duty, dogs, cats, waitresses and just this past week a therapy Pit Bull attacked a guide dog. Funny part is that the owner of that Pit Bull felt like you do stating that his Pit did not get aggressive with a human, what's the big deal? 

Therapy Pit Bull out of control and typical Pit Bull owner unwilling or unable to control it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9fj6pKczRA


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## GypsyGhost

Oh good. Another thread bashing pit bulls. Very productive. 

Again, I own some sort of pit bull mix. I am fully aware of what she is capable of and she is never off leash. As an owner of one of these dogs, it makes me furious when irresponsible people own them. It makes me just as furious when irresponsible people own a Boston Terrier (for what it's worth, my big scary pit mix was brutally attacked by an off-leash Boston Terrier. My dog's leg was a mess, but don't worry, the Boston came out completely unscathed). 

Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, stop lumping all of these dogs and all of these dog owners together. Not all of us leave our dogs to their own devices. Not all of us think "my dog would never do anything." Some of us are actually responsible dog owners. Shocker, I know.

And here is my pit bull disclaimer. I am far from a pit bull advocate. I routinely tell people that can't handle their five pound Yorkie NOT to get a pit bull. I do not think Joe Q. Public should be out there adopting a dog that can do so much damage. But this is not just reserved for pit bulls. I also don't think everyone should own a GSD. Or a Rott. Or a Dobe. And, for what it's worth, I do agree that most Pit Bull advocates should maybe reconsider what they're doing. It is irresponsible to promote ANY dog breed as a "nanny dog". It is irresponsible for them to say that EVERYONE could or should own a pit. Not true. Not true at all.


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## Stonevintage

Hopefully she will never hear that air horn again. I had to know what her reaction would be though so I had to test it but that's over.

I've been thinking about the store owners and I think there may be change underfoot that could be causing some of these problems. These 5 businesses in particular have been allowing dogs in their stores for the last couple of years. It appears that this experiment has failed as I noticed that two of the stores now have signs in their windows - no dogs allowed except for service dogs. You know, like everywhere else - when the therapy dogs came to be more popular everyone suddenly had a therapy dog then these stores just gave up and allowed all dogs.

It may be that that person brought their dog down thinking that they could still enter all the stores with him. The other dog I saw tied up to a bicycle for sale was also a store that up until recently allowed dogs. I'll talk to them about it. If their change in policy is part of the problem - perhaps they could install a secure dog tie out on their property. So people aren't tying their dogs inadequately or for goodness sake to items that are for sale....


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## MineAreWorkingline

GypsyGhost said:


> Oh good. Another thread bashing pit bulls. Very productive.
> 
> Again, I own some sort of pit bull mix. I am fully aware of what she is capable of and she is never off leash. As an owner of one of these dogs, it makes me furious when irresponsible people own them. It makes me just as furious when irresponsible people own a Boston Terrier (for what it's worth, my big scary pit mix was brutally attacked by an off-leash Boston Terrier. My dog's leg was a mess, but don't worry, the Boston came out completely unscathed).
> 
> Please, for the love of all that is good in this world, stop lumping all of these dogs and all of these dog owners together. Not all of us leave our dogs to their own devices. Not all of us think "my dog would never do anything." Some of us are actually responsible dog owners. Shocker, I know.
> 
> And here is my pit bull disclaimer. I am far from a pit bull advocate. I routinely tell people that can't handle their five pound Yorkie NOT to get a pit bull. I do not think Joe Q. Public should be out there adopting a dog that can do so much damage. But this is not just reserved for pit bulls. I also don't think everyone should own a GSD. Or a Rott. Or a Dobe. And, for what it's worth, I do agree that most Pit Bull advocates should maybe reconsider what they're doing. It is irresponsible to promote ANY dog breed as a "nanny dog". It is irresponsible for them to say that EVERYONE could or should own a pit. Not true. Not true at all.


Thank you for the informative post, this is what post people who deal with Pit Bulls on a daily basis, to the point where it majorly impacts their lives, ask for.


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## Jax08

Stonevintage said:


> If their change in policy is part of the problem - perhaps they could install a secure dog tie out on their property. So people aren't tying their dogs inadequately or for goodness sake to items that are for sale....


I had that suggestion typed out. BUT, with a little thought, I think that would encourage owners whose dogs really have no control. It might be better to ask the businesses to not allow dogs to be tied outside their businesses at all. If they provide tie out points, they are accepting legal responsibilities.


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## Steve Strom

I just accept the fact that all dogs can bite. But one thing I always seem to come across too often with owners of pits of any type, is this almost defensive insistence that their dogs don't and that I shouldn't judge the breed. Its this kind of delusional attitude that its them against the world and nobody else could understand. Not everyone of course, but just enough to convince me to give them a little extra attention.


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## GypsyGhost

Loose dogs majorly impact my life, too. I constantly worry that a loose little dog will attack my pit bull. Loose pit bulls also impact my life. There are lots of irresponsible pit owners in my neighborhood who seem to think leash laws don't apply to them. I still think it's the fault of the owners of these dogs, though. Well, and the rescues and shelters that are just so darn happy to adopt out another pit bull that they don't look at what negative things could happen by not being more selective in their adoption process. 

Sorry for the tone in my previous post. I'm a little surly today, it seems. I just don't think it's productive to complain about ALL pit bulls/owners this way on a forum. Carry on.


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## Stonevintage

Sometimes I do wonder.... The dog bite statistics on people generally run about 3-4 thousand per year for a certain breed type then drastically drop down to the 200 range for breeds 2 & 3 on the list and those #'s seem to be stable per capita though the last 15 years or so, though there was a slight rise in incidents reported in the #1 breed type for 2015.

There is a dramatic difference - so what makes one - hearing all they do and seeing those kinds of numbers if they care to look - decide "That's the Breed for ME!"?? I just don't get why the popularity is still there and the bite percentage is higher "per capita" than it's ever been.??? Is the mindset - "well, it might be a problem for many people but it won't be for me"? or, is it the flat out refusal to believe that these dogs are different than any other dog with the amount of damage they can inflict??? I don't get normal rational people having such a huge draw toward these dogs. There's more than the criminal element and simple ignorance at play here.


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## SuperG

Jax08 said:


> SV- But who knew idiots would have their dogs loose at the vets! Little dogs aggressively charging her.


Well....I guess the upside is the idiots are at the proper place when their dog requires some stitching.......


SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> I just accept the fact that all dogs can bite. But one thing I always seem to come across too often with owners of pits of any type, is this almost defensive insistence that their dogs don't and that I shouldn't judge the breed. Its this kind of delusional attitude that its them against the world and nobody else could understand. Not everyone of course, but just enough to convince me to give them a little extra attention.


Boy, I am really going to go off topic here, but I think you brought up a very good point.

The video attached is not graphic, nor is it about Pit Bulls, but Weimaraners. This just happened not long ago where a meter man was attacked by the two dogs and defended himself, while the family watched from five feet away and did nothing.

The reason I am posting this is because most of the people I know that do not favor Pits sided with the meter man while the people that I know that I spoke with that are pro Pit found the meter man at fault. 

I think it shores up your theory.

Family says CenterPoint worker beat dogs with pipe wrench | khou.com


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## Jax08

SuperG said:


> Well....I guess the upside is the idiots are at the proper place when their dog requires some stitching.......
> 
> 
> SuperG


that was my thought too 

And then the time some Rhodes Scholar walked in. PUt their chihuahua down and lovingly watched it meander over to our 85# malamute/st. b mix who had a severely broken leg. Yeaha...GET YOUR DOG RIGHT NOW. That was the point that I stopped even attempting to be civil to people.

Unfortunately, we can take all the precautions. We can train our dogs to the nth degree. But we can not control the actions of others.


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## Steve Strom

I know a lot of people don't want to believe their dog would ever bite, every different breed. But I seem to come across this almost pre-emptive "Don't worry he's friendly, everyone hates pitbulls" insistence that I not even question their dog running loose. I couldn't possibly understand because I don't have one stuff.


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## Steve Strom

Rhodes Scholar with a loose chihuahua, LOL.


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## carmspack

exactly !!!!


"Unfortunately, we can take all the precautions. We can train our dogs to the nth degree. But we can not control the actions of others. "


touching upon another thread , even if you had "absolute control" which simply does not exist--
you can not control the bigger environment .


when out in a public space -- put your dog on a lead . No matter what breed you have.
And don't reel out your flexi-lead so poochy can come visit.


I am not saying this because I DO like dogs . Always have, always will.


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## Stonevintage

Thank You!


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## Spectrum

Baillif said:


> **** of a body count.
> 
> But yeah walking dogs IMO is very overrated. I don't do it with mine at all. I'll play games with them instead to get them exercised like tug or frisbee or I'll let them play with each other for exercise in the case of Riker who doesn't fetch or tug. Walking a dog is one of those activities that doesn't have a heck of a lot of benefit to it for the amount of time it takes. Probably not a popular opinion but there it is. Why walk a dog for two hours when I can blow the dogs energy out in 20 minutes? Or I can take them to a creek or lake somewhere and let them swim it out. I wouldn't want to worry about negotiating groups of loose dogs or irresponsible dog owners if it can be avoided. Generally isn't an issue though. Even if I go to a public field if I break out a tug the way Crank plays intensity wise with it he can generally clear a field of people fairly quickly.


Agreed, I have a medium sized back yard, that's approximately 40x60ft long. About 20 minutes a day is all both my dogs need to be completely wasted.




Stonevintage said:


> Sometimes I do wonder.... The dog bite statistics on people generally run about 3-4 thousand per year for a certain breed type then drastically drop down to the 200 range for breeds 2 & 3 on the list and those #'s seem to be stable per capita though the last 15 years or so, though there was a slight rise in incidents reported in the #1 breed type for 2015.
> 
> There is a dramatic difference - so what makes one - hearing all they do and seeing those kinds of numbers if they care to look - decide "That's the Breed for ME!"?? I just don't get why the popularity is still there and the bite percentage is higher "per capita" than it's ever been.??? Is the mindset - "well, it might be a problem for many people but it won't be for me"? or, is it the flat out refusal to believe that these dogs are different than any other dog with the amount of damage they can inflict??? I don't get normal rational people having such a huge draw toward these dogs. There's more than the criminal element and simple ignorance at play here.


Pitbulls are 'image' dogs, just the way Golden Retrievers are. I by no means believe that Pit Bulls are gentle giants, and even though I own a pit bull, I understand that all bigger breeds have the potential to really cause damage if not managed properly. Individuals that are drawn to having these dogs many times do so because of the danger they symbolize. To adolescents, it makes them feel more manly. To many(but not all) women, they provide that intimidating look that could grant them much needed protection. The issue is that pit bulls need responsible, proactive owners. Shortcomings from a lack of proper training will be easily evident, compared to other breeds. 

I think the problem ultimately is magnified by the sheer lack of responsibility from many of the people that the dog attracts. I'm sure if you split up the dog attacks based on SES of their owners or even by prior convictions of the owners of the animals, the difference would be seen. In my case, I've told my partner that our pit has to live a perfect life, as the first mistake she makes could easily be her last. Because of that, she's always leashed, and never is placed in a situation where she could cause harm to anyone. My partner's sister, to juxtapose, owns a large 90lb+ pit bull that was never trained. He isn't aggressive to us, but he doesn't have any commands he follows. He's managed by his owner screaming at him to go somewhere. That, scares the crap out of me. 

Dogs like German Shepherds and Dobermans are expensive to own. I feel like that creates a natural barrier to these irresponsible owners. Pit pups are like a 1/5-1/10 of the cost of any of the purebreds mentioned, and that makes it easy for any of these wannabe gangsters to get their hands on them.


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## Heartandsoul

I've been thinking a lot lately about what can constructively be done about loose dogs because I am in the same boat and it gets down right depressing. Gorgeous day, want to go to the park but there will be some poopsie-woopsie off leash.

What if AC would announce through local media that they will be patrolling (name the area) on (name the day of the week). I think if A/C were more visable and pro active, than most people whether they are normally irresponsible would make an extra effort to keep their dog secure at least on the days they know that A/C will be in the area.

At least that way, you know what area may be a little bit safer to walk.

Whether they actually do it may not even matter. The threat may be just enough of a deterrent.

And it's the angry little dogs that scare me the most. They are fast, not enough body to grab at and least likely to survive if they do connect with a gsd.

I'm thinking about talking to the town about this.


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## voodoolamb

> There is a dramatic difference - so what makes one - hearing all they do and seeing those kinds of numbers if they care to look - decide "That's the Breed for ME!"?? I just don't get why the popularity is still there and the bite percentage is higher "per capita" than it's ever been.??? Is the mindset - "well, it might be a problem for many people but it won't be for me"? or, is it the flat out refusal to believe that these dogs are different than any other dog with the amount of damage they can inflict??? I don't get normal rational people having such a huge draw toward these dogs. There's more than the criminal element and simple ignorance at play here.


Well I chose a pit bull as a pet because all the ones I had been around had fantastic temperaments, they came in the right size for me and had easy to maintain coats. 

I have been around a lot of dogs. I worked at a kennel that did boarding and training. I volunteered with various shelters and rescues. The pits never gave me trouble. I felt more comfortable restraining them for examinations and procedures then many other breeds or types.

They are very personable dogs in my experience. VERY eager to please. Total cuddle bugs. Very affectionate. Goofy and they SMILE. 

I miss my pit boy very much. 

My first hand experience with literally dozens of these dogs made the statistics a moot point. When I do think about them, I also realize that pit bull is a term that has been applied to many many breeds and mixes. They are incredibly popular dogs. And they are especially popular with criminal types (and those who glorify them) who have absolutely no business owning any dog. Those are all factors that skew statistics. There are a lot of breeds out there more dangerous then pits. They are just not popular. 

My thoughts are that the two things all dogs need are training and management. Management is going to vary breed to breed. 

I wouldn't trust a sighthound off leash no matter how well trained it is. 

I wouldn't trust a terrier to be safe around small animals. No matter how well trained it was. 

I wouldn't trust a pit bull to be safe around other dogs. No matter how well trained it was. 

Different management needs for different breeds. My pit was DA. We did a lot of obedience training. Lots and lots of practice on leave it. Lots of desensitizing around other dogs. I was vigilant about keeping him in control. Never took him to dog parks or pet stores. I used a basket muzzle when we went to the vet incase the waiting room was busy and some fool lost control of THEIR dog. I threatened to mace any dog who's owner let bound up to us. I learned how to block. Put my boy in a sit stay told him to leave it and prevented any contact with another dog. I never had an incident in the 12 years I had him.

Even the pits that I had fostered that showed no sign of dog aggression whatsoever. They still were managed in a similar way. 

I understand the breed history. Genetic aggression. I understand that pits don't speak normal dog language. I understand that having a pit in my life that I have to hold myself to a higher standard then most other dog owners. 

I still love 'em. I hope to someday have another one in my life.


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## Stonevintage

Spectrum said:


> Agreed, I have a medium sized back yard, that's approximately 40x60ft long. About 20 minutes a day is all both my dogs need to be completely wasted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pitbulls are 'image' dogs, just the way Golden Retrievers are. I by no means believe that Pit Bulls are gentle giants, and even though I own a pit bull, I understand that all bigger breeds have the potential to really cause damage if not managed properly. Individuals that are drawn to having these dogs many times do so because of the danger they symbolize. To adolescents, it makes them feel more manly. To many(but not all) women, they provide that intimidating look that could grant them much needed protection. The issue is that pit bulls need responsible, proactive owners. Shortcomings from a lack of proper training will be easily evident, compared to other breeds.
> 
> I think the problem ultimately is magnified by the sheer lack of responsibility from many of the people that the dog attracts. I'm sure if you split up the dog attacks based on SES of their owners or even by prior convictions of the owners of the animals, the difference would be seen. In my case, I've told my partner that our pit has to live a perfect life, as the first mistake she makes could easily be her last. Because of that, she's always leashed, and never is placed in a situation where she could cause harm to anyone. My partner's sister, to juxtapose, owns a large 90lb+ pit bull that was never trained. He isn't aggressive to us, but he doesn't have any commands he follows. He's managed by his owner screaming at him to go somewhere. That, scares the crap out of me.
> 
> Dogs like German Shepherds and Dobermans are expensive to own. I feel like that creates a natural barrier to these irresponsible owners. Pit pups are like a 1/5-1/10 of the cost of any of the purebreds mentioned, and that makes it easy for any of these wannabe gangsters to get their hands on them.


There is some stuff out there on SES and dog bites. They do show differences with SES status - but I found this article to be a little more informative as to why SES data may still be off to a point when you reach the middle class masses. "Risk takers" by personality cross over SES boundaries and this may be why seemingly rational, educated people still go for a dog they may be woefully inadequate to properly care for. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...l-characteristics-owners-aggressivedog-breeds


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## Sabis mom

Back to the original topic, yes leashes are unbelievably difficult. You need to hold them and secure them and stuff. Whew! Very complex. 

I own a highly reactive dog. A dog aggressive dog. I could blame it on genetics, I could blame it on my lack of skill. Or I could blame it on the fact that at 5 weeks old she was attacked, and injured, in my yard, by a loose Golden who jumped my fence. She was attacked at 3 months old by a leashed GSD cross, that also bit my husband. She was attacked at 4 months old, and injured, while out for a walk with me, by a loose Rotti. She was attacked, while out for a walk with me, at 6 months old, and I was bitten as well, by a loose BC. She was, I will say assaulted, numerous times, by a yapping little Yorkie cross, while out for a walk with me before she was a year old.
In all of these cases the owners of said dogs failed to exercise proper control of their animals. And that is the problem. I don't care how friendly your dog is, keep it away from me and mine. I have a reasonable expectation that when I am walking on a public street, with my leashed and licensed dog, that I can do so unharrassed and with some measure of peace.
And if you are going shopping, leave your dog at home or properly secure it, away from public access.


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> I wouldn't trust a pit bull to be safe around other dogs. No matter how well trained it was.
> 
> Different management needs for different breeds. My pit was DA. We did a lot of obedience training. Lots and lots of practice on leave it. Lots of desensitizing around other dogs. I was vigilant about keeping him in control. Never took him to dog parks or pet stores. I used a basket muzzle when we went to the vet incase the waiting room was busy and some fool lost control of THEIR dog. I threatened to mace any dog who's owner let bound up to us. I learned how to block. Put my boy in a sit stay told him to leave it and prevented any contact with another dog. I never had an incident in the 12 years I had him.


Seriously, no disrespect intended. What did you find so appealing or fun about this that you would want to own another Pit again?

I would never own a dog of any breed if this were the herioc measures of management and control that I could expect.


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## Stonevintage

voodoolamb said:


> Different management needs for different breeds. My pit was DA. We did a lot of obedience training. Lots and lots of practice on leave it. Lots of desensitizing around other dogs. I was vigilant about keeping him in control. Never took him to dog parks or pet stores. I used a basket muzzle when we went to the vet incase the waiting room was busy and some fool lost control of THEIR dog. I threatened to mace any dog who's owner let bound up to us. I learned how to block. Put my boy in a sit stay told him to leave it and prevented any contact with another dog. I never had an incident in the 12 years I had him.
> 
> Even the pits that I had fostered that showed no sign of dog aggression whatsoever. They still were managed in a similar way.
> 
> I understand the breed history. Genetic aggression. I understand that pits don't speak normal dog language. I understand that having a pit in my life that I have to hold myself to a higher standard then most other dog owners.
> 
> I still love 'em. I hope to someday have another one in my life.


Thank you for your honest and informative post. I am curious as to your thoughts - because you seem well informed and well able to properly care for this breed... What percentage of owners of this breed would you say care for their dogs and exercise the prudence and caution that you did with yours? Do you also believe that the placement of these dog types in inadequate homes by adoption agencies are partially to blame? 

I hope that's not nosey but you are sharing some good information and you "walked the walk" with this dog and respected it's potential.
Thanks!:smile2:


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## LuvShepherds

That is horrible and one reason why I'm always hesitant to walk a dog on a residential street. People are foolish and irresponsible. If my dogs are in the yard, I watch them because we do have wild animals. It's a little better in public places because there are leash laws and people who violate them will get fined if they are caught. When I see an off leash dog I talk to the owner. Most are rude and confrontational but if they realize their unleashed dog can be attacked or run over by a speeding car, they sometimes listen. I never say, You are an idiot but I do tell them about all the dogs that have been run over and killed when owners thought they were proofed off leash.



Sabis mom said:


> Back to the original topic, yes leashes are unbelievably difficult. You need to hold them and secure them and stuff. Whew! Very complex.
> 
> I own a highly reactive dog. A dog aggressive dog. I could blame it on genetics, I could blame it on my lack of skill. Or I could blame it on the fact that at 5 weeks old she was attacked, and injured, in my yard, by a loose Golden who jumped my fence. She was attacked at 3 months old by a leashed GSD cross, that also bit my husband. She was attacked at 4 months old, and injured, while out for a walk with me, by a loose Rotti. She was attacked, while out for a walk with me, at 6 months old, and I was bitten as well, by a loose BC. She was, I will say assaulted, numerous times, by a yapping little Yorkie cross, while out for a walk with me before she was a year old.
> In all of these cases the owners of said dogs failed to exercise proper control of their animals. And that is the problem. I don't care how friendly your dog is, keep it away from me and mine. I have a reasonable expectation that when I am walking on a public street, with my leashed and licensed dog, that I can do so unharrassed and with some measure of peace.
> And if you are going shopping, leave your dog at home or properly secure it, away from public access.


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## voodoolamb

> Seriously, no disrespect intended. What did you find so appealing or fun about this that you would want to own another Pit again?
> 
> I would never own a dog of any breed if this were the herioc measures of management and control that I could expect.


I just don't consider what I had to do to manage my pit to be all that labor intensive. It's not really much different then what I do with my shepherd - except the muzzle at the vet's office. I don't see a need for my dog to interact with other dogs. I have mixed feelings about dog parks and could take them or leave them. When I am out and about with the dogs they are on a leash anyways most of the time. With my pit if I did have him off leash and another dog appeared it was as simple as calling him to me and clipping the lead on. That's where the obedience work came in. Nothing I would consider heroic efforts.

Pits have a personality that I enjoy. So eager to please, even more so then the shepherds I know. Goofy, clownish dogs. Yet tenacious. They want to be with their people. I never met a dog that wants and enjoys to cuddle as much as a typical pit does. They are in your pocket type dogs. Most are pretty laid back dogs. Athletic but lazy around the house. They are pretty much up for anything you throw at them. 

Plus they are fairly healthy dogs and are easy keepers.


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## voodoolamb

Oh just wanted to add about muzzling at the vet's - never once was the muzzle necessary. My pit never made a move towards another dog there. 

That was just me being cautious. Small waiting room. A dog could be right up in mine's business before hitting the end of a 6 foot lead. It's a high stress environment and I just didn't want to take chances.


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## voodoolamb

> Thank you for your honest and informative post. I am curious as to your thoughts - because you seem well informed and well able to properly care for this breed... What percentage of owners of this breed would you say care for their dogs and exercise the prudence and caution that you did with yours? Do you also believe that the placement of these dog types in inadequate homes by adoption agencies are partially to blame?
> 
> I hope that's not nosey but you are sharing some good information and you "walked the walk" with this dog and respected it's potential.
> Thanks!


No problem. I'm passionate about pitties. I could talk about them all day. I like to think though that I am realistic about what they are though.

It seems to me that with pit bulls one side feels they are unpredictable and dangerous dogs no matter what. The other side proclaims that they are just like any other dog and discrimination against them is akin to racism. 

Like most things however. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle there. Both sides are harming their cause.

By maintaining that ALL pit bulls are blood thirsty killers ALL of the time or will turn and become a bloody thirsty killer in time, the anti pit crowd loses credence with anyone who actually understands the breed.

Then you have the pit bull advocates. Many of which are woefully ignorant of a pit bull's inherent aggression. The vast majority of pit bull owners while well intentioned are irresponsible in my opinion. I occasionally go to the dog park. I try to stay off to the side and not allow my guy to mess with the other dogs. We play fetch and work on obedience in the high distraction environment. At any given time 1/2 the dogs in the park are pits. IMHO any pit owner who takes their dog to an off leash dog park and lets it off leash is irresponsible. They are not good canidates for this. These are people who love their dogs for sure, but are not realistic about what their dogs are. And I get that. Having lived with pits and seeing them as nothing but sweet cuddle bugs 99% of the time, it's easy to forget their gladiator nature. But Anywho the pit bull advocates damage their breed by allowing situations where a pit can act on its aggressive tendencies. Further fueling the former's anti pit cause. 

Pits are a whole other ball game in terms of their body language. A lot of the warning signs we all know as "stuff is about to get real" have been bred out of them. To make them better fighters. No stiff body postures, no hackles raised, no growls. An illegal dog fight is eerily silent. This makes situations with other dogs escalate quickly. Pits don't speak good dog language their signs of stress are much more subtle. This also makes it APPEAR to people that the pit attacks for no reason. 

As for the rescues placing them in unsuitable homes - i have been disillusioned with rescues for while now. Just in general. They do what they can, but it seems emotions run too high in that community to make good decisions. Not just in regards to pits, but in general. There are some good organizations out there. Just not enough.

All and all there need to be more responsible dog owners across the board with EVERY dog breed. But let's face it. If you are irresponsible with a lab chances are nothing bad will happen. Those of us with pits, rotties, dobies, akitas, shepherds and other breeds faced with BSL need to hold ourselves to higher standards if we want to keep our dogs.


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## RockyK9

No, there are many therapy dogs who are "pitbulls" . They are not a recognizable breed. Their "derivatives" ? Come on. Most people think anything crossed with any terrier is a "Pitbull". Thats garbage. "Pitbulls" as I see them are great dogs , friendly with people , can be dog aggressive but most seems not to be. The most discriminated breed by far. And the APBT as described by breed standard is NOT what most people refer to as a Pitbull today. Please do your research.


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## Stonevintage

That's a great point of view. As Carmen said "Nobody has a dog that is guaranteed 100% on recall". This ties in with the other conversation regarding GSD's loose in "my own front yard". It's still playing the odds that nothing out of the blue or unexpected will happen while you do not have secure control of your dog. 

Did you get a chance to read the article I attached to that post? Most of it was pretty bla bla bla but I can't help but think that part about the risk taking personality may be a part of the problem with potentially dangerous dogs causing problems. All owners don't fit into one group and I'm sure many are sorry as heck when their dog does bite. It's too bad there isn't some assessment test that can be given to people who want to adopt a potentially dangerous breed to see if they are risk takers and maybe less likely to provide adequate precautions with that dog..... Just a thought - if true it would explain more to me about the complexity of the problem and why it persists.


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## RockyK9

GSD's are also not great as "dog park dogs" .


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## GypsyGhost

voodoolamb said:


> No problem. I'm passionate about pitties. I could talk about them all day. I like to think though that I am realistic about what they are though.
> 
> It seems to me that with pit bulls one side feels they are unpredictable and dangerous dogs no matter what. The other side proclaims that they are just like any other dog and discrimination against them is akin to racism.
> 
> Like most things however. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle there. Both sides are harming their cause.
> 
> By maintaining that ALL pit bulls are blood thirsty killers ALL of the time or will turn and become a bloody thirsty killer in time, the anti pit crowd loses credence with anyone who actually understands the breed.
> 
> Then you have the pit bull advocates. Many of which are woefully ignorant of a pit bull's inherent aggression. The vast majority of pit bull owners while well intentioned are irresponsible in my opinion. I occasionally go to the dog park. I try to stay off to the side and not allow my guy to mess with the other dogs. We play fetch and work on obedience in the high distraction environment. At any given time 1/2 the dogs in the park are pits. IMHO any pit owner who takes their dog to an off leash dog park and lets it off leash is irresponsible. They are not good canidates for this. These are people who love their dogs for sure, but are not realistic about what their dogs are. And I get that. Having lived with pits and seeing them as nothing but sweet cuddle bugs 99% of the time, it's easy to forget their gladiator nature. But Anywho the pit bull advocates damage their breed by allowing situations where a pit can act on its aggressive tendencies. Further fueling the former's anti pit cause.
> 
> Pits are a whole other ball game in terms of their body language. A lot of the warning signs we all know as "stuff is about to get real" have been bred out of them. To make them better fighters. No stiff body postures, no hackles raised, no growls. An illegal dog fight is eerily silent. This makes situations with other dogs escalate quickly. Pits don't speak good dog language their signs of stress are much more subtle. This also makes it APPEAR to people that the pit attacks for no reason.
> 
> As for the rescues placing them in unsuitable homes - i have been disillusioned with rescues for while now. Just in general. They do what they can, but it seems emotions run too high in that community to make good decisions. Not just in regards to pits, but in general. There are some good organizations out there. Just not enough.
> 
> All and all there need to be more responsible dog owners across the board with EVERY dog breed. But let's face it. If you are irresponsible with a lab chances are nothing bad will happen. Those of us with pits, rotties, dobies, akitas, shepherds and other breeds faced with BSL need to hold ourselves to higher standards if we want to keep our dogs.


Couldn't have said any of this better myself.


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## RockyK9

Agreed. The responsibility is with the owners...nothing to do with the breed.


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## Sabis mom

mattpayne said:


> GSD's are also not great as "dog park dogs" .


We aren't talking about dog parks. Or pitbulls for that matter. This is about responsible dog ownership. Our right to walk down a sidewalk, or into a store, without worrying about some dog.
We just happen to have a couple of realistic and responsible pit owners on this forum.

But of topic, pitties wouldn't be so badly discriminated against if so many stupid people didn't own them.


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## Stonevintage

The responsibility is ultimately with the owners...

but it's also with dog adoption agencies that do not properly place these dogs,

and it's also with risk taking owners who refuse to believe that there is any difference between breeds and that some breeds do merit extra precautions.

When I owned by GSD/AST I was a risk taker personality big time. I also owned a GSD/Wolf cross and they ran loose in most of the states that we lived in (out in the country/never in the city). When I look back at some of the potential disaster I set myself up for (this was 35 years ago) I really can't imagine what I was thinking (or not).


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## voodoolamb

Yes, I read the article. It is definitely food for thought. I'm not sure where I fit into the spectrum myself. I mean I have always had one of the "dangerous" breeds. However I never went in for the image - i mean I actually knitted a floofy purple sweater for my pit and bought him a teddy bear that played lullaby music. 

I might be considered a risk taker/sensation seeker. I've gone sky diving and enjoy white water kayaking. 

But I was always very cautious when it came to managing my dog.

I see a lot of pits with the yuppie crowd and a lot of pits with the gang bangers. The former expect their pit to act like their doodle. The later expect an extension of masculinity from their dogs. Both of which spells disaster.


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## Baillif

Yeah man when did hipsters and pitbulls become a thing? It's like part of the checklist. Bag of fair trade coffee, Prius, vintage clothes, Pitbull with temperament problems, pretending to care about your carbon footprint.


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## voodoolamb

Baillif said:


> Yeah man when did hipsters and pitbulls become a thing?


Ha yes! Hipsters. That is what they are called. On a side note does anyone use "yuppie" anymore?


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## llombardo

voodoolamb said:


> No problem. I'm passionate about pitties. I could talk about them all day. I like to think though that I am realistic about what they are though.
> 
> It seems to me that with pit bulls one side feels they are unpredictable and dangerous dogs no matter what. The other side proclaims that they are just like any other dog and discrimination against them is akin to racism.
> 
> Like most things however. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle there. Both sides are harming their cause.
> 
> By maintaining that ALL pit bulls are blood thirsty killers ALL of the time or will turn and become a bloody thirsty killer in time, the anti pit crowd loses credence with anyone who actually understands the breed.
> 
> Then you have the pit bull advocates. Many of which are woefully ignorant of a pit bull's inherent aggression. The vast majority of pit bull owners while well intentioned are irresponsible in my opinion. I occasionally go to the dog park. I try to stay off to the side and not allow my guy to mess with the other dogs. We play fetch and work on obedience in the high distraction environment. At any given time 1/2 the dogs in the park are pits. IMHO any pit owner who takes their dog to an off leash dog park and lets it off leash is irresponsible. They are not good canidates for this. These are people who love their dogs for sure, but are not realistic about what their dogs are. And I get that. Having lived with pits and seeing them as nothing but sweet cuddle bugs 99% of the time, it's easy to forget their gladiator nature. But Anywho the pit bull advocates damage their breed by allowing situations where a pit can act on its aggressive tendencies. Further fueling the former's anti pit cause.
> 
> Pits are a whole other ball game in terms of their body language. A lot of the warning signs we all know as "stuff is about to get real" have been bred out of them. To make them better fighters. No stiff body postures, no hackles raised, no growls. An illegal dog fight is eerily silent. This makes situations with other dogs escalate quickly. Pits don't speak good dog language their signs of stress are much more subtle. This also makes it APPEAR to people that the pit attacks for no reason.
> 
> As for the rescues placing them in unsuitable homes - i have been disillusioned with rescues for while now. Just in general. They do what they can, but it seems emotions run too high in that community to make good decisions. Not just in regards to pits, but in general. There are some good organizations out there. Just not enough.
> 
> All and all there need to be more responsible dog owners across the board with EVERY dog breed. But let's face it. If you are irresponsible with a lab chances are nothing bad will happen. Those of us with pits, rotties, dobies, akitas, shepherds and other breeds faced with BSL need to hold ourselves to higher standards if we want to keep our dogs.



I am in the same category as you with the breed. I will say that all the Pitts I see at the dog park are not an issue, it's the GSDs and believe it or not the retrievers(golden and lab). Most of the retrievers are growling holding their toy while swimming and the GSDs stalk the other dogs. One owner had one of each by herself--disaster waiting to happen.


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## Stonevintage

Lol - yea, jumping out of a perfectly good airplane would probably fit that personality trait. But, you also had working knowledge about the breed before you owned one. I'm more thinking about the people who don't have that exposure. Risk taking is just a personality trait - not good or bad - but I can see where it could be useful information. Some of the questions on adoption forms today - they do get very detailed.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Oh boy, the pit bull thing is a big pet peave of mine. I have one who boards with me, who ironically has some of the best social skills of any boarder I get. To be fair she is a mix, but very pit type, probably 80-90 percent. I REALLY like her I like almost everything about her. I think I understand what it is people go so crazy for because she is just a love, and almost human in her face, her expressions, the way she communicates with me.

Dogs who have been selectively bred for a certain trait for hundreds of generations are more likely to express that trait. The end. This particular set of traits is incredibly destructive. They kill dogs, sometimes they kill people. Sometimes other dogs kill dogs and people too, but not as often as pitbull type dogs do.

There are still plenty of people breeding them for fighting, and I am certain that those genetics do wind up in the hands of non fighters and running the streets. They are also very with hog hunters in the south as catch dogs, and I would guess that a lot of the same qualities that make them good fighters make them good catch dogs. Most of these people keep their dogs intact, = more of the wrong types of dogs running at large, getting picked up by AC a d sometimes getting hauled up north to be adopted out to rich New Englanders to be their Pibble Furbaby.

Dog fighting is illegal, and there is no reaso to perpetuate a breed whose sole purpose is illegal. I think national legislation ought to sterilize most of not all of them. Want to save some really special ones as foundation stock to be a new breed (call them Pibbles!!) Where the dangerous stuff is deliberately bred back out of them, go for it. Don't sieze anybody's pet just require them alk to be speutered and let them live out their lives with their families. Most of them aren't registered and have no legitimate reason breeding anyway. This would spare 1000's of dogs a miserable life and death on the euth table at our nation's shelters.


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## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> Yeah man when did hipsters and pitbulls become a thing? It's like part of the checklist. Bag of fair trade coffee, Prius, vintage clothes, Pitbull with temperament problems, pretending to care about your carbon footprint.


Exactly! and this is what I think I'm seeing in my neighborhood. It's exactly what made me question where this is coming from. These aren't your angry X-cons or ignorant, non-caring rebellious peeps. It doesn't appear that they are much more responsible though.....


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## voodoolamb

> But of topic, pitties wouldn't be so badly discriminated against if so many stupid people didn't own them.


This. 

*sigh* 

It irks me. I like pits. I managed mine well. Idiots make it difficult for me to enjoy the breed I love. 

Atleast bull terriers are less often included in the discrimination. From what I understand they have similar temperaments. I could learn to love that nose lol


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## Baillif

Big part of the problem is they are freakin cute as **** as puppies. They can be really good looking adults too.


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## voodoolamb

Stonevintage said:


> Exactly! and this is what I think I'm seeing in my neighborhood. It's exactly what made me question where this is coming from. These aren't your angry X-cons or ignorant, non-caring rebellious peeps. It doesn't appear that they are much more responsible though.....


I think it is the discrimination and the BSL that actually draw these type of people to these dogs. 

Social Justice Warriors saving the poor whittle puppies. Cause racism is bad mkay.


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## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> When I look back at some of the potential disaster I set myself up for (this was 35 years ago) I really can't imagine what I was thinking (or not).


FB post.
My entire life can be summed up in one sentence, Well that didn't go as planned!

I swear Stone, you and I share a brain.


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## Stonevintage

That article also said that the insurance companies draw from statistical data and;

The six breeds most commonly identified as high risk for aggression are the Akita, Chow Chow, Doberman Pinscher, Pit Bull (usually includes Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers), Rottweiler and Wolf-hybrids.

When did the GSD get drawn into that list by the insurance companies? As far as I can tell - it happened sometime after 2009. Is the Mal also on it now too?

From the different sites I have looked at in the past year - showing dog bite data back 15-20 years, the GSD was always there but didn't show up on the "list" until sometime after 2009. In one article I did remember reading that some of the bites registered were by dogs doing their job (PP work or similar) - maybe that was why they were omitted for so long?


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## LuvShepherds

I have never owned one but according to my neighbor who owns two Bulldogs (don't ask me if they are Pitts, I honestly can't tell) said that they aren't very smart (hers) and need weeks of training to learn even one thing. So I can see where owners run out of motivation and energy to train their dogs perfectly. I know they need a lot of socialization, maybe even more than other breeds.


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## Spectrum

Stonevintage said:


> Lol - yea, jumping out of a perfectly good airplane would probably fit that personality trait. But, you also had working knowledge about the breed before you owned one. I'm more thinking about the people who don't have that exposure. Risk taking is just a personality trait - not good or bad - but I can see where it could be useful information. Some of the questions on adoption forms today - they do get very detailed.


People are just impulsive. Look at the constant stream of stories coming out now about people being scammed by 'teacup' pigs. You would think that signing on to raising an animal for 6-10 years would lead to a great deal of research prior to signing on to that commitment. Yet people are complaining more and more each day, despite a quick google search can tell you that the concept doesn't really exist. 

And I'd question the "risk-taker" tag that the article mentions, because their sample size is based off of college students. Considering that the average age of college student attendance is 18-22, they don't even have a fully developed frontal lobe. The results are going to naturally lean to more impulsive behavior that way anyway. 

They should be doing this study over a much larger sample size, keeping all kinds of SES in mind. Criminal records from the first study, however is pretty interesting. Just needs more than ~180 people to gain momentum.


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## SuperG

Pitbull...mix ...PitX this that or another thing.....I view them as somewhat intimidating from the get go.
Formidable dogs not always ending up in proper adequate hands. Some are a disaster waiting to happen....then again, some I've met are great dogs. Seems to me the common denominator was a more savvy dog owner when it came to the great ones I've met.

SuperG


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## RockyK9

Sabis mom said:


> We aren't talking about dog parks. Or pitbulls for that matter. This is about responsible dog ownership. Our right to walk down a sidewalk, or into a store, without worrying about some dog.
> We just happen to have a couple of realistic and responsible pit owners on this forum.
> 
> But of topic, pitties wouldn't be so badly discriminated against if so many stupid people didn't own them.


 Well we are talking about dogs and temperaments so yes dog parks have been mentioned relating to the behaviour of Pitts. My point was GSD's are as bad as Pitts in dog parks if not worse. Thanks .


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## LuvShepherds

Dogs that body slam when playing don't do well at dog parks. Pitts do and another breed, but I don't know which one. I was told this by a rescue group that won't take mixes with Pitts or the other breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> No problem. I'm passionate about pitties. I could talk about them all day. I like to think though that I am realistic about what they are though.
> 
> It seems to me that with pit bulls one side feels they are unpredictable and dangerous dogs no matter what. The other side proclaims that they are just like any other dog and discrimination against them is akin to racism.
> 
> Like most things however. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle there. Both sides are harming their cause.
> 
> By maintaining that ALL pit bulls are blood thirsty killers ALL of the time or will turn and become a bloody thirsty killer in time, the anti pit crowd loses credence with anyone who actually understands the breed.
> 
> Then you have the pit bull advocates. Many of which are woefully ignorant of a pit bull's inherent aggression. The vast majority of pit bull owners while well intentioned are irresponsible in my opinion. I occasionally go to the dog park. I try to stay off to the side and not allow my guy to mess with the other dogs. We play fetch and work on obedience in the high distraction environment. At any given time 1/2 the dogs in the park are pits. IMHO any pit owner who takes their dog to an off leash dog park and lets it off leash is irresponsible. They are not good canidates for this. These are people who love their dogs for sure, but are not realistic about what their dogs are. And I get that. Having lived with pits and seeing them as nothing but sweet cuddle bugs 99% of the time, it's easy to forget their gladiator nature. But Anywho the pit bull advocates damage their breed by allowing situations where a pit can act on its aggressive tendencies. Further fueling the former's anti pit cause.
> 
> Pits are a whole other ball game in terms of their body language. A lot of the warning signs we all know as "stuff is about to get real" have been bred out of them. To make them better fighters. No stiff body postures, no hackles raised, no growls. An illegal dog fight is eerily silent. This makes situations with other dogs escalate quickly. Pits don't speak good dog language their signs of stress are much more subtle. This also makes it APPEAR to people that the pit attacks for no reason.
> 
> As for the rescues placing them in unsuitable homes - i have been disillusioned with rescues for while now. Just in general. They do what they can, but it seems emotions run too high in that community to make good decisions. Not just in regards to pits, but in general. There are some good organizations out there. Just not enough.
> 
> All and all there need to be more responsible dog owners across the board with EVERY dog breed. But let's face it. If you are irresponsible with a lab chances are nothing bad will happen. Those of us with pits, rotties, dobies, akitas, shepherds and other breeds faced with BSL need to hold ourselves to higher standards if we want to keep our dogs.


I came a split second away from liking this post, until I read the last paragraph. Those of us with Rotts, Dobes, Akitas, Shepherds, etc., are faced more and more with the threat of BSL by the very same people that both you and I agree have are the problem with Pit Bulls. This is one reason I think those that those who own these breeds, including those who responsibly own Pit Bulls, need to do something about the problem before it strikes our breeds, or in the case of Pit Bulls, which are already being hit.


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## MineAreWorkingline

mattpayne said:


> Well we are talking about dogs and temperaments so yes dog parks have been mentioned relating to the behaviour of Pitts. My point was GSD's are as bad as Pitts in dog parks if not worse. Thanks .


Do you really take your dogs regularly to dog parks to speak from experience? 

If you rely on what many people on here have to say about dog parks, I would take much of it with a grain of salt as if you follow their posts, you would find that most of them are only parroting what they have read or heard, but not experienced long term.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> Dogs that body slam when playing don't do well at dog parks. Pitts do and another breed, but I don't know which one. I was told this by a rescue group that won't take mixes with Pitts or the other breed.


My main problem with Pit Bulls is not the dog aggression. I really don't care if they start fights or attack people. My problem is that they latch on and don't let go. There was a recent Pit Bull attack where SIX adults could not remove the attacking Pit Bull from its victim. That is my problem. If six adults can't handle a Pit, how can any one single, inexperienced person keep others safe when out in public? Look at the therapy Pit Bull video I posted earlier, this is the rule, not the exception.


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## Sabis mom

mattpayne said:


> Well we are talking about dogs and temperaments so yes dog parks have been mentioned relating to the behaviour of Pitts. My point was GSD's are as bad as Pitts in dog parks if not worse. Thanks .


And that is exactly the attitude that gets dogs into trouble. Your dog is as bad as mine! Who cares! Mind your own dog, let me mind mine. It is this blindness that has people who do love pibbles steamed. If there is any hope of saving the 'breed' it is going to come from people who recognize and respect what this dog is and what it is capable of. Not from the 'advocates' who promote it as the best dog ever, every one should get two, other breeds are just as bad.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> And that is exactly the attitude that gets dogs into trouble. Your dog is as bad as mine! Who cares! Mind your own dog, let me mind mine. It is this blindness that has people who do love pibbles steamed. If there is any hope of saving the 'breed' it is going to come from people who recognize and respect what this dog is and what it is capable of. Not from the 'advocates' who promote it as the best dog ever, every one should get two, other breeds are just as bad.


Dang! Where is the applause button?


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## llombardo

Like it or not GSDs, Dobes, Rotts and now Pits have all faced issues. I think the pits have struggled by far the longest because they are just everywhere. I'm not sure what the cases were with the first three, but at one time they all have been targeted for one reason or another.


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## voodoolamb

> I came a split second away from liking this post, until I read the last paragraph. Those of us with Rotts, Dobes, Akitas, Shepherds, etc., are faced more and more with the threat of BSL by the very same people that both you and I agree have are the problem with Pit Bulls. This is one reason I think those that those who own these breeds, including those who responsibly own Pit Bulls, need to do something about the problem before it strikes our breeds, or in the case of Pit Bulls, which are already being hit.


Exactly why we have to hold ourselves to higher standards. If you own a dog that the general public considers "dangerous" you don't get to screw up. The first step in saving a breed from BSL is making sure there are stable dogs. Good breed ambassadors in the hands of responsible owners. 

My girlfriend lives in a community that the HOA prohibits shepherds. She didn't realize it until she had got a nasty nag letter telling her to remove the dog from the premises after I had visited her one day with my dog and she invited us both in.



> My main problem with Pit Bulls is not the dog aggression. I really don't care if they start fights or attack people. My problem is that they latch on and don't let go. There was a recent Pit Bull attack where SIX adults could not remove the attacking Pit Bull from its victim. That is my problem. If six adults can't handle a Pit, how can any one single, inexperienced person keep others safe when out in public? Look at the therapy Pit Bull video I posted earlier, this is the rule, not the exception.


Which is why inexperienced people should not have pits. Pits have to be in drive to latch on. You have to know your dog and know how to recognize the signs of him revving up. It's no different then owning a drivey bitey mal or shepherd.

Responsible pit owners also carry break sticks. They are easy to master. I could break a pits grip with that tool in 30 seconds. And yes I have done so. Once on my neighbor's pit and once on my own Pit - though mine was NOT on another dog. Freak Accident playing with a spring pole. He got bit by a copperhead and was in such high drive he didn't even notice. I had to get him off asap to get him to the ER vet.


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## MineAreWorkingline

That is simply not true, when those breeds were targeted, human fatalities by dog bites were in the single digits per year, usually you can count them on one hand and those breeds were not renowned for mauling and killing other people's pets.

In 2015 alone, there were over three dozen deaths, nearly 85% by Pit Bulls.









Everybody is trying to have an adult rational conversation, stop playing the pity card for the maulers while dismissing the victims. 

If you want to play pity party, here are some victims for you, feel sorry for them all you want:


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Exactly why we have to hold ourselves to higher standards. If you own a dog that the general public considers "dangerous" you don't get to screw up. The first step in saving a breed from BSL is making sure there are stable dogs. Good breed ambassadors in the hands of responsible owners.
> 
> My girlfriend lives in a community that the HOA prohibits shepherds. She didn't realize it until she had got a nasty nag letter telling her to remove the dog from the premises after I had visited her one day with my dog and she invited us both in.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why inexperienced people should not have pits. Pits have to be in drive to latch on. You have to know your dog and know how to recognize the signs of him revving up. It's no different then owning a drivey bitey mal or shepherd.
> 
> Responsible pit owners also carry break sticks. They are easy to master. I could break a pits grip with that tool in 30 seconds. And yes I have done so. Once on my neighbor's pit and once on my own Pit - though mine was NOT on another dog. Freak Accident playing with a spring pole. He got bit by a copperhead and was in such high drive he didn't even notice. I had to get him off asap to get him to the ER vet.


The only thing stopping me from liking this post was the comment on drivey bitey Shepherds. My dogs have never latched onto any living creature and needed heroic efforts to remove them.


----------



## Stonevintage

I can't really see much of a comparison there as to what happened with the other breeds in the past. If I recall correctly - I never remember the GSD having as bad a rep. This because there were so many performing seeing eye, police and military work. They represented a positive image to the public in their performance and people had to acknowledge that as it was right their in front of their faces daily. The Rott and the Dobi were always fairly pricey breeds to own and the owners didn't let them stray much. Most of the problems happened with assigning guard dog duties without care of proper training. 

I'm afraid this is something different. It's very prolonged. The #'s are getting worse instead of better. They are relatively inexpensive dogs to own and criminals, kids and the irresponsible did not all adopt one of those other breeds back in time. That in addition to the nature of the damage they can do is all different in that they don't let go.

None of these breeds would have gotten out of hot water had denial persisted and education and training not advanced with responsible owners. That's the only way they moved out of the limelight for bad behavior and that's the only way out for this breed.


----------



## voodoolamb

> The only thing stopping me from liking this post was the comment on drivey bitey Shepherds. My dogs have never latched onto any living creature and needed heroic efforts to remove them.


There is no denying a dog in high drive is dangerous. Just look at Victoria stillwell's recent bite. Unexperienced with working dogs got bit by a mal in high drive. 

Look at all the working shepherds that come up the leash at their handler. 

I don't see how as a pet owner managing a pit and keeping him of drive while in public is any different then people who have civil breeds who do the same thing.

ETA: none of my dog's ever latched onto a living creature and need heroic efforts to pry them off either


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> There is no denying a dog in high drive is dangerous. Just look at Victoria still well's recent post. Unexperienced with working dogs got bit by a mal in high drive.
> 
> Look at all the working shepherds that come up the leash at their handler.
> 
> I don't see how as a pet owner managing a pit and keeping him of drive while in public is any different then people who have civil breeds who do the same thing.


I disagree. Victoria Stillwell was not handling that dog, and no where did I read that they had difficulty removing the dog from her. 

I would bet the same can be said about most of the GSDs that come up the leash and I don't think it is all that common among those that own them as pets or hobbies.

Your Pits might never have latched onto a living creature, but way too many Pits have.


----------



## Niexist

The problem is that if even only 10% of the pit bull owner population is irresponsible, we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of dogs.


----------



## voodoolamb

> I disagree. Victoria Stillwell was not handling that dog, and no where did I read that they had difficulty removing the dog from her.
> 
> I would bet the same can be said about most of the GSDs that come up the leash and I don't think it is all that common among those that own them as pets or hobbies.
> 
> Your Pits might never have latched onto a living creature, but way too many Pits have.


I brought up the VS thing to illustrate that dogs in drive are dangerous to bystanders.

The way I see it, a bite is a bite. I'm going to be in the same doodoo regardless on if my shepherd bites someone or if my pit does. 

I don't allow my dog's to get drivey and revved up in public. It's that simple. 

To me the latching on thing is a none issue to me, because my dog needs to keep his teeth to himself when dealing with the innocent public. The teeth being on for a split second is just as unacceptable to me as a bite and hold. 

The only bad bites I've gotten were from shepherds. I don't let my dog's interact with strange dogs so I haven't had an issue with them getting attacked by any breed.


----------



## Stonevintage

Niexist said:


> The problem is that if even only 10% of the pit bull owner population is irresponsible, we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of dogs.


That doesn't diminish the problem. That only makes it harder to resolve without a breed ban.


----------



## Baillif

If you have a really high drive dog that isn't trained to out properly they can latch and it will take crazy effort to get them off especially if they are hard dogs. It isn't just something that happens with pits. If you try to remove Crank from a bite without using a command you are in for a very very tough struggle. He would sooner be choked unconscious than give a bite up without using obedience. I've seen other mals and GSD that are the same way. You put a dog like that out there where someone doesn't know how to put the obedience on the dog necessary to get the out to happen and you'll end up with the same issues as the pits.

The biggest problem is you have exactly that same situation happening in households across the country with pits. I guarantee you if the working line mal was as popular as the pitbull or pit mixes are the same issues would be happening especially if they were breeding insensitive mals like crazy. They would be chasing down kids and biting them just because they were running and waving their arms around like kids do. They would be killing cats and squirrels and small neighborhood dogs too.


----------



## Niexist

Stonevintage said:


> That doesn't diminish the problem. That only makes it harder to resolve without a breed ban.


It makes it worse in my opinion.

I don't know about other states, but in California if you go to any shelter you'll see 50 chihuahuas, 50 pit bulls, and 5 other dogs.

Also to compare a german shepherd to a pitbull is silly. You're talking about the number one dog used for police work. When was the last time that you saw a pitbull k9 unit?


----------



## Spectrum

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The only thing stopping me from liking this post was the comment on drivey bitey Shepherds. My dogs have never latched onto any living creature and needed heroic efforts to remove them.



To be fair, both parts of that were through anecdotal evidence. 

"I read about this, therefore it's universal." "That's not true, MY dog hasn't done anything like that"

I don't consider myself an advocate, but I do resent the whole "they don't let go!" claims, as they're remnants of the lock-jaw myth from before. 

As mentioned constantly. Pit Bulls have a heightened risk, but that's magnified because of how cheap they are to get. If German Shepherds/Dobermans/Rottiess became $100-200 a pup, then you'd start seeing them used by all the irresponsible AND violence prone individuals, driving up the price. 

I also feel like it's confirmation bias, to an extent. Dogs that don't carry the reputation and bite can be forgiven and not reported. Pit Bull bites and 'perceived' aggression is causes a lot more of a reaction.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> I brought up the VS thing to illustrate that dogs in drive are dangerous to bystanders.
> 
> The way I see it, a bite is a bite. I'm going to be in the same doodoo regardless on if my shepherd bites someone or if my pit does.
> 
> I don't allow my dog's to get drivey and revved up in public. It's that simple.
> 
> To me the latching on thing is a none issue to me, because my dog needs to keep his teeth to himself when dealing with the innocent public. The teeth being on for a split second is just as unacceptable to me as a bite and hold.
> 
> The only bad bites I've gotten were from shepherds. I don't let my dog's interact with strange dogs so I haven't had an issue with them getting attacked by any breed.


That is easy to say when it is your dog doing the gripping. 

There is no way you can compare the grip and hold of a Pit Bull to that of other breeds. It is very common for the Pit to remove mouth fulls of flesh.


----------



## Baillif

Ask David Winners if a GSD can remove a mouthful of flesh. He had a dog rip the bicep off a guys arm.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> If you have a really high drive dog that isn't trained to out properly they can latch and it will take crazy effort to get them off especially if they are hard dogs. It isn't just something that happens with pits. If you try to remove Crank from a bite without using a command you are in for a very very tough struggle. He would sooner be choked unconscious than give a bite up without using obedience. I've seen other mals and GSD that are the same way. You put a dog like that out there where someone doesn't know how to put the obedience on the dog necessary to get the out to happen and you'll end up with the same issues as the pits.
> 
> The biggest problem is you have exactly that same situation happening in households across the country with pits. I guarantee you if the working line mal was as popular as the pitbull or pit mixes are the same issues would be happening especially if they were breeding insensitive mals like crazy. They would be chasing down kids and biting them just because they were running and waving their arms around like kids do. They would be killing cats and squirrels and small neighborhood dogs too.


You can see the gripping in young Mal puppies, unlike most other breeds of dogs. I am not a Mal person so I can't say whether it has been taught or not. Most young GSD pups I am familiar with have to be trained to grip and hold on. Poor grips are a problem with many workingline GSDs. This is why many Mals, and some GSDs are not recommended for JQP.


----------



## Spectrum

In terms of bite strength, I'm pretty sure that pits and GSD have very comparable strengths. Obviously that's only one component, but it's not as if a Pit is the canine equivalent of the hulk.


----------



## Stonevintage

Spectrum said:


> To be fair, both parts of that were through anecdotal evidence.
> 
> "I read about this, therefore it's universal." "That's not true, MY dog hasn't done anything like that"
> 
> I don't consider myself an advocate, but I do resent the whole "they don't let go!" claims, as they're remnants of the lock-jaw myth from before.
> 
> As mentioned constantly. Pit Bulls have a heightened risk, but that's magnified because of how cheap they are to get. If German Shepherds/Dobermans/Rottiess became $100-200 a pup, then you'd start seeing them used by all the irresponsible AND violence prone individuals, driving up the price.
> 
> I also feel like it's confirmation bias, to an extent. Dogs that don't carry the reputation and bite can be forgiven and not reported. Pit Bull bites and 'perceived' aggression is causes a lot more of a reaction.


You must be saying then that the enforcement agencies that provide numbers for the top 6 breeds are falsifying records. You must also be implying that bite sticks are carried by responsible pit owners for no good reason. The lock-jaw myth came to be because of the obvious perception. The difficulty getting them to release is real. If it wasn't for that cold hard reality of this one fact- I would not have the extra concern I do about encountering an aggressive loose dog of this breed. No more so than any other breed on the 6 list.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Spectrum said:


> To be fair, both parts of that were through anecdotal evidence.
> 
> "I read about this, therefore it's universal." "That's not true, MY dog hasn't done anything like that"
> 
> I don't consider myself an advocate, but I do resent the whole "they don't let go!" claims, as they're remnants of the lock-jaw myth from before.
> 
> As mentioned constantly. Pit Bulls have a heightened risk, but that's magnified because of how cheap they are to get. If German Shepherds/Dobermans/Rottiess became $100-200 a pup, then you'd start seeing them used by all the irresponsible AND violence prone individuals, driving up the price.
> 
> I also feel like it's confirmation bias, to an extent. Dogs that don't carry the reputation and bite can be forgiven and not reported. Pit Bull bites and 'perceived' aggression is causes a lot more of a reaction.


No, it is not a remnant of the lockjaw theory. Perhaps you should speak to those who have bred, raised and trained them in work venues.

Pit Bulls grip and don't let go, it has nothing to do with old wives' tales of locking jaws. It has everything to do with the breed and genetics.

Do you really think that the nearly 85% of dog bite related fatalities is perceived?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> Ask David Winners if a GSD can remove a mouthful of flesh. He had a dog rip the bicep off a guys arm.


Yep, I am sure you can find that sporadically throughout some breeds, but the difference lies is the oddity vs the routine.

It brings to mind the woman that fed a Pit Bull her own hunks of flesh that the Pit Bull had ripped off that were laying around to deflect the Pit from her so she can escape to safety and save herself.


----------



## Spectrum

Stonevintage said:


> You must be saying then that the enforcement agencies that provide numbers for the top 6 breeds are falsifying records. You must also be implying that bite sticks are carried by responsible pit owners for no good reason. The lock-jaw myth came to be because of the obvious perception. The difficulty getting them to release is real. If it wasn't for that cold hard reality of this one fact- I would not have the extra concern I do about encountering an aggressive loose dog of this breed. No more so than any other breed on the 6 list.


I'm not saying any of that. It was a general statement, that many people still believe the lock jaw myth, and it's stuck exclusively to the pit. 

I didn't say dogs latch, which you're implying I did in the assumption. I didn't say pit bulls are completely innocent when it comes to grabbing someone. But these stories about how it took 6! individuals sensationalizes the issue, and creates this image that it's a pit bull specific issue. Powerful dogs are difficult to remove when they latch on. But it's a general issue that's presented as an breed specific problem.


----------



## Spectrum

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, it is not a remnant of the lockjaw theory. Perhaps you should speak to those who have bred, raised and trained them in work venues.
> 
> Pit Bulls grip and don't let go, it has nothing to do with old wives' tales of locking jaws. It has everything to do with the breed and genetics.
> 
> Do you really think that the nearly 85% of dog bite related fatalities is perceived?


Edit: Perhaps I'm making the mistake of making the speech generalized. Everything I've said regards public opinion. Many of the users here have experience with dogs on levels that make them minorities in the outside world. That's why I'm addressing a personal resentment of the term, considering that I've heard countless amounts of people describe the lock jaw myth when they use the term latching. Public opinion is an incredibly important portion of this topic, considering that many of the people filing the complaints as well as those making the eventual laws don't have the heightened understanding that those in this forum possess, on average. 

"'Perceived' as in your dog chest bumped mine when he ran over to you. He was trying to fight him"

I'm not being sarcastic about the dog being aggressive. But I know more than a couple of people that don't have experiences with dogs that perceive them to be aggressive when they're not. 

For example: When we were finalizing our adoption of my pit, there was a woman there that had no idea about dogs, adopting this huge saint bernard mix. The dog sees our, starts pulling, tailing wagging, barks at our dog and is doing the arched back to invite play. The woman freaks out and starts asking the staff there if he's going to bite ours. That tends to happen when a dog looks intimidating, coupled with ignorance.


----------



## selzer

llombardo said:


> Like it or not GSDs, Dobes, Rotts and now Pits have all faced issues. I think the pits have struggled by far the longest because they are just everywhere. I'm not sure what the cases were with the first three, but at one time they all have been targeted for one reason or another.


I am sorry, but no. Pit bulls are not brothers to Dobermans, Rottweilers, or GSDs. The first three, were bred for their ability to guard, working/herding dogs, are bred to actually attack humans if necessary. 

Pit bulls were created to fight with other critters, not to attack humans. Unfortunately, the numbers are such that more deaths (of humans) are attributed to them than any other breed. And yes, sometimes they get the breed wrong or are breed crosses, but that can be said of ANY breed, especially GSDs. Any dog with upright ears over 50 pounds, and someone is calling it a GSD. 

And STILL, they do not come close to pitts, who shouldn't be biting people at all. I mean, you would expect some human aggression from dogs created and bred to guard against human perpetrators. But having biting bird dogs -- that's a serious problem with their genetic make up. Biting dog-figting dogs, not so much. These dogs are bred for aggression. Lots of aggression. And the line between dog aggression and people aggression for some dogs becomes blurred, probably due to the bad breeding. 

But in order to be PC, people are pretending that it just isn't true that pit bulls are dangerous. And this is a huge problem. 

If someone I know pulls their grand children to the side so that they cannot run up and access my dogs, because of what they are, so be it. Should she let those grand children run up to any ones dogs so that she will not offend people with one breed or another? God Forbid. Keeping the kids safe is far more important than appearing to be biased against GSDs or pit bulls. 

I guess I would rather see breed-specific legislation, than seeing ordinances banning all dogs, or dogs over 50#, so that they won't have to get the BSL people going ape over them. If push comes to shove than I would rather see pit bulls banned than dogs over 40-50 pounds. GSDs, Rotties, Dobes, Labs, Goldens, -- they do not have the numbers of serious injuries and deaths that pits have. I don't have a problem with people being required to carry insurance, and sign some form that has the laws/requirements for owning the breed. 

I know, I know, that makes my name Mud here. But I don't like them, I don't like their looks, I don't like the damage they do, I don't like it that they tend to be the breed of choice for a whole lot of irresponsible owners. 

And if you watch those old Little Rascals, Petie, he was an awful dog (that we all loved), but he was constantly running and biting people, and usually either loose or under the care kids barely beyond being toddlers, pre-schoolers.


----------



## voodoolamb

> Also to compare a german shepherd to a pitbull is silly. You're talking about the number one dog used for police work. When was the last time that you saw a pitbull k9 unit?


Actually quite a few pit bulls have been welcome into the fold as k9s. Generally as single purpose sniffer dogs.






I stand by the comparison. Dogs allowed to get into drive in uncontrolled situations are danferous. Regardless of breed. 

To be a responsible pet owner you do not allow that to happen in uncontrolled situations. 

A civil working line gsd with a lot of drive needs similar management to a pit bull that has a lot of "game". 

Neither dog is inherently bad. They just are what they are. There are avenues and homes that both of those dogs would thrive in and be well suited for.


----------



## Sabis mom

Spectrum said:


> In terms of bite strength, I'm pretty sure that pits and GSD have very comparable strengths. Obviously that's only one component, but it's not as if a Pit is the canine equivalent of the hulk.


No, GSD's have more force. And Danes are near double both. 

Levers people, levers. 

It is not bite force that makes them dangerous. It is that they are genetically prone to aggression and as with most terriers they hang on and shake. And to this that they have been selectively bred to maintain that hold no matter what and you have a problem.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Spectrum said:


> "'Perceived' as in your dog chest bumped mine when he ran over to you. He was trying to fight him"
> 
> I'm not being sarcastic about the dog being aggressive. But I know more than a couple of people that don't have experiences with dogs that perceive them to be aggressive when they're not.
> 
> For example: When we were finalizing our adoption of my pit, there was a woman there that had no idea about dogs, adopting this huge saint bernard mix. The dog sees our, starts pulling, tailing wagging, barks at our dog and is doing the arched back to invite play. The woman freaks out and starts asking the staff there if he's going to bite ours. That tends to happen when a dog looks intimidating, coupled with ignorance.


I am talking facts, statistics, genetics, biology and science, apples and oranges. I don't care about perceptions. Perceptions don't harm or kill other people's pets, Pit Bulls do.


----------



## Baillif

Yeah the biggest problem I see with the pitbull is its all too common to have the combo of 1. The genetic gripping behavior and 2. The genetic insensitivity to pain especially while in high drive and 3. The high prey drive. All three together is a perfect storm for a bad situation when they latch on.

With the GSD often you are missing either 1 2 or 3 but the good ones out there still have all 3.

With the Malinois most typically you are missing 2 sometimes 1 but usually not 3. There are plenty of working line ones out there with all 3 as well though.

Really another factor I suppose is the typical problem pitbull has a fairly high threshold for being pushed into defense. Those deep full bites come mostly out of high intensity prey drive.


----------



## Stonevintage

This whole topic is going into the hopper once again. It was great a few hours ago. I really appreciated Voodoo's posts and for the first time... I heard something from a pit owner addressing issues in an open and honest manner. This is a problem that many responsible pit owners want resolved too. 

Then here are the old mantras again. Not designed to keep the conversation open but instead to take sides and sight graphic detail to get their point across and questioning everything - reasonable conversation - exit stage left....

Well Voodoo - thanks for your candor. I would imagine you are also not one for a conversation that has digressed to this degree... I know I am not.


----------



## voodoolamb

> Perceptions don't harm or kill other people's pets, Pit Bulls do.


And so do other breeds. Quite a few stories on this forum about shepherds that killed other dogs in the family.


----------



## cloudpump

Baillif said:


> Yeah man when did hipsters and pitbulls become a thing? It's like part of the checklist. Bag of fair trade coffee, Prius, vintage clothes, Pitbull with temperament problems, pretending to care about your carbon footprint.


Pitbulls became trendy when they started proliferating them on tv with ceaser and pitbulls and parolees. Plus the use by "tough" rappers.


----------



## Spectrum

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am talking facts, statistics, genetics, biology and science, apples and oranges. I don't care about perceptions. Perceptions don't harm or kill other people's pets, Pit Bulls do.


Perceptions write laws. 

Facts are only one tool in the bag of persuasion.


----------



## voodoolamb

> This whole topic is going into the hopper once again. It was great a few hours ago. I really appreciated Voodoo's posts and for the first time... I heard something from a pit owner addressing issues in an open and honest manner. This is a problem that many responsible pit owners want resolved too.
> 
> Then here are the old mantras again. Not designed to keep the conversation open but instead to take sides and sight graphic detail to get their point across and questioning everything - reasonable conversation - exit stage left....
> 
> Well Voodoo - thanks for your candor. I would imagine you are also not one for a conversation that has digressed to this degree... I know I am not


No problem stone  but yes I should probably be out on this one, getting a tad too heated. 

Oh and thank you for listening and considering my POV. I know that you aren't a fan of pits (and that's ok!) So I really appreciate your questions and curiosity. 

I do hope you get to the point where you feel safe enough to walk your Summer. I'm routing for the two of you!


----------



## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> This whole topic is going into the hopper once again. It was great a few hours ago. I really appreciated Voodoo's posts and for the first time... I heard something from a pit owner addressing issues in an open and honest manner. This is a problem that many responsible pit owners want resolved too.
> 
> Then here are the old mantras again. Not designed to keep the conversation open but instead to take sides and sight graphic detail to get their point across and questioning everything - reasonable conversation - exit stage left....
> 
> Well Voodoo - thanks for your candor. I would imagine you are also not one for a conversation that has digressed to this degree... I know I am not.


Any time pibbles get brought up things get heated. 
I owned a couple of AmStaffs over the years. I like them. Sadly I cannot think of another breed/type that has such a draw to people that shouldn't have dogs. Unless it's Chi's, they seem to possess the same stupid magnet pibbles do.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> And so do other breeds. Quite a few stories on this forum about shepherds that killed other dogs in the family.


I have seen a couple, but no where near the number of GSDs that endured Pit Bull attacks, at least not on this forum.

Have you ever heard of a GSD that attacked and killed a non family dog such in a park or other public area? I am sure it has happened, but I have personally never heard of it. Can you document or link an incident for me?


----------



## voodoolamb

MAWL - sure. 

German shepherd attacks, kills teacup poodle during Topeka parade | Cjonline.com Mobile

Irresponsible handling of both dogs.


----------



## Spectrum

Dog Euthanized After Woman Killed In Attack | WBNS-10TV Columbus, Ohio

It proves nothing though.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Any time pibbles get brought up things get heated.
> I owned a couple of AmStaffs over the years. I like them. Sadly I cannot think of another breed/type that has such a draw to people that shouldn't have dogs. Unless it's Chi's, they seem to possess the same stupid magnet pibbles do.



That is because nothing is changing. To hear me say it, you would think their are at least six Pit Bulls living in every household near me. That is far from accurate. I would say the most popular breed in my immediate vicinity is the German Shepherd. If you were to walk or drive through my neighborhood, you would not be able to tell this because everybody keeps them in their houses for their own safety.

So far this year I have had two Pit Bull incidents. I pulled up to my house and a Pit Bull ran out between my neighbor's house and mine and stood hovering outside my car and would not leave. Another neighbor down the street pulled up in her car a few seconds later. We both had to readjust our lifestyles to accommodate this Pit Bull's wishes as neither one of us were getting out of our cars until it left. Since when do Pit Bulls mandate how people live?

The other incident was just a couple weeks ago when my dogs were fussing at the back door. I went out to look and my cat was on my porch. My neighbor in the back had left their gate open and somebody else's Pit Bull was in their yard trying to get into mine to get to my cat. 

When is enough enough? Last year their was a toddler killed by a family pet Pit Bull not far from my home. Last year a Pit Bull that killed its owners was shipped to a rescue local to me to be rehomed. I complained.. the response? Because the incident happened just across the state border from my state, the Pit Bull was considered not to have a bite history let alone a kill history. Who thought of that? What makes it worse is that it makes me wonder just how many of these family pet Pit Bulls that kill people are shipped across state borders for a fresh start? One would imagine that these killing Pit Bulls would be euthanized but that is frequently not the case. The terrier that killed the newborn baby in Ohio not long ago just has been recently returned to its home. Nice.

My entire county has a Pit Bull problem. There are 1.232 million people living in this county. That is a lot of people who have to change their lifestyles so that others may own Pit Bulls.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> MAWL - sure.
> 
> German shepherd attacks, kills teacup poodle during Topeka parade | Cjonline.com Mobile
> 
> Irresponsible handling of both dogs.


That is two years old, you couldn't find anything from this year?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Spectrum said:


> Dog Euthanized After Woman Killed In Attack | WBNS-10TV Columbus, Ohio
> 
> It proves nothing though.


That is three years old can we keep it to at least 2015 if you can't find anything this year?


----------



## Spectrum

Dogs Attack, Kill Alpaca in Rural El Dorado County | FOX40

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-35714601

Edit: I can't find anything from yesterday though. 

German Shepherds quite obviously don't attack with the same frequency. But they definitely do attack, they are genetically bred to be okay in confrontation. They may not be fighters like pits, but they're not docile animals, like other breeds. There's a reason why they stay near the top of the list, even if they're not the ones leading it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Actually quite a few pit bulls have been welcome into the fold as k9s. Generally as single purpose sniffer dogs.
> 
> https://youtu.be/q29tNvzkOEg
> 
> I stand by the comparison. Dogs allowed to get into drive in uncontrolled situations are danferous. Regardless of breed.
> 
> To be a responsible pet owner you do not allow that to happen in uncontrolled situations.
> 
> A civil working line gsd with a lot of drive needs similar management to a pit bull that has a lot of "game".
> 
> Neither dog is inherently bad. They just are what they are. There are avenues and homes that both of those dogs would thrive in and be well suited for.


I have owned civil workingline GSDs, I even owned one dog aggressive GSD. It is a snap to control the civil dog, the dog aggressive one was not something I would curse anybody with.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Spectrum said:


> Dogs Attack, Kill Alpaca in Rural El Dorado County | FOX40
> 
> Barbie the terrier attack: Police dog 'suspended from duty' - BBC News
> 
> Edit: I can't find anything from yesterday though.
> 
> German Shepherds quite obviously don't attack with the same frequency. But they definitely do attack, they are genetically bred to be okay in confrontation. They may not be fighters like pits, but they're not docile animals, like other breeds. There's a reason why they stay near the top of the list, even if they're not the ones leading it.


Alpacas aren't people or dogs but if you want to count other animal species, you really are digging the hole deeper for Pit Bulls, think cats, chickens, etc. It would not be a good move if you are defending the breed.

Good! You found one but you had to go to another country to find it. Doesn't matter. Would you like me to list the dozens of dogs that were killed this month by Pit Bulls? It would make that one German Shepherd incident pale in comparison, especially if I concluded those from other countries.

If I am correct, that GSD was euthanized? Unlike Pit Bulls that kill other peoples pets, many today consider that normal dog behavior.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but no. Pit bulls are not brothers to Dobermans, Rottweilers, or GSDs. The first three, were bred for their ability to guard, working/herding dogs, are bred to actually attack humans if necessary.
> 
> Pit bulls were created to fight with other critters, not to attack humans. Unfortunately, the numbers are such that more deaths (of humans) are attributed to them than any other breed. And yes, sometimes they get the breed wrong or are breed crosses, but that can be said of ANY breed, especially GSDs. Any dog with upright ears over 50 pounds, and someone is calling it a GSD.
> 
> And STILL, they do not come close to pitts, who shouldn't be biting people at all. I mean, you would expect some human aggression from dogs created and bred to guard against human perpetrators. But having biting bird dogs -- that's a serious problem with their genetic make up. Biting dog-figting dogs, not so much. These dogs are bred for aggression. Lots of aggression. And the line between dog aggression and people aggression for some dogs becomes blurred, probably due to the bad breeding.
> 
> But in order to be PC, people are pretending that it just isn't true that pit bulls are dangerous. And this is a huge problem.
> 
> If someone I know pulls their grand children to the side so that they cannot run up and access my dogs, because of what they are, so be it. Should she let those grand children run up to any ones dogs so that she will not offend people with one breed or another? God Forbid. Keeping the kids safe is far more important than appearing to be biased against GSDs or pit bulls.
> 
> I guess I would rather see breed-specific legislation, than seeing ordinances banning all dogs, or dogs over 50#, so that they won't have to get the BSL people going ape over them. If push comes to shove than I would rather see pit bulls banned than dogs over 40-50 pounds. GSDs, Rotties, Dobes, Labs, Goldens, -- they do not have the numbers of serious injuries and deaths that pits have. I don't have a problem with people being required to carry insurance, and sign some form that has the laws/requirements for owning the breed.
> 
> I know, I know, that makes my name Mud here. But I don't like them, I don't like their looks, I don't like the damage they do, I don't like it that they tend to be the breed of choice for a whole lot of irresponsible owners.
> 
> And if you watch those old Little Rascals, Petie, he was an awful dog (that we all loved), but he was constantly running and biting people, and usually either loose or under the care kids barely beyond being toddlers, pre-schoolers.


I agree. I have always found this particular meme particularly offensive by comparing breeds that have spent their lives serving mankind in valued venues to Pits who entertained mankind with bloodsports.


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## Spectrum

I don't think anyone in their right mind was trying to say GSDs are equal to pits, simply that big dogs are prone to hurting things.

"Show me an example of GSDs hurting a nonfamily pet"

*shown example*

"well that can't stand, it's too old!"

*shown recent example*

"well, that's a different country! We all know that English GSDs are a completely different breed to GSDs in the US."

But the bias in that last statement shows that the point is moot.


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## voodoolamb

> I have owned civil workingline GSDs, I even owned one dog aggressive GSD. It is a snap to control the civil dog, the dog aggressive one was not something I would curse anybody with.


What happened to your dog aggressive GSD? Did you keep it?


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> What happened to your dog aggressive GSD? Did you keep it?


Yes, I did keep him. I worked with him but it just wasn't worth the risk to other people's pets so he basically lost a lot of privileges. I am the kind of person that tries to take my dogs with me when I can. He became the dog that had to always sit home alone when he had been a favorite and frequently taken. His switch flipped when he turned two years of age.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Spectrum said:


> I don't think anyone in their right mind was trying to say GSDs are equal to pits, simply that big dogs are prone to hurting things.
> 
> "Show me an example of GSDs hurting a nonfamily pet"
> 
> *shown example*
> 
> "well that can't stand, it's too old!"
> 
> *shown recent example*
> 
> "well, that's a different country! We all know that English GSDs are a completely different breed to GSDs in the US."
> 
> But the bias in that last statement shows that the point is moot.


I disagree that big dogs are prone to hurting things. Not saying they can't or won't but I am saying it is unlikely for them to do it UNPROVOKED. 

Nobody ever said that English GSDs were different from US GSDs, that was all perceived in your mind. My statement merely reflected the difficulty of finding a current incident of a GSD killing a dog in the US so we could compare apples to apples, current Pit Bull on dog attacks in the US to current GSD dog attacks in the US. You are reading way more into it.


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## voodoolamb

> Yes, I did keep him.


So you chose a lifetime of managing rather then to not have your dog at all. 

Which is what the *responsible* pit owners do. 

That's been the only point I have been trying to make. There are responsible pit fanciers out there, they should be able to enjoy their dog of choice. 

Something needs to be done about irresponsible pet ownership in general. 

If all the pit bulls were to disappear tomorrow. Irresponsible owners will still be there. They will still get their hands on dogs they have no business owning. 

Want to hear something downright SCARY? 

In my city the Ovcharka is becoming popular for some reason. I see a new one every couple months. BYB puppy ads are on Craigslist. On 2 occasions I have seen 2 young ones loose and charging at people and other dogs. One at the off leash dog park and one at a regular park where it got away from it's owner. I struck up a conversation with a few of the owners - me being a dog nerd and seeing such an awesome rare breed. I kid you not, these people knew jack about dogs. One guy who had two LITTERMATES about 6 months old asked me how did I get my pup to walk by my side and how I got him to listen when I told him to sit while we were in such a busy area. Then he said he wished he didn't get a brother or sister because he wanted to breed them but didn't want deformed puppies. 

Meh. Give me a suit made of raw hamburger and tea cup poodles and feed me to the pit bulls before letting me encounter said bozo when his dogs reach maturity. I think my chances would be better.


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> So you chose a lifetime of managing rather then to not have your dog at all.
> 
> Which is what the *responsible* pit owners do.
> 
> That's been the only point I have been trying to make. There are responsible pit fanciers out there, they should be able to enjoy their dog of choice.
> 
> Something needs to be done about irresponsible pet ownership in general.
> 
> If all the pit bulls were to disappear tomorrow. Irresponsible owners will still be there. They will still get their hands on dogs they have no business owning.
> 
> Want to hear something downright SCARY?
> 
> In my city the Ovcharka is becoming popular for some reason. I see a new one every couple months. BYB puppy ads are on Craigslist. On 2 occasions I have seen 2 young ones loose and charging at people and other dogs. One at the off leash dog park and one at a regular park where it got away from it's owner. I struck up a conversation with a few of the owners - me being a dog nerd and seeing such an awesome rare breed. I kid you not, these people knew jack about dogs. One guy who had two LITTERMATES about 6 months old asked me how did I get my pup to walk by my side and how I got him to listen when I told him to sit while we were in such a busy area. Then he said he wished he didn't get a brother or sister because he wanted to breed them but didn't want deformed puppies.
> 
> Meh. Give me a suit made of raw hamburger and tea cup poodles and feed me to the pit bulls before letting me encounter said bozo when his dogs reach maturity. I think my chances would be better.


No, I did not choose to own a breed that was bred to fight and kill its own kind. I chose to own a breed known for human aggression. As in any breed, sometimes you get one that is dog aggressive, but it was not my choice.

I have nothing against responsible Pit Bull fanciers. They have been around forever. I never saw their Pits and their Pits did not maul or kill other people's pets. It is not like that today. And therein lies the problem for both of us.

No, see, irresponsible dog ownership is not the problem and laws targeting all breeds do NOT address the breed specific issues of the Pit Bull. This is why there is no end in sight to this. Who among us fears walking our dogs past a well bred high hunt and prey drive Beagle contained by a three foot chicken wire fence? What if that dog was a well bred herding Collie? Who here under the same circumstances would be concerned in the same circumstance if the dog was a well bred, dog aggressive and game Pit Bull? The same rules do not apply. The rules that would be needed to regulate the safe management and control of a Pit Bull would be considered excessive and unnecessary for other breeds of dogs. 

I am no spring chicken. I remember well when Pit Bulls were not kept as family pets and I saw many breeds soar and come back down in popularity. It was seldom based on what dog was the baddest but usually what dog was popular on tv or in the movies, not that those were the only factors, but most of those breeds were not the biggest or baddests. Look at the popularity today of the Chihuahua catapaulted into fame by the Taco Bell dogs. Pit Bulls garnered popularity when Pit Bull fighting became a felony in all the states and humane organizations felt guilty euthanizing so many human friendly, dog aggressive Pits and they started promoting them as family pets strumming the poor abused Pitty chords, of course leaving out the dog aggressive part. 

The Ovcharkas breed popularity does not surprise me, it is a breed I considered myself so that I could once again safely walk my community but could easily handle a Pit Bull attack. I just did not believe that I had the physical wherewithal to control such a large and strong breed and chose to pass rather than risk harm to innocent people or pets.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> When I leave my dog outside a store, I don't tie her at all. I just put her on a down stay.
> 
> She watches through the window, while I go in, grab a donut or hot dog, pay, and then come out. Sometimes people come in while I am grabbing, and they marvel that she doesn't move. But I don't do it often.
> 
> Maybe these dogs are actually well-trained, and the hitching doesn't need to be gladiator-tough.


Works for me also.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Works for me also.


I can't agree where any breed of dog that has been bred to kill other dogs should have free, unsupervised and unfettered access to somebody else's dog regardless of training. Dogs break training, and it won't be the Pit Bull or its owner paying the price.


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## Chip18

SuperG said:


> Not saying that walking a dog is really any physical exercise...especially with larger breeds, But, I believe there is benefit in going places with your dog and trekking about as it exposes a dog to a multitude of sensory and other experiences which are good for a dog. The more elements one exposes their dog to... can't really do any harm and probably is a good thing for its confidence and indulges some of its innate tendencies. There's a whole lot more to the world than a dog's backyard and home. Watching a dog leave its scent for other dogs convinced me there is some value to this process.
> 
> SuperG


Oh but of course I have covered the whole "Walking a Dog thing" at great length on my other Board. 

But to be "brief" *I'll simply say a dog doesn't need an owner for "exercise" but they do an owner to go on a proper structured walk. A proper walk is an exercise in discipline.
*
I chalk that one up as a lesson learned the hard way.


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## MadLab

MAWL said,



> Yes, I did keep him. *I worked with him* ......He became the dog that had to always sit home alone *when he had been a favorite* and frequently taken. *His switch flipped when he turned two years of age.*


It is kind of ironic, for someone so against a breed known for dog aggression to own a dog aggressive dog of another breed.

I don't think these things come solely down to genetics. The person holding the leash (or not) is highly influential on a dogs development and is partly, dare i say, largely responsible for the end result good or bad.

Give said dog to someone who channels the aggression and instills discipline and a different result would be possible.


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## RockyK9

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, I did not choose to own a breed that was bred to fight and kill its own kind. I chose to own a breed known for human aggression. As in any breed, sometimes you get one that is dog aggressive, but it was not my choice.
> 
> I have nothing against responsible Pit Bull fanciers. They have been around forever. I never saw their Pits and their Pits did not maul or kill other people's pets. It is not like that today. And therein lies the problem for both of us.
> 
> No, see, irresponsible dog ownership is not the problem and laws targeting all breeds do NOT address the breed specific issues of the Pit Bull. This is why there is no end in sight to this. Who among us fears walking our dogs past a well bred high hunt and prey drive Beagle contained by a three foot chicken wire fence? What if that dog was a well bred herding Collie? Who here under the same circumstances would be concerned in the same circumstance if the dog was a well bred, dog aggressive and game Pit Bull? The same rules do not apply. The rules that would be needed to regulate the safe management and control of a Pit Bull would be considered excessive and unnecessary for other breeds of dogs.
> 
> I am no spring chicken. I remember well when Pit Bulls were not kept as family pets and I saw many breeds soar and come back down in popularity. It was seldom based on what dog was the baddest but usually what dog was popular on tv or in the movies, not that those were the only factors, but most of those breeds were not the biggest or baddests. Look at the popularity today of the Chihuahua catapaulted into fame by the Taco Bell dogs. Pit Bulls garnered popularity when Pit Bull fighting became a felony in all the states and humane organizations felt guilty euthanizing so many human friendly, dog aggressive Pits and they started promoting them as family pets strumming the poor abused Pitty chords, of course leaving out the dog aggressive part.
> 
> The Ovcharkas breed popularity does not surprise me, it is a breed I considered myself so that I could once again safely walk my community but could easily handle a Pit Bull attack. I just did not believe that I had the physical wherewithal to control such a large and strong breed and chose to pass rather than risk harm to innocent people or pets.


 Sorry, I do believe that Laws governing smart dog ownership today DO make sense to apply to a Pitbull. We may never know because they are rarely enforced. You keep referencing how they were bred to kill other dogs..... Of course there was a point in time when this was popular through history but let's please not assume that these are dog eating monsters today unless they are conditioned to be . I would venture to guess that the large majority of Pits are not these crazy dog killers you speak of. There many I have seen that are owned responsibly or not. We can't have special laws for each breed. That would put our GSD's in danger of being singled out as well. We can't have one law for labs, one for Rotties ...one for dogs that "look like" Pit bull type ....


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## llombardo

Has anyone tried to pull a Rott off another dog? I did and it would not release. Two grown people and nothing. And pulling the dog by its hind legs didn't work either, my friend did that to stop the Rott and the Rott, myself and my dog ended up in the air. That dog let go when he was good and ready. 

It is safe to say that I do not want to experience that agsin.


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## RockyK9

Sabis mom said:


> And that is exactly the attitude that gets dogs into trouble. Your dog is as bad as mine! Who cares! Mind your own dog, let me mind mine. It is this blindness that has people who do love pibbles steamed. If there is any hope of saving the 'breed' it is going to come from people who recognize and respect what this dog is and what it is capable of. Not from the 'advocates' who promote it as the best dog ever, every one should get two, other breeds are just as bad.


 I disagree. Its not that attitude that gets people int trouble. Any breed blindness is a dangerous thing. We just need to all be aware of what our dogs are capable of and try not putting them in situations we cannot control.


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## llombardo

UPDATE: Family releases statement following German Shepherd&apos;s death


Dog shot, killed by Kyle police at HEB | KVUE.com

I do agree that Pit Bulls were bred to fight. They need to be watched around other dogs and cats. Given the number of them(10 times more then other breeds), lots of them live in homes with other pets without issue. 

GSDs, dobes and Rotts are more of a guarding breed and can have human aggression, which is way worse then any dog aggression. It's much easier to manage dog aggression then human aggression. 

I watch the Rotts, all my bad experiences have been with them, but I still like the breed.


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## cloudpump

There are so many breeds with dog aggression. Akitas, bully breeds, mastiff breeds, ovcharkas, and chows to name a few. Then there are the dog aggressive individuals of every dog breed. Unfortunately my experiences with pit owners are they have a sense of entitlement. They feel their dog is not that way. This past weekend a coworker of mine was in the paper for her dog mauling a rescue greyhound Rescued Greyhound mauled while out for a walk in Newark, Wayne County | WHAM 
She's the type that wears the shirts "blame the owner not the dog" and everything else. Blind to the type of dog she has. 
Now back to the point of the thread, you cannot live in fear. Have you looked into talking with the town board? Or whoever you can? Maybe volunteering with AC? 
When you approach this subject, do so without emotion. Or have someone speak for you.


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## Stonevintage

Proper use of a leash and proper confinement of a dog on their owners property would clean up a lot of this mess.

Perhaps a 3 strike rule THAT IS STRICTLY ENFORCED is the only answer. It seems that neighbors are very aware when a neighbor dog is continually allowed off leash or continually escapes their owners yard. A quick picture with your cell phone - sent to LE with the time and owners address. 

3 times and the owner looses the dog. End of story. This would certainly be a way to remove a problem dog from an irresponsible owner. It is non discriminatory. There are designated dog parks now to let your dog off leash. There's really no reason LE cannot be charged with doing their job in a more thorough manner. But they will most likely need additional staff. A couple of extra dollars per year to the local tax payer would take care of this. I would gladly pay to take care of the problem. 

Petitions are very effective with our local city council. They do listen. I can email my Mayor and have his response within 1 hour. Same with 2 of the council members. I think I may give this a try here.


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## Stonevintage

Ha! Cloud - I must have been typing my post while yours posted!:smile2:


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## Stonevintage

I'm just thinking - if they'll let me I could set up a stand outside Safeway to get petition signatures. I could also get some insta print cards to hand out with the phone number and email address to send info on dogs at large. I could hit the dog park and talk to the owners there...

It would be interesting to concentrate efforts in my area of the city known as Midtown. This way I could request reports and monitor for improvement in a specific area. If it worked here - I could do a release to the local newspaper for an article of how other areas can start a concentrated program in their area perhaps a joint release with LE encouraging other community groups and handing out contact cards.

I guess the first step will be to set up a meeting with the AC officer and get her input. If she's not receptive for any reason - then I can begin conversations with the city council.


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## Niexist

My uncle is a responsible pit bull owner, he has a large yard and his dogs never go on walks. They are the sweetest things in the world, but extremely co-dependant on each other. Perhaps this is the proper way to manage pit bulls. You can't run into problems if it's never outside your house/backyard.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Statistically Rotties closely follow pits on the death and dismemberment awards.

One thing I think is significant about Pits, and very possibly also some other breed I am not thinking of at this moment: is what they are bred to do with their aggression. 

Now, LE and MWD people please correct me if I am wrong, I know there are tales of war dogs being trained to kill and bury people at one time but I don't know if that was ever true and I definitely do not think it is true today? But what a GSD is selected for is the courage to apprehend the suspect mostly in partnership with its human handler. Nobody is out there looking for the GSD who maims and kills with little or no provokation. 

The GSD has worked for generations in lots of venues, as herders, medical service dogs and SAR dogs. Also in LE and MWDs, but still the goal is to protect the handler, apprehend the suspect ect, the goal is not to rip his throat out on purpose. So you don't want the GSD to shrink from the fight, but if he lost his head on the field and murdered the decoy, would he be prized and bred? I don't think so. 

For that matter, when is the last time anyone can recall a GSD killing someone in the venue of schutzhund or any other protection sport (honest question, does anyone know of one)? And these are dogs who are being trained to bite people. Pit bull kills opponent: he is prized and bred. And to the person who said these dogs were only bred for this historically, do you know how many dog fighting rings they continue to bust? And that is not even cou ting the street punks who get pits off craigslist and fight them in back allies. If you look at the logs of great fighting dogs, records kept by the dogmen themselves, some of the best fighters are also man biters and they are bred anyway because they fight well. I actually researched this for my own information.

I know there are cases of GSDs killing people, and PLENTY if bites, but the characteristic and most frequent bite or even attack of a GSD is not that of a pit, simply because they have not been selectively bred to deliver these catastrophic, sustained attacks despite major bodily injury of themselves, submission of the opponent ect ect ect

I had a GSD mix that I managed not unlike a pitbull. He was not DA to what he considered a dog, the problem was he was SO predatory, and would swiftly kill prey. I mean he was a force to be reconed with. Like other ppl have said, if there was a small vet's office where he might bump into a llittle dog, he was always muzzled. I knew he could kill someone's fluffy in a matter of seconds. I let him handle the pest animals who wanted to eat my chickens (***** ect). He also wanted to eat my chickens and goats but I worked very hard with him on that. Before his training was through, he was also muzzled around the stock and it saved at least one chicken who popped out from somewhere and he was on her in a flash. I was able to get him before he crushed her with the muzzle, all he got was a tail feather and the chicken had a long and happy life after that. Years of training because I knew the day would come that a goat would escape and pop in front of him. That day came twice, and he did not make a move on my goats. I was super strict with him and his containment, he never went near another farm or their stock (if my training was ever going to fail I figured let it br my livestock, not someone else's). It is HARD work to keep a dog like that who wants to eat everything that is small and runs (heck he had no problem taking down animals his own size if it was a prey animal) he is a case in point of a mostly GSD who could certainly have killed someone's pet. I went to grand lengths to see that he never did that. I will only even tell those stories now that he is deceased and I can say now for certain that I succeeded.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Here is a question too if anyone happens to know: I know LGDs generally just bark to scare off predators but I think they are supposed to engage if necessary. Wonder how many of those breeds in pet homes have dangerous dog aggression?


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## Sabis mom

llombardo said:


> Has anyone tried to pull a Rott off another dog? I did and it would not release. Two grown people and nothing. And pulling the dog by its hind legs didn't work either, my friend did that to stop the Rott and the Rott, myself and my dog ended up in the air. That dog let go when he was good and ready.
> 
> It is safe to say that I do not want to experience that agsin.


Yup!

It was a Rotti that had Shadow in its mouth, shaking her like a rag and trying to drag her away. Not my finest moment as a dog lover. But I boot ****ed that thing until it dropped her and then tossed her into the box of a truck that was parked next to me and went after it again. Instinct to protect my own kicked into overdrive. Had I had a gun I would have dropped it where it stood, as it was I wanted to tear it apart with my bare hands. I kicked it until it ran inside, limping and crying. I hope it hurt.


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## Heartandsoul

Stonevintage said:


> I'm just thinking - if they'll let me I could set up a stand outside Safeway to get petition signatures. I could also get some insta print cards to hand out with the phone number and email address to send info on dogs at large. I could hit the dog park and talk to the owners there...
> 
> It would be interesting to concentrate efforts in my area of the city known as Midtown. This way I could request reports and monitor for improvement in a specific area. If it worked here - I could do a release to the local newspaper for an article of how other areas can start a concentrated program in their area perhaps a joint release with LE encouraging other community groups and handing out contact cards.
> 
> I guess the first step will be to set up a meeting with the AC officer and get her input. If she's not receptive for any reason - then I can begin conversations with the city council.


I would triple "like" this this if I could. :smile2:


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My main problem with Pit Bulls is not the dog aggression. I really don't care if they start fights or attack people. My problem is that they latch on and don't let go. There was a recent Pit Bull attack where SIX adults could not remove the attacking Pit Bull from its victim. That is my problem. If six adults can't handle a Pit, how can any one single, inexperienced person keep others safe when out in public? Look at the therapy Pit Bull video I posted earlier, this is the rule, not the exception.


I couldn't watch the video. But I believe you. They can't handle it. A friend's daughter who owned mild mannered mixes as a child, adopted a Pitt from a shelter. She took her dog out for a walk one Saturday because he had always been good at home. He went after another dog on a leash and gave it a nasty bite. Fortunately the other owner was a strong man and was able to pull his dog away. My friend couldn't understand why the dog bit or why the other owner was so upset. He wanted the Pitt put down. Her daughter, still clueless, paid the vet bill and as far as I know, still has the dog two years later. But the dog is now probably locked up in an apartment all day.


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## Niexist

Here is my story when it comes to dog aggression. At around 4 years old due to some situation a 4 year old didn't understand I got 2 grown doberman pinchers from my grandfather for my birthday(apparently he couldn't take care of them properly or something). Well it was my 4th birthday and I was loving on them and one of them named Samson who was probably the reason my grandfather gave them to my mom bit my face, so he was removed, and I found out many years later put to sleep. The other one was my best friend for years, and years named Dawn. A few years later we got a rottie named Allie from the pound, she didn't have the proper number of toes on any of her feet, but she was a real sweetheart.

We were caretakers at a forest ranger station, and the nearest city was about 45 minutes away, so one day we get home, and I hear Dawn whimpering. Allie had jumped her fence, and gotten into Dawn's area and had really tore her up badly. Her entire side was an open wound. As I recall this also happened on one other occasion, resulting in Dawn never quite being the same, and having to be put down. One of the saddest moments of my life, and I hated that *&#&ing rottweiler for a long time. Eventually I always warmed up to the dog that we had the longest which after Dawn passed was Allie, and she was a good dog for a long time, very loyal, but I'll never forget that one incident where she took my Dawn away.

Around the age of 11 or so my mom was getting heavily into herding, she had 3 border collies, and an australian cattle dog named Sage who she loved dearly. Sage had actually nursed one of the BC's, because its mother had rejected her, and Sage had a litter at the time. Well, they were always left around each other I think(remember this is all from childhood memories), and one day we were at a neighbors house and the border collies had ganged up on the cattle dog, and hurt her very badly.

These were all terrible situations, but my parents were never pet dog people so they were always our situations, not involving others. Dogs by their nature are aggresive, and when there isn't a person that they respect(the case with almost all pit bull owners.) present, they will do things you never though possible no matter how sweet they are.


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## MineAreWorkingline

mattpayne said:


> Sorry, I do believe that Laws governing smart dog ownership today DO make sense to apply to a Pitbull. We may never know because they are rarely enforced. You keep referencing how they were bred to kill other dogs..... Of course there was a point in time when this was popular through history but let's please not assume that these are dog eating monsters today unless they are conditioned to be . I would venture to guess that the large majority of Pits are not these crazy dog killers you speak of. There many I have seen that are owned responsibly or not. We can't have special laws for each breed. That would put our GSD's in danger of being singled out as well. We can't have one law for labs, one for Rotties ...one for dogs that "look like" Pit bull type ....


I never met a Pit that has not harmed or killed another animal and I have met a lot of Pit Bulls. Most Pit Bull owners will tell you otherwise until you hear them telling others, or even you, about the cat or dog their Pit killed and when you point this out to them, they are surprised that harming or killing somebody else's pet is not acceptable, after all, to them, it is just an animal. 

Yes, we can have laws targeting Pit Bulls but not all dogs that pose a threat just like we have laws that target drunk drivers but not all drivers. Pit Bulls and those that own them are not special and are not above the law.

And if you think German Shepherds may be targeted because of laws agaisnt Pit Bulls, you are right, but for the wrong reasons. Pit Bull pushers are already pushing for laws against our breed based on the actions of Pit Bulls, not the actions of GSDs.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Pit Bull pushers are already pushing for laws against our breed based on the actions of Pit Bulls, not the actions of GSDs.


Because that makes their breed less dangerous? I know a woman who works with dogs and said that the pittbulls she has met are the best behaved dogs because their owners have made an effort to train and socialize them. If they are trained, just about any dog can become a good pet. The key is whether someone knows how to properly train or socialize that breed.


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## GypsyGhost

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never met a Pit that has not harmed or killed another animal and I have met a lot of Pit Bulls. Most Pit Bull owners will tell you otherwise until you hear them telling others, or even you, about the cat or dog their Pit killed and when you point this out to them, they are surprised that harming or killing somebody else's pet is not acceptable, after all, to them, it is just an animal.
> 
> Yes, we can have laws targeting Pit Bulls but not all dogs that pose a threat just like we have laws that target drunk drivers but not all drivers. Pit Bulls and those that own them are not special and are not above the law.
> 
> And if you think German Shepherds may be targeted because of laws agaisnt Pit Bulls, you are right, but for the wrong reasons. Pit Bull pushers are already pushing for laws against our breed based on the actions of Pit Bulls, not the actions of GSDs.


I can tell you right now that my pit has never harmed or killed another animal, pet or not. Why? Because she is properly managed. I'm not going to try to say that she couldn't kill another animal, as that would be ignorant. I am going to say that she will never be given the opportunity. She is never off leash. I don't take her to dog parks. We don't board her. We don't use a dog walker. If we go on vacation, she goes with us.


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## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> MAWL said,
> 
> 
> 
> It is kind of ironic, for someone so against a breed known for dog aggression to own a dog aggressive dog of another breed.
> 
> I don't think these things come solely down to genetics. The person holding the leash (or not) is highly influential on a dogs development and is partly, dare i say, largely responsible for the end result good or bad.
> 
> Give said dog to someone who channels the aggression and instills discipline and a different result would be possible.


Where you live, they have people lining up around the block to adopt adult dog aggressive dogs? 

Yes, somebody skilled willing to work with a dog aggressive dog probably could / would have taken this dog further, but I was NOT willing to work with that crap. The bottom line is I still would have had a dog that I would not trust with SOMEBODY ELSE'S PET. Training can fail and other people's pets aren't my personal bait animals.

Breed dog aggressive dogs to dog aggressive dogs and see what you get.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Here is a question too if anyone happens to know: I know LGDs generally just bark to scare off predators but I think they are supposed to engage if necessary. Wonder how many of those breeds in pet homes have dangerous dog aggression?


Rotts are not a close second to Pits in maulings and fatalities but a far distant second.

The only LGDs I know that were kept as pets were pet quality pups from Great Pyr showlines, none were dog aggressive. We have a rather large Pyr rescue near me and I have met a lot of their dogs, none of which were DA and are routinely brought to dog parks without issue.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Yup!
> 
> It was a Rotti that had Shadow in its mouth, shaking her like a rag and trying to drag her away. Not my finest moment as a dog lover. But I boot ****ed that thing until it dropped her and then tossed her into the box of a truck that was parked next to me and went after it again. Instinct to protect my own kicked into overdrive. Had I had a gun I would have dropped it where it stood, as it was I wanted to tear it apart with my bare hands. I kicked it until it ran inside, limping and crying. I hope it hurt.


That is what I like about Rotts and most other breeds, they can be booted off.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> Because that makes their breed less dangerous? I know a woman who works with dogs and said that the pittbulls she has met are the best behaved dogs because their owners have made an effort to train and socialize them. If they are trained, just about any dog can become a good pet. The key is whether someone knows how to properly train or socialize that breed.


No, not because it makes the breed less dangerous but because it draws the GSD people out to protect their breed which is not doing the deed. 

Example, if laws were passed to revoke everybody's driver's license for six months because some people drive drunk, the masses would be out in force fighting the unfair regulation that punishes everybody for the ways of a few.

This is the same thing that reckless Pit owners are trying to do everytime people call for some kind of action due to the action of their Pits. They try to get GSDs, Rotts, Dobes, etc., dragged into their mess so that people like us are drawn into their battle and do their fighting for them.


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## MineAreWorkingline

GypsyGhost said:


> I can tell you right now that my pit has never harmed or killed another animal, pet or not. Why? Because she is properly managed. I'm not going to try to say that she couldn't kill another animal, as that would be ignorant. I am going to say that she will never be given the opportunity. She is never off leash. I don't take her to dog parks. We don't board her. We don't use a dog walker. If we go on vacation, she goes with us.


Thank you for your responsibility with your Pit Bull and other people's pets. We need more people like you.


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## Muskeg

On the LGD issue- there was a case in Montana, I think, where two LGDs mauled a woman in a mountain bike race. Sounded like bad management all around. Pretty sad for the dogs, who were working sheep LGDs. 

Here's an article on this issue in general: adventure journal ? Colorado Hikers and Bikers Under Attack from Sheep Dogs


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## Muskeg

That article is pretty poorly researched, but shows that LGDs can be a problem.


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## Stonevintage

Muskeg said:


> On the LGD issue- there was a case in Montana, I think, where two LGDs mauled a woman in a mountain bike race. Sounded like bad management all around. Pretty sad for the dogs, who were working sheep LGDs.
> 
> Here's an article on this issue in general: adventure journal ? Colorado Hikers and Bikers Under Attack from Sheep Dogs


I read about this being a problem in Norway or somewhere about a year ago. It is a common problem for mountain bikers and runners over there. There are signs posted along the biking jogging trails where they cut across grazing land. You are to dismount your bike and walk or stop jogging and walk out of the area. Apparently the dogs will not attack unless someone's moving fast. They "let" you walk thru their patrol area.


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## Baillif

Pitbull wasn't bred to just go nuts indiscriminately. Ever notice that they don't often redirect once they pick a target? If you watch enough videos of them mauling something the best ones can be kicked hit with sticks and grabbed and held but they don't redirect usually. You can usually breakstick em off or choke em off a bite without worrying about redirection because the dogfighters would kill the ones that would redirect on them if they were trying to stop a fight. They purposely selected against that trait. Their prey bite and hold is not different from what people try to get out of IPO or ring dogs. The biggest factor that makes them hard to out when they are on the bite is the insensitivity when in that high state of arousal. That and the fact nobody teaches them to out in the first place.

I know a group in Maryland that uses pitbulls, amstaffs, and other bully breed dogs for PSA as well as mondio. I've caught quite a few of them. They aren't any different from nicely bred and trained GSD or Mals in terms of bite except that most of them are actually not as intense. The grips aren't anything super special. They out when you train them to out too.


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## Baillif

Furthermore their bite strength really doesn't feel like anything special because while their corresponding head size does give them more jaw strength the length of the muzzle works against them lever wise. They don't have the same leverage as longer muzzled breeds like the mals or german shepherds.

That being said obviously one bites you without you wearing protection it's gonna suck. A lot.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> On the LGD issue- there was a case in Montana, I think, where two LGDs mauled a woman in a mountain bike race. Sounded like bad management all around. Pretty sad for the dogs, who were working sheep LGDs.
> 
> Here's an article on this issue in general: adventure journal ? Colorado Hikers and Bikers Under Attack from Sheep Dogs


It doesn't sound like those were being kept in pet homes.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> Pitbull wasn't bred to just go nuts indiscriminately. Ever notice that they don't often redirect once they pick a target? If you watch enough videos of them mauling something the best ones can be kicked hit with sticks and grabbed and held but they don't redirect usually. You can usually breakstick em off or choke em off a bite without worrying about redirection because the dogfighters would kill the ones that would redirect on them if they were trying to stop a fight. They purposely selected against that trait. Their prey bite and hold is not different from what people try to get out of IPO or ring dogs. The biggest factor that makes them hard to out when they are on the bite is the insensitivity when in that high state of arousal. That and the fact nobody teaches them to out in the first place.
> 
> I know a group in Maryland that uses pitbulls, amstaffs, and other bully breed dogs for PSA as well as mondio. I've caught quite a few of them. They aren't any different from nicely bred and trained GSD or Mals in terms of bite except that most of them are actually not as intense. The grips aren't anything super special. They out when you train them to out too.


I have been told by those who title(d) and trial(ed) their Pits in protection venues that the grips aren't good because Pits are reluctant to bite people, that is why many use mixed Pits, to maintain the grip while adding human aggression (Joe Lucero). I have also been told that when you get one that will grip a human, the out can be very difficult to teach (Diane Jessup).


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is what I like about Rotts and most other breeds, they can be booted off.


Trust me, I wasn't kicking soft. And if it hadn't let go I would have killed it. I rode horses, biked and ran most of my life. If I decide to kick something it is with the intention of hurting it. I did have a Pit attack my Dane. That one got a drop kick that landed it about 15 feet away. To be fair it wasn't after my dog, it was after the stroller with my son in it. Big dumb dog just body blocked, got her face and ear torn up and never fought back. Just kept getting in it's way. Who says they don't redirect? Owner yelled at me for kicking her dog. Stupid trash. AC took the dog and charged the owners.


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## jaudlee

** Personal attack and swearing. Please be civil on this board and watch the language. This is an unofficial warning. Next one will be official. ADMIN**


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Trust me, I wasn't kicking soft. And if it hadn't let go I would have killed it. I rode horses, biked and ran most of my life. If I decide to kick something it is with the intention of hurting it. I did have a Pit attack my Dane. That one got a drop kick that landed it about 15 feet away. To be fair it wasn't after my dog, it was after the stroller with my son in it. Big dumb dog just body blocked, got her face and ear torn up and never fought back. Just kept getting in it's way. Who says they don't redirect? Owner yelled at me for kicking her dog. Stupid trash. AC took the dog and charged the owners.


I agree, you can't kick softly, but you can fight other breeds off as a rule.


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## Niexist

OP said if they run into ANY unattended/unleashed dog, and an altercation begins they will kill it. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. 
If some loose dog attacks my pet while I'm taking a walk, I'm going to be joining in to help as well.


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## jaudlee

Niexist said:


> No, OP said if they run into ANY unattended/unleashed dog, and an altercation begins they will kill it. This seems perfectly reasonable to me.
> If some loose dog attacks my pet while I'm taking a walk, I'm going to be joining in to help as well.



I agree 100% that if your dog is attacked while leashed that you must do what you must do. BUT if a friendly dog is not being the provocateur and your DA dog goes after this dog then you should control YOUR dog. Yes, the dog is off leash and yes I may be biased because I live in a rural area where dogs run freely in many areas without issue.


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## Niexist

jaudlee said:


> I agree 100% that if your dog is attacked while leashed that you must do what you must do. BUT if a friendly dog is not being the provocateur and your DA dog goes after this dog then you should control YOUR dog. Yes, the dog is off leash and yes I may be biased because I live in a rural area where dogs run freely in many areas without issue.


I'm pretty sure the OP isn't talking about going around attacking random unleashed Chihuahua's. If a friendly dog comes up and you have a dog aggresive dog, I think probably the best thing to do would be to stomp and scare away the friendly dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline

jaudlee said:


> I agree 100% that if your dog is attacked while leashed that you must do what you must do. BUT if a friendly dog is not being the provocateur and your DA dog goes after this dog then you should control YOUR dog. Yes, the dog is off leash and yes I may be biased because I live in a rural area where dogs run freely in many areas without issue.


Too many people equate an off leash dog with an out of control dog. Most of the time that is just simply not the case. Off leash, but supervised and under control dogs are common where I live.


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## Niexist

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too many people equate an off leash dog with an out of control dog. Most of the time that is just simply not the case. Off leash, but supervised and under control dogs are common where I live.


I just think back to the post in this thread by a police officer who said he wouldn't take the risk of his police dog heeling off leash from his front door to the car when I hear this statement.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too many people equate an off leash dog with an out of control dog. Most of the time that is just simply not the case. Off leash, but supervised and under control dogs are common where I live.


If your off leash dog is in control, it isn't running at mine. No problem.


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## lhczth

I did some editing due to an unacceptable post that was deleted. 

Carry on.

ADMIN Lisa


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## selzer

Too many pit owners leave their dogs in ratty wooden fences, and the dogs get out and go to town on dogs, kids, cats -- anything that moves. For years and years, we GSD owners have gotten on the bandwagon to fight breed-specific legislation, because once they get rid of pit bulls and their mixes, they will come after us. 

But what is happening without BSL is that pit bull owners continue to be irresponsible with the management of their dogs, and there are attack after attack after attack by them. So now, because no one wants to appear prejudice against a specific breed, they are just curtailing all dog owners, or dog owners that have dogs over a certain size. 

GSDs bite. Sure they do. Their bites hurt, there is blood, usually people have to go to an ER to get a drain or some stitches. Rarely do they need plastic surgery to have a normal face. Rarely do people die from their injuries. And there are a LOT of GSDs and their mixes out there. 

Getting bit by a GSD as a kid is similar to having a decent wreck with a bicycle. I can be bad, it can have blood and bruising, it might mean going to the ER. But you get over it, if you parents aren't total nut-jobs, and don't completely over react.

Getting attacked by a pit bull, that is a whole other story. And for that reason, there should be different requirements in place for owning them. 

It's like bicycles, you can go fast and get injured on a bike, you are supposed to follow the rules of the road, but you don't need a license because you are unlikely to kill other people on a bicycle. But motor-vehicles require licenses that you can't get until you reach and demonstrate a level of knowledge/responsibility/accountability. 

I think the rest of the dog breed owners have taken enough of a hit from pit bulls. It might be different if every single time one of them mulls a grandmother or a little child the owners didn't trot out the worn out statements of "He's never shown any signs of aggression." And often you find out later that the dog has bitten other people and killed a pet dog or two. Pit bull owners are on their own. Sorry. I will fight tooth and nail to make sure GSDs, Dobes, and Rottys aren't lumped in with pits, but if someone wants to pass bans against them, or restrictions and requirements due to their breed, I am fine with that.


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## selzer

Niexist said:


> I just think back to the post in this thread by a police officer who said he wouldn't take the risk of his police dog heeling off leash from his front door to the car when I hear this statement.


Yeah, I read that post. Maybe the liability is just too high with a police dog. All my dogs can run to my car in the front yard without a leash. I might use one if the yard is muddy and I want them clean. But most of the time, I release them and they wait at the car for me.


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## Niexist

selzer said:


> Yeah, I read that post. Maybe the liability is just too high with a police dog. All my dogs can run to my car in the front yard without a leash. I might use one if the yard is muddy and I want them clean. But most of the time, I release them and they wait at the car for me.


I think perhaps he just doesn't want any risk, I mean, what if your dog scared a squirrel that was hiding underneath your car, and ran into the road and was hit? There are just too many variables when you're not using a leash.


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## Baillif

That variable doesn't matter if you never allow your dog to critter without heavy consequence they would rather avoid.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Niexist said:


> I just think back to the post in this thread by a police officer who said he wouldn't take the risk of his police dog heeling off leash from his front door to the car when I hear this statement.


I have to agree with him on this as their is more of a dynamic when a protective breed is on or near its property. I do not take my dogs off leash from my house to the car, I always hold their collars or leash them for that ten feet, based on that aspect as well as the nature of a very close neighborhood where it is too hard to monitor and not worth the risk.



Sabis mom said:


> If your off leash dog is in control, it isn't running at mine. No problem.


In the city, yards are small, and loose, supervised dogs are common. Dog parks are also very popular so dogs are accustomed to seeing other dogs and don't make a big fuss about it. It is an oddity to see a supervised, loose dog run up to another dog, they might take a few steps toward it, maybe even boof a time or two, but they don't charge it or go up to it, even if the other dog is reactive. Most dogs just don't go looking for fights.


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## Stonevintage

Niexist said:


> I'm pretty sure the OP isn't talking about going around attacking random unleashed Chihuahua's. If a friendly dog comes up and you have a dog aggresive dog, I think probably the best thing to do would be to stomp and scare away the friendly dog.


No, I wasn't. I see the post has been removed now, but to the poster; You failed to read my other posts - and to single out that one (imagine that) and summarily loose your head .. Post #50 Mentions that I carry spray and a Marine Air Horn to discourage stray dogs. Post #46 mentions that I have a Prong collar on to control my dog. Another post mentions that while I may be able to dampen her DA with continued training - I will never be able to trust her.

What will you have me do if my deterrents don't work? I will have control of my dog. I am 62 years old and won't be joining in the physical battle between two large dogs. Of course, the owner will be nowhere in sight (because it is a stray). Would you have me stand there and watch my dog be possibly severely wounded or killed? Would you have me expect that a stranger should intervene and drive off the dog risking harm to themselves? Or should I defend my dog and drive away the attacking dog in any way I can? There is every likelihood that I would mortally wound the dog and I have had to prepare myself to face that fact if I have to use force. 

The people who object to this are the people with aggressive dogs who let them run loose. Sorry - that's your fault, not mine. I am in the heart of the city and any stray that ignores my deterrents and keeps coming is going to be a bad doer.


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## selzer

Niexist said:


> I think perhaps he just doesn't want any risk, I mean, what if your dog scared a squirrel that was hiding underneath your car, and ran into the road and was hit? There are just too many variables when you're not using a leash.


Well, I have been in my location for about 20 years, multiple dogs, and so far that hasn't been a problem. I think we do a risk analysis for many things, and if the risk is manageable we go ahead if the benefits make sense.


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## Stonevintage

...Thought the lady before her GSD bit the child......


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## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> ...Thought the lady before her GSD bit the child......


There is a difference between taking your dog to the car, and reading a book lying in a yard. One is time. It takes you 5 minutes tops to get to the car, get the dogs loaded up, etc. It would be mighty hard for any kid to even get to my during that time. I'm not worried. 

It would take me 5 minutes to get situated in a chair with my book etc. 

It's a different scenario. When you break the dog or dogs out to go somewhere, they make a beeline for the car. When you are lying in a lawn chair, the dog is drifting in and out of sleep, or listening to the birds sing, whatever. It's apples to oranges, really.

And I can get to my dog a whole lot quicker if necessary from and upright, moving position, than from a reclined reading position.


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## Niexist

selzer said:


> There is a difference between taking your dog to the car, and reading a book lying in a yard. One is time. It takes you 5 minutes tops to get to the car, get the dogs loaded up, etc. It would be mighty hard for any kid to even get to my during that time. I'm not worried.
> 
> It would take me 5 minutes to get situated in a chair with my book etc.
> 
> It's a different scenario. When you break the dog or dogs out to go somewhere, they make a beeline for the car. When you are lying in a lawn chair, the dog is drifting in and out of sleep, or listening to the birds sing, whatever. It's apples to oranges, really.
> 
> And I can get to my dog a whole lot quicker if necessary from and upright, moving position, than from a reclined reading position.


I think with all the dogs in your signature you are very experienced Selzer. The problems occur when someone like me who is inexperienced sees the actions of someone who is experienced like you, and tries to emulate them.


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## Stonevintage

Niexist said:


> I think with all the dogs in your signature you are very experienced Selzer. The problems occur when someone like me who is inexperienced sees the actions of someone who is experienced like you, and tries to emulate them.


That is the whole deal. Selzer has years of experience. But for the very reason you sited - when a post ends up with over 5,000 page views. I try to be more careful because of the viewers. I know why it went this high and I'm glad this wasn't just another post that got shut down. 

This has been a good week for discussions in these areas though, lots of different opinions and it's that time of year when we're all getting outdoors again and will need to step it up to make sure our dog(s) stay safe and healthy.:smile2:


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## selzer

Yes, and no. 

I agree that a lot of people see these threads. 

On the other hand, there are a lot of owners out there who have good control over their stable dog and have never had to have them on lead in their front yard. 

If everyone on this site were to say, NEVER, I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER risk such a thing, then a lot of people reading these posts could be thinking, "Wow! what a bunch of crazy dogs those people must own!" or "Wow! all that training time, and these people cannot even control their dogs!" 

I got my tooth yanked out last Friday, and rather than drive all the way home, just to drive all the way back (to work), I drove about 5 miles to a business whose owners own two of my puppies. It is right on Rt. 20 in a city -- very busy road. The dogs weren't there, but he went home and brought them back so I could see them. The dog is 3 years, and the pup is 8 months. No fences, construction people everywhere, and customers coming and going in front. 

The man does Schutzhund, etc with his dogs. He let the boy out first, no lead. The dog was excited, he went over to the side where there was grass and relieved himself, said hello to a few people, came to see me, not a problem. The puppy was kept on lead when he let her out. 

It is not just me that can have enough trust in our dog or dogs, and faith in our training to let them off lead, even in busy areas. Know your dog. Some people could not allow what this man did because they know their dog WILL go after a squirrel or a dog or a cat. And some of us can be very confident that that will not happen. On all but my six month old, I trust my recall, even if there is a furry thing running about. 

So, yes, when you are out and about, or typing on the internet you want to be a model of good dog ownership. But, I don't think it is bad dog ownership to have your dogs trained to off-lead obedience, and being able to demonstrate that. I often use my leash when I see others to allay their fears, not because my dog needs an umbilical cord. And if I see another dog, I will use my lead as common courtesy. If you are worried about dog aggression, crittering, or other people coming up to your dog, than keep your dog on lead, it is not ready to be off lead yet. One would hope that most of us would reach the point where we trust our dogs to walk themselves as far as the car without a tether, at some point.

It's kind of like riding a bike. After a while, you can go no-handed whether there are cars going by or not, but if there are cars, put your hands on the handle bars to keep them happy.


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## Stonevintage

Waaaay back in the beginning of this post. when the leash was first talked about, there was discussion about how many dogs really are 100% recall trustworthy. Of this readership, how many do you think are? IMO you've just encouraged risk taking behavior and let them know that most should train with the off leash control as a goal and most should be able to accomplish it. I don't think that the dogs I've seen in my lifetime are trained to 100% recall yet many owners feel they have control in normal situations - In fact, probably less than one out of every hundred have that.. we see problems every day because of it. 

Anything less than 100% under any conditions and it is a risk taking behavior by the owner. I believe the reason Slam said he does not let his K9 just "run to the car from the house" is not because he doesn't trust his dog. It's because he doesn't want to risk his partner to something foolish. He is LE and he knows that the unexpected can happen at any time. I look to him as a good example and feel his reasons are valid.

I have lived in some pretty interesting places where the unexpected can and does happen right in the middle of the day and right in broad daylight with lots of people around. My experiences taught me to minimize risks that are not required and offer little return.

I've also found that dogs on leashes are less often a part of any of the troubles we see in the 6 breeds deemed as aggressive. The second something unexpected drops into your dog's life and he deals with it - that little off leash jaunt may end up in a huge lawsuit and the death of the dog.... with that environment as it is today - why in the world would I play the risk game with my dog?


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## Baillif

Some of us have two layers of protection. We correct our dogs for leaving us when they're in certain situations or under certain commands. We punish our dogs for going after another animal so that we don't have to rely on seeing that our dogs have locked into another animal for a potential chase. Then we have our recalls or our conditioned punishers that can bring a dog back or disusade them from a particular course of action. Also the more careful of us are reading our dogs and environment and ready to put pressure on them to let them know they had better stick close or be wary of particular courses of action. Sometimes we avoid situations where control might be especially difficult or there is something out of our control we must be wary of.

There are multiple layers of behavior training and conditioning at play. We are not just reliant on single commands.


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## Stonevintage

Thank you Bailiff. I don't think the average dog owner is aware of all that goes into training a dog to level. All looks well - until it isn't....


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## Baillif

Another layer of protection I have I forget to mention is I never allow strange dog meetings in public. They happen at the kennel yard only and because of that my dogs never expect a strange dog meeting anywhere else and as a result know that it won't happen so they don't bother trying.


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## Stonevintage

When I was at the outdoor cafe last weekend. It was a strange and unexpected scenario that played out. My dog is DA and as I had mentioned on a previous post, she had not been out all winter.

The place next door and around the corner where I was seated is a place where you can go and drink wine and paint. It's a relaxed environment called Pinot & Palette, it's new and people seem to love it.

Wouldn't you know - the afternoon I chose to take Summer out - they had hosted a "paint your dog day". So when class let out, there were all these happy, tipsy people with their painting in one hand and controlling their dog with the other - all walking past within about 15 feet of Summer going to their cars.....:surprise:

She went ballistic with the first one - but the prong did it's job and I was able to hold her in a sit and use my arm and give her the sit command, by the time the 6th dog walked by 5 minutes later - she was a lot calmer but still "cussed them out" by that point I was holding her lips closed and telling her no....

My observation though - all those well trained leashed dogs came around the corner and were surprised by my rude dog and ALL of them let out a string of doggy cuss words right back and half of them pulled on the leash to come towards my seated dog.... Any dog when confronted with a DA dog is going to issue their own "off me or else warning" - any one of them off leash and there could have been a problem.


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## voodoolamb

Rotties - this is the breed I personally am afraid of. I had two terrifying encounters as a child /teen. I was walking my mixed breed and a rot that was chained outdoors broke the chain and charged at me and my dog. My dog got inbetween me and the rot and they engaged.I climbed on top of a car and screamed for help. It took two adult men repeatedly hitting the rot with a shovel and pulling the rot by his back legs to get him off. When they did separate the rot turned it's attack onto the guy. 

The second incident was while I was riding my bike without a dog. A person in my neighborhood had 6 rots. Sire, dam and 4 adult pups. Riding by the entire pack charged the fence. 1 of the group went up and over the 6 foot chain link fence and proceeded to chase me. I literally rode my bike into a lake to get away. 

I have since also been growled at by a hand full of rots. Maybe they sense my apprehension? 

I personally have never been at the receiving end of pit aggression. And I've interacted with waaaaay more pits then rots in my life. 

Still no desire to see the breed banned. 

I do worry about the slippery slope of BSL. I think it is Ireland that includes german shepherds in it's nation wide BSL. It's like a dozen or so breeds. Must be kept on short leash and muzzled when ever off the owner's property. They are considered defector dangerous/viscous. Not good. 

BSL is not the answer. I don't mind regulations. Banning breeds is not the answer. Not fair. I kinda see pit bull ownership along the lines of gun ownership. A gun in irresponsible hands is deadly. A pit bull in irresponsible hands is also dangerous. But to keep responsible people from these things just seems wrong to me. Regulations fine. Extra rules sure. Back ground checks okay. Just no out right bans. 

As much as I love pits and my previous was a rescue - i have no problem with 'no adopt' policies for pits that find their way into the animal control/shelter system. The best thing that could happen for the breed IMHO would be a drastic decline in popularity amongst the pet crowd. There are plenty of breeds out there just as dangerous as pits if not more so. Luckily their relative rarity keeps them in the hands of true breed fanciers who understand and are willing to manage the dogs as the need.

There was some talk of pits in protection sports. I actually know a handful of pit owners who actually got involved in IPO JUST so they could teach a solid out and manage the dog in drive. 

As for 100% reliable recall. I can't remember a time when my pit disobeyed a command. I did call him off from chasing a rabid raccoon once. I never intentionally put him in a position where I had to test that with domestic animals. He was basically leashed except for when in my fenced back yard or on my sister's farm. I probably COULD have had him off leash and he would have obeyed buy because he WAS a pit, I wanted to play safe then sorry. The very few times we encountered another dog while he was loose (strays on the farm) I always noticed them far before we reached his distance threshold and he was leashed. 

Like another poster, my pit never hurt another animal once I took ownership of him. Except bugs. He was a master bug hunter.

I have more to say, but it's not really about pits per se so I will make a second post


----------



## Niexist

Maybe if felons can't own pit bulls the same as they can't own guns we'd have a lot less of these problems.


----------



## Stonevintage

I have posted that my former dog did kill other dogs, she was a 1/2 AST. I posted this fact a year ago, 6 mos ago and in this post....

To this day - I have not seen one other post where anyone has come forward to say - yea, I had a dog on the 6 aggressive breed list and they killed a dog or severely harmed one.

I guess I'm the only one that's ever had that happen....


----------



## selzer

Stonevintage, 

Lightning can come down out of the sky and hit one of my dogs. But, I have to go to work and they are more comfortable outside than in a box for 10 hours, so, I leave them out in their kennels. 

So far, it hasn't happened. They are comfortable. But it is a risk. In NE Ohio, it seems to be a risk every day (though we have had nice weather now since the snow storm last weekend). 

Having a dog on lead actually can cause issues. Dogs have a flight or fight response as well as the fact that guarding breeds often feel as though they are guarding that which they are connected to. So there are some instincts that the lead kind of increases. So when your dog lashed out at the leashed dogs, they knew darn well that if it came down to it, they would have to fight so they argued back. Lots of times dog park issues are caused by leashed dogs in areas where dogs are supposed to be off-lead. 

Ah well. 

Frankly, your dog is not ready to be taken to an outdoor café. And if I was there, I would be upset that you brought a dog like that to such a setting. I would be wanting to enjoy my food, and your dog's inability to cope with the world would be upsetting my wa. I'd be paying to be there and I wouldn't want to feel like going over there, grabbing the leash out of your hand an smacking you upside the head. It's rude. We take our well-behaved dogs places, and then we do not overwhelm people with their presence. 

If you had to hang onto your dog's muzzle to try and quiet the dog down, sorry you had no business being where you were with the dog. 

See, here is what is so common in Americans. (And yes, I am an American.) When we cannot manage something, then we tend to believe that no one else can either. Than we either get jealous of people who are able to, or we feel smaller than people who can, or afraid that they can't and we want Father Government to make laws to make it unlawful for us to see other people doing something that we don't think we can do.

Cut that out. 

If you would like to take your dog to an outdoor café, work on the dog and get it to the point where it behaves, listens to your commands, and ignores other dogs FIRST. Or, just don't. Don't be mad at everyone else for having a dog that can do these things. 

Some of us actually can work an unleashed dog around leashed dogs and unleashed dogs, and we have the titles. We can take dogs to huge shows with thousands of dogs that we have never seen before and let kids half the dog's size walk them out of there. We are able to do this because we know the dog. We know what the dog is going to do. We know what the dog is not going to do. We have a handle on the dog, and it wouldn't be there if he couldn't handle it. 

And yes, some yayhoos bring dogs that aren't ready, or not entered, and sometimes they do charge at our dogs, and we know how to manage that too, so no one gets hurt, and our dog does not need to go into full-attack mode. Way before the shows, we have been to classes and to pet stores, and we have had our dogs charged, and we managed those situations too, so that the dogs, by the time they get to a show, know we have them covered.

No prong collars or e-collars were used in the making of the above story. 

I expect LEO handlers on this site may be a cut above the rest, or maybe some of the LEO handlers I have seen are not up to par, but I can understand them not wanting to risk letting a police dog go from front door to car off lead. Most of the ones I have seen in person are terribly dog aggressive, and I have even been charged by one with one of my males. They are high energy, high drive, but also they have a lot of training. Some of that training is listening to the handler, even in the thick of things. But some is to go on, continue, bite, whatever, aggress. And what an LEO has on the line if his dog screws up is more than what I have on the line. My dogs have not been conditioned to bite in any circumstance, so the chances of them making that decision is a little less. I won't lose my job if my dog bites someone because I made a decision my dog wasn't ready for. It is highly unlikely for my dog to be put down if it does make the wrong choice -- it will probably bite once or twice, while a police dog will likely do serious damage if they make the wrong choice. Add all that to the higher drives, prey drive, etc, and the likelihood of issues are just maybe more of a risk than an LEO might want to take. I am comfortable with it.


----------



## Niexist

Well I also shared the story of our rottie Stonevintage. We didn't get rid of her and she lived a very full life to 15.


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## selzer

I've never had a dog kill another dog. There have been some inter-pack fights, a few stitches, drains, and shaved spots was measure of that. And, my brother's bitch, while living with me, did kill the neighbor's kitten. I am not sure how I would feel about a dog that killed another dog, whether that level of aggression was something I wanted to have going on. It would be hard.


----------



## voodoolamb

I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, but I live in a bad neighborhood. Like really bad. As in gun shots fired on the regular, drug busts, the smell of burning Marijuauana wafting through the air on every fine evening, crack head living in my neighbor's crawl space, the neighborhood being mentioned in rap songs... 

As you can imagine there are a LOT of pit bulls and rotties in my neighborhood. On my street my neighbor on the right has a pit. Two houses down from him has 2 pits. Across the street has one pit. Three houses down to the left has 2 pits and a long haired mutt of some sort. Across from them has 3 pit types (the might be dogos or American bull dogs though). There is a rott on the corner. 1 Street over is another rot and another 2 pits that I know of. There are probably more but I don't go through that way very often. 

We do not have a problem with them here. 

We do however have a very very visible animal control presence. They do random drive throughs a few times a week. 

I always take me senior dog out to potty in the front yard because there are fewer steps and it is easier on him. I never have him on leash - at his age I can 100% of the time out run him if I just use a brisk walk. He likes to take his time and sniff all the sniffs. I have actually gotten to know the AC officers. Because for a long while everytime they saw him loose they would stop. They checked to make sure he was licensed and was up to date on his shots. That he WAS under control. They also passed out pamphlets with info about free rabies shots, low cost and free spay and neuters and other vaccine clinics. Now they just wave to me as they drive by cause they've checked to make sure we are on the up and up often enough.

In the 4 years I have lived here there have only been 2 times I have seen a large dog loose 1 pit that got out a screen door. I tossed a leash around his neck and asked the drug dealers down the street if they new him. They did. One shep mix that got into my neighbors yard and into it with his pit. Oh There is a little froo froo dog that is loose all the time though. 

Targeting of at risk neighborhoods by animal control seems to be working pretty well here. 

Stone, have you thought about putting together a little walking the dog survival kit? I know you have your air horn. But maybe some mace, an extra slip lead, whistle, and dare I say it - since pit bulls are an issue in your area a break stick (not even suggesting that you use it yourself if you are not comfortable but having the tool available to the pit owner/who ever comes to your rescue). Being fully armed and having a plan of action for a worse case scenario might help put your mind at ease a bit. Keep some of that tension from going down the lead. 

Are you working with a trainer for summer's reactiveness or are you DIY?


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, not because it makes the breed less dangerous but because it draws the GSD people out to protect their breed which is not doing the deed.
> 
> Example, if laws were passed to revoke everybody's driver's license for six months because some people drive drunk, the masses would be out in force fighting the unfair regulation that punishes everybody for the ways of a few.
> 
> This is the same thing that reckless Pit owners are trying to do everytime people call for some kind of action due to the action of their Pits. They try to get GSDs, Rotts, Dobes, etc., dragged into their mess so that people like us are drawn into their battle and do their fighting for them.


They need to fight their own battles.


----------



## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> Frankly, your dog is not ready to be taken to an outdoor café. And if I was there, I would be upset that you brought a dog like that to such a setting. I would be wanting to enjoy my food, and your dog's inability to cope with the world would be upsetting my wa. I'd be paying to be there and I wouldn't want to feel like going over there, grabbing the leash out of your hand an smacking you upside the head. It's rude. We take our well-behaved dogs places, and then we do not overwhelm people with their presence.
> 
> If you had to hang onto your dog's muzzle to try and quiet the dog down, sorry you had no business being where you were with the dog.
> 
> See, here is what is so common in Americans. (And yes, I am an American.) When we cannot manage something, then we tend to believe that no one else can either. Than we either get jealous of people who are able to, or we feel smaller than people who can, or afraid that they can't and we want Father Government to make laws to make it unlawful for us to see other people doing something that we don't think we can do.
> 
> Cut that out.
> 
> If you would like to take your dog to an outdoor café, work on the dog and get it to the point where it behaves, listens to your commands, and ignores other dogs FIRST. Or, just don't. Don't be mad at everyone else for having a dog that can do these things.
> 
> No prong collars or e-collars were used in the making of the above story.


Sorry but no bad wa? happened or was disturbed at the outdoor cafe. I would never dream of taking her there when they were busy and had customers.

There were 9 of us sitting outside. 2 customers, myself, 5 employees and a friend. They all asked where Summer was and I explained the DA problem. All told me go home (to the end of the block) and bring her back. The two customers were all good. The minute I came around the corner with her - one of the employees said as a reminder - now Summer's going to feel a little uncomfortable but she's been her lots of times before (before she became DA) - let's just all give her a little room and all will be fine.

It worked out better than I could have ever expected. Even thru the parade of dogs all 8 of my friends had our back and would have been there in a second if there was any problem. The two diners were happy watching the group effort unfold and Summer was ever so gentle accepting treats from them and loving their pets. It was a great experience for her - all good. 

I'm really surprised that you would think I would just plop down in an area full of diners with a problem dog.:surprise:


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Stonevintage,
> 
> Lightning can come down out of the sky and hit one of my dogs. But, I have to go to work and they are more comfortable outside than in a box for 10 hours, so, I leave them out in their kennels.
> 
> So far, it hasn't happened. They are comfortable. But it is a risk. In NE Ohio, it seems to be a risk every day (though we have had nice weather now since the snow storm last weekend).
> 
> Having a dog on lead actually can cause issues. Dogs have a flight or fight response as well as the fact that guarding breeds often feel as though they are guarding that which they are connected to. So there are some instincts that the lead kind of increases. So when your dog lashed out at the leashed dogs, they knew darn well that if it came down to it, they would have to fight so they argued back. Lots of times dog park issues are caused by leashed dogs in areas where dogs are supposed to be off-lead.
> 
> Ah well.
> 
> Frankly, your dog is not ready to be taken to an outdoor café. And if I was there, I would be upset that you brought a dog like that to such a setting. I would be wanting to enjoy my food, and your dog's inability to cope with the world would be upsetting my wa. I'd be paying to be there and I wouldn't want to feel like going over there, grabbing the leash out of your hand an smacking you upside the head. It's rude. We take our well-behaved dogs places, and then we do not overwhelm people with their presence.
> 
> If you had to hang onto your dog's muzzle to try and quiet the dog down, sorry you had no business being where you were with the dog.
> 
> See, here is what is so common in Americans. (And yes, I am an American.) When we cannot manage something, then we tend to believe that no one else can either. Than we either get jealous of people who are able to, or we feel smaller than people who can, or afraid that they can't and we want Father Government to make laws to make it unlawful for us to see other people doing something that we don't think we can do.
> 
> Cut that out.
> 
> If you would like to take your dog to an outdoor café, work on the dog and get it to the point where it behaves, listens to your commands, and ignores other dogs FIRST. Or, just don't. Don't be mad at everyone else for having a dog that can do these things.
> 
> Some of us actually can work an unleashed dog around leashed dogs and unleashed dogs, and we have the titles. We can take dogs to huge shows with thousands of dogs that we have never seen before and let kids half the dog's size walk them out of there. We are able to do this because we know the dog. We know what the dog is going to do. We know what the dog is not going to do. We have a handle on the dog, and it wouldn't be there if he couldn't handle it.
> 
> And yes, some yayhoos bring dogs that aren't ready, or not entered, and sometimes they do charge at our dogs, and we know how to manage that too, so no one gets hurt, and our dog does not need to go into full-attack mode. Way before the shows, we have been to classes and to pet stores, and we have had our dogs charged, and we managed those situations too, so that the dogs, by the time they get to a show, know we have them covered.
> 
> No prong collars or e-collars were used in the making of the above story.
> 
> I expect LEO handlers on this site may be a cut above the rest, or maybe some of the LEO handlers I have seen are not up to par, but I can understand them not wanting to risk letting a police dog go from front door to car off lead. Most of the ones I have seen in person are terribly dog aggressive, and I have even been charged by one with one of my males. They are high energy, high drive, but also they have a lot of training. Some of that training is listening to the handler, even in the thick of things. But some is to go on, continue, bite, whatever, aggress. And what an LEO has on the line if his dog screws up is more than what I have on the line. My dogs have not been conditioned to bite in any circumstance, so the chances of them making that decision is a little less. I won't lose my job if my dog bites someone because I made a decision my dog wasn't ready for. It is highly unlikely for my dog to be put down if it does make the wrong choice -- it will probably bite once or twice, while a police dog will likely do serious damage if they make the wrong choice. Add all that to the higher drives, prey drive, etc, and the likelihood of issues are just maybe more of a risk than an LEO might want to take. I am comfortable with it.


Sue! You rock!


----------



## Stonevintage

voodoolamb said:


> Stone, have you thought about putting together a little walking the dog survival kit? I know you have your air horn. But maybe some mace, an extra slip lead, whistle, and dare I say it - since pit bulls are an issue in your area a break stick (not even suggesting that you use it yourself if you are not comfortable but having the tool available to the pit owner/who ever comes to your rescue). Being fully armed and having a plan of action for a worse case scenario might help put your mind at ease a bit. Keep some of that tension from going down the lead.
> 
> Are you working with a trainer for summer's reactiveness or are you DIY?


Yes, I have the mace, marine air horn and ice pick. All cleared with LE. When I first read about the break stick I thought perfect - I will carry one of those. Unfortunately, the 4 different websites I found them offered on all had similar instructions. Once you get the break stick wedged in and properly placed - you have to straddle the pit, grip with your thighs and lift straight back up over the pit's head....

Oh.... straddling a strange pit and putting my(thigh) femoral arteries at the exact position (in my inner thighs) and those jaws will, if the dog redirects on whats on him and gripping him bleed me out in less than 3 minutes.

Nope. and I wouldn't want a stranger to try it either.A break stick sounds like an easy answer - but man - not going there.


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## voodoolamb

Fair enough stone. Different comfort levels  

Glad you have a kit though.

If you ever change your mind on break sticks or if anyone else here is interested in them... Don't bother with the specially designed (expensive) ones. A plastic tent stake is just as effective.


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## Stonevintage

Time to bring topic back again. If dogs were leashed and under that control - none of these things would have to be discussed. But - some know better and choose to defy the laws and it's all good... until it isn't.


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## Stonevintage

Is the proper use that I mentioned true IYO? Do you have to straddle the pit and grip with your thighs after the stick is placed to get a release?


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## Stonevintage

Here is a use of the break stick theory. They had the principal right but nothing but board pieces which are more likely to be available.

LiveLeak.com - pit bull attacks chow chow (comments)


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## Baillif

Probably going to get those comments deleted. They were not using it right. If you want to know how to do it right send me a PM and I'll tell you how. We keep them at the kennel in an emergency, but often because of their association with dogfighting people consider it a taboo topic.


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## MineAreWorkingline

How to use a breakstick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfMVH4wY5Pg


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## Baillif

That would be it


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## voodoolamb

Oh hey. He uses a tent stake to XD

Learned that one in rescue. Break sticks are taboo. Random tent stakes are random

I have used it on a pit by straddling and holding his collar much like in the video posted. Also did it on a dog hanging several feet off the ground in a full on bear hug trying to keep him from being pulled up higher.

I would prefer not to repeat that last one.


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## Stonevintage

I want to apologize for my attached clip on the chow. I posted the wrong one. This is a wikeleak and they sensationalize everything and cut it before;

They did get the wood wedge right - the finally got cooperation of the owner to pull up and back. The Chow did get right up and didn't appear to be mortally wounded - he walked off with his owner. One thing in the video - the men assisting were "sitting" on the victim and holding the aggressor for a reason - to minimize damage to either dog. Otherwise, the head shaking would have been damaging. Again my apologies, but this one had a much better outcome than most. The wood wedge did work when they got it placed properly and the owner finally pulled up and back as they had been instructing him to do all along.


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## Baillif

Yeah every so often I get asked how to safetly break up a dog fight by a client and I'm like um... let me ask you a question...how do you pull a quarter out of a blender when the blender is on without getting your fingers cut? The answer to both questions is the same.


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## voodoolamb

That is why I suggested an extra slip lead for an emergency kit. 

If a bad fight would ever need to be broken up - the extra slip lead would be used to be able to hold back the second dog.

The one bad fight I broke up on my own. While three grown men watched (they had no clue how to get the dog off). I looped a makeshift slip lead around the victim dog and tied it to a fence. Grabbed the pit by the collar. Stretched the pair out. Broke the grip. I was safely out of reach of the victim dog's retaliation and I had control of the pit's head by holding his collar high up his neck and tightly.

Having both dogs restrained is the safer way to breakup up the fight then sitting on one.

*don't try this at home disclaimer here*


----------



## voodoolamb

Ack. I suck at reading. I didn't realize the point of sitting on the chow was to minimise hold and shake damage. Carry on. 

I haven't watched the video yet.


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## Stonevintage

Properly leashed or yarded dogs would take care of 99% of these problems. A leash must be a difficult tool to learn to use......


----------



## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> Sorry but no bad wa? happened or was disturbed at the outdoor cafe. I would never dream of taking her there when they were busy and had customers.
> 
> There were 9 of us sitting outside. 2 customers, myself, 5 employees and a friend. They all asked where Summer was and I explained the DA problem. All told me go home (to the end of the block) and bring her back. The two customers were all good. The minute I came around the corner with her - one of the employees said as a reminder - now Summer's going to feel a little uncomfortable but she's been her lots of times before (before she became DA) - let's just all give her a little room and all will be fine.
> 
> It worked out better than I could have ever expected. Even thru the parade of dogs all 8 of my friends had our back and would have been there in a second if there was any problem. The two diners were happy watching the group effort unfold and Summer was ever so gentle accepting treats from them and loving their pets. It was a great experience for her - all good.
> 
> I'm really surprised that you would think I would just plop down in an area full of diners with a problem dog.:surprise:


 
I was really surprised when I read your post. It sounds like a much better scene the way you describe it now.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think it was to stop the Chow from fighting back.


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## Slamdunc

A break stick is very simple and we use them to "out" dogs in training and can even be employed quickly and safely on a "real" bite. We make a very simple tool that is easy to carry and easy to use. A guy in upstate NY even makes one and sells it, similar to a modified Gerber tool. 

Sorry, I haven't read most of the thread. My main focus is getting dogs off people, quickly and efficiently. Dogs fights as Bailif correctly stated are another story. I really like the blender analogy. I prefer to stop dog fights before they have a chance to start. I've taken my dog off a dozen or so people and only one dog. The vast majority, 75% or better of the "real" bites were verbally outed.


----------



## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> Properly leashed or yarded dogs would take care of 99% of these problems. A leash must be a difficult tool to learn to use......


Ya know, in many places, where dogs are dogs, and not little fur-kids, and people know how to treat them and manage them, they can walk along with their owners, off lead, without constant fighting, or biting people. It used to be that dogs hung around. People put the dog out for the night, or kids ran around with their dog all day. And there were no heart attacks about the behavior. 

Something got broken somewhere. People expect way too much out of dogs, and at the same time, dogs seem to have lost a natural dog-dog relationship. I am sure there were dog fights back in the day too. But now it just seems that neither owners or dogs can cope with normal life without being within their bubble, or having their umbilical cord, usually attached to a prong collar. 

The dude with all the fox hounds, riding his bike across busy thoroughfares, down to the lake/pond -- that is so darn impressive. I am not saying everyone should be able to do that with a pack of dogs, but we should be able to do it with one. Shouldn't we?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Ya know, in many places, where dogs are dogs, and not little fur-kids, and people know how to treat them and manage them, they can walk along with their owners, off lead, without constant fighting, or biting people. It used to be that dogs hung around. People put the dog out for the night, or kids ran around with their dog all day. And there were no heart attacks about the behavior.
> 
> Something got broken somewhere. People expect way too much out of dogs, and at the same time, dogs seem to have lost a natural dog-dog relationship. I am sure there were dog fights back in the day too. But now it just seems that neither owners or dogs can cope with normal life without being within their bubble, or having their umbilical cord, usually attached to a prong collar.
> 
> The dude with all the fox hounds, riding his bike across busy thoroughfares, down to the lake/pond -- that is so darn impressive. I am not saying everyone should be able to do that with a pack of dogs, but we should be able to do it with one. Shouldn't we?


Do you ever think that part of the problem is that people never let their dogs off leash or unfenced?


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## voodoolamb

Ok I watched the chow video. On one hand I gotta say for the most part the guys did not panic. That was good. (Unless the panic happened before the filming started). No trying to pull the dog off, no crazy kicking or hitting it. That just revs them up more.

With the proper tool, instead of a board that entire ordeal would have been over in seconds.

The chow should have been leashed. After he stopped kneeling on it it was lashing out at the other dog and the people. A few close calls.

Wish I could have seen the actual release though.

Slamdunc - thanks for that tidbit of knowledge! Very cool.


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## Stonevintage

Summer walks with 2 leashes and 2 collars for that reason. The 2nd clip is tucked behind and to the side of the flat clip-on off but tough collar. Her main collar prong is clipped to the primary leash as is the secondary collar via a leather braided 2 clip system that attaches both collars - One for primary- one incase the prong decides to just drop to the ground (like it did last week) and the secondary for a public assist that I just have to pop the rubber band on and it will play out and drag.


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## Stonevintage

If you google it pit chow you can get the clip where there is the release. It ain't pretty as they were using boards and not a break stick but one guy got in from behind in got the board in at the back end of the jaw/teeth and pried from there - wala... leverage.

No one's answered my question yet though.... to get an effective lever with a break stick - is it necessary to straddle the pit's back- squeeze it's body with your thighs and pull straight back? The video seems to demonstrate this. Again - i'm a little protective of my femoral arteries running very close to my inner thighs.....


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> Summer walks with 2 leashes and 2 collars for that reason. The 2nd clip is tucked behind and to the side of the flat clip-on off but tough collar. Her main collar prong is clipped to the primary leash as is the secondary collar via a leather braided 2 clip system that attaches both collars - One for primary- one incase the prong decides to just drop to the ground (like it did last week) and the secondary for a public assist that I just have to pop the rubber band on and it will play out and drag.



Sorry, but I am confused. Is there a leash connected directly to the prong collar and not to anything else? Why two leashes? 

Do you use a Herm Springer prong collar? That is the only brand that I would ever use and have only had one come apart in 20 years. 

I would use on leash, one prong and if you are really frantic, a nylon choke collar that is longer and use that as a safety collar should the prong pop off. The nylon slip collar will stay attached to your dog. 

No offense, I have read some of your posts, but does this dog really require all of this? Or, are you over compensating for your own anxiety?


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## Stonevintage

The chow should have been leashed???? What if it had total recall? Hahaha!


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## MineAreWorkingline

There was no reason for the Chow to be leashed. It is very obvious from the video that he was not the problem dog.


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## selzer

ok, I saw the chow pit bull video. 

That was awful. 

All the way to the end.


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## Stonevintage

Voodoo - here is what you were asking about.

Yes, HS and it does operate properly with this system. I believe the braided connector is what you were asking about. This is not laid out properly but it does work.:smile2:


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## Stonevintage

sorry - my last reply was to Slam not Voodoo. Does that system make sense to you Slam?


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## Stonevintage

Slam - I tried training her on the nylon choke - at 5 mos, 9 mos and 1/5 years. She absolutely goes bananas and chokes herself out. I held and maintained my resolution on the 3rd try - she was absolutely choking herself out and would not budge.


----------



## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> Slam - I tried training her on the nylon choke - at 5 mos, 9 mos and 1/5 years. She absolutely goes bananas and chokes herself out. I held and maintained my resolution on the 3rd try - she was absolutely choking herself out and would not budge.


I suppose I was not clear in what I was describing. The nylon choke is your safety in case the prong comes off. If the prong comes apart the nylon choke remains on the dog. The nylon choke is not used for corrections. 

I'm sorry, but I would never use that rig that you have. It seems to be totally ineffective and overkill. What I get from this is that you lack control over this dog and compensate with a second leash and collar attached to the primary leash. This may give you a sense of control, but it really doesn't. 

Is all this about the sweet dog that you have pictured in your avatar? If that is the case, put a prong on your dog and go for a walk. Take charge and if your dog acts up, give it a correction that has some meaning and makes an impression. I'm sure this can be done on a flat collar. Tell your dog to "knock it off" correct and move on. Life will be so much easier, if you take charge, relax and let your dog know who is in charge. 

Use one leash and go for a walk, what you have there is the most ridiculous thing I have seen. :wink2: It may make you feel more secure, but it is not going to make your dog any easier to handle. The dog in your picture does not need all this, one good correction would take care of all your worries on your walks. This getup is making your prong useless. IMHO


----------



## Baillif

I go with nylon choke as a safety collar and prong. The tab or leash is connected to both the live ring and the nylon collar ring. Only one leash necessary and the only way you lose a dog is if the head comes off.

Oops Slam beat me to it.


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## voodoolamb

> There was no reason for the Chow to be leashed. It is very obvious from the video that he was not the problem dog.


That chow absolutely should have been leashed while breaking up that fight. It was in pain. It was panicked. It was lashing out and snapping at the pit and the helpers. 

That is exactly how you get bit breaking up a fight. Redirected aggression.

A slip lead around the chow's neck and a helper holding it tight at the end of the length or having it tied off somewhere would have been much safer.


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## Stonevintage

Why does my dog tolerate the hs just fine, and the flat just fine and totally revolts against the slip or the "nylon choke".??


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> That chow absolutely should have been leashed while breaking up that fight. It was in pain. It was panicked. It was lashing out and snapping at the pit and the helpers.
> 
> That is exactly how you get bit breaking up a fight. Redirected aggression.
> 
> A slip lead around the chow's neck and a helper holding it tight at the end of the length or having it tied off somewhere would have been much safer.


I have seen enough Pit Bull fights to know that Pit owners jump in and get control of the victim first so that their Pit Bulls don't get harmed. They could have easily confined the Pit so he could not shake and cause pain and damage to the Chow, but that would mean the Chow would have been able to bite the Pit. Pit owners don't find their Pits being hurt acceptable but are okay with the other dog being hurt by their Pits. Nope, seen it in real life way too many times. Anything goes but letting the Pit get hurt.

Insofar as getting bit by the Chow, that is the chance you take when you choose to own a dog fighting breed and it latches on to another dog. You want to play YOU got to pay.


----------



## Slamdunc

The way I and bailif are describing the slip collar is not as a correction collar. It is a safety to keep hold of the dog should the prong come off. Like chains attached to a car when towing a trailer. If the hitch ball comes off the chains keep the trailer from flying down the street. 

It is really hard to say why your dog reacts to the slip collar and not the prong? It could be the type of correction that you are giving? It could be the way the prong is fitted on your dog. The pong should be high and tight under the mandibles. It should not move very easily on your dog's neck. I'm thinking because of the all the other jewelry on your dog's neck, the "Mister T" starter set, is interfering with the proper functionality of the prong collar. Put the prong on with nothing else and go for a walk, you will see an effect.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> The way I and bailif are describing the slip collar is not as a correction collar. It is a safety to keep hold of the dog should the prong come off. Like chains attached to a car when towing a trailer. If the hitch ball comes off the chains keep the trailer from flying down the street.
> 
> It is really hard to say why your dog reacts to the slip collar and not the prong? It could be the type of correction that you are giving? It could be the way the prong is fitted on your dog. The pong should be high and tight under the mandibles. It should not move very easily on your dog's neck. I'm thinking because of the all the other jewelry on your dog's neck, the "Mister T" starter set, is interfering with the proper functionality of the prong collar. Put the prong on with nothing else and go for a walk, you will see an effect.


Mr. T starter kit? You're killing me! :smile2:


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## Blitzkrieg1

Weird thread... 
Punish the nonsense behaviours, teach the dog to heel and stay in the heel. Punish the dog for leaving heel under distraction. Worry about your dog as this seems to be the primary problem not some relaxed dog lying on the ground waiting for its owner outside the store. Unless you live in a dog park it will be fine. Problem solved in a day or two.


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## Slamdunc

https://finickypenguin.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/mr-t1.jpg


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## viking

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Mr. T starter kit? You're killing me! :smile2:


That was particularly chuckle-worthy.


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## Stonevintage

Ok. Flat only and I will just hard correct and life will be good. Thanks Slam. 10-4


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## voodoolamb

> The chow should have been leashed???? What if it had total recall? Hahaha


Oh well of course a well trained chow with a 100% recall is very different. The owner would have just needed to call it and it would come ****, high water, or dragging a latched on pit. 



> No one's answered my question yet though.... to get an effective lever with a break stick - is it necessary to straddle the pit's back- squeeze it's body with your thighs and pull straight back?


Yes and no. The leverage comes from the wedge shape and the twisting action alone. Like I said I have used it while hugging a snake - bit dog against my body. Holding him like a baby in one hand and break stick in the other. Reached my arm around to use the stick on the opposite side of his body.

However. Holding the dog's hip with your legs and elevating him by the collar - gives you the most control over the dog. He can't crab walk to the side he can't use the ground to push off on. When the grip is broken a proper hold and lift pulls him out of the way to keep him from biting again. This is why it is important the victim dog is restrained as it may lunge for the aggressor at this point. A good tight hold on the back of the collar keeps the dog at arms length. It keeps you put of harms way. 

Both pits I broke apart held onto the break stick. No redirection. That's not uncommon with them. But ymmv. Here's another don't try this at home disclaimer. 

I mean I hope no one ever has to do it. But Atleast knowing how the process works could save a lot of heartache and pain if heaven forbid you ever do find yourself in a situation like in that video.


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## MineAreWorkingline

It doesn't matter if the Chow was well trained or not. It was the Pit Bull that was latched on, not the Chow. 

It is not about the least amount of damage to the Pit or the Pit's owner. It is about the least amount of damage to the victim.


----------



## Chai

Dunkirk said:


> Pit bulls are a restricted breed in Queensland with regulations:
> 
> Section 55 of the Companion Animals Act 1988 contains restrictions for the prescribed breeds (see above)
> 
> The owners of restricted dogs must comply with the following requirements:
> 
> The dog must be kept in a child proof enclosure.
> The dog cannot be in the sole charge of a person under the age of 18 years.
> One or more signs “ Warning Dangerous Dogs” must be displayed on the boundaries of the property
> When the dog is away from its normal property it must be under the effective control of a competent person
> The dog cannot be sold to a person less than 18 years of age
> The dog owner must notify the Local Council of the following matters
> That the dog has attacked or injured a person or animal (within 24 hours)
> That the dog cannot be found (within 24 hours)
> That the dog has died (as soon as possible)
> That the dog’s ownership has changed (within 24 hours)
> That the dog is no longer being ordinarily kept in the area of the council (as soon as possible)
> That the dog is being ordinarily kept at a different location in the area of the council (as soon as possible).
> 
> I only occasionally see dogs tied up outside stores/malls in Queensland, and they've all been nice well behaved pets.


GSD's were also a restricted breed for us once too. 

I also see dogs tied up around stores, but never have come across or heard of 'hitching posts' for dogs. I don't think it's something that is encouraged, just tolerated. On the other hand, it's becoming common now to find dog friendly restaurants with outdoor dining space, they are a-plenty here in the west and I often wonder how people who don't like dogs cope.


----------



## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> Ok. Flat only and I will just hard correct and life will be good. Thanks Slam. 10-4


SV,
You may need the prong, a flat collar may not give you the leverage that you need. I am willing to be that I could walk and control your dog o a flat collar. You have a beautiful dog in your avatar. I don't see "Cujo" in that picture, but, I think perhaps that you do. 

I am not making light of your situation, by any means. I just think the way you are going about it, and your extra precautions are overkill and unnecessary. 

Everything is relative, and a good correction from me might be different than what you consider a good correction. 

A good correction is designed to extinguish a behavior immediately, and one the dog remembers for a long time. A good correction for dog aggression should instantly stop the aggressive behavior. Now, if your dog redirects, or shows displaced aggression than you have to consider other options.

I have a seriously dog aggressive dog, and a strong dog to boot. He will not look at another dog while on lead. I have zero tolerance for dog aggression and he knows it. I will not even allow him to bark at my new male dog while they are in the car together. They are in separate crates, but can see each other. I am sure my corrections are harder than yours. I am also sure my dog needs and can handle a harder correction, especially for dog aggression. 

So, yes a hard correction, a firm hand and proper praise and reward when the dog is correct and your problems will be solved. And I'm not being flip at all.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> https://finickypenguin.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/mr-t1.jpg


You're too funny! :grin2:


----------



## Saito

I don't exactly see the attack in that video.
I just see one dog holding another.

-Chow Chows are well known to be very unfriendly...to people and dogs.
-Those both look like unneutered males to me.
-That area doesn't look the most affluent to me...increasing likliness of both those dogs being untrained and not properly socialised.

So...we have two in tact, unfamiliar, untrained males interacting...one breed known to be nasty to any type of stranger...the other known to hold its own if it needs to.

What happened 5-10 minutes before what we see in that video? My guess is that chow chow aggressed and the terrier said "WTF? NOPE!" 
Seriously...if someone started punching you in the face...would you just let them continue as they pleased? Would you defend yourself until you are certain you are safe? Or are you going to punch them back, but not too hard, afraid you'll hurt them?
My guess is option 2...which is likely what happened here.
If your daughters and wives were being sexually assaulted, you'd prefer they grab that nearby shard of glass and jam it into the person's throat, right? Or are you going to blame your daughter/wife for being where she was...totally their own fault for the assault? She never would've had to use that glass if she would just dress more modestly.

If an unfriendly mastiff aggressed toward your gsd...you would want your dog to defend itself, even if that means maiming it, right? Not just roll over and let the other dog do to it as it pleased. So many here are quick to say "shoot the 'latched' pit [that is often defending itself from an unwise challenger]!" so those people ought to be fine with their gsd severely injuring an aggressing dog.

Isn't it a rule of thumb: dogs make bad decisions, so we as their owners decide everything for them.
Well, that doesn't apply to two untrained dogs. The natural order of dogs and their form of communication rules now. If one decides to pick a fight and is weaker...it will regret it.
This forum used to have plenty of "Chihuahua harasses gsd...gsd turns back and kills it with one snap" stories.


Don't be so quick to jump into things. If I showed you just a video of 'some guy' being killed, it wouldn't seem right. But then you learn it's Saddam Hussein & everything he's done prior to being killed and then you go, "ohhh...he deserved that."


If you saw someone dump out milk at an orphange it looks bad. But learn prior to just that every child had plenty of milk that past week, the fridge is too full with goods (including plenty of fresh milk), and that particular milk being dumped is actually about to go bad/is the oldest milk...and then you'll say, "well, that makes sense. Now I'm glad that person dumped that little bit of milk out instead of a full thing of fresh milk or a sack of oranges." 

Should I continue? Or can we stop discussing a 'story' (the video) that is only a paragraph from a whole book? 
Can this thread go back to dumb people leaving their dogs in dangerous places (regardless of breed)?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I think the only one jumping into things is you. 

I have seen many a dog fight involving Pit Bulls. Each and every one started by the Pit Bull, NEVER the other dog. After all, they have been bred to fight and kill their own kind, unprovoked, for over a hundred years. Can't say the same about Chows.


----------



## viking

I thought we'd moved on to dumb collar and leash 'systems'.
_(ducks)_


----------



## viking

This is only anecdotal, I know, but my boy has only ever been attacked by a Pit or Pit mix. Every time this has happened the Pit has been trying to get at the spot right behind his front leg where an artery runs fairly close to the surface. Had any of those Pits managed to get around to his side and make the bite, I doubt very much he'd have survived. Luckily, he's managed to keep them in front of him and use his size (long legs) to his advantage and put them on their backs, holding them at the throat until someone gets a hold of the Pits collar. He never put even a scratch on any one of those the Pits, though.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> In the city, yards are small, and loose, supervised dogs are common. Dog parks are also very popular so dogs are accustomed to seeing other dogs and don't make a big fuss about it. It is an oddity to see a supervised, loose dog run up to another dog, they might take a few steps toward it, maybe even boof a time or two, but they don't charge it or go up to it, even if the other dog is reactive. Most dogs just don't go looking for fights.


Um, I live in a city, major city, inner city and dog fights and attacks are common. Last summer I think it was, in like a week we had 3 major dog attacks. All by Pitts I believe, one dog killed, a child mauled and I think a woman attacked. My memory is a bit fuzzy. In the neighborhood I live in alone the Golden that attacked Shadow killed a small dog and the Rotti that grabbed her has killed or injured several other dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Um, I live in a city, major city, inner city and dog fights and attacks are common. Last summer I think it was, in like a week we had 3 major dog attacks. All by Pitts I believe, one dog killed, a child mauled and I think a woman attacked. My memory is a bit fuzzy. In the neighborhood I live in alone the Golden that attacked Shadow killed a small dog and the Rotti that grabbed her has killed or injured several other dogs.


Well, I was excluding dog fighting breeds, the same rules don't apply. We have had plenty of attacks and dog / cat fatalities by Pit Bulls too.


----------



## viking

Sabis mom said:


> Um, I live in a city, major city, inner city and dog fights and attacks are common. Last summer I think it was, in like a week we had 3 major dog attacks. All by Pitts I believe, one dog killed, a child mauled and I think a woman attacked. My memory is a bit fuzzy. In the neighborhood I live in alone the Golden that attacked Shadow killed a small dog and the Rotti that grabbed her has killed or injured several other dogs.


Isn't that quote you pulled from a thread about dog parks? My memory may be failing me but I think that comment was made in a completely different context from the one at issue here, no?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

For those interested in removing a latched on Pit Bull, here is another method used at a Pit Bull training event where each and every person there forgot to bring a break stick. Note the man on the left and his carefully placed thumb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USfOToBLTXI


----------



## viking

MineAreWorkingline said:


> For those interested in removing a latched on Pit Bull, here is another method used at a Pit Bull training event where each and every person there forgot to bring a break stick. Note the man on the left and his carefully placed thumb.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USfOToBLTXI


We had a similar situation at our dog beach last summer. Evidently the latching on could not be extinguished for some time. One of the 'morning regulars' had the presence of mind to jam his thumb into the Pits anus, finally getting the Pit to release. Victim was a young GSD about 6-7 mo. old. Sorry to say I don't know the GSD's outcome, whether he made it or not.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

viking said:


> We had a similar situation at our dog beach last summer. Evidently the latching on could not be extinguished for some time. One of the 'morning regulars' had the presence of mind to jam his thumb into the Pits anus, finally getting the Pit to release. Victim was a young GSD about 6-7 mo. old. Sorry to say I don't know the GSD's outcome, whether he made it or not.


Those Pits like to target German Shepherds, especially young ones under a year.


----------



## Sabis mom

viking said:


> Isn't that quote you pulled from a thread about dog parks? My memory may be failing me but I think that comment was made in a completely different context from the one at issue here, no?


No. Few pages back, dogs in cities, off leash is common and few attacks. Not the case here, and loose dogs tick me off. Walking Shadow is enough fun with out some loose dog adding to the pleasure. 
See, I can get where Stone is coming from. Shadow is DA, reactive, scared, whatever. Walking her is a PITA and every time I make an inch of progress someone's dog jumps on her or at her or rushes her or follows us snapping at her, and I go home with a sore shoulder and a freaked out dog who then hides in her crate, sucking on her towel for a few hours. We have leash laws, we should have common sense and yet one is ignored and the other is not so common.
My mom was badly attacked as a child, by a GSD. She loves my dogs, because she trusts me. I would be furious if my mother had to walk past some strange dog tied by the door of a store, doubly so if it was visibly not secured, because it would terrify her. Aside from being irresponsible and stupid, it's rude.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

There is a major distinction between loose dogs and dogs that are off leash but supervised and under control. 

I had a dog aggressive dog, and one that had some reactivity issues. I never expected the next guy to make accommodations for my problem dogs.

I do know that I get real tired of chatting with people with my off leash dog sitting calmly and quietly by my side when somebody comes by with an on leash, but still out of control reactive dog, and their mouth attacks my well behaved dog. Screaming at me and my dog will not solve their problem but it just might make more problems for them.


----------



## viking

Sabis mom said:


> No. Few pages back, dogs in cities, off leash is common and few attacks. Not the case here, and loose dogs tick me off. Walking Shadow is enough fun with out some loose dog adding to the pleasure.
> See, I can get where Stone is coming from. Shadow is DA, reactive, scared, whatever. Walking her is a PITA and every time I make an inch of progress someone's dog jumps on her or at her or rushes her or follows us snapping at her, and I go home with a sore shoulder and a freaked out dog who then hides in her crate, sucking on her towel for a few hours. We have leash laws, we should have common sense and yet one is ignored and the other is not so common.
> My mom was badly attacked as a child, by a GSD. She loves my dogs, because she trusts me. I would be furious if my mother had to walk past some strange dog tied by the door of a store, doubly so if it was visibly not secured, because it would terrify her. Aside from being irresponsible and stupid, it's rude.


Well, I can definitely relate to what a PITA it is to walk a reactive dog. Sore shoulder - check! Me and my boy were the pariahs of my neighborhood for quite some time after I brought him home. I remember feeling so frustrated that other people and their dogs were making it worse by being wherever, doing whatever they were doing but I also knew, in truth, we were our own problem - not others. 

I sought out the best trainers I could find and made the drive severy Saturday to 'school' for us. I did the homework. Eventually, I also began going to the dog beach (where we none too popular for awhile!). But these things together _worked_. 

Really, I truly believe its do-able because we actually did it. I remember, it was only the first couple weeks after I'd brought Hans home thinking "we'll never be able to do x, y, z but I don't care, I love him so." But I was wrong. We can do x, y, z and a,b,c too. 

I totally agree that the rude and inconsiderate acts of others are rude and inconsiderate. Okay, but then what? For me the work around was make the rude and inconsiderate acts irrelevant to our endeavors. It is do-able.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is a major distinction between loose dogs and dogs that are off leash but supervised and under control.
> 
> I had a dog aggressive dog, and one that had some reactivity issues. I never expected the next guy to make accommodations for my problem dogs.
> 
> I do know that I get real tired of chatting with people with my off leash dog sitting calmly and quietly by my side when somebody comes by with an on leash, but still out of control reactive dog, and their mouth attacks my well behaved dog. Screaming at me and my dog will not solve their problem but it just might make more problems for them.


I expect no one to 'accommodate' my dog. 

My dog is leashed, and muzzled. We have leash laws. I don't go to off leash areas. With or without my 'out of control' dog I have a right to walk down the sidewalk un-harassed by loose dogs. I have a reasonable expectation that I can do so with out having some dog charging across it's lawn and onto the sidewalk at me. I find it annoying that I have to deal with dogs tethered to their front steps 'so they can say hi to people walking by'. If your off leash dog is in control then it isn't near me and I don't care. If it runs up to me it isn't in control.


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## viking

Sabis mom-
you wrote:
I have a reasonable expectation that I can do so with out having some dog charging across it's lawn and onto the sidewalk at me. I find it annoying that I have to deal with dogs tethered to their front steps 'so they can say hi to people walking by'. If your off leash dog is in control then it isn't near me and I don't care. If it runs up to me it isn't in control.

No one is advocating that position. I don't get it?


----------



## Sabis mom

viking said:


> Well, I can definitely relate to what a PITA it is to walk a reactive dog. Sore shoulder - check! Me and my boy were the pariahs of my neighborhood for quite some time after I brought him home. I remember feeling so frustrated that other people and their dogs were making it worse by being wherever, doing whatever they were doing but I also knew, in truth, we were our own problem - not others.
> 
> I sought out the best trainers I could find and made the drive severy Saturday to 'school' for us. I did the homework. Eventually, I also began going to the dog beach (where we none too popular for awhile!). But these things together _worked_.
> 
> Really, I truly believe its do-able because we actually did it. I remember, it was only the first couple weeks after I'd brought Hans home thinking "we'll never be able to do x, y, z but I don't care, I love him so." But I was wrong. We can do x, y, z and a,b,c too.
> 
> I totally agree that the rude and inconsiderate acts of others are rude and inconsiderate. Okay, but then what? For me the work around was make the rude and inconsiderate acts irrelevant to our endeavors. It is do-able.


Shadow has been attacked, and injured, several times by loose dogs. I don't think she is the problem in that scenario.

And I am sincerely happy that your boy did well. What worked for you does not work for us, largely because we keep getting assaulted by loose dogs. 

And I so disagree with dismissing rude behavior. It is not acceptable and should not be let slide.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I was just clarifying in a general sense that an off leash dog does not necessarily equate to an out of control dog as so many would have others believe.

I explained what I did with my problem dogs.

Nobody in particular was targeted.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I was just clarifying in a general sense that an off leash dog does not necessarily equate to an out of control dog as so many would have others believe.
> 
> I explained what I did with my problem dogs.
> 
> Nobody in particular was targeted.


I did not think anyone was:smile2:
And Sabs was seldom on leash when we were out and about, or I guess I wasn't on leash to be more accurate. But I always made sure to tether her well away from the entrance if I needed to go in anywhere.

Even with her, getting charged or harassed was pretty common. Difference was that Sabs was adept at dealing with obnoxious dogs. They were generally much better behaved on subsequent passes.


----------



## viking

Sabis mom,

I'm curious about this one thing you said:
"And I so disagree with dismissing rude behavior. It is not acceptable and should not be let slide."

What are you imagining to do?

p.s. I don't agree with "dismissing" rude behavior either. It should come as no surprise, I usually let the offender know.


----------



## viking

Sabis mom said:


> I did not think anyone was:smile2:
> And Sabs was seldom on leash when we were out and about, or I guess I wasn't on leash to be more accurate. But I always made sure to tether her well away from the entrance if I needed to go in anywhere.
> 
> Even with her, getting charged or harassed was pretty common. Difference was that Sabs was adept at dealing with obnoxious dogs. They were generally much better behaved on subsequent passes.


Wait, what? I thought you were just saying how you can't abide people who have their dogs off leash because your (other?) dog Midnight is DA?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I am confused too. How can one insist others leash their dogs yet let one's own dog loose?


----------



## Baillif

I will say this much. If you are working a leash reactive dog, and you are trying to get rid of it and it takes more than 3 days to eliminate the behavior nearly to 100% you are doing something really wrong and should find professional help. It isn't a problem that lasts months if you're doing everything right. It should be done after like 3 20 minute sessions.


----------



## GreenCo

SuperG said:


> Not saying that walking a dog is really any physical exercise...especially with larger breeds, But, I believe there is benefit in going places with your dog and trekking about as it exposes a dog to a multitude of sensory and other experiences which are good for a dog. The more elements one exposes their dog to... can't really do any harm and probably is a good thing for its confidence and indulges some of its innate tendencies. There's a whole lot more to the world than a dog's backyard and home. Watching a dog leave its scent for other dogs convinced me there is some value to this process.
> 
> SuperG


This is very well said.

I have never looked at walking a GSD or large breeds as a form of physical exercise. I walk them for the mental stimulation. The sights, the smells, the tracking, meeting new people.


----------



## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> I will say this much. If you are working a leash reactive dog, and you are trying to get rid of it and it takes more than 3 days to eliminate the behavior nearly to 100% you are doing something really wrong and should find professional help. It isn't a problem that lasts months if you're doing everything right. It should be done after like 3 20 minute sessions.


My dog is dog reactive not leash reactive. Or she is leash reactive, yard reactive, house reactive and vet office reactive if other dogs are present. I have no idea if her reactivity can be eliminated in 3 days or not because she's only been out one day since she has really bloomed with the DA. As I said, I may be able to dampen her dog reactivity but I will never be able to trust her off leash.

I'm sure that if a professional handler owned her she could become as well mannered off leash as any other dog could be - but she's not and there is just no money for training and no money for vet bills should I try to work on her dog reactivity and she gets in a fight because of it.

If people would just obey the leash law. I can control my dog but I cannot control a loose dog too.


----------



## Stonevintage

Slamdunc said:


> SV,
> You may need the prong, a flat collar may not give you the leverage that you need. I am willing to be that I could walk and control your dog o a flat collar. You have a beautiful dog in your avatar. I don't see "Cujo" in that picture, but, I think perhaps that you do./QUOTE]
> 
> You are correct, I need the prong. My upper body strength I'm sure is not what yours is. I am a senior and it's not likely to improve much as more time goes by.
> 
> I understand that you have not had a prong release. I have. Both HS. I did have trouble with finger strength and clipping the first prong collar on and off so I purchased the quick release one. That one just let go and hung off her back up collar last week. I walk her on a very busy street and this is not good. I'm sorry you don't like my connector. The carabiner that I tried restricted proper placement and movement of the HS. The one I use does not.
> 
> That photo of Summer is her at 9 mos of age. The one on the banner (right above the search box) is her at 14 weeks old- will you make assumptions based on that photo too? :grin2: She'll be 2 in June and is 80lbs and 27" ATW. I don't see her as Cujo - but she is DA and I need the prong especially if a loose dog is approaching us. It's for control - nothing else.


----------



## Sabis mom

Baillif said:


> I will say this much. If you are working a leash reactive dog, and you are trying to get rid of it and it takes more than 3 days to eliminate the behavior nearly to 100% you are doing something really wrong and should find professional help. It isn't a problem that lasts months if you're doing everything right. It should be done after like 3 20 minute sessions.


Shadow has multiple issues, as well as some brain damage. She probably isn't ever going to be normal. Although she was doing better until the last attack. Then I gave up.

MAWL, at no point did I say no dog can be off leash. Ever. I said specifically that if your dog was in control, I had no issue with it. 
In control does not me approaching me, charging me, romping in the street and it never means left unattended and unsecured outside a store.

Even the best behaved dog is going to disobey at some point, and it will be at the worst possible moment.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow has multiple issues, as well as some brain damage. She probably isn't ever going to be normal. Although she was doing better until the last attack. Then I gave up.
> 
> MAWL, at no point did I say no dog can be off leash. Ever. I said specifically that if your dog was in control, I had no issue with it.
> In control does not me approaching me, charging me, romping in the street and it never means left unattended and unsecured outside a store.
> 
> Even the best behaved dog is going to disobey at some point, and it will be at the worst possible moment.


Uh, that was Viking that questioned you specifically.

I was questioning in general as there were several comments made by others regarding other people always leashing their dogs while they also commented on letting their own dogs off leash.


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## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> If people would just obey the leash law. I can control my dog but I cannot control a loose dog too.


Same page Stone. Same frickin page.


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## Muskeg

Stone- I can attest to the effectiveness of proper training with a prong for DA or reactivity.

It really works. Find someone who can help you, search outside your area if you must. Done right, the dog will be more or less fixed in a few days of short sessions. 

Since you are a senior with finger-mobility issues, I'd recommend considering layering an e-collar over the prong. Not forever- just train the dog and it's done. You can transition over and not have to fuss with the Mr. T outfit anymore.

I'm not sure how you feel about e-collars, but the way I train with it is similar to the prong. I don't do real low level. That's just what works for me, as I don't train much else with the e-collar aside from recall, heel, and down-stay. Those are my three absolute 100% guaranteed commands that I put on every dog. 

It's like magic once you figure this stuff out. I can't help with the pitbull issue, I'm sorry you are dealing with this, but if your dog isn't giving other dogs the hairy eyeball, it will help a lot. 

For the pits, I'd recommend bear spray. Yes, you may get yourself or your dog peppered a bit as well, but you can stop a dog from a good distance without endangering anyone's life. They make a foam spray too that scatters less. If it stops grizzlies (and it has proven to work for bears) it will stop a pitbull. Bear spray, not just a can of mace. Make sure it is legal. I'm guessing it is in Idaho. Just not for use against humans.


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## dogma13

Hornet spray works too,and is perfectly legal.Stone you will soon need a tool belt to carry all of your attack prevention items


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## viking

Baillif said:


> I will say this much. If you are working a leash reactive dog, and you are trying to get rid of it and it takes more than 3 days to eliminate the behavior nearly to 100% you are doing something really wrong and should find professional help. It isn't a problem that lasts months if you're doing everything right. It should be done after like 3 20 minute sessions.


I noticed some others answered to this and I don't know if it was a comment in response to one of mine but as they say, 'if the shoe fits . . . ' 

You're exactly right and it was me that was causing the persistent problem. When we were at class, my boy responded very quickly to the correction and behaved well. At home, however I became more inhibited about giving him the necessary strong correction because some uninitiated busy-body did yell at the top of her lungs "Geez lady, take it easy on that poor dog!" and I mean everyone on the street turned around and looked and I became very self-conscious about it. That was the first time I'd made the correction at home as I'd learned and done in class.

So, Hans was consistently well behaved and non-reactive at school but not at home because of my failure to be consistent with the proper (strong) correction. So, entirely my fault, no question.

Awhile back someone had a thread about their dog being dog reactive while walking in their neighborhood and I commented with the advice to be sure and stay focused on yourself and your dog,_that you are training_, forget about other people and what they're doing or thinking, because I had that very same problem.


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## Stonevintage

Yea, it's just all ridiculous. Apparently I am in the wrong with my dog training, the equipment I use and my wish that the leash law were better enforced. I don't think I'll be walking her anymore. That will eliminate the concerns I have and I don't want people to make fun of her because she has two collars on. People can be very cruel and she doesn't deserve that.


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## Baillif

You move the correction to an e collar nick at a level where it will punish the dog for attempting to go there snap him out of it but not create a scene. Prong collar corrections if you are late often have to be at a high enough level that its embarrassing. The ecollar is much more subtle and often you can correct dogs if you catch them at the precursors at levels where the dog will maybe jerk his head a little bit in response to the stim but stay quiet and even if a yelp happened nobody really has issue with it because there isn't visible violence going on.

If I pronged the crap out of every dog I had to proof in public for leash reactivity I'd have been in trouble on youtube by now. You have to be a little more smooth and subtle about it. Also the earlier you catch them the less intense the correction has to be. You get them for thinking about it you don't wait till they throw a growl or bark.


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## viking

Baillif said:


> You move the correction to an e collar nick at a level where it will punish the dog for attempting to go there snap him out of it but not create a scene. Prong collar corrections if you are late often have to be at a high enough level that its embarrassing. The ecollar is much more subtle and often you can correct dogs if you catch them at the precursors at levels where the dog will maybe jerk his head a little bit in response to the stim but stay quiet and even if a yelp happened nobody really has issue with it because there isn't visible violence going on.
> 
> If I pronged the crap out of every dog I had to proof in public for leash reactivity I'd have been in trouble on youtube by now. You have to be a little more smooth and subtle about it. Also the earlier you catch them the less intense the correction has to be. You get them for thinking about it you don't wait till they throw a growl or bark.


Lol! Now you tell me! Just kidding, I hadn't even found the forum back in those days.


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## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, it's just all ridiculous. Apparently I am in the wrong with my dog training, the equipment I use and my wish that the leash law were better enforced. I don't think I'll be walking her anymore. That will eliminate the concerns I have and I don't want people to make fun of her because she has two collars on. People can be very cruel and she doesn't deserve that.


We will walk together. Shadow wears her harness a backup collar and her muzzle. I get lots of comments and snickers. I won't make fun, I won't tell you you're wrong. PM me anytime, you know that.


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## SuperG

Stonevintage said:


> That will eliminate the concerns I have and I don't want people to make fun of her because she has two collars on.


When I have a prong on my dog when we are out and about training somewhere different....I always have a short jumper going to her flat collar.....just in case... plus it makes it easier to train on the flat when I disconnect the jumper. Never heard a peep out of anyone for having two collars on her.

SuperG


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## car2ner

mine have the buckled on prong and a martingale. Luckily the loop in the martingale gives it enough slack to work as a secondary back up collar. People who know about prongs will understand. Those that don't can be educated. Two collars is not that unusual.


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## selzer

I don't use prongs, but I use two collars. One is for tags and goes on before I leave my property. It hangs loosely, low on the neck. The other goes to a martingale, which is supposed to be up on the neck like the prong. They don't interfere with each other.

Because I drop things, all my dogs are trained to come back to me when they feel the leash fall onto the ground. It is enough to keep them safe. If it isn't there is not much I can do about it, because If I would drop the leash I would drop leashes. If the leash was connected to two collars, it would still be dragging on the ground. So it works for me. 

I watched the other video, and the guy was like, always control the dog from here, don't go for the back legs, with the pit, may be ok, but with a shepherd. Ok, I don't go for back legs, but I don't wear collars on my dogs. So I really can't grab what is not there. I will grab the tail though. Don't care. If one dog wants to fight and the other doesn't, you can drag the fighting dog off and out of trouble with the tail. 

I don't think they secure the victim first because they do not care if it is bitten, but do care if the pit is bitten. Sorry, but, if the one is not secure, it will swing around and engage again. It is far better to have that dog immobile, and then drag the other away -- if you have more than one person. I generally have just me, when I have a problem so that doesn't always work. But I will yell at the victim and tell it harshly to STAY if I get them apart, because I have a better chance of getting the other dog safely away if one of them is willing to listen to a command. 

Sometimes, you don't think you just act. And naturally, you just do the right thing. It is always best to be prepared with a plan, and not trust that your instincts will kick in. But I think that maybe when we walk around expecting an attack, looking at each dog we see with apprehension and expectation, that maybe the worst happens because of the charged atmosphere we are creating. 

And then I leave a 9.5 year old bitch out while a 6 month old bitch is running about, and bam, the 9.5 year old decides the little one doesn't need to exist, and I am right there no collars, pulling her off lickety split, and no harm done, save my bp through the roof. I put the little one, Quinn, in with her dam, and all good. Put her back in with Babs, no problem. But yes, the best time to act with response to dog on dog, or bitch on bitch, is BEFORE it starts, when the light bulb starts to flicker on, and you can give the dog a "KNOCK IT OFF!" or a pop with your prong if you like, to remind them that you are there and calling the shots.


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## MineAreWorkingline

The victim will not swing around and engage again if it was not in the fight to begin with. Many dogs are attacked and will only defend itself until the threat no longer exists, many won't even defend but will immediately go belly up. Fights are not always two sided and every one I have seen where a Pit Bull was involved falls into the one sided category. Do notice in the Chow video that the Chow left once released and it was the Pit Bull that went to re engage.


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## Steve Strom

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, it's just all ridiculous. Apparently I am in the wrong with my dog training, the equipment I use and my wish that the leash law were better enforced. I don't think I'll be walking her anymore. That will eliminate the concerns I have and I don't want people to make fun of her because she has two collars on. People can be very cruel and she doesn't deserve that.


You know Stone, you may be really surprised how far your dog being obedient and attentive to you can go towards making her less attractive to most loose dogs. I think you'd be better off concentrating on being consistent with your training and not worrying about how many different deterrents you need to carry with you. Loose dogs are a problem, I know. I doubt she'll care about the people's ridicule either if she understands she has to listen to you.


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## Mary Beth

Steve Strom said:


> You know Stone, you may be really surprised how far your dog being obedient and attentive to you can go towards making her less attractive to most loose dogs. I think you'd be better off concentrating on being consistent with your training and not worrying about how many different deterrents you need to carry with you. Loose dogs are a problem, I know. I doubt she'll care about the people's ridicule either if she understands she has to listen to you.


I found this to be true. I've read that a dog's distance vision is not so good. So when a loose dog first sees my dog, he dashes over, but as he gets closer and sees that my dog is walking on heel and looking at me, he then backs away. It's no fun for the loose dog. 

To me, and I do sympathize with the OP, but the issue here is the OP's fear of attack that is keeping her from walking her dog. That to me, is not fair to the dog. As I suggested in her other thread, I think she should hire a dog walker.


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, it's just all ridiculous. Apparently I am in the wrong with my dog training, the equipment I use and my wish that the leash law were better enforced. I don't think I'll be walking her anymore. That will eliminate the concerns I have and I don't want people to make fun of her because she has two collars on. People can be very cruel and she doesn't deserve that.


I certainly hope that you do not think that I was making fun of you? That was not my intention. I may be blunt when looking at your dog walking rig, only because I think it is too much and not going to do the job that you want. 

Bailif made a very good post on using an E collar and a prong. I have owned some very seriously dog aggressive dogs. I walked them every day. I had to learn to read the body language, one dog and as soon as his right shoulder blade flexed, he was about to explode into a rage. That was when he was thinking about it and the time to correct and stop it. That was his "tell." When I saw that I knew what was coming and I stopped it before it started. 

Stonevintage, here's the thing; I think that you have a very nice dog and I think you really love your dog. Walking your dog should be a relaxing and enjoyable event. I've been out with DA dogs and know what a PITA it is. The first thing I would do would be to worry about your dog and not all the loose ones, or the ones tied to a water spigot. You need to worry about yourself and your dog's behavior. 

You are wrong with your dog training and your equipment. Sorry, if that is too blunt, it is a fact. I'm not here to sugar coat anything, that takes way too much time and effort and doesn't get the point across. 

If I were in your shoes, I would make my dog heel past other dogs and pay them no mind. I would correct sharply and quickly with the leash and a stern verbal "NO." I would keep walking and correct as needed. IF the first correction was not effective, and I think your corrections are too weak, I would correct again 4 - 5 times harder than the first one. This is 4 -5 times harder on YOUR scale of corrections, not mine. Learning how to properly correct a dog is a skill and takes technique and timing. Most people have issues because they do not know how to give a leash correction or how much pressure should be used. 

I will say, that if this behavior has been going on for a while the dog has not gotten a really properly timed and properly delivered correction. I agree with your earlier post that I can more than likely give a physically harder correction than you. That is a fair statement, but I deal with much physically harder, stronger and more resilient dogs than you have. 

Here is another option for you consider for the DA, a nylon slip collar on a tab. Your dog can wear the prong for it's walks, you keep the second leash in your pocket, just in case. :wink2: And you place a nylon slip collar on your dog above the prong attached to a traffic leash or tab. If your dog starts to bark at another dog, simply correct with the prong and a verbal "KNOCK IT OFF, NO or PFUI." Then garb the tab and pull straight up, very calmly, did I say CALMLY, until the dogs front feet are of the ground slightly. Hold for 3 seconds and release. Tell the dog to sit and if the dog starts again, very calmly raise up on the nylon choke and hold for 3-4 seconds. The key is to remain calm and assertive. Lift up enough for your dog to get the message and then place it down before it begins to spin like an alligator in a death roll. You want to release the tension as soon as the dog is quiet, don't go too long. This is about timing. If the dog breaks the sit, correct with the prong for disobeying the sit command. 

The bottom line is all of this is your anxiety of taking your dog out and running into another dog. This is directly translated to your dog and she is feeding off your nervousness and worry. You see another dog, and think "OH NO, (or oh s#!t) here comes a dog." You immediately tighten up on the leash and pull your dog in tight and hope for the best. The second that you spotted the dog, you instantly told your dog that there is something to be worried about and your dog reacted. Now your dog is feeding off your body language and anxiety. Let me know if I am wrong here. 

Your dog will not relax and behave until you do. You need to take a deep breath before your walk and take charge. You can do it, and life will be so much better. I know, I've been there with a dog where every walk was an adventure.


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## Slamdunc

Ahhh, one other thing that is often left out and I did it myself. When your dog is correct and you pass the other dogs you must praise the daylights out of your dog. If you tell your dog to sit and feed it hot dogs when other dogs go by, praise the daylights out of your dog for that good sit. 

We often talk about corrections, but praise is even more important and needs to given at a much higher level then the corrections when the dog performs properly.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I wonder if a lot of the problem is that other people are misreading another dog's intentions. Maybe a little understanding of a dog's body language might help. I have a hard time comprehending all these dogs are out there running loose and looking to get into a fight. One would think that would make headline news. I just don't find most dogs that aggressive to attack unprovoked. That flies in the face of the self preservation of the species.


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## Steve Strom

Slamdunc said:


> Ahhh, one other thing that is often left out and I did it myself. When your dog is correct and you pass the other dogs you must praise the daylights out of your dog. If you tell your dog to sit and feed it hot dogs when other dogs go by, praise the daylights out of your dog for that good sit.
> 
> We often talk about corrections, but praise is even more important and needs to given at a much higher level then the corrections when the dog performs properly.


Yeah, thats another thing that will surprise you Stone. How important well timed praise can be. It can be the other side of making things clear to them.


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## SuperG

Slamdunc said:


> Here is another option for you consider for the DA, a nylon slip collar on a tab. And you place a nylon slip collar on your dog above the prong attached to a traffic leash or tab. If your dog starts to bark at another dog, simply correct with the prong and a verbal "KNOCK IT OFF, NO or PFUI." Then garb the tab and pull straight up, very calmly, did I say CALMLY, until the dogs front feet are of the ground slightly. Hold for 3 seconds and release. Tell the dog to sit and if the dog starts again, very calmly raise up on the nylon choke and hold for 3-4 seconds. The key is to remain calm and assertive. Lift up enough for your dog to get the message and then place it down before it begins to spin like an alligator in a death roll. You want to release the tension as soon as the dog is quiet, don't go too long. This is about timing. If the dog breaks the sit, correct with the prong for disobeying the sit command.


This is exactly the process I have been taught by a couple of instructors that deal with DA dogs....wish I would have made it my first stop on the journey.....it blew me away how quickly things changed.....but I suppose a dog likes their air and figures it out. I also have to add that the process is just as quick as you stated....but a few seconds...and the dog gets its crap together.

SuperG


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## Chip18

car2ner said:


> mine have the buckled on prong and a martingale. Luckily the loop in the martingale gives it enough slack to work as a secondary back up collar. People who know about prongs will understand. Those that don't can be educated. Two collars is not that unusual.


Ugh so much going on here?? Hard to decide where to start?? 

As I am a member of the "Pits" and their derivatives club "American Band Dawgs" and "APBT/Boxer" mixes I seem to be yet again ... "that guy" the only dog I have ever had attacked another dog with intend to do harm was my OS WL GSD! 

In ten years with my "Pit" deratives they never laid a tooth on another dog, well Gunther (American Band Dawg) did get away from my wife once and scared the heck out of everybody in the vets office when he bum rushed a lab and went "nip nip on his neck" but no harm done. Full disclosure yo.

But my GSD was the one intend on doing harm. 5 times he went after Gunther and Gunther "never" initiated a single retaliatory strike. Gunther was quite content to let me figure this one out??

It's interesting that all this heat is being generated by what appears to be a well trained "Pit" derivative waiting calmly outside a store for his owner?? If I were walking my dog and came upon him?? Yeah, I'd cross the street, it's what I do, no big deal. 

But the reason for "my" quote, you don't really need to use a Prong to understand the how and why of two collars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0c8rztq1vg

Just seems that SV kinda complicated up the point of a safety back up with a lot of stuff?? The whole point of the "Prong" may have gotten lost in the process?? Still a SLL kinda guy myself works for me but I like to know "stuff" you never know when you'll run across that dog hmm ... happened once already!


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## Stonevintage

Last Summer, I taught her how to walk without pulling with the prong. I taught her to sit or lay down (and not either or) at any point in time on a walk. When we are at the Cafe, she is trained to lay down beside me out of the way. She also no longer jumps on people when meeting them, nor does she try to approach them unless I tell her it's ok to go say hi. 

I taught these things with the prong. She went 5 mos without a walk. Her first time out last week she remembered all and obeyed immediately. Initially I rewarded her with treats, then working with the prong, rewarded her with tons of praise. She still gets praise and good girl everytime she performs a command. 

That first walk last week with all the dogs parading by she did bark but between the first and last dog her response had lessened. I call that progress. 

If I'm doing this all wrong - then why did it work? I appreciate the intro to prong 101 but as I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I don't expect to need a prong for any commands - only for control in case a stray dog encounter. How can I be the problem over reacting or telegraphing stress down the line when I have never yet passed by another dog when she's been with me?

All I said was I have a DA dog. I mentioned here reacting at the cafe and that those dogs were 15 feet away. I was seated and so was Summer.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Ugh so much going on here?? Hard to decide where to start??
> 
> As I am a member of the "Pits" and their derivatives club "American Band Dawgs" and "APBT/Boxer" mixes I seem to be yet again ... "that guy" the only dog I have ever had attacked another dog with intend to do harm was my OS WL GSD!
> 
> In ten years with my "Pit" deratives they never laid a tooth on another dog, well Gunther (American Band Dawg) did get away from my wife once and scared the heck out of everybody in the vets office when he bum rushed a lab and went "nip nip on his neck" but no harm done. Full disclosure yo.
> 
> But my GSD was the one intend on doing harm. 5 times he went after Gunther and Gunther "never" initiated a single retaliatory strike. Gunther was quite content to let me figure this one out??
> 
> It's interesting that all this heat is being generated by what appears to be a well trained "Pit" derivative waiting calmly outside a store for his owner?? If I were walking my dog and came upon him?? Yeah, I'd cross the street, it's what I do, no big deal.
> 
> But the reason for "my" quote, you don't really need to use a Prong to understand the how and why of two collars.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0c8rztq1vg
> 
> Just seems that SV kinda complicated up the point of a safety back up with a lot of stuff?? The whole point of the "Prong" may have gotten lost in the process?? Still a SLL kinda guy myself works for me but I like to know "stuff" you never know when you'll run across that dog hmm ... happened once already!


Just for the record, your GSD attacked how many dogs belonging to other people in public?

Also, how many Pit types belonging to other people have come after your GSD while walking your neighborhood?

Oh, and your Pit type never attacked somebody else's dog?

Household dog scuffles / fights aren't the issue being discussed but other people's dogs attacking yours in public places. 

And if you read the thread it was clarified that the picture of the "relaxed" Pit Bull was the state of the dog much later on a hot day after its owner had struggled at length with it.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just for the record, your GSD attacked how many dogs belonging to other people in public?
> 
> Also, how many Pit types belonging to other people have come after your GSD while walking your neighborhood?
> 
> Oh, and your Pit type never attacked somebody else's dog?
> 
> Household dog scuffles / fights aren't the issue being discussed but other people's dogs attacking yours in public places.
> 
> And if you read the thread it was clarified that the picture of the "relaxed" Pit Bull was the state of the dog much later on a hot day after its owner had struggled at length with it.


Hmmm going off point here??

But for the record yep very first dog that came after my first "APBT/Boxer" puppy was the oft mentioned 90 lb "APBT!" I heard him burst threw the front door and people screaming! Turned around and saw him making a Bee line for my puppy! 

I don't think so, spun my puppy behind me and faced the dog down! That stopped him long enough for the owner to scoop him up, the dog only saw my puppy not me, no big deal.

And yep Rocky and I have dealt with nine attempts to date?? One "Pit Derivative" that dashed by it's clueless owner and came at Rocky!! This time Rocky failed to stay behind me as instructed! 

But instead came forward stood next to me and "Smiled" in the charging dogs face! The charging snarling lunging beast stopped, sat down and smiled back???" Rocky stopped that one with out conflict, Daddy would have made that situation worst!

And t,he last "Pit" encounter ... split decision?? I saw this one at night the dog looked lost?? So I called him and he was approaching in a friendly manner. Then the dog saw "Rocky" approaching (off leash) from out of the night from behind me. The dog then changed and charged and Rocky tried to charge back but I turned my back on the "Pit" to body block (Daddy under threat, so he was not listening!)

That Pit must have thought we were both crazy and just split into the night??? Undecided on that one still and there have been other smaller dogs. 

And no save for the one vet office encounter my "Pit" deratives have never laid teeth on another dog. Gunther and Struddell (Boxer) did just fine, when a little dog slipped past me and got in there face while they were on "The Lawn" the little cur was barking in there face and Gunther looked to me to see how to handle "this situation??" I got the POC out of there face, they looked to me to see how to handle this ... that's what well trained "Dogs" do (in my experience.) 

And of course ... Rocky and I our breakthrough moment:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html


And nope my GSD has never laid teeth on another dog either. Yeah the Pack Fight thing?? That was on me ... learning curve. BUt I don't discriminate based on "Breed" no dog I don't know get's to mine without going through me first! It's just how we roll, combination of luck and skill, I got no problem with that.  


It's taken a while but I have read the whole thread. 

Lot's here ... hard to decide if it's a training, OP and there dog's issues or a general let's bash the low hanging "breed" owned by lots of "clueless and incompetent tools" because they are all cute and stuff and equally capable of causing great carnage when in the hands of the "irresponsible."

And the very first "Pit Derivative" that was apparently pulling it's owner and yet seems to be calm and relaxed in the photo?? Yeah they are kinda versatile ... Gunther was like that! Fine "off leash" not worth a crap on leash! That's why I ditched the "prong Collar myself with all subsequent dogs and went back to basics ... as seen in the first clip here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Then at rescue I used my first SLL ... worked out fine ... hey ...back on point??


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm going off point here??
> 
> But for the record yep very first dog that came after my first "APBT/Boxer" puppy was the oft mentioned 90 lb "APBT!" I heard him burst threw the front door and people screaming! Turned around and saw him making a Bee line for my puppy!
> 
> I don't think so, spun my puppy behind me and faced the dog down! That stopped him long enough for the owner to scoop him up, the dog only saw my puppy not me, no big deal.
> 
> And yep Rocky and I have dealt with nine attempts to date?? One "Pit Derivative" that dashed by it's clueless owner and came at Rocky!! This time Rocky failed to stay behind me as instructed!
> 
> But instead came forward stood next to me and "Smiled" in the charging dogs face! The charging snarling lunging beast stopped, sat down and smiled back???" Rocky stopped that one with out conflict, Daddy would have made that situation worst!
> 
> And t,he last "Pit" encounter ... split decision?? I saw this one at night the dog looked lost?? So I called him and he was approaching in a friendly manner. Then the dog saw "Rocky" approaching (off leash) from out of the night from behind me. The dog then changed and charged and Rocky tried to charge back but I turned my back on the "Pit" to body block (Daddy under threat, so he was not listening!)
> 
> That Pit must have thought we were both crazy and just split into the night??? Undecided on that one still and there have been other smaller dogs.
> 
> And no save for the one vet office encounter my "Pit" deratives have never laid teeth on another dog. Gunther and Struddell (Boxer) did just fine, when a little dog slipped past me and got in there face while they were on "The Lawn" the little cur was barking in there face and Gunther looked to me to see how to handle "this situation??" I got the POC out of there face, they looked to me to see how to handle this ... that's what well trained "Dogs" do (in my experience.)
> 
> And of course ... Rocky and I our breakthrough moment:
> 
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html
> 
> 
> And nope my GSD has never laid teeth on another dog either. Yeah the Pack Fight thing?? That was on me ... learning curve. BUt I don't discriminate based on "Breed" no dog I don't know get's to mine without going through me first! It's just how we roll, combination of luck and skill, I got no problem with that.
> 
> 
> It's taken a while but I have read the whole thread.
> 
> Lot's here ... hard to decide if it's a training, OP and there dog's issues or a general let's bash the low hanging "breed" owned by lots of "clueless and incompetent tools" because they are all cute and stuff and equally capable of causing great carnage when in the hands of the "irresponsible."
> 
> And the very first "Pit Derivative" that was apparently pulling it's owner and yet seems to be calm and relaxed in the photo?? Yeah they are kinda versatile ... Gunther was like that! Fine "off leash" not worth a crap on leash! That's why I ditched the "prong Collar myself with all subsequent dogs and went back to basics ... as seen in the first clip here:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html
> 
> Then at rescue I used my first SLL ... worked out fine ... hey ...back on point??


Yes, I think you are back on point! :grin2:


----------



## Steve Strom

Stonevintage said:


> Last Summer, I taught her how to walk without pulling with the prong. I taught her to sit or lay down (and not either or) at any point in time on a walk. When we are at the Cafe, she is trained to lay down beside me out of the way. She also no longer jumps on people when meeting them, nor does she try to approach them unless I tell her it's ok to go say hi.
> 
> I taught these things with the prong. She went 5 mos without a walk. Her first time out last week she remembered all and obeyed immediately. Initially I rewarded her with treats, then working with the prong, rewarded her with tons of praise. She still gets praise and good girl everytime she performs a command.
> 
> That first walk last week with all the dogs parading by she did bark but between the first and last dog her response had lessened. I call that progress.
> 
> If I'm doing this all wrong - then why did it work? I appreciate the intro to prong 101 but as I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I don't expect to need a prong for any commands - only for control in case a stray dog encounter. How can I be the problem over reacting or telegraphing stress down the line when I have never yet passed by another dog when she's been with me?
> 
> All I said was I have a DA dog. I mentioned here reacting at the cafe and that those dogs were 15 feet away. I was seated and so was Summer.


I must have completely misread everything you've posted. I had a completely different impression over the last few months, just ignore anything I've replied Stone. Its been irrelevant. Sorry bout that.


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## Slamdunc

Steve Strom said:


> I must have completely misread everything you've posted. I had a completely different impression over the last few months, just ignore anything I've replied Stone. Its been irrelevant. Sorry bout that.


Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I am at a loss and must have completely misunderstood. I'm sure you have it all under control, sorry for adding my 2 cents when it obviously wasn't necessary.


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## LittleBear

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I am at a loss and must have completely misunderstood. I'm sure you have it all under control, sorry for adding my 2 cents when it obviously wasn't necessary.


Still useful information nonetheless, IMHO


----------



## Stonevintage

I was kind of wondering what was going on. Wondering why the recommendations to go back to treat training for basic commands and the intro to prongs.

Then I knew something was off when I'm being told that I'm telegraphing my nervousness to Summer when walking past other dogs- I haven't even had that experience yet.

All good though. I agree there's a lot of good information in there and if I ever do pass other dogs - I will have treats ready to go as that will be new training for her.:smile2:


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## Chip18

Aww, guys don't be like that. Lots of useful info being given here! Dare I say "Pet People" 101 always (sometimes) defend what your doing. Happens all the time ... not really the best approach for "learning" but it happens. You guys pointed out a few things that us "Pet" folks could not see?? 

No one has said "hey my way or the highway!" The process of getting it right, is as much about what is going wrong as it is about what is being done right. Sometimes we already have the answers, we just don't see them because "we are in the moment" as it were. To solve "issues" we have to, as I am want to say *"Out think your dog." *

A dog that is a challenge is a dog that puts you to the test, for me that was my "Rocky" with his "Pack" issues. (I lost that one due to circumstances beyond my control) and his people issues. For me it turned out ... to solve them I did not need to do anything different, I just needed to better understand some of the things I had already been doing. I just never gave them any thought. "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" when I read it the only change required was saying "NO" instead of "Yes" if someone asked to pet my dog. I'd been doing the "Who Pets thing for years just never "thought about it" reading it made me see it. 

Slamdunc, I got more on the two leash thing. As I have seen that being done before.


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## Stonevintage

Here is an example of the wider spread you can get between collars. The carabiner IMO kept the prong and flat too close together (she's got a long neck). With the prong in proper position - the back up collar was sitting high and always dragging down the prong. I didn't realize that Leerberg has a split leash made just for accommodating the prong & backup collars. 

View attachment 361417


View attachment 361425


View attachment 361433


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## Chai

This is what I use:

Stabilisation Collar AKA Dominant Dog Collars

I attach the leash to both the prong and stabilisation collar. The stabilisation collar being used solely for backup and so is fitted a bit larger than it would be for use by itself on an aggressive dog. The larger fit for us means that it doesn't interfere with prong corrections, and doesn't tighten too much on my dogs neck if the prong should ever be pulled tight. 

With this method all I need is one leash


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## Chip18

Ugh I understand what your saying but honestly the Leerburgh "thing" is just another gimmick. Not much different than this creation by Cesar: 

Cesar Millan Pack Leader Collar - 1800PetMeds

Most likely Cesar created it for people that are to lazy to reposition a SLL snuggly when required?? For "me" it's all to much crap, people tend to get caught up in the concept of the tool and forget about the dog??

The more "hardware" you have between the dog and you, the harder it is to get your message thru to the dog. It's pretty easy to dismiss people that have worked with dozens if not hundreds or thousands of dogs. hat say thTey can have any dog walking properly on a leash in less than 5 minutes. If they've worked with that many dogs then they should be able to do just that. 

But ... as I say I am a "Pet Person" and I have only worked with a dozen or dogs and some of them were door bolters I rounded up in my neighborhood (Rocky got in the way of the Pit I wanted to capture but that's not my point.) Some of them had never been on a leash in there lives ( I knew some of them) nonetheless with me, inside of 3 minutes or less with most of them, they walked on a leash with me, like they had it there whole lives.

I know a lot of members are rather critical of a lot of things Cesar does. Especially with the SLL thing. But if you watch his shows the first thing he does is take off whatever crap the dogs owners have on them and he puts on a SLL! So "some" will say it's crap and the magic of TV. I see it a bit differently as I do and have done the exact same thing. I fashioned a SLL with a Jump rope for one stray as it was all I had at hand, worked out fine.  

And thus far I have never experienced the lunging barking, snarling leash reactive monsters, I see online and read about here?? A minute or two with a properly positioned SLL and the dog figures out "acting a fool" will get them uh nowhere?? They sit and look at me for direction and then we go. And acting like a fool never seems to occur to them a slight tug sideways if required and move along dog ... nothing to see here. 


It takes me minutes now, but it took me 10 years to understand how to do it. Pretty much my SLL thread was literally 10 years in the making, so those that want to do know don't have to start at ground zero. And the whole process started for me by ditching the Prong and going back to the basics as shown in the "New Dog a Challenge" thread. The rest of the story ... that clip is the first thing I was taught when I did attend a Puppy training class! I felt it was crap and I knew better. I used a "Prong Collar" wrong "pre internet" and the only dog I ever worked with that was bad on a leash was Gunther. I switched to a regular collar and flat leash with my first APBT/Boxer and never looked back.


Boxer rescue gave me the first SLL I ever used, they were pretty yet another useless tool for "them" but for me, it was "magic." I already understood how to walk a dog and the "high and snug" is pretty much the answer. Nothing to discuss this is the way it is end of story. The illusion collar tries to replicate the same thing based on how it looks, but without an understanding of the whole dog walking thing?? To me it just seems like yet another gimmick?? 

I like to employ the KISS principle myself. So I've never done a "Prong" thread, I leave that for others. But in finding dog walking clips for others everybody and their mother uses a "Prong Collar" so those are in my SLL thread.

But ... people using a "Prong Collar" often struggle with "corrections" and that is why by and large the trainers I follow ... just said "enough already" and started to recommend the "Pet Convincer" it takes the "correction" factor out of the hands of the owners. Pretty much that simple. 

But "sigh" the two leashes thing?? Not my thing but I have seen it being done by one of my guys! Slamdunc explained but I can elaborate ... in another post.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Slamdunc suggest use of a dominant dog collar like Chai is suggesting?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> SV,
> You may need the prong, a flat collar may not give you the leverage that you need. I am willing to be that I could walk and control your dog o a flat collar. You have a beautiful dog in your avatar. I don't see "Cujo" in that picture, but, I think perhaps that you do.
> 
> I am not making light of your situation, by any means. I just think the way you are going about it, and your extra precautions are overkill and unnecessary.
> 
> Everything is relative, and a good correction from me might be different than what you consider a good correction.
> 
> A good correction is designed to extinguish a behavior immediately, and one the dog remembers for a long time. A good correction for dog aggression should instantly stop the aggressive behavior. Now, if your dog redirects, or shows displaced aggression than you have to consider other options.
> 
> I have a seriously dog aggressive dog, and a strong dog to boot. He will not look at another dog while on lead. I have zero tolerance for dog aggression and he knows it. I will not even allow him to bark at my new male dog while they are in the car together. They are in separate crates, but can see each other. I am sure my corrections are harder than yours. I am also sure my dog needs and can handle a harder correction, especially for dog aggression.
> 
> So, yes a hard correction, a firm hand and proper praise and reward when the dog is correct and your problems will be solved. And I'm not being flip at all.


You have a lot of experience with extremely dog aggressive dogs. I see that your methods of training with this type of dog is to basically not tolerate the behaviors associated with it and to teach the dog to behave in a different manner when around other dogs.

Alternatively, I see many many Pit Bull rescues / trainers using various types of adversive methods to "rehabilitate" the Pit Bull to the point of it not being dog aggressive and dog park ready, sometimes within a week or two worth of sessions. At least this is what they claim.

1) Why don't you use these methods and "rehabilitate" your dog aggressive dog(s) or K9s?

2) In your opinion, do you think these adverisive methods actually "rehabilitate" dog aggressive dogs?

3) In your opinion, do you think those methods are bandaids that, without continuing follow up, help to get the Pit Bulls out the door and into homes, but the dog only regresses at a later point in time?

Bailiff, Blitzkrieg, please feel free to chime in.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Slamdunc suggest use of a dominant dog collar like Chai is suggesting?


In a fashion yes.* "nylon slip collar on a tab"
* not quite sure what a tab is but the short traffic leash I've seen before. 

I don't post a lot of Sean O'shea's clips these days as he uses to much "stuff" for my taste. But one of the things I've seen him do is walk dogs with two leashes in his hands?? 

One leash with a "Prong Collar" attached and second short traffic leash attached to a Dominant Dog Collar?? He manipulates the leashes in one hand and if he stops to talk with someone if the dog starts to act a fool ... he applies gentle upward pressure on the Traffic leash attached to the DDC until the dog "shuts up." So he does not "correct" the dog with the "prong Collar" he uses the DDC for corrections.

I listen to him often and he explains the hows and why here, :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_tfAVvFdA

It's in there but I can't remember how far in?? He has a lot of good insight but as I say to much "stuff" for my taste, but hey it's not about me, so his way may work for others??


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> In a fashion yes.* "nylon slip collar on a tab"
> * not quite sure what a tab is but the short traffic leash I've seen before.
> 
> I don't post a lot of Sean O'shea's clips these days as he uses to much "stuff" for my taste. But one of the things I've seen him do is walk dogs with two leashes in his hands??
> 
> One leash with a "Prong Collar" attached and second short traffic leash attached to a Dominant Dog Collar?? He manipulates the leashes in one hand and if he stops to talk with someone if the dog starts to act a fool ... he applies gentle upward pressure on the Traffic leash attached to the DDC until the dog "shuts up." So he does not "correct" the dog with the "prong Collar" he uses the DDC for corrections.
> 
> I listen to him often and he explains the hows and why here, :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_tfAVvFdA
> 
> It's in there but I can't remember how far in?? He has a lot of good insight but as I say to much "stuff" for my taste, but hey it's not about me, so his way may work for others??


All I am saying is Chai said they liked a dominant dog collar and Slamdunc suggested its use in a previous post, one leash, and you seemed to disapprove?


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All I am saying is Chai said they liked a dominant dog collar and Slamdunc suggested its use in a previous post, one leash, and you seemed to disapprove?


Hmmm I disapprove ??? Oh ... I see, "disapprove" is a bit of an overstatement.

A SSL can be used as a DDC, I have never had the need to use it as such but I could if required. The little tab thing positioned properly in the beginning works just fine for me. It does loosen up and fall down a bit while walking but in my limited experience, it only takes a minuet or two to make your point in the beginning. The dog may try and struggle to get it off at first and then he no longer cares.

I don't hang a dog with it or use it as a DDC, I maximize the little tabby thing to keep it snug in the beginning. I just wait and let them "figure it out." The dogs I've worked with don't really care if the Slip is high or low after the intro. If I suspect there may be an issue, then I will reposition as required to get it high and snug again but by and large it's not needed. A SLL and a 15 foot leash are all I use for training. 

But I like to understand all "real" tools as you never know when you my come across "that" dog.

But that's me, the DDC may be a valuable tool for others?? I merely state "my" personal basis against using "stuff" nothing more than that.


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## Jiffylush

*The simplest solution*

Call Animal Control. Call Animal Control every single time. There is no reason for you to be stressed or concerned by people breaking the law.

If there are dogs off leash in your neighborhood and you don't want dogs off leash in your neighborhood you need to call animal control.

I used to sit a wonderful catahoula mix that was just the sweetest dog except that she was quite dog aggressive.

I live in a condo and the neighbor that lived four doors down would sit out on his porch drunk with his tiny dog off leash. Moo (the catahoula) would be deadly silent, wait for the dog to run up and lunge for it. A couple of times I didn't know the other dog was there until Moo was lunging. The drunken idiot would just say "Oh she's fine", "She wouldn't hurt anyone", obviously I wasn't worried about his dog attacking even if she was being extremely aggressive. I was worried about his dog being hurt or killed.

I called AC repeatedly, contacted the condo board repeatedly, talked to other neighbors repeatedly (all had similar problems with him). All I wanted was for him to have the dog on a leash. He refused, his landlord decided not to renew his lease and the problem is gone.

Leash laws exist to protect dogs, they also protect other people and animals. Lots of people seem to think that leash laws don't apply to them because their dog is "good". It is very important that they know leash laws apply to everyone. You can teach them that lesson with a simple phone call.

These people have chosen to live in a community with leash laws and they benefit from those laws, they absolutely need to abide by them.


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## Stonevintage

This is the leash/collar system that I had trouble with as a backup to the prong. I tried her with it 3 times over a one year period and got the same reaction each time.

When I put this on her. She'll give an initial pull against it and freezes. Once this tightens it does not easily loosen. I believe it's this continued light restriction that is putting her in the panic. It's as if she feels she's still getting a continuous light correction and is not sure what she is doing wrong to get that correction. She will not walk two feet with one of these on.

There is no problem with this with the prong, flat or a regular choke collar. For this reason - I can see the collar that Chai suggested as a possibility. However, what is the difference between that one and just using a regular choke collar? Then we're back to the reason to use a prong and not a choke because of the distribution of the correction and not just restriction in a concentrated part of the collar....

Pinch collars can come undone. I've had it happen twice. I want a backup collar for that and to hold her tags when we're out. I can see the DDC and the back up flat collar holding tags but not the slip or Pinch. 

I will not hold my dog off the ground and choke her with a slip. I will not electrocute her, I will not throw things at her and I will not whip her.


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You have a lot of experience with extremely dog aggressive dogs. I see that your methods of training with this type of dog is to basically not tolerate the behaviors associated with it and to teach the dog to behave in a different manner when around other dogs.
> 
> Alternatively, I see many many Pit Bull rescues / trainers using various types of adversive methods to "rehabilitate" the Pit Bull to the point of it not being dog aggressive and dog park ready, sometimes within a week or two worth of sessions. At least this is what they claim.
> 
> 1) Why don't you use these methods and "rehabilitate" your dog aggressive dog(s) or K9s?
> 
> 2) In your opinion, do you think these adverisive methods actually "rehabilitate" dog aggressive dogs?
> 
> 3) In your opinion, do you think those methods are bandaids that, without continuing follow up, help to get the Pit Bulls out the door and into homes, but the dog only regresses at a later point in time?
> 
> Bailiff, Blitzkrieg, please feel free to chime in.


I'd say the vast majority of dog aggression cases can be rehabilitated but it isn't what people normally think of. It isn't that you'll necessarily get a dog that used to want to fight other dogs to the point it will never fight another dog again. Really what you are going for in that scenario is to make the dog 1. Inhibited to doing the behavior of fighting or any precuror behavior that would lead up to a fight. Then 2 you add that layer of good and fun experiences with other dogs to where they learn to be social and let their guard down some and aren't soon anything preemtively for self preservation. And then 3 you want to get rid of any barrier or leash aggression behaviors through punishment. 

These behaviors can and do creep back up again in the absence of punishment. They do because they are natural behaviors intrensic to the dog. They resolve issues with each other through violence. To a large extent so do we. That is a fact so whenever you see those precursors of the behavior coming back the dog has to be punished to keep it gone. However, if you stay on top of it properly the incidence of those behaviors approaches zero. This happens rather quickly with the vast majority of cases once they generalize they get punished everywhere for trying those old behaviors again. If you miss an incident the behavior creeps back into the repertoire quickly. Consistency is therefore key. 

There does come a period of time if you stick with it in the vast majority of cases where it is almost or is never an issue again. 

There is no guarantee a dog won't fight with another dog even if those dogs aren't normally DA. The owners always have to observe watch for signs an issue is going to happen and be ready to intervene before it is serious and that requires knowledge and a certain amount of skill.

Dog training overall is about having a picture in your mind about how you want to see your dog behave and taking steps to make that picture a reality. It takes work. The work never stops until the dog is dead or you are dead. In the end everyone gets the dog they deserve, namely the dog they are willing to work for. There are of course hard limits in certain cases due to our skill levels or the dogs genetic code, but for the most part you get what you put into it.


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## SuperG

Chip18 said:


> But that's me, the DDC may be a valuable tool for others??


DDC collar high up on the neck with minimal slack if any...with either a flat collar or prong a bit lower on the neck...I have a short jumper connecting the two collars with the lead attached to the prong or flat. Engaging the prong or flat never engages the DDC...if the DDC needs to be engaged...I grab the jumper which is right there easily accessible so it eliminates having two leads. I tend to walk my dog with the 6 foot lead coiled up in my hand at many times...still loose, so my left arm can freely move. A DDC for DA is either used 100% or not at all...unlike a longer slip lead/collar which allows the dog to pick its own level of discomfort until it decides otherwise. A DDC when used for DA or human aggression is definitive with no "settings" ....therefore the dog gets the message amazingly fast ....a dog may choose to test its level of discomfort and struggle against a longer nylon slip lead when used as a single collar/lead...this is where I see the biggest difference....

SuperG


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## Baillif

Case in point I have a shiba inu in this class that needed to be punished big time for the first three days because everytime a dog got near her out of curiosity or whatever she would viciously snap at them. So I punished her everytime it happened and then for the next three days she would just kind of sit there. She didn't want to interact with any dogs but she wasn't overtly hostile. I still kept her in group and then started to do things to cheer her up when she was out there. She didn't enjoy being out there with them at all but I kept putting her out there. Day 6-7 she found a playmate and started playing the days after that she found another and now she's playing with everyone and having a great time.

It started off behavior suppression but now it is full behavior modification. You just have to stick with the process.


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## SuperG

Stonevintage said:


> I will not hold my dog off the ground and choke her with a slip.


Only their front two pads come off the ground is all it takes mostly......and for a matter of a few seconds...done and over with.

Consider this, putting your own thoughts aside of what you will or will not subject your dog to....currently, your dog and you walk about with such trepidation it is overwhelming both of you and it seems to be getting worse. Imagine being able to correct this problem quickly and effectively and then being able to go wherever you choose with a dog which does not light up around other dogs in close proximity....imagine your state of mind and the comfort it will bring you...but most importantly...think of the comfort your dog will enjoy because it no longer needs/chooses to exhibit this DA behavior. Your dog, through exposure to the element over a short bit of time will understand it still survived without loosing its crap...and all along the way...every time it keeps it crap together...you can reward the daylights out of the dog.

FWIW, the way I was instructed to use a DDC was the handler never issues a verbal warning/command before or during the few seconds the DDC is engaged.....just maintain a calm mentality and the moment the dog desists, the pressure is eliminated and the dog takes a sitting heel position. In many ways..the lesson the dog learns is one of an environmental consequence similar to the first time a dog attacks a porcupine and has a mouth and throat full of quills...chances are....the dog will not make the same choice again.

SuperG


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## Stonevintage

Thank you for the explanation Super G. That is a large difference in fit and function.


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## dogma13

G,it's more about how to deal with loose dogs that are dog aggressive.I agree that Stone needs to gain confidence.I almost wish a dog would rush them during a walk so she could successfully drive it away and conquer her fear.I can relate to your feelings Stone.When we spend most of our time alone we over think things and worry too much.I wish we could walk together.I'd bring the hornet spray,you'd bring the air horn and the loose dogs would run at the sight of us!Matching "Dog Buster" t shirts


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## Stonevintage

I can see the benefit of the DDC as a back up to the prong. I can also see that this will eliminate the need for the longer connector between that and the pinch and I can attach a shorter connector. 

That link that Chai posted carries some pretty hefty warnings about pro training required to actually use the DDC for anything other than a backup collar. Is that because of the possibility that your dog could resent your hand so close to his neck choking him out (or restraining) like they can with even a flat or is it because it can do damage to the dog? Because the DDC needs such a tight fit also - where could I put her dog tags?

The DDC cannot be used for the normal pop corrections the prong can. I do trust the prong to stop her even from DA.

As far as the other end of the leash Dogma - you are absolutely correct. I have been with my dogs when they did get in fights with other dogs through the years. I did not panic and the fights were not serious. They do sound a whole lot worse than they are most times and are normally over and settled fairly quickly.

My fear is of encountering the breeds that to not let go. I can restrain my dog with the prong but I cannot also restrain a stray. I have every confidence that my dog would be able to repel most breeds of dog attacks if need be. But, not the ones that don't let go. Until I find a fix for that - no collar or control of my dog is really the issue is it?

If I change to the DDC as a backup to the prong - it will only be to exchange the long connector for a shorter one and get rid of the backup leash. Won't do a thing to get rid of my concern.


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## SuperG

dogma13 said:


> G,it's more about how to deal with loose dogs that are dog aggressive.I agree that Stone needs to gain confidence.I almost wish a dog would rush them during a walk so she could successfully drive it away and conquer her fear.I can relate to your feelings Stone.When we spend most of our time alone we over think things and worry too much.I wish we could walk together.I'd bring the hornet spray,you'd bring the air horn and the loose dogs would run at the sight of us!Matching "Dog Buster" t shirts



I agree with you that the potential for loose dogs coming across one's path while one is out for an enjoyable walk is a real spoiler....I'd be a liar to suggest it doesn't cross my mind at times. I've had it happen a few times and it certainly can get the adrenaline going....it does create a situation where immediate action is required especially when it gets ugly. I guess the upside of owning a GSD or other formidable breeds is the dog is better equipped for the fray when it occurs.....kind of makes me have more empathy for smaller more vulnerable dogs and their owners. 

And...yes, I agree with your thoughts " I almost wish a dog would rush them during a walk so she could successfully drive it away and conquer her fear."....when you have a plan in mind and one gets to employ it and it works....it lightens one's load going forward.

SuperG


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## SuperG

Stonevintage said:


> That link that Chai posted carries some pretty hefty warnings about pro training required to actually use the DDC for anything other than a backup collar. I do trust the prong to stop her even from DA.


I recruited knowledgeable instructors on how to use a DDC properly.....they happened to be LE officers....seemed very familiar with the use of this type of collar. I think Chai is absolutely correct in suggesting one should seek quality mentoring when using this tool if you never have before.

If the prong works for her DA.....then using a DDC is probably not needed.


SuperG


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## WateryTart

LuvShepherds said:


> Dogs that body slam when playing don't do well at dog parks. Pitts do and another breed, but I don't know which one. I was told this by a rescue group that won't take mixes with Pitts or the other breed.


My GSD body slams. Among other things. Then again, she adores pit bull types and they're some of her favorite playmates, so maybe that's where she learned it. On the other hand, if her playmate makes it known they don't like that, she's actually pretty good about backing off and moving to playing chase instead.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> Frankly, your dog is not ready to be taken to an outdoor café. And if I was there, I would be upset that you brought a dog like that to such a setting. I would be wanting to enjoy my food, and your dog's inability to cope with the world would be upsetting my wa. I'd be paying to be there and I wouldn't want to feel like going over there, grabbing the leash out of your hand an smacking you upside the head. It's rude. We take our well-behaved dogs places, and then we do not overwhelm people with their presence.
> 
> If you had to hang onto your dog's muzzle to try and quiet the dog down, sorry you had no business being where you were with the dog.


Just snipping to emphasize the part with which I most agree.


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## Jax08

WateryTart said:


> My GSD body slams..


Both of mine do. And they sound like they are killing each other. Teeth, spit and noise. 

My SIL was over one day. A rare occurrence thankfully. The two were playing and she kept saying "play nice". First, stop telling my dogs what to do in my house, or anywhere. Second, they are being nice.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> I'd say the vast majority of dog aggression cases can be rehabilitated but it isn't what people normally think of. It isn't that you'll necessarily get a dog that used to want to fight other dogs to the point it will never fight another dog again. Really what you are going for in that scenario is to make the dog 1. Inhibited to doing the behavior of fighting or any precuror behavior that would lead up to a fight. *Then 2 you add that layer of good and fun experiences with other dogs to where they learn to be social and let their guard down some and aren't soon anything preemtively for self preservation. * And then 3 you want to get rid of any barrier or leash aggression behaviors through punishment.
> 
> These behaviors can and do creep back up again in the absence of punishment. They do because they are natural behaviors intrensic to the dog. They resolve issues with each other through violence. To a large extent so do we. That is a fact so whenever you see those precursors of the behavior coming back the dog has to be punished to keep it gone. However, if you stay on top of it properly the incidence of those behaviors approaches zero. This happens rather quickly with the vast majority of cases once they generalize they get punished everywhere for trying those old behaviors again. If you miss an incident the behavior creeps back into the repertoire quickly. Consistency is therefore key.
> 
> There does come a period of time if you stick with it in the vast majority of cases where it is almost or is never an issue again.
> 
> There is no guarantee a dog won't fight with another dog even if those dogs aren't normally DA. The owners always have to observe watch for signs an issue is going to happen and be ready to intervene before it is serious and that requires knowledge and a certain amount of skill.
> 
> Dog training overall is about having a picture in your mind about how you want to see your dog behave and taking steps to make that picture a reality. It takes work. The work never stops until the dog is dead or you are dead. In the end everyone gets the dog they deserve, namely the dog they are willing to work for. There are of course hard limits in certain cases due to our skill levels or the dogs genetic code, but for the most part you get what you put into it.


I have been told by informed parties about their breeds that some dogs are gamebred, to fight to the finish without regard to bodily harm, to lack self preservation. How do you think this plays in to behavior modification for dog aggression?

I remember Diane Jessup taking a dog to training and commenting on the DA among the GSDs. I have also heard many K9s are extremely dog aggressive. I know these people are not looking for dog park dogs, but to the best of my knowledge, they follow through on step one as you described but stop short of step two. Why do you think they would not follow through with step two as it would appear to me that it would make for a safer and easier controlled dog?


----------



## Chip18

SuperG said:


> DDC collar high up on the neck with minimal slack if any...with either a flat collar or prong a bit lower on the neck...I have a short jumper connecting the two collars with the lead attached to the prong or flat. Engaging the prong or flat never engages the DDC...if the DDC needs to be engaged...I grab the jumper which is right there easily accessible so it eliminates having two leads. I tend to walk my dog with the 6 foot lead coiled up in my hand at many times...still loose, so my left arm can freely move. A DDC for DA is either used 100% or not at all...unlike a longer slip lead/collar which allows the dog to pick its own level of discomfort until it decides otherwise. A DDC when used for DA or human aggression is definitive with no "settings" ....therefore the dog gets the message amazingly fast ....a dog may choose to test its level of discomfort and struggle against a longer nylon slip lead when used as a single collar/lead...this is where I see the biggest difference....
> 
> SuperG


LOL *pick it's own level of discomfort*, Luv it! :laugh2:

Baillif and SuperG, thanks for the "additional" insight guys! I guess I should also add an additional reason I'm so "Pro SLL" is because if you do Animal Rescue work most shelters will not let you use"tools" on there (badly behaved) dogs. But they will hand you a "SLL" and not think twice about it ... it's just a leash after all.


----------



## Muskeg

MAWL- interesting thoughts on the whole "dog rehab" process. For me, when I am out in public with my dogs, I DO NOT allow any interaction with strange dogs unless we are in a designated dog park area with a bunch of goofy dogs racing about, and then the interaction is usually just tolerating a sniff. 

Interaction with a group of dogs out in a supervised class or play area or even dog park is very different, and a very different "picture" to a dog, than an interaction with, say, a single dog out on a walk or hike. Somewhat similar to how people operate in a crowd at a concert, say, vs. how we operate when passing one person out on a walk. 

There is usually a pack dynamic going on when you are out on a trail or walking the street with your dog(s). The pack may consist of one owner and her dog, or one owner and multiple dogs. Thus, this meeting is between two "tribes" as it were made up of dog(s)-owners. The possibility for an encounter going south is higher in this scenario.

Contrast this to a dog park or dog training center, where there are usually (not always) multiple dogs per handler and not necessarily one designated handler per dog, hence there is little of that pack dynamic. Often the dogs are out of their element, they have no owner to "back them up" or to project from, as in a training center. 

Or in a dog park, the dogs are just overwhelmed by so many dogs rushing about that they don't key into one for an antagonistic encounter (as often). The dog-owner are not travelling together as a pack as they would on a trail. The dogs are often all over the place. They do not have that dynamic of a strange pack to pack encounter. 

So, to say that a dog that is rehabbed to behave and even play with other dogs in a class setting or even a dog park, will generalize that to being friendly in greeting strange dogs on the street or trail, I don't think that is correct. I think being around or playing with dogs at class or the park can help some dogs "let their guard down" and be less suspicious of strange dogs, but it's not a life long fix. Some dogs simply don't have an interest in socializing with strange dogs. Period. That is where management (training) by the owner comes into play. For me, I want my dogs to ignore and even avoid other dogs when we are out running. You see this training a lot, in fact is it very common, with people who have multiple dogs out hiking, running, or even mushing. Ignore and pass by is key. 

I can't speak for Slam, I hope he comes on to give his opinion, but for working K9s, there may be issues with working through the dog aggression in the typical "rehab" way I've seen where a dog is thrown into a pen full of other dogs with handlers carrying whips or prods or whatever to correct aggression and prevent a fight. The dog shuts down and then starts opening up and playing, usually. I'd guess this would disempower a police k9, and conflict with their work which involves controlled aggression. And with handler aggression, and other traits some K9s carry, I don't see any reason for it. 

Plus, the K9 needs to work closely with the handler. Letting him be social with other dogs (if he actually was "rehabbed") could be a mistake, if done incorrectly. Better to teach him to ignore other dogs... but curious what Slam says.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> MAWL- interesting thoughts on the whole "dog rehab" process. For me, when I am out in public with my dogs, I DO NOT allow any interaction with strange dogs unless we are in a designated dog park area with a bunch of goofy dogs racing about, and then the interaction is usually just tolerating a sniff.
> 
> Interaction with a group of dogs out in a supervised class or play area or even dog park is very different, and a very different "picture" to a dog, than an interaction with, say, a single dog out on a walk or hike. Somewhat similar to how people operate in a crowd at a concert, say, vs. how we operate when passing one person out on a walk.
> 
> There is usually a pack dynamic going on when you are out on a trail or walking the street with your dog(s). The pack may consist of one owner and her dog, or one owner and multiple dogs. Thus, this meeting is between two "tribes" as it were made up of dog(s)-owners. The possibility for an encounter going south is higher in this scenario.
> 
> Contrast this to a dog park or dog training center, where there are usually (not always) multiple dogs per handler and not necessarily one designated handler per dog, hence there is little of that pack dynamic. Often the dogs are out of their element, they have no owner to "back them up" or to project from, as in a training center.
> 
> Or in a dog park, the dogs are just overwhelmed by so many dogs rushing about that they don't key into one for an antagonistic encounter (as often). The dog-owner are not travelling together as a pack as they would on a trail. The dogs are often all over the place. They do not have that dynamic of a strange pack to pack encounter.
> 
> So, to say that a dog that is rehabbed to behave and even play with other dogs in a class setting or even a dog park, will generalize that to being friendly in greeting strange dogs on the street or trail, I don't think that is correct. I think being around or playing with dogs at class or the park can help some dogs "let their guard down" and be less suspicious of strange dogs, but it's not a life long fix. Some dogs simply don't have an interest in socializing with strange dogs. Period. That is where management (training) by the owner comes into play. For me, I want my dogs to ignore and even avoid other dogs when we are out running. You see this training a lot, in fact is it very common, with people who have multiple dogs out hiking, running, or even mushing. Ignore and pass by is key.
> 
> I can't speak for Slam, I hope he comes on to give his opinion, but for working K9s, there may be issues with working through the dog aggression in the typical "rehab" way I've seen where a dog is thrown into a pen full of other dogs with handlers carrying whips or prods or whatever to correct aggression and prevent a fight. The dog shuts down and then starts opening up and playing, usually. I'd guess this would disempower a police k9, and conflict with their work which involves controlled aggression. And with handler aggression, and other traits some K9s carry, I don't see any reason for it.
> 
> Plus, the K9 needs to work closely with the handler. Letting him be social with other dogs (if he actually was "rehabbed") could be a mistake, if done incorrectly. Better to teach him to ignore other dogs... but curious what Slam says.


There are many shades of gray involved. 

The reason I mentioned being friendly in a dog park and during on the street meet and greets is that this is the cure of which many speak is happening. You don't seem to buy into that lock, stock, and barrel, and I feel the same, hence the line of questioning.

I do hope Jim, Blitzkrieg and maybe even some others like Cliff or Anne might add to clarify.


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## Muskeg

Yes, I don't buy into it MAWL. I also take issue with the word rehabbed. I doubt Slam's K9 needs to be "rehabbed". Rather, the dog is trained and handled so he never gets to express his DA side. Nothing has gone wrong with the dog so he needs to be rehabbed to his "original state". Unless of course in an example where a dog was once super friendly, had a bad encounter, and became aggressive. Then perhaps "rehab" is appropriate. It's just an overused term, in my opinion. 

I do think any dog can be managed and controlled to ignore and not attack passing dogs. But I do not think every dog should or maybe even can, be friendly to strange dogs in every situation. Particularly dogs who naturally either see other dogs as a potential threat or as something to fight.


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> I can see the benefit of the DDC as a back up to the prong. I can also see that this will eliminate the need for the longer connector between that and the pinch and I can attach a shorter connector.
> 
> That link that Chai posted carries some pretty hefty warnings about pro training required to actually use the DDC for anything other than a backup collar. Is that because of the possibility that your dog could resent your hand so close to his neck choking him out (or restraining) like they can with even a flat or is it because it can do damage to the dog? Because the DDC needs such a tight fit also - where could I put her dog tags?
> 
> The DDC cannot be used for the normal pop corrections the prong can. I do trust the prong to stop her even from DA.
> 
> As far as the other end of the leash Dogma - you are absolutely correct. I have been with my dogs when they did get in fights with other dogs through the years. I did not panic and the fights were not serious. They do sound a whole lot worse than they are most times and are normally over and settled fairly quickly.
> 
> My fear is of encountering the breeds that to not let go. I can restrain my dog with the prong but I cannot also restrain a stray. I have every confidence that my dog would be able to repel most breeds of dog attacks if need be. But, not the ones that don't let go. Until I find a fix for that - no collar or control of my dog is really the issue is it?
> 
> If I change to the DDC as a backup to the prong - it will only be to exchange the long connector for a shorter one and get rid of the backup leash. Won't do a thing to get rid of my concern.


Your concerns are valid of course but you have to take solving them one step at a time.

You can't control random loose dog encounters but you are making the degree of difficulty in replying strays much greater by adding your dogs behaviour into the situation. 

So instead of having one dog to deal with ... you have two dogs to deal with, the attacker and your own dog. That's going to be a pretty heavy lift! 

A well trained dog will stand "idly" by while it's owner deters "aggressors." Rocky has done it now on numerous occasions. I tell him "stay" and I step in "front to handle it."

I had no idea he was a stray dog magnet?? But fending off aggressors ... is what "we" do and he only steps forward when it's pretty clear that well "Daddy is down, I guess it's up to me, ( the two charging strays our first encounter) or "Daddy" is going to "create a situation here??" When he stepped beside me and smiled in the charging "Pit Derivatives face" that dog seemed pretty intent on doing harm in my view?? To Rocky "apparently" not so much. And the last "Pit" encounter I did have to block him but he was behind and walked up on a dog charging "Daddy" the dog was actually charging him but that's not how he saw it?? So I did have to block Rocky that night.  

Nonetheless the first step is ... "your" dog has to be under control, uncontrolled DA is going to make your "job" in protecting your dog much more difficult. 

You can't practice rehab by depending on random stray encounters but if you could find a Dog Park you could work outside of with sigh ... "Place" that would be a start in the right direction.

Or if there are confined dogs close to you?? You can "practice" ignoring them. I would suggest the DDC (and you don't pop it like a leash) gentle upward pressure until the dog gets the message or a Pet Convincer. You could of course use the "Prong" with a slight sideways pop. But like most tools the "Prong" is a two edged sword, *"it can take drive out of a dog and it can put drive into a dog" * the Pet Convincer ... takes the issue off the table.

Long way of saying you have to get your dog uncontrol first, then you'll only have the intruder to deal with ... baby steps.

Pretty much a lot of the methods for dealing with "DA" leash reactivity "stuff" can be found here ... 
Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## voodoolamb

Instead of using a back up collar with my prong. I did a paracord wrap around it. It does not interfere with function. It prevents popping. And it looks nice. Doesn't look like a prong anymore. So no busy bodies and stares.

Wish I had a pic of the one I did, it's at my BF's house (we use it on his dog). Anywho this is what I am talking about:

Paracord | Welcome to Von Der King

I gutted my cord for a tighter fit and I didn't install a buckle as I had a quick release prong. On the dead ring it is as safe as any flat collar as far as fear of popping goes. I don't really trust the quick release snap on mine so I don't use the live ring without a back up. I may make another with a buckle next time I am feeling crafty.


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have been told by informed parties about their breeds that some dogs are gamebred, to fight to the finish without regard to bodily harm, to lack self preservation. How do you think this plays in to behavior modification for dog aggression?
> 
> I remember Diane Jessup taking a dog to training and commenting on the DA among the GSDs. I have also heard many K9s are extremely dog aggressive. I know these people are not looking for dog park dogs, but to the best of my knowledge, they follow through on step one as you described but stop short of step two. Why do you think they would not follow through with step two as it would appear to me that it would make for a safer and easier controlled dog?


I dunno. If the dog is edgy sometimes it doesn't matter. You get one that is edgy and it stays edgy upon meeting new dogs because that is its genetic character then that's kinda what you have. Inhibition is your only line of defense against new dog meeting altercations. They can of course be socialized eventually with that one dog and get on fine if you maintain it.. If you have a dog that was DA because of a bad experience or because of lack of socialization that's something different. Your outcomes can be much better and faster with those. IMO you can't really tell for sure what you have until you try.

Puppy program here we try to load the young dogs up with lots of good experiences with a ton of dogs. If they get attacked after that it will not color their experience toward all dogs maybe just against the one that attacked it. If you have a young dog and it gets attacked before it sees a lot of other dogs then it can really color the perception that dog has about all dogs for life.

Predicting final outcome isn't really all that possible till you try. Generally the success rate I find is very very high.


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## Stonevintage

Thank you Chip. But none of that is going to happen. It is the nature of my personal life. This is how this post started. I have to make my dog behave and quit the DA. I don't have money for a trainer and the Taxi system took Summer as a pup but has a ban on adult GSD's. Wherever I go with her, we walk. 

As I said, if I have to stop a stray altercation by physically blocking the stray, that's not going to happen. My dog sitting placidly while a stray attacks is not going to happen. If this is the only way I can walk her - to have her submissive and I do the physical work, then she will no longer go for walks.


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## Baillif

All that work can quickly be reversed by strange dog meetings that go bad though. You should only socialize dogs in 1 of 2 places. At a well run daycare where they correct dogs for being dicks (very very hard to find) or with friends or family dogs where you are both willing to correct dogs for being asses and you can do regular play date kinda stuff.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> I dunno. If the dog is edgy sometimes it doesn't matter. You get one that is edgy and it stays edgy upon meeting new dogs because that is its genetic character then that's kinda what you have. Inhibition is your only line of defense against new dog meeting altercations. They can of course be socialized eventually with that one dog and get on fine if you maintain it.. If you have a dog that was DA because of a bad experience or because of lack of socialization that's something different. Your outcomes can be much better and faster with those. IMO you can't really tell for sure what you have until you try.
> 
> Puppy program here we try to load the young dogs up with lots of good experiences with a ton of dogs. If they get attacked after that it will not color their experience toward all dogs maybe just against the one that attacked it. If you have a young dog and it gets attacked before it sees a lot of other dogs then it can really color the perception that dog has about all dogs for life.
> 
> Predicting final outcome isn't really all that possible till you try. Generally the success rate I find is very very high.


I agree that dogs with DA that was brought on by environment would be much easier to address and would result in a higher success rate. My questions are more geared toward dogs with a genetic propensity.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Yes, I don't buy into it MAWL. I also take issue with the word rehabbed. I doubt Slam's K9 needs to be "rehabbed". Rather, the dog is trained and handled so he never gets to express his DA side. Nothing has gone wrong with the dog so he needs to be rehabbed to his "original state". Unless of course in an example where a dog was once super friendly, had a bad encounter, and became aggressive. Then perhaps "rehab" is appropriate. It's just an overused term, in my opinion.
> 
> I do think any dog can be managed and controlled to ignore and not attack passing dogs. But I do not think every dog should or maybe even can, be friendly to strange dogs in every situation. Particularly dogs who naturally either see other dogs as a potential threat or as something to fight.


I think a part of my questioning would be if you have a dog that is extremely dog aggressive, you can teach it not to act on those tendencies and to be neutral in the presence of other dogs, but you would still have the DA roiling beneath the surface, that is if you only follow through on step 1 as presented by Bailiff. On the other hand, IMO, if you can supposedly take these dogs to step 2 as presented by Bailiff and teach them that dogs are good, and then from this stage, then one could teach neutrality resulting in what I would think is a safer, calmer and more neutral dog that would be easier to work with around other dogs, but this is only if you believe that DA can be cured.

:help:


----------



## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> Thank you Chip. But none of that is going to happen. It is the nature of my personal life. This is how this post started. I have to make my dog behave and quit the DA. I don't have money for a trainer and the Taxi system took Summer as a pup but has a ban on adult GSD's. Wherever I go with her, we walk.
> 
> As I said, if I have to stop a stray altercation by physically blocking the stray, that's not going to happen. My dog sitting placidly while a stray attacks is not going to happen. If this is the only way I can walk her - to have her submissive and I do the physical work, then she will no longer go for walks.


I am so confused about the direction of this thread. 

I'm sure that we all appreciate the training tips and advice but the topic on the table is unleashed, out of control or improperly secured and unattended dogs. 
The bottom line is that in most places on this continent it is unlawful to not have care and control of your dog. Period. 
If Stone is uncomfortable with loose, or unsecured dogs then so be it. Why is every one so insistent that this is wrong? 
It pains me to watch all of this judgemental crap. Please keep in mind that the owners on this forum are but a small percentage of dog owners, and largely not the norm. Some of you may own dogs that are perfectly reliable and controlled off leash. A majority of dog owners cannot say that. 
Summer is DA. The prong has fallen off in the past. Stone is uncomfortable with the possibilities. These are facts. Let it be.
I have my own dogs, this does not imply that I am comfortable with all dogs, nor does it imply that I want to deal with an unknown dog. Don't make me. 
As I stated before the bottom line is that I, and Stone, have a reasonable expectation that we can walk down a public sidewalk unmolested, with or without our leashed and controlled dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think the topic of this thread was being able to walk down a public sidewalk without being bothered by unleashed dogs BECAUSE OP's dog has issues with dog aggression and reactivity.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the topic of this thread was being able to walk down a public sidewalk without being bothered by unleashed dogs BECAUSE OP's dog has issues with dog aggression and reactivity.


*Public sidewalk* and *bothered by unleashed dog* are the key phrases here.


----------



## Jiffylush

Baillif said:


> All that work can quickly be reversed by strange dog meetings that go bad though. You should only socialize dogs in 1 of 2 places. At a well run daycare where they correct dogs for being dicks (very very hard to find) or with friends or family dogs where you are both willing to correct dogs for being asses and you can do regular play date kinda stuff.


The controlled environment is key.

I adopted a three year old female named Bella about a month ago and I've been able to test her out with my friends very well socialized dogs. They have three dogs so we did the initial meet and greet one on one, by the second visit there was no hesitation by anyone.

It has really helped my stress and comfort levels to see her meet strange dogs and within a minute or two be running around having a blast with them. Not to mention that it's a great way to wear her out.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> *Public sidewalk* and *bothered by unleashed dog* are the key phrases here.


That is your opinion and you are titled to it.

My opinion, like many others on here, is that *dog aggression* and *reactivity* are the keywords here.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is your opinion and you are titled to it.
> 
> My opinion, like many others on here, is that *dog aggression* and *reactivity* are the keywords here.


Except it isn't an opinion. It's the law. Dogs must be leashed/controlled.

Stone has proven that Summer is controlled and learning. At no point is it acceptable that on a public sidewalk the concern is loose dogs approaching them. 
And again tying a dog a the entrance to a business is straight ignorant. Lots of people are deathly afraid of dogs.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Except it isn't an opinion. It's the law. Dogs must be leashed/controlled.
> 
> Stone has proven that Summer is controlled and learning. At no point is it acceptable that on a public sidewalk the concern is loose dogs approaching them.
> And again tying a dog a the entrance to a business is straight ignorant. Lots of people are deathly afraid of dogs.


There are laws that state what topics are about on this forum?


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> Except it isn't an opinion. It's the law. Dogs must be leashed/controlled.
> 
> Stone has proven that Summer is controlled and learning. At no point is it acceptable that on a public sidewalk the concern is loose dogs approaching them.
> And again tying a dog a the entrance to a business is straight ignorant. Lots of people are deathly afraid of dogs.


It's actually not a law everywhere. And even where there is a leash law, like Ohio, it allows for dogs who are under control of a responsible person. So you have demonstrate that you are in control of the dog, you do not necessarily have to have the dog leashed to you at every moment. 

So if I heeled my dog down the street and she stayed at my side in heel position, then she is under control. If I open my front door and say, Go Potty, and bring her in an hour later -- that wouldn't qualify, unless there was no way for her to leave the yard.


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## Stonevintage

Thank you Sabis Mom!

As you know, people will turn things around to change the topic. I did enjoy the information that Voodoo gave - particularly on the break stick as this is applicable to an on the street encounter with a stray.

Much of the rest of it I knew was coming - as people get bored and want to poke a stick at whatever's moving or because the topic appears to be getting a lot of viewers and good responses - some will try to it divert to topics of their particular interest. It's all here.

But yes, Sabis Mom - you are absolutely correct and I appreciate your effort. Lol - as it always goes, it gets to a point when they will argue about anything just for the sake of participating....


----------



## Slamdunc

Muskeg said:


> MAWL- interesting thoughts on the whole "dog rehab" process. For me, when I am out in public with my dogs, I DO NOT allow any interaction with strange dogs unless we are in a designated dog park area with a bunch of goofy dogs racing about, and then the interaction is usually just tolerating a sniff.
> 
> Interaction with a group of dogs out in a supervised class or play area or even dog park is very different, and a very different "picture" to a dog, than an interaction with, say, a single dog out on a walk or hike. Somewhat similar to how people operate in a crowd at a concert, say, vs. how we operate when passing one person out on a walk.
> 
> There is usually a pack dynamic going on when you are out on a trail or walking the street with your dog(s). The pack may consist of one owner and her dog, or one owner and multiple dogs. Thus, this meeting is between two "tribes" as it were made up of dog(s)-owners. The possibility for an encounter going south is higher in this scenario.
> 
> Contrast this to a dog park or dog training center, where there are usually (not always) multiple dogs per handler and not necessarily one designated handler per dog, hence there is little of that pack dynamic. Often the dogs are out of their element, they have no owner to "back them up" or to project from, as in a training center.
> 
> Or in a dog park, the dogs are just overwhelmed by so many dogs rushing about that they don't key into one for an antagonistic encounter (as often). The dog-owner are not travelling together as a pack as they would on a trail. The dogs are often all over the place. They do not have that dynamic of a strange pack to pack encounter.
> 
> So, to say that a dog that is rehabbed to behave and even play with other dogs in a class setting or even a dog park, will generalize that to being friendly in greeting strange dogs on the street or trail, I don't think that is correct. I think being around or playing with dogs at class or the park can help some dogs "let their guard down" and be less suspicious of strange dogs, but it's not a life long fix. Some dogs simply don't have an interest in socializing with strange dogs. Period. That is where management (training) by the owner comes into play. For me, I want my dogs to ignore and even avoid other dogs when we are out running. You see this training a lot, in fact is it very common, with people who have multiple dogs out hiking, running, or even mushing. Ignore and pass by is key.
> 
> I can't speak for Slam, I hope he comes on to give his opinion, but for working K9s, there may be issues with working through the dog aggression in the typical "rehab" way I've seen where a dog is thrown into a pen full of other dogs with handlers carrying whips or prods or whatever to correct aggression and prevent a fight. The dog shuts down and then starts opening up and playing, usually. I'd guess this would disempower a police k9, and conflict with their work which involves controlled aggression. And with handler aggression, and other traits some K9s carry, I don't see any reason for it.
> 
> Plus, the K9 needs to work closely with the handler. Letting him be social with other dogs (if he actually was "rehabbed") could be a mistake, if done incorrectly. Better to teach him to ignore other dogs... but curious what Slam says.


I am going to touch on this and my dogs real quickly. 

I do not need my dogs to be social butterflies with other dogs. I do not go to dog parks and I do not have "play dates" with friends dogs. 

I currently have on dog aggressive dog, Boomer. He is my Patrol / Narcotics K-9. He is rather dog aggressive and dominant. I have tried to do some socializing with him years ago in the K-9 school. I think it is awesome if dogs can run and play together. We muzzled our dogs and let them loose together is a large fenced field. 3 of the 5 dogs played like puppies, one avoided all the other dogs. I took Boomer's leash off and released him. He looked, made eye contact and next thing I see is a big ball of legs and fur rolling across the field. He wasn't happy fighting with one dog, he went after all three, and fought with all three. Boomer was banned from the play time after that. 

Boomer is exceptionally clear headed and has incredible focus. I do not allow and I will not tolerate any dog aggression. It is zero tolerance. In the car, he is allowed to bark at people walking by and encouraged to do so. He is not allowed to bark at dogs that he sees in the street. He is also not allowed to bark, growl or posture to dogs we meet while working. If tracking down an alleyway at night and a dog in a yard charges the fence, Boomer must ignore that dog and continue tracking. That is his job, the task at hand and he knows that going off task to bark at a charging dog is unacceptable. 

Obedience is a key factor here. I simply tell Boomer to "watch me" and he will focus on my face and a stray dog can walk right up to him, he will not look at the dog. Sometimes, avoidance can be a good thing. 

I have no desire to "rehab" Boomer and no need to do that. I have no issues managing him and walking through crowds of dogs or people. He finds me far more exciting and interesting than any other dog. 

Boomer has always gotten along with my female GSD's and lets Francesca run all over him. She will take his toys and chicken quarters out of his food bowl. He has no dog aggression with my females. 

For the past month, he has been riding in the car with Boru. Boru, is not dog aggressive and they are in separate crates in the car. Boomer will not even bark at Boru in the car, and that is hard for him. I simply do not tolerate it and I will correct it instantly and consistently. 

I am not one that thinks all dogs have to get along. I am also not one to go to dog parks. With my other dog aggressive dogs, I took responsibility for their behavior in public. I never got worried about dogs, or people with flexi leashes on their dogs, or stray dogs. I control my dogs and my my dogs are under my control. If I had a dog that I couldn't control or was out of control, I wouldn't take it off my property. 

No flooding, rehab or cruel punishment, just old fashioned obedience and consistency. Rewards for correct behavior and consequences for disobedience. There are a lot of dog aggressive dogs doing sports and none have issues while training or competing. 

As far as the rest of this thread goes, I think I am finished. I just wanted to respond to those that asked about my dogs.


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## Stonevintage

This is the leash law in the area where Summer lives. It is very typical of the laws in most populated areas of the USA.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> It's actually not a law everywhere. And even where there is a leash law, like Ohio, it allows for dogs who are under control of a responsible person. So you have demonstrate that you are in control of the dog, you do not necessarily have to have the dog leashed to you at every moment.


I don't think ours allow for off leash at all, except in a designated off leash area. My city specifies "effectively restrained by leash." It is also against city ordinance to leave the dog unattended in public even if leashed or tied. The neighboring city goes so far as to say the dog must be restrained by leash no more than six feet long.

The obvious exception is a fenced yard, but without a fence, your dog must be on leash if the property is adjacent to a street or other public space.


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## car2ner

those laws are stricter than outs here in Maryland. It is a good idea to know the exact rules of your state and county. Even local parks have different rules. Some have a strict six foot leash rule, some have designated pet areas, some allow common sense to be the rule. 

It is better to err on the side of caution. If trouble comes, the off leash dog get blamed if it goes to court.


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## Stonevintage

Here there are no dogs allowed in any of the City Parks. The City built and maintains two dog parks for people though. One is new and really nice. Adjacent our new 7 million dollar city park and right on the lake front. In many areas where you have a large influx of tourists, it seems their code is pretty strict.


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## WateryTart

Stonevintage said:


> Here there are no dogs allowed in any of the City Parks. The City built and maintains two dog parks for people though. One is new and really nice. Adjacent our new 7 million dollar city park and right on the lake front. In many areas where you have a large influx of tourists, it seems their code is pretty strict.


That seems very strict.

I can bring my dog into any public park I want, with the exception of certain beach space. She just has to be on leash. And I prefer it that way, because lake trails would be totally off limits if the Parks Board barred dogs from all city park space.


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## selzer

This is Ohio's leash law from the Ohio Revised Code:

955.22 Confining, restraining, debarking dogs; dangerous dog registration certificate.


(A) As used in this section, "dangerous dog" has the same meaning as in section 955.11 of the Revised Code. 
*(B)** No owner, keeper, or harborer of any female dog shall permit it to go beyond the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer at any time the dog is in heat unless the dog is properly in leash. *


*(C)** Except when a dog is lawfully engaged in hunting and accompanied by the owner, keeper, harborer, or handler of the dog, no owner, keeper, or harborer of any dog shall fail at any time to do either of the following:* 
*(1)** Keep the dog physically confined or restrained upon the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer by a leash, tether, adequate fence, supervision, or secure enclosure to prevent escape; *

*(2)** Keep the dog under the reasonable control of some person.* 



(D) Except when a dangerous dog is lawfully engaged in hunting or training for the purpose of hunting and is accompanied by the owner, keeper, harborer, or handler of the dog, no owner, keeper, or harborer of a dangerous dog shall fail to do either of the following: (1) While that dog is on the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer, securely confine it at all times in a locked pen that has a top, locked fenced yard, or other locked enclosure that has a top; 

(2) While that dog is off the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer, keep that dog on a chain-link leash or tether that is not more than six feet in length and additionally do at least one of the following: (a) Keep that dog in a locked pen that has a top, locked fenced yard, or other locked enclosure that has a top; 
(b) Have the leash or tether controlled by a person who is of suitable age and discretion or securely attach, tie, or affix the leash or tether to the ground or a stationary object or fixture so that the dog is adequately restrained and station such a person in close enough proximity to that dog so as to prevent it from causing injury to any person; 
(c) Muzzle that dog. 



(E) No person who has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to three or more violations of division (C) of this section involving the same dog and no owner, keeper, or harborer of a dangerous dog shall fail to do the following: (1) Obtain liability insurance with an insurer authorized to write liability insurance in this state providing coverage in each occurrence because of damage or bodily injury to or death of a person caused by the dangerous dog if so ordered by a court and provide proof of that liability insurance upon request to any law enforcement officer, county dog warden, or public health official charged with enforcing this section; 
(2) Obtain a dangerous dog registration certificate from the county auditor pursuant to division (I) of this section, affix a tag that identifies the dog as a dangerous dog to the dog's collar, and ensure that the dog wears the collar and tag at all times; 

(3) Notify the local dog warden immediately if any of the following occurs: (a) The dog is loose or unconfined. 
(b) The dog bites a person, unless the dog is on the property of the owner of the dog, and the person who is bitten is unlawfully trespassing or committing a criminal act within the boundaries of that property. 
(c) The dog attacks another animal while the dog is off the property of the owner of the dog. 

(4) If the dog is sold, given to another person, or dies, notify the county auditor within ten days of the sale, transfer, or death. 


(F) No person shall do any of the following: (1) Debark or surgically silence a dog that the person knows or has reason to believe is a dangerous dog; 
(2) Possess a dangerous dog if the person knows or has reason to believe that the dog has been debarked or surgically silenced; 
(3) Falsely attest on a waiver form provided by the veterinarian under division (G) of this section that the person's dog is not a dangerous dog or otherwise provide false information on that written waiver form. 


(G) Before a veterinarian debarks or surgically silences a dog, the veterinarian may give the owner of the dog a written waiver form that attests that the dog is not a dangerous dog. The written waiver form shall include all of the following: (1) The veterinarian's license number and current business address; 
(2) The number of the license of the dog if the dog is licensed; 
(3) A reasonable description of the age, coloring, and gender of the dog as well as any notable markings on the dog; 
(4) The signature of the owner of the dog attesting that the owner's dog is not a dangerous dog; 

(5) A statement that division (F) of section 955.22 of the Revised Code prohibits any person from doing any of the following: (a) Debarking or surgically silencing a dog that the person knows or has reason to believe is a dangerous dog; 
(b) Possessing a dangerous dog if the person knows or has reason to believe that the dog has been debarked or surgically silenced; 
(c) Falsely attesting on a waiver form provided by the veterinarian under division (G) of section 955.22 of the Revised Code that the person's dog is not a dangerous dog or otherwise provide false information on that written waiver form. 


(H) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of a violation of division (F) of this section that the veterinarian who is charged with the violation obtained, prior to debarking or surgically silencing the dog, a written waiver form that complies with division (G) of this section and that attests that the dog is not a dangerous dog. 

(I) 
(1) The county auditor shall issue a dangerous dog registration certificate to a person who is the owner of a dog, who is eighteen years of age or older, and who provides the following to the county auditor: (a) A fee of fifty dollars; 
(b) The person's address, phone number, and other appropriate means for the local dog warden or county auditor to contact the person; 

(c) With respect to the person and the dog for which the registration is sought, all of the following: (i) Either satisfactory evidence of the dog's current rabies vaccination or a statement from a licensed veterinarian that a rabies vaccination is medically contraindicated for the dog; 
(ii) Either satisfactory evidence of the fact that the dog has been neutered or spayed or a statement from a licensed veterinarian that neutering or spaying of the dog is medically contraindicated; 
(iii) Satisfactory evidence of the fact that the person has posted and will continue to post clearly visible signs at the person's residence warning both minors and adults of the presence of a dangerous dog on the property; 
(iv) Satisfactory evidence of the fact that the dog has been permanently identified by means of a microchip and the dog's microchip number. 


(2) Upon the issuance of a dangerous dog registration certificate to the owner of a dog, the county auditor shall provide the owner with a uniformly designed tag that identifies the animal as a dangerous dog. The owner shall renew the certificate annually for the same fee and in the same manner as the initial certificate was obtained. If a certificate holder relocates to a new county, the certificate holder shall follow the procedure in division (I)(3)(b) of this section and, upon the expiration of the certificate issued in the original county, shall renew the certificate in the new county. 

(3) (a) If the owner of a dangerous dog for whom a registration certificate has previously been obtained relocates to a new address within the same county, the owner shall provide notice of the new address to the county auditor within ten days of relocating to the new address. 

(b) If the owner of a dangerous dog for whom a registration certificate has previously been obtained relocates to a new address within another county, the owner shall do both of the following within ten days of relocating to the new address: (i) Provide written notice of the new address and a copy of the original dangerous dog registration certificate to the county auditor of the new county; 
(ii) Provide written notice of the new address to the county auditor of the county where the owner previously resided. 


(4) The owner of a dangerous dog shall present the dangerous dog registration certificate upon being requested to do so by any law enforcement officer, dog warden, or public health official charged with enforcing this section. 
(5) The fees collected pursuant to this division shall be deposited in the dog and kennel fund of the county. 

Amended by 129th General AssemblyFile No.75, HB 14, §1, eff. 5/22/2012. 
Effective Date: 10-10-2000 

I bolded the pertinent stuff, the rest is specific to dogs deemed dangerous. I like our leash law because it has wiggle room, and I feel perfectly comfortable training my dogs in public without a leash.

However, localities like Cleveland, can have their own ordinances -- found that out when working with Babs in Cleveland, and had a slight run in with the police -- not about the leash, but about her being in the SUV, crated, with the back up and the windows down on a 50 degree day. So, I wouldn't even take her to pee on the little patch of grass in front of my sister's building without a leash on. Instead, I drove into the lot, and then I was on private property and the police had nothing to say about her lack of constraint. 

And, one day, I was letting her ride along next to my bicycle, perfect heel position, to the park with my sister's girls, when some yayhoo who couldn't control his own dog, leash or not was telling me that what I was doing was dangerous, and illegal. I snapped the leash on her to make him happy -- I do not know the local ordinances for Seven Hills, Ohio. But going by the Ohio Revised Code, I was totally legal.


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## Stonevintage

We have a waterfront hiking trail hill extending out of our city park. There's about 300 acres out there. To the right of the park, along the river there are beaches. In both those places you can have dogs but they must be on a leash. They're just not allowed in the parks where there's lots of people congestion.


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## selzer

We have a few state parks where you could hike, but all the state parks have their own leash laws, and they are pretty explicit. We know we are not welcome. And none of the beaches in Ashtabula County allow dogs.


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## WateryTart

This is frustrating because I can't find a statewide leash law in the MN statutes. So I'm not sure of the requirements unless the dog is at an outdoor cafe, or is deemed dangerous.

My city prohibits a dog in heat to be off the owner's property, period. So even if she's on leash, she can't leave my yard. (This is about 90% of why she was spayed.)


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## SuperG

I'm fairly certain my dog isn't allowed to go down the slides at the water parks....she's a natural at going down the kiddie slide at the local park and spins the heck out of those big giant plastic tic-tac-toe gizmos at the playgrounds as well...to think I've wasted all that training......


SuperG


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree that dogs with DA that was brought on by environment would be much easier to address and would result in a higher success rate. My questions are more geared toward dogs with a genetic propensity.


It would depend on a case by case basis. Also the skill of the handler is a big factor. If you put a strong smart handler with a dog that really wants to fight and the handler really reads the dog well and sufficiently shuts it down at all the right times and really wants to make it work they can generally make it happen. 

On the flip side you have a slightly edgy dog with a clueless idiot wanting to play candy crush on their phone at the dogpark rather than watch whats going on you will have a fight waiting to happen. The success or failure of 99.9% of dogs out there has more to do with the handler than the dog itself.

There are going to be easier dogs and harder dogs but really the person in charge is the biggest factor in the end.


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## llombardo

So if a dog is in heat and gets out and gets pregnant, can there be a fine? This is not for people that breed dogs but for all those that are not responsible. Why put that in as part of the leash law? I'm not seeing the point in that unless they will enforce that.


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## selzer

llombardo said:


> So if a dog is in heat and gets out and gets pregnant, can there be a fine? This is not for people that breed dogs but for all those that are not responsible. Why put that in as part of the leash law? I'm not seeing the point in that unless they will enforce that.


Are you asking me why the government would make laws they have no intention of ever enforcing? No clue. Never could understand that.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Regardless, laws are laws, right?


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## Chip18

Laws are boring I'll wait till the topic changes again.


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## voodoolamb

Chip18 said:


> Laws are boring I'll wait till the topic changes again.


How 'bout them mets?


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## Chip18

voodoolamb said:


> How 'bout them mets?


:laugh2:


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## selzer

How 'bout them cav's???


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## Stonevintage

Topics the same.... Why haven't I ever seen you guys start your own posts & topics?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> It would depend on a case by case basis. Also the skill of the handler is a big factor. If you put a strong smart handler with a dog that really wants to fight and the handler really reads the dog well and sufficiently shuts it down at all the right times and really wants to make it work they can generally make it happen.
> 
> On the flip side you have a slightly edgy dog with a clueless idiot wanting to play candy crush on their phone at the dogpark rather than watch whats going on you will have a fight waiting to happen. The success or failure of 99.9% of dogs out there has more to do with the handler than the dog itself.
> 
> There are going to be easier dogs and harder dogs but really the person in charge is the biggest factor in the end.


Too bad Jim has left the thread, I don't blame him. 

One thing in his parting post that he did not address was the possible stress associated with a DA dog following training vs a DA dog that has been "cured" doing the same and working / training around other dogs. That is if he believed that DA could be "cured". 

What are your thoughts on the concept?


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## voodoolamb

Stonevintage said:


> Topics the same.... Why haven't I ever seen you guys start your own posts & topics?


Sorry stone. I saw the opportunity to be a smart Alec and couldn't resist


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too bad Jim has left the thread, I don't blame him.
> 
> One thing in his parting post that he did not address was the possible stress associated with a DA dog following training vs a DA dog that has been "cured" doing the same and working / training around other dogs. That is if he believed that DA could be "cured".
> 
> What are your thoughts on the concept?


Not sure I understand the question. Rephrase?


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Regardless, laws are laws, right?


Ok, I'll bite. 

Laws are, well, guidelines. Think of them as hints -- I wouldn't do that if I were you. 

But the law is usually written with some wiggle room in it. Ok, stop signs are not stop suggestions, but if there are six big dudes with ball bats at that stop sign, I'm not stopping. I'm going to take my chances with the ticket.


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## Stonevintage

I think that leash laws should be enforced wherever they exist. I hope that every dog owner, when they see a stray in their area - snap a quick picture with there phone. Note the address if its a repeat offender in your neighborhood and email or send the photo, area or address into your animal control or PD.

There's only one way we can make LE do their job on this and that's to make the extra effort to call it in. If we all do this - they will pay attention. 

Please help get the owners that repetitively let their dogs run at large out of our neighborhoods.:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> Not sure I understand the question. Rephrase?


It would seem to me that a dog that is DA would be under some type of stress while working or training, assuming it was already trained, evoked by not being able to aggress with the other dog, such as when Jim's dogs are in carriers together in his vehicle and Boomer is not permitted to act out. 

But if Jim were to "cure" / "rehab" his dog into a dog park mentality dogs (which we know he does not need or want for his purposes), but then teach neutrality, wouldn't he then have a dog that is less stressed, such as when crated in the same vehicle situation?

In essence, isn't Boomer, who is extremely DA, stressed when crated in the same vehicle as Boru? Would not Boru, who is not DA, be functioning other less stress in the same situation? Wouldn't Boru's state at that particular time be more desirable in general?


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> Ok, I'll bite.
> 
> Laws are, well, guidelines. Think of them as hints -- I wouldn't do that if I were you.
> 
> But the law is usually written with some wiggle room in it. Ok, stop signs are not stop suggestions, but if there are six big dudes with ball bats at that stop sign, I'm not stopping. I'm going to take my chances with the ticket.


Agreed Sue, the laws are guidelines, not absolutes.


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## Slamdunc

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too bad Jim has left the thread, I don't blame him.
> 
> One thing in his parting post that he did not address was the possible stress associated with a DA dog following training vs a DA dog that has been "cured" doing the same and working / training around other dogs. That is if he believed that DA could be "cured".
> 
> What are your thoughts on the concept?


MAW, disobedience can be stressful. I'm not going to worry too much about the stress involved unless the dog needs some serious corrections. Making a dog focus on me is not stressful. Making a dog sit or down shouldn't be stressful. Giving the dog something that it can do, will be rewarded for and is successful at as opposed to being hammered for dog aggression is not stressful. 

I can work any of my dogs around other dogs, but I doubt Boomer is "cured." He is just well behaved, under control and obedient. 

I have no experience with dogs that have been "cured" of dog aggression, only dogs that are manageable.


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## Stonevintage

Maybe that's what Major's mom's owner thought last week.


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> Maybe that's what Major's mom's owner thought last week.


Could you clarify that? I'm not sure I understand the comparison?


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## Stonevintage

Some very basic laws are based on very basic concepts. Some basic concepts shouldn't have to have laws to support them. When they are transgressed, the judges and insurance companies fill that gap. But, people who want to do as they want - will often look past these simple rules, thinking "it can never happen to me"..... until it does.


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## selzer

I dunno. 

Stop signs mean stop in Oh, PA, Fl, etc. 

On the other hand, the leash law is different in a lot of states, different provisions, different wording. What is lawful here, may not be lawful where you are. Is common sense different between the two places? 

And you do not have to take a test on dog laws before obtaining a license like you do with driving. You just pay the money and voila you are an expert. You maybe get a list of rules, and maybe not. Done. So you have to go look for the Code and lots of non-dog-people just aren't going to do that. 

So, yes and no. The law is the law, but there is a lot of gray or grey area.


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> I think that leash laws should be enforced wherever they exist. I hope that every dog owner, when they see a stray in their area - snap a quick picture with there phone. Note the address if its a repeat offender in your neighborhood and email or send the photo, area or address into your animal control or PD.
> 
> There's only one way we can make LE do their job on this and that's to make the extra effort to call it in. If we all do this - they will pay attention.
> 
> Please help get the owners that repetitively let their dogs run at large out of our neighborhoods.:smile2:


Oh fine then back on point ... for me, despite the number of encounters Rocky and I have had and the first was under full observation of LE by the way, happened at the Dayton Sub Station ... caused by two door dashing dogs.

By and large the vast majority of dogs that we encounter bolt from thru or past their owners from the dog's property! So I know where those guys live, no need for pictures. 

I protect my guys and mumble/shout "Control Your Freaking Dog" after the "situation is handled" and off we go. As long as my dogs don't get "hit" ... I'm good. 

Don't really want to do the "Law thing" but out here there is limited LE involvement. They foist it off unto AC and those guys are pretty useless. 

I suppose if there is actual Human injury involvement it would be a bit different?? And most likely that (Human) would be me?? But by and large I don't care as long as my dogs don't get hurt it's all good. :grin2:

The A-hole whose dogs made me slip and fall on the ice should be grateful for (my no LE involvement) ... just saying. :smile2: 

Oh yet another tip for others ... don't wear bedroom slippers in snow and ice when walking your dogs in the winter ... who knew???


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> I dunno.
> 
> Stop signs mean stop in Oh, PA, Fl, etc.
> 
> On the other hand, the leash law is different in a lot of states, different provisions, different wording. What is lawful here, may not be lawful where you are. Is common sense different between the two places?
> 
> And you do not have to take a test on dog laws before obtaining a license like you do with driving. You just pay the money and voila you are an expert. You maybe get a list of rules, and maybe not. Done. So you have to go look for the Code and lots of non-dog-people just aren't going to do that.
> 
> So, yes and no. The law is the law, but there is a lot of gray or grey area.


The gray areas are what separate us and what we perceive is ok(JQP) -to fudge on with a law) from the insurance companies and the law's perspective it's a different story when po happens they are the players. There is such a thing as "case law" that falls into place and also "the lay of the land law" which very nicely covers fudgers trying to skirt the law.

Regardless - very few, unless they have loads of $$$$ skirt the intention of the law when they are nailed. How we conduct ourselves as adults based on morals, values and the law of our land are very much present with a judge or jury. 

Here is a new law passed by Idaho voters which went into effect 2 weeks ago; It is now legal to conceal carry ANYWHERE in the state.

Some people wanted this, some saw it as a problem. 

Here in rebellious little Idaho, people don't want anything to do with the government, laws, immigration, hunting regulations or any other ways to control THEIR STATE. They want to do as they want to do.

So, two days ago, a 21 year & 2 month! girl is at my friends bar and has a little too much to drink. She's perfectly legal to have the 9mm in her purse in the bar. She walks out to her car to turn the key and instead walks head on into the adjoining parked car and is down. The people outside called LE because when she went down the 9mm fell out of her purse and was laying next to her in the little puddle of blood.

Idaho NEVER prosecutes for a bar over serving. It's "not a popular law". See where we'll be in a year?

Though inattentive driving via cell phone use causes deaths here every year, no citations are issued because "it's not a popular law".

Our local dog law, though it sounds strict, there are people here with 12 or more citations for dog at large, but the city has not in 14 years hired anyone to collect on these citation fees - so parking tickets are torn up as are dog at large citations.

So, what are we left with when the laws are not obeyed or are intentionally taken advantage of? We think we fudge and skirt them just a bit - but it can all add up to be a stupid mess.


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## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> I protect my guys and mumble/shout "Control Your Freaking Dog" after the "situation is handled" and off we go. As long as my dogs don't get "hit" ... I'm good.
> 
> Don't really want to do the "Law thing" but out here there is limited LE involvement. They foist it off unto AC and those guys are pretty useless.


I think this happens thousands of times a day and we shrug it - so LE does too....


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## Slamdunc

Animal Control is the one to handle stray dogs. When I worked in Uniform Patrol I would stop and bring strays home if they had a collar. The overwhelming majority were not aggressive. In reality, I see very few stray dogs. Our animal control Officers respond out and handle the ones that are called in. 

The fact is we as LEO's, have far more serious things to deal with than stray dogs. My time is spent on running cars for dope and getting guns, responding to robberies, burglaries, missing persons, fleeing felons and Officer Safety calls. This week in two days, Boomer's alerts on traffic stops have gotten Heroin, Crack, marijuana and wanted felons with firearms. Two guns since Monday and I assisted with about 10 - 12 felony arrests. One gun was tossed out of a car and run over as the suspect attempted to elude Officers literally driving through woods and briars and bramble. He wrapped a chain link fence around his car. Buried under the car was his handgun that he tossed out. After Boomer alerted to the fender, brush and bramble, two of us searched after the car was towed out for about 15 minutes in the super thick brush and couldn't find anything. I brought Boomer out again and he alerted to the exact spot where the gun was from the other side of the fence. When the car hit the fence the gun was wedged and buried under the fence in the briars, thorns and bramble. The driver was a convicted felon, had dope and fled because he had the gun. That is what I spend most of my time doing at work, not stray dogs. Stray dogs are really an AC problem, unless they are vicious then I will assist.


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## viking

Stonevintage said:


> I think this happens thousands of times a day and we shrug it - so LE does too....


Maybe everybody is shrugging it because there are serious, more pressing needs? Taking the pic and complaint that started this whole thread as an example . . . who could blame them? (LE, AC or whoever)


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> *Stray dogs are really an AC problem, unless they are vicious then I will assist.*


Sooo ... while not a stray, the "Pit Derivative" that Rocky smiled at and stopped, did *personally offend me!* But I suppose ... what you are saying is that being "personally offended" by the dogs of the "ignorant" does not make it a LE situation?? Sooo no 911 call, ... "Dayton" is a small town, if people aren't out there on Hwy 50 crashing and hitting horses.  

I don't think LE is that busy out here?? >


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## Stonevintage

Slamdunc said:


> Animal Control is the one to handle stray dogs. When I worked in Uniform Patrol I would stop and bring strays home if they had a collar. The overwhelming majority were not aggressive. In reality, I see very few stray dogs. Our animal control Officers respond out and handle the ones that are called in.
> 
> The fact is we as LEO's, have far more serious things to deal with than stray dogs. My time is spent on running cars for dope and getting guns, responding to robberies, burglaries, missing persons, fleeing felons and Officer Safety calls. This week in two days, Boomer's alerts on traffic stops have gotten Heroin, Crack, marijuana and wanted felons with firearms. Two guns since Monday and I assisted with about 10 - 12 felony arrests. One gun was tossed out of a car and run over as the suspect attempted to elude Officers literally driving through woods and briars and bramble. He wrapped a chain link fence around his car. Buried under the car was his handgun that he tossed out. After Boomer alerted to the fender, brush and bramble, two of us searched after the car was towed out for about 15 minutes in the super thick brush and couldn't find anything. I brought Boomer out again and he alerted to the exact spot where the gun was from the other side of the fence. When the car hit the fence the gun was wedged and buried under the fence in the briars, thorns and bramble. The driver was a convicted felon, had dope and fled because he had the gun. That is what I spend most of my time doing at work, not stray dogs. Stray dogs are really an AC problem, unless they are vicious then I will assist.


Here, AC only works M-F 9-5... otherwise, it's all LE and they have the time except they get tight in July & August. Even they say the taxpayers of the city fund them well. If the dispatcher takes an AC nature complaint and they have something that comes up of higher priority - someone from the PD just calls you back and say the response will be delayed. But, they always follow up if you've given them a trouble address. But we're just a small city (little over 45,000).


----------



## Stonevintage

viking said:


> Maybe everybody is shrugging it because there are serious, more pressing needs? Taking the pic and complaint that started this whole thread as an example . . . who could blame them? (LE, AC or whoever)


Poor Viking.... why do you drag yourself thru posts you loathe:wink2: so much? Give yourself a break and move on.


----------



## viking

Stonevintage said:


> Poor Viking.... why do you drag yourself thru posts you loathe:wink2: so much? Give yourself a break and move on.


That's weird.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

viking said:


> That's weird.


:thinking:


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> It's actually not a law everywhere. And even where there is a leash law, like Ohio, it allows for dogs who are under control of a responsible person. So you have demonstrate that you are in control of the dog, you do not necessarily have to have the dog leashed to you at every moment.
> 
> So if I heeled my dog down the street and she stayed at my side in heel position, then she is under control. If I open my front door and say, Go Potty, and bring her in an hour later -- that wouldn't qualify, unless there was no way for her to leave the yard.


You missed that I said leashed/controlled.


----------



## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It would seem to me that a dog that is DA would be under some type of stress while working or training, assuming it was already trained, evoked by not being able to aggress with the other dog, such as when Jim's dogs are in carriers together in his vehicle and Boomer is not permitted to act out.
> 
> But if Jim were to "cure" / "rehab" his dog into a dog park mentality dogs (which we know he does not need or want for his purposes), but then teach neutrality, wouldn't he then have a dog that is less stressed, such as when crated in the same vehicle situation?
> 
> In essence, isn't Boomer, who is extremely DA, stressed when crated in the same vehicle as Boru? Would not Boru, who is not DA, be functioning other less stress in the same situation? Wouldn't Boru's state at that particular time be more desirable in general?


What generally happens, at least in my experience is that a dog starts of still stressed but that feeling dissipates.

A dog that is DA or leash reactive originally felt a certain feeling be it fear or frustration or anger which you could equate to stress. It was that feeling that initially caused the dog to take the actions it did in an attempt to alleviate that stress (the barking the growling the lunging or the fighting).

When you're punishing that action you suppress it and block it. For many dogs the feeling can still be there but because they are not allowed to explode into it the feeling is significantly dissipated. It's similar to if someone were to get into an argument with their significant other. If they were blocked from cursing yelling screaming and throwing dishes they can still be angry but much less so than if they are allowed to express that anger violently.

Patterns of aggression/leash reactivity occur when through repeated exposure the dog is successful at achieving comfort through the actions it took. How does that happen? Dog sees person walking dog too close or dog getting too close while it is leashed and it goes nuts and the dog gets distance from the other dog either because the dog was going to leave anyway or the handler pulls the dog away from the dog in order to get distance so the dog chills out. This is essentially negative reinforcing the dog to act like an idiot. 

This happens enough times and it becomes an operant behavior. It was learned to be effective through consequence. It also becomes the thing to do when exposed to similar pictures EVEN IF THE FEELING THAT CAUSED THE PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR TO OCCUR IN THE FIRST PLACE IS NO LONGER PRESENT.

So really what needs to happen is the aggression needs to be punished and because comfort eventually gets achieved anyway and they see pictures where not only does aggression achieve undesirable results and not get distance like before, but the act of doing nothing is what gets the best result they stop the aggression. Then what they discover assuming the dog isn't attacked is that it was completely unnecessary to act like that in the first place and they are able to counter condition that initial feeling that kicked it all off in the first place at close distances without having to worry about the dog freaking out because that is suppressed. You can then work on making it a positive experience and work on lessening or eliminating the feeling that started it all. It is not possible without the elimination of the aggressive behavior unless it hasn't already become an operant response. It usually has become an operant response before the dog sees a trainer like me though.


----------



## Jiffylush

selzer said:


> This is Ohio's leash law from the Ohio Revised Code:
> 
> snip


State laws tend to be a lot more open than the laws of individual municipalities.

In Charlotte your dog can be off leash in a dog park or in your front yard if an adult is "immediately next to the animal" and that is it. Being next to your well behaved dog that is off leash while holding it's leash is enough to get you fined.

The state of North Carolina is completely different and it seems that the only law is that you can't let your adult dog run at large in the nighttime.

In the case of the OP I would assume she there are laws other than just the state's that apply.


----------



## WateryTart

Jiffylush said:


> State laws tend to be a lot more open than the laws of individual municipalities.
> 
> In Charlotte your dog can be off leash in a dog park or in your front yard if an adult is "immediately next to the animal" and that is it. Being next to your well behaved dog that is off leash while holding it's leash is enough to get you fined.
> 
> The state of North Carolina is completely different and it seems that the only law is that you can't let your adult dog run at large in the nighttime.
> 
> In the case of the OP I would assume she there are laws other than just the state's that apply.


That sounds like the law here: Stricter municipal codes, more open ended state law.


----------



## WateryTart

llombardo said:


> So if a dog is in heat and gets out and gets pregnant, can there be a fine? This is not for people that breed dogs but for all those that are not responsible. Why put that in as part of the leash law? I'm not seeing the point in that unless they will enforce that.


In my city, the ordinances don't mention one:

*64.60. - Dogs and cats in heat. *
No person having the custody or control of any female dog or cat shall permit the same to be in any street, alley, or public place while it is in heat, but shall keep such animal confined so that it cannot come in contact with another dog or cat whether on public or private property except for breeding purposes within a building. (Code 1960, As Amend., § 810.060; Ord. of 6-13-75, § 2; 86-Or-113, § 5, 5-23-86)

Because I'm a Type A control freak, I read the city code before we got the dog and reviewed it again before she went into season so I knew what was up. If they do exact consequences, I wasn't about to find out. Also, apparently if I were to be a breeder, the dogs cannot get it on in the backyard - literally.


----------



## Slamdunc

Chip18 said:


> Sooo ... while not a stray, the "Pit Derivative" that Rocky smiled at and stopped, did *personally offend me!* But I suppose ... what you are saying is that being "personally offended" by the dogs of the "ignorant" does not make it a LE situation?? Sooo no 911 call, ... "Dayton" is a small town, if people aren't out there on Hwy 50 crashing and hitting horses.
> 
> I don't think LE is that busy out here?? >


I'm not very good with internet sarcasm, which I am guessing the "personally offended" comment was? 

It must be nice to work in a small town where the major problems LE has is loose dogs or horses. I need to look into smaller towns or cities like that. I'm sure I wouldn't know what to do with all my free time, I suppose I could read a book? 

Come to think of it, 50% of juveniles experimenting with drugs live in a large city, I wonder where all the rest live? Hmmm, there would probably still be plenty to do, you just need to know where to look and how to find it. Yea, but I would be to busy chasing the "Flanders" loose dog, "Mahershalalahasbaz," all over the city to do real Police work.


----------



## llombardo

WateryTart said:


> In my city, the ordinances don't mention one:
> 
> *64.60. - Dogs and cats in heat. *
> No person having the custody or control of any female dog or cat shall permit the same to be in any street, alley, or public place while it is in heat, but shall keep such animal confined so that it cannot come in contact with another dog or cat whether on public or private property except for breeding purposes within a building. (Code 1960, As Amend., § 810.060; Ord. of 6-13-75, § 2; 86-Or-113, § 5, 5-23-86)
> 
> Because I'm a Type A control freak, I read the city code before we got the dog and reviewed it again before she went into season so I knew what was up. If they do exact consequences, I wasn't about to find out. Also, apparently if I were to be a breeder, the dogs cannot get it on in the backyard - literally.


I only ask because it seems that if this law was enforced there would a lot less puppies and people would be more responsible.


----------



## Jax08

Slamdunc said:


> . I'm sure I wouldn't know what to do with all my free time, I suppose I could read a book?
> 
> .


I highly recommend knitting.


----------



## WateryTart

llombardo said:


> I only ask because it seems that if this law was enforced there would a lot less puppies and people would be more responsible.


There isn't nearly the same problem here with overpopulation. Not that it doesn't happen, but most people spay and neuter. I got MAJOR MAJOR side eye for even letting my female get to a point at which she went into season.


----------



## Stonevintage

We have 1.5 officers per 1,000 citizens. It's a little different here with LE. We seem to be a mecca for retired LE from So Cal. They keep a close eye on their neighbors and we also have a rather large group of citizen volunteers that do patrol work (eyes only) in their own vehicles (but with LE emblems) and report to LE when they see something going on. 

Our Force has always consisted of very young officers. They normally put in a few years here and make a good name for themselves then transfer to a larger city of their choosing where the pay is better and they can settle into their career.


----------



## MadLab

Baillif, Cheers for your willingness to post this information. All your posts are great. 

Fact is, there is this scientific way of looking at dog behavior, and I think you are really expanding peoples awareness on that. 



> A dog that is DA or leash reactive originally felt a certain feeling be it fear or frustration or anger which you could equate to stress. It was that feeling that initially caused the dog to take the actions it did in an attempt to alleviate that stress (the barking the growling the lunging or the fighting).
> 
> When you're punishing that action you suppress it and block it. For many dogs the feeling can still be there but because they are not allowed to explode into it the feeling is significantly dissipated. It's similar to if someone were to get into an argument with their significant other. If they were blocked from cursing yelling screaming and throwing dishes they can still be angry but much less so than if they are allowed to express that anger violently.
> 
> Patterns of aggression/leash reactivity occur when through repeated exposure the dog is successful at achieving comfort through the actions it took. How does that happen? Dog sees person walking dog too close or dog getting too close while it is leashed and it goes nuts and the dog gets distance from the other dog either because the dog was going to leave anyway or the handler pulls the dog away from the dog in order to get distance so the dog chills out. This is essentially negative reinforcing the dog to act like an idiot.
> 
> This happens enough times and it becomes an operant behavior. It was learned to be effective through consequence. It also becomes the thing to do when exposed to similar pictures EVEN IF THE FEELING THAT CAUSED THE PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR TO OCCUR IN THE FIRST PLACE IS NO LONGER PRESENT.
> 
> So really what needs to happen is the aggression needs to be punished and because comfort eventually gets achieved anyway and they see pictures where not only does aggression achieve undesirable results and not get distance like before, but the act of doing nothing is what gets the best result they stop the aggression. Then what they discover assuming the dog isn't attacked is that it was completely unnecessary to act like that in the first place and they are able to counter condition that initial feeling that kicked it all off in the first place at close distances without having to worry about the dog freaking out because that is suppressed. You can then work on making it a positive experience and work on lessening or eliminating the feeling that started it all. It is not possible without the elimination of the aggressive behavior unless it hasn't already become an operant response. It usually has become an operant response before the dog sees a trainer like me though.


----------



## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> I'm not very good with internet sarcasm, which I am guessing the "personally offended" comment was?
> 
> It must be nice to work in a small town where the major problems LE has is loose dogs or horses. I need to look into smaller towns or cities like that. I'm sure I wouldn't know what to do with all my free time, I suppose I could read a book?
> 
> Come to think of it, 50% of juveniles experimenting with drugs live in a large city, I wonder where all the rest live? Hmmm, there would probably still be plenty to do, you just need to know where to look and how to find it. Yea, but I would be to busy chasing the "Flanders" loose dog, "Mahershalalahasbaz," all over the city to do real Police work.


There you go ...you get it! :grin2:

Out here they retired the Dayton K9 dog, said they need him Carson City takes up the slack. But yeah most likely Meth lab central out here lots of open space.

We actually had a big drug bust right on the corner ... across the street from the Dayton Sub Station!! The corner house was a Meth Lab!!??? 

I had no idea, lots more going on then it actually appears it would seem. 

I actually see more LE presence out here than I did in San Jose Ca! Kinda odd so they are doing something??

The K9 officers show up at the sub station every now and then, AC is on the SUV's so you can't see the Dog's.

For all I know ... they could be "faking it??" Just put K9 on the vehicle and no K9 present?? But ... that sounds more like something I would do not LE. :grin2:

But back to dogs ... no fleas or Mosquitoes out here so there is that. :laugh2:


----------



## Muskeg

Drug problems aren't limited to the cities, sadly. Huge opioid problems here. 

I've always wondered how they'd even know a dog is in heat-- it's not all that obvious. 

How about the same fines for intact male dogs running at large. It takes two to tango.


----------



## Niexist

Yet another fatality from pit bull today.
3-Day-Old Baby Killed by Dog: SDPD | NBC 7 San Diego


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

niexist said:


> yet another fatality from pit bull today.
> 3-day-old baby killed by dog: Sdpd | nbc 7 san diego


omg!


----------



## selzer

Muskeg said:


> Drug problems aren't limited to the cities, sadly. Huge opioid problems here.
> 
> I've always wondered how they'd even know a dog is in heat-- it's not all that obvious.
> 
> How about the same fines for intact male dogs running at large. It takes two to tango.


I think we have enough cops -- largest county (oh), one of the smallest populations. We don't have room in the jail or prisons, so our druggies, well it is just a revolving door, and then they od, and some other kids without much to do start experimenting, and some older people without much to do, or maybe with some pain find heroine. And meth seems to be everywhere and doesn't pick an age group. 

The ODs seem to keep LEOs hopping though. The scanner group seems pretty busy on facebook.


----------



## Stonevintage

This video is the way that I am going to train Summer against DA.

*It's all the basics of what everyone always suggest- however it's more about what isn't there that intrigues me and makes me think it may work for her.
*
There's no praise, no treats, no shock or hanging. No doing a million different things. There are no corrective pops with the prong. THERE IS SIMPLY THE EXPECTATION THAT THE WALK IS GOING TO HAPPEN regardless if a tribe of screaming blue monkey's goes flying past us, we're not breaking our pace - the collar will do it's job but more importantly it helps eliminate distractions for myself and for the dog.
There is only one thing we are doing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WEi9BfTIc


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> This video is the way that I am going to train Summer against DA.
> 
> *It's all the basics of what everyone always suggest- however it's more about what isn't there that intrigues me and makes me think it may work for her.
> *
> There's no praise, no treats, no shock or hanging. No doing a million different things. There are no corrective pops with the prong. THERE IS SIMPLY THE EXPECTATION THAT THE WALK IS GOING TO HAPPEN regardless if a tribe of screaming blue monkey's goes flying past us, we're not breaking our pace - the collar will do it's job but more importantly it helps eliminate distractions for myself and for the dog.
> There is only one thing we are doing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WEi9BfTIc


Well of course it looks good to me.


----------



## carmspack

leash operation very difficult - two ends to master --
much practice needed.


practice without the dog first, add dog once you feel confident
28 photo of 30 for invisible dog leash prank


just kidding


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Well of course it looks good to me.


Jeff says the prong won't increase aggression, but I know of people who use prongs to increase aggression during training. 

It is real easy to say these dogs were aggressive and lunging the day before. I say show me the before and after clips.


----------



## DutchKarin

If you nag a dog with a prong, constant pulling back, constant tension, I think that can increase aggression. Used correctly as a quick, efficient and effective correction after the dog has been trained to what is wanted and then defies that training, that is different.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Jeff says the prong won't increase aggression, but I know of people who use prongs to increase aggression during training.
> 
> It is real easy to say these dogs were aggressive and lunging the day before. I say show me the before and after clips.


Jeff is talking to "Pet People" and dumbing it down for them.

I say a "Prong Collar can put drive into a dog or take drive out of a dog," depends on how it's used." 

By and large JQP has no idea what that means?? So Jeff simple says "the prong won't increase aggression," his audience is JQP and to them a "Prong Collar looks like a torture device! 

And before and after??? Jeff is a pretty choice to direct that statements towards. Periscopes App daily he shows his work, today at 12:36 pm Dog Reactive Dog, Day One Remote Collar Training. 

Anyone that wants to can see his work. Unfortunately "Katch" is closing down. 

But all his "Periscopes" are here for a couple more weeks:
https://katch.me/SolidK9Training

I'm sure he'll come up with something else as an archive?

He has two WL GSD including his new import dog that is a bomb sniffing dog. Both are girls also, I do believe they are on there way to Australia with him on Monday? They weren't on his latest show and I think he did say they were at the airport.


----------



## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> This video is the way that I am going to train Summer against DA.
> 
> *It's all the basics of what everyone always suggest- however it's more about what isn't there that intrigues me and makes me think it may work for her.*
> 
> There's no praise, no treats, no shock or hanging. No doing a million different things. There are no corrective pops with the prong. THERE IS SIMPLY THE EXPECTATION THAT THE WALK IS GOING TO HAPPEN regardless if a tribe of screaming blue monkey's goes flying past us, we're not breaking our pace - the collar will do it's job but more importantly it helps eliminate distractions for myself and for the dog.
> There is only one thing we are doing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8WEi9BfTIc


 
Love it! I know you can do it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Jeff is talking to "Pet People" and dumbing it down for them.
> 
> I say a "Prong Collar can put drive into a dog or take drive out of a dog," depends on how it's used."
> 
> By and large JQP has no idea what that means?? So Jeff simple says "the prong won't increase aggression," his audience is JQP and to them a "Prong Collar looks like a torture device!
> 
> And before and after??? Jeff is a pretty choice to direct that statements towards. Periscopes App daily he shows his work, today at 12:36 pm Dog Reactive Dog, Day One Remote Collar Training.
> 
> Anyone that wants to can see his work. Unfortunately "Katch" is closing down.
> 
> But all his "Periscopes" are here for a couple more weeks:
> https://katch.me/SolidK9Training
> 
> I'm sure he'll come up with something else as an archive?
> 
> He has two WL GSD including his new import dog that is a bomb sniffing dog. Both are girls also, I do believe they are on there way to Australia with him on Monday? They weren't on his latest show and I think he did say they were at the airport.


Normally, I have no problem with him.  It is just time I thought he made some contradictions and he never showed any of the dogs in their before state. Heck, JQP, can make a video like that and make any claim without before clips. 

And it doesn't matter if he addresses JQP, if prongs can ramp up a dog, it will do it for them as well depending on the dog. That can be very dangerous as Slamdunc said in another post.

Just saying I expected better from him.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Normally, I have no problem with him. It is just time I thought he made some contradictions and he never showed any of the dogs in their before state. Heck, JQP, can make a video like that and make any claim without before clips.
> 
> And it doesn't matter if he addresses JQP, if prongs can ramp up a dog, it will do it for them as well depending on the dog. That can be very dangerous as Slamdunc said in another post.
> 
> Just saying I expected better from him.


Well the Prong bit is fair criticism, the bit about only showing the "after dogs" not so much.  

I've seen many many first day arrival dogs. The "Periscope" clips are "live" broadcast. And those are done by him and Sean (The Good Dog) daily. 

The Prong thing "Nope. I've not heard him say what I stated?? For that matter I'am not sure where I know it from?? At any rate "none" of the Trainers posting there work mention the "Can put drive into a dog thing??" The ones I know of Tylor Muto, Jeff and Sean O'shea and TheGoodDogGuy (I post his work on occasion also but can't remember his name??) All post there work but make no mention of the two edged nature of a "Prong." 

But they all make up for it for it by "showing people how a Prong is used correctly" as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. 

Still ... I'll have to conclude that Jeff and Sean must have observed enough "Eyes on fails" that, they started to say "Screw it and started to recommend the "Pet Convincer" to clients that still could not get it right. As "I" say the "Pet Convincer" takes how to deliver a proper correction off the table. 

But by and large people desperate enough to pay those guys rates don't really care, about "nuances" and Jeff works with the worst of the worst (dogs). And he and the others give there work away for free to those that do want to DIY there dogs. I just point them out


----------



## Stonevintage

I did read that it could be a problem by putting drive into a dog. However, Summer is used to the prong. She's been trained by the prong. She will do prolonged sit or lay down in the middle of the sidewalk at any point in time and this was trained by the prong. 

I would think that a trainer introducing the prong for the first time and putting the dog in stressor situations would have more likely hood in seeing it increase drive in some dogs than one that is very comfortable with it and has been trained on it .

When I played it back the second time - I focused on the dog when they were making the 2nd pass past the AD behind the fence - when the dog looked the most stressed - within that few seconds his dog made eye contact with him three times in rapid succession because he was about to lose it and that held him together. You can't stage that... 

It's very possible the meet up with the two Pitts was staged and that they were not DA ever. But that's a situation I will never put my dog in....


----------



## Dainerra

Spectrum said:


> Agreed, I have a medium sized back yard, that's approximately 40x60ft long. About 20 minutes a day is all both my dogs need to be completely wasted.
> 
> 
> Pitbulls are 'image' dogs, just the way Golden Retrievers are. I by no means believe that Pit Bulls are gentle giants, and even though I own a pit bull, I understand that all bigger breeds have the potential to really cause damage if not managed properly. .


see, this is part of the problem. Pit bulls are definitely not "giants" or even large. They should be in the 35-40 lb range. 
Those big dogs that you see people going on about their "pit bull" are mastiff mixes, Cane Corso, and other breeds. 

Yes, all terriers are supposed to be "game" I've been at more than one dog show watching them spar off 2 jack russells in the ring to showcase the attitude expected of terriers.


----------



## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My main problem with Pit Bulls is not the dog aggression. I really don't care if they start fights or attack people. My problem is that they latch on and don't let go. There was a recent Pit Bull attack where SIX adults could not remove the attacking Pit Bull from its victim. That is my problem. If six adults can't handle a Pit, how can any one single, inexperienced person keep others safe when out in public? Look at the therapy Pit Bull video I posted earlier, this is the rule, not the exception.


knowing how to use a break stick and how to break up a dog fight are honestly things that every dog owner should know how to do.

The won't let go thing is a trait for all terriers and even many individuals of other breeds. 
I know plenty of dog owners who couldn't break up a fight between 2 chihuahuas if the dogs were serious about it.


----------



## Dainerra

Stonevintage said:


> I can't really see much of a comparison there as to what happened with the other breeds in the past. If I recall correctly - I never remember the GSD having as bad a rep. This because there were so many performing seeing eye, police and military work. They represented a positive image to the public in their performance and people had to acknowledge that as it was right their in front of their faces daily. The Rott and the Dobi were always fairly pricey breeds to own and the owners didn't let them stray much. Most of the problems happened with assigning guard dog duties without care of proper training.
> 
> I.


there are plenty of GSDs to be purchased for cheap. And since most dogs sold as pits are mixes. I can look in my paper and find all 4 breeds right now for less than $100.

GSDs had just as bad a rap but it was more regional. Same for rotts and dobes. Back then, there wasn't the media play that there is now. 
And that can cut both ways. First, it makes us feel that more things are happening since there is coverage from all over the state and world. And second, it sparks the interest of those who want dogs that have that reputation.


----------



## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Rotts are not a close second to Pits in maulings and fatalities but a far distant second.
> 
> The only LGDs I know that were kept as pets were pet quality pups from Great Pyr showlines, none were dog aggressive. We have a rather large Pyr rescue near me and I have met a lot of their dogs, none of which were DA and are routinely brought to dog parks without issue.


dogs that actually work as LGD? I know dozens of them that kill any dog that wanders into their property. If not properly contained,they will kill any strange dog they encounter in what they consider "their" area.

It's what they are bred to do. Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherds, Maremars and similar are what most people I know have. Or some mix of those. GSDs are also a common dog or mix used though they don't work quite as well as true LGDs because of their desire to work closely with humans.
You don't hear about the number of kills by thees dogs because, unless you are a member of the livestock community, no one talks about it. If you find a dead dog, you either simply bury it or burn it. Or take it out to a deep ravine on your property and burn it.


Like GSDs, many show line LGDs are becoming removed from that natural aggression. And socialization with other dogs is also a big factor in pet homes. LGDs that actually work have bonded with livestock as their pack, not other dogs. So anything that frightens the livestock is going to be attacked.

ETA: most of the people I know who actually use LGDs for livestock average 3-4 dogs a year killed on their property. There may be others that aren't found. And some years there are more. There is no leash law here and SSS is the word of the day when it comes to roaming dogs.


----------



## Stonevintage

Dainerra said:


> GSDs had just as bad a rap but it was more regional. Same for rotts and dobes.


lol. The stats go back thru all the years in question. Not talking bout any media coverage differences.


----------



## Dainerra

Stonevintage said:


> lol. The stats go back thru all the years in question. Not talking bout any media coverage differences.


but media coverage DOES impact those numbers. It's part of the reason that JQP thinks that every dog that has a blocky head and/or a muscular body as a pit. 
I've watched news coverage with actual pictures of the attacking dog, clearly a lab, being called a pit bull. I've seen multiple instances of these type of things. 
I've seen news footage where the headline of the article was "elderly lady injured by pitbull" The actual story of what happened was that she was walking her small dog (don't remember the breed) and it saw the pit and tangled the leash around her feet and pulled her over trying to run across the road. The pit never even crossed the street. Yet it went down in local statistics as an injury by a pit. 

Another factor is that for most things it simply wasn't reported. Goodness knows that where I grew up, unless you were mauled, you weren't going to go to the Dr. You didn't call the police. You walked over to the neighbor's house and said "I see that dog again, I'm putting a bullet in his head" Neighbor said "sorry" and many times would take his own dog out behind the barn and put a bullet in him. 
A dog that showed even the beginning signs of aggression without cause? Same thing. 
Today, people want to save every dog. They want to rehab every dog.
Dog rescued from shelter attacks 3, fatally shot by deputy - | WBTV Charlotte
Today every incident gets reported, even if you get a tooth scratch playing with your own dog. And the media plays the story over and over.


----------



## MadLab

MAWL


> I know of people who use prongs to increase aggression during training.


How can a prong be used to increase aggression?

I thought the point of a prong is to correct a dog and to have more control on leash.


----------



## Stonevintage

Dainerra said:


> but media coverage DOES impact those numbers. It's part of the reason that JQP thinks that every dog that has a blocky head and/or a muscular body as a pit.
> I've watched news coverage with actual pictures of the attacking dog, clearly a lab, being called a pit bull. I've seen multiple instances of these type of things.
> I've seen news footage where the headline of the article was "elderly lady injured by pitbull" The actual story of what happened was that she was walking her small dog (don't remember the breed) and it saw the pit and tangled the leash around her feet and pulled her over trying to run across the road. The pit never even crossed the street. Yet it went down in local statistics as an injury by a pit.
> 
> Another factor is that for most things it simply wasn't reported. Goodness knows that where I grew up, unless you were mauled, you weren't going to go to the Dr. You didn't call the police. You walked over to the neighbor's house and said "I see that dog again, I'm putting a bullet in his head" Neighbor said "sorry" and many times would take his own dog out behind the barn and put a bullet in him.
> A dog that showed even the beginning signs of aggression without cause? Same thing.
> Today, people want to save every dog. They want to rehab every dog.
> Dog rescued from shelter attacks 3, fatally shot by deputy - | WBTV Charlotte
> Today every incident gets reported, even if you get a tooth scratch playing with your own dog. And the media plays the story over and over.


I use the stats. Throw out the highs and lows if you like to accomodate for misidentification - heck cut the # in half for misidentification by LE, hospitals and vets - the story's still the same.


----------



## Dainerra

MadLab said:


> MAWL
> 
> How can a prong be used to increase aggression?
> 
> I thought the point of a prong is to correct a dog and to have more control on leash.


as someone answered above, small nagging "corrections" that annoy the dog without doing anything to actually stop or correct the behavior.


----------



## Dainerra

Stonevintage said:


> I use the stats. Throw out the highs and lows if you like to accomodate for misidentification - heck cut the # in half for misidentification by LE, hospitals and vets - the story's still the same.


you also have to look at percentages. There are easily 5x as many dogs that fit the description of "pit" since it doesn't cover a breed but a body type.
So, categorically speaking, the numbers aren't that much higher.

A better stat was a chart that I saw before (lost the bookmark to it) broke down bite stats by age of victim, socio-economic status, etc. 
The number one cause of dog bites? unattended children interacting with a chained dog in poorer neighborhoods. 
And what is the dog breed of choice currently for poor neighborhoods? Pit bulls.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> knowing how to use a break stick and how to break up a dog fight are honestly things that every dog owner should know how to do.
> 
> The won't let go thing is a trait for all terriers and even many individuals of other breeds.
> I know plenty of dog owners who couldn't break up a fight between 2 chihuahuas if the dogs were serious about it.


Using break sticks to break up a dog fight is recommended for dog fighting breeds only and the experts that I have spoke with do NOT recommend using them on other breeds of dogs.

I do believe that everybody who owns dogs should be know how to break up a dog fight their dogs might become involved in and I have spoken to breeders on this topic and read about it on other German Shepherd forums and although a plethora of methods were suggested, not once did anybody suggest using a break stick on a German Shepherd in a dog fight.

With that said, since break sticks were designed and are expressly recommended for Pit Bulls, then it is the responsibility of those who own that breed to have break sticks in their possession and be knowledgeable in their use. One can't be responsible for everybody else. I don't expect anybody else to retrieve one of my dogs out of any situation, no matter what it may be, I expect the same in return. Barring that, if other people want to play, then I don't want to hear them cry when it is time to pay.


----------



## Muskeg

Just catching up but I did watch the Gellman clip of the nervous malinois. 

I don't like it when trainers like Gellman get on YouTube - and it is always men I see who do this- and they boast "look at me! I can walk this dog that nobody else could handle in two seconds on a prong!" Dog is FIXED! I am the MAN! They seem to have a huge ego trip about it. And they charge something like three month's wages for this service. 

The dog in the video clip has zero connection to the handler (Gellman). Why would it, the dog just met the guy. If there was eye contact it was more like checking in to see what this weird person I don't know is going to do next, rather than checking in to see what this weird person I don't know wants ME to do... two different things. I personally look for the latter where it is a working relationship. 

I've never seen Gellman in videos act as if he LIKES the dogs he is working. 

Gellman says something in the video about the reward for this dog is "going on this awesome walk!". How in the world is that an awesome walk? The dog isn't even getting a chance to look at stuff, or to feel like he is working for and with his handler (something many malinois crave), much less any release time to do doggy things like sniff around or lift a leg on a lamppost. I have no problem with a structured training walk, but don't call that walk in the video an awesome time for the dog. He's not having any fun, clearly. That's fine, I get training is a process, but don't call it fun. And don't call it a reward. 

I have no problem with the quick fix. Reactivity and leash manners are and should be a quick fix- as in basically done in several training session and to off leash in a few weeks or less. The key is timing and level of correction so the dog does not want to practice that undesirable behavior again. This builds understanding, which is also key.

But- and this is huge- the route to that "quick" fix varies a lot depending on the dog and that is where the skill of the trainer actually comes in. Not every dog will just give in to a prong. Some dogs do better with a different tool, some dogs will only work with those they have a relationship with, some dogs do better with an understanding of OB layered in with a known and proofed command, first. As foundation. 

I could go and slap a prong on plenty of dogs that owner's describe as "impossible" and the dog would be heeling and showing good manners instantly, too. That does not mean I'm a master trainer, it just means that dog never was trained by a person who had a clue. 

Gellman, if he tried this with one of my dogs, well, I won't go into details except to say him and my dog would have a serious discussion on who was the MAN. 

Maybe I'm just in a nitpicky mood, but Gellman rubbed me the wrong way in that video, for sure. YES it can be a quick fix, but NO it is not just a matter of slapping a collar on the dog and only giving him 12 inches of leash... unless the dog is really an easy dog to start with, in which case, it's almost a scam to take thousands of dollars.

And he is 100% wrong saying a prong NEVER increases aggression. Are you kidding? Of course it can. Oppositional reflex, even pops can bring a handler aggressive dog right back at you, or increase his aggression toward whatever he's going at. I've seen prongs used during protection work a lot, one of the top decoys I've worked with prefers prongs to a harness or agitation collar and for a good reason. 

Which is why you need to have more tools in your toolbox and a basic understanding of how dogs learn. It's irresponsible to claim a prong never could cause or increase aggression.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> there are plenty of GSDs to be purchased for cheap. And since most dogs sold as pits are mixes. I can look in my paper and find all 4 breeds right now for less than $100.
> 
> GSDs had just as bad a rap but it was more regional. Same for rotts and dobes. Back then, there wasn't the media play that there is now.
> And that can cut both ways. First, it makes us feel that more things are happening since there is coverage from all over the state and world. And second, it sparks the interest of those who want dogs that have that reputation.


That's not accurate at all. German Shepherds, Rotts, Dobes, etc., have never mauled and killed people or pets even remotely close to the numbers as that by Pit Bulls. When you also take into consideration that those breeds are / were very popular during those times vs Pit Bulls today being only 3% of total dogs owned, 6% if you add in Pit mixes / derivatives, the numbers are staggering for a relatively unpopular breed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> dogs that actually work as LGD? I know dozens of them that kill any dog that wanders into their property. If not properly contained,they will kill any strange dog they encounter in what they consider "their" area.
> 
> It's what they are bred to do. Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherds, Maremars and similar are what most people I know have. Or some mix of those. GSDs are also a common dog or mix used though they don't work quite as well as true LGDs because of their desire to work closely with humans.
> You don't hear about the number of kills by thees dogs because, unless you are a member of the livestock community, no one talks about it. If you find a dead dog, you either simply bury it or burn it. Or take it out to a deep ravine on your property and burn it.
> 
> 
> Like GSDs, many show line LGDs are becoming removed from that natural aggression. And socialization with other dogs is also a big factor in pet homes. LGDs that actually work have bonded with livestock as their pack, not other dogs. So anything that frightens the livestock is going to be attacked.
> 
> ETA: most of the people I know who actually use LGDs for livestock average 3-4 dogs a year killed on their property. There may be others that aren't found. And some years there are more. There is no leash law here and SSS is the word of the day when it comes to roaming dogs.


Let me repost my comment: "The only LGDs I know that were kept as pets *were pet quality pups from Great Pyr showlines,* none were dog aggressive. We have a rather large Pyr rescue near me and I have met a lot of their dogs, none of which were DA and are routinely brought to dog parks without issue."

The bolded part, I did state showlines, not working lines.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

MadLab said:


> MAWL
> 
> How can a prong be used to increase aggression?
> 
> I thought the point of a prong is to correct a dog and to have more control on leash.


I have not used this technique but from what I understand it is used to increase anger / aggression through pain. I could very well be off on my interpretation, but I know that I have even seen people on this forum posting they use the technique. I do believe that some use e collars for this purpose as well, but don't quote me on that. :grin2:

Off your topic, but so much for prong collars not causing pain, huh?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Just catching up but I did watch the Gellman clip of the nervous malinois.
> 
> I don't like it when trainers like Gellman get on YouTube - and it is always men I see who do this- and they boast "look at me! I can walk this dog that nobody else could handle in two seconds on a prong!" Dog is FIXED! I am the MAN! They seem to have a huge ego trip about it. And they charge something like three month's wages for this service.
> 
> The dog in the video clip has zero connection to the handler (Gellman). Why would it, the dog just met the guy. If there was eye contact it was more like checking in to see what this weird person I don't know is going to do next, rather than checking in to see what this weird person I don't know wants ME to do... two different things. I personally look for the latter where it is a working relationship.
> 
> I've never seen Gellman in videos act as if he LIKES the dogs he is working.
> 
> Gellman says something in the video about the reward for this dog is "going on this awesome walk!". How in the world is that an awesome walk? The dog isn't even getting a chance to look at stuff, or to feel like he is working for and with his handler (something many malinois crave), much less any release time to do doggy things like sniff around or lift a leg on a lamppost. I have no problem with a structured training walk, but don't call that walk in the video an awesome time for the dog. He's not having any fun, clearly. That's fine, I get training is a process, but don't call it fun. And don't call it a reward.
> 
> I have no problem with the quick fix. Reactivity and leash manners are and should be a quick fix- as in basically done in several training session and to off leash in a few weeks or less. The key is timing and level of correction so the dog does not want to practice that undesirable behavior again. This builds understanding, which is also key.
> 
> But- and this is huge- the route to that "quick" fix varies a lot depending on the dog and that is where the skill of the trainer actually comes in. Not every dog will just give in to a prong. Some dogs do better with a different tool, some dogs will only work with those they have a relationship with, some dogs do better with an understanding of OB layered in with a known and proofed command, first. As foundation.
> 
> I could go and slap a prong on plenty of dogs that owner's describe as "impossible" and the dog would be heeling and showing good manners instantly, too. That does not mean I'm a master trainer, it just means that dog never was trained by a person who had a clue.
> 
> *Gellman, if he tried this with one of my dogs, well, I won't go into details except to say him and my dog would have a serious discussion on who was the MAN. *
> 
> Maybe I'm just in a nitpicky mood, but Gellman rubbed me the wrong way in that video, for sure. YES it can be a quick fix, but NO it is not just a matter of slapping a collar on the dog and only giving him 12 inches of leash... unless the dog is really an easy dog to start with, in which case, it's almost a scam to take thousands of dollars.
> 
> And he is 100% wrong saying a prong NEVER increases aggression. Are you kidding? Of course it can. Oppositional reflex, even pops can bring a handler aggressive dog right back at you, or increase his aggression toward whatever he's going at. I've seen prongs used during protection work a lot, one of the top decoys I've worked with prefers prongs to a harness or agitation collar and for a good reason.
> 
> Which is why you need to have more tools in your toolbox and a basic understanding of how dogs learn. It's irresponsible to claim a prong never could cause or increase aggression.


YOU ARE THE MAN!!!! :grin2:

Great post with lots of good information.

I thought this video was awful as well.

Whenever I see a lot of these videos and comments on training advice, I try to envision somebody having dogs like mine or somebody trying this with my dogs and where it would go if they tried these methods with them. I agree with you that the results can be concerning.

Many would argue that this advice is for pet people. All well and good. The problem I have with that statement is that all those pet people don't all have "pet" dogs.


----------



## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's not accurate at all. German Shepherds, Rotts, Dobes, etc., have never mauled and killed people or pets even remotely close to the numbers as that by Pit Bulls. When you also take into consideration that those breeds are / were very popular during those times vs Pit Bulls today being only 3% of total dogs owned, 6% if you add in Pit mixes / derivatives, the numbers are staggering for a relatively unpopular breed.
> 
> View attachment 362169


from the CDCs own website on the ability to accurately rank the danger of a particular breed

"Second, to definitively determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, breed-specific fatality rates should be calculated. The numerator for such rates requires complete ascertainment of deaths and an accurate determination of the breed involved, and the denominator requires reliable breed-specific population data (i.e., number of deaths involving a given breed divided by number of dogs of that breed). However, such denominator data are not available, and official registration or licensing data cannot be used because owners of certain breeds may be less likely than those owning other breeds to register or license their animals (3)."

Dog-Bite-Related Fatalities -- United States, 1995-1996

again, there is also the fact that "pit bull" these days describes a TYPE of dog and not a breed. I've even had people ask if my GSD was a pit bull. Seen blocky-headed labs ran from in terror. Have more than 1 neighbor with mastiff-mixes who brag about their pit bulls (the dogs are over 110+ and in no way resemble pit bulls"

And, just to illustrate the stupidity of humans when it comes to IDing dog breeds this is an actual honest to god ad from a local site:


it's rapidly making the rounds but there were several people lining up to get such a rare dog. and even people saying that they should charge more for the pups


----------



## dogma13

Dainerra said:


> from the CDCs own website on the ability to accurately rank the danger of a particular breed
> 
> "Second, to definitively determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, breed-specific fatality rates should be calculated. The numerator for such rates requires complete ascertainment of deaths and an accurate determination of the breed involved, and the denominator requires reliable breed-specific population data (i.e., number of deaths involving a given breed divided by number of dogs of that breed). However, such denominator data are not available, and official registration or licensing data cannot be used because owners of certain breeds may be less likely than those owning other breeds to register or license their animals (3)."
> 
> Dog-Bite-Related Fatalities -- United States, 1995-1996
> 
> again, there is also the fact that "pit bull" these days describes a TYPE of dog and not a breed. I've even had people ask if my GSD was a pit bull. Seen blocky-headed labs ran from in terror. Have more than 1 neighbor with mastiff-mixes who brag about their pit bulls (the dogs are over 110+ and in no way resemble pit bulls"
> 
> And, just to illustrate the stupidity of humans when it comes to IDing dog breeds this is an actual honest to god ad from a local site:
> 
> 
> it's rapidly making the rounds but there were several people lining up to get such a rare dog. and even people saying that they should charge more for the pups


Now I've officially seen everything.Their blood is too pure??!!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> from the CDCs own website on the ability to accurately rank the danger of a particular breed
> 
> "Second, to definitively determine whether certain breeds are disproportionately represented, breed-specific fatality rates should be calculated. The numerator for such rates requires complete ascertainment of deaths and an accurate determination of the breed involved, and the denominator requires reliable breed-specific population data (i.e., number of deaths involving a given breed divided by number of dogs of that breed). However, such denominator data are not available, and official registration or licensing data cannot be used because owners of certain breeds may be less likely than those owning other breeds to register or license their animals (3)."
> 
> Dog-Bite-Related Fatalities -- United States, 1995-1996
> 
> again, there is also the fact that "pit bull" these days describes a TYPE of dog and not a breed. I've even had people ask if my GSD was a pit bull. Seen blocky-headed labs ran from in terror. Have more than 1 neighbor with mastiff-mixes who brag about their pit bulls (the dogs are over 110+ and in no way resemble pit bulls"
> 
> And, just to illustrate the stupidity of humans when it comes to IDing dog breeds this is an actual honest to god ad from a local site:
> 
> 
> it's rapidly making the rounds but there were several people lining up to get such a rare dog. and even people saying that they should charge more for the pups


Do you really believe that those people selling white Rotts are misidentifying the breed?

I don't for a minute, just a gimmick to dupe the uninformed out of their money.


----------



## Chip18

MadLab said:


> MAWL
> 
> How can a prong be used to increase aggression?
> 
> I thought the point of a prong is to correct a dog and to have more control on leash.


 Well if I can take a stab ... depends on how you use it, the discomfort of the Prong is used to "agitate and ramp up" the dog. Create a aggression instead of damping it down. JQP could easily be walking his "Prong" equipped dog around his local neighborhood ... doing just that and wondering why the "Prong" is not working??

Pet People are more "prone" to do that by accident ... "ineffective corrections." Most likely the "Prong Collars" came from the "Working Dog World??" Some one a long time ago must have figured out that a "Prong Collar" used in a less aggressive manner ... can work in the "Pet World" also?? 

Jeff not explaining that, is why MAWL is a bit disappointed in Jeff. 

But ... the "Experts" can take if from here. 

With that said ... I'll let the experts take over.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have not used this technique but from what I understand it is used to increase anger / aggression through pain. I could very well be off on my interpretation, but I know that I have even seen people on this forum posting they use the technique. I do believe that some use e collars for this purpose as well, but don't quote me on that. :grin2:
> 
> Off your topic, but so much for prong collars not causing pain, huh?


An E-Collar also?? OK that one is news to me!


----------



## Dainerra

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you really believe that those people selling white Rotts are misidentifying the breed?
> 
> I don't for a minute, just a gimmick to dupe the uninformed out of their money.


and yet that doesn't prove the same thing? that there are a lot of people who can actually believe that, yet you think that JQP can accurately ID a pit bull when they see one?


----------



## Baillif

What was so wrong about what Gellman was doing in that video? I think you guys are way off base with him on this one.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Dainerra said:


> and yet that doesn't prove the same thing? that there are a lot of people who can actually believe that, yet you think that JQP can accurately ID a pit bull when they see one?


Absolutely! It proves how people will deliberately practice to deceive when it is to their benefit such as Pit Bull supporters saying a dog is not a Pit Bull, or a Pit Bull is not a breed, for the sole purpose of covering up for the breed doing the deed to protect their breed.

As I mentioned earlier about the pariah terrier type dog that just killed a new born and is being called a German Shepherd by the owners, yet you don't see the German Shepherd community coming out and saying: "That's not a German Shepherd!" Or the one where the Pit / Lab mix that killed the woman and the woman knew she owned a Pit, her family and neighbors new she owned that Pit, first responders on the scene ID'd a Pit, and LE that tracked and shot the #30-35# dog ID'd a Pit, as did the media and the pictures of the dog. But at the last minute the breed was changed to Rottweiler mix. I would love to know how that happened as I saw the pictures and their was no Rott in that mix, but I digress. The point is the Rottweiler community did not come out stating: "Hey, that's not a Rott!" But every time a Pit Bull attack occurs, Pit Bulls supporters swarm the internet with: "Hey! That's not a Pit Bull and / or Pit Bull is not a breed!" It's not working, nobody is buying it. 

Once again, I, like many people, can distinguish between a GSD and a Mal, a Sheltie and a Collie, an Irish Setter and a English Setter. It is not rocket science.

You can object to "pit bull types" all you want but there are herding types, guard types, hounds, retrievers, etc., but let's face it, Dutchies, Mals, GSDs can all be categorized as guard types and the breeds are frequently intermingled. If the breeds that comprise those "types" and their mixes were to kill more people than all other breeds combined, it would just be simply splitting hairs to imply that the breeds of this type are unfairly targeted because somebody could not positively ID whether a dog was a Dutchie or a Dutchie / Mal mix. It just simply would not matter.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> What was so wrong about what Gellman was doing in that video? I think you guys are way off base with him on this one.


I did not like the video because Gellman stated that a prong NEVER increases aggression. I think that was inaccurate especially when it addresses JQP when you don't know their background or their dogs.

Also, I did not see any reactive dogs with which to compare. Show me and I will decide for myself if I consider a dog to be reactive or not. That does not mean you will agree with me or anybody else. It just means I don't need somebody else to do my thinking for me.


----------



## Muskeg

Bailiff- I don't think what he was doing in the video was all bad by any means. It's his attitude in that and other videos that bother me. 

Maybe that is not fair.


----------



## Muskeg

My problem is mainly his "this dog had 15 hours of training and it got nowhere until I got hold of him," statement. It rubbed me the wrong way. 

The work on the street itself, fine. The stuff he said about prongs never increasing aggression and how the dog found that walk rewarding. I don't agree with that. 

Maybe I'm reading way too much into it.


----------



## Baillif

Where was there a quick fix? He said at the start the dog had prior training and they were very close to fixing it. The dog had had over 15 sessions on loose leash walking and they were close to finishing it. Watch the video again look at how much input happened on leash. Not much. The dog demonstrated clear understanding of where it needed to be. He had the dog only 24 hours its genetically nervous he doesn't have a relationship with it yet. He understands any excitement or praise will either just ramp the dog up or just be completely blown off as a result so he doesn't do it. He just keeps the dog in position through gentle negative reinforcement.

You try to praise a dog that doesn't know you and have a relationship with you unless its a super social animal and you are basically wasting your time. I tend to do it anyway just because it makes me feel better but he chooses not to and that's fine. If you are knowledgeable about what you are doing you can fix issues people spend weeks and months on in very very short amounts of time or at least have them 90% of the way done.

Also used properly a prong will not increase aggression. He isn't wrong there. Sure a dog might come up the leash at you but if it does and you respond properly trust me that won't happen with increasing frequency. He didn't mean that it can never increase aggression. He mean't used properly it will never increase aggression. He isn't wrong there.


----------



## Muskeg

Yeah, I agree with you Bailiff on the leash handling and basics being fine.

I don't like his attitude, and I don't like the dog's attitude- which is not the dog's fault. 

And I missed that the dog has had a lot of training. I thought he was saying the dog had 15 hours of training with someone else and the dog still couldn't walk on leash without attacking other dogs, etc. Watching the video knowing the dogs has a heeling foundation already does make a difference. 

Still don't like the "MAN" attitude and think he lacks some basic dog-savvy, but that is my personal opinion and by no means objective.


----------



## Muskeg

I think this has been a good discussion so far and has also proved in fact that a leash IS a difficult tool!


----------



## Baillif

Not gonna lie. When you have a dog that a trainer gives up on and most of the works been done for you and the dog is just missing a concept or two to complete knowledge of the behavior and you can spot it and fix it inside of a day and then someone pays you full price for it it's kinda hard not to feel good about it and like "the man." 

I love those cases.

Some dogs come out with a crap attitude sometimes. The dog doesn't have a relationship with him yet that largely goes away once a relationship is formed. Dogs that are nervous are like that sometimes. That one seemed like it was on a good track.


----------



## Stonevintage

Oh, this cracks me up. What a tower of sphincter Babel parts of this site are built on. Everyone knows it all. The pro dog training sites are all wrong or they are intentionally lying. The statics are all wrong and besides no pros ever assist with proper breed ID - it's all JQP. The vets are all wrong - have them try this and this and this.....

What are your credentials that you can condemn these things? What data sets have you viewed that comprise study results that you in your professional opinion can advise others to discount them? You don't know the dogs you are advising on and what will or will not work with them. 

list of who I listen to for valid advise.... (is your name or profession missing?)

1. Numbers - statistics (and plenty of them to cross match results).
2. Pro dog trainers (not ego driven my way guys - I don't want the dog you shaped).
3. Vets
4. Behaviorists
5. My own experiences with my dog. 
6. Others PERSONAL experiences with their dog
7. Advise or condemnations on this site on anything other than the basics (and that is a distant 5th) unless they are open minded or wide view perspective.


----------



## Stonevintage

Muskeg said:


> I think this has been a good discussion so far and has also proved in fact that a leash IS a difficult tool!


ROFLMAO:laugh2::laugh2: I wonder how the world leaders deal with cutting through all the "opinions" to get to what's real.


----------



## Baillif

its like any dog trainer anywhere will tell you. There are a lot of ways to train a dog but **** yours mine is better.


----------



## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> Not gonna lie. When you have a dog that a trainer gives up on and most of the works been done for you and the dog is just missing a concept or two to complete knowledge of the behavior and you can spot it and fix it inside of a day and then someone pays you full price for it it's kinda hard not to feel good about it and like "the man."
> 
> I love those cases.
> 
> Some dogs come out with a crap attitude sometimes. The dog doesn't have a relationship with him yet that largely goes away once a relationship is formed. Dogs that are nervous are like that sometimes. That one seemed like it was on a good track.


Thank You Bailiff - he did state this dog had 15 lessons and was very close to getting it. I chose this method to try because I believe my dog is close and not starting from scratch either. Neither do I envision that I will suddenly become a pro trainer and fix her in 1 session. But, I can see that when we are getting from point A to point B and not moseying along on a nature walk - this can help her block out distractions and improve focus. It may or may not work but it is the most similar method to what we've been doing that has worked for her. I can't judge it until I have given it a fair try. I'm hoping that we are close too.


----------



## voodoolamb

Stonevintage said:


> Thank You Bailiff - he did state this dog had 15 lessons and was very close to getting it. I chose this method to try because I believe my dog is close and not starting from scratch either. Neither do I envision that I will suddenly become a pro trainer and fix her in 1 session. But, I can see that when we are getting from point A to point B and not moseying along on a nature walk - this can help her block out distractions and improve focus. It may or may not work but it is the most similar method to what we've been doing that has worked for her. I can't judge it until I have given it a fair try. I'm hoping that we are close too.


:thumbsup:

I watched the vid. He had a solid plan and good technique. It wasnt abusive or anything. I'm with some of the others that hit attitude rubbed me the wrong way a bit. But who cares? Not like I have to go grab a drink with him.

If you jive with that training style - go for it! If it doesn't get you the results you want there are plenty of other ways to skin this cat. 

Have you taught summer a focused heel by any chance? That was such a big help in managing my DA pit out in 'real worl' scenarios. - like when someone is being pulled by 4 dogs on a leash, on their phone - not paying any attention to the sled team and traffic is too heavy for you to cross the street (happened more then once lol) Giving him extra stuff to focus on other then just walking nicely by my side kept his mind off the other dogs. Plus since he had to maintain eye contact with ME - he couldn't look at the other dogs and interpret their stares as a challenge.


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## Baillif

Stonevintage said:


> Thank You Bailiff - he did state this dog had 15 lessons and was very close to getting it. I chose this method to try because I believe my dog is close and not starting from scratch either. Neither do I envision that I will suddenly become a pro trainer and fix her in 1 session. But, I can see that when we are getting from point A to point B and not moseying along on a nature walk - this can help her block out distractions and improve focus. It may or may not work but it is the most similar method to what we've been doing that has worked for her. I can't judge it until I have given it a fair try. I'm hoping that we are close too.


What he showed you there will not help with leash reactivity if that's an issue you have without punishment for the leash reactivity just FYI.


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## Stonevintage

voodoolamb said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> I watched the vid. He had a solid plan and good technique. It wasnt abusive or anything. I'm with some of the others that hit attitude rubbed me the wrong way a bit. But who cares? Not like I have to go grab a drink with him.
> 
> If you jive with that training style - go for it! If it doesn't get you the results you want there are plenty of other ways to skin this cat.
> 
> Have you taught summer a focused heel by any chance? That was such a big help in managing my DA pit out in 'real worl' scenarios. - like when someone is being pulled by 4 dogs on a leash, on their phone - not paying any attention to the sled team and traffic is too heavy for you to cross the street (happened more then once lol) Giving him extra stuff to focus on other then just walking nicely by my side kept his mind off the other dogs. Plus since he had to maintain eye contact with ME - he couldn't look at the other dogs and interpret their stares as a challenge.


No I have not. We've practiced the focused heel just briefly on our walks. She has a level of excitement that I need to bring down to do more... I will try some two ball with her about 20 minutes B4 the walks to help with this. She's good about sit or laydown anywhere during the walk but she gets distracted like crazy. So, another reason why I like this video. 

I don't want to over think this process or pick it apart because then I will be right back to sitting and doing nothing. If carp happens with DA on a walk she will certainly get a correction with the prong. I have flat out stopped with a hard correction. She yelps but stops. 

This is a part of the sidewalk that I train her on. Lots of little shops and very wide sidewalks - so plenty of room for me to pull her to the side or exit stage left. There are some little secret pathways between these buildings and I know where to go to get out of dodge fairly quickly. Also, I know half the business owners and they won't me mind ducking in with Summer for a bit in an emergency. They've all watched her grow from a pup.


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## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> What he showed you there will not help with leash reactivity if that's an issue you have without punishment for the leash reactivity just FYI.


She's always loved people and initially pulled like crazy to get to each one we encountered for a hello and a pet. Now, she is much calmer and I don't let anyone except friends at our destination pet her and only then when she's settled in her spot beside me. Then she is very gentle and calm to receive pets or treats from them.

She has never shown frustration or barking because she is restricted by a leash. It's also kind of strange because she has crazy prey drive with the squirrels in our yard but when on a walk she could care less about them.


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## Chip18

So are we back on the "actually" helping someone out thing??? Not gripping I have found this to be actually a very informative thread. 

Still even thought Baillif did a good job ... and Jeff does say "he does need people to defend him, he can do that himself" I find a few things said a bit off base as it were.

First ... yep if an owner "needs" to send their dog to him ... it's a big bill! About $3500 to $4500 dollars I believe?? But ... for those willing to dig in and DIY there dogs themselves, he gives away all his work for free! It's all just a mouse click away! The only thing you need besides a PC and internet access is to know he's out there! So I say ... job well done "me!"

If people don't like that video he has about 2500 others ... just saying. And he also does daily "Periscopes" which he will be doing from Australia next week and he does weekly Q&A radio shows. 

Sometimes callers have problems that are to complex to deal with over the air and he will suggest Skype visits those are in the $200 dollar range I believe?? 

And people have the opportunity to work with him directly. That's why he is going to Australia.

And when he gets back to the states, this is his itineraria:
Dates and Tickets ? Jeff Gellman's RV Dog Training Tour 

Not sure on the cost but I do know it's quite affordable. So yes he is a businessman but he also give his work away for free to help people that can DIY their dogs themselves. )

So that said back on pointe ... well one of them anyway. 

If people are "grumbly" about "that" video well here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

And if the whole problem is because well he's a guy???

Yet again ... here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yIbCe3yo4Y 

And the "Prong" thing not my tool of choice. But by and large if you look at the numbers it does seem to be the tool of choice for trainers that can actually help owners with "serious issues." 

Oh and here you go for a "still" leash reactive dog.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwcvjWOaII

Well guess I'll stop at this point ... for now.


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## Baillif

Jeff feels pretty confident about giving it away because there's a huge difference between being coached in person and taught to loose leash walk a dog and experiences with hundreds of dogs when learning use the prong properly and seeing it in a dvd or video and trying to emulate it. 

I could show start to finish videos on how to train a behavior and you can watch me all day, but when you go to try it yourself even though I might make it look easy you will struggle and struggle. Jeff knows it, I know it. He puts it out there because guess what? You're probably gonna screw it up. 

He was showing a video of a dog that was nearly done. Nowhere in there was a start to finish how to. There was just enough information from there to get someone into trouble. 

I had a buddy who wanted to learn to train watch me train dogs for weeks. He still couldn't do what I did. What I can do with the prong and leash in little delicate movements that I don't even have to think about anymore is acquired through experience as well as knowledge, but mostly experience. I was coached I was shown over and over my mistakes were dissected. I got yelled at for my mistakes. I got pressured through to a high standard. Then from there I handled hundreds and hundreds of dogs. You don't get it from watching a video anymore than you can learn to dribble a basketball from seeing Chris Paul play an NBA game, or learn to shoot a basketball by watching Curry on tv. So much of what you do with the leash has to be "felt." You can't get that from watching someone else do it.


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## Stonevintage

Bailiff - In this particular video, are you saying that Jeff is correcting with the prong? I see a loose leash. If not, what types of things do you think he is employing that we don't see other than what he stated in the beginning about length of leash, attitude and posture? 

I agree with you there's so much stuff that we don't see going on in most of the training videos that make it look so easy on the surface. Also that there's no way to duplicate this the way a trainer in real life can.

That's like saying someone could watch a tech at a Nasa control panel for a couple of hours and then sit down and do the job - or any other job for that manner. I used to be a trainer for a large corp. We trained employees for a week in a classroom environment prior to placement as trainees in our branches. The retention rate was at best 25%. The rest had to come from doing the job and proficiency certainly took many months. 

That's why I chose this video in particular. I don't see a whole lot of that going on here because that dog was close. If mine isn't, this will not work. 

The other thing I've seen in certain dogs, is they won't try to pull some of the carp they routinely do with their owners. I have seen friends dogs act up but the minute they hand the leash over to another person, the dog straightens up - even with someone that's never walked a dog before. I have attributed this to the dog not knowing the person and therefore being extra cautious, (at least initially)with any actions that will draw attention to itself. It dosen't want to rock the boat because they are an unfamiliar situation and they are out of their comfort zone. 

That "window" of time, where it is unsure of it's handler, do you guys take advantage of that knowing it's there (for some dogs) and it gives you the edge in starting things out right from the first seconds of your relationship with that dog?


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## Slamdunc

Those videos are a good example of normal pet dogs with owners that do not understand how to handle their dogs. I watched several of the aggressive, reactive or dog aggressive dogs in his videos. I didn't see anything extreme or even all that aggressive. I saw some poorly behaved, poorly controlled and poorly handled dogs by their owners. It is so common for people to think they have an aggressive dog or a hard to handle dog. I also do dog training and bailif is correct, I can easily take some one's dog and in 5 minutes have it under control and the reactivity and aggression is gone. This is true for the vast majority of dogs that I see. 

Everything is relative and our views of our dogs are very subjective and rarely objective. A lot of folks think they have a dog that is "high drive, civil, dog aggressive or hard to handle," etc. These are dogs that many of us would call low to medium drive dogs, soft and not even aggressive. Based on everything being relative and perception. This is further compounded by breeders that advertise "extreme dogs" or dogs that can do anything from IPO to service work or even be Police K-9's " if the department works them properly.  It simply is not the fact with most breeders, there dogs are pets, bred to be pets but advertised as the epic dogs of the future. There are certainly many excellent breeders that can tell you exactly how their dogs will turn out and have experience in sports or work venues. Several excellent breeders post on here, but they are the exception. 

I try to look at my dogs very objectively, but I often get outside opinions of my dogs working, temperament and drives. A few of the people that I work with think Boomer is hard and would never want to work him, or will not even go near him. He unnerves other K-9 handlers. I see something completely different. For me, he is the easiest dog that I have worked or owned, especially having Boru now, who certainly keeps me on my toes. I've seen a lot of dogs and trained a lot of dogs, most dogs are just unruly and not really aggressive or even dog aggressive. The issue is generally poor handling, poor socialization, poor temperament or a combination. Even well bred dogs can exhibit poor behavior with an over whelmed handler. 

If you are experiencing issues and have been unsuccessful at resolving them on your own, an objective, experienced person can save a lot of time, energy and frustration. 

While videos are great to watch and offer some good insight, I agree that you will not be able to train or handle a dog solely by watching videos. Especially, a dog that some one has been experiencing issues with for a long time. There are many experienced people on here that can see and diagnose these issues quickly. These same folks would not have these issues with the same dogs. This is because with experience you learn to read dogs, handle dogs confidently and set rules and boundaries. Those folks are also consistent with praise and reward, consistent in handling and do not unintentionally reward poor behavior. Training with dogs is some much easier when you do not even allow undesirable behavior to take hold, increase or get out of hand.


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## Muskeg

Most dogs just get away with things and what Bailiff said about people unintentionally creating dog aggression is true. A lot of what people are seeing as dog aggression and even human aggression is just bad handling. I'm guessing most of the dogs Jeff gets in are like that sweet golden retriever in the heeling video. Just lacking direction. 

As an example, I was picking up a few bags of dog food at the store yesterday and had my husky with me on leash. We turned a corner and a Great Dane came at my dog, going for his neck for a bite. Before any contact could happen, I pulled my dog behind me and out of reach, then took the end of my leash, and whacked the Dane on the muzzle. Nothing painful or abusive by any means, mostly startling, but the dog backed off. This was a huge dog. 

The owner yelled at me "don't hit my dog! I was pulling him back!" I told her if her dog is attacking mine I will defend my dog. She left in a huff. 

I started thinking about threads on here on dog attacks, and about oppositional reflex and how pulling a dog back like that builds aggression. If that had been one of my dogs that lunged for a bite (would NOT happen but just "if") I would have seen it building and corrected before any action first off, but anyway, I would have of course pulled the dog back but then given him a major correction.

Hopefully the Dane learned something from the smack to the muzzle, and I'm not going to go around lecturing dog owners on how to handle their dog properly, but there you go. If I had been a less savvy owner, or if I was scared of huge dogs, there would have been contact, and probably a bite. 

With the internet, almost anyone can find a million ideas on how to train their dog, but for a dog that is dog aggressive or reactive, it is hard to find good information. As Stone is doing, try what seems right and go with it, then adjust if needed. Videos like Jeff's can sometimes do more harm than good. Clearly, they are more an advertisement for paying a trainer (hopefully him) than free step by step advice with troubleshooting. As many said, a video is a tough way to learn much, anyway.


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## Baillif

Stonevintage said:


> Bailiff - In this particular video, are you saying that Jeff is correcting with the prong? I see a loose leash. If not, what types of things do you think he is employing that we don't see other than what he stated in the beginning about length of leash, attitude and posture?
> 
> I agree with you there's so much stuff that we don't see going on in most of the training videos that make it look so easy on the surface. Also that there's no way to duplicate this the way a trainer in real life can.
> 
> That's like saying someone could watch a tech at a Nasa control panel for a couple of hours and then sit down and do the job - or any other job for that manner. I used to be a trainer for a large corp. We trained employees for a week in a classroom environment prior to placement as trainees in our branches. The retention rate was at best 25%. The rest had to come from doing the job and proficiency certainly took many months.
> 
> That's why I chose this video in particular. I don't see a whole lot of that going on here because that dog was close. If mine isn't, this will not work.
> 
> The other thing I've seen in certain dogs, is they won't try to pull some of the carp they routinely do with their owners. I have seen friends dogs act up but the minute they hand the leash over to another person, the dog straightens up - even with someone that's never walked a dog before. I have attributed this to the dog not knowing the person and therefore being extra cautious, (at least initially)with any actions that will draw attention to itself. It dosen't want to rock the boat because they are an unfamiliar situation and they are out of their comfort zone.
> 
> That "window" of time, where it is unsure of it's handler, do you guys take advantage of that knowing it's there (for some dogs) and it gives you the edge in starting things out right from the first seconds of your relationship with that dog?


The dog already displayed a very advanced knowledge of the position of heel. The reason he doesn't really need to do much other than keep a loose lead is the dog already knows the behavior. It knows if it leaves the behavior either punishment (a big pop) or negative reinforcement (annoying pops that don't stop until the dog goes back into proper position) will happen. The dog really didn't need any input except on some of the turns the dog missed due to lack of full understanding or a lapse in attention. Posture doesn't really matter, attitude doesn't really matter. All that is Cesar Milan bull**** for the most part. As long as the nuts and bolts of the prong and leash mechanics are in place the dog will be where it needs to be. Because the dog already knows the behavior you don't see much input from the trainer at all and that's why the teaching value of that video is horrendously low. 

It's like if I were to show a video Zebu doing positions from 20 feet away and he doesn't make any errors in it. Does that help you learn how to achieve that? No.


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## Baillif

What people don't realize is energy states and states of mind can be attatched to a handler through classical conditioning. As an example. If I were to crate a malinois and leave it bored all day and I only showed up to train it with food or high intensity play for some flashy IPO obedience or something like that and then as soon as I was done I crated the dog and walked off guess what is going to happen? Anytime I show up the dog is going to go flying into that IPO training mindset just at the sight of me, because that state of mind and that energy level is classically conditioned to my presence. If I never take the time to just chill out with the dog and make it relax around me and have couch potato time the dog will not be neutral to me but be balanced toward the crazy IPO state of heightened.

Well with pet dogs what happens is dog is crated or at home bored. People show up. The greeting is super high energy. HI BUDDY IM HOME! There's excitement and jumping and flying around in a circle and people pet and praise that. Finally there's something to do so the dogs state of mind is heightened after a long period of boring nothing and that state of mind begins to condition to the introduction and person and then kinda gets worse and worse as a pattern of behavior until it gets super annoying, in particular with hyper dogs or dogs that are more hair trigger pushed into excited states of mind. It gets worse when the dog gets crazy you're like man I don't wanna deal with you and then you go put the dog away in a crate because theyre being too crazy and you walk out of the room. You go to let them out and out they come high energy again and we pet them and that kinda thing a lot of times with fast petting frantic hands and it excites them. So it starts this vicious cycle that makes a dog nuts. If that isn't attached to me I can make the dog match up to my energy level through punishment and reward.


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## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> The dog already displayed a very advanced knowledge of the position of heel. The reason he doesn't really need to do much other than keep a loose lead is the dog already knows the behavior. It knows if it leaves the behavior either punishment (a big pop) or negative reinforcement (annoying pops that don't stop until the dog goes back into proper position) will happen. The dog really didn't need any input except on some of the turns the dog missed due to lack of full understanding or a lapse in attention. Posture doesn't really matter, attitude doesn't really matter. All that is Cesar Milan bull**** for the most part. As long as the nuts and bolts of the prong and leash mechanics are in place the dog will be where it needs to be. Because the dog already knows the behavior you don't see much input from the trainer at all and that's why the teaching value of that video is horrendously low.
> 
> It's like if I were to show a video Zebu doing positions from 20 feet away and he doesn't make any errors in it. Does that help you learn how to achieve that? No.


Lol...Well, that throws that video out then. He made such a big deal about the length of leash and position being important that I thought that was part of the training process - also the no praise voice, treat or punishment necessary ("in some cases that actually might raise the dog's level of energy and we want to keep it low")- but in a dog well trained in heel, the dog would already take as a known trained position.... well yea...not needed because it's a known by the dog.

So, what Voodoo was training (before that dog latched onto hers) and what she suggested to me is where I need to start. To get the heel and focus right before I can take a next step. 

With that dog in the video already well trained to the heel with distractions- what the heck was he showing us?.... you're right...nothing there. 

So, what was the owner's problem with not being able to handle what? Something the dog only associates with the owner? So why isn't he working on that with the owner instead of showing the dog?
If that's the case - the owner's going to have the same continuing problem...


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## Baillif

I'm not sure what the dog was missing before Jeff got a hold of him without seeing a video of what the dog was doing before. It might just be a case of the dog not triggering into its usual behavior because it's missing environmental cues that set it off. Who knows?


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## Muskeg

I've been thinking about this thread and exactly why I didn't like the Gellman video, and the trainer in this video explains better than I can my problem with videos like that one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PjqzR740I.

It is not Jeff's handling of the dog- that was fine. It is what he doesn't say. It's the impression that the dog is now miraculously fixed, for life. That somehow his behavior has been altered in a day. It doesn't work like that. Owner follow-up after board and train, and time spent working with the trainer and owner before going home are key. Maybe he says that elsewhere, but I haven't seen it. 

If you have ten minutes, watch the video and think about what the trainer says on the "miracle" dog rehabilitation. It's nothing super special, but it is exactly why I think these videos of rehabilitated dogs can be so disingenuous and even purposefully misleading. It's worth a watch for anyone dealing with dog reactivity who has found all the "dog rehab" videos on line. 

"I don't like the fact that people are being sold this snake oil... there is no rehabilitation until the dog has died without incident... without tools."

I like a lot of what I've seen of this trainer in other videos- but is this really true aggressive dog rehab, as the video states? Decide for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDgSVZJ1mjc

Or this. Here again it's like magic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYU8MvUxH5o. It's not the training I am seeing that bothers me, although I do worry about those kids if a dog fight broke out, it is what the trainer says about the dog being rehabbed in 50 minutes that gets me. It's just not that simple. If he would just go on and explain that, I wouldn't have an issue. But the miracle fix myth is pushed and pushed. And the word rehab thrown around with no clear definition of what rehab would look like.

Yes, reactivity, dog aggression, human aggression can disappear real fast in the right hands. But without more work and probably life long management for many dogs, the dog is not truly rehabbed. 

Just wanted to clarify my thoughts. I am not trying to snipe at any one trainer. Most likely a lot of the mis-representation of rehab is just a business move and I get that.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> I've been thinking about this thread and exactly why I didn't like the Gellman video, and the trainer in this video explains better than I can my problem with videos like that one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PjqzR740I.
> 
> It is not Jeff's handling of the dog- that was fine. It is what he doesn't say. It's the impression that the dog is now miraculously fixed, for life. That somehow his behavior has been altered in a day. It doesn't work like that. Owner follow-up after board and train, and time spent working with the trainer and owner before going home are key. Maybe he says that elsewhere, but I haven't seen it.
> 
> If you have ten minutes, watch the video and think about what the trainer says on the "miracle" dog rehabilitation. It's nothing super special, but it is exactly why I think these videos of rehabilitated dogs can be so disingenuous and even purposefully misleading. It's worth a watch for anyone dealing with dog reactivity who has found all the "dog rehab" videos on line.
> 
> "I don't like the fact that people are being sold this snake oil... there is no rehabilitation until the dog has died without incident... without tools."
> 
> I like a lot of what I've seen of this trainer in other videos- but is this really true aggressive dog rehab, as the video states? Decide for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDgSVZJ1mjc
> 
> Or this. Here again it's like magic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYU8MvUxH5o. It's not the training I am seeing that bothers me, although I do worry about those kids if a dog fight broke out, it is what the trainer says about the dog being rehabbed in 50 minutes that gets me. It's just not that simple. If he would just go on and explain that, I wouldn't have an issue. But the miracle fix myth is pushed and pushed. And the word rehab thrown around with no clear definition of what rehab would look like.
> 
> Yes, reactivity, dog aggression, human aggression can disappear real fast in the right hands. But without more work and probably life long management for many dogs, the dog is not truly rehabbed.
> 
> Just wanted to clarify my thoughts. I am not trying to snipe at any one trainer. Most likely a lot of the mis-representation of rehab is just a business move and I get that.


Real nice video. As you said, well worth the ten minute watch regarding the snake oil of curing dog aggression.


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## Sabis mom

Baillif said:


> I'm not sure what the dog was missing before Jeff got a hold of him without seeing a video of what the dog was doing before. It might just be a case of the dog not triggering into its usual behavior because it's missing environmental cues that set it off. Who knows?


Years ago I took an aggressive terrier into my home. He was fine with me but in a moment of weakness I let his former owner come to see him. She hadn't been in the house 2 minutes and I was seeing a different dog. I always wondered if it was owners that bring out certain behaviors. 
The home he was eventually placed in did fine with him and had no issues with any of his former behavior coming back.


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## Slamdunc

It is interesting to see the critiques of these videos and what people take away. I never heard "Jeff" say that "no voice praise, treat or reward?" I certainly did not get that at all. What I got was "with a nervous dog" you need to be careful with the high pitched praise and treats. I agree with this, because most people really do not really understand or comprehend how to praise or reward their dog. Sometimes praise at the wrong moment can unintentionally reinforce a bad behavior, nervousness or foster more anxiety. 

I've said it before and I've seen it often, people learn how to correct a dog but never really learn how to praise and reward a dog. 

It would be a really long day at work for folks, if they did a good job, worked hard and performed well and the boss said "You get paid on Friday, I expect the good job and hard work every second." Or the eval comes back and it is truly mediocre for even the best employees, and the comments say "Yea, you did a moderately decent job and you got paid for it." Motivation goes a long way, so does an "attaboy" every now and then when it is deserved and earned. 

Those videos are ok, but they don't tell the whole story.


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## Stonevintage

If DA can only be managed and the dog's still giving off signs to the other dog - the training diminishes in value for me. We may encounter having to pass another dog on the street maybe once or twice a week. I'll turn around or cross the street. It will eliminate me taking her to the cafe though. If her DA can only be managed - I would never be able to relax and neither would she with our friends there if another dog were present or suddenly show up. 

When we were on the 35,000 acre place in Texas our dogs had to integrate into the farm dog pack lifestyle. They knew that when they got into fights they would be punished. So, instead of daily fights, there would be weekly ones but the aggression would just build up....and because they were punished in the beginning for walking stiff or just that look they simply eliminated any warning and attacked unexpectedly and fairly silently. It couldn't be managed or "fixed". Not with free roaming dogs.


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## Stonevintage

Slamdunc said:


> It is interesting to see the critiques of these videos and what people take away. I never heard "Jeff" say that "no voice praise, treat or reward?" I certainly did not get that at all. What I got was "with a nervous dog" you need to be careful with the high pitched praise and treats. I agree with this, because most people really do not really understand or comprehend how to praise or reward their dog. Sometimes praise at the wrong moment can unintentionally reinforce a bad behavior, nervousness or foster more anxiety.
> 
> I've said it before and I've seen it often, people learn how to correct a dog but never really learn how to praise and reward a dog.
> 
> It would be a really long day at work for folks, if they did a good job, worked hard and performed well and the boss said "You get paid on Friday, I expect the good job and hard work every second." Or the eval comes back and it is truly mediocre for even the best employees, and the comments say "Yea, you did a moderately decent job and you got paid for it." Motivation goes a long way, so does an "attaboy" every now and then when it is deserved and earned.
> 
> Those videos are ok, but they don't tell the whole story.


I guess you're addressing my post where I mentioned the no voice praise, treat or reward. Is that correct Slam?


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## Slamdunc

It was a general response to the posts regarding the training in those videos. But, the part regarding the ""no voice praise, treat or reward" was in reference to your comment. IMHO, you got that part of the video wrong. My feeling is that others reading this thread might be confused by your post. As I have said before, too many people get the "part" about corrections and are quick to give corrections. Not enough people understand praise, reward and proper timing. IMHO, not enough of the proper praise and reward is given and too many folks think that dogs should "just do as they are told." 

To go one step further, there are folks giving advice on using E collars to teach the sit, recall and down and advising against any praise or reward. Whole websites dedicated to this nonsense and novices suck it up like gravy on a biscuit. 

Sorry, for the rant. This is a pet peeve of mine. Dogs need to be treated fairly, humanely and rewarded for good behavior. 

This is how I teach people to praise a dog for the proper behavior:

Imagine your dog just ran up to you with the winning power ball lottery ticket in it's mouth? How excited would you be? How much would you praise that dog? Well, that is how you need to praise your dog. 

That was a general comment. But, to you specifically: If you walked by a barking dog and your dog did not react, you are going to pass by and not praise your dog? If it were me, I would pass the dog and praise the daylights out of it for the great job and proper behavior. But, that is me and I think we are obviously on a different page. Nothing wrong with that at all, there are a lot of ways to train and handle dogs.


----------



## Stonevintage

Slam - lol Please read my post again. You only extracted a few words of the very lengthy sentence - which of course when anyone chooses to do this and then tell the other it is confusing and they are wrong in interpretation is kinda funny. I think the only one that was confused or concerned about not being able to understand what I was discussing with Bailiff is you. 

My response was to Bailiff about the video and part of an ongoing conversation. Many conversations discussing a video will be confusing to someone if they did not view the video as direct quotes or exact transcripts are rarely used. Why choose to just pick two or three words out of a post and say "YOU'RE WRONG and this will confuse others? Do you do that to every post you think is wrong according to you?




Stonevintage said:


> Lol...Well, that throws that video out then. He made such a big deal about the length of leash and position being important that I thought that was part of the training process - also the no praise voice, treat or punishment necessary ("in some cases that actually might raise the dog's level of energy and we want to keep it low")- but in a dog well trained in heel, the dog would already take as a known trained position.... well yea...not needed because it's a known by the dog.
> 
> This sentence summation Slam = well yea, these things weren't needed because the dog was already well trained to heel (as Bailiff explained to me).... is important to the thought I was discussing with Bailiff and explains why neither treat nor correction was used.


----------



## Baillif

Right what people sometimes fail to understand is what you do with a dog as far as praise and petting and excitement isn't important if the reasons for giving it or the end result of giving it isn't desirable.

With some dogs you touching and petting them is not rewarding it isn't wanted and is therefore a punisher. Doing it when the dog is clearly being made uncomfortable is not helping reward a dog for behavior or make it feel better, and if you see that WHY CONTINUE TO DO IT? Just because most dogs find it rewarding or tolerate it or whatever doesn't mean they all do. If you try to party with the dog and it's like HOLY **** THAT FREAKED ME OUT, you don't continue that if your intent is to try to reward the dog. You find another way.

So yeah if your intention is to reward your dog and praising petting and that kind of thing clearly reward your dog and the time is right then by all means do it, but if the dog doesn't find it rewarding it isn't positive reinforcement. Just like if your dog hates your treat that you have offering it isn't positive reinforcement. Your intent doesn't mean ****. The result is what matters.

Another thing people fail to understand is you can train a dog with nothing but negative reinforcement if you wanted to without rewarding. The escape of the pressure is rewarding in and of itself and with many many dogs just learning to escape the pressure is enough to make the dog happy. Does that mean don't praise? No. IMO you should do whatever you can to show a clear juxtaposition between the right behavior and the wrong one so that the choice the dog should make is made clear.


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> I've been thinking about this thread and exactly why I didn't like the Gellman video, and the trainer in this video explains better than I can my problem with videos like that one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7PjqzR740I.


Ugh sorry Muskeg that guy bores the living crap out of me! I find much more value from "your" post then I do from him! 

Just wondering if this has now become the battle of the trainers??? If so as "Bailiff" stated the only thing three Dog Trainers will agree on ... is that one of them is wrong!


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## SuperG

Slamdunc said:


> Imagine your dog just ran up to you with the winning power ball lottery ticket in it's mouth? How excited would you be? How much would you praise that dog? Well, that is how you need to praise your dog.
> 
> If it were me, I would pass the dog and praise the daylights out of it for the great job and proper behavior.


Okay this made me laugh but good.....one of my big failings in the past with 2 of my dogs was my reluctance to get excited when offering verbal praise to those 2 dogs. An instructor finally nailed me on it during basic recall exercises in a group setting....the dog recalled and I said " good girl" like I was on sedatives...the instructor actually used the example of "winning the lottery"..... I never did impress the instructor with my enthusiastic praise for the dog but in my mind it was cranked up 7-9 levels. So...with my current dog... I started getting animated with the verbal praise when it was issued for a job well done and it makes a difference. My neighbors and people around the area are probably still scratching their heads when I offer up praise....but since I have/had a reactive dog.....when she made it past another dog without losing her crap....I'd go off with the verbal praise....and I know the dog knows she did done good.....real good....and she really seems to thrive on it....more than a scrap of food for certain.


SuperG


----------



## Stonevintage

Baillif said:


> Right what people sometimes fail to understand is what you do with a dog as far as praise and petting and excitement isn't important if the reasons for giving it or the end result of giving it isn't desirable.
> 
> With some dogs you touching and petting them is not rewarding it isn't wanted and is therefore a punisher. Doing it when the dog is clearly being made uncomfortable is not helping reward a dog for behavior or make it feel better, and if you see that WHY CONTINUE TO DO IT? Just because most dogs find it rewarding or tolerate it or whatever doesn't mean they all do. If you try to party with the dog and it's like HOLY **** THAT FREAKED ME OUT, you don't continue that if your intent is to try to reward the dog. You find another way.
> 
> So yeah if your intention is to reward your dog and praising petting and that kind of thing clearly reward your dog and the time is right then by all means do it, but if the dog doesn't find it rewarding it isn't positive reinforcement. Just like if your dog hates your treat that you have offering it isn't positive reinforcement. Your intent doesn't mean ****. The result is what matters.
> 
> Another thing people fail to understand is you can train a dog with nothing but negative reinforcement if you wanted to without rewarding. The escape of the pressure is rewarding in and of itself and with many many dogs just learning to escape the pressure is enough to make the dog happy. Does that mean don't praise? No. IMO you should do whatever you can to show a clear juxtaposition between the right behavior and the wrong one so that the choice the dog should make is made clear.


My dog could care less for a pet or treat when she's walking. When I'm training, I set a goal for the block. Such as 2 sits, a laydown and short leash heel. As she successfully completes each command I say Thank You and she knows she's done it correctly, if not we repeat and I say thank you.

When I took her to the cafe my friends were impressed when I said Summer sit please and she did and I said thank you or later when I asked her to lay down and she did and I said thank you. I like it better than saying Good Girl every 5 minutes but it means the same to her.

When we are at the end of our training session and just as we are heading back in our gate I give her the praise, with the party voice GOOD GIRL!! and a big back scratch and she's relaxed enough to enjoy it. When we get in the door she gets a treat and more good girls!! and scratches and she is happy.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> With some dogs you touching and petting them is not rewarding it isn't wanted and is therefore a punisher.


I never had a dog that would not work for me, my praise, my pets. I am not saying that I don't reward with other methods as well. Each situation is different. Although some wanted more, the rest never withdrew, recoiled, or showed any displeasure. All of my dogs shared the enthusiasm.

Are dogs that don't, as I like to call it "work for the owner", not bonded? Is it genetic? 



SuperG said:


> ....the dog recalled and I said " good girl"* like I was on sedatives...
> *
> SuperG


Oh, you are too funny!


----------



## Slamdunc

Stonevintage,
Sorry, but I am just going to have to agree to disagree. I realize that in your mind your dog has serious dog aggression problems. From reading your posts, I think you have a very nice dog, a friendly dog, a dog that I would own and be very happy with. To be clear, that is a compliment, so there is no miscommunication. 

On my scale of dog aggression and hardness, your dog is a 4-5 out of 10. On your scale, your dog is an 8-9, maybe a 10. Everything is relative and perception is reality. This is not a knock at all, it is just my objective rating of dogs. Most dogs are a 4-5, it is normal, IMO. I owned a very seriously handler aggressive dog, dog aggressive and people aggressive years ago, at the time he was a 9. Today, maybe a 7. I have learned and made a lot of changes, all my future dogs benefited from what I learned from this dog. This dog actually bit me on live TV, WWF Monday night raw with Stone Cold Steve Austin and Vince McMahon. I loved that dog, but going anywhere was stressful. I can absolutely appreciate the angst of walking a dog that you believe is dog aggressive. I've been there and dealt with it and got bit a lot. I learned a lot, because I wanted to be fair, firm and maintain a good relationship. Boomer who is also aggressive has really benefitted from 20 years of refining technique and not repeating mistakes. This is what I had tried to impart here, but perhaps my message was not put out in the best way. 

I really wish you the best with your dog. I think you have a manageable situation, and a problem that can be resolved relatively easily. I realize that my posts are not helping you and I really hope you find a solution that works for you. 

Best of luck.


----------



## Slamdunc

SuperG said:


> Okay this made me laugh but good.....one of my big failings in the past with 2 of my dogs was my reluctance to get excited when offering verbal praise to those 2 dogs. An instructor finally nailed me on it during basic recall exercises in a group setting....the dog recalled and I said " good girl" like I was on sedatives...the instructor actually used the example of "winning the lottery"..... I never did impress the instructor with my enthusiastic praise for the dog but in my mind it was cranked up 7-9 levels. So...with my current dog... I started getting animated with the verbal praise when it was issued for a job well done and it makes a difference. My neighbors and people around the area are probably still scratching their heads when I offer up praise....but since I have/had a reactive dog.....when she made it past another dog without losing her crap....I'd go off with the verbal praise....and I know the dog knows she did done good.....real good....and she really seems to thrive on it....more than a scrap of food for certain.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Your instructor stole my analogy. It's ok, I stole it from someone else. Praise is much more than "good dog" in a monotone voice.


----------



## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never had a dog that would not work for me, my praise, my pets. I am not saying that I don't reward with other methods as well. Each situation is different. Although some wanted more, the rest never withdrew, recoiled, or showed any displeasure. All of my dogs shared the enthusiasm.
> 
> Are dogs that don't, as I like to call it "work for the owner", not bonded? Is it genetic?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you are too funny!


Sometimes its genetic. There are some dogs that are just independent and not very strongly socially affiliated to other dogs or people and sometimes both.

Sometimes the dog just isn't ready for it relationship wise. If the dog is not sold on you and is fearful and nervous it just doesn't give a crap if it made you happy or care for your excitement or praise and is maybe frightened by it because of lack of trust or something of that sort. You can praise and pet and whatever and they will show avoidance, complete apathy, or clear discomfort and if this is the case you should stop doing what you are doing praise wise and modify it and find something else. Sometimes you can come back to it as the dog gains trust and comfort. Often you can.


----------



## Baillif

Slamdunc said:


> Your instructor stole my analogy. It's ok, I stole it from someone else. Praise is much more than "good dog" in a monotone voice.


Right if you can praise and the dog loves it use it. Even in trial I do as much as I can get away with praise wise between exercises without losing points. I try to get an idea from the judge of what they would consider too much and consider taking general allure points for and then I push it as far as I can up to that point but don't go beyond it. In everyday life I dole the praise and rewards out all the time.

If you are correcting and punishing a dog you should balance it out way in the favor of praise and positive reinforcement. You shouldn't be emotionally neutral when your dog is doing well and punish when they aren't doing the right thing. That kind of attitude sucks.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> Sometimes its genetic. There are some dogs that are just independent and not very strongly socially affiliated to other dogs or people and sometimes both.
> 
> Sometimes the dog just isn't ready for it relationship wise. If the dog is not sold on you and is fearful and nervous it just doesn't give a crap if it made you happy or care for your excitement or praise and is maybe frightened by it because of lack of trust or something of that sort. You can praise and pet and whatever and they will show avoidance, complete apathy, or clear discomfort and if this is the case you should stop doing what you are doing praise wise and modify it and find something else. Sometimes you can come back to it as the dog gains trust and comfort. Often you can.


That's pretty much what I was thinking. Is the genetics for this common?


----------



## Stonevintage

Slamdunc said:


> Stonevintage,
> Sorry, but I am just going to have to agree to disagree. I realize that in your mind your dog has serious dog aggression problems. From reading your posts, I think you have a very nice dog, a friendly dog, a dog that I would own and be very happy with. To be clear, that is a compliment, so there is no miscommunication.
> 
> On my scale of dog aggression and hardness, your dog is a 4-5 out of 10. On your scale, your dog is an 8-9, maybe a 10. Everything is relative and perception is reality. This is not a knock at all, it is just my objective rating of dogs. Most dogs are a 4-5, it is normal, IMO. I owned a very seriously handler aggressive dog, dog aggressive and people aggressive years ago, at the time he was a 9. Today, maybe a 7. I have learned and made a lot of changes, all my future dogs benefited from what I learned from this dog. This dog actually bit me on live TV, WWF Monday night raw with Stone Cold Steve Austin and Vince McMahon. I loved that dog, but going anywhere was stressful. I can absolutely appreciate the angst of walking a dog that you believe is dog aggressive. I've been there and dealt with it and got bit a lot. I learned a lot, because I wanted to be fair, firm and maintain a good relationship. Boomer who is also aggressive has really benefitted from 20 years of refining technique and not repeating mistakes. This is what I had tried to impart here, but perhaps my message was not put out in the best way.
> 
> I really wish you the best with your dog. I think you have a manageable situation, and a problem that can be resolved relatively easily. I realize that my posts are not helping you and I really hope you find a solution that works for you.
> 
> Best of luck.


We had this same conversation a few days ago. Then, you told me that I thought my dog was Cujo.You also told me that I was communicating down the leash and causing the DA. I said, no - I do not think my dog is Cujo and I said how can that be when I have not even walked my dog on a leash past another dog yet? Then you didn't like my two collar set up what did you call it? The Mr T starter kit. 

If you would make a few less assumptions about what I'm thinking or doing - it will serve you well. As far as the collar - it's staying and the prong functions properly and that's what matters - I don't care how it looks.


----------



## Baillif

Depends on your definition of common. Not really though. I've seen quite a few of them but they are relatively rare. It is much more common to have one that seems that way because they are a little stressed out and shut down, but generally they quickly warm up.


----------



## Slamdunc

Baillif said:


> Right if you can praise and the dog loves it use it. Even in trial I do as much as I can get away with praise wise between exercises without losing points. I try to get an idea from the judge of what they would consider too much and consider taking general allure points for and then I push it as far as I can up to that point but don't go beyond it. In everyday life I dole the praise and rewards out all the time.
> 
> If you are correcting and punishing a dog you should balance it out way in the favor of praise and positive reinforcement. You shouldn't be emotionally neutral when your dog is doing well and punish when they aren't doing the right thing. That kind of attitude sucks.


I teach my dogs from pups that Yessssssssssssssssss, comes instantly before the reward comes. Then I eliminate the Yess and leave the sssssssssssss as a whisper. The ssshhhh sound becomes the verbal marker and brings the dog up in drive while doing OB or even protection. It is something the dog picks up on and reacts by going higher in drive and being more correct. But, the judge will never hear it or notice it. It is a positive verbal marker and if done consistently paired with the reward is very powerful during a trial routine. If the dog starts to go flat or fatigue, I simply whisper "sssssss" and the dog bounces up in drive from the paired association.


----------



## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> We had this same conversation a few days ago. Then, you told me that I thought my dog was Cujo.You also told me that I was communicating down the leash and causing the DA. I said, no - I do not think my dog is Cujo and I said how can that be when I have not even walked my dog on a leash past another dog yet? Then you didn't like my two collar set up what did you call it? The Mr T starter kit.
> 
> If you would make a few less assumptions about what I'm thinking or doing - it will serve you well. As far as the collar - it's staying and the prong functions properly and that's what matters - I don't care how it looks.


Like I said, you do what works for you. I am completely off base here. I have no idea where I got my assumptions from? I'm sure your collar system is working well for you and that is the best set up you could have. Don't change a thing for me, keep doing what you are doing, it is great for you. 

I am going to stop responding to you as I am clearly of no help. Enjoy your dog. I'm finished offering any advice here. I may post to others, please do not think my future posts are anyway directed to you. Have a nice evening and best of luck.


----------



## Sabis mom

Slamdunc said:


> Stonevintage,
> Sorry, but I am just going to have to agree to disagree. I realize that in your mind your dog has serious dog aggression problems. From reading your posts, I think you have a very nice dog, a friendly dog, a dog that I would own and be very happy with. To be clear, that is a compliment, so there is no miscommunication.
> 
> On my scale of dog aggression and hardness, your dog is a 4-5 out of 10. On your scale, your dog is an 8-9, maybe a 10. Everything is relative and perception is reality. This is not a knock at all, it is just my objective rating of dogs. Most dogs are a 4-5, it is normal, IMO. I owned a very seriously handler aggressive dog, dog aggressive and people aggressive years ago, at the time he was a 9. Today, maybe a 7. I have learned and made a lot of changes, all my future dogs benefited from what I learned from this dog. This dog actually bit me on live TV, WWF Monday night raw with Stone Cold Steve Austin and Vince McMahon. I loved that dog, but going anywhere was stressful. I can absolutely appreciate the angst of walking a dog that you believe is dog aggressive. I've been there and dealt with it and got bit a lot. I learned a lot, because I wanted to be fair, firm and maintain a good relationship. Boomer who is also aggressive has really benefitted from 20 years of refining technique and not repeating mistakes. This is what I had tried to impart here, but perhaps my message was not put out in the best way.
> 
> I really wish you the best with your dog. I think you have a manageable situation, and a problem that can be resolved relatively easily. I realize that my posts are not helping you and I really hope you find a solution that works for you.
> 
> Best of luck.


I like this post. I like the perception is reality part.

I can understand where Stone is coming from. Bud is a serious dog, a dog that will redirect in a blink, a dog that can and will come up the leash if his handler wavers at all, a dog that thinks he owns the world, isn't fond of strangers or idiot dogs and isn't going to waste energy explaining that you are pissing him off, he's just going to do something about it. And if you push back he's just going to dig in and fight harder. Dealing with him in his prime was sometimes a heart stopping event, but I was younger, stronger and faster.
Shadow is more like a pita then a problem. But I'm older, slower and have some mobility issues. So dog aggression that 10 years ago would have gotten her a swat in the head and a knock it off, now puts me off balance and is genuinely frightening. Watching a dog you love get attacked, or getting attacked yourself is mind altering. It's great to say get over it, but the reality is that some people can't. For a long time every time a dog approached all I could see was Shadow hanging out of that Rotti's mouth, screaming. Because I hadn't prevented it and couldn't stop it. It didn't matter that I DID make it let go, in those seconds I was powerless. It took me ages to understand that I had become the problem, that Shadow was feeding off my fear. It is still difficult to stay calm. And when you KNOW that you may stumble, or drop the leash, or not be fast enough it sucks. And when you are alone, not able to get help and you know that it's all up to you it just adds to the pressure.
I agree that Summer sounds like a nice dog, but she has a human attached to the leash who is struggling and I get that.


----------



## Baillif

I do the same kind of thing. I know people who wear hats while training and occasionally reward the dog with the hat. The dog does an exercise correctly and is starting to go flat they will tip the hat to the dog and get them all excited. Not sure if you can get away with that kind of thing in French Ring but it works for Mondio at least. You have a lot of flexibility in terms of what you can get away with on your prep lines in mondio so I can make a dog bark in the prep to get him crazier when I need him crazier or I can put a lot of social pressure on him if I want him to be more careful based on the tone of how I give a command. All those little handler tricks are always fun. I know people that cue their defenses and some even have a system for cuing an object guard at least during a club trial. If I want my contact heel to become an attention heel I just start breathing more loudly because that is a cue a reward is coming if the dog maintains eye contact with me. I can potentially use that in other exercises too. All those fun little handler tricks are part of what makes it a little more entertaining. It isn't just about being a good trainer its about being a good trialer and handler too.


----------



## Stonevintage

SuperG said:


> Okay this made me laugh but good.....one of my big failings in the past with 2 of my dogs was my reluctance to get excited when offering verbal praise to those 2 dogs. An instructor finally nailed me on it during basic recall exercises in a group setting....the dog recalled and I said " good girl" like I was on sedatives...the instructor actually used the example of "winning the lottery"..... I never did impress the instructor with my enthusiastic praise for the dog but in my mind it was cranked up 7-9 levels. So...with my current dog... I started getting animated with the verbal praise when it was issued for a job well done and it makes a difference. My neighbors and people around the area are probably still scratching their heads when I offer up praise....but since I have/had a reactive dog.....when she made it past another dog without losing her crap....I'd go off with the verbal praise....and I know the dog knows she did done good.....real good....and she really seems to thrive on it....more than a scrap of food for certain.
> 
> 
> SuperG


When my dog was young. I trained in the yard first before we went out to learn it on the streets. I always had big praise parties and treats for her when she obeyed the newly learned command. 

If I give her big praise on the street - she breaks all training it's jump and go see this person or this tree and run around and PARTY TIME and go wild time - and it takes me 5 minutes to get her calmed back down enough to resume training. That's why I reserve the exuberant praise for completion of the "course". But I'm also not correcting her. I might tough my hand lightly to her but - but that's it.

This is the same voice I have when I'm playing 2 ball with her or we're out in the yard goofing around and not in training so I can see why she thinks it's suddenly play time. Nobody ever said to use two different toned happy voices for play or praise. Imagine her confusion when I give big happy praise (she thinks play time) and I correct her for acting the fool all the sudden. That wouldn't be fair.


----------



## SuperG

Stonevintage said:


> When my dog was young. I trained in the yard first before we went out to learn it on the streets. I always had big praise parties and treats for her when she obeyed the newly learned command.
> 
> If I give her big praise on the street - she breaks all training it's jump and go see this person or this tree and run around and PARTY TIME and go wild time - and it takes me 5 minutes to get her calmed back down enough to resume training. That's why I reserve the exuberant praise for completion of the "course". But I'm also not correcting her. I might tough my hand lightly to her but but that's it.
> 
> This is the same voice I have when I'm playing 2 ball with her or we're out in the yard goofing around and not in training so I can see why she thinks it's suddenly play time. Nobody ever said to use two different toned happy voices for play or praise. Imagine her confusion when I give big happy praise (she thinks play time) and I correct her for acting the fool all the sudden. That wouldn't be fair.


These dogs are smart.....and no doubt mine has figured out different tones....training tone and words....play tone and words... chill out tone and words... .praise tones and associated words.....and of course the tone and words she gets when she's pushing it a tad too much and testing my patience. I think I have it covered...whoops...the first one she learned... the are ya hungry tone....

SuperG


----------



## Stonevintage

SuperG said:


> These dogs are smart.....and no doubt mine has figured out different tones....training tone and words....play tone and words... chill out tone and words... .praise tones and associated words.....and of course the tone and words she gets when she's pushing it a tad too much and testing my patience. I think I have it covered...whoops...the first one she learned... the are ya hungry tone....
> 
> SuperG


Mine doesn't seem to have a lot of middle ground off property yet. Way too much to see and do and it's all good. She sure has it in the house though, sometimes it's like reading my mind. I did start putting her squeek balls away when we're not playing football with them.It was the one thing that needed work in the house. That's kept her from throwing them at me or shoving them behind my back on the chair or in the bed. She crabbed about it for a couple of days but has quit. She does have her tug but she's not trying to bug me with it all the time. 

Lol - mine learned first "Do you want...... I need get no further - heck yea SHE WANTS! play, treat it doesn't matter whatever's coming next is all good!!:grin2:


----------



## Slamdunc

SuperG said:


> These dogs are smart.....and no doubt mine has figured out different tones....training tone and words....play tone and words... chill out tone and words... .praise tones and associated words.....and of course the tone and words she gets when she's pushing it a tad too much and testing my patience. I think I have it covered...whoops...the first one she learned... the are ya hungry tone....
> 
> SuperG


Yup, dogs do not understand English or German and can't speak to us. They learn some words or phrases but absolutely respond to body language and inflection and intonation. Body language and subliminal cues are a huge thing. That includes breathing.


----------



## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> My dog could care less for a pet or treat when she's walking. When I'm training, I set a goal for the block. Such as 2 sits, a laydown and short leash heel. As she successfully completes each command I say Thank You and she knows she's done it correctly, if not we repeat and I say thank you.
> 
> When I took her to the cafe my friends were impressed when I said Summer sit please and she did and I said thank you or later when I asked her to lay down and she did and I said thank you. I like it better than saying Good Girl every 5 minutes but it means the same to her.
> 
> When we are at the end of our training session and just as we are heading back in our gate I give her the praise, with the party voice GOOD GIRL!! and a big back scratch and she's relaxed enough to enjoy it. When we get in the door she gets a treat and more good girls!! and scratches and she is happy.


Just to this point on praise, if I am working with a rescue, I'm pretty flat with praise. Good Boy or Girl and it's get on with it. With your on dog it's a bit different!

Rocky my OS WL GSD pretty sure he enjoys praise but kinda hard to tell when your basis of comparison is a "Boxer!" Struddel was pretty much ... over the moon with a "Good Girl" compliment.  


But by and large people that deal day in and day out with dogs, wouldn't find "video's" all that informative?? 

They aren't made for "people that know what they are doing." They are made for people that don't, so if Jeff "overemphasis" that a 
"Prong Collar" used "properly" won't hurt your dog ... it's because he is working with JQP and by and large "they" believe it will.

Use it "properly" in the first place ... and there is need to worry about "Putting Drive in or taking Drive out" of a dog. JQP does not care they only want to walk their dog and not worry about their dog ... as I am want to say ..."acting like a fool!" 

Real World testimonial from a real world dog owner. 

https://www.facebook.com/140229622668254/videos/1076399232384617/

Just saying.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Just to this point on praise, if I am working with a rescue, I'm pretty flat with praise. Good Boy or Girl and it's get on with it. With your on dog it's a bit different!
> 
> Rocky my OS WL GSD pretty sure he enjoys praise but kinda hard to tell when your basis of comparison is a "Boxer!" Struddel was pretty much ... over the moon with a "Good Girl" compliment.
> 
> 
> But by and large people that deal day in and day out with dogs, wouldn't find "video's" all that informative??
> 
> They aren't made for "people that know what they are doing." They are made for people that don't, so if Jeff "overemphasis" that a
> "Prong Collar" used "properly" won't hurt your dog ... it's because he is working with JQP and by and large "they" believe it will.
> 
> Use it "properly" in the first place ... and there is need to worry about "Putting Drive in or taking Drive out" of a dog. JQP does not care they only want to walk their dog and not worry about their dog ... as I am want to say ..."acting like a fool!"
> 
> Real World testimonial from a real world dog owner.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/140229622668254/videos/1076399232384617/
> 
> Just saying.




Interesting body language on this now "balanced" (as the owner called it) dog when in the presence of other dogs. If my dogs presented like that after training, I wouldn't be a happy camper.


----------



## SuperG

Slamdunc said:


> Yup, dogs do not understand English or German and can't speak to us. They learn some words or phrases but absolutely respond to body language and inflection and intonation. Body language and subliminal cues are a huge thing. That includes breathing.


I never gave much thought to my breathing and the messages it might send ...if you don't mind ..maybe you could expand on that a bit.

SuperG


----------



## Slamdunc

SuperG said:


> I never gave much thought to my breathing and the messages it might send ...if you don't mind ..maybe you could expand on that a bit.
> 
> SuperG


Sure, I use several breathing techniques, all markers either positive or negative. As mentioned earlier, I say "yesssss" and elongate the "ssssssss" sound as a positive marker. It turns into a whisper bit is paired with praise and reward. 

When annoyed, irritated I have paired a negative marker is a deep inhalation through my nose. The deep inhale is paired with a negative marker and followed up with a correction or fixing the behavior. Over time the verbal markers can be phased out and the breathing is left. 

If I breath deeply, my dogs know that I am about to stop or fix a behavior. For example, when Boomer starts to fence fight with the neighbor's dogs, I simply inhale deeply and then command "here." Usually, all that is necessary is the deep inhalation. Boomer knows that a correction will follow with in 1 1/2 - 2 seconds if he doesn't stop and recall. I do not like to raise my voice or yell at my dogs. I feel that sends a message of lose of control. I can simply breath deeply and the dog gets it. 

I smile when I see my dogs and when I am happy with them. They recognize that as well. I also keep my upper body loose and move my shoulders and arms with a bounce when heeling. It shows excitement and that I'm happy and brings that out in the dog. 

There are a million little things that people do that communicate directly to your dog. I try to take a few and add them into my training, trialing and working. 

If I make a clicking sound with my mouth my dogs do a fast, sharp sit. Barely audible to someone standing near me, but very clear to my dogs. This has applications in trials and there times when working that I do not want to give a verbal command. I use hand signals as well. I also use body language and if I tap my dog with my left knee he will stand and stay. A nice thing for covert building clearing in the dark with the SWAT team. 

We all have little tells or ticks that our dogs pick up on way before we give any command. Reaching for the leash or about to touch an E collar, they figure it out really fast.


----------



## Sabis mom

Slamdunc said:


> Sure, I use several breathing techniques, all markers either positive or negative. As mentioned earlier, I say "yesssss" and elongate the "ssssssss" sound as a positive marker. It turns into a whisper bit is paired with praise and reward.
> 
> When annoyed, irritated I have paired a negative marker is a deep inhalation through my nose. The deep inhale is paired with a negative marker and followed up with a correction or fixing the behavior. Over time the verbal markers can be phased out and the breathing is left.
> 
> If I breath deeply, my dogs know that I am about to stop or fix a behavior. For example, when Boomer starts to fence fight with the neighbor's dogs, I simply inhale deeply and then command "here." Usually, all that is necessary is the deep inhalation. Boomer knows that a correction will follow with in 1 1/2 - 2 seconds if he doesn't stop and recall. I do not like to raise my voice or yell at my dogs. I feel that sends a message of lose of control. I can simply breath deeply and the dog gets it.
> 
> I smile when I see my dogs and when I am happy with them. They recognize that as well. I also keep my upper body loose and move my shoulders and arms with a bounce when heeling. It shows excitement and that I'm happy and brings that out in the dog.
> 
> There are a million little things that people do that communicate directly to your dog. I try to take a few and add them into my training, trialing and working.
> 
> If I make a clicking sound with my mouth my dogs do a fast, sharp sit. Barely audible to someone standing near me, but very clear to my dogs. This has applications in trials and there times when working that I do not want to give a verbal command. I use hand signals as well. I also use body language and if I tap my dog with my left knee he will stand and stay. A nice thing for covert building clearing in the dark with the SWAT team.
> 
> We all have little tells or ticks that our dogs pick up on way before we give any command. Reaching for the leash or about to touch an E collar, they figure it out really fast.


That works both ways. My first patrol dog, Billy, used to shoulder into me if there was someone around. Hunter bobbed his head if he didn't like someone near us. Sabi used to do what I called her dumb dog pose if she thought someone was going to come at me, drop her head and let her ears flop to the sides, told me something was going to happen. I always swore she did it to make them think she was no threat. Interestingly, she also would shoulder into me if someone was around. She was not related to Billy and they never met so maybe it's dog speak for 'heads up'.


----------



## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> Just to this point on praise, if I am working with a rescue, I'm pretty flat with praise. Good Boy or Girl and it's get on with it. With your on dog it's a bit different!
> 
> Rocky my OS WL GSD pretty sure he enjoys praise but kinda hard to tell when your basis of comparison is a "Boxer!" Struddel was pretty much ... over the moon with a "Good Girl" compliment.
> 
> 
> But by and large people that deal day in and day out with dogs, wouldn't find "video's" all that informative??
> 
> They aren't made for "people that know what they are doing." They are made for people that don't, so if Jeff "overemphasis" that a
> "Prong Collar" used "properly" won't hurt your dog ... it's because he is working with JQP and by and large "they" believe it will.
> 
> Use it "properly" in the first place ... and there is need to worry about "Putting Drive in or taking Drive out" of a dog. JQP does not care they only want to walk their dog and not worry about their dog ... as I am want to say ..."acting like a fool!"
> 
> Real World testimonial from a real world dog owner.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/140229622668254/videos/1076399232384617/
> 
> Just saying.


I have no problem with the prong collar. I use it and am happy with it - don't know where I'd be without it. I didn't say a thing against Jeff's explanation - must have been someone else's post - imagine that ever happening.:surprise:

I am JQP but my problem with the videos echo that of the trainers here and I think you should question them and not me - or not them through me? They have given some explanation's here and I don't think it's from a narrow point of view on their part. Do you think because they're trainers they are lying?

The only thing I can tell you is IMO they are lacking how to read your individual dog and without that, using these videos in lieu of a hands on trainer - JQP is going to make mistakes and some will take months to reverse. I speak from personal experience. 

That is why I am being so careful as to how I try to approach this issue with the DA that Summer has shown so far. Some think I'm over reacting but I can make it worse or better and the method and approach for my individual dog is so important. For example, my inclination on seeing her DA with another dog would be to give a hard correction with the prong (not knowing until 2 days ago that this could produce the opposite effect).

How does JQP select which method he is going to use from the training tapes when he has no knowledge of basic dog behavior - let alone his specific dog? Just as important, when something doesn't go right when they try to apply what they see on the tapes how are they to know what's wrong? Will they get frustrated and discount that method, probably. How many people that are referred to the videos come back here to ask why it didn't work or a part of the instruction didn't work - very few if any and it's not because that video produced some magic and they were able to replicate the results just as the video promised. They more likely got mad and frustrated. 

You know the amount of questions posters here have to ask here just to really get to the basis of any simple problem and many times it's something that has to be resolved before training can be successful. 

I used to try to use the tapes, then came here to find out why they were not working. In every case, it was because of what you don't see on the tapes - not what you do. The tapes introduce you to method and theory but do nothing to deal with the individual dog or underlying issues. JQP does not have the ability to understand how to read a dog or when they are using the wrong method for that dog.

Dogs are not cookie cutter animals and the video tapes do not allow for individuality or explain proper selection of method that JQP would understand because they don't have the experience and can't read their dog. Show me a video tape that can replace the knowledge and experience of a trainer hands on with your dog, one that can teach you everything a trainer knows so you can train your dog and get the results they do. It can't be done on a video. 

Every time I have a problem with training it is because there's another issue going on underneath that I need to deal with before I can proceed - Inadvertent negative training, drives, focus and you have to know that the reason you training's not working is because it's either the wrong method (you JQP chose 'cause it looked cool and easy on a video) or there's other issues that need to get straightened out first - or just a bad choice for your particular dog.

This latest video that we've been discussing. I thought it was wonderful and would work for Summer. Bailiff pointed out one thing, just one... and the whole video fell apart like a house of cards for me. What I thought I saw - was not at all what was actually going on but hey it looked good for the camera and to JQP..... 

That exhausts all the ways I can explain my experience and point of view. :smile2:


----------



## Slamdunc

Chip18 said:


> Just to this point on praise, if I am working with a rescue, I'm pretty flat with praise. Good Boy or Girl and it's get on with it. With your on dog it's a bit different!
> 
> Rocky my OS WL GSD pretty sure he enjoys praise but kinda hard to tell when your basis of comparison is a "Boxer!" Struddel was pretty much ... over the moon with a "Good Girl" compliment.
> 
> 
> But by and large people that deal day in and day out with dogs, wouldn't find "video's" all that informative??
> 
> They aren't made for "people that know what they are doing." They are made for people that don't, so if Jeff "overemphasis" that a
> "Prong Collar" used "properly" won't hurt your dog ... it's because he is working with JQP and by and large "they" believe it will.
> 
> *Use it "properly" in the first place ... and there is need to worry about "Putting Drive in or taking Drive out" of a dog. JQP does not care they only want to walk their dog and not worry about their dog ... as I am want to say ..."acting like a fool!*"
> 
> Real World testimonial from a real world dog owner.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/140229622668254/videos/1076399232384617/
> 
> Just saying.


Ok, here is something that needs to be addressed, the proper use of a prong collar. On occasion I go into Petco and see folks coming from their classes with a prong fitted like they slipped it over the dog's head. Actually, I have seen JQP actually do this. 

For a prong collar to be effective it must be tight and directly under the mandibles. It should be high on the neck and right under the ears. It should not spin easily and should stay in place. There should only be a relatively short movement of the chain when giving corrections. 

Next, to the point that a prong will not hurt your dog when used and "fitted" properly that is true. Choke chains do far more damage. There are studies of dogs in Germany, hundreds of dogs showing the difference. Now, a loosely fitted prong will do damage and pinch even worse. A cheap prong will do damage, I only use the HS prong collars. 

Here is the thing with prong collars and dog aggressive dogs, used incorrectly it absolutely can increase aggression. Corrections delivered in the wrong way, poorly timed and coupled with frustration on the owners part can absolutely increase aggression. 

Most dogs that owners think are dog aggressive really aren't that aggressive, they are poorly behaved and improperly handled, IME. JQP has trouble reading dogs and some dogs are barking to play, or simply frustrated and reacting to the dogs they see. Most have learned to be reactive because the owner sees a dog coming, tenses up, gets a death grip on the leash and gets nervous or anxious. This is immediately translated to the dog, who has been unintentionally trained to think something bad is about to happen. All because of the owner's nervousness. The leash is like a telegraph line, what ever you is immediately sent to the dog directly through the leash. Your body language is the other big communicator. Why do you think the Cesar or this guy "Jeff" make a big deal out of being relaxed and your persona? It is so easy to see how it effects the dog. 

If you can not control yourself you will never be able to control a dog. 

Now, most dogs, like the black lab or mutt in one of "Jeff's" videos are simply acting out. Not really dog aggressive (poorly behaved), they really don't want to fight. They are posturing because they don't know what else to do. They lack the training and socialization (as their handler's do also) to know how to act. IMHO, this isn't really dog aggression but an out of control dog. The dog is not vicious and doesn't really want to bite anyone. For this dog a prong is perfect. A soft dog, a 4-5 on my scale of harness and not leash or handler aggressive. A quick pop and you are good to go. That is 95% of the dogs out there. That is 95% of the GSD's out there. They are really not DA just "PB." 

These dogs are really not DA, but because they bark like crazy at another dog their owners thinks they are super DA. That is generally not the case at all. Put a prong collar on the dog, take a deep breath, compose yourself and go for a walk. Don't take that silly nonsense from your dog, correct for poor behavior and move on. Praise appropriately for your dog when correct and have a nice day. This really isn't rocket science and it's really not that hard with 98% of the dogs in the world. JQP's poorly behaved (not DA) dog wants to learn how to act, wants to go for walks with out stress just like it's owner.

Because your dog barks at other dogs does not make it dog aggressive. Even dogs that seemingly go crazy, hackles up at the sight of another dog may only be slightly dog aggressive. If you were to drop the leash and the dogs met there would rarely be a serious fight. 

The trick is to be able to read the dog. But, it really doesn't even matter because you are responsible for your dog. If your dog is so poorly behaved (substituted for DA) then it's your (JQP's) job to handle and control your dog. It's really a simple concept, step up and take charge. OR keep your dog in your fenced yard. 

Dogs charging a fence and barking are not necessarily DA, it's what dogs do, especially when guarding their territory. 

If you want to keep your dog out of control and seemingly DA, simply walk by another dog with your leash tightly wrapped around your hand and let your dog pull till he nearly chokes himself out. Look at the dogs on "Jeff's" video. That is exactly what the owner did and he didn't. You need to walk your dogs on a loose leash, tension creates frustration. If I want my patrol to get aggressive, I simply hold him back, by the collar is even better and he gets it. If you are in the habit of dragging your dog by other dogs while your dog is barking, you are instilling this poor behavior. 

With the other 1 or 2% of dog that are truly aggressive and can potentially show displaced aggression or handler aggression, a prong can make this worse. A prong collar is a pain induced correction, just like an E collar. I have discussed this many times on this forum and elsewhere. Some dogs when corrected harshly will redirect and bite the handler. Generally, this is do to a poor relationship, ineffective leadership or the rules not consistently applied. But, it could also be a dog that redirects when it experiences pain. Few people have dogs like this. So, JQP should not go thinking "this is my dog!" Like most people think there dog is "civil." 

If you have issues where your dog has growled at you, shown it's teeth over a bone or a correction or actually bit you, then be careful with a prong. Hard corrections from a prong can escalate aggression and cause a dog like that to turn and bite you. Everything is a balance, you may need to correct a dog like that much harder to extinguish the behavior and cause the dog to stop immediately. Slightly less, may get you a nice fur jacket hanging from your arm. Same with too much. Or, better yet go to a nylon slip collar and not use a prong. This is where professional help is a benefit. 

Yes, a prong can increase drive and even aggression. We use it all the time in sport work and in my K-9 handling. Tiny nagging pops can bring a dog up in drive and aggression. Strong corrections extinguish drive and can control aggression or stop an undesirable behavior. It is a finesse tool. JQP generally lacks the finesse, presence and technique to control a seemingly DA dog. That is where the problems start.

I'm sure this is too much to read. A prong is a fantastic training tool, used correctly. It won't solve all your problems, unless you can read your dog and use the collar effectively. It is not meant to help you drag your dog past other dogs. >


----------



## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's pretty much what I was thinking. Is the genetics for this common?


It's common in other breeds.My girl Misty is very independent.She can be very responsive at times and willing to please.But she makes her own decisions.She will let me know sweetly and politely that she prefers not to be touched right now.Or to practice obedience,etc.(No thank you,not today.Another time perhaps.So kind of you to understand.)

She can never be off leash in the yard with the other dogs.She'll hang around the general area but won't recall until she's darn good and ready.But when we go for a run in the woods she hops right in the car when it's time to go home.She's such a cool,half wild dog.Yet she obeys perfectly if I call her off of wildlife or need her to leave it.Such a different temperament from a shepherd.The shepherds I have had are always eager to follow directions.


----------



## Baillif

Regardless of whether or not they are genetically independent you can get high reliability obedience out of them whenever you want, not on the dogs terms. 

However, what you will notice is they will be much much much less likely to come up to you of their own accord and won't, or at least rarely will come up to you to solicit petting or any kind of physical contact. It's possible through training to get them to tolerate and even to a degree enjoy petting if you exploit the premack principle, AKA HOW CAN YOU HAVE YOUR PUDDING IF YOU DON'T EAT YOUR MEAT. Basically if something less desirable (being pet) becomes a signal for something very desirable (high value treats, or play, etc it raises the value of the less desirable thing. Also on the flip side if the dog tries to avoid the petting the result is punishment you can get the vast majority of dogs that don't like petting to value petting. So there are ways around everything, but it takes work sometimes whereas if you have a social dog they might annoy you constantly because they want to be petted and you don't have to do anything to get that response.


----------



## Stonevintage

Mine could care less for pets. If you pet her she will raise her paw and scoot your hand down to where she wants to be scratched instead. Just under the neck on her chest...looooves that!


----------



## dogma13

Yeah,I know there are ways to force her to recall reliably.I'm happy with her and appreciate the way she is.Once when juggling all three leashes at my daughter's place I dropped Misty's and she ran off happily of course,peeking around the neighbor's houses when I called her,farther away each time.I put the other two inside,armed myself with lunch meat,praying I could keep her away from the nearby busy road.When I opened the door she was on the porch looking very pleased with herself and came right in.Next visit,one dog at a time.

The few times I've really needed her to come to me she always has.I've no clue how she can read certain situations.Maybe she senses danger or feels unsure and comes to me for safety?


----------



## Muskeg

Really informative discussion. There are few places you can have a spirited discussion with different views these days, and I feel like people on this thread have been super respectful of different opinions and shared a lot of pretty unique information you won't find many other places, without getting personal! This is great! 

I tend to learn best when I have a working understanding of the foundation. That is why I found that video I posted of the trainer just talking to be really useful. I geek out that way, it works for me. Others might be more intuitive, but without that basic knowledge things can go wrong. 

Cesar would be an example of a very intuitive dog "behaviorist" who really is quite talented. But he fails in some ways because he just lacks an understanding of the fundamentals.

I learn best listening or reading an experienced trainer's explanation of the "nuts and bolts" of how to do something, and then applying it to my dogs. As opposed to watching a trainer who is training a dog without understanding what I am seeing and without knowing the dog or his background. 

Both Bailiff and Slam have a wealth of experience working dogs off this foundation. People can learn a lot just reading their posts. 

And there's no shame in saying you messed up or made a mistake or are wrong about something- it's a process, you can't absorb and learn it all in one go! 

Just yesterday I realized I was timing a correction all wrong. I kicked myself, praised my dog, and fixed it. It's the little stuff, too that can make a difference. Like understanding breathing or trying to see what a dog is responding too. My big dog just loves touch. A reward for him is simply leaning into me a bit on a heel. So I encourage that. It works really well for him, gives him a thing to do and an understanding of his job. 

Training is really all about building understanding in a dog of what you want and what you don't want. A dog will love to work with you if he clearly understands what he is supposed to do and gets rewarded for it- even if the reward is just the work itself.


----------



## Muskeg

MAWL- sorry to be catching up so late, here, but can you describe what you saw in the "after" Gellman video that bothered you? I think I saw what you are seeing, for sure, but thought it was worth explicitly posting just for sake of discussion.

I think it's useful to talk about the process and what "rehab" means and what "management" means. I have my own ideas on all this, but that's just me, I'll learn more or maybe think about things in a different way if I can hear input from others. Which is the whole point of a discussion forum, I think. 

"Rehab" could mean back to former state. For example, I hurt my shoulder and couldn't use it at all. So I went to a physical therapist, did all the exercises, stretches and massage and my shoulder went back to useable and almost as good as new. 

Or rehab could be a means to recover and learn how to cope with an addiction - as in go to rehab for a heroin addiction. Unless maintained, many addicts are prone to further addictive behaviors- they are always, in some ways "managing" their addiction, even if they are not abusing drugs and never will again in their lives. 

Make sense? I think dog rehab is more like the latter. Even to the point where a dog is "addicted" to the high it used to get from it's reactive behavior. I don't want to take the analogy too far, but this is why the term "rehab" as so ill-defined in dog training bugs me.


----------



## Stonevintage

I never picked at Caesar's stuff. I don't know enough to see what he's doing wrong. The video training & reality shows in general though...

Lol - you remember that old TV show where the guy painted pictures and talked about it as he went along? I have a retired friend that made his career as an artist. He painted old barns and wagons - western scenes. He got pretty well known, had one of his paintings in the White House, went to Russia as an invited guest and painted there for a while. He loved that show!

All his life, he would get questions on how do you do this, or how that and he would refer beginners to that guy and that show. But, OMG - who could sit and learn and absorb that droll monotone voice and so little activity??? Watching that paint brush dip into another color was about as action packed as it got. Only another artist...

The way that type of information is communicated today.:surprise: It's got to sell products or more training tapes or has to meet the network viewership requirements ... every kid movie has a whole line of toys designed to sell from it. How much are we seeing from the original instructor or trainer and how much is it altered to meet parallel or aftermarket sales? Maybe some day Caesar will publish a tell all book on just how much of that whole conglomeration was him and how much was hype to keep viewership and products selling.


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## dogma13

Muskeg said:


> MAWL- sorry to be catching up so late, here, but can you describe what you saw in the "after" Gellman video that bothered you? I think I saw what you are seeing, for sure, but thought it was worth explicitly posting just for sake of discussion.
> 
> I think it's useful to talk about the process and what "rehab" means and what "management" means. I have my own ideas on all this, but that's just me, I'll learn more or maybe think about things in a different way if I can hear input from others. Which is the whole point of a discussion forum, I think.
> 
> "Rehab" could mean back to former state. For example, I hurt my shoulder and couldn't use it at all. So I went to a physical therapist, did all the exercises, stretches and massage and my shoulder went back to useable and almost as good as new.
> 
> Or rehab could be a means to recover and learn how to cope with an addiction - as in go to rehab for a heroin addiction. Unless maintained, many addicts are prone to further addictive behaviors- they are always, in some ways "managing" their addiction, even if they are not abusing drugs and never will again in their lives.
> 
> Make sense? I think dog rehab is more like the latter. Even to the point where a dog is "addicted" to the high it used to get from it's reactive behavior. I don't want to take the analogy too far, but this is why the term "rehab" as so ill-defined in dog training bugs me.


If you don't mind some thoughts from me....I think if the root cause of reactive behavior is genetic it can only be managed and they can easily backslide if you aren't watching and staying on top of it.Like your addict example.
If it's a learned behavior they can be rehabilitated successfully eventually.

For example Samson for whatever reason was afraid to ride in the car.He's been rehabbed successfully to where he adores car rides.

He's genetically predisposed to be distrustful of strangers and that has to be managed forever.


----------



## Baillif

Artists name was Bob Ross. He got popular largely because of ASMR. "Tingle heads" love the guy. If you want to find out if you're responsive to the effect look up ASMR videos on YouTube and listen to them with headphones on.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> *Now, a loosely fitted prong will do damage and pinch even worse.* A cheap prong will do damage, I only use the HS prong collars.


I think the bolded is a point well worth repeating before anybody advises another to put a prong on it. 

How or why a cheap prong will do damage. 



Slamdunc said:


> Here is the thing with prong collars and dog aggressive dogs, used incorrectly it absolutely can increase aggression. Corrections delivered in the wrong way, poorly timed and coupled with frustration on the owners part can absolutely increase aggression.


Since an incorrectly used prong can increase aggression, could it create aggression where there was none? An example would be using an incorrect correction with a prong while teaching a dog to ignore another dog.



Slamdunc said:


> If you were to drop the leash and the dogs met there would rarely be a serious fight.


:thumbup: 

Yep, this has been my experience as well with most breeds of dogs.



Slamdunc said:


> A prong collar is a pain induced correction, just like an E collar.


This is what I always try to impress. It may not do damage, but if it did not cause pain, it would not be an effective tool.



Slamdunc said:


> Yes, a prong can increase drive and even aggression. We use it all the time in sport work and in my K-9 handling. Tiny nagging pops can bring a dog up in drive and aggression.


Thank you for confirming this.


----------



## Stonevintage

Amazing! I had to go look up ASMR and then the relationship to Bob Ross. This explains why I would put that show on when I was home sick and the house was so quiet it just magnified the misery of the illness. 

Lol - Bob never made me tingle but I'd like to see the results of the study mentioned. My friend will get a laugh when I tell him about the 6 million hits on one of Bob's old videos. 

Happy little trees.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> MAWL- sorry to be catching up so late, here, but can you describe what you saw in the "after" Gellman video that bothered you? I think I saw what you are seeing, for sure, but thought it was worth explicitly posting just for sake of discussion.
> 
> I think it's useful to talk about the process and what "rehab" means and what "management" means. I have my own ideas on all this, but that's just me, I'll learn more or maybe think about things in a different way if I can hear input from others. Which is the whole point of a discussion forum, I think.
> 
> "Rehab" could mean back to former state. For example, I hurt my shoulder and couldn't use it at all. So I went to a physical therapist, did all the exercises, stretches and massage and my shoulder went back to useable and almost as good as new.
> 
> Or rehab could be a means to recover and learn how to cope with an addiction - as in go to rehab for a heroin addiction. Unless maintained, many addicts are prone to further addictive behaviors- they are always, in some ways "managing" their addiction, even if they are not abusing drugs and never will again in their lives.
> 
> Make sense? I think dog rehab is more like the latter. Even to the point where a dog is "addicted" to the high it used to get from it's reactive behavior. I don't want to take the analogy too far, but this is why the term "rehab" as so ill-defined in dog training bugs me.


There were so many videos I watched! I think that you are talking about the one where the client was happy with the end result of a dog that appeared rather browbeaten, head drooping, tail down, lagging behind on leash, lip licking, just general discomfort. Based on the intent of the video to reflect what can be accomplished at a weekend seminar, I am sure that its behavior was the result of many hard corrections in a very short period of time, but if that is the case, then that is by no way indicative that the dog has been rehabbed or cured. Nor would that final state of behavior be acceptable to me. That is not a happy dog.

Good point about the rehab regarding going back to a former state. But maybe former state needs to be better defined than rehab. If you have a dog that has been genetically bred to be protective, you would not expect it be so at five months but what about at two years of age? So if you are trying to "rehab" such an adult dog to not be protective, would it be rehabbing it back to a former state, i.e., when it was immature at five months or would it become an actual cure, as to what the dog was dealt genetically?

Regarding your second example about the drug addict, once a drug addict, always a drug addict. There is no cure. It must be managed and controlled, usually on a daily basis for those who have the condition. Many believe there are genetic components involved with drug addiction and alcoholism as there are often roots in family history.

To further clarify the addiction question, there are people who dabble in drugs or alcohol once in a while, play weekend warrior with weekend binging, or participate on a daily basis, sometimes heavy, other times not so much. Many people walk away from drugs and alcohol and never look back, they don't struggle daily. Those who can walk away without further to do, were they ever addicts or alcoholics? Why can some people partake heavily while others are addicted with far less use? Can this be likened to bad behavior vs genetics? Maybe, I don't know and I am not aware of any studies done that might suggest a correlation, but then again it is not an area that I follow.


----------



## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> Ok, here is something that needs to be addressed, the proper use of a prong collar. On occasion I go into Petco and see folks coming from their classes with a prong fitted like they slipped it over the dog's head. Actually, I have seen JQP actually do this.
> 
> For a prong collar to be effective it must be tight and directly under the mandibles. It should be high on the neck and right under the ears. It should not spin easily and should stay in place. There should only be a relatively short movement of the chain when giving corrections.
> 
> Next, to the point that a prong will not hurt your dog when used and "fitted" properly that is true. Choke chains do far more damage. There are studies of dogs in Germany, hundreds of dogs showing the difference. Now, a loosely fitted prong will do damage and pinch even worse. A cheap prong will do damage, I only use the HS prong collars.
> 
> Here is the thing with prong collars and dog aggressive dogs, used incorrectly it absolutely can increase aggression. Corrections delivered in the wrong way, poorly timed and coupled with frustration on the owners part can absolutely increase aggression.
> 
> Most dogs that owners think are dog aggressive really aren't that aggressive, they are poorly behaved and improperly handled, IME. JQP has trouble reading dogs and some dogs are barking to play, or simply frustrated and reacting to the dogs they see. Most have learned to be reactive because the owner sees a dog coming, tenses up, gets a death grip on the leash and gets nervous or anxious. This is immediately translated to the dog, who has been unintentionally trained to think something bad is about to happen. All because of the owner's nervousness. The leash is like a telegraph line, what ever you is immediately sent to the dog directly through the leash. Your body language is the other big communicator. Why do you think the Cesar or this guy "Jeff" make a big deal out of being relaxed and your persona? It is so easy to see how it effects the dog.
> 
> If you can not control yourself you will never be able to control a dog.
> 
> Now, most dogs, like the black lab or mutt in one of "Jeff's" videos are simply acting out. Not really dog aggressive (poorly behaved), they really don't want to fight. They are posturing because they don't know what else to do. They lack the training and socialization (as their handler's do also) to know how to act. IMHO, this isn't really dog aggression but an out of control dog. The dog is not vicious and doesn't really want to bite anyone. For this dog a prong is perfect. A soft dog, a 4-5 on my scale of harness and not leash or handler aggressive. A quick pop and you are good to go. That is 95% of the dogs out there. That is 95% of the GSD's out there. They are really not DA just "PB."
> 
> These dogs are really not DA, but because they bark like crazy at another dog their owners thinks they are super DA. That is generally not the case at all. Put a prong collar on the dog, take a deep breath, compose yourself and go for a walk. Don't take that silly nonsense from your dog, correct for poor behavior and move on. Praise appropriately for your dog when correct and have a nice day. This really isn't rocket science and it's really not that hard with 98% of the dogs in the world. JQP's poorly behaved (not DA) dog wants to learn how to act, wants to go for walks with out stress just like it's owner.
> 
> Because your dog barks at other dogs does not make it dog aggressive. Even dogs that seemingly go crazy, hackles up at the sight of another dog may only be slightly dog aggressive. If you were to drop the leash and the dogs met there would rarely be a serious fight.
> 
> The trick is to be able to read the dog. But, it really doesn't even matter because you are responsible for your dog. If your dog is so poorly behaved (substituted for DA) then it's your (JQP's) job to handle and control your dog. It's really a simple concept, step up and take charge. OR keep your dog in your fenced yard.
> 
> Dogs charging a fence and barking are not necessarily DA, it's what dogs do, especially when guarding their territory.
> 
> If you want to keep your dog out of control and seemingly DA, simply walk by another dog with your leash tightly wrapped around your hand and let your dog pull till he nearly chokes himself out. Look at the dogs on "Jeff's" video. That is exactly what the owner did and he didn't. You need to walk your dogs on a loose leash, tension creates frustration. If I want my patrol to get aggressive, I simply hold him back, by the collar is even better and he gets it. If you are in the habit of dragging your dog by other dogs while your dog is barking, you are instilling this poor behavior.
> 
> With the other 1 or 2% of dog that are truly aggressive and can potentially show displaced aggression or handler aggression, a prong can make this worse. A prong collar is a pain induced correction, just like an E collar. I have discussed this many times on this forum and elsewhere. Some dogs when corrected harshly will redirect and bite the handler. Generally, this is do to a poor relationship, ineffective leadership or the rules not consistently applied. But, it could also be a dog that redirects when it experiences pain. Few people have dogs like this. So, JQP should not go thinking "this is my dog!" Like most people think there dog is "civil."
> 
> If you have issues where your dog has growled at you, shown it's teeth over a bone or a correction or actually bit you, then be careful with a prong. Hard corrections from a prong can escalate aggression and cause a dog like that to turn and bite you. Everything is a balance, you may need to correct a dog like that much harder to extinguish the behavior and cause the dog to stop immediately. Slightly less, may get you a nice fur jacket hanging from your arm. Same with too much. Or, better yet go to a nylon slip collar and not use a prong. This is where professional help is a benefit.
> 
> Yes, a prong can increase drive and even aggression. We use it all the time in sport work and in my K-9 handling. Tiny nagging pops can bring a dog up in drive and aggression. Strong corrections extinguish drive and can control aggression or stop an undesirable behavior. It is a finesse tool. JQP generally lacks the finesse, presence and technique to control a seemingly DA dog. That is where the problems start.
> 
> I'm sure this is too much to read. A prong is a fantastic training tool, used correctly. It won't solve all your problems, unless you can read your dog and use the collar effectively. It is not meant to help you drag your dog past other dogs. >


Excellent and outstanding!!! 

Way beyond my "Put drive in or take Drive out!" This is why a lot of us "sigh" ... when newbies are urged to put a dog on the dog to "solve" issues. :crazy:

Thanks for yet again taking the time! This an effort truly worth of a Houndy ... Baillif got one also. 










Gotta catch up here myself.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Interesting body language on this now "balanced" (as the owner called it) dog when in the presence of other dogs. If my dogs presented like that after training, I wouldn't be a happy camper.


LOL it's what a one day seminar?? Most likely that dog had never been that close to another dog in it's life??

Mostly now that "she" understands how to get it right ... the dog will get better. Baby steps if the dog and owner are learning. 

In anycase, it looked fine to me but I'am not a "Pro."


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## Stonevintage

I don't this pup's going to be DA. He looks like he knows how to relax.:grin2: This is from a "submit your pet photo day our local newspaper did today - couldn't resist posting it. He's a 5 mo old bloodhound puppy and camping out 1st time!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> LOL it's what a one day seminar?? Most likely that dog had never been that close to another dog in it's life??
> 
> Mostly now that "she" understands how to get it right ... the dog will get better. Baby steps if the dog and owner are learning.
> 
> In anycase, it looked fine to me but I'am not a "Pro."


Looked fine? That dog looked like it got the beejezuz whooped out of it. I know it is a weekend seminar, but no dog should spend its life feeling like that. Euthanasia would be kinder.


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## Muskeg

Thanks MAWL- that's why I didn't want to go too far with drug rehab comparison. The point I'm trying to make is that "rehab" for a dog should be defined. It means so many different things to different people. For most JQP with a problem dog I think they believe a dog is fixed once "rehabbed". Unfair for a trainer to imply that -if he does. I don't know what Gellman says post board and train or what kind of work he does with dog and owner. 

As far as fixed, what does that mean? Is a protective GSD true to his genetics really in need of fix or does he just need competent handling, training, and management? 

You don't rehab a dog in a day, unless there wasn't much of an issue to begin with (and that is the case for many dogs). 

Changes can happen very fast in dog training, but long-term rehab is a touchy issue, and people need to know that if they're paying $3500 for a board and train, because their dog is so very unmanageable, most likely the dog has issues that won't be simply fixed. They'll be managed in some way for life.


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## Baillif

I don't see what the big deal is. Guess what? All behavior if you want it to occur or not occur needs to be maintained through consequences good or bad for the life of the dog. They're animals. People should know by now that the handler needs to have a say in everything the dog does or doesn't do and respond appropriately to see what they want to see happen. Teach a dog to sit with treats? Stop giving any reward or using any pressure and see how long it takes for that dog to blow you off. 

Nobody can train a dog to be obedient and not have issues 100% of the time. They are not robots. I can't stick a chip in their brains and have them all of a sudden obey everything at all times. It doesn't work like that and for whatever reason a good chunk of the US population out there believes that.

All people need to know maintaining training is for the life of the dog. This is the case regardless of the behavior. I trained Crank into a well oiled machine. I could hand him off to someone off the street and if I didn't tell them how to maintain behavior it wouldn't be long before I got a phone call claiming that the dog wasn't trained and was causing a ton of problems. Aggression probably might even be one of them even though I never have an issue with the guy.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Thanks MAWL- that's why I didn't want to go too far with drug rehab comparison. The point I'm trying to make is that "rehab" for a dog should be defined. It means so many different things to different people. For most JQP with a problem dog I think they believe a dog is fixed once "rehabbed". Unfair for a trainer to imply that -if he does. I don't know what Gellman says post board and train or what kind of work he does with dog and owner.
> 
> As far as fixed, what does that mean? Is a protective GSD true to his genetics really in need of fix or does he just need competent handling, training, and management?
> 
> You don't rehab a dog in a day, unless there wasn't much of an issue to begin with (and that is the case for many dogs).
> 
> Changes can happen very fast in dog training, but long-term rehab is a touchy issue, and people need to know that if they're paying $3500 for a board and train, because their dog is so very unmanageable, most likely the dog has issues that won't be simply fixed. They'll be managed in some way for life.



IMO, rehab like you stated, is to restore to a point prior to the behavior, but it can't necessarily be applied to an immature dog. I think JQP is seriously misguided about dogs in general with way too many entrenched 100% in raising and training and every dog is a blank slate, the heck with genetics.

My comment regarding "fixing" a protective GSD was more a comment of frustration on my part with people not doing their research and getting a GSD and then thinking it is broken when, and if, it becomes protective. See paragraph above regarding the blank slate and genetics. 

Regarding expensive board and train, I agree. I believe you can suppress or enhance inherent traits, but you can't fix, cure, or rehab them out of the dog. I believe you will manage the newly created behaviors for life. Even the best of trained dogs can fail.


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## Muskeg

Not a big deal, at all, and it is just common sense, but yeah, it really boils down to the "it's how they're raised" notion that genetics don't matter and dogs are only aggressive when you train them to be. 

I'm totally preaching to the choir here, though.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Not a big deal, at all, and it is just common sense, but yeah, it really boils down to the "it's how they're raised" notion that genetics don't matter and dogs are only aggressive when you train them to be.
> 
> I'm totally preaching to the choir here, though.


I wouldn't say you are preaching to the choir. There are many members on this forum (not necessarily this thread) that don't buy into nature.


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## dogma13

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Looked fine? That dog looked like it got the beejezuz whooped out of it. I know it is a weekend seminar, but no dog should spend its life feeling like that. Euthanasia would be kinder.


Whenever I watch a training video I have found I learn so much more with the sound turned off and just watching the dog and trainer interacting.Then I can see for myself what's really happening instead of the trainer telling me what to see.What they are claiming frequently does not jive with what I am seeing when I watch again with sound.So many are like fast talking salesman


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## MineAreWorkingline

dogma13 said:


> Whenever I watch a training video I have found I learn so much more with the sound turned off and just watching the dog and trainer interacting.Then I can see for myself what's really happening instead of the trainer telling me what to see.What they are claiming frequently does not jive with what I am seeing when I watch again with sound.So many are like fast talking salesman


That is a good practice. As I stated earlier in this thread about these videos, I don't need somebody to do my thinking for me. :smile2:


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## Stonevintage

Reminds me of the conversation I heard "deep in the heart of Texas"....

"Once a chicken killer, always a chicken killer".

"No Sir - You just take a dead chicken and tie it around their neck and leave it for a few days". "That dog will never go near a chicken again".


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> I don't see what the big deal is. Guess what? All behavior if you want it to occur or not occur needs to be maintained through consequences good or bad for the life of the dog. They're animals. People should know by now that the handler needs to have a say in everything the dog does or doesn't do and respond appropriately to see what they want to see happen. Teach a dog to sit with treats? Stop giving any reward or using any pressure and see how long it takes for that dog to blow you off.
> 
> Nobody can train a dog to be obedient and not have issues 100% of the time. They are not robots. I can't stick a chip in their brains and have them all of a sudden obey everything at all times. It doesn't work like that and for whatever reason a good chunk of the US population out there believes that.
> 
> All people need to know maintaining training is for the life of the dog. This is the case regardless of the behavior. I trained Crank into a well oiled machine. I could hand him off to someone off the street and if I didn't tell them how to maintain behavior it wouldn't be long before I got a phone call claiming that the dog wasn't trained and was causing a ton of problems. Aggression probably might even be one of them even though I never have an issue with the guy.


Very much agreed.

The big deal is that the bottomline is there are no permanent "rehabs" or "cures" for inherent dog issues as purported by some popular dog trainers, just lifetime management and control by a variety of means. This "secret" is being withheld from the public by those same popular trainers.

Problem #2 In the case of dog / animal aggression, these same trainers touting cures and rehabs for inherent conditions are setting their clients up to use other people's pets as bait. 

I find a lot wrong with both practices.


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## Baillif

Jeff isn't the kind of guy to hold that information back. The problem is people tend to hear what they want to hear rather than hear what the trainers are actually saying. Even the dog whisperer makes it clear a dog can backslide on behavior if it is allowed to. People hear rehab and automatically assume it's fixed forever. That doesn't necessarily happen even with people. People bounce in and out of rehab all the time. Now in the case of dogs that doesn't happen as long as the owner continues to stay on top of things. The problem is often this is not the case. It is a problem with either the education of the owner, the character of the owner, or the will of the owner.

All I know is I do my best but I know not to be more invested in the success of the dog than the owner because that usually leads to heart break. Sometimes I feel like a heart surgeon that just got done doing a triple bypass only to see his patient against orders and all sound medical advice sucking down cheese burgers at In and Out. Disappointing? Sure but I don't really do it for them. The ones that get it right and listen and make a real effort, those are the ones that make up for all the ones that make you want to pull your hair out. 

Either way I benefit. I get paid regardless if they want to waste the money oh well. Spends the same. I also hone my craft and what I learn may be what benefits my dogs or someone else's down the line. I try not to let it bother me for longer than it needs to.


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## voodoolamb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Very much agreed.
> 
> The big deal is that the bottomline is there are no permanent "rehabs" or "cures" for inherent dog issues as purported by some popular dog trainers, just lifetime management and control by a variety of means. This "secret" is being withheld from the public by those same popular trainers.
> 
> Problem #2 In the case of dog / animal aggression, these same trainers touting cures and rehabs for inherent conditions are setting their clients up to use other people's pets as bait.
> 
> I find a lot wrong with both practices.


Absolutely agree. 

And the worst part is that this public perception makes the "responsible" owners of dogs with genetic aggression look like fools. 

So many times I was told that all my pit needed was some training. Multiple strangers told me I should try to write to Ceaser Milan and get on his show. So my dog could be "rehabed" and go and join in on all the fun doggie games.

No thanks. My guy was trained. He got his CGC and CDX. I had control of him around other dogs. He walked by them nicely without a growl, bark or lunge. 

But I wasn't doing it right. Because my goal wasn't to make him play with other dogs.


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## Stonevintage

voodoolamb said:


> Absolutely agree.
> 
> And the worst part is that this public perception makes the "responsible" owners of dogs with genetic aggression look like fools.
> 
> So many times I was told that all my pit needed was some training. Multiple strangers told me I should try to write to Ceaser Milan and get on his show. So my dog could be "rehabed" and go and join in on all the fun doggie games.
> 
> No thanks. My guy was trained. He got his CGC and CDX. I had control of him around other dogs. He walked by them nicely without a growl, bark or lunge.
> 
> But I wasn't doing it right. Because my goal wasn't to make him play with other dogs.


Did you every have occasion with him to have to face on off leash dog that was threatening?


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## voodoolamb

Stonevintage said:


> Did you every have occasion with him to have to face on off leash dog that was threatening?


A handful of times. He was put into a sit stay and I fended off the would be attacker. Pepper spray worked well.

If the other dog was friendly. Focused heel as we walked on by. Didn't allow him to pay attention to it.

Lots and lots of obedience work with that boy to make him safe in public.


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## Stonevintage

voodoolamb said:


> A handful of times. He was put into a sit stay and I fended off the would be attacker. Pepper spray worked well.
> 
> If the other dog was friendly. Focused heel as we walked on by. Didn't allow him to pay attention to it.
> 
> Lots and lots of obedience work with that boy to make him safe in public.


Thanks. Good to know the spray worked. I decided to add a tent stake to my "dog walking bag". (vampire hunting?) I'd be sorry forever if one was ever needed and I decided not to simply carry one - at that point, doesn't matter a darn who should have what on them if there's a problem. 

lol. My "dog walking bag" doesn't look too ridiculous. In fact, it's rather Vtg stylish.:smile2: It's one of those woven ones from india with the open top for easy access. The strap's long enough that I can wear it crossbody.

For Slam - no need to respond, but I want you to know, that the backup leash will be going into the bag as well. So she will simply have the prong/back up collar and leash with connector. :wink2:


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## Stonevintage

Goodbye.


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## Jenny720

I just wanted to add on the way your dog picks up body language and breathing. Body language is how they communicate so they are very in tune with you. We live at a dead end and when go for walks there is no other way but to pass this house with a chow who always sits in the front yard loose. I assumed they had a electric fence or he was chained. In 12 years we lived here I never seen the dog leave the property as we walked by. I was walking by with max as we passed this house with a chow and with max paying attention to me -I turned my head and saw the chow leaving his property crossing the street - he almost got hit by a car - and was heading right over to us. I noticed the first thing I did was hold my breath- even though we kept walking I was not breathing which made by body stiff up and tense which caused max to turn his head to see who was behind us. I scanned to see what I can throw at it if I had to -which would of been only many snowballs. As we walked i made sure I started to breath and as the dog just followed behind us with some distance he eventually turned around and went home. I found breathing along with keeping no tension in the leash, is also communicating to my dog no worries.


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## Jenny720

Great thread tons of information.


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## Chip18

Jenny720 said:


> I just wanted to add on the way your dog picks up body language and breathing. Body language is how they communicate so they are very in tune with you. We live at a dead end and when go for walks there is no other way but to pass this house with a chow who always sits in the front yard loose. I assumed they had a electric fence or he was chained. In 12 years we lived here I never seen the dog leave the property as we walked by. I was walking by with max as we passed this house with a chow and with max paying attention to me -I turned my head and saw the chow leaving his property crossing the street - he almost got hit by a car - and was heading right over to us. I noticed the first thing I did was hold my breath- even though we kept walking I was not breathing which made by body stiff up and tense which caused max to turn his head to see who was behind us. I scanned to see what I can throw at it if I had to -which would of been only many snowballs. As we walked i made sure I started to breath and as the dog just followed behind us with some distance he eventually turned around and went home. I found breathing along with keeping no tension in the leash, is also communicating to my dog no worries.


I of course have no idea about those neighbors but you might want to let them know the dog left the property?? 

They may not have any idea that happened??


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## Jenny720

Ahh yes the have been reminded more then once. Since back then he is still out front.


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