# Need Some Help



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi All, my name is Mike and I am new this forum. I am having a problem with my 2 yr old female GS, she is fixed, we have another dog a mini Aussie which is about 6 yrs old he is also fixed. Here is the problem they have gotten along pretty good except a few minor mix-ups. However last night I believe that my GS wanted to kill the other dog, she had him by the throat and was shaking her head very hard to the left and right. It took everything me and my wife had to get them apart. Lucky the mini has a very thick coat or I believe he would have been killed. 

Now this GSD since she was a pup has been very shy, at least that's what the dog trainer called it at petsmart puppy school. I don't really trust her around other people or my grand kids. We are leaning toward putting her down. We love this dog, but if you can't trust her what are you to do. My wifes mother went through something like this years ago. She had a very shy GS that attacked my dog, hurt it bad. She did nothing about the problem after this. About a year later they came home to find their Queensland Heeler dead on the front porch with its throat ripped out. Does anyone have any ideas, could this dog just be bad? Don't get me wrong she is fine around me and my wife.


----------



## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You need to find a good behaviorist to evaluate this dog. Maybe someone on here has some ideas of folks in your area. Or contact a GSD rescue and ask who they would recommend. I think you need a professional to assess this dog. No one on line can tell you with certainty what to do other than at this moment you have to keep those dogs separate. 

Karin


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

Karin thanks for the reply, we are looking. We are also keeping the dogs away from each other at the moment. I'm lucky I'm off work this next week so it possible to keep them apart for now.


----------



## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Hi All, my name is Mike and I am new this forum. I am having a problem with my 2 yr old female GS, she is fixed, we have another dog a mini Aussie which is about 6 yrs old he is also fixed. Here is the problem they have gotten along pretty good except a few minor mix-ups. However last night I believe that my GS wanted to kill the other dog, she had him by the throat and was shaking her head very hard to the left and right. It took everything me and my wife had to get them apart. Lucky the mini has a very thick coat or I believe he would have been killed.
> 
> Now this GSD since she was a pup has been very shy, at least that's what the dog trainer called it at petsmart puppy school. I don't really trust her around other people or my grand kids. We are leaning toward putting her down. We love this dog, but if you can't trust her what are you to do. My wifes mother went through something like this years ago. She had a very shy GS that attacked my dog, hurt it bad. She did nothing about the problem after this. About a year later they came home to find their Queensland Heeler dead on the front porch with its throat ripped out. Does anyone have any ideas, could this dog just be bad? Don't get me wrong she is fine around me and my wife.


Mike, why in the **** are you leaning towards putting this dog down? You've made it pretty clear that you have no idea what caused caused this fight, from the "trainer at petsmart puppy school" comment I can only assume you've got no understanding of training or handling dogs, and your first reaction is to consider killing this poor animal? 

Give your head a shake. You're way out of your league, and are very likely to be directly responsible for the dog's poor behaviour (due to your own in/actions and choices). Killing the dog is not an answer; it is not even an option. Give this dog up to an owner that will be able to handle her, or (at a minimum!) a no-kill shelter where she'll at least have a chance to have the life she deserves.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Why do you have to be home to keep the dogs seperated? It can be done while it is not a lot of fun. 
I'm kinda frustrated because there is no indication that much work has been done with either dog. I'd like to see them both given jobs and worked on a regular basis as well as seperated to avoid possible injury.


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

Hey I never claimed to be a dog trainer, I was just letting folks know how this dog was when I first got her as a puppy. That's what I was told and I'm not saying they are dog trainers either. But she did what she did then as a puppy and now. Bottom line I can't own a dog I can't trust. I have owned many dogs in my life, never one like this, the only other one I knew like this injured my dog and ended up killing another, yes another GS. I came here in hopes of someone else having a similar type problem and helping me out to save and keep this dog. I've spent the last day and half reading things about GS and dogs just like mine. The consensus is when they are shy and aggressive toward people and other animals they can't be completely fixed. Some not at all. And as far as a no kill shelter, I live in Los Angeles there are thousands of unwanted dogs here. Maybe I came looking for answers at the wrong place.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Putting a dog down for dog aggression is something I don't understand. Humans choose to own dogs, they choose to have multiple dogs, they raise them, they train them, they fail to train them, they fail to manage them with leadership and or containment, and when their dogs get into a scrap, they consider putting one of them down. 

Ok, you can have a dog who is genetically flawed. Possible. When a family has two dogs that are genetically flawed in the exact same way, I wonder if the two were related in some way, or if this is a problem with the environment -- how they are handled. I think it is pretty strange for a GSD to tear the throat out of another dog. I have seen punctures on the shoulder, foreleg, the muzzle, and even the back, but I haven't seen a dog tear the throat out of another dog. That is odd. 

Let's for the sake of argument say the dog has weak nerves. She is shy, and now she has attacked the other dog. Our first thought is to put her down. Wow. Yes there are shy GSDs out there. There are books about helping shy dogs. There are classes you can take to build confidence with a dog that has little confidence.

As for the dog-dog stuff, well, you chose to have two animals. Everyone who chooses to have more than one needs to have a plan in case they don't want to be play nice. Putting one of the dogs down isn't a plan.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Hey I never claimed to be a dog trainer, I was just letting folks know how this dog was when I first got her as a puppy. That's what I was told and I'm not saying they are dog trainers either. But she did what she did then as a puppy and now. Bottom line I can't own a dog I can't trust. I have owned many dogs in my life, never one like this, the only other one I knew like this injured my dog and ended up killing another, yes another GS. I came here in hopes of someone else having a similar type problem and helping me out to save and keep this dog. I've spent the last day and half reading things about GS and dogs just like mine. The consensus is when they are shy and aggressive toward people and other animals they can't be completely fixed. Some not at all. And as far as a no kill shelter, I live in Los Angeles there are thousands of unwanted dogs here. Maybe I came looking for answers at the wrong place.


I am sorry for your bitch. 

She has lived for two years in a home whose people have no feelings for her, who are willing to put her down without batting an eye, without trying to figure out what it is that she needs and how to get it for her.

So sorry, I can't tell you what you want to hear. This is on you. If you wanted to help your dog you would be asking for trainers, behaviorists, references of people who can address her issues. You would be asking about what you could do differently to manage your dogs better, to keep your dogs safe. 

Just another person who wants to hear affirmation for what he wants to do. And if you say anything else, then we are all a bunch of bullies or something.


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

Ok, you can have a dog who is genetically flawed. Possible. When a family has two dogs that are genetically flawed in the exact same way, I wonder if the two were related in some way, or if this is a problem with the environment -- how they are handled. I think it is pretty strange for a GSD to tear the throat out of another dog. I have seen punctures on the shoulder, foreleg, the muzzle, and even the back, but I haven't seen a dog tear the throat out of another dog. That is odd. 


So now I'm liar too, you people really are something else. I wasn't there that's what I was told. Regardless the dog died I was told there was blood everywhere. Thanks for all the constructive help you people are awesome


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Ok, you can have a dog who is genetically flawed. Possible. When a family has two dogs that are genetically flawed in the exact same way, I wonder if the two were related in some way, or if this is a problem with the environment -- how they are handled. I think it is pretty strange for a GSD to tear the throat out of another dog. I have seen punctures on the shoulder, foreleg, the muzzle, and even the back, but I haven't seen a dog tear the throat out of another dog. That is odd.
> 
> 
> So now I'm liar too, you people really are something else. I wasn't there that's what I was told. Regardless the dog died I was told there was blood everywhere. Thanks for all the constructive help you people are awesome


It is odd for a GSD to kill that way. Bitches sometimes kill each other -- people come home to one dead (blood bath) and the other needing to be euthanized. Not common, but not unheard of. When people want multiple bitches they need to have a plan in case they do not get along. And keeping them separate when you are not able to supervise is typical. 

Not necessarily calling you a liar to say it is odd. Wondering if it is genetic -- multiple dogs same issue, or something going on in the management/leadership to have similar issues cropping up.


----------



## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Heitzenrotor said:


> So now I'm liar too, you people really are something else. I wasn't there that's what I was told. Regardless the dog died I was told there was blood everywhere. Thanks for all the constructive help you people are awesome


The "constructive help" is that you don't have a clue of what you're doing with that GSD, you set the dog up to fail, and are now willing to kill it for your mistakes. Despicable.

Keep the dogs separated and re-home the GSD the first chance you get.


----------



## BauerWhite (Mar 18, 2015)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Hi All, my name is Mike and I am new this forum. I am having a problem with my 2 yr old female GS, she is fixed, we have another dog a mini Aussie which is about 6 yrs old he is also fixed. Here is the problem they have gotten along pretty good except a few minor mix-ups. However last night I believe that my GS wanted to kill the other dog, she had him by the throat and was shaking her head very hard to the left and right. It took everything me and my wife had to get them apart. Lucky the mini has a very thick coat or I believe he would have been killed.
> 
> Now this GSD since she was a pup has been very shy, at least that's what the dog trainer called it at petsmart puppy school. I don't really trust her around other people or my grand kids. We are leaning toward putting her down. We love this dog, but if you can't trust her what are you to do. My wifes mother went through something like this years ago. She had a very shy GS that attacked my dog, hurt it bad. She did nothing about the problem after this. About a year later they came home to find their Queensland Heeler dead on the front porch with its throat ripped out. Does anyone have any ideas, *could this dog just be bad?* Don't get me wrong she is fine around me and my wife.


From reading your posts, it's probably not the dog that is bad... it's the owners who are bad.

These are german shepherds... not golden retrievers. They're serious dogs. If you don't raise them right, they can be very dangerous. 

How much exercise does this dog get per day? Probably not a whole lot I'm guessing. Has the dog ever been to obedience training?

My guess is that you didn't put a whole lot of effort into training and socializing your dog and now you've got a dog that is not well behaved and not well adjusted. You could probably fix these things, but I doubt you will put in the effort. You probably think it's easier to just kill the poor dog. Hopefully you'll at least spend the time to find the dog a good home.


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

It is odd for a GSD to kill that way. Bitches sometimes kill each other -- people come home to one dead (blood bath) and the other needing to be euthanized. Not common, but not unheard of. When people want multiple bitches they need to have a plan in case they do not get along. And keeping them separate when you are not able to supervise is typical. 

Not necessarily calling you a liar to say it is odd. Wondering if it is genetic -- multiple dogs same issue, or something going on in the management/leadership to have similar issues cropping up. 
__________________
Selzer those dogs were not mine, they belonged to my mother in law. Missy that was the dogs name, she was her 4th GS dog that they owned. I thought when she brought it home it wasn't quite right. It would hide under things and would not come out, that seemed really strange to me for a puppy to act like that. (My dog did not do that but she was shy) The dog she killed was a male. I don't know if either of them were fixed or not. This all went down in the late 80s. I didn't live there I just visited them. The dogs are not related.

Now this isn't just for you but why are you people attacking me, you are acting like I'm sitting on top of this dog with a knife to her throat. I want to keep this dog, you people are missing the most important part of this. We love our dogs both of them. We don't want to put any of them down. But I also don't want to come home from work and find Jake dead on my porch either. (Yes he is not a German Shepherd but he has a name) I don't want to live in fear of what could happen. I have owned multiple dogs my entire adult life, and have never had a problem. Schatzi is actually replacing my Australian Shepherd that passed away a few years ago at the age of 13 from cancer. Maybe GS aren't for me that might be true, but I have owned many different dog breeds, many of them living together with no problems. So with all that being said are we going to come up with some ideas on how I can fix this or are we going to keep bantering, which is really wasting my time. How do I post picture, I'd like you to see Schatzi she is really a pretty dog


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How much training have either dog had? What kind of exercise do you do with them? Seperate? Together? What was the fight over(you might have said but I'm in type mode here and can't go back)? Your best shot is male/female, but it always depends on the dogs. Your female is maturing so training should be increased. 

Human and dog aggression are very different. Dog aggression can be managed. So can human aggression, but there is no room for error and its a liability. She doesn't seem to show any signs of human aggression? At this point your afraid of what she can do to the other dog because you seen her power? They are strong dogs in mind, body and spirit.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Selzer those dogs were not mine, they belonged to my mother in law. Missy that was the dogs name, she was her 4th GS dog that they owned. I thought when she brought it home it wasn't quite right. It would hide under things and would not come out, that seemed really strange to me for a puppy to act like that. (My dog did not do that but she was shy) The dog she killed was a male. I don't know if either of them were fixed or not. This all went down in the late 80s. I didn't live there I just visited them. The dogs are not related.
> 
> Now this isn't just for you but why are you people attacking me, you are acting like I'm sitting on top of this dog with a knife to her throat. I want to keep this dog, you people are missing the most important part of this. We love our dogs both of them. We don't want to put any of them down. But I also don't want to come home from work and find Jake dead on my porch either. (Yes he is not a German Shepherd but he has a name) I don't want to live in fear of what could happen. I have owned multiple dogs my entire adult life, and have never had a problem. Schatzi is actually replacing my Australian Shepherd that passed away a few years ago at the age of 13 from cancer. Maybe GS aren't for me that might be true, but I have owned many different dog breeds, many of them living together with no problems. So with all that being said are we going to come up with some ideas on how I can fix this or are we going to keep bantering, which is really wasting my time. How do I post picture, I'd like you to see Schatzi she is really a pretty dog


If you want to keep this dog, and I believe you do, get a qualified behaviorist who knows the breed to have a look at her. More importantly step up. Up the training, up the exercise, up the supervision. Keep them separate when you aren't there, in fact at this point I would keep them separate at all times unless both are leashed.


----------



## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Ok, you can have a dog who is genetically flawed. Possible. When a family has two dogs that are genetically flawed in the exact same way, I wonder if the two were related in some way, or if this is a problem with the environment -- how they are handled. I think it is pretty strange for a GSD to tear the throat out of another dog. I have seen punctures on the shoulder, foreleg, the muzzle, and even the back, but I haven't seen a dog tear the throat out of another dog. That is odd.
> 
> 
> So now I'm liar too, you people really are something else. I wasn't there that's what I was told. Regardless the dog died I was told there was blood everywhere. Thanks for all the constructive help you people are awesome


Don't worry about the self-righteous on here pal. 

Some dogs are just not right from the get-go, not every single flaw with a dog is the human's fault as these do-gooders here would have you believe. 

What i do disagree with though is having it put down.

No chance on earth would i have an aggressive or unpredictable dog around children. People here think it's fine because they either don't have families or they're fine with putting their loved ones in dangerous situations.

However, the solution isn't to get it put down. There is no need to kill this dog because you can't trust it, it is simply better to get it rehomed. The people here trying to belittle you think they know everything about GSD's [despite the fact that some of them can't even do something as simple as feed a carnivorous animal an appropriate diet]and will act like you're some pantomime villain because you're not some super dog whisperer. It doesn't even matter that the way you treat your animals has been successful for years and with dozens of dogs. If you get the one bad-egg it will be your fault because you 'don't know what you're doing'.

Funnily enough, some of those suggesting rehoming here had a go at me in another thread because my family rehomed a dog that was showing aggression to my nephew. Rehoming a dog showing aggression to a human baby = bad, rehoming a dog showing aggression to another dog = the solution. Go figure.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

There are 3 German Shepherd Rescues in L.A/OC, but the two I know best in Los Angeles are swamped. Westside GSR has over 100 dogs right now, and Burbank always stays full at two facilities. I'm no longer in touch with them, but I'd be surprised if they're accepting owner-surrender problem dogs when they are full, given the number of purebred, nice GSDs that are dying in So Cal shelters right now. The numbers of GSDs in public shelters (a/k/a dog pounds) are staggering there--most die within a week if no rescue steps up. 

It would be better to make a good faith effort to fix this problem you created before looking to them. I also want to warn you, as I have to deal with this same problem in my own area now where I do my rescue work: if you plan to rehome on your own, you need to be exquisitely careful. Los Angeles is an area with lots of criminal dog fighting, and the criminals LOVE getting a German Shepherds to use as "bait dogs" because of the fur around their neck, which gives the fighting PBs in training something easy to grab onto. DO NOT advertise you have a dog aggressive GSD on Craigslist -- those criminals will lie a hundred different ways to get that kind of dog to throw in a training pit to be ripped apart. A substantial rehoming fee for a neutered dog ($200-300), a vet reference requirement, and pre-adoption home check are the only viable ways of warding them off. 

I pm'd you two trainers that I know work with two different rescues there. I haven't worked with either one personally as I have been gone from California for a long time, but if they have an affiliated relationship with a rescue, there's a good reason (good results), as no rescue has time to fool around with trainers who don't get results.

Dog aggression CAN be rehabilitated, but you need professional help to do it. As several people have pointed out, you are over your head. You need to get good help ASAP. Crate and rotate for now. Most of the time, I've seen it created by instabilities in the home/pack and lack of human leadership--it sucks to hear, but nothing is more likely to trigger fear aggression than a situation where the dog feels like it needs to be in charge and/or protect the human because the human is perceived as weak. Spend some time thinking carefully and objectively about your pack dynamic in the home. Start practicing NILF (nothing in life is free) with both dogs -- there's lots of websites and threads about this in the archives here, and it ought to become a way of life.

I've successfully rehabbed several young dog-reactive dogs in foster care, and it takes me at least 3-4 months to unwind them. I start with a two-week shut down (there are many old threads on this here). I just saw one of my former fosters (now adopted) that was originally set to be euthanized at a public shelter because she flashed on another dog there on-leash upon intake at the "dog pound." In their behavior assessment, they declared her to be dog aggressive. When I went to evaluate her for rescue, my DH and I spent several hours with her and figured out during her shelter temperament test what was really going on (insecure, didn't read dog social cues well, reacted out of fear of being attacked). She transformed beautifully and was eventually loose with my pack in my house, even playing well with others. Her adopter had her out at a training field with 30 other dogs last weekend, off leash, simply ignoring the other dogs. It was lovely to see -- her adopter followed my advice and stuck with my trainer and is doing everything right. The key was unlocking what was creating it in her -- there may be a different cause in your own dog, and you need an experienced eye to try to diagnose it, and come up with a plan.

I am able to do what I do because I have a good trainer who rehabbed his own rescued GSD's dog aggression. She's now his demo dog in his pet obedience classes -- a bomb-proof, rock solid dog. She started out wanting to eat every other dog she saw at first. She's an incredible dog now. Hopefully you can find someone you trust in L.A. to give you the support and guidance to work through this. In the meantime, keep the dogs separated! Also, acclimate her to a muzzle so that you can walk her safely in the community while you are working through this.


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

OK I'm going to answer all of you in one post. First the mini Aussie for those who don't know are small dogs. From the ground to his shoulder is 15 inches or so. The GS is big I'm 6' tall and her head is at my hip she weights I think 75 lbs at the last time we weighted her. I'm sure I made a mistake getting this dog and I am probably in over my head as some folks here have pointed out. The guy we bought her from I remember he was telling us that some of her Fathers siblings were police dogs as was a few of the Grandfathers siblings. I don't know if that matters or not, I don't know how they pick dogs for jobs like that. It could have all been BS too who knows.

I once had a Doby who was aggressive, I was able to deal with her, but that was a long time ago and I was much younger. She could not be around other dogs either. Much younger, so I work on my feet all day and have pretty bad knees, when I get home I'm pretty much done. So exercise is an issue. I do play with them together and apart, when together if I throw a toy at first they both will go to get it, but he will punk her down, she will drop down and let him get it. He brings it back but not right to me, She will walk up take it out of his mouth and bring it to me. This goes on for a few turns and then she just won't go. Unless I get an Avocado off my tree, I then throw the toy he gets that, and I roll the avocado across the yard and she gets that. I also play bubbles with her she loves to chase them down, we do it every night after she eats. Please remember I live in LA we have small yards. We have second home with a huge yard but its too far away to live there and work here. That was one of the reasons we got her, the place is kind of out there.

What caused the fight, my wife had fed the dogs and about 30 mins had passed, it was a beautiful evening here, she wanted to sit out back with the dogs. So I grabbed two dog treats. And we went out, when I give them treats its always the same she will be on my left he on the right. I tell them to sit give them the treat. She eats hers in about two bites, it takes him longer. What I do is once she is done I call her name and walk away from the other dog. She always comes with me. On this night she didn't, I had to grab her collar walk her away. Which is odd for her normal behavior. Once he was done I let her go they smelled each others spot looking for crumbs. There was I noise on the my back fence maybe a dog the people behind me have small dogs or another animal. They both ran to the fence barked for a second and came back to where we were sitting. She was walking about 3 ft in front of me from right to left, the little guy came up to me on the left side of my chair between it, a table and a wall. So he was kind of boxed in and that's when it happened. It wasn't a little dog scrape this was a brutal attack. I'm pretty sure she wanted to kill him. Even after we broke them up it was extremely hard to hold her until my wife got the little dog inside. And she was howling and screaming it was a very scary situation. I feel She wasn't done with him at that point in time. My right hand did get bit just one little cut and bruised nail. That was my fault.

She has never attacked a person yet, but she don't really seem to like people, she kind of goes into alert mode and backs away from them, that is why my wife is afraid to have her around our grand kids. We had them together about 4 months ago or so, she didn't bite anyone. But she was acting very strange I wasn't comfortable with the situation at all and put her in the house until they left. She loves me that I have no doubt about. Can you safely keep a dog like this, for myself sure no problem. But there are so many things to think about and so many bad things that could happen. My neighbors have a kid who aint quite right upstairs, what if he climbs over the fence in a few years when is older. He is not watched like he should be. Scary to think about what might happen.


----------



## BauerWhite (Mar 18, 2015)

A few questions...

1) How much time does the dog spend in the back yard vs. in the house?
2) How long is the dog left alone for on an average day? (without a human present)
3) How much exercise does the dog get per day? Does the dog go on walks? How much does it run per day? 
4) Are you feeding the dog food that you bought from a grocery store?
5) How much time have you devoted to training the dog? 
6) Is your dog crate trained? 
7) Are the two dogs ever left alone unsupervised?

My guess is that the dog spends most of its life alone in the backyard. It doesn't get enough exercise. Wasn't socialized properly. Wasn't trained sufficiently. Probably not fed properly. You probably purchased the dog from a back-yard breeder. If my assumptions are all correct, that would explain why the dog has behavior issues.


----------



## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

BauerWhite said:


> A few questions...
> 
> 1) How much time does the dog spend in the back yard vs. in the house?
> 2) How long is the dog left alone for on an average day? (without a human present)
> ...


Can you explain this and why it makes a difference regarding temperament?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have two mini aussies and a rather big female shepherd..Certainly big compared to the mini's, the minis' are around 14" and 20lbs while the shepherd is 26" and around 75Lbs. She could very easily kill one of them IF she wanted to. 

I'm not going to address your "people" issues with her, since it sounds like you don't trust her and manage that , minus the kid next door. 

The dog aggression and this incident with your mini, some gsd's just DO NOT LIKE other dogs, HOWEVER, I would think these two would get along ok since the shep was raised with the mini and they are opposite sex..Tho spats can occur, the shaking like she wanted to kill him, definitely would have me on high alert..

For now, I would keep them separated and don't leave them alone together EVER. I would look for a behaviorist to come in and give you some ideas on what's going on, something triggers it, maybe she's just a little to possessive of you and didn't appreciate the mini being close to you? Not acceptable, but that could be one thing to think about. 

My shepherd has never ever laid a tooth in anger on any of my other dogs, cats, chickens..They play rough for sure, but I insist they all have to live together in peace, which they do..

At this point, if you don't trust her with people, and since this happened, I wouldn't trust her right now with the mini either, until you can get a trainer/behaviorist in to evaluate, a plus if you can get a german shepherd savvy person. 

Good luck


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and just wanted to add, some of the comments are not very helpful to the poster, try giving some helpful advice instead of bashing the guy who is here looking for a solution.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

finndog said:


> Don't worry about the self-righteous on here pal.
> 
> Some dogs are just not right from the get-go, not every single flaw with a dog is the human's fault as these do-gooders here would have you believe.
> 
> ...


 Dog aggression and human aggression are two different things entirely. 

You can keep your dog separate from other dogs for the rest of his life, if necessary. 

Keeping a dog from human encounters indefinitely is trickier and the results of a lax moment can be much worse overall. 

But the reality is, these are two different issues, that should be handled differently. A dog may be both HA and DA, but that just means he has more than one issue. DA does not equal HA. It's comparing apples to oranges. Don't do that. It is like suggesting that you dog be treated for hip dysplasia because it has pano. Or that your dog should be treated for giardia because he has an ear infection. 

Taking a dog that is known to be dangerous to humans and putting it in another home, is irresponsible. Either work with the dog yourself or put it down. 

Taking a dog that is known to be dangerous to other dogs, and putting it in another home, that can be a viable solution to all involved. For one thing, a LOT of dog aggression is due to a lack of trust/bond with the current owner. The dog barks, lunges, snaps at the other dog because he has to protect himself because his owner will not. Or a dog is guarding its resources: food, toys, people, because he does not accept that the owner controls these thing, is not sure the owner will allow him to keep these things, etc. 

Sometimes humans encourage a dog's dominance in some areas (without knowing it) and then turn around and give the littler dog a one-up, that the other dog does not understand at all. They cannot direct their outrage at the owner who did that. That would be like us smacking God around when we see someone getting a better deal than we have. Instead we take out our frustration on the dude who has the better deal, or on our own loved ones, Because we cannot hold God at fault.

Dogs are pretty concrete. And they see us as the source of all that is wonderful in the world. If we are confident, and predictable, dogs are relaxed followers. If we are crazy, shy, unpredictable, angry, etc. Dogs will be on edge all the time. Because literally, their world is crumbling. They do not feel safe. And they can't leave us to handle the people stuff which is really totally beyond them. They can't trust us to keep the dog stuff even-keeled either. They will have to fend for themselves. 

It is always a failure on the human side of the question to put a dog down for dog aggression. 

It can be better for the dog, the owner, and the new owner to rehome a dog for dog aggression. 

It is always a failure on the human side of the equation when a dog attacks a second person. 

As long as the attack was not provoked and did not have serious extenuating circumstances, it is generally better for the owner, and the breed, and even the individual dog to put such a critter down, depending on the type of attack and severity.

A dog that does not trust his owner to take care of him, might bark at, growl at, snarl at, and snap at or nip a human before going to a bite. The dog that does these things does them BECAUSE he DOES NOT WANT TO BITE. All we, the human has to do, is pay attention to what the dog is telling us, and it is highly doubtful we will ever have a human bite. 

Dog bites, well, sometimes you can only manage the dog on the other side of your own leash. Sometimes another dog comes into the picture and sis not deterred from making a nuisance of himself with the other dog. Sometimes dogs scrap before we have a chance to stop it. 

It is a reason to up the exercise, up the training, solidify your management and leadership, but not a reason to put an animal down.


----------



## BauerWhite (Mar 18, 2015)

JakodaCD OA said:


> and just wanted to add, some of the comments are not very helpful to the poster, try giving some helpful advice instead of bashing the guy who is here looking for a solution.


I think the reason for some of those comments was the OP saying: "We are leaning toward putting her down." 

If you come on these boards looking for help and admitting your mistakes, people are very helpful. If you come on these boards saying you want to kill your dog because you couldn't be bothered to raise it properly, and you almost let it kill another dog... well, you're gonna piss people off here.


----------



## finndog (Nov 20, 2015)

BauerWhite said:


> I think the reason for some of those comments was the OP saying: "We are leaning toward putting her down."
> 
> If you come on these boards looking for help and admitting your mistakes, people are very helpful. If you come on these boards saying you want to kill your dog because you couldn't be bothered to raise it properly, *and you almost let it kill another dog*... well, you're gonna piss people off here.


Please. Reign your apron strings in lady.

How is a person who raised several good dogs to blame for one dogs random attack?

He never 'allowed' it to attack another dog. Stop being melodramatic.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I see your point, however, the op didn't say he couldn't be bothered to raise it properly, atleast I didn't see that.. Some people just aren't as dog savvy as others especially when it comes to reading behavior. Obviously I can't speak for the OP, but what I was getting was he didn't trust her around his grandkids, and now she's gotten into it with his other dog, And as he posted, what if the kid next door jumps the fence? So where does he go from there? 

This dog needs supervision 24/7 and the owner needs to bring in a trainer/behaviorist to evaluate.


----------



## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Hi Mike, I'm sorry that you are in this situation but if you are willing to put in the time I'm sure the members here can suggest a great dog trainer to work with in your area who can help you rebuild trust and bond with your dog again. 
Sometimes we all feel like we are over our heads and lose focus and need outside help to figure out the problem. I hope you will give this dog a chance and best of luck.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Heitzenrotor said:


> Hi All, my name is Mike and I am new this forum. I am having a problem with my 2 yr old female GS, she is fixed, we have another dog a mini Aussie which is about 6 yrs old he is also fixed. Here is the problem they have gotten along pretty good except a few minor mix-ups. However last night I believe that my GS wanted to kill the other dog, she had him by the throat and was shaking her head very hard to the left and right. It took everything me and my wife had to get them apart. Lucky the mini has a very thick coat or I believe he would have been killed.
> 
> Now this GSD since she was a pup has been very shy, at least that's what the dog trainer called it at petsmart puppy school. I don't really trust her around other people or my grand kids. We are leaning toward putting her down. We love this dog, but if you can't trust her what are you to do. My wifes mother went through something like this years ago. She had a very shy GS that attacked my dog, hurt it bad. She did nothing about the problem after this. About a year later they came home to find their Queensland Heeler dead on the front porch with its throat ripped out. Does anyone have any ideas, could this dog just be bad? Don't get me wrong she is fine around me and my wife.


Hey Mike, have you had her checked for anything neurological by a vet? My first Shepherd would fit some of what you're describing as shy when he was a puppy. Long story short, he was having like mini seizures that weren't obvious till he was around 2 and he went from being what you may see as shy to being in a kind of fearful panic after one. I had him pts. That was tough, but I have a wife and kids and it became dangerous.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

finndog said:


> Can you explain this and why it makes a difference regarding temperament?


One thing in general, a backyard breeder would be more inclined to breed two dogs of poor temperament. You breed bad to bad, you get worse.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

finndog said:


> *Please. Reign your apron strings in lady.
> *
> How is a person who raised several good dogs to blame for one dogs random attack?
> 
> He never 'allowed' it to attack another dog. Stop being melodramatic.


Ya know, maybe you should check out the rules here, fellow. I think you are on the hairy edge of between irritating and aggravating. 

As for the rest of your question, well, not all dogs are the same. One can be lucky and have a string of easy dogs, and while they did not do anything special to make them good citizens, they just were, and all is good. Then they get that one. 

It is not the easy dogs that train us how to be good at canine management, leadership, and training. It is the difficult ones that help us to grow. And sometimes, it is the difficult pup that becomes the most awesome companion ever. And yet people put them down or dump them, because they cannot manage them. They've had dogs before, and they were like this so the defect is in the dog. 

It just isn't always the case, even if you have had dogs for 40+ years. even if you haven't managed to have a dog attack another dog before. 

We cannot diagnose THIS dog over the internet. The decision to put an animal down shouldn't really be made by discussing it with strangers on a public forum. Because the dog is an individual, and none of us have met her. All we have heard is an account of her behavior from someone who experienced a dog that he owns fighting with another dog that he owns. 

I think you should trust me, that if you noticed the dogs when it all hits the fan, you might have missed what caused it to. I mean, if it got to the point of a fight, you might have missed some of the preliminaries -- else you would have shut it down before it ever got a head of steam. 

So we are hearing an account from someone who either didn't see preliminary signs, or didn't recognize them, and it is also biased by HUMAN feelings of the-bigger-dog-should-have-acted-like-a-human-and-left-the-small-one-alone-because-it-is-smaller. And also, it is terribly difficult to watch one critter you love tearing into another critter you love. We put human morality onto this, because we are humans, and are fettered into thinking like them.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The OP has two choices. Keep the dog and work with a behaviorist who specializes in aggression or turn the dog into a rescue. A shelter will euthanize a dog with a bite history if the dog acts at all unsocialized. A rescue might not take a dog with a bite history's depending on circumstances. I don't think the OP wants to put in the effort to work with the dog, A feeling I'm getting from the posts which aren't acknowledging the experienced people posting here. I can send the OP the name of a good behaviorist but I don't get the feeling he is going to follow through. A very good one is expensive.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think the dog has a bite history. Getting a bite in the course of breaking up your own dogs I don't think is considered a bite, is it?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The OP has reached out for help so anybody who can suggest the name of some good trainers in the LA around may be welcomed. 

Petsmart Trainers. I saw the sign once which said "dog trainers, no experience necessary" and have found them to be a mixed bag, but a shy fearful puppy is not the norm though it is not uncommon probably most often when people don't properly select their breeding stock. I think there are a lot of good resources in So Cal. 

I am not sure how many posts you need in order to get PMs? Does someone else know?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I will PM a name. He needs to interview to make sure a trainer's style is a match for their needs.


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi Guys Thanks for each and every response, I will not re-home this dog on my own, I am far from comfortable of doing that. For dog as well as anyone else. I would only consider re-homing through a German Shepherd rescue. They all appear to be over full right now according to there websites. My Wife today emailed a German Shepherd expert from a German Shepherd rescue. We will see what he has to say. I'll keep you all posted. I'm thinking she may not be as bad I think she is. (at least I'm hoping) Thanks Mike


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Mike, good for you and good luck. All of our dogs are individuals, they all need different things to become the best dog they can be. 

There are a lot of rescues in the LA area. Contact all of them and look for help and trainer referrals. They would all prefer to keep a dog in its home that have to rehome it. 

I wish you luck.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is a great way to get referrals!


----------



## Heitzenrotor (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi Guys and Gals,

I didn't get to finish my last post, putting this dog down would only be a last resort type situation. But it will be important to get these two dogs back as buddies again. I need them to be able to ride in my truck together like they have many times before. They both loved going to the other house because up there they can run. 

Bauerwhite you are right we don't spend enough time with either of these dogs. They live in my backyard and spend most of there time outside. Not now of course the little guy is inside. Bringing these dogs in is a problem as we have cats as well. But we are have already been working on that.

So tonight I'm a changed man, I'm going to take her for a walk, I get about a block way and run into A large black Lab with two women and no leash. Unfricking believable they didn't say word even as their dog came out on the street toward us, until my Wife showed them her walking stick. Then they started calling the dog. Of course I had already turned around as soon as I saw the dog to avoid a conflict.

Steve taking her to the vet is tricky, she freaks out. The last time was for shots, it was so bad before I got her to the door, they asked me to take her around back. When the guy came out in a green doctor outfit, she became unglued. He was just a kid, not the Dr. he had me straddle her with both hands on her collar, while my wife held her head, she was muzzled. Once done the kid told me that was the scariest shots he had ever given. She wanted to get him. You know come to think of it, she was as bad if not worse when we took her in to get her fixed. They doped her up, before they would even get close to taking her in. I remember the guy saying she had enough of whatever they were giving her to knock out horse. And she was still keyed up and extremely pissed. Hmmm don't seem normal. She attacked Jake twice the next day, we thought it was from the drugs they gave her. Wow I kind of forgot about all that


----------

