# Need help: Looking for GSD Housing



## ekqcorbally (May 30, 2018)

I need some fresh ideas on finding rental housing that allows a GSD. I live in Massachusetts, and I was lucky enough once to find an individual landlord that would allow me to have my GSD, but this house is old and having a lot of problems and we need a new rental. Unfortunately, GSDs are consistently on a breed-restriction list for most apartments, condos, and landlords, and for insurance reasons those properties won't allow GSDs at all, even if they are a property that otherwise allows pets. I've used Craiglist in the past to some success, but lately I'm coming up short on finding landlords that are willing to allow it. We're not in a position to buy a house right now, hence the need for a rental. Any suggestions? Are there any boards/forums/etc. where people have had success in finding GSD friendly-housing? Thanks!


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## Mame (Mar 13, 2018)

It's a non-traditional route, but nearly every town I've ever lived in has someone working at the chamber of commerce who knows everyone and everything about the town. It's usually my first stop. Can't hurt to walk in for a face to face chat to see what/who they might know about.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Is it German Shepherds that are restricted or bully breeds? I don't know why, but a lot of people are under the misconception that our herders are bully breed types.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is it German Shepherds that are restricted or bully breeds? I don't know why, but a lot of people are under the misconception that our herders are bully breed types.


Unfortunately, German shepherds are almost always listed by name on the no breeds list. I have lived in apartments since I was 9 years old, and every single one said no GSDs, even pet friendly apartments. They are commonly known as aggressive problem dogs, right alongside the bully breeds.

The only luck I have had, OP, is finding a private landlord who is animal-friendly and willing to make an exception for the breed if he/she sees how well behaved your dog is and you can provide trainer, vet, and personal references. Maybe you could get a Canine Good Citizen certificate to help you with that? It looks like you have tried this all already though. Good luck!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is it German Shepherds that are restricted or bully breeds? I don't know why, but a lot of people are under the misconception that our herders are bully breed types.


Yes.

German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Akitas, and Chows often find themselves on apartment and condo restriction lists in my area.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes.
> 
> German Shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Akitas, and Chows often find themselves on apartment and condo restriction lists in my area.


Don't forget most of the mastiffs as well! Cane Corsos are one of the most targeted mastiffs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Pytheis said:


> Unfortunately, German shepherds are almost always listed by name on the no breeds list. I have lived in apartments since I was 9 years old, and every single one said no GSDs, even pet friendly apartments. They are commonly known as aggressive problem dogs, right alongside the bully breeds.
> 
> The only luck I have had, OP, is finding a private landlord who is animal-friendly and willing to make an exception for the breed if he/she sees how well behaved your dog is and you can provide trainer, vet, and personal references. Maybe you could get a Canine Good Citizen certificate to help you with that? It looks like you have tried this all already though. Good luck!


Here, I think they tend to get around it with weight limits. A lot of apartment buildings have 35 lb limits. My parents' HOA has a 15 lb limit - no dogs larger than 15 lb are even allowed to visit. (I find this kind of hilarious because they were trying to oust ONE SPECIFIC DOG and they had to set the limit that low in order to get rid of it. They make an exception for my dog, but she's the only one, which I also find hilarious because it's no dogs over 15 lb except for the giant German Shepherd.)

We do have a local business that dedicates itself to maintaining a list of dog-friendly rentals, shops, taprooms, etc. It's the first place I'd send someone looking to rent here. You might see if they have something similar in that city/metro area. Minneapolis-St. Paul has one and they've expanded now to Chicago. The idea may be taking hold in more places - worth checking into.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> Here, I think they tend to get around it with weight limits. A lot of apartment buildings have 35 lb limits. My parents' HOA has a 15 lb limit - no dogs larger than 15 lb are even allowed to visit. (I find this kind of hilarious because they were trying to oust ONE SPECIFIC DOG and they had to set the limit that low in order to get rid of it. They make an exception for my dog, but she's the only one, which I also find hilarious because it's no dogs over 15 lb except for the giant German Shepherd.)


I always joke that a dog under 20 pounds isn't really even a dog. What apartments don't seem to know is that smaller dogs cause more problems IMO. People tend to not bother training their tiny dogs because they are so easy to physically control. There are quite a few very difficult to house train little breeds too. I've only been bit by two dogs in my life, and they were both about 10 pounds. :|


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Pytheis said:


> I always joke that a dog under 20 pounds isn't really even a dog. What apartments don't seem to know is that smaller dogs cause more problems IMO. People tend to not bother training their tiny dogs because they are so easy to physically control. There are quite a few very difficult to house train little breeds too. I've only been bit by two dogs in my life, and they were both about 10 pounds. :|


I am kind of the same. I just don’t say it out loud most of the time.

This particular HOA was mad about one owner not picking up after her dog, so they made a rule that effectively forced her to either get rid of the dog or prohibited her from visiting (I forget which). Like a flat no dogs over 15 lb on the premises, period, full stop...except for Tart’s GSD.  


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

What towns, area are you looking in? Temperament of your dog and age?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I'd go with a realtor. They know the area and might have a listing for a house you could rent. Also there are companies that match clients with apartments. I've had luck with those, although at the time I had a ridgie mix, not a GSD.


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## FenrisWolf (Mar 7, 2018)

Ugh, finding suitable rental housing that allows your dog is such a pain in the butt! Perhaps you could try asking the staff at your local vet clinics? Someone on staff may even be a landlord themselves, or may know of someone who doesn't have reservations about our big, scary, aggressive breed. 
Also, if there are any GSD clubs (IPO, tracking, etc.) in your area perhaps they could offer some insight. Good luck, OP!!


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## unfortunatefoster (Dec 17, 2017)

You can obtain renters insurance, covering your dog as well as your property, from State Farm. They don't ask what breed of dog, so don't tell them  That may be a boost for a hesitant landlord. A reference letter from your old landlord stating what a wonderful and well cared for dog you have will help immensely. I was able to get a 'no pets' apartment with a letter and the meeting of my Chow, no problem.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ekqcorbally said:


> I need some fresh ideas on finding rental housing that allows a GSD. I live in Massachusetts, and I was lucky enough once to find an individual landlord that would allow me to have my GSD, but this house is old and having a lot of problems and we need a new rental. Unfortunately, GSDs are consistently on a breed-restriction list for most apartments, condos, and landlords, and for insurance reasons those properties won't allow GSDs at all, even if they are a property that otherwise allows pets. I've used Craiglist in the past to some success, but lately I'm coming up short on finding landlords that are willing to allow it. We're not in a position to buy a house right now, hence the need for a rental. Any suggestions? Are there any boards/forums/etc. where people have had success in finding GSD friendly-housing? Thanks!


Do you have to move or are you just wanting to? Because one of the things I have resigned myself to is sub standard housing. Pretty much as long as the floors not caving in (yup, that happened) and the place isn't on fire, I have learned to be good with it.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

A work around for the restrictions list is get your doctor to write you a note for a emotional support animal and then they are protected by law 

On another note I'm looking for a place to rent after my divorce and I have a new puppy gsd I am in eastern Massachusetts just north of Boston if anyone knows who I can talk to find a place to live with the dog don't really want to pay more than 1000 to 1500 all in my dog is not registered as an emotional support animal but can at any point from my doctor any help with guidance on a place or person who can help I have not had this problem before because I owned my home but now things have changed please try to help I'm running out of time and options I have had gsd my whole life my last 2 were 14+ years old very experienced with the breed and will never give up my dog to find a place to live not that person there my kids I only will have 1 because my ex wife took my gsd Nate in the divorce as well


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is it German Shepherds that are restricted or bully breeds? I don't know why, but a lot of people are under the misconception that our herders are bully breed types.


I think GSDs are restricted along with the other breeds. Trying to get home owner's insurance to cover a GSD was not easy. Many of the companies I looked into wouldn't do it. In fact, I still don't have him covered. So I have to be really careful outside with him...in case he gets into a scrap with another dog or gets loose.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

having your animal declared an emotional support animal simply to get around rental restrictions is a fraud and in many areas is a criminal offense. It is a huge problem in the community and is part of the reason that so many landlords have anti-pet sentiments. 
Instead, work within the rules.

For the OP, make up a resume for your dog. Include a letter of reference from your current landlord. Copies of training certificates for classes that you have completed as well as letters of recommendations from your vet, groomer, anyone who works closely with your dog. Have proof of current renters insurance covering any incident involving your dog. Contant local realtors as well as property management companies. Look at individually owned homes or small locally owned complexes - they will have a bit more leeway to make exceptions to weight limits and breed restrictions (outside of those mandated by their insurance coverage). If you don't already have one, look into the CGC test at a minimum. It can make a big impression on the landlord.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are many facebook pages that have links to places that rent to dog owners. It is important to find a landlord who has no reservations if a big scary breed- that comment is extremely important. Many many years ago my then boyfriend was told by his landlord who was a long time friend of the family that he was able to get a dog. When it was time and we did find a dog she was not comfortable around him. The dog was not a problem he did not want to play with her lab he did not acknowledged her dog at all nor her. The dog was not shy, cautious, suspicious just extremely aloof. She told him she was not comfortable with the dog because he was not outwardly friendly with her or her dog. He was a above average highly trained dog. Now this was over 20 years ago but the reputation has not changed in the German shepherds breed at all. Just some one who had some real experience with this.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Dainerra said:


> having your animal declared an emotional support animal simply to get around rental restrictions is a fraud and in many areas is a criminal offense. It is a huge problem in the community and is part of the reason that so many landlords have anti-pet sentiments.
> 
> Instead, work within the rules.
> 
> ...


I agree but if you're in a pinch and you're doctor agrees that you actually would benefit from it it is an option although I should have explained it better the first time by no means do I want anyone to lie or possibly commit a crime was just saying that it is an option but only if you're doctor prescribed it 

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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This did prompt him to be eventually a home owner and was lucky enough to be able to bring the dog home with me- karat in the mean time. My mom had three dogs aT the time so it was a full house. 

I this post is a long time ago. I do hope you found something. It is really disheartening to hear people giving up their dog because they could not find a place to live. It is very damaging and sad to witness.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> I see this is a long time ago I do hope you found something. It is really disheartening to hear people giving up their dog because they could not find a place to live. It is very damaging.


I just posted about finding a place I'm in a bind 

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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> I see this is a long time ago I do hope you found something. It is really disheartening to hear people giving up their dog because they could not find a place to live. It is very damaging.


I would never give up my dog for anything 

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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> This did prompt him to be eventually a home owner and was lucky enough to be able to bring the dog home with me- karat in the mean time. My mom had three dogs aT the time so it was a full house.
> 
> I this post is a long time ago. I do hope you found something. It is really disheartening to hear people giving up their dog because they could not find a place to live. It is very damaging and sad to witness.


Unfortunately I just lost my house in the divorce stuff happens not going to let it get me down but I just can't catch a break lately and really need one until then I know a dog friendly hotel not the way I want to do it but it is what it is 

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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

mike98 said:


> Unfortunately I just lost my house in the divorce stuff happens not going to let it get me down but I just can't catch a break lately and really need one until then I know a dog friendly hotel not the way I want to do it but it is what it is
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


Along with my other German shepherd Nate I only wanted him nothing else 

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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’ve managed apartments, private homes, and commercial buildings for a very long time. I’ve done so in 5 different states. The only common thread through all of them is that a GSD is considered a bully breed and is not covered for residential or multi housing insurance policies, so most ban the breed due to insurance limitations, which is perfectly legal.

People are woefully mistaken when it comes to the idea that a therapy dog is a guaranteed in. First, if you are renting from a corporation, like an apt complex, they do have limits on the amount of therapy animals that are on the banned list that they are legally required to allow in. It is perfectly legal, if at capacity, to deny an application. So all the people rushing out to get therapy notes that don’t actually need a therapy animal, congratulations, you are ruining it for those that actually do. Also, you can still be evicted based on your dogs behavior. So if your dog is an ahole, and acts as such, you can easily be looking for a new place in a relatively short amount of time while forfeiting rents and deposits in some cases. Landlords and management companies are cracking down on this big time due to all the fake therapy dogs. In a lot of states, they are also cracking down on doctors and therapists that are writing these letters up for anyone that walks into their office. Some states require a physician and phycologist letter before considering it a legally recognized therapy dog. 

Those with service dogs are more protected, and require much more than a letter from your doctor, thank god. It’s is within everyone’s legal right, whether a personal home owner renting out their house, or a corporation with multiple holdings to have the person with the service dog bring in all required paperwork and have a copy on hand. 

Thanks America, yet another thing ruined because of selfish people trying to skirt the rules by claiming your dog is a therapy animal when it dang well isn’t. It’s shameful. You’re making people that truly do need a therapy animal struggle even harder to find housing that will accept them because they are already at capacity with fake ones. Board your dog, or have a trusted friend/relative hang on to your dog until you can get approved housing without stooping to slimy, lying tactics. And an FYI, everyone is aware you can order vests online now. No one trusts that anymore, and you’re causing real service dogs and owners additional stress by constantly having to prove that it is in fact a service dog before being allowed in. 

The only insurance policy that generally covers bully breeds are for commercial properties, acting as a guard dog. There are legalities behind that as well though. Amount of time spent on the property, proper security for the general public from the guard dog, how many you can have on one property per square inch, and the type of business it is. 

The only truly legal and moral way is to rent from an apt or private residence that covers all breeds. There are some that do, but they are normally full, and the rents are MUCH higher because the property owner has to get an underwriter policy to cover the banned breeds. Our homeowners insurance payment is pretty close to our mortgage amount, because we have 4 that are on the banned list in our state. It’s something everyone should consider when getting any of the banned breeds. Rental housing is going to be a nightmare to find, and homeowners that want to protect their behinds are going to pay triple what a homeowner without a banned breed is going to pay in insurance costs.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

a therapy dog is something entirely different than an Emotional Support Animal. There is zero requirement for a therapy dog owner to be allowed housing with their dog.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> I’ve managed apartments, private homes, and commercial buildings for a very long time. I’ve done so in 5 different states. The only common thread through all of them is that a GSD is considered a bully breed and is not covered for residential or multi housing insurance policies, so most ban the breed due to insurance limitations, which is perfectly legal.
> 
> People are woefully mistaken when it comes to the idea that a therapy dog is a guaranteed in. First, if you are renting from a corporation, like an apt complex, they do have limits on the amount of therapy animals that are on the banned list that they are legally required to allow in. It is perfectly legal, if at capacity, to deny an application. So all the people rushing out to get therapy notes that don’t actually need a therapy animal, congratulations, you are ruining it for those that actually do. Also, you can still be evicted based on your dogs behavior. So if your dog is an ahole, and acts as such, you can easily be looking for a new place in a relatively short amount of time while forfeiting rents and deposits in some cases. Landlords and management companies are cracking down on this big time due to all the fake therapy dogs. In a lot of states, they are also cracking down on doctors and therapists that are writing these letters up for anyone that walks into their office. Some states require a physician and phycologist letter before considering it a legally recognized therapy dog.
> 
> ...


I actually had my last shepherd on my home owners insurance and could probably get it still

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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

You’re correct, emotional support dogs are what the general public uses but term wise, they are often incorrectly called therapy dogs. Emotional support dogs are legally required admittance in housing, and airlines. Therapy dogs are dogs used in hospitals, group homes, and senior housing. Therapy dogs are owned and handled by someone that does not reside in the above settings, but rather they bring the therapy animal to these settings to provide comfort and companionship on a temporary basis. 

I used “therapy dog” in my reply because that is what the general public usually recognizes them by.


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

A few years back I sold my home and needed a rental that would accept my 2 dogs. My 75 lb. female GSD and my 8 lb.

Malti-Poo. I found several homes that would work for us but the owners refused us based on the GSD. No amount of

explaining would change their thinking since the "problem" dog was really the Maltese mix not the big girl. Finally out of

desperation I asked one prospective landlord if I could bring my 2 dogs out for a meet and greet. That worked. They

met my big girl and little munchkin and realized my shepherd was a laid back, mannerly, quiet type. Zero aggression.

Fast forward to meeting my new landlords' dog- a BYB, nervey, out of it's mind aggressive GSD who wanted to eat me

and my dogs for lunch- even with a fence between us. They lived nextdoor to rental home I was now living in. My own gsd learned to ignore the noisy aggressive dog next door.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

mike98 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > This did prompt him to be eventually a home owner and was lucky enough to be able to bring the dog home with me- karat in the mean time. My mom had three dogs aT the time so it was a full house.
> ...


 @mike98 Sorry I have no idea why I thought his was older. Not enough coffeeI would not give up my dogs either where the is a will there is a way. If you have a nice balanced gsd you have more options. Coops and condos i would think would be a big challenge. Depending where you live there are quite a few apartment complexes that allow dogs. So sorry you are in this situation and ones life can always change in a day. Speak to a realtor and if you are on face book join your local community page and post you are looking for a place to rent with your dog. Look for local pages they have them on facebook place that are dog friendly. Reach out to veterinarians, local feed stores anything dog related to see if someone is looking for a tenant with a dog. Getting a cgc would not hurt but may not help that much in the end the landlord would have to meet and feel comfortable with the dog. There is a Fido app that will connect you to dog friendly hotels in the mean time. 

Sadly there is no difference in the real estate world between a emotional support dog and a service dog. Even though the training is substantial for service dogs- I do believe it is because of there is not formal legal certification. They are both considered non pets. Only difference is a letter from a doctor or a therapist is allowed to be requested only from a emotional support dog. Coops also can not deny access to emotional support dogs or service dogs. I really do not know what qualifies for an emotional support dog. A therapy dog is different they are dogs that visit nursing homes and hospitals this dog is still consider a pet.

A link to help you find dog friendly rentals-
https://www.animalhumanesociety.org/search-pet-friendly-housing-and-real-estate


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Actually, there is a difference. Emotional support dogs are only legally recognized by housing and airlines. Any other place that does not allow pets inside (grocery stores, restaurants, etc), are not legally required to allow an emotional support animal in their establishments. What gets tricky is the law behind how they are allowed to ask, and they cannot force proof, or ask what aliment necessitates the need for either a service dog, or an emotional support dog. So if someone tries to take a 5lb whateverpoo into a grocery store, the store is allowed to ask if it is a service dog. If they say yes, even though it’s clearly evident that it is not, they have to allow the dog in. If they say it’s an emotional support animal, they do not legally have to allow that animal inside. Most places just allow all in, because there are steep fees and liability if they refuse entry to a dog and the owner is injured in the store. The laws are not clear enough, or the companies do not want the hassle of training employees as to the difference, so they just allow all in.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes but I was talking in regards to real estate - renting. Neither though are allowed to ask for documentation on a service dog. I do believe because there is not required legal certification the lines do get blurred. I do see some signs in stores that post service dogs allowed only and not esa dogs. At the zoo I saw a dog in a unmarked harness not sure what that was about. O can be pretty sure dogs are not allowed and it did not say service dog in training. So that was interesting.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jenny720 said:


> Yes but I was talking in regards to real estate - renting. Neither though are allowed to ask for documentation on a service dog. I do believe because there is not required legal certification the lines do get blurred. I do see some signs in stores that post service dogs allowed only and not esa dogs. At the zoo I saw a dog in a unmarked harness not sure what that was about. O can be pretty sure dogs are not allowed and it did not say service dog in training. So that was interesting.


There are a few specific things that landlords can ask as far as service dogs. ESAs have no public access rights and aren't allowed anywhere that a regular pet isn't. The only exception is housing and airlines. 

There is no requirement for service dogs to have ID or any kind of identifying equipment.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Dainerra said:


> having your animal declared an emotional support animal simply to get around rental restrictions is a fraud and in many areas is a criminal offense. It is a huge problem in the community and is part of the reason that so many landlords have anti-pet sentiments.
> Instead, work within the rules.
> 
> For the OP, make up a resume for your dog. Include a letter of reference from your current landlord. Copies of training certificates for classes that you have completed as well as letters of recommendations from your vet, groomer, anyone who works closely with your dog. Have proof of current renters insurance covering any incident involving your dog. Contant local realtors as well as property management companies. Look at individually owned homes or small locally owned complexes - they will have a bit more leeway to make exceptions to weight limits and breed restrictions (outside of those mandated by their insurance coverage). If you don't already have one, look into the CGC test at a minimum. It can make a big impression on the landlord.


THIS

People must must must stop using SD and ESA rules for their pets. Disabled people ARE being effected in a big way by this. Those rules exist to protect disabled people NOT your pet


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I used apartments.com and zillow to find my apartment. Every apartment and place I've rented requires you to have your own rental insurance so I don't think that's the reason for most breed ban lists. I've never had issues getting insurance with my dogs, though I have a fantastic insurance company( I did just total a 45 thousand dollar car without my premium going up.) I think they mostly come down to the comfort of the other residents( not being bitten, dog fights, etc.). If you and your doctor determine you need an ESA, then that's between you guys. I don't see the need to be aggressive about it. The thing giving ESA a bad name is poorly trained dogs, poorly socialized dogs, and dogs with bad temperament being taken in plane cabins and apartments. In general, most people flying don't want a dog around, especially a 90lb one. My dog is an ESA and I wouldn't fly with him on the cabin. If i did, I would buy him his own ticket. Generally, as long as you clean up after your dog and it isn't aggressive, loud or pushy, most people don't mind living around it. The issue with ESA is the same as with any pet or animal.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Bearshandler said:


> I used apartments.com and zillow to find my apartment. Every apartment and place I've rented requires you to have your own rental insurance so I don't think that's the reason for most breed ban lists. I've never had issues getting insurance with my dogs, though I have a fantastic insurance company( I did just total a 45 thousand dollar car without my premium going up.) I think they mostly come down to the comfort of the other residents( not being bitten, dog fights, etc.). If you and your doctor determine you need an ESA, then that's between you guys. I don't see the need to be aggressive about it. The thing giving ESA a bad name is poorly trained dogs, poorly socialized dogs, and dogs with bad temperament being taken in plane cabins and apartments. In general, most people flying don't want a dog around, especially a 90lb one. My dog is an ESA and I wouldn't fly with him on the cabin. If i did, I would buy him his own ticket. Generally, as long as you clean up after your dog and it isn't aggressive, loud or pushy, most people don't mind living around it. The issue with ESA is the same as with any pet or animal.


Nicely said I am actually someone who needs it to just bothers me that a few bad owners gave the whole breed a bad name 

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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

It really has more to do with amount of physical damage a dog can do if it does bite, than bite statistics themselves. If anyone has looked into breed bans, you’ll find some very unlikely animals on the list. Never had aggression problems or high bite statistics, but the damage it MAY inflict makes liability a concern. 

You’re rental policies only cover your property inside your apt. If you have your dog outside in a common area, it become the property owners liability if the animal bit a person or another animal. Unless, of course, you had a policy specifically for your dog, but even that won’t be a pass for allowing a banned dog onto the property. 

My homeowners only covers us in the event that the accident or bite occurs on our property. It will not cover any bites or accidents off property. So if my dogs get loose, and attack someone/something a couple blocks down, that’s all on me personally, my homeowners policy would immediately reject a claim in this case.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Bearshandler said:


> I used apartments.com and zillow to find my apartment. Every apartment and place I've rented requires you to have your own rental insurance so I don't think that's the reason for most breed ban lists. I've never had issues getting insurance with my dogs.


The renter's policy that they want you to have is to cover your personal belongings and has no impact on the insurance coverage that the landlord has to carry on the property. It is an added protection for you in case something were to happen such as a fire or robbery. Such things aren't going to be covered by the landlord's insurance policy.
Homeowners insurance is very different standards than a rental policy. And a policy for the owner of a rental property or apartment complex is even more complicated than a typical homeowner policy. There are a lot of homeowner's policies that have breed ban lists. And commercial policies have even stricter rules.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Dainerra said:


> The renter's policy that they want you to have is to cover your personal belongings and has no impact on the insurance coverage that the landlord has to carry on the property. It is an added protection for you in case something were to happen such as a fire or robbery. Such things aren't going to be covered by the landlord's insurance policy.
> Homeowners insurance is very different standards than a rental policy. And a policy for the owner of a rental property or apartment complex is even more complicated than a typical homeowner policy. There are a lot of homeowner's policies that have breed ban lists. And commercial policies have even stricter rules.


I can't speak for the complexities of commercial insurance, I have a manager to take care of that. My homeowners insurance only needs you to have certain breeds fixed. As for my rental insurance, you may be right. The only time I've used it is for fire and a broken computer.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but I was talking in regards to real estate - renting. Neither though are allowed to ask for documentation on a service dog. I do believe because there is not required legal certification the lines do get blurred. I do see some signs in stores that post service dogs allowed only and not esa dogs. At the zoo I saw a dog in a unmarked harness not sure what that was about. O can be pretty sure dogs are not allowed and it did not say service dog in training. So that was interesting.
> ...


It is a bit confusing with the fair housing and the ada they seem to overlap in regards to service dogs - I know landlords can not ask for certification and with the ada you can not ask for proof of any disability but I do believe with federal housing if it is not clear their is a disability a land lord can ask why the dog is used. This would not allowed in public with the ada as I understand it. Now I would still advise a landlord go over this with their lawyer. This is different with an esa dog. I do know that esa are not allowed in stores they only seem to get special treatment in housing. I see quite a few signs in the store service dogs only no esa dogs. 
What I was never sure though if they were allowed in school or work so I assume not allowed that would make sense. 

I did not know though that dogs did not have to have special harness they are pretty cool harnesses. I would think they would want to use those harnesses. He was a doodle I saw him quick with his owners though and would of guessed myself he was a behaved pet but he had to be a service dog but again who really knows.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

You absolutely can ask for proof that the animal is a certified service animal or certified ESD with housing. You cannot ask why the service or ESD is needed with housing. I’ve always had copies of certs in the residents file as proof. Both before and after the properties fell under my portfolio. It is also used to track the number of banned breeds falling under the ESD category, so we would start turning away anyone with that breed. It does not violate fair housing rules if you turn every prospective resident away with a banned breed under the ESD category. SD’s are a different story all together, you cannot turn away anyone with a SD, breed ban or no breed ban, unless all the ADA units were full, and an ADA unit was needed. They would be placed on a waiting list or offered a non ADA unit, but by the time an ADA unit became available, they usually had found other housing.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > You absolutely can ask for proof that the animal is a certified service animal or certified ESD with housing. You cannot ask why the service or ESD is needed with housing. I’ve always had copies of certs in the residents file as proof. Both before and after the properties fell under my portfolio. It is also used to track the number of banned breeds falling under the ESD category, so we would start turning away anyone with that breed. It does not
> ...


That’s odd, I get my fair housing cert every year, and SD and disabled prospects are always top priority in these trainings, as it’s the easiest to prove they are being culled due to the dog or the disability. It’s a law suit no company wants on their records, whether it’s a viable suit or not.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

https://usaservicedogregistration.com/housing-laws-service-emotional-support-animals/


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I’m glad you quoted my response because I deleted my answer as I saw that you have misread what I wrote In all my post. As you ha e repeated exactly what I have been saying multiple times on this thread. I have said from the very beginning and quite a few times - You can ask for certification of a emotional support dog in a form a doctor or a therapist letter but you can not ask for a certification for a service dog. Fair house law a federal law i was at a meeting a few months ago and this is what we were all told repeatedly. It also varies by State so again I am repeating this again it is what only makes sense to me


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> I’m glad you quoted my response because I deleted my answer as I saw that you have misread what I wrote In all my post. As you ha e repeated exactly what I have been saying multiple times on this thread. I have said from the very beginning and quite a few times - You can ask for certification of a emotional support dog in a form a doctor or a therapist letter but you can ask for a certification for a service dog.


Yeah, the wording in the comment I quoted sounded like you were saying landlords cannot ask for proof of training as a service dog, but could ask for proof for ESD. If you were saying a landlord could ask for proof for both SD and ESD, I misread. My apologies.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Ah okay yes I was told landlords can not ask for proof of certification of service dogs.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> Ah okay yes I was told landlords can not ask for proof of certification of service dogs.


That is true to an extent. They cannot ask for a specific certification, but have every right to ask for documents showing SD training, and a pass by a certified trainer. If someone voluntarily provides certification, landlords are allowed to make copies for their files. But someone can’t walk in, point to their wreck of a ill behaved dog, say “oh, that’s my service dog,” without having to show some form of proof that their dog was trained for SD work, and passed that training.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

It does get confusing. Housing and airlines can ask for proof, but places like grocery stores, coffee shops, hotels, can ask if it is a SD, but cannot ask for proof. Thankfully, with how much of an impact ESD fakers have made, there are new laws being pushed through legislation that will have steeper penalties, sites that offer a letter at a low cost, where you just fill in your info and your dogs info are beginning to be fined, and laws past to make this sort of thing illegal. There are absolutely people that need ESD, but they don’t even make up a third of the group of ESD owners. I’m really hoping to see new laws being in effect to protect those that truly need this type of service, whether SD or ESD, and the people faking it it get a banned breed or any breed into housing that just don’t want to pay the pet deposit and work around the legalities of banned breeds.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It does get very confusing. I did not think airlines asked for certification either. I remember a airline getting in trouble for that a few years back it’s why I think they choose just not to ask for certification. You can see how this gets taken advantage of and cause a lot of issues. 



https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have seen nice trained esd to and they often get a bad rap. I hope they do figure things out because lines get murky way to fast. My brother works with teacher that has a service dog - the dog actually alerted to something on my brother who is have kidney issues and was being treated at the time. The owner of the dog could not believe this and with kept urging my brother to get checked out with great concern without knowing his health issues.
They are quite amazing dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> That is true to an extent. They cannot ask for a specific certification, but have every right to ask for documents showing SD training, and a pass by a certified trainer. If someone voluntarily provides certification, landlords are allowed to make copies for their files. But someone can’t walk in, point to their wreck of a ill behaved dog, say “oh, that’s my service dog,” without having to show some form of proof that their dog was trained for SD work, and passed that training.


No, nobody has the "right" to ask for documents showing SD training and a pass by a certified trainer. And NO service dog handler has an obligation to provide proof of anything at all. That is what the law says

First of all- a trainer certified by which organization? Because dog training is unregulated. There are CPDTs, CDTs thru IACP, probably a half dozen others and then thousands of trainers certified through no one who may be more competent than those organizations above.

It is perfectly legal to train your own service dog from the ground up with zero input from anyone else and that meets the requirement. My current dog is 18 months I think. He's got probably 5 tasks. He was out with me half the day today. He is not certified through anything anywhere. He has a CGC, and I'm putting some obedience titles on him for my own entertainment because if push comes to shove it is SOMETHING I can show and say, see my dog can perform these trained behaviors and 3 different judges signed off on it as passing. It's just something I thought of as a way to prove I put some work into him but the best proof is his behavior while working.

IAADP does have a format for a Public Access Test but not just anyone can take it--- and that itself only shows public manners, not individuallly trained tasks, which are required by law. "Comfort" is not a task.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> It does get very confusing. I did not think airlines asked for certification either. I remember a airline getting in trouble for that a few years back it’s why I think they choose just not to ask for certification. You can see how this gets taken advantage of and cause a lot of issues.
> 
> 
> 
> https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet


Nobody anywhere can ask for a "certification letter" for an ESA or a SD. Airlines do ask for a note from a mental health professional stating that a person has a disabling mental health condition and benefits from the use of a service dog. That is a statement about the person's disability only and 99% of the time doctors or therapists writing those letters have never laid eyes upon the dog so it is no certification of anything specific to that particular dog.

Airlines are changing constantly right now, attempting to respond to the faker crisis. There were all sorts of new things this year such as a vet signing off on the animal's health and behavior, and at least talk of requiring some proof of training but I'm not sure that really got a ton of traction because it's too murky.

And we all know vets don't always have a clue about dog behavior.

And I can speak from personal experience here knowing several people who work as mental health professionals and medical professionals. They have NO clue what is even the legal need for the animal. You ha/ve to be disabled, if you are not disabled then you don't qualify for an ESA or a SD. They have less of a clue o f what goes into training a SD or how to tell what's a real one or not, and yet those letters sometimes hold weight. See the problem?

As far as i know Delta is still enforcing its ban on bully looking ESAs, which was shot down by somebody federal and Delta is sticking to its guns. So it's ping ponging back and forth and things are changing constantly. This is one of the reasons why I chose a labrador from a good breeder....if the you know what hits the fan I can produce his AKC papers proving he is a safe and well respected breed for this job. I'm not making any statement against anybody using any off breed as a SD but I can't have the hassle in my life right now. He didn't come from an animal shelter, I can prove what he is, and a labrador as a SD is not the least bit controversial. Because if Delta is going to succeed in upholding that breed ban, what other breed bans might go on the list?

ADA says that SDs are not subject to breed bans but ADA does not apply to airplanes and so far at least it seems Delta is getting away with it. 
t


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> https://usaservicedogregistration.com/housing-laws-service-emotional-support-animals/


From this very same website I got this quote:

"If your dog is not fully trained to help with a certain condition we recommend buying the service dog gear. "

Take a minute and really read that.

This is one of those predatory sites that sells ID cards and all sorts of nonsense. I wish this link weren't even in this thread. This stuff drives me bonkers. 

There is NO legitimate organization that sends ID cards through the mail for SDs and ESAs. None!!

"Your Emotional Support Animal (ESA) ID card will include our convenient QR Code for a quick scan link to our registry lookup. By simply entering your dog's registration number your official registered profile will be accessible for quick verification in the event the validity of your service dog is ever questioned. 



*Please register your dog on our FREE registration form as an EMOTIONAL SUPPORT ANIMAL...it's quick and easy. The information you provide is the information we will use to create your personal ID card. Be certain to verify the accuracy of the information you provide, as there will be no refunds for inaccurate spellings or information. Thank you for your attention to detail. It is appreciated by your USA Service Dog Registration team."


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@thecowboygirls I do understand that you can not ask for certification for a service dog - it what I was told by fair housing for housing and stores I knew about. The airlines though I was unsure. I still not sure if that was a real service dog at the zoo. Thanks for clearing up the airlines though that was a bit confusing in what I read in the link I posted. I do remember about the airline getting in trouble for asking for certification of a service dog. 
In regards to emotional support dogs and housing - according to fair housing in my state it is known as being legal for landlords to ask for a letter from a therapist or a doctor stating their need for a emotional support dogs. (I must sound like a broken record) Whether this letter holds any water or not I understand that this is a request is legal and practiced daily in regards to emotional support dogs. It would make sense that a landlord wants some kind of documentation of a dog who is not trained in some kind service work they want some documentation as the trade off I would assume for some kind of legal protection. Do you have a link that you suggest.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'd just google and go read the actual laws directly.

Fair Housing Act applies to housing only

ADA applies to all public areas

and Air Carrier Access Act applies to airplanes. I'm not honestly sure if the airport itself falls under ADA or ACAA

To complicate matters further, these three different laws have different definitions of service dogs, assistance dogs, and emotional support dogs. For instance ADA considers a psychiatric service dog that is task trained to be legally the same thing as a guide dog or any other trained service dog. ACAA lumps psychiatric service dogs in with ESAs, which I think is a huge mistake. Fair Housing I believe has yet another category of "assistance dog" which is somewhat blurry between ESA and SD........


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I know fair housing regards to housing only I was at a fair housing conference for real estate agents. So I am only going by what I was told and nothing else and this though again is in my state. I was trying to find where you got you for information as different states seem to vary on the laws.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Fair Housing Act protects people against discrimination for all sorts of thins including disability which is where service dogs and ESAs come into it

https://www.hud.gov/program_offices...p/fair_housing_act_overview#_The_Fair_Housing

https://www.ada.gov/

https://www.transportation.gov/tags/air-carrier-access-act

"Under the Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) a service animal is any animal that is individually trained or able to provide assistance to a person with a disability; or any animal that assists persons with disabilities by providing emotional support. Documentation may be required of passengers needing to travel with an emotional support or psychiatric service animal."


*I* think this is highly discriminatory, because they do not demand documentation of your disability for any medical disability (blindness for instance) in order to use any other type of a service dog. Just psychiatric. ESAs I really don't care. But a psych SD is not an ESA. But you can see how everything gets muddied in ACAA

And furthermore, what documentation is required varies by airline.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> I know fair housing regards to housing only I was at a fair housing conference for real estate agents. So I am only going by what I was told and nothing else and this though again is in my state. I was trying to find where you got you for information as different states seem to vary on the laws.


As far as I know, Fair Housing is federal and so it should not vary state to state. The only thing I am aware of that varies state to state is some service dog in training laws.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Fair Housing Act protects people against discrimination for all sorts of thins including disability which is where service dogs and ESAs come into it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have all of this information and wasn't going to go there but you are absolutely correct I I just shouldn't have made the initial post about this my friend got sued over this and lost horribly in court taught all of us about this 

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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I know fair housing regards to housing only I was at a fair housing conference for real estate agents. So I am only going by what I was told and nothing else and this though again is in my state. I was trying to find where you got you for information as different states seem to vary on the laws.
> ...


 it is federal but it does vary by State. I know Florida was trying to get the request letters for emotional support dogs and backed out or did not pass I can’t rmeenr


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I am surprised they consider emotional support dogs the same as guide dogs and service dogs. Especially with all the issues they are having. I trying to learn more about this all I know your are very informative.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As for finding housing with a dog--- I have stayed at an AirBnB with 2 shepherds and a third non shepherd before.

And when we were in the process of moving it looked like there might be a lag time between closing on our one house and moving into the 2nd. At the time I had 2 shepherds, a lab mix and a pomeranian so 4 dogs total. I did find and secure an Air Bnb in both states that would let us rent. We wound up pulling it off and not having to use Air Bnb. Closed on one and drove 3 days staying in hotels (with all the dogs) and were able to move right into the second house.

So if nothing else, you should be able to buy yourself some time on AirbnB and some of them may even be long term rentals.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> As for finding housing with a dog--- I have stayed at an AirBnB with 2 shepherds and a third non shepherd before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you didn't think that was an option with them 

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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jchrest said:


> You absolutely can ask for proof that the animal is a certified service animal or certified ESD with housing. .


You can't ask if a dog is a certified service animal because under the ADA there is no certification. How can you ask for something that doesn't exist?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/service_animals_brochure.pdf. In regards to emotional support dogs.
@Cowboysgirl thanks for the links


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Dainerra said:


> You can't ask if a dog is a certified service animal because under the ADA there is no certification. How can you ask for something that doesn't exist?


All correct it is illegal to go down that road 

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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

You have to have proof that a service animal is needed, and that you are disabled. You can do that with a letter from your physician. Being disabled does not give you a free pass, housing and airlines CAN ask for proof of disability (though not what the disability is), and that can be done through certification of the SD, and/or proof via letter from your doctor that a person is disabled and requires the use of a SD. 

I didn’t realize the link I posted was for one of those sites, I didn’t scroll all the way down. I agree, I wish I hadn’t posted that link, feel free to report it to have it removed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> You have to have proof that a service animal is needed, and that you are disabled. You can do that with a letter from your physician. Being disabled does not give you a free pass, housing and airlines CAN ask for proof of disability (though not what the disability is), and that can be done through certification of the SD, and/or proof via letter from your doctor that a person is disabled and requires the use of a SD.
> 
> I didn’t realize the link I posted was for one of those sites, I didn’t scroll all the way down. I agree, I wish I hadn’t posted that link, feel free to report it to have it removed.


That's kind of a blanket statement that is a little unclear. If I go to the grocery store with my service dog nobody can legally ask me for proof that my SD is needed. I have seen nothing that says airlines have the right to ask for proof of disability or documentation from a physician for service dogs working for anything other than psychiatric only. That one like I said is ever changing right now and I might find something new but last I read it all that was the case.

I'm not sure what housing can demand in the case of service dogs vs ESAs. I'll have to re check. 

But as a general statement I don't think this is correct...particularly the part about certification of the service dog. Airlines can ask for letters for psychiatric service dogs only


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

mike98 said:


> I actually had my last shepherd on my home owners insurance and could probably get it still
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


Same here Mike. I was surprised how easy it was to find a home owners insurance policy where GSD's weren't on the banned list. For my first GSD 10 years ago, I had to get a waiver on my homeowners by proving I had a fence. The e-fence qualified and I got the waiver. This time around, no questions asked.

I've thought a lot about the "why's?" that a GSD or any other banned breed is an insurance risk. I guess the risk or monetary settlement of a bite claim is outweighs the determent and cash outlay of a robbery claim. Implying a GSD on the property discourages burglars. Too many people looking to sue. I have a quick story - traveling salesman comes to my door on a Saturday, walks right up the middle of my lawn, wants my dry cleaning business. Duke does not like him. I told him thanks, but no thanks, he was persistent but I asked him strongly to leave. Comes back on Tuesday and rings the doorbell with wife home and me at work. Dog bites. Dog ordered to stay in home for a while. This was my fault somehow?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That's kind of a blanket statement that is a little unclear. If I go to the grocery store with my service dog nobody can legally ask me for proof that my SD is needed. I have seen nothing that says airlines have the right to ask for proof of disability or documentation from a physician for service dogs working for anything other than psychiatric only. That one like I said is ever changing right now and I might find something new but last I read it all that was the case.
> 
> I'm not sure what housing can demand in the case of service dogs vs ESAs. I'll have to re check.
> 
> But as a general statement I don't think this is correct...particularly the part about certification of the service dog. Airlines can ask for letters for psychiatric service dogs only


Agreed, they can't ask for proof in my parts either for retail establishments. Kind of like a HIPA law.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Same here Mike. I was surprised how easy it was to find a home owners insurance policy where GSD's weren't on the banned list. For my first GSD 10 years ago, I had to get a waiver on my homeowners by proving I had a fence. The e-fence qualified and I got the waiver. This time around, no questions asked.
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought a lot about the "why's?" that a GSD or any other banned breed is an insurance risk. I guess the risk or monetary settlement of a bite claim is outweighs the determent and cash outlay of a robbery claim. Implying a GSD on the property discourages burglars. Too many people looking to sue. I have a quick story - traveling salesman comes to my door on a Saturday, walks right up the middle of my lawn, wants my dry cleaning business. Duke does not like him. I told him thanks, but no thanks, he was persistent but I asked him strongly to leave. Comes back on Tuesday and rings the doorbell with wife home and me at work. Dog bites. Dog ordered to stay in home for a while. This was my fault somehow?


They only gave it to me initially 14 years ago was because my gsd was over 10 then we said nothing about it until we bought our house 6 years ago he had been gone 4 5 years at that point and our other gsd was 7

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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

mike98 said:


> They only gave it to me initially 14 years ago was because my gsd was over 10 then we said nothing about it until we bought our house 6 years ago he had been gone 4 5 years at that point and our other gsd was 7
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


Maybe insurance companies outlook on GSD's has changed in the last 10 years.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This is for the city and state of New York regarding housing. https://www.nycbar.org/pdf/report/u...ityHousingRightsandBuildingCodesofNewYork.pdf


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Same here Mike. I was surprised how easy it was to find a home owners insurance policy where GSD's weren't on the banned list. For my first GSD 10 years ago, I had to get a waiver on my homeowners by proving I had a fence. The e-fence qualified and I got the waiver. This time around, no questions asked.
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought a lot about the "why's?" that a GSD or any other banned breed is an insurance risk. I guess the risk or monetary settlement of a bite claim is outweighs the determent and cash outlay of a robbery claim. Implying a GSD on the property discourages burglars. Too many people looking to sue. I have a quick story - traveling salesman comes to my door on a Saturday, walks right up the middle of my lawn, wants my dry cleaning business. Duke does not like him. I told him thanks, but no thanks, he was persistent but I asked him strongly to leave. Comes back on Tuesday and rings the doorbell with wife home and me at work. Dog bites. Dog ordered to stay in home for a while. This was my fault somehow?


Duke was doing his job your really lucky the city or state didnt put him down every time I leave the house weather hes with me or not I treat it like a loaded gun and quick story a friend and 3 year old are hanging out with me and the ex and bruno well his tail was a weapon to like a 3 year old kept knocking him over with it not on purpose kid gets up winds up with a kick that you would smash a kick ball with to my dogs fupa below ribs in front of the other stuff didn't catch his son fast enough got bruno in time the father no bull **** says let what ever he is going to do happen I lost my **** when he said that first of all I don't want my dog possibly biting your 3 year old at this point not because of the little **** more because I don't want my dog to think that it is ok to bite someone needless to say that was the last time he was over with his son my ex bit her tougne while they were there I wasn't so reserved but kinda caught myself and stopped me and bruno went to a different room till they left after me and her a a discussion about what had just happened we weren't mad each other we wanted to kill them little **** kicking my dog I can't let my dog near your kid again because he is not going to forget that he kicked him good we were dumbfounded and quickly learned a valuable lesson I trust no one with my dogs if I have to choose I'm picking my dog every time 

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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

mike98 said:


> Duke was doing his job your really lucky the city or state didnt put him down every time I leave the house weather hes with me or not I treat it like a loaded gun and quick story a friend and 3 year old are hanging out with me and the ex and bruno well his tail was a weapon to like a 3 year old kept knocking him over with it not on purpose kid gets up winds up with a kick that you would smash a kick ball with to my dogs fupa below ribs in front of the other stuff didn't catch his son fast enough got bruno in time the father no bull **** says let what ever he is going to do happen I lost my **** when he said that first of all I don't want my dog possibly biting your 3 year old at this point not because of the little **** more because I don't want my dog to think that it is ok to bite someone needless to say that was the last time he was over with his son my ex bit her tougne while they were there I wasn't so reserved but kinda caught myself and stopped me and bruno went to a different room till they left after me and her a a discussion about what had just happened we weren't mad each other we wanted to kill them little **** kicking my dog I can't let my dog near your kid again because he is not going to forget that he kicked him good we were dumbfounded and quickly learned a valuable lesson I trust no one with my dogs if I have to choose I'm picking my dog every time
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


That is a crazy story. I'd be pissed if that kid kicked my dog. I'd lose my sh!t on the kid and father. Just noticed I am right down the street from you Mike.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Okay, I’ll reply one more time, then leave you all to your research. Retail establishments can ask two questions: is the service dog needed for a disability, and what services he/she performs for you. They (and anyone else, including airlines and housing) cannot ask about the nature of YOUR disability. Most retail establishments don’t bother, because if you answer the two questions above, you still cannot demand proof that the dog is a service dog, nor can they ask for proof of your disability. And that’s how we wind up with dogs peeing and pooping in the aisles and generally being a nuisance to people and other animals. Because the owners would rather not ask at all in fear of a lawsuit. Just because you don’t see it being applied, it’s still a law. 

I obviously have more experience on the housing vs airline rules, but everything I’ve read online shows airlines have the right to proof, same as housing. That may or may not have changed, but I can’t find anything to contradict that. They can ask for proof of disability and what the service dog performs as a service to you, but these two CAN require proof of disability in the form of a letter provided by your doctor, and will also take certification if the animal was professionally trained and certified. 

There is a ton of research available online as to what rights disabled people and their SD have vs ESD. Research it.


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## mike98 (Oct 6, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> That is a crazy story. I'd be pissed if that kid kicked my dog. I'd lose my sh!t on the kid and father. Just noticed I am right down the street from you Mike.


Used to be probably if you are talking billerica 

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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jchrest said:


> Okay, I’ll reply one more time, then leave you all to your research. Retail establishments can ask two questions: is the service dog needed for a disability, and what services he/she performs for you. They (and anyone else, including airlines and housing) cannot ask about the nature of YOUR disability. Most retail establishments don’t bother, because if you answer the two questions above, you still cannot demand proof that the dog is a service dog, nor can they ask for proof of your disability. And that’s how we wind up with dogs peeing and pooping in the aisles and generally being a nuisance to people and other animals. Because the owners would rather not ask at all in fear of a lawsuit. Just because you don’t see it being applied, it’s still a law.
> 
> I obviously have more experience on the housing vs airline rules, but everything I’ve read online shows airlines have the right to proof, same as housing. That may or may not have changed, but I can’t find anything to contradict that. They can ask for proof of disability and what the service dog performs as a service to you, but these two CAN require proof of disability in the form of a letter provided by your doctor, and will also take certification if the animal was professionally trained and certified.
> 
> There is a ton of research available online as to what rights disabled people and their SD have vs ESD. Research it.


In regards to housing only - 
There is no official legal certification of service dogs as mentioned already by others in this thread. So therefore any documentation given or asked is not allowed or accepted. My only advise is to check directly with an attorney in state your own regards to this subject. Lawsuits are a plenty. I would not get my information from the internet only from an attorney in your state. Again there is not an official certification of service dogs. You can not ask if a service dog is certified or accept a certification because there is no legal official certification. A landlord cannot not ask about a person being considered for housing details about there disability what so ever. Only if a disability is not apparent and I emphasize only, the only documentation that can be requested is a letter from a medical doctor or a therapist and the letter does not state specifics only that they are disabled and need a service dog or emotional support dog. (people who have no physical disability that a request can be legally made for documents in the form of a letter from a doctor or a therapist and this is often but not always with regards to emotional support dogs)This is coming from a lawyer in regards to fair housing in the state of NY not the city of New York which I believe the city has some additional laws but the State of New York.

I will comment no further. In regards to airlines I do not know nothing about but are reading the links that were posted.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> Okay, I’ll reply one more time, then leave you all to your research. Retail establishments can ask two questions: is the service dog needed for a disability, and what services he/she performs for you. They (and anyone else, including airlines and housing) cannot ask about the nature of YOUR disability. Most retail establishments don’t bother, because if you answer the two questions above, you still cannot demand proof that the dog is a service dog, nor can they ask for proof of your disability. And that’s how we wind up with dogs peeing and pooping in the aisles and generally being a nuisance to people and other animals. Because the owners would rather not ask at all in fear of a lawsuit. Just because you don’t see it being applied, it’s still a law.
> 
> I obviously have more experience on the housing vs airline rules, but everything I’ve read online shows airlines have the right to proof, same as housing. That may or may not have changed, but I can’t find anything to contradict that. They can ask for proof of disability and what the service dog performs as a service to you, but these two CAN require proof of disability in the form of a letter provided by your doctor, and will also take certification if the animal was professionally trained and certified.
> 
> There is a ton of research available online as to what rights disabled people and their SD have vs ESD. Research it.


https://www.transportation.gov/indi...e-animals-including-emotional-support-animals

I have seen nothing anywhere on ACAA about certification. Airlines must accept "credible verbal assurance" or professional working gear for example for non psychiatric service dogs. 

They can ask for a letter from a mental health professional for an ESA or a psych service dog.

Also, NO dog is permitted in places of public access if it is not housebroken. Any business may kick any dog out, service dog or otherwise, if it acts threatening, is not under owner control, or toilets indoors

I was researching what FHA says about letters and certification but had to take my dog to the vet. But if the housing person can not see that the person is disabled they may ask for proof of a disability and proof of medical need of the dog. Still did not see anything anywhere about any type of "certification"


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I didn’t read the entire housing law you posted, it’s 30 pages long. However, I am not disagreeing that people with disabilities DO NOT have to state the reason/cause/or type of disability, nor can ANYONE ask for details regarding the disability. I’m talking about what a landlord CAN ask for, which is proof of a disability, via doctors note or certification. I agree, leave your personal case to an attorney if you feel like there may be shaky ground. That is where all properties I’ve managed get their information from in regards to SD and ESD, what is legal, what is not. Across all boards, it is legal to ask for proof of disability, just not what the disability is. Unless you start getting into reasonable accommodations, and they are requesting modifications to an existing structure, all those requests go directly to legal for response, and legal will advise if it is in fact reasonable and who will be responsible for costs.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.html


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is long and it is regards to NYS, NYC and FHA laws. I do have access to lawyer advise through the ny association regards to housing so today I made a call that is where I posted the information on my most recent post as I wanted to check things for myself as to clear up a lot of verbage and hearing so many different things. I also wanted to share this information. Again though states can vary and lawsuits are plenty so I would always check with your own state.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> It is long and it is regards to NYS, NYC and FHA laws. I do have access to lawyer advise through the ny association regards to housing so today I made a call that is where I posted the information on my most recent post as I wanted to check things for myself as to clear up a lot of verbage and hearing so many different things. I also wanted to share this information. Again though states can vary and lawsuits are plenty so I would always check with your own state.


That’s awesome, can you share when you get an answer? I’ve been out of the industry since my accident, so 2 1/2 years, so if things have changed since, I would love to know. Also, I’m not trying to say “I’m right and everyone else is wrong,” I’m just relaying information that I have always received in training, certifications, and in daily management. Even though I will no longer work in the field, I still like to learn new things. Especially when dogs are concerned.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Jchrest I am in the learning process and had to figure this out. Certainly not about who is right or wrong. I posted the information I did get from the phone call to the lawyer it was post #77 and this is regards to FHA laws and in the state of New York. Laws do vary within the state and even cities have their varying laws.

I do hope you are feeling better! I’m sure all the dog are keeping you busy!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> @Jchrest I am in the learning process and had to figure this out. Certainly not about who is right or wrong. I posted the information I did get from the phone call to the lawyer it was post #77 and this is regards to FHA laws and in the state of New York. Laws do vary within the state and even cities have their varying laws.
> 
> I do hope you are feeling better! I’m sure all the dog are keeping you busy!


Missed the lawyer part on that one, sorry! I’ve only dealt with CA, AZ, FL, GA, and NC. CA has been the most strict housing wise and what they require (within legal guidelines) to allow a SD in when they are a banned breed, and a letter from doctor stating the person is disabled and requires the use of a SD. I’m starting to think the “certificates” legal was allowing were probably those from the websites you can purchase one from. I’m sure they’ve wisened up about those fake certs by now. We were able to take them as proof that they were SD or ESD. Probably what’s causing all the confusion with my comments, I was listening to legal, and they, at the time, probably thought those certs were valid as well. 

So my bad, I was totally wrong about legal certifications for service dogs. I’ll eat my slice of crow pie on that one! Lol


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Jchrest Cowboygirls mentioned the airlines are changing constantly and with those breed bands it is interesting delta is banning emotional support dogs on the breed banned list regardless of another federal law so interesting. It’s hard to keep up. service dogs allowed like you said from the banned breed list - as they are covered under the ada and fair housing laws but emotional support dogs only the fair housing laws so I assume they are allowed from the breed banned list. I wonder if this will be changing.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> This is for the city and state of New York regarding housing. https://www.nycbar.org/pdf/report/u...ityHousingRightsandBuildingCodesofNewYork.pdf


Interesting...A service dog means any dog that is trained to work or perform specific tasks for
the benefit of a person with a disability by a recognized service dog training center or
professional service dog trainer, and is actually used for such purpose.

54
The requirement to reasonably accommodate a person with a disability by
permitting use of an emotional support animal is subject to a showing that the
harboring of the animal meets the reasonable accommodation standard — that it is a
reasonable accommodation to the rules, policies, practices, or services, which is
“necessary to afford a person with a disability equal opportunity to use and enjoy a
17
dwelling”.55
In emotional support animal cases, the complainant must be able to show that he
or she has a disability, that he or she was otherwise qualified for the tenancy, that
because of the disability it was necessary to keep the animal in order to use and enjoy
the apartment, and that reasonable accommodations can be made to allow the animal.
Medical or psychological expert testimony or evidence must be provided to show that
the animal is required in order to use and enjoy the apartment"

This reads like an owner trained service dog would not be permitted....which is not a specification made by any other laws I've ever read. Unless it was an owner trained psych dog in which case it could fall under the emotional support animal part. 

It also begs the question, what is a "professional service dog trainer" obviously, someone who works for Guiding Eyes for the Blind and has a title of "trainer" would qualify. What about a dog trainer who also trains service dogs but is not affiliated with a service dog organization?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> @Jchrest Cowboygirls mentioned the airlines are changing constantly and with those breed bands it is interesting delta is banning emotional support dogs on the breed banned list regardless of another federal law so interesting. It’s hard to keep up. service dogs allowed like you said from the banned breed list - as they are covered under the ada and fair housing laws but emotional support dogs only the fair housing laws so I assume they are allowed from the breed banned list. I wonder if this will be changing.


I wish I had a link to the recent DOT review and position statement, because I am pretty sure they disagreed with Delta's breed ban and Delta doubled down on it anyway. I don't know how all that will play out. Delta's position is still very clear

https://www.delta.com/us/en/accessible-travel-services/service-animals

This type of clarification was long overdue:

"We know that service and support animals are highly-trained working animals. We will only refuse transportation of the animal if it engages in disruptive or aggressive behavior such as:

Growling
Biting
Jumping on passengers, flight attendants or staff
Relieving themselves in the gate area or cabin
Barking excessively, not in response to a handler’s need or distress
Eating off seatback tray tables"

I've had to share airplanes with fake service dogs acting out in some of the above ways and when I asked the airline to kick them off they refused. I'm glad they finally understand that they can and should remove a dog who is acting a fool.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> Missed the lawyer part on that one, sorry! I’ve only dealt with CA, AZ, FL, GA, and NC. CA has been the most strict housing wise and what they require (within legal guidelines) to allow a SD in when they are a banned breed, and a letter from doctor stating the person is disabled and requires the use of a SD. I’m starting to think the “certificates” legal was allowing were probably those from the websites you can purchase one from. I’m sure they’ve wisened up about those fake certs by now. We were able to take them as proof that they were SD or ESD. Probably what’s causing all the confusion with my comments, I was listening to legal, and they, at the time, probably thought those certs were valid as well.
> 
> So my bad, I was totally wrong about legal certifications for service dogs. I’ll eat my slice of crow pie on that one! Lol


There are legitimate certifications...I was "team certified" with my first service dog. I owner trained her with the help of a program and did a lot of the work on my own without supervision. So I would meet with the trainer periodically and she would observe our progress and offer guidance. She knew what the trained tasks were, trouble shooted helping me train some of them, and all of it culminated in a day long public access test where we took the train into Boston and my dog "worked" all day and the trainer observed her execution of tasks and her conduct in public. We ate at a restaurant, rode subway and commuter trains, walked through many crowds, went to the Aquarium. When my dog had gone through all that and conducted herself appropriately and done her job we got a badge from the organization that we were team certified on such and such a date. She also urged me not to use the badge to gain access because it could make it harder for other teams who didn't have one.

I don't know which organizations give their teams IDs like that... one would probably never ask if the dog were wearing gear identifying it from a known organization anyway.

But my current dog is no less a service dog and he won't be getting a badge through any organization.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"Breed/Species Restrictions: The Department’s Enforcement Office views a limitation based exclusively on breed of the service animal to not be allowed under its service animal regulation. The Enforcement Office intends to use available resources to ensure that dogs as a species are accepted for transport. Airlines are permitted to find that any specific animal, regardless of breed, poses a direct threat. "

from

https://www.transportation.gov/brie...al-statement-enforcement-priorities-regarding

So, I am not sure why Delta still plainly states that they do not allow pit bull type dogs. It does not seem legal but apparently no one is taking action against them?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > This is for the city and state of New York regarding housing. https://www.nycbar.org/pdf/report/u...ityHousingRightsandBuildingCodesofNewYork.pdf
> ...


That is interesting right before that New York State executive law paragraph you posted there is the New York State civil rights law states a service dog is trained by a qualified person which leads this open to interpretation such as you has trained a dog in with a previous program or have knowledge of training dogs for service dogs etc. Also with all these state laws, ada you can not ask for “certification” Federal law fair housing trump state laws and you can not ask for any “certification” of service dogs since there is no national registry of service dogs with set standards.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > @Jchrest Cowboygirls mentioned the airlines are changing constantly and with those breed bands it is interesting delta is banning emotional support dogs on the breed banned list regardless of another federal law so interesting. It’s hard to keep up. service dogs allowed like you said from the banned breed list - as they are covered under the ada and fair housing laws but emotional support dogs only the fair housing laws so I assume they are allowed from the breed banned list. I wonder if this will be changing.
> ...


Yeah I think putting the passengers at risk also must have some laws to protect them they must have some kind of case. I can’t imagine the lawsuits.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

It’s good to know about airlines, as I will be flying and will need a service dog. It will help me decide on breed, because pointy ears means aggressive dog to so many people. I’d rather get one that would cause no issues as to “friendliness.” I know they aren’t aggressive, but other people see them that way. And honestly, I try to respect others as much as possible in these type of situations. When I was a smoker prior to surgery, even I would get incredibly annoyed at the people who stand right outside a public place smoking. If I was out in public, I went out of my way to smoke somewhere that wouldn’t leave someone walking through a cloud of my smoke. I can understand other people’s fear of pointy eared breeds, and while I will always own one without fear, I don’t feel the need to have one for a SD that can and does make people fear for their safety.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jchrest said:


> It’s good to know about airlines, as I will be flying and will need a service dog. It will help me decide on breed, because pointy ears means aggressive dog to so many people. I’d rather get one that would cause no issues as to “friendliness.” I know they aren’t aggressive, but other people see them that way. And honestly, I try to respect others as much as possible in these type of situations. When I was a smoker prior to surgery, even I would get incredibly annoyed at the people who stand right outside a public place smoking. If I was out in public, I went out of my way to smoke somewhere that wouldn’t leave someone walking through a cloud of my smoke. I can understand other people’s fear of pointy eared breeds, and while I will always own one without fear, I don’t feel the need to have one for a SD that can and does make people fear for their safety.


If I had a GSD SD I'd campaign to the ends of the earth for their right to fly with my as a sd. But when I started thinking of trying another breed anyway it definitely went on PROS list that a lab or a golden is a recognizable socially acceptable breed for a SD.

At least GSDs have traditionally done the job and there are at least one or two orgs still using then primarily that a person could point to to make their case. 

Any other off breed that is often categorized as "dangerous" or that frightens ppl on sight, I would not ever try with. Surprisingly, some ppl still ask me what breed my lab is. I'll tell you if I ever try to fly with him a copy of his papers will come with me to prove what he is.

The other day he was working and a lady came up behing him and started petting him without permission. He glanced at her and wagged his tail and then I instructed him to come to a different position so I could tell her to leave him alone.

Another lady same day came up behind me and knelt down by my chair and tried to engage him. Both times i had little or no warning before ppl invaded our space and one of them did manage to pet him before he even knew she was there. He did get a little more waggy than he should have with the one who knelt down in his face. The one who snuck up and petted him I was so proud of his response. He glanced at her and then immediately refocused on me and indicated that he knew he was not supposed to be schmoozing. And this is a dog who LOVES all ppl and would have jumped for joy if I had told him he could go be petted. When I cued him he walked away from her and sat st my side while I explained to her she could not pet him. He still wears in training patches and he is still learning how to handle these situations. I was beyond proud for him to show me he knew he wasn't supposed to respond when touched but still gave a little polite tail wag to her. 

These were a bunch of clueless church folks... and these are things that happen to service dogs. It didn't stress my dog out in the least.


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