# score of the century - some breeders are this stupid



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i get a call from some guy with a foreign accent who moved to aus about a year ago, he is from a multiple generation family of schuts competitors, i can't even say or spell his name. 

anyhoo he wants to see my dog, i ask how the *#@! did you get my number and what do you want to see my dog for. he said he heard i was a .....butthead (my word for forum ettiquette) and so was my dog - i go, oh cool, you may continue.

we start talking peds etc and the guy is carmen/cliff/blackthorn/lee level ped nerd, i start raving about my fanatsy mating i want to put together from the progeny of deceased dogs and the guy has a female which is a direct line from, challenge for gsd students, a dog with the record for most progeny of a stud at schuts worlds all competing against each other and i beleive record for best hip improver ever recorded, also muliple working titles in different venues plus conformation titles, go on have a guess.

and how did he get this female, here is the reward for reading this far. she was imported by a show breeder who wanted to have a line of black dogs, you know it, they are trendy now and sell. she put 2 black sires over her in back to back matings but she never bred a single pure black puppy so she was left to rot in a kennel - guy got her for nothing!!!!!

breeder had no idea of the peds credentials or what they meant, just some a heap of fancy titles in ped and a bunch of black progeny on pdb, so bought her assuming if she was crossed with a black dog all the puppies would be black and big!!

this female is a few hours drive away, the guy said he can title an average gsd in 6 months if i want to title my dog we can skip the club scene and just turn up for a trial and the club has to allow it.

how cool is all that, top bloodline female, dumb breeder and an experienced competitor in my area all in one phone call from a complete stranger with a funny name.

is this some cosmic fate thing??

i tried calling him on a few things but he is rock solid on little known names outside of service dog world and did not back down when i said i am coming to see you and yr dogs are what you say they are.

gonna give my boy an eval as well.

yay for me, things don't suck all the time.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I am happy that you found an experienced trainer to work with! It's makes all the difference. Is he capable of doing helper work(some guys burn out physically to the exertion of the bitework)...that'd be even cooler!!

Keep us posted


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## Aliqua (May 16, 2013)

X11 if I read this correctly, you're in Australia? Where abouts are you!? I want to network early with my dog. I don't want to learn bad habits as an owner/trainer for my dog...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

That sounds great. How did he come to find you?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

which century?

just kidding . Let's look at the pedigree . Then to see if it works let's look at the pedigree of your male.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Oh nice one, it's awesome to find knowledgeable people that are happy to share their knowledge  

I had a similar piece of luck recently, was talking to a friend who mentioned her sister was staying with her and she was going to do some dog training - me having been looking for a good trainer for ages of course asked "oh what kind of training does she do" 
Turns out her sis is an ex marine K9 handler  So excited to be working with her now


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

x11 - I am a little confused.....

Is the female black? Does the showline breeder have black males? or did you type it wrong, and the showline breeder bought a black female, bred her to his black and red dogs and only got black and red pups and got disgusted???? As we know, a black female bred to a black and red male has very very very little chance of making a black puppy...not totally impossible - just nearly! Next generation, breed one of those, and the breeder will get his black showline crosses....

Yes - would like to see the pedigree too.....both - if you don't want to post, please PM me a link!

Lee


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Aliqua said:


> X11 if I read this correctly, you're in Australia? Where abouts are you!? I want to network early with my dog. I don't want to learn bad habits as an owner/trainer for my dog...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
yes in oz, i am in SEQ boonies, you and every other aus here _(* Removed by ADMIN *)_. what are you training for - vic has the population base but shuts is banned by no thanks to the showies.

i can pass on a name of the best/most credentialled trainer here, she is is back in the country at the moment and would know of any good trainers yr way, she is our only real international player.

pm me if you want more info but please tell me what yr training for.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

trying to answer all others in one post; 

Lee yes dam is black. Carmen, my dog is unregistered so only guess his ped and he only wants to look at my dog not breed from him as he is interested in the outcross to a short lived euro-sport dog that never bred much but is my dog's sire.

Nigel, not sure, but i have a big mouth and am widely known for usually less than good reasons.
Dani thanx, he is neither a breeder or decoy, just a trainer, but to compete i assume you pick up a bit of knowledge re lines and decoying.

think that covers everyone


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"think that covers everyone " not even a beginning.

You have talked about your male many times with high praise. He does not have to be registered but you do have to know his background, which you might , since you said that your dog's sire was a short-lived euro-sport dog that never bred much? Correct? So how is that great . 
and the guy has a female which is a direct line from, challenge for gsd students, a dog with the record for most progeny of a stud at schuts worlds all competing against each other and i beleive record for best hip improver ever recorded, also muliple working titles in different venues plus conformation titles, go on have a guess"

I would be interested in knowing what lines these might be.

this "she put 2 black sires over her in back to back matings but she never bred a single pure black puppy so she was left to rot in a kennel - guy got her for nothing" a solid black female bred to 2 black sires will only produce black. Two recessives. I have had a litter bred like this NOT to produce colour , just the sire and dam had what I wanted , and that produced 10 black pups.
Okay forget about it -- talk about this female "


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

not sure what yr question is, my dog's sire is a nukey son, not sure what became of the dog and i don't think anyone ever will, he was worked by bernhard flinks and BF raved about him, there is a you tube around of bf doing a B&H, he was a super fast, balanced full mouth dog, that got a lot of interest and dissapeared.

i say my dog is great cos he is my dog, if he was total crap he would still be great cos he is my dog, he is of interest cos he is an outcross from an old line to the nukey son. the guy wanted to see how that worked out as best he could as he is clearly tracking down the progeny. 

so whats up?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> x11 - I am a little confused.....
> 
> Is the female black? Does the showline breeder have black males? or did you type it wrong, and the showline breeder bought a black female, bred her to his black and red dogs and only got black and red pups and got disgusted???? As we know, a black female bred to a black and red male has very very very little chance of making a black puppy...not totally impossible - just nearly! Next generation, breed one of those, and the breeder will get his black showline crosses....
> 
> ...



Same thoughts crossed my mind, I thought I was missreading. Could you clarify? Because if it's true... it doesn't make sense.

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the question was, lets see the pedigree of this perfect female


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i said she was perfect? all i know is she was bought to make solid black puppies in order to make solid black puppies and this did not occur in the way the breeder planned. if i get any more info i will post it or better yet i will let the current owner know there is some interest here and he can share whatever he chooses to himself.

so anyone still want to analyse my own dog's ped, have tried this before but got no responses - pm me if you want the task i would find it interesting and appreciate it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I thought you said you don't know your dogs pedigree?


> my dog is unregistered so only guess his ped


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

his sire is on pdb but i don't know the line well, i don't see many famous names that i am aware of even tho the grandsire was a known great old competitor but def not famous in broader terms.

his motherline paper work is a bit patchy and i have no ped for his actual mother who is unregistered and i don't know what litter or dog she is, working her was enough ped for me.

i have a ped for his grandsire on the mother line, the older dogs on his motherline are notorius for forged peds they were owned by some dubious people as yard dogs. glad to pm you what i know if you actually are going to do an analysis on the peds/partial peds.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I thought people were asking about the lines of the "find of a century female"...the black dog who, when bred to other black dogs failed to product black pups....Australia def sounds like a strange sort of place as far as dogs go....


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

the female is imported.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Female of the century's pedigree? Where is it?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Then it must be the weather....

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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

this was my response




x11 said:


> i said she was perfect? all i know is she was bought to make solid black puppies in order to make solid black puppies and this did not occur in the way the breeder planned.* if i get any more info i will post it or better yet i will let the current owner know there is some interest here and he can share whatever he chooses to himself.*
> 
> so anyone still want to analyse my own dog's ped, have tried this before but got no responses - pm me if you want the task i would find it interesting and appreciate it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

This is sort of disjointed....

this female is black - fine....she was bought by a showline breeder to make black pups and did not - ergo - she was bred to a black and red showline male and would be very very unlikely to make black pups with him....the only way to be sure you will get black puppies to to breed 2 black dogs....

as far as "famous sire" - that did not make alot of sense either - there have been many many dogs who were in BSP and sired BSP dogs - there is only one dog who I can think of who is a "hip improver" that is a big name - but he was not the best sire ever either...

Lee


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

haha, to be honest i actually got so excited by meeting someone, albeit by phone, that has actually been thru the whole titling process (allegedly) and is interested in some of the same lines i have been a fan of, i actually do not even know the females name. i do intend to find out tho when we get around to meeting up.

so is anyone going to bother to analyse my boys partial ped info, prefer pm. or was the game here just to cut down the female i talked up?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee, I know who you are referring to, but based on the initial info about BSP and best producer and hip improver....I took for granted the OP could "read" pedigrees.....anyway I am confused.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

x11 said:


> so is anyone going to bother to analyse my boys partial ped info, prefer pm. or was the game here just to cut down the female i talked up?


You are an amusing person - touch and go in terms of true experience and knowledge, but talks and talks (...and talks) until we either get fed up or lost in your web of illusions (delusions?) to bother following up anymore. 

Post the male and female's pedigree - it's simple. If you can't, stop talking. "Game here to cut down the female" - what does that mean? Your story has more holes than Swiss cheese. Name the female and spill the pedigree - if not, we've wasted enough of our time with your smoke, mirrors, and delusions of grandeur....


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

glad yr amused. did you not even read post 23 qb? 


*like every other member here - you are free to not click on my threads if they are not to yr liking...just sayin. *

as you made it personal i doubt you could even tell what is real and what is not anyways, but thats just my opinion. 

thanks for your concern and synopsis.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

still no pedigree and concrete info

carry on!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What is this guy going to do to get your dog titled in six months?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

train it i guess?

and no, i am not going to send my dog away to a stranger to be trained, surprisingly i have lost the need to prove anything in that way.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

qbchottu said:


> still no pedigree and concrete info
> 
> carry on!


Hahaha, X11...why don't you post what you DO know about the pedigrees? Why does it have to be a pm? Some of the people here can take the pieces you DO know and piece them together.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Summarizing, OP opens a thread about this guy with this outer space female. When he is told what he says doesn't make sense, genetics keep refusing to work like he wants, OP feels offended because people ask about real pedigree instead of offering private information of half background of his dog.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i think you got it


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so you can title a dog in Australia without it being registered? Just curious.

As I told you in response to your pm, when one (general one) posts something like you did in your original, of course people want to see a pedigree or atleast the dogs name..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Now, coming from you, in the context of this thread that you've started, that's hilarious...

LOL!!!!!!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:







x11 said:


> glad yr amused. did you not even read post 23 qb?
> 
> 
> *like every other member here - you are free to not click on my threads if they are not to yr liking...just sayin. *
> ...


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Maybe she was bred to solid blacks and blacks but with a little white on their chests/toes or something - so they were not "solid black???"
Otherwise - as others have said, black x black = 100% black, assuming no white/liver/blue recessives floating around in there...


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Iv read every post including the first one four times and I still can't understand ****. Call me a dog noob but the ops way of wording things is beyond me


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum , want to be more confused , you said "this female is black - fine....she was bought by a showline breeder to make black pups and did not - ergo - she was bred to a black and red showline male and would be very very unlikely to make black pups with him.."

but x11 said "wanted to have a line of black dogs, you know it, they are trendy now and sell. she put 2 black sires over her in back to back matings but she never bred a single pure black puppy "

and that is impossible . Black to black will only produce black . (to my knowledge - both being recessive genes )

okay tell us x11 "and the guy has a female which is a direct line from, challenge for gsd students, a dog with the record for most progeny of a stud at schuts worlds all competing against each other and i beleive record for best hip improver ever recorded, also muliple working titles in different venues plus conformation titles, go on have a guess" who is this super duper female?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

carmen, we may never know he didn't get her name


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jakoda I now realize this.
So to a better question , Lee , who was the hip improver --- in the Willis books or Wooton books Mutz Pelztierfarm who himself was noted as NZ was a recognized hip improver.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP you really should try to get as much of the pedigrees as you can. I know of several Police K9's that were bred by novice-breeders, simply because the male and female used were, themselves, excellent dogs for the work. Not one of the puppies in the two breedings made it through the K9 selection process. There is more to genetics than just the mother and father's phenotypic qualities...many things can be hidden that show up unexpectedly at the combination of the genetics. The reason pedigrees are so important, and why successful, responsible, experienced, breeders, pay such close attention to them and the GENOtype of the parents, instead of solely the eye-pleasing PHENOtypes, is because you can get a MUCH more clear picture of what the pups will be like with the combination.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

carmspack said:


> Jakoda I now realize this.
> So to a better question , Lee , who was the hip improver --- in the Willis books or Wooton books Mutz Pelztierfarm who himself was noted as NZ was a recognized hip improver.


Well - everyone talks about Aly being a hip improver...but he does not fit the other somewhat garbled criteria - without punctuation - it is anyone's guess!

Mutz - also a common factor in many dwarf pedigrees!!! According to the Univ of Utrecht...!


Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have heard that about Mutz also.....but since Dwarfs prolly appear less than .001 percent of the time and Mutz was known also for good structure and temperament....I have no problem with him. But I always keep that in mind lest I see a dog linebred like five times in six generations....then if it was Mutz or another known dog for dwarfism I would raise an eyebrow.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

you know i see my error in the way this thread was worded and the thoughts behind it, oh well, as long as i am learning i will make mistakes.

still i got some good info from it which is the main thing.


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