# Future schutzhund puppy



## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Just wondering, if a puppy that is going to participate in the sports of schutzhund, how much damage would it cost the handler to correct the puppy for biting instead of redirecting? or should corrections and redirection both be used?
Lets say it's hard for the handler to redirect a teething puppy with a tug toy to avoid any teeth misalignment, should he still tug or correct the puppy.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Even if you are redirecting a bite during teething, you don't have to tug. Or if you do just go gently so pup will think the game is on. 
I've not had to deal with inappropriate biting though. 

I gave my pups recreational fresh bones to chew and they had each other to chew on(correcting each other too).

I think if the dog has a genetic strong grip/deep bite, correcting for biting inappropriately is not going to be an issue. 
I have seen dogs that have too much obedience early on become inhibited or reliant on the handler for direction. I like a pup that is biddable, yet a bit independent so they aren't so handler sensitive. That is just as important in raising a confident puppy regardless of what venue you are training in.


----------



## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Why do you even have to correct it? Just ignore the behavior and they stop biting you simple as that.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I have seen dogs that have too much obedience early on become inhibited or reliant on the handler for direction. I like a pup that is biddable, yet a bit independent so they aren't so handler sensitive. That is just as important in raising a confident puppy regardless of what venue you are training in.


Very interesting! Could you expand on this? What, generally speaking, would constitute too much obedience and what do you consider early?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've seen dogs that are so obedient to their handler that they cannot go out in front of them to do any protection work, they need their handler right next to them or they are insecure. 
Some of it may be genetic, but sometimes it is because the handler early on corrected the dog if s/he pulled on the line, barked or jumped in daily life. They constantly check in w/ handler and won't engage with a helper because they worry they are doing something wrong. So letting a pup have some independence is a good thing, but you still want a pup that will engage and be biddable/fine line!

Many times the dogs weren't going to train in SchH and then the handler decided at a year or two they'd like to give it a shot. But the obedience was instilled and hard to change behaviors that are so ingrained.

Training manners in the home and socially are fine, but you need to be sure you aren't inhibiting a pup when they display other behaviors. Best to work on rear end awareness and focus, heavy praise so pup thinks they are the best thing in the world. You can easily squash confidence, but it is almost impossible to build it if it wasn't there during the foundation.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

I frequently read on this forum the virtues of starting young puppies in obedience classes for training and socialization, and then to continue to take another class then another. Putting genetics aside, could this early obedience backfire and result in insecurity and worry, leading to fear aggressive behaviors?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No, training is fine, but too much can cause a bit of inhibition. I took Karlo to an obedience class at 14 weeks ,but passed on the teaching NOT to jump up type stuff. I wanted a happy pup with manners & confidence so we did scent pads, restrained recalls, focus work and taught positions. Should have done perch work too, but didn't learn about it til he was older. 

There was a social time after that class and after two sessions, I didn't let Karlo participate. There was a pup with no doggy manners and would just grab onto Karlo and tug at his neck scruff(same age, and a GSD as well) I didn't want Karlo to become dog aggressive and that dog clearly didn't know how to play properly, Karlo warned him, but the dog didn't get it. As I had two other dogs at home, Karlo learned from them safely and is now a great w/ other strange dogs isn't reactive though I don't let him play with others ever.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> No, training is fine, but too much can cause a bit of inhibition.


I know each puppy is different, but what would one expect to observe to make the determination that it is getting to be too much?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would just learn about the pup and go from there. Keeping the confidence level very, very high is the most important thing along with engagement to the handler(again this should be a given regardless of where/what you will be training in)
Too much would be the pup checking out, not staying focused, so short sweet sessions ended on a positive note is best, end it before the pup checks out!
Adjust the expectations but keep in mind how the pup is maturing/progressing. 
Stepping back now & then is normal and if you are working on one thing, it may show up in something else you are training. 
My dog progressed once I put pressure on him, because his respect level grew. But that wasn't til he was almost 3 yrs old. He still isn't mentally or physically mature at 3....so I didn't rush with certain exercises. Though I could see that pressure affected certain aspects of our training.


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Genetics always rule. We have a dog same age as Gnash in our club, he went through more OB than I have ever seen any pup go through, I mean he was ready to do a BH at 1 year old, even had the dumbbell hold down pat and was tracking a SchH3 track with articles. Never did he have any issues with Schutzhund training to this day, he is now 3 yrs old and multiple times IPO3.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Depends on the lines of course....I prefer not to rush because to me it is about the journey and not the the titles. And I know if I'd rushed my dog, it wouldn't have been right by him. 
I don't use electric either. Not because I'm adverse to it, but haven't had a reason to go there.


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

No matter how you look at it, early OB does not in any way change the future outcome for that dog. If a dog shows insecurity later it is because it was always insecure and it only got diagnosed later! not because the handler worked on manners when the dog was a pup. This is one of the greatest myths floating around, at the end of the days genetics rule everything, I am a firm believer of this.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not disagreeing with you Faisal, but a proper foundation is also very important, no?
Working on manners is different than putting pressure early on. It can affect the outcome certainly.


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Foundation is always important, even if you want to go do dock diving. Agreed on this front


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I started Kastle on his foundation the day I brought him home. He has been doing obedience (a playful, fun form of it) since day one and I have no issues with him being "too obedient". I also did the ME style of leash pressure, which I've been warned would result in him being too sensitive to the line - not so, he is a strong, confident (bordering on cocky) and self-assured male, I have had absolutely no carry-over on the leash pressure in tracking or protection (he's only done a limited amount of the latter due to mouth surgery). His obedience is very flashy and very animated, clearly he's not squashed due to early obedience. He loves it and offers it on a daily basis to try to trigger something he wants (attention, food, toy).

In terms of biting/jumping up. I redirected for quite a long while and then when I decided he "knew" what was ok to mouth/bite and what wasn't, I added corrections with the redirection. He's not soft though so the correction did not make him avoid/shut down and not go for the toy. He immediately went for the toy/acceptable object. Same for jumping up - I encourage him to jump on me for reward play/rough-housing and tugging. He is not allowed to jump on others and on the rare occasion he forgets, he gets a correction. From day one.



Packen said:


> Genetics always rule. We have a dog same age as Gnash in our club, he went through more OB than I have ever seen any pup go through, I mean he was ready to do a BH at 1 year old, even had the dumbbell hold down pat and was tracking a SchH3 track with articles. Never did he have any issues with Schutzhund training to this day, he is now 3 yrs old and multiple times IPO3.


Do I know this dog? I am curious if I've seen him?



Packen said:


> No matter how you look at it, early OB does not in any way change the future outcome for that dog. *If a dog shows insecurity later it is because it was always insecure and it only got diagnosed later! not because the handler worked on manners when the dog was a pup.* This is one of the greatest myths floating around, at the end of the days *genetics rule everything*, I am a firm believer of this.





Packen said:


> *Foundation is always important*, even if you want to go do dock diving. Agreed on this front


:thumbup::thumbup:

Agree agree agree!!!

My reactive/aggressive Dutch Shepherd had a very similar upbringing to my GSD pup, Kastle and while the DS got more nervy as he got older (I ended up selling him), the GSD is more and more solid as he gets older. Same owner, same handling style, same amount of control/obedience/freedom etc and vastly different outcomes.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think people really over-play the whole "raising a SchH puppy" thing. Like Faisal I agree that genetics are really going to be the most influencing factor. If the puppy is really confident and sound, being taught he cannot bite people and be mouthy is not going to destroy his chances at Schutzhund. I have two Schutzhund dogs and never made any extra allowances with them because they were Schutzhund dogs. In contrast, their lives have quite a bit more structure and I have much higher expectations of them than I do my pet dog. I start obedience from day one with all my dogs because it is fun for them and a good way to bond. 

I don't tolerate annoying, mouthy puppies whether they are for Schutzhund or a couch-warming pet. But, on the flip side, you won't see me buying a dog for Schutzhund that can't take "no" and a minor correction and redirection as a puppy. If the dog is too soft and overly sensitive to me, I probably wouldn't have bought him in the first place.

As far as doing OB early on, I think if the owner struggles with training it may increase the chances of causing problems but those problems are with specific exercises related to the training. Doing OB early on is not going to ruin the dog. A good temperament is a good temperament. I've seen beaten and neglected dogs always happy and willing to work and I've seen (and owned) spoiled, privileged dogs that are always soft and sensitive. I also just LIKE doing obedience. I like spending time with the dog, teaching new tricks, getting started on a solid foundation. To me it makes no sense to get a puppy FOR Schutzhund and then just do nothing with it for a year, but that's just me. I pick out dogs that show a high food/hunt drive so they will enjoy working as puppies. I don't think that doing a lot of OB early on is much of an advantage as far as high level competition, but I get my dogs for the training and not just for the trophies. I really enjoy the process much more than the end result.

And as an aside, yes, I learned the hard way that foundation *is* really important for dock diving!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just wanted to add to onyx's post...its very true. I just started tracking with my 21 month old, and our instructors both do Schutzhund. They are telling everyone in the class not to worry because a dog that has only been taught obedience gets quite confused when the leash is off and they're allowed to just be. They always expect a correction or a command from us, and when they don't get it, its really weird to them. Just in 7 days I can see my boy's confidence building and he's getting used to the idea of just tracking by himself without me there to pull on him.

I think genetics lets them rebound and drive gets them through this issue, but if you do too much obedience for too long it can be an issue. Now, I never had Schutzhund in mind, and we're just doing tracking, and when I got him he was only going to be a pet anyways, so we raised a pet. There were corrections and there was absolutely no mouthing. I didn't even go the redirect route, we did the high pitched sounds and then finally collar corrections. I can't say much about raising a Schutzhund puppy, but from what I've seen, redirecting/letting them figure out the correct behavior is pretty great, if you have time to deal with those stages I suggest just redirecting, if you don't have time, small corrections won't hurt him. The problem with corrections is that you have to correct a behavior he already knows/understands. If he doesn't understand "no bite" then he won't understand the correction for biting after you say that anyways.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

To me is much more about HOW the obedience is done than about HOW MUCH. For my pups the first months are like Kindergarten, all they learn is through games and songs, in a Sesame Street way. The moment I need to use corrections or pressure to teach or polish something, is the moment I just stop and wait. Each dog will show when waiting is best for him. 

By example, I was struggling with teaching the dumbbell to Akela at 8 months old. He would drop it mid way or play with it. The best training for him was stop training and trying again at 18 months old... _et voilà!_ Perfect retrieve at second toss. I don't attempt to teach an about turn to a pup who doesn't even know he as 4 legs, but other than that heeling is almost perfect at 1 year old. Now... I don't ask them to walk on a loose leash nor don't jumping on people, he was a mess at that age and I didn't care because I don't walk my dogs on the neighborhood nor have small kids.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Just wanted to add to onyx's post...its very true. I just started tracking with my 21 month old, and our instructors both do Schutzhund. They are telling everyone in the class not to worry because a dog that has only been taught obedience gets quite confused when the leash is off and they're allowed to just be. They always expect a correction or a command from us, and when they don't get it, its really weird to them. Just in 7 days I can see my boy's confidence building and he's getting used to the idea of just tracking by himself without me there to pull on him.
> 
> I think genetics lets them rebound and drive gets them through this issue, but if you do too much obedience for too long it can be an issue. Now, I never had Schutzhund in mind, and we're just doing tracking, and when I got him he was only going to be a pet anyways, so we raised a pet. There were corrections and there was absolutely no mouthing. I didn't even go the redirect route, we did the high pitched sounds and then finally collar corrections. I can't say much about raising a Schutzhund puppy, but from what I've seen, redirecting/letting them figure out the correct behavior is pretty great, if you have time to deal with those stages I suggest just redirecting, if you don't have time, small corrections won't hurt him. The problem with corrections is that you have to correct a behavior he already knows/understands. If he doesn't understand "no bite" then he won't understand the correction for biting after you say that anyways.



I'll agree to disagree. I've seen plenty of dogs that do obedience as puppies and have NO problems tracking or doing protection. In fact most people I've trained with anywhere do obedience with their puppies to some extent. The dogs that had issues working independently were just like that regardless of their previous training and in fact those dogs usually belonged to owners that were pretty clueless and never did much obedience.

A lot of Schutzhund people will insist you can't do obedience with puppies because it messes them up but guess what...every person I know who's told me this has never TRIED obedience with puppies so of course they think that. I on the other hand (as well as my friends) do obedience with puppies and have absolutely no problems having a dog that can work within the context, problem solve, and use his drives without always wanting to hide next to me.

You can correct/punish for a behavior a dog understands but that's only one quadrant of operant conditioning. You can very easily use -R and a dog doesn't have to know the behavior. I use -R with puppies that mouth on me. If they bite on my hand I push my thumb into the top of their mouth which they don't like and then try to spit me out. It's not meant to be a punishment but is a negative stimulus that reinforces the behavior of releasing me or not biting me in the first place.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I'll agree to disagree. I've seen plenty of dogs that do obedience as puppies and have NO problems tracking or doing protection. In fact most people I've trained with anywhere do obedience with their puppies to some extent. The dogs that had issues working independently were just like that regardless of their previous training and in fact those dogs usually belonged to owners that were pretty clueless and never did much obedience.
> 
> A lot of Schutzhund people will insist you can't do obedience with puppies because it messes them up but guess what...every person I know who's told me this has never TRIED obedience with puppies so of course they think that. I on the other hand (as well as my friends) do obedience with puppies and have absolutely no problems having a dog that can work within the context, problem solve, and use his drives without always wanting to hide next to me.
> 
> You can correct/punish for a behavior a dog understands but that's only one quadrant of operant conditioning. You can very easily use -R and a dog doesn't have to know the behavior. I use -R with puppies that mouth on me. If they bite on my hand I push my thumb into the top of their mouth which they don't like and then try to spit me out. It's not meant to be a punishment but is a negative stimulus that reinforces the behavior of releasing me or not biting me in the first place.


My only question would be how long they did the obedience for and how involved they were in it. Like my dog, who has been doing it from 6 months, 2-3 times a week in class, and has been trialing in the AKC already. It is a little more difficult to snap him out of it, but its happening each day, so I completely agree that it is all about the dog. It just takes time to realize that something different is going on.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We do obedience from week one (7-8 weeks) and myself and the people I train with do it quite a bit, depending on what we're working on sometimes multiple times a day or sometimes a few longer sessions several times a week. It doesn't take any time for the dogs to realize that instead of obedience they are now doing protection, now doing flyball, now doing lure coursing... 

Maybe the difference we don't ask them for obedience when we're not _doing obedience_. I don't do competition heeling around the block when we're going for a walk and I don't expect my dogs to prance up to the starting line for a lure course. There's training obedience and then there are people that try to train obedience in the wrong contexts. I have seen clueless people do stuff like take their dog out when another dog is doing protection and then constantly correct their dog for barking or getting up from a platz while a decoy is agitating a dog 10 feet away. That sort of thing is not ruining a dog with obedience it's just plain dumb.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You're coming from more of a Schutzhund obedience training, and I see that now. You mix things in while you're doing the obedience work. Your example of the agitation is completely ridiculous and that is ruining the dog. I was only planning on doing obedience work with him, and maybe later on agility, but we got a tracking class and so we joined that. It's just things I've noticed since starting it with him a little over a week ago.

It will also be way different with the next dog because I'll know what I want to do with her. But back to the OP, I don't think you can do much wrong at this point, just socialize and get your dog doing as many things as possible. I think that the redirecting helps in the future to train the dog easier to bite, because they never get told not to bite, but its something that can definitely be worked past.


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Hey Falon, I was referring to Cody's dog Balius.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> You're coming from more of a Schutzhund obedience training


Yes, since the thread title refers to a puppy for Schutzhund training, that is what I'm talking about.

My points are this: 1) If the OP wants to do obedience with his/her puppy, s/he should do it. It's his/her puppy and if it was obtained *for* Schutzhund then I'll optimistally assume the puppy has the right drives and nerve in which case the dog is not going to be ruined or end up being too dependent on the handler just because it didn't get "put up" from doing obedience until it was some arbitrary age that is insisted upon by Schutzhund people that have never done much obedience with puppies so of course they are going to advise against it. 2) If the OP wants the puppy to not bite then s/he can correct it or redirect it or use -R or whatever s/he wants to use to get the puppy to quit mouthing. It is a myth that puppies going into Schutzhund should be allowed or even encouraged to be bratty and mouthy with no manners or self-control.


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

martemchik said:


> My only question would be how long they did the obedience for and how involved they were in it.


Kastle started obedience at 8 weeks old, 2-3 sessions daily, plus classes. Now I have cut back to 3-5 sessions weekly but the sessions are much longer. If we are traveling, I do more sessions per day.



Packen said:


> Hey Falon, I was referring to Cody's dog Balius.


Sweet! I thought that was who you were talking about - Jason compares Kastle to Balius a lot and I like the dog a lot so I'm excited to see what maturation brings to Kastle 



Liesje said:


> Yes, since the thread title refers to a puppy for Schutzhund training, that is what I'm talking about.
> 
> It is a myth that puppies going into Schutzhund should be allowed or even encouraged to be bratty and mouthy with no manners or self-control.


Yes, me too and Agreed!!!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I agree with you on the puppy biting issue, but its just interesting that there are so many different ways to train dogs and I don't like it when someone gets "locked into" one way of training. I wouldn't really worry about "ruining" your dog especially for the reasons liesje listed. If its a good dog, its a good dog. The little nuances in training techniques or raising puppies can be debated for decades, its really about finding the instructor you like, you agree with, and then seeing where it takes you. If you mess up, lesson learned for the next one.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I should clarify my response on the obedience subject which came from this question(pet classes not SchH style obedience/there is a difference as pet trainers usually teach handlers to squash certain behaviors)


> I frequently read on this forum the virtues of starting young puppies in obedience classes for training and socialization, and then to continue to take another class then another


Anyone that has been doing SchH knows there is a difference in training a pup for the sport vs pet obedience classes....ob pet classes seldom do you see handler's pop a ball or tug as reward, the dogs are inhibited in their training because they can't let loose or have fun! So someone doing pet classes over and over then starting in ScHH may have to fix some behaviors to get the dog to engage. 
I'm all for obedience foundation early, but as Catu posted, there are differences in the way of training.


----------



## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Just wanted to add to onyx's post...its very true. I just started tracking with my 21 month old, and our instructors both do Schutzhund. They are telling everyone in the class not to worry because a dog that has only been taught obedience gets quite confused when the leash is off and they're allowed to just be.


Why do your trainers assume that these people are not allowing their dogs off leash and letting them just be dogs? Or is that part of their training?



Liesje said:


> I'll agree to disagree. I've seen plenty of dogs that do obedience as puppies and have NO problems tracking or doing protection. In fact most people I've trained with anywhere do obedience with their puppies to some extent. The dogs that had issues working independently were just like that regardless of their previous training and in fact those dogs usually belonged to owners that were pretty clueless and never did much obedience.


Are you saying there is an observable link between dogs working independently and lack of obedience training? Why do you think that is?



onyx'girl said:


> I should clarify my response on the obedience subject which came from this question(pet classes not SchH style obedience/there is a difference as pet trainers usually teach handlers to squash certain behaviors)
> 
> Anyone that has been doing SchH knows there is a difference in training a pup for the sport vs pet obedience classes....ob pet classes seldom do you see handler's pop a ball or tug as reward, the dogs are inhibited in their training because they can't let loose or have fun! So someone doing pet classes over and over then starting in ScHH may have to fix some behaviors to get the dog to engage.
> I'm all for obedience foundation early, but as Catu posted, there are differences in the way of training.


Thanks for posting this, as it was going to be my next question. What behaviors do pet classes tend to squash? So if somebody did not want to train in schutzhund but wanted a protective family dog, should they opt for pet obedience or schutzhund obedience?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Falkosmom said:


> Why do your trainers assume that these people are not allowing their dogs off leash and letting them just be dogs? Or is that part of their training?


We all know each other. I've been part of that club for my dogs entire life, other people have known each other longer than that. This is the first time there is a tracking class going on and all of the dogs in it are dogs that have been either shown and then taught obedience or just straight obedience. We train for AKC obedience trials, so that's probably somewhere between pet and Schutzhund, but it is more like pet when you're talking about squashing unwanted behaviors (especially because it is unknown which people will go on to trial when their dogs are pups). My dog is the youngest in the tracking class, the others are all at least 4 years old and doing it for the first time. We're doing circle tracking at the moment, we'll see where it goes from there.

I guess the people do let their dogs off their leash, but they're very used to the formal obedience training when everyone is around and none of them have done sports where the leash is off (this I know for sure).

I hope that answered your question. So its not that the dogs aren't ever off leash, its just that they've always done obedience.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> What behaviors do pet classes tend to squash? So if somebody did not want to train in schutzhund but wanted a protective family dog, should they opt for pet obedience or schutzhund obedience?


Not so much squashing, I guess but not developing some things that SchH training normally does.
Pet obedience classes are a bit boring, IMO. The same ol' same ol' ~ training different positions and heeling. 
Even if clickers are used the reward is usually food and food gets boring after awhile, too. 
So the dogs are 'factory workers' as an example...very repetitive motion exercises. Drive levels are lower in that type environment.
It is changing though, and the training techniques are more about engagement and enthusiasm. I train with a competitive obedience instructor and she has changed up her methods in the past year after seeing how we engage/reward with SchH style training. She started going to Bridget Carlsen and learned there are better ways than what she's been doing for the past 20 years. 

SchH obedience training is fun, the dogs happily engage with the handler, they are rewarded with a ball toss, or short tug session to keep them in a higher state of drive. And most often SchH is outside, which helps the dog learn to focus thru distractions/keeping the level of enthusiasm higher as well. 

If a GSD is confident and has stable nerves it will be protective of the home and family regardless of which type obedience you do. But the dog should be able to discern what not to react to as well.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Falkosmom said:


> Are you saying there is an observable link between dogs working independently and lack of obedience training? Why do you think that is?


No way. I'm saying I don't think there's a link between dogs that have done a lot of OB as puppies and then not being able to work independently. Some people say that if you do "too much" obedience with a puppy the dog will not be able to focus on the task at hand when it comes out for tracking or protection. I have not observed that to be true, at least not *because of* obedience training. Dogs I have observed to not be focused or motivated for tracking or protection were because of their genetics and not because of obedience training or lack thereof.


----------

