# Pulling, barking, whining on leash. Unbearable



## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Hey all, just wondering if anyone can give me some insight on why my guy pulls, whines, cries, barks and yips when on walks and how to correct it. He’s got a prong collar on and now is at least manageable on walks now (he used to pull and yank so hard I couldn’t even walk him, and my husbands hand would go numb within a few minutes). He doesn’t get as much walking time in as I’d like because of these behaviors and I would like to correct it so I can walk him on my own. 

I’ve tried a “with me” command that works perfectly at home with treats, but as soon as he gets on the trail I could shove the most delicious treats in his mouth and he would literally turn his head at them. No matter what I do whatever drive he has that makes him act the way he does in the video attached is much much higher than his drive to earn treats or affection or play. I attatched a link to a YouTube video of his behavior. He does eventually calm down after about 15-20 minutes enough that he stops yipping but he never stops pulling. Sorry about me mouth breathing in the video I’m sick ?

Link:

https://youtu.be/0QCSzAMmQSk


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You're going to need professional trainer help for that one. I can understand a dog doing that if it saw another dog or something exciting as that would be fairly normal, but it doesn't look like you have much in the way of stimulation there and the dog is still going nuts. You're in over your head with that one. Go find a pro.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What are you doing for exercise for your dog? 

Do you ever let him sniff and enjoy all the wonderful smells you are exposing him to, just let him be a dog? 

Situational awareness is a trademark trait of this breed, they are very alert and interested in their environment.

I see an energetic and excited puppy that is anxious to get loose, run, sniff and explore his world. Leash walking is no exercise for a German Shepherd. Walking by your side instead of on a loose leash is no fun for him either. These dogs LOVE to follow their noses.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Baillif said:


> You're going to need professional trainer help for that one. I can understand a dog doing that if it saw another dog or something exciting as that would be fairly normal, but it doesn't look like you have much in the way of stimulation there and the dog is still going nuts. You're in over your head with that one. Go find a pro.


Oh boy. Kinda what I thought but I’m not gonna lie it’s tough to hear. ☹ We’ve been through obedience training with a GSD friendly trainer but I don’t think it was a right fit. Guess we’re just gonna have to save up the big bucks and get a really excellent trainer.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What are you doing for exercise for your dog?
> 
> Do you ever let him sniff and enjoy all the wonderful smells you are exposing him to, just let him be a dog?
> 
> ...


We are constantly playing with him in the yard and he gets PLENTY of exercise in the yard. My husband was holding a little close in this video yes, but he acts like this no matter what we let him do on walks. Most of the time he won’t even sniff he just spins and jumps and barks and whines and pulls. Like I said he eventually calms down but it’s unbearable for the first 20 min or so.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

He is excited, that's all. These dogs need to run and he is trying to get you to go. Is it safe there to let him off leash, at least for a little while?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Do you have any fenced in areas off your property you could let him run around in? I'm not a fan of dog parks but I have used the separate fenced off portions meant for small dogs/puppies that nobody ever uses. 

If you could work with him, play, let him run off some energy. Get him used to being in a new and novel area (make sure it's small enough he has to stay pretty close.) Perhaps work with a long line so he has room to move and sniff without pulling on the lead at all. Then work on the with me command. Right now he might be too wound up getting to go places. 

A prong isn't going to do much good if it's constantly digging into the dogs neck. You want quick corrections not constant pressure. 

If you can a trainer is a great idea. Just take your time to find somebody who knows what they're doing and can help you out.

And excercising/playing with him hard before you go out on a walk may help. Get him to where he's starting to wind down so he's not amped up once you go.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> He is excited, that's all. These dogs need to run and he is trying to get you to go. Is it safe there to let him off leash, at least for a little while?


He’s (new) people aggressive. We cant let him off the leash on public trails unfortunately. We take him regularly to the dog park for heavy duty playing for about 2 hours (usually about twice a week, it’s very muddy there lately and people are always bringing their little dogs into the big dog side so it’s not possible to go more often) but I am home everyday since I work from home and we play ball (his absolute favorite game of all time hahah) for at minimum 30 minutes straight 3-5 times a day, usually in longer increments. We also do obedience training every night for a minimum of 15 min. He’s out and about with me at all times except when it’s bedtime and when we leave the house, at which point he goes in his crate. He was crate trained as well. He usually will go to his crate by midnight and looks at us like “I’m tried. Can’t you give me a break??” He’s a perfect dog in the yard. Doesn’t leave, knows his boundaries, listens to commands. Out of the yard he’s a complete mess.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> Do you have any fenced in areas off your property you could let him run around in? I'm not a fan of dog parks but I have used the separate fenced off portions meant for small dogs/puppies that nobody ever uses.
> 
> If you could work with him, play, *let him run off some energy*. *Get him used to being in a new and novel area* (make sure it's small enough he has to stay pretty close.) *Perhaps work with a long line so he has room to move and sniff without pulling on the lead at all.* Then work on the with me command. *Right now he might be too wound up getting to go places.
> *
> ...


A lot of people inadvertently teach their dogs to pull with a lack of exercise and stimulation and then trying to get the dog to walk calmly by their side on a walk in an exciting environment. Teaching calm works best with a dog who has been exercised first and if being taught on a trail setting, a dog that has been allowed to explore its environment first.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> *He’s (new) people aggressive. *We cant let him off the leash on public trails unfortunately. We take him regularly to the dog park for heavy duty playing for about 2 hours (usually about twice a week, it’s very muddy there lately and people are always bringing their little dogs into the big dog side so it’s not possible to go more often) but I am home everyday since I work from home and we play ball (his absolute favorite game of all time hahah) for at minimum 30 minutes straight 3-5 times a day, usually in longer increments. We also do obedience training every night for a minimum of 15 min. He’s out and about with me at all times except when it’s bedtime and when we leave the house, at which point he goes in his crate. He was crate trained as well. He usually will go to his crate by midnight and looks at us like “I’m tried. Can’t you give me a break??” He’s a perfect dog in the yard. Doesn’t leave, knows his boundaries, listens to commands. Out of the yard he’s a complete mess.


Can you explain how he is people aggressive?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Is he on a prong collar in that video? Is some of that him giving himself yanks on the prong and then reacting to it?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The whole Dog Whisperer thing where they say a tired dog is a good dog is a dirty myth. It is like saying a serial killer who spent all day lifting weights in the prison gym and is now exhausted and in bed is a good person. They are just tired, and when they rest and are refreshed they will again continue to be who they are. 

I am not saying exercise does not play an important role in raising a healthy dog. But it is secondary or perhaps tertiary not primary like the dog whisperer would claim.

Your end solution will be found by this formula.

1. The dog (as well as you) must be taught a clear and common language of agreement and disagreement and that language is backed by physical consequences. Good consequences for the things with which you agree. Bad consequences for the things with which you do not agree.

2. You will have to use this language to disagree with the state of mind of the dog as well as the disagreeable behavior itself. Then agreement with the new desirable alternative behavior or state of mind.

3. Consistency in this matter will eventually lead to classical conditioning of the desirable behavior and you will then have the dog you want.

Anything that does not follow this formula will not work. Your trouble will be to find the trainer that can teach you this as well as the dog. It is extremely unlikely anyone can teach you what you need to know for you to be able to teach the dog yourself over the internet. It would be hard enough for a trainer to teach you how to teach the dog while in person with you and the dog. It would also be hard enough to find the trainer that can take the dog train the dog the way it needs to be trained and then train you how to maintain the work that was done. That same trainer would be able to help you with your dogs reactivity issues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My impression is that he's yanking himself silly with that prong but he does not know how to make the lseash slack to make the prong correction stop so he is just yanking, yiping, and getting upset about it.

Make a hard right turn and when he turns to catch up, move your leash hand toward the dog to make the leash slack, praise, praise, treat it he will take it. As soon as the leash gets tight again, right turn (well away from the dog, assuming he is on your left) and try to show him there is a chance for a slack leash. No long straight lines, just keep constantly turning and praising slack leash and trying to show him the spot next to you where the leash is slack and he is not getting a prong correction. You probably can't achieve this off your property to start and that's fine--your garage, your driveway. And you have to practice not pulling on HIM either, because once you have walked a freight train dog long enough you get in the habit of having a death grip on the dog and even if he stops pulling you're still pulling and then he pulls again.

I agree you really should get a trainer to help you walk him properly, but there are some decent youtube videos out there showing how to teach a dog to yield to pressure on the prong collar. The dog has no idea how to stop the prong correction and he has no idea how to stop pulling. Someone has to show him.

I know this won't be popular but I honestly think you'd be better off walking him on a head halter than a prong collar at this point.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> Hey all, just wondering if anyone can give me some insight on why my guy pulls, whines, cries, barks and yips when on walks and how to correct it. He’s got a prong collar on and now is at least manageable on walks now (he used to pull and yank so hard I couldn’t even walk him, and my husbands hand would go numb within a few minutes). He doesn’t get as much walking time in as I’d like because of these behaviors and I would like to correct it so I can walk him on my own.
> 
> I’ve tried a “with me” command that works perfectly at home with treats, but as soon as he gets on the trail I could shove the most delicious treats in his mouth and he would literally turn his head at them. No matter what I do whatever drive he has that makes him act the way he does in the video attached is much much higher than his drive to earn treats or affection or play. I attatched a link to a YouTube video of his behavior. He does eventually calm down after about 15-20 minutes enough that he stops yipping but he never stops pulling. Sorry about me mouth breathing in the video I’m sick ?
> 
> ...


Did he make all these noises before you started using the prong collar? Or he was doing this same routine before the prong collar?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stoney Dennis is a successful dog trainer that is a huge advocate on physical management of dogs. He has many videos showing his methods and the results. I highly recommend him.

Any one of my dogs, if I have not been able to exercise them due to a lot of rain or other factors, will act as your dog does in the video until they get some pent up energy run off.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

OK, so i am the owner of a pet shepherd mix...he has no titles and doesn't do anything special...that is my full disclaimer!

Anyway when I see your video, I see a young beautiful energetic dog who is dying to run and sniff. He has a huge amount of pent-up energy which he is showing in his behavior (pulling, rearing up, whining). When I am on trails like that, I've got a 6 foot leash on my dog and I let him roam to the end of the leash and smell bushes, critter trails, etc. He knows his "Stay Close!" command, but I use it only for passing cars, people, bikes, and other dogs. So the "Close" (or casual Heel) position is in use for maybe 3-5 minutes at a time, then he is free to go sniff again. On days when he seems raring to go, I jog/run with him and I get exercise too. 

He knows that he is not allowed to pull hard on the leash. He may pause and sniff, or roam ahead or behind, but he has been taught that if he is attempting to drag me around, I stand still until he sees the error of his ways. He sometimes pulls for a running deer or rabbit...but other than that, the leash stays slack between us. ( On advice from our obedience teacher, I had also tried the "giving treats when he walks beside me" and it also did not work at all! Worked in house, but out in the real world he got in the habit of walking beside me for a few steps to get his treat, and taking off again! So I gave up on that method. )

I agree that your dog has just got a lot of pent-up energy...before you work on "stay close" training, you may need to run with him a bit, left him smell and explore, and then do "Stay close" for just a few minutes at a time, then let him go be "doggy" again...then repeat...

And again, my dog is only trained to "pleasant pet standard"...if you expect more, you can disregard all this!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

It takes my dogs a minute to calm if they've been cooped up and havent been able to get out. 
Combining exercise and training would help.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Just wondering if the situation quoted below from the noted web address might apply to your situation

https://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Prong-Collar-on-Dogs

"It is dangerous to use a prong collar as your primary walking collar. Dogs learn by association. If, in the long term, your dog learns to associate pain with pulling he'll also learn to associate negativity with events that cause him to pull. Most friendly dogs pull in response to seeing other people and animals. If a prong collar is used on every walk, your dog will learn to associate people and animals with pain. With time, he'll become timid and even aggressive in the presence of others and might even begin growling and biting."

I watched your video. As someone else mentioned, perhaps your dog is reacting to the collar and it isn't releasing properly. The audio sounds similar to a dog reacting to a correction from a prong collar, only instead of being a short reaction, it seems to keep on going.

My puppy is 5 months now. We were a bit later than most with getting out in public. She did a lot of barking for the first 2 weeks. Slowly, it has gotten better, but occasionally we backslide. For the most part I'm  encountering the following:

1. Started doing better with walking around the neighborhood: better heeling, will accept treats and/or praise. I still have an occasional barking situation, but she has improved a lot. 

2. Second week of obedience school was better than the first. She did very little barking, but wouldn't take any treats as rewards. She did overreact when a large Newfoundland dog stepped towards her and scared her. The dog was just being friendly and was at least 2 feet away when my dog started squealing. 

3. A walk in the park this week wasn't as good as recent neighborhood walks. Her heeling was off and she was pulling. A man, with a much smaller dog, attempted to let his dog say hello to mine, but my puppy got scared and started to cry. I realize we need more frequent walks in the park (versus neighborhood walks)

Work in progress. Sometimes, you think you have conquered things, only to regress. My puppy seems to be more comfortable walking in our neighborhood and so she heels better and does better with commands. She is still less behaved in the park, but we haven't walked as much there as we have in our neighborhood.

You might want to check and see if prong collar is sized properly (too loose or too tight?). Are you using the correct ring to attach the leash (use smaller "D" shape ring versus the larger round one)? Are you applying the correction properly? 

It can't hurt to validate some things about the prong collar and possibly make some adjustments on how you use it. I was given a prong collar for the obedience class we started. I mostly use praise and treats (praise only when she is too nervous to accept treats.) and then the prong collar sparingly.

I believe the trainer that was recommended is the same one that was recommended to me for a heeling exercise that you would do at home (basically walking in a square, while giving the heel command and praising with treats).

One method is to turn and walk in the other direction, when you dog gets ahead of you. Last week in class, the obedience instructor had me shorten up the leash and put my right hand at pocket level and the other end is close to your knees. It seemed to help rein her in more.

*Have you tried any particular strategy with the "heel command"? (other than using a prong collar?). You indicated your dog went to obedience school. What did they recommend?*


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Did he make all these noises before you started using the prong collar? Or he was doing this same routine before the prong collar?

He’s always made those noises on walks, he’s just manageable with the prong.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Just to be clear, he has ALWAYS acted like this on walks. We’ve tried 4 different harnesses including no pull leads. We’ve tried everything everyone has mentioned. The trainer just told me to give him super rewarding treats to keep him focused, but he doesn’t care about anything on walks. 

Also, to those of you saying he needs to be able to sniff his surroundings, this like the 50th+ time he’s been on this trail. It’s not really that new.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> Just to be clear, he has ALWAYS acted like this on walks. We’ve tried 4 different harnesses including no pull leads. We’ve tried everything everyone has mentioned. The trainer just told me to give him super rewarding treats to keep him focused, but he doesn’t care about anything on walks.
> 
> Also, to those of you saying he needs to be able to sniff his surroundings, this like the 50th+ time he’s been on this trail. It’s not really that new.


Kids are all excited to go out to play everyday in the same playground with the same other kids. Kids, and dogs, like to have fun.

You have a harness on this dog?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> Also, to those of you saying he needs to be able to sniff his surroundings, this like the 50th+ time he’s been on this trail. It’s not really that new.


It's not new to YOU.

It is new to him. They experience the world thru their noses and the smells are always different.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Sorry to hear you're going through this! Sounds and looks like my dog the 1st time leash training him at 8 weeks. He would bite, nip, whine, scream... Just unpretty. How old is your dog? For leash training (heel, no pull,) I like using a leather choke collar. I resorted to correct once or twice everytime he threw a tantrum. And then I just ignored him and continued walking. Because if I had been panicking WITH him, he would've been more anxious. So I literally just kept walking.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

McGloomy said:


> Sorry to hear you're going through this! Sounds and looks like my dog the 1st time leash training him at 8 weeks. He would bite, nip, whine, scream... Just unpretty. How old is your dog? For leash training (heel, no pull,) I like using a leather choke collar. I resorted to correct once or twice everytime he threw a tantrum. And then I just ignored him and continued walking. Because if I had been panicking WITH him, he would've been more anxious. So I literally just kept walking.



He turned 1 year on November 16th, so he’s still a pup. It’s like he doesn’t care about anything else. I literally stuffed a fresh venison treat (we make our own) in his mouth and he just turned his face. U


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> Hey all, just wondering if anyone can give me some insight on why my guy pulls, whines, cries, barks and yips when on walks and how to correct it. He’s got a prong collar on and now is at least manageable on walks now (he used to pull and yank so hard I couldn’t even walk him, and my husbands hand would go numb within a few minutes). He doesn’t get as much walking time in as I’d like because of these behaviors and I would like to correct it so I can walk him on my own.
> 
> I’ve tried a “with me” command that works perfectly at home with treats, but as soon as he gets on the trail I could shove the most delicious treats in his mouth and he would literally turn his head at them. No matter what I do whatever drive he has that makes him act the way he does in the video attached is much much higher than his drive to earn treats or affection or play. I attatched a link to a YouTube video of his behavior. He does eventually calm down after about 15-20 minutes enough that he stops yipping but he never stops pulling. Sorry about me mouth breathing in the video I’m sick ?
> 
> ...




So I guess my question is what do you want him to do on walks? And how often does he get out for a walk?

When I walk it's for the dog. So sniffing, goofing around and wandering is allowed provided there is no yanking. You mention that you have tried various harnesses and collars, but did you TEACH him what was expected?


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Along with what others have suggested and while saving/looking for a trainer,if you have more videos of your walks, check to see if there are more instances of when during his frantic antics he pauses, sits and looks up at you. This happens in the video at the 6-8second mark. 

This is a behavior I would want to capture and "mark". Not so much for sitting but the fact that he's looking up at and to you. In the video, it doesn't seem like you were aware of this or didn't realize the significants of it probably because it happened so fast but the fact that he did calm down enough to look up to you is big Imho. See if you can capture those moments and then immediately reward with allowing him a little head room to sniff. The more you capture the moments, the more he will associate that looking at you will get him more leash length to explore. 

I just thought I'd point out that for a brief moment, he was doing what you are looking for - his attention.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bailiff gave you the best advice that I have read on this thread. Read it carefully a couple times....all of it. It’s all about “ foundation and communication “ between you and dog and from both of your perspectives. From your posts, you have to learn how the dog is viewing things as well as he understanding you.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Couple of questions: if the dog is on a prong collar, why is he wearing a harness?
When I watch the video closely, it looks like the leash is somehow attached to both the prong collar AND the harness. This may be interfering with its effectiveness as it needs to sit high on the neck, just a few inches below the ears.

The sort of behaviour I'm seeing is something I most often see in dogs that have been walked in harnesses, which allow them to set the pace of the walk, meaning they pretty much are in control. The can jump up and spin around as they please, and the person walking them has very little control. If that's how this dog has been walked it is going to take you time to undo the damage, and teach him to walk nicely. 

It also looks like the prong may not be fitted correctly. I see an awful lot of loose something between the dog and the clip on the leash! Please review how to fit it correctly - there are videos out there!

I also agree that you need a pro trainer to help with this dog, someone who can teach YOU how to teach the dog.

Teaching a dog to walk nicely on a prong isn't rocket science. I've taken dogs that were chronic pullers, and had then walking on a loose leash within 15 minutes. But I've been working with GSDs for 30 years.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

“I also agree that you need....someone who can teach YOU how to teach the dog.”

Oh, yes, this is the first most important bit of advice to heed. When Beau hit adolescence he was like your dog, only louder, and he *never* stopped pulling. He pulled me right off my feet a couple of times on a no-pull harness. The thing that made the most difference for us was me recognizing that *I* was the problem, not him: I was simply not communicating what I wanted on walks in a way he could understand. Once I realized that, and sought help, walking got better fast. (BTW, a prong collar is a useful communication tool if fitted properly, and a little bit of restraint, not much. It helped me while I was getting a clue, but it was not the answer, only a small part of it.) 

Nothing in that video looks like communication about keeping a loose leash that your dog can understand. Absolutely get a trainer, try some techniques on this site, read some good training books. Direct your frustration at yourself when it rises, not at your dog. I think that shift in perspective for me was half the battle. Trial and error, practicing daily, and consistency were the rest. Beau is now easy for 85-90% of our walking, and the harder moments are more than manageable. 

I’m happy to pm you about what worked for us, but I’m no expert - lots of people on this site are, and you’re getting some good recommendations to try. Just know that if you start looking at the humans as causing/allowing the problem, and not the dog, you’ll get to where you want to be a lot faster.


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## JaxsMom (Dec 31, 2017)

I was wondering about the harness as well and how you have him clipped. A prong is meant to sit up high behind the ears and be snug enough to stay there. The prong leash then clips to the prong with the short line and a *flat collar* with the longer line as a backup in case the prong comes loose but so that it doesn't engage unless that happens. It seems from the video that he might be clipped to the ill fitting prong and a harness. This makes me feel like he might be getting a constant correction. I'd be freaking out too. You also need to learn to have a super gentle hand when walking on a prong. If he is getting constant corrections he is going to be so confused. If my boy starts getting to the end of the leash I will give him a warning before correcting.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you ever contact the trainer I recommended to you? This is not a puppy at 1 year old. This is a young adult.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> Couple of questions: if the dog is on a prong collar, why is he wearing a harness?
> When I watch the video closely, it looks like the leash is somehow attached to both the prong collar AND the harness. This may be interfering with its effectiveness as it needs to sit high on the neck, just a few inches below the ears.
> 
> The sort of behaviour I'm seeing is something I most often see in dogs that have been walked in harnesses, which allow them to set the pace of the walk, meaning they pretty much are in control. The can jump up and spin around as they please, and the person walking them has very little control. If that's how this dog has been walked it is going to take you time to undo the damage, and teach him to walk nicely.
> ...


The harness is a backup. It’s hard to explain how it’s clipped but I do know it’s not pulling at all on the harness, it’s just latched in a way if the prong collar were to break the harness would still keep him back in a situation where there might be another dog or a person. It’s more of a saftey net than anything. 

The prong collar does normally sit up right behind his ears and under his jaw pretty tightly. If I take anymore links off It feels like it’s too tight on him... when he acts like this and shakes it tends to fall downquite often. We were adjusting it every few minutes it was just bad timing with the video. Do you think it needs to be tighter? I felt uncomfortable taking anymore links off.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Did you ever contact the trainer I recommended to you? This is not a puppy at 1 year old. This is a young adult.


We are still hurting for the money, especially since he’s had to go to the vet a few times this month for an unrelated skin issue. Gonna take some time before we can build up our finances from the first 5-6 trainers we’ve tried. I will definitely contact them when we are more financially stable though.


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## WeNamedTheDogIndiana (Nov 18, 2018)

JaxsMom said:


> I was wondering about the harness as well and how you have him clipped. A prong is meant to sit up high behind the ears and be snug enough to stay there. The prong leash then clips to the prong with the short line and a *flat collar* with the longer line as a backup in case the prong comes loose but so that it doesn't engage unless that happens. It seems from the video that he might be clipped to the ill fitting prong and a harness. This makes me feel like he might be getting a constant correction. I'd be freaking out too. You also need to learn to have a super gentle hand when walking on a prong. If he is getting constant corrections he is going to be so confused. If my boy starts getting to the end of the leash I will give him a warning before correcting.


I’m worried about the prong being too tight if I remove any more links... and I would say yes he is getting constantly corrected because the crazy pup never stops pulling! But as I mentioned before he cries like this all the time on any collar/leash. We’ve tried all the conventional ways of training, “good boys” when the leash is slack, high reward treats, a with me command (which he follows in the home), stopping and not continuing when the leash is tight and waiting till it’s slack, you name a common leash walking technique and I can almost guarantee we’ve tried it. Like I mentioned before he does eventually calm down and stops crying, but he is just ALWAYS pulling. Do you think I should try taking another link out of his prong? Thank you for the help by the way everyone. This is my first experience with this breed and it’s been a learning curve. Smartest dog I’ve ever met in my life though... wouldn’t give him up for the world!


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## JaxsMom (Dec 31, 2017)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> I’m worried about the prong being too tight if I remove any more links... and I would say yes he is getting constantly corrected because the crazy pup never stops pulling! But as I mentioned before he cries like this all the time on any collar/leash. We’ve tried all the conventional ways of training, “good boys” when the leash is slack, high reward treats, a with me command (which he follows in the home), stopping and not continuing when the leash is tight and waiting till it’s slack, you name a common leash walking technique and I can almost guarantee we’ve tried it. Like I mentioned before he does eventually calm down and stops crying, but he is just ALWAYS pulling. Do you think I should try taking another link out of his prong? Thank you for the help by the way everyone. This is my first experience with this breed and it’s been a learning curve. Smartest dog I’ve ever met in my life though... wouldn’t give him up for the world!


I don't know what size link prong you got. I will say that mine is a 2.5mm. I feel like it makes sizing easier as each link is smaller and they also grab into the hair more and that helps it stay put. It's a more acute correction however so extra gentleness on the lead would be necessary. Also if my boy is extra goofy and excited I will take him out in the yard and throw his chuck it for 10 mins or so before taking him out for a walk so that some of his extra energy has been released beforehand. As others have said, on a trail like that I would let him be a dog. Bring a long line and let him explore a bit. If his only expectation of a walk is being held on a short leash the whole time with no chance to range a bit he will always be looking for more freedom.

If he doesn't respond to high value treats in this situation, would be respond to a tug toy? 

Hoping for the best for you guys!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The collar is not fitted properly and not being used properly. 
A member of this forum said to me that if I was going to train my dog to stop messing around and do it. Lose the harness. Get the collar fitted properly and get on with it. 
You need a trainer and you need to stop waffling about. 
The dog IS looking to you for direction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You need a medium which is a 3mm. I've watched a shepherd in drive rip the 2.25mm apart. The 3mm chrome plated herm sprenger is fine. 4mm is way to big.

Check the prong every once in awhile for tension when you put them together. I have a different collar prong wheere I take it apart so I know which one to check.


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## JaxsMom (Dec 31, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> You need a medium which is a 3mm. I've watched a shepherd in drive rip the 2.25mm apart. The 3mm chrome plated herm sprenger is fine. 4mm is way to big.
> 
> Check the prong every once in awhile for tension when you put them together. I have a different collar prong wheere I take it apart so I know which one to check.


Yeah, I got mine when he was about 9mos and maybe 60lbs. He is now 19mos and over 90lbs. So far the 2.5mm has worked fine for us but now you have me nervous lol. Maybe after I recover financially from the holidays I will look into the 3mm as well.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I remember seeing a dog that the owners had just rescued said they were looking for help. the dog would act like this just standing in a parking lot. It looked as though the dog was out of his mind and was not right. I hope you can help. A recommended trainer may offer a free evaluation it may be worth calling.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> I’m worried about the prong being too tight if I remove any more links... and I would say yes he is getting constantly corrected because the crazy pup never stops pulling! But as I mentioned before he cries like this all the time on any collar/leash. We’ve tried all the conventional ways of training, “good boys” when the leash is slack, high reward treats, a with me command (which he follows in the home), stopping and not continuing when the leash is tight and waiting till it’s slack, you name a common leash walking technique and I can almost guarantee we’ve tried it. Like I mentioned before he does eventually calm down and stops crying, but he is just ALWAYS pulling. Do you think I should try taking another link out of his prong? Thank you for the help by the way everyone. This is my first experience with this breed and it’s been a learning curve. Smartest dog I’ve ever met in my life though... wouldn’t give him up for the world!


What you're missing is clarity. Nothing is clear to him right now and he's overloaded with frustration. Trying techniques inconsistently doesn't help. You'll tend to blur things without realizing you've rewarded the wrong behavior and not punished what you should have. Now if you start depending on the collar for control, you probably won't get what you want either. 

Save up some money, the guy Jax recommended will fix this in 2 sessions with you.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's worth the money to work with a good trainer. Once you learn how to communicate with the dog, you'll be able to work through a lot of this on your own. But you need to be taught how to communicate. 

If I were to give a recommendation that didn't involved going to a trainer, it would be to take him to a safe fenced in area, like a ball field and play fetch with him for his exercise until you are ready to address this problem. Taking him on a walk, in this state, is not doing either of you any favors. 

This excitement isn't out of the ordinary in certain scenarios for many dogs, but I don't like to see it on a normal, everday, walk. The circling and anxiety makes me concerned there are some deeper issues going on with this dog, and they will only get worse if not taken care of now. 

I can't put it more articulately than Bailiff, but read his post on communication a few times and try to understand what he is saying. It is the basis of all dog training.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I would like to caution people from attempting to give advice over the forums for issues like this that don't involve "find X trainer that can help you with this issue in person."

I can fix the issue the OP has fairly easily. I've seen dogs just like that with fairly high frequency. I know not to attempt to fix this by explaining how I do it over the internet. That isn't even a money or a magicians never reveal their secrets thing. It is more to do with the limits of language and learning. 

It is hard enough to do the work with the dog in person for a month and then while in person with the client teach the client how to maintain what was done. It often takes 2-3 sessions with the client that last an hour to get the point across in a way where the client can finally do what I had in mind all along. Some get it right away. Many do not. Maybe the problem lies with me as a teacher of humans, and I need to work more on that part of it, but I seem to have better success on the human side of things than most of my colleagues so maybe its just the way things are.

I've seen lots of clients get DVDs and try to learn dog training systems like that. Some end up fairly close to what was intended under that system, but most have big gaps as a result of not being personally coached on the little things they start doing that are not correct or things they didn't realize that were important that really were. That is a DVD. Imagine how bad things get when you try to explain something by text. Now imagine how bad things are when you try to explain something by text when you don't really know the dog or the client or maybe even what you are doing.

It sucks that we can't help even when we really really want to sometimes.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> If I were to give a recommendation that didn't involved going to a trainer, it would be to take him to a safe fenced in area, like a ball field and play fetch with him for his exercise until you are ready to address this problem. Taking him on a walk, in this state, is not doing either of you any favors.
> 
> This excitement isn't out of the ordinary in certain scenarios for many dogs, but I don't like to see it on a normal, everday, walk. The circling and anxiety makes me concerned there are some deeper issues going on with this dog, and they will only get worse if not taken care of now.


This piece of advice is gold though. The more you let him practice this behavior the harder it will be to get rid of it. Find another way to exercise him.

One of the big issues of trying multiple equipment and methods ineffectively is you can create improper responses to those things that will make a professional trainers job harder, maybe in such a way that a trainer that would have been able to help you suddenly lacks the skill to because of something you ended up doing.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

WeNamedTheDogIndiana said:


> We are still hurting for the money, especially since he’s had to go to the vet a few times this month for an unrelated skin issue. Gonna take some time before we can build up our finances from the first 5-6 trainers we’ve tried. I will definitely contact them when we are more financially stable though.


With the trainer recommendation, your issues, and what Baillif just posted, maybe you could start with a phone call and a visit to that trainer.. Sometimes/often times good trainer's schedules are filled solid and getting you in may take a little time anyway so getting the ball rolling now could be to your advantage timewise/needing to save.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I am convinced having the harness on the dog is screwing up the prong. LOSE THE HARNESS!! The behaviour you dog is showing is TYPICAL of a dog that's trying to avoid correction with a harness!

For a buck or two, you can get a double clip - the sort that's on the end of a leash, but has a clip at both ends. Use this as your safety: attach it to one end to the prong and your leash and the other end to a backup flat collar. Yes, you can get specialty leashes with two clips on them but they are EXPENSIVE! 

Make sure the prong is fitted correctly. It should not be so loose that it falls down to the bottom of the neck. And I would correct my dog for jumping up on me.

As for letting the dog 'be a dog' and sniff around, you are trying to teach this dog to walk nicely on a leash, so you can both enjoy the walk. Therefore YOU should be the one controlling what is going on. I'd give him a few minutes sniff time at the beginning of the walk, but after that, I'd be all business. Or even better would be giving him a chance to relieve himself BEFORE the walk, and then maybe play a little ball with him to take the edge off his energy.

I do schutzhund with my dog, and one of the keys to getting a nice walk is to teach the dog to focus on you at all times. This is done at first in the house, with NO distractions. 'Haley look at me (or watch)' Dog obeys, say 'YES' and treat immediately. Then you move to an area with distractions at a distance, once the dog has this down 100%. Gradually increase the distractions, and correct the dog the SECOND its gaze starts to shift to the distraction, with a snap of the leash and a firm "LEAVE IT!". As you probably know, correction the dog once it's in full out lunging and barking mode does absolutely nothing, except maybe ramp things up a notch!

But like Baliff says, it's SO much easier to explain HOW to do this than to actually put it into practice. That's why you need a trainer!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I am convinced having the harness on the dog is screwing up the prong. LOSE THE HARNESS!! The behaviour you dog is showing is TYPICAL of a dog that's trying to avoid correction with a harness!
> 
> For a buck or two, you can get a double clip - the sort that's on the end of a leash, but has a clip at both ends. Use this as your safety: attach it to one end to the prong and your leash and the other end to a backup flat collar. Yes, you can get specialty leashes with two clips on them but they are EXPENSIVE!
> 
> ...


How do you correct with a harness? To me the behavior only looks typical of a dog in line for a jump at a dock diving competition.

If the prong isn't contributing, and owners say the dog acted like this pre-prong, then I agree the best thing is the exercise in fenced areas offleash and get to thst trainer ASAP.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Is that level of focus realistic for a daily leashwalk, Sunsilver?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

For competition, of course, my dog is 100% focused on me. For a daily leash walk, the dog is expected to 'check in' with me when say her name. I don't treat her as a robot, and I do allow her to stop and sniff now and then, but she is expected to keep the leash loose, and not pull. But the idea of the walk is for me and the dog to get exercise, so I am controlling the pace and what the dog is allowed to do. If she wants to sniff around and just be a dog, well, that's what the backyard is for!

The idea is - and I can't stress this enough! - I am the most important thing out there on our daily walk. Not the dog barking at us from behind the fence, not the kids yelling and screeching, not the traffic going by. And this is the bond a couple of people have talked about in this thread. 

I used to take my dogs to dog parks, but they would totally loose it as we were walking towards the park. This is one of the reasons dog parks are NOT a good idea. If that's part of its daily routine, it gets the idea that every time it's put on a leash, it is going to get to play with other dogs. And when it sees another dog, that's ALL it is thinking about, and training goes out the window. And you wonder why you have a reactive dog! :rolleyes2:

Edited to add: no-pull harnesses are supposed to correct the dog when it pulls. I believe harnesses are designed for pulling, and it's very difficult to control you dog when it's wearing one, because you have zero control of the dog's head.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Obviously everybody has their own idea of what walks are like. I definitely don't have my dogs focus on me while we are out for a walk. 90% of our walks are offleash anyway, and they are off doing whatever they want to do unless I call them back. 

They are happy and relaxed and enjoying their world. But I know I am lucky to live in a place where we can walk like that and not everybody can.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm fortunate that there are places nearby where I can have that sort of walk with my dogs, too. But in town, it has to be on leash, and they are expected to ignore other dogs and people.

Same thing with off leash walks: they MUST come to me as soon as we see people/dogs approaching. It wouldn't be safe otherwise, as there are often joggers and cyclists using the trails.

And if you have a dog like the one under discussion, here, which is not under control at all, it's much better to overdo the control at first, until the dog can be trusted to do what's been asked!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Obviously everybody has their own idea of what walks are like. I definitely don't have my dogs focus on me while we are out for a walk. 90% of our walks are offleash anyway, and they are off doing whatever they want to do unless I call them back.
> 
> They are happy and relaxed and enjoying their world. But I know I am lucky to live in a place where we can walk like that and not everybody can.


This! I think a lot of people don't realize how tiny yards and dog parks are in the city. Dogs are not allowed in most places and where they are permitted, the leash laws are usually strictly enforced. It is very much a challenge to find somewhere large enough to exercise a large dog off leash so that it may get its exercise.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> For competition, of course, my dog is 100% focused on me. For a daily leash walk, the dog is expected to 'check in' with me when say her name. I don't treat her as a robot, and I do allow her to stop and sniff now and then, but she is expected to keep the leash loose, and not pull. But the idea of the walk is for me and the dog to get exercise, so I am controlling the pace and what the dog is allowed to do. If she wants to sniff around and just be a dog, well, that's what the backyard is for!
> 
> The idea is - and I can't stress this enough! - I am the most important thing out there on our daily walk. Not the dog barking at us from behind the fence, not the kids yelling and screeching, not the traffic going by. And this is the bond a couple of people have talked about in this thread.
> 
> ...


There are many threads on this forum explaining the how's and why's of on leash walking being exercise for a human but not for a dog like a German Shepherd. I will repeat one example of this. When my mother was elderly, she still wanted to go for walks. I would take her for a walk and slowly shuffle along side her until she was done. I would then take her home or back to the car and then I would go for a walk _at my pace_ so that I could get some exercise too. 

I know of one popular military dog trainer that states although dogs like these need a job / mental stimulation, that the same effect can also be achieved simply with a good off leash hike. My dogs have proven that to be true and use their noses non stop.

I do take some of my dogs to dog parks and my dogs do not get over excited when approaching a dog park, neither do they view the sight of another dog as an opportunity for playtime. They view other dogs as "Ho, hum, pizza again?"


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I'm fortunate that there are places nearby where I can have that sort of walk with my dogs, too. But in town, it has to be on leash, and they are expected to ignore other dogs and people.
> 
> Same thing with off leash walks: they MUST come to me as soon as we see people/dogs approaching. It wouldn't be safe otherwise, as there are often joggers and cyclists using the trails.
> 
> And if you have a dog like the one under discussion, here, which is not under control at all, it's much better to overdo the control at first, until the dog can be trusted to do what's been asked!


I mean, if this dog had been being walked like that he might never have gotten this neurotic. Which is not a criticism of the owners, who I am sure are doing the best they can. And who knows, it might be a partly genetic thing that would have happened no matter where/how the dog lived.

I agree there is definitely a time and a place for a structured walk. I believe kind of passionately that the way my dogs live is the way dogs should live but that doesn't help anybody but me because I know the majority of people don't have access to privately owned land on which to run their dogs without worrying about other people's unruly dogs or whatever else. 

I kind of feel like I've never struggled to teach my dogs a structured walk, or spent time or energy on it, because they aren't pent up, they have pretty good obedience, and when they need to be on a leash I just tell them what to do with my voice and it tends to work. Maybe because my dogs are offleash so much, I don't rely on the leash to get them to do what I need them to do. 

I've lived in apartments and I've lived in cities with dogs and I still had access to walk offleash although then I did have to share trails.

I don't 100% agree that "a tired dog is a good dog" is a myth. I do think being constantly pent up and unable to just freely move does make dogs different, and the opposite is also totally true...dogs who are not pent up and can freely move, zoom when they feel like zooming, dogs who use their brains constructively and in cooperation with their people from early on ... they are different.

Not that it helps people who just don't have access to that, still. But it's how me and mine want to live and why I chose to come live where I do.

And lastly, once they get past a certain point...just exercising them is not enough, because the mindset is screwey and a good run won't fix it then


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I mean, if this dog had been being walked like that he might never have gotten this neurotic. Which is not a criticism of the owners, who I am sure are doing the best they can. And who knows, it might be a partly genetic thing that would have happened no matter where/how the dog lived.
> 
> I agree there is definitely a time and a place for a structured walk. I believe kind of passionately that the way my dogs live is the way dogs should live but that doesn't help anybody but me because I know the majority of people don't have access to privately owned land on which to run their dogs without worrying about other people's unruly dogs or whatever else.
> 
> ...


Well said! It is not necessarily about the dog being tired but about providing physical outlets for a dog's physical drives. There is a big difference. A dog will not derive the same benefit from running on a treadmill while staring at a wall vs one running through the woods following his nose.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well said! It is not necessarily about the dog being tired but about providing physical outlets for a dog's physical drives. There is a big difference. A dog will not derive the same benefit from running on a treadmill while staring at a wall vs one running through the woods following his nose.


Well and also, my dogs aren't just running amok. I take them and we go do this together. They may often run ahead of me but when we reach a fork in the trail they wait to see which way I take them. It is a group thing we do together. It's part of our day. Another part of our day is training...so that's an outlet too. Sometimes a little combined but the walk is really just for them to move.

Anyway. It's a really unnatural world a lot of dogs live in. They don't perform a useful daily job for their people a lot of the time, and they can't move the way they would naturally move. And nothing I'm saying now is any help....just pondering.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Thecowboysgirl I think you're being helpful.Understanding what our dogs feel and how they see the world and then enjoying simple pleasures alongside each other is key.We learn each other's rhythms and language and ways to communicate.


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