# Focused Heeling Questions



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

I know my pup is young, turns 5 months on Nov 4, 20 weeks this Thursday. We started training focused heeling last Monday. 

Background:
Prior to four months treated in heel position a lot, walked next to him with lure above his head to get him used to looking up.

Last week, worked some targeting with elevated platform and used spatial pressure on platform to get him used to swinging his rear around while maintaining his platform.

Following this, working on moving and stopping with him on my left heel moving on the wall and around corners. 

Formal session: 6-8 times per day @ about 5 min a piece. Sometimes shorter sometimes longer depending on his mood. Training heeling

Play sessions: 6-8 times per day @ about 5 min a piece. Working Sit/Down/Leave it/Watch me

Question:

At this rate, how long does it typically take to train a dog to heel properly? I understand that this is a very advanced command for this little guy, but my original goal was to have him heeling by 6 months of age. Is this unreasonable or feasible?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That is a very intensive training program for such a young dog. I would take it down a couple of notches to prevent burn out on his part and frustration on yours.
What do you do for play? I hope not sit-down-watch me- leave it (what you mentioned) as that doesn't sound like play to me. Can he freely romp around, play with safe dogs, toys, tug etc?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It depends on the dog and the trainer. All the training in the world doesn't do any good if it's not good training or has missing pieces. Why don't you stop pushing so hard and enjoy your pup a little? That is a lot of training for any dog.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Focused heeling takes a long time.. And it's best to make sure you have the foundation correct right from the beginning.. So it's best to take it slow..


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Wolfy and Jax said^^^ Playing and having fun makes for a strong bond and a willing pupil


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think your pup will burn out if you continue doing this much this often. Slow down and let your pup be a puppy.


----------



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

Haha, sorry, I know it sounds like I am a training Nazi. But my situation is a little different than most peoples. He is with me all day and he absolutely loves training. If he isn't into the session, I end it on a positive note. 

Play is his tug on the end of a flirt pole. He absolutely loves it. The only time we play is when he sits or goes down. He has those commands down nearly perfectly. He also has been outing his tug on command since he was 3 months old.

All I have to say is "You ready" and he is in drive ready to get his tug. Every time I put him in a new environment, I immediately put him in drive and let him play tug. At only 4 1/2 months, when we get out of the jeep, he is immediately looking to me for direction. 

I am with him for 24 hours per day, training for 20-40 minutes a day, it is not that intense. He is currently with me at my desk at work laying next to me. 

We play fetch, he retrieves already. He goes for morning runs with me and goes to my gym with me. We go for walks off leash and on leash multiple times per day.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Achilles0557 said:


> Question:
> 
> At this rate, how long does it typically take to train a dog to heel properly? I understand that this is a very advanced command for this little guy, but my original goal was to have him heeling by 6 months of age. Is this unreasonable or feasible?


OK, I'll answer your question straight to the point: I think it is unreasonable and unfair to the pup, no matter your situation.


----------



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

What do you guys mean let your pup be a puppy? 

We play, wrestle, cuddle, he chases the other dog around all the time. He does this for hours each day.

Keep in mind, a puppy class is typically 60 minutes. I train my dog for no more than 40 minutes per day. Typically, we are right around 30 minutes per day. 

So if you enroll your dog in an hour long puppy class, you are training your dog longer than I train mine. 

If anyone has an answer to how long it took their dog to heel, that is all I am looking for. 

Thank you all for your concern over my puppy's well being. I do let him get plenty of puppy time. I promise.


----------



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> OK, I'll answer your question straight to the point: I think it is unreasonable and unfair to the pup, no matter your situation.


 What did you do Wolfy? How did you get your dog to focus heel? What age did you start training your dog and how long did it take you?


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Maybe this video can answer some of your questions:

https://vimeo.com/141439425

I didn't start to teach my dog a formal heel until he was about 9 months old. No real reason for waiting other than I have never trained one before and decided to try IPO at that time. It did not take long for him to learn, but there is a big difference between a 9 month old and a 5 month old puppy. Good luck.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Achilles0557 said:


> What did you do Wolfy? How did you get your dog to focus heel? What age did you start training your dog and how long did it take you?


I don't do focus heel as I am not interested in competition obedience. For me it is fine when she just heels nicely.
I integrate training in daily life and in play. She is also mostly with me 24/7. I don't do specific training "sessions". I find it a relaxed way of getting her where I want her to be.
I think starting at a later age will give you faster results as he will be more focused so an ant, crossing his path, won't be a reason to get all exited. In the mean time have fun with your pup to bond and working on impulse control in a fun way.
Puppy hood lasts for only a short time. You can work on official obedience for his entire life.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Achilles0557 said:


> What did you do Wolfy? How did you get your dog to focus heel? What age did you start training your dog and how long did it take you?





osito23 said:


> Maybe this video can answer some of your questions:
> 
> https://vimeo.com/141439425
> 
> I didn't start to teach my dog a formal heel until he was about 9 months old. No real reason for waiting other than I have never trained one before and decided to try IPO at that time. It did not take long for him to learn, but there is a big difference between a 9 month old and a 5 month old puppy. Good luck.


You should watch this. Dave just competed at the WUSV in Finland.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You run with him? How much? Better to wait until he is about 18 months or so and his growth plates have closed - forced running on hard surfaces can damage his development. The recommendation is to let the pup run on soft ground, and let them go at their own pace, and let them stop when they are tired. Usually a hike on some trails, or letting them play with other pups serves the purpose well to exercise them, and allow them to moderate themselves as to how much exercise is enough.


----------



## Jackal (Sep 13, 2015)

For IPO heeling. It starts at day 1.
But if you can imagine multiple building blocks to teach that behaviour. Focus is the first block in learning the IPO heel. So your 'look at me' stuff is excellent.

I have been told, a pup can focus up to 5 mins, for every month its been alive. Depending on mood of dog, stimulus in environment, distraction, and how i am on the day. Some days, im a crap trainer. So play instead. 


From another perspective. Pups start at my IPO club at 10 weeks. And i can tell you those that have been coming for 8 weeks, have it nailed, for very brief periods, like 10 paces, before they break into something else. Every 10 of those paces, were taught one step at a time. And its very hard work for the pups. Tires them out. But after 8 weeks of food based training, they are starved pre training, crated and confined pre training. So when you get your little land shark out, its gagging for a bite of that lovely treat in your pocket. 

Between each exercise trained for about 5 mins. There is a lot of being crated to absorb the lesson just learnt. I have never done this before, and i am simply amazed at how crucial this component of resting the dog mid training session is. 

I have a 8yr old GSD, who i did way too much of, or rather, i allowed way to much running about like a loon. We have a luxiating patella now as a result. Expensive mistake to make. Feel free to learn from my mistake.


----------



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> You run with him? How much? Better to wait until he is about 18 months or so and his growth plates have closed - forced running on hard surfaces can damage his development. The recommendation is to let the pup run on soft ground, and let them go at their own pace, and let them stop when they are tired. Usually a hike on some trails, or letting them play with other pups serves the purpose well to exercise them, and allow them to moderate themselves as to how much exercise is enough.


Yeah, we just started jogging for a mile, either on the beach or the desert trails. Hiking is more our thing though. Thanks for the advice.

Thanks for the video, it was a big help.


----------



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

[
I have a 8yr old GSD, who i did way too much of, or rather, i allowed way to much running about like a loon. We have a luxiating patella now as a result. Expensive mistake to make. Feel free to learn from my mistake.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply, very helpful. I understand, just a step at a time, and expect work to take a lot of patience and over the course of the next few months. That is what I was expecting.

What did you mean by your above quote? Are you saying you trained your puppy too much or you just let run around and didn't work on focus drills? 

Thanks, I appreciate everything.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

With a young puppy, I do maybe two-three sessions a day not even 5 minutes long. I work on simple things like Sit and Leave It or Drop It. For heeling, I work on loose leash walking until that is perfect, then focused and refining. If a young dog loves it and is learning, there is nothing wrong with amping it up a little, but if he's not getting it, fall back and do less. Spend time working on manners, too.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jackal, why do you starve your dogs before working with them? That seems cruel to a puppy.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jackal, why do you starve your dogs before working with them? That seems cruel to a puppy.


I am pretty he just means the puppy is not given breakfast before training, so they are hungry and more likely to work for the treats given. Starve is probably not the right word.


----------



## Jackal (Sep 13, 2015)

Starve = with hold meal before training, and use the meal as food reward during training. 

I have a 8yrs old GSD, who couldnt give a rats arse about food frankly, "starving hungry" is the ONLY way he's interested in food to train with. 

No pup cruelty happening here


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Achilles, I started focused heel position just today to see how it would work because of this thread: instant success. She is two years old and it was a matter of minutes, something a young pup needs days or weeks for, given that there are no distractions around him (good luck with that  ). She was already good in sitting next to me in the heel position for other activities. I had a tug toy under my arm that she didn't see (smell, maybe?). I waited for her to offer "the look at me" (no command) and as soon as she looked at me, I threw the toy and played with her. Next time I waited a little longer for her to look at me, maybe 1.5 second. I may have worked with her for another 5 times and called it quits. She was super riled up and as a result I might start looking more into this, thanks to that the video. I actually loved doing this.
Later I tried it in a park where there was a cross country meet and boy, she pulled of that focus again. I have always taken my time in raising pups and it does pay off big time.


----------



## Achilles0557 (Jul 24, 2015)

Thanks for everyone that offered help.

JAKAL, I understood what you meant by starve. 

Wolfy, awesome job on getting focused heeling, I am going off of some of Michael Ellis's advice and starting formal heeling at 4 mos. with all do respect, I don't think I need to wait two years for competitive training when so many successful trainers around the world are working with their dogs like this. 

All training sessions aren't "just heeling". They still involve all the basic commands. Barking is starting to become an issue, so I think I need to teach him to speak on command now. 

Fun times!!!


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I am pretty he just means the puppy is not given breakfast before training, so they are hungry and more likely to work for the treats given. Starve is probably not the right word.


I took it literally.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Here's a young dog in our club.. Doing what I call focused heeling.. Granted this pup has natural focus, a strong work ethic and drive out the wazoo.. But he started this pups foundation at a young age.. I think the first picture he is around 3 - 3-1/2 months and the second pic he is 7 - 8 months. This pup also gets to do a lot of fun things other than training!

So no you do not need to wait until the dog is two.. But you do need to go slow.. and have good guidance!


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I just happen to start at 2 years, not because I didn't think she wasn't ready before that but because I wasn't interested in FH before. But because she was already kinda mature, it didn't take much to get her started.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - The bottom line is focused heeling takes months. It's position, position, position, duration, duration, duration. 

What I would like to mention, from my own experience, is that dogs need downtime to process information. If we have a hard training session where I've had to use corrections (he is very handler sensitive) or where he's learned something new and FINALLY got it. We do not train the next day. He has come back stronger EVERY time I've done that.

Let your dog have the downtime to process the info.


----------

