# Advice for BH



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Hey all,

So I am planning on going for the BH with my boy Nix in Dec. it has been YEARS since I have done this. So I am already nervous!! My last BH was with my first GSD, and we forgot half the pattern. Passed anyway!!

So just wondering if there were things you wished you had trained better? Parts of the traffic portion you wish you would have worked on? Hints? Suggestions? 

My boys obedience is fine, we won't win anything, but it's passable. He gets tired and bored after 15 minutes, and his attention wanes. He does not break position, but it's not as pretty. He is not the highest drive dog, ball drive that is. But when he is ON, he is amazing. 

I plan on introducing the ecollar this week, and then using it to proof the long down. He starts sniffing grass, then stretches to sniff, then gets up to sniff, yada yada. So I need to be able to proof this before the trial. 

Also, he comes in fast for the recall, but always sits crooked. So I am going to be focusing on that as well. 

Anyway, just looking for pointers from those that have done this a lot, or not a lot. But realize there are things they overlooked. 

Thanks!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have him come into a 'chute' for the recall, so he can only come in straight. We use plastic stakes for this. I would not make too much conflict(corrections) in the down, it should be a good place. Praise him when he's doing it well, and reward often. 
To keep him in a higher state of drive, reward him in key places during the pattern...so he anticipates that reward, when it doesn't come during the actual trial, he should go higher because it may come the next time. 
My TD suggested to me to stalk the dog when I'm returning to him after the down, tease him up a bit, but then stop...move forward and slowly approach. Let him explode out of the down once you have released him(this is in case you are doing the down first, brings up the drive to do the routine) But that can backfire, so the dog really needs to be proofed on keeping the down until you are in heel position. My dog is not a happy happy joy joy heeler either, so I need to do what I can to keep his drive level up during obedience.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Don't stress the small stuff. Smile, have fun. 

If you are going to work on fronts don't do them as part of the recall. You don't want to mess up your recall in the process. 

What I did with Donovan when he thought he should sniff is I had a long line on his pinch and when he started to sniff or think about sniffing the long line tightened. If he moved he was put back into position and we started over. I also did this for his getting a bit whiny when the other dog did the retrieve. Whining and/or sniffing are not part of the down. I have used the E a bit with Deja, nick, if I notice her neck getting a bit long during the recalls and/or retrieves or if she starts air scenting something in the bushes along side my field. She is very solid in the down, though, so this was brought in later mostly as a reminder to keep her attention on me in the blind and not other things. I have never used it to make the down solid. I prefer what I did with Donovan for that. 

There really isn't any way to prepare for the traffic portion since the judges tend to vary what they do. Just make sure he is comfortable around other dogs, traffic, joggers and bicycles. Also, if he is chipped, make sure he will stand and allow someone else to scan him (sometimes the handler does it, but not always). If he has a tattoo, make sure he is comfortable with you showing it. Walk him around in a crowd. Make sure he will stay quietly tied out with you out of site. These are the things I see most commonly in BH. 

I have done 7 BH. I hate them because IMO they are a waste of my time, but they are required. As long as your dog is fairly obedient and doesn't do anything majorly stupid you will be fine. In the ones I have done, Elena had down on the brain, Donovan forgot his front all together and thought he should do a send out on the build up for the down in motion, Deja did a gorgeous stand in motion instead of a sit, Vala about took me off of my feet on the recall, I fell between the fast and slow on both Nike's and Treue's heeling patterns and when I did Tara's I held my hand up in front of my stomach like we did in AKC and the judge asked if the dog thought I was hiding food.  I have seen handlers turn into strange zombie creatures that their dogs don't recognize and they still manage to pass. You will be fine. 

Who is the judge?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

BTW, I don't train for the BH. I train for the 3. The BH is just an obstacle along the way.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lisa, yes. I train for higher levels, but the BH is waaaay longer than every other level in regards to obedience!! 

Nix has a great down stay. One if his most solid things. He just redirects any anxiety into sniffing. It's not all the time, but I guarantee my stress is going to travel down the leash. 

His other issue is other dogs. He gets Fanny stupid sometimes. So the " meet the judge" is going to be fun. He settles eventually. LOL. 

Lots to work on. Going to keep it fun. If we don't pass, so be it. He is always under control. It's just not always picture perfect. Again, no designs on podium here!!

The traffic stuff, just need to expose him to. People crowding around, bikes, joggers. He is ok on walks, but hyped up during a trial with me about to piddle my pants, yeah. Who knows.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

One thing I have done with both Gryff and Keeta is to proof the long down in pouring rain. 
With Keeta, I was home one day and we had a downpour. I ran outside with her and put her in a down while I sat in a lawn chair holding a golf umbrella and reading a magazine. Glad I'm rural and neighbours can't see my place at all, because they really would have thought I've lost my mind. Keeta did try to get up and move a couple of times (the expression on her face having to just lay there in the pounding rain!), but I reminded her to stay. 

It really paid off - we had very unsettled weather for her OB1 and it was hailing for her sit out of motion, and part of her long down, but she held position - looked thoroughly miserable being pelted by hail - but she was solid.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I failed to buy & wear the t shirt that says: My Dog Never Did That Before.

My good Kong nut WL male suddenly decided off leash heeling was an excellent time to leave the field & go visit one of our friends. I kid you not.

My bad. He wasn't as ready as I thought. I believed he was rock solid off lead but had never proofed him with people to whom he was very attached in the audience. Epic. fail.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

zetti said:


> I failed to buy & wear the t shirt that says: My Dog Never Did That Before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL- yeah. That would happen to me.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If the sniffing during the long down is related to any stress or anxiety I would not use the E collar. Build the confidence in the long down so that even with your nerves on trial day he will know his job. I would just work using positive reinforcement (praise or going back with a treat and then leaving again) for staying while slowly building up the amount of distractions. Stay close and have a long line on him so if he does break or make a mistake he doesn't bother another dog and you can easily put him back where he should be. I, for the most part, don't use a lot of corrections for the down in a young dog. Those come later when I know the dog is solid and most of the time they have not been needed.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> So I am planning on going for the BH with my boy Nix in Dec. it has been YEARS since I have done this. So I am already nervous!! My last BH was with my first GSD, and we forgot half the pattern. Passed anyway!!
> 
> So just wondering if there were things you wished you had trained better? Parts of the traffic portion you wish you would have worked on? Hints? Suggestions?


 We have until the end of November to get everything solid! Plus, after todays training we know what we have to really work on..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Who is the judge?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Whatever you do, don't let HeidiBear on the field while you are doing the long down....her energy and excitement will be a huge test for your dog to maintain the down  
OR maybe she should make the rounds to clubs and be the proof dog, lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

After my first BH, I wished I'd actually trained longer heeling, especially in the heat. I always heard avoid doing the full pattern so I didn't do tons of long heeling sessions, but in a BH you're doing it twice. It was really hot and humid for our BH. We passed but *all* of the dogs were pretty flat. However in December I hope that won't be a concern. It really depends on the dog though, my next dog was always more "on" and had a lower threshold, so he could do nice heelwork a lot longer even without the practice. His BH looked a lot nicer even though he had less preparation (maybe it was also because I was not nervous). One thing that helped me there was one of my TDs telling me I should always walk straight forward with my head and shoulders up and my chest out and just march out there like I KNOW my dog is right there with me. When I worry, I tend to glance down and back at my dog, start hunching my shoulders, shorten my stride....all of this goes down the leash to the dog or physically cues the dog to start lagging. If I convince myself to march down the field, my dogs' strides are more open so the heeling looks nicer and it helps keep their drive up.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

lhczth said:


> If the sniffing during the long down is related to any stress or anxiety I would not use the E collar. Build the confidence in the long down so that even with your nerves on trial day he will know his job. I would just work using positive reinforcement (praise or going back with a treat and then leaving again) for staying while slowly building up the amount of distractions. Stay close and have a long line on him so if he does break or make a mistake he doesn't bother another dog and you can easily put him back where he should be. I, for the most part, don't use a lot of corrections for the down in a young dog. Those come later when I know the dog is solid and most of the time they have not been needed.



Thanks. Good advice. After today I do believe it is stress related. So have a good plan in place to work on it. 

Today's training really highlighted some of the issues that need work. So while a bit of a frustrating day, left with a great plan in place and plenty of time to correct what I need to. 

I don't know who the judge is yet. 

And yup Lies, longer heeling is a must. My boy already is not super animated, so I need to build his endurance and focus.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

The Judge for Alexandria's trial is William Szentmiklosi.. nice guy.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies suggestions are good. Watch how YOU move when heeling especially in a trial. People love to be paired with me since the adrenaline tends to increase my speed and animation (most people slow down and hunch worrying about their dogs like Lies mentions) and I zip through the pattern quickly. I learned with my very first OB dog to move forward and not think about my dog. Of course with some dogs this amount of adrenaline and energy in the handler can be counter productive and can make them a bit too high, but with a dog that isn't naturally animated this can help a lot (as suggested to Jane yesterday). Use your nerves for the benefit of the dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I did my first two BH under Bill.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

lhczth said:


> I did my first two BH under Bill.


I did my first (Oh wait, and only) SchH 1 under him.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> If the sniffing during the long down is related to any stress or anxiety I would not use the E collar. Build the confidence in the long down so that even with your nerves on trial day he will know his job. I would just work using positive reinforcement (praise or going back with a treat and then leaving again) for staying while slowly building up the amount of distractions. Stay close and have a long line on him so if he does break or make a mistake he doesn't bother another dog and you can easily put him back where he should be. I, for the most part, don't use a lot of corrections for the down in a young dog.


 This is really good advice...so many people want to introduce an e-collar. Really, not so many dogs should need one nor do they benefit from them.

I think the biggest problem with the long down is that people don't work on it. What I usually see when I go to clubs is dogs put on the long down, handler walks over to spectators and starts talking. Then someone shouts, " hey your dog is up" and they run over and correct the dog. When dogs are allowed to break the down, they learn to break the down. I stay closer watching my dog...then go back and praise or give food just like what Lisa is saying....then gradually move further away but I am never distracted nor do I give any indication that I am wanting to chat with someone when I am training this. Might want to go to different fields and do the same things making it a bit easier at first , (meaning going back more often to praise), and then work away from the dog.
Also, Bill S. actually watches your dog on the long down and critiques it. At least he was doing that a couple of years ago when I put a BH on one of my dogs under him. He really understands things about dogs when he judges and is interesting, and for me fun, to listen to as he critiques each dog. Good judge.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Vandal gave some good advice - a few years ago we had a world-level competitor come for a seminar, and told us that if our dog breaks a long-down to RUN and correct them. Being newbies and having stars in our eyes from this person's Sch Status we all started correcting our dogs for breaking the long down with enthusiasm. Well, BIG MISTAKE!! Now everytime we so much as walked UP to our dogs, they started showing signs of stress, yawning, looking away, etc. Really bummed me out, I wanted my dog to be happy to see me approach, not think that something bad was going to happen. 

Better to work on it the way Anne describes - watch your dog, and reinforce the down instead of correcting after the fact. 

Another hint: if you expect your dog to hold a long down for 10 to 15 minutes for trial, then train for a solid long down of 20 - 30 minutes - if you are confident that your dog will hold his down for that period of time, then you can be confident that he'll hold it for the time required during the trial. (even if it hails).


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

So what if you're 10 feet away and the dog breaks it. What do you do then? Just go up and make them down again but don't correct?
Also, my dog likes to lay down after a few moments. Like lay down on his side. What should I do about that?

And yeah, in dog training nothing is intuitive. Someone says something and it makes all the sense in the world until someone else explains why that's a bad idea and then it also makes sense lol

But it's fun)))))


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Awesome!! Thanks everyone. I have drafted people at work and through my training club for help with his two biggest issues. 

I will stay closer to him and reward, and I am going to do long downs without distractions a lot as well.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

One more thing to add - not sure if it's club specific but I see a lot of people whose dogs are perfectly stable in the long down when the action is far away but in the event that the long down is setup such that the dog is laying close to the jump I've seen many dogs break the down to grab that dumbbell when it is thrown (at least they get a little... edgy when they see it, especially when they were taught with force retrieve OR when the handler put a ton of drive into the dumbbell). It's the one specific scenario we work on, otherwise its long down work as usual and you've gotten a ton of great advice on that part 

P.S. Might not be pertinent if you pair with another BH, but sometimes you pair with someone doing their 1-3


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are two components of a long down. Time and distance. They should be taught separately with time usually being the first thing to teach. If my dog breaks, I will tell them "no" (not bellow it or scream it, though I have done that in the past) and then put them back into position. I try not to allow them to break by rewarding before it happens and not increasing time/distance more quickly than the dog is ready. I am not perfect and I don't always make the right call. 

Flopping onto his side is not a down (and neither is sniffing, barking or crawling). I would either reward before this happens to reinforce the correct position (preferable) or I would just go back, tell him "no" and put him into the correct position (either with a lure or you may have to break him from the bad down and ask for the down again).


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

lalachka said:


> So what if you're 10 feet away and the dog breaks it. What do you do then? Just go up and make them down again but don't correct?
> Also, my dog likes to lay down after a few moments. Like lay down on his side. What should I do about that?
> 
> And yeah, in dog training nothing is intuitive. Someone says something and it makes all the sense in the world until someone else explains why that's a bad idea and then it also makes sense lol
> ...


I stand with the back to the dog, as I would in the trial, but I keep a mirror so I can see the dog. At least in our dogs they don't just up and break a down, they get edgy first, sniffing around, stretching their neck out and then slowly get up to the scent. OR they start getting edgy, and restless, watching the other dog, and start getting whiny, restless, shifting back and forth, etc. before they finally break the down. You want to catch them early, catch the signs and reinforce the down then and there.

There are signs to check. If your dog just ups and breaks a down without any indication you need to go back to fundamentals and should not be 10 feet away to begin with.

If he has a solid down, pay attention to the signs, be ready to react (in whatever way that is) and reinforce the down. If the dog is up, you already missed the timing.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Technically you should never pair a BH with an IPO dog just like you shouldn't pair a 3 with a 1 or 2. That is asking the dog to do more than its level requires. There is also no gunfire in the BH and pairing with an IPO dog would allow involve the gunfire. This is to be fair to all dogs and not just because the dog shouldn't be able to deal with it. 

Yes, when working on the long down with my dogs I also condition them to working during the retrieves and even the send out.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> So what if you're 10 feet away and the dog breaks it. What do you do then? Just go up and make them down again but don't correct?
> Also, my dog likes to lay down after a few moments. Like lay down on his side. What should I do about that?


 If your dog lays on his side, he doesn't know what down means....that's "play dead". Go back and teach the down correctly. Once you do that, go on to teaching the long down. If the dog breaks, you were not watching closely enough. Most dogs give several indications that they are thinking about getting up. If you see that, you can repeat the down command to get him to settle but if you are having issues at 10 feet, shorten the distance until he is solid, then move on. It's about learning to read your dog and about paying attention.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gsdsar, I'm sorry for butting in. I saw something I have a problem with. 




lhczth said:


> There are two components of a long down. Time and distance. They should be taught separately with time usually being the first thing to teach. If my dog breaks, I will tell them "no" (not bellow it or scream it, though I have done that in the past) and then put them back into position. I try not to allow them to break by rewarding before it happens and not increasing time/distance more quickly than the dog is ready. I am not perfect and I don't always make the right call.
> 
> Flopping onto his side is not a down (and neither is sniffing, barking or crawling). I would either reward before this happens to reinforce the correct position (preferable) or I would just go back, tell him "no" and put him into the correct position (either with a lure or you may have to break him from the bad down and ask for the down again).



He doesn't do it after the command. He downs fine but then after I walk around him (trainer has me do that) he flops 
But i see what your saying. I will try catching it before he does it. It didn't occur to me)))))

And thank you for the timing coming before the distance. 






ayoitzrimz said:


> I stand with the back to the dog, as I would in the trial, but I keep a mirror so I can see the dog. At least in our dogs they don't just up and break a down, they get edgy first, sniffing around, stretching their neck out and then slowly get up to the scent. OR they start getting edgy, and restless, watching the other dog, and start getting whiny, restless, shifting back and forth, etc. before they finally break the down. You want to catch them early, catch the signs and reinforce the down then and there.
> 
> There are signs to check. If your dog just ups and breaks a down without any indication you need to go back to fundamentals and should not be 10 feet away to begin with.
> 
> If he has a solid down, pay attention to the signs, be ready to react (in whatever way that is) and reinforce the down. If the dog is up, you already missed the timing.


Yep, I'm moving too fast and though I haven't watched I'm sure you're right and he gives plenty of signs. Will try tonight. 








Vandal said:


> If your dog lays on his side, he doesn't know what down means....that's "play dead". Go back and teach the down correctly. Once you do that, go on to teaching the long down. If the dog breaks, you were not watching closely enough. Most dogs give several indications that they are thinking about getting up. If you see that, you can repeat the down command to get him to settle but if you are having issues at 10 feet, shorten the distance until he is solid, then move on. It's about learning to read your dog and about paying attention.


Thank you, i will try watching him closely and catch it before. And i will stay closer. 
Can't wait to try it the new way)))


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You don't let him flop - you are moving way too fast. You stay close enough and watch him for a sign that he will flop, and you get his attention and re-inforce the down command, and you reward him and praise him for NOT flopping. If he flops after one minute, shorten the time he has to stay in a down and reward. You very slowly increase the time. When you see him wanting to flop, just a "uh-uh!" may be enough to let him know to NOT flop, to keep position. Be close by to praise and reward. 

Another tip, Sam, is to bring your dog to different spots on the field and surround with different items for the long down - we had a judge who designated the long down area on the opposite side of the field where we usually put our dogs for a long down, and identified the spot with a marker flag - the kind that we used to mark the start of our tracks. 

Some of the dogs thought they were supposed to track when they saw the flags and were confused about why they were being asked to down.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> You don't let him flop - you are moving way too fast. You stay close enough and watch him for a sign that he will flop, and you get his attention and re-inforce the down command, and you reward him and praise him for NOT flopping. If he flops after one minute, shorten the time he has to stay in a down and reward. You very slowly increase the time. When you see him wanting to flop, just a "uh-uh!" may be enough to let him know to NOT flop, to keep position. Be close by to praise and reward.
> 
> Another tip, Sam, is to bring your dog to different spots on the field and surround with different items for the long down - we had a judge who designated the long down area on the opposite side of the field where we usually put our dogs for a long down, and identified the spot with a marker flag - the kind that we used to mark the start of our tracks.
> 
> Some of the dogs thought they were supposed to track when they saw the flags and were confused about why they were being asked to down.


Yep, def moving way too fast. I know it and still catch myself doing it. Not only that, I want everything perfect right after i start working on it and get disappointed when it doesn't happen

It helps me slow down when this is pointed out. Thank you, will be rereading all these posts as we train for the next few days to get into a habit of going slow and paying attention. 

Sorry for hijacking the thread. I will ask anything else someplace else))))


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I learned my lesson on long downs at an SDA trial. Their FO is similar to a BH but for the down, you are standing next to your dog. My dog went down on command and never broke is down, had his elbows and butt down the whole time, but at one point he shifted to one hip (like a dog casually lying down, not a sphinx-down) and he sniffed between his paws a few times. We got an insufficient for that exercise. It's almost harder being next to the dog because it's pretty safe for the dog. At least with an IPO long down, most dogs are a bit stressed out so that can be channeled into some more focus or intensity, keeping their head up and watching for the handler. With my dog's downs he tends to get too complacent, if anything (he's used to having to sit/down and wait for all kinds of stuff that is very exciting to him since we do so many sports), so I have to always mix it up and find that balance between keeping him on edge and keeping him DOWN, lol. Really long long downs are important, but for him so were really short ones. He also likes to anticipate the pick up/sit, so I did a lot of walking past him (and tossing a food reward), jumping over him, doing a cartwheel, you name it down means down.


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