# Techniques for keeping the dog straight and close in the blind



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I'd just like to hear other's methods. I've tried a few, some worked, some not. Recently "discovered" a method on my own that is working ultra-well... using it to fix the positioning of the dogs that like to clock one way or the other when the handler comes up to pickup the dog, or is otherwise messing with them, or the dogs that just don't understand correct positioning, and for some dogs that don't like to get so close b/c of confidence/etc. So, lets hear what tools are in the toolbox for this! 1-2-3... go!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pan used to go in where he was line up correctly in front of the helper but his body was at an angle (we used to joke that he was blind in one eye). To fix that we just brought him into more aggression (as opposed to letting him get wigged out in prey and "OMG I'm working!!!" crazy) and it made for a straighter, tighter guard.

Nikon is a work in progress so I do not nitpick his position at this point. He used to be obsessed with guarding the stick so if he goes in slightly sleeve-side I leave that alone!


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

So yeah I guess there are really two pieces to the equation... the position for the B&H, and secondly: maintaining the position when the handler walks in. I kinda see them as two different things... usually when someones working callouts and pickups to death you see the latter become an issue.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also had that problem, in fact have been working on it for over a year and can finally walk in and out, around the blind, touch the dog, etc without it effecting the guarding. It mainly took time, and making sure helpers did not do the things that caused the issue in the first place.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have worked it a couple different ways. More so when the dog is spinning but might work for this too. 

1) Dog comes in the blind with lead on and the helper carefully grabs the leash to hold dog in position. Make sence? I had to see it to understand thats why I ask. 

2) A back door blind. If the dog starts to spin or take eyes off helper, the helper runs out the back door. Dogs reaction of "oh crap where did he go". I better not move or he will get away.

Also maybe handler conflict or caused by doing call outs all the time?


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Bart Bellon discusses this a little in this clip.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Also maybe handler conflict or caused by doing call outs all the time?


That's what I've always seen causing it




Liesje said:


> Also had that problem, in fact have been working on it for over a year and can finally walk in and out, around the blind, touch the dog, etc without it effecting the guarding. It mainly took time, and making sure helpers did not do the things that caused the issue in the first place.


What would the helper do to cause it??


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sent you a PM, not really relevant to your thread (or open for discussion).


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Sent you a PM, not really relevant to your thread (or open for discussion).


No worries


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I saw Mike Diehl training a dog that wouldn't line up straight in the blind. As a solution, he did the following.

-kept a long lead on the dog and sent him to the blind
-had the helper in the blind, and a second random guy (no sleeve) standing by the entrance side to the blind.
-just before the dog rounded the blind (and was in motion), the second guy stomped on the long lead, giving the dog a correction on his prong collar.
-the dog lined up perfectly...

:shrug:
I have no idea why or how it worked, but it did...


----------



## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

My dog was bad about guarding the unprotected side away from the sleeve for a while. I could correct her with a long line, but she never really learned from this. We went to the helper wearing a sleeve on each arm. Worked like a charm.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> So yeah I guess there are really two pieces to the equation... the position for the B&H, and secondly: maintaining the position when the handler walks in. I kinda see them as two different things... usually when someones working callouts and pickups to death you see the latter become an issue.


My dog has a really good(great) instinctive H&B. Because of this, doing repetitive pickups and callouts could change it, and I don't want to mess up a good thing. 
So I'll walk in, pat him up, walk out, maybe make him sit, pick him up, or maybe walk away to the call out position. Always changing it up and he isn't sensitive to me coming in.

Now and then, he may go a bit sleeve side while guarding, so I'll check him or bump him over with my knee. I think if the handler changes up the exercises in the blind the dog will not expect to be called out, or picked up and keep up the strong guarding until directed otherwise. 
More often than not, either the stick is the issue or handler sensitivity.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Anyone ever used a platform?


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

For me, I've found pulling or correcting the dog into position to be the least effective


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

where I train, they use a platform for young dogs learning the B&H, and it works well.


----------



## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

A few different thoughts (for different dogs with different issues, thus different solutions)

For the crooked guarding:
1.) 2 sleeves (as mentioned earlier) so the dog does not know where the reward bite is coming from

2.) Place an obstacle to block the dog from being able to scoot to the side

For the lack of close guarding:
1.) Rearward escapes 

2.) Build drive and "pushiness" and build confidence to bring the dog in

3.) Civil work, and/or having the dog guard an unprotected helper that is inaccessible to the dog

Not all inclusive, but just a few random thoughts


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Why might some dogs guard away from the sleeve?


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Why might some dogs guard away from the sleeve?


I almost always see guarding at the sleeve. Either stick shy, or reward bite focused, or blocking the handler from taking a basic position when the move there once the handler approaches.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My dog starting guarding stick side. We tried to convince him to go sleeve side by using a wedge and then throwing it out to the side as a "reward." 
He was not impressed and seemed to get worse.... where he was avoiding the sleeve completely. It was weird, but then he is a weird dog.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mine will guard stick side if he's not centered (which we have been working on) because he *is* guarding the stick, lol.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Yeah.... mine was clearly avoiding the sleeve, but NOT avoiding the helper. He wanted the helper, and seemed annoyed/confused by the sleeve presentation. I think your comment of working with more seriousness is helpful.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

In either case, I think lessening the significance of the sleeve and/or stick, and refocusing the dog on the helper helps resolve the issue


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

I teach the guarding position from the beginning, but I can also modify the behavior if it is not too ingrained with the same method. I have 2 dark brown leather rags. The handler holds the dog on a long line. I have one of the rags in the bib of my helper pants, I leave the second one on the ground. When the dog barks at me, I pull out the rag and grip him and fight.. While he is carrying the rag I pick up the second one, put it in my bib. The dog learns to spit out the rag and bark at me in the eyes whether or not he can see a sleeve or rag and he gets what he wants, the bite/fight. I get to the point where I put the second rag in the bib when the dog is busy carrying, the handler outs the dog and kicks the rag out. I will pick up that rag and stimulate the dog. I then throw that rag away from me and the dog will stay focused and barking on me, bam out comes the second rag and he gets a grip. It is a very low stress exercise and translates over to the blind as the dog learns to sit directly in front of the helper and bark up into their eyes.



It also helps to learn the out without stress, just like the 2 ball game, outing is no problem because the helper has another one ready to go... and the dog does not lose.... 





Frank


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I guess I look at things from a more holistic angle. Where the dog sits, for me anyway, is an indication of drive level and how balanced he is in the work. When the helper has the dog working at the right drive level, everything seems to come into balance and that includes where the dog sits or stands in front of the helper . If the dog is not in drive, there wil be no fight drive and without fight drive, you will have a less than optimal hold and bark. 
People can try to put a band aid on what is wrong at the core, but it doesn't really work , at least not the dogs I have seen. Almost every problem, including the approach of the handler is caused by the dog not being at the right drive level. Most will try to fix the problem in the blind but for me, if the dog is showing these problems, you fix it elsewhere, meaning, you raise the dog's drive, balance the training and then go back to the blind. Also, problems with the approach of the handler, is usually caused by control, ( dog drops in drive and the fight drive goes away), but not just the control itself. Most people come up and command the dog but always seem to forget to tell the dog first, that they like what he is doing. That is called praise, something that I notice many people forget to do in protection. Praise is exceptionally important, especially with the dogs who mean it and are not playing.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Over the past few weeks what I've done with 4 dogs, thats worked well with all 4 dogs... 

If I'm doing it in a blind or if the dog is very quick in striking, I have the dog on a long line and the handler sends them in. I have the handler (or whoever is holding the line) not keep tension on the line but not so slack they can't immediately keep the dog from making a bite. If the dog gives me the slightest window to escape I do so and run to another blind. I try *not* to give them a miss, i.e. present a bite they can't get, I try to keep the sleeve and myself as neutral/non-attacking as possible. When I get away I have the handler release the dog just as I have enough time to get in another blind where the dog guards again. Alternately, I did it on a big oak tree with a dog pinning me against the tree... whatever side they gave me more room on I'd move and the dog would correct themselves to stop my lateral movement around the tree. I also tried it against a fence in the same manner. I'd escape much less distance, and have the handler re-command as the dog came after me, and before they could get to me or try to gather to bite, I'd lock back up and pin against the fence again (trying to make it as clear as possible to the dog that my arm was still down, this wasn't an escape, and there was no bite coming)

For 2 chronic offenders we saw dramatic improvement after I escaped once or twice. Both dogs always get nutty when the handler approaches, and the dog we tried handler walk-ins with was very away and tracking her in the corner of his eyes, but stopped moving entirely. Interestingly, all dogs I tried it with instantly guarded closer.

I think the issue (at least at our club) has been very good teaching that the dog must bark strong and consistently, but the piece I felt was missing was that the dogs understanding that they were pinning the helper in there with their position just as importantly as with the barking. Watching a dog try to corner a fleeing prey item against a fence is basically what I was trying to replicate. With all the dogs, as soon as I tapped into that instinctive behavior, their guarding changed... any twitch, slight movement, or even shifting my weight from one leg to the other would make the dog actively move to block the direction the perceived I was going to make a run for it.

Whenever possible I try to find a way to leverage a natural behavior or instinct rather than condition a dog to do something. Any thoughts on possible side effects, tweaks, etc?


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I guess I look at things from a more holistic angle. Where the dog sits, for me anyway, is an indication of drive level and how balanced he is in the work. When the helper has the dog working at the right drive level, everything seems to come into balance and that includes where the dog sits or stands in front of the helper . If the dog is not in drive, there wil be no fight drive and without fight drive, you will have a less than optimal hold and bark.
> People can try to put a band aid on what is wrong at the core, but it doesn't really work , at least not the dogs I have seen. Almost every problem, including the approach of the handler is caused by the dog not being at the right drive level. Most will try to fix the problem in the blind but for me, if the dog is showing these problems, you fix it elsewhere, meaning, you raise the dog's drive, balance the training and then go back to the blind. Also, problems with the approach of the handler, is usually caused by control, ( dog drops in drive and the fight drive goes away), but not just the control itself. Most people come up and command the dog but always seem to forget to tell the dog first, that they like what he is doing. That is called praise, something that I notice many people forget to do in protection. Praise is exceptionally important, especially with the dogs who mean it and are not playing.


I agree. Up to this point, if I see the dog getting too concerned about me during guarding (and Frank saw Katya do this at her IPO1 trial. Her guarding in the blind was awesome, elsewhere she began to be too concerned with me), I try and up the drive to keep the focus and fight with the helper. The method I just described I think compliments this approach (which I will continue using). The band-aids that I hate doing are conditioning the dog into a behavior, rather than actually teaching it.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hunter we did something like that with Pan a few times. This was during his first sessions learning a hold and bark, so there weren't any problems, but we wanted him to understand he was "holding" the helper, so the helper would try to run out of the blind sideways. If Pan was close enough during his guarding, he'd automatically get that bite when the helper tried to run out the side. If he wasn't quite close enough, me holding the line (and this was hard for me, to keep him once the helper escaped but not have tension on the line during his guarding) would prevent Pan from getting the bite. We did this twice and he put it together.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Hunter we did something like that with Pan a few times. This was during his first sessions learning a hold and bark, so there weren't any problems, but we wanted him to understand he was "holding" the helper, so the helper would try to run out of the blind sideways. If Pan was close enough during his guarding, he'd automatically get that bite when the helper tried to run out the side. If he wasn't quite close enough, me holding the line (and this was hard for me, to keep him once the helper escaped but not have tension on the line during his guarding) would prevent Pan from getting the bite. We did this twice and he put it together.


I was hesitate to allow any bites... My thinking being, if I ran it was to communicate the dog failed to keep me there, and I was wary about a dog learning to end the guarding by "flushing" the helper out


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> I guess I look at things from a more holistic angle. Where the dog sits, for me anyway, is an indication of drive level and how balanced he is in the work. When the helper has the dog working at the right drive level, everything seems to come into balance and that includes where the dog sits or stands in front of the helper . If the dog is not in drive, there wil be no fight drive and without fight drive, you will have a less than optimal hold and bark.


True.... but you know it is HARD!


----------

