# paws way to big ( walking on elbows?)



## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

hi all, just picked up my puppy after sending him cross crountry, 2 weeks ago, his paws are really big that he walks like he has clown shoes, cant really run right, is this his cartilage be messed up?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Do you have a picture? All big dogs have disproportionately big feet when they are puppies, and it's normal for them to be a little clumsy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think you may be saying he is down on his pasterns?

A picture would help.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes. And when he gets older don't forget to teach him how to lift his leg and mark.


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

here is some pics 
when he runs he flops around

*oversized pictures removed by moderator* 

Maximum picture posting size is 800 x 600 or 600 x 800. Please resize your pictures before posting.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Uh oh. That doesn't look good. Have a vet look him over. Sorry about my other post-I thought it was a troll.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

*Puppy with carpal subluxation - walking on elbows* 

There was another post on here dealing with this (downed pasterns) it may have some information on here that will be helpful to you.

Puppy with carpal subluxation - walking on elbows (







1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) 
GROCKSHD


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

CeCe said:


> Uh oh. That doesn't look good. Have a vet look him over. Sorry about my other post-I thought it was a troll.


oh thats not good, is there anything we can do? is this a permanent disfigurement?


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

The link that thats been posted is very informative. I've never seen this condition before but someone linked to a website in the other post that has a before and after pic and the dog is normal in the second pic so it seems like it can get better. Please let your breeder know that he has a problem with his paws and show them the pictures you've posted. I'm hoping for the best for your little guy-he's very cute.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would think the breeder is aware of the pasterns. What was the pup eating at the breeder? I would start with better nutrition to help him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

definitely what I expected .

hate to be a bother , if you could post a picture of the dog standing so that you are looking at his side. I want to see what the overall strength and ligament , cartilage integrity is like.

I see you just got the dog and had him shipped across the country . What were the terms of your purchase . Did you want a pet , did you ask for show quality?

Inform the breeder and have a discussion . You should have been informed so that your purchase was with full knowledge and consent. 

do not give calcium -- there are things which are beneficial , you are building ligament and cartilage , not bone. 

welcome - by the way .


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

*Don't give up hope!*

This is my pup right after I had him shipped to me at 14 wks of age. I had wanted a companion, protector, and hiking companion. This pup obviously was not what I had envisioned. I informed the breeder and he told me the vet said that the pup would out grow it. I seriously had my doubts. He was very small too, weighing only 21#s.

















But what about this face? Yeah, I know..what would happen to this pup if I sent him back? He did come with a full guarantee, I chose to wait it out and do lots of research.









What most seem to prescribe was low protein and high calcium. I fed him all he wanted of a mediocre quality regular puppy chow. Maybe I was wrong but I guessed it would be higher in calcium and the quality of protein would not be so great. Here he is at the age of four months. He is coming up quite nicely, he is still small for his age and look at that odd frontal movement. He has grown a bit, now weighing 34#s.

























Here he is now at seven months and looking a lot better. There does not seem to be any problems whatsover. He weighed 73.5#s in these pics.

















And here he is at 7.5 months, weighing 78#s.

















I added the weights because I did not know if his low weight had anything to do with his condition or not.

I did restrict his exercise a lot. He was allowed a little bit of play in the yard and house, but very little walking.

I hope this helps.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

My pup had/has the same thing. I switched him to a low protein food, walked him on numerous types of ground (gravel, grass, etc...they think this might have something to do with it. Can't hurt, anyways), and just watched him. Slowly but surely, he's coming up to where he needs to be, but his pasterns are still weak. He may or may not grow out of it. Either way, I love my pup to bunches. That link is AMAZING, btw. 

Here's Sheldon's front feet at 3 months:










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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










And this is him at about 7 months:


















Hope this helps!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so the dog is now 7 1/2 months old ?

looks like you did a very good job with raising him up .

what kind of guarantees did you get -- is there a guarantee for hips? I would have the dog checked , preliminary , hips and elbows. I would have some suspicion there . Just the way he stands. In several shots he's got his rear under (and forward) which changes how he supports his weight (takes pressure off) - also muscle development more up front then rear . That would be your #7 of 10 In your #6 of 10 it looks like his left rear leg , the supportive leg in this movement is falling in - bad bad explanation , but if you were to see it on a youtube I think you wouild see a rolling motion left to right , a bobble when he moves. Not to panic you -- it is good to know . Either activate a guarantee, get money back, or get some back to put towards future expenses.
At the least I would get some joint protection -- essential fatty acid also - which is anti inflammatory .
Don't put more weight on him. Keep him in good condition and cheap food won't be helpful there. Old saying "penny wise , pound foolish" (pound being British currency) . 
This may be a real stupid question , but is there a reason he is always mouth gaping tongue hanging. In one picture his tongue is sticking out at the side #8 of 10 . He has had a total health check and heart is okay?
He looks like a pretty good pal-dog , does he meet your expectations now as a hiking companion.

Carmen


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> so the dog is now 7 1/2 months old ?
> 
> looks like you did a very good job with raising him up .
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! You have no idea how much I appreciate your feed back. I will try within the next week to either find or make a video clip of his movement front and side. I would be very grateful for you evaluation.


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

He was in mexico with us and we didnt have access to good food last few weeks before we left he was on ol roy and beneful, then the home he was in he was probably locked up in his cage for a with little to none excercise maybe his paws developed without any movement, now he is on innova puppy food im not sure if thats good or not but i have heard some good things about it, so should i limit his excercise? because in mexico he was ALWAYS on asphalt concrete because there was no grass were we lived so maybe that has a factor to it.

he has diarrhea at the moment but hes probably just detoxing from all that bad food and all the food changes, if it keeps up for a week i suppose i should change his food to something better. 

but im mainly concerned if i should stop excercising him because i made him go up a small steep hill up and down to work his tendons and i guess it helped atleast one of his paws looks a little better. here are more pictures.


*********all photos removed... TOO LARGE. Please look at http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../153986-maximum-picture-size-800-x-600-a.html and http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/154022-how-resize-your-pictures.html *********

*his legs were spread out thats why it looks extra deformed*

**photos removed**

if i keep excercising him twice a day and keep him on good food for a month and no change i should have already saved enough for a vet visit because just got back from traveling with no job :/ otherwise id take him now.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

won't need surgery until he's much older, if I'm not mistaken. And usually they do go up on their own, as long as the food is decent with low protein. Walking is good, just try to make sure it's softer ground, like grass or dirt. I wouldn't do running for a loooonnggg time, or jumping or anything that could shock his joints. His actually look pretty good, so he should continue to come up as he ages =3


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

I would not exercise him on any manmade surfaces.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

those feet and those pasterns are always going to be a problem. Look at the foot . It shows you where the weight is landing when he takes a step. The nails show no wear . Easy to see in the first picture . The dog walks on his pastern not his foot.


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

so will he ever be able to run normal again?

im getting mixed messages on the thread i saw a guy saying that he excercised him good and fed him the best food, but the innova food i got has 28% protein and i shouldnt excercise him? i took him off concrete completely he is on grass and he seems to like it better. he still has diahrea but il let a week pass before i find another food, or start giving him calcium for his bones.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

If managed right, he'll run fairly normal, but like carmspack said, he'll always have problems with his feet. To me, it's not a huge deal, but my SO is a little bummed that he won't get to use Sheldon has his running partner. But he's a great companion and hiking dog =] I heard that calcium is bad right now, and low protein is good for them. That link they gave you earlier has TONS of info about it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one of the best strengthening exercises for ligaments is swimming. Actually I would like to get one of those little one lane pools where you swim against a stream - current.
One of the local dog spas has one and it does wonders. 

Any chance you can get him into the water.


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

i live 10 minutes from the beach but its really cold right now and he might get sick, any chance the diahrrea has any affect with it? or is it low quality food innova


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

low quality. Try Blue Lamb and Rice (my FAVE. did wonders for his poops). Or I've heard some good things about Nutromax =3


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Kodias Bear said:


> so will he ever be able to run normal again?
> 
> *im getting mixed messages on the thread* i saw a guy saying that he excercised him good and fed him the best food, but the innova food i got has 28% protein and i shouldnt excercise him? i took him off concrete completely he is on grass and he seems to like it better. he still has diahrea but il let a week pass before i find another food, or start giving him calcium for his bones.


 
Make sure you check up on http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-puppy-carpal-subluxation-walking-elbows.html (<--click on that) there were many good links included.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

iBaman said:


> low quality. Try Blue Lamb and Rice (my FAVE. did wonders for his poops). Or I've heard some good things about Nutromax =3


 
Innova is not a low quality food. Take a fecal to the vet and have him check for parasites...coccidia and giardia (note giardia is a different test than worms/coccidia), they get it from contaminated water.

If you did a full out food change from ol roy to Innova that could be it as well but do rule out parasites. Food tranistions need to be done slowly to avoid GI upset. Innova is a good food. I can't speak to the level of protein he needs with the condition. Carmen may have some input on that.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Innova is not a low quality food. Take a fecal to the vet and have him check for parasites...coccidia and giardia (note giardia is a different test than worms/coccidia), they get it from contaminated water.
> 
> If you did a full out food change from ol roy to Innova that could be it as well but do rule out parasites. Food tranistions need to be done slowly to avoid GI upset. Innova is a good food. I can't speak to the level of protein he needs with the condition. Carmen may have some input on that.


Woops, I was thinking of something else entirely xD 

The protein is on the higher end of low (if that makes sense), so it should be fine. if he doesn't improve, try a little lower, like 21-22%. When we got sheldon he was on 38% protein, with like 1.6 of calcium. We switched him to a 21% food, and saw improvement in less than a week.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Haven't seen any pictures yet because all have been removed for being too large.....

but it doesn't sound good!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I just read the link which MaggieRoseLee provided. One poster was very clear that it is genetic . IT IS . That is why I said earlier on , inform the breeder , have that discussion. I bet you other littermates and other progeny have had it in varying degrees. 

When Parvo first reared its ugly head I had a visitor bring parvo to me , and 8 pups were hit with it, caught earlier , put on IV , all survived, not a one of them had any loss in cartilage or ligament integrity.

is there value in looking at the pedigree in case forum members have related animals or experience coming out of these genetics - or for someone who wants to avoid bringing it in to their line.

Carmen


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

FTR, we've had many parvo dogs (came in surrendered by owner) and none had bone or joint or ligament issues due to it. All grew correctly when the parvo was gone.
I'd like to see pics of the OPs dog, did you figure out how to resize the photos?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Pat Hastings, in her seminars, recommends taking a puppy down on its pasterns off all puppy food and giving it adult food to slow down the growth. It doesn't even have to be high end food, Purina, Pedigree, etc will work fine. Also give mega doses of vitamin C.
This will slow down the growth and help the ligaments, tendons to catch up to the bone growth.
I have used this on lots of large breed puppies and it does work.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

I heard the same thing, wyominggrandma =3 I haven't done the vitamin C (by the time I had heard about it, he was already coming up and is doing fine without it). Why does vitamin C slow the growth? (probably a stupid question, but oh well)


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## Snickelfritz (Feb 21, 2007)

I really wish I could have seen the pictures. I guess they were just too large, and noone tried to resize them for her. It would help if we could see the pictures. To be able to help diagnosis. In some way.


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

ok so after this bag of food ill buy him the adult innova i suppose
im still unclear if i should play with him outside because he is really hyper and im sure that excersise cant hurt much,

here are the links to the pictures

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/ernieisextreme/SANY0176.jpg
this one looks extra deformed because he had his legs spread out


http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/ernieisextreme/SANY0177.jpg


http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/ernieisextreme/SANY0175.jpg


http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/ernieisextreme/SANY0178.jpg

if it would help i can record a video of him running and what not to further help the analyze the problem


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes, adult food. I'd actually go with a medium quality as well, but maybe that's just me.
Something like Diamond Naturals, or Kirkland (from Costco) the adult variety.

Poor baby.
I think exercise is fine as long as it's natural surfaces, grass, sand, pebbles, etc.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I meant the Adult lower or medium grade food will help slow down the growth. Not the vitamin C. When I reread it, it does sound like I meant the vitamin C also. Its good for ligaments, cartilage.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Cut those nails also.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Snickelfritz said:


> I really wish I could have seen the pictures. I guess they were just too large, and noone tried to resize them for her.


She can resize them herself in Photobucket. I don't know if there's any way for us to resize them for her.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I meant the Adult lower or medium grade food will help slow down the growth. Not the vitamin C. When I reread it, it does sound like I meant the vitamin C also. Its good for ligaments, cartilage.


Ahhhh, that makes more sense xD Maybe I'll start giving him some. =]


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Hi Kodias Bear, 

I hope your pup gets better soon! I was relieved somewhat when I saw that your pups case of "down pasterns" isn't as bad as the other pup from the different thread. I never knew about any of this until today and really, really hope your pup can exercise and eat his way out of this. swimming is the best exercise so that beach near by may be a lifesaver


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I dealt with the same issues, and my pups were pretty extreme...

(@ 15 weeks)



























I switched him to a low protein (around 21-23%) kibble (Natural Balance LID), and gave him MSM (1000mg or 2 pills a day), a Glucosamine hip and joint supplement with chrondoitin (3 tabs a day), Vit C, and an an Omega 3 Fish oil supplement.

Here he is after only 5 weeks on the new diet... Of all his issues, this was probably the easiest one I've had to deal with...





















Not the greatest pics, but this is him yesterday... He'll be a year old on the 31st.



















Hope all turns out well with your pup!


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Tina,

that is awesome! so encouraging!!!! I just found this thread and was so sad to think a puppy wouldn't get to run and romp around. that's what my dog lives for!


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

wow tina your pups legs look just like my kodi's, glad to see it healed up gives me hope for my little one.



> I switched him to a low protein (around 21-23%) kibble (Natural Balance LID), and gave him MSM (1000mg or 2 pills a day), a Glucosamine hip and joint supplement with chrondoitin (3 tabs a day), Vit C, and an an Omega 3 Fish oil supplement.


could you give me the brand of everything you gave him including the pills so i can go out and buy it? and did you keep him inside all day or did you make sure he was properly exercised


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Kodias Bear said:


> wow tina your pups legs look just like my kodi's, glad to see it healed up gives me hope for my little one.
> 
> 
> 
> could you give me the brand of everything you gave him including the pills so i can go out and buy it? and did you keep him inside all day or did you make sure he was properly exercised


We went on short hikes everyday in a wooded area with lots of dirt, grass, and soft padding. The MSM I found on either Amazon or Ebay and had Carmen approve it first. I don't remember the exact name, but she was able to tell me the correct amounts to give. The vitamin C and Omega 3 I picked up at Walmart in the vitamin section. I feed him raw now, but I believe the low protein kibble helped a lot. I went with the Natural Balance LID because it was the only grain free I could find with low protein levels. My female is allergic to grains and it's just easier for me to keep them on the same foods. The only thing I didn't like about the Natural Balance is that they supplement with sweet potatoes for the protein levels and it caused my gang to poop ALOT. Once his pasterns went up, I transitioned him over to raw and he has done well ever since.


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## Kodias Bear (Nov 30, 2011)

Lakl said:


> We went on short hikes everyday in a wooded area with lots of dirt, grass, and soft padding. The MSM I found on either Amazon or Ebay and had Carmen approve it first. I don't remember the exact name, but she was able to tell me the correct amounts to give. The vitamin C and Omega 3 I picked up at Walmart in the vitamin section. I feed him raw now, but I believe the low protein kibble helped a lot. I went with the Natural Balance LID because it was the only grain free I could find with low protein levels. My female is allergic to grains and it's just easier for me to keep them on the same foods. The only thing I didn't like about the Natural Balance is that they supplement with sweet potatoes for the protein levels and it caused my gang to poop ALOT. Once his pasterns went up, I transitioned him over to raw and he has done well ever since.


MSM? can i purchase that at petsmart? sorry i dont know who carmen is, oh i thought human vitamin c and omega 3 would hurt them, yea the food he has now has 26% and is puppy so ill switch him over next week when he finishes it to the natural balance adult food. thanks for all the tips you guys!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Purchase MSM at tractor supply in the equine section in a powder, at Walmart in the supplement section in pill form. Make sure it's a quality MSM without a lot of additives.

Carmen is a GSD breeder who knows her stuff and can help you with this. 

No, vit c and O3's will not hurt the dogs.

Tractor Supply that I have for my horse is Animed (2 1/2 lb) and has no fillers. 8000 mg/oz. 1T ~0.5 oz


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Carmen is Carmspack and she posted a few times in this thread.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yeah Tina , I am glad the Feed-Sentials and the oil helped your guy . He had more problems than these pasterns - quite a change in him since July , I would say.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Yeah Tina , I am glad the Feed-Sentials and the oil helped your guy . He had more problems than these pasterns - quite a change in him since July , I would say.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I need to reorder! Especially the oils-went way too fast with my pack of four, but I loved the results! 

Kodias - Carmen has some great all natural supplements as well that are more of an All-in-One.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MSM is supportive in the maintenance of connective tissue, building of cartilage and ligaments, among other things.
Omega 3 is anti-inflammatory. Many omega 3 products are a waste of money , flax, because they are so easily degraded changing the chemical bond from an omega 3 (desireable ) to an omega 6 (too abundant and pro-inflammatory). You need to know which oils are good for the essential fatty acids. 
Vitamin C , an anti scurbatic (scurvy) also is used for cartilage , however a whole food source - rosehips, acerola are preferred over an isolated form. Even back in the early 1930's , when Szent-Gyorgi discovered vitamin C, experiments were done with volunteers. One group received pure ascorbic acid - common Vit C crystaline white powder , the other group some brownish powder which from whole food source . Clearly , even then, it was demonstrated that the pure isolate form, ascorbic acid , did not perform as well as the whole food form with rutin and other compounds that are synergistic . 
So what was the problem, you can create ascorbic acid in a lab and sell it but you can't put a corner on the world market of oranges, black currants, food sources -- pharmacy vs farmer

Shavegrass - grasses , high in silica , important to joints .

got to end here , later
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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