# Vet pins/grabs muzzle & 13wk puppy bites at hand



## Jedi'sMom (Apr 17, 2014)

Let me start off by saying that I have not seen any behavior in my 13 week male that looks anything like aggression. He is a puppy. He was very, very mouthy, which I expected as he comes from german Schutzhund champion working lines on his fathers side. If I even said that right, I'm new so forgive me if not. Anyway, his mouthiness has improved amazingly. He will make mouth contact is if he is on his side, back, or someone grabs over his head at his collar. However, he listens with a stern "no bite." And these are not blood drawing, hard bites. Sometimes there is no pressure applied at all. He is in a puppy class, loves people, greets all people and dogs with tail wagging, and I've never heard so much as a growl. 

So FF to today, at his second vet check up. The vet and tech forced him to his side and held him down while trying to palpate his groin. He starting whining and struggling to get up. He was biting the vet tech's hand. She then grabbed his muzzle and squeezed it shut, at which point he became frantic and whining and wanting up even more. I told her not to grab his muzzle. So she gave treats instead, he calmed slightly and by then they were done. I then was questioned about whether I can take his food away, put my hand in his bowl, etc. Yes. I can. My 18 month old does it almost everyday. He could care less. The vet tech proceeded to tell me that this is an aggressive breed and I need to get him in classes (he already is in classes) and that I should be aware that they are aggresive because I have small children. Let's just say my BP was through the roof. 

Is his reaction aggressive? I've been working on touching him all over etc. He does fine usually and is getting better all the time. Not sure what I should be doing differently, if anything.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I've switched vets for a whole lot less. 

You are doing everything just fine - totally normal reaction for that sort of opposition at that age without counter conditioning. I would find a new vet asap.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Wow, that's ridiculous. But I've read that before, so I know it happens. I chose my vet in particular because he has GSDs. I wasn't having a terrible problem with the other vets in the past - just that hearing about how GSDs were in general ("But I like yours") was getting on my nerves, lol. 
Sorry you and your puppy had to go through that.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

New vet for me if I were you. Sorry that happened, hope you find a better, more knowledgable vet!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

find a new vet -- this one is adversarial from the outset --- will look for or create issues as the dog matures .


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

He sounds like a fine workingline puppy! I notice you said the vet TECH rolled your puppy and gave you this rant . Vet techs are not all created equal - the run the gambit between no more than a person who wants to work with dogs to having certifications and qualifications I would compare to a RN or nurse practitioner in the human world.

If you like the vet, keep the vet, insist on a different tech.

I have a very confident east german male. When he was a pup, there was one vet tech who cut his nails too short and made him bleed (from several nails), the vet was excellent. He was a past president of AAHA, very knowledgable but he only ever had one good vet tech plus his wife. 

Then Dr C retired and we had to find a new vet. The new vets office had one vet I liked but she wasn't always there, the other vets would muzzle Otto because he'd grumble about them looking at his ears. He was prone to ear infections when he was younger, plus the nail cutting thing, it became a game with him to intimidate the vet. Great, now you can't hear his heart rate because you've freaked him out with the muzzle. Same office told me Morgan's burst anal gland was probably cancer so pay for this expensive test. Same office made my friend muzzle his rottie because of the breed...

We switched after about a year of that insanity. I still board there because they have a great huge facility that used to be a car dealership - while they can attract great people and keep them in the boarding area, the vets are horrible and they're crazy expensive. Love my new vet, she breeds GSDs so she looks at Otto, calls him a beast and he leans on her for exam like he's saying 'you get me, you may touch me'


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This vet is an idiot.

And do not take away his bowl and put your hand in there to take food. You got lucky on your first one. This is a great way to CAUSE food aggression.

If you give it to him, it's his. If you want to avoid food aggression, do things like trade up, toss treats into his bowl, feed by hand.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Find another Vet! That is horrible treatment, especially for a puppy. The only reason your pup may get aggressive is if it keeps getting treated poorly at the vet.

We also have 6 cats and whenever we bring a cat to the vet, Molly wants to come - she gets very worried. So the vet tolerates Molly and the cat in the exam room together, she always has a nice greeting for Molly and said that Molly's behavior has improved so much just allowing her to come in as "support" for the cats. Hope you find a vet practice that has more positive practices.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The advice wasn't accurate, but nothing the vet tech did was wrong IMO...

Sorry, if the puppy is biting the hand, its not that out of the question for her to just hold the mouth shut while she finishes her exam.

SunCzarina...the vet TECH did not ROLL the puppy. The vet tech had the puppy on its side already while examining the stomach...there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If it were me, I would've been holding my dog to help the vet tech and probably in that situation would've just stuck my own hand in the dog's mouth in order to not cause any harm to the vet tech. When my boy was a puppy, the tummy exams took less than a minute...its not a bad thing for your dog to learn that it has to accept people touching it in certain places. If you wanted it to be a training exercise and are worried about the fact that the vet tech "forced" the dog on its side, you should do it all yourself. I've never been around a single vet or vet tech that wasn't more than happy to allow the owner to help with the handling of the animal or down and roll over (with a command) themselves.

But, we could just give the advice to not allow anyone to touch your dog so that when it gets bigger you need a muzzle because your dog doesn't like people touching it. Then you'll come on the forum and get ripped apart for not teaching this to your dog and socializing the dog properly when it was younger.

To call a 13 week old a problem, and insinuate that you'll have issues because you have children is weird. But the GSD is an aggressive breed, they can be problems, and many vets usually see the dogs that aren't trained properly. I remember how my vet was surprised to feel the fact that my dog still had testicles because he was so "calm" and "listened well" while we were in the exam room. I can just imagine what kinds of dogs he has to deal with on a daily basis and so of course they're going to develop certain prejudices.

I know this forum also likes to tell people to ditch vets when they advise them to neuter at 6 months...so if we're just going to advise people to leave vets because of their opinions, I guess this situation calls for the same advice.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

It was the tech handling your puppy and telling you he'll be aggressive? If so, I might agree with the advice that says keep the vet (if you like him/her) but request a different tech. But I'd also be questioning whether the vet agreed with the tech, since it seems they didn't object to what the tech was doing. The tech handling your puppy like that is a great way to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that he'll become aggressive.



> And do not take away his bowl and put your hand in there to take food. You got lucky on your first one. This is a great way to CAUSE food aggression.


I agree with this also. Simply messing with your puppy's food and bowl while he is eating is almost guaranteed to cause food aggression. Much better to give him treats while he is eating, or in exchange for taking the bowl. This way he sees you as bringing good things while he eats, not just pestering him.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> The advice wasn't accurate, but nothing the vet tech did was wrong IMO...
> 
> *Sorry, if the puppy is biting the hand, its not that out of the question for her to just hold the mouth shut while she finishes her exam.*
> 
> ...


 Yes, it is out of the question. I've never handled a puppy like this or let mine get handled like this. I have always supplied treats while working in shelters, and my vets use treats to keep my dogs still if I cannot assist, as well. 

No one is saying they shouldn't be touching the dog, you're making mountains out of molehills. We're saying they don't need to handle a puppy that way to get accomplished what they need, and this could do damage to the socialization of the dog. At least if no one touched the dog it wouldn't be afraid.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have never seen a vet or tech put a dog on its side to examine, they do it while they are standing. They might put there hand gently around muzzle if the dog is panting. That would be acceptable, squeezing the muzzle is not. In the pups defense he had no where to go and what they did was make him feel pinned. Get another vet.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I have never seen a vet or tech put a dog on its side to examine, they do it while they are standing. They might put there hand gently around muzzle if the dog is panting. That would be acceptable, squeezing the muzzle is not. In the pups defense he had no where to go and what they did was make him feel pinned. Get another vet.


Yuuuuup! :thumbup:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Martemchik, if you routinely hold your own puppy's mouth shut for biting, then it wouldn't be a problem for you - since your puppy would know that this is what happens in response to a bite. But since OP isn't doing this, why should the puppy be forced to tolerate it from a stranger? That's not right, IMO. The good thing is that when OP voiced concerns, a different approach was taken. I'd still not want to deal with people giving lectures about the breed, from their biased viewpoint. Sorry, my money supports those that I think deserve it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I assume your "18 month old" is a child of the human kind? DO NOT let this kid close by a dog who is eating, ever, no matter how you trust your dog.
And oh yes, change vets to a clinic who knows what they are doing and have left the stone age.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> I've switched vets for a whole lot less.
> 
> You are doing everything just fine - totally normal reaction for that sort of opposition at that age without counter conditioning. I would find a new vet asap.



this, find a new Vet, and if its about to happen again at another vet put a stop to it immediately

also when my guys were small, I did the holding while the Vet did their thing


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jedi'sMom said:


> The vet and tech forced him to his side and held him down while trying to palpate his groin. He starting whining and struggling to get up. He was biting the vet tech's hand. She then grabbed his muzzle and squeezed it shut, at which point he became frantic and whining and wanting up even more


And that is where I would have walked out. 

Do yourself a favor and find out where your local police force takes the K9s. 
You need vets and especially techs who know GSDs.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I'd be a little annoyed that the tech grabbed the muzzle and made my dog restless, but then again for every procedure done to my dog that requires some sort of restraint I make sure it's me that is the person near the face holding my dog. I've held her still for everything she's needed done

I'd just ask for a different tech because they don't know what they are talking about with the breed very much.

In the future I'd restrain your dog for them though


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Its weird that I went through the same thing at our second vet check. I was told by the vet who I now realise is a nincompoop, had no idea how to handle and is scared of dogs, that my dog is going to be aggressive. And he would need to be muzzled for his vet visits. I found a female vet who owns a GSD herself a half hour away. By then ours was 7 months old and MUCH bigger. He was like putty in her hands. When I told her what had happened with our previous vet she scoffed at it. 


I think perhaps all their warnings to you are because they usually do not see owners who invest in training their dogs. AND in general, they are afraid of the bigger protective breeds.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

All of the vets I've used have commented on how GSD's have poor nerves, are fear biters and usually expect that whenever they see the breed. 
I have one that is highly aggressive with the vetting procedures so I muzzle her. I don't let the techs handle my dogs, I do it myself while they do their blood draws or vaccines. 

With a baby puppy, the vet should be making the experience as positive as possible. What was the reason for the groin exam? Are both testicles down or is there one missing?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I restrain my dog at the vets. Its not a good idea to have a stranger restraining a GSDs head well another stranger jabs something into its rear end. Recipie for disaster.


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## Redrider469 (Jul 19, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I restrain my dog at the vets. Its not a good idea to have a stranger restraining a GSDs head well another stranger jabs something into its rear end. Recipie for disaster.



Good advice. I also do this. The Vet appreciates it and it makes the exam much easier for my pup as well.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Ugh. Switch vets. I had a similar experience. My dutchie first greeted my old vet by biting his shoe laces... he was not impressed (10 weeks old!!!!). Then he gave me a lecture about the aggressive dominant breed yadayada. It wouldn't have been so bad but this vet has known me for a couple of years and he was just not listening to me. I switched to a local vet that raises huskies. She is great. 

Good luck.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I restrain my dog at the vets. Its not a good idea to have a stranger restraining a GSDs head well another stranger jabs something into its rear end. Recipie for disaster.


Same deal here, I always handle my dogs at the vet. For routine exams and shots.

Most vets never give it a second thought and appreciate the effort. If you vet allowed this to happen...I'd lose him. 

Sounds like future problems waiting to happen!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sri said:


> Its weird that I went through the same thing at our second vet check. I was told by the vet who I now realise is a nincompoop, had no idea how to handle and is scared of dogs, that my dog is going to be aggressive. And he would need to be muzzled for his vet visits.


Had similar happen with one of my mix puppies. I walked out of that office and never went back. I still tell people to stay away from there. You don't tell me a 5 month old baby is aggressive and needs to be muzzled. If he was being aggressive it was because they were scaring the crap out of him and they were doing something I specifically told them not to do. (he was very head shy and scared and they were trying to drag him with one of those choke sticks :angryfire: 

BTW he loves my regular vet and has never given her a problem.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Most vets will not allow an owner to restrain their own animal. If you get bit, the Vet is liable. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some dogs can't be or should not be given treats, EPI dogs, dogs that are slated for some type of surgery. You cannot always shove treats in a dog's mouth. I have never once went armed with treats into a vet's office. Never. 

Sometimes when a vet or tech had to do something painful or scary, after it was done, I asked them to give the dog a treat. 

This happened today, and why I am bringing it up -- not treats though, she didn't need them. The bitch is full grown and not a puppy, in fact we were looking for a possibly retained puppy, while her puppies were left in the exam room, I went with them to the x-ray room, and I got her up on the x-ray table.

Then I told her to down, which she did, and I said stay. The techs then took over, and they had to put the 81 pound Jenna onto her side. One hugged her head to hold her down on her side, while the other managed the back legs. I had to duck out so they could click the x-ray, then I came back in and took over my dog.

You cannot always be the one to manage your dog. They should handle handling. I suppose that dog owner's with Blitzkrieg's philosophy would have had to muzzle their bitch for this procedure. A muzzle might have made the dog even more nervous or irritated at the handling by the vet techs -- strangers. And made the x-ray impossible without sedation. 

Sedating a lactating bitch is simply not a good idea. 

I think that we should not crucify vets and vet techs if they have had some negative experiences with our breed when the owners expect them to freak out at vets, and not allow handling. 

Putting a puppy on its side might make a dominant puppy antsy. Holding it down will make it more antsy. I might have handled this situation differently. I probably would have put the puppy up on the table, and then put it on its side where all the people were less awkward, less hunching over the dog. When the vet looks for testicles on my puppies, I always hand them to them on the table. 

There are plenty of great reasons out there to switch vets. If you switch vets every time someone says boo to your dog wrong, or tells you your Pootsy Poo could stand to loose a couple, you will run out of vets. And maybe when it is really important for a vet to see you and the dog, and maybe a dog he has seen when the dog was acting normally, you won't have that benefit because you got all worked up about minor things.

It is not a bad idea to let your GSD get used to handling by a variety of people. Because some day, someone might need to put your dog on its side and perform some sort of delicate whatever, like had to happen to my dog today.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I restrain my dog at the vets. Its not a good idea to have a stranger restraining a GSDs head well another stranger jabs something into its rear end. Recipie for disaster.


It is NOT a recipe for disaster. A dog with good nerve should be able to handle restraint while having its temperature taken or a shot. No problem. A dog that freaked out for such simple things, I wouldn't give kennel space to. And, sometimes the owner's presence causes the dog to be even more freaked out. A dog that would be perfectly ok with what the people are doing, might react because its owner is in there so worried about how the dog is going to take this, that the dog is getting all kinds of bad vibes.

GSD owners have theirselves to blame when it comes to a nasty reputation at vets.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I always restrain my own dog too. Especially working dogs that get more than their share of pokes and jabs. They can learn to hate the vet.

I don't expect a dog trained to protect itself to automatically accept vet handling based on nerves alone. Some can be trained, but I don't think it's an indicator of nerve if a working dog is vet aggressive. I have seen quite the opposite.

JMHO


David Winners


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I also restrain my own dogs - and not a single person is allowed to clamp their muzzles, not even my DH when my pup was in his landshark phase. I think if someone is intimidated by a 13 week old puppy, they should stay away from them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I don't expect a dog trained to protect itself to automatically accept vet handling based on nerves alone. Some can be trained, but I don't think it's an indicator of nerve if a working dog is vet aggressive. I have seen quite the opposite.


I agree, my male has great nerves, but he surely isn't into invasions of his personal space by someone he doesn't know.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fama laid a vet flat out on her back with a muzzle punch to the chest. The vet said to let her go. I should have known better. No nerve issues involved, just bad attitude.

David Winners


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Fama laid a vet flat out on her back with a muzzle punch to the chest. The vet said to let her go. I should have known better. No nerve issues involved, just bad attitude.
> 
> David Winners


Fama sounds like some kind of special dog, I think all of us reading this wish we could meet her.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi did great at her last vet appointment, but we muzzled her for the temperature taking because the last time we took her the vet tech wasn't as skilled and cornered her. She growled. This vet was very skilled so despite the muzzle she didn't growl, just cried a little. We always hold her head.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So David, how would you restrain your own dog for an x-ray? Would they provide you with an apron and collar to ensure that you do not get zapped -- the vet did this for me when I helped on a Sunday, but ordinarily, I let them do x-rays on their own. 

Even my schutzhund dog can be handled by vets with no problems, and that means getting stuff shoved up her bum or having pokes, bloodwork, prep for surgery, etc. 

I can safely restrain my own dogs,, and have in some situations, but they can also be handled by the vet techs, and vet, groomers, etc. If the OP is raising a working dog, I think that their club or trainer would probably let them know what to and what not to accept from the dog at the vet. If the OP is raising a pet dog, than it makes more sense to help the OP teach their pup to accept all handling that you are allowing, rather than encouraging them to restrain their own dog, because clearly, you cannot _always _be the one doing the restraining, and those dogs that require their momma to be the one doing the restraining, are going to have a lot tougher time of it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Most vets will not allow an owner to restrain their own animal. If you get bit, the Vet is liable.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is very true.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well weighing in as a "pet person" I expect my dogs to behave when being handled by vet techs and I have never had any "issues."

I don't expect them " manhandle" a pup as it sounds like this pup was? They either have an attitude, or are scared of "real dogs" or some other issues?

I don't see how it could have been a positive experience for the pup? My vet first saw Rocky when he was 60 lbs and it was a positive experience. Pretty sure that at 125lbs (yes OS GSD) he's happy he did not "man handle" him from day one?

True, you do have to pick your battles but I have never seen a vet do anything like this with any of my dogs??


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> So David, how would you restrain your own dog for an x-ray? Would they provide you with an apron and collar to ensure that you do not get zapped -- the vet did this for me when I helped on a Sunday, but ordinarily, I let them do x-rays on their own.
> 
> Even my schutzhund dog can be handled by vets with no problems, and that means getting stuff shoved up her bum or having pokes, bloodwork, prep for surgery, etc.
> 
> I can safely restrain my own dogs,, and have in some situations, but they can also be handled by the vet techs, and vet, groomers, etc. If the OP is raising a working dog, I think that their club or trainer would probably let them know what to and what not to accept from the dog at the vet. If the OP is raising a pet dog, than it makes more sense to help the OP teach their pup to accept all handling that you are allowing, rather than encouraging them to restrain their own dog, because clearly, you cannot _always _be the one doing the restraining, and those dogs that require their momma to be the one doing the restraining, are going to have a lot tougher time of it.


If you read my post, I did say some can be trained to allow handling.

Nowhere did I suggest that the OP do anything with their dog. I stated how I handle my dogs.

Yes, I always handle my dogs, X-rays, dental, vaccinations, blood draws, exams, everything. I have never had a vet argue with the common sense. If they take the dog to the back without me and it gets violent, for whatever reason, they are going to have a MUCH more difficult time handling it than I will. Usually after a short conversation about the training I have had, they welcome my assistance. I have done many blood draws and injections. I start IVs. I pretty much did everything with Fama until she was asleep until I had a vet tech spend a few days with us, working on handling.

If you are reading this, thanks Staci!!

If I went to a vet where this was a problem, I would leave. I don't see where this makes it tougher on the owner at all. You get to be there and learn stuff. 


My post was in response to your comment that any dog that was aggressive at the vet had nerve issues. I'm glad your titled dog is calm at the vet. That makes things easier. When was the last time it did bitework? Had a street bite and was injured by the suspect?

It certainly isn't an indication of how all working dogs are going to react to being restrained by a stranger and subjected to pain. 


Again, this is how I handle my dogs. If something else works for you, that's cool.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Gretchen said:


> Fama sounds like some kind of special dog, I think all of us reading this wish we could meet her.


She was a flaming jerk for quite a while.

Nobody but me liked that dog for 6 months. It makes me giggle that everyone wants to meet her now


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi is also a flaming jerk. I've been told she is a nightmare pet by my best friend. Gonna keep her though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> If you read my post, I did say some can be trained to allow handling.
> 
> Nowhere did I suggest that the OP do anything with their dog. I stated how I handle my dogs.
> 
> ...



Many of my dogs are titled. The only one I did not raise and train is the schutzhund one, which means that even a dog that I did not condition in any way to my vet or any vet office is fine with them doing anything with her, which includes pokes, blood draws, and x-rays. And she has been that way since two days after I got her and rushed her to the ER. So it has nothing to do with my training at all. She is a good dog with solid nerves, and doesn't act reactive at the vet. Nor does she defend herself from a non-threat. Nor does she protect her personal space. 

I have been through c-sections, x-rays, ultrasounds, given injections, tube fed puppies, and I am almost present at everything my dogs go through. Probably because I do not freak my dogs out. I do not start IVs. And unless there is a reason, like it's only me and the vet there, I will not force my way into the x-ray. And if I am at a vet where they do not know me, it is an emergency and my arguing and fighting and demanding to be present is taking away from the dog being treated. So I don't do that. 

As for the bitework, as everyone knows, I did not do that, I have no reason to do bitework. But the dog has for schutzhund and her koer report. Glad you pointed that out. I guess maybe she forgot how to bite now that she hasn't had to in so long. I didn't realize that putting a thermometer in the bum is one of the reasons a trained dog should bite. I always thought that the trained dogs were more safe because they are clear on when and why to bite and may require a command to bite. 

I understand that some people want a dog that have more attitude, self-decision making power -- not sure what the word would be self-reliant, independent, etc. And for MWDs or PDs, that should be highly trained and their owners more than the typical trainer/owner/handler, I would expect that vets would be more likely to let the owners do a lot more with the dogs, or muzzle them for treatment. But for the rest of us, who do not want or need dogs that choose where and when and whom they bite, and who do not necessarily have the same standing in the vet's office, it makes a lot more sense to condition dogs to be more accepting of what happens at the vet then to make excuses for a little puppy that had a problem being restrained for an exam.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Let me expand a bit on my earlier statement. I was at work, time was short. 

My clinic deal with 4 departments K9. If I go into a room and the handler tells me "I should hold him" I let him/her. If I handler says " you can hold him" I trust him and restrain. 

It's a big liability for the practice to allow an owner to hold. We are responsible if something happens. That said, we are not crazy. If a handler has proven their ability to control their dog, then we let them. We see many working dogs for semen collection, many high level competition dogs. If we trust the owner they can hold. 

If I don't know you or your dog, you can be dang sure that I am not trusting my face and hands to someone that I have no idea if they know what they are doing. I have done it, lesson learned, when the dog turned to bite, the owner got scared and let go. 3 inches from my nose. 

Sorry. Not again. 

To the OP, I don't know what your vet and tech were doing, and why they needed the pup on its side. I was not there. But, in their defense, the tech stopped and did what you asked. So that's something. Is that how I would handle a puppy? Probably not. But again, I was not there. 


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am reading all these responses with fascination.

See, I have a 3 year old mill rescue who was mishandled by a vet, slapped, at 12 weeks old. Now all vets are evil, so we struggle. I handle my own dog, always and my current vet has been a gem trying to help. She isn't a working dog, isn't well bred at all. What she is is a little ass, and I don't need the headache. Shadow is my little treasure, but she is also my greatest trial. My DDR/Czech boy has nothing on her, except 30 lbs.

To the OP, find a new vet and find one that will help you undo this. Sabs vet hated muzzles, and was free with the treats. Animals loved him, and he encouraged owner participation in everything. As far as the food thing goes, any and every dog that enters my home learns that I give the food and I will take it away. Whenever I like. Same goes for toys. I have yet to have any RG issues. And we are talking hundreds of dogs from all different backgrounds and breeds. My dogs do eat in their crates, and that's fine but if I need to take something out of their mouth I will. Period. Fortunately they also have a rock solid 'Out'.


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## Jedi'sMom (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. This puppy is going to be a family pet. However, we are planning to get him involved in something. Nothing too serious. Something to give him a job. We have no idea what. This is all new to me. My other dogs were hunting dogs/family pets and were no where near as smart.

It was the vet tech that squeezed his muzzle. It was the vet tech that warned me of the vile nature of the GSD. The vet was the one asking if I could remove his food or put my hand in his bowl (yes it's an 18 month old human that gets in his food bowl, no I don't encourage it-like the puppy he is a quick little devil, they are never alone together). It was the vet that wanted him on his side. They were feeling for testicles and I don't know why they couldn't do it standing, as I have seen done with my 2 previous dogs. He was up on the table at the time. The practice is new to me but I have a long time friend that is a vet there. I was trying to meet all the vets, thus I scheduled his second appointment with a different doctor. Our next appointment is with my friend. 

Of course I want this puppy to be ok being handled at the vet. He loves people and I take him out on errands often. Today he was at my son's karate practice and enjoyed lots of petting and attention from adults and kids alike. I'm just not sure this experience is going to help. And I was put off by the insinuation that his response=aggressive dog, be scared, you have little kids. I wanted some insight from other GSD owners as to whether his response was normal...or not. I had a lab that would bite (poor breeding), yet no one ever warned me of the aggressive nature of labs. I wonder if another breed would've had the same response. 

He is smart as a whip and learns new commands very quickly. He had no problem with the tech taking him off to be weighed, getting his shots, being examined otherwise. He was definitely not the alpha of the litter, but I've read that a more dominant puppy does not like being on his side or restrained. So I guess that's him. He sometimes will even give me a little back talk even with the down command but he always does it. Even for my 4 year old. So I ask, how do I help him to learn that it's ok to let a stranger hold him down? Or do I?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you leave your dog's food alone, when you need to take something out of the dog's mouth it won't be a problem. If you mess around with your dog's food, it is a toss up. If the dog has resource guarding tendencies, it will cause a problem. If it does not, it probably will not. By and far, the best bet is to let your dog learn that you are not concerned with his food.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Disgusting behaviour from the vet - I do not let ANYONE, vet included, manhandle my dogs or puppies. I demand to be the one to restrain my dogs for the procedures and check ups... strangers manhandling your puppy and created stress is NOT okay. :/

Not aggression... just a GSD puppy being a GSD puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jedi'sMom said:


> Thanks for all the replies. This puppy is going to be a family pet. However, we are planning to get him involved in something. Nothing too serious. Something to give him a job. We have no idea what. This is all new to me. My other dogs were hunting dogs/family pets and were no where near as smart.
> 
> It was the vet tech that squeezed his muzzle. It was the vet tech that warned me of the vile nature of the GSD. The vet was the one asking if I could remove his food or put my hand in his bowl (yes it's an 18 month old human that gets in his food bowl, no I don't encourage it-like the puppy he is a quick little devil, they are never alone together). It was the vet that wanted him on his side. They were feeling for testicles and I don't know why they couldn't do it standing, as I have seen done with my 2 previous dogs. He was up on the table at the time. The practice is new to me but I have a long time friend that is a vet there. I was trying to meet all the vets, thus I scheduled his second appointment with a different doctor. Our next appointment is with my friend.
> 
> ...


Sometimes they have trouble finding the testicles if they haven't dropped yet. There is a period when they seem to go up and down. They might lay the pup down, sometimes on their back to actually feel the sides and try to locate the bumps. 

Take the pup a couple of times a week to the vet office and have them give him treats. Put him on the scale, and leave, stay happy and upbeat during these trips. 

At home, pet your dog in lots of positions, put him on his side, and rub his belling. Then play with your tug. Make it all a game. Touch every foot, and then throw his ball. Make him lay down, teach him to roll over. Then give him belly rubs. 

Keep up with your socialization with people not in your inner circle. You are taking him to classes, ask your trainer to pet him when he is down. And maybe the next week have him on his side and have her just give him a little pet. Maybe the next week put him in a down and have her touch his paws.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

David Winners said:


> Yes, I always handle my dogs, X-rays, dental, vaccinations, blood draws, exams, everything. I have never had a vet argue with the common sense. If they take the dog to the back without me and it gets violent, for whatever reason, they are going to have a MUCH more difficult time handling it than I will. Usually after a short conversation about the training I have had, they welcome my assistance. I have done many blood draws and injections. I start IVs. I pretty much did everything with Fama until she was asleep until I had a vet tech spend a few days with us, working on handling.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I've worked long term in a veterinarian hospital, am certified Animal Care technician, did my field placement for school under a veterinarian at a local humane society... restraint, IV work, surgery prep, vaccines, blood draws; I've done it. I *KNOW* how some vet techs manhandle large, "scary" breeds... after watching my co-workers wrestle, sit on and muzzle a weary German Shepherd who JUST HAD hip surgery on both hips because he "looked aggressive", I refuse to let anyone take my dog anywhere without me for any procedure. I saw a lot of manhandling and unnecessary roughness during my career, and I refuse to let anyone handle my dog like that.


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## Jedi'sMom (Apr 17, 2014)

We are trying to do all of those things. He loves belly rubs and already knows the roll over command thanks to my teenage stepdaughter. We practice being touched all over at his class and the trainers do it as well. But he does not want to be restrained or held down. 

And just so you can see how stinkin' adorable he is...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your doing fine. What they were doing was causing the pup to be more stressed, you had a better solution, and they listened to you. And it worked.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

This is interesting because I've never had a vet or a tech tell me not to restrain my own dog. 

My cat - they can have at the Pocket Panther. Take her in the back room, stuff her in a sack, do what you have to do but don't make me part of it! Her first and second yearly checkups, I handed over her carrier and sat down. This year, my son wanted to do it. I brought Otto. He'll keep me safe and keep the cat intimidated.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Jedi'sMom said:


> And just so you can see how stinkin' adorable he is...


Yeah he is!!! He's a sable though, there will be many times to come that people are just afraid of him because of how he looks. I had a black sable growing up. EVERYONE was scared of him.


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## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

Jedi'sMom said:


> We are trying to do all of those things. He loves belly rubs and already knows the roll over command thanks to my teenage stepdaughter. We practice being touched all over at his class and the trainers do it as well. But he does not want to be restrained or held down.
> 
> And just so you can see how stinkin' adorable he is...


He's so freaking cute!! 
We have issues at the vet as well. And it's strange to me as well since Zoe had zero issues at all being touched and petted all over. She is fine until they try to get her on the scale and check her out. 

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Some dogs maybe lots? Don't like the scale. It took Rocky a bit of time to get use to it he's fine now. My other dogs it was a none issue from the start.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I choose my vet based on recommendations and personal experience in meeting them. I will NEVER allow ANYONE to manhandle my animals. If they need handling, I'll be the one to do it because the animals know me and are comfortable with me. 

My current vet I allow to handle Dax. If the tech comes in and isn't good in how they handle him, I ask for a new tech. For the most part, everyone at the current practice is very good. Dax's only problem is he isn't fond of being physically restrained at all but he's definitely improved. Shasta tolerates. She's not thrilled but she tolerates anything they want to do to her. I can get her to lay on her side and she'll just stay there until I release her. Getting Dax to lay on his side is like trying to turn an apple into an orange. He simply will NOT do it. Not even for me and I can pretty much get away with murder in his eyes. 

Far as normal behavior, your puppy behaved normally for being manhandled by strangers. I'd be a angry little one too if I were him. Don't allow manhandling. Its a good way to create some serious behavior problems at the vets office.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

There are a lot of clueless people who own GSD. That is why they are generally disliked in vet clinics. Not everyone who takes one to a vet is knowledgeable on how to restrain dogs so that vets don't get disfigured. Not all of them frequent forums or attend schutzund or work with canines in the army.
It takes time to build trust with a practice ......for them to get to know how capable you are at restraining animals......I don't think that is unjustified. For every nice GSD they might see 5 horrible ones......that is the shame of it. 
They may have been seeing if both testicles have decsended if they were examining the groin area .......
I probably would find another vet cause you will be really stressed with this one after that experience and your pup will pick up on it. 
Keep your 18month old away from the food bowl and let him eat in peace


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

When I took Gunther to his new vet for his pano I was impressed. they essentially cornered him and told me to stand right behind them so he could see me knowing it would calm him without even asking. I liked the clinic because even though they were the ones handling him they asked me to keep close and keep physical contact so he would feel better. The old clinic would pretty much shove me aside. This vet did muzzle him for x-rays but I could understand that since I couldn't be in the room with him and they were going to be twisting his leg around. I like that they drew the line where necessary but allowed me in. The old clinic made me feel anxious every time they examined my animals because they made me feel like an outsider. They would get done and rather than release the animal to come to me for reassurance they would hold them in place and try to force feed them treats. That may work for some owners but not me. Since I consider myself a very active part of everything in my pets lives I also need to be at least a partially active part of their doctor visits.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

SunCzarina said:


> My cat - they can have at the Pocket Panther. Take her in the back room, stuff her in a sack, do what you have to do but don't make me part of it! Her first and second yearly checkups, I handed over her carrier and sat down.


You made me laugh out loud........I think most people are like this......I loved working with cats but have a few scars to show for it


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Much as I wish that I could defend those in my field, I know the truth is that not all of us are created equal, and many get overhandy with animals that simply do not need it. Sadly when we are going to school, we are taught a set amount of ways to handle animals. They don't really teach you the things that other people have figured out in all their time of working. I didn't truly learn how to handle animals well until I was out in the work force, working with some of the most amazing technicians and assistants that I've ever met. To this day I am very glad that I've learned all I have from them, because I am certain to be an advocate for the animals and have found ways to handle them that make it easier for all of us around. 

As someone else put it, the vet is liable if you are hurt by your own pet, so that is why they usually recommend the staff restrain instead. I don't know many who hold this standard for working LE or military K9s however. I have gotten to work with some away from their handlers, but they are always muzzled and for whatever reason they have all been totally fine with me lol. It is hard for me not to look at how a patient is being overhandled and make my way over to offer to help or possibly take over. Shepherds usually don't require a lot of restraint, and one tool few people seem to use enough is the plastic Elizabethan collars! They are my favorite thing to use because it doesn't take that ability to bite away, however they can't bite sideways through plastic! Makes holding cats more like dogs easier, and generally speaking it gives them a distraction that they aren't usually used to. They have saved my skin plenty of times lol.

I have actually been in the shoes of a client seeing someone manhandle a shepherd who didn't need it. My roommate's dog the last time that we went to the vet with her (the vets there I used to work with) I almost, ALMOST wanted to ask the girl who came in to help to leave because I could handle the Werewolf better. She constantly had a hold of her muzzle and it took everything in my body to keep from pushing her into the opposite wall. >> I do normally try to have more tact than that. However I do often walk into situations where I think something could go differently. 

I had a friend in a sweet little sable pup who came in not too long ago. He was having some lameness in his front legs and they wanted to know where his other testicle was. We needed to sedate him for things, and the girl who was helping kept trying to make him lay down and stay down by holding his front legs and pulling them forward. The puppy was obviously upset and getting panicked. I watched for about a minute before pushing the syringe with the drugs at her and telling her to give it and that I would hold. Sat on the x-ray table, gently cradled his head and got him to lay on his side with his head on my lap without any flinching or complaining. Later that day when he was waking up and upset because he got a little clipper burn from where he had to be shaved for the ultrasound, he was making quite a racket. Went to take him out, figuring he had to go potty, he instantly went between my legs and curled around my left leg. I was standing in the middle of the hallway lol.

So for a good ten or so minutes, everyone walking by got to see this...










Cutest was when I got him laying down the length of my legs so we could put some trameel onto his irritated area. He just burrowed his little nose into my neck and snuggled in.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I will restrain them unless the doctor prefers to have a tech do it. If I don't like(it's never happened) how they are doing it I would step in. Some want to muzzle others don't. The only one that is muzzled every time is my oldest non GSD, she doesn't want any of them near her. Midnite loves the vet , he gets excited when the vet comes in. My female GSD prefers not to be there.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> Many of my dogs are titled. The only one I did not raise and train is the schutzhund one, which means that even a dog that I did not condition in any way to my vet or any vet office is fine with them doing anything with her, which includes pokes, blood draws, and x-rays. And she has been that way since two days after I got her and rushed her to the ER. So it has nothing to do with my training at all. She is a good dog with solid nerves, and doesn't act reactive at the vet. Nor does she defend herself from a non-threat. Nor does she protect her personal space.
> 
> I have been through c-sections, x-rays, ultrasounds, given injections, tube fed puppies, and I am almost present at everything my dogs go through. Probably because I do not freak my dogs out. I do not start IVs. And unless there is a reason, like it's only me and the vet there, I will not force my way into the x-ray. And if I am at a vet where they do not know me, it is an emergency and my arguing and fighting and demanding to be present is taking away from the dog being treated. So I don't do that.
> 
> ...


It is ironic to me how safety minded you are in most situations when dealing with potentially dangerous dogs, when concerning new arrivals, kids, dogs with bite history etc, but in a vet situation, you think having a person the dog has just met restrain the dog and stick something in it's butt is totally normal for the dog and should be handled well automatically.

How does that make sense at all?

If you just meet a new dog, do you put it up on a slick table, wrap your arms around it with your face close to theirs and reach around behind for a quick "who's your father?" If a PPD trained dog reacts in this situation, you would be surprised? 

If your SchH titled dog handles the vet well, great. It doesn't mean others will. Some dogs have more attitude with strangers than others. I've met some really soft SchHIII dogs that wouldn't last 10 seconds on the field with a decoy putting real pressure on the dog. They may do great at the vet. Strangers are a party to them and they don't expect otherwise.


You bring up an emergency situation where you arguing to get into the exam room may delay treatment. What if I don't make that argument and the dog goes ballistic because the tech restraining the dog is afraid and inexperienced? How is treatment going to go then?


It is ALWAYS better to train handling with a dog so they get used to accepting it and are under less stress when being examined. That stress can some from fear or from trying to exhibit self control. 


To the OP. You can marker train handling so the dog is used to being placed in strange positions and remaining calm. You can also classically condition being at the vet as a good thing. I believe you should do both frequently to help alleviate stress in this type of situation.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

It is perfectly understandable that you would handle your own dogs at the vet David......the average Joe doesn't have PPD dogs nor do they have your experience handling dogs. 
Some of these threads seem to imply that unless you find a vet who will let new clients restrain their own animals then look elsewhere.......that kind of argument seems unfair to me......I have seen a vet bitten badly in the face cause she allowed a pushy client to restrain her own dog instead of me........I know that dog would not have bitten her if I held it so I can see the other side of the restraint argument.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
> 
> I've worked long term in a veterinarian hospital, am certified Animal Care technician, did my field placement for school under a veterinarian at a local humane society... restraint, IV work, surgery prep, vaccines, blood draws; I've done it. I *KNOW* how some vet techs manhandle large, "scary" breeds... after watching my co-workers wrestle, sit on and muzzle a weary German Shepherd who JUST HAD hip surgery on both hips because he "looked aggressive", I refuse to let anyone take my dog anywhere without me for any procedure. I saw a lot of manhandling and unnecessary roughness during my career, and I refuse to let anyone handle my dog like that.


That's a real shame.....I have had the opposite experience......I can't think of many I worked with who weren't excellent at restraint......


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

sparra said:


> It is perfectly understandable that you would handle your own dogs at the vet David......the average Joe doesn't have PPD dogs nor do they have your experience handling dogs.
> Some of these threads seem to imply that unless you find a vet who will let new clients restrain their own animals then look elsewhere.......that kind of argument seems unfair to me......I have seen a vet bitten badly in the face cause she allowed a pushy client to restrain her own dog instead of me........I know that dog would not have bitten her if I held it so I can see the other side of the restraint argument.


I can only speak of my experience. I handle my dogs. When I don't, sometimes people get hurt, so that's just the way it is for me.

I don't have any experience as a tech, so I can't speak about how a tech should properly approach a situation. My wife is a tech and restrains customer's dogs all day every day. She takes the snarky pet dogs because they don't bother her and she knows how to stay safe. She worked at a military vet for years, and handlers always handle their own dogs. She won't touch them without a muzzle on and the handler in good position until she really knows the dog well.


Every single post of mine referenced that this is how I do it, and if you have another way that works, that's great. I'm not going to tell people what they should do with their dogs and their vet. Too many variables. I'm just sharing my experience and what I do to keep everyone, dog included, safe and as calm as possible. 

Some teenager fresh out of ABC online school is not going to handle my dogs. If an obviously experienced tech wants to discuss taking the muzzle off or doing some handling with the dog, I'm totally acceptable to the idea and will work with them, just like my MIL tech Staci. Fama used to hang out with her and watch TV.

Just like anything else, handling a dog for examination takes work IMO. You don't just take the dog to the vet and hope for the best. It takes about 5 minutes to train someone to handle an aggressive dog safely in the vet's office. I train medics to do it all the time. Once they know how to safely restrain the dog and practice it a few times, they are far better off. If a pet owner wants to know this information, all they have to do is look it up or ask. I would expect any responsible pet owner to do this.

If an owner is too lazy to acquire the knowledge to properly handle their dog, than the tech should handle the dog. If the owner is irresponsible enough to forgo acquiring and practicing this information, I doubt they have done the work necessary to make good decisions about a vet or tech anyways, so they should probably just go with the flow and find people that they are comfortable with handling their dogs and making decisions for them.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

sparra said:


> That's a real shame.....I have had the opposite experience......I can't think of many I worked with who weren't excellent at restraint......


Well, your experience is far different than mine.

As always, YMMV


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Well, your experience is far different than mine.
> 
> As always, YMMV


What is YMMV......


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'll Google that for you....


Your Mileage May Vary

Urban Dictionary: YMMV



> Literally means "Your mileage may vary" but is often used in forum talk meaning that your results will vary
> "There is a great sale going on at the store, most under $10, but YMMV"


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks.......obviously not up with all the forum talk yet......


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

He is totally stinking adorable!!!!!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

sparra said:


> Some of these threads seem to imply that unless you find a vet who will let new clients restrain their own animals then look elsewhere.......that kind of argument seems unfair to me......I have seen a vet bitten badly in the face cause she allowed a pushy client to restrain her own dog instead of me........I know that dog would not have bitten her if I held it so I can see the other side of the restraint argument.


From that viewpoint, I'd have to say that I think it would be the vets call - the vet should be able to see if the dog is better or worse with the owner restraining it. I know IME, with all my dogs and their assorted vets, I've always been encouraged to help. But maybe it's also got to do with the changing ways of vet clinics?

In the 'olden days' the clinics weren't so fully staffed as they are today. You'd go into a room with your dog and wait for the vet to come in. You'd never hand the leash over to anyone, and rarely saw anyone other than the receptionist and the vet. 

I do make a point of teaching my dogs passive submission, like my puppy and the "squish" where I'd gently immobilize him. This was a huge asset when it came to him needing his anal glands expressed - the vet said he visibly relaxed when I held him for these procedures. I'm sure it made her job easier, since she thanked me for helping. If someone doesn't know what they're doing, it's always best to let a professional take care of things though.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jedi'sMom said:


> We are trying to do all of those things. He loves belly rubs and already knows the roll over command thanks to my teenage stepdaughter. We practice being touched all over at his class and the trainers do it as well. But he does not want to be restrained or held down.
> 
> And just so you can see how stinkin' adorable he is...


Oh, yeah. I can totally see how this dog would be terrifying.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I can see it too - with ears like that, I'd worry about having my kneecap kicked to smithereens! 

JK, OP! He's adorable, and I love his ears!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sparra said:


> It is perfectly understandable that you would handle your own dogs at the vet David......the average Joe doesn't have PPD dogs nor do they have your experience handling dogs.
> Some of these threads seem to imply that unless you find a vet who will let new clients restrain their own animals then look elsewhere.......that kind of argument seems unfair to me......I have seen a vet bitten badly in the face cause she allowed a pushy client to restrain her own dog instead of me........I know that dog would not have bitten her if I held it so I can see the other side of the restraint argument.


A really good vet knows her clients. My vet has me hold our dogs down but will call in techs with other people. When we took Tasha to the vet I brought my husband because he handles her better than I do. (she is a rescue has had issues with other vets) Our vet had my husband hold Tasha, with her me and techs standing by in case he needed help. We thought we might need to muzzle her, but the combo with my husband handling her and our vet being super gentle and friendly worked and she did amazing. Have I mentioned how much I respect and appreciate my vet? She is awesome!!!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> It is NOT a recipe for disaster. A dog with good nerve should be able to handle restraint while having its temperature taken or a shot. No problem. A dog that freaked out for such simple things, I wouldn't give kennel space to. And, sometimes the owner's presence causes the dog to be even more freaked out. A dog that would be perfectly ok with what the people are doing, might react because its owner is in there so worried about how the dog is going to take this, that the dog is getting all kinds of bad vibes.
> 
> GSD owners have theirselves to blame when it comes to a nasty reputation at vets.


I would say what you consider to be good nerve and what I consider to be good nerve differ greatly... 
There are more and more people on here buying dogs from decent to upper echelon working lines. Some serious dogs in their blood lines with varying levels of sharpness and suspicion. If you think its a good idea for a stranger to get in the personal space of these types of dogs, restrain their heads while another stranger does something invasive or painful to the rearend then there is nothing further to talk about. Nor would I allow my puppy to be manhandled by a stranger. These are GSDs we are talking about not goldendoodles.

As to vets not allowing owners to restrain their dogs, find another one. I have never had a vet deny me that right.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> A dog that freaked out for such simple things, I wouldn't give kennel space to.


What a horrible attitude. Dogs get injured and get sick. What your statement implies is that a dog who is less then perfectly behaved, with a pedigree you can brag about, is unworthy of your time. I have spoken to and worked with some pretty top notch breeders and trainers, and most will take in rescues and rehomes without a thought. Only rarely have I heard someone say a dog is unworthy of a home or their time, and most good breeders actively promote rescue. If someone told me my rescue GSD wasn't worth their time, it would certainly be the last time I dealt with them. The few breeders I spoke to who had attitude about me rescuing would have never gotten my business and when I let other breeders know, they were shocked and appalled.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> A really good vet knows her clients. My vet has me hold our dogs down but will call in techs with other people. When we took Tasha to the vet I brought my husband because he handles her better than I do. (she is a rescue has had issues with other vets) Our vet had my husband hold Tasha, with her me and techs standing by in case he needed help. We thought we might need to muzzle her, but the combo with my husband handling her and our vet being super gentle and friendly worked and she did amazing. Have I mentioned how much I respect and appreciate my vet? She is awesome!!!


You can't know your clients if they are new........


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sparra said:


> You can't know your clients if they are new........


Well then thinking back she must have let me hold my dogs from the very beginning... Because any vet who would have a stranger pin and hold my dog down would not have been my vet. I would have walked out.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Valid points have been brought up by pretty much all. It is true that a "vet" could have had a number of clueless owners who can't control there dogs come to see them ...so they don't trust "owners".

But bottom line, is this dog/puppy was manhandled. I have never experienced that myself, had it happened to one of my dogs...I'd have walked!Don't see how you can expect good care if the vet has an "attitude" about you or your dog??


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Well then thinking back she must have let me hold my dogs from the very beginning... Because any vet who would have a stranger pin and hold my dog down would not have been my vet. I would have walked out.


I am talking generally not regarding the OP puppy.......I would probably have walked out too.....restraint doesn't mean holding and pinning .......but it does mean making sure you can prevent a bite if it were to occur.....most owners don't know how to do this.......and by most I don't mean the small percentage on a dogforum but the other millions of dog owners who visit vet clinics daily


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jedi'sMom said:


> Let me start off by saying that I have not seen any behavior in my 13 week male that looks anything like aggression. He is a puppy. He was very, very mouthy, which I expected as he comes from german Schutzhund champion working lines on his fathers side. If I even said that right, I'm new so forgive me if not. Anyway, his mouthiness has improved amazingly. He will make mouth contact is if he is on his side, back, or someone grabs over his head at his collar. However, he listens with a stern "no bite." And these are not blood drawing, hard bites. Sometimes there is no pressure applied at all. He is in a puppy class, loves people, greets all people and dogs with tail wagging, and I've never heard so much as a growl.
> 
> So FF to today, at his second vet check up.
> 
> ...



This is the OP. I just separated and bolded the interaction with the puppy. Two things we are not considering here, and that is, whether the puppy's owner perceived what was going on without bias, and the temperament of the puppy's owner. 

I am not suggesting the OP is lying. I know that sometimes there are nasty people at vet offices, I just haven't met them yet. But when our pet is there whining or freaking out about something, we may have a different perception of something than the person who is doing the holding, than an unbiased on-looker. 

As for the temperament of the owner, we know that the blood pressure is through the roof for hearing that the breed is an aggressive breed. Frankly, we shouldn't be all that surprised that a vet tech may be misinformed or biased by their interaction with the breed, which so many people here seem to feel bad behavior at the vet is expected. The breed does have natural aggression, and it is something to consider. But some people get hacked off when the vet lets them know their dog is overweight. Some people get hacked off when the vet tells them to use Science Diet, or that Raw feeding will cause the dog to have health problems. We do not really know if the OP is not actually over-reacting to a relatively benign situation, where the puppy showed that it isn't going to accept some handling. 

When one is trying to find little nuggets, sometimes you have to reposition the dog. 

When a puppy starts eating the hand of the vet tech, closing the mouth doesn't seem like the crime of the century. 

In fact, every time my vet checks my dogs' hearts, she closes their muzzle to listen. I have never seen this as manhandling. I don't think treats would work here. 

So now what we have is everyone saying "FIND A NEW VET!" 

Why? 

They held the dog down to do a berry check. The dog struggled and mouthed. They held the muzzle. Big hairy deal!

Oh, and they gave some unsolicited advice about the breed itself. Get him to classes, because this is an aggressive breed, and you have little kids. Well, yeah, I probably wouldn't feel warm and fuzzy about that, but since most of us dog get GSDs because of their ability to deter crime, or because we are in awe of their power and utility as police dogs and MWDs, I think it is pretty silly of us to get a bug up our butts when someone (at a vet clinic) tells us we need to train the dog because it is an aggressive breed.

Kudos to the vet tech for suggesting training on the puppy. Every vet appointment for 13 week old puppies should include encouragement for owners to train their puppies!

Get a new vet. The next one may not have a clue about the bajillion things that effect our breed, but if they do not restrain your puppy, and they do not tell you anything you might not want to hear, then they are are a great vet. Go to them!

There are reasons, good reasons to dump a vet. I just do not think this is one of them.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> So now what we have is everyone saying "FIND A NEW VET!"
> 
> Why?


Because she was obviously uncomfortable with the way the vet handled her dog. 

Right or wrong on the vets part that does not make for a good vet/owner relationship. 

It can be the most highly recommended vet in the world, if I don't like them, I'm leaving. No matter how many letters they have after their name.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Did you miss my reply to your post selzer?

I'm interested in your responses if you have the time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Because she was obviously uncomfortable with the way the vet handled her dog.
> 
> Right or wrong on the vets part that does not make for a good vet/owner relationship.
> 
> It can be the most highly recommended vet in the world, if I don't like them, I'm leaving. No matter how many letters they have after their name.


Yes! So agree with this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Since you asked my responses are in blue:



David Winners said:


> It is ironic to me how safety minded you are in most situations when dealing with potentially dangerous dogs, when concerning new arrivals, kids, dogs with bite history etc, but in a vet situation, you think having a person the dog has just met restrain the dog and stick something in it's butt is totally normal for the dog and should be handled well automatically.
> 
> How does that make sense at all? Well that bitch that I imported was 3.5 and possibly ready to whelp when I got her off the plane. I had never met her. I had to stick my hand in her crate and get a leash around her so she wouldn't rush out onto the busy highway and become dead. And I had to stick a thermometer up her bum to monitor her temperature to determine when she would whelp, as they did not give us any idea of when she had ovulated or was bred. So a total stranger has to restrain a dog, and invade their nether regions.
> 
> ...


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## Jedi'sMom (Apr 17, 2014)

selzer said:


> As for the temperament of the owner, we know that the blood pressure is through the roof for hearing that the breed is an aggressive breed.


My reaction was to the situation in total; not just this particular aspect. Her approach with me was with the insinuation that the puppy showed what she considered to be an (dangerous) aggressive nature. He mouthed at her hand when pinned. He will mouth at my hands during belly rubs on occasion, "no bite" stops him. And when I say he mouths/bites, keep in mind he is applying little to no pressure. 



selzer said:


> We do not really know if the OP is not actually over-reacting to a relatively benign situation, where the puppy showed that it isn't going to accept some handling.


I did not overreact. I handled myself with calmness and respect, as is my nature. I am not the type of person to show my ass. Even if I were, a small town animal hospital where I have a friend working would not be the place. I guess you will just have to take my word for that. I did not come on here screaming that I was changing vets. I wanted to know if this puppy's behavior could really be considered aggressive and what level off concern I should have with that information. 



selzer said:


> When a puppy starts eating the hand of the vet tech, closing the mouth doesn't seem like the crime of the century.


Perhaps my puppy responds better to a different technique. Maybe if he can learn not to mouth they can learn not to be so forceful. 



selzer said:


> I think it is pretty silly of us to get a bug up our butts when someone (at a vet clinic) tells us we need to train the dog because it is an aggressive breed.


I disagree. GSDs are also known to be amazing family pets. (g)People can have all the bias about the breed they want but I expect educated animal practitioners to treat each animal for it's own individual temperament. Don't come at me with the aggressive speech unless my puppy has shown a truly aggressive nature that warrants raising a red flag. He behaved with what I consider to be excellent obedience for a pup of his age, except for this incident. Hence my asking for tips on helping him not be bothered by being pinned and forcefully grabbed at the muzzle. Perhaps they need to be a little less forceful and he needs to be a little less worried about being on his back/side. I'm not saying it's all roses and butterflies that my puppy mouths a vet tech. 



selzer said:


> Kudos to the vet tech for suggesting training on the puppy.


She did not suggest training because all puppies need training; she suggested training because my puppy would end up dangerous otherwise. Trying to convey her posture and presentation is impossible on a forum. My training is in people behavior and I can say without a doubt her suggestions were specific to the situation. There is no doubt in my mind that a lab acting in the exact same manner would have walked away without any warnings. Perhaps she could have been more acute when he was aptly following commands during all other aspects of his checkup. 

So again I ask, 
*Is his reaction aggressive? I've been working on touching him all over etc. He does fine usually and is getting better all the time. Not sure what I should be doing differently, if anything.*


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't think your pup was aggressive, but he could very well be, when he gets older. Many GSDs are vet aggressive, especially if they have experienced lots of pain there on a regular basis. 

This can be resolved with a muzzle. I see zero problems with that. You muzzle your dog, things get done, no one gets hurt, and you move on.


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## Jedi'sMom (Apr 17, 2014)

So I muzzle him now? Is that what you are suggesting?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Not aggressive, just a puppy being a puppy.

I do not approve of teeth on skin, but I also disagree with forcing a dog down and manhandling it. My recommendation to find a new vet was based on that, and the attitude you were given about the breed.

My dogs are always muzzled at the vet, at least for the first few minutes. I have found that the muzzle puts peoples mind at ease and we all relax more. Be sure to condition your dog to a muzzle though. I have two types, an exam muzzle that holds the mouth shut and is made of canvas, and a metal basket muzzle that really hurts if the dog hits you with it but is awesome for allowing the dog to drink and pant.

Fair warning though, I have bruises all over my legs from Shadow smashing me with the basket muzzle. She caught me in the face with it one day and left a serious mark.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In the safety and security of your own home, getting your pup used to a crate -- even if you never intend to use one, because he may need to be in one when boarded or for a surgery at the vet, and getting him used to a muzzle is an excellent idea. 

I would not muzzle him at this point. If people are afraid of a 13 week old puppy, then they are in need of a change of careers. It would be far better to go and experience the office and environment when he is not scheduled for berry checks, probes, and shots, so that not all vet visits are predominantly unpleasant.

What I think the vet tech was saying, was that due to how the puppy reacted, this puppy could become a real problem if you do not train it properly. She's right. With the wrong leadership/management/training your puppy can be dangerous. I am sorry that you took offense to that. 

Everyone is an expert, and everyone wants for you to benefit from their expertise. Not every GSD puppy would have responded as yours did. That doesn't mean yours is defective. It doesn't even mean that yours is more likely to bite someone at the vet. It _may _mean that your pup will have trouble with some parts of the vet visit. 

So cheer up. A dog that is afraid of its own shadow is far more likely to nail someone in the waiting room or in the exam room from being startled. Your dog may be more likely to object to specific things, things that you can largely control and/or condition him to accept.


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## Jedi'sMom (Apr 17, 2014)

Thanks for the reply. He is crate trained. We are working on him accepting lying on his side and allowing his muzzle closed. It's not his favorite, but he does it even for the kids. He is a great puppy, in my limited puppy experience, having only had 2 others of different breeds. Thanks to the toddler tossing him food, our newest issue is begging at the table


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Jedi'sMom said:


> The vet and tech forced him to his side and held him down while trying to palpate his groin. He starting whining and struggling to get up. He was biting the vet tech's hand. She then grabbed his muzzle and squeezed it shut, at which point he became frantic and whining and wanting up even more.


This is why i NEVER let the vet or tech hold my dogs. I know my dogs - they do not.

You did nothing wrong. Personally, I would switch vets or at least tell them next time YOU will hold the dog.


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