# Kira frightened of all dogs, puppies too



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Today, we started Kira on a second round of puppy beginner class. We just completed 5 weeks of puppy beginner, but since she's only just turned 4 months, I thought it would be a good idea to continue puppy until 6 months.

Today was the first class with different puppies. All the puppies were 4 months or younger.
In her class were everything from Pugs, Boxers, Rotties and Dobermans. Size wise, she was right there with the larger breed puppies.
Prior to the instruction, the puppies were allowed to socialize. They were all introduced on leash, but as soon as she was taken off leash, all the puppies frolicked, and Kira ran with her tail between her legs. SHe sought cover under chairs, ran through an open door into the bathroom, and ONLY attempted t play with the little pug. However, every time the pug went near the larger puppy, Kira backed off, and ran to hide. The trainer suggested we allow her to work herself through it, and not do anything.

A few weeks ago, Kira was pinned by an adult GSD in a dog park, even though we weren't attending the park, just walking through it on leash to access a different area. The dog was supposed to be leashed, but obviously wasn't.

Whats the best way to approach this fear?

Another note... If I'm waking with Kira, and she see another dog, her hackles are all raised, and she barks, with what appears to be aggressive, but obviously out of fear.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Is there one dog you could get Kira with for some play? One puppy about her size that she could have a good experience with?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Poor baby. I'd keep her out of the puppy free-for-all for the time being. I don't agree with sensory "flooding" and letting a dog just work it out on their own. I would kinda start back with square one with socialization, maybe letting her meet with one mild-tempered, calm dog on leash and working from there. Always pushing up against her comfort zone but not terrifying her. 

You might actually do better with a calm, adult dog instead of another pup who's going to jump all over her.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

Emoore said:


> You might actually do better with a calm, adult dog instead of another pup who's going to jump all over her.


Thanks, you wrote what I meant if I'd have been thinking better!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have not been fond of classes where the puppies all frolicked

Have you considered just not doing the puppy free for all and just letting her be neutral and get comfortable with the other puppies that way. Personally I would work with her at her comfort distance and no closer and slowly try to bring that in closer to the other dogs. 

She is probably young enough to recover from the incident - any chance she could socialize with some really stable adult dogs? I think they are better teachers than other puppies.

----

Well we all cross posted and it seems like we are saying the same thing.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'll try to answer all questions.

For starters, her "on leash" reaction is much different.

This afternoon, we were walking in a local park, and we came across a Bassethound. The dog was a 7 year old stable dog. Kira barked and growled, but the owner of the Bassethound insisted that I socialize, and approached with his dog.
Kira sniffed, and within seconds, was playing with this dog.
Another example, there's a white husky around the corner from home. Again.... On-leash, she's fine.
My wife could sit and talk to the owner,and Kira would just sit there as if the other dog wasn't there.

As far as frolicking in class..... Since the "incident", I've been keeping her out of puppy playtime, because the other dogs were all larger, and 2 months older. However, she's been OK with close contact with all the other dogs during the past 5 weeks, including a 6 month old 95lb GSD. She didn't give any indication that she would react the way she did tonight.

I felt so bad for her. She was so nervous.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my pup ran under a chair or table a lot
in puppy class. sometimes other dogs
would go under the chair and continue to play
with my pup. the instructor said let them
play under the chair for a minute and then
remove the dogs. we placed the dogs in the middle of the
floor and before long my pup was under a chair. it was a 6 week
class. by the 5th week my pup no longer ran under the chair.
during the week the people in the class got together
with their pups. we didn't wait untill Saturday for the pups to get together. i made sure my pup was around dogs, cats,
birds (household and flocks in the woods) and horses.
exposure is one of the keys on the ring.


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## Rahrah (Oct 30, 2011)

Our 12 week old puppy got attacked today by a English Staffy.  It was an unprovoked attack (Staffy wasn't restrained came running straight over and before I could pick my puppy up, was attacking her). She has broken skin on her back hind leg. Makes me so angry...as this was our week of positive puppy and friendly adult dog socialization. I hope no damage mentally has been done. I'm going to try and move on and get her around other friendly dogs ASAP. 

Hope your girl gets over her fear.


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## plusdoegsd (Nov 15, 2010)

if kira is 4 months right now be very careful about allowing kira to be frightened by any dogs because the 16th week is the fear imprinting cycle just ease her through the next few weeks gently any then slowly at a pace comfortable for her reintroduce play and socialization.good luck


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I tend to not like the puppy free for alls at classes either

Most have heard this story but i'll repeat...Took Masi to a puppy class when she was around Kira's age..There were not just puppies but little bit older dogs as well. Masi would gravitate towards the smaller dogs as well, probably because she had been with papillons (my sisters) on a daily basis was used to smaller dogs.

Anyhow, the free for alls for masi were NOT a good thing, she was rather bullied, and yes it kinda scared her..Trainer said the same thing "let em work it out",,so stupid me who should know better, attempted that,,it wasn't working.

During this 'class' the owners of a particular golden (larger puppy), was dog stupid, she'd let the dog "jump" Masi continuously, we'd move away, Masi would mind her own business but always seemed to be a 'target'..

I was NOT impressed with the lack of 'control' the trainer had over this class..By the time our 3rd class was over, I had to practically drag Masi in the building,,as well as, previously my once "I LOVE EVERYONE and was FINE with any dog/puppy",,was now becoming QUITE defensive towards ANY dog she didn't know..

I dropped the class,,started working on deprograming , but I'll tell you, to THIS day, Masi does NOT like golden retreivers AT ALL, and honestly is not good with strange dogs in her face...She will tolerate any dogs presence, but stare at her, charge her, zero in on her and all bets are off(

My suggestions, forget the free for all, get her around stable easy going dogs, like the bassett you ran into,,Don't let other dogs 'bully' her or scare the heck out of her( These dogs do NOT forget


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

On the other hand...we were in a puppy class with 5 other pups all under 4 mos old. One female gsd was terrified of the others when she was off leash- she ran into an empty crate and cringed. There was play time for a few minutes throughout the class time and by the 3rd week she was less afraid and by the end of the class she was running and playing and completely comfortable with the other pups. She would even come over to us and initiate play. So it worked out great for her, hopefully Kira can find a friend or two she can play with


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm wondering if having our small Maltese at home has anything to do with this.

She plays with Coconut on a regular basis, and submits to her. She'll lay on the floor, and soft mouth Coconut, while Coconut growls and mouths her all over her face.
She allows Coconut to do whatever she wants to do. It's amazing, if anything.

Maybe that's why she gravitated towards to puppy pug at class.

I'm going to the dog park this morning (leaving Kira at home) ,and I'm gonna see if there are any puppy owners there. Maybe I could exchange a few numbers, and make some exclusive time for Kira.
I'm sure a concerning dog owner would understand, and be willing to help me with this one.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I tend to not like the puppy free for alls at classes either
> 
> Most have heard this story but i'll repeat...Took Masi to a puppy class when she was around Kira's age..There were not just puppies but little bit older dogs as well. Masi would gravitate towards the smaller dogs as well, probably because she had been with papillons (my sisters) on a daily basis was used to smaller dogs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this.

What's funny about Kira, is that she'll walk in class as if she owns the place. Head high, chest out. As soon as she sees another dog, shackles up along her entire back, and a rapid bark towards whatever dog she sees.
If that dog makes any move towards our direction, she runs behind me.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm thinking Kira likes the small dogs to because of coconut ,,I think that's why Masi gravitates towards small dogs because of my sister's paps (who beat her up all the time but she loves it!)

I'm sure Kira right now with that behavior is unsure about the other dogs that she isn't familiar with, I'd definately see if you can get together with one or two mild mannered dogs that she can feel comfortable with


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Anthony hopefully you can figure this out. I'm also having a similar issue with Isis. ever since she came home she has been afraid of other dogs, tail in between legs and scared, but once she sniffs them out she is ok and will just play. Our breeder does our training classes and she does not let them socialize before class. Only after class. There are a few of her littermates and some older dogs. She has so much fun...At times she will get too rough, and so will her brothers/sisters, but we quickly correct her and than let her play again. But when on the street with other dogs its another story. Last week we were taking a walk through a trail during the day...Isis was on leash and as I was putting on my daughters hat, I almost fell over to what sounded like heavy hooves!! I turn around completely scared out of my pants to see two huge australian shepherds racing towards us! Isis nearly crapped herself, jumped into the stroller quivering, hackles up, growling like I have never seen her growl and shaking! I was super pissed! Of course no owner to be found....about 10 min (literally) later a lady comes prancing around the corner with a huge camera. I told her that her dogs scared us to death and my pup is petrified....her response was that her dogs are friendly! I was so mad, but had my kids so held back. What we found that helped was keeping her in that situation for a little bit, and once the dogs calmed down she came out.....I think if I would have left immediately she would have been scared from then on out. 

My sister in law's bf also has a 16 or 17 week old rottweiler and Isis and her love to play! Now when they come over they bring my sister in laws yorkie who is around 7. Isis cannot stand him, and hackles go up and attack mode kicks in. I have no clue why....Isis socialized with a smaller dog around here no problem. But my sister in laws she does not like. And her dog is quiet and calm. I'm at a loss like you!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Stosh LOVES having friends over to play- they wrestle and run and jump in the kiddie pool. Maybe Kira would be more comfortable playing at home. You're a good dad!


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## GSD84 (Apr 27, 2011)

Stosh said:


> Stosh LOVES having friends over to play- they wrestle and run and jump in the kiddie pool. Maybe Kira would be more comfortable playing at home. You're a good dad!


I should have mentioned that our "playdates" are usually at home....we just let them off leash in the backyard, as its closed in....I think she feels more comfortable knowing its taking place in her enviornment.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

It definitely sounds like confidence building exercise. The first time I took Alice to her puppy class they had one of those puppy play times and she freaked. Kinda took me aback for a moment. I didn't have friends with pups or even calm stable dogs at the time; so I enrolled her in daycare once a week for about four and a half hours. It worked for me.

She was also packed up on at a dog park when she was about five months old by seven "husky mixes"....Honestly, I'm glad that I was on the small dog side with Zoey, and Gar with with her on the bigger dog side. We learned a valuable lesson on "gauging the pack inside before entering" on that one.
(Rescue group, two humans, seven dogs----that looked suspiciously like hybrids with serious predatory packing behavior----we called the city on that one)
Letting dogs work it out is ok with me, however letting larger dogs or even dogs the same size or smaller (ever watch a cairn terrier in action?) dog bully and completely dominante another dog is NOT "working it out" and can lead to some serious issues.
Alice is fine with other dogs now, she even is best friends with a male English Bulldog (and lord knows how many dogs don't get along with them)


My boss will evaluate a dog and place it suited to it's behavior. He did a golden today that was fine with his ACD (smaller dog), yet when he brought out his Lab/Mastiff the poor thing fell over and peed. My boss came back into the room after putting his dogs outside and asked the owners if she had ever been attacked by another dog. The answer was yes, a larger golden put several holes in her as a puppy. 
My boss accepted this dog but will place her in the small dogs to build her confidence. We hope that she will eventually move up the larger dogs, but he doesn't want to have a dog that fearful of dogs her own size in a group of them---that's dangerous and detrimental for the dog. The move is slow, and procedes at the dog's pace, not the owners or our wishes.

Good luck Anthony! 
This is good stuff:


> JakodaCD OAI'm thinking Kira likes the small dogs to because of coconut ,,I think that's why Masi gravitates towards small dogs because of my sister's paps (who beat her up all the time but she loves it!)
> 
> I'm sure Kira right now with that behavior is unsure about the other dogs that she isn't familiar with, I'd definately see if you can get together with one or two mild mannered dogs that she can feel comfortable with


Build that confidence slowly...don't do the "toss the kid in the pond" method of sink or swim....7 out 10 dogs fail that way. (not too sure what the odds of human kids is...probably pretty close to the same *wink*)


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Kira's obedience school had an agility run at a local park today. There must have been 100+ dogs there, and it was a good opportunity to have Kira mingle, and just spend a day surrounded by balanced and stable dogs.
Kira's trainers were there, and knowing her situation, seized every moment to bring over a "puppy friendly" dog to have Kira gain some confidence.
They did not allow puppy play.
I then sat in the middle of all the action, and let all the dogs walk by one by one. In the beginning, Kira would bark at the passing dogs. The trainer corrected her, and in a matter of minutes, Kira was laying on the grass, just taking it all in.

THEN a german shepherd passed by, and she ran for cover. This was obvious proof that the dog that attacked her, left her mark on Kira's confidence.
The GSD was a 7 yr old well trained show line, and she allowed Kira to get close at her own pace. A few sniffs is all Kira would offer.

To be continued....


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Well that certainly was enlightening! Sounds like a great opportunity for both of you. What's funny is that the gsds in our training club seem to naturally gravitate towards each other. At least she gave a few sniffs


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Like I said, these dogs don't forget which can be a good thing and well a not so great thing

Masi always gravitates towards small dogs, she is great with them,,but those goldens, doesn't matter the size, "friends" just ain't gonna happen


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## baldemar (Nov 21, 2006)

Puppy frolicking is an AKC thing. At our Schutzhund club if a new puppy is brought out to socialize with the people and is afraid the handler crouches down and chest holds the puppy while doing a firm and long stroke from the head to the tail... speaking quietly... same thing if the puppy or young dog sees a larger dog and they show fear as in hackles going up or barking with hackles up. Dogs pick up from our reactions too. A cardinal rule is to never let a larger or older dog dominate your puppy. Your puppy/dog will also look to you to see what your reaction is. GOOD LUCK


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

baldemar said:


> Puppy frolicking is an AKC thing. At our Schutzhund club if a new puppy is brought out to socialize with the people and is afraid the handler crouches down and chest holds the puppy while doing a firm and long stroke from the head to the tail... speaking quietly... same thing if the puppy or young dog sees a larger dog and they show fear as in hackles going up or barking with hackles up. Dogs pick up from our reactions too. A *cardinal rule is to never let a larger or older dog dominate your puppy.* Your puppy/dog will also look to you to see what your reaction is. GOOD LUCK


Your information is very interesting.

Kira's bloodline is 100% Shutzhund, and if she were with her breeder, I'm sure he would handle it your way.

Here's my interesting question:

We have a 6 year old Maltese, and Kira lets her dominate her. The maltese was here obviously before her, and is much smaller. Kira plays with her, as if sh were a cat.

Could the fact that ira lets the little one dominate her, have anything to do with her overall ability to handle her fear with larger dogs?

As a matter of fact, I called her breeder today to get his response. He invited me to bring her up to the kennel, and he said he "fix her" 1-2-3. If this situation doesn't fix itself, I may take him up on it.
Her breeder has extensive training with his dogs, and i trust that he knows how to handle his pups. I'll. let this play out for a few weeks, and see what happens


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I managed to get together with another member of Kira's obedience class. He has a 5 month Rottie.
We introduced them through a wired fence for about 10 minutes. When they were both relaxed, we put them in a fenced play area about 30x50 feet. The rottie wanted to play, and Kira was running for her life, yelping as if she was being mauled. The rottie would catch up to her to play, and Kira would do her best to run and hide somewhere. After a couple minutes, I entered the picture with a bag of treats, and put them both through whatever they both learned in class. I had them side by side doing sit, stay, down, etc.. They were able to be near each other, as long as the other pup didn't want to play.
Then, after a few more minutes, the rottie decided it was playtime. This time, Kira started snapping back at the rottie, and attempted to back him off.
At that point, I really didn't know what to do. She was showing teeth, and snapping, but not running and yelping anymore.
I let them play that way for about five minutes. It got to a point where the rottie started to back off.
I considered this progress.
Your opinion may differ.

I'd like your interpretation of what took place in the pen.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think she was scared out of her gourd and figured she was on her own and had to defend herself and the rottie read it properly.

Why does she need to play? They were doing obedience next to each other just fine.What about being around other adults who can help her mature her dog skills, and doing her playing with you.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I tend to agree with Nancy,,allowing the rottie to scare the heck out of her by chasing, may not be progress

The obedience YES, GREAT progress, and that's what I'd be doing,,

I don't care if my dogs don't like nor want to engage with other dogs,,they just have to TOLERATE them, as kira was,,being in close proximity no physical contact, 

Honestly, this type of thing is JUST what made Masi VERY VERY defensive towards strange dogs when she was younger..It took me quite awhile to deprogram that, and work towards her being "ok" with strange dogs and tolerating them within close physical proximity...I do NOT let her loose with strange dogs, She has her close doggie friends to play with, and ME, she's very content with that..

Maybe see if you can find a person with a SMALL dog that is tolerant and easy going.
Not necessarily another rambunctious puppy..

And I just want to add, I wouldn't take my dog back to the breeder to let him fix this 1 2 3...I don't know what he'd "do",,but I'd want to know FIRST, instead of getting there and having him throw her into a pack of BIG dogs that may scare the pants off her more..

Just my 2 cents


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

So far....

One person says, get a puppy pal her age and size to play with.
Another person says, let her play with adult stable dogs
Another person says, don't let her play until she gets past her fear.
And another says, calm her by petting and stroking her while she's agitated.

Where's Cesar Milan when you need him?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I tend to agree with Nancy,,allowing the rottie to scare the heck out of her by chasing, may not be progress
> 
> The obedience YES, GREAT progress, and that's what I'd be doing,,
> 
> ...


THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN!! 

As far as a smaller dog to play with... she has Coconut, our Maltese. She's content playing with her, but that's all she knows. If she sees anything bigger than a 5 lb little white dog, she's terrified.

I don't agree with dog parks, nor am I determined to have her play there. But at the same time, we do live in an area with lots of dog owners, and there will be lots of people crossing our paths with other dogs. Kira absolutely must be dog friendly.
A friend has a GSD about a year old. The dog was NEVER socialized with other dogs.
The owner can't even walk him down the street or park or beach, without constantly wrestling with him. 
It means a lot to me to have Kira able to exist with other dogs. I'm in school; with her, and I intend to get involved in some form of rally, agility or some form of group program.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cesar Milan would flood the puppy with other dogs. I have heard how the show is heavily edited and he does some scary stuff behind the scenes. You want Cesar you can have him. 

I made the same mistakes you are making and have a dog who is dog agressive. Not going there again. I can't fix her and just thank my stars she is bombproof with people and fine once she has accepted a new pack member at home.

As I recall a LOT of folks recommended the stable adult route not just one.

What she learned here is that she can intimidate the other dogs away with her teeth now. I honestly she think she needs a solid adult who will ignore her bluff and help her get past it before she gets old enough to completely lose the puppy pass.

------

My male, Grim - NEVER plays with other dogs but is dog NEUTRAL. He has had other fearful dogs snap at him and he just blows it off and does not react. They get to pushy (jump on his shoulders or take his toy) and he will give a swift and effective correction. You could not find in 100 years a dog with a better temperament than him nor a dog that knows how to use his body language to disarm another dog (Calming signals-Turid Rugaas). He can totally ignore other dogs as though they don't exist and that is perfectly fine. Actually I think better than play. That is the goal with Beau, too.

------

Coconut does not count as a good adult dog even though she is; she is an accepted member of the family.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I again agree with Nancy..whether it's a dog the size of coconut/ an adult that will just blow her off and ignore her..doesn't much matter..Since she IS afraid of the larger dogs, I'd probably 'go' with an adult who is going to put her on ignore , be calm, stable, and non reactive to her. 

I was suggesting a smaller strange dog with the above temperament, as sort of an experiment to see if she's not intimated by them..

Personally, I wouldn't pet her or baby her while she's in that aggitated / fear state, it can be 'reinforcing' in my opinion..I just would avoid getting her to that aggitated/fear state..


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I hope you'll understand that I come here, and ask questions to be educated. I respect and value each and every one of your opinions, and welcome them.
If I may not do things in a way that you expect, it's more so because I may be confused about the thought process.

I just want to take a moment and just say thank you for chiming in.
You guys have been my guiding light..... trust me 


Being a dog owner is easy.
Being a GOOD dog owner, is a lot of work, and could very difficult.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Is she ok with walking on a lead next to another dog? Since she was fine with the side by side obedience maybe just walk with another dog while you chat and pretend you're ignoring the dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well the thing is we are going to give different opinions and get emotional about them based on our own experiences....it is hard to sift through internet advice sometimes and hard to give because our perception of your pup is colored by what you write.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Stosh said:


> Is she ok with walking on a lead next to another dog? Since she was fine with the side by side obedience maybe just walk with another dog while you chat and pretend you're ignoring the dogs


She's OK in every way, around ANY dog. It's when the other dog approaches or attempts to play... She freaks out.
We can walk, sit together, train together, on or off leash. She's fine.
As soon as another dog enters "her space", she cries bloody murder!

About a mile from here, there'a a place called "Camp Bow Wow". (I'm sure you've heard of them) It's a dog day care center. It's a large facility designed to meet the needs of those that either have to work, or can't find the time to get their dogs their much needed exercise. 

I have no intention of putting her there, but I spoke to the owner about his approach to dealing with fearful pups, and he invited me to come spend some time with him. He said he has new pups and dogs come in every day, and 99% of his "camp" is under 6 months. I'd like to see how they handle shy pups.
Just curious.
I'm going there today


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Well the thing is we are going to give different opinions and get emotional about them based on our own experiences....it is hard to sift through internet advice sometimes and hard to give because our perception of your pup is colored by what you write.


I agree 100%.
I can only convey so much info into the internet, and people could easily misinterpret my information. I expect that.

Right now, I'm really fixated on the fear issue. This is a huge concern for me. I need to learn the proper way to handle this, and I need to do it now.
There are too many dogs around here, and when she's an adult, it wouldn't want to have a liability on my hands either.

FWIW.... Yesterday, I was walking along some local church grounds. The grounds are stunning, and the weather was real nice. I've had some personal issues to contend with, so I took some "me" time (no Kira). ALong the way, I see a young woman with a large GSD. Someone was walking by with a small dog, and her GSD went ballistic! She was dragged at least 20 feet, before her dog slowed down. The person she was barking at was petrified.

It exactly THAT, that I want to avoid.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Our trainer had given us a very good advise regarding fear- 

If your dog gets scared of (whatever it is) - hackles up, shows avoidance, do not say anything to them or pet them. All that it will do is confirming their fear, so act like nothing happens, keep walking or distract with toy/play. 

Zeus got bullied a lot by a golden retriever when he was a puppy, I made sure to avoid this g/r and his owner whenever we walked for a long time. One day, we were at the park where several dogs walked everyday, this g/r came charging at Zeus - it got very ugly. Zeus put him down so fast and the fight was over, the g/r never bothered him again. In fact the g/r stopped his bullying altogether. Zeus was a very stable neutral dog, he played and enjoyed other dog's company. But he's not in their face, kwim? He kept his distance.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Try not to convey your anxiety to Kira, she has enough already! I know it's hard but while you're working on this let her think that being around other dogs is a piece of cake and nothing to get her panties in a twist over. The trip to the day care is a good idea


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Stosh said:


> Try not to convey your anxiety to Kira, she has enough already! I know it's hard but while you're working on this let her think that being around other dogs is a piece of cake and nothing to get her panties in a twist over. The trip to the day care is a good idea


OH, yes. I know this. I would never show fear.
If anything, last night, I stayed away, while she worked through her playtime with the other pup.
When she barks at other dogs, hackles raised, I divert away, and correct. That seems to be working. She stops as soon as I correct her.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I had my pup get scared by an "attack" in puppy play time. Playing with other pups did not seem to work. She was a pup that sent out vibes that got her in trouble. Yours may be the same. I avoided trying to "fix" this by any further "play times" outside the home group.

We went to obedience classes and we spent lots of time around neutral dogs. We learned to also be neutral to other dogs as we all worked in some proximity of one another. There might be the occasional meet and greet of a few seconds. 

It took some maturing and training experience around neutral dogs to get her feeling confident with others. In her adulthood she was great with all pups. She had some dog "friends" but was never keen on just the random strange dog.

If your breeder can fix it, 1,2,3. I think that is super. If it were me, I would not be think about looking for a quick fix by risking further uncontrolled interactions. Good controlled experiences, training and maturity was what helped us.

These things happen. They can make an impression on a pup. Often our response is to want to hurry and fix it as we are not happy with is going on with our pup. The pup may not be in a position mentally or maturity wise to fix it quick. Sometimes things that only took a minute to make an impression can not be undone as quickly. The rush to repair can sometimes be deletrious.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree, and I'm not expecting to fix it 1 2 3. However, I do intend to pay close attention, and be careful not to ignore the warning signs of fear aggression.

There's a local dog park with 2 pens side by side, and separated only by a wired fence. One side is for a regular group of dogs that meet every night, the other is for puppies and shy dogs.
I passed through the park tonight, and let Kira sit in the smaller pen (alone), while the other dogs flocked in the larger pen. I fetched with her, and simply got her comfortable with having a bunch of dogs around her. After about 15 minutes, Kira wandered over to the fence, and started play barking with a few dogs on the other side of the fence. 
I engaged with all the dogs with treats, to make it a positive experience, then left.

Kira seemed to be a lot more relaxed.

As we were leaving, we must have walked past 6 dogs, and Kira ignored every one of them... Perfect  She was heeling, and paid attention to nothing but the fact that she should be walking straight ahead.
They were no more than 2 - 3 feet away.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think your approach today was very good.

I would be interested in what the puppy guy says he may have some helpful experience but if he is into flooding I would walk. .. it works for some dogs and is a disaster for others. I think it is slow going to build her confidence and certainly at this age keep it mellow.

Would love to hear about the experience at camp bow wow. This is a very common problem and despite all precautions, puppies sometimes get jumped.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Nancy, Thank you for the affirmation. I needed it. I'm doing the best I can.
I've made a firm decision that I WONT be engaging Kira in dog parks and or flooding. I'm going to work her from a distance, and just focus on socialization, but not necessarily, "running with the pack".
I have her in obedience school, and she'll get used to having dogs in her presence there, and I'll make it my business to attend all the agility runs, and rally's, and give Kira as much exposure to other dogs and people as possible.
What I liked most of all, was that I was able to get Kira's attention in that pen, to have her work on fetch and recall, along with all her other commands. She was very detached from all the commotion in the adjacent pen.

Camp Bow wow uses a "graduated approach" to introduce new pups or shy dogs. They evaluate, then put similar temperaments together, and work them into "the pack".


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think your approach was good..the 'fence' barrier probably made her feel more secure that she wasn't going to be chased, so no big deal,,WHICH IS GREAT!!! 

And it's GREAT that otherwise, she can just 'go with the flow' within close proximity, on leash, with other dogs..

She certainly has more GOOD going for her regarding this than 'bad'...(I'm probably not saying that right hey its early no coffee yet LOL)

I would also take up the Camp Bow wow thing, sounds like he has a good approach as well, and this could really help her..

Honestly, I don't think Kira will turn into that dog at the park) We sometimes just have to 'try' stuff, to see what works and what doesn't and I think your doing that

She's got alot going for her thats positive and this is just a little blip in the road that I think she'll overcome


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think if you want the dog to be neutral to all dogs you are well on your way
If you want the dog to play with others then it may be worth spending some time with the camp bow wow folks........sounds pretty good to me.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Sounds like she's doing really well- good job


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I want her to be more neutral. I don't want her getting too excited at the thought of playing with other dogs. At the same time, I would like to be able to walk her on or off leash in the woods, and not be concerned about a confrontation with another dog.
She should be able to "hold her own", but I don't want her to be the aggressor.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Are you in NJ? 

My pup (she's almost 10 months now though) was also a bit hesitant when other dogs would approach her but she seems to have grown out of it. Another thing I noticed is my pup is more iffy while on leash. Once her and the other dog is off leash and they are able to frolic around naturally, they have fun together.


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