# GSDCA approves WGSD breed separation application



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

While I have never supported breed separation for the WGSD and never will, I figured I should post this information.

The GSDCA Board of Directors, in their latest meeting held in Philadelphia, voted to allow the *WHITE COATED GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG* supporters to apply to the American Kennel Club to be recognized as a separate breed. The measure passed by one vote - 10 BOD members - 4 voted *yes*, 3 voted *no* and 3 *abstained*.


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

dont they considered them as "American White shepherd" now?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Wow... I never really thought that would happen.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

TriadGSD said:


> dont they considered them as "American White shepherd" now?


No, my message regards the AKC and the German Shepherd Dog Club of America.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I grew up with white German Shepherd Dogs, and they were awesome. Perfect ambassadors for the breed. 

So is this pretty much a "done deal?"


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

Please excuse my ignorance...but isn't the only difference the color? I thought there was no difference other than the color.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Soooo...what happens when colored GSD throws a white puppy? How will that puppy be registered as a separate breed with two GSD parents?


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

wow, they should have just added the color to the AKC, i mean chocolate labs were only added like 15 years ago? or so i thought. GSD is the same despite the coat.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

crisp said:


> Please excuse my ignorance...but isn't the only difference the color? I thought there was no difference other than the color.


I don't know, but Whites have a different "look" to me. Is the written standard for Whites in the UKC the same as it is for the GSD, except for color?

This is going to be interesting. I can see good arguments both for and against this move. Since I'm not involved with Whites, it doesn't really affect me, so I guess I'm neutral on the issue.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But it's ONLY COATED whites, correct?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> But it's ONLY COATED whites, correct?


NO ... it's about the GSD with a white coat ... not the length of the coat.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Freestep said:


> This is going to be interesting. I can see good arguments both for and against this move.


The biggest obstacle has been getting permission from the GSDCA to release the whites from the parent club so they can petition the AKC for separate breed status. If the GSDCA has done that, the rest shouldn't be too difficult.

Trying not to get too emotional about it until it happens but keeping my fingers crossed that it does.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

gagsd said:


> I grew up with white German Shepherd Dogs, and they were awesome. Perfect ambassadors for the breed.
> 
> So is this pretty much a "done deal?"


No, it's not a done deal. Many members of the Showgsd-l where I first read of the vote feel that AKC will reject the request for breed separation.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

crisp said:


> Please excuse my ignorance...but isn't the only difference the color? I thought there was no difference other than the color.


The only difference between a colored GSD and white GSD is the color. However, like the American line GSDs vs the German line GSDs, there are some structural differences in the dogs being bred between the WGSD clubs supporting breed separation and those that don't support it.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Once upon a time flat coated retrievers and golden retrievers were the same breed, I think. Quite a distinction in the breeds today.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Soooo...what happens when colored GSD throws a white puppy? How will that puppy be registered as a separate breed with two GSD parents?


I honestly don't know the answer. 

Some members of the list I belong to want to make future WGSDs ineligible for AKC registration ... I can't see AKC passing up the opportunity to make a buck by refusing to register an offspring of two registered dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

This explains the process. Article was written in 2007, I don't know if the process has changed. What's actually required to become a new breed is towards the bottom of the post. Article was written by Carmen Battaglia. (BOD w/GSDCA)

Creating A New Breed · by Dr. Carmen Battaglia


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Is the gene pool sufficient to separate? Is the color "fixed" within that gene pool, or will there be crop outs with color (since white masks color, I would think this owuld be common)...and how will they introduce new blood if they get bottlenecked?

Lee


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

arycrest said:


> there are some structural differences in the dogs being bred between the WGSD clubs supporting breed separation and those that don't support it.


So do the people who want separate breed status have a different standard in mind for the WGSD? If so, what do you think the standard would look like? Most Whites I've seen are large, leggy, flat-backed, and moderate in angulation. Is this the look the "separatists" are going for? Or do they want the GSD standard verbatim except for coat color? I don't think I've ever seen anything that looked like a showline GSD painted white, so I'm assuming they'd amend the standard somewhat to allow for what most WGSDs actually look like. 

I'm sincerely curious; I suppose if they want to be a truly separate breed, they will need to have a different standard, and there could be a lot of disagreement about this, to put it mildly.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> Is the gene pool sufficient to separate? Is the color "fixed" within that gene pool, or will there be crop outs with color (since white masks color, I would think this owuld be common)...and how will they introduce new blood if they get bottlenecked?
> 
> Lee


 IMHO, and that of the people who are opposed to breed separation, the gene pool is not sufficient. Those who are supporters of the separation feel it is. 

I don't know what happens when any breed gets bottlenecked. 

The color white is genetically fixed ... you can only get white coated GSDs when you breed white to white ... it's a recessive masking gene.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Freestep said:


> So do the people who want separate breed status have a different standard in mind for the WGSD? If so, what do you think the standard would look like? Most Whites I've seen are large, leggy, flat-backed, and moderate in angulation. Is this the look the "separatists" are going for? Or do they want the GSD standard verbatim except for coat color? I don't think I've ever seen anything that looked like a showline GSD painted white, so I'm assuming they'd amend the standard somewhat to allow for what most WGSDs actually look like.
> 
> I'm sincerely curious; I suppose if they want to be a truly separate breed, they will need to have a different standard, and there could be a lot of disagreement about this, to put it mildly.


I really can't answer that question. My guess would be that a breed standard for a WGSD separate breed would be similar to the one found in UKC or AWSA.

The people who oppose breed separation (members of the WGSDCA & WGSDCII) follow a breed standard similar to that of the GSDCA.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Is the gene pool sufficient to separate? Is the color "fixed" within that gene pool, or will there be crop outs with color (since white masks color, I would think this owuld be common)...and how will they introduce new blood if they get bottlenecked?
> 
> Lee


Lee, this is a link to an article written by Fred Lanting discussing the gene pool, tapping into the white blood lines in Europe (already a separate breed) and breed separation for the whites in the AKC. The actual website seems to be down at the moment, this is the cached version.
SiriusDog.com - The White Shepherd: International Dog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am on the fence with this. I think it would be better to just accept white as a color in the AKC standard. That way a colored dog could still be included in the event that the breed starts to take on some undesirable traits. They can make it a separate variety, as other breeds have done, and whites would be able to achieve championships even if most AKC judges are biased toward colored dogs. Color is so insignificant or should be. 

I may not have really studied on this though, and certainly not by the point of view of white fanciers. Does this open them up to European blood like Swiss Shepherds? It is rather confusing.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am on the fence with this. I think it would be better to just accept white as a color in the AKC standard. That way a colored dog could still be included in the event that the breed starts to take on some undesirable traits.


That's a really good point. I assume the WGSD gene pool is not large. IMO it would be a good thing for WGSD breeders to be able to bring in some new blood for temperament, structure, movement, or whatever (like they are probably doing now). By making WGSD a separate breed, they close the book on themselves.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

arycrest said:


> The color white is genetically fixed ... you can only get white coated GSDs when you breed white to white ... it's a recessive masking gene.


I've been told that some whites are actually genetically sable?? I really don't know tho.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> I've been told that some whites are actually genetically sable?? I really don't know tho.


White is a masking gene. In simple terms it covers (mask) another color. Take a sable dog, throw a white sheet over it...presto, white dog!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I'm sincerely curious; I suppose if they want to be a truly separate breed, they will need to have a different standard, and there could be a lot of disagreement about this, to put it mildly.


This is the AWSA breed standard. It's almost identical to the standard for the UKC among other registries and not much different than the AKC standard for the GSD.

AWSA White Shepherd Breed Standard

I don't know if the standard would be revised if breed status is granted but if so, I doubt it would change by much.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Maybe the AKC will accept them. More money sounds good.

I asked board members to consider a way those "faulty" coated dogs could enter on a level playing field.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

DunRingill said:


> I've been told that some whites are actually genetically sable?? I really don't know tho.


From what I've been told, the masked color can be sable, black, b/t or any other color found in the GSD breed.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The biggest obstacle has been getting permission from the GSDCA to release the whites from the parent club so they can petition the AKC for separate breed status. If the GSDCA has done that, the rest shouldn't be too difficult.


 On an e-mail listing, someone who was present during the meeting (along with the WGSDCII President) reported that even those who voted “yes” did so believing that the White Shepherd will not be accepted, because of the following rules (from the AKC website)



> The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards




Whiteshepherds, since you said the rest should not be too difficult, I would love to hear your personal views on this, and on why this wouldn't be as great of an obstacle. I will admit I am completely unfamiliar with the recognition of breeds by the AKC and would certainly like some insight!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think the whole idea to make WGSDs a seperate breed is silly and ridiculous. When I see a WGSD I see exactly that, a German Shepherd that is white. Someone who lives near me has a handsome WGSD. 

I see NOT difference except for coat color.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The problem is not that a White GSD is not a GSD. Of course they are. Issues arise because it is a disqualifying fault in the standard. 

We could make them a variety and the coaties, too.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I think the whole idea to make WGSDs a seperate breed is silly and ridiculous. When I see a WGSD I see exactly that, a German Shepherd that is white. Someone who lives near me has a handsome WGSD.
> 
> I see NOT difference except for coat color.


:thumbup:


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Samba said:


> The problem is not that a White GSD is not a GSD. Of course they are. Issues arise because it is a disqualifying fault in the standard.
> 
> We could make them a variety and the coaties, too.


The problem with this would be how long a dog show would take if we added them as a variety. The dog clubs would have to offer the same classes for each variety offered, and then Best of Breed would be among the Best of Variety winners (we do this in Dachshunds all of the time). However there is not the same number of Dachshunds being shown as GSD's. Also if we do it for whites, why not blues and livers? Why not just lift the disqulification and show them all as GSD's, period? I don't like that idea either. They were disqualified for a reason over 50 years ago.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> They were disqualified for a reason over 50 years ago.


And what reason was that?


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I'd like to know as well. There's a great deal of speculation, but I have yet to hear a reason backed with proof (I have heard theories about the Nazis, the white coat color blending in with the sheep, etc.). I am very curious about this!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Blues and livers would still be dysqualified due to a lack of black pigment. Whites are supposed to have black pigment. Making them their own variety would solve the issue of having whites born to colored parents and would allow whites to be bred to colored dogs to maintain a larger gene pool. Personally I could care less one way or the other, but from someone looking at this from the outside, this makes the most sense.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Blues and livers would still be dysqualified due to a lack of black pigment. Whites are supposed to have black pigment.


Ah, so it's a pigment thing.

Anyone want to speculate as to the reason why black pigment is required? Other working breeds--Dobies, Border Collies, etc. can have dilute pigment and it doesn't seem to affect their health, temperament, or working ability.

If it truly was the Nazi party that lobbied against white/dilute dogs, I wonder if we shouldn't revisit that.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> We could make them a variety and the coaties, too.


I've said this several times over the last couple days.

AKC is *no longer accepting varieties *of *already accepted breeds*. It is not possible to add white as a variety.

Whites were officially disqualified in 1968. I think the whole thing is stupid, and never should have been DQ'd in the first place.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Perhaps the AKC will change its rules on varieties. They sure took a leap I never thought they would....the inclusion of mixed breeds in companion events. The need for monies drives all.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Freestep said:


> Ah, so it's a pigment thing.
> 
> Anyone want to speculate as to the reason why black pigment is required? Other working breeds--Dobies, Border Collies, etc. can have dilute pigment and it doesn't seem to affect their health, temperament, or working ability.
> 
> If it truly was the Nazi party that lobbied against white/dilute dogs, I wonder if we shouldn't revisit that.


Not entirely true. The dilute dobies have skin problems, especially the blues and isabellas. And while I don't now of a problem with dilute colors in Border Collies, I also know that you see mostly black/white or tri's at the herding trials. Does it just work out that way or do they know something that we don't.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

If the AKC allows whites, then that will also hurt the status of the WDA with the SV. They SV may be tempted to give all rights to the GSD to the UScA.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Would the SV care about the reognition of the white dogs as a separate breed? They have not objected so far to what we Americans have done? The SV is a member of the FCI isn't it? The FCI recognizes the whites as Berger Blanc Suisse.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Rei said:


> Whiteshepherds, since you said the rest should not be too difficult, I would love to hear your personal views on this, and on why this wouldn't be as great of an obstacle. I will admit I am completely unfamiliar with the recognition of breeds by the AKC and would certainly like some insight!


 What this ends up meaning is that the breed can not be called White German Shepherd Dog. Or that's the way it went with Mini Aussies who are now or about to be introduced into FSS under a different name.



Andaka said:


> The problem with this would be how long a dog show would take if we added them as a variety.


 It wouldn't take any longer than if they were added as a separate breed. Would probably be easier as far as judges education goes, since all GSD approved judges would already have met the requirements. Varieties are judged separately, often at totally separate times/rings during. AKC is adding "new" breeds all the time but so far, dog shows don't seem to take drastically longer. But as Xeph said, AKC is no longer recognizing varieties. If the wGSD is recognized it will not be recognized as a German Shepherd of any sort. 




Samba said:


> Perhaps the AKC will change its rules on varieties. They sure took a leap I never thought they would....the inclusion of mixed breeds in companion events. The need for monies drives all.


 I don't see this happening, as it has been a rather recent decision. They don't get any more money for recognizing new varieties than they do for recognizing new breeds.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> I also know that you see mostly black/white or tri's at the herding trials. Does it just work out that way or do they know something that we don't.


Red (I think that's what they call the color) isn't very common in BC's, and I'm not even sure if it's an accepted color, but I have seen them working and they work just like a black & white BC.  

What about Kelpies? All the Kelpies I've ever seen are liver-colored, and they are amazing herding dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But shouldn't it be about the dogs? Which would be better for the dogs? I think it would be better for the dogs for them to be a new variety, and not a new breed. But who am I? I do not understand why the AKC would find it easier to manage more breeds than more varieties. 

They certainly do not mind blending performance sports like Rally and Obedience and create new classes and titles and confuse us all and make us all crazy. 

I think it would be interesting for them to have a working dog show class. In order to be eligible, you have to be a certified police dog/military dog in active service or an in service SAR dog, or be a leader dog for a blind person. Or maybe a titled dog class, to be eligible to be shown, you have to have at least one performance title, but that wouldn't include schutzhund as it is not AKC. I think it would be good press too, to have dogs at the shows competing in the conformation ring, that are doing the jobs they are bred to do.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> It wouldn't take any longer than if they were added as a separate breed. Would probably be easier as far as judges education goes, since all GSD approved judges would already have met the requirements. Varieties are judged separately, often at totally separate times/rings during. AKC is adding "new" breeds all the time but so far, dog shows don't seem to take drastically longer. But as Xeph said, AKC is no longer recognizing varieties. If the wGSD is recognized it will not be recognized as a German Shepherd of any sort.


I was thinking about specialty shows which would have to offer variety classes and therefore take longer.



> Would the SV care about the reognition of the white dogs as a separate breed? They have not objected so far to what we Americans have done? The SV is a member of the FCI isn't it? The FCI recognizes the whites as Berger Blanc Suisse.


Here agin I was thinking of problems with the white color as being a separate variety.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> Red (I think that's what they call the color) isn't very common in BC's, and I'm not even sure if it's an accepted color, but I have seen them working and they work just like a black & white BC.
> 
> What about Kelpies? All the Kelpies I've ever seen are liver-colored, and they are amazing herding dogs.


There are reds and blues. Blues look like Austrailian shepherds with tails. 

Lots of colors, actually, and markings:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/border_collie/color_markings.cfm


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would think that specialty clubs would be happy to have the added entry.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh that is confusing. I was thinking they were applying for separate breed status with the AKC. The issue being that AKC has stipulated a variety will not be recognized as a different breed. I really did not think they would be at specialty shows other than specialties for the white dogs. I guess I am confuzzeled!

The first post said GSDCA released them to apply for separate breed status with AKC. The would have their own ring and specialties if they were recognized as a separate breed.

If they do recognize them as a separate breed then they would get money for entries. Of course, this would be true if they were an added variety. But the GSDCA is not changing the standard, rather releasing the color enthusiasts to pursue breed status like the Berger Blanc Suisse.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Freestep said:


> Ah, so it's a pigment thing.
> 
> Anyone want to speculate as to the reason why black pigment is required? Other working breeds--Dobies, Border Collies, etc. can have dilute pigment and it doesn't seem to affect their health, temperament, or working ability.


Black pigment is part of the standard, black or strong pigment - maybe it is just the perception that dark = strong, light = weak....just a thought

In so far as dilutes - well documents that blue & fawn Dobies have skin problems

Lee


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Some specialty clubs will not give awards in companion events to GSDs with disqualifying faults.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How in the world can they be a seperate breed when it is possible for a reg color to throw a white GSD? 

Guess all the pups would be mongrels if you mated a white with a normal color GSD. So much for improving the gene pool.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Rei said:


> Whiteshepherds, since you said the rest should not be too difficult, I would love to hear your personal views on this, and on why this wouldn't be as great of an obstacle. I will admit I am completely unfamiliar with the recognition of breeds by the AKC and would certainly like some insight!


I'm an eternal optimist. 
By allowing the the white coated GSD supporters to apply to the AKC for separate breed status the GSDCA is acknowledging a shift in attitude. I see that as a good thing. Without the GSDCA granting permission for the white supporters to approach the AKC, nothing could move forward, now it can.

The requirements for entry into the FSS Miscellaneous Class were set in motion years ago by the breeders who supported the white coated shepherd. There is a registry, there are pedigrees going back at least 3 generations. (many go back much further) There is a documented history of the breed. There are foreign registries that already recognize the breed. I don't know if the standard would have to be rewritten but there is one. I think they can use the existing AWSA statistics for club membership, board of directors etc. but I'm not sure. These are some of the things that will be required by the FSS. There's more to it, that's just the basics. It's not a fast process from what I understand, but the whites have a good head start. I'm hopeful.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> How in the world can they be a seperate breed when it is possible for a reg color to throw a white GSD?


 
I haven't heard anything about the GSDCA taking whites out of the breed, only that those who want to pursue breed separation have the approval of the parent club. Unless the GSDCA eliminates whites from the breed the white coated dogs born to purebred GSD's would still be GSD's, not a mutt and not a new breed of dog.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Samba said:


> Oh that is confusing. I was thinking they were applying for separate breed status with the AKC. The issue being that AKC has stipulated a variety will not be recognized as a different breed. I really did not think they would be at specialty shows other than specialties for the white dogs. I guess I am confuzzeled!
> 
> The first post said GSDCA released them to apply for separate breed status with AKC. The would have their own ring and specialties if they were recognized as a separate breed.
> 
> If they do recognize them as a separate breed then they would get money for entries. Of course, this would be true if they were an added variety. But the GSDCA is not changing the standard, rather releasing the color enthusiasts to pursue breed status like the Berger Blanc Suisse.


You're correct ... the only thing done at the GSDCA BOD meeting was to grant the WGSD supporter who want breed status the opportunity to apply to the AKC as a separate breed. Nothing else was mentioned.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

codmaster said:


> How in the world can they be a seperate breed when it is possible for a reg color to throw a white GSD?
> 
> Guess all the pups would be mongrels if you mated a white with a normal color GSD. So much for improving the gene pool.


I know this one! Welcome to the world of AKC Belgians 

If wGSD split into a separate breed and one were to breed an AKC registered wGSD (or whatever they will be called) to an AKC registered GSD (of any color including white), the resulting offspring would not be eligible for registration. As far as registration went, that would be no different from a GSD bred to a collie. However, wGSDs which are born to AKC registered GSDs (of any color, including white) will continue to be eligible for registration and could be bred to other AKC registered GSDs (of any color, including white). Based on what has gone on with other breeds, I don't see AKC forcefully removing wGSDs from the GSD studbook. Owners of wGSD who want their dog registered as foundation for the separate wGSD breed would need to apply to have their dog's registration changed from GSD to the new FSS breed. So people who want to continue breeding wGSDs as AKC registered GSDs should be able to do so but as always, their dogs will have a DQ fault. 

You can get an idea of how this plays out by checking out what is going on with the Mini Aussies. There situation is a bit different as the Aussie parent club and AKC initiated the split but still can give an idea: AKC Updates


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If the smaller Aussies can get seperate breed status, I don't see why the White GSD could not? What constitutes a variety? Those minis look to me to be of the small variety!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Samba said:


> If the smaller Aussies can get seperate breed status, I don't see why the White GSD could not? What constitutes a variety? Those minis look to me to be of the small variety!


Probably because they are not a seperate and distinct breed from the normally colored GSD's - just a disqualifying coat color fault according to the GSD standard. 

If you breed two regular sized Aussies, can you get a mini?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Samba said:


> If the smaller Aussies can get seperate breed status, I don't see why the White GSD could not? What constitutes a variety? Those minis look to me to be of the small variety!


 I think if the wGSD people go through the steps of recognition into FSS it's pretty likely they will get accepted as a separate breed with a different name. There will still be AKC registered GSDs with the DQ fault of being white.

Varieties are dogs which are of the same breed with different appearances. They are judged separately with a separate point system but by the same standard. Varieties can be born in together in the same litter and can be interbred. They share a parent club and National specificity. Rough and Smooth Collies are varieties. Toy, Mini and Standard Poodles are varieties. Belgians are varieties most everywhere except the US but plenty of AKC registered Belgians have multi-varitiey pedigrees due to intervariety breeding outside of the US. Such breedings are not permitted by AKC if they occur in the US but they will register dogs that result from IV breedings. I've actually known of littermates being imported and registered as separate breeds (two as Tervs and one as a Belgian Sheepdog). However, IV breeding of them in the US can produce puppies eligible for registration. More than one variety can be born into the same litter, even if both parents are the same variety. For example, breeding black to black doesn't guarantee you'll get all black puppies. Any resulting brown puppies in such a litter must be registered as Belgian Sheepdogs but have a color DQ, so can not be shown in conformation. They can be bred to other AKC registered Belgian Sheepdogs though and such a litter will produce brown and black puppies, of which the black could be shown. AKC registered brown Belgian Sheepdogs are not distinguishable in any way from AKC registered Belgian Tervuren but can not be shown in conformation. 

I don't really agree with AKC's choice to no longer recognize varieties, as I think it can harm the diversity of breeds in the long run because so many people put such emphasis on a CH. With Collies, there are so fewer Smooths that having to compete against Roughs would result in far fewer Smooth CHs. It would be extremely likely that mediocre Roughs would often win over very nice Smooths because Roughs have more appeal as a show dog. Over time, this could result in fewer and fewer litters of Smooths and Smooths becoming undesirable in the eyes of many. I suspect AKC's reasoning has to do with if dogs are the same breed, they should all compete for the same points. Fewer CHs each year that way, which brings in more entry money.

It would be the same with wGSD if they were just included into the standard as an acceptable color. It would be extremely hard to find judges willing to put them up. Having them compete against the more "traditional" GSD colors would mean competing on the same point scale, which requires a lot of dogs for a major. You wouldn't be kicked out of the ring but it would be extremely difficult to finish a wGSD anyway. That's not really even up for discussion though because it doesn't seem like GSDCA would entertain the idea of making them an accepted color. And there is no possibility of them being recognized as a GSD variety with same breed, same parent club but different point schedule. Even if GSDCA would go for it, AKC would not.



codmaster said:


> Probably because they are not a seperate and distinct breed from the normally colored GSD's - just a disqualifying coat color fault according to the GSD standard.
> 
> If you breed two regular sized Aussies, can you get a mini?


 Yes, you can get an Aussie which meets the breed standard for a Mini from two standard sized parents. The Aussie clubs (both the original and the AKC) have never supported allowing them as a size variation of the Aussie breed though.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

So it looks to me that the AKC says a variety can not be considered for separate breed status. For instance, the AOAC Shelties could not break off into a breed.

But, the Mini Aussie is not a variety, so it can establish. The WGSD is not a variety, so it can establish also.


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## Two (Jul 18, 2011)

Didn't think this would ever happen.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The times, they are a changin'.

FCI has them as a breed. It is not unprecedented. The AKC keeps expanding its inclusion of breeds.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Perhaps it is long overdue. If white shepherds were disqualified since 1968, and I can attest that that is indeed a lifetime, many life times of dogs. Well, they are not going anywhere. Breeders are not culling them, and people like them so much that they are breeding exclusively for the color. 

I guess it will only tick me off if the put them in the working group instead of the herding group.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Going back to the late 70's and early 80's letters were sent to both the AKC and the GSDCA requesting that the German Shepherds born with white coats be allowed to show in AKC shows as a variety of the breed. The AKC replied that the breed Standard as written, submitted and approved by the GSDCA would have to be amended to allow variety classes for GSD's with white coats. The conflict went on for decades at that point with most of the US breeders of whites hoping that would be the future. Canada did open their rings for whites within the same rings as GSD's and there were several WGSD's who completed their championship over Standard colors. However it didn't move very fast. Exported dogs to Sweden, Holland Germany and such began being shown under international rules as a separate breed... as the Swiss Shepherd. There was a very high incidence of long coated whites within that gene pool abroad, and most of the dogs now being shown as Swiss Shepherds are coats. 
This issue would still remain if whites became a separate AKC breed as to the status and future of whites born to standard color parents. (and yes there are still AKC dogs who carry the recessive.) This concerns me a great deal as a majority of the dogs being shown (and winning) in the US are from a very small genetic group back 4-5 generations.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> and there were several WGSD's who completed their championship over Standard colors.


And what dogs where they? My understanding was that several dogs got points, but none managed to get enough to finish their championship.


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## MelanieF (Aug 18, 2011)

*Opinion from SV regarding White Shepherds/Berger Blanc Suisse*

This will be a little lengthy, but for those of you who are interested, below is a copy of a letter sent to the SV, and their response. 

************* Email to SV
*************************************************************************************************************************************
--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Melanie Fuellgraf <[email protected]> wrote:


From: Melanie Fuellgraf <[email protected]>
Subject: Request for opinion Berger Blanc Suisse/ White Shepherd
To: "Sabine Leib" <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 2010, 12:11 PM


Hello Sabine Leib, 

My name is Melanie Fuellgraf. I am a citizen of the USA and a member of the American White Shepherd Association (AWSA) and a member of the German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA). 

For over fourteen years AWSA has been trying to establish the White Shepherd as a separate breed within the American Kennel Club (AKC). Within the AKC, the breed standard for the German Shepherd Dog is owned by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America. The white coated GSD’s are permitted to be registered as AKC GSD’s , although the white coat is a disqualifying fault according to the GSDCA standard. 

In our communications with the AKC regarding the establishment of a separate breed, we have been asked to obtain a statement from the German Shepherd Dog Club of America that it would not object to the establishment of the White Shepherd (Berger Blanc Suisse) as a distinct AKC breed. 

We have been attending board meetings of the GSDCA and have petitioned the GSDCA membership to request the board to draft a letter to the AKC stating the following: 

************************************************************************************* 

We the undersigned, wish the German Shepherd Dog Club of America Board to Draft a letter to the American Kennel Club that it will NOT protest the AKC establishing the White Shepherd as a separate breed within the Foundation Stock Service program. 

************************************************************************************* 

At a recent GSDCA board meeting I attended I was asked to obtain an opinion of the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde regarding the Berger Blanc Suisse FCI-Standard N° 347 / 18.12.2002 / GB. Therefore, I am writing this letter to you asking for your help in this matter. 

In addition, if the GSDCA would agree to NOT protest the establishment of the White Shepherd (White Swiss Shepherd) as a separate breed within the AKC, would the the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde have an opinion regarding that?
For your information, I am attaching a copy of the letter I sent to the GSDCA board and membership. Please let me know if you need any additional information. 

Thank you for your time and consideration, 
Melanie Fuellgraf
[email protected]
ph: 724-586-6979 


 

*************************************************************************************************************************************
************* Response From SV
*************************************************************************************************************************************
--- On *Wed, 8/4/10, SV-HG, Sekretariat <[email protected]>* wrote:

From: SV-HG, Sekretariat <[email protected]>
Subject: Berger Blanc Suisse/White Shepherd
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, August 4, 2010, 4:56 AM
Sehr geehrte Frau Fuellgraf,
im Zusammenhang mit Ihrer Anfrage vom 11.07.2010 dürfen wir Ihnen mitteilen, dass die Rasse „Weißer Schweizer Schäferhund/Berger Blanc Suisse“ derzeit als provisorische Rasse (Standard-Nr. 347) von der FCI anerkannt wurde. 
Insofern handelt es sich, nach endgültiger Anerkennung durch die FCI, um eine eigenständige Rasse und nicht um „weiße“ Deutsche Schäferhunde, denn für diese würde entsprechend dem Rassestandard eine Nachzuchteintragungssperre zu verhängen sein, da die Farbe „weiß“ einen zuchtausschließenden Mangel darstellt. 
Aufgrund des vorgenannten Sachverhaltes sehen wir deshalb keinen Grund, der gegen die Einführung der Rasse „Weißer Schweizer Schäferhund/Berger Blanc Suisse“ im Bereich der AKC sprechen würde. 
Inwieweit hiervon vertragliche oder andere Vereinbarungen zwischen der FCI und dem AKC betroffen sind, entzieht sich unserer Kenntnis. 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen 
Hartmut Setecki 
Geschäftsführender Direktor 
*--------------------------------------------------------------* 
*Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.* 
*Steinerne Furt 71* 
*86167 Augsburg* 
*Tel.: +49 821 74002 62* 
*Fax: +49 821 74002 903* 
*E-Mail: [email protected]* 
*Internet: www.schaeferhunde.de* 
Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V., Steinerne Furt 71, 86167 Augsburg - vertreten durch den Vorstand, dieser vertreten durch die Hauptgeschäftsführung
Hauptgeschäftsführer Hartmut Setecki 
VR Augsburg 15 


 

*************************************************************************************************************************************
************* Translation of SV Response
*************************************************************************************************************************************

Google Translation 
Dear Füllgraf,
 
in connection with your inquiry dated 11/07/2010, we inform you that the race was "White Swiss Shepherd / Berger Blanc Suisse" is currently on a provisional basis (Standard-Nr. 347) recognized by the FCI.

is respect it to be a separate race and would not "white" German Shepherds, because for this to be imposed according to the breed standard is a breeding grounds for suspension, since the color "white" one zuchtausschließenden deficiency after final recognition by the FCI to represent.

Given the above facts, we therefore see no reason that would speak against the introduction of the race, "White Swiss Shepherd / Berger Blanc Suisse" in the AKC.

To what extent thereof, or other contractual agreements between the FCI and the AKC is concerned, is beyond our knowledge.
 
Yours sincerely,

Hartmut Setecki
Managing Director 
Additional Translation - The following translation was done by a person who was born and raised in Germany. She has also done many corporate translations. [This following has been translated in good faith. In case of arbitration, the German original takes precedence over the English translation.]. 
With regard to your inquiry of 11 July 2010, we would like you to know that the type (?) of dog…"Weisser Schweitzer Schaeferhund/Berger Blanc Suisse (White "Swiss" Shepherd..dog) is presently recognized by the FCI, as "interim" type of dog (could be "class of dog")…., Standard-No 347 (Reference Do. #347).

After full acceptance (recognition) by the FCI, this actually pertains to a fully 'separate' type of dog ("class of dog"??), and not (NOT) to 'White German Shepherds'; because (for White German Shepherds), a 'veto" would be applicable, due to the 'coloring' of the 'coat' (of this aforementioned dog) which exhibits a defect), and therefore, you could not breed these as such. 

According to all above-mentioned reasons, we do not see any reason which would prevent (within the AKC) the introduction (incorporation? Import?) of this type of dog, …"Weisser Schweitzer Schaeferhund/Berger Blanc Suisse (White "Swiss" Shepherd..dog).

Note: We do not have any information regarding any-and-all agreements between the FCI and the AKC, and all actions resulting thereof. 
Sincerely,


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I still think its a dumb idea to have 2 breeds separated because a darn coat color, when they are actually the same breed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If it is a seperate breed what would the AKC do with a white that comes from regular parents? ( I assume that this is genetically possible) Mixed breed?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

codmaster said:


> If it is a seperate breed what would the AKC do with a white that comes from regular parents? ( I assume that this is genetically possible) Mixed breed?


This s my concern as well.I know that white dogs have been bred to colored dogs in the past, and that the resullting offspring carry the white gene. So what happens to the white puppies born after the split? Are we back to people selling their "rare" white puppies?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

How does the AKC handle the Belgians? Under AKC they are 4 different breeds. In the rest of the world they are 4 varieties of the same breed. Given the genetics of the Belgians, it is possible to have multiple varieties in the same litter. So when that happens with AKC registered Belgians, how is it handled? Is a Terv born to Mal parents a Terv or a DQed long coated Mal? Is a Groendale out of Terv parents a Belgian Sheepdog, or a DQed black Terv?

I would think how that is handled would set precedence for white pups born to GSD parents if they were to split into different breeds. But I don't know how it's handled. Does anyone? Or are AKC Belgian breeders specializing only in one type so much that no longer happens (or at lest not frequently)?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yikes, Chris, I just opened to ask the same question!

You can put two mals together and get the other "breed" etc.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Andaka said:


> This s my concern as well.I know that white dogs have been bred to colored dogs in the past, and that the resullting offspring carry the white gene. So what happens to the white puppies born after the split? Are we back to people selling their "rare" white puppies?


If I understand it correctly this would be a *voluntary separation*. It would only affect those who wanted to separate from the breed, and would have no affect on those who wanted their dogs to remain GSD's, color white.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Is a Terv born to Mal parents a Terv or a DQed long coated Mal?


In the States, the dog would be registered as a Malinois and DQ'd.

The dogs are registered as whatever the breed of the parents was.

Black dog out of Terv parents = DQ black Terv
Terv out of Mal parents = DQ Mal
Terv out of black dogs = DQ fawn Belgian Sheepdog


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Hmmm, so you could whelp the belgian dog litter in another country and get around that. Crazy dog world!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If I understand it correctly this would be a *voluntary separation*. It would only affect those who wanted to separate from the breed, and would have no affect on those who wanted their dogs to remain GSD's, color white.


And therein lies the problem.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Samba said:


> Hmmm, so you could whelp the belgian dog litter in another country and get around that. Crazy dog world!


 Yep. I already wrote quite a bit about this earlier in this thread.

Some US breeders who want to do intervariety (IV) breeding send their bitches to friends in Canada for the breeding and whelping. Then the puppies are "imported" back to the US and can be registered as what they appear to be (which means if you have 2 different varieties in the litter, they are registered as two separate breeds with AKC). If you import littermates from anywhere that are different colors/coat types, AKC will register them as separate breeds. A lot of Belgians in the US have IV pedigrees, which had the IV breedings happen in the US the dogs would be considered mixes with AKC. It isn't uncommon for more than one variety to be born in a litter in the US (even when both parents are the same variety) but as Xeph said, they have color DQs.

Since the split in GSDs will be voluntary, wGSDs born to parents registered as GSDs will still be registered as GSDs regardless of color. AKC isn't going to force anyone to register their wGSD as a separate breed. Honestly, this choice doesn't seem like it would affect people not involved in wGSDs much at all. There will still be AKC registered GSDs that are white, they will still be DQ'd and breeders not interested in wGSDs will still avoid them. And there will still be plenty of pet breeders breeding wGSDs for the general public, AKC registered and otherwise.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Most recent info from the GSDCA.

"The Board of Directors voted to rescind the motion made at the July 2011 meeting to send a letter to the AKC stating the GSDCA was not opposed to the AWSA contacting the AKC to join the AKC FSS. 

Recognizing the need to be more inclusive, the Board discussed several options towards satisfying the interests and needs of most owners of White German Shepherd Dogs. "


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

arycrest said:


> From what I've been told, the masked color can be sable, black, b/t or any other color found in the GSD breed.


The gene for white in GSDs is on a different locus, so the white dog can be any pattern on the agouti locus--all you will see is the white (or sometimes some cream/ivory reflection of the pattern).

White is not "fixed" in the sense that non-white dogs can produce white puppies if both parents have the allele. But two white GSDs will only produce whites. 

There seems to be some incomplete penetration of its effects, though, as a dog with a single gene for white often shows some evidence of the white gene in its coloration (and because some dogs have cream/ivory fur where it might otherwise have black fur). 

Also, it seems that sometimes dogs bred for white don't always carry the genes desired for GSD masking--because you can't see a mask on a white dog. So you'll often get a total lack of a black mask or almost a husky mask on dogs who have only one white parent (so they only get one copy of the gene).


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> There seems to be some incomplete penetration of its effects, though, as a dog with a single gene for white often shows some evidence of the white gene in its coloration (and because some dogs have cream/ivory fur where it might otherwise have black fur).
> 
> Also, it seems that sometimes dogs bred for white don't always carry the genes desired for GSD masking--because you can't see a mask on a white dog. So you'll often get a total lack of a black mask or almost a husky mask on dogs who have only one white parent (so they only get one copy of the gene).


I think also, that many people breeding for white are also intentionally breeding for (or from) blk and cream or blk and silver. Many of these breeders also LIKE the "missing mask." So you can get a double whammy with the very, very light colors.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Andaka said:


> Most recent info from the GSDCA.
> 
> "The Board of Directors voted to rescind the motion made at the July 2011 meeting to send a letter to the AKC stating the GSDCA was not opposed to the AWSA contacting the AKC to join the AKC FSS.
> 
> Recognizing the need to be more inclusive, the Board discussed several options towards satisfying the interests and needs of most owners of White German Shepherd Dogs. "


I know I do not really have a dog-in-this-fight, but I am glad GSDCA changed its tune.


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