# Oh Deer! Off-leash hiking and the joy of the chase...help!



## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

We've discovered that off-leash hikes are the best way to get the dogs some morning exercise, stimulation, and adventure to tide them through the work day. Each morning around 7 a.m. I take the dogs for about an hour long hike in the foothills.
They both have great recall of the useless variety, which is with no distractions. Both dogs will always come quickly when called on a hike...if there are no rabbits or deer to be found.

However, because of the shift in daylight, we are often hiking now when the deer are grazing. When they see a deer and I don't catch them alerting to it, they will NOT come back until they've had their chase- and they will run far away, far enough that I couldn't catch them if I wanted to.

The obvious solution is to not let them off leash- which is what I have started doing now that we are out each day at the same time that the deer are. But how can we train them to stop this? The dogs are noticeably more anxious and high-strung when they only get 2 hour long leashed hikes a day (and who can blame them, even my brisk hiking pace is nothing compared to their running pace). 

For those of you who do daily off-leash hikes in the woods/mountains, how do you deal with this issue? Do you let your dogs chase rabbits and deer? 

Super frustrating...all of us have more fun when they can hike off-leash, but I don't want to worry that they will get lost, hurt, shot, or worse...


----------



## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

Dax definitely chases deer he sees. We are lucky that the woods off the path are rather dense, and he realizes fast enough that he hasn't got a chance in catching them, so he stops, lol. 

Unfortunately I am still trying to work on his recall and high prey drive, so I can't really offer much advice on this...


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I will be watching this closely--we live in the mountains and have deer everyday in our yard. Rocket will give a bit of a chase in the yard, but as the deer can quickly hit the fence and bound out, he stops. Only once or twice has he seen them on the trail, and we were lucky to have really high value treats and distract him quickly long enough so that they ran off. He's also only a pup, so I don't know what will happen as he grows. 

Good question though.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I can't imagine anyone would answer this yes."Do you let your dogs chase rabbits and deer? " 
Where I live in Wyoming, dogs can and have been shot on sight for chasing deer, elk and any game animals. If your dog takes off and runs game animals, it is only a matter of time before it will be shot. 
Why would you let your dogs off leash if they are not reliable on recalls chasing game? I guess I just figure it is smarter to keep my dogs on leash, then worry about them getting shot. Oh yea, have you ever seen the damage a pissed of deer, elk, moose can do to a dog? You might watch your dog take off chasing one and when you find the dog , it might be dead. They are deadly with their hoofs and horns.
My advice, keep your dogs ON LEASH while in the woods.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

While I have no real advice I can provide, I can assure you dealing with two (or more) dogs in prey drive will be double difficult to control. 

If it were me, I'd keep them on a leash at least till after deer season. Work very hard with recall including distractions. When I started them back on the trail, I'd have one on a leash at all times until both of their recalls were rock hard. 

I don't think at any time would I allow them to chase any type of wild game. There are just too many things that can go wrong. Including, but not limited to, the chance they never return and are lost.


----------



## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I never, ever, ever let my dogs off-leash unless I have an e-collar on them (they are trained with electric for recalls) because of their high prey drive. I would rather not risk it. Otherwise, a leash is going to be the best option.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I can't imagine anyone would answer this yes."Do you let your dogs chase rabbits and deer? "
> Where I live in Wyoming, dogs can and have been shot on sight for chasing deer, elk and any game animals. If your dog takes off and runs game animals, it is only a matter of time before it will be shot.
> Why would you let your dogs off leash if they are not reliable on recalls chasing game? I guess I just figure it is smarter to keep my dogs on leash, then worry about them getting shot. Oh yea, have you ever seen the damage a pissed of deer, elk, moose can do to a dog? You might watch your dog take off chasing one and when you find the dog , it might be dead. They are deadly with their hoofs and horns.
> My advice, keep your dogs ON LEASH while in the woods.


While I agree with everything in here, it IS POSSIBLE to have a dog that is 100% rock solid trustworthy. I should know--I spend several months a year in Montana and we live with deer, moose and the occasional elk, plus all the raccoons, porcupines and critters that live in the woods. (I live in the woods). My labrador NEVER ONCE kept chasing if I said "NO" or "Come". Not once. 

In fact, we had to make him chase them off the plants in the yard, lol.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I am sure it is possible, but doesn't sound like the OP's dogs are even close to that.
I live in the woods, year round and even though my girl is very very reliable on recalls off leash, I would NEVER just turn her loose on the trails to be free. Besides the fact that there is wild game, there are also horseback folks who do not appreciate a loose dog to come running up to horses with no owner in sight, plus the fact that there are plenty of wild game that would be more than happy to eat a dog. When riding my horses in the hills, I never take my dog with me, but it make me angry when somebody elses dog comes flying up the trail barking and snarling to my horses that are under my control. Dogs that are not directly within eye contact are NOT under control of their owners, running 100 yards, 200 yards ahead is not under control.

Just common sense not to let your dogs run loose on forest trails in my opinion, no matter how reliable they are. In all my years of training dogs, I have NEVER seen one 100% totally reliable off leash dog when deer, elk, etc are running. Glad your dog is a huge exception to the rule.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My dog is reliable offlead in the woods. We jump fawns and deer fairly frequently and he does not take chase. He has to be to do the cadaver work.

My other dog had to be conditioned with an ecollar. I am working with the puppy while he is still young (no ecollar) and not as inclined to leave me.

If the dog is not reliable they would not be out without the lead. nothing is 100% that is correct. NOTHING. But you can get pretty darned close.


----------



## Sapakus (Aug 10, 2010)

I hope someone has a way of correcting this.

due to lack of dog parks around my area, I took mine to a tennis court last week, somehow there was a back door that was left open. Ice got out of it and took after a deer completely ignoring my recalls :/ he ran into the trees and i lost him in the darkness. Took me and my friend more than an hour to find him, about 2 miles away!! His recall is good without distractions, but when there are distractions its almost imposiible to get him to listen to me.

I am really thinking about going the e-collar route, but haven't educated myself enough on that to do it!


----------



## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I am really luckily Meika has absolute recall every time. Yes, 100% she doesn't budge until I say okay (so far anyways). 
Macy on the other hand takes off and I actually have to send Meika to herd her back. I was really lucky Meika was very easy to train, since a young pup she has always been by my side, without question.
Otherwise I would not let me dogs loose, just for safety reasons.
Max and Macy are always on a long lead if we are in the woods or I use Meika to herd them around our own land.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I do live in the woods, year round. Just not in Montana year round. The animals I referenced were all ones we have here at home. I live with hiking trails right out my front door. Maybe you can say nothing is 100%, but I guess all that matters is for the 12 1/2 years my lab was on this earth, he was 100%. And he encountered all of them. 

I do hate unleashed dogs that run up to you also. On horse back or not, it's still super irritating and dangerous. I'm only willing to let my pup off leash in areas I'm sure he's safe, and others are too.


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Where I live in Wyoming, dogs can and have been shot on sight for chasing deer, elk and any game animals. If your dog takes off and runs game animals, it is only a matter of time before it will be shot.


Ummm... silly city dweller question, why would someone shoot a dog that was chasing a deer?


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

We also go for daily hikes in the woods and he was off leash until he did the same thing- ignored me and chased whatever was up there. So we went back on a long lead while I taught 'woah' which means stop dead in your tracks, turn around and look at me- followed by 'come'. Now that he was the woah down 100% we're back in the woods off lead. I still bring a few treats for the times I need to use it and he comes back. Having been through last year's shooting incident, I now put a bright orange collar on him with orange tape streamers hanging down so everyone knows he's a dog, not a wolf or whatever the idiot neighbor thought he was.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I've been worried about what Bailey might do if he sees a deer in the woods when we do our trail walks. I am careful to not go at sunrise/sunset, when they're so active. 

I'm lucky in that our favorite trail is in a county park, so no hunting allowed, no horses, etc and it is entirely fenced in so he couldn't get miles away no matter how distracted he might get. It's very unusual to find anyone back on those trails, thankfully. My worry is what wyominggrandma stated - that he might seriously piss off the deer. Or worse, a mama with fawns. There are no elk, coyotes, etc to worry about.

I used to be able to take my two dogs both offleash on that trail walk, but since I've added Bailey, my problem child and Bailey will get so into each other and the run, that they've run off on me. Bailey was the one to turn around and check back... the other, not so much. The problem child is now always on a long lead on those walks. Those two just influenced each other too much.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LifeofRiley said:


> Ummm... silly city dweller question, why would someone shoot a dog that was chasing a deer?


I could see it....guy spends all night in a deer stand waiting for that buck he has been wanting to get all season...dog runs it and blows the whole thing........


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> Ummm... silly city dweller question, why would someone shoot a dog that was chasing a deer?


People to ,who mess up their shot (lol) .Got a deer tag many years ago went hunting w/ cousins saw the deer yelled at the deer to run ,I was lucky I just walked 5 miles back to town.


----------



## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

When you guys mention a long lead, how long are you talking about? And is that just for 1 dog owners? I only let them off 1 at a time now but I can only imagine the tangles with 2 long leads.

There is no hunting where we hike.

So other than the suggestion for the e-collar, and training the recall with other distractions that aren't deer, just....deer with it?


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I use a 20 ft lead. Stosh has a very good 'wait' so when he gets to the top of a hill or too far ahead I tell him to wait for me and he does.

In most states it's illegal to hunt game with dogs- if you need a license to hunt it [deer, elk, moose, etc]. In most states it's also illegal to let your dog run game animals because they can maim but not kill it, so it is legal to shoot the dogs. At least that's my understanding.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One thing I am doing with Beau is he is getting a lot of socialization with farm goats and I know others who do the same.

Reason being is goats and deer are very closely related, have similar odors and move in similar ways. They are very much prey animals in their reaction to dogs. When the dog learns about the most interesting thing about goats is their poop and learns to accept and ignore them I think it makes more reliable.

Also exposing Beau around free range pasture chickens too.

I did have to train Cyra with an ecollar - she was older than Beau before the farm experience and the prey drive was too high. She was able to generalize her experience with being trained on chickens and goats to animals in the wild. Grim came with a good bit of farm experience and was an adult and never showed any interest other than a fleeting interest in horses which I was able to curb verbally.

I have worked Grim on a cadaver problem in a chicken house full of loose chickens, ducks, and turkeys and he completely ignored them-even pushed aside a posturing turkey to get to the source material so he could give his indication.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You can't hunt big game in wyoming with dogs. You can hunt mountain lions with dogs.
But to answer the question, it is against the law for a dog to run game(deer, elk, moose)therefore they can be shot if caught chasing them, It is also legal to shoot a dog chasing or even barking or harassing livestock in Wyoming. 
If you let a dog run loose, it will eventually get shot, almost 100% guaranteed. It doesn't seem to stop most folks, they just get a new dog.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Being the Queen of the OffLeash hikes.........in an area crazy full of deer, I feel your pain 

First I start when they are puppies, and they are perfect ANGELS, no matter what, until around 6 months old. And around 6 months is when I up the training and go to DOG CLASSES!

Cause around 6 months is also when I start losing that great 'come' as the pups become more confident (good thing ) and start leaving me to chase things (bad thing  ).

IF the dog classes don't help cement the reliable 'come' ONLY if the classes don't help, then I go to my trainer and we add the e-collar. 

ONLY WITH THE HELP OF MY TRAINER.

Because otherwise I (and everyone I know) do NOT use the collar properly and PUNISH (rather than train) with it. Plus end up with a dog that is 100% collar smart (learns to only listen if they have the e-collar on). I want my dogs to LEARN to pay attention and not run off and LEARN to listen to me all the time (heaven forbid I forget to put the collar on and there are deer in my yard otherwise!).

The way I trained the 'come' is explained Using the E-Collar To Train the Recall | Ty Brown but the problem is that when I just read and train on my own, I rush and skip steps, confusing the dog. Which is why I would only do this with the help of an instructor to make sure I was doing it right. You CAN mis-use the collar and they are expensive to waste. You actually activate the collar UNTIL the dog obeys. You *don't *wait until they do not obey and then ACTIVATE UNTIL THE DOG IS SCREAMING as punishment. 

Plus your dog must still be in sight when you are training. So if you weren't watching and your dog has disappeared over the horizon, then you activate the collar you are NOT training properly, but punishing and confusing. THis can mess up your wonderful dog.

LOU CASTLE - FITTING THE ECOLLAR is another good resource.

PLEASE remember the e-collar isn't just a quick and easy fix. There's a ton of continued training that must go on. It's the training that people fail to do properly. And it's those poor dogs (cause of a poor owner!) that give the e-collars a bad name. 

If you look closely you can see e-collars 2 of these three dogs!


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> You can't hunt big game in wyoming with dogs. You can hunt mountain lions with dogs.
> But to answer the question, it is against the law for a dog to run game(deer, elk, moose)therefore they can be shot if caught chasing them, It is also legal to shoot a dog chasing or even barking or harassing livestock in Wyoming.
> If you let a dog run loose, it will eventually get shot, almost 100% guaranteed. It doesn't seem to stop most folks, they just get a new dog.


Interesting. Thank you for answering.


----------



## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

@Maggie Rose Lee, what type of e-collar do you recommend? And how many weeks/months of training did it require before you were comfortable with not using them anymore?
Both of our dogs were adopted as adults, and I think both of them had a history of chasing prey animals- our first rescue was a stray before we got her and almost definitely learned that chasing prey = a much-needed meal.

I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable with using an e-collar unless we had the help of a trainer- the trainers and classes we have used so far are positive reinforcement only. Any tips on finding a humane and sensitive trainer who might help us with an e-collar? I know for sure the individual trainer we used would NOT help with that.


----------



## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

I think what I will start doing for now is using a 26' lead for one dog at a time, and keep the other dog on our usual 6 foot leash clipped to me, that way they can alternate being 'free' but I'm not going to get tangled up in a whirlwind of dog and can maintain control.

We rarely see other humans or dogs where we go and I keep them on leash and close to me until we hit the wilderness areas- I hate the unrestrained/uncontrolled dog running up to say HI as much as the next person.

It seems like a flexi-leash for one dog at a time wouldn't be terrible, as long as it was used as a training tool.

We use 4 foot leashes for running or walking on bike paths/sidewalks/etc just for safety and control reasons.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm not sure of any trainers in your area, you may want to go to the Lou Castle site I posted and email him. He'll answer you back and with any instructors in your area that he'd recommend.

I STILL put the collars on my dogs when we hike, but it's more a 'just in case' more than the fact that I have to active them. So they wear the collars, I turn them on and carry the remotes, but truthfully they listen and pay attention so I rarely have to activate them. At this point it's just for my peace of mind and/or a quick reminder to the dog if they do choose to not listen.

I have the TriTronics Sports collars, those and the Dogtra's seem to be the best. Strong, reliable and waterproof. I get them from http://www.collarclinic.com/ and have the reconditioned units. The company has excellent customer service and I've always been pleased with them.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I know a trainer who uses the Dogtra- but I agree, it's best to have a trainer show you how to use the collar properly.


----------



## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

I have used and e-collar for years for the purpose of recall. It's been a lifesaver, especially with younger dogs, not puppies. I generally will keep a puppy on a long line until they are at least 6-8 months old before using a prong or e-collar. As many know high prey driven dogs especially when they get into that stupid age, 6-8 months and above, until the are mature and truly trained, can be very challenging and potentially make decisions that can be dangerous to their own health. As a number have mentioned, please realize that training to an e-collar takes time and is not something to take lightly.


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

if a deer gets caught or if it doesnt wanna run its going to fight your dog a deer can kill a man very easy they can kill coyotes also specially the males a mother deer with young are very dangerous also they are nothing like domestic sheep or goats they know how to fight and are powerful ive seen 1 make mince meat out of a dog its not a pretty site once they get cornered i have many reports of them attacking humans also.


I saw a bad tempered buck in my yard put the fear of god into 2 coywolves in the winter here once they backed off quick.


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

we have elk here also ive seen them near my house an elk will not run from a pack of coywolves even nothing phases a bull elk it would never run from a dog or 2 it will kill the dog if the dog went after it they put up signs warning people to stay away from them, hes not scared of nothing


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Well I found out that Abby doesn't have 100% recall. She has chased 3 deer in 2 days and totally ignored my calling her. I have been walking through these woods for 15 years and never encountered a deer until yesterday (and today) so the problem of deer-chasing never came up. Fortunately the deer were large and had a good headstart on her and had plenty of woods to escape into. First time in 2+ years that she got out of sight and sound fromf us. A little unnerving.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Here's a couple things you can do.

First, USE the deer! Take your dogs out ON leash and look for deer. When you see the deer get the dogs to look at them THEN call their attention back to you and reward with a VERY high value thing (toy, treat, etc.). Keep this up for several days/weeks.

At the same time look into getting an e-collar and using it properly. They are THE best way to be 110% sure your dog will not go crittering.

With the training you may never need the e-collar but it's better to have it and not need it than to watch your dog get hit by a car because they decided to go crittering.


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Every time I read about dogs chasing deer two thought come to mind. The first one is a police officer or a game warden witnessing the chase and shooting the dog, and the second one is the deer turning around and trampling the dog. I still can't get that video out of my mind where the deer trampled the dog in a subdivision. The dog didn't even chase the deer, but was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

i'm also hearing more and more about e-collars and my opinion of them are changing, just like my opinion of a prong collar changed once I researched it.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Best way to prevent your dog from chasing deer, is keep them on a leash. I am sure there are plenty of people who feel their dogs are 100% in control at all times, but it just seems that when a deer/elk/moose pop up when walking in the hills, its very very hard for a dog to not forget his obedience and take off.,
Deer and elk are now trying to eat for winter around here and dogs are being shot daily for running them.


----------



## London's Mom (Aug 19, 2009)

London used to chase Deer like mad when we lived in VA. In order to reinforce his "recall skills", I bought these REALLLLY yummie treats. On occassion while we were hiking off leash on the trails, I would call him when there were NO distractions. Randomly. He would come immediately and sit. I would then highly praise him and give him one of these yummie treats. He loved them.

So now when he is hot on the trail of a deer, squirrel, whatever, I call him and he stops dead in his tracks and comes back. I am very pleased by this. Unfortunately, I have not mastered this skill with Emma as of yet. So I am much more restrictive with her on the walks. The one thing about her, though, is that she is very much afraid of the "unknown", being a rescue. So she really does cling to me on our walks.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Masi does ALOT of offleash hiking, we run into deer, the ocasional coyote ...She's such a good dawg , that girl can stop on a dime If I really think she's going to kick in and go for it, I just yell FRISBEE, and bam she's back

Her frisbee over rules anything else in life, in fact couple weeks ago I had a big fat racoon in my backyard (fenced) and didn't see it, let the dogs out, the aussies were off in 'lala land',,so getting them back to the house was easy they didn't see the racoon or he woulda been a dead one MASI on the other hand, was racing around with her jollyball and both of us almost tripped over the darn ****! She saw it, even jumped over it, but it was allllll about her jollyball .


----------



## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

Be careful with deers.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

both my dogs have extremely high prey drive. however my Male is more reliable than my female on recall off critters. once she starts chase its all over............So, i had to get an e-collar that was the only way to get her corrected. Now she gets the idea. i think any time you have more than one dog off leash walking the woods its ten times as hard to try and control things. some dogs might be close to 100% with the lunge line training, but others have that tunnel vision and want the chase and the instinct is to high to remember the training, so this is where the e-collar comes in..........depends on the dog.........


----------



## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

Just wanted to echo the sentiment that deer are not all Bambi. If you or your dog corner or frighten them they will hurt you. There was a deer in our subdivision last year and instead of going inside and waiting for the deer to wander away my neighbor decided to go over *with her dog* and try to chase the deer out. She is *very* lucky that the deer didn't decide to charge her with those sharp hooves.

I can't really contribute to this subject- we only hike off-leash in a deer-free area. A few weeks ago when we went looking for deer my dog was on-leash because I know that he may or may not listen to me if there is a deer running. Rabbits and squirrels can be ignored after a lot of recall work.


----------



## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

debbiebrown said:


> both my dogs have extremely high prey drive. however my Male is more reliable than my female on recall off critters. once she starts chase its all over............So, i had to get an e-collar that was the only way to get her corrected. Now she gets the idea. i think any time you have more than one dog off leash walking the woods its ten times as hard to try and control things. some dogs might be close to 100% with the lunge line training, but others have that tunnel vision and want the chase and the instinct is to high to remember the training, so this is where the e-collar comes in..........depends on the dog.........


My pup has a lot of drive and we have a lot of deers where I live so I'm going the e collar route too, better to be over prepared than under.


----------

