# Urgent Question--Dog Bit My Wife



## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

First of all, I apologize for my first post being something negative and not a proper introduction. But I'm kind of desperate.

We've had our 9-year-old white GSD for two months now. (I'd give his name, but I want to stay anonymous for now.) We adopted him from a young woman who was heading overseas for her job and didn't think the dog would do well in the long flight or tiny apartment. We adopted a mature dog because we knew a puppy would be a handful, even for an as-yet childless couple in their late 30s. We did tons of research and have always loved everything about the GSD. I grew up with dogs, and we watch the dog-training shows and read up a lot, so we made sure we knew what we were getting into.

Up till last night, he'd been great. Very happy and very well behaved, other than a little jumping onto his hind legs when time to go for a walk. We've been showering him with affection, walking him every afternoon, giving him the best dog food, having his teeth cleaned at the vet, and also exercising some discipline--basically making him go to his bed instead of sniffing at the dining room table while we're eating. In short, we have LOVED this dog. You wouldn't believe how many photos of him we've taken. He's seemed very happy and is very healthy. (No one can believe his age.)

He's bonded mostly with me, the husband. When we walk him, my wife will have the leash sometimes, but usually it's me, as I walk a lot faster. And I feed him at least half the time. He clearly is more attentive to me, following me around and being more alert to my commands. I feel guilty about this, but I know it's somewhat natural, in that I have a deeper voice--my wife's voice is very high--am several inches taller than her, and if course am male.

Last night I went upstairs to get ready for bed. I needed to get to bed early, so this time I didn't really say/pet the dog goodnight as we both ususally do, but my wife did. He was sitting on his haunches in his dog bed, looking at the staircase I'd just gone up. My wife tells me she was doing what we both have done probably hundreds of times now: She put his head in her hands and said goodnight to him and then moved her head around to the side of his, to sort of hug him.

That's when I heard a scream and an "Oh my god." He bit her in the face. Three small tooth marks, one of which is an actual puncture. She's OK--she wasn't really bleeding to speak of, and some Neosporin and a bandage did the trick--but we're totally freaked out.

She'd done nothing to provoke him. I myself have nuzzled my nose in the fur of his cheek many times, as has she. She said the bite was quick and sudden.

He's not dog aggressive one bit, loves children, isn't even food aggressive. The only time he's "bitten" either of us was when I tried to dremel his toenails; he sort of tolerated it but then would half-bite me on the arm and then look at me sheepishly--I guess because it hurt, even though I was very careful and didn't grind any nail for more than a second. (I took him to Petsmart from then on.)

I've always heard that if a dog bites a member of the family, the dog has to go. That he'll never learn to respect that person.

My questions: 

What could have been the cause of this sudden attack? As ridiculous as it sounds, could he have been upset I didn't say/pet him goodnight and then taken out his frustration on my wife because she was being affectionate to him?

Is there any way to make 100% sure he never does this again through training? And to make sure he respects my wife equally to me? Or do we have to surrender him to adoption or have him euthanized? I hate to present those options, but hey, the dog bit my wife in the face. If we have children, we can't have a ticking time bomb around. Nor should my wife have to worry he'll do it again. I can't tell you how out-of-the-blue this was. We're stunned and saddened.

I sincerely appreciate any responses. Again, sorry for the negativity and urgency (and length), but I need some informed advice.

Thanks.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

My only thought is that taking a dog (especially new) by the head is not a good idea. Being 9 years old it is possible that he has not yet bonded with your wife. So she doesn't have carte blanche with handling him. Speaking from personal experience, my dog who is almost 2 and whom we have had since 11 weeks still doesn't like being handled by my wife to the degree that we would like although she is very playful with her. Very sorry that your wife had that happen to her but she may have gone too far in the dog's mind. I hope you can work it out to everyone's satisfaction and that the dog does not have aggression problems that you didn't know about. 
.... One other thought, most dogs don't like being hugged ...


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

PaddyD, thanks for your thoughts. What you say makes sense, although we've both handled his head so many times, never once with any protest from him. It's baffling.

I have to leave for work now, so I won't see any responses till this evening (lest it seem I'm ungrateful).


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Try letting you wife take over all of the daily doggie duties and you take a step back, so they can try and bond more. If you show little interest in the dog, your dog will soon hassle the next person ie, your wife. Let her feed and excercise him. Your dog will let you know when it wants attention such as toilet time hugs,play etc. Perhaps he is just not a very touchy feely dog. Hope things work out for you both! And I hope your wife recovers quickly!! From Lisa.. Plus have you thought about seeing a dog trainer?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I agree that this may be a matter of taking liberties with a dog who does not think that the person should be doing it. That's a pretty aggressive move in "dog" and so there may be some underlying behaviors to work on with a behaviorist - and things you can have fun and establishing a bond with this 9 yo dog in training classes!

It could be medical - things like inner ear infections can "hide". Other things might be pain related and can be something they tolerate time after time and then have had it. 

It could be age related like eyes/ears not prepped and surprised. 

Welcome to k9aggression.com | Dog Aggression Education, Support and Resources (and I am not thinking/labeling this is aggression per se, just the name of the site)



> She put his head in her hands and said goodnight to him and then moved her head around to the side of his, to sort of hug him.
> 
> That's when I heard a scream and an "Oh my god." He bit her in the face. Three small tooth marks, one of which is an actual puncture. She's OK--she wasn't really bleeding to speak of, and some Neosporin and a bandage did the trick--but we're totally freaked out.


This is the part I want more information on - when you come back from work. 

I have a 9 yo foster right now and she has THE weirdest habit - she will jump up and try to grab my cheek or face - snappa snappa. Or it is an air snap that will just miss. It happens when she's excited/happy and the first time it did I was shocked. I am not saying this is what happened, but if I was able to contact her former owner, I am betting I would learn about this behavior, and think that you should contact your dog's former owner to see if this has happened. 

I do think grabbing a newer to you dog's head and getting right up in their grill is an iffy proposition. We do these things without thinking - like I have heard dogs do not like to have you blow into their faces - just stuff people just do. 

Welcome to the forum - sorry for the circumstances and thank you for adopting a senior!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

It may not have been an aggressive action- Stosh had a bad habit of giving a very fast nip at my face, the same snappa snappa. Sometimes he'd connect, but usually not. He did it when I was giving him lots of pets and he would get excited then give the quick snap at my face. That might be what your boy was doing.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes - my foster will do this in public sometimes and people are very much ZOMG your dog just tried to bite you. We are working on it and she has almost stopped.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ditto with others have said--it might have been a play snap (I think about how many times the puppy has done this in just 3 weeks). 

Considering the age, I would definitely take a close look at medical issues. Some were mentioned above. Another is thyroid. It's the right age and you can see a drastic change in behavior.


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*Don't panic*

I agree with the previous posters. Could be many things. I will emphasize that to grab the head with both hands and in the dogs mind "restrict" his movement can be upsetting to the dog. We have to keep in mind that this fella is mature and there are times when someone does something in a way that is only slightly differrent than normal to you, is very differrent to the dog. Work with him and remember that he is a powerfull animal, and you do not know what events in his life may have traumatized or disturbed him.

Good luck!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

:welcome: and thank you for adopting a Senior! 



Stosh said:


> It may not have been an aggressive action- Stosh had a bad habit of giving a very fast nip at my face, the same snappa snappa. Sometimes he'd connect, but usually not. He did it when I was giving him lots of pets and he would get excited then give the quick snap at my face. That might be what your boy was doing.


I was thinking the same thing. Kaiser does this to me too when he is overly excited. 

Jean offered a lot of good information.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also have a question, what did the dog do AFTER he bit her in the face? Was he growling, was he trying to bite her again? How was with your wife afterwards?

I also agree it may not have been an aggressive move. Masi is 3 years old, and still will nip your face,if you stick your face in hers, in how do I explain this,,as a playful/ attention getter, there is nothing malicious about it,,bad manners probably, but not malicious..


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

My dog also does the snap thing. It is her way of playing or initiating play. Sometimes she will speak and snap at the the same time and it comes out like a high-pitched "HUPF". We have continued to enable this because we have so much fun with it. But back to the OP, I agree with Lisa to have your wife take a larger role in the dog's care while still being careful about grabbing, holding or hugging.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I agree with all the other about the snaping at the face Frank at 1 still does it when he gets very excited, something we're still working on.

The one thing I would suggest is your wife take over feedings and doing some obedeince classes with him.
You said it was natural that he follow you because you have a deeper voice and are taller then you wife, I think it's more he's just bonded to you more if you feed and walk him more. If your wife takes over some of these duties it will really help. 
Frank is very bonded to me (the wife) and was totally ignoring my husband would actually scream and throw a fit if we were in public and my husband tried to lead him away from me, my husband started walking him more at home and helping do his obed. training and it's really helped Frank to bond to him too.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN (Apr 8, 2011)

Nero also does this except he does it to his master when he comes home from work. Nero will jump on his lap once my fiancee gets chance to actually reach the chair Lol! Nero will then franticly lick at his face and you can hear Neros teeth start quietly snapping together, My fiancee will then say to Nero " Hey no love bites" Ha ha ha! Nero then calms down and just runs around whining in excitement bless!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also have a question, what did the dog do AFTER he bit her in the face? Was he growling, was he trying to bite her again? How was with your wife afterwards?


I think it's very important that you ask yourself these questions.

Although we all think it _could_ have been a playful nip, none of us saw what happened so we don't know for sure. I hope that it's all that it was but I would also encourage to you to keep on eye on your dog's behavior in case it is something more. 

Getting a behaviorist to evaluate the dog and getting into training classes together (especially your wife and the dog) are excellent ways to improve the relationship between you and your new dog. At two months in, he is just starting to settle and feel comfortable and you will likely see some changes as he starts to show his whole personality. Now is when you need to be on top of the fair and kind leadership.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

OK, I couldn't resist logging on while at work. Thanks so much to all of you or all the responses. To fill in a few blanks:

This was definitely not a play bite. For one, we were all about to go to bed; he was in his bed, in his "mellow mode" (or so we thought). My wife said she heard him growl for half a second and then, before she could even react, wham!--the bite to her face. And it wasn't a mere nip; she has three discernible tooth marks covering a span of maybe five inches. So he had his mouth open all the way.

Hard to say how he's acted since. Last night, after putting him in the backyard to tend to my wife's bite wound, we let him back inside and watched him to see what he would do. He seemed sort of alert to me and actually sat down and looked at me as if expecting a command or something, but he basically ignored her. This morning he didn't eat his food, but he often waits to eat breakfast. He kind of sniffed me while wagging his tail, but that was it. As you might imagine, neither of us has it within ourselves to offer him affection again at this point. And my wife doesn't want to be around him.

As to his history: We were told by the previous owner that he'd originally been an assistance dog for a paralyzed boy. Hard to believe that now. We have no idea who bred him. And I should've mentioned that he's half greyhound. Sorry I forgot that. We never think of this, because he looks 100% GSD except for a slightly deeper chest and the fact that he's only 63 pounds. But if anything, I would've thought the greyound would make him less aggressive, if anything. Oh, and he is neutered.

He was fairly well trained when we adopted him--he stays on leash well, will sit/lie down/shake and doesn't beg for food, though he will try to sniff near the table.

I don't think it could be a medical issue; we've taken him to the vet and updated his shots, had the cleaning, etc. As to a possible thyroid condition, he's not at all overweight and is very energetic, so it seems unlikely.

We would absolutely hate to have him euthanized or give him up, but we feel so betrayed and scared. What's to say he might not bite my wife again? If it had been provoked by something--say she had stepped on his tail--or if it had been a mere "warning shot" on the arm, I could understand that and work with it. But it's scary that he went from mellow to biting a member of the household with no provocation.

I'll check back again later; thanks again.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Can you think back and remember how the dog reacted to your wife hugging him BEFORE the incident? Did he seem happy abuot the contact or did he just seem to tolerate it?

Had your wife ever hugged the dog before when you *WEREN'T* around?

Has the dog ever tried to 'snap' at either of your faces before?

As others have said, without having SEEN the incident or being able to see the dog and how he interacts with you both we are all just guessing.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

In dogs, thyroid conditions show symptoms in various ways. Sometimes just blackened skin. Sometimes behavioral changes. Just bcause he has a good energy level and is not fat does not mean there is not an issue. Sudden changes in behavior is often the first sign of a thyroid issue.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

NovaShepherd said:


> ... or if it had been a mere "warning shot" on the arm, I could understand that and work with it. But it's scary that he went from mellow to biting a member of the household with no provocation.


In dog-speak this WAS a warning shot. The dog growled first then snapped.

If the dog was truly dangerous your wife would have stitches, not marks, on her face.

My guess is that the dog sees YOU as being in the charge but NOT the wife.

The first thing you need to decide is can both of you give the dog a second chance? If not then you should look at placing the dog with a rescue group (after telling them EVERYTHING) or euthanizing him. Most shelters will automatically euthanize a dog that has bitten someone.

If you decide you can try, you need to step back and let the wife take control of EVERYTHING dog-related - food, toys, treats, walks, affection - *EVERYTHING*.

Google NILIF - Nothing In Life Is Free. It's a non-confrontational way of teaching the dog that they have to work for everything they want - and by work I mean doing what the person in charge (wife) tells them to do.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Im sorry your wife got bit. Like everyone said there are lots of reasons why this could have happend, you may not figure it out. What really matters is what you do now. I hope you and your wife are able to forgive him and move on with training and handling. I can tell you that some dogs do not like to be hugged or smothered. One of my dogs can be a bit mouthy when shes excited, as much as I do discourage the mouthing, she nibbles on my arm or hand when I come home and greet. In your case it sounds like he was content in his bed and unfortunately he should have been left alone. My elderly aunt loves to bend down and put her face very close to my dogs, I can clearly see my dogs don't care for it. I told her a little childs rhyme "Two feet of space can save your face". 
Good luck, I hope your able to work this out.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Hello and Welcome, sorry for the circumstances that brought you here. Don't feel that you have to apologize for a long post that is what this forum is about, sharing stories and help for all of our dogs.

I hope that you can get your problem resolved soon and that all will be happy again.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Another thing is that you really do not know the background of this dog. You did, however, adopt him from a woman. Maybe there was something in his background where he just does not trust women from something that happened.
I, personally, would not stick my face in a dog's face I have only known 2 weeks. They do not know you and have not formed a bond or any trust with you. This is a senior dog taken out of his home he had for 9 years, put in a new home with new owners, new expectations 2 weeks ago.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Could your wife, as she was bending over to give your dog a hug, exhaled into your dog's ear? 

My male tolerates just about anything, but can not stand for you to blow into his face. I've never (nor will I ever) held his head and blew into his ear. I think I would be pushing the line on that one. My male has never snapped at my face, in play or otherwise. But I promise, if I were to hold his head and blow into his ear, he is going to react. 

Many GSDs have ear infection problems, your male could have a sensitive ear and your wife accidently exhaled into it as she bent over. Your dog reacted in a way that is not tolerated, but explainable. 

I would first, take the dog to the vet. Explain what happened, have your vet check for any problems within your dog's ear. Then, in an effort to assist your wife in gaining confidence with your dog and her ability to control it, I'd sign your wife and dog up for an OB class.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Welcome to the forum. I am sorry your wife got bit. First, I would like to say I agree with others who say have thyroid problems ruled out just to be sure. Also, keep in mind that the face is very personal space for a dog. If your dog has not bonded completely with your wife yet, he may not have appreciated her being in what he sees has "his" space. I also feel that was a warning, if he had wanted to really hurt her, she would have spent the rest of the evening in the ER.

That being said, this IS fixable and I hope you will give him a second chance. First both of you MUST overcome your fear. He can sense that and it will make going forward difficult. It will disrupt your bond and make bonding with your wife very difficult. Like other people have said your wife needs to become the number one care taker. Everything must come from her. Food, walks, pottybreaks, treats and she needs to be in charge of training. All of you should take a class together with her leading. He should see her as pack leader for now. 

Obviously, he has broken both of your trust and you have some fear of him. That is understandable. If you can try to gain an understanding of why he did it, then hopefully you can put it behind you and move forward. Try to see it from his point of view, so to speak. He was probably stand offish with y'all this morning because he was sensing your fear and anger with him and he didn't really understand why. Like I and others have said, that was a warning. If he was actually aggressive and was trying to due damage, your wife would need a lot more than neosporin and bandaids. 

Also, as was recommended, google NILIF- Nothing In Life Is Free- and start practicing it right away. And Good luck. Please keep us posted.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Thanks so much for all these words of sympathy and encouragement--and your firsthand experiences. This is a great forum!

I see now that I'm to blame in a couple of ways--in too often taking the lead and being the "alpha owner" and in failing to tell my wife not to cup his head--something I've done as well. (The thing is, we've done that innumerable times, along with nuzzling him, hugging him, etc., and he's never objected. I've even playfully growled into his neck-fur as he was lying there--no reaction. Growing up, I can remember that if I annoyed our dog by petting her when she was trying to sleep, she would give me plenty of warning growls, followed at worst by an air snap if I pushed it.)

We'll have to give it a few days and see how we feel. On one hand, I hate to give up on him. He's been such a fantastic and good-natured dog till now; I can even pick him up with no problem, give him a bath, inspect his teeth, touch his paws. And he's been good for us in getting us out of the house and meeting more of our neighbors. OTOH, it seems unfair and perhaps unwise to expect my wife to live with him in the house, having bitten her. And what if we have kids, and they forget and grab his head the wrong way?

Has anyone here ever had a dog bite a family member? Not a nip or an air-snap but an actual bite that drew blood?


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

My pup bit my husband in the face and drew blood on his nose. He was blowing in her face and she took a couple of nips at him then bit him. He learned his lesson and doesn't do it any more.

As far as unfair for your wife to live in the house with the dog, you have had him 2 weeks. Keep out of his face and like the others said, have her do all of the work with him. He does not know or trust you yet. Think if you were a senior dog taken from your home that is all you knew, with brand new owners, new expectations, etc. Bonds do not form overnight. You both have to earn his respect and trust.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> Thanks so much for all these words of sympathy and encouragement--and your firsthand experiences. This is a great forum!
> 
> I see now that I'm to blame in a couple of ways--in too often taking the lead and being the "alpha owner" and in failing to tell my wife not to cup his head--something I've done as well. (The thing is, we've done that innumerable times, along with nuzzling him, hugging him, etc., and he's never objected. I've even playfully growled into his neck-fur as he was lying there--no reaction. Growing up, I can remember that if I annoyed our dog by petting her when she was trying to sleep, she would give me plenty of warning growls, followed at worst by an air snap if I pushed it.)
> 
> ...



Think of it this way. He sees you as his leader. You have "earned" the right to play with him that way. He has probably allowed her to touch him that way up until now because you were around. Last night you were not. He does not see her as a leader, he sees her as an equal and that needs to change. I would not worry about kids just yet, you wouldn't leave them with him unattended (I hope!) so that is far in the future. 

Neither of my dogs have bitten me (well, unless you count the dreaded puppy landshark phase- and then I was a mass of puncture marks and bruises- but that is a puppy phase we go through with puppies and not what you are dealing with). I got my foster, she is a senior, but I started NILIF with her immediately and after almost 6 moths will only now get in her face to give kisses (and she doesn't have any front teeth or canines) but I still wanted to be sure the bond was there, that she saw me as the leader, and that trust was earned both ways. These things take time to develop and can't be rushed. 

Sadly, your wife's trust has been destroyed, that and her fear of him are going to be stumbling blocks. She is going to have to work through those in order to go forward. Unfortunately, I don't have any advice on how to do that but other on here who have been in that situation might.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

lots of good responses already. jmho...if this was a vicious dog your wife's injury would have been much more severe. many shepherds (probably most), don't like to have someone "get in their face". and i think it's particularly risky with an adult/senior dog that you haven't had for many years. if you think about it, when dogs fight what's the first thing they go for...the neck. and i also believe they experience 'hugging' as a form of restraint or restriction. i'd never heard the child's rhyme 'two feet of space can safe your face', but it's spot on. i know how disappointed, frustrated, and probably fearful you are...and only you can make the decision about how you want to move forward. but you do have the information now that this boy does not like his space violated. a thorough medical evaluation with bloodwork is absolutely necessary. consultation with a behaviorist (different from a 'trainer'), working with a trainer, modifying your behavior towards him, all necessary too. you'll have to work thru your anger at him and understand that so much of a dog's behavior is instinctual...i think shepherds are as close to human thinking as any dog can ever be, but dogs don't do things for "emotional" reasons (like being mad because you did or did not do something for him). can't remember from your post how long you've had him, but it can take an adult dog a very long time to adjust to new circumstances and settle in.

now i'd like to move to another topic that no one else has brought up yet, and it's URGENTLY IMPORTANT. your wife must see a doctor and get a course of prophylactic antibiotics. this has nothing to do with the rabies issue...dog bites, NO MATTER HOW SMALL, can look fine for a number of days and SUDDENLY become infected, and can progress to a life threatening condition requiring hospitalization and IV antibiotics IN A MATTER OF HOURS. i tell you this from personal experience, i sustained a tiny puncture wound not even large enough for a bandaid, which didn't even bleed, on my hand. everything was fine for close to a week. all of a sudden i looked down and my hand looked like a lobster claw. i went to an urgent care clinic and they immediately sent me to the hospital emergency room, i was in the hospital for three days and simply would never have believed this could happen from such a TINY wound, had it not happened to me. so i URGE you, PLEASE...doc right away for your wife. INSIST on a course of prophylactic antibiotics.

and thank you for coming here and asking questions to help you with the difficult decision you have to make. certainly, at the very least, you'll have to watch for any other aggressive behavior and you'll have to modify your behavior to respect this guy's space. you might want to consider a muzzle when you dremel him (or have his nails done by a vet or groomer who muzzles him so he doesn't associate the muzzle with you)...others might not agree, but along with respecting his space you've got to protect your's.

wishing you luck and peace of mind as you make your decision about what to do. for what it's worth, i hope you give him another chance. he's an older dog whose life circumstances have totally changed. and it wouldn't be fair to pass him along to someone else or send him to a shelter. you only have two fair choices...give him another chance or do the most difficult thing that any of us have to do...

take care.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

just saw your subsequent post and want to say that if this boy is 9 years old, you'd have to have kids really soon for them to even be walking while he's still alive. and keeping an older dog separated from a small child is very simple.

i also see that you've only had him two weeks. way, way, WAY not enough time to understand his behavior, likes and dislikes, and for him to earn YOUR trust. thank you so much again for coming here, asking questions and being open minded.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Was he in a crate?

Reiterating vet first - old dog teeth can get all infected and hurty too. So many physical possible causes - neck, spine, back pain, etc. Right now my neck hurts and if anyone grabbed my face so help me they would have to hope I would remember I was a verbal creature!  

The blowing in the face - I do to my dogs - who I have had for years, and fosters when I get the opportunity to do so safely after they know me well and we have a relationship. I do it because I know it's a bite risk and I want to associate it with good things for them just in case someone comes along and does that. 

He is probably having the same thoughts as you - who are these strangers - should I trust them - I've been trying to tell them things and they just don't understand me. 

Welcome to Dogwise.com can help you. Turid Rugas dog language book/dvd.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

sorry, me again...

"We were told by the previous owner that he'd originally been an assistance dog for a paralyzed boy. Hard to believe that now."

not hard to believe at all...please consider this viewpoint...not only does he have entirely new circumstances and people to deal with, he's lost "his boy" too...and while it's true that dogs don't do things for emotional reasons, they most assuredly have "feelings".


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Just to clarify, the OP stated he's had the dog 2 _months_, not 2 weeks. 

I was bitten by my dog (twice) when I was 8 years old. Not only drew blood but the second time required an ER visit and 4 stitches in my lip.
My dog was aging (he was a beagle mix) and got "cranky" as he got older. But I invaded his space. The first time I was reaching past him to get his ball and he got me in the nose. Just superficial but a bite non the less.
The second was shortly afterward and more serious. I was playing with him on the floor and he had his ball in his mouth and I went to grab the ball out of his mouth (I know, dumb move but I was a kid) and he dropped the ball and bit my face, his teeth went through my lip and my mom had to pry his mouth off of me. 
Something in that dog just changed and he was "put down" that night by my very upset and emotional dad. 
In the course of just a few months, his personality changed. Why, who knows? But this was the late 60's and training and behaviorists weren't the norm back then. 
I was never allowed another dog after that and thankfully I had a best friend with a GSD who was the sweetest girl ever. She never allowed me to get fearful of dogs, and the single reason I have a GSD now.

I know that story has no bearing on what you're going through but I wanted to share regardless. 

Good luck. I think you got some excellent advice and I hope it helps.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

KatieLiz, Jean, Debbi, everyone else--thanks again.

We've actually had him for just over two months, since early March. Not much time I realize, but longer than two weeks. I get your point, though--evidently not long enough to assume we can get in his face at any time. In our defense, though, he never indicated any aversion to that before. But obviously we should've been more cautious.

I don't think my wife blew in his ear, but I suppose it's possible she might have done so inadvertently, while saying "good night" to him.

Thanks to whoever implored us to get medical care. Great advice, and what a scary story! She's going to her doctor this afternoon to get a tetanus booster and preventive antiobiotics.

As to his own medical care: He's had the full bloodwork done, as well as the teeth cleaning (with extraction of one dead tooth) under sedation. He's very healthy.

She's at home with him now. She says she's not scared of him, just resentful (as am I). I know we'll have to get over that if we keep him. I reminded her that it's not personal on his part, that he's a dog, with perhaps the intelligence of a three-year-old. Easy for me to say, though; I'm not the one who got bitten.

I'll follow up when I have any news. Thanks again.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

If she isn't afraid then that is an excellent starting point. Once you really begin to understand him and overall dog behavior in general I think the resentfulness will fade (Like you said, it wasn't personal on his part and that is a great starting point at understanding him.)

This forum is an excellent place to do that. I will be the first to admit when I joined I was pretty clueless. This place had made a world of difference for me and my girl and now for my foster. I have gained such a huge understanding of not just GSDs but dogs in general, people here are always willing to help, answer questions and will send you links to other sites or outside sources for you to get answers. Like you said, you didn't know and many of us don't always when we first start. But we are here and willing to help. It doesn't just help you but it helps that dog that is in your home and you will find we are all pretty passionate about dogs on this forum. 

So, once again welcome, although, I am sorry that it was this incident that led you to us. I do hope you will stick around and let us help you and your wife and your dog though. 

Oh. BTW, if you do stick around, we have a picture requirement (of your dog, not you)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't have any insight on why he might have done such a thing. A person would really need to see it to evaluate body language on the part of your dog and your wife.

I think it's important to keep one thing in mind though. He is a dog. Being resentful when you don't understand why he did this will flow through in your attitude to him and he will know it. He doesn't understand resentment. Your wife may have startled him, hurt him, or something outside may have startled him and he reacted at that moment. He may have just been snapping in a playful manner. 

Another thing I noticed in your post was your idea of 'alpha'. I don't buy into that theory personally but I want to point out that who he attaches himself to has very little to do with height, tone of voice, etc. It is not your physical bearing OVER him that establishes who he decides he 'likes' best. My GSD won't follow my husband anywhere unless there is a reward in it for her. She won't even follow him through the door unless I tell her to "Go". She isn't ignoring him, she is just unsure whether she should wait for me. I'm 6" short and a much higher pitched voice. I'm also the one that wont' give any of the three a treat unless they earn it. 

My first phone call would be to the vet to rule out any medical condition. My second phone call would be to a behaviorist/trainer to train ME on how to relate to him. I found a lot of insight in the book "The Other End of the Leash" on how dogs view actions and body language and what theirs mean.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> KatieLiz, Jean, Debbi, everyone else--thanks again.
> 
> We've actually had him for just over two months, since early March. Not much time I realize, but longer than two weeks. I get your point, though--evidently not long enough to assume we can get in his face at any time. In our defense, though, he never indicated any aversion to that before. But obviously we should've been more cautious.
> 
> ...


 
2 weeks, 2 months, it still is not enough time for a senior dog to bond with you 2 and trust you completely.
As far as full bloodwork, for anesthesia all that consists of it a CBC and liver function panel. Possibly a urinalysis. Unless you tell a vet you want blood drawn to check for a specific issue, they will not do it. Nor will they really check the ears out and culture anything in there.
It is very good your wife is not scared of him. As far as resentful, she really needs to get over that. It is not the dog's fault, it is your own and hers. People have a nasty habit of showing their resentment, normally to the detriment of themselves.
As far as intellegence level, they are much smarter than a 3 year old. Believe me. Much smarter.
Take the advise you were given. Sign your wife up to do training classes with him. She will learn how to work with him and he will learn how to follow her lead and trust her decisions.
I am not trying to be harsh, just blunt. This dog lost his family, has a new one, and does not understand your expectations of him.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I don't have any insight on why he might have done such a thing. A person would really need to see it to evaluate body language on the part of your dog and your wife.
> 
> I think it's important to keep one thing in mind though. He is a dog. Being resentful when you don't understand why he did this will flow through in your attitude to him and he will know it. He doesn't understand resentment. Your wife may have startled him, hurt him, or something outside may have startled him and he reacted at that moment. He may have just been snapping in a playful manner.
> 
> ...


I agree with Jax's alpha comment. I am 5'6", my hubby is 6'3". Plus I also have a much higher voice than him. However, I am the "alpha" of the household. I work my dogs, train my dogs, do everything with them. My husband lays on the couch with them or slips them bites of food when he is cooking. He spoils them. I do too but I have expectations. Neither dog really listens to him. They use him as a play toy. Both dogs listen to me and follow me throughout the house.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are having this trouble. 

The dog is a senior, and there maybe all kinds of things this bewildered, aging dog is going through. 

I think you need to decide with your wife if you are going to be able to give the dog a second chance. I would not trust this dog around just anyone, he is old and he may not tolerate things as well as when he was younger, and we know that his threshold for a reaction is not very high. However, the dog showed restraint in his bite, it WAS a warning, not an attack. He was saying Back Off! Otherwise, there would be stitches involved. 

If the two of you cannot get over the fear that this may happen again, then do the old dog a favor and have him euthanized. Returning him to a rescue or dropping him at a shelter or rehoming him again, will be unsettling for him and the outcome will most likely be euthanasia anyway. And some places are not as humane in how they do it, and there is no reason for the dog to sit in a cage with other barking dogs around, waiting for days possibly. 

Whatever you decide to do, no one should give you any guff about it. Good luck to all of you. And welcome to the board.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

tooth extraction...might be some residual pain in his face???

SO GLAD to know your wife is going to the doc! oh yea, talk about scary...when they told me that if the IV antibiotics didn't take care of things they'd have to cut my hand open and _irrigate the tissue with antibiotics_...well let's just say they went and got me some valium really quick, lolol...


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

Your profile does not indicate where you live, but since your name is NoVAshepherd I will take a guess that you might be in Northern VA.

Just wanted to prepare you - the doctor is required to report a dog bite which means that they notify the county and the health department. The dog will probably have to be quarantined. (you can usually do this at your house)

I live in Loudoun County and every time I have gone to the hospital to have something sewn up, I have had notices from the county and the health department tacked to my door prior to my return from the hospital. Not trying to scare you, just wanting to let you know what you are in for.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

katieliz said:


> tooth extraction...might be some residual pain in his face???
> 
> SO GLAD to know your wife is going to the doc! oh yea, talk about scary...when they told me that if the IV antibiotics didn't take care of things they'd have to cut my hand open and _irrigate the tissue with antibiotics_...well let's just say they went and got me some valium really quick, lolol...


I was just going to say, how long ago was his dental work done? He may have some pain in that area, and your wife might just have hit the painful spot by mistake.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

jaggirl47 said:


> I agree with Jax's alpha comment. I am 5'6", my hubby is 6'3". Plus I also have a much higher voice than him. However, I am the "alpha" of the household. I work my dogs, train my dogs, do everything with them.


That is true. A lot of that "alpha" stuff IMO is total nonsense at best, and can harm the relationship with a dog at worst.
I am female, and my dogs also do not pay much attention to other people, even males in the household who are taller and have much deeper voices than I do. They can give commands in as deep a voice as they want but there's no guarantee my dogs will listen to them because my dogs are bonded to me, I am the provider and I am the one who trains them so they have learned to listen to me. 

As far as a dog giving more of a warning first, it is possible that the dog was punished in the past for growling or giving other warning signs. This can teach a dog to NOT give those warning signs and move straight to a bite more quickly.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

NovaShepherd said:


> If it had been provoked by something--say she had stepped on his tail--or if it had been a mere "warning shot" on the arm, I could understand that and work with it. But it's scary that he went from mellow to biting a member of the household with no provocation.


I would also like to offer my welcome. It sounds like your dog has the potential to be perfect in your home, and hopefully this incident is a road bump that can be overcome.

I am thinking that he has probably been giving out warnings right and left, but nothing that you and your wife would have recognized as such simply because he is so new to your home.

If he has bonded to you, he is going to let you take liberties with his body that he wouldn't necessarily allow your wife to take. It could be that he has been showing signs of unease with her handling him in the same way you do. It could be something as slight as a brief stiffening in his body, or a quick and nervous licking of his lips. I would be willing to bet that he has been doing something to show unease, and it has been lost in translation. Sometimes it happens so quickly that it takes a really expert pair of eyes to see it happen and to attach appropriate significance to it when it does.

This is where a good behaviorist will be invaluable. Hopefully you live in an area where a behaviorist is relatively easy to find. But even if you have to pay through the nose and have one travel a far distance to reach you, the effort to get someone experienced and capable in to help you will be key to how successful your dog will be in your home. 

Post your general location and perhaps members here who are active within their dog communities can provide you with a recommendation. This goes beyond anything a big box store "trainer" can offer you, so look specifically for a behaviorist.

I would also like to briefly mention the health aspect, too. Could he have an ear infection? If it has been a few weeks since he was in to have his teeth done, etc., since then a change in food could have led to allergies manifested by an ear infection. I am always a little hesitant to assign physical problems as the cause of an aggressive act, since in my experience there is more likely to be a behavioral issue underlying the act and not a physical issue. But...there have been some big changes in this dog's life recently and they could be causing physical issues to pop up. Is he more active in your home than he was in the previous home? Stairs in your home that he didn't have to deal with in the previous home?

Good luck! My advice would be to explore your options and work with a behaviorist before throwing in the towel with your guy. I know how hard it can be to work through the emotions you are both feeling right now! My own dog that I raised from an 11 week old puppy bit me in 2008 in an act of redirected aggression and I really had to think long and hard about how far I was willing to go with an 18 month old dog that would do that. You just can't NOT take it personally, right? But with many, many dogs you can get past it, given the right kind of support and expert guidance. 
Sheilah


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I agree with the possible residual dental pain, possible ear pain or just plain arthritis in the neck area. At 9 he is a senior.

My senior was about the same age the one and only time in his life he growled and air snapped at someone. It was when they were petting his head. If she had been leaning over him like you wife was she probably would of had similar injuries.

It has been 2 years and there has not been a repeat, but I am very gentle petting him, all I could think of was that it was a pain reaction of some kind, it was so out of character for him. 

Senior dogs I just kind of assume there are aches and pains and act accordingly. Dogs are stoic by nature and by the time they show pain it's pretty bad.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

OK, a few replies to some recent posts in this thread:

Jean: I don't know if he was ever crated. He doesn't seem to have any confinement issues; he's OK in the car, though he definitely is happier if someone sits in the back seat with him.

Kendra/Jax/ChicagoCanine: Interesting thoughts on the "alpha owner" theory. Perhaps you all are right. I had assumed that physical dominance would be part of it, but clearly your expieriences (e.g., petite wife trumps tall hubby) show it's not necessarily so. That's encouraging.

Remo: Good deduction there! Indeed, I'm in Arlington, VA. No idea if they'll come hunting us down, but I won't worry about it. If they want to quarantine him, then I guess we'd have no choice.

KatieLiz/Sheila/Wolfie's Mom: Re. an ear infection: I doubt it, but it's not impossible. The dental cleaning was April 8. We had him on preventive antiobiotics and painkillers the following week. I think the antibiotics would kill any ear infection present at the time, but I suppose he could have picked up one since then. He shows no signs of discomfort, however.

Selzer: Believe it or not, he's never seemed the least bit bewildered--at least not after the first three days. We'd thought we were all in a fairly predictable routine of behaviors. But obviously we did something wrong. Thanks for the advice and support.

We did change his food when we adopted him, but not dramatically. He was initially on Avoderm Lite, then we put him on C&P Ultramix, and now we have him on Blue Wilderness. (He was on chicken/rice after the surgery.) He seems to like them all equally--though he ignores the dried fruit flakes in the Ultramix.

I will see about a behaviorist and/or trainer. If anyone knows of a good one in Northern VA, please feel free to suggest someone!

And I'll post a pic as soon as I can.

Thanks, all.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I know the OP has reiterated several times that the dog has a clean bill of health, but I do not see any mention of taking the dog to the vet AFTER this bite happens, or plans to do so. I would definitely make a vet appointment to RULE OUT any possible health issues.

The first thing I would have the veterinarian check out would be the site of the extracted tooth and the area around it. Just because the tooth has been extracted does not mean that there is no potential for pain and infection. There are a variety of issues that can happen on the site of a tooth extraction that can be quite painful and could have been the underlying cause of this bite. 

(For what it's worth, I've had all four of my wisdom teeth out as a teenager and two of the sites became infected. It was VERY painful. I can only imagine how bad it would be for a dog who cannot communicate to you that, "Ouch! This REALLY hurts.")

If he didn't eat this morning and hasn't eaten or has eaten only little since this happened last night, I would be even more concerned about this being a dental thing. Just a thought.

Definitely make a vet appointment and have him checked out. Teeth first. Ears next. Bloodwork after if none of this yields any results. All the training and "alpha" stuff in the world won't make a difference if this is medical.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

AbbyK9 said:


> I know the OP has reiterated several times that the dog has a clean bill of health, but I do not see any mention of taking the dog to the vet AFTER this bite happens, or plans to do so. I would definitely make a vet appointment to RULE OUT any possible health issues.


OK, you have me convinced! We will take him in for a checkup. Thanks for the advice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

NovaShepherd said:


> O
> KatieLiz/Sheila/Wolfie's Mom: Re. an ear infection: I doubt it, but it's not impossible. The dental cleaning was April 8. We had him on preventive antiobiotics and painkillers the following week. I think the antibiotics would kill any ear infection present at the time, but I suppose he could have picked up one since then.


I don't have much to add since everyone's got this pretty much covered except that many dog ear infections are YEAST infections. It is very common for dogs (and people!) to get a yeast infection after a round of antibiotics, since the abx kills off both bad and good bacteria, and bacteria control the balance of yeast. Without the bacteria present, the yeast thrive and the balance is thrown off. One of my dogs was on antibiotics for a staph infection on the skin and it caused an uncomfortable yeast infection in her ears. I use an ear solution (meant to be dropped in the ear and massaged, I don't use liquids that flood the ear, potentially forcing yeast deeper into the canal) that is anti-bacterial *and* anti-fungal so it treats yeast. Zymox or Mometamax, both of these do this. You put a few drops in the ear(s) once a day and massage so it can coat the yeast. A vet can swab the ear and tell you for sure though.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

While I do believe it was just a case of not being properly bonded to your wife and an invasion of space so to speak, I will give you an example of ear infections. 

A couple of months ago I started having issues with my foster having weird aggression towards my dog Dharma. She would jump from a sound sleep and charge after her, barking and growling. Never bit her and never directed at me. It was odd and since it started at the same time she was being worked up for nosebleeds I was really concerned. At the time I was seeing 2 vets, her regular vet and a specialist. The specialist blew it off and told me it was behavioral. I didn't feel it was since it started out of the blue and it was completely random when it would happen. I took her to her regular vet and was told the same thing try a trainer but she did find that Tessa had ear infections. She did check her thyroid though.

I had to treat the infections externally for 2 weeks. While Tessa is a VERY tolerant girl, she didn't like that much and getting her to hold still wasn't fun but she never was aggressive or anything like that. Amazingly enough once the ear infections were gone the weird episodes of aggression disappeared. Even her vet was surprised. We guess maybe she couldn't hear or was uncomfortable and was reacting. 

While the situations are different, my point is that sometimes there can be a physical ailment bothering these dogs that we really have no clue about. Neither the vet or I had any idea Tessa's ears were bothering her. She gave no outward sign and she certainly couldn't say "hey my ears are hurting/stopped up". It was only when the vet looked in that she found they were full of nasty junk. 

So it just always a good idea to start there and rule that out. And as someone else mentioned sometimes the first sign of an out of whack thyroid is a change in behavior.

And it is good to have another Va member on here!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just a thought about the trainer/behaviorist -- be careful how you approach the conversation. If at all write a concise e-mail to them stating specifically the course of events since you got the dog, include the vet visit(s), your routine with the dog, and the incident. 

I made the mistake of calling a trainer and telling her I wanted to sign my dog up for classes because he had started barking and lunging at other dogs at the pet store. This was 100% true, the dog had just turned one year, and had gone through a set of training classes previously with no issues. 

The problem was that the trainer translated my barking and lunging toward other dogs as "has attacked three dogs already, nearly killing one and is growling and snapping at people." My guess is that in general, people do not consider training until the dog has committed repeated felonies, and then they minimize and make excuses for the behavior. And a dog that needs a little more socialization will be subjected to many expensive, fruitless, private lessons because of it. 

I guess what I am saying is to definitely provide the whole story, clearly as possible, and discuss the plan for dealing with the problem. 

I hope I did not make this more confusing.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Your dog sounds like a nice dog. Everyone has great advice on this board. 

Think about this problem in a logical way

My advice is not to play "kissy face" with a dog you barely know.

I still do not play kissy face with my husky rescue..he just is not that kind of dog. Your dog just may not like it.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> Thanks so much for all these words of sympathy and encouragement--and your firsthand experiences. This is a great forum!
> 
> I see now that I'm to blame in a couple of ways--in too often taking the lead and being the "alpha owner" and in failing to tell my wife not to cup his head--something I've done as well. (The thing is, we've done that innumerable times, along with nuzzling him, hugging him, etc., and he's never objected. I've even playfully growled into his neck-fur as he was lying there--no reaction. Growing up, I can remember that if I annoyed our dog by petting her when she was trying to sleep, she would give me plenty of warning growls, followed at worst by an air snap if I pushed it.)
> 
> ...


My Meika would latch on to my husbands arm from time to time if he was hugging me, she drew blood a few times. I made the appropriate changes (showing her I was leader) and it stopped.
My Max has bitten my son and husband on different occasions. 
Dogs snap sometimes. I treat them with care and stay calm. To me, a snap or bite is like a teenager screaming in your face. Its rude and not appropriate, it does need addressed but isn't the end of the world.

Personally, I would keep the dog as relaxed as possible, a routine is helpful. I would not be using a dremel tool on an adopted senior nails if he acts nervous.( could he have associated the tool with your wife?)
I have 3 adopted dogs and they take time getting to know you. You have to take the good with the bad. Get him some training w/ your wife involved and this will help you both bond with him.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I don't have much to add since everyone's got this pretty much covered except that many dog ear infections are YEAST infections. It is very common for dogs (and people!) to get a yeast infection after a round of antibiotics, since the abx kills off both bad and good bacteria, and bacteria control the balance of yeast. Without the bacteria present, the yeast thrive and the balance is thrown off. One of my dogs was on antibiotics for a staph infection on the skin and it caused an uncomfortable yeast infection in her ears. I use an ear solution (meant to be dropped in the ear and massaged, I don't use liquids that flood the ear, potentially forcing yeast deeper into the canal) that is anti-bacterial *and* anti-fungal so it treats yeast. Zymox or Mometamax, both of these do this. You put a few drops in the ear(s) once a day and massage so it can coat the yeast. A vet can swab the ear and tell you for sure though.


 
This is pretty much what I was going to say.  Ear infections 99% of the time is caused by yeast, not bacteria. My 10 1/2 year old gets them within a day if he eats something he shouldn't. While he has never snapped at any of us when he has an infection, it is clear he is uncomfortable. If my kids mess with his ears, he will whine and get away quickly.
Also, besides a round of antibiotics, food is one of the biggest culprits of ear infections. That is just an FYI.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Thanks for the additional replies. Chris, Liesje, Debbi, Kendra, great advice; we will be sure to have the vet check for any kind of ear/mouth infection.

Question on punishment: Immediately after the bite, we scolded him and put him outside. Since then, we've not given him any affection whatsoever. We want to make sure he has a negative association with his action. But how long is a GSD's memory? And if he does have a mental image of what he did that occasionally pops up in his mind, is there any way to know if he would associate that memory with a punishment or denial of privileges that occurs more than a few minutes later?

(The other reason we're reluctant to give affection is that my wife is still angry--her face still hurts, and now her shoulder hurts from the tetanus booster--and while I would perhaps cave and pet him again, I want him to bond with her.)

I think we're making progress, btw. Last night she let him in from the backyard, ignoring her command to sit. He raced down to the basement to see me; I ignored him. She then commanded him back upstairs and commanded him again to sit, which he did. She's using a sterner voice than her previously very sweet voice (which always came off as more of a request than a command). Already he's more obedient toward her.

PS: Krystyne, my wife was never around when I tried the dremel. What's odd is that at Petsmart, he doesn't seem to mind it. (We spy on him from outside the grooming center.)

Selzer, thanks for the advice on the trainers. Not confusing at all. If we go that route, I will be sure to be very specific and give the full picture.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Please do not stop giving him affection. By now he has absolutely no idea why you all are upset with him. Your wife is going to have to get past her anger. It is not the dog's fault.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> Please do not stop giving him affection. By now he has absolutely no idea why you all are upset with him. Your wife is going to have to get past her anger. It is not the dog's fault.


Absolutely true. Remember the 3-second rule. If you scold the dog more than 3 seconds after the offense he/she has no idea what you are up to and it only creates distrust. Dogs don't hold a grudge, they move on... a good lesson for people.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

jaggirl47 said:


> Please do not stop giving him affection. By now he has absolutely no idea why you all are upset with him. Your wife is going to have to get past her anger. It is not the dog's fault.


She'll get past it, but let's keep in mind: She was giving him affection, and then suddenly he bit her in the face. I'm sure time will help, but she has a right to not immediately feel warmth toward him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

A dog only associates things within 3 seconds. My trainer told me there are studies on this that I'm sure she could dig up if you feel it's necessary. Your dog has no idea why he is now an outcast. You are continuing to punish him for something that you don't even know if the action was on a deliberate show of aggression, a reaction to something or if it was just an accident. As smart as these dogs are, they don't speak English so can't reason through why you are ignoring him.

I"m not seeing how commanding him to be with her is helping a relationship. You really need to hire a behaviorist. You build a relationship by playing, training and being fair. From your posts, it doesn't sound like any of that is happening. 

I don't have time to get in to what my trainer has me doing to strenghten my relationship with Jax. If you would like to know, send me a PM and I'll reply when I get a minute.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> She'll get past it, but let's keep in mind: She was giving him affection, and then suddenly he bit her in the face. I'm sure time will help, but she has a right to not immediately feel warmth toward him.


Yes he did. However, she put her face in his 2 days ago. He is a dog. He has no idea why you guys are upset with him. Your wife is going to have to get over it or the resentment will build. This can and will be even more damaging in her relationship with the dog. If you guys cannot move past it and actually work on building trust with the dog, you really need to look deep and figure out what would be best for the dog. I personally would not want to live in a house where I was treated with anger and resentment but have no clue to why.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> Yes he did. However, she put her face in his 2 days ago. He is a dog. He has no idea why you guys are upset with him. Your wife is going to have to get over it or the resentment will build. This can and will be even more damaging in her relationship with the dog. If you guys cannot move past it and actually work on building trust with the dog, you really need to look deep and figure out what would be best for the dog. I personally would not want to live in a house where I was treated with anger and resentment but have no clue to why.


I completely agree with this.

Poor old guy.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

OK, fair point; we wouldn't want him to be confused. But how does anyone *know* what they remember? Have there been experiments establishing how long they retain this kind of association?

I'm sure we'll get back to being affectionate toward him in time. My wife just needs time to get over the bite and feeling, well, attacked for offering affection. And as others have advised here, I should back off and let her bond with him.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> She'll get past it, but let's keep in mind: She was giving him affection, and then suddenly he bit her in the face. I'm sure time will help, but she has a right to not immediately feel warmth toward him.


Sure she does. We all have different rates of recovery. People are just saying that the dog was over it a minute after it happened and is probably wondering why these people don't love me like they did a couple days ago.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, there have been studies. See my post above.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> OK, fair point; we wouldn't want him to be confused. But how does anyone *know* what they remember? Have there been experiments establishing how long they retain this kind of association?
> 
> I'm sure we'll get back to being affectionate toward him in time. My wife just needs time to get over the bite and feeling, well, attacked for offering affection. And as others have advised here, I should back off and let her bond with him.


 
I will give an example of what happened last night here at my house. My almost 11 month old basically mauled my hubby last night when he came home from work. She got overly excited and bit the crap out of his ear. Not on purpose. Her teeth just started going trying to love on him. She drew blood. She then jumped on his nether region. My hubby got up (after the initial painful ows), cleaned up his ear, got over his nausea, came back to the couch and started giving her a tummy rub.
If your dog wanted to actually hurt your wife, she would have been hurt.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

To me I'm fine going a few more then 3 minutes but not constant scolding or anything but not all lovey dovey and playing with the dog. However, it has been days she can't just keep ignoring him. I haven't read every page (first 3 or so then last 2) but I think you guys need to figure out what you mean by "affection" hugging on a dog in doggy terms isn't affection (as others have stated) so no, no one is asking your wife to hug and cuddle the dog but there is so much more to affection for them. A nice chest scratch where she can be far enough back to read body language or just training for bonding. Have her grab toys treats whatever he likes best and some simple basic obediance commands will help them bond and is attention to the dog. IMO attention and affection go hand in hand if you are paying the dog attention and doing things with the dog hes going to view it as love basically. I really agree with others you don't have to trust him or be all over him with affection however if after a few days you can't forgive him enough and realize you have just as much blame in this then you really need to think about whats best for the dog. 

Think about a child. You might ground them for a week for doing something bad but you don't stop loving them and giving them attention for that long because it's just mean now think about it from the perspective of someone who doesn't even speak your language they have no clue why you are suddenly an enemy. You can supervise everything for your wifes peace of mind and safety but have her hold the leash and walk him, definitely training, go out back and play ball (definitely affection for the dog) just play with him to show him you love him.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

jaggirl47 said:


> I will give an example of what happened last night here at my house. My almost 11 month old basically mauled my hubby last night when he came home from work. She got overly excited and bit the crap out of his ear. Not on purpose. Her teeth just started going trying to love on him. She drew blood. She then jumped on his nether region. My hubby got up (after the initial painful ows), cleaned up his ear, got over his nausea, came back to the couch and started giving her a tummy rub.
> If your dog wanted to actually hurt your wife, she would have been hurt.


But was your dog just being affectionate? Or was she being aggressive? What was so hurtful to us was that this wasn't a play-bite gone wrong but an expression of actual hostility. I know--he's a dog. I can't read too much into it. I'm just explaining why it was so emotionally hurtful to my wife.

I do appreciate the candor from everyone here.

Anyway: If I start petting him again, will that interfere with the bonding he needs to do with my wife? Or should I merely step back from feeding/walking/giving commands?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, there have been studies. See my post above.


yup, see my post above your post


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

NovaShepherd said:


> But was your dog just being affectionate? Or was she being aggressive? What was so hurtful to us was that this wasn't a play-bite gone wrong but an expression of actual hostility. I know--he's a dog. I can't read too much into it. I'm just explaining why it was so emotionally hurtful to my wife.
> 
> I do appreciate the candor from everyone here.
> 
> Anyway: If I start petting him again, will that interfere with the bonding he needs to do with my wife? Or should I merely step back from feeding/walking/giving commands?


1. Your wife needs to be the bigger person. Since she's the only person in the equation it seems like it should be easy BUT we aren't as good as our dogs most of the time!  I KNOW I am not. 

2. These are the kinds of questions to ask your behaviorist - PM Remo - she may know of some - after the vet visit. 

If you are doing the three day ignore part of NILIF (which I hate and cut down considerably) just ask for a sit before petting. But get some real eyes on the real dog because we can't really give much more advice online without possibly mucking things up for your dog. And that's why you need to make sure to get a GOOD person who you meet and see with other dogs before letting them near yours. Because as much as we can screw up online, so can a person who decides to crank and yank or hang your dog in person, etc.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Holmeshx2 said:


> A nice chest scratch where she can be far enough back to read body language or just training for bonding. Have her grab toys treats whatever he likes best and some simple basic obediance commands will help them bond and is attention to the dog. ...You can supervise everything for your wifes peace of mind and safety but have her hold the leash and walk him, definitely training, go out back and play ball (definitely affection for the dog) just play with him to show him you love him.


Everything you say makes sense. What's frustrating for us is that we'd been doing exactly those things before this happened; she would sometimes take the leash. She would often give him a treat but make him sit and shake for it. She would give him a lot of affection. It definitely wasn't like I was the only commander/enforcer and she was the only love-giver.

Anyway--sorry if I'm beating this thread to death. You've all been so incredibly helpful. All the advice will help us tremendously. I will implore my wife to let go her resentment and feeling hurt, and we will do our best to get back on track with our pup.

Thanks again.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> What was so hurtful to us was that this wasn't a play-bite gone wrong but an expression of actual hostility. I know--he's a dog. I can't read too much into it. I'm just explaining why it was so emotionally hurtful to my wife.


I can totally understand why your wife (and yourself) are hurt by what happened. I think what people are trying to explain is that the dog has already forgotten the incident so now he's hurt that his people are ignoring him and he doesn't know why.

Ignoring him can be part of the rehabilitation process and is sometimes used in more extreme versions of NILIF (have you looked that up?). What you guys need to figure out is what the bite means to you and how you want to proceed. Once you know that you are committed 100% to fixing the situation then you need to come up with a plan of action that you both will follow. I honestly think it would be best if you had a behaviorist help you decide on that plan of action.

Did you ever mention where you got him?



NovaShepherd said:


> Anyway: If I start petting him again, will that interfere with the bonding he needs to do with my wife? Or should I merely step back from feeding/walking/giving commands?


IMO, no. I think you both need to step up leadership but more so your wife. He can have affection from both of you either when you freely give it or when he has done something to earn it, just not on his terms. Your wife should be feeding him (possibly by hand if it's safe) and walking and training more than you.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> But was your dog just being affectionate? Or was she being aggressive? What was so hurtful to us was that this wasn't a play-bite gone wrong but an expression of actual hostility.


But you weren't there to witness it. You could have had a different view of it than your wife. You may have noticed something that she didn't and she got bit for it.

We dont know why this dog bit her, did she make a threatening move? Did she accidently hurt him when she went to hug him without noticing? Did she move in to hug him and one of his favorite toys was by him? Was he truly being aggressive towards her, but then again his bite would have been more severe?

My best friend's dog just bit someone. She told me the story of what happened and she put the blame on the guy who got bit, but I knew that it was her fault, there is no doubt about it that it was her fault and I told her that and she doesn't see it that way. 

Some people dont notice their mistakes or some people intentionally get defensive and act like they did nothing wrong when it was indeed their fault (not saying that your wife did any of this just saying some people do that).

If you were there you could have noticed warnings that she didn't notice. You never know, but to continue to punish the dog or ignore the dog days after the incident is mean, he doesn't understand why you are acting this way. 

If you guys dont trust him or cant get over this then he needs to find a new home.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> But was your dog just being affectionate? Or was she being aggressive? What was so hurtful to us was that this wasn't a play-bite gone wrong but an expression of actual hostility. I know--he's a dog. I can't read too much into it. I'm just explaining why it was so emotionally hurtful to my wife.
> 
> I do appreciate the candor from everyone here.
> 
> Anyway: If I start petting him again, will that interfere with the bonding he needs to do with my wife? Or should I merely step back from feeding/walking/giving commands?


No, she was not being aggressive. My point is, she did something she was not supposed to do, used her teeth and hurt a family member. Immediate discipline is what she got, then within 5 minutes, my hubby was petting her and she was calm.
This was not really an "expression of hostility". He did not want your wife in her face. He warned her, that was all. If it was actual hostility, your wife would have been in the hospital. The dog cannot just look at her and tell her "stop hugging me lady".
You have to remember, this is a senior dog pulled away from his family that he has known his entire life. He was thrust into a new home, with new owners, new expectations. You two have not had him long enough to know and understand his quirks, what he likes, and what he doesn't like. You two do not know his body language. You also have not gained his trust.
As far as your last question, you need to get a trainer so you both can learn to work with the dog. He will not understand and will be upset if you just completely ignore him.
Just as an FYI, I have been bit by several dogs. I used to work at my city's Humane Society. Never once did I blame any of the dogs that bit me. You know why? It was my fault. I allowed myself to be put in a position to get bitten. Normal, non-aggressive dogs will bite if they are past their comfort zones. It is how they communicate when you do not pay attention or just do not recognize the subtle hints they give us.
Have you taken him to the vet yet to get checked up?


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## SunKissedRider (Apr 25, 2011)

NovaShepherd said:


> She'll get past it, but let's keep in mind: She was giving him affection, and then suddenly he bit her in the face. *I'm sure time will help, but she has a right to not immediately feel warmth toward him.*


 
Not really. Yea, it sucks, she got bit, but she was the one who put her face in his, which really is quite a rude gesture and not something I'd do with "newly" (yes under 6 months is still new) adopted dog. 

I know you've said multiple times that you've done it before and so has she, and the dog should have given a warning, but seriously, that WAS a warning. If he was just going after her full blow, she'd be in a LOT more serious condition. I really do echo another member who said you guys should read "The other end of the leash". It's a fabulous book and will help you to realize your dog CAN'T understand why you're not giving him affection. 

Think of the whole putting your face into his thing like this: 

If you had just met your wife's family and every time you went over there, her brother (who was an adult) greeted you with a derogatory comment, or a push/shove, you'd get irritated. You might not say something the first or second or third or even seventh time, but eventually you're going to get fed up, and let him know that you don't like it. Are you going to pommel him into the ground til he ends up in ICU? No, but you'd probably yell at him or push him back. 

That's all your dog was doing. Nothing more, and absolutely not something you should still be irritated/not showing affection over. If that's how its going to be with him, you should really consider if he's best for your home, as its not fair to him.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> I can totally understand why your wife (and yourself) are hurt by what happened. I think what people are trying to explain is that the dog has already forgotten the incident so now he's hurt that his people are ignoring him and he doesn't know why.


Thank you. And I'm 100% on board that he's forgotten why we're alienated.

Re. NILIF: Someone helpfully defined it in the thread, but I haven't done any research on it yet. I will do so.

I also plan to look into a behaviorist in the DC area--but a vet checkup will be first, to rule out a yeast or other infection.

We got him from a young woman who was leaving the country to work in Europe for a federal contractor. She didn't give any detailed info on where she got him, though we didn't really demand it. I think he was with a family before her, and then suppsedly he was an assistance dog for a boy at some point--though I've always wondered why a GSD/greyhound mix (who I'd assumed came about by accident) would be chosen to be an assistance dog. Seems like it's always a purebred GSD, Lab, or Golden, far as I can tell.



gsdraven said:


> I think you both need to step up leadership but more so your wife. He can have affection from both of you either when you freely give it or when he has done something to earn it, just not on his terms. Your wife should be feeding him (possibly by hand if it's safe) and walking and training more than you.


Will do!


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

SunKissedRider said:


> Think of the whole putting your face into his thing like this:
> 
> If you had just met your wife's family and every time you went over there, her brother (who was an adult) greeted you with a derogatory comment, or a push/shove, you'd get irritated. You might not say something the first or second or third or even seventh time, but eventually you're going to get fed up, and let him know that you don't like it. Are you going to pommel him into the ground til he ends up in ICU? No, but you'd probably yell at him or push him back.
> 
> That's all your dog was doing. Nothing more, and absolutely not something you should still be irritated/not showing affection over. If that's how its going to be with him, you should really consider if he's best for your home, as its not fair to him.


That all makes perfect sense--but what about when he's come over while I'm sitting on the couch and licked my nose or cheek? Isn't that "getting in the other dog's/person's face" in dog language?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> But was your dog just being affectionate? Or was she being aggressive? What was so hurtful to us was that this wasn't a play-bite gone wrong but an expression of actual hostility. I know--he's a dog. I can't read too much into it. I'm just explaining why it was so emotionally hurtful to my wife.


But you don't know that is was an act of 'hostility'. Dogs don't think like that. Your wife may have hurt him and he reacted. There may have been something else that startled him and he reacted. He may have just turned at the wrong time and caught her with his teeth. He may have been trying to give her a warning and didn't realize he didn't have the room because she was right there in his face. If your dog wanted to hurt her, she would have needed stitches at the very least.

You are not going to get anywhere with him until you get past associating human emotions on him. While it may have been emotionally hurtful to your wife, she needs to get past that and be a bit more forgiving. Animals are animals. They can not reason like we can.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yep. Usually in submission. 

Get the Turid Rugas DVD I linked to. I thought it was a bit of a snooze but you are essentially needing to learn an entire 'nother language and it is good info.

Here's a picture - puppy getting in adult dog's face to give kisses:









There is a whole process they follow before getting into the face - those that are taught dog manners by other dogs. But regardless of whether they have learned this dog to dog they all know it's rude to have it done to them. And we typically don't follow that same process, we don't get sideways, wiggle our butts, put our ears back and head down, eyes averted and mouth open giving the dog ample opportunity to signal their displeasure as seen here - DO NOT touch me young man:









Dogs are smart!


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## SunKissedRider (Apr 25, 2011)

NovaShepherd said:


> That all makes perfect sense--but what about when he's come over while I'm sitting on the couch and licked my nose or cheek? Isn't that "getting in the other dog's/person's face" in dog language?


 
Does he put his leg over your head/shoulder? I'm willing to bet he doesn't. In "dog" the combo of putting a leg over the head/shoulder and being in someone's space means "I'm a "higher" rank over you, be submissive to me" 

Where as licking the face is actually a form of submission. 

AND 

this is your wife we're talking about, not you. Clearly you're relationship with him is different than your wife's which is why so many have said that your wife should do all the feeding, walking, training, etc.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> That all makes perfect sense--but what about when he's come over while I'm sitting on the couch and licked my nose or cheek? Isn't that "getting in the other dog's/person's face" in dog language?


This is a lot less invasive than hugging. Licking another dog's face is a form of submission where putting paws over a dog's back is a form of dominance. Two completely different actions in the dog world although pretty similiar to us humans.

Jax08 is right. You need to stop putting human emotions onto him. They think, act and relate differently than we do. I know she recommend the book The Other End of the Leash to you. I think it would be a great book for you to read to learn more about how dogs relate to one another and to humans. 

You might also look into the video Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas. It shows you different behaviors in dogs and what they mean. Here's a clip from it.




 
I took too long typing and Jean beat me to it!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> That all makes perfect sense--but what about when he's come over while I'm sitting on the couch and licked my nose or cheek? Isn't that "getting in the other dog's/person's face" in dog language?


that is actually a sign of submission. Jax loves to lick my chin, nose, mouth. When I turn my head to avoid it she will move around until she can reach it. I don't know why that is but if you watch dog relate to other dogs, licking another dog's mouth and chin is a sign of submission for them.

Leaning over a dog is a sign of dominance. Dogs do NOT like to be hugged. They may submit to it but they don't really like it. It's not normal to them. Your wife did both. Read The Other End of the Leash. It explains all of this in it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> OK, fair point; we wouldn't want him to be confused. But how does anyone *know* what they remember? Have there been experiments establishing how long they retain this kind of association?
> 
> I'm sure we'll get back to being affectionate toward him in time.* My wife just needs time to get over the bite and feeling, well, attacked for offering affection. And as others have advised here, I should back off and let her bond with him*.


I truly don't want to be rude. But, Good Lord, your wife wasn't attacked! If at worst, she was warned. (And I'm not totally convinced even that took place.) We are talking about a dog here. Not another human. She wasn't attacked for offering affection, she was warned for her action, not her feeling. 

If your dog seriously didn't like your wife, or seriously wanted to do her harm we'd be talking about why your dog was PTS, while you were looking for a plastic surgeon. 

I have horses - I've been kicked, bit, stepped on and was even thrown once and broke my back. They are animals.

I have dogs - I've been bitten, thrown up on , pooped on, tripped and ignored. They are animals. 

If you or your wife are unwilling to move forward then it would be best to find another home for your boy.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> My wife just needs time to get over the bite and *feeling*, well, attacked for offering affection. And as others have advised here, I should back off and let her bond with him.





Lilie said:


> I truly don't want to be rude. But, Good Lord, your wife wasn't attacked! If at worst, she was warned.


You know, I had the same reaction when I first read that but I re-read and saw that Nova said feeling attacked. It's totally valid that she feels attacked. She trusted the dog enough to put her face in his and it didn't work out.

I agree this wasn't an attack or she'd be much worse off but *feeling* attacked is valid. And she needs to work on overcoming those feelings and learning to trust the dog again.

Just felt it was important enough to throw my 3 cents in on that comment.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I had this exact same thing happen with Heidi. She was eight years old, I had her since she was a puppy and she was completely devoted to me. Except that she bit me on three different occasions in the face, just as your dog did. I posted on here about it, got a lot of good ideas, brought in my trainer for advice, had her checked by the vet and developed a few theories of my own. My final verdict is that Heidi simply has a problem with faces coming towards her. We have never had another problem with her, but we don't put our face down to her and we warn everyone else who comes in contact with her not to do that. If we have children around who aren't reliable on this or who are the height that their face is even with Heidi's, we lock Heidi up for the duration of their visit. For us, it is just a management issue.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> You know, I had the same reaction when I first read that but I re-read and saw that Nova said feeling attacked. It's totally valid that she feels attacked. She trusted the dog enough to put her face in his and it didn't work out.
> 
> I agree this wasn't an attack or she'd be much worse off but *feeling* attacked is valid. And she needs to work on overcoming those feelings and learning to trust the dog again.
> 
> Just felt it was important enough to throw my 3 cents in on that comment.


Very true, I didn't notice and should have read it twice. She does have a right to feel the way she does. But I feel so bad for the dog being punished for stepping on their *feelings*.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Very true, I didn't notice and should have read it twice. She does have a right to feel the way she does. But I feel so bad for the dog being punished for stepping on their *feelings*.


My wife has two puncture wounds on her face and one more mark that didn't break the skin. Her face was swollen the next day. Sure, it could've been worse, but saying it was nothing more than "stepping on feelings" is inaccurate.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> My wife has two puncture wounds on her face and one more mark that didn't break the skin. Her face was swollen the next day. Sure, it could've been worse, but saying it was nothing more than "stepping on feelings" is inaccurate.


But that is exactly what you guys are doing now. This happened 2 days ago. You have to let it go and move on with the dog.
From the sound of it, you guys are the 4th home this dog has had. Am I correct on this?

Let's put this in a different terminology. Think of if you guys were foster parents. You have a 13 year old child who was removed or given up at age 7 or so by his birth parents. This child has been moved several times to different foster homes due to no fault of his own. He acts out when you have him as a young teenager because you do something he does not like or just does not understand. Would you continue to harbor ill will towards this child? Or would you try to work through it to establish a relationship everyone understands?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> My wife has two puncture wounds on her face and one more mark that didn't break the skin. Her face was swollen the next day. Sure, it could've been worse, but saying it was nothing more than "stepping on feelings" is inaccurate.


I'm sorry if I've upset you. That was not my intention, truly. I'm sure that it must have scared both of you very badly. I do hope the best for you and your wife. I hope both of you feel better soon.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

novashepherd, i don't want to beat this thread to death either BUT, please, your wife was not attacked for offering affection:

she was "told" in the only way the dog knows how to tell her that she had violated his space/boundaries, for whatever reason. there is something wrong here. i keep getting the "feeling" that your wife (and maybe you) cannot accept the fact that the responsibility for what happened is her's. it seems you are having difficulty accepting the fact that dogs are instinctual not emotional beings, and do not "do" things with the same kind of "reasoning" and "thought" that humans do. 

i have been very supportive of you but i totally disagree that your wife has the "right to feel the way she does" and it has nothing to do with how severe or non-severe her injury is. she made a mistake. unknowingly and not with malice, but she made a mistake and she must own the responsibility for this mistake.

and...about punishing a dog for something they did more than just a short amount of time previously (3 minutes, whatever number of minutes), it's one of the very first things you learn when you read any kind of training or behavioral book. that is why, when housebreaking, you must catch them in the act.

once your wife truly accepts the responsibility for what happened, her anger at the dog will be gone. and i'm going to ask a question here that may ruffle your feathers a bit...is there ANY possibility that your wife is jealous of the dog or resentful of the relationship you have with the dog or underneath it all does not like or want the dog. is there possibly something else that she's angry at and she's displacing this anger onto the bite situation. because truthfully, her anger and the way she's holding on to it, seems inappropriate to me.

i apologize if my post is offensive to you in any way, my primary motivation for being on this board is, and always will be, to help the dogs (or to help the humans help the dogs).


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Lilie, thank you for that.

KatieLiz, nope, not offended. We get it that he's just a dog, that this is his instinctive reaction, etc. I guess I am taken aback somewhat by a focus on the semantics of what the word "attack" means. Of course I recognize that if we restrict that to mean only a full-blown, 100% assault, then no. But the normal use of the word would be any intent to injure. Neither of us believes he meant to seriously hurt her, but he did mean to bite her.

Anyway--the fault is really mine. I've grown up with dogs; my wife hasn't. She didn't know this was a dog no-no. It was on me to emphasize that you don't get in their face--but I'd always thought that if the dog lets you do it, then that dog is OK with it from there on out. Obviously, I was wrong on that; he probably was annoyed every time and didn't react till this time. And when I should've given the leash to her, too many times I've just monopolized the walking. And even then walked the dog faster than she walks, because both the dog and I are fast walkers.

My wife is a forgiving person; she will get over it. She knows it wasn't personal. But this is her first dog. It was pretty unnerving. Had her head been turned the wrong way or she not been wearing glasses, he could've injured her eye.

Kendra, that's a good metaphor. As to number of owners, I'm not sure, but we're at least the third, possibly the fourth.

OK--thanks again to everyone.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> Lilie, thank you for that.
> 
> KatieLiz, nope, not offended. We get it that he's just a dog, that this is his instinctive reaction, etc. I guess I am taken aback somewhat by a focus on the semantics of what the word "attack" means. Of course I recognize that if we restrict that to mean only a full-blown, 100% assault, then no. But the normal use of the word would be any intent to injure.
> 
> ...


 
Just keep in mind, when the dog is on a leash it is to walk the pace you want it to. Please take the dog to training so your wife works with him.
Just another question...has she ever been around dogs? Could she have a fear of them?


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## gracieGSD (Jan 10, 2011)

Very sorry for the injuries to your wifes face, that cannot be fun. 

What does she want to do about the dog. If she is (reasonably so) uncomfortable with the dog, you should make her happy and rehome. I see that there are many people who believe that extroidinary measures should be taken to rehab and help the dog, but this boy crossed the line. A puncture wound is not a warning shot. At his age, he knows his bite force. Full on and it would have been much worse, I know. 

If I read correctly, she was only going in for a qucik nuzzle, as she has before. Not arms around his shoulders hugging him. And I'm guessing that you are usually present when she has done this before. But without you there, he thought he could get away with it....yes they know when we are watching. 

I am in favor of helping dogs whenever possible, but this situation is unacceptable IMHO. Your lovely wife should not have to bear the burdon of this dogs unfortunate history.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> ...
> Has anyone here ever had a dog bite a family member? Not a nip or an air-snap but an actual bite that drew blood?


Yep, several times.... Should have gotten stitches on at least a couple. Everytime it's happened to me, the very second it happens, the first thing that pops into my head was "I had that comming!" 



Lilie said:


> I have horses - I've been kicked, bit, stepped on and was even thrown once and broke my back. They are animals.
> 
> I have dogs - I've been bitten, thrown up on , pooped on, tripped and ignored. They are animals.
> 
> If you or your wife are unwilling to move forward then it would be best to find another home for your boy.


I can second that! (and third and fourth it!) Having cattle, goats, sheep, chickens, and dogs... I've been there and done nearly all of that. (did't break my back, but I did get kicked and broke a hand, got to wear a cast for 8 weeks, and the only thing I could think about how it happened was "I should have not put my hand out like that when catching that baby calf")

I've said on many occassion, getting peed and pooped on by animals keeps me humble. There is no malace or fore thought involved by those animals in those actions. They don't think, "how can I make the human miserable today".

Dogs live in the moment. If you or your wife feels "betrayed by", or "attacked by", as if there was some sort of forethought or schemes involved by an animals that just lives in the moment... then I would recomend reading up, or watching a video on dog behavior. It could be helpful. The dog being passed around from owner to owner will damage the dog mentally to an extent, and it's something they remember even though they live in the moment. (same with abusing a dog, they remember that, but they don't thought process it the same way us humans do)

Dogs speek volumes all the time in body language, and just like American Sign Language, if we don't learn to read those signals, and correctly translate them, we will get the wrong message every time. 

I used to think my border collie yawning was just her being tired, and she was tired a lot. I was informed a while back that sometimes a yawn isn't just a yawn. Sometimes it is doggy language. When being confronted, a yawn is a disarming gesture, a non confrontational gesture. It says "I'm neither a threat to you, nor am I threatened by you". Sure enough, watching her after I learned that, I could see her yawning when approached by a strange dog. Hmmm..... I learned something new.

A couple years ago, the night before a big dinner party that I was to host, I was playing with my black lab. I got him too worked up and wound up and he chomped me right in my eyebrow. It was bad. I applied preasure to stop the bleeding, and then taped it up tight to hold it all together. There was an area around it that turned black and blue, and I'm sure I was a real treat to look at the next evening at the party. It was my fault, I let my face get too close to his when I was playing rough. But I know that dog's don't harbor a grudge like people do. 

Best of luck with your family dynamics. If it were me, I would let the guy have a pass, on that faux pas. At least this time, if it were to happen again, I would certianly look into what's going on, is it the dog, the humans, a combination? If you wife isn't happy with being around your new dog though perhaps it might be better to re-home.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

NovaShepherd- I think it is particularly hard and unfortunate when our first real lessons of dog behavior have to come from situations like these. I can certainly understand why your wife (and you) would feel angry and betrayed by your pup but I also think that the more you learn about dog behavior you will realize that those feelings are really only valid IF you can assign HUMAN emotions and feelings to your dog- which you can't. Unfortunately you guys are getting a crash course at very emotional time. You guys have to learn and at the same time heal- and no doubt that is hard to do. 

First, I would really encourage you not to withhold affection from your dog, as stated he is long past remembering what he did. Right now, he is TOTALLY bewildered at why he is being treated this way. And all that is occurring is an erosion of the base of trust that has already formed. I'm not saying you have to be lovey-dovey but even walks or a game of fetch to him, is attention. This goes for your wife as well. 

Second- All the outside resources that have been mentioned here- the books, videos and links- please look into them. BOTH you and your wife. She especially needs to understand that what he did was not vicious or mean, it was merely meant to be a warning and it just sucks that he got her as bad as he did. She also needs to understand about their boundaries and their behavior.

It sounds like you are already going to do the vet check and look into a trainer/behaviorist so you are on the right track there. I really think this is fixable but the key is really understanding your dog. And I think you both will find the more you understand him the more your angry feelings towards him will dissipate. 

There is a rule around here- when our dogs do something wrong, it is ALWAYS our fault. There are no bad dogs, just bad owners.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

dharmasmom what a beautiful and helpful post! there is now nothing left to be said, or said better, on this thread.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

gracieGSD said:


> Very sorry for the injuries to your wifes face, that cannot be fun.
> 
> What does she want to do about the dog. If she is (reasonably so) uncomfortable with the dog, you should make her happy and rehome. I see that there are many people who believe that extroidinary measures should be taken to rehab and help the dog, but this boy crossed the line. A puncture wound is not a warning shot. At his age, he knows his bite force. Full on and it would have been much worse, I know.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. We really would like to make this work. I think my wife is already coming around. She's always loved the dog, just as I have.

When I say "puncture wound," it did break the skin in one of the three marks, but it didn't require stitches. I imagine it's easier to puncture skin that's atop a bone (the cheekbone in this case) than, say, the inner forearm. But it's not like a big hole or something. I don't know if that changes your assessment.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Debbi and Davey--thank you both. Understood. We're taking him to the vet Saturday AM. And in the meantime, I'll give him some attention, as will my wife, I'm sure.

I should reiterate that we both really love him. We're used to rubbing his belly, throwing the ball for him, cuddling with him. I think he is more irritable at night, when he's ready to sleep. It's the only time he seems uneager for affection. I should've paid more mind to that.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Excellent! And can I just say that I really commend you for being willing to come here and learn and be willing to stick by this guy. A lot of people would have just dumped him off at the nearest shelter and not looked back. So a big THANK YOU for first, rescuing him and now being willing to learn and work with him!!


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## gracieGSD (Jan 10, 2011)

NovaShepherd said:


> Thanks so much. We really would like to make this work. I think my wife is already coming around. She's always loved the dog, just as I have.
> 
> When I say "puncture wound," it did break the skin in one of the three marks, but it didn't require stitches. I imagine it's easier to puncture skin that's atop a bone (the cheekbone in this case) than, say, the inner forearm. But it's not like a big hole or something. I don't know if that changes your assessment.


 
I'm trying to think of the right way to put this. Please let your wife make the decision. And as much as I agree with Dharmasmom about bad dogs/bad owners, your boy has some issues not created by you or your wife. How far you are willing to go to correct them is up to you. You already know this, but your wife and her feelings have to be the priority here. I just don't want you or her to feel forced into dealing with a dog that may be more than you can or want to handle. Sometimes, people have to come first. And thank you for your reply, best of luck to you. Wanted to add that you have a wonderful resource here on correcting behavior, this is the place to be. You are getting great advice on how to treat the issue, just be honest with yourself when making your decision. More editing to clarify...what I am trying to say is that if your wife is not 100% on board, don't keep the dog. It is amazing how something like this could breed resentment, and affect your marriage.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gracieGSD said:


> I'm trying to think of the right way to put this. Please let your wife make the decision. And as much as I agree with Dharmasmom about bad dogs/bad owners, your boy has some issues not created by you or your wife. How far you are willing to go to correct them is up to you. You already know this, but your wife and her feelings have to be the priority here. I just don't want you or her to feel forced into dealing with a dog that may be more than you can or want to handle. Sometimes, people have to come first. And thank you for your reply, best of luck to you.


The dog isn't aggressive, this wasn't an attack, this was a warning bite because she got in his face, it is not the dog's fault. He did not ask her to put her face in his, he felt uncomfortable and reacted.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

NovaShepherd said:


> Debbi and Davey--thank you both. Understood. We're taking him to the vet Saturday AM. And in the meantime, I'll give him some attention, as will my wife, I'm sure.
> 
> I should reiterate that we both really love him. We're used to rubbing his belly, throwing the ball for him, cuddling with him. I think he is more irritable at night, when he's ready to sleep. It's the only time he seems uneager for affection. I should've paid more mind to that.


When you take him to the vet, have them check his neck for tenderness. If you can, have xrays done as well. My 10 1/2 year old has arthritis in his neck and he does not like to be touched there because it hurts him. He has snapped at the vet for messing with it, though he has never snapped at me or my family.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Tick panel too if not done. Ouchy! 

Supplements for arthritis also help (I guess!).


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> I've grown up with dogs; my wife hasn't. She didn't know this was a dog no-no. It was on me to emphasize that you don't get in their face--but I'd always thought that if the dog lets you do it, then that dog is OK with it from there on out. Obviously, I was wrong on that; *he probably was annoyed* every time and didn't react till this time. .


I have to say that if your wife doesn't "know" how to read dogs, the dog may have been giving her a very clear signal that she didn't understand. Please check out Turid Rugaas Turid Rugaas - Calming Signals Community 
Also if you look at the situation from the dogs eyes, a senior who lost his family, bounced around and now in a new home. Dogs understand "respect" and for the most part an older dog would be quite content laying around with the occassional "Good boy" or "Good girl" with a pat on the head. They say to never go praise (or smother) a dog with affection it he's just laying down for no reason. I have raised my dogs from 8 weeks old and I intentionally will crawl up to them when they are laying on the floor and smother them and get in thier face. Would I do this with any other dog, absolutely not.
I have been bitten as a child by our Irish Setter, bitten by a 6' Boa, kicked in the head by a race horse I used to care for, kicked by one of my other horses & stepped on numerous times. I can honestly say that in every incident I was the one to blame thru some fault of my own for eighter not paying attention or whatever.
I hope your wife can let this go and just chalk it up to an unfortunate learning experience that she will prevent from ever happening again. 
Two feet of space can save your face.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have only been bitten during dog fights which I do not count as they are accidents in my opinion, and one older dog who was telling me to back off. In hindsight he used a lot of restraint, and it could have been a lot worse. But three of my fingers were bleeding. I ended up putting the dog down -- more to that story chronic pain, etc, but if I had that dog today, it never would have gotten that far. 

I do not know the studies they are all talking about. I do not know that a dog's memory works the way our memory does. I certainly believe that they build associations to things. They can do it quickly, when you lift your hand up over the head and the but goes down good doggy, and treat. They start getting the association that that signal and the word sit means butt down on the ground and something good is going to happen.

You can do NOTHING with this dog for six months, and try this again, and they will sit. The association is built in now. 

I know that a puppy has some kind of memory/association WAY beyond three seconds. Two short stories, same pup:

1. At four weeks I put a rope with a bone in the puppy pen, and the pup separated the bone from the rest of the pack and was working dilligently on it. I put the food bin down, but he was working on the bone. I picked him up and put his nose to the kibble, and he finished the food with his siblings. He immediately turned and rushed back the the bone and took up where he left off. I thought all those, distract the dog with something else, is not going to work with this boy.

2. Seven weeks old, had the pup out of the puppy pen and he found a cooked chicken bone. In the yard, I separated the bone from him and put him back in the pen. 7 HOURS later, I let the puppy out of the pen again. The dog did not turn left or right, he made a bee-line to where he found that bone. 

Was this memory, or some type of association?

With a three second memory, we are dead in the water. No way can we hope to live with an animal who can only remember things for 3 seconds. I am sorry, but dogs remember people, after months of not seeing them. Or they form an association in the mind, this person-smell=pleasant. this person-smell = not so good. 

I do not think you lost any ground in ignoring the dog for the past few days. By giving the dog some space and letting him figure out whether or not YOU are ok, you are letting him come to you. 

I am the dog lover in my family. My sister does not hate animals, but she is not drawn to them. But the animals are drawn to her, not me. I find this one of the most unfair things in life. But what do we each do when we go to a new place. I immediately see and watch the dog wondering if I will be able to pet it. My sister acknowledges there is a dog and completely ignores it. The animal feels NO threat from my sister and will quickly go up and greet her. The animal sees that I am interested in it, and immediately goes on high alert. 

I do not think that being angry at the dog is helpful, or punishing the dog for the sake of punishing is helpful. A correction somewhat in the measure of the offense makes sense and as quickly as possible. Never call the dog to you to punish, or you are punishing the compliant behavior. But if it takes you 20 seconds or a minute to correct, so long as you have not given other commands that were obeyed in between the time, it is ok. 

The next day it is over with for the dog, accept that he can associate that when he puts his teeth on the person, that isn't pleasant. 

Unfortuately, what he probably has associated with the incident, is that putting his teeth on the lady made her back off, the absolute thing he wanted to happen. 

So how do you get back to square one and beyond? 

I like that your wife is giving the dog commands in a command tone, good. Is she praising the dog for complying? That is just as important, he needs to know he did the right thing. It does not matter if he was trained already, he knows SIT. But if he does not hear that he did the right thing when this person says SIT, then it will not build the trust, the bond. So for about a week, every time that dog does something on command, it is Good Sit, Good boy. And treats will not hurt this at all. 

Let the dog have his space, the time he needs to accept each of you as people above him on the totem pole. What I mean by this, is do not go to him and pet and cuddle, etc. 

When the dog comes to you, then ask the dog to do something, SIT, Down, something. Then prais the act and give a brief pet session, and then say Go Lay Down, to indicate that it is over. it is best to end it when he is still wanting more. 

It may be a real good idea for your wife to take the dog to some classes. 

This is a tough situation, and some of these people on here deal with rescues -- homing adult dogs with people, all the time. And they are speaking from experience. Others do not have as much experience. Your best bet is to take the dog to a real live person who can evaluate the dog and see how the dog interacts with you and your wife, and give you the best tools to manage and work with the dog. 

I do not think the ignore that you have done with the dog has hurt him. I see it more as a backing off. But I think that harboring resentment or anger is not helpful. 

Hope your wife feels better soon. Just because she is dealing with an animal, does not mean she will not have some very human feelings about it.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Tick panel too if not done. Ouchy!
> 
> Supplements for arthritis also help (I guess!).


Very true! My senior is on Springtime's Longevity, a magnetic collar, and aspirin as needed for the bad days.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He's touchy at night? Do some research on seratonin levels. They decrease at night and melatonin should increase. I read an article not to long ago that some dogs get 'aggressive' (and I use that term loosely in this case but I don't think your dog is aggressive) at night due to lower seratonin levels.

I would start by having your wife toss him a treat every time he looked at her while she marks the behavior she wants with a word (I use Yes!). He needs to associate a reward with his behavior. 

He will learn that when he focuses on her, he gets a treat. Once he learns that then move on to adding commands. Have him sit at the door before going out, mark and treat. Sit before SHE feeds him, mark and treat. 

Get the ball out! Use his natural play drive. Throw the ball and yell Yes! Then move on to adding commands once he associates the reward (the ball) to your wife.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

gracieGSD said:


> I'm trying to think of the right way to put this. Please let your wife make the decision. And as much as I agree with Dharmasmom about bad dogs/bad owners, your boy has some issues not created by you or your wife. How far you are willing to go to correct them is up to you. You already know this, but your wife and her feelings have to be the priority here. I just don't want you or her to feel forced into dealing with a dog that may be more than you can or want to handle. Sometimes, people have to come first. And thank you for your reply, best of luck to you.



I'm going to try very hard to respectfully disagree with you here. We have already discussed her being afraid of the dog. He told us several pages back that she is not afraid- angry and resentful, yes- afraid, no. 

This was a warning, as you well know if a gsd or a gsd mix decided to actually do damage there is going to be an ER visit and stitches involved. It was as bad as it was only because she was so close. But then again, that is probably the reason it happened. He had already stated the dog had been great for the 2 months leading up to the incident. No issues what so ever. 

He is doing the right thing, he is going to rule out any physical ailments to ensure the dog is sound and then work with a trainer/behavioralist (to teach them about the dog as well as for bonding).

If he had wanted to rehome people here would have helped him with that. That was never mentioned as an actual option. It sounded like he wanted to work with and understand his dog. People here helped him do that and gave him info he needed. 

Please read the whole thread before you jump in.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

I didn't read the entire thread so sorry if this has already been said.....

Your wife's action (reaching around the dog for a hug) is a very dominant posture in dog language. And the bite was most definitely a warning. 

I would allow things to calm down for a short while. You continue to be the primary care taker and let everything settle to a more calm state. Then you take a step back. Let your wife feed him, walk him, work his training, etc. He needs to trust her, respect her and work for her like he is you.

What issues does this dog have that keep getting mentioned? From what I can tell, the bite is the only problem correct? 

Dog bites are most often caused by people, just like in your case. I am not blaming your wife whatsoever, just pointing out the fact that had she known what was appropriate it would not have happened. Too many people think running up on a dog, grabbing their face and kissing them, hugging them, etc is appropriate. They are animals, not stuffed. They have a language all their own for good reason, to protect themselves from predators which often times can be each other (huh, just like humans). 
Like I said, this was a warning. Had he wanted to cause harm to your wife she would be in a world of hurt right now. 
Would you walk up to a person you only met on a couple of occasions and grab their face for a hug? That is essentially what happened. Give him time to acclimate to his new environment and get used to your family as a whole. Your routine, your mannerisms, your language.


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## gracieGSD (Jan 10, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> The dog isn't aggressive, this wasn't an attack, this was a warning bite because she got in his face, it is not the dog's fault. He did not ask her to put her face in his, he felt uncomfortable and reacted.


 
I didn't say the dog was aggressive or didn't mean to if I did. Reactive for some reason, still unknown. My point is that both husband and wife have to be all in as far as any decisions go. I get the impression that the wifes feelings, regardless of the dog not understanding, are not being addressed or are being disreguarded, and that is not right. Sounds like they both love the dog very much, and have made a decision. I sincerely hope it works out for all of them. In no way do I recommend that a dog be dumped at a shelter at the slightest mishap, but I do firmly believe in free will. Also, I hope that Sinister is feeling better soon. Take Care.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> I didn't read the entire thread so sorry if this has already been said.....
> 
> Your wife's action (reaching around the dog for a hug) is a very dominant posture in dog language. And the bite was most definitely a warning.
> 
> ...


 
Read the entire thread. But, for a shorter version, they took in a rehomed 9 y/o GSD 2 months ago. This is either the 3rd or 4th home this dog has had. The hubby works with the dog and has consistently taken over the leadership role from his wife. The dog has basically bonded somewhat with him, but not his wife. 2 nights ago, the hubby went upstairs and the wife went to hug/nuzzle the dog she is not bonded to. The dog gave a short growl and snapped at her face.
During the 2 months they have had the dog, the dog has had a dental, tooth extraction, change in home, environment, owners, food, pretty much everything.
We have been trying to inform him that holding resentment against the dog does absolutely no good. The dog should also go to the vet and get checked to make sure the tooth extraction did not cause an infection, check for ear infections, arthritis, etc. Anything medical that could possibly explain why this happened. That and have the wife take over pretty much everything in order to form a bond with the dog.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

gracieGSD said:


> I didn't say the dog was aggressive. Reactive for some reason, still unknown. My point is that both husband and wife have to be all in as far as any decisions go. I get the impression that the wifes feelings, regardless of the dog not understanding, are not being addressed or are being disreguarded, and that is not right. Sounds like they both love the dog very much, and have made a decision. I sincerely hope it works out for all of them. In no way do I recommend that a dog be dumped at a shelter at the slightest mishap, but I do firmly believe in free will. Also, I hope that Sinister is feeling better soon. Take Care.


 
However, you did kind of recommend that they get rid of the dog. This is a senior dog who has been in a minimum of 3-4 homes already. It isn't the dog's fault but the dog is being treated like it is.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

gracieGSD said:


> I didn't say the dog was aggressive or didn't mean to if I did. Reactive for some reason, still unknown. My point is that both husband and wife have to be all in as far as any decisions go. I get the impression that the wifes feelings, regardless of the dog not understanding, are not being addressed or are being disreguarded, and that is not right. Sounds like they both love the dog very much, and have made a decision. I sincerely hope it works out for all of them. In no way do I recommend that a dog be dumped at a shelter at the slightest mishap, but I do firmly believe in free will. Also, I hope that Sinister is feeling better soon. Take Care.



You pretty much jumped in the last couple pages of a very long thread, made assumptions about his wife and the dog and then suggested the dog should go, that the dog had "issues". All without reading the entire thread. I understand that the thread is long but there has been a TON of information exchanged in here and before you start giving advice of that nature you really should have read the entire thing.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

gracieGSD said:


> I'm trying to think of the right way to put this. Please let your wife make the decision. And as much as I agree with Dharmasmom about bad dogs/bad owners, your boy has some issues not created by you or your wife. How far you are willing to go to correct them is up to you. You already know this, but your wife and her feelings have to be the priority here. I just don't want you or her to feel forced into dealing with a dog that may be more than you can or want to handle. Sometimes, people have to come first. And thank you for your reply, best of luck to you. Wanted to add that you have a wonderful resource here on correcting behavior, this is the place to be. You are getting great advice on how to treat the issue, just be honest with yourself when making your decision. More editing to clarify...what I am trying to say is that if your wife is not 100% on board, don't keep the dog. It is amazing how something like this could breed resentment, and affect your marriage.


Gracie, I think that's 100% true. Thank you. Indeed, the night this first happened, my initial reaction was "We're putting him down." Typical macho husband reaction at seeing my wife with the bite marks.

The next day I was more circumspect. I've told her I support her either way--giving him up to a shelter (or euthanasia) or working with him. I recognized the same thing you said--that pushing her toward any decision would be horrible for the marriage (not to mention the dog). She's said (with no prodding or hinting from me) that she would feel bad if we put him down, and she's coming around that the bite didn't really reflect his true feelings. We've both loved him from day one and vice versa.

I probably misrepresnted my wife's relationship with the dog. She _has_ bonded with him, but he clearly has been seeing her as an equal rather than a co-master. Often he will come to my side of the couch and only go to hers when she repeatedly calls him--but when he does go to her, she pets him and he clearly shows love back. Still, he pays more attentiveness to me and until yesterday was more obedient to me, which I know she has found somewhat frustrating. And as all have suggested, we're going to remedy this by making her the primary caregiver for a while at least.

If I get home from work before her and am hanging out with him, the minute her car pulls up, he'll nose the front door and want to get out and greet her. If either of us approaches him to pet him while he's lying on his side, he'll stretch out a front paw to press against us, as if to pet us.

Anyway. Thanks to all for your advice and for those book and video reccs. We have some work ahead of us, but he's a great dog and has brought a lot of real joy to our lives. So he's worth it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think anyone can have an opinion without getting jumped on for not reading every word in a thread, JMPO. With that said, could we please keep this thread on topic. If you want to argue over whether someone has the right to comment, please take it to a PM.


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## gracieGSD (Jan 10, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> You pretty much jumped in the last couple pages of a very long thread, made assumptions about his wife and the dog and then suggested the dog should go, that the dog had "issues". All without reading the entire thread. I understand that the thread is long but there has been a TON of information exchanged in here and before you start giving advice of that nature you really should have read the entire thing.


 
I did read many, many of them. Yes, very long thread. I made the assumption that the dog had issues since he has been rehomed 4 times already. I read that they have made the decision to keep him, and I wish them the best. I would like to clarify my position on rehoming. If for whatever reason, fear, lack of time, not doing research, a person or family cannot or is unwilling to keep a dog, they should be able to do so without reproach. I know it is not the dogs fault, I know he is a senior, I know the wife is not that familiar with dog behavior. Owning a dog is an all in situation, no in between. If for whatever reason, it cannot be 100%, than it shouldn't be at all. My advice was, to be clear, that if his wife did not want to keep the dog, don't. She does. Blessings and good luck to them.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

Just wanted to throw in my two cents. When we adopted Heidi at age two, three years ago. My husband and I were very careful to stay out of her face and give her plenty of space. She was really skittish--especially of men. Both of us had the feeling that we just didn't know her well enough to completely trust her.

She immediately bonded to me and couldn't care less about my husband, which really hurt him because he loves dogs and german shepherds in particular. She followed me around and always wanted to know where I was. If I went somewhere, she would sit by the door, waiting for me (which she still does to this day!) On the other hand, when my husband came home from work at the end of the day, she would barely look up, let alone get up and greet him. 

She would get annoyed with him if he tried to give her affection or get too close to her. A couple of times, she even growled at him for getting into her face when she was up on the bed.

Well, three years later and she now goes to him for belly rubs and runs happily to greet him when he comes home from work. I'm still #1, but she loves him as well. It took quite a while (probably at least six months) to get to that point: lots of training, treats, playing, and patience. She still has issues with some men (especially gray-haired men and men with beards), but she's 100 percent fine with Dave now. 

I think that sometimes these dogs come to us with issues and experiences that we can't possibly know about. They are very smart and sensitive, and it will take some time to win their complete trust. I wish you the very best and commend you for making the effort to work with this poor guy who hasn't had much stability in his life. I hope it works out for all of you.


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## gracieGSD (Jan 10, 2011)

NovaShepherd said:


> Gracie, I think that's 100% true. Thank you. Indeed, the night this first happened, my initial reaction was "We're putting him down." Typical macho husband reaction at seeing my wife with the bite marks.
> 
> The next day I was more circumspect. I've told her I support her either way--giving him up to a shelter (or euthanasia) or working with him. I recognized the same thing you said--that pushing her toward any decision would be horrible for the marriage (not to mention the dog). She's said (with no prodding or hinting from me) that she would feel bad if we put him down, and she's coming around that the bite didn't really reflect his true feelings. We've both loved him from day one and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Wonderful news! He sure is a lovey dovey from the sound of it. Best of luck to all three of you


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just my piece...There are 5 dogs in my house and I have raised 4 of them since they were 8 weeks old. And I will generally not get in any of their faces. I let them make the choice to get that close to my face and I've taught them to give kisses...but I almost always have a hand on their neck...not to pull them in, but to be able to push them away. Even unintentionally these dogs can hurt you. I've had teeth broken, bloody noses, bruises on my face...so in general now I try not to teach my dogs that being near my face is OK unless they are perfectly calm. And then I let them come to me. 

There are a couple of my dogs that I don't let near my face. Anka is a face nipper. She'll lick and then nip, full of teeth. Too excitable to be near my face. Ike we've had for a year and a half. He's very affectionate, love to be scratched and pet on his back..but He is an old male. Friendly but old. I think he's starting to lose some of his eyesight and I try and be very mindful of the fact that he doesn't always see as well as he could at night and that sometimes his depth perception is off. Just like people...Some dogs are cuddlers and some dogs like to be affectionate near you...respecting that will create a more trusting bond with you and your dog. 

I think anytime you're getting in a dog's space (even dogs you've had forever), you need to give them the opportunity to move away if they want. Otherwise you are limiting their options to say "I'm uncomfortable". I also sometimes prefer the side approach when getting near a dog's face...full frontal face to face is confrontational. You'll often see a dog's eyes slide off to the side and they'll start looking at you out of the corner of the eye or maybe their body will go stiff/tense. This indicates that perhaps you ought to let go...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> Just my piece...There are 5 dogs in my house and I have raised 4 of them since they were 8 weeks old. And I will generally not get in any of their faces. I let them make the choice to get that close to my face and I've taught them to give kisses...but I almost always have a hand on their neck...not to pull them in, but to be able to push them away. Even unintentionally these dogs can hurt you. I've had teeth broken, bloody noses, bruises on my face...so in general now I try not to teach my dogs that being near my face is OK unless they are perfectly calm. And then I let them come to me.
> 
> There are a couple of my dogs that I don't let near my face. Anka is a face nipper. She'll lick and then nip, full of teeth. Too excitable to be near my face. Ike we've had for a year and a half. He's very affectionate, love to be scratched and pet on his back..but He is an old male. Friendly but old. I think he's starting to lose some of his eyesight and I try and be very mindful of the fact that he doesn't always see as well as he could at night and that sometimes his depth perception is off. Just like people...Some dogs are cuddlers and some dogs like to be affectionate near you...respecting that will create a more trusting bond with you and your dog.
> 
> I think anytime you're getting in a dog's space (even dogs you've had forever), you need to give them the opportunity to move away if they want. Otherwise you are limiting their options to say "I'm uncomfortable". I also sometimes prefer the side approach when getting near a dog's face...full frontal face to face is confrontational. You'll often see a dog's eyes slide off to the side and they'll start looking at you out of the corner of the eye or maybe their body will go stiff/tense. This indicates that perhaps you ought to let go...


Very good post!


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

Karin said:


> Well, three years later and she now goes to him for belly rubs and runs happily to greet him when he comes home from work. I'm still #1, but she loves him as well. It took quite a while (probably at least six months) to get to that point: lots of training, treats, playing, and patience. She still has issues with some men (especially gray-haired men and men with beards), but she's 100 percent fine with Dave now.


Thanks for the inspiration, Karin!


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> Just my piece...There are 5 dogs in my house and I have raised 4 of them since they were 8 weeks old. And I will generally not get in any of their faces. I let them make the choice to get that close to my face and I've taught them to give kisses...but I almost always have a hand on their neck...not to pull them in, but to be able to push them away. Even unintentionally these dogs can hurt you. I've had teeth broken, bloody noses, bruises on my face...so in general now I try not to teach my dogs that being near my face is OK unless they are perfectly calm. And then I let them come to me.
> 
> There are a couple of my dogs that I don't let near my face. Anka is a face nipper. She'll lick and then nip, full of teeth. Too excitable to be near my face. Ike we've had for a year and a half. He's very affectionate, love to be scratched and pet on his back..but He is an old male. Friendly but old. I think he's starting to lose some of his eyesight and I try and be very mindful of the fact that he doesn't always see as well as he could at night and that sometimes his depth perception is off. Just like people...Some dogs are cuddlers and some dogs like to be affectionate near you...respecting that will create a more trusting bond with you and your dog.
> 
> I think anytime you're getting in a dog's space (even dogs you've had forever), you need to give them the opportunity to move away if they want. Otherwise you are limiting their options to say "I'm uncomfortable". I also sometimes prefer the side approach when getting near a dog's face...full frontal face to face is confrontational. You'll often see a dog's eyes slide off to the side and they'll start looking at you out of the corner of the eye or maybe their body will go stiff/tense. This indicates that perhaps you ought to let go...


 
Great post! And so true. Zappa, my cuddle bug, loves to be there, almost on top of you, to get his loving. Leyna on the other hand is not a cuddler. If she gets hugged, she does the sideways look and the ear closest to your body goes back. She is much happier to be within petting distance. Except when she is in heat.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Is that your guy in your avatar? Do you feel comfortable telling us his name yet? If that is him he is a handsome fella! 

I think you guys will find that with a little bit of work, he will soon be the best friend y'all have ever had and will love both of you to death and see and respect you both.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> Is that your guy in your avatar? Do you feel comfortable telling us his name yet? If that is him he is a handsome fella!
> 
> I think you guys will find that with a little bit of work, he will soon be the best friend y'all have ever had and will love both of you to death and see and respect you both.


Hey, thanks! That is indeed him--Del. He'd been Del for 9 years when we got him, so we figured we'd let him keep on being Del. We came up with a silly derivation for it, though.

Thanks for the encouragement! I'll post an update soon.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I think you were right in keeping his name. When I got my foster, she came with the name Tessa. Although I think the shelter that picked her up gave it to her, she was already answering to it so I just kept it. It works for her but it wasn't necessarily what I would have picked. 

Anyway, silly little nicknames make them ours. We look forward to updates to hear how you guys are doing.


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## NovaShepherd (May 4, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> I think you were right in keeping his name. When I got my foster, she came with the name Tessa.


Tessa of the D'Ogervilles!


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

NovaShepherd said:


> Tessa of the D'Ogervilles!



 That's a good one!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry, but nine out of my ten dogs I have had since birth, save for few months here or there. And the tenth, Odessa, came to me a few months ago as a three year old. I can put my face anywhere. I can put my hands anywhere. In the ears, on the toenails, down the throat, under the tail. My dogs have my face in theirs many times and I have NEVER been bitten for doing so, probably two separate concussions, but never a bite, not even in warning. 

This case is different because the owner has only had the dog for a couple of months, and we really have no idea what the previous owners let the dog get away with. 

I think that if one of my dogs were to bite me at this point, I would feel pretty disappointed in myself. I think a dog would give such a warning because they are afraid that you might hurt them, and I do not want my dogs to be afraid of me like that. When you have a dog for just a short period, the dog has not had the chance to build up that kind of trust. 

But having dogs up from eight weeks, how would you look into their eye for a problem, apply drops, or look at a tooth, or check their ears, or check that blood comes back when you press the gums, or check for something stuck in the mouth or throat?

My dogs have to be ok with me putting my hands and my face near them. I can bend over them. I can hug them -- that includes the new one. If they would not let you put your face next to theirs, what will they do if you take a newborn pup away from them?


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but nine out of my ten dogs I have had since birth, save for few months here or there. And the tenth, Odessa, came to me a few months ago as a three year old. I can put my face anywhere. I can put my hands anywhere. In the ears, on the toenails, down the throat, under the tail. My dogs have my face in theirs many times and I have NEVER been bitten for doing so, probably two separate concussions, but never a bite, not even in warning.
> 
> This case is different because the owner has only had the dog for a couple of months, and we really have no idea what the previous owners let the dog get away with.
> 
> ...


This is true, but the OP is dealing with a rescue. No idea of the exact background.
My personal dogs know my mannerisms, trust that I have their best interests in mind and have never felt the need to protect themselves in any situation.
But with a rescue it is completely different. You need to build a relationship first than move on to testing the boundaries. Unfortunately the OP found out what happens when a dog isn't sure of the boundaries and reacted badly. 

The more you work with your rescue by utilizing their foundation training (or teaching foundation training) the more positive your bond will be. I would use only positive reinforcement for now and build his confidence in and around your family. 

Another thing to remember...he is again in a new spot with new people. He most likely hasn't settled completely and now feelings in the house have changed again due to the bite. Even if he doesn't show uneasiness I would still watch for it for a while.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know that, I was responding to a previous post about having dogs that will not tolerate certain things. I did mention the difference here is that they have not had the time to build up this trust.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

It looks like you have received some great advice I only wanted to add a few things. I adopted a 7 yr old female last Oct from my breeder. Callan had lived her entire life in the same place when she came here. While she was a sweetie she has just now gotten really comfortable. She will now roll over for belly rubs and trust us totally, it has taken 6 months. Do not get me wrong, she allowed petting and affection from day one. But I can just see that she is now totally relaxed.

Also when Callan came here she had 2 teeth pulled before coming. I noticed it took her a couple of months before her mouth was comfortable. Just some food for thought.

It sounds like you on the right track and I agree that your wife should take the dog to classes. Nothing builds a bond better than training. Also a good trainer can point out things she might be doing and not even realize. My trainer pointed out that sometimes well I just was not serious enough. So when I would give my male a command well he sometimes did not listen. I am so glad to have found my trainer, after all its not just the dogs that need training sometimes


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