# Discussion: Contact With Poorly Trained Dogs



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Deb said:


> ...
> 
> There is no official service dog certification. There are websites that will give you a 'certificate' but no national certification or programs for service dogs like there are for therapy, etc.. Several congressmen and senators have tried but failed to pass for requiring one. There is a group of people around here that 'train' pets as service dogs. It's a great idea, it's for PTSD dogs, but the dogs aren't really well trained. I had to ask the person with their service dog in a dentist office to please pull their dog back from Demi and to keep him away. Is there anything that can be done about this? How do you handle when poorly trained 'service' dogs don't behave. It eventually is going to make it very difficult for well trained service dogs.



No "eventually" about it. Poorly trained SDs and poorly trained dogs being called a SD does make it harder for well trained SDs out in the public. Take your SD into a grocery store and possibly someone in there will remember a dog that sniffed at the meat or other items as their owner was shopping. Take your SD into a bank or other place of business and possibly someone in there will remember a dog that toileted in there before. In a restaurant and staff will remember the dog that sat on a chair at the table or was fed off of a plate or even sniffed at food on other customer's tables as it walked by. 

As a member of the public it really isn't up to the handler of a SD team to police others actions UNLESS the other dog is bothering or threatening your dog. If so call out for help to other business workers and then ask to speak to management. If you see a dog misbehaving you can speak to an employee or management off to the side and remind them that they have the right to tell the owner to remove their dog. It doesn't matter if the dog is a SD or not. Management doesn't have to take the time to decide if the dog is a SD as misbehaving SDs must leave as well as any misbehaving pet dog would.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I do the recurring training with Demi as my son is not often able to leave the house. I'm constantly praised for how well behaved she is, as is my son when he is out with her. We'd thank them, but it was so often, every time. Then I started seeing more. Night and day for the most part. I taught on a military post so would see service dogs occasionally with a parent, for the last few years. They were well trained. Some were former MWDs. They'd come in, lay at the person's feet, even in the middle of a school program with a several hundred people and lots of little kids. They ignored it all, as they should. But then I started meeting the ones who don't down when told if there are distractions, etc.. At least they've all been friendly. The person who helps train them also gives the CGC test. So I'm thinking it's done on/in the same place they train. I really wish there was some kind of regulations.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

This may not be 100% on topic, but this jogged a memory. 

Our location of a large national chain specializing in outdoor gear does not allow pets. It will allow service dogs. We were waiting in line to check out behind this young couple and their dog. I wouldn't have really noticed this dog but for the fact that 1) she was a very pretty red and black GSD, so she caught my eye; and 2) she was visibly nervous and stressed, and she was acting a bit fidgety and whiny. I could see the cashier trying not to raise an eyebrow as she asked, "Is this a service dog?" The couple said yes. I really don't think the cashier believed them, but you can't say a lot more beyond that, of course.

For obvious reason, I did not say anything either, but I wondered if this dog was a legitimate service dog. Assuming she was, I would have expected her behavior to be much more calm and collected than that. I mind my own business, but was I off base to question this inside my head? Am I mistaken to expect that a real, well trained service dog would be so quiet and calm and focused that I would barely notice its presence?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have had young dogs in training fidget and whine. I always make sure dogs in training have a noticeable patch saying they are in training and if they ever do anything like sniff someone or whine I always apologize to anyone and explain that they are still learning.

Adult SDs who are finished should be quiet calm and inobtrusive except for some dogs who may bark or whine as part of an alert or other task.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have had young dogs in training fidget and whine. I always make sure dogs in training have a noticeable patch saying they are in training and if they ever do anything like sniff someone or whine I always apologize to anyone and explain that they are still learning.
> 
> Adult SDs who are finished should be quiet calm and inobtrusive except for some dogs who may bark or whine as part of an alert or other task.


For what it's worth, this dog looked younger but fully adult; she was not wearing any kind of patch or vest. I would guess they're not required to wear those things, but this dog was not wearing anything but a collar and leash.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

A Service Dog is not required to wear any special type of vest or patches. As to Service Dogs In-Training (SDITs) that varies by State. In some states a SDIT may be allowed in a no-pet allowed location while training while others they are not. In some states the owner/handler may be allowed to take their dog into a no-pet allowed location while training and in others only a trainer working for an approved facility or organization is allowed to train a dog in a no-pet allowed location. 

Under the ADA, only fully trained Service Dogs are addressed. Disabled handlers of SDs have rights under this Civil Rights Law. Any rights of handlers or trainers of SDITs are given per the individual states.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

ILGHAUS said:


> A Service Dog is not required to wear any special type of vest or patches. As to Service Dogs In-Training (SDITs) that varies by State. In some states a SDIT may be allowed in a no-pet allowed location while training while others they are not. In some states the owner/handler may be allowed to take their dog into a no-pet allowed location while training and in others only a trainer working for an approved facility or organization is allowed to train a dog in a no-pet allowed location.
> 
> Under the ADA, only fully trained Service Dogs are addressed. Disabled handlers of SDs have rights under this Civil Rights Law. Any rights of handlers or trainers of SDITs are given per the individual states.


I Googled, and Minnesota law says nothing about SDITs, only mentions "service dogs." 

If the dog was in training, that would make sense. The owners didn't say it was in training - the cashier asked, "Is this a service dog?" and the answer was, "Yes" - but that doesn't mean it wasn't. Maybe the owners didn't feel like going into detail. I don't think the cashier actually believed them, and I didn't think very highly of the dog's behavior given it was called a service dog, but nobody said anything further to the couple, as they shouldn't.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Questioning over if a dog is a SD or not is the right of store management or specific employees acting on the direction of management and they may ask two approved questions.

Q7. What questions can a covered entity’s employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?

A: In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and(2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person’s disability.

_Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA
U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, Disability Rights Section
July 20, 2015_


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

ILGHAUS said:


> Questioning over if a dog is a SD or not is the right of store management or specific employees acting on the direction of management and they may ask two approved questions.
> 
> Q7. What questions can a covered entity’s employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
> 
> ...


Right - I knew about the two questions that management can ask. Common sense dictates that it is rude at best for anyone else to ask anything.

Hopefully the dog was in training and is better now. It is probably going to have a lot of people silently questioning its owner if it isn't.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Right regarding vest...not required. But I like it and find it helpful with a green dog so people know what the deal is.

Most states I have lived in grant SDITs the same rights as SDs, otherwise how would they learn...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

And good thing too because I once drove an hour and a half into Boston for a doctor's appointment with my dog and when we arrived I didn't have her vest or harness so I took her in naked and we just acted professional and no one even questioned her. She couldn't do some of what she was trained for without the harness, but better than nothing.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

With Demi we always use her vest. I think with a really large dog, especially a GSD, people accept the dog easier. I've still had people ask me if Demi will bite and go out of their way to avoid her. I try to keep out of their way if I notice someone is afraid of her. 


One place started questioning me with questions they aren't allowed to ask. I calmly told them they aren't allowed to ask those kind of personal questions. The manager came flying up an aisle and apologizing profusely. I said it was all right, no harm done. I have a feeling the workers got a crash course. Demi also has an ID card with her picture and info on the front side and the ADA rules on the other that is attached to her vest.


The same rules that protect the truly disabled also sadly protect those who don't have a disability and just want to take their dog with them anywhere. I saw an ad locally online about six months back for a Chihuahua for sale that came with a service vest so whoever bought her 'could take her with them wherever they wanted'.


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