# White GSD versus Black



## mlw987m

Just wondering from experience with white versus black German Shepherd puppies, does anyone have opinions on the different temperaments if any? My 12 year old black and brown dog died, and we have a black and brown 3 year old, but this time I'm thinking black or white pup. I'm trying to put my sorrow aside and have asked a friend who is a trainer, she seems to think the white males have a calmer demeanor than other colors. Forgot to mention it will be a male.


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## Castlemaid

Color in GSDs is not linked to behavioral traits - it's just color. The lines and the breeding the dog is from will be the determining factor for temperament, personality, and energy levels. You trainer friend may be right in that most of the white GSDs she has seen were probably from a long-line of dogs bred to be pets, as opposed to have been bred to be working dogs - though dogs from working lines can make wonderful pets also. 

If you are ready to start looking at getting a puppy, instead of looking at color, you may want to start to research the different lines of GSDs, and find a breeder that breeds for what you are looking for. Members on the forum can help with breeder recommendations, and I think if you are set on a calm dog, you should look into rescues also, where you can adopt an older dog who'se temperament and energy level is already known. 

This article goes over the three main types of GSDs, and explains how they originated:

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## LuvShepherds

I know nothing about white shepherds but if a solid black is also from East German working lines, the dogs tend to be drivey and intense. It depends what the dogs were bred to do.


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## mlw987m

Castlemaid said:


> Color in GSDs is not linked to behavioral traits - it's just color. The lines and the breeding the dog is from will be the determining factor for temperament, personality, and energy levels. You trainer friend may be right in that most of the white GSDs she has seen were probably from a long-line of dogs bred to be pets, as opposed to have been bred to be working dogs - though dogs from working lines can make wonderful pets also.
> 
> If you are ready to start looking at getting a puppy, instead of looking at color, you may want to start to research the different lines of GSDs, and find a breeder that breeds for what you are looking for. Members on the forum can help with breeder recommendations, and I think if you are set on a calm dog, you should look into rescues also, where you can adopt an older dog who'se temperament and energy level is already known.
> 
> This article goes over the three main types of GSDs, and explains how they originated:
> 
> (Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


I thought the same about breeding and color. I am by far not an expert. Thank you


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## sebrench

What kind of temperament are you looking for in your new GSD? What kinds of activities would you like to do with him?


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## mlw987m

Family pet, companionship only.


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## kaslkaos

Just a guess, but I would think that a well bred white gsd would be milder, as they are not usually sold as protection or schutzhund dogs (I think). I had a silver shepherd (1st gsd) from white lines (Hoofprints lineage) and she was completely awesome. She was a tugging machine, wrestled like she meant it (all sound & fury), put on a terrifying cujo display at doors and windows, and greeted everybody butt first (as in, 'scratch my butt, thanks), in other words, perfect family pet for someone who likes shepherds.
Dynamo 'may' have been working lines. She was a great pet too, plenty of drive, but she had 'edge', on a fight vs flight scale, she scored high on 'fight'. I could not imagine her running from anything. She needed plenty of strong training, but that done, she was good with family cats, did agility, and in her late years, did nursing home visits. So another perfect family pet for some who likes shepherds but also has training chops.
Good luck in your search.
Colour doesn't matter, but the breeders goals do, not to mention their success or failure in attaining those goals.


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## sebrench

I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sure you can find a suitable companion GSD of either color. I would focus first on what line you want, as others have said: American show lines (ASL), working lines, West German show lines (mostly black and red dogs), and the whites, which have been excluded from the other lines. Each different type of GSD has been bred for different purposes, and so the temperament/abilities seem to differ somewhat among each line--though that's a huge generalization, of course. In general, working line dogs have higher drive and can be more suitable for personal protection/bitework. There are some gorgeous black working line dogs, and they can make fabulous companions. You can ask for a lower to medium drive puppy, and the breeder should be able to make a good match for you.

The important thing is to find a responsible breeder who puts temperament first and produces healthy and stable dogs. At the minimum, I'd look for a breeder who health tests their dogs (look for parent's that have hips certified OFA excellent or good, OFA normal elbows, and who are DM negative). 

Although this is entirely up to you, of course, I also like to support breeders who are actively involved in the breed and who title their dogs in something (work, show, or both). The whites are disqualified from showing by the AKC, but they can compete in agility, obedience, and any other AKC dog sport, and they can be shown through other venues/organizations like the UKC. I love white shepherds and hope to have one someday. There are good breeders out there, just make sure they consider health and temperament, not just color. 

Here's a starting place to look for breeders of white shepherds: Page Title and Breeders Directory | White German Shepherd Dog Club of America

Breed info: American White Shepherd Association or White German Shepherd Dog Club of America

Of course you don't have to look for breeders.... rescue dogs are wonderful, you'll get to save a life, and you'll already know about the dog's health and temperament. 

Echo Dogs White Shepherd Rescue


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## Whiteshepherds

kaslkaos said:


> Colour doesn't matter, but the breeders goals do, not to mention their success or failure in attaining those goals.


This can't be repeated enough times. People should never buy a dog with the assumption that the color of its coat is going to have any bearing on the dogs temperament or drive. 

IMHO, on the surface the biggest difference between a black or white GSD is the intimidation factor...black dogs look scarier than white ones. :smile2:


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## kaslkaos

Whiteshepherds said:


> IMHO, on the surface the biggest difference between a black or white GSD is the intimidation factor...black dogs look scarier than white ones. :smile2:


Imagining a snarling snapping white wolf looking dog leaping through the alley after dark, not quite sure if I agree. I can imagine a white K9 officer looking mighty spooky in the most literal sense. :wink2:

I have a soft spot for the whites. I think it's a real shame that bad breeders have given them bad reputation (I was in 'high anxiety class') and 2 of 4 dogs where white shepherds and oversized scary bags of nerves. My silver shepherd was balanced and drivey. I would take one of her lineage any day. So if I was in the market (and now I'm daydreaming) I would be looking for a white shepherd with lots of agility, obedience and service dog titles in the lineage. I doubt I'd see schutz there, just due to market forces. And I think market forces are exactly where the differences would come from.


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## sebrench

Video of white shepherds doing protection work....the breeders are in Estonia, I think? 








I don't have the experience to evaluate it, but it looks pretty awesome to me!! They have a ton of videos. I wasn't sure which one to pick...


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## Whiteshepherds

kaslkaos said:


> Imagining a snarling snapping white wolf looking dog leaping through the alley after dark, not quite sure if I agree. I can imagine a white K9 officer looking mighty spooky in the most literal sense. :wink2:


LOL, okay you might be right. I was thinking more along the lines of just sitting in the car or walking into a pet store.


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## kaslkaos

@sebrench wow, love the video. Now I REALLY miss Misha, my 1st gsd (Hoofprints lineage). The same attitude, 'lemme at 'im' but in a fun way. Dog's having a blast.
Misha used to haul trees the size of a man's thigh...


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## kaslkaos

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL, okay you might be right. I was thinking more along the lines of just sitting in the car or walking into a pet store.


Well, yah. Sweetness and light, but running down in a dark alley, working, well, I would like to see a video of that, because I they would look downright freaky.


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## Thecowboysgirl

This is what I have personally lived with: 2 working lines, 1 white mix, and an akc white. 

My white mix and my akc white are much easier to live with, more willing to take a day off. My impression is that the whites being bred in america are somewhat equivalent to ASL dogs. 

I actually find my white easier to train and work with than my WL because she (wl) is so frantic to figure it out and get the job done that she just kind of explodes all over the place and then gets frustrated that she isn't perfect. Also she is such a ball freak that it can be unpleasant. There is never just a time where she can hang out with a ball and be a pet. Its overdrive, jump off a cliff for the ball and trample anyone and everything in her path. That's what is somewhat annoying about her. That said, she is almost the perfect GSD in my eyes, there will never be another dog I have a relationship with like her. She is fearless and confident and amazing.

The white: now he can just hang out with you with his toys. He likes tug, likes you to toss, but he is VERY sane about it. Breath of fresh air after her. He has never not given me all the motivation I wanted to achieve any training endeavor. He is just calmer about it than her.

I purposefully didn't get a working line this time because I wanted something that was a little easier to live with and he is that. Mind you, she has a great off switch and she has never been a crackhead in the house, just she wanted MORE out of life, even though she was a working service dog, I always did active hobbies and hiked with her to fulfill it all but I don't need that much dog in my life right now and he is just what I wanted. He would have made a fine pet, although I do a lot with him that the average pet home doesn't do, and he succeeds at all of it, he could get by on less. Her? Not so much. I think she could have been a beast in the average pet home.


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## Thecowboysgirl

To be fair if I had known what I know now about working dogs I might have channelled her drive better, but this question was posed by people who just want a housepet.


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## vomlittlehaus

It all depends on the blood lines and what they are bred for. I have West German working line blacks. There are American showline blacks. UKC recognizes the white. You will find show dogs as well as working. AKC whites can only do performance, not conformation.


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## carmspack

generally whites are bred by specialist in producing white dogs --- colour is the primary concern 

the same can happen with those breeding specifically for black -- or for that matter those restricting themselves to black and red .

solid blacks can appear in litters through a recessive gene , each partner needing to carry it . You may have blacks or you may not .

the white dog in the video is all light prey / play , there is no protection , there is no threat


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## zyppi

have known one great white - apologies to Ishmael

But that said

Color: The German Shepherd Dog varies in color, and most colors are permissible. Strong rich
colors are preferred. Pale, washed-out colors and blues or livers are serious faults. A white dog
must be disqualified.


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## KSB

*Black vs white*

You cannot judge a GSD by the color of its fur, just as you cannot judge humans that way. The color issue in breed conformation stems from a political issue dating back to the 1960's. Before that whites could become champions as well. The grandsire of the first GSD was a white dog, so the gene is in there. I have owned many GSD's since 1968 and have put obedience titles on whites and have had some very unstable black-and-tans and solid blacks. I've had charming sables as well. White GSD's are allowed(and have never been excluded) in the AKC obedience ring and have earned advanced obedience titles. There are other registries, such as the CKC, which have no exclusions for whites.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

Hey now isn't that a bit racist? Lol! I've had experience with sables, blacks and now a white shepherd. When I bought my white shepherd I was told they are more friendly towards people and tend to have a golden retriever personality... and he did not disappoint. He still has the drive of a shepherd but LOVES everyone and all animals but he isn't a couch potato either. From my local schutzhund trainer he said most whites lack intelligence and tend to have neurotic tendencies. From my vet: we see more health problems in the white shepherds. My white dog so far hasn't had any neurotic tendencies, he doesn't destroy anything when left home alone and has a good head on his shoulders. However he does have some pretty bad health issues. As far as the fear factor goes hardly anyone is afraid of my big white fluffy dog, and we get comments all the time of people thinking he's a husky... a wolf... etc. I've gotten so sick of hearing it sometimes I'll just play along and see how long it takes for people to realize. Now granted this is only one dog, and my one experience so take this all with a grain of salt. Go ahead and wiki search Berger blanc suisse compare it to the regular German shepherd.


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## Chip Blasiole

As Carmen alluded to, breeding for a specific color such as black or white should be a red flag. That is different than say a solid blacking coming out of two sables. Someone else pointed out that color has nothing to do with temperament. I have heard some say reversed mask dogs are more civil/aggressive. I don't believe that. Some have argued that with the SV's bias against blacks and sables, for dogs of this coat color to place high in conformation, they need to have exceptional working ability. I can't say is that belief is valid.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> As Carmen alluded to, breeding for a specific color such as black or white should be a red flag. That is different than say a solid blacking coming out of two sables. Someone else pointed out that color has nothing to do with temperament. I have heard some say reversed mask dogs are more civil/aggressive. I don't believe that. Some have argued that with the SV's bias against blacks and sables, for dogs of this coat color to place high in conformation, they need to have exceptional working ability. I can't say is that belief is valid.


I don't really agree that breeding whites is a red flag in and of itself. Because they were forced to separate from the other shepherds, it's not like a typical color breeder who is trying to make livers and or blues for pet people who think it's cool. Or even solid black breeders. Nobody is making them do that like what happened with the whites.

Reputable white breeders are doing their own thing with their whites basically as a separate breed and they are trying to produce the best they can produce with what they have to work with.

What I REALLY don't understand, though, is that as long as the whites are still German Shepherds according to aKC, why don't these breeders bring in more genetic material from the color dogs to improve what they have? Other than prejudice on probably all sides that make them not want to cross their lines. It seems like a no brainer to me....I supposed lots of color GSDs breeders if approached by a white breeder for breeding stock to add to their program would not want their dogs being used in that way? I'm speculating. I have no idea. 

It would only take a few generations to produce whites again--if you bring in a couple of great color dogs, the first generation will be all colors that carry white, and pick the best one of those to breed back to a white and you'll get more white pups but with better genetic diversity and hopefully a stronger character? Better health?

I do understand that some white breeders are committed to becoming a different breed and so I guess they don't want to be crossing with color GSDs and be more associated with GSDS when they are trying to be their own thing.


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## Thecowboysgirl

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Hey now isn't that a bit racist? Lol! I've had experience with sables, blacks and now a white shepherd. When I bought my white shepherd I was told they are more friendly towards people and tend to have a golden retriever personality... and he did not disappoint. He still has the drive of a shepherd but LOVES everyone and all animals but he isn't a couch potato either. From my local schutzhund trainer he said most whites lack intelligence and tend to have neurotic tendencies. From my vet: we see more health problems in the white shepherds. My white dog so far hasn't had any neurotic tendencies, he doesn't destroy anything when left home alone and has a good head on his shoulders. However he does have some pretty bad health issues. As far as the fear factor goes hardly anyone is afraid of my big white fluffy dog, and we get comments all the time of people thinking he's a husky... a wolf... etc. I've gotten so sick of hearing it sometimes I'll just play along and see how long it takes for people to realize. Now granted this is only one dog, and my one experience so take this all with a grain of salt. Go ahead and wiki search Berger blanc suisse compare it to the regular German shepherd.


Gandalf if I am not mistaken your breeder is one who is pushing hard to have her dogs be a truly different breed than a GSD and they are only GSDs as a technicality on paper to her.


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## Sunsilver

LuvShepherds said:


> I know nothing about white shepherds but if a solid black is also from East German working lines, the dogs tend to be drivey and intense. It depends what the dogs were bred to do.


Exactly! My female is a black dog from Czech/West German working lines. There is a world of difference between her and this dog, which is an ASL show line shepherd that belongs to a breeder/pro handler who lives close by.

Mar Haven's Solitaire N' Blackjack

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2224084-eska-von-den-roten-vorbergen

The reason why the white shepherd people don't bring ASL lines into their dogs for genetic diversity is the structure they are breeding for is quite a bit different. Compare these Canadian white GSDs from Hoofprint kennel with Black Jack, the dog in the first link:

Brood Bitches


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## GandalfTheShepherd

I'm not sure if that was her goal or not, I think she said that to me just to sell me a dog since I said I wanted a friendly one. Every dog is different, many of his siblings are not friendly. Maybe it's genetics maybe it's how I raise my dogs. I thought white shepherds were not exactly accepted by the AKC?


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## Sunsilver

The white shepherd people in N. America are very much doing their own thing. They have a breed standard, breed club and their own shows. They are also allowed to show in UKC conformation shows. There is also a very extensive genetic database that lists health issues. 

Berger Blanc is different again. They go by FCI rules. They even stack their dogs differently:

https://www.wildwoodwhiteshepherds.com/copy-of-kingston-wild-otbb


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sunsilver said:


> Exactly! My female is a black dog from Czech/West German working lines. There is a world of difference between her and this dog, which is an ASL show line shepherd that belongs to a breeder/pro handler who lives close by.
> 
> Mar Haven's Solitaire N' Blackjack
> 
> Eska von den Roten Vorbergen
> 
> The reason why the white shepherd people don't bring ASL lines into their dogs for genetic diversity is the structure they are breeding for is quite a bit different. Compare these Canadian white GSDs from Hoofprint kennel with Black Jack, the dog in the first link:
> 
> Brood Bitches


Okay, yes that's a good point. Actually the structure of the white dogs was soemthing that drew me to them because I wanted a non working line dog but I don't care for the look of either ASL or WGSL--at least the extreme ones. 

But ASL breeders cross to WGSL sometimes and there are moderate dogs in each. Seems like it would be worth it to me, to widen the gene pool. Even if it meant losing a specific physical type for some time. I guess that's the whole problem with all these breeders in a nut shell isn't it--- many too committed to the physical look vs other characteristics


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## Thecowboysgirl

Nobody wants to cross ASL with working lines, and not a ton seem to want to even do WGSL to working lines. I keep thinking the whites crossing back into both would potentially widen the gene pool for the whites while bringing some more moderate conformation back to the ASLs or WGSL. Seems like the whites should be similar enough to ASLs that they ought to be able to cross without major issue, or am I way off base?

Those hoofprint dogs you linked, I really really like the way they look. Looks like a normal dog that can do stuff. I just do not care for the extremes of either color show line.


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## DaBai

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are more iffy breeders for white shepherds who breed unstable white dogs due to the popular demand than any other colors. In my neighbourhood alone, there are 3 white shepherds and 2 of them need to be muzzled due to reactivity. My dog trainer who competes with her GSD also comments on the alarming ratio of whites with problems compared to the other colors.

But of course, there are definitely good breeders for whites as well. Just be careful, for GSDs, an AKC registration alone is not enough proof that the dog breeder breeds dogs that meet breed standard temperament.


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## GandalfTheShepherd

Yes I think the structure is different too, many vets and strangers in public have commented how he looks like the "old shepherd" lines, straight back normal structure. I also want to mention my boy matured extremely fast. 8 months old he was a bit of a brat and then... 1 year old he is the perfect dog, good decisions, calm, focused and knows when it's go time and when it's time to settle. My last working line sable took 4 years to mature to this point. Gandalf practically reads my mind, he acts like an old soul sometimes.


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## Thecowboysgirl

And i have been thinking my white is a late bloomer


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunsilver said:


> The white shepherd people in N. America are very much doing their own thing. They have a breed standard, breed club and their own shows. They are also allowed to show in UKC conformation shows. There is also a very extensive genetic database that lists health issues.


Exactly. There’s a difference between the breeder who ignores the GSD standard producing dogs just because they can and breeders who have invested years in developing the White Shepherd as a distinct breed. The problem is people use isolated examples of bad whites to define all whites which keeps the prejudice alive and well. Can’t imagine why people who only care about color would bother starting the Genetics Project.


Sunsilver said:


> Berger Blanc is different again. They go by FCI rules. They even stack their dogs differently:


I’m guessing but the way the dogs are stacked might tie in with the requirement that the Swiss were not allowed to draw any similarities between the BBS and the GSD during the time they were seeking provisional recognition from the FCI. I know wording of the standard had to avoid similarities, even the history of the BBS was worded to avoid saying the BBS originated from the GSD. Again, I’m guessing. Typically the White Shepherd has been placed in a 3 point stack but not overstretched like the ASL’s…either way, 4 square or 3 point stack, our dogs stand on their feet. :wink2:


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## Whiteshepherds

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yes I think the structure is different too, many vets and strangers in public have commented how he looks like the "old shepherd" lines, straight back normal structure.


White Shepherd breeders (generally speaking) have done a good job of following their standard and avoiding following in the footsteps of ASL structure. Comments from conformation judges comparing the GSD to the WS: (direct quotes)

“Sounder coming and going than the GSD. Overall sounder than the GSD.”

“Better dispositions than the GSD, no roach backs like the GSD.”

“Compared to the GSD, better bone and body substance. GSD’s are not as structurally sound.”

“Compared to the GSDs: Better quality. Better pasterns, hocks and toplines than GSD’s, not the gangliness. More bold temperaments than the GSD.”

“The structure is markedly different and movement is quite smooth and not the flying trot that GSD are striving for. The sound coming and going of the breeds we examined was refreshing to say the least.”

“Although the White Shepherd and the German Shepherd have common roots and are similar in appearance, it seems to me that the aficionados of the White Shepherd have evolved the breed to continue to meet the standard without over-emphasizing certain traits, thereby keeping this breed versatile and capable of doing a variety of tasks. Rather than emphasizing one particular aspect (head, rear-angulation, etc) as seems to have happened in German Shepherds, my observations of the breed are that more emphasis is placed on a middle of the road dog; a dog who could do many tasks, and not be hampered by extremes of any feature.”


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## CometDog

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> My last working line sable took 4 years to mature to this point


You just made me do an air suck lol


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## GandalfTheShepherd

CometDog said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> 
> My last working line sable took 4 years to mature to this point
> 
> 
> 
> You just made me do an air suck lol
Click to expand...

Haha he was crazy!!! Loved him so much though. Him and I used to run 12 miles every day, he was like the energizer bunny.


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## Mareesey

I had a solid white I bought from a backyard breeder (you live you learn). He was hands down the most chill dog I've ever owned. He was good around people, good with cats (too curious for his own good, but wouldn't chase), and good in public. I got lucky with him because the breeder was breeding for color. I'd look for a breeder who breeds for what you are looking for in a companion and narrow it down to one that has solid blacks pop up in their litters. I'd say the same for white but I'm not sure if they really pop up that often like blacks do. I was looking awhile ago and found a breeder who bred for whites but supposedly also for temperament. They had like a 2 year waiting list as they didn't breed all that often and they would only sell you a dog if they thought the pup was the perfect fit.


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## Sunsilver

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Nobody wants to cross ASL with working lines, and not a ton seem to want to even do WGSL to working lines. I keep thinking the whites crossing back into both would potentially widen the gene pool for the whites while bringing some more moderate conformation back to the ASLs or WGSL. Seems like the whites should be similar enough to ASLs that they ought to be able to cross without major issue, or am I way off base?


Seriously?? Did you look at the structure of these two dogs?? :surprise: It would be like breeding apples and oranges! The structure of the whites is much closer to the German working line dogs than the American show dogs.


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