# How's training going?



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Well hello SAR members  Been on a break for a few months, getting my butt kicked in gear in other areas of my life (work, school, gym).. but I just wanted to see how all you guys are doing in training and/or live searches.

Nothing new here, still on break from SAR started school and started at a new gym here. Those are the newest additions to the life of Whitney. Titan has LOVED every minute of the last few months, he gets much more play time, and we actually do a lot more nose work too, which he loves. Any advice to keep him up on his nosework would be awesome, we trained live find/area for almost 2 years, so I am trying not to let that dwindle too much during our down time. 

Anyways, I know a few just started out and a few have been here for a while. Just interested in what y'all are up to in your world with your pups. Hope everything is going well... looking forward to hearing from you all.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I will chime in as I intended some time ago. 

Tygo is a tough-headed pup and I felt like my bond with him was weak some time around 9 months old... he will be a year this Saturday. Some months ago he attacked a pup and puncture his ear. So this inspired me to seek out another trainer. So fourth trainer and I struck gold. My current trainer was trained by Ivan Balabanov and has two malinois and a GDS as his personal dogs. He is also a trained decoy/helper. He can read Tygo so well and brings our the very best in him. I go to training weekly to work on restructuring play so that it is less adversarial. We also have worked on obedience. The training is all one-on-one and I have now decided that I don't have use for dog classes. I get so much more out of one to one and the trainer can really zero in on my timing... which always seems to be the problem. So now I have a dog that has much better obedience, an awesome recall and I can use toys more effectively in training and as reward.

How this translates into SAR... the obedience is much more of a teamwork feel, so Tygo sort of seems to comply with intention and cooperation rather than compulsion or suspicion. The SAR work itself was not a problem, more our teamwork if that makes sense.

Currently, we are working on solidifying our alert (jump alert). I'm sort of regretting that choice of alers, as this 50 year old body getting hit by a 60 lb dog is well... probably not the smartest idea, but he does it and I'm am trying hard not to flinch. He is good at his work and seems to stay on task and seems to understand what to do once in the scent cone. We are also just starting on large-source cadaver tissues and that goes okay. He is still learning that this is something to alert on.

We have been getting our sign offs including handler sign offs like ropes, low angle rescue systems, navigation, crime scene management, radios and just finished our "unexpected night out"... only with a tarp and two bags of pine needles. Oh that felt great! ;-) NOT. Hopefully in a week we get our "hot load" on a helicopter done. Anyway, keeping to our quest which is easily a year and 1/2 away but I really enjoy the training and my training groups. 

That is my report.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Glad Titan is doing well! I've never done nosework but it sounds like great fun.

Our last training was really great. We have mostly been going out to rural areas practicing quick live find scenarios. I've been handling one of the trailing dogs and am getting good feedback/compliments from the team. The Sil Sanders tracking sem really helped with line handling and I'm starting to be able to read this particular dog really well. We have TWO puppies on our team now so training sessions are full of cuteness.  One of the dogs had a find in Oso, supposedly. I never heard the details and I wasn't there, but it sounds like the conditions were terrible.

I've slowed down training quite a bit since passing academy because I have sciatica. It took forever to get diagnosed and I was unable to go for walks for a while. I'm back on my feet conditioning and planning on a backpacking trip in June. 

Oh! And I got in touch with a local breeder I really like and she's thinking of breeding her search dog in a few years, so that fits with my timeline perfectly. I didn't realize this but I've actually run into her at obedience trials before and was admiring her shepherds.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm hearing you about body pain. I struggled with plantar faceitis and now that is not bugging me but I have an inflamed IT band at the hip. Wo is me. ;-) Hope the sciatica starts behaving!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I just got back from 5 days of seminar at Western Carolina. one day bone id human vs animal, one day health for the working k9 and three days of advanced cadaver Level 2 class. No pictures; not allowed but I am just home trying to decompress. It was intense - some great things I saw Beau do that really impressed me but some areas where we need to improve. Scenarios much tougher and more real world than any certification test...so it may take me a few days to process everything....to "recover" from the facility ( I would lie if I said it was not somewhat unsettling) and to structure a plan to correct the deficiencies we did find and to build on the really neat things we also found.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Karin: Sounds like you guys are on the right path! Glad you were able to find an amazing trainer. I have found a decent one, but not one specifically experienced with GSDs and that would be simply amazing.. I am lookforward to hearing about your further progress! 

Kaimeju: That's awesome! I wish I would have done what you are doing before starting SAR. I think it would have built a better foundation for me. Looks like that's exactly what you are doing. Awesome!! Super excited about your future pup!! Finding the right breeder is the hardest part! Looking forward to pictures and updates when the time comes. 

Nancy: I have never been to a seminar of any kind for SAR though it would be very very educational. I envy you in that area. Glad Beau did well in some of the areas that you didn't expect. I hope you aren't beating yourself up over the others. While I dont' knwo you well in the sense of family, I believe through posts and PMs I know you well enough that you will wokr through that and come out much stronger. 

Thanks guys for responding, I was really wondering how everyone was doing for a while and finally just decided to be nosey  I enjoy hearing abotu everyone's lives (K-9 and not too). 

Anyone have exciting plans for the Memorial day weekend?


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm really glad you started this thread. I love hearing about where people are and what it's like where they are working, since SAR varies so much by area and discipline. I always learn something new!



wyoung2153 said:


> Anyone have exciting plans for the Memorial day weekend?


Missing our summer practice search to go to a conference for work.  How about you?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Kaimeju said:


> I'm really glad you started this thread. I love hearing about where people are and what it's like where they are working, since SAR varies so much by area and discipline. I always learn something new!
> 
> 
> 
> Missing our summer practice search to go to a conference for work.  How about you?


OMG does it. I learned how different our group is here than everywhere else, it's all based on location and the kind of environment your dog will be in. 

I am taking on 2 additional dogs.. friend going out of town and needed theirs to be watched. It will be Titan, Remmy (1.5 yr lab/huskey) and Hera (10 month Akita). It should be a rather interesting weekend with 3 huge dogs. I have done 5 dogs before, but they were well behaved and had a much much bigger property. These 2, unfortunately are not exactly polite animals. I think it will be a lot of crate time for them too sadly, mostly because Titan has a low threshold for puppies, and it was last minute so I already had plans... which were Church volunteer gorup, then BBQ and a surprise B-Day dinner for a friend. HOPEFULLY Monday will be... relaxing and quietish. lol.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Hey Whitney, what are your plans with Titan with respect to SAR? What does your trainer say now about his behavior that lead to the SAR vacation... vacation from SAR that is? have fun with a house full O'dogs.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Karin I'll PM you a little mroe details.. but basically it's ME who isn't completely confident with Titan in that setting anymore and if I were to work a lot with him on it we could be fine. In the mean time I have just offered to be a volunteer and come when I can until a few things change.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Looks like everyone is keeping busy  

I am working away with Eyra to get her ready for her HR certification, probably looking at early fall when the heat starts to break. Also need to re-cert her for wilderness live find before June 26 so have to find a cooler evening when we can get that done. And I am working to get my USAR dog ready for her FEMA certification test late fall. Have training both Saturday and Sunday this weekend (and an HR seminar the following weekend), but I do hope to get Monday as my day "off" to do nothing, or at least a day when I do not have to see the inside of a car


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Aweseom Dino! Sounds like you are keeping busy too!! I told Nancy this, but I really envy that you guys are goign to seminars about this stuff. Curious... I see that Eyra has ScHII AND SAR.. how did that work? From my experience, if bitework has been done on a dog, typically SAR won't take them.. I'm intrigued.


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## Taz's Mom (Mar 8, 2014)

Taz and I just went Saturday for our first tranning with a great search team that was willing for us to come and train with them. We have just gotten started as Taz is only 6 months old, we have a long way to go and a lot to learn. He is doing great and gets super excited when I get his harness out, he knows what we are going to do. Wish I had pics to post from Saturday, but I forgot my camera. Maybe as we are doing our "homework" before the next tranning I can get some pics.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

I know of a couple of other SAR dogs with ScHH titles  and also groups that will take SchH trained dogs. 

In my case, there are a few people in my group that are active in SchH so they know and understand what it's all about. But bottom line is that each dog is carefully evaluated and it does come down to the individual dog. Eyra is absolutely rock solid in terms of temperament and nerve.

There is another thread about this...I will find the link.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The topic is very much team specific and sometimes state-specific. Yes there are several threads on this to go search for.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One thing about going to seminars is you meet people that you see time and time again over the years. I'm at my breeder in a seminar. And I've met people who have given me countless help and advice over the years it is a wonderful way to prevent the inbreeding that often occurs when a team only trains within itself

EDIT-plans for Memorial Day weekend. Clean out my truck from the seminar. And we have water training all day Saturday with our NEW 8hp 4cycle gas engine. We have gone through 2 trolling motoris so this is new ground for us. We got 4 cycle because it has far less fumes than 2 cycle and this will make our boat actually usable on some searches.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

We were supposed to have water training Sunday but due to the location we have access to and the water levels/tide/currents we have to reschedule. So instead we will train at a junk yard, or perhaps I should call in an auto salvage yard. Either way, it's a fun place to train.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Water training made me think... I have to teach Tygo to SWIM! That is a sign off I will need. He seems to love water, but doesn't let go of the bottom. Got to get my wetsuit out and get in with him. This weekend is supposed to be warm... might have to do that.
That will be our water training.

Cool reports everyone.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Awesome you guys!! I love hearing how you all are doing!! Taz, share those pics when you get them  we'd love to see!! 

Dino, I got the link and have looked.. real interesting. Changes some things a bit. 

Nancy, good luck with your truck.. I just saw you post about it but I haven't looked at that thread yet! Haha. Good to know about the seminars, how do you learn about them?? I never hear anything like that, but I would like to go to one, one of these days.

Karin, let us know how the swimming lessons go!! Sometimes I wish I hadn't given Titan the chance to learn to swim.. he is addicted, be careful


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A lot of seminars are annual events and, once you go, you get put on the mailing list. Others are announced on K9 SAR specific forums. [usually not a lot of discussion on the ones I participate in, but seminar announcements etc.]


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

I am on hold as well, Whitney. I am helping out my team for the time being.

I don't know if you remember but we sorta met when you were in CA? You came to my training class with a friend but we didn't get the chance to be introduced, I do believe you watched class for a little while. Wow how long ago was that? It's been quite some time.

My dog has a medical issue and the vet said no SAR for us I posted about it in the health section, unfortunately not too many people responded, it is a very rare condition. She has a sub ararchnoid cyst on her lower spine. Not only is it very rare it is even more rare in the GSD, the vet that did the MRI said he has never seen it in a GSD. They can fix it with surgery, very delicate surgery, but these tend to come back, so I am still in limbo, I don't think she can do SAR even after the surgery though. She can do a lot but SAR is just too strenuous.

Dutch Karin, wow, I really enjoyed my UNO. Wasn't it fun! LOL My dog was awake all night watching something in the forest, you could tell something was out there as her head would move to watch whatever was wandering around out there! LOL Glad you got that done and congratulations on becoming an apprentice!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Hi GSD2.

Where you located? I'm assuming you are CARDA. So sorry about your pup. I can only imagine how disappointed that feels. But you sound like the type of person who will adapt well to whatever is next for you two.

I too have a dog that was up all night on the UNO. He slept by my side for MAYBE 20 minutes. I was so jealous of the people who said their dogs snuggled with them all night. 

Take good care! 
P.S. I'm up at Tahoe and train with the Truckee and Nevada County groups.


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm in southern CA, LA area. Yes, I am a member of CARDA. Actually this has been very tough to adapt to......


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

GSD2 said:


> I am on hold as well, Whitney. I am helping out my team for the time being.
> 
> I don't know if you remember but we sorta met when you were in CA? You came to my training class with a friend but we didn't get the chance to be introduced, I do believe you watched class for a little while. Wow how long ago was that? It's been quite some time.


Sorry.. very very long last few weeks... BUT If it is the time I remember, it was.. wow.. 2 years ago? Was it with Jeremy and Kiersten? In lancaster?


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

wyoung2153 said:


> Sorry.. very very long last few weeks... BUT If it is the time I remember, it was.. wow.. 2 years ago? Was it with Jeremy and Kiersten? In lancaster?


Yeah, wow, 2 years ago, unreal, how time flies! It's been a very adventurous 2 years for me, it sounds like you were busy, too


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Oh dear has it ever! We're actually heading that way in a couple weeks. Still training out there? Do you still keep in touch with Jeremy and them?

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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

How's everyone this week? Any new accomplishments or new scenarios faced?


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

wyoung2153 said:


> How's everyone this week? Any new accomplishments or new scenarios faced?


Hot, humid and miserable in DC this week, but it's supposed to get better.

Had a great time at our HR training weekend at the beginning of the month. Lots of great learning and great to meet new people and watch nice dogs work  Next up, I hope to go to NC for a 3 day work shop with Randy Hare at the end of the month. Should be a great time!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lucky you for the Randy Hare workshop; should be great. Between the NAPWDA test, WCU Adv HRD and upcoming Old Dominion in September I am seminar-ed out. We will be training with a county agency next month who wanted to get together on water.

Pretty much in maintain mode hear due to the recent heat. Unghh.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Wish us luck, having had to cancel our last scheduled attempt, we are set to get our helicopter hot load sign off this Sunday! Woop!

Tygo has been having some GI problems that have slowed us down a bit lately in training and having to cancel out on a few trainings. I'm hoping that he is on the mend.

I finished my navigation courses and went on a backpack trip and was the navigation queen. I LOVE maps, compasses and GPS units.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

DutchKarin said:


> Wish us luck, having had to cancel our last scheduled attempt, we are set to get our helicopter hot load sign off this Sunday! Woop!


Helo training is so much fun!! We did one in May. Hot loaded, flew and hoisted own, did a quick search, and hoisted back up and then landed. Loved it!! 

Here is me and my Mal getting ready to hoist down.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Very very cool DinoBlue! And a mal to boot. Love the photo. What exactly is a "hoist"? I'll be loading, flying, dropping off and doing a search I think.

I'll let you know how it goes.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

DutchKarin said:


> Very very cool DinoBlue! And a mal to boot. Love the photo. What exactly is a "hoist"? I'll be loading, flying, dropping off and doing a search I think.


Hoist - we were lowered down from the helicopter in a wire from a winch. Everyone was wearing hoist harnesses and we were clipped in with safety lines in the helicopter and then switched to the winch clip as we approached the door before we were lowered down to the ground. Our training hoist was only about 15 feet or so, but on a real deployment it will usually be a lot higher. I will add that this training was not for my wilderness team but for my USAR team so the requirements are a bit different  
(I have a GSD for wilderness/HR and a Malinois for USAR)


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

DutchKarin said:


> I finished my navigation courses and went on a backpack trip and was the navigation queen. I LOVE maps, compasses and GPS units.


I need to learn to be like that, Lol. That was actually where I struggled most. And to think.. I'm int military and have taken a number of navigation courses.. I guess when I don't use it enough to really hold on to it. 



DinoBlue said:


> Helo training is so much fun!! We did one in May. Hot loaded, flew and hoisted own, did a quick search, and hoisted back up and then landed. Loved it!!
> 
> Here is me and my Mal getting ready to hoist down.


That looks awesome! Something I would definitely like to try one day!!



DinoBlue said:


> Hoist - we were lowered down from the helicopter in a wire from a winch. Everyone was wearing hoist harnesses and we were clipped in with safety lines in the helicopter and then switched to the winch clip as we approached the door before we were lowered down to the ground. Our training hoist was only about 15 feet or so, but on a real deployment it will usually be a lot higher. I will add that this training was not for my wilderness team but for my USAR team so the requirements are a bit different
> (I have a GSD for wilderness/HR and a Malinois for USAR)


Can you explain a little bit of the difference? 

BTW I am living vicariously through you guys right now. Returning to SAR doesn't seem to be in my near future unfortunately.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Pretty exciting. Any helo training we have had is just helicopter safety and not for transport. Our big excitement is riding in the back of a gator. Don't get me wrong, I have said a couple of prayers in the back of one of those things....same thing for ropes.....we don't do any high angle stuff..........


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

wyoung2153 said:


> I need to learn to be like that, Lol. That was actually where I struggled most. And to think.. I'm int military and have taken a number of navigation courses.. I guess when I don't use it enough to really hold on to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


USAR is normally a more hostile environment to work in then a wilderness environment, and I am not making light of wilderness, there are plenty of dangers out in the woods. But as a USAR team you respond to disasters, earthquakes, tornadoes, flooding/mudslides, etc. And going into a disaster zone, there is a possibility that the only way to get to your work site may be via helicopter and being hoisted down. We have done helo hot loads with our wilderness team to get the dogs used to the helicopters just in case, but no hoisting involved there.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Pretty exciting. Any helo training we have had is just helicopter safety and not for transport. Our big excitement is riding in the back of a gator. Don't get me wrong, I have said a couple of prayers in the back of one of those things....same thing for ropes.....we don't do any high angle stuff..........


I like gator rides, but I think I have had the luck of getting the nice guys driving. Never done any rope stuff with my dog, done some without my dog but that's it. How do you set up training for that?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

So tonight I did scent games with Titan in the back yard. First time we have ever done that at night. There was little to no light.. just my small porch light. For not doing anything scent related for about 2 months.. he did FANTASTIC. He didn't skip a beat. We did about 5 sessions of hiding his toy... high ground, low ground, hidden, in plain sight, and at his level. He loved it! Everything from the alert when he can't get to it, to the show me.. it was just flawless. 

I almost regret doing this with him because it makes me reaffirm how AMAZING he is as SAR work and I just can't do it right now with things going on in my life. I wish more than anything that I could find a team in my area without driving 1.5 hours.. it would honestly make a world of difference... *sigh* I am going to have to be sure to keep these game up with him... he loves them so much. As soon as I said "smell" and showed him the toy, he knew. Makes me sad that timing and/or location just isn't right for us.. I even removed the team from my signature block because I didn't want to falsely claim it


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

DinoBlue said:


> I like gator rides, but I think I have had the luck of getting the nice guys driving. Never done any rope stuff with my dog, done some without my dog but that's it. How do you set up training for that?


The ride of note was about 30 minutes into deep woods on a foot trail. The back end slid out and hit a few trees and we were on the side of a mountain and it was straight down. Over some logs and through some creeks. He was booking it. Then we got on the road. I am there with my feet braced against the tailgate and have Beau pinned down to the bed of the little truck section with all my might. I swear he was doing 45 on those switchbacks.

One time I declined to let my dog ride on my lap on an ATV with two other fellows (three of us on the ATV and a dog?-and not one of us was a lightweight!). Grim rode in the back of the coroners van but I still wound up on the ATV...

I don't have a clue on the ropes....with a dog.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Whitney. I think you should move. What the heck. 

I jest.... hey it took me until 49 years old to feel ready... your time will come! 

karin


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Lol, I wish I could just move.. That would be lovely  

I just have to be patient!!! Like you guys have been!


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Back from our 3-day seminar with Randy Hare. Had a great time and enjoyed the whole experience very much. Learning did occur 

Short video of Eyra working the rack, scent source is HR.

Eyra HR - YouTube


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Randy puts on a great seminar!!!!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Don't know Randy but I am sure I would love to go to his seminar.. 

How is everyone this week?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Tygo ran away with a human femur. I told them I wanted to keep him on a long line, but they said, "No, he is doing well"... then they said, "ummm okay, keep him on a long line".


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Oh dear.. lol.. at least you know that you know your dog now. Haha annnnd hopefully they will trust your judgement in the future!


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## Taz's Mom (Mar 8, 2014)

Finally remembered to carry camera to training. Sorry not focused Taz was hot on the track and my daughter was having trouble keeping up.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Love the pictures! It's something I wish I did more of when we were training.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Well I do hope that everyone's month is going well! I actually DO have an update  You guys know I have been out of training for a few months.. but took Titan to SAR training this past Saturday. Started out as just me wanted to visit the team and catch up and help out where I could. Someone asked if Titan was coming so I decided he could come, if for nothing other than socializing and OB. We did off leash OB with SO many people around, there was apparently an auction across the street where we were based.. so people were coming and going, left and right. Titan did fantastic. At the end, one of our trainers asked if I wanted to just do a fun scenario with Titan. Small search just for him to have fun. We did. He did everything awesome!!! Didn't forget a thing and was perfect. I loved seeing him work again, even if it was just for fun 

How's everything going??


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Nothing really new or exciting here....I am in one of those times when.....priorities etc. sometimes it is a challenge and I think anyone in SAR has gone through that at some time or another.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Things going well here. 

Nix has been started on HR, and is getting quite proficient. Very happy with his progress. He still has no idea what "go find" means, but the second he gets into scent he is all over the hunt. Very happy with his progress. 

I will be starting increasingly difficult hides with him soon, right now they are pretty out in the open, the "hardest" was in between fence slats. But he kept working at found it. I am liking his work ethic! His ball drive is not great, so the rewarding can be difficult, but he is a dog that likes to hunt for the sake if hunting. Gonna have to see if I can get it to translate when the "going gets tough". We shall see. 


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Thought I would report in.

I have added some short foundational work with Tygo to reinforce his alerts and his completing the refind of the subject. This is an example of not thinking through the whole effort. Because it was short distance, Tygo whipped around to come back and do his jump alert at about 75 yards. I stupidly did this exercise in a meadow. Well he was coming back at a 1000 mph with no obstacles to slow him down he got faster and faster. I felt that I was in one of those video clips of the guy in the bite suit about to be taken down. My eyes must have gotten really big. My sponsor (trainer) said in a low voice, "This is not good" and I eventually yelled an expletive and I am sure I flinched. Tygo picked up my apprehension and blew off the alert. So I really messed that up. Sort distance work will now be done where there are lots of obstacles so he cannot pick up that speed, I will get a vest to protect me a bit, and I will train my self to say "good dog" when I really mean "expletive". Another great example of how much I have to learn.

A training success... yesterday I was out walking in the woods up a steep slope. Tygo was 50 yards ahead of me and getting really agitated by a scent (we were not SAR training). I yelled "wait" and he did! Body stiff, piloerection all down his back (as a opposed to just at his shoulder) and tail up and rapidly shaking. He held the wait command, I got there and 30 yards away was momma bear with her two cubs. Most the dogs around here chase and tree bears including my neighbor's 25 lb terrier. I was so happy he held the wait so solidly. Fingers crossed on coyote which worries me way more than bears.

We also did a SAR training this weekend and got a lot of the obedience out of the way as well as navigation skills, which I love. BUT, I could see after an hour of obedience work, Tygo's brain going to mush. At least I know the limits now. Relatively speaking he did great and am happy with it all. He is 15 months old and getting more and more trainable, focused and solid. We have some work to do on long downs with distraction. There were 13 dogs doing obedience in a busy campground so this was at the top end of distraction for us. 

So we keep at it. I have way more to learn than Tygo that is for sure. 

One note of interest. The mission ready teams got called out to one of our main training areas. I don't think the dog teams found the guy who had hung himself, but strange that it was in one of our areas that we used almost once a month.

Next thing is to train directionals and send outs. We are weak in that area.

Karin


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Thank for the update Karin  That is pretty awesome to read.. all your successes with Tygo!! Good thing about the bears! I would have been so worried after that.. but maybe you guys deal with it more out there.. why would you be more worried about coyotes? Just more daring than the bears?

Mind sharing how you guys train directionals and send outs? My team doesn't do that but I have always wondered how. Just the other day when I was working with TItan in the yard. I was walking him to the other side of the yard to prep for a low distraction recall and maybe some downs on some of them.. but I was like... this would be so much easier if I could just tell him to go somewhere instead of walking him and placing him in a down/sit-stay.... seems like it would be a similar training technique.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Living in bear habitat I just find them much more interested in staying away. Smart dogs know to keep a healthy distance but unfortunately dogs find it great sport to tree the bears. Over the years I have only heard one or two instances were a dog was injured by a bear and in these cases, the dog was harassing the bear. Now these are black bears mind you and the ones I'm around are keen to break into houses and eat garbage rather than hunt so to speak.

Coyotes are much more devious and there are many more stories of the coyote baiting dogs away with fake play bows and such and then when they have the dog isolated, multiple coyotes come out to attack. People say they don't pack... maybe not like wolves but they do travel together at times and they will attack together despite what people say. I think Tygo might be much more inclined to give chase on a coyote. I'm always amazed how dogs just KNOW they are different. Tygo has seen them from the house and has gone ballistic. My old aussies did too.. they just know, even with no sight and minimal scent if any that they are not dogs.

So bring on the bears, I'm okay with that.


Whitney, here is an article for training direction that I might use. Cool site nonetheless..
Articles on Training SAR K9s - Virginia Search and Rescue Dog Association 
Scroll down.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I have only browsed but this site looks really really cool Thank you for sharing!

It makes sense now that I think about it. I remember hearing something about coyotes baiting animals out to attack them in a group. We lived ina neighborhood with many when I was younger. 

We encounter black bears here too just not quite as often. They are here and we have warning signs everywhere but in the 3 years I have been here, I have only seen a handful and they are usually out of the city in the wooded areas more than the main parts of town where we get a lot of the warnings.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We have started with the VSARDA directional training; I have heard quite a few people say it is the best approach.

I have been kind of backed off for awhile. My mother passed away on Monday and it has been a lot leading up to that. This was long in coming; she had a stroke n 2007 and has lived with us since but the past three months had been very much downhill. I know it is a blessing but it is still hard. Both of my parents have died in our house. I am ok with that but you can't shake the memories of them that are associated with the house. Not that i want too.

Most of my time away from her has gone into my job or the garden lately. Will be getting back full force in the fall.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Oh Nancy, my sympathies are with you. I wish you peach on your journey with grief. Thoughts are with you.
Karin


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Nancy, I am so sorry for your loss.. I know it was expected, so to speak, but it doesn't make it easier. Sending lots of love and prayers your way.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Eyra's HR work is coming along great! We need a little more work on buried, but we are almost ready to certify! We are aiming to get it all set up for the first part of November.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Yay!! That's good news!!! I can't wait to hear that you are all certified and good to go!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Let us know how it goes. Who will you certify with?

We are doing our first (me and Beau) team training after about a 2 month "break" this Saturday. Water training.


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Let us know how it goes. Who will you certify with?


ARDA (American Rescue Dog Association)


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

Vader just experienced his first time practicing for getting lifted in the helicopter by going up about 20 feet. I don't think I've ever seen a dog glare at me so hard, but he did great! No flailing, thrashing, or whining. He also didn't pee on my head so I'm very thankful for that. 

He doesn't seem to enjoy air scenting as much as cadaver so I think I want to focus on cadaver first and air scenting second. 

We also did a run through for I believe my chief called it P.A.W.D but it was the first I'd heard of it and haven't found any info on it. He met firefighters in full turn out gear with equipment, did basic CGC tasks (which we're getting ready to take), and all we have to work on is emergency downs and I think we'll pass. So proud of him.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

That sounds awesome. Yay Vader! I'd be interested to see how Titan would do beung airlifted like that. Never heard of P.A.W.D before either.. interesting.


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

I was sure he would flail, but for the majority the dogs did okay when they were watching their handler under them. I bet Titan would do okay too! We had one GSD flail a little, but other than that all of them were good. All of them brought their feet in and almost curled them up under them which was kind of interesting to watch. And mine looked at me like I should make sure the crate door was closed when I went to sleep or he'd get some sort of retaliation since I won't do ropes myself. 

I'm hoping I don't have the name wrong. Before I was corrected I was calling it the "pod test". I should probably learn to ask what I'm doing more often so I can talk about it with others.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Haha! I understand.. I'll have to ask about it. Is the lift training done through your team or do you have another group or organization you do it through? Did he wear a muzzle?


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

We did it through the team. All of our dogs went up, and our team lifted them while handlers stood under them to make sure they didn't freak out. 
Nope, no muzzle! He got strapped into the harness and walked over to where we had the rope set up. We were doing it gradually off the side of the building, and then we're working up to with a lot of noise to mimic the helicopter. And after the team members on rope let him down, I came over and unhooked him and unstrapped him from the harness. So really I was the only one he'd have the chance to snap at and I wasn't concerned about it.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My team did a repelling excersise with our dogs. It was great fun. All the dogs handled it amazing. We made zip lines from a building to the ground, dogs and handlers strapped in together and went down the zip line together.


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

That sounds so much fun! I'd probably be more afraid than he is, though it not being held by people would be a little more reassuring. Did you get the glare or did your dog enjoy it?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Darth_Ariel said:


> That sounds so much fun! I'd probably be more afraid than he is, though it not being held by people would be a little more reassuring. Did you get the glare or did your dog enjoy it?



I don't know that enjoy is the right word. But she tolerated it. LOL. We did have people manning the ropes. One scenario the rest of team slowly lowered us through an open stairway and down 6 floors. That was great!!! But I used to climb, so was pretty comfy trusting professional ropes people to handle belaying. 

You should talk to your group about setting up helicopter training. Our state police just did a whole training day with us. We did not get to actually fly, but we did loading and unloading while the rotors were going. That was super interesting. Watching the dogs learn to deal with the down wash of the rotors, some did great. Some flipped out. My dog freaked, until I pulled out her tug. Then we tugged inside the wash for a bit. Worked great!!! Most State police will do this for certified agencies. Just have to ask.


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

That sounds awesome...so long as I don't have to do it! I'm such a chicken with trusting someone won't drop me, even though we have the team pros on the ropes. I'm convinced someone is going to drop me or ask me to go easy for the holiday season! 

One of our dogs did a happy dance when we let her down. Though we're not sure if it was because she enjoyed being up there or was happy to be on the ground again. 

I believe either them or Lifeflight is coming to work with us soon. We wanted to get them used to the elevation and sound first before we brought out the real thing. I don't know what they're planning for the sound and wind, but they had a look in their eye that suggests it's going to be interesting.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I'm curious what kinds of teams you are on actually? I apparently am not associated with the right ones, lol. JK. I loved my team I worked with but it just didn't seem to have so many of these options. It was strict nose work. Air scent, cadaver and tracking in the woods and sometimes in a building area.


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

gsdsar sounds way more exciting than mine with ziplines and lowered into buildings! I think we've implemented some of the newer things (helicopter being the main one) because we're either accepted to PEMA or are in the process of. 

I'd actually love to see other teams just to know the difference between ours and others.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The team I did ropes and helicopter training with is a FEMA team. 

But I know the helicopter guys have done similar training with local wilderness teams.


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

Maybe being part of the FEMA on a national or state level is what contributes to that? 

Do other teams not do ropes? I'd thought for sure they would. Though I know we rarely ever do it from what the old timers said.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It depends on what the teams do. We are local wilderness and, no, we don't do ropes other than some low angle stuff and I have only known of one search that we were involved in where that would have been remotely a chance.

In that search the dogs started pulling towards a straight drop-off, a helo was dispatched to scan the area based on feedback from the dog handlers, she was seen on a ledge and the high angle folks got to her. There was no need to rappel the dogs down.

We do stuff we are more likely to have to do like ride off trail in gators with several handlers and dogs at the same time, The HR dogs must be able to balance on any kind of boat. etc., crossing creeks,


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

Huh. I guess I just always figured most teams were pretty much the same. That's pretty interesting though! It also took me a few minutes to figure out what you meant with gators.

I think we do wilderness for a few counties, disaster anywhere in the state and offer for larger ones (9/11 and Katrina I know the team did), urban search, ropes, and water.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We did turn down an invite for Katrina and glad we did. We felt ill prepared for massive floodwater search. The two dogs we know who did go were dead of cancer within the year. Actually floodwater and cancer seem to go together. I know several who have died that way. I carry dawn in my truck for decon. Need to get a portable shower.

LOL yeah. the gator as in the 4WD mini truck but we have to deal with gators as in alligators in the low country


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

That's awful x.x My team knock on all the wood things hasn't lost the oldest dogs we have that were part of it. But recently lost the one that was apart of 9/11 and Katrina. And not surprisingly enough she'd gone through cancer, went into remission and I believe kidney failure started. The girl lived to I think she was 15 though. I'm hesitant on all things disaster relief for that reason. I know what comes with the volunteering, but I think some situations are just asking for health issues. 
Dawn is actually a really good idea, thank you for that! I'll have to put some in my bag. 

Ya'll get gators that far up? I didn't think they went above Georgia. I give water teams in the south so much credit. I was raised most of my life in Florida and I don't think I could ever be on a team down there.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This is about right for the gators. Glad your team did not suffer the cancer issues. I would not count it at 15 but these were fairly young dogs.

Species Profile: American Alligator (Alligator mississippiensis) | SREL Herpetology

When we train at Western Carolina the human decomp facility, they always have us decon the dogs after going into the enclosure and I got to thinking other times when the dogs are in questionable environments it is so easy to do. Usually when I get home but I do want to buy one of those portable showers. I think a car wash would be too much .

Well trained yesterday with a teammate during lunch and that was good. Doing water training again on Saturday.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Simple green, a hose and brush. Best Decon possible. It's what we use in USAR.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Wow thats a butyl cleaner; a respiratory irritant. Is it because it does a better job than Dawn? Dawn was what we used at the FOREST (WCU)

http://simplegreen.com/pdfs/MSDS_EN-US_AllPurposeCleaner.pdf


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

jocoyn said:


> Wow thats a butyl cleaner; a respiratory irritant. Is it because it does a better job than Dawn? Dawn was what we used at the FOREST (WCU)
> 
> http://simplegreen.com/pdfs/MSDS_EN-US_AllPurposeCleaner.pdf



I don't know much about it. But it's the safest based on FEMA research. It's what's required in our cache. Never had an issue. Was told it was all natural. Now I am going to look it up. Dawn is gentle and safe, yes, but it leaves residue, suds a lot, and does not work for everything we come in contact with.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interesting; I would love to hear what you find. Obviously we don't get into the stuff you might get in but swamp goo is nasty stuff and if it kills germs....... ON a side note training yesterday was good and bad. 

Bad...had some real regression on water search training. Going to seek out some help. He was gangbusters when younger.....so good that at 15 months he "beat out" the other dogs during our NAPWDA test for closeness to source on the boat problems. Had some water finds in real life, too. But it is just like he is not even throwing body language on the boat. or getting down to the water......right now he is not going to work any drownings and we have over the winter to fix. It's all good with land problems....not sure what is going on.

Good...after training..it was only me and another team dog and both our dogs were out. Beau is an 'only dog' now and I like to gauge his behavior around other dogs. Perfect. Some sniff sniffs (she is intact female, he is intact male)......then off to sniff dog poo, pee, and look for sticks and run in the water. IOW, meh, just another dog. "Mom,can you throw this stick for me?" [and I don't even throw sticks, but I learned awhile back not to throw toys around another dog unless you know what is going to happen]


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

anything found on the simple greem search??

Started reading (well picked the book back up since a few months ago) "Scent of the Missing" by Susannah Charleson this weekend. About half way through and I love it. Anyone read this before? 

I love reading about the searches and realizign how much I actually retained from training, lol. It is making me a bit itchy with wanting to get back into it. Started to try and convince myself it was time to get back to the team, but then having to remind myself why I left, that now isn't the time, and my time will come. But man it's one of those books that just makes me want to start all over in training. 

Looking forward to the day where I can find a team closer to me and a little more of what I'm looking for, not to mention when I can specifically buy a pup with that criteria in mind!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Found a neat link with all kinds of information......

http://www.cseppportal.net/CSEPP_Portal_Resources/Canine_Deccon_Gordon_USandR.pdf


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Interesting Nancy! Thanks for sharing!


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

Haven't been on in a while, been pretty busy 

We decided instead of Live and Cadaver searches Vader is going to focus on Cadaver only (land and water). I figured with trying to work and do SAR that it would be more responsible to do searches that weren't always urgent. 
He'd be the first Cadaver only dog on the team, since they prefer all of the dogs to be able to do both live and cadaver. But I just don't think I can do it. 
We haven't been able to train since that decision unfortunately so he's not where I would like him to be in terms of training.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hey all! I trained with CARDA back in the early 90's although my dog passed before becoming mission ready. I started doing some equine training up where I live, but life got in the way. I've been playing with my 7mos old pup and DANG! She has it!! Really hits the scent hard and is determined! So I'm going to seek out the teams around my neck of the woods and start training again. My pups mom is a certified sar and her dad is certified cadaver, so she is just showing her genes . 

God bless! 
Misty


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

Well, I guess this is most likely my last post in this part of the forum. I figured this was training-y even though it means there's no longer any training.
Unfortunately Vader and I decided to leave our SAR team and they control all of the other teams in the immediate area since they have the most experience so I won't be joining a new team for as long as I'm living here. 

I honestly just couldn't do it anymore. I was driving 3-4 hours for every meeting, fundraiser, training, ect. We were only getting 10-15 minutes of training time and if we had a busy class month he got 0 training time in. And feeling like I was in a high school with the cliques just took too much out of me. Which is really unfortunate because I think Vader would have been pretty great (only semi fur-mom biased with that).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sorry to hear that. That has got to be very frustrating for you.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Darth_Ariel said:


> Well, I guess this is most likely my last post in this part of the forum. I figured this was training-y even though it means there's no longer any training.
> Unfortunately Vader and I decided to leave our SAR team and they control all of the other teams in the immediate area since they have the most experience so I won't be joining a new team for as long as I'm living here.
> 
> I honestly just couldn't do it anymore. I was driving 3-4 hours for every meeting, fundraiser, training, ect. We were only getting 10-15 minutes of training time and if we had a busy class month he got 0 training time in. And feeling like I was in a high school with the cliques just took too much out of me. Which is really unfortunate because I think Vader would have been pretty great (only semi fur-mom biased with that).


I am sorry to hear that. I didn't get to chat with you, but I enjoyed reading your posts. I have heard of other people having similar problems so you are not alone. Will you do other work with Vader? I hope you get to come back to SAR.

We had a somewhat sad week as a team member resigned. Nothing terrible happened, it was just time, I guess. I am organizing a first aid class for my team and finishing an online course. Thanks to Nancy's help and my team leader I was able to find a few people who could answer my questions about air scent. I am still a little concerned about being able to set up enough training opportunities, but for the puppy stuff I think it will be okay. I am visiting my breeder next weekend. The dam's pregnancy is going well so far. She is due first week of Feb!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Sorry to hear. Sounds like the group should break up into smaller training groups. That is how we work, still a lot of driving but I feel like I get my training in.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

And me... progressing well. Typo is alerting without cue and I am officially the weak link. 
;-)
We start Avalanche training this Sunday.
The big score last weekend was that he did not eat the placenta... a whole one left open in a baking dish under a bush. WAHOOO. That is gross I know but when you get into SAR these things are just interesting. Not having kids, I have never scene a real placenta. Was cool in my science head sort of way.

Onward!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We are doing well. A teammate who is gone during the summer is back and we do a lot of training together. Some very good HR scenarios. I also want to tighten up some things and bought a K9 BSD and 4 boxes. I have borrowed them before but looking forward to having another tool for when I have to train alone (Not so much scenarios but tightening indication, getting better commitment to source at a distance etc.)


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## Darth_Ariel (Jun 20, 2013)

It's been a busy month so I haven't gotten around to answering! 

Kaimeju- It's unfortunate that I'm not alone, there were some elements I really enjoyed. But most of them centered around enjoying how much Vader enjoyed it. He was 100% my motivation for staying the almost 2 years that I did. I want to, I just don't know exactly what I'll do with him yet. He's been pretty expressive that he's bored. He's been doing this for most of the 2 years he's been alive, and I really don't know how to switch gears and give him something else to do. 

Dutch-I don't think it would help honestly. We had days where there were only 4 of the 10 dogs present and it still was 3 hours of training and Vader got in maybe 15 minutes? There's a lot of control issues at play and a few gossiping problems for the people who are supposed to be doing the training. On occasion the newer people got to do an unsupervised runaway and leave it at that, but switching over to cadaver only meant Vader was spending almost 3 hours straight in the car not counting our 4 hour driving time. Getting home was always an episode of the zoomies 


I will say I also started to feel like he was repeatedly set up for failure and that didn't sit well with me. The chief knows his stuff, he's very educated on older practices. Great guy, but some days he'd exceed a dog's skill level and tell us it was to test them. The last training we had Vader hadn't done a run in 2 months, he has only experienced HR scent maybe 15 times since he was brought in at 6 months (which isn't enough imo) and I was told to let him off leash and have him find the source in the woods and the source had mildewed. The more experienced dogs were even having difficulty with it. So Vader was on the scent for a minute or two and then decided after 3 hours in the car he would rather play with sticks and snow. I was so embarrassed trying to get him to understand it was time to work not time to play. 

I'm glad everyone is doing well on their training! 
Way to go Tygo!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Been a couple of months since the last post... Been taking my pups to training and training just about every day at home. THEY ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT, lol! They each have their preference on discipline (Akivah loves area and Areli trail/tracking), but both are irrepressible when it's time (or they eve think it's time) to work. 

We didn't have much of a winter this year (unfortunately, although I am sure those of you on the east coast would have loved to send us some of your weather, haha) and it is really warming up early. Curious on how you guys keep your dogs cool during summer training..


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

People I have talked to about keeping dogs cool have recommended vent locks for vehicles, crate fans, and gel crate pads that can be frozen (of course you put them underneath another thick pad.) I think I will end up using all of the above this summer.

I got my new truck setup finished. Leer 180 canopy and we built a platform one Friday evening. Playing with power tools is probably my favorite way to spend time with my husband (especially because I don't know what to do without him!)










Duncan has started his training regularly now and is doing well. I decided to cross-train him in cadaver and air scent live find. I do not know if I will do the certification test for cadaver, but I want him to be equally confident following both types of scent since on most of the wilderness missions we do, the status of the subject is unknown. So, we may not work all of the scenarios such as building and vehicle at first. He has a solid final response already (he just kind of decided to do it, I didn't have to ask for one). We are doing lines of blocks in different configurations. For live find we are doing runaways and he loves it. My team has stepped up to the plate to be subjects, so I'm not worried about that anymore. We are having a really good year. 

Not SAR-related, but I have Gypsy doing TD length tracks now. She is working really well lately. Only problem I have with her is corners- she either gets them immediately or blows past them completely.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My topper is also the Leer 180. Love it.

Beau passed his NAPWDA recert again back in March (already posted about it) and I am beginning to add airscent live find. I am a big proponent for single purpose dogs and am being very careful with the training documentation and scenarios to show a clear separation of orienting cues, proper focus, etc., but we could use more live find dogs as some are getting old and others recovering from CCL injuries, and I think he will be a quick learn. First priority for him is the HRD, though.

Plan to maintain our NAPWDA cadaver certifications but really add more focus into water and less on criminal type searches. The state is crawling with cadaver dogs and I would rather have my day on a boat than in a courtroom; being good at water takes some finesse. Still maintaining proficiency in the other disciplines while working on specializing.

Have a 3 day water training weekend with some folks on another team in May, several Fridays with the SO dive team, team training days scheduled at least once a month for water on my team, a probable other 3 day summer weekend the other team, and a weeklong seminar in advanced water cadaver in October.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I finished all my sign offs for handler and dog and now heading toward testing. We are really working hard on consistency in alert. I have a bit of a problem because I flinch a lot with a jump alert. Wasn't probably the best idea to go with it. Tygo is a fast fast 65 lb of muscle flying at me and I cannot help but flinch. When Tygo can see me and look in my eyes after a find he tends to just stare at me rather than alert. So we are going back to basics a bit. Targeting the fall for testing in air scent/area/wilderness.

We did a cool training in the coastal red woods. Wahoo, can you say STEEP! Fun navigating in there and wahoo no ticks or poison oak!

I'm joining a county SAR team and will be a ground pounder for the summer but this team likes dogs so all looks good after we certify.

Best to all of you. That Duncan is a cutie!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Where are you targeting the hit for the jump alert. It is not as bad if he hits you on the hip. It is definitely the easiest alert to build consistency. Have you tried having your back to him and moving away from him when he returns to you? If he can't see your eyes it may help.

Right now I am building a bark bark bark on Beau when he returns, but am just in the 2nd part of back chaining--though I am having to be creative so that he comes all the way into me before he barks. I did not want him jumping on me because he is so pushy, and he is also a freight train.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I am working on an alert behavior too, separate from other training exercises. Jump is most reliable by far right now (scary). I can't really get him to bark, and he is confused about grabbing a bringsel. He keeps wanting to sit for the toy. Actually, his most reliable behavior is sitting. The jump is fine, he tends to hit my thigh right now, although a lot of the time he grabs me in a bear hug instead. Maybe I should shape a "hug alert"


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I think if I did it all over again, I would have worked harder on the people bringsel. I think it is harder to train but that just seems safer if you are 50 years old and have a pushy drive muscle of a dog. Have to say that I have never seen anyone use it though, probably because the jump alert is so easy to train. And smarter people do bark or sit alerts and save their bodies! ;-)

I think I'm not too consistent in where I target. Now I just pat my chest, I think. I'll pat lower now and be super consistent. My plan is to do 20 cued alerts and then see what we have and then, if it goes well, do 10 cued alerts in a row and see and then start mixing it up. I am also working on keeping moving when he is coming back after a find. As a relative novice I make a lot of mistakes without knowing it. Some around me just say keep moving but don't emphasize anything too out of the ordinary until I'm mission ready. They discourage moving away from the dog so he has to hit my back. Again, a big push here is to get the basics and get the cert and then start training for real if that makes sense. I don't like that but I get why they say that. 

I like the idea of a hug and sweet kisses alert. hahahaha... I think they would throw me out if I tried that one. I have a colleague whose shepherd, a while back, would jump up and nip her ....errhhhh.....chest. Yowsa!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The sit alert is not so good as you are moving the dog out of drive into obedience. 

I did the bringel alert on another dog but it morphed back into the bump but she was not so into the tug and a dainty little thing. For her she just bumped me with her nose.

I started the bringsel on the handler with Beau (before I started backchaining) and after I realized I had to hang onto something to stay vertical, decided to go with the bark. I trained the bark completely indepentantly so I could get it on command. Right now I am cueing it and making him do barkbarkbark. I won't move onto the next part of the sequence (the find) until he is doing it without prompting.


We are not even going to start him doing searches until I have a very solid sequence in place under a bunch of conditions....

Of course this is a new thing for him since he has only done cadaver all his life and he will be 4 in July...but I had several folks I trust say he should have no trouble doing both...just to be careful not to mix things up during training and make sure it is clear to him


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Hey Nancy!

You sound like you are very meticulous in training. Probably due to your experience. I pull the typical novice stuff... move to fast then have to back up to fix things. I'm not as bad as some but clearly worse then the experienced folks. 

I wanted to add that there are several people in CARDA that do both HRD and area. Seems to work out okay.

Best to you!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Being on my 3rd dog, I know that the mistakes caused by rushing cost more time than those by building a solid foundation. Been there. Done that. Most do so you are in good company.

A lot of people do successfully cross train and I have been told it is more difficult to maintain one dog in two disciplines than two dogs, each in one discipline....but having a young dog who would work all day every day if he could...I would rather put in the extra work than shortchange him on time.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Just jumping and and catching up with all you you wonderful people 

Sorry I disappeared, and I hope you don't mind me posting in here still even when I don't do SAR anymore with Titan.. I may not physically do it but I dream about doing it again one of these days and I love reading about your guys' training. 

Sounds like everyone is doing very well and training seems to be going well also  

Has anyone been to a seminar recently that was pretty interesting? or had a particular search or training that was particularly educational (aren't they all?)

Anyways, miss being in this world and wanted to say hi to everyone. 

Do you think with Titan being 5, and probably or 7 by the time we move somewhere again, that is too old to start up SAR again with him if I find the right team? I guess it would largely depend on his health huh?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Areli has done to urban practices on know tracks. The first a 1/3 of a mile and did beautifully! Today, she did a 1.2miles urban known track, and did beyond my expectations.... Really really impressed with her! She also did a 1.1mile track (blind, but with a couple of markers to aid me in knowing she was correct) yesterday in the rain.. She loved it and wanted to run the whole way (which we did not do, although I jogged alot, lol).. She ignored cougar poo (yikes) and some fresh bones along the way... She turned a year last Thursday and for the short period of time she has been doing this, she is truly awesome! 

Akivah has been doing longer problems and then runaways (area search) to help him lock his refind alert solid and keep his drive up. He had a period where he started to goof off on the alert or taking me back to the subject. We have worked through this and he has been quite steady for the past month. He is 13mos old, but it's like the good natured malamute is warring with the serious work ethic of the gsd in him. I hope he matures into it, but if he doesn't he has other talents that I will put to use. 

As to a 5 or 7yr old rejoining a SAR team, well I guess it would depend on how far a long he was in training before the break, how healthy and sound he is at the time, and if the dog still wants to do it.. I know several dogs of aged years (8 and 10) that are still going and learning in SAR. They are structurally sound and have high drive, or good enough training to keep them going and maintaining a high level of skill... Will be interesting to see what happens when that time comes


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Hineni7 said:


> Areli has done to urban practices on know tracks. The first a 1/3 of a mile and did beautifully! Today, she did a 1.2miles urban known track, and did beyond my expectations.... Really really impressed with her! She also did a 1.1mile track (blind, but with a couple of markers to aid me in knowing she was correct) yesterday in the rain.. She loved it and wanted to run the whole way (which we did not do, although I jogged alot, lol).. She ignored cougar poo (yikes) and some fresh bones along the way... She turned a year last Thursday and for the short period of time she has been doing this, she is truly awesome!
> 
> Akivah has been doing longer problems and then runaways (area search) to help him lock his refind alert solid and keep his drive up. He had a period where he started to goof off on the alert or taking me back to the subject. We have worked through this and he has been quite steady for the past month. He is 13mos old, but it's like the good natured malamute is warring with the serious work ethic of the gsd in him. I hope he matures into it, but if he doesn't he has other talents that I will put to use.
> 
> As to a 5 or 7yr old rejoining a SAR team, well I guess it would depend on how far a long he was in training before the break, how healthy and sound he is at the time, and if the dog still wants to do it.. I know several dogs of aged years (8 and 10) that are still going and learning in SAR. They are structurally sound and have high drive, or good enough training to keep them going and maintaining a high level of skill... Will be interesting to see what happens when that time comes


Sounds like you have some pretty wonderful dogs! Did you get them with the intent of SAR or just kinda fell into it?

Akivah sounds a little like Titan when he was in the beginning of training. Titan loved to just get the job done so he could play.. it's his drive... it's what he lives for. He would do the same, find the victim, play on the way back and forget what he was coming back to me for.. and we'd end up with a refind. OR just straight up deciding it was play time in the middle of a search... the number of times he brought me a stick or a rock to play with because it's all he could find, is high, lol. 

After we were able to channel that and he understood the "game" he was awesome. We never certified.. long long story we can PM if you're interested.. but he and I trained for 3 years for area and started very briefly on HRD. His last year training, I was so confident in him. Then life happened. Yay life! and we took what I thought was a momentary pause, and turned out to be indefinitely. 

If we move in the next year, which would be wonderful, I hope I can find another good team to join.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Wow, Areli is killing it! That's awesome. I'm glad to hear both your dogs are doing so well.

Just to clarify, my pup isn't intended to be a dual purpose dog. He's going to test as an area search dog (hopefully), but there is an optional NSDA test for area search with live subject and large source cadaver that we want to do. The idea is that he is primarily a live find dog who won't miss the subject if they are recently deceased. Does that make sense? So we're just imprinting him on cadaver so he knows it's an important odor to pay attention to. 

Training was going really well for a while. He was getting a refind in, doing runaways with little check mark problems, super nice drive and not phased by anything. But, after a while he started ignoring me to keep going after the subject when he realized certain people will give him the toy if he just harasses them enough. He has gotten to the point where we need to take a break from runaways because he just will not come off the subject and he's being a little alligator. So we're going to work on more foundational skills, control, OB, ping-pong between me and another person with no roughhousing allowed, etc. I feel kind of bad about it but I also know that he needs me to fix this now and put the time in to build the skills we need to be a better team. And he needs to mature a bit. Runaways amp him up way beyond his ability to think straight.

My other dog has had some health issues recently and hasn't been training much. So she is getting to laze around and play with little dude, mostly. They get along great.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Wyoung - I got Areli with the express intent of doing SAR, so she is right on track (although even more impressive then imagined or expected). Akivah is definitely unexpected in his ability... I got him to be a friend and whatever else he desired. He watched Areli do some short tracks out the window of the house and had fits! So, I good- naturedly (the whole time telling him " I don't think you want/can do this buddy") have him a scent article (and harnessed him up). He took to the track like a seasoned pro and found his subject with out any problems (it was about 100meter track).. Shocked, I tried hiding and having my subject just let him go and see if he could find me.... Of course he did with great delight.... Soooo, he has been in training pretty much ever since  

Your boy Titan sounds like a cutie! Akivah tended to critter during his wayward period... I hope (think) we have this worked out, but I will continue to slowly build distance as long as his refind alert continues to stay strong and his drive on the refind is good... I think he is a wait and see until he gives months of consistency... 

I do hope life turns right side up for you again soon and you can get back to doing the things that you love  

Kaimeju - Yes, Areli is truly amazing... I am blessed abundantly with both of them, but for SAR, Areli is proving to be a star.. 

Your boy is so young and doing so well! I wish I had started Areli and Akivah this early (neither started until about 8 & 9 most, and then they only did a handful of hides until March. March is when they really started training with the team and daily with me). I could have had Akivah so much more solid in the basics... I am sure it is frustrating to feel like you are going backwards with his training, but really, you are moving forward with a solid foundation. He won't forget how to use his nose and find people, but he will have a maturity and discipline to do the important stuff, which when you go back to runaways and beyond he will fly through it and be a rockstar that he is! I really can't wait to meet him! He sounds like a talented little guy  

I'm sorry your other dog has been having health issues... Hope recovery is quick and permanent.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Akivah sounds wonderful  Again.. reminding me of Titan, lol. Titan was not purchased with any intent other than a companion because I wanted a big dog and a friend since I lived alone in a small village in Germany when I was stationed there. Then I went away and was invited to SAR training with a friend of mine and while the training was.. um.. more for fun, it hooked me before Titan and then Titan started to just love every part of it. Then we moved to the states and found a good team... and viola! Lol. 

Areli sounds wonderful too, didn't mean to take that away from her


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Anyone wanna share pictures of your guys doing training or no a search??


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Lol, thanks! Areli doesn't tend to get hurt feelings (unless I ignore her to long) haha. Akivah is awesome, and so loving and funny. Areli is all seriousness during her work, but play thereafter... I'd love to share pics but usually my subjects/picture takers are hiding, lol! I will try to get some this week... 

Great training today.. Areli killed a 1/3mile track and then, when I lost the scent article (a hat) she found it while I was doubling back looking for it... Akivah did some great runaways with solid refind alerts and energetic refunds, so he will probably move forward again to longer problems with the team. Both pups have begun basics on HRD... Areli is her typical serious 'I must excel at my job (which I love)' serious, but I think Akivah really really likes HRD better than area search (live).... Too early to be sure yet, but he is smitten with it (yuck)...


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Duncan really loves the HRD too. It took me a couple of tries to convince him it was not worth licking (so gross). when he sees the boxes come out he drags me towards them. We are just doing box work in the house and yard because I want his alert to be super solid before we do areas. His sister (older, past litter) moved to areas too soon and she has trouble with her alert now. I think he might actually like it better than live because it's clear what he is supposed to do.

I am not happy with the way the refind was introduced. It seems unfair to get the dog hyped up about finding the subject and then expect them to obey a recall away from the subject when they have not been rewarded for that behavior before. I am considering back chaining it but I don't want to screw him up by changing stuff around. At any rate my recall is completely poisoned now. Luckily emergency whistle is not.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Pic from training: http://i.imgur.com/soJMv1X.png


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I like that you guys are taking your time with them  While Titan did great with most searches, looking back, I wonder if some of the problems we were having were do to moving too fast.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Omgosh! Too cute!! I love his smile! His whole body is fully of that puppy joy, so awesome! 

Understand about the ick factor (licking, rolling on/in it) of HRD.. But if it excites the dog (and ultimately brings peace to a family) be it... Refind alerts do seem unfair in the teaching, lol! I think the concept is to ride the wave of excitement of a find, to an obedient come which turns into whatever their natural response (jumping, barking, tugging, etc) is back flowed into an excited 'show me' to their reward of the find and subjects goodies /toys... Kind of a roller coaster of emotions.. Your boy is so so young, I wouldn't worry about his alerts being blown.. So much emotion can blow a little man's mind on what comes first or what do I do? But as he gains more maturity, the training you did earlier, probably with a little back chaining for reinforcement, and I think you will be surprised at what he remembers and is capable of.  

Still HRD has a more simplified and easy to follow structure. Easier for puppy emotions to be rewarded for the right thing. Like you said, very straightforward answers. Probably why Akivah likes it so much too. 

Titan I bet, especially having had time to digest his training and think on it, probably would surprise you with what he remembers and how solid he is.. You might have a family member hide and play with him, see if some of the problems before are ironed out. I think a break at appropriate times can be the best thing for us and the dog sometimes...


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Hineni. You have such a lovely attitude and prudent thoughts on training. Areli and Akivah are lucky to have you. I agree the important thing is that we imprinted "searching is fun!" and he will probably pick it up easily later. 

In retrospect I think the refinds I have on video are kind of funny. I may as well be trying to recall him off a squirrel! He does a lot better when I have subjects that are very strict about avoiding eye contact or any kind of reinforcement whatsoever. We will use only those subjects for a while when we add the air scent training back in. It's funny, once he finally does recall he is very good about giving his alert, I just have to get his attention!

For Titan, I bet he will remember a lot. My other dog is just a pet and I started doing tracking/nosework with her. Even if I let it go for a while she never forgets how fun and exciting it is. I think they're really made for this kind of job mentally and it just fulfills them like nothing else (well, maybe Duncan would rather do IPO lol).


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you  that was very kind of you to say. I am blessed to have these two pups, they teach me everyday.. 

I can imagine the frustration of an trying to get an excited and eager pup to listen to his recall! Does he like squeaky toys? Maybe try squeaking one (when you go back to area/live search problems) once he has found the subject and call at the same time... Might be enough to draw his attention away from his quarry (especially if eye contact is made, lol). I would love to see him work... He sounds so eager and passionate. How old is he now?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Hineni7 said:


> Omgosh! Too cute!! I love his smile! His whole body is fully of that puppy joy, so awesome!
> 
> Understand about the ick factor (licking, rolling on/in it) of HRD.. But if it excites the dog (and ultimately brings peace to a family) be it... Refind alerts do seem unfair in the teaching, lol! I think the concept is to ride the wave of excitement of a find, to an obedient come which turns into whatever their natural response (jumping, barking, tugging, etc) is back flowed into an excited 'show me' to their reward of the find and subjects goodies /toys... Kind of a roller coaster of emotions.. Your boy is so so young, I wouldn't worry about his alerts being blown.. So much emotion can blow a little man's mind on what comes first or what do I do? But as he gains more maturity, the training you did earlier, probably with a little back chaining for reinforcement, and I think you will be surprised at what he remembers and is capable of.
> 
> ...


Funny enough.. we did take about an 8 month break due to another deployment and when I came back and we started back up, he was spot on and like he never stopped, I almost wondered ifhe was actually better than before I left! Lol! There is something to taking a break. We do lots of find it games. We did an easter egg hunt actually and I put treats int he eggs and hid them for him to find. lol. When I have family come over I try to make them hide... and I make my husband hide too, haha. I am obsessed. 

Love hearing about your guys' training and I loooove the puppy pic!!! so stinkin cute!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Exhausting water weekend. Have some backing up to some foundation stuff to clean up a problem, but figuring out how to approach the problem is why I went. I can tell you exactly where the source is underwater by reading his body language but his trained final response on the boat is "not", though it is perfect on land. .......So.....back to some basics.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> Exhausting water weekend. Have some backing up to some foundation stuff to clean up a problem, but figuring out how to approach the problem is why I went. I can tell you exactly where the source is underwater by reading his body language but his trained final response on the boat is "not", though it is perfect on land. .......So.....back to some basics.


Hi Nancy! I have absolutely no experience with water training. Could you explain a little about water training and how scent reacts in water? I was just thinking about this the other day and had planned to research a bit.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It may take me some time to come up with a good response on that one. 

Some of the challenges are that oils/fluids come up along with the odor and so not only do you have odor exiting the water directly, but you have it dispersing on the surface of the water. The other thing is that the boat driver becomes the dogs 'feet' unless you have the dog swim and circle and you have to read the dog properly to get them to source. We don't want our dogs in the water, with alligators in half the state. When you set out training aids it is hard to know where it is because getting a visual point of reference on the water is very hard (which is why eye-witness accounts of where a swimmer went down are often horribly inaccurate). And then there are rivers, where you may not be able to navigate like you would like.

Even though I have had water finds with Grim and Beau, water is the one that gives the most headaches. Limited training opportunities, equipment issues...Then there is the whole figuring out where the body is based on where the dog responded. Surface winds, underwater currents, etc. We use multiple dogs and GPS marks and a computer to predict location.

The dogs don't seem to have any trouble with depth. Beau was strong on a body about 18 hours post drowning in 75 feet of water that was 40F (so bascially a refrigerator)-our team has had several finds in around 80 feet. 

I have been doing water long enough to know there is a whole lot more to know than I know  and that there are a whole lot of mediocre dogs/handlers out on boats. I also think because few really do water well, that you get a lot more conflicting advice than you do on land. Most of what we do is basic detection work but water is a different beast so the LE folks who certify us may not have the years of BOAT experience to be able to give solid advice and troubleshoot. I have gone round and round with arguments for and against trained final response vs only reading the dog on the boat, and have fought with getting that response on this dog since we started.....but I am more convinced than ever that it is *that* important.

Step 1 for water is to have a very solid land cadaver dog, particularly solid in burieds and access to fresh training aids. Then very solid on shoreline. Then find someone GOOD to train with.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

We did try making the subject more boring and having me carry the squeaky toy, try to entice him away with it. Only works 50% of the time and the other 50% is not acceptable behavior. He knows the game now and if you hold him while the subject walks away he starts shrieking and fighting you. 

The rest of the time he's very easy to handle. He's not hyperactive in public or anything. Settles just fine when asked. I have no issues with him getting out of control during play. It's something about chasing that really sets him off. I'm almost wondering if he shouldn't be watching the subject leave anymore?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't think going back to foundation on recall-refind training is bad. Changing the indication around confuses the dog but solidifying it is a good thing then continuing to reinforce it during training. I would ask your team mentor about introducing problems without seeing the subject leave. Also making him be calm and focused before he is released.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I agree, if he knows the game well, then having the subject walk away unbeknownst to him would probably keep the over the top cascade of emotions that wreck his focus on a recall /refind... Ad nauseum for the practice of refind alert... 

I do have a question though, jocoyn you probably can answer for me ... So Akivah likes to hit my legs for his alert... Unfortunately, he also likes to jump other times when excited, so I am blocking his jump instinctively (paw in gut is not fun)... Which of course then makes him hesitant later when doing an alert! It is natural for him to do the leg hit, so changing it (and I tried to add a bark to see if I could transition over to that as he is vocal; he barks 85% of the time) would be hard... How do I control the jumping at other times? Is it a matter of just repetition (and maturity on his part as he is 13mos) and reward at appropriate times and light discouragement for inappropriate times?? He is so sensitive it is frustrating, lol..


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> It may take me some time to come up with a good response on that one.
> 
> Some of the challenges are that oils/fluids come up along with the odor and so not only do you have odor exiting the water directly, but you have it dispersing on the surface of the water. The other thing is that the boat driver becomes the dogs 'feet' unless you have the dog swim and circle and you have to read the dog properly to get them to source. We don't want our dogs in the water, with alligators in half the state. When you set out training aids it is hard to know where it is because getting a visual point of reference on the water is very hard (which is why eye-witness accounts of where a swimmer went down are often horribly inaccurate). And then there are rivers, where you may not be able to navigate like you would like.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing! That was very informative for me. It blows my mind the things these dogs can do. Do you every have problems with the dogs wanting to jump in and track the scent?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It's pretty natural for the dog to jump in and circle the scent biting at the water...... Most dogs after they've been hauled back into the boat a couple times decided to easier to stay on and will still bite or lick the water


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Hineni7 said:


> I agree, if he knows the game well, then having the subject walk away unbeknownst to him would probably keep the over the top cascade of emotions that wreck his focus on a recall /refind... Ad nauseum for the practice of refind alert...
> 
> I do have a question though, jocoyn you probably can answer for me ... So Akivah likes to hit my legs for his alert... Unfortunately, he also likes to jump other times when excited, so I am blocking his jump instinctively (paw in gut is not fun)... Which of course then makes him hesitant later when doing an alert! It is natural for him to do the leg hit, so changing it (and I tried to add a bark to see if I could transition over to that as he is vocal; he barks 85% of the time) would be hard... How do I control the jumping at other times? Is it a matter of just repetition (and maturity on his part as he is 13mos) and reward at appropriate times and light discouragement for inappropriate times?? He is so sensitive it is frustrating, lol..


With my pup I did normal obedience to not let him jump on others, that generalized to not jumping on me. Mostly through positive reinforcement of the good behavior and negative punishment (taking away something good). Jumping on me was originally taught by command. Then with training in SAR he just sort of gets it that the jump is part of his "work" and not something to do otherwise. There are some on my team who do not discourage jumping and if you want to be friends with them then their dog jumping on you has to be okay. IMHO works for some breeds but not for a Dutch Shepherd or a GSD I would think.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Just saw the jumping question and agree with Karin's response...my own dog jumps on me when he gets the toy for his HR reward (to play tug..he runs back to me with the tug, jumps on me and the fight begins) but is not allowed to jump any other time.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks karen and jocoyon! Akivah has never been allowed to jump on people before (and he only tends to jump on me when excited, or of course as his alert) and it of course started after his natural response began to be locked down for his refind alert.... Personally, I think it rude and dangerous any other time especially because he is 80+lbs already... His refind alert he hits just my legs and even at full board speed he doesn't hit too hard... HOWEVER, when he jumps being naughty he jumps high and hits hard.... I believe you are correct that he will be able to discern (at some point) the difference and will continue with his obedience training... So many things that can go wrong during training, lol...


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Submitted all my sign off sheets Monday, all were accepted Tuesday evening, and I got a call out this morning... whhhhaaaa... I can't go. So this is for observation hours. I have finished all the signoffs... seems like thousands of them... and now I have to do observation hours of K9 teams on actual searches. 10 hours of observation over at least 2 searches. Most likely I will be a flanker. So no dog yet but my sponsors will be setting up some mock tests as we go forward. They are of the mind that I should shoot to test in the fall when conditions are more favorable. Here there are 3 separate tests I will do. A 20 acre C2 test, with a large source cadaver and one live subject to work in an hour. A 40 acre live subject test for 2 hours and a 100-120 acre mission ready test 1 to 3 live subjects in 4 hours. 

Patience is not my strength but I'm learning!


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

DutchKarin said:


> Submitted all my sign off sheets Monday, all were accepted Tuesday evening, and I got a call out this morning... whhhhaaaa... I can't go. So this is for observation hours. I have finished all the signoffs... seems like thousands of them... and now I have to do observation hours of K9 teams on actual searches. 10 hours of observation over at least 2 searches. Most likely I will be a flanker. So no dog yet but my sponsors will be setting up some mock tests as we go forward. They are of the mind that I should shoot to test in the fall when conditions are more favorable. Here there are 3 separate tests I will do. A 20 acre C2 test, with a large source cadaver and one live subject to work in an hour. A 40 acre live subject test for 2 hours and a 100-120 acre mission ready test 1 to 3 live subjects in 4 hours.
> 
> Patience is not my strength but I'm learning!


 What standards are you testing to (what organization)?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

California Rescue Dog Association, CARDA. And once mission ready for CARDA, my county will accept this too. Well, not my county, but I'm joining a neighboring county SAR team. My own county is not as K9 friendly. 

I have been at this for just over a year at the apprentice level. They say, two years to train up you and your first dog. Ain't that the truth. I love it though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

CARDA is pretty solid, from what I understand. Do they also require a night test for the live find?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

CARDA seems pretty good. And of course it does depend too on your sponsors. As I suppose in any organization there is the good and the bad. I cannot say this has been a cakewalk. Which is good IMHO. I like being pushed. Nancy, I needed night signoffs with live finds but no formal test. My training group also does night training once a month. I LOVE night searches. It is really interesting when you can't see anything but a little light bobbing up and down. Pushes you to sense things in a different way. Tygo seems to like working at night too.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I was with CARDA in the early 90's,well before the standards (sponsors, sign offs before working a dog etc) they have now, and the group I was with in SoCal was very stringent in protocol and training. Seems like they have really fine tuned what they are looking for and how to get the best out of their teams... Congratulations on the sign offs!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is a blessing to have such an organized approach! Sign offs are good. Most certifications are a basic skills test at any level and the goal is to show you have the broad range of training to do the job. It sounds like you are being very well prepared! Night is THE best time to search for a live person.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Our state has sign offs required for SAR, my understanding is that they will have some specific to K-9 in a few years. I liked getting them all done in a few weeks, but wish there were more navigation workshops near me. I have no trouble keeping from getting lost, but things like describing my position to a helicopter are still hard. 

Most people here do NSDA because those are the tests available. I have not met many NASAR folks and only a few NAPWDA. Finding qualified evaluators is hard. workshops and tests fill up quickly.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Emma is almost ready to begin SAR training. We're almost finished with our prerequisite of attending trainings without her while we work on puppy run-aways on our own time. Cannot wait!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Yeah, WA has an Academy once a year on the east side (not sure about the west side) where you are able to knock all the prerequisites off and ask questions... The nav is pitiful compared to what makes you confident in your competency... However, our group does nav work every other training or so, so that helps keep things fresh and moving forward... 

We should be doing more night trainings as it warms up to the hot side (ugh), now.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Emma looks cute in her molle vest! How old is she? Are you doing area search with her, HRD, or trail (or do you know yet, lol)?


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

I guess I should consider myself lucky in that we have quite a few SAR groups around this area (VA, MD, DC) with plenty of training opportunities and plenty of people willing and able to help setup map and compass training and SARTECH II tests. 

My training for the past year or so has been completely all about USAR but since we passed our cert, we will now go back and get the wilderness certification all done. Goes much quicker when you only have to worry about your dogs cert and not your own.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Emma looks cute in her molle vest! How old is she? Are you doing area search with her, HRD, or trail (or do you know yet, lol)?


Thanks! She is 11 months. She'll be doing HRD and Trailing. When we first went to see if she'd be a good fit she absolutely loved it all. Can't wait to formerly start.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

My two sponsors are very fit men with 10 and 15 years experience. When they approached me to say they would take me on as an apprentice (first I felt honored because they are very well respected both within CARDA and with outside agencies), they told me quite seriously that I had to be in shape, my dog had to be in shape and I must know navigation well. If not, they would dump me. hahaha.... because we are all wilderness area dogs, well for the most part, we do navigation training every time we meet. Good thing I love it; I'm a total map nerd.

Best of luck with that little on Graychamp. Beautiful pup.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think you have to be very fit (determined, hardworking, and enjoy the outdoors alot) to do any SAR work, especially with dogs, lol... I was in good shape before, but Areli (trailing dog) has really really gotten me in good shape. Akivah is area (both are starting HRD) and so I can catch my breath a bit more at times... Navigation is imperative (and fun!) for any discipline and it's awesome that your sponsors were so upfront, and yet supportive  

11mos...just a smidgen younger than Areli. She took to it like it is her life blood, lol... Akivah gets excited and loves to play/work. Areli lives and breathes the scent, she is intense and focused, driven and loving every minute of it. So much fun to watch them work.. I am constantly n awe of their abilities and discernment... I am blessed - and I can see you are too


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Most definitely have to be in shape! Ha! Now the nagivation is essential too, but I cannot claim I excelled at that. I was getting better before I left the team, but if/when I start up again, I will have to be more proactive in that area. Give me a map, and I'm good. No map.. no good, lol. 

Graychamp, Emma is so adorable! She looks ready to go!! Can't wait to read about your progress!


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Etta and I made the online addition of the paper


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Wow Dino!!! That is awesome!!! What a great shot too! super cool


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Awesome. Great Pix.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

DinoBlue said:


> Etta and I made the online addition of the paper


Very cool. Congrats. There is some rule around here that if you make the paper or TV you have to buy everyone on the team a beer. Something like that. ;-)


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

She is so lean!! Just like my girl (almost greyhound lean lol).. Awesome pic!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

This week has been a great week. Energized by a search where the find was made on our shift (HRD) and, while the actual find was outside of our area, Beau was allowed to "search" and make the "find" for training purposes. It is training you just can't replicate in a scenario, very hard to come by, and I am glad that after about 2 hours of searching he was perfect. The real thing offers a very different picture to the dog than training aids and it was reassuring to see the whole thing "work" the way it is supposed to. 

Training was great today as well though the sudden warm temps and lack of shade in much of the area was a bit rough. A teammate located an area where she set out hides for us about 4 days ago, and we have had several inches of rain during the intervening time. Most hides were old dry bone secured properly (most varmints don't fool with dry bone) and a 16" deep buried small tissue hide and two hanging. She was very creative with setting them. The dogs could only get their nose on one of the 6 hides in the "bone field", the buried was 16" deep and a very small source, and the water problem a small rib bone about 18" deep in the water on the shoreline under an overhanging stump. For one problem the dogs had to walk on a wall, on another the source was deep in a dark narrow "tunnel" and Beau went all the way in turned around and gave his trained response inside the tunnel with no hesitation. A high hide was in a swampy area against a cliff and it had a large scent pool and he really had to work to pinpoint. Of course everything was set as blind problems. Really nice set up to have stuff out and in places where you have to bushwack to work them. Very realistic.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

That is awesome! So happy for you and Beau  It is always nice to have your dog prove out their training (and skills) when needed, and of course on difficult trainings. Very satisfying and makes you a proud mama. 

We had a SAR conference this past weekend, unfortunately I could only attend a partial day Saturday. However it was helicopter loading and for my girl who is a yr old and started in March of this year, it was her first hot load. She did awesome! Didn't phase her one bit, nor the boat (I think she really liked it, loved sniffing the water...and drinking by the propeller, yikes!) and atv with other dogs... All she did with a typical unflappable Shepherd smile... She has been doing some urban tracks and rocking those out too... Very proud of her... 

Have to share a stupid human trick of what NOT to do... I had a track laid out for me at training a week ago and it aged for an hour.. When I was ready to run it I grabbed the scent article and harnessed her, scented her, cast her and set her off.. I had noticed that when I scented her she reacted a bit differently then normal (normally she sniffs, then sniffs a second time like she is imprinting it in her mind. This time she sniffed and kicked her lips...) anyhow, she took me to the start of the track which was flagged.. Now, unbeknownst to me as this was a blind track, but flagged on turns for my benefit and a 1/3 of a mile, Areli wanted to go the correct direction, however, another team was working an air scenting problem directly the way she wanted to go, I stopped her... 3x because I thought she wanted to go to the loose dog... Ugh... X first stupid handler mistake... Anyhow, Areli another 2 or 3x wanted to take me back to the trail and the direction I stopped her from of which I stopped her (argh!).. Finally, my dog in her infinite wisdom figured she had an insane owner/handler and that the day wouldn't end unless she air scented but looked like she was trailing occasionally (so as to keep her idiot handler thinking she was working), and find her subject that way... When we found our subject, she had been watching us work on the GPS (Areli had the collar on) and said we were way off the track... We get back to the cars and she says, "where did you get the scent article from? The back of the truck or the front?" "the back" I say.... Well, I had created my own scent article as I was going to be the subject for her dog on runaways... I scented my dog on my own scent article!!! 

Good Lord! I think Areli has a better chance at certifying without me then with me! Hahaha! Wrong scent article, pulled off the track, and then has to air scent and figure out who she is supposed to find... Irony... She was wearing a bandana that says, "I'm smart then most humans" I'm inking in, "including my owner!" LOL


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Scenting the dog on your own scent article. That is a new one! HAHA we need to rotate around a dumb handler tricks aware. If have made PLENTY (we all do!) but that one wins the prize.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Well I will contribute.. no formal training for me this weekend due to a memorial service. So I went out to do a 40 acre gridding problem. (I'm a bit worried about meeting the time requirements for up and coming testing). While I think I did okay on it all, that was despite, dropping the GPS and going back for it and dropping the compass and going back for it, ugh.... I need to have everything connected to me or I will drop it. Thank god my dog can help find things. 

Nancy cool story on the real deal. On that note, I am joining a county team right now and the sheriff deputy in charge was talking about flagging the "crime scene" if a body is found and defending it from the K9 teams who will all rush in from their respective search areas for a "training opportunity". Everyone laughed, I'm the only k9 handler in this cohort... I wasn't laughing... "that would be a great opportunity." 

SAR people. ;-)


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

A Dumb handler tricks would be a great thread! I think I'm the Queen at the moment ... I also lost a borrowed radio (thank God we found it) that was camouflage!! Bad day... Haha, lessons learned though  

Yes, SAR people are different... Most run from the work, time, sweat, commitment, ick and heartache that can be a part of the job... We run to it.. And pay lots of money for it!?! But it is a rewarding 'job' and desperately needed...


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Thought you might like this story.
So I go out to do a mock 40-Acre test yesterday, which is supposed to be one subject and I have two hours to cover the area.. My two sponsors were the evaluators. We were in difficult terrain, not hard, per se but triangular, ending in the mud flats of a reservoir, Draws going east west, high ridge in the center east west, and a light wind coming out of the east/south east (which died after an hour). So the tendency is to want to grid north south from the west to the east but that would be so much up and down. So I muttled best I could. Did north first and worked south, essentially dividing the thing in half and then at times I would follow my dog when he got in scent and change the plan depending on where he took me, I'm thinking I'm making okay time, then it starts to heat up, working the southern part then and I'm humping through the brush and draws and slopes as the time ticks away. I'm thinking I'm covering the area okay but Tygo is getting hotter and hotter, (He drank two quarts in two hours) I'm stumped, with 10 minutes to go I'm very much trying to support Tygo (because I know it is my rather chaotic navigation and not him). TIMES UP... didn't find subject. VERY DISAPPOINTED IN MYSELF. So then we sit down to debrief. When I really look at the area and my track on the GPS I think I covered the area okay. I rated it high POD (probability of detection) if the subject was responsive and wants to be found. Medium to low (since I did not find the subject) if subject was unresponsive and due to the heat in the second hour. So "where is she... in this wide area that was probably 100 meters?" They don't initially answer and I think they are going to take me there to let Tygo make the find, but they changed the subject and we talk about other search strategies. I ask again, is she in this wide path? They smile.... well there was NO SUBJECT!!!!! I called them a bad name in a loving way. They are laughing. BUT it does make sense. They wanted to see me really search the whole area rather than find someone and then walk around to finish the area all relaxed. They wanted to see me work under pressure! They got that! They liked that I supported Tygo to the end and searched to the end. We did a small problem at the end and Tygo got the subject at 150 yards! ahahah

I am the weak link when it comes to navigating inconsistent difficult terrain. I don't get lost but covering the area efficiently is my issue. The one big thing I missed is that it made all the sense in the world to work the southern area first as the slopes are mostly south facing given the terrain. The north 1/2 was mostly north facing. The heat destroyed POD on southern slopes by 11 AM. DUH! God I'll never forget that. 

Tygo did not go after the deer although really wanted to and I called him off a chipmunk that he actually had in his mouth and probably mortally wounded it as it limped away. So high scores on that note.

My sponsors are of the ilk that you test when you are ready to be a good searcher and not before. I think I could be ready in August but then the heat makes the testing so iffy. They want me to wait until fall and I get it but still impatient.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Congratulations! Blind scenarios are always the hardest and of course more like real life when you have the pressure of it being a 'test'.. Knowing how to select the best plan of attack for each search is an art in and of its self, imho. So many variables that change constantly.. Sounds like you handled yourself and Tygo well .. 

The irony I think is in that, while we all want to certify as fast as possible (being sure that we and dog are ready), the reality is that is when the trail pressure (fear) begins... Your choices really REALLY matter then, and it is possible it is life and death choices... Pressure we train for, but can't actually know until put in that situation... And not just as a navigator or back up, but the actual handler. 

Personally, I trust my girl way more than I trust myself in somethings.... She is proving consistently that she knows what she is doing has the drive to do it until the job is done, and loves it... But it will fall on my shoulders when the rubber meets the road. Thankfully, I have a wonderful team that has experience and wants the best for each team member... I'm sure you have the same


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

DutchKarin great story! A little late to that party, but that's great news for the search, I know it must have been frustrating until you learned what they were doing, lol. I am a terrible navigator.. my weakest link is me.. 

So chatted with an old SAR friend of mine about why I left the team. She said Titan was a rockstar and was really excelling. And she is absolutely right. In the end, after the nipping incident and dealing with some rough times back home, distance was the ultimate reason for me leaving.. That and not feeling connected to the team at times.. She hooked me up with one of her friends on her new team that either is training in my city, or knows people that are training there.. that gave me a little taste again for getting back into things. Still unsure, (mostly confidence in Titan's recall, even though we have been solid with that for so long now since the incident)... but we'll see. It'll have to be after deployment so I have time to think about it. 

Hope everything is going well with you guys!!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

We have been training hard for our level 3 trailing test, (which we passed with flying colors Go Areli!) and cleaning up (mostly me) communication on the trail.. 

Now that Areli is certified I'm maintaining what we have and aging tracks longer (longest has been22.5hrs double blind; and a 32hr loose retrace of previous unrun trail, known) and working with Akivah again.. The time off has really matured him and thrown his drive into overdrive! He is tearing up the tracks/trails and I think he might be ready to test as early as spring.. 

I'm taking classes and honing my nav skills, learning more about, well, everything and enjoying the forward progress our team is making in all areas... 

What is everyone else up to?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Been getting my second dog ready to certify trailing.. He is talented but still a bit immature.. The malamute part of his gsd/malamute breeding has delayed his progress at times, lol.. But he has been doing some super work lately.. Otherwise, been pretty much the same; training both dogs (and myself) ... How is everyone else doing?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Nobody has posted here for a long time, sooo.. We have had 2 successful deployments, one urban one wilderness and while we didn't make the find, we had correct DOT and my girl (and boy) worked very well... Recert is coming up for my girl and my boy is set to test to take his level 3 test this month... Then we will test with IPWDA in September.. 

We train four to six days a week trailing and toss some HR in there as well.. Once recert/cert are out of the way for trailing I will focus harder on the HRD and see about certs there... Not that I am focused on HR as a sole discipline (it is a great discipline and brings so much closure to family members) as trailing takes alot of time and energy to do, but it is important the dogs be savvy about HR should there subject go from live to deceased at trails end... Still, I love watching the dogs work, especially seasoned HRD handlers with their dogs.. Truly amazing.. 

What is everyone else up to?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Have had a couple of deployments as well. The latest is still on-going. I was there Saturday and Sunday. So hard when a 71 year old vanishes. Hundreds of miles searched, hundred of searchers, helicopters, etc. And nothing after 5 days. The area is a big mountain lake that is accessed by hundreds of people and trails all around that eventually go into wilderness areas. The backstory is about a woman with compromised and seemingly declining cognitive functioning. More to it as well but probably should not be public about it. Although since it is public I can say that in June this woman walked away from a campsite and was out overnight. Found the next day and said she was determined to get back so hiked all night long.

I'm wondering about trail dog use early on in this search. I don't know. Woman went missing Thursday. There was only one trailing dog on Saturday and Sunday. Don't know if they were their earlier. 

Things I learned on this search.... stick a spare pair of underwear and a toothbrush in the car. I stayed overnight, the county put us up in a hotel. That was unplanned. Would have been nice to have a clean pair of underwear. hahahah. 

Training weekly. I was just made co-leader for the county k9 team... sort of title more than anything. I tease my co-leader that I got the title so I could just boss him around. ;-)

I'm working on getting a consistent alert (jump) when I am relatively close in. Tygo has a tendency to do the shepherd stare when it seems obvious to him... that is the only thing I can think that he is thinking. "Karin, pretty obvious here... don't think you need my jump alert. You are not an idiot... or are you?" Thing. 

I was pleased how hard he worked on 3 large assignments at that search including a night assignment. Oh... I also learned that while I love working at night, it is one thing to do that on a trail and a completely other thing to do that over an area with no trails.

Thank god no testing for a year and 1/2. Oh... I will do Avalanche certification this year... and I was invited to join an avalanche response team. Its made up of a bunch of ski area dogs and the intent of this team is to be able to respond to an avalanche in the backcountry in 20 minutes. Not sure how I will fit into that. If you are a handler at a ski area, it is pretty easy to zip in with a helo and get you out there... but if you are a working Joe... I don't know. 

Anyhow... just a morning blab. 
Best to all of you SAR junkies.. be safe.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Nobody has posted here for a long time, sooo.. We have had 2 successful deployments, one urban one wilderness and while we didn't make the find, we had correct *DOT* and my girl (and boy) worked very well... Recert is coming up for my girl and my boy is set to test to take his level 3 test this month... Then we will test with IPWDA in September..
> 
> We train four to six days a week trailing and toss some HR in there as well.. Once recert/cert are out of the way for trailing I will focus harder on the HRD and see about certs there... Not that I am focused on *HR* as a sole discipline (it is a great discipline and brings so much closure to family members) as trailing takes alot of time and energy to do, but it is important the dogs be savvy about HR should there subject go from live to deceased at trails end... Still, I love watching the dogs work, especially seasoned *HRD * handlers with their dogs.. Truly amazing..
> 
> What is everyone else up to?


Can you help a dummy out? :smile2: I'm guessing hr/hrd is human remains/detection? DOT, department of transportation? Lol

Question about long searches, is it necessary to take breaks and reinforce training at intervals in this type of work? Watching a program about the 9/11 search dogs, they found the dogs would lose focus as time between finds became extended. Some training session and reward would re-energize them or something along those lines?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

HRD=Human Remains Detection

I think most of us know the time limits on our dogs based on watching them work and reading them. I know based on head carriage and body language when my dog is actively working and when he has transitioned to "going for a walk". Frequent forced breaks seem to be enough to keep him energized but we are not searching day in and day out so honestly the best answer would be from the MWD bomb detection dog handler who does just that. [David?]

Usually I do something when I get home from a search, no matter how tired. Normally call my husband and ask him to set out a human bone for me as I am driving home (since everything else grosses him out). Having hides to freshen up with at a search are great and a lot of us used to take them, but this event pretty much left most of us making sure we had nothing in our vehicles (for this purpose) during a search deployment. 

Dog-handler pleads guilty


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Wow, that is beyond disturbing. Tampering with evidence just to inflate your own ego, she should have gotten more than a couple years. Anyone involved with law enforcement should be held to a higher standard and punishments for willful wrong doing should reflect this.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

As far as training and callouts

Our team policy prevents us from discussing any callout, even in general terms, on social media.

It has, however been a normal summer with 2-3 calls a month. 

We had a great team training (rented a cabin on a remote piece of land in the mountains of western SC) last weekend. For Beau, my teammates set up basically a complete NAPWDA mock cadaver test and the funniest one was where someone unknowingly peed about 3 feet from a buried source. Fortunately, he ignored the pee and alerted on the hide. 

The most challenging problem for us (and I was really angsting over it until we pulled the hide up) was a water hide in the far side channel in a mountain stream. He got odor in the area but was really having trouble pinpointing and I had to detail him to it after they greatly narrowed down the problem for me. It was about a foot deep in running water and was about a thimblefull (I kid you not) of bone gristle in a cage. Small hides are great but not that small for a large area search (which was about a half mile of stream). The overnight hide I gave them to put out (complete with cage) gagged them all and it was great to watch him work it the next day as we don't get as many overnight hides as we would like when he hit odor he did not even mess with working out the scent pool - just ran straight to it. Everything I worked over the weekend was unknown to me. We also worked a lot of good stream hides at my request. They thought they would trick him by climbing into a culvert with one. He loves culverts so that was not an issue at all.

Tilly was out of commission on this one. I got permission to spay her so she was home recovering. I admire those who juggle intact dogs but am relieved to not have her out of commission for a month every 5 months (yes, she was on a 5 month cycle). She will be much more valuable as a working dog this way.

Before that we have been busy doing small stuff with her and with me recovering with my stupid ankle. I am back up to 6 miles a day but I can't say it is painless. We went back to some foundation tracking for scent discrimination with her and working on ignoring game scents. I hope to pass our first two tests with her (20 acre scent discrimination and 60-80 acre day test, non discriminating) this fall. Then the night test this winter.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@Nancy, is this the same ankle you have metal holding it together? I recall you had a major "rebuild" on one of them. Hopefully it'll heal up soon.

Some very cool accomplishment by you, Karin and Hineni, huge respect for the work you guys do. 

I'm working on much simpler stuff like having my girls carry a bucket. Ive had two short sessions and Tuke will pick it up on que, but will immediately drop it, Zoey will pick it up, but wants to run around and thrash it, lol we'll get there.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Nigel said:


> @Nancy, is this the same ankle you have metal holding it together? I recall you had a major "rebuild" on one of them. Hopefully it'll heal up soon.


Yes actually had the accident in 2005 (fracture with metal plate-never play with a dog on a tracking line-lesson learned) but a fall this spring (slide out on gravel) did some more damage and the PT says basically the ligaments in my foot are toast. She is both stretching out scar tissue and teaching me how to use other leg muscles for the balance that normally the foot muscles create. On normal ground it is find but off trail and getting in and out of boats even with good ankle support puts a lot of stress there. I gather the issues will never be fixed but can be made workable.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thanks Nigel.. And DOT is 'direction of travel' used for trailing dogs as often police want to narrow the search down and deploy other resources in the area most likely the subject is at. So a trailing dog might still be following the trail when the subjects found by other searchers because the direction of travel was made and resources where used more practically.. 

Karin, sounds like you have been busy and doing a great job!! 

Nancy, sorry to hear the ankle is still bugging you so much.. Have had many surgeries in life and know the pain of demolished joints and scar tissue.. Hang in there! Also understand the spaying of your girl.. Mine was cycling every 3mos! Crazy! So she was spayed before 2 just for her own sanity as well as workability...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks Hineni! That makes sense now.

Nancy, Just realised from your earlier post that the thimble of gristle was under moving water, I'm amazed they can find something that small under those conditions.

My girls found a moose carcass during a camping trip earlier this year, that's about as good as it gets for us. Looks like wolves had torn it up and spread it around.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Nigel said: Question about long searches, is it necessary to take breaks and reinforce training at intervals in this type of work? Watching a program about the 9/11 search dogs, they found the dogs would lose focus as time between finds became extended. Some training session and reward would re-energize them or something along those lines?

Those were usually very long hours under extremely difficult and stressful conditions, and where a live find search dog was meeting death at every turn... Same for the humans... That can take its toll on everyone and so breaks and mock live finds help bring up everyone's mood... If it is a long trail, we break because of fatigue for the dog.. Hard for them to sniff effectively if heavily panting or dry mouth.. But forced breaks like Nancy said is the norm, as the dog is likely to try and push through the exhaustion because they love what they do so much....


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