# Bred to crippled in future for profit?



## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

Why are show people dead set on ruining this breed for $? conformation now is future health problems.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am not 100% sure I understand what you are trying to say. I really don't think that any one is actually trying to ruin the breed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not getting what you are asking either. There are some very good showline breeders out there with nice conformation so maybe you are looking at the extremes?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sure this is about the BBC documentary


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Might as well just come right out and say all purebreds are bad, too. Whoops!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IMO, the problem isn't the "show" people but the AKC and the politics within. True story...a guy takes a beautiful WGSL to a show of ASL. The dog is the best in the ring. The ASL's won't allow the judge to touch them. Are skittish and look terrible. The ASL gets pinned.

Why? Because the WGSL doesn't look like the rest. The AKC has people how know nothing about breeds judging them. The AKC allows professional handlers so it's WHO you are not what the dog is. The AKC allows multiple entries under one person so the judges will pin an entry from that person because they are spending the most money.

Change the politics, educate the judges to pin the best of the standard and the breeding will follow.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

In truth…shows don’t create profit for a breeder. Breeders that don’t go to shows, don’t train for anything, are the ones making more profit. Doesn’t matter that their dogs go for less…they don’t have a lot of other expenses and so there is more profit there.

To get a championship in AKC takes a lot of money. Unless you do have a truly amazing specimen (per AKC conformation standards), it’s become very hard to get a championship. Lots of shows, lots of traveling, it’s really not that easy. If your dog is that good, you’ll see people pull their dogs from shows, deny you major points, ect.

There are also a lot more people “doing it for profit” that are much more detrimental to the breed than those people that are actively showing dogs. My local GSDCA club has about 250 members. About 10 of them are active in the show ring and are running decently sized kennels. There are more than twice that many “breeders” in my area just popping out puppies and selling them on craigslist. So you tell me who’s affecting the breed more?


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

So it's the politics that have done the real damage. That's too bad. Can't we just judge the dogs without regard to their owners or what line they are or who's judging...


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Yep... the people you should be more worried about are the ones breeding their oversized swayback pets (not bashing oversized here- I have a dog who ended up above the standard....but we all know the kinds of dogs I'm talking about) with no titles, no health certs, no nothing, and raking in all the puppy money with little expenditure. THOSE dogs are a lot more prevalent than the SL's with extreme roaches (and the health problems are a lot more evident and rampant). There's this myth that keeps getting circulated thanks in part to that documentary that the vast majority of GSD's are these roached monsters... they're actually not that common to stumble across... yeah, it does happen and it's horrid, and it's horrid that the politics play into it. However, to bash an entire section of breeders, most of whom producing conformationally sound dogs, because of such outliers is not really logical. 


For the record, Skywalker's Mom... the dogs you have so heavily criticized directly to the owners on this forum actually have pretty nice conformation... so rather than start blanket, nasty threads, you should first actually learn what you're looking at and use THAT as a basis for discussion/learning.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LoveEcho said:


> Yep... the people you should be more worried about are the ones breeding their oversized swayback pets (not bashing oversized here- I have a dog who ended up above the standard....but we all know the kinds of dogs I'm talking about) with no titles, no health certs, no nothing, and raking in all the puppy money with little expenditure. THOSE dogs are a lot more prevalent than the SL's with extreme roaches (and the health problems are a lot more evident and rampant).



Agreed to both Tory and Max. I was addressing the show line comment only and not the overall picture. IMO, as far as bringing the show dogs back to the moderate, change the politics you change the breeding.

But I also feel the "extreme" dogs are overplayed and what you see when you actually go to shows are dogs with nice conformation. Not what I would want as a working line fan, but not the roached, frog legged, dogs you see in documentaries.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Agreed to both Tory and Max. I was addressing the show line comment only and not the overall picture.
> 
> But I also feel the "extreme" dogs are overplayed and what you see when you actually go to shows are dogs with nice conformation. Not what I would want as a working line fan, but not the roached, frog legged, dogs you see in documentaries.


Jinx! I think pretty few people here have actually seen a frog-legged freak dog...and many people here have seen a LOT of GSD's.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Skywalkers Mom said:


> Why are show people dead set on ruining this breed for $? conformation now is future health problems.


Troll much?

Seems so...only one reply in the 4 page thread linked below with a title intended to stir the pot--just like this one. Hmmmmm.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...10890-still-wondering-if-site-worth-time.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL She does seem to like to shout random comments and leave.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Argh, you know as one of those dreaded "show people", that I can't let this pass without a comment.




Jax08 said:


> IMO, the problem isn't the "show" people but the AKC and the politics within. True story...a guy takes a beautiful WGSL to a show of ASL. The dog is the best in the ring. The ASL's won't allow the judge to touch them. Are skittish and look terrible. The ASL gets pinned.



At an AKC conformation show, if the dog won't allow the judge to touch it, _the dog is excused from the ring_, and the judge's book is marked "excused, unable to examine". If the dog is menacing or threatening, that is noted. Three menacing or threatening excusals, will get your dog disqualified from showing again. I've seen dogs excused for not letting the judge examine them. I personally haven't witnessed a dog attempting to bite a judge. Yes, there are some skittery dogs out there, but the majority of the GSDs that I show my dogs against aren't spooky nut cases. I do find it hard to believe that _none_ of the ASL dogs in your example would let the judges touch them. And the statement that the WGSL "was the best in the ring" is subjective. Judges interpretation. Sometimes I think my dog is the best in the ring, or at least in her particular class. Doesn't mean the judge agrees with me.

As far as the beautiful WGSL getting dumped for the skittery ASL, it happens. _It also happens the other way._ I was at a GSD specialty in Ft Worth with one of my bitches. She won her American Bred class. There was a single bitch entered in the Open class and it was a GSL. To my eye, the bitch was out of coat and was a so-so mover. I wasn't impressed. I've competed against better GSLs at the shows. The judge picked the GSL bitch for his Winners Bitch, Best of Winners and Best Opposite. The girl showing the dog had zero clue what she was doing, and had the dog stacked wrong. The judge was falling all over himself to help her in the ring. I was floored when she went Winners. Everyone at ringside just looked at each other. It was done to make a statement. The bitch was not shown in the 2 all breed shows that weekend. Only the specialty. 




Jax08 said:


> The AKC allows professional handlers so it's WHO you are not what the dog is. The AKC allows multiple entries under one person so the judges will pin an entry from that person because they are spending the most money.



As far as professional handlers go, yes, the GSD ring is dominated by them. It's darn hard to run around the ring with a GSD and make it look good. My handler shows my dog WAY better than I ever could. I look like a bumbling idiot, and my handler just floats around the ring with my dog. 

As for "it's WHO you are, and not what the dog is", well, sometimes it is. But you just suit up, and show up, and go for it. You aren't going to get away from some politics no matter what venue you are showing in. I do know that my dogs have beaten dogs shown by TOP handlers, sometimes with my handler, and sometimes with a kid (junior) or my dog's co-owner showing her. Remember the story I just told about the GSL going Winners? The completely novice girl showed her GSL against handlers and won. 

There are judges out there that do really screwy things just to get judging assignments. But I know of so many more judges that are honest and ethical, and while I may not agree with their choices sometimes, I know that who they picked was not part of a "deal". I frequently go to shows that have a certain kennel of GSDs show up, with lots of entries. They are not a shoe-in to win, even with their handlers, and all their entry fees.

Sorry, I know it's nitpicky, but the terminology isn't "pinned" when you win. It's awarded.

Okay, I'm getting too wordy. I'm traveling to Little Rock next weekend to show one of my bitches, and the show talk gets me all fired up. I'll leap off my soapbox now.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

martemchik said:


> To get a championship in AKC takes a lot of money. Unless you do have a truly amazing specimen (per AKC conformation standards), it’s become very hard to get a championship. Lots of shows, lots of traveling, it’s really not that easy. If your dog is that good, you’ll see people pull their dogs from shows, deny you major points, ect.



Absolutely. Loading up the minivan and driving the 700 mile roundtrip drive to Little Rock, Arkansas next Friday to show Sage. If only it was free....


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