# The Miraculous Effects of the Bonker



## Memo182

My puppy was such a well-behaved dog when he first came to our house as a 10 week old. Then things have started to go to the opposite way when he hit the adolescence. I even thought that getting a GSD maybe wasn't for me and I should have got a French Bulldog instead. 😀 His biting problem was getting out of hand, he was becoming an utterly disobedient pup. Then I watched one of Larry Krohn's videos and he would say I should correct his unwanted behaviors, not try to redirect etc. Saying a loud "No!", grabbing the back of his neck seemed like working. But they were not 100 % effective. Then the other day I used a bonker for the first time while he was getting loud and reactive right before our regular evening hike. At first it seemed like he thought the bonker was a toy and tried to play with it. Then I applied it a second and third time. His "spoiled kid" manners disappeared instantly. I didn't even need to use the bonker another time since then but his leash reactivity is now gone almost 80 %, he immediately sits when I say "sit" (I realized the reason he wouldn't sit wasn't his lack of knowledge of the command but was his stubbornness), his nonsense in the crate (he would try to "dig" the platform beneath the crate) is almost totally gone. Also it seems he now knows I mean business when I say "No!". I feel like he respects me more but he's still confident and happy. I don't think using a bonker couple of times has messed up my relationship with him. Our relationship is now much better and it seems he now respects me as his leader. I don't understand why people think trainers like Gary Wilkes or Jeff Gellman are abusive trainers just because they recommend the use of a bonker. The bonker won't hurt your dog, it won't hurt his feelings and will make you a happier dog owner. That's my two cents.


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## WNGD




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## Sunsilver

I remember there was a previous thread about bonkers. They are not a particularly good method of correcting a strong-nerved dog like a GSD. Most GSDs would think the bonker is a great new toy:









Bonkers (The training tool): Is my dog defective or...


I attempted to use the "Bonker" technique on my dog tonight. As described by Gary Wilkes and promoted by others... My dog was being a jerk and nosing the AC vent. He ignored my "leave it" command so out came the trusty bonker. I tossed it at him. It bounced off his head and he turned and...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Bearshandler

Is your question about the trainers or the specific method?


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## Jen84

Sunsilver said:


> I remember there was a previous thread about bonkers. They are not a particularly good method of correcting a strong-nerved dog like a GSD. Most GSDs would think the bonker is a great new toy:


I don't have any experience using the bonker but Larry Krohn recommends Gary's bonker technique as an option @ 2:56 on timer:


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## Magwart

This feels like a blast from the past. We used to have Bonker-war threads because it was a technique promoted by a certain long-gone poster who offered "expert advice," based on "vast knowledge" gleaned from owning some other breed and watching Youtube videos. I think we've covered this in mega threads in the archives -- more than once.

I'll just add for future newbies who find this thread: the TL;DR summary of the past Bonker War threads from people who've owned and trained a lot of dogs is that if you need to throw crap at your dog to control it, you might consider getting off of Youtube and into a live class with a great trainer who knows and loves the breed.


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## David Winners

I'm staying out of this other than to say that there are more effective techniques that don't have negative unintended consequences.


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## Jen84

David Winners said:


> I'm staying out of this other than to say that there are more effective techniques that don't have negative unintended consequences.


Don't mean to put you on the spot but can you please speak of the "negative unintended consequences" of the "bonker" for everyone?

Here is what Larry says in the video @2:56 :

_" Look up Gary Wilkes, he'll show you how to make a bonker. Very effective. That dog bites, a loud NO! with a good wack of a bonker will really help. And guess what? You're not going to hurt the dog, you're not going to hurt his feelings. That dog is not going to grow messed up because you corrected him as a puppy. "_ - Larry Krohn


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## Rabidwolfie

You can make your dog fearful, ruin the trust bond between you and your dog, make the dog quicker to bite, less likely to want to listen, get your dog to simply shut down and become unresponsive or make them more frustrated and aggressive.

It may not physically hurt the dog or leave marks and visible injuries, but it's abusive and there are much better ways to correct your dog than shouting at them and whapping them over the head.


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## Sunflowers

Rolf would pick it up and run with it 😂😂😂
The negative consequence (for me) would be that he considers it a fabulous reward.


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## Saphire

Gus as a young dog would have destroyed it and looked at me “fail”


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## Sunsilver

To summarize, if your dog is fearful, a bonker will make him/her more fearful.
If your dog has strong nerves, he/she will likely treat it as a new toy.

There are MUCH better ways of correcting your dog.

To give another example: some pet dog trainers use a shake can - a can full of pennies or pebbles - to correct a dog for unwanted behaviour. If you have a timid dog, this MIGHT work, but he/she will only respect you when you have the shake can handy.

I rolled a shake can across the floor to test the nerves of a GSD puppy I was thinking of buying. She chased after it, and thought it was a wonderful toy! 🤣

One size does not fit all when training dogs, and the bonker is nothing more than a gimmick.


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## Buckelke

hmm...is having a dog about having a companion or controlling an animal? 
what does your attitude towards your pet say about you? Is your dog a companion or a possession? which is more important- what others think you your ability to control and animal or how you treat your best friend who would do almost anything you ask of it? 

so many questions!!!!


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## Sunflowers

I think OP is just trying to correct crazy butthead teenage behavior, not to control an animal.


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## Jen84

Magwart said:


> I'll just add for future newbies who find this thread: the TL;DR summary of the past Bonker War threads from people who've owned and trained a lot of dogs is that if you need to throw crap at your dog to control it,* you might consider getting off of Youtube and into a live class with a great trainer who knows and loves the breed.*


Actually, @David Winners recommends Larry Krohn:

"I would suggest Larry Krohn at Pak Masters in Nashville." - David Winners











Aggressive Puppy


I have had my GSD puppy since she was 8 weeks old. I have been training her ever since I got her and been socializing her as much as possible (although Covid probably got in the way of that somewhat). Every since she was 3 months old, I started seeing resource guarding issues. One day she was...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sabis mom

Jen84 said:


> Actually, @David Winners recommends Larry Krohn:
> 
> "I would suggest Larry Krohn at Pak Masters in Nashville." - David Winners
> 
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> Aggressive Puppy
> 
> 
> I have had my GSD puppy since she was 8 weeks old. I have been training her ever since I got her and been socializing her as much as possible (although Covid probably got in the way of that somewhat). Every since she was 3 months old, I started seeing resource guarding issues. One day she was...
> 
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> www.germanshepherds.com


You seem very fond of quoting other people and suggesting trainers you really don't understand. You take things out of context a lot as well.
It is clear you can read and study, but I would suggest more hands on if you do not understand why a bonker should not be recommended.


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## Heartandsoul

There are so many ways to instill respect between human and canine. @Memo182, my last boy, at 2yrs old and 103 lbs czech WL used to do the snappy happy dance when the prong and leash came out because it meant fun time. Yes he was being bratty but he was happy. All I had to do to extinguish 100% of the brattyness was to stay still til he settled himself down. I just waited him out. Only took about 10 mins or so for him to realize he wasn’t going anywhere until he sat and all I did was stay still. each “Next time“ was shorter and inside of a week He would just rush to me and,sit. And it was extinguished 100%

same with my new pup at mealtime. He goes nuts barking and jumping. All I have had to do is stop prepping the meal and look at him. No words, just a matter of fact look. He stops, looks at me and He sits. If I continue the look, he will offer a down. the behavior is not yet 100% but a little more time and it will be. And. All I have to do is look at him. Just looking at him is way more satisfying than hitting him with anything. Plus I get to praise him for using his brain.

I’m not a trainer, just a newbie and onto my 2nd GSD. I want the respect from this little guy that my boy gave me so I listen to the good trainers on here past and present, listen to my heart and my dogs. Bonking isn’t a good idea based on the info in that Sunsilver linked to “ Bonkers (the training tool……)


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## Jen84

Sabis mom said:


> You seem very fond of quoting other people and suggesting trainers you really don't understand. You take things out of context a lot as well.
> It is clear you can read and study, but I would suggest more hands on if you do not understand why a bonker should not be recommended.


Can you please show me where I suggested a trainer I really don't understand ?

Did I take something out of context in this thread? If I did, I will publicly apologize.

If I took something out of context in another thread I really wish you or others would point it out right away. That is how some of us learn. That being said, can you please go to the thread where I took things out of context and show me and I will be more than happy to correct myself and apologize? 

As far as bonker goes, it is being suggested as a tool by OP and his method is validated by Larry Krohn. 

David Winners recommends Larry Krohn but it seems that he disagrees with this "bonker" approach; which is okay.

David says:


David Winners said:


> I'm staying out of this other than to say that there are more effective techniques that don't have negative unintended consequences.


And this is what I said:



Jen84 said:


> *Don't mean to put you on the spot but can you please speak of the "negative unintended consequences" of the "bonker" for everyone?*
> 
> Here is what Larry says in the video @2:56 :
> 
> _" Look up Gary Wilkes, he'll show you how to make a bonker. Very effective. That dog bites, a loud NO! with a good wack of a bonker will really help. And guess what? You're not going to hurt the dog, you're not going to hurt his feelings. That dog is not going to grow messed up because you corrected him as a puppy. "_ - Larry Krohn


Larry is saying there are NO issues and David is saying there is. I have NO doubt that David has a logical reason for what he is saying and I would like to hear it. If you don't, then don't read this thread. Simple.


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## Steve Strom

Memo182 said:


> My puppy was such a well-behaved dog when he first came to our house as a 10 week old. Then things have started to go to the opposite way when he hit the adolescence. I even thought that getting a GSD maybe wasn't for me and I should have got a French Bulldog instead. 😀 His biting problem was getting out of hand, he was becoming an utterly disobedient pup. Then I watched one of Larry Krohn's videos and he would say I should correct his unwanted behaviors, not try to redirect etc. Saying a loud "No!", grabbing the back of his neck seemed like working. But they were not 100 % effective. Then the other day I used a bonker for the first time while he was getting loud and reactive right before our regular evening hike. At first it seemed like he thought the bonker was a toy and tried to play with it. Then I applied it a second and third time. His "spoiled kid" manners disappeared instantly. I didn't even need to use the bonker another time since then but his leash reactivity is now gone almost 80 %, he immediately sits when I say "sit" (I realized the reason he wouldn't sit wasn't his lack of knowledge of the command but was his stubbornness), his nonsense in the crate (he would try to "dig" the platform beneath the crate) is almost totally gone. Also it seems he now knows I mean business when I say "No!". I feel like he respects me more but he's still confident and happy. I don't think using a bonker couple of times has messed up my relationship with him. Our relationship is now much better and it seems he now respects me as his leader. I don't understand why people think trainers like Gary Wilkes or Jeff Gellman are abusive trainers just because they recommend the use of a bonker. The bonker won't hurt your dog, it won't hurt his feelings and will make you a happier dog owner. That's my two cents.


My lack of regard for a lot of trainers aside Memo, if you notice in a couple of days he isn't listening or obeying again, don't get carried away with that thing. Its easier to do then you may realize, and I'm not anti correction. Those types of hitting or startling interruptions need to be used briefly and be replaced by something more consistent and fair to be productive.


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## dogma13

David stated he is not going to post on this thread. Message him if you can't rest until you know Jen.


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## selzer

I love that so many folks are willing to express their failures on a forum such as this. If your pup is ignoring you, than you have taught the dog that he doesn't have to listen to you. How? By giving the pup commands that you could not enforce or did not bother to follow through with. So now you need to throw things at the dog to control him. Ok. Did you ever think that maybe the reason other methods of training your dog haven't worked is that you are not very good at training? I mean, It is either you or the dog. And whenever someone states that the pup is stubborn, there is usually an owner who cannot master the basics of training: be consistent, always follow through, say a command one time, don't give a command that you cannot enforce, etc.

German Shepherds are not stupid and they are not stubborn. Most of them have a desire to work with people and are quick to learn things. When people say of the puppy, it is dominant or it is stubborn, usually it is that the owner needs training.


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## Heartandsoul

@Jen84 There are a lot of good trainers that responded to the thread that Sunsilver linked including David. All one needs to do is read it.


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## Sabis mom

Jen84 said:


> Can you please show me where I suggested a trainer I really don't understand ?
> 
> Did I take something out of context in this thread? If I did, I will publicly apologize.
> 
> If I took something out of context in another thread I really wish you or others would point it out right away. That is how some of us learn. That being said, can you please go to the thread where I took things out of context and show me and I will be more than happy to correct myself and apologize?
> 
> As far as bonker goes, it is being suggested as a tool by OP and his method is validated by Larry Krohn.
> 
> David Winners recommends Larry Krohn but it seems that he disagrees with this "bonker" approach; which is okay.


I am definitely not anti correction, as you have mentioned I am in other threads. I do chose the least adversarial approach to accomplish my goals. I started with horses, and no one is shoving a horse around.
I don't follow most trainers, for the very simple reason that they are trainers and I am not. I'm just a schmuck with a dog.
Stating that something is effective, or that it can be used is far different then endorsing said product. 
People seem very prone to take things literally and to an extreme. So when Larry says look using a bonker isn't going to destroy your dog, and then someone comes to David with a problem dog and says but Larry said it was good to use a bonker clearly there is an issue. This is just an example.
What most of these trainers are saying in reality is a meaningful correction, timed right is not going to damage your dog but there are better ways to approach that don't create the problem that needs the correction in the first place.
As far as the OP goes, puppies are generally easy to mold while half grown dogs are not so much. If you lay a crappy foundation on the pup then you reap the rewards of that when the teenage phase kicks in. It's just like building a house. One brick at a time, start to finish, and it will stand forever. Without the need for a bonker.


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## Jen84

Sabis mom said:


> I am definitely not anti correction, as you have mentioned I am in other threads. I do chose the least adversarial approach to accomplish my goals. I started with horses, and no one is shoving a horse around.
> I don't follow most trainers, for the very simple reason that they are trainers and I am not. I'm just a schmuck with a dog.
> Stating that something is effective, or that it can be used is far different then endorsing said product.
> People seem very prone to take things literally and to an extreme. So when Larry says look using a bonker isn't going to destroy your dog, and then someone comes to David with a problem dog and says but Larry said it was good to use a bonker clearly there is an issue. This is just an example.
> What most of these trainers are saying in reality is a meaningful correction, timed right is not going to damage your dog but there are better ways to approach that don't create the problem that needs the correction in the first place.
> As far as the OP goes, puppies are generally easy to mold while half grown dogs are not so much. If you lay a crappy foundation on the pup then you reap the rewards of that when the teenage phase kicks in. It's just like building a house. One brick at a time, start to finish, and it will stand forever. Without the need for a bonker.





Sabis mom said:


> I am definitely not anti correction, *as you have mentioned I am in other threads*.


You are making things up smh. So, show me one quote of mine where I said you are "anti-correction" ?

This is simply NOT true and is against forum rule #3. I am fully aware that you are not against, even, a "come to Jesus" correction.

3. Do not use untrue or misleading statements;




Sabis mom said:


> Stating that something is effective, or that it can be used is far different then endorsing said product.
> People seem very prone to take things literally and to an extreme. So when Larry says look using a bonker isn't going to destroy your dog, and then someone comes to David with a problem dog and says but Larry said it was good to use a bonker clearly there is an issue. This is just an example.
> What most of these trainers are saying in reality is a meaningful correction, timed right is not going to damage your dog but there are better ways to approach that don't create the problem that needs the correction in the first place.


Who is endorsing product? @David Winners is the one that told me about Larry Krohn lol

I'm not sure what you are trying to say?

You say, _"People seem very prone to take things literally and to an extreme. So when Larry says look using a bonker isn't going to destroy your dog, and then someone comes to David with a problem dog and says but Larry said it was good to use a bonker clearly there is an issue. This is just an example."_

So what is your point?

You don't think I should post a video of Larry Krohn ?

You want to censor the information and treat everyone reading the forum as an indiscriminate kid ?





Sabis mom said:


> What most of these trainers are saying in reality is a meaningful correction, timed right is not going to damage your dog but there are better ways to approach that don't create the problem that needs the correction in the first place.


Actually, if you watched Larry's video @ 2:45 he gives the first and, imo, the better approach :

_"You have to correct it. There are several things you can do. You know, a loud "NO". Grab the back of his neck, the scruff of the neck, give him a good squeeze - but it has got to mean something"_ - Larry Krohn


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## Jen84

For anyone reading that is interested, in the above quote Larry doesn't give much information of how he scruffs dog for biting. Therefore, for anyone contemplating doing this please refer to @David Winners in the following thread - his "escalation of force" should be a sticky:

Here is my EOF (Escalation Of Force) with a puppy.
_
"First couple times it bites, I just hold my hand there and wait it out. No noises, no yelps, no movement at all. I am the most boring thing ever. I wait it out. After the pup gets bored and lets go, looking for more excitement, I provide that excitement with something appropriate.

If the biting stops, great. If not, I escalate.

The next time the pup bites, I calmly grab some scruff, pick it up and give a calm but stern verbal correction, looking into the puppy's eyes like I mean business. I hold them until they are calm, set them down and then play some tug. I do this a few times as long as things are getting better and not worse. Usually this stops all but the nastiest of puppies.

If the pup is really a monster, I'm I want to point out that I am really OK if he is  , he may get even more into the fight when he's scruffed, like Baillif said. If this happens I will smack a dog. Usually it's when they bite hard enough that it really hurts and it's an instantaneous reaction. When you see the pup change gears in it's head, you reward and resume with proper play.

I should have written it up like this before, but I was really busy and on my phone.

It is important to me in any stage of training and development to apply the most effective training possible, allowing the most learning with the least negative fallout. This includes scaling any aversive to the temperament of the dog, the excitement of the situation, in relation to previous aversives, the response to the last aversive... it's a feel kind of thing. It also includes the opposite. Scaling rewards with the same factors in mind. You always have to consider competing motivators in training. If biting you is worth going through the aversive or negative training you are applying, the biting is more rewarding and will continue. If the aversive you apply is too strong, the bond with the dog and learning will suffer. If the positive reward is timed improperly or too strong, understanding will not happen and learning fails.

MDB, you are failing to see the forest for the trees. You can't pick tiny bits out of the big picture of training and exploit them. Training doesn't work that way. The overall picture of the dog and your bond doesn't come down to a single event in 99% of cases, unless that event is so traumatic that the dog is constantly affected by it.

A particularly soft dog can be affected negatively by a shout or stern look. A really hard dog can take a level 10 correction and go right back to play a second later. The relationship you have built with the pup plays into this as well. If 95% of the time, your hand means awesome stuff, and 5% of the time, it means an aversive that is understood by the dog, the 95% wins out. It is all about the dog understanding what the rules, rewards and consequences are for life. Clear and concise communication allows this to happen. If your timing sucks, so will your relationship, so aversives will have a greater negative impact on the dog. If your communication and timing are great, the dog will understand that this thing caused the correction and should be avoided.

Positive punishment is part of life. We learn through mistakes and rewards. To believe that you can shelter a dog from anything negative in life and have it grow up with a realistic understanding of the world is a fallacy IMO. It is going to get stepped on when underfoot, knock it's head into stuff when playing, get stung on the nose by a bee, step on something pokey in the garage, pull a vase off the end table on top of itself... bad stuff happens to living things and they learn from these experiences what not to do. Good stuff happens and they learn to repeat those behaviors to get rewards. _" - @David Winners









Ugh.. My pup seams to be in time out more often=(


punishment used incorrectly yes discipline is teaching and can be done negatively or positively too many people in general punish dogs and puppies for their own failings with that i will always have an issue I could say the same thing for a timeout. time out for a dog does very little to teach...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Galathiel

What experience do you have with the technique other than quoting others or posting video links? I thought we were specifically talking about the bonking technique that was touted in the OP. 

You can also like a trainer, but not necessarily ascribe to 100% of their ideas/ideals.


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## Sabis mom

Jen84 said:


> Thanks for admitting you punish your dog


This is from last week. Want more?



Jen84 said:


> You are making things up smh. So, show me one quote of mine where I said you are "anti-correction" ?
> 
> This is simply NOT true and is against forum rule #3. I am fully aware that you are not against, even, a "come to Jesus" correction.


I work the animal in front of me. I use the methods that will yield the BEST results, not the fastest.



Jen84 said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to say?





Jen84 said:


> So what is your point?


Again with the skewing context. I said:
People seem very prone to take things literally and to an extreme. So when Larry says look using a bonker isn't going to destroy your dog, and then someone comes to David with a problem dog and says but Larry said it was good to use a bonker clearly there is an issue. *This is just an example.*
Then I said:
*What most of these trainers are saying in reality is a meaningful correction, timed right is not going to damage your dog but there are better ways to approach that don't create the problem that needs the correction in the first place*.


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## Rabidwolfie

And suddenly I understand the Thriller popcorn reference.


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## dogma13

Speaking of rules, this is way down at the bottom of the list:

"Members of this board are entitled to a reasonable standard of behavior from other members. A level of respect and courtesy must be maintained at all times, no exceptions. You may not like or agree with a particular person but we all share a love of the dogs and we all have a right to participate in the board’s activities free of harassment."

Stop the arguing now.


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## Chloé&Buck

I had never heard of bonking, I clicked a few links and it's a bit of a mess, not easy to make a relevant whole from all the different bits out there. I do understand the aversive effect of having a random thing thrown at you, same principle as any aversive stimuli used to act on a dog from a distance. But then why would you do this? 



This guy might as well have punched this dog, the result would have been the same.
Sounds like a lot of BS for not that much value.


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## tim_s_adams

Chloé&Buck said:


> I had never heard of bonking, I clicked a few links and it's a bit of a mess, not easy to make a relevant whole from all the different bits out there. I do understand the aversive effect of having a random thing thrown at you, same principle as any aversive stimuli used to act on a dog from a distance. But then why would you do this?
> 
> 
> 
> This guy might as well have punched this dog, the result would have been the same.
> Sounds like a lot of BS for not that much value.


Well said! Bonking is bonkers! Can it seem to work in some situations, sure. But it's not the way any sane person would "train" a dog or treat any animal!

That being said, often when a dog gets fixated or is high in drive it can be necessary to shock them somehow to sort of break through so that communication is possible. Dog spats or fights come to mind, but anytime the dog gets fixated on something a startle or shock is all it takes to break the "spell". 

It can be a yell, or water, or even a kick (timed and placed well), but it's not a punishment, only a shock. You are just breaking through to their brain, not punishing with whatever you do, just snapping them out of their trance!

Absolutely nothing that was shown in the sad and sorry videos linked here required a shock or startle like that, so absolutely inappropriate and ill advised!


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## Chloé&Buck

Now this looks/sounds quite pathetic really... I have a hard time believing people are actually paying money to see this.





I mean, if you want to throw punches at your dog, then go for it and own it. Why all the BS to make it sound like you're doing something else?
"Hey, if you hit a dog when he does something, he's not going to want to do it again! Isn't that great?! That'll be a few hundred dollars, have a great day"
Wow, thanks for your these invaluable teachings. It's definitely going to change my life.


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## Heartandsoul

It is so freaking sad how a very happy open expression Tony was reduced to a freightened suspicious GSD. If anyone watching that did not see the body language difference from before he was bonked to after, I urge you to please learn a dogs body language.

Also Note how hard he is tr6ing to compensate for the damage he did via baby talk and trying to validate appeasement signals as open happy communication from Tony The GSD.

that dog couldn’t get far enough away from him and even the person who opened the door made a hard intake of breath.

note how slowly Tony comes when called. How he tries to make himself small.

If Tony didn’t say it loud enough that the bonker does do damage then you aren’t listening.


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## Chloé&Buck

tim_s_adams said:


> Well said! Bonking is bonkers! Can it seem to work in some situations, sure. But it's not the way any sane person would "train" a dog or treat any animal!
> 
> That being said, often when a dog gets fixated or is high in drive it can be necessary to shock them somehow to sort of break through so that communication is possible. Dog spats or fights come to mind, but anytime the dog gets fixated on something a startle or shock is all it takes to break the "spell".
> 
> It can be a yell, or water, or even a kick (timed and placed well), but it's not a punishment, only a shock. You are just breaking through to their brain, not punishing with whatever you do, just snapping them out of their trance!
> 
> Absolutely nothing that was shown in the sad and sorry videos linked here required a shock or startle like that, so absolutely inappropriate and ill advised!


Exactly! Why all the BS about it? It's just about triggering the most basic aversive response that exists in any living being.
If you call this "miraculous" then having diarrhea after eating too much spicy food is a miracle too.


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## Chloé&Buck

Heartandsoul said:


> It is so freaking sad how a very happy open expression Tony was reduced to a freightened suspicious GSD. If anyone watching that did not see the body language difference from before he was bonked to after, I urge you to please learn a dogs body language.
> 
> Also Note how hard he is tr6ing to compensate for the damage he did via baby talk and trying to validate appeasement signals as open happy communication from Tony The GSD.
> 
> that dog couldn’t get far enough away from him and even the person who opened the door made a hard intake of breath.
> 
> note how slowly Tony comes when called. How he tries to make himself small.
> 
> If Tony didn’t say it loud enough that the bonker does do damage then you aren’t listening.


Yep, it's a shame. Even more so knowing how easily you can teach a dog to not cross boundaries and doorways... and how unnecessary it was in that case.
Also, having a stranger hit your dog in the face like this at the door could be very dangerous with some dogs. I don't want to know how Buck would greet delivery guys if I had "trained" him that way!
Why do this when you can simply send your dog to his place or have him quietly waiting by your side?


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## tim_s_adams

Chloé&Buck said:


> Now this looks/sounds quite pathetic really... I have a hard time believing people are actually paying money to see this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, if you want to throw punches at your dog, then go for it and own it. Why all the BS to make it sound like you're doing something else?
> "Hey, if you hit a dog when he does something, he's not going to want to do it again! Isn't that great?! That'll be a few hundred dollars, have a great day"
> Wow, thanks for your these invaluable teachings. It's definitely going to change my life.


So now seen the light? You've been neglecting opportunities to boncker your dogs all along! **** it! Now you have totally out of control dogs yes?

Me neither!!! Never bonked a dog in my life and I've been training and working with dogs since 1967...so there's that...

I just really hate to see a bonker promoted as a good tool to use. They aren't. As I mentioned I wouldn't rule it out as an option in certain specific scenarios, but for the average pet home, PLEASE DON'T GO THERE.


----------



## Chloé&Buck

None of the dogs seen in this guy's videos are going nuts or in a trance at all... they are very mellow.
I have trained ways more excited/fixated pups with just the right body language and clear signals.
Also, these dogs are very much aware Wilkes is the one throwing punches here, he likes to use a rolled up towel, well good for him, that doesn't make a huge difference to the dog's perception.


----------



## Chloé&Buck

tim_s_adams said:


> So now seen the light? You've been neglecting opportunities to boncker your dogs all along! **** it! Now you have totally out of control dogs yes?
> 
> Me neither!!! Never bonked a dog in my life and I've been training and working with dogs since 1967...so there's that...
> 
> I just really hate to see a bonker promoted as a good tool to use. They aren't. As I mentioned I wouldn't rule it out as an option in certain specific scenarios, but for the average pet home, PLEASE DON'T GO THERE.


Yep, seen the light 
Finally! After so many years around animals and being partly one myself, I hadn't realized we all had a tendency to avoid unpleasant things like a stranger slapping you when the door opens.
What a revelation. Probably going to try that on my next street pups, just bonk all day so they don't dare moving anymore. Hey no movement > no problem LOL
No need to train anymore, holidays for me


----------



## tim_s_adams

same impression!, except that they no longer trust him at all! All that seeming affection is with soft dogs offering appeasement. They don't trust or like him, and neither do I!!!


----------



## Chloé&Buck

tim_s_adams said:


> same impression!, except that they no longer trust him at all! All that seeming affection is with soft dogs offering appeasement. They don't trust or like him, and neither do I!!!


Wilkes' behavior didn't make any sense so the dog is very confused.
Because this particular dog is very mellow, his response is to get overly submissive. On another dog profile, the response could be aggression.
What would Wilkes do... bonk again until the dog shuts down?
Easy to imagine how it could end in many households.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Heartandsoul said:


> It is so freaking sad how a very happy open expression Tony was reduced to a freightened suspicious GSD. If anyone watching that did not see the body language difference from before he was bonked to after, I urge you to please learn a dogs body language.
> 
> Also Note how hard he is tr6ing to compensate for the damage he did via baby talk and trying to validate appeasement signals as open happy communication from Tony The GSD.
> 
> that dog couldn’t get far enough away from him and even the person who opened the door made a hard intake of breath.
> 
> note how slowly Tony comes when called. How he tries to make himself small.
> 
> If Tony didn’t say it loud enough that the bonker does do damage then you aren’t listening.



Well and the inconsistency. First they let him out and talk sweet to him. And what a sweetie, he doesn't even jump. Then open the door and whap him over the head.

Yes, dogs will forgive a LOT and keep coming back. That does not justify it or make it right.

I'm not anti punishing a dog sometimes. But not like this.


----------



## Chloé&Buck

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes, dogs will forgive a LOT and keep coming back. That does not justify it or make it right.


True, and that's the most difficult part to watch for me. I see a lot of content out there where people get away with very detrimental actions.
And even manage to get "followers" just because they demonstrate on dogs that are affable enough to take it and not rebel.
So many low deeds, so much human cowardice and making it look like your a champ when you're just taking easy advantage... and when a dog does rebel, he'll be the monster.
I often tell myself dogs are too good for their own sake.


----------



## Sunsilver

Memo, if you are still reading this, once again, I strongly recommend you read the previous thread I linked to. One of the main responders in that thread, Slamdunc, was/is a police K9 officer, who has worked with many dogs, especially the sort of dogs that would not respond well to a bonker.


----------



## CactusWren

Jupiter bit like a demon starting at about 12 weeks. He stopped a couple of months later. It was not necessary to hit him.

That being said, I did make an amusing mistake in my early attempts to deal with it. The first and common advice, to yelp, was laughably wrong; it just got him excited and even more ferocious, as if I were a chew toy. The second advice, to walk away, didn't work either, as he would just follow me and bite my ankles, or patiently wait in the laundry room until his time-out was over--then it was back to his sharky fun. The third method was the only lasting one. This was to either press on his tongue with my thumb or move his tongue under his teeth, so that if he bit me, he would feel it.

This method actually modified his behavior, and persists even to this day!

Jupiter learned that he could avoid having his tongue pushed or biting his own tongue by using the small teeth in front (the incisors) to nip and bite. He had a way of finding any loose flesh and kind of pinching it with those incisors. The manual tricks with his tongue didn't work--because of his very long snout, it was almost like a ranged attack.

After that, I gave up trying to inflict pain and he simply grew out of the behavior. However, he still remembers this trick and once in a while, when particularly frisky, he'll pull it out and use the incisor-method to give me a pinch.


----------



## Memo182

Bearshandler said:


> Is your question about the trainers or the specific method?


I must admit my post was more like a statement rather than a question but if I had to ask a direct question that would be "I just applied the bonker method on my pup and it seemed it worked just fine for both of us. What is the abusive side of it?"


----------



## Memo182

Buckelke said:


> hmm...is having a dog about having a companion or controlling an animal?
> what does your attitude towards your pet say about you? Is your dog a companion or a possession? which is more important- what others think you your ability to control and animal or how you treat your best friend who would do almost anything you ask of it?
> 
> so many questions!!!!





Sunflowers said:


> I think OP is just trying to correct crazy butthead teenage behavior, not to control an animal.


Exactly. The biting problem was getting out of hand. I still have many bruises and small wounds on my body. I was getting afraid of the possible scenario where my pup would do that to a person other than me.


----------



## Steve Strom

Memo182 said:


> I must admit my post was more like a statement rather than a question but if I had to ask a direct question that would be "I just applied the bonker method on my pup and it seemed it worked just fine for both of us. What is the abusive side of it?"


Think of it as very easily abused because like yourself Memo, most people do it out of at least a little frustration and not being satisfied with results from what they've been doing.


----------



## Memo182

selzer said:


> I love that so many folks are willing to express their failures on a forum such as this. If your pup is ignoring you, than you have taught the dog that he doesn't have to listen to you. How? By giving the pup commands that you could not enforce or did not bother to follow through with. So now you need to throw things at the dog to control him. Ok. Did you ever think that maybe the reason other methods of training your dog haven't worked is that you are not very good at training? I mean, It is either you or the dog. And whenever someone states that the pup is stubborn, there is usually an owner who cannot master the basics of training: be consistent, always follow through, say a command one time, don't give a command that you cannot enforce, etc.
> 
> German Shepherds are not stupid and they are not stubborn. Most of them have a desire to work with people and are quick to learn things. When people say of the puppy, it is dominant or it is stubborn, usually it is that the owner needs training.


I admit that I've failed on my pup's training on so many levels. Maybe getting a GSD as my first dog wasn't the best idea although I love my pup so much and he's one of the best things that have ever happened to me. The problem is I live in a relatively isolated part of Turkey with no vehicle so I'm not able to go to any legit puppy training class. All I can do is watch training videos on YouTube and Larry Krohn videos are one of the best resources I have. That's how I got to find out about Gary Wilkes and his bonking method. Although I was reluctant to use it at first, things have come to the point where I felt like I had no other choice. I applied it and it now seems like his biting and leash reactivity are almost gone. And I completely agree that I'm the reason my pup has been sometimes stubborn.


----------



## Sabis mom

tim_s_adams said:


> That being said, often when a dog gets fixated or is high in drive it can be necessary to shock them somehow to sort of break through so that communication is possible. Dog spats or fights come to mind, but anytime the dog gets fixated on something a startle or shock is all it takes to break the "spell".


This is exactly why the prong was effective on my fear aggressive dog, in spite of common thought that it would make it worse. She was so afraid and so locked in on that fear that normal leash pressure and commands were ineffective, so we were stuck in a never ending cycle. I needed a way to cut through the crap and refocus her on me. 
A startle is effective to some extent but only if it is used sparingly and in the correct context. The bonker could work to knock a dog out of drive, or startle a dog back into focus but on the wrong dog you run the risk of unintended consequences.
I maintain that a correct foundation will avoid most of the issues requiring such measures in the first place. As was mentioned already, the OP had issues with their dog because the dog had been taught to blow off commands.


----------



## Bearshandler

Memo182 said:


> I must admit my post was more like a statement rather than a question but if I had to ask a direct question that would be "I just applied the bonker method on my pup and it seemed it worked just fine for both of us. What is the abusive side of it?"


I’m not a fan of corrections that involve striking the dog. If you watch those videos, those dogs are shutting down. If you’re shutting down a dog like that, where you’re getting a bunch of appeasement behaviors, or worse, you’re probably crossing the line. Some dogs will be fine, some won’t. Another thing you’ll realize is a strong solution to what could be a very serious problem is then applied to all problems, which is where you can start to create issues in a dog. My response to my dog attacking me, not puppy biting but truly coming after me, would be be stronger than gets talked about by trainers publicly. If I apply that type of force to every issue, it would 100% have a detrimental effect on my dog. The problem with those two trainers, Gary and Jeff, is their go to solution is beating the dog. Their one trick ponies. Dog goes in the dishwasher. Hit him on 100 on the e collar. He’ll learn. Dog barks at the door, bonk him. They are low level, crass trainers.


----------



## Steve Strom

Memo182 said:


> I admit that I've failed on my pup's training on so many levels. Maybe getting a GSD as my first dog wasn't the best idea although I love my pup so much and he's one of the best things that have ever happened to me. The problem is I live in a relatively isolated part of Turkey with no vehicle so I'm not able to go to any legit puppy training class. All I can do is watch training videos on YouTube and Larry Krohn videos are one of the best resources I have. That's how I got to find out about Gary Wilkes and his bonking method. Although I was reluctant to use it at first, things have come to the point where I felt like I had no other choice. I applied it and it now seems like his biting and leash reactivity are almost gone. And I completely agree that I'm the reason my pup has been sometimes stubborn.


You haven't failed. Training is almost always ups and downs to some level for everyone. Maybe look at it as you've got his attention now, so what you do without the bonker is what matters. The biggest shortcoming with videos is they can't exactly show some signs that your dog is getting it and progressing and they can't show you what to do when something isn't working.

Thats a huge reason why its really tough to discuss or explain corrections online. Dogs have a perception of fairness that can change a little depending on situations and their attitude in that moment. In one moment a correction for not sitting can be not firm enough, and in the next, way too much.

One thing I think is really helpful is paying close attention to where you train him, no distractions to compete with and a lot of short sessions and a whole lot of repetitions. A very clear beginning, and a very clear ending. Tell him its time to train, and tell him he's done. I find that to be a really easy way to create value for listening to you.


----------



## Chloé&Buck

@Memo182 Just make sure you can read a dog's body language, it's the only thing you need to see the flaws in Wilkes' demo videos.




0:23 > "there is no general fearfulness toward the person who applies the punishment. The fear is transferred to the situation that caused the "bonk"."
Rest of the video > the exact contrary happens.

Then Wilkes proudly uploads another video stating "look, after a while, Tony loves me again!" And all you see in that video says the contrary.
Making statements that directly contradict what you are showing people in your own videos is a bit surprising from a trainer.

Of course if you have a great bond with your dog and a couple of bonks (slaps, kicks in the butt, etc.) happen, it's not going to instantly ruin everything. It is fortunate... otherwise a lot of relationships would be ruined by now lol
But that doesn't mean "bonking is great, let's all bonk our dogs".


----------



## WNGD

Rabidwolfie said:


> And suddenly I understand the Thriller popcorn reference.


Yup, I knew exactly what was coming up.....


----------



## WNGD

Chloé&Buck said:


> I had never heard of bonking, I clicked a few links and it's a bit of a mess, not easy to make a relevant whole from all the different bits out there. I do understand the aversive effect of having a random thing thrown at you, same principle as any aversive stimuli used to act on a dog from a distance. But then why would you do this?
> 
> 
> 
> This guy might as well have punched this dog, the result would have been the same.
> Sounds like a lot of BS for not that much value.


This guy is an idiot and you can literally see he has no engagement or bond with the dog. And it didn't fall apart from just bonking, I assure you.

How uselessly confusing for that poor dog with an idiot owner fawning over the dog, trying to convince people that the pup is happy to engage with him as it looks away, isn't excited to come to him and then runs off.


----------



## WNGD

Chloé&Buck said:


> Now this looks/sounds quite pathetic really... I have a hard time believing people are actually paying money to see this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, if you want to throw punches at your dog, then go for it and own it. Why all the BS to make it sound like you're doing something else?
> "Hey, if you hit a dog when he does something, he's not going to want to do it again! Isn't that great?! That'll be a few hundred dollars, have a great day"
> Wow, thanks for your these invaluable teachings. It's definitely going to change my life.


That's the video that started all the back and forth last time ....


----------



## Chloé&Buck

And now a happy-go-lucky labradoodle "learns" how not to jump and... Wilkes is miraculously not getting any "rebound aggression" to quote his own words  (as we all know, had this Labradoodle been confused he'd have gone straight for the jugular as they usually do)




God... I'm done with this guy, what a joke. And people pay to watch and applaud this, well you'll learn something everyday.


----------



## Sunsilver

When Sabis says 'unintended consequences' she's referring to what can happen if a dog thinks the correction is unfair. It will come back up the leash at the person who gave the correction, and they are going to get bitten.


----------



## Saphire

Sunsilver said:


> When Sabis says 'unintended consequences' she's referring to what can happen if a dog thinks the correction is unfair. It will come back up the leash at the person who gave the correction, and they are going to get bitten.


This happened to me with the first trainer Gus and I went to. He’d have been about 6 months old and I was struggling with his jumping at me when excited. The trainer took him out of crate in car, he was excited and began to jump on him. He did leash correction after leash correction, each getting harder and harder. Gus then started coming up the leash, I ended the training session and left after he told me I had ruined my dog, never went back. Gus was fine after as always. I’m lucky he is the dog he is, he lives in the moment, never hanging onto anything negative. I simply stood on leash when I anticipated his jumping, problem solved quickly.


----------



## Steve Strom

An unintended consequence can be causing anything you didn't want or mean to. It can be as simple as the dog backs up a foot before sitting to keep an eye on you throwing things at him.


----------



## Sunflowers

Chloé&Buck said:


> I had never heard of bonking, I clicked a few links and it's a bit of a mess, not easy to make a relevant whole from all the different bits out there. I do understand the aversive effect of having a random thing thrown at you, same principle as any aversive stimuli used to act on a dog from a distance. But then why would you do this?
> 
> 
> 
> This guy might as well have punched this dog, the result would have been the same.
> Sounds like a lot of BS for not that much value.


Wow, that was hard to watch.
First, he lets the poor dog go out, uses happy voice, doesn’t correct the dog, dog thinks owner is fine with the behavior.
After he scares the poor dog, then he tries to pet the dog, and dog is turning his head.
Wow.


----------



## Sunsilver

Saphire, could you PM me the name of the trainer who did that, so I can stay well away, and advise my friends to do the same?

Thanks!


----------



## WNGD

Chloé&Buck said:


> And now a happy-go-lucky labradoodle "learns" how not to jump and... Wilkes is miraculously not getting any "rebound aggression" to quote his own words  (as we all know, had this Labradoodle been confused he'd have gone straight for the jugular as they usually do)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God... I'm done with this guy, what a joke. And people pay to watch and applaud this, well you'll learn something everyday.


This guys actually angers me now. The problem isn't just some poor trainer dog owners are going to listen to this guy, but this guy actually believes what he's doing has merit. These soft excited dogs are terrified and just because he pulls them in to be pet, he thinks that's evidence of them being OK with it.

Am I wrong here or should a 3rd party not correct the dog in the control of the owner/handler as in him throwing the towel from 6 feet away or the stranger from outside the house door? No he's not hurting the dogs physically, he's damaging them mentally.

I'm not surprised there are "trainers" like this out there, I'm surprised there are people willing to pay for and sit in a hotel, watching this hog wash.


----------



## Sunflowers

Sadly, there are very few good dog trainers.


----------



## AKD

Seems like this might be a relevant trainer to mention on this thread. DIY Bonking Success Stories — Rhode Island Dog Training | Solid K9 Training


----------



## techinstructor

One needs to think about the message that is sent to the dog by bonking. I don't think it is conducive to building a positive relationship. I've also had working line GSDs who would most likely turn around and bite if I did that to them. I'm not opposed to corrections and do use them, as well as an e-collar. But honestly, the most effective training I have done is more in line with Susan Garrett's philosophy of guiding dogs to make the correct choices. I am not patient or persistent enough to do ALL positive training, but I think the true teachable moments in my training have come through this philosophy and not from corrections. Memo, you should Google Susan Garrett and check out her stuff. She has a lot of free stuff online.


----------



## Chloé&Buck

WNGD said:


> This guys actually angers me now. The problem isn't just some poor trainer dog owners are going to listen to this guy, but this guy actually believes what he's doing has merit. These soft excited dogs are terrified and just because he pulls them in to be pet, he thinks that's evidence of them being OK with it.
> 
> Am I wrong here or should a 3rd party not correct the dog in the control of the owner/handler as in him throwing the towel from 6 feet away or the stranger from outside the house door? No he's not hurting the dogs physically, he's damaging them mentally.
> 
> I'm not surprised there are "trainers" like this out there, I'm surprised there are people willing to pay for and sit in a hotel, watching this hog wash.


I know... So irritating.


----------



## GSD07

Wow, never heard of this bonkers technique, don’t even want to watch the videos, the comments are enough for me...

Re who pays for such advice... A new dog owner has no clue who is a good dog trainer vs who is a fraud. The first advice a new owner hears, even on this board, is “Go get a trainer” so s/he goes and gets one that promises the most amazing results, trains police dogs, specializes in GSDs, competes in SchH etc. 

I guarantee that almost every person has at least one experience with a “trainer” that s/he is still ashamed of and feels responsible for subjecting their dog to. I do, and after that experience many years ago no “trainer” is touching my dog, period. 

I’m all for and welcome expert help and advice and even hear a not very good advice but it doesn’t mean I am going to follow it blindly. My dog - my responsibility, and I take this very seriously.


----------



## Muskeg

It's weird, because I agree with some- even most- of what Gary Wilkes writes about dogs and how to teach them, but the training I actually see him doing- I don't like at all. 

I am totally fine with an un-warned (no marker or command) startle response or a correction IF the dog is at that moment doing something that could seriously and immediately harm himself or others. Jumping does not count unless it was a little old lady who cold be knocked over and seriously hurt... . But, I also make sure to train the dog so a correction isn't necessary for response. I've had times when I called the dogs off something, they came, then I looked down only to realize the e-collars were off, not linked up, etc. 

Shield K9 has some really great YouTube Videos out there- highly recommend checking them out. He has a much (incomparable really) deeper and appreciative understanding of dogs than someone like Solid K9.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

AKD said:


> Seems like this might be a relevant trainer to mention on this thread. DIY Bonking Success Stories — Rhode Island Dog Training | Solid K9 Training


bonking is really the least of the problems I have with this guy…. I believe his IACP membership was revoked


----------



## Sabis mom

GSD07 said:


> I guarantee that almost every person has at least one experience with a “trainer” that s/he is still ashamed of and feels responsible for subjecting their dog to. I do, and after that experience many years ago no “trainer” is touching my dog, period.


Right there with you.


----------



## WNGD

GSD07 said:


> Wow, never heard of this bonkers technique, don’t even want to watch the videos, the comments are enough for me...
> 
> Re who pays for such advice... A new dog owner has no clue who is a good dog trainer vs who is a fraud. The first advice a new owner hears, even on this board, is “Go get a trainer” so s/he goes and gets one that promises the most amazing results, trains police dogs, specializes in GSDs, competes in SchH etc.
> 
> I guarantee that almost every person has at least one experience with a “trainer” that s/he is still ashamed of and feels responsible for subjecting their dog to. I do, and after that experience many years ago no “trainer” is touching my dog, period.
> 
> I’m all for and welcome expert help and advice and even hear a not very good advice but it doesn’t mean I am going to follow it blindly. My dog - my responsibility, and I take this very seriously.


I have never used a trainer so no bad (or good) experiences here, or corresponding bias for/against them. But I also believe the majority of GSD owners are not well equipped to begin with (this site is not a good cross section) so take that with a grain of salt.

When we recommend to get a trainer, it's when people are clearly in over their heads with their dog and/or in a dangerous situation with them. With them, the correct response is often to find a GSD specific/experienced trainer.


----------



## Saphire

WNGD said:


> I have never used a trainer so no bad (or good) experiences here, or corresponding bias for/against them. But I also believe the majority of GSD owners are not well equipped to begin with (this site is not a good cross section) so take that with a grain of salt.
> 
> When we recommend to get a trainer, it's when people are clearly in over their heads with their dog and/or in a dangerous situation with them. With them, the correct response is often to find a GSD specific/experienced trainer.


Or they’ve gone through several crappy trainers and now have more issues then when they started.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Muskeg said:


> It's weird, because I agree with some- even most- of what Gary Wilkes writes about dogs and how to teach them, but the training I actually see him doing- I don't like at all.
> 
> I am totally fine with an un-warned (no marker or command) startle response or a correction IF the dog is at that moment doing something that could seriously and immediately harm himself or others. Jumping does not count unless it was a little old lady who cold be knocked over and seriously hurt... . But, I also make sure to train the dog so a correction isn't necessary for response. I've had times when I called the dogs off something, they came, then I looked down only to realize the e-collars were off, not linked up, etc.
> 
> Shield K9 has some really great YouTube Videos out there- highly recommend checking them out. He has a much (incomparable really) deeper and appreciative understanding of dogs than someone like Solid K9.


I used to follow his work but I can’t anymore.


----------



## LuvShepherds

WNGD said:


> I have never used a trainer so no bad (or good) experiences here, or corresponding bias for/against them. But I also believe the majority of GSD owners are not well equipped to begin with (this site is not a good cross section) so take that with a grain of salt.
> 
> When we recommend to get a trainer, it's when people are clearly in over their heads with their dog and/or in a dangerous situation with them. With them, the correct response is often to find a GSD specific/experienced trainer.


I always recommend a trainer for a newer owner who is getting themselves into trouble. It’s better to err in that direction than to end up with a teenaged dog they can’t handle that ends up in rescue. It never hurts to consult with a good trainer. A bad trainer is worse than none though.


----------



## brittanyS

I have found that going to a trainer can be useful even if you’re not having problems with your dog. I’ve taken my dog to several different trainers (maybe 7?) for different classes or sports or just regular lessons. Admittedly, some of them haven’t been worth the money, but the good ones have been invaluable to me. There has always been area we can improve on and I almost always learn something new.


----------



## Galathiel

I've not done individual training just some group classes. I mainly use them to work on 'yes you have to still listen even when there are a ton of things going on' with my puppy since we live a fairly isolated home life (i.e. not a lot of people going in and out, other dogs, etc.).


----------



## Chloé&Buck

Sunflowers said:


> Sadly, there are very few good dog trainers.


I think there are quite a few good dog trainers (and generally quite a few people good at what they do in the world...), just not all of them have a social media empire.
Filming videos and doing social media takes a huge lot of time and most people who love working with animals don't love technology.
My trainer himself doesn't want anything to do with it, he's just lucky as his partner does social media for him 

We just need to keep in mind that being good at selling yourself and getting clicks and likes doesn't necessarily mean you're a major dog trainer. Beware of guru-minded people and wannabes. You want to assess if a trainer is good for you? A quick look at what he's been up to should give you an idea of his mentality (what's the motive? Is that person really on a mission to help people and dogs?)
Then just meet that trainer, and you'll see all you need to see.

And never let anyone, no matter what they call themselves and how many followers they have, do something to your dog that gives you a bad feeling. Always listen to your gut.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Galathiel said:


> I've not done individual training just some group classes. I mainly use them to work on 'yes you have to still listen even when there are a ton of things going on' with my puppy since we live a fairly isolated home life (i.e. not a lot of people going in and out, other dogs, etc.).


Group classes are all over the place from excellent to bad. I will always observe one for a few weeks before paying to join now that I’ve had a few extremely bad ones, or else bypass classes and do other training.


----------



## Sitz&Platz

Everybody will have their own training methods. Some are great, others are plain awful and damaging. I trust my dogs with my life and I want my dogs to trust me with their lives at all times. I don’t believe in harsh corrections, because I wouldn’t want to damage our trust and I don’t want to punish my dogs out of anger, frustration, and what I would perceive as my personal weakness. 

Instead I prefer to find ways to teach my dogs what I want them to do by making them want to exhibit good behaviors because they’re being rewarded. It’s easier to avoid bad behaviors than to correct them.

I strongly believe in positive training, but every dog needs to understand the meaning of “no”, and it’s our job to teach them the meaning, hopefully without the use of force or adverse methods. Yes, I can throw a bonker at my dog today and once that gets old, what do I do or throw next? My older GSD is very sensitive, not fearful, but he would get his feelings hurt if I ever yelled at him, which I haven’t done since I got him 9 years ago. My new puppy is the exact opposite and I have had to find a different training approach to get through to him without the use of force or bonkers. Dog training can be challenging, and if you messed up something in the past, you can start over. We all fail sometimes, but it doesn’t mean we’re failures. 

Everybody has heard about GSDs who just “turn” on their owners one day, and from my experience, those owners typically used unnecessary aggressive training methods or they didn’t train at all. I’m very sensitive when it comes to aggressive training methods because I love dogs and don’t find these methods necessary. I grew up around GSD and trainers and I’ve seen different methods and what they do to the dogs. And I’ve seen dogs “turn” on their owners, or abusers in some cases, who were completely surprised that the dog became aggressive, when every normal person could have predicted that things would go south at some point.

You’re already in charge of your dog. You decide when they eat, when they go for a walk, when they play or eliminate, and pretty much every aspect of their lives, which is why I don’t buy into the alpha dog business. You are the alpha as soon as you bring the dog into the house. Everything that happens after that is about finding constructive ways to train your dog and companion.


----------



## WNGD

Sitz&Platz said:


> Everybody will have their own training methods. Some are great, others are plain awful and damaging. I trust my dogs with my life and I want my dogs to trust me with their lives at all times. I don’t believe in harsh corrections, because I wouldn’t want to damage our trust and I don’t want to punish my dogs out of anger, frustration, and what I would perceive as my personal weakness.
> 
> Instead I prefer to find ways to teach my dogs what I want them to do by making them want to exhibit good behaviors because they’re being rewarded. It’s easier to avoid bad behaviors than to correct them.
> 
> I strongly believe in positive training, but every dog needs to understand the meaning of “no”, and it’s our job to teach them the meaning, hopefully without the use of force or adverse methods. Yes, I can throw a bonker at my dog today and once that gets old, what do I do or throw next? My older GSD is very sensitive, not fearful, but he would get his feelings hurt if I ever yelled at him, which I haven’t done since I got him 9 years ago. My new puppy is the exact opposite and I have had to find a different training approach to get through to him without the use of force or bonkers. Dog training can be challenging, and if you messed up something in the past, you can start over. We all fail sometimes, but it doesn’t mean we’re failures.
> 
> Everybody has heard about GSDs who just “turn” on their owners one day, and from my experience, those owners typically used unnecessary aggressive training methods or they didn’t train at all. I’m very sensitive when it comes to aggressive training methods because I love dogs and don’t find these methods necessary. I grew up around GSD and trainers and I’ve seen different methods and what they do to the dogs. And I’ve seen dogs “turn” on their owners, or abusers in some cases, who were completely surprised that the dog became aggressive, when every normal person could have predicted that things would go south at some point.
> 
> You’re already in charge of your dog. You decide when they eat, when they go for a walk, when they play or eliminate, and pretty much every aspect of their lives, which is why I don’t buy into the alpha dog business. You are the alpha as soon as you bring the dog into the house. Everything that happens after that is about finding constructive ways to train your dog and companion.


I try to see both sides of the coin (not bonking) but the middle ground and I believe, necessity of both firm fair, age appropriate corrections and positive (not all positive) training.

Saying "my dog would get his feelings hurt" is a bit troubling to hear for me but perhaps I've never had an overly sensitive or soft dog. Lord knows I've been told I must never have had a hard dog 

People talk as if correcting their dogs will somehow "damage their relationship" all the time and honestly, it gets more of an eye roll from me. I see these owners often walked all over by their dogs and many of the dogs "turning on their owners" as you put it stems from a lack of leadership and proper training as often as what's more like the abuse you describe.

We see it on this forum all the time, daily, weekly at the most. There's a middle ground that's well worth exploring imo. And I just don't think it's one size fits all.


----------



## Sitz&Platz

@WNGD, it all depends on what the correction is that we’re talking about. I don’t see what my dog would learn by having random objects thrown at him. I watched some guy on YouTube, I don’t know his name and frankly I don’t care to know his name, use an e-collar to teach a puppy not to lick the dishes in the dishwasher. Something as simple as keeping your dishwasher closed or teaching your dog what “no” means would be perfectly sufficient in my opinion. 

Imo, there’s no middle ground when it comes to owners who are using excessive force when it’s simply not needed, and it doesn’t equal teaching. When I see some of the awful trainers and advice that people are getting from YouTube and certain TV shows, I just like to throw in my 2 cents once in a while to say that you can take a gentle approach and still have a well behaved dog and less frustration as an owner.


----------



## WNGD

Sitz&Platz said:


> @WNGD, it all depends on what the correction is that we’re talking about. I don’t see what my dog would learn by having random objects thrown at him. I watched some guy on YouTube, I don’t know his name and frankly I don’t care to know his name, use an e-collar to teach a puppy not to lick the dishes in the dishwasher. Something as simple as keeping your dishwasher closed or teaching your dog what “no” means would be perfectly sufficient in my opinion.
> 
> Imo, there’s no middle ground when it comes to owners who are using excessive force when it’s simply not needed, and it doesn’t equal teaching. When I see some of the awful trainers and advice that people are getting from YouTube and certain TV shows, I just like to throw in my 2 cents once in a while to say that you can take a gentle approach and still have a well behaved dog and less frustration as an owner.


That's why I specifically state "fair firm age appropriate" corrections and always do. Nowhere are we talking about excessive force which again, is why I suggested there's a middle ground. That's OK, I think what you and I would define as excessive or abusive is different anyways.

I have corrected my dog when necessary yet have never hit, shocked or bonked him. And we have the best relationship imaginable. I like to think I successfully live in the middle ground, which is a huge area to run around in.

I get what you're saying, Cheers.


----------



## selzer

Heartandsoul said:


> It is so freaking sad how a very happy open expression Tony was reduced to a freightened suspicious GSD. If anyone watching that did not see the body language difference from before he was bonked to after, I urge you to please learn a dogs body language.
> 
> Also Note how hard he is tr6ing to compensate for the damage he did via baby talk and trying to validate appeasement signals as open happy communication from Tony The GSD.
> 
> that dog couldn’t get far enough away from him and even the person who opened the door made a hard intake of breath.
> 
> note how slowly Tony comes when called. How he tries to make himself small.
> 
> If Tony didn’t say it loud enough that the bonker does do damage then you aren’t listening.


It was so sad, and so apparent that the dog was giving a submissive and fearful response afterwards. Some of us have GSDs that act like that genetically, and it is embarrassing because we think people will believe that we have abused the dog. I can love a dog that is fearful and afraid of me, but it is truly hard to have an animal that you love, that you would starve so that they have good food, that you would jump into a river in February for, be afraid of you. This clip made me want to smack that guy with a 2 x 4 and that, friends, is why I could never have a business training dogs.


----------



## Jen84

_"One of the biggest arguments the force free dog training advocates have against the use of any kind of corrective measures or tools in dog training is that, um, they perpetrate the myth that if you correct your dogs or punish your dog or use an e-collar or prong collar or anything like that, that you are somehow going to cause damage to your relationship with the dog ..."_ - Haz Othman


----------



## CeraDean

I’ll be honest @Jen84, I’m not a fan of the ratio you have for quotes to actual experience in your posts. I know we aren’t supposed to argue but I’m not sure that ratio helps most situations. And you’ve received feedback from members on that feeling.

I wouldn’t use a bonker or noise device to correct my dog. Even if you have a GSD with solid nerves but suspicion, that could have unintended consequences.
For example: I wouldn’t correct my dog counter surfing by startling them with a can of coins thrown at them because if we are in a restaurant later in life, I don’t want them thinking a pile of plates dropped in the kitchen is a correction. 
I’d rather fair, handler delivered corrections.


----------



## Jen84

CeraDean said:


> I’ll be honest @Jen84, I’m not a fan of the ratio you have for quotes to actual experience in your posts. I know we aren’t supposed to argue but I’m not sure that ratio helps most situations. And you’ve received feedback from members on that feeling.
> 
> I wouldn’t use a bonker or noise device to correct my dog. Even if you have a GSD with solid nerves but suspicion, that could have unintended consequences.
> For example: I wouldn’t correct my dog counter surfing by startling them with a can of coins thrown at them because if we are in a restaurant later in life, I don’t want them thinking a pile of plates dropped in the kitchen is a correction.
> I’d rather fair, handler delivered corrections.


I posted the video in response to post #80, which I liked:




WNGD said:


> People talk as if correcting their dogs will somehow "damage their relationship" all the time and honestly, it gets more of an eye roll from me. I see these owners often walked all over by their dogs and many of the dogs "turning on their owners" as you put it stems from a lack of leadership and proper training as often as what's more like the abuse you describe.


And yes I have experience correcting my dog lol.

Any more questions, feel free to ask


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> And yes I have experience correcting my dog lol.
> 
> Any more questions, feel free to ask


What’s your experience using a bonker?


----------



## Jen84

Galathiel said:


> What experience do you have with the technique other than quoting others or posting video links? I thought we were specifically talking about the bonking technique that was touted in the OP.
> 
> You can also like a trainer, but not necessarily ascribe to 100% of their ideas/ideals.


I have "scruffed" two out of three German Shepherd dogs I have owned.

Can I please ask what your experience is ?


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> What’s your experience using a bonker?


See post #5


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> See post #5


Is this the first time you’ve heard of a bonker? Why haven’t you used this method on your own dogs?


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> Is this the first time you’ve heard of a bonker? Why haven’t you used this method on your own dogs?


No.

Never had to and I think there are better options. I will say this, nothing wrong with keeping a towel in the bottom of the tool box even though it is 99.9999% unlikely that I would need to use it.

I was on the lake today and noticed my dog at the back of the boat trying to bite the stream of water exhaust coming from the engine. He is not suppose to be back there as it is dangerous. So I told him "NO" and gave him a light kick in the back of the leg. If someone videotaped that, people would scream "abuse" LOL


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> No.
> 
> Never had to and I think there are better options. I will say this, nothing wrong with keeping a towel in the bottom of the tool box even though it is 99.9999% unlikely that I would need to use it.
> 
> I was on the lake today and noticed my dog at the back of the boat trying to bite the stream of water exhaust coming from the engine. He is not suppose to be back there as it is dangerous. So I told him "NO" and gave him a light kick in the back of the leg. If someone videotaped that, people would scream "abuse" LOL


This aren’t emergent situations where these people are caught off guard. These are often situations that are set up. One of the things with that Haz quote. Correctly applied adversives won’t hurt your relationship with your dog. Unduly harsh corrections, especially consistently used will absolutely hurt your relationship with the dog. What’s funny is Larry recommends Gary Wilkes and yet the first comment on that video is a link to another of his videos talking about fixing dogs that have received overly harsh corrections.


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> This aren’t emergent situations where these people are caught off guard. These are often situations that are set up. One of the things with that Haz quote. Correctly applied adversives won’t hurt your relationship with your dog. Unduly harsh corrections, especially consistently used will absolutely hurt your relationship with the dog. What’s funny is Larry recommends Gary Wilkes and yet the first comment on that video is a link to another of his videos talking about fixing dogs that have received overly harsh corrections.


I agree with that.


----------



## Sunsilver

Jen84 said:


> I was on the lake today and noticed my dog at the back of the boat trying to bite the stream of water exhaust coming from the engine. He is not suppose to be back there as it is dangerous. So I told him "NO" and gave him a light kick in the back of the leg. If someone videotaped that, people would scream "abuse" LOL


Jen, I was once in a situation where I had to clobber my dog over the head with a canoe paddle to keep her from jumping out of the canoe, and likely dumping us both in very cold water, which would possibly have been fatal.

She was a GSD that really had a mind of her own, and yelling at her did absolutely nothing to break her focus on the dock she was trying to jump to. As a matter of fact, I had to hit her THREE times before she paid any attention to me at all! I made sure from then on that her leash was always within reach when we were in the canoe together!

It was an act of desperation, and it's really best to avoid situations like this.


----------



## selzer

Sunsilver said:


> Jen, I was once in a situation where I had to clobber my dog over the head with a canoe paddle to keep her from jumping out of the canoe, and likely dumping us both in very cold water, which would possibly have been fatal.
> 
> She was a GSD that really had a mind of her own, and yelling at her did absolutely nothing to break her focus on the dock she was trying to jump to. As a matter of fact, I had to hit her THREE times before she paid any attention to me at all! I made sure from then on that her leash was always within reach when we were in the canoe together!
> 
> It was an act of desperation, and it's really best to avoid situations like this.


You put an untrained GSD in a canoe? That's insane. I've been in a canoe. I had enough trouble getting in all by myself and not turning the darn thing over. I can see myself shifting enough to smack a dog with a paddle and I'd be swallowing water. Nope, that's crazy.


----------



## Sitz&Platz

@WNGD, I also get your point, but I’m not referring to people who understand the difference, which is why I specifically talked about inexperienced owners.

It’s easy to watch a trainer online and think that it’s normal to shock your dog or use a bonker for ANY behavior that you’re having trouble with. Dog jumps? Zap him. Dog sniffs during a walk? Hit him over the head with a bonker. Dog looks at you funny? Alpha roll him.

Anyone can be a dog trainer and anyone can start a YouTube channel. And when I hear some people say that they have 30 years of experience as a dog trainer, it does nothing for me. Just because you have 30 years of experience doing something, doesn’t mean that you’ve been doing it well or know what you’re doing. 

And the bonker is really not some amazing new concept, it’s nothing more than the rolled up newspaper or slipper that people used back in the days to whack their dogs. 

Many people don’t know that dog trainers don’t have to be licensed or complete any kind of training, because it’s an unregulated field. Personally, I prefer Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell for general dog and training advice, because they offer an educated opinion. And that’s not knocking all dog trainers, because there are some great trainers, but they might not be the ones with a million followers on YouTube or their own TV show.


----------



## Galathiel

Jen84 said:


> I have "scruffed" two out of three German Shepherd dogs I have owned.
> 
> Can I please ask what your experience is ?


Varik is my 5th GSD over 45 years (I've never kept multiples so these are back to backs). Trained them all myself, then proofed them during group classes. I believe in a balanced approach to training _shrug_. I don't think bonking is useful, not in the way that is touted in the early posts and videos. I would absolutely bonk my dog if it was to save his life, though. Unfortunately, I don't have a handy video to post for anything I've said. _grin_


----------



## WNGD

Sitz&Platz said:


> @WNGD, I also get your point, but I’m not referring to people who understand the difference, which is why I specifically talked about inexperienced owners.
> 
> It’s easy to watch a trainer online and think that it’s normal to shock your dog or use a bonker for ANY behavior that you’re having trouble with. Dog jumps? Zap him. Dog sniffs during a walk? Hit him over the head with a bonker. Dog looks at you funny? Alpha roll him.
> 
> Anyone can be a dog trainer and anyone can start a YouTube channel. And when I hear some people say that they have 30 years of experience as a dog trainer, it does nothing for me. Just because you have 30 years of experience doing something, doesn’t mean that you’ve been doing it well or know what you’re doing.
> 
> And the bonker is really not some amazing new concept, it’s nothing more than the rolled up newspaper or slipper that people used back in the days to whack their dogs.
> 
> Many people don’t know that dog trainers don’t have to be licensed or complete any kind of training, because it’s an unregulated field. Personally, I prefer Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell for general dog and training advice, because they offer an educated opinion. And that’s not knocking all dog trainers, because there are some great trainers, but they might not be the ones with a million followers on YouTube or their own TV show.


No argument from me here.

I like Stonnie Dennis and McCann dog training but I don't follow any trainers specifically. Haz is a bit too physical a trainer for me but nothing that bothers me and I much prefer it to soft inconsistent training.


----------



## Sunsilver

selzer said:


> You put an untrained GSD in a canoe? That's insane. I've been in a canoe. I had enough trouble getting in all by myself and not turning the darn thing over. I can see myself shifting enough to smack a dog with a paddle and I'd be swallowing water. Nope, that's crazy.


Nowhere in that post will you see the words 'untrained'. My husband and I actually spent considerable time training her both on the water in warm weather and on dry land! But she was - how shall I put this? - not the easiest of dogs to train, which is probably why someone dumped her on the streets when she was 9 months old.

Sometimes I used to joke you had to hit her over the head with a 2x4 just to get her attention. And this incident shows it wasn't that much of a joke, either!

All my dogs have canoed with me. This was the only one who actually dumped us in the water!


----------



## GSD07

I think inexperienced owners all have to start with positive only and motivational training, which does not mean inconsistent by the way, and learn to understand and connect with their young dog first with help of their body language, voice, timing, play, observation. How can one properly correct their dog without understanding the impact of the correction on their dog? 

It’s absolutely possible to hurt your dogs feelings and erode trust. Why is this surprising? Not all dogs are hard headed, not all are forgiving either.


----------



## LuvShepherds

GSD07 said:


> I think inexperienced owners all have to start with positive only and motivational training, which does not mean inconsistent by the way, and learn to understand and connect with their young dog first with help of their body language, voice, timing, play, observation. How can one properly correct their dog without understanding the impact of the correction on their dog?
> 
> It’s absolutely possible to hurt your dogs feelings and erode trust. Why is this surprising? Not all dogs are hard headed, not all are forgiving either.


My first GSD was a mix and as a teenager the only class open to me used a choke chain so I did too. We use what we are taught to use. When I got a purebred and found myself in a treat only class, I didn’t know what I was doing. Eventually the treat only instructor put the dog into a prong collar and it was like night and day. If I had been more experienced with drive, I could have used a regular collar to train her with treats and praise. She had a strong herding drive and wanted to herd anything that moved. I didn’t realize she was herding until long after that class. The instructor didn’t care, she just wanted the disruptions to stop.


----------



## Muskeg

The thing with the bonker or anything similar is that is presented by these trainers as a Magical and Instant Solution... but WAIT there's more!!! You can use it for (fill in the blank) and it will instantly stop it! Also don't forget to use it when (dog is doing normal dog stuff that annoys you).

And now you have the dog of your dreams!

I am fine with many forms of (humane) correction - as long as you have taught the dog the meaning of the "no" marker and he knows that this a correction for the behavior you marked.

The only time I do not mark a correction is emergency (dog jumping out of canoe in rapids counts)!


----------



## Traci & Michael

Rude


----------



## Muskeg

Strange response. What was rude? I see this again and again with before/after videos by online trainers claiming to have the instant magical fix for a dog. Sometimes it's the bonker often its something else. I think this is like a snake oil salesman- selling a cure-all. Dangerous for both the human and the dog.

There are no shortcuts in dog training. It has to be clear, consistent, and individualized to the dog. So these videos irritate me as they mislead your average dog owner into believing in a quick fix like a bonker.


----------



## Sunflowers

What I find miraculous is that this post has 3,000 views. 😁


----------



## Bearshandler

Sunflowers said:


> What I find miraculous is that this post has 3,000 views. 😁


Controversy sells.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Jen84 said:


> _"One of the biggest arguments the force free dog training advocates have against the use of any kind of corrective measures or tools in dog training is that, um, they perpetrate the myth that if you correct your dogs or punish your dog or use an e-collar or prong collar or anything like that, that you are somehow going to cause damage to your relationship with the dog ..."_ - Haz Othman


I will say again, you can do an awful lot to a dog and they will still come back and forgive you and love you (most of them). It doesn’t mean you should or that it’s right.

you absolutely CAN damage a relationship with punishment. I have a friend who has done this. There are certain things I just won’t/don’t say to her. But I have my opinion, I’ve watched her train. I know where her heavy handed ness comes from. The dog competes his heart out for her, but she will never get the speed she wants in certain sports because he is too worried about making a mistake and what the consequences will be. Same in obedience.

he has stress related behaviors that are worse than I think they would be if the whole dynamic was different. That effects their relationship too.






she has gone thru phases where he wouldn’t play with her with a tug toy for months. At the same time he would play with me all day.


----------



## Jen84

CeraDean said:


> I’ll be honest @Jen84, I’m not a fan of the ratio you have for quotes to actual experience in your posts. I know we aren’t supposed to argue but I’m not sure that ratio helps most situations. And you’ve received feedback from members on that feeling.


I lost my internet connection yesterday and I just wanted to add and say thank you for your honesty. Since you brought it up, I just wanted to point out to you and @Bearshandler that I called @dogma13 out on this very subject regarding quotes and citations three months ago. 

Here is what I said:

_"Are you upset because I cite my sources of information? lol "_ - jen84

And here is @dogma13 's response:

"_@Jen84 you misunderstood my post. I, and I'm sure others are interested in you and your dogs,stories and experiences you've had.Your girl Jen sounds like she was something special. My shepherd that preceeded Samson (Dakota) was white and my constant companion and best friend._
_Absolutely nothing wrong with posting quotes and articles.You come up with one for literally every situation, which is great for those who want to learn another aspect about that particular subject_._ "_ - @dogma13 










Fun training my dog


I have a 15 month old intact male white GSD. I call him Snowy, which is really apropos. We live in Texas and we just had a bunch of snow. He loved it. I have been teaching him some tricks. When Snowy is NOT distracted... he will come when called, sit, shake, lie, stand, touch (my outstretched...




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## Jen84

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I will say again, you can do an awful lot to a dog and they will still come back and forgive you and love you (most of them). It doesn’t mean you should or that it’s right.
> 
> you absolutely CAN damage a relationship with punishment. I have a friend who has done this. There are certain things I just won’t/don’t say to her. But I have my opinion, I’ve watched her train. I know where her heavy handed ness comes from. The dog competes his heart out for her, but she will never get the speed she wants in certain sports because he is too worried about making a mistake and what the consequences will be. Same in obedience.
> 
> he has stress related behaviors that are worse than I think they would be if the whole dynamic was different. That effects their relationship too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> she has gone thru phases where he wouldn’t play with her with a tug toy for months. At the same time he would play with me all day.


You can also damage your relationship from crating your dog.

If you let your dog run into the highway, you'll damage the relationship permanently.


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> I lost my internet connection yesterday and I just wanted to add and say thank you for your honesty. Since you brought it up, I just wanted to point out to you and @Bearshandler that I called @dogma13 out on this very subject regarding quotes and citations three months ago.
> 
> Here is what I said:
> 
> _"Are you upset because I cite my sources of information? lol "_ - jen84
> 
> And here is @dogma13 's response:
> 
> "_@Jen84 you misunderstood my post. I, and I'm sure others are interested in you and your dogs,stories and experiences you've had.Your girl Jen sounds like she was something special. My shepherd that preceeded Samson (Dakota) was white and my constant companion and best friend._
> _Absolutely nothing wrong with posting quotes and articles.You come up with one for literally every situation, which is great for those who want to learn another aspect about that particular subject_._ "_ - @dogma13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fun training my dog
> 
> 
> I have a 15 month old intact male white GSD. I call him Snowy, which is really apropos. We live in Texas and we just had a bunch of snow. He loved it. I have been teaching him some tricks. When Snowy is NOT distracted... he will come when called, sit, shake, lie, stand, touch (my outstretched...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com


I could add qoutes and citations to a lot of things I say. Perfect example, I could name the person who taught me about building ball drive in a dog and some of the methods to use. That doesn’t matter though because I saw for myself the results of said methods. I watched them in action. I used them. The problem a lot of people have is you come off as a YouTube trainer. Everything you know or say seems to come from someone else without the actual experience or practice to back it up. A perfect example is this bonker thing. You steadfast defend the technique and certain trainers who use it because a more respected trainer from YouTube also recommended it. Everyone else here who looks into it or the trainer, or in some cases have used similar training techniques, decries it. Your arguments for it aren’t based on actual use and results that you’ve seen for yourself.


----------



## dogma13

@Jen84 Bearshandler is saying pretty much the same thing as me without the sugar coating. We really would like to hear about you and your dogs.If all we did here was to post videos and quotes back and forth it would be like browsing a news site. People are interested in yours and each others thoughts and experiences.


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> I could add qoutes and citations to a lot of things I say. Perfect example, I could name the person who taught me about building ball drive in a dog and some of the methods to use. That doesn’t matter though because I saw for myself the results of said methods. I watched them in action. I used them. The problem a lot of people have is you come off as a YouTube trainer. Everything you know or say seems to come from someone else without the actual experience or practice to back it up. A perfect example is this bonker thing. You steadfast defend the technique and certain trainers who use it because a more respected trainer from YouTube also recommended it. Everyone else here who looks into it or the trainer, or in some cases have used similar training techniques, decries it. Your arguments for it aren’t based on actual use and results that you’ve seen for yourself.





Bearshandler said:


> Everything you know or say seems to come from someone else without the actual experience or practice to back it up.


How do you know I don't have the experience or practice to back it up?

I actually posted videos of my dog. How many people other than you, that are complaining, have posted video ?

I have a PP dog that I trained myself and I told you that months ago when you were carrying on.

And yes, my dog has bitten people for REAL... none of this blah blah blah... I think my dog will protect me.

If you don't ask questions what can I do. You want me to start bragging about my dog because you won't like that either.

I could paraphrase and make a big write-up and pretend I'm smart too. It's a lot easier to just cut and paste and let people look at the information themselves. You think I have time to spend on a dog forum all day LOL

I don't "steadfast" anything bonker. I said, I have no problem keeping that tool in the box. I don't care much for bonker but it is not much different than kicking or slapping a dog.

If you feel that strongly about bonker than boycott Larry Krohn. I'm a Haz man anyways 

And believe me, if I was truly honest how you and most come off I would be banned lol.

I'm pretty sure you remember the Nate Harve's quote


----------



## Jen84

dogma13 said:


> @Jen84 Bearshandler is saying pretty much the same thing as me without the sugar coating. We really would like to hear about you and your dogs.If all we did here was to post videos and quotes back and forth it would be like browsing a news site. People are interested in yours and each others thoughts and experiences.


I posted like 6 plus videos of my dog. Who else here that is complaining has posted a video of their dog other than bear and a few others ?

I'm not interested in BS, half the threads here are made by trolls. Anybody can make up any BS and you believe them lol.

Tell me about the Berno thread where I pointed out that he fabricated one of my quotes. It's still there which is good. But I end up being banned lmao.

Are you guys even for real OMG.


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## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> How do you know I don't have the experience or practice to back it up?
> 
> I actually posted videos of my dog. How many people other than you, that are complaining, have posted video ?
> 
> I have a PP dog that I trained myself and I told you that months ago when you were carrying on.
> 
> And yes, my dog has bitten people for REAL... none of this blah blah blah... I think my dog will protect me.
> 
> If you don't ask questions what can I do. You want me to start bragging about my dog because you won't like that either.
> 
> I could paraphrase and make a big write-up and pretend I'm smart too. It's a lot easier to just cut and paste and let people look at the information themselves. You think I have time to spend on a dog forum all day LOL
> 
> I don't "steadfast" anything bonker. I said, I have no problem keeping that tool in the box. I don't care much for bonker but it is not much different than kicking or slapping a dog.
> 
> If you feel that strongly about bonker than boycott Larry Krohn. I'm a Haz man anyways
> 
> And believe me, if I was truly honest how you and most come off I would be banned lol.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you remember the Nate Harve's quote


I got your real answer on it, which isn’t so different from mine, but that’s not how it came off throughout the rest of this thread. I can’t answer for anyone else who talks about others dogs or training but puts up nothing of theirs. It’s something I’ve talked about here before, though there were very specific people in mind. I don’t care so much to hear brags but facts about how dogs actually are. I think there’s a lack of honest conversations about certain things. As for boycotting and favorite trainers, I don’t pay any of those guys anything nor are they who I learn from. Im fortunate to have a lot of dog people and dog trainers around me. My personal opinion is they are absolutely phenomenal. Some of them have resumes you’d be hard pressed to find anything close to on YouTube. I don’t care to sound smart or anything like that. I simply look to get better and help others do the same. That was the whole purpose of me coming here, to seek out a larger group of people with different experiences than me. I’m just not fond of vicariously fighting through other people’s words or battling opinions of people who are here to expand on their statements.


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## dogma13

_Jen84's posting privileges are suspended
indefinitely
_Mod Team


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## selzer

dogma13 said:


> _Jen84's posting privileges are suspended
> indefinitely
> _Mod Team


I'm sorry that happened. I see this forum as a platform for learning, and listening to people who know what they are talking about critique those videos, explaining the dogs' body language, etc., that may help someone grow in their training techniques. I hate seeing a discussion degrade to the point where folks are banned.


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## Katsugsd

GSD07 said:


> I think inexperienced owners all have to start with positive only and motivational training, which does not mean inconsistent by the way, and learn to understand and connect with their young dog first with help of their body language, voice, timing, play, observation. How can one properly correct their dog without understanding the impact of the correction on their dog?
> 
> It’s absolutely possible to hurt your dogs feelings and erode trust. Why is this surprising? Not all dogs are hard headed, not all are forgiving either.


I truly wish this was how it normally goes. 

At least for me, it started with more aversive training only to find out later that there are 'easier', less conflicting ways to teach something, and I'm newer to the dog training world (6 years?). Sometimes the "quick and easy" option isn't the best option. I had a trainer (who actually gets recommended here a lot) recommend to at least two people I knew at the time to use an e-collar to silence crying in a crate from a puppy. Nevermind puppies cry in crates and it's a natural part of crate training that consistency and positive association fixes. Same trainer had recommended using a slip lead to cut off air supply to a dog when it was leaking (vocal) during secondary OB for IGP. Sure it worked, the dog was less likely to make noise in anticipation of being choked, but the dog started to have issues at home (marking indoors). Person stopped training with this trainer and within a month the issues at home resolved. Maybe unrelated, maybe not.

I'm all for corrections when necessary, but if I can train with rewards or redirect without causing pain, I'd prefer to go that route if possible.


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## Sunsilver

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I will say again, you can do an awful lot to a dog and they will still come back and forgive you and love you (most of them). It doesn’t mean you should or that it’s right.
> 
> you absolutely CAN damage a relationship with punishment. I have a friend who has done this. There are certain things I just won’t/don’t say to her. But I have my opinion, I’ve watched her train. I know where her heavy handed ness comes from. The dog competes his heart out for her, but she will never get the speed she wants in certain sports because he is too worried about making a mistake and what the consequences will be. Same in obedience.
> he has stress related behaviors that are worse than I think they would be if the whole dynamic was different. That effects their relationship too.


Yup, have seen this with someone I used to train with. She had a terrible temper, and was very stressed going into an obedience test. The dog knew it, and didn't want to get anywhere near her. He was lagging about 4 ft. behind her when heeling.

She had the nerve to blame the club's trainers for her flunking the test...  Talk about lack of self-awareness!


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## Thecowboysgirl

Jen84 said:


> You can also damage your relationship from crating your dog.
> 
> If you let your dog run into the highway, you'll damage the relationship permanently.


I'm not sure I really understand the point of this especially the highway thing. But I will say that for my personal dog who I compete with, I have chosen not to take advice from certain people who suggested I do things that I felt were unfair or overly heavy handed to him for several reasons. A piece of it would be yes I think it would damage my working relationship with him but that's even kind of a selfish reason to me-- the bigger reason is it just totally isn't fair or right in his case. My dog tries so hard for me, nobody tries harder than him to figure out what I want and do it. What's to correct/punish? 

Now as far as running into the highway we don't live near one but I did correct my (same) dog for chasing deer with an E Collar because of how dangerous that is. I do not feel our relationship was damaged at all by this and partly because by the time I did it, I already had a strong foundation with him where he has an understanding that I am fair, and good things produce big rewards. He had a very strong motivational recall that was awesome in every situation except when he had already started a chase which was where it failed and I fixed it with the e collar. He is still the same happy, enthusiastic dog he always was except now I can stop him from chasing game.

My point was never that dogs can and should never be corrected because that isn't my position. I do correct my dogs. I do it within the reference of who they are-- how soft they are and what are their motivations. For instance when my competition dog gets something wrong in the ring it is typically because I've explained it insufficiently or practiced and generalized insufficiently. That's on me, not him.

My lab was slow to down on a rally course in a dirt ring at a fairground where all the signs were flapping in the wind. He was uncomfortable. Correcting him would just make him more uncomfortable. What he needed was encouragement. And he isn't being "bad" or "stubborn".

I think a lot of times people are quick to assign blame to the dog when it isn't on the dog. That same rally trial one of the signs blew away during my run with my GSD and I just blanked out bad! The next sign in our run was gone and I didn't know where to go and what to do and the judge was standing there telling me what the sign said that was no longer there and I just couldn't comprehend for a second... We lost the blue on that one because someone else beat us on time due to my standing there for a minute in the course trying to figure out what was going on. I mean if I can have a little malfunction because of something unexpected so can my dogs. Did I deserve to be punished because I got confused about where the sign went and what I was supposed to do? (I'm not a person who can memorize courses btw) I'm sure dogs blank out like that sometimes too. What I needed was for the judge to repeat what she said and give me a second to understand which she did...and I figured it out and we went on...sometimes our dogs need us to repeat and encourage.

Absolutely sometimes nothing but a correction will work. I can't compete with deer. But I really think people are often way too quick to want to blame and punish a dog for their own failures in foundation, teaching, explaining, encouragement, etc.


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## Chloé&Buck

So true! Why do we love dogs in the first place? Isn't it because they are unique creatures and able to feel, think, love us back, cooperate, etc.?


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## GSD07

Katsugsd said:


> Person stopped training with this trainer and within a month the issues at home resolved. Maybe unrelated, maybe not.


 I’m pretty sure it was related. I’ve seen how attempting too much control and compulsion creates neurotic and confused dogs. 

I had a first hand experience with this trainer, hoped to start ob with my puppy in a controlled group environment during covid. Lol had to drop out. 

I was handed a spray bottle to spray my pup if he barks, and scolded for having a treat and a toy on me, I wish someone took a picture of my face at that moment  other ppl were scolded for sitting on the ground and playing with their pup, not very leaderlike I guess... Those poor dogs and a trainer on a mission to extinguish any spark of spirit or drive they have... 

Pure compulsion, one size fits all. I thought the sport dogs were treated differently and this beating into submission was reserved only for pet dogs, though, but it looks like it’s just this trainers old school training style.


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## LuvShepherds

A squirt bottle can be an effective tool to get a dogs attention when they are ignoring you or are too far away to reach. I’ve used one before with decent results. It wasn’t for training purposes, it was to stop a behavior. My dogs got into a toy squabble and were making a lot of noise. I squirted from across the room, they were startled, looked up and I put one in a place and crated the other. It wasn’t a serious fight which required serious methods but more of a noise thing. The daycare I used to use with rescues used a squirt bottle to break intensity when needed and it always worked to avoid posturing events before they happened.


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## GSD07

That’s why one size fits all doesn’t work in training. I’m not a fan of punishment with water sprays. My current dog would actually go for the water and the bottle in this case, great fun and excitement, and the arousal would skyrocket, we are talking about a 6 months old here. In that particular situation no punishment was needed at all. 

I do use it or a water hose for impulse control games though. He would not make a good dog for a daycare.


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## Sunsilver

Exactly what would happen if someone used a shake can noisemaker to discipline one of my dogs! When I did a puppy temperament test on her at 12 weeks, she wanted to play with the can!


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## Galathiel

My dog is just like @GSD07 . I tried squirting him one time and he thought it was grand, did a great juking move so I would miss the second time and then came at me, ready to bring it! LOL
Now I only use the squirt bottle as a toy _sigh_ ... I failed.


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## LuvShepherds

GSD07 said:


> That’s why one size fits all doesn’t work in training. I’m not a fan of punishment with water sprays. My current dog would actually go for the water and the bottle in this case, great fun and excitement, and the arousal would skyrocket, we are talking about a 6 months old here. In that particular situation no punishment was needed at all.
> 
> I do use it or a water hose for impulse control games though. He would not make a good dog for a daycare.


Mine never go to daycare. I had fosters before that were good with other dogs but not with people. The daycare worked to get them used to people in a dog setting where they were comfortable. I needed to get them ready to go to permanent homes. It worked better and more quickly than taking them out and trying to socialize. I kept the fear biter because no one else wanted him, and the daycare was the only place I could safely leave him to go on vacation. He loved the people there because he associated them with dogs.

I don’t train with water, I use it as a temporary interruption when they are both amped and making more noise than I can with my voice. I’ve maybe used it three times in five years. I also had a couch pillow I could have thrown like a bonker but it would have done nothing at all.


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## selzer

A squirt bottle would never work with a Kojak pup. They LOVE water. They go out there and stand in their water bucket. They jump in their pools. They try to drink the water I am spraying into their buckets or pools. The can thing may have worked, but my problem is that I can't carry around a carpenter's apron filled with toys and treats and clickers and remotes and spray bottles and air horns and penny cans. I do have a voice that I can't forget and don't have to get it tangled with the leash. It works in conjunction with body language that is equally easy to access at any given time or place. It is dual-action in that it works as a reward and as admonition. The trick is not to over-do it. Then when you need it, it is really effective.


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## tim_s_adams

selzer said:


> A squirt bottle would never work with a Kojak pup. They LOVE water. They go out there and stand in their water bucket. They jump in their pools. They try to drink the water I am spraying into their buckets or pools. The can thing may have worked, but my problem is that I can't carry around a carpenter's apron filled with toys and treats and clickers and remotes and spray bottles and air horns and penny cans. I do have a voice that I can't forget and don't have to get it tangled with the leash. It works in conjunction with body language that is equally easy to access at any given time or place. It is dual-action in that it works as a reward and as admonition. The trick is not to over-do it. Then when you need it, it is really effective.


What you need Sue, is a good bonker holster!


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## selzer

tim_s_adams said:


> What you need Sue, is a good bonker holster!


LOL!!! I probably do.


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## WNGD

tim_s_adams said:


> What you need Sue, is a good bonker holster!


Isn't that called a laundry basket?


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## tim_s_adams

WNGD said:


> Isn't that called a laundry basket?


You, Sir, need a smaller bonker!


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## REEHGE

I would definitely try that bonker......on the end of the flirt pole? I don't think it would hold up long though


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## Katsugsd

GSD07 said:


> I’m pretty sure it was related. I’ve seen how attempting too much control and compulsion creates neurotic and confused dogs.
> 
> I had a first hand experience with this trainer, hoped to start ob with my puppy in a controlled group environment during covid. Lol had to drop out.
> 
> I was handed a spray bottle to spray my pup if he barks, and scolded for having a treat and a toy on me, I wish someone took a picture of my face at that moment  other ppl were scolded for sitting on the ground and playing with their pup, not very leaderlike I guess... Those poor dogs and a trainer on a mission to extinguish any spark of spirit or drive they have...
> 
> Pure compulsion, one size fits all. I thought the sport dogs were treated differently and this beating into submission was reserved only for pet dogs, though, but it looks like it’s just this trainers old school training style.


I mean...I wasn't going to say anything about who, but yeah . The sport dog clients are treated with more motivation but harsh punishment is definitely in there and I personally went for accountability, indoor mirrors and to have a spotter. I chose when and what methods I used depending on whether or not I thought it was a more fair training method. Our heeling did improve while there, though. Better focus, more animation. I'm sure the methods they taught had something to do with it as well as maturation (my boy comes from some slower maturing lines on his father's side).


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## AKD

I can vouch for and have video evidence that a water bazooka let alone a water spray does NOT work (atleast for Trin) . 😂


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## Sabis mom

I had 21 dogs at one point. What's really odd is that hands on hips and an upright posture would send them all scrambling for crates. No raised hands, no throwing stuff, no shouting.


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## GSD07

@AKD Haha love it! Well, Hunter would be in the pool with the kids, swimming, with the bazooka in his mouth lol He’s crazy about water!


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## GSD07

Katsugsd said:


> I chose when and what methods I used depending on whether or not I thought it was a more fair training method.


 I think, eventually everyone becomes selective when it comes to training methods and advice, and starts trusting themselves to understand their dog. It’s just very hard to do this when one has no experience yet and just starting to learn, and some trainers can be pretty intimidating and overpowering.


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## AKD

GSD07 said:


> @AKD Haha love it! Well, Hunter would be in the pool with the kids, swimming, with the bazooka in his mouth lol He’s crazy about water!


Yes, lot of swimming was involved. Trinity needs some work to do, won't jump in unless someone throws her toy in the water. At times she throws the toy herself so she can then go get it.


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## David Winners

GSD07 said:


> I think, eventually everyone becomes selective when it comes to training methods and advice, and starts trusting themselves to understand their dog. It’s just very hard to do this when one has no experience yet and just starting to learn, and some trainers can be pretty intimidating and overpowering.


Consider the personality type that is drawn to being a professional dog trainer, particularly in working dogs or bite sports.


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## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> I had 21 dogs at one point. What's really odd is that hands on hips and an upright posture would send them all scrambling for crates. No raised hands, no throwing stuff, no shouting.


Yeah, I've had as many as 22 regulars, and I marvel at some of the stuff people resort to in order to control their dogs. The thing is we do forget how hard that first puppy was, or the first one that gave us a run for our money. With each dog we improve a little and our expectations for behavior becomes more realistic. I think by the time we have 20 dogs we are no longer trying to put a square dog in a round hole, we are working with the dog that is in front of us and not our ideal of what we want that dog to be. We let puppies be puppies and dogs be dogs. We know to keep bitches or dogs who should not be together, together. It becomes second nature to close the one gate before opening the other gate. And, when we are out and about with them, we are perfectly happy to keep them on lead. It is also second nature to watch people and dogs around our dogs, without putting our dogs in a death grip to cue them that something terrifying is about to approach. 

I really think that most of the problems out there are owner-problems and not dog-problems. With an experienced owner they would not be a problem at all. But, most people are not going to have 40 or more dogs in a lifetime to get that kind of experience. I really think that a lot of times people just do not give things a chance. They either don't believe it will work, so of course it doesn't for them; or they try it, but give up before it has a chance of working, before they have mastered the body language, and the dog is just confused. And most stubborn dogs I've seen are dogs that shut down because they are afraid of doing the wrong thing. The owner sees this as stubborn and often punish the dog, certainly become angry, and that only makes such a dog more reticent to try.


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