# Can you "create" drive in a puppy?



## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Let's say you find a breeder and the sire & dam have good, solid temperaments, but are pretty laid back and relaxed. They have not been used for Sch. but do well in obedience. Now, let's say you took the puppy with the most drive, but it does not have as much drive as a working line pup. Could you, theoretically, make that puppy have more energy/drive if you work with it at 8 weeks and on? I am not sure I'm even using the correct terminology here, but I think the gist of what I am saying is being portrayed lol. If so, how would this be done? Through tug playing? 

If not, what could this dog be used for besides Sch, OB, etc? Would a "calmer" dog be good for tracking? 

Thanks for any replies, I have just been reading a bunch on genetics and temperaments, and this question just kind of popped up, figured yall would be the best to ask


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think you can put drive into a dog, you can build off what they genetically have....and sometimes a puppy that shows little when young will wake up around 10 months and you'll see more. The term sleeper is used for pups like this!
Tug is great for building drive, tease the pup up for a toy and play, ask for commands before rewarding. But some pups aren't into tugging either, too inhibited.

As far as tracking, most pups need food/hunt drive to be successful, if they don't have it, they may not ever be enthusiastic about tracking. A calm demeanor doesn't really play into it as much as the willingness to search with the nose. Though slower, methodical tracking is better than dragging the handler down in a hectic manner.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

You can help a pup reach their "potential" drive through tug work, drive building exercises using food and toy, and endurance training - but if it isn't already there genetically, you can't make it appear.

Kind of like those athletes who were just born to do their sport. Anyone can practice, train, work hard, be committed, but they may never reach the same level as someone who was just born with all the right qualities to do it.

As for the tracking, I want to see a dog with a lot of drive and a CLEAR head on the track, not a "calm" dog just moseying along. But a mid-level drive dog, is perfectly capable of tracking, and some lower prey drive dogs would be good too as long as the food drive is there.

Now, if you want a companion and someone to explore ScH with, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a calmer dog, who is a companion first. Especially if this is your first Shepherd. If you catch the "bug" and need to do sport at a competitive level, you can look for that dog then.

If you know that NOW you need a dog to compete with, I would not go with one from untitled parents. Not saying that a dog from untitled parents couldn't have the drive, but just saying that someone who has gone through the process of training and titling dogs will have a better knowledge of what could qualify as a working puppy, so may be better able to place the correct pup with you.

Also, if the pups haven't been "tested" for drives, then seeing them "off" could be deceiving. When I got my male, I had asked for a competition dog, possible breeding male. When I first saw him, he seemed so "tame" compared to my female when she was his age. I was a little taken aback, as this was a pup the breeder had held back for themselves. So I walked him a bit, did a little bit of VERY basic OB. I asked her if she thought he was TOO CALM for competition, she looked at me like I was crazy (My female, from DDR lines, was incessant as a puppy, needing 4-5 hours a day of exercise and OB, and even then rarely slept). She layed him a food track, and I watched this amazing 4month old pup pulling, digging in and pushing his nose into the ground for that track. Then she grabbed a tug and set up a helper, this dog went from zero to 60 in 1.2 seconds. 

So I learned that there are Shepherds with an "off switch" LOL

Either way, he is an AMAZING boy, with a hard, fast grip, EXTREME Object and prey drive, good defense drive, good hunt drive and great endurance....then you tell him to lay down and he will shut off and do his best to impersonate a rug....LOL

Good luck with your new pup!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think there was a long thread on this in the recent past. I thought it was started by "huntersdad" but I can't seem to locate it. I think he even created a graphic to help show the difference between drive and threshold. That thread had lots of opinions between "creating" drive and "exposing" drive that is already there.

Sorry I can't help more- not sure why the search isn't working right now. I'm usually pretty able to find old threads.

Well, I think there IS another thread that covers this from Hunter, but actually _this_ is the quote I was thinking over anyway: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...uying-puppy-breeder-gamble-3.html#post2656185

"This is what many people don't understand (you are not the only one). Good working dogs are motivated by the work. It is genetic."


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## Kdrees (Nov 25, 2012)

My guy has absolutely no bite drive what so ever, doesn't even like to play tug but he has ton of ball drive. We cant even to get him to bark on command - he just never barks. I have been working on that for over a year.... I worked with him to try to increase the bite drive for a while but it never got any better. Now he is a rescue so we don't know what his lines are but from his body type he appears to be from a working line.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sjackson310 said:


> Could you, theoretically, make that puppy have more energy/drive if you work with it at 8 weeks and on?


Sort of.

Drive cannot be "made", but it can be built upon. You take what little the pup has and work with it, develop it through play and training. The flirt pole and the tug are great for building prey drive. I'm not a tracking guru so I am not sure how you would go about building hunt drive, but food drive is sharpened through hunger. Some trainers will have their dogs skip a meal before tracking, or their meal IS the track.

Some lower drive dogs have to be "managed"--it is important not to tire the pup the pup out or push him to the point where he gives up. Less is more when building drive. He should always win... but you should always leave him wanting more.

Some folks with lower drive dogs have to crate them before training to build drive, desire, and frustration. Then hopefully to explode onto the field with a lot of motivation.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Can drive be created, no, but it can be developed within the dog's genetic capacity. Also, tracking requires drive, a desire to hunt, fight to work through long hard tracks and hardness to work through difficult conditions.

Having said that, laid back and calm does not mean a dog lacks the drive to work any more than a dog that paces and is never calm would indicate a dog that has the right drives to work. Elena is not a crazy drive dog at least not in the way most people think of high drive. She is food crazy, wants to please and has a lot of social aggression so LOVES bitework. She is just now starting to play ball a bit. Hanging with her in the house or just meeting her on the streets you would see her as a low drive, calm pet and not a working dog. 

Kdrees, many dogs will not bark for their owners. My best dogs won't. Do you work with a club and a helper? Not all dogs are prey crazy and want to just play a rag/play game with someone. Some dogs still look at bitework as a fight.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The thing is also that every one has a different idea what is doing well in obedience. Do you mean they are older dogs that will listen to their owners, or do they do AKC obedience and do trial? For someone new to the working dog game, you really have nothing to compare drive level to. I expect any 3 year old GSD to sit, down, and come when the owner tells it to, especially in it's home. It's where the dog is most comfortable and where it is most likely to be calm because there are no distractions...or possible fear situations.

It is for sure possible to get a dog that has higher drive, or possibly has drive out of the kind of situation you speak of. Have you seen any of the parents go after a tennis ball? Or possibly seen them play together? I they always relaxed, if you get their favorite toy out, how do they react?

But...dogs are very very genetically driven. Many of their skills and abilities are genetically ingrained. Its why a shepherd can herd without being taught, and a pointer will point without any lessons. When it comes to drive...go and see a few litters...you'll understand what the difference in inherent drive is. Can puppies with less drive be taught to increase their drive a bit? Sure...but it will never be as high as those puppies that are naturally born with it.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you for all the wonderful answers!

So, from what I am reading, a GSD who is "calm" may actually have drive(s) but just be calm in the household? I always considered a drivey dog to be like that one in the video "so you think you want a high drive puppy." 

Personally, I wouldn't think I was ready to do Sch. as I've only owned one shepherd. But, I was considering getting a second one with a calm demeanor, who could maybe do SOMETHING outside of just being a pet. I owned an Aussie/GSD mix and he would have been great at agility, but there weren't any agility training areas anywhere near by.

So, if I were to get a puppy, the best way to bring out any potential drive would be tugs, flirt poles, and food (if I tried tracking)?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Just remember we are giving opinions, but can't really tell you if a pup from the litter you are talking about will have any drive to work without actually seeing the parents. (or a pedigree MIGHT help).


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

High drive does NOT necessarily equal hyper! A working dog with an "off" switch is a wonderful thing. Just because a dog is calm in the house, or when there's nothing going on, it doesn't mean the dog doesn't have drive. My Luka is drivey dog--but when she's in the house, she mostly just holds her bed down. As soon as I open the back door, though, she's up and ready. She'll play ball until you stop, or she drops dead, whichever comes first. And then she'll come back inside and hold her bed down again. 

Also, some pups are sleepers. They appear to be low to moderate in drive and activity level at 8 weeks of age, but as they grow and mature, their drives will kick in, and by 9-12 months of age you may find yourself with a VERY drivey dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The worst thing you can do at this point is get a dog that won't be able to do the things you *might* want to do in the future. I'm not saying you "have" to get a dog out of SchH lines, but it sounds like you're going to be supporting a breeder that might not be doing things the best way possible. No trialing in any venue, just breeding their two good house dogs (which might have fabulous lines) but not testing them against other dogs.

I also understand your perspective...you want a good house dog that you then might try to do some sport with. So since your goal is to have a good house dog, why not get one from two that you have seen be good house dogs. The reason that's not the best way to look at things is two fold. One is that you're supporting someone that isn't really worried about the future of the breed, the second is that you might get into SchH or agility and then see that your dog just isn't cut out for it. If you go to a good breeder...that works their dogs in Schutzhund or in anything...those dogs will still be calm in the house but will more than likely be able to do those things you talk about.

You need to look at "drive" as the thing that motivates dogs. That...self fulfillment that makes them want to do things. So when it comes to tracking...a dog needs a lot of drive to keep going on a scent. It needs to have it inside them to keep going down a track for miles and miles to get to the end. And yes...food drive is used to teach them how to control that skill and how we as humans can take advantage of it, but really, a dog needs to keep going (once the food is out of the picture) for its own good. I can also compare it to prey drive...and throwing/hiding a tennis ball, there are dogs that will not give up until they find that ball no matter where it is. Nothing to do with you or me, just that they want THAT ball. They have the drive to keep searching no matter how long it takes or what they have to tear through.

Maybe you're looking at all these SchH threads, and equating drive to that want to tug, or fight, or bite. But that's not quite it. If you get out and watch different dogs, and especially different breeds (that's why I love AKC obedience trials) you'll understand what drive is. There is just no training a St. Bernard to do obedience quite like a GSD.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Well, I'd like a dog with a good food drive. The breeder is not a BYB (my first shepherd when I was naive was) but it's moreso a calmer GSD. She has had puppies FROM these dogs who have went on and done agility, SAR, and tracking, but she herself has not done this with her dogs as she promotes them as calm demeanor dogs. But apparently the ability is there. As of right now, I'd be happy with therapy work, and just working on obedience. Maybe in about 10 years I will be doing Sch. or the like, but not yet.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

get the pup and train it to be the type of dog you want.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

doggiedad said:


> get the pup and train it to be the type of dog you want.


If only it were that easy! Not every pup can be trained for what you want to do. 

Higher thresholds is good, better than low with a reactive personality...especially when you are into doing therapy work. 
If this breeder has produced dogs that do what you say, then they obviously have a fair amount of drive and good temperament. Go interact with the pups, choose one that is more pack driven, and confident...of course have the breeder give you input on this, because one visit isn't going to tell you what each individual puppy is.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm thinking the OP is getting caught up in terminology.
it's easy to say "not every pup can be trained for what
you want to do". what percentage of pups can be trained
for what you need them to do?



doggiedad said:


> get the pup and train it to be the type of dog you want.





onyx'girl said:


> If only it were that easy! Not every pup can be trained for what you want to do.
> 
> Higher thresholds is good, better than low with a reactive personality...especially when you are into doing therapy work.
> If this breeder has produced dogs that do what you say, then they obviously have a fair amount of drive and good temperament. Go interact with the pups, choose one that is more pack driven, and confident...of course have the breeder give you input on this, because one visit isn't going to tell you what each individual puppy is.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

doggiedad said:


> i'm thinking the OP is getting caught up in terminology.
> it's easy to say "not every pup can be trained for what
> you want to do". what percentage of pups can be trained
> for what you need them to do?


I guess it depends on if your pup is a pet or expected to be a working dog.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Okay now y'all are confusing me LOL!
I cannot see these puppies because they are a 19 hour drive away, one way. The breeder said she has one that she thinks will fit my needs well, but I've never given someone the responsibility to pick a puppy for me so it's kind of frightening.
It's one of some choices I have been looking at, but this whole thing just raised a lot of questions for me. And made me make up some questions as well  

So what exactly are you guys talking about, making a dog a certain way or not being able to make it a certain way?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the answer has been pretty consistent that you can bring a dog up to its genetic potential but cannot exceed it. Nature + Nurture. 

If you are looking for a puppy who will excel in a certain discipline, your best bet is to find an experienced breeder whose own dogs excel in that discipline, and one who has the ability to select a puppy meeting your needs.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Okay then I will keep it at that  Thank you everyone!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as Lisa suggested post a pedigree


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Pedigree would help and do both parents have hip evaluations and have the parents been trained themselves in some working field. If not, why not. Only by training a dog can we properly evaluate drive and temperament


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sjackson310 said:


> Well, I'd like a dog with a good food drive. The breeder is not a BYB (my first shepherd when I was naive was) but it's moreso a calmer GSD. She has had puppies FROM these dogs who have went on and done agility, SAR, and tracking, but she herself has not done this with her dogs as she promotes them as calm demeanor dogs. But apparently the ability is there. As of right now, I'd be happy with therapy work, and just working on obedience. Maybe in about 10 years I will be doing Sch. or the like, but not yet.


Who is the breeder, do they have a website and pedigrees for viewing?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Where are you located that the closest breeder that meets your needs is 19 hours away? It's really not like you're looking for anything "special," certain lines, certain work ability, and I don't think you should have to look 19 hours away to find a reputable breeder that can provide you with that.

The problem with her evaluating her dogs and saying they have calm demeanor, without testing them, is that many dogs have a calm demeanor around the home, or around the places they know. The reason we trial/show dogs is to test them in areas where things are new, things are loud, things are stressful.

My dog doesn't come from the best of breeders, not someone that works or trials their dogs. I got super lucky, he has amazing drive and is very well balanced. I didn't think I'd get into trialing/obedience training, but I did and now two years later we're trying to get as many titles as we can. This next time around (hopefully a few months from now) I'm going to a breeder that works her dogs, has proven her dogs, and someone where I know I'll have a better chance of having a dog more like the one I currently have.


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## sjackson310 (Dec 29, 2012)

Yes, they are hip, elbow, DM and all that checked. 
I'd really prefer not to post a pedigree on here. No offense, I have seen how some people rip apart breeders (on here and in person). I've learned not to talk about the breeder outside of general terms. 
I've done some research of her past puppies and that's where I found out about their work histories etc. I have found a couple people on this site own her dogs. Everyone I have found LOVE her puppies and many people rebuy from her.

I'm sorry for being so vague, as i know it doesn't help.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sjackson310 said:


> Yes, they are hip, elbow, DM and all that checked.
> I'd really prefer not to post a pedigree on here. No offense, I have seen how some people rip apart breeders (on here and in person). I've learned not to talk about the breeder outside of general terms.
> I've done some research of her past puppies and that's where I found out about their work histories etc. I have found a couple people on this site own her dogs. Everyone I have found LOVE her puppies and many people rebuy from her.
> 
> I'm sorry for being so vague, as i know it doesn't help.


Would you mind sending me a PM with the info? I am always interested to see which bloodlines, which dogs are consistently producing certain traits like calmness, and how it balances with energy and drive.


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