# homeopathy DOESN'T WORK



## bite_me

I just though I would make a case against the use of homeopathy. Homeopathy is widely understood not to work in any medical context, and this has been consistently proven using scientific studies which prove no correlation between the use of homeopathic remedies and positive health effects, let alone cure of ailments. 

It is very fashionable, as are most "alternative" "medicines" (not a typo)

I'm not suggesting that concentrated medicine diluted with water is homeopathic. Many helpful medicines are.

If you use homeopathic remedies you are wasting money and failing your pet, this is the only reason I adress this problem.

Please do some research from independant sources before using such methods, your dog will suffer from your delusions if you choose not to.


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## dazedtrucker

bite_me said:


> I just though I would make a case against the use of homeopathy. Homeopathy is widely understood not to work in any medical context, and this has been consistently proven using scientific studies which prove no correlation between the use of homeopathic remedies and positive health effects, let alone cure of ailments.
> 
> It is very fashionable, as are most "alternative" "medicines" (not a typo)
> 
> I'm not suggesting that concentrated medicine diluted with water is homeopathic. Many helpful medicines are.
> 
> If you use homeopathic remedies you are wasting money and failing your pet, this is the only reason I adress this problem.
> 
> Please do some research from independant sources before using such methods, your dog will suffer from your delusions if you choose not to.



As a mom of 5 kids I have found some homeopathic treatments to be very useful. Example?? Apparently you have had a bad experience??


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## bite_me

dazedtrucker said:


> As a mom of 5 kids I have found some homeopathic treatments to be very useful. Example?? Apparently you have had a bad experience??


I'm sorry but that's impossible. You may be looking for improvements in (behaviour?) and are therefore finding them. There is evidence that all placebos help with a variety of problems, especially sleep issues. A sugar pill has shown such effects.

The problem is, pets cannot be informed they are ingesting something that will help them, so even the placebo effect is lost on them. I have known people who have attempted to treat gum problems with their dog, and was told it "wasn't scientific, but still worked" and had to watch the dog suffer for weeks due to it's owners weird obsession with "natural remedies" which DO. NOT. WORK. Until they took it to the vet who thankfully cured it in a day.


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## dazedtrucker

I used homeopathic tablets for my daughter who had colic, at 3 months old...they helped alot. She wasn't old enough to be "TOLD" anything...she's 15 now....I would never deny medical treatment for a child or pet, just feel homeopathy does have a place in the world....


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## dazedtrucker

Someone has an attitude problem...bite me is my motto  I go with what works...not some tree hugging freak. Crazy bitch is my CB handle.....ROFL!


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## bite_me

dazedtrucker said:


> I used homeopathic tablets for my daughter who had colic, at 3 months old...they helped alot. She wasn't old enough to be "TOLD" anything...she's 15 now....I would never deny medical treatment for a child or pet, just feel homeopathy does have a place in the world....


I guess we may be disagreeing on what homeopathy is, the "water has a memory and gets stronger when diluted" is the one I'm attacking here, and it is certainly a fraudulent industry, as has been unanimously proven.

I'm guessing such low doses would go unnoticed in a 3 month old anyway, you wouldn't be able to judge whether the child simply got better despite the tablets.


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## dazedtrucker

** comment removed by Admin**


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## dazedtrucker

disagreeing has nothing to do with you being a dum...fill in the blank


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## dazedtrucker

I am going to bed now....but seriously, y did some jackball come on a GSD forum to argue about homeopathy? There are other way neater places for you to start ****. bye bye. blah..


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## stolibaby

I am a nurse and can definately say homeopathic remedies DO work in some cases. Now will it cure every disease and make everyone feel better of course not. However more and more alternative treatments are being studied AND utilized in the health care field and with SUCCESS. I am sorry if you had a bad experience with homeopathics and have seen some awful things happen in the name of holistic medicine....but just as bad things happen in the name of science as well.


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## bite_me

If anyone has studies showing a proven improvement in health after homeopathy in humans or animals please provide them. Perhaps my tone is too agressive but this comes down to cases such as the one I mentioned.


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## Draugr

Holistic and homeopathic are not synonymous, by the way.

I think some of the confusion might be stemming from that.


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## NancyJ

Your user name implies that perhaps you have joined for the sake of argument and confontation? 

I remain to be open minded, having seen some strange, wonderful and unexplained results from a homeopathic course. I am probably going to take an allopathic course on something acute and life threatenting but will try homeopathy for other things where giving it a chance is not going to endanger health or life.


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## JakodaCD OA

I am also quite open minded when it comes to results of homeopathic remedies.

while I am not into the 'studies', I guess unless you've never experienced results, well you wouldn't be so open minded to them. 

There's alot of alternative treatment stuff going on out there, and what works for one may not work for another.

I suppose you think Chinese Medicine doesn't work either?


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## annie

Well if it did not work, why is it being practiced all over the world?


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## arycrest

Draugr said:


> Holistic and homeopathic are not synonymous, by the way.
> 
> I think some of the confusion might be stemming from that.


Could you please explain the difference for me ... I always use the two terms interchangeably and have really never known what the difference is.


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## Draugr

arycrest said:


> Could you please explain the difference for me ... I always use the two terms interchangeably and have really never known what the difference is.


Sure! And don't feel bad because I used to do the exact same thing. I'll make a quick note of another term here too which I also used to use interchangeably. There is some overlap between the three things I mention but they are still distinct.

And a word of warning, homeopathy is something I feel strong enough about that I can't really phrase it neutrally and feel honest about myself. This board doesn't have spoiler tabs so I guess I'll just visually separate it from the rest.

_Natural_ medicine is fairly broad, but generally you're looking at anything which uses natural forms of treatment (yes, bad me, I used the word in the definition! If Webster can do it so can I! ). A purely natural form of treatment philosophy would eschew chemical compounds for treatments in favor of substances in a more elemental form. For instance, you'd be more likely to be prescribed medicinal marijuana rather than Codiene.

_Holistic_, as it relates to health, refers to a philosophy of medicinal practice which considers the entire body (_holos_ - Greek for "whole") for purposes of treatment, or at least recognizes that you can't always reduce an ailment down to a single isolated area of a single body system. In this sense, modern western medicine is "holistic" in some regards, though not to the same degree as other treatment methodologies. In modern medicine, for example, we realize that an upset in the endocrine system can radiate outwards and affect other bodily symptoms, such as the immune system. We don't consider body systems to be isolated, and we'll even treat according to that. In dogs, for instance, problems related to prostate enlargement are often treated by castration - we're using the endocrine system to affect something in the urogenital system.

It's hard to put in words, I guess, but you could consider "holistic" to be "whole body" medicine. That can mean a _lot_ of things. Eastern medicine is more "traditionally" holistic, I guess (and things like acupuncture are what people more commonly think of when they hear holistic), but I'd even consider modern medicine holistic on a literal interpretation of the words.

~~~Semi-Rant stuff Follows~~~

_Homeopathic_ refers to treatments related to an...and here, I guess I'll show my own bias, because frankly, I guess I'm of strong enough opinion about it that I can't phrase it neutrally. 

But, to move on - treatments related to an outdated and disproven system of medicine based on an _also_ outdated and disproven theory of disease transmission. It was developed by a German in the...I think, early 1800s? Maybe really late 1700s? At the time, bloodletting was the commonly accepted treatment for most ailments - something so harmful_ doing nothing at all_ would give you better results. 

The tenets of homeopathy claim things which frankly fly in the face of proven laws in hard, evidence-based sciences. Although the OP phrased it in an extremely combative manner, he is right - studies have shown no different success rates with homeopathic treatment than what placebos offer. Placebos have a remarkably high success rate in pain treatment (what homeopaths often are consulted to treat). There have been multiple reviews and scientific trials which fail to show any efficacy whatsoever, and to be honest, I'm not sure why you need them - for homeopathy to work, as written by its founder, you'd have to throw away the foundations of at least mathematics, biology, physics, and I'm sure several other hard sciences.

The way to know if you're being treated by a homeopathic practitioner, rather than a holistic practitioner - is if you're getting "tinctures" - which are basically a "remedy" that has been diluted so far down that no molecules of the substance originally intended to treat remains. It's literally just a vial of water. A holistic practitioner (in practice, rather than theory, since natural is not synonymous with holistic) is more likely to give you natural remedies for ailments.



annie said:


> Well if it did not work, why is it being practiced all over the world?


Annie, that's not necessarily proof of anything. As I mentioned above, bloodletting used to be a very commonly accepted medicinal practice, as was trepanning (drilling holes into the skull). We now know these are _extremely_ harmful and more likely to kill you than not, but at the time, they were practiced over much of the world. To determine whether something "works," you want rigorous, well-developed trials proving that they either do or don't. The simple fact that people do something, no matter how many, is not proof or disproof of anything. To phrase it in a manner your mother probably often told you - if all your friends were jumping off a cliff, would you?

In large enough numbers it probably indicates that maybe it's at least something to take a look at, but it's hardly proof/disproof.

~

Look, in the end, what I will say is this - some people are a lot more willing to take things on faith. I'm a fairly rigorous guy. I need hard, scientific evidence. Definitive proof that would hold up under a court of law. I can't look at the foundational tenets of homeopathy and take them seriously, as they fly in the face of everything we've known about the world around us for centuries (yes, some of it even predating the development of homeopathy). Some people will say, "I've seen it work, with my own eyes," and while I know how I'd explain that, some people will not be dissuaded and I guess that is their prerogative. Homeopathy requires a _lot_ of faith, to put it nicely. I'm reasonably open minded, in that some cases I'm willing to accept the *potential* or *possibility* of things (as distinct from believing in it) based on little proof, but I just honestly cannot see any room for homeopathy in the modern world.


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## Draugr

Ran out of edit time, I wanted to change the last bit:



> Look, in the end, what I will say is this - some people are a lot more willing to take things on faith. I'm a fairly rigorous guy. I need hard, scientific evidence. Definitive proof that would hold up under a court of law. I can't look at the foundational tenets of homeopathy and take them seriously, as they fly in the face of everything we've known about the world around us for centuries (yes, some of it even predating the development of homeopathy). Some people will say, "I've seen it work, with my own eyes," and while I know how I'd explain that, some people will not be dissuaded and I guess that is their prerogative. Homeopathy requires a _lot_ of faith, to put it nicely. I'm reasonably open minded, in that some cases I'm willing to accept the *potential* or *possibility* of things (as distinct from believing in it) based on little proof, but I just honestly cannot see any room for homeopathy in the modern world. Holistic or natural practices? Absolutely! 100%! I think those two have a lot to offer us, and is also where a lot of strides are being made in modern medicine.
> 
> A lot of people see things differently, though. All I say to that, is, if you're someone who takes stock in homeopathy...just be careful, please. And don't take your pet to a homeopathic veterinarian which excludes modern or even other alternative forms of medicine. Get someone who will take things from all systems of medicine, at the very least.


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## NancyJ

Well, I have a graduate degree in chemistry and went to a seminar where an improved response was seen at an incredibly low dilution of a drug. I asked about it and was told "probably an artifact"......One problem with science is we often see what we want to see, going into it with our own mental filters. I often wondered about that study and others and quantum states of energy etc.

After all, if you get down far enough, you realize all matter is......energy......

We are the consummate generalizers. Doors of Perception and all that 60s stuff (not advocating drugs but the concept of the doors we put up to block our overwhelmed senses is intersting)

FWIW, Leeches are now a widely accepted medical tool as are maggots  
Treplaning - well we know that pressure on the brain kills brain cells. Primitive technique but they were doing it for the right reasons.


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## crackem

I have no experience with homeopathy at all, never took a remedy, never even seen on. Heard of a few though.

I wouldn't discount something just because "science" let alone "western medicine" can't explain or find a reason why.

We used to think atoms were the smallest particle around, it's why it's called the "atom" it's from a greek or latin word atomus which meant indivisible. Science was sure we found the smallest thing something could be made of, so they called it the atom. Then we had contributions from Bohr, Pauli, Born..... then Chadwick and recent ones like Leon Lederman and his search for the "god particle" have all been able to further define and break down and "divide" the "indivisible" atom. 

I highly doubt much is in the way to prove or disprove homeopathy. "science" doesn't care at this point, maybe there is nothing to detect, maybe they don't know what they're looking for, maybe they can't detect what is there with the science we have available.

and western med type people find it easy to say, there's nothing there but water, and dismiss it that way. Those that do use it, don't care, because it works for them and don't really care if you believe it or not. I doubt there is much need or push for "research" in this area. I wouldn't look to hard for breaking research.


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## Draugr

jocoyn said:


> FWIW, Leeches are now a widely accepted medical tool as are maggots


Right, but I didn't bring those up because they actually have physical effect on our body...water is an inert substance. Leeches are great for thinning blood, maggots are incredibly effective and precise at removing dead flesh.



> Treplaning - well we know that pressure on the brain kills brain cells. Primitive technique but they were doing it for the right reasons.


I think originally this was done to "let the evil spirits out" wasn't it? I may be wrong on that one. But, yeah, in a very few cases, they actually were doing the right thing because the reason the person was "acting possessed" was increased pressure on the brain.



> Well, I have a graduate degree in chemistry and went to a seminar where an improved response was seen at an incredibly low dilution of a drug


But, was the drug still there, in a mathematical sense? Homeopathic dilutions generally surpass Avogadro's limit (in this specific sense, a ratio of water to active substance beyond which no amount of the original active substance is capable of existing). 

And beyond that, it was an actual drug, intended to target a specific ailment - some of these homeopathic remedies use things like red onion to treat hay fever. Now, at least in that specific sense, the two forces acting to make your eyes run are 100% different...that doesn't even follow the whole "like cures like" mantra. I don't know if there's maybe an anti-inflammatory in onion, perhaps, but in that case I'd be wanting to eat an onion...not drink a vial of water that used to have a tiny bit of onion in it =/.


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## GSDElsa

Completely bizarre thing to join a board just to rant about.

Sometimes it works. Sometiems it doesn't. If it's not hurting anything, just let it be.


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## NancyJ

I wish I could remember the exact details. I do understand the homeopathic agent is actually an extreme dilution of a substance which causes the problem as opposed to a drug which supresses symptoms. Even so - it is intriguing - if we look with newer insights in quantum physics......Not a student of this..........my point is it seems intriguing and my main point was we see what we want to even when we think we are being completely objective.


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## MicheleMarie

holistic good
homeopathy....eh

i am going to school for holistic therapy in nutrition. we use holistic in the sense that we (or in this case a dog) is more than the sum of it's parts. you can't focus on a symptom....i.e taking advil for a headache. what is causing the headache in the first place??? an organism is tied together-one function can't function properly without another function etc. when we provide our bodies (or our dogs) with everything they need: nutrition, mind works, exercise etc. the dogs should balance out-their bodies know how to keep themselves balanced, but they can only do this if supplied everything their body needs.

i could talk about this forever. but that's my view.
as for homeopathy treatments-research and research, what may work for one may not work for another. for example someone mentioned chinese medicine. well that's great for people over in china whose bodies originated differently all together.....may not really work for us westerners.


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## paulag1955

bite_me said:


> If anyone has studies showing a proven improvement in health after homeopathy in humans or animals please provide them. Perhaps my tone is too agressive but this comes down to cases such as the one I mentioned.


You made a huge, unsubstantiated claim that all homeopathic remedies are ineffective so I think you should be the one to provide supporting documents.


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## Anja1Blue

bite_me said:


> I just though I would make a case against the use of homeopathy. Homeopathy is widely understood not to work in any medical context, and this has been consistently proven using scientific studies which prove no correlation between the use of homeopathic remedies and positive health effects, let alone cure of ailments.
> 
> It is very fashionable, as are most "alternative" "medicines" (not a typo)
> 
> I'm not suggesting that concentrated medicine diluted with water is homeopathic. Many helpful medicines are.
> 
> If you use homeopathic remedies you are wasting money and failing your pet, this is the only reason I adress this problem.
> 
> Please do some research from independant sources before using such methods, your dog will suffer from your delusions if you choose not to.


Too funny - do you work for a large pharmaceutical company which feels threatened by people who actually want to pursue other options? Methinks you started this in the hope of getting a rise out of the (intelligent and well informed) people on this forum who have had quite a bit of success with homeopathic/holistic medicine (I'm one of them.) If you have tried it and are disappointed, that's too bad. It tends to work slowly, which doesn't sit well with people who wanted to be cured yesterday. 
_________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## bite_me

Ok so I have been accused of being stupid and trolling this site. This is not true on both accounts, I have a legitimate interest in GSDs as can be observed with my other posts. It irks me that dogs (and people) suffer from their minders delusions. Homeopathy is the same as faith-healing, voodoo, witchcraft and many other "alternative medicines"

Well ok then, here are some findings of an official NHS homeopathy study (after investing millions in developing the field) 

full report with extensive referencing etc;
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/45/45.pdf

there are plenty of other reports available with the same findings.

This is CONCLUSIVE evidence. If you don't trust the "science" you should refrain from making your views public, they are irrationtal and idiotic, go to "creation.com" or an anti-vaccination website if you want an equally unintelligent audience who will be sympathetic.

Here is a few examples of the findings;

29. The answer to why a medicine can be effective without being efficacious lies with a​phenomenon known as the placebo effect.
30. There is extensive scientific literature on placebos and the placebo effect.33

54.​*We conclude that the principle of like-cures-like is theoretically weak. It fails to
provide a credible physiological mode of action for homeopathic products. We note*​*
that this is the settled view of medical science.*57
61.​*We consider the notion that ultra-dilutions can maintain an imprint of substances*​
*previously dissolved in them to be scientifically implausible.*
*154. We welcome the Government’s acknowledgement that there is no credible evidence of*
*efficacy for homeopathy, which is an evidence-based view. However, the Government’s*
*view has not translated into evidence-based policies.*
*155. The NHS funds homeopathy and has done so since 1948. We were disappointed that,*
*in light of its view on evidence for homeopathy, the Government has no appetite to review*
*its policies in favour of an evidence-based approach. The Government was reluctant to*
*address the issues of informed patient choice or the appropriateness and ethics of*​*prescribing placebos to patients.*
*11. *​In our view, the systematic reviews and meta-analyses conclusively demonstrate that​
*homeopathic products perform no better than placebos. (Paragraph 70)*


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## NancyJ

Perhaps because too many people have experienced unexplained benefits in their own lives from a homeopathic remedy to be so quick to write them off.

-----

And personally, I think it is quite rude to jump on and tell anyone who does not hold your opinion that they are delusional if they don't hold with it. Last time I looked nobody was holding your feet to the fire demanding you give your own dog homeopathic remedies.


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## Castlemaid

There was a time when acupuncture was considered to be bunk. Modern Western Science still cannot find and identify the body energy paths that acupuncture treats, yet there is plenty of evidence that it works.


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## carmspack

for the longest time many modalities that we view as "alternative" WERE the mainstream medicine.
Had lunch with my sister (astronomer with the UofT dept of physics and astronomy ) and several astro physicists last year --- lots of chatter about quantum physics and now 11 or 12 dimensions , no longer 3 or 4 . 
Want to expand your mind? have a look at Closer to the Truth Cosmos. Consciousness. God. | Closer to Truth

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## blehmannwa

I think that some of the problems with homeopathic and holistic medicine is the potential for fraud and abuse.


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## paulag1955

blehmannwa said:


> I think that some of the problems with homeopathic and holistic medicine is the potential for fraud and abuse.


Mainstream medical practitioners can commit fraud and abuse. There's always that potential as long as human beings are involved.


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## bite_me

I have provided strong evidence that homeopathy doesn't work. Many of you still don't accept it without good reason. These are the typical defenses of demonstrably incorrect arguments which people cling to. (I really don't know why they do)

1 "Everyone's opinion is equally valid" 
2 "There are things we don't yet know"
3 "B is similar to A so has A's properties"
4 "Quantum physics"
5 "It's a conspiracy"
6 "You have a closed mind"

All these arguments are logical fallacies unless matched with evidence, which nobody has yet offered.

These arguments are the time-honored defenses of indefensible positions. Instead of Explaining why the position is sensible, the defender attempts to derail the conversation into a situation which becomes difficult to refute, due to no actual material being offered to refute.


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## CookieTN

I'm kinda neutral-ish on homeopathy. I know next to nothing about it, so I know no hard evidence for or against it.
That said, if people are in fact experiencing results from it despite any studies to the contrary, to me it kinda implies that somebody's off somewhere. (Whether they are actually experiencing benefits or not is up for debate in my mind, though. I'm just not sure.) 

"There are four homeopathic hospitals in
the UK, located in London, Bristol, Liverpool and Glasgow. These hospitals fall under the
jurisdiction of their respective PCTs. A homeopathic hospital in Tunbridge Wells was
closed in 2009 following a drop in referrals to the hospital and a review by the West Kent
PCT on the commissioning of homeopathy."
I'd be interested in knowing how patients fare at those other hospitals that weren't shut down. Or if they were, it isn't mentioned here. Are they still there, and if so why are they still there if their methods are a complete failure?

I did skim 98% of the article. I haven't read up on homeopathy and to be honest I'm not really wanting to. I just lack the motivation. The article could be correct and does have a compelling argument. Not all studies are going to be the end-all be-all, though. There are studies against a raw diet, too, but most on this forum, myself included, will agree that raw is at least safely doable. Just saying.


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## NancyJ

bite me

Another thread confirmed my suspicions. You are a youth, probably highly intellegent, without enough life experience to rattle your blind faith (and it really is blind) in a certain simplistic ideology that evolved from western scientifc thought. 

Many theories, long accepted as fact, are being challenged (for example, we know basic constructs behind Darwinian theories of evolution appear to be solid, but Lamarck, who we laughed at in MY middle school science class (times have changed), may actually have been onto part of the puzzle-we know evolution is not quite as simple as Darwin postulated). 

Once you get a little further in your studies you really SHOULD explore quantum mechanics because it will rattle you to your foundations! [I can say that because, as a Chemist, I have been through courses in nuclear physics and quantum mechanics at the graduate level and walked away very changed]

If you look at the world with both eyes open, make your OWN choices based on your own beliefs and show a little tolerance for others (without such arrogant disdain and condescension) I think you may find this world to be a little richer and more interesting place.

Take of your blinders and filters as they are not needed to see the truth. One of the truths I have observed over the years is that biological diversity keeps our earth strong-I think the same can be said of human thought.

Die Gedanken sind frei!


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## GSDElsa

bite_me said:


> 45.pdf
> .
> 
> Here is a few examples of the findings;
> 
> 29. The answer to why a medicine can be effective without being efficacious lies with a​phenomenon known as the placebo effect.


So, they found that it's ally psychological. Hey, IMO, if it's not hurting, and people feel better because they think they are taking life-saving syrup provided by the land of every lives forever, then get your diapers out of a ruffle and get over it. 

Why does it matter to YOU if people choose to treat in this manner if it has no ill effects?
​


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## GSDElsa

bite_me said:


> This is not true on both accounts, I have a legitimate interest in GSDs as can be observed with my other posts.
> ​​​​​​​​​​​




You mean the grand total of 4 posts unrealted to this topic that don't really say much at all? ​


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## Anja1Blue

paulag1955 said:


> Mainstream medical practitioners can commit fraud and abuse. There's always that potential as long as human beings are involved.


Exactly. Just as in any other walk of life you have to do your homework before embarking on a relationship with a medical practitioner, of whatever persuasion.. (Creditable Veterinary homeopathic doctors in the USA BTW, have to go through standard veterinary training first.)

There is no way to change this person's mind - he is stuck in his own little groove and trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of time. Steve, in your first post you say you don't have a dog currently (or at least not a GSD) - so just spouting off and copying other peoples' opinions onto a forum where many individuals have YEARS of experience is really not a very good idea. Many of us have seen firsthand the heartbreak of dealing with animals which have been compromised not just by an illness, but from the results of administering modern suppressive drugs - drugs which might alleviate the symptoms but do not cure the disease. No-one is saying that all modern medicine is bad - but it is foolish to say that alternative medicine is a load of bunk, when, as far as I can tell, you have not actually seen it "in action." I could cite many instances where my dogs have benefited from it, but you aren't the person I want to waste my time on debating. There are conditions which homeopathy can't help, we know that. There are conditions where it can be very helpful. The same can be said of modern medicine. Putting it on a level with voodoo and witchcraft only serves to show your ignorance and lack of experience. 
Life is about choices - and smart people don't want to be locked into just one.
________________________________________
Susan

Anja schH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## carmspack

at the very least if it does not work , there have not been any deaths or recalls or list of side effects , like some of the big pharma who (we put the "harm" into pharma) who list suicide , kidney damage, going blind , as side affects for something which stops you from having a stuffed up nose.
Expand you reading . Read about the characters involved in the Evolution of Evolution as it were , Lamarck , and Wallace and Darwin and others . See the race to publish . Publish or perish . Wallace from a poor background, self taught basically hands Darwin the theory. Darwin from an elite , prestigious family publishes and has his name forever attached to evolutionary theory.

Check out the Tv debate, lecture series "Big Ideas" or "The History of Science" . 

Experience the world - go get a reiki treatment !! I was sceptical on that , went for one for an issue on an injury that would not budge . Without any physical touching at all , well the experience was mind-addicting better than chocolate - I'm yours ! and problem gone . 
Not saying you should not be sceptical , absolutely have to keep it real, but you can't dismiss everything as there is so much which we can't fathom yet and instead of the world becoming smaller and more certain , the possibilities are expanding.
keep on growing 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Draugr

The harm comes because while a homeopathic remedy will do _nothing_ to your body, often times something _needs_ to be done.

Dead baby's parents ignored advice: QC

That's the most famous incident (at least as far as I'm aware). A baby died a horrifically painful death due to complications from an easy cured disease.

~

What's the harm in homeopathy?

This site keeps a running tally on people who died because legitimate treatment was not sought in favor of "homeopathic remedies."

~

If someone is going to a homeopath to try and alleviate pain symptoms, then fine, whatever, their loss. It's no skin off my back. But, when you start involving lives, or making major decisions for people/animals who can't make those decisions...I guess I'm a little less inclined to shrug my shoulders and say "whatever." Because "doing nothing" can be harmful in and of itself.


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## crackem

Seriously, this is your defense? Do we even need to bring up the number of those killed by doctors every year? or the number of dead from the CORRECT practice of medicine?? we're not talking malpractice claims or mistakes, we're talking where everything was done the way it should be.

Sometimes doing something is not the answer either. Let people make their own choices for them and their kids or pets.


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## GSDElsa

Draugr said:


> The harm comes because while a homeopathic remedy will do _nothing_ to your body, often times something _needs_ to be done.
> 
> Dead baby's parents ignored advice: QC
> 
> That's the most famous incident (at least as far as I'm aware). A baby died a horrifically painful death due to complications from an easy cured disease.
> 
> ~
> 
> What's the harm in homeopathy?
> 
> This site keeps a running tally on people who died because legitimate treatment was not sought in favor of "homeopathic remedies."
> 
> ~
> 
> If someone is going to a homeopath to try and alleviate pain symptoms, then fine, whatever, their loss. It's no skin off my back. But, when you start involving lives, or making major decisions for people/animals who can't make those decisions...I guess I'm a little less inclined to shrug my shoulders and say "whatever." Because "doing nothing" can be harmful in and of itself.


And just as many people mess up their kids or themselves by overmedicating or incorrectly medicating with pharma-made drugs too. 

Just read up on the birth defeats of Topamax, the "en vogue" drug from migraine prevention. It's prescribed like candy and it seriously messes people up. (just giving this example because I've had personal experience with the drug and an very aware of the published research from the medical and toxicology field on it, there are plenty others).


----------



## Kris10

GSDElsa said:


> And just as many people mess up their kids or themselves by overmedicating or incorrectly medicating with pharma-made drugs too.
> 
> Just read up on the birth defeats of Topamax, the "en vogue" drug from migraine prevention. It's prescribed like candy and it seriously messes people up. (just giving this example because I've had personal experience with the drug and an very aware of the published research from the medical and toxicology field on it, there are plenty others).


So in your research you have determined that the actual numbers are "just as many" or did that just sound good in your post? 
I'm not even posting to disagree with the essence of what you wrote, just pointing out that it is easy to throw around "information" online that may impact what people will believe.


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## Draugr

GSDElsa said:


> And just as many people mess up their kids or themselves by overmedicating or incorrectly medicating with pharma-made drugs too.
> 
> Just read up on the birth defeats of Topamax, the "en vogue" drug from migraine prevention. It's prescribed like candy and it seriously messes people up. (just giving this example because I've had personal experience with the drug and an very aware of the published research from the medical and toxicology field on it, there are plenty others).


I'm not sure why any of that is relevant. Abuse of pharmaceuticals isn't the topic, here.

I'm also unsure why that excuses the deaths "properly practiced" homeopathy has under its name, just because "some other system does bad things too."

I'd rather take my half-percent chance of severe side effects from *properly used* pharmaceuticals, and it's rational expectation of a cure, or at least alleviation, versus trying something which has a 0% chance of worsening my condition and a 0% chance of bettering my condition. In the meantime, while I'm wasting time on that...whatever condition I have, will probably worsen.

If we take homeopathy to a reductio ad absurdum, simply drinking a glass of well water should cure any ailment you have - it's a practically infinitely diluted solution (more dilutions = more potency, according to homeopathic law) of anything those water molecules have come into contact with for as long as this planet has had a water cycle.

Anyway, toodle-oo for now. Need to make a trip into town. Have fun!


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## NancyJ

Thing is you CAN take your allopathic pathway and, guess what, insurance will pay for it. We will even take away risk and liability for certain problems caused by immunizations etc............

So who worry about the choices others want to make? Most of this is outside the insurance system and if people feel strongly enough to make their own choices, let them.


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## crackem

it doesn't excuse anything, it just illustrates that some people would like to have choices. Some people's choices are different than yours. Some people have made choices they believe are every bit as valid as your's.

It also illustrates that both choices, as with all choices, sometimes don't work out like we would like them too. People die for all sorts of reasons, just like they are helped.

I know for myself, when I have a hangover, I might take an asprin. If I have cancer, i'm eating veggies, praying to a God i'm not sure even exists and doing sun dances long before I'll ever let someone give me chemo drugs. I don't care how irrational someone thinks I am.

and if I live 6 weeks by doing a dance to the sun god and I didn't have to take chemo drugs, it worked for me, and those that don't agree can suck it


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## GSDElsa

Draugr said:


> I'm not sure why any of that is relevant. Abuse of pharmaceuticals isn't the topic, here.


You kind of made it the topic saying the reason that people should avoid homeopathy is because when doing so they are avoiding "proper" care. The point is, idiots exist and will abuse or misuse anything out there. It's hardly the "norm" for people to let their children die because of not getting proper medical treatment. We could come up with as many examples of people getting NO medical care and making their child die, a pharma drug being misused killing a child, etc. 

Point being--don't be STUPID and there is nothing wrong with using homeopathic remedies. It's called common sense.

I really don't think anyone is talking about curing cancer??


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## carmspack

check your statistics -- when hospitals go on strike the death rate goes down.
Many european medical practices are intergrative - using conventional allopathic and complementary alternative. That is the best of both worlds. Western medicine is exceptional at diagnosis and surgery , not so much the holistic needs of body and spirit and wholeness of the body not as a liver that needs help or an isolated problem, but a connected integrated whole.

Carmen


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## GSDElsa

Kris10 said:


> So in your research you have determined that the actual numbers are "just as many" or did that just sound good in your post?
> I'm not even posting to disagree with the essence of what you wrote, just pointing out that it is easy to throw around "information" online that may impact what people will believe.


I was actually being nice to the pharama industry, I think. Are you that naive that you do not realize that there is a TON of stuff on the market that has horrible side effects or is mis-prescribed all the time? 

I'm not against Western medicine, for Easter or homeopathic or anything else. There are problems with all. But to say "OMG you CANNOT try homeopathic remedies because you are ignoring getting REAL treatment!" is just bizarre. *Any* drug, diluation, WHATEVER has a risk when misused. Homeopathic or otherwise.


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## NancyJ

Many years ago I read a book called Spiritual Midwifery. Hey I am on oldie. Anyway - the deathrate went up when male doctors took over childbirth! Somehow all the native wisdom midwives had concerning birthing babies was tossed aside and the "doctors" would ram their hands up in the women (often after dissecting corpses)

I look at the expensive concoctions my post stroke mother takes. No less than 25 drugs and many drugs are to counteract other drugs, most of which were tested on college age males during drug studies (we had friends in college who made good money being drug guinea pigs)...had it not been for a bumbling doctor I honestly wonder if she would have had a stroke in the first place (it was a-fib plus septal defect, not cholesterol/lifestyle.


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## UConnGSD

Okay, I found the first page most entertaining but didn't have the time to read through all pages. FWIW, I have an anecdotal evidence where homeopathy made a world of difference to me. So I thought I would share. 

At around the time when I was in 3rd grade, I started experiencing acute ear ache and progressive hearing loss over a period of roughly one year. Parents went from pillar to post searching for an answer -- all from good, conventional allopathic doctors, of course. No help there, the problem got worse over time. I remember screaming in agony in my parents' car, I had fainted from ear ache one time, my grades were suffering because I couldn't hear the teacher very well and being a child, I didn't communicate this to parents and teachers. All allopathic doctors agreed that there were some perforations in my eardrum which would need to be operated on and that those perforations were the root cause of my problem. My mother being a leery of a major operation so close to the brain, decided to consult a highly recommended homeopath as an n-th opinion, at that point. This homeopath used to concoct his own remedies. I don't know what remedy he administered to me but in TWO doses, he cured me for good. Over a year's worth of suffering was brought to a halt and my normal hearing was restored. It has never troubled me again.

There are ailments for which homeopathy works almost miraculously. So to the people who say they don't believe it, well, it's your choice but in my humble opinion, homeopathy doesn't need your belief in order for it to work. My own sister is an allopathic doctor and growing up our house was transformed into a veritable pharmacy because of the deluge of allopathic medicines the pharma companies showered upon her. I can tell you this, that even to this day, there are certain ailments for which she herself will go to a good homeopathician (granted they are hard to find) than rely on your conventional medicines. I know at least two other "regular" doctors within our family & friend circle who have decades-long well-established practices who do not hesitate to consult nor do they scorn the practice of homeopathy. That ought to tell you something.


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## UConnGSD

And by the way, research studies are a dime a dozen (right now, almost 100% of my work involves research anyway but I hold no illusions or grandiose sense of purity about my line of work). I will say one thing about many of these studies -- follow the money. If you think that animal health research is the only area tainted by the Pedigrees and Purinas of our world, I have only one response for you, which is :spittingcoffee:


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## ozzymama

I agree with Nancy, and there are lots of studies out there debunking how women labor in North America and indicating as well as urging people to change it. I won't go with a traditional doctor next time I have a child. I sure as heck will NOT have an epidural. I'll be calling in a midwife as soon as the stick shows a positive.


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## NancyJ

I like the idea of anectodal experiences; I think mine was pretty objective.

I was in early pregnancy with my first child when I started developed severe abdominal pain with large blood clots in my urine. We thought it was a miscarraige but it was my one (only one I ever had) kidney stone. A large one. We had gone to the hospital.

They were giving me massive fluids, a warning that they would probably have to do lithotripsy because it was a type that would not dissolve and a filter to filter all my urine. That day a friend came over and brought me some homeopathic remedy for stones. I took it figuring you know, the dilution - its just water - whatever. And the next day when they checked me for the stone, it was gone. completely gone. 

They said I must have missed the filter but that would have been pretty hard to do because of how it sat on the seat, plus come on us women learn how to pee in a stinking dixie cup without getting our hands wet, and I think, given the size, I would have felt it pass.......So I was pretty blown away by the whole experience.


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## UConnGSD

Yes! Kidney stones is another area where I have heard cases of homeopathy working extremely well.


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## bite_me

Great, this topic has now been successfully derailed into a criticism of western medicine. I see many have provided examples of personal success, and I understand how they then feel obliged to sing the praises. 
The point is, if it worked for you, why doesn't it work for the majority? If this was the case it would be widely distributed by the greedy and evil drug barons. Imagine the profits that could be made prescribing and selling little bottles of water. 

The point about hospitals going on strike; Many risky surgeries and treatments would have not been performed, leading to a lower death rate. The patients knowingly take this risk as surviving the treatment will greatly prolong their lives.
You said "check your statistics" they aren't mine they are yours, and you didn't provide them and neither has anybody else.

The example about midwifery has 0 to do with homeopathy, as it sounds like there is a viable explanation.
(A is like B so A has B's properties)= fallacy.

"The statistics are corrupted"
The statistics I provided are official findings AFTER homeopathy had been blindly adopted by the British Govt. They invested millions into the "hospitals" only to discover they had been wrong the entire time. Surely if the data was to be corrupted it would SUPPORT homeopathy in order to save face.


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## bite_me

Another fallacy used here; the 'ad hominem' which is when the person presenting the argument is attacked on their merits, rather than the merits of their argument. = Fallacy


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## Jack's Dad

bite_me said:


> The point is, if it worked for you, why doesn't it work for the majority? [QUOTE
> 
> Sorry but the above is like saying if one person dies from a bee sting why don't the majority of those stung by a bee die. Also if you don't like homeopathy or anything else don't do it.
> Another weird thread.


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## bite_me

Ok so a bee sting kills one in 10,000. Homeopathys "cure" rate would seem to be similar. My analogy; An assassin using a bee sting to kill is like a doctor using homeopathy to cure. Thanks for supporting my case


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## NancyJ

Your case is irrelevant.

Wasted enough time on it. Makes no difference to me. It might be worth a good argument IF I lived in a society where insurance money paid for homeopathic remedies but I do not.


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## doggiedad

holistic, homeopathic, traditional, vibes, candles,
mantras, religion, agnostic, devil worship, love , hate,
German Shepherds, mix breeds, forums, white, black,
up, down, etc., sometimes some of it works sometimes it doesn't.


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## UConnGSD

So, bite_me, some of us are "obliged to sing praises" huh? We are not "obliged" to do anything of that sort. Some of us have shared our own real life experiences here and just because it doesn't fit your POV doesn't diminish my belief in this modality. You have successfully convinced yourself that homeopathy doesn't work. And I am convinced that regardless of what is said here, you will not change your position. Which is totally fine. It is not my job to change your mind. In fact, I would view that as a waste of my time. To each his own. What I don't get is this... why this obsession with wanting everyone to go along with your POV? To me, that reeks of insecurity. It is not an all-or-nothing approach that people are suggesting over here. Sometimes, we just need to try different things to find the one that works for us. Just because something is not widely accepted or not "universally fool-proof 100% guaranteed successful every single time it is used", doesn't automatically mean it's useless. You might feel comfortable putting everything in the hands of allopathic doctors and well-known pharma companies. Good for you! Great! You want to cross off homeopathy from your list of medical options -- wonderful! Your choice! So be it! But that doesn't mean that others MUST feel that way. Know this though... just as you view homeopathy as ignorance, people (like me) view your stubbornness regarding this issue as yet another shade of ignorance. So bite me!

Doggiedad, loved your post!!!


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## bite_me

I want you proponents to read this very carefully, as it will be my last post on the issue.

"Each to their own" doesn't work. It makes no sense. I might think singing along to Elvis is critical for my health. It doesn't make my opinion equally valid.

If INDEPENDANT studies showed that singing along to Elvis had no effect on health, I could say "Oh well I don't trust that study" This doesn't take away any merit to the study, or the findings. It would just make me ignorant and arrogant.

If i sing along to Elvis daily, and an ailment of mine disappears, I could well put that down to the singing, but obviously unless this works for others in a similar circumstance, we could put this down to hundreds of other factors. (Maybe because I started stirring my water?) This is still not a sensible position.

Scientific medicine WORKS. There are obviously circumstances where errors are made causing side-effects and worse. This isn't the medicines fault. It is the practitioners. Mistakes are made but the payoff is enormous.
We now live on average nearly twice as long because of this medicine.

IF YOU ATTEMPT TO CURE YOUR DOG WITH HOMEOPATHY, YOU PROLONG ITS SUFFERING, BECAUSE HOMOPATHY DOES NOT AND WILL NOT EVER WORK.

IF ANYONE CAN PROVIDE AN INDEPENDANT STUDY (WITH A CONTROL GROUP ASSIGNED A PLACEBO) THAT PROVES A LINK WITH GOOD HEALTH AND HOMEOPATHY, PROVIDE IT PLEASE. 

I have done this, why can't any of you? Oh that's right, because the studies might disagree with your opinion, the same thing many of you accuse me of. 

There are things we don't know, medicine is not perfect, but homeopathy isn't mystical or any other romantic quality. It doesn't work. It's been proven many times. There are still mysteries within the human body, but homeopathy has 0 answers. It's just ****ing water.


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## CookieTN

My question is, how much anecdotal evidence is there for homeopathy? Dangit, you've got my curiosity up. xD


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## carmspack

just because it is interesting Alternative Medicine and Why We Are Proud Not To Be "Scientific"

here is a book that I have been reading recommended to me by my friend who is a conventional dr of veterinary medicine (U of Guelph) , who went back to school and is also a holistic vet. She has two family members who are also DVM's (U of Guelph) . She was reading
"The Secret History of the War on Cancer" by Devra Davies. Every week we met she would be itching to talk about it , so instead of waiting for her to finish reading it I went out and bought a copy for myself. I see what got her so animated.
Well it reads like a medical thriller , crime thriller , detective novel --- eye opening .

xxx eat your vegetables BEFORE you get cancer - be proactive for health, prevention is key.

Spent the afternoon with the herbalist down at Herbies Herbs for those that know Toronto. There's an experience . Or go to Thuna's apothecary talk to the master herbalist there . This is where chemistry and medicine began.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa

bite_me said:


> . This isn't the medicines fault. It is the practitioners. Mistakes are made but the payoff is enormous.
> 
> .


So it isn't homeopathy's fault either...it's the people that misuse it.

The only people who think that the "mistakes" made during clinical trials or developing a drug are "worth the payoff" are the people with did not have the adverse affect or the Dr's presecribing it who really don't care.


Again, no one is saying that Western medicine isn't GOOD and the homeopathy should cure all. But they BOTH have a place in society, and it's just stupid to argue and obsess over it's use.

Let me guess. You are either an undergrad getting ready to go into med school or you are a first year med student who just had a professor who lectued about the evils of alternative medicine.


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## Konotashi

Someone came into Walgreens today and this guy's daughter was looking at the scorpion lollipops that were sitting on the counter. He started telling me about how his mom has cancer, and they go to Cuba for the medicine, which includes scorpions. He told me about a lot of other remedial things that used stuff like snake parts and that stuff, and that they ALWAYS go down there because it's free (the 'medicines' I mean), and it works. 

I don't think they'd go to Cuba several times a year for remedies that don't work.


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## UConnGSD

bite_me said:


> IF YOU ATTEMPT TO CURE YOUR DOG WITH HOMEOPATHY, YOU PROLONG ITS SUFFERING, BECAUSE HOMOPATHY DOES NOT AND WILL NOT EVER WORK.


Then tell me, oh wise one, if allopathic doctors do not have a viable solution for a particular disease and have basically shrugged their shoulders and washed their hands off, what are you going to do? Put your dog to sleep? Blindly follow their view that nothing can be done and just accept their prognosis and try nothing else? Is that it? Now that's responsible dog-ownership


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## GSDElsa

Konotashi said:


> Someone came into Walgreens today and this guy's daughter was looking at the scorpion lollipops that were sitting on the counter. He started telling me about how his mom has cancer, and they go to Cuba for the medicine, which includes scorpions. He told me about a lot of other remedial things that used stuff like snake parts and that stuff, and that they ALWAYS go down there because it's free (the 'medicines' I mean), and it works.
> 
> I don't think they'd go to Cuba several times a year for remedies that don't work.


Well, I think this person was giving you a load of pooey on their travel to Cuba. Look up the license restrictions for travel there. I don't believe going for "scorpion medical treatment" is on the list. :crazy:


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## Anja1Blue

UConnGSD said:


> Then tell me, oh wise one, if allopathic doctors do not have a viable solution for a particular disease and have basically shrugged their shoulders and washed their hands off, what are you going to do? Put your dog to sleep? Blindly follow their view that nothing can be done and just accept their prognosis and try nothing else? Is that it? Now that's responsible dog-ownership


He doesn't own a dog - that's the kicker. No experience of GSD ownership whatsoever. At least that's what his first post implies. And BTW Steve, if you really have posted for the last time on this subject THANK YOU. Now go out, get a dog, and start posting from real life, not from someone else's thesis. You have the fanatacism of the disciple, so yes, I'd guess you are about 18-21 years old.
_______________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Samba

While often used to explain success with treatments that have no scientific, the " placebo effect" is something I find VERY interesting in all this! It often gets tossed out quickly and then aside in discussions as part of the explanation of why a substance that was not supposed to be effective actually was! That always makes me say, WOW! What about that placebo effect thing! Amazing, powerful.

The placebo effect can work on a patient who can not talk or understand the idea that a treatment is expected to have a positive action! It has been found that the belief on the part of the person administering the treatment is enough to cause the placebo effect.

What is up with that? Powerful "medicine" when there is no "real" medication!


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## Kris10

GSDElsa said:


> I was actually being nice to the pharama industry, I think. Are you that naive that you do not realize that there is a TON of stuff on the market that has horrible side effects or is mis-prescribed all the time?
> 
> I'm not against Western medicine, for Easter or homeopathic or anything else. There are problems with all. But to say "OMG you CANNOT try homeopathic remedies because you are ignoring getting REAL treatment!" is just bizarre. *Any* drug, diluation, WHATEVER has a risk when misused. Homeopathic or otherwise.


Again, I was pointing out the language you used, stating there were "just as many..." I don't believe I am naive about the possible side effects of approved meds and I didn't address that in my post so I am puzzled as to why you are "putting words in my mouth". So you are saying in your "research" that not only are the numbers "just as many", but more? 

So how did you conduct your research? Did you do some googling and find a forum like this one where people were throwing around some vague made up numbers? 

There was a thread recently about how many people were coming on here asking for help with their GSD's aggression. Now, do we think that there is necessarily an increase in such aggression problems- or is it because people generally seek a forum like this in the first place because they are having a problem? 

Believe me, I am no fan of big pharma. It is no secret that this is a high profit seeking industry, but good does come out of it in the meds that save lives or extend them. And at least there is oversight there. There are actual scientific studies done and results you can see. 

I actually have no problem with trying different remedies. Doing _nothing_ is sometimes the best treatment actually. Just time. I will tell you that in my experience there are people who will walk out of the doctor's office and complain that "the doc did nothing" because they didn't get an RX. They don't want to hear "gargle with salt water" or be shown exercises, or be recommended a diet. So everyone's expectations are different!


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## GSDElsa

Kris10 said:


> Again, I was pointing out the language you used, stating there were "just as many..." I don't believe I am naive about the possible side effects of approved meds and I didn't address that in my post so I am puzzled as to why you are "putting words in my mouth". So you are saying in your "research" that not only are the numbers "just as many", but more?
> 
> So how did you conduct your research? Did you do some googling and find a forum like this one where people were throwing around some vague made up numbers?
> 
> There was a thread recently about how many people were coming on here asking for help with their GSD's aggression. Now, do we think that there is necessarily an increase in such aggression problems- or is it because people generally seek a forum like this in the first place because they are having a problem?
> 
> Believe me, I am no fan of big pharma. It is no secret that this is a high profit seeking industry, but good does come out of it in the meds that save lives or extend them. And at least there is oversight there. There are actual scientific studies done and results you can see.
> 
> I actually have no problem with trying different remedies. Doing _nothing_ is sometimes the best treatment actually. Just time. I will tell you that in my experience there are people who will walk out of the doctor's office and complain that "the doc did nothing" because they didn't get an RX. They don't want to hear "gargle with salt water" or be shown exercises, or be recommended a diet. So everyone's expectations are different!


 
I believe that I specifically said I am not pro or con any type of medicine people choose? But people who bash alternative medicines and declare that pharma drugs are the only things that should ever be used because of "proven results" are full of it.

As I said...just as many was a nice way of saying "nowhere near as many." Subscribe to a few tox journals and research drug recalls and see for yourself. I'm not really out to prove a point other than people are hopelessly ignorant when the only argument they can come up with for not doing homeopathic remedies is a few absolutely insane people who got their child hurt or killed by not giving them proper medical care. That has nothing to do with the MEDICINE administered (or lack thereof), but rather the idiot parents.

I'll say it again...it had nothing to do with pro or con any specific type of medicine. There is a place for all types. I personally have some health issues that are non-life threatening, but debilitating and have been through a zillion prescription and non prescription drugs. Some of the major issues that have been discovered with some of these drugs after I had been taking them for some time are downright scary....both from a side effect stand-point as well as "real time" impairment. I have never tried homeopathic remedies for these problems, but in hindsight the damage and potential damage (eeek-heaven forbid I would have gotten pregnant on these drugs!!!!!!) to my body was not worth it.

If I tried homeopathic and my symptoms got better--who cares if it's placebo or it really works? As far as any journals I've read, people don't get arrested for DWI while taking these and they don't cause major birth defects. If I had to do it over again, I'll take the junk science dissolved in water.

And speaking of putting words in another's mouth...I never referred my own "research."


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## UConnGSD

Anja1Blue said:


> He doesn't own a dog - that's the kicker.


Aha! Very illuminating! Reality hasn't set in yet, I see.


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## Samba

I personally go for flower essences. 

That placebo effect speaks to something very powerful doesn't it?

Call it quantum physics or what have you, the gound that all comes from is more interesting to me than what a particular group consciousness has created the predominant "reality". Now, to go think up a quantum particle. Ever noticed that first a quantum particle is thought of in theory and then it is found! I have a hard time fitting into a particular construct. Allopathic care is too narrow for me to embrace as the only construct with merit.


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## LisaT

arycrest said:


> Could you please explain the difference for me ... I always use the two terms interchangeably and have really never known what the difference is.


Briefly, holistic methods are methods that treat the body as a whole, the being in its entirety, rather than by pieces and just treating symptoms. For example, red eyes. Allopathic medicine might prescribe eye drops, whereas, say, in Traditional Chinese Medicine, they will look for the cause of the red eyes and try to address the cause by balancing the body, typically with herbs and the properties of foods, and often using acupuncture as an adjunct therapy. (Acupuncture can be used very holistically, or very allopathically.)

Homeopathy is a specific kind of holistic therapy, so it's a very very small portion of the holistic field. It uses energy to make energetic changes in the body. With the right practitioner, it's very effective, and is just about the only thing that addresses long term vaccine damage. It can also be used in a holistic or allopathic manner. For example, I have a homeopathic remedy that works great on my stuffy nose, but using it doesn't fix why my nose is stuffy, so I have to use it whenever my nose gets stuffy, rather than providing a permanent cure for the stuffy nose.

I find that folks that argue so vehemently against these some of these things are those that aren't comfortable stepping out of their box.

As for the placebo effect, that can be manipulated very easily:

What's In Your Placebo? | Mother Jones

Study in Annals of Internal Medicine Shows Placebo Ingredients Aren't Disclosed - Health Blog - WSJ

Drug Trials: The Hidden Truth About Placebo Testing

The Poor Misunderstood Placebo


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## BowWowMeow

Oh dear, the arrogance of youth. :rolleyes2:

In all my years of reading the boards and getting phone calls and emails about dog and cat health problems, I never once recall any animal having an adverse reaction to a homeopathic remedy OR refusing their animal other medical treatment in favor of homeopathy. 

However, I can't even count on the hands, toes and paws of everyone in the room right now how many people's animals have been harmed (sometimes irrevocably) by allopathic drugs, vaccines and flea and tick meds.


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## CookieTN

When I told my dad about this discussion he pointed out that homeopathy uses pretty much the same principle as vaccinations. I think this is a good point.

I do agree with whoever said that there's more truth to holistic treatments than homeopathic ones. I'm open to homeopathy, though, I guess.


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## Draugr

CookieTN said:


> When I told my dad about this discussion he pointed out that homeopathy uses pretty much the same principle as vaccinations. I think this is a good point.


Vaccines use a modified, usually killed version of a disease virus to trick the immune system into creating antibodies against that disease. It's working with the immune system, to sort of "program" it into your body.

A homeopathic remedy says "hey, cayenne peppers make you hot...and a fever makes you hot too, right? They must be able to cure a fever! Let's dilute it to the point where all we have left is water!"

Now, there are homeopathic _nosodes_ which are essentially extremely primitive vaccines - what we were using back when vaccinations were first invented, essentially. There's plenty of legitimacy behind why those would work (presuming it is not diluted down to the point of uselessness) but I would question their safety if not.


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## CookieTN

Depends upon the remedy I would imagine. I really don't know much about it, TBH. Not interested in learning more unless I was going to consider trying one.


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## BowWowMeow

Case in point:

I used a homeopathic remedy for my 19 yo cat (who had diarrhea) yesterday. Today she is much better. 

There is a dog on the other board with a serious health crisis because his vaccinations triggered an autoimmune reaction. 

And a friend just told me about her colleague who had to put both of her dogs down today after they had an extreme reaction to their flea and tick meds. 

So if you're REALLY worried about something harming our animals maybe you had better look elsewhere. Big pharma is where I would start...


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## CookieTN

Garlic powder is supposed to be a good alternative to flea meds. I tried using it on my dogs, but it didn't work for us. Treader is actually allergic to the fricking fleas, apparently. Got himself a staph and yeast infection out of the deal last year. I believe we do live in an area loaded with fleas and other annoying insects. (And the dang fleas are building an immunity up to "regular" flea meds, so during the worst of the summer we need to buy Comfortis now...-_-)
I know of others who claim to have had success with it, though.


----------



## JPF

BowWowMeow said:


> Case in point:
> 
> I used a homeopathic remedy for my 19 yo cat (who had diarrhea) yesterday. Today she is much better.
> 
> There is a dog on the other board with a serious health crisis because his vaccinations triggered an autoimmune reaction.
> 
> And a friend just told me about her colleague who had to put both of her dogs down today after they had an extreme reaction to their flea and tick meds.
> 
> So if you're REALLY worried about something harming our animals maybe you had better look elsewhere. Big pharma is where I would start...


thats really not a case in point (about your cat). you have really no idea what caused the diarrhea to go away. It could have gone away on its on without the intervention. 

and for every dog with a serious reaction to vaccines there are millions more that have been saved from horrible diseases BECAUSE of vaccines. 

You lose a lot of credibility with most when you start with the whole "vaccines caused this" talk. Its for the most part ridiculous and moreover dangerous to try to advise people to skip vaccines. You put every responsible dog owner at risk by not vaccinating.


----------



## JPF

BowWowMeow said:


> Oh dear, the arrogance of youth. :rolleyes2:
> 
> In all my years of reading the boards and getting phone calls and emails about dog and cat health problems, I never once recall any animal having an adverse reaction to a homeopathic remedy OR refusing their animal other medical treatment in favor of homeopathy.
> 
> However, I can't even count on the hands, toes and paws of everyone in the room right now how many people's animals have been harmed (sometimes irrevocably) by allopathic drugs, vaccines and flea and tick meds.


I would say that by using a unproven homeopathic "remedy" you are harming your dog if its actually sick. You are denying it a proven medicine to get it better. That is the ultimate arrogance.


----------



## JPF

bite_me said:


> I want you proponents to read this very carefully, as it will be my last post on the issue.
> 
> "Each to their own" doesn't work. It makes no sense. I might think singing along to Elvis is critical for my health. It doesn't make my opinion equally valid.
> 
> If INDEPENDANT studies showed that singing along to Elvis had no effect on health, I could say "Oh well I don't trust that study" This doesn't take away any merit to the study, or the findings. It would just make me ignorant and arrogant.
> 
> If i sing along to Elvis daily, and an ailment of mine disappears, I could well put that down to the singing, but obviously unless this works for others in a similar circumstance, we could put this down to hundreds of other factors. (Maybe because I started stirring my water?) This is still not a sensible position.
> 
> Scientific medicine WORKS. There are obviously circumstances where errors are made causing side-effects and worse. This isn't the medicines fault. It is the practitioners. Mistakes are made but the payoff is enormous.
> We now live on average nearly twice as long because of this medicine.
> 
> IF YOU ATTEMPT TO CURE YOUR DOG WITH HOMEOPATHY, YOU PROLONG ITS SUFFERING, BECAUSE HOMOPATHY DOES NOT AND WILL NOT EVER WORK.
> 
> IF ANYONE CAN PROVIDE AN INDEPENDANT STUDY (WITH A CONTROL GROUP ASSIGNED A PLACEBO) THAT PROVES A LINK WITH GOOD HEALTH AND HOMEOPATHY, PROVIDE IT PLEASE.
> 
> I have done this, why can't any of you? Oh that's right, because the studies might disagree with your opinion, the same thing many of you accuse me of.
> 
> There are things we don't know, medicine is not perfect, but homeopathy isn't mystical or any other romantic quality. It doesn't work. It's been proven many times. There are still mysteries within the human body, but homeopathy has 0 answers. It's just ****ing water.


the most well reasoned post so far...sorry to every who disagrees. Find some scientific evidence to the contrary and then your homeopathic medicine is no longer homeopathic and then just becomes medicine. No one provided any proof, and there is a reason


----------



## CookieTN

My questions about those homeopathic hospitals and actual data on successes weren't answered, either.

Homeopathy is something I'd probably look into if I got cancer or something and would prefer not to go through chemo therapy. (Perhaps that is a bad example, though. Just saying that it's something I'd *consider* when I feel that western medicine may not be the best choice.) But more likely I'd go holistic. My dad got skin cancer back in 2001 and was able to cure it using natural cures.
Even if it doesn't sound like it, I'm still neutral. But until I find a reason not to, I lean toward being open to it.


----------



## JPF

crackem said:


> it doesn't excuse anything, it just illustrates that some people would like to have choices. Some people's choices are different than yours. Some people have made choices they believe are every bit as valid as your's.
> 
> It also illustrates that both choices, as with all choices, sometimes don't work out like we would like them too. People die for all sorts of reasons, just like they are helped.
> 
> I know for myself, when I have a hangover, I might take an asprin. If I have cancer, i'm eating veggies, praying to a God i'm not sure even exists and doing sun dances long before I'll ever let someone give me chemo drugs. I don't care how irrational someone thinks I am.
> 
> and if I live 6 weeks by doing a dance to the sun god and I didn't have to take chemo drugs, it worked for me, and those that don't agree can suck it


except you are making choices for your dog who has no say in the matter but if he did would probably be more rational and decide to take his chances with a medicine that has a chance of helping


----------



## CookieTN

Now you're just taunting people. Nice.


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## JPF

CookieTN said:


> Now you're just taunting people. Nice.


taunting? No, just pointing out the problem with making a decision on a useless "cure" for a creature who has no say in the matter. I have no problem with someone using it on themselves. To each their own I say. But if they are using it on kids or animals who have no choice in the matter then yes I say it is unethical and in some cases (notice: some) criminal.


----------



## CookieTN

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I just don't see the need to condemn that myself. I'm mean, if you're all "I'm going to use this no matter what and screw the very possibility of modern medicine", then yeah, but if they are actually making informed decisions about it...


----------



## JPF

CookieTN said:


> Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. I just don't see the need to condemn that myself. I'm mean, if you're all "I'm going to use this no matter what and screw the very possibility of modern medicine", then yeah, but if they are actually making informed decisions about it...


my problem with this whole debate is this: there is no informed decision to go with homeopathy. It wouldn't be called homeopathy if there was proof it worked. Show us proof and it will become accepted medicine, its as simple as that. 

I think this debate has real consequences in real life such as the refusal of some parents to get their kids vaccinated, and more to the point (here at least) their dogs. They, by their actions, put responsible people needlessly at risk. Look no further than whooping cough reemerging recently in california. 

This is why people like me get so animated about the topic.


----------



## CookieTN

I do feel that there is some controversy in the medical industry. I'm not above suspecting some things of not being accepted by reason of personal gain. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with homeopathy (I really don't know), or that the whole western medicinal system is corrupt. I'm thinking more of other things like natural cures that my family, mostly my dad, has some amount of familiarity with.

And I'm afraid of over-vaccinating, but I do believe overall it's done more good than harm.
Heh, goodness knows I'm not much for real debating on this topic. It's not my area of knowledge.


----------



## crackem

JPF said:


> my problem with this whole debate is this: there is no informed decision to go with homeopathy. It wouldn't be called homeopathy if there was proof it worked. Show us proof and it will become accepted medicine, its as simple as that.
> 
> I think this debate has real consequences in real life such as the refusal of some parents to get their kids vaccinated, and more to the point (here at least) their dogs. They, by their actions, put responsible people needlessly at risk. Look no further than whooping cough reemerging recently in california.
> 
> This is why people like me get so animated about the topic.


Tell this to my friends 30 year old cousin, mother of 2, active triathelete and active her entire life. She was mandated as her job as a nurse to get the flu shot with H1N1 2 years ago and 2 days later was on life support at the University of Iowa Hospitals. 

What a great way to spend thanksgiving, thinking your mother, wife, daughter, is going to die from anaphylactic shock from a flu shot. Think they're harmless??? Think again. If you want to subject yourself to that and your family fine, but when you start thinking everyone else MUST do what you think???? Look in the mirror when you say things like this


> They, by their actions, put responsible people needlessly at risk.



Whooping cough???? You don't know much about this do you? You listen to the Nancy Snidermans of the world and that's how you get your health info isn't it? It would probably shock you to know that the majority of cases come from the vaccinated population, in some communities over 80% of the cases are among those considered "fully vaccinated".


----------



## UConnGSD

JPF said:


> thats really not a case in point (about your cat). you have really no idea what caused the diarrhea to go away. It could have gone away on its on without the intervention.


<sarcasm> I love it when the counter-argument for a case where homeopathy worked is one of "well, you don't really know that homeopathy was really the thing that cured the diarrhea", yet if it were a big-pharma drug, then the "proven" medicine worked it's charm. </sarcasm>


----------



## Anja1Blue

I think JPF is closely related to bite me (might even BE bite me) - they sound a lot alike :laugh: Do you live in NZ JPF?
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


----------



## arycrest

LisaT said:


> Briefly, holistic methods are methods that treat the body as a whole, the being in its entirety, rather than by pieces and just treating symptoms. For example, red eyes. Allopathic medicine might prescribe eye drops, whereas, say, in Traditional Chinese Medicine, they will look for the cause of the red eyes and try to address the cause by balancing the body, typically with herbs and the properties of foods, and often using acupuncture as an adjunct therapy. (Acupuncture can be used very holistically, or very allopathically.)
> 
> Homeopathy is a specific kind of holistic therapy, so it's a very very small portion of the holistic field. It uses energy to make energetic changes in the body. With the right practitioner, it's very effective, and is just about the only thing that addresses long term vaccine damage. It can also be used in a holistic or allopathic manner. For example, I have a homeopathic remedy that works great on my stuffy nose, but using it doesn't fix why my nose is stuffy, so I have to use it whenever my nose gets stuffy, rather than providing a permanent cure for the stuffy nose.
> 
> I find that folks that argue so vehemently against these some of these things are those that aren't comfortable stepping out of their box.
> 
> As for the placebo effect, that can be manipulated very easily:
> 
> What's In Your Placebo? | Mother Jones
> 
> Study in Annals of Internal Medicine Shows Placebo Ingredients Aren't Disclosed - Health Blog - WSJ
> 
> Drug Trials: The Hidden Truth About Placebo Testing
> 
> The Poor Misunderstood Placebo


Thanks Lisa,  I should have asked you a long time ago to explain it to me. So I guess the vet I took Ringer to who used the Bowen Massage method and examined him with a dangling crystal would be considered a homeopathic vet?


----------



## JPF

Anja1Blue said:


> I think JPF is closely related to bite me (might even BE bite me) - they sound a lot alike :laugh: Do you live in NZ JPF?
> ____________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> Anja SchH3 GSD
> Conor GSD
> Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


nope...california. bite me and myself just have similar disdain for people being manipulated to waste money on things that don't work


----------



## JPF

crackem said:


> Tell this to my friends 30 year old cousin, mother of 2, active triathelete and active her entire life. She was mandated as her job as a nurse to get the flu shot with H1N1 2 years ago and 2 days later was on life support at the University of Iowa Hospitals.
> 
> What a great way to spend thanksgiving, thinking your mother, wife, daughter, is going to die from anaphylactic shock from a flu shot. Think they're harmless??? Think again. If you want to subject yourself to that and your family fine, but when you start thinking everyone else MUST do what you think???? Look in the mirror when you say things like this
> 
> 
> Whooping cough???? You don't know much about this do you? You listen to the Nancy Snidermans of the world and that's how you get your health info isn't it? It would probably shock you to know that the majority of cases come from the vaccinated population, in some communities over 80% of the cases are among those considered "fully vaccinated".


Listen to the recent NPR story about the reemergence of whooping cough and then comment. Don't know who snidermans is but she must be intelligent if you have disdain for her

I have never said that vaccines are cannot cause trouble. Of course they can. They warn you every time you get one. But to rail against vaccines is the current fad that is endangering lives. Vaccines have saved more lives than I can count. Try bringing you anti vaccine logic to africa where countless people die every day because they don't have access to them. it is a position unique to countries where the fact that a majority of people are vaccinated can only say this.


----------



## JPF

UConnGSD said:


> <sarcasm> I love it when the counter-argument for a case where homeopathy worked is one of "well, you don't really know that homeopathy was really the thing that cured the diarrhea", yet if it were a big-pharma drug, then the "proven" medicine worked it's charm. </sarcasm>


thats not the counter argument if you read my post clearly. Its show me some scientific study where it worked and then we can talk. anecdotes are not a substitute for real studies.


----------



## BowWowMeow

JPF-

I noticed you used pumpkin when transitioning foods with Enzo. Wasn't that dangerous for him? And why did you use pumpkin--there is no scientific proof that it works. If you were worried about diarrhea why not use a "proven" medicine? 

Your ignorance and arrogance shine right through...find me ONE post on this board where someone used a homeopathic remedy in lieu of a "proven" allopathic medicine and harmed their dog (or cat). I can find you HUNDREDS (and probably thousands if I did enough searching) of posts on this board where dogs (and cats) have had reactions to "proven" allopathic medicine. 

Also, this is not a conversation about children. This is about animals. I have never offered any advice about children's health care on this board. If you do want to talk about people you could spend some time looking into drugs like DES which were commonly prescribed as "safe" and ended up causing cancer in thousands of people whose mothers were prescribed the drug when pregnant. That's just one example; unfortunately, there are many more like it. 

I also have never advocated that people not vaccinate their animals. I have suggested not over-vaccinating animals and not vaccinating sick animals (something most vets will do without a second thought). There are many very reputable breeders on this forum who minimally vaccinate because they have seen how harmful over vaccination is. Yet there are still many vets who recommend vaccinating your dog for everything every single year. 

I myself had a situation where an e-vet gave my 14 yo dog a shot of "pain medication" without asking my permission or telling me what it was. It almost killed her. When I went to the website of the product it specifically said it was not be used in animals with several conditions my dog had at that time. When I took her to a different vet the next morning they told me she had a very small chance of surviving. Luckily she did survive but wasn't that first vet incredibly irresponsible? Had I treated her with a homeopathic remedy I can guarantee she wouldn't have ended up on the brink of life like that. 

Do you research every single drug prescribed to you, your animals or your family members? Most people certainly don't. Yet there are actually a lot of drugs on the market that have not been properly tested. And there are also many drugs on the market for use on or in dogs and cats that have proven to be unsafe for many animals. 

Finally homeopathy is really cheap so no one is getting ripped off. Most of the remedies I have cost me a couple of bucks or less and last a long time. Very few people on this board actually use homeopathic remedies or know much about them. Perhaps your time would be better spent looking into the pharmaceutical industry. That's where the big bucks are and that's where people get ripped off and REAL harm happens.


----------



## JPF

BowWowMeow said:


> JPF-
> 
> I noticed you used pumpkin when transitioning foods with Enzo. Wasn't that dangerous for him? And why did you use pumpkin--there is no scientific proof that it works. If you were worried about diarrhea why not use a "proven" medicine?
> 
> Your ignorance and arrogance shine right through...find me ONE post on this board where someone used a homeopathic remedy in lieu of a "proven" allopathic medicine and harmed their dog (or cat). I can find you HUNDREDS (and probably thousands if I did enough searching) of posts on this board where dogs (and cats) have had reactions to "proven" allopathic medicine.
> 
> Also, this is not a conversation about children. This is about animals. I have never offered any advice about children's health care on this board. If you do want to talk about people you could spend some time looking into drugs like DES which were commonly prescribed as "safe" and ended up causing cancer in thousands of people whose mothers were prescribed the drug when pregnant. That's just one example; unfortunately, there are many more like it.
> 
> I also have never advocated that people not vaccinate their animals. I have suggested not over-vaccinating animals and not vaccinating sick animals (something most vets will do without a second thought). There are many very reputable breeders on this forum who minimally vaccinate because they have seen how harmful over vaccination is. Yet there are still many vets who recommend vaccinating your dog for everything every single year.
> 
> I myself had a situation where an e-vet gave my 14 yo dog a shot of "pain medication" without asking my permission or telling me what it was. It almost killed her. When I went to the website of the product it specifically said it was not be used in animals with several conditions my dog had at that time. When I took her to a different vet the next morning they told me she had a very small chance of surviving. Luckily she did survive but wasn't that first vet incredibly irresponsible? Had I treated her with a homeopathic remedy I can guarantee she wouldn't have ended up on the brink of life like that.
> 
> Do you research every single drug prescribed to you, your animals or your family members? Most people certainly don't. Yet there are actually a lot of drugs on the market that have not been properly tested. And there are also many drugs on the market for use on or in dogs and cats that have proven to be unsafe for many animals.
> 
> Finally homeopathy is really cheap so no one is getting ripped off. Most of the remedies I have cost me a couple of bucks or less and last a long time. Very few people on this board actually use homeopathic remedies or know much about them. Perhaps your time would be better spent looking into the pharmaceutical industry. That's where the big bucks are and that's where people get ripped off and REAL harm happens.


in regards to the pumpkin (nice research by the way)--I tried it because it could cause no harm. In addition his condition was in no way life threatening so why use another drug. My real beef is with things sold that look like real drugs and have no proof behind them. pumpkin? its sold in a can that doesn't make any claims. 

In many ways we agree. I don't like the pharmaceutical industry either. My argument is for ANY drug to be throughly vetted science. If something actually works im all for it. 

Lastly I wasn't referring to you or really any specific member, just a mentality that seems to have sprung up to question any vaccine. I think its harmful. We have a right to question but when those questions have been answered by science and still people aren't happy, thats when people become irrational. 

Some drugs that have thought to have been safe have since been pulled off the market. But you know why that is? Science has proven them harmful. I put my trust in the most current scientific research not anecdotes I hear on the internet (this is not in reference to you).


----------



## crackem

JPF said:


> Listen to the recent NPR story about the reemergence of whooping cough and then comment. Don't know who snidermans is but she must be intelligent if you have disdain for her
> 
> I have never said that vaccines are cannot cause trouble. Of course they can. They warn you every time you get one. But to rail against vaccines is the current fad that is endangering lives. Vaccines have saved more lives than I can count. Try bringing you anti vaccine logic to africa where countless people die every day because they don't have access to them. it is a position unique to countries where the fact that a majority of people are vaccinated can only say this.


WHy would I go to NPR for second hand information? I have plenty of primary sources at my disposal and raw data from which to make my own decisions about where it's coming from. I just find it funny that you bring it up like you know what you're talking about.

Bring my anti-vaccine logic to Africa? sorry, i didn't realize my previous work with Steve callister in LaX WI on a vaccine actually brought to market, put me in the anti-vaccine logic crowd, but I would say it gave me a greater understanding than most on here. But to each his own. I'd say Africa has a bigger problem with no clean water and poor nutrition. I'm going to wager a guess, those things kill more people than anything.


----------



## JPF

crackem said:


> WHy would I go to NPR for second hand information? I have plenty of primary sources at my disposal and raw data from which to make my own decisions about where it's coming from. I just find it funny that you bring it up like you know what you're talking about.
> 
> Bring my anti-vaccine logic to Africa? sorry, i didn't realize my previous work with Steve callister in LaX WI on a vaccine actually brought to market, put me in the anti-vaccine logic crowd, but I would say it gave me a greater understanding than most on here. But to each his own. I'd say Africa has a bigger problem with no clean water and poor nutrition. I'm going to wager a guess, those things kill more people than anything.


ugh...allright. whatever you say. There are plenty of experts that would agree with my statement but no, you are the expert because you worked with one person in the field. I yield to your amazing knowledge.

Its also interesting you find it funny I use a reputable new organization that did a recent story on this very problem and turn it around to say I don't know what im talking about. Huh?

And of course clean water and food are huge, but to those dying needlessly of disease that are pretty much wiped out here because of vaccines i dont think would agree. I don't think I ever personally put you into the anti vaccine crowd, but if I did, i apologize.


----------



## bite_me

Thanks, crackem for exposing yourself as an anti-vaccinatior. I think this in itself says more than I can about your rationality, gullibility and ignorance of reality.
I would happily tell your friends cousin face to face that vaccinations are 99.999% harmless.

There are hardly any cases like the one you mentioned, despite the countless millions of vaccinations being administered. 

You mock others for their methods of obtaining information, yet your information is hilariously flawed, and I'm guessing you just make it up as you go along. If you use statistics, provide the evidence, or it doesn't count for anything.

Studies have shown I am 100% right on this.


----------



## bite_me

Anja1Blue said:


> I think JPF is closely related to bite me (might even BE bite me) - they sound a lot alike :laugh: Do you live in NZ JPF?
> ____________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> Anja SchH3 GSD
> Conor GSD
> Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


 We sound alike because we are using reason and logic based on concrete evidence, rather than emotive language which generally hasn't got much to do with the topic anyway.


----------



## crackem

> ugh...allright. whatever you say. There are plenty of experts that would agree with my statement but no, you are the expert because you worked with one person in the field. I yield to your amazing knowledge.


yes, you can find experts to agree with about anything. I have plenty of colleagues that agree with me. The overwhelming majority of case are not under vaccinated, part of the anti vaccine crowd or any other group public health officials would like you to believe are the cause and root of the current cases. In fact 80% and upwards in some of the population outbreaks are fully vaccinated, they have recieved every mandated vaccine they should have. I haven't seen the NPR program, I guess I would like to and see where they drew their info from.

and you don't have to bow to my amazing knowledge. It would probably benefit you to have some of the knowledge I do, in fact, if I could google link my brain to you and your friend here, you might actually know what logic and reasoning looks like 

Working with one guy certainly doesn't sound like much does it, but years of work on a vaccine actually brought to market is a bit more than what you make it sound like. I think the experience gives me a unique view of the situation and no my experience didn't start or end there. But if you'd like to believe so, your welcome to it.



> I don't think I ever personally put you into the anti vaccine crowd,


so what did you mean when you said this?


> Try bringing you anti vaccine logic to africa where countless people die


I wasn't meaning to make this an "anti-vaccine" thread. I gave an example of someone I personally know that was on life support from something mandated by her work. and seemingly more and more want everyone else to do what they think is right. 

one thing about the whole vaccine and disease bit, many people have irrational fears about certain diseases, as many as have irrational fears about vaccination. The issue I have is when others feel it is their right to tell others what they must do to their bodies, or their kids, or their pets or anything else. and this goes from everything from vaccines and medicines to what kind of classes your kids should take, what church they should go to, how much they should get paid at their job, and every other thing people think they have a say in.


----------



## UConnGSD

JPF said:


> Some drugs that have thought to have been safe have since been pulled off the market. But you know why that is? Science has proven them harmful.


:rofl: Uh, no. It's because they are getting their asses handed to them by sick patients and their loved ones and then they are realizing that their cost-benefit analysis isn't quite working out the way they thought it would.



JPF said:


> I put my trust in the most current scientific research not anecdotes I hear on the internet (this is not in reference to you).


So, you mean to tell me that if a doctor were to prescribe Lipitor to you, you would go out and dig through the journal articles, personally vet them out and only then take it? I doubt that! So what it means is this: you are putting your faith in the thought that the science behind big pharma is sound and largely error-free. And I am telling you that you are just as naive as what you accuse us of being. Have you ever talked to someone who works for one of the firms that do medical data analysis for a living? Or better yet, the CEOs of these companies? I have and it was very illuminating. The process is error-ridden, my dear. Often, they don't catch errors that crept into the earlier trial phases until the very last rounds of the trials and by then, they have sunk in BILLIONS. So what do you think they are going to do at that point? Scrap the tests? Start all over? And guess what, there is ZERO accountability for these errors. Speaking of research, I suggest you do that yourself a little bit more, before evangelizing about something you think you have tremendous grasp over but are really only scratching the surface.

Also, do you know what the usual R/D:Marketing $$ ratio is in your typical big pharma companies? At least, 1:2; in some cases, as high as 1:6. And if you don't have a problem with that, then your ignorance and naivete metrics just hit a new low with me.

And while accuse us of hysterics, look in the mirror, my dear. Both you and bite_me.
a) For the umpteenth time, NOBODY here is suggesting that you use homoepathy in lieu of something else. 
b) When you use pumpkin for diarrhea, it's okay because it's not a life-threatening disease. Yet, when we use homeopathy for diarrhea, the animal is suffering. So your logic then is that homeopathy is too weak to do any good but mighty powerful enough to do damage. What wonderful logic!


----------



## UConnGSD

And since your incessant carping about research studies is getting on my nerves (why can't you do your own research? Why must we have to spend our precious time digging this up, purely because of your personal hangups? Oh that's right, you didn't find a single article. That's what happens when you are already biased before the process even begins.), here's a partial list of positive homeopathy articles. Don't worry, they are all in peer-reviewed medical journals. Now do some reading and convince yourself. Or not. But do your own homework.

Linde, K. et al. “Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials,” The Lancet, 250, pp. 834-843 (1997).

Kleijnen, J. et al. “Clinical Trials of Homeopathy,” British Medical Journal, 302, pp. 316-323 (1991).

Jacobs, J. et al. “Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua,” Pediatrics, Vol. 83, No. 5, pp. 719-725 (1994).

Bell, I.R. et al. “Improved Clinical Status in Fibromyalgia Patients Treated with Individualized Homeopathic Remedies Versus Placebo,” Rheumatology, 2004b; 43 (5):577-82.

Taylor, M.A. et al. “Randomised Controlled Trial of Homoeopathy Versus Placebo in Perennial Allergic Rhinitis with Overview of Four Trial Series,” British Medical Journal, 321, pp. 471-476 (2000).

Rao, et. Al. “Characterization of the Structure of Ultra Dilute Sols with Remarkable Biological Properties,” Materials Letters, Vol. 62, Issues 10-11, pp. 1487-1490 (2008).

Davenas, et al. “Human Basophil Degranulation Triggered by Very Dilute Antiserum Againt IgE,” Nature, Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818 (1988).

Aissa, J. et al. “Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by Telephone Link,” Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 99:S175 (1997).

Brown, V. and M. Ennis. “Flow-Cytometric Analysis of Basophil Activation: Inhibition by Histamine at Conventional and Homeopathic Concentrations,” Inflammation Research, 50, Supplement (2), S47-S48 (2001).

Montagnier, Luc, et al. “Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences,” Insterdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci, 1:81-90 (2009).

Homeopathy – what are the active ingredients? An exploratory study using the UK Medical Research Council's framework for the eva	Thompson and Weiss	Feb 2011

A Review of Homeopathic Research in the Treatment of Respiratory Allergies	Ullman and Frass	Aug 2010

Large-scale application of highly-diluted bacteria for Leptospirosis epidemic control.	Bracho et al.	Aug 2010

Treatment of Helicobacter Pylori with Nux Vomica and Calendula Officinalis	Hofbauer	Jul 2010

Homeopathic treatment of patients with migraine: a prospective observational study with a 2-year follow-up period	Witt	Apr 2010

Homeopathic Treatment of Elderly Patients	Teut	Mar 2010

Homeopathy as an alternative to antibiotics in diarrhoea in piglets	Camerlink I, Ellinger L, Bakker EJ, Lantinga EA.	Mar 2010

Placebo effects in homeopathy not larger than in conventional medicine	T. Nuhn, R. Ludtke, and M. Geraedts	Mar 2010

The Use of Homeopathic Products in Childhood	Thompson	Feb 2010

Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells	Frenkel	Feb 2010


----------



## JPF

UConnGSD said:


> And since your incessant carping about research studies is getting on my nerves (why can't you do your own research? Why must we have to spend our precious time digging this up, purely because of your personal hangups? Oh that's right, you didn't find a single article. That's what happens when you are already biased before the process even begins.), here's a partial list of positive homeopathy articles. Don't worry, they are all in peer-reviewed medical journals. Now do some reading and convince yourself. Or not. But do your own homework.
> 
> Linde, K. et al. “Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials,” The Lancet, 250, pp. 834-843 (1997).
> 
> Kleijnen, J. et al. “Clinical Trials of Homeopathy,” British Medical Journal, 302, pp. 316-323 (1991).
> 
> Jacobs, J. et al. “Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua,” Pediatrics, Vol. 83, No. 5, pp. 719-725 (1994).
> 
> Bell, I.R. et al. “Improved Clinical Status in Fibromyalgia Patients Treated with Individualized Homeopathic Remedies Versus Placebo,” Rheumatology, 2004b; 43 (5):577-82.
> 
> Taylor, M.A. et al. “Randomised Controlled Trial of Homoeopathy Versus Placebo in Perennial Allergic Rhinitis with Overview of Four Trial Series,” British Medical Journal, 321, pp. 471-476 (2000).
> 
> Rao, et. Al. “Characterization of the Structure of Ultra Dilute Sols with Remarkable Biological Properties,” Materials Letters, Vol. 62, Issues 10-11, pp. 1487-1490 (2008).
> 
> Davenas, et al. “Human Basophil Degranulation Triggered by Very Dilute Antiserum Againt IgE,” Nature, Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818 (1988).
> 
> Aissa, J. et al. “Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by Telephone Link,” Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 99:S175 (1997).
> 
> Brown, V. and M. Ennis. “Flow-Cytometric Analysis of Basophil Activation: Inhibition by Histamine at Conventional and Homeopathic Concentrations,” Inflammation Research, 50, Supplement (2), S47-S48 (2001).
> 
> Montagnier, Luc, et al. “Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences,” Insterdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci, 1:81-90 (2009).
> 
> Homeopathy – what are the active ingredients? An exploratory study using the UK Medical Research Council's framework for the eva	Thompson and Weiss	Feb 2011
> 
> A Review of Homeopathic Research in the Treatment of Respiratory Allergies	Ullman and Frass	Aug 2010
> 
> Large-scale application of highly-diluted bacteria for Leptospirosis epidemic control.	Bracho et al.	Aug 2010
> 
> Treatment of Helicobacter Pylori with Nux Vomica and Calendula Officinalis	Hofbauer	Jul 2010
> 
> Homeopathic treatment of patients with migraine: a prospective observational study with a 2-year follow-up period	Witt	Apr 2010
> 
> Homeopathic Treatment of Elderly Patients	Teut	Mar 2010
> 
> Homeopathy as an alternative to antibiotics in diarrhoea in piglets	Camerlink I, Ellinger L, Bakker EJ, Lantinga EA.	Mar 2010
> 
> Placebo effects in homeopathy not larger than in conventional medicine	T. Nuhn, R. Ludtke, and M. Geraedts	Mar 2010
> 
> The Use of Homeopathic Products in Childhood	Thompson	Feb 2010
> 
> Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells	Frenkel	Feb 2010


Thats great. if the remedies work they are no longer homeopathic they are called medicine. If someone has the evidence something works then thats all anyone can ask for.


----------



## JPF

UConnGSD said:


> :rofl: Uh, no. It's because they are getting their asses handed to them by sick patients and their loved ones and then they are realizing that their cost-benefit analysis isn't quite working out the way they thought it would.
> 
> 
> So, you mean to tell me that if a doctor were to prescribe Lipitor to you, you would go out and dig through the journal articles, personally vet them out and only then take it? I doubt that! So what it means is this: you are putting your faith in the thought that the science behind big pharma is sound and largely error-free. And I am telling you that you are just as naive as what you accuse us of being. Have you ever talked to someone who works for one of the firms that do medical data analysis for a living? Or better yet, the CEOs of these companies? I have and it was very illuminating. The process is error-ridden, my dear. Often, they don't catch errors that crept into the earlier trial phases until the very last rounds of the trials and by then, they have sunk in BILLIONS. So what do you think they are going to do at that point? Scrap the tests? Start all over? And guess what, there is ZERO accountability for these errors. Speaking of research, I suggest you do that yourself a little bit more, before evangelizing about something you think you have tremendous grasp over but are really only scratching the surface.
> 
> Also, do you know what the usual R/D:Marketing $$ ratio is in your typical big pharma companies? At least, 1:2; in some cases, as high as 1:6. And if you don't have a problem with that, then your ignorance and naivete metrics just hit a new low with me.
> 
> And while accuse us of hysterics, look in the mirror, my dear. Both you and bite_me.
> a) For the umpteenth time, NOBODY here is suggesting that you use homoepathy in lieu of something else.
> b) When you use pumpkin for diarrhea, it's okay because it's not a life-threatening disease. Yet, when we use homeopathy for diarrhea, the animal is suffering. So your logic then is that homeopathy is too weak to do any good but mighty powerful enough to do damage. What wonderful logic!


pumpkin for diarhea: if it works it works for a simple and scientifically identifiable reason, it contains a ton of fiber. Thats why I used it. And to be completely clear it didn't clear up his issues in the long run. I never posted about it afterword but it seemed to help at first but the diarrhea came back. In the end he just grew out of it. The vet advised if it wasn't liquid and just occasional (and he was tested for parasites) then not to worry. She was right.

Second, thats not my logic. But thanks for putting words into my mouth. My point was homeopathy can do damage in lieu of other proven treatments. In others words it is doing nothing, but you could have used something that would help instead. Understand?


----------



## JPF

crackem said:


> yes, you can find experts to agree with about anything. I have plenty of colleagues that agree with me. The overwhelming majority of case are not under vaccinated, part of the anti vaccine crowd or any other group public health officials would like you to believe are the cause and root of the current cases. In fact 80% and upwards in some of the population outbreaks are fully vaccinated, they have recieved every mandated vaccine they should have. I haven't seen the NPR program, I guess I would like to and see where they drew their info from.
> 
> and you don't have to bow to my amazing knowledge. It would probably benefit you to have some of the knowledge I do, in fact, if I could google link my brain to you and your friend here, you might actually know what logic and reasoning looks like
> 
> Working with one guy certainly doesn't sound like much does it, but years of work on a vaccine actually brought to market is a bit more than what you make it sound like. I think the experience gives me a unique view of the situation and no my experience didn't start or end there. But if you'd like to believe so, your welcome to it.
> 
> 
> so what did you mean when you said this?
> I wasn't meaning to make this an "anti-vaccine" thread. I gave an example of someone I personally know that was on life support from something mandated by her work. and seemingly more and more want everyone else to do what they think is right.
> 
> one thing about the whole vaccine and disease bit, many people have irrational fears about certain diseases, as many as have irrational fears about vaccination. The issue I have is when others feel it is their right to tell others what they must do to their bodies, or their kids, or their pets or anything else. and this goes from everything from vaccines and medicines to what kind of classes your kids should take, what church they should go to, how much they should get paid at their job, and every other thing people think they have a say in.


The problem with your stance of "The issue I have is when others feel it is their right to tell others what they must do to their bodies, or their kids, or their pets or anything else." is this: when other people are hurt by their refusal to act rationally and get a vaccine then it becomes a public interest that they are compelled to get the vaccine. Fine if you want to go live in the woods and not interact with other people, dont get the vaccine. But if your kid is going to school with my kid i have a huge problem with you refusing to get your child vaccinated. 

For the rest of your point about people telling you what to do, yeah thats great I don't want them doing that either. But there are certain things that by not acting for the common good you endanger other people. Do you have a problem with being compelled to buy insurance on your car? There are tons of things we are compelled to do to live in the clean, orderly and safe country we live in. Getting vaccinated is just one of them. And seriously, it is also one of the safest.


----------



## JPF

bite me-- now i know how you felt before. We need some more rational minds to enter the debate. 

Anyways its been great guys. this is taking up too much of my time. Enzo is a little pissed off he is not chasing after a ball right now while I argue about something he has little interest in over the internet. So in the interest of my dog I will not be replying for a little while. Feel free to bash me while I am away.


----------



## bite_me

UConnGSD said:


> And since your incessant carping about research studies is getting on my nerves (why can't you do your own research? Why must we have to spend our precious time digging this up, purely because of your personal hangups? Oh that's right, you didn't find a single article. That's what happens when you are already biased before the process even begins.), here's a partial list of positive homeopathy articles. Don't worry, they are all in peer-reviewed medical journals. Now do some reading and convince yourself. Or not. But do your own homework.
> 
> Linde, K. et al. “Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials,” The Lancet, 250, pp. 834-843 (1997).
> 
> Kleijnen, J. et al. “Clinical Trials of Homeopathy,” British Medical Journal, 302, pp. 316-323 (1991).
> 
> Jacobs, J. et al. “Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua,” Pediatrics, Vol. 83, No. 5, pp. 719-725 (1994).
> 
> Bell, I.R. et al. “Improved Clinical Status in Fibromyalgia Patients Treated with Individualized Homeopathic Remedies Versus Placebo,” Rheumatology, 2004b; 43 (5):577-82.
> 
> Taylor, M.A. et al. “Randomised Controlled Trial of Homoeopathy Versus Placebo in Perennial Allergic Rhinitis with Overview of Four Trial Series,” British Medical Journal, 321, pp. 471-476 (2000).
> 
> Rao, et. Al. “Characterization of the Structure of Ultra Dilute Sols with Remarkable Biological Properties,” Materials Letters, Vol. 62, Issues 10-11, pp. 1487-1490 (2008).
> 
> Davenas, et al. “Human Basophil Degranulation Triggered by Very Dilute Antiserum Againt IgE,” Nature, Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818 (1988).
> 
> Aissa, J. et al. “Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by Telephone Link,” Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 99:S175 (1997).
> 
> Brown, V. and M. Ennis. “Flow-Cytometric Analysis of Basophil Activation: Inhibition by Histamine at Conventional and Homeopathic Concentrations,” Inflammation Research, 50, Supplement (2), S47-S48 (2001).
> 
> Montagnier, Luc, et al. “Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences,” Insterdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci, 1:81-90 (2009).
> 
> Homeopathy – what are the active ingredients? An exploratory study using the UK Medical Research Council's framework for the eva Thompson and Weiss Feb 2011
> 
> A Review of Homeopathic Research in the Treatment of Respiratory Allergies Ullman and Frass Aug 2010
> 
> Large-scale application of highly-diluted bacteria for Leptospirosis epidemic control. Bracho et al. Aug 2010
> 
> Treatment of Helicobacter Pylori with Nux Vomica and Calendula Officinalis Hofbauer Jul 2010
> 
> Homeopathic treatment of patients with migraine: a prospective observational study with a 2-year follow-up period Witt Apr 2010
> 
> Homeopathic Treatment of Elderly Patients Teut Mar 2010
> 
> Homeopathy as an alternative to antibiotics in diarrhoea in piglets Camerlink I, Ellinger L, Bakker EJ, Lantinga EA. Mar 2010
> 
> Placebo effects in homeopathy not larger than in conventional medicine T. Nuhn, R. Ludtke, and M. Geraedts Mar 2010
> 
> The Use of Homeopathic Products in Childhood Thompson Feb 2010
> 
> Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells Frenkel Feb 2010


LOL all you did was copy paste from this website; Homeopathic Care: Could This 'Forbidden Medicine' Eliminate the Need for Drugs?

*Hilariously, you either lied or accidentally omitted the key point*. *Check out the bold underlined sentence below, from the original source you cited.*
[1] Baum, Michael and Edzard Ernst, "Should We Maintain an Open Mind about Homeopathy?" The American Journal of Medicine, Vol. 122, No. 11, pp. 973-974 (November 2009).
[2] Shang, A. et al. "Are the Clinical Effects of Homeopathy Placebo Effects? Comparative Study of Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy and Allopathy," The Lancet, 366, pp. 726- 732 (2005).

*An extensive refutation of the results of this study, including statistical analyses and evidence of foul-play, can be found here*
[3] Linde, K. et al. "Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials," The Lancet, 250, pp. 834-843 (1997).
[4] Kleijnen, J. et al. "Clinical Trials of Homeopathy," British Medical Journal, 302, pp. 316-323 (1991).
[5] Jacobs, J. et al. "Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua," Pediatrics, Vol. 83, No. 5, pp. 719-725 (1994).
[6] Bell, I.R. et al. "Improved Clinical Status in Fibromyalgia Patients Treated with Individualized Homeopathic Remedies Versus Placebo," Rheumatology, 2004b; 43 (5):577-82.
[7] Taylor, M.A. et al. "Randomised Controlled Trial of Homoeopathy Versus Placebo in Perennial Allergic Rhinitis with Overview of Four Trial Series," British Medical Journal, 321, pp. 471-476 (2000).
[8] For more trials, see Home | National Center for Homeopathy (under Articles, click Research).
[9] Rao, et al. "The Defining Role of Structure (Including Epitaxy) in the Plausibility of Homeopathy," Homeopathy, 96, pp. 175-182 (2007).
[10] Rao, et. Al. "Characterization of the Structure of Ultra Dilute Sols with Remarkable Biological Properties," Materials Letters, Vol. 62, Issues 10-11, pp. 1487-1490 (2008).
[11] Davenas, et al. "Human Basophil Degranulation Triggered by Very Dilute Antiserum Againt IgE," Nature, Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818 (1988).
[12] Aissa, J. et al. "Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by Telephone Link," Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 99:S175 (1997).
[13] Brown, V. and M. Ennis. "Flow-Cytometric Analysis of Basophil Activation: Inhibition by Histamine at Conventional and Homeopathic Concentrations," Inflammation Research, 50, Supplement (2), S47-S48 (2001).
[14] Montagnier, Luc, et al. "Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences," Insterdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci, 1:81-90 (2009).
[15] http://homeopathyresource.wordpress.com/2009/01/01/successful-use-of-homeopathyin- over-5-million-people-reported-from-cuba
[16] Reichenberg-Ullman, J. "A Homeopathic Approach to Behavioral Problems," Mothering, Number 74, pp. 97-101 (1995).
[17] Lansky, Amy. Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy. R.L. Ranch Press (2003).
[18] California Health Freedom Coalition.
[19]www.medalerts.org.

Your references prove the opposite to the case you are trying to make so you fail. The "supporting" papers cited are just philosophising about the nature of alternative medicines, and aren't studies as you seem to think.

Here is the conclusion from the "supporting" study listed (1)

*CONCLUSIONS: *

At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homoeopathy, but only by means of well performed trials.

This is from 1991, the trials have since been conducted and have conclusively proven homeopathy to be a complete joke.


----------



## JPF

bite_me said:


> LOL all you did was copy paste from this website; Homeopathic Care: Could This 'Forbidden Medicine' Eliminate the Need for Drugs?
> 
> *Hilariously, you either lied or accidentally omitted the key point*. *Check out the bold underlined sentence below, from the original source you cited.*
> [1] Baum, Michael and Edzard Ernst, "Should We Maintain an Open Mind about Homeopathy?" The American Journal of Medicine, Vol. 122, No. 11, pp. 973-974 (November 2009).
> [2] Shang, A. et al. "Are the Clinical Effects of Homeopathy Placebo Effects? Comparative Study of Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy and Allopathy," The Lancet, 366, pp. 726- 732 (2005).
> 
> *An extensive refutation of the results of this study, including statistical analyses and evidence of foul-play, can be found here*
> [3] Linde, K. et al. "Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials," The Lancet, 250, pp. 834-843 (1997).
> [4] Kleijnen, J. et al. "Clinical Trials of Homeopathy," British Medical Journal, 302, pp. 316-323 (1991).
> [5] Jacobs, J. et al. "Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua," Pediatrics, Vol. 83, No. 5, pp. 719-725 (1994).
> [6] Bell, I.R. et al. "Improved Clinical Status in Fibromyalgia Patients Treated with Individualized Homeopathic Remedies Versus Placebo," Rheumatology, 2004b; 43 (5):577-82.
> [7] Taylor, M.A. et al. "Randomised Controlled Trial of Homoeopathy Versus Placebo in Perennial Allergic Rhinitis with Overview of Four Trial Series," British Medical Journal, 321, pp. 471-476 (2000).
> [8] For more trials, see Home | National Center for Homeopathy (under Articles, click Research).
> [9] Rao, et al. "The Defining Role of Structure (Including Epitaxy) in the Plausibility of Homeopathy," Homeopathy, 96, pp. 175-182 (2007).
> [10] Rao, et. Al. "Characterization of the Structure of Ultra Dilute Sols with Remarkable Biological Properties," Materials Letters, Vol. 62, Issues 10-11, pp. 1487-1490 (2008).
> [11] Davenas, et al. "Human Basophil Degranulation Triggered by Very Dilute Antiserum Againt IgE," Nature, Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818 (1988).
> [12] Aissa, J. et al. "Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by Telephone Link," Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 99:S175 (1997).
> [13] Brown, V. and M. Ennis. "Flow-Cytometric Analysis of Basophil Activation: Inhibition by Histamine at Conventional and Homeopathic Concentrations," Inflammation Research, 50, Supplement (2), S47-S48 (2001).
> [14] Montagnier, Luc, et al. "Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences," Insterdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci, 1:81-90 (2009).
> [15] http://homeopathyresource.wordpress.com/2009/01/01/successful-use-of-homeopathyin- over-5-million-people-reported-from-cuba
> [16] Reichenberg-Ullman, J. "A Homeopathic Approach to Behavioral Problems," Mothering, Number 74, pp. 97-101 (1995).
> [17] Lansky, Amy. Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy. R.L. Ranch Press (2003).
> [18] California Health Freedom Coalition.
> [19]www.medalerts.org.
> 
> Your references prove the opposite to the case you are trying to make so you fail. The "supporting" papers cited are just philosophising about the nature of alternative medicines, and aren't studies as you seem to think.
> 
> Here is the conclusion from the "supporting" study listed (1)
> 
> *CONCLUSIONS: *
> 
> At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homoeopathy, but only by means of well performed trials.
> 
> This is from 1991, the trials have since been conducted and have conclusively proven homeopathy to be a complete joke.


oh man...im glad to have you around bite_me. I should have googled that myself. Guess I was just tired of wasting time defending a position that really should need much defending.


----------



## LisaT

arycrest said:


> Thanks Lisa,  I should have asked you a long time ago to explain it to me. So I guess the vet I took Ringer to who used the Bowen Massage method and examined him with a dangling crystal would be considered a homeopathic vet?


Gayle, not a homeopathic vet, since she didn't use the method of "like cures like". Typically a homeopathic remedy looks like a little sugar pill and comes in some kind of tube, like this: 










Your vet was a holistic vet, using energetic techniques, which, btw, work great on animals :laugh:



UConnGSD, Ruth, etc., don't waste your time....


----------



## NancyJ

Let him go. As long as he does not get in and try to derail other people's threads .....it does not interfere with those who support homeopathy to continue having discussions on the topic..


----------



## UConnGSD

bite_me said:


> LOL all you did was copy paste from this website; Homeopathic Care: Could This 'Forbidden Medicine' Eliminate the Need for Drugs?
> 
> *Hilariously, you either lied or accidentally omitted the key point*. *Check out the bold underlined sentence below, from the original source you cited.*
> [1] Baum, Michael and Edzard Ernst, "Should We Maintain an Open Mind about Homeopathy?" The American Journal of Medicine, Vol. 122, No. 11, pp. 973-974 (November 2009).
> [2] Shang, A. et al. "Are the Clinical Effects of Homeopathy Placebo Effects? Comparative Study of Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy and Allopathy," The Lancet, 366, pp. 726- 732 (2005).
> 
> *An extensive refutation of the results of this study, including statistical analyses and evidence of foul-play, can be found here*
> [3] Linde, K. et al. "Are the Clinical Effects of Homoeopathy Placebo Effects? A Meta-Analysis of Placebo-Controlled Trials," The Lancet, 250, pp. 834-843 (1997).
> [4] Kleijnen, J. et al. "Clinical Trials of Homeopathy," British Medical Journal, 302, pp. 316-323 (1991).
> [5] Jacobs, J. et al. "Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua," Pediatrics, Vol. 83, No. 5, pp. 719-725 (1994).
> [6] Bell, I.R. et al. "Improved Clinical Status in Fibromyalgia Patients Treated with Individualized Homeopathic Remedies Versus Placebo," Rheumatology, 2004b; 43 (5):577-82.
> [7] Taylor, M.A. et al. "Randomised Controlled Trial of Homoeopathy Versus Placebo in Perennial Allergic Rhinitis with Overview of Four Trial Series," British Medical Journal, 321, pp. 471-476 (2000).
> [8] For more trials, see Home | National Center for Homeopathy (under Articles, click Research).
> [9] Rao, et al. "The Defining Role of Structure (Including Epitaxy) in the Plausibility of Homeopathy," Homeopathy, 96, pp. 175-182 (2007).
> [10] Rao, et. Al. "Characterization of the Structure of Ultra Dilute Sols with Remarkable Biological Properties," Materials Letters, Vol. 62, Issues 10-11, pp. 1487-1490 (2008).
> [11] Davenas, et al. "Human Basophil Degranulation Triggered by Very Dilute Antiserum Againt IgE," Nature, Vol. 333, No. 6176, pp. 816-818 (1988).
> [12] Aissa, J. et al. "Transatlantic Transfer of Digitized Antigen Signal by Telephone Link," Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 99:S175 (1997).
> [13] Brown, V. and M. Ennis. "Flow-Cytometric Analysis of Basophil Activation: Inhibition by Histamine at Conventional and Homeopathic Concentrations," Inflammation Research, 50, Supplement (2), S47-S48 (2001).
> [14] Montagnier, Luc, et al. "Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences," Insterdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci, 1:81-90 (2009).
> [15] http://homeopathyresource.wordpress.com/2009/01/01/successful-use-of-homeopathyin- over-5-million-people-reported-from-cuba
> [16] Reichenberg-Ullman, J. "A Homeopathic Approach to Behavioral Problems," Mothering, Number 74, pp. 97-101 (1995).
> [17] Lansky, Amy. Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy. R.L. Ranch Press (2003).
> [18] California Health Freedom Coalition.
> [19]www.medalerts.org.
> 
> Your references prove the opposite to the case you are trying to make so you fail. The "supporting" papers cited are just philosophising about the nature of alternative medicines, and aren't studies as you seem to think.
> 
> Here is the conclusion from the "supporting" study listed (1)
> 
> *CONCLUSIONS: *
> 
> At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homoeopathy, but only by means of well performed trials.
> 
> This is from 1991, the trials have since been conducted and have conclusively proven homeopathy to be a complete joke.


bite_me, either you have extremely poor reading-comprehension skills.
Or, you are trying to pull a fast one here. And you might have convinced your clueless chum here (JFP) but not the rest of us. 

And here's why and I'll write in short sentences so that you can understand.

#2 on *your *list is critical of homeopathy, so you ought to love that one! 

#2 has been shown to be *methodologically severely flawed*.

And the sentence that you have so helpfully bolded out, points to the articles which indicate these flaws, which also includes "foul play".

The website I consulted in actually this one: The Side of Amy Lansky on Homeopathy

It contains the same list as you posted with one correction. The word "here" in the sentence which you so helpfully bolded is actually HYPERLINKED. And it points to the list of articles refuting #2.

The rest of the articles following #2 in your list have nothing to do with #2. 

*They are ALL positive studies of homeopathy.*

*But that did not stop you from twisting the evidence beyond recognition to fit your own agenda or to accuse me of lying.*

So the most *charitable *description of the stunt you just pulled is that your comprehension skills are *far *below the level at which you are trying to operate.

One final word of advice: before trying to be such defenders of scientific rational thinking, try doing some reading of your own. It will do you good.

And what exactly were you trying to prove by the "copying and pasting" thing? Sorry, but I don't see any point in spending more than the minimal amount of time on you. Author names, titles of articles and dates of publication are mentioned for all in my post. The websites are not the sacrosanct copyright holders of those articles.

Sadly, for some people, impertinence passes off as intelligence. But that does not mean that this should be humored.

Lisa, now I will take your advice and let this go. I am done with these two clowns.


----------



## Eugene Cassels

Bightme you are a misinformed cook my Vet is a graduate DVM and also a momeopath I have been useing him for years on all my animals ,horses and dogs I have a 6 year old Stallion that has never had a shor or a needele stuck in him other than for a coggins test and he is a happy boy today i also have a 31 yes 31 year old mare that is rideable today . you need to do some research and get your facts straight before you vent !!


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## Eugene Cassels

JPF I'm Sure you have heard of the disease west nile well for your information My Holistic vet had a cure and prevention just 5 days after the first horse died in florida and in addition he also has a cure rate of 98% it took Fort dodge 6 months to vome up with a vaccine and their prevention rate is only 60 % . to me the proof is in the product!


----------



## Eugene Cassels

Cookie TN just what constitutes an informed decision would my horse has never had west nile because of homeopathy be considered informed or my GSd was cured of lime Disease because of homeopathy be informed? for me homeopathy works that is why i rely on it even for myself.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

eugene, I'd be interested in what you used for the lyme disease ..can you give us some details? (and i am not one of the nay sayers when it comes to holistic/homeopathy, just wanted to throw that out there)


----------



## CookieTN

Eugene Cassels said:


> Cookie TN just what constitutes an informed decision would my horse has never had west nile because of homeopathy be considered informed or my GSd was cured of lime Disease because of homeopathy be informed? for me homeopathy works that is why i rely on it even for myself.


What I mean is when someone does their research on the subject and they know what they are doing. Based off of testimonies, studies, any type of research, etc. I can't condemn that. Don't really want to, anyway, even if it wasn't an informed decision.




Anywho, interesting discussion, guys.


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## bite_me

uconngsd said:


> bite_me, either you have extremely poor reading-comprehension skills.
> Or, you are trying to pull a fast one here. And you might have convinced your clueless chum here (jfp) but not the rest of us.
> 
> And here's why and i'll write in short sentences so that you can understand.
> 
> #2 on *your *list is critical of homeopathy, so you ought to love that one!
> 
> #2 has been shown to be *methodologically severely flawed*.
> 
> And the sentence that you have so helpfully bolded out, points to the articles which indicate these flaws, which also includes "foul play".
> 
> The website i consulted in actually this one: the side of amy lansky on homeopathy
> 
> it contains the same list as you posted with one correction. The word "here" in the sentence which you so helpfully bolded is actually hyperlinked. And it points to the list of articles refuting #2.
> 
> The rest of the articles following #2 in your list have nothing to do with #2.
> 
> *they are all positive studies of homeopathy.*
> 
> *but that did not stop you from twisting the evidence beyond recognition to fit your own agenda or to accuse me of lying.*
> 
> so the most *charitable *description of the stunt you just pulled is that your comprehension skills are *far *below the level at which you are trying to operate.
> 
> One final word of advice: Before trying to be such defenders of scientific rational thinking, try doing some reading of your own. It will do you good.
> 
> And what exactly were you trying to prove by the "copying and pasting" thing? Sorry, but i don't see any point in spending more than the minimal amount of time on you. Author names, titles of articles and dates of publication are mentioned for all in my post. The websites are not the sacrosanct copyright holders of those articles.
> 
> Sadly, for some people, impertinence passes off as intelligence. But that does not mean that this should be humored.
> 
> Lisa, now i will take your advice and let this go. I am done with these two clowns.


show me a study with a control group and a group assigned a placebo


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## NancyJ

Uh did you actually read some of the linked documents?


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## bite_me

jocoyn said:


> Uh did you actually read some of the linked documents?


 I did, and confess my original mistake, after reading some of the reference list it seemed to be less than positive evidence for homeopathy.

I was surprised to find a couple of studies which did seem to support the homeopathy hypothesis, although the homeopathy used was not the ultra-dilution which I would describe as being fundamental to describing a product as homeopathic.

To be fair none of the results were much better than a placebo.

In saying that, there does seem to be a case for homeopathy over placebo occasionally, which is fascinating. I may have to investigate further, but maintain an open mind. Thanks for sharing the info cookietn, it has given me something to think about.


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## bite_me

This evidence is little compared to the mountain against it.
It's not that some trials even show positive effects, it's that the effects are within the margin of error to be expected. that's exactly what you'd expect when 200 trials have been done. Sheer chance will inevitably produce one.One can't conclude they are therapeutically positive or negative, only that they are within the margin of error. The latter is what devotees are after, claiming efficacy where they cannot.



A review of the evidence for homeopathy and childhood ailments by Edzard Ernst included the Jacobs study (www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/1/69.long), and concluded:
The evidence from rigorous clinical trials of any type of therapeutic or preventive intervention testing homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments is not convincing enough for recommendations in any condition.​Orac discusses the Bell study herehttp://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/homeopathy-for-fibromyalgia-dana-ullman-strikes-again-on-the-huffington-post/, 
and Ernst included it in his review of evidence for FM here:SpringerLink - Clinical Rheumatology, Volume 29, Number 5
None of the trials was without serious flaws. Invariably, their results suggested that homoeopathy was better than the control interventions in alleviating the symptoms of FM. Independent replications are missing. Even though all RCTs suggested results that favour homoeopathy, important caveats exist. Therefore, the effectiveness of homoeopathy as a symptomatic treatment for FM remains unproven.​Here is the Evidence Check on homeopathy by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee:Alternative pet remedies: Government clampdown Defra News
In our view, the systematic reviews and meta-analyses conclusively demonstrate that homeopathic products perform no better than placebos.

I've skimmed the *Jacobs paper*.
So a kid who's got diarrhea from bad water.....gets better when given pure water instead. This is evidence for homeopathy ??
It was stated:-
Sample size calculations showed 100 children would be needed to show a 1-day difference in duration of diarrhea, which was thought by the authors to be clinically significant.​And then:-
All the remaining 81 children.​Fail!
The Wilcoxon rank sum test was used to get the main result. Even this test only obtained a significance of 0.048. i.e there was a 4.8% chance this result would occur by chance, or, at least 1 in 21 clinical trials of placebo vrs. placebo would be expected to get this result.
However, if you will look at table 5 you will notice that the _medians_ are 2.5 and 4.0 days, while the _means_ are much closer together at 3.0 and 3.8. In other words, the data distributions were irregular with some unfortunate outliers for the hypothesis. I'm sure the statistical tests were chosen before the blinding code was broken, so it was just lucky that a rank test was chosen##. A rank comparison test, as its name implies, only takes the order of the values, not their magnitude, so the less significant difference in _mean_ was ignored in favour of the more significant difference in _median_.
Also, note from the graph, the widest gap in outcome occurs for 3 stools, which happens to be the reported result. The difference doesn't look so good for 2 stools.
Given only 81 cases, I think it is a pity the raw data were not published in the paper. I've embarrassed (legitimate) medical researchers by reconstructing data from their graphs, so re-analysing alt.med data could be fun!
(## Given the low sample size and an unknown distribution a non-parametric test may have been appropriate, but who was satisfied with a sample size lower than the power calculation indicated?)
EDIT: Just thought of an example giving the difference between a rank test and a "value" test. Say we play some games. I beat you 20 to 10, and 18 to 6, but you beat me 15 to 16 and 12 to 13. Who is the better player? Its 2 all, but when I win, I hammer you​All the studies are cited in the report

Hats off to DEFRA in the UK: they've clamped down on homeopathic remedies for animals; http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2010/12/17/pet-remedies/

This has taken up ALOT of my time, please read some of this stuff.


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## Anja1Blue

If it's taken up a lot of your time bite_me that's your choice - I don't remember anyone putting a gun to your head and telling you to hit the books. The bottom line to this whole argument is very simple - those of us who have DOGS and have seen good results from using holistic medicine (which includes homeopathy) are not going to be convinced by the mountain of information you have posted, none of which is of your creation, nor is it based on any actual/personal experience you have had with a DOG. That said, you are never going to be convinced by us that this is a viable way to go. I think this is called a stand off, so why not call it a day, and perhaps show your purported interest in German Shepherd Dogs by visiting, and posting on, other sections of this forum - perhaps there are some topics there we can all agree on. 
_____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> Vaccines use a modified, usually killed version of a disease virus.....


This is not true. Distemper, parvo, the main combo vax is a modified LIVE virus vaccine.

check your facts....


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> This is not true. Distemper, parvo, the main combo vax is a modified LIVE virus vaccine.
> 
> check your facts....


Notice I didn't say _canine_ vaccines. I'm not talking about so narrow a scope.

Check your English.

ETA: Even if that was so, that doesn't change the point I was trying to make.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> Notice I didn't say _canine_ vaccines. I'm not talking about so narrow a scope.


Oops, my bad. On a dog forum, I had guessed that you didn't want to give the wrong idea about the main canine vaccines. Guess I gave that statement too much credit.


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> Oops, my bad. On a dog forum, I had guessed that you didn't want to give the wrong idea about the main canine vaccines. Guess I gave that statement too much credit.


The subject at the time was vaccines in general. There's no wrong ideas to be had.

If you can't follow the conversational flow, then don't try and jump in. Why are you so concerned about something I said over a week ago now?


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> If you can't follow the conversational flow, then don't try and jump in.


Yikes, a bit touchy? 




> Why are you so concerned about something I said over a week ago now?


I'm concerned with mis-information about canine vaccines being passed along on a K9 forum. That line needed clarification, it was misleading to someone that is just learning about canine vaccination.

Had I read it earlier, I would have clarified earlier. Guess I don't hang on every word here.


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> I'm concerned with mis-information about canine vaccines being passed along on a K9 forum. That line needed clarification, it was misleading to someone that is just learning about canine vaccination.


If that were really the case, then perhaps you should have phrased it without the snotty "this is not true" and "check your facts." There was nothing "clarifying" about what you were attempting to do.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> If that were really the case, then perhaps you should have phrased it without the snotty "this is not true" and "check your facts." There was nothing "clarifying" about what you were attempting to do.


Please don't get all wet over this.

Fact: it was not true, thus I stated it was not true.

Did my words add clarification? Yes, they did.

You'll need to be less sensitive on the forums, particularly when you don't post very accurately.


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> Please don't get all wet over this.
> 
> Fact: it was not true, thus I stated it was not true.
> 
> Did my words add clarification? Yes, they did.
> 
> You'll need to be less sensitive on the forums, particularly when you don't post very accurately.


Fact: Nothing I said was untrue. The context of the conversation ongoing at the time made it abundantly clear what was going on.

Did your words add clarification? No, they did not.

You'll need to pay better attention on these forums, and be mature enough to admit when you're wrong, particularly when you're going around making wildly inaccurate accusations on over week-old posts. You're the only person throwing a fit about it for the 14 pages this thread has gone on.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> Vaccines use a modified, usually killed version of a disease virus....


This is not true _for K9 vaccines_ - Distemper, parvo, the main combo vax is a modified LIVE virus vaccine.

check your facts....


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> This is not true _for K9 vaccines_ - Distemper, parvo, the main combo vax is a modified LIVE virus vaccine.
> 
> check your facts....


I'm not sure why I have to explain this to you a second time. Surely you are not this dense.

I did not say _canine vaccines_. I said "vaccines." The post I quoted was referencing vaccines and homeopathy in general. If I would have meant canine vaccines I would have said that. Our world is bigger than canine vaccines and tick diseases.

Just stop. You're trying too hard.


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## BowWowMeow

Here is some info on canine vaccines from the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: http://www.aahanet.org/publicdocuments/vaccineguidelines06revised.pdf

Now how about we let this thread die? Please?


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## gsdraven

Alright, that's enough. No more arguing back and forth on this thread. If you have something to add the topic of the thread then do so. Otherwise, keep your comments to yourself or take the bickering to PM.

Moderator


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## LisaT

The distinction of a LIVE vs not virus is important, they can do different things in the body, and can affect the body differently. Death by vaccination can occur in different ways, if this becomes an adverse effect. Homeopathy is very good at dealing with vax reactions. 

THE CHUNK of K9 vaccines AND of human childhood vaccines are LIVE virus vaccines. Speaking precisely on this topic is important for those that are, in ernest, trying to learn and follow the science. 

While "generally" is a subjective term, I believe that it's not even remotely true for K9 vaccines, and, to some, just as important to many, many childhood vaccines are MLV. 

If you talk about homeopathy, without all that noise from above, vaccination is forefront, because vaccination makes energetic changes in the body, and very few things are equipped to deal with that. 

Different Types of Vaccines — History of Vaccines


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## prophecy

bite_me said:


> *I'm sorry but that's impossible*. You may be looking for improvements in (behaviour?) and are therefore finding them. There is evidence that all placebos help with a variety of problems, especially sleep issues. A sugar pill has shown such effects.
> 
> The problem is, pets cannot be informed they are ingesting something that will help them, so even the placebo effect is lost on them. I have known people who have attempted to treat gum problems with their dog, and was told it "wasn't scientific, but still worked" and had to watch the dog suffer for weeks due to it's owners weird obsession with "natural remedies" which DO. NOT. WORK. Until they took it to the vet who thankfully cured it in a day.


To the contrary.I don't find homeopathy ''working'' impossible.Most modern pharmacuticals have a basis in plant,fungal and other biological origins. Pennacillin is based on a natural mold species(as are MANY anti-biotics we still use today).Migraine medicines still contain compounds from another fungus Ergot,(wich is used as a base for IV Ergotamine-a anti-migraine drug).Along with these examples,most modern medications have had their base compounds derived from plants/herbs.These medicinal plants are some of the same that modern medications are based on or refined from.We use Activated charcoal to treat poisoning in our ERs,monkeys still eat charcoal from humans fires for the same reason.So it is NOT impossible for homeopathy to work.
What it sounds like in your experiance is someone using ''homeopathy'' who has little to no experiance with the functions of these herbs/preperations and diagnosis of disease,and how to apply them,and wanted the ''cheap'' way out.


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## Draugr

Prophecy, the difference between homeopathy and the examples you listed are that most homeopathic remedies are diluted to the point where it is mathematically impossible (not to mention effectively impossible) for even a single atom of the active ingredient to remain. You are, quite literally, doing nothing more than taking a drink of water (or alcohol, depending on what the substance was diluted in).

~

As a note in general, I wonder if some of the confusion is maybe related to a confusion between a natural remedy and a homeopathic remedy. Homeopathic remedies are often "natural" (doesn't get more natural than good 'ol H2O, eh?) but not all natural remedies are homeopathic.


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## prophecy

Draugr said:


> Prophecy, the difference between homeopathy and the examples you listed are that most homeopathic remedies are diluted to the point where it is mathematically impossible (not to mention effectively impossible) for even a single atom of the active ingredient to remain. You are, quite literally, doing nothing more than taking a drink of water (or alcohol, depending on what the substance was diluted in).
> 
> ~
> 
> As a note in general, I wonder if some of the confusion is maybe related to a confusion between a natural remedy and a homeopathic remedy. Homeopathic remedies are often "natural" (doesn't get more natural than good 'ol H2O, eh?) but not all natural remedies are homeopathic.


Point taken.
I was assuming the OP was referring to all forms of alternative medicine being ineffective,not just the homeopathy but all naturopathy as well.I am not too familiar with the homeopathy,but herbs,oils and natural remedies I am fairly well versed in the usage.I can attest to the use of herbs/oils and folk medicine being beneficial. Homeopathy I cannot attest to,though the poster did seem opposed to all forms of 'natural healing'.


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## Draugr

prophecy said:


> Point taken.
> I was assuming the OP was referring to all forms of alternative medicine being ineffective,not just the homeopathy but all naturopathy as well.I am not too familiar with the homeopathy,but herbs,oils and natural remedies I am fairly well versed in the usage.I can attest to the use of herbs/oils and folk medicine being beneficial. Homeopathy I cannot attest to,though the poster did seem opposed to all forms of 'natural healing'.


Oh, certainly. I am definitely not opposed to natural/alternative medicines as a general rule and there are certainly natural remedies that have been every bit as rigorously tested and proven as any conventional remedy. And certainly just as many which have a reasonable/scientific expectation as to how they should work, but maybe don't have the same level of testing on them yet.

I am certain if penicillin were discovered in the modern day, you'd have the same sorts of people scoffing at it's usefulness as a "natural" remedy. A mold? How preposterous!!! Hehe.


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## LoveEcho

Just stumbled across this thread, this is a gem... I've always been on the fence about some homeopathy so it's been very interesting to read as I try and figure out what to do with my dog's feet. What I love the most, as a scientist, is the op trying to tell those who disagree that they're nuts when he is no more qualified to make his argument than they are.... Anyone can find studies to support and refute their opinions... I have my students do an exercise with this every year. Sometimes the best evidence is anecdotal, especially with something like this where a; much of the success is in the eye of the beholder, and b; the studies leave room for a great deal of (mis)interpretation. Somebody needs to teach this kid to argue like a scientist (should), not a politician :laugh: disclaimer: I'm not saying anyone is 'right' or 'wrong' 

And Draugr, thank you for clearing up what the difference is between holistic and homeopathic! I too interpreted it as the op knocking all alternative medicine.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

carmspack said:


> at the very least if it does not work , there have not been any deaths or recalls or list of side effects , like some of the big pharma who (we put the "harm" into pharma) who list suicide , kidney damage, going blind , as side affects for something which stops you from having a stuffed up nose


Well, not always . . . I work for a large healthcare system and we do, indeed, get people in the ER or even hospitalized who have serious electrolyte imbalances, renal problems, etc. from "natural" things they have bought at health stores and consumed in excess. The black cohosh fad a few years ago caused a lot of doctor and hospital visits, trust me. Melatonin is a natural sleep aid, but it also carries a risk of depression. I think people sometimes forget that natural things have elements in them that can throw things off-kilter. For example, aspirin is derived from willow bark. But if you cooked up willow bark and drank it, you really would have no idea how many mg of aspirin you were consuming. And this very natural analgesic also anticoagulates blood. Someone in this thread earlier compared codeine and marijuana, with marijuana being the "natural," yet codeine is a natural alkaloid derivative of the opium poppy, and much safer than the pure form of opium. Commonsense and balance is the key. I have a friend who thinks my year-round use of Frontline on my dog is harsh. Being a history buff, I know that natural little flea caused over 1/3 of the population of Europe to perish from the bubonic plague. Between the two, I choose Frontline. We live in a very safe period of time of medical advancement that makes us forget how common early death was before it. My ancestors were "healers" in the mountains of Virginia and West Virginia in the 1800s and early 1900s and would go out on horseback to treat the ill. Some of their remedies worked (for reasons we now scientifically understand) and some cures were worse than the disease. It's all commonsense, and I'm grateful we live in a period of time with the knowledge to pick and choose.


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## ramasmum

*homeopathy*

How interesting to find this thread and read what others have to say. My first statement would be that the so called surveys that aim to prove homeopathy does not work [bearing in mind these surveys are often conducted by the nhs who has quite an interest in using allpathic medicine for reasons that Im sure you will not be shocked to hear, if you have been on planet earth recently are primarily financial] ONLY STATE THEY CAN NOT FIND ACTIVE INGRIDIENTS, NOWHERE DO THEY PROVE PEOPLE ARE NOT CURED. Remember just because people get better without the harmful side effects of pharmaceutical drugs and the doctors can not or do not want to explain it because they can not create a patent for it making it financially beneficial to them as it naturally sourced does not mean they are not proven. Allpathic medicine claims to be proven, there are many treaments used in hospital and prescribed by doctors today that have never been proven to cure a human and many that reguarly KILL and leave people with dibilitating side effects. Some of these medicines include cancer treatments where other treatments have succesfully cured many people from cancer over the years without side effects yet they are also claimed to be ''unproven'' by the medical community and the scientists/doctors and practioners that use them are often left being targeted, persecuted and having their reputation destroyed because they attempted to step up against the corporations who are in control of what is and what isn't financially beneficial for them. I could go on however this is not a debate on natural cures verses the pharmaceutical industry this is a reply on a thread titled ''homeopathy does not work'' well you can say this is a matter of opinion but the FACT is homeopathic medicine is used and has been used for many years and it will continue to be. It is free from side effects and has proven to successfully treat humans and animals for many centuries. If you had even tried using it on your children or animals [with the knowledge that is required] you would know that is it succesful as a treament for many ailments. It seems to be however quite clear that you have not done enough research or practised the use of homeopathy enough to make such a statement. PERPHAPS YOU WILL FIND HOMEOPATHY DOES WORK WHEN YOU USE THE CORRECT REMEDY IN THE CORRECT CIRCUMSTANCE IN THE CORRECT POTENCY. It is quite clear from youe lack of knowledge as to how homeopathy works or is prepared that you have not done this with enough frequency to conduct a study that could back up your original comment and thread tag. Below for those who are interested is an article that explains where homeopathy comes from and how it works, it also explains strengths of remedies and how they are made as this is one area that has not been explained properly in this thread To add further I studied and have worked with homeopathy for over fifteen years, I have used on myself, my children for over eight years and my cats and dogs for over twelve years and when the correct remedy was administered I have also found the results satisfactory...To those that do carry on, to those that don't maybe give it a second look, after all it can not hurt..


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## ramasmum

*Article*

_German doctor Samuel Hahnemann discovered homoeopathy [the original spelling] in the nineteenth century when trying to come up with a healthy cure for sickness that did not involve such toxic ingredients and heroic compounds as were being used at the time. Around this time Hahnemann embarked on a famous experiment involving the use of a Peruvian bark CINCHONA OFFICINALIS or China which contains quinine for use in the treatment of malaria. Scottish physician Cullen had suggested that the only use of this was due to it's tonic action on the stomach. Hahnemann however was sceptical of this theory and after boiling up four drachms of the substance and proceeding to drink it for several day's he found he began to suffer from the awful symptom's of malaria aching joint's, sweating and a high fever. After he ceased usage of this tonic he found that all symptoms stopped immediately. Determining that although this remedy can treat malaria in an infected person it can also bring on the symptoms in a healthy person. ''Like cures like'' once said by Samuel Hahnemann, natural substances that can cause symptoms in a healthy person can work to treat those same symptoms in a sick person. Hahnemann later described this as the natural law, as above so below, as without so within, the hermetic philosophy. Hahnemann desribed how symptoms first manifest themselves and then later can if left untreated move on to effect vital organs and eventually the brain the most important part of our body [we will be providing more information on this and the philiosophy of homoeopathy in coming weeks]. Many other experiments have been conducted since the China experiment and homoeopathy is continually being proved to be one of the healthiest and an extremely successful treatment in all types of sickness.
__Conventional (allopathic) medicine almost always relies on treating a patient’s physical symptoms of illness. This treatment can often presume that a person’s symptoms need to be controlled or supressed. Remebering that eradicating the symptoms of someones illness does not illiminate the cause._​ _When treating a patient homeopathy is a process that observes a patient and takes in to account information gathered on a person as a whole in relation to all aspects of ones life currently and previously and then determines the underlying disturbance. This process can be somewhat intricate and wherein the homeopath attempts to discover where the flow of energy in the body has been blocked or impeded many symptoms and signals are taken in to account including whether a person seeks out the hot or cold, voice quality, temperament, expressions, body posture etc.. . Each signal/symptom offered by the patient can be thought of as a clue to determine the correct remedy. _​ _When all of the information about the patient’s physical, mental and emotinal symptoms have been taken in to account then the search for the correct treatment begins. Unlike allpathic medicine the homeopath’s goal is not to treat the symptoms of illness, but to erradicate the problem by stimulating the body’s natural curative powers. This is the reason for obtaining such a detailed analysis of the patient which will often involve strange types of questions about your life, general health and personality never taken into account by a doctor of allpathic medicine who prefers not only to treat symptoms but treat almost all people with the same illness, the same way not remebering that all people are individuals who have lived different lives and have different requirements. A homeopathic remedy will encourage ones body to return to a natural state of balance without nasty side effects and chemicals and if a remedy is not effective an alternative can be tried without having to worry about all the effects of a pharmecutical drug._
_James Tyler Kent whos contribution to the foundation stages of homeopathy should not be overlooked emphasised the metaphysical and clinical aspects of Hahnemanns teachings. Modern medicine believes that in general disease is caused by bacteria and viruses whereas Kent was said the microbe is not the cause of disease but the effect, some homeopaths still believe this today._
 _Traditionally homeopathy applies one remedy at a time. With the correct remedy you will expirience not only a disapperance of symptoms but also a stronger general immunity and a better sense of well being. _ 
_*What is the Materia Medica?*_ 
_The china experiment described in origins of homeopathy was followed by many others over a number of years. Healthy patients were administered remedies such as mercury, belladonna and rhubarb the patients then kept a diary recording their physical and mental symptoms including for example what time of day and in what weather a symptom may have been aggravated, patients were encouraged to be as detailed as possible. The patients were known as provers. The first proving results were known as the Fragmenta de viribus and contained the results for 27 different remedies, the next results known as the materia medica pura contained 65 remedies. Hundreds of remedies have since been tested in this manner and continue to be until this day. _​​ _*Do Homeopathic Remedies work as a Placebo?*_
_This question is often asked and to answer this question we must return to the early stages of homeopathy. Samuel Hahnemann began to notice from the start that the remedies he was administering were causing side effects that were sometimes even worse than the benefits in a remedy’s concentrated state [the mother tincture] so he decided to dilute the remedies however this also diluted the benefits. This forced Hanemann to come up with a solution, by chance he found that if he successed the diluted remedy [‘ie, shook] he could not only eliminate the unwanted side effects but he could actually enhance the curative powers. This process known as potenisation made remedies stronger. Although there are various different strengths [potencies] of remedies, we frequently use remedies that have been diluted to such an extent that it is barely conceivable that they contain enough of the original to have an effect however they continue to prove powerful and successful medicines. We are still just beginning to understand what happens at the successive stage._
_Homeopathy is increasingly being used by not only members of the public but also doctors, surgeons, dentists, various other physicians, practioners and veterinary surgeons and proves itself to work time and time again. Homeopathic remedies are used everyday by adults, children, babies and animals and continue to provide successful results surely these patients [animals and babies included] are not all supported and cured by a placebo effect although one can’t deny that, that theory may be satisfactory to a pharmaceutical industry who’s medications are still far from side effect free unlike homeopathy which continues to restore ones health without undesired effects._
_When being questions on the effectivness of homeopathy James Tyler Kent once said that if a homeopathic remedy did not cure a patient it was simply the wrong choice of remedy therefor being rectified by finding the right one, at which point the questioner asked why did he simply not suggest more strongly to the patient that the remedy being administered was the most effective for the cause. Kent replied that he suggested effectiveness upon the administration of every remedy but improvement was only seen with the correct one._

_*Strength of homeopathic remedies *_
_The process of dilution and succession of a remedy from its original form is known as potenization, resulting dilutions come in different potencies. Homeopathic remedies are sourced from a herculian range of substances including all three kingdoms of nature animal, mineral and vegetable, for example pyrogen is made from decomposed meat, apis from the bee, thyrodinium from the human thyroid gland and lac human from breast milk. Rhus tox is derived from poision ivy and Sepia comes from the ink of a cuttlefish._
_There are different scales of dilution amongst those the most common is known as the centesimal scale, one out of a hundred. The potencies in this scale are shown in figures [6, 12, 30, 200] which indicate how many times a remedy has been diluted._
_Roman numerals are abbreviated to show higher potencies such as 10m [10,000 dilutions of one in one hundred] Remedies when not in liquid form are prepared by coating the surface on an inert material such as lacrouse_


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## ramasmum

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Well, not always . . . I work for a large healthcare system and we do, indeed, get people in the ER or even hospitalized who have serious electrolyte imbalances, renal problems, etc. from "natural" things they have bought at health stores and consumed in excess. The black cohosh fad a few years ago caused a lot of doctor and hospital visits, trust me. Melatonin is a natural sleep aid, but it also carries a risk of depression. I think people sometimes forget that natural things have elements in them that can throw things off-kilter. For example, aspirin is derived from willow bark. But if you cooked up willow bark and drank it, you really would have no idea how many mg of aspirin you were consuming. And this very natural analgesic also anticoagulates blood. Someone in this thread earlier compared codeine and marijuana, with marijuana being the "natural," yet codeine is a natural alkaloid derivative of the opium poppy, and much safer than the pure form of opium. Commonsense and balance is the key. I have a friend who thinks my year-round use of Frontline on my dog is harsh. Being a history buff, I know that natural little flea caused over 1/3 of the population of Europe to perish from the bubonic plague. Between the two, I choose Frontline. We live in a very safe period of time of medical advancement that makes us forget how common early death was before it. My ancestors were "healers" in the mountains of Virginia and West Virginia in the 1800s and early 1900s and would go out on horseback to treat the ill. Some of their remedies worked (for reasons we now scientifically understand) and some cures were worse than the disease. It's all commonsense, and I'm grateful we live in a period of time with the knowledge to pick and choose.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to draw reference to the original quote in reference to homeopathy, homeopathic remedies are not proven to cause side effects or deaths however as you point out some cures that originate from natural causes do.... however these are not homeopathic remedies and homeopathy is not herbal also even when sourcing natural remedies at a reputable alternate medicine store you must check the ingridients and side effects for that medicine


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> Prophecy, the difference between homeopathy and the examples you listed are that most homeopathic remedies are diluted to the point where it is *mathematically impossible* (not to mention effectively impossible) for even a single atom of the active ingredient to remain. You are, quite literally, doing nothing more than taking a drink of water (or alcohol, depending on what the substance was diluted in).


Actually, mathematically possible, not physically possible. Mathematically, you can dilute successively forever, however, the laws of physics prevent it.




> Homeopathic remedies are often "natural" (doesn't get more natural than good 'ol H2O, eh?) but not all natural remedies are homeopathic.


Homeopathic remedies can be many things, and they can be made from disesaes, vaccines, and many things. They are also made from heavy metals, and some very potent ones are made from snake venom. I guess many of those things are natural, but not what most people think of as "natural".


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## jetscarbie

I just wanted to throw out my experience. Not quite sure what you would classify vitamins as? We use them here in our house.

My hubby has type 2 diabetes. It is very hard for him to keep his levels normal or close to normal. Even with right exercise and food/diet. Just a few weeks ago, his doctor suggested that he take Alpha Lipoci Acid vitamins. It has worked wonders for him. For the first time in a long time....his levels are reading normal.

In some small cases...there is such a thing called "drug Fever" I know firsthand b/c my husband went through this and it almost killed him. From the JAMA


> Most medications can cause fever, with or without concomitant clinical manifestations. The fever may arise from the drug's pharmacologic action, its effects on thermoregulation, a local complication following parenteral administration, or an idiosyncratic response. The most common mechanism is probably an immunologic reaction mediated by drug-induced antibodies. Drug fever may have any pattern; it typically occurs after seven to ten days of treatment and usually resolves within 48 hours of discontinuing the administration. Failure to diagnose drug fever may lead to inappropriate and potentially harmful diagnostic and therapeutic interventions. In suspected cases, it is necessary to discontinue administration of all potentially causative medicines, together or sequentially. Rechallenge with the offending agent will usually cause recurrence of fever within a few hours, confirming the diagnosis.


IMO....I believe in natural meds for some things but I also believe in modern meds. I think the problem starts when MD's write prescriptions for anything and everything. I believe in both cases....over medicating is bad.


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## anniej

*Using homeopathy - some advice*

As a qualified homeopath who runs a busy clinic (for humans) - i have read this thread with interest. The original poster has lumped a range of natural/alternative therepies together under the term 'homeopathy. This is really common - as is stating that none of them work!

Homeopathy is a system of medicine designed to stimulate the body to heal itself. it has been around for 200 years and is one of the most popular systems of medicine in the world (remember pharmacutical based medice is just one system amoung many).

Most people choose to study homeopathy (degree course - 3 years full-time) based on their own positve experience. My course had amoungst its students a bio-chemist and a doctors, and our teachers included several scientists - all off whome had come to homeopathy via personal experience off using the remedies.

i choose to study it out of interest and choose not too engage in the arguement ' homeopathy doesnt work because we cant explain how it works'. I see it work every day in clinic - for me clinical experience is the deciding factor.

With regards to treating animals with homeopathy - I would always recommend seeing an holistic vet who has also trained as a homeopath. Or if no holistic vet in your area - a qualified homeopath. 

The most important thing i recommend is making an 'informed decision' about what health care you choose for your dog (or yourself). if pharmacutical drugs are not working then research and look at alternitives. See a professional - whether you choose to use herbs, nutrition, acupuncture or homeopathy - get in touch with their professional body and find a qualified practitioner in your area. 

for my dog my first port of call is always the vet - i get a dignosis and then make a decision about what method off treatment i will use - often i will go with pharmacutical drugs if i feel it is the best treatment available (but only after researching drug and its side effects).

hope this helps - please feel free to ask me any 'homeopathic questions ' and i will do my best to answer them.


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## Draugr

> ' homeopathy doesnt work because we cant explain how it works'


Wrong.

Homeopathy does not work because we can explain precisely how it _does not_ work.


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## SusiQ

I am a firm believer in some homeopathis remedies - Rescue Remedy for anxiety is one of them - Coca Cola syrup or ginger (as in ginger ale) for nausea is another. When I broke my arm and the doctor said that it would take at least 6 months for my immense hematoma to go down, I used helychrysum oil (one of nature's most powerful antiinflammatory agents) and the swelling was down within a week. Arnica gel works wonders on contusions. Traditional medicine is wonderful - but some homeopathic treatments are wonderful as well.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Homeopathy does not work because we can explain precisely how it _does not_ work.


It's really annoying when people that have no experience whatsoever in an area try to argue about something which they know nothing about. 

It's the elephant in the cave analogy.....we don't have the tools to measure, so there is not a valid argument that says it doesn't work. The science fails at this point, or at least mainstream science. And to pretend that someone understands the science well enough to make this argument, it's just delusions of grandeur....what we can't measure and don't know far outweights what we can measure and what we do know.


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## LisaT

anniej said:


> As a qualified homeopath who runs a busy clinic (for humans) - i have read this thread with interest. .....


How wonderful, welcome to the forum!! Homeopathy has come to the rescue so many times for my animals, it's wonderful stuff. I am very fortunate to have access to a well-trained practitioner who is able to work with animals also undergoing allopathic treatment.


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## LisaT

jetscarbie said:


> I just wanted to throw out my experience. Not quite sure what you would classify vitamins as? We use them here in our house.
> 
> My hubby has type 2 diabetes. It is very hard for him to keep his levels normal or close to normal. Even with right exercise and food/diet. Just a few weeks ago, his doctor suggested that he take Alpha Lipoci Acid vitamins. It has worked wonders for him. For the first time in a long time....his levels are reading normal.
> 
> In some small cases...there is such a thing called "drug Fever" I know firsthand b/c my husband went through this and it almost killed him. From the JAMA
> 
> .....


Alpha Lipoic Acid is great stuff, also good in neurological pain degenerative and pain conditions!

Thanks for posting that about drug fever. Very intersting, and something I hadn't known. Thanks!


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> It's really annoying when people that have no experience whatsoever in an area try to argue about something which they know nothing about.


I agree.

But it is rather...backwards, when _you_ come in here and say that, no?



> It's the elephant in the cave analogy.....we don't have the tools to measure, so there is not a valid argument that says it doesn't work. The science fails at this point, or at least mainstream science. And to pretend that someone understands the science well enough to make this argument, it's just delusions of grandeur....what we can't measure and don't know far outweights what we can measure and what we do know.


No, it has nothing to do with not being able to measure it. We can, and have "measured it" over, and over, and over again, and the massive weight of collective evidence shows it _does not work_. It's a placebo.

A fool's final defense is the pathetic "well we just don't know yet" argument. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard a homeo-nut-path use that tired, ancient excuse, that I'd be out of debt, easy. What you are doing is literally the *exact opposite* of science. You have a conclusion and you are trying to work backwards to find proof for that conclusion. A scientist does not do this. He measures, observes, experiments, records his data, and then makes an inference based on that data.

Believing in homeopathy is like believing the earth is flat. We have the tools and the know-how to completely prove that _wrong_. It's not a matter of "well, we just haven't figured out how the earth is flat" it's that the concept, the very core fundamentals of homeopathy as set forth by Hahnemann, are _completely impossible_ not to mention _laughably insane.

_It is pathetic and disheartening that in this day and age with so much access to information that people would _still_ choose to eschew critical thinking and rational thought in favor of wild flights of fantasy. Homeopaths are the modern-day snake-oil salesman.


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## Dainerra

don't forget. Once it is proven that a homeopathic cure DOES work, it is suddenly medicine and not a homeopathic "placebo" 

Turning To Nature For New Drugs - Pharmacology - an eLab Article at Scientist Live


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## Draugr

Dainerra, natural medicine is a whole different ballpark than homeopathy. When I'm talking about homeopathy I'm talking about the theory developed by Samuel Hahnemann.

Natural medicine, alternative fields, etc, I think are great. Probably holds the biggest potential right now for medical advances.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> I agree.
> 
> But it is rather...backwards, when _you_ come in here and say that, no?....


And, exactly what do you mean by that?

And when was the last time you were involved in high level critical thinking and proof and science? Are you an academic? Or just watch along the sidelines?


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## Draugr

LisaT said:


> And, exactly what do you mean by that?
> 
> And when was the last time you were involved in high level critical thinking and proof and science? Are you an academic? Or just watch along the sidelines?


Regardless of what I am or am not, on this forum, they are just words on a screen, and mean nothing. I have no way to verify my claims and ****personal attack removed by Admin*****if you are willing to accept such claims at face value. It's fallacious ground to argue from, and even worse to pretend a person's claimed qualifications on an internet forum actually mean anything.

As usual you are free to make any wild inferences and imagined claims you like from that. I certainly won't be surprised if you do.

But, I'm not really interested in getting into another pointless bickering fit with you. It's a waste of time and I have far more pleasant things I can spend my time doing, so have a nice day.


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## anniej

How I wish homeopathy was plecebo - I would be able to see so many more clients a day - give them all plecebo - they would get better and i would get rich...!

Just because we do not understand how something works does not work does not mean it does not work. It it did not work people would not use it - they are not stupid - they use it because it works. The majority of people who end up in my clinic room do so not because they have a clue what homeopathy is but because they have tried the pharmacutical route and it has not worked. When there condition improves - do you think they care whether or not 'science can prove homeopathy works'? Off course they dont and neither do I - what I know is that I am able to help people every day with homeopathy and that feels great.


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## Draugr

Again, presuming you are _actually_ talking about homeopathy, and not making a "homeopathy == natural medicine" mistake:

We _do_ understand how homeopathy works, or more specifically, how it _does not_ and how it _can not_, and why people _perceive_ that it works, when it really does not. _Multiple_ clinical trials, trials that have been _repeated_, as well, have definitively proven homeopathy is nothing more than a placebo (a waste of money to find something that patently obvious), _multiple _scientific reviews of said trials, also comparing these to the methodology of standard trials for conventional treatments, have shown it is nothing more than a placebo. There is no debate, except by those with a monetary stake in the game, or those poor souls who have been suckered in by unscrupulous characters while they are emotionally vulnerable.

Not only do you have to explain how your particular brand of snake oil works, in spite of claiming to work much like ancient magics or alchemy were proported to "work," not only are you responsible for explaining how some of the most basic scientific and mathematical theories that have been used for decades to unravel the mysterious of this universe are nothing but garbage, _just so your theory can work_, you have to explain precisely why homeopathy has been repeatedly shown to be _nothing more_ than a placebo. No difference.

There are no "mysteries" to be solved about it. Except why people continue to buy into this.

And yes, people are incredibly stupid and will use any number of things that don't work, and when they are emotional, such as over an illness, it is even worse. Rationality gets thrown out the window in a heartbeat. They see what they want to see. They will cling to minor coincidental effects, infinitesimally tiny improvements, real or imagined, and ignore the collective weight of the evidence. They will fallaciously attribute any improvement to whatever treatment they just tried. Often sick people suckered into this have been rigorously attempting convention medicine which has repeatedly failed - so they turn to insanity. They take a homeopathic remedy, and - oh my, they feel better! How could this be? It must be the homeopathy, right? It couldn't just be the side effects of the conventional medications wearing off now that they've stopped taking them. There couldn't be any other possible explanation, right? Back to the placebo effect - it is an incredibly well-documented phenomena with fairly specific characteristics, ones we know well. Characteristics, interestingly enough, that match up exceptionally well with the results when homeopathy is put to the test.

Again, I stress, what you do, is backwards. You cannot give someone one of your magic potions, see a result, and then claim definitively that the magic potion did the trick. What you have established is a _correlation_ - it is no different than speuter advocates who claim that the _correlation_ between an altered animal and longer lifespan, is caused by them being altered, or the speuter detractors who use the famous rottweiler study to claim that spaying any dog cuts her lifespan by 30%.

Correlations such as these are often explained quite easily and thoroughly by means which do not violate physical constants that have been established fact for hundreds of years or more. Alternative medicinal theories can, and do work. But the difference between many of those, and homeopathy, is that they don't require uprooting and throwing out basic and foundational scientific tenets, and replacing them with some mysterious, magical, stone-age aura.

If you are really a medical practitioner, then I will eat my hat.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> .......If you are really a medical practitioner, then I will eat my hat.


Druagr, there is absolutely no reason to come into this thread and treat people this way, particularly a new member to the forum.

You should be ashamed of yourself. 

Deep breath, let it go.


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## anniej

I would not advice eating hats - not good for your health...although I do know a good homeopathic remedy that could help you if thats what you choose too do!

Calling millions of people 'stupid' because they use a system of medicine which does not fit into your belief system is not exactly 'rational'. Energy based medicine has been around for much longer than pharmacutical medication - 2000 years in the case of acupuncture - and is very popular and successful. At some point in the future it investigators will discover how and why it works - it may not be in our life time but it will happen. Until then people will keep on using it because it helps them - scientifically proven or not.


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## JakodaCD OA

I am all for whatever works..Sometimes there are no explanations for using something thats non traditional , having it work for one person and may not work for another. It tends to be the same for traditional meds, what may work for ME may not work for you. 

Annie, I'm glad your here to, we can always use helpful info on alternative methods.


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## Draugr

anniej said:


> I would not advice eating hats - not good for your health...although I do know a good homeopathic remedy that could help you if thats what you choose too do!
> 
> Calling millions of people 'stupid' because they use a system of medicine which does not fit into your belief system is not exactly 'rational'. Energy based medicine has been around for much longer than pharmacutical medication - 2000 years in the case of acupuncture - and is very popular and successful. At some point in the future it investigators will discover how and why it works - it may not be in our life time but it will happen. Until then people will keep on using it because it helps them - scientifically proven or not.


The problem is not my belief system, the problem is that it does not fit into the world, period. It does not fit into reality any more than unicorns do.

And although what acupuncture is actually successful for - pain management - implies that its success is almost certainly placebo (again, this is what the evidence shows) - I could at least see it actually _doing something_ beyond a placebo effect since, you know, it is...actually doing something, to the body.


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## LisaT

Draugr said:


> The problem is not my belief system, the problem is that it does not fit into the world, period. It does not fit into reality any more than unicorns do.


This is from the point of view of your belief system. However, not based in real life experience, as many people and animals are living examples of it working. 





> And although what acupuncture is actually successful for - pain management - implies that its success is almost certainly placebo (again, this is what the evidence shows) - I could at least see it actually _doing something_ beyond a placebo effect since, you know, it is...actually doing something, to the body.


This too is a very limited way of looking at acupuncture. While being very good at pain management, it does more than this, altering the energy in the body to affect change. It's wonderful for digestive problems too!


We are often limited by our belief systems and/or experiences and what we choose to believe. You choose to believe something, no problem. The problem though is when you make arguements that clearly have an abundance of counterexamples, which then negates the whole foundation of your arguement. 

I usually stay out of these long arguements, because you can't argue away someone's belief system (belief systems don't change in that way). However, for people interested, and maybe someday will need to turn to homeopathy, I don't want sentiments in this thread to go unanswered. 

Samson is a perfect example - he could be greatly helped with homeopathy 

I find sometimes that when our pets are in need, people are willing to question their belief systems to try new things to help. That's how I started with both chiropractic and homeopathy, having nowhere else to trun. Both were absolute lifesavers, and thank goodness that I had veterinarians around me to suGgest them.


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## Anja1Blue

Excellent post Lisa! And of course you are absolutely right - Landmark Education uses a term "already listening" to describe people who have their minds made up ahead of time, their opinions mostly based on hearsay or what they learned from their families, etc. Not based in experience and fact. Frankly it boggles my mind that so many individuals would rather turn themselves and their animals over to modern medicine with its reliance on drugs and their (sometimes) horrific side effects than to - at least initially - investigate and utilize an alternative therapy that works with the body rather than against it. Can homeopathy cure everything? No it can't, and we need allopathic medicine too. But if we aren't talking about a life threatening condition which needs immediate hospitalization, I believe it is a very viable place to start. I can say with certainty that it has helped my dogs and cats tremendously over the years - and I am positive they know NOTHING about placebos or "mind over matter." 

anniej I would also like to add my welcome! There are many of us who will be pleased to benefit from your knowledge.
__________________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## anjum

100% the way I feel about it too. Me, my family & my pets have all been helped by homeopathy over the years. And yeah, animals don't have a sense of "placebo", so how can that work on them? 

And, my life has been saved on a couple of occasions by allopathic medicine, so definitely a place for that too!



Anja1Blue said:


> Frankly it boggles my mind that so many individuals would rather turn themselves and their animals over to modern medicine with its reliance on drugs and their (sometimes) horrific side effects than to - at least initially - investigate and utilize an alternative therapy that works with the body rather than against it. Can homeopathy cure everything? No it can't, and we need allopathic medicine too. But if we aren't talking about a life threatening condition which needs immediate hospitalization, I believe it is a very viable place to start. I can say with certainty that it has helped my dogs and cats tremendously over the years - and I am positive they know NOTHING about placebos or "mind over matter."
> __________________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> Anja SchH3 GSD
> Conor GSD
> Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## ladyfreckles

Homeopathy on humans has, yes, pretty much been proven to be unscientific and ineffective. However, there has not been a significant study done on the effects of homeopathic remedies in the Veterinary world. Thus, we cannot make assumptions about how homeopathy affects our dogs. 

While I too am a science fanatic, the original poster needs to learn to respect other people's beliefs and opinions. It's not hurting you if somebody practices homeopathy. The only time I would ever see it necessary to point it out is if somebody is refusing to admit that they need professional medical help for a condition. That's not the case in this thread.


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## LisaT

_"There have been few studies examining the effectiveness of specific homeopathic remedies in general. In one study of homeopathy for sinusitis, however, more than 80% of the 119 participants had significant improvement in their symptoms after taking the homeopathic remedy for 2 weeks without antibiotics or other medications."_

Sinusitis

(Do note what website is relaying this information.)


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