# E-collar recalls



## mikaK9

I'm just starting to introduce the e-collar to my dog, so I know this might be a little premature, but I have a few questions for down the road.

One is regarding when I reach the stage where my dog understands the recall and the e-collar correction for failing the recall in a backyard type setting. If my dog is highly distracted and fails the recall even with me pushing the constant on the e-collar (which from what I understand means that it might need to be turned up just a little), would I continue keeping the constant correction on as I go to the dog and then let go once I get ahold of the dog (and then turn up the level of stim for the next time)?

Then the second question would be similar, but in a police trial bitework setting. If my dog runs after the decoy and fails to recall, should I hold the constant button down, even while my dog is on the sleeve and until I can get to him? Wondering how that works with his bite. The only other option I guess I see is to let go of the constant button once he's on the bite (which could also be confusing) and go get him and turn up the level a little and try again. I don't want to give him a negative while he's on the bite, but at the same time, don't want him to get away with failing a recall and think he's safe once he gets to the decoy.

I guess that raises a third question for me. When my dog is doing well on recalls in the backyard setting, even under intense distractions, and I move to using it in a trial bitework setting......should I have him on a long line to start with all over again? I don't think his level of distraction will be higher than it is in the backyard when a neighbor's dog is out, but it will be a different setting.


----------



## DFrost

My advice is; first read Lou Castles website re; use of e-collar. Then, I'd engage in conversation with him. Just a suggestion.

DFrost


----------



## Dohhhhh

My first recommendation would be to actually train with a trainer proficient in the use of e-collars. There is much to be learned besides strapping on the collar and pushing the button. One needs to know WHICH collar is right for their dog. They are not all the same. One needs to learn proper fitting of the collar. A collar too loose will not work as it should. A collar too tight can cause sores. Where to put the contact points on the dog is also important. I was trained never ever to put the stimulation box on the back of the neck. Next is correct stimulation level. If the stimulation is too low, you will not get the results you seek. If it is too high, the collar itself can become the distraction or you could actually cause the dog real pain.

If you cannot find a remote collar trainer, or just for additional information on e-collar training, do read the articles on Lou Castle’s website. He is a wealth of information. I enjoyed reading them and learned from them.

I was taught to use the nick button (and verbal command) for every command that I gave the dog, not just the command that the dog failed to perform. My instructor said that the whole point was to teach the dog to be voice conscious. I wanted the dog to listen to the command and perform it each and every time, not just when the collar was on or the dog was afraid of a correction. Next, I needed to make sure that the dog fully understood the command. Commands were taught in baby steps and if it appeared the dog was confused, I took a step backward. I was also taught not to give a command that I could not enforce. In the beginning, everything was taught on leash or long line so that I could “help” the dog until the command was performed each and every time without the “help”.

My instructor believed that obedience was the key to a great working dog. My two shepherd’s obedience had to be impeccable before I could move on to bite work. A couple of exercises I did with them was during play sessions. In the beginning, each was on a 100 ft long line. I would throw a ball and then have them return to me or sit in midst of the chase for the ball. When we first started, I needed to use the long line to stop them. They were also taught to spit the toy or article out on command.

With my dogs and our client’s dogs, I have found that if the e-collar training has been done correctly and the obedience is there, the distraction(s) matters not. The dog will perform the commands given because they have learned to be voice conscious not collar conscious.


----------



## mikaK9

Thanks for the input.

I actually already have a collar and have been getting him used to wearing it. I'm just starting the beginning steps of training with it now. And I've read the articles on Lou Castle's website. It's great info and that's exactly what I'm going off of. Maybe I missed something that would answer these questions, but I didn't think so, since they're kind of specific.

I'm just anticipating that this specific dog will need to have the level of stim turned up a bit with specific higher distractions. This is mostly based on the levels of correction he takes from me on a pinch collar. If we're in an obedience setting or low distraction, he's very soft with me and too much correction on a pinch (from me) will shut him down. However, in a bitework setting, increase that level of correction about fivefold and you will get to him. With his highest distractions, a very hard correction on a pinch collar will stop the behavior and give me better results that same day.....but try it a different day and those corrections I gave him don't seem to be in his memory. Which is one reason I'm looking forward to the ecollar. I think it will be the best thing for him. More of an instant correction at a decided level; he decides when to make it stop (once he's fully trained using a long line of course); and there should be less conflict between he and I (right now he wants to avoid me when he fails a recall under high distraction and it turns into a game of chase). I feel like I'm just banging my head against the same wall over and over with no positive changes. He does great recalls with positive training and with some low to moderate distractions, but all the corrections in the world on a pinch collar don't seem to be getting me anywhere with higher distractions. Which is unacceptable for a police dog.

I saw that Lou had checked this site and was hoping he might answer too......maybe I'll take the advice of emailing him directly and get his thoughts. I just wanted to address what I see as a potential issue and find out what to do ahead of time, rather than get to that point, have it happen, and then write about whether I messed up or what I should have done different. This is a whole new area for me....lots of learning to go


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9there should be less conflict between he and I (right now he wants to avoid me when he fails a recall under high distraction and it turns into a game of chase). I feel like I'm just banging my head against the same wall over and over with no positive changes. He does great recalls with positive training and with some low to moderate distractions, but all the corrections in the world on a pinch collar don't seem to be getting me anywhere with higher distractions. Which is unacceptable for a police dog.
> 
> I saw that Lou had checked this site and was hoping he might answer too......maybe I'll take the advice of emailing him directly and get his thoughts. I just wanted to address what I see as a potential issue and find out what to do ahead of time, rather than get to that point, have it happen, and then write about whether I messed up or what I should have done different. This is a whole new area for me....lots of learning to go


Yes, emailing Lou is a very good idea. 

In the mean time, try to stop chasing him. By chasing him, your playing a game on his terms when he should be obeying on your terms. Try letting him drag a long line or long leash at all times. Call him to you using stim and use of the leash to pull him to you until he comes in readily without use of the leash/long line. As your calling him in, continue use of stim (push the button much like you would as if using a bic lighter) and your recall command (come or whatever) until he is all the way in to you. Once he comes all the way in, stop stimulation and praise heck out of him.

Your right about distractions. During the learning phases, under greater distraction you may find yourself needing to up the stimulation to get his attention. Just remember that once you have his attention, the stimulation can come back down to his normal working level.

<span style="color: #FF6666">He does great recalls with positive training and with some low to moderate distractions, but all the corrections in the world on a pinch collar don't seem to be getting me anywhere with higher distractions.</span>

You should find that once he is totally collar literate and voice conscious, this will change







Your already on the correct trail. Your asking questions and you recoginize that there IS more to e-collar training than putting the collar on and pushing the button.

Good luck in your training.


----------



## mikaK9

Thanks....

and I know there's much more to it than just pushing the button. In fact, I think that's part of why it's taken me so long to adjust to the concept of even using an e-collar. Lou's website helped me make that final adjustment. I was sold after reading the article on finding the working level stim of the dog. Very different from my concept of e-collar training from watching others. Makes a lot of sense.

And I haven't even begun a recall with the collar yet. So the work I've done is on and off lead with and without a pinch collar. And the game of chase....I guess I meant it kinda loosely. I completely agree that it's just a bad idea all around to chase a dog around. Turns into a very big game for them. For us, it's just been me going to him in a steady way, and him trying to avoid me. It doesn't take much for me to get him, but I can see the relationship damage. The long line helps a lot, but at some point it has to be taken off. He always does well with it on. It's when he knows it's off that things get tricky under high distraction. Like you said, I think the e-collar will help with that a lot. We still have a ways til we get to that point too. Today was just finding his working level.


----------



## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: Tracie
> My instructor believed that obedience was the key to a great working dog. My two shepherd’s obedience had to be impeccable before I could move on to bite work. A couple of exercises I did with them was during play sessions. In the beginning, each was on a 100 ft long line. I would throw a ball and then have them return to me or sit in midst of the chase for the ball. When we first started, I needed to use the long line to stop them. They were also taught to spit the toy or article out on command.


Tracie,

What type of bitework training did this trainer do with your dogs? I have not heard of that much OB prior to protection work of any kind, but reading your methodology with the e-collar and advice you obviously know training. I'm looking to learn different approaches. Was it all in defense? Was there a foundation in prey? Thanks for any explanation.


----------



## DFrost

"I have not heard of that much OB prior to protection work"

I've trained police working dogs for more years than I care to remember. In my program, OB is always the first step. It lays the foundation for control in every aspect of training. 

DFrost


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9Thanks....
> 
> and I know there's much more to it than just pushing the button. In fact, I think that's part of why it's taken me so long to adjust to the concept of even using an e-collar. Lou's website helped me make that final adjustment. I was sold after reading the article on finding the working level stim of the dog. Very different from my concept of e-collar training from watching others. Makes a lot of sense.
> 
> And I haven't even begun a recall with the collar yet. So the work I've done is on and off lead with and without a pinch collar. And the game of chase....I guess I meant it kinda loosely. I completely agree that it's just a bad idea all around to chase a dog around. Turns into a very big game for them. For us, it's just been me going to him in a steady way, and him trying to avoid me. It doesn't take much for me to get him, but I can see the relationship damage. The long line helps a lot, but at some point it has to be taken off. He always does well with it on. It's when he knows it's off that things get tricky under high distraction. Like you said, I think the e-collar will help with that a lot. We still have a ways til we get to that point too. Today was just finding his working level.


I do hope you did not take my post as an insult to your intelligence







It certainly was not meant to be. Alot is lost in typing verses face to face or phone conversation. I have been training with the e-collar about 3 years now and it never ceases to amaze me the number of people that think all problems will be instantly solved by strapping on that e-collar. It happens to be those people that make it so difficult for responsible trainers to get many people over the "shock" collar phobia







So many people cannot grasp the concept that an e collar can be used in a positive way. The level of stim, if done correctly, is at such a low level the dog really is not in any pain.

Yes the long line does eventually have to go. I cannot imagine a police dog running down a suspect with a 100 ft leash







The long line is just one of several stepping stones to acheiving our goal...stop the dog dead in its tracks no matter what. Another little trick of the trade....just put the snap minus the line on his collar. For the moment, trick him into "thinking" he has a long line on. Once you see that works, use smaller and smaller snaps until you do not need one any longer.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Tracie
> My instructor believed that obedience was the key to a great working dog. My two shepherd’s obedience had to be impeccable before I could move on to bite work. A couple of exercises I did with them was during play sessions. In the beginning, each was on a 100 ft long line. I would throw a ball and then have them return to me or sit in midst of the chase for the ball. When we first started, I needed to use the long line to stop them. They were also taught to spit the toy or article out on command.
> 
> 
> 
> Tracie,
> 
> What type of bitework training did this trainer do with your dogs? I have not heard of that much OB prior to protection work of any kind, but reading your methodology with the e-collar and advice you obviously know training. I'm looking to learn different approaches. Was it all in defense? Was there a foundation in prey? Thanks for any explanation.
Click to expand...

Hi John,

My remote collar mentor was a retired K9 officer. He trains police dogs in New Jersey as well as personal protection dogs. I also was instructed under the watchful eye of another retired police officer who after his retirement went to WI to Robin McFarland's E-Collar School. Yet another mentor attended Fred Hassens E-Collar School.

With my dogs, we did mostly personal protection. I attended the DVG club for a while but really had no interest in competing with my dogs. I also paid close attention when the K9 Officers were training at the facility with their dogs and even closer attention during Police Dog Handling seminars


----------



## mikaK9

> Quote:I do hope you did not take my post as an insult to your intelligence It certainly was not meant to be. Alot is lost in typing verses face to face or phone conversation.


Absolutely not







In fact it's good you're trying to make sure people know what they're getting into. What you wrote about is exactly why it has taken me so long to come around to the e-collar. I've just seen too many people with poor ecollar training and dogs that are being/have been damaged from it. That's why it was so refreshing to me to read Lou's article about finding the working level of the dog. Completely different than I ever thought about the ecollar.

About the OB and bitework....an interesting take on it is from people I know who judge police trials often. I've heard from more than a few that they can tell whether the dog will recall, false start, etc. from the way the handler walks onto the field with the dog.....because the level of OB shows right from the start. If the dog doesn't have good OB going into it, good luck w/ the distraction of a decoy running downfield


----------



## StGeorgeK9

Tracie,
It's really nice to read confirmations on the way my own trainer has worked the e-collar in with my dog, I never would have tried this on my own, I will read the web site you listed as I am interested deeply now that I realize I'm not going to damage my dog by my ignorance. My trainer has been very helpful.


----------



## Dohhhhh

mikaK9 said:


> Quote:
> About the OB and bitework....an interesting take on it is from people I know who judge police trials often. I've heard from more than a few that they can tell whether the dog will recall, false start, etc. from the way the handler walks onto the field with the dog.....because the level of OB shows right from the start. If the dog doesn't have good OB going into it, good luck w/ the distraction of a decoy running downfield
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true. Also, and e-collar trainer can spot an e-collar trained dog from a mile away too. While e-collars are not permitted in the police trials I have attended, you certainly can tell the e-collar trained dogs from the ones not e-collar trained. The level that the e-collar trained dog can focus on it's handler is amazing and you can almost guarantee a near perfect performance. (Spoken from my own first hand experience)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I so enjoy watching the police dog trials!
Click to expand...


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: BetsyTracie,
> It's really nice to read confirmations on the way my own trainer has worked the e-collar in with my dog, I never would have tried this on my own, I will read the web site you listed as I am interested deeply now that I realize I'm not going to damage my dog by my ignorance. My trainer has been very helpful.


The results are really outstanding and so long as it is done properly, e-collars are not harmful to the dog. 

Please do visit Lou Castle's website. He really is awesome


----------



## big_dog7777

DFrost, 

Few people that post here need to qualify themselves any less than you do. That is exactly what I was looking to learn, and why I asked for details. The few PSD trainers/handlers I have been around also trained for SchH, so the methodology and development of the dogs seems to be done differently. So I gather the protection work is mostly all done in defense?


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9One is regarding when I reach the stage where my dog understands the recall and the e-collar correction for failing the recall in a backyard type setting. If my dog is highly distracted and fails the recall even with me pushing the constant on the e-collar (which from what I understand means that it might need to be turned up just a little), would I continue keeping the constant correction on as I go to the dog and then let go once I get ahold of the dog (and then turn up the level of stim for the next time)?


Reading ahead I see that you've ready my articles and are using my methods. The answer is "Yes, you'd increase the stim level." Do so a little at a time until you see some response from the dog. It may be that he recalls or just an ear flick. As soon as he turns away from the distraction, take your finger off the button. I'd stay at the same level (his working level, where he first feels the stim when at rest) unless you see that it loses its effect. If that happens go up slightly. If you see the distraction present increase the stim a little in anticipation of him needing a slightly higher level at to catch up to his level of distraction. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 Then the second question would be similar, but in a police trial bitework setting. If my dog runs after the decoy and fails to recall, should I hold the constant button down, even while my dog is on the sleeve and until I can get to him?


There's no need to "get to him." I suggest that you use the recall command and stay back. With most dogs that have been through conventional training, when you approach, they anticipate the out and bite harder. Some will "get growly." Some will spin around to the other side of the decoy, so you can't get to the leash to correct him. With the Ecollar and the recall command, there's no need to. Stand back, give the command at the same time that you press the button and wait for him to come to you. If he doesn't then increase the stim level a bit until you see that he's feeling it. 

If he fights this, let me know and I'll give you another method that I can just about guarantee will work with him. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 I guess that raises a third question for me. When my dog is doing well on recalls in the backyard setting, even under intense distractions, and I move to using it in a trial bitework setting......should I have him on a long line to start with all over again?


Once he's working well on the recall from the bite you can start giving him other commands off the bite, the down or the sit. You can recall him, let him come back a few feet and send him for another bite or you can down him, or anything else that you want. 



> Originally Posted By: TracieI was trained never ever to put the stimulation box on the back of the neck.


What reason were you given for this? I do it sometimes. Usually when teaching the down. 



> Originally Posted By: Tracie I was taught to use the nick button (and verbal command) for every command that I gave the dog, not just the command that the dog failed to perform.


At some point you want to stop giving the stim with the command. If for no other reason than sometimes you may not have the Ecollar on the dog or it might not work. My experience with this has been that if you constantly give the stim with the command, and never vary from this, the stim "becomes part of the command." And if, for any reason, you don't give the stim the dog won't obey. It's not that he's disobeying it's that the stim has become "part of the picture" and the dog thinks it's part of the situation. As we know, if a situation changes, the dog may not obey. The context has changed and dogs are contextual learners. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 And I've read the articles on Lou Castle's website. It's great info and that's exactly what I'm going off of. Maybe I missed something that would answer these questions, but I didn't think so, since they're kind of specific.


You didn't miss anything there Mika, it's just that the articles were mostly written in a general sort of way so that anyone, a police dog handler, a SAR dog handler or a pet owner, could use them. I didn't get too specific to give the articles broader appeal. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9I'm just anticipating that this specific dog will need to have the level of stim turned up a bit with specific higher distractions.


Most dogs will need higher levels when they're distracted. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9This is mostly based on the levels of correction he takes from me on a pinch collar.


There's no connection between how a dog responds to a pinch collar (or any other correction device for that matter) and how he'll respond to stim; but any dog who's distracted will need a higher level of stim because he won't feel the basic working level. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9but all the corrections in the world on a pinch collar don't seem to be getting me anywhere with higher distractions.
> 
> Using higher and higher levels of physical corrections (those that come from a leash and correction collar) will cause all sorts of conflict that will cause problems down the road.
> 
> I saw that Lou had checked this site and was hoping he might answer too......maybe I'll take the advice of emailing him directly and get his thoughts.


If anyone has a question feel free to email me privately. I prefer to answer these questions on the forum though, so that other people can give their advice. I don't have all the answers and can learn, just like everyone else. If I don't jump in to the thread fairly quickly (a few days) just drop me an email and let me know that the discussion is going on. BTW that's how I got here today. 



> Originally Posted By: TracieIn the mean time, try to stop chasing him. By chasing him, your playing a game on his terms when he should be obeying on your terms. Try letting him drag a long line or long leash at all times. Call him to you using stim and use of the leash to pull him to you until he comes in readily without use of the leash/long line.


Good advice. 



> Originally Posted By: TracieAs your calling him in, continue use of stim (push the button much like you would as if using a bic lighter) and your recall command (come or whatever) until he is all the way in to you. Once he comes all the way in, stop stimulation and praise heck out of him.


Stimming a dog all the way in is really an advanced technique for me. I prefer to just give a continuous stim until he turns and starts towards me. Then I get off the button. Only when he's doing this very well will I give a stim all the way in. And I only do that once in a while.


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDWhat type of bitework training did this trainer do with your dogs? I have not heard of that much OB prior to protection work of any kind


This varies form country to country. Here (in the US) it's common to teach OB either before bitework or at least along with it. In Europe it's often done the other way round, with bite work being taught first and OB often not taught for at least a year, sometimes longer. 

One reason for this is that in the US we have a "contingency-fee" basis to pay lawyers who sue people (and LE agencies), even if the suit is frivolous. In Europe that's not the case. (This may have changed, I haven't kept up with changes in the law there). There, you have to be able to pay your lawyer up front, before the case is taken. That tends to cut down on the number of lawsuits. And so here we tend to emphasize control to a larger degree. (Of course there are exceptions and some European countries makes us look like the old west as far as political correctness goes). 

Part of the reason for this is that conventional methods of teaching OB, those that have a lot of conflict inherent in them, often weaken the dog's bitework. If you do this before the dog really understands what's expected of him during the bite, it makes it difficult to build him back up and some may never make it. Many handlers walk a teeter-totter with control and quality of the bite all the time. If they emphasize control, as they should, the quality of the bite suffers and vice versa. 

But the Ecollar can be used to eliminate almost all of this conflict and so the bite work does not suffer. In fact, since the dog thinks he's always on the handler's "good side" it may even improve.


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDThe few PSD trainers/handlers I have been around also trained for SchH, so the methodology and development of the dogs seems to be done differently. So I gather the protection work is mostly all done in defense?


I'm not David but this is another topic that I'm interested in. This might make a better discussion in a separate thread. If you decide to go there, please let me know. 

I do little work in defense. I think that there are three combat drives, those that have the dog biting someone to support himself or the pack. 

One is prey drive. This is mostly visually stimulated, absent an association that has been made, and consists of the chasing, catching, killing and eating of prey. It's part of survival, because dogs must eat to live. 

Another is defense drive. Here the dog is defending himself or the pack from a perceived threat. Note that it does not have to be an _actual threat. _ As long as the dog thinks there's a threat, defense drive can be involved. 

The one that I look for and use for the most part is fight drive. It's fairly rare these days and many people have never seen it, so they question its existence. It has the dog detaining or driving off an opponent. It gives a calm, confident dog, the type I prefer for LE work as well as personal protection. 

It's hard to find a dog that has a pronounced level of fight drive these days. Fifty years ago, I'm told they were more common. But trainers of sport dogs (the source for most police dogs in the US these days) discovered that prey drive gave a dog that _looked more intense _than a dog that worked out of fight drive. And since the sports are based on how a dog looks, rather than what he's thinking and how he got there, they bred more for prey drive than for fight drive and so it's much less common now. 

This is not to slight sport work, but while it looks the same, it's not.


----------



## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: LouCastlePart of the reason for this is that conventional methods of teaching OB, those that have a lot of conflict inherent in them, often weaken the dog's bitework. If you do this before the dog really understands what's expected of him during the bite, it makes it difficult to build him back up and some may never make it. Many handlers walk a teeter-totter with control and quality of the bite all the time. If they emphasize control, as they should, the quality of the bite suffers and vice versa.
> 
> But the Ecollar can be used to eliminate almost all of this conflict and so the bite work does not suffer. In fact, since the dog thinks he's always on the handler's "good side" it may even improve.


Lou,

This is exactly what I was wondering. Thank you for taking the time to provide in depth explanation.


----------



## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleI'm not David but this is another topic that I'm interested in. This might make a better discussion in a separate thread. If you decide to go there, please let me know.
> 
> I do little work in defense. I think that there are three combat drives, those that have the dog biting someone to support himself or the pack.
> 
> One is prey drive. This is mostly visually stimulated, absent an association that has been made, and consists of the chasing, catching, killing and eating of prey. It's part of survival, because dogs must eat to live.
> 
> Another is defense drive. Here the dog is defending himself or the pack from a perceived threat. Note that it does not have to be an _actual threat. _ As long as the dog thinks there's a threat, defense drive can be involved.
> 
> The one that I look for and use for the most part is fight drive. It's fairly rare these days and many people have never seen it, so they question its existence. It has the dog detaining or driving off an opponent. It gives a calm, confident dog, the type I prefer for LE work as well as personal protection.
> 
> It's hard to find a dog that has a pronounced level of fight drive these days. Fifty years ago, I'm told they were more common. But trainers of sport dogs (the source for most police dogs in the US these days) discovered that prey drive gave a dog that _looked more intense _than a dog that worked out of fight drive. And since the sports are based on how a dog looks, rather than what he's thinking and how he got there, they bred more for prey drive than for fight drive and so it's much less common now.
> 
> This is not to slight sport work, but while it looks the same, it's not.


This is a fascinating topic to me, especially since there seems to be such a variance in how PSD, PPD, and SchH prospects are developed within each group. From what I've learned over the last year, modern SchH methodology seems to focus on teaching all exercises at a young age using prey, with some trainers transitioning to more "serious" work in defense/fight as the dog matures provided the dog inherently has those drives in them. I would gather that progression would not always be effective for PSD or PPD prospects since most of the time a dog cannot be evaluated for that work until closer to maturity and therefore would be a waste of time and resources due to the wash out rate unless the individual handler was training for both sport and street. I used to have a lot of assumptions and opinions about training in defense and fight drive, but it seems the more I see and learn... the less I "know" due to there not being much black and white and lots of gray in these types of training. It seems virtually any methodology can be effective and even positive to a certain type of dog when trained properly, and conversly ineffective and negative with the wrong dog when trained improperly.

To echo others, your experience and different perspective is welcome. Balance is a good thing.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: TracieI was trained never ever to put the stimulation box on the back of the neck.
> 
> 
> 
> What reason were you given for this? I do it sometimes. Usually when teaching the down.
Click to expand...

My instructor said it was much like having someone slap you in the back of the head with a board. We were taught not to use the e-collar on the back of the neck except on the rare occasions that we were training a dog that was extremely vicious or a true knuckle head. I remember only putting the e-collar on the back of the neck of one dog in the 3 years I have been training with one.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Tracie I was taught to use the nick button (and verbal command) for every command that I gave the dog, not just the command that the dog failed to perform.
> 
> 
> 
> At some point you want to stop giving the stim with the command. If for no other reason than sometimes you may not have the Ecollar on the dog or it might not work. My experience with this has been that if you constantly give the stim with the command, and never vary from this, the stim "becomes part of the command." And if, for any reason, you don't give the stim the dog won't obey. It's not that he's disobeying it's that the stim has become "part of the picture" and the dog thinks it's part of the situation. As we know, if a situation changes, the dog may not obey. The context has changed and dogs are contextual learners.
Click to expand...

I should have explained this in more depth.







My explanation was for the beginning stages of e-collar training where consistency is of extreme importance







Many times, our clients will stop pushing the button after a week or two of training, well before the dog is ready for that type of inconsistency.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: TracieAs your calling him in, continue use of stim (push the button much like you would as if using a bic lighter) and your recall command (come or whatever) until he is all the way in to you. Once he comes all the way in, stop stimulation and praise heck out of him.
> 
> 
> 
> Stimming a dog all the way in is really an advanced technique for me. I prefer to just give a continuous stim until he turns and starts towards me. Then I get off the button. Only when he's doing this very well will I give a stim all the way in. And I only do that once in a while.
Click to expand...

One trainer I worked with did it using the method you explained. Another did it in the manner that I explained and yet another would give a tap and the command, if the dog started toward him with "momentum" he would not tap the button or say a command but if the dog slowed or veered off course he would again tap and say the command. He used this method until the dog was all the way in.


I am so glad your on this board. I learned much from your website and learned new ideas and concepts from this very thread as well. I hope you will continue to post your thoughts and experiences!


----------



## DFrost

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDDFrost,
> 
> The few PSD trainers/handlers I have been around also trained for SchH, so the methodology and development of the dogs seems to be done differently. So I gather the protection work is mostly all done in defense?


I agree there is a significant difference in methodology between sport (most sport anyway) and police service dogs. While terminology can be, in my mind at least, be easily misunderstood, for my own sanity I keep it simple. ha ha. The word "defense" is novel to me. I rarely use it except in a negative manner. I do know that it means different things to different people. I'm a believer in "fight drive". I fully understand that is an argument unto itself. At any rate. I believe much of PSD work is done in prey, then extends into fight. It is my reasoning for having a foundation in obediance prior to starting any bite work. It controls the prey drive, which I would hope since we are trying to train this dog to pursue, engage and hold, the drive is quite high. Also, in my opinion, having solid obediance gives the handler and the dog a safe place to retreat. An area of training the dog feels comfortable performing. Plus the control needed in the controlled aggression part of training is nothing more than adding on to what the dog has already learned. 

DFrost


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: TracieMy instructor said it was much like having someone slap you in the back of the head with a board. We were taught not to use the e-collar on the back of the neck except on the rare occasions that we were training a dog that was extremely vicious or a true knuckle head. I remember only putting the e-collar on the back of the neck of one dog in the 3 years I have been training with one.


I've never heard this before. I can't figure out why a low level stim would be like "a slap on the back of the head with a board" but it would be any different on the front of the neck. Is your trainer open to you asking him about this? I'd like to hear what he has to say about it. 

I've had anti-Ecollar people tell me that it's dangerous to do this because the stim could affect the dog's spinal column but this is just so much nonsense.


----------



## LouCastle

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: At some point you want to stop giving the stim with the command. If for no other reason than sometimes you may not have the Ecollar on the dog or it might not work. My experience with this has been that if you constantly give the stim with the command, and never vary from this, the stim "becomes part of the command." And if, for any reason, you don't give the stim the dog won't obey. It's not that he's disobeying it's that the stim has become "part of the picture" and the dog thinks it's part of the situation. As we know, if a situation changes, the dog may not obey. The context has changed and dogs are contextual learners.





> Originally Posted By: TracieI should have explained this in more depth. My explanation was for the beginning stages of e-collar training where consistency is of extreme importance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many times, our clients will stop pushing the button after a week or two of training, well before the dog is ready for that type of inconsistency.


OK. Now it makes more sense and I agree with you 100%. There's something that many people do with their training. I call it the _"Let's see how he's doing" _phenomenon. At way too early in their training, they'll test their progress. 

At the earliest stages of training, as you said, you want the dog to think that the stim is inevitable, that it comes with EVERY command. But if you test this too soon, before the dog owns the behavior, it teaches him that sometimes it comes and sometimes it doesn't. Since dogs have their own agendas, most of them will gamble that "this time" it won't happen, if the payoff, the distraction, is rewarding enough. If that's the time you choose NOT to press the button, you've taught the dog something that he may never forget. And you'll wind up with a dog that's not as reliable as he might have been. 

It's very common and it's VERY difficult to get people not to do this. They want to see how their training is going along and they don't understand that it almost certainly will cause problems later on.


----------



## LouCastle

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Stimming a dog all the way in is really an advanced technique for me. I prefer to just give a continuous stim until he turns and starts towards me. Then I get off the button. Only when he's doing this very well will I give a stim all the way in. And I only do that once in a while.





> Originally Posted By: TracieOne trainer I worked with did it using the method you explained. Another did it in the manner that I explained and yet another would give a tap and the command, if the dog started toward him with "momentum" he would not tap the button or say a command but _ if the dog slowed or veered off course he would again tap and say the command. He used this method until the dog was all the way in. _ (Emphasis added)


I do this too. If the dog slows or veers off I'll hit the button. Remember that I'm using continuous and one of these trainers is using a tap. I hold the button down until the dog speeds up or gets back on track. If the dog shows confusion and doesn't do either, it's a sign that some intermediate steps have been skipped and the trainer needs to back up a bit.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleEarlier I wrote,
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Stimming a dog all the way in is really an advanced technique for me. I prefer to just give a continuous stim until he turns and starts towards me. Then I get off the button. Only when he's doing this very well will I give a stim all the way in. And I only do that once in a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: TracieOne trainer I worked with did it using the method you explained. Another did it in the manner that I explained and yet another would give a tap and the command, if the dog started toward him with "momentum" he would not tap the button or say a command but _ if the dog slowed or veered off course he would again tap and say the command. He used this method until the dog was all the way in. _ (Emphasis added)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do this too. If the dog slows or veers off I'll hit the button. Remember that I'm using continuous and one of these trainers is using a tap. I hold the button down until the dog speeds up or gets back on track. If the dog shows confusion and doesn't do either, it's a sign that some intermediate steps have been skipped and the trainer needs to back up a bit.
Click to expand...

Ok, I have to ask...do you EVER do seminars on the East Coast?


----------



## Dohhhhh

You Wrote 

"I've never heard this before. I can't figure out why a low level stim would be like "a slap on the back of the head with a board" but it would be any different on the front of the neck. Is your trainer open to you asking him about this? I'd like to hear what he has to say about it."

The trainer always told his students that the back of the neck was the most sensative area and to avoid using the e-collar there. I will talk to him in detail about it this Saturday.


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: TracieOk, I have to ask...do you EVER do seminars on the East Coast?


I've been there quite a few times but have no plans for the near future. But I'll go just about anywhere that people want me for a seminar. Heck I went to Minnesota when it was 11 below! 

If you want details as to how I work seminars, let's do it privately as I feel too commercial in public. Email is better than PM's.


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: TracieThe trainer always told his students that the back of the neck was the most sensative area and to avoid using the e-collar there. I will talk to him in detail about it this Saturday.


I've never noticed this and I'm a science kinda guy so I did an experiment with all four of my dogs. I put the Ecollar on them with the box on top of their neck. Then I started from zero to find the level of stim that they first felt. 

All four they felt it at the same level as when the box is off to the bottom-left side of their neck, where it usually winds up. Next I moved the box to that position and tried a couple of other positions as well. The response from each dog was the same. They felt the stim at the same level on the front, sides and back of their necks. Three of these dogs are GSD's and one is a Belgian Shep. 

I'm not saying that you're trainer is wrong, only that my experience is different.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: TracieThe trainer always told his students that the back of the neck was the most sensative area and to avoid using the e-collar there. I will talk to him in detail about it this Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never noticed this and I'm a science kinda guy so I did an experiment with all four of my dogs. I put the Ecollar on them with the box on top of their neck. Then I started from zero to find the level of stim that they first felt.
> 
> All four they felt it at the same level as when the box is off to the bottom-left side of their neck, where it usually winds up. Next I moved the box to that position and tried a couple of other positions as well. The response from each dog was the same. They felt the stim at the same level on the front, sides and back of their necks. Three of these dogs are GSD's and one is a Belgian Shep.
> 
> I'm not saying that you're trainer is wrong, only that my experience is different.
Click to expand...

I find this most interesting. It never crossed my mind to test the theory







but then science never was my strong point LOL I was told not to, I did question as to why, was given an answer that sounded plausible and let it drop. Now I am curious.


----------



## mikaK9

> Quote:Stand back, give the command at the same time that you press the button and wait for him to come to you. If he doesn't then increase the stim level a bit until you see that he's feeling it.
> 
> If he fights this, let me know and I'll give you another method that I can just about guarantee will work with him.


That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the help.....with all of the info. I'm still very much in the beginning with my dog, but as you can tell, I like to get the "big picture" from the start. I find I tend to make less training errors that way.

When you talk about turning up the stim level, I'm curious how much you're thinking. I've got the Dogtra1700 NCP. I had a tough time finding his working level, as he is easily distracted and just seemed difficult with this...very subtle. At one point, it seemed like I had found the level, but then I wasn't sure. It was almost as if it was an involuntary muscle response...with a neck muscle shifting just slightly and I could barely see the tip of his ear shift with it. (This was at about 21). I tried it again and nothing. So I went up from there and nothing. I didn't get anything more until 36, but I did get a slight reaction there where I know he felt it. I'm not sure about the 21 part or what was going on there.

So....if his working level is 36, how much is in range to turn it up? Just wondering how high I should go if he doesn't respond at that. I'm hoping he would respond if it were turned up very slightly, but I'm wondering what my end range should be just in case he doesn't and I need to contact you for that other method.

Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## StGeorgeK9

This is an awesome thread, Lou you have been a wealth of information and your web site is very helpful, even for an ecollar newbie such as myself. I will second the question on east coast seminars, my trainer is very good with the ecollar and is helpful in everything, but your explanations cement everything I have learned from him and help me understand even better why it works! Lou, your website has become my favorite training site.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Stand back, give the command at the same time that you press the button and wait for him to come to you. If he doesn't then increase the stim level a bit until you see that he's feeling it.
> 
> If he fights this, let me know and I'll give you another method that I can just about guarantee will work with him.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the help.....with all of the info. I'm still very much in the beginning with my dog, but as you can tell, I like to get the "big picture" from the start. I find I tend to make less training errors that way.
> 
> When you talk about turning up the stim level, I'm curious how much you're thinking. I've got the Dogtra1700 NCP. I had a tough time finding his working level, as he is easily distracted and just seemed difficult with this...very subtle. At one point, it seemed like I had found the level, but then I wasn't sure. It was almost as if it was an involuntary muscle response...with a neck muscle shifting just slightly and I could barely see the tip of his ear shift with it. (This was at about 21). I tried it again and nothing. So I went up from there and nothing. I didn't get anything more until 36, but I did get a slight reaction there where I know he felt it. I'm not sure about the 21 part or what was going on there.
> 
> So....if his working level is 36, how much is in range to turn it up? Just wondering how high I should go if he doesn't respond at that. I'm hoping he would respond if it were turned up very slightly, but I'm wondering what my end range should be just in case he doesn't and I need to contact you for that other method.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help!
Click to expand...

When I am working a dog, I don’t even look at where the dial is. You need to pay attention to the dog and it's responses to the level of stim. The dog may work at 16 in the morning and be at 65 in the afternoon. It is all dependant on the dog and its attention/distraction level.

If you have a dog that almost always works at a low level and suddenly the dog does not pay any attention and you have turned the collar up and turned it up (will go into proper stim level adjustments next) the first step I would take would be to make sure the collar is turned on (put your hand over the box on the dogs neck and tap the page button, this vibrates the collar) If the collar is on, next make sure the collar is not too loose.

When finding the dogs working level, I tap the button as I give the dog the command, if the dog ignores the command I turn the dial up ONE click, tap the button give the command, if the dog ignores the command, I turn the dial up ONE CLICK, tap the button, give the command.......this I do until I reach the level in which the dog responds. It may be 20 it may be 75 but THAT is the level that the dog needs at THAT moment.

I use the same procedure when using the continuous button. I have found that most dogs will work better using lower stim with the continuous button verses the nick button.

Which ever button you choose to use, remember to increase the stim level one click at a time.

Remember that as the dog becomes more focused on you and the commands the stimulation level WILL come down. If the dog is overreactive the stim is too high, turn it down. Also remember to turn the dial back down at the end of your training session if you have not already done so. I got in the habit of turning the dial to Zero when I remove the collars from my dogs. I would rather start my training sessions too low than too high


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 When you talk about turning up the stim level, I'm curious how much you're thinking. I've got the Dogtra1700 NCP. I had a tough time finding his working level, as he is easily distracted and just seemed difficult with this...very subtle.


You have to do one of two things. Either work in a distraction-free environment (as much as that's possible) or simply hang out for 10-20 minutes until he's explored every new thing in the environment and gets bored. THEN you try to find his working level. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 At one point, it seemed like I had found the level, but then I wasn't sure. It was almost as if it was an involuntary muscle response...with a neck muscle shifting just slightly and I could barely see the tip of his ear shift with it. (This was at about 21).


I think if you get muscle movement, he's feeling it. Have you ever had a muscle twitch near your eye or on a forearm or something like that? You notice it and you don't like it. I think it's the same with the dog. 

The real test to see if he feels it is to start the training. If you do 20 reps and his behavior isn't changing, if he's not moving towards you and staying there, he's not feeling it. The number on the dial or the LCD means nothing except that a 20 is lower than a 21 and higher than a 19. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 I tried it again and nothing. So I went up from there and nothing. I didn't get anything more until 36, but I did get a slight reaction there where I know he felt it. I'm not sure about the 21 part or what was going on there.


I'd try working him at the 21 level and see if he feels it. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 So....if his working level is 36, how much is in range to turn it up? Just wondering how high I should go if he doesn't respond at that.


Here's what I do. I slowly turn up the dial a little at a time while keeping the situation constant. In bitework when I'm teaching the out I'll have the decoy stand as still as he can. That keeps the distraction level constant while I turn up the stim. At some point you'll see a difference in the dog's body carriage, an ear flick. Some noise that he starts making or he may just drop off. SLOWLY is the operative word because a little movement of the dial makes a lot of difference at the other end. 



> Originally Posted By: mikaK9 I'm hoping he would respond if it were turned up very slightly, but I'm wondering what my end range should be just in case he doesn't and I need to contact you for that other method.


When do this for the release I have the handler do some OB near the decoys. As he turns near them I have him give a light leash correction with some sort of training collar on the dog, usually a pinch or a choke chain. I'll pair the Ecollar stim with the leash correction and soon the dog thinks that they're the same thing. That lets me find his working level (remember that it will change as the distraction level changes) for this situation, with the decoy present. I can tell when he feels the stim in this situation because he'll raise his head a bit and sort of "try to walk on air" for a few steps.


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Tracie When I am working a dog, I don’t even look at where the dial is. You need to pay attention to the dog and it's responses to the level of stim.


This is what most people do after some experience with the collar. But beginners like to look and make sure that they're not too high. At seminars I'm always asked "What level are you on?" I usually answer, "The level the dog needs." But that never satisfies people, they want THE NUMBER. 



> Originally Posted By: Tracie If you have a dog that almost always works at a low level and suddenly the dog does not pay any attention and you have turned the collar up and turned it up (will go into proper stim level adjustments next) the first step I would take would be to make sure the collar is turned on (put your hand over the box on the dogs neck and tap the page button, this vibrates the collar) If the collar is on, next make sure the collar is not too loose.


Sounds like you've discovered that one problem with Ecollars is that you need to remember to turn them on. Glad I'm not the only one to have forgotten. Lol. I do the same thing, test it with the vibration mode. 



> Originally Posted By: Tracie When finding the dogs working level, I tap the button as I give the dog the command, if the dog ignores the command I turn the dial up ONE click


Not sure what you mean by "one click." On the Dogtras that I use, there aren't any "clicks." The dial goes smoothly from the lowest to the highest setting without any "clicks." Do you mean "one level?" 

If so, that's what I used to do. But now, as you say it's more important to watch the dog than the numbers on the dial, and see how he's responding to the change in the stim. 

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on working the Ecollar.


----------



## mikaK9

Excellent advice....thank you so much! As you can tell, I'm very much easing my way into the ecollar. I've resisted it for so long, but after reading your articles I feel almost goofy now for it. I guess I just saw some real negative experiences and that's all I had to go off of. So I'm still kinda tip-toeing around some of the issues. But everything you have wrote makes perfect sense. 

I guess the number/range issue came into my mind from watching a dog introduced during OB to an ecollar. It kept getting turned up and up until they realized the dog just wasn't showing obvious signs of pain....but it was way beyond where it should have been. It was very much a mess and I didn't want the same. I think I should be good though with your directions and the fact that I will be handling the remote and I will be reading my dog (in the above case it was someone other than the handler working the remote). 



> Quote: You have to do one of two things. Either work in a distraction-free environment (as much as that's possible) or simply hang out for 10-20 minutes until he's explored every new thing in the environment and gets bored. THEN you try to find his working level.


I actually tried to go for both....low distractions and waiting a while. In fact he was just laying down not doing anything and with nothing going on around us. I was able to tell any movement he made, which is probably why I saw the one at 21, even though it was quite subtle. It just threw me off that I couldn't see it when I tried to re-check it. I think my dog is still fairly immature though and the air can distract him quite easily. He can just be laying there not doing anything and still be distracted til he falls asleep







The 36 was where I got the attempt by my dog to flick the bug off his neck. I'll go with the plan of trying the 21 for training. Thanks again.


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> This is what most people do after some experience with the collar. But beginners like to look and make sure that they're not too high. At seminars I'm always asked "What level are you on?" I usually answer, "The level the dog needs." But that never satisfies people, they want THE NUMBER.


Yes, our clients are never satisfied with that answer either. I attened a remote collar seminar once in which the instructor stated that she wished the dial had photos of flowers instead of numbers. She said she thought it woudl be funny to hear people screech OH MY GOD MY DOG IS WORKING ON A DAISY! LOL


----------



## Dohhhhh

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "one click." On the Dogtras that I use, there aren't any "clicks." The dial goes smoothly from the lowest to the highest setting without any "clicks." Do you mean "one level?"
> 
> If so, that's what I used to do. But now, as you say it's more important to watch the dog than the numbers on the dial, and see how he's responding to the change in the stim.


Yes, I mean one level. I have a Dogtra 1804 that I use when taking my dogs out. 4 dogs/4 collars/1 remote The 1804 does kinda "click" as the stim level is increased or decreased. I believe this one many be the only one that does sort of click. My Dogtra 200's and 1500's do not as. As you said, the dial moves smoothly.


----------



## mikaK9

> Quote:The real test to see if he feels it is to start the training. If you do 20 reps and his behavior isn't changing, if he's not moving towards you and staying there, he's not feeling it. The number on the dial or the LCD means nothing except that a 20 is lower than a 21 and higher than a 19.


Thanks again for the input. I'm glad I started with the 21 (even though I know it's just a number), as he responded well to it under minimal distraction. Under high distraction I had to go up to 33, which got me the "trying to flick the bug off his neck" response, but then compliance with the command. 

So I'm not sure what was up with him the day I tested for his working level. He can be quite a goofy boy. Sometimes it's as if he shuts down because he doesn't have anything to distract him and he's not sure what's expected of him. He can just be sitting there doing absolutely nothing, barely moving, but it's like he's shut down in a way. I'm sure it has a lot to do with stuff before I ever saw him....who knows where he was bounced around from exactly or what he saw/did at those places. He still has quite a ways to go in the social area, and we're making strides every day. But the e-collar is working great and I'm extremely happy I opened my mind up to it. It will make training life a lot better for both of us as we go forward.


----------

