# Help me decide between these two!



## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

hi! I am using a reputable breeder who has informed me these two males are the calmest thus far and are showing lowest drive, which is important since I have a ranch. That being said, which do you think will turn out darker and have the best look? I have only ever owned black and bicolored shepherds. 

Thank You! We are excited either way.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I like the face of orange better, but not sure of that tail, prefer the non hooked position of red's tail. 

Hopefully lowest drive is relative to the rest of the litter. A low drive GSD is harder to train than a medium drive GSD.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

Are you getting to meet them in person before choosing? You might just like one over the other better when you meet - ie one might be more outgoing and friendly etc. Personally just from the photos I would choose red male because I am a sucker for a sable. Do you have photos of the parents?


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

View attachment 583150

View attachment 583149
Here is dad and mom! I won’t be able to meet them but am having more photos/videos sent to help decide. I’m a sucker for sables also! The darker the better since we run black dog ranch.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Who is the breeder?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

both puppies look sable to me…. the orange one being patterned.


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

Fodder said:


> both puppies look sable to me…. the orange one being patterned.


Thank you. What is the alternate to a patterned sable? Do their colors progress differently?


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Who is the breeder?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sire is DM A//A and dame is clear which will produce all carriers. Not sure if you knew that. Also the dam is said to be shy.


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Sire is DM A//A and dame is clear which will produce all carriers. Not sure if you knew that. Also the dam is said to be shy.


thank you for the info. I am aware of the gene. Where did you find this info on the Dam?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

ErinMiller said:


> thank you for the info. I am aware of the gene. Where did you find this info on the Dam?


Under the dams bio on the webpage.


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Under the dams bio on the webpage.


Thank you!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Edited.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

Fodder said:


> both puppies look sable to me…. the orange one being patterned.


Oh yes on closer inspection I think you are right. Looked black/tan at first glance.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

By the time they are 7 - 8 weeks old, you may see an entire different picture. Puppies change a lot in these last weeks in the litter. How come you have not met the dogs?


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Sire is DM A//A and dame is clear which will produce all carriers. Not sure if you knew that. Also the dam is said to be shy.


Trying to educate myself, so, what you said means that all the pups will carry the DM gene? Making it quite possible they could come down with DM?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Honey Maid said:


> Trying to educate myself, so, what you said means that all the pups will carry the DM gene? Making it quite possible they could come down with DM?


The site has two copies, putting him in the high risk for DM category. One copy or clear are in the same low risk catagory.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

This might help.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

oh, you don't want DM. It is heartbreaking to watch your best friend struggle with a back end that just won't work. They don't understand what's happening and keep trying and trying until it gives out completely. BTDT, would not want to do it again. Even if your dog never develops the disease, just carries it, you spend a lot of time worrying if that little slip is the beginning of it. I never cared about Elke's DNA until a few months ago when she had a wobbly day. I ordered her health provide because - as painful as it may be - I did not want to put another dog through that. Thankfully she was just having a bad day (not a young girl anymore) and she does NOT have that genetic predisposition to DM. It is definitely something to avoid.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ErinMiller said:


> Thank you. What is the alternate to a patterned sable? Do their colors progress differently?


i don’t quite understand what you’re asking or what you mean by _alternate. _all sables progress the same as far as going thru dark light dark phases. patterned sables just have stronger tan points (as seen already on the orange pups legs, chest) and a pattern more similar to the dad with sable replacing the black saddle/markings. it’s not always exact tho… being patterned has no effect on how light or dark a dog is, aside from your overall impression of that look. Valor is a well known dog on this board, you should be able to easily find his photos for a comparison. (carmspak puppy inbound)


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

Fodder said:


> i don’t quite understand what you’re asking or what you mean by _alternate. _all sables progress the same as far as going thru dark light dark phases. patterned sables just have stronger tan points (as seen already on the orange pups legs, chest) and a pattern more similar to the dad with sable replacing the black saddle/markings. it’s not always exact tho… being patterned has no effect on how light or dark a dog is, aside from your overall impression of that look. Valor is a well known dog on this board, you should be able to easily find his photos for a comparison. (carmspak puppy inbound)


Thank you. That answered my question!


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> By the time they are 7 - 8 weeks old, you may see an entire different picture. Puppies change a lot in these last weeks in the litter. How come you have not met the dogs?


I live in rural Idaho and there are no breeders close.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

edited


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

Buckelke said:


> oh, you don't want DM. It is heartbreaking to watch your best friend struggle with a back end that just won't work. They don't understand what's happening and keep trying and trying until it gives out completely. BTDT, would not want to do it again. Even if your dog never develops the disease, just carries it, you spend a lot of time worrying if that little slip is the beginning of it. I never cared about Elke's DNA until a few months ago when she had a wobbly day. I ordered her health provide because - as painful as it may be - I did not want to put another dog through that. Thankfully she was just having a bad day (not a young girl anymore) and she does NOT have that genetic predisposition to DM. It is definitely something to avoid.


The puppy is not DM positive. Just a carrier for the gene. Two copies are required for the gene to affect the dog is what I have been told by my vet.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ok, whatever.


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> People purchase from everywhere, including internationally, to get a sound, healthy, good German Shepherd. This is at least a 10 year commitment, you don’t want to compromise and just get whatever you have available locally.


I have three shepherds and I live on a ranch. I’ve chosen the breeder based on dispositions bred. I’m not new to this. But thank you for your concern. Im not getting this dog from nearby or limiting options based on my location. Just answered why i haven’t traveled there. I’ve built a relationship with the breeder and am happy with my choice. Just wanted help picking from these two. Most breeders do not breed for ranch work. So if you have suggestions I would be open.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No more suggestions, just you do you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Get the one you like best


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

drparker151 said:


> I like the face of orange better, but not sure of that tail, prefer the non hooked position of red's tail.
> 
> Hopefully lowest drive is relative to the rest of the litter. A low drive GSD is harder to train than a medium drive GSD.


Good point!! Thank you for your reply. Yes, we use ours for ranch work so the low drive is important with baby goats etc. have dealt with some higher prey drive dogs so we are working with the breeder to choose the more mellow less reactive of the litter.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Honey Maid said:


> Trying to educate myself, so, what you said means that all the pups will carry the DM gene? Making it quite possible they could come down with DM?


They will be carriers of the DM gene but not be at high risk for developing DM. 
Dogs who are at risk for DM does not mean they will develop it just a risk of developing it.


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> They will be carriers of the DM gene but not be at high risk for developing DM.
> Dogs who are at risk for DM does not mean they will develop it just a risk of developing it.


 The Sire shows he is the one more “at risk” correct? I’ve only seen it ever labeled as n/n , etc. never the letter A. Thank you for responding!


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Correct. A/A is at risk N/N clear


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Personally, I would pass. I don't like the looks (structure and balance) of the puppies, which are both Sable's. I'd also pass with the father being A/A. The puppes should be N/A (carriers), but they still could possibly end up with DM. The test is not 100% accurate, but a tool that we use for breeding.


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## newdok (Aug 3, 2021)

I really feel like you should meet a puppy before taking it home . I understand you live rurally but if the puppy can travel to you , you can travel and inspect puppies yourself .


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## Zenapupper (Apr 1, 2021)

I think Orange but I went to the breeder and picked mine really!! Coz when I saw the pictures I liked another female for the coloration but when I got there…I picked Zena coz of her temperament and how much she warmed up to us! And she is beautiful and has a great disposition overall.


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## ErinMiller (Oct 28, 2011)

newdok said:


> I really feel like you should meet a puppy before taking it home . I understand you live rurally but if the puppy can travel to you , you can travel and inspect puppies yourself .


You’re right! I’m going to choose in person. Thank you


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I trust my breeder, I tell her my life style, what I plan to do with the dog and temperment traits I want. She picks the pup, after all she has 8 weeks of observation to base the choice on vs my 30 minutes. With the understanding that if a specific litter doesn't produce the right pup, I'll wait for the right pup.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I pick "my pick puppy" for myself, and I choose the appropriate puppy for the puppy buyer. I've been with them for 8 weeks, and as long as the buyer has been completely honest with me as to what they want, their experience, and what they plan to do with the puppy, I can place the correct puppy with them, so everyone succeeds. Only time they to choose, is if there are two that are extremely close in everything, and then they get more input.


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## Arielphf (Nov 26, 2006)

I'm a sucker for a red sable, but it will honestly come down to which one calls to you. I'd never want to pick a puppy on a picture alone.


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