# Oh no. Otto seems aggressive.



## AndreaLS687 (Feb 22, 2014)

Otto is about 6 months old now and he still has yet to get his rabies shot she we havent taken him out for socializing yet. When some comes around who isn't part of our household he barks (sometimes growls) and the hair on his back stands straight up. He even aggressively snapped at a cop that randomly came over to pet him. How can I nick this behavior in the bud before something aweful happens? Also, I should add that when someone he doesnt know comes into our house he does all these things (minus the snapping) and we keep him on a leash by our side and ignore his behavior until he calms down and is willing to be friendly. It takes all of 10 minutes for him to realize those people are okay.

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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

He needs to be socialized. Work under his threshold and do not flood him. 6 months is a long time without socialization it will be hard you will have to work at it but not impossible. good luck.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

He doesn't need a rabies shot to be out socializing. Start taking him places, work from a distance at first, take lots of treats and praise when he watches people and dogs and other new things. Gradually work closer to things. He needs to see all kinds of different people (different colors and genders, old and young, handicapped, tall and short, etc) dogs, other animals, and other sorts of things (loud trucks, balloons, sewage grates, etc)..


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> He doesn't need a rabies shot to be out socializing. Start taking him places, work from a distance at first, take lots of treats and praise when he watches people and dogs and other new things. Gradually work closer to things. He needs to see all kinds of different people (different colors and genders, old and young, handicapped, tall and short, etc) dogs, other animals, and other sorts of things (loud trucks, balloons, sewage grates, etc)..


If this dog has any chance of biting or nipping anyone then yes the rabies shot is needed, for his own protection.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

llombardo said:


> If this dog has any chance of biting or nipping anyone then yes the rabies shot is needed, for his own protection.


 My point was that the OP made it sound like they have not done any socializing because the dog doesn't have a rabies shot-and that is not something you need to wait on before socializing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I would start here:
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

And more can be found in post 8:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

I did this after my first GSD greeted company with a low growl!! In 12 years of dogiehood I had never had that "issue" before (Bully breeds) so it was a surprise to me! In GSD world not uncommon. They are not particularly found of "strangers" on their turf!


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## AndreaLS687 (Feb 22, 2014)

We do take him for walks. He is very good during that time. He can see people out and about walking and he is fine. He ignores them. I guess it seems the problem is mainly at home. when I said socializing I meant that we aren't interactive with other people outside of our property with him woth us.I dont know how he would actually deal with people if i were to walk up and actually talk to someone. Im awful at explaining myself and giving the right details. Im sorry folks

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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Why has he not had a rabies yet? Get him his rabies shot, and get him out! Take lots of really amazing treats and every time you pass a new person give him a treat. Don't ask that he interact with anyone yet, just get to see people and a source if good things. 


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## AndreaLS687 (Feb 22, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Why has he not had a rabies yet? Get him his rabies shot, and get him out! Take lots of really amazing treats and every time you pass a new person give him a treat. Don't ask that he interact with anyone yet, just get to see people and a source if good things.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We do talk him for walks. When I said socializing I meant he doesnt interact with other people. If you read my last comment it explains more.

We are making a vet appointment for next week. Our vet was out of town for 2 weeks.

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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

AndreaLS687 said:


> We do take him for walks. He is very good during that time. He can see people out and about walking and he is fine. He ignores them. I guess it seems the problem is mainly at home. when I said socializing I meant that we aren't interactive with other people outside of our property with him woth us.I dont know how he would actually deal with people if i were to walk up and actually talk to someone. Im awful at explaining myself and giving the right details. Im sorry folks
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You explained it well. He's fine in public and an PSEUDO SWEARING at home with company.

Approach recommended is global it teaches a dog how you "expect" him to behave, it gives you control. Folks come over and tell the dog "go to bed"and "stay."

My guy is fine in public and not a fan of company but he is under my control and "knows" what I expect from him!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'd be the leader your dog is craving for.....


SuperG


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## AndreaLS687 (Feb 22, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I'd be the leader your dog is craving for.....
> 
> 
> SuperG


This is a learning process for me. Otto isn't my first dog but he is my first GSD. I came here for help. So instead of telling me you are a better leader how about you give me a few tips on how to be a better leader like you?

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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

AndreaLS687 said:


> This is a learning process for me. Otto isn't my first dog but he is my first GSD. I came here for help. So instead of telling me you are a better leader how about you give me a few tips on how to be a better leader like you?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I apologize if you misconstrued my comment as meaning I am a better leader....I fail to see that connection anyway....I simply stated you need to be the leader your dog craves for...end of story...

If your dog feels the need to be aggressive, snapping and barking at others...perhaps you might investigate the possible reasons he is doing this...

Question ; do you think Otto feels innately required to protect his space, owners and most importantly his status as he travels through life? Maybe once your dog is reassured and confident in a leader who guides wisely and with measured discipline...this problem will be dramatically reduced...as all the aforementioned insecurities will no longer be a concern.

Dogs NEED a leader....


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

This is really the kind of thing you need to go to a good sport trainer about. You won't find the answer on this forum. Even if you did your implementation of it probably wouldn't be what the writer had in mind.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

^^^ This! Search for a good trainer, preferably one with GSD experience. The forum is ok for some things, but best to have someone who can properly evaluate you/your dog and help guide you through the problem.


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## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

We are also having issues but they're the opposite of yours. Zoe seems fine with people coming over and was super friendly at the dog park when I visited her at puppy school....but if I walk her she acts like she wants to eat everyone we pass. 
I am meeting with a new trainer on Thursday. I hope you can find someone who can help you with Otto 

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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

... And Grim is working on reactivity to visitors and strangers on walks. I never go outside without my treat pouch lol.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

An R+ trainer with a reactive dog? But I thought treats fixed everything?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

He is getting better. I can now pull him out of a barking fit with a command. It is going to take time...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you're already to that point it can be fixed in less than 2-3 sessions with a little P+


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog wouldn't stop reactivity on a command for a treat if it was really fearful. It also wouldn't take food.

It continues to display the barking because it is a conditioned behavior that was never punished. It's like not liking me speaking English so you decide to teach me French and reward me for speaking French, but I still speak English because I've never been dis-incentivized for it but I do speak French sometimes too. You can't ever treat that behavior away. It needs to be punished.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

What would the P+ protocol for reactivity be? That is a relief to know it isn't fear.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Basically the same as for +R. You see the behavior you mark with a no instead of a yes or a click and you punish. A prong or e collar nick on a punishment level would work. Then you pause for a few seconds and if you don't see the behavior then you can praise and treat.

The timing needs to be there though. Just like you click treat for behaviors you like the instant you see them you need to no and punish for behaviors you don't want to see the instant you see them. If you are consistent, ie you punish every single time you see the behavior the behavior will fade very quickly and eventually disappear completely. It will happen at a quick rate. 

There are two dogs here for aggression issues one of them towards people that was so bad he wanted to kill staff members here. Think cujo level aggression. A +R only trainer ( a really good one) couldn't get him under control but she did do enough counter conditioning up front to where all I had to do was zap him about 7 times over the course of 3 weeks so far and he hasn't shown the behavior since. He even runs loose and unmuzzled at our cookouts now and gets fed burger by everybody, even strangers. The leash reactivity has been stopped dead too.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

My idea is to get him to the point where he sees something that causes him to react and automatically looks at me for a treat, through training him that when he sees strangers and then focuses on me without barking, he gets marked and rewarded.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I will take that into consideration. Sounds like you made lots of progress! Thanks for the advice.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I know what your goal is. The problem is there's no disincentive to him not doing what you want. If the behavior is self reinforcing and it probably is to a certain degree he's doing it now just because it's fun to him. People might get startled or jump or give him attention and he's like ooh look what I can do when I do this.

Same thing happens to people who have dogs that like to mouth or jump on them and then people say oh just ignore it it will go away. Yeah maybe but probably not. You'll just have a dog that starts scratching your turned back up or continues to chew on your unreactive hand.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You could do it force free but I wouldn't recommend it. It would require stronger negative punishment though. So let's say the only time you ever fed him was when he was successful for not being reactive to strangers on a walk but the second he got reactive you said no as he did the behavior instantly stopped the walk went home and didn't feed him or give him the opportunity to eat again till the next walk then eventually you could stop that behavior but it would take forever and IMO it's better to just positive punish the dog.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I've gotten as far as I have by basically feeding him dinner and high value treats for not reacting on walks. He only gets fed for listening during a reaction or for not barking at all. I have been working really strongly on "fuss" "watch" "touch" and recall. He also gets fed for going in his crate and offering these behaviors on walks and in the yard.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

..maybe I will try only feeding him when he doesn't react and saying no and taking him home when he does. Doesn't seem practical as I like being able to stop the reactions during longer walks so I can exercise the crazy nine month old pup..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I've gotten as far as I have by basically feeding him dinner and high value treats for not reacting on walks.


Unless you are feeding him "dinner" while on walks...immediately after not reacting during the walk...I would challenge the efficacy of feeding him dinner long after the desired result was displayed on your walk.

I tend to believe dogs live in the here and now, so any intended rewards or discipline need to be administered immediately for the dog to make the connection.

SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Sorry if that wasn't clear... Playing with dogs while typing... I bring his dinner on walks and mark and feed him for not reacting and stopping reactions to listen to me. Also for obeying watch, heel, and recall commands on walks. In the moment.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Be better to just end it in a day or three and go on about your business enjoying your pup and not working on that issue constantly.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> My idea is to get him to the point where he sees something that causes him to react and automatically looks at me for a treat, through training him that when he sees strangers and then focuses on me without barking, he gets marked and rewarded.


That is exactly what I did with my boy. Starting from a distance from people/other dogs and having him sit and look at me. I would click/treat a bunch of times. Slowly getting closer. It didn't take him long to figure out that if he focuses on me, he gets rewarded by going to say hi.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Very rarely completely gets rid of the reactive behavior. If that worked out for you completely great. If you went into denial or said oh well that's good enough then that's great too.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Very rarely completely gets rid of the reactive behavior. If that worked out for you completely great. If you went into denial or said oh well that's good enough then that's great too.


Sorry that I would rather teach my dog to act appropriately than to just suppress behaviors. Oh wait, no I'm not...

I don't understand why you think positive methods can't work. Or that if you use positive methods, you just got lucky or settled for bad behavior.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Can't help myself.....positive methods can and certainly do work....just as discipline does.....

I sense there is an air this day and age that dog training is strictly all positive reinforcement and the worst it gets is a "time out" or a "talkin' to"....

There are a multitude of dog "personalities" out there...if nothing but positive reinforcement training cured all the "nature" out of a dog to our satisfaction than more power to it....unfortunately I don't see it that way....there are times when the dog's "nature" needs to be tamed and perhaps dominated through discipline more significant than a talkin' to or a time out.

My opinion would be a combination of both is the most fruitful....as required.


SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I guess what I am struggling with right now is figuring Grim's thresholds out so he doesn't practice the behavior. That is the hard part. Walks have sudden proximity of strangers and other dogs to contend with. Thank you, Sabledog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

sabledog3 said:


> Sorry that I would rather teach my dog to act appropriately than to just suppress behaviors. Oh wait, no I'm not...
> 
> I don't understand why you think positive methods can't work. Or that if you use positive methods, you just got lucky or settled for bad behavior.


You're completely ignorant on the topic of positive punishment. The science out there says fixed rate punishment eliminates behaviors it does not suppress them. The practice among trainers that actually know what they are doing has results that speak for themselves. 

You can continue to read the ignorance proponents of positive only training continue to vomit at every turn or you can go out do your own search amongst peer reviewed research that has been out for several decades or get some real life training experience, maybe both. Maybe if you ask nice I'll even point you in the right direction and you can start educating yourself.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I guess what I am struggling with right now is figuring Grim's thresholds out so he doesn't practice the behavior. That is the hard part. Walks have sudden proximity of strangers and other dogs to contend with. Thank you, Sabledog.


Do you ever go hiking? We go hiking a few times a week at a not very busy place. We spend about 30 minutes on the long line and completely avoid other people/dogs there. Even if we have to turn around and go back the way we came. For the next half of the walk, we work on a 6ft leash and actively try to run into people and lurk in busier areas, like the parking area. 

I have him stop, sit, and look at me when we see people. If he's too excited, we just walk the other way a minute and do focusing commands like look and finish. When he's focused, we move back towards the people. 

My boy isn't aggressive, but he gets so excited to see people and dogs.

Training can be much easier if you take the edge off first


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

sabledog3 said:


> Do you ever go hiking? We go hiking a few times a week at a not very busy place. We spend about 30 minutes on the long line and completely avoid other people/dogs there. Even if we have to turn around and go back the way we came. For the next half of the walk, we work on a 6ft leash and actively try to run into people and lurk in busier areas, like the parking area.
> 
> I have him stop, sit, and look at me when we see people. If he's too excited, we just walk the other way a minute and do focusing commands like look and finish. When he's focused, we move back towards the people.
> 
> ...


Just sounds like you haven't fixed your own issues and insist on helping others with theirs


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Baillif said:


> You're completely ignorant on the topic of positive punishment. The science out there says fixed rate punishment eliminates behaviors it does not suppress them. The practice among trainers that actually know what they are doing has results that speak for themselves.
> 
> You can continue to read the ignorance proponents of positive only training continue to vomit at every turn or you can go out do your own search amongst peer reviewed research that has been out for several decades or get some real life training experience, maybe both. Maybe if you ask nice I'll even point you in the right direction and you can start educating yourself.


Do you ever reply with anything to do with what I have said? You simply insult and don't back up your claims.

Why do you want to punish your dog all the time anyways? My experience shows me that positive training methods work very well with dogs. And there is a lot of science behind positive training methods, and a lot of science against adversive and dominance based training.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Just sounds like you haven't fixed your own issues and insist on helping others with theirs


A few months ago I got an adult, intact male, gsd mix with zero training or social skills with people or dogs. He was set to be euthanized and had been caught as an emaciated stray. I've put mute than 20 lbs on him. No he's not perfect, but he has made such huge strides. We now can walk by people on the trail with out him pulling towards them. Or sit and stay at the side of t the trail as they walk past.

You can think what ever you want about me, but if someone asks for help I will share my experience with them and try to help.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We went hiking in the woods near our home every day. Grim's reactivity became such that I have been working him in front of our house so I can take him inside for a break if he goes over threshold. I have been teaching him fetch for exercise. We went to the bench by the open pantry near our house and I worked on focus as people went by and he did well. Unfortunately, at his previous home he was unsocialized so he sometimes barks, lunges, and growls at strangers. He definitely does not want to say hi. I'm OK with him not wanting to say hi, he is a German shepherd and I don't expect a social butterfly, but focus on me would be good. We take him to schutzhund training and the helper has developed a good relationship with him and can even walk him away from me. Basically all he does there is get socialized and play with the flirt pole. Today we took him out for a hike in the woods with my parents dog. My parents had to stay far away in the forest to not provoke a reaction. I tried to work him on focus and heeling and loose leash walking. It went OK, but he did occasionally react. He growled at an old man on a cell phone wearing a hat. I kept his nose on some freeze dried beef as we went by. I think Baillif understands positive training, he just sees positive punishment as more effective. Opinions and advice are always OK on the open forum... I should add that we are waiting to neuter him until he is a year so his hormones are in high drive right now, and our fence is open right now so we work on his reactivity in the yard. I have it so that he will turn on a dime and come to me even if he is barking and lunging at the fence at some poor tiny fluffy dog and old lady. Soon we are getting a six foot privacy fence. That will be nice.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> We went hiking in the woods near our home every day. Grim's reactivity became such that I have been working him in front of our house so I can take him inside for a break if he goes over threshold. I have been teaching him fetch for exercise. We went to the bench by the open pantry near our house and I worked on focus as people went by and he did well. Unfortunately, at his previous home he was unsocialized so he sometimes barks, lunges, and growls at strangers. He definitely does not want to say hi. We take him to schutzhund training and the helper has developed a good relationship with him and can even walk him away from me. Basically all he does there is get socialized and play with the flirt pole. Today we took him out for a hike in the woods with my parents dog. My parents had to stay far away in the forest to not provoke a reaction. I tried to work him on focus and heeling and loose leash walking. It went OK, but he did occasionally react. He growled at an old man on a cell phone wearing a hat. I kept his nose on some freeze dried beef as we went by. I think Baillif understands positive training, he just sees positive punishment as more effective.


Have you ever had people just walk by and throw treats? No looking or talking to the dog, just throw treats and keep walking.

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction even though it will take some work


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I am a professional trainer. Videos of my dog are available on this forum. I train dogs all day. When i go on vacation it is to go on trips to train dogs for sport. When i am messing around on the internet when i have free time it is on a forum about dogs. You rescued a dog. Great. I have three here from rescues for behaviors that gone unchecked would leave them unadoptable and lead them to possibly be put down. Two of them for agression. They are done. It is fixed and for kicks we put high reliablity obedience on them too. On average i train 20-30 dogs a month. So maybe just maybe I know what i am talking about.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

sabledog3 said:


> Do you ever reply with anything to do with what I have said? You simply insult and don't back up your claims.
> 
> Why do you want to punish your dog all the time anyways? My experience shows me that positive training methods work very well with dogs. And there is a lot of science behind positive training methods, and a lot of science against adversive and dominance based training.


I dont do dominance based anything. I train utilizing all four quadrants of operant conditioning. There are four you know. I do r+ a bunch. And as for that science youre talking about. Its crap.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I haven't tried that, mostly because it would be impossible because we have shored up the picket fence with deer fencing and boards because he is an escape artist as well. Luckily the few times he escaped before we did that, despite all his bluster he just galumphed around on the sidewalk and didn't rush anyone and bite them. Gave me a heart attack. I would also be hesitant to try that technique because I worry that it would reinforce his reaction unwittingly. Luckily for me in all this, he is so food motivated that training him is very easy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Do you know why they are called reinforcement? Because they make behaviors stronger. They do not eliminate them. They are great for teaching incompatible behaviors or alternative behaviors but they do not eliminate or weaken existing behaviors.

Positive punishment and negative punishment weaken behaviors. If you want to eliminate behaviors they are your go to quadrants.

Certain behaviors may cease in the complete absence of reinforcement over time but the ones you are talking about are self reinforcing. Guess what that means?

So you can teach an incompatible and for some dogs and some behaviors that's enough, but not for leash reactivity. Leash reactivity or reactivity in general is addictive like crack to a dog.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

... Yep. Got it. Training in front of the house for all his meals and go inside with a firm no every time he reacts. Or try P+. I think I will give the first option a good try for awhile and see how he does. Luckily he is too skinny and is a very gangly teen, and needs to put on weight so all the treats will do him good. I have also been rewarding him for looking at his triggers without barking by saying a marker word\feeding him each time he exhibits that behavior. Why do you feel the science behind positive only is junk, Baillif?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Because it only tells you half the story. The other half is there if you go to do the research. Most of it was politically motivated focus on R+ Because that animal research was being attributed to human psychology and American society has a political correctness issue with punishment in general.

Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training | Adherence to a flawed ideology resembles nothing so much as abject stupidity…GW

Have a look there. It's the blog of Gary Wilkes. He was married to Karen Pryor and most of the development that went into clicker training for dogs is actually his stuff. 

I'm not going to do the searching for you. But the stuff is there the names of the researchers are there. If you want to learn the truth it's there.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Can you go more into negative punishment? That is the absence of reinforcement, right? Our other dog used to bark for similar reasons to Sabledog's pup- she just wanted to say hi and was frustrated by the leash, and with time and training ( we did positive training as much as possible with her) she has outgrown the behavior and is becoming a model citizen on leash. Her mouthing has almost been extinguished on walks but in the house she will occasionally still do it, nothing like before she turned 2.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Thanks, I will look into that information.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I am a professional trainer. Videos of my dog are available on this forum. I train dogs all day. When i go on vacation it is to go on trips to train dogs for sport. When i am messing around on the internet when i have free time it is on a forum about dogs. You rescued a dog. Great. I have three here from rescues for behaviors that gone unchecked would leave them unadoptable and lead them to possibly be put down. Two of them for agression. They are done. It is fixed and for kicks we put high reliablity obedience on them too. On average i train 20-30 dogs a month. So maybe just maybe I know what i am talking about.


Could you please embed links to your training videos? Or point me in the right direction? We have a rescue with some reactivity issues and I am working hard on wiping those issues out, with a combination of +P and positive. He is immensely better, but he needs to be damned near perfect, because he's a huge guy and I'm not.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I am enjoying Gary Wilkes' blog. Definitely different from my usual Nicole Wilde and Patricia McConnell, but it is good to know how to do it right if I ever decide to use P+, and to understand more about the balanced training I have heard so much about on the forums. My greatest worry is that if my timing is off with a mark and reward, the dog gets an ill-timed treat. If my timing is off with a correction, my dog may associate corrections with strangers and other dogs, and become more aggressive. At least right now he is learning to associate treats with strangers and strange dogs. Although I am aware that it doesn't need to be compulsion only and R+ is an intrinsic part of the training being discussed. Baillif has a few training video threads but I haven't seen one on reactivity. Maybe we have to pay to see that?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The videos I showed were more or less me screwing around. The reactivity stuff is something I never recorded in the process of doing it. I will have before and after video available soon of an crazy aggression/reactivity case that was completely fixed in less than 2 weeks.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Can you go more into negative punishment? That is the absence of reinforcement, right? Our other dog used to bark for similar reasons to Sabledog's pup- she just wanted to say hi and was frustrated by the leash, and with time and training ( we did positive training as much as possible with her) she has outgrown the behavior and is becoming a model citizen on leash. Her mouthing has almost been extinguished on walks but in the house she will occasionally still do it, nothing like before she turned 2.


It isn't just that. It's the removal of anything a dog wants or likes to punish a behavior. Could be a denial of food reward it could be the stoppage of play or removal of attention or that kind of thing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm well as a general rule I try "not" to chose to engage in battle with people who have "been there done that!"

I'm just a "pet person" apparently an "Extreme Pet Person" because I tolerate "ZERO" crap from my dogs, but a "Pet Person" nonetheless.

But I had Pro level problems with my guy! I did "Who Pets My Puppy or Dog" long before I found this board. My guy had serious "people issues" which I discovered when we had company for the first time,he greeted company with a low growl and he gave me the impression he ment business.

He has "Wobblers" so hard corrections with a 'Prong or Flat collar" were out! I did the "Who Pets..." thing and simply moved on and ignored. People or Dogs same deal, Don't care not your concern dog, we're moving!

He has "never" been allowed to "play" with other dogs in his life. Nonetheless he "knows' what I expect! Dogs can bark bark ,bark,bark in his face and they get "Zero" reaction from him! I stop and speak to folks, there dog can bark at him till they turn blue in the face and they won't get a response from him!

I did no "specific" reactive dog training with him! If loose dog comes after us I tell him "Stay" and I deal with the "problem"..."been there done that!"

People can pet him and he could care less, company can come over and he goes to bed and stays there!

Kinda like "Nice to see you when are you leaving?? Not particularly welcoming but good enough for me!

Guess the whole concept is kinda simple "Who Pets..." but sometimes simplicity works!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It can work sometimes because if you sit and watch people walk their dogs while you have a dog you can actually see the behavior that causes a dog to get "loaded up." What I mean by that is they'll be walking comfortably and calmly and when they get closer to me and my dog they stiffen and get tighter on the leash to prepare for either my dog or their dog to do something, and their dog picks up on that tension and it helps create the exact problem they were trying to avoid. People don't realize they are doing it but next time you guys are out with your dog watch for it in yourself or others.

The reactive problem gets operantly conditioned in that manner for many dogs. How you react when your dog begins to bark or growl can also make a world of difference. If you instantly add distance once your dog begins to bark or growl they were positively reinforced for the action of showing aggression if that was what it was for. If your dog begins to react and you pull hard against your dog tugging on the leash and pulling them away as they bark and lunge you are more or less doing an agitation bite work session with your dog.

The no pet thing isn't a bad idea especially with puppies. Anyone I allow a puppy to directly interact with already knows ahead of time how to interact with the puppy, ie how to approach without startling, food is ready to make the experience positive for the puppy, and they know to pet in a calming manner and not freak the puppy out, not to positively reinforce the puppy for the behavior of jumping on people. Any dog interactions would have been set up by me either with dogs I know are completely stable or puppies around the same age where the experience is refereed and I know it will be a positive one. I don't allow any random dog interactions when out and about with dogs. It heads off so much of that stuff to where it never becomes an issue you ever have to deal with.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

sabledog3 said:


> Do you ever reply with anything to do with what I have said? You simply insult and don't back up your claims.
> 
> Why do you want to punish your dog all the time anyways? My experience shows me that positive training methods work very well with dogs. And there is a lot of science behind positive training methods, and a lot of science against adversive and dominance based training.


You are under the impression I punish all the time because you don't understand how punishment works. Once you punish something and you punish it consistently and clearly it occurs less and less until it stops occurring at all. Guess what that means? It means you aren't punishing anymore because it is done. Punishment done right happens infrequently. By the very definition of punishment if you are punishing and the behavior isn't happening less and less till it's occurrence approaches zero then you aren't really punishing.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I' m going to make sure that I' m not making Grim's reactions worse by choking up on the leash in preparation for a reaction too...


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

"Purely Positive?" "Balanced?" Another Perspective | Dog Star Daily
Here is a good article on respecting different viewpoints regarding training methods....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Least invasive minimally invasive is meh. If you had cancer and it could metastasize at any time do you want a doctor who's ready to get in there and cut the cancer out and hit it with chemo to try to get it gone and over with or the one who wants to wait around and see what might happen while maybe giving some chemo here or there and maybe surgery if that doesn't work and it continues to get worse and maybe spread? Go for the cure or treat treat treat treat?

As a professional trainer what is more ethical then? That I fix the behavior and send the client and dog happily on their way or pick a method that takes forever to maybe see results and if it doesn't work then finally just go do what I should have done in the first place and make the client spend all that extra money a long the way?

People just end up teaching and teaching the same behavior, like the doctor that is just treating and treating, for the life of the dog. It's silly. 

For pet stuff obedience wise my dog Zebu is done. He's just barely a year old and he's done. That's it. It's finished. I don't work on it anymore because he knows it and performs near 100% even under intense distraction. If he doesn't he gets punished. I don't train away reactivity or any obedience he already knows it, or in the case of barking at strange people or strange dogs knows not to do it. I could walk him through a crowd with leashed dogs around while he's off leash with no issues and he was nervy as a puppy. His genetics are not great he didn't have a naturally good temperament. 

I don't go back and reteach stuff motivationally. What would be the point? He knows it. He either chooses to do it or he chooses not to but he always has a choice. If he chooses poorly I am there to remind him of why it is a poor choice, but he almost never does because the result it yields is always undesirable to him. And you know what? We have a great relationship. He is a happy dog. He doesn't avoid me, he doesn't fear me. He rarely gets punished now, because my communication and expectation is very clear. He has more freedom than most dogs do. I can confidently let him loose in a park knowing I can recall him from anything even without prong collars or e collars or long lines. I'm not lording over him like a dictator, either, screaming or yelling or getting angry. The choice is made very clear. Be good and great things might happen and life is great and amazing or do the wrong thing and get a consequence.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Least invasive minimally invasive is meh. If you had cancer and it could metastasize at any time do you want a doctor who's ready to get in there and cut the cancer out and hit it with chemo to try to get it gone and over with or the one who wants to wait around and see what might happen while maybe giving some chemo here or there and maybe surgery if that doesn't work and it continues to get worse and maybe spread? Go for the cure or treat treat treat treat?
> 
> As a professional trainer what is more ethical then? That I fix the behavior and send the client and dog happily on their way or pick a method that takes forever to maybe see results and if it doesn't work then finally just go do what I should have done in the first place and make the client spend all that extra money a long the way?
> 
> ...


I love Zebu's videos, and respect your opinion, Baillif. I know that reactivity is a naturally occurring, and self reinforcing behavior for dogs, but unlike cancer, it is something the dog can learn to control. I don't think cancer is the right metaphor for this situation. I would say it is a problem like.. Oh, say... temper tantrums in a child. Those are self reinforcing and based in poor frustration tolerance. There are many different ways to parent, and many different ways to train a dog.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Bailiff you should just stay out and let these two give each advice. They clearly are never going to have well trained dogs. Why waste your time.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Thanks for the PM Baillif. I appreciate your advice. Simba, maybe you should read the article I posted.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I don't allow any random dog interactions when out and about with dogs. It heads off so much of that stuff to where it never becomes an issue you ever have to deal with.


Aww thanks for the insight! Two for one, the dog reactive thing never happened..I thought it was "magic!"


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Lol you're full of articles. Your real life experiences should trump articles you find on the Internet. Do you have a well behaved dog or not? If not then stop reading articles and ask yourself what's wrong? 

Bailiff doesn't cite a bunch of Internet articles. He's speaking from real life experiences. Why would you want to take two years to teach a dog not to be reactive and then another two to teach heeling without leash? Your dog will be old and close to death before it's considered well behaved . my dog is one and he is also done with obedience stuff. I honestly don't even know where his leash is because I never need to use it. Stop reading dumb articles and listen to people with actual experience.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

.. Back on topic please, no personal attacks on the forum.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm not above personal attacks.....my folks berated me constantly...well...so did all my relatives, school teachers, friend's parents etc...maybe it would be easier to say ...everyone personally attacked me throughout my entire life...and all with good reason I might add.

So, if you need a whipping post...I'm here for ya...

This is just another one of the many services I provide which nobody gives a crap about.

SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

simba405 said:


> Stop reading dumb articles and listen to people with actual experience.


And YOU stop with the snarky replies! If you can't participate in the conversation without insulting other members you can keep your thoughts to yourself. Consider this a friendly reminder, the next time it will be an official warning.

-Moderator


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I insulted someone cuz I said stop reading stupid useless articles and listen to those who are experienced? You call that snarky. I call it common sense.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know that you can cure a reactive dog without punishment. Been there, done that. It depends on the dog and on the consistency of the handler. You do not need to give a correction for the behavior, and if you dog get from point A to point B without corrections, then you can go home and hibernate all winter, and in the spring, your dog isn't going to start up the foolishness again, because it is indeed cured. 

I think that with some dogs, staying positive, increasing your confidence, building the dog's confidence by positive and engaged training, and staying below the dog's threshold while the dog matures, and you can completely eliminate dog reactivity. 

Or, you can tell a dog to cut out that nonsense, and give it a correction. I think that depending on whether the dog becomes actually more confident in you and more confident in himself, you might find that you may have to repeat that correction, or you may lose the early warning and have a dog snap at a dog that comes right up into your dog's face. 

I think consistent, fair discipline can actually increase a dog's confidence, so I think that it can actually work to correct a dog for reactivity. But again, it depends on the dog. Personally, I think a lot of reactivity is due to a problem in leadership, in that the dog does not trust the handler to protect him. As the dog matures and the bond improves, and dog and handler grow to trust each other, reactivity can diminish on its own, or become a bad habit. A bad habit can be corrected. 

And yes, if the dog will eat treats, and the dog will change its focus onto the handler, the dog's reaction is not seriously fearful. A seriously fearful dog will not take treats, and will not change their focus because their stress level is simply too high. Even so, I don't know if the reactive behavior remains even beyond the point where the fearfulness is not debilitating if it is time to correct with punishment, or not. 

In any case, the continual picking on people for using whatever training methods they are using gets real old, and while you make friends with those within your camp already, those outside of it, begin to lose respect. 

Oh, and I train outside so only during the fine weather, which in Ohio, is rather limited -- May through September, and with the number of dogs I have, that isn't a lot for any of them. For the last few years, there has been this nasty little lackland terrier attending. At least three years this dog is out there. The man has a prong collar, and an e-collar on the dog. At the start of every session, he asks me, "do you believe this is the same dog?" 

Actually, yes, I do believe it. And the dog is not cured at all from his reactivity. He has bitten one of my dogs, and he gets into it with several each season. All the corrective devices have not corrected the little scrapper. But the guy has the dog in training, and the dog needs to be there, so I am just glad that he continues on and on and on to work with the dog. 

I just got to say, if you are looking for a poster pup for corrections, don't use the Lackland Terrier.

Many of us however have brought a dog that has barked a few times for one or two sessions, and then have gotten over themselves. Whether they have grown to trust us, or whether they have matured, or whether they have just become more comfortable in a controlled environment with other dogs, not sure. 

I have to say, that in my experience, the dogs that get physically corrected, take a lot longer to make them safe in public. Though, the little guy with his remote and prong collar is totally oblivious. Bad training is bad training. Though, I have seen others in class, mostly with prongs. And it took those people every bit as long as the people dealing with it without the special collars. Not as long as the prong-e-collar combo dog though.

It comes down to good training = good training, and bad training = bad training, regardless of which camp you are in.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A prong and E collar WTH?? Gotta Goggle that dog! 

And a given tool is only as good as the end user! Only dog I had problems with "crappy" on leash was my BullMastiff/APBT/LAb mix only dog I ever used a prong collar on (incorrectly).

My other guys, flat collar and leash and minor corrections... if needed!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh looks like an Airedale Terrier?? Either way I'm out!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Again, I speak of punishment according to the definition set forth as per operant conditioning not some "correction." If the behavior isn't going away then whatever he was doing was not punishing to the dog or it wasn't clear as to what was being punished. In either case he was not punishing. Pure and simple it is handler error. You have perhaps never seen an aggression case punished away correctly. If you did you would understand.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Again, I speak of punishment according to the definition set forth as per operant conditioning not some "correction." If the behavior isn't going away then whatever he was doing was not punishing to the dog or it wasn't clear as to what was being punished. In either case he was not punishing. Pure and simple it is handler error. You have perhaps never seen an aggression case punished away correctly. If you did you would understand.


Doesn't matter. You can say, handler error, every time someone does not get the proper results with positive training methods, too. 

Oh, the dog will stop going for the other dog if he starts pushing the remote control button. But three years later, the dog is still on a prong collar and an e-collar and the guy still has his remote control. The dog is not trained. The dog is barely managed. 

There is poor handling going on with every type of training out there. It does not mean that type of training does not work, it means that some people do not do it well. It is possible that it will be less effective for some dogs and more effective for others.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It does matter. Aversive control done wrong is abusive plain and simple. He's likely negative reinforcing and guess why that doesn't work? Same reason the positive reinforcement wasn't working.

But on the flip side positive reinforcement by it's very definition cannot eliminate the appearance of such an antagonistic conditioned behavior such as aggressive reactivity. Maybe you get lucky with a misread case and it was really a frustration case or get decent results with 1 out of 10000 dogs that really really really want whatever the reward was but most times it simply doesn't work and the handlers change their behavior to accommodate the dog and not the other way around.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> It does matter. Aversive control done wrong is abusive plain and simple. He's likely negative reinforcing and guess why that doesn't work? Same reason the positive reinforcement wasn't working.
> 
> But on the flip side positive reinforcement by it's very definition cannot eliminate the appearance of such an antagonistic conditioned behavior such as aggressive reactivity. Maybe you get lucky with a misread case and it was really a frustration case or get decent results with 1 out of 10000 dogs that really really really want whatever the reward was but most times it simply doesn't work and the handlers change their behavior to accommodate the dog and not the other way around.


I have to disagree with you. If you have a young dog that is barking and lunging at others dogs. And you remove it from what it is reacting to. And stay below the dog's threshold, while you start training the dog, specifically to build the dog's confidence and to build the dog's confidence/trust in you the handler. And you build that relationship, while the dog does some maturing, and work on basic training. And then start pushing the dog's envelope, always telling the dog what to do, rather than waiting for the dog to react and reacting. You can definitely make a lot of progress, and get a very nicely trained dog in the bargain. 

We are not talking about a frustration case, we are talking about a fear-based reactivity. By dealing with the dog's lack of confidence both in himself and in the handler, and allowing some level of maturity without constantly bambarding the dog with what is making him fearful, you can reset, and begin again from a different point of reference.

Too many people take a puppy or new dog they do not know very well everywhere, including puppy free-for-alls, dog parks, and doggy daycare and either allow other dogs to bully or all out attack them, or they completely over-react at all the wrong times. A dog that lacks confidence and cannot feel any trust in the person on the other end of the lead, is likely to act out in ways we don't like because sometimes it works and drives people or dogs away, or gets the human to pull the dog out of the situation. If people reset their behavior with the dog, while they are giving their dog a break, and focus mainly on building trust between the dog and the handler, when they move again closer to those things, the dog, being older, being more confident, and having a relationship with the handler will most likely have a lot easier time managing what the world sends his way. 

But of course, that requires the humans to take responsibility for the dog's behavior, and it is so much easier for trainers to say, your dog is aggressive or dominant or fearful or whatever way they want to say the dog is flawed, and if we apply this tool or that tool, we can snap him out of this behavior pronto. 
And the thing is, it can work. A sharp correction properly timed, CAN eliminate the barking, growling, lunging, stupid behaviors. It does nothing to eliminate the fear behind it though. I think most of the time the dog does not want to fight, they want what they see as a threat to go away. And if pressed up close by a dog running right into it, some of these dogs will not attack. And some will. The snarling, lunging behavior limits the ability for people to completely socialize the dog. 

On the other hand, in the process of building a relationship, building trust, dog classes, where other people have their dogs under control are worked in the vacinity of your dog and you, the dog will become desensitized to dogs at a safe distance, and as we continue to manage the dog, train the dog, build the relationship, and manage the environment, the number of good experiences and increased confidence will bring that dog to a different place.

It is not 1 in 10,000. It is a lot of dogs. What it takes is people to accept that they are not perfect and be willing to change. And it takes some time. Again, though, I really do not think it takes that much more time than throwing a correction collar on the dog and applying a correction of whatever sort. Because I see the results of that thinking all the time.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I used to do things that way. I'm telling you it's way way slower and way way less effective than to go the other way with it. Stop the reactivity first then work on root cause and guess what. It doesn't matter what that root cause is. There are four options to a dog when confronting a person or animal. Fight flight freeze friends. When you shut the door on options you don't want to see guess what happens? They pick the option you do leave open. And that is when the magic happens.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Well, Grim is making progress with that way! He only showed one instance of dog reactivity on our socialization hike to a pet store on a crowded bike trail today. He seemed to show skepticism at first but soon he was just being an aloof gsd.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Well great. Let me know when it's fixed totally and I'll tell you the final count in how many dogs I've trained that had the same issue in that same interval.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't doubt it.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Well, Grim is making progress with that way! He only showed one instance of dog reactivity on our socialization hike to a pet store on a crowded bike trail today. He seemed to show skepticism at first but soon he was just being an aloof gsd.


So when can you trust him enough to walk him off leash through the same route? 10 years?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If she keeps allowing him to practice the behavior and get reinforced by it probably never. If you want to go that route you can't drop so far into threshold you see the reactivity or you're moving backward a step or three.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

The leash laws in our city would prohibit me from trying it.. We are working on off leash heeling and recall, but I really prefer to have him leashed on hikes as we live in a metropolis. I'm OK with never walking off leash except when we go to my husband's parents cabin up north. As far as that goes, our other dog rarely wears a leash when we go up there. She is 2.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I know that I shouldn't allow him to practice the behavior. He didn't bark at a poodle at close range inside the pet store, and accepted a treat from the owner and the proximity of other guests. I was shocked.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Well great. Let me know when it's fixed totally and I'll tell you the final count in how many dogs I've trained that had the same issue in that same interval.





simba405 said:


> So when can you trust him enough to walk him off leash through the same route? 10 years?


Why is it so darn important for people that train with methods that include aversives to eliminate unwanted behavior to belittle people who choose to go at it a different way? 

What is in it for you? Really?

If someone can make a dog that is being reactive, stable without your methods, then it must not be done efficiently or totally effective. 

This stuff is really getting old on here. I am sure some of you have trained plenty of dogs. In my life, there were trainers who trained lots of dogs with choke-chains. The dogs' behaviors improved. They did it for decades. They got results. Did it make them right? Are there no better ways? Is it impossible that because they got results, there are no other or better ways to get from point A to point B?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's annoying to see someone suggest a method of training when they themselves can't fix the very same issue in their own dogs. The pure positive scam spread on that very same crap.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Although I know that the reactivity is important to deal with, I am also trying to socialize him as it wasn't done as a puppy, so I decided to risk a long hike through crowded places. He did much better than I had anticipated. I was ready to take him home if he became uncontrollable. Baillif, I am not endorsing any method, or saying that aversives don't work, simply sharing my experience with my dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Emily, I would think about doing one thing at a time. Work on the problem first, the socializing will be whatever he is good with when he can behave.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

A good suggestion.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And Emily, be honest with yourself and whats really progress. Don't fall into something I see with different people where they start making excuses for why he did this or that, then they quit enjoying their dog and just give up. Be consistent and stick with what you're good at and always be safe.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Well, after his hike, he didn't bark at the neighbors on their roof or getting into their car as he usually does. I think the exercise and exposure helped.


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