# Professional Dog Training: Mis-Information Thread 2015 - 2020



## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

It occurred to me that there's so much misinformation being put out on proper dog training techniques, (Internet and otherwise) I decided I would ask the professional trainers, * not *specifically the breeder's who have had 200 - 300 litters under their belts who have claimed themselves to be professionals, "based on trial and error." * Post the most up to date wrong or improper training quotes or techniques * -- so the newer members are/were easily able to "sift through the pile of bad information." 

_ I am not a breeder nor a trainer/handler. I do what I can, with what I have. _

* Lucky for me I have someone I can trust 100% to tell me right from wrong. *

A professional with 25+ years in K-9 Police work "who is not a breeder and states facts, not necessarily opinions, based on proven methods of German Shepherd and Malinois Dogs." Professionally trained in various spectrum's such as; Search and Rescue, Police Work, Army, Navy, Marines and Air-Force as well as Special Forces.

If you name names and it's a negative comment, the mods. will delete your post. So, if you want it to remain in print, use an **asterisk** and give an explanation professionally...

SehrGutCsg


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What I personally like and dislike about a forum, is when someone like yourself SehrGut just posts what you've done with your dogs. What you like or dislike, what worked for you. I can appreciate everyone's experiences like that. I just enjoy the conversations about dogs.

It sound's like maybe you and I dislike the same thing, maybe in a slightly different way, but in general "pros" that feel the need to proclaim they're "pros" and can cite every study and scientific such and such, but will never show themselves doing something as simple as walking a dog. When it comes to that, I can't help but have that show me attitude.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> It occurred to me that there's so much misinformation being put out on proper dog training techniques, (Internet and otherwise) I decided I would ask the professional trainers, * not *specifically the breeder's who have had 200 - 300 litters under their belts who have claimed themselves to be professionals, "based on trial and error." * Post the most up to date wrong or improper training quotes or techniques * -- so the newer members are/were easily able to "sift through the pile of bad information."
> 
> _ I am not a breeder nor a trainer/handler. I do what I can, with what I have. _
> 
> ...


Firstly I am not a proffesional dog trainer.

Secondly this is an impossible answer.
Depending on what you want to achieve with your dog the answers will vary...
A police dog for example is NOT a pet dog...
A competition dog however may double as a pet dog...

Either way in every single aspect, and whatever purpose you train for.
Professionals do one thing consistently. They often disagree...
The philosophy on how to train for each aspect can VARY significantly.

Its like getting a professional ballet teacher to teach a Boxer... Sure she can work on flexibility, fitness, balance, co-ordination... The boxer will improve... However the ballet teacher will never be able to teach that person how to box.

This is why us as consumers of these 'services' we need to be very well read, and hypocritical before we comit to anything. And have good justification as to why we chose to follow that specific individual.
They need to be sensitive to us our dog and what we want to achieve.

I get what you are trying to achieve in this thread. Some form of standardisation.. Or protocol, as to agreement...

But that cant be done without being more specific as to what kind of training you are referring to.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If possible Lykoz, you should get out and see some Police dogs and competition dogs doing what they do. See some hands on training. It may give you a little different perspective, especially as far as temperaments, but also philosophies and theories.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> If possible Lykoz, you should get out and see some Police dogs and competition dogs doing what they do. See some hands on training. It may give you a little different perspective, especially as far as temperaments, but also philosophies and theories.


Seeing police dogs and working dogs more in action, is a very welcomed thing... I enjoy it every time..

A GSD for example lives for approximately 10 years. In those 10 years it may never bite... Or it may bite its handler just once, and cause Serious grievous damage. That is enough to even kill somebody. That one bite for a Pet owner is unacceptable....

I have owned 8 dogs in my life and none have ever turned to bite me or shown any aggression to me.

To watch a dog for an hour... or even a week or month consistently doesn't necessarily say much about its risk profile.

The dogs you are speaking about are highly trained and highly effective... They always look good when you see them doing their thing...

It does not change the fact that it would be negligence to let your kid play with a police dog the same way you might let them play with a pet dog.

Police dog have OFTEN bitten their handlers.
They are trained in highly stressful situations. They often bite the wrong targets. There are a lot of reports all over the internet on this. They have a much higher risk profile.

A lot of them have to leave the program, because they cant handle the work.. If they were forced to do the work, they could be neurologically damaged... Dogs not tailored to this type of training can literally have a breakdown if forced to do it. You need a very specific type of dog, to manage the program. It is not by chance that police dogs are HIGLY expensive to breed... Infact getting your hands on a specifically bred litter for the police is not easy... And if you do... You will pay a lot.

The trainers are more specific in training police dogs... If the dog cant cut it... The dog is out the program... A pet dog owner cant just abandon his dog because the training isnt going well... They deal with very specific and unique traits.

A police trained dog is not a suitable family pet.
It could be argued that a dog trainer with only experience in police work might not be a good trainer out of that scope. On the other hand with hours of working with dogs, and a receptive mind to better his trade...
He could become the BEST pet dog trainer EVER...

I am just saying there are different approaches for different reasons.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> The dogs you are speaking about are highly trained and highly effective...


Yeah, except for the ones that aren't. You'd see both, in person. All I'm saying is you'd have a different perspective, the more you see. And as far as temperament, my point is training doesnt change temperament. A good dog can be perfectly fine doing police work or sport and still living with a family just like any responsibly owned pet . I see both here and there.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

I was always under the impression that a police dog had 'work time' then 'home time', and while at home, it acted just like a pet. Has my thinking this been right or wrong?


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, except for the ones that aren't. You'd see both, in person. All I'm saying is you'd have a different perspective, the more you see. And as far as temperament, my point is training doesnt change temperament. A good dog can be perfectly fine doing police work or sport and still living with a family just like any responsibly owned pet . I see both here and there.


Temparment? I dont want to get into the psychology of words with you... Strictly speaking can it change based on environment... I don't know or care to find out.

Can a dogs behaviour and aggressiveness change due to training... Most definitely Yes.

We are shaped by inherent genetic characteristics and our environment. Both play Vital roles.

Police dogs are different to other dogs often both genetically and environmentally.

Their Temparment/behaviour/agressiveness is of a different profile to your average pet dog.

They need a different approach.

The best World Championship Sport dog will not necessarily be the best Police Dog... They are two very different things. Infact a World Champion Sport dog may actually show fear in a real fight. A police dog shouldn't... The officers life may depend on the dog not showing fear. A police dog however will not have the same Technical prowess and level of obedience like a sport dog...

Sport dogs deal with much different stressors to a police dog with a real fighting assailant...

To think they need to trained the same way is naive...

Similarly a police dog and a pet dog are even more different.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It just depends on the dog Debanneball, and maybe different Dept's rules about how they have to be treated separate of work, no matter their temperament. But that's all it is, temperament, just like your dogs.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Debanneball said:


> I was always under the impression that a police dog had 'work time' then 'home time', and while at home, it acted just like a pet. Has my thinking this been right or wrong?


Most responsible police departments keep their dogs kennelled. They don't take them home...

The dogs go home with the police officer when they retire.

Police dogs need to rest and not be distracted. They work and then they sleep...
They are not meant to play games with the kids like a pet would.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Thanks, just learned something new...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

maybe thats what police dogs do in your neck of the woods

Here, I know quite a few police dog handlers, with their partners (dogs) going to work with them, then going home with them and yep, playing with their kids They DO know the difference , guess I would call them very lucky working dogs


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> Most responsible police departments keep their dogs kennelled. They don't take them home...
> 
> The dogs go home with the police officer when they retire.
> 
> ...



Where are you coming up with your statistics? I'm assuming you researched to say with confidence that *most* departments keep their dogs kenneled. 

Also the statistics of the K9's biting the handlers. I would like to see the breeds of this as well. I'm not saying this doesn't happen because it does. The key is to understand why.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

mycobraracr, I'll bet your mean ole schutzund dogs don't hang with the family  (yes I'm being sarcastic here


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our police K9s live with their handlers, working and after retirement.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> mycobraracr, I'll bet your mean ole schutzund dogs don't hang with the family  (yes I'm being sarcastic here


Nope! Never! These pictures are of all different dogs.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Our police K9s live with their handlers, working and after retirement.


Okay, back to what I always thought.. 

And Mycob, very nice!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Just because you do it, doesn't mean its right.... Sure there are other opinions to this.. but yea... Lets not pretend that Police dogs are non-risk in a family environment.
I may have been wrong about them not going home... But obviously they need to be supervised by handler... Or basically restricted from rest of family in a kennel.

Ed Frawley:

Can a dual purpose police service dog stay in the house at night, live as a house dog, play with the family and then go to work and function efficiently?

ANSWER:

The answer to this question is pure and simple: "NO!!!!" Assuming that a dog is properly selection tested and properly trained as a police service dog, this is absolutely a bad idea and here is why:

Police dogs are not pets, they are tools for law enforcement. Their job is to perform at the highest level of proficiency when on duty. The life of their handler may require this. Any dog that is a family pet is going to enjoy being a pet far more than working as a police dog. When this happens, the police work suffers. So when a police service dog is off duty, he should be resting in his kennel so he is 100% ready for his next shift.

There is nothing wrong with a police dog knowing the family and being around the family when it is under the supervision of the handler. From that standpoint the dog can come under the fold of the family pack setting. But under no circumstances should a police service dog be put in a position where it is expected to take orders from the officer's children or spouse.

Police Officers would never allow their family members to take control of their service weapon, the same holds true for their police dog. If this happens the officer is courting disaster. There is too much of a risk of the dog biting a family member or guest when unsupervised by the handler.

New handlers are always better police officers than dog trainers. This is a simple fact of life and not meant as a critical statement. Many handlers have never owned a working dog, many have never owned any dog before. These men and women are then given a high drive adult dog and sent through 6 or 8 weeks of basic training. As such, they often do not have the experience to deal with new police dogs interacting with their family and friends. They incorrectly assume that because their dog tolerates and minds them, they will also get along with their family, friends and neighbors, not so!

I even believe that every police department should have a policy that their service dogs should be put in a professional boarding kennel when the officer is on vacation. To allow family friends to feed and clean up after the police dog is too high of a risk for any department to take
It's important that everyone who is shaking their head at this advice understand that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of police dogs working the street in this country that have no business being there. These are dog's that lack hunt and fight drive. These dogs would never stand ground and protect their handlers. I recently answered a question in an email from police handler who has been assigned a WHITE GERMAN SHEPHERD. I will guarantee you that there is no white german shepherd anywhere that has the drives to be a patrol dog. This also goes for departments that are mistakenly using American bloodline German Shepherds as patrol dogs.

Departments that continue to use poorly selected dogs which are unqualified for this work can let their dogs be house dogs, they may as well be pets, they are no good for anything else.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Lykoz.... I'm sorry, I don't know where you are getting your information or experience from, but I know for a fact that some (not all counties /cities etc, but some for sure) police dogs reside with their families during down time. They do socialize with family members (although they have one handler) and are exceptionally good at their job. They LOVE their job, they were bred to work. They have less ulcers and emotional issues because of the socialization with family and their down time... I don't know about white German Shepherds not making the cut, but I wouldn't pass judgment until you've seen the dog work.. Who would think of a golden retriever or Labrador being aggressive or defensive enough for IPO, but, some are and do it well. Obviously, some breeds are better adept and more likely to succeed, but washing out a white gsd because it's white without seeing it in action is premature, imo....


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

WGSDCII? - Hall of Fame


Just for one. There are more listed on the page.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Are you sure he still thinks that? On another thread you we're pretty happy to point out how he's "evolved' in his training ideas.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Just because you do it, doesn't mean its right.... Sure there are other opinions to this.. but yea... Lets not pretend that Police dogs are non-risk in a family environment.
> I may have been wrong about them not going home... But obviously they need to be supervised by handler... Or basically restricted from rest of family in a kennel.
> 
> Ed Frawley:
> ...


Lykoz, if you're going to quote a "breeder and not a professional trainer," your going off topic in a huge way..


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Lykoz.... I'm sorry, I don't know where you are getting your information or experience from, but I know for a fact that some (not all counties /cities etc, but some for sure) police dogs reside with their families during down time. They do socialize with family members (although they have one handler) and are exceptionally good at their job. They LOVE their job, they were bred to work. They have less ulcers and emotional issues because of the socialization with family and their down time... I don't know about white German Shepherds not making the cut, but I wouldn't pass judgment until you've seen the dog work.. Who would think of a golden retriever or Labrador being aggressive or defensive enough for IPO, but, some are and do it well. Obviously, some breeds are better adept and more likely to succeed, but washing out a white gsd because it's white without seeing it in action is premature, imo....


The REASON a white GSD cant be a service dog is because they need two recessive GENES from Each Parent!

"Research has shown that a recessive e allele at the Extension (E) gene is at least partially responsible for cream and white coat color. The (E) gene, now identified as the Melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) gene, is one of the two genes known to code for alleles that are absolutely fundamental to the formation of all German Shepherd Dog colored coat variations. When the recessive allele is inherited from each breeding pair parent, the e/e genotype offspring of certain breeds, including white coat dogs from German Shepherd breed lines, always have cream or white colored coats"

How can you possibly enforce selective breeding and good selection of dogs... If you are breeding for specifically for COAT?
It makes absolutely no sence...

You breed for temperament!! It is highly unlikely to match a white coat with the required temperament!!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> Lykoz, if you're going to quote a "breeder and not a professional trainer," your going off topic in a huge way..


Breeding is one of the most important aspects of SELECTING THE RIGHT DOGS TO DO THE TASK....

Also he has trained and certified Police Dogs for active duty for over 10 years...
I dont know who is spreading information that he is just a breeder!!!! Ed Frawley DOES NOT even Breed dogs anymore!


I will always value the opinion of a true dog professional over Trainers who are 'officers', and often got the position due to their 'connections' in the force

One is a professional dog man... The other is not.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

You're assuming that a white coat cropped up out of a patterned pair. It could be white German shepherd/ blanc suisse ! If the dog has the temperament coat color is obsolete! Obviously those breeding for the police know this and are not breeding for coat color (solely, if it all), but stranger things have happened and do - and blanket statements just make some rise to the challenge


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Breeding is one of the most important aspects of SELECTING THE RIGHT DOGS TO DO THE TASK....


I am not here to argue with anyone, per-say. This is a mis-information thread. Dog selection comes after the 2 - 3 year mark and the training. Then and only then can a dog be determined to be a suitable K-9 Police dog. I will agree, that a child should not give a police dog commands, that could be a potential disaster.. I will give you that, all day long...


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> I am not here to argue with anyone, per-say. This is a mis-information thread. Dog selection comes after the 2 - 3 year mark and the training. Then and only then can a dog be determined to be a suitable K-9 Police dog. I will agree, that a child should not give a police dog commands, that could be a potential disaster.. I will give you that, all day long...


Does not change the fact that police dogs are selectively bred to start with...

This is a very important consideration...
You cant breed show lines and expect a good turnover rate in Police service dogs...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

:headbang: Ohhhh, its a mis- information thread. I missed that. Sorry bout that.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> You're assuming that a white coat cropped up out of a patterned pair. It could be white German shepherd/ blanc suisse ! If the dog has the temperament coat color is obsolete! Obviously those breeding for the police know this and are not breeding for coat color (solely, if it all), but stranger things have happened and do - and blanket statements just make some rise to the challenge


YES I AM ASSUMING THAT! That is the ONLY possible way the dog MIGHT be partly relevant as a police dog.

It would be even more ridiculous to assume that two white GSD's... i.e. now called Swiss shepherds would produce the right temperaments for police work.
We are talking dogs that come from show lines.. Sometimes Working lines... Who were bred JUST FOR COAT... Over a couple of generations... And suddenly expect to see working characteristics.... No consideration for either AKC standards from a show line perspective... or temperament and drives from a working line perspective..

The GSD was designed initially as a working dog... So what you are saying now... Is breed show-lines... maybe breed some working lines... Then mix all of this... And try find a White Dog... Then another white dog... Quite rare to begin with.... Then forcibly breed these dogs based on absolutely NOTHING but Coat Colour... And then magically expect for the dogs to suddenly start breeding high drive dogs again... It just doesn't make any sense...
This is on a very rudimentary level... Im sure Ed Frawley who was in fact a very reputable breeder for police dogs... Knows even better why he was so absolute in that statement...

But common sense.. A little bit of knowledge on the basics of why breed working lines... can pretty much see what he meant...

The White GSD quite simply put has been bread for too long exclusively just for coat... Which devalues what a working dog is all about!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm not going to continue this line of thought as thread has already been hijacked and needs to be put back on track....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> :headbang: Ohhhh, its a mis- information thread. I missed that. Sorry bout that.


It's off to a good start!!!

Lykoz- I suggest you get off that island more often.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Thank you. To those who see the ridiculousness and those who ignore. I feel better now.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> Firstly I am not a proffesional dog trainer.


As we move through this discussion people should keep this in mind. It speaks directly to your education, experience and training. 



Lykoz said:


> A police dog for example is NOT a pet dog...


Quite a few police dogs ARE the family pet. As with other such statements, this one is too absolute. I advocate that police dogs are kenneled at the handler's home when they're not working, but many don't do this. I didn't when I was a handler ages ago, and many still don't do it. 



Lykoz said:


> Seeing police dogs and working dogs more in action, is a very welcomed thing... I enjoy it every time..
> 
> A GSD for example lives for approximately 10 years. In those 10 years it may never bite... Or it may bite its handler just once, and cause Serious grievous damage. That is enough to even kill somebody. * That one bite for a Pet owner is unacceptable.... *


Many pet owners get bitten by their own dogs many times. I've had many such clients. 



Lykoz said:


> I have owned 8 dogs in my life and none have ever turned to bite me or shown any aggression to me.


I was bitten by my own PSD (Police Service Dog) once, when I was a new handler, and someone who I thought knew what he was doing, told me to "Alpha Roll" him. I got bitten for my trouble and that's when I realized that this trainer really didn't know quite as much as I thought he did. I've been training police dogs for about 35 years. I've never had a handler bitten by his own dog during that training. 



Lykoz said:


> The dogs you are speaking about are highly trained and highly effective... They always look good when you see them doing their thing...


If you're talking about PSD's, you're wrong. Sometimes they ARE NOT highly trained OR highly effective. Sometimes, if you know what to look for, they DO NOT _"look good when you see them doing their thing."_ The state of LE K−9 training in this country, is nowhere near what it could be. 



Lykoz said:


> It does not change the fact that it would be negligence to let your kid play with a police dog the same way you might let them play with a pet dog.


Oddly, I let _"kid play with [my] police dog the same way [that I'd] let them play with a pet dog"_ frequently. It's a matter of proper selection and training. 



Lykoz said:


> Police dog have OFTEN bitten their handlers.


Yep. Usually this is from over the top physical corrections. There's almost never a need for them if you're training correctly. But I regularly see handlers and trainers who use them more often than not. 



Lykoz said:


> They are trained in highly stressful situations. * They often bite the wrong targets. * There are a lot of reports all over the internet on this. They have a much higher risk profile.


Actually it's relatively rare that they _"bite the wrong targets."_ As to the Net, the reason it draws attention is that is it's so rare. If it was commonplace, it wouldn't be news. They do have a _"higher risk profile"_ than a pet, because few pets are trained to bite. Nor do most of them have the temperament to do so. 



Lykoz said:


> A lot of them have to leave the program, because they cant handle the work..


This is usually a matter of poor selection. 



Lykoz said:


> If they were forced to do the work, they could be neurologically damaged... Dogs not tailored to this type of training can literally have a breakdown if forced to do it.


Dogs should not be forced to do this kind or work. Not only is it dangerous for the handlers, it's not efficient for the purpose. If a dog is forced into doing scent work, the main reason that PSDs exist, they will not do well at the difficult scent problems that they are faced with. It's relatively easy to 'force train' a retriever, the scent problems are fairly easy. It's just about impossible to get good results this way with a PSD. 



Lykoz said:


> You need a very specific type of dog, to manage the program. It is not by chance that police dogs are HIGLY expensive to breed...


Uh, it costs the same to breed a bunch of mutts as it does to breed a police dog. lol. More than likely you're talking about the investment in purchasing the sire and dam? 



Lykoz said:


> Infact getting your hands on a specifically bred litter for the police is not easy... And if you do... You will pay a lot.


Anyone who is breeding specifically for LE work is going to get a very small return on his investment if the selection process is done properly. When I go looking for a PSD I will look mostly at dogs that have been brought into the US by brokers/venders specifically for the purpose of selling them as police dogs. Often I'll look at 200 dogs, and will reject all of them. Those dogs go onto LE work on departments with other standards than mine. That is one reason that you hear of handlers and "the wrong person" getting bit as often as you do. 



Lykoz said:


> The trainers are more specific in training police dogs... If the dog cant cut it... The dog is out the program... * A pet dog owner cant just abandon his dog because the training isnt going well... *


Sure they can. And some do. 



Lykoz said:


> They deal with very specific and unique traits.


It's not that the _"traits"_ that are _"unique."_ It's that the drives of these dogs are 'pronounced.' 



Lykoz said:


> A police trained dog is not a suitable family pet.


Sorry, this is waaaaay to absolute. You'd be correct to say that MANY or SOME _"police trained dog[s are] not a suitable family pet "_ But many are. Again, I prefer them to be kenneled when not working but this is more so that the dog is 'hungry for work' and well rested when he does go to work, than his characteristics as a pet. 



Lykoz said:


> It could be argued that a dog trainer with only experience in police work might not be a good trainer out of that scope.


This is just as true as saying that someone who trains retrievers for competition _"might not be a good trainer out of that scope."_ It's not accurate to limit it to just _"trainer with only experience in police work "_


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> Temparment? I dont want to get into the psychology of words with you... * Strictly speaking can it change based on environment... * I don't know or care to find out.


Can you give us some examples of how the environment can change temperament? Perhaps I'm not understanding your meaning. 



Lykoz said:


> Can a dogs behaviour and aggressiveness change due to training... Most definitely Yes.


Isn't that why we train, to change behavior? 



Lykoz said:


> Police dogs are different to other dogs often both genetically and environmentally.


I'll disagree as to the first part, the genetic reference, of your statement. Pets, police K−9's and other domestic dogs are genetically identical, differing only as to such things color, predisposition to size, etc. The REAL difference between pets and PSDs is their level and balance of drives. That’s derived from their genetics and may be brought out by the (training) environment, but as this time, we're not able to look at a dog's genetics and predict whether he'll be a successful PSD candidate or not. We probably will never be able to. 



Lykoz said:


> Their Temparment/behaviour/agressiveness is of a different profile to your average pet dog.
> 
> * They need a different approach. *


Different how? 



Lykoz said:


> Sport dogs deal with much different stressors to a police dog with a real fighting assailant...
> 
> To think they need to trained the same way is naive...


Been saying this for decades. 



Lykoz said:


> Similarly a police dog and a pet dog are even more different.


Since there are different goals with the average pet, it's only reasonable that the training is different.



Lykoz said:


> Most responsible police departments keep their dogs kennelled. They don't take them home...


I'm sorry, this is simply wrong. I've been across the US and MOST departments have their handlers take their dogs home with them. Many of those handlers kennel their dogs at home, but not all do. In fact, it's quite rare that a department will have a central kennel for their K−9's. Characterizing departments who do it this way as not _"responsible"_ is silly. 



Lykoz said:


> The dogs go home with the police officer when they retire.


Most handlers purchase their dogs from the department when the dog retires. Usually it's a nominal sum. 



Lykoz said:


> Police dogs need to rest and not be distracted. They work and then they sleep...
> They are not meant to play games with the kids like a pet would.


Sorry, again this is wrong. MANY police K−9's are the family pet when they're off duty.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Debanneball said:


> Thanks, just learned something new...


Be careful who you pick to learn from, Debanneball. Lykoz' information on some things, the information about police dogs for example, is quite wrong.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

mycobraracr said:


> Where are you coming up with your statistics? I'm assuming you researched to say with confidence that *most* departments keep their dogs kenneled.


Lykoz is wrong on this. 



mycobraracr said:


> Also the statistics of the K9's biting the handlers. I would like to see the breeds of this as well. I'm not saying this doesn't happen because it does. The key is to understand why.


The breeds that are doing this are whatever is in use by LE. These days that's mostly the Mals. In part that's because some people are using the same techniques on them that they used on the GSD's that came before them. It's a very different breed with very different traits and drives.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> Just because you do it, doesn't mean its right.... Sure there are other opinions to this.. but yea... Lets not pretend that Police dogs are non-risk in a family environment.


I haven't seen anyone say that _"Police dogs are non-risk in a family environment."_ Depending on their selection and training they might not be able to be around anyone, or they could be an acceptable family pet. 



Lykoz said:


> I may have been wrong about them not going home... But obviously they need to be supervised by handler... Or basically restricted from rest of family in a kennel.


You were wrong about them going home and SOME of them, but not all need to be _"... basically restricted from rest of family in a kennel."_



Lykoz said:


> Ed Frawley:
> 
> Can a dual purpose police service dog stay in the house at night, live as a house dog, play with the family and then go to work and function efficiently?


Can we ask that when you quote someone else that you provide a link so that we can see the context of what has been said? 

Lykoz quotes the article


> ANSWER:
> 
> The answer to this question is pure and simple: "NO!!!!"


First, that article is not dated, and so we have no idea when it was written. Mr. Frawley has been 'born again' several times and he doesn't remove the old material from his site, so it can't be determine if this is his current thinking or not. IN FACT, we don't even know if this is his opinion or not. It's from a column entitled "Ask Cindy" who used to be his GF/SO. Many of the other answers are signed by him, but this one is not. It's very possible that SHE wrote the article, NOT Mr. Frawley, to whom you attributed it. 

Second, Mr. Frawley is not, and never has been, a full time police K−9 handler or trainer, so he's writing (if, it's even him writing the response) from OUTSIDE the profession. Like you, he only knows what he's been told and what he's seen himself. 

Lykoz quotes the article


> Assuming that a dog is properly selection tested and properly trained as a police service dog, this is absolutely a bad idea and here is why:
> 
> Police dogs are not pets, they are tools for law enforcement. Their job is to perform at the highest level of proficiency when on duty. The life of their handler may require this. * Any dog that is a family pet is going to enjoy being a pet far more than working as a police dog. * When this happens, the police work suffers. So when a police service dog is off duty, he should be resting in his kennel so he is 100% ready for his next shift.


The highlighted part is nonsense. Any dog that has been properly selected for the level and balance of drives to be a PSD, spends his waking moments thinking about a hunt. That is far more satisfying than playing with the kids, lolling around the fireplace or being petted by his handler. 

Lykoz quotes the article


> Police Officers would never allow their family members to take control of their service weapon, the same holds true for their police dog.


In truth, there are MANY situations where it would be appropriate for a family member to _"take control of the service weapon."_ 

Lykoz quotes the article


> It's important that everyone who is shaking their head at this advice


Even the author, whoever it might be, realizes that some who are _"shaking their heads at this advice."_ 

Lykoz quotes the article


> understand that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of police dogs working the street in this country that have no business being there.


Another trainer once said at a seminar I was attending, that he thought that half of the police dogs on the street were not suited for the work. He asked my opinion of that and I said that I thought his number was too low. 

Lykoz quotes the article


> These are dog's that lack hunt and fight drive. These dogs would never stand ground and protect their handlers.


There are quite a bit more reasons why they're not suited. Lacking these two alone, does not make them suitable for being pets. It makes them not suited for being PSDs. But this author is WRONG when he says that such a dog (that lacks hunt and fight drive) _"would never stand ground and protect their handler."_ This is another drive completely and just because a dog lacks hunt or fight does not mean he'll run from a fight. 

Lykoz quotes the article


> I recently answered a question in an email from police handler who has been assigned a WHITE GERMAN SHEPHERD. I will guarantee you that there is no white german shepherd anywhere that has the drives to be a patrol dog. This also goes for departments that are mistakenly using American bloodline German Shepherds as patrol dogs.


I've never had a white GSD pass my test to be a police dog, but there may be one out there. But the comment about _"American bloodline German Shepherds"_ is completely wrong. It matters, not in the slightest where the bloodline originated from, it ONLY matters what this dog is made of. This statement is just part of a sales pitch.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Are you sure he still thinks that? On another thread you we're pretty happy to point out how he's "evolved' in his training ideas.


Yep. Exactly. We have no way of knowing where he was in his 'evolution' when this article was written, OR even if he is its author.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lykoz said:


> Breeding is one of the most important aspects of SELECTING THE RIGHT DOGS TO DO THE TASK....


The ONLY thing that's important in selecting a good candidate for a PSD is the selection. It makes absolutely no difference what the dog's breeding is. It only matters what THIS dog has. 



Lykoz said:


> I will always value the opinion of a true dog professional over Trainers who are 'officers', and often got the position due to their 'connections' in the force


Wondering how you'd know how often _"officers ... get [the trainer] position due to their 'connections' in the force"_ rather than through merit? Is this 'something else that you heard" along the lines of how many departments have a central kennel for their K−9's? I have no doubt that it happen occasionally but you say that it happens _"often"_ so I'm curious as to your source for this information? 



Lykoz said:


> Does not change the fact that police dogs are selectively bred to start with...


Most police dogs in the US were bred in Europe to be sport dogs. It's almost exclusively ONLY after they are determined to be not suitable for that kind or work, that they are sold to US brokers and then become police dogs. But that's not the only source. Many PSDs WERE NOT _"selectively bred."_ Many were rescued from the pound, especially if you consider detection dogs. As long as the dog in question has the right level and balance of drives and "looks the part" he might be a candidate. 



Lykoz said:


> This is a very important consideration...
> You cant breed show lines and expect a good turnover rate in Police service dogs...


It happens occasionally. It's not about the breeding. It's about the dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

gsdsar said:


> Thank you. To those who see the ridiculousness and those who ignore. I feel better now.


I wish I could ignore _"the ridiculousness."_ But a friend asked me to take a look and there is SO MUCH MIS−information being presented that I could not hold my tongue.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

Holy cow! Lou is in the house!!! lol. But seriously Lou, I appreciate you taking the time to go through all this and lay it out. Bravo.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> Lykoz is wrong on this.
> 
> 
> 
> The breeds that are doing this are whatever is in use by LE. These days that's mostly the Mals. In part that's because some people are using the same techniques on them that they used on the GSD's that came before them. It's a very different breed with very different traits and drives.



I agree with you Lou. My questions were more rhetorical. Every dog I've seen re-direct, did so because of an unfair correction. Those that know what to look for, could see them coming way before they happened. I've also seen them from mostly mals and dutchies. Breeds that are notorious for not thinking and just acting. That is why I asked the questions I did.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> Be careful who you pick to learn from, Debanneball. Lykoz' information on some things, the information about police dogs for example, is quite wrong.


Yes Lou, I just reread, thanks for clearing a lot of information up.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

What is further infuriating.. Is that trainers like Lou attack other trainers for not being able to do correct police work training when they have a focus on Sport work...
This is a justifiable comment...

However in the same breath they claim that Police Dog work is COMPLETELY transferable to Pet dogs... 

Any PET DOG... MUST BE LOW RISK...
We can not INCREASE their FIGHT DRIVES to such a large extent... and NOT expect some form of Associated RISK to a Family Environment.

This is careless to say the least.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

In dogs with solid temperament you can get away with it. It's poorly selected ones with questionable nerves that can become ticking time bombs when facing inappropriate (for them) training to put them in defense. 

Teach a dog he can turn off pressure with a bite only becomes a problem when you have a dog with nerves to the point he perceives pressure where it doesn't really exist.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

*Happy Face !*



Baillif said:


> In dogs with solid temperament you can get away with it. It's poorly selected ones with questionable nerves that can become ticking time bombs when facing inappropriate (for them) training to put them in defense.
> 
> Teach a dog he can turn off pressure with a bite only becomes a problem when you have a dog with nerves to the point he perceives pressure where it doesn't really exist.


Baillif, thank you for your contribution to this thread. I have tremendous respect for you as a Professional Trainer.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Pretty sure most would agree my male would (as a pup) pass selection testing for a patrol dog. Basing this on numerous police and military trainers we've training with, and much of the literature including the section of Bradshaws book "controlled agression" that is about selection testing for a patrol dog. I've trained him for sport and primarily personal protection. Pretty sure anyone who has worked him knows he will bite "for real". Pretty sure we are nearing 8 years with near daily interaction in public with kids both behaved an obnoxious, adults both behaved and belligerently drunk, dogs both behaved and out of control and aggressive, etc. Pretty sure we've had not one snip, lunge, bite, or scratch. Pretty sure he could be a patrol dog, eat someone alive, and then give pony rides to a toddler that evening. So my experience tells me a dog trained to do real violence with malice in his heart can discern and put that down t home... Same as a cop, or combat veteran.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I thought I had replied to this thread. But I don't see it. 

I think it's a good start in seeing how passionate people are to their opinions. At this point you have to ask yourself, "what constitutes a professional dog trainer?" Experience? Opinion? Common sense? Having trained 5 dogs, 20, 50, 1000? Years of training? I don't know. My opinion is experience and success rate. Not so much the number of dogs trained. But maybe a variety of dogs also. Again, just an opinion.

I personally think the training techniques have to vary depending on the dog itself, it's environment of operation. But mostly on the dogs mental makeup. So in short, not all dogs need the same techniques. So there may be some misinformation, but not all techniques will work for every dog. Just my personal unprofessional opinion.

As far as Lou goes. We have had discussions about training. We agree on most things, but others we may not. But in the end in my opinion, he has sound proven techniques that work. That to me constitutes a professional.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> I've never had a white GSD pass my test to be a police dog, but there may be one out there.


K9 Conan comes to mind.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jafo220 said:


> I thought I had replied to this thread. But I don't see it.
> 
> I think it's a good start in seeing how passionate people are to their opinions. At this point you have to ask yourself, "what constitutes a professional dog trainer?" Experience? Opinion? Common sense? Having trained 5 dogs, 20, 50, 1000? Years of training? I don't know. My opinion is experience and success rate. Not so much the number of dogs trained. But maybe a variety of dogs also. Again, just an opinion.
> 
> I personally think the training techniques have to vary depending on the dog itself, it's environment of operation. But mostly on the dogs mental makeup. So in short, not all dogs need the same techniques. So there may be some misinformation, but not all techniques will work for every dog. Just my personal unprofessional opinion.


100% agree. Do your methods work? Have you repeated your success IN THE VENUE I need? Do you train in a humane way that allows the dog to be a dog? that is a big one for me. The old yank and crank, force the dog thru fear of punishment, is not for me. 

Temperaments, thresholds, drives, all vary from breed to breed and not all methods will work on all dogs. A good trainer adjusts their base methods to the dog before them.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

jafo220 said:


> I personally think the training techniques have to vary depending on the dog itself, it's environment of operation. But mostly on the dogs mental makeup. So in short, not all dogs need the same techniques. So there may be some misinformation, but not all techniques will work for every dog. Just my personal unprofessional opinion.


The rest of the world agrees. If anyone tells me "this is how it's done for all dogs, in all cases" I've more or less already dismissed them


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