# 9 month old GSD afraid of strangers



## Stackable (May 3, 2016)

Hello. We have a 9 month old female GSD. This is our first puppy. She is doing great on everything except her reaction to strangers. Whether it be in public or even coming in my house. If anyone gets too close to her (besides immediate family) she barks and sometimes lunges. I take her for walks daily and she does great as long as someone doesn't walk by us. We have purchased a muzzle hoping this will help us let her close to people without worrying what she will do. We are not sure how to go about doing this. She is fine with the muzzle, so that part is good. When we have people come over, do we give them treats to give to her? Do we have them ignore her? Outside I just want to make sure she won't hurt anyone if they come close.

Like I said, this is our first puppy and while I'm doing all the reading and researching I can, we are not perfect. I hate the judging looks and comments I get while trying to help her through this. So please, only positive, helpful responses to this would be appreciated.


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## Della Luna (Jul 14, 2015)

I am far from an authority on this subject, but I will tell you about my experiences.

I think the muzzle is a good idea, even if it is not necessary, it will give you peace of mind so that you can focus on keeping the situation positive for your pup without stressing out about a possible bite.

I do wonder about her body language when she barks and lunges. Nine months is still young to be truly aggressive, but not impossible. At nine months old, my GSD pup could probably have been described as lunging at people, and she definitely would bark at some strangers. However, it was in a friendly way. She was just being a puppy and wanting to greet everyone. This can definitely look intimidating to those who are not accustomed to GSD's. She had a deep, loud bark, would sometimes hackle, flattened her ears against her head, liked to snap her teeth together in front of people's faces (a herding dog behavior), and also 'smiles' with her teeth (which can look very aggressive but is not). Even to people who are used to being around dogs could easily interpret this as aggression, when in fact it was just over-exuberance. Of course, just because it was not aggressive did not mean that the behavior was in any way acceptable.

When I was at this stage of my pup lunging at strangers, I decided not to allow anyone to greet my dog. Instead, I did obedience work when we neared a situation that I knew would elicit the unwanted behavior. The key was to get her attention and start asking her to work BEFORE I lost her attention to the approaching stranger. Once she became more attentive to me, over several weeks, I started to allow certain people in certain situations to approach/pet her. I don't like other people feeding my dog. Treats always come from me. I control the situation, demand that she remain calm, and reward her from my own hand. If she cannot control herself, I simply remove myself and her from the situation, and find a distance at which she can pay attention to me instead of the stranger.

My two cents, at least.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Della said ^^^ And try to avoid letting her practice the behavior.When people back away when she barks it's accomplishing exactly what she wants.Better she learns to ignore.


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## Stackable (May 3, 2016)

Della, Thank you. We have been trying to read up on what "aggressive" behavior looks like and I agree with you, we do not believe it is aggressive. Her bark is deep and most people around us have small dogs, so I am positive it is scary. I like the idea of treats coming from us, it seems to build a bond. We will try the distracting and having her focus on us more. Thank you for the tips.


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## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Hi there! This sounds almost like my puppy - 5 month old. You can see my thread here: Socialiation Steps. It might help you with some of your problems you are having and give you some techniques.

The muzzle is a good call, just for everyone's safety really. From what I have learned, as this is my first GSD as well, is that you need to control the situation. You need to make your dog focus on you when situations occur. Which means you have to be jolly-on-the-spot making sure you are aware of passerby's and other people at all times (it's impossible to get every single person so don't try to be perfect with it). 

What I have been doing is called desensitization. Essentially, you find your dogs threshold (the amount of distance that you can get close to the trigger(person) before she loses her focus) and then start there. And what I have done is basically when she notices the trigger, I begin instantly treating and praising. The whole time the trigger walks by. Then, when the trigger is past us I stop. The goal is to associate the dog with "when a person comes by, I get good things" - it doesn't have to be a person either, it can be a bike, a cone, a scooter, anything really. There are some good links posted in my thread regarding this technique, one of which is called C.A.R.E. I believe - extremely good article. 

When people come over I would crate her initially. Have your guests come in and tell them "She's going to bark and be crazy, ignore her as if she isn't even there. Don't make eye contact. Just let her do her thing". You can give them each a treat bag as well. Then, let your dog out. More than likely she will freak out, but try and ignore the behavior while making sure she doesn't get to out of control. Then, when she settles or does something good, you can treat her. This would also be the time to get her attention on you, don't let her focus on the other people but instead put her in the "watch me" command or "sit". When she starts approaching your guests, they can toss the treats in front of them at her so she does not have to directly take them (unless you don't want anyone else feeding your dog of course) - during this time make sure there is still no eye contact either (less intimidating for the dog). 

Others, feel free to correct me on some of these things as I am still learning also.


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## randyhernz (Aug 17, 2016)

Have you done any obedience training with this dog? Im going to assume you haven’t and that I believe is the issue here. I’m not saying you are at fault, but this would be my approach and advice to fix this issue.

Like you’ve stated, your dog is fearful of strangers, it most likely feels that way because it has to, because it hasn’t getting the leadership and guidance from you. You need to build a relationship with that dog that shows her you are relevant and that you can and will advocate for her when needed. I’m not talking about cuddling with her on the couch, I’m talking about building a relationship through training.

You need to give that dog a job to do, and on the walks outside that job is ‘heel’ walking next to you or slightly behind, paying attention to you, not the world around her. Sitting when you stop as well. 
Especially now, but you should always create space between your dog and other people or dogs on the walk. You’ve got a leash reactive dog so use space to your advantage. I’m going to guess that when your dog barks and acts out, you create space moving further away from the ‘threat’ so your dog has learned this behavior… “when I feel scared or nervous approaching people and I bark and act this way, my handler moves me away from the situation” So this is how your dog copes with the situation. 

My advice is a full obedience foundation for that dog. Sit, Down, Heel, Recall, Place, Crate trained, Obeys Thresholds (front door, car door, crate door), Waits for Food, etc. I wont tell you what tools to use, but once you teach that dog Heel and it decides to focus on other people on the walk and begins to show interest and get alert, you need to interrupt that behavior and let her know its not acceptable.


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## Stackable (May 3, 2016)

Jonny, Thank you for the great advice. This sounds like it is exactly what I need to do. I was so excited yesterday, we had a visitor. So, before they got there I got Riley comfortable with having her muzzle on and when the visitor arrived I explained to just ignore Riley, don't make eye contact, pretend she isn't even there. She did nothing, no barking, just followed us around to see what we were doing. It felt awesome. I have also been leaving the front window open and she watches all of the kids play, she is getting better about barking at them.I will keep trying with the desensitization.

Randy, Thank you for your advice also. She did have a "puppy" training class when she was younger and we have not been able to take her back for more, but I have worked daily with her. We walk every morning, she is heeling really well. I stop before I cross every street and she sits and waits for me to say heel and we start walking again. She knows sit, down, shake, leave it, waits for food. She is fully crate trained, sleeps in one every night and is in one if we need to leave the house without her. We are working on the thresholds part, we make her sit at the back door with it open until we say to go out it and at the front door for walks. We also taught her to speak on command. Can't say she is perfect with all of this, but I do not think it is from lack of trying to give her guidance on what to do. 

When we are on walks, yes, I tend to stay away from people, but my husband does not, he will walk right by them distracting her with treats the whole time. I will keep working on all of this and I'm sure as we both get better with our training, we can get through this.


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## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

Stackable said:


> Jonny, Thank you for the great advice. This sounds like it is exactly what I need to do. I was so excited yesterday, we had a visitor. So, before they got there I got Riley comfortable with having her muzzle on and when the visitor arrived I explained to just ignore Riley, don't make eye contact, pretend she isn't even there. She did nothing, no barking, just followed us around to see what we were doing. It felt awesome. I have also been leaving the front window open and she watches all of the kids play, she is getting better about barking at them.I will keep trying with the desensitization.
> 
> Randy, Thank you for your advice also. She did have a "puppy" training class when she was younger and we have not been able to take her back for more, but I have worked daily with her. We walk every morning, she is heeling really well. I stop before I cross every street and she sits and waits for me to say heel and we start walking again. She knows sit, down, shake, leave it, waits for food. She is fully crate trained, sleeps in one every night and is in one if we need to leave the house without her. We are working on the thresholds part, we make her sit at the back door with it open until we say to go out it and at the front door for walks. We also taught her to speak on command. Can't say she is perfect with all of this, but I do not think it is from lack of trying to give her guidance on what to do.
> 
> When we are on walks, yes, I tend to stay away from people, but my husband does not, he will walk right by them distracting her with treats the whole time. I will keep working on all of this and I'm sure as we both get better with our training, we can get through this.


Your puppy sounds exactly like mine. She knows pretty much the same exact things as well. The thresholds are good to work on at like a park or with a friend who has a social/outgoing/nonchalant dog - they are pretty difficult while on walks. The things to do with walks is you have to be the monitor. The second you see someone or something, instantly get the dog to put its attention on you (i.e. heel, sit, watch me, etc.). Keep the dog engaged with you while going past the trigger. If they break contact, redirect again. If the trigger is something that has to be avoided (like a crazy dog that you know will make your dog lose it) I would turn the other way and walk a different direction. 

It is a great feeling when you have a visitor come over or someone around the neighborhood and your dog doesn't act like a complete lunatic, haha! It is a slow and tedious progress, but with a lot of hard work and consistency you will get better and so will your dog. And yes, it will be EXTREMELY frustrating from time to time. But, you signed up for that when you got a GSD LOL


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## randyhernz (Aug 17, 2016)

Stackable said:


> Jonny, Thank you for the great advice. This sounds like it is exactly what I need to do. I was so excited yesterday, we had a visitor. So, before they got there I got Riley comfortable with having her muzzle on and when the visitor arrived I explained to just ignore Riley, don't make eye contact, pretend she isn't even there. She did nothing, no barking, just followed us around to see what we were doing. It felt awesome. I have also been leaving the front window open and she watches all of the kids play, she is getting better about barking at them.I will keep trying with the desensitization.
> 
> Randy, Thank you for your advice also. She did have a "puppy" training class when she was younger and we have not been able to take her back for more, but I have worked daily with her. We walk every morning, she is heeling really well. I stop before I cross every street and she sits and waits for me to say heel and we start walking again. She knows sit, down, shake, leave it, waits for food. She is fully crate trained, sleeps in one every night and is in one if we need to leave the house without her. We are working on the thresholds part, we make her sit at the back door with it open until we say to go out it and at the front door for walks. We also taught her to speak on command. Can't say she is perfect with all of this, but I do not think it is from lack of trying to give her guidance on what to do.
> 
> When we are on walks, yes, I tend to stay away from people, but my husband does not, he will walk right by them distracting her with treats the whole time. I will keep working on all of this and I'm sure as we both get better with our training, we can get through this.


Great to hear you are doing obedience training with her. If she knows how to heel but gets distracted when seeing other people on the walk, you need to get her focused back on the task at hand (heeling), especially if shes barking and lunging at people, that is not acceptable behavior at all. If you wait until she explodes (barking/lunging) you've already lost the battle. You need to give her information prior to the explosion. As soon as you see her ears stand up, eyes getting wide, focusing in on the people, that is the moment to interrupt her so that she doesn't escalate.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

All this treat stuff does is mask the issue. Honestly, it doesn't work. I can think of a few people on here who found eventual success with their dogs who would agree. Moriah and DutchKarin for a couple, and myself.

I don't have a ton of time to articulate the whole thing, so I'll just post a video. Watch if you are interested in why food is not a good solution for a fearful or aggressive or over excited dog. I hate driving vids but this is the best one I can find in short order. Skip to 3:38 if you just want to hear about the issue with food.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If you reward at the wrong time it certainly won't help.A food reward after every aggressive display would be counterproductive.But a reward for ignoring people and keeping focus is a good thing.Lets the dog know what he's doing right.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

My dog was reactive to other dogs. Did Reactive Rover classes--and the behaviorist commented how timely I was with food reinforcement. But, the class did nothing for my GSD's reactivity. (And we did all the homework assignments.)

My experienced GSD trainer I worked with this summer first made sure my GSD was quick on the "down." Reinforcement was the "down" position turned off the e-collar. (The trainer had control of the e-collar as he had impeccable timing.) So now my dog knows that being down is a wonderful happy spot--no pressure & I am safe in a down.

Then, another dog is brought out while my dog on a down. He goes to break--immediate e-collar correction. "Down" is reinforced as happy place. "I stay down--no pressure and all is well. Down is a great command for me."

Fast forward--we are surprised by strange dog. My dog is ready to go into reaction--I say "Down!" and he drops and looks at me--he is in the safe zone so does not have to react. He stays in down and I let him watch the dog walk away. Hey, he did not have to act like an idiot to get the dog to walk away. He just had to drop into a down.

Now, dog knows he has to obey. We practice with trainer the "Heel." The dog moves his head out of the 12:00 to 3:00 position while heeling he is corrected on e-collar by trainer. Whoa! Safe spot--head in correct position so I cannot look at another dog. Also, e-collar correction for not being in correct placement next to handler. Whoa! Safe spot is next to handler. I see another dog safe spot is next to handler.

Lastly, the handler calls my name when I am on a break away from the handler. I turn and come back to area around handler and it is a happy thing. I ignore the handler or do not start immediately back to handler, the trainer corrects immediately with e-collar. 

Dog knows how to turn off the e-collar. Professional trainer with lots of experience with working dogs has fantastic timing and knows what level to work the dog. All commands on e-collar proofed by trainer with dog BEFORE handler goes home to work on skill. So the dog has a real direct causal relationship that the owner did not screw up because the trainer did the majority of the teaching.

I will add my dog is 2.5 years old. He knew all these skills. They were proofed with trainer.

Now, with proofed heeling, proofed casual recall, and proofed down I have control of a dog reactive dog. And he is a happy boy who looks at and to me because he is in the happy place. 

Now will I show up to an AKC group class? NOOOOOO!!! It is too much for him to have to be in close quarters with other dogs. But, we can go to the park now. We can have other dogs in the vicinity and if we are surprised by a dog, I can reliably down him!

Food never did those things for me by themselves. Do I use food rewards, yes, because it can build drive.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm glad you're happy with that training method and hopefully your dog is happy and well adjusted too.It's one of those things that sounds good on paper but I could never train that way myself.I can't have the relationship I want with my dogs while controlling them like they are machines.
I know it's a popular training method that others swear by and are happy with.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Lots of play between work and short training sessions with trainer. You can tell if the dog is stressed if he can't play like he usually does. I used a tug in at the training sessions. This trainer was a helper for years and a Shutzhund judge. He also works with LE departments.

I have only had to do one or two e-collar corrections on each command. The dog got it while working with the trainer.

I train with treats, too. My dog is thrilled. We go to a park at sunrise and he gets to run free. We've gone 5 days a week for the last 4 weeks. Corrected with e-collar only two times on casual recalls. We do about 3 recalls each trip to the park. He gets treats when he comes. He gets treats if he voluntarily comes back to me, too. He is thrilled to run....never could've happened before. He actually is more relaxed around dogs. I teach second grade. My dog is not treated like a machine.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know I'll be slammed for this, but it is so sad to see this breed with the issues above. GSD's should not be fearful or reactive. I wonder if the breeders these dogs are from are supporting their puppy buyers? I had(have) a reactive dog too, she is now almost 10 and I've managed her behaviors. Some things you can never train out. 
It really makes me upset that this breed is being failed so often. Whether through breeding or the handling/training. I know I had to learn how to handle Onyx, I'd never had a reactive aggressive dog before. She taught me so much. I'm glad I was willing to learn, as are many of the ones posting here. But how many dogs are failed, dumped, rehomed over and over because of their temperament....
I have other GSD's with great temperament/nerve and the difference is amazing. If only all breeders were doing right by this breed so these problems would never surface.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I contacted a well-known breeder (and well respected as far as I can tell on the forum), and asked her through e-mail why she brought a full sister of my dog's maternal grandfather into her breeding program. She said it was to bring civil into her breeding program. The extra bonus was the dam threw good hips to her puppies regardless of who the sire was.

I have spent a lot of time over the last two and a half years trying to find a trainer that "worked" for private lessons. I spent a lot of money at the beginning of the summer on a trainer who clearly didn't have the skills. When she wanted my dog to heel for her on the third session, and I let her take him, my dog who really knows what heel is, turned to face her from the front and walked backwards facing her while she walked. When she tried to correct him, he growled at her. It took her a while to get him under control. 

How much help was this?? And this training center breeds GSDs and while waiting in my car each session, there was always a GSD having a lesson in front of me. 

(I went to a Schutzhund Club last summer, but that was not an option this summer.)


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Moriah I meant no offense.Just putting my perspective out there.If I were in your shoes I might see things differently.We are both doing what we think is best.


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## amasson (Sep 5, 2016)

I'm a little late to this, but figured I would share my experience for anyone who might search this thread. I got my first white GSD back in December. Looking back, I should have known there was something a little off (bad genetics maybe, even though I vetted our breeder) when I picked her up since she was the only puppy not to come out of the pen with her mother to greet me. She went through the night in her crate without crying and seemed to adjust well. I even took her home to visit my family for Christmas (there were about 10 people) and she slept on the couch the entire time. She was smart as a whip (learned out to open our dresser drawers the first week we had her- she's still obsessed with socks).

Fast forward a bit. We had her in puppy socialization class at 10 weeks old for four weeks and then moved to the next level class which was also four weeks. She started barking at the instructors for no apparent reason (or so it seemed at the time). Then, she nipped one of the instructors when they tried to give her a treat. We wrote this off since the instructor opened her hand to give our pup the treat and closed it at the last second. After four weeks of that class, we put her in an intermediate level obedience class with the same trainers that was six weeks long. During this time, she became more reactive to people (mainly barking, but some lunging). Using a gentle leader was recommended to us during one class, and when the trainer tried to show us how to put it on, our pup nipped her again (which, after talking to a reputable behavior consultant, was apparently a big mistake on the trainer's part- the trainer should have let us put it on our pup). Anyways, the owner of the training company was brought in to observe our dog during a class because of this, and based on that, thought our dog might be aggressive and recommended a behavior consultant. We met with the consultant at our home for a few hours, and she said in her expert opinion that she didn't think it was aggression, but rather fear/anxiety, and basically chalked it up to GSD being more anxious and neurotic than other breeds, white GSD being even more so, and then having a female on top of that probably made matters worse- however, it looks like we might have some bad genetics as well. She gave us some techniques to try. The first was desensitization, anytime our dog sees a new person she gets a treat before even having the opportunity to react. The second was redirecting her attention (which has been a lifesaver!)- we do so by having a treat in a closed fist down by our side and saying 'front'; the treat is released when she comes to our hand instead of focusing on the 'distraction.' These two techniques used in conjunction with each other have really helped.

I can say, with great pride, our dog has become so much better. She couldn't be taken on a walk without barking and lunging at someone, forget about going to the pet store with us or anywhere with people for that matter. Just yesterday we were taking her to scent discrimination class (which I also attribute to this success by helping her build her confidence) which is held above a church; there were tons of people (20+) in the normally quiet lobby and she walked by without any rewards like it was nothing. We took the summer off from obedience classes, but resumed at the end of August, and her 'usual' trainers couldn't believe the difference. She even let a stranger pet her at the vet! I know there are a lot of mixed views on positive reinforcement and/or desensitization, but I can say in our case it has paid off. Do we still have work to do, of course. But she is leaps and bounds better than what she used to be. Keeping her working has also been a major contributing factor.

So, to recap, in my experience, making sure my dog had stellar obedience, building her confidence through scenting, and desensitization/positive reinforcement really made a huge difference, not only in her life, but also in mine- it can be super stressful having a reactive dog. I expected that GSD were wary of strange people based on all the research I did, but I was not ready for the amount of time, energy, stress, and work I would have to put in. With that said, she is a one of a kind dog, and I really couldn't imagine my life without her antics.


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## JonnyMac (May 24, 2016)

I am glad things are working and getting better - it is always a relief when you see things going in the right direction finally after all of your hard work, time, and dedication. I really like the idea of saying "front", or some other verbal cue, to get the dog to focus on you and not react. If you don't mind, can you elaborate a little bit more on this process? I think my pup would benefit from it tremendously. 

We do work on desensitization, but as you know it is sometimes hard to do while not having viable resources around you (cooperating individuals, dogs, owners, etc.). Scenting sounds like a very fun class and great mind stimulation - I am not sure if they have something like that where I am from, though. 

Thank you for keeping us updated - please continue. Good luck, and keep up the good work. While our dogs may drive us crazy, frustrate the heck out of us, and stress us out beyond belief, they truly do burn a special place in your heart and in the end make it all worth it.


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## amasson (Sep 5, 2016)

JonnyMac said:


> I am glad things are working and getting better - it is always a relief when you see things going in the right direction finally after all of your hard work, time, and dedication. I really like the idea of saying "front", or some other verbal cue, to get the dog to focus on you and not react. If you don't mind, can you elaborate a little bit more on this process? I think my pup would benefit from it tremendously.


Yes! 'Front' has been a lifesaver for us - sometimes our pup will be in the car and start barking, and all we have to do is say that word and she will come to my hand (even if there isn't a treat- in non-pressure scenarios we like to play the 'lottery game' where sometimes she gets the treat and sometimes she doesn't, it definitely keeps her motivated). Essentially, we started in our home with a treat in our fist and said 'front.' If she touched our fist we released the treat; and since she is super food motivated it was pretty easy. Once she got good at that, we started doing some leash training in the house where she was in heel position on our left side, we would say 'front' and she would have to cross over to our right hand side, where our fist was closed with a treat. Once it was proofed inside, we started outside and around family members/friends that she knew before putting her in a high pressure situation where we expected her to perform. It's a really great technique because not only do you redirect their attention, but you also reorient their body so they are facing you instead of the distraction. 

As for the desensitization, luckily (or not so lucky depending on the day and her mood) we live in a city where there are usually a lot of people walking around.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think there is a difference with HA versus DA. When I had Midnite evaluated for his reactivity I silently prayed it wasn't aggression and it was just dogs(which is all I was seeing). The trainer confirmed it was reactivity(leash), not aggression and told me point blank before the evaluation what the differences were and she would take a dog with DA or reactivity over HA anyday. The biggest thing being that reactivity can be trained out of them, DA can be managed using common sense but HA is a different kind of management with no room for error. 

I was able to train the reactivity out of Midnite. I used just about every tool and method available to me and combined everything. It took about 4 months of training everyday for 2-4 hours. I dedicated all my time to him, never missed a day. More then one trainer advised against an ecollar, so we did not use one. We used a prong, treats(very high value), redirection and focus. I found that the treats played a big role along with timing. He actually learned how to behave. We got to the root of the problem. Now we don't use treats ever. I still put a prong on him if there will be a whole bunch of dogs, but if there is a chance of only a few then we don't use the prong. We rely on focus. A simple leave it or watch me gets his focus on me and away from anything that is causing him to even think about not behaving.

I do obedience with all my dogs. I'm not sure I've ever seen front used the way it's described here. If I want my dog to look at me I tell them watch me, if I want them to ignore something I say leave it, if they are across the yard I tell them front and they run to me and sit in front of me, if I want them to go to my side I tell them side, if I want them to go around me and end on my left side I tell them around. If I want them to touch something I tell them touch. 

It doesn't really matter what command you use for whatever training your doing, you can say peanut butter for them to sit, but it does have to be consistent. If you choose to do further obedience training commands you are using for one thing might be used differently in classes you might take in the future.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Having owned both HA and DA, I have found HA to be easy peasy when compared to DA. I just put simple obedience on my HA dogs and use a little common sense and have no problems. Can't say the same about the DA dogs or even the leash reactive ones.

I even recently had one trainer tell me that DA is so nasty that an average dog with DA and HA will stop the fight with a man to go and fight a dog. It takes a lot of training and management to control it.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I know I'll be slammed for this, but it is so sad to see this breed with the issues above. GSD's should not be fearful or reactive. I wonder if the breeders these dogs are from are supporting their puppy buyers? I had(have) a reactive dog too, she is now almost 10 and I've managed her behaviors. Some things you can never train out.
> It really makes me upset that this breed is being failed so often. Whether through breeding or the handling/training. I know I had to learn how to handle Onyx, I'd never had a reactive aggressive dog before. She taught me so much. I'm glad I was willing to learn, as are many of the ones posting here. But how many dogs are failed, dumped, rehomed over and over because of their temperament....
> I have other GSD's with great temperament/nerve and the difference is amazing. If only all breeders were doing right by this breed so these problems would never surface.


Amen.

The best thing you can do for fearful dogs is obedience training. Train, train, train, train. Get control over the dog and build his confidence via good training.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Having owned both HA and DA, I have found HA to be easy peasy when compared to DA. I just put simple obedience on my HA dogs and use a little common sense and have no problems. Can't say the same about the DA dogs or even the leash reactive ones.
> 
> I even recently had one trainer tell me that DA is so nasty that an average dog with DA and HA will stop the fight with a man to go and fight a dog. It takes a lot of training and management to control it.


I respect your opinion and your experience with it, but I think a lot of people would disagree, including myself. A dog with HA carries way more liability. It's been described to me more then once as a ticking bomb. If a dog bites another dog, chances are you wont lose your house or your dog. If a dog bites a human you can lose everything, depending on the bite. Even the smallest bite can cause a dog to be put down in some areas. I would never expect nor trust most people to own a HA dog. It is constant management, it is way easier to avoid other dogs then people in general. The majority of people(owners,trainers and behaviorists) will stay away or recommend euthansia for these dogs because no one wants to be liable.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I respect your opinion and your experience with it, but I think a lot of people would disagree, including myself. A dog with HA carries way more liability. It's been described to me more then once as a ticking bomb. If a dog bites another dog, chances are you wont lose your house or your dog. If a dog bites a human you can lose everything, depending on the bite. Even the smallest bite can cause a dog to be put down in some areas. I would never expect nor trust most people to own a HA dog. It is constant management, it is way easier to avoid other dogs then people in general. The majority of people(owners,trainers and behaviorists) will stay away or recommend euthansia for these dogs because no one wants to be liable.


I do agree with the liability aspect but do not agree with the control and management end. The average HA dog does not see a human and decide it must attack, unlike a dog that is DA. Most HA dogs need a trigger, a reason, they just don't up and attack. You don't need to avoid people, you just need to know your dog's triggers and watch out for them. A DA dog attacks just because it sees a dog, the other dog is the trigger. Chances are that if dogs are permitted where your have our DA dog, somebody else will have a dog there too making it very difficult to avoid other dogs.

I have never avoided going anywhere with my HA dogs but my DA or dog reactive dogs were always my first choice to leave at home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I do agree with the liability aspect but do not agree with the control and management end. The average HA dog does not see a human and decide it must attack, unlike a dog that is DA. Most HA dogs need a trigger, a reason, they just don't up and attack. You don't need to avoid people, you just need to know your dog's triggers and watch out for them. A DA dog attacks just because it sees a dog, the other dog is the trigger. Chances are that if dogs are permitted where your have our DA dog, somebody else will have a dog there too making it very difficult to avoid other dogs.
> 
> I have never avoided going anywhere with my HA dogs but my DA or dog reactive dogs were always my first choice to leave at home.


I've only have seen a couple HA dogs and they were different in the degree of HA, which kinda made me think that just like a dog with DA, is it true aggression or reactivity? The dog with what I say was true HA did not need anything to trigger it. You(as in any person) could not go within 10 ft without the dog trying to attack. The trainers couldn't go near it, it redirected on the owner--it flat out hated people. The owner couldn't take the dog anywhere. I couldn't imagine living with this kind of dog, especially if people ever came over. That dog eventually was given to someone who owned some kind of car lot and the dog became a guard dog, which I can't say I agree with either. Other dogs I have seen that snapped at people did so when their space was taken over or something to that effect. I did not necessarily consider that HA. True aggression of any sort will result with the dog being aggressive no matter what the target.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I've only have seen a couple HA dogs and they were different in the degree of HA, which kinda made me think that just like a dog with DA, is it true aggression or reactivity? The dog with what I say was true HA did not need anything to trigger it. You(as in any person) could not go within 10 ft without the dog trying to attack. The trainers couldn't go near it, it redirected on the owner--it flat out hated people. The owner couldn't take the dog anywhere. I couldn't imagine living with this kind of dog, especially if people ever came over. That dog eventually was given to someone who owned some kind of car lot and the dog became a guard dog, which I can't say I agree with either. Other dogs I have seen that snapped at people did so when their space was taken over or something to that effect. I did not necessarily consider that HA. True aggression of any sort will result with the dog being aggressive no matter what the target.


The dog you speak of sounds like a very unstable dog with a possible few screws loose and not just simply an HA dog. I would be curious to see what would happen if you put person A ten feet from that dog to the left and person B with a dog ten feet to the right of it. My money is on the dog ignoring person A and B and the dog focusing on the other dog. DA runs deep.

You have probably met dozens of HA dogs in your lifetime, you just did not know it because it is seldom recognizable based on outward appearance. You would never know that any typical HA dog were HA in public. They appear calm, cool and collected, not raving lunatics and all that with little more than some basic obedience. Those dogs you see running around loose in parks, dog parks and on trails minding their own business? Rest assured that there are HA dogs among them.

True aggression of any sort will NOT be aggressive no matter the target. DA dogs will be aggressive at the mere sight of a dog. Few HA dogs will aggress at the mere sight of a human. In fact, I have yet to meet one that would although I am sure they are out there. Now I am talking HA and not reactivity.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Define "aggression" vs. "reactivity" I am curious what your trainer said is the difference. I don't think it's black and white. 

Reactivity is the result of arousal. Arousal can lead to unwanted behaviors including aggression. Reactivity feeds itself and becomes self rewarding even if it is not "fun". A dog really does not need to be scared to be reactive, that is false. The dog simply needs to be excited. 

Aggression does not have to be triggered by arousal, so it can be separate from reactivity. It can be very calm and purposeful. A hunting wolf pack is not being reactive, it is being purposefully aggressive. 

You can actually have bites without aggression behind it, if the dog just sees biting as a social and fun behavior and is improperly trained/managed. 

I hear reactivity all the time and I think people use it to cover any sort of unwanted, basically lay-person "aggressive" behavior of any kind, and they also seem to like to think a reactive dog is scared. It often isn't actually a fearful dog that is reacting, it is a dog that finds the reactive behavior to be successful for some reason.

Same idea goes for aggression. Plenty of aggressive dogs aren't scared. They find aggression worthwhile in some way.


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## ElizaM (Sep 21, 2016)

You could make a list of the people that your dog is afraid of.Some dogs are scared of to be around small children under 5, some around women.The list may vary for different dogs.Once you exactly identify the people your dog is scared of you could take steps to minimize his fears until he becomes more comfortable.


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