# Irreparable damage from over dog-socialisation??



## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Yup, I made a mistake. I so desperately did not want a socially challenged GSD that I dog-socialised the heck out of him when he was 2-6 months. Well, now at 8 months I cannot get near another strange dog without his attention flying out the window. He automatically thinks that its playtime.

I have been working on him, and his parents are human and dog neutral so I thought there was hope, but a lady told me to stop wasting my time because the damage I did could never be undone, and that I could never lower his value for other dogs now, no matter how hard I try. 

Do you think this is true?


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

No. Puppy just needs to be worked under threshold around other dogs and the distance decreased slowly over time. Use high value rewards to reward attention on you and if she gets too close and starts losing her little puppy mind, move her away until she can refocus and then either give her a break or keep working her. Just takes some practice and consistency. Mine was also nuts about dogs at that age. Get within twenty feet of another dog and he was a complete fool. He's been able to walk calmly by other dogs without giving them a glance for the past six months and only gets better every day.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Pax8 said:


> No. Puppy just needs to be worked under threshold around other dogs and the distance decreased slowly over time. Use high value rewards to reward attention on you and if she gets too close and starts losing her little puppy mind, move her away until she can refocus and then either give her a break or keep working her. Just takes some practice and consistency. Mine was also nuts about dogs at that age. Get within twenty feet of another dog and he was a complete fool. He's been able to walk calmly by other dogs without giving them a glance for the past six months and only gets better every day.


:thumbup:

Definitely NOT irreparable. You just need to train a new behavior as Pax8 suggested. 

How old is your dog now?


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Definitely NOT irreparable. You just need to train a new behavior as Pax8 suggested.
> 
> How old is your dog now?


He's 9 months now (not 8 as stated above).


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> No. Puppy just needs to be worked under threshold around other dogs and the distance decreased slowly over time. Use high value rewards to reward attention on you and if she gets too close and starts losing her little puppy mind, move her away until she can refocus and then either give her a break or keep working her. Just takes some practice and consistency. Mine was also nuts about dogs at that age. Get within twenty feet of another dog and he was a complete fool. He's been able to walk calmly by other dogs without giving them a glance for the past six months and only gets better every day.


Thanks Pax8, I have been trying something similar to this but only with recall. I will try engaging him with play and obedience stuff using the protocol you describe.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Chai said:


> He's 9 months now (not 8 as stated above).





Chai said:


> Thanks Pax8, I have been trying something similar to this but only with recall. I will try engaging him with play and obedience stuff using the protocol you describe.


Ugh, sorry, I totally did not see the reference to his age!! Careful with using recall in this situation. How are you using it? Whenever training recall you want to make sure that your pup has no option to not come to you and then when they get to you, you should be so much more fun an exciting than what they were previously doing.. in this case your pup is in love with playing and it's way more fun over there, than with you.. 

It's why the redirecting and trainign focus on you is so important. You want to be the life of the party, so that you pup wants to come to you. In this case, you want to redirect and play or do some training with high value reward because he will start seeking you for that fun instead of the other.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> Ugh, sorry, I totally did not see the reference to his age!! Careful with using recall in this situation. How are you using it? Whenever training recall you want to make sure that your pup has no option to not come to you and then when they get to you, you should be so much more fun an exciting than what they were previously doing.. in this case your pup is in love with playing and it's way more fun over there, than with you..
> 
> It's why the redirecting and trainign focus on you is so important. You want to be the life of the party, so that you pup wants to come to you. In this case, you want to redirect and play or do some training with high value reward because he will start seeking you for that fun instead of the other.


I attach a long line to him, go to an open area where we can get some distance from dogs, then I call him with treats or play. If he doesn't listen I reel him in until he start coming to me by himself and I praise. He's not very food driven, and so tugs and toys work much better and he comes back to me with much more velocity. What do you think of this protocol?

He's definitely improved, but we have a long way to go. He loves to tug, and so I've been using that more rather than treats. We haven't tried getting closer to the other dogs yet, as maybe one time per session he gets 'fixed' on a dog in the distance and ignores a recall, and I have to reel him in.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Just wanted to add, that I think the socialisation did have some plus points: his confidence is through the roof, he's bomb-proof, and has never shown any aggression or fear around dogs. BUT I think the cons outweigh the pros in this case, I think I went too far  I just want him to be neutral to dogs, like he is with humans. Happy to get a pat, but doesn't seek it out.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

My male pup was extremely friendly and confident at that age. 

But as he got to be a year he did start getting too confident and started thinking he owned the park and wanted to inspect every dog. When I held him back he got aggressive.

I know this is an opposition reflex reaction. Basically the dog wants to communicate with every dog he sees. Run to them smell each other. Check out the competition and the potential females in the area. 

But that dog communication and business is not what i want to be doing or what other dog owners like so it had to stop.

I would recommend working with the leash pressure techniques on the Tyler Muto channel and the place command. Start to use a prong and work through his techniques.

Noting is irreparable with a dog. They can learn something every day. As soon as you develop new techniques he will respond.

I didn't have the access to the likes of TM channel when I was there with my dog so I developed my own leash techniques to combat the dogs willingness to meet every dog.

I would work on changing speeds while walking and turning, walking really slowly and then jogging.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> My male pup was extremely friendly and confident at that age.
> 
> But as he got to be a year he did start getting too confident and started thinking he owned the park and wanted to inspect every dog. When I held him back he got aggressive.
> 
> ...


Thanks MadLab for your insight. That is something I was worried about, when he is prevented from getting to another dog he gets frustrated sometimes. I was mindful that I could inadvertently be developing leash reactivity in him. I have since got in contact with a balanced trainer and we start this week! I'm not confident enough atm to try out new tools without a trainer showing me how. I will definitely check out that YouTube channel.

That's interesting what you say about changing pace. When we jog, he is so much more in tune with me. Bu I don't do it for too long, as I worry about his joints. Maybe we will do some interval training, mixed with obedience and play, that ought to help with engagement.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Chai said:


> I attach a long line to him, go to an open area where we can get some distance from dogs, then I call him with treats or play. If he doesn't listen I reel him in until he start coming to me by himself and I praise. He's not very food driven, and so tugs and toys work much better and he comes back to me with much more velocity. What do you think of this protocol?
> 
> He's definitely improved, but we have a long way to go. He loves to tug, and so I've been using that more rather than treats. We haven't tried getting closer to the other dogs yet, as maybe one time per session he gets 'fixed' on a dog in the distance and ignores a recall, and I have to reel him in.


That's very good.. IMO. Titan is not food motivated either. We train with a tug or a ball.. mostly tug because it's easier. That is my favorite way to train though.. don't have to worry about treats and when I run out.. lol. 

When he sees a dog in the distance does he try to pull you to them? What do you do? Is this where the recall and long line come in? What about if you have him on a shorter line? What kind of collar are you using? Have you tried a martingale collar? Sorry got crazy with the questions.. lol oops.. I'll leave this here.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> That's very good.. IMO. Titan is not food motivated either. We train with a tug or a ball.. mostly tug because it's easier. That is my favorite way to train though.. don't have to worry about treats and when I run out.. lol.
> 
> When he sees a dog in the distance does he try to pull you to them? What do you do? Is this where the recall and long line come in? What about if you have him on a shorter line? What kind of collar are you using? Have you tried a martingale collar? Sorry got crazy with the questions.. lol oops.. I'll leave this here.


The questions make me think about what I'm doing, which is a good thing  He ignores dogs more than 50m away, closer than that on a long line and he just stops dead and stares (doesn't pull though). Sometimes he'll walk forward to the end of the line, and when that happens I call him and reel him in. He's usually on a 15m line, and when he gets to about 10m his attention turns back to me as I am usually jumping about with a tug toy like a mad woman. Until this time, he's staring the whole time with his body facing the dog, and when I reel him in, he hops backwards so that he can keep staring at the dog. 

On a shorter line, he'll walk to the end of it and pull to the other dog if they are close, if they are further away his attention is on them but he keeps moving with me. If they are close behind us, he plants his butt down and waits for them. After greeting he is usually ok to move on, but if they try to play, I have to drag him off to the side to regain his attention. When he is trying to get his way i.e. sitting/lying down so I can't move him, I tell the other dog owner that we are training, and he is not behaving properly so I cannot allow a greeting. Usually they understand (apart from the fools with off lead dogs who don't call their dogs away, or are unable to call their dogs away). Other people with dogs on or off lead and under control sometimes give me encouragement 

I have a martingale on him at the moment, but he's a strong, stocky boy and it doesn't really help (although it is certainly more helpful than a flat collar). I have had to resort to a front attach harness, which I use with his collar on a double ended lead. So if I need to (when he actively pulls and I think I can't handle him), I use the harness end. Not a fix, I know, but something to get me through until my training appointment. Otherwise he would be too strong for me


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

We have had incredible luck with using "leave it" with hotdogs (he is hard to get food motivated an it was our last resort). Many people swear by "LAT" or "look at that".

Right now Wick ignores 95% of the dogs and the few he doesnt is because they are actively trying to get his attention too. 

I really hope you find something that works for you! I have heard of success stories where adult rescued dogs can be trained to ignore dogs, so although I have no experience with it, it sounds like it is not a hopeless effort


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wick said:


> We have had incredible luck with using "leave it" with hotdogs (he is hard to get food motivated an it was our last resort). Many people swear by "LAT" or "look at that".
> 
> Right now Wick ignores 95% of the dogs and the few he doesnt is because they are actively trying to get his attention too.
> 
> I really hope you find something that works for you! I have heard of success stories where adult rescued dogs can be trained to ignore dogs, so although I have no experience with it, it sounds like it is not a hopeless effort


Thanks wick! I never thought to extend 'leave it' to other dogs, I only ever used it on food and things we came across on our walks i.e. rubbish, another dog's ball etc. Will definitely give it a go. Thanks for the reassurance too, I'll be honest - I was preparing for the worst when I made this post! That lady demoralised me pretty quickly


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Chai said:


> wick said:
> 
> 
> > We have had incredible luck with using "leave it" with hotdogs (he is hard to get food motivated an it was our last resort). Many people swear by "LAT" or "look at that".
> ...


Ugh that must have been scary when she made those comments, especially because when the dogs are pulling, barking, and ignoring its pretty much the most stressful and embarrassing thing ever! (Idk if that's what you pup does but that's what Wick does).

Weirdly enough Wick listens to "Leave it" with dogs and people better than food he tries to scavenge on the ground even though he goes nuts for people and dogs but is not into food...Weird dog, anyways if you look up dog aggression or leash reactive posts on here (not that your dog is aggressive, that's just when people need to train theirs dogs to ignore the most on here) you will find many comments from people who have had success it training their dogs to ignore people and dogs. Hopefully that will give you even more hope


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wick said:


> Ugh that must have been scary when she made those comments, especially because when the dogs are pulling, barking, and ignoring its pretty much the most stressful and embarrassing thing ever! (Idk if that's what you pup does but that's what Wick does).
> 
> Weirdly enough Wick listens to "Leave it" with dogs and people better than food he tries to scavenge on the ground even though he goes nuts for people and dogs but is not into food...Weird dog, anyways if you look up dog aggression or leash reactive posts on here (not that your dog is aggressive, that's just when people need to train theirs dogs to ignore the most on here) you will find many comments from people who have had success it training their dogs to ignore people and dogs. Hopefully that will give you even more hope


Thanks again Wick  he doesn't bark, but he does pull, and I think that's scary enough for most people and dogs. Trawling the forum now for past discussions on LAT etc. now  first time I've heard of it!

Thankfully (maybe?), this comment was made in my city's local GSD Facebook group!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

"leave it" is also a great tool to use and can def be tranferred to anything you want to be left alone... as long as your dog understand the concept, it can transfer pretty easily. 

Sounds like you are on the right track. My advice would be to pick ONE method of training for this.. Too many pieces and it will confuse your dog and frustrate you. Pick one and stick with it for a few weeks. If you don't see progress, then make a different choice, but def remember that it could take a little bit to see improvement. Just be consistent with whatever you choose. 

Oh and the martingale collar, is it on up high? Right behind his ears?


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

wyoung2153 said:


> "leave it" is also a great tool to use and can def be tranferred to anything you want to be left alone... as long as your dog understand the concept, it can transfer pretty easily.
> 
> Sounds like you are on the right track. My advice would be to pick ONE method of training for this.. Too many pieces and it will confuse your dog and frustrate you. Pick one and stick with it for a few weeks. If you don't see progress, then make a different choice, but def remember that it could take a little bit to see improvement. Just be consistent with whatever you choose.
> 
> Oh and the martingale collar, is it on up high? Right behind his ears?


Yeah leave it is nice because they already know what it means, you might have to go back to the basics though to help transfer it over.

Sorry I didn't mean you, I know it's not your post ! Haha


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Yeah Troy is kinda the opposite right now. He doesn't like other dogs unless it is in a controlled environment. He is reactive and whenever we're up close or far away by a dog that isn't in their yard his hackles go up and he barks. So I'm still trying to work on that to get him to pay attention to me and not the dogs but I hope its just a stage..


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Another tidbit if advice and something that I found made a huge difference to my dog - put greetings on cue. I did a lot as far as building focus increasingly closer to other dogs, but those last few feet were killing me. So I started putting greeting on cue. If he held his position in heel to a certain point, say five feet from a dog he could greet, then I'd mark and give him a release to go greet. As he got better, he'd hang closer and closer and eventually even pass the dog by while waiting for that cue. Because if he tried to dash over or break his heel, I took him back ten to twenty feet and he had to down stay until I felt he was ready to try again. But if he held it, even if I wasn't planning on releasing him to greet, he still thinks he's working to earn that release to go greet. The way I set it up, the interaction itself is the potential reward as opposed to a play session or food treat. It worked well because when you get to a certain point, that dog may just be too much more exciting than whatever you have on hand. I also liked doing it this way because it makes a prong or ecollar unecessary.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I use "with me" instead of "leave it". Not sure why the difference, but "with me is while we are out and about. "Leave it" is when we are stationary. Makes zero sense to me as I type it though. LOL. 

I would do as suggested by changing paces, switching directions, getting him involved and engaged in YOU!! Another thing that may work is the second he starts forward to see another dog, change pace or direction. Do not allow that behavior to ever be successful. You can set it up as well with a calm known dog. Walk towards them, when he pulls switch directions. Then switch back. Every time he pulls you turn and jog the other direction. He will learn pretty quick that pulling forward gets him nowhere.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Pax8 said:


> Another tidbit if advice and something that I found made a huge difference to my dog - put greetings on cue. I did a lot as far as building focus increasingly closer to other dogs, but those last few feet were killing me. So I started putting greeting on cue. If he held his position in heel to a certain point, say five feet from a dog he could greet, then I'd mark and give him a release to go greet. As he got better, he'd hang closer and closer and eventually even pass the dog by while waiting for that cue. Because if he tried to dash over or break his heel, I took him back ten to twenty feet and he had to down stay until I felt he was ready to try again. But if he held it, even if I wasn't planning on releasing him to greet, he still thinks he's working to earn that release to go greet. The way I set it up, the interaction itself is the potential reward as opposed to a play session or food treat. It worked well because when you get to a certain point, that dog may just be too much more exciting than whatever you have on hand. I also liked doing it this way because it makes a prong or ecollar unecessary.


I really like this info and want to use it, I am curious was your dog barking and lunging during any of this ? If I let Wick even get to the point of thinking about saying hi he gets over excited and barks because he can't get to the other dog to say hello. At the moment only leave it and walking in another direction works.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

wick said:


> I really like this info and want to use it, I am curious was your dog barking and lunging during any of this ? If I let Wick even get to the point of thinking about saying hi he gets over excited and barks because he can't get to the other dog to say hello. At the moment only leave it and walking in another direction works.


No. If the dog is barking and lunging, it is over threshold. We only moved closer if he was calm and focused on me relatively easily. Of course, we had times that he lost focus and tried to lunge or bark but anytime that happened he was immediately removed to a down stay at a distance as a "time out" to cool off while I evaluated where I had made a mistake. Even after I released him, if he then got over excited I called him away with a recall or a touch. Greeting was also introduced in small doses. A nose sniff and then I recalled. I would get focus, then release him again for a quick greeting. Doing a short greeting and then recalling allowed me to give him a greeting without letting him hang there long enough to get crazy and start to jump, bark, or be crazy at the other dog. As he got better, I allowed him longer and longer greetings until he could handle greeting and disengaging on his own.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's not irreparable. 

I am not a fan of doggy day-cares and dog parks, and letting my dog play with stranger's dogs. This is because I will probably be taking the dog through training and into the ring, and I don't want them to see other dogs and think, play time. I want them to be neutral, more interested in me than other dogs. And most of mine are, even at home. I have one or two who are currently youngsters, and they give me the impression that they are more concerned with what a dog in a neighboring kennel is doing, than what I am doing. It has to do with their age/maturity level, exposure to other dogs, amount of time I have spent working individually with them. 

Right now, your pup is at an age where a lot of the members of our breed start barking and lunging at other dogs, forget what SIT means, and so forth. You have a confident pup that is happy to see other dogs. Good job! Keep up the good work! Work through this stage too. A quick, Leave it, and move on, and then make yourself more interesting too, and as your dog matures, I would be very surprised if this stage doesn't right itself. I wouldn't let the dog play unrestricted with other dogs from now on though, not if you want the dog to be more neutral. Unless you get a second dog. 

Good luck with your puppy, it sounds like he is doing great. Lots of people are tearing their hair out at this point in their pup's development. They call it teenager, or something like that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wick said:


> I really like this info and want to use it, I am curious was your dog barking and lunging during any of this ? If I let Wick even get to the point of thinking about saying hi he gets over excited and barks because he can't get to the other dog to say hello. At the moment only leave it and walking in another direction works.


OK a couple of things.

If you are going on walks and randomly meeting and greeting "I thought my dog was friendly folks???" Please stop! The people that are willing to do that by and large don't know there dogs! I know mine, I don't know there's...just say NO!

If you have found a "Balanced Trainer" they will tell you the same thing. 

But if you persistent then you should know this:
Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt 


At the heart of your current problem is your timing. It's off, if you try and correct "after" a dog has gone "over threshold??" It's game over, turn around and walk away, you've lost! You have to give a correction (and for me that is a very gentle tug with a slip lead leash) "before" the dog reacts..."don't even think about it dog!" as it were!

I use "NO" not "Leave it" for my dogs "Leave It" means "not now, maybe later??" "NO" means not now not ever! There is a difference.

Most likely you will be taught how to properly use a prong collar to walk/control your dog?? That just seems to be the way it is??

Apparently I am an anomaly?? Flat Collar and Leash is how I started but now a days I use a Slip Lead leash and I have wrangled strays and walked them with a Slip Lead, I fashioned from a Jump Rope. That dog walked like he had done it for years! Door dasher found him in our front yard. 

It's not about the "tool" you use it's about your "demeanor" and that looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

I'm a "Pet Person" not a Pro but I have the dog walking/control thing down solid! I do rescue work and thus far, I have not had a dog that "I" cannot walk comfortably on a loose leash. Kinda my thing as it were! 


The basics of loose leash walking can be found here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

The first video clip, once that concept is down...you no longer need to do the leading around objects thing! I take the leash from the owner and stop! The dog "instantly knows" uh oh something has changed???

Just my two cents! Good luck and Welcome Aboard!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

This is a great thread. Titan doesn't lunge and we have a good routine and he's good at it, but I always love to perfect things and really make them solid. These have been great ideas I will implement when I get home. My husband will jsut manage for now


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would not work with recall on a long line or any way with other dogs around first. I would work on focus. Teach the dog watch me and leave it. Once that is solid, move on to the long line. I used raw venison as a high value treat in training. Go sit at a park and as dogs go past you keep your dog in a sit with focus on you. Start out with one dog a day for a few days then two dogs then three dogs a day and so on.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> "leave it" is also a great tool to use and can def be tranferred to anything you want to be left alone... as long as your dog understand the concept, it can transfer pretty easily.
> 
> Sounds like you are on the right track. My advice would be to pick ONE method of training for this.. Too many pieces and it will confuse your dog and frustrate you. Pick one and stick with it for a few weeks. If you don't see progress, then make a different choice, but def remember that it could take a little bit to see improvement. Just be consistent with whatever you choose.
> 
> Oh and the martingale collar, is it on up high? Right behind his ears?


Thanks  I tired 'leave it' at the park today when we were well before his threshold distance around other dogs. He was looking at them, I gave the command, and he looked at me startled like 'what are you using that one for??' but it worked! Obviously will have to work on it a lot more, but it's promising.

The martingale collar is just at normal neck height, I guess. Like midway to his body. Is it meant to be up behind his ears?


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Bella67 said:


> Yeah Troy is kinda the opposite right now. He doesn't like other dogs unless it is in a controlled environment. He is reactive and whenever we're up close or far away by a dog that isn't in their yard his hackles go up and he barks. So I'm still trying to work on that to get him to pay attention to me and not the dogs but I hope its just a stage..


Good luck with your training. Are you using the 'leave it' method too so something different? Do you mind sharing how your dog became reactive? I'm wondering if it's from leash tension when he tried to get to other dogs in the past.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> Another tidbit if advice and something that I found made a huge difference to my dog - put greetings on cue.


This is a good idea! I just might formulate my own greeting plan for him. Thanks!



gsdsar said:


> I use "with me" instead of "leave it". Not sure why the difference, but "with me is while we are out and about. "Leave it" is when we are stationary.


It makes sense  I currently use 'let's go' as a cue for him to return next to me, but without me expecting a focused heel. Maybe I could incorporate the 'ignore that dog' with this command?



selzer said:


> It's not irreparable.
> 
> I am not a fan of doggy day-cares and dog parks, and letting my dog play with stranger's dogs.


Thanks for all of that info! Yes, I do not frequent dog parks or other doggy play areas either. When we see these dogs, it's just along our walks in parks. I never let him play with strange dogs! I also want him to be neutral to other dogs and focused on me, it's why I love the breed and why I waited for the right litter in the right kennel to become available.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> OK a couple of things.
> 
> If you are going on walks and randomly meeting and greeting "I thought my dog was friendly folks???" Please stop! The people that are willing to do that by and large don't know there dogs! I know mine, I don't know there's...just say NO!


Hi, thanks for taking the time to type out all this info  I don't set to go out and 'randomly meet and greet', but I can't really help not passing dogs in my area or in the parks we frequent. Usually I try to keep to the quiet areas, but this is not always possible, and sometimes I have to pass a dog and owner along a path. I think I'd be ok with a few 3 second greets, but then to move along...

I just had my first training session with a new trainer and he recommended, and introduced me, to a check chain. I couldn't see if it was the same kind of collar used on the dog in that video? He's teaching me the same kind of principles though, firm corrections with clear expectations. 



wyoung2153 said:


> This is a great thread. Titan doesn't lunge and we have a good routine and he's good at it, but I always love to perfect things and really make them solid. These have been great ideas I will implement when I get home. My husband will jsut manage for now


It's great that you can always learn something  this forum is good for that!



llombardo said:


> I would not work with recall on a long line or any way with other dogs around first. I would work on focus. Teach the dog watch me and leave it. Once that is solid, move on to the long line. I used raw venison as a high value treat in training. Go sit at a park and as dogs go past you keep your dog in a sit with focus on you. Start out with one dog a day for a few days then two dogs then three dogs a day and so on.


This is a good idea. I also like the idea of sitting somewhere and letting dogs pass while his attention on me. It'll be worth the raw liver-covered hands.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Who is this "lady"? Funny how some random know-it-all can shred our confidence in a second. It sounds like you have a good dog but one at the "air-head" stage of adolescence. 
Playing with other dogs should be earned by good behavior and on your terms only when he is being good and showing impulse control. Once in a while break up the play sessions with fun obedience so it is not just a free for all.
Enjoy your youngster. With work and consistency he'll be OK. Also keep him enrolled in one or more classes for another year or so at least.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would join a class where there are other dogs under control.
Have the dog get his rewards by focusing on you , being obedient , getting all your attention with lots of positive guidance and praise , and at the end of the day you go home , no - yes NO other dog interaction or play time.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Thanks for starting this thread, Chai! I've been having the same issues you're having and Mad Lab had. We worked through it while on lead, and he's fine 99% of the time unless he's passing really closely by another puppy. 

My issue is that we do most of our walks off lead on a hiking trail near our house. We'll meet anywhere between 0 - 8 dogs on a walk. And he was completely fine about ignoring the other dogs until a couple of weeks ago (he just turned 1 year). Now suddenly, he reacts to about 1 in every 10 dogs - he's done it a few times now. The most recent (2 nights ago) he even went after another dog and snarked at it - just noise, but still scary to the other owner. And he completely ignored me and tried to avoid me catching him. His body language isn't aggressive/dominant so I'm pretty sure (but not 100% sure) that HE thinks he's playing, but the other dog was pretty overwhelmed.

So.... Obviously I've let him off lead way too soon! And now we've taken a couple steps back in our training. So back on lead he goes and I will go back to working on focus.

Anyway, thanks for the thread. It comes at a perfect time for me! Glad to hear that some other people are having the same issues. And it also has reaffirmed that I can fix this and gives me a few new ideas to try. 

ETA - when I said he "reacts" to other dogs, I don't mean that in a reactive kind of way (except for that last dog) but more that he just doesn't ignore it. He will go up to it, sniff, or size it up, similar to what Mad Lab said his dog was doing. I know, I was expecting too much too soon.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chai said:


> Hi, thanks for taking the time to type out all this info  I don't set to go out and 'randomly meet and greet', but I can't really help not passing dogs in my area or in the parks we frequent. Usually I try to keep to the quiet areas, but this is not always possible, and sometimes I have to pass a dog and owner along a path. I think I'd be ok with a few 3 second greets, but then to move along...


OK that's real world no problem! Some folks think it's there goal on a walk to meet and greet "every" dog they encounter! That is a recipe for disaster! 





Chai said:


> I just had my first training session with a new trainer and he recommended, and introduced me, to a check chain. I couldn't see if it was the same kind of collar used on the dog in that video? He's teaching me the same kind of principles though, firm corrections with clear expectations.


OH!! Finally someone to work with!!! 

Nope the English guy is using a Flat Collar and leash! Watch and listen to the clip again, watch the Jeff Gellman clip. There are no "firm" corrections?? 

But "firm" is a grey area, your trainer says "firm correction," I would say "soft!" You guide the dog. What he has on his neck...makes no difference! The "Secret" is you "read your dog" you "correct" before he reacts to stimulus..."move along dog nothing see here."

Walking a dog is about "Demeanor" not the tool used! See below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo


Going back to the video clip with the English guy...if you work your dog, first in that manner...you watch your dog like a hawk, you understand the way he moves and you can anticipate behaviors!

Once you get that down with your first dog...you will no longer need to do any of that in the future with another dog! I'd be willing to state that did the clip as a service to others. 

I'm pretty sure he could have easily taken that dog at the first meeting and just started walking and the dog would have exhibited "no" ill behavior! I can do that and I'm sure he has worked with way more dogs then me!!


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Who is this "lady"?


Well, that's the internet for you! Haha. She's just a member of the same FB group as I am, we have a little GSD page for our city. I posted on there asking for some tips, and that's when the comment was made :/ Will definitely ensure that future interactions from now on are earned! We are currently enrolled in our city's GSD club where we do obedience, it is a great place to practice focus on me with other dogs around. 



carmspack said:


> I would join a class where there are other dogs under control.
> Have the dog get his rewards by focusing on you , being obedient , getting all your attention with lots of positive guidance and praise , and at the end of the day you go home , no - yes NO other dog interaction or play time.


Thanks carmspack, we are currently with our local GSD club. It's a huge temptation for him to play there since he has known most of the dogs there since he was a puppy. We spend a lot of time removing ourselves from the class to create some distance when he becomes disengaged with me. Then when his head is on right, we go back in. I think I will stop the little 'meet and greet' after class we have, I think even that small of an interaction may be too much at this point. 



McWeagle said:


> Thanks for starting this thread, Chai! I've been having the same issues you're having and Mad Lab had. We worked through it while on lead, and he's fine 99% of the time unless he's passing really closely by another puppy.


Hi McWeagle, good to know you've seen some progress! Very encouraging. It seems like you know what you have to do to fix his reactivity, I must make sure to keep in touch with your progress  



Chip18 said:


> Nope the English guy is using a Flat Collar and leash! Watch and listen to the clip again, watch the Jeff Gellman clip. There are no "firm" corrections??


By firm correction I meant collar pops, not soft ones, but not hard ones either. My dog didn't show discomfort during the session, but he did seem surprised, and then confused. But after about 3 corrections, we didn't even have to do it again...so I think it may be working. I was also happy to see that he didn't shut down, he was still his happy, boisterous self 

He is such a strong dog, I just don't know how I can correct him 'softly' and have the same effect that the check chain had? It seemed to snap him out of his distracted state, and then we could continue with more attention on me. I will try to be more anticipatory of his actions though. In the video you just posted, I noticed that dog was wearing a prong collar and was quite extreme in its behaviour? Do you think our cases can be comparable?


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Chai said:


> Good luck with your training. Are you using the 'leave it' method too so something different? Do you mind sharing how your dog became reactive? I'm wondering if it's from leash tension when he tried to get to other dogs in the past.


I'm working on "leave it" but when he starts barking I get him into OB mood which is starting to work well for me. 
For the reason why he is reactive honestly, I have no clue. His siblings aren't like this so this still remains a mystery for me.  He ignores dog's through the fence fine its just when he's face-face or not through a fence that he is reactive about.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chai said:


> By firm correction I meant collar pops, not soft ones, but not hard ones either. My dog didn't show discomfort during the session, but he did seem surprised, and then confused. But after about 3 corrections, we didn't even have to do it again...so I think it may be working. I was also happy to see that he didn't shut down, he was still his happy, boisterous self
> 
> He is such a strong dog, I just don't know how I can correct him 'softly' and have the same effect that the check chain had? It seemed to snap him out of his distracted state, and then we could continue with more attention on me. I will try to be more anticipatory of his actions though. In the video you just posted, I noticed that dog was wearing a prong collar and was quite extreme in its behaviour? Do you think our cases can be comparable?


OK forget "soft vs firm" internet thing! Somethings you have to "see" first hand! 

It sounds like your in good hands, if you get it wrong your dog can "shut down" does not sound like that is happening, so your doing fine!

We are talking about two different video's.  I linked two but the first one you have to view directly on youtube now. (I noticed that awhile ago) you can right clip to do it but I'll post the link here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FqtL6o7kDE

Principle is still the same "soft" just means "don't" take your dogs head off! 


The other clip... that trainer is working with a leash reactive dog. I have found that if you get the walk down correctly, leash reactivity is not a problem! Your dog never gets a chance to practice being a "tool" in the first place!

Over all it sounds like your doing just fine!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Recall is non negotiable.
Dog on long line in distracting environment. Call the dog, wait one split second for him to come, when he doesnt pop the long line sharply and repeat as necessary until the dog turns and takes a step towards you. Mark and praise which should bring him in the rest of the way.
After several sessions you do not mark or praise until he is all the way to you.

When the dog does not comply with a recall command dont "reel him in" this inhibits clarity and creates opposition reflex. Pop the line sharply until he makes the choice to turn and move towards you. After several reps he should turn towards you in order to avoid the pops.

I overlay the E Collar on the long line then fade the line completely in a couple of sessions.

Thats the quickest fool proof method I would use.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Recall is non negotiable.
> Dog on long line in distracting environment. Call the dog, wait one split second for him to come, when he doesnt pop the long line sharply and repeat as necessary until the dog turns and takes a step towards you. Mark and praise which should bring him in the rest of the way.
> After several sessions you do not mark or praise until he is all the way to you.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks, that makes sense. Will stop reeling and start popping, I get that he should do it under his own volition. I haven't used an ecollar before, so I'd need to get a trainer to show me first if I end up using one.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree recall is not negotiable. 

I do it a little different. I teach the COME command in class on lead, and never use it unless I can immediately enforce it. So, I do not have a dog, even in a fenced yard, off lead and call COME! until they are fully trained. Instead, I call their name, "Moofie!!!" If that brings them, great, yay! praise, good boy. If it does not, I reach in my pocket as if I have a treat, whatever, but coming to me is always praised. 

But I use the COME command on lead, and if they do not come immediately, I do not "pop" the dog, I give a slight tug, and if that does not bring the dog to me -- almost always does, then I walk to where the dog is, reeling in the line as I go, so they do not get to play a chase game, and then walk the dog to where I was originally, and have him sit and praise the sit.

The dog does not get the opportunity to ignore the COME command and do something more exciting or fun. When the dog is farther along in training and has an excellent chance of doing the right thing, I will start using the command off lead, and with distractions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Recall is non negotiable.
> Dog on long line in distracting environment. Call the dog, wait one split second for him to come, when he doesnt pop the long line sharply and repeat as necessary until the dog turns and takes a step towards you. Mark and praise which should bring him in the rest of the way.
> After several sessions you do not mark or praise until he is all the way to you.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for this!

I have used a long line in the past a very long time ago. I did not really use it as a "training tool." I neither popped or reeled?? But now I know! 

What is the purpose of "layering" with the E collar?? Is it to "proof" the dog??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I agree recall is not negotiable.
> 
> I do it a little different. I teach the COME command in class on lead, and never use it unless I can immediately enforce it. So, I do not have a dog, even in a fenced yard, off lead and call COME! until they are fully trained. Instead, I call their name, "Moofie!!!" If that brings them, great, yay! praise, good boy. If it does not, I reach in my pocket as if I have a treat, whatever, but coming to me is always praised.
> 
> ...


Been awhile but I think I did something similar??

I know "Stay" and "Down" I also taught might have taught those first?? If they won't come...they would "Stay" and "Down" ment the party is over!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

E collar is to remove reliance on the long line. E collar also gives the command more meaning and the dog can wear it anywhere. Teqching commands with appropriate pressure makes for quicker learning and stronger overall reliability. It creates 99% reliability.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> E collar is to remove reliance on the long line. E collar also gives the command more meaning and the dog can wear it anywhere. Teqching commands with appropriate pressure makes for quicker learning and stronger overall reliability. It creates 99% reliability.


It creates 99% reliability, and I get 99.82% reliability without the e-collar -- these statistics mean nothing. Neither statistic is tested/developed by any proven method. Good training is good training, and is reliable regardless of the method. I get a reliable come through distractions without an e-collar. 

For some dogs, one might argue a more reliable recall having backed their training with an e-collar and for other dogs, I believe the more reliable training would not include it.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

selzer said:


> It creates 99% reliability, and I get 99.82% reliability without the e-collar -- these statistics mean nothing. Neither statistic is tested/developed by any proven method. Good training is good training, and is reliable regardless of the method. I get a reliable come through distractions without an e-collar.
> 
> For some dogs, one might argue a more reliable recall having backed their training with an e-collar and for other dogs, I believe the more reliable training would not include it.


 
Ok...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ok...


Aww don' be like that! 

As I see it E collar vs free training equal to faith vs proof!

One example... E collar trained Dominate male dogs "avert there gaze" from other dogs. My free trained dog did avert his gaze! He was "proofed" when unbeknownst to me, a little dog slipped by me and got in his face!!!"Bark bark bark!!" Gunther (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) who I had done a lot of work with, did not shred the little miscreant! He stood his ground and stared and waited for "Daddy" to deal with it! 

But it's not an E collar thread! No one has said "NO" it's evil!! I just saw "over layering" and thought I would ask why! Nothing implied.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> I agree recall is not negotiable.
> 
> I do it a little different. I teach the COME command in class on lead, and never use it unless I can immediately enforce it. So, I do not have a dog, even in a fenced yard, off lead and call COME! until they are fully trained. Instead, I call their name, "Moofie!!!" If that brings them, great, yay! praise, good boy. If it does not, I reach in my pocket as if I have a treat, whatever, but coming to me is always praised.


I do basically the same thing, but I'll use the word, "Here!" when I want the dog to come back towards me. That doesn't mean they have to come to me and wait for the next command. That means they need to come towards me. If I turn and walk away, they'll come running. 

I reinforced "Here" with a treat. So when the dog came to me he got a treat and praise and then I ignored. That told the dog that he didn't need to wait for an additional command. 

What that does for me, is when I'm working with a horse and I can't see the dog I can say "Here" and they'll come back into my line of vision. Sometimes stand outside the arena, sometimes lay in the shade, sometimes continue hunting the field for mice. But I can see them. 

"Come" means I want you to me right now and you are to wait for the next command. "Come" warrants immediate reaction and a sit stay either in front of me or at the heel position. 

What "come" does for me is to gain control of my dog due to an emergency situation, such as stray dog, or someone getting a little too gritty with the other. Because I don't use it often - I always treat well when training. It's never ignored.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Aww don' be like that!
> 
> As I see it E collar vs free training equal to faith vs proof!
> 
> ...


I have a bitch, Ninja, who will fight at the drop of a hat. She is not afraid to scrap with anyone. 

I took her to the park after getting stitches out of her ear. And, I kept her on lead because I saw another car there. We went off into the woods. When I came out at the other side of a soccer field, she was walking by my side, and I saw a small dog in the middle of the field. Its owner was up under the pavillion -- nope, no long line. I said LEAVE IT and Heel. 

Ninja walked at my side while this dog barked and lunged in circles around us all the way to my car. 50 yards easy, and while I unlocked my car. The dog's owner was useless. 

Ninja did not attack that dog and had every provocation. I have never used a prong or an e-collar on her. Only my voice, and she listened. 

I lost Babs when she was a puppy in a busy parking lot. I have a problem with my wrists, for which I have had an operation, but I drop things. Dog's leashes are one of them. She was a frightened puppy, but obeyed my recall, because coming to Sue is always a good thing. Come never has negative consequences. 

There are plenty of proofs that it works, just like there are plenty of people who use correction collars who can't count on a recall at all. Of course there are plenty of people who cannot train their dogs with their voices or with correction collars. Good training is good training, whatever the gadgets or lack of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lilie said:


> I do basically the same thing, but I'll use the word, "Here!" when I want the dog to come back towards me. That doesn't mean they have to come to me and wait for the next command. That means they need to come towards me. If I turn and walk away, they'll come running.
> 
> I reinforced "Here" with a treat. So when the dog came to me he got a treat and praise and then I ignored. That told the dog that he didn't need to wait for an additional command.
> 
> ...


Exactly. And this is the huge mistake in perception that many people have. They think that unless you are dealing out corrections left and right, you are being permissive. People who train properly with treats or without them, cannot be permissive. If we give a command, it must be followed through from the get go, and the dog learns that commands cannot be ignored.

I think that some dogs will measure his desire to continue with what he is doing against a possible punishment, and sometimes they will go the way people do not want them to. If training from the beginning always follows through with commands, I think it is far less likely for dogs to ever blow off commands.


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## River-Otter (Jun 1, 2015)

Chai said:


> Yup, I made a mistake. I so desperately did not want a socially challenged GSD that I dog-socialised the heck out of him when he was 2-6 months. Well, now at 8 months I cannot get near another strange dog without his attention flying out the window. He automatically thinks that its playtime.
> 
> I have been working on him, and his parents are human and dog neutral so I thought there was hope, but a lady told me to stop wasting my time because the damage I did could never be undone, and that I could never lower his value for other dogs now, no matter how hard I try.
> 
> Do you think this is true?


I did not read all the responses, but I just need to say that you did not make a mistake. There is no way to over-socialize an animal with it's own species unless you are also totally neglecting it - which you aren't! 

There is no damage to be undone, none.
All that socialization helped him to speak his native language - dog - more fluently, which will help him and you all his adult life.

His attention flies out the window and he thinks it's playtime because he is just 9 months old. _Of course_ he wants to play with other dogs. _Of course_ he has the attention span of a gnat on speed. _Of course_ he loses all focus - he's a budding adolescent!

He is roughly the human equivalent of 13. Now, I don't know about you, but when I was 13, my parents totally lost all my attention and focus the moment my friends were around, and all I wanted to do was run off with them. LOL, thankfully, they didn'tassume the "damage" was irreversible and give up on me.

Just keep working with him, slowly, patiently and don't make a huge issue of it. He should get his brain back in 2 - 3 months and when he is a mature male you will be happy he is dog-savvy. Adolescence you just have to live through.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I took her to the park after getting stitches out of her ear. And, I kept her on lead because I saw another car there. We went off into the woods. When I came out at the other side of a soccer field, she was walking by my side, and I saw a small dog in the middle of the field. Its owner was up under the pavillion -- nope, no long line. I said LEAVE IT and Heel.


 I take your point here! "Leave it" and "NO" are variables. By and large either can work. 


selzer said:


> Ninja walked at my side while this dog barked and lunged in circles around us all the way to my car. 50 yards easy, and while I unlocked my car. The dog's owner was useless.


 By and large nothing to add here other than to say...that is impressive!  



selzer said:


> Ninja did not attack that dog and had every provocation. I have never used a prong or an e-collar on her. Only my voice, and she listened.


Yep lesson I learned form working with Boxers myself. There is a difference between "Mo" and "NO!" 



selzer said:


> I lost Babs when she was a puppy in a busy parking lot. I have a problem with my wrists, for which I have had an operation, but I drop things. Dog's leashes are one of them. She was a frightened puppy, but obeyed my recall, because coming to Sue is always a good thing. Come never has negative consequences.


I'm sorry to hear you have problems with your wrist! Been forever since I have worked with a puppy but I believe "Stay" and "Down" were the first commands I taught my puppies?? If they don't come back at least they won't move was my thinking. 



selzer said:


> Good training is good training, whatever the gadgets or lack of them.


Nothing to add here!


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Lilie said:


> I do basically the same thing, but I'll use the word, "Here!" when I want the dog to come back towards me.


Very insightful conversation, everyone, thanks 

I also like the idea of differentiating between "get to me right now and wait for my next instruction" and "get nearer to me". I may teach him the difference between "come" and "here".


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lilie said:


> I do basically the same thing, but I'll use the word, "Here!" when I want the dog to come back towards me. That doesn't mean they have to come to me and wait for the next command. That means they need to come towards me. If I turn and walk away, they'll come running.
> 
> I reinforced "Here" with a treat. So when the dog came to me he got a treat and praise and then I ignored. That told the dog that he didn't need to wait for an additional command.
> 
> ...


Whoa???? A difference between "Come and Here??"

I like that something I never thought about or was aware of??? I'm pretty sure I mostly likely used "Come Here" as a command?? I get the distinction!

Thanks!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Come and here are used a lot everywhere. I use come, front, and we have an emergency word. Come means come to the area I'm in. Front means come directly to me and sit in front of me. The emergency word is practiced frequently but never used unless it's an emergency. That word is meant to stop them in their tracks and get to me.


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## Nepenthexx (Apr 27, 2015)

Chai, have you seen any improvements since you started this thread? What method(s) have you been using? 

My 7 month old girl is the same way. I also thought (think?) that I may have over-socialized her because I didn't either want a fearful/aggressive dog against other dogs =S She really wants to greet and pulls with tail wagging when passing other dogs or when doing nothing and just standing beside other owners with dogs (or walking with them). Sometimes I dont think this is a huge problem, but other times I am afraid this wont go away with age or that I wont be able to train it away.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Come and here are used a lot everywhere. I use come, front, and we have an emergency word. Come means come to the area I'm in. Front means come directly to me and sit in front of me. The emergency word is practiced frequently but never used unless it's an emergency. That word is meant to stop them in their tracks and get to me.


Hmm now it gets worst??

Front and emergency word?? Advanced obeisance training or just your thing??


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm now it gets worst??
> 
> Front and emergency word?? Advanced obeisance training or just your thing??


Since recall is a life saving command one of the trainers had us do this(emergency word). It really makes sense to me, so I went with it. There are just some words in the English vocabulary that are so over used that sometimes they just start to mean nothing. No and come are two of the worse over used words IMO. Front is my favorite command in general and then I add a finish to it, so the dogs ended up sitting next to me.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Since recall is a life saving command one of the trainers had us do this(emergency word). It really makes sense to me, so I went with it. There are just some words in the English vocabulary that are so over used that sometimes they just start to mean nothing. No and come are two of the worse over used words IMO. Front is my favorite command in general and then I add a finish to it, so the dogs ended up sitting next to me.


Oh I got a break!! 

As I taught it 'NO" means "Stop Doing Whatever Your doing and Don't do it again!"

"Leave it means" "Not now maybe later??" "NO" has been Boxer tested and Boxer approved...Bunny Rabbits in the wild off leash.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I switched to FRONT when I was training obedience dogs. Because that definitely means come to the front of me, to my belt buckle and and sit. Yes, then we add a finish, but not until we the person is ready (because you have to wait for the judge to say, "Finish your dog." 

I had Come down great for this, only I had trained it with my hands together in front of me, and the dog would trot right up to my hands and sit her butt. Perfect. Two weeks before the trial, I learned that my hands had to be at my sides. And that was major confusing to the dog, she wanted to go to my hand -- ick!!! 

So I switched to FRONT and learned to put a huge smile on my face. In practice you can have a cheese cube in your mouth and when the dog sits in front, looks up to your face you can spit it for her. Works for some people, I guess. 

Well, anyway, it worked and we got our title. And that is how I used FRONT instead of COME or HERE.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww OK so ...Advanced Obedience! Well beyond the come when I call and don't act a fool the rest of the time stage! 

GSD's are quick learners...Boxers not so much! I see a challeneg in my future!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I kind of use COME and HERE the same way. But when I discuss a puppy problem with someone, where the pup is not coming when they call. I go through my whole spiel about not using the command unless you are connected and can and will enforce it immediately. And then, if I remember, I often tell them they might want to try a different command, such as HERE, especially if they have ever used COME and then bawled the dog out or punished him. 

Going with the different word, going back to the beginning with the training, never repeating the command, always following through, and keeping it very positive, can have a problem dog on the right track pretty quickly.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I kind of use COME and HERE the same way. But when I discuss a puppy problem with someone, where the pup is not coming when they call. I go through my whole spiel about not using the command unless you are connected and can and will enforce it immediately. And then, if I remember, I often tell them they might want to try a different command, such as HERE, especially if they have ever used COME and then bawled the dog out or punished him.
> 
> Going with the different word, going back to the beginning with the training, never repeating the command, always following through, and keeping it very positive, can have a problem dog on the right track pretty quickly.


This is very interesting, because I've stopped using 'come' unless we are doing obedience and I want him to present in front of me. I've gone back as if he was 8 weeks and using 'here' for recall, always when I can enforce. I don't know if it's my imagination, but he's already so much more responsive. I'm sure it's the culmination of new techniques that I've picked up and started using from this thread


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Nepenthexx said:


> Chai, have you seen any improvements since you started this thread? What method(s) have you been using?


Definitely  I've incorporated a few things, some whole and some tweaked. 

Recall: gone earlier or later in the morning to our usual place when it is quieter, or a different place that is more secluded. Practicing recall on 15m long line with almost no distractions, rewarded all compliance. He has since only ignored once, due to a couple of dogs running off the path and playing about 50m away very loudly. I gave him a leash pop, jumped around and he complied very happily. Planning to stay with this low level of distraction until he is 100% for a couple weeks before moving to a slightly more distracting environment (e.g. closer to walking path). 

Excitement with dogs: using check chain now, now front attach harness or martingale. Incorporating games, random changes in pace and direction on our afternoon walks. His attention on me has increased dramatically, especially at a jogging pace. We are now able to pass dogs 20m away on a walk, with a voice command of 'leave it' with a curious glance from him but then attention is back on me as I start to jump around with a tug toy. If he plants his feet/butt, pulls or barks I give a correction with the check chain and walk in opposite direction to create distance. Then it's refocus and calm down before we continue, also, he doesn't get to meet that dog. 

I have stopped ALL greetings if he is displaying unwanted behaviour. If he behaves, then it's a 3-5 second greeting and we move on, PLUS he gets praise/play/treat if he disengages well. Sometimes we stop with distance from a walk path, and we practice focus on me as a dog goes by. This was trial and error as I started too close, so I found his threshold and we are working at this level  I use raw meat/liver as this is the absolute highest value treat for him. Messy and gross, but worth it. 

Still to try: creating a cue for greetings as selzer suggested, I really like his idea  

Overall, I've had to actively think about everything I am doing with him. i was being inconsistent, and in turn, unclear in what I expected of him. No repeated commands, no bad behaviour is ignored but actively corrected, and all good behaviour at least gets verbal praise. I've actually written out daily plans on what we are going to work on *nerd* I've also had to become more 'interesting' in everything I do with him. I enjoy nature and being outdoors, and I guess I would sometimes zone out. Now, it's 99% attention on him. It's exhausting, but a good investment I think! *I have definitely noticed an improvement.* Boy, do we have a long way to go, but I am so much more confident now that EVENTUALLY I will have a dog neutral boy to enjoy more freedom with (off leash fun! hiking, beaches, fetch, hide and seek...so many possibilities). 

The advice and reassurance in this thread gave me my mojo back, the comment by that lady really knocked it out of me! I have a lot more motivation now, I think he senses it too. 



River-Otter said:


> I did not read all the responses, but I just need to say that you did not make a mistake. There is no way to over-socialize an animal with it's own species unless you are also totally neglecting it - which you aren't!


Thanks River  I am very happy that I have such a confident pup, I learn more about him everyday and it is great to watch him grow into himself and discover the world. Recently we got charged....by a jack russell! Burst out of the patch of native trees that separates he park from the road (which we were walking on as there are usually no dogs on it). Tchai pranced out of he way, gave it a look like "what the **** is wrong with this thing" and immediately went into a sit stay when I asked. We waited calmly while the owner ran over (through the bushes) so to reduce the risk of the little guy running onto the road, and then kept walking without interacting with neither dog or owner (I was very annoyed). Also, we encountered a little pit/staffy puppy who was very shy. Tchai walked next to me on a nice, loose lead and I allowed a greet. His usual boisterous energy dissipated almost instantly, he got into a down by himself and put his head down by the puppy until it sniffed him  During this time we have also had a few bad behaviours like over excitement, pulling or barking. But I try to focus on the positives 

Just today, we passed a house undergoing construction. There was a bulldozer that started up as we rounded a corner causing quite a ruckus, he started a bit out of surprise, a few hairs rose on his hackles, but I kept walking and he ended up trotting past quite happily. Also, a toddler reached her hand out of a pram and squealed as we were passing, and before I could do anything, the hand got a sniff and nose bump but nothing else. I have been a very proud mum


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Chai said:


> I've gone back as if he was 8 weeks and using 'here' for recall, always when I can enforce. I don't know if it's my imagination, but he's already so much more responsive. I'm sure it's the culmination of new techniques that I've picked up and started using from this thread


My theory is that when I use 'Come' I'm serious. I mean business. Much like when my Mom used my full name when calling me. Because it was used rarely, I knew poop was hitting the fan. Like the day report cards were mailed in. I didn't want to come to her, but I knew if I didn't I would have experienced my last birthday. 

When I use 'Here!' I'm using it much like someone saying "hey! Come see!" I'll want to look to see what's going on. I won't have to go all the way to the person to see. I'll be able to tell when I am in their sight line. If I want to, I can go to them, but it wouldn't be necessary. 

My Lacy ALWAYS comes to me directly when I say "Here!". He is totally food driven. He wants what is in it for him. My GSD will ALWAYS come back into my sight line, or he'll drift back towards me, but he'll take his time. He might find a shady spot and take a nap. But if I move away from him he'll jump up to follow.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

.: UPDATE POST :.

Hey everybody! Just after Tchai's 2nd birthday I thought I would just post a quick update if any body was following this post, and also as a thank you for everyone who contributed.

I haven't been on here very much recently, but I have been hard at work. MY IPO trainer likes to tell us to "Talk less and train more", which I am taking to heart  I am in such a great place at the moment with Tchai, he is such a great dog and we have both learned so much from each other. 

We train every day, and we are loving it. Under a more experienced handler or professional trainer, I believe our issues could have been eliminated within a few days of first presenting themselves. Alas, I am but a rookie and progress is far slower. Tchai's reactivity has drastically reduced, we can engage each other around other dogs and even do off leash stuff. We are also excelling at tracking (man-scenting/trailing style) and have passed many trials! Passing by strange dogs calmly on leash in close proximity i.e. sharing a sidewalk, is still a challenge. At training we can do it with no problem, but out in the real world I am still being inconsistent and mistiming my commands/corrections. When we see other dogs running or playing, Tchai still very much wants to go over and join in, I can feel his excitement and sometimes his frustration, even though he has stopped the outward symptoms of pulling or barking. I don't know if I can ever get him to that stage where he just goes "Meh, who cares?". 

Around other dogs Tchai is still a d***head as my general obedience trainer likes to call him. Not aggressive at all, but likes to push buttons and make a general nuisance of himself. For this reason I only let him play with a handful of known dogs that can either a) command respect (mostly assertive females) or b) play as robustly as he likes to. Pleasingly, Tchai is respectful and gentle around very old and very young dogs. An aggressive dog and resource hoarder who both attend general obedience and are managed expertly have also taught him to respect space a little better. 

We got assessed by an IPO trainer who accepted us into the club as a non-competitive member. He loves training us and says that Tchai has a spunk that he really likes, although illustrated to me from early on why Tchai would never be competition material in IPO. We do a number of exercises that focus on increasing engagement, drive and developing character, although I think I am getting a lot more out of the training than Tchai is! I also go to many of the theory classes, trials, workshops and general training sessions solo to learn more about the sport and sport dogs. I have decided that I would like to get a working line in the future to pursue it properly as I am really enjoying it 

Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know that we are plodding along and loving life  I wanted to thank everybody who has some sort of input, everything was taken on board in some way and gave me lots to think about. Of course, we have a long way to go, but I am very pleased with how far we've come.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Congratulations!....by virtue of your training and commitment to learning, in a short time you will be further advanced than most giving advice on these forums!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I love success stories.Thanks for the update!I really hope it inspires some folks to get out there and work through the issues they're having.This board is great for gathering moral support and different perspectives on a problem,but ya gotta get out there and put in the work.Excellent!


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> Congratulations!


Thanks Cliff  maybe the 10th time around I'll actually know what I'm doing! MAYBE then I may feel like I can offer some valuable advice 



dogma13 said:


> I love success stories.Thanks for the update!


Thanks Dogma! I just had to get my head outta the sand and start doing stuff instead of lamenting online all the time and feeling sorry for myself, haha! Thank you for the encouragement!


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## Freyja (May 24, 2016)

Chai said:


> Around other dogs Tchai is still a d***head as my general obedience trainer likes to call him. Not aggressive at all, but likes to push buttons and make a general nuisance of himself.


This little segment represents Rollo so well. Congratulations on Tchai's improvement, I feel like I'm in the same boat at the moment with Rollo (yay, over-socialisation :frown2 but we've also started working with a professional for his reactivity (he's only near 8 months, so hoping we'll get over the hurdle quick!)

You've done so well with Tchai! Yay!


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Freyja said:


> This little segment represents Rollo so well. Congratulations on Tchai's improvement, I feel like I'm in the same boat at the moment with Rollo (yay, over-socialisation :frown2 but we've also started working with a professional for his reactivity (he's only near 8 months, so hoping we'll get over the hurdle quick!)
> 
> You've done so well with Tchai! Yay!


Thanks Freyja! If Rollo is anything like Tchai as you suggest, then he must be a very fun dog who keeps you on your toes! Enjoy him  I am very interested to see our overall picture when Tchai begins to mature, so i will keep you updated


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

This is exactly why I tought my pup to ignore other dogs on walks. I started out just like you and at 4 months it was horrible. Barked at every dog. Now I can walk within a few feet of another dog and she doesn't react. She's 5 months old now.


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