# What is going on with our GSD?



## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Hi all,

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. We have a 15-month-old GSD, Margot, who seems to be getting worse in terms of behaviour. She has recently been spayed but we're not sure this has anything to do with it. A long story short:

We did original training classes when she was very young with what I would describe as a "soft" training school. It was all treats and rewards and praise and repetition until your dog did the required thing. 

We stopped training classes due to Covid so we were working with her ourselves for about 6 months. 

In the last few months, we have found that certain of her behaviours were getting worse - pulling on the lead, barking at the window etc so we looked into new training for her. We went for a trainer that specialises in working dogs.

This trainer was much more of the "hard" training approach. He emphasised control, making sure your dog knows who is boss and only rewarding with treats when the dog is following instructions exactly. He also recommended changing to a leather slip lead for her walking and control. I was very apprehensive but decided to try it if it was going to make a difference.

Some of her behaviour has improved as a result - she walks closer to me when out and about. However, she is still pulling on the slip lead consistently and choking herself (and yes, I have put it on the right way round - lots of googling on that one!) and she is never relaxed when she's on it. 

She has also become more nervous and thus more aggressive to other people and dogs. Even though she pulled a lot previously with an extendable lead or clip lead, she was always relatively friendly when she met people. She is now much warier and has barked aggressively a few times when we've been out and close to other people coming the other way. This happens both on and off the lead.

The trainer also recommended using the slip lead when people come to the door to get her out of the habit of barking - basically holding her in place until she calms down. She is doing it to some extent but she's still choking herself most of the time and it's very distressing.

The final straw came this afternoon when some friends with a small child called - Margot has met this child before in the house and has been absolutely fine with her. Today, with the slip lead on, she lunged towards her and very nearly bit her. 

We simply have no idea what to do - our lovely dog (if somewhat headstrong in some areas) seems to be turning into an aggressive monster that we don't recognise. We don't know whether this is the new style of training, the slip lead, whether this training style is making her worse etc. 

Please, please help us to understand what is happening to her! The thought of her becoming dangerous or, even worse, hurting someone is too much to contemplate! However, we also know that her previous behaviour (pulling, not listening) is not acceptable either so we're totally stumped!


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

teenagers! sounds like she's having some trouble with reaching maturity. Is she a purebred? Or mixed with something else? How is her health? Is she intact? (she may be seeing other people as a threat to her motherly instincts). I'd suggest a trip to the vet for a checkup.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

How did you react when she lunged at the child?

She's reached the teenage stage, where many GSDs suddenly forget their training, and need to be reminded, and put firmly in their place when they forget.

Many dogs become more protective of the home and their owners during adolescence. She need to know she doesn't need to protect you, because YOU are in charge.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> teenagers! sounds like she's having some trouble with reaching maturity. Is she a purebred? Or mixed with something else? How is her health? Is she intact? (she may be seeing other people as a threat to her motherly instincts). I'd suggest a trip to the vet for a checkup.


She's pure bred, her health is generally excellent. She had an infection about 4 or 5 months ago which needed antibiotics and she had a tick which we got out straight away when we spotted it. She's been spayed very recently which may have something to do with it? If she's scared after that happened to her perhaps? She's been fine with us.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

We removed her from the child straight away but the damage (metaphorically) had already been done by then and the child was terrified! We felt awful that it had happened, especially as she had met and played with her before. 

Re: putting her firmly in her place, that sounds like you think the trainer is on the right course with the slip lead etc?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The OP said she is spayed.I think the slip lead is very likely to cause her to be even more agitated. Ineffective tugs become a nagging irritant instead of a correction. A correction will make the dog cease immediately. You follow up by giving her a task you can reward her for.
She also needs a couple of sessions of vigorous exercise daily to burn off energy and snuffle around just being a dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'll add when receiving guests, gate her in another room so she can observe at a comfortable distance and have your guests ignore her completely. You can teach her a place command eventually. She can learn to be neutral at the very least.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> The OP said she is spayed.I think the slip lead is very likely to cause her to be even more agitated. Ineffective tugs become a nagging irritant instead of a correction. A correction will make the dog cease immediately. You follow up by giving her a task you can reward her for.
> She also needs a couple of sessions of vigorous exercise daily to burn off energy and snuffle around just being a dog.


Can you explain what you mean by "a correction" please @dogma13 ? I do feel like the slip lead is more of an irritation for her at the moment. 

Normally she gets plenty of vigorous off-lead exercise which she loves but our vet recommended a couple of weeks of on-lead walks until she's fully healed from her op. It makes it harder, certainly.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, I do. We're talking about a breed of dog that has been bred to protect, not a lap dog. You need to set very firm boundaries with them, or they WILL take charge. They should NOT be the ones making the decisions about who is welcome in your home.

How can I explain this without making you think I'm being cruel or abusive?

You have to suit the correction to the dog and the severity of the offence. Some GSDs shrug off mild corrections. Others don't. I used to own one of those dogs. Needless to say, she was a rescue. When I tried introducing her to my male GSD, she latched onto his hind leg, and would not let go. Verbal reprimands did nothing. I corrected her with the prong collar just as hard as I could. I kicked her just as hard as I could. I even kicked her in the face. She paid no attention to me at all. Finally, in desperation. I sat on her, hoping I could use my hands to choke her out. That did the trick, and she FINALLY let go.

You'd better believe me, after that, the next time she went after another dog, I corrected her so hard she yelped. It was the last time she ever tried to do that when on leash.

If my dog had lunged at that child, she would have gotten a correction she wouldn't have forgotten any time soon. I save gentle corrections for things that aren't going to cause bodily harm to someone else.

As was said above, ineffectual corrections are useless. 

And training SHOULD be more reward based than punishment based. But for major stuff like this, I don't fool around. After you've experienced something like I posted above, you'll do anything you can to prevent a repeat!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I disagree with letting a dog self correct until it calms down. You are rolling the dice with what association the dog is going to make with the correction. I much prefer a verbal followed by a quick correction and then a command.

Timing is really important, and so is the intensity of the correction. How does the dog behave for the trainer?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm with @dogma13 

That line is causing frustration and it's built up to the point of an almost bite. You can teach your dog to walk on a flat collar by teaching her to release to the pressure. Put a prong on her to stop her pulling and teach her to Leave it. 

The only time I use a choke collar (which IS what the slip lead is) is to shut down a reaction. However, I'm super tired of trainers only shutting down reactions with harsh corrections and never teaching the dog any skills to cope with stress and live in society. Your dog wasn't even having episodes of having reactions until you started using the leash so that was definitely the wrong tool for the job. 

Look up They Naughty Dogge blog and search loose leash walking. She has a great article explaining how she teaches it. Teach your dog Leave It and correct her with a prong collar for not doing so. And teach your dog a skill to cope with stress such as Look At That. And...teach her to Sit. She can't lunge and react if she's sitting.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

When correcting an unprovoked growl or lunge/snap at a child, I'd correct it as if the bite happened; swift fair/firm and leave no doubt to them that they never want to do that again. Anything less than that is poor communication and not fair to the dog.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I'm with @dogma13
> 
> That line is causing frustration and it's built up to the point of an almost bite. You can teach your dog to walk on a flat collar by teaching her to release to the pressure. Put a prong on her to stop her pulling and teach her to Leave it.
> 
> ...


Oddly enough, no matter how excited Rogan gets even with exciting strange dogs or coyotes) he will sit in a heartbeat to diffuse situations. If you can teach a down in that situation, you're gold but I think that sometimes puts a dog in an uncomfortable compromised position.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

David Winners said:


> I disagree with letting a dog self correct until it calms down. You are rolling the dice with what association the dog is going to make with the correction. I much prefer a verbal followed by a quick correction and then a command.
> 
> Timing is really important, and so is the intensity of the correction. How does the dog behave for the trainer?


Forgive my ignorance, it may just be terms I'm not familiar with but what do you mean by "a verbal", correction and command? 

She is OK for the trainer, and OK for me some of the time but I think she's scared of the trainer and the environment. She visibly shakes when she gets there. When I am walking with her I feel like I'm constantly correcting her with the slip lead and it makes little difference except to make my arm ache! 

To contrast to the bad experience with the kid, we have had a tradesman in today as well. She barked in an absolute frenzy when he arrived but once she had worked him out and he was in the house, she pretty much lay down beside him all day while he got on with his job. She is such a lovely dog when she's calm.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@turntableslave Jax and David are pros at handling and teaching reactive dogs and owners. Take their advice to heartLose the slip lead and the current trainer.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You are probably better off with a prong collar. Check the Leerburg.com for using and measuring the correct collar size. She sounds like a normal bratty adolescent teenager dog. GSD can get pretty intense in these stages. It's not a good sign that she is afraid of the trainer. A good trainer is adored by it's canine students. It's why they often want to go home with me after a private training. I consider that my main pay off, without wanting to sound too braggy 😉


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

What you are doing isn't working. I would shift gears towards OB with lots of rewards and quick, meaningful corrections for non compliance. If that means a different trainer, then so be it.

I use slip leads for handler aggression and for dogs that get crazy amped up on a prong in situations where that's not a good thing. I see no need for it here, and it doesn't seem to be effective in the manner it is being used.

Shaking doesn't mean fearful, it could be excitement. If she is in fact fearful of the trainer, that would be a red flag.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

turntableslave said:


> Forgive my ignorance, it may just be terms I'm not familiar with but what do you mean by "a verbal", correction and command?
> 
> She is OK for the trainer, and OK for me some of the time but I think she's scared of the trainer and the environment.* She visibly shakes when she gets there*. When I am walking with her I feel like I'm constantly *correcting her with the slip lead and it makes little difference* except to make my arm ache!
> 
> To contrast to the bad experience with the kid, we have had a tradesman in today as well. She barked in an absolute frenzy when he arrived but once she had worked him out and he was in the house, she pretty much lay down beside him all day while he got on with his job. She is such a lovely dog when she's calm.


Here is the answer to your question. This says everything. Get a different trainer immediately. One that will teach you fair, balanced, obedience and will teach her skills to cope with life. Sounds like you just had a brat that needed obedience and now you have to undo the fear and anxiety this trainer created. 

Your "correction" for the behavior should have gone like this. Dog reacts. You say Sit! (because you can't correct an emotion but you can correct disobedience and because sitting is the opposite of reacting), the dog ignores you so you issue a firm correction and then you say again Sit! Dog complies and you reward for complying with the sit. David may do it differently but this has yet to fail me and gives me the results I need when done consistently. And I work on being proactive. I will Sit my dog before they can react and reward for hte right behavior. If the dog is reacting, you have already lost control so then the battle is getting that back. Up your obedience and engagement and half of your battle is won.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> What you are doing isn't working. I would shift gears towards OB with lots of rewards and quick, meaningful corrections for non compliance. If that means a different trainer, then so be it.
> 
> I use slip leads for handler aggression and for dogs that get crazy amped up on a prong in situations where that's not a good thing. I see no need for it here, and it doesn't seem to be effective in the manner it is being used.


100%. 

Only I use the slip for any reactivity to shut down the reaction whether it's handler, dogs or people and it's the only time I use it. I use the prong for all other corrections of non compliance.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

So to me a correction is a quick collar pop whether flat or prong. To clarify for the OP, (and me) is that what you all are referring to?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It’s possible to use a choke for all situations but it requires a lot of skill and excellent timing. I don’t think the current trainer taught you that.

I remember long time ago I read on Leerburg site that inexperienced owners tend to overcorrect without a valid reason. I took that statement to heart so I always teach yield to leash and collar pressure as well as a meaning of a correction. I try to be very fair with corrections and very crystal clear in my expectations. The majority of the training is motivational, toys, games, clicker, treats. 

I absolutely hate “trainers” that use 100 compulsion on unsuspecting bright eyed spirited puppies and instead of teaching them try to kill their will. And break them. Why do you handle your dogs leash to a person that frightens your dog? You will be living with the consequences, not the “trainer”.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Where about in the UK are you located?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Here is the answer to your question. This says everything. Get a different trainer immediately. One that will teach you fair, balanced, obedience and will teach her skills to cope with life. Sounds like you just had a brat that needed obedience and now you have to undo the fear and anxiety this trainer created.
> 
> Your "correction" for the behavior should have gone like this. Dog reacts. You say Sit! (because you can't correct an emotion but you can correct disobedience and because sitting is the opposite of reacting), the dog ignores you so you issue a firm correction and then you say again Sit! Dog complies and you reward for complying with the sit. David may do it differently but this has yet to fail me and gives me the results I need when done consistently. And I work on being proactive. I will Sit my dog before they can react and reward for hte right behavior. If the dog is reacting, you have already lost control so then the battle is getting that back. Up your obedience and engagement and half of your battle is won.


The only thing I do differently is I use down instead of sit 

Solid OB solves almost all pet issues. Learning to read the dog and stay under threshold often enough to keep a solid reward schedule while incrementally working towards the distraction is where working with a good trainer can help you. It's not necessary but things move much faster.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> It’s possible to use a choke for all situations but it requires a lot of skill and excellent timing. I don’t think the current trainer taught you that.
> 
> I remember long time ago I read on Leerburg site that inexperienced owners tend to overcorrect without a valid reason. I took that statement to heart so I always teach yield to leash and collar pressure as well as a meaning of a correction. I try to be very fair with corrections and very crystal clear in my expectations. The majority of the training is motivational, toys, games, clicker, treats.
> 
> I absolutely hate “trainers” that use 100 compulsion on unsuspecting bright eyed spirited puppies and instead of teaching them try to kill their will. And break them. Why do you handle your dogs leash to a person that frightens your dog? You will be living with the consequences, not the “trainer”.


There are dogs that I train using mainly compulsion. They are dogs that don't care about food or toys and have little drive. I use leash pressure or e-collar to guide them into a behavior or position and then release the pressure and reward socially.

I agree that there is no need for heavy handedness in all but the most extreme situations where a dog is coming up leash, and that can usually be avoided through careful planning.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

ksotto333 said:


> So to me a correction is a quick collar pop whether flat or prong. To clarify for the OP, (and me) is that what you all are referring to?


Could be. Could be a finger poke, removing the reward, verbal correction, clap of your hands. It really depends on the dog and situation.

I load a positive punishment marker, which means every time I give a verbal correction, a physical correction follows (see list above). Tis makes things easier later when I may not have means to give an immediate correction but I still want to communicate that to the dog. Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not born understanding the word "no" and believing that they do causes all kinds of miscommunication.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's how I NORMALLY handle corrections:

First - let's say I tell the dog to 'sit'. and they ignore me Assuming the dog knows the command, and is just blowing me off, I would repeat the command, and give a gentle leash pop to get their attention. If they still refused, I would tug upward on the leash, and push gently down on the hindquarters. Then, as soon as they sat, I'd say 'YES!" and treat.

If they were distracted by another dog, and about to lunge or bark. I'd give the 'look' command. If they ignored it, repeat it, and leash pop. IF they still ignored it, repeat louder and more urgently, and depending on the dog, I might tell them to sit or lie down, depending on how close to lunging I knew they were. Then, of course, reward and treat.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> Here's how I NORMALLY handle corrections:
> 
> First - let's say I tell the dog to 'sit'. and they ignore me Assuming the dog knows the command, and is just blowing me off, I would repeat the command, and give a gentle leash pop to get their attention. If they still refused, I would tug upward on the leash, and push gently down on the hindquarters. Then, as soon as they sat, I'd say 'YES!" and treat.
> 
> If they were distracted by another dog, and about to lunge or bark. I'd give the 'look' command. If they ignored it, repeat it, and leash pop. IF they still ignored it, repeat louder and more urgently, and depending on the dog, I might tell them to sit or lie down, depending on how close to lunging I knew they were. Then, of course, reward and treat.


In the above scenarios the dog is still in teaching/ learning mode. Why do you reward the sit after your dog blew you off 2 times and you had to physically guide him into a sit? Why not to say “good” and then ask him to do something else so he succeeds and rewarded? Then the sit again?

I do a lot of random sits in all positions, all situations, rewars a lot, reward randomly, with the goal to have a long reinforcement history and work up to getting an immediate sit without thinking. Then when I say “Sit” the dog sits. I do not repeat a command. My dog has no choice. If I cannot enforce or I know the dog is way over his threshold I will not give the command.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yes what David said about the corrections. One time my then puppy took my withholding a cookie he thought he deserved as an unfair correction. He launched at me to let me know how unfair I was. He was a terror as a puppy, taught me a lot though.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Could be. Could be a finger poke, removing the reward, verbal correction, clap of your hands. It really depends on the dog and situation.
> 
> I load a positive punishment marker, which means every time I give a verbal correction, a physical correction follows (see list above). Tis makes things easier later when I may not have means to give an immediate correction but I still want to communicate that to the dog. Contrary to popular belief, dogs are not born understanding the word "no" and believing that they do causes all kinds of miscommunication.


That makes sense, I use the leash as a last resort if she's blowing me off. I use verbal corrections (eh, hey now, or click) most often. I think I was thinking of over the top behaviors.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

ksotto333 said:


> That makes sense, I use the leash as a last resort if she's blowing me off. I use verbal corrections (eh, hey now, or click) most often. I think I was thinking of over the top behaviors.


And that's what works for your dog. The problem with internet advice is that you can't see the dog, you can't see the handler, and terms are different for everyone.

Over the top for me is a dog latched onto my arm. I'm thinking it means something different to you.

It really is all about the dog and what effect anything has on behavior. A reward is only a reward of it is rewarding to the dog. Our idea of what should be rewarding has no bearing on training, other than frustrating the handler if we get it wrong. Same goes for a correction. All dogs have their own ideas about discomfort, competing motivators, drive, biddability, past experience, excitement level etc...


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Wow, thank you all so much for your responses. I am feeling quite overwhelmed! 

To answer a few of the things that have been mentioned in posts above 


We are in north-west England, near Liverpool and Manchester. It's quite built up but we're lucky to have plenty of fields and parks for her to play in nearby.
It sounds like the general feeling of most posters is a "no" to the slip lead - we did have an extendable but I got rid of it as she was very hard to control if you wanted her to be close to you. We have a 5ft clip lead in addition to the slip lead - do I drop back to using that or get something longer? When we walk her on the clip lead the pulling can be severe (see below).
We don't have a prong collar - it's not really a done thing around here so I don't even know where I would get one from although I see it a lot on American YouTube GSD videos. She has a Julius K9 collar which fits her well but is not constricting at all. 
 A lot of what people have been saying about correction, positive reinforcement etc is what we've been trying to do. Clearly, we're not doing it right because the behaviours still remain but it is the path we were on before the latest change in training style.
Our main instances of bad behaviours from Margot before this latest episode are as follows:

1. Pulling on the lead - she generally walks well after exercise (mostly after running for the ball, she loooooves her ball!) but before that she pulls quite severely depending on how excited she is. When I am on my own she's not too bad but add in the family going for a walk (me, my wife and kids) and she can pull the entire way round. As you guys know, getting pulled for a couple of miles by a powerful GSD on a lead is no joke. We switched to an extendable lead because she was better on it trotting back and forth between the family but there's just no control there so we gave it up again. The slip lead has made her walk better at my side but she's still pulling and, as mentioned in a previous post, my constant yanking on the slip lead is just an irritant to her I think.
2. Barking at ... well, everything - she is very highly strung when anyone comes to the door. When friends and family call, she barks like crazy until they get in the house and then after a couple of seconds of sniffing them, she's their best friend! It's obviously not the situation we want to be in though, it's scary for anyone but especially when children are involved. She goes absolutely nuts at postmen, delivery drivers and other people who come to the door, especially in hi-vis clothing. She doesn't calm down until they've gone away. Again, this is very stressful for everyone. It doesn't help that we have a non-movable window seat by the front door so she tries to jump on that every time the doorbell rings. We have tried test ringing the bell over and over to get her used to the sound which she does quite well but as soon as it's a real event again, she forgets everything and just reverts to barking. 
3. Cats (and other moving creatures) - she goes mad when a cat makes it into the garden. She either runs outside madly barking or (if the door is closed) stands there going insane whilst trying to get to it. When out walking, she has a similar lack of control if she sees a cat or a squirrel during the walk. On the lead, she pulls like mad, off the lead, she will just chase it immediately. It really wouldn't surprise me if she ran into danger whilst doing so at some point! 😢

I have made her sound like a badly behaved dog there which, most of the time, she really isn't. She settles well, she's good with people in the house, she goes to daycare some of the time with other dogs and always gets on well there and, until very recently, pretty much always reacts well when we meet other people or dogs out and about. 

I guess what I am saying is I don't know what we're going to do next. We have tried command + treat, we have tried command, repeat command + treat, we have tried clapping, we have tried many words, few words, we have tried doing things with the lead on, with the lead off, we have now tried negative consequences with the slip lead but none of them seems to have cracked it and the last one seems to have made her far worse. If we could eliminate the pulling and the reactive barking, we'd all be so much happier! 😞


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

vonwolfk9 in the UK is where I have gotten my prong collars. I would chose a 2.25mm or 3.2mm size. I have both and use both. 2.25 is sharper, but easier to flick a correction. Depending on your dog you may be able to disguise them (you can get black, brass, stainless steel). Backup to a slip collar if you already have one. 

Good luck! You've gotten great advice here.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My trainer likes slip leads if the dog isn’t a puller. He feels it gives him better control than a prong without the stigma. He uses them when an owner refuses to use a stronger collar. He’s had very good results with them in teaching dogs not to pull, but he’s also very adept in their use.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> In the above scenarios the dog is still in teaching/ learning mode. Why do you reward the sit after your dog blew you off 2 times and you had to physically guide him into a sit? Why not to say “good” and then ask him to do something else so he succeeds and rewarded? Then the sit again?
> 
> I do a lot of random sits in all positions, all situations, rewars a lot, reward randomly, with the goal to have a long reinforcement history and work up to getting an immediate sit without thinking. Then when I say “Sit” the dog sits. I do not repeat a command. My dog has no choice. If I cannot enforce or I know the dog is way over his threshold I will not give the command.


yep…. i’m not paying the dog for the work i’ve done.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

turntableslave said:


> We are in north-west England, near Liverpool and Manchester. It's quite built up but we're lucky to have plenty of fields and parks for her to play in nearby.


I am not too far from you, I am in North Wales.

You have two of the best balanced dog trainers in the UK right on your door step.

Chris Williams Wirral K9 Academy

Danny Wells Unleashed K9 Services

I have personally used Chris and I can vouch for him, he knows his stuff. I only know by Danny by reputation. If you are looking for a new trainer, then you can not go wrong with either of these two.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Gwyllgi said:


> I am not too far from you, I am in North Wales.
> 
> You have two of the best balanced dog trainers in the UK right on your door step.
> 
> ...


Thanks @Gwyllgi, I have looked at both links. However, they both seem to be advocates of prong collars, electronic collars etc as a use of control. If that's the case, I'm not sure we're any better off with them than we are with the current trainer using the slip lead and increasing her anxiety? Her nervousness and anxiety on walks has _greatly_ increased since the use of the slip lead, I just feel like we would be giving her something else to freak out about. We can't keep chopping and changing training methods. My biggest worry is that piling all these negative experiences on top of each other are going to become impossible to undo and our happy, loving dog will be irreparably damaged.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

turntableslave said:


> Thanks @Gwyllgi, I have looked at both links. However, they both seem to be advocates of prong collars, electronic collars etc as a use of control. If that's the case, I'm not sure we're any better off with them than we are with the current trainer using the slip lead and increasing her anxiety? Her nervousness and anxiety on walks has _greatly_ increased since the use of the slip lead, I just feel like we would be giving her something else to freak out about. We can't keep chopping and changing training methods. My biggest worry is that piling all these negative experiences on top of each other are going to become impossible to undo and our happy, loving dog will be irreparably damaged.


I can tell you that Chris has many years of experience in training reactive and nervous dogs. He uses a lot of marker training with treats as rewards. He does not use the prong or e collar with all dogs and those he does, he explains to the owner the proper use, and if the owner does not want to use them, then he won't either.

My advice would be to give him a call and speak to him. A woman had a very reactive GSD and she had gone to 12 trainers and non could solve the problems. Chris was the 13th trainer and the dog is now a joy to walk.

Ask if you can go and watch his obedience classes and see peoples dogs being trained.

My dog loved him when she went there.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

turntableslave said:


> Thanks @Gwyllgi, I have looked at both links. However, they both seem to be advocates of prong collars, electronic collars etc as a use of control. If that's the case, I'm not sure we're any better off with them than we are with the current trainer using the slip lead and increasing her anxiety? Her nervousness and anxiety on walks has _greatly_ increased since the use of the slip lead, I just feel like we would be giving her something else to freak out about. We can't keep chopping and changing training methods. My biggest worry is that piling all these negative experiences on top of each other are going to become impossible to undo and our happy, loving dog will be irreparably damaged.


I think you are taking your current experiences and transferring them onto other trainers. I have no experience with either of these trainers, but the one you have now doesn't understand your dog.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Yes, over the top is definitely different for me. Can't even imagine one of my dogs grabbing my arm.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Gwyllgi said:


> I can tell you that Chris has many years of experience in training reactive and nervous dogs. He uses a lot of marker training with treats as rewards. He does not use the prong or e collar with all dogs and those he does, he explains to the owner the proper use, and if the owner does not want to use them, then he won't either.
> 
> My advice would be to give him a call and speak to him. A woman had a very reactive GSD and she had gone to 12 trainers and non could solve the problems. Chris was the 13th trainer and the dog is now a joy to walk.
> 
> ...


Well I have rung Chris this morning and had a good chat with him. We'll be doing a one-to-one with him in a couple of weeks. Thanks for the recommendation @Gwyllgi, I can't say I am totally reassured yet but at least I have a way forward 

Hopefully that means not another sleepless night like last night worrying about what we're going to do with Margot 🙏


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## doubleroll (Jul 5, 2011)

Reading the comments, I can see that the advice given, by the knowledgeable experts that contribute to this forum, are very similar to what our trainer has provided. Our girl is 15 months and we have her in group sessions with her breeder/trainer who she absolutely loves…she has never lunged or tried to bite but she is going thru an adolescent phase and a false pregnancy to boot. Things like barking at dogs, especially females, and general stubbornness. 

We have her on a prong, recommended by her trainer, since she started training a few months ago. It really changed the way she behaves and we actually need less correction with it than with a flat or even a fur saver slip chain. 

Anyway good luck and working with the right trainer is really the key here…We were lucky that our breeder is a great resource for us. Let us know how it goes!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's great news! Keep us updated!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Training tools are not what makes or breaks training success. It's how they are used and the education of the trainer and his/her knowledge of dogs in general, how they learn and especially the dog they are working with.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

I am pleased that you gave Chris a call, even if you decide not to use him, his advice will be worth it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Traing tools are not what makes or breaks training success. It's how they are used and the education of the trainer and his/her knowledge of dogs in general, how they learn and especially the dog they are working with.


EXACTLY!! It's not the slip lead increasing your dog's anxiety, it's how it's being used. The dog should not be pulling with the slip lead. A good trainer would teach you how to stop the pulling.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> EXACTLY!! It's not the slip lead increasing your dog's anxiety, it's how it's being used. The dog should not be pulling with the slip lead. A good trainer would teach you how to stop the pulling.


I am more than happy to say I don't know the best ways to do things, this is our first GSD and we know we still have a long way to go. However, I feel like the current approach is doing more damage than it is correction and, based on the walking training I have done so far, I think I'm doing it "right" (i.e. how I was shown to do it). It can't be a coincidence that she is far more angsty and nervous/aggressive since we switched over to the slip? My arm is tense the whole walk and I know she is feeling that and that tension transfers to her.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

doubleroll said:


> Reading the comments, I can see that the advice given, by the knowledgeable experts that contribute to this forum, are very similar to what our trainer has provided. Our girl is 15 months and we have her in group sessions with her breeder/trainer who she absolutely loves…she has never lunged or tried to bite but she is going thru an adolescent phase and a false pregnancy to boot. Things like barking at dogs, especially females, and general stubbornness.
> 
> We have her on a prong, recommended by her trainer, since she started training a few months ago. It really changed the way she behaves and we actually need less correction with it than with a flat or even a fur saver slip chain.
> 
> Anyway good luck and working with the right trainer is really the key here…We were lucky that our breeder is a great resource for us. Let us know how it goes!


How did you find the change to the prong? Was she distressed at first? To be honest, I can't believe I am even considering using it, I certainly wouldn't have thought about it a couple of months ago!  But we also can't spend the rest of her life constantly fighting each other every time we go for a walk!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is good prong training.





There are subtleties necessary for things to work. It's not about the particular tool. A prong is generally easier, but the right foundation needs to go into it with a fearful dog or it could backfire imo.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

David Winners said:


> This is good prong training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. OK, would you expect a similar approach to slip lead training because that is _nothing _like I have been shown? Margot is on the slip, my hand is close by my side and her head stays in line with it. Any movement off the close walk is tugged immediately. Hence I spend my entire time tugging her head on every walk


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

turntableslave said:


> Wow. OK, would you expect a similar approach to slip lead training because that is _nothing _like I have been shown? Margot is on the slip, my hand is close by my side and her head stays in line with it. Any movement off the close walk is tugged immediately. Hence I spend my entire time tugging her head on every walk


That doesn't sound like much fun to me.

It's really not something I can explain in a few paragraphs or that you can really learn in a short period without someone there to guide you.

The short answer is maybe lol


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

David Winners said:


> That doesn't sound like much fun to me.
> 
> It's really not something I can explain in a few paragraphs or that you can really learn in a short period without someone there to guide you.
> 
> The short answer is maybe lol


Haha, it's the complete opposite of fun which suggests it might be where the problem is stemming from! Maybe we've had the right tool and the wrong technique then?! Under our current routine she's not allowed to sniff anything, stop unless I let her and her head is constantly on pull. I see people talk about "conversing" with the leash - right now, my only conversation is "stop it - pull, stop it - pull, stop it - pull"


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is how I start, not on a walk. It's also important for me to point out that I don't teach a formal heel to pet dogs, just loose leash walking. I let them have some freedom or bring them in closer depending on the situation. Once the dog understands leash pressure, you can have whatever you want. Right side, left side, room to explore and sniff, tight to you, whatever that situation calls for.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

You are using the slip wrong, you are not training your dog the way you are doing it. Stop it what? Stop it chocking her? One day your dog will stop it, very effectively and you will not like how. The leash has to be in the right hand hanging, like a U letter, and your dog just walks next to you. She can walk ahead of you, on a loose leash, and return to the side if needed. That's your goal.

How long is your walk? How often you release your dog from what seems like walking in a tight heel position? How do your reward? Are you actually training the heel or loose leash walking using the tool, or just expect your dog to follow you under a threat of corrections (which your dog is already getting desensitized to and may start fighting pretty soon) and be on a training collar forever? Those are questions you have to answer before even putting a leash on your dog (who sounds like a normal GSD to me by the way, nothing extraordinary in her behavior.)

You need a reset. Do not let her practice pulling on a collar, at all. Tyler Muto mentioned above has a great DVD on loose leash walking, you can follow his instructions step by step, they will all make sense (he does talk about leash pressure there I believe) and work with your new trainer. And again, while doing it, do not let your dog practice pulling.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> This is good prong training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! Cute Pittie. Soft hands is so interesting. It worked with horseback riding. Having soft hands transfers to the horse's mind set. Same with dogs I have found. I think they feel your mind.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

I have been told (and bear in mind this is from the trainer, not me making this up) that my hand should be as close as this at all times. No slack on the lead, head in that position. The walk is at constant heel and we walk a long way on leash, at least a mile before she goes off leash for a play. Then a mile back. 

We were on an extendable lead before this which had its own problems in terms of controlling her but it was always such a happy walk with my dog and now we're both miserable! 

I am ditching that technique from tomorrow based on what you guys are saying. I feel a bit sick tbh


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

It is hard to get a straight answer as to what a correction is. Here's one:

"How to Give an Effective Leash and Collar Correction
The leash correction should be given by a quick snap back on the leash. It will not hurt or frighten your pup, but it will distract and redirect their attention or stop them from an unacceptable behavior. It helps your pup engage and focus on you.

The leash should start off loose without tension before the correction and be loosened immediately after the correction has been administered."





__





Effective Correction







www.guidedog.org





This is how I was taught at my training classes. I use a prong collar. Jupiter is one of those "hard"-ish dogs who tends to ignore everything but fearsome yanks--my trainer had me practice on a chair (putting the collar on the chair so I could get the feel without being afraid of hurting my dog). I don't know what Jupiter's neck is made of, but his pain tolerance seems to be extreme--maybe all the fur.

Personally, I avoid corrections whenever possible because I don't like to inflict pain on my dog. Sometimes, it's necessary. I would rather give a strong, quick yank than let him get in a dust-up with another dog or jump out into the street.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

turntableslave said:


> I am more than happy to say I don't know the best ways to do things, this is our first GSD and we know we still have a long way to go. However, I feel like the current approach is doing more damage than it is correction and, based on the walking training I have done so far, I think I'm doing it "right" (i.e. how I was shown to do it). It can't be a coincidence that she is far more angsty and nervous/aggressive since we switched over to the slip? My arm is tense the whole walk and I know she is feeling that and that tension transfers to her.


If your arm is tense the whole time YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!! Watch the videos for the correct way to walk with your dog. The lead should be loose at all times. Or at least 98% of the time.

Dave has more experience than nearly anyone else on this board.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ditch the Flexi: They are dangerous, and you have little control with the dog that far away from you.
Also, if your dog decided to lunge at something, the thin cord of the Flexi makes it very difficult and dangerous to grab when trying to get the dog under control. I saw a lady's Afghan hound yank the Flexi right out of her hand when he lunged at a squirrel. Lucky thing the squirrel didn't dash out into the nearby road, or there might have been a dead dog!

Flexi injury:


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

turntableslave said:


> I have been told (and bear in mind this is from the trainer, not me making this up) that my hand should be as close as this at all times. No slack on the lead, head in that position. The walk is at constant heel and we walk a long way on leash, at least a mile before she goes off leash for a play. Then a mile back.
> 
> We were on an extendable lead before this which had its own problems in terms of controlling her but it was always such a happy walk with my dog and now we're both miserable!
> 
> I am ditching that technique from tomorrow based on what you guys are saying. I feel a bit sick tbh


Look at her sweet face, so glad you are getting answers. You both will start enjoying each other again.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I regularly walk my dog on a 1" long line (not a retractable leash) and harness. I think it is a fantastic tool for a lot of situations. I'm not a "walk through the neighborhood" kind of guy, though I do use a long line for that.

That's a different set of rules for the dog and if I want him close, I snap a 6 footer on his collar.

Again, it's less about what tool you use and more about your ability to help the dog understand the rules, which comes more from successful reps than corrections.

I aim for 10:1 rewards to corrections.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Also, general obedience in daily life in casual situations, inside and outside the house, yard etc, helps a great deal in the "official obedience". Coming when called in the house, waiting for food, the door, etc, is just as mandatory as heeling on the training field (for mine)


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Well, I took her out on the slip lead this morning and practised loose lead walking as has been discussed previously. What a huge difference. She still pulled a little but once she started to work out what her "zone" was around the lead it was getting better and better! I pulled up to correct her and she (generally) listened. No more aching arm! We met a few people and I could get her to sit and wait whilst they went past - no pulling, no agitation. 

I feel like an _enormous _weight has been lifted from my shoulders. For the first time in weeks, I actually enjoyed our walk! Thank you so much everyone for your help in getting me to this point. I feel so angry that the method of slip lead walking I was shown by the trainer has distressed her so much to the point of aggression! It feels like I am getting my dog back again!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

What a good post to read. We all just want a good positive relationship with our dogs.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Thanks @ksotto333 - I have been so stressed out and miserable the last couple of days and suddenly it feels like the clouds have opened up! 👏

@David Winners - your video on the loose lead method was fantastic. Thank you so much for posting. It's what we had been doing before all this started but the flat lead clearly wasn't enough of a deterrent for her, she was too distracted by other things. Combining the loose lead "zone" idea and the slip lead seems to be making a big difference already. 

Just out of interest, does anyone think this trainer was totally wrong with his technique (walking with my hand by the side a couple of inches away from her head, not letting move away from me at all) or was it just the wrong way to introduce such a severe concept to a dog with fear and nervousness?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

turntableslave said:


> Thanks @ksotto333 - I have been so stressed out and miserable the last couple of days and suddenly it feels like the clouds have opened up! 👏
> 
> @David Winners - your video on the loose lead method was fantastic. Thank you so much for posting. It's what we had been doing before all this started but the flat lead clearly wasn't enough of a deterrent for her, she was too distracted by other things. Combining the loose lead "zone" idea and the slip lead seems to be making a big difference already.
> 
> Just out of interest, does anyone think this trainer was totally wrong with his technique (walking with my hand by the side a couple of inches away from her head, not letting move away from me at all) or was it just the wrong way to introduce such a severe concept to a dog with fear and nervousness?


If you talk to 5 professional dog trainers, the only thing they will agree on is that the 6th one is wrong 

The thing is, it's not about a particular technique or piece of equipment. Everything works when implemented properly on the proper dog. Inexperienced trainers have a small tool box. Maybe this worked 20 times in a row for this trainer. Now that's how he trains dogs to walk on leashes.

More experienced and successful trainers that work with a variety of dogs develop a bigger tool box and a better idea of what works with a particular dog and handler combination.

Experience matters.

Without video, all we have is your novice description of what's going on. No offense intended at all but if you understood body language and behavior, you wouldn't be asking questions like this. All dogs experience fear. How they handle it is partly genetic, partly past experience and partly handler relationship and interaction.

Any opinions would just be conjecture. 

If you really want potentially accurate advice, shoot a bunch of video (minutes long, not 10 second clips), post it on YouTube and share it here.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

David was not showing a method of loose leash walking. He was teaching the response to leash pressure that will be incorporated later into training many other things. Yes, please share a video of your walk!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> David was not showing a method of loose leash walking. He was teaching the response to leash pressure that will be incorporated later into training many other things. Yes, please share a video of your walk!


Yes, a specific conditioned response (habit) that can be used a lot of ways  I know you get it.

I probably didn't explain things well enough. This particular exercise is mastered and proofed before it is applied to walking the dog, or anything else for that matter. The dog will move in any direction instantly with the smallest pressure on the leash.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Without video, all we have is your novice description of what's going on. No offense intended at all but if you understood body language and behavior, you wouldn't be asking questions like this. All dogs experience fear.* How they handle it is partly genetic, partly past experience and partly handler relationship and interaction.*


Yes!


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## doubleroll (Jul 5, 2011)

turntableslave said:


> How did you find the change to the prong? Was she distressed at first? To be honest, I can't believe I am even considering using it, I certainly wouldn't have thought about it a couple of months ago!  But we also can't spend the rest of her life constantly fighting each other every time we go for a walk!


She was fine and adjusted quickly. I don’t keep it on her at all times but when we go out to a store, do some training at home or at the group class. Also, I don‘t walk her around the neighborhood but my kids do and she wears it then as well. 
She knows soon as it on and behaves accordingly, really doesn’t mind it at all. With the flat collar she was pulling and basically choking herself at times…

Good Luck!


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Sorry if I didn't explain well before. I used the idea of the leash pressure to control her on the walk. A couple of times she still pulled forward when she got over excited but most of the time a quick tug upwards was enough to keep her on a slack lead and return to me. 

I will try and get some video when we're out and about over the next few days


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

turntableslave said:


> Sorry if I didn't explain well before. I used the idea of the leash pressure to control her on the walk. A couple of times she still pulled forward when she got over excited but most of the time a quick tug upwards was enough to keep her on a slack lead and return to me.
> 
> I will try and get some video when we're out and about over the next few days


That isn't leash pressure. That is a correction.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

D'oh, I am clearly using all the wrong terms. Either way, she walked a lot better and we weren't fighting each other. She wasn't choking and the walk was relaxed. That will do me for now!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

turntableslave, does the instructor you were working with do schutzhund? Because that's how dogs are required to walk for schutzhund obedience. Of course, walking with your pet dog is much less controlled!


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> turntableslave, does the instructor you were working with do schutzhund? Because that's how dogs are required to walk for schutzhund obedience. Of course, walking with your pet dog is much less controlled!


I don't honestly know @Sunsilver , but that would make sense. Just looked up some videos and that close walking style looks very similar. His attitude and approach was that dogs need to work and do things because they're motivated all the time. His view was that dogs do not love you, they can be trained by anyone and will work with anyone if they are sufficiently rewarded. I didn't like that as an outlook but assumed that, as he was a professional, it was more my inexperience that was the problem. However, Margot has been so miserable since it started (and as you have seen, it's started to be expressed as aggression). 

Off out for another walk with her now, hopefully yesterday's change of approach wasn't a one-off! 🙏


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

*"I have been so stressed out and miserable*" 

Your emotions will travel down the leash, your dog can sense how you feel. I know easier said than said than done, try to be calm, relaxed and having a good time.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> *"I have been so stressed out and miserable*"
> 
> Your emotions will travel down the leash, your dog can sense how you feel. I know easier said than said than done, try to be calm, relaxed and having a good time.


Totally, @drparker151, she has been more relaxed the last 48 hrs because I am more relaxed  Our walk was not 100% perfect today with the slip lead because there were a lot of other distractions we need to work on (dogs, people, ducks, squirrels) but it's definitely not me constantly tense and restraining her as we walk like it was with the other technique the trainer told me to use.

The video posted by @smithersteve above was very good. I am now working on the "pop" to get her attention rather than a constant pull. Before it was just one long pull on her head the entire walk with her choking as she tried to get forward. I think after 2-3 weeks of someone constantly pulling my head for an hour each time, I would probably snap too! 😞 but it's only by hearing from you guys that I knew it was the wrong thing to do. Just googling something like "how do I stop my dog from pulling" will give you hundreds of opinions which may or may not be right so I am glad forums like this exist! 

Anyway, she's nice and relaxed now and enjoying a post-walk lie down!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I kinda agree with your trainer lol When I was volunteering for Search and rescue training I had a chance to run trails with active members certified dogs, and they did excellent job with me as a handler. They did not love me.

I don’t think your trainer wanted you to pull on your poor dogs head. I believe he wanted your hand close, the choke high, so you would correct with a flicker of a wrist and actually would prevent your dog from moving forward and choke herself? I also think it was meant for training sessions and not one hour long walks? I don’t know. I walk my dog like this when we are crossing busy multiple lane streets, I have a special cue for walking like that too.

I would also focus not on popping the leash but on rewarding the good walking behavior first. Heeling is difficult for a dog, you need to build it up and train it.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

I'm sure you're right for an active working dog @GSD07 but Margot is still a family pet and I was only looking for a polite and well-trained dog who walks well and is good with others - maybe it was just a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

The "choke high" action is probably right but when I was using that method for our walks, she just strained constantly on the lead to get past my wrist and so no amount of flicking was going to change that. She strained and choked, my arm felt like it was on fire because it was constantly pulling her back and it was rubbish for both of us! 

OK, a good tip on rewarding walking. I was giving her lots of praise this morning when she was returning - I'm sure the other dog walkers probably thought I'd lost it!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

turntableslave said:


> The "choke high" action is probably right but when I was using that method for our walks, she just strained constantly on the lead to get past my wrist and so no amount of flicking was going to change that. She strained and choked, my arm felt like it was on fire because it was constantly pulling her back and it was rubbish for both of us!


I'm going to try and explain why this is incorrect and its your lack of understanding that is holding things back.

Here is how it goes. You get the dog in place with your hand where you want it and take one step. If the dog continues to pull after you stop, quick small correction, start over. If you get one step, mark and reward. You gradually add in duration and turns. 

I can have a dog walking politely on a leash in about 5 minutes with no distractions. Give me 15 and we can add in automatic sits. Then you just build duration and add distraction incrementally until you get where you want. Loads of rewards. Set the dog up for success. Add in pressure or corrections to get the dog back on track.

You have a gross understanding of a technique that includes the equipment involved and a hand position. That's about 2% of the information needed to accomplish the goal.

I'm not putting you on blast here. Just trying to help you understand that it's not about the equipment, hand position, or given technique really. It's about how every little thing effects the dog and how you manipulate those little things to achieve a desired result.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Totally understand that a lot of it is my lack of experience @David Winners, however I am still angry that a trainer would essentially teach me a bit of a technique and then leave me doing that bit and thus causing a great amount of damage in both my relationship with my dog and potentially to other people. I am enjoying what I am learning about training and techniques but I am humble enough to know that many people have much more knowledge and experience than I have. Doesn't excuse a bad original explanation of the training technique though


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A good trainer uses words and visuals. Ideally, they should be able to articulate exactly what they want you to learn. They can watch what you are doing and both explain and show what you need to change. Your trainer may not be bad, he may just be inefficient. Some breeds can tolerate a lot of handler error. German Shepherds are always watching and learning. They need clear commands. If your dog doesn’t know what you want, she will fill in the blanks herself and teach herself bad habits. I switched from a trainer who was adequate but couldn’t explain things well to one who is articulate and creative.

I also had someone else there to video tape some of each lesson so I could rewatch. I missed a lot of what he said in sessions because I was trying to listen and handle the dog st the same time. As an example, we were working on mild leash pressure and how to get the dog to do what I wanted him to do. The trainer said the dog needs to make the choice but I need to set it up so so there is only one choice he can make. He noticed when I wanted the dog go one direction, he was instead circling the other way. I was using the leash to direct him, when my dog needed to figure out on his own that he could not circle around. I missed the details of what the trainer was saying at the time, but when I rewatched, I saw how he had me stand in a certain spot so my dog couldn’t circle but had to immediately turn and move into position. He also explained what he was asking me to do and why. I’m not explaining it well, but it worked. My leashwork was good, but I was standing in the wrong spot.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I can have a dog walking politely on a leash in about 5 minutes with no distractions.


Exactly! This IS quite possible if you understand the proper technique.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

turntableslave said:


> Totally understand that a lot of it is my lack of experience @David Winners, however I am still angry that a trainer would essentially teach me a bit of a technique and then leave me doing that bit and thus causing a great amount of damage in both my relationship with my dog and potentially to other people. I am enjoying what I am learning about training and techniques but I am humble enough to know that many people have much more knowledge and experience than I have. Doesn't excuse a bad original explanation of the training technique though


I'm hesitant to trash talk another trainer, though I totally see your point.

I rarely take private lesson clients without a set schedule that includes weeks of lessons. I have been where this trainer could be. Everything looks good after a couple lessons, while I'm there, and the moon is in the 4th house. Three weeks later, I get an angry call that "the dog pulled me up a tree and I had too have a pine cone removed from my spleen thanks to you and your terrible training."

Now I'm making some assumptions here that could very well be unfair in either direction. I'm just saying that you are in a pickle and blame isn't going to move you and your dog forward. 

I'm also trying to get you to focus on why training works and not some piece of gear or particular technique. Yes, I have HS prongs and Dogtra e-collars and fancy leashes and harnesses and more stainless bowls than any sane person needs, but none of it really matters.

It's about understanding how to motivate the dog to do what you want, when you want, and how to apply some rules to behaviors. 

I think Stonnie Dennis is a great dog trainer. He uses $7 English show leads and the occasional long line for 99% of his training.

Watch videos. Read books. Have fun with your dog and make baby steps towards your goals. Most of my "training" it's done off leash in some woods somewhere, playing with my dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I do know that Deja loves to play and work with me. But official Rally and obedience training sessions are just not her thing. She just doesn't look happy but more like "OK, I'll do it since you asked". I don't blame it on the trainers as I findt them pretty good. Maybe the OP's dog is like that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There is no point in being angry with the trainer. it's wasted energy. Move forward, learn to engage your dog and build that relationship.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I do know that Deja loves to play and work with me. But official Rally and obedience training sessions are just not her thing. She just doesn't look happy but more like "OK, I'll do it since you asked". I don't blame it on the trainers as I findt them pretty good. Maybe the OP's dog is like that.


Actually, when we do obedience training at home she is good and quick to learn! It really knocked my confidence with her the last few weeks but we're already getting back to a good place with lots of sits, stays etc


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> There is no point in being angry with the trainer. it's wasted energy. Move forward, learn to engage your dog and build that relationship.


That's a very fair point. Although it was bit of a jolt to get here, I've definitely learned a lot in a short space of time. Onwards and upwards


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

David Winners said:


> I'm hesitant to trash talk another trainer, though I totally see your point.
> 
> I rarely take private lesson clients without a set schedule that includes weeks of lessons. I have been where this trainer could be. Everything looks good after a couple lessons, while I'm there, and the moon is in the 4th house. Three weeks later, I get an angry call that "the dog pulled me up a tree and I had too have a pine cone removed from my spleen thanks to you and your terrible training."
> 
> ...


Sorry, I hope it didn't sound like I was saying everyone should pile on the trainer. Obviously I won't name them on here so that's just for me to know. As you have said before, it's very hard to judge based on a description on a forum post. It was just such a scary experience seeing an aggressive dog suddenly emerge where previously there had been a kind and gentle one! Your mind runs away to all kinds of terrible places, especially when kids are involved 

Anyway, it already feels like we're heading back in the right direction now and putting this chapter behind us. Fun and learning, just like it should be.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Well another successful walk today - Margot is doing so well, she's starting to self-correct on the slip lead already and it's taking very little action on the lead to get her to walk well when she tries to pull. It was home time for the kids at the local school this afternoon (where my kids go, although she didn't see them) so she found that part of the walk difficult with the distraction of the kids but 95% of it was a dream! I would never have believed it a week ago! Guess that's the end of this thread, I now know what was going on with my GSD! 👏 😃


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## kal-El’s Mom (Feb 1, 2021)

turntableslave said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read my post. We have a 15-month-old GSD, Margot, who seems to be getting worse in terms of behaviour. She has recently been spayed but we're not sure this has anything to do with it. A long story short:
> 
> ...


****Off Leash K9 Training. They are nation wide. I have a 2 year old German Shepherd that was very reactive. Best decision I ever made was their Board & Train.


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## Zeemanmp (Feb 8, 2016)

turntableslave said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read my post. We have a 15-month-old GSD, Margot, who seems to be getting worse in terms of behaviour. She has recently been spayed but we're not sure this has anything to do with it. A long story short:
> 
> ...


I’m afraid I don’t have an answer but I will share that we had a similar experience when we had our gsd spayed. She was about to go into her 2nd cycle so I’m guessing she was about 18 mo. We saw a dramatic change in her behavior immediately. She became very fearful and jumpy when we took her out. She would bark at people and dogs where she hadn’t before. She also shows fear at the vets office. Now I think highly of this vet or I wouldn’t go there but I do think she now associates him with a bad experience. I am sorry to say that she is almost 6 yrs. now and it hasn’t gotten much better. I have also taken her to training ( several obedience classes and agility).


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## Zeemanmp (Feb 8, 2016)

I’m afraid I don’t have an answer but I will share that we had a similar experience when we had our gsd spayed. She was about to go into her 2nd cycle so I’m guessing she was about 18 mo. We saw a dramatic change in her behavior immediately. She became very fearful and jumpy when we took her out. She would bark at people and dogs where she hadn’t before. She also shows fear at the vets office. Now I think highly of this vet or I wouldn’t go there but I do think she now associates him with a bad experience. I am sorry to say that she is almost 6 yrs. now and it hasn’t gotten much better. I have taken her to training ( several obedience classes and agility)


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## Hamish2 (Oct 14, 2021)

ksotto333 said:


> So to me a correction is a quick collar pop whether flat or prong. To clarify for the OP, (and me) is that what you all are referring to?


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

turntableslave said:


> I feel a bit sick tbh


I'm going to add my 2 cents, FWIW, because I am really feeling for you, & relating as well. 

Maggie was my 1st GSD, and I was her 3d owner. She was from a shelter, and I had taken her home on faith that the shelter knew what they were doing when they thought she would work out with me. 

I am in my 70s, and Maggie is an extreme puller & had pulled me to the ground 2 times. I was worried I would break a limb & then we would both be out of luck.

The turnaround started when a volunteer from a local GSD rescue agreed to spend the day observing the pair of us. Long story short, after spending several hours in my home & on a long walk together, she reassured me in all the ways I needed - pointing out numerous really good things about her.
This volunteer even assured me that if something did happen to me that she would see to it that Maggie found a good home. I could tell by the way she said, "in a heartbeat", that she thought Maggie was wonderful 💕. She also gave me a sturdy halter with front clip, with heavy-duty leash. 

Once I was convinced that I was not being criminally reckless for choosing the challenge of Maggie, I was able to say to myself, "she's a dog, a normal dog with certain qualities like strength, & loving to bite & chase things, like all GSDs" -- then I was able to pay attention to HER, learn to trust her & know her specific ways of communicating.

Looking at your photo, and the way your dog is looking at you with that love & eagerness to please - I am rooting for you both.
Finding the right person (volunteer, trainer, self-designated trainer...) seems to be hit-or-miss. I do notice that like all "experts" they may be too invested in their way being right, making you &/or your dog the problem. It sounds like your 1st trainer was a miss, & I'm glad you have other options.
By the way I have a dear friend who lives in Newcastle-under-Lyme


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## Hamish2 (Oct 14, 2021)

Your 15 month old adolescent GSD attempted to bite a child. If you are knowledgeable about dogs then you know that social and sexual maturity occurs between 18-24 months. Since your dog has been spayed sexual maturity is a non issue however, you were advised to treat the threat as a bite and correct accordingly. As far as I'm concerned the only correction for a bite is an immediate visit to your vet and a quick and painless shot of pink fluid. I tolerate quite a bit from my dogs under no circumstances would I ever tolerate a bite to a person.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Hamish2 you just posted in another thread that you have an uncontrollable biter.There are many successful methods in the puppy sub forum that would help you w when you get time to browse through them.Start a new thread and share some pictures of your little land shark.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

Well. That escalated quickly  

@Cigar, thank you for your kind post. I am pleased to say that Margot is doing really well with the change of approach. There is still stuff to work on, of course, but the worries of last week are greatly reduced. She's a happy dog again!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Hamish2 said:


> Your 15 month old adolescent GSD attempted to bite a child. If you are knowledgeable about dogs then you know that social and sexual maturity occurs between 18-24 months. Since your dog has been spayed sexual maturity is a non issue however, you were advised to treat the threat as a bite and correct accordingly. As far as I'm concerned the only correction for a bite is an immediate visit to your vet and a quick and painless shot of pink fluid. I tolerate quite a bit from my dogs under no circumstances would I ever tolerate a bite to a person.


Personally, I wouldn't want to have a GSD that wouldn't bite someone given reasonable provocation! Maybe you should look into another breed...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Hamish2 said:


> Your 15 month old adolescent GSD attempted to bite a child. If you are knowledgeable about dogs then you know that social and sexual maturity occurs between 18-24 months. Since your dog has been spayed sexual maturity is a non issue however, you were advised to treat the threat as a bite and correct accordingly. As far as I'm concerned the only correction for a bite is an immediate visit to your vet and a quick and painless shot of pink fluid. I tolerate quite a bit from my dogs under no circumstances would I ever tolerate a bite to a person.


You have an 8 month old still biting people. I suggest you read more than you than offer advice, particularly about putting dogs down. 

The GSD is a breed with aggression and the willingness and ability to fight a grown man. If you don't want that quality in a dog, there are plenty of breeds out there that don't pose the same training challenges.

Before you suggest that people start killing their dogs, I think you should make an attempt at educating yourself about the breed.


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## Maxine222 (May 25, 2020)

turntableslave said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to read my post. We have a 15-month-old GSD, Margot, who seems to be getting worse in terms of behaviour. She has recently been spayed but we're not sure this has anything to do with it. A long story short:
> 
> ...


Hi! Margot is a beauty Yes, also teenager. Thinking she has to do her job to protect on the lead especially. I have a GSD named Maxine 7 yrs old now. Sounds just like my girl. Head strong! So off lead she is much better. But lets face it, she has to be on lead at times. My dog wear s a harness I use in the car and also for walking, that clips under her lower neck area, so she cannot pull me. Give me better control. if Margot can't pass people or dogs don't say anything, just change direction or go up someone s driveway she will get better in time with CONSISTANCY always. Kind words and confidence. she will look for you to call the shots. Now we have 8 grandchildren LOL, Whenever they come over I tell her by name who is coming over so she KNOWS who will be pulling up the driveway. YES she knows what to do looks out the door wagging her tail and whimpering. YES she goes crazy to get out when they arrive. I open the door and she slobbers kisses all over them. Youngest is 2 and YES I am always with my kiddos AND Maxine. Cause 2yr old kids fall alot and sometimes on my dog, which she has learned happens. All is good shell remove herself from the room of lay down on the floor asking for more feet to step into her! 
WITH STRANGERS that approach our door or who visit etc.... I tell her John is coming over! John is here! She'll wait, BARK like nuts till she gets to them smells them and then they can come into the house. I will tell guests coming over not to look at her or pet her. German Shepherds want people to look at them. So the more they are ignored they more curious they will be and more respectful. It works for us well. Maxine really loves it when she is told company is coming. Very nosey dog. Use same Consistent language She'll understand. 
Barking at window and door at people walking by.... As soon as I hear her do this I tell her OK OK THANK YOU ! THANK YOU! MAXINE! ok THANK YOU. 👍 worked I see what she is looking at and acknowledge the situation. OR in beginning if she got worse I gently told her ' IN THE KITCHEN ', and put her behind a gate in the kitchen hall ( Not As Punishment) until she was calm. I say good calm let her out. had to do only a few times. I looked at a utube video of this. It worked for us. No longer have to put in the kitchen. Just say THANK YOU MAXINE. She did her job letting us know she sees someone or something. Maxine will always be the dog she is today and I don't expect that to change.

As for trainers.... I had many for her. One let a dog go after her, one was too hard on her others really don't know this breed well enough. Smart enough to learn from you. Don't feel bad or give up, beat yourself up. Just keep positive and remove your dog from triggers you think you need to work on. Then try again. German Shepherd dogs always need their máster to protect them. And don't feel bad to tell people, Pls don't pet my dog, if Margot feels uncomfortable. also this is our 3rd Shepherd and Maxine has been the challenge, but so worth it! Good luck!


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## markhenley (Apr 23, 2018)

turntableslave said:


> Hi all,
> The final straw came this afternoon when some friends with a small child called - Margot has met this child before in the house and has been absolutely fine with her. Today, with the slip lead on, she lunged towards her and very nearly bit her.


I've read through all of these posts and there are some great comments and advice. 

I would add one more item. It's going to sound silly, but I put a lot of effort into how I feed my dogs. In the wild, the leader dictates who eats and when. Anytime I'm working with a dog that is showing aggression, especially trying to bite, I start working on impulse control, and meal time is the best time to do that. I put the food down and do not let the dog touch it, maybe for several minutes. Then I give them a break command. 

This has a psychological effect on dogs. You don't want to tease them. You want them to know that YOU control the resources. If you just give the food out, willnilly, the dog probably doesn't understand that you are controlling that resource. 

I also play impulse control games. So I'll hold food out and not give it to them until they look at me. Then I mark it, and reward. Again, it tells the dog that you control resources. Dogs care a lot about who controls the food.


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