# Sticky  Advice on giving and taking advice



## NancyJ

Recently there have been a number of threads where advice has been given that is well above and beyond people simply sharing their own experiences......... 

Internet forums are great places to meet people and exchange ideas. Sometimes, however, advice is given that is just plain wrong or downright dangerous. As _moderators_, our job is not to ensure the quality and accuracy of the advice people give each other. As _forum members_, we put in our own two cents when we agree or disagree just like everyone else on the board [and try to keep the place clean-cut and polite]

That said, here are some considerations when evaluating the advice of a poster or when you give advice.

You should know your source. Everyone can be an "expert" on the internet and people are sometimes not honest about their own lack of experience or knowledge. Often, this is not intentional deception but folks simply not realizing their own limitations. We all go through phases where first we know _nothing_, then we know _everything_, then we realize we _really_ don't know very much, and _finally_ we realize we do know more than we thought we knew.

If someone is an excellent writer, heor she may confound you with his/her "knowledge" while taking you down a wrong and possibly dangerous path. Often the most knowledgeable folks have the least to say as they are not interested in hearing themselves talk. Often the least knowledgeable want to make sure you know just how much they know and care more about their own ego than you or your dog.

Ideally, someone giving advice (as opposed to someone sharing their own personal experiences and opinions) should have a real name and verifiable credentials and not stand as an anonymous person.

Time on the board and number of posts do not make an expert.

It is always nice when people give information to back up their assertions, such as links to journal or legitimate magazine articles. And even linked information, such as blogsites etc., can be fraught with errors.

Look for some level of consensus, particularly if an idea seems "out there". It IS true that some of the great ideas of all time are outside of the norm, but most of the paths we go down with training and feeding and caring for dogs are pretty well traveled. Just realize when something is "out there" and do more research on your own to back it up. You are responsible for deciding if the advice you have been given is credible.

When you are dealing with a medical issue, especially an urgent one, SEE A VET. When you are dealing with a serious temperament issue, GET TO A TRAINER. Use the board to help you get ideas and suggestions for selecting these folks and for questions to raise as you talk with them, but go to someone who can actually see your dog, diagnose the problem and help you fix it.

When you are giving advice, please just give it and let others give theirs. The board is not a pulpit for people to preach their ideas alone to the exclusion of others but a place for sharing of ideas. Please also don't jump on new members for not knowing everything, including how to spell "shepherd". People come here to get advice and not be insulted.

It is also very sad when a thread goes down the drain because a "war" between two posters diverts attention from the original post and becomes about the two arguing personalities. 

If we can check out egos at the door, we might realize that we ALL have things we can share and things we can learn here. 
__________________


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## Shade

:thumbup:


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## KatsMuse

I agree with this as well....


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## JakodaCD OA

excellent post I think EVERYONE should read this


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## TrickyShepherd

Great post!


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## stealthq

This post really ought to be a sticky.


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## Freestep

What'd I miss?


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## msvette2u

.............post removed....


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## qbchottu

.............post removed....


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## Wolfgeist

When it comes to taking advice one should absolutely cross-reference, research and ask questions before putting it to use. Develop your own opinion.

For giving advice, supply the person with evidence and further reading materials to support your advice. Otherwise, state your opinion as exactly that: opinion, not fact.

Both sides must be respectful, calm, and logical.


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## Scarlettsmom

Wolfgeist said:


> Both sides must be respectful, calm, and logical.


 
That is where the wheels seem to come off the cart in some of the threads.


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## hunterisgreat

As Platos's Socrates said: τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ' οὗτος μὲν οἴεται τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οὄιμαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μή οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι


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## Kyleigh

great thread Jocoyn, love the post Hunterisgreat - it's all gibberish, until it makes sense!


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## Sunflowers

hunterisgreat said:


> As Platos's Socrates said: τούτου μὲν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐγὼ σοφώτερός εἰμι· κινδυνεύει μὲν γὰρ ἡμῶν οὐδέτερος οὐδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν εἰδέναι, ἀλλ' οὗτος μὲν οἴεται τι εἰδέναι οὐκ εἰδώς, ἐγὼ δέ, ὥσπερ οὖν οὐκ οἶδα, οὐδὲ οὄιμαι· ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μή οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰδέναι


 I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed him.

When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and still wiser by himself; and thereupon I tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me.

So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good. I am better off than he is,—for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows; I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him. 



Is that it?


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## hunterisgreat

Sunflowers said:


> I went to one who had the reputation of wisdom, and observed him.
> 
> When I began to talk with him, I could not help thinking that he was not really wise, although he was thought wise by many, and still wiser by himself; and thereupon I tried to explain to him that he thought himself wise, but was not really wise; and the consequence was that he hated me, and his enmity was shared by several who were present and heard me.
> 
> So I left him, saying to myself, as I went away: Well, although I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good. I am better off than he is,—for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows; I neither know nor think that I know. In this latter particular, then, I seem to have slightly the advantage of him.
> 
> Is that it?


My greek is pretty rusty, but yes it is basically that... Really the last paragraph.

It was *supposed to be* one of those, folks who would benefit from the quote will figure it out themselves, those that wouldn't be bothered to research it would have read and not understood, dismiss as philosophical nonsense, or otherwise been of no use, type of posts... Cryptic by design lol. Oh well


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## KayleeGSD

Excellent post! I agree everyone should read this!


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## kristinamaria

very nice post..everyone need to reed this post.


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## wolfstraum

This is a great piece of advice and should be pinned...

It also goes for breeder references - sometimes I shudder when I see posts pushing breeders - pretty photos and expensive websites do not make great breeders

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair

It is. 

Agree on the posts pushing breeders, same with good breeders who may have bad websites, but as we have people of all ages and experience levels participating on here I don't know what can be done about it.



wolfstraum said:


> This is a great piece of advice *and should be pinned...*
> 
> It also goes for breeder references - sometimes I shudder when I see posts pushing breeders - pretty photos and expensive websites do not make great breeders
> 
> Lee


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## VTGirlT

Thanks for posting jocoyn. I wish i had the ability to read it before i started on this forums. I think it would have helped me in lots of ways.


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## SummerGSDLover

:thumbup:

*-*Summer*-*


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## Jax08

Bumping this up...

It goes for all topics.


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## Juliem24

Wait, wait...so if I read it on the Internet, there's a possibility that it's NOT true?


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## glowingtoadfly

You can press the ignore button.


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## Hineni7

If you have an issue with him pm him, but seriously, relax... You have opinions like everyone else, threads are moderated as they are seen; moderators aren't paid and have a thankless job (thank you moderators!  ) and take abuse they don't deserve. You obviously have an issue with another member, but this isn't the thread (nor is there a thread for that purpose), you just end up getting yourself moderated... 

I would add a thought on advice... Text is very cold, there I no emotion until the reader inflicts it upon themselves, depending upon their mood this can be good or bad. If you think something was offensive, leave it, come back to it later and reread, often it will be viewed in a different light and perhaps good gleamed.... Finding advice or things that work for you does not always mean that everything that doesn't conform to your ideas is wrong or obsolete. Keeping an open mind (looking for perspective) can often help in other ways, even if primary opinions differ (like ideas of things done differently but implemented in another situation)  Keeping things civil and conversations moving in a friendly way benefits everyone


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## Stonevintage

_"Ideally, someone giving advice (as opposed to someone sharing their own personal experiences and opinions) should have a real name and verifiable credentials and not stand as an anonymous person".
_
Excellent post, thank you. It seems that sometimes, the more experienced but un-credentialed folks (although well meaning) forget that that there is usually more than one way to achieve a goal. They have their ways of caring for and training their GSD's, but their way is only one of many. 

I too have been alarmed at some of the "diagnosis" posts. For many GSD owners, vet bills are a consideration and they may be prone to taking advise here and not consulting a Vet as soon as they should. I have also seen posts questioning a Vet's diagnosis, causing un-necessary additional testing and expense to the poster with the problem.

All said, this site is the best resource for basic information on the GSD that I have found. Thanks moderators - for moderating!


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## cammo

I'm a guy, so my ability to take advice rivals my ability to pick up a map and read it when I'm lost


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## Buckelke

I joined the group because I was concerned about Elke's squealing. You were all very nice about her 'talking'. I felt better knowing it was somewhat normal behavior. Thank you. But I stayed because you are all so nice and earnestly helpful. I appreciate that and the wisdom of the moderators. Thank you.

BTW, the squealing stopped when we lost Buck but has resumed with Duke in the pack. I missed it.


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## islanddog

Beautifully written post on advice. I'm back from trying to find something similar on elsewhere, and just want to say this is a very socially cohesive group, and I see the flow of posts often goes as it should, people debate, flesh out their words, not too much arguing. 
As an aside, I clicked this post as it reminded me of breaking my own rule (never give unsolicited advice) when someone's large strong impulsive adolescent pup popped his prong just outside of the dog park yesterday (I train my own dog outside of the dog park). They never did manage to get the prong back on the dog while the dog ran up to several leashed dogs (not mine, I did well-practiced evasive manoevres) and resolved only by letting him in the dog park. Since my guy was wearing a prong with a back-up clip, yes, I stepped in and asked an adult if she minded some advice. Somehow I managed to come off as kind and helpful rather than rude and intrusive and got thanked for the tip. 
This has me re-thinking the unsolicited advice rule. On the otherhand, it does get tiresome when people say, 'have you tried' for the millionth time on a been there done that issue.


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## Kathrynil

Great and helpful post, especially to the more naive of forum members like me. Thanks!


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## Hiningla

Excellent post with great ideas, thank you for sharing this post, every need to read this.


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## Bentwings1

NancyJ said:


> Recently there have been a number of threads where advice has been given that is well above and beyond people simply sharing their own experiences.........
> 
> Internet forums are great places to meet people and exchange ideas. Sometimes, however, advice is given that is just plain wrong or downright dangerous. As _moderators_, our job is not to ensure the quality and accuracy of the advice people give each other. As _forum members_, we put in our own two cents when we agree or disagree just like everyone else on the board [and try to keep the place clean-cut and polite]
> 
> That said, here are some considerations when evaluating the advice of a poster or when you give advice.
> 
> You should know your source. Everyone can be an "expert" on the internet and people are sometimes not honest about their own lack of experience or knowledge. Often, this is not intentional deception but folks simply not realizing their own limitations. We all go through phases where first we know _nothing_, then we know _everything_, then we realize we _really_ don't know very much, and _finally_ we realize we do know more than we thought we knew.
> 
> If someone is an excellent writer, heor she may confound you with his/her "knowledge" while taking you down a wrong and possibly dangerous path. Often the most knowledgeable folks have the least to say as they are not interested in hearing themselves talk. Often the least knowledgeable want to make sure you know just how much they know and care more about their own ego than you or your dog.
> 
> Ideally, someone giving advice (as opposed to someone sharing their own personal experiences and opinions) should have a real name and verifiable credentials and not stand as an anonymous person.
> 
> Time on the board and number of posts do not make an expert.
> 
> It is always nice when people give information to back up their assertions, such as links to journal or legitimate magazine articles. And even linked information, such as blogsites etc., can be fraught with errors.
> 
> Look for some level of consensus, particularly if an idea seems "out there". It IS true that some of the great ideas of all time are outside of the norm, but most of the paths we go down with training and feeding and caring for dogs are pretty well traveled. Just realize when something is "out there" and do more research on your own to back it up. You are responsible for deciding if the advice you have been given is credible.
> 
> When you are dealing with a medical issue, especially an urgent one, SEE A VET. When you are dealing with a serious temperament issue, GET TO A TRAINER. Use the board to help you get ideas and suggestions for selecting these folks and for questions to raise as you talk with them, but go to someone who can actually see your dog, diagnose the problem and help you fix it.
> 
> When you are giving advice, please just give it and let others give theirs. The board is not a pulpit for people to preach their ideas alone to the exclusion of others but a place for sharing of ideas. Please also don't jump on new members for not knowing everything, including how to spell "shepherd". People come here to get advice and not be insulted.
> 
> It is also very sad when a thread goes down the drain because a "war" between two posters diverts attention from the original post and becomes about the two arguing personalities.
> 
> If we can check out egos at the door, we might realize that we ALL have things we can share and things we can learn here.
> *__*


 often people seek dog or pet advice on the internet looking for a “ push button fix” for problems or “how to do something” most are simple too lazy or irresponsible to simply go to training classes . Not all are great but it’s a start . I get asked question about guard dogs and protection training I no longer even respond excep to sport training if I YHINK I can help . Other wise I just press delete . I also get very hard nosed about any kind of proposed animal fighting I think I’ve been banned from about half a dozen sites for inappropriate comments . Given a chance I’ll also fire back at administrators for even allowing the question to begin with . I love dogs and cats . I’ve trained to very high levels . I even have trained a non purring cat to purr with gentle handling . I do not approv of mixing breeds in hopes of creating a “ designer pet”! There are enough back yard breeders I’m nota person trained in genetics but I do have respect for those who have this. I can only think of a few really well thought out genetic built dogs and cats . Our beloved GSD are really a created dog but the actual process was carefully planned snd proven as it developed by analysis of characteristics . We see this in Schutzhund sport dogs and IPO DOGS ADD RING SPORTS . You can see results of this then you look at “ doodles” the guy that introduced this wrote that it was the biggest mistake he ever made 
My own K 9 GSD was ast German probably illegally smuggled . I had the pleasure of training with all of his litter in K 9 training all became certified K 9 rated . I can’t even put a number on how difficult the training was . These were rated from the time they arrived atvtge field or training center until they were on the way home just the legal qualifications were hard we as trainers got instruction from the legal community as to what was ok and what was not and even the intensity . When to stop when to continue . I could never do it again at this age but I still remember issues we had to deal with . I had many note books full of training notes I even have a current note book for training my kitty she does not eat people food of any kind other than a tiny nibble thing that can take several minutes to eat . I YHINK it would be easier to train a fish she knows her food and water dishes and getting loving pets those are rewards . 
Anyway. Need to get off the stand and read more ofvthe site


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## Jax08

this thread is 10 years old....but since it came up, I saw this on facebook just yesterday


"The biggest mistake dog trainers make that keeps them struggling for YEARS.
In martial arts, we call this learning from white belts.
You see, white belts LOVE to teach.
They see a new technique and get all excited.
The very next day you will see them trying to teach it to whoever will listen.
Usually, someone who has been training a few days less than them.
The black belts watch and laugh.
The technique is all screwed up.
So many critical details are missing.
Some of these white belts make Youtube videos and social media posts showing this butchered technique they learned 12 hours ago and have never done correctly in real life ONCE.
But to the average person who doesn't know any better... they look like a star.
They never post video of themselves getting destroyed by the black belts who actually know and have practiced and mastered the REAL technique with all the correct details.
The great thing about martial arts and fighting is that at least everyone in the school KNOWS.
They know who the novices are and who the real deal fighters are.
They go on the mat and prove it.
In dog training... this never happens.
There is no decisive fight.
Just white belts teaching.
Making stuff up.
My advice is to find out who the TRUE masters are and learn directly from them.
This is very difficult because so much nonsense taught by white belts has become popular and accepted.
One clue is the real masters don't do things like everyone else.
They are very different.
And they are not running around trying to teach anyone who will listen.
They know their worth.
But be careful... the con men play the, "I know my worth game" and charge ridiculous fees for their white belt gibberish.
Expensive does not equal knowledge and skill.
And real world-class knowledge and skill does not come cheap, either.
The biggest skill I developed in my dog training journey was the ability to tell the real masters from the white belts.
Figure that out and the rest will come.
It will end the frustration."

~Matt Welch


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