# Looking for West/DDR mix breeder (Canada/Germany)



## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

Who knew the search for finding a good gsd breeder would be so difficult? The more I get into the research the harder it gets to trust a breeder, lol.
Anyways first post here and hopefully many more to follow when I add a new member to the family.
I am in my 30s/single/active located in Ontario, Canada and trying to find a legitimate breeder that does West German and DDR mix or pure DDRs (I don’t know if pure ddrs even exist anymore ?). Ideally, I would like a gsd with no back slope and red/black pigmented coat but definitely health and temperament will come before looks/color. I am NOT looking for a family pet to show off at the park but more of a partner/protector type dog.
So my first question is; are you guys familiar with any Canadian breeders that actually follows SV rules and can show proof of doing so? Or a breeder with a current imported DDR stud? Not just a paragraph saying basically we try to follow…. 
If yes I would appreciate it if you share their contact info with me.
Secondly if anyone here actually imported a gsd from Germany themselves please share your experience with me. Who are they? What made you decide to work with them.
Sorry about the essay, I tried really hard to keep it short lol. I appreciate any help I could get


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nickgsd said:


> Who knew the search for finding a good gsd breeder would be so difficult? The more I get into the research the harder it gets to trust a breeder, lol.
> Anyways first post here and hopefully many more to follow when I add a new member to the family.
> I am in my 30s/single/active located in Ontario, Canada and trying to find a legitimate breeder that does West German and DDR mix or pure DDRs (I don’t know if pure ddrs even exist anymore ?). Ideally, I would like a gsd with no back slope and red/black pigmented coat but definitely health and temperament will come before looks/color. I am NOT looking for a family pet to show off at the park but more of a partner/protector type dog.
> So my first question is; are you guys familiar with any Canadian breeders that actually follows SV rules and can show proof of doing so? Or a breeder with a current imported DDR stud? Not just a paragraph saying basically we try to follow….
> ...


It is short! You should see some of the posts!

Can you elaborate on what you are looking for in a dog? A hiking/camping buddy? Are you into dog sports? Or showing? We have some forum members that are in Ontario and familiar with breeders here.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

If you want a breeder that follows and breeds to SV standards and ideally want a Black and Red, then you are essentially asking for a WGSL but want a DDR mixed in there for protection purposes, from the way I'm reading it. 

All GSD's have a slope. Anyone who tries to tell you differently does not know the breed. The term "straight back" is not used by legitimate breeders because they understand German Shepherd structure and anatomy. There will always be angulation in the croup, and because GSDs are stacked in a 3 point stack, there will always be a slope depending on the angulation in the back foot (how close the hock comes to touching the ground). There are some dogs that are bred to have a very severe slope, and I think that's what you are trying to avoid. But it's not easy to simply tell back structure by a 3 point stacked photo and deem a dog "not straight backed" when you're new to the breed - this is the exact same dog in different stack positions:











If you are looking for a true protection dog, then you are looking at $$$. But if you're looking for a deterrent, you don't need a DDR. Every GSD is a great deterrent in not only looks, but their big deep barks. My girl has sent people screaming just by walking by, and she's a huge sweet heart. But she also has a menacing bark, and if I take her into a store, people will literally walk the store peripherals to stay away from her. 

Importing from Germany without having close contacts to the breeders there can also be a gamble. There are so many incredible breeders in Canada and the US that will have what you're looking for, I promise. Importing is rarely the answer unless you have some solid connections to take advantage of to begin with.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Hey, there! Welcome to the search! Unfortunately, there are more poor breeders out there than quality ethical ones. So sometimes the search can get a bit discouraging, but they are out there! 

First and foremost, what are you looking to do with your dog and why do you want a DDR and/or West German Working line as opposed to another line? Each line has their differences, positives and negatives. While there are a few breeders out there who are working to preserve the DDR lines, there are not a lot. And many of them tend to mix their DDR lines with Czech and West German lines.

As far as breeders with some solid DDR dogs who breed to standard, Weberhaus and SentinelHarts come to mind. Though, I don't know if you will find a full DDR breeding from either. I'm actually bringing home a Weberhaus pup later this year. 

Regarding the sloped back comment, Femfa is correct. The SV standard actually calls for some angulation in the dog and no well bred GSD will be without angulation. The appearance of a "slope" is usually amplified by the 3 point show stack that you see many GSDs in for photos, but every GSD should have some measure of angulation due to length of the back legs and croup, etc. 

Happy searching!

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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What is it about the DDR lines that appeals to you? Also, I'd say the SV has done more harm to the breed than good.


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## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> It is short! You should see some of the posts!
> 
> Can you elaborate on what you are looking for in a dog? A hiking/camping buddy? Are you into dog sports? Or showing? We have some forum members that are in Ontario and familiar with breeders here.



I am trying to read as many articles as I can right now. I need to start visiting breeders to actually see the lines in person as appose to just pictures.

I mainly go camping alone in the bush and I want some help/protection from predators. Secondly house protection. At this time the reason I am interested in adopting is not showing/sports but I really don't know how involved I might become with dog sports in the future. thx


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## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

Femfa said:


> If you want a breeder that follows and breeds to SV standards and ideally want a Black and Red, then you are essentially asking for a WGSL but want a DDR mixed in there for protection purposes, from the way I'm reading it.
> 
> All GSD's have a slope. Anyone who tries to tell you differently does not know the breed. The term "straight back" is not used by legitimate breeders because they understand German Shepherd structure and anatomy. There will always be angulation in the croup, and because GSDs are stacked in a 3 point stack, there will always be a slope depending on the angulation in the back foot (how close the hock comes to touching the ground). There are some dogs that are bred to have a very severe slope, and I think that's what you are trying to avoid. But it's not easy to simply tell back structure by a 3 point stacked photo and deem a dog "not straight backed" when you're new to the breed - this is the exact same dog in different stack positions:
> 
> ...



I appreciate the informative reply. It helped me put things in perspective. You are correct, in the beginning I was purely interested in DDRs based on what I read about structure and temperament. The more research I did online it seemed to me that DDR dogs in north America are mostly a mix with eastern European countries. Therefore I though if I am going to get mix why not do it with WG.


Based on looking at the picture in your reply, to my inexperienced eye I would definitely say that these are two different dogs. I would want to stay away from the first but the second dog in picture is absolutely what I am looking for in a ddr (very handsome). If I figure out how to edit my op I will change no slope to slight/moderate slope.


And yes unfortunately money is a factor for me that’s why I have to stay away from breeders that sell trained protection dogs. I understand what you mean about the bark. Not to be disrespectful to you in anyway and I am not saying your dog just has a loud bark but the reason I started to like ddrs in the first place was that I want a dog that doesn't just talk the talk  If ever get into trouble with bear lets say I want backup lol.

Regarding importation from Germany, that’s exactly why I asked. Maybe someone here had a good experience with a breeder and can refer me to them. thx


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## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

kimbale said:


> Hey, there! Welcome to the search! Unfortunately, there are more poor breeders out there than quality ethical ones. So sometimes the search can get a bit discouraging, but they are out there!
> 
> First and foremost, what are you looking to do with your dog and why do you want a DDR and/or West German Working line as opposed to another line? Each line has their differences, positives and negatives. While there are a few breeders out there who are working to preserve the DDR lines, there are not a lot. And many of them tend to mix their DDR lines with Czech and West German lines.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply and welcome. That’s what I figured. DDRs are mostly a mix and not just Czech sometimes (other lesser known eastern European countries)
I am not pretending to be an expert in anyway. Everything I know is from the internet and people I talked to. I can relate to the description of what a DDR dog is and I understand you might be able to find similar dogs that are WGSL or WGWL. But I must start somewhere you know. If I keep all the options open I will never get to adopt a dog. If I am going to get a dog in Canada I feel like getting a DDR/WG might be my best option. But its just a feeling and I wouldn’t know for sure until I visit some reputable breeders. I am looking for legitimate WG or DDR breeders at the moment so I can educate myself more.
I am very jealous and happy for you at the same time. Hopefully I will be in your shoes soon with a new pup. Thanks for the recommendations. I will look into them.


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## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What is it about the DDR lines that appeals to you? Also, I'd say the SV has done more harm to the breed than good.



From my INTERNET research; I like the temperament, boxier head, strong and leaner frame. I appreciate the reasoning behind the breeds origins as appose to lets say king shepherd breeders. Regarding American or German guidelines, I am not educated enough to start a friendly argument. But I have decided if I’m going to get a WG I rather go by SV certifications. I understand peoples intention is to help me with my breed choice when they ask why. But with all do respect this post is not about me talking about my reasoning behind my decision to adopt which breed. I simply wanted to rely on this forums knowledge to find legitimate breeders and stay away from puppy factories. After I find reputable breeders both WGWL/DDR and get to spend time with their dogs, I will make final decision on which breed suites me more or even if I am personally capable of handling them. thx


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

So, there's a lot going on in your replies. First and foremost, DDR is not referring to a breed of dog but to a line of German Shepherds. The DDR lines trace back to German Shepherds that were bred and worked in East Germany while the Berlin Wall was up. The wall divided Germany into East and West. DDR German Shepherds were being bred and used in East Germany and West German Working Line German Shepherds were being bred and used in West Germany. This is a simplified explanation, as it was a bit more complex than this, but this is the basics of it.

DDR, West German Working line and Czech are all just different types of working line German Shepherds. They are separate lines, not separate breeds. And many breeders today tend to mix lines (such as DDR x Czech, or DDR x West German) in order to get the best of both lines and expand their gene pools.

It sounds like what you want is a solid, level headed working line German Shepherd with a good temperment. I wouldn't worry so much about DDR vs. West German vs. Czech at this point. Just worry about finding a good breeder who breeds working lines and work to learn a lot more about the breed as you research.

As for DDR dogs "walking the walk," they can actually sometimes be a bit softer than the other lines and can take longer to mature. I'm no expert on those lines, so I'd recommend you talk to someone who really understands the Eastern lines, but this is what I have been told. Breeders like to mix in Czech and West German lines to harden the dogs up a bit.

Definitely do some more research, if you have access to an IPO club or a breed club in your area go out to visit and chat with people. And focus more on finding a good working line breeder as opposed to a DDR or West German breeder. You have to be careful about what you read online. Just go talk to those with experience and read up on the forums here.

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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't think a GSD was ever meant to be able to take on a bear. 

Honestly I think you'd be better off with a livestock guarding breed or an Akita if you really want a dog that be a real deterrent to large predators


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nickgsd said:


> I am trying to read as many articles as I can right now. I need to start visiting breeders to actually see the lines in person as appose to just pictures.
> 
> I mainly go camping alone in the bush and I want some help/protection from predators. Secondly house protection. At this time the reason I am interested in adopting is not showing/sports but I really don't know how involved I might become with dog sports in the future. thx


Ok. I will let others address most other things you mentioned but as far as what you are looking for in a dog, when you find a breeder be very clear that you are looking for an active companion dog. In Ontario there are a few breeders, I know none of them personally. Check out German Shepherd Breeders on FB. It's a group made up mostly of breeders and they are usually cool about recommendations. 
DDR is/was a line within the breed, not a separate breed. I will give you a rough breakdown, that I am sure someone will correct. The breed is split into Show line or SL and Working line or WL. Show line generally refers to the West German SL. There is also the American show line which is effectively yet another split. 
Working line is comprised of the DDR, Czech and West German WL. In most cases WL breeders use a combo of the lines although there are still some "pure" lines being preserved. For the most part breeders pick sides so to speak and they are either WL breeders or SL breeders. And fair warning, most breeders playing the "pure DDR" card are all about marketing and could care less about the dogs. It has sadly become something of a gimmick, as I learned the hard way when trying to find a "replacement" for my big guy.
However, for kennel club purposes they are all German Shepherd Dogs. 

You do understand that these dogs will consume your life right? :grin2: We constantly have folks on here bemoaning the fact that they can no longer sleep in or have hour long showers. Kiss Sunday morning layabouts good bye and get a warm jacket and good boots! These dogs are 365 and they show no mercy. Good luck in your search.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Nickgsd said:


> Based on looking at the picture in your reply, to my inexperienced eye I would definitely say that these are two different dogs. I would want to stay away from the first but the second dog in picture is absolutely what I am looking for in a ddr (very handsome). If I figure out how to edit my op I will change no slope to slight/moderate slope.


These are photos of the same dog in different lighting conditions and standing differently. What femfa was saying was that in a stacked position, as in the first photo, there is a slope to the topline. But that same dog standing normally does not have a slope, as in the second photo. It's a function of the way the dog is posed. Legitimate breeders aren't going to be talking about sloped backs any more than they are about straight backs. Angulation, yes, but not slopes.


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## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> These are photos of the same dog in different lighting conditions and standing differently. What femfa was saying was that in a stacked position, as in the first photo, there is a slope to the topline. But that same dog standing normally does not have a slope, as in the second photo. It's a function of the way the dog is posed. Legitimate breeders aren't going to be talking about sloped backs any more than they are about straight backs. Angulation, yes, but not slopes.



I understood what femfa was saying . I was trying to be funny. Comedy aint my thing


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## Nickgsd (Jan 15, 2019)

I really do appreciate everyone's input. I guess I was so overwhelmed with the amount of gsd breeders, I just wanted someone to tell me who to choose.


Lines vs breeds got it.
slope vs angulation understood.


Regarding the bear comment that was me trying to imagine the scariest situation that can happen to me. I don't expect ANY breed of dog to deter a bear. But a brave dog will give you time to analyse and respond to any threat.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Totally understand. Its a ton of info to go through. Here is a start von tighe haus. Had a chat a while back. Ottawa area.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't like the term DDR lines, because there are so few true DDR lines and they really aren't that similar to the original good ones. They do not have a leaner frame and tend to have stronger bone and muscle mass. As for temperament, each dog is an individual and temperament will be largely determined by the parents more so than a dog being from DDR lines. IMO, King Shepherds are not really GSDs.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't like the term DDR lines, because there are so few true DDR lines and they really aren't that similar to the original good ones. They do not have a leaner frame and tend to have stronger bone and muscle mass. As for temperament, each dog is an individual and temperament will be largely determined by the parents more so than a dog being from DDR lines. IMO, King Shepherds are not really GSDs.


King Shepherds absolutely are not GSDs. They are a mix of GSD, Malamute and I think something else...they are glorified mutts. 

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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You might look at von Banach or some Czech breeders whose lines go back to some DDR dogs. It is very hard to find good so called DDR stock. Focusing more on what a breeder's breeding program is trying to produce will likely help you get the type of dog you want rather than pigeon holing the dog as West German, Belgian, Czech, Slovakian, DDR, etc. To do that, you need to educate yourself about the different traits GSDs can possess and then look for breedings likely to produce those traits. Weberhaus has a DDR stud. Alt-Ostland is another kennel. I am not vouching for their dogs, as I don't know them, but they do have modern DDR lines. Blackthorn GSDs have some DDR breeding stock too. Jinopo's lines go back to old DDR lines and old Czech lines. Schraderhaus is another DDR breeder.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

First off, welcome to the forums and the world of GSDs! It can be very overwhelming trying to take in as much info as you can. I’m hoping maybe I can help at least a little!

I am also a hiker and outdoor enthusiast. Having a dog (in my case dogs) along makes it so much more fun, and does add a level of security. That being said, while they most likely would be a deterrent, I would never count on a dog or even a pack of dogs to take down a bear. That is why I don’t go tromping around in the woods without my .40. Even though where I live there are just the shy black bears, they are numerous in these mountains and I just feel better taking the pistol along. If safety is a main concern, I’d put my faith in a firearm and have the dog for enjoyment of their company.

And with that being said, if you are not actively seeking a IPO or true protection dog you can certainly open up your options as far as other lines of GSD. In fact you would probably be happier, as working line dogs have some serious energy output. I have a six month old whose sire is a WGSL and dam a Czech/DDR, he is my first GSD and I couldn’t be happier with him. I’m sorry if I missed it, is this your first dog or just first GSD?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I did a DDR cross last year - a male with phenomenal tracking ability, super stable and good looking. Not a social dog, not a particularly affectionate dog and definitely NOT a soft dog...but not from the most common DDR lines around either. The dam was my HGH (sheep herding German style) titled female who is 25% each DDR, WGRWL, Czech and Belgian lines....

All the pups are very stable....DDR lines are slow to mature and this is evident in some of them. Some of the pups are more gregarious like their very very affectionate and social dam, the pup I kept for a while to raise was super social. All seem to show evidence of balance in prey and social/civil drives...look for Moms2GSD posts in the picture forum....Quinn is one of these pups. 

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have brought some old DDR lines into my west German working lines too. Brought a bit more in with my last breeding adding Lord and some more of the old Wölfendobel lines. Like Lee, I have found they bring excellent hunt/tracking drive, some aggression. I am considering crossing with a Slovak dog next. I have loved my west German working line dogs, but much of what I am seeing now is too much "all the same" and not what I want.
I do question breeders that are breeding "pure" this or "pure" that just as a selling point. I have seen too many from these programs that aren't even good dogs for pet homes.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

lhczth said:


> I have brought some old DDR lines into my west German working lines too. Brought a bit more in with my last breeding adding Lord and some more of the old Wölfendobel lines. Like Lee, I have found they bring excellent hunt/tracking drive, some aggression. I am considering crossing with a Slovak dog next. I have loved my west German working line dogs, but much of what I am seeing now is too much "all the same" and not what I want.
> I do question breeders that are breeding "pure" this or "pure" that just as a selling point. I have seen too many from these programs that aren't even good dogs for pet homes.



Have you seen the trailing videos that are posted by a member here (not sure if they are here or on my FB page) of a puppy from my R litter??? Linebred on a female of mine, so strong in the Lord backmassing - the natural talent and ability and hunt drive even astounds me and I expected it....

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I'll have to find it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Misty is Hineni7 here - she has a thread on Rayne (Hokhmah) in the SAR forum....but lots more on FB I think....I went for reinforcement of the hunt drive in the L's with a good solid credentialed SAR dog....had it already, but wanted to lock it in more....and I can't believe what this pup is doing! DDR/Lord and supporting cast!

Lee


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I haven't uploaded video here due to the length of time it takes to upload, but my Facebook page and the Von Wolfstraum Facebook page ha e videos of Hokhmah (Rayne Von Wolfstraum) Trailing.. She is ASTOUNDING! Truly a smart and talented tracker/trailer, she is multi discipline already at 18wks old.. Solid in HRD odor recognition and articles (including guns which her introduction was by searching them out, lol).. She is fun and I have to be sooo careful not to skip lessons key foundational lessons because she already seems to know them... ??????❤❤


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

How much can Lord "add" being so far back? Does his progeny possess and pass on his traits? Wouldnt his traits become watered down after a number of generations?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> How much can Lord "add" being so far back? Does his progeny possess and pass on his traits? Wouldnt his traits become watered down after a number of generations?


Its a matter of picking the right progeny so you maintain the traits. Its not an exact can't miss formula, you'll gain this or that and lessen something else, but as an end user, I just accept what is said about previous generations, especially that far back and concentrate on the temperaments of the breeding dogs. If the hunt drive is in those 2, it came down from that pedigree and hopefully into mine. It came into Lord from somewhere too.

People knock IPO and the SV, but I think more then any other breed I'm aware of, that system that's in place has given better odds of maintaining traits.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Its a matter of picking the right progeny so you maintain the traits. Its not an exact can't miss formula, you'll gain this or that and lessen something else, but as an end user, I just accept what is said about previous generations, especially that far back and concentrate on the temperaments of the breeding dogs. If the hunt drive is in those 2, it came down from that pedigree and hopefully into mine. It came into Lord from somewhere too.
> 
> People knock IPO and the SV, but I think more then any other breed I'm aware of, that system that's in place has given better odds of maintaining traits.


Thanks Steve. I'm just picking from the bits of info I get from this forum in trying to formulate a picture. Breeding for such specific traits sounds incredibly difficult. We hear how some dogs don't pass down traits well and others that do may have something you want less of and so forth. My friend breeds springers, for her it's mostly about appearance and she goes through a great deal of work selecting for just this. Add in the various drives or performance aspect into the mix and it sounds like the proverbial needle in the haystack in deciding breeding pairs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I’ve owned Lord granddaughter and different Lord grandson. I’ve bred the Lord granddaughter and raised and trained progeny from her. I expected and had some strong traits that I thought would come from Lord,( in conjunction with other dogs in pedigree); of course this could just be a coincidence but my experiences tell me it wasn’t. But I understand many not putting stock into past generations as opposed to parents in front of them.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I found this thread and it has a wealth of information on Lord and is helping me to better understand my question. 

https://www.germanshepherds.com/for.../148295-lord-vom-gleisdreieck-pedigree-3.html

My male has Lord, but he is a ways back. He also has a fading reverse mask.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Nigel said:


> How much can Lord "add" being so far back? Does his progeny possess and pass on his traits? Wouldnt his traits become watered down after a number of generations?



Look up the term "prepotent" - why do certain dogs (and horses!) become "famous" and sought after and cited over and over again even when they are long dead? Linebreeding and backmassing bring forward the stronger genetics and qualities that famous dogs were known to produce and why they are sought after. Yoshey, Crok and Asko v d Lutter are famous - and their genetics are still strong in both positive and negatives 3-7 generations out. Read pedigree analysis articles on Thoroughbred racehorses....there are certain physical aspects 8-10 generations out still obvious....the crooked front legs of Mr. P for example. 

When you start to see specific characteristics in pups that indicate the genetic influence of a dog not a parent, you are seeing prepotency....I am seeing it in my male Komet - he is producing his mother....a litter linebred on her, by him, is uncanny for it's resemblence to her....it will be interesting to see if it carries through a few more generations if I last that long!

Lee


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

Wolfstraum, you're right, in my horse world, we can look at many well bred horses and identify the ancestor from many

generations back; sometimes it's the movement, sometimes conformation and sometimes just outward looks.. Plus the value of most well bred horses is in what they produce or how well they re-produce the

great traits. Many expensive breeding stallions have been deemed 'flops' because they don't produce the good traits

even though they themselves had the good traits.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nigel said:


> I found this thread and it has a wealth of information on Lord and is helping me to better understand my question.
> 
> https://www.germanshepherds.com/for.../148295-lord-vom-gleisdreieck-pedigree-3.html
> 
> My male has Lord, but he is a ways back. He also has a fading reverse mask.


This goes back to a time when there were numerous individuals that posted that had in-depth knowledge on lines, training, pedigrees and dogs. The reverse mask is definitely a trait that Lord passed, which he inherited from Ingo v Rudigan. When I see a working line dog with a reverse mask probably 80% of time you find Lord or Ingo in the pedigree. Coincidence? Sure to some! But it’s pretty reliable to me&#55358;&#56631;*♀. He passed this to many of his progeny including the granddaughter I had from him. 
Anyway, I don’t want to belabor this topic, because people are more interested these days in cosmetic aspects of the breed. And I don’t mean that disparaging because it takes commitment to train, or go to trial and shows, so that first hand experiences and knowledge can be attained.
It’s much easier to learn from internet these days!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> When I see a working line dog with a reverse mask probably 80% of time you find Lord or Ingo in the pedigree. Coincidence? Sure to some! But it’s pretty reliable to me��*♀. He passed this to many of his progeny including the granddaughter I had from him.


Sure enough....9 generations back from my puppy, whose sire has a reverse mask, is Ingo.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@cliffson1 Some folks live in areas with limited resources and little access to knowledgable people, the interwebs are much of what I have to draw from. I've gained a lot from these discussions and appreciate what you and others share, I'm sure others do as well.
@wolfstraum is Mr P = Mr prospector? Ive read several pages about him and can understand better what you're saying (prepotency). Still, after so many generations of pairings, each with different genetic material, won't inbreeding at this point bring forward other traits as well? 

I'm not sure if this question will make sense, but Lord having prepotency, will there be less risk line breeding on him because of this.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think of breeding as kind of a chemistry set.. With some unknown chemicals (genes). You blend what you know works to give you the desired result (chemical), however, with other unknowns mixed in, sometimes you don't get all of what you expected. But as you learn what mixes well with each other, you get better at mixing safe/functional chemicals (puppies)... Odd analogy, but it works..


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Nigel said:


> @cliffson1 Some folks live in areas with limited resources and little access to knowledgable people, the interwebs are much of what I have to draw from. I've gained a lot from these discussions and appreciate what you and others share, I'm sure others do as well.
> 
> @wolfstraum is Mr P = Mr prospector? Ive read several pages about him and can understand better what you're saying (prepotency). Still, after so many generations of pairings, each with different genetic material, won't inbreeding at this point bring forward other traits as well?
> 
> I'm not sure if this question will make sense, but Lord having prepotency, will there be less risk line breeding on him because of this.




Yes - Mr P is Mr Prospector - good catch! 

At this point, breeding on Lord is usually going to be back massing - ie dogs in 5th or further back who are line bred on him, and 
it is not really a matter of risk...the factors he brings to the table are known and these characteristics are more positives and desireable. My Kyra was 2-5,5 on Lord....and so my Rs are backmassed 5, 8, 8 - 6, 9, 9 I think...and several are already reporting their surprise at the hunt drive and tracking ability


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nigel said:


> @cliffson1 Some folks live in areas with limited resources and little access to knowledgable people, the interwebs are much of what I have to draw from. I've gained a lot from these discussions and appreciate what you and others share, I'm sure others do as well.
> 
> @wolfstraum is Mr P = Mr prospector? Ive read several pages about him and can understand better what you're saying (prepotency). Still, after so many generations of pairings, each with different genetic material, won't inbreeding at this point bring forward other traits as well?
> 
> I'm not sure if this question will make sense, but Lord having prepotency, will there be less risk line breeding on him because of this.


Nigel, I understand! But do you know how much information on internet comes from people who read something and run with it ....from people who don’t have experience, or knowledge based on first hand circumstances? Do you know how much line, kennel, show, and sport bias enter into information passed on Internet. 
Look I understand for the average pet owner there is no need to do the things I mentioned, and that’s cool, but often they will be the first people to give some advice on a subject to others( especially newbies on internet) and where did they get this advice or knowledge from? 
As for Lord, and your question, the issue isn’t whether his prepotency makes him a better or lesser risk to breed. You linebreed for different reasons, but it always has to be done with three bases of knowledge; (1 to strengthen positive traits, (2 to understand the negative traits that will be strengthened, (3 to understand how the rest of the pedigree will assimilate your linebreeding.
Most people do the positive equation, few do the negative one. That’s why I often tell people that some of the alltime great dogs I like to see in a pedigree once, but not linebred or in pedigree more than once. 
Example: Two great dogs I know,( whose names both start with T, one West German and one Slovak), both produced tremendous nerve, power, heart, strength, and fight......but both produced high incidences of missing testicles. So I love seeing them in a pedigree once because that can be compensated for with knowledge of other dogs in pedigree and they bring so much good. BUT, I would never linebreed on them because it will be many many generations to lessen that missing testicles aspect once you linebreed on these dogs even as distant as 5-5 linebreeding.
So with Lord, there are pedigrees he is an asset in linebred state, but in some pedigrees he wouldn’t be asset.
I hope this makes sense.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Nigel, I understand! But do you know how much information on internet comes from people who read something and run with it ....from people who don’t have experience, or knowledge based on first hand circumstances? Do you know how much line, kennel, show, and sport bias enter into information passed on Internet.
> Look I understand for the average pet owner there is no need to do the things I mentioned, and that’s cool, but often they will be the first people to give some advice on a subject to others( especially newbies on internet) and where did they get this advice or knowledge from?
> As for Lord, and your question, the issue isn’t whether his prepotency makes him a better or lesser risk to breed. You linebreed for different reasons, but it always has to be done with three bases of knowledge; (1 to strengthen positive traits, (2 to understand the negative traits that will be strengthened, (3 to understand how the rest of the pedigree will assimilate your linebreeding.
> Most people do the positive equation, few do the negative one. That’s why I often tell people that some of the alltime great dogs I like to see in a pedigree once, but not linebred or in pedigree more than once.
> ...


This is a perfect explanation actually and clears up my confusion. I may not need this information for breeding purposes, however I’d like to understand why breeding choices are made and the pros and cons of those choices. I’m hoping this will help my knowledge of the dogs themselves and in selecting my next pup. 

You are correct on “repeated” knowledge and the need to know who’s giving it. 6 years ago when a family member went to purchase a wl gsd pup the supposed hobby breeder knew all the right things to say and was very believable. We lucked out and he’s a nice dog, but in reality it was a gamble.


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## Roark (Jan 18, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Check out German Shepherd Breeders on FB. It's a group made up mostly of breeders and they are usually cool about recommendations.
> 
> Hi, do you have the exact URL for this FB group...there are several online and can't find this one....thanks!!


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## SentinelHarts (May 7, 2011)

The group link you asked for 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/100827050053129/


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Nickgsd said:


> I really do appreciate everyone's input. I guess I was so overwhelmed with the amount of gsd breeders, I just wanted someone to tell me who to choose.
> 
> 
> Lines vs breeds got it.
> ...


 Hi Nick ,

I'm in Ontario but got my boy from Wendelin Farms which is just in side Quebec . I would google their website , take a look around and then not hesitate to contact Christina the breeder to chat about the type of dogs she produces . Likely she would have what you are looking for overall.


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