# Opinions/info on these lines?



## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Could someone who is familiar with these lines kind of give me a quick breakdown on particular strengths/weaknesses in these lines?

*Pascha Ga-Ta - German shepherd dog*
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Lori v.'T Heukske - German shepherd dog
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Generally what kind of offspring would you expect from a pairing like that as far as temperament and working ability, and why?

And then one more pairing:
*
SG Ingo vom Haus Larwin - German shepherd dog* 

*V Britta z Mestskej Policie - German shepherd dog*

Thanks in advance for anyone who could help me learn a bit more about these lines.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Think is would help if you would add your background and experience with GSD's PLUS what you are looking for. Show? Pet? Sch? Agility? Herding? AKC?


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Oh of course, details would be helpful, eh? 

I'm considering a second dog for Sch, herding, agility, obedience. I'm currently working toward the BH with Odin, we have a HIT coming up as well. I'm going to be looking into a new Sch club, and the trainer we're currently working with for obedience has titled dogs in Schutzhund and is (IMO) an excellent trainer, but he doesn't really do much anymore as far as bitework goes. 

I've always had a big interest in the Czech/Slovak dogs, they seem to have nice structure and dark coloring, and they seem to be fairly versatile and good workers in general? But really I just want a nicely built dog with the right drive and temperament for sport work, I don't mind putting in the extra work and training for a higher drive dog, I'd like to think that challenging dogs are good teachers.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I'd ask the breeder what s/he thinks the parents will bring to the puppies and what they think the puppies will be well suited for.

The pairing of Pascha and Lori is crossing Czech lines with Belgian. In this case, the Belgian lines are heavy on Tiekerhook lines, with dogs who typically bring low thresholds, high aggression, high prey, handler-hardness, great natural tracking ability, and some hecticness. 

Lori is linebred heavily on Greif z Lahntal, who was a great dog and important producer, but I've heard he brings sharpness/aggression to the table. The male, Coky, has no linebreeding. In this breeding, I'd suspect that the female will have much more influence on the puppies, so make sure you like her a lot--conformation, temperament, personality. 

Czech dogs typically bring medium-high prey, higher thresholds, and more aggression and defense. 

Just on paper, I'd guess these puppies could be somewhat sharp/aggressive and maybe a bit hectic in their drives--it will depend strongly on how good their nerves are. And it will depend heavily on the actual parents and what they are like. In any breeding it's important to know the temperaments of the individual parents--maybe these parents are a better match than what I'm seeing just on paper. I'd say these puppies like they could be a lot of dog.

The Ingo x Britta litter...

Ingo's lines bring a _lot _of hardness and good drives. If I were guessing his temperament based on his pedigree, I'd guess that Ingo is medium-high in prey drive and is an aloof, strong dog who doesn't like strangers to mess with him. (Based on other Gento/Arry/Rakker progeny I've known.)

I don't know too much about Britta's pedigree, but her grandfather Arry v Pendel-bach was a great W. German dog who brought a lot of hardness, drive, and aggression to the table, and he was bred to a half W. Ger. show-line female, then the son was bred back into Czech border patrol dogs to produce Britta. It makes me wonder about the goals of the person who was doing these breedings--what were they working to accomplish with these breeding choices?

Also... if the dates are right on the pedigree, Britta's almost 12 years old ... 

At any rate, if at all possible, meet the parents, see if they look like the type of dog you would like to live with and work. Then meet the puppies and see if you like their personalities, too.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Thank you very much for the insight, I should mention that both of these pairings are actually pedigrees of two different breeding females that a local kennel uses in their breeding program, so nobody is breeding a 12 year old female.. I hope. 

I have yet to meet these two dogs in person, their pedigrees seemed pretty good as far as being working lines but i'm really trying to learn what makes each individual line good and what lines or combinations should be avoided.. it's a bit overwhelming I have to admit. It's a personal goal to learn as much as I can about the breed. 

I think they have both been bred to this male, any opinions on the pairing?

Dutch von Drachenhaus - German shepherd dog

Would his pedigree "dilute" any sharpness or aggression in the dam's lines?

And if my questions aren't too in depth and annoying what about the dams and a dog with this pedigree?

Mating test - German shepherd dog


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

IMO the male above is a "BYB/"pet" dog breeding. American lines that have likely done nothing. Generation after generation of breeding dogs just becasue they CAN. Probably with no thought as to the outcome of the breeding other than getting puppies to sell.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

VomBlack said:


> I think they have both been bred to this male, any opinions on the pairing?
> 
> Dutch von Drachenhaus - German shepherd dog
> 
> ...


I don't know why anyone would choose that male to breed to if one cares about having a good pedigree with generations of health and performance testing.... He seems to be a product of generations of "backyard" breeding. He looks like a handsome-enough dog in himself--but why would a breeder choose him as a stud? Availability is the most likely reason.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

That's what I thought, I wasn't sure if there was some other reason as to why a male with that background would be bred to those females with good working backgrounds. The male is OFA certified and working in obedience but there aren't any working dogs until way further back in the pedigree. 

The second "test" pedigree is with a dam who has a little better working pedigree, but same father as the sire above. Would the odds be better if 3 out of the 4 grandparents came from working lines as far as working ability goes? I am familiar with the sire above and the father and I will say temperament wise he's a very, very steady dog.. so i'm impressed with the temperament but I don't think the dog has ever been worked outside of obedience so I don't know. Again i'm not too savvy on lines yet, but would it be a good idea to add that male to those lines based on the stable temperaments in his particular line? If the females side can have a tendency to produce sharper dogs.

Am I thinking too much into this? lol Or better yet, what books or websites would you recommend as far as learning the different types of GSD lines and what makes each one generally different from the other?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Christine on her assessment of the above mentioned dogs in terms of general traits. Christine has excellent bloodline knowledge and can remeber talking to her years ago at a trial at Misty Ridge kennels in which we talked pedigrees. 
I will say that today the top breeders of Czech dogs to this country like Eurosport and Jinopo tend to have a much sportier dog than 15 years ago as most are mixed with West lines today. So the nerves and the grips are often improved, thresholds higher,...great for sport not as many in Law Enforcement as past. 
I also agree with others that this male is not one I would use for these females. Too much lack of knowledge on history of health and working as others have stated. 
Christine, great to see you posting on pedigrees as you have a lot of knowledge stored in head!!!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

VomBlack said:


> Am I thinking too much into this? lol Or better yet, what books or websites would you recommend as far as learning the different types of GSD lines and what makes each one generally different from the other?


I think you should look at the reasons *for* considering a puppy out of one of these dogs. Proximity? Price? Or do you really like the parents? What do you want to use to determine where you get your next puppy?

I can't say that I'd recommend these lines to anyone--pet or working. But that does not mean that you wouldn't get a great dog out of the litter.

But first thing I'd look at is the health certifications of *both* of the parents--are they hip and elbow xrayed? If not, walk away.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I agree with Christine on her assessment of the above mentioned dogs in terms of general traits. Christine has excellent bloodline knowledge and can remeber talking to her years ago at a trial at Misty Ridge kennels in which we talked pedigrees.
> I will say that today the top breeders of Czech dogs to this country like Eurosport and Jinopo tend to have a much sportier dog than 15 years ago as most are mixed with West lines today. So the nerves and the grips are often improved, thresholds higher,...great for sport not as many in Law Enforcement as past.
> I also agree with others that this male is not one I would use for these females. Too much lack of knowledge on history of health and working as others have stated.
> Christine, great to see you posting on pedigrees as you have a lot of knowledge stored in head!!!


Aww, thanks Cliff.  Hope to see you around again sometime, too. I don't know the Czech lines as well, although I've been researching them. Seems like the best dogs we see from the Czech breedings are interwoven with the best of the W.German working-line dogs. Very seldom do I see them breed to Belgian/Dutch/Danish bloodlines. I don't know whether that's because of accessibility or incompatibility.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think that one of the reasons they prefer the WGWL (mixing Czech with WGWL instead of Belgian) is the Belgian lines in some cases have over the top prey drive. They are much more suited for high end sport than some of the Czech breeders like. Also, a lot of the Czech breeders like to retain the bone, head, and low to medium threshold in aggression. The West dogs that go back to the strong conformation(Aly, Sirk, Sid, Olex, Vito, etc,) will pick up the nerve base that both the WGWL and Begium lines possess and keep good conformation. It seems that the basis of many Belgium/Holland lines are Orry, Tom, and Mink. None of these dogs are going to win beauty contests and now these dogs are entrenched in the lines of these two countries. I think they prefer the Troll/Timmy,Korbelbach,Stoffelblick, descendants. Of course this is a generalization, but I know from talking to people from Czech Rep that some view things this way.
ps Of corse dogs like Gento, Nessel, Rakker, will give you the hardness and low threshholds also and they are in many Belgium/Holland lines, but they don't give the physical type the Czech breeders like.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Thank you both, the knowledge the two of you have regarding these lines is really outstanding. :wild:

As far as knowing how an individual dog contributes to a pedigree, is that jut something you pick up when you get to go out and meet these particular dogs? You guys seem to know a lot about the older dogs as well, wasn't sure if it's word of mouth on the older guys, watching lines closely, etc. I really need to start meeting more breeders and handlers to get a better first hand opinion on different types. The working dog breeders i've met locally are more into mals and dutchies and GSDs are kind of an afterthought in comparison.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think that a lot of us learn a lot of this at trials and seminars. People like Lisa, Sue, Chris, Christine, and others are going to go to the Nationals, the WUSV when it is held in this country. Especially at the WUSV you get to see many many people from different kennels and many great dogs from all over the world. You get to match dogs with pedigrees and traits and characteristics. You get to talk to many World competitors and international kennels about their dogs and traits and characteristics. I mean a serious person in quest of knowledge of bloodlines is going to be at the WUSV. Also the Seiger shows, and the German Seiger and Bundesseigerprufund. 
Also at local trials you can pick the brains of foreign judges on the different dogs and anecedotal information. Seminars given by the Helmut Raisers, Bernard Flinks, Fritz Beihler, Elmar Mannes, etc also allow people to pick their brains when you go to dinner that night or nights. 
It takes committment, and the knowledge of who is really knowledgable about dogs and events so you can go to things that are beneficial. Almost every judge I have met from Europe was very knowlegable about dogs, training, and behavoir. If the judges of the breed don't have this kind of indepth knowledge not only will you not learn, but the sphere they have influence in will wither on the vine also.
PS...don't want to leave out Lee Hough of Wolfstaum kennel who has a wealth of info on European dogs and Belgium lines in particular.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ignorance is bliss


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your're right Holland, its not that people don't know.....its that they don't know they don't know. In the first case, you can correct it if you chose, in the second case you have no growth but as you identified you have "bliss" until you wake up. The emperor has no clothes syndrome!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thanks Cliff! just found this thread....

I do like the Belgian dogs - saw some really nice dogs when I was there - and of course, meeting Ufo really did fix my interest in the Belgian lines - but really - when you look at pedigrees - most of the Belgians do go back to the Netherlands, some DDR and WGR too....Ufo has early Tiekerhook behind him for example (far different from current Tiekerhook!!!) so the Europeans do blend their lines and the Belgians have been really successful at producing high level sport dogs - I like a blend of lines...and yes, have favorites or things I look for in a pedigree because I believe I can get certain characterisics fixed using certain dogs. 

I am looking for balance - and using all types- knowing what comes from where - WGR, Czech DDR, or Belgian - is just a matter of studying the pedigree of every dog you meet and figuring out what is coming from where ....as Cliff mentions, talking to European judges (and breeders) has been immensely helpful....most of them will talk openly about dogs and lines - if there is a nerve or hip issue coming out of certain dogs/lines - it is a fact, not an emotional issue! They talk about who and what to use to balance certain things....

Seeing dogs and comparing what they are to their pedigrees is the basis of making breeding decisions....seeing progeny of dogs is also really really helpful. For example, I am doing a breeding with a male whose pedigree has elements I would normally avoid - but I LOVE the dog and his owner has pups from my young female's 3/4 sister and I believe it will balance out that high Belgian prey....without losing any drive at all...another one I am doing shortly may look like I am losing prey - bringing in Czech and old Belgian (Antverpa), back massing on some DDR with a DDR/WGR female - but then I can take a female from that back to Ufo...and not go over the top nuts wtih prey....I really believe breeding should be about the big picture, not just selling a litter from the latest most advertised male....whether I use a WUSV dog or a police dog - I look at the next generation and the next after that when I look at pedigrees for breeding!

Also recently helped a client find a puppy after him waiting over a year and half for me to have a litter - brought in a Czech born puppy for him....it was sired by Zico Adelegg (WGR) out of a ****** Mohnwiese (Bel) daughter whose dam was Czech bred - but went back to WGR lines....very proven producing Czech female (Bemoan Bee)....turning into super pup - totally international pedigree - and everything we expected and more...guy got a top level potential dog bought entirely on the basis of its pedigree and me having seen a few siblings to his dam...

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yeah Lee, 
I like some of the males from old Tiekerhook lines, especially Asko Jouyne-Keyliff(sp), and Falko vom haus Sindern. I also like to mix the lines like Lee, balancing out what is too strong and bringing in what I need!!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Cliff- What particularly do you like regards Asko Joufne Keyleff and Falko vh Sindern?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Asko brought very strong nerve and great presence. Gary Hanrahan had him in the Staes for a year and people didn't utilize him. Good strong working aptitude. Falko brought edge and good social agression. Falko goes back to Oberhausener-Kreuz dogs back further to Lierberg if my memory serves me. Many police candidates and KNPV dogs came through Falko and the Tiekerhook dogs of that period. If you look at pedigrees of KNPV dogs of today in Holland, you will often see Falko in the pedigree. They both produced many "real" dogs that could work in stressful situations.


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