# Shock collars....grrrrrr



## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

Why is it I would love to take every shock collar and strap it to the Human.

Does anyone really get anywhere with a shock collar?

What ever happened to *bonding* with your dog? Mine would follow me to their death if I asked them, just to be with me! 

I have seen GSDs ( not mine ) take the shock to get to their objective. And then you have a real issue to deal with!

If bacon and praise do not do it your doing something wrong. Real wrong.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, and feel the same way about prong collars. Just because the dogs handle it ok, does not mean that it is the best and only way to train. I prefer to encourage the dog to learn using positive reinforcement techniques. 

And I hate being shocked. So no, I do not want to do that to my dogs.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes, CK, you can bond with a dog using an e-collar and no, you dont shock the cr** out of a dog to do it. This is not the point. Seriously, an e-collar, is much more gentle than a collar correction if used correctly. You do not wait for a dog to do something wrong and then shock it! wrong wrong wrong! Go ahead, strap mine to me and zap me with it, but I guarantee you you wont get more than a blink out of me as long as you use the setting I use on my dog. Anyone you have seen using a collar in the method you describe IS and idiot and I will help you hold them down myself! Please consider there are responsible owners that use this training method for off leash proofing. It can and IS used to shape behavior without causing pain to the dog. I would never harm my dog, nor would I use anything on her that was potentially harmful. I personally would not use this in aggression situations, but I would have no problem working with a proffessional that IS experienced in working with an e-collar in these situations. Just as it gripes you the thought of someone using a "shock" collar, it gripes me to have someone badmouth the practice without understanding the true practical applications as applied by someone who really knows how to use one. If you dont want to use one, dont, just as you have an opinion, so does everyone else and I know first hand that an e-collar is a safe, effective and humane when used correctly.

In the wrong or untrained hands, you can develop problems, just as you can with any other training method. 

I use many training methods including clicker training, NILIF etc...the e-collar I use has a dial from 0 - 100. I test it on myself everytime I use it for a training session. If something is wrong with it, I know it before it ever touches my dog.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I've held an electronic collar up to my throat, turned it halfway up and pushed the button. I've also tried on a prong collar on and yanked it.

Not my arm. Not my leg. My throat. Unless someone is willing to do that, they shouldn't use one.

But to unilaterally dismiss any tool that might be very useful in training a dog that might some day save his life, I'm not willing to do that. (Dogs that chase prey in wilderness areas is a good example of a reasonable use for an electronic collar). I won't get into it with those "experts" who believe that e-collars are useful for everyday training of pet dogs. I've seen firsthand that positive reinforcement training FIRST works better than positive punishment training most of the time. 

I don't use e-collars. I won't use a prong on my GSD pup and hope to never use one again. But to be close-minded about prongs or e-collars is almost as bad as those who are dismissive about clicker training. There is a spectrum upon which all of these tools may be effective. My preference is that we choose the least harmful first. But if you've never had a dog that got into a zone that you couldn't get him out of, be careful about dismissing any tool. Not all dogs can be easily trained just by treats.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Ditto what Betsy just said..Nicely put.


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## hannibalGSD (Apr 28, 2008)

I know of instances where I would use a shock collar. One is when my dog jumps on my glass door to get let in. I am not out there so I cannot really correct her, using a shock collar would be most effective imo because she would associate jumping on the door with a shock. The second instance is for when she runs the fence and barks bloody murder at the neighbor dog. I can go out and get her to quit but the moment I go in shes at it again. I have shocked myself with a collar on the highest setting and its not bad, in fact I have used an electroshock therapy machine and it was a weaker shock than that. More to surprise than injure.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

E collars, prongs, clickers, all have their place in training and in my opinion a good trainer different tools for different things.


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## lnsmdove (Oct 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CKWhy is it I would love to take every shock collar and strap it to the Human.
> 
> Does anyone really get anywhere with a shock collar?
> 
> ...



Like any tool, shock collars can be used or abused. I can't say I'm crazy about folks who use them as part of their regular training regimens, but there are some uses for which I think they are a justifiable option.

In over 40 years, I can count the number of times I've used them on both hands.
These are the reasons:
1. Had a very agressive Belgian Tervuren, who was also an escape artist that required immediate assistance on her off-lead recall, for her own safety and that of my very tolerant neighbors.

2. I've used them for snake proofing field and wildnerness SAR dogs after having lost 2 dogs to snake bites. (I live in an area with a pretty dense population of rattlesnakes and water moccasins.

3. I used one on a Lab in a case of cure or kill. The dog was the most determined barker I've ever seen and the owner stated in no uncertain terms if the dog couldn't be fixed he would be put down. Happily, he was fixed and the dog is now 8 years older (10 yrs total) and still owned and loved by the original owner.

I know alot of field dog trainers, Pointers and Setters, that use them on extremely high drive dogs that would literally hunt themselves to death. They get out of recall range and get lost. 

So, that said, one needs to weigh all the options. Other situations that come to mind are dogs that chase cars or harass livestock (which will get them shot here in Texas if that livestock belongs to someone else). This is of course after other methods have been tried and failed. One of my dogs that was killed by a snake bite had been been twice before the bite that killed her. She just would not leave them alone. I had not used the collar on her and wished that I had. JMHO

Susan
Grace the Good


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I will admit, at one time I felt the same, so I did some reading. In case Lou doesn't show up here, check out his site
http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm

He has some great articles on the myths of the e-collar and how to use it properly. Very informative. 



> Originally Posted By: CK
> If bacon and praise do not do it your doing something wrong. Real wrong.


Not all dogs respond to bacon and praise. My Lab, that would absolutely work everytime. My GSDs, no. 
When you have a dog that would rather chase the cat then the treat, you are in trouble.

Everyone has their opinion on training. While I am all for positive reinforcement, at some point there has to be a consequence, especially for working dogs

I don't use an e-collar, but I am certainly not opposed to it. I can't say much more than Betsy already did. 
E-collar trainers DO suggest trying it on yourself and the point is not to put the collar on the dog and shock the dog at the highest setting when the dog is incorrect. 

I suspect Lou Castle will be along shortly...


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## lnsmdove (Oct 12, 2009)

ooops, that should have read:


One of my dogs that was killed by a snake bite had been bitten twice before the bite that killed her. 

Susan


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: novarobinI suspect Lou Castle will be along shortly...


I was going to wait for him........but couldnt....sorry, normally I just shrug, but there are animals that truly could be helped by this training method, if there wasnt such a stigma attached.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: CKI have seen GSDs ( not mine ) take the shock to get to their objective. And then you have a real issue to deal with!.


That describes Max, and I think also is the cause for many of his neck issues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like chasing cars, and game, and livestock could be managed by not allowing the dog to run. It is a containment issue.

As for bird dogs, I know a lot of hunters use electric collars on their dogs and it works for them. The dogs have to run free etc. So I will not comment, except to say that to SOME hunters, the dog is equipment like the gun, the reloader, the pick up, etc. To SOME hunters, the dog lives in a kennel in the back yard except when hunting. He does not go on walks, or to the pet store, or to the dog park. His job is birds and he loves his job, the rest of the time he waits. The hunter has a box in his pick up for the dog, like a rack in the pick up for the gun. The e-collar is yet another tool for his favorite hobby, which is not the dog.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Quote:It sounds like chasing cars, and game, and livestock could be managed by not allowing the dog to run. It is a containment issue.


Or a training issue.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Hold on there Selzer.

I see you used the word SOME, but I think your impressions are wrong. I used to run **** dogs when I was young (when I was young it seemed to be a lot of fun to walk around the woods all night following howling dogs, it does not seem to be as much fun as I got older). Anyway I would venture to say that for the MAJORITY of hunters who use dogs it is really about the dogs and the taking of game is secondary.


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## lnsmdove (Oct 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerIt sounds like chasing cars, and game, and livestock could be managed by not allowing the dog to run. It is a containment issue.
> 
> As for bird dogs, I know a lot of hunters use electric collars on their dogs and it works for them. The dogs have to run free etc. So I will not comment, except to say that to SOME hunters, the dog is equipment like the gun, the reloader, the pick up, etc. To SOME hunters, the dog lives in a kennel in the back yard except when hunting. He does not go on walks, or to the pet store, or to the dog park. His job is birds and he loves his job, the rest of the time he waits. The hunter has a box in his pick up for the dog, like a rack in the pick up for the gun. The e-collar is yet another tool for his favorite hobby, which is not the dog.



I absolutely agree with you regarding the containment issue, however, and I'm sure the problem isn't limited to Texas, but alot of "city folk" move to the country with the mindset that now it's OK to let Fido run free. Can't tell you how many of these OWNERS I've wanted to use a shock collar on.

About the hunters, they're like any other part of the population, there are good ones and bad ones. As I said before an e-collar is a tool that can be used properly or improperly. You can build a house with a hammer or bash a skull. Neither is determined by the hammer. ;-)

Susan
Grace, GSD


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## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

Ok, as a last resort, e collar or needle, Ok. 

You can talk me into that. Some dogs may be challenged.

But not because someone is lazy and collects a dog like an ornament.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Can someone explain to me the difference between the invisafence and using a shock collar?I don't see people on here having heated discussions when an owner comes on asking about getting an invisafance.
Aren't they both shocking the dog with a collar to train them???? How come it is more exceptable to use an invisafence but not a remote collar?A shock collar is a shock collar whether it be triggered by a sensor or however the fences work or a human finger.I just can't grasp the difference.I prefer the remote collar so I have to be there to supervise the dogs outside.I use it for back up if my dogs decide to chase something or get on a scent of something in the woods and tone me out...
I think it awesome if some owners have a great dog that they can call off of anything.I however don't yet.I've also met lots of owners with off lead dogs that I wish used the collar or a leash since their dogs don't listen.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: CKOk, as a last resort, e collar or needle, Ok.
> 
> You can talk me into that. Some dogs may be challenged.
> 
> But not because someone is lazy and collects a dog like an ornament.


I'm not sure where you are coming from on this? So you don't like the e-collar, that's fine and dandy.

However, I think you are being shortsighted and narrow in your views. The e-collar can be a good training tool for those that spend the time to learn how to use one correctly.

It can be humane if used correctly.

Like I said, you don't want to use it fine! You don't want to see it used in an abusive manner, I'm with you 100 percent. 

But I think you are dismissing a lot of people that find it as one tool that they use in a humane way

I've been called a lot of things, but I don't think I have been ever been called lazy where dogs are concerned.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think using e-collars is lazy. There's a LOT of extra training and imprinting that goes into using them correctly. I've actually chosen the lazy way out and decided NOT to use one on my dog.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

To address the electronic fence, I do not like them. Any dog with a decent drive will take the shock and go right through them. There is also no controlling them.

As for the containment issue, the cat was an example. No, my dogs aren't off leash, even if we were in the country. But E-collars are used for many types of dogs where containment is not possible. For example Police dogs, SAR dogs, hunting dogs, etc.

Still waiting for Lou









Just a note, I discovered his website long before he showed up here.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyIf you are inflicting pain with an e-collar you arent using it correctly. period





> Originally Posted By: CKWhy is it I would love to take every shock collar and strap it to the Human.
> 
> Does anyone really get anywhere with a shock collar?
> 
> ...


I disagree. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Don't pinch collars inflict pain? If you use pinch collars and Ecollars correctly it typically takes very little pain to cause a correction; often so minor that it's barely perceived as being more like an itch or discomfort.

Have you ever watched wolves interact in a pack? Have you ever seen dominant wolves were the Alpha Wolf go around and assert their position and discipline other pack members by putting them in a submissive position and biting them on the snout and/or throat/neck. The E-collars and pinch collars simulate this biting behavior. This rank establishing and disciplinary behavior that wolves and dogs use does inflict some degree of pain sometimes there is even some physical trauma. I've seen dogs and wolves that have had cuts or punctures from overly exuberant play and/or rank assertion and or discipline behavior.

I suspect I am better bonded with my dog then you are with yours. My dogs would also follow me to their deaths just to be beside me. My dog is very well bonded to me. My dog knows my behavior and reads my body language so well that I seldom have to give her commands. I am disabled but yet I take my dog on a kilometer walk nearly every day. I am disabled but yet I take my dog on a short walk about six to 10 times a day. I take my dog to the dog park about twice a week. I give my dog at least 15 minutes to half an hour of quality time every single day; where she is the total focus of my attention and I often lay on the floor or ground and mimic wolf homecoming socialization.

I use a shock collar because I am disabled; a dog pulling on a leash could literally fracture my spine or cause a disk or vertebrae to slip; the pain is probably incomprehendible to most of you. A dog pulling on a leash can literally make my paralysis worse. The shock from a shock collar is a minor (a walk in the park) compared to the pain I have. 

I would consider a shock collar to be a possible humane alternative if used correctly. An elderly person would likely have more difficulty handling a spirited dog then you. You take your health for granite and assume everyone else has the same health. You are prejudice. What do you think would be better a shock collar or injuring the handler? Shock collar or euthanasia? Shock collar or the dog getting hit by a car, or the dog biting someone, or the dog chasing deer into traffic causing car accidents?


Regretfully some people seem to be under the opinion that the shock on an Ecollar can be used as a positive correction. I would consider that to be reckless as a low level of shock may be perceived as pleasant but a higher level of shock may be perceived as painful. From my observations the degree of control on a shock collar is not that precise; the humidity and the dogs hair can have a large influence on the degree of shock.

Regretfully this E-collar trainer seems to think that a shock on an E-collar can reliably be used as positive reinforcement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EORY0W_Jlxk



> Quote:A TENs unit was used﻿ on my legs after a accident to regenerate nerve function. If you understood that electricity can be used in a VERY gentle fashion you would have a far less emotional response to this video & gain understanding that low stim can be paired with reward, like loading a clicker. Watch the video of Teddy 4 an example. I am assuming you have an open mind & a interest to learn. all the best to you. I tapped often in this video to demonstrate that the collar stimulation is not perceived as an aversive to him. Tom is certainly trained well enough that it is not necessary (which is why I started the clip showing no collar used) but I wanted people to understand that stimulation does not have to be used as a *punishment*. It can be used in a way that promotes attention without it being considered an aversive by the dog. Hope that﻿ makes some sense.


While I agree that a low level of shock may be perceived as pleasant; I disagree that a shock collar can be so precisely controlled that the shock will always be perceived as pleasant. I disagree with this trainers apparent assertion that shock should be used as a positive reward. An E-collar is typically much more powerful than a tens unit; but much less powerful than a cattle prod or thaser. Even a tens unit can be painful to some people on higher settings.

A shock collar much like bacon has its place in the dog training toolkit and can be harmful to the dog if used improperly. Bacon can hurt or kill a dog. Using logic similar to yours; you are hurting your dog and must not be properly bonded to your dog if you have to bribe it to get it to do something.









Like some old-timers say sometimes it's good to have a stick on one end and a carrot at the other.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: novarobin*To address the electronic fence, I do not like them. Any dog with a decent drive will take the shock and go right through them. There is also no controlling them.*
> 
> As for the containment issue, the cat was an example. No, my dogs aren't off leash, even if we were in the country. But E-collars are used for many types of dogs where containment is not possible. For example Police dogs, SAR dogs, hunting dogs, etc.
> 
> ...


I know a few people who use the invisafence but are disgusted with people who use the e collars.I just don't get it.
I like to be right there with my dogs and not be lazy about letting them out to play and run around..At this moment fencing in the yard is not an option so I use the collar as back up.


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

You know you can get an E-collar without the shock mode. several offer an audible tone and then a vibration not a shock with adjustible levels. is that severe or inhumane? i dont think so.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I'll leave that answer for Lou.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

When I first got my first shock collar I joked that some wife was going to get hold of it and use it on her husband or on her children. Sure enough a few months later I saw a doctor using a dog collar on someone’s wrist for experiments to stop snoring. The husband was a chronic snorer; the doctor gave the remote control to the wife. When the husband woke up the wife with the snoring the wife would simply shocked the husband until he stopped snoring. Evidently it passed its trials because now there is a commercial version that is specially made for humans.

There is essentially what an electronic shock collar that has been modified to fit on the wrist of a human. It’s the human equivalent of an electronic shock collar for barking except in humans it’s used for snoring. It has a microphone that listens for the sound of snoring and starts shocking the patient to stop the snoring. When the snoring stops the shocks stop. 
http://www.hivox-biotek.com/eng-pro-ss.htm


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, my dogs are smart enough to know I am not a wolf or a dog. I do not discipline like a wolf or a dog. I am not alpha nothing. I do not need to be, in fact I do not want to be. The alpha wolf or dog is taken down and killed when he is injured old or sick. Just what I want my pack to do to me -- NOT.

No, I will not sell a puppy to someone who determines to keep the puppy from harm with an invisible fence. Invisible fences may keep your dog in, but does not keep other dogs or people out. If the dog does go through it, he will not come back. I can go on and on about it. I think they are a nuisance and can be a big negative for our breed. 

The problem is that the collars CAN be used on higher and higher shock levels. Well, part of the problem is that. If you are going to bother to train the dog, why use the gadget? Most people are going to start out with good intentions and then in a few hours or minutes crank it up. 

Suddenly we have bred dogs that cannot be trained without using prong collars or shock collars. Hmmmmm. I guess before there were shock collars and prong collars these dogs were just taken out back and shot. 

Lastly, I emphasized SOME because my dad is a hunter and Pip, his setter lived in the house and even my dad, who did hunt with him, referred to him more as a pet and not really a hunting dog. 

Other hunters I have met, the dogs are fed, and watered in their kennels or on their lines, and poo is cleaned up, but the dog is not even considered until it is time to train, or time to hunt. Training precedes hunting season, and neither is very long. Mostly the dogs live out back waiting for it to be time to go out into the field. 
This is only some hunters. I have met these people.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I actually dont care for invisifences. It doesnt keep other animals or children out, and relies on the stability of a system with no to little human intervention to ensure it is working properly. Ava is never let outside alone, within an enclosed fence or not. She is supervised always and I dont feel you can train effectively if you arent there. Also, a dog on a charge can bully through the fence..........but then wont come back, there is a shock regardless which direction the dog is coming from. I have felt the shock from an invisafence....that actually was too much of a zap IMO. But perhaps there are better ones than the one I felt. I do not personally like training methods that are not directly interactive between owner and dog. I just dont trust the e-fence because the lack of human interaction with it. I can only shape behavior if I am present with my dog and actively participating in her training.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI am not alpha nothing. I do not need to be, in fact I do not want to be.


I think you are being less than honest. Do you really let your dogs rule the house? 



> Originally Posted By: selzerThe alpha wolf or dog is taken down and killed when he is injured old or sick.


That rarely happens. It typically only happens when resources are dangerously low. Watch how good dogs behave at a dog park when an elderly or disabled dog comes to the dog park; do the dogs take them down and kill them? Or are the elderly and disabled dogs often granted an honorary alpha role? In times of plenty even wolves will often respect their elders and disabled.

If you had more than one dog or if you’ve ever been to the dog park when a dog has been injured; how do the dogs react? Do they all gang up and beat up and kill the injured dog? Or do the dogs often instinctively gangway and then show curiosity and sympathy and sometimes even affection?

Scientists even found a Dire wolf skeleton that had a brain injury and was blinded yet the skull had healed after the injury. The evidence proves that wolves will sometimes care for their elderly and injured.


> Originally Posted By: selzerThe problem is that the collars CAN be used on higher and higher shock levels. Well, part of the problem is that. If you are going to bother to train the dog, why use the gadget?


Using your kind of “logic” why use a leash or a collar? Several times I’ve seen people that have had dogs that don’t come when called; they often chase down their dogs and beat them with the leash; which is why I think the dogs don’t calm and often run when their owners call their dogs or get the leash. I’ve seen owners (mainly prissy drunk women) pick up their dog with their collar essentially strangling the dog; and drag around their dog like it was a sack of potatoes. Then they wonder why their dogs are injured fearful, aggressive and psychotic. They are injuring their dogs and making their dogs fearful, aggressive and psychotic.



> Originally Posted By: selzerMost people are going to start out with good intentions and then in a few hours or minutes crank it up.


I’m sure it happens but I’ve never seen anyone lazily and casually crank it all the way up and leave it there. The only time I’ve seen people leave it cranked up is when a dog’s hair is so thick that it has to be turned up to work at all.



> Originally Posted By: selzerSuddenly we have bred dogs that cannot be trained without using prong collars or shock collars. Hmmmmm. I guess before there were shock collars and prong collars these dogs were just taken out back and shot.


The dogs for the most part have not changed; it’s just now that we have more tools in our pocket that less dogs have to be put down and that more people can handle dogs and can handle them more effectively and more efficiently. Dogs are easier to train and can be more effective because we have more tools at our disposal.

Would you rather go back to the days that dogs they couldn’t be easily be trained without all the fancy gadgets be put down? It sounds like you don’t have the dogs *or* the humans interest in mind.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyI actually dont care for invisifences.


Like with all tools they have to be used responsibly and wisdom should be used to select which tool is best for a particular job. 

I particularly am skeptical of invisible fences for people that use them for small dogs in my region. The invisible fences often prevent small dogs from fleeing; yet they allow prey animals like coyotes or larger aggressive or hungry dogs easily stalk and kill the small dogs. It’s almost like shooting fish in a barrel.

Because a lot of small dogs and cats have been attacked and killed in this region the government is more aggressive at killing coyotes and stray dogs.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Selzer,
What you are referring to is irresponsible owners who whether it is a remote collar or a prong or a choker,if they get aggravated enough they're going to abuse the device of training.Yes some people shouldn't use them because of there lack of self control, but I think those owner just shouldn't own a dog since they are going to abuse any device and if they don't have a device they are just going to abuse the dog with there own hands.
Anyone that is going to be a good owner isn't going to do what you are describing.I will say for most of us we start at the lowest and depending on the reaction or no reaction we move up a level until the dog notices the stim.There are going to be the occasion that you have a high strung dog that at times need a higher stim but no dog should cry or cower to the stim only take note of it and look to you for the rest of the direction.
Even when using for training you are still working with the dog.You don't just hold the button down and hope the dog reads your mind.You still have to give a command and wait for a response.It just shapes them to do it.
I bet my bond with my dog is no different than your bond with your dogs.If I disappear out of Athena's sight she finds me.She doesn't snuggle but that is just her, it has nothing to do with our bond.

My question about the invisa fence was just a comparison.I know they aren't a good idea.I worry more about things getting into my yard and hurting my dogs than my dogs getting out and hurting something.
I just want to know why people that use them don't get the crap we get for using the remote collars?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:But to unilaterally dismiss any tool that might be very useful in training a dog that might some day save his life, I'm not willing to do that.


All the tools that are available to us as trainers are exactly just that, tools. A tool is neither good nor bad in itself - it's good or bad through the way in which it is used. Even a flat collar can become a device of pain and torture in the hands of someone using it as such.

To rule out specific tools because you are not knowledgeable about their use or have emotions about the tool based on what you have seen or heard is to limit yourself as a trainer. Keep an open mind and look at new tools, being used properly in the hands of experienced people. Ask them lots of questions. Be willing to learn and understand the tools. Then, if there comes a point in training where you may need to be able to do something different, you can make a smart and informed decision whether to use it or not.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: HistorianAll the tools that are available to us as trainers are exactly just that, tools. A tool is neither good nor bad in itself - it's good or bad through the way in which it is used. Even a flat collar can become a device of pain and torture in the hands of someone using it as such.
> 
> To rule out specific tools because you are not knowledgeable about their use or have emotions about the tool based on what you have seen or heard is to limit yourself as a trainer. Keep an open mind and look at new tools, being used properly in the hands of experienced people. Ask them lots of questions. Be willing to learn and understand the tools. Then, if there comes a point in training where you may need to be able to do something different, you can make a smart and informed decision whether to use it or not.


Well said!

I adopted a 16 mo. old dog that was not taught boundries, had no manners and was extremely mouthy. I took him to an obedience facility that used the Volhard methods. Phoenix did well w/ the methods when there were NO distractions, but we struggled in class w/ the other dogs. He would be a huge distraction w/ his antics/barking. During one class, my trainer asked if I'd consider a prong collar. I was appalled at the thought, but trusting her, I agreed. Holy freakin' moley what a great tool in our training at that time. The prong helped Phoenix concentrate on me and not the distractions. I used that collar for the next few classes and worked to our goal of being able to train without it. It took a while, but it worked and I now use a nylon training collar for our classes. As it's been said before, a training tool, when used properly, can help with training. ANY tool can be abused. You can't dump on what other people work with unless you are in their situation.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CKWhy is it I would love to take every shock collar and strap it to the Human.


Hmm, I'll venture a guess. It's because you only know one way of using them and that's as a high level punishment device? 



> Originally Posted By: CK Does anyone really get anywhere with a shock collar?


I train police dogs, SAR dog and pets with them. I get "somewhere." If you look at competitions where precision and reliability is rewarded, you'll find that many of the top finishers have been trained with Ecollars. In the gundog world it's almost unheard of for a top finisher at the national level NOT to have had an Ecollar used to train him. 



> Originally Posted By: CK What ever happened to *bonding* with your dog?


Using an Ecollar does not preclude bonding with your dog. In fact used properly, it aids if far better than other tools or methods. 



> Originally Posted By: CK Mine would follow me to their death if I asked them, just to be with me!


Mine too. And they've all been Ecollar trained. 



> Originally Posted By: CK I have seen GSDs ( not mine ) take the shock to get to their objective. And then you have a real issue to deal with!


Me too. That's why I don't use it like that. 



> Originally Posted By: CK If bacon and praise do not do it your doing something wrong. Real wrong.


Those tools don't work for all dogs, in all situations for all behaviors that we want from our dogs. 

I'll suggest that there are ways of using an Ecollar that you don't know about and so to make general statements like these is to be off–base. I'll also suggest that you investigate other ways of using the tool than you know about. My website is a good place to start.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I prefer to encourage the dog to learn using positive reinforcement techniques.


Those techniques are great for things that they're appropriate for. But to think that they're best for all behaviors and/or all dogs, is to be wrong. 



> Originally Posted By: selzerAnd I hate being shocked. So no, I do not want to do that to my dogs.


Anthropomorphism is usually the wrong road to go down.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomI've held an electronic collar up to my throat, turned it halfway up and pushed the button. I've also tried on a prong collar on and yanked it.
> 
> Not my arm. Not my leg. My throat. Unless someone is willing to do that, they shouldn't use one.


I see no reason for this. It makes no difference if the collar is tested on your arm, your leg or your neck. I test mine every day on myself before I put it on the dog. But since my dogs work at higher levels than I first feel on my neck I test it on my hand which feels about the same level that they work with. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom But to unilaterally dismiss any tool that might be very useful in training a dog that might some day save his life, I'm not willing to do that. (Dogs that chase prey in wilderness areas is a good example of a reasonable use for an electronic collar).


Good to see that you admit some use of Ecollars. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom I won't get into it with those "experts" who believe that e-collars are useful for everyday training of pet dogs. I've seen firsthand that positive reinforcement training FIRST works better than positive punishment training most of the time.


I've never been happy with the designation "expert" although I've been introduced as an _"Ecollar expert"_ many times. I just know a few things. I'll disagree that _"+R works better than positive punishment training most of the time."_ It works better _ for some things. _but not for everything. And just to remind you, Ecollars work on TWO phases of OC (Operant Conditioning), +P and –R. Add in some praise, treats, play, toys, etc. and you've got three of the four sides of OC covered. 

Training works best for most things that is balanced. That is, a mix of punishment and reinforcement is used. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> But to be close-minded about prongs or e-collars is almost as bad as those who are dismissive about clicker training.


I agree. I don't use a clicker but I use the method when it's appropriate. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom There is a spectrum upon which all of these tools may be effective. My preference is that we choose the least harmful first.


The Ecollar is probably the safest tool that exists in dog training. You can inflict some pain and do some psychological damage if they're misused but so can any tool. But the Ecollar is one tool that you can not inflict any physical damage with. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom But if you've never had a dog that got into a zone that you couldn't get him out of, be careful about dismissing any tool. Not all dogs can be easily trained just by treats.


Agreed. For many people who make statements against some tool or forms of training it's just a matter of them eventually getting the right (wrong for their methods) dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: HannibalGSDI know of instances where I would use a shock collar.
> The second instance is for when she runs the fence and barks bloody murder at the neighbor dog. I can go out and get her to quit but the moment I go in shes at it again.


I'd advise against doing this. You can increase the aggression while at the same time, shut off _the display _of aggression.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: novarobin
> I suspect Lou Castle will be along shortly...


Feel free to drop me a line if you ever think there's something that needs to be addressed or if someone has a question that I can answer.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier CK wrote,


> Quote: I have seen GSDs ( not mine ) take the shock to get to their objective. And then you have a real issue to deal with!.





> Originally Posted By: LisaTThat describes Max, and I think also is the cause for many of his neck issues.


I think we've had this discussion before LisaT. As I recall you've never been able to supply the slightest bit of support for this opinion. 

In the past you've written this


> Quote: No, he has no diagnosis. I suspect that it is damage from previous training methods -- shock collar, prong, and choke, all most likely used improperly. *I tend to think it was the e-collar that left permanent damage, but I will never know for sure. * [Emphasis added]


It's much more likely that any physical damage he received was from the prong and the choke. There is NOT EVEN ONE Ecollar study that's shown ANY long term physical injury from Ecollars.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerIt sounds like chasing cars, and game, and livestock could be managed by not allowing the dog to run. It is a containment issue.


As you say, containment is a management issue. And management always breaks down. We're human and occasionally we make mistakes. We forget to latch the gate. We forget that the dog is in the yard and leave it open. We know that the dog is in the house so we leave it open and someone else lets the dog out. Children makes these mistakes quite frequently. And so I suggest that management not replace training; 1but instead that it supplement training. It's easy to use a protocol that I developed to stop this sort of chasing and then, even if the dog gets out, he doesn’t chase these things.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CKOk, as a last resort, e collar or needle, Ok.
> 
> You can talk me into that. Some dogs may be challenged.


Good that you allow for some use of the tool. 



> Originally Posted By: CKBut not because someone is lazy and collects a dog like an ornament.


I've never understood this _"lazy"_ comment. It does takes less work to train a dog with an Ecollar but by no means is it automatic. It still takes work and thinking.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: novarobin
> Still waiting for Lou


Hey! Gimme a break, It's only been one day! lol


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> 
> While I agree that a low level of shock may be perceived as pleasant; I disagree that a shock collar can be so precisely controlled that the shock will always be perceived as pleasant.


While I don't use the Ecollar like this myself there are some who do. Some of them are using them in Iraq with EDD dogs.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: markstevenYou know you can get an E-collar without the shock mode. several offer an audible tone and then a vibration not a shock with adjustible levels. is that severe or inhumane? i dont think so.


Quite a few people are using the vibration that some models and brands of Ecollars offer for training. But there can be problems with doing that. One is that some dogs PANIC when they feel the vibe. It's more aversive to them than the highest level of stim that most Ecollars offer. Other dogs simply ignore it. There's only one brand of Ecollar that I'd recommend that features vibe that can be adjusted. That's the collar from Unleashed Technology. With that collar you might be able to work with the dogs that panic. But you wouldn't be able do anything with the ones that ignore the stim. 

Unless you're using the UT brand, if a dog has been trained with the vibe (of the quality brands only Dogtra offers the vibe) and he gets distracted, you're pretty much done. You can't turn it up to get his attention if he's ignoring it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGI'll leave that answer for Lou.


HEY again! Don't be afraid to say the things you know that I'm going to say! What if I was on vacation? LOL


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CKWhy is it I would love to take every shock collar and strap it to the Human.


If they're using it properly, they'd most likely be happy to let you do that at the setting they use for their dog. 



> Originally Posted By: CKDoes anyone really get anywhere with a shock collar?


In a word, yes.



> Originally Posted By: CKWhat ever happened to *bonding* with your dog? Mine would follow me to their death if I asked them, just to be with me!


You think those that dogs trained with the use of prongs or e-collars don't bond just as closely with their people? If so, I invite you to come meet my pups.



> Originally Posted By: CKI have seen GSDs ( not mine ) take the shock to get to their objective. And then you have a real issue to deal with!


You've witnessed the e-collar being used incorrectly then.



> Originally Posted By: CKIf bacon and praise do not do it your doing something wrong.Real wrong.


Find a reputable e-collar trainer in your area and ask to watch his/her training a dog.

The prong or the e-collar can be used in a very humane way - especially with dogs who are not food motivated.

Just like you don't live with bacon flowing from your fingertips, most don't use the e-collar or prong except for training and , I think, praise is an _essential_ ingredient in any successful training exercise .

Me, I take issue with those who use broad generalities to characterize a training method that they have not thoroughly explored.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hey Lou! Thanks for dropping in! Good to see you are still around!


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Trauma goes wild when he spots the e-collar in my hand. He knows he is going out to train. If he hated the collar I doubt very seriously that he would be so willing to sit there and let me put it on him. 

Same with all the other dogs I have trained with an e-collar. They know what the collar is before you ever put it on them if you have ever "SHOCKED" them any at all.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Invisible fences may keep your dog in, but does not keep other dogs or people out. If the dog does go through it, he will not come back.


The main reason that I don't care for these tools. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom The problem is that the collars CAN be used on higher and higher shock levels. Well, part of the problem is that.


Most tools can be used at _"higher and higher … levels."_ The limit of how hard a leash correction you can give is limited only but your strength and hand speed. I've seen dogs flipped upside down by harsh leash corrections. The equivalent with treats is to over feed. Most of the dogs that I see, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, are greatly overweight. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom If you are going to bother to train the dog, why use the gadget?


Do you mean the clicker? Lol. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Most people are going to start out with good intentions and then in a few hours or minutes crank it up.


I think that they'll see that what they're doing is not having the desired effect. Then they'll either pack it away, return it to the store or do some research. If they put "Ecollar" into Google my website comes up near the top of the list. If you search for "shock collar" the Wiki site comes up in the top ten or so sites. There's a link to my website at the end of that article. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Suddenly we have bred dogs that cannot be trained without using prong collars or shock collars.


It's called progress. It wasn't too long ago that this medium didn't even exist. But few are advocating that we go backwards. The Ecollar is here now and it doesn't show any sign of going away. Education as to proper use is key now. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Hmmmmm. I guess before there were shock collars and prong collars these dogs were just taken out back and shot.


I know that there are many dogs that have been PTS because their trainers could not fix their issues. I've worked with many problems. NEVER have I recommended that a dog be killed.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AllieGI'll leave that answer for Lou.
> ...


I don't always interpret things the way they should so I was leaving it to you.I just remember you agreeing the tone is not advised,if your going to use the tone it should be your voice.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

CK - I can understand your emotional reaction to the concept of a shock collar. The thought of using electrical shock to train or control a dog seems barbaric, doesn't it? And it seems that there have been an increase in posts regarding the use of shock in training lately. I, too, hate to think that people would choose shock instead of other methods that work just as well for some behaviors. But each dog and each situation is unique to a certain extent, and while treats and praise and proper use of positive reinforcement is extremely effective and, for me, will always be my first choice in training techniques - there ARE times when less comfortable methods will provide compliance when +R does not.

When you look at training and the use of tools from a logical standpoint, the shock collar is not any harsher than the finger on the button allows it to be. A person who chooses to use a shock collar, and does it with forethought and consideration, research and honest assessment of their dog's needs and their own willingness to follow a prescribed plan carefully and consistently, can use a shock collar with a minimal amount of pain/discomfort to their dog and give their dog freedoms it may not otherwise ever attain.

In my opinion, there IS a place for the use of these types of tools. Personally I don't think that the shock collar is the place to start training, but there are some practical applications that it fits into well. In my situation, the collar allowed my chow off-leash freedoms that would have been denied otherwise. When she came into maturity, she began to test her freedom by occasionally taking off into the woods (and yes, I was outside with her - I never let my dogs outside free without my presence). She also felt she could challenge moose. This was a dog with over a year of consistent recall training in her. Her competition recalls were perfect and never a problem, but off-leash free play time started giving her the opportunity to zoom off and explore on her own. I could have chosen to confine her, keep her on a long line or otherwise limit her freedom, but this dog loved to run and play and so I chose the shock collar so that she could maintain that freedom and I could maintain some control.

That doesn't mean that I just slapped the shock collar on her, turned it up and punished her if she tried to take off. I went through a pre-planned, logical and consistent training program. I researched and fully understood the behavioral concepts behind what I was choosing to use. I started with the collar set at the lowest possible level that my dog responded to - her response was to twitch an ear - and the initial training was done on-leash so that I had full control of her actions and could pair the proper actions with the stimulation from the collar. 

I believe that a good trainer is always fully aware and considerate of what they're putting the dog through. I believe that a good trainer does NOT want to cause a dog pain or discomfort, but understands that there's a natural level of discomfort that goes with some consequences in life. I believe that a good trainer tries their best to limit the discomfort they provide their dog, and that they never downplay the pain/discomfort that a training tool might cause a dog. I believe that a good trainer doesn't enjoy using a corrective collar but will understand when a dog needs the corrections the collar can provide. And I believe that in the hands of a good trainer, a shock collar is a powerful and useful tool that is used sparingly and thoughtfully.

These are my beliefs and I know that there are others who use shock collars much more casually and with less concern, but that's their problem (and unfortunately the problem of the dogs they train, too).

The main concern I have with shock collars is that they have the potential to cause a horrifying amount of pain. A good shock collar has numerous levels that increase the shock in very tiny amounts, so that you can find the precise (and lowest) level that is effective for the dog you're training. But those same collars tend to go to extremely HIGH levels of shock. The Dogtra collar I have was billed as having 100 levels, and I was informed later that it had 137 (I had not bothered to check how high it went as I had no reason to ever go anywhere near that high!). In using the collar on myself, I start to feel the shock around 10 or so, and by the time it hits 20 it's becoming quite unpleasant (even just on a nick - continual mode is much worse). The dogs I've used it on vary between 15 and 25 on the dial. At 25 the shock, on continuous mode for just a second or two, is painful to me. 

I can't even imagine what 50 feels like, let alone 100 or 137!! So I find that the potential for misuse, on the part of the human, is extreme with these collars. Like many of us, I've seen people "training" and their dogs are screaming and cowering from the pain of the shock. Since these collars are available to any Joe Blow who wants one, there's just a potential for abuse that could be incredibly bad. And that's my biggest complaint about shock collars. While I hate to see any sort of regulation, allowing the general public a tool that so easily provides an extreme level of pain to their dogs just seems neglectful. I hate to see a tool like this in the hands of someone who doesn't care or doesn't have a real concept of the level of pain they're providing.

CK, I'm glad that you have an aversion to shock collars, because that tells me that you are very unlikely to ever abuse the tool even if you someday chose to use one. I'd rather see people uncomfortable with the thought of using shock than to be casual about it and thinking that shock is the BEST method for general training. There's nothing wrong with wanting to avoid pain/discomfort in training our dogs. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I really liked your post right up until here. lol



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest These are my beliefs and I know that there are others who use shock collars much more casually and with less concern, but that's their problem (and unfortunately the problem of the dogs they train, too).


It's really not a problem for me or the dogs that I train. At the level of stim that I use the dog can barely perceive it. You described an _"ear flick."_ I hardly think that's anything to worry about. Probably the most common response is that the dog sits and scratches the same as if a flea was biting him. I don't know anyone who gets upset at the thought of _the horrible discomfort _that their dog must be in when being bitten by a single flea. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest The main concern I have with shock collars is that they have the potential to cause a horrifying amount of pain.


Think of the potential pain that a pinch collar wielded by a strong person with good hand speed can inflict. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest A good shock collar has numerous levels that increase the shock in very tiny amounts, so that you can find the precise (and lowest) level that is effective for the dog you're training. But those same collars tend to go to extremely HIGH levels of shock. The Dogtra collar I have was billed as having 100 levels, and I was informed later that it had 137


It's actually 127 levels. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest In using the collar on myself, I start to feel the shock around 10 or so, and by the time it hits 20 it's becoming quite unpleasant (even just on a nick - continual mode is much worse). The dogs I've used it on vary between 15 and 25 on the dial. At 25 the shock, on continuous mode for just a second or two, is painful to me.


There's really no correlation between the level of stim that a human will first feel and that which a dog will first feel. I've worked dogs who felt the stim at a 4 and others who felt it at a 60. Most humans first perceive a 20-30 but I've had one who could not feel the highest level! 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest I can't even imagine what 50 feels like, let alone 100 or 137!!


I've felt the highest level that an Ecollar has. It's happened at the bar (when I indulged in such things) after doing a seminar for SWAT K-9's. After a few drinks someone said, "Hey let's get them Ecollars and see who can take the highest level!" Foolishly I played that game. At the highest level when the box is on my forearm, my fingers are involuntarily clenching and unclenching. Hurts a lot! 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest So I find that the potential for misuse, on the part of the human, is extreme with these collars.


Oddly I don't. I find _"the potential for misuse"_ to lie much more with other tools. With the Ecollar usually owners see that it's not working and simply stop using it. They either put it away, return it for a refund (quality Ecollar manufacturers give full refunds if it comes back within 30 days) or start looking for information on the Web. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Like many of us, I've seen people "training" and their dogs are screaming and cowering from the pain of the shock. Since these collars are available to any Joe Blow who wants one, there's just a potential for abuse that could be incredibly bad.


I've seen the exact same thing from buckle collars, chain collars and pinch collars. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest And that's my biggest complaint about shock collars. While I hate to see any sort of regulation, allowing the general public a tool that so easily provides an extreme level of pain to their dogs just seems neglectful. I hate to see a tool like this in the hands of someone who doesn't care or doesn't have a real concept of the level of pain they're providing.


I always wonder why people say this about the Ecollar but say NOTHING about other tools that can do the same thing? AND these other tools can cause physical damage, while the Ecollar can not!? 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
> I'd rather see people uncomfortable with the thought of using shock than to be casual about it and thinking that shock is the BEST method for general training. There's nothing wrong with wanting to avoid pain/discomfort in training our dogs.


There is discomfort present with EVERY tool and method that exists in training dogs. Many just don't want to admit it.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> Oddly I don't. I find "the potential for misuse" to lie much more with other tools.


Bull. Good gosh, Petco sells e-collars. Last year, I was chatting with my 75 year old aunt over the phone asking her about her young malamute/GSD mix that she had recently adopted from the pound. She told me that she was excited because she was waiting for the training collar to come in the mail. I asked her what she was talking about (assuming she meant a prong collar). 

She told me that she ordered this: 



> Quote:
> 
> A well behaved dog with one button ease.
> 
> ...


http://www.petco.com/product/14251/Innotek-Basic-Remote-Trainer.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

My aunt has ALWAYS had GSDs. But she's older now, and gosh, this seemed to *guarantee* simpler training for her adolescent dog. 

I told her that when the unit came in the mail, she was to take it down to the local Petco and get her money back. Then she could train her new dog the way she had trained all of her other ones.

I assure you, my aunt is no fool. She wasn't looking for the easy way out. But there is no way in heck that she is qualified to use an e-collar.

All across America, dogs are being subjected to e-collars by owners who have no clue what the heck they're doing. When you can pick one up at Petco, and the instructions aren't for forced retrieves but for basic everyday obedience, don't tell me that e-collars aren't being misused. 

And yes, I see prongs being misused almost daily too; almost always the dog is just pulling through it. But the dog has the option on some level not to pull when he's wearing a prong collar. He chooses to. A dog doesn't have the option not to get shocked when he has an incompetent trainer holding the remote. He may have no idea what's being asked of him. When was the last time you sat in a Basic Obedience class? It's obvious a lot of times that the dog really doesn't understand what's being asked but the owner is certain that the dog "Knows" the command. Now imagine that dog being shocked for "refusing" to comply. At least in a class, the instructor will come over and intercede. 

But e-collars (at least the less expensive ones) come with an instruction book and phone support. No reason to go to a class at all! You know what goes on with the dogs you train, Lou. But it's not like that in many backyards across the country. 


BTW, I met my aunt's dog when we were visiting in August. She's a lovely very sweet well trained dog. No e-collar was necessary.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Oddly I don't. I find "the potential for misuse" to lie much more with other tools.





> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Bull.


_"Bull?"_ Pretty rude. This is how these conversations often go. It's sad really but people often find it hard to remain polite, professional and courteous. 

It's an opinion and one that's supported by hundreds of personal experiences with pet owners and Ecollars. I'll put my experience with this up against yours with your _"75 year old aunt"_ anytime. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Good gosh, Petco sells e-collars.


They're available in many places, including the Net. Of course this has nothing to do with "the potential for misuse."



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Last year, I was chatting with my 75 year old aunt over the phone asking her about her young malamute/GSD mix that she had recently adopted from the pound. She told me that she was excited because she was waiting for the training collar to come in the mail. I asked her what she was talking about (assuming she meant a prong collar).
> 
> She told me that she ordered this:


3K9Mom cites some comments from an ad for Innotek Ecollars. I fail to see any connection to this discussion about "the potential for misuse." 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom My aunt has ALWAYS had GSDs. But she's older now, and gosh, this seemed to *guarantee* simpler training for her adolescent dog.


Still no connection with "the potential for misuse." But I'll agree with Innotek that, when used properly, the Ecollar DOES just about "guarantee" simpler training for her dog. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom I told her that when the unit came in the mail, she was to take it down to the local Petco and get her money back. Then she could train her new dog the way she had trained all of her other ones.
> 
> I assure you, my aunt is no fool. She wasn't looking for the easy way out. * But there is no way in heck that she is qualified to use an e-collar. * [Emphasis added]


She would be if she read my articles! lol



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom All across America, dogs are being subjected to e-collars by owners who have no clue what the heck they're doing.


The EXACT same statement can be made about ALL dog training tools. At least they can't cause any physical injury with the Ecollar. The same can't be said for many other dog training tools. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom When you can pick one up at Petco, and the instructions aren't for forced retrieves but for basic everyday obedience, don't tell me that e-collars aren't being misused.


Nice Straw Man argument. This is where you attribute a position to someone else that they haven't taken and then deride them for it. NO ONE has said that Ecollars aren't being misused. I'd suggest that you take another read of what HAS BEEN said. It's that Ecollars are no more prone to misuse than many other tools in dog training. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom And yes, I see prongs being misused almost daily too; almost always the dog is just pulling through it. But the dog has the option on some level not to pull when he's wearing a prong collar. He chooses to. A dog doesn't have the option not to get shocked when he has an incompetent trainer holding the remote.


There are many people giving too harsh corrections with buckle collars, chain collars and pinch collars. It's NOT as you characterize it, that the dog is just pulling against it. As you say, _"A dog doesn't have the option not to get [corrected] when he has an incompetent trainer holding the [leash]. _ 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom He may have no idea what's being asked of him.


Ditto when other tools are misused. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom When was the last time you sat in a Basic Obedience class? It's obvious a lot of times that the dog really doesn't understand what's being asked but the owner is certain that the dog "Knows" the command. Now imagine that dog being shocked for "refusing" to comply. At least in a class, the instructor will come over and intercede.


Now imagine that same dog, outside of a class, being overcorrected with any type of physical correction collar. Not only is he in pain, but it's possible that he'll suffer physical injuries as well. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom But e-collars (at least the less expensive ones) come with an instruction book and phone support.


When was the last time you saw that kind of support for any of the other types of collars that I've mentioned? NEVER! 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom No reason to go to a class at all! You know what goes on with the dogs you train, Lou. But it's not like that in many backyards across the country.


I'll disagree and there are plenty of letters from people who have found my website and used the articles to train their dogs to their complete satisfaction and without any of the misuse that you imagine. Those folks who are misusing other types of collars often do so for the rest of the dog's life. I know that people who shock dogs and don't get results stop using them quickly. 



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom BTW, I met my aunt's dog when we were visiting in August. She's a lovely very sweet well trained dog. No e-collar was necessary.


Ecollars are far from necessary. We trained dogs for thousands of years before they were invented. But they're here now and they show no sign of going away. Rather than write posts like this opposing their use, which will do no good, people who want to try them will, IO think that the correct response is education.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

LOU CASTLE

What exactly do you teach? Train?
What are you qualified in?
What is/was your job?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

"The articles do not mention praising the dog except for a few situations in the training where it's specifically necessary. This is not the place to learn to give praise to your dog. This is where you can learn to use the Ecollar. "

You sound like you dont bond or connect with your dogs/dogs you train.
You just sound like your there to get the job done, no matter what.
?
Which is & isnt a bad thing.
But ecollars? For SAR dogs?
I dont use ANYTHING on my dog.
He doesnt even wear a flat collar.
All I give him is praise & his tennis ball.
Hes pretty well behaved if you ask me without any methods of harsh training.
Police dogs & family dogs are a bit different in their training.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Back to the original OP.. 

Sounds to me like the point of the post was to say e-collars are abusive and that those that use them are incapable of training a dog in a positive manner. IE, either inferior trainer at best and abusive in the employment of this training aid.

I think the OP has little or no experience with the device or those who use it responsibly. I can understand a knee jerk reaction to the idea of being "shocked."

But honestly, most shelling out the $$ for the e-collar do at least have 'training' in mind. 

Seems to me that more dogs suffer daily from owners who don't even care enough to train, contain (strays), neglect or willful abuse.

But that's another topic all together.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RLOU CASTLE
> 
> What exactly do you teach? Train?
> What are you qualified in?
> What is/was your job?


I'm (obviously) not Lou Castle...but his website is listed in his sig line...There is an about Lou tab (I just read it! - never had before, but you got me curious)


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RLOU CASTLE
> 
> What exactly do you teach? Train?
> What are you qualified in?
> What is/was your job?


You can find a brief resume HERE. 

Now may I have the same information about you please?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Angel quotes, apparently from my website. It's customary to give the link for such quotations so the accuracy of the quoting can be verified, but Angel doesn't bother with this.


> Quote: The articles do not mention praising the dog except for a few situations in the training where it's specifically necessary. This is not the place to learn to give praise to your dog. This is where you can learn to use the Ecollar.





> Originally Posted By: Angel RYou sound like you dont bond or connect with your dogs/dogs you train.


I have no idea what you base this comment on but it's wrong. The statement you quoted merely points out that I've not given direction for giving praise to a dog that's being trained per my articles. Of course, merely giving praise has little to do with bonding. That's accomplished by being a fair and just leader. 

There's an article about this on my site. You can read it HERE.  

And you can see just how fast a bond occurs with an Ecollar used, per my methods IN THIS ARTICLE. It's a story about a highly fearful dog that had the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) used on her. They failed and she was rehabbed with an Ecollar. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R You just sound like your there to get the job done, no matter what.


_"No matter what"_ the issue is, no matter what has been done with the dog before I got there, I've never failed to get training done or to fix an issue that the owner had. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R Which is & isnt a bad thing.
> But ecollars? For SAR dogs?


Yep. Many of them don't recall and chase game instead of searching. Many can't be called back from those chases. I fix both of those issues. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R I dont use ANYTHING on my dog.
> He doesnt even wear a flat collar.
> All I give him is praise & his tennis ball.


That's great. But it has nothing to do with this discussion. Your dog is not the only dog in the world. What works on him may not work on other dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R Hes pretty well behaved if you ask me without any methods of harsh training.


I don't know your standards so I don't know what _"well behaved"_ means to you. I also know that the Ecollar is among the most gentle of tools when used as I do the work or someone uses my methods. You, because you don't know what I do, think it's harsh. And perhaps in your experience that's been the case. But it's flawed thinking to assume that there's only one way to use the tool. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R Police dogs & family dogs are a bit different in their training.


I don't think so. Except for the fact that police dogs are sometimes called on to bite people, the work is virtually the same. "Sit" is the same thing to a police dog or a pet. Ditto for any other OB command.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am close minded on this topic because I have yet to have a dog that I could not train and manage without shock collars. 

I prefer setting a dog up to succeed and then praising it. I do not like things that profess to eliminate behaviors instantaneiously. I do not like power steering devices for dogs. 

I do not like the fact that way too many people park shock collars and prong collars on their dogs and never graduate from them. 

I cannot use them in the ring, so why in the world would I ever want to get in the position of relying on them. 

People say that if we do not use these items, then we want to go backwards. I disagree. I think using Ceasar's alpha methods, torture devices, are going backwards. It is about giving the dog some form of unpleasantness when it does what we do not want it to do, rather than giving it a reward for correct behavior. THAT in my opinion is going backwards. Just because the devices of torture are more sophisticated, it does not mean that we are not going backwards. 

Suggesting that my not liking to be shocked so I won't shock my dog is anthromorphising is rediculous. I do not like to be hit or yelled at, so I do not hit or yell at my dog, is that anthromorphising too? Anthromorphising is when you say that your dog will believe that you do not like him any more if you yell at him. Or when you let your dog sit on a chair at the dinner table, because otherwise he will not feel like a part of the family. 

Frankly, a good leader does not need to whip, or shock, or scream at, or yank a critter to get it to do the right thing. Good leaders do not fight with their animals. They stand up straight, reward good behavior, ignore bad behavior, and are the source of all that is good in the world. 

I do not make my dogs perform for their meals. They are allowed on my sofa, my easy chair and my bed. No they do not rule my household. I rarely use treats, especially on adult dogs. Praise is sufficient. Changing the tone of my voice to indicate something wrong works too. I prefer the term leader, to alpha. I own dogs not wolves. I do not need clickers, jars of pennies, shock collars, prong collars, special harnesses, haltis or anything besides a collar and a lead. I do not ask my dogs to do things, I tell them. But I also thank/praise them for doing it. I do not nag, repeat commands over and over again, and I do not give commands that I cannot enforce.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Angel R, my dogs also run naked most of the time. I use a leash and collar for training, but they listen to me and go where I want them to go without leash or collar. 

I think people resort to training crutches way too soon, before the give positive reinforcement a try. 

Just because a person has had success with a tool and has a method a website, etc., or has written a book and has a TV show, it does not mean they are right. Not all training methods are right for every dog/handler team, if an individual cannot learn to lead, then they can usually be taught to drive. Prongs and shock collars and haltis, etc are for drivers.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI am close minded on this topic because I have yet to have a dog that I could not train and manage without shock collars.


I have no idea how many dogs you've trained so I don't know how telling this is. If you've trained thousands it's one thing. But if you've trained less than a dozen, it might not be. I used to have this Ecollar argument with someone who vehemently opposed them. She was a SAR volunteer who had trained two or three dogs successfully using only the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig). She said, as some here have said, that she'd "never use an Ecollar." I responded, as I have here, that was fine with me but there were many who did not have her training skills. One night, out of the blue, she called me. She said that she had gotten a new dog and was unable to get him to stop barking no matter what she did. She said that she "needed an Ecollar." 

After some discussion I decided that all that was needed was a bark collar (much less expensive) and that's what I suggested. She agreed and all was well for a while. Then I got another call. NOW she said that she "needed an Ecollar." She was a highly successful trainer but in choosing her new dog she'd selected one with more drive than her previous dogs and her methods "just weren't working." She got an Ecollar, got some help with it and was able to certify this dog for SAR. There's a testimonial letter from her on my site that says in part


> Quote:Lou helped me when I needed it most. When I was on the brink of washing out an incredible little dog due to her crittering issues and the fact that when she was on a critter trail, no way could I get her back. I was done with this 9 month old pup that I spent a lot of $$ on.
> 
> I talked with Lou at LENGTH and even recorded his words. I still didn't feel comfortable putting an e collar on my dog. I ended up taking her to a fairly local (3 `1/2 hours away) field dog trainer. I watched the trainer work other dogs and decided I would leave Charley there for a week of "boot camp".
> 
> ...





> Originally Posted By: selzer I prefer setting a dog up to succeed and then praising it.


Me too. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion though. Why do some people think that using an Ecollar precludes a trainer from doing this? 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I do not like things that profess to eliminate behaviors instantaneiously. I do not like power steering devices for dogs.


I have yet to see anyone claim _"to eliminate behaviors instantaneously."_ I do like _"power steering devices for dogs."_ many people find them highly desirable. Many people want them. I'd bet that just about everyone here has power steering on their car and that's because they make things easier. Do you think that "harder is necessarily better?" 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I do not like the fact that way too many people park shock collars and prong collars on their dogs and never graduate from them.


There's a vast difference between management, what you describe, and insurance, which I advocate. In the first case the dog is not trained, he's managed. And that's hardly limited to Ecollars (as you say with your mention of prong collars). 

The difference is that in the first case the dog won't perform without the tool. In the second he will but it's worn in case, he decides not to perform. Since dogs are living creatures, they can decide at anytime to disobey a command. At times such disobedience can be life threatening, as when the dog fails to recall from a chase, especially if there are busy roads in the area. Having the Ecollar on in such cases, as insurance, means that even if the dog decides to disobey, the owner can reach out and touch him, to remind him that compliance is mandatory. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I cannot use them in the ring, so why in the world would I ever want to get in the position of relying on them.


MANY people who compete in various sports train with Ecollars. Pretending, as you do here, that dogs must have them on all the time or they won't obey, is silly. The police dogs that I train as well as the SAR dogs must certify without the collars on. If, what you insinuate was the case, that would be impossible. 

There's no reason that anyone has _"to get in the position of relying on them."_ There's an article on my website that specifically addresses weaning the dogs off the Ecollar. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer People say that if we do not use these items, then we want to go backwards. I disagree.


Who's said that in this discussion? I must have missed a post. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I think using Ceasar's alpha methods, torture devices, are going backwards.


When did Cesar enter the discussion? Are you calling Ecollars _"torture devices?"_ 



> Originally Posted By: selzer It is about giving the dog some form of unpleasantness when it does what we do not want it to do, rather than giving it a reward for correct behavior.


I love the way that people who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" pretend that what they do is all wonder and light! People who use those methods, you included, use punishment and aversives, just as everyone who trains a dog does. It's impossible to train a dog without them. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer THAT in my opinion is going backwards.


Such lack of candor is truly, _"going backwards."_ 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Just because the devices of torture are more sophisticated, it does not mean that we are not going backwards.


I think you just called Ecollars _"devices of torture"_ AGAIN. How absurd. How rude. What a remarkable display of a lack of knowledge! 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Suggesting that my not liking to be shocked so I won't shock my dog is anthromorphising is rediculous.


That's exactly what it is. You're saying that you dislike of being shocked and so your dog must feel the same way. That's the definition of anthropomorphism; attributing human characteristics to an animal. You don't like something and so you assume that your dog won't like it either. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I do not like to be hit or yelled at, so I do not hit or yell at my dog, is that anthromorphising too?


Yes, it is. LOL. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Anthromorphising is when you say that your dog will believe that you do not like him any more if you yell at him. Or when you let your dog sit on a chair at the dinner table, because otherwise he will not feel like a part of the family.


Those are examples of anthropomorphism as well. But it's not necessary to play semantics. Many dogs like to eat their own poop. But I doubt that many owners would enjoy it much. Dogs are not humans. Humans are not dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Frankly, a good leader does not need to whip, or shock, or scream at, or yank a critter to get it to do the right thing.


Interesting how you group all these things together. Really impossible to have an intelligent conversation with someone who display such a lack of logic and reason. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Good leaders do not fight with their animals.


Who said anything about fighting? 



> Originally Posted By: selzer They stand up straight, reward good behavior, ignore bad behavior


Good leaders do NOT ignore bad behavior. They don't in the world of wild canids and they shouldn't in the pack that we form with our dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer and are the source of all that is good in the world.


Good leaders are fair, just and balanced. That means that they use BOTH reinforcement AND punishment. Being a leader is NOT just about being nice and providing good. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I do not make my dogs perform for their meals.


Me either. What brought this up? 



> Originally Posted By: selzer They are allowed on my sofa, my easy chair and my bed.


Mine are not but this has nothing to do with this discussion in the slightest. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer No they do not rule my household.


Mine either. Can you show us some connection to this discussion? 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I rarely use treats, especially on adult dogs. Praise is sufficient.


Praise works for some dogs. Treats work for some dogs. Toys work for some dogs. NONE of them work for some dogs. Again, not sure what this has to do with this discussion. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Changing the tone of my voice to indicate something wrong works too.


It doesn't work for all dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I prefer the term leader, to alpha.


Me too. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I own dogs not wolves.


Me too. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I do not need clickers, jars of pennies, shock collars, prong collars, special harnesses, haltis or anything besides a collar and a lead.


I don't need any of those things either. But some of them make training easier and some of them make training possible for many dogs that won't respond to your collar and lead. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I do not ask my dogs to do things,


Me too. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I tell them. But I also thank/praise them for doing it. I do not nag, repeat commands over and over again, and I do not give commands that I cannot enforce.


Me too. 

Let's remember that this discussion is not about you and your dogs. It's great that you've accomplished as much as you have without the tools you dismiss. But not everyone is you. Not everyone has your skills, whatever they may be, and not everyone has your dogs. I'd bet that you spend much more time working with and training your dogs than does the average pet owner (whatever that means). It's silly to expect that everyone will. And so it's just as silly to expect that they'll use your methods and achieve the same or similar results that you've achieved.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I think people resort to training crutches way too soon, before the give positive reinforcement a try.


Of course it's impossible to train a dog using only +R. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Just because a person has had success with a tool and has a method a website, etc., or has written a book and has a TV show, it does not mean they are right.


No but without at least a pretty good degree of success one does not get published or get a TV show. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Not all training methods are right for every dog/handler team,


Yes, we know. And so I wonder why you keep referring to yourself and your dogs? it seems that you're trying to extend your success to others. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer if an individual cannot learn to lead, then they can usually be taught to drive. Prongs and shock collars and haltis, etc are for drivers.


No idea what this means. Care to explain?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think part of the problem here is a huge apples and oranges comparison.

Prong collars etc are being claimed that the "trainer will step in during class" if it's being over-used or done improperly, while e-collar users just "open the box and start pushing buttons"

I know plenty of people with prong, and the ever popular choke chain, that have never taken a training class in their lives. Shoot, a choke chain is $5 at wal-mart. The few people I know who have used e-collars are at least motivated to read the instructions because they shelled out $$ for it.
I've seen lots of dogs permanently injured by choke chains because people basically use them to HANG their dogs. I have personally shown more than 1 person how to use them correctly and they are always amazed that you are supposed to just give a quick pop of the collar. (also the reason that many "common" people think Prongs are so cruel. they think that you strangle the dog with a Prong like they do with a Choke)

I can easily see where a very reactive or shy dog would benefit from an e-collar. The correction isn't coming from the handler (in the dog's mind) so it's more likely that they will associate the correction with the behavior, not with the person.

so, put me on the side that says any tool can be mis-used and any tool can be beneficial if used correctly. There is nothing wrong with having more than 1 method "just in case" 
I'm also not sure why everyone seems to be assuming that, if you use an e-collar (or other correction) that it automatically means that you don't also praise correct behavior? I've found that a combo works best. Praise and high value rewards to teach something new, correction after it's known but not obeyed coupled with rewards for correct behavior.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

If Paige can be in control w/o a shock collar than any dog can.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I can easily see where a very reactive or shy dog would benefit from an e-collar. The correction isn't coming from the handler (in the dog's mind) so it's more likely that they will associate the correction with the behavior, not with the person.


That's going to depend a lot on the skill and timing of the handler. I've seen quite a few dogs seriously mentally messed up by poor e-collar training. They don't associate the shock with either the handler or the behavior. They don't know _where_ it's coming from or how to avoid it and become extremely skittish and reactive. It's very sad to watch.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I just noticed this thread. (Usually only on the schutzhund threads) I'm sure it's been said here, but dion't have the time to read all 3 pages, the E-collar is actually the most humane training tool out there. That is when used poperly. Although like any tool it can be used inhumanely. Unfortunately it's a tool that can be purchased by anyone. Anyone can use it wether they know what they are doing or not. The setting is supposed to be set where the dog shows annouance, NOT PAIN. An E-Collar actually does less damage to a dogs neck than a pinch or prong. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it it is no different than someone popping the line with a pinch... It also has no bearing on if you can bond with your dog.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> I've seen quite a few dogs seriously mentally messed up by poor e-collar training. They don't associate the shock with either the handler or the behavior. They don't know _where_ it's coming from or how to avoid it and become extremely skittish and reactive. It's very sad to watch.


I agree with you entirely. In the past 20 years, I've seen MANY people using shock collars and I can honestly say that EVERY SINGLE DOG I've seen "trained" with a shock collar (other than my own) were basically abused by overly-high and long-held shocking procedures. Yes, this is the fault of the human but I am sure that much more abuse goes on than I have seen (of course, logically speaking). The dogs were yelping, cowering, and obviously fearful and confused. This is the type of thing that happens when you hand someone a device (that has the potential to cause serious pain) without the person understanding the scientific rationale behind proper use.

On the other hand, I've seen even more dogs trained with prong collars, choke chains and buckle collars. None of these dogs were abused in the way that those on shock collars (described above) were. Shrugging off the concern about potential abusive use of shock collars by saying "other collars can be used just as abusively" is just a way of making an excuse for those who fear ANY criticism of shock collar training. 

It's much easier, physically, to crank up the dial and hit the button than it is to yank on a regular collar (of any type). And I've found that overall, people who are new to dog training have a tendency to over-correct and under-reward anyhow. Hand these people a shock collar without giving them the proper training, and I have zero doubt that you're going to see dogs being shocked for the wrong reasons, shocked when they don't understand, shocked at higher levels than needed, etc. 

I would prefer that people not use a prong collar or other corrective devices without proper training, either. If more people understood how to train within a dog's understanding, and using properly timed rewards, there would be a lot more happy dogs and happy people. But unfortunately many people seem to be punishment-happy.

Personally I don't believe for a minute that a dog trained primarily with corrections is going to be as bonded to its owner as a dog that is trained primarily with rewards. I've seen (and experienced) the difference first-hand. But those who train with corrections will never believe me, of course. To admit a difference in bonding would admit a failing in the tool/technique, and heaven forbid that happen. 

BTW, Lou, I've chosen not to read your drawn-out quote/response posts. That constant quoting is just irritating to me and breaks up the continuity of any response you give. It's like you can't really respond without quoting every little line so you can decide what to say (that's not meant as a dig, just my impression of it when I try to read those posts). I'm fully aware of your strong ties to shock collar training and I doubt you have anything new to add from the last time. If you do, feel free to post in a more normal manner and I'm sure many of us will read it (I'm not the only one who skips the other posts .. *L*). 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerAngel R, my dogs also run naked most of the time. I use a leash and collar for training, but they listen to me and go where I want them to go without leash or collar.
> 
> I think people resort to training crutches way too soon, before the give positive reinforcement a try.
> 
> Just because a person has had success with a tool and has a method a website, etc., or has written a book and has a TV show, it does not mean they are right. Not all training methods are right for every dog/handler team, if an individual cannot learn to lead, then they can usually be taught to drive. Prongs and shock collars and haltis, etc are for drivers.


I totally agree. I want my dog to listen for a ball/treat etc
not because of a collar.
My dog does usually everything without a leash/ collar.
I didnt really bring him up on one.
I guess if your dog totally disreguards what you say, then some kind of training must be done. (duh)
But Ecollars/ electric fences/ pinch collars are my last options.
I understand alot of people use them, and thats what fine with me, because its not my life or dog.
Its just my opinion that I wouldnt use them.
I would just reccomend that owners try positive renforcement training first.
? But thats just IMHO


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I believe he quotes to address every concern or question.It isn't to annoy anyone.I like it because I don't question what he is responding to.

I have done nothing but positive reinforcement with my dog from day one and didn't get anywhere till I seeked a trainer who was willing to work with me and show me the correct way to use the prong.I was already using the E collar correctly for what I was using it for.When I wanted to add it to our fear aggression that I had worked on all summer I seeked his advice.
FYI the totally positive training I tried all summer did not get through to my dog.She stayed in fear and we never advanced till I went with a trainer who "used" the prong and or e collar.When my dog is in the fear zone or prey zone,no treat in the world is going to get her attention.The prong or e collar does.I feel I hurt and do more harm using the prong on her than I do the e collar.When I need to correct I tend to make her yelp with the prong but with the e collar she just comes to me or looks up to me for the next direction.

Some day you certain people will end up with a dog that needs more than total positive training and I hope you are open enough to try this method.


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG Some day you certain people will end up with a dog that needs more than total positive training and I hope you are open enough to try this method.


I think this is a big issue. Not every dog in the world is like your dog that only needs praise and treats.

For anyone who thinks that e-collars are unnecessary and ineffective because THEIR dog has not needed one yet to obey, I challenge you to take a high prey drive, working line dog, set it loose off-leash in an area with squirrels and rabbits scampering around, and recall him as he is in mid-chase. And please don't say, I know my dog can do that, unless you have actually done it. 

Very few trainers have the experience or skill to recall a dog in this situation with purely positive reinforcement. Especially if the dog thinks that chasing and catching prey is way more interesting than bacon and praise. Even more so if the dog is not particularly food or toy motivated.

When you train a dog with purely positive methods and absolutely no negative methods, you are giving that dog a choice on whether or not he needs to obey. And when I call my dog off of a squirrel as he's running towards a busy road, there is NO choice for him except to obey.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Virginia
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AllieG Some day you certain people will end up with a dog that needs more than total positive training and I hope you are open enough to try this method.
> ...


I agree. However, at the same time, I think that a lot of training tools are over-used when and where they are not needed because they produce "faster" or "easier" results for a lot of trainers. It does go both ways. I would never rule any tool out because my dog has not needed it before - there may come a time where I will need it. But at the same time, I don't go straight to a tool if I can work with something else, first.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: HistorianHowever, at the same time, I think that a lot of training tools are over-used when and where they are not needed because they produce "faster" or "easier" results for a lot of trainers. It does go both ways. I would never rule any tool out because my dog has not needed it before - there may come a time where I will need it. But at the same time, I don't go straight to a tool if I can work with something else, first.










I agree. There are training tools I don't use now, but that doesn't mean I'll NEVER use them, I just haven't needed them yet. Why use something I don't need?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGI believe he quotes to address every concern or question.


Or to nitpick.







Often, individual sentences are pulled out and responded to, one at a time, removing them from the context of the paragraphs they were in. Taking a sentence out of context can completely change its meaning, so what's being responded to isn't actually what the person even meant. Not only is that irritating, it's misleading and disingenuous. For that reason, I don't read those posts either.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestI would prefer that people not use a prong collar or other corrective devices without proper training, either. If more people understood how to train within a dog's understanding, and using properly timed rewards, there would be a lot more happy dogs and happy people. But unfortunately many people seem to be punishment-happy.
> 
> Personally I don't believe for a minute that a dog trained primarily with corrections (chain choker training collar) is going to be as bonded to its owner as a dog that is trained primarily with rewards. I've seen (and experienced) the difference first-hand. But those who train with corrections will never believe me, of course. To admit a difference in bonding would admit a failing in the tool/technique, and heaven forbid that happen.


Melanie, I respectfully disagree w/ you regarding a dog being less bonded w/ it's owner than a dog primarily trained w/ rewards. Over 16 years ago, the training Dakota and I went through was correction based. You cannot tell me for one moment that he was less bonded with me than your dogs to you. I had him for nearly 14 years. This was a dog that put himself in harms way to protect me. This was a dog that followed me around everywhere and snuggled with me at night. This was not a dog that cowered when I spoke w/ a raised voice either. He was my partner in every sense of the word.



> Originally Posted By: AllieGI have done nothing but positive reinforcement with my dog from day one and didn't get anywhere till I seeked a trainer who was willing to work with me and show me the correct way to use the prong.I was already using the E collar correctly for what I was using it for.When I wanted to add it to our fear aggression that I had worked on all summer I seeked his advice.
> FYI the totally positive training I tried all summer did not get through to my dog.She stayed in fear and we never advanced till I went with a trainer who "used" the prong and or e collar.When my dog is in the fear zone or prey zone,no treat in the world is going to get her attention.The prong or e collar does.I feel I hurt and do more harm using the prong on her than I do the e collar.When I need to correct I tend to make her yelp with the prong but with the e collar she just comes to me or looks up to me for the next direction.
> Some day you certain people will end up with a dog that needs more than total positive training and I hope you are open enough to try this method.


I was not a fan of prong collars. I knew nothing about them until Phoenix. No amount of treats/rewards would pull him out of his fight drive and back to pack and focus on me in a situation w/ distractions. My trainer, who wholely believes in reward training, recognized that not EVERY dog can be trained that way and provided me w/ a TOOL to work with Phoenix. The prong collar was used STRICTLY for training. The collar allowed me to redirect Phoenix's attention. 

I think was is at that core to the discussion of this topic is that not every dog is the same and that techniques/tools that work for one dog may not work for another. At the same time, those different tools can be abused. I think we can all agree on that. BUT, you cannot condem someone for using a tool that, you (collective you that fall in this category) profess to never need or want to use. Hey, I think it's great if you have a dog that you can train solely on reward w/o collar or leash. You have to understand that while your dog will work that way, not every dog will. Not everyone gets their dog as a puppy/blank slate. Not all dogs have the same drives.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> selzer said:
> ...


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDluver4lyfe
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I get frustrated when people want to use them (shocks and prongs) on younger and younger puppies. They ask for advice and you give it and then a group of people who use the devices jump all over you for having a less than favorable opinion of them.

It is almost like they think that the more people use them, the more valid the training method. I am sorry, but too many people use them in liu of training, and before they have tried positive methods. 

My dogs get trained no more than average, probably a lot less. They have prey drive and such as well. There is no way to say for sure if I would have gotten the same responses from my dogs using correction collars, because each dog is an individual. Once you have tried a method, you cannot erase it and try another, you can change your method, but there is no way to tell if the dog's bond will be better or worse if you use positive techniques up to 10 months or if you switch from one method to another, or if you started out at six months using a shock or prong. 

Just because people feel defensive, does not mean their methods are right or wrong. We write about our own dogs, dogs we have trained, because otherwise, we are writing about what we do not know. Prongs and e-collars work for people, but I have no trouble dismissing them as cruel and unnecessary for me, as I have not needed them.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I think these few sentences from Angel explain a lot: 

"He listens 98 per cent of the time without any reward (just praise)
If we are in a discracting situation, (a cat) I just grab his ball & he forgets what he was doing/was going to do.
I dont think there is anything wrong with redirecting attention."


That's great for a pet owner.... Not for a competition dog. If he's a pet running in your back yard and he listens 98%, OK. If you're out on the trial field you can't grab the ball. NO ball allowed... Redirection is great when the dog is learning something new. When the dog knows what he's supposed to do and decides not too, that's when the problem has shown itself. It's correction time, not redirection time. Be it pinch, prong or Electric. 

Unfortunately most here seem to only be able to judge the e-collar use by what they've seen at local clubs that don't have top trainers. Try and find someone a little more knowledgable that the guy who just bought this new toy at cabela's.

For those who "have never seen anyone have success with an E-Collar". If you've watched any youtube video of championship Schutzhund, Ringsport... YES YOU HAVE. Every big name sportmen I know has used them on one dog or another. They just know how to use it. Yes, even the ones known for positive training techniques. They'll all tell you that whatever form of physical correction you choose pinch, prong or electric you will have to something for correction.

Again the electric can be used as a great off lead proofing tool.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxI think these few sentences from Angel explain a lot:
> 
> "He listens 98 per cent of the time without any reward (just praise)
> If we are in a discracting situation, (a cat) I just grab his ball & he forgets what he was doing/was going to do.
> ...


AGAIN, THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARD YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE.

Im telling you I dont need to use a shock collar on MY PET.
Not my SchH dog, or my competition dog.
And so what? My dog likes to chase cats...?
Im not going to put a shock collar on him for the ONE bad thing he does.
Again, do what you want with your pets/competition dogs.
My dog is MY dog I will never use a shock collar.
So you can stop trying to explain why I should use one.
THANKS BYE.


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## DnP (Jul 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI get frustrated when people want to use them (shocks and prongs) on younger and younger puppies. They ask for advice and you give it and then a group of people who use the devices jump all over you for having a less than favorable opinion of them.
> 
> It is almost like they think that the more people use them, the more valid the training method. I am sorry, but too many people use them in liu of training, and before they have tried positive methods.
> 
> ...


My dog was not a puppy when I got him...he was a 16 month old dog. 

Most of us are not being defensive about using a prong collar or an e-collar, what people are saying is that what works for one dog, will not necessarily work for another. And I don't believe for one instance that these same people think that the more people use them the more valid the training method. These "people" are stating what has worked for them. I would have LOVED to have been able to stick solely w/ a reward/treat type of training, but I wasn't able b/c of my dog's drive. I also respectfully disagree with you that too many people use the other methods in lieu of training. In my classes, nearly all used a nylon training collar and by the time I was in level 3, many were able to use flat/buckle/no collars. 

You are allowed YOUR opinions, just like everyone else. What erks people are when blanket statements are made that all people who chose an alternative method/tool to training are abusive to their dogs. 

So you dogs have a prey drive, but how strong of a prey drive. That varies as well from dog to dog, as you know, having more than one dog in your household. That being said, there are dogs out there that make your dog's prey drive look like nothing and no amount of your sole training techniques will work to keep their focus. 

I'm not trying to "convert" you to the "other side". Obviously, you have a very strong opinon on this and I respect that. However, it annoys the bejeses out of me because you feel the need to condem those of us who chose a differrent way to train our dogs. I think the addage, walk a mile in my shoes fits.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Angel, you are, as usual, reading a lot into what others have said and taking it personally. R Mattox no where said you should put an ecollar on _your_ dog. 



> Quote:That's great for a pet owner.... Not for a competition dog. If he's a pet running in your back yard and he listens 98%, OK.


Mattox was explaining *why* they are used on competition level dogs. Not trying to get you to put one on your dog to make him stop chasing cats. 

I think in the case of some bullheaded working line GSDs, shocking them for chasing the cat would make the dog think the cat is mounting an attack and the dog would want to chase it more.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

True, I guess.
Its just when someone takes one of my posts & quotes it, it usually means thy are directing the statement toward me.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: R. MattoxI think these few sentences from Angel explain a lot:
> ...


Not to change the subject but your dog is getting bigger so if he is chasing cats you probably want to put a stop to it.The older he gets and the longer he is allowed to do this the more ingrained it will be that it is OK to do.It may some day get him run over or shot by a cat owner for chasing the wrong one..


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> *I think in the case of some bullheaded working line GSDs, shocking them for chasing the cat would make the dog think the cat is mounting an attack and the dog would want to chase it more. *


Actually Jenn it doesn't.If you have it at a high level,higher than it should be, it might, but used correctly it won't make the dog want to chase or fight with something.It will make the dog take a minute and look to you for guidance.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGNot to change the subject but your dog is getting bigger so if he is chasing cats you probably want to put a stop to it.The older he gets and the longer he is allowed to do this the more ingrained it will be that it is OK to do.It may some day get him run over or shot by a cat owner for chasing the wrong one..


Well I do try & stop him from doing it.
I dont just let him go off & run cats down.
We are working on it.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I know there are some folks getting worked up on here as is always the case when this subject comes up. The thread started with the OP stating she wanted to strap shock collars on all the users of the tool. For me, that was highly inflamatory and just plain wrong. Perhaps I should have walked away, I do get upset when such blanket statements that all users of these tools are cruel to their animals. I will not sit here and tell you that there arent misinformed people out there that will abuse this tool.....and honestly this tool is not for everybody. I for one went for almost a year and a half before going this route, that I waited so long was because of the stigma attached to this method and perhaps I could of saved both Ava and myself some heartache. When I help someone with a dog, I do not immediately say oooo oooo oooo you need an e-collar. For most pet situations positive reinforcement with praise and rewards will get you what you need. I cringe when I see how some people correct some behaviors.......especially in a puppy. I always advocate training, more so for the human at the other end of the leash usually. And truthfully, before Ava, I had not even touched a prong or an e-collar......never needed it, why would I try it if it wasnt needed? I have had dogs my entire 45 years and shepherds for over 25 years, worked with rescues and have dealt with some very difficult and sad cases. If you never need to use an e-collar, than you are truly blessed, but my heart goes out to anyone who, after trying everything in their arsenal of positive dog training, still has a dog with so much drive they cant bring them around.......when the drive hits nothing brings attention back to you, not a toy, not liver, not hotdogs, not the highest favored treat, talk about feeling like a failure to your dog! All you can do is remove them from the distraction........every time. How sad to not be able to let the dog run because they cant be trusted to recall in a high distraction situation? I really hate to see people get so worked up, on both sides of this issue... so peace, be good to yourselves and be good to your dogs and always do the best you can, no one can ask for more.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Dainerra wrote,


> Quote: I can easily see where a very reactive or shy dog would benefit from an e-collar. The correction isn't coming from the handler (in the dog's mind) so it's more likely that they will associate the correction with the behavior, not with the person.





> Originally Posted By: pupresq That's going to depend a lot on the skill and timing of the handler.


The skill and timing of the handler are important no matter what tool/method are used. Timing is actually more important with a clicker than with an Ecollar used conventionally. Punishment works if it's applied within three seconds of the undesired behavior. 

If you're three seconds behind your dog with a clicker you'll be marking the wrong behavior. He'll be on to some new behavior and THAT'S what you'll be marking. It's not *just *that it's ineffective, you'll be teaching the dog the *wrong thing. * The reason that a clicker is used, rather than just saying "good dog," is that it marks the *precise *moment in time that the dog is "right." If that moment is three seconds too late, not only will he not learn what is desired but he will learn the wrong thing. 



> Originally Posted By: pupresq I've seen quite a few dogs seriously mentally messed up by poor e-collar training.


_"I've seen quite a few dogs seriously mentally messed up by poor [+R] training." _ The ability to mess up a dog is not limited to one training tool/method. 



> Originally Posted By: pupresq They don't associate the shock with either the handler or the behavior. They don't know _where_ it's coming from or how to avoid it and become extremely skittish and reactive. It's very sad to watch.


_"They don't associate the [click] with either the handler or the behavior. They don't know where it's coming from or how to [get the treat] and become extremely [confused and depressed] It's very sad to watch."_ 

I saw this issue when I started using the Ecollar and so I devised protocols that make it impossible for the dog to NOT make the association between the behavior, the stim and the command. I've long argued against Ecollars used only a correction devices for just this reason. 

ANY tool can be misused. ANY tool can be abused. NO TOOL is idiot proof to the right idiot.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
> In the past 20 years, I've seen MANY people using shock collars and I can honestly say that *EVERY SINGLE DOG I've seen "trained" with a shock collar (other than my own) were basically abused * by overly-high and long-held shocking procedures. [Emphasis added]


There are several things at work here. First is this really doesn’t tell us much. Your experience in this could be limited to seeing only several dogs. Your experience with Ecollars is fairly limited. More than likely you've only trained your own dogs with them and so you really have little idea of what other dogs require. And finally we have the fact that you don't like Ecollars, even though you've used them, interesting double standard there BTW, and so you're influenced buy this dislike. I find it interesting that EVERYONE but you was abusing their dogs. ONLY YOU were capable of doing it right! I think that tells us quite a bit about your thought processes. 

I'd bet that I've seen MANY more dogs being trained with Ecollars than you have. I've not seen ANY dog _"abused by over high and long–held shocking procedures."_ * Abuse *is significantly different than *misuse. * Even if an owner is using too high levels of stim and holding the button down too long, merely doing that, by definition, is NOT abuse. Abuse has to have the intent of the person doing it to cause suffering for no other purpose. I'd bet that NOT ONE of the people you describe had that as their intent. More than likely they were hoping to end up with a trained dog, not an abused dog. 

People who don't like Ecollars will make these kinds of statement as emotional appeals. As evidence that you've NOT seen _"abuse"_ I'll bet that NOT ONCE did you call the authorities. You say that you've seen LOTS of people abusing dogs, and so it's reasonable to ask how many times you made that notification. 

I'd bet that if you saw someone in the park beating a dog with a stick while the dog cowered on the ground you'd be on the phone to the authorities. Please tell us how many times you made this notification when you saw someone using too high a level of stim or holding the button down too long? I'll bet the number is ZERO! 

Such emotional appeals work on many people and they may make you feel justified in your dislike of Ecollars. But they really have no place in a logical, reasonable, polite discussion on Ecollars. It's the last resort of people who have run out of sound arguments. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest On the other hand, I've seen even more dogs trained with prong collars, choke chains and buckle collars. None of these dogs were abused in the way that those on shock collars (described above) were.


I HAVE seen dogs abused with such tools. And when I did, I called the police, or when I was on duty, took action myself. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Shrugging off the concern about potential abusive use of shock collars by saying "other collars can be used just as abusively" is just a way of making an excuse for those who fear ANY criticism of shock collar training.


Hardly. It puts the lie to those who have run out of logic and are now relying on emotion in this discussion. And your last statement is quite wrong. I welcome, in fact I invite, logical and reasonable criticism of Ecollar training. It gives me the opportunity to set the record straight when people cite myths and misconceptions about the tool. It's a welcome relief from these emotional attacks. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestIt's much easier, physically, to crank up the dial and hit the button than it is to yank on a regular collar (of any type).


Nonsense! Turning the dial takes a conscious act. Jerking on the leash can easily happen without thought, just because the handler is angry. And it's much more satisfying to an angry person to take physical action than it is to merely press a button. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest And I've found that overall, people who are new to dog training have a tendency to over-correct and under-reward anyhow.


It's exactly the opposite with Ecollars. Few people have had the experience of putting a correction collar on themselves and having someone give a hard jerk on it, so they have no idea of what they're inflicting on their dog. But most of them HAVE HAD THE EXPERIENCE of being shocked in one form or another. And so, in my experience, which probably is much larger than yours on this, they tend to use too low a level of stim. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestHand these people a shock collar without giving them the proper training,


That's why my articles exist! They're available 24/7 and they're free! 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest and I have zero doubt that you're going to see dogs being shocked for the wrong reasons, shocked when they don't understand, shocked at higher levels than needed, etc.


Quite possible. A reasonable person would realize that Ecollars are NOT going to go away. And so, instead of trying to scare people, which just drives them underground where they don't look for information or ask questions because they're afraid of one of your attacks, they try to use the tool without looking for help. It's from people who point out the logical fallacies in your messages, that they learn how to use the tool properly. As I've written MANY TIMES, the key is education. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestI would prefer that people not use a prong collar or other corrective devices without proper training, either.


I prefer that people use the appropriate tool for what they're training and the dog that is being trained. Putting a blanket bad–mouth on certain tools just means that people don't get educated on proper use of them. It doesn’t stop anyone from using them when they don't get good results with other tools. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestIf more people understood how to train within a dog's understanding, and using properly timed rewards, there would be a lot more happy dogs and happy people. But unfortunately many people seem to be punishment-happy.


I don't think so. I think, as I've said repeatedly that education is the key. I've done something to educate people about a little understood, much aligned tool. I write on many forums and lists to inform people, especially those who are misinformed and have learned from scare tactics like yours. I've set up both an email list AND a forum where people can get their questions answered about Ecollars. 

Wondering … what have you done to educate people so that they _"train within a dog's understanding?"_ 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest Personally I don't believe for a minute that a dog trained primarily with corrections is going to be as bonded to its owner as a dog that is trained primarily with rewards.


I have no idea what it means for a dog to be _"trained primarily with corrections."_ for every press of the button on an Ecollar there's a reinforcement. That's a one to one relationship. Most owners are going to throw in some praise and so the balance tilts in favor of rewards. 

Of course, you are free to believe whatever you like. But I've shown repeatedly in front of crowds that the Ecollar gives a good bond in the first session, sometimes with dogs that a few minutes ago, wanted to bite me. 

Just about every police dog on the face of the planet is trained with corrections. They regularly lay down their lives for their handlers. They regularly go into situations for their handlers that from experience, they know, can cause them pain. My own PSD once waded into the middle of four people who were attacking me, one with a bottle for a weapon, without the slightest hesitation. In fact he stopped the guy with the bottle mid–swing, before the blow landed. This was without a command as I didn't even see it coming! 

This is just ANOTHER in a long line of your emotional attacks on methods that you don't care for. And like the other ones, while it may make you feel good, most of the comments are just not true. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest I've seen (and experienced) the difference first-hand.


I don't doubt that, but I know that this is a general statement as it applies to how YOU use these methods. It has no bearing on how I use the Ecollar or how I train others to do so. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest But those who train with corrections will never believe me, of course.


Of course. We know what OUR results have been. This isn't a matter of belief. It's a matter of you now knowing what our results have been but we do. As you so often do, you're making assumptions about the training of others without having ever seen it! 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest To admit a difference in bonding would admit a failing in the tool/technique, and heaven forbid that happen.


I've NEVER seen anyone establish a bond by being a treat dispenser. As soon as something better comes along, the dog is off. I have seen first hand a dog that wanted to kill me, within about 30 minutes, climb into my lap and start licking my face. HERE'S the link again. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest BTW, Lou, I've chosen not to read your drawn-out quote/response posts. That constant quoting is just irritating to me and breaks up the continuity of any response you give.


That's fine with me Melanie. I know that many people ARE reading it. I'm writing for them, not you. Your mind is made up and I have no hope of changing it. You're quite closed minded on this. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest It's like you can't really respond without quoting every little line so you can decide what to say


I CAN. I choose not to. People take the time to write down their thoughts. The least I can do is respond to each one of them. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest I'm fully aware of your strong ties to shock collar training and *I doubt you have anything new to add from the last time. * [Emphasis added]


If my responses are the same it's ONLY because your statements are the same. That's how the truth and reality work. Flip the switch and the light comes on. Ask the same question over and over and you get the same answer over and over. If you ever have anything new to say, you'll get new responses. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest If you do, feel free to post in a more normal manner


LOL. Love that you think you have the market cornered on what is a _"more normal manner."_ I've been doing this for decades. 



> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest and I'm sure many of us will read it (I'm not the only one who skips the other posts .. *L*).


I know by the responses of many that they're reading. Why you takes these descents into personal attacks, is a continuing mystery. They have nothing to do with the topic.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> I want my dog to listen for a ball/treat etc
> not because of a collar.


Why do you think that one is better than the other? Why do you think that those of us who use Ecollars don't also use _"ball/treat, etc.?"_ 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R My dog does usually everything without a leash/ collar.
> I didnt really bring him up on one.


Yes, and? 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R I guess if your dog totally disreguards what you say, then some kind of training must be done. (duh)


As you say, _"duh."_ 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R But Ecollars/ electric fences/ pinch collars are my last options.


I've been training dogs long enough to know what tool is appropriate for a given dog for a given behavior. I don't waste time fooling around with things that I know will give inferior results. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R I understand alot of people use them, and thats what fine with me, because its not my life or dog.
> Its just my opinion that I wouldnt use them.


You are free to use whatever tools you like. I do have an issue when you insinuate that your tools are better than others. They may be for your dogs for what you want them to do and for your idea of how they should do it. To assume that is appropriate for everyone is well … to make an assumption. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R I would just reccomend that owners try positive renforcement training first.
> ? But thats just IMHO


And you're welcome to it. I don't see the need unless it's appropriate for what I'm training.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGI believe he quotes to address every concern or question.It isn't to annoy anyone.I like it because I don't question what he is responding to.


I bet that this is addressing Melanie's dislike for my multiquoting style of writing. What you've stated is correct. Try reading my posts WITHOUT the quotations and they wouldn't make much sense. It needs the part of the post that I'm referring to, to be understood. 

It seems that for every person who does not like my style of multiquoting there's one (usually more) who prefer it. Add that to MY PREFERENCE for it and I'll stick with it. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieG I have done nothing but positive reinforcement with my dog from day one and didn't get anywhere till I seeked a trainer who was willing to work with me and show me the correct way to use the prong.I was already using the E collar correctly for what I was using it for.When I wanted to add it to our fear aggression that I had worked on all summer I seeked his advice.
> FYI *the totally positive training I tried all summer did not get through to my dog. * [Emphasis added]


If I was your trainer we would have started out with the Ecollar and you would not have spent the dog's life to that point in frustration and despair. You'd have had visible results right from the very first session. By the end of a few weeks you'd have a dog that would perform reliably at a distance from you, in the face of most distractions. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieG She stayed in fear and we never advanced till I went with a trainer who "used" the prong and or e collar.When my dog is in the fear zone or prey zone,no treat in the world is going to get her attention.The prong or e collar does.I feel I hurt and do more harm using the prong on her than I do the e collar.When I need to correct I tend to make her yelp with the prong but with the e collar she just comes to me or looks up to me for the next direction.


As I've said, the Ecollar used properly is a very gentle tool. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieG Some day you certain people will end up with a dog that needs more than total positive training and I hope you are open enough to try this method.


I hope so too. But I've often found that people in these discussions are so entrenched in the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) that's it's almost a religion to them. They can't give up their faith and so they keep trying and trying and trying and … They've come to believe that the harder they try and the longer they keep at it, the _holier _they become, further making them believe. I've argued with one of those people who PROUDLY says that it took her FOUR YEARS to teach her dog to recall. I find it unconscionable to own a dog for that period of time and never to let the dog run free because you're afraid it might not recall.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier AllieG wrote,


> Quote:Some day you certain people will end up with a dog that needs more than total positive training and I hope you are open enough to try this method.





> Originally Posted By: Virginia I think this is a big issue. Not every dog in the world is like your dog that only needs praise and treats.


I think that Virginia is aiming this particular comment at Angel R who has written that _"All I give him is praise & his tennis ball."_ 

I agree Virginia. It's interesting when pet owners make statements like this. 



> Originally Posted By: Virginia For anyone who thinks that e-collars are unnecessary and ineffective because THEIR dog has not needed one yet to obey, I challenge you to take a high prey drive, working line dog, set it loose off-leash in an area with squirrels and rabbits scampering around, and recall him as he is in mid-chase. And please don't say, I know my dog can do that, unless you have actually done it.


Often in these discussion I've had people who make just that statement. Sometimes they live nearby and so I go pay them a visit. Never has one of them been able to live up to their claim. Perhaps it's my presence that influences their dogs? lol. 

Sometimes people have made such statements but they don't live within reasonable driving distance. Often I've had people who know them put the lie to their claims. Sometimes it's people on their own SAR teams who have tired of the preaching that these discussion often turn into. 

One thing that greatly influences this is their definition of "high prey drive" dogs. I have RARELY had people tell me that their dog was "low drive." I've had MANY people tell me that their dog was "high drive." Yet when I've gone to see them, it turns out that their dog has only a moderate level of prey drive. Many people have never seen a really high prey drive dog but since their methods haven't worked on their dog, that's been their excuse. Often trainers who favor the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) use that as an excuse for their lack of results. 

I don't give a two hoots for a dog's drive level. Command are to be obeyed no matter how high the dog's level of drive is, no matter what he's doing and no matter how far away he is. But many people use these as excuses for failures of their dogs to perform. I've even see one so–called EXPERT use such an excuse. On a video tape he made to display his expertise, he gives one of his own dogs a command to "sit." Within seconds the dog slides his front legs out to a down. The _"expert"_ says, "That's OK, you're not my competition dog." As if that makes the lack of response to a command alright. 



> Originally Posted By: Virginia Very few trainers have the experience or skill to recall a dog in this situation with purely positive reinforcement.


And if they do it's because they've spent a loooong time in getting it and/or they've pre–selected the dog so that they know he'll be compatible with their methods. Few pet owners have the time to spend and even fewer select a dog with such intent. Many of them get a puppy and they have no idea what method of training he'll respond to. 



> Originally Posted By: Virginia Especially if the dog thinks that chasing and catching prey is way more interesting than bacon and praise. Even more so if the dog is not particularly food or toy motivated.
> 
> When you train a dog with purely positive methods and absolutely no negative methods, you are giving that dog a choice on whether or not he needs to obey. And when I call my dog off of a squirrel as he's running towards a busy road, there is NO choice for him except to obey.


Too true.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> I think that a lot of training tools are over-used when and where they are not needed because they produce "faster" or "easier" results for a lot of trainers.


Why use a tool that is "slower" or "harder?" Results being the same, of course. 



> Originally Posted By: Historian It does go both ways. I would never rule any tool out because my dog has not needed it before - there may come a time where I will need it.


I like this kind of thinking. 



> Originally Posted By: Historian But at the same time, I don't go straight to a tool if I can work with something else, first.


Isn't that just a different version of _"go[ing] straight to a tool?"_ Aren't you just going to a different tool/method? Or am I not understanding?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> I agree. There are training tools I don't use now, but that doesn't mean I'll NEVER use them, I just haven't needed them yet. *Why use something I don't need? * [Emphasis added]


So that when the time comes you just pick up that tool and go to work. Otherwise there's going to be a learning curve and you'll spend valuable time learning to use the tool when you could be training with it. The longer a problem persists, the worse it gets. The faster it's eliminated the easier it is to eliminate it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> Or to nitpick. Often, individual sentences are pulled out and responded to, one at a time, removing them from the context of the paragraphs they were in.


After I respond to a thought that's contained in the sentence, I quote the next one. all of the post is there, I just respond to each thought at it comes along. No context is removed. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomTaking a sentence out of context can completely change its meaning, so what's being responded to isn't actually what the person even meant.


Anytime anyone thinks that I've removed the context of what they wrote, they are free to let me know. They are also free to point out the original context. So far NOT ONE PERSON HAS DONE SO. I'm left to reasonably believe that it's NOT happening, as hard as you try to insinuate that it is. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomNot only is that irritating, it's misleading and disingenuous.


If I was doing those things, you might be right. But since I'm not … 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomFor that reason, I don't read those posts either.


It's always entertaining when people oppose my viewpoint but then tell me that the don't read my posts. How do they know what they're opposing? Answer, THEY HAVE NO IDEA! ROFL MAO.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DnP
> Melanie, I respectfully disagree w/ you regarding a dog being less bonded w/ it's owner than a dog primarily trained w/ rewards. Over 16 years ago, the training Dakota and I went through was correction based. You cannot tell me for one moment that he was less bonded with me than your dogs to you. I had him for nearly 14 years. This was a dog that put himself in harms way to protect me. This was a dog that followed me around everywhere and snuggled with me at night. This was not a dog that cowered when I spoke w/ a raised voice either. He was my partner in every sense of the word.


Thanks for jumping into the thread Diana. Melanie takes this tack just about every time this discussion comes up. Sometimes people actually believe what she writes. It's posts like yours, showing your own experience, that shows that she's not right about these things. 



> Originally Posted By: DnP I was not a fan of prong collars. I knew nothing about them until Phoenix.


Often this is how it works. You use whatever methods you learned when you started out. Then you come across a dog that they don't work on. Some people NEVER get this far. They keep getting the same dog over and over again. Nothing wrong with that but it leads them to believe that their method (no matter what it is) will work on all dogs. Those of us with more and varied experience know better. 

The principles of training have been the same since animals were created. Reward what you want repeated. Punish what you don't want repeated. Nothing's changed and I doubt that it ever will. What has changed is the method of getting the dog's attention so that you can apply these principles. Some methods only allow this when the dog is not highly distracted. 



> Originally Posted By: DnP No amount of treats/rewards would pull him out of his fight drive and back to pack and focus on me in a situation w/ distractions. My trainer, who wholely believes in reward training, recognized that not EVERY dog can be trained that way and provided me w/ a TOOL to work with Phoenix. The prong collar was used STRICTLY for training. The collar allowed me to redirect Phoenix's attention.


So glad that you had a trainer that looked elsewhere when the regular methods would not work. Some stay stuck for years. Some people NEVER get unstuck. Instead they just drop Fido off at the pound and start over. 



> Originally Posted By: DnP I think was is at that core to the discussion of this topic is that not every dog is the same and that techniques/tools that work for one dog may not work for another.


Very much so. But still we have people who think that their methods will work on every dog. It's interesting that most of them realize that not every human is alike and so what will motivate one will not motivate another. But they don't make this allowance for the dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: DnP At the same time, those different tools can be abused. I think we can all agree on that. BUT, you cannot condem someone for using a tool that, you (collective you that fall in this category) profess to never need or want to use. Hey, I think it's great if you have a dog that you can train solely on reward w/o collar or leash. You have to understand that while your dog will work that way, not every dog will. Not everyone gets their dog as a puppy/blank slate. Not all dogs have the same drives.


Yep.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI get frustrated when people want to use them (shocks and prongs) on younger and younger puppies. They ask for advice and you give it and then a group of people who use the devices jump all over you for having a less than favorable opinion of them.


Sticking to the topic of this thread Ecollars … every manufacturer say that Ecollars should not be used on dogs younger than six months. I agree. I've gone younger once when a client said she was going to use the Ecollar whether or not I helped. And so I went along to make sure that everything was OK. It was. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer It is almost like they think that the more people use them, the more valid the training method.


The Ecollar has never been in *in*valid tool for training. The more something is accepted … the more it's accepted. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer I am sorry, but too many people use them in liu of training, and before they have tried positive methods.


They're not using the Ecollar _"in liu [sic] of training."_ they're using as PART of the training. Just as a clicker or a choke chain might be used. Putting a tool on a dog does not make him "trained." 



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Once you have tried a method, you cannot erase it and try another, you can change your method, but there is no way to tell if the dog's bond will be better or worse if you use positive techniques up to 10 months or if you switch from one method to another, or if you started out at six months using a shock or prong.


You can't erase what's come before but you can certainly improve on it. Many of my clients come to me only after they've tried just about every other method out there and had it fail. Somehow using the Ecollar I've never failed to fix the problem that they brought to me. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Prongs and e-collars work for people, but I have no trouble dismissing them as cruel and unnecessary for me, as I have not needed them.


I bet there are quite a few things in the world that you _"have not needed …"_ but I bet that you label few of them as _"cruel and abusive."_ I'll have to say that since you have no experience with them, this opinion is worthless as far as influencing others.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxI think these few sentences from Angel explain a lot:


Me too. 

Angel wrote


> Quote: He listens 98 per cent of the time without any reward (just praise)
> If we are in a discracting situation, (a cat) I just grab his ball & he forgets what he was doing/was going to do.
> I dont think there is anything wrong with redirecting attention.





> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox That's great for a pet owner....


I don]t think so. If he's chasing a cat and running towards a busy street, I don't think that a 2% rate of failure is acceptable. The ball is not going to get the dog's attention in this circumstance.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> AGAIN, THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARD YOU, OR ANYONE ELSE.


Why are you assuming that our comments are directed toward you? 



> Originally Posted By: Angel RIm telling you I dont need to use a shock collar on MY PET.
> Not my SchH dog, or my competition dog.
> And so what? My dog likes to chase cats...?
> * Im not going to put a shock collar on him for the ONE bad thing he does. * [Emphasis added]


No one has suggest that you do so. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel RAgain, do what you want with your pets/competition dogs.
> My dog is MY dog I will never use a shock collar.
> So you can stop trying to explain why I should use one.
> THANKS BYE.


We're just using your comments to show why others with results similar to yours might want to use Ecollars. It's not all about you.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> Not to change the subject but your dog is getting bigger so if he is chasing cats you probably want to put a stop to it.The older he gets and the longer he is allowed to do this the more ingrained it will be that it is OK to do.It may some day get him run over or shot by a cat owner for chasing the wrong one..


I would never wish such consequences on anyone. But sometimes that's what it takes to get someone to use an Ecollar. Then it's too late for "that dog" but their next dog will wear one.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Well I do try & stop him from doing it.
> I dont just let him go off & run cats down.
> We are working on it.


Angel how long ya been working on it?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyI know there are some folks getting worked up on here as is always the case when this subject comes up. The thread started with the OP stating she wanted to strap shock collars on all the users of the tool. For me, that was highly inflamatory and just plain wrong. Perhaps I should have walked away, I do get upset when such blanket statements that all users of these tools are cruel to their animals.


And you should not walk away when someone makes such a statement. This statement is on it's face a flame. I think that calling a pet owner or a trainer "cruel or abusive" is one of the most provocative things that can be said about them. 



> Originally Posted By: Betsy I for one went for almost a year and a half before going this route, that I waited so long was because of the stigma attached to this method and perhaps I could of saved both Ava and myself some heartache.


This is the goal of the antis. Many of them, as you've seen will not allow for ANY use of it, no matter what the issue and no matter how long someone has worked on it. I've spoken to some who would prefer that a dog be killed rather than use an Ecollar on him. I'd bet that some posters here are that extreme. 



> Originally Posted By: Betsy When I help someone with a dog, I do not immediately say oooo oooo oooo you need an e-collar.


Me either. It's not the answer for every issue. 



> Originally Posted By: Betsy And truthfully, before Ava, I had not even touched a prong or an e-collar......never needed it


For many people getting to the Ecollar is just a matter of them getting a dog that does not respond to the methds that the habitually use.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AllieGI believe he quotes to address every concern or question.It isn't to annoy anyone.I like it because I don't question what he is responding to.
> ...


Since you bring this up I'll explain my trials and tribulations with Athena.
I first did OB and realized I had a problem.I then consulted a well known trainer in NH who wanted to do board and train.I wasn't comfortable with that.He really didn't give me a clue of how he would do it.
I then went with a positive trainer and worked all summer to get her over her dog fear aggression.We got no where or should I say I got no where.

I then consulted Ken Murphy,may now of him may not.He automatically wanted to do the e collar.I was familiar with it due to using it for other things but didn't want to go full force on the first real training.I wanted something to fall back on if it failed.

Then I found another trainer who I decided to go with because he was half way between the others I consulted.We made excellent progress.The last 2 weeks he showed me how to use the e collar for her problem.We had come along so far that it isn't really necessary for it..I do know now that should I need to freshen up on her dog fear aggression I can use it properly.

So to answer your original question/advice,it was my fault for not doing in the end of summer when I found Ken.I just wasn't ready to put all my eggs in a basket at that point.Should I have another dog like Athena I will know to just do it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> Since you bring this up I'll explain my trials and tribulations with Athena.
> 
> ... Should I have another dog like Athena I will know to just do it.


Thanks for filling in the details Allie


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


4 days


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> You are free to use whatever tools you like. I do have an issue when you insinuate that your tools are better than others. They may be for your dogs for what you want them to do and for your idea of how they should do it. To assume that is appropriate for everyone is well … to make an assumption.


When do I say MY training is better than yours? LOL
My "tools" are a ball. 
I never said THAT IS THE ONLY way of teaching a dog.
Did I?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks Lou... I have learned a lot from your post on here. Some of us are thankful to have some one as educated with the e-collar as you are to learn from.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Thank you Lou.It is nice to have some one to ask questions to on this topic.
I like to let people know that I have tried many different thing with Athena.Yes she is only 19 months old, but I feel if I let her grow out of it she may never do that.It just might grow on her then I will have a bigger problem on my hands than people disliking my training techniques.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:It sounds like chasing cars, and game, and livestock could be managed by not allowing the dog to run. It is a containment issue.


Not always.

I have what I consider to be two legitimate situations for using an electric collar.

First is Sasha. We have 2 acres fenced for the dogs. On the east side of that area is the service road for the commercial nursery next to us. It is also their druveway.

Sasha likes to chase the cars that go up and down the driveway. If I am out there with the dogs and I see the vehicles (or people) before she does I can redirect. If I don't see it first I can sometimes (50/50) call her off. But when we are NOT out there there's nothing that stops her.

I've tried redirecting, clicker, long line - even tried driving up the road myself and jumping out of the car to correct her (DH was driving).

The act of chasing and barking at the car is self-rewarding.

So - since I cannot be outside with the dogs 100% of the time I have 3 choices:

A. Don't ever leave her out there - just take her out to potty and bring her right back in. Not much fun for her - she can't play with the other dogs, explore, run around, hunt mice and worms - in other words BE a dog.

B. Put her on a tie out OUTSIDE the fenced area. I will NOT put her on a tie out inside the fencing - she and Mauser would be wrapped up and possibly injured within minutes. Being outside the fencing, tied up while the other dogs get to run and play? Mean, IMHO.

C. Get an electric collar and shock her when she initiates the chase. Used correctly I would hope that just a few corrections and she understands that cars are NOT to be chased.

There is choice D - put up a 6' solid fence. We do plan to do this as soon as we have the money but until then ???


Situation #2 - Winnie, our Corgi mix. She has a barking problem.

When she is in the field and wants to come back in the house, she starts barking. If I open the door and verbally correct her, she stops ... for a minute or so and then starts up again.

It's about 75 feet from our back door to the gate to the dogs fenced area. Even if I run (which I can't), I couldn't get to her in time to physically correct her for barking - because she stops as soon as I get about halfway there. Bringing her in doesn't work - that's what she WANTS.

So, here's my choices:

A. Debark her. Not an option *I* would ever consider.

B. Never leave her outside in the field - just take her out to potty and then right back in the house. Not much fun for her.

C. Use an electric collar to teach her that barking doesn't get her what she wants.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Many of my clients come to me only after they've tried just about every other method out there and had it fail. Somehow using the Ecollar I've never failed to fix the problem that they brought to me.


I suspect at least some of that is due to proficiency in training and good understanding of operant conditioning and timing, irrespective of the tools used. 

My experience is that many different training tools work and work well but only when used correctly, something that sadly seems to be more the exception than the rule.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is specifically for Lou Castle.

I have used a visible electric fence, safe for cattle, sheep, and dogs, about eighteen inches off the ground running along the inside of my fence. 

This was to prohibit digging and climbing of the fence. 

The dogs do not like getting zapped, so they run up near the fence, look down to see where the wire is, and then bark at whatever is out there, never touching the wire. 

I like the fact that the correction is not coming from me, it is just somewhere the dogs are not allowed to go and if they do go there, there is a consequence. They leave the fence alone and never go near it. 

A collar though is worn on the dog and it can zap them by getting too close to something they cannot see, or through a remote that the owner handles. It is almost like it comes out of no where. 

I train my dogs to work on lead or off lead, inside and outside. I have had them on sheep, I have had them at busy shows, I have had them walk all over town with me off lead. But when I let my dogs run, they are in a safe place, in a field that is fenced. If my recall does not work, then I can go up to the dog and lead the dog where I want him. He will not get run over. The dogs that I feel comfortable working off lead in public, where there is traffic etc, are dogs that I can and have called off of a rabbit in full flight. 

I think there is a difference between letting the dogs run in the field and having them walk with you here or there. I do not know what your definition of running free is, but though I live in the country, my dogs are never given hundred of acres to run on. I do not believe that dogs should "run free." That it is dangerous for our dogs to do so. I am hoping that this is not what you are advocating. 

My dogs are pretty smart. They know whether they are on lead or not on lead. They would know whether the correction collar is on them or not. So how does using an e-collar proof your dog off lead? The dog is essentially not off lead. 

My dogs are German and American showline dogs, and possibly do not have the high drives that are being described here. 

Oh, and I am not a deciple of clickers either. I have tried them, but I do not want to walk around with a bunch of snacks in my pockets, or a clicker connected to my hand, or a remote for a dog's collar. 

Did I ever mention the PetsMart trainer who was completely screwing up a dog and her owners. She had a clicker in one hand and treats, and a jar of pennies in the other and she was clicking and shaking and one on top of the other and I found it quite disturbing. 

What I do have with me all the time is my voice. I can use my voice to praise and correct, to command and train. It is my training tool of choice.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Angel how long ya been working on it?





> Originally Posted By: Angel R4 days


Thanks for the info.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> When do I say MY training is better than yours? LOL
> My "tools" are a ball.


You've also told us that you use _"praise."_ You said that you didn't regard that as reinforcing, but it is. 

While you've never made that specific statement you've said many things that would lead a reasonable person to draw that assumption because, based ONLY on my choice of tools you've said many judgmental things about me and my training. Here are some of them. 

<ul>[*]You sound like you dont bond or connect with your dogs/dogs you train. [*]But ecollars? For SAR dogs? [*]I want my dog to listen for a ball/treat etc not because of a collar. [*]But Ecollars/ electric fences/ pinch collars are my last options.[*]I would just reccomend that owners try positive renforcement training first. … [/list]

And so logically I came to the conclusion that you consider that your tools/methods are better than mine. 

If you had ever seen my training then you might be qualified to decide whether I was competent or not. You might be able to make an intelligent statement about the quality of my training. But the ONLY thing you've based these statements on is that I sometimes use an Ecollar. 

BTW quite a few posts back you asked for my qualifications. Back then I directed you to my website which has the info you requested and then I asked,


> Quote: Now may I have the same information about you please?


I haven't seen a response. Could you supply the requested information please?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74Thanks Lou... I have learned a lot from your post on here. Some of us are thankful to have some one as educated with the e-collar as you are to learn from.


WOW indeed! Lol. 

Thanks very much for the kind words rapnek. It makes all the nonsense that the antis put up worth it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGThank you Lou.It is nice to have some one to ask questions to on this topic.


Thanks Allie. Please be sure to never hesitate to ask. Don't let the antis get you down. I'm not always here so if you don't get a response, feel free to email me privately. I answer all emails. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieGI like to let people know that I have tried many different thing with Athena.Yes she is only 19 months old, but I feel if I let her grow out of it she may never do that.It just might grow on her then I will have a bigger problem on my hands than people disliking my training techniques.


I think it's great that you share your training experiences with everyone. Many people will only talk about their successes and that leads people whose training isn't going well to think that they are failures. I learn far more from my mistakes than I do from my successes. 

As to people _"disliking your training techniques"_ let'em eat cake! Lol


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Many of my clients come to me only after they've tried just about every other method out there and had it fail. Somehow using the Ecollar I've never failed to fix the problem that they brought to me.





> Originally Posted By: pupresqI suspect at least some of that is due to proficiency in training and good understanding of operant conditioning and timing, irrespective of the tools used.


I'd bet that you're right. But most of them have been to many trainers who favor various other methods. Surely there must be some of them who are competent. I think what's happening is that they're bumping into the limit of those methods, a glass ceiling if you will.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerThis is specifically for Lou Castle.
> 
> I have used a visible electric fence, safe for cattle, sheep, and dogs, about eighteen inches off the ground running along the inside of my fence.
> 
> ...


My protocols were developed specifically so that the dogs could figure out, in a few repetitions, how to shut off the stim. Even then the stim level is set to the level where the dogs first perceive it. to give you some idea of how little aversion there is to this, take a look at this video.  



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> I think there is a difference between letting the dogs run in the field and having them walk with you here or there. I do not know what your definition of running free is, but though I live in the country, my dogs are never given hundred of acres to run on. I do not believe that dogs should "run free." That it is dangerous for our dogs to do so. I am hoping that this is not what you are advocating.


Nope. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer My dogs are pretty smart. They know whether they are on lead or not on lead.


Even the dumbest dogs know this. lol. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer They would know whether the correction collar is on them or not. So how does using an e-collar proof your dog off lead? The dog is essentially not off lead.


In the same way that doing any training "proofs a dog." There's quite a bit on my site about getting the dog to perform whether the collar is on or not. Some of it is proofing and some is desensitization. 

As to being "essentially not off lead," people will differ as to this definition. There is no physical equipment connecting the dog to the handler so many will say that he IS off lead. I don't bother to get into these semantic discussions. They can get pretty silly sometimes. My dogs perform whether the Ecollar is on or off. I usually have them on for insurance as described previously. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Oh, and I am not a deciple of clickers either. I have tried them, but I do not want to walk around with a bunch of snacks in my pockets, or a clicker connected to my hand, or a remote for a dog's collar.


I don't use the tool either. I do use the method when appropriate, but I don't use the clicker. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Did I ever mention the PetsMart trainer who was completely screwing up a dog and her owners. She had a clicker in one hand and treats, and a jar of pennies in the other and she was clicking and shaking and one on top of the other and I found it quite disturbing.


I don't recall reading about it. If you did mention it, I missed it. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer What I do have with me all the time is my voice. I can use my voice to praise and correct, to command and train. It is my training tool of choice.


If it gives you good results, that's great.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


What do you want to me write sir?
Im not a cop obviously....?
Im a cashier & house cleaner.

Is that good enough for you?
I do not claim to be "professional."


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

It's not a matter of _"what  want [you] to write" but you asked about my background and I answered you. Then I asked about yours and you did not respond. 

It's also not a matter of something being "good enough for [me.]" I just wanted to know your background in dog training. 

Thanks for the response._


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## TX Shepherd (Feb 3, 2009)

I have lurked around here for quite a while and have always been annoyed at the discussions about ecollars. I have never posted in one of these heated discussions before, but for some reason this particular thread has really rubbed me the wrong way.

I have used the ecollar from day one in training my dog. He wa 1-1/2 years old when I started.
I went to a trainer and learned how to use the collar so I didn't "mess the dog up" (thank goodness I started when I did since the trainer merged with SitMeansSit recently....ugh). 

Here is the way I was taught to use the collar:
First, I teach Jake the command using praise as a reward.
Once Jake has learned the command, use the collar to make him "sharper". The collar should be on the lowest setting that gets a reaction out of your dog. I have a Dogtra and I have it set on 9 (out of a possible 127) almost all of the time.
I push the "nick" button as soon as I start to say the command and if he does the command, I praise the heck out of him. If he doesn't, I "nick" as I am repeating the command until he does it.

If I correcting him, I will push the "nick" button as I say the word, same as any other command, except he doesn't get any praise. i do not turn up the level on the reomote, either. It is almost always at the same setting for everything.

I spend at least 2 hours a day with my dog training and playing. I don't think that anyone has a dog that is more bonded to them than mine is to me (though I am sure everyone says the same thing). My dog gets very excited when I pick up his collar to put it on, which I don't think he would do if he didn't like it.


Oh, and Jake is just as reliable without the collar on. He never has to wear a leash unless we are going into a place that requires it.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Glad to have you join us.

My dogs go ballistic when I get the collars out.Today we did our first off leash walk/run on the snowmobile trails in the field up the road.I posted pictures if anyone cares to see a regular dog having fun with an e collar.The whole walk I never had to use it till we got to the end by the road and the brat decided to jump the snowbank to get in the road then wouldn't come for the first time on the walk when I called her.
I can't chance her getting on the scent of a deer,coyote,moose or bear and running off.I'm almost certain she won't get out of my sight but I just can't chance a smell being more important then me.
I love my dog too much to lose her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry, but dogs go balistic when you get a prong out too. 

Mine go balistic when I get the martingale and leash out. It means I am taking them somewhere. They love to go. They do not care where. They know the leash means go. They get excited. It does not mean they like a pinch or a zap, a pop with a choker, or being restrained with a flat collar. It means they love to go. 

If a prong means training class, a flat collar means dog show, and an e collar always means a romp in the woods, it is possible that the dog would be more excited when the e-collar comes out -- because it means a romp in the woods.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

If dogs thought that Ecollars were, as you've said, _"torture devices"_ *no matter what they meant *they'd not get excited when they came out. Instead they'd run to the furthest part of the house and not allow them to be put on. 

Instead, since they're even more gentle than your martingale, they run to have them put on.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I was taught the goal was to have the dog not realize the stim was coming from the collar to avoid having them be collar wise. So if the dog doesn't know the stim comes from the collar then their reaction to having it put on would be, as Selzer says, an association with going to do certain activities that they enjoy not a commentary on how they feel about the level of stim.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I want to know how you think they are more gentle then a martingale???

The martingale does not administer ANY corrections. Not ANY. 

Sorry, it is the best collar out there in my opinion and very gentle. 

I saw a dog with a raw section on her neck from a shock collar. She did not like the shock collar and did hide when the person tried to put it back on her. 

I have never seen a raw section from a martingale. 

Now everything you may have said in this thread for me has been brought into question because of that statement.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI was taught the goal was to have the dog not realize the stim was coming from the collar to avoid having them be collar wise.


A dog is said to be "collarwise" when he will only obey when the collar is on. The goal of most tools is to be able to have the dog perform whether it's on or not. Dogs are not stupid and they know that the stim comes from the collar just as they know the they can be corrected when a pinch collar is on and the owner is holding the leash. Dogs know when the pinch collar is taken off but if the conditioning has been done correctly, they still obey. 

Dogs also know that if they're wearing a pinch collar and they ARE NOT on leash they can't be corrected with it. Dogs still associate whatever tool is being used with a training session. 

But if, as selzer has said, Ecollars were _"torture devices"_ the dogs would perceive them as such, and they would not be happy to have them put on, training session or not. Dogs subjected to high levels of shock in labs are afraid to come out of their cages because to the anticipation of high levels of pain. That's NOT the case with a dog properly trained with an Ecollar as a few have described.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI want to know how you think they are more gentle then a martingale???
> 
> The martingale does not administer ANY corrections. Not ANY.


The human on the other end of the leash from the martingale applies the correction, the same as with any other collar of this nature. Since a correction can be given with a buckle collar, one certainly can be given with a martingale. 



> Originally Posted By: selzer Sorry, it is the best collar out there in my opinion and very gentle.


If a dog runs full tilt into the end of the leash, particular if it's a long line, he'll get a pretty good correction. That's nowhere near as gentle as an Ecollar can be adjusted to. 



> Originally Posted By: pupresq I saw a dog with a raw section on her neck from a shock collar.


This is from either having the Ecollar on for too long a period or from having it on too tightly. Sores can develop from the contact points. This has nothing to do with the electrical current they put out. 

I've seen a dog with a raw section on his neck *from a martingale. * The dog had grown and the collar was too small. The skin on his neck had grown around the collar and it had to be surgically removed. 

But neither your comment nor mine have anything to do with the proper use of the tool. I find it fascinating that no matter what the tool is, people who don't like it ONLY talk about it being misused. 



> Originally Posted By: selzerShe did not like the shock collar and did hide when the person tried to put it back on her.


The dog I described hid from anyone who had anything even resembling a collar. An electrical cord, a belt, even a piece of string of the appropriate length. It was quite sad to see. 



> Originally Posted By: selzerI have never seen a raw section from a martingale.


I have. This just means that your experience in this is different from mine. 



> Originally Posted By: selzerNow everything you may have said in this thread for me has been brought into question because of that statement.


If these discussion were taking place in a vacuum you might have some people who have not made up their minds agreeing with you. But since we have story after story from people who have had great success with the Ecollar, they know the truth. Ecollars are not _"torture devices"_ and you calling them that just makes you look silly and desperate.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

My gf uses an ecollar all the time on her dog.
My dog listens better than hers (lol) BESIDES the point.
Um she will hit the button & give Z a "zap" (?) when shes not listening.
So my question is to Lou- AFTER the dog listens to you ei, you say "sit" the dog does not listen, you "zap" it, then say it again? And then praise the dog when he sits?
I understand a bit about not praising sometimes.
If I say good boy too much, he thinks training is over & he starts screwing around. In that case I just demand it from him. Like he wont give me his ball if I say "drop it" in a fairly nice tone.
I have to get a gruff voice & when he drops it, I do not praise him.


Is that kinda how the collar training works?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Sorry Angel I can't make heads or tails out of your post. Is the first paragraph a quote from somewhere else that you've inserted a question into? If so, please supply the link so we can know the context of the statement. 

I'm also not sure of the how the queries about using praise fit into the rest of the discussion.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Nevermind


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm not a fan of the E-collar. i've never had a dog ( PB or mixed)
that needed one. i've never used NILF or popped any collars.
i always apply the "Soft Hands, Spoken Word" method. it's a great
book.

i always wonder if people are usuing mehtods for training
that aren't neccessary for their dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedad
> i always wonder if people are usuing mehtods for training
> that aren't neccessary for their dog.


Most people only come to the Ecollar AFTER they've tried other methods and have not gotten satisfactory results,


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RNevermind


OK. I'm happy to answer any questions about the Ecollar that are asked. But if I don't understand what's being asked, I can't respond.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

people post on here when should they get an E-collar? their dogs
are untrained pups. i'm not sure people use E-collars after
some other method didn't work.



> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: doggiedad
> ...


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

It's obvious that many on this thread are pet owners. Pet owners of pet quality dogs can do just fine with the basic mediocre OB training. They are fine with "FLUFFY" having to be told more than once to do something. Those of us who demand more from our dogs are not OK with our dogs doing that. 

Angel R states; 

"If I say good boy too much, he thinks training is over & he starts screwing around. In that case I just demand it from him." 

If you use word markers to release your dog, ie.. OK, Free... the dog will understand that GOOD BOY is praise not the release. Then you can praise him and he will continue doing what you want him to do with enthusiasm and continue until you release him.

As for your statement;

"Like he wont give me his ball if I say "drop it" in a fairly nice tone.
I have to get a gruff voice & when he drops it, I do not praise him."

You should not change your tone. Your tone should always stay the same. Some of use do have to fight the tendency to deepen our tone on the second command. If the dog knows the exercise then 1 command, If he doesn't do it a second command (same tone) with a correction... Until he does it. This teaches the dog that it's the same command and I have to do it on the first command or there is a price to pay for there being a second command to be given. 

The only thing your way teaches the dog is that I don't have to obey the command until they hear the harsher tone. If he's not a pet quality dog but rather a higher drive dog the older he gets, the stronger he gets and your going to have to give more commands even harsher toned to get him to do it. If he's really strong and confident he may not out the ball at all.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxIt's obvious that many on this thread are pet owners. Pet owners of pet quality dogs can do just fine with the basic mediocre OB training. They are fine with "FLUFFY" having to be told more than once to do something. Those of us who demand more from our dogs are not OK with our dogs doing that.


That's a gross generalization that may apply to the dog owning public at large, (you just have to watch a few episodes of Cesar Milan's show to see the level of nitwits that are out there) but I don't think it applies so much to the "pet" people here on this board. I'm one of those pet people, and I'm definitely not okay with having to repeat commands, I expect compliance the first time. I also object to your characterization of basic obedience training as "mediocre". It doesn't have to be any such thing if you make the effort to understand the concepts and apply them correctly. 

But I will say that I won't use the same level of force in training for basic OB skills and manners that I might for life or death situations. If I want my dogs to sit before I open the door for them I'll tell them once and wait. If they sit immediately - great, they get to go outside right now. If they don't - oh well, they'll have to wait. They learn very quickly that it's in their best interest to do what I ask of them because that's how they get what they want, and zero force is necessary to get that point across to them. In fact, for general house manners and rules, I rarely even give a command anymore, they know the drill and they do it automatically. In situations where they (or my cats) may be subject to harm if they don't comply immediately, then it's non-negotiable, and I'll do whatever it takes. 

As I mentioned in another thread, I do most of my at home training off leash, so physical corrections aren't even possible. I would much rather teach my dogs why they should obey me willingly and enthusiastically than with the threat of pain or discomfort if they don't. It's the difference between MAKING them obey and making them WANT to obey.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I currently have 2 pets out of working lines. I'm not okay with telling them more than once! They're german shepherds, capable of having perfect OB and held to a higher standard than most pets I see (my standards)

My older dog is a perfect walker, has perfect OB but she has a an issue that I just don't care enough about to correct. She chases small animals in the yard. She's learned through leash corrections not to chase squirrels/cats/etc on the street. I'm not out in the yard when a skunk comes through at 8pm. E-collar not going to work in this situation.

My younger dog (18 months) gets really excited on walks if my children are there. He feeds of their energy and wants to go romping off with them in the park.

E-collar might work - you tell me. He pulls through his prong collar when the kids are with us. I cann't give him enough corrections - rip my shoulder out trying







he still pulls.

This same dog can walk nicely for me - I use 2 leashes on him, one on his flat leather collar and the other on his prong collar. When the kids aren't there, he might need a few prong corrections on a 2 mile walk. He can walk nicely with my older dog and not need any corrections (again if the kids aren't there)

*My only hesitation with getting him an e-collar is I've see a few people out with them on their GSD. The dog makes a move to do something that could be verbally corrected (in my opinion from working with my own dogs) and the dog gets zapped. I don't want to be one of those people zapping their dog for looking at another dog*

That said, my pup's sire wears an e-collar outside. He's SchHII, very drivey. When we visited him, his owner zapped him a couple times for making a move like he was going to chase a squirrel.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxIt's obvious that many on this thread are pet owners. Pet owners of pet quality dogs can do just fine with the basic mediocre OB training. They are fine with "FLUFFY" having to be told more than once to do something. Those of us who demand more from our dogs are not OK with our dogs doing that.
> 
> Angel R states;
> 
> ...


Im not going to harshly correct him for not dropping HIS ball.
As long as I say a command in a deep serious voice & look him in the eyes he will drop his ball.
He is VERY VERY high drive & is extremly strong willed.
I do not need my dog to listen as though he was a police dog/competion dog.
Like I said earlier, theres 1 or 2 behaviors I would like to get rid of.
Other than not dropping his ball for me & chasing cats he is perfect in every way.
Are you a professional trainer?


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

SunCzarina, your dog sounds very nice. You stated:

"My older dog is a perfect walker, has perfect OB but she has a an issue that I just don't care enough about to correct. She chases small animals in the yard. She's learned through leash corrections not to chase squirrels/cats/etc on the street. I'm not out in the yard when a skunk comes through at 8pm. E-collar not going to work in this situation."

This is exactly the point. The dog did something that had to be changed. Chased squirrels/cats. You took care of the issue to your satisfaction with leash corrections. It could have been done with an E-collar as well, just as easily. No one says anyone "should" train with an E-collar. Just that it can be done. Many on here say they HATE how people in favor of electric always jump to its' defense. Those who actually know how to use one HATE hearing how inhumane they are. 

My way of thinking is that if you can get your dog to perform to the level you want with the least possible aids (pinch/prong/electric/leash or collar for that matter) the better. Although whatever aid/tool you do use, make sure you know how to use it. If you don't know how to, or don't care to use it DON'T. That way it best for the dog and you.

Most importantly train your dog how you want too and to your satisfaction...PERIOD! Your the one that feeds it and lives with it every day. So who cares if someone thinks your dog could do better? In the end he's still YOUR dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadpeople post on here when should they get an E-collar? their dogs
> are untrained pups.


Manufacturers say to wait until a dog is six months old before using an Ecollar. I agree. 



> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi'm not sure people use E-collars after
> some other method didn't work.


I said, _"many people."_ 

I see no reason why people should try other methods first but opinions vary.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> But I will say that I won't use the same level of force in training for basic OB skills and manners that I might for life or death situations.


I consider the recall to be a _"life or death situation."_ The same can be said for the sit (or down) –at–a–distance. The first calls the dog back from danger and the latter stops the dog if the danger is between the dog and the handler. In this case "danger" can be something like a busy road. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom As I mentioned in another thread, I do most of my at home training off leash, *so physical corrections aren't even possible. * [Emphasis added]


Sure they are. It's not necessary to have a leash to give a dog physical corrections. 



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom I would much rather teach my dogs why they should obey me willingly and enthusiastically than with the threat of pain or discomfort if they don't. It's the difference between MAKING them obey and making them WANT to obey.


A dog is *MADE *to obey if someone physically forces him to do something. Such as pulling up on his leash and pressing down on his butt to put him into a sit. Or pulling on a long line to bring him closer to the handler. 

Dogs trained with any method that gives results *WANT *to obey to avoid a punishment and/or to get a reinforcement.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Some people objected to R. Mattox' characterization of pet owners who are content to give Fluffy more than one command to get compliance. The fact is that while many pet owners are NOT content with this, many more are. Go to a dog park or a big box pet store and listen to how many people have to repeat commands to get compliance.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina My older dog is a perfect walker, has perfect OB but she has a an issue that I just don't care enough about to correct. She chases small animals in the yard. She's learned through leash corrections not to chase squirrels/cats/etc on the street. I'm not out in the yard when a skunk comes through at 8pm. E-collar not going to work in this situation.


I'll have to disagree on this and based on having "crittered" (that means that I've taught dogs not to chase game) over 200 of them, and had clients to probably hundreds more, I know whereof I speak. This issue comes up occasionally on SAR dog lists. People often think that the best response for this is to train a good recall. But they're helpless if the chase starts out of their sight and the dog runs out of voice range before they know he's even in a chase. 

I developed a protocol to stop police dogs from chasing cats during yard–to–yard searches. These chases often happen out of sight of the handler so the protocol was developed to stop the chase before it begins. Then, no command is necessary, the dog does the work by himself. 

If you'd like your dog to stop this chasing, and it could be life threatening if he manages to get out onto the street, you can do it quite easily. HERE'S how to do it.  



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina E-collar might work - you tell me.


Jenn I'll guarantee that if you get a quality unit and follow my protocol it WILL WORK. I offer my clients a money back guarantee if they're not satisfied with their results and I've never had anyone ask. Tell you what, if you buy the collar from me and aren't satisfied with your results, if you return it to the manufacturer within 30 days (plenty of time to train the recall and the sit, I'll give you a full refund, including reimbursing you for the postage! I only ask a couple of things. I ask that you read and follow the instructions and if there's anything that's not clear that you ask me about it. I'll give you my phone number so that you can get the quickest response. I ask that you start the work in a timely fashion after receiving the Ecollar and that you do at least four training sessions per week. 



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina He pulls through his prong collar when the kids are with us. I cann't give him enough corrections - rip my shoulder out trying he still pulls.


I’m gonna guess that you tell me this to show how he takes the pain of the prong collar and doesn't even blink. How a dog responds to any kind of correction collar or how hard or soft he is, has nothing to do with how he'll respond to an Ecollar. 



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina This same dog can walk nicely for me - I use 2 leashes on him, one on his flat leather collar and the other on his prong collar. When the kids aren't there, he might need a few prong corrections on a 2 mile walk. He can walk nicely with my older dog and not need any corrections (again if the kids aren't there)


If you follow my protocol you should be walking off leash with your dog long before the 30 days is up. A leash may be required by law in your area but that's the only reason that you'll need it. 



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina *My only hesitation with getting him an e-collar is I've see a few people out with them on their GSD. The dog makes a move to do something that could be verbally corrected (in my opinion from working with my own dogs) and the dog gets zapped. I don't want to be one of those people zapping their dog for looking at another dog* [Emphasis original]


Then don't be! LOL. There's nothing that's forcing you to do what these people are doing. After a short time spent training, you can get compliance with a voice command. ONLY if that does not work, do you need to press the button. 



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina That said, my pup's sire wears an e-collar outside. He's SchHII, very drivey. When we visited him, his owner zapped him a couple times for making a move like he was going to chase a squirrel.


Had the owner followed my protocol for this, the squirrel chasing would stop. The work is done at the level that the dog first feels the stim.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Im not going to harshly correct him for not dropping HIS ball.
> As long as I say a command in a deep serious voice & look him in the eyes he will drop his ball.


How harsh or soft a correction is, is really not up to you to determine. It's the dog who decides if a correction if harsh, soft or just right. He's the ONLY ONE in the picture who knows. What we think is irrelevant and immaterial. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R He is VERY VERY high drive & is extremly strong willed.
> I do not need my dog to listen as though he was a police dog/competion dog.


You might. If he gets out and is running towards a busy street, you might only get ONE chance to give him a recall command before he's under the wheels of a passing car. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel R Like I said earlier, theres 1 or 2 behaviors I would like to get rid of.
> Other than not dropping his ball for me & chasing cats he is perfect in every way.


You said earlier that you'd only been working on one of them for four days. I'd suggest that you keep working, that's not long enough for many methods to take effect. But if they don't work (I'm not making a prediction here, just a suggestion) in what you consider to be a timely manner, I think it's time to look to other methods for the solution. 

The question naturally arises, what is _"a timely manner?"_ I can't tell you. I'd think that six months if plenty long enough but I know of one owner who spent four years training a recall before getting results. That's waaaaay too long for me, but she thought it was just fine.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

If I have a distraction for him, (his ball) he would much rather have his ball than chase a cat.
But I dont always have a ball on hand.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Jenn,
That statement about not wanting to be a zap happy(my words not hers) owner is confusing me.If you don't want to zap the dog you won't.I don't think you would do it unless a verbal didn't work.
I do think it would help your Otto situation though.My dogs get a verbal and if it doesn't work then they get the correction.Our walk the other day was a back up only E collar run.I only used it when she jumped the trail and went in the road and didn't come when I called.As soon as she got the stim on the 2 setting she was back on the trail before I knew it.I have not used it for my similar situation I have when Lexi and the kids are involved but I plan to in the spring when we all can walk again.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGJenn, That statement about not wanting to be a zap happy(my words not hers) owner is confusing me.If you don't want to zap the dog you won't.I don't think you would do it unless a verbal didn't work.


I was confused too Allie. Nothing is making Jenn press the button unless she decides to. For people who use the Ecollar as just a correcting device, they should think of it about the same as a leash except they should realize that it provides LESS information. A leash correction carries with it the direction of the pull that when properly applied gives direction to the dog. For example when a dog is heeling wide, the leash correction is best applied horizontally at the level of the dog's neck directly to the right (for a dog that heels on the left). This helps to pull the dog in the direction he's supposed to move. 

But the Ecollar does not have this advantage, it only applies the discomfort part of the equation, not the directionality. Another reason that I don't like it for this purpose. 

But like a leash, one would NOT just press the button for the beginning of an undesired behavior. One should FIRST try a command to see if that stops the behavior. ONLY if the command fails would one give a leash correction and if you're using the Ecollar in this fashion, you'd give the command first and only if the dog didn't obey would you give a stim. If you have to keep giving corrections (in the situation that Jenn described) then you're not training, you're managing.


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## Glacier (Feb 25, 2009)

This thread has been very informative. I'm new to dog training and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about different training tools in an unbias manner. Every tool seems to have its advantages and disadvantages.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleIf you have to keep giving corrections (in the situation that Jenn described) then you're not training, you're managing.


That's exactly how it feels - managing him. This is a dog who can heel perfectly. I stop, he sits without me telling him to. I walk, he heels. I say 'at ease' he walks nicely on his 4' of lead with no pulling. He sees squirrels, other dogs, even cats, I can control him with my voice. I take him to downtown providence for training walks, through traffic, crowded sidewalks, just looking for strange things for him. Nothing bothers him, he walks nicely and I even get compliments on how well trained he is (which always makes me wonder what's going wrong with the dog that person has!)

Add my children (4 y/o b/g twins and 6 y/o boy) to the walk, he looses it. I'm constantly reminding him to heel, reminding him to sit every time I stop. We stop and turn often. Then he gets flustered and starts jumping on me - last week he jumped up and scratched me across the face. I popped his prong collar so hard he cried. I felt like an abusive owner. 

When we take the kids to the park, he can't stand to have them run off to play in a pile of leaves or run up a hill. Hates it when they run in front of him, starts whining and pulling. It's very hard to get 3 young kids to walk in the park and not want to run around. 

Otto's pulling and whining to be with the kids makes it very unenjoyability for me, so usually if it's a park or beach outing, my older dog usually goes, not the pup who needs training. Since last summer, I can only think of two outings with him and the kids that went well - one was a beach day and he got chased down by a loose dog and still managed to keep it together. The other was a parade of all things where he walked in nicely and sat for 2 hours watching militia men drumming and shooting muskets. So go figure what's going to set him off.

Would an e-collar help me in these situations? I'm not so sure becuase it would only be when the kids are with me. Is my timing going to be right with the distraction of 3 children, I don't know. 

Do the children need more training, possibly.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> That's exactly how it feels - managing him. This is a dog who can heel perfectly. I stop, he sits without me telling him to. I walk, he heels. I say 'at ease' he walks nicely on his 4' of lead with no pulling. He sees squirrels, other dogs, even cats, I can control him with my voice. I take him to downtown providence for training walks, through traffic, crowded sidewalks, just looking for strange things for him. Nothing bothers him, he walks nicely and I even get compliments on how well trained he is (which always makes me wonder what's going wrong with the dog that person has!)
> 
> Add my children (4 y/o b/g twins and 6 y/o boy) to the walk, he looses it. I'm constantly reminding him to heel, reminding him to sit every time I stop. We stop and turn often. Then he gets flustered and starts jumping on me - last week he jumped up and scratched me across the face. I popped his prong collar so hard he cried. I felt like an abusive owner.


What you're describing is a dog that clearly knows what he's supposed to be doing. This is supported by the fact that he performs as trained when you're out alone. But when the distraction of the children is added, his training goes out the window. The answer to this is to give him the consequences of his actions that he's earned. 

You did this once but felt bad about it! You gave him an appropriate correction, _"he cried"_ and you thought that you were abusing him. This is because you either don't understand that's exactly what he needs or you've been influenced by what one old time trainer called "the wincers." These are people who "wince" every time a dog receives a firm correction. Lesser corrections that you give are nagging. Nagging will break up a marriage and it will give you a poorly trained dog; one that needs management for the rest of his life At this point in his training, he needs to learn that his disobedience is not acceptable and will no longer be tolerated. Better to give one appropriate correction than to give 1,000 that do not get the point across. 



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina When we take the kids to the park, he can't stand to have them run off to play in a pile of leaves or run up a hill. Hates it when they run in front of him, starts whining and pulling. It's very hard to get 3 young kids to walk in the park and not want to run around.


The problem is not with your kids, but with your dog. Think of them as just another distraction. 



> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina Would an e-collar help me in these situations? I'm not so sure becuase it would only be when the kids are with me. Is my timing going to be right with the distraction of 3 children, I don't know.


It might be. You'd do the basic work away from the kids and only introduce them as a distraction. 

But more it depends on your willingness to use the appropriate level of correction. You're not an abusive owner because you made your dog squeak when you corrected him. You've moving closer to becoming a trainer because you understand that he knows what he's supposed to do, he's just not doing it. You're making excuses for him. Stop doing this, give him a few corrections that make him squeak and you'll find two things. One is that he starts doing what he's supposed to do even when the kids are present. The other is that you have to give fewer and fewer corrections of any kind. 

Now you're training instead of managing. 

Giving too low level of correction is the reason that many people never move away from management and into training. 

The Ecollar will help you gain off leash compliance much more easily. Especially since you've been too–soft–correcting for a while and your dog has learned to gamble. Sometimes he can get away with it but once in a while you demand that he perform. He'll never become reliable until you become consistent. An Ecollar won't make someone who gives weak corrections into a good trainer. Until you accept that the dog brings the squeaking on himself, it just means that you'll be nagging with a different tool. 

I'd suggest that you learn to use the tools that you have. 

Please don't be offended by my tone. It's called tough love. I want you and your dog to enjoy each other but until you become the leader and give the dog what he's showing you that he needs, that won't happen


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

While I felt bad about giving him such a harsh correction, it did make him calm down and walk nicely with the twins that day. It is something I need to get over personally - he's no longer that adorable 10 week old puppy who was so easy to teach everything to He's an 18 month old with really obnoxious behavior when he's out in public with my children. Yes, he does know better, guess I just have to get over not wanting to give him a harsh correction. 

I had no problem popping Luther wiht the prong when he needed it, made him a great dog. Luther was very much the same hardheaded personality as Otto. Only difference with Luther is that I adopted him about the same age Otto is now and Luther had been getting away with bad behavior for a long time.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina It is something I need to get over personally - he's no longer that adorable 10 week old puppy who was so easy to teach everything to He's an 18 month old with really obnoxious behavior when he's out in public with my children. Yes, he does know better, guess I just have to get over not wanting to give him a harsh correction.


You got it girl.
I hated to correct Athena.I saw her as a real soft dog and hated to correct her but I had no choice.As you saw with her at the meet up if I hadn't done the 7 weeks of training we wouldn't have been there doing so nicely.Those 7 weeks helped us out in more than the aggression.Our friend Steve can't believe how we are together now.We've impressed him.
Otto is a lot harder dog than Athena and needs to know you are in total control.He'll handle any training you decide to do with him.He'll love you even more for making him behave and be able to walk with his kids more.I think you'll accomplish this with the prong too but if you decide to use the e collar it will work also.
Good Luck with the boy..


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

No shock collar coalition:
http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition.html

Some articles:
http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition/nscclinks.html


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

You know LisaT...That is rediculous. If you don't want to use an e-collar then don't use one. BUT do not try to tell others what to do.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTNo shock collar coalition:
> http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition.html
> 
> Some articles:
> http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition/nscclinks.html


THANKS!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgYou know LisaT...That is rediculous. If you don't want to use an e-collar then don't use one. BUT do not try to tell others what to do.


Your posts are REDICULAS!









How is she telling people what to do?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgYou know LisaT...That is rediculous. If you don't want to use an e-collar then don't use one. BUT do not try to tell others what to do.


I am merely posting information that others may or may not find interesting or informative. 

You may choose not to read it. You may choose not to follow their recommendations. 

However, do not put words in my mouth.

This is not a board that only allows pro-shock collar information to be posted.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgYou know LisaT...That is rediculous. If you don't want to use an e-collar then don't use one. BUT do not try to tell others what to do.

















Because she posted links in opposition to your opinion? Or maybe "rediculous" has a different meaning the correctly spelled version of it. 

I see a reoccurring theme with your posts...you post asking a question under the pretense that you want a discussion to "learn" but it seems you already have a preconceived notion in your head and anything other than that it "ridiculous" or "irrelevant". 

So why do you post if you already hold all the answers to the universe?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgYou know LisaT...That is rediculous. If you don't want to use an e-collar then don't use one. BUT do not try to tell others what to do.


And the same advice can be taken by the folks that use e-collars in regards to folks that prefer to use other methods.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was just glad that there are others out there that do not like them. 

But, people are out there trying and in some places succeeding to ban chaining dogs. It seems an underlying theme that when people do not like something, the jump on the bandwagon and suggest that everyone not like it and prohibit it. 

For example, if you want to speuter your dog, good for you, go speuter and blessings and peace. Well now your dog is speutered, you should be happy, but no. Now the rest of the population should speuter their dogs. Well, guldurnit, they are not speutering them fast enough, lets pass laws making them speuter. 

I am not surprised that there are people wanting to ban shock collars, hunting dogs, prong collars, crates, invisible fencing, electric fencing, barbed wire, dog ownership, breeding, and flexi-leads.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

everyone seems to be in a hurry to take everything personally lately!

my assumption, reading that the websites was ridiculous, was that he meant it was ridiculous that someone wants to start a movement to ban the entire tool.

not every tool is right for everyone and any tool can be misused. I think that all laws/ideas that are founded on "for your own good" should be carefully reviewed before they are implemented. 99% of them are feel good knee jerk reactions passed on the basis of wanting to feel like we are doing something to solve a problem. and that never works. people will either A) find another way to cause the same symptom (in this case hurting a dog) or B) go ahead and keep doing what they were doing before (IE gun control because criminals don't care that they are breaking the law)


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

good grief who can read thru all that? how long has the ecollar been around? someone managed to train military dogs long before the ecollar, to train police dogs, seeing eye dogs long before some fool came up with an electronic device to shock dogs into compliance.
I think they would work better on kids-dogs tend to listen.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTNo shock collar coalition:


Just more of the same propaganda from people who know little to nothing about the modern use of Ecollars. 



> Originally Posted By: LisaT Some articles:


The first article on the list contains many complete lies and highly misleading statements. It's an "open letter" from Karen Overall. It says this,


> Quote: No, I have not changed my opinion and it is that there is never any reason for pets to be shocked as a part of therapy or treatment.


We're not talking about EITHER _"therapy or treatment"_ in this discussion. We're talking about training. 

The letter continues,


> Quote:
> There are now terrific scientific and research data that show the harm that shock collars can do behaviorally.


Ms. Overall cites the Schalke study and says that it


> Quote: … documented these damaging effects (Stress symptoms caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs … in everyday life situations.


In truth, a main finding of this study was,


> Quote: …animals, which were able to clearly associate the electric stimulus with their action, i.e. touching the prey, and consequently were able to predict and control the stressor, * did not show considerable or persistent stress indicators. * [Emphasis added]


Why anti–Ecollar people continue to cite this study is a mystery; especially in these discussions. The study clearly showed that it's ONLY when stim is completely random do _"persistent stress indicators"_ appear. That would obviously come under the heading of ABUSE; pressing the button randomly and for no apparent reason. This is NEVER done in training and my methods CLEARLY shows dogs the association between the stim and their actions. 

Ms. Overall next cites the Schilder Study (which is also linked to). This is widely regarded as one of the poorest pieces of research ever done on Ecollars. I've written a response to it that you can read HERE.  

Steven Lindsay, author of the three volume set of books, _ "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training."_ critiqued this study (Lindsay, BTW is NOT a proponent of Ecollars).


> Quote: This was an *intentionally deceptive study, designed to reach predetermined conclusions. * And that couldn't have supported the findings that it reached even if it had been competently done. [Emphasis added]


Instead of Ecollars causing problems for dogs, Lindsay adds,


> Quote: *… electronic training appears to promote positive social attachment, safety, and reward effects * that may be provided and amplified via affectionate petting and reassuring praise. The preponderance of scientific evidence suggests that ES escape/avoidance and pain reduction should *promote long-term effects that are incompatible with fear and stress, making the trainer an object of significant extrinsic reward that actually enhances the dog's welfare via an improved capacity for social coping, learning, and adaptation. * [Emphasis added]


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI was just glad that there are others out there that do not like them.


It's almost universal that those _"that do not like them"_ have little or no knowledge or personal experience with modern Ecollar methods. Many of them have never even seen an Ecollar used with them.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SuzyE
> how long has the ecollar been around?


Ecollars were invented in the late 1960's. 



> Originally Posted By: SuzyEsomeone managed to train military dogs long before the ecollar, to train police dogs, seeing eye dogs long before some fool came up with an electronic device to shock dogs into compliance.


Only someone who knows nothing of modern Ecollar use would make a comment about _"shocking dogs into compliance."_ By this same sort of thinking, people who use pinch collars _"force their dogs into compliance."_ People who use treats or toys, deprive the dog of the treat or toy and thereby _"force the dog into compliance." _ 

Before computers we wrote letters, did research at the library and had community meetings to discuss this sort of thing. Odd but I don't see any movement afoot to go backwards in those venues!?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Thank you Selzer and Dainerra,

I may or may not agree with you regarding this device, but at least we can agree that just because you may not use or like a certain tool, there is no reason to ban it or launch "smear" campaigns against it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lou...when I use an e-collar on my GSD or our fostered Dobie they seem very intimidated by it. I only use the vibrate feature on them.

The dobie can not have a prong collar on as he is very reactive to it and chews on my hand. He doesn't pay any attention to you on a regular choke (and I don't like those anyways) but he's a bit neurotic and sometimes he will work for treats and sometimes he shuts down. He gets so bent out of shape that he pooped on the floor one time but when I put the e-collar on he would focus on what I was trying to teach him.

If he is intimidated by the e-collar, reactive to a prong and could care less about any other training tool...what is the solution? Leaving the e-collar on for longer periods so he is used to it?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Hey Jax, actually Ava dislikes the vibrate mode. I can use it as a reminder, but I actually use the lowest noticeable stim regularly and do not get that strong reaction that the vibrate gets.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

A stim on him sends him running for his crate. Very nervous, very soft dog.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm sorry Jax, I hope Lou can give you some tips, you can send him an e0mail at his website, he is really good at getting back very quickly and will talk to you at length to help you work through the issues.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Betsy! I would like him to answer here also because I can't be the only one with neurotic foster dog. The only thing he wants is his own person to curl up with.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Feel your pain, I have had a few neurotic dogs myself, have you tried a martingale? I had a real sensitive foster once that responded well to one. The presure is less than a pinch or choke, and a nylon one may help you with the transition and help you build some trust. 

If you cant get your e-collar to stim low enough, you may need to upgrade to a different collar or send off for repair. Mine needs to be sent off right now because all of the sudden the stim was too high, I check my collar before I put it on Ava, so I noticed it before it went on the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

yeah...he has a nylon non-slip on. Been there, tried all that. Now I need professional advice for him.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08Lou...when I use an e-collar on my GSD or our fostered Dobie they seem very intimidated by it. I only use the vibrate feature on them.


HI Jax, I addressed this back a few pages ago. I think THIS LINK.  will get you there. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08If he is intimidated by the e-collar, reactive to a prong and could care less about any other training tool...what is the solution? Leaving the e-collar on for longer periods so he is used to it?


I'd suggest using the stim instead of the vibe feature or getting the UT collar mentioned in the previous post. I've seen a surprising number dogs panic when they felt a vibe. I've never come across any dog that reacted that way to the lowest level of stim that they could feel. To find that level of stim look at THIS ARTICLE.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08A stim on him sends him running for his crate. Very nervous, very soft dog.


He has you trained very well doesn't he? joke joke joke, no offense intended. But it shows how excellent dogs are at getting their way. 

This is REALLY very simple. He's felt something (the stim) that's new and foreign to him. It makes him uncomfortable so he runs to his crate. BANGO, you stop pressing the button and he's figured out how to make the discomfort stop! One repetition learning!

I'd suggest that you read and follow my protocol HERE.  After finding his working level (linked in previous post). When you do this, his crate is nowhere near and he has no choice but to move towards you. RIGHT NOW he know only one way to make the stim stop; he runs to his crate. You're going to show him that he's mistaken and that it does not work and that the ONLY thing that does work to stop the stim is for him to move towards you. 

It's really quite easy. 

You seem to be the antithesis of the pet owner that the anti's keep having nightmares about. *As I've previously described in this thread *when you saw that you weren't getting results, *you stopped *using the Ecollar. According to their predictions you're supposed to keep increasing the stim level higher and higher, causing massive amounts of pain to your dog. 

While I'm sure that some idiots will do that, I'm even more sure that MOST people will have your reaction, stop using the tool and go looking for information.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyFeel your pain, I have had a few neurotic dogs myself


Neurosis is a mental or personality disturbance not attributable to any known neurological or organic dysfunction. Most of us have one or more. Psychosis is any severe mental disorder in which contact with reality is lost or highly distorted. Most of us (I hope) DO NOT have any of these. The main difference (as far as a layman) is concerned is that neuroses do not interfere significantly with our daily life and psychoses do. 

It's probably the same with dogs. 

If you cater to a neurosis it usually gets worse. A small fear of spiders can turn into a debilitating condition where you're afraid of dark places or going out at night. In short a psychosis. But if you work on it, you can usually make it go away or at least get it to be less important in your life. 

The first time my daughters saw a spider on the wall in the bedroom, they ran screaming from the room. I thought someone was being murdered and ran in that direction, gun in hand! I let them know in no uncertain terms that this was not acceptable. It took awhile working with them. Now they'll get a jar, trap the spider and set it loose outside. Black Widows, of course don't get that treatment. I've taught them the difference. 

It's probably the same with dogs. (Except for the part about the jar. Lol.) 

If you cater to your dog's neurosis, in this case running to his crate when he finds something scary, it will probably get worse. But if you work with it, it will probably go away or at least get better. Dogs are amazingly resilient, Perhaps the most resilient animals on the planet. They're not going to melt or come apart if they suffer a little discomfort. Babying them turns them into well … babies. 



> Originally Posted By: BetsyIf you cant get your e-collar to stim low enough, you may need to upgrade to a different collar or send off for repair.


I recommend only three brands of Ecollar. Dogtra, Tri-Tronics, and Unleashed Technology. The collar needs to have at least 15 levels of stim and more is better.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a dogtra 200ncp Gold. I believe his nervousness comes from lack of socialization. He's very sweet but I don't know how much of the world, past a place of business, he actually saw. He's 8 years old and has NEVER been off lead. He's never had a toy because "he just chewed them up" and has no idea what to do with one. Loud voices send him running as does touching him with your feet...you can do that math on that one.

Very interesting that they react to the vibe. I wonder why that is.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Michelle, that sounds like a dog that I wouldn't put an e-collar on, I would trust your instincts on that one.

While I don't use e-collars, and wouldn't use one myself, there are a few (rare) instances, and type of dog that I can see one being used, by those wiling to use that tool. But the dog that you describe sounds like you will do more damage than good, though others I"m sure will tell you differently.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok..read through the first two pages. I understand the lowest stim necessary and that you give the command and stim simultaneously until he starts to respond, the release of the stim being his reward.

However, I have two problems...

1) An 8 year old dog who spends the entire time outside munching on grass. We've been out there for hours and he never stops. It's almost like being on that much grass is so new to him that he's overcome with joy. So how do you get a dog like that focused?
2) A dog with no interest in toys. So proofing the command in the way spelled out on your site is impossible. His main distraction is cats. Hates them...well not for lunch..I've caught him tasting a couple...but...

On the plus side, he doesn't seem to know any commands other than sit and down so there wouldn't be any retraining.



> Quote: You may see “clamming,” freezing up and remaining stationary, particularly with the more stoical breeds.


He does shut down very easily. This is exactly what he does with a regular collar or a choke correction collar. He will not even move for a treat once he has reached that stage. I do not think he does it out of stubbornness. It seems more of a self preservation tactic for him. Once I put the e-collar on him he would work but by that time he was so fried it was just all over and time to put everything up and let him de-stress. I haven't worked with him since because I felt I was doing more harm than good and something needed to change.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08I have a dogtra 200ncp Gold.


That's a fine Ecollar and should serve you well. It's considered a "low to medium" power collar. The highest level on it is about 2/3 of the power of the "professional" models. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 I believe his nervousness comes from lack of socialization.


You may be right. But you also may be wrong. Since (I don't think you know his background) it's just a guess. If you base your treatment program on a guess and you turn out to be wrong, your treatment program may be wrong too. 

His nervousness may also be genetic. Dobies are not known these days for being stable, relaxed dogs. They were ruined by greedy breeders 30-40 years ago. There are still some people breeding sound Dobies but they're outnumbered by the BYB's. 

His nervousness may also be medical, in which case a vet check with a thyroid panel will probably show it. 

Except for the medical reason, I don't care why a dog is nervous. Such dogs are PERFECT candidates for the Ecollar because of its impersonal nature. Done properly the dog does not associate the stim with the handler, but with his own behavior. 

I doubt that anyone here has ever worked with a dog that was as nervous and as fearful as  Roma, (click for the story) a dog I worked with in Colorado. Her owner had tried the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" (and that's not meant as a dig) for about two years before trying the Ecollar. I gave her visible results in two training sessions. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 He's very sweet


Sometimes this sweetness is the dog offering calming signals, one after the other.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTMichelle, that sounds like a dog that I wouldn't put an e-collar on, I would trust your instincts on that one.


I don't think I've ever seen you talk about a dog that you WOULD put an Ecollar on. lol. People who don't like Ecollars will find excuse after excuse as to why someone should not use one on a given dog. 

I know from having put Ecollars on more than 3,000 dogs, many of them fearful, that this is a good candidate. (Excepting, of course, medical reasons for the problem and then it should be treated medically and THEN the Ecollar used for training). 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 While I don't use e-collars, and wouldn't use one myself, there are a few (rare) instances, and type of dog that I can see one being used, by those wiling to use that tool. But the dog that you describe sounds like you will do more damage than good,


Please tell us what _"damage"_ you think Michelle might do.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08ok..read through the first two pages. I understand the lowest stim necessary and that you give the command and stim simultaneously until he starts to respond, the release of the stim being his reward.
> 
> However, I have two problems...
> 
> 1) An 8 year old dog who spends the entire time outside munching on grass. We've been out there for hours and he never stops. It's almost like being on that much grass is so new to him that he's overcome with joy. So how do you get a dog like that focused?


Don't worry about it. I'd go someplace where there was no grass for him to munch on and start the training. the focus will come as you progress. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 2) A dog with no interest in toys. So proofing the command in the way spelled out on your site is impossible. His main distraction is cats. Hates them...well not for lunch..I've caught him tasting a couple...but...


Then you can use treats, praise (obviously you can't throw it) or anything else that the dog is interested in. It's not essential that you do the proofing as that is suggested. You can walk him by cats instead. Please don't throw the cats, they don't care for it very much. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 On the plus side, he doesn't seem to know any commands other than sit and down so there wouldn't be any retraining.


Pretend that he doesn’t know ANYTHING and follow the protocols as written. One mistake that people make is that they skip something thinking "Oh he already knows how to do that." he may, but he does not know what it means when stim is added to the picture. The method makes it easy for the dog to make the proper associations. If you freelance something, you're on your own. 

On the "articles" pages it says this.


> Quote: The protocols are written as they are because they've been found to work after years of testing. *If you're a beginner, this is very much a "read and follow the instructions carefully and closely" situation. *If you're the type of person who doesn't read the instructions when you get a new toy, the Ecollar and these methods are probably not for you. If you decide to skip a step or modify the protocol you may get the desired result and you may not. You may get what appears to be a good result only to find later on, that a problem has developed because you've skipped a step. In some ways dog training is like building a house. You need a good foundation or the rest of the project will come crashing down. [Emphasis original]


Michelle quotes from my website,


> Quote: You may see “clamming,” freezing up and remaining stationary, particularly with the more stoical breeds.





> Originally Posted By: Jax08 He does shut down very easily.


From what you've said about him, it sounds like "shutting down" is his way of getting you to stop bothering him. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 This is exactly what he does with a regular collar or a choke correction collar. He will not even move for a treat once he has reached that stage.


Good thing my methods don't rely on treats! lol



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 I do not think he does it out of stubbornness. It seems more of a self preservation tactic for him.


I'd agree. And it works. When he does it, you stop what you're doing. 



> Originally Posted By: Jax08 Once I put the e-collar on him he would work but by that time he was so fried it was just all over and time to put everything up and let him de-stress.


You'll probably see some stress because he's already made a bad association with the Ecollar. You'll have to over come that. But it should only take you a few sessions.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

yes it is true that you should never coddle a dog for fear-use a 'chill out there is nothing wrong' attitude. that was the single best advice from my trainers.
I believe that anyone who has to use electric shock shouldn't own a dog and definetly NOT a GSD. Quit comparing a prong to a shock collar, that is ridiculous. For those who have to resort to a shock collar there are always cats and hamsters and such!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SuzyEyes it is true that you should never coddle a dog for fear-use a 'chill out there is nothing wrong' attitude. that was the single best advice from my trainers.
> I believe that anyone who has to use electric shock shouldn't own a dog and definetly NOT a GSD. Quit comparing a prong to a shock collar, that is ridiculous. For those who have to resort to a shock collar there are always cats and hamsters and such!


That comment just hit a real bad spot for me....Your saying that because I use an e collar for back up so my dog can run free in a field or our yard I shouldn't own a dog.....If I wouldn't get thrown off here I would tell you what is in my mind but since I like to keep learning I'll tone it down.
Maybe people with closed minds shouldn't own dogs.

I am sitting here shaking my head in total disgust over that comment.I think us owners that use the collar correctly are better owners since we can control our dogs no matter what and give them ways of exploring.
I am so glad for you that you have had easy dogs that haven't challenged you.I regret the day you finally come across one.

I just want to know why people who use invisable fencing don't get this type of treatment?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SuzyEyes it is true that you should never coddle a dog for fear-use a 'chill out there is nothing wrong' attitude. that was the single best advice from my trainers.


One minute I'm mirroring the _"single best advice from [your] trainers."_ and the next I'm the devil LOL. 



> Originally Posted By: SuzyE I believe that anyone who has to use electric shock shouldn't own a dog and definetly NOT a GSD. Quit comparing a prong to a shock collar, that is ridiculous.


Any comparison between an Ecollar and a prong collar IS ridiculous. The Ecollar is much more versatile and much more gentle. AND it can't cause any physical injury from the stim. 



> Originally Posted By: SuzyE For those who have to resort to a shock collar there are always cats and hamsters and such!


Sorry but I don't understand this comment. But I have a feeling it's not complimentary. Lol.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> That comment just hit a real bad spot for me....Your saying that because I use an e collar for back up so my dog can run free in a field or our yard I shouldn't own a dog.....If I wouldn't get thrown off here I would tell you what is in my mind but since I like to keep learning I'll tone it down.
> Maybe people with closed minds shouldn't own dogs.


Isn't it amazing that these folks think that WE'RE the ones with the closed minds? THEY refuse to learn something new, but WE'RE the closed minded ones! 

Don't let these people get to you, it's part of their agenda. If you'd been rude in return to the way that you were treated, this thread would be on its way to being shutdown. That's their real agenda, to stop the flow of information and the discussions about Ecollars. The more people learn, the more likely they are to turn to them. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieGI am sitting here shaking my head in total disgust over that comment.I think us owners that use the collar correctly are better owners since we can control our dogs no matter what and give them ways of exploring.
> I am so glad for you that you have had easy dogs that haven't challenged you.I regret the day you finally come across one.


Don't lose heart. I've had many people get the dog you describe, discover that their methods are a complete and utter failure with him and come running for an Ecollar. NOW many of them will say, "I'll NEVER need or use an Ecollar." I hope when and if the time ever comes, they're big enough to admit their error rather than simply kill the dog that they can't train. 

The antis are some of the most unreasonable, illogical people you'll ever come across. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieGI just want to know why people who use invisable fencing don't get this type of treatment?


It is puzzling isn't it?


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## Carol Boche (Jun 9, 2009)

I don't usually post here, most of the times I just read posts and either laugh or wonder why some people have dogs. The whole "OMG I can't hurt Fifi crap" and treating dogs like children is hilarious especially when people have NO clue what they are talking about when it comes to training.....any kind of training. 

Sometimes I don't agree with Lou.....but I do on this thread and he does KNOW what he is doing when it comes to training. 

AllieG...you are not alone in your frustration and disgust. 

The e-collar is a great tool for those that are open minded and willing to use it correctly. When it first came out it was brandished as a mid-evil torture device, which it is not. 

In the correct hands it can be the best tool in the box sometimes.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

Yes paige has been an unbelievably easy GSD, in fact it is hard to believe she has been so easy, guess i got very lucky. ; )


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was going to say that Suzy has Paige, and if she can manage her without your precious E-collar, then they probably are not all that necessary. 

What is irritating reading through this stuff is that people who like e-collars have a right to ATTACK people who do not like them and think they are not necessary. They say things like you have only easy dogs, and I would say what I think but do not want to be banned. 

No dogs are not children, but if you douse a child with gasoline and set it on fire, or douse a dog with gasoline and set it on fire, a pretty good case of cruelty could be had for either. 

Just because it is a dog, and the collar is legal does not mean it is a great tool. 

Just because the dog gets excited when he sees it does not mean he likes it. 

My parents' dog, Cujo, gets exceited when he hears his choke chain, and everyone thinks they are dangerous and torture devices.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SuzyEyes it is true that you should never coddle a dog for fear-use a 'chill out there is nothing wrong' attitude. that was the single best advice from my trainers.
> ...


You arent alone Allie, I just wonder what the recomendation would be on a dog that wasnt able to be trained with the posters method, Put the dog down as untrainable maybe? Or maybe kennel it for the rest of it's life, for its own good of course.....

There are those that refuse to actually read through Lou's protocols and for them that is a shame, there will never be an understanding for the tool with out the willingness to open the mind and get past whatever it is that they are afraid of. Lou has some great information and it is definately not a quick fix or an easy out by any means. I dont agree with everyone on this website, and am downright horrified by a couple, but even the ones I disagree with have something to offer, a diferent view if I look at it with an open mind will enrich my own life as well as my dogs. There are a few however that will never get anything out of an oposing view, and for them I feel sorry for both their dogs as well as themselves.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> 
> What is irritating reading through this stuff is that people who like e-collars have a right to ATTACK people who do not like them and think they are not necessary. They say things like you have only easy dogs, and I would say what I think but do not want to be banned.


Don't make me go through all the posts and quote the attacks we have gotten from you trainers.I don't feel we are attacking we are open minded and think it is great if you have accomplished many dogs with out the collar.What we doing is giving info to the ones that think it is an acceptable training tool.You people are totally disregarding it as acceptable.Not a single one of us are saying that positive reinforcement is cruel or torture.I am not going to go into a gun fight with a knife or water gun..
I believe there are some dogs that are so nervous or into things that they need the correction of a prong or e collar.I have a dog like that.She is so nervous around dogs and certain things that she goes out of her mind in fear and the snap or zap brings her back to me and redirects her.I tried for over 12 months of just a flat or prong collar and until I used them no voice or treat in the world would work to get her comfortable around other dogs or distractions.I know what your going to say, a nervous dog shouldn't have either on them.Guess what,it works for her.In no certain terms could I have done meet ups or petstore visits with out the training and use of the collars.Had I not had them for training she would just go ballistic at the sight of a dog,once I used the collars correctly she realized I mean business.Most times now all I need to do is tell her no and to not even start and she calms down but until the day I can just walk past a dog with out any reaction I am using the e collar or prong.

Let me give you an idea of todays shopping trip.We meet up with a dog in an aisle,that dog is on a flat collar mine on her prong.Mine starts to bark,I give a no with a quick correction,she stops.The other person saying oh so sweetly,oh we're not at home blah,blah, blah,as her dog was choking itself trying to get to my dog to do what ever,and it was dragging the owner down. So who's training and collar worked better? Mine because for once I didn't look like the fool in a store with my dog...
So you take your Purely Positive training and show some other people how to use it and I along with Lou and the others will take our prongs and e collars and show the other side how to use them..

Oh and Have A Merry Christmas if I don't talk again before Christmas,some nice days are coming up so I'll be getting Lexi and Athena out for some freedom in the fields.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What is troublesome to me about untrainable dogs is that it usually is not a collar, any collar that is needed. It is usually a change in leadership style. 

You can muzzle a biting dog, but that does not train the biting dog to not bite. It simply prevents the dog from biting. It may be necessary, but the dog should be PTS if the owner is not going to learn how to lead and work with the dog. Wearing a muzzle on the dog for the rest of its life is not the answer. 

Most of what I am hearing from people with e-collars is more the need for a change in leadership style than a training collar. Sorry. 

I do not worry about having to PTS my critters because the respect me with or with out a collar on. But I hear people on here saying dogs run full speed and hit the end of their collar, dogs completely ignor training methods. This is a lack of leadership. 

If the e-collar was just to fine tune training, well I still wouldn't like it. Yep, I am closed minded about it.


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