# Which working line (Czech vs DDR)



## Anov (11 mo ago)

Hi everyone, 

My wife and I are considering adding a German Shepherd to our family. I am wondering which working line would be best suited for us. Growing up I did raise/train a Himalayan mastiff who was my companion as well as the outdoor family guard dog while my wife had a German Shepherd along with some other small dogs. We do have two cats right now. Due to life circumstances it has been 15 years or so since either of us had a dog. We wanted to wait until we could afford a yard space of 1-2 acres before getting a dog.

Anyway, the dog will be an active family companion and will also serve as a family watch dog. Also planning on doing some obedience training with the dog. I like intense alert dogs that bond strongly to their owners, play hard but also enjoy relaxing in the house. And I don't prefer my dog to be overly friendly to strangers. But a stable temperament with high threshold before turning on aggressive/protection mode is what I really want. Certainly don't want a dog with weak nerves that gets spooked easily and growls at every non threatening thing. Time and commitment to training will not be an issue as I work from home. Some stubborn streak is okay as well. I did enjoy the challenge of training my Himalayan mastiff and I am looking forward to getting back to it again. 

Oh I admit, I love the looks of very dark colored DDR dogs over the other lines, with the Czech line being a close second. 

So in order to identify what could suit my needs, I have been doing some reading about temperament of different lines and it seems like the DDR or Czech working lines could work for me. But I am a little confused about the prey drive. Does a dog with high prey drive have a higher likelihood of viewing smaller animals as toys and chasing them? As far as I understand I believe the Czech lines have higher prey drive. My primary concern about prey drive is regarding the cats. Obviously, the dog will get trained to leave the cats alone, but I still wanted to ask if any of these two lines better with cats than the others? I know there are wide variations within the lines. If you know of a specific breeding line (as in from a breeder or specific dog) that does better with cats please share. I am planning to emailing some breeders soon to discuss about what I want (and see their dogs if possible) but wanted to hear what you guys have to say before I reach out to them. 

Looking forward to hearing your opinions.

Thank you, 
Anov


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I have one of each.

Now, keep in mind that certain things need to be considered, such as lines, good breeding, individual dog, etc.

But if I were to give you a short answer, I would tell you that I would not like to have another Czech line as a pet.
Too much suspicion, too much sharpness.
My DDR dog checks to see if there is a threat, then decides whether to bark or not. The Czech line barks first, no matter what. Even barks at my kids, when they come home, until he sees that it is them.

I can’t take him to an outdoor restaurant, he barks every time a waiter approaches.

No such problems with my DDR.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> But a stable temperament with high threshold before turning on aggressive/protection mode is what I really want.


 Neither would be a match for you. Please do a search on the DDR and Czech requests and the many, many time people have repeated what these lines were bred for and what they bring in a dog.

My advice is to not get dogs that were bred to have higher aggression and a lower threshold and look at breeders for the temperament you just described you want instead of focusing on the color. I have a gorgeous dark sable that is most West German. Instead of contacting breeders, go visit working dog clubs and learn more about the breed. You'll find what you like by watching the dogs. And I'm willing to bet it will not be a DDR or Czech dog.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Sunflowers said:


> I have one of each.
> 
> Now, keep in mind that certain things need to be considered, such as lines, good breeding, individual dog, etc.
> 
> ...


That's really interesting, Oskar is 3/4 Czech, and he behaves exactly how you describe Czech dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Honey Maid said:


> That's really interesting, Oskar is 3/4 Czech, and he behaves exactly how you describe Czech dogs.


Yes. They were initially bred as border patrol dogs, to keep people from running OUT of Czechoslovakia. If someone tried to defect, they would jump and take them down. 
They’re jumpers. Hans was a nightmare with the jumping when he was young. 
The ball drive is out of this world. Hans would do anything for his ball, would play ball until he collapses.
Rolf, not so much. He also gets distracted easily, not nearly as much drive. He’s always happy.
Hans is always serious.
This is also due to breeding, however. Rolf’s breeder sells a lot of dogs to pet families, and breeds with that in mind.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's a running joke at our club

"Get a Czech dog they said, It'll be fun" As we watch our super hard dogs suddenly correct themselves when they can't cap and concentrate. I have one helper that refuses to even touch her leash to correct her for getting dirty, or pick up the sleeve off the ground, because he thinks she'll bite him. 

I do like a nice WG/Czech cross if well bred for stability. The DDR dogs I know are no joke. It took a lot for the owners to get them to maturity to make dogs that are safe and solid in public.


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Neither would be a match for you. Please do a search on the DDR and Czech requests and the many, many time people have repeated what these lines were bred for and what they bring in a dog.
> 
> My advice is to not get dogs that were bred to have higher aggression and a lower threshold and look at breeders for the temperament you just described you want instead of focusing on the color. I have a gorgeous dark sable that is most West German. Instead of contacting breeders, go visit working dog clubs and learn more about the breed. You'll find what you like by watching the dogs. And I'm willing to bet it will not be a DDR or Czech dog.


I see your point and appreciate your suggestion. I am not hung up on looks, but just like the looks of dark dogs. Just out of curiosity, what do people who own DDR OR Czech lines now a days use them for? Surely only a handful of owners use them for protection training sports and such. I don't quite understand working dog clubs. What do they do? Aren't the working dogs supposed to be working? When I had my Himalayan mastiff he was what you would call a working dog. And his job was to be alert to any strangers who might come to the property through the gate, and also be extremely territorial where the chickens and geese hang out in the backyard.



Sunflowers said:


> Yes. They were initially bred as border patrol dogs, to keep people from running OUT of Czechoslovakia. If someone tried to defect, they would jump and take them down.


I have read the same about DDR dogs as well. But my guess is only a minority of these dogs were used for guarding the borders? Surely most of the modern day DDR or Czech dogs are descendants of non military dogs.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t think either of those lines fits what you want in a general sense. Especially not Czech dogs. They pretty much supply all those things you didn’t want. I would look at dogs on an individual basis instead of at lines.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well - where do you think dogs that work come from? They come from our working lines. Working Dog Clubs are sport clubs where dog are trained in IGP. They are trained and titled to prove they are breed worthy. Those dogs are bred and that's where your K9's, SAR, guide dogs, etc come from.

Oh lots of people have Czech and DDR. We see them on here all the time with issues because they don't know how to handle them. Experienced people rarely have issues handling these dogs. 

Look on the USCA site and find clubs and trials near you. Truly - go watch. go hang out and talk to people. You will find your breeder and get a better understanding of our breed. I promise you will not feel like you wasted your time.

ETA: the sport clubs could be PSA or American Schutzhund as well.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anov said:


> But my guess is only a minority of these dogs were used for guarding the borders? Surely most of the modern day DDR or Czech dogs are descendants of non military dogs.


The internet can tell you a lot about the history of these dogs.





Z Pohranicni straze | History of Teufel Hunden German Shepherds


The Kennel Z Pohranicni straze (Z PS) was founded in 1955 for production and training of the dogs. Obtaining a Pohranicni Straze German Sheph




thgermanshepherds.com





Czech dogs are descended from DDR dogs. The Czechs bred them to suit their needs: border, police, military.

Modern lines are much less aggressive, but still difficult for the average pet owner.


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## Ringhram (Sep 4, 2021)

I am not qualified to give an opinion; however, I can tell you what happened to a litter that is 50% CzechWL and 50% American show line. The litter is now nine and a half months old. 

All puppies went to amazing homes. I was the only inexperienced one of the bunch. Nonetheless, out of 6 puppies, at least three have demonstrated inappropriate aggression, anxiety, and biting tendencies. One of those three has been missing for months (slipped her collar and ran out of fear of a couple of barking dogs) and is presumed deceased. Two of the pups have fared well and are not in the least aggressive or difficult to handle. I have no information on the last puppy. 

My puppy is a wonderful pet. She is appropriately aloof if a stranger enters the premises but is also quite friendly if she knows all is well. The only things she bites are her dog toys. She has never displayed aggression and is confident. She is going through a "teenage" phase right now, but typically is obedient to a fault. I believe Thena won the genetic lottery, as she demonstrates the best of both the American show line and the Czech working line. WE ARE NOT SKILLED DOG HANDLERS--INSTEAD, WE WERE INCREDIBLY LUCKY!!

This information is nothing but anecdotal evidence, but it supports everything that is being said. Others have mentioned visiting GSD clubs and getting to know the dogs prior to choosing a working line. I believe this is wise advice. I have read about amazing working dogs on this forum, but I have also read about the effort and skill needed to produce these wonderful animals. Please spend some time reading the posts here. The collective wisdom is incredible. 

Please keep us posted on your experiences in your search for the right puppy. I wish you the very best!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I had both, love both, very good dogs.

My current mostly Czech dog is high in prey drive, resilient hard dog, independent, highly territorial, ppl and dog neutral, doesn’t bark a lot, pretty social, very athletic, runner, jumper, swimmer, sniffer, player, loves to train anything and be good in it, great off switch, crates well, goofy, everyone wants to be his friend. He’s a very happy dog, the kind that will make a busy adult play with him in the rain like a kid and laugh and forget the troubles of life.

My DDR was my soulmate, my rock. A very serious dog, independent, intelligent, aloof, capable of making his own judgments and decisions, natural tracker, versatile, fearless and adventurous, admired by those who met him. He loved life and loved his family, he was by my side for 12 years, and I miss him every day. For me he was very easy to handle.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My husband and I have had GSDs together since 1986 (he grew up with them, I was a cat person, lol). The most recent two were/are working line - both West German, so that's my only experience. I raced Halo in flyball for 5 years before retiring her due to DM. We lost her in June 2018 at just 9-1/2 years old. She had plenty of drive and work ethic and was a fantastic, bomb proof sport dog. She also had a great off switch and was easy around the house. High thresholds, solid nerves, brimming with confidence, everywhere she went it was like she owned the joint. She could be snarky if other dogs got in her face when on leash, but off leash around other dogs she was pretty neutral. She was social with people, not really aloof. I had two Maine **** cats when we got her, and while she would chase them if they ran, they peacefully coexisted and were basically friendly. A lot of that had to do with my cats having been raised with previous dogs, so if your cats haven't been around dogs before it may be more difficult to integrate. Certainly not impossible though, just a bit more work.

Cava is our current WGWL girl and she's practically perfect. She is extremely social though, with people and dogs, even more than Halo was but probably more so than what you're looking for. We love it though, she's got all the drive I could ever want (she's my new flyball racer) and is all in no matter what I want from her, and yet she's a "take anywhere" kind of dog. She is extremely athletic and was very coordinated even from a young age. I never have to worry about her, whether it's a music festival, a winery or brewery, or lunching outdoors, which we do most weekends when the weather permits. She's stable and confident, with even higher thresholds than Halo had. I have no idea how typical/atypical she is but I had a pretty lengthy list of "must have" and "absolutely don't want" and she checked off every single box. She was sight unseen, the breeder is about 1200 miles away and I never met her or the dam of the litter, but we had lots of discussions over a period of weeks before making the decision and she and I felt like Cava would be a match. She is. Both my kitties are long gone but I think Cava would be fine with cats. She'll see them out front or in the backyard or walking along the fence and she just looks at them with calm interest.

I totally agree with the advice to get out and meet dogs and talk to breeders. The better you can articulate what you are looking for and what your plans are for the dog, the greater your chances of a successful match. Watching dogs work should help narrow down your criteria. And we don't all want the same things - I see posts here all the time where people describe their dogs and how great they are and it's totally not what I'd want. I'm sure plenty of people feel the same about my dog. That's okay, there's enough diversity in the breed that we can all be happy even if we want completely different things.


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## Ringhram (Sep 4, 2021)

Addendum to my post above: 

The 50% CWL and 50% ASL litter I described was NOT a result of careful genetic studies by a knowledgeable breeder. Instead, the litter was from a couple of family pets. 

@Cassidy's Mom, you made a great point about people wanting different things in their dog. This further underlines the importance of learning about the likely genetic predispositions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ringhram said:


> . This further underlines the importance of learning about the likely genetic predispositions.


I have to say...I'm exhausted by the number of people who come here wanting The New Orange in DDR and Czech dogs but don't know what they are asking for. Are there great DDR and Czech dogs out there? Of course! I love some of the kennels from there like Eqidius. But you are increasing your chances of low threshold, nerve and aggression in the Czech dogs. I've never had a DDR dog. I know the ones my friends have are serious dogs. 

My girl took 3 years to mature into her suspicion. Liike...holy crap. I still don't trust her not to bite someone. She's not nervy but she leaks drive but still will not make a sound when she strikes if you break her rules. I think she's awesome. I respect what she is. All the working people love her because she's a hard hitting female. But average pet? No way No how. It took what seems like forever to build a relationship with her. I never had to work at that with Seger. And she's only about 30% Czech! The traits you see in those lines just came down to her!

I just wish people that wanted working lines would actually go watch and meet the dogs instead of just blindly contacting breeders based on google. I bet 90% of them would change their minds. I can tell you that what I like in a dog is not going to be what someone else likes in the dog.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I will go against the current here… The OP is doing his reasearch on the lines, let’s share our own experiences without preaching and discouraging. He wants a good dog and either line can deliver an outstanding companion for his family. I trust the OP to make his own decision because he’s here before getting a dog, asking questions, and his first post is not “meet my new Czech dog, he bites”…


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Get a Czech dog they said, It'll be fun" As we watch our super hard dogs suddenly correct themselves when they can't cap and concentrate.
> 
> I do like a nice WG/Czech cross if well bred for stability. The DDR dogs I know are no joke. It took a lot for the owners to get them to maturity to make dogs that are safe and solid in public.


What exactly do you mean by cap and concentrate? Sorry, just trying to understand it.

Secondly, what made DDR dogs unsafe? Low threshold and weak nerves or high drive?



Jax08 said:


> Well - where do you think dogs that work come from? They come from our working lines. Working Dog Clubs are sport clubs where dog are trained in IGP. They are trained and titled to prove they are breed worthy. Those dogs are bred and that's where your K9's, SAR, guide dogs, etc come from.
> 
> Oh lots of people have Czech and DDR. We see them on here all the time with issues because they don't know how to handle them. Experienced people rarely have issues handling these dogs.
> 
> ...


I am going to take your advice and contact some local clubs here. I do see your point in getting to learn more about the dogs. I can see folks who are not strict with rules and don't take training seriously having issue with strong driven dogs.

When one says working home I envision a farm setting with livestock where dogs do herding and guarding duties in case of GSD. I am sure lots of dogs are used by police military etc, but I want an all rounder serious intense dog with high threshold. I wonder how much harder/softer working line GSDs are compared to LGDs like Pyrenees or Tibeban/Himalayan mastiff. My Himalayan was very territorial in the backyard, but never caused issue with people we let in the front yard. But I did see him maul some animals that were trying to get our ducks to death in the backyard. But he had very high threshold. That's kind of my benchmark when it comes to comparing dogs temperament as I don't have experience with many different types of dogs.



Sunflowers said:


> The internet can tell you a lot about the history of these dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you say aggression, do you mean low threshold or high drive or relentlessness? Trying to understand the terminology in the context of dogs here.



Ringhram said:


> My puppy is a wonderful pet. She is appropriately aloof if a stranger enters the premises but is also quite friendly if she knows all is well. The only things she bites are her dog toys. She has never displayed aggression and is confident. She is going through a "teenage" phase right now, but typically is obedient to a fault. I believe Thena won the genetic lottery, as she demonstrates the best of both the American show line and the Czech working line. WE ARE NOT SKILLED DOG HANDLERS--INSTEAD, WE WERE INCREDIBLY LUCKY!!


Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like most of the dogs from that litter ended up with worst traits of both lines.



GSD07 said:


> I had both, love both, very good dogs.
> 
> My current mostly Czech dog is high in prey drive, resilient hard dog, independent, highly territorial, ppl and dog neutral, doesn’t bark a lot, pretty social, very athletic, runner, jumper, swimmer, sniffer, player, loves to train anything and be good in it, great off switch, crates well, goofy, everyone wants to be his friend. He’s a very happy dog, the kind that will make a busy adult play with him in the rain like a kid and laugh and forget the troubles of life.
> 
> My DDR was my soulmate, my rock. A very serious dog, independent, intelligent, aloof, capable of making his own judgments and decisions, natural tracker, versatile, fearless and adventurous, admired by those who met him. He loved life and loved his family, he was by my side for 12 years, and I miss him every day. For me he was very easy to handle.


Both your dogs sound amazing. Wish I can get a dog like yours. Which one was easier to train?



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I totally agree with the advice to get out and meet dogs and talk to breeders. The better you can articulate what you are looking for and what your plans are for the dog, the greater your chances of a successful match. Watching dogs work should help narrow down your criteria. And we don't all want the same things - I see posts here all the time where people describe their dogs and how great they are and it's totally not what I'd want. I'm sure plenty of people feel the same about my dog. That's okay, there's enough diversity in the breed that we can all be happy even if we want completely different things.


So it sounds like WGWL could be a good consideration for my needs as well? I am going to contact some clubs. Surely I can find a working line dog that will have the temperament I seek. I might even get some more acres and create a small orchard in the backyard. Basically a free range small orchard dog with access to both indoor and outdoors during day and indoor companion during evening and nights is what we ideally want.



Jax08 said:


> My girl took 3 years to mature into her suspicion. Liike...holy crap. I still don't trust her not to bite someone. She's not nervy but she leaks drive but still will not make a sound when she strikes if you break her rules. I think she's awesome. I respect what she is. All the working people love her because she's a hard hitting female. But average pet? No way No how. It took what seems like forever to build a relationship with her. I never had to work at that with Seger. And she's only about 30% Czech! The traits you see in those lines just came down to her!
> 
> I just wish people that wanted working lines would actually go watch and meet the dogs instead of just blindly contacting breeders based on google. I bet 90% of them would change their minds. I can tell you that what I like in a dog is not going to be what someone else likes in the dog.


What is Equidius? A kennel? 
Do you think your dog is way too intense because of the Czech line DNA? My question is, is it possible to find a dog with the traits I seek on any of the working lines of GSDs? 

And correct me if I misunderstood, how does the dog gets to lay down the rules on your house?



GSD07 said:


> I will go against the current here… The OP is doing his reasearch on the lines, let’s share our own experiences without preaching and discouraging. He wants a good dog and either line can deliver an outstanding companion for his family. I trust the OP to make his own decision because he’s here before getting a dog, asking questions, and his first post is not “meet my new Czech dog, he bites”…


Thank you..yes, just trying to do the research. I would rather not get a dog if it is not a good match than suffer for the next 12 years as giving up on a family member is not an option. But I guess some people are upset as they have seen way too many cases of people getting high strung dogs without any sort of research or preparation. Can't blame them.


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## Ringhram (Sep 4, 2021)

Anov said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like most of the dogs from that litter ended up with worst traits of both lines.


I am not sure that I would say "worst traits of both lines," but they certainly inherited the intensity of the working line coupled with a bit of anxiety. Had I realized the genetic tendencies of the CWL, I (as an inexperienced dog owner) would have been much more cautious about adopting a puppy that was 50% CWL. Fortunately, we were lucky. 

Nothing is a guarantee with genetics, but you will enhance the odds of acquiring a good fit by doing exactly what you are doing. In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, you are approaching this the right way. Please let us know your thoughts as you see the dogs in action at the local clubs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anov said:


> What is Equidius? A kennel?
> Do you think your dog is way too intense because of the Czech line DNA? My question is, is it possible to find a dog with the traits I seek on any of the working lines of GSDs?
> 
> And correct me if I misunderstood, how does the dog gets to lay down the rules on your house?



First - no dogs lay down the rules in my house. LOL I"m not sure where that came from. We have a very respectful relationship. I don't believe in all that alpha crap but I do expect them to not be annoying monsters.

Eqiduis is a Czech kennel. I love their dogs. Those lines really seem to bring great nerve and stability into the breedings. The aggression my dog has come from both sides. WG and Czech. I can point out dogs in her pedigree that bring it down. The Czech brings in the nerve where she has issues capping her drives. In fact, I would like to breed her to a dog with heavy Eqiduis lines that is a Czech/WG cross. I feel this will even out her nerve in the next generation while maintaining her great level of aggression and fight.

I have a deadline at noon today and then have to go pick up a new car. I would be happy to answer any questions you have if you PM me. If you are in the Northeast/New England area I can help guide you to good clubs to watch dogs. 

Yes! You can absolutely find a WL with the traits you want!! Absolutely! Just don't get stuck on Czech/DDR!



> I wonder how much harder/softer working line GSDs are compared to LGDs like Pyrenees or Tibeban/Himalayan mastiff.


totally different breeds bred to do totally different things. You can not compare them at all. it's not about harder/softer. It's different genetic instincts completely.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I will just point out that leavnig a German Shepherd to have free access outside is probably not a good idea. They tend to entertain themselves. if mine are outside by themselves, they just sit in front of the door waiting for me to come out with them.


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> First - no dogs lay down the rules in my house. LOL I"m not sure where that came from. We have a very respectful relationship. I don't believe in all that alpha crap but I do expect them to not be annoying monsters.
> 
> Eqiduis is a Czech kennel. I love their dogs. Those lines really seem to bring great nerve and stability into the breedings. The aggression my dog has come from both sides. WG and Czech. I can point out dogs in her pedigree that bring it down. The Czech brings in the nerve where she has issues capping her drives. In fact, I would like to breed her to a dog with heavy Eqiduis lines that is a Czech/WG cross. I feel this will even out her nerve in the next generation while maintaining her great level of aggression and fight.
> 
> ...


Let me first say I really appreciate your posts. I must have misunderstood when you wrote that she strikes if you break her rules. Will PM you. I have much to learn. I won' be committing to getting a dog before at least another six months. Hopefully that is enough time. 



Jax08 said:


> I will just point out that leavnig a German Shepherd to have free access outside is probably not a good idea. They tend to entertain themselves. if mine are outside by themselves, they just sit in front of the door waiting for me to come out with them.


By entertain do you mean digging and whining for their humans to come out?


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

@Jax08 I can't PM you as I can't view your profile. My guess is because I am new to this forum. Would you mind sending me a PM when you get a chance so that I can communicate with you?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ringhram said:


> Addendum to my post above:
> 
> The 50% CWL and 50% ASL litter I described was NOT a result of careful genetic studies by a knowledgeable breeder. Instead, the litter was from a couple of family pets.
> 
> @Cassidy's Mom, you made a great point about people wanting different things in their dog. This further underlines the importance of learning about the likely genetic predispositions.


Star was a mix of ASL and German SL. The problem with the ASL dogs is exactly what you saw, Ringhram, they don't have strong nerves. Star would do bitework, but knowledgeable people could see that her heart wasn't really in it, and it would have been easy for the decoy to chase her off, or for her to go into defense. 

Crossing working lines with ASL is even worse. You now have a dog that genetically is bred to bite mixed with poor nerves. You are EXTREMELY likely to get a fear biter as a result.

Fortunately for me, Star had strong enough nerves not to be a fear biter, and she was an excellent protector of my home. She barked at EVERYONE, even people she knew, when they came into my home. When I was out, she would be on watch, sleeping just inside the door of the house.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Any GSD that I've had that has spent time outdoors alone has barked, dug (including digging under the fence). I also had one scale the fence while I went inside to change clothes. GSDs are not estate guardians or LGDs .. they are meant to be WITH their people and work with them. Not alone. Get a different breed for that.


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## Ringhram (Sep 4, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> You now have a dog that genetically is bred to bite mixed with poor nerves. You are EXTREMELY likely to get a fear biter as a result.


In this case, at least 50% of litter consists of fear biters. To keep this on point for the OP, had I visited clubs and known about the "bred to bite" tendencies of CWL, I would not have thoughtlessly adopted a puppy with this mix of lines. 

I should take my lucky lottery winner puppy and have her pick out a Powerball ticket.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fama was a Czech dog. She sent a few handlers to the hospital, and several bad guys. She was a sharp, super strong female with tons of fight and attitude. Lots of drive in detection and protection. 

After 5 months together, she was a very different dog when not working. She was fantastic around people and other dogs. I was an experienced trainer, surrounded by 5 professional working dog trainers, and she was basically my only responsibility. It was still a challenge for me. 

My current dog Valor is DDR/Czech. He has the same tenacity and drive as Fama but he has much higher thresholds. He's a much more neutral dog, but very intense. Without firm guidance and strong leadership, he would be a wild child. 

I wouldn't recommend either dog to a novice handler/owner. The learning curve is step with strong dogs. You can get hurt.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Star bit our trainer several times when he gave her what she felt was an unfair correction with the prong collar. She never bit me, except for puppy nipping.


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

Sunsilver said:


> Star bit our trainer several times when he gave her what she felt was an unfair correction with the prong collar. She never bit me, except for puppy nipping.


Isn't biting a handler like a really big deal in dog sports?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Handler aggression in very prominent in some lines.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Anov said:


> Isn't biting a handler like a really big deal in dog sports?


The bites drew blood, but were not serious. And...I have to say this...I think he **** well deserved them!  
She was not a handler aggressive dog, and many dogs will bite if they feel a correction is unfair/too hard.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I've noticed over the years that certain trainers are much more prone to that than others...coincidence? NOT!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, the 'yank and crank' ones especially!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

This reminded me a story about Gero z Blatenskeho zamku (Czech dog) who didn’t listen to a new trainer commands, just stood there and the trainer kept cranking up the ecollar until Gero just jumped up and bit the trainers arm and broke the bone. It was the end of the training session.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Anov said:


> Both your dogs sound amazing. Wish I can get a dog like yours. Which one was easier to train?


 Thank you! I think the Czech dog is much easier to train in general because he loves it, gets it quickly and is very forgiving to trainers mistakes. All modern methods of training based on food, markers, balls, toys work, all advice from trainers applies. Hard part is just keeping up with his speed and desire to work/train. 

My DDR dog was not food, toy, ball oriented and did not forgive mistakes or unfair handling, he hated repetition and obedience exercises were extremely boring to him. It was hard to find a local trainer that could actually help. He was a dog that demanded respect, he would work with you, side by side, but not _for _you. No one could force him to do anything, he had to want to do it. We had a very strong connection and handling him was extremely easy and natural for me.


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

Sunsilver said:


> Yeah, the 'yank and crank' ones especially!


Umm what is yank and crank? Yank I understand. With a prong collar surely it will hurt the dog. 



GSD07 said:


> My DDR dog was not food, toy, ball oriented and did not forgive mistakes or unfair handling, he hated repetition and obedience exercises were extremely boring to him. It was hard to find a local trainer that could actually help. He was a dog that demanded respect, he would work with you, side by side, but not _for _you. No one could force him to do anything, he had to want to do it. We had a very strong connection and handling him was extremely easy and natural for me.


As I read more I am trying to understand what folks mean by forgive mistake or unfair handling. I have seen this phrase used pretty often. Can you elaborate what it means? 
I wonder how you built a solid connection with a dog who is not food/toy/ball motivated.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use a prong collar. Yank and Crank could be any collar that is being used to crank on the dog as a "correction". Prong, choke, flat - doesn't matter. It's an old school kind of training.

Unfair handling is when you are issuing corrections for something to dog was never taught or does not fully understand. That's YOUR fault. It is your responsiblity to teach the dog what you want in a fair manner. After the dog fully understands the command, then you proof it. You could have a correction in that phase of trainign that would be fair because the dog chose to not do it.

My training is 95% positive and motivational. If you do it right - you have very few corrections because the dog understands what you want.

If a working line dog has no food/toy/ball motivation - there is a problem and it's in the breeding. If you do your due diligence in choosing a breeder, it won't be a problem.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, what Jax said. The 'crank' part means hauling the dog around a turn, when it won't follow you willingly.

I have nothing against hard corrections, when warranted, but this trainer was definitely too heavy-handed, and that's what Star was objecting to.

Forgiving mistakes/unfair handling is when you correct at the wrong time or do a correction that is too harsh (c'mon, guys we've ALL lost our tempers now and then...) A dog with strong nerves will bounce back from something like that and 'forgive' you. A weak nerved dog will cringe and shut down and not want to continue with the training session.

Editing to add - a hard dog, like the DDR dog GSD07 is talking about will definitely NOT shut down with a harsh or unfair correction. They may bite instead or just ignore you. You have to make them want to co-operate by earning their respect.

Gero z Blatenskeho zamku - GSD07, Eska has that dog in her pedigree several generations back!! 😮 Thank heavens she didn't inherit his handler aggression!


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Anov said:


> When one says working home I envision a farm setting with livestock where dogs do herding and guarding duties in case of GSD. I am sure lots of dogs are used by police military etc, but I want an all rounder serious intense dog with high threshold. I wonder how much harder/softer working line GSDs are compared to LGDs like Pyrenees or Tibeban/Himalayan mastiff. My Himalayan was very territorial in the backyard, but never caused issue with people we let in the front yard. But I did see him maul some animals that were trying to get our ducks to death in the backyard. But he had very high threshold. That's kind of my benchmark when it comes to comparing dogs temperament as I don't have experience with many different types of dogs.


Was your tibetan mastiff a handful or was he super easy? It would be impossible to compare the tibetan mastiff to a GSD. Not only are they serving different purposes but there is too much variation within the breed. A family friend of ours breed Tibetan mastiffs. Those dogs are no joke and they have no issue killing a human being if the humans are trying to infiltrate the property. These dogs were also very well trained. There's only a few in their breeding program that can't be controlled when they're in the middle of mauling whatever broke in to the property, they use something like a cattle prod. Luckily it doesnt happen often. Obviously, when they see the aftermath of an attack, no one wants a dog like this. But yet there is a huge market for them because of people's lack of experience and knowledge. 

It's pretty much what everyone else is trying to tell you about these dogs. There's what you think you want and how it'll play out vs how it will actually play out. Most of the customers want a "very protective dog that protects the family at all costs". 3 years later: "I can't make them stop, I had to put them in a kennel". 

So yeah just be really careful about what you're asking for. Having more experience will help you get onto the same page as others imo. I already have a dog but I'll be going out to visit a few clubs fairly soon to fully understand. It's important to not romanticize things like czech/ddr dogs or anything in general. Things can look really ugly when you take off the rose tinted glasses.


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## Anov (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Unfair handling is when you are issuing corrections for something to dog was never taught or does not fully understand. That's YOUR fault. It is your responsiblity to teach the dog what you want in a fair manner. After the dog fully understands the command, then you proof it. You could have a correction in that phase of trainign that would be fair because the dog chose to not do it.
> 
> My training is 95% positive and motivational. If you do it right - you have very few corrections because the dog understands what you want.
> 
> If a working line dog has no food/toy/ball motivation - there is a problem and it's in the breeding. If you do your due diligence in choosing a breeder, it won't be a problem.


This makes sense, thanks for explaining. You have been a great help in my quest to improve my understanding!



Sunsilver said:


> Forgiving mistakes/unfair handling is when you correct at the wrong time or do a correction that is too harsh (c'mon, guys we've ALL lost our tempers now and then...) A dog with strong nerves will bounce back from something like that and 'forgive' you.


When you talk about correction, is it a gentle yank at the collar or it can be a other verbal cues like a loud NO, or withholding the treat and making the dog repeat the task (especially when training as a puppy)? I seriously need to read more on training techniques of dogs to understand more of this stuff. 



Hopps said:


> Was your tibetan mastiff a handful or was he super easy? It would be impossible to compare the tibetan mastiff to a GSD. Not only are they serving different purposes but there is too much variation within the breed. A family friend of ours breed Tibetan mastiffs. Those dogs are no joke and they have no issue killing a human being if the humans are trying to infiltrate the property. These dogs were also very well trained. There's only a few in their breeding program that can't be controlled when they're in the middle of mauling whatever broke in to the property, they use something like a cattle prod. Luckily it doesnt happen often. Obviously, when they see the aftermath of an attack, no one wants a dog like this. But yet there is a huge market for them because of people's lack of experience and knowledge.
> 
> It's pretty much what everyone else is trying to tell you about these dogs. There's what you think you want and how it'll play out vs how it will actually play out. Most of the customers want a "very protective dog that protects the family at all costs". 3 years later: "I can't make them stop, I had to put them in a kennel".
> 
> So yeah just be really careful about what you're asking for. Having more experience will help you get onto the same page as others imo. I already have a dog but I'll be going out to visit a few clubs fairly soon to fully understand. It's important to not romanticize things like czech/ddr dogs or anything in general. Things can look really ugly when you take off the rose tinted glasses.


My Tibetan mastiff wasn't a purebred. Where I grew up, dogs were strictly outdoor animals and their only purpose was to be watch dogs. The more aggressive the better, that was the prevailing idea. People did not train these dogs like they do here using tried and tested techniques. The dogs bonded to the households because they got food. Most people don't even play with the dogs. And most dogs were often left to their own devices. The dogs used to go to the grain fields and play with other dogs from the neighborhood. People did not s[ay/neuter dogs, and they got nearly zero vet care. It was a really shitty situation, and place for the animals for the most part. 

When I had got the puppy from where he was abandoned, He was headstrong and DID NOT like training. I was able to get him to come, sit, stay and chase after like 3 months. But that was it. It was a challenge and I loved it. I used to go to the forest and used the dog to flush out game birds that I hunted down with a slingshot as they took off.

After the dog was gone, I knew that some day I wanted a dog that will be much more trainable and will bond very strongly with a owner. Don't get me wrong, I love the laidback nature of GSDs. Some day I would also get a Pyrenees when I have neighbors gar away from me. But at this stage in my life I would like a trainable dog. Purebred Tibetans are not for me, Pyrenees are much more mellow with visitors. Well bred Tibetans that have the real temperament of a Tibetan mastiff are extremely serious dogs and shouldn't be owned by 99% of people who currently own them. 

You are absolutely right. I will try my very best to not be unrealistic about my capabilities and will actually take the opinions of experts on this. And that is precisely why I am researching. This thread has been fantastic in explaining the ground truth. Jax08 has already given me some local leads to meet some people to find out what these dogs are actually like. And by Jove I am going to follow up on the advice I have got here. I have no need for an extreme military/police dog with high aggression. Maybe a medium drive WL dog will do. If I find from my research that even that will be too much, I will have to either consider another breed (hopefully not) or some non show GSD line with the temperament I seek. Last thing I want is to get a dog only to have to give it up because we can't handle it. And that will be heartbreaking for my family. We really really love our animals!


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Anov said:


> This makes sense, thanks for explaining. You have been a great help in my quest to improve my understanding!
> 
> 
> When you talk about correction, is it a gentle yank at the collar or it can be a other verbal cues like a loud NO, or withholding the treat and making the dog repeat the task (especially when training as a puppy)? I seriously need to read more on training techniques of dogs to understand more of this stuff.
> ...


dude that’s so awesome. People in this forum always come through with importantstuff, have fun meeting those dogs! I’ll be going out to a few clubs very soon. Good luck! Sounds like your dog was a good dog. No matter what the breed they always have a place in our hearts.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Anov said:


> When you talk about correction, is it a gentle yank at the collar or it can be a other verbal cues like a loud NO, or withholding the treat and making the dog repeat the task (especially when training as a puppy)? I seriously need to read more on training techniques of dogs to understand more of this stuff.


It can be any or all of these. First, I might try a verbal correction, such as 'no'. For fixation on a distraction, I'd likely combine a sharp 'no' with a collar correction, as I need to get the dog's focus back on me before things go any further.

For a dog that was asked to sit, and didn't do a proper sit (bottom not on the ground, or popped right back up immediately) I would, of course, have them repeat the task, and withhold the treat until I got what I wanted. I'd use the leash to cue the proper position, and hold the treat above their head to help with the sit, if they were just learning it.

Of course, if it was the very first time I'd asked the dog to sit, I would likely reward a less than perfect effort!

I save hard corrections for serious stuff. I had a dog aggressive dog with a couple of serious bites to her credit already. She lunged at another dog, and I corrected her with the prong so hard she yelped. Some people thought I'd been too harsh, but they weren't the ones that had to separate her from her previous two victims (she was like a bulldog - she wouldn't let go) or pay the resulting vet bills!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anov said:


> When you talk about correction, is it a gentle yank at the collar or it can be a other verbal cues like a loud NO, or withholding the treat and making the dog repeat the task (especially when training as a puppy)? I seriously need to read more on training techniques of dogs to understand more of this stuff.


yank and crank is old school compulsion training. It's the first method I used and it didn't take long for me to realize it's terrible.

Instead of teaching the dog and motivating them, they are expected to comply thru corrections. So - I say Sit. The dog looks at me because it's literally a foreign word. I then choke the dog into the sit position. I say Down. Again the dog just looks at me. I think pull the leash down, choking the dog. Nice, right? I believed in my trainer even when my child was telling how mean it was. It's all correction, no reward other than a release of pressure or a good dog. 

I had a conversation with this trainer after I expanded my knowledge. We were talking about not rewarding with food and how she wants her dogs "calm". I said "so you pop the drive right out of your dogs?" And she happily said "Yes!!!" as in she was happy I understood how to train a dog. LOL 

Motivational training - you are breaking the pieces of a command down. Luring (helping the dog with your body and with food to get the dog into position), Free shaping (waiting for the dog to make the right choice so you can reward) - it all teaches the dog to think and problem solve. When I teach down, I do it with a lure under their chest and they get rewarded for each small step they take to get to the posiiton. At first you'll see their hind drop a little. Click reward. This is sustainable training. You motivate the dog. You use that drive to get faster, better results without conflict. 

Here is a video from a friend training a young dog to be a K9. This dog was taught to search starting with an article on the floor, a clicker and food reward (luring and free shaping). Use the drives, build them, build the confidence and they will learn to problem solve




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=354689653331788


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## Cheese Dog (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> yank and crank is old school compulsion training. It's the first method I used and it didn't take long for me to realize it's terrible.
> 
> Instead of teaching the dog and motivating them, they are expected to comply thru corrections. So - I say Sit. The dog looks at me because it's literally a foreign word. I then choke the dog into the sit position. I say Down. Again the dog just looks at me. I think pull the leash down, choking the dog. Nice, right? I believed in my trainer even when my child was telling how mean it was. It's all correction, no reward other than a release of pressure or a good dog.


So, what is the difference between teaching a dog leash pressure on a prong collar while walking and using leash pressure to guide dog into down/sit position? Are they not both just negative reinforcement?

Can pet and praise, which is positive reinforcement, be just as effective or even more effective than food, as a reward, to some dogs?

From what I've seen, "yank and crank" literally means yank and crank. I don't think it means using negative reinforcement to guide a dog into sit or down positions. I also think negative reinforcement can be used without "choking" a dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

There is a BIG difference between leash pressure and 'yank and crank'! Leash pressure is showing the dog what you want it to do, while encouraging it, and (often) luring it with a treat. Maybe someone could post some of the videos of expert trainers using it? I really don't have the time to find them right now.


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## ohlongarm (10 mo ago)

Anov said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My wife and I are considering adding a German Shepherd to our family. I am wondering which working line would be best suited for us. Growing up I did raise/train a Himalayan mastiff who was my companion as well as the outdoor family guard dog while my wife had a German Shepherd along with some other small dogs. We do have two cats right now. Due to life circumstances it has been 15 years or so since either of us had a dog. We wanted to wait until we could afford a yard space of 1-2 acres before getting a dog.
> 
> ...


Czech lines have extremely high prey drive on par easily with malinois, however with the right training they'll be fine, mine lives with chickens, cats and turkeys and no problems. Training, is the key.


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