# Looking for Dark Sable/black Sable DDRorCZorWWL



## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

as the title says i am looking for a dark/black sable pups DDR Or Cz .. well Can be Any Working line .. west working line good also .. 

bicolor can be considered also ...

i am Located in Montreal ... looking for a breeder not to far from me .. i can do a few hours car ride .. but not too much since the pups need to come back in the car with me ..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know nothing about canada's geographical stuff, but Carmen (carmspack) on the board is in canada


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

What are you looking for in terms of drives, energy level, suspicious vs. friendly, etc.? Are you looking for a serious sport prospect, personal protection dog, or family pet? You can get a dark sable that will fulfill any of those, but we need to know more to know what breeders to recommend.


What happened to getting a pup from de Juco?


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> What happened to getting a pup from de Juco?


 
oh first male choice is already reserved and paid from them ( litter will be born near december )

i am just seeking for a Dark sable breeder cause i might by another one ...!!!

i might get dark sable from the litter im waiting for from de Juco tho , since mother are bicolor and father Sable with lot of dark in it ...:wild:


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

If you open to a pup being shipped you can certainly open up your options.

More importantly though,...what are your plans for said pup? That will direct you more as to who you can go with.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

im not ready to deal with ouo being shipped by plane ... i have to see it before buying it , ima bit scared lol ...

im not practicing any sport ... but have active life . but i would like to start doing some french ring soon


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

http://www.wendelinfarm.com/puppies.html

Anybody know them ? what u think about that breeder ?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Dexter said:


> im not ready to deal with ouo being shipped by plane ... i have to see it before buying it , ima bit scared lol ...
> 
> im not practicing any sport ... but have active life . but i would like to start doing some french ring soon


Ok so you may do french ring. If I am not mistaken (and someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong) but GSD's aren't that great at french ring. From what I see it is a sport really for Mali's. Then add in a czech gsd and it may be difficult. Like PSA's....GSD don't really get a PSA2 or PSA3. Really a Mal sport.

Thing is, you wanting a czech/ddr dog and then you want a dark sable and you don't want to import. You extremely narrow your search with that. Nothing wrong with wanting color *but* by doing so you HAVE to stick with breeders who know the lines and what not and just happen to have the color you want. Too many breeders breed on color and forget about everything else.

Looks like you want more of a companion than a sport or high drive working dog.

Make sure you call and talk to breeders. Getting opinions is great but first thing should be always to call and talk to them first so you go in not leaning for or against. Want to have a clean slate.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GSD can do very well in French Ring --- have done it , been with others that have done it and trained with French trainer whose own dogs , his competition dogs were GSD -- high scoring too , and then there were the "people" from Detroit and they had GSD . 

The problem with French Ring , is scarcity of clubs , and no opportunity to trial . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> Ok so you may do french ring. If I am not mistaken (and someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong) but GSD's aren't that great at french ring.


Yes, Mals are the most common, but I don't think that's accurate at all. No reason at all why they can't do it! Especially since it doesn't exactly sound like this person is looking to compete at Worlds.....

Actually a great video recently posted of a GSD in Quebec doing FR. Awesome dog. 

I go to FR club every week to train (still TBD if that is what the little one's fate will be), and I see absolutely no reason why GSD's can't do well. It's only lack of clubs, trials, and the fact that SchH is the GSD "thang" that keeps the numbers low IMO.



Dexter said:


> oh first male choice is already reserved and paid from them ( litter will be born near december )


SO??? What does "first pick" even mean? Breeders should be matching dogs to what the person wants. You want an "active companion" so I certainly hope the breeder isn't matching you with the absolutely highest drive monster in the bunch. There isn't one size fits all for all dog owners. I personally am put off by "first pick." Obviously if a breeder has 3 people all wanting SchH prospects and the same general traits I can understand it. But someone not even sure if they are going to be doing and sport with their dog worrying about getting first pick seems a bit absurd to me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Unless you are breeding with a gene pool totally and strictly limited to old DDR lines, the black sable is HARD to produce....there may be a few in a litter - but they are highly desired by so many. I have a black sable bitch - her litter from a black gave me two nice dark sable females and 4 blacks....neither of the sables were as dark as the mother. If that puppy who IS "black sable" looks to be a nice working prospect, I will not (nor will most responsible breeders) sell it to a pet home on the basis of it's color. LOL Actually, I would probably keep it or put it on a co-ownership for future breeding if it is a good working prospect. In a litter where I had 2 "black sables", those 2 had exceptionally strong characters, and were evaluated to be appropriate for police work - a third pup, a dark but not black sable, in that litter is a K9 for Vermont State Police. There seem to be some DDR line breeders who produce this color of pup, and sell mostly to pet homes, and few are ever worked or titled. They do not choose their pairings specifically for working ability.

Lee


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just make sure you watch this video and listen to it over and over and over


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks for clarifying the whole GSD/French Ring sibject. I was under the impression that while GSD's do compete they are always high scorers and overall top placing dogs int he competitions. That honor usually goes to the Mals.

Same with PSA which I love but when you check the trial books online, GSD's really don't place/pass once they get past the PSA1


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

If you want a Czech Black sable then check out Legendaryk9.com
Great czech lines and exactly what you want (dogs are without a doubt...absolutely beautiful) BUT you have to import.


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

there is a strictly DDR breeder in New Hampshire that we were going to get a pup from. 


goblekennels.com


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Smoktya said:


> there is a strictly DDR breeder in New Hampshire that we were going to get a pup from.
> 
> 
> goblekennels.com


Nice dogs, probably great family companions; not what I would chose for French Ring sport however.


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Nice dogs, probably great family companions; not what I would chose for French Ring sport however.


you don't think those dogs have it in them? They are all strictly DDR pedigree which in my eyes says a lot. Take a look at Wolfgang and some of the bitches. I don't care if they are titled or not, if you read the DDR history, just having the blood-line will give you what you want.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It's not an issue of titles or not. The traits common in the DDR lines and the typical DDR type of temperament are not conducive to most modern sport training. While these dogs can be very nice for a lot of things, sports that focus on tons of prey drive (and often very little else) are not suitable for DDR dogs. So I'd agree, not the best choice for FR competition, or most modern sport competition.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> It's not an issue of titles or not. The traits common in the DDR lines and the typical DDR type of temperament are not conducive to most modern sport training. While these dogs can be very nice for a lot of things, sports that focus on tons of prey drive (and often very little else) are not suitable for DDR dogs. So I'd agree, not the best choice for FR competition, or most modern sport competition.


What would you say the DDR dogs excel at, if not sport?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Chris Wild said:


> It's not an issue of titles or not. The traits common in the DDR lines and the typical DDR type of temperament are not conducive to most modern sport training. While these dogs can be very nice for a lot of things, sports that focus on tons of prey drive (and often very little else) are not suitable for DDR dogs. So I'd agree, not the best choice for FR competition, or most modern sport competition.


Exactly what I was going to say, but better than I could have said it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Freestep said:


> What would you say the DDR dogs excel at, if not sport?


Fitting their entire body into their water dish and then tracking it all over the house, apparently.  My (mostly) DDR boy has a great talent for that. Also climbing from the couch, to the back of the couch, across the bar stools, to the bar, to the counter, to the top of the fridge where the cookies are cooling.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Even if the dog is capable, you have to find a club capable of training the dog.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Smoktya said:


> there is a strictly DDR breeder in New Hampshire that we were going to get a pup from.
> 
> 
> goblekennels.com



This is a correct statement they do breed strictly 100% DDR dogs, however they are more for companion/family dogs and it is kind of "luck of the draw" if you get a high drive dog. I own a dog from them and LOVE HIM TO DEATH! But he is NOT drivey (at least not yet - 15 months old) and we will be LUCKY to get a ScH1 under our belt. He is fantastic at obedience and tracker but it has been a labor of love to find something that he will work for. 

I know other dogs from them also, one is 4 years old and fantastic BH and still very ify with Schutzhund (if he wants to work it's amazing, but if he doesn't well...). Their drive is just a lot lower than lets say a Czech dog. Which I will be purchasing a Czech/DDR dog as my next working dog. Beauty, Balance, Brains and drive!

So french ring, good luck! They do have some decent some-what drivey dogs but I don't think your going to come close to french ring drive. Just FYI. 

I do very much love my boy, he is outstanding. But I wanted a drivey dog to work in PSA/Schutzhund, glad I didn't end up with one now (my first GSD), but knowing what I know now, I will get another GSD and make sure the parents are tittled and working in what I want to do with the puppy.
Not just what the lineage looks like.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Freestep said:


> What would you say the DDR dogs excel at, if not sport?


Tracking, obedience and herding are these dogs strong suits. I've seen DDR dogs do well in sports but it's just not like some of the other working dog lines that are just prey driven like CRAZY!


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Nice dogs, probably great family companions; not what I would chose for French Ring sport however.


 
well first of all ... the french ring sport seem interesting and i would like maybe one day to give it a try .. not to be a champ either . just to have fun doing something with my dog ... 

im looking for a medium drive gsd because i want my dog to be able to fallow me into my activities ( quad racer / roller blade / mountain walking etc ) and maybe some french ring or Schutzhund .

and for me Sable / Dark Sable gsd look stunning ... thats why im looking for a breeder ...

Something sure is that i would let the breeder knows the activities im going to do with the dog .. and i expect him to not sell me a crazy drive Gsd


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

suzzyq01 said:


> This is a correct statement they do breed strictly 100% DDR dogs, however they are more for companion/family dogs and it is kind of "luck of the draw" if you get a high drive dog. I own a dog from them and LOVE HIM TO DEATH! But he is NOT drivey (at least not yet - 15 months old) and we will be LUCKY to get a ScH1 under our belt. He is fantastic at obedience and tracker but it has been a labor of love to find something that he will work for.


Sounds good to me!  I'm at the point in my life where a high-drive dog would not be a good match for me. My puppy's pedigree says she should be a drivey little prey monster, but thankfully, she isn't. Her drive, thresholds, and energy levels are moderate, making her a pleasure to live with. She's always ready to play, but isn't terribly demanding. So if the DDR dogs are anything like that, they sound like the perfect dog to me!


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Sounds good to me!  I'm at the point in my life where a high-drive dog would not be a good match for me. My puppy's pedigree says she should be a drivey little prey monster, but thankfully, she isn't. Her drive, thresholds, and energy levels are moderate, making her a pleasure to live with. She's always ready to play, but isn't terribly demanding. So if the DDR dogs are anything like that, they sound like the perfect dog to me!


I honestly didn't have a clue what I wanted, I have always been interested in Schutzhund and just knew I wanted to do that. Even after months of research (not knowing about this forum) on my own, reading books and internet stuff I just knew I liked the DDR lines and look of them. It sounded to me like it was a very versatile dog that would eat my house or be too demanding but still be able to do the sports I wanted to. I found a breeder that I really liked (Goble Kennels) the people were fantastic, and the dogs were beautiful and social. The lines of mom and dad looked promising as there are ScH1-3 tittles on many of the dogs. So I went for it. I am glad I did too, he is such a beautiful, amazingly tempered, obedient dog that I couldn't have asked for anything else. My life doesn't really warrant a high drive demanding dog to do the work I want to with it, right now. (everything happens for a reason!)
He is also my first GSD so I have learned SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much from him, this board, GSD owners, Clubs, and my trainers that next time I go to get a GSD I will know exactly what I want and where to go. He has just made me fall in love with the breed. They are amazing, and I love the sables.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> It's not an issue of titles or not. The traits common in the DDR lines and the typical DDR type of temperament are not conducive to most modern sport training. While these dogs can be very nice for a lot of things, sports that focus on tons of prey drive (and often very little else) are not suitable for DDR dogs. So I'd agree, not the best choice for FR competition, or most modern sport competition.


Chris is correct - the normal DDR puppy produced in this country is NOT a terrific sport prospect given the style/fashion of training and judging/points. The extreme toy/prey is not part of these genetics and that is what works with the training fashion now.

I know because (at the risk of repeating myself - but since not every newcomer to the board reads every old post!!!!) I did train and title a predominantly DDR female. Super ability at tracking and protection - ho hum interest in competitive obedience - retrieves were frustrating to train...and while correct were never flashy...she was a solid 85 OB throughout - heeling ok, but not flashy, recalls and motions always correct - but we never got great scores because of the style preferred in competition. Training her was a great learning experience. Biddability??? LOL LOL Kyra had her own agenda - pleasing me was not high on that list...she was very solid and did Sch3 at least a half dozen times, with 2 HITs and Vs in Protection...great nerves, would work anywhere on anyone - LE trainers always really admired her - but not a competition dog. So if you want the color and look of the DDR - go for it - but I would never ever recommend anyone getting a DDR line dog who has a strong interest in sport/competition. 

What they do bring is a serious side, a "real" dog. Taking the DDR female to a WGR WL dog from older bloodlines gave me a super super litter. Very serious "real" dogs, with plenty of toy drive, biddability and power - and kept the good looks as well. Also very good for house dogs who can settle while keeping working ability.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in other words you are looking for a healthy,  sound, stable , good looking dog , that will be happy to participate in your activities . That's not that hard ---
Find the breeder -- let them find the dog . 
I too don't like the "pick" or even the "alpha" talk that gets kicked around.
Pick is only relevant to the needs . Pick for one category may be dead last for another. Alpha ? , that is dynamic. Remove one single pup and the structure changes . Sometimes the dog described as alpha is insecure and putting up a front .

Unfortunately many DDR breeders have not got a clue about the genetics -- they just breed to a market niche -- which is the ddr lines --- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think DDRs are falling out of fashion, actually. Everyone learned what a prey drive means, and that it's so much easier to train a dog with high prey drive, makes you feel like a super trainer right off the bat  I am so afraid that in ten years (hopefully) it will be impossible to find a good solid DDR dog anymore...


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

between them and the Czech dogs, they are my favorite. My aunt used to train Police dogs back in the late 80's, early 90's and i was told that the last one she had was a DDR. Back then i was 8-10 years old so i didn't understand what that meant, but just the look of him was pure intimidation. That Black Sable with red rings around his eyes just made me shiver. I still see pictures of him today and i still get that feeling. Although he had that look and meant business when he had to, with me and my sister he was always gentle and our best friend. I will never forget that. RIP Panzer


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## Ronda (Aug 23, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Fitting their entire body into their water dish and then tracking it all over the house, apparently.  My (mostly) DDR boy has a great talent for that. Also climbing from the couch, to the back of the couch, across the bar stools, to the bar, to the counter, to the top of the fridge where the cookies are cooling.


 
Sorry, but this is too funny! Made me giggle when I read it...Kopper sounds like a character.

Ronda


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Ronda said:


> Sorry, but this is too funny! Made me giggle when I read it...Kopper sounds like a character.


Oh my Lord you have no idea. 
Dog needs his own TV show. We just sit around watching him like this: opcorn:


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Dexter said:


> well first of all ... the french ring sport seem interesting and i would like maybe one day to give it a try .. not to be a champ either . just to have fun doing something with my dog ...
> 
> im looking for a medium drive gsd because i want my dog to be able to fallow me into my activities ( quad racer / roller blade / mountain walking etc ) and maybe some french ring or Schutzhund .
> 
> ...


Then I'm still confused as to why having the "pick"puppy is even on your radar yet alone a reason to bypass a breeder?


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Then I'm still confused as to why having the "pick"puppy is even on your radar yet alone a reason to bypass a breeder?


 
i just dont understand what u mean at all


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> SO??? What does "first pick" even mean? Breeders should be matching dogs to what the person wants. You want an "active companion" so I certainly hope the breeder isn't matching you with the absolutely highest drive monster in the bunch. There isn't one size fits all for all dog owners. I personally am put off by "first pick." Obviously if a breeder has 3 people all wanting SchH prospects and the same general traits I can understand it. But someone not even sure if they are going to be doing and sport with their dog worrying about getting first pick seems a bit absurd to me.


:thumbup: I agree.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

ok i got you now .. sry i had to go back to page 1 to read what u said earlier ...

well i got the first pick of that litter , not to get the best dog with the best drive and all that stuff .. just having the first choice to be able to pick the dog i want and have some choice ... its sure that if i fall in love with a pups and the breeder let me know its a high drive one , i might change my choice .. im not dumb ... i just dont want to take the risk some1 else go away with the dog i would have been able to get  . The litter i have first pick is a male Sable and a female bicolor .. i just want to make sure i get the Dark Sable one if there is any . But like i said , even if there is one Dark Sable in the litter and its High drive , i wont take him .. but at least i could have taken the decision .

but dont mistake me, that Post is just to seek a dark sable breeder ... ( and i actualy found one http://www.goblekennels.com ) i dont want first pick of that breeder's next litter .


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Dexter said:


> well i got the first pick of that litter , not to get the best dog with the best drive and all that stuff .. just having the first choice to be able to pick the dog i want and have some choice ... its sure that if i fall in love with a pups and the breeder let me know its a high drive one , i might change my choice .. im not dumb ... i just dont want to take the risk some1 else go away with the dog i would be able to get


You should not be picking the puppy at all. The breeder should be choosing the right puppy for you. They are with the puppies everyday from the day they were born to the day that they leave and go to their new homes. They know the personalities, temperment and drive of each puppy. You need to tell the breeder exactly what you want in a dog and then they match you with the puppy they think is best for you.

I would not support a breeder that offers "first pick" and lets the puppy buyer choose their own puppy.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

ummm double post .. my edit messed up for unknow reason ! w/e !


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> You should not be picking the puppy at all. The breeder should be choosing the right puppy for you. They are with the puppies everyday from the day they were born to the day that they leave and go to their new homes. They know the personalities, temperment and drive of each puppy. You need to tell the breeder exactly what you want in a dog and then they match you with the puppy they think is best for you.
> 
> I would not support a breeder that offers "first pick" and lets the puppy buyer choose their own puppy.


 
to be honest . i totaly understand the way u see thing and i agree with it also ...

i just took first pick cause im a Sable lover and i know there is like 50% of chance to get one .. so i wanted to have all the chance possible . 

But i am absolutly aware that even if there is one and hes a Crazy ball drive dog , i wont take him ( breeder wont let me either ! dont get them wrong )... but i had all chance on my side .


i dont know if u understand what i mean ... since im french , its hard to put in words the thing i fell and want to tell ...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

As I posted - there are breeders looking to sell pet pups based on color. You found one. There is nothing to indicate any litter here has been bred for any other reason than to sell dark and "black" sable pets. And looking through their large string of breeding females, a bright shining example of why most responsible breeders sell on limited registration. A commercial facility where female pups were purchased on basis of color and for the purpose of breeding more pups of that color. Working ability is a lottery ticket in this scheme of things.

Lee


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I don't believe they are breeding just for color. I know this because I have been on their property, met them and their dogs. We talked for hours before I even decided to choose them as my breeder. Their two males Newman and Wolfgang are both CGC, TDI and they are working towards BH and Herding with them. They website does not do them, their dogs, and the reason they breed justice. Speaking to them does. All of their dogs are health screened and live in the home as part of the family. 

"*Goble Kennels* specializes in East German Shepherds. We are dedicated to producing healthy emotionally secure German Shepherds. Our dogs are well suited as loving family companions, are equally adept as working dogs, great for sport and comfortable as therapy dogs. "

More of a companion dog yes, but they are very smart, willing to please, and amazing animals. 

Just saying.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Did not say they did not make nice pets. Said they have NO credentials that are universally considered "breedworthy" - sorry - almost any mongrel in a shelter can get a CGC/TDI with an 8 or 10 week class. What ARE they breeding for if not for pets???? They are not using any titled dogs for stud on their females, just their own 2 pet males - the only positive is the OFAs  besides the color of course!


Just this is NOT a breeder to buy a working prospect off of. And a ton of their females are from the same highly recommended breeder, and are used for breeding with only (at least!!!) OFAs. Sorry - looking at their website - it is still a commercial pet breeder choosing breeding stock and selling for pets to people looking for dark or "black" sable puppies. People love their pets, nothing wrong with that. Does not make them a breeder to buy a possible working prospect off of. JMO

Lee


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I agree that you would not necessary want to purchase a puppy from them IF you are interested in a high drive dog working prospect. A LOT of people now a days want a GSD for a pet, that isn't overly insane for the ball and does not requires a ton of exercise, but is still able to perform the duty of being a GSD. 

You can't say that _any s_helter dog can get a CGC/TDI, some dogs have terrible nerves and other issues that a 8-10 weeks training class can not train out. Not to mention some breeders with tittled dogs can't produce puppies who can obtain these tittles because the nerves are so week. 

They are in the process of getting tittles on the two males, they are still young. Gotta start somewhere and so CGC/TDI is the beginning. 

Trust me, I would rather have them as a breeder who health/temperment tests and has CGC/TDI on their dogs, and treat their dogs like family and raise the puppies in their home, etc. Than a tittled dog who lives in an outside kennel and is only worked and bred. That is my personal opinion. 

There are plenty of kennels who pump out puppies and the parent(s) are tittled but they don't treat the dogs like family. So they are a better breeder because their dogs are tittled?? I've seen tittled dogs who are bred who can't be around people or other dogs without trying to eat them....yeah, that's what I want for a family pet! But because they tittled the dog that makes them a better breeder????

There is give and takes and a market for BOTH types of "reputable breeders."

Buyer #1 wants a low/medium drive balanced GSD but to be a family pet who they can enjoy and not have to constantly play with or train for anything in particular, a family pet/home protector. Easy tired out.

(I would say this represents the breed standard)
*Buyer #2 wants a medium/high drive balanced GSD that can do it all work/play and be a family pet and but an energy level requires training/working/vigorous playing for the dogs energy level. Moderate to tire out.*

Buyer #3 wants a high/insane drive balanced GSD that is meant working (police) and competitions (PSA/ScH2-3/FR). Makes a decent family pet but has extremely high energy/drive levels and takes dedication to training/working/vigorous playing for the dogs energy level. Difficult to tire out.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think you guys are saying the same thing. Goble is a breeder of dark sable pet dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

suzzyq01 said:


> I agree that you would not necessary want to purchase a puppy from them IF you are interested in a high drive dog working prospect. A LOT of people now a days want a GSD for a pet, that isn't overly insane for the ball and does not requires a ton of exercise, but is still able to perform the duty of being a GSD.


the "duty of being a GSD" IS what we are talking about. Breed worthiness. Not dogs who look nice but are NOT proven to be ABLE to "do the duty of being a GSD". Many of my "high drive working dogs" live as pets and are FINE as pets....insane for the work, couch potatoes in the house.....




> You can't say that _any s_helter dog can get a CGC/TDI, some dogs have terrible nerves and other issues that a 8-10 weeks training class can not train out. Not to mention some breeders with tittled dogs can't produce puppies who can obtain these tittles because the nerves are so week.


I did not say ANY - I said ALMOST all - I have seen tons and tons and tons of dogs over the last 15 years get CGCs and TDIs who have been coaxed and conditioned into them....mixed breeds, purebreds.. even aggressive dogs and bad nerves - take a class, work your butt off with a bad nerved one, do the 'meet and greet' with a dog that you worked for 8 weeks with and leave the dog with someone who has held it every class for 8 weeks. I have done them myself - cold turkey - no class, take a dog into a strange place, strange dogs, strange people and passed them....last summer with my black sable Sch2 male who should have been a police dog. Like anything else...not all CGCs are equal.



> They are in the process of getting tittles on the two males, they are still young. Gotta start somewhere and so CGC/TDI is the beginning.


See above - fine - good....but NOT breeding titles if you follow the German standard with German dogs. Use titled dogs to breed UNTIL these guys are breedworthy....




> Trust me, I would rather have them as a breeder who health/temperment tests and has CGC/TDI on their dogs, and treat their dogs like family and raise the puppies in their home, etc. Than a tittled dog who lives in an outside kennel and is only worked and bred. That is my personal opinion.
> 
> There are plenty of kennels who pump out puppies and the parent(s) are tittled but they don't treat the dogs like family. So they are a better breeder because their dogs are tittled?? I've seen tittled dogs who are bred who can't be around people or other dogs without trying to eat them....yeah, that's what I want for a family pet! But because they tittled the dog that makes them a better breeder????


You have a dog you like -that's great. I am NOT arguing that these are probably pretty family GSD _pets!!!_ You are taking offense that I think that GSD breeders SHOULD FOLLOW the standard - yes, there can be some small differences - I can see using SAR certified dogs, LE dogs and dogs who are proven in some working venue - even to flyball and dock diving - agility - ADVANCED herding....but CGC - ahh no - not breedworthy credentials....

And there are abuses on both ends - yes, I have seen some less than stellar  titled dogs.....saw them pass trials in their own clubs, own helpers, given a ton of help....does NOT mean I agree with THOSE being bred either! But if you research, you can find out which are really breedworthy, and which are not....I know a few breeders whose dogs I would never recommend, titled or not, due to the nerves and temperament....I only recommend pups from dogs/people I know personally or via personal contacts.



> There is give and takes and a market for BOTH types of "reputable breeders."
> 
> Buyer #1 wants a low/medium drive balanced GSD but to be a family pet who they can enjoy and not have to constantly play with or train for anything in particular, a family pet/home protector. Easy tired out.
> 
> ...


Sorry - no 1 -this is not EVEN the standard for a Golden Retriever....LOL LOL THey do sell life sized stuffed animals for people who want a 'look' but not reality!

no 2 is closer to the reality of most balanced working line dogs....except that drives overcome physical exhaustion and they don't 'tire out' easily...



> Buyer #3 wants a high/insane drive balanced GSD that is meant working (police) and competitions (PSA/ScH2-3/FR). Makes a decent family pet but has extremely high energy/drive levels and takes dedication to training/working/vigorous playing for the dogs energy level. Difficult to tire out.


No 2 and 3 are a bit skewed....competition and police dogs are balanced in drives, stable in nerves, and still make family pets...yes - there are dogs who are so extreme that they do not make good pets - and IMO those are not so common, a just as faulty as any other flaw and used stereotypically by other types of breeders to steer puppy buyers out of WL dogs....

Look - you love your dog and like your breeders - that is great - glad you are happy....but these are not dogs who have been tested under pressure to ensure they DO have the tenacity, courage and balance of drives and nerves to meet the standard. Hence, my opinion is that this is a breeder who is breeding for pets. Why is that so offensive to you??? You have a pet you like...that is great...all my pups who are in working/pet homes, or pet homes without working love them too....and none of them have had their homes destroyed by "high drive workign dogs".

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

1st post incomplete and not finished....2nd one finished....mods please delete 1st one


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Lee

It wasn't offensive to me that you were saying my dog is a pet GSD, he has great working abilities he is a fantastic tracker (in the process of training) and amazing at obedience (going to compete in our first trial in October). He is a pet/child (most likely where you hit the nerve, he is my son ) and home security alarm. 

I suppose I felt like you were saying the breeder wasn't reputable because they don't have tittled dogs. I don't feel like this is true. They offer a stable, healthy, beautiful GSD that waivers a bit from the standard in drive but are fantastic dogs. For a price that doesn't break the bank. The more letters after a name the more money they are. 

I think my point is that wouldn't you rather have someone purchase a puppy from a breeder like this one who makes sure the dogs are healthy, etc than a breeder who does nothing and calls themselves breeders? or has tittled dogs who are basically a puppy mill?? 


I am not trying to argue, just want you/everyone to know that I respect my breeder and their code of ethics. I recommend them to people looking for more of a lower activity/drive "pet" GSD. Nothing wrong with that. :hug:


Now let's agree to disagree and kiss and make up :toasting:


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Well after being on their website and chating with SuzzyQ , i actualy understood that the Breeder are not selling their GSD as High drive working dog , but more as companion and good family pet ...

they been able to get the color they want with the character they were looking for ...I think thats actualy a good breeder .

For me , like i said , looking for a family pet with medium / moderate drive im really considering this breeder ...

Saying breeder sells based on color is a big wrong i would say . cause when i read this i actualy undertstand '' they just sell considering color and dont give a danm about character trait . wich is absolutely false . On their ebsite , they actualy claiming they sell family pet .


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Dexter have been a crazy high drive dog ... sad hes already gone , cause i became used to it . If i could bring him back , i would before replacing him with any other dog .

but now i have the choice to get another dog so im starting to consider what to get . My dog is already reserved from another breeder but i know its going to be a high drive dog ...

but even if i dont do any working sport yet , i found it so easy to deal with a high drive dog to let him lurn stuff , was so easy to get his attention towards me ...

i am really Sit on the line atm to decide what kind of gsd i want for my next dog <.<
hard to choose .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dexter said:


> ok i got you now .. sry i had to go back to page to read what u said earlier ...
> 
> 
> 
> but dont mistake me, that Post is just to seek a dark sable breeder ... ( and i actualy found one http://www.goblekennels.com ) i dont want first pick of that breeder's next litter .


 
xxxx why does the one pup look like he has a shaved leg , just above the pastern -- looks like a prep for an IV ???

Carmen


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Spay


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh . Okay. But that bugs me because the pup is so young . Can't be more than 5 or 6 months -- not going back to check for accuracy -- but this is young , too young.

I mentioned before that the females , (so many) , are all within a year or two of each other in age --- to me that is a shopping spree to set up shop for breeding.

I had sold someone a female , who a few months later came back to me and wanted me to set up a whole breeding operation for them. I absolutely refused .
Yes they did get a bunch-a-dogs and are in business.

Dexter, I thought you had plans for French Ring?

Carmen


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Oh . Okay. But that bugs me because the pup is so young . Can't be more than 5 or 6 months -- not going back to check for accuracy -- but this is young , too young.
> 
> I mentioned before that the females , (so many) , are all within a year or two of each other in age --- to me that is a shopping spree to set up shop for breeding.
> 
> ...


Carmen, It's kind of a long story but the gist of it is they used to be involved/partners with ** name removed by Admin** kennels, didn't like the ethics of how she was going about things anymore and decided to separate and start a name for themselves. They took the dogs they owned (most of the current females) and started Goble Kennels. So their foundation is still around because they are relatively new to doing it as Goble Kennels. 

They also request that the buyers of their pups wait to spay/neuter them until they are at least 24 months old so they can completely develop. BUT most vets you see now want to neuter/spay asap as to keep the cost down to the owners. The more the dog weighs the more expensive to sedate. But of course it is the right of the buyer to do as they wish.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Dexter, I thought you had plans for French Ring?
> 
> Carmen


i do .. there is a club near were i live . but i wont buy a dog only for that ...from my research , that kind of sport take a lot of time , and its not somethng u can work on it only the weekends .. and im working at night , so im not sure i would have time for it .. yet .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thanks , that explains a whole lot. (both Suzy and Dexter)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

suzzyq01 said:


> Carmen, It's kind of a long story but the gist of it is they used to be involved/partners with **name removed by Admin** kennels, didn't like the ethics of how she was going about things anymore and decided to separate and start a name for themselves.


That's interesting, I don't know what their beef would be, as ** Name removed by Admin** has been around a while and seemed to me to be reputable and producing some high-quality animals... wasn't one of their males producing some guide dogs?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

yes, Wasdy, I had a male out of Wasdy, who was out of Zorro v Laagerwall..Wasdy was also PP certified..You'd never know it, he was a wonderful stable sound dog who could go anywhere , do anything. He was the 'best' dog ever, I lost him 2 years ago at the age of 13 

My girl Masi is a Reiko v Hena C granddaughter.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I am only going on information of what I am told by other people who know of the situation (not anyone at Goble Kennels). I've heard although **name removed by Admin** dogs are fantastic (and they are) the breeder was not being fair to their partners. Like I said this is what I hear from people who are close to both of them, trainers, etc. Basically they were doing a lot of the work and not getting any credit, all credit was going to **name removed by Admin** (**the breeder, not the team and partners).


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Dexter said:


> Well after being on their website and chating with SuzzyQ , i actualy understood that the Breeder are not selling their GSD as High drive working dog , but more as companion and good family pet ...
> 
> they been able to get the color they want with the character they were looking for ...I think thats actualy a good breeder .
> 
> ...


Ok so you chatted with everyone here, someone who has a dog from them and looked on their website. Why haven't you CALLED them? If you have reached out to them then disregard this part but if you haven't....wouldn't it make sense to call and speak with them first before you form an opinion? 

Its kinda weird to say "it is wrong to breed for color" but here you are on here looking for dark sable czech/ddr dog. It isn't like you asked for a certain type of dog that _if possible can be a dark sable_.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Ace, call them, you got an opinion from someone who has one of their dogs, you say they have what your looking for..So call them, who knows they may not have anything available..Go VISIT them if your able. 

I do agree with Lee tho, if your looking to do competition sport, they probably don't have what your looking for other than color.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Well Ace first of all , i am actualy trying to reach them by mail and will call them later if needed . Post have been open to help me out find Breeder and NOT to start explaining what dog i am looking for , this is the chat i need to be done with the breeder himself ...

speaking about opinion , well so far with what i saw , its already made .. they are selling family dog with dark sable coat , wich is all fine actualy if its what they are claming to sell ... Some people need that . if they were selling it as Sport dog with lot of working abilities , it woud be different .

i am just at the seeking stage , weird how some post go fast out of the Topic sometimes .


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Ace, call them, you got an opinion from someone who has one of their dogs, you say they have what your looking for..So call them, who knows they may not have anything available..Go VISIT them if your able.
> 
> I do agree with Lee tho, if your looking to do competition sport, they probably don't have what your looking for other than color.


 
said this way , i absolutely agree ... 

is it possible to get a dog in the mid range , a dog i can do sport witout trying to be the best of ! and a dog who would be a perfect home companion !


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would think that is definately possible..there are ALOT of sport dogs that can settle very nicely in a home, I would say the majority, vs the minority of sport dogs DO live in someone's home as a pet/companion.

I would also say, look at Chris Wilds' dogs, Lee's dogs, Carmen's, Cliff's, Robin, (forgive me I know I'm forgetting some on this very board)..they all do 'sports' and/or producing dogs for sport and they have dogs that live in their homes as well. 

Maybe not the color you want, but maybe they are. 

Check out www.vonhena-c.com and see what she's produced in her gallery of retired dogs/sold dogs. 

Angie at Liberatore in Maine comes to mind as well.

I have now a slovak/ddr/czech girl, I'm not doing schutzhund with her, because frankly it's not available to me without having to drive a zillion miles and I'm not that dedicated to it. She's high energy, but has settled nicely with maturity (thank god
great dog, love her to death, but in the wrong home, she probably would have driven a sane person crazy the first year or so 

I think you have to decide if you want to do sport such as schutzhund or not, I would say most places (training places) want their students to be serious and dedicated vs 'maybe', ya know? 

There are so many other things these dogs can do , herding, agility, obedience, tracking, to name a few, that are just as fun and rewarding.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

suzzyq01 said:


> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> I think my point is that wouldn't you rather have someone purchase a puppy from a breeder like this one who makes sure the dogs are healthy, etc than a breeder who does nothing and calls themselves breeders? or has tittled dogs who are basically a puppy mill??


actually, I probably wouldn't recommend ANY of the types of breeder you mentioned. You can get a breeder who works, knows and understands his dogs, treats them like family, and does everything possible to ensure healthy dogs. 

I don't see anything wrong with wanting a specific color, as long as that is just part of the total package. Find a good breeder with dogs you like and, if necessary, wait for the right pup to come along.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> actually, I probably wouldn't recommend ANY of the types of breeder you mentioned. You can get a breeder who works, knows and understands his dogs, treats them like family, and does everything possible to ensure healthy dogs.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with wanting a specific color, as long as that is just part of the total package. Find a good breeder with dogs you like and, if necessary, wait for the right pup to come along.


 
i love you ! thats what i meant!


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Check out www.vonhena-c.com and see what she's produced in her gallery of retired dogs/sold dogs.


 
this breeder also interesting , save in fav , ill contact them


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dexter said:


> Well Ace first of all , i am actualy trying to reach them by mail and will call them later if needed


 Mail? Like the actual mail? Do they even make that any more? 




Dexter said:


> Post have been open to help me out find Breeder and NOT to start explaining what dog i am looking for ,


 Sorry. It's impossible to help you out find Breeder until you explain what dog you are looking for. Unless you want us to give you a list of all the breeders under God's hot sun who breed sable dogs. 




Dexter said:


> i am just at the seeking stage , weird how some post go fast out of the Topic sometimes .


Sorry, that's the internet. If you don't like it, stick with mail.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Sorry, that's the internet. If you don't like it, stick with mail.


@[email protected] i meant email !!!

and btw , why so arrogant ? 

i said before english is not my frist language and its kinda broken ... maybe i said something that have been missunderstood/mistaken ...

if i have been arrogant myself ealier and that why u said this , well im absolutely sry and it have not been said on purpuse .


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dexter said:


> @[email protected] i meant email !!!
> 
> and btw , why so arrogant ?  .


I actually thought you meant mail. 

Why so arrogant? Because it's the nature of the internet to go off topic. Asking why an internet post went off topic is like asking a dog why it chases the ball. Because it is in their nature to do so. People act all surprised and puzzled when other people on the internet give their opinions and go off topic. That's what happens on the internet. I'm really really not trying to be mean or arrogant here, but if it upsets you for people to give opinions that conflict with yours, to tell you what they think you should do, and for posts to go off topic, you might want to stay off message boards. Because that's what message boards do.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

dexter just to add, sometimes alot of breeders just don't have much time for emails, so when one doesn't get back to you right away, don't take as them ignoring you. 

Sometimes it IS better to call and speak to them personally, if say, you don't get a response within a week..


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Edit: Of course this being the internet doesn't give people the right to be rude or mean. If I have come across that way I certainly do apologize. Sometimes it's hard to catch people's "tone of voice" in typing.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

[email protected]
I thought snail mail as well.

Sometimes just picking up the phone is a lot easier. More information can be conveyed via a phone call than a email. When I was looking for my 1st GSD I came across this breeders website and I called them. The guy I spoke with was very nice, informative and answered all of my questions. In a world of text messages and emails, sometimes a phone call is the best way to speak with someone. Many breeders have dogs that they don't list on their site for different reasons. 

Dainerra is correct. Many people come on here looking for recommendations on breeders but it is hard to do that without know EXACTLY what you are looking for.

Good luck in your search.


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

So......do i get a $100 referral if you do buy a pup from them


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

i was looking at their Male from that website : Goble Kennels | East German Shepherd Breeders Dogs and Puppies | Loudon, NH

than i goes into database and searched the DN number : here is the male : Goble Wolfgang - German Shepherd Dog

as u can see , the father have : *HD-OFA: Fair ... *it mean he had some trouble with hips ???

Honestly other than drive and sport abilities , what u think of that breeder guys ?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Gero Rockenberger Schloss was here in Western PA a few years back - there were 3 people breeding DDR/Czech and Rannie was purchased in whelp to Brawnson by one of them....these three bred tons of puppies for about 5 years, then pretty much dispersed because they produced so many problematic pups that they were doing nothing but replacement litters! Gero was an extremely poor producer of hips and other health problems....Jika v h Maul was owned by an aquaintance of mine - I saw the x-rays - horrible horrible hips....this guy had another Gero son from a different female who was used to produce one of those replacement litters without being OFA'd - but subsequently put down about 6 months later...EPI, OCD and poor hips - the guy got a pup from that litter and it was problematic as well.......

Frankly I would not touch anything with Gero/haus Maul (even the one named Poranichini Straze was a haus Maul) in the pedigree with a 20 foot pole! 

Lee


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dexter said:


> as u can see , the father have : *HD-OFA: Fair ... *it mean he had some trouble with hips ???


I don't know a thing about this breeder or the pedigree of the dogs, but OFA Fair does not mean bad hips. OFA rates hips as Excellent, Good, or Fair if they do NOT have HD - these are all considered normal hips. From there it goes to Borderline, or one of the HD ratings of Mild, Moderate, and Severe. 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Debbie - look at the family - look at the siblings, look on OFA....normally I would agree with you....but IMO this is a really high risk pedigree....look at Rani's production - how she was passed from kennel to kennel...this is a case of one passing while many of his siblings, full and half, failed OFA....since I knew quite a few personally, I am very aware of it...the owner of Jika wanted desparately to breed to my black male....I had seen the female often since she was a pup, knew of others in the immediate family, and told him ONLY if she went OFA Good - and was 99,99999% sure she would fail OFA....at least it made him spay her, otherwise he would have bred her without hip x-rays.....Mike Russel, who used to be on this board, also had a Rani male who had to be euthanized due to some health issue - had bad elbows ... not sure now what happened that he had to be put down.....


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Frankly I would not touch anything with Gero/haus Maul (even the one named Poranichini Straze was a haus Maul) in the pedigree with a 20 foot pole!


Do you mean Gero z Blatenskeho zamku?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Ace952 said:


> Do you mean Gero z Blatenskeho zamku?


No - Gero Rockenberger Schloss....sire of the stud dog at this kennel. Never saw the pedigree until someone posted the link above. 

Gero was also passed around in the US and last I remember he was in a DDR line breeder like this in Texas.

http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1133986#animal

I pushed Bill into sending Jika into OFA - many people with dogs with really bad hips do not submit to OFA unless there is a warranty issue....

Lee


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> No - Gero Rockenberger Schloss....sire of the stud dog at this kennel. Never saw the pedigree until someone posted the link above.
> 
> Gero was also passed around in the US and last I remember he was in a DDR line breeder like this in Texas.
> 
> ...



Oh ok, gotcha.

What caught my eye looking at the OFA link was the dog, TASSIA Z POHRANICNI STRAZE. There is no way that dog should have that kennel name especially since it was born here in the U.S. in 2003. WTF?!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My friend had a female out of Rannie and Brawson-she passed OFA and was an awesome working dog-really fun dog


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wolfstraum said:


> Debbie - look at the family - look at the siblings, look on OFA....normally I would agree with you....but IMO this is a really high risk pedigree....


I'm sure you're right Lee, you know a lot more about pedigrees than I do (which is practically nothing!), I was just replying to his question about what OFA Fair meant.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Dexter, you asked if one would buy from this breeder, I will give you my opinion, and this is certainly not to take away or in anyway bash the breeder, I think his dogs are lovely, and I have a Reiko granddaughter (totally different breeding tho)

No, I wouldn't, why? because there are so many other breeders/dogs out there that would better suit ME. You've been given some other choices, check them out.

Until you even talk to the guy on the phone, there's no point in going on about it, because he may have nothing available, I'm told he has a waiting list which could mean he has or will have nothing for you. 

Fair is Fair, it doesn't mean a thing other than the dog is not dysplastic. I had a "Fair" dog, he lived until 13 years of age with no hip problems at all.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

And I know a dog that at first, came back OFA Fair. Had a better x-ray done and came back good. So much relys on how the actuall x-ray comes out. You cant just look at one dog. You look at the entire family tree (pedigree) if at all possible.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

holland said:


> My friend had a female out of Rannie and Brawson-she passed OFA and was an awesome working dog-really fun dog


No one commented on temperament or working ability on these dogs.

There is an old saying, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The whole point is that when you look at pedigrees, when you breed, you look at the whole family....the percentages - the laterals as well as the direct progeny and grandprogeny. When dogs with prestigious origins like Ranni and Denisza z PS are passed around, starting at a "good" known breeder, and quickly change homes with litter after litter having different kennel names, each more obscure than the last, it is logical to conclude that something is causing that to happen...in the case of these three, I happen to know people who bought their puppies - they were being sold very inexpensively locally and I knew quite a few people who had pups and who even ended up with some of the breeding dogs used, like Denisza z PS. Both females SHOULD have been spayed and retired after the pattern was obvious, but the reputation of their breeder's DDR/Czech kennel names kept them in circulation.

Breeding IS a crap shoot....you load the dice to get the best combinations you can....when dogs consistently produce bad hips/elbows or other issues, and are bred alot anyway, those genes get carried forward....the percentages in the breed are overall much lower than these two females and Gero produced....so which do you want a pup from????? a dog who produces 2 with bad hips out of 40 pups as opposed to a dog who produces 35 with bad hips or elbows out of 40 pups???? 

As far as the z PS female on OFA - I actually did correspond with someone who had her or one of her pups.....one of those cases where someone registered the dog using a kennel name from the pedigree....happens in AKC all the time...she is a full sister to Tika...bred and born in Western PA, not CR...

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm sure you're right Lee, you know a lot more about pedigrees than I do (which is practically nothing!), I was just replying to his question about what OFA Fair meant.


Sorry Deb, didn't mean to jump on you....you are right that Fair is passing, and means not the ideal conformation/structure of the hip joint...I have had 2 dogs who were Fair, and bred to a male who was FN/Fair - got all Goods with him as he was Fair due to his femoral heads being a bit small ....my son of his had his exact hips when you compared the x-rays as well. 

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

How come you spend so much time talking about the weaknesses in other peoples breeding program and never your own-maybe because your breeding program has no weaknesses-anyway in knowing the actual dog -even if hips are a weakness_I would get a puppy from her _and I would have loved to have owned her anyday


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh and when dogs are passed around starting with the "good" breeder-then maybe it should be the "good" breeder that made the decison to spay her-and to make sure that she in a good home-so maybe what you are saying is the "good" breeder wasn't so "good"


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Kudos to you-though at least you are bashing big names in the sport-good for you-why just pick on the little guys


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

holland said:


> Oh and when dogs are passed around starting with the "good" breeder-then maybe it should be the "good" breeder that made the decison to spay her-and to make sure that she in a good home-so maybe what you are saying is the "good" breeder wasn't so "good"


Agree with this!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Is it bashing if it is the truth?

Personally, I think it is refreshing to hear someone openly discuss negatives in bloodlines. Every line has negatives and positives. Breeding should be about making educated decisions and then looking at the results.
If someone chooses to buy a puppy from lines known for questionable hip production, then they won't have much room for complaint if their dog ends up dysplastic.
(and I have no personal knowledge of the dogs in question).


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

It would be very refreshing if she was discussing her breeding program but usually it is others-very few breeders actually discuss the negetives of their breeding programs-and actually how do you know it is the truth-not all results are published in OFA so its based on what gets talked about-it doesn't matter much to me I would get a dog out of that female any day-bred to a male I liked


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I have to say that I don't know a lot about lines, I am learning for sure. I did what I consider "research" before deciding to choose this breeder and this litter. Newman x Hunni. 

I went into their pedigree and just got click happy, googled the dogs names and looked at the kennels they came from the work they did, the dogs they owned, ethics, etc. I noticed that on most of the dogs I looked at their hips/elbows were good and a couple were excellent. I looked for tittles, etc. For the most part I thought that it was a pretty good litter. BUT this is where I lacked the knowledge of lines and how the came to be. 

I suppose my responses to defend this breeder are based of the people and dogs. They are dedicated to their dogs, education to future owners, and check up on us to make sure the dogs are doing well and if we have any questions.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Holland, who are your posts directed towards? :thinking: If you're replying to a particular person it's helpful if you quote the part of their post that you're responding to, otherwise it's impossible to tell what you're talking about.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you can't figure out what I am talking about then don't worry about it


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

holland said:


> If you can't figure out what I am talking about then don't worry about it


You do not need to be so rude! 



She didn't deserve that response!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Holland, who are your posts directed towards? :thinking: If you're replying to a particular person it's helpful if you quote the part of their post that you're responding to, otherwise it's impossible to tell what you're talking about.


Just so you can understand my last post though-if you can't figure out what I am trying to say don't worry about it-Hope you are able to understand that


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

holland said:


> If you can't figure out what I am talking about then don't worry about it


:rofl: Sure, no problem! I ignore people's posts all the time. 

But if nobody knows who or what you're talking about, why bother to post at all? You have 3 posts in a row that could be directed at anyone who posted above you. Why make everyone guess who you're actually responding to?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

holland said:


> Just so you can understand my last post though-if you can't figure out what I am trying to say don't worry about it-Hope you are able to understand that


It's not that I don't understand what you're trying to say, I don't know who you're saying it TOO, or about. And I'm probably not the only one.

"You" _who_? "She" _who_?


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

holland said:


> It would be very refreshing if she was discussing her breeding program but usually it is others-very few breeders actually discuss the negetives of their breeding programs-and actually how do you know it is the truth-not all results are published in OFA so its based on what gets talked about-it doesn't matter much to me I would get a dog out of that female any day-bred to a male I liked


I believe.....:help:

This is referring to Lee's comments on the subject...


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

holland said:


> Kudos to you-though at least you are bashing big names in the sport-good for you-why just pick on the little guys


questionable who this was towards...


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Even though she bought from the vom shipwreck breeder she has a clue-seriously vom shipwreck? Kinda catchy though


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

ok ! errrrr i was not expecting a fight !  i just wanted you guys to let me know if u would by a dog at this place once u took a look at the pedigree database ! im pretty noob with pedigree thats y i asked !

cause for me , to be honest , i tough the breeder looked good... nice balanced home companion and all ... interesting for my kind of life . 

But when im looking at a pedigree three , i cant understand nothing about it !


JakodaCD OA said:


> Until you even talk to the guy on the phone, there's no point in going on about it, because he may have nothing available, I'm told he has a waiting list which could mean he has or will have nothing for you.


there is no point for me i think to call them , even if they have nothing available , im not buying a pups tomorow .. not in a hurry .
and its not really a question i can ask them ( if they have healthy dog or w/e )... its like asking to some1 who sell a car , if hes trying to rip u off . Hes gonna tell me the car are good and stuff ......

thats y i asked u guys a neutral into that transaction if u would buy a dog from them , not considering their working abilities cause that have been said , they are more kind of companion dog and family dog ..


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

holland said:


> Even though she bought from the vom shipwreck breeder she has a clue-seriously vom shipwreck? Kinda catchy though


There is no such thing as vom Shipwreck breeder....yet. He is a Goble dog. Hince Gobles Sonar vom Shipwreck. I added the vom Shipwreck. Kennels name is in front "Gobles". We shall see if he is the beginning of the vom Shipwreck's. Maybe, maybe not. But shipwreck had to be in the name somewhere and it sounded nice with the vom.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You could also name dogs after ship wrecks


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Dexter said:


> ok ! errrrr i was not expecting a fight !  i just wanted you guys to let me know if u would by a dog at this place once u took a look at the pedigree database ! im pretty noob with pedigree thats y i asked !
> 
> cause for me , to be honest , i tough the breeder looked good... nice balanced home companion and all ... interesting for my kind of life .
> 
> ...



Dexter

I would suggest you contact them to see what the waiting list looks like. You may not be able to even get a dog for a year based on their waiting list and planned breedings. They are on Face Book and are pretty good about checking that, and their emails. You can call and ask basic questions like: Is there a waiting list? How much are your pups? What pairing would produce *type of dog your looking for*? etc.

Also to add, you have a lot of people on this board who have strong opinions about certain subjects and breeders, breeding, and lines are BIG ones! So disagreements are bound to happen. As long as they are not malicious or disrespectful, opinions of any kind are welcomed. I've learned a lot in this thread.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

suzzyq01 said:


> I believe.....:help:
> 
> This is referring to Lee's comments on the subject...


Hard to say, though, isn't it? There are at least 3 breeders posting on this thread, so it could be Lee or it could be Chris or it could be Carmen. "She" and "her" could be referring to any of them. :shrug:


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Hard to say, though, isn't it? There are at least 3 breeders posting on this thread, so it could be Lee or it could be Chris or it could be Carmen. "She" and "her" could be referring to any of them. :shrug:


I concur.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...whatever


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Breeders of German Shepherds & Cairn Terriers | NH & MA | New Hampshire & Massachusetts - Pam Lake, Owner

this place seems to be really related to the other we talked ... found some rannie and gero into the bloodline too .

Edit : and just google maps their location , they are one close to each other , same city <.<


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Dexter, if you are interested in their puppies/dogs, (goble), I would do as suzy suggests, CALL them, when you talk to a breeder, they don't expect everyone to be looking for a puppy tomorrow, so as suzy said, if they have a long waiting list, get your name on it if your interested. You can always decline at a later date.

As for von hena c, Gobles dogs came from her breedings. His original breeding stock, he most likely has kept dogs out of those breedings for him self as well. 

If your looking for a pet, companion, then I WOULD go meet him, meet his dogs, as I said, you don't have to "buy" tomorrow, but most breeders have no problem with people coming to meet them and their dogs. 

And Holland, I don't see much of anything constructive and also am a little baffled by your posts, but hey I've had a long day at work


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I started talking to breeders 2 years before I was in the market for a pup. I continued talking to breeders when I was temporarily out of the market. Why? because I wanted to have a solid relationship with my chosen breeder when I WAS ready.
I would rather meet a breeder very early in my search than to find out at the last minute that it's not a good match. Also, some waiting lists can be very long, esp when you are looking for a particular color or other "special" request


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey what did I do?

Doesn't matter Holland, I would do the same as Lee, "Wolfstraum" . Too many people abdicate their responsibiltiy and let someone else step into the paper bag of poo.

Somewhere someone should have put a stop to the animal passed around , each time proving a strong genetic propensity to producing bad hips.

I was "victim" of such a scheme --- using a stud dog . The dog had a really good pedigree , was strong and confident and had x rayed clear hips (if that was to be trusted and that is another matter-) --- anyway a few breeders in my area took advantage of this import dogs brief stay in Canada. The pups were everything that you would want -- power house drives --- but my god what an ordeal. Every dog in my litter , from a female and from a line that had always produced majority ofa good, occassional excellent and minority fair -- with only one or two "borderline" to the record --- all dysplatic , hips and some even with elbow problems -- one female so bad I took her back and had her put to sleep, others all money refunded . 
Two other breeders with good working line dogs -- same problem -- terrible terrible hips.

Do people not think that there is a community out there and that facts get found out ?

So we went as a collective and made SURE that the owner/importer knew what was going on , complete with vet records , so that the dog be culled from breeding .

The person KNEW . Had no quarrel whatsoever . His justification was that if this stud dog produced even one dog like himself - then the causalities were worth it -- and he continued to promote the dog.

This was 20 years ago . As a breeder with only two litters per year on average , the financial penalty to me , a person who honours a guarantee, took me 3 years to recover - and then parvo came onto the scene.

I see dogs being passed around -- some fail to produce good temperament , some fail to produce good orthopedics. Females generally are the goose that laid the golden egg -- the foundation of a kennel. A good female rarely leaves . 

You see it also with unhealthy , in mind or body , dogs continually being fobbed off till someone "rescues" the dog , and they are burdened with the surprises that eventually show themselves. 
I have come home to find someone who dropped a dog off -- a dog so unstable we had to call animal control to come with a catch pole - and then I had to sign that the dog was not mine, and that I was relinquishing it with the knowledge that this dog could not be rehomed. That was a kindness the owner should have given to the dog. But they had to pass it on.
I have come home to find a dog skin and bones and mange eaten -- he was returned to health and given to a family . Other than his physical state he was a very likeable , trustworthy dog . 

There have been all sorts of shenanigans which has necessitated the SV to step in. I believe many of the Zamb progeny had some questions attached. Correct me if I am wrong . Substitute breeding partners, DNA required .

So I would be forthright and call a spade a spade .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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