# Question about raw



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

One of my dogs got sick on prepared raw meat which didn’t digest. It was all I had available so I substituted for a day. I won’t use it again. We had to see a different vet office that was open after hours. They were extremely upset with us and said that raw is dangerous and they treat it as a medical hazard. I was shocked and contacted my own vet the next day. They said they like raw diets when prepared safely. I know you all prefer raw, which was part of my decision to use it. But I wonder if there is any basis for their opinion. They claim they see a lot of dogs poisoned by raw bacteria, which was not at all what was wrong with my dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think there are several reasons some vets don't like it

1. Bacteria from poorly kept food or from spoiled meat that people feed instead of human grade.
2. pancreatitis for dogs that aren't used to higher fat
3. straight up bias
4. unbalanced diets that aren't healthy.

I've been feeding raw for about 10 years and not one single illness due to raw. I did end up at the vet when a dog (not one of my shepherds) ate a baking bag that had a roast in it and it sat in her stomach for days until she vomited it. We never even knew she ate it until them. It took weeks for the smell of that explosive diarrhea to leave the house.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Did they advise as to why the food did not digest? My dogs eat anything and everything from raw to fast food to dog food brand changes without transitioning and everything in between. The only thing I have ever had a problem with was with one dog that insist on swallowing socks whole, even knee high, winter weight socks. Chewed socks don't seem to be a problem. (rolls eyes)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

When we saw the X-ray the first thing I thought of was a sock. But it wasn’t. My guess is that I soaked the meat overnight to reconstitute because it was not absorbing all the water. I refrigerated it. Apparently that made it harder. It most likely ended up in an undigested huge glob. My dog was in screaming pain. They pushed fluids on an IV and it eventually passed. I have used that food before several times without prior problems. They oddly never diagnosed the cause. That was my suggestion when they determined it was not a blockage.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax, mine had symptoms due to food, so that justified their opinion. but it was a unique situation and should not happen again. I will never buy that type of freeze dried raw meat again. We are going to see a skin allergy specialist anyway soon, and they will look at diet. I told them mine were on raw and they were very positive about it. The tech who processed us out that day said to just cook the raw meat and then they would not have a problem. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of giving raw?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That doesn't sound like "raw" caused it. It sounds like the food didn't rehydrate and caused a really bad stomach ache. So no bacterial infection? Just a glob of food that sat in her gut undigested?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes, a huge ball. It was not bacterial, so I was blindsided when we got the release orders that said to have dog rechecked for bacterial infections. There never was one!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I might be wrong but the freezing in the "freeze dried" should have killed or made bacteria dormant? 

So what do they blame when kibble fed dogs come in with bacterial infections?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think you need to try real raw food, nothing processed at all. Hopefully when you go to the allergist they can point you in the right direction. When is the appointment?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

They said all dog food plants contain contaminants and that raw meat is potentially full of bacteria. I was very upset when I was told by the tech that raw fed dogs are considered contaminated. It’s not like there are a lot of emergency after hours vets to choose from. I spent a lot of time reading and researching, so I was not happy to be told I am basically an irresponsible owner. In their perspective, we all are.

I don’t usually feed prepared meat but my dog who had oral surgery needed a soft diet for two weeks. So I used THK with meat. Otherwise I never use that. I measure and repackage individual portions then freeze it. The one that didn’t work was another brand. Apparently chilling it disrupts the hydration process but it doesn’t say that anywhere on the package.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

It's the whole salmonella bias. Proper food handling resolves most of that. Oddly , biased vets scream about salmonella contamination to and from raw feed pets yet it seems that it is the processed kibbles and treats that are continuously recalled for salmonella contamination. *scratches head*.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

It's just common sense that feeding raw feed may make your dog sick. People are going to feed raw no matter what facts are presented against it, until their animals get sick. Even then you see them make excuses that it could not possibly been the raw meat. 



https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/01/raw-diets-a-healthy-choice-or-a-raw-deal/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/management-and-nutrition/nutrition-small-animals/dog-and-cat-foods


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@LuvShepherds - there was one study many years ago that raw fed dogs shed more bacteria. Therapy dog organizations banned them due to that. Which kind of makes sense given many therapy dogs are around immunosuppressed people.

However, there are now more studies out. One showing raw fed dogs had healthier gut flora. Interesting, huh?

A friend of mine is a dog food rep. She's toured many plants. Had in depth discussions with the manufacturers. there are super stringent regulations on dog food. If there is 1/2 of a dead cell of salmonella, there is an FDA required recall (yes, that actually happened). The sterilization process for commercial raw food is no less stringent than kibble or wet canned.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I tried raw once- did all my research, bought a box of chicken backs, all ready to go. A day or two later, my shepherd was acting sick and pooping black, digested blood. Took her to the vet where her rbc was low enough they considered transfusion. Luckily she recovered with antibiotics. Vet was not anti-raw but advised against it after that incident and I've never tried it again. She was so sick I was worried I might lose her... so that was that for me and mine. I know plenty of people feed raw without incident, but I won't risk it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That is terribly scary. Do they know exactly what caused it? That's internal bleeding of some sort. Bone puncture?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

They suggested we drop the meat into boiling water and remove it. That will kill any surface bacteria and make it safer. Is there any scientific reason not to do that? It’s just the meat they worry about not vegetables. 
@Muskeg, I’m sorry to hear what you went through. That is what I’ve always worried about with raw. But my older dog got extremely ill on kibble and my other dog bloated on kibble. Finally after trying to stop my older dog’s intermittent bloody vomit, as a last resort I put her on THK base mix with raw meat. She hasn’t had an episode of bloody stool or vomit since then. We are going on 5 months. So at this point, I hate to do anything to change that. My other dog has a sensitive stomach and except for this mistake on my part, has also done extremely well on raw.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, I do not think you will lose so many nutrients by cooking the food that it will be detrimental. Certainly not but just dropping it in the boiling water and then removing it. You do what makes you comfortable.  if you really want to get into it, you can take a spreadsheet and look up the values for food to see the difference. Some nutrients might be heat sensitive but if they really are that much, then how has the human race survived so long after the invention of fire?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax, thank you. I’m sending you a quick PM


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It was really scary. I still remember staying up all night with her obsessively checking her mucous membranes to make sure she wasn't bleeding out. The vet thought it was colitis, I believe, caused by bacteria. It was scary enough for me not to try raw again, even though I do understand why people feed raw. 

For Sunsilver, I guess the best we can do is avoid making the same mistake twice! I would feed raw again if and only if I had a locally sourced, organic place to get raw.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I checked nutrient loss

Cooking meat: what happens to the nutrients?

The loss of Thiamine (B1) in meat after braising and roasting was 38% to 50%, after broiling - 20% to 30%, after stewing - 49%. The loss of Riboflavine (B2) and Niacin (B3) varies from 15% to 48%.

Thiamine (B1) destruction is doubled for each 10 degree rise in temperature, however there is a tenfold increase in the rate of destruction of heat-resistant bacteria.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But what is that loss compared to the whole meal? Including a raw egg ?


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> I tried raw once- did all my research, bought a box of chicken backs, all ready to go. A day or two later, my shepherd was acting sick and pooping black, digested blood. Took her to the vet where her rbc was low enough they considered transfusion. Luckily she recovered with antibiotics. Vet was not anti-raw but advised against it after that incident and I've never tried it again. She was so sick I was worried I might lose her... so that was that for me and mine. I know plenty of people feed raw without incident, but I won't risk it.


My raw fed dog had colitis and total diarrhea for 8 days, currently on boiled beef and potatoes and transitioning to Freshpet.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

As you all know I’m not an expert, however, feeding raw initially bothered me as a physician. I think SOME veterinarians are stuck in the 90s with recommendations regarding nutrition and neutering or spaying despite multiple research trials showing conflicting data with what they were taught in veterinarian school . My two cents - Is to not feed a very young puppy raw due to only having passive immunity from mother. You have to worry about lysteria, salmonella, E. coli etc. Their stomach lining’s are still immature and need to colonize with good bacteria. Remember most grocery store meats when tested are tainted with feces. This is confirmed with research trials by FDA and that’s why it’s important to cook it for human use. I introduced Raw diet with puppy kibble soaked in apple cider vinegar for months with goat milk keifer. Apple cider vinegar kills a lot. I slowly switched to total raw diet. A dogs gastric pH is about 1.0 after eating and they can pretty much kill anything in their stomach . Botulism, E. coli, salmonella etc. They need a strong gastric flora for protection and they gradually get this with slow introduction of raw food .freeze pork for 3 days . Wash all meats. Parasites and trichinosis are concerns with pork .dogs with chronic illness or intestinal allergies may not do well on raw. Jax is right about fat content. Remember, the FDA recalled 16 kibble dog foods for causing cardiomyopathy and death. Acana brand was the worse with over 60 cases. The data is pretty solid for feeding raw


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> But what is that loss compared to the whole meal? Including a raw egg ?


I can’t heat a raw egg. It would cook. I am still considering all options. I hope when we get the allergy testing done they will be able to direct me toward the best diet. They seemed very receptive to raw when I made the appointment and they are recommended by my vet who feeds raw. Feeding my male is complicated because he is allergic to chicken, so he might also be allergic to turkey.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@Mvp Thank you! That is very helpful.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I can’t heat a raw egg. It would cook. I am still considering all options. I hope when we get the allergy testing done they will be able to direct me toward the best diet. They seemed very receptive to raw when I made the appointment and they are recommended by my vet who feeds raw. Feeding my male is complicated because he is allergic to chicken, so he might also be allergic to turkey.


Cross allergy to Turkey is likely. Duck is water fowl do just might work


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Cross allergy to Turkey is likely. Duck is water fowl do just might work


Where do I get duck? Seriously, I have never seen it sold anywhere.


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## iamelliot (Sep 20, 2013)

my pure bred german shepher is 11 yrs old now and has been eating raw balanced meals from PRIMAL FOODS..... never gotten sick. he is in great health. i've now added 500mg CBD OIL from Source, sold on Dogs Naturally. i recommend that site to all GSD owners. they always look for non harmful remedies for dog ailments, and promote raw dog feeding. holistic vets write articles for the site magazine. they sell all kinds of products for everything from immune system problems, skin issues, allergies, etc....check them out. you won't be sorry and don't shy away from raw food. try PRIMAL or STELLA AND CHEWY'S....also my dog takes highest quality human grade fish oil, turmeric, chlorella and spirulina. i also top his raw food with sardines(1 per meal) packed in water.
HE'S A HAPPY, HEALTHY CAMPER!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

ausdland said:


> My raw fed dog had colitis and total diarrhea for 8 days, currently on boiled beef and potatoes and transitioning to Freshpet.


 @*ausdland*, as long as you're cooking, save that cooking water for him. When I had to cook meat for my last immune-compromised dog who was also on THK base mix, I used the boiling water from the meat to reconstitute the THK. That way nothing was wasted. 

My vet suggested freezing raw meat in our deep freezer for 2 weeks before feeding -- we can get it colder in the chest freezer than the one in the kitchen, so that's where it stays. Commercial raw has a manufacturing code that can tell you when it was put in their deep freezer, so I use those days in calculating 2 weeks if we're running low. 

Anyone worried about bacteria can also look into high-pressure treated commercial raw. It loses some of the enzymes in regular raw, but it also loses the pathonogenic bacteria. This could be especially important if you have an immuno-compromised, elderly, or infant human in the house since a lot of the CDC's opposition to raw-fed dogs seems to be based on cross-contamination of humans. The commercial raw pet food industry is moving in that direction because the FDA has been on them over salmonella (even though it turns a blind eye to salmonella in kibble).


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Magwart said:


> When I had to cook meat for my last cancer dog who was also on THK, I saved the boiling water and used it to reconstitute the THK. That way nothing was wasted.


I’m doing that. My dogs are now off raw, due to health reasons.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I think a lot of vets don't like raw because they only see the glaring mistakes, while the healthy raw fed dogs without incident are off their radar.

The thing about raw vs kibble. Kibble, if you buy a good brand, and feed the proper amount, is idiot proof. So they see fewer feeding mistakes.

Raw must be researched, must be done properly, and it is easy to make dangerous mistakes if you don't do so. Enter the human without a premade "kit". Mistakes people can make with raw when they do not do their homework:

-Defrost things with bones in the microwave
-Think than ground beef, or chicken parts, with a little liver and gizzards is balanced raw feeding
-Not follow proper ratios and have dogs with very low or high vitamin panels come back. Many do not know what is muscle vs organ vs secreting organ
-Give drumsticks to a dog that habitually swallow them whole (you feel like calling a midwife when you see them trying to pass it) 
-Not handle raw dog meat properly the way they handle raw human meat properly and make people sick (this can happen with kibble too. Most recalls are due to people not washing their hands and getting sick rather than the dogs) 

Done properly, it is fantastic for them. Done poorly they would be better off on Beneful (well, maybe not Beneful..that stuff is awful lol)

I think that is why there is a lot of vet bias. Much smaller margin of human error with quality kibble that they see come through their office. 

My visits usually go like this :

Vet-His fur is like velvet! He smells great! I have never seen such white teeth on a 2 year old! Wow does he have nice muscle! What do you feed him?
Me- raw
Vet- be careful with that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I just met with a specialist who also works ER who said if you see enough dogs die from salmonella or other bacterial infections after eating raw and have to tell their owners their diet killed their dog, I would be against raw too. My younger dog is on a special allergy test diet for three months, so he is going onto a temporary LID kibble diet. I don’t know what will happen after that. My other dog is a cancer survivor and may have a limited immune system, so she is now on raw vegetables and fruit with cooked meat. I am not going to take any chances on her. I’m keeping her on homemade meals because it helped her IBS a lot. I am cooking the meat enough to get rid of surface bacteria.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

@Magwart. Her GI is just finally regulated on Freshpet so going to stick with that until the end of the year. May try Stella and Chewy next year. Not feeding THK anymore. She had a small mammary tumor removed along with her ovaries last year. Don’t want to feed her so many carbs.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I should have added not considering an individual dog's special medical needs. 

I had a JRT that had uncontrollable diabetes at age 9. I wound up homecooking everything for her for the rest of her days. It just worked better and removed the risk of an already out of whack autoimmune system dealing with pathogens they can normally handle no problem.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

CometDog said:


> I should have added not considering an individual dog's special medical needs.
> 
> I had a JRT that had uncontrollable diabetes at age 9. I wound up homecooking everything for her for the rest of her days. It just worked better and removed the risk of an already out of whack autoimmune system dealing with pathogens they can normally handle no problem.


My older dog had bloody vomit and stools intermittently for a year. Out of desperation, I switched to raw 5 months ago and the bleeding stopped. My vet agreed I should try it. The severe vomiting went away. So, I was quite upset at the idea of giving up raw. Then I realized I could modify it to fit her needs. I will never put her back on kibble.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I do believe that cooking meat results in a destruction of taurine which is one of the factors involved in this grain free food debacle. 

I wonder why you never here of any dogs dying from eating raw until you go to some vets. One would think that if that were the case, all vets would have seen it, and through the decades, surely someone's dog would have experienced it in the dog world or on one of the many forums. Not saying it can't or doesn't happen, just saying it seems to be nearly unheard of.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Actually not completely true. I talked to a specialist about the taurine situation. The deathly result is not from a lack of taurine in the diet. It’s from lack of absorption of taurine by the dog. They don’t know if it is due to something missing from grain free diets or something within the dog or both. Obviously if a dog’s diet has no taurine that is suspect, but there are ways for it to be added. I have added taurine to my dog’s diet just to be sure but I am also adding some grains just in case.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

ausdland said:


> @*Magwart*. She had a small mammary tumor removed along with her ovaries last year. Don’t want to feed her so many carbs.


Look into Dr. Harvey's Paradigm. It's more expensive than THK, but it's good stuff (better than Stella & Chewy IMHO), and designed for cancer/diabetic dogs. It's based on some of what KetoPet Sancturary is doing. My only gripe is that it's not as good as THK for anal gland issues, but if your dog doesn't have them, it doesn't matter. KetoPet Sanctuary also gives away their protocol for free in an e-book for those willing to home cook -- it's super-interesting. 

I also really like Dr. Harvey's Solaris AM/PM supplement for cancer dogs -- lots of medicinal mushrooms and anti-cancer herbs. 
https://www.drharveys.com/products/dogs/451-solaris-immune-support-supplement-for-dogs 

Mine has been on it since the melanoma was removed from his eye last year. It's expensive, but I wait for a 20% off coupon code from Only Natural Pet to stock up. 


I should probably also share what my dog's vet oncologists (one in private practice, one researcher at a vet school) said about diet. They literally don't know what to recommend for cancer dogs. The data on carbs and cancer is conflicting and unreliable right now. For a while, avoiding carbs was a firm recommendation and then more research blew up that recommendation....so they aren't making any recommendations either way. KetoPet Sanctuary seems to be the only organization investing significant resources into investigating diet and cancer in dogs, so keeping up with their work is probably helpful.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This explains the taurine issue better than I can. Dogs manufacture it in their own bodies and it’s obtained from meat.

https://www.allthebestpetcare.com/p...ed-cardiomyopathy-dcm-and-taurine-deficiency/


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dogs process 2 specific amino acids, found in their diet, into taurine. People do too. Cats can not. The meat has to be high in taurine itself for them. Interestingly enough, mice have more taurine pound for pound than any other animal. Nature at work.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

So mice don’t get heart attacks?


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Never Cry Wolf was right!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> So mice don’t get heart attacks?


:rofl: I'd say the one bouncing off my front door on very cold February morning trying to get away from my cat was having a heart attack.

I know I was, standing on the enclosed porch in a towel, soaking wet, not able to get back in without letting the mouse in.

Disclaimer: the dogs now have to wait until I'm dressed before I let them out.


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## Mato (Feb 9, 2020)

I’m picking up beef hearts, beef liver and beef kidney from an Asian market. Is it safe to freeze it, defrost it when I’m ready to make everything and divide it into 1 lbs meals. Then, refreeze it again. The rest of the ingredients like ground beef chicken feet and chicken quarters I always do it this way but, this time I have to pick up the organs early. Any advice much appreciated 
Thanks


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

Just a thought...If you are using plastic containers or zip locks just put in the amount of organs that you normally mix in saving some space for the rest of the meats to be added lately when you’ll get those. This way you would not have to defrost it. And later when the whole container will be defrosted it will be easy to mix everything together.
I kind of assumed that you are planning to grind everything.


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