# Help quick, USCA question



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm trying to contact the USCA office for confirmation but I don't think it's open yet so maybe someone here knows the answer...there's a RKNA club near me (Rottweiler Klub of North America) and they are hosting a trial in a few weeks. Johannes Grewe is the judge and he is USCA/SV. I'd like to do a BH and AD. The club says GSDs are welcome but I want to be sure the BH and AD will be recognized by USCA for future titles and breed survey. I am a member of USCA and have an AWDF scorebook, USCA individual registration, SV a-stamps, AKC full registration, and AKC certified 4-gen pedigree for this dog. Am I good?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

If the club is a *UScA Club* (even though a Rottweiler club)...there should be no problem.....at least I certaining don't think there should be.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is there a rule against trialing/showing under the same judge within certain time frame? Or do the conformation shows fall under different ruling? Grewe was the judge in KY, wasn't he?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What do you mean Jane? Pan has no USCA/SV titles so he's never trialed under any judge. I pay very little attention to who is judging what since to date I have never once had the advantage of trialing or showing on a "home" field with my own training group. Since Johannes lives in Michigan he's used a lot in our region. Many clubs use the same judge year after year. As far as I know, Cedar Hill uses Johannes a lot since they have developed a rapport with him. Maybe the same is true with Dan Williams (though I suspect it's just cheaper to use a local judge than the club footing the bill to fly someone in when there's already an SV judge a few hours away).

Anyway, Lisa has answered my question, I can enter my dogs they just won't be in the USCA SchH 3 Club (no matter, since I don't really care about that and Nikon can't be anyway since I use multiple scorebooks with him).


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I can't keep up with the rules...but clubs can't use the same judge year after year-they can use Judge Smith and then Judge Jones and the following year go back to Judge Smith -not that that was related to your question


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not in the club so it doesn't matter to me what judge they use, I'm interested in whether USCA will recognize a title earned outside of a USCA sanctioned trial.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Johannes is NOT an SV judge - he is only UScA....IF - IF IF IF- you want an SV koer, you need an SV judge specifically for the BH/AD....His conformation ratings cannot be used for an SV approved Koer...

Personally - I really prefer SV judges for everything

ALTHOUGH!!! I did do a BH under Jim Elder and AD-Sch1 under SV judges for my old male and still got an SV koer.....but have always been told that the BH & AD should be under an SV judge


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I understand...just saying you can't use the same judge over and over


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lee, I won't SV Koer because Nikon has OFAs (not accepted at the WDA breed surveys) and all the people/clubs I am now training with with Pan are USCA clubs/people. Pan already has an SV conformation rating (from a WDA show), SV dental notation, and SV a-stamps, but beyond that it's just not worth the hassle traveling all over to find SV/WDA trials and doubling up on all the paperwork when I have zero plans to ever show, trial, or breed a dog in Germany.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

holland said:


> I understand...just saying you can't use the same judge over and over


Me or the club? So you are saying a dog cannot trial under the same judge you previously show under?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Clubs have to have at least one trial with a different judge in-between. A competitor can trial under the same judge over and over if they so choose or it just happens to work out that way. 

Titles earned at AWDF clubs (which the Rott club is) count for everthing in USCA except their SchH3/IPO3 club. If you are worried about SV this and SV that then you need to TRIAL under only SV judges or USCA judges that went through the extra SV/USCA program. I think there are also a couple of WDA judges that did this program, but I don't pay much attention to WDA. 

BTW, the working titles (BH, IPO) given out by the USCA and WDA judges who did the special SV program are also recognized for SV breed surveys earned in the USA. That is why they did this.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

No -well actually I don't know about whether a person can trail under a judge that they previously showed under but the club can not use the same judge in a trail the following year-I was referring to a club


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The nice thing about WDA events is that they typically only use SV judges (and I mean judges from Germany). I believe they have a similar program for their own judges but to date I have never attended or entered a WDA event that was not judged by an SV judge/Koermeister from Germany. But, continuing with WDA means doubling up on paperwork that is already costing me hundreds of dollars and there are *no* WDA clubs in this state. There is a paper club (I know because I started it  ) but there are no actual events.

I'm assuming that doing a BH and AD under Johannes is not a problem since I was at an event two days ago where five dogs were breed surveyed by him. I don't care if my titles are recognized outside of the United States or not. If he can hand out breed surveys then his show ratings and titles and whatever must count for something. Nikon is already locked into a USCA breed survey because of the OFA vs. a-stamp idiocy so there's no reason *not* to get his AD over with when it's an hour from my house (as opposed to the nine hours each way this past weekend).


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

as far as you trialing - you can go under the same judge more than once....

IF you get a BH/AD with Johannes - you cannot get an IPO title at any WDA trial from what I understand - while titles earned at other organizations events are accepted they must be under FOREIGN judges - SV or even the Canadian ones which both WDA and UScA accept- neither UScA nor WDA will accept anything done by the others own Judges....If you do a BH under Mike West for example, UScA will not recognize it.

CLUBS must do one approved trial/event per year to maintain club status....and if they use the same judge twice, then need to brting in a different judge to maintain their club's approved status. I do not think that WDA has these requirements.

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Why would USCA not recognize Mike West's title....I thought he was SV approved????
BTW, he was the last Judge I titled under in USCA.....lololol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My understanding of that whole thing is that if you want to *ensure* that the SV *always* recognizes the title, to only show and trial under an SV judge from Germany. For now they will recognize the titles/cards from the "SV approved" judges, but the SV could change that rule and decide to no longer recognize them, whereas there is no risk of them not recognizing their _own _titles/cards.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wolfstraum said:


> CLUBS must do one approved trial/event per year to maintain club status....and if they use the same judge twice, then need to brting in a different judge to maintain their club's approved status. I do not think that WDA has these requirements.
> 
> Lee


Probably not since the WDA doesn't even require clubs to hold events of any kind to maintain their affiliation.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Supposedly, a club can not have the same judge within a calendar year. We have multiple clubs in the Nashville area that use the same judges each year, but it is following the above guidelines.

My understanding is this:

SV Judges - Germany, etc
SVR Judges - UScA judges; SV recognized, for USA only.
SVF Judges - WDA judges; SV recognized, in USA and elsewhere.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Probably not since the WDA doesn't even require clubs to hold events of any kind to maintain their affiliation.


Nope, all you need is an affiliation trial which is just a mock trial.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks Sue....that's what I thought.


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## obxterra (Jul 25, 2009)

Mike West and Wendell Nope have achieved SV Foreign Judge status. So that shouldn't be a problem. 

Based on what I have learned recently, in countries with more than one SV member organization the members of those organizations are to recognized and allowed to compete in the trials of either. In this situation, the UScA and GSDCA are SV member orgs. So, members of either should be able to participate in the activities of either.

Apparently the GSDCA-WDA of which I am a member is affiliated with the GSDCA but not directly an SV member org. For this and other reasons I have joined the GSDCA.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

I would be very cautious as the RKNA is not FCI recognized or a member of the AWDF. 

I would wait to hear back from Nathaniel Roque before counting on this trial for progression.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good point Keith and good catch.

Lies, are you sure Dan's club isn't a member of the USRC? Dan is or used to be a member of both.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Never mind. Just checked the USRC website and there are no clubs in this region at all.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You guys freaked me out good! I messaged Mr. Roque and he says I am OK because of Herr Grewe's status. We are trialing as planned.



> Hi Lies
> 
> It is true that the RKNA is not a FCI or WUSV organization but the gray area is that as long as you are a USCA member , have USCA Scorebooks on the GSD and the title is awarded by a USCAor SV Judge the titles will count for USCa Breed Survey. It is no diofferent than how we have to accept titles awarded by SV Judges at WDA Trials even though the WDA does not officially exist.
> 
> ...


_



_


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Good luck at the trail...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, I giggled at the part about WDA not officially existing.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good to know. We have another club member that is thinking about doing her 3 at that trial. 

Thank you for getting the information, Lies.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As I understand it, this *only* applies because I am already a USCA member with USCA issued scorebooks. Just having a USCA judge issue the title alone isn't enough for USCA to continue to recognize the title, if that makes sense?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I hope that is the case. Would not be good to have to repeat the AD and a pain to have to repeat the BH.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> I'm trying to contact the USCA office for confirmation but I don't think it's open yet so maybe someone here knows the answer...there's a RKNA club near me (Rottweiler Klub of North America) and they are hosting a trial in a few weeks. Johannes Grewe is the judge and he is USCA/SV. I'd like to do a BH and AD. The club says GSDs are welcome but I want to be sure the BH and AD will be recognized by USCA for future titles and breed survey. I am a member of USCA and have an AWDF scorebook, USCA individual registration, SV a-stamps, AKC full registration, and AKC certified 4-gen pedigree for this dog. Am I good?




This is just another UScA boondoggle to bring in a few extra bucks. This is on par with UScA "registration" papers that no one in the world accepts or their "USCA only"scorebooks that no one accepts. 

RKNA, as you have found out is not an AWDF or FCI club. Their titles are not recognized by *ANY* AWDF or FCI club. *INCLUDING USCA!!!!* They can't be recognized because USCA has pushed through a series of rules to try to crush the WDA and now they are getting bogged down in their own cesspool.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"This is just another UScA boondoggle to bring in a few extra bucks. This is on par with UScA "registration" papers that no one in the world accepts or their "USCA only"scorebooks that no one accepts. "

Clarification on the score books. Accepted in all orgs in the US and in Europe.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

The USCA *only* scorebooks are accepted as proof of title but are supposed to be valid at USCA trials only.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm going ahead with the trial. The most important thing is Nikon's AD because he is otherwise ready for a breed survey (show cards (SV), OFAs, BH (SV), SchH1 (USCA) - will be doing a USCA breed survey b/c of the SchH1 title and OFAs, no a-stamps). He should do fine for the AD, we've been biking/jogging every other day and he's in great condition. In all likelihood, Grewe will end up being the judge for his survey anyway. I suppose he could decide not to honor a certification he awarded but if USCA continues to make things even more complicated I wouldn't lose sleep over not doing the survey at all (and saving $150!). I don't plan to compete this dog beyond USCA club trials and the AD doesn't factor in for that anyway, his BH and SchH1 are already valid.

My younger dog had some problems with his feet last weekend so I may have to scratch his AD anyway, but I will do his BH at the RKNA trial. Who knows, passing is not guaranteed! If it ends up being a big deal for the future (like AWDF not recognizing the BH), the USCA club I'm training with and trying to join is having their own USCA trial with Frank judging in June and I'm happy to re-do the BH since he will not be ready for a IPO1 by fall at the earliest and I'm happy to enter my dogs to support the club/trial.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK this is what I have been told by Nathaniel Roque. Since I am a USCA member and this is a USCA judge, the titles will stand. I can earn the IPO titles at USCA trials with USCA or SV judges. Say I title my dog to IPO3 and he's a good dog and we want to enter the WDC or AWDF... we can because my IPO3 title will be at a USCA trial. According to Nathaniel they can't go all the way back and throw out my BH if I was allowed to continue to IPO1, 2....


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

KJenkins said:


> The USCA *only* scorebooks are accepted as proof of title but are supposed to be valid at USCA trials only.


.

Gabor never had any issue in Europe (multiple countries) for any of his WUSV/FCI World team qualifiers, WUSV World Championships, FCI World Championships with either the UScA small book or the AWDF big book.

Just in the last two months:completed at USCA regionals and then over in EU, did a WUSV/FCI World Qualifier last weekend. Same scorebook.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does that refer to the "USCA only" scorebook as in the non-AWDF one you get if your dog is not registered? If so that's not the case for me, I have the AWDF books that are issued by the USCA (my dogs have full AKC registration, certified 4-gen pedigrees, and are both USCA individually registered so we have that pink pedigree from USCA).

Nikon's BH is in his WDA scorebook but I just made a photocopy and folded that in my USCA/AWDF book. It was not an issue at his SchH1 trial (USCA). My friend had the same thing (we trial together) and she glued the photo copy into her scorebook. I can understand not being able to present multiple scorebooks but that's not the same as copying the SV-issued titles into the USCA/AWDF book which so far hasn't been a problem for us.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Smithie86 said:


> .
> 
> Gabor never had any issue in Europe (multiple countries) for any of his WUSV/FCI World team qualifiers, WUSV World Championships, FCI World Championships with either the UScA small book or the AWDF big book.
> 
> Just in the last two months:completed at USCA regionals and then over in EU, did a WUSV/FCI World Qualifier last weekend. Same scorebook.


 
USCA has two types of scorebooks they issue now. One is the USCA AWDF scorebooks for GSDs only. The other is for alternate breeds and/or unregistered dogs that is supposed to be good at USCA trials only.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Keith, that was also my understanding of the two different scorebooks. Vala has the old USA scorebook, but she got hers before they went to the AWDF books. My 3 young dogs have the larger AWDF books.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When I was considering Schutzhund (just tracking and OB) with Kenya I would have gotten the USA only scorebook (for mixed, non-GSD, or unregistered dogs), even though she's a purebred fully registered GSD I didn't want to have to pay for all the extra paperwork to get the full USA/AWDF book.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Liesje said:


> even though she's a purebred fully registered GSD I didn't want to have to pay for all the extra paperwork to get the full USA/AWDF book.


What extra paperwork? When I got Heidi's last year, I just ordered a scorebook, sent a copy of her AKC papers to show she was a registered GSD, and got the USCA/AWDF book for her. No USCA registration or other extra paperwork involved. Has something changed recently?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> What extra paperwork? When I got Heidi's last year, I just ordered a scorebook, sent a copy of her AKC papers to show she was a registered GSD, and got the USCA/AWDF book for her. No USCA registration or other extra paperwork involved. Has something changed recently?


No, nothing has changed. There is no extra fee for a USCA/AWDF scorebook. A person does NOT have to register the dog with USCA to get a scorebook, only to compete in the National Championships.

From USCA website:


_Official scorebooks are required for entry into all USA Sanctioned Schutzhund Trials. Foreign and non U SA issued scorebooks are acceptable only after they have been registered and stamped by the USA Breed Book Office. One scorebook is required for each dog and the scorebook must accompany the dog if the dog obtains a new owner. To receive a scorebook one must submit a scorebook application to the USA Office, please include the following: _
_1 __A photocopy of your current USA Membership Card. _
_2 __Photocopy of the dog’s FCI recognized registration papers must contain the dog’s name, sex, D.O.B., breed and current owner. Individual Registration through the USA Breed Book Office is not required to obtain a scorebook. _
_3 __If the dog has already achieved a Schutzhund rating (including FH, AD, IP, B, etc.) earned at a USA event, send proof of attainment for the last title earned with your application. The scorebook being issued by the USA Office will then record the last titled earned and stamp your scorebook to read “Title on file with the USA Office”. If the dog achieved a Schutzhund rating under a VDH recognized judge, proof of that attainment supplied by the owner will be attached into the back of the USA scorebook being issued. _
_4 __Indicate the dog’s tattoo or micro-chip number. _
_5 __Applicants should send all the above listed information to the USA Office, via US Postal mail, email or fax, please include payment of $10.00 in the form of Visa, MasterCard, money order, cashiers check or personal check. Upon receipt of the application and fee(s) you will then be issued a numbered scorebook for your dog. If this scorebook is lost or destroyed, it may be replaced upon notification made in writing to the USA Office and a $12.50 replacement fee. _


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No registration in my name. I believe I have the registrations from the previous owner, but never paid to update them so #2 wouldn't count (current owner on the papers would not match my membership card). At the time I just wanted to do some trials/titles, not compete nationally so I was fine getting the USA-only scorebook with the dog listed as a mix without current registration since I didn't feel like paying for AKC to change the registration. Instead we did SDA trials since at the time they were part of UKC and the dog was already UKC registered so I didn't have to order any more papers/books.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> OK this is what I have been told by Nathaniel Roque. Since I am a USCA member and this is a USCA judge, the titles will stand. I can earn the IPO titles at USCA trials with USCA or SV judges. Say I title my dog to IPO3 and he's a good dog and we want to enter the WDC or AWDF... we can because my IPO3 title will be at a USCA trial. According to Nathaniel they can't go all the way back and throw out my BH if I was allowed to continue to IPO1, 2....


Nathanial is wrong. No other AWDF club will honor that title, even if you have subsequent other titles. Nor will any FCI club or event. 

Further, whether or not the titles are accepted outside of USCA is not Nathanial's call. That is the call for the AWDF. If you want to find out for sure you should talk to the AWDF secretary. I guarantee you that the answer will be completly different than one you got from USCA.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Fast said:


> Nathanial is wrong. No other AWDF club will honor that title, even if you have subsequent other titles. Nor will any FCI club or event.
> 
> Further, whether or not the titles are accepted outside of USCA is not Nathanial's call. That is the call for the AWDF. If you want to find out for sure you should talk to the AWDF secretary. I guarantee you that the answer will be completly different than one you got from USCA.


I'm not sure that is correct.... Look at WDA titles in the past, WDA is a stand alone organization and is not a member of WUSV or FCI but titles earned at their events by SV judges are recognized everywhere. In the past (before SV recognized of their judges) the WDA only Judges titles were not recognizeed by FCI member orgs, only WDA and SV.

So where are you getting your informatyion from?
I would be interested to see what you are baseing your statement on. 
You make your statement as if it is fact and that the DOJ is wrong. 
So Where are you finding that information? If you are correct I would want to know for myself.

Frank


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Interestingly, the TD of the club hosting the trial is also a director of the AWDF. I will ask for clarification this weekend. At this point, it doesn't really matter either way. The club I'm training with is a USCA club and is having a USCA trial next month, so I can just re-do the BH if it's *that* big of a deal. I am attending their trial anyway to help out and don't have a dog to enter for a full SchH/IPO title so a BH is no big deal. The trial this weekend is probably one I would attend (to photograph) even if I wasn't entered so it's not extra work or travel to attempt a BH there either, plus I need to talk to Herr Grewe about something else. I have a show line dog I would like to survey and continue to show, but have a question about his teeth, so need a judge to look at him for me and this is event is the absolutely closest a conformation judge will ever be near my house.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

schh3fh2 said:


> I'm not sure that is correct.... Look at WDA titles in the past, WDA is a stand alone organization and is not a member of WUSV or FCI but titles earned at their events by SV judges are recognized everywhere. In the past (before SV recognized of their judges) the WDA only Judges titles were not recognizeed by FCI member orgs, only WDA and SV.
> 
> 
> Frank


WDA is a different animal as they are a for all practical purposes part of GSDCA which is a member of the WUSV.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

If you're talking about Williams he isn't a director for the AWDF. In fact he was recently removed as AWDF representative/delegate for the USRC.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep. Web site must be out of date then.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Is RKNA a FCI club?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

"The USA does not have an FCI member club. The USA is not an FCI member country."


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

But, they recognize FCI clubs, judges and titles....


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

KJenkins said:


> WDA is a different animal as they are a for all practical purposes part of GSDCA which is a member of the WUSV.


Actually NO, they are not. They are a completely seperate organization that has a contract agreement with GSDCA to aquire SV judges, period. They are a completely seperate org from GSDCA. "For all practical purposes" does not make them a member of WUSV or FCI, that is why no WDA members can participate in FCI or WUSV events. The WDA members that participate in WUSV MUST be a GSDCA member. Why? Because WDA is not a member and they are seperate orgs. But the titles earned at a WDA event (in the past ) from a SV judge are recognized by all orgs by WDA only Judges were not...Now they are as the WDA Judges ar SV recognized.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> "The USA does not have an FCI member club. The USA is not an FCI member country."


Correct, but Presently, AWDF participates as a guest member at FCI meetings and invitational events. That is why the AWDF sends teams to the FCI Championships and the WUSV is a member of FCI thus USCA judges titles are recognized.


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