# Male neutering and effect on timidity



## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Saw lots of threads on neutering and aggression, etc., but none on my concern. Apologies if I missed the relevant ones.

So, Beau will be 14 months next week and he turned into a major 'project' along the way. He's extremely timid/anxious, hyperactive (if he were human he'd be diagnosed ADHD) which the anxiety contributes to, reactive with other dogs on a leash, the least biddable GSD I've ever known (due at least in part to the anxiety and hyperactivity). I've been working with a trainer/behaviorist for the past several months and he's slowly improving, at least when he's on familiar terrain and in the company of people or dogs he knows, particularly our 10 year old big boy, Duke. He's on prozac and CBD oil treats, which seem to help a bit but, unfortunately, not enough. And, NO, we are not thinking of rehoming him. All this is a major PITA, but he's our PITA and we love him.

So, it's time to think about neutering him. The hormones are starting to flow, god forbid he breeds, and the last thing we need is dominance issues arising with Duke. I know it has little to no effect on aggression, but I wonder if any of you folks have any experience/knowledge about how it affects anxiety and timidity for better or worse. Any feedback would be appreciated.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Breeding or not depends on how you manage him. Most dogs in EU are intact and it's tough to find a nice dog in their shelters, let alone pups. Neutering is not a fix-it-all. Best to hire a good trainer. Forget about vets; they will just tell you to neuter him and their reasons are that basically intact males are breeding obsessed, go into fights etc. If you think he has ADHD, he needs more exercise and things to do that requires using his and your brain. Prozac made my nervous dog worse. Can't you practice some agility that builds up is self esteem? What are the credentials of your trainer/behaviorist? Animal behaviorist requires a degree and is the equivalent to a human psychiatrist, being able to prescribe meds.
Prozac, CBD, neutering seems too invasive to this boy's body. Does he have issues with your older dog? One of my friend's GSD with some behavior issues became dog aggressive after neutering and his behavior issues remained the same.
What was his life like before you got him and at what age?


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

We got him at 8 weeks from a reputable breeder and he became progressively more anxious/timid from (probably - I have no clear recollection of when it 'started') a few months old on. He's in doggie day care (for the exercise and socialization) for 6 hours a day, 3 days a week, and gets plenty of exercise there (he comes home exhausted and sleeps for a few hours). Yes, the prozac required easing him into the correct dosage, but without it my choices are to keep him in a constant heel while walking him or have him flit from one thing to the next every 2 seconds (a leaf blowing!, a bird!, a car passing!, another car!, another leaf! a piece of trash!, a dog!!! and so on pulling all the while) and him plaguing Duke without interruption to play with him for hours (and at 10, Duke really can't be bothered after the first 15 minutes).

To give you some idea of how bad his anxiety is, a neighbor got an 8 week old pug puppy (not much bigger than an adult Chihuahua). He was about 9 months old at the time and I brought him over to introduce him (it was dark out and that may have contributed). He approached, sniffed her, and within 2 seconds bolted away from her to the end of the leash and wouldn't approach her again. All he wanted to do was get away. It was downright embarrassing. Training is helping me manage the problems, but this goes way beyond correcting the problems though training or giving him more exercise. 

He's strongly bonded with Duke and does a little better when I walk them together, which I do after dark due to there being fewer distractions (specifically fewer dogs being walked) for him and so less need to be ready to get him under immediate control. But, he's starting to show his teeth/bark at selected dogs at day care (sometimes without provocation), and Duke deserves better than that starting at home, because there is no way I'm going to crate and rotate Duke (we didn't get Beau for Duke to be unhappy about not being with us) and I'm not going to rehome Beau.

As for the trainer/behaviorist, she seems to know what she's doing and he is getting better very slowly. He'll never be 'normal,' like Duke and our previous shepherds (though our one before Duke also suffered from a degree of anxiety) and I can live with that. I just don't want the timidity/anxiety getting worse, because that is likely fueling the latent (fear-based?) aggression.

edit: In any case, I'm not really asking for help with the problems. That's what i have the trainer/behaviorist for (and we're contemplating going to see a behaviorist at the local university vet school animal hospital). I'm asking for information on the effects of neutering on a timid/anxious dog's timidity.


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## fosterDog (Jan 25, 2021)

I'm not qualified to give professional advice but I do want to say something about that pug puppy story.
If I had a dog behave in such a strange and unexpectedly fearful manner toward a puppy I would seriously start to wonder what sort of experiences my dog was having at that doggy day care.

6 hours a day, 3 days a week of doggie day care. How old was he when he started? And are you absolutely sure there aren't bad experiences there contributing to your dogs anxiety ?


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

It happened a month before he started day care. And it's just the most extreme example of his anxiety. I honestly can't point to anything that 'started" it. It's something he exhibited with strangers who wanted to pet him from a couple of months old on: Approach, sniff, run back, approach, sniff, run back, and so on. He's done the same with empty trash cans. Or, for that matter anything new. The absolute panic with the pug was atypical, but it's part of a consistent pattern.

edit: But now that I think of it, he was doing it at 9-10 weeks old with the neighbor's kids who wanted to pet him while he was in the fenced in back yard where I would take him while house traing him (they approached on the other side of the fence). He would approach them, tail wagging, then retreat, approach again, retreat, and so on. Don't recall them ever getting much of a chance to actually pet or play with him to this day.

edit: I'm pretty sure that if the source was environmental as opposed to genetic, it was during the first 8 weeks of his life.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't know of course if he would behave with a normal built puppy. Pugs bring out weird responses in dogs who don't know them. I can fully understand why. Nothing sounds or looks normal in that breed. One of my Whippets (never shown any sign of aggression to anyone or anything) jumped back growling when a friendly pug approached him.
I would give your dog a week off from daycare and see if that helps any.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

There are some studies showing that neutering seems to increase anxiety in males. (I don't have them at hand but I came accross these while doing my research before neutering my dog).
One thing I remember is that testosterone plays a role in balancing stress hormones...
I was quite concerned about this when I adopted Buck (he's a rescue), because he was VERY leash reactive and a bit anxious of everything (being a garage dog for most of his puppyhood).
Anyway I didn't have a choice as there is a neutering obligation for rescues with this organisation, so he was neutered in August.
Since then we have made tremendous progress, his reactivity is under control and he is an overall happy-go-lucky dog I can take about anywhere with me. He can still be a bit tense in some situations but nothing unmanageable. He loves to work, loves to play and he's just happy about all the time.
His progress is definitely beyond my expectations, he's ways more balanced I thought he would ever be.

So at least for now, I'm not seing any adverse effects of neutering. Had the decision been mine to make though, I would not have neutered that early when he was still in "acute phase" (in August he was still reacting pretty badly in some situations and you could see that his temperament was not set yet if that makes sense/not sure how to put it in English).
My main concern at the time was that creating a hormonal change in his body at this point would have hindered the progress I was starting to see in him (we had been working for a few months already).
It seems that we got lucky... but I personnaly would avoid neutering a dog that is "a mess" emotionnaly. I would try to find the root cause of emotional imbalance, and maybe talk to a hormones specialist (endorcrinology) to make sure that taking the testo levels down is not going to have adverse effects.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you should look for the studies and try to understand them as noted above. Taking away hormones can introduce an imbalance and make behavior worse. And sometimes people note an improvement. So find the studies. Contact the vets that did the studies. Sometimes they answer


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> Breeding or not depends on how you manage him. Most dogs in EU are intact and it's tough to find a nice dog in their shelters, let alone pups.


Do you mean it as "neutering shelter dogs doesn't make them nice"? I'm not sure I undertand what you're saying here but it makes me think of the main bias to these "neutering studies" (not knowing which populations we are talking about)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Do you mean it as "neutering shelter dogs doesn't make them nice"? I'm not sure I undertand what you're saying here but it makes me think of the main bias to these "neutering studies" (not knowing which populations we are talking about)


I meant that despite most males and females being intact, doesn't mean that there is random breeding going on in there (NL) because most people are responsible enough to contain the love-deprived dogs


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I would try to find the root cause of emotional imbalance, and maybe talk to a hormones specialist (endorcrinology) to make sure that taking the testo levels down is not going to have adverse effects.


Thanks for the info: 1 pro point & 1 con. Lots to think about. I'll try to locate the studies
Interesting suggestion. Thanks also for that. I'll look into it. Nothing would please me more than correcting the underlying problem to a degree.


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your advice/experiences. The most recent legit study published in a legit scientific journal (PLoS One. 2018; 13(5): e0196284) that I found concludes that lower exposure to what the authors call "percentage lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones (PLGH)" in males tends to increase anxiety (as well as some other undesirable behaviors), which either confirms what Chloe&buck heard/read or is the same study. Since his anxiety is the root cause of all of Beau's behavioral problems, including his lack of attention span, compulsive licking of anyone petting him, and all the other things I didn't specifically list, neutering is definitely out as a solution. I guess investigating endocrinology is the next step and/or maybe asking about a stronger anti-anxiety medicine than prosac to see if that helps. I've been hesitant to do the last because of the difficulty in getting him onto the prosac (reduced appetite for first few weeks, etc.), but I guess there's no way around it.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Hi Michael, yes that's probably that same study 
I'm going to sound weird here but did you try "exhaution-therapy"? (don't look, I just made it up ^^ lol)
I know good exercice and physical exhaustion can work wonders on anxiety, as I use it for myself and often also for the dogs I foster that are overexcited or having a hard time to adjust.
Just get all of that steam out you know, and then you have a tired wobbly dog and there's no more fuel for anxiety. In this tired/wobbly state, your dog won't react with the same intensity, and sometimes you can build this on.
But not "exciting"/mind-puzzling activities like day care (I understand that doggy day care in the US means that your dog is in a free area with many other dogs, is that correct ?), more like pure physical exercise (running, walking with a backpack, etc.)
Hope that makes sense.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

(I mean you can use that tired/relaxed state to help your dog crate new habits)


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, your understanding of how (at least Beau's) daycare works is correct, and in fact he's particularly wound up when I walk him on the way back from daycare (manifest particularly as regards his barking at passing cars, which is pretty much under control now at other times). 

The problem with your your suggestion is that I'm in my mid 70's, retired now (and yes, this is the last thing we wanted with what is in all likelihood our last dog-size dog - our personal definition of what size a dog should be), and my running days are long over. One of our neighbor's kids (in her late teens) has in fact asked if she could take him on her daily runs, but I've put off answering affirmatively for a good while now because Beau's recall is still totally unreliable. He will even ignore taking treats for obeying "leave it" when focused on that something (car, bird, dog, etc.) in his mind even if he's no longer eyeing it, and quite frankly I'm afraid of what might happen if he gets away from her (he can pull very hard and suddenly). Yes, he's chipped and all, but his propensity to lunge at moving cars is a recipe for disaster if he gets away from her. Like I said in the first post. He's a project.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Neutering won't help. 
But I live with an anxious dog. So I want to mention something that @Jax08 brought to my attention when Punk was younger.
Read up on stress, and what it does.
I am a responsible dog owner. I walked my dog, I socialized my dog. I was hurting my dog, and didn't know it. 
I was forcing her to live in a state of constant fear and anxiety. And the training was progressing at a snails pace.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What actually happens when he is at daycare? Are these issues only with you at home?


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

@Sabis mom, Did searches for both Jax08+anxiety (151 results) and +stress (326) and don't know what needle to look for in that haystack. Do you happen to recall the basics of what was said? I assume it was something along the lines of the anxiety is stress related. If so, I wonder what's causing the stress.

Other than the compulsive licking of any hand petting him, he seems pretty relaxed at home (and yes, the licking indicates anxiety).


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stress releases chemicals in the body that can take days to wear off. By forcing my dog out of her comfort zone daily I was forcing her to live under constant stress. I kept her strictly at home for a long time and the difference was night and day. When we started walking again I only took her out every few days to allow her to relax inbetween.
I suspect the daycare is very stressful for your boy and is actually causing the behaviour you are trying to stop.


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

@Bearshandler There's an indoor area they are free to roam and play in, or just take a nap. Also a larger outdoor area where they can run and play in. The staff do a little bit of basic training (sit, stay sort of stuff). From what i can see, he's actually more relaxed at home and in the immediate neighborhood, in that he will be skittish with both new dogs and new staff at daycare (we get daily reports).


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Interesting possibility about the daycare. May try taking a break there. The only issue I see here is that the behavior predates the daycare, though it could certainly be making it worse.


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## fosterDog (Jan 25, 2021)

michaelr said:


> @Bearshandler There's an indoor area they are free to roam and play in, or just take a nap. Also a larger outdoor area where they can run and play in. The staff do a little bit of basic training (sit, stay sort of stuff). From what i can see, he's actually more relaxed at home and in the immediate neighborhood, in that he will be skittish with both new dogs and new staff at daycare (we get daily reports).


This is really interesting.
I have a few of reactions to this.. firstly the thought of someone else giving my dog commands makes me very uncomfortable. My dog listens only to me.

With the skittish behavior it sounds like your dog doesn't trust the staff, doesn't trust the other dogs, and likely feels alone and vulnerable without you.
What Sabis mom said sounds relevant. This is probably the highest stress environment your dog is in all week.

What you have described to meis a high anxiety dog, particularly nervous and distrustful of other dogs.
I don't believe a dog like that belongs at doggie day care, I don't think he is enjoying himself there.

You received a young puppy with heightened anxiety levels that have gotten progressively worse over the course of a year.
In order to makes those problems better you need to have more control over the dogs life experiences and more consistency in how those experiences play out.

A dog walker or runner sounds perfect! You can use a prong collar on your dog and tie the leash around her wrist and then that will ensure that he cannot bolt after a car and get ran over.
I would want to walk with her a few times and watch them together and make sure she knows how to use the collar properly.

Having a consistent dog walker that the dog can get used to and familiar with is way better than rotating staff at a doggie day care. and being on home property is way more comfortable too.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

michaelr said:


> @Bearshandler There's an indoor area they are free to roam and play in, or just take a nap. Also a larger outdoor area where they can run and play in. The staff do a little bit of basic training (sit, stay sort of stuff). From what i can see, he's actually more relaxed at home and in the immediate neighborhood, in that he will be skittish with both new dogs and new staff at daycare (we get daily reports).


I would stop the daycare. I’m not a fan of my dog meeting other dogs without me now, and I definitely wouldn’t want it in your situation. There’s a good chance that some of dogs that yours meet are bullying him and I don’t know that I expect a lot of random people to recognize some of the subtle signs of this. Even if the daycare isn’t actually making this worse, I don’t think it is helping.


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

The thing I failed to mention is that he loves it there. He whines and carries on when he knows he's going, would pull if I let him to get to the door to enter once we get close, and happily goes right in once it's open (and equally happily greets me when I pick him up).


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

From all that's been said I would definitely stop daycare.
I would not allow "force-petting" either (if he's anxious when people pet him, maybe he has been touched too much in situations or by people he was not comfortable with?)
Actually, even though I don't have particularly anxious dogs, I'm not a big fan of these crowded environnements.
I would be concerned it could create problematic behaviors for lack of supervision/moderation. For instance, with Buck who has a quite strong herding instinct, I know that I shouldn't let him "herd" other dogs too much or get too intense watching/chasing. But most other people would just be like "oh he's playing, no problem".
There are things you can only manage correctly when you know your dog.

About exercising, one thing that has really helped me get some steam out of excited tank-dogs is _bikejoring, but _with an S shape attachment that goes on the side (not the one where the dog is at front). (like the Dogrunner attachment)
Mine proved very sturdy and the spring really absorbs any traction, which means you don't loose your balance even if the dog lunges.
And it's super easy for the human, you can even just let the dog pull when you're tired 
Water activities are also amazing... 
Anyway, my point is I would look for ways to exercise Beau in a way that's healthy for his mind, so not in daycare mode when everyone goes crazy and does his own thing, but in a much more peaceful environnment where and through cooperation with you, as a team.
You may consider letting him carry a weighed backpack for instance (a friend of mine has a hyper dog and that's part of how she manages him on the walk)and give him a job to do while walking, like fetching or carrying something.


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, I think that stopping might be wise also. 

About the petting though, he only allows people he trusts to touch him (skitters back from others), but licks the hands of the ones he does trust if he can reach it, like for example when I rub his cheek or chest when he comes over for attention (and he tries but can't reach and quickly gives up when I rub his belly, which he's rolled over to solicit me to do).


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I had a male rescue neutered at 3 years of age. He was a strong, confident dog, and that didn't change. The only thing that changed was he no longer insisted on scent-marking the counter at the vet's office every time we visited! 

Your dog sounds like one I rehomed due to her extreme timidity. She, too, bolted away when a small puppy approached her. The timidity was GENETIC and there was no fixing it. It took 5 weeks at a weekly training class before she overcame her anxiety enough to take a treat from me An additional 3 weeks went by before she would take one from the instructor.

Agility did boost her confidence a bit, - she loved tunnels because she could hide in them, and she was very smart and quick to learn.

As for the reactivity, I'd start working with him at home, and get him to focus ON YOU - ONLY on you. Tell him 'look at me', and when he does, treat. Practice until he can do this while walking beside you. Then, go outside, and start adding distractions. Every time his focus changes, get him to look at you. Watch closely, and intervene as soon as you see his eyes wander. If he refuses, correct with a leash snap.

I did this successfully with a dog-aggressive, very reactive dog, and had great success with it. I soon had the dog lying 8 ft. away from another reactive dog, with both dogs behaving themselves! It's all about building that bond of trust. and teaching the dog you are there to protect him from whatever is making him anxious. But no, you are never going to make this dog into a strong, confident dog, and it's going to take lots of time and patience to get improvement.

Edit: you also need to get this dog to stop pulling! You can use the treats for that, too. I'm sure someone here can give you some good links on teaching loose leash walking. If the dog is walking out in front of you, you do NOT have control, and the dog is paying no attention to you. Getting him under control will lessen his anxiety, and yours!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The problem with anxiety is that it feeds on itself.
Shadow would get herself so worked up that she was vibrating. Drooling and to afraid to move. 
Even if he likes the daycare chances are that over the day it gets more and more overwhelming.
On the petting thing. Don't let people approach him or touch him. At all. I tell people Shadow is shy and if they want to meet her then it goes her way or not at all. I talk to them while Shadow sits off to the side or behind me, often with her back to them. When she is ready she will approach and sniff at legs and feet. Then she sniffs hands. Then they can pet her. Gently and nicely. That is what works for her, she put it together not me. Once she knows people she's a suck and a mooch.
But you need to respect the dog you have and if he is anxious then help him find ways to cope.


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