# A Question about the purpose and intent of ScH?



## codmaster

If a ScH dog is truly being trained in protection - why would the training be so sleeve oriented to the point where the dog (in the local club that i am in now) is trained to be pretty much oriented to the sleeve (even when the helper sheds the sleeve and the dog then runs off the field or sometimes just carries it around the field)?

Is it simply more of a game now than true protection work?

Would a ScH trained dog be more (or less if the perp doesn't have a sleeve on) or less likely to really protect the owner?

I am assuming with this question that the dog itself has the courage to fight and is not shy or soft or a spook, of course.



I have recently returned to ScH after an absence from it for over 25 years and it just seems much much different. I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work


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## llombardo

codmaster said:


> I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work


I think that during the evaluation process they watch for things that would make a good candidate. I know when we went for ours they watched how she was with other dogs, people, prey drive, etc. While I was having a conversation with one of the women there, she told me that years ago this sport was the test for temperament...I don't know how true that is.


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## cliffson1

:thinking::thinking::thinking:


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## carmspack

codmaster look at this thread -- http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ning/196238-question-experienced-helpers.html

and go back and find posts by Anne Kent - VANDAL - who describes dogs from days gone by who would act just like "Journey" .


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## robk

Not all dogs are the same. Nor are they trained the same. Some dogs would just as soon carry your arm or leg off the field but they are still only allowed to carry the sleeve.


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## wolfstraum

In most clubs that I have been in/to, dogs are 1. genetically programmed to be "prey monsters" and 2. trained all in prey - 

it falls to the handler/owner to either correct the training (and good luck with THAT in many clubs!!!) to test the dog. Personally, my female would spit out and go over the sleeve to the helper who felt this was a problem to correct....we did teach her to work in prey on that helper....but it did not change her genetics, and as an older dog, worked on a few Czechs, Dean C., Marcus, Bob, and other experienced helpers, it is obvious that she has true social aggression and strength.....

Thus, it falls to the breeder to understand what he sees, and breed selectively to bring the upcoming litter into balance. 

But the 'extreme prey' dogs are what is highly sought for sport by most, and thus the IMO downward spiral of temperament and nerves 

Unfortunately, too many dogs, especially those who are "high sport" dogs have no real social aggression.....the extreme prey exhibited by many sport dogs is what you have genetically....and those are the winning lines, the popular lines....as a buyer, esp a novice, these are the dogs and kennels that recommended constantly and IMO this is an issue that is just as much a black hole for the breed as the lack of courage in the show lines and the lack of everything work oriented in the ASL. 

There are dogs out there who have and will pass on social aggression. Chuck Dorneberger Bach is a prime example....I have seen several of his progeny from a female of my own breeding who is a mostly prey dog.....they are much more balanced in aggression/prey than average. 

As with everything - the letters after the name do not mean anything without knowledge of the dog's character.

Lee


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## Liesje

You'd have to ask each individual trainer or club, I suppose. I don't always train my dogs with sleeves so I guess I can't really answer your questions. I train to bite what is presented and in SchH that's an arm but without a sleeve they've bitten armpits, collar bones, and arms (from front or back). The only thing I don't encourage is leg bites, I just don't like that even though in other sports that's all a dog is trained to bite. I don't know why someone would train a dog to only care about a sleeve and call it "protection".


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## msvette2u

> I don't know why someone would train a dog to only care about a sleeve and call it "protection".


That's what it seems like takes place, at least the club/s local to me. 
I can't see how this applies to real life scenarios. It seems like a game that the dog likes, so they do it.


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## carmspack

I have found this to be true "In most clubs that I have been in/to, dogs are 1. genetically programmed to be "prey monsters" and 2. trained all in prey - 

it falls to the handler/owner to either correct the training (and good luck with THAT in many clubs!!!) to test the dog"

ah me, so true "....but it did not change her genetics, and as an older dog ----- it is obvious that she has true social aggression and strength.....:" this is exactly what shone the light on a certain dogs' power and clear mind -- a decoy who knew and loved "those" kinds of dogs and then impressed all by the intensity , yet immediate recovery of the dog to a neutral zone .

second this "But the 'extreme prey' dogs are what is highly sought for sport by most, and thus the IMO downward spiral of temperament and nerves " 

Wolfstraum is on a roll , this is not the first time these ideas have been presented by she, myself , Anne the Vandal . "
Unfortunately, too many dogs, especially those who are "high sport" dogs have no real social aggression.....the extreme prey exhibited by many sport dogs is what you have genetically....and those are the winning lines, the popular lines....as a buyer, esp a novice, these are the dogs and kennels that recommended constantly and IMO this is an issue that is just as much a black hole for the breed as the lack of courage in the show lines and the lack of everything work oriented in the ASL. "

Let me add another dilema arising out of the extreme prey type dog that looks so impressive for their speed -- these dogs also get chosen by many a police department , they do test out well , and the prey and the ball drive relied on for motivation are "over the top" . Problem is that with this we also see a big drop in the dog doing public relations , ability to work in close quarters , crowds , schools etc, wrongful bites, not capping, and I believe a foreshortened working career because of stresses to health and overall longevity. 

true "That's what it seems like takes place, at least the club/s local to me. 
I can't see how this applies to real life scenarios. It seems like a game that the dog likes, so they do it."


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## msvette2u

So dogs that are expected to bite for a living so to speak, for a Police Dept., for instance, how does their training differ so they are sure-fire biters, that will bring down the bad guy?


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## wolfstraum

personally - have seen ALOT of police dogs who could NOT pass a schutzhund test! Frontal bites, no control, screaming meemies with no clarity....brokers bring them in by the dozens and sell them to departments.....the training is often the blind leading the blind....if they run and bite, that is all that is required....I worked a few times with a group of LE, as they wanted to do titles on their K9s -- and they were totally dismayed by the off lead work, the control and the ability to out a trained sport dog....LOL they all offered to buy both of mine, and one who did alot of breeding wanted a pup from Csabre....but they did not want to do the work required to get the control....

A few LE officers I do know are really into scent work and ob and do a great job.....but there is no consistancy in what departments want or get....

interestingly - some of the video I have seen lately where K9s are being utilized have had WGSL dogs as K9s....

Overall - I am not impressed with the majority of K9s I have seen....seems that alot of sport dog washouts are dumped to brokers for resale....

Lee


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## mycobraracr

wolfstraum said:


> Overall - I am not impressed with the majority of K9s I have seen....seems that alot of sport dog washouts are dumped to brokers for resale....
> 
> Lee


I have seen this as well. Dogs that couldn't make through a schH 1 were sold to Police Departments. I have seen everything else you said as well. No control, they needed an E-collar to out the dogs. I have also seen one of our helpers chase a K9 off the field. If you think about it, most bad guys are not trying to fight/confront the dog. They are running away (prey) or are hiding. 

To the OP, if you're unhappy with the style of training at your current club, then find a new one. Most important to me is that my dog is real. Scoring points on a feild is very low on my scale of things.


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## lhczth

Our club does a temperament test when new dogs come out. It isn't a specific test. We just watch the dog/puppy interact with the club members, around other dogs, and then do some other testing. If more needs to be done then the tester isn't very good. 

Anyone competing at the top levels in SchH/IPO are not looking for extreme prey dogs. They want balanced dogs that show good aggression in the blind and guarding plus power when on the bite. Yes, the full calm grip comes from prey, but the power and hardness comes from aggression/fight. Then most need crazy ball drive for obedience (because of the way most train with the ball lure). At least this is the way it is with the people I train with. An extreme prey dog is not as easy to train or get the points with in protection. 

Much of the problem is the training and the mindset of many people (and judges) now training in IPO. Once we started being PC and trying to justify SchH by calling it a game and then turned it into just another sport for people to do with their dogs (no matter how weak the dog) we started on this downward spiral. There are also not a lot of helpers that have any idea how to work dogs anymore. They only know how to play games. They literally bore the good dogs to death. 

Anyhow, Codmaster, not all clubs are like what you are seeing (I have heard this is a huge issue in CA, btw). There are still some of us that believe in a strong balanced dog that can do more than just sport.


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## Vandal

The problem I find most often. is the mentality that exists. Not only are the dogs different but the mentality of the trainers as well. It is exceptionally difficult to try to change people's minds about how SchH should be conducted. They are convinced and believe strongly in much of the things we considered to be completely wrong, years ago. "Serious dogs can't do SchH", "they will lose points" and so on. That is simply not true but the problem started years ago when people didn't know how to train those types of dogs. They always did too much, pushing dogs into defensive behaviors and then beat them up trying to control them. The lack of balance fell to the other side of the equation. In the early 80s, prey work was introduced but hardly anyone understood what it was about. How much of it to use and what it was REALLY for. 

A few days ago, someone asked what the carry in SchH was for. The one who did the best job of answering was Lies, who happens to have a dog who takes the work more seriously. Still, some things were left out but really, that was the first time I have seen people even get close to explaining it. Most view it like the dog having his "reward" and showing off with it. That thinking has helped to lead us where we are now. The term game is used to explain why SchH is safe. For me, that makes NO sense whatsoever. You teach your dog to play by biting someone? Nope. doesn't make sense and IMO, that explanation will eventually doom SchH. There are so many LEGITIMATE reasons for what SchH used to be but I guess not many really understand what those reasons are, just as they don't understand prey work . Worse yet, they do not understand DOGS and especially the GSD. Try asking your helper what he saw in your dog when he worked him. Most don't even notice how hard the dog is biting, nor do they notice the dogs reactions. They are simply going through the motions. 

What I see at clubs now, are many dogs who are not at all suited to work in protection. One club I have been to, the helper admits that not one dog in the club is suited. Of course, that makes sense because the entire activity has been lowered to this somewhat ridiculous level. I know there are people who try to do it right but I know from talking to many of them, who ask me for help, that it is very difficult to achieve because of what I said above.
I've said it before, when you make something like SchH into an activity that appeals to the "general public", you will cause big problems and that is what I see in my area. I seriously doubt it is different elsewhere. 

One poster some time back stated that you can show your serious dog in SchH and maybe people will learn to appreciate them. It was meant as an insult but what he failed to consider is what I said above. WHO is going to help you train that dog? You need a HELPER in SchH and if you have a dog like this, you sure can't work them yourself. They simply do not understand that, it is not in their genetics. The skill and ability to read a dog like this is going away and VERY few understand how to project the right "image" to the dog. The dogs are drilled in the routine which creates bored dogs who do not work in drive. How is that fixed? By breeding dogs with low thresholds for excitement.

There were never many good helpers but there used to be some. Now, it is more about feeding the sleeve, teaching the dog to pull away from the helper when the stick is shown, ( what I consider to be an avoidance behavior), and then this stuff of teaching them to stop the helper. Sure, you should reinforce the dog's power but teaching the dog to pull ALL THE WAY around the back of the helper to make it "appear" that he is a really strong dog, for me, is farcical. 

I have worked dogs as the helper for over 35 years and I am very good at it because I read, see and notice what the dogs are doing while I am working them.I know how to play the part. What I see now is dogs who will bite a sleeve but what I don't see is much heart and determination in those dogs. How they work is almost completely different. It doesn't even have to be a case where it is all about that sleeve, the other behaviors are quite evident. I remember dogs CLEARLY who , when you showed them threatening body language, would get better, stronger and would almost stubbornly stay in front to fight with you. They would counter naturally when the stick came and it simply was not a case where they could not out because of that. They had that ability because they were so solid. Now, if you fight with the dog, many will move out of the front to avoid the heat. I don't see that same determination in their eyes, I see some confusion as if they are saying...."why are you not playing with me?" Yeah, there are some really driven dogs who want to possess that sleeve and will hang in there longer but it is a completely different look and what I feel in the sleeve is different as well. Mostly things remain the same, no fight, no harder grip, no pushing INTO the helper, just hang there, endure long enough or pull like heck away from the helper and this sleeve will be mine. That's not protection, nor is it a display of character or a dog who could really do protection .

We used to see many more dogs who had the heart, courage, fortitude, whatever you want to call it, to take on the MAN. Now we mostly see dogs who will only take on a sleeve. Mostly nowadays, I work dogs by trying to bring out their aggression and fight. I will push them into defense for a very brief time to try to get to it. Because of the training that tends to pave over what we really want to see in the dogs, I have to resort to this kind of work much more often than I used to. We would do this once in a while ,years ago, as well. Tie a dog to a fence and challenge him, leaving fight the only way out. One time was enough to wake a dog up and you never did it over and over. If the dog did not respond, he was not for SchH. The response from the good ones was something to see. I might be able to bring up some aggression in the dogs now but it is not the same at all.

A few years back I remember people making comments about dogs they would watch in obedience and would predict that they would be very good in protection and vice versa. They were indeed noticing something. However, because obedience has taken over as being the easiest way to impress spectators or win trials, those dogs who have the high aptitude for "obedience", ( which it really isn't, it is mostly behaviors rewarded with prey items), are selected over the more powerful, tougher dogs with better nerves who are not as excited about working for toys. They could look very good with other training methods though but now, there is a mentality about food and toy rewards, so, people don't understand how to train these types of dogs. 

I have done SchH so long, there is nothing else I would really want to do with my dogs. The problem is now, there is no place to do it. Not one of the 20 or so clubs in my area are doing SchH but they will argue with me that they are. They will tell tales about what SchH used to be without having a CLUE, having never been there. They will claim the dogs are so much better now, having never seen the dogs from years ago. Yeah, not all of it was pretty, JUST LIKE NOW. But, there is no denying the quality of those very good dogs that so many SchH trainers point to in their pedigrees! 

Yep there were nervy dogs then, there were dogs not suited but you could NOT do SchH with them. Not because it was not allowed by the people, ( although that was mostly the case), it was because SchH would eliminate them. They could not take on a man, so, they would fail. They could not pass. Now, most of the time, they can.


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## wolfstraum

I haven't been in this nearly as long as Anne.....I haven't seen the 'old' school personally....but I sure have seen what she has seen in training and clubs....

When my dog is guarding on a small, non threatening helper, and a big imposing guy (who she has worked on) walks up behind her....and she redirects....I get told she is not good??? She should stay focused on the SLEEVE???!!! HUH????? Something is wrong with the whole perception of the training....this dog understands the imminent threat of the man....I could not trial the dog on anything less than a strong helper....

Anyway - I totally agree with Anne's post.....I have seen a few good dogs - but most dogs I have seen are prey monsters who would bark at a sleeve on the ground while the bad guy takes out a baseball bat to beat them with!

Breeding like to like does not help the breed at all.....but people want those lines and it is a vicious circle....

Lee


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## codmaster

carmspack said:


> codmaster look at this thread -- http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ning/196238-question-experienced-helpers.html
> 
> and go back and find posts by Anne Kent - VANDAL - who describes dogs from days gone by who would act just like "Journey" .


 
Thanks - VERY interesting thread. Esp. the 2nd half of it.

One question about "drives" - I would assume that a dog is never all in one drive but a combination of them? I.E. can a dog in protection work be acting out of Prey and Defense at the same time? When the helper comes running at the handler - maybe a combination of defense for itself and also for the handler?


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## Wolfgeist

Lee... Anne... exceptional information and insight. Thank you.


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## msvette2u

> but most dogs I have seen are prey monsters who would bark at a sleeve on the ground while the bad guy takes out a baseball bat to beat them with!


This is what I've noticed, too, watching some of the videos people post. The dog is only amped up over the sleeve. 

To me, that translates into "fun game" but nothing that applies to real life, unless the intruder wears a sleeve when he comes to break in or rape you.
And even then, it'll just be a nice game of tug-o-war!


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## mycobraracr

Anne, Have you been to a helper seminar recently? It is pathetic! It is all about being a trial helper, not about a training helper. Those are very different things. Trial helper- Don't look the dog in the eyes and... the term helper means to make the dog look good and so on. I was told at one point that I was running too fast on the escape bite and it made it hard for the dog to catch me. I'm no sprinter so maybe it was just a lazy dog. The funny thing was is that I out ran the once, but after that the dog was all over me. It wasn't going to let me get away again. Some of the dogs out there really want to be pushed/challenged. So I understand that it is hard to find a good helper. This is what we are taught. I decided to travel to different clubs and work with different judges and all it did was confuse the crap out of me on what they are actually looking for in the dogs. After the last trial I went to last month I have decided to leave SchH and try another sport. I'm sure there will be some similar problems but I'm hoping for the best.


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## codmaster

lhczth said:


> Our club does a temperament test when new dogs come out. It isn't a specific test. We just watch the dog/puppy interact with the club members, around other dogs, and then do some other testing. If more needs to be done then the tester isn't very good.
> 
> Anyone competing at the top levels in SchH/IPO are not looking for extreme prey dogs. They want balanced dogs that show good aggression in the blind and guarding plus power when on the bite. Yes, the full calm grip comes from prey, but the power and hardness comes from aggression/fight. Then most need crazy ball drive for obedience (because of the way most train with the ball lure). At least this is the way it is with the people I train with. An extreme prey dog is not as easy to train or get the points with in protection.
> 
> Much of the problem is the training and the mindset of many people (and judges) now training in IPO. Once we started being PC and trying to justify SchH by calling it a game and then turned it into just another sport for people to do with their dogs (no matter how weak the dog) we started on this downward spiral. There are also not a lot of helpers that have any idea how to work dogs anymore. They only know how to play games. They literally bore the good dogs to death.
> 
> Anyhow, Codmaster, not all clubs are like what you are seeing (I have heard this is a huge issue in CA, btw). There are still some of us that believe in a strong balanced dog that can do more than just sport.


Thanks - VERY informative.

I have no problem with the ScH training in the club as long as I look at it as a sport (game?) - like a big extreme game of Tug! And i was glad that my dog (US show line male with no ScH for at least 5 gen back!) actually did very well with it - good bite and good enthusiasim for the sleeve but a couple of other dogs from the same top show kennel had no enthusiasm for the sport at all. And there was not a hint of a courage test to begin the training so i was curious.

Obviously the way we do it here is not the original of a breeding test for dogs to pass - just a fun sport.

It was interesting though when I had someone take a picture of my dog while he had a firm bite on the sleeve and the helper was petting him on top of his furry head! And then as soon as we finished with the bite work and the helper comes off the field, my dog was nothing but friendly with him.


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## carmspack

simple things in language even -- the first time I heard it I had no idea what they were talking about -- the sleeve was referred to as "the pillow" , since then have heard it a few times --


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## llombardo

lhczth said:


> Our club does a temperament test when new dogs come out. It isn't a specific test. We just watch the dog/puppy interact with the club members, around other dogs, and then do some other testing. If more needs to be done then the tester isn't very good.
> 
> .


This is what they did with my dog and they were able to give me answers as soon as the evaluation was over. Mine was the last one, so I was able to see some really good dogs.


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## cliffson1

As someone who has trained with police since 1971, and been a policek9 officer, and still train with police, this is a very interesting thread. One thing is for sure, things are a lot different from what they used to be.


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## onyx'girl

I wish IPO had more components of the KNPV style of training and trialing. Though the dogs and handlers that aren't mentally or physically able to do the exercises will wash out fairly early.


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## msvette2u

onyx'girl said:


> I wish IPO had more components of the KNPV style of training and trialing. T*hough the dogs and handlers that aren't mentally or physically able to do the exercises will wash out fairly early.*


I don't see this as a bad thing...?


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## onyx'girl

exactly(though handlers with physical issues shouldn't be dismissed due to their limitations)
KNPV is more physical for both however.


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## Liesje

msvette2u said:


> That's what it seems like takes place, at least the club/s local to me.
> I can't see how this applies to real life scenarios. It seems like a game that the dog likes, so they do it.


Again I can't answer this because I don't believe I train with such a club (well maybe a few people are just doing it "for fun" but overall the philosophy of the club and how the helpers are working is *not* just playing a tug game). I take it seriously and have done some "double blind" scenarios with my dog at various clubs I've trained with. He's been worked on sleeves (right, left, and both at once), bite suits, nothing at all (agitation work and no biting), worked indoors, tossed around in hay, finding a helper in the woods, helper agitating him in the vehicle, having to go over obstacles to get to the helper, etc. We don't always train with a sleeve and very rarely train trial exercises (only right before a trial and his last SchH trial was Nov 2011). I've done a lot of SDA protection with my dog as well, haven't done much lately but about a year and a half ago that's *all* I was doing with my dog. We did a decoy certification seminar and he was one of the dogs used on the decoys being tested and ended up getting worked by seven different people on a very hot day because the other dog we brought (a national level SchH3 dog) was barking at a pile of sleeves and ignoring a frontal attack from the decoy who was trying to work him.

For some people all they want is a "game". I don't see the point in that and that's not how I train or have helpers work my dog but it's a free country so I guess if that's how people want the sport to be, there's nothing I can do about that.


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## lhczth

No, unfortunately we can only control what we do, but when we can't find helpers to work our dogs that know how to actually work our dogs and not play games, it does get discouraging.


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## lhczth

mycobrarcr, most of the seminars out there are to train trial helpers. That is the purpose of the USCA helper program. The passive helper nonsense is fairly new. Stupid since a person being held by an aggressive barking would not be staring into space. 

Anyhow, I don't know what part of the country you are in, but the helper is there to help the judge test the dogs and not to help the dogs (well, unless we are talking........ no, I'll be good) pass. Our club has a National level helper (actually there are two of them only 20 miles apart for us to work on) who has out run dogs on the escape and no judge at any of the events he has worked (club trials up to Nationals) has told him that he is too fast and needs to slow down or that his stick hits need to be softer. Most of the judges want to hear those stick hits and have no problems failing the dogs that don't have enough drive to catch him on the escape. Yes, the helpers need to be fair and most hate having a dog do badly because they themselves made a mistake, but they, at least the ones I know, are not out there to make it easy on the dogs. 

As far as training work, clubs need be willing to bring in helpers and many helpers need to get over their egos and realize that there actually might be someone out there that can teach them something.


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## mycobraracr

lhczth said:


> mycobrarcr, most of the seminars out there are to train trial helpers. That is the purpose of the USCA helper program. The passive helper nonsense is fairly new. Stupid since a person being held by an aggressive barking would not be staring into space.
> 
> Anyhow, I don't know what part of the country you are in, but the helper is there to help the judge test the dogs and not to help the dogs (well, unless we are talking........ no, I'll be good) pass. Our club has a National level helper (actually there are two of them only 20 miles apart for us to work on) who has out run dogs on the escape and no judge at any of the events he has worked (club trials up to Nationals) has told him that he is too fast and needs to slow down or that his stick hits need to be softer. Most of the judges want to hear those stick hits and have no problems failing the dogs that don't have enough drive to catch him on the escape. Yes, the helpers need to be fair and most hate having a dog do badly because they themselves made a mistake, but they, at least the ones I know, are not out there to make it easy on the dogs.
> 
> As far as training work, clubs need be willing to bring in helpers and many helpers need to get over their egos and realize that there actually might be someone out there that can teach them something.


 
Lisa, I know that the seminars are for the trial helper, but trials are meant to test the dogs. What kind of test is standing there like a statue while a dog barks? I don't understand it. 

I have traveled and worked with different people to try and get better. I truly love helper work and want to be the best helper around. I have worked PPD's as well as some SDA dogs and enjoy the dogs that push me. That make me work that I feel like I am really in a fight with. I hear many people claim to work there dogs this way but when I visit I see a very different picture (not implying you, just in general). I have now gotten to the point where I could care less if my dog is a 300 point dog as long as the dog does what I ask when I ask with no hesitation. I will continue to trial but I will also still do hidden sleeve work, suit work, muzzle work, and work dogs in every situation I can dream up. For me thats the fun stuff.


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## lhczth

If the trials are not testing the dogs then shame on the helpers, shame on the judges and shame on the clubs that allow this in their club. 

YES, I HATE that passive, neutral nonsense that some of the judges are really pushing for in the blind. For some reason they got it in their heads that actually noticing that the dog is there is helping the dog. 

I agree. I train GSD and do IPO because that just happens to be what is the most easily available. I do other stuff with my dogs because it is fun. I like to do well, but won't change how I train and stop doing the other stuff I enjoy doing with my dogs just for points. Plus, I don't feel you should have to.


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## lsatov

Perhaps we could start a new topic to help the newbies understand all the aspects of the protection. I know I would find this helpful as it has already been stated very difficult to find a knowlegeable helper and as a newbie it is difficult to understand all the different aspects. I realize that approaches vary for each dog but to have a basic understanding would be very helpful like protection 101

Laurel


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## lhczth

Read Der Schutzhund by Helmut Raiser. That is probably one of the best places to start.


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## cliffson1

:thumbup:Good foundation book Lisa recommended.


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## ayoitzrimz

Lets see some examples of "good" helper work and what in your opinion is good or correct about them, if any are available to public on youtube...


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## onyx'girl

Not many put up video's on the net because the reason for a particular training session many not be clear to the viewer(thus critiques are inaccurate).
This helper/decoy puts up vids often: Troy Seaton - YouTube
And Melanie does too, I enjoy watching Melanie work dogs!
Melanie Howe - YouTube


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## Liesje

It's hard for me to find videos because they just don't translate well. I've had some of my dogs' best sessions recorded but when I go back and watch I'm like "meh...." The video doesn't really communicate the context (what is being worked on, why, where the dog was previously, how much improvement you are seeing, etc).

One example I can think of I'm not going to post because the guy doing the helperwork is not a member here so I don't think it's fair to toss him to the wolves, but I remember sharing the video a while back on facebook and got a few compliments on his work. We were training a young dog to start the hold and bark, it was the dog's first session doing hold and bark and the second time I sent him, the helper had him bark 34 times before he got a bite, in contrast to a lot of dogs staring a hold and bark that are getting bites ever 4 or 5 barks. I just remember a few people complimented the work because the helper was not just feeding bites but building the frustration and aggression in the dog and capping it with a bite.


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## ayoitzrimz

Thanks Lies, Jane...

I completely understand not wanting to throw non-members to the wolves... and I've seen first hand what happens here when someone posts a video and the harpies chime in... 

hmmmm I do want to see and learn more as I am a beginning helper learning the ropes so to speak... would any of you consider PMing me with Youtube links? You really have no reason to go out of your way, but I would very much appreciate different opinions etc. So I will GLADLY accept PMs of videos that you would consider good and proper, etc...  No need to reply to this post, just feel free to throw PM's my way Thanks!!


----------



## lhczth

Someone you might talk to about getting more training would be Frank Phillips. I know he isn't close, but a lot closer than the other helpers I would recommend. He did a helper seminar for us after our trial (both training and trial) and he had some excellent ideas for specific problems. Maybe try to see about meeting he and Steve Rommard sometime for a weekend when they are training together.


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## lhczth

Something else you have to consider. While we could send you videos, without seeing what the helper is seeing you will not understand why certain things are being done. Most of the time you really need to be in front of the dog. You also need to feel the dog on the sleeve. People like Anne can tell you what she would do, but unless you see what she sees or feel what she feels much of it will not help you. You will just be going through the actions.


----------



## GatorDog

lhczth said:


> Someone you might talk to about getting more training would be Frank Phillips. I know he isn't close, but a lot closer than the other helpers I would recommend. He did a helper seminar for us after our trial (both training and trial) and he had some excellent ideas for specific problems. Maybe try to see about meeting he and Steve Rommard sometime for a weekend when they are training together.





> Thanks Lies, Jane...
> 
> I completely understand not wanting to throw non-members to the wolves... and I've seen first hand what happens here when someone posts a video and the harpies chime in...
> 
> hmmmm I do want to see and learn more as I am a beginning helper learning the ropes so to speak... would any of you consider PMing me with Youtube links? You really have no reason to go out of your way, but I would very much appreciate different opinions etc. So I will GLADLY accept PMs of videos that you would consider good and proper, etc... No need to reply to this post, just feel free to throw PM's my way Thanks!!


Steve and Claudia come up for seminars at my club in Albany a few times a year, so if you're close enough it would definitely be worth it to check out.

Frank is awesome too  He will be the judge for our fall trial.


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## carmspack

Laurel you need to stop overthinking things and get in the moment with what the dog is doing . You have been exposed to some very good decoys - one of them sort of opened the eyes of the club (which is a GOOD one) you belong to.
Raiser's book is good , but a lot of it is prey manipulation and not dealing with a dog coming out of fight - 
I went to the trouble of finding a good decoy who is not in any club , and he would do the bite work for my dogs who went in to service. There was not a one who had any lead up or development for bite work - They lived totally normal lives could have been in anyones pet home , totally socialized and observed in different environments . Then one day , along comes ***** . 
One dog , Simon is a super smooch with me . People that have not seen his other side love his "gentle" ways . People that saw him doing bite work stay in the car till they see me (although my dogs are NOT out without my supervision and even then they would be okay because I am okay -- will not act until necessary). 
Experience and an eye will give you the feel . This dog has already been worked by excellent decoys and responded impressively - very tough , but very clear - ON and OFF .


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## GSDElsa

Oooh the "not looking the dog in the eyes" thing is a peev of mine too. Recently it was commented to me by someone working Medo that his barking was not as good in the blind if the helper was staring off into space, only if he was looking him in the eyes. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....probably because a bad guy staring into space isn't very threatening?? Now, this person was not condoning this (the passive helper thing), but rather it was more or less stating that in a trial Medo will likely not have a helper looking him in the eyes, so we better work on his barking in that scenario.....


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## lhczth

Carmen, have you read Raiser's book?

Justine, A bad guy staring off into space is saying that he has no respect for the dog or the dog's power. He is indifferent. A bad guy who has been cornered by a large aggressive barking dog is either going to fight back or he is going to be staring at the dog in fear. He wouldn't be standing there looking off into space.


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## KJenkins

USCA helper rules state the helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark...that doesn't mean he should eye screw him. Most times during the helper seminars I've attended we are told to look over the top of the dogs head towards the tail. Remember this is during a trial. We aren't supposed to give help to a dog and as stated some dogs just don't have that strong of a guard in the blind unless the helper has eye sex with them. IMO when they come into the blind they should be ready to go and wanting that fight come trial day. It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.


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## onyx'girl

> It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.


I've also seen helpers twitch the stick to keep the dog barking in the blind during trials.


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## VonKromeHaus

_*** Removed by ADMIN - Personal vendetta to be kept off the board *** _

It depends on the dogs and the owners of how the dog is trained at our club. My personal GSD is trained in personal protection and does muzzle work and hidden sleeve work as well as suit and sleeve stuff. He is by no means equipment oriented as that is how I wanted him. Other people in the club train it as a fun game, a lot depends on the individual dogs, most of the dogs trained at our local club that are equipment oriented are other breeds, APBTs,Rottweilers,Airedales etc. That is what their owners choose to do. So, at our club it is an individual basis of how the dogs are trained.


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## carmspack

yes , when it first came out a long time ago. I know that he says that there is a high co-relation between high prey and high fight , that the confident dog does not need to flip into defence , that there is pleasure to fighting and dominating , great will to defeat and be the victor .


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## onyx'girl

VonKromeHaus said:


> *** Quoted portion was removed in original post by ADMIN ***
> 
> It depends on the dogs and the owners of how the dog is trained at our club. My personal GSD is trained in personal protection and does muzzle work and hidden sleeve work as well as suit and sleeve stuff. He is by no means equipment oriented as that is how I wanted him. Other people in the club train it as a fun game, a lot depends on the individual dogs, most of the dogs trained at our local club that are equipment oriented are other breeds, APBTs,Rottweilers,Airedales etc. That is what their owners choose to do. So, at our club it is an individual basis of how the dogs are trained.


Why would they train their dogs to be equipment focused? Just curious? 
And if so, are they trialing or just playing around?


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## carmspack

time so fractured lately -- back to Helmut Raiser , I think he is a "master" trainer - I agree that his dog Dreschler was under appreciated , under used , he and and Arthus Lunsholz being better than Sagus who appears on so many pedigrees.
I think Helmut had a gift in reading animals and getting them to work - and his analytic mind tried to decipher it so others could understand what he was experiencing.
Helmut pretty well ushered in MODERN dog training , more of the motivational , prey-booty , which culminates in performances , even in obedience , like Ginogenilli's two years back (3?) .
I think a lot of the pressure for flashy and high prey came from his new training .
I admire the man , am awed by his dogs and performance and feel that he was done wrong when he was the legitimate , democratically voted in head of the SV and then deposed because the recommendations and standards he wanted to make.


----------



## GSDElsa

KJenkins said:


> USCA helper rules state the helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark...that doesn't mean he should eye screw him. Most times during the helper seminars I've attended we are told to look over the top of the dogs head towards the tail. Remember this is during a trial. We aren't supposed to give help to a dog and as stated some dogs just don't have that strong of a guard in the blind unless the helper has eye sex with them. IMO when they come into the blind they should be ready to go and wanting that fight come trial day. It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.


True, true! I perhaps misunderstood what he was saying when he was talking about not staring at the dog and I interpreted it as more as avoiding the dog all together rather than staring over the top of them.


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## robk

This thread is all over the place with multiple conversations going on at once.


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## onyx'girl

aren't they all? LOL!


----------



## codmaster

One question on the topic of "Drives" - seems to me that the definition (and number and type) of these as well as the purpose is all over the place and depends to a large degree on the individual talking about them.

Seems to me in many cases to be an after the fact explanation of, or just trying to explain, a dog's behavior.

So my question is - is there a fact based generally accepted definition list of a dog's drives?


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## onyx'girl

> So my question is - is there a fact based generally accepted definition list of a dog's drives?


Schutzhund Village


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## Liesje

I think Armin Winkler's descriptions are generally accepted

Schutzhund Village


----------



## codmaster

Thanks to both! very interesting.

This doesn't seem to be a very long list of drives.

I.E. what drive would it be in a dog to protect her puppies against an intruder?

Is it a "drive" for a dog to be food aggressive (i.e. self preservation?)

Or for a dog in a pack to forge ahead and attack a large dangerous prey, i.e. a moose
would that be "prey" drive or something else?

It almost seems like all "instinctual" behavior is traceable back to a drive. 

And yet there will conflicts sometimes - self preservation drive versus "fight" drive when challenged by a large dangerous foe?

Can "learned" behavior overcome "drives" in setting the behavior of our dogs? (assuming that we owners would like t do so sometimes)


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## onyx'girl

another good link(I'm sure you've already seen this one though)
Elem. of Temperament


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> It almost seems like all "instinctual" behavior is traceable back to a drive.


Pretty much, but you can't always just look at one at a time, you have to consider the balance and the threshold.


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## cliffson1

Some people have to comment on everything, even when it is obvious they don't know a lot about the subject:wub:.
I think a mammal protecting their young is pretty consistent with all animals....not sure that would be a drive.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> *Some people have to comment on everything, even when it is obvious they don't know a lot about the subject*:wub:.
> I think a mammal protecting their young is pretty consistent with all animals....not sure that would be a drive.


So cliffson1, I guess you are right about some folks commenting when they don't know a lot - I thought that I heard somewhere that a "drive" was an instinctive behavior and just assumed that a dog protecting it's young was just that - an instinctive behavior. Maybe not, though.

So since I obviously don't know much about "drives" (hence my original question about them and how they relate to a dog's behavior); I admittedly can't understand your comment above about the dog's behavior i asked about - which "drive" would a dog defending it's young would represent?

Just to be clear - what "drive" would this behavior represent? 

I am asking your personal opinion (or anybody else's as well) about a topic that you have discussed before in this forum - I think.

Is a "drive" NOT an instinctive behavior, or is protecting it's young not evidence of some drive or other?


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> or is protecting it's young not evidence of some drive or other?


Maternal instinct is what makes the dog want to protect her young. If she actually has to protect them that's when the drive kicks in? (guessing )


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## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> Maternal instinct is what makes the dog want to protect her young. If she actually has to protect them that's when the drive kicks in? (guessing )


 
Maybe "maternal drive"? Heh! Heh!

or "paternal drive" for the daddy!


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## msvette2u

cliffson1 said:


> Some people have to comment on everything, even when it is obvious they don't know a lot about the subject:wub:.
> I think a mammal protecting their young is pretty consistent with all animals....not sure that would be a drive.


Mammals protecting their young is extremely intense, I'm not sure what drive it'd be either, but it's best to not mess with it 

At to not knowing a lot about something, how do you think we'll learn if not discussion? 

Within the next year or so, we plan to have a pup from a very good breeder that we'll be able to work with, and this is a very interesting discussion to me. I'd like to know that more goes on in Sch. these days than dogs running around playing with sleeves, which has been cod's observations as well :shrug:


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## cliffson1

@Msvette....my first comment was not directed at anyone specifically, but the second comment about drives and mammals was really in response to what was posed by Codmaster....and as I stated I really am NOT sure if maternal instinct would be considered a drive.....nothing more, nothing less. There is a lot about this breed that I am not as knowledgable about as I would like, I tend to not venture opinions in those areas, though sometimes I will ask questions for more clarification.
I think Codmaster was trying to get a greater understanding of this aspect of the sport, and I am sure there are plenty of people on this forum who can and did give him good info. I agree a lot of people learn from these forums and that is good.


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## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> If a ScH dog is truly being trained in protection - why would the training be so sleeve oriented to the point where the dog (in the local club that i am in now) is trained to be pretty much oriented to the sleeve (even when the helper sheds the sleeve and the dog then runs off the field or sometimes just carries it around the field)?
> 
> Is it simply more of a game now than true protection work?
> 
> Would a ScH trained dog be more (or less if the perp doesn't have a sleeve on) or less likely to really protect the owner?
> 
> I am assuming with this question that the dog itself has the courage to fight and is not shy or soft or a spook, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> I have recently returned to ScH after an absence from it for over 25 years and it just seems much much different. I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work


Lemme give you *one *of the reasons. 

In Germany SchH has a tough time to survive and the public looks at SchH dogs as attack dogs, even though there has never been an incident of a SchH dog going after people in Germany, at least not that I am aware of. 
BSL is very, very, very much alive in Germany and a lot of people are constantly questioning why the GSD is not on the list. If you have a "list dog" like a pit bull, depending on where you live, you WILL pay up to a 1000 Euros a year in dog tax to keep that dog (you have to pay dog tax to keep a dog in Germany). 

So the clubs are trying to show that the dogs are not attack dogs, that they are sleeve oriented and that the public is safe from these "unstable Monsters". That training methods are no longer what they used to be, because Schutzhund used to be a hard and brutal sport and therefor does not have a very good reputation with rescuers and that while there are still oldtimers out there training with compulsion, you can't win that way and you have to have a happy dog in order to survive the new system. 

Public pressure, whether we like it or not. IS a reason, why dogs are sleeve oriented these days.


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## GatorDog

Mrs.K said:


> Lemme give you *one *of the reasons.
> 
> In Germany SchH has a tough time to survive and the public looks at SchH dogs as attack dogs, even though there has never been an incident of a SchH dog going after people in Germany, at least not that I am aware of.
> BSL is very, very, very much alive in Germany and a lot of people are constantly questioning why the GSD is not on the list. If you have a "list dog" like a pit bull, depending on where you live, you WILL pay up to a 1000 Euros a year in dog tax to keep that dog (you have to pay dog tax to keep a dog in Germany).
> 
> So the clubs are trying to show that the dogs are not attack dogs, that they are sleeve oriented and that the public is safe from these "unstable Monsters". That training methods are no longer what they used to be, because Schutzhund used to be a hard and brutal sport and therefor does not have a very good reputation with rescuers and that while there are still oldtimers out there training with compulsion, you can't win that way and you have to have a happy dog in order to survive the new system.
> 
> Public pressure, whether we like it or not. IS a reason, why dogs are sleeve oriented these days.


This was my understanding as well..For the same reasons we have to now say "go" on the escape bite.


Also, in reply to some other comments...As a newbie in the sport, I am not afraid to say that I have just been playing around in Schutzhund with my dog. I don't have the "right" dog for the sport. Does that mean that I shouldn't get the chance to try it with him? I'm not breeding him... If we had both been "washed out" like people here have stated that we should, then there would be plenty of people like me and Aiden who wouldn't be interested in or even have a chance at the training at all. How many new people are coming into Schutzhund with the "right" dog right off the bat? That hardly seems fair to me.


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## robk

I am kind of in the same situation as Alexis. For me Schutzhund is something fun to do with my dog. There are three phases to the sport and all three phases bring its own challenges. My dog is a good dog but I doubt he will ever be a national level competitor and he will probably never be bred. He has a little more defense in him and is a little less equipment oriented than most dogs on the field but we are not really training for "real" protection. We are training to pass a schutzhund trial. 

Schutzhund has given us a structured environment to train in and a goal to train towards. It has helped me learn how to communicate with my dog, understand what motivates him and has helped to develop trust between the two of us. Yes I differently trust him more because I have learned where his thresholds are. I also know he will stick a down and he will recall on command. 

For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday. I wasn't around back then. But I am here now and my dog and I are enjoying where we are together.


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## GatorDog

robk said:


> I am kind of in the same situation as Alexis. For me Schutzhund is something fun to do with my dog. There are three phases to the sport and all three phases bring its own challenges. My dog is a good dog but I doubt he will ever be a national level competitor and he will probably never be bred. He has a little more defense in him and is a little less equipment oriented than most dogs on the field but we are not really training for "real" protection. We are training to pass a schutzhund trial.
> 
> Schutzhund has given us a structured environment to train in and a goal to train towards. It has helped me learn how to communicate with my dog, understand what motivates him and has helped to develop trust between the two of us. Yes I differently trust him more because I have learned where his thresholds are. I also know he will stick a down and he will recall on command.
> 
> For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday. I wasn't around back then. But I am here now and my dog and I are enjoying where we are together.


We think the same way  My dog isn't exactly equipment oriented either, but I'm not trying to train him for personal protection..hes my pet first and I enjoy training with him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## cliffson1

@Gator and Robt.....there is nothing wrong with what you guys are doing....plenty of club level people having good times. I have a small Sunday club that is comprised of mainly former AKC obedience and show people that have left the ASL dogs and have WGSL and pups from WL. These people are my age, are interested in titling a dog, but are there for the fun and the experience. They trust me and I take it at there speed and there dogs speed. Nothing wrong whatsoever with that....actually one of them is president of the South Jersey GSDCA and they are really happy to do some serious work and learn a lot. They constantly tell me how they didn't realize how much they didn't know about training. Some of these people have put CDX and UD on dogs and some have finished AKC champions. But they are having fun, learning, and definitely going back to breed club with positive info about the sport. Most of these people will only ever do club titles, but hey that's alright. For my dogs it's socialization as they get to work weekly with police....my point is certainly there are places for folks like you in the breed and sport if you and your dog commit.


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## carmspack

this is very true "For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday" but it begs the question what will the dogs of TOMORROW be like . We have already seen that decoys don't know how to work the older style dogs anymore. It may mean that entire chunks out of the genetic heritage of the breed will disappear like some unfashionable garment . It means that the mentality of the mindset of the breed will have shifted. It also begs the question are the "new" dogs better, safer , better judgement, true obedience that is not toy motivated. What are we losing overall.


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## Liesje

Does it matter how we classify a mother protecting young? What does that have to do with SchH protection?.....


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> this is very true "For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday" but it begs the question what will the dogs of TOMORROW be like . We have already seen that decoys don't know how to work the older style dogs anymore. It may mean that entire chunks out of the genetic heritage of the breed will disappear like some unfashionable garment . It means that the mentality of the mindset of the breed will have shifted. It also begs the question are the "new" dogs better, safer , better judgement, true obedience that is not toy motivated. What are we losing overall.


Not all decoys are bad decoys. There are still decoys out there that worked their way up working the not so stellar dog material and know how to work any dog from the bottom to the top!


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## wolfstraum

KJenkins said:


> USCA helper rules state the helper is to watch the dog during the hold and bark...that doesn't mean he should eye screw him. Most times during the helper seminars I've attended we are told to look over the top of the dogs head towards the tail. Remember this is during a trial. We aren't supposed to give help to a dog and as stated some dogs just don't have that strong of a guard in the blind unless the helper has eye sex with them. IMO when they come into the blind they should be ready to go and wanting that fight come trial day. It shouldn't take the helper having a stare down or a twitch here and there to keep them barking and in the blind.



Ah - but this is all prey drive. And IMO, the strong dog with fight who does not perceive a threat from the helper does NOT score as well here.....the dog who is all prey drive is barking at the sleeve - not at the helper. It remains to be seen whether the prey dogs are truly breedworthy. The IPO test does not really tell you that any more (just go look at alot of the Sieger show videos!!!)

I have trained and trialed both kinds of dogs....I prefer the dog who is strong and works hard when perceiving a threat. The helper's demeanor and posture can compose a threat. I understand (as per Mrs. K's post) the political reasons for the change - but I also believe you can still have a strong dog who has active social aggression and can title within these parameters. You may not win HIT or score V's all the time in protection but if you are a truly objective breeder - you will know the difference.

Lee


----------



## KJenkins

Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.

In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?


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## msvette2u

So...speaking of which...since Schutzhund was a sport to determine if a dog was breedworthy, where the rubber meets the road, how can you use this these days to determine if a dog is breedworthy?

It reminds me of the discussions on Pit bull forum where "old timers" complain that without "matching" the dogs it's impossible to know if they are breedworthy :shrug:
They blame outlawing fighting on the decline of the breed (that, and they sold dogs to idiots like Michael Vick...)


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## GatorDog

msvette2u said:


> So...speaking of which...since Schutzhund was a sport to determine if a dog was breedworthy, where the rubber meets the road, how can you use this these days to determine if a dog is breedworthy?
> 
> It reminds me of the discussions on Pit bull forum where "old timers" complain that without "matching" the dogs it's impossible to know if they are breedworthy :shrug:
> They blame outlawing fighting on the decline of the breed (that, and they sold dogs to idiots like Michael Vick...)


I think a responsible breeder can tell if the dog is worthy just by watching the routine. You can see that my dog is not strong in the work just by watching him, so long as you know what you're looking at. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Mrs.K

Honestly, the same discussion has been going on for as long as I can remember. Twenty years ago people said they didn't have the dogs that you had ten years before that, and from this point on, in twenty years, we will still talk the same talk we are talking today (boy...did I just say that? LOL). 

There will ALWAYS be a working German Shepherd. There will always be people who breed the right dog for the kind of work we need them for. 
There will always be competing breeds like Malinois. There will always be prejudices, prey monsters, weak dogs, hard dogs, show dogs. 

The cycle will never stop.


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## björn

The intention for many is probably just to compete in a sport for fun and glory, if the dog is a real "protectiondog" or not is less important. As mentioned it´s also maybe more controversial in some countries/places if some newbie or "macho-man" insist his sportdog must also be a real protectiondog, especially if this also involves traininmethods that are less nice for the dogs.

A dog defending the offspring, territory etc is fitting the definition of defencedrive in my opinion


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## wolfstraum

KJenkins said:


> Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?



If there is no threat - why fight? Yes - You CAN train this...strong dog or weak dog - turns it into a game - bark for "reward"....have done so.....but the looking away from the dog is NOT THREATENING and weaker dogs can look good as they are NOT perceiving a threat

Lee


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## robk

björn said:


> *The intention for many is probably just to compete in a sport for fun and glory, if the dog is a real "protectiondog" or not is less important*. As mentioned it´s also maybe more controversial in some countries/places if some newbie or "macho-man" insist his sportdog must also be a real protectiondog, especially if this also involves traininmethods that are less nice for the dogs.
> 
> A dog defending the offspring, territory etc is fitting the definition of defencedrive in my opinion


 
Good Post. This sums up my expectations out of the sport for me and my dog.


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## carmspack

"the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper" -- how would that strength be developed and rewarded if the dog were NOT given a bite as a reward ?


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## carmspack

"There will ALWAYS be a working German Shepherd." are you sure about that .


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> "There will ALWAYS be a working German Shepherd." are you sure about that .


As long as there are people like you, Cliffson, Wildhaus Kennels, Blackthorn, Wolfstraum, Olgameister, Staatsmacht, Kassler Kreuz etc. 
YES, I'm sure about that.


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## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> Lemme give you *one *of the reasons.
> 
> In Germany SchH has a tough time to survive and the public looks at SchH dogs as attack dogs, even though there has never been an incident of a SchH dog going after people in Germany, at least not that I am aware of.
> BSL is very, very, very much alive in Germany and a lot of people are constantly questioning why the GSD is not on the list. If you have a "list dog" like a pit bull, depending on where you live, you WILL pay up to a 1000 Euros a year in dog tax to keep that dog (you have to pay dog tax to keep a dog in Germany).
> 
> So the clubs are trying to show that the dogs are not attack dogs, that they are sleeve oriented and that the public is safe from these "unstable Monsters". That training methods are no longer what they used to be, because Schutzhund used to be a hard and brutal sport and therefor does not have a very good reputation with rescuers and that while there are still oldtimers out there training with compulsion, you can't win that way and you have to have a happy dog in order to survive the new system.
> 
> Public pressure, whether we like it or not. IS a reason, why dogs are sleeve oriented these days.


Thanks for the insider insight! I never would have thought that to be the case in Germany (don't know why not, but it would never have occurred to me).


----------



## Catu

KJenkins said:


> Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?


THIS!!!

The strong dog can come to the blind looking for a fight, expecting a fight that on his experience is always there and is fun for the dog. When the helper is neutral, looking at the sky, the dog challenges the helper through barking then if the helper retreats (slight body language can even be enough for the dog) that can be as rewarding as a bite, where the dog is rewarded with the fight he was looking for, not the sleeve itself. Personally, that is what I want to see, I don't need a helper being threatening to the dog because I want the dog fighting for the joy of the fight, not because he feels his life is at stake.


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## Catu

Mrs.K said:


> As long as there are people like you, Cliffson, Wildhaus Kennels, Blackthorn, Wolfstraum, Olgameister, Staatsmacht, Kassler Kreuz etc.
> YES, I'm sure about that.


We need to breed them, because they are getting old quickly oke: :silly:


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## Vandal

> For me schutzhund isn't about whether or not the dogs of today are the same as the dogs of yesterday. Or if the training today is the same as the training of yesterday. I wasn't around back then. But I am here now and my dog and I are enjoying where we are together.


I am assuming this is directed at what I said since I did the most talking about the differences we see now vs before. I was trying to answer the question posed in the title of the thread. 
I realize most people don't care or just want to have fun. That's fine but that's not all they are doing. They are , most of the time, claiming how important SchH is, that is is somehow maintaining character in the dogs and so on. Maybe to a degree but when things are done as they are now, it has the effect of changing things in a not so positive way and that has occurred. 
We have a little debate going on about the blind. I will offer this:
While I can agree with what Keith said, I look at it a bit differently and once again, it goes back to how much things have changed. Now we are doing things in the blind so the dog is not helped to become aggressive. Why they feel the need to do that speaks volumes...to me anyway. Like Keith said, they should come in there in the right frame of mind. However, If they do come in that way, how well they can contain it becomes the test. That means they can think clearly enough to not "attack" a person who is standing still, whether he is looking at them or not. That was kind of what we used to be looking for anyway. It is not enough if a dog is aggressive , the rest has to come with it or they are simply a junk yard dog. A dog who "brings it" into the blind is rather obvious, whether the helper is looking at him or not. Clearly, we are not seeing enough of those dogs, so, the judges/rules are doing this kind of stuff. I personally, would rather see SchH allow a less aggressive dog look well....less aggressive,( and they will even if looking at them "helps), than to help a dog who can't contain his aggression and fight. I just would like people to realize what SchH was for. It DID have a purpose and mostly, it wasn't about seeing whether dogs were aggressive enough. It was about seeing if they had the rest of what is necessary in dogs bred to protect..


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## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> Thanks for the insider insight! I never would have thought that to be the case in Germany (don't know why not, but it would never have occurred to me).


There is a huge shift. While there are plenty of Schutzhund Clubs out there depending on where you live and what the reputation of those "oldtimers" were, there is a huge stigma on it. 

People, these days, are disgusted by compulsion. What many of you want in a dog, that hard and rough dog, putting up a fight, is what the public no longer wants and they don't want to see a helper putting up a real fight with the dog. They don't want to see a dog getting real hits on his back, they don't want to see real pressure on a dog because most of the time, it doesn't look pretty. 

E-collar, Prong Collar, anything that could even give a hint of a correction is frowned upon. Just post a picture on the _German _German Shepherd Group on Facebook and you WILL be scrutinized. 

There is a shift and it's not only in the US, Germany, Italy or Switzerland. You can see that shift all over the world and it does effect every single breed. It's almost the same shift you can see in raising kids these days. 

Another thing that is happening is that the general public doesn't understand why "these type of dogs" have to be trained by civilians. Many civilians, especially rescuers and activists believe that these dogs, and that kind of training, should not be accessible to civilians but solely in the hand of the German Police and German Military.


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## Mrs.K

> I just would like people to realize what SchH was for. It DID have a purpose and mostly, it wasn't about seeing whether dogs were aggressive enough. It was about seeing if they had the rest of what is necessary in dogs bred to protect..


This has got to be the most meaningful words that have ever been spoken on this forum.


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## Vandal

BTW, SchH was never about dogs working in personal protection. While I owned dogs who would protect me, they certainly were not dogs who needed to see that kind of training. It was rather clear that they would. SchH was about putting the dog's character on display and you could see it in how the dog performed each exercise. They actually had a purpose, those boring "routine" situations. I have to laugh when people bag on SchH because it is a routine. They clearly do not understand.

As for compulsion. I realize that many people kind of lose their mind and then everything they do TO their dog, is labeled as "compulsion". That is simply BAD training, one has nothing to do with the other. There is now thinking that a correction is puishment. It is not. I had tough, strong dogs. They did not require abuse to train them. If I did too much, it was usually because of what I said. I would lose my mind and my temper. Never occurred to me that I was right when those times would occur. 99% of the time, I was training those dogs fairly, yes, using corrections. Most people have never seen that training done correctly and I would bet money, if they did, they would not find it the least bit unpleasant.


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## KJenkins

wolfstraum said:


> If there is no threat - why fight? Yes - You CAN train this...strong dog or weak dog - turns it into a game - bark for "reward"....have done so.....but the looking away from the dog is NOT THREATENING and weaker dogs can look good as they are NOT perceiving a threat
> 
> Lee


If we as the handler send our dog to search for the decoy then by God they better perceive them as something regardless of what drive they are in when they get to the find or what the decoy does or doesn't do while they are there... otherwise we wouldn't/shouldn't have sent them.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> BTW, SchH was never about dogs working in personal protection. While I owned dogs who would protect me, they certainly were not dogs who needed to see that kind of training. It was rather clear that they would. SchH was about putting the dog's character on display and you could see it in how the dog performed each exercise. They actually had a purpose, those boring "routine" situations. I have to laugh when people bag on SchH because it is a routine. They clearly do not understand.
> 
> As for compulsion. I realize that many people kind of lose their mind and then everything they do TO their dog, is labeled as "compulsion". That is simply BAD training, one has nothing to do with the other. There is now thinking that a correction is puishment. It is not. I had tough, strong dogs. They did not require abuse to train them. If I did too much, it was usually because of what I said. I would lose my mind and my temper. Never occurred to me that I was right when those times would occur. 99% of the time, I was training those dogs fairly, yes, using corrections. Most people have never seen that training done correctly and I would bet money, if they did, they would not find it the least bit unpleasant.


I absolutely agree with you. The problem I can see in Germany is, even though you do show these people a different SchH, their mind is already so set, that they can't bring themselves to open up to the sport. They are so set in their believes of what it is, it's merely impossible to change their minds. 

Clubs are approachable, even do a lot of public work these days, a TV channel picked up on the change in SchH and how positive it is these days and still, they got ripped apart because people believe they know what compulsion and correction is. 

That being said, my helper and trainer asked me yesterday "What are you so afraid of? Why are you holding yourself back? YOU are your worst enemy." and he is right. I am scared to correct my dogs, I'm scared to make a step outside my comfort zone, I'm scared that I could screw up that awesome little bitch I have. 
I've seen the compulsion back in the day and on top of that underwent the conditioning that it is bad. So that combination, even though I know in my head that it's irrational thinking, makes it very hard for me to correct the dog, even though it's necessary. 
I also believe it is a product of humanzing dogs too much. 

Just look at this forum. How many people promote positive training only. A correction is not abuse and abuse is not a correction. Compulsion doesn't have to be abuse either. It's a matter of timing and how you carry it out.


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## msvette2u

> How many people promote positive training only.


That's because people don't know when/how to correct a dog. They do stupid things like put an e-collar on for the slightest infractions and then use them incorrectly.

Back to the kids analogy - you see parents doing all kinds of hurtful things to kids in the name of discipline, afraid to spank their children correctly, and instead of teaching a parent how to spank a child correctly, they outlaw spanking completely, thereby making parents more frustrated and finally the parents snaps because this child who could have been swatted on the butt a few times is now a hoodlum with no respect for their parents. 

If people knew how to correct a dog properly (not rubbing a puppy's nose in poop for instance) I'd be more open to them using physical corrections.


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## RocketDog

Vandal said:


> I am assuming this is directed at what I said since I did the most talking about the differences we see now vs before. I was trying to answer the question posed in the title of the thread.
> *I realize most people don't care *or just want to have fun. That's fine but that's not all they are doing. They are , most of the time, claiming how important SchH is, that is is somehow maintaining character in the dogs and so on. Maybe to a degree but when things are done as they are now, it has the effect of changing things in a not so positive way and that has occurred.
> We have a little debate going on about the blind. I will offer this:
> While I can agree with what Keith said, I look at it a bit differently and once again, it goes back to how much things have changed. Now we are doing things in the blind so the dog is not helped to become aggressive. Why they feel the need to do that speaks volumes...to me anyway. Like Keith said, they should come in there in the right frame of mind. However, If they do come in that way, how well they can contain it becomes the test. That means they can think clearly enough to not "attack" a person who is standing still, whether he is looking at them or not. That was kind of what we used to be looking for anyway. It is not enough if a dog is aggressive , the rest has to come with it or they are simply a junk yard dog. A dog who "brings it" into the blind is rather obvious, whether the helper is looking at him or not. Clearly, we are not seeing enough of those dogs, so, the judges/rules are doing this kind of stuff. I personally, would rather see SchH allow a less aggressive dog look well....less aggressive,( and they will even if looking at them "helps), than to help a dog who can't contain his aggression and fight. I just would like people to realize what SchH was for. It DID have a purpose and mostly, it wasn't about seeing whether dogs were aggressive enough. It was about seeing if they had the rest of what is necessary in dogs bred to protect..


But some of us do and it is a great learning experience for us to read posts like yours.


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> Something else you have to consider. While we could send you videos, without seeing what the helper is seeing you will not understand why certain things are being done. Most of the time you really need to be in front of the dog. You also need to feel the dog on the sleeve. People like Anne can tell you what she would do, but unless you see what she sees or feel what she feels much of it will not help you. You will just be going through the actions.


Exactly.. people see videos of or actually witness Katya or Jäger work and think "nice!", but when I take that person and put them in front of the dog its a whole different ballgame... its always "holy @#$ that was scary". Its *very* different, and you see *much* more of the dog's heart & soul when you're face to face


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## hunterisgreat

KJenkins said:


> Bull...If the dog is that *strong* he should be pushing for that fight as soon as they come into the blind. That's the whole premise to teaching the hold and bark....the reward, the bite, comes from the dog attentively guarding and barking at the helper. The dog should feel like they own the helper as soon as they round the find blind and that includes barking, another form of countering for the dog.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things do you think it's going to matter to someone if they get bit with 250psi of jaw pressure it's going to matter what drive the dog happens to be in at that point in time?


I believe the reward should not be the bite, but the defeat of the aggressor... looks the same from the outside, world of difference to the dog. This is the result of training, and part genetic.

It does matter. A dog in high fight/aggression, when I stab him or punch him in the face, will fight harder. A dog in high prey will be rattled and potentially disengage... cause prey doesn't fight back like that.


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## codmaster

Vandal said:


> BTW, SchH was never about dogs working in personal protection. While I owned dogs who would protect me, they certainly were not dogs who needed to see that kind of training. It was rather clear that they would. SchH was about putting the dog's character on display and you could see it in how the dog performed each exercise. They actually had a purpose, those boring "routine" situations. I have to laugh when people bag on SchH because it is a routine. They clearly do not understand.
> 
> As for compulsion. I realize that many people kind of lose their mind and then everything they do TO their dog, is labeled as "compulsion". That is simply BAD training, one has nothing to do with the other. There is now thinking that a correction is puishment. It is not. I had tough, strong dogs. They did not require abuse to train them. If I did too much, it was usually because of what I said. I would lose my mind and my temper. Never occurred to me that I was right when those times would occur. 99% of the time, I was training those dogs fairly, yes, using corrections. Most people have never seen that training done correctly and I would bet money, if they did, they would not find it the least bit unpleasant.


Vandal,
Are you saying that Sch training does not increase their capability to defend their owners, both from a motivation to be more likely to do so and the ability from the frequent practice of biting someone?


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## codmaster

hunterisgreat said:


> I believe the reward should not be the bite, but the defeat of the aggressor... looks the same from the outside, world of difference to the dog. This is the result of training, and part genetic.
> 
> It does matter. *A dog in high fight/aggression, when I stab him or punch him in the face, will fight harder. A dog in high prey will be rattled and potentially disengage... cause prey doesn't fight back like that*.


Are you implying that a dog biting the decoy makes his mind up what "drive" he/she is in and then acts accordingly?

If a dog is shot, knifed or even simply punched - do you think that this very act might cause a courageous dog to shift from "prey" to "defense" "drive" (I am assuming that a dog in "defense" is fighting because he thinks his very life is in danger (as I read that somewhere about defense))?

BTW, I think that some "prey" might very well fight like heck when the dog catches up! Would the dog then have to shift into "defense" or risk losing and/or quitting? I would assume that the same dog would continue to fight.

But i am assuming (admittedly) that a dog who has the right nerve and courage will fight till he wins, whether we call it "prey" or "defense" but I am not very knowledable about this whole "drive" thing to be sure.

Is there a visible sign other than the pitch and sound of his bark that would tell even a novice like me whether a dog is in "prey" "defense" or any other drive?


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## Catu

codmaster said:


> Are you implying that a dog biting the decoy makes his mind up what "drive" he/she is in and then acts accordingly?
> *The dog doesn't need to "know" in what drive he is to act accordingly to the given situation. We humans give names to what we see to discuss about it on Internet forums.*
> 
> If a dog is shot, knifed or even simply punched - do you think that this very act might cause a courageous dog to shift from "prey" to "defense" "drive" (I am assuming that a dog in "defense" is fighting because he thinks his very life is in danger (as I read that somewhere about defense))?
> *One of the trait that characterizes a good dog is how easily he shift from one drive to other and back and fort. But if the dog shifts to defense, he will run, that is the smart thing to do after all. If he shifts to "fight" (active aggression, rank drive, whatever name you want to give to it) he will counteract harder.*
> 
> BTW, I think that some "prey" might very well fight like heck when the dog catches up! Would the dog then have to shift into "defense" or risk losing and/or quitting? I would assume that the same dog would continue to fight.
> *One of the reasons why prey was introduced to bite work in the first place was its correlation with the fight.*
> 
> But i am assuming (admittedly) that a dog who has the right nerve and courage will fight till he wins, whether we call it "prey" or "defense" but I am not very knowledgeable about this whole "drive" thing to be sure.
> *Don't worry, the concept of drive itself is quite outdated and not always used in a more scientific approach because it doesn't accurately explain some behaviors, exactly for the same reasons you have problems understanding it. We still use it on the field though, because it keeps being practical.*
> 
> Is there a visible sign other than the pitch and sound of his bark that would tell even a novice like me whether a dog is in "prey" "defense" or any other drive?
> *Absolutely! The tail, the eyes, the mouth, all body language can be different.*


Personally I like the Modal Theory to understand those shifts from one emotional state to the other.


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## cliffson1

Dogs don't think about what drive they are going to use....that is human thinking.


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## cliffson1

Good post Catu.....one of the confusing aspects of this is that you can have a dog bite in prey and fight back, and you can have a dog bite in prey and not fight back.....depends on dog, training, or genetics, or a combination of the three.


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## KJenkins

hunterisgreat said:


> I believe the reward should not be the bite, but the defeat of the aggressor... looks the same from the outside, world of difference to the dog. This is the result of training, and part genetic.
> 
> It does matter. A dog in high fight/aggression, when I stab him or punch him in the face, will fight harder. A dog in high prey will be rattled and potentially disengage... cause prey doesn't fight back like that.


What leads you to believe that the bite isn't the defeat of the aggressor to the dog?..I mean really how do you know what exactly goes on in a dog's mind....push enough buttons and just about 99.99% of all dogs above ground will at some point disengage and/or get rattled.


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## Vandal

> Vandal,
> Are you saying that Sch training does not increase their capability to defend their owners, both from a motivation to be more likely to do so and the ability from the frequent practice of biting someone?


I am saying there are things you cannot train into a dog. He either has it or he doesn't. SchH was designed to show you which dogs had "it" and that included nerves, hardness, fight drive, and a willingness to work with his handler. The exercises were designed to put that on display. How the dog performed each one, and the cumulative pressure of all the exercises and phases, (done in one day), made up the test. It was less about the training than it is now. Now, people train behaviors that are designed to make the dog "appear" to be something he may not be. They know all kinds of ways to lessen the stress on the dogs, not to mention, the reed stick is gone, along with the attack on the handler. Trainers have all kinds of "tools" they use to achieve this look, ( and to relieve stress), which results in the training being put on display more than the dogs. 
We have all kinds of opinions about what makes a good GSD. Many now think they have a really stable dog because the helper kind of plays with the dog in "protection" and then the dog is friendly with him afterward. Why wouldn't he be? Or their dog is "friendly", not an ounce of suspicion and views the world more like a Golden Retriever. These dogs are deemed to have great nerves. Well, if there was nothing in the world for me to be concerned with, my nerves would appear to be quite good as well. 

Just ask the question "will a SchH dog really protect" and you will get all kinds of answers that mostly say NO. I was certainly not saying a SchH dog won't protect, I was saying that SchH was not about training a dog to be a personal protection dog. It was a test to see if the dog had what a GERMAN SHEPHERD was intended to possess, one of those being a protective instinct. They used the PROTECTION phase for that, which anymore, just might surprise people. I don't know that it occurs to people what makes up a protective instinct anymore, that's how convoluted things have become in the world of SchH.


You put a dog in a situation where PROTECTION is required and that is when you will see if he has that instinct and all the rest of what a GSD is supposed to be. That means, the dog has to view "protection" as just that. Most of the dogs now do not view it that way, for a number of reasons. One of which I talked about at the start of this thread. There is a mentality that you should not do that, that it is somehow wrong and the dogs won't "score" well. Recently, I was at a club working a dog who was more serious. A woman watching the training, stood up, proclaimed loudly that " SchH is supposed to be a game! " and stormed off to her car. Not much surprises me anymore but when people like her are attracted to SchH, the breed has a BIG problem on it's hands and those people are becoming MUCH more common. 

In case there is any doubt, yes, I preferred the old way of doing SchH. I was more a person who enjoyed showing who my dog was, not so much my training. Having said that, we always looked for training that tapped into the dog's natural instincts. Now, it is much harder to do that because the dogs are different and so is the training offered at clubs. Weren't as many dogs who lacked a protective instinct back then. They were BRED that way. Now, we have a completely different basis for breeding, where how well a dog chases a rag is the primary test for SchH. I don't know if it occurs to people or not but that just might be why we see less dogs who have the ability to take on a man. That certainly is NOT what we were looking for when I started. The dog was expected to chase a bad guy away and to show a desire to protect his handler. Very few clubs start dogs out using suspicion and driving a man away, again, using the instincts a GSD was intended to possess. They start with a "flirt pole", meaning, there is hardly a man involved in it at all. 

This thread has pretty much demonstrated what I talked about as far as mentality goes. It is now an activity that everyone can do to have fun. It is not a test of the dogs a majority of the time. Do I like saying that? No. 

One last comment. The people who want to have fun....it is a heck of a lot more fun when you have a REALLY good dog who works in protection using the drives and instincts a GSD should be using. I see how people respond when they watch dogs who "mean it" and have the genetics that a GSD was intended to have. It excites most people to have a dog like this. That has not changed much but the dogs have, which makes finding this kind of dog much more difficult now. If you have one, you then have to find a place where the helpers will not try to play with him and bore the bejesus out of him in the process . Most of the people I know who have a very hard time with their dogs now, are the people who get good dogs who really want to engage the helper. Very few helpers know how to work them. They make fights with the dog while they are trying to do what they think is prey work. People who want to hold the dog's mouth on the sleeve and stuff like that. Never would have occurred to helpers some years back to do that, nor would it have occurred to them to stick their face down there right in the dog's face. lol. That's all I see now. People thinking they are going to bring aggression like that. You can't when it is not in the dog. Most often, the dog will stare at the sleeve now when the helper applies pressure. Oh sure, we have ways to address that weakness now but it is a weakness. Sure, you can say it is the training and to a degree, it can be. However, I know dogs who will not look at that sleeve when a helper behaves that way. They will "switch drives", ( if that is the terminology you prefer), and channel the pressure into the man. They will not follow the sleeve wherever they wave it, they are looking at the man. THAT is more correct behavior for a GSD working in protection but you sure will not see large numbers of SchH trainers agreeing. It was these kinds of dogs that prey work was designed for. That doesn't mean those dogs did not also have high prey drive but it is not the kind of prey drive most are seeing in their dogs. It is completely different and you can see it in how they chase and how they bite. It is SERIOUS prey drive, without the play aspect we see so often now. 

Because of what I just said, I think mostly, people have lost the ability to watch SchH and see who the dogs are. While we can never know what they are "thinking" , there are people who can read dogs and many more who cannot. They look at whether the dog bites, how far he flies through the air to catch the helper and how far behind the helper he can pull that sleeve. They do not see the more subtle things that are , in reality, quite huge, especially when you are breeding GSDs. SchH was a breed test, it is not that anymore, especially in regards to the standard.


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## lhczth

Anne, as usual!! :thumbup:


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## carmspack

Laurel if you are around it is Anne's thread that you should read which pretty much reinforces what I have said to you, written to you . Luckily you do belong to a GOOD club and have been exposed to the decoys who recognize and appreciate the clear minded but powerful protection that your young female has . Luckily you have a trainer and decoy at that club that are open to new knowledge . As I said a GOOD club.

" we always looked for training that tapped into the dog's natural instincts"
this unfortunately goes far beyond issues with only the protection phase , also applies to obedience where the dog does not show OBEDIENCE by being naturally biddable wanting to make a positive connection to the handler . Now it is ball and treat driven . Believe me there is a difference - just look at the *Nickolas* in genetic obedience . This not tapping into the natural drives and instincts also applies to natural , instinctive tracking skills , done for the self - reward of being allowed to track . I will use Blast as an example there who was doing concentrated schutzhund tracks , deep nose , dead accurate from the time he was 16 weeks - no food drops because it was soon seen that they were a hindrance not a help, and who at having just entered his 3rd year was an Urban Tracking Dog Excellent - only a handful . 

I want dogs to have these things by breeding , not by training .


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## msvette2u

I have a really dumb question...I mean it seems dumb to me, but when you speak of "defense" drive, do you mean the dog is defending _itself _or the owner/handler??


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## Liesje

Itself, when a dog is in defense he is being for real, which sometimes sounds like a great thing ("oh my dog is the REAL deal!") but too much is not good. I have a dog that will very quickly slide into defense (mostly due to some mistakes on my part with his training) and what that means is he is being reactive when he is working and just doing the minimum he needs to make the threat/helper go away. When you see a dog working really high in defense you kind of question whether the dog actually wants to be there doing the work or is just being provoked into protecting his own butt. A dog that comes out with a strong balance of prey, defense, fight...that dog is confident and in control. He knows how to show power (and restraint when appropriate). Think about it....if a dog is going to chase prey you know he's doing it because he WANTS to and he must think he can catch it and win, otherwise he wouldn't bother giving chase, right? A dog too high in defense is just being provoked into more of a "fight or flight" type response. Mind you, you need *some* defense, and every dog has a point at which he is done and will either fight or flee, but too much defense kind of clouds the dog from being in control of the situation and working with confidence. At least...I think, lol. Anne can probably explain this much better.


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## lsatov

Anne
That was an informative post and summarized many of the issues. In your post you mentioned that prey was introduced for the more serious dog. They had high prey drive but it appeared differently.
Would you please comment on why prey was introduced to these type of dog and how. Also if you could describe what one would see in a training scenerio when using prey with the more serious dog.

Laurel


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## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> Are you implying that a dog biting the decoy makes his mind up what "drive" he/she is in and then acts accordingly?
> 
> If a dog is shot, knifed or even simply punched - do you think that this very act might cause a courageous dog to shift from "prey" to "defense" "drive" (I am assuming that a dog in "defense" is fighting because he thinks his very life is in danger (as I read that somewhere about defense))?
> 
> BTW, I think that some "prey" might very well fight like heck when the dog catches up! Would the dog then have to shift into "defense" or risk losing and/or quitting? I would assume that the same dog would continue to fight.
> 
> But i am assuming (admittedly) that a dog who has the right nerve and courage will fight till he wins, whether we call it "prey" or "defense" but I am not very knowledable about this whole "drive" thing to be sure.
> 
> Is there a visible sign other than the pitch and sound of his bark that would tell even a novice like me whether a dog is in "prey" "defense" or any other drive?


On a phone so have to be short. Humans have the same drives and emotions that serve the same purpose. Dogs decide what drive they are in or are thinking about it directly no more than humans do. 

The human who is strong nerved enough cool under fire but aware of the danger so as to be cautious enough to not be careless, and courageous/aggressive enough to fight back, even when death is a forgone conclusion or after taking a mortal wound, makes the ideal warrior. Dogs are the same. An all prey dog is functionally similar to a soldier who has only shot at man shapes targets and skeet, but doesn't have to hardness to take the actual rigors of combat, and will break down under pressure.


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## hunterisgreat

KJenkins said:


> What leads you to believe that the bite isn't the defeat of the aggressor to the dog?..I mean really how do you know what exactly goes on in a dog's mind....push enough buttons and just about 99.99% of all dogs above ground will at some point disengage and/or get rattled.


The bite could be the defeat... Or it could be just a prey-instinct satisfaction. Both are bites. 

I'd bet there are a larger than 0.01% that will fight till their death


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## wolfstraum

Anne - EXCELLENT Post!!!!!!!!

Said much better than I can!

Lee


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## lesslis

This entire thread is so interesting. 
I do wonder if the type of dog Anne discussed in her last post should be offered to the general public?


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## Mrs.K

lesslis said:


> This entire thread is so interesting.
> I do wonder if the type of dog Anne discussed in her last post should be offered to the general public?


That type of dog has been in the hands of the general public ever since it was first produced. There are so many litters in Germany, where do you think these dogs are all going? 

A German Shepherd should be capable of adapting to normal family life without going all crazy and nuts. 

That being said, there are dogs that should never go into the hands of a family however, most dogs I have come across would not have an issue to live a healthy and active family life without ever seeing a sleeve.


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## Vandal

> I do wonder if the type of dog Anne discussed in her last post should be offered to the general public?


 
Well, I kind of wonder how what I wrote gave someone that impression. Once again, it is clear , that people have no idea about SchH. When you tell a lie long enough, it becomes truth. Just like the woman I talked about who stood up and shouted about SchH being a game; much to my amazement, many people actually believe what she shouted. 


How incredibly sad that SchH trainers have done such a poor job explaining it and worse, how GSD breeders have no idea what a GSD is supposed to be. Sorry to use your quote to say that but really, there is a rather huge need to start to educate people about GSDs. They were INTENDED to be protective dogs with many other capabilities as well. The SchH protection routine, as I said in that post, was designed to not only test whether a dog had those instincts but to ensure the dogs could still THINK when they were in that state of mind. Believe it or not, some of what you can see in protection, can tell you how a dog will react in real life situations. Or at least it used to. The reaction to a reed stick hit and the behaviors a dog would show when experiencing a bit of pain, can be translated into how they would behave in a home if a child fell on them. You could see if that pain made the dog a little nasty and not able to contain himself afterward. Some of the dogs could not out after that because it disturbed them that much. The better dogs would escalate but not in the way I just described. You could see how composed they remained. 
Nowadays, they are mostly not working in a way where we can see that. The training is designed to make them LOOK like they have that ability. Because of what I said, I could make a good arguement that they are more dangerous than they use to be because SchH does not test what is REALLY necessary. It is an entirely different situation when a dog is viewing a "helper" as a bad guy vs when he is not. Just like playing "guns and robbers" is not the same feeling as when someone is trying to break into your house. Much easier to control yourself when it is a game, and biting and chasing a big toy was never what SchH was about.

SchH , IMO, was never intended to be something people dabbled in on weekends. It has been marketed that way in order to create more members for big dog clubs. The show dog crowd does not care for GSDs who act like them, (meaning the head of the SV in Germany), so they watered the SchH test down, removed the Police Trials from the annual Bundessieger trials and replaced it with Agility. This had the effect of attracting completely different types of people. 
They started lying about what SchH is. It’s a sleeve game and now, some years later, MANY people actually believe that is what it always was and that it had NO PURPOSE! It still has a purpose but not like it used to, not at all. This is just fine for some people who enjoy competing in it. I am not judging them as much as I am lamenting about the loss of something that preserved the breed for decades.


To answer the question, yes SOME members of the General Public would do just fine with them. These are usually the people with brains who realize raising a GSD or any other kind of dog where protective capabilities were part of what made up the breed, require management, training and TIME with the dog. 
Sadly, the people have also changed and so many now have somewhat strange expectation of their dogs. Some of that thinking is promoted on this board. 

Here is part of the standard concerning temperament of the GSD. Does this concern anyone? 


> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


Also, a little more trivia. The "Helper" in SchH used to be called an" Agitator". There was a ten point system they used to measure Courage, Hardness and Fighting Drive. Take note of the standard and the words used. Now, we have "helpers" and we have no scale for measuring courage , hardness and fighting drive. It is referred to as "pressure". I know why they changed the words, because words are powerful. It is the same reason the Police Trials are not at the Bunddessieger any longer. All of it was designed to change the entire mentality. There are more cynical things I can say as to why this occurred but I will leave it at that.


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## msvette2u

Anne, this is fascinating stuff.
So the "tougher" a dog is on the field, the better companion he is, because his nerves are unshakable? 
This made them excellent family pets?

So this is also why...in reverse...dogs not proven in Schutzhund may have sketchy temperaments because we're not pushing them...
That was my next question, btw, how does this translate into day to day life, other than as a Police K9 officer...! And you've answered it...


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## Vandal

> Would you please comment on why prey was introduced to these type of dog and how.


Prey work was used to teach the dog to channel their drives. We channeled the aggression into prey and that does not mean it was all about the sleeve. That is the Reader's Digest version. Get the book that was recommended and read it. I have not read it, ( just glanced through a friend's book), but I cannot imagine it doesn't explain it. 

The problem we see now is the dogs are not working in the right drive, ( often due to genetics), and then people "channel" play into prey. Or it is all prey work.


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## lesslis

Anne, very much in agreement with your posts. My dry sarcasm offered nothing to this thread. My comment should have focused more on how humans/buyers see a GSD. Seen more then my share of unbalanced dogs that owners think are great ambassadors of the breed.


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## Catu

msvette2u said:


> Anne, this is fascinating stuff.
> So the "tougher" a dog is on the field, the better companion he is, because his nerves are unshakable?
> This made them excellent family pets?
> 
> So this is also why...in reverse...dogs not proven in Schutzhund may have sketchy temperaments because we're not pushing them...
> That was my next question, btw, how does this translate into day to day life, other than as a Police K9 officer...! And you've answered it...


One pet peeve of me when people bashes Schutzhund is people asking for dogs "with not too much drive" Like drives, which by itself means nothing, has anything to do... when they really mean "I don'r want a neurotic dog that can't settle.

It reminds me a graffiti I saw once that said "NO TO THE ECONOMY" Okaaaay..... you can be against socialism, or against capitalism, but how can you be against economy?


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## cliffson1

Good post, Anne.....this pretty much sums up what I've seen over the years.


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## Mrs.K

Catu said:


> One pet peeve of me when people bashes Schutzhund is people asking for dogs "with not too much drive" Like drives, which by itself means nothing, has anything to do... when they really mean "I don'r want a neurotic dog that can't settle.
> 
> It reminds me a graffiti I saw once that said "NO TO THE ECONOMY" Okaaaay..... you can be against socialism, or against capitalism, but how can you be against economy?


No kidding. I don't get it either. Drive has nothing to do with the ability to settle at home. Makes me shake my head every time I read or hear it.


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## carmspack

when I had guests over the other day , discussing the possibility of schutzhund training , and which books I would recommend I once again thought of Helmut Raisers book and this thread.
So the answer to "Carmen, have you read Raiser's book?"
is yes , and I still maintain that Raiser was instrumental into advancing prey stimulation as a motivation in training to a science . This changed the nature of sport and has and is changing the genetics of the dog , by of course, selection . Raiser had his own mentor in Bernhard Mannel , who also influenced Bieler . You can not argue with the results these trainers and others since then have received on the BSP podium . Outstanding.
But the work is largely shaped by prey drive.

"
It does matter. A dog in high fight/aggression, when I stab him or punch him in the face, will fight harder."

continuing " A dog in high prey will be rattled and potentially disengage... cause prey doesn't fight back like that. " --- exactly the point , because in the hunt if there is too much fight back the "hunter" will back off preventing himself from being injured - injuries which can be potentially fatal . Also, the "hunter" will deliberately select and isolate , the young, the weak, the ill , who have more inability to fight back.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Carmen are you saying that Helmuts promotion of training in prey is responsible for weaker nerved dogs today? Not saying it was intentional, just wondering if this was an unintended result of his approach to training?
I have always understood the basic concept to be you do the initial bite work in prey building the dogs confidence and intensity then you start incorporating pressure from time to time to test the dog and further build his confidence.
Is the difference in how things are done today that there is no transition from prey to defense or not enough?


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## hunterisgreat

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Carmen are you saying that Helmuts promotion of training in prey is responsible for weaker nerved dogs today? Not saying it was intentional, just wondering if this was an unintended result of his approach to training?
> I have always understood the basic concept to be you do the initial bite work in prey building the dogs confidence and intensity then you start incorporating pressure from time to time to test the dog and further build his confidence.
> Is the difference in how things are done today that there is no transition from prey to defense or not enough?


No, just that starting in prey is more effective. Less stress = faster learning. Teach the exercise, then teach it to be done aggressively. That's why in karate you do kata slow and accurate without a sparing partner... Learn it first, then learn to do it under stress (sparing), then it will likely still work under extreme stress (getting jumped in an alley)


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## Blitzkrieg1

So back in the day they would put pressure on the dog from day 1?


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## x11

what i cannot determine is if there is an element of back in my day the dogs were soooo much harder and 'realer" than they are now. 

not saying this is the case but hard to actually prove much when it all happened before YT etc.

everything seemed to be better "back in the day" - i remain somewhat skeptical, i mean surely those lines that were so much better still exist, if they don't the people belittling today's dogs are surely the cause of the downfall for not maintaining, you can't blame someone who arrived today for the previous 100 years of breeding??/


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## Blitzkrieg1

x11 said:


> what i cannot determine is if there is an element of back in my day the dogs were soooo much harder and 'realer" than they are now.
> 
> not saying this is the case but hard to actually prove much when it all happened before YT etc.
> 
> everything seemed to be better "back in the day" - i remain somewhat skeptical, i mean surely those lines that were so much better still exist, if they don't the people belittling today's dogs are surely the cause of the downfall for not maintaining, you can't blame someone who arrived today for the previous 100 years of breeding??/


You can to a degree if the current trend in buyers which drive the demand for a certain type of dog lead to more production of said dog. Eg: oversized, lowdrive couch potato, weak nerves...

Many people buying a GSD now a days dont value the traits that should be present in an ideal GSD. They basically want a Golden in a GSD body. 

I do think there was an element of common sense and realism that was around back in the day that is slowly fading out of our society. Then again this is just my opinion so perhaps Im wrong.


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## x11

wwwoooow, blitz yr post has directly just slammed the gsd breeding community as money driven breed to sell _*** garbage*** _. 

_ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _ i don't even doubt what yr saying is not true but it does say a whole lot of implications.


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## carmspack

a breed, any breed , always evolves , whether for good or for bad -- In the 70's I saw American line show dogs doing schutzhund with more conviction then many German show lines today .

In the evolution a trend dictates for a period -- erect ears, certain colours, certain sires -- and the progeny reflect the flaws of those choices . The breed from its inception was brought to crisis points more than once - even back in the day of von Stephanitz where he had to enter with a stiff broom to clean up the situation. 

what we have lost in the breed , for one , is active aggression - even the wording intimidates some -- these were the dogs that could negotiate fight and come out unscathed - resilient .

There is a book which I keep recommending -- Bred for Perfection


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## x11

carmspack so why is that so incompatible with today's market, does it also bring with it necessary negative traits that would be incompatible in general society today?


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## Mrs.K

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> So back in the day they would put pressure on the dog from day 1?


No. 

All the methods you see today, putting a ball under your chin, spitting food out of your mouth, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, pinning a ball underneath your armpit, all that was already present back in the day. All that, has been "re-invented" from business savy dog handlers and been sold as the new, innovative training styles.

They may have tested a dogs courage and how much pressure they can take every once in a while during training and the trial. I remember when the bamboo sticks were used instead of softsticks. And sure, there were people that would constantly put pressure on a dog and many many many dogs broke under that pressure. But not everyone did that. 

Honestly, every generation will say "Oh my...the good old times." 
Our grandparents said it, our parents said it, we said it and our kids will say it, the future kids will say it...


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## ayoitzrimz

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, every generation will say "Oh my...the good old times."
> Our grandparents said it, our parents said it, we said it and our kids will say it, the future kids will say it...


That right there, probably sums it up... We always remember selectively


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## Blitzkrieg1

x11 said:


> wwwoooow, blitz yr post has directly just slammed the gsd breeding community as money driven breed to sell _*** garbage*** _.
> 
> _ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _ i don't even doubt what yr saying is not true but it does say a whole lot of implications.


Don't get me wrong I like money as much as the next person so I try to avoid the sanctimonius high horse poop!. 
I am just saying that people nowaday seem to expect less from their dogs, and this has translated in the GSD world to less pressure on breeders to actually produce a workable dog..in my view anyways.
Strangely I have noticed an increased demand or interest in the working type GSD. Seems like more and more classifieds lately with sables all touted as European Champions..whatever that means, lol. I do see some legit looking WL pups though. Not a pedigree guru by any stretch so I can't say whether or not theres any quality behind them.


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## cliffson1

SCH is like Politics......in the beginning (beside breed test), it was a partime venture that assisted in making meaningful contributions to society;.....today it is either a vocation until itself, or a prerequisite for making a lot of money.


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## wolfstraum

x11 said:


> carmspack so why is that so incompatible with today's market, does it also bring with it necessary negative traits that would be incompatible in general society today?


I would not say it is not compatible with today's market....there are many sectors of "today's market"- you have to look at where pups end up....there was a facebook thread I think that talked about the numbers of GSDs bred - last statistics published had them at No 2 for registrations...last break down I saw was 49,000 litters, and 114,000 individual registrations - in my mind - that means ALOT of dogs not registered and the majority - the very large majority - are BYB dogs with no rhyme or reason for the match. So the market is really more for inexpensive pet homes....the market for well bred higher priced dogs is much smaller....and the market segment we seem to discuss most here is for the European bred dog....which through the wonderful  auspices of the AKC allowing any dog with a certificate to be bred, is slowly but surely spreading into the "sunday paper" classified ads breeder.

The social aggression aspect is still out there....the DDR lines are being bred like crazy for pet homes....not for sport homes - the "look" is what is valued here

The market is big for the black and red/tan "traditional" (if 30 years out of 110 makes a tradition ) GSD that can be a pet....again, bred by many BYB and savvy business breeders for the pet market...more than serious breeders who show adn title....going into the priority of these breeders is another subject - but yes, when you place all your emphasis on one aspect - in this case "anatomy" - it is usually to the detriment of other expected characteristics and the segment of the breed loses the balance needed to meet the entire "standard".


....the Working line market seems to be driven to produce "Extreme drive" while only a small percentage of WL pups actually go to working homes...the rest go to pet homes....many times inexperienced pet homes who are overfaced with the management of a high energy youngster - at least without aggression, some of these dogs succeed as pets - far too many end up on a fast track to an early demise. 


Luckily there are some breeders who endeavor to produce a balanced dog with the characteristics which the breed is idealized to show - with varying degrees of sucess.....those are not usually the breeders with big kennels with 6 or 12 litters a year and their own stud dogs...it is a small segment....there are a handful of breeders on this forum who strive to produce this.....and there are many who are in the US who think they do yet are still striving for that 'extreme' sport dog and sometimes the litter is way more extreme in prey or aggression because the breeder wants "names" connected to the BSP/WUSV in quantity without really understanding what comes from where. Too often breeders and litters get recommended here which IMO are not suitable to the posters who come on inquiring for dogs....if a board member is not interested in the sport or some long term training, it is not doing them or the breed a favor to push litters with high sport breeding because the website is nice or the dog is gorgeous ..... or someone has a cute puppy connected to the kennel. 

The market for LE dogs brings in European dogs via brokers.....yes, some dogs from US breedings do go to LE - particularly to small departments with small budgets who want a K9 on board for PR.....some do well too! But the big departments, the cities deal within a circle of brokers where the dogs are older, testable and often do not even have paperwork coming from Europe with them....

Unfortunately - the laws of supply and demand seem to have dumbed down the breed to fit the largest segment of the market.

Lee


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## hunterisgreat

x11 said:


> what i cannot determine is if there is an element of back in my day the dogs were soooo much harder and 'realer" than they are now.
> 
> not saying this is the case but hard to actually prove much when it all happened before YT etc.
> 
> everything seemed to be better "back in the day" - i remain somewhat skeptical, i mean surely those lines that were so much better still exist, if they don't the people belittling today's dogs are surely the cause of the downfall for not maintaining, you can't blame someone who arrived today for the previous 100 years of breeding??/


Not coming from me. I'm too new to have a "back in the day". On my first dogs now


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## Rosie428

codmaster said:


> If a ScH dog is truly being trained in protection - why would the training be so sleeve oriented to the point where the dog (in the local club that i am in now) is trained to be pretty much oriented to the sleeve (even when the helper sheds the sleeve and the dog then runs off the field or sometimes just carries it around the field)?
> 
> Is it simply more of a game now than true protection work?
> 
> Would a ScH trained dog be more (or less if the perp doesn't have a sleeve on) or less likely to really protect the owner?
> 
> I am assuming with this question that the dog itself has the courage to fight and is not shy or soft or a spook, of course.
> 
> 
> 
> I have recently returned to ScH after an absence from it for over 25 years and it just seems much much different. I.E. no temperament test of new dogs for one thing to begin the bite work


Unfortunately, the no temperment testing falls on the breeders and clubs who allow these dogs to get a bite!

The important thing to remember is that Schutzhund is a sport now, but was developed to evaluate the German Shepherd. Ideally, dogs have an on/off switch. The protection is a routine, not real life. It is meant to demonstrate control in all situations, even when the dog knows there is someone lurking. 


For some dogs, its is all a game. The sleeve is dropped, and the dog does not know what to do with itself. For other dogs, every bite is serious. It has a ton to do with genetics and upbringing. 

A good dog will protect you when the situation calls for it, but not without good reason.


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> SCH is like Politics......in the beginning (beside breed test), it was a partime venture that assisted in making meaningful contributions to society;.....today it is either a vocation until itself, or a prerequisite for making a lot of money.


There is a lot of politics involved but there are working line people who are standing up against politics, corruption and trial manipulations. 

www.initiativgruppe-sv.de


There is a lot happening in Germany right now but I'm not sure how much you actually hear about that stuff in the US.


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## onyx'girl

copying the link translation. Mrs K. is this translation correct? I copied it here in case it somehow dissappears magically as we know controversial internet postings do! 
_News
Reaction of the Initiative Group-SV
Monday, 21 January 2013 at 06:37 clock
We received a letter from lawyers has become known in which, initiated by Hartmut Setecki and Nicholas Waltrich, on the initiative group-SV, a value judgment is that we can not relate. Since each member of our group here is affected, yesterday we sent subsequent letters to the President, Dr. Henke, Vice President Mr. Nicholas Waltrich and the Chief Executive Hartmut Setecki. We hope to receive a timely response here.

We refer to the accessible for each letter of the RA firm Lausen on behalf of SV eV and Messrs Waltrich and Setecki personally, which deals in content and in particular for the assessment of the membership of the Initiative Group-SV. 
Membership in the Initiative Group-SV can obviously evaluate each person and judge for yourself. With real dismay, we have to remove the members of the initiative group-SV This letter, however, that membership in our group as something "ehrverletzendes" and thus as the reputation of a person which harm circumstance is evaluated. Particularly inappropriate, we find the fact that the initiators letter from the Chief Executive of the SV Association and vice president of the SV eV, Messrs. Hartmut Setecki and Nicholas Waltrich are. 
The objective of the initiative group-SV is on our website Initiativgruppe SV clearly defined, namely consistently fight fraud in the SV and conclude with applications gaps in the Statute of the SV, have made ​​the fraud possible. This means we are committed openly and actively encouraged by what Mr. Setecki is paid by us and the other SV members and Mr. Waltrich and the whole board elected were: to improve by the fraud and its fatal effects damaged image of our society, create conditions that give the scam chance. 
This initiative have already joined over 260 SV-members, among whom, and currently more than 130 officers from the SV almost 30 SV-judges. 
Our President, Dr. Henke, in his speech at the National Breed Show 2012 in Ulm clearly documented the view of the Board that of fraud and racketeering in SV eV have no business and tackle it is. His slogan "Genetic instead Monetik "has impressed itself upon many, and has stuck. Not least because this will of the overwhelming majority of members of SV eV also wished Sun 
that there are loads of fraud and profiteering of health and usability of our race in our society, unfortunately is a sad fact indisputable. Any prior sanctions or temporary offices locks prove this. It is also a fact that the possibilities of the club's management, here to take adequate resources and effective measures are limited or given opportunities provided by the statutes ways unfortunately trodden not consistently enough so not to the fraud coverage, ie nationwide, weitestgehendst to . prevent Also, former press officer SV, Mr. Voltz calls, in his article in the latest SV-Zeitung, "finally to provide an efficient and oriented to the rule of law association jurisdiction on the way" 
The idea of the initiative group-SV, their goal is to jointly with many like-minded people, prevent with honest sports fans simply by being present at test events that this dog training degree attests that are not justified, that tests for dogs are written that were not even in this test on the court. addition to an information to members shall be made, in what way the democratic development can be realized in the club. Proposals for amendments to the Articles of Association shall be submitted, which are likely just to counter these undesirable developments and to improve the breed contribute. 
If the initiative group-SV then by high-ranking officials the association is classified agierend kind of "enemies", as against SV eV, this can either be just a lack of information about the objectives of our group or as an unwillingness to face the facts, perceived to be. 
contrast, would argue that Mr. Henke and Mr. Setecki were informed of the formation of the group and initially expressed positive about it. However, they are contrary to the statements in the above-mentioned lawyer letter. 
The initiative group-SV with all its members is shown here in this letter from the lawyers as simplistic damaging. For us, the letter reads as if it set for each member of this society is an insult to be associated with us. This we feel is a level of criticism of the can not believe we are that it actually reflects the opinion of the entire club management. 
we request urgently on behalf of the members of the initiative group-SV by the board of SV eV an immediate statement about where letter from the lawyers Lausen for SV eV emitted as a whole value judgments about the initiative group-SV. 
Messrs. Nicholas Waltrich and Hartmut Setecki we ask as much a representation of the grounds for their personal value judgment on the initiative group-SV concrete. Why, Sir, you subject us to act against SV eV leave us as "the other side" and pose as opponents of the SV eV? 
Thank you in advance for a prompt response. 
Sincerely 
The Initiative Group SV- 
Ina Wittfoth and Katrin Mechling_


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## Mrs.K

It is a good enough translation to give a general idea what the Initiative group is all about. I'm a member of the Initiative myself to support their effort in fighting fraud within the SV.


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## cliffson1

@mrsK....I think you misunderstood my post about the corellation to politics....I meant that SCH is like politics in that years ago politics was a part time function for individuals, that they performed to assist society. In the past SCH was something a dog acquired in a journey to do many other function and many other types of training. Today ....politics is a full time lifelong vocation for too many politicians and money controls their vote and actions. Well in SCH, it is now a lifelong vocation(as is showing), that is all the breeder focuses on and the dogs do for their life....and it too is primarily motivated by money and points. Many lifelong SCH dogs that are heavily campaigned and bred are never exposed to anything but the SCH field. We have turned a quarter horse into a racehorse....and many consider these people the only experts in the breed whether it is sport or show. Just an observation, nothing more


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