# AKC American Lines



## knwilk44

So, I've been talking with a friend of mine and she told me about this supposed "breeder" breeding AKC american line GSD's and supposedly they're making very good protection dogs. Is this a common trait with the American line dogs? How are American line dogs generally around strangers, etc. and how well would they normally fare in protection training? I'm in the process of learning all the different lines and normal characteristics for each line.


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## Xeph

> Is this a common trait with the American line dogs?


Nnnnope. At least, not if you mean AKC show lines. American lines could mean anything if you don't specify really



> How are American line dogs generally around strangers, etc. and how well would they normally fare in protection training?


Depends on the individuals. My girls are very social, with one being more confident and outgoing than the other. They don't normally do very well in protection training due to a lack of nerve, but as long as the dog is stable, they can participate in the sport safely.

My little Mogwai is currently doing a bit of bitework for funsies, and we will hopefully go for her BH this fall if I don't chicken out.


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## Andaka

Mine tend to have good nerve and drive, but I can't say that they would do well in protection as I have never participated in the sport and therefore can't make the proper comparison.

However, I have not found much correlation between "social" and "protective". One of my most social dogs was also the one I most counted on to protect me while traveling alone.


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## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> Depends on the individuals. My girls are very social, with one being more confident and outgoing than the other. They don't normally do very well in protection training due to a lack of nerve, but as long as the dog is stable, they can participate in the sport safely.


Same with my girls. Social, confident, outgoing. Good with strangers, kids. Show dogs that are used to lots of chaos at shows. I think they could do most sports, but protection work, probably not.


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## dogfaeries

Andaka said:


> However, I have not found much correlation between "social" and "protective". One of my most social dogs was also the one I most counted on to protect me while traveling alone.



I found this to be true of my Dobes when they matured. They were social dogs that were pretty good at playing "what's wrong with this picture". 

My GSDs are still young, so we'll see...


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## gagsd

I have a completely pet line GSD, that an international level schutzhund competitor said was a "nice dog." this was actually high praise! This person told more than one handler their expensive import was "crap."

So it can happen.


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## Lucy Dog

Is it possible? Yeah.

Is it common? No.


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## codmaster

Lucy Dog said:


> Is it possible? Yeah.
> 
> Is it common? No.


Very true, I suspect.

Same as you probably wouldn't go looking in German WL for a seeing eye or maybe herding dog. Not especially bred for the needed characteristics.

Even though the GSD breed can do all of these nifty jobs - not everty individual GSD dog can (nor should they be expected to!). Breeders all have (or should have anyway!) certain things in mind when they do a breeding!

BTW, I have a 4yo male GSD from a top US show kennel who was a "TOP" show prospect when we got him at 7 wo. And he did very well as a show puppy usually taking first in his class (then medical issues kind of made us take a long hiatus from the AKC show ring).

Now we have joined the local ScH club and have been working him there and according to the head trainer, Baron is doing very very well esp. coming into it as an adult without any of the prep puppy training.

So it can happen!


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> Same as you probably wouldn't go looking in German WL for a seeing eye or maybe herding dog.


What HGH dogs in this country *aren't* working line dogs?

Can American line GSDs do SchH? Sure! But I've personally never seen one. I know of a few but they are not breeding dogs. I don't know of any American line breeders that actually put Schutzhund titles on their dogs, only ones that advertise that their dogs could do Schutzhund. That's very different, for me at least. If I buy a dog for doing Schutzhund then I want to see the breeder and the breeding dogs doing Schutzhund.


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## codmaster

Liesje said:


> *What HGH dogs in this country *aren't* working line dogs?*
> 
> *Who mentioned HGH titled dogs? Maybe going back and reading my post again would have saved you the effort of trying to respond to something that was not there, maybe? When most folks (me included) refer to german WL we are generally, unless specified,are talking about the WL dogs doing ScH and the like type of dogs. I hope now that you can follow what I was referring to, would you agree that one wouldn't look for a Seeing Eye or Herding dog among the WL since there would be a better source for these specific type of jobs?*
> 
> Can American line GSDs do SchH? Sure! But I've personally never seen one. I know of a few but they are not breeding dogs. I don't know of any American line breeders that actually put Schutzhund titles on their dogs, only ones that advertise that their dogs could do Schutzhund. That's very different, for me at least. *If I buy a dog for doing Schutzhund then I want to see the breeder and the breeding dogs doing Schutzhund*.


Thank you! That is *EXACTLY* what I was stating that you appear to disagree with above - look at the best source for a dog to do a certain kind of activity.

BTW, are you sure that the *Breeder* has to do ScH? They can't use a trainer to do it with the dogs that they have bred? 

Seems like you would quickly disqualify a lot of really good dogs with that attitude! And you might have even more of a problem with so many dogs having co-breeders these days.


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## martemchik

I'm one that hates when people start generalizing lines...so I'll tell you this much, go and see the breeder's dogs and those particular lines. I've seen many well balanced American show lines, that although might not have the drive for Schutzhund, would protect their owner to the death. Also, what do you mean by protection? An 80lb German Shepherd will deter most crime no matter if its the sweetest dog or the meanest dog, people generally don't go after the pedestrian walking a GSD, and a robber won't climb into a home that has a GSD in it because its loud and you have no idea what that dog will do.

To train one in protection is definitely possible, its just harder and won't be as good as a working line in the same program. So when people start generalizing the ASL and saying it doesn't have the nerve, maybe those few dogs they met haven't, but I belong to a club with mostly ASL who have good nerve and make great dogs. The club actually just got a beautiful dark-sable female working line that is the most skittish dog I have seen in my 2 years at the club. So don't base it off of the name, look at the actual dogs and see how they are. But really, first answer what it means to be protective...most GSDs won't allow someone into their territory and will put up a fight, no matter the line.


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> Even though the GSD breed can do all of these nifty jobs - not everty individual GSD dog can (nor should they be expected to!). Breeders all have (or should have anyway!) certain things in mind when they do a breeding!


Now I'm confused or I misunderstood what you wrote. 

I thought breeding for one specific "type" of dog, whether to produce dogs with more aggression for Schutzhund or ones that will excell in the ring is what got the breed in trouble to begin with. 

Shouldn't breeders have the total dog in mind when they breed, knowing that each dog is going to have different degrees of natural instinct and ability within a litter? Shouldn't a Schutzhund dog have many of the same qualities as a good herding dog and vice versa?


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## Xeph

> Also, what do you mean by protection?


I mean a dog that would actually engage a real threat, and not run away if the pressure were put on.


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## wolfstraum

DOGS are protective of their homes and family - regardless of breed! Cocker Spaniels and toy breeds have been known to bark and act aggressive to an intruder - lots of organizations/sites that give awards for "Hero" type behavior out there have stories of other breeds of dogs doing heroic acts!!! There is a vast difference between any dog responding instinctively to a threat to its home and family and training a dog - with all the OBEDIENCE and control needed to perform in a protection sport well enough to justify that dog being used in a breeding program.

I have seen tons of dogs (other breeds, as well as A & WG SH)who do protection work (ie - IPO/schutzhund routines) but cannot perform with precision and attention and with joy in the obedience work in both phases II and III. There is much much more to IPO than being able to bark or grip a sleeve.

Lee


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## Catu

codmaster said:


> BTW, are you sure that the *Breeder* has to do ScH? They can't use a trainer to do it with the dogs that they have bred?


For me at least... ABSOLUTELY YES. Nop, it's not the same hiring a trainer than working the dog yourself. It has been long discussed the merit of "titled dogs" and the general consensus is that the path is more important than the goal. What the breeder learns about his/her own dog while reaching the titles, the knowledge about the weak and the strong points of their own dogs 

Titles itself are the first thing I look when I see a pedigree, it is only the starting point of many, many, many question I want to do, If the breeder can't answer them, that title is barely better than a bought one. I'm sure this opinion is not very popular among SL breeders that only get the titles to get their KKl ratings...

I still don't get why HGH is not herding.

Oh, and the only GSD guide dog I know is actually a WL one.


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## Lucy Dog

wolfstraum said:


> DOGS are protective of their homes and family - regardless of breed! Cocker Spaniels and toy breeds have been known to bark and act aggressive to an intruder - lots of organizations/sites that give awards for "Hero" type behavior out there have stories of other breeds of dogs doing heroic acts!!! There is a vast difference between any dog responding instinctively to a threat to its home and family and training a dog - with all the OBEDIENCE and control needed to perform in a protection sport well enough to justify that dog being used in a breeding program.
> 
> I have seen tons of dogs (other breeds, as well as A & WG SH)who do protection work (ie - IPO/schutzhund routines) but cannot perform with precision and attention and with joy in the obedience work in both phases II and III. There is much much more to IPO than being able to bark or grip a sleeve.
> 
> Lee


My parents have a 13 week old Havanese puppy. Friendly as can be... your typical loveable puppy with everyone. But when someone walks in or knocks at the door... you immediately here a roof roof from him. Just a couple warning barks, that's it. You can tell he's instinctively doing it. 

I don't believe they will be doing schutzhund with that little 6 pound monster.


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## LARHAGE

Catu said:


> For me at least... ABSOLUTELY YES. Nop, it's not the same hiring a trainer than working the dog yourself. It has been long discussed the merit of "titled dogs" and the general consensus is that the path is more important than the goal. What the breeder learns about his/her own dog while reaching the titles, the knowledge about the weak and the strong points of their own dogs
> 
> Titles itself are the first thing I look when I see a pedigree, it is only the starting point of many, many, many question I want to do, If the breeder can't answer them, that title is barely better than a bought one. I'm sure this opinion is not very popular among SL breeders that only get the titles to get their KKl ratings...
> 
> I still don't get why HGH is not herding.
> 
> Oh, and the only GSD guide dog I know is actually a WL one.


 
There are 2 WGSL guide dogs at my University, and my male just sired a litter for Leader Dogs.


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> BTW, are you sure that the *Breeder* has to do ScH? They can't use a trainer to do it with the dogs that they have bred?
> 
> Seems like you would quickly disqualify a lot of really good dogs with that attitude! And you might have even more of a problem with so many dogs having co-breeders these days.


It's a matter of personal preference. No, I will not buy a dog for Schutzhund from a breeder who does not actually DO Schutzhund with THEIR dogs, just like I wouldn't expect an AKC specialty/show person to buy a show prospect form a breeder that doesn't show dogs. Likewise I won't buy my next computer from the fencing contractor either. 

Breeders can breed whatever they want and do whatever they want with their dogs - it's a free country and I actually happen to enjoy the popularity and versatility of the GSD breed - but when it comes to my own preference purchasing dogs, of course I'm going to buy from breeders that have the same interests and breed for the traits I am looking for, so yes I "disqualify" probably 4/5 of available GSDs out there as not being the right ones for me, but I'm sure they are perfectly well suited for someone else looking for the types of temperament and accomplishments they have. None of the dogs or litters I've been interested in have been "co-bred" so I'm not even sure what that has to do with anything. Like I said it's a free country, people can breed their dogs as they please.


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## Liesje

Also to me protection is about a lot more than whether a dog will engage/bite/grip/whatever word you like. I know a lot of dogs that WILL bite and love to bite and bite hard and full but are not (in my opinion) very aggressive or protective dogs. For many dogs, biting is secure. I'm more interested to see how the dog responds without biting or what sort of follow-up the dog presents when it is pushed through the bite. What does the dog do when biting is not an option and yet he's still under perceived real pressure? Will he stay or will he go? My best-biting dog as far as being able to strike hard, fast, maintain a full and crushing grip at this point is barely protective of me (he only acts protective if I give him some sort of body language cue that something is up, or he sees the other really protective dog starting to alert or react).

To me visual deterrence and protection are not the same thing, but I think the former is exceedingly useful.


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## wolfstraum

I have 3 females (2 of my breeding - Hexe and Kyra, 1 imported, Ziberia/"Panther" of related lines -a Xito granddaughter) with friends who are doing the training....I see them, I talk at length with the friends, and those females will eventually be bred - and pups carry my kennel name - there will be a "co-breeder" on one of the females at least - does not make the pups any different from those I breed "alone"....due to logistics and availability, having females with those three people makes more sense and helps my program as I don't have the resources available that they have to title the dogs...

And Paul -   - you prove my point! A dog does not need to do sch/IPO to show protective instincts!

Lee


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## Liesje

But Lee YOU bred those dogs, and they are doing Schutzhund since you're hospitalized, and if I recall your dogs have already produced nice dogs for Schutzhund. To me that's a far cry from a breeder who has never trained and titled a dog to SchH3 on their own and isn't active doing so breeding dogs that don't have any Schutzhund titles at all advertising that their dogs are suitable for "police work, Schutzhund, search and rescue...." The pups from your current females aren't different because they are from the same program that is actually involved in Schutzhund (whether or not it's you doing every minute of the work) and breeding Schutzhund trained and titled dogs.

What ASL breeders are active in Schutzhund and have a program that values the training and puts titles on the dogs? Someone PM me because I'm curious to know. If the dogs are naturally protective and have the instinct and drive of a good shepherd then they should be viable Schutzhund prospects (maybe not podium dogs but that's OK).


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## martemchik

Liesje said:


> What ASL breeders are active in Schutzhund and have a program that values the training and puts titles on the dogs? Someone PM me because I'm curious to know. If the dogs are naturally protective and have the instinct and drive of a good shepherd then they should be viable Schutzhund prospects (maybe not podium dogs but that's OK).


I don't know if this is where you're going with this comment but in my opinion what you are doing is implying Schutzhund is higher ranking than conformation showing in a ring (which to you it is). I believe it would be almost impossible to train a dog in Schutzhund and also get its championship in a viable amount of time in order to breed it (even if it had the perfect drive/conformation for both things). There is just not enough time in a day to work a dog in both venues and compete on a high level.

The reason people don't do Schutzhund with ASL dogs is because its more difficult and you'll never be able to "win." Which lets face it, matters a lot to the human ego. ASL breeders don't breed for Schutzhund because there just aren't that many people that do Schutzhund in this country. So I don't see anything wrong with breeding shepherds for the public that embody everything the standard sets out, but lacking in the working ability which leads to more people being able to own one (I know this has been discussed thousands of times on this forum, but lets face it the breeding practices in this country won't change). I would rather have all the bybs stop breeding their imported working lines, or their purchased working lines because sable is the hot color of today, than have the ASL breeders stop doing what they're doing. Many of them are very responsible, and do all the things a good breeder should, and to knock them down because they don't compete in YOUR sport of choice is wrong IMO. But I do understand why YOU would never purchase a dog from one of them (I wouldn't either).


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## ayoitzrimz

martemchik said:


> I don't know if this is where you're going with this comment but in my opinion what you are doing is implying Schutzhund is higher ranking than conformation showing in a ring (which to you it is). I believe it would be almost impossible to train a dog in Schutzhund and also get its championship in a viable amount of time in order to breed it (even if it had the perfect drive/conformation for both things). There is just not enough time in a day to work a dog in both venues and compete on a high level.
> 
> The reason people don't do Schutzhund with ASL dogs is because its more difficult and you'll never be able to "win." Which lets face it, matters a lot to the human ego. ASL breeders don't breed for Schutzhund because there just aren't that many people that do Schutzhund in this country. *So I don't see anything wrong with breeding shepherds for the public that embody everything the standard sets out, but lacking in the working ability which leads to more people being able to own one* (I know this has been discussed thousands of times on this forum, but lets face it the breeding practices in this country won't change). I would rather have all the bybs stop breeding their imported working lines, or their purchased working lines because sable is the hot color of today, than have the ASL breeders stop doing what they're doing. Many of them are very responsible, and do all the things a good breeder should, and to knock them down because they don't compete in YOUR sport of choice is wrong IMO. But I do understand why YOU would never purchase a dog from one of them (I wouldn't either).


I'm sorry but working ability IS in the standard... if a GSD lacks in working ability then by definition it cannot embody everything the standard sets out.

Also, Schutzhund is not Lies's sport of choice but rather a breed suitability test created by Max Von Stephanitz (you probably know who he is but if anyone doesn't - he's credited as the creator the GSD breed among other things) to judge the working ability, temperament, and drive of German Shepherds potentially used as breeding stock.


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## martemchik

ayoitzrimz said:


> I'm sorry but working ability IS in the standard... if a GSD lacks in working ability then by definition it cannot embody everything the standard sets out.


I think I just used the wrong language, not lacking but maybe just has less than your average working line dog.

It just gets annoying reading all the ASL bashing on this forum and no one ever touches on the working line dogs that have way too much drive or no off switch because those dogs get 299 on their Schutzhund trials.


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## Xeph

> I'm sorry but working ability IS in the standard... if a GSD lacks in working ability then by definition it cannot embody everything the standard sets out.


I agree. I like my American show lines, but I require all my dogs to at least compete in some sort of performance events. Low drive dogs are not fun to work with or live with. They have no inclination to do anything.

I don't want a couch potato. I want a German Shepherd Dog.



> but maybe just has less than your average working line dog.


I'm finding my working line puppy to be pretty average, and he's not at all unmanageable. In fact, he's been easier than my older show line bitch. He's destined for service work, which requires a good amount of energy (endurance), intelligence, and independence, as well as the ability to settle in strange environments.

Honestly, anybody that was the tiniest bit dog savvy would be able to handle my puppy. I call him a heathen, but he's really not a difficult dog in the slightest.


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## cliffson1

Its really not about the lines ....although it is. It should be about the breeder breeding for dogs that can continue to keep the German Shepherd a service dog. Show and sport are hobbies and as long as the "HOBBY" isn't what people are breeding for....as the originator stated....the breed will be fine. 
Xeph made a comment that many people missed and she is right....there are breeders of American lines that can do protection, guide work and law Enforcement work. They are not American Show lines, but long time American breeders that didn't fall victim to the Lance/Sundance craze, and didn't fall victim to not using imported dogs if they saw one that would enhance the service qualities they bred for. 
We should never breed for show or sport.....but there are many new experts today that don't understand that.....so the lines and breed is what it is!!!!


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## martemchik

Xeph said:


> I agree. I like my American show lines, but I require all my dogs to at least compete in some sort of performance events. Low drive dogs are not fun to work with or live with. They have no inclination to do anything.


That's exactly it, most of the breeders at my club do get their dogs into obedience or rally once they're done with the show circuit. But no one gives any credit to those events. On this forum, if you're not doing Schutzhund, you're no better than a byb.


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## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> Its really not about the lines ....although it is. It should be about the breeder breeding for dogs that can continue to keep the German Shepherd a service dog. Show and sport are hobbies and as long as the "HOBBY" isn't what people are breeding for....as the originator stated....the breed will be fine.


I think that's exactly what the breed needs, but human ego gets in the way and we want to be the best at even our hobbies, so we breed for the extremes without thinking about the fact that just being "average" and conforming to the standard should be good enough.


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## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> Its really not about the lines ....although it is. It should be about the breeder breeding for dogs that can continue to keep the German Shepherd a service dog. Show and sport are hobbies and as long as the "HOBBY" isn't what people are breeding for....as the originator stated....the breed will be fine.
> Xeph made a comment that many people missed and she is right....there are breeders of American lines that can do protection, guide work and law Enforcement work. They are not American Show lines, but long time American breeders that didn't fall victim to the Lance/Sundance craze, and didn't fall victim to not using imported dogs if they saw one that would enhance the service qualities they bred for.
> We should never breed for show or sport.....but there are many new experts today that don't understand that.....so the lines and breed is what it is!!!!


As usual, very well said Sir. I just had this conversation the other day.


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## cliffson1

Nobody ever criticizes the WL or sport lines???????Lotta selective reading going on.....I get tired of accurate reporting of any type of line in general being labelled as bashing.....when the majority of dogs, of any type; fail to show deficient characteristics.....people will stop labelling them(cause then they look stupid for not seeing what the whole world sees), but when people fail to acknowledge traits or lack of traits that is plain to most "reasonable" people.....then they look and sound stupid.JMO


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## wolfstraum

martemchik said:


> I don't know if this is where you're going with this comment but in my opinion what you are doing is implying Schutzhund is higher ranking than conformation showing in a ring (which to you it is). I believe it would be almost impossible to train a dog in Schutzhund and also get its championship in a viable amount of time in order to breed it (even if it had the perfect drive/conformation for both things). There is just not enough time in a day to work a dog in both venues and compete on a high level.


It is not a matter of time.....it is a matter of ability. Conformation follows fad - fashion- NOT functionality - even SV judges will say this.




> The reason people don't do Schutzhund with ASL dogs is because its more difficult and you'll never be able to "win." Which lets face it, matters a lot to the human ego. ASL breeders don't breed for Schutzhund because there just aren't that many people that do Schutzhund in this country.


ahhh - you cannot breed for something you do not understand...that you have no knowledge or experience of...and you cannot make something if you do not have the foundation genetics to go forward. From my experience, ASL breeders fail to understand the concept of working drives and temperament and are just as negative about European working dogs as you are saying IPO oriented people are about ASLs. The difference being that many working people HAVE seen, been around the AKC ring and see the deficits in temperament that is often obvious in the ring....




> So I don't see anything wrong with breeding shepherds for the public that embody everything the standard sets out, but lacking in the working ability which leads to more people being able to own one (I know this has been discussed thousands of times on this forum, but lets face it the breeding practices in this country won't change).


well - I agree that there are too many commerical, ignorant, greedy and stupid people breeding dogs in the US...of ALL breeds, not just GSDs. BUT I see everything wrong in them doing it....that is why so many many many dogs are killed every day in this country. If there were stricter breeding practices, and not so many cheap BYB dogs out there, not everyone with $300 in their pocket would buy a dog and then dispose of it ....putting a pro football uniform on a guy off the street does not make him a pro football player.....




> I would rather have all the bybs stop breeding their imported working lines, or their purchased working lines because sable is the hot color of today, than have the ASL breeders stop doing what they're doing.


I'd rather neither was breeding substandard, poor tempered animals who many times find life too stressing for their nerve base....the BYB with WL are no better than the delusional people who condition a ASL to be handled enough to be stacked and examined and spend 10 grand to have a handler like Jimmy Moses finish it....




> Many of them are very responsible, and do all the things a good breeder should, and to knock them down because they don't compete in YOUR sport of choice is wrong IMO. But I do understand why YOU would never purchase a dog from one of them (I wouldn't either).


It is NOT a matter of "competing in sport" - it is a matter of kennel/standard blindness.....look and see how many people buy pups and come here with temperament problems - most of them from either BYB or commercial breeders or breeders who do not breed for balance and temperament but focus on ONE aspect - ie conformation.....I have seen many many many dogs in both camps, and will take my balanced, stable WL dogs over any type of BYB or SL with fear/confidence issues regardless 
of type or who bred it.

Lee


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## Liesje

martemchik said:


> I don't know if this is where you're going with this comment but in my opinion what you are doing is implying Schutzhund is higher ranking than conformation showing in a ring (which to you it is). I believe it would be almost impossible to train a dog in Schutzhund and also get its championship in a viable amount of time in order to breed it (even if it had the perfect drive/conformation for both things). There is just not enough time in a day to work a dog in both venues and compete on a high level.



And I don't know where you're getting that implication from. I don't give two rips what people do with their dogs or what the breed them for but this thread was about protection and the American Show line dog so I'm talking about ASL dogs doing Schutzhund or other types of protection work. 

You may be surprised that I show in conformation, three different venues no less. My dogs all obtain SG ratings and U-CH titles at minimum and right now I'm preparing to breed survey both my intact dogs. I've skipped Schutzhund training and Schutzhund trials to attend conformation shows with my dogs. Most recently I dropped a trial where I was going to do a BH and AD with Pan so we could do a conformation show instead, and I skipped out on attending the AWDF trial so that Nikon could show in the UKC ring. I actually take conformation fairly seriously these days. 

Also it may surprise you to know that Schutzhund is not my preferred venue for sport or even protection sport. I much prefer SDA training and trialing to SchH but can accomplish both with the same club/helpers/TDs so I cross-train with a Schutzhund club.

IMO a really nice dog is pretty easy to cross-train and title. If that's not what people want to do, then that's fine, but IMO_* a well rounded GSD doesn't require insurmountable time to cross-train and title.


*_


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## Xeph

My American show lines are ALL stable in public, and I DO give AmLine breeders credit where it is due, but SO MANY, even if they do do performance after conformation titles, have NOT developed the drives of their dogs.

Yes, the dogs completed their rally titles, but they are flat, boring animals to watch that are just going through the motions.

I got this:









By developing drives the DAY she came home at 10 weeks. Honestly, if I saw her brother and sister now, the reality is that there is NO way I would be able to get out of them what I got out of her. Why? Because they're kennel dogs that only come out for shows. They are not worked with the way I work with Mirada.

Now, the fact that Mirada has drives, and NICE ones to work with is a testament to the fact that not all ASL are driveless nervebags! But let's call a spade a spade. In a way, she may be a bit of a fluke, because ASL dogs in general are just not worked the way WL or WGSL are.

I focus on the total dog, regardless of lines. I look for drives, I look for nerve, I look for, at the very least, animals that are SAFE and COMFORTABLE in public and in all environments.

I did not have to train Mirada how to accept a judge. All I had to do was train her to stand still. She stands tall and confidently when a judge goes over her, she does not shrink away, she can go to the middle of the ring for the "temperament test" and will not shy away from an outstretched hand.

She heels under gunfire when I take her out to my husband's gun club, and does not flinch. She's not a bad little bitch.

But I recognize the deficiencies that do exist both in her, and within many American lines.


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## DianaM

Any sound dog can do obedience or agility or rally. In a true test of a dog's character in schutzhund (not the sport interpretation), a golden retriever will not pass. A collie will not pass. Greyhounds, Kerry blues, springer spaniels, all these will not pass. Rather, they should not pass if the tests are correctly conducted and the evaluation is honest. A good German shepherd, true to the standard, SHOULD pass. Many GSDs are great at rally and bring home ribbons and have herding instinct and do fine in AKC obedience but when pressured will not react as a good GSD should. Rally and a Ch title does not make a good GSD and never will and should never. On the flip side, there are quite a few podium dogs and VA dogs that don't embody the true character of a GSD. When my trainer and others say whining is common in GSDs, that's a sad indicator that something is wrong. The pressure involved in a good protection test and very strong obedience/traffic test would make a lot of imbalances clear. 

Many people also shouldn't own GSDs. The breed would be better off if less people owned them. This is true of many popular breeds...


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## pets4life

Xeph said:


> I mean a dog that would actually engage a real threat, and not run away if the pressure were put on.



The op means real protection not sport play protection 


I have never heard of a american show line do personal protection they will run away most of the time i am sure it just not what they are bred for anymore JMHO


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## pets4life

Also wanted to say not all real life cases are the same and dogs will always suprise us, so nothing is written in stone. But in general compared to other lines what i personally think when it comes to PP.


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## Xeph

> The op means real protection not sport play protection


Which is what I responded to


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## codmaster

DianaM said:


> Any sound dog can do obedience or agility or rally. In a true test of a dog's character in schutzhund (not the sport interpretation), a golden retriever will not pass. A collie will not pass. Greyhounds, Kerry blues, springer spaniels, all these will not pass. Rather, they should not pass if the tests are correctly conducted and the evaluation is honest. *A good German shepherd, true to the standard, SHOULD pass.* Many GSDs are great at rally and bring home ribbons and have herding instinct and do fine in AKC obedience but when pressured will not react as a good GSD should. Rally and a Ch title does not make a good GSD and never will and should never. On the flip side, there are quite a few podium dogs and VA dogs that don't embody the true character of a GSD. When my trainer and others say whining is common in GSDs, that's a sad indicator that something is wrong. The pressure involved in a good protection test and very strong obedience/traffic test would make a lot of imbalances clear.
> 
> Many people also shouldn't own GSDs. The breed would be better off if less people owned them. This is true of many popular breeds...


 
*Would you also agree that a good GSD, true to the standard, should also pass a conformation test (I.E. CH or V) just as well as the performance test of ScH.*

*BTW, I have seen a lot of ScH titled dogs that are very poor representatives, conformation wise, of the breed!*


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## codmaster

pets4life said:


> The op means real protection not sport play protection *What is the difference?* *I assume that you do not mean the current ScH areana, right?*
> 
> 
> I have never heard of a american show line do personal protection *they will run away most of the time i am sure* it just not what they are bred for anymore JMHO


*That is a strong accusation - wonder what you are basing it on and where you got your factual data from??? I imagine that you have done a lot of PP work?*


*Not all ASL will run! Gaurante that as i have had two that would not back up when really challenged. One a top ASL and one an ABYB dog.*

*If you would like, I would invite you to try to sneak into my house but would fear the legal fallout.*

*Wonder if there have ever been any German WL that had a poor temperament - doesn't sound like it from this forum, does it?*

*Yet, I have heard of some rumors of that.*


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## cliffson1

It really doesn't matter what any of us say about the lines in terms of temperament or structure.....its not like there are any secrets out there. Everybody knows what they see in real life....I'm sure Codmaster has ASL dogs that can do a Sch 4 , and if other people see this routinely in these lines....they are not going to believe the ASL has weak temperament in general. I'm sure there is WL dogs that are skinny like coyotes and with no bone and poor structure.....and people see enough of these WL dogs everyday to verify this.(Heck, look at all the poorly structured WL dogs that people on this forum own and have posted pics of)....people aren't fooled by "exception" rationalizations.
I would not agree that all GS true to standard should be American champion or V rated in order to be considered a good dog. For one thing the majority of the conformation shows, as Lee points out, are based on Fad and fashion......they look for cosmetic things. These things promoted do not help the GS remain a working dog for which it was created. They are for peoples egos. Second, you hardly see these superior conformation specimens(or their sisters or brothers) used in furthering the breeds legacy in "keeping his dog a working dog". Which shows a disconnect in what is true working structure, (which I suppose a working dog should possess), and the cosmetic working structure that is based on peoples likes and egos. Big difference!!!
The OP wants to know about AL and ability to do protection work......there is no absolute answer to this question, but there are prevailing trends in place that are better answers than exceptions to the rule. Unfortunatly, emotional based responses as opposed to answers based on what is generally encountered is hard to find among many of the owners and breeders of the German Shepherd.


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## martemchik

wolfstraum said:


> ahhh - you cannot breed for something you do not understand...that you have no knowledge or experience of...and you cannot make something if you do not have the foundation genetics to go forward. From my experience, ASL breeders fail to understand the concept of working drives and temperament and are just as negative about European working dogs as you are saying IPO oriented people are about ASLs. The difference being that many working people HAVE seen, been around the AKC ring and see the deficits in temperament that is often obvious in the ring....


Just wanted to respond to this...very true!!! I've spoken to some of the breeders of the show lines in my club, and they would rip on higher drive WL dogs all the time. My dog is medium to high drive, and he's easily one of the most driven in the club. 

And Lies, I didn't mean anything bad by it, I knew that you show and do all that other stuff. It's just a rarity because its so hard to do...like you said you have to miss training sessions or trials because something in the other venue pops up. I guess I'm just tired of the "lines" debate, we have the 3 main separate lines, and its going to be that way no matter what. Pick the GSD that is right for you and love it and do with it what you want, but I think that all of them are definitely capable of protecting the home. I've personally seen plenty of WL dogs that are so skittish they will run and hide no matter who's around, and have seen plenty of ASL dogs that wouldn't let you into their yard.

I think for those of you that really understand the breed, and know the particular lines of dogs that stem from 20, 30, or even 40 years ago have a huge advantage in selecting a dog that will fit your needs. For everyone else (myself included) I would always suggest meeting the parents, seeing them train, seeing them do something (anything) and just spending time with them. It will help tremendously in picking the breeder, and the lines.

I think that as long as the parents aren't over the top protective, and its clear its not a fear based reaction, the pups should be fine. I read into the OPs question as more as "will the dog protect me" and it will...in 2 or 3 years. If you're planning on doing PP work, then I don't believe this is a question that you should even be asking on a forum, you need help from whoever is going to be training the dog, and hopefully you understand enough about PP and GSDs to make an informed decision without a bunch of people on the internet chiming in.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> It really doesn't matter what *any of us* say about the lines in terms of temperament or structure.....its not like there are any secrets out there. Everybody knows what they see in real life....I'm sure *Codmaster has ASL dogs that can do a Sch 4* , *(kind of rude, don't you think, cliff? IPO4?)* and if other people see this routinely in these lines....they are not going to believe the ASL has weak temperament in general. I'm sure there *is* WL dogs that are skinny like coyotes and with no bone and poor structure.....and people see enough of these WL dogs everyday to verify this.(Heck, look at all the poorly structured WL dogs that people on this forum own and have posted pics of)....people aren't fooled by "exception" rationalizations.
> *I would not agree that all GS true to standard should be American champion or V rated in order to be considered a good dog.* For one thing the majority of the conformation shows, as Lee points out, are based on Fad and fashion......they look for cosmetic things. These things promoted do not help the GS remain a working dog for which it was created. They are for peoples egos. Second, you hardly see these superior conformation specimens(or their sisters or brothers) used in furthering the breeds legacy in "keeping his dog a working dog". Which shows a disconnect in what is *true working structure,(maybe the GSD Standard?)* (which I suppose a working dog should possess), and the cosmetic working structure that is based on peoples likes and egos. Big difference!!!
> The OP wants to know about AL and ability to do protection work......there is no absolute answer to this question, but there are prevailing trends in place that are better answers than exceptions to the rule. Unfortunatly, *emotional based responses as opposed to answers based on what is generally encountered is hard to find among many of the owners and breeders of the German Shepherd*.


Very very very true. And as we get older, the old dogs certainly get better and better.

Thank goodness the breed has some folks who still know what is best!


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## Xeph

> there is no absolute answer to this question, but there are prevailing trends in place that are better answers than exceptions to the rule.


I agree, which is why it annoys me when people say they hate generalizations. Generalizations are necessary in this case.

The cold hard honest truth (and this is coming from somebody who knows, loves, owns, and shows AmLines) is that most AmLines are not going to defend for real/will not do well in protection (though some may be ok to do club level).

Last summer, my ickle bitty Mogwai heard a noise downstairs, raced down the steps, and started THROWING herself against our back door. That is NOT a normal response for her. Yes, she will do her "big girl" bark if somebody is at our house, but this time, she was MAD!!

My husband had followed her downstairs, gun in hand, and he let Mogwai out. Well that little bitch chased somebody right on out of our yard! She was on his heels and was intent to get him good! He lucked out and made it over our fence just in time!

Jon called her back inside, and she was pleased as punch, I'll tell you what.

In that instance, she did protect our home. She was a good dog and got a couple hot dogs for her trouble.

That said, I also know who she really is deep down inside, and had the intruder turned into her, she would have cowered or run away. Strauss is the one who will meet a real threat. He has proven this to me in real life. Mirada would not.

Mirada did a very VERY good thing, and I'm still proud of her for it. Always will be. But it doesn't change who she really is. She is courageous when a threat's back is turned, but not when it is brought to her.

I still love her, and will always be grateful she got rid of somebody who could have meant us harm.


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## Liesje

Another thing I've noticed with my dogs and a few others is that sometimes, that little bit of nerve can help make a good protection dog. Nikon is very protective of me and more protective of the property than my other dog (though living in the city he's pretty desensitized to the nonstop flow of foot traffic a few yards from our fence/gate). He's also a dog that tends to be more aloof, more wary, not in the nervy/fearful sense but it's like he has more of a sense that there could be bad people in the world. He has a pretty high threshold though, so he's very comfortable and safe in normal social situations (family gatherings, walking in parades, visiting my husband's second grade classroom). However nothing gets past Nikon. He watched over everything and notices everything. He's the sort of dog where I trust his intuition. Now Pan, the through-and-through working, line seems to have no sense of this. It's like he has no concept of their being any real danger in the world. He's almost *too* stable. He's difficult to really unsettle and push buttons. He's strong and powerful and fast as far as Schutzhund protection goes, but he's not really protective of me the way that Nikon is, and it's not because he is fearful or nervous but almost the opposite. The aggression and fight is there but at least speaking in terms of Schutzhund training it takes more careful effort from a helper to draw it out. I don't know if this is making any sense, has anyone else has this experience?


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## Xeph

I know what you're talking about, Lies. Strauss is very similar to Nikon. Maybe not quite as "on", but in new situations, he certainly watches, and assesses a good deal.

He is protective of his home, but will not bark at every little thing. He is definitely protective of me, and has proven it. Strauss's thresholds are high, which is what makes him such a great SD, and he can be trusted at parades, around children, etc etc, though if you agitate him (helper) he'll definitely "come out", and he will do so strongly. He means business.


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## Liesje

Pan is also young, so I have to give him that. He may change.


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## martemchik

Rooney is just like your Pan. It takes so much work for me to get him riled up and aggressive. I can't get him to bark at strange noises when we're outside...he just quietly sits down and watches in the general direction. It's almost scarier than if he did bark...at least a bark would scare someone away, the quiet is more like "come out here and try it buddy." Although he's extremely trusting of strangers, he's aloof but he never looks at a strange person like "don't try anything," he just kind of expects them not to. But he can go from peaceful and playful, to full on aggressive with the flip of a switch (this happens when another dog that he's meeting growls or shows teeth at him). I believe he's just very good at reading people's energy (as Cesar would say), and he can sense that the world isn't out there to hurt him or his family. We've never ran into a person that wanted to hurt us, but I have a feeling that person would be giving off a lot of negative energy while coming towards us and it wouldn't be welcomed very nicely.


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## marbury

I have and ASL who is practically half golden retriever in temperament and two ASLs (one with a import grandfather) who have been 'spotted' by some folks at show clusters with potential. I've never done the sport m'self (I want to now!) and I never intend to have a protection dog, but as far as drive, focus, and nerves go heck yes, breeders have become conscious of the shortcomings of their ASL's temperaments and many are seeking to correct it, to great effect.
Last show I was at someone brought two german imports, both bitches, and both longer stock coat. Both of them had horrible temperaments; going berserk when another dog walked by their crate like they had a kill wish but as soon as they were out of the crate they looked miserable and shied away from any and everything.

It's not just ASL's... it's all breeding programs that neglect to consider temperament in their standard.


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## cliffson1

@ Marbury.....how many DDR, WL, Czech breeding programs are you "personally" familar with to make the statement that all breeding programs don't focus on temperament. Just curious as to whether this is a first hand informed decision based on enough instances to have credibility, or is it an observation of one or two examples seen personally and then extrapolated to be true for all breeding programs. 
@ Codmaster....didn't mean to be rude, just wanted to emphasize that many people make statements based on exception and try to pass the statement off as what is routine. I don't know 5 American Champion dogs with a sch 3 out of all the Champion dogs in this country in past 20 years. I am aware that for many they are not interested in the sport, but considering this sport was made for the breed, doesn't this seem pecular. I mean Sch was not made for the malinois for pete's sake. 
In terms of "breed standard"....the standard of today is the same standard that was used 5 year prior to Lance of Franjo. Get a book and look at the Grand Victors 5 years prior to Lance and look at the dogs after Lance and continue forward to now. Now the standard hasn't changed.....but if you are real sharp you will notice a difference in the structure. Now if you are really really sharp, you will notice that as this structural change advances, you see a decline in these dogs being used in service and work anymore on a consistent basis. And if you are really really really sharp, then you can connect the dots in terms of which structure is standard AND working all in one. The facts will support the supposition if you analyze this thing.


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## codmaster

cliffson1;2495702........................
@ Codmaster....didn't mean to be rude said:


> many people make statements based on exception and try to pass the statement off as what is routine[/B]. *I don't know 5 American Champion dogs with a sch 3 out of all the Champion dogs in this country in past 20 years.* I am aware that for many they are not interested in the sport, but considering this sport was made for the breed, doesn't this seem pecular. I mean Sch was not made for the malinois for pete's sake.
> In terms of "breed standard"....the standard of today is the same standard that was used 5 year prior to Lance of Franjo. Get a book and look at the Grand Victors 5 years prior to Lance and look at the dogs after Lance and continue forward to now. Now the standard hasn't changed.....but if you are real sharp you will notice a difference in the structure. Now if you are really really sharp, you will notice that as this structural change advances, you see a decline in these dogs being used in service and work anymore on a consistent basis. And if you are really really really sharp, then you can connect the dots in terms of which structure is standard AND working all in one. The facts will support the supposition if you analyze this thing.


 
Very, very true statment about basing things on the exception.

in my case I definitely realize that it is very unusual to have an ASL GSD that can do ScH even on an average level or even just to pass the test. I actually feel lucky to have such a dog with a solid (as far as i can tell) temperament.

As fart as US CH with a ScH title - also very true about almost none - but we can not generalize that none COULD have gotten one as very very few were ever given any opportunity to undergo such training. Probably not too many could have done it but we don't know for sure unless they were given the training to see.

To me, equally bad as the lack of CH ScH titled dogs is the lack of conformation in many of the top scoring ScH dogs - I wonder how many of the top working dogs would do much in the breed ring - US or even SV?

I look at the backs esp., of many of the working line dogs and they sure do not look level as the standard calls for.

BTW, I was very involved in the GSD US show scene when Lance was eminent in that area, as I lived in Ohio about 50 miles from Fran-Jo kennels. Lance was actually a very, very nice friendly dog whan I saw him.

And he was a very good producer, but dramatically overused by folks who evidently didn't know any better, or much about genetics and the problems of inbreeding.


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## gagsd

marbury said:


> I have and ASL who is practically half golden retriever in temperament and two ASLs (one with a import grandfather) who have been 'spotted' by some folks at show clusters with potential. I've never done the sport m'self (I want to now!) and I never intend to have a protection dog, but as far as drive, focus, and nerves go heck yes, breeders have become conscious of the shortcomings of their ASL's temperaments and many are seeking to correct it, to great effect.
> Last show I was at someone brought two german imports, both bitches, and both longer stock coat. Both of them had horrible temperaments; going berserk when another dog walked by their crate like they had a kill wish but as soon as they were out of the crate they looked miserable and shied away from any and everything.
> 
> It's not just ASL's... it's all breeding programs that neglect to consider temperament in their standard.


You say they are seeking to correct it, "to great effect." I ask, how? What effect?

I know, and like, several ASL dogs. However, no matter what their owners/breeders say, I am quite assured they are not capable of doing schutzhund. The "protective instincts" that the breeders tell me about, are, IMO just reactive aggression. Very inapproriate aggression. 

What floors me is when people who have never attended schutzhund clubs, have never worked a dog in protection.... assure me with straight faces how "strong" their dogs are. 
And these are not newbies, but people who claim years of experience but don't know that GSDs come in dark sable, or think that any dog with a Sch/IPO title is a working line.
Pfui!


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## DianaM

Codmaster, a champion title and a VA rating are highly subjective based on popularity, trends, and really should only be judged after a dog proves it can physically do what it was bred to do. Many agility training courses in use by SAR and serious training challenge a dog's mind as well as its physical ability. If a dog can navigate a mentally taxing and physically demanding course, perhaps then it should be put up to be evaluated for structure. Look at today's AKC grand victor and Germany's VA, then look at the same dogs 30 years ago. What Cliff says is true. The standard hasn't budged but people's desires fluctuate wildly. 

I wonder if we take the competition out of the show, would that have a positive effect? At that point, it is pass/fail. Your dog meets or exceeds standard, pass for breeding. Your dog fails to meet standard, disallowed from breeding. Then there is no competition for the best flying trot or reddest coat or nicest topline. It will kill the popularity but perhaps that is what is needed.


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## cliffson1

@ Codmaster....I am well aware you know the differences I speak of....and I also have a lot of respect for the knowledge you possess. Maybe that's why we clash sometimes....because I know you know the truth when you see it. lol
I will say this...if you look at the pre Lance winning dogs in the American showring and then you look at todays ASL dogs and today's WL dogs in structure.....I think you will find a much closer general similarity to the WL and these dogs of pre Lance, than today's ASL. Keep in mind; the standard is the same, that these dogs that were being awarded Excellent Select before Lance, aren't much different structurally than WL of today....very moderate in all aspects of stucture. So why is their structure so faulty.......?, maybe according to Judges that drink the kool-aid, but not according to that same standard that was used pre Lance.....hmmmmm!
I also thought lance was a great dog who was a plus to the breed, I thought his son Cobert's Reno was even better......but it didn't end there ...lol


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> I don't know 5 American Champion dogs with a sch 3 out of all the Champion dogs in this country in past 20 years. I am aware that for many they are not interested in the sport, but considering this sport was made for the breed, doesn't this seem pecular. I mean Sch was not made for the malinois for pete's sake.


FYI...(I was bored) I looked up how many Grand Victors had an Sch I, II or III. In 93 shows between 1918 and 2011 only 9 dogs have have one of those titles. They were all before Lance. (unless Sch titles also go under some other kind of initials) 

This dog was GV 4 times. 









This is the last dog with a Sch title to be Grand Victor. 









The first Grand Victor with an Sch compared to Lance. 









Comparison of Lance and the 2007 Grand Victor. (GSDCA site didn't have 2011)









So only 9 dogs in all the years there's been a Grand Victor have been tested by Schutzhund. I'm floored.


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## wildo

How do you say that dog's name: Brix v Grafenkrone? Is it "Bri" as in "Brianna" or is it pronounced "Bricks" as in: "There's a bunch of bricks over there."


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## Xeph

> So only 9 dogs in all the years there's been a Grand Victor have been tested by Schutzhund.


That's a bit of a misnomer. There have been more than that tested, but not all have achieved the titles.

Helen Gleason has a 1/2 WGSL American Champion who is also V Rated with SchH titles.

A sable dog named Yancy was working in SchH and I believe he had his BH (and perhaps AD...I will check), but unfortunately, both dog and owner passed away before they could achieve their title.

I'm not disagreeing that it is a bit shocking and disappointing that more do not have performance degrees (of any type) behind their names, I'm just saying that more be participating than realized.


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## Whiteshepherds

Xeph said:


> That's a bit of a misnomer. There have been more than that tested, but not all have achieved the titles.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing that it is a bit shocking and disappointing that more do not have performance degrees (of any type) behind their names, I'm just saying that more be participating than realized.


 I understand what you're saying. 

IMHO, the dog from 1922 (Erich) is outstanding, but I can't critique. Do you like him or no?


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## Xeph

I do not like Erich overly much, no, but I very much like Brix (pronounced "Bricks", Wildo)

ETA: I was mistaken about Yancy having his AD, but he was HT PT RE CD TC CGC BH

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=601967


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## marbury

gagsd said:


> You say they are seeking to correct it, "to great effect." I ask, how? What effect?


Oh, sorry. "To great effect" generally means "with great success", I suppose I should've included some sort of dictionary definition for folks. I forget we're an international group, oops!


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## Xeph

I think what she's actually asking is "What are they actually doing to fix it?"


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## marbury

Xeph said:


> I think what she's actually asking is "What are they actually doing to fix it?"


I figured, but sometimes you can't be sure.

The same way everyone across the globe fixes issues in their breed, it's not complicated. Take a stud with all the qualities you're looking for and a bitch with the same; breed, evaluate progeny. Lather, rinse, repeat. I'm not asserting anything different than anyone else, just putting in *my *experience with ASL's as 'improving'. I don't work with many importers (nothing against them, I'm just not familiar) so my experience is with ASL breeders, and the folks I'm friendly with all are working towards putting drive back in their lines if they're lacking. They've identified an area of significant improvement and are breeding towards it. I, for one, love that good breeders are always seeking to improve their lines!


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## cliffson1

@ Whiteshepherd.....I don't make this stuff up, and I usually speak about things I know firsthand or have seen in person. If you look at Brix, you see a workingline dog of today....GRAND VICTOR mind you....now what standard was he judged under?????? So why should the WL dogs of today under that same standard change?????? Somewhere people have things twisted!!!!lol Brix is also sable and has his Sch three. So as we move into the Lance era and the structure changes, the temperament and workability decreases, and so called experts and Judges can't see this????? More importantly, some of you consider these people reputable....its not personal but when you promote a slide in this direction, or fail to step up and acknowlege and OPENLY fight this slide....how can you have integrity in terms of the breed?????Baffles me.
(BTW, the GSL are no better, except with the Sch requirement, the road has been longer and not as steep...lol)
And the WL are drinking the kool-aid these day too in terms of flying launches and grips,grips, grips, and drive drive drive. 
Middle of the road structure and drives are no longer passe.
@ Marbury....how can the ASL improve the temperament if the majority of the ASL breeders are anti-European, and that's where the genetic blood that will improve the temperament exists. Until the bias is removed, (like when Brix was GV), then they will piddle with improving temperament but the genes aren't there to make a major difference. You see if you don't take these knew ASL creations in temperament out to performance events that require the dog to work under stress and show courage,(like Sch, IPO), then who among the ASL people is going to be able to validate the improvement. These people don't know anything about working temperament, as witnessed by what they think now is satisfactory, but is seldom seen in the sport or working world. We have to remove the biases we have against lines that can help bring the breed back to moderation and functionality, and we have to bring the deficient lines back up to par. So that someone other than there own cliche appreciates them, and want to use their lines because they bring something to the table.JMO


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## Liesje

Totally off topic but I actually like the GV 2007 better than Lance, just based on those two photos.


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## martemchik

Don't know how right this is but after a little bit of reading it seems like Schutzhund titles only became a requirement for breeding by the SV standard sometime from 1950 to 1970, not sure quite when but maybe someone has that information. So it makes sense that very few Grand Victors had Schutzhund titles on them. If it wasn't even a requirement in Germany, why would it be in America where lets face it, breeding standards are much more lax. I'm not saying that Schutzhund wasn't used as a breed test before this time, it was just not required to breed the dogs as it is today in order to get registration papers.

Just an interesting observation.

I have also noticed that many people I speak with that do AKC obedience with ASLs do claim to have a grandfather or grandmother that is German. We have a breeder at our club that has a brood bitch that produces great obedience dogs and she is a mix of lines. She would never win a conformation show, but I believe she has a UDX and has produced some great obedience and agility dogs.


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## Freestep

There has been a bit of improvement in the ASL world as regards temperament--they are now requiring GSDs in the conformation ring to go up and "greet" the judge before they are lined up in the ring. In this way shyness, nervousness, or fearfulness are exposed before the dog is even stacked. I witnessed this myself when I showed Vinca, and saw two or three dogs that shied when brought to the judge. They were not put up.

It's not exactly a SchH trial, but... baby steps!


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## Xeph

The "temperament test" you mention has actually been around for decades. Judges are not consistent in using it. Even when it is used, dogs with poor character are still put up. It irks me.

In regards to using German blood, more and more people are doing so, even going so far as to purchase their own imports for continued use.


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## Liesje

martemchik said:


> Don't know how right this is but after a little bit of reading it seems like Schutzhund titles only became a requirement for breeding by the SV standard sometime from 1950 to 1970, not sure quite when but maybe someone has that information. So it makes sense that very few Grand Victors had Schutzhund titles on them. If it wasn't even a requirement in Germany, why would it be in America where lets face it, breeding standards are much more lax. I'm not saying that Schutzhund wasn't used as a breed test before this time, it was just not required to breed the dogs as it is today in order to get registration papers.



I don't know the history of SV's breeding/KKL requirements but if you look at the historical VA1 list they all seem to have SchH or HGH title (I started at the bottom of the male list and went up to 1930 or so).


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> @ Whiteshepherd.....I don't make this stuff up, and I usually speak about things I know firsthand or have seen in person.


I know that. And that's why you get a lot of questions. 



cliffson1 said:


> @
> If you look at Brix, you see a workingline dog of today....GRAND VICTOR mind you....now what standard was he judged under??????
> So as we move into the Lance era and the structure changes, the temperament and workability decreases, and so called experts and Judges can't see this?????


Talking about judges...
In the picture below do you see considerable changes in these GV's over the years or didn't it happen until later? I took Brix who was owned by Ernest Loeb, and then found GV's who had been judged by Ernest Loeb. (assuming it was the same person??) Can you tell by looking at the pictures ifhis perception of correct conformation changed over the years or do you see consistency of type?(Cliff or anyone else)


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## trudy

Xeph, just wondering how old Mirada is?? That could be why you think if your intruder turned she would back away...I have noticed more sureness in their actions as they age, and if she is still a teenager that would explain it. Most teenagers are all mouth, but know to not try to back themselves up... I believe maturity and ability to read what is really going on is what brings them self confidence...

Also agility was also invented for German Shepherds, in 1965 for Utility dogs, and offered as a non regular class at a National Specialty..yet it has been changed over time to fit better for a border collie, everyone wants faster and showier, and I believe that has happened in schutzhund too, faster and showier is often praised when the nerve of some dogs becomes too high for some owners..

Think back 30+ years, most German Shepherds were black and tan, no one had floppy ears, no one had skitzy dogs, fearful thunder phobic dogs, and everyone knew they were a good breed that defended the home and family....they were American Canadian lines....then came the puppy mills/BYB/importers of poorer quality, owners more interested in themselves than training and of course the show line breeders going for extremes...kinda the blue print for failure...BUT we aren't doomed..many people are now on track. The few that stayed on track are encouraging others to come back into line. 

We can only hope that we aren't contributing to the mess, that we are leaving things better off when we stop than when we began...The breed deserves better than what they have had


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## Xeph

> Xeph, just wondering how old Mirada is??


Almost 2 and a half. She is what she is, and her genetics are what they are. She has many good qualities, but reality is that if she were faced dead on to a threat, she'd show cowardice and would retreat if she could.


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## lhczth

trudy said:


> Think back 30+ years, most German Shepherds were black and tan, no one had floppy ears, no one had skitzy dogs, fearful thunder phobic dogs, and everyone knew they were a good breed that defended the home and family....they were American Canadian lines....then came the puppy mills/BYB/importers of poorer quality, owners more interested in themselves than training and of course the show line breeders going for extremes...kinda the blue print for failure...BUT we aren't doomed..many people are now on track. The few that stayed on track are encouraging others to come back into line.


Oh yes, they existed. I wonder sometimes why I fell in love with this breed because I saw so many shy fearful dogs back then (and some were of European lines). I remember going to watch a conformation show and having to walk away from the GSD ring. I remember going to look at a litter of pups out of a Lance daughter. They had bred the female because they had hoped to "settle her down". Some of the pups were nice and some were skittish. I trained with a couple that had GSD and they were always having to work to help their dogs overcome environmental issues. Only thing I don't remember is Mals in GSD clothing. Those seemed to come later. Of course I also met a lot of extremely sound dogs or I would have looked at another breed.


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## cliffson1

@ Martemchik....where did you get the information about 1950 being timeframe for when the Germans started making a sch requirement necessary for breeding. I am sure the requirement of a sch degree was in place in the thirties and forties, even the twenties. Except for imports, Sch basically came to America in the early seventies with NASA and Dietmar Schellenberg(sp). I was a member of NASA at one time. So for homebred it wasn't until then that it was realistic for American breeders to produce Sch titles. But let me let you in on a little secret, by and large, the temperament of the breed in America prior to the Lance craze was fine. Many American breeders produced service dogs, guide dogs, war dogs, and police dogs. The Sch title is not as important as what the intent of the breeder and the integrity to breed for dogs that meet the standard without regard to personal likes/dislikes.
@ Whiteshepherd....I knew Ernie Loeb personally and brought a dog from him in 1977. The sire was Ywan vom Wisenborn and the dam was Yilka vom Holtkamper See. Yvan was imported by Ernie and finished, then sold to San Paulo, Brazil. You would have to talk to Ernie to understand that he had his ideal of the breed and then his putting up the best dog available within his ideal at the National Specialty Show. He also Judged the Nationals on many occaisons. So when opportunity presented itself, he would put up the more moderate dog, or the import. But often there were still very sound American bred dogs that were the better dogs in his eyes even if they were a little more extreme than his personal preference. Ernie would not compromise temperament though.
Sidestory.....Ernie went to Germany in 75 or 76 and Yvan was a young dog, he had gone SG-1 like six times in a row. Ernie tried to buy him, because he was extremely angulated for a German dog back then, and had a long length of stifle like Brix that allowed him to "fly". Ernie knew he would be a hit here although the anti-German sentiment was growing by leaps and bounds. Dog was not for sale....period. Over the next year Yvan grew to be 27 inches at shoulder, his breeder realized he could never go VA being that big, so the sentiment was sell him to the Americans. So Ernie got the dog and brought him here and finished him. But there is strong German presence in Brazil, and Ernie had friends from old country there, so Yvan ended up there. Enough of boring people....lol
BTW, the female that I got from Ernie and Yvan was super strong in looks and structure. Her mother was out of Arras vom Haus Helma if I remember correctly.


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## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> @ Martemchik....where did you get the information about 1950 being timeframe for when the Germans started making a sch requirement necessary for breeding. I am sure the requirement of a sch degree was in place in the thirties and forties, even the twenties. Except for imports, Sch basically came to America in the early seventies with NASA and Dietmar Schellenberg(sp). I was a member of NASA at one time. So for homebred it wasn't until then that it was realistic for American breeders to produce Sch titles. But let me let you in on a little secret, by and large, the temperament of the breed in America prior to the Lance craze was fine. Many American breeders produced service dogs, guide dogs, war dogs, and police dogs. The Sch title is not as important as what the intent of the breeder and the integrity to breed for dogs that meet the standard without regard to personal likes/dislikes.


I've read it on a few websites that have the history of the breed and the SV. I'm not saying the dogs didn't have the title...it just wasn't required to breed and register like it is today. So I think what happened was people just naturally went towards the dogs that were titled...because they knew better and those dogs were put up because the judge might've been inclined to give it to the dogs with titles. According to the websites it was due to the lack of genetic diversity after the war that the SV had to crack down a little on the breeding practices and actually instituted the requirement. So I'm sure that even before that most dogs that were getting bred were Schutzhund titled, but now it was actually required.


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## cliffson1

@ Whiteshepherd....this is old pic I found of my yvan daughter from Ernie Loeb.


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## codmaster

trudy said:


> Xeph, just wondering how old Mirada is?? That could be why you think if your intruder turned she would back away...I have noticed more sureness in their actions as they age, and if she is still a teenager that would explain it. Most teenagers are all mouth, but know to not try to back themselves up... I believe maturity and ability to read what is really going on is what brings them self confidence...
> 
> Also agility was also invented for German Shepherds, in 1965 for Utility dogs, and offered as a non regular class at a National Specialty..yet it has been changed over time to fit better for a border collie, everyone wants faster and showier, and I believe that has happened in schutzhund too, faster and showier is often praised when the nerve of some dogs becomes too high for some owners..
> 
> *Think back 30+ years, most German Shepherds were black and tan, no one had floppy ears, no one had skitzy dogs, fearful thunder phobic dogs, and everyone knew they were a good breed that defended the home and family....they were American Canadian lines.*...then came the puppy mills/BYB/importers of poorer quality, owners more interested in themselves than training and of course the show line breeders going for extremes...kinda the blue print for failure...BUT we aren't doomed..many people are now on track. The few that stayed on track are encouraging others to come back into line.
> 
> We can only hope that we aren't contributing to the mess, that we are leaving things better off when we stop than when we began...The breed deserves better than what they have had


 
Who told you that 30 years ago all was perfect in the GSD show world?

There even were a few Specials at the National that were excused for shyness! What an uproar in the hobby then!


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## cliffson1

I think a Sch title (or HGH ) title has been a requisite for breeding and registering a German Shepherd in Germany since the early 1900's.


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## trudy

maybe I should have said 40 + years ago, and I was talking the dogs the average family had and the ones most people came into contact with.. No one used to fear or think they were spooks with bad hips.. people respected the dogs, and that is what I was alluding to, I was not talking about going to a dog event, just talking generalities of what I saw and remember, so could have said 50+ years ago too..Oh my goodness!!!!!!


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Ernie knew he would be a hit here although the anti-German sentiment was growing by leaps and bounds.


So at some point in time US (and maybe Canadian?) breeders decided to do less importing of the German dogs? What was the rational behind that?

I've read that less than great dogs were exported and sold to US breeders, the sentiment being that US breeders didn't know a good dog from a bad one, is that true? I think this was earlier on in the breed?


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## cliffson1

The American Show people stopped putting up German dogs as the Lance craze deepened. I remember when Assalam vom Klamme(sp) went Select 3 i think, and many people felt he should have gone higher but they weren't going to put up a German dog as GV at this point. So since no German dog was going to be put up then American show people stopped using German dogs. Remember in 1965 the Grand Victor was a German import....Brix. After Assalan, I would venture that NO German dog has gone select until maybe Fred Lanting might have put one up(not positive it was Fred,but I think so), and look how he was castigated by the GSDCA. So for 30 plus years the American wouldn't even look at a German dog, similar to the German with sable dogs. Didn't matter how well the dog moved or that in phenotype the dog was similar to what was winning, and genetically could improve temperament. I have been to show in which the Judge told me a puppy I had that she put at the back of the class(1990's Southern NJ GSDC), and afterwards walked up to me and said she is nice puppy for a German dog. (This same puppy went VP-2 under Leonard Sweikert at the USA regional out of class of 12.) What made it insulting was the judge put two total spooks with tail yucked under stomach ahead of my puppy. They should have been dismissed much less placing 1st and 3rd. 
In past few years some breeder starting with Darby Dan, Gleason, and few others have mixed German dogs with American dogs and been somewhat successful in they got their American championship. But the bias is incredible.


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## Andaka

The last German import that I know of that was given a Select rating was Ch. Dingo von Haus Wurdemann Sch 3. He went Select 10 under Ed Barritt in 1990.

A dog that wasn't an imort but was from an import sire and dam was Ch. Steinhuegel's Siggo who was Selct 9 in 1975. His owner, Anne Given, was a family friend and I got to play with him. As Anne was good friends with Ed Peters, I also got to play with Select Ch. Asslan von Klammle and his mother Zilly.


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## cliffson1

For the record, neither Assalan or Zilly were bastions of character. As a matter of fact, Zilly was also a reason that Assalan was imported to America. With her breed survey, Assalan was limited in how high he could go at the Seiger show.


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## Whiteshepherds

Cliff, Andaka...anyone? Have you read this? I was just wondering what you thought of it. (It's really interesting even though I don't know if he's right in his observations) 

http://www.angelplace.net/doc/GarrettBook.pdf

Asslan is mentioned btw. (Chaper 18)


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> For the record, neither Assalan or Zilly were bastions of character. As a matter of fact, Zilly was also a reason that Assalan was imported to America. With her breed survey, Assalan was limited in how high he could go at the Seiger show.


Can you expound on this?


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## cliffson1

Even though Assalan was not strong in temperament, he had a very nice croyp and had effortless movement. He actually went v-1 in some shows in Germany. But Zilly, his mother , was very weak tempered and I'm pretty sure got only a satisfactory in protection part of her breed survey or she might even have failed it. Either way this relegated that Assalan was never going to go VA in German.....just like his father Canto who could not go higher than V-1 at the Seiger show because he only received satisfactory in his protection work. Canto's sister, Cilly was also very weak in temperament. Assalan did have a nice brother Argus that stayed in Germany and produced some nice dogs. But this line was not known for strength character. Movement....yes...blues and hemophiliacs are also known to come through Canto.


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## sabledog

Nevermind, it was already said better than I could say it.


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## Samba

I believe the breed could be versatile and popular without breeding groups lopping off great portions of the German Shepherd. Some people lived a time more like the former. I am too young. I believe I have only seen glimpses of such dogs in my "modern" GSDs. I like most my old WL girl, but she is hoping to turn twelve next week. Not sure I can replace her. Perhaps I am a pessimist, but, maybe a realist. Selection matters in ongoing generations and today proves it. 

I am sure there have been some squirrely weak dogs in the past. These dogs are why we have to watch out in GSD genetics all along the way. 

My ASL girl is quite protective of me. Nice genetic obedience. Very devoted. With a dose more courage and fight drive, could have been a real useful thing. But, she takes a lovely step.

My WL boy not as naturally obedient, but still willing. A bit tweaky,in my estimation, so he does spark easily and look exciting in protection. Everyone has the GSD of their "world" now. Bad thing?


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## hunterisgreat

Xeph said:


> Nnnnope. At least, not if you mean AKC show lines. American lines could mean anything if you don't specify really
> 
> Depends on the individuals. My girls are very social, with one being more confident and outgoing than the other. They don't normally do very well in protection training due to a lack of nerve, but as long as the dog is stable, they can participate in the sport safely.
> 
> My little Mogwai is currently doing a bit of bitework for funsies, and we will hopefully go for her BH this fall if I don't chicken out.


As long as the dog is stable **AND** the helper understands how far and how much that particular dog can be pushed


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## DunRingill

martemchik said:


> I believe it would be almost impossible to train a dog in Schutzhund and also get its championship in a viable amount of time in order to breed it (even if it had the perfect drive/conformation for both things). There is just not enough time in a day to work a dog in both venues and compete on a high level.


Coming into this late.....Getting titles is not the same as competing at a high level. MOST teams just go for titles. So yes it's true, there probably is not enough time in the day to work a dog in multiple venues and compete on a high level. but it IS possible to train and title a dog in multiple venues.

--Regina
remembering Canadian & UKC Ch Logan Am/Can UD SchH1 (Canadian group winner) Not GREAT at anything, but pretty good at everything


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## martemchik

DunRingill said:


> Coming into this late.....Getting titles is not the same as competing at a high level. MOST teams just go for titles. So yes it's true, there probably is not enough time in the day to work a dog in multiple venues and compete on a high level. but it IS possible to train and title a dog in multiple venues.
> 
> --Regina
> remembering Canadian & UKC Ch Logan Am/Can UD SchH1 (Canadian group winner) Not GREAT at anything, but pretty good at everything


But that's where you would run into a problem, nothing that dog does sets it apart from the others. If someone is looking for a SchH dog, they can find thousands of others that would have a higher title than that, and also probably excel at that. They can also find dogs that are champions/grand champions or even Sieger champions that would be considered better than being a Canadian and UKC champion.

I'm not denying that the dog you put in your example is a great dog, but its not setting itself apart from the rest of the pack in any way. Just thinking about marketing and the things people look for, this dog wouldn't appeal to the hardcore working line people, and it also wouldn't appeal to the hardcore conformation people. 

It is great to see that the dog has a UD and a SchH title though, I think we're about to have a Schutzhund 3 dog and UDX dog at my club in a few years, I want a puppy out of her really bad. But this dog would never win an AKC conformation point (longer hair).

I'll just refer back to ego on this one, people want to be the best, #1, at everything they do, so the dog will be geared towards that. Sadly, this had caused the divide and until we can get a dog that looks like an AKC grand victor and can perform on the field like a SchH3 dog scoring 295s, no one will agree on what is right and wrong.


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## Andaka

I know what you mean. The obedience people see my dogs as "show dogs" and the show people see them as "trick dogs". So I just keep producing what I want, and I don't worry about what anyone else thinks.


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## DunRingill

martemchik said:


> But that's where you would run into a problem, nothing that dog does sets it apart from the others.


Actually, I think the fact that he was a conformation Ch AND Utility titled AND had a SchH1 title did set him apart from others. He was probably one of the few (only?) dogs in the country at that time with those titles. 



> I'm not denying that the dog you put in your example is a great dog, but its not setting itself apart from the rest of the pack in any way. Just thinking about marketing and the things people look for, this dog wouldn't appeal to the hardcore working line people, and it also wouldn't appeal to the hardcore conformation people.


And he really shouldn't appeal to either group! He was a complete outcross, old American show lines on one side (Cobert stuff, Reno) and his sire was German show lines (Vopo Kirschental). But trust me, if someone with money had owned him and advertised him the way many dogs are advertised, his dance card would have been full. As it was, he sired 2 litters and I wasn't particularly impressed, so he wasn't available after that. 

OH, and as his breeder and the person who trained, showed, and lived with this dog.....he wasn't a great dog. Handsome, but NOT a Great dog. and definitely not suitable for a pet home. My working lines GSDs are much easier to live with than Logan was! 



> I'll just refer back to ego on this one, people want to be the best, #1, at everything they do, so the dog will be geared towards that. Sadly, this had caused the divide and until we can get a dog that looks like an AKC grand victor and can perform on the field like a SchH3 dog scoring 295s, no one will agree on what is right and wrong.


You really think everyone has the drive to be #1 at everything they do? I don't. I think there are very few people who have that kind of drive. I sure don't! 

I'd bet good money that there will never be a dog that looks like an AKC GV that could get good honest 295 in SchH3 competition. Heck there are darn few working line dogs that can score that with any consistency!


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## DunRingill

cliffson1 said:


> Even though Assalan was not strong in temperament


I have heard this many times! I wonder how his temperament would compare to dogs in the conformation ring today?


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## Whiteshepherds

DunRingill said:


> Actually, I think the fact that he was a conformation Ch AND Utility titled AND had a SchH1 title did set him apart from others. He was probably one of the few (only?) dogs in the country at that time with those titles.


Don't we call that versatile and isn't that what the breed is supposed to be?


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## DunRingill

Whiteshepherds said:


> Don't we call that versatile and isn't that what the breed is supposed to be?


Yes. So where ARE the versatile dogs?

Have to say tho, these days I have minimal interest in showing in conformation. Seen too much, heard too much, no thanks.


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## BlackthornGSD

hunterisgreat said:


> As long as the dog is stable **AND** the helper understands how far and how much that particular dog can be pushed


Is this ever not true of training a young dog in schutzhund?


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## BlackthornGSD

Whiteshepherds said:


> Don't we call that versatile and isn't that what the breed is supposed to be?


This is such a US-focused question. There is no such thing as a conformation champion in Germany--just the V rating, maybe a Landesgruppen V1 dog? But every one of them possesses at least a sch1 title.

The question really is why is the American show ring's conception of correct and desirable conformation so different from the rest of the world's?


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## codmaster

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is such a US-focused question. There is no such thing as a conformation champion in Germany--just the V rating, maybe a Landesgruppen V1 dog? But every one of them possesses at least a sch1 title. *And?*
> 
> The question really is why is the American show ring's conception of correct and desirable conformation so different from the rest of the world's?


 
*What is the difference?* Do you mean the difference in the US and the German standard? Or the breeders implementstion of the different standard in each country?

Are you making the assumption that all US show people follow the same "..American show ring's conception of correct and desirable conformation.."? It certainly sounds like this is the case, but I did want to be sure of my understanding of what you were trying to say?

And how would you account for or explain the vast difference in the WL and SL in Germany? Aren't they supposed to have the same standard to follow? I am by no means an expert, but even I can see huge differences in the two seperate lines in German dogs. One obvious difference among the lines is the back of the dog.


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## martemchik

DunRingill said:


> You really think everyone has the drive to be #1 at everything they do? I don't. I think there are very few people who have that kind of drive. I sure don't!


I believe we do, if not on a national/world level, you can't tell me that if you trial you don't want to win. On the outside we're all happy just qualifying in whatever ring we choose, but we still want to win that day, and it makes us all feel better when we prove that we're better than out competitors that day.

But I'm also talking about the breeders mainly, not just the owners of dogs trialing for themselves. The breeders need to win, they want to be the best. Be it in the show ring (champions) or on the Schutzhund field (there's a reason there is a high in trial award).

Also, its nice that you understand that Logan wasn't a good dog, and didn't produce many liters, but in today's world of looking online and buying a puppy based on titles, someone can easily be tricked by a dog like that. I remember a few weeks ago a person said they wanted to breed in the future and their goal would be to "combine the lines." I think most people were in agreement that you just can't do that anymore as there isn't a market (unless you're talking strictly pet) for those kinds of animals. The more your dogs accomplish, the more you can charge for future liters, its just simple economics. And most breeders do need to make some money on pups in order to continue their true passion of showing or trialing in whatever ring they choose.


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## BlackthornGSD

codmaster said:


> *What is the difference?* Do you mean the difference in the US and the German standard? Or the breeders implementstion of the different standard in each country?


No, I mean what is seen as desirable by the people breeding for these conformation rings and by the judges making the decisions. Most people breeding for the conformation ring are, by definition, breeding to win. If it doesn't win, people with the conformation ring as a goal will not breed for it.

The differences in the standards are minimal and, largely, irrelevant to my point. (If you think the differences in the standards have created the different types of dog, then ponder the question of why the AKC standard isn't the same as the breed standard for the rest of the world.) 

I'm not going to go into the differences in the resulting dogs--that info has been covered a thousand+ times.



> Are you making the assumption that all US show people follow the same "..American show ring's conception of correct and desirable conformation.."? It certainly sounds like this is the case, but I did want to be sure of my understanding of what you were trying to say?


I very specifically said what I meant to say. The dog that can win in the AKC show ring varies in some degree from one part of the country to another, but the regional variances are far smaller than any country variance. For example, name one country other than the US or Canada where an AKC champion-bred GSD can be imported and win his/her conformation class.



> And how would you account for or explain the vast difference in the WL and SL in Germany? Aren't they supposed to have the same standard to follow? I am by no means an expert, but even I can see huge differences in the two seperate lines in German dogs. One obvious difference among the lines is the back of the dog.


That is a different issue entirely. Breeding for success in the conformation ring is inherently different than breeding for working criteria. (In short, the dogs that scoring the highest points in schutzhund tend to have a sprinter build with tighter, bunchier, "quick twitch" muscles, fast reflexes, and the selection pressure is for strength over endurance. The croups and upper arms are short and steep to enable quick launches and sprinting strength and speed. They are not selected for endurance build. The conformation dogs are not selected for the ability to corner at a full run around a blind or for fast reflexes to get a fast, full grip on a re-attack. Additionally, conformation lines face selection pressure to mature early and in a predictable way--that is, a 12 month old conformation line dog that is ugly and awkward will be deselected for breeding--it will be sold as a pet. In contrast, 12 month old working line dog that is in an awkward growth stage will be kept and worked--if it is showing the drive and working ability early enough.)

I'm not talking about how things should be, but rather how they actually _are._


----------



## codmaster

BlackthornGSD said:


> No, I mean what is seen as desirable by the people breeding for these conformation rings and by the judges making the decisions. Most people breeding for the conformation ring are, by definition, breeding to win. If it doesn't win, people with the conformation ring as a goal will not breed for it.
> 
> *Don't you think that the WL people also are "breeding to win" just as much as the SL folks? You seem to be trying to make that a bad thing? Don't you try to win when you show your dog in some trial or show?*
> 
> The differences in the standards are minimal and, largely, irrelevant to my point. (If you think the differences in the standards have created the different types of dog, then ponder the question of why the AKC standard isn't the same as the breed standard for the rest of the world.)
> 
> *Why do you think that the world GSD standard isn't the same as the US one?*
> 
> I'm not going to go into the differences in the resulting dogs--that info has been covered a thousand+ times.
> *What about the "Roach" back - that seems to be a BIG difference, isn't it? And I may have missed something somewhere but I don't think that either standard calls for a big Roach in the back. My guess is that that is bred for because it seems that the winning dogs display one, yes?*
> 
> I very specifically said what I meant to say. The dog that can win in the AKC show ring varies in some degree from one part of the country to another, but the regional variances are far smaller than any country variance. For example, name one country other than the US or Canada where an AKC champion-bred GSD can be imported and win his/her conformation class. *How about vice versa? *
> 
> That is a different issue entirely. Breeding for success in the conformation ring is inherently different than breeding for working criteria. (In short, the dogs that scoring the highest points in schutzhund tend to have a sprinter build with tighter, bunchier, "quick twitch" muscles, fast reflexes, *(These two things are most interesting differences, I woul be interested in seeing where have you seen any documented medical studies of these two things, or are these just an opinion?)* and the selection pressure is for strength over endurance. The croups and upper arms are short and steep to enable quick launches and sprinting strength and speed. They are not selected for endurance build. The conformation dogs are not selected for the ability to corner at a full run around a blind or for fast reflexes to get a fast, full grip on a re-attack. Additionally, conformation lines face selection pressure to mature early and in a predictable way--that is, a 12 month old conformation line dog that is ugly and awkward will be deselected for breeding--it will be sold as a pet. In contrast, 12 month old working line dog that is in an awkward growth stage will be kept and worked--if it is showing the drive and working ability early enough.)
> 
> I'm not talking about how things should be, but rather how they actually _are. *Uh! Uh!*_


 
So it does sound like you have a great deal od winning experience in the AKC show ring. Or perhaps maybe not winning? A lot of experience showing in the AKC show ring?

Funny how strong opinions are on both sides of WL versus SL, isn't it?


BTW, did you have an opinion on why therre are such large and evidently growing differences between the German versions of WL and SL?

I didn't see that anywhere in your post?

Or maybe did you include the German SL in the group with the US SL????????


----------



## Xeph

> *How about vice versa? *


Uh....I see it happen more here with an import than over in Germany (or wherever). It's getting more and more common. The reality is that the American line GSD is not popular throughout the world. The international dog is...working and show. You can import/export both of those to almost EVERY country. AmLines do not really go anywhere but Canada, Mexico, and sometimes, Britain.

I took BOB with a Euro show line import at a small show, and yes, she had competition. She's V rated and is now pointed in AKC.


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## Xeph

> As long as the dog is stable **AND** the helper understands how far and how much that particular dog can be pushed


Oh, she's stable, and the helper has worked dogs at the national level


----------



## sabledog

martemchik said:


> But that's where you would run into a problem, nothing that dog does sets it apart from the others. If someone is looking for a SchH dog, they can find thousands of others that would have a higher title than that, and also probably excel at that. They can also find dogs that are champions/grand champions or even Sieger champions that would be considered better than being a Canadian and UKC champion.
> 
> I'm not denying that the dog you put in your example is a great dog, but its not setting itself apart from the rest of the pack in any way. Just thinking about marketing and the things people look for, this dog wouldn't appeal to the hardcore working line people, and it also wouldn't appeal to the hardcore conformation people.
> 
> It is great to see that the dog has a UD and a SchH title though, I think we're about to have a Schutzhund 3 dog and UDX dog at my club in a few years, I want a puppy out of her really bad. But this dog would never win an AKC conformation point (longer hair).
> 
> I'll just refer back to ego on this one, people want to be the best, #1, at everything they do, so the dog will be geared towards that. Sadly, this had caused the divide and until we can get a dog that looks like an AKC grand victor and can perform on the field like a SchH3 dog scoring 295s, no one will agree on what is right and wrong.


I think the point is that it is not at all impossible to title dogs in multiple venues. Look at the Loups du Soleil Malinois. Psycht Australian Cattle Dogs. I know of a Cardigan that is a herding champion that just got his Grand Champion this past weekend. And he's an ROMb. Ombres Valeureux has working and show Malinois and Beaucerons.

It's harder in GSDs because the AKC show ring wants a dog that looks a certain way. When you look at the SV you see plenty of V rated, nationally competing dogs. But the same goes for the Seigers...they want a dog that looks a certain way. So it's not that the WL GSD couldn't win a Ch or GCH because of their structure, it's because politics won't let them.


----------



## martemchik

sabledog said:


> I think the point is that it is not at all impossible to title dogs in multiple venues. Look at the Loups du Soleil Malinois. Psycht Australian Cattle Dogs. I know of a Cardigan that is a herding champion that just got his Grand Champion this past weekend. And he's an ROMb. Ombres Valeureux has working and show Malinois and Beaucerons.
> 
> It's harder in GSDs because the AKC show ring wants a dog that looks a certain way. When you look at the SV you see plenty of V rated, nationally competing dogs. But the same goes for the Seigers...they want a dog that looks a certain way. So it's not that the WL GSD couldn't win a Ch or GCH because of their structure, it's because politics won't let them.


Thank you for trying to disprove my point by bringing in other breeds that clearly don't have the same division the GSD does. The discussion is about the GSD, so the point is that it is pretty much impossible to do both. It has nothing to do with politics, I have talked to plenty of ASL breeders that specialize in the show ring, and from my discussions with the people on this forum it is just clear that everyone has a very very very good understanding of the standard but interpret them very differently.

ASL breeders that breed for conformation just look at the fact that the way the dog moves gives it the ability to work effortlessly and the way the standard perceives it. They don't much care that the dog doesn't have the "drive" to do the work, they just care that it conforms with the dimensions that have been laid out that would make the work easy for the dog. They usually reference the "flying gate" and the work is usually herding.

I also stated that its very hard to do it on a high level. Although I believe people out there can get an AKC championship and possibly train their dog in Schutzhund, the time constraints are really what will get you in the end. We have people at our club doing both Schutzhund and AKC obedience, they center their summers around Schutzhund and do AKC venue work in the winter, there just aren't enough weekends and free days to trial in both and get all the requirements for breeding under the SV system done.

And I'm talking about two semi-related things (obedience). Imagine trying to go to Schutzhund trials, train, and also get into conformation shows and finding majors all at the same time. Training for conformation shows will get in the way of Schutzhund training, Schutzhund training will get in the way of conformation training, and although the training might be possible if you're working with your dog and don't have a full time job, I still can't imagine finding the shows and trials and traveling all over the country in order to get what you needed done.


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## sabledog

martemchik said:


> Thank you for trying to disprove my point by bringing in other breeds that clearly don't have the same division the GSD does. The discussion is about the GSD, so the point is that it is pretty much impossible to do both. It has nothing to do with politics, I have talked to plenty of ASL breeders that specialize in the show ring, and from my discussions with the people on this forum it is just clear that everyone has a very very very good understanding of the standard but interpret them very differently.
> 
> ASL breeders that breed for conformation just look at the fact that the way the dog moves gives it the ability to work effortlessly and the way the standard perceives it. They don't much care that the dog doesn't have the "drive" to do the work, they just care that it conforms with the dimensions that have been laid out that would make the work easy for the dog. They usually reference the "flying gate" and the work is usually herding.
> 
> I also stated that its very hard to do it on a high level. Although I believe people out there can get an AKC championship and possibly train their dog in Schutzhund, the time constraints are really what will get you in the end. We have people at our club doing both Schutzhund and AKC obedience, they center their summers around Schutzhund and do AKC venue work in the winter, there just aren't enough weekends and free days to trial in both and get all the requirements for breeding under the SV system done.
> 
> And I'm talking about two semi-related things (obedience). Imagine trying to go to Schutzhund trials, train, and also get into conformation shows and finding majors all at the same time. Training for conformation shows will get in the way of Schutzhund training, Schutzhund training will get in the way of conformation training, and although the training might be possible if you're working with your dog and don't have a full time job, I still can't imagine finding the shows and trials and traveling all over the country in order to get what you needed done.


My point is that if my dogs were allowed to win in the AKC show ring (and yes, because of politics they are not), I would do both. I train in multiple venues with two different dogs and hey, I work two jobs 6 days a week.

Thank YOU for not understanding anything I'm saying here, giving me a snotty response, and completely disregarding the fact that they are HUGE splits in other breeds. Not just your precious German Shepherd. 

I don't know why I try.


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## martemchik

What politics? Just the fact that you need a handler and your dog needs to come from good lines? The same stuff happens in Germany with the Sieger show, probably even worse than here because in the United States the dog shows are very region based. If you do have an ASL line then I do feel for you, it does suck that because you might not be known in your location you can't win, but if you have a working line (I'm guessing you do) its kind of just something we all have to deal with.

I'm thinking of entering my boy in a few shows, just to see what happens, but when I look at some of the ASL lines that are in conformation shows, they're like the size of Great Danes and I know that he wouldn't be able to compete with them. I just don't like to blame it all on politics, its just the natural evolution of the breed ring and what it has pushed the dog to become.

Sorry I was snippy, I just hate it when people bring "irrelevant" information into the thread in order to prove a point. Although it can happen in another breed I just don't ever see it happening in the GSD ring, you can blame it on politics, I blame it more on the breeders and the judges that have created a more "beautiful" product for their market.


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## sabledog

martemchik said:


> What politics? Just the fact that you need a handler and your dog needs to come from good lines? The same stuff happens in Germany with the Sieger show, probably even worse than here because in the United States the dog shows are very region based. If you do have an ASL line then I do feel for you, it does suck that because you might not be known in your location you can't win, but if you have a working line (I'm guessing you do) its kind of just something we all have to deal with.
> 
> I'm thinking of entering my boy in a few shows, just to see what happens, but when I look at some of the ASL lines that are in conformation shows, they're like the size of Great Danes and I know that he wouldn't be able to compete with them. I just don't like to blame it all on politics, its just the natural evolution of the breed ring and what it has pushed the dog to become.
> 
> Sorry I was snippy, I just hate it when people bring "irrelevant" information into the thread in order to prove a point. Although it can happen in another breed I just don't ever see it happening in the GSD ring, you can blame it on politics, I blame it more on the breeders and the judges that have created a more "beautiful" product for their market.



Yes, and the less beautiful products don't win because of...politics. A judge sees a sable WL and he disregards it. It's not Rin Tin Tin in looks. To me, that's politics.

And the splits in other breeds and the breeders that both show and work their dogs (in both venues) to me is not at all irrelevant. It's the same situation the GSD is in. I don't know how you could deem it as irrelevant.


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## Samba

It is possible to champion a dog and get more training and titling done. I am working with a bitch who was finished at 2. Now doing training in obedience. No reason she could not title in multiple venues because there is plenty of time. Now, having the drives and abilities to work become the issue. The more the dog brings to the table, the easier it would be to get the performance areas covered.

Many breeds are split. You have to go to one of those less "touched by competition" breeds to find more consistency in a breed.


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## martemchik

sabledog said:


> Yes, and the less beautiful products don't win because of...politics. A judge sees a sable WL and he disregards it. It's not Rin Tin Tin in looks. To me, that's politics.
> 
> And the splits in other breeds and the breeders that both show and work their dogs (in both venues) to me is not at all irrelevant. It's the same situation the GSD is in. I don't know how you could deem it as irrelevant.


I guess I don't know the other breed rings enough and don't know how often it happens. I've seen certain breeds where its clear there is a split (husky comes to mind), but when it comes to a Malanois, they don't look that different to me.

What you see as politics, I see as a different interpretation of the standard. Sadly, anytime there is a written anything, that's also been translated from another language, it will be interpreted differently by each and every one of us.


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## Andaka

It is not politics that earns a dog a championship, it is the education of the judges that is the difference. If the judges are used to seeing a more extreme dog, that is what they will consider. It is also the competition available at the show. I had a dog that I had purchsed lose to one of my less extreme home-bred dogs only to win under the same judge in a different state. I have also noticed that as the number of specialty shows decrease and gas prices go up, there are more of the specialty type dogs showing and winning at the all-breed shows. The judges are getting used to seeing them there, and are putting them up.

BTW, I have always trained and titled my dogs in multiple venues of AKC dog sports -- conformation, obedeince, herding, agillity, and sometimes tracking.


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## martemchik

I don't want to dismiss AKC sports, as my main sport is AKC obedience, but the amount of time that goes into Schutzhund and AKC obedience is completely different. And I don't even think its training time that matters, its the travel time and money to get to the trials as well. I think its great that there are people out there doing multiple venues (we have people showing and doing obedience at our club as well) but if Schutzhund is considered necessary to test the ability of the GSD to work, then it is pretty clear that not many people will ever be able to finish a dog in the breed ring and also train it in Schutzhund (to get an all around package) as it hasn't really been done successfully yet.

Also this is just for the purpose of this discussion, as I think that a UD or UDX is a great measure of a dog's working ability and would love to see those titles be as highly regarded as a SchH.


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## BlackthornGSD

Andaka said:


> It is not politics that earns a dog a championship, it is the education of the judges that is the difference. If the judges are used to seeing a more extreme dog, that is what they will consider. It is also the competition available at the show. I had a dog that I had purchsed lose to one of my less extreme home-bred dogs only to win under the same judge in a different state. I have also noticed that as the number of specialty shows decrease and gas prices go up, there are more of the specialty type dogs showing and winning at the all-breed shows. The judges are getting used to seeing them there, and are putting them up.


I agree. It's not politics. It's looking different. The dogs ARE different. The judges are putting up what they think is most desired according to standard--based on what they have been shown as examples of a correct GSD and what they have been trained, both through formal training and exposure over the years, is supposed to be the "ideal" GSD physically. 

If we supporters of the breed don't agree with the judges, there's a fundamental problem.




> Yes, and the less beautiful products don't win because of...politics. A judge sees a sable WL and he disregards it. It's not Rin Tin Tin in looks. To me, that's politics.


The reason your sable workingline dog isn't doing as well in the show ring is because the judge doesn't think his conformation is as good. Politics may play a role in the placements within a ranking, but if your dog is getting a G instead of a V, it's because the judge thinks your dog isn't put together well enough. 

And, for the purposes of the conformation ring, he is not. Very few workingline dogs are truly balanced in angulation, and most are lacking in length of scapula and forearm and wither and length of neck, and very few have the length of upper thigh and lower thigh to create the angulation that would balance the greater shoulder angulation. Most of them have a lot of tuck up instead of having a deep and consistent "underline." 

Whether or not you think these features are desirable is irrelevant--by the rules of the conformation ring, they are important elements just as in schutzhund it is considered important for a dog to have the right tone and intensity of bark and for the dog's grip be deep and full on both sides of the muzzle.


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## BlackthornGSD

> *Don't you think that the WL people also are "breeding to win" just as much as the SL folks? You seem to be trying to make that a bad thing? Don't you try to win when you show your dog  in some trial or show?*


I did not say or even imply that breeding to win is a bad thing or that it is OK for SL folks and not for WL. My point is that breeding to win--in any venue--will influence the breeding results. Also, it means the target is always moving somewhat--because you're not breeding to a set goal, but a dynamic one.



> *Why do you think that the world GSD standard isn't the same as the US one?*


Is this a debate technique you learned in high school? It's not very supportive of informative and enjoyable discussion. Even Yahoo! Answers agrees that it is rude, argumentative, and deliberately antagonistic: Is it rude to answer a question with a question? - Yahoo! Answers



> *(These two things are most interesting differences, I woul be interested in seeing where have you seen any documented medical studies of these two things, or are these just an opinion?)*


Have you ever watched, held the leash of, or even put your hands on different types of GSDs? Train some working line dogs, go to some local trials and look at the types of dogs, go to some national trials and shows or some world championships or sieger shows, and look at the dogs. Use your eyes, use your hands, do some reading, look at sprinter body types in dogs and horses and humans and look at endurance types, do some research, read about physiology, use your brain.



codmaster said:


> So it does sound like you have a great deal od winning experience in the AKC show ring. Or perhaps maybe not winning? A lot of experience showing in the AKC show ring?


I'm interested what you think my point was, because I really don't understand what you are trying to communicate or ask. Where does my AKC ring experience enter into this?



> Funny how strong opinions are on both sides of WL versus SL, isn't it?


I wasn't trying to offer my opinion of WL vs SL. I'm confused by how you read this in my comments.



> BTW, did you have an opinion on why therre are such large and evidently growing differences between the German versions of WL and SL?
> 
> I didn't see that anywhere in your post?
> 
> Or maybe did you include the German SL in the group with the US SL????????


You seem to have entirely misunderstood everything I was saying. Yes, my points apply to the conformation rings both internationally and in the US and Canada. They also apply to working breeders for not just GSDs but all breeds--function dictates form. 

Why is there a difference? That's like asking why any two opinions are different. The answer is simple: Both sides think they are right; both sides have a lot invested in being right.


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## martemchik

BlackthornGSD said:


> They also apply to working breeders for not just GSDs but all breeds--function dictates form.


I think this is one of the better statements. To working line people they don't care what the dog looks like as long as it can perform its working duties. Conformation people want a form that allows the dog to (in theory) perform the work that could be asked of it.


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## lhczth

martemchik said:


> I think this is one of the better statements. To working line people they don't care what the dog looks like as long as it can perform its working duties. Conformation people want a form that allows the dog to (in theory) perform the work that could be asked of it.


But what happens when that form becomes so distorted and exaggerated that the dogs can no longer perform the work they should be able to do? 

And so I don't have to make a second post: There are many WL that are built for endurance along with utility. They are very balanced and can move at an easy ground covering gait for hours on end. They are just not extreme enough for high placements in the conformation rings. 

Not enough time to do more than one venue is an excuse. I have watched the training that is needed to prepare for shows in Germany. We are talking HOURS of ring work a week per dog plus conditioning on other days. Then the dogs must be shown because the dogs must be seen and campaigned to expect to place well at the Sieger show. These same people are also training for high competition at the same time.


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## hunterisgreat

BlackthornGSD said:


> Is this ever not true of training a young dog in schutzhund?


No its always true, but the statement that the dog is stable alone, I was merely pointing out was incomplete.


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## hunterisgreat

Xeph said:


> Oh, she's stable, and the helper has worked dogs at the national level


No negativity directed at the helper, no doubt he is good, but also understand that there are training helpers, and trial helpers. You can be a phenomenal trial helper while being an exceedingly poor training helper, and vice versa.. their roles are very very different. Usually thats not the case, but it does happen. Just making the point b/c many people don't understand this. Not trying to be nit picky


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## Samba

As far as the Malinois...quite, quite split to me. I know a few conformation ones and they are not much like the working line ones I have been around. One owner of a CH that I know is quick to point out that the Mals are not supposed to be like those WL ones. Okay.


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## BlackthornGSD

lhczth said:


> And so I don't have to make a second post: There are many WL that are built for endurance along with utility. They are very balanced and can move at an easy ground covering gait for hours on end. They are just not extreme enough for high placements in the conformation rings.


This is true--and this is the type of dog I consider truly correct. But they're also usually getting V ratings, not Gs, yeah? They're not going to be a top placer, but the judge usually gives them a V in recognition of their balanced conformation.


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## martemchik

lhczth said:


> But what happens when that form becomes so distorted and exaggerated that the dogs can no longer perform the work they should be able to do?
> 
> And so I don't have to make a second post: There are many WL that are built for endurance along with utility. They are very balanced and can move at an easy ground covering gait for hours on end. They are just not extreme enough for high placements in the conformation rings.


You're right on the first part, but I think that's a very old stereotype as I was just at a specialty show two weekends ago and none of the dogs were that extreme. They definitely moved just fine and didn't have their rear ends that close to the ground. I think the biggest difference I saw between my working line and those ASLs was the color, the rear end being a little lower to the ground (with hocks a little lower but not as bad as I've seen), and of course just the sheer size of the animals. Mine looked like a puppy compared to some of the males, their heads were like great dane heads and I have an 85 lb 22 month old lol.

I can see how the ASL dog looks better than mine. To someone that hasn't read the standard, or just doesn't care about the standard, that dog is much more impressive looking. It's bigger, badder, and also a saddle back (helps people know its a GSD). So that's why a dog who's only function is going to be a good looking/menacing pet, comes out of those kinds of lines. Without a true function, be it protection, herding, or any of the other sports, the ASL dog is just what Americans are looking for. And although their form is probably better for work (in theory and by the standard), they don't have the drive to want to do that work.


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## lhczth

martemchik said:


> .......... And although their form is probably better for work (in theory and by the standard), they don't have the drive to want to do that work.


 
No stereotypes since I am actually around these dogs and see them fairly regularly.  Form follows function and even if many of these dogs had the drives and character to work their form still is no longer designed to work (even if less exaggerated). While the structure of our breed should not be that of a Malinois it still should be the structure of a breed bred for both endurance and agility.


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## lhczth

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is true--and this is the type of dog I consider truly correct. But they're also usually getting V ratings, not Gs, yeah? They're not going to be a top placer, but the judge usually gives them a V in recognition of their balanced conformation.


Yes, agree.


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## Samba

My ASL dog can really move out and is very smooth in motion. But, I am not sure exactly that it makes for "better" working conformation. Do we really know what that is? 

I do believe I saw a puppy the other day.... I think he was out of a high select ASL male bred to a Czech bitch. There are crosses occuring to WGSL and some WL. Now, is it to shore up temperament, nerve, etc and then continue on in the same vein? Or is more change toward moderation in form and strength in function on the horizon?


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## martemchik

Samba said:


> My ASL dog can really move out and is very smooth in motion. But, I am not sure exactly that it makes for "better" working conformation. Do we really know what that is?


From what I have been told...

Having the correct angle in the knee and hip joint allows the dog use more of the hamstring and quadriceps to move rather than the other muscles in and around the back legs. What happened was though that breeding for that caused longer hocks and so the angle of the hock was exaggerated and we got the "frog dogs." Now they are trying to fix that.

I think the WL dogs are getting mixed in mostly to sell puppies. People have jumped on the sable/WL band wagon and want the new "it" dog. The saddle back is no longer the it dog, its much cooler to be different and have a sable so the breeders try to meet the demand of the buying public. Sadly, they don't understand how the drives and nerves of these dogs mix and many times you get a nervy dog with a lot of prey drive (not a good mix).

In response to lhczth, I don't think you have any stereotypes, I think its just a common stereotype of the lines in general. For those of us around those dogs we tend to understand it a little more (I still would never get one) but I can understand where the breeder that is producing those dogs is coming from. The breed ring requires this kind of stuff, and if you want to win in that ring you have to match what the judge wants to see. I'm 100% sure that my dog can run faster, farther, longer, and jump higher than any of the ASL dogs at my club, no matter how much "better" their conformation is according to the breed ring.


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## Samba

I was speaking to the addition of the WL by people with nationally top show dogs for the purpose of conformation breeding. I don't think they are breeding the dogs particularly for puppy sales and they are keeping pups themselves if they get something they like. I will ask next time I run across them. 

Too dog gone busy at the shows worrying about getting mine in the ring and doubling correctly to chat much!


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## martemchik

Samba said:


> I was speaking to the addition of the WL by people with nationally top show dogs for the purpose of conformation breeding. I don't think they are breeding the dogs particularly for puppy sales and they are keeping pups themselves if they get something they like. I will ask next time I run across them.
> 
> Too dog gone busy at the shows worrying about getting mine in the ring and doubling correctly to chat much!


I'm not very involved on the national level, but I would think its either for temperament or to fix an appearance issue. I was told by a woman at our club that breeds for the conformation ring that my WL has some good features on him that might do pretty well in the breed ring, so we'll see. But going off of my own experiences with "mixed" dogs, they don't have the best of temperaments. There is a litter at our club that is mixed, the dogs look a little more German (red) but they have ASL temperaments. I met a few mixes at our specialty show, and the first thing they wanted to do was tear into my boy.

Hopefully someone figures out how to do it right one of these days.


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## cliffson1

No politics in the show ring??????? Jimmy Moses always has the best dog at the end of the leash????? Whew!!!! Really learned some new stuff today...lol


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## Andaka

But was it politics when I won???


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## JakodaCD OA

martemchik I take it you aren't a fan of "mixes". I guess I would wonder how many ASL dogs you've been around to know the kind of temperaments they have?

I know we all have our preferences, whether it's lines, color, whatever, I tend to appreciate a nice dog in whatever flavor it may come in. Actually probably the best dog I ever had was an ASL/WL "mutt", he was a sound, stable, bombproof dog that if I could replicate I would in a heartbeat.

While you may not want to discuss other breeds, the fact is, the majority of breeds out there are not all 'uniform', borders, aussies, malinois, terriers, it has happened in not just german shepherds.

I guess it just bothers me when I see attitudes with "if you ain't gotta (insert whatever flavor) you ain't got squat" 

Maybe you should meet Daphne's "mixes"


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> No politics in the show ring??????? Jimmy Moses always has the best dog at the end of the leash????? Whew!!!! Really learned some new stuff today...lol


 
He is the best handler!


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## codmaster

JakodaCD OA said:


> martemchik I take it you aren't a fan of "mixes". I guess I would wonder how many ASL dogs you've been around to know the kind of temperaments they have?
> 
> I know we all have our preferences, whether it's lines, color, whatever, I tend to appreciate a nice dog in whatever flavor it may come in. Actually probably the best dog I ever had was an ASL/WL "mutt", he was a sound, stable, bombproof dog that if I could replicate I would in a heartbeat.
> 
> While you may not want to discuss other breeds, the fact is, the majority of breeds out *there are not all 'uniform', borders, aussies, malinois, terriers, it has happened in not just german shepherds.*
> 
> I guess it just bothers me when I see attitudes with "if you ain't gotta (insert whatever flavor) you ain't got squat"
> 
> Maybe you should meet Daphne's "mixes"


 
Very true! And also there is a BIG split in many hunting dogs! (I.E. working vs show!)


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## cliffson1

So Jimmy always has the best dog on the end of the leash???? If the Judge can't evaluate the dog past the handler, either they're incompetent or there is politics.....take your choice.
Daphne, even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.....what is the norm in the show world.....best dog or best handler?


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## Xeph

> best dog or best handler?


Sometimes, neither....


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> So Jimmy always has the best dog on the end of the leash???? If the Judge can't evaluate the dog past the handler, either they're incompetent or there is politics.....take your choice.
> Daphne, even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.....what is the norm in the show world.....best dog or best handler?


So who is the best handler (in your own personal opinion, of course)? Because then this one should always win, shouldn't they? Oh yea, except for the politics.


BTW, just in case you are not aware of it, one of the reasons that an ordinary person showing a good dog hires a "pro" handler is their ablity to know what kind/type/looks etc. of the dogs that they like best, (i.e. all black, big, angulation, dentition, etc. etc.) But not to worry, it is proabably all a gret conspiracy with all bad things and deals going on in smoky back rooms, right?

Just for the curiosity factor, do you happen to know any honest competent judges (maybe ones that agree with you about the current state of the GSD)?

I would like to know so I can search them out when I decide to enter my US SL GSD.


Little emotional about Jimmy?

He must be a really bad handler if "he always has the best dog" as your post seems to imply since the last I checked, he didn't "Always" win (just a lot of the time).


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> So Jimmy always has the best dog on the end of the leash???? If the Judge can't evaluate the dog past the handler, either they're incompetent or there is politics.....take your choice.
> Daphne, even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.....what is the norm in the show world.....best dog or best handler?


 
In the furtherence of "Blind Squirrel" stuff - I once placed fourth in a class of 22 dogs at a big speciality show loaded with just about all of the big pro handlers. I was a complete neophyte handler in the breed ring. Must have been one of the few honest judges or maybe she just wanted to teach those pros a lesson in who was the boss?

BTW, cliff, have you ever thought of becaming a GSD judge?


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## Whiteshepherds

So what would happen if they got rid of the professional handlers and why do they allow them in the first place? 
If the dog needs smoke and mirrors and special handling to make it look better it doesn't really deserve to win...does it?


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## Xeph

> So who is the best handler (in your own personal opinion, of course)?


Do you EVER just answer the question posed? The obvious answer to Cliff's question of whether or not Jimmy always has the best dog is NO! He does NOT 100% of the time have the best time in the ring.

One has to be extremely naive to believe that he always has the best dog, or is SO incredibly talented he can hide absolute crap. Let's call a spade a spade here.










Quote:
Originally Posted by *cliffson1*  
_So Jimmy always has the best dog on the end of the leash???? If the Judge can't evaluate the dog past the handler, either they're incompetent or there is politics.....take your choice.
Daphne, even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.....what is the norm in the show world.....best dog or best handler?_

So who is the best handler (in your own personal opinion, of course)? Because then this one should always win, shouldn't they? Oh yea, except for the politics.




> BTW, just in case you are not aware of it, one of the reasons that an ordinary person showing a good dog hires a "pro" handler is their ablity to know what kind/type/looks etc. of the dogs that they like best


And because breeders CONVINCE people that they aren't serious about the breed unless they hire a handler (which is bologna). Rather than answer questions and instill knowledge, it is easier to keep an ego inflated by squashing enthusiasm and INSISTING that somebody hire a handler so the dog can finish as quickly as possible.


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## Xeph

> So what would happen if they got rid of the professional handlers and why do they allow them in the first place?


Because not everybody is physically capable of handling their own dogs.

And the whole "smoke and mirrors" thing...well, every dog has faults. It is a handler's job, professional or not, to minimize faults and accentuate attributes.

I distract the judges eye from looking at Mirada's weak head by stroking the area of her shoulder or her topline, as she has an excellent front and topline.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> Do you EVER just answer the question posed? The obvious answer to Cliff's question of whether or not Jimmy always has the best dog is NO! He does NOT 100% of the time have the best time in the ring.
> 
> One has to be extremely naive to believe that he always has the best dog, or is SO incredibly talented he can hide absolute crap. Let's call a spade a spade here.
> 
> *Ok, you are a spade! Whatever you mean by that.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *cliffson1*
> _So Jimmy always has the best dog on the end of the leash???? If the Judge can't evaluate the dog past the handler, either they're incompetent or there is politics.....take your choice._
> _Daphne, even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.....what is the norm in the show world.....best dog or best handler?_
> 
> So who is the best handler (in your own personal opinion, of course)? Because then this one should always win, shouldn't they? Oh yea, except for the politics.
> 
> 
> 
> And because breeders CONVINCE people that they aren't serious about the breed unless they hire a handler (which is *bologna*). Rather than answer questions and instill knowledge, it is easier to keep an ego inflated by squashing enthusiasm and INSISTING that somebody hire a handler so the dog can finish as quickly as possible.


What would having a customer hire a pro handler do for the breeders ego?

Do you do much showing and handling yourself? 

It really is a tough job to show your dogs strong points off and do your best to conceal/coverup/minimize their weaker points. but naturally you already know that, don't you?

BTW, what do you think of someone in the performance field who hires a pro to train and handle their dogs in the IPO areana? I assume that they are just as bad as the owners who do it in the conformation ring, eh?

And who do YOU think is the best pro handler (who wins all the time)?

Heh! Heh!


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## Xeph

> What would having a customer hire a pro handler do for the breeders ego?


Dogs finish faster, adds to the roster of champions, satisfies ego. Would think that much would be obvious.



> Do you do much showing and handling yourself?


YES! And I've been told by pro handlers that I do an EXCELLENT job, and I have placed in the specialty classes with the bitch I have, as well as having beaten well established pro handlers for points with client dogs I've had.



> BTW, what do you think of someone in the performance field who hires a pro to train and handle their dogs in the IPO areana? I assume that they are just as bad as the owners who do it in the conformation ring, eh?


This makes no sense at all, as it is apples and oranges. What does this have to do with anything?



> And who do YOU think is the best pro handler (who wins all the time)?


 I honestly have no feelings on this at all. I have feelings on who is BAD, but definitely not who is the best.


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## Debbieg

Reading all this makes me want to just enjoy my dog and never want to show in anything no matter how good he is.


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## Andaka

I have hired several different pro handlers over the years, but my favorites are the Foster's. Fran, Carl, and Julia have shown and finished all of my champions, and Julia and Tag were the #2 GSD (behind Jimmy) in 2004. In helping out the Foster's, I have put points on several different breeds -- Boxer, Akita, Border Collie, PWC, GSD, Dachshund, Schipperke, Keeshound, and others. But I never hired Jimmy. This blind squirril managed to find enough nuts to keep me happy.


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## martemchik

JakodaCD OA said:


> martemchik I take it you aren't a fan of "mixes". I guess I would wonder how many ASL dogs you've been around to know the kind of temperaments they have?


I train at a club that is almost exclusively ASL. The breeders we have are all ASL, I've actually met more ASL dogs by a long shot than I have working lines or WGSL. They're great dogs, but the mixes I have met are weird. There are some that have very stable and calm temperaments but are no where near working temperaments, then there are others that are very nervy and jumpy. I guess its just like with every line, there are extremes on both ends, but I've just noticed in my experience you don't get a working line dog temperament in an ASL body by throwing them together for a few generations. It either ends up as one or the other and the two don't really blend...

Some breeders might've had some success with it, but it isn't the norm as more people would be doing it then.

And in regards to politics, I think politics have to do with the handler and the lines the dogs come from (champion fathers/mothers/grandparents) but not the over all lines. The working lines aren't picked because their features aren't looked at highly, not because of politics. If Jimmy handles a working line dog, he won't win lol.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> Dogs finish faster, adds to the roster of champions, satisfies ego. Would think that much would be obvious.
> *Good point! Had forgotten that!*
> 
> YES! And I've been told by pro handlers that I do an EXCELLENT job, and I have placed in the specialty classes with the bitch I have, as well as having beaten well established pro handlers for points with client dogs I've had.
> 
> *That is great! Your clients? Makes you sort of like a pro if you are showing other folks dogs, doesn't it?*
> 
> This makes no sense at all, as it is apples and oranges. What does this have to do with anything?
> 
> *Some folks seem to think that hiring a conformation Pro handler is a terrible thing! Happens in other than conformation was the point of course. *
> 
> I honestly have no feelings on this at all. I have feelings on who is BAD, but definitely not who is the best.


When I was deeply in conformation AKC showing a long time ago - it was pretty well accepted by most folks that J. Moses was the best GSD handler. At least within the circle of conformation folks, handlers and kennels that I was aquainted with then.


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## codmaster

martemchik said:


> I train at a club that is almost exclusively ASL. The breeders we have are all ASL, I've actually met more ASL dogs by a long shot than I have working lines or WGSL. They're great dogs, but the mixes I have met are weird. There are some that have very stable and calm temperaments but are no where near working temperaments, then there are others that are very nervy and jumpy. I guess its just like with every line, there are extremes on both ends, but I've just noticed in my experience you don't get a working line dog temperament in an ASL body by throwing them together for a few generations. It either ends up as one or the other and the two don't really blend...
> 
> Some breeders might've had some success with it, but it isn't the norm as more people would be doing it then.
> 
> And in regards to politics, I think politics have to do with the handler and the lines the dogs come from (champion fathers/mothers/grandparents) but not the over all lines. The working lines aren't picked because their features aren't looked at highly, not because of politics. *If Jimmy handles a working line dog, he won't win lol.*





But he would come a lot closer than the average handler - he would also know a lot more about which judges to enter under.

BTW, to get a successful cross of WL and SL, a breeder would have to do what they should do in any mating - match the mals and female, not only in phenotype but also in genotype! I.E. not only to match what the dogs LOOK like but what is behind the looks (and temperament, of course) in their genes. THEN the match could be very successful! Of course one would also have to decide beforehand what would make it successful in the breeders eye. I.E. if you were an AKC conformation breeder and you bred to a good WL stud the match probably be considered a failure if all the puppies came out with a really roached back even if their temperament was great! And many ASL bnreeders would consider the match successful if the pups had the same overangulation like in many ASL now IF the pups had great fearless temperaments.

Should be defined and looked at before the match and then the breeders can look for a WL stud known to improve temperament.


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## codmaster

Andaka said:


> I have hired several different pro handlers over the years, but my favorites are the Foster's. Fran, Carl, and Julia have shown and finished all of my champions, and Julia and Tag were the #2 GSD (behind Jimmy) in 2004. In helping out the Foster's, I have put points on several different breeds -- Boxer, Akita, Border Collie, PWC, GSD, Dachshund, Schipperke, Keeshound, and others. But I never hired Jimmy. *This blind squirril managed to find enough nuts to keep me happy*.


 
Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster

Debbieg said:


> Reading all this makes me want to just enjoy my dog and never want to show in anything no matter how good he is.


 
Nah! Don't take it that way!

Showing your dog in any venue (breed, ScH, Rally, Agility, Herding, etc.) can be a lot of fun whether one is really top competive or just in it for the fun of doing stuff with your dog! Some of the best most enjoyable shows I have shown in turned out to be failures from a passing/placing standpoint!


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## Xeph

> *Some folks seem to think that hiring a conformation Pro handler is a terrible thing!*


I don't think it's a terrible thing. I think it's a terrible thing that many of the older breeders discourage new people and people capable of handling their own dogs from doing so. I have been told and have had other people tell me that they have been told that they are not serious about the breed if they do not hire a handler, and time is being wasted.

Not everybody has the priority of finishing a dog before the age of 2, and some find it much more enjoyable to train and show their own dog. Unfortunately, few have the desire to constantly be berated about how they're not double handling right, and do not want to send their dog off with a stranger, and, surprisingly, they just want to be able to HAVE a dog.

If I get a show dog and I tell the breeder I'm going to show it, I SHOW IT! But I am also clear that I cannot afford to be out every weekend, and that the dog is unlikely to finish before two, not just because of needing to watch finances, but because I want to SIT on a dog and let it grow up and participate in other venues as well.

I do show my puppies for experience. I want to win, and I show to win, but I do not just EXPECT to win.


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## Samba

Jimmy hehehe. Cracking me up. I don't have a glorified view of any dog handlers. There are a number of good ones.


I have gotten in the little ring a few times. Unfortunately, I am older and not athletic. They would have to carry me out of the specialty ring! So, pass the checkbook. Besides, I love my awesome doubling responsibilities there!


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## Xeph

> I don't have a glorified view of any dog handlers


Same. However, because I'm still considered "new" (oy....) I do still feel great pride when I beat out established pro handlers


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## dogfaeries

I've just hired my first handler for the big Oklahoma City show coming up in 2 weeks. 

Four days of entry fees and handler fees for 2 dogs = ouch on the pocketbook.

I _really_ want to show my girls in this show. There will be majors! Gotta chase those majors, especially if they are in your own backyard. The girls are usually shown by my breeder, but unfortunately she's not available for this show, so we had to come up with an alternate plan. Hence the hiring of the handler!

I'm actually excited to see her show my girls. We'll do all the grooming and hand them over at ringside. They've been taken in the ring by other people when they've had to go in for Winner's Bitch, so being handed off to a stranger isn't an issue. 

Anyway, I guess we have a real live handler, lol.


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## dogfaeries

Andaka said:


> I have hired several different pro handlers over the years, but my favorites are the Foster's.


Julia has taken Carly in for Winner's before (when she was a puppy), when we had an Open bitch in at the same time. She is very nice!


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## robk

I thought this was suppose to be a thread about the protection ability of American line dogs. (?). I have seen American line dogs (mostly BYB dogs, not show lines) that had major aggression issues. The question for me is can aggression be channeled into protection sports or personal protection training with out a strong nerve or good amount of natural drive. I think it would be difficult.


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## cliffson1

I'm sure some posters here will have some questions for you to help get to the answer....hehe
@ Andaka..I don't doubt the accomplishments or credibility of you or a handler winning on merit, still that does not prove there are not politics in the breed ring.
@ Codmaster....nice try...you have to find another person to play jeopardy with...hehe
@ Robt.....when you ask questions about ASL and protection, I believe you may have only a few people that have indepth knowledge about Both! Maybe that is why the thread didn't stay on track.


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## Samba

I was reading an article the other day by a pro handler. It might have been Jimmy even. They were lamenting that these days there are few owner handlers. The article definitely was making a point about the practice of hiring pros has not necessarily been good for the breed or the fancy. This from a person making a living at it.


I am not going to get up and start ScH training with my ASL dogs this morning, somehow. Mostly because I would be really mad if they did it! I have other dogs here I specially selected for their genetics and thus abilities in that venue. I would feel really silly for owning 5 German Shepherds if one would have done the trick.  maybe I just choose badly!


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