# Sassback after Corrections



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

My dog sasses me back when I correct her for chewing on me. Growling, light nipping. What to do with such a bossy sassypants?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds like she is doing this to get your attention? 

Get up and walk away. Completely deprive her of attention.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She likes to demand more attention if I do that. She has been known to latch on and have a meltdown, even without corrections. I tried time outs for a year... I can keep trying though. Sometimes if I grab her handle and say "no" and correct her a few times it works, but I would like to extinguish the behavior. Sometimes, just grabbing the handle to her prong and saying " no" works, but sometimes she enjoys a little challenge of authority.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

A hard enough correction will stop it. 

David Winners


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

OK, going to have to psych myself up to do this.. Maybe I'm nagging her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Go for in between nagging and Come To Jesus


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

LOL I will keep that in mind. I was going for least invasive minimally aversive but the little scamp might need me to be more firm.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

Gunther gets like that late at night. I put his lead on him and he calms down within seconds and goes to sleep for the rest of the night.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi is like that early in the morning when she is full of beans. Sometimes in the afternoons and evenings, but mostly before I am awake.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i would leash her and do not let her get away with or nip you
make it a lot less fun
i get the idea you think it is cute and it is in a way to discuss it here with bossypants terms
and sassy or full of beans
it is a lot less fun when she gets in a real painful nip or bite

if you truly want it to stop then make it less fun for her 
my dogs do not do this to me
and i have one that talks back all the time especially around meal times
i told her a few times to quit with the noise and she did not stop
i got out the soft cloth muzzle (hope chip is reading this :rofl: ) and she wore it for about 10 min while i fixed her dinner
i cant say as it ended the long term issue but it stopped all talking back that evening!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I do not think it is cute, but I have a sense of humor about the behavior. Otherwise, I would not have the patience.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

What's funny about a full grown shepherd mouthing you in the morning and "sometimes" in the afternoon month after month?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I agree with MBD (especially the first paragraph) and Winners. 

I am currently helping with behavior modification on pets with my TD. One of the dogs we are helping has a rather large bite history. He hasn't hesitated in the past to bite those that are handling him and those he views as a threat. His behaviors came from a place of complete insecurity and low nerve thresholds with no direction. After getting to our place he wasn't allowed to make any decisions for himself, total shut down (kinda like nilif). He learned pretty fast that biting or lunging/lashing out at us wasn't going to work at all and there was safety in obedience and obeying. Done through clear, fair (punishment matches the behavior), corrections, and positive reinforcement, for behaving correctly. Punishment is received for disobeying/noncompliance (breaking a down to bite, trying to bite instead of downing, etc...). The punishment is for disobeying the down, down is safe. All good things happen in the "down." That way it's clear that the dog can't choose the option to bite, if he lunges he gets a correction and then a repeat of the command. 

It's been really cool to watch the change in these dogs (not directly comparing to you and Skadi here). They are more free on walks, less stressed by past stressors, etc. It's like they have always been insecure partly because they have been left to their own devices and made decisions in fear, and now we are taking that away from them and they are able to be "normal" dogs (as much as genetics will allow), because we've given them some safety to observe that the world isn't that bad. If that makes sense.

So, you tell Skadi "focus" or whatever, she doesn't, you correct, she bites....At this point I would correct and repeat the command (that correction would be meaningful). Then she's being punished for refusing to comply and choosing to bite (you are showing her the option to bite isn't allowed). Imo, this should be fixed immediately. If I can see the option taken away in one session with a dog that is on the verge of being euthanized for biting, I don't think it should take long at all for *most dogs. However, this is where an experienced trainer comes in pretty handy, they can help you find that level needed for compliance.

It seems that owners downplay and dismiss a lot of behaviors early on, and then have a big problem later on (and some STILL want to dismiss or downplay reality....yes, I have now met people that downplay biting that sent someone to the doctor). I'd stop with the cutesy stuff (if your posts around here are an indication of your current tones and attitude in training), the dog still isn't clear that you and your husband are in charge of making decisions if she is still doing this, she's making her own decisions, and they aren't good ones. Good luck :-D


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

A correction is supposed to be an action tat results in a change of behavior. So you may just be nagging her. I would think that maybe a harder correction would definitely change her mind.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

and that is what you are getting
thing is 
if your dog is making decisions for itself it is a quick progression from 'sassback' to a real bite to someone other than yourself

the number one cause of dog bites imo is dogs making their own decisions with no clear leader in the home or in their lives


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd turn that nippy behavior into a training session. Pup is pushing you, take advantage and work it.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd turn that nippy behavior into a training session. Pup is pushing you, take advantage and work it.


I am liking this logic.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I think you are overplaying this a bit. It's not really that bad. She has improved SO much from where we started. I am mostly worried about extinguishing the last few vestiges of nipping we have left, and about keeping my own morale up as I do so, so could you stow the judgments, please?


That's why I said "not directly comparing to you." Yeah, of course the dog is not anything like the one I described in extremes. My point was I'd be correcting for noncompliance/disobeying. Giving me a bite/nip when I am asking for healing would get a correction/repeat command for my sport dog. He does this sometimes when he's amped up, I just try not to nag with my corrections, my corrections mean something and then we quickly move on to better things. If you are having this issue as often as you are it hasn't been made clear that it isn't allowed, it's a really easy fix imo.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> My dog sasses me back when I correct her for chewing on me. Growling, light nipping. What to do with such a bossy sassypants?


I bit back....but that was just me.....


SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> A correction is supposed to be an action tat results in a change of behavior. So you may just be nagging her. I would think that maybe a harder correction would definitely change her mind.


I am hoping so. She doesn't do this as much with my husband, perhaps because, as shepherds do, she has chosen one handler. Our other dog has chosen me, so I don't mind so much, but when I am alone with her in the mornings she tests me sometimes.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I am hoping so. She doesn't do this as much with my husband, perhaps because, as shepherds do, she has chosen one handler. Our other dog has chosen me, so I don't mind so much, but when I am alone with her in the mornings she tests me sometimes.


Then test her back......

SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> That's why I said "not directly comparing to you." Yeah, of course the dog is not anything like the one I described in extremes. My point was I'd be correcting for noncompliance/disobeying. Giving me a bite/nip when I am asking for healing would get a correction/repeat command for my sport dog. He does this sometimes when he's amped up, I just try not to nag with my corrections, my corrections mean something and then we quickly move on to better things. If you are having this issue as often as you are it hasn't been made clear that it isn't allowed, it's a really easy fix imo.


I just have to prepare myself for it. As you know, this girl is bossy and I have to be ready for her to give me a hard time. My husband actually gives her harder corrections than me, and he doesn't get nearly the runaround that I get. She has also been known to redirect onto Grim when corrected. He stands up to her though, he is pretty good with her.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Then test her back......
> 
> SuperG


I think I've got this. Herm Sprengers are strong, and Skadi must stop.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> and that is what you are getting
> thing is
> if your dog is making decisions for itself it is a quick progression from 'sassback' to a real bite to someone other than yourself
> 
> the number one cause of dog bites imo is dogs making their own decisions with no clear leader in the home or in their lives


This is the thing with her... So, so friendly and sociable to strangers, family, and friends. She saves all her drama for us. There have been a few instances where she was pushed too far.. Like the time we took her to a crowded restaurant and an over friendly waitress bent down to pet her head before I could stop her, and she growled, or the time at the lake when she didn't want to leave, and she gave my friend the crazy eye and started leaping about ( her prong stopped her from practicing any mouthing, instantly), but in public, she is generally bombproof now. I take her to the coffee shop all the time, she gets to meet puppies, my friends pet her. She lies on the ground and relaxes while I sip coffee. At home, she still tries to be a tyrant at times, but she is not yet three. We still have time.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I think I've got this. Herm Sprengers are strong, and Skadi must stop.


Perhaps....but follow-through is everything.....a prong doesn't always allow for follow-through....but you...in one form or another can guarantee "follow-through"....once the dog knows you mean what you say...all will be as it should.

SuperG


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

You need to go to trainer. You are not accustomed to giving appropriate corrections, you are now nagging her. I worry you will get stronger, but not strong enough. But it will be annoying enough to actually create an issue. Or you will go waaaay too strong and over correct. 

I applaud your desire to train her. But TBH, you have been having issues from the get go with her. I know you got her when she was older, but I think it's time to bite the bullet. 

It's obvious you are not fully invested in using corrections. Giving corrections when your heart is not behind them takes everything out of them, you are either going to fully embrace the method, or don't do it. 

I hope this did not offend, I just get worried when someone, very few months ago was vehemently against corrections, and now that same person is talking about how strong a prong collar is. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I just get worried when someone, very few months ago was vehemently against corrections, and now that same person is talking about how strong a prong collar is.


very very well put :thumbup:


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

imo she is 'bossy' because you let her be that way
she is taking the reins because you havent

i am sorry but a dog that growled when a waitress bent over her should not ever be in public places where this can happen again
this dog is a liability 
as other said get a real good trainer on board and then follow through


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> You need to go to trainer. You are not accustomed to giving appropriate corrections, you are now nagging her. I worry you will get stronger, but not strong enough. But it will be annoying enough to actually create an issue. Or you will go waaaay too strong and over correct.
> 
> I applaud your desire to train her. But TBH, you have been having issues from the get go with her. I know you got her when she was older, but I think it's time to bite the bullet.
> 
> ...


We have been going to weekly IPO trainings. There are a few particular trainers there who I trust, and who has been working with us. I will ask them for help with my technique before proceeding. I guess I am just amazed at the difference we have seen so far, and that is why I made that comment about the prong. We have been working with some really good people who know what they are doing. I think I just need to become more confident in my technique. My heart is in this for my dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

glowingtoadfly said:


> We have been going to weekly IPO trainings. There are a few particular trainers there who I trust, and who has been working with us. I will ask them for help with my technique before proceeding. I guess I am just amazed at the difference we have seen so far, and that is why I made that comment about the prong. We have been working with some really good people who know what they are doing. I think* I just need to become more confident*.


YES....that does go down the leash. Dogs know and react when the leash feedback is sketchy.
As posted previously, don't ever give the nagging corrections...they should be 'meaningful corrections'. I've heard that over and over from several different trainers(club level to world level). And once the dog knows you are confident, the respect level rises, as well as the conformity. The more YOU ask, the more you'll receive.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

simba405 said:


> What's funny about a full grown shepherd mouthing you in the morning and "sometimes" in the afternoon month after month?


What about "improving" do you not understand? This is a quirk of my dog's that I am trying to work with constructively, and find the humor in so I can get through this with her.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Teaching her to redirect to a toy can help. Fama, who a at 7 is still a landshark at heart, will catch herself amping up and grab a Kong so she can bite something acceptable. 

David Winners


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> imo she is 'bossy' because you let her be that way
> she is taking the reins because you havent
> 
> i am sorry but a dog that growled when a waitress bent over her should not ever be in public places where this can happen again
> ...


The growling incident happened last fall right after we brought her home, the restaurant was very crowded. When I take her out to coffee with me, it is at a quiet, uncrowded place. I would never put her in that particular situation again. She has been really good in public ever since, and I don't see her as a liability. Everyone she meets is very charmed by her. No one can believe that she is such a tester at home. She loves meeting strangers. I am not going to have her live her life in a bubble because of one incident when she was still adjusting.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Teaching her to redirect to a toy can help. Fama, who a at 7 is still a landshark at heart, will catch herself amping up and grab a Kong so she can bite something acceptable.
> 
> David Winners


I think Fama and Skadi may have some things in common from reading your posts about her. Been through more than one handler/ home? Check. Can be a pain in the butt? Check. It could just be wishful thinking, though. I hope to get Skadi to that point someday.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think, besides what's been mentioned, that maybe there's too much actual time lapsing between your correction and her repeat behavior. Say she's nipping you and you correct "No bite!" and then you reward her with a toy when she's not gripping your flesh "Good! Get your ball!" then she's got her beloved ball, she's not mouthing you, she was corrected for the nipping, and she was rewarded for stopping. All in under 1/10th of a second, lol. At least, that's what I would do. The yappy sassing I handle by sassing back. I say "Quiet" and huh, my dog's still barking? WTH! OK, then: "What's that you say? You need a time out? You want to _go to your bed_?" Hmm, this makes him stop and think. No he most definitely does not want to be locked up, and out of the action. He knows what _that_ phrase means, and he knows he'll be crated if he doesn't quit whatever I've asked him to, so it's not a complicated decision for him to comply.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

That sounds like a good plan.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Teaching her to redirect to a toy can help. Fama, who a at 7 is still a landshark at heart, will catch herself amping up and grab a Kong so she can bite something acceptable.
> 
> David Winners


Jade, my da female rescue, redirects herself too. She is an alpha wannabe, and I have had to correct her a number of times for going after poor Orick--he had enough of that as a baby, and I'm not going to let her beat up on him, too. So Jade, who has a very good brain, will grab a nylabone or a kong instead of grabbing poor Orick, and she takes all her aggression out on the toy, and the bad moment passes. Sometimes she gets a little too carried away with the toys, though, tossing them and catching them--MOST of the time. She tossed a nylabone once and hit my fish tank--but the glass held and the fish were safe!

Susan


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've trained Onyx to carry a toy so she won't bite Kacie when they are out playing. Kacie knows that she is safer when Onyx has a mouth full of Cuzball. If Onyx doesn't have a toy, Kacie will hang back, stick close to me and not hit the wide open areas of the yard. 
Onyx knows she can redirect her bites into the toy, she never, ever spits it to get a fight going~thank Dog!
Though, I see Kacie tagging Onyx when they are running so I know one day the s could hit the fan.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I may have to soften the " no toys in the house" rule to make this work. If she has a toy in the house, she will pester us to play constantly <3.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so turn that push to play into a fun obedience session?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She has been known to gnaw on my feet to get me to play.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I wouldnt put up with my girl growling at me. The attitude that you think your dog is sassypants is part of the problem- its a dog.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't see growls as something to "put up with" or not. I see them as communication, and I have a very vocal dog. She growls for many different reasons. I encourage the play growls, and try to counter condition away the resource growls and handling growls with toys and food. She has vastly improved with her handling sensitivity, and will now solicit petting. Her first owner was very "old school" ( and very sweet), and I will not go into the story of why I believe she is so hand shy. Skadi is a complicated case. I am comfortable correcting her for the nipping, but the growling is something else. On another thread, there was talk of dogs who leak drive, and in that thread they basically described my dog. I think one of the ways she "leaks" is by growling.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

volcano said:


> I wouldnt put up with my girl growling at me. The attitude that you think your dog is sassypants is part of the problem- its a dog.


:thumbup:

lol terms like sassy pants and bossy. not sure whos the dog and whos the human here.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

growling is also a sign of insecurity....not always leaking. But you know your dog best, the vocal ones communicate all the time with vocalizations. My male is fairly noisy during the times we aren't working. When we are training however, he is not a vocal leaker or growler on the sleeve or when we tug. 
He does tend to bark during protection, but he can control it when I correct him. I want him to learn to sustain a good powerful bark, which he does well.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't subscribe to dominance theory. I try to look at things from the dog's perspective.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm a member of the "no growl" club....had my first dog growl at me once....over who's bed mine was...Never happened with the next 3...

I suppose (in hindsight)...I should have seen the first situation evolving but my excuse is...it was my first dog.

The next three, I took my shots from the pups at a young age where correction seemed easier to implement....but never a growl at me


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I don't subscribe to dominance theory. I try to look at things from the dog's perspective.


That's noble....and I certainly try to do the same at times.....but..I am a true believer in the notion ( in a dog's perspective )....they thrive to lead or be led.

SuperG


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I don't subscribe to alpha stuff. If it works for you, great. My husband does believe she is dominant. We have had many discussions on why I think it's silly. I'm sure, just as silly as people find me for calling her a bossypants and sassy. At our house, we give the dogs their own voices and speak in those voices constantly, and make up little songs about them. We think it's fun.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

At our club, generally, growling during tug or "play" is a sign of conflict. Growling isn't corrected for, but rather we try and steer clear of "conflicting" actions, grabbing the toy from the mouth when they approach, etc. Getting rid of that conflict is worked on. Instead of making "out" by lifting on the collar, a trade is made. Conflicting actions are minimized. Another sign is when the head is completely down when they bring the toy into you during play, the dog chews the toy as it carries or brings it in to you, if the dog has a grip and is growling and hectically thrashing on the sleeve/suit when you come in to touch, cradle etc.... I'm not under the impression that growling during tug or play is leaking. Leaking, to me, is a dog that is in a sit or down (basically under obedience), waiting for a bite...the tug...praise...whatever the reward is.....and whining/barking/whimpering, etc during the obedience, not while playing....But I'm still learning, so maybe I'm wrong.

ETA: Just saw Jane addressed this too, need to read all posts before commenting.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

No, I found your take on it interesting.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

This is somewhat what we have been told to do at our group. She has made a lot of progress with being handled while tugging with the helper. My husband and I have been working on this at home. She also play growls when she is tugging a toy with her brother.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm probably wrong about the growling being drive-leaking.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so what is the reason then?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We have her much better with RG than when we started, but she still occasionally growls over her ball. And she still does not like her feet handled, medicine put in her ears, etc. I read recently that dogs sometimes RG their bodies... She did not used to allow us to handle her head, but now she solicits ear scritches and petting.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Now I'm getting the sass, but not the nipping. Strange little critter.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am not up to reading the whole thread (sick), but what are you correcting her with? Personally, as long as the dog doesn't bite me and does what I ask I tend to ignore vocal "comments".


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

A prong collar. I don't mind the displeased vocalizations as long as she doesn't nip me for reaching for her handle. She has only tried that a few times. Hope you are feeling better!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

She may be pain stimulating with the prong. I assume it is on the live ring? I would try using the dead ring (the two rings together) and see if that lessons the vocalization. I would also have a leash/long line on her so that you are not reaching for a tab to give her a correction. If she needs a correction then by the time you reach for the tab/handle it is already too late for the correction. A correction should be quick and immediate and not after the fact.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I will have to try that, thank you.


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## GSD Owner in Training :-) (Jul 8, 2013)

So would the correction be you flicking the lead that is connected to the prong collar?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Go for in between nagging and Come To Jesus


If a dog of mine bites me, *on purpose*, we go straight to Jesus.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She has been pretty good lately. She redirected onto me once when she was mad at her brother for bothering her last week. I haven't had a problem with that since deciding to protect her from his puppy bugging, which really amps her up. Now I body block him from trying to get her going.


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