# Question Re: Working Line Temperaments?



## Lakl

I have never owned a working line GSD, but wouldn't mind having one one day. I have recently been looking into the different working lines and talking to a couple different breeders. In general, a good working line pup for myself would be one that is suitable in a companion home/family setting, yet still has the drives to work and train. My interests would be obedience/agility. I like to go hiking, so I would also like a dog I could take anywhere and be comfortable in any setting.

However, something the I've noted in my research is that there seem to be a good deal of working line breeders out there whose dogs are geared towards specific sports settings and only suitable for strict sport homes. I spoke to someone yesterday about a potential breeding next year. I liked the sire, but knew nothing of his temperament, so gave all of my wishes and background. Not one word about this not being a suitable litter. After hanging up, I do some more research on the dog and find out this dog, though titled many times over, could not be approached by anyone outside the owner, including a vet and had to be vetted at home because of this. Socially unstable is the term that was used. I spoke with someone that owned one of his sons, that the breeder chose for them, and had experienced almost the same thing - dominant dog that constantly tested its handler. The term used for the son was "nightmare" of uncertainty.

So my question is this, and I am brand spanking new, so forgive me if I am incorrect, but why does it seem acceptable in the working world to produce dogs that excel in the sport, but are socially unstable? Dogs that require a firm handler and are sometimes unsuitable for family homes? I thought the GSD, whether working or show were supposed to be bred to be sound in ALL areas? I often hear complaints about SL dogs lacking the ability to be true working dogs, but shouldn't true working dogs also possess the ability to conform to a normal social setting?


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## GSDElsa

Why are you saying it's "acceptable"because you found one example of it?


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## Lakl

No, because I've seen it many times...

Sorry, listed in descriptions on various breeders' websites...


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## Lakl

There were 2 working dogs posted just yesterday boasted as being superb examples of their lines in structure, conformation, bone, etc. and were titled many times over and sired many progeny in their time, but nothing was ever mentioned of the fact that these dogs could only be visited or viewed if locked safely within a kennel...

This is just an honest question towards the standards...


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## onyx'girl

I don't believe that it is common. But many people who train their dogs for sportwork aren't into the "socializing" aspect and their dogs are basically kenneled, worked, kenneled, exercised. But not out and about with other people. And some are dog aggressive. 
Maybe if the dog wasn't isolated to that lifestyle it would be more social/doesn't necessarily mean it is genetics.
Where are you seeing these postings?


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## GSDElsa

It's not common nor acceptable to the vast majority of people. Or breeders. If you are finding a plethora of dogs like this I would say you are looking in the wrong place


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm sure there are a few dogs/breeders out there like you describe, but I tend to agree with Jane, that they may not be into the 'socializing' aspect of things and therefore their dogs are 'one person' dogs.

I'm not sure where your looking but if your in the northeast, I like Liberatore's dogs in Maine..I've heard alot of good things about her dogs, and know someone who is a close friend of hers..


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## Lakl

Maybe I am being too broad. How about a specific working line? Like Czech. I think these are beautiful, well built, solid Looking animals. But in general, would you say temperament wise, that these lines are suitable for an active companion/family home without a specific working job?


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## carmspack

Lakl -- said "that there seem to be a good deal of working line breeders out there whose dogs are geared towards specific sports settings and only suitable for strict sport homes" to which I respond , then they are NOT working . Whole lot of good they are if you can't take them out and employ them , in what ever endeavour, if they are a hazard , a liability , useless. WORK is all about utility , and reliability . Can't stress this enough.
Now there are a lot of breeders who buy names like a franchise and trade on it , or breeders who buy "names" and breed them and sell the offspring , first come first serve , who have no idea what they have and are even flippant when a whole community of experienced breeders , and even former owners , clearly say "this dog is ..... " fill in the blanks , with warnings. Yet everyone ewwws and gooos about the bone ... . Some dogs are made to be meaner and badder - yet they are just dogs, but the bad-boy image appeals and that creates sales. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl

> How about a specific working line? Like Czech. I think these are beautiful, well built, solid Looking animals. But in general, would you say temperament wise, that these lines are suitable for an active companion/family home without a specific working job?


I have a Czech/WG male and he is more than suitable! As long as he gets mental and physical exercise he is fine. His temperament is stable and he has a high threshold. My females will bark at whatever, he will assess then decide what to do...a thinker.
Whatever breeding you decide to go with, look at what the breeder has produced in the past, and the progeny of sire and dam both. 
My dogs sire is Czech ~ here is his history and a description of his temperament(thanks to Cliff for writing up such a great treasure trove of information on him)
Andy Maly Vah PSA1, SchH3, IPO3, PDK-9 (Ret.), CDX, RN, TC, TDI/CGC


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## JakodaCD OA

my dog is czech/ddr mostly czech I believe, I am an active person. Masi doesn't have a 'specific job', we dabble in different things. She does require alot of exercise, physical and mental. At this age (3) she finally has a good off switch and settles pretty well in the house. 

But she IS ready to go even if she's been 'going' for the past whatever hours

Dogs are not all alike even from the same "lines".. Mine would not do well in a home that expected her to hang out inside the house all day,,she'd go bonkers

In all litters there are going to be puppies that end up on the higher end of the activity level than others. It pays to have a breeder who can 'peg' their puppies and determine which if any, of those puppies would be a good fit for your expectations.

Just my experience, and the majority of the gsd's I've had were atleast 1/2 DDR with some czech thrown in somewhere, Masi is the first I've had with the most "czech" ..love her to death, she's alotta fun


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## Lakl

carmspack said:


> Lakl -- said "that there seem to be a good deal of working line breeders out there whose dogs are geared towards specific sports settings and only suitable for strict sport homes" to which I respond , then they are NOT working . Whole lot of good they are if you can't take them out and employ them , in what ever endeavour, if they are a hazard , a liability , useless. WORK is all about utility , and reliability . Can't stress this enough.
> Now there are a lot of breeders who buy names like a franchise and trade on it , or breeders who buy "names" and breed them and sell the offspring , first come first serve , who have no idea what they have and are even flippant when a whole community of experienced breeders , and even former owners , clearly say "this dog is ..... " fill in the blanks , with warnings. Yet everyone ewwws and gooos about the bone ... . Some dogs are made to be meaner and badder - yet they are just dogs, but the bad-boy image appeals and that creates sales.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


YES! This!


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## Lakl

@ Jane - beautiful dog!

@ Diane - I'm not so much referring to activity levels, as I am natural aggression. I spoke to a couple people about Czech dogs who basically told me that it was all about the handler of the dogs, and that the first sign of weakness could lead to a scary situation in such a dominant dog. I'm thinking to myself at the time, "Why should I ever be on edge with a dog I've raised since 8 wks old and why would it be okay to breed a dog with this type of aggression towards its own owner?". 

But I would feel at ease to know that this not a general consensus, which is why I posted here...


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## JakodaCD OA

gotcha I agree with you, I have NEVER been afraid or on edge with ANY of the dogs I've had , I honestly don't know 'why' someone would be afraid of their own dog, unless they are ill prepared to own a dog. 

I don't consider my dog(s) to be 'dominante" I think the word is over and mis used. 

I also would never have a dog who decided it was going to show aggression towards ME,,I would figure it had a screw loose and frankly, it wouldn't fly with me And IF it had a screw loose, no way would I want it reproducing..


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## onyx'girl

There are dogs that are edgy. They need to have a handler that knows what they are doing and those handlers knew what they were getting into when they chose the pup. These dogs are not for the casual family type situation and IMO can be a liability if they aren't managed with care. Again, the owners are aware of that and do manage them carefully....and yes they will be bred in the future. I know of two males that I see now and then, and they are not Czech but WGWL's. They are kennel dogs, and one has been in a few different placements before ending up where he is now. He is owned/trained by someone with experience with this type dog & the now owner is loving every minute of it!


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## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> There are dogs that are edgy. They need to have a handler that knows what they are doing and those handlers knew what they were getting into when they chose the pup. These dogs are not for the casual family type situation and IMO can be a liability if they aren't managed with care. Again, the owners are aware of that and do manage them carefully....and yes they will be bred in the future. I know of two males that I see now and then, and they are not Czech but WGWL's. They are kennel dogs, and one has been in a few different placements before ending up where he is now. He is owned/trained by someone with experience with this type dog & the now owner is loving every minute of it!


But my question is "Is it acceptable to the breed standard to breed these types of working dogs?" i.e., a dog that has to change hands several times in order to find that one person that can handle it's "edgy" temperament? Isn't that the same as someone breeding a nervy showline because it has outstanding conformation in the show ring?


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## Lakl

For someone like myself, even with access to very knowledgeable GSD people, it's almost scary shopping for a long term commitment that could potentially be a liability because of misinformation and iffy terms used by breeders promoting their dogs...

A term I was given yesterday was that a litter would most likely be very "civil". For someone like me, that could be soo misconstrued when what they meant were high strung and potentially aggressive?


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## onyx'girl

It is wrong to breed a dog for this trait, but 'don't throw out the baby with the bathwater' either. You carefully select who you will breed to. It isn't the same thing as conformation type breeding, the ones I know who are breeding these dogs understand genetics and know pedigrees in and out. They aren't breeding for the pet market.
Though there are people who will say they want a dog like this, and then not be able to handle it or put the wrong foundation on it...then rehome it. It is not something I agree with at all, but it is happening, I know. 
Thats why it is up to breeders to screen the potential buyers so they set the dog up to succeed.
I know of a well known breeder who sold a dog to someone who was going to work the pup in Schh...instead the dog never got anything more than a crate. At one year the dog was placed with a person I train with. The dog had no muscle mass, was reactive to everyone and it was all because it had no foundation training, no socialization. He is doing very well now,but is lower threshold and needs careful management. It isn't always the breeders fault...or the dogs.


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## horsegirl

onyx'girl said:


> It is wrong to breed a dog for this trait, but 'don't throw out the baby with the bathwater' either. You carefully select who you will breed to. It isn't the same thing as conformation type breeding, I think the ones breeding these dogs understand genetics and know pedigrees in and out. They aren't breeding for the pet market.


are you saying that confirmation breeders do not breed for temperament?


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## onyx'girl

With many SL breeders, conformation/color is more important than temperament.


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## Emoore

onyx'girl said:


> With many SL breeders, conformation/color is more important than temperament.


Unfortunately it seems like that's becoming true in more and more breeders of WL dogs as well.


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## onyx'girl

I agree, but I don't think it is *looks* that the WL breeders are looking at...well the black sable fad, maybe?


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## Lakl

Emoore said:


> Unfortunately it seems like that's becoming true in more and more breeders of WL dogs as well.


I just rarely see it ever pointed out, and was something I just kinda stumbled upon as I was talking to several working line breeders and visiting several sites. It's just seems to me, at least, that aggression in working line dogs is considered more acceptable than weak nerves in showlines dogs. That a good bit of these dogs are being bred for the sport, and all other issues need to be worked out by the handler/owner.


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## Emoore

Lakl said:


> I just rarely see it ever pointed out, and was something I just kinda stumbled upon as I was talking to several working line breeders and visiting several sites. It's just seems to me, at least, that aggression in working line dogs is considered more acceptable than weak nerves in showlines dogs. That a good bit of these dogs are being bred for the sport, and all other issues need to be worked out by the handler/owner.


Well. . . . this is a breed that should have a bit of natural aggression. It should not have even a tiny bit of weak nerves. so that's part of it. One person's "appropriate aggression" is another person's "completely unacceptable." 

I personally would not buy a dog if the parents couldn't be neutral towards a neutral stranger.


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## gagsd

Emoore said:


> ....
> 
> I personally would not buy a dog if the parents couldn't be neutral towards a neutral stranger.


And then you have to define neutral. I have a dog completely approachable by strangers. But just try to "hug" him or "correct" him and you will get a very ugly response.


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## Lakl

So how do you then draw the lines on what is acceptable to the STANDARD? Or have we drawn our own lines according to what our goals are for the dogs being produced?


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## Emoore

gagsd said:


> And then you have to define neutral. I have a dog completely approachable by strangers. But just try to "hug" him or "correct" him and you will get a very ugly response.


Now I agree with you there. Trying to hug or correct a strange GSD is just stupid. To me that's not neutral. But I think it's a good answer to Lakl's question about why what he/she views as inappropriate aggression is tolerated in some breeders of working line dogs. Different definitions of "neutral", different definitions of "aloof", different definitions of "appropriate aggression.




Lakl said:


> So how do you then draw the lines on what is acceptable to the STANDARD? Or have we drawn our own lines according to what our goals are for the dogs being produced?


That is what has happened. Now you have to draw your own lines about what you want as a buyer.


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## Lakl

gagsd said:


> And then you have to define neutral. I have a dog completely approachable by strangers. But just try to "hug" him or "correct" him and you will get a very ugly response.


This! My 7 yr old daughter and sometimes neighborhood kids loves to hug my GSD and lay with him. If he doesn't want to be bothered, he'll simply get up and move away. She's not a threat, so I don't expect him to act aggressively. If I had a dog that posed a risk to do this, he'd simply have to go...


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## Lakl

Emoore said:


> That is what has happened. Now you have to draw your own lines about what you want as a buyer.



I know what I want, but finding a breeder whose dogs can be trusted to that extent doesn't seem as easy... I don't actually like that he will let strangers hug him. I like "aloof", but I also don't want to worry about a house guest making the wrong move and having a liability on my hands...


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## Emoore

Lakl said:


> This! My 7 yr old daughter and sometimes neighborhood kids loves to hug my GSD and lay with him. If he doesn't want to be bothered, he'll simply get up and move away. She's not a threat, so I don't expect him to act aggressively. If I had a dog that posed a risk to do this, he'd simply have to go...


Exactly. I don't expect my dog to put up with being hugged by strange people or neighborhood kids. Heck, I don't put up with being hugged by strangers or neighborhood kids. I wouldn't have a problem with him growling or snarling about it. Your own, kid, of course, should be a different story, but this is a perfect example of the two of us having different definitions of what constitutes "appropriate aggression." You think it's inappropriate for a dog to growl at a neighborhood kid who's trying to hug him. I think it can be appropriate. Different buyers, different breeders perhaps.


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## Lakl

Emoore said:


> Exactly. I don't expect my dog to put up with being hugged by strange people or neighborhood kids. Heck, I don't put up with being hugged by strangers or neighborhood kids. I wouldn't have a problem with him growling or snarling about it. Your own, kid, of course, should be a different story, but this is a perfect example of the two of us having different definitions of what constitutes "appropriate aggression." You think it's inappropriate for a dog to growl at a neighborhood kid who's trying to hug him. I think it can be appropriate. Different buyers, different breeders perhaps.


Your right. I would expect my dog to growl at someone that poses as a threat, not a child trying to show affection. And with this distortion and difference in acceptable behavior comes my dilemma in finding a working line breeder who considers their dogs "acceptable" for an active family or social lifestyle. Because what is acceptable to some is not so much to others...


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## onyx'girl

Children should not hug dogs to show affection unless it is their own dog! That is how so many kids get bitten by all different breeds. 
I would not want a child hugging on my dogs either. My dogs wouldn't want a kid to hug them unless they had a relationship with that person(regardless of age).
Click on Karlo's name in my signature if you want to find a good WL breeder that will fill your requirements.


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## GSDElsa

To me this just sounds like you needing to know what questions to ask. If having parents that are social is important to you, then ask very pointed questions to find out their temperments. 

There are lines and dogs that are much more geared towards the serious handler...I do not think there is anything wrong with dogs being strong enough that your average dog over shouldn't own them...if a breeder is not breeding with a "pet" anywhere in mind, fine. But the level of "social instability" that you are describing in your first post is borderline insane and I cannot think of a single GSD person that I know that would find a dog that cannot leave it's house or it's home SchH field because it's so pyschotic acceptable.


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## GSDElsa

I would also like to point out that just because a dog has ACCEPTED being climbed all over by strange children in the past does not mean that it will continue indefinitely to be OK with it.

This is how bites happen....people put their dogs in situations they probably shouldn't have. Even the most social and docile dogs out there.


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## Lakl

I don't put my dogs in or allow situations they can't handle. My kids have friends, they like to come over. My female will not allow a child to hug her, she will simply dodge them, move away. My male will allow hugs until he doesn't like it anymore and move away. They've never growled at anyone not perceived as a threat, and they've never bitten anyone. I like the fact that I can trust them around anyone I invite into my home. For me, worrying about whether my dog will bite a child for rubbing it the wrong way is a liability and unacceptable.

If this is not something that I can find in a working line GSD, then I will accept that and move on.


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## Emoore

Lakl said:


> Your right. I would expect my dog to growl at someone that poses as a threat, not a child trying to show affection.


See, to me a growl is communication. Kid hugs dog, dog growls, and either the kid stops hugging or an adult remedies the situation. I expect my dog to communicate with me about the hugging kid, and friggin EAT the person posing a true threat.


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## Samba

A working line should be a stable animal. They can come with a good deal of intelligence and serviceable drives. I find often the problems arise when people do not know how to work with dogs of intelligence and depth of available drives. I know I made my mistakes when learning. 

My WL dog out of high level sport competition parents is great at our parades. He loves activities, people and kiddos. He does not particularly love other male dogs in his face. He has to be trained and handled in a way that matches his strength and abilities. I have met a lot of stable WL dogs.


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## carmspack

Lakl your breeder survey got this response " I spoke to a couple people about Czech dogs who basically told me that it was all about the handler of the dogs, and that the first sign of weakness could lead to a scary situation in such a dominant dog."

Choose a dog from a working line that is historically known to genetically have, and is deliberately selected to promote, a willing nature to work , a happy compliance not needing sophistication in techniques, or equipment , or conditioning , a versatility in the balance of the pedigree, a high threshold or tolerance level, and a clear , sane , mind , in a healthy body . Clear in the head -- STABLE . 

You repeat on theme of fear of aggression. Let me use carmspack chunko Sch H 3 , posed here by Linda Shaw Carmspack Chunko - German Shepherd Dog was high scoring in schutzhund , went to the Nationals trial 10 - Fred Boutin & Carmspack Chunko - Rainforest Photography, was selected as "decoys choice" recognized for his hardness and serious fight drive --- YET -- is so stable that an 8 year old could walk him around and the dog had complete respect and obedience for the boy. I have "family" pictures of Chunko who went "missing" in the house and was found to be enjoying a bath with the boy , standing in the tub pawing a ducky . 
This dog has that genetic obedience.

It is all about stability and temperament. How many distress threads are there on this forum of nasty dogs with bad temperament and they are back yard bred , plain old dogs of no special genetic background.

What you want has to be selected for in breeding.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lakl

carmspack said:


> Lakl your breeder survey got this response " I spoke to a couple people about Czech dogs who basically told me that it was all about the handler of the dogs, and that the first sign of weakness could lead to a scary situation in such a dominant dog."
> 
> Choose a dog from a working line that is historically known to genetically have, and is deliberately selected to promote, a willing nature to work , a happy compliance not needing sophistication in techniques, or equipment , or conditioning , a versatility in the balance of the pedigree, a high threshold or tolerance level, and a clear , sane , mind , in a healthy body . Clear in the head -- STABLE .
> 
> You repeat on theme of fear of aggression. Let me use carmspack chunko Sch H 3 , posed here by Linda Shaw Carmspack Chunko - German Shepherd Dog was high scoring in schutzhund , went to the Nationals trial 10 - Fred Boutin & Carmspack Chunko - Rainforest Photography, was selected as "decoys choice" recognized for his hardness and serious fight drive --- YET -- is so stable that an 8 year old could walk him around and the dog had complete respect and obedience for the boy. I have "family" pictures of Chunko who went "missing" in the house and was found to be enjoying a bath with the boy , standing in the tub pawing a ducky .
> This dog has that genetic obedience.
> 
> It is all about stability and temperament. How many distress threads are there on this forum of nasty dogs with bad temperament and they are back yard bred , plain old dogs of no special genetic background.
> 
> What you want has to be selected for in breeding.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Thank you! This! This is what I would want. But I have a hard time verbalizing this and breeding for this type of stabilty doesn't seem to be as marketed as dogs who have the drive and hardness for serious sport.


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## GSDElsa

Lakl said:


> Thank you! This! This is what I would want. But I have a hard time verbalizing this and breeding for this type of stabilty doesn't seem to be as marketed as dogs who have the drive and hardness for serious sport.


That's because people don't market it. Why would they? Just because they don't market it doesn't mean their dogs aren't stable. 

I also don't think it's anything "special" that a dog likes to play "shadow" for the kids in the family. I think that's pretty much what an normal dog would do.


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## Lakl

GSDElsa said:


> That's because people don't market it. Why would they? Just because they don't market it doesn't mean their dogs aren't stable.
> 
> I also don't think it's anything "special" that a dog likes to play "shadow" for the kids in the family. I think that's pretty much what an normal dog would do.


Because at least to me, if people were marketing working dogs that were serious sport competitors, yet stable and sound companions, then perhaps people would view them as breeding well rounded animals suitable for the versatility they were original bred for??


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## onyx'girl

Where are you looking for breeders? Instead of looking on the internet, get out and watch the dogs work/see for yourself the temperaments and then you'll get a better picture of the dogs.
Not at trials, but at training if possible. You can find different clubs in your area here: United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breeders Directory


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## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> Where are you looking for breeders? Instead of looking on the internet, get out and watch the dogs work/see for yourself the temperaments and then you'll get a better picture of the dogs.
> Not at trials, but at training if possible. You can find different clubs in your area here: United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breeders Directory


I wish I could. The only thing I've found close to me is a GSD club about an hour away. I called the woman that heads it and it's basically all American line GSD people, no schutzund or anything. 

I've just been browsing breeders posted by members of different forums and calling a few. I'm not looking to get a pup for a couple years, but I want to make sure I get it right this time around when I do. I've never owned a working line either, and want to learn as much as I can. I just kinda found it discouraging talking to the few breeders that I did that a certain level of aggression was considered the norm. There are a few working breeders that I liked, but again, I've found that they'd rather see their pups going to serious working homes or are hesitant about placing their pups with someone who's never owned a working line...


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## GSDElsa

Lakl said:


> I just kinda found it discouraging talking to the few breeders that I did that a certain level of aggression was considered the norm.


Well, a "certain level of aggression" is not only the norm, it IS in the breed standard. I would be quite discouraged if GSD did not have it.


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## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> Where are you looking for breeders? Instead of looking on the internet, get out and watch the dogs work/see for yourself the temperaments and then you'll get a better picture of the dogs.
> Not at trials, but at training if possible. You can find different clubs in your area here: United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breeders Directory


Closest to me is 4.5 hours...


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## Lakl

GSDElsa said:


> Well, a "certain level of aggression" is not only the norm, it IS in the breed standard. I would be quite discouraged if GSD did not have it.


I keep using that term, but not what I mean. I should say "instability".


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## BR870

Lakl said:


> I keep using that term, but not what I mean. I should say "instability".


Well, I would say the opinion you have formed on the internet is not reflective of reality. WL dogs tend to be pretty stable... Considerably more so IMO than the nervy edge found on most American line dogs. 

If I had to choose between leaving my child unattend with some random WL dog and some random American line dog... I would take my chances with the WL dog. Not that I would do so with either, but in that situation, poor nerves is far more likely to lead to a problem dog than will high drive and being "civil". Sure some ASL dogs are big couch potatoes that would never hurt a fly, but far too many are nervy wrecks that will bite because they cannot discern a real threat

BTW, "civil" has nothing to do with instability. "Civil" is how willing a dog is to bite for real and not just view it as a sleeve game. "Civil" is not necessarily a bad thing. 

Maybe you were meaning "sharp", but even that is not necessarily bad...


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## Cassidy's Mom

I think one thing you'd want would be high thresholds, and if you made that clear, along with all the other stuff discussed in this thread, you'd probably do fine as long as you were working with a breeder who knew their lines well and makes puppy matches thoughtfully and carefully. A good breeder is going to be just as concerned as you are that their puppies go to the most appropriate homes. 

Elements of Temperament

Leerburg | Terms Used in Protection Dog Training (scroll down to thresholds)



> For example, we do not want to see high thresholds to the behaviors that we want - like prey and fight but we do want to see high thresholds for undesirable traits like survival - self defense and flight.


But for an active pet household you _do_ want high thresholds for prey and fight, so those puppies in the litter would be more suitable for you than for someone who is looking for a Schutzhund prospect.


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## Cassidy's Mom

BR870 said:


> BTW, "civil" has nothing to do with instability. "Civil" is how willing a dog is to bite for real and not just view it as a sleeve game. "Civil" is not necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> Maybe you were meaning "sharp", but even that is not necessarily bad...


Not necessarily bad, but probably not optimum for a family pet either.


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## BR870

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Not necessarily bad, but probably not optimum for a family pet either.


Agreed, but the OP is going at this topic as if its not understood why a WL breeder would want these traits at all. I'm just pointing out that a dog being either civil and/or sharp does not mean the dog is unstable.


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## Lakl

BR870 said:


> Well, I would say the opinion you have formed on the internet is not reflective of reality. WL dogs tend to be pretty stable... Considerably more so IMO than the nervy edge found on most American line dogs.
> 
> If I had to choose between leaving my child unattend with some random WL dog and some random American line dog... I would take my chances with the WL dog. Not that I would do so with either, but in that situation, poor nerves is far more likely to lead to a problem dog than will high drive and being "civil". Sure some ASL dogs are big couch potatoes that would never hurt a fly, but far too many are nervy wrecks that will bite because they cannot discern a real threat
> 
> BTW, "civil" has nothing to do with instability. "Civil" is how willing a dog is to bite for real and not just view it as a sleeve game. "Civil" is not necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> Maybe you were meaning "sharp", but even that is not necessarily bad...


I didn't form these thoughts from just browsing the internet. I spoke to some breeders and spoke to people that have their dogs or are familiar and have met their dogs. I pulled the pedigrees on the litters and asked more experienced people to have a look. The feedback was not what I was hoping for. Websites don't really tell you much outside of what they have in their breeding stock.

I don't know anything about AM lines, and have never owned one. I have 2 WGSL, and I can leave any child alone with either of them, but never have outside of my own children - alone that is, but not because I don't trust the dogs, but because I don't trust other people's kids around my dogs.

The term "Civil" was used with me in this context:
I said I would like an active family companion that could be a prospect for agility/obedience training. We discussed breeding plans for next year and the expectations of the pups. Litter A the breeder thought might be a good fit. Litter B, they felt the pups were going to be civil and probably not a good match. 

Based on what your saying, because they didn't really elaborate on the "civil" term, she didn't want to match me with one of these pups because they are more likely to bite or require a more experienced handler?


----------



## onyx'girl

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think one thing you'd want would be high thresholds, and if you made that clear, along with all the other stuff discussed in this thread, you'd probably do fine as long as you were working with a breeder who knew their lines well and makes puppy matches thoughtfully and carefully. A good breeder is going to be just as concerned as you are that their puppies go to the most appropriate homes.
> 
> Elements of Temperament
> 
> Leerburg | Terms Used in Protection Dog Training (scroll down to thresholds)
> 
> 
> 
> But for an active pet household you _do_ want high thresholds for prey and fight, so those puppies in the litter would be more suitable for you than for someone who is looking for a Schutzhund prospect.


I want a dog with higher thresholds. Not so high that they won't activate, but certainly higher is better, IMO. I think a dog with a higher threshold is more of a thinker and won't react unless they feel they need to.
Dogs that will go off at a movement, noise or whatever are not thinking but just reacting. 
They may look great when they are all ramped up showing teeth and snarling at the helper, but do they know why they are doing it?


----------



## onyx'girl

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think one thing you'd want would be high thresholds, and if you made that clear, along with all the other stuff discussed in this thread, you'd probably do fine as long as you were working with a breeder who knew their lines well and makes puppy matches thoughtfully and carefully. A good breeder is going to be just as concerned as you are that their puppies go to the most appropriate homes.
> 
> Elements of Temperament
> 
> Leerburg | Terms Used in Protection Dog Training (scroll down to thresholds)
> 
> 
> 
> But for an active pet household you _do_ want high thresholds for prey and fight, so those puppies in the litter would be more suitable for you than for someone who is looking for a Schutzhund prospect.


I want a dog with higher thresholds as a SchH dog, too. Not so high that they won't activate, but certainly higher is better, IMO. I think a dog with a higher threshold is more of a thinker and won't react unless they feel they need to.
Dogs that will go off at a movement, noise or whatever are not thinking but just reacting. 
They may look great in pictures when they are all ramped up showing teeth and snarling at the helper, but do they know why they are doing it?


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## Smithie86

Depends on the lines, the dogs and the trainer/breeder.

All our dogs are extremely social. Norbo was out and about at the ME Regionals ( as well as his brother that lives in MI). We had Quasi (SCH3, KK1) out and about at the Nationals -he tried grabbing Gappay balls from Jim Hill at Hallmark, schmoozed with everyone, watched the closing ceremonies....

Frodo is a one person dog - and that person is Gabor. They have a connection and it is great to watch - based on a great relationship 1st. I respect that. He likes me and other people are OK - he LOVES Gabor.


----------



## BR870

Lakl said:


> I didn't form these thoughts from just browsing the internet. I spoke to some breeders and spoke to people that have their dogs or are familiar and have met their dogs. I pulled the pedigrees on the litters and asked more experienced people to have a look. The feedback was not what I was hoping for. Websites don't really tell you much outside of what they have in their breeding stock.
> 
> I don't know anything about AM lines, and have never owned one. I have 2 WGSL, and I can leave any child alone with either of them, but never have outside of my own children - alone that is, but not because I don't trust the dogs, but because I don't trust other people's kids around my dogs.
> 
> The term "Civil" was used with me in this context:
> I said I would like an active family companion that could be a prospect for agility/obedience training. We discussed breeding plans for next year and the expectations of the pups. Litter A the breeder thought might be a good fit. Litter B, they felt the pups were going to be civil and probably not a good match.
> 
> Based on what your saying, because they didn't really elaborate on the "civil" term, she didn't want to match me with one of these pups because they are more likely to bite or require a more experienced handler?


Civil is how willing a dog is to fight for real, not a game. Will the dog bite for real? No sleeve, no game... For Real... In theory a good GSD should be civil, because otherwise Schutzhund or other protection work is just a show, because real bad guys don't wear sleeves or bite suits. So a good fully rounded dog should be "civil" enough to do it for real. JMHO...

It is not about unstable. You can have a very hard, very civil dog that is rock solid stable. What matters is how well the dog can discern a threat


----------



## Lakl

BR870 said:


> Agreed, but the OP is going at this topic as if its not understood why a WL breeder would want these traits at all. I'm just pointing out that a dog being either civil and/or sharp does not mean the dog is unstable.


You are misunderstanding me. And there's some information from my experience that I don't feel comfortable repeating on an open forum. This is probably going to open a can of worms, BUT...

I am saying that from what I understand, that are certain standards set for this breed in conformation and temperament. On both sides - working and show, there are, of course, breeders that go outside these standards to meet their own personal goals or what they feel the demands of the market is. But when was the last time you saw any working line breeders called out on open forums for not producing dogs that fell within the lines of these standards? This is just my personal observation, but it seems that when dogs are being bred that are a liability or risk in any social setting, those breeders are never called out as going outside the standard or ruining the breed. It seems that as long as these dogs excel in a sport and are healthy, they are deemed worthy of breeding. Is it because these dogs are great sports competitors? Why should the temperament standard be any different whether show or working, american or german? And I'm not talking drives, I'm talking temperamental stability.


----------



## onyx'girl

Most working line breeders are not going by AKC standards...

The United Schutzhund Clubs of America Inc. is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the "Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)" in Germany and is strongly devoted to create and promote the German Shepherd Dog in its original breeding as a working dog.
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
Character

The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


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## Jack's Dad

Lakl said:


> You are misunderstanding me. And there's some information from my experience that I don't feel comfortable repeating on an open forum. This is probably going to open a can of worms, BUT...
> 
> I am saying that from what I understand, that are certain standards set for this breed in conformation and temperament. On both sides - working and show, there are, of course, breeders that go outside these standards to meet their own personal goals or what they feel the demands of the market is. But when was the last time you saw any working line breeders called out on open forums for not producing dogs that fell within the lines of these standards? This is just my personal observation, but it seems that when dogs are being bred that are a liability or risk in any social setting, those breeders are never called out as going outside the standard or ruining the breed. It seems that as long as these dogs excel in a sport and are healthy, they are deemed worthy of breeding. Is it because these dogs are great sports competitors? Why should the temperament standard be any different whether show or working, american or german? And I'm not talking drives, I'm talking temperamental stability.


So this is not about you getting a working line dog someday. 
It's about working line breeders who don't breed to the standard. This has been covered in recent threads. There are breeders of all lines who breed for something they want or buyers want that is not a well rounded good temperament solid dog.
If you want a WL line dog that is solid with good nerve and a good family dog you can find one.
The fact that there are some who breed for sport or show or any specific traits is a problem but has nothing to do with you being able to get a great WL dog.
You also seem happy with your WGSL's so why not stick with them.


----------



## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> Most working line breeders are not going by AKC standards...
> 
> The United Schutzhund Clubs of America Inc. is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the "Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)" in Germany and is strongly devoted to create and promote the German Shepherd Dog in its original breeding as a working dog.
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
> Character
> 
> The German Shepherd should *appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured*, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


EXACTLY!! Yet I've viewed dogs in my research that are highly praised and have been bred time and time again that do not fit this bill in temperament. They were absolutely amazing under a firm handler on the field, but off the field have to be kept in a controlled environment in order to prevent harm...


----------



## BR870

Lakl said:


> You are misunderstanding me. And there's some information from my experience that I don't feel comfortable repeating on an open forum. This is probably going to open a can of worms, BUT...
> 
> I am saying that from what I understand, that are certain standards set for this breed in conformation and temperament. On both sides - working and show, there are, of course, breeders that go outside these standards to meet their own personal goals or what they feel the demands of the market is. But when was the last time you saw any working line breeders called out on open forums for not producing dogs that fell within the lines of these standards? This is just my personal observation, but it seems that when dogs are being bred that are a liability or risk in any social setting, those breeders are never called out as going outside the standard or ruining the breed. It seems that as long as these dogs excel in a sport and are healthy, they are deemed worthy of breeding. Is it because these dogs are great sports competitors? Why should the temperament standard be any different whether show or working, american or german? And I'm not talking drives, I'm talking temperamental stability.


And I am saying the working line dogs are for the most part the most tempermentally stable of the lines. Some might not be great for the average pet owner because they are high drive, and the average pet owner is too lazy and ill prepared to keep them stimulated. Thats the fault of the owner, not the dog.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it around here, but the dogs around here are for the most part very stable. The only one I would consider "unstable" is a Czech/Am SL cross, and alot of that could be pinned on potential handler issues.


----------



## gagsd

Lakl said:


> I know what I want, but finding a breeder whose dogs can be trusted to that extent doesn't seem as easy... I don't actually like that he will let strangers hug him. I like "aloof", but I also don't want to worry about a house guest making the wrong move and having a liability on my hands...


The dog I mentioned has been hugged and held by children that we do not know. Zero issues. He loves them. I was specifically speaking of adults.
I cannot imagine having a German Shepherd that would indiscriminately bite a child.


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## Lakl

Jack's Dad said:


> So this is not about you getting a working line dog someday.
> It's about working line breeders who don't breed to the standard. This has been covered in recent threads. There are breeders of all lines who breed for something they want or buyers want that is not a well rounded good temperament solid dog.
> If you want a WL line dog that is solid with good nerve and a good family dog you can find one.
> The fact that there are some who breed for sport or show or any specific traits is a problem but has nothing to do with you being able to get a great WL dog.
> You also seem happy with your WGSL's so why not stick with them.


Perhaps you should go back to my original post? The topic strayed off to what exactly I was looking for, but that was not my original question.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lakl said:


> So my question is this, and I am brand spanking new, so forgive me if I am incorrect, but why does it seem acceptable in the working world to produce dogs that excel in the sport, but are socially unstable? Dogs that require a firm handler and are sometimes unsuitable for family homes? I thought the GSD, whether working or show were supposed to be bred to be sound in ALL areas? I often hear complaints about SL dogs lacking the ability to be true working dogs, but shouldn't true working dogs also possess the ability to conform to a normal social setting?


As I and others said there are individual breeders who do not produce stable dogs in all lines. 
I don't think anyone is saying it is acceptable to breed socially unstable dogs.
I just don't understand where you are going with this because a whole bunch of people on this forum have WL dogs. We don't have the extreme dogs your research has suggested.
I went through my own research to buy a WL dog 5 yrs. ago and didn't find but a small minority that might have had anything like what you are describing.
Could your research be jaded because you own WGSL's.
If you stick with those dogs you won't need to worry about a few far out 
WL breeders.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think the best way, and it is hard in a lot of locations to do, but get out and meet as many dogs as you can. It helps if they are from known backgrounds and you can go back and make notes and compare what you've seen with what's been written, but even if you don't know, you can still learn a great deal with the hands on or eyes on real dogs. 

I know what I like when I see it. I like an alert dog, but not one that's acting like it is alert on meth, I like more of a secret service alert. I like a dog that will stand and tolerate petting without a problem but that doesn't want people or dogs that act like they are familiar with them when they are not. If I had kids, I would want to tone that preference of mine down because I know most kids have friends. I like a dog that is ready to work and ready to relax and not be tapping its foot while it's laying there waiting for the next thing and that is uncannily intelligent but not necessarily driven by desire for a ball, but by a bond with their person. 

When I go out in rescue, I can meet these dogs, can foster these dogs and it is really nice when you see one that is what you like. But I get to learn a lot of what is out there by being around all sorts of them and realize just how important the art and science of true breeding is.


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## Emoore

I can only echo what everybody else has said. My WL dog is strong-nerved and very stable. He's shown aggression twice in his life and both times were very appropriate. You're not going to get any one of us to say it's ok to breed unstable dogs, no matter what the bloodline. We don't know what dogs you're talking about or what breeders you're talking about. 

I have heard _lots_ of people on this forum, WL breeders included, bemoan the breeding of sport dogs that are so edgy or high-strung that they can't live in the house or be companions. It's another undesirable example of breeding for extremes.


----------



## Lakl

Jack's Dad said:


> As I and others said there are individual breeders who do not produce stable dogs in all lines.
> I don't think anyone is saying it is acceptable to breed socially unstable dogs.
> I just don't understand where you are going with this because a whole bunch of people on this forum have WL dogs. We don't have the extreme dogs your research has suggested.
> I went through my own research to buy a WL dog 5 yrs. ago and didn't find but a small minority that might have had anything like what you are describing.
> Could your research be jaded because you own WGSL's.
> If you stick with those dogs you won't need to worry about a few far out
> WL breeders.


Ok, I'm gonna need you to stop telling me to STICK WITH MY WGSL. I want a GSD and frankly, I don't care if it's working or show, if it fits within the standards of the breed, then I'm happy. My questions towards working lines are not because I was attempting to take a shot at the lines or the breeders. I am familiar with SL and breeders because I already own two, so I'm WELL AWARE of the issues with these lines, and the problem with the breeders breeding them. I live them everyday with my weak nerved female, and zero drive, bad hips male. If you saw anywhere in my posts where I said that SL's were superior dogs or that working lines had mad cow disease, you let me know, ok? If you saw anywhere I said that ALL WL were unstable, let me know. I just refuse to point out specific breeders or specific lines that I'm referring to or that I've come across in my research, and trying to keep my questions as general as possible. Thanks.


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## Jack's Dad

Working line dogs pick up on highly emotional people and react accordingly. 

Just so you know. Thanks


----------



## Lakl

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think the best way, and it is hard in a lot of locations to do, but get out and meet as many dogs as you can. It helps if they are from known backgrounds and you can go back and make notes and compare what you've seen with what's been written, but even if you don't know, you can still learn a great deal with the hands on or eyes on real dogs.
> 
> I know what I like when I see it. I like an alert dog, but not one that's acting like it is alert on meth, I like more of a secret service alert. I like a dog that will stand and tolerate petting without a problem but that doesn't want people or dogs that act like they are familiar with them when they are not. If I had kids, I would want to tone that preference of mine down because I know most kids have friends. I like a dog that is ready to work and ready to relax and not be tapping its foot while it's laying there waiting for the next thing and that is uncannily intelligent but not necessarily driven by desire for a ball, but by a bond with their person.
> 
> When I go out in rescue, I can meet these dogs, can foster these dogs and it is really nice when you see one that is what you like. But I get to learn a lot of what is out there by being around all sorts of them and realize just how important the art and science of true breeding is.


This would honestly make the process so much easier if I had the opportunity to do this. I probably wouldn't have the 2 I have now, if I'd have been able to actually get out to see different dogs and visit different breeders. I don't even have a schutzund club in my state!

My resources are basically the web, talking to breeders through phone and email, talking to people that own their dogs, and a couple people I know that are wizards at reading pedigrees. I feel like if I better understand the traits of these dogs, ask questions, and verbalize what I want, then I can get better information from the people I'm talking to...


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## Lakl

Jack's Dad said:


> Working line dogs pick up on highly emotional people and react accordingly.
> 
> Just so you know. Thanks


Lol. Touche!


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## Cassidy's Mom

Jack's Dad said:


> Working line dogs pick up on highly emotional people and react accordingly.
> 
> Just so you know. Thanks


:thinking: Not sure what your point is here, but it sounds a little snarky. The OP is trying to _learn_, she's not trying to bash any lines. Nothing wrong with that.


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## onyx'girl

> This would honestly make the process so much easier if I had the opportunity to do this. I probably wouldn't have the 2 I have now, if I'd have been able to actually get out to see different dogs and visit different breeders. I don't even have a schutzund club in my state!


The only state I know of with no clubs is Arkansas?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

IF there are any rescues - and I don't know how good they would be - you will find all kinds of GSDs there. The increased popularity of the sable means that the sable dogs are found in many shelters. Some are too much for their owners, others not enough - that seems to be typically what we find. REALLY nice working line _looking_ dogs (because we can't say for sure) coming from the south that are just super sweet, smart dogs.


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## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> The only state I know of with no clubs is Arkansas?


I'm in Mississippi and I looked on that site posted. There was one in Alabama and one in Florida. I didn't see any in MS.


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## BR870

Where in MS? Are you down near I-10 are further up north?


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## Lakl

This is what I don't like, with either lines, is that I should be able to pick up the phone, call a breeder and say "I'm looking for A, B, and C in a GSD." and whether it's showline or working, the breeder should be able to tell me if they produce pups that fit my needs. My experience so far, I get vague answers or yes, and then I do some further research and these dogs do not at all fit the bill. And then dag nabbit (excuse my language) the really good breeders out there, of course, really want to see their pups succeed out there in venues and have waiting lists a mile long, so are rightfully picky about where their pups go. I feel like I don't even have the background to be a chosen one...


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## Lakl

BR870 said:


> Where in MS? Are you down near I-10 are further up north?


Right on the coast near I-10.


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## BR870

Lakl said:


> Right on the coast near I-10.


Sending you a PM...


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## robinhuerta

Ok....I've read and lurked....
The breed standard DEFINES what this breed should be......words, descriptions such as *high drive, edgy & civil* are not definitions used to describe the temperament acceptable for this breed.
*Calm, self confident, aloof, hardness in courage & fighting instinct are definitions used.*
WE as breeders, enthusiasts and competitors USE these terms to describe certain characteristics of this breed.
NO GSD dog should be so *civil, high driven or hard* that it is above and beyond what this breed is supposed to be.....just as NO GSD dog should be *nervy, soft or have inadequate drive, that it is unable to be motivated to work.

WLs that poses traits that make them "sway" from the standard are no better than SL's that exhibit the same traits.....yet people tend to "define" the traits differently when expressing them from WL to SL.
Acceptability changes, and excuses are often made.......this is preposterous.
A sound, stable GSD WILL poses the capabilities to be both home companion and utility canine.
*Sticking with SLs???*..._what exactly should that mean?_
If a dog born, sound from good breeding, posses the honest traits and capabilities described within the breed standard....then it IS a GSD....whether it SL or WL.
Schutzhund, OB, Conformation, Herding, SAR etc....are all venues. We *choose* what venues to be competitive in, and certain breedings and dogs may "excel" in these specific venues......but the "stability in sound temperament" of these dogs should remain evident.
JMO

_Sorry for the typos...spell check not working for some reason?_


----------



## Lakl

robinhuerta said:


> Ok....I've read and lurked....
> The breed standard DEFINES what this breed should be......words, descriptions such as *high drive, edgy & civil* are not definitions used to describe the temperament acceptable for this breed.
> *Calm, self confident, aloof, hardness in courage & fighting instinct are definitions used.*
> WE as breeders, enthusiasts and competitors USE these terms to describe certain characteristics of this breed.
> NO GSD dog should be so *civil, high driven or hard* that it is above and beyond what this breed is supposed to be.....just as NO GSD dog should be *nervy, soft or have inadequate drive, that it is unable to be motivated to work.
> 
> WLs that poses traits that make them "sway" from the standard are no better than SL's that exhibit the same traits.....yet people tend to "define" the traits differently when expressing them from WL to SL.
> Acceptability changes, and excuses are often made.......this is preposterous.
> A sound, stable GSD WILL poses the capabilities to be both home companion and utility canine.
> *Sticking with SLs???*..._what exactly should that mean?_
> If a dog born, sound from good breeding, posses the honest traits and capabilities described within the breed standard....then it IS a GSD....whether it SL or WL.
> Schutzhund, OB, Conformation, Herding, SAR etc....are all venues. We *choose* what venues to be competitive in, and certain breedings and dogs may "excel" in these specific venues......but the "stability in sound temperament" of these dogs should remain evident.
> JMO
> 
> _Sorry for the typos...spell check not working for some reason?_


:thumbup::thumbup: Agreed!!


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## Jack's Dad

I talked about the Op sticking with SL dogs because they had indicated being happy with the way the dogs were around children The OP also stated they wanted the dog to do obedience/agility and I certainly don't see any reason a SL dog shouldn't be able to do those things.

There are extreme WL dogs but there are a whole lot of stable good tempered ones. Find the right breeder and you can get what you want regardless of line.

Robin, you and several working line breeders on this forum could give the Op the kind of dog they want. I was simply puzzled as to why doing research on WL dogs had produced such extreme temperamented dogs.


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## robinhuerta

I think because the OP "uncovered" certain undesirable breedings, and such breedings/dogs have been considered "acceptable" & excused.
In my "perception" of this thread...it is the OP's intention to question "why" is it considered "acceptable" with many WL breeders & enthusiasts..?

*OP.....am I wrong?*


----------



## Jack's Dad

robinhuerta said:


> I think because the OP "uncovered" certain undesirable breedings, and such breedings/dogs have been considered "acceptable" & excused.
> In my "perception" of this thread...it is the OP's intention to question "why" is it considered "acceptable" with many WL breeders & enthusiasts..?
> 
> *OP.....am I wrong?*


Well I don't consider undesireable breedings in any line acceptable and certainly don't excuse them.
Unfortunately though where there is a market, there will be breeders to fulfill it.


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## robinhuerta

Agreed....
The market has "fans" for all types of breeders.....sad but true.


----------



## Lakl

robinhuerta said:


> I think because the OP "uncovered" certain undesirable breedings, and such breedings/dogs have been considered "acceptable" & excused.
> In my "perception" of this thread...it is the OP's intention to question "why" is it considered "acceptable" with many WL breeders & enthusiasts..?
> 
> *OP.....am I wrong?*


Nail on the head...


----------



## Falkosmom

Added a workingline pup this past summer, my research turned up just the opposite. Most felt their pups would be very sociable and ideal for family life.

There were some breeders with over the top prey drive and energy levels looking to place their pups in working homes only, but they felt these dogs were very social as well.


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## carmspack

I think because the OP "uncovered" certain undesirable breedings, quote Robin

xx I don't think it was so much undesirable breedings if it is the dog which Lakl mentioned in her PM to me. In fact that dog is outstanding , with much to offer, which is why in my reply I said "Now there are a lot of breeders who buy names like a franchise and trade on it , or breeders who buy "names" and breed them and sell the offspring , first come first serve , who have no idea what they have and are even flippant when a whole community of experienced breeders , and even former owners , clearly say "this dog is ..... " fill in the blanks , with warnings. Yet everyone ewwws and gooos about the bone ... . Some dogs are made to be meaner and badder - yet they are just dogs, but the bad-boy image appeals and that creates sales. "
Not every dog is suitable for every function or for every person . There are breeders who specialize in over the top sport dogs and knowing this place the dog accordingly. At least that is responsible.

But that is not working .

I find that there are some breeders that go out of their way to exploit the image of the bad kick butt dog , but they don't know too much about the dog or work the dog (s) -- there are a lot of "merchandizers" plain and simple .

If it is the dog , Lakl , there are several progeny out in north america that are in pet homes and doing well . 

You do not have to go through all this to find a good healthy stable dog to do obedience and agility . That is not much to ask of a dog . 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## cliffson1

I don't get this at all, you donot own WL, you have made a lot of assumptions and generalizations about WL based on a couple breeders and conversations. Many people WHO do own workinglines have given you input contrary to these assumptions, and you still press on. When I don't know and people I respect do know and tell me something, I listen and learn. Many breeders out there breeding many type dogs...should be breeding to standard not to individual wishes, you as an owner create more of what your dog will be then anything else....positive or negative.


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## Lakl

cliffson1 said:


> I don't get this at all, you donot own WL, you have made a lot of assumptions and generalizations about WL based on a couple breeders and conversations. Many people WHO do own workinglines have given you input contrary to these assumptions, and you still press on. When I don't know and people I respect do know and tell me something, I listen and learn. Many breeders out there breeding many type dogs...should be breeding to standard not to individual wishes, you as an owner create more of what your dog will be then anything else....positive or negative.


You are mistaken, Cliff. I haven't made any assumptions or tried to group the entire WL or all WL breeders. I simply asked some general questions regarding what I've seen and experienced talking to a few people in my research on lines. I've said that many times. If you heard me argue here with anyone that I couldn't find a good WL dog for myself, then you have mis-read.

I see great WL dogs AND breedrs in this forum everyday in this forum. I also have a couple people whom I 100 % trust to help me make a decision on my next choice when that time comes. This is NOT, I repeat, NOT a dig on working lines.


----------



## Lakl

carmspack said:


> I think because the OP "uncovered" certain undesirable breedings, quote Robin
> 
> xx I don't think it was so much undesirable breedings if it is the dog which Lakl mentioned in her PM to me. In fact that dog is outstanding , with much to offer, which is why in my reply I said "Now there are a lot of breeders who buy names like a franchise and trade on it , or breeders who buy "names" and breed them and sell the offspring , first come first serve , who have no idea what they have and are even flippant when a whole community of experienced breeders , and even former owners , clearly say "this dog is ..... " fill in the blanks , with warnings. Yet everyone ewwws and gooos about the bone ... . Some dogs are made to be meaner and badder - yet they are just dogs, but the bad-boy image appeals and that creates sales. "
> Not every dog is suitable for every function or for every person . There are breeders who specialize in over the top sport dogs and knowing this place the dog accordingly. At least that is responsible.
> 
> But that is not working .
> 
> I find that there are some breeders that go out of their way to exploit the image of the bad kick butt dog , but they don't know too much about the dog or work the dog (s) -- there are a lot of "merchandizers" plain and simple .
> 
> If it is the dog , Lakl , there are several progeny out in north america that are in pet homes and doing well .
> 
> You do not have to go through all this to find a good healthy stable dog to do obedience and agility . That is not much to ask of a dog .
> 
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


This is what I'm questioning, Carmen. This is what I don't understand. WHY is this dog amazing? Yes, he was titled many times over in his day, and his conformation and structure evokes a little drool. BUT...his social temperament was deemed unstable by those that knew him. People I've talked to that own his progeny and grand progeny have shared less than appealing personality traits about their dogs. Now I can only the blame the ONE breeder who offered me a pup from this litter for a family household, as I'm sure no other breeder would have done, but why isn't this type dog not considered outside the standard?

The breeder hasn't yet chose which dam they are going to use, so I even went as far as having someone read the pedigrees on the 7 different gals they had, and was told NONE would be a good match to this type of dog in order to bring down that side of his temperament.


----------



## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> I don't get this at all, you donot own WL, you have made a lot of assumptions and generalizations about WL based on a couple breeders and conversations. Many people WHO do own workinglines have given you input contrary to these assumptions, and you still press on. When I don't know and people I respect do know and tell me something, I listen and learn.


Sheesh, folks, the OP asked a QUESTION, and she gets a bunch of posts slamming her? That's not fair. She made NO assumptions. She is trying to learn. There is no need to jump all over her case or make accusations. 

Of course there are some WL dogs (and SL dogs) that do not match the standard in terms of social behavior. Is this acceptable? Not in my opinion. I don't think roach backs or sickle hocks are acceptable either, and yet they continue to win and be bred. But in the sport world as well as the show world, people get tunnel vision when they want to win, and tend to ignore or gloss over faults. In my opinion, this is specialized "sport" breeding, not the total GSD.

I don't know why we are being hush-hush about the particular dog in question, I'd like to know who we are talking about and his pedigree.


----------



## gagsd

Lakl said:


> ....so I even went as far as having someone read the pedigrees on the 7 different gals they had, and was told NONE would be a good match to this type of dog in order to bring down that side of his temperament.


Of course, I am dying to know who the dog is
However, WHO is telling you the dog and breedings are not suitable?


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## GSDElsa

Lakl said:


> I have never owned a working line GSD...
> However, something the I've noted in my research is that there seem to be a *good deal of* working line breeders out there whose dogs are geared towards specific sports settings and only suitable for strict sport homes... but *why does it seem acceptable* in the working world to produce dogs that excel in the sport,* but are socially unstable*? .. but shouldn't true working dogs also possess the ability to conform to a normal social setting?


There were a great deal of assumptions made.

I do not think there are a "good deal of" WL breeders who produce "socially unstable" dogs, nor do many people out there find it "acceptable."

Do those breeders exist? Yes. "good deal of" and "acceptable" to the majority of GSD handlers, trainers, and enthusiasts? Hardly.

There are bad breeders. There are breeders who look for specific things and might not breed what you want. There might be breeders who can take a dog like this and pair it well. But there are people doing it just because a dog is popular or bad-arse or whatever.

People are harping on her because she is making assumptions that the majority of WL breeders are not considering social stability in the equation of breeding when it's simply not accurate.


----------



## GSDElsa

Lakl said:


> but why isn't this type dog not considered outside the standard?


And out of all these pages, who on here has said that a GSD should be like this dog?


----------



## Lakl

GSDElsa said:


> And out of all these pages, who on here has said that a GSD should be like this dog?


That's not what I said! I said many knowledgeable GSD people have deemed this dog an outstanding example of his lines. I see it in his competition, structure, etc, but not in his temperament as far as the standard definition posted here in this thread. So I'm just wondering why this was overlooked in general in the GSD world?

There are A LOT of people tied to this dog, and that is the reason I'd rather not post him in is thread, but if you'd like to know, you can send me a pm.

This is not to try and start an argument. I'm just trying to understand...


----------



## Freestep

GSDElsa said:


> People are harping on her because she is making assumptions that the majority of WL breeders are not considering social stability in the equation of breeding when it's simply not accurate.


She never used the word "majority". When she said a "good deal of", that could mean anything. if she talked to 5 breeders and 4 of them said their dogs were not suitable for pet homes, that would seem like a "good deal".

Her question was, why do people find it acceptable to breed a dog that is not socially stable? Obviously, some people do, because they praise such a dog and breed to him. 

OP is looking for other opinions and she is getting answers here--the people who find it acceptable are NOT in the majority. She might have been "assuming" had she not asked for more answers and opinions.


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## carmspack

and there are breeders who want to make a purse out of a sows ear. They buy a dog because of the name -- and instead of respecting and understanding the value and potential of the pedigree they want to virtually reinvent what they have.
Why in the world would a kennel , which is supposed to have a far reaching game plan have a male which is of no use to their 7 females -- and why would they have him and want to breed away from what he is.

PM me and tell me if I am thinking of the same dog.


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## holland

If you want to know the answer to that why not contact the breeder and while I don't really need to know the answer to that this just seems a bit childish to me...the whole PM me and let me know if I am right


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## Lakl

holland said:


> If you want to know the answer to that why not contact the breeder and while I don't really need to know the answer to that this just seems a bit childish to me...the whole PM me and let me know if I am right


Why is that childish? There are people in these forums that own this dogs progeny. I am not trying to challenge anyone's choices or call their dogs out.


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## GSDElsa

And what do the people on this forum say about their dogs' temperments?


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## Lakl

Constant dominance challenge, no reaching over, no eye contact from strangers, cannot be approached by anyone outside the owner, nightmare vet trips or no vetting at all, grabbing something they want can be dangerous, can only be worked with by schutzund trainers, cannot be around other dogs, and the list goes on...

This is 4 different progeny, 2 different generations...


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## cliffson1

" but why does it seem acceptable in the working world to produce dogs that excel in the sport, but are socially unstable? Dogs that require a firm handler and are sometimes unsuitable for family homes? "
@ Freestep.....what do you catergorize the above if not assumptions???????Its certainly not fact, so what is it....sheesh yourself....nobody is slamming anyone, this is part of the initial post and a lot of people who owned WL tried to correct this statement. If you start out with a faulty premise like this how can the discussion progress until this is corrected.....and if it is corrected, then I don't understand the further pursuit for 10 pages. There are breeders of all types that produce dogs that are socially unstable....right????


----------



## carmspack

oh holland "

If you want to know the answer to that why not contact the breeder and while I don't really need to know the answer to that this just seems a bit childish to me...the whole PM me and let me know if I am right "
you think so ? I don't know the breeder . I am glad I checked because it is NOT the male I had in mind , based on a previous private conversation , and inference to a male discussed in another thread . So there.
So this is indeed a different male , who is not a social dog , reflecting selective breeding for border patrol - Czech . 
So you don't go around trying to create warm and fuzzy socially warm compliant pet pups from him. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Lakl

cliffson1 said:


> " but why does it seem acceptable in the working world to produce dogs that excel in the sport, but are socially unstable? Dogs that require a firm handler and are sometimes unsuitable for family homes? "
> @ Freestep.....what do you catergorize the above if not assumptions???????Its certainly not fact, so what is it....sheesh yourself....nobody is slamming anyone, this is part of the initial post and a lot of people who owned WL tried to correct this statement. If you start out with a faulty premise like this how can the discussion progress until this is corrected.....and if it is corrected, then I don't understand the further pursuit for 10 pages. There are breeders of all types that produce dogs that are socially unstable....right????


Cliff, please, if you feel I was making a broad, general assumption, then I apologize. I think a few people I have spoken to in pm understand my line of questioning. I probably should of posted the question as "why do these select few people consider it ok to breed this type of temperament?" 

Carm has explained that these lines were bred to be for a specific purpose, but of course, the lines, I think anyways, have fallen into the wrong hands and are now being sold to unsuspecting, unprepared matches because of the competitive history in them and the name behind the brand. My attempt at making this a general question has skewed the reasoning behind it.


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## Samba

I think that if you looked at other lines, you would also find some breeders producing dogs with questionable And even problematic temperaments. Then , one could ask why is it acceptable for these breeders to do this also.


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## holland

carmspack said:


> oh holland "
> 
> If you want to know the answer to that why not contact the breeder and while I don't really need to know the answer to that this just seems a bit childish to me...the whole PM me and let me know if I am right "
> you think so ? I don't know the breeder . I am glad I checked because it is NOT the male I had in mind , based on a previous private conversation , and inference to a male discussed in another thread . So there.
> So this is indeed a different male , who is not a social dog , reflecting selective breeding for border patrol - Czech .
> So you don't go around trying to create warm and fuzzy socially warm compliant pet pups from him.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
Yes I think so And there are dogs from czech lines who are socially approachable. It really doesn't impress me at all that there is a dog out there that isn't social- they should at least be approachable--I used to get loaned Czech dogs to take to training and I had a lot of fun with them and they all were tolerant of people.


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## Chris Wild

Well, knowing now who the dog is (not a current stud, rather one who's been gone a while but still has frozen semen occasionally used) this was a type of dog for a different time and place and one who reflected the needs of the people at that time. Needs for which this sort of temperament was perfectly acceptable and in many cases desireable. Breed standard had little to do with it frankly. The need for a somewhat specialized dog for actual, true work, trumped that. They never were intended to be pets, or a balanced dog capable of work and pet. That never crossed anyone's mind. An entirely different dog was needed, and thus bred for. It is a type not frequently needed or wanted today. And it is certainly not a type that is intentionally being bred for by all but a few specializing in a similar type of dog for a similar type of work, and those few would be marketing their dogs for a similar function, not family pets.

But of course, "Czech border patrol", and big bone/big head/black sable, are the current rage that everyone and his brother seems to want. A whole lot of people enamored of those dogs, the look and mystique surrounding them, and don't look beyond that to find out if the dog is even remotely a good fit for their lifestyle. And thus, a whole lot of ignorant and/or greedy, or both, breeders are slapping them together to pump out pups and market them toward the uninformed people who haven't looked beyond the physical appearance or odd fascination with dogs harkening back to that area of the world and part of history to get any sort of idea what they are getting into, and will happily slap down often ridiculous amounts of cash in order to get what they percieve to be rare, unique, special "brand" of dog. The buyers don't know, and the breeders don't care. Those are the sorts that the OP is running into. They are certainly not representative of working lines, or even Czech/Slovak lines as a whole. It's just fad breeding, and frankly if she digs a bit deeper she'll find that those breeders she's apparently been looking into also aren't thought of too highly or taken seriously by the working community as a whole, (the one was in the past, but not any longer) or in a lot of cases even involved in it beyond mass producing puppies.


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## Lakl

Chris Wild said:


> Well, knowing now who the dog is (not a current stud, rather one who's been gone a while but still has frozen semen occasionally used) this was a type of dog for a different time and place and one who reflected the needs of the people at that time. Needs for which this sort of temperament was perfectly acceptable and in many cases desireable. Breed standard had little to do with it frankly. The need for a somewhat specialized dog for actual, true work, trumped that. They never were intended to be pets, or a balanced dog capable of work and pet. That never crossed anyone's mind. An entirely different dog was needed, and thus bred for. It is a type not frequently needed or wanted today. And it is certainly not a type that is intentionally being bred for by all but a few specializing in a similar type of dog for a similar type of work, and those few would be marketing their dogs for a similar function, not family pets.
> 
> But of course, "Czech border patrol", and big bone/big head/black sable, are the current rage that everyone and his brother seems to want. A whole lot of people enamored of those dogs, the look and mystique surrounding them, and don't look beyond that to find out if the dog is even remotely a good fit for their lifestyle. And thus, a whole lot of ignorant and/or greedy, or both, breeders are slapping them together to pump out pups and market them toward the uninformed people who haven't looked beyond the physical appearance or odd fascination with dogs harkening back to that area of the world and part of history to get any sort of idea what they are getting into, and will happily slap down often ridiculous amounts of cash in order to get what they percieve to be rare, unique, special "brand" of dog. The buyers don't know, and the breeders don't care. Those are the sorts that the OP is running into. They are certainly not representative of working lines, or even Czech/Slovak lines as a whole. It's just fad breeding, and frankly if she digs a bit deeper she'll find that those breeders she's apparently been looking into also aren't thought of too highly or taken seriously by the working community as a whole, (the one was in the past, but not any longer) or in a lot of cases even involved in it beyond mass producing puppies.


:thumbup::thumbup: Thank you, Chris, this answers my question and resolves my misunderstanding.


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> " but why does it seem acceptable in the working world to produce dogs that excel in the sport, but are socially unstable? Dogs that require a firm handler and are sometimes unsuitable for family homes? "
> @ Freestep.....what do you catergorize the above if not assumptions???????


The words highlighted in red are the words that tell me she isn't making assumptions, she's gotten some confusing information and wants to gain more understanding. If she wanted to assume anything, she would just assume it, and not bother to ask for further info. The dog in question does seem highly regarded and is in many working pedigrees, so to hear from some people that his temperament (and that of some of his progeny) are socially unstable is alarming and somewhat confusing. When the standard calls for a GSD to be aloof, but approachable, and the dog clearly is not--why is this dog held in such high regard? Is this the norm? It seems logical to ask this forum about this--as I understand it, she's already spoken directly with the owners about the dogs. 

OP wasn't slamming WL breeders, she's trying to understand what to expect with regard to working lines and the people who breed them. It's a fair question, and I'm glad she came here to ask, in spite of some taking offense to the question. We don't want people running around thinking that WL breeders don't care about temperament.



> and if it is corrected, then I don't understand the further pursuit for 10 pages.


Further learning? Delving deeper into the discussion? Is that not what these forums are for? I for one enjoy these discussions and learn from them. I don't think it's necessary to jump all over someone for asking a question. It seems some folks have more defense drive than their dogs!


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## Jack's Dad

Freestep said:


> It seems some folks have more defense drive than their dogs!


Yep. They sure do.


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## crackem

who cares where the dog comes from, if those breeders don't have dogs you want, don't go to them to get a dog. Find one that does. Plenty of working line dogs have lived with me, and none of them were dangerous for kids, couldn't be looked at by strangers, couldn't go walk down the street, heel thru a home depot. Sit and watch a parade, go to the farmer's market, hang out a the beach, go camping and the list could be much longer if I'd care to sit and type that much.

i've never muzzled a dog at the vet, never had to have a vet come to the house, because a dog was too dangerous to leave the home. No aggression towards kids, and imo, and dog that views a small child as any type of threat and has any aggressive displays towards a small child is a dog that needs to be taken from the gene pool.

But then I find breeders that are producing dogs I want and get them from there. I don't go looking for socially inept dogs with aggression problems because a kid wants to walk by it during feeding and buy it hoping it will be a cute cuddly house dog that will roll around with 5 kids all day long.


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## Lakl

crackem said:


> who cares where the dog comes from, if those breeders don't have dogs you want, don't go to them to get a dog. Find one that does. Plenty of working line dogs have lived with me, and none of them were dangerous for kids, couldn't be looked at by strangers, couldn't go walk down the street, heel thru a home depot. Sit and watch a parade, go to the farmer's market, hang out a the beach, go camping and the list could be much longer if I'd care to sit and type that much.
> 
> i've never muzzled a dog at the vet, never had to have a vet come to the house, because a dog was too dangerous to leave the home. No aggression towards kids, and imo, and dog that views a small child as any type of threat and has any aggressive displays towards a small child is a dog that needs to be taken from the gene pool.
> 
> But then I find breeders that are producing dogs I want and get them from there. I don't go looking for socially inept dogs with aggression problems because a kid wants to walk by it during feeding and buy it hoping it will be a cute cuddly house dog that will roll around with 5 kids all day long.


Ok, apparently, you missed the whole point to this thread and the questions asked...


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## Freestep

Chris Wild said:


> this was a type of dog for a different time and place and one who reflected the needs of the people at that time. Needs for which this sort of temperament was perfectly acceptable and in many cases desireable. Breed standard had little to do with it frankly. The need for a somewhat specialized dog for actual, true work, trumped that. They never were intended to be pets, or a balanced dog capable of work and pet. That never crossed anyone's mind. An entirely different dog was needed, and thus bred for. It is a type not frequently needed or wanted today.


Thank you, this is very interesting and informative, and totally makes sense. Now if OP hadn't asked the question, we never would have seen this post. This is what makes these forums great--all kinds of good info can be shared and much can be learned.

Personally, I think the dog is drop-dead gorgeous and it's too bad he wasn't more balanced in temperament. But who knows what would have happened if he was socialized and trained differently?

For those of you in the know, the dog's sire is another I've drooled over in terms of conformation--to me, he looks like the ideal GSD in physical appearance. Was his temperament also typical of the border patrol dogs, civil and unapproachable?


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## Chris Wild

Freestep said:


> The dog in question does seem highly regarded and is in many working pedigrees, so to hear from some people that his temperament (and that of some of his progeny) are socially unstable is alarming and somewhat confusing.


People also have to realize that with regard to breeding traits that might be undesireable in some regards aren't in others. For example. If one had a bitch that was too high threshold or too social, a breeder might select such a stud that would lower threshold and bring more suspicion in order to achieve something in the middle with the pups. Or if the bitch has low drive, select a dog with drive off the charts, to get results in the middle. Softer bitch, ridiculously hard stud. Etc.... Granted, this is an oversimplification and it doesn't exactly work this easily or neatly in reality, but it illustrates the point.

NO dog is perfect. They all have faults. When someone says their dog is within standard, that does not mean that it epitomizes the standard in every single way with no deviations whatsoever, but rather where the picture of the total dog falls. And even then, there is a spectrum of what is deemed acceptable within certain aspects of the standard. What is too aloof to one person might be not enough to another. Breeding is about balance, and that means looking at the total dog and what they can contribute to the offspring. Breeding is far more than taking one dog that "fits the standard" and breeding it to the same, and getting the same. It requires looking at individual traits. If some of what some percieve as negatives brought by an individual dog are traits that are needed in a line, those negatives can in fact be positive. This can certainly be said with a dog bringing the sort of genetics this one does, but it all comes down to what he is bred to. Breed too much of those same traits.. and this goes for all traits really.. and things get out of whack. Just as too much breeding civil, suspicious, defensive, low threshold dog to the same will produce dogs too extreme in those areas, breeding too much social, happy go lucky, high threshold to the same creates dogs that don't fit the GSD standard any better than the "unstable" ones.

Just because what a male was like himself is a better fit to a bygone era than today doesn't mean that some of those traits can't be valuable to use in breeding today. There are a whole lot of dogs in the history of this breed that are well regarded, and looked for, that exhibited some traits that aren't appreciated or even correct, or are correct in the right amount but these dogs had way too much. Yet when bred with knowledge and purpose things worked out very well and the good stuff was retained and the bad stuff compensated for, and the "too much" was brought down to a "just right" level. And that aspect of breeding transcends any geographical location and period in history.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Freestep said:


> Sheesh, folks, the OP asked a QUESTION, and she gets a bunch of posts slamming her? That's not fair. She made NO assumptions. She is trying to learn. There is no need to jump all over her case or make accusations.





Freestep said:


> She never used the word "majority". When she said a "good deal of", that could mean anything. if she talked to 5 breeders and 4 of them said their dogs were not suitable for pet homes, that would seem like a "good deal".
> 
> Her question was, why do people find it acceptable to breed a dog that is not socially stable? Obviously, some people do, because they praise such a dog and breed to him.
> 
> OP is looking for other opinions and she is getting answers here--the people who find it acceptable are NOT in the majority. She might have been "assuming" had she not asked for more answers and opinions.


See, that's what I got out of her question too, I'm not sure why we understood what she was getting at and so many other people seem to have misunderstood. :thinking: There are a lot of assumptions being made on the other side too, many people seem to be assuming she has some sort of agenda, but she's merely questioning some things she's heard that don't make sense to her. Because it's against board rules to make negative comments about breeders here, and repeating private conversations isn't allowed either, she's not able to name names and be more specific, she has no choice but to ask in generalities. 

I only had experience with ASL and WGSL dogs before I got Halo, and I asked a lot of questions too, before taking the plunge with a workling line dog. I'm glad I wasn't attacked for that and accused of making negative assumptions like the OP has been. 

Kudos to those that have taken the time to actually ANSWER her questions, I agree with Freestep that this is a great learning topic for a lot of people.


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## Courtney

I have enjoyed reading this thread...alot of good info. Alot of times things get "lost in translation" over the internet.


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## nitemares

same here very interesting thread and a whole lot of very useful information.


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## Lakl

Whether in a good or bad way, I am glad to have been able to pull so many knowledgeable people into this thread. With info and advice from this many, I'm thinking the 3rd time will be the charm for my next dream pup!

Oh, and because of this thread, a member has invited me to visit their schutzund club after the holidays so I can see and meet some dogs in person and watch the training. A club I never even knew was so close! So excited!!


----------



## lhczth

Freestep said:


> Personally, I think the dog is drop-dead gorgeous and it's too bad he wasn't more balanced in temperament. But who knows what would have happened if he was socialized and trained differently?


This dog was bred to be this way. Not trained. 



> For those of you in the know, the dog's sire is another I've drooled over in terms of conformation--to me, he looks like the ideal GSD in physical appearance. Was his temperament also typical of the border patrol dogs, civil and unapproachable?


I used to train with a son of Gent. He was a very stable dog. Strong and civil in the work, but very stable. I also boarded him a few times and he was easy for me to handle. He was social in a social setting, excellent with the handler's children and their friends. He was a very balanced dog and the breeding that produced him was designed that way.


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## Jack's Dad

Cassidy's Mom said:


> See, that's what I got out of her question too, I'm not sure why we understood what she was getting at and so many other people seem to have misunderstood. :thinking:


Maybe two or three great minds think alike.

I'm not sure where that leaves a whole bunch of people who (just didn't get it) like me and many others.


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## cliffson1

If the dog is **name removed by OP request**, I don't have to guess about what he produced or what he was. There was nothing wrong with his temperament in my opinion. I have talked to people who knew this dog when he was less than two years and he didn't have unapproachable temperament. He was civil, and I have seen many progeny by him and some were civil and some weren't. I think as his life evolved here in america he became much less tolerant of people because of isolation. He did not have bad GS temperament, but actually brought a much needed strength to the breed when bred witht he right females.....but then all dogs SHOULD be bred with right females to acheive balance in the breed. He has also produced some nice family dogs...I know this for a fact. When you know something for sure and see comments that are not based in good subject knowledge; it is hard to not be "defensive".....but I guess you could let some continue on, promulgating the ignorance. I'll work harder at ThaT:hug:.


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## cliffson1

And if the dog WAS ** name removed by request**, what have people learned about this dog and his breeder from this thread....I'm just curious, not being defensive. Also, what have people learned about his progeny from this thread....I have met at least 10 of his progeny over the years...I would like to compare notes. **names removed by Admin**


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## carmspack

I actually had experience with this stud. One of my females with a very high ratio of successful PD k9 service dog progeny was selected to be bred to this working male , a year or so prior to his retirement. They wanted to replace him with one of his kids. Breeding took place. They got their two and were/are thrilled with them. I got two , male and female for my part , and the rest went in to work. Eventually the two I had also went into service . I did raise them to almost one year so I know what they are like. Good honest dogs, self confident , sturdy in body strong in character , tons of hunt search and natural tracking. There was nothing there that prevented them from living the life of a companion , provided there was more to life then leaving an impression when you got off the sofa. 

Approachable is not to rush the dog and hug him. Mutual respect . Safe . Neutral . Suspicion , yes . 

**comment removed by Admin.**

It is important for her and others to learn about these things and this is a great forum to do just that.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

Carmen, your description fits very closely to the majority of progeny I have seen from ** name removed by request**, again with different females he produced stronger traits in various areas. But basically.....pretty much right on!


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> He did not have bad GS temperament, but actually brought a much needed strength to the breed when bred witht he right females.....but then all dogs SHOULD be bred with right females to acheive balance in the breed. He has also produced some nice family dogs...I know this for a fact. When you know something for sure and see comments that are not based in good subject knowledge; it is hard to not be "defensive".


From my perspective, all that is needed is for people who have knowledge or personal experience, rather than feel defensive, to pipe up and share! Maybe your experience is different from what the OP had heard before, and that is a good thing. Education. So the truth is that some of the dog's progency were civil and some were not. 

...and to the question, why would one breed to such a dog? 



cliffson1 said:


> what have people learned about this dog and his breeder from this thread....I'm just curious, not being defensive. Also, what have people learned about his progeny from this thread....


What I have learned is that, at the time, a certain type of temperament was needed for border patrol and it was NOT a "pet" type temperament. These dogs were not bred to be pets, they were bred for a specific purpose, and maybe it didn't quite fit the GSD standard in terms of temperament, but it was what was needed at the time. So this explains why they would praise and breed a dog that didn't quite fit the standard in one way.

And he may well have things to offer, as others mentioned, perhaps to balance a female that is overly social and lacks suspicion? And of course his conformation and appearance is drop-dead gorgeous; he looks like a sturdy, healthy animal capable of hard work. A "real" dog.

I suppose the downside is that people who are catering to the current Czech black sable craze may linebreed on the dog without realizing what they are doing, and then sell the puppies to pet homes. That could get very ugly.


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## Lakl

I am out Xmas shopping right now, and cannot respond the way I would like to from my iPhone, but I do not at all appreciate specific information being posted that I repeatedly stated I did not want to reveal out of respect for parties involved. This thread was intended to address my understanding in the lines and breeding practices of working dogs.

And at no certain point did I feel I "NEEDED" one of these dogs. I have an 11 month old pup with surgery coming up in a month and his well being is more important than my desires. I was simply researching a line that intrigued me...


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## lhczth

Please, let's leave the dog in question out of the thread to respect the OP since this information was shared in PM's. We can talk about these types of dogs in general without discussing the specific dog.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa

*****


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## cliffson1

@ Freestep....defensive is usually based out of insecurity, I highly doubt that I am insecure about this breed...lol Sometimes I get annoyed at misinformation that is floated by rumour or without merit.....but I'm trying hard to refrain. I will try harder to keep my mouth shut and just Amen the stuff that is written and everyone can feel warm and fuzzy.
@ Lisa...sorry for introducing the dog into the thread, I think the OP would have been able to get first hand information from the beginning if the dog was known, but that is obviously not my call to make. My mistake!!


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## Cassidy's Mom

cliffson1 said:


> I will try harder to keep my mouth shut and just Amen the stuff that is written and everyone can feel warm and fuzzy.


Is that really what you think this thread is about, what the OP is looking for?


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## crackem

Lakl said:


> Ok, apparently, you missed the whole point to this thread and the questions asked...


oh, maybe I did. I thought when you asked why it was acceptable for WL dogs to be socially inept and unstable, you may have had a misunderstanding about them. I've never owned anything but WL dogs and gave a brief version of my experience. I also gave you the best advice you'll ever get when it comes to buying a new dog.


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## Lakl

Ok, I'm back and have had a chance to read through some responses, and frankly, I find them hilarious. Cliff, I love the way you made it sound like I just got my information from google, or some magazine, or pulled it out of my butt. Well I didn't. I spoke to the breeder and the owners of his progeny and grand progeny. I spoke to someone that met the dog in person, and though they also spoke highly of him, they stated that they could only view him from behind a kennel where he was safe. I don't doubt for one minute either of your testaments, but I also don't doubt the people I spoke to that are raising his progeny and grand progeny TODAY.

I may be ignorant about a lot of things about this breed, which is why I ask questions, but I'm not stupid. I give you both all the credit in the world for being as knowledgeable about the breed as you are, but that doesn't mean you're always right. I came to both of you before I purchased my last pup and got completely conflicting feedback. I went with YOUR feedback, Cliff...shoulda listened to Carmen... 

I really don't get why you're taking this so personal. This dog probably has thrown some good pups, but for all the bad, unmanageable pups he's thrown, is it really worth it?? The pain and heartache someone has to go through or dogs that have to be passed around several times or even put down because they cannot be managed and are a liability to those around them? 

Everyone says this breed is a crap shoot and I agree. But are some of these dogs really worth rolling the dice on?? Maybe they've become such a crap shoot because people continue to breed dogs like this despite the risks. But hey, what do I know. I'm just a stupid, pet owner that can't even read a pedigree, right?


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## Lakl

On another note, let me say that I appreciate those of you that have understood my line of questioning and provided me with some great information to build upon. This thread has been of great benefit to me, and im sure a few others, in learning about this breed and the lines and also helped me to find a club and breeders close to me that I can visit and absorb even more information.

I had hoped that Chris' post cleared up any confusion about what I was asking and that the conversation could continue on such a balanced level, but that doesn't seem to be the case as some want to continue to take offense at my line of questioning. So for the umpteenth time, I apologize if that's the way it was taken...


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## carmspack

working line is a complex subject , more so than sport or show which are clearly defined in expectation. Schutzhund , outside of the levels - club to national podium , is consistent in requiring tracking performed in a certain way, obedience , same , protection , here is a variation in application , but everyone knows what to do and what to expect .
Work - could be anything from farm dog herding , to specialized detection , SAR , police, military, prisons installations, border - customs dogs (border probably being a growth area) , and personal protection.

There is a skill in understanding a pedigree . There is a skill in understanding the needs of a job, selecting the dog for that job , and providing the environment and experience to get the best from the dog. 
The GSD should be able to forcefully use its power to control a situation , when warranted. Magic words. There should be no unsolicited aggression. No sharp out of fear . No hesitation or early break away avoidance when needed -- committment once engaged. 

I don't know , in this discussion, whether the dogs which had problems were a result of their genetics or their management and environment. ? 
However , does Caesar Milan, not make a show and a living dealing with dogs that pretty well have the same problem as the dogs discussed. ? 

here is a dog that was brought to my attention by her new owner --- 
*Yeulett's Elza 2nd Breeding Female For Sale ****SOLD*****

*Alsa is a high drive dog with enough energy for three dogs! She is very loving and friendly and likes to play ball and hit the bite sleeve. Her temperament with people is to die for. A confident and Happy go lucky dog with TONS of personality. This girl has a big head and great heavy bone, she is large for a female and has great character. Her gait is beautiful and she has the deepest of red markings. Pictures do not do this girl justice. Hips and elbows cleared for genetic defect*









this is what I strive for . 
here is the pedigree Yeulett's Elza 2nd - German Shepherd Dog
my connection comes in through the sires maternal line -- curiously the structure is very consistent with what this mother line produces 



here is where I have taken this forward Carmspack Sumo - German Shepherd Dog

the Sumo dog I have mentioned many a time under genetic obedience .

does that give a clearer explanation of working line drives?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs​


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## cliffson1

Lakl said," This dog probably has thrown some good pups, but for all the bad, unmanageable pups he's thrown, is it really worth it?? The pain and heartache someone has to go through or dogs that have to be passed around several times or even put down because they cannot be managed and are a liability to those around them."
Cliff says, Like I said I have seen many pups to adults from this dog and have not seen a dog or pup that needed to be put down. My experience in this breed is a very high % of the time a pup is unmanageable in this breed, (especially with aggression), it was partially if not completely the result of way the pup was being raised. (I go into homes and do problem solving professionally, and often aggression, as the issue, and IF the owner will follow through, and if its not too late we can usually fix it for them).
I think I posted that I have seen different things from different females when bred to a stud....I think this is because the stud is not solely responsible for the temperament of the pups. I think that I said that this stud needed to be bred with the right females, so what irks me is people wanting to write this stud off because of progeny of the pup,(that is implied that he must be totally responsible for), he could not be petted at his home,(which is probably more environmental than genetic ), and pups that didn't turn out good that may or maynot have gone into pet homes instead of working homes. To me these are not reasons to wash out a dog from the genepool.
And yes I DONT know it all, but when people like Carmen also feel dogs like this have value in the breed, then I feel pretty comfortable.
As to what advice you got from me in a pedigree, I don't know who you got a dog from, what the issues are, nor have I ever said that my analysis was perfect because there is no perfection in predicting dogs. (For one reason because you have no control over how the dog is raised. I have dealt with STRONG dogs from pups for upteen years, have never had aggression issues or unmanageable issues, yes I have more knowledge than average person, but if dog was productive with me all these times was the issue the dog?????) 
In closing, I thought you were referring to WL in general as did some others on the board, never said or implied that you were stupid or dumb,(I don't look at people like that), but felt that some of the questions raised about WL was not based in what I've seen in majority of times) I apologize for that, none of this is personal to me ...for what reason???. And though I don't know about your dog and the issues, I am sorry if I led you to think or do something that has not proved fruitful....and on that note I will kindly ask that no one else pm me about a pedigree as I certainly don't want to cause people anguish.


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## Lakl

Hmmm...this just makes me wonder how "isolated" an actively competing "stable" dog would have to be before it gets to a point where it can't be vetted, approached, or has to be secured from doing harm to others? 

And 3 of the 4 progeny belong to a working home with a Czech breeder and displaying the same behavior...But you're right, it probably is the dams and their environment that caused this...


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## cliffson1

I try to make the point that the "combination" of dam and sire is more often to blame (genetically), than just the sire alone and i get hmmmmmm!
If all the dogs that this dog produced were over the top I would agree with you....but how do we account for the many many dogs he has sired that are not promblematic. I have seen four pups out of the ******* litter alone, they were strong pups but they were good working dogs....that's why i wanted one from this breeding. what about the dogs through Carmen's female....guess the unstable sperm wasn't working that day. 
My only point is that it takes good match ups to produce good dogs, maybe the right females weren't brought to him sometimes, but to erase him from the genepool.....though I DONT know it all, my opinion is more has to be looked at than a few examples.


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## GSDElsa

Lakl said:


> I went with YOUR feedback, Cliff...shoulda listened to Carmen...


:shocked:

And comments like that are COMPLETELY unnecessary considering

A. How much time has been given FOR FREE to people on this board regarding pedigrees and is ALWAYS opening themselves up to junk like this because of their FREE advise and opinion.

and 

B. Cliff never says he's always right. In fact, he's usually one of the first to say you can stack the deck in your favor with good genetics, but puppies are ALWAYS a poop shoot.

No reason to ruin years of lots of thankless hours put in helping people for the rest of us.

Stepping off my high horse...
Signed,
Someone who took Cliff's advise and opinion and ended up with a stellar dog.


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## BR870

GSDElsa said:


> :shocked:
> 
> And comments like that are COMPLETELY unnecessary considering
> 
> A. How much time has been given FOR FREE to people on this board regarding pedigrees and is ALWAYS opening themselves up to junk like this because of their FREE advise and opinion.
> 
> and
> 
> B. Cliff never says he's always right. In fact, he's usually one of the first to say you can stack the deck in your favor with good genetics, but puppies are ALWAYS a poop shoot.
> 
> No reason to ruin years of lots of thankless hours put in helping people for the rest of us.
> 
> Stepping off my high horse...
> Signed,
> Someone who took Cliff's advise and opinion and ended up with a stellar dog.


Agreed. I have also taken Cliff's advice (he pointed me to the Fanta pup), and although very young, I am quite happy both with the pup and the breeder.

I also appreciate the knowledge that Cliff brings to this board, and I would much rather he continues honest truth even when unpleasant.


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## LaRen616

Another +1 for Cliff. :thumbup:

He has always taken the time to answer my questions and give me good advice.


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## Lakl

I have already spoken to Cliff in PM, and you all are correct.




Lakl said:


> I apologize. I was a bit heated last night over some assumptions being made, and should not have called you out like that, but I will answer all of your questions. Your input is invaluable and something that I still look forward to, and others on the forum should not be robbed of that. I am, however, on my way out the door for work, but will respond when I get settled in the office...


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## Lakl

I have already to Cliff spoken in PM, and agree with you ladies. It was out of line and I have never blamed Cliff for the decision I made on my pup.




Lakl said:


> I apologize. I was a bit heated last night over some assumptions being made, and should not have called you out like that, but I will answer all of your questions. Your input is invaluable and something that I still look forward to, and others on the forum should not be robbed of that. I am, however, on my way out the door for work, but will respond when I get settled in the office...


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## Emoore

Lakl, for comparison also there's a situation with a very well-known and highly-regarded DDR male who is seen a lot in DDR pedigrees. When crossed with a particular female he ended up producing very hard, aggressive dogs who were often even handler aggressive. The phrase I heard used was "those dogs will come up the leash on you." When crossed with other females that wasn't a concern and he produced some wonderful progeny; the DDR gene pool would be much smaller without this dog. The female in question also produced nice offspring when crossed with other males. 

Time may reveal the same thing about the dog you're talking about-- when crossed with certain genetics in a female you get one thing, but something completely different when crossed with different females.


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> Sometimes I get annoyed at misinformation that is floated by rumour or without merit.....but I'm trying hard to refrain. I will try harder to keep my mouth shut and just Amen the stuff that is written and everyone can feel warm and fuzzy.


I hope you're being sarcastic, because I can't believe that you're that obtuse.

I've said this three or four times now: the OP was looking specifically for more information, not an "Amen". When misinformation is floated, it craves correction. If you have knowledge, share it if you will, as it can only benefit everyone. And if you don't want to share, then don't--but I have to say, the one thing that drives me crazy is when people post little whistling icons as if to say "Ha ha, I know something you don't!" or write passive-aggressive silliness like the above. If you want to share your knowledge and correct misinformation, we surely appreciate it, as the only reason we're here is to learn! Thank you for your informative posts.


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## cliffson1

@ Freestep.....Wonderful!


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## cliffson1

Hey Folks, its time to move on...whether I am Obtuse, horizontal or perpendicular, shouldn't make a difference to anyone. Continue the thread providing info for the OP.
Thanks


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## Debbieg

cliffson1 said:


> ."
> Cliff says, Like I said I have seen many pups to adults from this dog and have not seen a dog or pup that needed to be put down. My experience in this breed is a very high % of the time a pup is unmanageable in this breed, (especially with aggression), it was partially if not completely the result of way the pup was being raised. .



Cliff how would you recommend raising pups from this dog?


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## carmspack

every police service dog that I have had out there has gone home and lived with the handler and retired to live with the handler and his family. 

all the dogs we have been talking about are specialized for a purpose that was needed "back then" -- . Once again , in the von Stephanitz book he writes about droves of specially selected dogs going into what we know as the eastern bloc . This was the foundation and gene pool for the Czech dogs. 

As a group they do not represent all working dogs , which come from Germany, Belgium, and American (north) interpretations , according to the society and its needs . 
So lets look at some options .Lets find what it is supposed to be like . What does a good working dog , with a good working pedigree, living in the middle of family life look like -- here 





here is the pedigree of that particular dog Quirl vom Hessenstein - working-dog.eu

I like the attitude of this pup -- no treats or bribes -- genetic obedience, the desire to work with -- it all comes down to the relationship of the dog to the person. 



 
his pedigree Vax vom Hessenstein - working-dog.eu

got to go - later .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

I am not Cliff , but the answer would be the same as any other. Set parameters, follow through on a request, be kind , be fair, communicate what you want well, communicate quickly that you are pleased. 
You are not the dogs toy. You respect them , they respect you . 
No need to be harsh or over bearing , quietly assertive "She who is to be Obeyed" a favourite saying that was on a Brit program , Rumpole of the Bailey . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

The same as any other dog....I have raised many many dogs from puppy to ready to go to police work, (the first being Deleware State Police in 1982, (out of Enno vom Aftrenftal son)sp, and I have never had an aggression issue with any of my pups in terms of being unmanageable. Maybe, I'm lucky for a very long time....these dog need want Caemen said in raising them. I am alpha, I am fair, I am respected, and emotions and feelings do not affect my decisions. Dogs understand this and respond quite well to it in my experience.


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## Debbieg

cliffson1 said:


> The same as any other dog....I have raised many many dogs from puppy to ready to go to police work, (the first being Deleware State Police in 1982, (out of Enno vom Aftrenftal son)sp, and I have never had an aggression issue with any of my pups in terms of being unmanageable. Maybe, I'm lucky for a very long time....these dog need want Caemen said in raising them. I am alpha, I am fair, I am respected, and emotions and feelings do not affect my decisions. Dogs understand this and respond quite well to it in my experience.


That what I thought; You raise them the same way you should raise any other dog! I was not sure if you meant meant there was a different way to raise a dog bred from as you said "bred from another time"


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## onyx'girl

Cliff, Carmen, others who breed~
This is a bit off the topic...more of the opposite of what is being discussed, but what would you do if one of these pups/dogs were an unstable nervy fear aggressive type? 
I know they wouldn't be a subject for working K9, so what do you do? Work with the dog, put the dog down, give it away? Or do you never ever see this temperament in the lines you breed? 
I don't see ' treating it the same as any other dog' fits this type, because they are never the same.


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## Debbieg

carmspack said:


> every police service dog that I have had out there has gone home and lived with the handler and retired to live with the handler and his family.
> 
> all the dogs we have been talking about are specialized for a purpose that was needed "back then" -- . Once again , in the von Stephanitz book he writes about droves of specially selected dogs going into what we know as the eastern bloc . This was the foundation and gene pool for the Czech dogs.
> 
> As a group they do not represent all working dogs , which come from Germany, Belgium, and American (north) interpretations , according to the society and its needs .
> So lets look at some options .Lets find what it is supposed to be like . What does a good working dog , with a good working pedigree, living in the middle of family life look like -- here
> 
> Familienschutzhund 2 - Deutscher Schäferhund "Quirl vom Hessenstein" - YouTube
> here is the pedigree of that particular dog Quirl vom Hessenstein - working-dog.eu
> 
> I like the attitude of this pup -- no treats or bribes -- genetic obedience, the desire to work with -- it all comes down to the relationship of the dog to the person. Vom Welpen bis zum Hund Deutscher Schäferhund Vax vom Hessenstein - YouTube
> 
> his pedigree Vax vom Hessenstein - working-dog.eu
> 
> got to go - later .
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Those are excellent videos Carmen. I loved the way that first dog so calmly and confidently handled each situation and settled back. A dog happy in his own skin and thinking and responding . He does not need to be kept kenneled to have drive. Can tell friend from for better than most people.

Didn't get to watch all of the second one yet because my lunch break ended but what a great pup, so focused on the handler,


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## Lakl

Very nice videos, dogs, and information, Carmen. Thank you for posting! I am making a book of notes from the information I have received from those that have been posting in this thread!


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## Debbieg

onyx'girl said:


> Cliff, Carmen, others who breed~
> This is a bit off the topic...more of the opposite of what is being discussed, but what would you do if one of these pups/dogs were an unstable nervy fear aggressive type?
> I know they wouldn't be a subject for working K9, so what do you do? Work with the dog, put the dog down, give it away? Or do you never ever see this temperament in the lines you breed?
> I don't see ' treating it the same as any other dog' fits this type, because they are never the same.


Not a breeder but do have dog who is a bit reactive , and low thresholds. I think you do treat them the same, but you don't expect them to do the same type of work. You still raise them with clear consistent rules, kindness, lots of praise, correction appropriate for the dog and ensure they respect you and don't think of you as a toy or a littermate. 

Each of my dogs have been very different in tempermant but the basic way I trained them remains the same.


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## onyx'girl

Debbieg said:


> Not a breeder but do have dog who is a bit reactive , and low thresholds. I think you do treat them the same, but you don't expect them to do the same type of work. You still raise them with clear consistent rules, kindness, lots of praise, correction appropriate for the dog and ensure they respect you and don't think of you as a toy or a littermate.
> 
> Each of my dogs have been very different in tempermant but the basic way I trained them remains the same.


I agree with you. My question was more of ~ I know it shows itself early on as far as nerves, so they don't waste time in raising up a young pup with poor nerves for a working prospect. 
We know that reactive, unstable nerved dogs need to be managed a bit differently....where do the breeders (who see this) place these pups if they do end up with one? Or don't they ever get such a pup because they are so selective in their pairings? 
I am aware that many breeders don't see it and just sell the pup as any other, but a breeder with knowledge of what it takes to be a work prospect see's it early on. I guess this should be addressed in a new thread.


----------



## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with you. My question was more of ~ I know it shows itself early on as far as nerves, so they don't waste time in raising up a young pup with poor nerves for a working prospect.
> We know that reactive, unstable nerved dogs need to be managed a bit differently....where do the breeders (who see this) place these pups if they do end up with one? Or don't they ever get such a pup because they are so selective in their pairings?
> I am aware that many breeders don't see it and just sell the pup as any other, but a breeder with knowledge of what it takes to be a work prospect see's it early on. I guess this should be addressed in a new thread.


No!! I think this is a direct correlation to this thread and would be interested to hear an answer from some of the breeders in this thread if they have experienced this... Good question!


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## robinhuerta

Just like the terms are used to describe problems differently for different dogs....or bloodlines.
on one hand you will hear "nervy" for a description from one person...and you will hear the term "edgy" used from another.....*I hear and see the terms used all the time.*
one says tomatoe...another says tomatoe....can be the same thing.


*informative thread BTW, some things get "said" without even being "said"....very interesting reading.*
I always enjoy a good learning experience.


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## Jack's Dad

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with you. My question was more of ~ I know it shows itself early on as far as nerves, so they don't waste time in raising up a young pup with poor nerves for a working prospect.
> We know that reactive, unstable nerved dogs need to be managed a bit differently....where do the breeders (who see this) place these pups if they do end up with one? Or don't they ever get such a pup because they are so selective in their pairings?
> I am aware that many breeders don't see it and just sell the pup as any other, but a breeder with knowledge of what it takes to be a work prospect see's it early on. I guess this should be addressed in a new thread.


Great question Jane.
I wonder about this too. For example I think Cliff, Carmen, Anne, and others could train almost any dog. 
So everyone knows genetics plays a big role but I wonder if some of the dogs that Cliff trains would be unstable in a lot of family companion homes. In other words the owners don't have the same capacity to train and make a safe dog out of some pairings that might not be difficult for those mentioned above and others.


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## Lakl

Jack's Dad said:


> Great question Jane.
> I wonder about this too. For example I think Cliff, Carmen, Anne, and others could train almost any dog.
> So everyone knows genetics plays a big role but I wonder if some of the dogs that Cliff trains would be unstable in a lot of family companion homes. In other words the owners don't have the same capacity to train and make a safe dog out of some pairings that might not be difficult for those mentioned above and others.



Oooh, very good point, Andy. I think of my own personal experience with my first GSD who is fear/dog reactive. I remember being soo nervous out in public places and on walks with her, eyes wide open for anything that might cross our path and set her off. I was tense with a firm grasp on the leash, and then when she'd react, I'd jump and struggle to get her under control, all the while worried that people would think I had a dangerous animal on my hands. 

Now? Its completely different. I am completely at ease walking her. I've learned to read her body language and signals. I can correct the reaction before it happens because I KNOW when it's going to happen now. And because I am at ease, she is at ease. Any outbursts are minimal because I am calm, firm, and direct with her, and she recognizes what I expect from her. I also know that if I allowed just anyone to walk her in public, they would experience what I experienced when I was first learning to deal with this behavior. I don't even allow the DH to walk her unless I am present because he does not know how to deal with it. So, I think this is a very good point/question!


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## Jack's Dad

carmspack said:


> I am not Cliff , but the answer would be the same as any other. Set parameters, follow through on a request, be kind , be fair, communicate what you want well, communicate quickly that you are pleased.
> You are not the dogs toy. You respect them , they respect you .
> No need to be harsh or over bearing , quietly assertive "She who is to be Obeyed" a favourite saying that was on a Brit program , Rumpole of the Bailey .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



From Cliff:
The same as any other dog....I have raised many many dogs from puppy to ready to go to police work, (the first being Deleware State Police in 1982, (out of Enno vom Aftrenftal son)sp, and I have never had an aggression issue with any of my pups in terms of being unmanageable. Maybe, I'm lucky for a very long time....these dog need want Caemen said in raising them. I am alpha, I am fair, I am respected, and emotions and feelings do not affect my decisions. Dogs understand this and respond quite well to it in my experience.


What Cliff and Carmen are saying here sounds easy. 
I try to do the same but am probabably mediocre at best. Good enough that so far it has worked well enough.
I wonder though how many people who get GSD's realize that without doing something akin to what they are saying and being convincing realize the problems they can be in for.
There are many threads that indicate there are numerous problems and that shouldn't be the case. 
If you are afraid then better get another breed. Because all eighty or so pounds can walk all over you.


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## GSD07

Training, managing and living with a fearful/fear aggressive dog will be challenging even for Cliff, Carmen and Anne unless they reside on a remote farm, and I will not believe if told otherwise. I'm not talking about just training sessions/giving suggestions. Jane asked an excellent question. 

Raising, training and enjoying a well bred working line is a walk in the park in comparison.


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## Debbieg

GSD07 said:


> Training, managing and living with a fearful/fear aggressive dog will be challenging even for Cliff, Carmen and Anne unless they reside on a remote farm, and I will not believe if told otherwise. I'm not talking about just training sessions/giving suggestions. Jane asked an excellent question.
> 
> Raising, training and enjoying a well bred working line is a walk in the park in comparison.


Yes, but training, and living with a fear reactive aggressive dog, raising that dog to reach their potential can teach us so much. We learn to better read dogs, how to handle them from the dogs themselves, and we learn from the experienced people on forums like this and good trainers. 

And this experience will make us better appreciate a well bred working line and those who breed them all the more.


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## carmspack

very good question. I just got home , but will definitely spend some time on this . 
Carmen


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## cliffson1

I am no magician when it comes to nervy dogs, nor am I lucky all the time. There are nervy edgy dogs that are genetic based and there are nervy edgy dogs that are environmentally induced, and there are edgy nervy dogs that are combination of both. I just stack the deck in my favor with dogs from lines that are balanced and strong in nerve when acquiring a pup. I will get another pup in two days, never met the breeder, never met the dogs, don't know how they raise the pups so as to be reputable, just know that I feel comfortable the dog will have good nerve and I will take it from there. There are certain lines and dogs that I would not do this with because of the genetics of the dog. With some lines I have found that odds of getting good nerve is probably 6,7 pups out of 8 pups. With other lines I have found this to be 3,4 pups(maybe), out of 8 and those odds are not acceptable to me. I understand the reasons for this because I look at breeding from a professional perspective in terms of the strengths and weaknesses of genetics and what to look for and what to stay away from. I am not obsessed with color, size, extreme gait or beauty, but primarily in a good well bred GS with solid nerve. This formula has worked for me in getting dogs from litters sight unseen for years and they're pretty good dogs in terms of reactive aggression that is able to be controlled and functional. But people are so caught up in emotions and feelings about their type, color, line, what will other breeder friends think, and blah blah blah, that they are going against the grain in terms of odds and get what they like but often not what they want. 
I don't believe in repeated coincidences, some people breed from logic and some breed from feelings and likes, just like owners, and the world is at a place where you can't educate without alienating. So life goes on.


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## cliffson1

Also, there are other excellent breeders on this board that look at genetics from a logical and well thought out analysis that produce very excellent dogs also. Some are my friends, some may not be, but either way they are smart enough to not get caught up in talking too much because they understand the consequences....I have to learn to not be so forward much of the time.


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## Jack's Dad

GSD07 said:


> Training, managing and living with a fearful/fear aggressive dog will be challenging even for Cliff, Carmen and Anne unless they reside on a remote farm, and I will not believe if told otherwise. I'm not talking about just training sessions/giving suggestions. Jane asked an excellent question.
> 
> Raising, training and enjoying a well bred working line is a walk in the park in comparison.


Thanks, I'm aware of and enjoying a well bred WL.

I believe Jane's question was about puppies or recognizing nerves at a young age and whether you even bother with them.

I was simply adding that I think some dogs who are not handled or trained properly by some of us can wind up fearful and reactive. As opposed to genetically deficient.

I seriously hope that all the dogs that show up with these problems are not all genetically screwed up. I'm guessing that a percentage are caused by not raisng them well.


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## Mrs.K

Debbieg said:


> Yes, but training, and living with a fear reactive aggressive dog, raising that dog to reach their potential can teach us so much. We learn to better read dogs, how to handle them from the dogs themselves, and we learn from the experienced people on forums like this and good trainers.
> 
> And this experience will make us better appreciate a well bred working line and those who breed them all the more.



But you are extremely limited in what you do, at all. 

You have to make a decision and a huge commitment. Not everyone can do that, not everybodie is willing to do it. Plus it's a huge risk, especially if you regularly have kids over. 

And lets face it. The Forum can't really help in cases like that. You've got to SEE THE DOG with your own eyes to actually give advise. 

Managing, yes, the forum can help as in crate rotation etc. But as for training a fear aggressive dog, the forum can't help. The only help a forum can give you is to give the advise to go to a behaviorist. 

Other than that, without knowing the dog, the circumstances and the handler itself... it's just an educated guess and sometimes, the given advise on here is downright dangerous!


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## Nikitta

My 6 month old puppy Jasira is from a working line. Granted I have taken her to puppy classes since I got her and she does have a strong personality, other then the turkey junkie incident, she has always been a very social dog with both people and other dogs.


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## onyx'girl

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks, I'm aware of and enjoying a well bred WL.
> *
> I believe Jane's question was about puppies or recognizing nerves at a young age and whether you even bother with them.*
> 
> I was simply adding that I think some dogs who are not handled or trained properly by some of us can wind up fearful and reactive. As opposed to genetically deficient.
> 
> I seriously hope that all the dogs that show up with these problems are not all genetically screwed up. I'm guessing that a percentage are caused by not raisng them well.


Yes, that was my question. I don't think we'll be getting much feedback as far as answers though as Cliff pointed out~


> but either way they are smart enough to not get caught up in talking too much because they understand the consequences....


I was curious where the pups end up that may be on the fearful/timid end of the scale and if there even are any very often in these *stronger* pedigrees.


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## Mrs.K

As for the orginal question. 

I currently have four Working Line Shepherds in the House. None of them is altered. Two males, two females. 

The oldest one is 7, one is 23 months, the other one 16 months and the youngest one 14 months (if I'm not mistaken). 

The new girl is the one with the highest drive and on the field, she's like that:
Nala vom Kassler Kreuz - YouTube

In the house, they are like that... even if they don't get training for a couple of weeks. The only one that's a little on the insane and crazy side is my young male.


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## carmspack

I put a very high premium on temperament. Even if a dog is lacking drive , it cannot be lacking in basic foundation of temperamental soundness. Without temperament you have nothing . 
I would not train to disquise something. 
An unstable nervy fear aggressive type -- sorry , I would not pass on the problem. I would do what needs to be done . Fortunately I have not faced this problem with my own dogs or progeny so I would be second guessing myself by saying I would put the dog , humanely, to sleep. I can't imagine the anquish the dog would live with. 
I did have an animal that fit that description that I bought . So wary, so unpredictable , so high in avoidance , and yet had several attacks in less than a week. He nailed me , and then later after being "normal" with my young teen son, he attacked him front on and arm of his well padded army surplus coat. My son was "cool" did not react in a way that would provoke the dog. He had some good dog skills . The dog was sent back toot de suit, with a vet report on his observations . 
I do not pass on problems. If I produced them then I am responsible for them and to dog to do the best for them . They would not ever be bred . I have one right now who is a good dog except that he is a flank sucker and chews off the hair , only the long hairs of his tail , leaving his tail to look like a flannel covered whip when females come into season. He is otherwise even and stable but that bit of anxiety is enough for me to cull him from breeding -- . Nobody wants a weird looking dog, maybe if he was black and tan -- 

Litters are pretty consistent and the randomness is controlled by having worked with so many successive generations . I am the one who has selected and fine tuned and critically evaluated the results and guided improvements for the next generation. If I have a new female added to my line up that is alien to what I have , although there are lines , like Wolfstraum that I tend to concentrate on, so no radical changes , then I tend to keep the majority of the litter past the 9 month mark - up to a year. Yes a lot of work, but I need to know maturity rates , drive development, how they keep, learn , cope , etc . 
An unstable nervy fear aggressive dog - I would humanely have put down. No need to multiply the anquish , the dog suffers, the keeper suffers, and the victims suffer . 

I did have one female sent to me that was very shy , kept her for a year to rehab her . She was otherwise a lovely animal -- not a mean bone , no aggression , just so inhibited and "soft" , she would melt . She was given to a retired couple , who loved the dog , and travelled with her in their retirement travels in their motor coach. This combination fit -- no demands put on the dog , controlled environment .
They KNEW , because I told them what the dog was . No hiding with training . This was a retiring , cautious animal , no aggression .
We are talking about basic temperament natural to the animal , not behaviour that came about from indulgence , being spoiled . 
Training is to help expose what the animal is , not to cover up and hide.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jack's Dad

Thanks Carmen.

For the record I was not implying that any of you would train around issues.

Just that some of you may have the capacity to deal with dogs that some of us may not.


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## Mrs.K

> An unstable nervy fear aggressive dog - I would humanely have put down. No need to multiply the anquish , the dog suffers, the keeper suffers, and the victims suffer .


It is a very, very unpopular decision though. People get bashed like **** if they do make that decision and I wonder how much that plays into dumping the dogs at shelters if they can't handle them anymore. :help:


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## Jack's Dad

Mrs.K said:


> It is a very, very unpopular decision though. People get bashed like **** if they do make that decision and I wonder how much that plays into dumping the dogs at shelters if they can't handle them anymore. :help:


And then adopted by some poor soul who won't be able to manage the dog.


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## carmspack

I know Mrs K , but that is not responsible . 
I have had dogs dumped at my property.
Came home one time to a strange dog in one of the pens I used to have , 8 by 16 . It was positioned close to the house so when I had a new mother I could whip her outside , do my paper changing , floor washing and bring her in quickly to her babies again.

The dog was totally unapproachable. Clearly dangerous aggressive. Called in animal control who said because it was under control (in the kennel run) it was technically my dog ---- I persisted and they finally came . The animal control officer said he had never seen anything as "wild" . Before he went into action he advised me that this dog would not be adoptable and that there was only one option, I was told he would be put down. I said I knew. Signed the paper and then the next hour was the officer trying to catch the dog with his pole and noose.

I have done a lot of volunteer work over the years at shelters -- .


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## GSDElsa

Jack's Dad said:


> Thanks, I'm aware of and enjoying a well bred WL.
> 
> I believe Jane's question was about puppies or recognizing nerves at a young age and whether you even bother with them.
> 
> I was simply adding that I think some dogs who are not handled or trained properly by some of us can wind up fearful and reactive. As opposed to genetically deficient.
> 
> I seriously hope that all the dogs that show up with these problems are not all genetically screwed up. I'm guessing that a percentage are caused by not raisng them well.


I'm not Cliff, or Carmen, or anyone else  but I do think there are some dogs that are kind of "borderline" and if raised in a way that fosters good leadership that if the dog never has real pressure put on them the cracks won't show (ie the dogs in the majority of homes). But I don't see those borderline dogs really excelling in work as the pressure will probably exceed what they can handle at some point.

And not speaking specifically for anyone on this thread, but breeders or handlers who need dogs to have prefect nerves will generally rehome them....at least in my observations of others doing so. 

And re: some other comments in the thread. From doing rescue and now working dogs...I'm not sure handling a fear aggressive, weak nerved dog in day to day is even comparable to working a strong, aggressive dog in sport or "real" work. The approaches that both require are so different.


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## JakodaCD OA

not a breeder here, but I had a fear biter/nervy dog years ago when I was "young and dumb"..Definately genetics, his mother was the same way.

It's a 24/7 job of monitoring especially when you have people coming and going. No I didn't put him down, that just isn't in my nature to do so. You could take him out in public, but he was unapproachable. So he was limited to walks in areas that I new were safe, had a fenced yard, he was a happy dog in his own little world, and can I say "dumb as a rock" LOL..He had his circle of human friends and that was it. I NEVER trusted him around kids or strangers. 

But he was what he was, he lived until 9 years old (spondylosis), never 'bit' anyone but did nip a few who were stupid enough to put their hands over the fence. 

When he was gone, it was rather strange to get myself out of that "management" mode since it wasn't necessary with the other dogs I had. 

It is not a way I want to live or would want a dog like him again..


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## cliffson1

Carmen, superb post about shy nervy dogs. I agree 100%. I too donot and will not deal with this type of dog and also will not pass it on. Fortunately, I also have not bred one that I know of,(have bred dogs that had different threshholds, but nerve base was solid), and haven't had one acquired. Soft dogs that are sweet, yes(which I also find a nice pet home for), but that shy nervy reactive type, no. 
Gentic shyness is a part of the breed through some of the foundation dogs, breeder's ability to maximize nerve (foundation of temperament), and minimize things like genetic shyness are part of being an excellent breeder. But as Carmen says it requires generational knowledge. Sorry Folks, it requires more than putting together two dogs with nice temperament and titles and hips/elbows done. Much more! Some of you don't believe we are truthful about high success of litters and acquiring good dogs. But that is because so many breeders today besides BYB, are breeders who have two dogs that have nice temperament, maybe have titles, and have certs and presto the breeding is reputable and responsible. Sometimes it is, many times it isn't. Often it is a continued recipe for producong a high percent of nervy, soft, shy, dogs that are uncharacteristic of the breed.
So many people with Websites and numbers and examinations are breeding dogs and yet we still proliferate a high percent of weak nerved dogs and hip and elbow problems. The warranty of the titles and hip and elbow certs has become compromised. Weak temperament and bad hips often occur from these dogs. This is because people are not understanding that breeding for a solid dog requires generational knowledge and matching the dogs, without regard to the asthectics.(beauty or color or big heads,etc).
I know countless people who look at pictures of dogs out of a website or Review magasine and want a dog out of that dog. They know no more about the dog inside the head or body than Adam's housecat. This is what they are going to breed to, or get a puppy from....like pups are direct likeness from that one parent without the other parents involvement. This is the mentality that permeates the scene these days....and if you write or call them on it you are the big bad basher. There are scientific principles to breeding that are violated all the time in the name of asthectics or extreme performance, yet when dogs or pups are created with temperament/health issues(that are known causes in science of these traits), people want to point to the sire or dam for the problem. No folks, its deeper than that, its from a lack of knowledge on the part of the breeder in the first place more often than not. Or the refusal to acknowledge faulty breeding in the name of BUT I LIKE....
I can't make extremely shy nervy dogs better with training, they live miserable lives themselves, but that's the reason I speak out on causation of these type of dogs so often....because prevention is the only remedy in my eyes.


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## Lakl

Well, going back to the question that Onyx asked and some of the lines we disagreed upon...

Do you think it's possible to take a dog that would normally be considered stable, high drive, with great working potential by experienced working folks and place him into the hands of an inexperienced pet owner and completely ruin him so that he becomes unmanageable or considered a liability?

Let me add, in the case like you described, where someone just likes the looks of the parents, but has never owned this type of dog and has no clue on training,etc...


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## Mrs.K

> I know countless people who look at pictures of dogs out of a website or Review magasine and want a dog out of that dog. They know no more about the dog inside the head or body than Adam's housecat. This is what they are going to breed to, or get a puppy from....like pups are direct likeness from that one parent without the other parents involvement. This is the mentality that permeates the scene these days....and if you write or call them on it you are the big bad basher.


The same thing goes for color. Dogs are put together that should have never been put together just because they want to produce a certain type of color so the pups would sell better. People want that super black sable with the pencil toes and racoon eyes.


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## Mrs.K

Lakl said:


> Well, going back to the question that Onyx asked and some of the lines we disagreed upon...
> 
> Do you think it's possible to take a dog that would normally be considered stable, high drive, with great working potential by experienced working folks and place him into the hands of an inexperienced pet owner and completely ruin him so that he becomes unmanageable or considered a liability?
> 
> Let me add, in the case like you described, where someone just likes the looks of the parents, but has never owned this type of dog and has no clue on training,etc...


Yes, absolutely. 

It happens all the time. There are plenty of examples out there. 

Those dogs get sold from hand to hand. Everybody wants that dog, everybody wants to try and have a "real dog" and then they find out they can't handle them. While they were hard dogs in the beginning, in the end, normal people can't even touch them anymore until they get into hands that can handle them. Most of these dogs went into history by producing top notch offspring and working dogs. Especially during the 70-90's.


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## Jack's Dad

Great post Cliff.

Too bad peple can't get more information like that before they go out and purchase that cute little puppy.

I, like Diane had one nervy/edgy fear biter in my life and don't ever want to deal with that again.


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> Gentic shyness is a part of the breed through some of the foundation dogs, breeder's ability to maximize nerve (foundation of temperament), and minimize things like genetic shyness are part of being an excellent breeder.


Can someone elaborate on this? Was the trait (shyness) more common in dogs from a certain region? 

Also, it seems like so many people confuse protective with fearful behavior, do you think orginally these traits were passed on because breeders misread the dogs?

Interesting stuff!


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## GSD07

GSDElsa said:


> I'm not sure handling a fear aggressive, weak nerved dog in day to day is even comparable to working a strong, aggressive dog in sport or "real" work. The approaches that both require are so different.


 And now imagine a strong, aggressive dog with weak nerves, and imagine what it takes to deal with it. Unfortunately, a weak nerved dog from a 'reputable' breeder is not a sweet shy Am. shepherd with less than stellar nerves. Approaches are definitely different because one never can become a partner with a fearful dog, never can grow into a team, or place any trust into that dog. So sad. 

Cliff, I think we came close to finding a definition to the term 'reputable breeder' in this thread, and it's not an OFA or a warranty


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## Mrs.K

_



I'm not sure handling a fear aggressive, weak nerved dog in day to day is even comparable to working a strong, aggressive dog in sport or "real" work. The approaches that both require are so different.

Click to expand...

It can't. Gildo is the best example. I know I pull him out a lot but he is a good example. People are always like "OMG, aggressive, die-hard and insane working dog." but there is a difference between working them on the field and them being at home. 

He was the sweetest family dog and if you only knew him as a family pet you would have NEVER guessed what kind of a working dog he really was. 

The nasty ones do exist. I am not saying that they don't exist but you just can't judge a dog only from papers or from what you see on the field. Some dogs are only nasty on the field and the sweetest dogs at home. Some are nasty at home and run from the helper, others are nasty on the field and at home... 

That is why it is so important to know the dog yourself and to know what the dogs have produced. 
_


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## robinhuerta

I don't think any breeder or any bloodline has the corner stone of perfection.
I think that stellar dogs come from solid, sound breedings.. period.
Litters of all bloodlines, may differentiate in particular "drive levels"...but the solidness and soundness should remain the same.

I've bought and owned over the years..."puppies/dogs with less than desirable temperaments"....from some very sought after bloodlines (both WL & SL)...so my expectations might differ from *some*.
I cannot own a dog that has "questionable temperament"...or an easy trigger...
Levels of drive?...yes. Prey vs defense (or vice verse)?...yes....but an "unstable or unreliable" dog?....no.
I like that there are dogs that can go _from home_ to SAR, Police work, or any other job or venue (if chosen).....personally, I think that they *should* be capable.
JMO...

@MrsK....I owned a Gildo granddaughter, and she was not the strongest in "nerve" strength....prey YES.
It was many years ago...and I can't find her pedigree (so I can't comment on her mother line).
Her father's name was Bruno???.(sold to the USA)....he was not a "nice" dog, but the folks back them... called him "hard & edgy"....however,...that is open to interpretation.


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## Debbieg

cliffson1 said:


> Gentic shyness is a part of the breed through some of the foundation dogs, breeder's ability to maximize nerve (foundation of temperament), and minimize things like genetic shyness are part of being an excellent breeder. .


 
This is a wonderful thread (causing me to sepnd too much time on the computer )

Would you say there is a scale of this genetic shyness or weak nerve and a breeder, dog owner must decide how much is acceptable? No dog is perfect? Does what you consider a sound tempermant have no shyness at all?

I have had GSD's most of my life, some from breeders, and a few from shelters.
i had a GSD many years ago, gorgeous to look at, but had weak nerves, high drive and very agressive. He was a danger to others, hard to love with and unhappy out of his small comfort zone.

Benny does have some reactivity, low thresholds, which our trainer says is genetic, but it is not that bad. He has no problem with children climbing all over him, This weakness shows mostly when people approach him in a way he deems threatening or when his prey drive gets amped up. This just means he can't be a therapy dog and I need to find things that make him focus, like tracking, I would not want to breed a dog with this weakness, and hope to avoid it with my next dog, but this level of genetic shyness is acceptable for me to live with. The good tempermant traits ourweigh the bad.


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## carmspack

if this derails the current line of thought, my apologies, but I want to get back to Lakl's question about the working dog in the pet home.

Really difficult to communicate this so bear with me.
Resource material would be , Trummler, Lorenz, Behan, Budiansky, Horowitz, Coppinger , among others.

Leave the working aspect out of it for the moment because that and the requirements are really very clear cut. I find it very easy to deal with because the expectations are clear -- can the dog do ...? yes, no. The dog will be tested, retested, tested through application in work , and will either have a renewed contract to continue in work or be fired , washed out, replaced. Requirements tend to be fairly universal, consistent . 

Pet home is totally different . Emotion based.This is one bone to pick with so many web sites , including breeders of Czech dogs and DDR dogs in particular , which post pictures of newborns, week olds, and then provide family album like day by day week by week pictures. To what end . There is not one thing you can gain to know about the pup . BUT there is a process by which we connect to the infantile , the rounded features, the short muzzle, the flop ears . Then people "fall in love" , have to have THAT one , with the red collar, or pink collar . That is emotional exploitation. At no time have the dynamics of the pup been assessed for suitablity for that particular owner. Nor are dogs assessed and chosen at 4 weeks, by the buyer . 
We have so many breeds which are frozen in infantile states physically, pugs, cavaliers , king charles, pekenese, lhasa apso , french bulls, boston terriers etc. a whole class of deliberately created pure companion dogs. Their head construction stays at a point of development at about 4 weeks of age . This is neotony. The deliberate retention of juvenile characteristics.
Not only physically , but for pet homes there is a desire to want to retain juvenile or infantile behaviour well into adult hood, maybe forever.

A dog frozen in this perpetual puppy state is approachable, inviting, brings out the nuture , gives an opportunity to continue infantilize and treat as a surrogate child. We don't want the dog to grow. But a good parent who is healthy and wants healthy well adjusted children to become well adjusted healthy participants in a well adjusted society will do every thing possible to make that child competent, self confident , responsible, empathetic and mature. We want to help them become independent and leave home. 

There are dogs that can fit this pet category well because they have been bred to be hyper social. Wait we're getting to it.

Over the years dogs, even GSD, have gone through a selection process to make them more pettish . Less of the instinct , softer all round . Great pet material . Working not so much , because of what has been lost. 
Then there are other categories that required the dog to mature and master , be able to control and confront. The puppy hood passes quickly. There is purpose and an impression of being able to take care of themselves. 
Even the puppies look different . The ears tend to come up earlier, their noses start to lengthen earlier, they tend to give a fearless direct eye contact earlier , their body seems like a mini adult , instead of the clumsy rolly polly, their drives - tracking , prey are there without too much preparation or instruction -- it just is. This is a comment on observation from my own group -- I don't see a lot of nonsense or landsharking. The play for that is not there -- yet there is a very early connection - just like the woman in the Hessenstein youtube with the dog so in tune with her -- no goofy juvenile. That dog already has become a beneficial member working in harmony, doing its part for the betterment of the group. That is mature behaviour.

I do believe , using the Czech dogs in particular, and not all working lines, that the Czech dogs were chosen for , genetically, generation after generation to be mature, with full repertory instincts - a dog who could master a situation , which is not a juvenile trait, unless you are in a grocery and throwing a fit .

So to want them to be juvenile and emotional , or being yourself emotional and frenetic, and telegraphing your own fear , then the dog would not do well -- . 

got to go -- later -- if you want --

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## gagsd

Carmen,
That is probably my favorite post yet. Thank you.


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## Andaka

Carmen,

That post made me look at my own breeding program thru different eyes.


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## Jack's Dad

Carmen:

You and Cliff are on a roll today. These are posts that anyone with or considering a GSD should read. Thanks.


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> Over the years dogs, even GSD, have gone through a selection process to make them more pettish . Less of the instinct , softer all round . Great pet material . Working not so much , because of what has been lost.


Carmen, what bloodlines would you suggest for a person who wants a "pettish" companion GSD? One that is calm, easy to manage, not terribly demanding or pushy? Whose drive level is low to moderate and whose exercise needs can be taken care of with daily walks or playing ball in the yard? That is protective of the home and family, yet safe in social situations and tolerant of guests? A dog that can go anywhere and do anything without worry of inappropriate aggression?

All this is assuming, of course, that the family in question has a measure of dog-savvy and is prepared to obedience train and socialize the dog, and will not be making novice mistakes.

I suppose there could be such an individual dog out of any bloodlines that would fit the bill, but I'm wondering if some are better than others. Like the working dog breeder who occasionally gets a "washout", a dog who does not have enough drive for the work, but is still stable and solid in temperament.

Sorry if this is somewhat off-topic. I get a lot of people who ask me about GSDs and where to go for such a dog (and as I get older, such a dog seems appealing to me as well!). But most of the good breeders I know produce dogs that are high drive, high energy, high exercise needs, who need a definite job, maybe a bit too much dog for the average family.


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## cliffson1

Most of the good breeders I know produce dogs that go into a family easily. Whether the lines be American, German, or Czech. Its not the lines as much as the breeding program and what the emphasis of the breeding program is....JMO. If the program is about breeding for the complete dog, then this breed should not have a problem with families. The early Czech dogs did have more of a propensity to be somewhat sharp and outwardly strong,(though they were often very handler soft and no problem with immediate family), today most Czech dogs have been combined with West dogs and you don't see as much of the reactive aggression as in the past. Actually, most Czech pedigrees I see these days are pretty sporty, these type of dogs shouldn't have a problem with a reasonable family. There are hundreds maybe thousands of Czech dogs and pups imported into this country every year. Almost all the pups are imported by families. It is rare to see Czech dogs hanging out in shelters in comparison to the number that are bought into the country to families and are successful.
Now a lot of people want to get a German shepherd that is not active, strong, courageous, athletic, etc....when you go down that road other issues start popping up because the GS was not made to be a couch potato. So to consistently produce that you stack the deck in that favor, but the stacking of the deck leads to problems, because you have to start consistently breeding for softer temperament and eventually the nerve starts slipping. The breed is a hardy robust breed and if you try to deviate, issues will crop up in opposite direction.JMO


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> Now a lot of people want to get a German shepherd that is not active, strong, courageous, athletic, etc....when you go down that road other issues start popping up because the GS was not made to be a couch potato. So to consistently produce that you stack the deck in that favor, but the stacking of the deck leads to problems, because you have to start consistently breeding for softer temperament and eventually the nerve starts slipping. The breed is a hardy robust breed and if you try to deviate, issues will crop up in opposite direction.JMO


Right. Most "pet" homes that want a GSD basically want a calm, laid-back dog, but one that will also be protective. So often these two don't seem to go together... the "pet" type GSD is too soft, too sensitive, too submissive to be much more than an alarm barker. This is what happens when people breed *for* pets.

But I would guess that, in a working-bred litter, the pup that is confident, outgoing, and inquisitive, but doesn't go berserk after the rag like his littermates, would be the best candidate for a companion home. I was just wondering if there are specific lines that tend to produce calm, high-threshold, socially stable dogs. If so, I imagine the perfect "pet" is the one pup out of that litter who would rather lie down and chew his toy while the rest of the pups go bonkers over the rag. He would probably not be soft, sensitive, or submissive... just has less drive and less need for movement than his brothers and sisters. Such a pup would probably not go to a working home, am I correct?


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> *Most of the good breeders I know produce dogs that go into a family easily. Whether the lines be American, German, or Czech. Its not the lines as much as the breeding program and what the emphasis of the breeding program is....JMO. If the program is about breeding for the complete dog, then this breed should not have a problem with families.* The early Czech dogs did have more of a propensity to be somewhat sharp and outwardly strong,(though they were often very handler soft and no problem with immediate family), today most Czech dogs have been combined with West dogs and you don't see as much of the reactive aggression as in the past. Actually, most Czech pedigrees I see these days are pretty sporty, these type of dogs shouldn't have a problem with a reasonable family. There are hundreds maybe thousands of Czech dogs and pups imported into this country every year. Almost all the pups are imported by families. It is rare to see Czech dogs hanging out in shelters in comparison to the number that are bought into the country to families and are successful.
> Now a lot of people want to get a German shepherd that is not active, strong, courageous, athletic, etc....when you go down that road other issues start popping up because the GS was not made to be a couch potato. So to consistently produce that you stack the deck in that favor, but the stacking of the deck leads to problems, because you have to start consistently breeding for softer temperament and eventually the nerve starts slipping. The breed is a hardy robust breed and if you try to deviate, issues will crop up in opposite direction.JMO


Thank you. Especially the bolded part is important and it's pretty much what I am always trying to say. A sound Shepherd should have no issues to live within a family or in a nice pet home. If they can't than something is wron with the overall dog. I wouldn't want a Shepherd that can't live in a family.


----------



## Emoore

Mrs.K said:


> A sound Shepherd should have no issues to live within a family or in a nice pet home. If they can't than something is wron with the overall dog.


Ah, but there are so flippin' many definitions of a "nice pet home." I walk my dogs 2-3 miles a day with a 3-6 mile offleash hike on the weekends, we play ball or flirtpole a couple of times a day, we work obedience and agility daily and we go to agility classes and are starting obedience classes along with agility at the first of the year. I'm experienced enough and confident enough to deal with discipline problems should they arise and if I can't I know where to find help. I know what to do if my GSD tries to claim my couch or my bed as his own. Am I a nice pet home? Because your average pet home takes one obedience class at PetSmart, walks 30 minutes a day if they're lucky, and hasn't got the slightest idea what to do when the dog growls at the kids.


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## Jack's Dad

emoore.

Another great question. The only people I know who can spend the time and do all the things you do, don't work or have kids or both.
Or working with dogs is their job.
Mine survive on a lot less exercise than yours but I don't think it's the norm.


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## Lakl

I am just getting home and getting caught up on the days posts. Truly great information and much to absorb!! :thumbup::thumbup:

The discussion regarding appropriate placement of dogs in pet homes continues to make me question whether or not this particular line is appropriate for ME, and here is the reason why...

Before my first GSD, I was exactly what Carmen described in her last post - a pocket puppy lovin fool. The smaller, the better in fact! The DH, for YEARS, begged me for a GSD, but insisted it would have to be a puppy and live in the home. Though my family has always been dog lovers, I was raised up to believe that big dogs ALWAYS live outside. NO WAY, NO HOW was I going to have some 80lb dog shedding, pooping, and peeing in my nice clean home! We negotiated back and forth for years. If it wasn't going to be a fully trained adult, and live in the backyard, then it just wasn't going to happen!

Then a few years ago we'd had an intruder, and I was frightened out of my mind, and it consumed me for months. I refused to go out at night alone, so the DH said, either we get a big dog or we get a gun. I refuse to keep a gun in my home because of the kids and the risks. So one night, while my husband was gone to military training for a week, I made an impulse decision and got a GSD. I brought her home at 9 weeks, thinking how excited he would be when he saw her, and I would at least have a deterrent around the house when he was away. 

Initially, I thought, she's too young to go outside, just a baby, so I'll keep her indoors until she's a bit bigger. She was completely housebroken in about 2 weeks, and by that time, there was no way I was gonna put that baby outside! I started doing some research on the breed and training and joined this forum and started talking to people. I watched a short video on Youtube about clicker training and within a week she had learned 8 commands. I became enamored with this pup, the breed, and its sheer intelligence. I quickly found myself eager to do things with and for her, and before long she was ALL MY dog. Training classes, and outings, getting up at 5:30am to walk her before work, and rushing home after work to get her out again. We went to national parks, and hiking, and I'm pretty sure I took more pictures of her puppyhood than I did my last child! Even now, most times, it's just me and the dogs when we go places. It's like I found myself again when I got my GSD. They are my escape and peace of mind from work, and being a wife, and a mother. 

What I'm trying to say is that, owning a GSD has brought things out in me that I didn't even realize. I LOVE teaching them things and watching them learn and grow, and in the meantime learn things about myself. So this is where I find difficulty in determining how well of a match I would be for a working line GSD. I've never owned and raised one, so I question whether I have what it takes, or if I would simply be over my head, or whether this type pup, too, will invoke that drive in me that continuously wants to bring forth the best in my dogs...


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## Emoore

Lakl said:


> So this is where I find difficulty in determining how well of a match I would be for a working line GSD.


Wanna borrow mine for a week?


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## Lakl

Emoore said:


> Wanna borrow mine for a week?


Lol, ooh, gimme, gimme!!


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## Jack's Dad

Lakl said:


> Lol, ooh, gimme, gimme!!


Are you kidding? Did you see how much time she puts in with her dogs. 

You would have to get a divorce and give away your children to take care of her dogs.


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## Emoore

Jack's Dad said:


> Are you kidding? Did you see how much time she puts in with her dogs.
> 
> You would have to get a divorce and give away your children to take care of her dogs.


You know it's funny, I've been sick this week and he's fine. I think most of the time it's him trying to keep up with me, not me trying to give him an outlet.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Emoore said:


> Wanna borrow mine for a week?


:rofl: She's already threatened to come sneak Halo away during the night, lol!


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## BR870

Jack's Dad said:


> Are you kidding? Did you see how much time she puts in with her dogs.
> 
> You would have to get a divorce and give away your children to take care of her dogs.


Nah... Just have the spouse take care of the kids while you take care of the dogs. Thats what my wife and I do.

I think she got the better end of the deal... Our son seems to be alot lower maintenance and he never chews on anything :smirk:


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## robinhuerta

Lakl.....you can always try "Izzy" on for a time.
Albeit...she is of the WL...she has no "nervy" issues, but she also doesn't lack in good drives....(to me) she is quite a nice representation of her bloodlines.
She can switch drives at a moments notice.....I thoroughly enjoy owning her.


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## Lakl

Lol, we manage to evenly split the household duties and kid management so that we both get an equal amount of time to do the things we like to do.

In addition, I have no social life and enjoy time with my dogs more so than people. How can you NOT wanna spend time with beings that adore you so much??


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## Lakl

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :rofl: She's already threatened to come sneak Halo away during the night, lol!


HALO is the one that makes me wanna try agility, flyball, and things of that nature. She just seems so fun!! And I love seeing her pics and videos!!


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## Lakl

robinhuerta said:


> Lakl.....you can always try "Izzy" on for a time.
> Albeit...she is of the WL...she has no "nervy" issues, but she also doesn't lack in good drives....(to me) she is quite a nice representation of her bloodlines.
> She can switch drives at a moments notice.....I thoroughly enjoy owning her.


Have I seen Izzy? I remember you talking about her, but I don't know if I've ever seen her? 

And then, of course, I would feel like I was at an advantage because you all have put so much foundation work into your dogs! I'm pretty sure someone's gonna need to send me a "trial puppy"!


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## cliffson1

There are American line breeder that produce the complete dog and there are SL breeders that produce the complete dog....regardless of the line if the person is breeding for the complete dog they can achieve it in any line. And the complete dog is not perfect, but acclimates well to the family situation it is presented into....as long as the family isn't a poor placement. Dirty little secret, everyone should not own a German Shepherd because what the dog reasonably needs for good development is not something they can or want to give. To me owning a GS is not an entitlement, and therefore people should breed what I want although it may not be conducive to the breed requirements. But I constantly hear people mistake drive as being difficult for family acclimation, and they should be focusing on nerve. A good nerved dog is capable of making the family acclimation, if reasonable, from any line. The less the nervebase, the more issues such as shyness, hyperactivity, aggression, etc will be difficult for the dog to control or family to manage. Breeders that put this first, tend to have fewer dogs returned or ending up in shelters for behavoiral reasons....regardless of the lines. In my opinion.


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## Jack's Dad

Lakl said:


> Lol, we manage to evenly split the household duties and kid management so that we both get an equal amount of time to do the things we like to do.
> 
> In addition, I have no social life and enjoy time with my dogs more so than people. How can you NOT wanna spend time with beings that adore you so much??


Well in that case why not borrow my 17 week old pup Zena. Right now she bites everything within reach and in just the last couple of days she forgot everything she had learned. She knew quite a few commands for her age but she must have had a puppy stroke and forgot.
Perhaps you could borrow her to get the full WL puppy experience and then give her back at about a year old.


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## robinhuerta

Cliff.....I loved your post.


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## onyx'girl

cliffson1 said:


> There are American line breeder that produce the complete dog and there are SL breeders that produce the complete dog....regardless of the line if the person is breeding for the complete dog they can achieve it in any line. And the complete dog is not perfect, but acclimates well to the family situation it is presented into....as long as the family isn't a poor placement. *Dirty little secret, everyone should not own a German Shepherd because what the dog reasonably needs for good development is not something they can or want to give.* The less the nervebase, the more issues such as shyness, hyperactivity, aggression, etc will be difficult for the dog to control or family to manage. Breeders that put this first, tend to have fewer dogs returned or ending up in shelters for behavoiral reasons....regardless of the lines. In my opinion.


This is why it is so important that breeders screen potential owners so the pups are not set up to fail. The breeder that will sell to anyone with $ is the one that has pups ending up in shelters. I wish breeders were required to have permanent ID on the pups to take responsibility for them if they do end up dumped. 
Not saying they should be returned to the breeder....
I sure wish every one that wants to be a breeder would go to a lecture by you Cliff, before they ever think of putting a pedigree match together.


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## Lakl

Jack's Dad said:


> Well in that case why not borrow my 17 week old pup Zena. Right now she bites everything within reach and in just the last couple of days she forgot everything she had learned. She knew quite a few commands for her age but she must have had a puppy stroke and forgot.
> Perhaps you could borrow her to get the full WL puppy experience and then give her back at about a year old.


Lol! Are you kidding? That's the FUNNEST stage! My male pup never went through that stage because of his issues. No mouthing or rough play and training had to be minimized because of his health. The hardest part with him was the waking up every 2-3 hours at night for potty breaks, but even that went by fast. He was easy breezy, so I really missed that stage unlike with my first gal who would eat my legs and hands up like they were covered in bbq sauce!


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## Lakl

robinhuerta said:


> Cliff.....I loved your post.


Weren't you just telling me this very same thing the other day??


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## Lakl

I really think this thread needs to be a sticky! There is SOOO much great info in here from a lot of great people!


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## robinhuerta

aw:
I told you...YOU are a great owner...and YOU are a great enthusiast...you learn quickly and have an open mind.


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## Lakl

robinhuerta said:


> aw:
> I told you...YOU are a great owner...and YOU are a great enthusiast...you learn quickly and have an open mind.


Only because I have access to some of *THE BEST* in the GSD world!!!:wub::wub:


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## marshies

Emoore said:


> Ah, but there are so flippin' many definitions of a "nice pet home." I walk my dogs 2-3 miles a day with a 3-6 mile offleash hike on the weekends, we play ball or flirtpole a couple of times a day, we work obedience and agility daily and we go to agility classes and are starting obedience classes along with agility at the first of the year. I'm experienced enough and confident enough to deal with discipline problems should they arise and if I can't I know where to find help. I know what to do if my GSD tries to claim my couch or my bed as his own. Am I a nice pet home? Because your average pet home takes one obedience class at PetSmart, walks 30 minutes a day if they're lucky, and hasn't got the slightest idea what to do when the dog growls at the kids.


The person you're describing, that's me. And I am BETTER than the average pet home. Most of my friends who are looking at me take care of my dog have commented on the time and effort that has gone in, and have wondered how regular people keep dogs.


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## RocketDog

That's me too, minus the agility part. ^

The thing that irritates me is when friends comment, "We just want a regular dog". They always say how "lucky" I've been because my dogs have always been so excellent off-leash and just a pleasure to be around. It's not luck, it's work!

:headbang:


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## Debbieg

I consider myself a very active companion home. Now that my children are grown I have the luxury to center my life on my dog even though I still work full time. I am happy to sacrifice trips and activities that exclude him and instead am always looking for things we can do as partners.
I have lost the respect of a few friends who think I am dog crazy, while their dogs live in the yard and get little else but food and water....


In thinking about what Carmen posted about dogs being bred to be huggable and infantile I remembered reading a book called "Paws and Effects The Healing Power of Dogs" that has a few chapters about Bonnie Bergin and all her amazing work with Assistance Dogs. 

Bonnie did a lot of research on breeds and the group she founded"Canine Companions for Independence" settled on Golden’s, Labs and Golden Lab crosses for her programs. They do not used German Shepherds because they are protective and think on their own. She said the best Assistance Dogs are those who are childlike and ask “Mommy mommy what do you want me to do?” and not German Shepherds who say “Something has to be done and I am going to do it unless you are powerful enough to stop me.”
Even the Goldens and Labs they use are bred to be very soft, almost infantile.
It is not what I would want in a dog. I want a pup that will grow into a well adjusted thinking adult, a partner, not a child.

Here is some reading I found interesting.
http://www.ao.net/~holmanh/AKC-Gazette/akc-gazette.htm

Canine Ergonomics: The need for a SCIENCE of Working Dogs


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> Dirty little secret, everyone should not own a German Shepherd because what the dog reasonably needs for good development is not something they can or want to give.


No kidding. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that half the people who own a dog--of any breed--should not own a dog, period. Even some of the people who bring their dogs in for grooming! 

But then there are people who, I think, are savvy enough to have a dog, but do not have the time, resources, or ability to train a dog up to the highest levels or do a lot of doggie activities. They just want a family dog with a nice temperament, but one that will give them a measure of security as well. Usually for those people, I suggest they go to the pound and adopt a big black dog. Big black dogs are always the last to be adopted, and a big black dog barking behind a fence is probably going to deter most people with ill intentions. 

But people ask me specifically about GSDs because they know I have them; they want to know where they can get one like mine. Now, I hesitate to refer them to my breeder because these are not "working" homes, and they may not be able to give the dog a specific "job" to do, so the GSD's energy and drive level might not be satisified.

I don't know if I should direct them toward another breed that is solid nerved, social, yet protective, fairly sedate in the home, whose physical and mental exercise needs are easily met by daily walks, playing ball in the yard, etc. Some Mastiff or LGD breed, perhaps? I am sure *some* GSD could fit the bill, but it would probably be the exception rather than the rule.


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## phgsd

Yup I go through the same thing. I have a friend who I go hiking with sometimes, and I usually bring a couple of my dogs along. My friend was soo impressed with how well trained/stable/obedient my dogs are...she decided to go rescue a GSD. Her heart was in the right place...
She got a young-ish (maybe 12-18 months) female GSD from a kill shelter. Nice dog - good temperament, she definitely had some drive and lots of energy. Within a month, the dog went from being a dog she'd adopted to a dog she was "fostering." She did eventually find the dog a great home so it all turned out okay, but I think she finally realized how much goes into making a dog like a GSD such a "model citizen."


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## cliffson1

There are thousands and thousands of working line dogs that live in homes that are not part of a work scene or sport scene. Just plain dogs....I don't see the problem. I have half of a 9 pup Czech/West litter reserved right now and all are going to family homes and i have no doubt they will do well as the all the pups from previous litter from this pairs. A good GS, is a good family dog period.JMO


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## Lakl

cliffson1 said:


> There are thousands and thousands of working line dogs that live in homes that are not part of a work scene or sport scene. Just plain dogs....I don't see the problem. I have half of a 9 pup Czech/West litter reserved right now and all are going to family homes and i have no doubt they will do well as the all the pups from previous litter from this pairs. A good GS, is a good family dog period.JMO


When I was searching for my last pup, I had no preference to work or show. My concerns were with finding a reputable breeder, health, and temperament. In addition, I wanted a LSC sable male if I went the working line route. Despite how hard they are to come across, Carmen found that pup for me - a LSC working sable male from a trusted breeder/friend with an outstanding pedigree. I never told her this, but I came across a post of a member, don't remember who, who had a working line male and stated that if they did not strenuously exercise this dog at least 4-5 hours a day in addition to regular play around the house and yard, then this dog would demolish their home. I let this sway me against getting the pup. To this day I want to crack myself over the head a few times with a brick!!:headbang::headbang:


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## Emoore

Lakl said:


> I never told her this, but I came across a post of a member, don't remember who, who had a working line male and stated that if they did not strenuously exercise this dog at least 4-5 hours a day in addition to regular play around the house and yard, then this dog would demolish their home.


You know, I do a lot with my dogs because they're my hobby, and I know I talk a lot of trash about what a little hellion Kopper is, but I haven't had to crate him since before he was 5 months old. He's never torn up anything that wasn't his, and when I'm sick like now or when I get busy and can't do very much with him, he's still a good boy. He just goes and sits by the back door with his ball in his mouth eleventy billion times a day.


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## Jack's Dad

This is strictly my opinion but I believe that dogs (some) need to be taught to relax, and over exercising and constant stimulation only increases their hyperactivity.

I've seen post after post of people who have some problem and think they can exercise the problem away. All dogs need some exercise and others such as GS and BC's may need more but the truth is if these type dogs are healthy they could go all day. A lot longer than most humans.

Better to take some of those many extra hours of exercise and help your dog to learn to calm themselves.

I think a lot of this came from Cesar Milan and it's an area I disagree with him. If everyone needs to do a hour or two brisk pack walk evey morning and night to keep their dogs from being psycho then we are in trouble.

The vast majority of working people do not have that kind of time or maybe energy.

Exercise yes. Crazy amounts like Lakl mentioned above no. Will not make the dog calm or wear it out. 
Sorry about being off topic.


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## GSD07

When I didn't work I spent tons off time outdoors with my dog, hiking 5-6 miles every day, swimming, classes, tracking, and my dog loved it. Now I work and go to school full time, and the dog has adjusted to the new schedule in a matter of day. 

Working lines, didn't have to teach him to calm down because he was bred to adjust to any circumstances the life throws him into, I know better than take credit for that. If the situation changes again and I have time on my hands he'll be there to share it with me. That's the proper GSD temperament in my eyes, and not the one that requires constant catering and high maintenance.


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## carmspack

right on GSD07 -


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## Jack's Dad

GSD07 said:


> When I didn't work I spent tons off time outdoors with my dog, hiking 5-6 miles every day, swimming, classes, tracking, and my dog loved it. Now I work and go to school full time, and the dog has adjusted to the new schedule in a matter of day.
> 
> Working lines, didn't have to teach him to calm down because he was bred to adjust to any circumstances the life throws him into, I know better than take credit for that. If the situation changes again and I have time on my hands he'll be there to share it with me. That's the proper GSD temperament in my eyes, and not the one that requires constant catering and high maintenance.


I don't know if you were referring to my post but my dog does the same as yours. Didn't need to teach him.

I was referring to problem dogs that people seem to think they can exercise out of the problem. It obviously didn't work for the dogs Lakl was referring to in her last post.


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## onyx'girl

Not one of my 3 GSD's are destructive...
they are not crated when unsupervised and have an off switch. 
They are left alone for 5-6 hours a day on average, and together...I am lucky, I know!
Two of them are from unknown pedigree and I would not consider them 'well bred'. 

I think some people are so caught up in the "working line=crazy dog" and are afraid of them unjustly.


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## carmspack

Jack's Dad , I agree with you also . Dogs don't have jobs with value anymore, something to do for which they are appreciated . Even the simplest of things which connect them to the owner . 
Instead from early days their social experience is not normal , but caters to them , with good intentions to socialize them , but ends up in organized mayhem - like going to the fair or fun-park every day and then you wonder why they are hyper . 

Part of my breed decision is based on an animals ability to settle . When needed they should be ready to go , relentless, do or die . When not needed you should not even know that there is a dog in the house.
I don't want dogs being needy and batting at me for attention . I don't want dogs pacing around. I don't want dogs that are fretful and feral-like in their crates -- settle down. If I have 8 dogs out in the 12x12 kennels , I can have guest over , do demonstrations, have pups playing on the lawn chasing balls, have the lawn tractor going back and forth , the vet visit the horses etc. and you would not know there are dogs there once the initial "someone's coming" announcement has been made. 

Any dog not meeting these requirements are not bred from. Period.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Jack's Dad said:


> This is strictly my opinion but I believe that dogs (some) need to be taught to relax, and over exercising and constant stimulation only increases their hyperactivity.
> 
> I've seen post after post of people who have some problem and think they can exercise the problem away. All dogs need some exercise and others such as GS and BC's may need more but the truth is if these type dogs are healthy they could go all day. A lot longer than most humans.
> 
> Better to take some of those many extra hours of exercise and help your dog to learn to calm themselves.
> 
> I think a lot of this came from Cesar Milan and it's an area I disagree with him. If everyone needs to do a hour or two brisk pack walk evey morning and night to keep their dogs from being psycho then we are in trouble.
> 
> The vast majority of working people do not have that kind of time or maybe energy.
> 
> Exercise yes. Crazy amounts like Lakl mentioned above no. Will not make the dog calm or wear it out.
> Sorry about being off topic.


I actually agree with you on this point. I've either been extremely lucky to have dogs that have no trouble settling down around the house, no matter how off wild and crazy they are chasing balls at the park, or it's at least partly because I don't have the time and/or inclination to cater to my dogs constantly and I expect them to be able to hang out and entertain themselves some of the time. I think this is a skill that can be trained, like any other.


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## PaddyD

You teach a dog to relax by relaxing yourself. Granted that there is a certain amount of exercise that is beneficial for your dog but when you 'settle' so will your dog if he/she has had that beneficial amount. My dog usually crashes at any time during the day that there is no stimulus from the in-house environment. She is only a noodge in the evening when she has not had some physical outlet all day,which is rare. You have to give your dog some running time during the day, but it doesn't have to be a marathon.


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## GSDgirl03

I've had 4 different working lines so far. 2 of them were so over the top, from top bloodlines and both also very nervy in public even after tons of socialization, no matter how much you exercised them they still needed a job.. so if there wasn't anything to do, they would make something to do lol. The other 2 were more my type. They were solid in nerves, loved their ball, loved to work and play, but when thats done, can come in and lay by your feet like my showlines. Its my preference. I like a dog that can work on the field and come in to spend time with me.


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## onyx'girl

Would you be willing to share the pedigrees, GSDgirl03?


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## GSDgirl03

Of course! Just PM'ed!


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## Debbieg

Eli, my GSD before Benny was a working/ show line cross.
Hinterland's Eli - German Shepherd Dog

He had some issues but was not a "needy" dog. He loved keeping up with our 4 kids during the pre teen and teenage years. He would walk for miles and be ready for long games of fetch. When he was only two I got real sick with cancer and for 18 months he did little more than get up with me in the night many times when I was sick from treatments, walk real slow with me around the park when I was recovering from operations, and lay by my side. 

He was obviously much happier when we were active and doing stuff, and had bottom less energy, but his self appointed job was to be with me, whatever it meant. I don't know if dogs can be considered unselfish or if that is a human thing, but Eli, and my childhood GSD, lived to serve the person they were bonded too, whether that meant hours of physical exercise or laying by a bedside.


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## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> Jack's Dad , I agree with you also . Dogs don't have jobs with value anymore, something to do for which they are appreciated . Even the simplest of things which connect them to the owner .
> Instead from early days their social experience is not normal , but caters to them , with good intentions to socialize them , but ends up in organized mayhem - like going to the fair or fun-park every day and then you wonder why they are hyper .
> 
> Part of my breed decision is based on an animals ability to settle . *When needed they should be ready to go , relentless, do or die . When not needed you should not even know that there is a dog in the house.*
> I don't want dogs being needy and batting at me for attention . I don't want dogs pacing around. I don't want dogs that are fretful and feral-like in their crates -- settle down. If I have 8 dogs out in the 12x12 kennels , I can have guest over , do demonstrations, have pups playing on the lawn chasing balls, have the lawn tractor going back and forth , the vet visit the horses etc. and you would not know there are dogs there once the initial "someone's coming" announcement has been made.
> 
> Any dog not meeting these requirements are not bred from. Period.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs





Cassidy's Mom said:


> I actually agree with you on this point. I've either been extremely lucky to have dogs that have no trouble settling down around the house, no matter how off wild and crazy they are chasing balls at the park, or it's at least partly because I don't have the time and/or inclination to cater to my dogs constantly and I expect them to be able to hang out and entertain themselves some of the time. *I think this is a skill that can be trained, like any other.*


I think both of these statements are so true. I also think they apply to EVERY single dog on the planet, regardless of breed or type. 

I happen to think that the right owner can bring this out in almost any dog that is of reasonable nerve. I know I've yapped about my previous labrador, but so many times when I'm reading posts on here describing the ideal GSD, I think to myself "That's exactly what my labrador was like". And Carmen's bolded part is a perfect description of him. He could be in a dead sleep and all I had to do was say the word and he was ready to do anything, go anywhere at a moment's notice _that I requested of him. _He did not freak out or jump around, he was a serious, steady working dog. 

I've often wanted to reply to posts that tell people "If you can't handle a GSD get a lab", that a well-bred dog is a well-bred dog and it makes no difference in type--if you can't handle it, you can't handle it.


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## Freestep

GSDgirl03 said:


> Of course! Just PM'ed!


Share them with the rest of us too, if you would?


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## onyx'girl

I agree, I think seeing the different lines and how they are put together for the end result helps us understand better. 
I wish the dog that was edited out would have been left in this thread as well. How can others learn if they only have part of the puzzle?


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, I think seeing the different lines and how they are put together for the end result helps us understand better.
> I wish the dog that was edited out would have been left in this thread as well. How can others learn if they only have part of the puzzle?


Because a lot of breeders wouldn't appreciate it to "badmouth" their breeding program. It is one thing to talk about it from person to person and when it's an "open secret" but a totally different thing when it's black and white on the internet. 

When you want to use a dog for a breeding program you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER put anything bad about that dog on the internet and you NEVER, NEVER, EVER put anything bad out there about that dog, by yourself. I ruined Yukon myself. When I started talking about him on here an some other places, about what he went through and what kind of issues we worked through, I ruined him. Because people don't care if he was abused or not. All they know is that he's had these issues and that "something was wrong" with that dog, so they don't trust the dog. No matter what kennel name, potential and pedigree is behind that dog. 

You don't put it out there! Period! 

Why do you think all the breeders on this forum NEVER talk about any kind or form of issues their dogs have? It's all about how great and good those dogs are or admit to having one or two dogs in the program that wasn't as solid as others. 

I've been around breeders long enough to know that there is NO SUCH THING as never having HD/ED, never having a dog that isn't as solid as the others. You can't always produce the winners. It's just not happening. You've got four or five dogs, throughout many many many years of breeding that will go into history, all the others may be good but just not that kind of dog material that makes breeding history.
It's up to the breeders standard what he keeps and what is sold. What may not be good enough for the breeder might be another handlers BEST DOG EVER! Even though the dog didn't live up to the breeders standard. 

Also, there is ALWAYS one or two dogs throughout ten or twenty years, that doesn't have the solid kind of nerves as the others. It happens. No breeder can tell me that he never, ever had a dog in a litter that wasn't nervy or skittish and at this point, I don't care if I step on any toes or may rattle the cage... it's just as much BS as breeders saying that they never had a single case of HD/Ed program. No breeder can tell me that they've never had a single case of HD in 30 years of breeding or not a single case where they didn't have a runt in the litter that didn't have the nerve strength, healthy bone structure and or the same potential as the others. Every breeding program starts out somewhere and it's a loooong very long progress to get to the point where you are so successful that it goes word by mouth. In between those breeders produce a lot of crap. That's okay, everybody does because that is how they learn from their mistakes and evolve. However, it's also what a lot of breeder tend to forget about and don't necessarily talk about. Because no breeder can afford to tell you the truth about all the crap they've produced until they really figured it out. And even then they have litters that just don't turn out the way they should because you can't control nature. At least not yet. 

The point is, breeders won't talk bad about their own programs.


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## onyx'girl

This was about a dog, who was used in several kennels many years ago. Not about one particular breeder.


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> This was about a dog, who was used in several kennels. Not about one particular breeder.


It's not about one particular breeder, it's about the majority of breeders that use that kind of dogs.


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## onyx'girl

> Well, knowing now who the dog is (not a current stud, rather one who's been gone a while but still has frozen semen occasionally used) this was a type of dog for a different time and place and one who reflected the needs of the people at that time. Needs for which this sort of temperament was perfectly acceptable and in many cases desireable. Breed standard had little to do with it frankly. The need for a somewhat specialized dog for actual, true work, trumped that. They never were intended to be pets, or a balanced dog capable of work and pet. That never crossed anyone's mind. An entirely different dog was needed, and thus bred for. It is a type not frequently needed or wanted today. And it is certainly not a type that is intentionally being bred for by all but a few specializing in a similar type of dog for a similar type of work, and those few would be marketing their dogs for a similar function, not family pets.


This quote is telling and IMO not bashing the stud whatsoever. It tells it like it was...and how times have changed so that type is no longer wanted in most situations.


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## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> This was about a dog, who was used in several kennels many years ago. Not about one particular breeder.


No, this dog is still being used today. I was told they have enough frozen semen to produce 5 more litters, and I don't want any of my limited knowledge to sway people's thoughts towards this particular dog or the kennel still breeding him. Especially since there are very conflicting opinions on what he produces...

I think it is enough to simply discuss the lines and what a buyer, companion or sport, should be able to expect from a good breeder producing good dogs that fit not only the working standard, but GSD standard as well.


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## Mrs.K

Then it must have been a stud that was solely used in the US since it's talking about frozen semen, because using frozen semen is not allowed in Germany.


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## Lakl

onyx'girl said:


> This quote is telling and IMO not bashing the stud whatsoever. It tells it like it was...and how times have changed so that type is no longer wanted in most situations.


But others have stated different opinions on what this dog has produced based on what they've seen...


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## lhczth

Germany may not allow AI, but other countries do AND if a male was imported later in life he could have been collected at that point. His frozen semen may not be used in Germany, but it can be used elsewhere and not just the USA. 

Anyhow, the dog in question is still producing puppies so best to not talk about him specifically.


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## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> Germany may not allow AI, but other countries do AND if a male was imported later in life he could have been collected at that point. His frozen semen may not be used in Germany, but it can be used elsewhere and not just the USA.
> 
> Anyhow, the dog in question is still producing puppies so best to not talk about him specifically.


Agreed.


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## JakodaCD OA

Knowing the dog in question (not personally ),,honestly call me crazy, but I would consider a puppy out of him IF he had been bred to the right female, and I had someone with ALOT of knowledge (like cliff) that could tell me what I could expect and most likely pick that puppy for me..I like a challenge


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## onyx'girl

As far as the "conflicting opinions", it goes back to what a person wants in a dog, if it isn't of interest to you, go to another breeder. 
I like a challenge too, as long as it is balanced!


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## carmspack

there is the problem , a lot of dogs being bred without knowledge about "what" they are , and who to breed them too correctly. This is in every category . See it a lot in sporty litters , where there are a laundry list of dogs , high time winners , but the accumulative effect is a dog so out of balance


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## lhczth

That just goes along with what people have been trying to point out, the goal of a breeder should be to always strive for balance.


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## Lakl

carmspack said:


> there is the problem , a lot of dogs being bred without knowledge about "what" they are , and who to breed them too correctly. This is in every category . See it a lot in sporty litters , where there are a laundry list of dogs , high time winners , but the accumulative effect is a dog so out of balance


So here is my main question. If you were in my shoes and interviewing perspective breeders, what are the appropriate questions to ask? I haven't talked to a lot of working line breeders, but I did talk to this particular breeder. When asked what type of temperament was expected from the two litters planned, the answers were rather vague and simplified. One litter was described as "a good match for an active family companion" and the other as, "these pups should be very civil". If you were me, what would be the answers that tell you this breeder knows what they are doing?


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## onyx'girl

I would look at what the breeder has produced in the past and that would give me an idea about their program and achievements. Then I would know whether or not what they are breeding is what I'd want to have live with me for the next decade+. 
It isn't that hard to decipher which breeders to go with when you know what you want for your next companion. The hard part is timing and then waiting. Unless you go with a commercial kennel of course, waiting would probably be just a click away.


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## GSD07

What was wrong with the answers? The litters were planned with these goals in mind, so the breeder did their best to match the dogs in order to fulfill their hopes. I'm sure they would tell you more if the pups were 6 weeks old already.


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## Lakl

GSD07 said:


> What was wrong with the answers? The litters were planned with these goals in mind, so the breeder did their best to match the dogs in order to fulfill their hopes. I'm sure they would tell you more if the pups were 6 weeks old already.


That's what I'm asking. Would these answers be suffice for you? My pup, I was told would also be a great family companion, but I soon found out, that's it and that's all. Even if he didn't have his issues, he doesn't have the drive to do much else. My female, same thing, but doesn't have the temperament to do much else except be a companion. I guess that's what I'm getting at.


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## cliffson1

A puppy is a crapshoot....pretty much everybody agrees on that, that's why a lot of top show and sport people but older dogs....my point is what do people think that crapshoot means? When I import a puppy from overseas and the puppy doesn't turn out the hips that I would like or even the HIPS that both parents had; I don't get upset at the breeder, I just remember that a puppy is a crapshoot and you try to stack the deck in your favor but all breeders at some time will produce nervy and dysplastic dogs. period. you can make it so that it is very infrequent, but pups are crapshoots and the breeder can't always tell what the pup will be when it leaves. This is because nuture and nature sometimes kick in at 3 to 6 months and the pup is already gone. I have actually gone back to the breeder and the stud that gave me a pup that had less than good singular traits....why....because the breeder is knowledgable and has given me many more good dogs than that one, and the stud produces good overall traits and I realize that often a combination or just a singular puppy didn't click. Cant throw the baby out with the bathwater. JMO


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## Mrs.K

My father always says: When buying a puppy, you buy hope! 
You are right, you never know how the pup turns out. Judge is the best example. It's not the breeders fault what happened, it was a stupid accident. I hoped he was going to be as good or even better than his sister and now he can't work at all which is why I decided to go for Nala. She's already health tested and has HD/ED normal. She's ready to work. 

The Mal pup.. I am in the process of selling him in Germany. I saw some tendencies that I didn't like on some of the videos I received. He's five months old now and even on the videos, she regularly sends videos from him, the good, the bad and the ugly and with the ugly I made the decision to sell him, even if I make a loss, I rather cut my losses instead of holding onto a dog that already shows tendencies of a behavior that I don't want and need. And before anyone says anything about it, it's my decision. If I'd ship him over I'd have to invest all my time into a dog that already has a nerve issue and that would take the time away from the two dogs I am constantly working. Nope, not going to happen. Sometimes you need to trust your gut, make a decision and just cut your losses. 



cliffson1 said:


> A puppy is a crapshoot....pretty much everybody agrees on that, that's why a lot of top show and sport people but older dogs....my point is what do people think that crapshoot means? When I import a puppy from overseas and the puppy doesn't turn out the hips that I would like or even the HIPS that both parents had; I don't get upset at the breeder, I just remember that a puppy is a crapshoot and you try to stack the deck in your favor but all breeders at some time will produce nervy and dysplastic dogs. period. you can make it so that it is very infrequent, but pups are crapshoots and the breeder can't always tell what the pup will be when it leaves. This is because nuture and nature sometimes kick in at 3 to 6 months and the pup is already gone. I have actually gone back to the breeder and the stud that gave me a pup that had less than good singular traits....why....because the breeder is knowledgable and has given me many more good dogs than that one, and the stud produces good overall traits and I realize that often a combination or just a singular puppy didn't click. Cant throw the baby out with the bathwater. JMO


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## Lakl

cliffson1 said:


> A puppy is a crapshoot....pretty much everybody agrees on that, that's why a lot of top show and sport people but older dogs....my point is what do people think that crapshoot means? When I import a puppy from overseas and the puppy doesn't turn out the hips that I would like or even the HIPS that both parents had; I don't get upset at the breeder, I just remember that a puppy is a crapshoot and you try to stack the deck in your favor but all breeders at some time will produce nervy and dysplastic dogs. period. you can make it so that it is very infrequent, but pups are crapshoots and the breeder can't always tell what the pup will be when it leaves. This is because nuture and nature sometimes kick in at 3 to 6 months and the pup is already gone. I have actually gone back to the breeder and the stud that gave me a pup that had less than good singular traits....why....because the breeder is knowledgable and has given me many more good dogs than that one, and the stud produces good overall traits and I realize that often a combination or just a singular puppy didn't click. Cant throw the baby out with the bathwater. JMO


This is very true, but I have a question for you, Cliff and Carmen:

In my *specific* situation with my pup. I knew next to nothing about structure, movement, and conformation, but early on saw things that were questionable. I consulted both of you with my concerns, with Carm around 14 wks and with Cliff around 16 wks and you both saw the same things in my pup and they were pretty disturbing, and led me to voice these concerns to my breeder. My question is, if these things were so evident to both of you with many years of experience in the breed just by looking at a couple pics for me, should these things have been evident to my breeder at 8 weeks who actually had the pup and could see his structure and movement and lack of drive on a daily basis? We're talking 6 weeks from the point I got him, to the point where even I, knowing nothing, could see that something wasn't right?

This is just a thought that passed through my mind in the shower this morning as I was thinking about this thread...


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, if you were abel to see it (without any experience) than maybe your breeder should have seen it too.


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## cliffson1

I constantly reiterate that their are many "reputable bredders" out there,(because of the new age definition of "reputable), that really don't know Jack about the breed, pedigrees, and real temperament. They know nothing of breeding based on a combination, they don't even know certain signs that experience teaches leads to certain things. Breeding is an art, and in an art, experience trumps academia or titles and certs. I know people don't like to hear that because we are a fast food society. That's why pedigree reading is so popular, but if you haven't been out there and worked and trained and SEEN many of these descendants either in shows or trials, your pedigree reading is severely limited. This applies to many breeders of today, they have all the right paper work on their dogs but really don't know Jack! I don't know your breeder Lakl, but I hear some of the notions put forth by some breeders on the internet and I cringe.....that's why if you are a novice it is better to trust an accomplished person to get a dog for you than you yourself. Back in the day you could go and pick a nice pup out of a litter, but today things are much more complicated and fragmented.JMO


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> I don't know your breeder Lakl, but I hear some of the notions put forth by some breeders on the internet and I cringe.....that's why if you are a novice it is better to trust an accomplished person to get a dog for you than you yourself.


So does that mean "Yes, Lakl, your breeder should have seen these things?"


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## cliffson1

I said I didn't know her breeder, I said that some things can be seen at 8 weeks and some things take 3 to 6 months because of nature/nuture. Figure it out.


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## carmspack

no the breeder would not have seen these things because they are the norm to them (gender neutral , I don't know who they are).

Lakl you are asking and so I will answer very honestly. When you posted that picture of the pup you were getting on the forum , who is not from the breeder that I had referred you to , I was surprized - and remember distinctly saying "oh no" because I saw the problems while every one else was "cute puppying" (which he is). I believe the picture was at 4 or 5 weeks of age, a fuzzy , heavy pup , already down at the pasterns and not standing up at the rear . Having a look at the pedigree , then , I said if you were going to get the pup at least get a good guarantee for hips . It had high risk written all over it. I saw it . The working drive would not be there because it is not there , and first impression of the dog that "spark" was not there. 
If I recall you questionedon the forum why the dog was wanting to lay around so much . 
The dog is soooo lucky to have you though. I am glad for you and him that there is an improvement to his quality of life .
Go back to the "iceberg breeders" and you can see all the reasons why the cards were stacked the way they were. 
Saw it . Said it. 
Carmen


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## Lakl

carmspack said:


> no the breeder would not have seen these things because they are the norm to them (gender neutral , I don't know who they are).
> 
> Lakl you are asking and so I will answer very honestly. When you posted that picture of the pup you were getting on the forum , who is not from the breeder that I had referred you to , I was surprized - and remember distinctly saying "oh no" because I saw the problems while every one else was "cute puppying" (which he is). I believe the picture was at 4 or 5 weeks of age, a fuzzy , heavy pup , already down at the pasterns and not standing up at the rear . Having a look at the pedigree , then , I said if you were going to get the pup at least get a good guarantee for hips . It had high risk written all over it. I saw it . The working drive would not be there because it is not there , and first impression of the dog that "spark" was not there.
> If I recall you questionedon the forum why the dog was wanting to lay around so much .
> The dog is soooo lucky to have you though. I am glad for you and him that there is an improvement to his quality of life .
> Go back to the "iceberg breeders" and you can see all the reasons why the cards were stacked the way they were.
> Saw it . Said it.
> Carmen


You recall correctly, and I remember trying to tell myself that it was just because he was so young and needed all that puppy rest, even though my first pup NEVER lay around that much. I am living it and learning everyday! My hope is that as long as I continue to ask questions and absorb info and rely on the experience of those more knowledgeable than me, that I won't be as silly the next time around!

This discussion just kinda brought all those things back to me, and just solidified what I suspected all along. Doesn't change anything, but at least I know!


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## JakodaCD OA

I have to say, I think we are so lucky to have some experienced breeders here (and cliff comes to mind when I say this), that WE can ask their opinions of a pedigree/a dog/ a mating test, and know they can pretty much peg them.

I know I've asked cliff a few times about certain mating tests, and I have no problem believing what he's telling me, and honestly I have no problem if he said "don't do it" I wouldn't do it, just as if he said "go for it , your probably going to get this xxx" I would go for it..

Ya know every dang puppy I see, is cute to a fault, but at this stage in the game, and I guess it's because I've been lucky to have/had alot of great dogs in my life, that I now try to select with my 'brain' vs "he's cute, or physical attributes or I wanna dog out of XXX"..

I think to many don't really 'think' or know what's behind that cute furball, and get caught up in the 'cute factor', or the fad color of the time, or I wanna a dog out xx.

Again, I think having someone you trust to 'know' , is always going to stack the deck in a buyer's favor..

ok off my soapbox, I'm still waiting for cliff to publish that book


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## RubyTuesday

I like puppies a lot more than babies & a bit less than kittens. In this I'm fortunate b/c the little ones simply don't resonate with me as they do so many. Hence, it's easy to look at dogs & bitches vs cute puppies. It's not a virtue, or even wisdom...Much like Jessica Rabbit, for whatever reason I'm just made that way.

Yes, I look forward to Cliff's book, as well.


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## cliffson1

I could never write a book(I appreciate the thought), because I deal way too much in common sense and I see so little of this in the breed anymore.
I would have a chapter on OWNERS, that wouldn't paint a very flattering picture for many that reside in the states, down under, and UK. 
I go to the puppy and training sections, and see countless owners that are devoid of common sense in raising a dog. People applying human thought processes to their justification of what they did:crazy:, people giving algebra advice on problems that only require 101 math application. All of this has helped turn this breed into something that is far different from what it is supposed to be. Some lines can only be owned by experienced owners, while other lines must be handled with kid gloves or the dog will be depressed:crazy:. 
No, I am not the one to write a book, I don't even like or believe in lines for specific purposes in the breed. Utility is a long forgotten word in this breed and its a shame. And finally, I would also lash out at the sniveling, powderpuff owners that breeders are catering to that has robbed the breed of its vitality and internal fortitude. 
Lastly, I would lament the popularity of the breed that has allowed everyone to think they have a right to have a German Shepherd that fits their lifestyle and values. 
Nope, besides maybe not possessing the knowledge, I don't possess the tact or will to write what people want to hear in a GS book.


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## Mrs.K

yeah, one thing I have noticed is that there is absolutely no common sense in dog owning anymore and I have no idea how that is even possible. 

And most of the time, things are blown so far out of proportion that all you can do is to shake your head....like 13 week old aggressive puppies....


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## marshies

While I agree that not everyone should have a german shepherd puppy that's tailored to their needs and lifestyle, I do think new owners should get some slack, mainly because I'm a new owner. 

If you saw how I raise Amaretto, you would probably all shake your head. Is there common sense, in the forum sense? Probably not. And it's not for my lack of wanting. I didn't grow up with a dog, so everything I do with her is based on theoretical knowledge. Common sense to me is only human common sense. I do try to read and understand a canine thinking process and learning process, but it's hard to know how to behave with dogs when you've never had them before. So when I ask for advice, the advice needs to come in formulaic and specific terms. Eg. correct her with this much force, with the collar 2 CM away from the base of her ears. I do enroll her in class, but my class is less behaviours, and more socialization and tricks. Teaching tricks is fun, it can work with common sense. Teaching behaviors is hard...it doesn't work with common sense.

I completely understand how the 13 week aggressive puppy person feels. I thought Amaretto HATED HATED me when she first came home. Yes, you hear about the landshark phase, but you don't think this is what it looks like in application when your dog is the one that's biting your pant legs oblivious to the outside world with their "crazy eyes".

...I guess my point is, YES, some people absolutely SHOULD not own GSDs. Some others, like me, just sound retarded because of our inexperience.


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## ponyfarm

marshies said:


> While I agree that not everyone should have a german shepherd puppy that's tailored to their needs and lifestyle, I do think new owners should get some slack, mainly because I'm a new owner.
> 
> If you saw how I raise Amaretto, you would probably all shake your head. Is there common sense, in the forum sense? Probably not. And it's not for my lack of wanting. I didn't grow up with a dog, so everything I do with her is based on theoretical knowledge. Common sense to me is only human common sense. I do try to read and understand a canine thinking process and learning process, but it's hard to know how to behave with dogs when you've never had them before. So when I ask for advice, the advice needs to come in formulaic and specific terms. Eg. correct her with this much force, with the collar 2 CM away from the base of her ears. I do enroll her in class, but my class is less behaviours, and more socialization and tricks. Teaching tricks is fun, it can work with common sense. Teaching behaviors is hard...it doesn't work with common sense.
> 
> I completely understand how the 13 week aggressive puppy person feels. I thought Amaretto HATED HATED me when she first came home. Yes, you hear about the landshark phase, but you don't think this is what it looks like in application when your dog is the one that's biting your pant legs oblivious to the outside world with their "crazy eyes".
> 
> ...I guess my point is, YES, some people absolutely SHOULD not own GSDs. Some others, like me, just sound retarded because of our inexperience.


Good for you for trying!! You are doing the best you can!! 
Everything is harder to learn as an adult. A skill learned as a kid becomes second nature.

I learned this the hard way trying to learn to ski! All the little kids learned in about five minutes. Two days later I was still falling down, losing my skis and literally getting stuck in snowbanks. I feel your pain!!


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## Lakl

marshies said:


> While I agree that not everyone should have a german shepherd puppy that's tailored to their needs and lifestyle, I do think new owners should get some slack, mainly because I'm a new owner.
> 
> If you saw how I raise Amaretto, you would probably all shake your head. Is there common sense, in the forum sense? Probably not. And it's not for my lack of wanting. I didn't grow up with a dog, so everything I do with her is based on theoretical knowledge. Common sense to me is only human common sense. I do try to read and understand a canine thinking process and learning process, but it's hard to know how to behave with dogs when you've never had them before. So when I ask for advice, the advice needs to come in formulaic and specific terms. Eg. correct her with this much force, with the collar 2 CM away from the base of her ears. I do enroll her in class, but my class is less behaviours, and more socialization and tricks. Teaching tricks is fun, it can work with common sense. Teaching behaviors is hard...it doesn't work with common sense.
> 
> I completely understand how the 13 week aggressive puppy person feels. I thought Amaretto HATED HATED me when she first came home. Yes, you hear about the landshark phase, but you don't think this is what it looks like in application when your dog is the one that's biting your pant legs oblivious to the outside world with their "crazy eyes".
> 
> ...I guess my point is, YES, some people absolutely SHOULD not own GSDs. Some others, like me, just sound retarded because of our inexperience.


Nice post, Marshies, and I can totally relate. I have the habit of asking A LOT of questions, and I like to get differing opinions to take in different viewpoints and then weigh the information based on what I'm seeing. At the same time, I often feel like I come off as an idiot because I do not carry the same knowledge or background others do. In the real world I'm an analyst, so I review and question data repeatedly from different angles to come to a conclusion, and often find myself applying this same logic to different areas in my life. I think that I make the people I repeatedly question become frustrated with me and my thought process, but I can't help being an openly objective type person. I think that as long as someone is willing to keep an open mind, learn, and absorb information, then there are no dumb questions. At least that's what someone told me.

As far as the breed itself, the original standards established for the breed, and the road it's taken as far as breeders and owners is something that has happened with ALL breeds of dogs since the beginning of time and is inevitable. Man will always try to shape dogs into what their ideals consist of regardless of its original defined purpose, and everyone always has conflicting opinions of what is an ideal dog. In the past couple weeks I've spoken to 3 highly recommended breeders with more than 30 years experience in the breed to try and get a feel on the different working lines and their characteristics. Not one of them coincided with the other on what constitutes , in their opinion, a well bred GSD as far as lines go, and each were very passionate and knowledgeable about the breed. So I think this all plays back to that. There will never be a uniformed opinion on this breed and the direction it needs to go, so there will never be a uniformed dog that novice owners can properly prepare themselves for without actually ever owning one. Just the opinion of a novice pet owner...


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## marshies

Lakl said:


> Nice post, Marshies, and I can totally relate. I have the habit of asking A LOT of questions, and I like to get differing opinions to take in different viewpoints and then weigh the information based on what I'm seeing. At the same time, I often feel like I come off as an idiot because I do not carry the same knowledge or background others do. In the real world I'm an analyst, so I review and question data repeatedly from different angles to come to a conclusion, and often find myself applying this same logic to different areas in my life. I think that I make the people I repeatedly question become frustrated with me and my thought process, but I can't help being an openly objective type person. I think that as long as someone is willing to keep an open mind, learn, and absorb information, then there are no dumb questions. At least that's what someone told me.
> 
> As far as the breed itself, the original standards established for the breed, and the road it's taken as far as breeders and owners is something that has happened with ALL breeds of dogs since the beginning of time and is inevitable. Man will always try to shape dogs into what their ideals consist of regardless of its original defined purpose, and everyone always has conflicting opinions of what is an ideal dog. In the past couple weeks I've spoken to 3 highly recommended breeders with more than 30 years experience in the breed to try and get a feel on the different working lines and their characteristics. Not one of them coincided with the other on what constitutes , in their opinion, a well bred GSD as far as lines go, and each were very passionate and knowledgeable about the breed. So I think this all plays back to that. There will never be a uniformed opinion on this breed and the direction it needs to go, so there will never be a uniformed dog that novice owners can properly prepare themselves for without actually ever owning one. Just the opinion of a novice pet owner...


I, too, am a fan of data collection. Commonality: I'm going to start at an auditing firm in the fall.


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## Lakl

marshies said:


> I, too, am a fan of data collection. Commonality: I'm going to start at an auditing firm in the fall.



I just noticed you're siggy! Too funny! Puppup is what I like to call my lil boy!


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## doggs

*good by nature*

never buy that. dogs in general arnt bad most wl, sl, dogs are an extension of there owners. if you cage a dog and don't provide loving environment you can expect an aggressive dog. however a dog that is loved, trained, exercised, physical and mentally on a reg. will almost certainly be a stellar animal. shepherds unless inbred are very smart and eager to please most if treated well will die for there owners and family. ** content not allowed. Removed by ADMIN**


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