# Not so friendly to strangers



## Kevin W

Went out for a walk with my fiance and daughter a couple days ago and came accross a GSD female and owner. Looked like they were playing fetch in an open field and we were walking on the sidewalk. Me being a GSD lover I ask the owner if we could meet her. Kindly, she said "no" and I had kind of a sad/dumbfounded look on my face. She explained she's very protective of her owner and not really nice at all to anyone else. Just wondering what type of training or lack thereof would explain this type of behavior? Was it the lack of socialization? I would like to know because in the future I don't want to raise my dog to be so protective that he would attack someone that is harmless.


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## onyx'girl

My females are the same way...genetics/nerves are the reason for their issues. Socializing goes so far, but the dogs make-up is the reason most often for dogs being "protective" it is usually fear based.... and they won't attack but certainly may growl, hackle and warn that they are over their threshold when people are in their bubble.

My male is of good nerve, he'll let people approach without reacting, but really isn't into petting unless he is ok with you. He figures it out pretty quick who he is ok with and who he doesn't want invading his being. I read his body language and let the person know if he isn't into being petted. Most often he gets wiggly happy leaning on the person for more, but now and then, he is suspicious.


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## codmaster

Might be that the owner just doesn't want their dog to be petted by strangers. there are a lot of owners who feel that way sometimes because their dog is not friendly to strangers, sometimes because they have some mistaken idea that being frienly with friendly strangers will somehow make them less protective if the need ever arises (it won't) and sometimes maybe the owners just are not so friendly to strangers themselves.


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## selzer

Sometimes it is genetics.
Sometimes it is lack of socialization.
Sometimes it is poor leadership.

Lack of training -- indirectly, in that training helps to build a bond of trust between the dog and the owners, and builds the confidence of the dog. So it can often help, but even without a training a dog should be approachable, if socialized, not weak nervesm, and not lacking in leadership. 

A dog that does not have confidence, trust in its owners does not have any direction. They do not look to their owner to see if everything is kool, because he does not trust his owners as a leader. 

I think it is very likely that the lady is being honest with you, their dog is too protective of them to have you come and meet her. She is probably being protective so that she does not get sued or does not have to put the dog down if the dog bites you.


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## Kevin W

codmaster said:


> Might be that the owner just doesn't want their dog to be petted by strangers. there are a lot of owners who feel that way sometimes because their dog is not friendly to strangers, sometimes because they have some mistaken idea that being frienly with friendly strangers will somehow make them less protective if the need ever arises (it won't) and sometimes maybe the owners just are not so friendly to strangers themselves.


Yeah I thought that too, but she was genuinely sorry that we couldn't come over to meet her because she could attack. We live in a pretty nice neighborhood the field is surrounded by houses and parks with people playing all over the place. Wouldn't it be risky having a dog like that free off the leash?


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## Kevin W

selzer said:


> Sometimes it is genetics.
> Sometimes it is lack of socialization.
> Sometimes it is poor leadership.
> 
> Lack of training -- indirectly, in that training helps to build a bond of trust between the dog and the owners, and builds the confidence of the dog. So it can often help, but even without a training a dog should be approachable, if socialized, not weak nervesm, and not lacking in leadership.
> 
> A dog that does not have confidence, trust in its owners does not have any direction. They do not look to their owner to see if everything is kool, because he does not trust his owners as a leader.
> 
> I think it is very likely that the lady is being honest with you, their dog is too protective of them to have you come and meet her. She is probably being protective so that she does not get sued or does not have to put the dog down if the dog bites you.


That makes sense now. Thank you very much. I just didn't know if it was bad leadership, training, just how she is or a combination of those.


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## Germanshepherdlova

codmaster said:


> Might be that the owner just doesn't want their dog to be petted by strangers. there are a lot of owners who feel that way sometimes because their dog is not friendly to strangers, sometimes because they have some mistaken idea that being frienly with friendly strangers will somehow make them less protective if the need ever arises (it won't) and sometimes maybe the owners just are not so friendly to strangers themselves.


I know an owner like that, doesn't want anyone to pet their dog because he thinks it will make his dog less protective if the need should arise.


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## Kevin W

What's the best thing to do to avoid this behavior? To me this type of behavior would be a big liability and I wouldn't want to be percieved as being "the guy with the big nasty dog".


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## Kevin W

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I know an owner like that, doesn't want anyone to pet their dog because he thinks it will make his dog less protective if the need should arise.


That makes me sick.


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## Elaine

Kevin W said:


> What's the best thing to do to avoid this behavior? To me this type of behavior would be a big liability and I wouldn't want to be percieved as being "the guy with the big nasty dog".


Start with a good breeder, have them pick out a stable out-going pup, socialize the snot out of him from day one, provide him with the exercise he needs, and train him to a higher level.


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## Whiteshepherds

Kevin W said:


> What's the best thing to do to avoid this behavior? To me this type of behavior would be a big liability and I wouldn't want to be percieved as being "the guy with the big nasty dog".


I'm surprised doggiedad hasn't chimed in. 

He'd say...Socialize, socialize, socialize, train, train, train!! (and he'd be right!) 

Oh, and get a dog with a good temperament to start with.


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## CarrieJ

My dog isn't too hot with strangers petting her, but I always encourage people to meet her. I just make her sit and chat with the people first and have them ignore her for a few minutes. Then she'll be fine. She does good at the county hospital where we walk.

However, if I'm walking in a busy shopping center...she's a bit more nervous or high strung so I watch her and her comfort levels. If she is getting stressed...then no...definitely no "hugging" from strangers.
We will actually stop and she does a down stay and I kick it on a bench.

I couldn't imagine not letting people meet her.

ETA: I know she doesn't have the best temprament but early and frequent socialization has really helped in that department. Puppy socials before quarenteen ended and dog parks later. 
And, different environments...shopping centers, the hospital, Friday night in the neighboor hood...different times, places, weather, etc.


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## blehmannwa

I take my five month old out for an hour every day and we meet everyone that we can. We go to the park, we lurk outside the library, we go to the mall. We practice friendly greetings every day. My boy is also more confident when he knows the rules--when people ask him for a high five, a shake or a down before greeting. He's still a pup so he still will spook when startled--by a tiny little old lady in a giant raincoat and hood for instance.


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## debbiebrown

not all gsd's are friendly to strangers, some are alot more suspicious than others.......and all the socialization in the world won't change that......with my male who is like that if a stranger were to ask if they could pat him i would say no......because he doesn't enjoy it from strangers, so why do it? he's been taught to tolerate strangers and behave himself when they are around, he can sit a few feet from them and he's fine while i talk to them, if he shows interest in smelling them and shows he's comfortable after a few minutes they can give him a treat, but no touching.......i have condioned him to being touched by people he knows and he's ok with a short pat under his chin or his side, etc........unfortunately some people don't understand why a dog doesn't like to be touched by strangers, i know its human nature to want to pat a dog but people have to respect the fact that some gsd's are not goldens..........genetically, sometimes thats the way it is.......


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## MaggieRoseLee

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *I know an owner like that, doesn't want anyone to pet their dog because he thinks it will make his dog less protective if the need should arise*.





Kevin W said:


> That makes me sick.


 
I know people like these too and it makes me *ANGRY*.

What they do to their puppies with a lack of training and socialization makes those 'nightmare' adult dogs that have to live their lives enprisoned in their homes/yard/chain due to the fact you can't trust the poor FEAR aggressive dog around ANYONE!

Of course these are also some of the dogs that then end up in a shelter and so hard to place that some are just put down.


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## JakodaCD OA

you might find this thread an interesting read
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...if-i-grabbed-your-face-what-would-you-do.html

While I do agree, that some dogs may not be 'pet-able" because of weak nerves, lack of socialization, genetics,/training there are some that just don't want to interact with people who are strangers. 

I have one of those. She's been socialized up the wazoo, she goes everywhere with me, all kinds of public events, minds her own business, just prefers to not be 'fawned' over by strangers in public. Sure you can approach her, speak to her, give her a treat, otherwise she prefers you left her alone. 

I admit I don't let kids near her, she is not fond of small kids. 

I appreciate it when people ASK first if they can 'pet' her, and thank them and say no. She's never 'bit' anyone nor really tried to, she just isn't a social dog out in public.

At home, she is very social with anyone who comes thru the door. 

I'm fine with it, I always say she is what she is, respect it. I didn't get her to be a golden retriever who is in love with anyone that crosses her path. 

She does tend to be rather possessive of me in public, I won't say protective, she's never been in a situation where she's been put to that test so who knows what she'd do? All I know is, I love this girl, she's a great dog who can go anywhere and behave herself, be obedient and enjoy life.


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## Zisso

My girl is not always nice to strangers. I got her when she was 16mo old and have no history on her previous life, so can only imagine what took place prior to adopting her. She was 16 months old then, and is now 3 years old.

I am working to socialize her but I am cautious when she meets people. I try to chat with someone first to get a feel for that person, and to make them aware of her personality. I do not allow kids to run up to her because that is definitely one of her triggers to nip. I carefully watch her body language when she does meet someone new. I recently implemented the use of a Gentle Leader/Halti and that seems to calm her in a way that makes meeting people less stressful and we have had great success. Lately she has been to Home Depot and Petsmart and has met several people, met a Pit Bull puppy that she was very polite to and even took treats from the cashier at Petsmart, all without attempting to nip at anyone, plus she met the neighbor guy. It takes a lot of work and patience but it is important to me that she can cope with the real world. 

I would be disappointed if someone denied their dog the opportunity to meet new people because it can be so detrimental to their well being, being so under socialized. It is a shame that this lady was not willing to try.


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## LaRen616

JakodaCD OA said:


> you might find this thread an interesting read
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...if-i-grabbed-your-face-what-would-you-do.html
> 
> While I do agree, that some dogs may not be 'pet-able" because of weak nerves, lack of socialization, genetics,/training there are some that just don't want to interact with people who are strangers.
> 
> I have one of those. She's been socialized up the wazoo, she goes everywhere with me, all kinds of public events, minds her own business, just prefers to not be 'fawned' over by strangers in public. Sure you can approach her, speak to her, give her a treat, otherwise she prefers you left her alone.
> 
> I admit I don't let kids near her, she is not fond of small kids.
> 
> I appreciate it when people ASK first if they can 'pet' her, and thank them and say no. She's never 'bit' anyone nor really tried to, she just isn't a social dog out in public.
> 
> At home, she is very social with anyone who comes thru the door.
> 
> I'm fine with it, I always say she is what she is, respect it. I didn't get her to be a golden retriever who is in love with anyone that crosses her path.
> 
> She does tend to be rather possessive of me in public, I won't say protective, she's never been in a situation where she's been put to that test so who knows what she'd do? All I know is, I love this girl, she's a great dog who can go anywhere and behave herself, be obedient and enjoy life.


:thumbup:


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## GSDGirl5472

I don't understand why this discussion has turned into it being an issue with training. My dog was very nervous with strangers, but also very obedient. If the owner knows that the dog does not like strangers, she is perfectly well within her right to decline the request to pet the dog. In MHOP, she was probably trying to make the safe decision - better the stranger be dumbfounded by the declined request than be dumbfounded if the dog bit him! Geesh.


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## LaRen616

GSDGirl5472 said:


> *If the owner knows that the dog does not like strangers*, she is perfectly well within her right to decline the request to pet the dog. In MHOP, *she was probably trying to make the safe decision - better the stranger be dumbfounded by the declined request than be dumbfounded if the dog bit him!*


I also agree with this.

Better safe than sorry!


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## elly1210

I always try and remember that we don't know if the dog is a rescue either and it may not be entirely her fault. 

Many times dogs not just GSD maybe rescued dogs that had a lack of proper socialization, bad breeding and then (Maybe training too). 

I have a rescued GSD that is an aloof type of boy he isn't protective of me but I will watch his langauge to see if he is being very aloof or not. Most of the time he will just stand by me and doesn't look for interaction. I don't know his background but I do know he was not properly socialized but we have worked with him a lot to put him in situations that make him comfortable and not fearful.


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## CarrieJ

Actually there some strangers that I don't want her friendly with. 
Subcontractors for the phone or cable company, I don't know how well they've been screened. Alice gets crated for their saftey and hers.
I've got various professional drunks and customers of the nudie bar a block down the street, same thing.

It's a pick and choose thing.
This thread probably got into a "training thing" because if someone is cautious/courteous/respectful enough to ask; it is surprising to them. Usually people who ask to meet your dog will not "hug" "pet over the top" "grab the face" or otherwise create the excitement. They usually tend to be dog savvy. 
People confuse resource guarding with protectiveness. 
It's not the dog's decision on what the perceived threat is; it is the human's. IMO


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## LaRen616

In my neighborhood I tell everyone that my dog is not friendly, I dont care if they think it's because he was poorly trained or a bad seed, he's the sweetest dog in the world and he loves everyone, but I dont want everyone knowing that. 

When little kids in my neighborhood ask to pet him I often say in a sad, apologetic voice "Sorry, but he doesn't like people". 

If I can lie to a couple of kids, then the owner of the dog can lie to the OP. Maybe her dog is friendly, but she doesn't know you, maybe she is trying to keep herself safe by having you think the dog is a threat.


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## CarrieJ

That's a point.
I just don't lie to everyone I meet in public. I just don't see every person that I meet in public as a threat.


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## LaRen616

CarrieJ said:


> That's a point.
> I just don't lie to everyone I meet in public. I just don't see every person that I meet in public as a threat.


See, I live in a bad neighborhood, you do not want anyone thinking that your dog is friendly, because you will become the next victim in a robbery.

We dont know if the OP lives in a good neighborhood, or if that woman lives in a bad neighborhood or if she is a single woman or a single mother. Maybe to her the OP looked like a threat or a shady person (in her eyes) you just never know.


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## Lilie

CarrieJ said:


> That's a point.
> I just don't lie to everyone I meet in public. I just don't see every person that I meet in public as a threat.


My boy doesn't care to be pet by strangers. He'll tolerate it if I ask him to, but he has never, ever been a wiggly butt type of dog. That doesn't mean I can't take him out in public. He has been well socialized since he was a puppy. He is not reactive to dogs or people. But if you were to meet him out on a public outing, it would be obvious to you that he doesn't welcome your advances. 

Having said that, if he was a wiggly butt, happy go lucky dog that absolutely and insanely wanted your attention, then I can certainly see the public asking to pet him. 

People just can't tell the difference.


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## gsdraven

GSDGirl5472 said:


> I don't understand why this discussion has turned into it being an issue with training.


There is a difference between not allowing strangers to pet your dog because the dog doesn't enjoy the attention of strangers (but IMO should allow it) and not allowing strangers to pet your dog because you are _training_ your dog that strangers are bad. The second one is where there is an issue with training. 

GSDs should be aloof to strangers but they shouldn't be aggressive to non-threatening strangers. There is a difference.


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## CarrieJ

Lilie: I agree, my GSD is definitely not wiggly butt (unless it's one of the old man's friends that come over) I had an earlier post on this thread. I just don't want to live my life in fear, nor transfer it down the leash to my dog (my biggest weakness in handling my own dog---I'm working on my own confidence all the time) for every single person I see on the street.



> My boy doesn't care to be pet by strangers. He'll tolerate it if I ask him to, but he has never, ever been a wiggly butt type of dog. That doesn't mean I can't take him out in public. He has been well socialized since he was a puppy. He is not reactive to dogs or people. But if you were to meet him out on a public outing, it would be obvious to you that he doesn't welcome your advances.
> 
> Having said that, if he was a wiggly butt, happy go lucky dog that absolutely and insanely wanted your attention, then I can certainly see the public asking to pet him.
> 
> People just can't tell the difference.


I completely agree with your last sentence.
I asked someone(years ago) if I could pet their Aussie mix one time in downtown and they said "Sure" the dog was relaxed appearing, tail medium, wagging...basically not a fearful posture.
That dog put four perfect puncture wounds in my leg.
"Oh, sorry...we're working on that"

On the other hand...people will see a dog with it's hackles up tail tucked trying to show avoidance and still push it into a wall to pet it....*big eye roll*

It's (personally) really ridiculously cute to see a GSD with wiggly butt. But, generally only with people on "the list" at least with my dog.


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## selzer

I had a dog that would have LOVED to be petted all the time by everyone. Unfortunately he was big and mostly black, and for some reason, most people did not ask and wanted no part of him. Their loss. 

My girls are all black and tans/ black and red dogs, with the saddle back markings. They are a little smaller and some of them would prefer a world without people other than me in it. These are the ones that people tend to flock to, sometimes asking permission, and sometimes not.

If someone asks nicely and there is no other reason to deny them (like the dog has already had enough for today, or they have four screaming kids with them), even though my dogs would rather not, I normally, tell my girl to "say hello." 

"Say hello" is a command that is given in a neutral voice, almost to the point that the dog has a choice. I expect them to go up and sniff an offered hand. I then tell them Good girl. If they move away, I thank the person. If they stand there for more petting, I allow that. 

I guess my feeling is that it is better to have a dog that has had some positive contact with humans outside of my family. And if someone is willing to meet my dogs without a bite suit, then I see it as an opportunity, not as an imposition. I have the power though. I can always say no, for your protection, for my protection, and mostly for my dogs' protection. I used the apostrophe in the plural sense because a dog bite might affect more than just the individual doing the biting. I might have trouble getting insurance with my breed, especially if one of my dog's bit someone. So to protect them all, I want to reduce the possibility.

How do you reduce the possibility? You can either maintain a bubble around the dog, or you can train and socialized the dog in hopes that is an odd situation the dog does not make a bad choice. 

If we lived in a perfect world, and my dog bit someone, then I would be liable for the emergency room visit and nothing beyond that. If that was all my insurance company would be stung for, than there would be no reason to cancel my insurance. 

Isn't it funny, if somebody deliberately murders your dog, you will be lucky to get them to pay the replacement cost of the dog, no pain and suffering, no emotional compensation. But if your dog does something to somebody, well they may be entitled to all kinds of monetary rewards. Not that you want to get rich off of your dog's dead body, but if someone decided to go into your yard and use your dog for target practice, I would want to hit them where it hurts most. Rarely will someone go to jail for a first offense of animal cruelty, but a 45 thousand dollar judgement might put a pin in them.


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## onyx'girl

I really don't want strangers petting my dogs. If I know the person different story, but you never know how a stranger will act.
Elisabeth shared about a teenage girl that wanted to pet Stark then screamed when he growled(or whatever he did to set her off) Now Stark has to back step some because of that girls reaction.
It isn't worth it to me to have that happen, and all three of my dogs aren't into strangers touching them as it is.


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## CarrieJ

> Isn't it funny, if somebody deliberately murders your dog, you will be lucky to get them to pay the replacement cost of the dog, no pain and suffering, no emotional compensation. But if your dog does something to somebody, well they may be entitled to all kinds of monetary rewards. Not that you want to get rich off of your dog's dead body, but if someone decided to go into your yard and use your dog for target practice, I would want to hit them where it hurts most. Rarely will someone go to jail for a first offense of animal cruelty, but a 45 thousand dollar judgement might put a pin in them.


No kidding!


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## Lauri & The Gang

Remember, folks - we don't own Labs:



> *Temperament
> *True Labrador Retriever temperament is as much a hallmark of the breed as the "otter" tail. The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog.


 
We own German Shepherds:



> *Temperament
> *The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships.


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## CarrieJ

Absolutely...you must be on the list.
Otherwise you are just one of the nameless rabble that hang out in front of the club...wanting to get in.
I just think that I get to make the list.


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## Deuce

onyx'girl said:


> My females are the same way...genetics/nerves are the reason for their issues. Socializing goes so far, but the dogs make-up is the reason most often for dogs being "protective" it is usually fear based.... and they won't attack but certainly may growl, hackle and warn that they are over their threshold when people are in their bubble.


My male, Deuce, is the same way. He's not "well bred" as he came to me as a rescue from PA and he's very attached to us. He's OK when he's off leash and can approach someone on his own but one the leash forget it.

I don't think it's "fair" to attribute behavior like this to "poor/lack of training".


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## PaddyD

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I know an owner like that, doesn't want anyone to pet their dog because he thinks it will make his dog less protective if the need should arise.


Yes, we have one of those in one of the parks I go to. Some macho dude that wants a macho dog. The result is that nobody comes within 50 yards of them because the dog is huge and who's to say that the owner or leash won't give out when he tries to charge. I know the owner's wife and she is not too happy about it, she is a very nice, out-going lady.


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## selzer

Deuce said:


> My male, Deuce, is the same way. He's not "well bred" as he came to me as a rescue from PA and he's very attached to us. He's OK when he's off leash and can approach someone on his own but one the leash forget it.
> 
> I don't think it's "fair" to attribute behavior like this to "poor/lack of training".


It could be genetics.
It could be lack of socialization.
It could be lack of good leadership.
It could be that good positive training could improve the dog.

***********************************************************************************

So do dogs live in the moment or not?

If you get an adult dog with problems, and apply a good leadership structure, and some training, and start socializing the dog, unless the dog has genetically weak nerves, it should adjust to its new surroundings and lose the bad habits.

If a dog has genetically weak nerves, then no amount of training or socializing the dog, nor will leadership make the dog bomb proof.

That is kind of black and white, and most things are more gray in color. 

I think that nerves are kind of a spectrum. You have dogs that are a total basket case, shaking, afraid of noises, afraid of grass, afraid of people, afraid of dogs -- painfully afraid, painfully shy. And you have dogs that are rock solid, nothing phases them, totally bomb proof.

Now that we have those two dogs out of the way, there is the rest of population, police dogs that will take on 320# drunken crazy people, but are terrified of the vet. You have pets who can go anywhere and do anything, but are afraid of old guys in hats. There are dog-aggressive dogs, who bark and lunge at dogs like fools, but are really afraid of them and posturing to get them to GO. 

Sometimes you can point and say, look the puppy was attacked by a big dog when it was weeks old, now it does not like big dogs. Or the dog was teased by a couple of pre-teens, now it does not like pre-teens. 

Other times, you are just baffled, I never even raise my voice to her, and she acts like I beat her with a whip. 

And maybe this dog has weak nerves, and this dog had never been socialized, and this other dog was abused. 

If you totally just STOP. 


Stop, trying to explain it away, stop trying to blame someone, stop giving the dog poor victim treatment. 

Move on. 

Provide, good leadership, training and discipline and controlled socialization experiences, patience and time. There are few dogs that will not improve significantly. 

There are few dogs that are hopeless cases. They may be hopeless as an agility star, or schutzhund champion competitor, but most of them can pass a CGC test. Dogs that can pass a CGC can go on get obedience titles or do other performance events. But more importantly, dogs that can pass a CGC can certainly make it as a pet. 

Deliberately keeping a dog unsocialized or undersocialized to make them more wary and less accepting of strangers is like deciding to remain ignorant. Or forcing your children to be as ignorant by denying the tools for education.

Certainly, you have to love the one you got. And you can respect that they are not Golden Retrievers, I think we all have the aloof down, but what about the approachable, that is there too. Our dog should be approachable. If they are not, we could all step back, and think, what could I do better or different? 

If we say any of the following:
it is his breeding
it is his breed
some of them are one-person dogs
he was abused
he is a rescue
he doesn't like people
we did not socialize him when he was a puppy
he had a rough start
I want a guard dog
he is shy
He is mean

I think we have to stop. Whatever we are doing is not working for this dog. We need to try something different, not give up on the dog. You do not have to drop a dog in a rescue or shelter to give up on it. 

I love to see the working line people with their dogs and their kids and their neighbor kids and their adult friends all enjoying themselves with the happy well-adjusted dog in their midst. A dog with schutzhund title or protection training or a k-9. Since this is not my type of dog, I could just believe the people when they say that these dogs need to be sharp, that they do not want just anyone around them. When in fact a bomb-proof dog, a dog that is a great candidate for working as well as competition sports, is one that can handle strangers, children, a new situation without going ballistic.


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## Lilie

Deuce said:


> I don't think it's "fair" to attribute behavior like this to "poor/lack of training".


Remember "training" is also required from the handler. If I went to you and asked to pet your dog, your response should be in the best interest of your dog. If you don't feel your dog is ready for stranger advances then it's up to the handler to keep the dog at a safe distance from strangers. 


A good handler should also be able to read their dog. Like Selzer stated in an earlier post, if her dog walks away she ends the encounter. Selzer pays attention to her dog. 

The best trained dog in the hands of an inexperianced handler can end horribly.


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## CarrieJ

Excellent posts, Seltzer and Lillie.


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## lrodptl

onyx'girl said:


> My females are the same way...genetics/nerves are the reason for their issues. Socializing goes so far, but the dogs make-up is the reason most often for dogs being "protective" it is usually fear based.... and they won't attack but certainly may growl, hackle and warn that they are over their threshold when people are in their bubble.
> 
> My male is of good nerve, he'll let people approach without reacting, but really isn't into petting unless he is ok with you. He figures it out pretty quick who he is ok with and who he doesn't want invading his being. I read his body language and let the person know if he isn't into being petted. Most often he gets wiggly happy leaning on the person for more, but now and then, he is suspicious.


Now that's an honest and true answer. I just posted this article on temperament in another thread. I thought it was excellent as I am also living with a 96 pound weak nerved 20 month old GSD. I have no illusions.
(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


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## Good_Karma

Selzer, I really liked your post.

I could have been that woman that the OP was talking about. I don't know why Niko is the way he is. My husband and I spent the first year of Niko's life in training and socialization mode. Niko seemed to become more reactive as time went on. So we stopped, went into recluse mode. Niko got bigger and scarier. We hired a private trainer to work with us to learn how to manage his reactivity. This is helping A LOT. But we have a very long way to go before I would let a person approach us. 

Today Niko and I went for a walk in town (we live several miles outside of town). I was positively thrilled that Niko did NOT bark or react to the following things:

1. A guy rode by on a bike while I was busy picking up an unexpected poop  Niko chose all on his own that the bike guy was okay and didn't need to be barked at. (YAY!)

2. A woman said hello to me from across the street as she was getting into her car.

Do you see how low my expectations are at this point?  So give the lady with the dog the benefit of the doubt. She's out in the world with her dog, maybe she is doing what I was doing today. And thank you from the bottom of my heart for asking permission to pet first!!! Just like what happened to Elisabeth and Stark, I do NOT need someone to approach my dog at this point in his re-conditioning and send us back to square one.


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## Lilie

Good Karma - can you imagine what Niko would be like if you didn't work so hard? Although you might not think you've made progress, I truly think Niko would be a bumbling jumble of nerves had you not put so much effort in him.


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## Good_Karma

Thank you! We are trying so hard, and we are making progress. I hope someday he can live up to his full potential.


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## CarrieJ

I used to think that Alice was worse with human females. 
As I was walking her through a very high end shopping center today; it came to me.
The perfume. Every woman we walked by had on way too much perfume. I say way too much because, if I can smell it with my allergies and cigarette nose....it's too much. Alice must have been grossed out.
Really cloying. Blech.

I didn't even want to stop to have a "visit" the pretty dog session.


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## JakodaCD OA

kudos to you Leah

I think one of the problems, that people have with dogs who have 'issues', is, once they manifest, well, either the person is totally unprepared and ill equipped to deal with it, don't want to deal with it, think that continuing 'whatever' won't help..

So Fido who may get aggressive, go beserko over other dogs, whatever his issue, is kept at home for fear of being embarrassed, or again, ill equipped to handle/work the issue. 

I think I mentioned Masi isn't fond of young kids, I'm not sure why, probably because I don't have kids, the few that she'd been around when younger, didn't have good doggie skills, and did scare the heck out of her..I can tell she's just not comfortable with them, so with that, I don't let kids pet her..

And well , it's rather hard to socialize her with kids, when someone isn't going to let you use their kids for guiena pig bait My nephew who is around occasionally, is MY guinea pig material,,he has no fear, doesn't hang on her, and is like a 10 year old on crack PERFECT for her, she's fine with him, isn't his best pal, but tolerates his presence and actions.. He's not someone she sees all the time, so it's good for her when he is around I take advantage of that)

I absolutely don't agree with Joe Public, becoming all macho and saying "no don't touch my dog I want him to grow up 'mean'"...that will be a lawsuit waiting to happen


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## CarrieJ

Alice isn't too hot with kids. They have weird body language (I think) and I don't have am not going to have kids.
My nephew is awful around dogs, but his friend has rotties. I love that boy, he's a dog kid. He really helped Alice.

I also have weekdays off, so every once and awhile our walk will be by schools. Recess is pretty interesting to Alice. She doesn't freak, but looks like she'd like to chase 'em all down. Possibly herd them into a nice pile....(which is pretty much unacceptable)


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## debbiebrown

i also know people who have gsd's and didn't socialize them, they basically live as house cats, never going for walks, only going out to potty, i could go on and on, it makes me sick! poor dogs never experiencing the world..the husband has short man's syndrom wants to be Mr Macho with angry attack dogs.......i'd like to kick him in the ........well fill in the balnk.........i have half thought about calling on them, but what can you do, the dogs are fed, taken care of, they just don't get exercise or [email protected]

Here i am with my young Male NOT hiding him from the world and alot would with some of his issues.........been and done anything and everything with him, training, agility, tracking, Ob classes, parkinglots, friends homes, etc, etc.......and this will continue for his lifetime.......you cannot worry about things that could happen............handle it and move on.......Sam doesn't like to be approached by strangers, but we handle it, we've trained for this.....on another note, he doesn't have to be touched by strangers if he doesn't like it, as long as he is sitting and tolerating it a strangers presence, thats all i can ask............some dogs are only capable of so much, and to force something on them is going to bring out some bad behaviors............


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## Kevin W

I'm reading some posts mentioning going up to the dog and petting her. In my case all I wanted to do was meet the dog/owner up closer due to the fact we were about 30 yards away and it was getting dark so I couldn't see her all too well. Possibly have a conversation with the owner etc. If the owner said I could pet her and I felt the desire to I would. What the owner said is that if anybody comes close to her (owner) she would attack. I'm not mad about the answer she gave me, glad she was honest because my 15 month old daughter was with us. No thank you I will stay my distance and keep walking.


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## CarrieJ

Kevin, personally...I would have allowed it.


> I'm reading some posts mentioning going up to the dog and petting her. In my case all I wanted to do was meet the dog/owner up closer due to the fact we were about 30 yards away and it was getting dark so I couldn't see her all too well. Possibly have a conversation with the owner etc. If the owner said I could pet her and I felt the desire to I would. What the owner said is that if anybody comes close to her (owner) she would attack. I'm not mad about the answer she gave me, glad she was honest because my 15 month old daughter was with us. No thank you I will stay my distance and keep walking.


I probably wouldn't allow petting but definitely a chat and have Alice Kramden in a down stay. I would have welcomed another fairly dog savvy person who was raising their child in that way.
Thirty yards away? I would have a bit dumbfounded but...as some people have posted..they have rescues and various reactivity issues. 
That actually sounded more like resource guarding the owner than reactivity though. IMO.
R/G is not acceptable in my world, nor is it allowed under any circumstances.


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## Zisso

Kevin, I have to agree that if someone says their dog will attack, the best thing to do is walk away. Even with all we have chattered on about here, bottom line is it would not be safe for you to force yourself into an already bad situation. Kudos to you for knowing to move on!


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## CarrieJ

Zisso, this is totally off topic...but your sig line is funnier than heck.


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## debbiebrown

this is what everyone should be teaching their kids..........always ask the owner before approaching a dog......then they will grow up with this valuable piece of information and will most likely ask as adults like Kevin did..........

i have to laugh at some people that say "oh, all dogs love me" those are the ones you better watch out for..........


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## selzer

Good_Karma said:


> Thank you! We are trying so hard, and we are making progress. I hope someday he can live up to his full potential.


Leah, I am so glad you are perservering with Niko. And while working with Rosa too, who had her own set of hurdles. That is awesome. 

Don't worry, with continued training, consistency, and patience, in another nine years he will be the best dog around. (I truly believe this about every one of mine too.)


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## Kevin W

debbiebrown said:


> this is what everyone should be teaching their kids..........always ask the owner before approaching a dog......then they will grow up with this valuable piece of information and will most likely ask as adults like Kevin did..........
> 
> i have to laugh at some people that say "oh, all dogs love me" those are the ones you better watch out for..........


Very true. I've learned my lesson a couple years ago where my pinky fingernail was bitten off by a ridgeback mix. I've seen and played with this dog a few times over a period of 3 months. Very loveable dog at the time. It only took a domestic dispute between husband and wife and the dog bit the wife in the calf badly. One of them beat up the dog and was left outside for a couple weeks which turned him to be aggressive. 

I come over to the house and notice the dog is just laying the the door. I feel bad because the dog was miss treated and I would go out and play with him. I open the door and as soon as my right arm swings out the door he snaps at my hand ripping off my pinky nail. The dog was later put down after another incident with another family member. Even after the first incident the dog still played with the kids and it was ONLY the kids he would protect and get along with.


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## debbiebrown

thats really sad..........in the end the dog paid the price for problems with the husband and wife..........i am sure this type of thing happens more than we care to think about.......


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## selzer

When I was moving, I moved my then dog Frodo first, I built him a kennel at the new house and put him there, and on moving day, he was out of the way for all the family and friends who were helping me move. 

I was unpacking my dishes in the dining room when I glanced out the window and nearly tossed my cookies. One of my little sister's boyfriends buddies, was IN THE KENNEL WITH FRODO. 

I NEVER expected anyone to go into the dog's kennel. 

Frodo did not attack Kenyon, though I am told that it was somewhat tense for a moment. I am really just floored that he would do that. This is someone I only knew as a friend of my sister's boy friend. That is, I knew his name. I was not even outside to pull him off if he did decide to attack.

ETA: I bought the property next to the place I was renting at the time. So the kennel was in my back yard whichever house I was living in. So, I did not move him away from home and leave him in an empty house/yard or anything.

ETA: Yes, I did actually move my bits of things in a 'barrow. LOL!


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## MaggieRoseLee

gsdraven said:


> There is a difference between not allowing strangers to pet your dog because the dog doesn't enjoy the attention of strangers (but IMO should allow it) *and not allowing strangers to pet your dog because you are training your dog that strangers are bad. The second one is where there is an issue with training. *
> 
> GSDs should be aloof to strangers but they shouldn't be aggressive to non-threatening strangers. There is a difference.


EXACTLY!!! 


Bretta could care less if people pet her. She pretty much ignores everyone when we are out and about unless she knows them. So people would THINK she's scary and protective cause she's calm and ignoring them.

People that don't know her just see a SCARY GSD coming their way. They don't know if she's mean or not. So I've had people cross the street to avoid us! So I don't have to undersocialize/undertrain and have a dangerous dog who I have no idea how it will react (over react) or behave. 

Instead I have a dog that I can take anywhere and have be a part of my life I can depend on to behave. Not worry about being a HUGE issue all the time that, frankly, I'd just mostly leave at home rather than have to deal with.

'Real' police and protection dogs aren't fearful and reacting constantly when out on the streets. They are trained and socialized and THAT'S why they are good protection dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA

RE: Kevins post about the woman being 30 yards away and saying the dog would "attack"..well what the heck was the dog doing OFF LEAD?

I can certainly understand and appreciate that they asked first, the woman said no, but if I "felt" my dog would attack someone that just walked up to me? that would be a big problem for me and for my dog. And I would never take the chance of having the dog off leash especially with a toddler around. .


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