# jacks food new thread



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

thought I would do a new thread 

He pooped yesterday at noon some hard and the next 2 piles were a little better then pudding

he ate
2.5 cups meal INNOVA large breed puppy
1 can dog food evo chicken
I hate to give this but 2 beggin strips.... this had the forbidden ingredients corn etc

I do not think thats a lot of food

 he is now 57 instead of 60 he has lost weight in kennel....

He then did not poop until 12 today even though he ate 2x.....
It was really formed the first piece and then he walked 15 feet squated and then 2 small piles of looser but not quite pudding formed until last and then loose

He he just holding it too long?

He is really hungry
He ate this morning
1/4 cup evo chicken
1 cup meal

tonight 1.5 cups meal
1/4 can evo
1/4 cup pumpkin which he loved he even ate it off of the spoon LOL
he cleaned his bowl 2x today licking it until it looked as if I did not need to wash LOL HAHAHAH

No treats....
Is this enough food?
do you think he is holding things up and then getting loose at the end......

I will see how the pumpkin works
and how long can that keep in refrigerator?
it looks like t might last 3 days for feedings

I hate to be a pest I just want him to be ok and do all the right things at least what I can control


----------



## dz0qp5 (Oct 12, 2004)

Just my 2 cents, I have never had luck with any of the Natura products, similar symptoms to what you are describing particularly with the EVO products, pudding poops unwanted weight loss, I would cut back on the food thinking I was over feeding and the dogs would be starving and losing weight, they simply just never worked real well for my dogs.


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

i think it is the INNOVA and the evo
Tomorrow I have to find a better food that agrees with him
I would love grain free but he is only 7 months too much protein
what you think of pinnacle
Orijen I have to order
any thoughts?


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

There are very few cases where a dog holds their poop too long.

Firm stools at the beginning and soft at the end usually means the food is too rich or you are feeding too much or too much at once. You can overfeed dogss and some will actually lose weight. Their systems work so hard to digest a quanity of food and it doesn't have time to absorb the nutrients from the food.

I wouldn't jump to a new food just yet. 

With my picky gal if I do canned with her kibble she will go soft from too much canned food.

My dogs eat a 5 pm and don't poop until any where depending on the dog from 7 - 9 am, they eat at 7 am and won't poop until 4 - 5 pm.

I would try 3 feedings a day. 

I didn't internet search the food, but is the "Fat Content"?

Val


----------



## Kurys Mom (Oct 11, 2008)

I didn't read your other thread but wanted to say that Innova caused my pup, who is the same age as yours to have the same type of poop issues you are describing. 

A little back ground; He was tested for Pancreatic Insuffciency, (please excuse my spelling







) of which his was a 6, bottom end is 5! He was also itchy, lost most of his coat and was definitely not thriving. He was sooo thin and his poop was never solid since day one with him. We got him at seven weeks.

I tried so many foods, and different things. He is now thriving, great poops, his coat is soft and stunning (he is a long coat). The turn around happened about 2 months ago. The vet put him on Metro for Girardia, just in case, no differemce. He was repeatedly wormed. Developed Yeast infection of the skin. Egads what a nightmare. 

This is what finally worked for him. Left the Vet out of the equation, good food recommended was Eukanuba and more drugs.
He eats a mixture of either Taste of the Wild Pacific Blend and Wellness Venison and Rice. 3/4 Wellness and 1/4 TOTW. and as of late Orijen LB Puppy mixed with 1/4 Wellness. Both combo's work great. To these I add Natural Organic Yogurt or Probiotics. I Tbls. of Dr. Foster and Smith Premium Coat Conditioner 1x per day. He is fed twice per day. That is the PM feeding and in the Am I add some Evangers canned premium chicken to the dry and not the above. Also give him Spring Water as I did some reading on the minerals lacking in water supplies. He is now the picture of health! The only thing that remains is he is occasionally itchy, not bad no hair loss. This I attribute to laundry soap. I forget sometimes to wash his blankets in one of the allergy free nothing added detergents and fabric softner. 

Hope some of this helps. Will go and look at your other post later also. Wishing the best in your trial and error it can be a pita. I have to order the Orijen also, no one carries it here.


Lisa


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Firm stools at the beginning and soft at the end usually means the food is too rich or you are feeding too much or too much at once.


It could also be Giardia. We have that problem now and then but when it's bad, Renji gets metronidazole. 



> Quote:
> He pooped yesterday at noon some hard and the next 2 piles were a little better then pudding


That's consistent with Renji's giardia flares. I know it's not his food because he can have HUGE meals and poop perfectly fine for days or have a small meal and poop this stuff. We usually see the G-poop during times of stress. When we had to use metronidazole, it cleared up immediately. I don't know if it was in your previous posts, but have you had the Giardia antigen test run? That's the only giardia test that will tell you one way or another- just regular fecals often give false negatives.



> Quote:I would love grain free but he is only 7 months too much protein


There are some grain-free kibbles that do not have stupidly high levels of protein. I'm not sure why grain-free kibbles tend to be so high in protein. Not even the raw diet is that high (sounds odd, but it is what it is, and no I'm not bugging you about it!








) Val (Wisc Tiger) posted about a kibble that looked really good, it was not grain-free but it was pretty low on grains. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=920960&page=1
That's it! If I were feeding kibble, I'd have this as an option.


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

Jack is on flagyl now
for the hersey squirts a few days ago

I am going to get a full blood pan el done including the antigen for giarda to be sure

The vet reccommended Pinacle oat one becasue oif the fiber but on anoter site that someone sent it says oats are bad

I did cut him back on the wet food lets see if that is it

I just feel he is not getting too much 
total for day 1/2 can wet
2.5 meal 

before it was 1 can wet and 2.5 meal

well I am going to see how the pumpkin works for a few days
the vetc choice I have to order no store within 250 miles LOL HAHAHAH

you all are so helpful and I really appreaciate all the advice it really helps


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Good luck at the vet. Flagyl = metronidazole, but another board member (Barb E, I believe) had to run a couple courses of meds to finally kick G. The sad part is, once a dog has G, it has it for life, so I hope it's not that!

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=0+1459&aid=1473
The use of Metamucil (psyllium seed husk) in dogs and cats.


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I hope you are able to get Jack figured out.

I know of a LOT of youngsters that have had the EXACT same issues that Jack is having (both with the poops and either weight loss, or they continued growing and ended up thin because they didn't gain weight.) on the Innova LBP and once they got off of that kibble, their problems were solved.


----------



## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

Aw, I hope you find the right food for Jack soon!

A pumpkin tip: what I do is, when I open a can, I put spoonfuls of the pumpkin onto a cookie sheet or large-ish dish lined with freezer paper, and then freeze them. I can then put the frozen portions of pumpkin into a ziplock baggie in my freezer and keep them as long as I need them so I don't waste the pumpkin, and I always have some on hand if I need it. It only takes 10-ish seconds to defrost each pumpkin spoonful in the microwave and add it to his food.


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

thanks for the pumpkin tip it sounds good and then I will always have it

Tracy I am thinking you are right about the INNOVA
Ok so what food LOL 

I am really confused

Was looking at pinnacle chicken and oats
The Vet said it would be good but they really don't care that much she sadi she looked it up adn it would be great because of the fiber not sure of that

too much reading has me a mess LOL
I would still be feeding IAMS had I not found this site LOL


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

I just read on another thread some one else having problems
they switched to natural balance duck and potato not so high in protein sounds like a good try for me what you guys think?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Kathy, who cares what we think at this point? Right now, the only opinions that count are the opinions of your dog and his butt.







Go try a small bag and see what happens, and if that doesn't work, go on to the next. Nat Balance Duck & potato is a pretty good food, so if I were in your shoes I'd be getting samples of everything. 

When it comes to issues, you really just have to try everything you can until you find something that agrees with your dog. Some dogs on this board are on Iams Low Residue and while that food is not good by a long shot, it is good for THEM and that's ultimately what matters. Please just go try a few things and let Jack's body tell you if it's good or not. And keep us posted as we're all hoping Jack stabilizes soon.


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

Diane
you guys are pretty good if not great at getting ideas out and helping with problems that is why I post any problems I have...

Today after adding the pumpkin which I might add he loves.....
and decreasing the evo canned his poop this am was really ok formed and just a little loose at the end no second pile.... 
so for breakfast he gets
1 cup meal 1/2 can evo and 2 tablespoons pumpkin
and for dinner he will get 1-1/2 cups meal and 1/4 can evo and 2tabespoons pumpkin and he is licking his plate clean and wants more for now that will have to do I do not want to overfeed

I am going to try the natural balance becasue he does also scrath a lot and I know there are no fleas his coat is beautiful.. so maybe he is sensitive....
This will be the 5th food he has been on and that is why I am worried and wondering what I am doing wrong.....
Canidae OMG piles and Piles solid gold nutro iams both lots of poops
and now INNOVA He has got to get on one food and stay there I hate switching.....

Need to get dresses Jack and I are going shopping


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Kathy, my post was absolutely not intended to discourage you from posting.







Your questions not only end up helping you and Jack but they help many others. My point was that we can only go so far before you have to dive in and just try a few foods and let Jack tell you. You have tried five foods already and you know what, you might have to stick with what on paper is a low quality food but works for Jack. There are dogs out there that just cannot handle certain foods or food types. 

Try Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach. The ingredients are not the best but many people have had success with that food. I'm not sure if it's geared to all life stages or otherwise, but give it a look. See if the Iams Low Residue diet would be good. When you look, besides looking for an "all life stages" food, I'd read the guaranteed analysis and look for a moderate protein amount (not much more than 30ish%) and a fiber content of at least 3%. Read the ingredients label but remember that you've got a bit of a special case, so don't worry so much about what it looks like. Try samples. 

I see you've tried Nutro, but have you tried Nutro Ultra?
---------------
Natural Ingredients: Chicken meal, brown rice, rice bran, lamb meal, poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, natural source of linoleic acid), sunflower oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, source of linoleic acid), flaxseed (natural source of alpha linolenic acid), natural flavors, beet pulp, alfalfa (natural source of chlorophyll), salmon meal (natural source of DHA), oatmeal, tomato pomace (natural source of lycopene), fish oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, natural source of DHA), cranberry, dried egg product, kelp (natural source of iodine), taurine, bacillus licheniformis fermentation extract, bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, l-carnitine, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, garlic (natural source of selenium), marigold extract (natural source of lutein), lycopene.

Vitamins & Minerals: Potassium chloride, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), biotin, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, niacin (vitamin B3), calcium iodate, calcium pantothenate (source of vitamin B5), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, beta carotene, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid.
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude protein (min.) 30%, crude fat (min.) 15%, crude fiber (max.) 4%, moisture (max.) 10%, linoleic acid (min.) 4%, zinc (min.) 250 mg/kg, vitamin E (min.) 160 iu/kg, ascorbic acid (min.) 35 mg/kg, DHA (min.) 0.03 mg/kg, alpha-linolenic acid 0.65%, l-carnitine 75 mg/kg, lutein (min.) 10 mg/kg, beta carotene (min.) 0.5 mg/kg, lycopene (min.) 0.25 mg/kg, taurine 1000 mg/kg, selenium 0.3 mg/kg, chondroitin sulfate, 150 mg/kg, glucosamine (min.) 190 mg/kg. 
------------------

How about another Petsmart-available food like Blue Buffalo for Puppies?

Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein (min) 27%, Crude Fat (min) 16%, Crude Fiber (max) 4%, Moisture (max) 10%, Calcium (min) 1.3%, Phosphorus (min) 1%, DHA* (min) 0.1%, L-Carnitine* (min) 100 mg/kg, Omega 3 Fatty Acids* (min) 0.40%, Omega 6 Fatty Acids* (min) 3.5

Fiber is good and the ingredients look good...
Original Recipe
Ingredients: Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Rye, Whole Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Menhaden Fish Meal (natural source of DHA-Docosahexaneoic Acid), Tomato Pomace (natural source of Lycopene), Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Dried Egg, Blueberries, Cranberries, Flaxseed, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Taurine, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Turmeric, Garlic, Sunflower Oil (natural source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Herring Oil (natural source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Fructooligosaccharides, Monooligosaccharides, Dried Chicory Root, Black Malted Barley, Oil of Rosemary, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Beta Carotene, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Calcium Phosphate, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Zinc), Iron Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Iron), Copper Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Copper), Manganese Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Manganese), Potassium Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Potassium), Cobalt Proteinate (source of Chelated Cobalt), Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Salt, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, Bifidobacterium longum, Enterococcus faecium

There are so many good ones out there, but since your pup is another special case, the best thing you can do is play "Musical Kibble" and stick with what's good and PRAY the manufacturers don't change the formula on you!


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Kathy, I'm not impressed with Natural Balance foods b/c I dislike the idea of a carb based dog food, especially an expensive carb based dog food. Many smart, knowledgeable people (& their dogs!) disagree with me & have had GREAT results. I'm a results based type, so if I was them, I'd go with what actually works for their dogs & NOT another's biased advice. I have never, & will never, attempt to dissuade people from using the food(s) that work for their pet(s).

One thing...Are you giving particular foods an opportunity to work before switching? Whichever types/brands you try, you need to give them enough time to be certain they work or don't. 

IF the pumpkin works, that's great. MyTribe adores the stuff. IF you'll be feeding it every day, I'd check with your vet simply b/c it's high in vitamin A (I think). IF it shouldn't be fed every day, consider adding soluble fiber to his food, when you aren't adding pumpkin. Bene-Fibre(spelling?) is one I've used that I think someone else mentioned previously.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Also...for scratchies, consider trying omega-3 fish oil supplements as a starting point. IF they'll stop the itching, it's a problem solved without further restricting his food choices. I'd also want to be certain it's not an environmental allergy before doing additional dietary restrictions.

I also add a tablespoon of spirulina to my dogs' food once a day. They all love the stuff (ghastly neon greenish mess that it is!). It's in several well regarded pet supplements. I became a (semi)believer b/c mom feels it helped to turn her health around at a time we weren't sure she'd live out the year. I do know it can't hurt.


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

thanks all you are so great

My big problem is that before I joined htis site I thought that
I IAMS was a premium food LOL HAHAHAh

Anyway today he had a nice movement 2 large pieces wooo
cannot believe I am talking about poop this way feel like I have a 3 year old potty training HAHHAHA

I will look into that spirulina stuff for the itchies

The vet called today and said not to switch foods at this point... give this several weeks for it to work and him have good movements for several weeks...

I have also decreased the wet and increasing the meal....

She said he should be eating at least 3.5 cups to 4 a day with only 1/2 c of that dog food.... she said that the pumplin we can decrease to like 1T or less as he does ok

I think just watching right now is good.. he is cleaning his dish clean wooooooo 2 cups meal 1/4 can food and 2T pumpkin
thats a big meal for him so am pleased.... He appears happier his coat is really shinney and he isn't sheeding a lot right now,,,,, 
right now as I am typing he is rearanging his dishes...... taking them to different rooms... I am ignoring it becasue I feel if I make a big deal he will think its a good game LOL HAHAHAH

Way too funny he looks hilarious,,


----------



## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

I will say that my Charlie does really well on the Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy food. When we switched Charlie to it, his poops firmed up, his coat got softer and shinier... it just has been a great food for him. When I stop feeding him the large breed puppy food, I'm going to start with the Blue Buffalo food for adult dogs because this food works well for Charlie. 

Now, I've read that other members of this board didn't have the same results from this food - so it just goes to show, all our dogs are different, and Jack will let you know what he needs!

Another thing - I do supplement his kibble with whole foods - yogurt, sometimes pumpkin, cooked meats like chicken or ham or turkey (but thanks to this board I'm getting a notion to try RAW as well), cheese, celery, carrots, peanut butter, hot dogs... most of those are supplemented as treats but he does get plain yogurt with live cultures every single day. I don't buy commercial treats because I personally prefer to make my own (he loves the peanut butter treats I make, and I make them tiny so I can use them while clicker-training... he truly LOVES them, they give him crazy eyes, lol) and/or use whole foods as treats.

But yes - my point is (I tend to ramble, sorry!) that Jack will definitely respond to a food - it's just important to experiment! And he's lucky that you're taking the time to pay attention to what his needs will be and try different things for your boy.









Oh! One more thought. I used to overfeed Charlie. It definitely contributed to his runny poops (and thank goodness for this board to give me that tip). I was feeding exactly by the recommendations on the bag but that was just too much for Charlie! So he had these giant, soft stools. The combination of switching him to Blue Buffalo and cutting way down on the food he gets made a HUGE difference.


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Well I really hope it works for your and Jacks sake. I will say though that at his age, that seems like a lOT of calories a day for a pup his age. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts getting fat. 

And hopefully his poops will get under control with the food increase. Since they get BETTER with the food DECREASE.


----------



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

Tracy
HElP THEN
so 4 cups food and 1/2 can food 2 much a day?
so then 3 and 1/2 wet is enough
but after he eats he is still starving and is licking his bowl clean and then bringing them to me for more LOL he is getting NO SNACKS...

so what is enough I do not want him fat


----------



## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

The only way to know is to try different amounts. If he looses weight on a certain amount he needs more. BUT, if giving him more only gives him pudding poop, that is defeating the purpose. He then either needs to be fed 3 times a day, OR he may need a different food. Sometimes if they are getting pudding poops eating 2 larger meals, if they are fed 3 smaller meals a day instead, it can help then have firmer poops. Or they could just NOT do well on that particular kibble. And a change in brands is the only thing that is needed. 

How was his weight BEFORE he was boarded? Was he at a good weight then? 

Also a lot of times 6 months is the "magic age" when they no longer need the "puppy amount". For instance, with Siren I reduced her kibble by 1 cup at 6 months. It didn't cause her to loose weight and she continues to grow, but it kept her from getting to "fat" as they generally aren't growing as fast after 6 months of age as they were for the first 6 months of their lives.

Acting like they are "starving" means NOTHING. Some dogs just LIKE to eat, and would eat 12 cups a day if you let them. That is why the OWNER needs to figure out just how much the dog NEEDS rather than going by how much the dog WANTS.

My belief is that if you HAVE to feed something like Pumpkin to keep their pops firm, you are just using a "band aid" rather than finding a CURE to the problem. (This is of course providing that the dog does NOT have some sort of medical issue". )

As far as the vet, keep in mind that most vets really don't have a CLUE about canine nutrition.(I obviously don't know YOUR vet, maybe she does know about that and maybe she doesn't.) Does your vet know how many calories a cup the kibble you are feeding has? Has she ever suggested that he MIGHT be getting too much kibble and THAT is itself could be the reason for the partially pudding poops?


----------



## Tula (May 21, 2004)

I'm sorry, I didn't see the other thread. What tests has this pup already had done? What foods have you fed so far for this pup and if there are several, why did you switch?


----------

