# Breeder health guarantees



## Smiley4896 (Sep 10, 2012)

I'm still looking for a breeder, had it narrowed down but when I reviewed their contracts/health guarantees they were crossed off the list. I would appreciate any help you could offer. 

I've seen breeders offer a 1 year guarantee on the hips. I've read that OFA doesn't certify until the pup is 2 years old. Is this a deal breaker?

Also breeders are willing to replace the pup in case of HD but you have to return the original dog. This kind of turns me off- how can a breeder expect you to just return the dog for a new one?

The breeders I researched all seem to have quality dogs, titled parents, good temperament but the health guarantees threw me off. Am I reading too much into this?

I want a healthy dog but on the other hand I know there are no guarantees in life.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know it is more important to me to know the breeder as a person and what they are doing to ensure healthy dogs in the first place. I honestly don't think guarantees mean so much; they are living breathing things - not machines. 

That said - I like what my breeder did --- if we get any dysplasia by age of 2, I get a refund. I keep the dog. But I know what she puts into her dogs and probably would not "cash in" if we did have a problem.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I found the breeder that I'm going through and to be honest I didn't even read what the guarantee is, I know there is one, but I don't think I would ever use it, if it meant returning my dog. I agree that if you know that the breeder is doing right by the breed, then you have a better chance, but nothing is 100%. I would take responsibility for the dog and not leave it up to the breeder anyway....it is my dog and its my dog till the end.


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## Omar Little (Feb 24, 2013)

Ask Tommy Boy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEB7WbTTlu4


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

In my opinion* most* are not worth much. 

Breeders know that the majority of owners are not going to return the puppy for a replacement or refund. And why would I want another dog from the same breeder if the first one is not healthy?

Most health guarantees I have seen do not mention a refund at all and especially not for major genetic issues, mostly it's just for hips. 

You'll see breeders claim *"Health Is Guaranteed"* doesn't mean much in my experience


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

One of the breeders I've looked at (and am still considering in the future) has a 2 year guarantee on hips, and gives a replacement puppy if yours becomes dysplastic and allows you to keep your current dog (you receive your replacement after proof of spay/neutering of the dysplastic dog). They are out there.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Heidigsd said:


> You'll see breeders claim *"Health Is Guaranteed"* doesn't mean much in my experience


Personally, if I saw that claim in any 'guarantee' I'd run fast and far. It just smacks of snake oil salesman to me. Good breeders will tell you upfront that they can't guarantee any such thing and will never imply it - their contract is to give you some recourse and support if your puppy is one of the unfortunate ones.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

The one year thing would not bother me. Many reasons for one year.... maybe the breeder wants to know the status before breeding that female again.

The "return your dog" thing is, IMO, bogus. What in the world would the breeder do with a bunch of returned dysplastic dogs? 

Now.... if they were just willing to have the dog returned in case the owner does not want to keep the original dysplastic dog and the replacement..... then that I support.

JMO.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Mine came with a "3 day health guarantee" basically you had three days to take the dog to the Vet to look them over and if the vet found a problem you could get a full refund. After that there is a year and half "replacement" for HD but honeslty I would never return the dog at that point. 

*These were the important parts to me:*
*1) They will always take the dog back if you can't care for it anymore*
*2) They will stop breeding the Dam if HD shows up in a pup and will move her in to being a service dog, they don't own the Sire.*

One thing to watch out for is with the contracts some breeders don't allow you to spay/neuter your pet until after the guarantee is over. They want to be able to potentially breed them if they have to take them back. If you plan to get a female and spay her it is much better to do it before the first heat.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

After going through what I did, and witnessing other owners struggle with breeders, I would never accept a contract that said anything less than complete refund for congenital problems before age two years. I would never give my dog back to the breeder and I would never allow them to put me on a waiting list and choose my puppy for me. I have a friend who is still waiting after 4 years for her replacement puppy. 

All contracts are negotiable. If you don't like something about the contract, tell the breeder and if he won't negotiate--move on. Or consider getting a dog over a year of age. Most problems can be diagnosed by that age.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Most good breeders offer a guarantee only because in America the buyers require a warranty/guarantee on anything they buy over $10. So its kind of marketing but also helps knowing the breeder will take responsibility for a mistake or a genetic weakness.

Most of them will either require the return of the dog for a replacement (I don't know anyone that would do that) or like in the case of a previous poster will give you a replacement puppy in addition to you keeping the first one (well what if you can't have another dog? who cares at that point?).

Most of them aren't worth the paper they're printed on because after a year not many people will part with a dog or want another one. Also...some breeders will just put down the dogs that are returned to them, others will find them homes that are willing to put up with HD. I wouldn't put too much weight into a guarantee...I'm pretty sure no one in Europe even thinks about offering such a thing.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I wouldn't say 'run' from any breeder that offers a health guarantee! A hip for one year is worthless, though. Also, a lot of breeders say you have to return the dog in question because they know you won't. My breeder is actually honest. Her guarantee is simple. You keep the original dog, and get a 'replacement' dog. I don't know what's 'not' covered, but it can't be much. She's honest. There's no feeding you a line, no trying to 'get out of it'... nothing. THIS is a responsible breeder. Breeders who breed for the love of the dogs and who care about their lines and the people who are bringing these dogs into their homes aren't going to try to pull a fast one. I've read a lot of these guarantees, and every time I'm thankful that my breeder isn't pulling any punches. People who snickered when I said that I had a good guarantee, who said it was worthless.... I've got news for ya! It wasn't, it isn't. I can in good conscience recommend her to anyone because of the care and concern she's shown since day one, and the honesty I've now come to expect from any breeder with any integrity.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

That is correct, in Europe (and pretty much every other area of the world except North America), there is no such thing as a guarantee or warranty on puppies. It is understood that people are buying living creatures, not widgets made to specs in a factory, and as such nothing can be fully controlled or predicted. It is expected that breeders will do their best to reduce the chance of problems, and buyers are expected to do their research to ensure that the breeder they have chosen meets their expectations in that area, and then everyone takes their chances. If something goes wrong, as it sometimes will when working with living creatures no matter how many steps are taken to try to prevent that from happening, it is unfortunate but no one is considered to blame or to be responsible or to be owed anything. Stuff happens.

Over here, buyers expect them so breeders have to offer them. Huge cultural difference as here people expect warranties on everything and the general feeling is that if something does go wrong the breeder is to blame and the buyer is owed something. Since they're expected, breeders offer them. And the prices on pups are higher because of it. 

As a breeder, I offer a warranty. As a buyer, I never consider a warranty. I buy the dog I want from the bloodlines I want from the breeder I want and the rest doesn't matter. If things don't work out, as they certainly didn't with our last purchase from another breeder, that's the way it goes. A huge disappointment and heartbreak, but no one's fault. No one is to blame and I'm not owed anything. There just are no guarantees on living beings.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

My breeder has the 1 year hip guarantee for a replacement dog that I think is pretty pointless, but I really like her 100% promise to take the dog back at any time if I cannot take care of it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jag said:


> I wouldn't say 'run' from any breeder that offers a health guarantee! A hip for one year is worthless, though. Also, a lot of breeders say you have to return the dog in question because they know you won't. My breeder is actually honest. Her guarantee is simple. You keep the original dog, and get a 'replacement' dog. I don't know what's 'not' covered, but it can't be much. She's honest. There's no feeding you a line, no trying to 'get out of it'... nothing. THIS is a responsible breeder. Breeders who breed for the love of the dogs and who care about their lines and the people who are bringing these dogs into their homes aren't going to try to pull a fast one. I've read a lot of these guarantees, and every time I'm thankful that my breeder isn't pulling any punches. People who snickered when I said that I had a good guarantee, who said it was worthless.... I've got news for ya! It wasn't, it isn't. I can in good conscience recommend her to anyone because of the care and concern she's shown since day one, and the honesty I've now come to expect from any breeder with any integrity.


It's great that you have that kind of guarantee...but in all seriousness 90% of people wouldn't be able to claim anything on it as well. If you're talking about a year guarantee, or even a 2 year guarantee...I know I wouldn't have wanted another dog while mine was that young. I also know that I probably wouldn't want another dog related to any of that breeders lines at that point because they have a chance of getting HD. Most likely within that year or two you'd end up getting a dog out of the same dam or a daughter of the dam and then your risk of HD is still there.

How do you know your guarantee isn't worthless? If you don't claim anything (because your pup is healthy) it technically is worthless. You paid a premium (like Chris stated) and aren't going to get anything out of it. Sure you have peace of mind, but how much is that worth to you if you truly trust the breeder.

My next dog will be out of a very good friend of mine's kennel. I trust them, I see them weekly in training, and I don't really need a guarantee from them because I'd never collect on it anyways. I know they're doing things right and don't need it written down on any piece of paper. The likelihood of gaining something from any guarantee is very small, which is why its very close to pointless IMO. If I could get $500 off a puppy because it didn't come with a guarantee...I'd do it in a heartbeat.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> ...... As a buyer, I never consider a warranty. I buy the dog I want from the bloodlines I want from the breeder I want and the rest doesn't matter. ....


Of the last 2 puppies I bought, one was strictly a "hand-shake deal" and the other I never saw the warranty until later.... and could not tell you what it says. It still sits in the manilla envelope it came in.
I got the puppies I wanted, from people with whom I was comfortable dealing.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It's great that you have that kind of guarantee...but in all seriousness 90% of people wouldn't be able to claim anything on it as well. If you're talking about a year guarantee, or even a 2 year guarantee...I know I wouldn't have wanted another dog while mine was that young. I also know that I probably wouldn't want another dog related to any of that breeders lines at that point because they have a chance of getting HD. Most likely within that year or two you'd end up getting a dog out of the same dam or a daughter of the dam and then your risk of HD is still there.
> 
> How do you know your guarantee isn't worthless? If you don't claim anything (because your pup is healthy) it technically is worthless. You paid a premium (like Chris stated) and aren't going to get anything out of it. Sure you have peace of mind, but how much is that worth to you if you truly trust the breeder.
> 
> My next dog will be out of a very good friend of mine's kennel. I trust them, I see them weekly in training, and I don't really need a guarantee from them because I'd never collect on it anyways. I know they're doing things right and don't need it written down on any piece of paper. The likelihood of gaining something from any guarantee is very small, which is why its very close to pointless IMO. If I could get $500 off a puppy because it didn't come with a guarantee...I'd do it in a heartbeat.


I'm not talking about just HD. Also, what if you had the option to wait to get another pup? If that pup could be from a breeding that had neither of the parents of your pup? What if it went beyond what was genetic? Would any of that change your mindset on it being 'worthless'? I do truly trust my breeder. I know that nearly all guarantees are against genetic things... but if you go beyond that... and go beyond the breeder 'choosing' the pair you'd get a replacement from...go beyond the time frame in which you had to get the replacement... then that makes things a little different, right? 

Chris, I agree with you that there's little control over what nature does. Good breeders can only do what they can do. They are not a god. Some things are just out of their hands. I'm certainly not saying that breeders should be able to control everything. However, there are guarantees that are offered that really are not worth anything. Like hips for a year. Like having to return the dog that the family is already attached to, etc. For those, I'd think it would be more honest to just not offer any guarantee.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Jag said:


> I wouldn't say 'run' from any breeder that offers a health guarantee!


If this is from my post, I wasn't saying to run from a health guarantee. There's usually something along those lines in a puppy contract. 

I would run if I see the phrase 'Health is guaranteed' explicitly in the contract (or webpage). I looked at a number of puppy contracts while looking for my current dog, and that phrase popped up frequently on sites/contracts that ended up being BYB or 'commercial' sites. It's a very open-ended statement and implies, if you don't know any better, and oh so many people don't, that the total health is guaranteed. I never saw it on known reputable breeder puppy contracts. Those tended to simply list specific defects and remedies the breeder would offer.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jag said:


> I'm not talking about just HD. Also, what if you had the option to wait to get another pup? If that pup could be from a breeding that had neither of the parents of your pup? What if it went beyond what was genetic? Would any of that change your mindset on it being 'worthless'? I do truly trust my breeder. I know that nearly all guarantees are against genetic things... but if you go beyond that... and go beyond the breeder 'choosing' the pair you'd get a replacement from...go beyond the time frame in which you had to get the replacement... then that makes things a little different, right?


Like what? Like if your dog gets parvo because you took it somewhere too early and then want your money back because its YOUR fault the dog died? Or that you get to wait 10 years for another dog and can just call up the breeder at any point in time and request a dog from an upcoming litter? I don't know...that stuff just sounds fishy to me and says a lot about the customer who IMO would be taking advantage of a breeder's good intentions.

Sure there are some genetic diseases that might show up later on, like DM for instance, and that would be the breeders "fault" but there aren't many more things that you can really pinpoint on the breeder. And if as a customer you want to hold a breeder accountable for ALL problems that you run into with your dog...I question your ethics/morals.

I'll still stand by my statement that a guarantee/warranty is useless/worthless if you truly TRUST the breeder you're dealing with. You really can't quantify all the things you respect in your breeder, and its great that your breeder offers this type of guarantee and it leads you to trust them more. I have a breeder I trust without even reading a guarantee, I've watched the dogs work, I know the people, I've seen what they produce. I don't need them to tell me they'll replace my puppy for any and all issues that come up (I wouldn't even expect them to).

If you can quantify the warranty...so the puppy is going for $1000 and there is a warranty on top of it for $500-$1000 dollars. Depending on what the warranty offers any reasonable person would have to consider it. But at the end of the day...if you trust the person, and see that they have that much belief in what they're doing, you shouldn't need a warranty and just be able to buy the dog without it (most breeders don't do this).


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

stealthq said:


> If this is from my post, I wasn't saying to run from a health guarantee. There's usually something along those lines in a puppy contract.
> 
> I would run if I see the phrase 'Health is guaranteed' explicitly in the contract (or webpage). I looked at a number of puppy contracts while looking for my current dog, and that phrase popped up frequently on sites/contracts that ended up being BYB or 'commercial' sites. It's a very open-ended statement and implies, if you don't know any better, and oh so many people don't, that the total health is guaranteed. I never saw it on known reputable breeder puppy contracts. Those tended to simply list specific defects and remedies the breeder would offer.


I am confused by this. I've seen a lot of 'health guarantee' statements on breeder websites, but then they have a page (usually) which has their guarantee spelled out...what is covered specifically. Are you talking about breeders who don't list what's actually covered?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Jag said:


> .... However, there are guarantees that are offered that really are not worth anything. Like hips for a year. ..


And see, I think that is a perfectly legitimate clause. If you OFA or A stamp your dog at 12 months.... you know with pretty good accuracy what the hip status is. And then the breeder (and the owner) has that information earlier and can use it to make future breeding (or training) decisions.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol, stealthq - I met one of those people! They were bragging about the puppy they were getting, and telling me how great it was that it was guaranteed to be healthy. How could they think a breeder could promise perfect health? Sad but true.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Like what? Like if your dog gets parvo because you took it somewhere too early and then want your money back because its YOUR fault the dog died? Or that you get to wait 10 years for another dog and can just call up the breeder at any point in time and request a dog from an upcoming litter? I don't know...that stuff just sounds fishy to me and says a lot about the customer who IMO would be taking advantage of a breeder's good intentions.
> 
> Sure there are some genetic diseases that might show up later on, like DM for instance, and that would be the breeders "fault" but there aren't many more things that you can really pinpoint on the breeder. And if as a customer you want to hold a breeder accountable for ALL problems that you run into with your dog...I question your ethics/morals.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you'd think it was 'worthless' if you trusted the breeder... unless you expect that breeder to be able to prevent any and all acts of nature. Trust me, I expected nothing of the sort from my breeder, and my respect has little to do with the guarantee. I'm more than happy to share my experiences with my breeder to anyone who's interested in getting a puppy. However, it sounds like you're just picking by saying "you haven't quantified why you trust your breeder". Neither have you. I'm not asking you to, either. I didn't pay for any warranty. Of course I wouldn't expect anyone to replace a pup due to my own negligence. I'm sure there are those that would. However, I followed all of my breeder's instructions... including not taking the pup out until after vaccines were done. I remain in frequent contact with my breeder, also. Not because I "have to", but because I like to. I have no worry about hips, because my pup comes from a long line of good hips. I'm not worried about the genetic things that are routinely screened for, because those screening were done. I'm not worried about temperament or lack of work ability because, again, those things are in the lines. Yes, I may be more gun-shy because of the mess I had with my bitch. However, that was discussed at length with the breeder before I placed a deposit. I trust my breeder because she's a trust worthy person. To explain how I came to that conclusion would not only be way off base from this thread, but IMO doesn't need to be explained. I've spoken with my breeder more than my family since I decided to get Grim. I'm satisfied with my conclusion. Hope that's satisfactory to you.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

gagsd said:


> And see, I think that is a perfectly legitimate clause. If you OFA or A stamp your dog at 12 months.... you know with pretty good accuracy what the hip status is. And then the breeder (and the owner) has that information earlier and can use it to make future breeding (or training) decisions.


Then what is the point of doing it at 2 years old? Why would it be said that there can be changes between those done before 2 years and those done at 2 years?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I kind of don't understand the 'not wanting another puppy from that breeder anyway' mentality. You (generic 'you'  ) researched them carefully, they health test, title, have great lines with 6 generations of OFA ... but things can still happen because nothing is perfect or a given when dealing with living creatures. Even great breeders can breed a dysplastic pup at some time. They are still great breeders, though. It depends on how they handle it.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Jag said:


> I am confused by this. I've seen a lot of 'health guarantee' statements on breeder websites, but then they have a page (usually) which has their guarantee spelled out...what is covered specifically. Are you talking about breeders who don't list what's actually covered?


Not exactly. Some of the best breeders out there have sites that just show a couple of dogs and a phone number for more information. For the more developed sites, most have the details listed somewhere. If they didn't, they could be liable for just about anything after saying there's a guarantee. It's in how it's advertised. 

On the one hand, you will have the sites that have 'Health is Guaranteed!', or something similar in a place designed to attract the eye, usually on the main page and puppy page with a link to more info, sometimes in legalese. It's designed to make you feel like all health is guaranteed while providing them with a legal out. Knowledgeable people look for and follow that link and read the fine print. Lots of people don't and make the obvious assumption.

Then you have the sites where they don't have a flashy catch phrase about guarantees or warrantees anywhere. Instead, there a page where they talk about how their breeding practices are designed to produce the best puppies possible (whatever qualities are most important to them). They might have information about the most prevalent health problems in the breed, how to recognize and prevent\treat them. Somewhere in there, they will talk about their puppies and say how although they do their best to raise the healthiest puppies they can, health issues happen even with the best breeder and they describe the health guarantee, going into detail about what they will do with and/or for you if you have a problem. Completely different approach. Still doesn't guarantee  a great breeder, of course. Some of the BYB/mill people spoof a good site really well.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jag, I don't get why you think I'm attacking you or needing to be satisfied with how you feel about your breeder. I'm simply stating that no matter how great a guarantee, it should almost be an after thought. I'm trying to get the point across that no matter for what, how long, what the conditions are, it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter because you should have enough trust in the breeder and enough knowledge of their lines that you shouldn't need on in the first place (much like Europe does it).

That way its not a safety net for the breeder in the case that they do make a mistake. There won't be any..."My breeder was great, when my first pup came down with HD, they replaced it right away! You should definitely go to them." It should be..."I've had X amount of dog from this breeder, I know a lot of their puppies, and none of them have had HD."

And like Chris said...all the guarantee does in most cases is add cost to the puppy. So instead of dogs going for $1000 we now have dogs going for $1500-$2000 because the breeder wants to cover themselves in case someone does come back and request a replacement puppy. And yeah...you can talk all about how they shouldn't be in it for the money, but when you're spending 30k+ to title/train/health cert a single dog....every little bit helps and having to give away free puppies isn't in anyone's best interest.

So for the OP who is worried about all the differences in warranties, it shouldn't matter. Find a breeder you like and don't worry about the warranty. It should be the last thing that gets brought up when it comes to the dog. The reason I'm bringing up the fact that you should quantify how much a warranty is worth is because you end up over paying for a product that you have no need to overpay for if you trust that the breeder is producing genetically sound dogs.

It's like those $50 replacement/no questions asked warranties sold by electronics stores these days...they make a killing off of them. They know that the chance of something breaking in the first few years is maybe 1%...so for every dollar they collect for the warranty they probably pay out about 1 penny. Same thing with dogs...the chances of having a genetic problem in a puppy from a reputable breeder with years of knowledge and experience is very small, so why pay for something you don't need?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I understand what Stealth is saying.

Many take the word "guarantee" to mean that they can be 100% assured that no problems will occur, because they are "guaranteed" not to occur. That is in fact what the word actually means.

What breeders offer is better termed a warranty than a guarantee. No different than a warranty on a car or a microwave really. They can NOT guarantee that no problem will happen, but will provide a warranty if it does. Difference of course being if something goes wrong with a manufactured inanimate object, someone did screw up and is at fault. Not true with living organisms.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Galathiel said:


> I kind of don't understand the 'not wanting another puppy from that breeder anyway' mentality. You (generic 'you'  ) researched them carefully, they health test, title, have great lines with 6 generations of OFA ... but things can still happen because nothing is perfect or a given when dealing with living creatures. Even great breeders can breed a dysplastic pup at some time. They are still great breeders, though. It depends on how they handle it.


Well yeah...but in theory the dam carries a gene that can cause the bad hips. So why, knowing that this female has a chance of producing bad hips would you go back to her? Is this the only line of well-bred/good-tempered GSDs out there? Would you rather go with a dam that doesn't have any record of HD puppies or a dam that has produced some?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jag said:


> Then what is the point of doing it at 2 years old? Why would it be said that there can be changes between those done before 2 years and those done at 2 years?



Good question. A lot of people don't. My last x-rays were a-stamps that were taken when the dog was 18 months. IMO unless the dog is already borderline there's not going to be a change (and I check at 6-7 months so I knew he wasn't).


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I think most of us are smart enough to realize that puppies are living creatures and that stuff happens and accept it. I didn't make my decision on where to get a puppy based on a "guarantee" because when I get a puppy it's here to stay and not going anywhere.

But despite years of research and recommendations I still ended up with a sick dog. I don't regret getting either of my girls but I do regret that they were/are sick. Having to deal with these health issues is heartbreaking at times and I wish more breeders would take this into consideration when they continue breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred. 

I don't even know how the average dog owner is supposed to be able to figure out what lines produce what when so much is kept secret when it comes to our breed. *Some* breeders/stud owners aren't exactly forthcoming with that information.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

I'd agree, if by 'we' you mean people on this board. In real life, most of the people I know are clueless about such things, at least in regards to pets. They have no problem reading the fine print at the car dealership, but when buying (or rescuing) a pet? Not so much.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Jag said:


> Then what is the point of doing it at 2 years old? Why would it be said that there can be changes between those done before 2 years and those done at 2 years?


Because in the USA, the accepted custom is OFA, and OFA will not certify hips until the dog is 24 months. I think OFA states X-rays done at 12 months are 90% reliable.

In other countries, final certification is given at 12 months.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

martemchik said:


> Well yeah...but in theory the dam carries a gene that can cause the bad hips. So why, knowing that this female has a chance of producing bad hips would you go back to her? Is this the only line of well-bred/good-tempered GSDs out there? Would you rather go with a dam that doesn't have any record of HD puppies or a dam that has produced some?


HD is polygenic. And studies would indicate also multi-factorial.

Most likely every GSD carries at least some of the genes that produce HD. It is when enough of them from the sire and dam, or just the right combination of them from the sire and dam, come together that HD results. And that means every GSD probably will produce it at one time or another if bred. 

Eliminate every GSD who's has some "genes for HD" or who ever produced it from breeding and you just eliminated every GSD. 

Bottom line is that it doesn't work nearly as simply as you stated.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

gagsd said:


> Because in the USA, the accepted custom is OFA, and OFA will not certify hips until the dog is 24 months. I think OFA states X-rays done at 12 months are 90% reliable.
> 
> In other countries, final certification is given at 12 months.


Thank you for that info.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I hate the phrase "health guarantee"...my contract has always stated that no one can guarantee health...that a breeder does their best through research and experience to breed a healthy dog, and that a warranty is offered. There is pretty much a standard contract that most breeders use, with adjustments specific to the individual breeder. 

We all know that bad hips, elbows, EPI, DM, hemangio, and a number of other issues are common in this breed. The buyer, when he decides on a GSD, should be educated - either through research, or by the breeders he deals with - as to the risk in the breed for these issues. He must assume some responsibility himself, for wanting to acquire a GSD, in spite of these possibilities, and understand that there is a risk and no one can guarantee that they can eliminate that risk....he should not hold a breeder responsible for any of these issues based on the knowledge that some issue is possible no matter how careful both he and the breeder have been in choosing/producing the puppy!

There are also temperament issues that are genetic - but that is a whole 'nother topic!!!!

Personally I am totally paranoid about what I call 'high risk' breedings. People here are much more concerned with hips and guarantees/warranties than in Europe. A much higher priority is placed on hip production here than there, as working homes there will more commonly euthanize a youngster whose hip radiograph poorly, accepting that risk for hips is equal to risk for working ability or ball drive. Many European breeders will replace a dysplastic puppy, though, I think there is some law or SV rule about it....I imported a pup in June of 2011, and I was told if she failed hips/elbows she would be replaced. I paid German market price for this pup, the shipping and fees brought it up to a typical US price. Luckily, she was prelimed OFA Good/Normal, and SV 'a' normal hips and elbows....another friend got a pup from Maineiche [paid American market price] quite a few years ago, she failed OFA and was sent a puppy, who had OFA Good hips, but was very nervy. Another friend was given a replacement pup from Dalenburghutte....no one wanted the original dog back either. 

The bottom line is that here, no one intentionally does a breeding that they think will give them health problems.....some may not be knowledgable enough to recognize the possibility - but they go into it thinking they are doing a 'safe' breeding.

As far as accepting a replacement pup, most breeders I know do feel badly if they have produced a dysplastic dog....and certainly do not want to repeat it! Unless it is a repeat breeding, I would not hesitate if I liked another litter being produced by the breeder.

As far as accepting back puppies when the owner has an issue, I also think most breeders I know of will take back or help the owner rehome the dog if something happens that the original owner cannot keep the dog. I have gotten a couple back due to family issues [new baby, conflict between husband and wife] no questions asked....rehomed a couple and kept one that I just got back - he is in training for now - I was tickled to get him as I do not have a young dog right now because of my accident...

Lee


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

There is no "guarantee" in LIFE with anything.......
We (as breeders) cannot *guarantee* there will be no health problems with any puppy that is bred. We can only offer a "warranty" in the possibility that something does arise....
NO ONE should ever be faced with the "return" of their beloved companion, in order for the "warranty" to be valid.....JMO.

Our warranty is very basic....we warranty against hip & elbow dysplasia. We request that the dog be xrayed by 26 mos....and promote having them xrayed by 13 mos for SV certification. (this way we know earlier on).
We will replace our dogs/puppies ...period......

*ALSO.....just because one puppy falls "ill" or dysplastic......does not mean any other dog/puppy from the breeder is not worth owning.* If everyone who has had an ill dog felt this way....there would be NO DOGS of ANY breed worth owning.....JMHO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> *ALSO.....just because one puppy falls "ill" or dysplastic......does not mean any other dog/puppy from the breeder is not worth owning.* If everyone who has had an ill dog felt this way....there would be NO DOGS of ANY breed worth owning.....JMHO.


I'm not saying that no one should then buy from that breeder, I'm just saying that personally, I would probably want to go and find another breeder that would fit my needs just as well as the other one but I'd PERSONALLY feel better about the chances of not getting HD.

I owned a Toyota a few years ago, the car started to break down way before it should have IMO (4 years old), and I was pumping a lot of money into the car I shouldn't have (especially with Toyota's track record for quality). I made a personal decision not to ever buy a Toyota again...they lost me as a customer. Is there that big of a difference between a Honda/Toyota/Nissan? Not in my opinion, they cost about the same and offer about the same for it.

We speak of lines and breeders as if there is only one good one out there. Its like the one you chose is the only one out there that can possibly provide you with the puppy you're looking for. Sure...there are people like Lee and Robin who look for certain lines and grandparents/great grandparents in their dogs in order to work those into their lines, but for the "pet" owning population...it doesn't really matter that much that dog X is in the pedigree along with dog Y.

I get it...not completely the breeders fault that a dog ended up with HD. But if it did, why is it wrong for someone to make the decision not to go with that breeder for their next pup? What happens if lightning strikes twice and the replacement puppy has HD as well? Is that where we draw the line on when its okay to pick another breeder? I don't expect everyone to share this opinion, but it makes sense, doesn't it?

Like currently...I was expecting a female puppy out of a friend of mine's bitch and Nick del Lupo Nero. The timing wasn't exactly right for me, but she didn't expect to breed the bitch again for another 2-3 years and we want to have a puppy before that. So we were in line for a female. She ended up having 3 boys. The pups so far look good and they plan on redoing the breeding again next year. Now, if I don't get a female puppy out of that litter, I'll look for another breeder that breeds the type of dog that I want. I'm not going to go to a lesser breeder, but I'll find someone that also suits my needs. And yes...this is a good friend, instructor, mentor, that I would have to "turn my back on."

I just don't get this whole...only one breeder in the world doing it right concept.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've bought a dog with a contract and health warranty and one without. The paperwork had no importance on my decision to buy the dogs. If I think health is a priority, I do my research up front and look at the lines and how they have produced, not just the hip scores of the sire and dam. I do not require that a breeder have first right of refusal, "replace" a dog with a health problem, or offer any sort of reimbursement. I don't care if they do offer those things but would probably not make good on them anyway. I would never expect a breeder to reimburse me for a dog that I decided later on I didn't want (for any reason). If I am not willing to own a dog that might have a health problem later on, then I don't buy the dog, period. If I have any doubts about the health of the lines, no one is holding a gun to my head and making me buy the dog. I get pretty attached to my dogs and would likely not want to give it back (and don't have room for the "replacement") even if he did have a health problem.


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