# Stop jumping on the couch..



## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

So whenever we first sit down to watch TV he thinks it's time to bother us. He jumps on the coach ontop of us with his front paws.

We tell him off, 80% of the time he doesn't listen. We nudge him after we say off and then praise him when he hits the ground. That works 30% of the time. The other time when we nudge him he thinks its wrestling time! So he bites at our feet or keeps jumping on.

This dog is out of control with the biting. He made my wife cry again last night because hes way too powerful for her, shes a small thing. So when he bites me I can remove him from the situtation by the collar if he doesn't listen but if she tries to, he just overpowers her. So she gets fed up with it and really hates the dog the rest of the day.

There really is no difference with us. We each feed him once a day with NILIF. She walks him in the morning, I walk him at night. (She can't walk him anymore starting last week since he can pull her, we are going to use the prong this week so he doesn't pull anymore). Both do obedience, together and seperate.

He bites us both when we play but if we are doing nothing with him, he'll leave me alone but always still bug the **** out of her. If I sit down alone on the couch, he whines and leaves me alone. If she sits down, he bites and jumps up.

He doesn't do it to random people that come over my house. He's a freaking angel to new guests but my good friends whom are over once a week, he does the same to them.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

Can I get a muzzle and then play on the ground with him, would he get the point after a bunch of sessions? lol


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

If you don't want to be bothered by you pup, put him in a crate or Excercise pen. If you are telling your dog off, he is getting the attention he wants even though it is negative attention. 

Before you and your wife want to settle down and watch TV, how much excercise has this young dog gotten? My dogs are always very happy to settle down at night because they are tired. Walking is not excercise for a GSD, running, playing two ball, running is excercise.

This is a training thing with the pup and your wife, the pup sees her as the weaker of you two and so has designated her as a lower playmate. She needs to step up, putting a muzzle on your dog is not needed. Size has nothing to do with getting dogs to listen to someone. My mom is only 5 ft tall, all of my dogs listen to her.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm not putting him in a crate when I want to watch TV. I'm sure he can learn not to bother us when we are watching TV. Putting him in a crate isn't a solution. He may not be tired out everyday or properly trained in some aspects but even after obedience classes and loads of playtime with another dog, he will still come "bother" us if we sit down on the ground or on the couch in the same room. He won't pass up a play time.

As for the size. I know it has nothing to do with learning but what I said is that it's a big hazard and danger to my wife to handle him when he is OUT of control because he over powers her. When he gets in his biting fits where nothing will stop him from toys, to treats, to walks, to going outside. I have to physically move him to his crate. My wife cannot do that. She has to run into another room and shut the door. What kind of life is that? So until the dog IS under control, size is very much a problem.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I see Lex is eight months, and I'm curious to know if this is still the nipping stage (cause I sort of hoped it would be over by eight months) so I am watching the responses to see if someone answers that question (hint-hint)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: wrennyI'm not putting him in a crate when I want to watch TV. I'm sure he can learn not to bother us when we are watching TV. Putting him in a crate isn't a solution. He may not be tired out everyday or properly trained in some aspects but even after obedience classes and loads of playtime with another dog, he will still come "bother" us if we sit down on the ground or on the couch in the same room. He won't pass up a play time.


I think you may find that indeed a crate IS part of the solution.

Successfully raising a puppy is mostly habit forming. Dogs are always learning, especially puppies. We must control their environment so they learn what we want them to learn, and don't learn what we don't want them to learn.

Crates are valuable because they prevent the dog from learning bad habits. You don't want him to "bother" you when you're watching TV. Yet you have a young dog who like all young dogs is extremely exhuberant and playful, has a lot of energy, and doesn't yet have a good degree of self control. Self control comes with maturity, life experience and training... all things a young dog is lacking.

Everytime he gets to "bother" you, it reinforces his behavior. You are allowing him to form a habit that you do not want. He can't "bother" you when he's in a crate. It prevents him from building a bad habit.

By doing this as you are, you're setting the pup up to fail. He isn't yet mentally capable of behaving as you want, and you're allowing him many opportunities to form a habitual behavioral pattern that you do not want.

Put him in a crate.

It is certainly a MUCH better solution than a muzzle. A muzzle may prevent injury to your wife, but it will not help instil in the pup the behavior that you want. It is a bandaid, not a cure. The only cure is to help the dog form good habits, and prevent him from forming bad ones. This will not be accomplished with a muzzle, but can only be accomplished by controlling the dog's environment so he learns the lessons you want him to learn. Also, a muzzle will cause the dog to build up frustration and anxiety, which will lead to even more out of control behavior.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Wrenny,

To expand a bit on what Chris said above, proper interaction with a young powerful dog is KEY. You cannot properly interact and shape behavior and manners positively if you are so frustrated you want to scream or your wife has to be in another room. Please please PLEASE try this for the next few days...

1. When you get home, he needs exercise and a walk will not be enough. Get a 22-30 foot long line attached to a flat collar on him and drive him to a field that is fenced or far enough away from traffic. Get a ball launcher of some kind. I like this - http://www.leerburg.com/898.htm a go frr ball. It gets a ball out a good 30-40 yards. Once he has run out to get it, turn around, call him to you (with your come command) and then run in the opposite direction. When he gets to you give him a bite on another ball or tug. Repeat about 15 times. You are working on your recall command while "blowing out" all of that energy. This takes 10 minutes or so. 

2. Then, take him for a wallk to clear his mind. Put the prong on him and let him self correct. Don't yank on him with the prong, but relax and enjoy a walk with him while being in control. This will take another 15 minutes or so. 

3. Then, take 5-10 minutes and work on some OB with food rewards while he's hungry. Sits, downs, comes etc. 

4. Now feed him.

This 30-35 minutes of time with him will even him out some. Then, when you finally get to relax for the night when he comes up to you ignore him. DO NOT PET, SCOLD, PUSH HIM OFF, NOTHING! The only way he gets any affection or attention is on your terms. When he contains himself and sits patiently in front of you, then you pet him with slow long strokes on his chest and sides. Calm voice, calm touching. If he ignores and keeps pestering you crate him. Start over in a half hour and try again. You deserve a life and the pup deserves calm proper interaction. Neither one of you can get what you need if you and your wife are frustrated all the time.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

Okay, haven't fully read everything but I just wanted to say the muzzle post was a joke. I wasn't serious.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

Is there a picture of a flat collar? That's not a regular collar right? 

I have a 30ft line but I always have to untangle him. Is that the point of a flat collar to prevent that?


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Nope, sometimes it gets tangled but he'll get through it and ignore it most of the time. A flat collar is just a regular old collar.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm trying to think of a nearby field. The only place we go is the schools on the weekends but during the week that won't happen because there is always people there. We don't have open fields unless I drive about 20-30 minutes.

Still thinking though, I'm sure I can find something and try that routine.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

It's a bit easier now, because all of the soccer and baseball fields are not in use. In late spring, summer and early fall finding an open field gets really challenging because they are all in use. Think if you have any industrial parks or buildings by your home. I was able to find an open industrial lot about a mile away that gets mowed. I use that when the other fields are in use. You'll end up driving around looking for enough field - I did. But I think you will be surprised at how getting his tongue wagging and then a little mental stimulation afterward combined with feeding him will clear his head. It makes my male Diesel a completely different dog.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Wrenny, I do have a suggestion for your wife.......I am not even 5 feet tall and can manage fosters that are well over 100lbs....it is attitude and confidence. It isnt about strength it is about the mental game. Have your wife practice NILIF with him, also, keep a lead on in the house. just a light line that can be stepped on or used as a light correction. And yes a crate is a great solution, I call it a time out and I use it quite a bit with younger dogs. Your wife CAN manage him, honestly, have her get on here and ask some questions herself. The one thing is to turn your nose up and look away when the behavior is bad and then praise when he settles and like John said....nice soothing strokes and goooooood booooyyyy drawn out and soothing voice. Your wife may even want to go to an obedience class with him, she may be amazed at what she could learn to control him.........you never know.......you may have to get another one


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Wrenny,
I sounds like you have a lively, energetic puppy that needs a lot of attention. I'm sitting here with a soon to be 10 & 13 yo. I'd love to have them pestering me to play again.

One thing I remember is a correctly implemented NILIF turns the most insistent puppy right around.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

And now a word from the Dark Side.
I don't believe that you have to have a dog wore slap out for it to be obedient. I don't know if you have one of the European turbo models but it sounds to me like you have a little pack placement problem. I didn't see anything that indicated there were any repercussions for Lex's disobedience. I'm guessing there is no response to the word. "NO!" If not, that can only mean that he's never heard the word or you haven't praised enough, or given enough treats, or clicked enough or ignored him enough. It could also mean that he is ignoring you.
If you allow him to ignore you when you are giving commands, he will ignore you. When they go through hardheaded stages and want to ignore me, I have found using what I call a mini-alpha roll is appropriate. I grab both of their cheeks and we get eye to eye. Don't let him look away. Tell him anything you want, but my favorite is, "I'm the boss, Got it?" They will come away with a different point of view. You will not warp their little pysche. There is nothing wrong with conveying to your dog that you are displeased with his behaviour. If you really want to see NILIF work, use it after this. When the alpha reads the riot act to a pack member, they don't talk and hug it out afterwards. He doesn't apologize.

If you can't bring yourself to do any of this, at least work on obedience that you can do. A down/stay is a down/stay no matter what the circumstances. You have to be able to control something with the dog. At 8 months, however, he's really just entering the fullblown knothead stage and shouldn't really be expected to have bulletproof obedience, IMO, but every little bit helps.
You will have to exert your alpha position on him to include SWMBO.
Just as you would with the dog and kids. There can be no doubt in his mind. 
I must wrap this up because it's time for me to go torture my dog but I've also found that a correction that my dog doesn't associate with me is particularly effective. Just as when a puppy trips and falls and bangs his chin on something he doesn't get up and run away, maybe a small yelp, but he does settle down, becomes less rambunctious and doesn't blame me in the slightest. Mine loved to chew on my feet when I sat down to watch TV. Without a word from me, why once in while that shoe moved very quickly and unexpectedly and popped him right in the nose. He never even glanced up at me, he just stared at the shoe like, "Well ****, that's no fun. I'm gonna go do something else."
Now where did I put that whip......


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

We both do obedience with him. Wife and I both have been to 6 week puppy socialization and 2 weeks in on regular obedience classes. He is the best pup when he is there. He's the best pup when he wants to listen.

He is a great pup 90% of the time. It's just when he gets in these moods that are so random that he won't listen to anyone. 

I've definately been slacking with the outside playtime since it's winter and the snow just now melted from a huge storm so walking was a pain but we did that. Playing outside was another story. So once I find a good park or area, we will be fine.

The thing is I want my wife to do this with him so they can bond more. She doesn't get home until 6:30/7pm so I'll have to nag her to maybe wake up earlier and do some bonding with him in the morning.

Chris, I like the humor but I bet some people are gonna respond to you in a negative fashion. ;p I have no problem posting what I tried with Lex. The first step we did was redirecting to toys. Hes learned the "toy" command and when he bites, this works most of the time. The yelping and ignoring him never worked. He would follow us if we ignored him and keep biting. We've tried gently holding his mouth shut and telling him no bite but that doesn't work. I've never tried a full blown alpha roll and I'm not going to because any type of rough play he sees as more games. There has been a time when he got me outta no where and I socked him outta defensive reaction. I immediately went to apologize but it didn't phase him and he wanted to keep playing. Obviously that isn't a normal occurence.

Also during his biting stuff he always has his red rocket sticking out. Is that a dominant thing or just males have that when excited for any type of play?


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Chris you can absolutely put some pups under your thumb and just quash their exuberance. Yank them, roll them, kick them, and they will comply out of fear eventually. But, some pups are a combination of headstrong, energetic and confident who love the fight. Conflict is fun to them if you let it be. The exercise and training is not meant to make a good dog. It's meant to take the edge off of him in order to shape manners and proper behavior. In time, the exercise is not absolutely always necessary. 

And any time you are available I would love to watch your "pop him in the nose" approach with my male Diesel. The result would be quite entertaining.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am going to say something that may seem a little not dog and a little...I don't know, not nice, but here it goes anyway! 

There is something that I think Adler called the power of tears. BOTH your dog and your wife are getting attention here. Both have a need for attention and both need to get it when doing good. Do that and I bet you'll get some great results. 

Not that what I am suggesting is easy for you to do, no, not at all! But keep that in the back of your head as you work on the dog...because it's not always all about the dog.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

"Chris, I like the humor but I bet some people are gonna respond to you in a negative fashion. "

Haha!! Ya think?


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Yes John,
You're on to me.
I relish the time I can spend beating my dog. Nothing is quite as satisfying as having Mack crawl up to me so that I can kick him. If I could just somehow find a way to keep his ears from sticking up and looking happy and perhaps make his tail tuck all of the time. The main problem is getting him to disobey enough to satisfy my lust for abusing animals. 

And the idea that you have a Leerburg bloodline dog that would bite a stranger who hit him in the nose is indeed impressive. 

"The only thing two trainers agree upon is that the third one is wrong." Unkn


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD The exercise and training is not meant to make a good dog. It's meant to take the edge off of him in order to shape manners and proper behavior. In time, the exercise is not absolutely always necessary.


Exactly. Why do elementary schools have recess once or twice during the day? Because the kids need a break during the day to blow off energy, in order to be able to focus and learn while in class. Why don't high school kids get recess? Because by then they should have the mental maturity, self control and ingrained, long time behavioral patterns to allow them to focus and concentrate for extended periods of time without it.

The same applies to young dogs. The younger the dog, and the more energetic his individual personality, the more exercise he needs in order to blow off steam so as to allow him to be calm, relaxed and focused at other times.

Getting physical with pups and young dogs rarely works unless you get *very* physical and harsh. Less than that, and pushing and pulling and even hitting just feeds them more energy and makes them more crazy as they think you're joining them in a rousing wrestling game. After all, that's what they want and if you were another dog, that's what you'd do! Use enough physical force that it is clearly not able to be misinterpreted as play on your part, and if you used a little too much, or a little too often, now you've damaged your relationship with the dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> Getting physical with pups and young dogs rarely works unless you get *very* physical and harsh. Less than that, and pushing and pulling and even hitting just feeds them more energy and makes them more crazy as they think you're joining them in a rousing wrestling game. After all, that's what they want and if you were another dog, that's what you'd do! Use enough physical force that it is clearly not able to be misinterpreted as play on your part, and if you used a little too much, or a little too often, now you've damaged your relationship with the dog.


I am going through this daily with my 4 year old male Diesel. He was raised exclusively in a kennel and crate. He was not inhibited or ruined in any way in the sport/work sense but he also was not taught any manners in the house. Beyond that, every time in the past he was out of the crate or kennel it was all about him. Combine that with the fact of him being a very young 4 year old mentally and that he's 85 pounds of muscle and power it gets interesting. He has come very far very quickly, but he is one that if you try to push him off and get physical with him it amps him up very high. Ignoring him when he's an idiot, only giving affection for calm submissive behavior, shaping his behavior, exercise and training have done wonders with him.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

Sorry Jean but my wife's tears aren't for attention.









She's very upset that I can control the dog and she can't. She just compares this GSD to her old one which isn't fair since Lex isn't the cuddly calm type(yet).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It's still not so much about the dog though...really. We control how we react to things. And then the cycle begins because what we are reacting to reacts to us. Change your reaction, change what you get. 

So she starts laughing and grabs the ball and tosses it for him-now she's created a game, or gives a command and creates a mini obedience session. 

Instead he looks at her and says what the heck-how do I react to this-and tries to clamber aboard to see what is really wrong with her, up close. He *is* being cuddly, but he's reacting to her weakness with his strength. 

I think you totally get it-you said it isn't fair and it's not. But I do see it-because I am extremely dogcentric in the way I look at things-as her problem and not his. And since we generally (I am tricked daily by my dogs) have the upper hand in terms of rational thinking and cognition, it is up to us to solve the problem. Maybe check out the free articles here http://www.flyingdogpress.com on relationships and dogs. 

That's how I see it anyway...get him tired out and then perhaps turn over everything to her. Everything comes from her. Nothing from you. Cut the apron strings to both.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

"Getting physical with pups and young dogs rarely works unless you get *very* physical and harsh. Less than that, and pushing and pulling and even hitting just feeds them more energy and makes them more crazy as they think you're joining them in a rousing wrestling game."

This is a broad generalization with which I disagree. I do agree that the pushing and pulling and even hitting is counterproductive in some cases. I have said before that a correction should only be given if you are sure the dog understands what is expected of him and persists in doing something else. If he has responded to "NO" or "OFF" or any other command in the past and then suddenly chooses to ignore it after repeated attempts, some kind of correction is appropriate. It never fails to amaze me how some people immediately presume the worst. The fact is I have never given a dog an "alpha roll". You can do nothing with a dog if you don't have his attention. 

I trust you're referring to your high drive dogs. I understand that you guys are positive only training advocates. And I also understand you not wanting to reduce their drive one iota. In fact drive building is a big part of your training. It's, after all, the reason that some people buy the dogs they do. Since I'm reasonably sure that you have never caused the slightest discomfort to your dogs how can you make such a statement? I suspect you've read it somewhere. Let's be completely honest here. Positive only, no correction training is simply an extension of the PC society in which we find ourselves today. I would even go as far as to suggest that many trainers who used to use "Old School" methods and have since renounced them are doing so for economical reasons. They still work, it's just that you won't put off any prospective clients. And as an added bonus, it will take considerably longer to train the dog. Many people view their dogs as equals to them and are absolutely amazed when the dog acts like an equal. 

Nobody would be foolish enough to say that over-correction can not be harmful to a dog's behaviour. I do believe that the sooner you make the, I'm the Boss" connection with your puppy the better. And it doesn't have to be heavy handed at all. Most of the time vocal tone is sufficient. The longer you wait, the harder it is to establish. If some people don't want to be the boss, that's fine too. But they have no standing to complain that their dog is behaving like it wants to instead of how they want it to. However they want to achieve that goal is fine with me. Mine is simply a method that works for me. It is interesting to me that so many of these posts start out with, I've tried this, this and this but he's still a butthead. The apologists for bad behaviour immediately recommend more of the same, patience, he's a working dog, he can't help it, he's just a puppy, a tired dog is a good dog, he's high drive, European bloodline, etc, etc. It should go without saying that anyone is completely free to ignore it.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08 I trust you're referring to your high drive dogs. I understand that you guys are positive only training advocates. And I also understand you not wanting to reduce their drive one iota. In fact drive building is a big part of your training. It's, after all, the reason that some people buy the dogs they do. Since I'm reasonably sure that you have never caused the slightest discomfort to your dogs how can you make such a statement? I suspect you've read it somewhere. Let's be completely honest here. Positive only, no correction training is simply an extension of the PC society in which we find ourselves today. I would even go as far as to suggest that many trainers who used to use "Old School" methods and have since renounced them are doing so for economical reasons. They still work, it's just that you won't put off any prospective clients. And as an added bonus, it will take considerably longer to train the dog.


LOL. You mentioned the "dark side" in your earlier post. You're so in the dark you don't know what light is. Chris is not a purely positive trainer or handler, and insinuating that she just read about corrections will be entertaining







. Neither am I. I use prongs, e-collars and corrections when necessary. I also trained my first GSD ten years ago using 100% compulsion (scruff of the neck and prong). No teaching, just making him do what I asked. It did not break him, and he was a great dog but he developed MUCH slower than my current dogs and whenever he was given an obedience command it showed with his body language. I was wrong. I couldn't care any less about being PC. Ask anyone here, and look at my past posts. I am not afraid to correct a dog. All I am saying is there is an age, time and place for it AND WHEN YOUR PUPPY IS JUST TRYING TO BE WITH YOU AND INTERACT WITH YOU IS NOT THE AGE TIME OR PLACE.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08
> I trust you're referring to your high drive dogs. I understand that you guys are positive only training advocates. And I also understand you not wanting to reduce their drive one iota. In fact drive building is a big part of your training. It's, after all, the reason that some people buy the dogs they do. Since I'm reasonably sure that you have never caused the slightest discomfort to your dogs how can you make such a statement? I suspect you've read it somewhere. Let's be completely honest here. Positive only, no correction training is simply an extension of the PC society in which we find ourselves today.


Speaking of broad generalizations.









Quite obviously you know nothing about me or my training methods.

Yes, I have high drive dogs.
However what I have said here is certainly not applicable to only high drive dogs or working/sport dogs. It is for ALL dogs.

And I am hardly a positive only, no correction training advocate. Yes, I use primarily positive training in the teaching stages. Once we get to the proofing stages, I have absolutely no problem using corrections in training, and do so when needed. Usually with a pinch collar or ecollar, but occasionally a more physical "come to Jesus" meeting is required. One cannot reliably train a dog.. much less a high drive, hard, confident, thinks he can take on the world dog... especially not to a high degree of performance, without some well applied corrections. In terms of hurting the dog's drive, if a dog, even a young one, can't handle some level of correction without it hurting it's drive, it isn't a good dog. But the correction must be appropriate.

My opinion however is that correction is ONLY applicable when the dog clearly understands what is expected, is capable of complying, and blatantly chooses not to obey. And then, it is only appropriate when timing and situation allows for the handler to issue the correction in a way that has no possibility of confusion or misunderstanding on the dog's part and there can be no doubt that the dog will clearly understand the correction and what it is for.

With adolescent dogs, that "capable of complying" aspect is often absent. Yes, they know the command. But often they do not have the self control that comes with maturity and life experience to obey it. They're not choosing to disobey, they literally just can't. 

People are always so quick to jump to the conclusion that since their dog supposedly knows "sit", that when they say sit and he doesn't do it he must be bullheaded, challenging their authority, etc... Truth is, dogs will rarely deliberatley choose to disobey. It's just not in their best interest to do so for a whole variety of reasons. But there are times when the distraction level or excitement level is just too high for the dog to cope with. 

One thing I've learned after training many dogs is that if I find myself in a situation where I feel I have to correct my dog repeatedly for the same offense, that *I* have messed up somewhere. Either I have not clearly communicated to my dog what I want, I am giving him mixed signals of some sort, or I am placing him in situations that he does not yet have the experience and maturity to handle and am thus setting him up for failure. That's not his fault, it's mine. And I'm the one who needs to take a step back and look at the situation and find a way to teach my dog what I want him to learn in a manner that is clear and fair to him.




> Originally Posted By: Chris08
> I would even go as far as to suggest that many trainers who used to use "Old School" methods and have since renounced them are doing so for economical reasons. They still work, it's just that you won't put off any prospective clients. And as an added bonus, it will take considerably longer to train the dog.


Hardly. 

They gave up their old school methods because they have found that there are better ways.

Yes, it takes a LOT more time, effort, and finesse on the part of the trainer than old school training does. But the results are much better. And while some will say that positive only training can produce reliable results, I haven't found that to be true. At least not with most GSDs. Some degree of correction and compulsion is necessary. But it should not be the primary means of training.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Chris, I always really enjoy reading your posts, You have a great no-nonsense way of dealing with dogs that I really do admire. I do worry about setting my dog up to fail and try really hard not to do that. The other day, when Ava was having a fit because of some other dogs someone asked me if she can sit....well yeah, she can, but I'm not going to ask it when all of her attention is focused on the 5 dogs in front of us....she cant focus on me in those situations yet, so I work on getting her to the point where that will no longer phase her and she can go back to giving me her attention. I had her on lead and under control so that was as much as I was going to ask at that time.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Wrenny,

I have raised multiple GSDs to be excellent house dogs, and most of those have also been of the high drive working line type training in SchH as well. Here are some of the keys I've found to doing this successfully.


*Exercise, exercise, exercise....
Training, training, training....*
These have already been covered in this thread, but their importance cannot be stressed enough. Training isn't just about control, but it is also about providing the dog with *mental* stimulation. This is something that GSDs need. All the physical exercise in the world isn't enough if they don't also get mental exercise.

My dog's don't choose me. I choose them. And by making the decision to bring a GSD, and particularly one of my preferred type, into my home, I am also choosing to bring home an animal that needs a high degree of physical exercise and mental stimulation. It is my responsibility to meet the dog's needs. If I don't, he is not to blame for any behavioral problems that ensue because of a failure on my part.

I also have to accept that I'm not going to be able to come home from a long day at work, and just sit on the couch and have my dog calmly lay next to me. Not without first meeting his needs. It's just not going to happen. Sure, once our dogs are adults we can get away with that. But they have the ability to settle down that comes with maturity, and a large amount of life experience that has deeply ingrained within them proper behavioral patterns for how to act in the house. With a young dog, those things are naturally absent, so I know I'm going to have to go do some exercise and training before he can settle.

*Absolutely NO playing in the house*
The house is a calm place, not romper room. No running laps, playing ball, tug, or wrestling with other dogs is allowed. Those things belong outside. If the dogs start getting rambunctious, we either take them out to play, put them out in the fenced yard to burn off energy with each other, or they go into crates.

Allowing them to rampage through the house allows them to learn that it's ok to do that. Or at least it's sometimes ok to do that. And it's not fair to expect a dog to know when it's ok and when it's not. Dogs think in black/white. They don't do well with shades of gray. So if I want my dog to come to view the house as the place of calm and quiet, I must prevent him from forming a behavioral pattern that is the opposite of that by controlling his environment so he cannot develop habits I don't want.

*Give him something appropriate to do.*
Lots and lots of good chew toys. Nylabones, stuffed kongs, marrow bones, knuckle bones. Give him something to keep himself occupied in an appropriate manner. It helps to hold back special goodies that they don't have access to otherwise. When we're going to sit down in front of the TV, we pull out the special chew toys for the young dogs who are still learning how to behave in the house. They will happily lie in their dog beds for hours, chewing away. Not causing a ruckus, not pestering us, and (most importantly) practicing the sort of calm behavior we want them to have in the house. Building good habits.

*Don't just tell your dog what he's doing wrong, tell him what he's doing right.*
This is one aspect that many people forget. And it's easy to do. I've done it myself. The dog lying quietly on the dog bed chewing a bone is easy to ignore or forget about, where as the one doing zoomies around the coffee table is bound to get attention. But we need to make a conscious effort to reward our dog's good behavior. Both to reinforce what we want, and to prevent him from intentionally acting up in order to get our attention. 

If the only time we give him attention is when he's acting like a nut, that will encourage him to act like a nut. Dog's are attention freaks. Bad attention is better than no attention. So instead of ignoring him when he's being good, give him good attention when he's being good. Just a simple pat, or a treat, or a soothing "good boy" is all it takes.

*If you want your dog to be calm, you have to be calm.*
Dogs are far more sensitive to our tone of voice and body language than they are to the words we say. They will not only take their cues on how to act from the way we're acting, but if we are in an energized state they will feed off that and become more energized themselves. If we're not calm, the dog won't be. He can't be. He's a dog and he can't change his nature.

This is why pushing pups away or slapping at them or making jerky movements to get our hands out of the way of gnashing teeth and screeching "no" doesn't work when they're wanting to wrestle with us. Even if they understand the word "no" means to stop what they're doing, our aggitated tone of voice and body language encourages them to be excited, gives them every indication that it's an appropriate time to be excited (after all, we are), and will generally be interpreted by a dog as responding to his invitation to play by playing back with him.

If you must correct overly excited behavior in a dog, you must do it in a way that doesn't make him more excited. This means slow, calm, firm voice and body movements... not hectic, upset, frantic ones. 

Keep petting and physical affection shown to the dog low key. Talk to him in soothing tones, pet him with long, slow strokes.. don't ruffle his fur or thump his sides. The former calms a dog, the later excites him. Again, help him to be calm by being calm yourself and reinforcing for him that being calm is a good way and there are calm ways to enjoy interacting with you.

*Use the crate when needed.*
Dogs are creatures of habit. Raising a good house dog is all about helping the dog build good habits by reinforcing what we want and preventing the dog from getting into the habit of doing things we don't want.

When the dog cannot be properly managed in ways such as I described, or you don't have an opportunity to do some training and exercise that day and he's totally boncing off the walls because of it, or you've had a bad day and will be likely to lose your temper with him, put him in the crate. This is a much better alternative to him practicing bad behaviors and a much better alternative to having his owners lose their temper.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

You're all over the place man. So corrections are OK for you to do since you are so enlightened. But if I suggest it it's putting the dog under my thumb and extinguishing natural puppy exuberance. I suppose that if one corrrected regular dogs and pups the way you have to correct high drivers, you could be right. I don't think I've ever done that and certainly never advocated it. But I'll take your word for it since it sounds to me like you have. And body language was the only difference you could detect? 
Why not just say it, man? You're training a SchH dog with the ultimate goal of hitting that friggin sleeve like a freight train. And any kind of inhibition training on your part during puppyhood would possibly prevent that. Your methods are not appropriate for folks who want a dog that everybody can live with. I suspect in the back of your mind there is just a bit of fear of your own dog.
I stand corrected on the positive only part. I'm done with this, you can have the last word.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08 So corrections are OK for you to do since you are so enlightened.


No. You might want to read my post again because that's not what I said. 

I said corrections are ok when the dog clearly understands what is being asked and is capable of obeying. And the handler can give the correction in a manner that is clear and fair to the dog, and of course at an appropriate level for the dog's temperament and maturity. Ultimately, the most important thing is that the dog clearly understands what the correction was for.

I do not believe those rules of issuing corrections are fulfilled in the case described in this thread. Most notably the "capable of obeying" part. Hence why I have advised against them in this situation. The fact that they've been tried and aren't working is further proof that a different approach is needed.

I also do not think force is appropriate as a first option in training. If other methods that are kinder and more fair, and less likely to damage the relationship between dog and handler don't work, force may be a valid option. But it should be left as the last resort. One can always escalate to force if need be. But once started down that road, it's nearly impossible to get off it and return to other means of teaching.



> Originally Posted By: Chris08 if I suggest it it's putting the dog under my thumb and extinguishing natural puppy exuberance.


I didn't say anything about "putting dogs under thumb" or "extinguishing natural puppy exhuberance". You are either confusing me with someone else, or else didn't read my posts.

You jumped on me when I said that frantically yelling and shoving at playful puppies usually does not work as a correction. It encourages more exhuberant play. This is a proven fact. Yet somehow you got from that statement that I made to assuming a bunch of other stuff about me and my dogs and my training that is totally inaccurate, and irrelevant to the thread.



> Originally Posted By: Chris08 And body language was the only difference you could detect?


I have no idea what you're referring to here....

Again wondering if you're confusing me with someone else, or didn't actually read what I wrote.




> Originally Posted By: Chris08 You're training a SchH dog with the ultimate goal of hitting that friggin sleeve like a freight train.


Yup... and then come home and lie on the couch with me in front of the TV. One can easily have both. A good GSD can easily be both. That's what's so great about the breed to begin with.



> Originally Posted By: Chris08And any kind of inhibition training on your part during puppyhood would possibly prevent that.


Wow. You really don't know anything about the way I raise and train my dogs, but certainly don't have a problem making a lot of assumptions.

I'll correct puppies, I'll correct adolescents and I'll correct adults. When needed, and appropriate. A dog, including a young puppy, who can't handle some clear, fair, and inappropriate corrections without being ruined as a working dog was never a good working dog to begin with. But a lifetime of constant corrections and getting into trouble will ruin any dog, and it's relationship with the handler. It's all about balance.



> Originally Posted By: Chris08 I suspect in the back of your mind there is just a bit of fear of your own dog.


Yup. You're right. I'm such an adrenaline junkie that I've chosen to live with 6 animals I'm afraid of, and further tempt fate by teaching them to enjoy biting people and then encouraging them cuddle on the couch with me (while watching horror movies of course) and sleep in bed with me every night. What a rush!


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Thanks. I only wish I had better communication skills, I always come across as the "Dog Torturer" on these threads. I'm sure many imagine my dogs slinking away at the very sight of me.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Chris,
That was a response to John's post.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08Chris,
> That was a response to John's post.


Sorry.. with it following mine I thought for sure it was in response to mine... especially with the time lag between my post and yours. Guess that explains why I didn't know what you were referring to in several parts!


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

This is for Chris Wild. You maybe have no idea how much everything you have posted here has helped me. Thank you.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Wrenny,
Meanwhile, back at the ranch......

Chris brings up a very good point about black and white and what I consider consistency. I'm afraid that on occasion I'm guilty of it.
When I'm watching TV or something, like right now at the computer, Mack will jump up for a quick hand chew and a little head rubbing. He's still so young his legs aren't strong enough for him to stay up long so he's kind of up and down. Well most of the time I don't really mind and I give him what he wants, though I'm sure in his mind it wasn't enough. Eventually I get tired of it and push him away with a "go lay down". There's no doubt I have created some conflict and confusion in his mind. He has no idea of when it's OK and when it's not. I'm sure in his mind that one jump is just the same as any other and then all of a sudden it's not OK. 
I don't expect him to know when it's OK and when it's not OK, only that when I say it's not OK anymore he must stop what he's doing. That keeps it more black and white for him. He gets what he wants and I get what I want.
I've never minded a dog that asked for attention, I'm easy for a pat on the head and a quick rub, some think you should initiate all attention. But regardless of who initiates it, I always get to say how much is enough, except, of course, on the extremely rare occasions he spots something more interesting than me.
So think about if this may apply to you and your little knothead.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Chris Wild gives some really great advice in this thread. In fact, I think the recipe for a good puppy post should be a stickie!

Chris08,

I don't think you've done much research on the types of training that you critique. I had gsds as my companion dogs for 20 years now and many of us on here started out using those "Old School" techniques of training. When we switched to the types of things you bash we found that contrary to your assumption it's MUCH faster to train the dog! And you end up with a dog who is more focused on you and more willing to do what you ask and do it really fast. I don't think there are too many people on here who are interested in being "pc" with their dogs or think their dogs are human. I, for one, think less of myself as my dog's _dominator_ and more of myself as my dog's _leader_.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Chris Wild - good, concise advice.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08
> 
> Chris brings up a very good point about black and white and what I consider consistency. I'm afraid that on occasion I'm guilty of it.
> When I'm watching TV or something, like right now at the computer, Mack will jump up for a quick hand chew and a little head rubbing. He's still so young his legs aren't strong enough for him to stay up long so he's kind of up and down. Well most of the time I don't really mind and I give him what he wants, though I'm sure in his mind it wasn't enough. Eventually I get tired of it and push him away with a "go lay down". There's no doubt I have created some conflict and confusion in his mind. He has no idea of when it's OK and when it's not. I'm sure in his mind that one jump is just the same as any other and then all of a sudden it's not OK.
> I don't expect him to know when it's OK and when it's not OK, only that when I say it's not OK anymore he must stop what he's doing. That keeps it more black and white for him. He gets what he wants and I get what I want.


Chris,

This is a wonderful example of EXACTLY what I have been talking about. You say that both you and your pup get what you want out of the above interaction. You want your pup totally confused about how to make you happy? All that matters to you is when you say "do this" he does it? Well, that's easy while his legs are weak and he's tiny like you say. But when he's 80 pounds of muscle and energy in a few months and you have not taught him to interact with you properly on your terms your choices are...

1. Keep a prong on him at all times and give him a pop as you say no or scruff his neck or some other form of compulsion to back up your "no, not now". 

2. Start properly shaping his behavior by being consistent with your expectations of him. 

The way to properly shape his behavior is to always ignore him when he comes up to you like this unless he sits calmly in front of you. EVERY TIME. If you cannot grasp the necessity of this, you have clearly not owned a dog with a temperament like Wrenny's. That's neither good nor bad, just fact. 

And I cannot even begin to communicate how far out in left field the "living in fear of my dogs" comment was.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

Uhh where to start?

Thanks all for the advice. He goes through a large peanut butter kong in about 5 minutes. Those don't last hours like they are supposed too. 

He isn't much on chew toys. He'll chew on it the first time I give it to him and never pick it up again after that.

Does any of this have to do with him not being fixed yet?

Anyways. I found a football field that we can go to but now we are in flood warnings so it's still going to be a little while. I understand that I have to give him his needs when I get home but somedays its just tiring because I work 10-12hours everyday. The wife doesn't help out as much exercising him as I do and I'm not going to press her to do so. I'm not that type of person to force anyone. I understand that if she doesn't put in the effort, that he won't listen or respect her but I still think I can train him to listen to her and have manners.

So I'll keep you up to date on the first day we try this new routine. 

A big thing I need to do when referring to your no playing in the house is I need to pick up his toys. His toys are left out and I know tahts a big reason he ignores them or doesn't care much sometimes about them because he ALWAYS has access to them. If I put them away and only take them out when we play, I create more bond between us. So I'll start putting the toys away. 

I will say that my next GSD will be an older, calm, rescue.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: wrennyUhh where to start?
> 
> Thanks all for the advice. He goes through a large peanut butter kong in about 5 minutes. Those don't last hours like they are supposed too.


Try freezing it. They last longer that way.

What size kong are you using. If you're using the XL size, it's too big and thus to easy for him to get the PB out. Try the next size down.

Try knuckle bones that you buy at petstores. Or raw marrow bones from the grocery store or butcher. Those will last for a very long time.




> Originally Posted By: wrenny
> 
> Does any of this have to do with him not being fixed yet?


No.




> Originally Posted By: wrennyAnyways. I found a football field that we can go to but now we are in flood warnings so it's still going to be a little while.


Good this will help. Also remember it's not just physical exercise he needs but also mental exercise. You may have to drive to some place to let him run and chase a ball, but you can work on obedience at home. 20 minutes of really using their brains tires them out as much as chasing a ball does. 



> Originally Posted By: wrenny
> The wife doesn't help out as much exercising him as I do and I'm not going to press her to do so. I'm not that type of person to force anyone. I understand that if she doesn't put in the effort, that he won't listen or respect her but I still think I can train him to listen to her and have manners.


This is going to be a problem. YOU cannot teach him to respect her. She must earn that respect herself. As it is, he views her as an equal akin to a littermate to play with, which is why he's so rough with her. I can understand not forcing her, but if she is unwilling to put in the effort to help exercise him and do training with him, she is just asking for him to continue to treat her with disrespect. And the dog shouldn't be blamed for that. The first step in earning a dog's respect and getting him to listen is to be someone worthy of respecting and listening to.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: wrenny
> Anyways. I found a football field that we can go to but now we are in flood warnings so it's still going to be a little while. I understand that I have to give him his needs when I get home but somedays its just tiring because I work 10-12hours everyday. The wife doesn't help out as much exercising him as I do and I'm not going to press her to do so. I'm not that type of person to force anyone. I understand that if she doesn't put in the effort, that he won't listen or respect her but I still think I can train him to listen to her and have manners.


Do the best you can. You're human, and you have a life. This is why we do not hesitate to crate. It is much better for both you and your dog to interact properly in your home or not at all. He will get better as he gets older, especially with all the work you are putting in now.



> Quote: A big thing I need to do when referring to your no playing in the house is I need to pick up his toys. His toys are left out and I know tahts a big reason he ignores them or doesn't care much sometimes about them because he ALWAYS has access to them. If I put them away and only take them out when we play, I create more bond between us. So I'll start putting the toys away.


I use two sets of toys. Toys I use to play with my dogs outside and for obedience which never come inside and they do not ever play with by themselves (which carry the highest value in the dogs eyes) and house toys which they use to occupy themselves and chew on instead of chewing on everything in our home.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I am really enjoying this thread, there are some invaluable comments here and some really good advice. I will say that the difference I have seen in dealing with a high drive dog and a lower drive dog is that the lower drive dog is actually easier and quicker to train in Chris Wild's method....A high drive dog requires so much patience I cant even begin to know how Chris does it with 6! I have only one with that drives and sometimes I really wonder what I was thinking! It never ceases to amaze me to have fosters come into my house that have never been walked, played with or taught the slightest manners and within one week or two will be polite as anything and behave as if they have always been in a home, and most of these dogs I have had have all been pets that no one knew what to do with and discarded as untrainable or just forgotten in a back yard, yet fair consistent treatment works every time. I have yet to have a rescue I would remotely consider as high drive. The fosters pick things up quite quickly, while my Ava has been a challenge from the start. BUT what she has learned is rock solid when I get there. I really believe that using this process is ideal regardless of what kind of dog you have, it just requires more patience and consistency and at times knowing when you need to put the dog up because you have neither....just my 2 cents...thanks Chris Wild for being so good at putting things down in concise and easy to read formats.


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## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

I think you need to tell your dog to "down" or "platz" or whatever other word you use.

It also sounds as if your dog is bored. YOUR idea of having played with him all day might not be enough exercise or you might be only paying attention to physical exercise. 

What do you do for mental stimulation? Playing fetch really isn't mental stimulation for a GSD. You can incorporate training and mind-games in your nightly tv-watching routine. 

At any rate, whether your dog is bored, understimulated or whatever, he should be taught to lie down by your feet and stay there until you say to get up. You can treat him for a job well done and play mind-stimulating games during commercials, etc...this is NOT punishment. If you do it right, you, your wife and the dog will come to greatly enjoy your tv time together.


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## sergekel (Mar 26, 2005)

As far as you thinking you can train your dog to respect your wife...I'd say to pretty much forget that.

SHE has to teach the dog to respect her. 

I'd say the easiest way to do this would be for you to back off and let your wife assume the bulk of the doggie responsibilities. She should be feeding him, training him, exercising him, playing with him, taking him out, etc....

One important thing I've found....now, this is my personal experience here. I do not claim to be an expert dog trainer. But this has worked for me 2 GSD's in a row. To build a great relationship with your dog, let the dog get bored ON PURPOSE.

We can spoil our dogs and give them so much fun and freedom that they actually become bored of it. Is the dog getting the run of the house all day? This can actually bore a dog stiff. Too much freedom and constant "playing" might not be as good a thing as it looks on the surface.

What I've done is to use the crate. Doesn't have to be all day or even a vey long time. But crating for awhile, like an hour or so at a time will make the dog excited to come out. 

If your wife consistently is the one to let the dog out of the crate....and she immediately does something the dog likes, like feed him, play, train, pet, walk, etc...then he will very soon come to look forward to spending time with her. 

Have her do something incredibly fun with the dog, then put the dog back into the crate at the height of his excitement. Don't wait till the dog gets tired or bored of the activity.

You might need to crate him much more than you actually feel happy about in the beginning. It's all about setting the dog up for fun, excitement and good behavior. If you keep him crated, take him out for potty and 10-15 min of training, then put him back in for another hour or so....you have put the dog in a position that he was 100% successful and had a 100% good experience.

Many pet owners don't want to crate that much cause they think it's inhumane...or they don't want to invest that much effort or time into their pet. They think their dog will grow out of their behavoirs or they want their dog to be pampered and not crated. Unfortunately for the dog, the owners could be setting them up for failure, negative discipline and even outright punishment down the road.

If you do what I just outlined, it won't be long before your dog is looking forward to spending time with your wife. Once the two of them have boneded well, you can phase yourself back in. 

As a general rule, my dog now only eats in her crate. She is now ALWAYS so excited to be with me.


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