# german vs. american - telling the difference from the pedigree



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

Hello,

I am a complete novice. I am looking at 2-3 breeders to make the next addition to our family. Is there an easy way to tell from the pedigree american vs. german? I hope this isn't a stupid question. My goals are to introduce a well balanced, low-medium drive GSD into our home. This will be our 2nd (first died of cancer). 

The pedigrees are all available for me to research, just not sure how to read it and draw useful information from them.

Thanks!


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

This is from another pedigree novice, so don't take everything I say as fact, but here's a few things I look for. 

Usually American line GSDs will have names like this dog (Zimsu's Samuel Adams): American Champion Zimsu's Samuel Adams - German Shepherd Dog
(I just did a search on PedigreeDataBase - I know nothing of this dog, other than he's American lines). 
Their titles will also usually start with CH. They more than likely won't have any SchH/IPO titles.

German line dogs have names more along the lines of Wolfhound vom Strauss. (Just a name I made up). 
They're more likely to have things like V, VA, VA-1, KKl, SchH, IPO, etc. in front of their name. 
I believe this goes for both German showlines and working lines. 

The more experienced pedigree people should come along here before too long.  

Oh, and welcome to the forum!


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

American/Canadian dogs tend to have American sounding words/names. German lines have non-American sounding names. You'll also find "Von" or "vom" in the German lines. It's really that simple when just trying to tell if the dog's European or American.

Here's two pedigrees of random dogs. Guess which ones German and which is American.

GCH Babheim's Captain Crunch - German Shepherd Dog

V Sven vom Gräfental - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

provide the pedigrees


----------



## Felix's Proud Mammy (Jul 10, 2012)

I have a German bred GSD straight from Nordheim. His given name is Felix de casa Garcia so going on names alone is not a good clue. As far as differences overall; American bred GSD will typically grow and top out after 2 years. German descent will grow and top out after 3 years and tend to be a bit bigger on the scale. If you'd like to see a German GSD straight from Nordheim I have an album on my profile of Felix that you can paruse. HTH!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't think size is going to help on pedigrees.....the ASLs tend to be leaner (not as "sprung") than the Euro showlines....height is variable, altho the Euro dogs are being brought into standard more through the koer and restrictions on show placements based on over height...2 cm over and back to the end of the line you go! ASL do not measure and follow those parameters that strictly..

Euro bred dogs will have V, SG or G at the begining of the names, and things like SchH, IPO, ZVV, and KKL after their names...depending on whether working or highlines, and country of origin. They are not as stretched and low in the rear in general in photos..Euro show lines are 99.9999% brown bodies (ranging from tan to red shades) in body with black saddles.....Euro working lines come in many colors, predominantly sables, with pure blacks and some black and browns (again, shade of brown can vary! light tan to reddish) ....American SL have all colors in the ring, but again black saddled brown dogs are still in the majority.

And then there are some ASL breeders who mix some Euro lines into their breedings! So that is a possibility as well.....but Euro breeders do NOT mix ASL lines into their pedigrees.

Posting some pedigrees will make it easy for us to tell.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The other thing is, if you have an AKC pedigree of a Euro dog the European titles will not show up. I understand that is changing but not for now.


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your replies. As suspected, this isn't as straightforward as I was hoping it was going to be. I am looking at two different breeders. Vastly different price points. 

Breeder #1 has these two parents:
_Ginger Vom Springer - German Shepherd Dog_
I can't find sire but his parents are below. Looks to be a mistake as his siblings are all listed:
_Uno vom Fleischerheim - German Shepherd Dog
Tessa vom Fleischerheim - German Shepherd Dog_

Breeder #2 has some gaps. I can't find either the sire nor dam but some of the parents can be found:
_VA1 Hoss vom Hirmer Teich - German Shepherd Dog
V- Cola v Bullinger, SchH1, KKL1 (OVC H&E) - German Shepherd Dog
V9 Winner vom Assaut - German Shepherd Dog_

Missing the dam of the sire. This breeder has the pedigree online here:
_German Shepherd For Sale Nebraska | Falling Cedar v Bullinger | Loup Valley Shepherds
German Shepherd For Sale Nebraska | L Dakota v Bullinger | Loup Valley Shepherds
_
Ironically, Breeder #2 has been somewhat of a Nazi (pardon the expression) with regard to making sure I am a worthy pet owner which I appreciate but the pedigree gaps raised a small yellow flag and want to reach out to some others such as yourselves whom can guide me a bit here.

Breeder #1 has a very impressive paper trail, at least that of which is available online at that pedigree database site.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Bullinger is a Canadian based kennel of West German Show Lines....Fleischerheim is Texas based kennel - also WGSL....both very very big business enterprises producing lots of dogs....

Breeder no 2 has one non credentialed breeding pair - looks like OFA done....the dogs have known backgrounds but are obviously well loved pets who are being bred to produce pets.

The first dog, Ginger v Springer, is from parents from a well known long established kennel....there is a paternal half sister to Ginger on the board whose owner posts alot...her name is Kira and his name Anthony I think....might be good to read about her to get an idea of what that line can produce....The sires lines are also known WGSL pedigrees. No idea of if the breeder also has a pair of dogs that he is breeding to sell pets or is a serious hobby breeder from the info listed.


All in all - these are all from West German showline backgrounds.

Good luck.

Lee
Good Luck


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

Any reason for one to ask $1250 and the other to ask $500?


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

You said breeder 2 has one non-credentialed breeding pair.
1. What does this mean?
2. How can you tell?
3. Which pair?

Thanks!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

td3201 said:


> Any reason for one to ask $1250 and the other to ask $500?



nice website - sees what pups cost, what they paid for their dogs as pets...but if you are going to spend $1250, you can find a litter where at least one of the parents are titled and the breeder has a little more knowledge and experience of the breed! For $1500, you can get a pup from 2 titled parents....

For example....

I know of a litter in OK where sire is titled and credentialed quite a bit more, dam has AKC titles and out of very very good parents (titled and koered) - a female or two might be available and probably in the $1000-1200 price range....not sure of colors, black and tan sire, dam is sable from a black dam ...so all three colors possible.

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

td3201 said:


> You said breeder 2 has one non-credentialed breeding pair.
> 1. What does this mean?
> 2. How can you tell?
> 3. Which pair?
> ...


you only provided one breeder website - both dogs bought from Bullingers, a breeding pair of pets....no titles, just OFA and no other evidence of any involvement in certifying the dogs in any sport or venue to show breeding worthiness....a pair of nicely bred pets being bred to sell pet puppies....they probably paid $2500+ for each of these as puppies from a big name show kennel in Canada and are basing their price on the "quality" they purchased....but with no titles or credentials other than OFA, a price of $1200 is too high IMO

Lee

Lee


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

I should be more clear:
German Shepherd For Sale Nebraska | Dog Puppies Breeders St. Paul = $500
Planned Litters = $1250 (absolutely miserable website. Thinking of offering him a trade of me redoing his site for a puppy).


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

Again, my goal here is to find a healthy, even temperament, low-medium drive GSD.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The Springer breeder does have some titled dogs.....so their's are priced higher....

It is hard to say what the temperaments are but either litter should be lower drive...go meet the parents and see...

Lee


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I can certainly appreciate you wanting a calm family dog , but Cedar looks flatter than a pancake. In the majority of the pictures he is plastered to the floor - and this training video -- he has no upbeat interest in even going for the stroll - oh do I have to , then on the sit the dog is so eager to drop into a down , and then all that nonsense walking back and forth. That dog wouldn't break the down stay . Proves nothing . Show me a recall . Then set up the lawn chair and wait for it. Schutzhund German Shepherds St. Paul | Dog Breeders Grand Island NE

taken from their script "Trust that we are a true Schutzhund German Shepherd breeder" I DON'T , why should I . And owning GSD for 6 years and belonging to some club does not make you a Premier member .

Look you want a GSD . To be fun it has to have some life , some potential. Yes , no?


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

I really appreciate your posts. I am going to meet the parents tomorrow. If I have any sort of reservation, I'll walk away. I have been in contact now with 4 other breeders that have a very positive approach and have answered my tough questions very well.

For example, when asked the following question: What's been your worst learning experience while breeding GSD?

Here's how one answered:

_Our bad experience was we changed dog food to a more natural diet but the feed value was not there; small pups at birth different sizes at birth which made it hard to sell the different size pups. It brought a lot of unnecessary questions that I could not give a good answer to._

This to me shows some vulnerability which tells me a lot. Anyone can make mistakes and no one has all of the answers but showing this vulnerability gives me some confidence in their word.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In the US (AKC), you can pretty much name your dog any way you like. So if I want to name my dog Frodo Von Selzer or Frodo von der Selzerhaus or Frodo Vom Haus Selzer etc., I can. And the dog could be American pet lines, German working lines, German showlines, or any combination of them. 

Also, in the AKC, many of the German kennel names are not protected, So if Batu is not protected, you can name your dog Elsa Vom Batu. It does NOT mean the dog is German or in any way related to the Batu line of dogs. 

A lot of people might look at the pedigree and see a dog in the background and want to use that kennel name for their dogs. They actually can do this. And a lot of people do like to use a German sounding name for their German dog.

The way to tell if a dog is actually German on AKC paperwork is that it will have GER after the name. It will NOT list any Schutzhund titles, as they are not AKC titles. 

If a dog has parents or grandparents that have GER in their name, then the dog may be German all or in part, but bred here, meaning the dog would not have had to go through the same set of hoops that dogs must go through in Germany to be bred. But it will still be German Showlines or German Working lines, even if the sire is named Evenstar's Captain Crunch. 

If I get a pup out of Odessa Von Aurelius (GER), and Herko Von Aurelius (GER), and name it Evenstar's Kojak, the dog is still German show lines. But not bred or whelped in Germany. 

I just think it is a bit overly simplistic to look for von or vom and schutzhund titles. At least if your looking at an AKC pedigree that won't work at all.


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

I am glad you said this because that was what I was gleaning from this research. Is pedigreedatabase.com the best source of official/reputable information?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

trying to help you out as I see you are making the effort to do your homework and select a good breeder.

you said "For example, when asked the following question: What's been your worst learning experience while breeding GSD?

Here's how one answered:

_Our bad experience was we changed dog food to a more natural diet but the feed value was not there; small pups at birth different sizes at birth which made it hard to sell the different size pups. It brought a lot of unnecessary questions that I could not give a good answer to._

This to me shows some vulnerability which tells me a lot. Anyone can make mistakes and no one has all of the answers but showing this vulnerability gives me some confidence in their word. 







 For example, when asked the following question: What's been your worst learning experience while breeding GSD?

Your question was a bit "beauty pageant". Hard to ask the right questions when you don't know what is important . The answer though would not give me any confidence at all. When you feed "more natural" the quality is in your hands, your control. It should have been better . All sorts of resources are available . The answer shows me they don't put in much effort to find out for themselves.

They are newbie breeders . Question could have been , who is your mentor, did you consult with the breeder of the female on the best possible combinations for a breeding . You know , had they done so , if they had the breeders blessing , she could have provided or recommended a male that would have made the lines proud.
Being different sizes at birth may indicate that the pups were conceived on different days. Within that litter one pup could be 3 or 4 days difference in age which shows up then and for the first few weeks . By 8 or 10 weeks you wouldn't be able to spot who was what back then and by adult hood -- not at all.
Being harder to sell. Once again showing lack of understanding and laziness to put in the effort to find out , consult someone that does know and to make the effort to teach the buyer .
Questions -- what are their guarantees. 

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

continue- when a newbie breeder just so happens to have the male that is a bit of a red flag. Convenience. 
If they had the female worked with the breeder to find the best and most compatible male they would be "out there" involved in the dog community. They would have guidance, learn about confromation , training , issues. If you have problems can they answer your questions or will they become the unnecessary questions that they can't answer.

Why not take advantage of this forum. Give your location . Maybe some have had really good experience with a breeder close to you .

Take your time. Remember puppies are cute .


----------



## td3201 (Aug 20, 2012)

I am from Omaha, Nebraska.

Your point is valid. I was looking at the question/response more from a psychological vulnerability response which most humans will resist if they are guilty or hiding something. Psych 101. I am not a breeder nor have been involved with this level of detail for any length of time. Based on this, I go with the basics.

You indicated _"when you don't know what is important"_. I am trying to figure this out with the community's help. Which you are, and I appreciate.

I see your point with their "more natural" comment. I am willing to give a little latitude on the language given it was an email. I will meet the breeder in person and ascertain their diet philosophy. Good catch!

I really like your mentor comment. We all have mentors. No one was born with this knowledge. Your approach would have been much better if I had thought of this. I will leverage this approach when I speak with them.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

very good -- 
just for comparison why don't you look at this web site. They are breeders in Ontario . They do breed from show lines but this is a totally different plane of their involvement, committment, experience, dealing with buyers etc etc Alpenhof Reg'd Kennel German Shepherd Dogs Home page

compare the prices 

Omaha , instantly Marlin Perkins of Wild Kingdom fame sprung to mind , shilling the Mutual of Omaha insurance .lol , kid hood memories, I don't think I missed an episode -- better than Tiny Talent time with all those clicky clacky talented pretty little tap dancers - marlin perkins - Google Search

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

td3201 said:


> I should be more clear:
> German Shepherd For Sale Nebraska | Dog Puppies Breeders St. Paul = $500
> Planned Litters = $1250 (absolutely miserable website. Thinking of offering him a trade of me redoing his site for a puppy).


 
Don't be serious about a puppy from these folks! RED flags all over the place!


6 years of experience with GSD's (three times on a single page!!!!) - but what have they done with their dogs?

How would you know they are trainable? Or even if they are just standard looking?

Find another breeder would be my advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

td3201 said:


> I am glad you said this because that was what I was gleaning from this research. Is pedigreedatabase.com the best source of official/reputable information?


Not exactly. It's a Wiki. It's a good starting point for information but don't take it as gospel. The info is only as good as the person contributing it.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Marsha from Traumwolfen (North Platte) has an imported female being bred right now....pups should be black and tan blankets, and possibly some blacks...

Home

Both parents are titled, koered, all Euro lines (mix of West German and Czech)...Chita is titled in both European dog sports and AKC Obedience, a nice stable family dog and should produce this.

Lee


----------



## hattifattener (Oct 7, 2011)

> We breed the Schutzhund German Shepherd and we currently have some puppies for sale. The Schutzhund name comes from the German word "Schutz" meaning shelter or protection and the word "hund" meaning dog. We choose this breed because they have better health in hips than the America German Shepherds do.



schutzhund German shepherd.... hmmmm..

wgsl?


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

And the above about the hips isn't true either. Although it might be true for the pet lines, it is not necessarily true in the American Show Lines.


----------

