# Reward and ecollar



## Konathedog (Aug 1, 2016)

Do you incorporate treats into your ecollar training? My instructor said itll cause them to be dependant. What are your thoughts? 

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## Konathedog (Aug 1, 2016)

To be clear, she didnt say not to reward them but keep the treats separate from the commands. 

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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I always reward a correct behavior.

I wouldn't use an E collar and not reward a dog when it is correct.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

]I don't think food causes them to become dependant if you do it right. Food can be a great motivator, it can be a great tool to explain something to a dog.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I use treats to encourage an enthusiastic heel. Sometimes I want a calm heel and other times a "drivey" one. Treats can build drive.

I use treats on recall. I want my dog to know that coming to me is the best thing ever. On walks in the park early in the morning, he is off leash with an e-collar. When I call his name, he gets a treat when he comes back to me. Then, I usually say "break" and let him go freely again. If he voluntarily comes back without me calling while on the walk, I also give him a treat. He is 2.5 years old. I have been treating a recall (casual or formal) since he was a puppy. A recall is a most valuable command to have rock solid. E-collars are excellent tools, so are treats.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Couple of things ... first "treats" and "rewards" are not necessarily the same thing. Ruling out "puppies," in general the "overuse" or "incorrect" use of "treats" which for "JQP" typically means a "cookie" can easily lead to "too much excitement" or the giving of "treats" for the wrong behaviour. A lot of trainers don't use "treats" ie "cookies," a simple "good boy/girl" and call it day is "good enough." 

And for "me" a dog has to "prove" they deserve that. I don't reward a dog for "not acting like fool" "I" "expect that." For "me" not getting a "correction" is "reward enough."

To "me" the "E- Collar" is irrelevant to the question ...an "E-Collar" is just a correction by other means. I'm not big on the whole "distract and treat thing??" I prefer a dog learn to freaking "deal with it." I don't get a "treat" for not acting like a "fool" why should my dog?? So your "Trainer" may not be "conventional" but he's not alone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> ]I don't think food causes them to become dependant if you do it right. Food can be a great motivator, it can be a great tool to explain something to a dog.


Yes but ... "Working for "Food" and rewarding "good/appropriate" behaviour with "treats" are two diffrent things.


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## Konathedog (Aug 1, 2016)

Thank you everyone for chiming in 

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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Yes but ... "Working for "Food" and rewarding "good/appropriate" behaviour with "treats" are two diffrent things.


So....I was trying to make a vague distinction about how you can use food to lure a dog into a behavior as a teaching method. It is easy to fade out the lure quickly.

Different thing than using food as a plain reward for a behavior. Neither causes the dog to become dependant unless you don't know how to use food properly. I personally would not use a trainer who didn't know how to use food properly.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Tyler Muto...

All these trainers use food rewards and lures in their e-collar training. I don't think you have to look for more than that as evidence that it is a solid training method.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Couple of things ... first "treats" and "rewards" are not necessarily the same thing. Ruling out "puppies," in general the "overuse" or "incorrect" use of "treats" which for "JQP" typically means a "cookie" can easily lead to "too much excitement" or the giving of "treats" for the wrong behaviour. A lot of trainers don't use "treats" ie "cookies," a simple "good boy/girl" and call it day is "good enough."
> 
> And for "me" a dog has to "prove" they deserve that. I don't reward a dog for "not acting like fool" "I" "expect that." For "me" not getting a "correction" is "reward enough."
> 
> To "me" the "E- Collar" is irrelevant to the question ...an "E-Collar" is just a correction by other means. I'm not big on the whole "distract and treat thing??" I prefer a dog learn to freaking "deal with it." I don't get a "treat" for not acting like a "fool" why should my dog?? So your "Trainer" may not be "conventional" but he's not alone.


Using food rewards in training is a great way to implement +R in operant conditioning. I understand that sometimes a "Good Boy" is enough, but if the food reward is higher value, the chance that the behavior will be repeated is higher. 

Many behaviors can be trained and proofed with an e-collar. Not just "Don't act like a fool."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Tyler Muto...
> 
> All these trainers use food rewards and lures in their e-collar training. I don't think you have to look for more than that as evidence that it is a solid training method.
> 
> http://youtu.be/gvN22a_WzYk


LOL, yet again I'm "that guy" out there kicking over sacred cows in the "Dog Park and stuff. :grin2: 

People are busy "answering/defending" a "question/postion" I did not ask?? "Can Experienced "People" and "Pros/" get the behaviour they seek with the "appropriate use of "Treats/Food" as a reward?? 

Well ... sure but I'm not addressing people that "know how to train a dog." I'm addressing those that don't, and those dog owners tend to use treats (cookies) "inappropriately" all the time. And often end up "rewarding" for the "wrong behaviour" and "creating excitement" in the dog not stopping it. Happens all the time. 

As for "me" ... "Saddly" I have no "Proof" of concept clips. 
As I did not know I was doing anything "different" at the time??? 

I "stopped" my "Boxer" from chasing "Rabbits" towards the Hwy, South and allowed her to chase them "North" towards the Mountains off leash in the desert with the use of the word ..."NO!" No treats no distraction. You're not chasing "that" one dog ... deal with it.


And "Rocky" with his people "issues" did not get "treats" or "distracted" from "people" his "job" was to "not act like a fool around people." I showed him how I expected him to behave and he got that ... no use of treats or distractions. 

Branching out with "Deer Dog" (Boxer of course) a confirmed chaser of "Deer" and a leash "Puller." I only ever worked with him once impromptu on a walk with friends. I couldn't handle the owner struggling with him any longer, so I took over. I fashioned a SLL, and the "pulling" thing for me of course was nothing. Less than two minutes that problem solved. In full view of the "Boxer" owner he saw nothing happening and certainly nothing to object to?? The dog "just changed."

We than proceeded on our walk with the dog (now) walking calmly beside us. At some point forgetting about the dog. We stopped and talked, we were discussing the "Dog's serious Deer issues." 

They had just spent the other evening chasing the dog down when he bolted after "Deer." I was exampling to him about "Prongs and E-Collar" crittering protocols. When I remember ... "oh yeah the dog??" I start to move and I look down first and notice the dog is now stiff as a board and staring into the distance??? Puzzled, I follow the dogs gaze??? And see not one but two Deer about 20 yards away!! :surprise:

"I" was stunned , the dog never moved, never made a sound, he merely stood there "Not Acting Like a Fool' while we conversed. I stared at him "disbelieving" and say "OK" and ... off we went, no issues no problem and no "distractions or use of treat." You can't prepare for the sudden spontaneous arrival of "Deer to "test a concept" ... although in Virginia City NV ...maybe you can?? 

And yet another "not my own dog deal" Pulling, and* Fear of People,* issues" sigh ... yet again "Boxer!" I did the "exact same thing" with him I did with "Rocky" "people ... are not your concern dog." Your job is to not "act like a fool" because I got your back. 

That "Boxer" (Tic Tac Toe) was actually my first use of a SLL?? I'd never used or seen one before?? The rescue "handed it to me" and said use this?? Ok ... whatever, I was since "Struddell" a regular collar and flat leash guy. But ... I looked at the SLL saw the little tabby things and said ... interesting?? I used the little "tabbies" positioned the "SLL" high and snug and began. Of course the dog protested at this "new development" with a "different" use of a tool which he had routinely abused. But "this" time something was different??

He protested for maybe 30 to 40 seconds and I simply held, pressure. He then decided apparently "well this is not working??" He then "stopped the crap" and stood there ... the pressure went away. He then waited thought and sat down. He "offered the Sit!' I was kinda stunned by that. But I looked down at him and said "OK" and off we went.

We walked and would on "occasion" stop and talk, my "default distance" to talk to people when I had a "Dog" with issues on leash was "Rocky." And that distance seemed to be about 5 feet. So that's what "we" did. At each encounter the dog merely stood quietly by my side. We were having a great time together as we toured the "Park" lot's of people and lots of dogs and he was having no issues dealing. I looked down at the dog and thought ''huh" ... this is odd?? This dog is as well mannered and behaved on leash as my own "Struddell" I'm not really seeing any issues here, oh well ...."whatever??"

And then ... in our very next people encounter ... we stop and talk at our now established default distance. I answer questions,"Tic Tac Toe" calmly by my side, and this time ..."JQP" does ask to pet "Tic Tac Toe??" I'm pondering an answer as thus far I'd observed "no" people issues whatsoever???" Perhaps I was taking to long to think for "JQP" because as I thought it over?? They stepped forward! 

"Tic Tac Toe" never made a sound and did not lunge or act crazy "don't be acting like a fool dog" but what he did do ...was take a step towards me, and pressed firmly but quietly against my leg?? I looked down at him and he then looked at me and his eyes were big as saucers!!! "Oh ... there it is!" Without looking up my hand went out and I said "Stop "Fear of people issues, he's in training" and off we went. 

The rest of the day was spent back at camp doing "Sit on the Dog" I made no requirements of him, no "Sit or Down" he just couldn't leave my side further than the distance of the leash. He was "apparently" good with that as he seemed to be just as happy and boisterous as the other Boxers! 

At the end of the day I hand him over and sure enough there he goes off in the distance dragging his owner with the same "SLL" I had just used in tow! So yeah it's not about the "tool" it's about the "owner" there. 

I did hear he got "Adopted!" Most likely he is still a "puller??" So those and more that a few other miscellaneous strays I've wrangled up and returned to owners. A few door bolting "Back Yard" dogs that don't even know what a leash is, a few have been returned with makeshifts SLL's and we calmly walk down the block and I return them to there owners. No "treats" or use of "distraction" needed.
Michael Ellis, ... notwithstanding ... I'm not a freaking treat machine (The guy rubs me the wrong way. )

I have however read "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" for "Pet People" and I recall no mention in it of the use of "Treats or Distractions" for training a well behaved dog?? If it's in there?? I'll have to read it again. If those are mentioned in his book on training "Guards" and so I wouldn't know as that's not my thing.

Tylor of course I know ... he ticked me off with "over use of treats in training that one "Pitty" in "Place.' Other than I use his work.

"Ivan Balabanov," ... Muskeg mentioned him in the past and here he is again ... so I suppose ... I got no choice but to check him out. And "Bart Bellon" I've not heard of him so I'll add him to my list of trainers to check out. "Live and learn" as it were. You never know where you'll pick something up or gain a better understand of "doggy stuff" from. As for me "I'm" just a "Pet Guy" so yeah I looked for results ... I never knew I was doing anything "unique."
So ... yeah ... I've never written a book or have "clips of my own" so there is that.


But just because "something is "unconventional" does not automatically equate to "can't be done." If that were the case "Dog Training" would never need to change??

To "me" Tylor Mutos "Conversational Leash Work" ....:





Strikes "me" as very similar to "KMODT" work with the long line, accept you do give a crap where the dog is.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Using food rewards in training is a great way to implement +R in operant conditioning. I understand that sometimes a "Good Boy" is enough, but if the food reward is higher value, the chance that the behavior will be repeated is higher.
> 
> Many behaviors can be trained and proofed with an e-collar. Not just "Don't act like a fool."


Oh ... understood ...the "shaping a behaviour" and lurking into postion thing. The "heel postion" comes to mind after a recall. I've never "asked" for that. 

But I've see that trained without treats so ... I'll have to give it shot and see what I think???


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

When using an e collar, which isn't often, I always reward when I get the desired behavior/action. Either a treat or a 'good girl' as taught to me by Michael Ellis' business partner.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip I have to disagree with one thing you said up there: people misusing food and rewarding wrong behavior and creating overly excited, out of control dogs (paraphrase). The most common mistake I see people make with food is that they don't teach the dog to work independently of the food -make the dog reliant on the food-

I have absolutely seen pure positive trainers use toys as rewards and create out of control dogs, no boundaries, just wild adrenaline.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ausdland said:


> When using an e collar, which isn't often, I always reward when I get the desired behavior/action. Either a treat or a 'good girl' as taught to me by Michael Ellis' business partner.


ME's business partner is more than good enough! The "Top Guy" can't do everything and that's why they "Train" other trainers. I'll not try and tell "you" that what you were taught can't work??? That would be pointless as well as silly. 

Most likely, if I worked "one on one" with one of his disciples ... even I would be impressed. I only single him out because I heard how he address the exact same situation I deal with differently. 

Elevator dog was his example and he was explaining,how when the door opens ... you distract the dog (from dogs) and treat,treat treat. Well ... what happens if the dog won't take treats??? Hopefully there is a "viable" Plan B??? I don't know, I never heard him answer the "what if my dog won't take treats, questions there??" 

I don't do a "Plan B" I just look/work for "Calm" dogs. And you don't need to work with 100's or 1000's of dogs to know what "calm looks like." The dog I work with seem to get the "Calm" thing pretty quickly?? So they already "understand" what is of expected of them "before" I put them into a postion where they need to make a "good choice." If they "choose" not to "chose" they defer to me and I get them out of there! 

I couldn't imagine having to deal with 116 lbs of out control WL GSD in front of people and hoping I could indeed "distract him with treats???" That did not strike me as sensible ... so I never tried. That does not mean it can't work ... but it's certainly nothing I'd ever do or recommend to others. 

On the other hand ...ME, you know ... I share his "Fear Period in Young Dogs" lecture all the time. :






I was rolling however, when I first heard him make his "discovery" in class on the use of "treat" with dogs and "strangers." :grin2:

Flattering myself here but ... as they say "the only thing three dog trainers will agree on ... is that one of them is wrong." 

The trainers I tend to follow also train the proper use of E-Collars and they don't use treats. Maybe I should have lead with that??

At anyrate, glad his methods worked for you and your dog ... you'll get no grief from me.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> ME's business partner is more than good enough! The "Top Guy" can't do everything and that's why they "Train" other trainers. I'll not try and tell "you" that what you were taught can't work??? That would be pointless as well as silly.
> 
> Most likely, if I worked "one on one" with one of his disciples ... even I would be impressed. I only single him out because I heard how he address the exact same situation I deal with differently.
> 
> ...


Well, good. I'm not here for grief, just to learn and share. I don't think my way is the only or best way, just sharing what I've found works and doesn't. Lisa Maze and ME breed Malinois. I don't believe she is one of his students. She is certainly no novice and is a very reputable trainer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Chip I have to disagree with one thing you said up there: people misusing food and rewarding wrong behavior and creating overly excited, out of control dogs (paraphrase). The most common mistake I see people make with food is that they don't teach the dog to work independently of the food -make the dog reliant on the food-


 I don't think the "distinction" of using treats for training and working with "food" for training was ever clearly defined bt whatever.

I've tried to explain "why I do what I do" my results and why I drew the conclusions I did. 

But to engage in a broad "debate" over "how and what people can do wrong with the use of food or treats" and who's seen more problems created which way??? Is beyond the scope of anything even I am willing to tackle. I mean I can't really argue with what you've seen and your conclusions?? 

My goals are pretty simple "don't" be acting like a Fool Dog" and I thought my means for "achieving" that were pretty "simple" and "uncontroversial???" also?? But "apparently" not???

Only my "first" "GSD" ever really challenged me and that was with behaviors, I'd never seen and I still solved the H/A thing with what I'd already knew. 

Beyond him, I had to do rescue work to find dogs with "issues" and I still did the same "simple" things and they still work.

To date only one dog out of many was not getting with the "Walk on a SLL, properly in less than four minutes thing." 

A small "Pitty" with a huge head. Not getting with the program! He actually did the sit and not gonna move thing??? We worked through that, 3 minutes maybe. The the rear up and fight thing another 3 minutes. So already longer than it had taken me in the past with several dogs?? 

Then finally we go ... and then he darts across my legs changing sides?? Not a dog I wanted to be banging into to force a change of direction with on first encounter. Most likely had I been able to continue working with him, I would have switched to a 15 foot line ie "KMODT" but ... that 10 minute session was it wth Mr Pitty ... to bad. 

The owner did not really care and was good with being dragged around ... he had two more just like that one at home so for him ... all dogs do that ... whatever ... I still had fun.  




Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have absolutely seen pure positive trainers use toys as rewards and create out of control dogs, no boundaries, just wild adrenaline.


 LOL ... the "P" word ... not "even" going there. But yeah ... I concur. :grin2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ausdland said:


> Well, good. I'm not here for grief, just to learn and share. I don't think my way is the only or best way, just sharing what I've found works and doesn't. Lisa Maze and ME breed Malinois. I don't believe she is one of his students. She is certainly no novice and is a very reputable trainer.


Aww the Mal's ... I find them intriguing! 

A Mal and a Boxer would be a fun combo!! But now ... "I Know" ... rabbits can break towards the highway also!! Gotta ponder that one casue I'm not eager to put my "Rabbit Protocol" to the test again.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Training using only pressure and adversives is just as bad as using rewards only and no adversives.I think most of us want our dogs to obey happily and enthusiastically.A dog that has been conditioned to expect something wonderful when he obeys.Something unpleasant when he doesn't obey.
What kind of relationship and bond would you have with your dog if he spends his life simply avoiding pressure and adversives?Might as well have a robot dog


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> I don't think the "distinction" of using treats for training and working with "food" for training was ever clearly defined bt whatever.
> 
> I've tried to explain "why I do what I do" my results and why I drew the conclusions I did.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we are dangerously close to "going there" with this debate over using food. I guess for me in a nutshell it is like this: I don't like to hear that any trainer WON'T use any major tool period no matter what. I dont like it when the pure positive trainers say NO PRONGS/E COLLAR, dont like it when heavily compulsion trainers say they DONT train with food. All of those things can be extremely useful under certain circumstances. Open minds


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Konathedog said:


> Do you incorporate treats into your ecollar training? My instructor said itll cause them to be dependant. What are your thoughts?


No, using treats won't make your dog dependant. An e-collar is plenty compelling enough that you can make your dog obey without treats. But, just like humans (except, I'll be wanting chocolate) treats are nice. Dogs love them, and what is not to love about an enthusiastic recall.
My dog recalls for a bunch of reasons.
Running is fun.
Chasing humans is fun (unfortunately, this human is not good at running).
Getting treats is fun.
Because I have to (e collar). I can't think of a reason to eliminate the fun stuff just because I have an e collar.

One good reason to eliminate treats (encountered another e-collar user in the woods, and he doesn't use treats because of this) is that if your dog can't handle off-lead dogs mobbing you for hotdogs, and you are training in a place where this will happen, you will need to leave the treats at home.

If your dog is motivated to chase a toy, even better (mine is not).

Fading rewards, teaching delayed rewards, variable rewards (toys, praise, petting, scritches, door open, etc.) are part training with treats and anyone using treats needs to know how to do these things.

...and it's great to be on a forum where we can all just speak our minds, freely.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yeah, we are dangerously close to "going there" with this debate over using food. I guess for me in a nutshell it is like this: I don't like to hear that any trainer WON'T use any major tool period no matter what. I dont like it when the pure positive trainers say NO PRONGS/E COLLAR, dont like it when heavily compulsion trainers say they DONT train with food. All of those things can be extremely useful under certain circumstances. Open minds


Exactly!It's especially important if you hit a bump in the road and what you've ALWAYS done successfully just isn't working.Look from a different perspective and try something new


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The food can also work great tl de stress a dog learning a compulsion exercise. Sometimes they do get stressed out. I don't like to leave a dog hanging feeling crappy. If I can whip out a treat and get them through it and get them relaxed and happy again, I will.


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## Konathedog (Aug 1, 2016)

*update*

With my trainer I am to spend 1 hour each day reinforcing recall and sit. 

Today I incorporated liver treats vs the usual "good" and pet, and she was more responsive. :grin2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yeah, we are dangerously close to "going there" with this debate over using food. I guess for me in a nutshell it is like this: I don't like to hear that any trainer WON'T use any major tool period no matter what. I don't like it when the pure positive trainers say NO PRONGS/E COLLAR, dont like it when heavily compulsion trainers say they DONT train with food. All of those things can be extremely useful under certain circumstances. Open minds


Aww well ... sigh ... I guess I wasn't in the Dog Park, kicking over "Sacred Cows" as much as "I" was out there digging holes and "tripping into them??" 

I often give good advice and don't necessarily follow it myself. I almost got stitches in the face screwing around with a fearful,nervous dog, and using a treat to "spontaneously" train a down. Yeah that was exciting ... but another story for another time. 

What I should have said ... sigh ..."Thank You David" was that *"any tool improperly used can be abused." Treats/Food/ and Toys are merely tools and understanding how to use them "properly" and when they are "applicable" is what is important. 
* Having said that ... one would think that ... well if a lot us agree that a "balanced approach" is the way to go then we'd all "interpret" that the same way at least?? Well ...yet again "apparently not??" 

Other than "there shall be consequences" for "Poor Choices" thing. Apparently the field is pretty wide there also?? It's like a big "See Saw" and everyone takes a position on it. I think I'm in the side that is up in the air??? But often in the midst of kicking stuff over and digging holes and stuff ... I stop and go ..."wait ... what??"









So in an effort to upright some cows and fill in some holes. I should have said something more along the lines of *"I" ... don't use treats or food because it adds a variable, that "I" feel no need to deal with "myself." But yeah that's me. *

So time to stop kicking and digging. I did find a "Trainer" that does use treats and often explains to "JQP" how and when to use them and some of the pitfalls. Yep ... that's what I should of said! So ... I'm gonna put a leash on my next trainer, that makes me look tame. 

And instead go with a more "rational Trainer" Bethany ... my emergency "Puppy Stuff" trainer. And most likely she will mention "Treats" and how to use them "properly" at some point in there?? If you know how to train a dog .. it's no big deal but if you don't she usually makes some good observations.

That said:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

That poor pointer- one of the highest energy breeds out there. He just needs to run or go hunting. That is a breed with energy to burn and they need to run all out. Fetch, bikejor, if you can't hunt them. 

Teach heel, correct for breaking heel with a prong, transfer to e-collar. The number of corrections you'll need will be much fewer- even if they are higher than "low level". It is a clear fair way of communicating with the dog. What I saw in that video was a bunch of nagging. The dog was just constantly being corrected, pointless.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I don't care for Bethany.She's not doing it correctly!The dog has learned nothing IMO.
Stay off of those teeter totters,Chip!Remember when the kid on the bottom would jump off?!:surprise:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wow...I mean...I guess she got the results in the end but I am surprised that she did.

And, that dog never looked at her, never even acknowledged her existence.

And...dog almost got away from her, she is videoing herself on a busy street, using an e collar for the first time, not looking at what is going on around her....yikes.

I wouldn't let her anywhere near my dogs.

But I don't care for the robo-dog approach. What is the point of going for a walk if the dog can't sniff the ground 

Meh. I could go on, but who am I...just some person....although when she said she was training another trainer my knee jerk response was this chick trains other TRAINERS!? But again, who the heck am I...nobody really


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... well I was "trying" to make "another" point. I've never used her as an actual E-Collar reference. Guess I'll have to check her out to see what not to do.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sorry Chip, I guess I missed the point of the video...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Wow...I mean...I guess she got the results in the end but I am surprised that she did.
> 
> And, that dog never looked at her, never even acknowledged her existence.
> 
> ...


I'll bet you could make a better training video than Bethany
Wouldn't it be fun if a bunch of us could borrow GS pointers and each post a video training loose leash walking 101?:grin2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Its ironic because I did e collar train a pointer mix foster awhile back. She looked a little like a lab but has the silouhette of a GSP, definitely the brain of a GSP and she did point. But yah, whoever said that dog just needs to run is so right.

My little dog was such an outlaw, her one goal in life was to escape the humans so she could have a good run, and you could NOT catch her once she got away a d she was a master at slipping out of doors, out of collars ect. E collar saved her life, I taught her a recall and then said just come when I call and you can run all day. Then I taught her to walk on a leash but there was no fantasy world where leash walking was going to satisfy her.

I mean, I know not everybody lives on acreage or has access to places to offleash dogs, and if that is where those people live with that dog....I guess they gotta do what they gotta do. Its a tough one. What are they going to do, rehome it to the mythical home in the country with room to run? My foster got the last one of those

I have E Collar trained dogs to be able to rollerblade on a flexi so they could go at "their" pace.

Dogs like that dont belong in the city. But people get dogs they shouldnt have all the time


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip, the teeter-totter is not with trainers or methods. You are missing the big picture. The teeter is the dog. The dog drives the method and tools you should choose to use for a given situation. I advised you to whack your dog with the free running end of the leash when he was surging. I looked at the dog and the situation and came up with a method that I though would work without nagging the dog a hundred times, or shutting the dog down. That method is A way to handle the situation, definitely not THE ONLY way to do it. Different dog, different methods.

You teach dogs to loose leash walk with a SLL. That's fine, for the dogs you have trained. I use a prong on most dogs, but on some dogs I just use a flat collar. Some dogs I just use luring and an e-collar to teach heel without a leash. The method, level of correction, choice of reward, venue in which you train... all those are the teeter totter. Everything should fit the dog, OR the dog must fit the trainer and his one track methods.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Chip, the teeter-totter is not with trainers or methods. You are missing the big picture. The teeter is the dog. The dog drives the method and tools you should choose to use for a given situation. I advised you to whack your dog with the free running end of the leash when he was surging. I looked at the dog and the situation and came up with a method that I though would work without nagging the dog a hundred times, *or shutting the dog down. * That method is A way to handle the situation, definitely not THE ONLY way to do it. Different dog, different methods.
> 
> You teach dogs to loose leash walk with a SLL. That's fine, for the dogs you have trained. I use a prong on most dogs, but on some dogs I just use a flat collar. Some dogs I just use luring and an e-collar to teach heel without a leash. The method, level of correction, choice of reward, venue in which you train... all those are the teeter totter. Everything should fit the dog, OR the dog must fit the trainer and his one track methods.


That is a very critical piece of information that is given so little consideration and frequently missing from advice on here. GSDs are supposed to be bright, alert, intelligent, and engaged. They should have the look of eagles, not have a flat or disengaged demeanor.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Chip, the teeter-totter is not with trainers or methods. You are missing the big picture. The teeter is the dog. The dog drives the method and tools you should choose to use for a given situation. I advised you to whack your dog with the free running end of the leash when he was surging. I looked at the dog and the situation and came up with a method that I though would work without nagging the dog a hundred times, or shutting the dog down. That method is A way to handle the situation, definitely not THE ONLY way to do it. Different dog, different methods.
> 
> You teach dogs to loose leash walk with a SLL. That's fine, for the dogs you have trained. I use a prong on most dogs, but on some dogs I just use a flat collar. Some dogs I just use luring and an e-collar to teach heel without a leash. The method, level of correction, choice of reward, venue in which you train... all those are the teeter totter. Everything should fit the dog, OR the dog must fit the trainer and his one track methods.


 I always appreciate your "insight" David. Just thought I'd spell that out in case it wasn't clear. On account of I'm me and stuff and often get in the way of my message. 

That said and to be clear, this time ... I am speaking for myself. 
My "personal dogs were not trained with a SLL. When I started to the "Walk Thing" right I used a "Flat Leash and Regular Collar." And I became very very good at it. It was only in retro spec, many years later that I discovered what I had be doing was this.:





So "nope" I was "not" a "SLL" "guru" the first time I had ever laid eyes on one "was" at a Boxer Rescue event. And they said "walk' this dog, he pulls and use "This (SLL)." And ... "oh yeah" "Fear of people issues." Have fun. 

And yes as I outlined a dog "I" just met and a "tool" I was given in less than 4 minutes ... that dog walked on leash as well as my "Struddell" which is high praise indeed. 

And there were many other between "Fear Dog" and "Deer Dog" but "Deer Dog" yep four minuets or less, but this time I had taken the leash from a "Struggling" owner. I never had hands on that dog before and again "same results excellent on leash in 4 minutes or less." The unexpected arrival of the "Deer??" Was just icing on the cake. :surprise:

As to ... "THE ONLY" way to do it. That depends entirely what your "parameters are???" 

If one's goals are "confined" to there own Dog??? Sure use whatever you want. But "my" goals extend beyond "my" dogs. I work with "Rescues" and I can't speak for "other" States and all "Rescues." But the ones I deal with and am aware of "Will NOT" let anyone put a "Prong" and most certainly "NOT" an "E-Collar" on any of there fur babies. Yes they "will" PTS first! 

But ... they will "give you" a SLL! So yes ... "I am that guy" and I happen to "thrive within the "constraints" they put on me. 

I've seen "Prong and E-Collar" only "Trainers" get "stuck" when for whatever reason, they get involved in "Shelter Rescues" and need a tool and get "Shut Down" when they "no longer" have the "option" of using there tools of choice, "Prong and or E-Collar" ... "Yeah That's Not gonna happen!" 

Sean and Larua ... "The Good Dog" guys, where trying to help a "Trainer" in just such a situation. I saw it unfolding on FB. I merely suggested that a "SLL" would be idea for such a "situation and it can also serve as a "DDC." I got two thumbs up on that one and they passed the tip along. 

I actually understood that a "SLL" could also serve as a "DDC" through one of "Sean's" Q&A Saturday's, yep I use one all the time but I always thought it was either a "Rapier" (Train the Dog) or a "Battle Axe" (Hang the Dog) which I have never had need to do) but the "DDC" ... thing shades of grey. So I was merely returning the favor. 

"No one" knows everything about training a dog. Ironically enough for me "because" I was so good at doing what I do, training a dog to "not be a fool on leash." I was not prepared for the only "issue" I had with" Rocky, the "hobby horsing in front of barking dog behind fences?? I was "expecting people" problems and most likely I would have "blocked" his access(Wobbler Thing). But the "HH" I was stuck?? I voiced my dilemma and you pitched in, worked out great!

Incidentally when I said on "Boxerfroum that I only needed to do it "once!" The "Pro" on there found that hard to belive. 

Aww well ... most likely there are others like me out there, not a "Pro" but not exactly "JQP" average "Pet Owner" either?? Except mostly, unlike "me" they chose a "saner" option and no one hears from them?? :nerd: 

The ability to find answers and share what I know is the only thing I do. Not really sure why I continue to fight the standard "Find a Trainer" refame??? 

The "Pirate's Lair" approach seems to be looking like a pretty good option lately, a search on Google says I've done more than my share to help "JQP" ... 

At any rate "this" post/reply "is" just about me.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is a very critical piece of information that is given so little consideration and frequently missing from advice on here. GSDs are supposed to be bright, alert, intelligent, and engaged. They should have the look of eagles, not have a flat or disengaged demeanor.


Sigh ... so now "Calm Demeanor'" gets "translated to" flat or disengaged??" 

If I actually hear anyone "say" that I'll report back! In the meantime ... I actually have a member I "need" to get back to.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bickering or one upmanship?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Bickering or one upmanship?


LOL ... "good one!" I suppose ... I can't respond without engaging in either??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... "good one!" I suppose ... I can't respond without engaging in either??


At least not without other people being blamed for it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Sigh ... so now "Calm Demeanor'" gets "translated to" flat or disengaged??"
> 
> If I actually hear anyone "say" that I'll report back! In the meantime ... I actually have a member I "need" to get back to.


You know, there are ways to disagree without being confrontational, that add to a discussion rather than shutting it down. The people you are calling out are remarkably patient with you. 

Watch the videos. Look at the dog's demeanor. I've seen some posted here, not just by you, where a dog that is over corrected or not trained properly moves like it is terrified of its owner. I "fired" a trainer when I saw his own dog with flat affect and no enthusiasm. It was just going through the motions. I hired another one after watching a video where the handler's own dog responded with joy and obvious pleasure.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> I always appreciate your "insight" David. Just thought I'd spell that out in case it wasn't clear. On account of I'm me and stuff and often get in the way of my message.
> 
> That said and to be clear, this time ... I am speaking for myself.
> My "personal dogs were not trained with a SLL. When I started to the "Walk Thing" right I used a "Flat Leash and Regular Collar." And I became very very good at it. It was only in retro spec, many years later that I discovered what I had be doing was this.:
> ...


Chip, for the record, my reaction to that first video would have been identical regardless of whether she was using a slip or a prong. I thought she was being unsafe the way she was handling the dog, I didn't like her yo-yo technique, I didn't like the look of the dog at all...and again, I could go on.

My personal aversion to slip leads is there is no safety stop to keep it from continuing to choke the dog. That just mentally freaks me out. And lots of pet owners don't know how to teach their dogs to yield to pressure or even that they need to, and I have seen plenty of thise dogs hauling around on choke chains with their eyes popping out of their heads. None of that is relevant to proper slip lead training I am sure. I don't honestly know how to do it properly and so it isn't a tool in my tool box. I am sure I have not gone out of my way to learn because like I said, it just freaks me out (thats my #&$*, not to do with a training method)

And I wholeheartedly agree with LuvShpherds, calm demeanor and an overcorrected, shut down robo dog is not the same thing.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Another problem with slip leads is that the only way to increase the correction power of just pressure, is to hang the dog.

I do not want to have to resort to hanging my dog as a correction technique. Who does, really?

If there are better tools out there with better timing and less of a "lasso the bronco" fight that could result, I will and do use them. 

E-collar is one of the best ways to give a dog a powerful correction without a physical or emotional-mental battle with the dog. 

With a slip lead, a dog can power through the choking and over power the handler. 

More important, I don't want my dog to think he is engaged in a fight for his life. If you have ever been half choked by anything- super scary. A few times I've felt that sensation of choking and it is one of the scariest things I've experienced. Putting a dog through being choked or hanged, I don't like it, give me a good prong correction or e-collar any day. A prong or e-collar won't cut off a dog's vital function of breathing and put him into a fight for his life. 

If a rescue would rather kill a dog that use a prong? I don't know, that is a twisted ideology, that I can't wrap my head around.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> Another problem with slip leads is that the only way to increase the correction power of just pressure, is to hang the dog.
> 
> I do not want to have to resort to hanging my dog as a correction technique. Who does, really?
> 
> ...


Welcome to my world. I have literally had to live a double life to avoid being found out by my pure positive training mentors. Some of those folks are pretty rabid. When a good friend watched my dogs for me for my honeymoon, I boxed up the e collars and hid them in the attic so she would not stumble upon them. Because I honestly think it would have been the end of our friendship but not without a horrible confrontation about me abusing my dogs.

These are trainers who absolutely do recommend euthanasia rather than giving the dog a correction. It is not a myth, I have had a very real conversation with a CPDT where she told me she was recommending euthanasia for a client's dog for a scenario that could possibly have been solved with some good balanced training. I mean thats not what she thinks, kill it rather than correct it, correcting just isn't a thing. Not in their mind. So if reward and ignore and manage doesn't work, that's it.

And I totally drank the kool aid and was on board for awhile, I think I even preached to some people (hanging head in shame).

I guess the dealbeaker for me was that I adopted one of "those" dogs, who PP trainers would give the needle. After I had exhausted my repetiores, I bought him a Dogtra 1900 field star, solved the problem and wound up with a happy, reliable dog with boundaries who got to live out his life with us until he died of cancer.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

E-collars are worth their weight in gold to me. I have never had anyone question my use of them, and it is pretty obvious my dogs are wearing them when we are out and about. 

I barely need to correct a dog these days, but I have them if I need them. 

Just few days ago, we spooked a deer right next to a highway. I didn't even have to use the collars. Because of the training my dogs didn't chase it into the road. Good for deer, good for dogs, good for everyone. 

I am not all about keeping a dog alive who will take a lot of training and is in a shelter with no owner. But to kill a dog who has a caring and loving owner and who wants to do whatever it takes just for propaganda, and for lack of education on how dogs learn and think. Wow. Because PP is the only way, and dogs are such delicate flowers they can't take a correction? That is a real shame and honestly criminal, in my opinion. 

I mean criminal, literally. I think dog training needs some sort of regulation. Or some way caring owners can find out what is real and what isn't. I have never seen a profession more full of people who know so little about what they are being paid to do. 

There are a lot of good trainers out there, for sure. Really really good trainers who do wonderful work. But you almost need a degree in human psychology to see past the snake oil.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> You know, there are ways to disagree without being confrontational, that add to a discussion rather than shutting it down.


 Yes a fine art I have yet to fully master???
Still I have had my "success" "I" finally managed to get our "Pro" back on board on "BoxerForum" after about 8 months of random apologies. :grin2:




LuvShepherds said:


> The people you are calling out are remarkably patient with you.


Aw well here's the thing ...you perceive it as "calling them out?? And I perceive it as "explaining what I do and how thus "enhancing" further discussion. 

But you know if people prefer this:

*OP: I have a problem and it is ... blab,blab ...
Collective response: "Find a Trainer."
OP: Great advise ..."Thank You!"
*
Who am I to "disagree???"

In anycase ... you can't unring a bell. So to "all those" I have inadvertently offended ... "I extend my humblest "Apologies.":


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Another problem with slip leads is that the only way to increase the correction power of just pressure, is to hang the dog.
> 
> I do not want to have to resort to hanging my dog as a correction technique. Who does, really?
> 
> ...


 LOL ... perfect timing. If I go into yet another long detailed "analysis" of why "I've" found the "items" you've listed "not to be the case" ... then yet again I'm being "argumentative and combative .... 

So "this time" I'll simply say ... "OK Then" and ... I'll get on the line to Cesar and tell him ... "sorry dude" apparently we're wrong?? Pretty sure he has a FB page.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Aw well here's the thing ...you perceive it as "calling them out?? And I perceive it as "explaining what I do and how thus "enhancing" further discussion.


That's what it seems like to me when anyone intentionally disagrees with someone who has extensive training experience in a way that makes it sound like they are wrong. That might not be your intention (or a few others who do that) but it comes across as argumentative. If people are leaving a forum for 8 months due to something someone says, the person doing the talking needs to stop and think about how their posts look to other people.

I see people here with enormous experience that humbles me. MAWL and Muskeg are owners with awesome experience and dogs that reflect that. SlamDunc, David, people who train very difficult dogs, all know more than I do. When they speak, I listen and I don't argue. Same with the moderators and anyone else I left out with more experience than I have had. I've owned a lot of dogs, I've done rescue, but I'm still far from perfect, so when someone else has a better suggestion than I do, I back off.

When I wasn't training because the dogs I owned at the time were done training, methods changed and left me behind. Then I got involved with rescue which always meant untraining and retraining, which are unique skills I have and which don't apply too much to puppies. So I have also watched a lot of videos and tried things and made some mistakes. 

At first I loved JG's style, but I was showing someone his pit video and they noticed there are a lot of stops and starts in the video, which mean edits. So he didn't just go from a hyper pit in a shelter that couldn't be walked to an adoptable pet. He did all kinds of other things in between that made the dog adoptable. And we never see the dog in a new home, so who knows if the training stuck or not?

I rambled a little but that I what I'm thinking in response to your post.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Chip- I respect Cesar, I have learned from watching him.

Here is a video example of improper use of a slip lead. Go to around 8:20 in the video. Or watch the whole thing. Keep in mind, any "hanging" the dog is edited out, but you can see the results. Not good. 






Each dog is different, and each handler is different. But you can see in the video how a slip lead puts the dog into a fight for his life state of mind, and he comes up the leash at Cesar, and Cesar hangs him. Pretty rough.

A proper understanding of punishment and timing is important for any tool when dealing with a dog like Shadow, but given my size and physical strength, I do not want to get in a fight like the one shown in the video with my big male, or any of my dogs, nor do I want that type of relationship with my dogs. I like to use training techniques that don't involve an all-out brawl and that level of conflict- and moreover confusion.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> That's what it seems like to me when anyone intentionally disagrees with someone who has extensive training experience in a way that makes it sound like they are wrong. That might not be your intention (or a few others who do that) but it comes across as argumentative. If people are leaving a forum for 8 months due to something someone says, the person doing the talking needs to stop and think about how their posts look to other people.
> 
> I see people here with enormous experience that humbles me. MAWL and Muskeg are owners with awesome experience and dogs that reflect that. SlamDunc, David, people who train very difficult dogs, all know more than I do. When they speak, I listen and I don't argue. Same with the moderators and anyone else I left out with more experience than I have had. I've owned a lot of dogs, I've done rescue, but I'm still far from perfect, so when someone else has a better suggestion than I do, I back off.
> 
> ...


I also would really like long term follow up with some of these miraculously reformed dogs.

LuvShepherds you are more humble than I am....I probably HAVE argued a different perspective with someone whose experience vastly outweighs my own. Not that I should have.

But I can tell you right now if you put me in a room with Cesar I would argue till I was blue in the face against some of the crap he has done...because I think it is important for the well being of dogs 

That video is one of my favorite anti cesar videos. Notice the clips prior to Cesar meeting the dog? Family is already trying to "cesar" him on their own, including alpha rolls, on an animal that may even be a wolf hybrid. I even think they spliced an aggressive bark in during the big chokeout to make it seem like the dog was fighting and not choking

I mean at that point what was he going to do other than choke it out to protect himself, but he didn't have to bring it over threshold and then do his little foot kick meneuver on day 1....it all could have been avoided. 

One day maybe I will see the error of my ways again like when I was on board with pure positive. Then I will owe another round of apologies I guess.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I also would really like long term follow up with some of these miraculously reformed dogs.
> 
> LuvShepherds you are more humble than I am....I probably HAVE argued a different perspective with someone whose experience vastly outweighs my own. Not that I should have.
> 
> ...


What scares me about Cesar is how many people think he is the only trainer worth following. And the backlash against him that says no corrections should ever be used. He had his place at the time and when he started out was much milder. As he ran out of new problems to showcase, he began doing more dangerous and stupid things with dogs. I own his first season on DVD and found a lot of good tips. Now, I would never recommend him.

PO is just as dangerous in a different way. It makes people think all dogs can be changed or rehabbed with a few praises and treats. It has resulted in a lot of out of control dogs that people have no idea how to handle.

I love a good arguments but only when I'm sure I'm right and have good points, and then only if it won't offend anyone.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"You have to wait until he is no longer attacking and wants to relax"

Cesar says. When the dog has been without air until he is weak enough that Cesar can lay him over on his side. THAT is the sort of misrepresenting nonsense that drives me crazy.

Cesar did not even tell the other dog owner not to have her dog square off at the aggressive one, which is what triggered the stare, then the kick, then the "fight"

They said this dog didn't have these problems when they adopted it. I can't help but wonder if they at least partly caused it by their mimicking cesar beforehand.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> That's what it seems like to me when anyone intentionally disagrees with someone who has extensive training experience in a way that makes it sound like they are wrong. That might not be your intention (or a few others who do that) but it comes across as argumentative. If people are leaving a forum for 8 months due to something someone says, the person doing the talking needs to stop and think about how their posts look to other people.
> 
> I see people here with enormous experience that humbles me. MAWL and Muskeg are owners with awesome experience and dogs that reflect that. SlamDunc, David, people who train very difficult dogs, all know more than I do. When they speak, I listen and I don't argue. Same with the moderators and anyone else I left out with more experience than I have had. I've owned a lot of dogs, I've done rescue, but I'm still far from perfect, so when someone else has a better suggestion than I do, I back off.
> 
> ...


Hmm ... well you know "argumentative and combative???" Aww well ... the fact of the matter is if the people that "Do Not Know How To Train a Dog" "listen" to Jeff's "daily" and "Weekly" Q&A shows ... and that's is his audience. 

Most likely they'd be surprised to find that I tend to say the exact same things he does by and large. The edit thing .. is a new for me but you know "Jeff" says people don't need to defend him, he can do that himself. 

As for "ME" I don't agree with everything from anyone! Jeff uses "Food" thrown on the floor to rehab "aggressive" dogs all the time.

I'm "uncomfortable" with that approach myself. I don't want my dogs in the habit of "rooting around on the ground" looking for crap to eat!" But ... I deal with dogs one on one so "I" have no need of doing that myself. And he and I also disagree on the "SLL" I heard from him ... "That you can't correct" a dog properly using a "SLL???" ... that was news to me?? Course he also says he gives "Props" to those who "can" use that tool successfully. 

Perhaps I should go on "FaceBook" and let all the "tens of thousands" of people he's helped by posting what he does for "free" that they are wrong and he has not really helped them with there dog?? 

I could do that but "I" won't, of course anyone "here" is free to do so ...he's right here:

https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/ 

But be "respectful" those guys (I source) have a pretty low threshold for "tools!" 

Yeah ... most likely something like "that" is what I would have said in reply ...but you know ... "argumentative and combative???" 

So I suppose I can't say any of that without running afoul of being accused of being "argumentative and combative???" ???


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Pretty rough,inhumane, and pretty ineffective.The dog learned nothing


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> What scares me about Cesar is how many people think he is the only trainer worth following. And the backlash against him that says no corrections should ever be used. He had his place at the time and when he started out was much milder. As he ran out of new problems to showcase, he began doing more dangerous and stupid things with dogs. I own his first season on DVD and found a lot of good tips. Now, I would never recommend him.
> 
> PO is just as dangerous in a different way. It makes people think all dogs can be changed or rehabbed with a few praises and treats. It has resulted in a lot of out of control dogs that people have no idea how to handle.
> 
> I love a good arguments but only when I'm sure I'm right and have good points, and then only if it won't offend anyone.


The trouble is being sure I am right because I was sure I was right before lol.

Whatever. I just keep trying to learn everything I can and come up with the most humane, effective and fun way to work with dogs. And I do think a good correction is more humane than letting a dog practice nonsense until he is on schedule for the needle.

To anyone here I have offended I hereby apologize. I am just another bozo on the bus


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Chip- I respect Cesar, I have learned from watching him.
> 
> Here is a video example of improper use of a slip lead. Go to around 8:20 in the video. Or watch the whole thing. Keep in mind, any "hanging" the dog is edited out, but you can see the results. Not good.
> 
> ...


LOL ... outstanding! But yeah "no" have no need to do anything like that like. I guess most likely I saw something "other" than the obvious.

What I saw was an example of "Speed Training with a SLL." Most likely Cesar "Still" got that dog to walk well on a "SLL" in less than 10 minutes?? 

I don't know but I do know for me "normal" is about 4 to 5 minutes and I get "nothing" like that behaviour in protest??? But I don't have cameras rolling, so if the clock ticks off past five minutes ... I take notice??? This dog is different ... slow your roll. 

For me Big headed "Pitty" struck me as having "that" dog's potential?? So I slowed down, once I did get him moving, he threw yet another new behaviour at me "darting hard" in front of me?? 

It was more than 10 minutes, just to get him to move and ... no "Hanging Involved" but he was far from, walking well on a loose leash! With him, I would have used a "long line" and more of a "KMODT" approach and most likely ... sigh, a "Conversational Leash Work" approach. 

I "reserve" fighting with dogs to dogs that come after one of "mine" or dogs "under my care" ... not dogs I own or work with.  

So yeah again ... "I've learned something from Cesar! To bad he did not contact me before he started working with the "Pig Killing" Frenchy (Bulldog) ... I'd have loaned him my "long line" seems he did not have one on his property??

A fact he discovered "after" the fact. (Should have kept a leash on the dog.) But learning from the "mistakes of others" ... works also.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I was just involved in a similar type of conversation on a business blog yesterday and today. The situation is similar so I thought I'd share it.

The board is all volunteer which isn't right there because we are affiliate members in a for profit organization. We are asking for company rep help because of the conflicting and sometimes right, sometimes wrong answers being given to critical questions we have.

Due to conflicting answers over time, trust has been lost. It turned out that several of the board frequent flyers in fact have not been affiliate members for some time and were giving bad information out. They had no recent experience but didn't want to tone down being one of the top 6 responders to any problem posted. But they sure talked a good talk.

I had a situation I needed immediate help on and I knew this person was super experienced so I discounted other's opinions and went with them. Well, they answered 3/4's of the question for me and I just needed one tiny detail and they responded with "I can't answer that because I haven't been in sales in quite a while"....???

I don't know what is going to happen but the company says it needs a change to better serve its affiliates. I'm just saying, be careful who you trust online. They may be something different than you think they are. Take what you can use and leave the rest behind. Don't buy all into internet advice 100% because it is only what it is.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Some dogs don't give a crap about food rewards and with those types I just use physical and verbal praise. If I am training a very food motivated dog I will incorporate food rewards but in certain ways. Depending on the dog I will lure with food and then start rewarding with food randomly and not as often and with some dogs I will reward randomly. I want to build the hope that a food reward is coming, not always having it dangling in front of their face because I want them to understand how to get the reward, not always have it come easy. How does Las Vegas keep people coming back to their city and spending money?.... Because of the hope they will hit a jackpot and be heavily rewarded for what they desire.


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