# Schutzhund genetics



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I have a 20 month old female GSD of European bloodlines from WGSL and Croatian WLs. A lot of time is spent training her. She knows 30 commands, is hard, stands for gunfire and has shown she can be protective. I am not interested in starting bite work with her. However in her 8 generation pedigree there are 154 Schutzhunds. Thats is, 154 schutzhunds and 102 untitled dogs. Recently I tried a new way of playing. I act aggressive. By golly a scary change comes over her. Her eyes light up and she seriously wants to fight. I do not want to go down this road. Could this be genetic?


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

You may be playing with fire having her go into defense against you.....worked in the sport for over 20 years...


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

For some reason I thought your dog was a show line, or half show line...anyway, I don't know enough to speak with authority, but a 20 month old is still maturing. It could be that Inga is in a phase in which she's pushing boundaries, or it could mean she's starting to show more of the adult she'll become.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

I would definitely not act aggressive towards her, that's like poking a bear. You don't want her to see you as something she needs to be wary or concerned about.

With genetics, they come into play in building the foundation of the dog. They will help build temperament, drive, demeanor, etc. It's up to you as the owner/handler to mold that foundation into what you want. If you don't want a schutzhund dog, then you may need to find something else to work her in if she has a lot of energy and drive. 

Was she temperament tested as a pup? Can you post her pedigree? Is she well socialized, calm in new situations, etc? I would not recommend trying to trigger any sort of protective response unless you're in a situation where you are intentionally training for it.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I believe she is a showline. Showlines can have protective instincts even american showlines- lol! I see some traits in Luna - she is wgsl- with that bark -they do for bark and hold in - ipo-she did that with a cat she cornered up in a tree. It is that repetitive bark sequence sounded like she was at a ipo trial. I tried to tape it because it was not her usual bark and i got excited lol. She also does that hop to -if she is in her crate and I go to let her out she will do that repetive hop up and down you see at the bark and hold. I have to wAit till she stops then let her out. Luna also puts her nose to the ground and it stays there like a bloodhound all these traits I can see comes from her ipo heritage it’s pretty cool.

Yeah why would you want to act aggressive towards her it makes no sense especially because you don’t know what you are doing. she needs to trust you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It could be you just really don't know what you are doing and causing issues. Schutzhund is a test. Not genetics. And a solid dog should not become aggressive with the hand that feeds them. My dog has a world champion and vice world champion in his pedigree. Has his firat title and working towards his others. But he's not going to bite me.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> For some reason I thought your dog was a show line, or half show line...anyway, I don't know enough to speak with authority, but a 20 month old is still maturing. It could be that Inga is in a phase in which she's pushing boundaries, or it could mean she's starting to show more of the adult she'll become.


WGSL dogs have to be titled in order to register their puppies, or they did anyway. That can be herding, tracking or Schutzhund. I only counted the Schutzhunds. I was surprised how many there were. Yes Inga is still a teenager, she does have her days....


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Don't worry I'm not playing aggressive with her anymore  

I know Schutzhund is a test. But dogs that score schutzhund 3 had to have some kind of innate aggressiveness and also be biddable, which to me is the most important. And Inga is certainly biddable. And our relationship was not ruined by me playing rough. It was just surprising how much she liked it.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

When counting the schutzhunds and non-schutzhunds, did you take line breeding into account? Does Inga have 254 unique ancestors?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I notice dogs that score Schutzhund 3 are usually males.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> When counting the schutzhunds and non-schutzhunds, did you take line breeding into account? Does Inga have 254 unique ancestors?


 I'm sure there was line breeding but I did not look for that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jenny720 said:


> I believe she is a showline. Showlines can have protective instincts even american showlines- lol! I see some traits in Luna - she is wgsl- with that bark -they do for bark and hold in - ipo-she did that with a cat she cornered up in a tree. It is that repetitive bark sequence sounded like she was at a ipo trial. I tried to tape it because it was not her usual bark and i got excited lol. She also does that hop to -if she is in her crate and I go to let her out she will do that repetive hop up and down you see at the bark and hold. I have to wAit till she stops then let her out. Luna also puts her nose to the ground and it stays there like a bloodhound all these traits I can see comes from her ipo heritage it’s pretty cool.
> 
> Yeah why would you want to act aggressive towards her it makes no sense especially because you don’t know what you are doing. she needs to trust you.


when you say "with that bark - they do for bark and hold in - ipo-she did that with a cat that she cornered up in a tree. It was that repetitive bark sequence sounded like she was at a ipo trial"

that makes me want to cry . 
that is a big problem with the bark in hold in IPO --- it is PREY , as was your dog and the tried cat 

The dog is supposed to show authority , daring the bad guy to move -- holding him with non physical assertion --- NOT the give-me-the-sleeve , not prey 

I move this from the dogs in Sweden and Norway thread

"Quote:
Originally Posted by marwin View Post
Based in Norway yes so importing a puppy from further away is tricky with the current legislation. Have had WL dogs before and been very happy with them as family dogs. Have looked at some local SL breeders but it's awful to see what they have done to the development of the breeds back. For me health comes first without a doubt."
HHH
I totally agree that many SL breeders breeds bad dogs, and for a sport dog or working dog I would never have thought the idea of ​​having one of these lines. For me it's not the dogs health the worst part, because there are problems with some WL also, but SL hasn’t the temperament or mentality who is needed


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Here are some examples of behaviors I did not teach her. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/721570-inga-protective.html

"That bark" she mentioned. When Inga senses something outside in the dark she also jumps completely off the floor with that big WOOF bark. Jump-WOOF! jump-WOOF!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I'm sure there was line breeding but I did not look for that.


Just curious because I also have a dog who is a product of two different line types, and while she's got a rather low linebreeding coefficient, she definitely doesn't have 254 unique ancestors in 7 generations. Her sire has more linebreeding than her dam (and they do happen to have a couple of common ancestors back there) but there is some.

However, I did not count the schutzhunds back there on the WGSL side of the pedigree.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> WGSL dogs have to be titled in order to register their puppies, or they did anyway. That can be herding, tracking or Schutzhund. I only counted the Schutzhunds. I was surprised how many there were. Yes Inga is still a teenager, she does have her days....


Correction, WGSL dogs have to be IPO or Schutzhund titled to have their litters registered with the SV (tracking is obviously included in both IPO and Schutzhund). They also have to hold a show ranking and have completed a breed survey.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

[/IMG]

Here is the pedigree I drew off of pedigree.com. The yellow are the Schutzhunds. There are a lot of layers of paper and it gets all yellow back in there.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Carmspack-Aww Carmen don’t waste tears there is much more to cry about in the world. Yes that was prey. She was in prey no doubt. I hear all the dogs both lines do that same bark. Just commenting on the same bark! So everydog that does that same bark and hold are all in prey. Was not aware of that heat serious dogs do that same bark. Yes I read that hhh thread in Norway and the comment of them making not good family dogs because they are very busy. I had a working line one serious dog. He ooZed seriousness scared the crap out of people just lying there in a happy state of mind just watching. He was not hyper at all hyper in the slightest as the dogs from Norway sound like they are. He has an engine of a Mac truck and he turned it one and switched into different gears when needed. He liked his own space we did not get him From a pup can’t imagine he would be the greatest with young kids but he did come from a family with young kids. He did well with two people who were not experienced. Don’t see or hear to many dogs like that. I have a wgsl she is not extreme but I agree about a wgsl topline - not a favorite. Not all are crippled but would like a straighter top line. Not one line is perfect though all have certain thing i like best about them. I like my asl confirmation best out of all the lines I have some may not. I like to see how they both age. My working line was hit with arthritis quite young around 8 years old slowly escalated.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Correction, WGSL dogs have to be IPO or Schutzhund titled to have their litters registered with the SV (tracking is obviously included in both IPO and Schutzhund). They also have to hold a show ranking and have completed a breed survey.


I'm not into WGSLs so someone please correct me if I am wrong... But doesn't the SV accept HGH titles as the working title? 

I believe they can't get the VA rating without the IPO title, but wouldn't the V ranking still allow for litters to be registered?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> [/IMG]
> 
> Here is the pedigree I drew off of pedigree.com. The yellow are the Schutzhunds. There are a lot of layers of paper and it gets all yellow back in there.


Dang, that is tough to read. Can you post the pedigree.com link?


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> I'm not into WGSLs so someone please correct me if I am wrong... But doesn't the SV accept HGH titles as the working title?
> 
> I believe they can't get the VA rating without the IPO title, but wouldn't the V ranking still allow for litters to be registered?


Once upon a time it may have been allowed, but now the dog must at least have an IPO1 or SchH1. This is because a dog can not participate in a breed survey unless it has those titles. VA dogs have to be IPO2 or SchH2 or higher. 

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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> that makes me want to cry .
> that is a big problem with the bark in hold in IPO --- it is PREY , as was your dog and the tried cat
> 
> The dog is supposed to show authority , daring the bad guy to move -- holding him with non physical assertion --- NOT the give-me-the-sleeve , not prey


Thank you. I want my dog barking in aggression and transitioning to prey when the helper is moving. I want him staring the helper down daring him to move. And not every helper can work a dog like that.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Once upon a time it may have been allowed, but now the dog must at least have an IPO1 or SchH1. This is because a dog can not participate in a breed survey unless it has those titles. VA dogs have to be IPO2 or SchH2 or higher.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


when did that change go into effect? Just thinking about the Kirschental dogs.

How disappointing for the SV to do that. I am losing more and more respect for them every day.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> when did that change go into effect? Just thinking about the Kirschental dogs.
> 
> How disappointing for the SV to do that. I am losing more and more respect for them every day.


I think it was somewhat "recent." I'll have to do some digging. Yeah, they've made some decisions recently that I am not happy about. They've been letting up on working standards more and more. My WGSL dogs will still be titled in several areas, despite the standards. It's getting harder and harder to come across real drivey dogs in those lines. 

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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> when did that change go into effect? Just thinking about the Kirschental dogs.
> 
> How disappointing for the SV to do that. I am losing more and more respect for them every day.


Incorrect. HGH is still considered level to SchH as a working title. It is just so rare for obvious reasons.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Shepdad said:


> Incorrect. HGH is still considered level to SchH as a working title for breed surveys. It is just so rare for obvious reasons.


Really? I had a breed warden tell me different recently. USCA also says only SchH1.

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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Shepdad said:


> voodoolamb said:
> 
> 
> > when did that change go into effect? Just thinking about the Kirschental dogs.
> ...


I do not know much about ipo but I understood the hgh was equvilent as well. It is less often seen only because of availability for this is limited only in Ny upstate I think.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Thank you. I want my dog barking in aggression and transitioning to prey when the helper is moving. I want him staring the helper down daring him to move. And not every helper can work a dog like that.


thank you Jax.

it is such a serioius problem , TRAINING , decoy presentation , and genetics . 

Jenny go read again --- HHH said she could not use showline dogs for sport nor work because they do not have quote "but SL hasn’t the temperament or mentality who is needed"

the topic of this thread is IPO (sport) genetics . Titles do not a genetic make . ALL dogs in the SV system have to have a title - whether , and depending on judging and considerations , scores, great, poor , near miss , or even given.
I went to one trial where one dog had been tutored with one decoy who knew the flaws of the dog and practiced over and over and over again until the dog by familiarity and a good decoy read (decoy was good) --- could do the courage test.
Come the day of the trial during the dog was doing okay -. Time for the courage test ? What the heck -- the decoy is switched for the decoy the dog has been practicing with and there is still compensation with the decoy not running into , but running backwards . The trial by the
way was on home field.

so highlighting the number of titles is not something to be impressed by . It is a necessary evil.

I find as time goes by there is less meaning to the titles.

There can not be any change (in breeding and results) until a problem is acknowledged.

That is the cause for the tears.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Shepdad said:


> Incorrect. HGH is still considered level to SchH as a working title. It is just so rare for obvious reasons.


Oh good!!! Thank you

Glad that it was just a mistaken poster... 

I've been scouring the interwebs and brushing up in my German in the process trying to find some concrete info on this. 

Very relieved. So many wonderful breed characteristics that IPO just is not a good test for that show when working stock. I know the herding titles are not very popular these days, but it would be devastating to the breed to lose those instincts.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Really? I had a breed warden tell me different recently. USCA also says only SchH1.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


Gah. 

More confusion. 

I'm just gonna go wander back to my WL space. I understand the breeding of them better LOL


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Gah.
> 
> More confusion.
> 
> I'm just gonna go wander back to my WL space. I understand the breeding of them better LOL


Nope, I'm mistaken. I pulled the paperwork and HGH is listed as a prerequisite. I'm going to assume I was told incorrect or misunderstood info. Also, the USCA website lists SchH1 as the only acceptable prerequisite, so that's highly misleading.

Glad to see it's on there. 

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you. I want my dog barking in aggression and transitioning to prey when the helper is moving. I want him staring the helper down daring him to move. And not every helper can work a dog like that.
> ...


I understand this Carmen - you must know I love my showlines. I’m not opposed to improvements in the breed in any line. I do understand what you are saying. Acknowledgement sure is the first step - probably the hardest step. Titles surely effects the way breeding goals are lined up- (not that I have any experience with this) I’m a pet owner but can more then clearly understand this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jenny720 said:


> I understand this Carmen - you must know I love my showlines. I’m not opposed to improvements in the breed in any line. I do understand what you are saying. Acknowledgement sure is the first step - probably the hardest step. Titles surely effects the way breeding goals are lined up- (not that I have any experience with this) I’m a pet owner but can more then clearly understand this.


clearly evident and that is a good thing.
I am passionate about the whole breed .

If you love this portion of the breed, then you should be active in making sure that changes for the benefit , for the future , are pursued.

don't let breeders or systems settle back and do nothing . 

I would love a return to the mid 60s -- using Bernd and Bodo Lierberg as a guide for temperament and conformation. 
Even then those two dogs stood out because there was a general decline in temperament .

takes effort .


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

carmspack said:


> I would love a return to the mid 60s -- using Bernd and Bodo Lierberg as a guide for temperament and conformation.
> Even then those two dogs stood out because there was a general decline in temperament .


There had been discussions of cloning mammoths from DNA found in frozen carcasses in Siberia but then scientists pointed out that if someone really wanted, you can breed today's elephants back to a woolly mammoth by simply selecting for traits for generations like humans have done for centuries with dogs and farm animals. 

So it is possible to breed back to Bernd/Bodo and in less generations than back to mammoths.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> I do not know much about ipo but I understood the hgh was equvilent as well. It is less often seen only because of availability for this is limited only in Ny upstate I think.


20 minutes or so south of me! Amazing dogs. 

OP, have you ever gone to a club and seen what Inga can do? Having dogs that are titled in a pedigree doesn't mean a dog is capable. A little pressure can stop a big bad bark pretty easily.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I understand this Carmen - you must know I love my showlines. I’m not opposed to improvements in the breed in any line. I do understand what you are saying. Acknowledgement sure is the first step - probably the hardest step. Titles surely effects the way breeding goals are lined up- (not that I have any experience with this) I’m a pet owner but can more then clearly understand this.
> ...


I love the working line also. Amazing what those dogs do. I think it’s what most people fall in love with the breed. I enjoy a nice healthy dog who is capable of work and also enjoy family life. Regardless of the line. I have been very happy with each dog and enjoy learning about each one of their strengths. A clear head is monument and I carefully chose my dogs. Our working line had adapatability - he adapted to a family life which he was capable of more but yet he adapted even as an old man with our babies. He was also police trained and actually found our cat in the wall that was hiding before we moved- even with my unskilled commands. Yes effort and balance I think is a daily effort for all. One tract mind can get one in trouble. 
A


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> when did that change go into effect? Just thinking about the Kirschental dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> How disappointing for the SV to do that. I am losing more and more respect for them every day.



Paisleys dam (a Kirschental) only had an HGH title (Paisley has pink papers).


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I do not know much about ipo but I understood the hgh was equvilent as well. It is less often seen only because of availability for this is limited only in Ny upstate I think.
> ...


Oh wow you are lucky! Yeah this is not easy. Not many dogs can do this. My nosework instructor had received her hgh title and must of drove many hours to do this -very dedicated and paid off. Herding instincts to me is a important trait. Is your dog from him? I knows he is a breeder to.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> Oh wow you are lucky! Yeah this is not easy. Not many dogs can do this. My nosework instructor had received her hgh title and must of drove many hours to do this -very dedicated and paid off. Herding instincts to me is a important trait. Is your dog from him? I knows he is a breeder to.


No. I just had the pleasure of meeting him at his trial.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh wow you are lucky! Yeah this is not easy. Not many dogs can do this. My nosework instructor had received her hgh title and must of drove many hours to do this -very dedicated and paid off. Herding instincts to me is a important trait. Is your dog from him? I knows he is a breeder to.
> ...


You are lucky if he was closer I would live to try it I hear he is tough. Sometimes I think it easier with more sheep but I don’t know so can’t really say that. I would to do this with max he loves sheep herding and this is a more natural way for a gsd - he would like this better. I think Luna will like it I have to work more training with her she is naturally easy so I have been slack with her.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> 20 minutes or so south of me! Amazing dogs.
> 
> OP, have you ever gone to a club and seen what Inga can do? Having dogs that are titled in a pedigree doesn't mean a dog is capable. A little pressure can stop a big bad bark pretty easily.



No I haven't, but there is a club in a nearby city. Its not just the bark, it is her send outs in the dark. And that I had to HOLD HER BACK from a bear. And that with obvious joy and in a frightening way she attacks me when I agress towards her in play. That the majority of dogs in her lineage were titled schutzhunds and, yes, probably some line breeding from said schutzhunds. That she is as hard and biddable as she is and gunfire does not faze her. To me, this is a lot of dog. How much of this can be genetic? This was my original question.

So how would a Schutzhund club test what Inga can do? Pressuring her in aggressive play made her more aggressive, but then, she knew it was me.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

carmspack said:


> thank you Jax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would someone please tell my showlines that they don't have the mentality to do sport/work? It would certainly save me a ton in training costs and driving... not to mention, it is exhausting.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> No I haven't, but there is a club in a nearby city. Its not just the bark, it is her send outs in the dark. And that I had to HOLD HER BACK from a bear. And that with obvious joy and in a frightening way she attacks me when I agress towards her in play. That the majority of dogs in her lineage were titled schutzhunds and, yes, probably some line breeding from said schutzhunds. That she is as hard and biddable as she is and gunfire does not faze her. To me, this is a lot of dog. How much of this can be genetic? This was my original question.
> 
> So how would a Schutzhund club test what Inga can do? Pressuring her in aggressive play made her more aggressive, but then, she knew it was me.


All clubs and trainers have a somewhat different evaluation process, but the big thing is testing for drive. They will see how she responds to a tug or a rag and assess what her drive is like. Evaluate for focus, etc. Most clubs and trainers evaluate all incoming dogs before training starts to see if the dog has the foundation to move forward with training.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Pedigree wont say IT all. Exbl. Mine has Asko von der lutter and Nick von heiligenbösch heritage strongly, still no way an ipo dog. And Asko was one of the best ipo dogs ever. 
Mine is much friendlier but with so good nosework it stunns me everytime in training. But ipo dog, no. Too "tame". 
And yes, tested but club didnt like the friendliness on him. Drives were awesome, so was the bitework but with overfriendly attitude and all, it wont do. Exaxtly myself i dont see it as the proplem, but for example pedigree, Asko was reverse, very aggressive, very tough to handle.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> No I haven't, but there is a club in a nearby city. Its not just the bark, it is her send outs in the dark. And that I had to HOLD HER BACK from a bear. And that with obvious joy and in a frightening way she attacks me in when I agress towards her in play. That the majority of dogs in her lineage were titled schutzhunds and, yes, probably some line breeding from said schutzhunds. That she is as hard and biddable as she is and gunfire does not faze her. To me, this is a lot of dog. How much of this can be genetic? This was my original question.
> 
> So how would a Schutzhund club test what Inga can do?


A lot can be genetic. But nothing you are saying proves much. Dogs bark at bears, and have to be held back. How close were you? What was the bear doing? 
Hard and biddable compared to what? Your experience? To you she might be hard and biddable. To me, she might be soft. 
Where is the gun fired? Next to her head? 
Most of ipo is obedience. But in bitework, will she bite and stay in the fight with pressure? Does she have the nerves to have self control? 
To be honest, a lot of us have dogs with ipo titles in the genetics. Doesn't mean that 1. Our dogs are capable and 2. It translates well. 
Plus being the mix of sl/wl, what traits do you have? My dog doesn't bark at anything. Until something comes toward him. It really means crap. 
So go see if your dog can do ipo. Then you'll know.

Oh, how to show a pedigree, copy the link on pedigree database, or the parents of your dog. Like this:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2504611-goldi-vom-black-power
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2504610-rommel-vom-kraftwerk


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

mspiker03 said:


> Would someone please tell my showlines that they don't have the mentality to do sport/work? It would certainly save me a ton in training costs and driving... not to mention, it is exhausting.


How many German Shepherd from Showlines can you find in IPO World Championship? (WUSV or FCI) I don’t think there is any SL in the police in Norway or Sweden. I’m sure there are many SL who are nice dogs to work with, but if you want to reach for higher sport you look for a WL. My knowledge is from skandinavian and european bred GSD, and I don’t know how they are in US. The quote is taken from a thread about Norwegian and Swedish GSD


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

HHH said:


> How many German Shepherd from Showlines can you find in IPO World Championship? (WUSV or FCI) I don’t think there is any SL in the police in Norway or Sweden. I’m sure there are many SL who are nice dogs to work with, but if you want to reach for higher sport you look for a WL. My knowledge is from skandinavian and european bred GSD, and I don’t know how they are in US. The quote is taken from a thread about Norwegian and Swedish GSD



This is not in reference to you specifically.... but sometimes it is very frustrating being on this forum and having a showline dog. Because, according to some, they pretty much are all crappy and can't do anything. I wish people (again not you!) would be more encouraging to others to get out there and at least try to do stuff with their dogs.

To me, and to many others here (as in US, not this forum specifically) it isn't about being a world competitor (even for those who own working line dogs). It is about going out, having fun, and learning.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

HHH said:


> How many German Shepherd from Showlines can you find in IPO World Championship? (WUSV or FCI) I don’t think there is any SL in the police in Norway or Sweden. I’m sure there are many SL who are nice dogs to work with, but if you want to reach for higher sport you look for a WL. My knowledge is from skandinavian and european bred GSD, and I don’t know how they are in US. The quote is taken from a thread about Norwegian and Swedish GSD


and not in German professional uses either .
that was part of the discussion here https://vimeo.com/36247596
even in the homeland of the breed!

your individual dogs may be good , and that is a good thing mspiker -- but all one has to do is to look at the annual crowning of Sieger "VA 1" results and there is cause for embarrassment .
I mean , that is the top of the top. 
Terrible.

THAT is the foundation for the GENETICS - as everyone climbs over one another to get a breeding , get a youngster to share in the potential , which is unfortunately $$$$$ .


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Not to burst bubbles...but not ALL titles coming on WGSL dogs are legit. Years ago had a person from Germany giving a seminar for our Schutzhund club talk about how some trials went. Lots of early morning stiff drinks, distracting the judge when certain dogs were working protection..I saw it with an American judge at the club I belonged to. Dog failed the first day. Repeated her 1 the next day. Exact same tracking, obedience and did her bark and hold standing behind the helper in the blind. Passes. By the way the judge stayed at the owner of dog and training field while she was there......


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

carmspack said:


> and not in German professional uses either .
> 
> that was part of the discussion here https://vimeo.com/36247596
> 
> ...



Well my dog is a son of one of those "embarrassing" VA1 dogs and I am perfectly happy. But hey - at least I am getting out there and trying to work my dogs. It is more than some people do...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

mspiker03 said:


> This is not in reference to you specifically.... but sometimes it is very frustrating being on this forum and having a showline dog. Because, according to some, they pretty much are all crappy and can't do anything. I wish people (again not you!) would be more encouraging to others to get out there and at least try to do stuff with their dogs.
> 
> To me, and to many others here (as in US, not this forum specifically) it isn't about being a world competitor (even for those who own working line dogs). It is about going out, having fun, and learning.


oh you mean me.

we are talking about genetics . 

it isn't according to me --- 

I do encourage you to go out and have fun. Push those dogs to the limit of having fun and experience .

but when one speeks to breeding and genetics , then my energy turns to being realistic .

nothing not addressed ever gets changed .

demand more and better of the show line breeders . Don't stand by the punch bowl and sip the same kool aide . 

if everyone challenged the SV , demanded better conformation - </title> <link rel="profile" href="http://gmpg.org/xfn/11"> <link rel="pingback" href="http://shawlein.com/wordpress/xmlrpc.php"> <title>SHAWLEIN.COM 
a turn around to better temperament - difficult to do when the very foundation , strongly in/line bred on a very flawed specimen , Canto , saturates every single line http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html 

not when Britain's club is so concerned over the freakish movement that they site cruelty .

It has got to change --- for the future .


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## HHH (Dec 5, 2017)

mspiker03 said:


> This is not in reference to you specifically.... but sometimes it is very frustrating being on this forum and having a showline dog. Because, according to some, they pretty much are all crappy and can't do anything. I wish people (again not you!) would be more encouraging to others to get out there and at least try to do stuff with their dogs.
> 
> To me, and to many others here (as in US, not this forum specifically) it isn't about being a world competitor (even for those who own working line dogs). It is about going out, having fun, and learning.


I have full respect for all who work with their dogs, one way or another. So long as the dogs and owners has fun, it’s way better than those who never do anything with their dogs. 
I’ve trained and competed with my rottweiler for several years, and it was as fun as it is with my GSD, even if he was (and still is) a stubborn ******* :grin2:


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Same here. I just hate to see gsd only as family dog. That is one reason why accidents happens. 
And i know gsds who only go out for a 15minute walk and thats all. It IS sad. 
Not a matter of just lineage, but to do things with ur dog. Being whatewer the heritage.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

pashana said:


> Pedigree wont say IT all. Exbl. Mine has Asko von der lutter and Nick von heiligenbösch heritage strongly, still no way an ipo dog. And Asko was one of the best ipo dogs ever.
> Mine is much friendlier but with so good nosework it stunns me everytime in training. But ipo dog, no. Too "tame".
> And yes, tested but club didnt like the friendliness on him. Drives were awesome, so was the bitework but with overfriendly attitude and all, it wont do. Exaxtly myself i dont see it as the proplem, but for example pedigree, Asko was reverse, very aggressive, very tough to handle.


But isn't schutzhund II tracking?
I Obedience
II Tracking
III Bitewrok


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> A lot can be genetic. But nothing you are saying proves much. Dogs bark at bears, and have to be held back. How close were you? What was the bear doing?
> Hard and biddable compared to what? Your experience? To you she might be hard and biddable. To me, she might be soft.
> Where is the gun fired? Next to her head?
> Most of ipo is obedience. But in bitework, will she bite and stay in the fight with pressure? Does she have the nerves to have self control?
> ...


Bear at 20 feet.
He was Sniffing around
Hard as she recovers from a strong e collar correction instantly and is ready to learn.
Biddable as she knows and follows 30 commands at a young age
Gun fired maybe 30 or 40 feet away, high caliber pistols and shot gun
I don't know about bitework as I do not want to train her to bite human beings
She is not allowed BS barking


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Overfriendlines Will Be proplem when competing track also. IT IS causing multiple proplems when no treat, play,toy wont interest as new people does. And when competing, there are much of lovable people.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

My puppy has a lot of Schutzhund 3 titles in her pedigree, several West German imports and the like. 
She has a high fight drive and intense concentration with me. 
But if a big stranger showed up and yellled “boo” she would run. 

The titles are there, but not the temperament.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

From Breed standard 
Temperament: The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not
hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate
and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and
showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised,
but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as
companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may
demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be
nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as
tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not
typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness
must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these
must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to
determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be
disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with
body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> But isn't schutzhund II tracking?
> I Obedience
> II Tracking
> III Bitewrok


Each Schutzhund/IPO title has all three phases. So for SchH1, they have to do tracking, obedience and bitework. The phases get more difficult with each level, but each level has all three phases.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Joys said:


> My puppy has a lot of Schutzhund 3 titles in her pedigree, several West German imports and the like.
> She has a high fight drive and intense concentration with me.
> But if a big stranger showed up and yellled “boo” she would run.
> 
> The titles are there, but not the temperament.


Big strangers showed up at our place in the woods and I had to hold her back by the collar as she walked forward barking ferociously See Inga is Protective.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

kimbale said:


> Once upon a time it may have been allowed, but now the dog must at least have an IPO1 or SchH1. This is because a dog can not participate in a breed survey unless it has those titles. VA dogs have to be IPO2 or SchH2 or higher.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


This is incorrect. A dog may hold an HGH and be surveyed. I believe, at the SS, the HGH dogs are shown in a separate class, but the HGH is a recognized breeding title.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

lhczth said:


> This is incorrect. A dog may hold an HGH and be surveyed. I believe, at the SS, the HGH dogs are shown in a separate class, but the HGH is a recognized breeding title.


Yes, keep reading. I corrected myself.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Big strangers showed up at our place in the woods and I had to hold her back by the collar as she walked forward barking ferociously See Inga is Protective.


I've had a similar experience with my ASL/WGSL dog. I honestly don't think she has what it takes for IPO, but she did stand her ground and growl menacingly at my uncle. I think in that moment she wanted to kill him and I think he was afraid she was going to. (Spoiler alert: I did not allow her to kill him. He remains among the living.) This is a dog that is relatively unflappable in everyday life but I wouldn't try to claim she's as hard as a good IPO dog by any stretch of the imagination; she'd likely not hold up under pressure on the field; and I've noticed in Nosework she tends to ask for a fair amount of handler support, if nothing else to know I'm still there, as opposed to a really independent worker who will just go to it and not care about anything but the job. These things are just fine for me and my purposes, but I don't think they're the hallmarks of an IPO prospect.

All that to say, I really agree with cloudpump's advice, which is to consider taking Inga to an IPO club and work with the trainers there and have them evaluate her. They have the experience and depth of knowledge to ascertain how Inga stacks up in terms of hardness and aggression and other such traits. Their assessment will give you a better picture of what you are looking at.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Bear at 20 feet.
> He was Sniffing around
> Hard as she recovers from a strong e collar correction instantly and is ready to learn.
> Biddable as she knows and follows 30 commands at a young age
> ...


Still. To me that's all opinion. Won't know until you actually did something with her. You'd be amazed how different your dog is when it's actually tested. 
And if a dog is going to bite, it'll bite. Doesn't have anything to do with a sleeve....


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> Nurse Bishop said:
> 
> 
> > Bear at 20 feet.
> ...


It sounds to me like Inga could pass the GSDCA Temperament Test...

That's about it, just from that description.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

"Big strangers showed up at our place in the woods and I had to hold her back by the collar as she walked forward barking ferociously See Inga is Protective."

I dont see the good point on this? Even My overfriendly dog was aloof one time, when two men were following us for a very long time. And only then.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> It sounds to me like Inga could pass the GSDCA Temperament Test...
> 
> That's about it, just from that description.


Thank you for the compliment. I just lucked out with Inga. She is my first non sight hound dog. Ive' had 9 sight hounds in my life. I got Inga because of living alone in the woods. I figured I'd need a real dog this time. Knowing nothing about the breed, breeders, bloodlines, the training required I picked Inga because at 5 weeks, she kept getting into my lap. Later I realized she was probably the dominant. She was a handful to train and knowing nothing, we used the CDs of a professional trainer. I am pleased with just the way she is. She does seem to have some appropriate aggression. After looking back in her pedigree I thought that must be why. Don't want to encourage it or anything. I like her the way she is.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

pashana said:


> "Big strangers showed up at our place in the woods and I had to hold her back by the collar as she walked forward barking ferociously See Inga is Protective."
> 
> I dont see the good point on this? Even My overfriendly dog was aloof one time, when two men were following us for a very long time. And only then.


I was remembering the last time I had an adult dog. She was a goofy lab but barked ferociously when anyone approached her territory. That’s probably not a good benchmark. 

If the OP doesn’t want to go down the road of IPO, that should be comforting.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Gosh. I dont want to encourage her to bite human beings. But SH I and II might be fun. The most I've done is drag a turkey leg all over the landscape. Of course she found it.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Gosh. I dont want to encourage her to bite human beings. But SH I and II might be fun. The most I've done is drag a turkey leg all over the landscape. Of course she found it.



Again - schh1 and 2 both involve bitework. (See above post somewhere)

But doing IPO is not "teaching dogs to bite humans." My dog LOVES my trainer, but he knows when the sleeve comes on.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Does this make them more likely to bite some random person or no goodnik?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

mspiker03 said:


> Nurse Bishop said:
> 
> 
> > Gosh. I dont want to encourage her to bite human beings. But SH I and II might be fun. The most I've done is drag a turkey leg all over the landscape. Of course she found it.
> ...


Yeah this is where max I know would not be good at this ipo part. he would not trust that person at all he would not see this as a game. He can be a handful. I can see how the dogs switch gears did not know if that was training or what.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sch/IPO 1 is level one. 
Sch/IPO 11 is level two.
Sch/IPO III is the top level. 

Each level involves all three phases - Tracking, Obedience, and Protection. This link explains each phase, and also each level: https://www.germanshepherddog.com/about/schutzhund-training/schutzhund-trials/


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

There are a lot of myths and misconceptions of IPO on this thread.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Does this make them more likely to bite some random person or no goodnik?



My male is probably more likely to jump on you and give you kisses than bite you. But - I have never tested him with a real threat. And I am not going to try and play the "let's see what he would do game."


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> Yeah this is where max I know would not be good at this ipo part. he would not trust that person at all he would not see this as a game. He can be a handful. I can see how the dogs switch gears did not know if that was training or what.



I think you may be surprised. The dogs know when it is time.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

mspiker03 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah this is where max I know would not be good at this ipo part. he would not trust that person at all he would not see this as a game. He can be a handful. I can see how the dogs switch gears did not know if that was training or what.
> ...


Yeah I’m always trying to figure this out.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

mspiker03 said:


> This is not in reference to you specifically.... but sometimes it is very frustrating being on this forum and having a showline dog. Because, according to some, they pretty much are all crappy and can't do anything. I wish people (again not you!) would be more encouraging to others to get out there and at least try to do stuff with their dogs.
> 
> To me, and to many others here (as in US, not this forum specifically) it isn't about being a world competitor (even for those who own working line dogs). It is about going out, having fun, and learning.


The only people you should concern yourself with in regards to your dog are the people you train with. They know your dog, not people posting on a forum.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Nigel said:


> The only people you should concern yourself with in regards to your dog are the people you train with. They know your dog, not people posting on a forum.



I agree and I certainly do. I feel pretty blessed to have found a really amazing IPO trainer from the beginning. But it is why I will never share anything more than tid bits about them here and there. Which is kinda sad. Why put yourself in a position to hear "that isn't good enough...your dog isn't a working line dog so that isn't great, you're dog doesn't do real herding (yup heard that one before)." It just isn't very encouraging...


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

You know I was talking about this to another forum member who I have met and who has met my dogs and how discouraging it feels. Then, I had just got back from training and my trainer had something really nice to say and I was super excited. The response was "who are you going to listen to - some person on a forum or the guy that has worked every top level gsd the last few years?" It was not a difficult question to answer


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I'm with Dogbyte. You are playing with fire with an inexperienced dog at this age. When I started SCH the new helpers were not allowed to work the inexperienced young dogs untill they had a good understanding of how to control the prey and defense drives. You want a good solid bond with your dog and you don't want to get him into a fight mode or even serious prey mode and confuse him on who is the bad guy and who is the good guy. It isn't that the younger dogs can't be worked in protection training but you have to really have to be aware of the changes that come over the dog as the threat increases or the prey moves. It's really subtle in some dogs and pronounced in others. That's why the helper work is so critical.

You talk about the bouncing off the feet when barking. My Aussie puts her whole body into barking. She is every bit as loud as the big GSD and can carry on rapid fire barking for a rediculously long time if she is frustrated. She gets four miles of barking at the livestock along the road after a long day at work. Then I say "no more barking". She can bounce but no noise. It took a while but she is pretty good about it now. She is allowed to bark at deer when we are driving and has saved collisions a number of times. She gets rewarded here. Even with this type of bark I don't do any protection work with her. The Drives and nerves just are not there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jenny720 said:


> Yeah this is where max I know would not be good at this ipo part. he would not trust that person at all he would not see this as a game. He can be a handful. I can see how the dogs switch gears did not know if that was training or what.


Come train with me, Jenny. You might be surprised at what your dogs have in them. And interested to see how the helper brings out the natural drives in the dogs.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah this is where max I know would not be good at this ipo part. he would not trust that person at all he would not see this as a game. He can be a handful. I can see how the dogs switch gears did not know if that was training or what.
> ...


This always interested me but felt it would bring Max’s sucspcion out more but was not sure. I sure dont want to increase that. I would like to see how they do this though.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sch/IPO 1 is level one.
> Sch/IPO 11 is level two.
> Sch/IPO III is the top level.
> 
> Each level involves all three phases - Tracking, Obedience, and Protection. This link explains each phase, and also each level: https://www.germanshepherddog.com/about/schutzhund-training/schutzhund-trials/


 Thank you, Mom. Most informative.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> This always interested me but felt it would bring Max’s sucspcion out more but was not sure. I sure dont want to increase that. I would like to see how they do this though.




I've wondered this too. Like, my dog doesn't like people staring at him or making prolonged eye contact. I've wondered if he ever tried to do IPO would it make him more sensitive or less sensitive to that or have no effect whatsoever? I think what I am trying to say is does it make the dog more likely to perceive a random person as a threat if they learn to fight with the helper? Or do they completely compartmentalize that this is something that I only do on the training field with the guy with the sleeve. 

I think my dog could enjoy it if it were taught to him as a game and had his confidence built up carefully

I don't know how to articulate what I am trying to say...partly because I don't really know anything about IPO-- I think he'd be a dog who would run if someone raised a stick to him unless he were conditioned to it ahead of time. Do they all get conditioned to seeing the stick get raised without ever being touched by it to start with? I am certain a man could run him off unless he was really taught carefully to push back and win, so I don't know how much of training is to condition the dog how to get confidence and how much they want it to be there in the first place, if that makes any sense.

Without knowing more about IPO all I can say is my dog would probably only be able to do whatever they can do in prey drive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IPO should not be "making" your dog anything. It should be showing you what your dog already has. The obedience and control will increase. It will help you better understand drives, temperament and nerve. But it will not create something that was not there to begin with unless you have a trainer destroy your dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes my concerns and questions answered. I wanted to look into this awhile ago but was uncertain. This is good I’m all for more control and obedience he seems to need to learn something new or his brain turns to mush lol! So does mine lol!
Cowboy girls - yes and trusting the right people to work with your dog. Which you can always get recommend names in your area another concern I had.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've wondered this too. Like, my dog doesn't like people staring at him or making prolonged eye contact. I've wondered if he ever tried to do IPO would it make him more sensitive or less sensitive to that or have no effect whatsoever? I think what I am trying to say is does it make the dog more likely to perceive a random person as a threat if they learn to fight with the helper? Or do they completely compartmentalize that this is something that I only do on the training field with the guy with the sleeve.
> 
> I think my dog could enjoy it if it were taught to him as a game and had his confidence built up carefully
> 
> ...



My gal-dog is suspicious of people. The first time I put her on the puppy table instead of eating treats she spent time staring at all the people staring at her. Her litter mates are bold and confident, but she, being the smallest of the litter of 11, had to learn to watch her back. For awhile she played the puppy rag game with our training director but when she hit about half a year old and they tried to introduce her to the tug, she didn't understand what they wanted her to do and decided they were all crazy and wanted nothing to do with them. 

At home in my yard she will happily do the entire BH routine, sharp and snappy and happy. On the training field she is too busy looking at the people along the fence. She is now 2 and it is very clear that lack confidence is the one thing that will keep her from being a schutzhund dog. All the elements are there but that, and that is HUGE. My gal can handle the crowds of the streets of Washington DC but if one person looks her in the eye just a bit too long she tells them to back off. A judge would test that and my gal would get a DQ (disqualified). 

Does that mean other pups might get past that and succeed? Maybe. Best to find a club and visit and see if the training director can take a look at your pup. Otherwise try another sport, like trailing, hiking, triball or nosework.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

pashana said:


> "Big strangers showed up at our place in the woods and I had to hold her back by the collar as she walked forward barking ferociously See Inga is Protective."
> 
> I dont see the good point on this? Even My overfriendly dog was aloof one time, when two men were following us for a very long time. And only then.


have to agree with this, that doesn't fully show how a dog will do in a given sport as IPO. 

for example, my gsd mix had gone after a dog that came onto my parents property and snapped at me. thankfully I was able to pull her off the dog and he escaped with a bloody neck and still roams freely to this day. youd think with that type of drive or instinct she would do ipo or at least bite work, nope not at all. she has no drive for it and couldn't care less for anything remotely like tug of war. we (my trainer and myself) decided its best not to push her out of her comfort zone and shes just a great family dog. 

I'm about to take on a new pup soon to utilize for ipo work and while the lines look accomplished I could still face the reality its not meant to be when the time comes for the dogs courage to be tested. to the OP as long as you enjoy your dog, worry less about whats on paper.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> IPO should not be "making" your dog anything. It should be showing you what your dog already has. The obedience and control will increase. It will help you better understand drives, temperament and nerve. But it will not create something that was not there to begin with unless you have a trainer destroy your dog.


The quality and consistency of "regular" trainers is so variable... I would have to assume similar in ipo clubs. 

I turned over his leash once in his life: to the clicker trainer at puppy class. I am not the trusting sort


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> IPO should not be "making" your dog anything. It should be showing you what your dog already has. The obedience and control will increase. It will help you better understand drives, temperament and nerve. But it will not create something that was not there to begin with unless you have a trainer destroy your dog.


But also...its practicing something. 

It's a moot point anyway, there are no clubs under a 2h drive from me and I just don't have that much time to commit to anything. I drove an hr and 45 min to track with an AKC club in another state and I would do that again but we didn't get there consistently.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" to the OP as long as you enjoy your dog, worry less about whats on paper."

I enjoy my dog AND I like whats on her paper. The traits she has are probably genetic.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Here is something I found that is useful for those unfamiliar with IPO/SH

What is IPO/Schutzhund | Austin Schutzhund Club


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Dunno If this was here yet.

http://leerburg.com/schvsknpv.htm


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Thank pashna. This is intesting- Leerburg | Can I Train My Own Dog in Bite Work?
I think this is what I saw when Inga agressed ferociously toward the bear and the possible no goodniks. The bark was like none I have ever heard, a sort of a roar, walking forward on her hind legs as I held her back by the collar.

" Defensive Drive:
For a dog to do police service work, serious personal protection work, or good Schutzhund work, it must have a solid defensive drive.
A dog's defensive drive is the drive to protect itself from a perceived threat. When a young dog is working in its defensive drive it is not in a comfortable situation. The dog thinks that it's in a position where it is being threatened or attacked and as a result it is stressed. For our training we want a dog, that even though it is unsure of its position, it will initially react to a limited amount of threat with an aggressive challenge.

This willingness to defend himself is an inherited characteristic. It cannot be trained into the dog no matter how hard you try. If a dog has not inherited the defensive gene there is no way we are going to make this dog a protection dog. A few good examples of this are most labs, golden retrievers, huskies or other such breeds. These dogs just don't carry the gene for protection work. The most that can be expected from these dogs is that it will bark at strangers. But when threatened, they will go into avoidance and run.

Even though a dog may inherit the defensive gene, a dog's defensive drive does not start to appear until it reaches puberty. For some dogs this can be 1 year of age - defense does not fully develop until a dog reaches mental maturity - this can be as late as 3 years of age, depending on the bloodline.

The picture we see of an untrained dog in defense is a different picture than what we have seen in prey work. Initially, defense is a picture of insecurity. That dog's bark will be deeper and more serious. The hair may be up on his back, and he will be showing a lot more teeth in the form of a snarl.

The hair up is a natural reaction to make himself look bigger and more serious. This is a common reaction for animals - we see it with Australian lizards, they have a flap of skin on their neck that flares up to make themselves look more ferocious. Hopefully this will scare predators away. The defensive bark is a deeper guttural bark. Once you identify it, there is a definite difference in the prey bark and the defensive bark.

In defense, dogs will often carry their tail different than in prey. The tail will not be wagging as much and will be carried lower than in prey.

A defensive bite is also different than a prey bite. It is done with the front part of the mouth. Often dogs will grip with a full mouth in prey and then only with the front of the mouth in defense. When you hear trainers say that the grip is weakened in defense, they mean the dog is only biting with his front canines and is often chewing on the sleeve.

New trainers should think of the tail and the grip or bite as a temperament barometer. When the dog's tail is up high and wagging, the dog is comfortable with what is going on. As more pressure is added the tail will wag less, it will come down and the grip will get weaker. If the pressure continues and the dog approaches avoidance, (which is the point where it will run away), the tail will be tucked between his legs.

The safest time to put a dog into defense is after it has reached mental maturity and after it has gone through the foundation work in prey drive.

The defensive drive can begin to show as young as 4 or 5 months of age in the form of barking at strange circumstances. It does not develop to the full extent until the dog is 18 to 24 months old and with some dogs not until they are 3 years old.

Experienced helpers can begin to introduce a young dog to defense when it reaches puberty. This is usually around 11 to 14 months. New trainers that make the mistake of introducing defense before a dog is mentally mature enough to deal with the pressure are making the biggest mistake of their training career. Pushing a dog into defense before it is mentally mature enough to deal with the stress is the quickest way in the world to end a dog's protection career.

If you have learned anything from this video so far - make sure it’s this: BE VERY, VERY, CAREFUL OF DEFENSE ON YOUNG DOGS.

Some dogs have excellent prey drive - but lack defense. A common example is the black lab that loves to chase balls but could never be trained in protection because it lacks defense.

Unlike prey drive, the defense does not diminish as the dog gets tired. Another way to look at it is that no matter how tired your dog is it is still going to react to someone that is threatening him.

American bloodline German Shepherds often have some degree of prey drive, but 99.9% of them have little to no defensive drive. That's why they cannot do Schutzhund work, much less police service work.

Working defensive drive takes a skilled helper that is adept at reading and understanding temperament and knowing exactly how far a dog can be pressured or threatened in defense before it is pushed into avoidance.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nurse Bishop that is not a particularly good , nor accurate account.

no challengers? "American bloodline German Shepherds often have some degree of prey drive, but 99.9% of them have little to no defensive drive. That's why they cannot do Schutzhund work, much less police service work."

is the understanding of defense correct?

is it defense that is used in LE? 

is defense REactive -- how about PROactive?

tjere are so many misconceptions and not understanding of some of the very basics of IPO , or genetics , on this thread.

some of the strongest assertions are made by those not yet having experience or understanding.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

carmspack said:


> Nurse Bishop that is not a particularly good , nor accurate account.
> 
> no challengers? "American bloodline German Shepherds often have some degree of prey drive, but 99.9% of them have little to no defensive drive. That's why they cannot do Schutzhund work, much less police service work."
> 
> ...


Yes, naturally, a lot of people want to talk about their own dog. This is what Mr. Leerburg says. Please look at his site for these answers. I think young Inga has shown defense drive and that this is genetic, although I do not wish to drive 100 mile round trips to do schutzhund training with her. According to Mr Leerburg, the next time she does show this behavior I will go toward the threat with her if possible (not a bear). If the threat runs off that will be a good thing. According to Leerburg, you do not want to pressure a young inexperienced dog into avoidance. You want them to become confidant that they can remove the treat.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

many of us, myself included have known "leerburg" -- his video productions , the dogs that he produced .
That goes back to the late 1980's -- way back.

no one is talking about a specific dog here -- just concepts .


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Nurse Bishop said:


> According to Mr Leerburg, the next time she does show this behavior I will go toward the threat with her if possible (not a bear). If the threat runs off that will be a good thing.



And what if the threat doesn't run off? Please do not do this. There is a reason good helpers/decoys do what they do. They control the dogs experience to make sure the dog is successful 100% of the time. That way after a while, it doesn't know it can fail. 

Yes I agree. Many people talk based off their experience with their one dog. Then there are those who are speaking off their experience with tens, hundreds or even thousands of dogs.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

As Jeremy says above, when training a dog it's critical to control the environment and experience your dog has in order to build confidence. If you're testing your puppy in the real world without having worked with him in private on these exact situations, without distractions, it really is a crap shoot, some will make it and some won't, but many of those who don't might have given the right environment. 

So, that being said, yes, in a controlled environment you want you and your dog to advance on the threat; but you also need to be sure that the threat retreats when this happens. In real life that's not always the case...which in why training is good, it's a totally controlled environment. If the first time you do this the threat decides to challenge you and your dog,, it could very well mess with her confidence for ever...


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

also the risk vs reward in the real world is far outweighed with negatives. as said above if the threat doesn't retreat you may have then placed yourself and your dog in a potentially dangerous scenario. there are many variables to this so the last thing that should be done is self training with no constant on the threat end of the test. 

the big thing to ask is what are you looking to accomplish with this?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Yea I get it that a young dog advancing on the threat must always succeed. Maybe we will go see that ScH club after all. They could evaluate her. 

I might need a ppd in Oregon. The place is up a river across from two wildernesses and the road in with *** removed by ADMIN *** camps and 10 houses being robbed last winter


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

the easier and more effective solution is to get a shot gun for home defense. not to sway you from moving forward with training as that's also a great idea but will take time to develop. plus if you are in your home and a threat enters you want to stop the threat with minimal risk to self harm or for me personally harm to my dog id think.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

A shotgun could not have told me that a bear was outside in the yard. 

Although there is nothing like the sound of a shotgun shell being racked into the chamber behind a door. https://www.soundsnap.com/tags/gun_chamber 
I used to have a barely legal sawed off shotgun but it burned up in a forest fire.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> A shotgun could not have told me that a bear was outside in the yard.
> 
> Although there is nothing like the sound of a shotgun shell being racked into the chamber behind a door. https://www.soundsnap.com/tags/gun_chamber
> I used to have a barely legal sawed off shotgun but it burned up in a forest fire.


But it doesn't necessarily follow that you HAVE to send Inga out after the bear. You could stay inside and just wait until the bear leaves on its own.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> A shotgun could not have told me that a bear was outside in the yard.
> 
> Although there is nothing like the sound of a shotgun shell being racked into the chamber behind a door. https://www.soundsnap.com/tags/gun_chamber
> I used to have a barely legal sawed off shotgun but it burned up in a forest fire.


the shot gun had nothing to do with the bear. the shot gun was in reference to you saying you wanted to ensure your dog was sound enough to handle a potentially drugged up or other wise general intruder. 

a dog while great for protection still runs a great risk of bodily harm its self when it has to engage a potential threat. if the threat is in your home and is still coming in while the dog is barking and alerting you then a shot gun in my opinion would be a better alternative for both you and your dog and doesn't needs months or years to develop the ability to properly engage.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I meant that a shotgun could not forewarn me to the presence of a bear like a dog can (Water tart, knowing that it might be a bear I had her by the collar when I opened the door.) She could alert to no goodniks too and in fact has already done so. This was a different bark and behavior than her standard 'somethings out of order' bark such as a box blowing across the field, a deer in the meadow, someone delivering a package or a bicyclist peddling down the road. Jumping completely off the floor with one huge airborne bark and wanting eagerly to charge out there. I had not seen this before and I like it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Let's please get back on topic. A few posts were deleted. 

ADMIN


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