# Myths and Truths about 'Dominating' animals



## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Thought that might be interesting to some 

The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan

eace:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Great link!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Should go into the sticky link archives! Thanks for posting that.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Great link, very well done and took me a long time to get through all the sub-articles. LOL I should have printed it out for Jay's BFFs baby sitter, she's always prattling on about Cesar every time she sees Otto behaving like a teenage ninny (which he is) Grr this woman said to me onnce when I had Morgan at drop off 'So is this the good one?' No, she's the old one.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I think it's a pretty poor article...

He begins by stating the definition of dominance..

"In animal behavior, dominance is defined as a *relationship* between individuals that is established through force, aggression and submission in order to establish priority access to all desired resources (food, the opposite sex, preferred resting spots, etc)."

This is obviously wrong, and he should know better. Reality is that force and aggression is not a requirement to establish dominance or a dominant relationship. Simply controlling and withholding the desired resources as the form of priority access is plenty. We establish priority access to all resources with doors, not aggression, force or submission.

Then he says...

"A relationship is not established until one animal consistently defers to another."

This is a much more clear and concise definition of a dominant relationship. He should have just stated this and left the first part out.

In our case this means a dog consistently deferring to a human...

Then he goes straight into several examples of animals definitely -not- consistently deferring to a human and saying it's not an issue involving dominance or establishing a dominant relationship. Contradiction in logic.

Let us examine...

He defines a dominant relationship, and then switches to talking about "rank" which doesn't really apply to his definition. He then shows examples like the fire house puppy. 

He is correct the dog isn't seeking to gain a "rank", but the dog is attempting "priority access to a resource", "attention" is the desired resource in this case.

The dog is definitely not consistently deferring to humans about access to that resource, so by the authors own initial definition he is being dominant, or at minimum the firemen are not being dominant and are not by definition dominant in the relationship.

The cure the author speaks of, only petting when the dog sits, and just standing up if the dog jumps, is in fact, exerting dominance and control of the resource. Doing so is establishing a dominant role in the relationship. Or as the author says...

"one animal consistently defers to another." The pup consistently deferring to the firemen.



I am not familiar with all those episodes of Millan he references, but I am with one of them. "Emily the pit bull".. I find the authors assertion very misleading, if not downright dishonest.

He says "Now lets look at how Cesar Millan would handle a similar case."

He only shows the initial assessment Cesar does to assess the dog. This is implying that this was the method Cesar used to help change the dogs behavior when actually it was only an assessment of the dog's behavior.

Cesar then took the dog, who he assessed as very unsocialized, which led to anxiety and excitement when exposed to other dogs that led to aggression, and socialized it carefully over several weeks at his facility with dozens of other dogs until it learned social skills it lacked.

The author intentionally misrepresented how Milan would handle a similar case. You have to question why he would do this? Does he have an agenda? Or is he just not very bright?


I don't agree with everything Milan does, but I see a lot of contradictions in the logic of the article.




It would seem to me the authors logic is inconsistent, contradictory, and flawed.

He too seeks to form a dominant relationship in the techniques he advises, a dominant relationship by his own definition, "one animal consistently defers to another." 

He just uses some different methods of reaching that relationship. Many of which Millan also uses. He sees withholding of resources until the subordinate animal shows it's deference or appeases through a desired behavior as the better method to establish a dominant relationship.

And withholding of resources or providing treats isn't going to always be more successful in all cases of behavior modification when it comes to phobias etc. and desensitizing animals.

Nor will it always be with extremely self reinforcing behaviors.

In all a poorly done piece the purpose of which is intended to denigrate Cesar Milan more than to be objective and intellectually honest, and honesty and objectivity have been sacrificed to further that agenda.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wow. BTW, he's a "she".


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Me thinks TXRider is a dominator who endorses force training. 

Great link BTW.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Me thinks TXRider is a dominator who endorses force training.
> 
> Great link BTW.


You thinks quite wrongly.

Never alpha rolled a dog in my life. I like my dogs to decide to behave by their own desire.

I just don't like dishonest articles posing as being objective, and absence of logic..


Do you have any significant logical argument for my opinion of the article? 

Or simply irrelevant ad hominem attacks on me personally?


If you care to read a little more, here is a much better article on dominance theory. Though it too is not altogether correct and contradicts itself in places, they are much less significant.

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

The problem most people have is that we all seek a dominant relationship with our dogs, but the word also applies to theory of training methods, as well as a theory of social hierarchy, and too many people cannot seem to keep those different concepts separate.

The author of that article pretends to, but does not.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have read both articles and both Dr Dunbar and Dr. Yin are very respected. 

I would sincerley doubt that we as humans know everything or can agree about all aspects of dog behavior. But I would certainly take their writing and the numerous degrees that follow their names over your disertation. 

You have to admit, you make a lot of comments poking at professionals with what I would consider no professional backing yourself. 

I would be the first to admit I am no pro, I am simply an amatuer dog trainer and long time owner of the breed. I have never alpha rolled a dog either and it would not even be a consideration. I do use corrections but rarely, I use a lot of postives and help the dog work out the right way with out force.

Perhaps you would be willing to provide your credentials. This is not meant to poke I am curious as you seem to impart a degree of knowledge of these things.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think that it takes a degree in anything to point out simple inconsistencies in logic. Esp in a written article. The author DOES change definitions a couple of times and, as TX pointed out, is urging people to be DOMINANT over the dogs, just using a different word. 
Will Cesar's method work for every dog? no. Could Cesar himself do it on more dogs than John Q. Public? of course! 
I think it's a case of people looking at things in pure black and white: you either use positive only or you brow beat the dog into submission. It's simply not that simple. We all want our dogs to defer to us, whether we use the word "alpha" "NILF" or "dominant energy" I believe Cesar's truest quote is what he says most often - "CALM ASSERTIVE ENERGY" and that is why he can do the things that he does. That is why some dogs are nightmares to their owner, someone else takes the leash and it's like an entirely different dog. Cesar EXPECTS the dog to obey and the dog picks up on that energy.
People mock Cesar's finger poke and hiss to distract the dog when it is going into a certain mindset. Is that any different than someone else saying "AHH" or snapping their fingers, jingling keys to distract the dog? 
People seem to forget that the show is TELEVISION. It is edited to be the most dramatic possible. No one is going to set and watch 30 mins of dog training (well, not enough people to justify having a show on TV!) but take days and weeks of work and edit it down to the most intense confrontations between him and the dog?? 
Everyone knows that when you change a dog's behavior there is often an "extinction burst" Even if you are clickering a dog for not barking and ignoring the barking this will happen. It's much more dramatic, though, if you cut out all the annoying bark bark bark and the waiting - just let the public see 30 seconds of the most intense and forceful barking then cut to "OMG such a good dog!!" and treats raining from the sky.

What would John Q. Public think? that by ignoring the dog for 2 minutes you can teach him not to bark. Or that ANY barking can be extinguished by ignoring it. 

Let's face it, the average person is an idiot. They think that dogs "need" to mate at least once. They think that dogs "need" to roam free. They think that a dog "needs" to be mean to be protective. They think you can make a dog protective by beating it.

Is Cesar Milan the best trainer in the world? No. Can the average public get hurt if they tried his methods? Maybe, but that is because they don't understand his methods. The average person could get hurt giving a prong correction to the wrong dog. It's not unheard of for a dog to "go upleash" to take out his frustrations.
Can the average person LEARN from Cesar Milan? Absolutely. If the only thing that they get is "calm assertive energy" then they have made a huge first step. That is why the disclaimer that ALL dogs should be evaluated by a professional. Shoot, that is our first sentence in over 50% of the posts here - have a professional view the dog. Have you been to a trainer? Has an experienced person seen the dog??


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Compulsion is a tool as is a clicker, prey item, treat...
the best tool is praise. They all have there place.
Old school may be old, but worked for a very long time.
New school may be more scientific, but especially with extreme cases on the aggressive end of the spectrum, may not provide the quickest path.

We have the thumbs, and control the resources. It ain't rocket science,
and doesn't require a degree to master how to love your dog and teach it to be
a wonderful companion and ambassador of it's species. 

While all the words in all the books on all the various techniques are interesting, and
may provide insight, the irony is you'll both be better off for going for a long walk.

(You and your dog, if you thought I meant anything else, you really need that walk!)


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Good post Dainerra. If people aren't smart enough to understand that these training shows are, in part, entertainment, that is their problem. Even if Cesar WERE the best trainer in the world, there would still be armchair critics who would assail him. He has a clear disclaimer at the beginning of each show. He stresses exercise, something the average family pet is sadly lacking. I can think of many dogs in my neighborhood who go around the block (literally) and that is it. (It's basically a potty break.) You take from any trainer (and I include the ones I have gone to) what you can use and discard the rest. And you still learn.

__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I like the link. New methods don't always provide the fast fix but in my experience they provide a better, more enduring fix. They also leave me happier and in a better, in my opinion, relationship with my dog.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I've seen the article before, and like txrider says, it smacks of something more than just an objective look at training or rehab techniques that produce results. Cesar is wrong wrong wrong.. if we don't believe it, we can just look at the simple fact that by definition, a dog cannot be dominant over an inanimate object (and that is absolutely what Cesar was saying in the few seconds of video we saw).

Experts are certainly entitled to their opinion, but I have to wonder what the effects of their dissertations are. Have they convinced anyone who is familiar with Cesar that he is bad for dogs, or doesn't know about dog rehab and so will be ineffective? It seems she is just preaching to the choir of positive trainers, picking on this guy who happens to have become extremely successful and IMO is FAR from harmful to dogs.

How would an average Joe Blow look upon professional, degreed behavior experts who's opinions about Cesar's methods fly in the face of the results he gets? I'd say the general public places more importance on results than theories (and with Cesar, we can only see him getting good results) and this cannot help the public's opinion of highly educated dog behavior experts.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Dainerra said:


> I believe Cesar's truest quote is what he says most often - "CALM ASSERTIVE ENERGY" and that is why he can do the things that he does. That is why some dogs are nightmares to their owner, someone else takes the leash and it's like an entirely different dog. Cesar EXPECTS the dog to obey and the dog picks up on that energy.
> People mock Cesar's finger poke and hiss to distract the dog when it is going into a certain mindset. Is that any different than someone else saying "AHH" or snapping their fingers, jingling keys to distract the dog?
> 
> 
> ...


 
This is very well said, and I do agree with you on this. I think that when I see what appears to be inconsistent use of words I often assume perhaps they meant not to be inconsistent but just chose different wording attempting to mean the same thing. Reading between the lines I guess.

Those trademarks of Cesar's are the things I like about him. I often read posts by folk that are really having problems with the dog doing certain things and then you get others chiming in with the same thing and I scratch my head and think I have had 5 GSD's of my own and fostered a few and I cannot figure out why I have never had problems like that. I figured maybe I was lucky but then I have to think that I got lucky with the first one and had a chance to develope a leadership style that puts the dog in a secure relationship where I am the leader and the dog ain't. No force, no alpha rolls just Calm Assertive Energy. I have alwasy liked that phrase. I have neer had a problem with the poke either, I actaully use a tap on top of the head to do the same thing.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it ate my post when I hit backspace!! OMG.... rant over, so here it goes again.

I think that 90%, if not more, of "training issues" fall into 3 simple categories:

1) spoiled dog/permissive owner. This includes the people who thought it was cute when Fluffy growled at them and raced over them to get to the door, but now that Fluffy is 80lbs and knocking Granny down the stairs to be first one outside it's not so cute any more. Also those who have just never trained their dog to do anything, just letting him do as he please. I would also include those who, instead of giving commands (SIT), simper and cajole their dogs to do something. 

2) lack of socialization. self-explanatory

3) lack of exercise. even those who know that Sparky needs to run to burn off some steam often don't give him the mental exercise. 

Yes, Cesar is an entertainment show. The warnings are there for the same reason warnings are on any product. Some moron didn't realize that he couldn't fly just because he was wearing his Superman PJs. Now there are actually warnings that say "Superman PJs can't make you fly"

It's not about Cesar's methods vs clicker. Or Clicker vs compulsion. Or US vs THEM. It's about each person finding a method that they are comfortable with and that works for their dog. For many people, that involves picking and choosing a piece of this and that. Bob might not be able to clicker train Sparky, but it works fine when he tries it with Fluffy. Sue, however, might take Sparky and have him clicker trained in an afternoon.
Each dog/person team is different. They have a different connection/dynamic/what ever word you choose. Cesar says "be dominant over your dog" Someone else says "your dog needs to defer to you" but in reality, both people are talking about the exact same result.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

CM has a lot of good premises. Do not treat your dog like kids for one and even kids need rules & discipline. Keep in mind that the dogs he works with need to be dominated. Domination sounds like a negative word but from my own experience with Paige she is a much happier DOG when I am the boss. That is all he is trying to say-be the pack leader. He has brought more attention to dog training than any other person in history.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> I have read both articles and both Dr Dunbar and Dr. Yin are very respected.
> 
> I would sincerley doubt that we as humans know everything or can agree about all aspects of dog behavior. But I would certainly take their writing and the numerous degrees that follow their names over your disertation.
> 
> ...


More ad hominem, addressing the messenger instead of addressing the message.

I do not mean to poke at the person, just the article and the argument put forth. What titles they put by their name has no bearing in it, the people she says have discredited theories also have Phd titles.

All I ask is that the person apply the same objective logic to themselves as they do to others. I evaluate what they have to say on it's own merit as I was taught to be a critical thinker.


Dr Yin in her articles seems to believe that only a dominant relationship achieved through force and aggression is being dominant. She does not seem to perceive the force she tells owners to apply as being forceful to achieve a dominant role in the relationship.

There are logical issue I find with this and I am compelled to question them.

Answer me a few simple questions, the ones I asked myself when reading the OP's linked article.

A dominant relationship is defined as one in which priority access to all resources is achieved by one being in the relationship, and a dominant relationship is established when one being consistently defers to the other.

How that relationship is achieved, through force, aggression, genetic programming, act of god, whatever, is irrelevant to it's existence. A dominant relationship which is achieved by any means is still a dominant relationship, it is not confined to one achieved through force or aggression exclusively as Yin states.

Can you agree with this statement?

She states that the clip in the video with Emily the pit bull that what you see is how Cesar handles the dog's issues. I quote "Now lets look at how Cesar Millan would handle a similar case."

If you watch the episode, you see in reality how he handles the issue is desensitizing and socializing the dog over several weeks time in a controlled environment with many well conditioned non reactive dogs.

Do you find her total omission of this fact as an accurate and honest representation of how Cesar handled the problem?


In her definition of dominance she says dogs do not have set rank hierarchy.. "Consequently a rigid hierarchy and high rank would not confer a huge advantage compared to, say high rank in a group of bulls or chickens."

She then asks for some reason whether the firehouse puppy is trying to assert a higher rank, implying that this is Cesar's point of view, when Cesar does not assert the dog was attempting to "assert higher rank". He simply states the dog is displaying dominant behavior.

Or is it that according to Yin's definition and terms, the dog is using force, jumping and pawing and pressing etc., to gain priority access, access on his terms, to a resource, namely attention. Not deferring to the firemen for access to that resource?

Is the dog not displaying a dominant behavior by her own defintition?

Is her implication the Cesar is saying the dog is "asserting a higher rank" an honest observation?

And those are only a few questions I ask myself in reading that article.


I find this article a better written one...

Handling Dominance Aggression in Dogs : AskDrYin.com

Though she does in fact advise the owner to use physical force to impose a dominant relationship. It is simply not physical force used to confront a behavior and physically force a submissive posture, which seems to be her real objection.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anja1Blue said:


> Even if Cesar WERE the best trainer in the world, there would still be armchair critics who would assail him. He has a clear disclaimer at the beginning of each show. He stresses exercise, something the average family pet is sadly lacking.


But these people are not simply "armchair critics". These are people who are very skilled and knowledgeable in animal behavior and the science of learning. And stressing exercise is not a revolutionary new idea that Cesar dreamed up, EVERY decent trainer is going to tell you the exactly the same thing, and most of them are going to understand the difference between "calm submissive" and "shut down". If you don't care if your dog has stopped fighting against you and has simply given up, or is happily and enthusiastically working with you, then I suppose it doesn't matter. :shrug:


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I think when it comes to Millan a lot of the trouble is a difference in terminology.

When I see Cesar force a dog into a submissive posture, it is usually done as a consequence of a behavior the dog has exhibited.

For example a dog using aggression. The dog uses the aggression to accomplish something which if successful self reinforces that behavior and makes it more likely to be repeated.

Milan's goal is not allowing the aggression to be successful, and imposing a consequence for that behavior that will not allow the behavior to be successful, and so not allowing it to be reinforced, and so less likely to be repeated.

He doesn't just go around rolling dogs for fun, and uses other methods when possible.

He only seems to use that physical method when confronted with aggression and only uses it to reinforce that the aggression will not be successful.

Is it the best way? For him maybe, but not for most dog owners without his experience and skill set.

It seems to me that people like Dr Yin, instruct people to avoid the confrontation and avoid any situation that would trigger the aggression, and try to curb the behavior by other less confrontational and less physical means.

Methods taught by Dr Yin and people like Dr Dunbar are both far more safe for the average owner to use and not be bitten, and far easier to do with successful results and less chance of unintended consequence.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Dainerra said:


> I think that 90%, if not more, of "training issues" fall into 3 simple categories:
> 
> 1) spoiled dog/permissive owner. This includes the people who thought it was cute when Fluffy growled at them and raced over them to get to the door, but now that Fluffy is 80lbs and knocking Granny down the stairs to be first one outside it's not so cute any more. Also those who have just never trained their dog to do anything, just letting him do as he please. I would also include those who, instead of giving commands (SIT), simper and cajole their dogs to do something.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, and any decent trainer will tell you the same thing, Cesar does not get special credit for pointing out the obvious. 



> Each dog/person team is different. They have a different connection/dynamic/what ever word you choose. Cesar says "be dominant over your dog" Someone else says "your dog needs to defer to you" but in reality, both people are talking about the exact same result.


I don't think they are talking about the same thing. Cesar exerts his dominance over the dog. And yes, he's very good at that, but that approach can be very dangerous for people who do not have his skill. My dogs defer to me, but I do not exert dominance over them. That might sound like splitting hairs, but there's a huge difference - I encourage my dogs to offer deference behaviors in order to get what they want, which builds a habit of deferring to me. Practice deference and you become deferent. Dogs do not physically force other dogs to defer to them, they do not alpha roll each other, the submissive dog rolls over voluntarily, to show his deference and acceptance of the other dog as his leader.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

TxRider said:


> It seems to me that people like Dr Yin, instruct people to avoid the confrontation and avoid any situation that would trigger the aggression, and try to curb the behavior by other less confrontational and less physical means.
> 
> Methods taught by Dr Yin and people like Dr Dunbar are both far more safe for the average owner to use and not be bitten, and far easier to do with successful results and less chance of unintended consequence.


Hey, we agree on something! :rofl:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Here are some vids ( I hope)....

Cesar

Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | Entertainment Videos | Comcast.net




Yin






Studying the subject..
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/article.php?id=1548


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Samba said:


> Here are some vids ( I hope)....
> 
> Cesar
> 
> ...


Two different dogs with two different issues. One fearful and aggressive to other dogs when on leash, the other non fear based aggression, the dog would not run away in fear like Cody would if off leash. Apples and oranges comparison.

And yanking a dogs face up with that gentle leader like she does is also force, and as she says negative reinforcement, and could also result in a dog reacting with aggression. It just doesn't with this dog.

She says she uses it with a goal of getting the dog under some control, so positive reinforcement can be used. Millan uses it with the same goal.



> Studying the subject..
> If You’re Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be, Too, Says Veterinary Study at University of Pennsylvania: University of Pennsylvania


Actually an article about a study of the subject, here's another view of that study from someone who read the study...

That Dogma Won’t Hunt Smartdogs' Weblog

I would read the study myself, but I'm not going to pay a subscription to read it, so I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the review.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Exactly, you will find dogs can be taught in a variety of ways. 

Dr. Yin is not without controversy either!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I thought Dr. Yin was a regular nag with the head collar. And, Cesar, when you put two dogs up close like that with dominance aggression and then "bite" one in the hiney...look out for the reflexive aggression. Ouch!


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm with TXRider on this one. The first thing I thought while reading the article is that the definition of dominance is way off (from mine). So many people associate dominance with aggression, intimidation, anger, meanness... And it's not. 

I find my views on dominance and dog's social status are fairly in line with Patricia McConnell. In her book, _The Other End of the Leash_, she goes into detail about dogs' social status and relationships to each other. It's wonderful!

I've had my share of CM discussions, so I won't go into that here. I'll just say that he taught me a LOT about dogs and his overall philosophy is one of the main reasons that my dogs are as well-behaved, happy and balanced as they are. 

Why Dr. Yin has to go after CM, I don't know. She could have written this without any talk of Cesar Milan, but it seems the popular thing for trainers to do is go after him. Meh. If they have some good information to share, then let them share it. Is it necessary to put CM down to get attention? What good does it do to list "what others are saying about Cesar"? It makes Yin sound jealous or something. You never hear Cesar putting down other trainers or dog professionals. 

Bottom line, I started to read this article, but the focus on CM turns me completely off, especially since it portrays him as something that he isn't.


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## Topdog (Feb 12, 2010)

TxRider said:


> It seems to me that people like Dr Yin, instruct people to avoid the confrontation and avoid any situation that would trigger the aggression, and try to curb the behavior by other less confrontational and less physical means.


 I think you hit the nail right on the head there. For the average owner to try CM's methods of Dominating is stupid, however pretty much ALL good dog owners will understand that Dogs need to be exercised more then they are and that there is nothing wrong with not agreeing with some of your dogs activities and letting them know that. 
However alot of the cases CM takes on are Extreme and in many cases the owners have tried other trainers. (CM is not easy to get in your home anymore) and usually not the first place to go for help. Owners need to be aware of what the dog is doing and why he needs to be dominated and at what time, is simply to much for the average dog owner (and in my exp alot of dog trainers as well). Over the years I have seen trainers alpha roll a dog when really the dog was just barking and afraid of the situation. And I've seen MANY owners roll dogs and it goes badly for them, becuase they don't know what they are doing. 
For me its simple, I can't do what alot of trainers do and "avoid" confrontation with my dog, just try to misdirect his attention and reward when they look away, Becuase I need to trust my dogs, and In MY eyes and experience if the dog doesn't see you as the person in charge they wont listen to you. I know it doesnt for everyone but for me the pack mentality makes sense. 

I don't always believe in what Ceaser says. But I promise to you that their are more happy dogs and dog owners in this world becuase of him!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> that approach can be very dangerous for people who do not have his skill. My dogs defer to me, but I do not exert dominance over them. That might sound like splitting hairs, but there's a huge difference - I encourage my dogs to offer deference behaviors in order to get what they want, which builds a habit of deferring to me. Practice deference and you become deferent. Dogs do not physically force other dogs to defer to them, they do not alpha roll each other, the submissive dog rolls over voluntarily, to show his deference and acceptance of the other dog as his leader.


What the heck does "deference" mean between a human and an animal? 

Does that mean you give your dog a choice when you tell them to do something? I.E. "SIT" but only do it if you feel you want to sit?

BTW - Dogs DO force another dog to do what they want - ever see one dog take a toy/bone from another?

Don't you think that this behavior could also be dangerous for certain dogs and certain owners? 

Just for the heck of it - WHAT would you do if your dog was on the couch and you wanted to sit and you asked the dog to get off and he didn't? In fact he growled when you tried to make him get off? What would you do?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Topdog said:


> I think you hit the nail right on the head there. For the average owner to try CM's methods of Dominating is stupid, however pretty much ALL good dog owners will understand that Dogs need to be exercised more then they are and that there is nothing wrong with not agreeing with some of your dogs activities and letting them know that.
> However alot of the cases CM takes on are Extreme and in many cases the owners have tried other trainers. (CM is not easy to get in your home anymore) and usually not the first place to go for help. Owners need to be aware of what the dog is doing and why he needs to be dominated and at what time, is simply to much for the average dog owner (and in my exp alot of dog trainers as well). Over the years I have seen trainers alpha roll a dog when really the dog was just barking and afraid of the situation. And I've seen MANY owners roll dogs and it goes badly for them, becuase they don't know what they are doing.
> For me its simple, I can't do what alot of trainers do and "avoid" confrontation with my dog, just try to misdirect his attention and reward when they look away, Becuase I need to trust my dogs, and In MY eyes and experience if the dog doesn't see you as the person in charge they wont listen to you. I know it doesnt for everyone but for me the pack mentality makes sense.
> 
> I don't always believe in what Ceaser says. But I promise to you that their are more happy dogs and dog owners in this world becuase of him!


Well said!!!!!!!!!!


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I think I was struck most by what Ian Dunbar said about Millan.

"He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well ... different,"... "Heaven forbid if anyone else tries his methods, because a lot of what he does is not without danger."

And....

"Though Millan gets results, most people don't have Millan's strength or skill, and even fewer keep dozens of dogs. "I teach methods that a supervised 4-year-old can use,"

And he is right, and that is the difference, I can read dogs better than most, but I know I do not posses the ability to read them as fast and do not have the timing Millan has to use much of what he does. I'm better off using Dunbar's methods more and I do just that.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

*"He has nice dog skills, but from a scientific point of view, what he says is, well ... different,"*...

Yes, Cesar has made up his own terminology and called it dog psychology.

But his timing and his understanding are innate and admirable.

Sort of proves the point that a professional *cynologist* will not have
a degree, since there is no degree offered anywhere on the subject,
in fact you'll have to use wiki to find that word, you are left to draw your
own definition of professional when it comes to dog training.

But the scientists are too right that he takes more risks and using his techniques is more dangerous. Most of the red zone head cases he has effectively rehabilitated would have been euthanized by the scientists.

So which method is more humane? As the bell curve of aggression reaches the right bottom of the bell where dog will kill sheep, climb the leash and hammer the handler, the professors defer to the needle because they don't understand compulsion, dominance and aggression quite as much as the diploma on the wall might lead one to think, or don't have the patience and courage necessary to fight the battle, and save the animal from it's wild side. Too civilized for the risk. A clicker isn't going to cure a snarling spitting beast all the time. Fear wins whether it's the dog's or the handler's until someone overcomes the fear.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> Why Dr. Yin has to go after CM, I don't know. She could have written this without any talk of Cesar Milan, but it seems the popular thing for trainers to do is go after him. Meh. If they have some good information to share, then let them share it. Is it necessary to put CM down to get attention? What good does it do to list "what others are saying about Cesar"? It makes Yin sound jealous or something. You never hear Cesar putting down other trainers or dog professionals.
> 
> Bottom line, I started to read this article, but the focus on CM turns me completely off, especially since it portrays him as something that he isn't.


I agree with this. It's really annoying to me when what is supposed to be a respected Dr. has to go off on a rant about a particular person rather than focus specifically on the method. She did it for one reason...because bashing CM would get her article more attention. 

And personally, after watching the video with the dog on the gentle leader, I'm not impressed. Her gentle leader use really isn't much different than CM using his collar-thingy. The dog gets punished for doing a particular behavior (lunging forward gets his head yanked down and to the side). I'm also not overly impressed with her dog handling skills (not that I could do better). To me, at the end during the dog meeting on a leash she was just chasing after the dog and jumping in front of it to make it look like he was following her and to force the dog into paying attention.

Different training methods work for different people. CM never says "do this at home." In fact, he does the exact opposite: "DON'T try this at home...consult a professional." So if an owner is taking extreme things from CM's show and trying it at home....then that's their own fault. 

I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but I don't agree 100% with ANY trainer.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Someone as charismatic and visible (and successful) as Cesar will always attract jealousy and controversy. Not that he cares I am sure, and he doesn't need to fight fire with fire. Ian Dunbar had his critics in his time, so did Barbara Woodhouse (before the time of many on this forum I realize) and anyone else who has ever gone public with their theories about training. I find that I am amused by people I know who can't stand CM and continually tear into him, yet continue to watch his programs on a regular basis. Why bother? Just go on to something - or someone - else.

As for Dr. Yin, I'll pass, for the same reasons stated elsewhere. If you have to stoop to slamming another person to get your point across I'm not interested in what you have to say. It usually means you have nothing new to add, as it's easier by far to be a critic than it is to come up with a solution. Cesar isn't always right - but he isn't always wrong either.

___________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 - waiting at the Bridge


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't think Dr. Yin was particularly impressive with her handling skills.

I also don't think Cesar's set up for the handling of the dominance was particularly impressive either. Sure he won a fight with the dog. I have seen this done more than once, and I have not noted its particular effectiveness especially in dealing with dominance aggression. 

The large dog in the video exhibited dominance behaviors. Redirected aggression was provoked and a battle ensued. The dog's brain was clearly on the BC when the melee ensued. There is every chance that BC is in greater danger rather than less due to association. The handing over of the leash to someone else after this interaction is likely to have no transfer of positive training result.


I also think that some behaviorists are upset with Milan. This probably results in some attacks that are less than professional. But, this may come from a concern for the welfare of dogs. The management of many problems was moving out of the physicality arena and the popularity of Milan is sensed as a possible set back in the handling of dogs by the general population. 

There is a long history of physicality in dog handling regarding working with aggression. While I am sure Cesar is often successful in his management of his dogs, to put this out for public consumption might reinforce the people with a propensity to physical force.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Samba said:


> The large dog in the video exhibited dominance behaviors. Redirected aggression was provoked and a battle ensued. The dog's brain was clearly on the BC when the melee ensued. There is every chance that BC is in greater danger rather than less due to association. The handing over of the leash to someone else after this interaction is likely to have no transfer of positive training result.


This is a very valid criticism - does it really matter who says it, how they say it, or why? They're pointing out a fact. What he did in that video subdued the dog. But that's really ALL it did, and there is the very real danger (again, disclaimers aside) that many people watching it do not understand that this isn't something that they should EVER do on their own, and that perhaps it's not the best approach for dealing with the situation at all, even if they CAN find a professional willing to work with them in this way - that in fact it may make things even worse than they were before. Even with his excellent timing, he got bitten several times, someone who does not have good timing and skill and is not physically strong enough to subdue a dog in that way would be in serious danger of being severely injured. And this is considered good entertainment by many and that anyone who criticizes him must be jealous or is just nitpicking? :thinking:



> I also think that some behaviorists are upset with Milan. This probably results in some attacks that are less than professional. But, this may come from a concern for the welfare of dogs. *The management of many problems was moving out of the physicality arena and the popularity of Milan is sensed as a possible set back in the handling of dogs by the general population.*


I think it does come from a concern for the welfare of dogs. And also for dog owners who may not understand how they may have created or exacerbated the problems they're having, or how raise a dog to not ever develop those kinds of problems in the first place. That's one area where I think Victoria Stillwell does a very good job - she tells the owners exactly how they screwed up, and what to do about it. It's a valid concern that people who know nothing about dog training or behavior other than what they saw Cesar do on TV could get themselves in real trouble, which makes the backlash against him by veterinary behaviorists and others logical, reasonable, and prudent. Judging by all the comments we've had here on the board about seeing some yahoo in PetSmart imitating Cesar's techniques shows that there are a lot of people who DO think they know something about dog training from watching a TV show. 



> There is a long history of physicality in dog handling regarding working with aggression. *While I am sure Cesar is often successful in his management of his dogs, to put this out for public consumption might reinforce the people with a propensity to physical force.*


Exactly. Why use physical force if you can elicit willing cooperation from your dog? But people watching Cesar's TV show aren't learning anything about how to get willing cooperation from their dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

You say that Milan has gotten bitten several times and that makes him a bad trainer? I would suspect that every professional trainer has probably been bitten in their work (unless they just refuse to attempt to handle aggressive dogs at all) as a few do in my area.)

You also seem to say that Cesar may get away with his methods because he is strong and knows dogs very well and that his methods may be bad for others to use. 

Wouldn't you agree that any method may be bad for a regular person to use - i.e. purely positive reinforcement may not work if the person doesn't know WHEN to give the treat, for example.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Also, you think Stilwell does a good job - have you really watched her show? Some folks seem to think Milan edits his show too much - I would love to see the uneditted Stilwell show! Also, I don't believe that we have ever really seen Victoria handle a truly aggressive dog (i.e. a "red zone") dog, have we?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Simple question for anyone/everyone: Would you rather your dog complies because you are capable of physically forcing him to submit, and your dog knows this (a la Cesar), or willingly complies due to a relationship of trust and respect developed by fair and consistent leadership coupled with motivational training (see videos by Ivan Balabanov [Jason just posted an excellent one in the thread about ball drive], and Michael Ellis)? Of course, this assumes that you ARE strong enough to physically force your dog to submit, which many people are not. 

I submit that MOST people do have that choice, or at least they did at one time.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is a very valid criticism - does it really matter who says it, how they say it, or why? They're pointing out a fact. What he did in that video subdued the dog. But that's really ALL it did, and there is the very real danger (again, disclaimers aside) that many people watching it do not understand that this isn't something that they should EVER do on their own, and that perhaps it's not the best approach for dealing with the situation at all, even if they CAN find a professional willing to work with them in this way - that in fact it may make things even worse than they were before. Even with his excellent timing, he got bitten several times, someone who does not have good timing and skill and is not physically strong enough to subdue a dog in that way would be in serious danger of being severely injured. And this is considered good entertainment by many and that anyone who criticizes him must be jealous or is just nitpicking? :thinking:


Also keep in mind, these clips are usually just the initial session with Millan, and they ignore the rest of what he does with the dog and with the owner to work on the issue, and what he tells the owners to do to keep improving the dogs behavior.





> I think it does come from a concern for the welfare of dogs. And also for dog owners who may not understand how they may have created or exacerbated the problems they're having, or how raise a dog to not ever develop those kinds of problems in the first place. That's one area where I think Victoria Stillwell does a very good job - she tells the owners exactly how they screwed up, and what to do about it. It's a valid concern that people who know nothing about dog training or behavior other than what they saw Cesar do on TV could get themselves in real trouble, which makes the backlash against him by veterinary behaviorists and others logical, reasonable, and prudent. Judging by all the comments we've had here on the board about seeing some yahoo in PetSmart imitating Cesar's techniques shows that there are a lot of people who DO think they know something about dog training from watching a TV show.


I believe every episode of Dog whisperer I have seen he also tells the owners what they did to create the behavior, and what they need to do about it in the future.

And yes there will be idiots misusing information from any TV dog show.




> Exactly. Why use physical force if you can elicit willing cooperation from your dog? But people watching Cesar's TV show aren't learning anything about how to get willing cooperation from their dog.


Baloney. The number of dogs that get aggressive and physical on Cesars show are a minority. The majority of cases he does elicit willing cooperation.

The only time you see this violet physical confrontation is in the case of a dog getting aggressive, which isn't the norm for the show that I have seen.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Simple question for anyone/everyone: Would you rather your dog complies because you are capable of physically forcing him to submit, and your dog knows this (a la Cesar), or willingly complies due to a relationship of trust and respect developed by fair and consistent leadership coupled with motivational training (see videos by Ivan Balabanov [Jason just posted an excellent one in the thread about ball drive], and Michael Ellis)? Of course, this assumes that you ARE strong enough to physically force your dog to submit, which many people are not. I submit that MOST people do have that choice, or at least they did at one time.


You seem to be forgetting the point of training your dog in the first place! I train my dog (somehow!) to obey my command (voice and/or signal) precisely so I do not have to use physical force to make him/her obey. I understand that as a young puppy for example I can chase him and get him if he refuses to come when called. However very clearly once the dog is a few months old there is no way in the world that I can chase my GSD and physically catch him if he won't come. BUT, if i train him to obey, then he will continue to obey me even if physically I cannot MAKE him come.

I really don't care WHY my dog obeys me - (i.e. what is going on in his brain), just that he does when I tell him to.

I do not want my dog deciding himself if he is going to obey or not depending on his motivation at that moment.

Think about it - are you really serious that it is the relationship of "trust and respect developed by fair and consistent leadership coupled with motivational training" that is going to convince the dog to obey a "come", "sit", "down", etc. command that you give?


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Simple question for anyone/everyone: Would you rather your dog complies because you are capable of physically forcing him to submit, and your dog knows this (a la Cesar), or willingly complies due to a relationship of trust and respect developed by fair and consistent leadership coupled with motivational training (see videos by Ivan Balabanov [Jason just posted an excellent one in the thread about ball drive], and Michael Ellis)? Of course, this assumes that you ARE strong enough to physically force your dog to submit, which many people are not.
> 
> I submit that MOST people do have that choice, or at least they did at one time.


First off, Cesar doesn't get dogs to obey because he is capable physically forcing them to submit. Physical force is used when a dog is aggressive and out of control, and only as much as is needed to control the dog. Cesar prefers other methods.

If my dog actively tried to bite me, I might well use physical force at that time as well. If my dog was attempting to bite, say a child, I definately would use physical force.

Short of that kind of extreme situation, I don't use physical force on my dogs at all, and from what I can see neither does Millan.

If I were to rescue a dog, and it decided it wanted to drag me to another dog and kill it on our first walk, and climbed the leash at me when I pulled him back or touched him.. You would likely see the same thing you see in Millan video clips, me holding the leash out, keeping it taught, and waiting the dog out. Not much else one can do in that situation.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

codmaster;
Think about it - are you really serious that it is the relationship of "trust and respect developed by fair and consistent leadership coupled with motivational training" that is going to convince the dog to obey a "come" said:


> Yes, absolutely, I do believe this and am seeing it. I have been working on recall with Benny. Yesterday we were in a fenced school yard and he was playing with another dog aabout 50 yards away. I called him and stopped playing, came right to me. I gave him a treat, a lot of praise and sent hom off to play. With consistent training, reward based motivation he is obeying me because the relationship we are building, which is still very much a work in progress.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Wow thanks! That is a cool link! I am def. going to check out her site, as she might have a lot to offer me.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

dOg said:


> Compulsion is a tool as is a clicker, prey item, treat...
> the best tool is praise.


Why do you say praise is the best tool? Certainly not a higher degree of effectiveness. :thinking:





dOg said:


> Sort of proves the point that a professional *cynologist* will not have
> a degree, since there is no degree offered anywhere on the subject,
> in fact you'll have to use wiki to find that word, you are left to draw your
> own definition of professional when it comes to dog training.


There are a number of degrees and certifications which are offered in the field of animal behavior. These are not just classroom degrees but require many hours of working with animals as well. I do not see why someone who has seen dogs on a farm growing up or whatever is a better choice for dealing with animals' behavior than someone who has done years of study and field work on the subject?



dOg said:


> But the scientists are too right that he takes more risks and using his techniques is more dangerous. Most of the red zone head cases he has effectively rehabilitated would have been euthanized by the scientists.
> 
> So which method is more humane? As the bell curve of aggression reaches the right bottom of the bell where dog will kill sheep, climb the leash and hammer the handler, the professors defer to the needle because they don't understand compulsion, dominance and aggression quite as much as the diploma on the wall might lead one to think, or don't have the patience and courage necessary to fight the battle, and save the animal from it's wild side.


I think that is both unfair and untrue. I know of multiple behaviorists who work with dogs with all sorts of aggression issues including what Cesar calls "red zone" without using any "dominance" or physical corrections etc... Just because some veterinarians might recommend euthanasia for aggression does not mean aggression issues can only be dealt with by Cesar or similar methods.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

They should try to read a great book titled "Bringing Light to Shadow"

This thread has evolved into the compulsion camp vs the balanced camp.

I would not say I never use compulsion as after a fashion all training is a form of compulsion becasuu we are attemting to asert our will over the dog. I guess the line is drawn by the degree of force used when compelling an aminmal to behave in a certain manner. I would prefer to compel the dog to make the right choice without relying on pain and domineering tactics. I call that balance in training.

And TX Rider you never did answer my question about your credentials.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> They should try to read a great book titled "Bringing Light to Shadow"


Just wanted to add a thumbsup for this book. :thumbup:


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Chicagocanine said:


> I think that is both unfair and untrue. I know of multiple behaviorists who work with dogs with all sorts of aggression issues including what Cesar calls "red zone" without using any "dominance" or physical corrections etc... Just because some veterinarians might recommend euthanasia for aggression does not mean aggression issues can only be dealt with by Cesar or similar methods.


Agree! 

I have two issues with Milan and his methods:
1. A lot of aggression, I would even say MOST aggression, is IMO rooted in fear not dominance. 
2. No matter what he says about "don't try this at home" he has a show and many books and people DO look at his products as a kind of "how to" manual. 

I say these things because I deal with a lot of aggressive dogs and I deal with a lot of people - both as a trainer trying to help people keep their dogs and as a rescuer dealing with dogs that are given up. I see dogs over and over again diagnosed by their owners as "dominant" that are actually afraid and I see owners attempting their interpretation of Milan's techniques - A LOT. It's not a good combo.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Debbieg said:


> Yes, absolutely, I do believe this and am seeing it. I have been working on recall with Benny. Yesterday we were in a fenced school yard and he was playing with another dog aabout 50 yards away. I called him and stopped playing, came right to me. I gave him a treat, a lot of praise and sent hom off to play. With consistent training, reward based motivation he is obeying me because the relationship we are building, which is still very much a work in progress.



Yes it's not rocket science. It even works on us humans.

Simple example. We are conditioned to answer a ringing phone. The more positive the experience is the more we hop to answer the ringing phone, we will stop doing whatever we are focused on to go answer it without thinking about it. Conditioning through positive reinforcement.

But if when we answer, it is repeatedly a negative experience, bill collectors, telemarketers, etc. and never a positive experience, we will stop answering the ringing phone and cringe when it rings and avoid it. Conditioning through positive punishment.

Similar to a dog if coming to you when called becomes a negative thing, like calling the dog to you to punish it. Making recall always a positive experience works, and with enough repetition the dog will become conditioned to just do it without thinking about it.

The issue about forcing a dog to perform a behavior out of fear, is not something I see Millan do. That would be negative reinforcement. He uses the other three of the four quadrants of operant conditioning.



Compelling a dog to perform out of fear would me more like hitting my dog or pinching it's ear until it sat when I told it to to keep from getting hit, or taking something unpleasant away when the dog performs a behavior. This is negative reinforcement.

As opposed to say, hitting a dog when I catch it with it's head in the trash can, to keep it from getting the trash, which is adding something unpleasant as a consequence to a behavior, to lessen the frequency of it being performed. This is positive punishment.


Seems to me what Cesar does is simply provide negative punishment by not allowing the aggressive behavior to succeed, or more clearly he is removing the positive reinforcement of aggression by calmly waiting out the dogs aggression and not backing off. This is negative punishment. 

Then he provides positive punishment by putting the dog in a submissive posture and imposing an unpleasant consequence to the aggressive behavior in a way that doesn't physically harm the dog, but the dog still experiences it as an unpleasant consequence for it's aggression. This is positive punishment.

He then provides positive reinforcement when the correct behavior is displayed with praise, scent, food and various other means.

I do not see him use negative reinforcement, but it seems to be often claimed to be his primary method.

But I do agree, better for those at home to avoid provoking the aggression and work around it with methods that are harder to screw up using.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

pupresq said:


> Agree!
> 
> I have two issues with Milan and his methods:
> 1. A lot of aggression, I would even say MOST aggression, is IMO rooted in fear not dominance.
> ...


Do you think that is why the dog is behaving that way in the first place? if not, why would a dog exhibit that behavior in the first place? i.e. were they born fearful?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

AH... there is the catch though. It is their interpretation of Cesar's techniques. 
The biggest problem is that they don't have Cesar's energy. He is always calm and collected. He never shows anger, aggression, or fear. (Also why people are so drawn to him.)
Average pet owner can almost never do that. If they have the mind set that the dog is dominant, then they will go into any training with a confrontational attitude. A fearful dog will get even more fearful. An aggressive dog even more aggressive. It really wouldn't matter WHAT techniques they used, just the fact that they were trying it on their own. 

With a trainer, there is a 3rd party there to not only tell them what to do, but to channel their emotions. THAT is the important difference, not what techniques they are using.

ETA: also, when a professional is there, the owner is also in a calmer state. There is someone else IN CHARGE, so the pressure is off of them. Any trainer knows that the person willing to learn is a good student. The owner who comes in believing that they know more than the teacher is going to be impossible to handle in class. You can tell by their energy and body language! All of that relates to how the dogs respond to the training. Person 1 is most likely going to have a dog that catches on quickly. Person 2 is going to have the opposite in most cases. Then they will turn around and blame the trainer, when in fact, it is their own negative energy that is causing the problem.

In my opinion, Cesar's methods will work on a fearful dog as well. He constantly states that the "Calm Assertive Energy" is the key. The majority of fearful dogs instantly become more relaxed in the presence of that. Why? Because they instantly know "Hey! Here is someone who I can trust to take care of things"


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I've never watched Caesar's show, only seen bits and pieces and the segment he did on Oprah a few years ago. I've read a lot of negative reviews on his methods though, and yesterday, my brother in law gave me a prime example. The DH was bragging on our pup saying how his brother better watch out when she gets big. His brother then stated that he knew how to handle an aggressive dog because he's watched the Dog Whisperer and saw an episode that showed where if a dog lunged at you, you just grabbed them by the throat and moved forward being assertive and just keep repeating and showing you weren't goin to back down until the dog stopped trying to attack you. I told him good luck trying to get his hand back or face for that matter, in normal condition. I don't know if this is what he actually saw on the show or what type of dog Caesar may have been practicing this technique on, but I thought it was absolutely NUTS!!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Do you think that is why the dog is behaving that way in the first place? if not, why would a dog exhibit that behavior in the first place? i.e. were they born fearful?


I think it depends on the dog. Sometimes it's a weak nerved dog, sometimes it's a dog that was undersocialized but not abused, sometimes it's a dog that was not out and out abused but was very poorly handled, and sometimes it's a dog that has been severely abused. How a dog reacts to its treatment depends a lot on genetics and individual temperament. Fear comes from a lot of different sources.

My biggest issue isn't so much with Milan himself but with his effect. Whether or not he says people shouldn't try his techniques at home and even if he talks about his calm energy, the bottom line is that his show and books have led to a lot of people incorrectly diagnosing their dogs as dominant, and attempting to implement his techniques at home to very negative effect. And to be clear - I'm not blaming all alpha-rollers on Milan, I'm talking specifically about people who proudly tell me they watch his show/read his books and have done x,y, and z with their dogs, and then I've got to figure out how to deal with a dog who is now seriously freaked out.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

pupresq said:


> My biggest issue isn't so much with Milan himself but with his effect. Whether or not he says people shouldn't try his techniques at home and even if he talks about his calm energy, the bottom line is that his show and books have led to a lot of people incorrectly diagnosing their dogs as dominant, and attempting to implement his techniques at home to very negative effect. And to be clear - I'm not blaming all alpha-rollers on Milan, I'm talking specifically about people who proudly tell me they watch his show/read his books and have done x,y, and z with their dogs, and then I've got to figure out how to deal with a dog who is now seriously freaked out.


I agree. And if I get called a "calm assertive pack leader" by one more person at petsmart or out walking the dogs I think I'll puke.

Part of the problem is his use of the english language isn't so good, and he describes things in a way that can easily be taken in the wrong context.

His show doesn't help me at all really, as my dogs don't have any behavior issues that the dogs that are normally on show exhibit even if I wanted to try his methods.

The only exception would be Hope launching at dogs when she gets close to them, but it's not aggressive, she just wants to lick face submissively, and launching at a squirrel if it gets too close. Part of me would actually like to see what he would do with her when she gets over the top excited. Her reaction is not fear, not aggression, she just gets so excited she can't control herself regardless of how I act and I have no way to calm her.

I could get loud and aggressive, and that would probably scare her into calming down, but that's way to handle it IMO.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

pupresq said:


> My biggest issue isn't so much with Milan himself but with his effect. Whether or not he says people shouldn't try his techniques at home and even if he talks about his calm energy, the bottom line is that his show and books have led to a lot of people incorrectly diagnosing their dogs as dominant, and attempting to implement his techniques at home to very negative effect. And to be clear - I'm not blaming all alpha-rollers on Milan, I'm talking specifically about people who proudly tell me they watch his show/read his books and have done x,y, and z with their dogs, and then I've got to figure out how to deal with a dog who is now seriously freaked out.


That is true. 

I am also bothered by his explanations of the dogs "moods" after he has been working with them or when he has been holding the dog on its side. 
He says a dog is "calm and submissive" but I see something totally different in their body language; things like avoidance, stress, calming signals: yawning, shifting eyes, lip licking, repeated blinking, squinting, ears back, whale eye, turning head away, corners of the mouth pulled back in a "grin", tense body, etc...


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

pupresq said:


> My biggest issue isn't so much with Milan himself but with his effect. Whether or not he says people shouldn't try his techniques at home and even if he talks about his calm energy, the bottom line is that his show and books have led to a lot of people incorrectly diagnosing their dogs as dominant, and attempting to implement his techniques at home to very negative effect. And to be clear - I'm not blaming all alpha-rollers on Milan, I'm talking specifically about people who proudly tell me they watch his show/read his books and have done x,y, and z with their dogs, and then I've got to figure out how to deal with a dog who is now seriously freaked out.


I agree, and I think that is really what this discussion, that has happened countless times here and otherwise, comes down to. Some may like what they see, or be impressed with his accomplishments with dogs on TV and feel that he is saving dogs.
He may be, but he also is no quiet professional, and exploits both the dogs and impressionable owners into buying his books, and training products. (such as his illusion collar) How is that not encouraging people to emulate his training methods? He absolutely is, and therefore many think he should be more responsible about the information that he puts out/displays on TV. 

One thing I would be interested in finding out, is does Cesar pursue any further education regarding animal behavior/conditioning/training? Does he have any working/learning relationships with other trainers? Or does he consider his philosophy to be above others? (feel free to answer with any references if you know if he has discussed this somewhere!)


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

MTAussie said:


> One thing I would be interested in finding out, is does Cesar pursue any further education regarding animal behavior/conditioning/training? Does he have any working/learning relationships with other trainers? Or does he consider his philosophy to be above others? (feel free to answer with any references if you know if he has discussed this somewhere!)


A quick Google provides an interview...



> *There's an old joke that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third one is wrong. Do you believe there are other training methods besides yours that are just as effective?*
> 
> Absolutely, there are other methods. I'm not the only person who can help people. There are 68 million dogs in America—I can't get to all of them.
> So we need all the professionals to help and accomplish the same goal, which is a balanced dog. How you accomplish that is up to you, as long as you use a humane approach
> ...


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

TxRider, thanks. 

I am wondering also if he would pursue something in terms of professional education, or anything/one specific he may endorse? Any associations he may contribute or belong to?


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

that victoria chick is the stupiest person I have ever seen and her show should be YANKED! She had the AUDACITY to tell this family that their dog wa almost untrainable at ELEVEN MONTHS OLD!! I wanted to jump thru the screen! She had these poor people crying because their dog jumped on people and she said it would be PTS! The dog wasn't even aggressive! Look it up, people, I had to change the channel.She would NEVER NEVER EVER in a MILLION YEARS be able to handle a dog like Paige. Surely Paige should have been PTS a long time ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Paige would have scared that idiot right onto my counter top.She is the WORST EXCUSE FOR A DOG TRAINER I HAVE EVER SEEN!!!!


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

PS Ivan Dunbar is hot as all get out!


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