# Is Pano Genetic?



## jaggirl47

I am just trying to get the take of the members on this board. Do you feel it is genetic or some other cause and why?


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## gagsd

I read a study that linked it to the distemper (I think) vaccine.


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## jaggirl47

gagsd said:


> I read a study that linked it to the distemper (I think) vaccine.


 
I read that there is a possible correlation to distemper vaccine as well, but I think it was due to the drastic rise in pano cases after the vaccine started.


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## Liesje

I'd be interested to know. Luckily so far I haven't seen it in my own dogs.


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## jaggirl47

I know I have done alot of reading on it lately, and more and more texts refer to it as a propable genetic condition. However, no specific genes have been found or seperated but it does have a large tendency to run in the same lines and families.

Just as a disclaimer, I have never had a dog suffer from it and neither of my current dogs have or have had pano. This is just yet another subject I am interested in and would like to know more thoughts and studies.


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## Elaine

I believe it's diet related. Kibble has gotten to the point where there are rather excessive amounts of some nutrients in order to be able to feed dogs of all sizes. My previous kibble fed dogs did get pano. My dogs that were fed a home prepared diet that met their exact NRC needs, didn't, and from I'm told, none of the puppies that have had diets designed this way by Monica, haven't either.


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## jaggirl47

One thing I found interesting is that Leerburg switched to a raw diet and originally assumed the diet would get rid of the pano. Low and behold, pano. Are all of your dogs from the same lines or they all from different ones? If they are the same lines, it would be interesting to know the effects of the diets.


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## Dainerra

From what I've seen, Pano tends to be found in dogs that grow quickly. That can be influenced by a number of factors including diet and genetics. 

Rayden had pano on RAW and on kibble. Singe was starting to show some signs - we took him off the puppy food and his growth slowed down - no more growing pains


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## onyx'girl

I agree with Dainerra, genetics and diet.
I've had two dogs that went through bouts of Pano. 
Onyx had 3 severe cases beginning when she was 6 months(kibble fed until then) She grew fast, thick bones as a pup and as an adult is 26" and 90# She was spayed during her 1st Pano bout....came down with it the day before her spay. 
Karlo had two mild bouts/ 11 months first one 14 mos second bout/ and raw fed since weaning. He also grew fast, and as an adult is 27" and 90#. He is intact.
I don't know that the raw diet played into it as much as the genetic structure factor.
These show how similar they are in bone(they are not related....I don't have Onyx's pedigree to know her lines):


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## jaggirl47

Is it that diet lessens the impact though? I don't think it would change the fact that the dog will get it, but I think what you feed can minimize the overall effects of it.


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## onyx'girl

With Karlo I supplemented with vitamin C and his bouts were very mild. I didn't know about C's benefits when Onyx went through it. C will reduce inflammation, and I believe it did help lessen Karlo's.


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## Capone22

I think weight plays a huge factor. Whether raw or kibble keeping them lean makes a big difference. I think on leerburg, his last dog that got pano in raw was a tad too thick. Once them got him down a couple pounds it went away. 


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## Capone22

I would say genetic in how fast the parents grow. Does the line grow slow and steady? Or fast and then slow? Or do they tend to have spurts of rapid growth? Has there been any research to see if there is any correlation to growth patterns? 


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## jaggirl47

Capone22 said:


> I think weight plays a huge factor. Whether raw or kibble keeping them lean makes a big difference. I think on leerburg, his last dog that got pano in raw was a tad too thick. Once them got him down a couple pounds it went away.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


 
With that article, the dog in question was actually not overweight. It was just not as lean as Ed Frawley would normally keep his dogs by a couple of pounds. This was a mal that came from a very large boned sire that was 85 plus pounds.

He originally had the thought that switching to raw was the answer to pano. He found with this dog it was not. The dog was raw fed and still got pano.


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## Elaine

jaggirl47 said:


> He originally had the thought that switching to raw was the answer to pano. He found with this dog it was not. The dog was raw fed and still got pano.


Just feeding raw is not the answer because most of those diets have some crazy nutritional profiles. Meeting your dog's exact nutritional needs is. My dog were fed to NRC requirements and did not get pano, nor has any of the dogs fed this way that I am aware of. The littermates to my dogs did get pano.


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## Mikelia

My one male had bad bouts of pano from about 5 months until he turned 2. After it started I was sure to keep him lean. He was raised on a grain free, free range meats kibble. I fed many different foods (never full raw though), tried vit c, had calcium, phosphorus, protein etc.. levels down to a pat. I tried every last thing I could and it never seemed to affect the pano bouts. I even considered trying dog chow as people with random bred, cheaply fed dogs seem to have no issues haha. He eventually outgrew it and thank god it is over. There has been a few dogs with the same sire that have had bouts of pano, but not as heavily as he did. 
No one seems to have a real answer on if it is genetic or not, or if food affects it, or if xyz affects it. I remember reading once about a particular sire from the 50's or 60's that had pano and majority of our dogs today go back to that dog in one way or another. This was an asl dog but I have heard there was an influential german dog from way back when that had pano too. Who knows, but it really does plague our breed and it is a horrible thing for puppies to have to go through.


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## Elaine

You didn't feed to NRC requirements for your particular pup so you didn't have the nutritional levels down pat. Pano is horrible and can be avoided if they are fed correctly. I will say that feeding my way is a huge pain in the rear, but it's worth it.


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## jaggirl47

Elaine said:


> You didn't feed to NRC requirements for your particular pup so you didn't have the nutritional levels down pat. Pano is horrible and can be avoided if they are fed correctly. I will say that feeding my way is a huge pain in the rear, but it's worth it.


 
Saying this right here is right on the same level Leerburg was at. They thought the way they fed was the be all end all to keep from getting pano, until a pup came down with pano. This thought was shared and pushed so much, but it was refuted and shown to be not true.


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## onyx'girl

Elaine said:


> You didn't feed to NRC requirements for your particular pup so you didn't have the nutritional levels down pat. Pano is horrible and can be avoided if they are fed correctly. I will say that *feeding my way* is a huge pain in the rear, but it's worth it.


What is your way?


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## jaggirl47

onyx'girl said:


> What is your way?


I think this is:

Diet Analysis With Corrections


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## onyx'girl

That really doesn't tell me much....other than paying a $150 consult fee for an analysis? I'd like to know what exactly Elaine fed her pup to avoid Pano. But if she doesn't want to share I understand.


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## jaggirl47

onyx'girl said:


> That really doesn't tell me much....other than paying a $150 consult fee for an analysis? I'd like to know what exactly Elaine fed her pup to avoid Pano. But if she doesn't want to share I understand.


For puppies it is $375 for email consultations for a diet. Adults are $150.


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## Liesje

This is purely anecdotal but my dogs that never had pano were both kibble fed (one primarily California Natural and the other Cal Nat and Fromm Gold) from weaning on and were not supplemented (other than occasional table scraps and raw meat, but nothing regular enough to be considered a regular diet/supplement). One is OFA Good and the other is SV-A1 Normal (probably OFA Good or Fair); both have normal elbows. Both were and still are pretty normal sized male dogs (70-75bs), both intact. Both have always been kept lean. One is all WGSL and one is all WL so absolutely no common ancestry within many generations. One was very slow to physically mature (age 3.5-4 years) the other not as slow but still probably on the slow slide (and him mentally as well). Neither have ever been "loose" movers, neither went through that gangly puppy stage or ever had wobbly hocks, downed pasterns, or any sort of "floppy" movement.

Not sure if that helps. I wouldn't even be sure what pano looks like, I don't know that I've ever seen it in my dogs or my foster puppies or my close friends' dogs but it sounds pretty painful for a young, energetic puppy


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## jaggirl47

Liesje said:


> This is purely anecdotal but my dogs that never had pano were both kibble fed (one primarily California Natural and the other Cal Nat and Fromm Gold) from weaning on and were not supplemented (other than occasional table scraps and raw meat, but nothing regular enough to be considered a regular diet/supplement).


This is pretty much the same way I feed both of mine. Leyna was very slow growing but I believe she has reached her full size. Hades is growing like a weed but I have seen zero problems from him. Both of mine are fed Orijen.

Leyna has a full sibling a year older that suffered from pano. I talk to the owner and am friends with her. So, if diet is the be all end all, then I can just as easily say that Orijen is the reason Leyna did not get pano. However, my thoughts are that it is genetic but the quality you feed plays a role on if the dog has symptoms or not.


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## onyx'girl

Liesje said:


> .
> I wouldn't even be sure what pano looks like, I don't know that I've ever seen it in my dogs or my foster puppies or my close friends' dogs but it sounds pretty painful for a young, energetic puppy


For Onyx it was a limp with some whining. It shifted legs with different bouts. The front legs were the most painful for her, she was a bit lethargic when she had it in front. She was on Nutro large breed pup for her first 5 months(right before the recalls began)Then I put her on TWO as I transitioned to raw.

Karlo showed only a slight limp/rear leg(my trainer noticed the first bout and it went away within a week each time)

Pano has nothing to do with hips/elbow ratings.

I think some dogs are more stoic too, so will just carry on even if they feel some pain. 

It isn't IMO a big deal, just part of puppyhood.


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## Elaine

onyx'girl said:


> That really doesn't tell me much....other than paying a $150 consult fee for an analysis? I'd like to know what exactly Elaine fed her pup to avoid Pano. But if she doesn't want to share I understand.


My pups were fed to NRC requirements which has to do with actual nutrition and not randomly throwing food at them without any idea of the nutrient profile like most raw diets do. 

You feed your pup the actual nutrition for his size and age, and then add calories as needed. The diet is adjusted in the beginning with every three pounds gained or if he needs more or less calories. As the pup gets older, it is adjusted every five pounds.

This way the pup is fed only the level of nutrition he specifically needs for his size, age, and energy level; not more or less.

This does require weighing the pup and guaging his body condition at least weekly, and weighing every single ingredient in his meal every single day.


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## Dainerra

jaggirl47 said:


> Is it that diet lessens the impact though? I don't think it would change the fact that the dog will get it, but I think what you feed can minimize the overall effects of it.


I think, in most cases, diet can CAUSE pano in that over-feeding can make a dog grow too fast.

On the other hand, feeding a smaller amount/lower protein/however you accomplish it, you can slow down the growth rate - no matter what genetic disposition is there. In some cases that might mean a very mild case, in others, no symptoms at all.

Of course, it's kind of hard to prove a negative lol


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## onyx'girl

Did you feed veggies/fruits/ and supplements? Were these commercial prepared type foods from Monica's suggestions, or was everything from scratch? You don't have to be real specific, I just want to know vaguely _what_ you fed.


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## jaggirl47

Dainerra said:


> I think, in most cases, diet can CAUSE pano in that over-feeding can make a dog grow too fast.
> 
> On the other hand, feeding a smaller amount/lower protein/however you accomplish it, you can slow down the growth rate - no matter what genetic disposition is there. In some cases that might mean a very mild case, in others, no symptoms at all.
> 
> Of course, it's kind of hard to prove a negative lol


 
Then if lower protein were the key, both of my dogs would have pano. They are both fed food that is 38% protein compaired to many others that are 24ish%. I have seen more pano in dogs on lower protein diets than on Orijen.


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## Dainerra

kind of my point. every dog is different. it might not be specifically protein - otherwise all raw fed dogs would get it!

kibble especially has a lot of additives and carbs and sugars. both can contribute to rapid growth as well. 

Also, again there is probably some level of genetic component. Most likely a combination of factors. Kind of like two brothers - one can eat McDonald's 5 days a week and fatty foods and is healthy vs the second who eats "right" but has heart disease


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## Elaine

onyx'girl said:


> Did you feed veggies/fruits/ and supplements? Were these commercial prepared type foods from Monica's suggestions, or was everything from scratch? You don't have to be real specific, I just want to know vaguely _what_ you fed.


Everything is from scratch with supplements to fill in the nutritional gaps. The initial baby puppy diet was mostly beef heart, burger, turkey neck, and white and sweet potato, with a few other things in it. I do feed fruits and veggies for the phytonutrients.The older puppy diet switched from the beef heart to boneless/skinless turkey thigh, but basically the same other ingredients, just in different amounts.


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## abakerrr

My female (WGWL / French) had three bouts of pano with several days of mild limping on random limbs at different ages. Shes definitely on the petite side of the standard (full grown she is 52lbs) and didn't have any major growth spurts as a puppy. She was always fed TOTW before I put her on RAW and when I tried to play around with lower protein diets (I added natural balance sweet potato and fish LID) to reduce the levels, it didn't seem to effect anything. Vitamin C didn't really do much for her either. I just kept her crated for a day or two when it cropped up and it went away with no lasting effects.

Could never seem to get a definite answer on what it really is and how to mitigate the symptoms, aside from "it happens with larger breed dogs" and "keep them quiet".


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## Vinnie

Just some more anecdotal input for you. I have never had a dog that experienced pano.

Our childhood GSD was mostly fed table scraps with some dry kibble added. My first GSD and my sisters' GSDs (who were her pups) were also fed this way. We bought the dry kibble at the grocery store - but this was several years ago (back when IAMs was thought to be a top quality kibble and prior to special puppy formulas). They all were large GSDs, over the standard size, once full grown. I don't recall any of these dogs ever going through pano.

Dalton my old boy was fed a rather low quality kibble during the first years of his life and was never fed a puppy formula. His growth rate I would say was normal. He was on the larger size for a GSD, maturing at a healthy weight of 87-88#. I don't know about his siblings or parents but he never experienced pano.

Sundance comes from generations (mother & grandmother) of raw fed dogs and has always been fed a raw diet. Now his growth rate was shockingly fast to me. I remember being real worried about pano with him just because of how fast he grew. I was very careful about his diet and really tried to control his growth while being careful to assure he received the proper nutrition but nothing helped. He is just over 17 months of age and 87.5#. The vet says he is a healthy weight but could maybe gain a pound or 2.  I'd have to ask his breeder if his siblings or parents have ever had pano. He has never experienced pano. 

Butch has been raw fed since 8 weeks of age. His growth rate has been on the slower end of the dogs I've owned. Because his growth was slower it caused him to put on a little too much weight at times and we had to adjust his diet many times. I kind of worried about pano with him as I had heard of older siblings (previous litter) and a litter mate having pano. He does have a higher pain tolerance but as far as I can tell he has never experienced pano.

So for me - I can't prove a genetic, growth rate, or dietary component. I guess all I can say is some dogs get it - some dogs don't. :shrug:


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## lhczth

IMO there is a genetic component influenced by environment. I know some people who have had terrible luck with Pano in just about all of their dogs, male and female. I have never experienced Pano in either my kibble fed dogs or since I switched to raw (almost 14 years ago and 3 generations). I have owned mostly bitches and one over-sized moose (Donovan). I tend to keep my pups lean and allow free exercise/play.


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## Vinnie

Vinnie said:


> Sundance comes from generations (mother & grandmother) of raw fed dogs and has always been fed a raw diet. Now his growth rate was shockingly fast to me. I remember being real worried about pano with him just because of how fast he grew. I was very careful about his diet and really tried to control his growth while being careful to assure he received the proper nutrition but nothing helped. He is just over 17 months of age and 87.5#. The vet says he is a healthy weight but could maybe gain a pound or 2.  I'd have to ask his breeder if his siblings or parents have ever had pano. He has never experienced pano





lhczth said:


> IMO there is a genetic component influenced by environment. I know some people who have had terrible luck with Pano in just about all of their dogs, male and female. I have never experienced Pano in either my kibble fed dogs or since I switched to raw (almost 14 years ago and 3 generations). I have owned mostly bitches and one over-sized moose (Donovan). I tend to keep my pups lean and allow free exercise/play.


 And that would answer the question about if Sundance's family has had any history of pano.


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## onyx'girl

I kept Karlo and Onyx lean, even to the point that people commented they looked too thin. 
Though they grew about 3# per week on average, which I know is not 'average'!
Onyx had a brother that had Pano(he was on a grocery store brand!) but both were long legged/gangly. She is the biggest female in her litter, most are a couple few inches shorter and much lighter in weight....as are Karlo's siblings. 

I wonder if my well water played into my puppies growth, I'm serious!


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## lhczth

LOL I have well water.


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## jaggirl47

I have well water too.  No pano here (so far).


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## onyx'girl

I have two nuclear plants within an hours drive....does that make a difference? jk :help:


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## jaggirl47

onyx'girl said:


> I have two nuclear plants within an hours drive....does that make a difference? jk :help:


 
Ummm. I think we have an answer! That makes me think though. How many pano dogs live in a similar type of situation?


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## Mikelia

My Pano dog was raised in the city, quite close to the dupont plant which dumps a LOT of waste into the lake. So might be on to something there lol. My childhood dog started the pano problems when we were in the country though. 
Eli was never fed puppy food, started with Innova Evo (before P&G owned it) which is quite similar to Orijen. This is what he was fed up until the Pano started. Eventually we tried some lower protein holistic foods. Tried some supplements. Kept getting pano bouts. Then did a ton of research on specific ingredients to avoid, calcium, phosphorus, selenium, magnesium etc... levels, did a ton more research trying to find a food that matched that, fed that food for 6 months and his poops were great but the pano bouts never stopped until he finally stopped growing. However he is a very big boy and was always a big puppy. Thick bones and grew fast - although steadily. He was 95lbs the last time I weighed him, and has always been kept quite lean. 
I am always exctied about pano discussions hoping to figure out the answer some day.


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## Heike's mom

I have read that it could be, our 5 month old GSD was hit hard with Pano immediately after her 3rd set of puppy shots, which that one included rabies vaccine. Has anyone else noticed a correlation between pano and rabies vaccine. We are treating her with an anti-inflammatory 2x daily as needed as per the vet. She is still in a bit of pain as she favors a couple legs still and will whimper if the other dog bumps her wrong when they are playing. I think it is going to be a long couple of years. 

We have well water also, it is high in calcium-should I be buying bottled water or getting jugs of city water? What do you think?


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## wolfy dog

In Deja's litter all the males (the larger and smaller ones) had Pano and none of the females. The females are petite. She is 15 months old and weighs 60 pounds.


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## onyx'girl

Well water could very well play into the extra minerals, etc. After researching diet for kidney issues, filtered water is recommended so the dog doesn't have to process extra minerals. Though where I live, it is very sandy soil and our water is really good, clear and not real hard or rusty.
As far as vaccines playing into Pano, I don't think it does. My females first bout was at 6 months, her rabies vax was at 4 months. 
After reading about Dr. Dodds protocols, I'd never give the rabies vaccine with others. Space them out at least two weeks apart.


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## TheMutleyCrue

When my female German shepherd dog was 7-9 months old, she got it. I don't understand because she was always on the lean side. In fact, she grew very slowly too and never was quick to fill out... 
I'm not sure if it's genetic or not, but all I know is despite the fact my Dakota wasn't fat at all and didn't grow quickly, she suffered from pano from about 2 weeks!


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## trcy

Riley had it in his front leg. Kaleb had it really bad. It eventually went to all his legs. He's fine now. The breeder said his grandfather also had pano really bad.


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## Zeusthegsd143

TheMutleyCrue said:


> When my female German shepherd dog was 7-9 months old, she got it. I don't understand because she was always on the lean side. In fact, she grew very slowly too and never was quick to fill out...
> I'm not sure if it's genetic or not, but all I know is despite the fact my Dakota wasn't fat at all and didn't grow quickly, she suffered from pano from about 2 weeks!


Pano is genetic. It doesn't always happen though. Sadly Zeus had it flare up 4 times. It goes away when they stop growing.


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## zetti

My 7 mo WGWL pup is on his 2d bout with panno. The first was pretty bad & lasted the standard full month. He's on adult formula Wellness.

He's growing fast, poor guy. He's just started holding his paw up, so we're starting another round.

I had a WGSL male several years ago who grew like crazy, I mean he was bigger every 2 hours. He developed panno in all 4 legs (epiphystitis).

I refuse to give rimadyl, so it's tough. Just baby aspirin for the inflammation.

I need to check with my pup's breeder to see if it's in the lines.


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## Hineni7

Areli had her first (and prayerfully last) bout in left forearm. She was seriously seriously lame, moaned and groaned. Thankfully it only lasted a few days, by week end she was fine. Her father had pano in 3 legs... Aspirin (didn't have arnica at the time), high doses of beer pollen/vitamin C, upped dose of her Joint Health (has msm) and Fresh Factors and rest... I did reduce her protein intake for 2 days just in case.. She is very lean, but at 84lbs at 38wks,she is a bit oversized...


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