# Service Dog Attack



## LARHAGE

Oh My God!!! I was at a tack store where my best friend works, this man and woman come in with a HUGE Bernese Mountain Dog with an orange vest that says " Don't pet". The man asks my friend for help with a saddle and my friend starts to show him some, I go and wait at her desk and the woman walks over to my friends desk and starts to ask me about the dog pictures on the desk and wall, my friend has a beautiful red/black Showline that she competes in Obedience with and is doing great with, the lady says " Oh I don't trust Shepherds, they are unpredictable, lol!!! I tell her they are simply put the best dogs in the world and of course show her a picture of my Gavin, she than walks over to her friend looking at saddles and the dog lays down completely blocking the aisle through the saddles, my friend asks if she can move the dog and she says " Oh just step over him'' she does and walks approx. 2 feet more to get another saddle when all of a sudden the dog jumps up grabs her by the arm from behind and drags her down to the floor where he goes after her legs and arms growling like a lion, I ran to my friend with a lead rope to try to spank him off of her, the two could not pull him off, a fireman was shopping with his wife and literally lifted the dog up by the collar, my friend was bleeding profusely, an ambulance was called and my friend was rushed to E
Emergency.

I just got back from taking her home and feeding her dogs and horses for her, she has severe injuries and a severed artery in her arm, I did get to ask the woman what kind of service dog was this, in other words what did it assist with, she didn't appear to have any handicaps , at least not visible. I never got an answer, I really think Service Dogs should be regulated as these kind of things are going to ruin it for real Service Dogs, there were a lot of people there that were screaming in shock and horror, not good for the public perception. 

I did say to the lady, I guess German Shepherds aren't the only unpredictable dogs huh?


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## Jax08

omg...so hope your friend fully recovers. I just simply have no words for this person's stupidity and hope your friend has all her medical bills AND pain and suffering fully compensate.


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## GSDElsa

Holy cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## PaddyD

Jax08 said:


> omg...so hope your friend fully recovers. I just simply have no words for this person's stupidity and hope your friend has all her medical bills AND pain and suffering fully compensate.


Couldn't agree more. That's horrible!


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## Alexandria610

Yikes! I hope your friend is ok.....that's horrible.

I know exactly what you mean about the regulations. I got so frustrated one time when I was trying to get my rescue Alex used to the pet store. She was finally starting to somewhat trust it and relax when a HUGE (and I mean, monstrously huge) GSD walks in. He, too, was wearing a service vest from what looked to be a legitimate service company. It, too, said similar things such as 'do not pet, I am working'. He seemed normal, just walking by this lady (that, again, didn't seem to have any need for a service dog) and minding his own business. When I walked toward the counter with Alex, ignoring him and not looking at him (we were about 20 - 30 feet away at this point, by the way, and Alex didn't even bat an eyelash in his direction) he FLIPPED out and started baring his teeth and snarling and lunging at the end of his leash at us. I blocked my pup (even though, again, we were a considerable distance) and of course she flipped out, because she had JUST started to gain confidence. The woman looked down at him, pat him on the head, and kept on walking. WTF. Made me so mad. REAL service dogs don't randomly go off the handle like that - especially in a pet store. Just. Ugh. I know someone who TRAINS service dogs - and none of her dogs have EVER acted that way. I told her about that incident and she couldn't have been any more upset. She told me if I ever see him and the woman again that I am to find out the service he 'works for' or is under, and she would have his service license revoked. I don't even believe he was a service dog. I think she just took that vest from another dog that she MAY have had as a service dog. I dunno.

At least we didn't have the problems that you guys had. That's disgraceful and unacceptable. Tell your friend I'm praying for her.


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## Stevenzachsmom

How horrible for your friend - not to mention you and every customer that witnessed that. WOW! Your friend will definitely be in my prayers. Praying for a full and speedy recovery. Thank you for being there for her. Please keep us posted.


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## selzer

Note to self, never walk over a dog I don't know regardless of what the owners say. Not blaming the victim here, but that seems like something that wouldn't happen very often. I step over Cujo all the time, but I was there when he was born and knew him his whole life. 

That is just awful. I like BMDs in general, though I have never owned one or been around one regularly. It definitely sounds like the people have serious issues. Especially that bit about shepherds being unpredictable, makes me wonder what the history is there. I highly doubt this was the first time the BMD showed any signs of issues.


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## Whiteshepherds

OMG is right!! Is she going to be okay? Boy I'd love to know if that was really a service dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom

That is most definitely not the breed standard for BMD temperament. Very sad indeed.


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## selzer

It sounds like the way things are, it CAN be a service dog. A lot of service dog owners train their own dogs. Just because you have a disability does not mean you are good at dog training, socializing, etc. and I always wonder, these dogs help people be more independent but how do they control the dog if there is a problem?


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## LARHAGE

The Police were there and Animal Control came as well, I'm not sure what happened to the Dog as I went in the ambulance with my friend, there was so much blood from the bites, my friend is a huge animal lover , a dog and cat rescuer so this is very hard for her, she wouldn't want harm to come to the dog, ironically I was with her Monday during her dogs training class and the exercise they were doing was stepping over their dogs , I was surprised that none of the dogs were fazed by it. I like BMD's as well, and always thought they were sweet dogs, but like we all know here a dog is an animal, you can never know how they will react in every situation.


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## holland

They are typically very friendly dogs-with a clown like personality-usually really sweet dogs


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## blehmannwa

I hope that your friend recovers. There is just so much wrong with this incident. Part of our therapy dog training involves keeping the dog in a down while someone steps over him. I can't imagine that the BMD was a legit service animal.


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## Alexandria610

This whole situation just makes me sad


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## BlackPuppy

Wow! I'm glad that fireman was there. I seriously hope the authorities do something about this dog.


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## NancyJ

Wow that is terrible. I really hate that people can throw a vest on any old dog and not have some requirements for temperament testing for service dogs.


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## e.rigby

omg... there are no words... just wow...


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## AbbyK9

I think it's wrong to assume that a dog is not a Service Dog because a person does not *LOOK* disabled - there are a lot of invisible disabilities from diabetes to epilepsy to psychiatric disorders that have a legitimate need of a Service Dog. So please never assume that a dog is not a Service Dog because the person does not look disabled.

That said, I think both situations give us some good clues as to the fact that neither of these dogs was a Service Dog - simply a dog someone was passing off as a Service Dog. What makes this particularly baffling is that both examples took place in a store that sells pet / animal goods and usually allows dogs, so there would have been no need to bring a fake Service Dog since a pet would have most likely been allowed.

But, in the first case, the fact that the handler would allow the dog to lie in the middle of the aisle, blocking it for other customers is a pretty good hint that this was not a Service Dog. Real dog/handler teams try to be unobtrusive. They keep the dog to the side and make sure it doesn't block store aisles. Or under the table at a restaurant so it doesn't block the throughway for other customers. That's just common courtesy. Would you place your cane or wheelchair in a way that prevents other customers from getting through? Probably not.

The fact that the person then said, "Just step over him." showed a complete and utter lack of common sense. Yes, a Service Dog (and a Therapy Dog) should be fine with someone stepping over them without breaking their down. That's good obedience. That doesn't mean they should deliberately be put in such a situation when they are out working. That's just stupid. People could step on them, stumble over them, kick them. Not to mention it's also pretty dang rude. Your store staff and other customers should not have to step over a dog that shouldn't be blocking the aisle in the first place.

The dog in the second story was acting in a way that is not compatible with being a Service Dog. Matter of fact, the ADA says that stores may ask Service Dogs to leave if they behave in a way that is dangerous or disruptive in the facility - like barking, growling, showing aggression, lunging, not being under the handler's control or peeing / pooping in the store. They could have told that person to leave right then.

Sad fact is, anyone can go online and order a Service Dog vest or Service Dog ID. They can even "register" their Service Dog and get a certificate and ID card. All for very little money and many very official looking.

Side note, shouldn't this be in the Service Dog category?


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## selzer

I step over mine and would never expect a problem. I never had someone else stepping over my dog.


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## Samba

If this keeps up, laws will change.


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## onyx'girl

Wow, the BMD's I've known are pretty easy going. I hope your friend recovers with no complications. I never step over a dog I don't know...I cannot believe the handler suggested it. Most dogs should not be put in that situation, even one trained as a 'SD' 
The firefighter hero was at the right place/right time! What a situation to fall into.


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## arycrest

How terrible, hope your friend will be okay!!! Sure was lucky that the fireman was there!!!


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## selzer

Well, just because someone is disabled does not mean they cannot be rude or lacking in common sense. I know that forcing service dogs to be licensed or registered or go through some type of certification can be a hardship on owners, incidents like these indicate that the system has issues as it is.


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## e.rigby

I think the event that took place goes beyond the dog being or not being a service dog. Simply put, the dog was a very unstable dog to attack so viciously for a slight injustice that should have been desensitized and proofed in training before ever putting the dog in a real life situation where the events leading up to the attack took place could have ever occurred. There were also so many other things that could have been handled differently (such as the dog not being allowed to lie in the middle of the aisle, or the handler not telling the worker 'step' over his dog, or the employee listening to the handler (still not the employees fault)) -- if the owners were in fact lying about the dog being a SD they should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law. If the dog really was a SD, I feel so sorry for the backlash the community of people with well trained SDs are going to receive 

Stepping on a dog accidentally, or giving direct eye contact to a fearful dog, or towering over a fearful dog can cause a reaction -- but seriously, the degree of 'reaction' this dog gave was absurd! I've seen dog fights between two dogs lead to less severe injuries! 

I don't think this dog should remain in the custody of it's 'owners' ... quite frankly, I think it should be pts. There are too many good dogs out there with no such history that need homes to go all out and rehabilitate this dog... however, if the dog is to be given a pass I think it needs to go to a very experienced handler because it seems to me it's current owners are negligent and clueless :/


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## BowWowMeow

OMG I hope your friend is ok. BMD are not normally unpredictable and vicious. This is an awful thing for all dogs when something like this happens and of course incredibly traumatic for your friend and the witnesses. 

I hope the owners of the dog take action to be sure this doesn't happen again but I don't think the dog should be pts. I do think if this is a service dog that s/he should be retired and carefully managed.


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## selzer

e.rigby said:


> I think the event that took place goes beyond the dog being or not being a service dog. Simply put, the dog was a very unstable dog to attack so viciously for a slight injustice that should have been desensitized and proofed in training before ever putting the dog in a real life situation where the events leading up to the attack took place could have ever occurred. There were also so many other things that could have been handled differently (such as the dog not being allowed to lie in the middle of the aisle, or the handler not telling the worker 'step' over his dog, or the employee listening to the handler (still not the employees fault)) -- if the owners were in fact lying about the dog being a SD they should be penalized to the fullest extent of the law. If the dog really was a SD, I feel so sorry for the backlash the community of people with well trained SDs are going to receive
> 
> Stepping on a dog accidentally, or giving direct eye contact to a fearful dog, or towering over a fearful dog can cause a reaction -- but seriously, the degree of 'reaction' this dog gave was absurd! I've seen dog fights between two dogs lead to less severe injuries!
> 
> I don't think this dog should remain in the custody of it's 'owners' ... quite frankly, I think it should be pts. There are too many good dogs out there with no such history that need homes to go all out and rehabilitate this dog... however, if the dog is to be given a pass I think it needs to go to a very experienced handler because it seems to me it's current owners are negligent and clueless :/


I think the dog should be PTS also. Sad yes, but this dog is a seriously dangerous. And the behavior was not normal for the breed. Probably it was just a matter of time before this dog attacked someone. It may not have attacked today if the friend did not step over it, but maybe he would have done as much to a child skipping by him next week. 

If this was my dog, if my dog pulled someone down and bit them several times on different extremities, I hope I would be able to do the right thing and put the dog down.


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## e.rigby

selzer said:


> If this was my dog, if my dog pulled someone down and bit them several times on different extremities, I hope I would be able to do the right thing and put the dog down.


I agree. I consider myself very educated as far as training and believe my dogs to be well behaved... also, whenever we're out I am always focused on them and what they are doing. So it would be hard for them to ever do something so bad. HOWEVER, if ever any of my dogs attacked like the BMD in this situation did, I wouldn't even consider rehabilitating  the viciousness of the attack makes me think this dog will always be a liability to some degree... and I don't think keeping him alive is worth that risk. I know not everyone will agree... but someone's life was drastically changed today because of this dog and the dog's owners  the dog should never be allowed the opportunity to mess up again, and the owners should be penalized greatly for their part in all of this.


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## selzer

e.rigby said:


> I agree. I consider myself very educated as far as training and believe my dogs to be well behaved... also, whenever we're out I am always focused on them and what they are doing. So it would be hard for them to ever do something so bad. HOWEVER, if ever any of my dogs attacked like the BMD in this situation did, I wouldn't even consider rehabilitating  the viciousness of the attack makes me think this dog will always be a liability to some degree... and I don't think keeping him alive is worth that risk. I know not everyone will agree... but someone's life was drastically changed today because of this dog and the dog's owners  the dog should never be allowed the opportunity to mess up again, and the owners should be penalized greatly for their part in all of this.


And, this is not about revenge or death penalty-punishment, it is not about hating the dog. But letting the dog continue on, puts others in serious danger, and as the other thread about the mayor banning dogs at public events, shows what kind of repercussions such an event can have. It is the extent of the damage, the length of the encounter, the inability of others to get the dog off. If a young dog nips a child as they run by, I am not going to yell "off with its head!" Big wake up call, big time changes need to happen, yes; but that can be worked with. Neither of the owners were able to pull the dog off the lady. It is not safe to let them have the dog back. There are way too many dogs put down for just being unwanted to spend money and time rehabilitating this one to the point where you still can't for sure trust it. Release the dog from its demons.


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## e.rigby

selzer said:


> And, this is not about revenge or death penalty-punishment, it is not about hating the dog. But letting the dog continue on, puts others in serious danger, and as the other thread about the mayor banning dogs at public events, shows what kind of repercussions such an event can have. It is the extent of the damage, the length of the encounter, the inability of others to get the dog off. If a young dog nips a child as they run by, I am not going to yell "off with its head!" Big wake up call, big time changes need to happen, yes; but that can be worked with. Neither of the owners were able to pull the dog off the lady. It is not safe to let them have the dog back. There are way too many dogs put down for just being unwanted to spend money and time rehabilitating this one to the point where you still can't for sure trust it. Release the dog from its demons.


Definitely, the severity of the attack is why I think the dog should be pts. I think he's a huge liability from here on out and a continued danger as long as he's allowed to live! It's not just about training him and rehabilitating him (or what have you); but about making sure the handler is constantly aware of the dog at all times... that's a HUGE burden to put on anyone and the consequences for human error can be massive! 

A dog that bites and leaves a puncture wound isn't necessarily going to be a dog I'd think negatively of... our skin is pretty delicate and it doesn't take much to cause damage -- however, with so many people around, and it taking so long to just get this dog to release the person it was mauling... and for it to have caused so much damage... I just don't think I'd ever feel safe with this dog.

I also agree that the time and money one might want to spend on this dog to work it past these severe issues would be better spent working with a very adoptable dog that would be pts for lack of time and money


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## DharmasMom

Wow. How horrible. I hope your friend makes a full recovery. Everything about the situation makes me sad.


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## CarrieJ

Wow, that's awful. I hope your friend gets better without longer lasting issues.
Berners are not braveheart dogs as a rule. But, if you have one with really bad nerves and has a fear aggressive reaction...you do have A LOT OF DOG to handle. 
My former neighbor got bit in the face by a "service dog" that reacted in his friend's home (story sounds; resource guarding to me) and that was a Mastiff. He almost lost his eye. I told him that his friends do not have a "service dog"....no service dog would act like that.

I tend to agree that there probably needs to be some kind of regulation and stiff penalties for people that just use the vests to get their dogs into places. As loath as I am for "Nanny State" horse puckey....too many unethical people are out there with dogs that act out in an unstable, unpredictable, dangerous manner...under the cloak/vest of a service dog.
They also will ruin it for the people with panic attacks, epilepsy, hearing impaired, etc. It makes me slightly angry.
Once again, I really hope the best for your friend.


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## LARHAGE

The dog was confiscated by Animal Control because of the severity of the attack, the dog is well over 100 pounds and my friend is 115, it's a sad situation all the way around, my friend has to see an Orthopedic specialist Monday as they think there is nerve damage in her arm, there are puncture wounds from all 4 canines, he literally chomped down on her arm, it really sucks for my friend as she competes on her horses and her German Shepherd and her compete in Obedience and were going to do her CGC test next month, she is very active and lives alone, so we all have to coordinate our schedules now to help her with her horses.

This Tack Store actually no longer allowed dogs in the store after an Australian Shepherd attacked a child running down an aisle, the only reason this dog was allowed in was because it was supposedly a Service Dog.


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## NancyJ

This is just terrible. I really hope that the full force of the law is applied against this owner and, yes, I think the dog should be PTS given the severity of the attack. What was the owners response after all this? Surely they willingly turned the dog over.


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## fuzzybunny

So sorry your friend has to go through this and I hope she makes a full recovery. I agree the dog should be PTS. Any update on the dog or the owners?


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## Konotashi

LARHAGE said:


> This Tack Store actually no longer allowed dogs in the store after an Australian Shepherd attacked a child running down an aisle, the only reason this dog was allowed in was because it was supposedly a Service Dog.


Now I wonder how they'll feel when other people bring in REAL service dogs. :/ 

I'm sorry your friend went through that, and now has to go through the entire treatment process (or whatever you would like to call it) because someone decided to pretend their unstable dog was a service dog. 

One time my mom was at Uncle Bear's, and someone had a pit bull. She asked to pet it, and his owner said she could. She bent down to pet him and he about snapped her hand off. I think people need to know their dogs a bit better so they don't endanger the public when they take their dogs out.


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## NancyJ

Are there folks within the dog community pushing the issues of making sure service dog animals have an appropriate temperament and are truly working in some role....*What can we do*. I hate seeing the abuse when it is such a truly valuable service for some.

In addtion to the pain and suffering and even death, the more this kind of stuff happens the more priveleges we loose with our well trained dogs.

If the dog community does not come forward with a solution, I am concerned the dog hating folks will have one none of us want, as we have seen it elsewhere with breed bans etc.


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## LARHAGE

That's what I fear Nancy, I asked the owner of the Berm while we were waiting for the paramedics if the dog had ever acted like this, and like I said I know not every handicap is visible, but this was a HUGE dog and it obviously was not regular type Service Dog, and I see A LOT of Service Dogs on campus working at a University, they all are obvious assistance dogs, the woman never would answer and that is when I started suspecting that this was just an unstable pet that she just wanted to take everywhere with her, I remember her just telling my friend "you need to stay calm and relax", my friend was not freaking out, she's an animal person, but it's hard to be calm when you are literally knocked to the ground and severely mauled, she was standing up and the fireman had a towel wrapped around her arm, but blood was still running down her arm from the severed artery, it was the worst dog attack I have seen, I think this dog HAD to have shown some signs of this type of behavior before and the owner just doesn't get it.

The REAL Service Dogs are going to be the ones that look bad from this and it's a shame, I agree there has to be a way of regulating these dogs so people who truly depend on their dogs do not become the victims of others selfish stupidity.


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## msvette2u

Is the woman's insurance or whatever going to pay for your friend's hospital bills!?


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## GermanShepherds6800

I cannot add anything to what has already been brought up and I am all for a system to regulate service dogs to keep things like this happening. My best wishes to your friend for a quick and FULL recovery. She was very lucky the fireman was there. I hope she suffers no trauma around strange dogs from this in future as well. Please keep us posted if you can on her well being and what happens legally to these owners. Please keep after the justice system so this is not dropped and forgotten.


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## Konotashi

I don't know why service dogs AREN'T regulated. Other 'medical devices' are regulated (for the most part), are they not?


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## msvette2u

I wonder if the police report contains information on what type service dog this was, and if it was a hoax, your friend could sue the pants off this irresponsible owner. Which may be a possibility even if the dog was "legit"...


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## Mrs.K

Last time I was talking about regulating Service Dogs and have them in some form and kind of registry I was slammed... but I truly believe it would benefit the Service Dog community. The abusers do more damage than you can possibly imagine so there has got to be something you can do about it.


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## Mrs.K

LARHAGE said:


> The dog was confiscated by Animal Control because of the severity of the attack, the dog is well over 100 pounds and my friend is 115, it's a sad situation all the way around, my friend has to see an Orthopedic specialist Monday as they think there is nerve damage in her arm, there are puncture wounds from all 4 canines, he literally chomped down on her arm, it really sucks for my friend as she competes on her horses and her German Shepherd and her compete in Obedience and were going to do her CGC test next month, she is very active and lives alone, so we all have to coordinate our schedules now to help her with her horses.
> 
> This Tack Store actually no longer allowed dogs in the store after an Australian Shepherd attacked a child running down an aisle, the only reason this dog was allowed in was because it was supposedly a Service Dog.


Wow... I hope she'll get better soon. They should have taken the dog out of the way.


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## ken k

this is tragic, I hope your friend is ok with no permanent damage, to me this sounds like someone passing off the dog as a service dog, which and I may be wrong is a felony, sounds more like this person knew there was a problem with the dog and thought she might work it out with socialization, if you friend decides to sue, the owners of the dog are in big trouble


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## msvette2u

I read this thread last night and was going to mention that my Libby (now 9yrs. old) has learned to lie quietly if we step over her, because if she goes to move, we're usually stepping close enough that I've stepped on her fluffy long fur, and it pulls if she jumps up.
She's an exceptionally nice dog however, and in fact has visited many nursing homes (where my grandparents have resided) as she's my truly "bomb proof" dog.


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## DharmasMom

Service Dogs should be regulated in some way. It is WAY to easy for unscrupulous people to abuse the system. Someone just posted the video of some actress BRAGGING on national TV about how she puts a vest on her dog so she can take it into restaurants with her. There needs to be some sort of system put into place so that only actual trained and certified service dogs are being brought into places that are not open to all dogs and there needs to be a way to differentiate. Situations like these are giving ALL SDs a bad name and that is not fair. 

And that woman should some how be prosecuted for impersonating a SD if possible.


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## Freestep

I never liked Bernese Mountain dogs. I've only groomed two of them, and both were a pain in the butt... the male was one of the most neurotic dogs I've ever met--had to keep him muzzled the whole time I groomed him, and he fought everything tooth and nail. He almost acted like he had neurological damage, the way he would tense up, stiffen, and get that glazed look in his eye every time I touched him. The female wasn't as aggressive, but she was always anxious and uncooperative.

Maybe most of them are nice and I just got unlucky with two bad ones, but I wouldn't trust a Berner as far as I could throw it.

Laharge, I hope your friend recovers okay and does not have permanent damage. It sounds like the dog's owner is going to get sued big time; not only for the dog attack, but for trying to pass off her unstable pet as a "service dog".


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## msvette2u

I am sure it's bad breeding - I was just looking up the breed and there's a huge "market" for them so puppy mills churn them out and sell them in pet stores.

We brought Ruger to a parade yesterday and other than being excited and happy to see other dogs, he ignored almost everyone and everything. It was kind of ironic that I read this thread yesterday because I saw a Bernese there at the parade and the people asked us to move (we were standing near the top of a stairway) so they could get by with their dog. There would have been plenty of room except they could not control their dog at all, and it was a purebred dog. The people were telling the person in the parking lot (paid parking) they were going to go home and drop off their dog because he was such a nervous wreck and "handling this all badly". 

Ruger was chill as a popsicle. But we've been exposing him since we got him. Chances are that Bernese had never left his yard since he was a puppy. Sad.


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## GermanShepherds6800

yes, in recent years they have become an over bred poorly bred product. Anytime this happens just like it did in the OES and dals and every other breed you get more bad spooky dogs than good ones out in public.


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## msvette2u

Well you have to factor in owners who shouldn't own a plant, but somehow have the money to buy a "cool looking dog".


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## GermanShepherds6800

to true sadly it is to true


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## Stella's Mom

LARHAGE said:


> Oh My God!!! I was at a tack store where my best friend works, this man and woman come in with a HUGE Bernese Mountain Dog with an orange vest that says " Don't pet". The man asks my friend for help with a saddle and my friend starts to show him some, I go and wait at her desk and the woman walks over to my friends desk and starts to ask me about the dog pictures on the desk and wall, my friend has a beautiful red/black Showline that she competes in Obedience with and is doing great with, the lady says " Oh I don't trust Shepherds, they are unpredictable, lol!!! I tell her they are simply put the best dogs in the world and of course show her a picture of my Gavin, she than walks over to her friend looking at saddles and the dog lays down completely blocking the aisle through the saddles, my friend asks if she can move the dog and she says " Oh just step over him'' she does and walks approx. 2 feet more to get another saddle when all of a sudden the dog jumps up grabs her by the arm from behind and drags her down to the floor where he goes after her legs and arms growling like a lion, I ran to my friend with a lead rope to try to spank him off of her, the two could not pull him off, a fireman was shopping with his wife and literally lifted the dog up by the collar, my friend was bleeding profusely, an ambulance was called and my friend was rushed to E
> Emergency.
> 
> I just got back from taking her home and feeding her dogs and horses for her, she has severe injuries and a severed artery in her arm, I did get to ask the woman what kind of service dog was this, in other words what did it assist with, she didn't appear to have any handicaps , at least not visible. I never got an answer, I really think Service Dogs should be regulated as these kind of things are going to ruin it for real Service Dogs, there were a lot of people there that were screaming in shock and horror, not good for the public perception.
> 
> I did say to the lady, I guess German Shepherds aren't the only unpredictable dogs huh?


Thankfully there was an off duty fireman there that understood that the level of blood coming from your friend was an arterial bleed. She could have bled out rather quickly given her weight of 115 pounds.

Unbelievable...how sad. I have never been attacked by a dog and I could only imagine the damage a 100+ pound dog could do to a slight woman.

She is lucky to have you there to help and assist her in the care of her animals.

I hope she recovers quickly.


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## KZoppa

I dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet but did it register that just because the dog is wearing a vest that says DO NOT PET that they arent trying to pass him off as a service dog but simply dont want people to pet him because there IS a reason to avoid him? Yes it was stupid how the situation happened but i've seen several dogs wearing vests that said do not pet. Not because they were service dogs but because they were in training and the handler didnt want the distractions of people constantly asking to pet the dog. I know berners are sweet, gentle dogs at heart so there had to be something seriously wrong mentally going on for one to behave that way. 

I'm sorry your friend was hurt and i pray for a speedy recovery. Thats tough.


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## Chicagocanine

I hope that if the dog is returned to these people that something is done at least to prevent them from bringing this dog in public again. They should be charged with something although I am not sure what legally could apply here.



LARHAGE said:


> That's what I fear Nancy, I asked the owner of the Berm while we were waiting for the paramedics if the dog had ever acted like this, and like I said I know not every handicap is visible, but this was a HUGE dog and it obviously was not regular type Service Dog, and I see A LOT of Service Dogs on campus working at a University, they all are obvious assistance dogs


Just wanted to say that not all disabilities are visible. A person may look like they do not need a service dog but that does not mean anything. The dog is not necessarily a cue either, I know someone with an English Mastiff service dog, and you would not know from looking at her that she needs a service dog but she does. I also know of Bernese Mountain Dogs who are service dogs, some people use larger breeds because they need mobility assistance.


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## GermanShepherds6800

> I dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet but did it register that just because the dog is wearing a vest that says DO NOT PET that they arent trying to pass him off as a service dog but simply dont want people to pet him because there IS a reason to avoid him?


1. the dog did not attack over being pet.


2. The poster has said she asked what services the dog provides this owner to which they would not answer as well as this store does NOT allow pet dogs.


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## doggiedad

i wish your friend a quick and healthy recovery.


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## JakodaCD OA

this is just awful Sounds like the people "knew" he wasn't right just by avoiding to answer your questions.??

Masi has this vest









I would NEVER pass her off as a service dog, and I wouldn't have her laying in the middle of an aisle in some store and tell a stranger to just "step over her"..Heck I wouldn't do in public!

It sounds like these people shouldn't own a dog, let alone a dangerous one(

I hope your friend will be ok.


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## KZoppa

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> 1. the dog did not attack over being pet.
> 
> 
> 2. The poster has said she asked what services the dog provides this owner to which they would not answer as well as this store does NOT allow pet dogs.


 
oh i'm aware of the situation. I did read the post all the way through. Just because the dog didnt attack over being pet doesnt mean anything. She invaded the dogs space, even with the owner saying to just step over the dog WHILE THE DOG IS WEARING THIS DO NOT PET VEST! Sorry but someone should have insisted the dog be moved instead of blocking the path. Not saying the one who was attacked was at fault but generally do not pet also means keep your distance. But maybe its just me. And given the store doesnt allow pet dogs and the handlers refused to answer the question people are allowed to ask would have been a red flag and they would have been asked to leave. 

and no i havent read the entire thread. i was merely pointing out my peice from the initial post i read. too many red flags that should have been addressed and the incident wouldnt likely have happened. Just my opinion.


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## LARHAGE

The lady had stated the dog was a Service Dog and not in training, she asked my friend to step over it so I would think that she thought it was okay, and we watched the TV monitor this morning at the store and the weird thing is the attack was actually several seconds after my friend stepped over him, she was a couple of feet away and reaching up to get a saddle off a rack and he grabbed her right under her butt on the upper thigh, she turns to face him and he grabs her arm dragging her down and onto the floor where he goes for her back, she puts her arm up to protect her face and he grabs her arm and starts to shake her, all the while the owners are pulling on the leash and I'm trying to get it off by hitting it on the back with a rope, than the fireman just grabs him and hoists his head up in the air and spins him the other direction, there were so many people trying to get the dog but the space was narrow, maybe 2 feet as it's just aisles of saddles and saddles on the wall, it was mayhem watching everything on tape, the owners of the store are not dog people, they had Toy Poodles for years, but the owners wife is terrified of large dogs, I used to work there as well and on occasion would bring my JRT for visits, and they do love Gavin, but they have had a lot of legal problems with people and their dogs . This no doubt is the worse dog attack at this store, the store also provides dog food and supplies, it's a real neat store, that is family run and this was awful to have happen here, all the employees were just so afraid for my friend seeing the extent of her injuries. I can't think of a person who deserved this less than her, she has spent her whole life rescuing and rehoming stray dogs and cats, it's just awful, her arm looks absolutely horrible, swollen and torn, she sees an Orthopedic specialist tomorrow.


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## onyx'girl

The owner never attempted to get the dog under control, just pulling on the leash(which probably made him hold all the more) Wow, that is sad. 
I sure hope she recovers with no complications, prayers of healing for her, sounds like she has a long road to recovery.


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## dazedtrucker

I just don't know about Berners. We had 2 when I was a young child. 1 was the sweetest dog ever (i even dressed her as a horse and rider and won a costume contest), the other was so unpredictibly psycho she was put down before she was 2.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think it's good that this was on tape for future reference..so it sounds like it wasn't the fact she stepped over him, he just went for her

I have a friend who's had 3 BMD's, the first one was a fantastic dog, the second two, not so much they are big powerful dogs should they so choose..

I agree, sounds like she has a long road ahead of her


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## e.rigby

KZoppa said:


> oh i'm aware of the situation. I did read the post all the way through. Just because the dog didnt attack over being pet doesnt mean anything. She invaded the dogs space, even with the owner saying to just step over the dog WHILE THE DOG IS WEARING THIS DO NOT PET VEST! Sorry but someone should have insisted the dog be moved instead of blocking the path. Not saying the one who was attacked was at fault but generally do not pet also means keep your distance. But maybe its just me. And given the store doesnt allow pet dogs and the handlers refused to answer the question people are allowed to ask would have been a red flag and they would have been asked to leave.
> 
> and no i havent read the entire thread. i was merely pointing out my peice from the initial post i read. too many red flags that should have been addressed and the incident wouldnt likely have happened. Just my opinion.


Even with the vest saying 'do not pet' ... it is not acceptable for the owners to have such a dog out in public and not be hyper aware of what it is doing. I tend to stay a good distance away from SD or even working dogs -- I don't want to be a distraction. However, this dog was in a store that 1. didn't allow dogs and 2. was being passed off as a SD. It would be assumed that this dog would behave well enough to not pose a threat while in public. The bulk (if not all) of the responsibility and thus fault lies on the owners. 

If I'm out working an aggressive dog, I may get annoyed that people are careless and don't bother to give me space, but that does not give me the right to NOT intervene and ensure my dog is no threat to the other people/dogs in the environment. If that means throwing myself between the dog and the person or the dog and the other dog -- so be it. When you have an animal that is going to be reactive, it is your responsibility to make sure people/dogs don't get hurt -- not theirs. Otherwise, don't take the dog out in public.


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## BlackPuppy

So, the woman had nothing to say except, "stay calm"? I hope your friend sues her, or something. I don't know how insurance works in this case, but it sounds like your friend has some serious permanent injuries.


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## LARHAGE

Yeah, me and my friend were trying to figure out what set it off, we both have had dogs our whole lives and I feel very comfortable saying she speaks dog, she's wondering if the dog didn't react to her reaching up and bringing a saddle down off the rack, we can't see any other reason, he just jumps up and launches at her, the insurance company for the store notified her and the police report pretty much has everything down, there were a lot of witnesses who came forth and to a person they all state it was an unprovoked attack.


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## Freestep

LARHAGE said:


> the weird thing is the attack was actually several seconds after my friend stepped over him, she was a couple of feet away and reaching up to get a saddle off a rack and he grabbed her right under her butt on the upper thigh, she turns to face him and he grabs her arm dragging her down and onto the floor where he goes for her back, she puts her arm up to protect her face and he grabs her arm and starts to shake her


 That's even worse. It's bad enough that a so called "service dog" would attack someone for stepping over him, but at least there's a trigger you could have pointed to. The fact that such a savage attack came several seconds afterward, out of the blue, suggests the dog is not simply dominant-aggressive, he just plain has a screw loose. Totally unpredictable. He should be put down.

I'm glad you have the attack on tape, this will help ensure justice.


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## DharmasMom

Just out of curiousity, I am wondering if the store insurance or workman's comp would cover your friend. Since the dog was allowed in as a "service dog" and she was injured while doing her job, I wonder if she is covered. Especially for time she will miss work.


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## NancyJ

You know I guess maybe it would cover that but workmens comp does NOT cover full wages and it should be MORE than full wages. What about all the things she cannot do for herself now that friends are doing. What about pain and suffering. Unless this dog has a stellar history and something whacko just happened (like a brain tumor or something) then this is a case where they SHOULD be held fully accountable. JMO.


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## Jax08

:thumbup: Nancy


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## DharmasMom

jocoyn said:


> You know I guess maybe it would cover that but workmens comp does NOT cover full wages and it should be MORE than full wages. What about all the things she cannot do for herself now that friends are doing. What about pain and suffering. Unless this dog has a stellar history and something whacko just happened (like a brain tumor or something) then this is a case where they SHOULD be held fully accountable. JMO.



I fully agree with you. They should be held accountable. But we all know that law suits aren't settled in a week. It could take months or years to see any money from the owner's and what if they don't have any? You can't get blood from a turnip. If they already have no assets to take, even garnishing wages from a paycheck may only amount to a small amount over a long period of time. That is why I am wondering if the store's insurance or workman's comp would get her help now.

But despite all of that, I personally would like to see the woman held legally accountable and prosecuted for impersonating a SD to begin with.


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## selzer

The store insurance can fight with the owner of the dog to pay. I think they will require the employee to sue the owner of the dog, not sure. Workman's Compensation is a benefit. It is not a given. Many small businesses do not provide the benefit. So if you are injured on the job, you have to actually use your insurance or sue the company and the company's insurance would have to cover it. Workman's comp cases can take a long time too.

Except that the attack happened while she was working, I do not see how the establishment was at fault. Their insurance should not take a hit for this. The owner of the dog in question is responsible. If they do not have the money to cover it, no homeowner's insurance policy, unfortunately, your friend may be out of luck. 

And, it sucks but the system is sometimes very slow.


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## Konotashi

DharmasMom said:


> Just out of curiousity, I am wondering if the store insurance or workman's comp would cover your friend. Since the dog was allowed in as a "service dog" and she was injured while doing her job, I wonder if she is covered. Especially for time she will miss work.


How is the store to prove that it's not a service dog? Given that no 'official' papers or licenses are actually required (I don't think), there was really no way to tell if the dog was really a SD or not. It had the vest, there was really nothing they could do. If someone comes in with a REAL service dog and they kicked them out, couldn't the owner sue the store for that, since they're necessary 'medical equipment?'


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## e.rigby

Even though to be a Service dog the animal doesn't need to be licensed... to HAVE a Service dog, typically one has to be 'prescribed' or at least recommended by ones doctor. I'm not exactly sure what the laws are on this... but if it's going to be an official service dog, there's got to be a documented medical reason -- so if the case is taken to court these records will be subpoenad.


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## Konotashi

e.rigby said:


> Even though to be a Service dog the animal doesn't need to be licensed... to HAVE a Service dog, typically one has to be 'prescribed' or at least recommended by ones doctor. I'm not exactly sure what the laws are on this... but if it's going to be an official service dog, there's got to be a documented medical reason -- so if the case is taken to court these records will be subpoenad.


I wasn't necessarily speaking for this dog in particular, but just if someone did bring an actual SD in and they tried to kick them out. (Since someone before suggested that they should have or could have kicked the dog out).


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## msvette2u

> Even with the vest saying 'do not pet' ... it is not acceptable for the owners to have such a dog out in public


Ditto - I've always assumed those "do not pet" aren't there as a cutsie way of saying "I'm vicious" but rather "I'm so friendly I will become distracted by people petting me and then can't do my job"!! "Do not pet" doesn't equate "I'm dangerous, don't come near me"! If that were the case they need to say "beware of dog" rather than "service dog".


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## Konotashi

msvette2u said:


> Ditto - I've always assumed those "do not pet" aren't there as a cutsie way of saying "I'm vicious" but rather "I'm so friendly I will become distracted by people petting me and then can't do my job"!! "Do not pet" doesn't equate "I'm dangerous, don't come near me"! If that were the case they need to say "beware of dog" rather than "service dog".


I agree. If you take an aggressive dog out in public... wait, stop me right there. You shouldn't take an aggressive dog out in public. Especially disguised as a SD.


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## e.rigby

Konotashi said:


> I wasn't necessarily speaking for this dog in particular, but just if someone did bring an actual SD in and they tried to kick them out. (Since someone before suggested that they should have or could have kicked the dog out).


Businesses are allowed to ask certain questions -- such as what tasks does your dog preform (or some such). So if they started asking such questions, perhaps more would be found out as 'fake' SD? Also, if the dog is causing a disruption, or the owners aren't handling the dog well they can be asked to leave. I don't know how particular they can be... but I think having the dog take up and entire aisle in a store is a bit inappropriate :/

I agree it's not fair to put people on the spot and ask specifics about their disabilities... but if you need a SD, you should be expected to explain something! 

Maybe Doctors could give a card or something to a person to state briefly that they are in need of a Service Animal... that would solve all of this without going into any detail as to why they need the animal or what specific training the dog has had...


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## Konotashi

e.rigby said:


> Businesses are allowed to ask certain questions -- such as what tasks does your dog preform (or some such). So if they started asking such questions, perhaps more would be found out as 'fake' SD? Also, if the dog is causing a disruption, or the owners aren't handling the dog well they can be asked to leave. I don't know how particular they can be... but I think having the dog take up and entire aisle in a store is a bit inappropriate :/
> 
> I agree it's not fair to put people on the spot and ask specifics about their disabilities... but if you need a SD, you should be expected to explain something!
> 
> Maybe Doctors could give a card or something to a person to state briefly that they are in need of a Service Animal... that would solve all of this without going into any detail as to why they need the animal or what specific training the dog has had...


I think it would be easy for someone to lie about having epilepsy. It's not something you can visibly see on a person, and the dog doesn't always have to be 'working' per say. The dog just needs to alert the person when they're about to have a seizure. Easy enough to lie about it. If someone was really determined to fake their SD, they could say something like, "The dog alerts me to oncoming medical happenings," or something like that. :/

I think there needs to be something, like you said, such as a card that a doctor gives saying they need the dog. It's like if you go get a drug test for a job and you have Vicodin or something in your system that was prescribed to you, you don't get in trouble. But you have to PROVE it was prescribed to you.


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## msvette2u

Konotashi said:


> I agree. If you take an aggressive dog out in public... wait, stop me right there. You shouldn't take an aggressive dog out in public. Especially disguised as a SD.



Slightly OT here, but even police dogs, I mean the ones who take people down, those aren't dogs you just want to waltz up to and pet. However, working at the PD for 3yrs, I was often exposed to police K9s. And every one of those I worked around were able to be petted if you wanted to, once the handler gave the okay. 

To think of a vested SD or SD in training attacking someone to the point of almost killing them, which easily could have occurred given the nature of this attack and subsequent arterial injury, well, I can't even wrap my mind around it!! It's crap like this that will make it illegal soon to have an SD, all because of idiots and their unstable dogs or simply their pets (not in any way an SD) they feel they must tote around...oh, SMH...


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## KZoppa

e.rigby said:


> Even with the vest saying 'do not pet' ... it is not acceptable for the owners to have such a dog out in public and not be hyper aware of what it is doing. I tend to stay a good distance away from SD or even working dogs -- I don't want to be a distraction. However, this dog was in a store that 1. didn't allow dogs and 2. was being passed off as a SD. It would be assumed that this dog would behave well enough to not pose a threat while in public. The bulk (if not all) of the responsibility and thus fault lies on the owners.
> 
> If I'm out working an aggressive dog, I may get annoyed that people are careless and don't bother to give me space, but that does not give me the right to NOT intervene and ensure my dog is no threat to the other people/dogs in the environment. If that means throwing myself between the dog and the person or the dog and the other dog -- so be it. When you have an animal that is going to be reactive, it is your responsibility to make sure people/dogs don't get hurt -- not theirs. Otherwise, don't take the dog out in public.


 
and i KNOW that. The fact of the matter is, if someone tells me to just step over their dog and i dont KNOW that dog, i'm still going to insist they move the dog. Plain and simple. I agree the fault lies with the owners of the dog but people can still be proactive to hopefully avoid situations like this one. Dog people should have the common sense, regardless of whether they're given permission to do something or not. Its like an owner saying "oh yeah! you can get right down in their face and they'll be fine with you!" and then the dog isnt fine with it. A stranger just invaded their space. This dog was a walking time bomb, obviously. Unprovoked attack. 

Even with the do not pet vest on, there is nothing for certain the owners even knew the dog would react or behave in such a way. Least nothing admitted. Fact of the matter is, EVERYONE should have been paying close attention to the dog. Whether he was aggressive or just in training or didnt need distractions doesnt matter. The whole situation probably could have been prevented had the friend insisted the dog move so she didnt have to step over the dog because one, thats just rude to have to do that, and two, you dont step over a dog you dont know and three, the owners should have definitely been paying close attention to the dog anyway. 

Honestly, without seeing the footage, its hard to tell for sure any potential causes. As mentioned, it very well could have been the friend lifting over her head to get the saddle. We know just towering over a dog can be taken as a threat. Still no reason for what happened.


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## Chicagocanine

Konotashi said:


> If someone was really determined to fake their SD, they could say something like, "The dog alerts me to oncoming medical happenings," or something like that. :/


Actually I know people who have legitimate service dogs and will say something similar to that if asked by a store employee. There is no need for the store to know what the indvidual's medical condition is and many people are not comfortable talking about their medical conditions to strangers and going into detail about what their service dog does would mean telling about their medical problems.




Konotashi said:


> I think there needs to be something, like you said, such as a card that a doctor gives saying they need the dog. It's like if you go get a drug test for a job and you have Vicodin or something in your system that was prescribed to you, you don't get in trouble. But you have to PROVE it was prescribed to you.


 I am pretty sure the ADA does not require anything like this, and you don't need a prescription to have a service dog* at all. It would be a good thing to discuss with a doctor first and to have something like that documented just in case for legal purposes, but I do not think it is required. Anyway having a card from a doctor would only show that the doctor thinks a person should get a service dog. I don't think a doctor can necessarily certify that the person is legally disabled (under the ADA) or that the dog they take in public is actually a trained service dog.

*An exception is for flying, the rules are different and they can require a doctor's letter for psychiatric service dogs for flying.


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## msvette2u

> The whole situation probably could have been prevented had the friend insisted the dog move


The owner stated the dog could be stepped over, so one would presume he has been stepped over before with no issues. And the friend did ask the dog be moved, at which point the owner of the dog (pretty much) refused to move the dog, insisting instead the woman step over him.
You should be able to step over a dog with it's owner nearby insisting that the dog can, in fact, be stepped over safely. 



> Honestly, without seeing the footage, its hard to tell for sure any potential causes.


They did see the footage, and stated it didn't seem there was a cause, since it was after the owner of the store/attack victim moved away from the dog and down the aisle.

I might add, and it's been brought up already, that the level of this attack is unreal and quite certainly out of line even had the dog felt slighted that someone stepped over it. I could see a growl or lip curl _possibly while being stepped over_...but a severed artery!? Really??
I'm just thankful it was a full grown adult (albeit a small one) and not a child, as a child would have certainly been killed.


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## KZoppa

Questions allowed are Is that a service dog? I believe one can even ask what taskes the dog performs in the service dog capacity BUT they have to be actual taskes such as picking up a dropped bottle of medication or Leaning on the person to provide for balance when balance is lost or notifying the handler of a seizure or low blood sugar and laying over them in the event of a seizure for some stabilization or in the case of low blood sugar, some dogs will become really annoying to those surrounding to get help. My grandmothers corgi is VERY insistent to those around when my grandma's blood sugar drops really low. Chloe becomes the most annoying dog ever to get attention NOW so my grandma's blood sugar can get brought back under control. They're training her to open the fridge and bring the medicine bag with the insulin and syringes to my grandma.


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## Konotashi

Chicagocanine said:


> Actually I know people who have legitimate service dogs and will say something similar to that if asked by a store employee. There is no need for the store to know what the indvidual's medical condition is and many people are not comfortable talking about their medical conditions to strangers and going into detail about what their service dog does would mean telling about their medical problems.


That's why I put that. I figure most people would say something like that rather than, "I have epilepsy and the dog tells me when I'm going to have a seizure."


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## e.rigby

Chicagocanine said:


> I am pretty sure the ADA does not require anything like this, and you don't need a prescription to have a service dog* at all. It would be a good thing to discuss with a doctor first and to have something like that documented just in case for legal purposes, but I do not think it is required. Anyway having a card from a doctor would only show that the doctor thinks a person should get a service dog. I don't think a doctor can necessarily certify that the person is legally disabled (under the ADA) or that the dog they take in public is actually a trained service dog.
> 
> *An exception is for flying, the rules are different and they can require a doctor's letter for psychiatric service dogs for flying.


How do I qualify for a service dog? | Service Dog Central

"In the United States, people qualify to use a service animal when they meet either federal or state legal definitions of "disability." This definition varies from state to state and is usually found in the state's human rights code."

I would thus assume a doctor is going to be able to tell you whether or not you are disabled. If a doctor doesn't think you're disabled (under definition of the law) then you have no right to a SD. I should also include psychiatrist as doctor so as to include PSD. So, if a card from a doctor was required, it wouldn't necessarily have to state whether or not the doctor thought the person needed a service animal, rather, whether or not they were disabled and/or qualified to have one.

The fact is... the guidelines are way too lax. There are way too many ways around them. Sadly, I think there needs to be more regulations -- what happened to the op's friend is just one of the many reasons why. Does anyone remember the Rottie owned by Africa's "Dog Whisperer" that attacked that little kid in the mall? He, too, claimed his dog was a SD.


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## e.rigby

msvette2u said:


> I might add, and it's been brought up already, that the level of this attack is unreal and quite certainly out of line even had the dog felt slighted that someone stepped over it. I could see a growl or lip curl _possibly while being stepped over_...but a severed artery!? Really??
> I'm just thankful it was a full grown adult (albeit a small one) and not a child, as a child would have certainly been killed.


THIS. For the dog to have been so close to killing this person, that's just unreal.


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## kiwilrdg

The whole situation probably could have been prevented had the friend insisted the dog move


> The owner stated the dog could be stepped over, so one would presume he has been stepped over before with no issues.


The owner assuming that the person who is asking that the dog move is just as bad as questioning if the dog is a service dog. The person who asks for the dog to be moved could have leg or balance problems. If someone has a disability that requires a service dog they should know that there are times that you do not want to talk about your own problems and should not put others in a situation where they are required to do the same.

Even if the person is not disabled, the person with the dog should at least move the dog the same as stepping out of the way or having children move so people could pass (even though many people don't even do that today.)

Service dogs are to grant fair access, not to extend rights to the point of requiring others without SDs to lose access.


----------



## Mrs.K

JakodaCD OA said:


> this is just awful Sounds like the people "knew" he wasn't right just by avoiding to answer your questions.??
> 
> Masi has this vest
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would NEVER pass her off as a service dog, and I wouldn't have her laying in the middle of an aisle in some store and tell a stranger to just "step over her"..Heck I wouldn't do in public!
> 
> It sounds like these people shouldn't own a dog, let alone a dangerous one(
> 
> I hope your friend will be ok.


I have the SAR in training vest and I'd never have her lay in an aisle as well. If she does lay in and aisle I tell her to get up. 

The question is if they actually knew that their dog had that kind of dangerous potential in him...


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'm betting they did, probably not to the extent of this unprovoked attack, it seems they were pretty evasive when Larhage asked them questions.


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## crackem

KZoppa said:


> Questions allowed are Is that a service dog? I believe one can even ask what taskes the dog performs in the service dog capacity BUT they have to be actual taskes such as picking up a dropped bottle of medication or Leaning on the person to provide for balance when balance is lost or notifying the handler of a seizure or low blood sugar and laying over them in the event of a seizure for some stabilization or in the case of low blood sugar, some dogs will become really annoying to those surrounding to get help. My grandmothers corgi is VERY insistent to those around when my grandma's blood sugar drops really low. Chloe becomes the most annoying dog ever to get attention NOW so my grandma's blood sugar can get brought back under control. They're training her to open the fridge and bring the medicine bag with the insulin and syringes to my grandma.


why are they training to bring insulin when her blood sugar is low?


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## LaRen616

Wow, I am so sorry to hear about your friend. It's always terrible to hear about a dog attack. I hope she recovers quickly and completely. 

I am shocked to hear some people say that they have had bad experiences with BMDs. I have met a couple of people that have/had BMDs and they always spoke so wonderfully of them. The one bad thing I remember hearing is that they eat to much. I have however, only met 1 BMD in person and it was a couple of weeks ago. She was GORGEOUS, a very well behaved 1 year old female named Callie. She was very sweet and she was very gentle with my puppy Malice. She left a good impression with me, I really liked her alot, I read a book when I was younger that had a BMD on the cover and the dog ended up passing away in the book, I've liked BMDs ever since so seeing one in person was a really neat moment for me. o) I wouldn't mind having one at some point in my life.​


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## Jax08

KZoppa said:


> Questions allowed are Is that a service dog? I believe one can even ask what taskes the dog performs in the service dog capacity BUT they have to be actual taskes such as picking up a dropped bottle of medication or Leaning on the person to provide for balance when balance is lost or notifying the handler of a seizure or low blood sugar and laying over them in the event of a seizure for some stabilization or in the case of low blood sugar, some dogs will become really annoying to those surrounding to get help. My grandmothers corgi is VERY insistent to those around when my grandma's blood sugar drops really low. Chloe becomes the most annoying dog ever to get attention NOW so my grandma's blood sugar can get brought back under control. They're training her to open the fridge and bring the medicine bag with the insulin and syringes to my grandma.





crackem said:


> why are they training to bring insulin when her blood sugar is low?


Good Question!! Does she have sugar pills in that bag as well?


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## Holmeshx2

Ok I am by no means an expert on service dogs but have done some reading and remember reading awhile back that while someone can pass their dog off as a SD and no one can really question much besides what the dog does that if something happens they can be taken to court and the judge will require them to show a ton of proof that the dog is a SD what it does why the person needs a SD and even if the person has something from their doctor stating they need one that the judge has final say on whether or not the person is truly disabled so the friend or company can definitely take it to court and make her prove she's disabled and requires the dog.

I agree the laws kinda stink for SD and those that need them. As it stands people are ruining it for those that need a SD and enforcing anything further to stop the people from passing off unstable dogs as SD would harm those that really need SD's and possibly prevent many of them from being able to have one.

One thing I would think that would at least help would be requiring all SD's even those owner trained to pass a basic CGC and then stores can ask for that proof so they can show that the dog at least has basic manners in public or maybe something similar to a cgc but with a few extra tests like stepping over the dog or something. If the person needs the dog in public it should have enough control to do a CGC IMO and then presenting that to a business isn't disclosing anything about your disability just that the dog should be fairly well behaved. Even if someone passes off a fake SD they would still have a CGC and hopefully cut down on some of these attacks.

I really hope your friend is doing better and so sorry this happened.

I'm also sorry to make light of the situation a bit but am I the only one that laughed that after all of this she turned to the owner and got the sarcastic dig in on her comment about the shepherds?


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## BlackPuppy

Holmeshx2 said:


> One thing I would think that would at least help would be requiring all SD's even those owner trained to pass a basic CGC and then stores can ask for that proof so they can show that the dog at least has basic manners in public or maybe something similar to a cgc but with a few extra tests like stepping over the dog or something.


That's what I was thinking. But a test more like the ATTS one. I'm taking my youngster Saturday to be tested for that.

Description of the Temperament Test | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.


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## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> Good Question!! Does she have sugar pills in that bag as well?



You're right...the dog should be bringing juice or glucose in the event of low blood sugar!
Is the dog trained to recognize too high of BS, so brings insulin?
Also does the dog actually diagnose either too low or too high of BS?
If it's bringing insulin to Grandma and her BS is already too low, it could kill her, meaning it misdiagnosed the condition...??


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## Lilie

I am so sorry your friend was injured so badly. I wish her a fast recovery. 

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me. My dog isn't a vicious dog. My dog isn't a service dog. My dog is a dog. I would NEVER allow him to block an isle. I wouldn NEVER allow a stranger to step over him. My first concern would be to worry that the person may step on him. Second, I'd be concerned the person might slip and fall . It is only common sense that tells me to move my dog into a safe location for all.


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## GermanShepherds6800

It was the girl reaching up to saddle that triggered the attack people not stepping over it that action was gone and past before the attack. Without knowing the owners or dog this is pure speculation but what if the people correct this dog with something they reach up high to get? If they keep say anything could even be a fly swatter up high and they beat the tar out of the dog it could trigger this response of someone reaching up to get something. If the dog was bothered by her stepping over she would have grabbed he in that moment in that action or as she finished stepping over IMO.


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## KZoppa

crackem said:


> why are they training to bring insulin when her blood sugar is low?


 
they are training to bring insulin when its time to take her insulin shot. My grandma had to have surgery on her ankle and she's still basically in rehab and cant move around as easily as she could before she broke her ankle. My grandma's blood sugar drops quickly sometimes. They arent training her to bring insulin when her blood sugar drops. They're just training her to bring it when its needed so its easier on my grandma. Chloe has already started alerting to a blood sugar drop with enough time for my grandma to get some milk and a spoonful of peanut butter to help combat the sugar drop.


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## Jax08

I agree GSD6800. A dog relates within 2-3 seconds. It sounds like that time had passed and the dog reacted to something else. We have a Boxer that when you step over her, she immediately scrambles. There is no delay. If the dog was going to react to her stepping over him, IME, it would have been instantly, not seconds later. 

Regardless of what triggered it, though, the fact is the dog viciously attacked this woman while her back was to the dog. Per a previous post, the video shows that the dog attacked by grabbing her butt/thigh and dragging her down. If this had been a 5 year old child, it wouldn't have been the ambulance that was called.


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## KZoppa

Jax08 said:


> Good Question!! Does she have sugar pills in that bag as well?


 
i dont know what they're called but she gets them in the medicine section at walmart where the diabetes supplies are. I guess they're like sugar pills. She can keep them in her purse or pocket or whatever is easier but she keeps em in the pouch in the fridge with her insulin supplies. They kinda look like really big antacid tablets? does that make sense?


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## gsdraven

KZoppa said:


> i dont know what they're called but she gets them in the medicine section at walmart where the diabetes supplies are. I guess they're like sugar pills.


Glucouse tablets.


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## Jax08

KZoppa said:


> i dont know what they're called but she gets them in the medicine section at walmart where the diabetes supplies are. I guess they're like sugar pills. She can keep them in her purse or pocket or whatever is easier but she keeps em in the pouch in the fridge with her insulin supplies. They kinda look like really big antacid tablets? does that make sense?


I think so. My son works with a guy that has low sugar. He's taken off to speed down to his house when he can't be reached by phone. Twice an ambulance had to be called.  Low sugar is just as scarey as high. I don't think people take it seriously enough. I know my son's co-worker wasn't! By the time they realize their sugar is low, it's usually to late to do anything because they are becoming 'incoherent' for a lack of a better term. He says he knows when his sugar is low but but the time he gets to the food, he has forgotten why he needs to take it and will fight people how are trying to get him to drink.


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## KZoppa

msvette2u said:


> You're right...the dog should be bringing juice or glucose in the event of low blood sugar!
> Is the dog trained to recognize too high of BS, so brings insulin?
> Also does the dog actually diagnose either too low or too high of BS?
> If it's bringing insulin to Grandma and her BS is already too low, it could kill her, meaning it misdiagnosed the condition...??


 
okay... my grandma is an insulin dependent diabetic. Chloe is the corgi they adopted from a friend. She isnt TRAINED to do anything but she does. They are working on teaching her to bring the insulin pouch with her needles and things from the fridge to her. *As i havent lived back home since 2007, i dont know the full extent of what goes on*. Chloe reacts and starts getting very pushy and obnoxious when my grandma's blood sugar starts dropping before it registers with my grandma. Chloe knows there is a drop BEFORE my grandma does because of a scent change. She has never acknowledged a high blood sugar that i'm aware of. In the pouch Chloe is supposed to get are i guess they're called glucose tablets. She gets them in the diabetes section at walmart. When Chloe starts reacting, it gives my grandma time to get a glass of milk and a spoonful of peanut butter to combat the low blood sugar. As i personally do not suffer from diabetes but the majority of women in my family do, i do have SOME clue about the disease since i'm already genetically prone to getting it. I can only go on what my grandma is telling me WHEN I TALK TO HER ON THE PHONE OR TALK TO MY MOM!!!! Now can you guys back off? Or do you want my grandma's phone number to call and question her about how they handle things? Chloe brings what she is being taught to bring. And at least my grandma has someone who can alert her before it becomes a serious problem so she can help herself. In case you've missed it, some dogs alert to problems on their own without training. Since realizing Chloe alerted to a problem ON HER OWN, they've begun working on training her to do more with the help of my uncle and his dog trainer friend. Any other problems with my family life back home? Do i need to go visit and get a video of the happenings and the contents of the medical pouch? Or should i just invoke the SD rights for my grandmother and tell everyone to back off? Chloe is being trained to do certain taskes. What those taskes are, honestly are none of anyone's business but those she works with and comes in contact with. Given other problems BEYOND being a diabetic like the surgery on her ankle which is a weak ankle and an already bad knee on top of depression, Chloe helps. In what way she helps does not matter as long as she helps. And dont worry. my grandparents arent the type to take her out in public. She's a home life dog despite being friendly with people and other dogs. They just gave her a job with training since she placed herself in the job anyway soon after they adopted her.


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## gsdraven

Jax08 said:


> I think so. My son works with a guy that has low sugar. He's taken off to speed down to his house when he can't be reached by phone. Twice an ambulance had to be called.  Low sugar is just as scarey as high. I don't think people take it seriously enough. I know my son's co-worker wasn't! By the time they realize their sugar is low, it's usually to late to do anything because they are becoming 'incoherent' for a lack of a better term. He says he knows when his sugar is low but but the time he gets to the food, he has forgotten why he needs to take it and will fight people how are trying to get him to drink.


We have several diabetics in the family. In one family, 4 of the 7 kids are diabetic as well as the father. My Aunt scares me the most because she acts drunk when her blood sugar tanks so it's sometimes hard to tell. The last time it happened she was in the middle of coloring and highlighting my hair. Literally, half my head was in foils. Luckily, she decided to check her blood sugar when she went to get a glass of water because it was so low the meter couldn't read it.

Sorry for the hijack.


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## KZoppa

gsdraven said:


> Glucouse tablets.


 
Thank you jamie. I would know them if i saw them but because i dont actually use them, i dont ever remember what the heck they are. 





Jax08 said:


> I think so. My son works with a guy that has low sugar. He's taken off to speed down to his house when he can't be reached by phone. Twice an ambulance had to be called.  Low sugar is just as scarey as high. I don't think people take it seriously enough. I know my son's co-worker wasn't! By the time they realize their sugar is low, it's usually to late to do anything because they are becoming 'incoherent' for a lack of a better term. He says he knows when his sugar is low but but the time he gets to the food, he has forgotten why he needs to take it and will fight people how are trying to get him to drink.


 
Low blood sugar is terrifying. My grandma's sugar has been known to drop so quickly, even after eating sometimes.... not a fun thing. According to my mom though, since having Chloe and Chloe alerting my grandma her sugar is getting lower than is okay, she's not had any serious episodes and no ambulance has been called in MONTHS. Chloe alerts her soon enough someone can get her what she needs. She's not very old, mid 60's i believe. My grandpa, unfortunately is starting to show signs of alzheimers like his mother, so Chloe in their lives now... that little dog is a godsend. She helps them both immensely.


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## KZoppa

gsdraven said:


> We have several diabetics in the family. In one family, 4 of the 7 kids are diabetic as well as the father. My Aunt scares me the most because she acts drunk when her blood sugar tanks so it's sometimes hard to tell. The last time it happened she was in the middle of coloring and highlighting my hair. Literally, half my head was in foils. Luckily, she decided to check her blood sugar when she went to get a glass of water because it was so low the meter couldn't read it.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack.


 
thats probably the most scary! I had just gotten my drivers license and was home alone with my grandma when hers dropped like that. Dialed 911 and followed in the car. Couldnt find my cell phone so left one of those notes nobody can read because it looked like a doctor wrote it i was writing so fast. very bad day. next time she rode in the ambulance was when we found out she had some bleeding ulcers too. That woman is her own pharmacy with all the medications she has to take.


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## GermanShepherds6800

My friend that uses the service dog is because of low sugar and everything related here and how serious it is is very true. My friend stopped driving for several years because she gets like the drunk acting aunt and did not want to hurt anyone if it happened while driving. 


I agree if it had been a child there would have been a death, Jax. If that firefighter had not been there this friend even though an adult would have mostly likely died. Them pulling the leash back while canines sunk into this woman did not help and probably acerbated the ripping of her flesh and artery.


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## KZoppa

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> My friend that uses the service dog is because of low sugar and everything related here and how serious it is is very true. My friend stopped driving for several years because she gets like the drunk acting aunt and did not want to hurt anyone if it happened while driving.
> 
> 
> I agree if it had been a child there would have been a death, Jax. If that firefighter had not been there this friend even though an adult would have mostly likely died. Them pulling the leash back while canines sunk into this woman did not help and probably acerbated the ripping of her flesh and artery.


 
my grandma hasnt renewed her drivers license since i was learning to drive. I got my license and she never renewed hers. Mainly because they never had a car "safe" enough according to the DMV to drive but the only other option was my Xterra and thats too big for her lol. Now she just doesnt drive or care to. 

If it had been a child.... kids parents probably would have killed the dog on sight honestly just to get the dog off. Berners are good dogs. But like all dogs there are bad ones. Sadly this guy was one of them. 

Any updates on how the friend is doing today?


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## Chicagocanine

Jax08 said:


> I think so. My son works with a guy that has low sugar. He's taken off to speed down to his house when he can't be reached by phone. Twice an ambulance had to be called.  Low sugar is just as scarey as high. I don't think people take it seriously enough. I know my son's co-worker wasn't!


I totally agree that people need to take it seriously. A woman I knew (friend/coworker of my mom) died due to a low blood sugar incident. She was alone in her home at the time. I knew her because I had been trying to help her find a home for her dog at the time (incidentally I don't know what happened with the dog after that...)


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## Jax08

That's horrible.  I was sure that my son was going to go racing to his co-workers place only to find him dead. The last time, he did lose consciousness and his meds were locked in his truck. Luckily, they got there in time to call the ambulance. And he's had his meds adjusted since then.

OP- Sorry for the thread hijiack!! How is your friend doing today?


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## selzer

I think it may have bee a combination of the two things that caused the dog to react. Is it possible that the doggy-brain saw the individual pull a submissive act by stepping over the dog instead of making the dog move out of their way, and then saw the person still, obviously pretty close, raise up taller than his owner and try to bring down something? 

Who knows what was going on in the wacko brain of a dog that should not ever act with that measure of violence. I highly doubt this was his very first indication that he might tend toward aggression. 

I think that dog-people, that spend their time on internet chat rooms and such, might read a thing like this at some point, or just think about their own dogs, or just simply think it is a bad idea to step over top of the dog. I do not think anyone would think it a bad idea to try to lift down a saddle in the presence of an individual with a service dog.

Now, if it was you or me with our dog somewhere, you are trying to get to the next picnic table, my dog is in the way, you ask that I move the dog, I tell you to step over the dog, and you are going to back up and go around the picnic table to get where you want to be. You will realize that I am lazy and rude, may have raised my dog in a lazy or rude fashion, and arguing with me about it, or taking my word for it that the dog is safe enough, is probably not a good idea. 

But when people are claiming a dog is a service dog, it is a breed of dog known to be rather laid back, and the owners tell you that you can step over it, then maybe you feel a little less concerned about what the dog might do. But remove that part of the story completely. The employee, goes to pull down a saddle that the disabled person wants to see and the dog goes nutso and tries to eat her. Do stores have to train people how to properly question people with service dogs, how to act around the service dogs, how not to offend the people, but remain at a safe distance from the service dog? Or, should people who have a service dog get that service dog certified somehow and be certified themselves and able and knowledgeable enough to manage the dog properly in public? 

I do not know the answer. CGC might be a starting place, but it is not necessary for a dog to allow a stranger to step over them, or to allow a stranger to reach up in front of the dog to lift something down. If either or both of those actions cause the reaction, than the dog could have easily passed a CGC.

And I do not think that the purpose of the CGC is fulfilled if people think it a fitting test for a service dog in public. CGCs are a gateway for more training, they have a place. They pretty much say, good job, what a great start, not, now your dog is safe in all situations.


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## Chicagocanine

selzer said:


> I do not know the answer. CGC might be a starting place, but it is not necessary for a dog to allow a stranger to step over them, or to allow a stranger to reach up in front of the dog to lift something down. If either or both of those actions cause the reaction, than the dog could have easily passed a CGC.
> 
> And I do not think that the purpose of the CGC is fulfilled if people think it a fitting test for a service dog in public. CGCs are a gateway for more training, they have a place. They pretty much say, good job, what a great start, not, now your dog is safe in all situations.


There is already a type of test used for service dogs, called a Public Access Test. However this is NOT a (legal) requirement in any way to have a service dog or for a service dog to go out in public. I also think IIRC there are different versions of the test. It also is up to intepretation by the trainer or whoever is giving the test.

There are problems with the idea of REQUIRING something like a test for service dogs before they are allowed in public. How do you make sure everyone who needs a service dog has easy access to this test when they need it? Who decides which dogs pass the test or who is qualified to give the test? Who pays for the people to give the test? How would it be regulated? What about people who are on a limited income, or live in an outlying area and cannot travel? How do they get access to testing? And so on...


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## GSDElsa

One thing with the stepping over incident...

I think that perhaps one's natural instinct is to say "no, move the dog!" However, there was quite possibly a different dynamic going on...customer and employee. While this woman might have asked in every other instance to have the dog moved, this one time she didn't because of the "customer is always right." attitude. She might have subconciously felt akward insisting that the dog get moved.

And certainly in her shoes, I'm not sure I would have thought twice either having worked in an almost identical store (at least form the sounds of it).


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## selzer

I agree. But not just the customer is always right, but the customer is always right, they are disabled, this is a service dog. I probably would have stepped over the dog too if they are looking at a saddle, and said to. Of course, I get 1/2 of the saddle purchase so it is a major big deal for me. I want them to buy, I do not want to upset them with what they might perceive as an attitude, and I would WANT to accomadate someone who needs a dog.


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## Holmeshx2

selzer said:


> I do not know the answer. CGC might be a starting place, but it is not necessary for a dog to allow a stranger to step over them, or to allow a stranger to reach up in front of the dog to lift something down. If either or both of those actions cause the reaction, than the dog could have easily passed a CGC.
> 
> And I do not think that the purpose of the CGC is fulfilled if people think it a fitting test for a service dog in public. CGCs are a gateway for more training, they have a place. They pretty much say, good job, what a great start, not, now your dog is safe in all situations.


Selzer I understand CGC's aren't nearly whats needed but it's an easily available test and at least would show some sort of good behavior from the dog. By no means great but definitely a step in a better direction.



Chicagocanine said:


> There is already a type of test used for service dogs, called a Public Access Test. However this is NOT a (legal) requirement in any way to have a service dog or for a service dog to go out in public. I also think IIRC there are different versions of the test. It also is up to intepretation by the trainer or whoever is giving the test.
> 
> There are problems with the idea of REQUIRING something like a test for service dogs before they are allowed in public. How do you make sure everyone who needs a service dog has easy access to this test when they need it? Who decides which dogs pass the test or who is qualified to give the test? Who pays for the people to give the test? How would it be regulated? What about people who are on a limited income, or live in an outlying area and cannot travel? How do they get access to testing? And so on...


I get there are issues with the test but the CGC you have people who test to become testers they could do the same thing with the public access test. Maybe for extreme cases where there is noone to test the dog the person could take a video of the dog doing everything on the test and send it to a head office or something where the dog could get passed that way. Is it ideal no of course not are there some extreme cases where they have no one to test them no access to electronics to take the video etc.. of course but I'd rather have a few people left out or inconvenianced then having people being attacked numerous times from all the frauds out there. Maybe something where you can submit financial records to show you can't afford the test to help cover the cost of it like with low cost spay/neuter stuff. No one is ever going to be happy but I'd rather have an extreme rare case that can not do ANY of the above things to show their dog is safe have them upset because they need to go to the store with a friend or relative instead of their dog then have someone getting attacked. I mean its not saying no stores would allow the dog even without the test but maybe not all stores or restaurants.


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## selzer

And maybe, if one wants to be able to take the service dog into stores where they would otherwise not be allowed, maybe they might make it a point to get to somewhere that there IS testing, or arrange for testing. Sometimes, in order to be more independent, we have to accept some level of dependence in the short run. 

If someone who does not have the means or is simply unable to go to a location where this type of testing is offered, well, maybe they do not have the means or ability to scocialize the dog properly or train the dog to act properly in public either. 

The lady who want the Golden was able to raise 20k for a service dog, and willing to go to boot camp. She would be able to go to where there is testing. 

I am all for being accommodating for people with disabilities. But there is a point where ya have to protect the public too. 

People who are getting on in years, may find it difficult to go in the bureau of motor vehicles to get their vision tested every four years to keep their Driver's License current. Should we just forget about it because it might be a hardship for them?


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## Holmeshx2

selzer said:


> And maybe, if one wants to be able to take the service dog into stores where they would otherwise not be allowed, maybe they might make it a point to get to somewhere that there IS testing, or arrange for testing. Sometimes, in order to be more independent, we have to accept some level of dependence in the short run.
> 
> If someone who does not have the means or is simply unable to go to a location where this type of testing is offered, well, maybe they do not have the means or ability to scocialize the dog properly or train the dog to act properly in public either.
> 
> The lady who want the Golden was able to raise 20k for a service dog, and willing to go to boot camp. She would be able to go to where there is testing.
> 
> I am all for being accommodating for people with disabilities. But there is a point where ya have to protect the public too.
> 
> People who are getting on in years, may find it difficult to go in the bureau of motor vehicles to get their vision tested every four years to keep their Driver's License current. Should we just forget about it because it might be a hardship for them?


:thumbup::thumbup: This is exactly where I was trying to go with it. If they want to go to the store by themself and have so much independence then they need to find someway to make something work to get a simple test done. Selzer I love your analogy of getting vision tested.


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## ILGHAUS

> The lady who want the Golden was able to raise 20k for a service dog, and willing to go to boot camp. She would be able to go to where there is testing.


For a $20,000. dog I would expect that the dog was evaluated for the job (temperament and health) before being turned over to the handler and certified by some basic - at least - standards by the organization. 

But sadly some of these organizations don't even do this.

We all had a chance to respond back to Congress and the various committees while the ADA was being revised but relatively few took advantage of this opportunity including businesses and many dog organizations.


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## Mrs.K

a 20 000 dollar dog better does your dishes, laundry and poops money on top of that.


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## ILGHAUS

> a 20 000 dollar dog better does your dishes, laundry and poops money on top of that.


No, a $20,000 dog should be suitable for SD work. If going through a for-profit organization the handler of course must pay for the 2 years of training, equipment, the cost of the dog, and all food and medical care. If going through a non-profit the cost of the dog is carried in large part by donations.


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## Konotashi

Chicagocanine said:


> I totally agree that people need to take it seriously. A woman I knew (friend/coworker of my mom) died due to a low blood sugar incident. She was alone in her home at the time. I knew her because I had been trying to help her find a home for her dog at the time (incidentally I don't know what happened with the dog after that...)


My mom's ex bf is a diabetic. He doesn't take care of himself like he should. One time in the middle of the night, Sania (my lab) was pacing around my mom's room and wouldn't sit still. My mom could NOT figure out what was wrong with her. She felt Ron and he was soaking wet from sweating. Had to call the ambulance. (One of many, many times). 
He's almost had to have one of his legs amputated from the knee down due to his diabetes.


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## Konotashi

CGC was mentioned before - what about BH? Considering the dog has to heel and be able to stay focused in a crowd of people, that seems more suitable for a service dog. Or maybe CGC and BH.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> I agree. But not just the customer is always right, but the customer is always right, they are disabled, this is a service dog. I probably would have stepped over the dog too if they are looking at a saddle, and said to. Of course, I get 1/2 of the saddle purchase so it is a major big deal for me. I want them to buy, I do not want to upset them with what they might perceive as an attitude, and I would WANT to accomadate someone who needs a dog.


EXACTLY. I think there wer probably a lot of forces at play in her decision to step over the dog...


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## NancyJ

Well, it really should not matter. A dog coming in contact with people in this fashion needs to be stable enough to "get over" this kind of thing without launching an all out brutal attack.


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## GSDElsa

I totally agree, but some people were kind of questioning why someone would be so silly as to step over the dog even if the owner said it was OK.


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## Dylan

There are way too many loopholes in the service animal scenario. A dog is a service dog if the owner says it is. This means that one could own a dog that wasn't trained at all, buy a vest, and declare that it is a service dog needed for an non-existant disability. I have been urged more than once to get a vest for a GSD so I could get the dog into campgrounds where the breed is banned. It's also a way to get a dog a free plane ride and entry to places where dogs would not otherwise be allowed. I doubt that any business will get away with banning sevice dogs.

Sadly the people who are going to get hurt the most by these imposters are the ones who truly need service dogs. I have personal knowledge of 3 dog owners who say their dogs are service dogs to get them free flights, to exagerate their dogs training and their own training expertise. 

Sometimes even trained dogs show aggression to certain humans. Anyone remember the photo of the police officer with his GSD K-9 that bit a man in the face when he leaned down to pet him? It was all over the net. This dog was a working police dog for quite a while and had never before given the handler any cause for concern. It behooves all dogs owners to err on the side of caution when in public with any dog.


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## Mrs.K

Konotashi said:


> CGC was mentioned before - what about BH? Considering the dog has to heel and be able to stay focused in a crowd of people, that seems more suitable for a service dog. Or maybe CGC and BH.


Honestly, the CGC is a joke. In my book it is not enough obedience, especially when 3 month old puppies can pass that test, it's not enough obedience to portray a dog as a good citizen and definitely NOT enough obedience for a Service Dog.


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## ken k

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, the CGC is a joke. In my book it is not enough obedience, especially when 3 month old puppies can pass that test, it's not enough obedience to portray a dog as a good citizen and definitely NOT enough obedience for a Service Dog.



+1,


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## Hillary_Plog

First of all LARHAGE, I am so sorry this has happened to your friend...she is quite lucky though to have had you there when it happened, as well as through her recovery.

Second, I have been a service dog trainer for over 10 years and I am one of the minority who actually believes we *SHOULD* have a national certification system in place for service dogs. I believe it can be done with minor, if any, financial or physical impact on the person who is in need of the dog. 

I believe that service dogs should go through a rigorous testing system that far exceeds the requirements of a CGC or BH, and I also believe that not every person who has a legal disability is a good candidate for a service dog and not every dog is a good candidate for the work...but unfortunately, right now, every person (with a legally declared disability) and every dog they want to claim as a service dog is technically "allowed" to enter a public building with little to no real consequences, as long as they know what to say to someone IF they even get questioned about it. 

And that's just the people that actually HAVE a legitimate disability...that doesn't even count the morons who pass off their pets as service dogs (I know of MANY who have attempted or done this) and/or the morons who claim to be "service dog trainers" who bring dangerous dogs into public places under the guise of "training" in order to train their own dog or someone else's dog. 

I am personally seeing this spiral out of control, not only nationally, but at a state and community level as well. Unfortunately, I don't think there is enough real public interest to make any serious change happen...and this is, of course, to the detriment of people like the OP's friend. 

JMHO.


----------



## BlackPuppy

Any updates on the condition of your friend, or the fate of the dog?

I know a woman who trained her Malinois as a service dog. However, I don't believe she ever intends the dog to ever be one. Unless she plans on being disabled herself in the future. I think the dog is 3 years old now. 

She got it a "service dog in training" vest when it was a young puppy and would take it to all the stores. She taught it service dog behaviors, like how to turn on a light switch. (She used a dummy switch close to the ground.) And how to take money from people. (Donations for a shelter.) 

I always had mixed feelings about what she was doing. However, it is probably one of the most well trained dog I've ever met.


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## Caledon

Hope your friend is going to be ok, both physically and emotionally.

I do not see a lot of service dogs in my area. In the past I've always assumed that they have been selected based on temperment, trained to a high obedience level, and trained for the tasks that they need to perform. I would be wrong from what I'm reading here.

If I see a service dog in the furture I will be a little more aware of the dog and make sure I keep my distance.

There was an article in the Toronto Star not too long ago about a woman who is visually impaired and her service dog. The dog is a GSD. An uneducated employee of a gas station asked that she exit the store with the dog. She put up a big fuss, missed an important event in her son's life to make this point and is now suing the gas station for a huge sum of money. She also got a cab driver fired. A picture of her sitting beside the gas station with the dog shows the dog in a harness, no vest, wearing a prong collar. Would have thought that a service dog of that level would not need a prong collar. Again, I would be wrong.


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## BlackthornGSD

Caledon said:


> A picture of her sitting beside the gas station with the dog shows the dog in a harness, no vest, wearing a prong collar. Would have thought that a service dog of that level would not need a prong collar. Again, I would be wrong.


This is such a judgmental statement. 

A Service Dog may be highly trained and very stable, but it's still a dog. If the owner knows that he or she is unable (perhaps because of disability) to hold the dog if it is startled or excited or if a correction needs to be given, that piece of equipment may make all the difference. 

Perhaps the handler's balance or strength is compromised--should not this person use the correct equipment to most appropriately deal with unexpected actions/reactions by the dog?


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, the CGC is a joke. In my book it is not enough obedience, especially when 3 month old puppies can pass that test, it's not enough obedience to portray a dog as a good citizen and definitely NOT enough obedience for a Service Dog.


Mrs.K, have you put CGCs on a dog, on all your dogs? 

I find it curious why people insist on completely discounting achievements that people do with their dogs. Some work hard to get a dog to that point. Some dogs have difficulties with one or more tests, and their owners spend time training it and working on it, and when their dog passes, they are proud of the dog. And they should be. 

And then someone sticks their nose high in the air and says it is a joke. Someone who has started training their dog in this, and started training their dog in that, and I don't know if that person has completed anything. 

If someone with a UD, or a SchH3 on their dog, says the CGC is a joke, it is STILL not ok. Not every dog is in the same place, not every one is raised by its owners for its whole life, not every dog has stable nerves. Not every handler has grown up around dogs, has trained dogs before, etc., and not every CGC evaluator grades the test the same way. 

The CGC has merit. It was never designed to be a measure for service dog.


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## Hillary_Plog

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is such a judgmental statement.
> 
> A Service Dog may be highly trained and very stable, but it's still a dog. If the owner knows that he or she is unable (perhaps because of disability) to hold the dog if it is startled or excited or if a correction needs to be given, that piece of equipment may make all the difference.
> 
> Perhaps the handler's balance or strength is compromised--should not this person use the correct equipment to most appropriately deal with unexpected actions/reactions by the dog?


Absolutely...I couldn't have said it better myself! A pinch collar, or any type of equipment, is in no way an indication of the level or quality of training a service, or any, dog has.

Several, large and quite reputable service dog organizations across the country use pinch collars for their mobility dogs.


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## Mrs.K

Nope, and I don't have to, to know that every single of my dogs would pass it with flying colors. 

But it is a joke. It's a test for pet dogs and I wouldn't count it as an obedience trial or anything important to show that the dog is trained. With a little obedience training anyone can pass that test. 

How many people have posted on this forum that their PUPPIES have passed it. A puppy!!! 

I am not disregarding any achievements, all I am saying is that the CGC doesn't portray anything and a dog is not a good citizen just by earning the CGC, there is much more to a good dog in public than the CGC and I don't have to have the CGC to have a good citizen and take my dog anywhere in the public. 

As a matter of a fact, I don't have to be worried about my dog to act up in the public and for that I don't need a CGC. 

The CGC alone should NEVER be a factor in electing a Service Dog. Anyone selecting a dog, based off the CGC is criminally neglicient. 

It may sound cruel but honestly, I do disregard the CGC because it says nothing about the dog itself. Nor does a SchH1 say anyting about a dog. All it says that somebody took the time to work the dog but that doesn't mean that that dog should have passed the CGC or the SchH1. 

You can't pick a dog based on any title because a title is just a title and doesn't say anything about the dogs quality. 
If the dog has multiple titles in multiple avenues, that is a difference. But to give the CGC any kind of importance is pretty much a joke in the ellection kind of way. 




selzer said:


> Mrs.K, have you put CGCs on a dog, on all your dogs?
> 
> I find it curious why people insist on completely discounting achievements that people do with their dogs. Some work hard to get a dog to that point. Some dogs have difficulties with one or more tests, and their owners spend time training it and working on it, and when their dog passes, they are proud of the dog. And they should be.
> 
> And then someone sticks their nose high in the air and says it is a joke. Someone who has started training their dog in this, and started training their dog in that, and I don't know if that person has completed anything.
> 
> If someone with a UD, or a SchH3 on their dog, says the CGC is a joke, it is STILL not ok. Not every dog is in the same place, not every one is raised by its owners for its whole life, not every dog has stable nerves. Not every handler has grown up around dogs, has trained dogs before, etc., and not every CGC evaluator grades the test the same way.
> 
> The CGC has merit. It was never designed to be a measure for service dog.


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## BlackthornGSD

Mrs.K said:


> The CGC alone should NEVER be a factor in electing a Service Dog. Anyone selecting a dog, based off the CGC is criminally neglicient.
> ....


But every SD should be able to pass a CGC, yes? No one is selecting a dog because it has a CGC--rather, they should be considering that their minimum criteria of obedience and stability. 

Almost any SD is going to do something that isn't tested by the CGC--such as an assistance dog may be opening doors or retrieving common items. A mobility assistance dog is going to know how to brace and counterbalance an unsteady handler, a guide dog is going to know how to stop at changes in elevation, avoid moving hazards, etc. These are not going to be tested by any one evaluation--the needs of the users are different. But every service dog should be able to demonstrate some minimal level of basic stability and control--which may, perhaps, be approximately what is shown in the CGC.


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## Mrs.K

It's common sense that any Service Dog should pass the CGC. They should even be able to pass the BH. 

I wouldn't want a dog that only has the minimum criteria. Either a dog is stable or it isn't. The CGC, in my opinion is just not enough to show any kind of qualification for a Service Dog. There needs to be much more testing done than the CGC. If a dog goes through 2 years of training and then have him go through the CGC just to show that he's got minimum criteria? That is not what I wanted to spend my 20k on. 

Nah... there should be a service dog evaluation tailored towards the service dogs themselves. How they perform their tasks and especially how they perform in public. I.E. stepping over the dog, in a Restaurant, how they are working through the traffic and manouver through Walmart, riding on a bus or train, taxi. 

Pretty much anything a Service Dog can encounter on a daily basis. 



BlackthornGSD said:


> But every SD should be able to pass a CGC, yes? No one is selecting a dog because it has a CGC--rather, they should be considering that their minimum criteria of obedience and stability.
> 
> Almost any SD is going to do something that isn't tested by the CGC--such as an assistance dog may be opening doors or retrieving common items. A mobility assistance dog is going to know how to brace and counterbalance an unsteady handler, a guide dog is going to know how to stop at changes in elevation, avoid moving hazards, etc. These are not going to be tested by any one evaluation--the needs of the users are different. But every service dog should be able to demonstrate some minimal level of basic stability and control--which may, perhaps, be approximately what is shown in the CGC.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> The CGC has merit. It was never designed to be a measure for service dog.


It should be the bare minimum for a service dog, in my opinion... if a service dog can't even pass a CGC, we have a problem. Having put a CGC on a dog for the first time recently, without even having trained for it, I can say it should be pretty easy for any dog with a minimum of training and a stable temperament to pass.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Nope, and I don't have to, to know that every single of my dogs would pass it with flying colors.
> 
> But it is a joke. It's a test for pet dogs and I wouldn't count it as an obedience trial or anything important to show that the dog is trained. With a little obedience training anyone can pass that test.
> 
> How many people have posted on this forum that their PUPPIES have passed it. A puppy!!!
> 
> I am not disregarding any achievements, all I am saying is that the CGC doesn't portray anything and a dog is not a good citizen just by earning the CGC, there is much more to a good dog in public than the CGC and I don't have to have the CGC to have a good citizen and take my dog anywhere in the public.
> 
> As a matter of a fact, I don't have to be worried about my dog to act up in the public and for that I don't need a CGC.
> 
> The CGC alone should NEVER be a factor in electing a Service Dog. Anyone selecting a dog, based off the CGC is criminally neglicient.
> 
> It may sound cruel but honestly, I do disregard the CGC because it says nothing about the dog itself. Nor does a SchH1 say anyting about a dog. All it says that somebody took the time to work the dog but that doesn't mean that that dog should have passed the CGC or the SchH1.
> 
> You can't pick a dog based on any title because a title is just a title and doesn't say anything about the dogs quality.
> If the dog has multiple titles in multiple avenues, that is a difference. But to give the CGC any kind of importance is pretty much a joke in the ellection kind of way.


It is NOT an obedience test, it is a manners test, along with some temperament stuff. Never meant to be a measure of a dog's obedience level. 

Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is. I could sit here and say schutzhund titles are a joke, that I KNOW my dog can get a schutzhund title, that I do not need to get a schutzhund title to know it. That and sixty five cents will get you a cup of coffee somewhere.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> It is NOT an obedience test, it is a manners test, along with some temperament stuff. Never meant to be a measure of a dog's obedience level.
> 
> Maybe you should put your money where your mouth is. I could sit here and say schutzhund titles are a joke, that I KNOW my dog can get a schutzhund title, that I do not need to get a schutzhund title to know it. That and sixty five cents will get you a cup of coffee somewhere.


And what kind of manners does it test, Selzer? 

Most of the time it is tested in some hall, there are no outside influences, no street manner and what does the CGC say about the temperament? 

Give the dog some Baldrian and it'll pass that test. The CGC says nothing about manners, nor does it say anything about the temperament of the dog. The dog is not put under any kind of REAL pressure that a Service Dog can encounter. It says nothing about the real temperament of a dog at all. 

As for put your money where your mouth is. I am actively working my dogs in Obedience and for SAR. They perform in public places. 

If I wouldn't do anything with the dogs and only sit at home, doing nothing... it would be a different story. But this is not about my or your dogs it's about Service Dogs and if the CGC is enough and it clearly isn't.


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## BlackthornGSD

Mrs.K said:


> It's common sense that any Service Dog should pass the CGC. They should even be able to pass the BH.
> 
> I wouldn't want a dog that only has the minimum criteria. Either a dog is stable or it isn't. The CGC, in my opinion is just not enough to show any kind of qualification for a Service Dog. There needs to be much more testing done than the CGC. If a dog goes through 2 years of training and then have him go through the CGC just to show that he's got minimum criteria? That is not what I wanted to spend my 20k on.
> 
> Nah... there should be a service dog evaluation tailored towards the service dogs themselves. How they perform their tasks and especially how they perform in public. I.E. stepping over the dog, in a Restaurant, how they are working through the traffic and manouver through Walmart, riding on a bus or train, taxi.
> 
> Pretty much anything a Service Dog can encounter on a daily basis.


What if the SD handler is training their own dog? Perhaps they don't have $20,000 and they happen to be an accomplished trainer. 

Almost all SD organizations will not place a dog in a home that has other dogs, so if you happen to have been training and competing with your dogs for 20 years and have 3 dogs with various levels of skills and manners and training and you become disabled, you can't get a dog from an organization without getting rid of your other dogs. 

What's more, nowadays, very few organizations will turn over ownership of the SD to the handler. So you have a handler who comes to depend on the SD for various life tasks and for almost any reason (maybe you don't want to do yearly vaccines, maybe your new SO moved in with his guide dog so now there are two (omg!) dogs in the house), the organization can come and reclaim your partner--the one who makes it possible for you to buy a jug of milk on your own. Many SD handlers do not want to be at the mercy of some organization's judgment of their suitability as the owner of the dog that their daily lives depend on. Go figure.

I have two, three, no, four friends who are in this situation--it's NOT uncommon. So certifications should not be based on what a dog should be able to do if it is trained by an able-bodied person employed by an organization. And I assure you that if you are disabled enough to use a mobility assistance dog, you are not going to be able to do the 100+ yards of heeling required by a BH. And you may not give a flip if your dog heels in heel position. In fact, you may have your dog on your right side, not your left. And it may specifically be a VERY BAD idea for the dog you are leaning on to sit every time you stop--you probably want that dog to continue standing, in fact, so that you may continue standing and not fall to the ground.

So, the BH is a *terrible* idea for a SD certification test, as is any certification/registration that presumes or requires an outside organization or trainer for the dog.


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## Mrs.K

The BH is only an obedience test but it says nothing about how the dog will performs in the public. It's basic obedience but the roadtest is just not enough testing for an SD. 

SD's should have their own tailored testing and it shouldn't matter if you train the dog yourself or if it was trained by an organization, every SD should go through that test. 

Every venue has their own tailored titles. SAR has them, SchH has them, AGility, Flyball, Dock Diving, Herding... SD's should have them too and the BH and CGC is just not enough for a Service Dog that is supposed to have access to EVERYTHING in the Public. 

There are dogs that passed the BH that should NEVER be out in the public, let alone be left alone with a disabled person. The dog should have to go through a selection process and then pass tests down the road. And it really doesn't matter if you have to work the dog yourself or not. 

Something needs to be done so things like in the OP won't happen again. It's in the interest of SD handlers so they don't get the wrong dog and it's in the interest of the public so they are protected from unfit Service Dogs OR Imposters!




BlackthornGSD said:


> What if the SD handler is training their own dog? Perhaps they don't have $20,000 and they happen to be an accomplished trainer.
> 
> Almost all SD organizations will not place a dog in a home that has other dogs, so if you happen to have been training and competing with your dogs for 20 years and have 3 dogs with various levels of skills and manners and training and you become disabled, you can't get a dog from an organization without getting rid of your other dogs.
> 
> What's more, nowadays, very few organizations will turn over ownership of the SD to the handler. So you have a handler who comes to depend on the SD for various life tasks and for almost any reason (maybe you don't want to do yearly vaccines, maybe your new SO moved in with his guide dog so now there are two (omg!) dogs in the house), the organization can come and reclaim your partner--the one who makes it possible for you to buy a jug of milk on your own. Many SD handlers do not want to be at the mercy of some organization's judgment of their suitability as the owner of the dog that their daily lives depend on. Go figure.
> 
> I have two, three, no, four friends who are in this situation--it's NOT uncommon. So certifications should not be based on what a dog should be able to do if it is trained by an able-bodied person employed by an organization. And I assure you that if you are disabled enough to use a mobility assistance dog, you are not going to be able to do the 100+ yards of heeling required by a BH. And you may not give a flip if your dog heels in heel position. In fact, you may have your dog on your right side, not your left. And it may specifically be a VERY BAD idea for the dog you are leaning on to sit every time you stop--you probably want that dog to continue standing, in fact, so that you may continue standing and not fall to the ground.
> 
> So, the BH is a *terrible* idea for a SD certification test, as is any certification/registration that presumes or requires an outside organization or trainer for the dog.


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## Caledon

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is such a judgmental statement.
> 
> A Service Dog may be highly trained and very stable, but it's still a dog. If the owner knows that he or she is unable (perhaps because of disability) to hold the dog if it is startled or excited or if a correction needs to be given, that piece of equipment may make all the difference.
> 
> Perhaps the handler's balance or strength is compromised--should not this person use the correct equipment to most appropriately deal with unexpected actions/reactions by the dog?


Yes, it is a judgmental statement from someone who thought a service dog was trained to a higher level for use as a service dog. This dog had on a harness system that you see with seeing eye dogs. I said I was wrong to think that they were trained to a higher level as I'm now finding out they are not necessarily trained professionally.

Is it not the goal of dog training to only use a prong collar as a tool instead of relying on that tool? Again, I did think that service dogs were held to higher standards and went through many levels of training and tests before they were accepted as a service dog. I'm not involved with service dogs, just a member of society who had pre-conceived thoughts of required training. Like I said, what I thought and what is happens to be totally different. Now I know.


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## selzer

Mrs. K, I do not think "Service Dog" and "CGC" should be in the same sentence. But it is incredibly rude to say that the CGC is a joke. It may be no accomplishment for you and your dogs, but it IS an accomplishment for many people and for many dogs.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Mrs. K, I do not think "Service Dog" and "CGC" should be in the same sentence. But it is incredibly rude to say that the CGC is a joke. It may be no accomplishment for you and your dogs, but it IS an accomplishment for many people and for many dogs.


It has nothing to do with the accomplishment itself. It is an accomplishment for many people but it is a joke to use the CGC as a qualifying element for the Service Dog since it's just not enough. 
It says nothing about the dogs real temperament, it says nothing about a dogs manners. I can get my dog to sit next to me and when you enter the house or she knows you, she still might jump up on you because she's so happy to see you. A Service Dog, obviously, wouldn't do that. 

Again, a Service Dog should always be capable of passing the CGC but I would not make it any kind of requirement or form to select a Service Dog because for that, yes it is a joke.... again, it is not against your or anyones accomplishments.


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## ken k

selzer said:


> The CGC has merit. It was never designed to be a measure for service dog.



while it is an accomplishment, it should never be used solely to judge a dogs ability to be a service dog or therapy dog, and it is used for that purpose, by some organizations


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## BlackthornGSD

Caledon said:


> Yes, it is a judgmental statement from someone who thought a service dog was trained to a higher level for use as a service dog. This dog had on a harness system that you see with seeing eye dogs. I said I was wrong to think that they were trained to a higher level as I'm now finding out they are not necessarily trained professionally.
> 
> Is it not the goal of dog training to only use a prong collar as a tool instead of relying on that tool? Again, I did think that service dogs were held to higher standards and went through many levels of training and tests before they were accepted as a service dog. I'm not involved with service dogs, just a member of society who had pre-conceived thoughts of required training. Like I said, what I thought and what is happens to be totally different. Now I know.


It is not always about training. It's about dogs being living creatures.

If you are able bodied and standing in public and a cart comes out of nowhere and falls on your dog and the wheels run over his tail, and your dog jumps up and is surprised and scared and tries to bolt--just for a second because he is startled--you can hold onto that dog on a regular collar. If you have weakness in your left side and even less ability to hold a leash on your right, that prong collar may be what keeps your dog near you.

If you are standing there in Lowe's with your SD, and someone's dog comes around a corner and attacks your dog barking and snarling, your SD may respond--no matter how stable his nerves and how well trained. And if it is, say, the 3rd time in a year that he has been attacked, you may well understand WHY he is responding to being attacked, but you may still want to give him a correction that he will respect and respond to. Perhaps that prong collar will make all the difference in the world in the dog remembering his training and quickly coming back under control.

These dogs must _maintain _training--they are never finished--and they must be handled by someone who may not have full strength to hold onto a dog that is large enough to be a useful assistant to them. The presence of a correction collar does not mean that the owner expects or wants to use it. Their training never ends--it goes on every day, with every new situation their dog faces. 

Rather than taking the collar as a sign of lack of training, I consider it a sign that the owner may recognize the need to have a few more tools at hand in case the unexpected and unlikely happens and is willing and able to handle the dog as may be needed to keep that living, breathing dog in control and responsive to his training.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> It has nothing to do with the accomplishment itself. It is an accomplishment for many people but it is a joke to use the CGC as a qualifying element for the Service Dog since it's just not enough.
> *It says nothing about the dogs real temperament, it says nothing about a dogs manners*. I can get my dog to sit next to me and when you enter the house or she knows you, she still might jump up on you because she's so happy to see you. A Service Dog, obviously, wouldn't do that.
> 
> Again, a Service Dog should always be capable of passing the CGC but I would not make it any kind of requirement or form to select a Service Dog because for that, yes it is a joke.... again, it is not against your or anyones accomplishments.


I disagree with the bolded. The very first test, the dog sits next to you while someone comes up and greets you. If the dog jumps on that individual. That is a fail. If you fail one part of the test, you fail the test. The dog has to display manners. It cannot jump up on strangers, it cannot grump or shy away when being petted, it must allow its ears and paws to be handled. The owner has to display a level of control, not perfect obedience, but basic sit, down, come, stay, and walking on a loose lead. The dog cannot go to pieces with a number of people walking around with it and its owners. The dog cannot react to another dog. The dog cannot lose its mind if someone runs by, or uses a cane or a walker or a wheel chair, and the dog cannot lose its mind if it hears a loud noise. The dog must be capable of being easily managed with the owner out of the room for three minutes. 

I took offense with your wording of the original statement several posts ago. I do not think it is a joke when used in conjunction with what it takes to be a service dog, more just it is an inappropriate test for that. Yes every service dog should be able to manage a CGC perfectly, and it would be better than no requirements whatsoever, but I think that SDs need there own test that requires a lot more types of people and situations to assure the dog is confident and unlikely to react badly. 

Lots of people are certified to offer the CGC, and many of them are also certified to administer a TDI. And, I think that there is a desire to provide a test that has good availability, willing to sacrifice requirements in order to make the test available to people that may have trouble finding a service dog test close enough to be able to take it. I don't like the idea, because I think a lot of ordinary pet owners are going for the CGC now, and if they make that more strict, harder to get, those people may be lost from even trying. The CGC gets you started, you go on from there, with success with the test, many people are then motivated to continue. I do not want to lose that. 

I do not mean that a dog that clearly fails should be passed to encourage the owner to go on, it should be an accomplishment. But if we make it rigid like obedience, then many will simply not try. I think a lot of testers would be much more rigid if they knew people were using this test as a marker for allowing service dogs access.


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## DharmasMom

I have to agree that there should be a national certification just for service dogs. A rigorous test that they have to pass before they can be called a service dog and be allowed full access to the public. I like Mrs. K's idea that they are tested on buses, in Walmart, on the street, in restaurants, a crowded subway, people stepping over them, kids running by, loud noises, EVERYWHERE and EVERYTHING. 

I understand disabled people rely on them for independence, some of them rely on them for their lives. But the public needs to be safe as well. And they need to know that they are safe. A national certification sets a standard that will allow for as close to a 100% guarantee as you can get that the dog is safe. Nothing in life is 100% when dealing with living creatures but it definitely gets you as close as possible. 

It also would eliminate people who lie about their dogs being service dogs just because they want to take Fido to a restaurant with them.


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## selzer

ken k said:


> while it is an accomplishment, it should never be used solely to judge a dogs ability to be a service dog or therapy dog, and it is used for that purpose, by some organizations


I put a TDI on Rush. The first ten tests were the CGC. There were an additional five tests I think, nothing excruciating. I do not know that it is ensures the dog is suitable as a therapy dog, but it is better than nothing. A therapy dog is not a service dog, they are not allowed access to buildings except by invitation and for their function. Therapy dog and Service dog are so different.


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## selzer

DharmasMom said:


> I have to agree that there should be a national certification just for service dogs. A rigorous test that they have to pass before they can be called a service dog and be allowed full access to the public. I like Mrs. K's idea that they are tested on buses, in Walmart, on the street, in restaurants, a crowded subway, people stepping over them, kids running by, loud noises, EVERYWHERE and EVERYTHING.
> 
> I understand disabled people rely on them for independence, some of them rely on them for their lives. But the public needs to be safe as well. And they need to know that they are safe. A national certification sets a standard that will allow for as close to a 100% guarantee as you can get that the dog is safe. Nothing in life is 100% when dealing with living creatures but it definitely gets you as close as possible.
> 
> It also would eliminate people who lie about their dogs being service dogs just because they want to take Fido to a restaurant with them.


I agree with this, and would go one step further. This testing should be done with the disabled person as the handler. However, I think requirements should be set up regionally. For example, we have no subways here. We have no busses either, and if the disabled person is unlikely to ever use public transportation due to the type of disability, than I think that should be considered.


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## Dylan

How would one test a service animal that was intended to alert to a drop/rise in glucose or an impending seizure?


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## Stevenzachsmom

Larhage, How is your friend today? I have been thinking of her and am hoping for some good news.


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## Chicagocanine

If anyone is interested, here's a few examples of a Public Access Test for service dogs:

Psychiatric Service Dog Society

Public Access Test - Assistance Dogs International

IAADP Minimum Training Standards for Public Access


I think this covers the bases a lot better than using the CGC or BH, or even a temperament test although that is useful as well.





Dylan said:


> There are way too many loopholes in the service animal scenario. *A dog is a service dog if the owner says it is.* This means that one could own a dog that wasn't trained at all, buy a vest, and declare that it is a service dog needed for an non-existant disability. I have been urged more than once to get a vest for a GSD so I could get the dog into campgrounds where the breed is banned. It's also a way to get a dog a free plane ride and entry to places where dogs would not otherwise be allowed. I doubt that any business will get away with banning sevice dogs.


Not exactly. Service dogs must perform tasks to mitigate the owner's disabilities. They also must behave well in public, if a service dog is acting aggressive or causing problems the person can be asked to leave. It is also illegal to pass your dog off as a service dog. Even if a person has a disability, if the dog does not perform tasks/work to mitigate it the dog is not a service dog. Yes, people do abuse the system and pass their dogs off as service dogs and yes it is difficult to be sure a dog is legit but there are laws in place regarding what is and is not a service dog, and even a person with a legit service dog can be asked to leave if the dog is out of control.


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## selzer

Dylan said:


> How would one test a service animal that was intended to alert to a drop/rise in glucose or an impending seizure?


There used to be a program for seeing eye dogs where families with children would raise the puppy for a year, socializing it, and teaching basic obedience. There was a test the dog had to take at the end of the program and pass or wash from the program. The test did not test the dog's ability to be a leader dog for the blind. I am guessing the test was more about whether the dog would be safe in public, around a variety of people, more of a public access test.

If a person needs a dog to monitor glucose levels or alert on siezures or cardiac issues, that dog STILL needs to be safe in public. Having a medical condition does not give a free pass to your dangerous dog. 

This is not just protecting the public, but the disabled person as well, that is if they have anything to lose. If they are taking a service dog around that is not safe in public, they ARE likely to be sued if there is an incident. Service dog or imposter, the owner in this thread should be sued.


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## Chicagocanine

Caledon said:


> There was an article in the Toronto Star not too long ago about a woman who is visually impaired and her service dog. The dog is a GSD. An uneducated employee of a gas station asked that she exit the store with the dog. She put up a big fuss, missed an important event in her son's life to make this point and is now suing the gas station for a huge sum of money. She also got a cab driver fired. A picture of her sitting beside the gas station with the dog shows the dog in a harness, no vest, wearing a prong collar. Would have thought that a service dog of that level would not need a prong collar. Again, I would be wrong.



Some guide dog schools have people work their dogs on specific collars, I know of several schools that have the dogs wear/use "choke" (metal slip) collars. My BIL has a guide dog and the school he got his dog from has him use one. 

Also most guide dogs do not wear vests, they wear guide dog harnesses. 
There is no requirement for dogs to wear a vest, in fact a service dog can go "naked" if the owner wants.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I agree with this, and would go one step further. This testing should be done with the disabled person as the handler. However, I think requirements should be set up regionally. For example, we have no subways here. We have no busses either, and if the disabled person is unlikely to ever use public transportation due to the type of disability, than I think that should be considered.


Absolutely agree a 120% with that as well! :thumbup:

You could use a ride in a ten-seater or a taxi-van instead, there is always a way to get a standardized test in order. With a little flexibility every dog can be tested nationwide.


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## Liesje

I work in IT at a college and we have a blind student who is a frequent IT customer. Her dog does not wear a vest, but he wears a leather guide harness (a big handle sticks up) and a short leather leash on a regular slip chain (but since he's a guide dog he never pulls). He's a very good dog. Whenever she comes down we help her to a seat and her dog always goes underneath the same desk out of sight and takes a nap. When we're done helping her she tells him "hup hup" and he sticks the handle in her hand and takes her out.


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## AbbyK9

> A dog is a service dog if the owner says it is. This means that one could own a dog that wasn't trained at all, buy a vest, and declare that it is a service dog needed for an non-existant disability.


No, actually.

A Service Dog is a Service Dog if it has been individually trained to do multiple (at least three) tasks that mitigate the handler's specific disability. In order to qualify for a Service Dog, the handler must be legally (not just medically) disabled.

Stores can ask if your dog is a Service Dog and they can ask what tasks your dog does for you. Saying, "He helps me feel better" would not be a valid answer.

Even a dog that alerts to high or low blood sugar or a seizure is NOT a Service Dog if it hasn't been trained several demonstrable (as in, on command) tasks.

The problem is, stores don't teach their employees what questions to ask. They just tell them, "If the person says it's a Service Dog, you can't ask them anything else." And therein lies the problem. Every store has the right to say if the dog is a Service Dog and what the dog does. If someone does not respond to the questions, ignores the questions, or tells them it's none of their business, the store has every right to expect the dog is not a real service dog and ask them to leave. Just like they may ask any dog/handler team to leave if the dog is behaving inappropriately, such as barking, lunging, being outside the handler's control, or going potty inside a store/building.

Food for thought ...

I honestly don't think that the CGC would be a good indicator of public-access-level basic obedience and manners for Service Dogs, although it would certainly be nice for more dogs to have (or at least start with) a CGC because it is a test of very basic manners and temperament.

I think the CGC is a very nice basic title for someone to earn with their dog to show that they've done some basic obedience work, but it's just that: basic. If your dog goes through a few weeks of obedience and learns sit, down, stay, and walking nicely, you should have no issues passing the CGC. But it's not exactly an indicator that a dog is suited to or well-trained enough for public access work.

I think the ADI public access test would be a good standard for that. There seem to be enough ADI affiliate trainers that there's at least one trainer or facility in each state. I wonder if they could have the public access test kind of like they do CGC or TDI testing - have one every so often, for a fee, for people with Service Dogs to take. At least that way, Service Dogs would be able to prove by way of a certificate or card of some sort given upon passing, they would be able to prove that they meet the basic minimum public access standards.

I don't like the idea that there should be a certification test for Service Dogs in general because there are too many different types of Service Dogs and the individual tasks they do are tailored to the specific person's disability. So it would be near impossible to come up with a standard certification test. But having a standard public access test may be a step in the right direction - as long as it's not difficult to find one or expensive to take it. I don't think someone should have to shell out $100 or so just to test ... especially as many people with disabilities don't have a large amount of disposable income.


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## Chicagocanine

Chicagocanine said:


> If anyone is interested, here's a few examples of a Public Access Test for service dogs:


Also wanted to add, this test is not an ultimate test and does not cover service dog tasks. Some people use it as a measure to see if their dog is ready for training in public, and some organizations I believe use it as well but again it does NOT mean a dog is a service dog and should not be the only measure for this. It is just a little more relevant as a minimum for seeing how a dog behaves in public vs. a CGC or other test.


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## Jax08

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Larhage, How is your friend today? I have been thinking of her and am hoping for some good news.


Maybe the OP could start a new thread for updates?? How is your friend?


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## Stevenzachsmom

Thanks Jax, Maybe I should just send a PM. LOL! I hope the poor girl is recovering.


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## Mrs.K

Selzer, the CGC isn't rocket science. It doesn't take much to train a dog to take the CGC. And having a dog sit next to you while you shake hands doesn't say anything about the dogs temperament at all. You can pretty much train any dog to do that. 





selzer said:


> I disagree with the bolded. The very first test, the dog sits next to you while someone comes up and greets you. If the dog jumps on that individual. That is a fail. If you fail one part of the test, you fail the test. The dog has to display manners. It cannot jump up on strangers, it cannot grump or shy away when being petted, it must allow its ears and paws to be handled. The owner has to display a level of control, not perfect obedience, but basic sit, down, come, stay, and walking on a loose lead. The dog cannot go to pieces with a number of people walking around with it and its owners. The dog cannot react to another dog. The dog cannot lose its mind if someone runs by, or uses a cane or a walker or a wheel chair, and the dog cannot lose its mind if it hears a loud noise. The dog must be capable of being easily managed with the owner out of the room for three minutes.
> 
> I took offense with your wording of the original statement several posts ago. I do not think it is a joke when used in conjunction with what it takes to be a service dog, more just it is an inappropriate test for that. Yes every service dog should be able to manage a CGC perfectly, and it would be better than no requirements whatsoever, but I think that SDs need there own test that requires a lot more types of people and situations to assure the dog is confident and unlikely to react badly.
> 
> Lots of people are certified to offer the CGC, and many of them are also certified to administer a TDI. And, I think that there is a desire to provide a test that has good availability, willing to sacrifice requirements in order to make the test available to people that may have trouble finding a service dog test close enough to be able to take it. I don't like the idea, because I think a lot of ordinary pet owners are going for the CGC now, and if they make that more strict, harder to get, those people may be lost from even trying. The CGC gets you started, you go on from there, with success with the test, many people are then motivated to continue. I do not want to lose that.
> 
> I do not mean that a dog that clearly fails should be passed to encourage the owner to go on, it should be an accomplishment. But if we make it rigid like obedience, then many will simply not try. I think a lot of testers would be much more rigid if they knew people were using this test as a marker for allowing service dogs access.


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## AbbyK9

> How would one test a service animal that was intended to alert to a drop/rise in glucose or an impending seizure?


Alerting isn't something that the dog is trained to do - it's something the dog either does, with the appropriate way TO alert being a trained response, or doesn't do. Which is why it's generally required that "alert" dogs can not be solely alert dogs but must be trained other tasks for their handlers - like fetching medication. Tasks that are demonstrable (can be demonstrated on command).


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## Jax08

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Thanks Jax, Maybe I should just send a PM. LOL! I hope the poor girl is recovering.


Yes! I think you should! LOL I hope so too. I also wonder if it was ever determined if the dog was actually a SD. I keep doing a google search for a news article but can't find any.

ETA: It would appear that this attack falls under the California Dangerous Dog laws

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stuscafoodagcode31601.htm


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## LARHAGE

Jax08 said:


> Maybe the OP could start a new thread for updates?? How is your friend?


Well my friend is doing okay, she is off work for 10 days as she can not lift her arm at all, the wounds are being cleaned and while they look brutal they are healing, they couldn't do sutures do to the chance of sealing in infection, her spirits are good and being an animal lover she is concerned about the dog, we don't know what is in store for him, the Insurance Company is going after the owners.


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## Mrs.K

I hope she'll get better soon and that there will be no scars and damages left. She's a good person, just that she is concerned about the dog shows how much of a good person she is.


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## Jax08

Did they ever determine if this was actually a SD? How did her appt with the ortho go? Do they still think she could have nerve damage?


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## AbbyK9

> I hope she'll get better soon and that there will be no scars and damages left. She's a good person, just that she is concerned about the dog shows how much of a good person she is.


I second this.


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## Hillary_Plog

AbbyK9 said:


> Alerting isn't something that the dog is trained to do - it's something the dog either does, with the appropriate way TO alert being a trained response, or doesn't do. Which is why it's generally required that "alert" dogs can not be solely alert dogs but must be trained other tasks for their handlers - like fetching medication. Tasks that are demonstrable (can be demonstrated on command).


Just to clarify...

Actually a diabetic alert dog IS and SHOULD be trained to alert. The trainer takes 2 items of clothing from the diabetic person, usually a sock because it has a large accumulation of sweat in it. One of the socks is from when the person was wearing it at normal sugar levels. The other one will be from when the person was wearing it at a low sugar level. 

The dog is trained to distinguish between the two, much the same way a drug or explosive detection dog is trained, and then alert at the smell of the low sugar level. This way, the dog understands that individual person's distinctive smell when they are low and can immediately alert to it. 

Unfortunately, a seizure ALERT dog can not be trained, as we have yet to determine "what" it is that the dog is smelling or sensing when they "alert". So, what can be trained, is a seizure RESPONSE dog. They can lick the face, push a button that calls paramedics, paw at another family member to get their attention, etc.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Thank you for the update. I hope she doesn't try to do too much, too soon. Mrs. K is right, she is a good person. She obviously has a great love for animals. I hope she realizes that none of this was her fault. If the dog has to be PTS - she is not responsible for that. It is a very sad situation all around.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Selzer, the CGC isn't rocket science. It doesn't take much to train a dog to take the CGC. And having a dog sit next to you while you shake hands doesn't say anything about the dogs temperament at all. You can pretty much train any dog to do that.


Uhm, I uhm have put ten dogs through it, so I know what it is and what it isn't and what it takes to pass. I have taken dogs through it with no specific CGC classes, and I have gone with others to the classes and taken the test afterwards. On several dogs I passed the test more than once, just because that was the only class available, and as I paid for it, taking the test is a positive experience. So I think I understand it pretty clearly and what it takes to get a dog through it maybe just a little better than you do as you haven't managed it. 

You mentioned in your post that your dog might jump on me, well _that _would be a fail. I was describing that a dog in public would have to have some manners (not jump on people). 

As for temperament, a dog with very poor nerves or very poorly socialized would be more difficult to train for this test, as it requires petting, it requires being handled, it requires, being handed off to a stranger, and it requires walking through a group of people as well as various distractions and dogs. All of those have to do with temperament and managing in a public area. 

I agree that it is not rocket science and I NEVER suggested it should be used by owners of service dogs to gain entry to public locations. I do not know what we are arguing about because for the most part I am agreeing with you, I just do not like how you regarded the test as a joke.


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## Good_Karma

As someone who owns two dogs who couldn't pass the CGC in a million years, I don't think this test is a non-accomplishment. But I don't know if it means a dog is ready and able to be a service dog either. But the problem with raising the bar on what determines a service dog, is that we run the risk of putting this resource out of the reach of some of the people who desperately need it. I don't know what kind of assistance is available to people with disabilities, but I would imagine that it is income dependent, or based on how good your medical insurance is. That leaves a large group of people who make a little bit too much income to qualify, but not nearly enough to pay for a trained and certified service dog who may only be in good working condition for five to ten years.

I agree that it would be nice if everyone could walk around being assured that all service dogs are properly trained and legitimately certified as such. But I'm afraid that would leave a good number of people unable to have a service dog. And I'm not sure if the handful of service dog attacks that might happen in a given time period is enough to warrant a massive crack down on service dogs. Of course, had I been the victim in this attack, I would likely feel differently.

It certainly is an unfortunate situation for everyone involved. I feel badly for the owners of the store, to have this happen in their establishment. I'm sure they are heartsick over one of their employees getting injured like this.


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## Dylan

I guess the bottom line is that some are passing off untrained dogs as service dogs and they will probably never be called on it. Another of those life situations where it depends on the ethics of the individual to actually be able recognize the difference between right and wrong.

2 of the people I know who manipulate the service dog rules think they are clever for getting away with what they consider "beating the system". One flies his dog to shows at NC and another actually brags about the ability to get a bulkhead seat with his dog at no cost for the dog. Another can't tell the truth about much of anything. 

I was once told that the most blatant abuse of the service animal rules can be seen at airports where and when big shows like Westminster and NASS are held.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Uhm, I uhm have put ten dogs through it, so I know what it is and what it isn't and what it takes to pass. I have taken dogs through it with no specific CGC classes, and I have gone with others to the classes and taken the test afterwards. On several dogs I passed the test more than once, just because that was the only class available, and as I paid for it, taking the test is a positive experience. So I think I understand it pretty clearly and what it takes to get a dog through it maybe just a little better than you do as you haven't managed it.
> *
> You mentioned in your post that your dog might jump on me, well that would be a fail. I was describing that a dog in public would have to have some manners (not jump on people). *
> 
> As for temperament, a dog with very poor nerves or very poorly socialized would be more difficult to train for this test, as it requires petting, it requires being handled, it requires, being handed off to a stranger, and it requires walking through a group of people as well as various distractions and dogs. All of those have to do with temperament and managing in a public area.
> 
> I agree that it is not rocket science and I NEVER suggested it should be used by owners of service dogs to gain entry to public locations. I do not know what we are arguing about because for the most part I am agreeing with you, I just do not like how you regarded the test as a joke.


No, she would not jump on you when I tell her to sit...


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## Hillary_Plog

Good_Karma said:


> As someone who owns two dogs who couldn't pass the CGC in a million years, I don't think this test is a non-accomplishment. But I don't know if it means a dog is ready and able to be a service dog either. But the problem with raising the bar on what determines a service dog, is that we run the risk of putting this resource out of the reach of some of the people who desperately need it. I don't know what kind of assistance is available to people with disabilities, but I would imagine that it is income dependent, or based on how good your medical insurance is. That leaves a large group of people who make a little bit too much income to qualify, but not nearly enough to pay for a trained and certified service dog who may only be in good working condition for five to ten years.
> 
> I agree that it would be nice if everyone could walk around being assured that all service dogs are properly trained and legitimately certified as such. But I'm afraid that would leave a good number of people unable to have a service dog. And I'm not sure if the handful of service dog attacks that might happen in a given time period is enough to warrant a massive crack down on service dogs. Of course, had I been the victim in this attack, I would likely feel differently.
> 
> It certainly is an unfortunate situation for everyone involved. I feel badly for the owners of the store, to have this happen in their establishment. I'm sure they are heartsick over one of their employees getting injured like this.


Many service dog organizations offer the service dogs at no charge. 

The non-profits that do charge, can only charge the amount of money it takes to raise, train, feed and vet a dog for approximately two years (generally the amount of time it takes to raise/train a service dog) because this shows no profit for them. That amount has been determined to be around 6,000 dollars. These particular organizations help with fundraising in order to pay for the dog, as well as offer interest free payment plans (for instance, the organization I train for has a client that pays 20 dollars a month for her mobility dog). 

There are businesses that do train service dogs for a profit, but they are few and far between.

If done right, raising the standards and/or having a certification system in place will pose no undue hardship on a person with a disability. In fact, I believe it could, if done right, actually make having a service dog more of a reality for some (as the rules will be clearly outlined and easy to follow). 

If it were up to me, raising the standards and/or having a certification system in place does not say that owners can not train their own dogs. It says that they must train their dogs in a way that assures that both they, and the general public, are safe and that the dogs are indeed bettering our society and community through their work.


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## Mrs.K

Hillary_Plog said:


> Many service dog organizations offer the service dogs at no charge.
> 
> The non-profits that do charge, can only charge the amount of money it takes to raise, train, feed and vet a dog for approximately two years (generally the amount of time it takes to raise/train a service dog) because this shows no profit for them. That amount has been determined to be around 6,000 dollars. These particular organizations help with fundraising in order to pay for the dog, as well as offer interest free payment plans (for instance, the organization I train for has a client that pays 20 dollars a month for her mobility dog).
> 
> There are businesses that do train service dogs for a profit, but they are few and far between.
> 
> If done right, raising the standards and/or having a certification system in place will pose no undue hardship on a person with a disability. In fact, I believe it could, if done right, actually make having a service dog more of a reality for some (as the rules will be clearly outlined and easy to follow).
> 
> If it were up to me, raising the standards and/or having a certification system in place does not say that owners can not train their own dogs. It says that they must train their dogs in a way that assures that both they, and the general public, are safe and that the dogs are indeed bettering our society and community through their work.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## robinhuerta

I do know of a person(s) who owns a GSD dog....and YES....they use a "vest" to fly with the dog in cabin with them. They are in need of a service dog as much as I am.....and their "service dog", is as much of a service animal as any dog you meet in the street. *Ok...maybe he passed a Therapy Dog test or something...but honestly...nothing else.* People like that, turn my stomach..... and cause the greatest harm.
Yep.....they will fly to the NASS with him in such a fashion.


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## GermanShepherds6800

Both my friend with service dog and I are 100 percent for service regulation and for service dogs to be tested with their handlers. I do not think just testing the dog is enough, I also think they should have to certify as a pair. I believe a ident badge should be used that emergency personal should be able to get medical info from in case the handler is unconscious and I believe that same badge should be used as a license to have the service dog in public. I have heard of many people who show akc that have bragged of putting service vests on puppies and take them to the mall so that it is easy to socialize them to crowds for preparation to the show ring.

My friend is not insulted by the thought of being asked to prove her dog and herself or admitting she has a medical issue requiring use of one. Others I have spoke with feel the same. Some have spoke out saying it would be terrible and discriminating but I personally do not think it is.


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## Mrs.K

I would have no shame in reporting these people to the authority. Isn't it even a felony to pass off your dog as a service dog when it isn't?


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## LARHAGE

Jax08 said:


> Did they ever determine if this was actually a SD? How did her appt with the ortho go? Do they still think she could have nerve damage?


There is so much swelling that it is too early to assess the extent of the damage, her arm looks like it was in a meat grinder, very ugly purple and black and blue bruising, we don't know yet the whole story with the dog yet, though I will update everyone when we find out, right now the Insurance Companies are battling it out as of course Workers Compensation is involved.

I will tell my friend you are all thinking of her, and yes, you all would love her, she has devoted her whole life to animals and has had the most motley assortment of dogs and cats you've ever seen, all rescued off the streets. I finally convinced her to just once have a nice purebred dog and she got herself a beautiful WGSL female she has been doing obedience with and just loving it, she will never hate this dog over this accident, and in fact was wracking her brain trying to figure out if she did something to cause it, but after watching the tape, we knew there was not.


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## Zisso

I have a vest for Nadia similar to the one posted above and I do take her to tack stores and Home Depot. BUT I never ever claim she is a Service Dog. As a matter of fact, I always specify that she is there for experience in public situations & select socialization, but to avoid children. She also wears the vest to the park and will wear it when we go to our first Dock Diving Event next weekend. I would hate to have a child run up to pet her when I know she can be snarky with kids. In reality, I don't think she is even being snarky. I think it is her high prey drive and she reacts to fast moving objects like kids, joggers, bicycles, skate boards, etc before she identifies the object. I would NEVER tell someone to step over her! That is ridiculous and dangerous-what if the person stepping over caught a toe on the dogs body and tripped? Or worse as in this scenario. I also think it is a privilege to be able to take a dog into any establishment and would be rude to allow the dog to be in the way to begin with.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> I would have no shame in reporting these people to the authority. Isn't it even a felony to pass off your dog as a service dog when it isn't?


A felony? I don't think it is a felony. We are lucky if animal cruelty is a felony in places.


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## robinhuerta

Mrs K....and how would one do so?
All that is required is that they (the owners) claim that "he" allerts them to "whatever", and he is now their (her) service dog. There is no "law" or requirement to "prove" so.
Who can on the spot "prove" their dog allerts to seizures or heart attacks??...._have_ _one on the spot??...._


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## JakodaCD OA

sounds painful yes tell her there are alot of people wishing her well


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## selzer

LARHAGE said:


> There is so much swelling that it is too early to assess the extent of the damage, her arm looks like it was in a meat grinder, very ugly purple and black and blue bruising, we don't know yet the whole story with the dog yet, though I will update everyone when we find out, right now the Insurance Companies are battling it out as of course Workers Compensation is involved.
> 
> I will tell my friend you are all thinking of her, and yes, you all would love her, she has devoted her whole life to animals and has had the most motley assortment of dogs and cats you've ever seen, all rescued off the streets. I finally convinced her to just once have a nice purebred dog and she got herself a beautiful WGSL female she has been doing obedience with and just loving it, she will never hate this dog over this accident, and in fact was wracking her brain trying to figure out if she did something to cause it, but after watching the tape, we knew there was not.


No way is it her fault. I would have probably done the same thing, both in stepping over the dog (when they said it was ok), and trying to pull the saddle down. I would expect a service dog to be stable. And I would probably take their word for it. In fact, I probably wouldn't be trying to figure out what I should or shouldn't do. Dog-people might belabor it some in hindsight, but the reality is that we are not all of the population, and a non-dog person would have NEVER considered anything. It simply was not her fault. It is the owner's fault, unless this is the very first time the dog ever did anything at all.


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## Jax08

robinhuerta said:


> Mrs K....and how would one do so?
> All that is required is that they (the owners) claim that "he" allerts them to "whatever", and he is now their (her) service dog. There is no "law" or requirement to "prove" so.
> Who can on the spot "prove" their dog allerts to seizures or heart attacks??...._have_ _one on the spot??...._


Only a person with a disability can have a SD, correct? So the lawyers are going to have to prove this person does not have a disability at the time of the attack.

Itchmo: News For Dogs & Cats Blog Archive Service Dog Law May Be Exploited Due To Loopholes



> In California, using a fake service dog is a misdemeanor, punishable by at least six months in jail and a $1,000 fine.


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## Dylan

Robin, I wonder if this is the same person I was referring to!!!


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## ILGHAUS

> Only a person with a disability can have a SD, correct? So the lawyers are going to have to prove this person does not have a disability at the time of the attack.


*Not hard to do as the court has the power to make the legal decision if the handler is legally disabled per the ADA/Dept. of Justice and if the dog is legally a SD.*

The court can and does request medical records of the owner. Besides listing her disability there should be documentation that a SD was recommended by her doctor. 

The court can and does request documentation from the agency that supplied and trained the dog. If OT then the court will request training logs and various documentation from the owner/trainer.




> Isn't it even a felony to pass off your dog as a service dog when it isn't?


Individual State Law for criminal action which varies by state with some including fines and/or jail time. In some states the owner can also face the loss of future benefits from the state.




> I don't know what kind of assistance is available to people with disabilities, ... or based on how good your medical insurance is.


Medical insurance does not cover the purchase or upkeep of a SD.


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## Dylan

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I have heard of many people who show akc that have bragged of putting service vests on puppies and take them to the mall so that it is easy to socialize them to crowds for preparation to the show ring.
> 
> That's not limited to "AKC people".


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## robinhuerta

IDK Dylan.....do "we" know each other?
If "we" do....there is a chance "we" might be speaking of the same person(s). LOL!
Are you in Illinois?


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## GermanShepherds6800

Probably not. It is only what I know was told to me by AKC exhibitors so I can say I know this to be. I do not know anyone else specifically doing it. I imagine many that do dog sports also commit this crime, but I can only suspect so. I was confused somewhere in this thread about someone using a SAR vest to take the dog in public. I work SAR and certify volunteer groups in SAR. Part of the information packet states unless a dog is working a rescue in a public place that normally prohibits dogs to attend they should not be in these areas using their SAR credentials to gain access. SAR dogs do not have the same rights as service dogs. Same with therapy dogs I believe? Can anyone with a therapy dog clarify this?


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## robinhuerta

The only thing that I can be *absolutely positive *about is...the "dog" that I am refering to....is *absolutely NOT* a service dog of any kind....and the owner(s) do not have a physical disability.....but their dog does have a vest, and they do take him on flights portraying him as such.
*They (the owners) are a couple of "gems" anyhow...and yes, I'm being sarcastic.*
They're just a couple of old biddies.......


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## GermanShepherds6800

Which of them claims to be disabled? Do you ever see one of them that does not claim to be the dogs partner traveling this way with the dog? I would report them to the airlines but it probably would do not good or stop them. Businesses are afraid to confront sd owners for fear of being crucified by news, lawsuit, or federal charges for discrimination. Businesses would be free to check and enforce who uses a dog in their businesses with a system in place with no fear of reprisal. Months ago on Trya banks talk show (I was in waiting room for my car at the shop) She had a segment about a woman who got a monkey because of empty nest syndrome. They had the monkey's teeth removed. They were strolling it through stores shopping baby clothes for it in a mesh covered pet stroller and using a tag that read service animal to do it!! The woman was not using the monkey for health, but rather as a baby. Blatant abuse like this really needs to be stopped.


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## Dylan

I don't think we have ever met, Robin and I don't live in IL. I guess more than one "service animal" will be getting a free flight to NASS this year .


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## robinhuerta

Burns my butt Dylan!
Mine either have to fly cargo...or experience the "drive" with us.


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## Chicagocanine

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Part of the information packet states unless a dog is working a rescue in a public place that normally prohibits dogs to attend they should not be in these areas using their SAR credentials to gain access. SAR dogs do not have the same rights as service dogs. Same with therapy dogs I believe? Can anyone with a therapy dog clarify this?


Yes, that is correct therapy dogs do not have any public access rights. They may be_ invited_ to be in certain places pets are not allowed but this is only by invitation into certain places and does not extend to other locations. I know the therapy dog groups I have been a member of make sure this is well understood by members and is in their rules as well to try to prevent misunderstanding or abuse of the therapy dog status.



robinhuerta said:


> The only thing that I can be *absolutely positive *about is...the "dog" that I am refering to....is *absolutely NOT* a service dog of any kind....and the owner(s) do not have a physical disability.


There are other disabilities than physical ones. Not saying this person has one or uses a legit service dogs, but not all disabilities are visible and people can look perfectly healthy and still need a service dog. Additionally, the rules/laws are different for flying than for general public access-- emotional support animals are also allowed on flights and these are not the same as a service dog, they are prescribed by a doctor and require a doctor's note but they do not need to be specially trained. Emotional support animals are not allowed public access in other situations, the exceptions being flying and housing situations.


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## robinhuerta

No chance the dog is a service animal (the one I'm speaking of)....I *know* the dog, *know* the owners too. ....the only "emotional" support the owners need....is a shrink.


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## ILGHAUS

> She had a segment about a woman who got a monkey because of empty nest syndrome. They had the monkey's teeth removed. They were strolling it through stores shopping baby clothes for it in a mesh covered pet stroller and using a tag that read service animal to do it!! The woman was not using the monkey for health, but rather as a baby. Blatant abuse like this really needs to be stopped.


That has been stopped as a monkey is no longer able to be a service animal and they now go under state and local laws regarding the keeping of a monkey as a pet.


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## ILGHAUS

I have also heard owners talk about flying their dogs free (claiming it to be a SD) from show to show. They see nothing wrong with it as their dog is *valuable*. It is not that unusal of a happening as many in the SD community have heard the same. 

Over the years in this section we have had people say they would do the same if they flew with their dogs.


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## selzer

I am so happy, so grateful that I do not NEED a service dog that I would NEVER try to use an accommodation meant for service dogs. If that means I have to ship my dog by a pet shipping company, or take a flight where the dog can be shipped, that is what it means.


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## DharmasMom

selzer said:


> I am so happy, so grateful that I do not NEED a service dog that I would NEVER try to use an accommodation meant for service dogs. If that means I have to ship my dog by a pet shipping company, or take a flight where the dog can be shipped, that is what it means.



Exactly!!


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## AbbyK9

> All that is required is that they (the owners) claim that "he" allerts them to "whatever", and he is now their (her) service dog. There is no "law" or requirement to "prove" so.


Actually, that isn't true.

In order for a dog to be considered a Service Dog, the dog must be able to perform multiple, demonstrable tasks. The generally recommended minimum number of tasks is three. And demonstrable means that they are performed on command or cue.

An alert is not a demonstrable task because it can't be done on command. If the medical condition to which the dog is alerting isn't taking place, the dog won't alert. So even a dog that alerts would still need to do multiple demonstrable tasks.

So if someone says, "He alerts me to (seizures / blood pressure / whatever" but does not say whether the dog does any demonstrable tasks, I would ask what other things the dog is trained to do. Stores do have a right to ask what the dog does, it's just that most stores and their employees don't know what they may ask of a person with a Service Dog and therefore don't ask and let everyone who says, "Oh, it's a Service Dog." in so they can't be accused of violating the rights of people with disabilities.


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