# Puppies on their way!



## jcojocaru

Bailey is very near the end of her pregnancy. She is at the stage where she will not get up and I cannot even make her get up. She only gets up to go to the bathroom and eat/drink. Just a bit ago she was shivering (for those who don't know, one of the signs that the puppies are nearly on their way, a result of contractions).

This will be my very first time with this experience and I am looking forward to it. I've been looking forward to this day for quite a while now and it is finally here!

Since I have not yet had any experience, advice would be great. I've done research and have a friend who is a breeder who I can go to, and trust his information, but if you guys have advice on:
1. Things I need to do to treat the puppies (I know I need to deworm them every two weeks until 8 weeks old). 
2. Things I need to sell the puppies. My dogs are not showline dogs so from what I hear a pedigree is somewhat pointless as it is usually show dog owners who ask for it.

Any information would be great!
Thank you.


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## Konotashi

Congratulations! Hoping Mom has a smooth, easy delivery. 

Question, though. What do you mean by showline? WGSL, ASL...? When I go 'puppy shopping,' you could call it, I'm going to be looking at working lines. I will most certainly want to see the puppies' pedigree.

EDIT: Are you getting her spayed after she has the pups?


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## jcojocaru

Konotashi said:


> Congratulations! Hoping Mom has a smooth, easy delivery.
> 
> Question, though. What do you mean by showline? WGSL, ASL...? When I go 'puppy shopping,' you could call it, I'm going to be looking at working lines. I will most certainly want to see the puppies' pedigree.



Okay well I don't know as much as I should and honestly wasn't very prepared for this but i am going to do the best I can. 

By showline, what I mean is that the parents, or late ancestors weren't show dogs. Maybe Max's yes, but Bailey no. I think of them as working line dogs. They do look great and have a wonderful structure, however. 

I have a friend who is a breeder and he only breeds show line dogs. He bought a male from a German champion for a pretty large amount and a female from another German breeder as well. His puppies are the kind that sell for large amounts and are pursued by many show dog owners... Sorry If I suck at explaining this lol... So when I compare to his, I can certainly say mine are working line rather than show. But mine, I bought for quality and appearance and so far absolutely no hip problems or anything of the sort. 

The pedigree I would have to ask from the previous owners correct?

Edit: No I am not going to get her spayed.


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## jetscarbie

The best advice I can give....I hope you have a vet on standby. Deliveries can go smoothly and they can go very bad, very quick. 

You said you don't have any experience with this.

It's a little scary that you ask for advice on what to do with the puppies when your female is in delivery and advice on how to sell them. You do know that some mom's eat their young? You do know that the ecomony sucks....not a lot of people buying pups at the moment. Espeically pups that don't have papers. You may have to prepare yourself to having a bunch of pups.

I really hope you can call an experienced person or vet to help you out.

Good luck


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## jetscarbie

Geez, from your previous post.....on 12-17, your dogs were only 1 year old.


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## Castlemaid

I moved this thread to the breeding forum so the experienced breeders can give you advice and help as you go along. 

For advice on selling the pups, maybe you could start a new thread with that subject. Breeders could help you with suggestions on how to raise the pups, test and evaluate their temperaments, and find and screen potential owners to make sure that they go to good forever homes.


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## Holmeshx2

Just for the record just because they aren't show line doesn't instantly make them working line theres a large quantity of dogs that are not in any of those categories (WL,WGSL,ASL) that I'm pretty sure you're pups fall between. I'm sure puppy buyers want to know what they are getting not what you are assuming because they don't match you're friends dogs. Also, my girl is a working line and I definitely wanted a pedigree I'm pretty sure most people regardless of lines want pedigrees.


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## qbchottu

I think responsible owners would like to see a pedigree so they know what they are working with. Is your male showline and your female working? That's just my guess from looking at your profile pictures. Do you have any info on their pedigree or background? Would you be able to register your dogs? How old is your dam? Is it her first litter? What were your goals with this mating? Are your dogs titled/rated? What type of puppies do you expect to produce and what type of homes will they be best in (working/show/companion)? Answers to these questions would help decide who to sell to



> I think of them as working line dogs. They do look great and have a wonderful structure, however.


Info on show/working lines:
Link 1 Link2 Link 3
Like Holmeshx2 said, just because they aren't show dogs doesn't automatically default them to working line. Working line dogs possess special characteristics that have been selectively bred for. 



> But mine, I bought for quality and appearance and so far absolutely no hip problems or anything of the sort.


Have they had their hips tested and certified? Responsible owners will want to see these results. Do you plan on offering a hip/elbow guarantee? 

Here is some info on whelping:
Link 1 Link 2 Link 3  Link 4


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## Stevenzachsmom

Puppies having puppies. No plan to spay. Just another BYB putting her dog at risk. I'll probably get blasted for being the nasty person - the one who can't say something nice. Your one year old GSD was hit by a car, because you let it go out alone. You admit it was a huge mistake, yet still make excuses. You got the two puppies last March. People told you crate them separately, They told you to watch for her going into heat so this didn't happen. You don't want any advice.

I hope the outcome is good for your bitch and the puppies. I really do.


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## jetscarbie

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Puppies having puppies. No plan to spay. Just another BYB putting her dog at risk. I'll probably get blasted for being the nasty person - the one who can't say something nice. Your one year old GSD was hit by a car, because you let it go out alone. You admit it was a huge mistake, yet still make excuses. You got the two puppies last March. People told you crate them separately, They told you to watch for her going into heat so this didn't happen. You don't want any advice.
> 
> I hope the outcome is good for your bitch and the puppies. I really do.


 
Yes, that's what I read also. 
Actually, from previous post that OP made on 12-17-11, both his dogs had just turned one.. If you add in the fact that his female is having pups now.....that makes his female less than a year old when she got pregnant....and that makes the stud also less than a year old.

I also believe OP asked a question about crating his dog's together. A moderator replied and told him NOT to unless he wanted his puppies to have puppies.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Shaking my head jetscarbie. Shaking my head.


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## msvette2u

Oh my. 
Nice dogs but too young and nothing accomplished.
Sad. 
Please learn more before you make this mistake again.
I think it's more than ironic you are asking what you need to sell the puppies and then you try to educate _us_ as to signs of labor.

You should wait until the puppies are 8 weeks of age (minimum), spay/neuter them, spay/neuter the parents (or title them) and then adopt out the puppies as "pet quality" and ask just enough to reimburse yourself for the s/n surgeries.


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## qbchottu

I would never ever breed a dog during her first or second heat cycles. It's like having a pregnant 12 year old girl... I don't believe 1-1.5 year old bitches are mature enough to properly care for and raise a litter. Also I would want the dogs cleared of any health issues at 2 years before considering a breeding. Younger dogs are also not fully developed physically so you might have to consider a C-section. Emergency C-sections are _expensive_ to say the least (1k just for just the c-section in my area. Much more for a housecall/sedation/other issues). A young dog that is not physically done growing and is sustaining a pregnancy during their own growth cycle will not be able to properly devote enough nutrition to its own growth as well as the puppies. This puts the dam and pups at considerable risk. Read a bit about Eclampsia and other severe problems that can come up during pregnancy...

Do me a favor and take a trip to your local kill shelter. You'll see purebreds and mixes alike all waiting for homes. Read the sticky on responsible breeders. Reconsider your stance on spaying please... 
Sending positive thoughts your way...


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## msvette2u

BTW shaking indicates pain but could also indicate a fever. 
You need to be checking her temperature at least 1x a day.


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## Emoore

Good luck for a safe delivery. Hope mama and babies are ok, hope you find great homes for them, and hope you reconsider spaying.


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## GSDBESTK9

Very sad. I guess you have NO IDEA of the complications your female could have, even loose her life.

Sorry, but this is Pathetic! For your dog's sake, I wish her the best with this delivery.


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## LaRen616

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Puppies having puppies. No plan to spay. Just another BYB putting her dog at risk. I'll probably get blasted for being the nasty person - the one who can't say something nice. Your one year old GSD was hit by a car, because you let it go out alone. You admit it was a huge mistake, yet still make excuses. You got the two puppies last March. People told you crate them separately, They told you to watch for her going into heat so this didn't happen. You don't want any advice.
> 
> I hope the outcome is good for your bitch and the puppies. I really do.


I feel the same way mom.


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## Stevenzachsmom

LaRen616 said:


> I feel the same way mom.


I raised you right baby girl!


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## Whiteshepherds

Maybe people could hold off on the tar and feathering until after the pups are born. 

To the OP - Use the search engine on the forum and type in welping. You'll find a lot of information about how to prepare, what you might expect etc.
Hopefully you have a vet you can call in case there's an emergency and you know what things to watch for.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> *Maybe people could hold off on the tar and feathering until after the pups are born. *
> 
> To the OP - Use the search engine on the forum and type in welping. You'll find a lot of information about how to prepare, what you might expect etc.
> Hopefully you have a vet you can call in case there's an emergency and you know what things to watch for.


I'm sorry. I can't. I read the OPs old threads and see no evidence of a responsible person. I see a person who does not take good advice - A person who has allowed two puppies to breed and will not get her female spayed. I see history repeating itself and possible inbreeding down the road.


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## Castlemaid

I suggest people start a thread in chat or stories to talk about irresponsible owners. 

In the meantime, this is the breeding section, let's keep the focus on making sure that the OP gets the help she needs to make sure her bitch and the pups come through this okay. 

Thank you.


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## lhczth

People, the deed is done. All we can do is hope to protect the female and the puppies from disaster. 

To the OP: Do you know exactly when your female was bred so you have an idea of her due date? Females can whelp as early as 59 days post breeding and up to 67 days (that would be uncommon). From day 57 on I would be taking her temperature 2 X per day (rectal). Most females will drop to below 99 degrees and some as low as 98 degrees 24 hours before they whelp. Most females start nesting a few hours and even the day before they whelp. I have never seen a GSD bitch shiver as a sign or labor. I have heard of this in small/toy breeds. 

I would have a vet on call.

I would do a search since we have had threads recently about preparing for puppies ad the supplies needed. 

I would be there for your bitch. Don't her to do this on her own. Things happen and she could die without vet assistance. She is very young and not physically mature. She is also not mentally mature so I would not leave her alone with the puppies for at least a couple of days.


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## ladylaw203

I have been breeding dogs a long time and never had one shiver.
That being said. You need to start feeding her a lot of yogurt. 
As she is whelping, every pup or two,feed her vanilla ice cream,yes,vanilla ice cream. I learned this from a vet long ago. Boosts the glucose level quicker than an IV and kick starts more contractions. 
When is this dog due? would have been advantageous to have shot an xray and counted pups.


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## jcojocaru

My previous dog, I let him out to go to the bathroom. He never ran to the street prior to that. I was very sick so I stood by the door and waited for him. I guess this forum isn't a very good place to go for advice as all I get is judgment and people who think they're so much better than me. I'm not in any way saying I'm better than anyone.

1. I do have a vet on standby and an experienced friend as well.
2. I have taken all the steps necessary, I didn't just sit around and "make excuses". 
3. Stop treating animals like people. Until you know how I treat my dogs, don't accuse me of being a "irresponsible owner". I don't need to get my pets spayed. It's unnatural and if you're going to treat an animal like a human, why not go get yourself spayed as well? If my dogs are going to do something completely natural, big deal. I'm taking all the steps necessary to ensure all goes well. 

Those of you who are actually trying to help, thank you. I appreciate it. There's a reason I'm here, for help. Not idiots with a "high and mighty" attitude.


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## GSD Fan

jcojocaru said:


> Bailey is very near the end of her pregnancy. She is at the stage where she will not get up and I cannot even make her get up. She only gets up to go to the bathroom and eat/drink. Just a bit ago she was shivering (for those who don't know, one of the signs that the puppies are nearly on their way, a result of contractions).
> 
> This will be my very first time with this experience and I am looking forward to it. I've been looking forward to this day for quite a while now and it is finally here!
> 
> Since I have not yet had any experience, advice would be great. I've done research and have a friend who is a breeder who I can go to, and trust his information, but if you guys have advice on:
> 1. Things I need to do to treat the puppies (I know I need to deworm them every two weeks until 8 weeks old).
> 2. Things I need to sell the puppies. My dogs are not showline dogs so from what I hear a pedigree is somewhat pointless as it is usually show dog owners who ask for it.
> 
> Any information would be great!
> Thank you.



I hope you will at least consider the advice in this thread. Some of it may have been harsh, but these GSD people love their dogs and the breed. They want the best for their breed and seeing a breeder who does not breed to the best standards angers them. You have to understand that if you going to breed and possibly add more to the animals dieing in shelters and roaming the streets, you MUST make the gain outweigh the risk. You MUST produce dogs that add to the breed and make the breed and dogs better companions or what they are bred for OVERALL. 

The breed and other breeds need more good and ethical breeders and you can become that. However, it takes work and dedication. There are no short cuts.

What I suggest you do is after this litter, spay and neuter your female and male. As for the puppies, ask a rescue or shelter to help evaluate them and place them in good homes.

Then, since you had two GSDs, take a look at what goes into ethical and responsible breeding. See if you want to do that. People preach about the bad parts of breeding, but there are good parts that make it worth it to some people.

As for the people who bashed her or him, please don't be offended by this, but I know what this person is going through being bashed by dog people. What made me change my views on dogs and german shepherds were the people who nice to me. When you bash a person, you end up losing them.


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## jcojocaru

lhczth said:


> People, the deed is done. All we can do is hope to protect the female and the puppies from disaster.
> 
> To the OP: Do you know exactly when your female was bred so you have an idea of her due date? Females can whelp as early as 59 days post breeding and up to 67 days (that would be uncommon). From day 57 on I would be taking her temperature 2 X per day (rectal). Most females will drop to below 99 degrees and some as low as 98 degrees 24 hours before they whelp. Most females start nesting a few hours and even the day before they whelp. I have never seen a GSD bitch shiver as a sign or labor. I have heard of this in small/toy breeds.
> 
> I would have a vet on call.
> 
> I would do a search since we have had threads recently about preparing for puppies ad the supplies needed.
> 
> I would be there for your bitch. Don't her to do this on her own. Things happen and she could die without vet assistance. She is very young and not physically mature. She is also not mentally mature so I would not leave her alone with the puppies for at least a couple of days.



I am honestly not very sure. I always paid very close attention to my dogs and I have not seen any signs of Bailey being in heat. I keep them together because when I'm not around they're happy together and that's the reason I got two in the first place. 

I am probably going to take her to the vet because it seems more that she's sick to me than anything and I'd rather be safe. But yes I've been with her throughout it all. I kept going to her at night and didn't even sleep. I'd only come in to read more and get myself more informed. But overall I feel she is happy because I have given her lots of attention and done everything I could to make her comfortable.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

GSD Fan said:


> I hope you will at least consider the advice in this thread. Some of it may have been harsh, but these GSD people love their dogs and the breed. They want the best for their breed and seeing a breeder who does not breed to the best standards angers them. You have to understand that if you going to breed and possibly add more to the animals dieing in shelters and roaming the streets, you MUST make the gain outweigh the risk. You MUST produce dogs that add to the breed and make the breed and dogs better companions or what they are bred for OVERALL.
> 
> The breed and other breeds need more good and ethical breeders and you can become that. However, it takes work and dedication. There are no short cuts.
> 
> What I suggest you do is after this litter, spay and neuter your female and male. As for the puppies, ask a rescue or shelter to help evaluate them and place them in good homes.
> 
> Then, since you had two GSDs, take a look at what goes into ethical and responsible breeding. See if you want to do that. People preach about the bad parts of breeding, but there are good parts that make it worth it to some people.
> 
> As for the people who bashed her or him, please don't be offended by this, but I know what this person is going through being bashed by dog people. What made me change my views on dogs and german shepherds were the people who nice to me. When you bash a person, you end up losing them.


:thumbup: I hope your female makes it through this, but I also hope you'll reconsider breeding- either to do it the right way (there's a ton of threads on here about responsible breeding) or to not do it at all.


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## msvette2u

> Stop treating animals like people. Until you know how I treat my dogs, don't accuse me of being a "irresponsible owner". I don't need to get my pets spayed. It's unnatural and if you're going to treat an animal like a human,* why not go get yourself spayed as well? *If my dogs are going to do something completely natural, big deal.


Most of us do take steps to avoid pregnancy, yes. It's the responsible thing to do unless you're planning to have a baby and are mentally and physically mature enough to have one and are financially stable enough to raise a child. 
You don't see 12yr. olds out having babies because they are not old enough to do so and are not mentally and physically mature enough to, which is akin to your 1yr. old puppy girl having puppies of her own. 
Your logic is flawed.


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## GSDBESTK9

jcojocaru said:


> Bailey is very near the end of her pregnancy. She is at the stage where she will not get up and I cannot even make her get up. She only gets up to go to the bathroom and eat/drink. Just a bit ago she was shivering (for those who don't know, one of the signs that the puppies are nearly on their way, a result of contractions).


This is NOT normal of a pregnancy. We've had females carrying 11 puppies, HUGE as you can imagine, and they could still get up and walk around normal. PLEASE do take your dog to the vet ASAP!


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## jcojocaru

GSD Fan said:


> I hope you will at least consider the advice in this thread. Some of it may have been harsh, but these GSD people love their dogs and the breed. They want the best for their breed and seeing a breeder who does not breed to the best standards angers them. You have to understand that if you going to breed and possibly add more to the animals dieing in shelters and roaming the streets, you MUST make the gain outweigh the risk. You MUST produce dogs that add to the breed and make the breed and dogs better companions or what they are bred for OVERALL.
> 
> The breed and other breeds need more good and ethical breeders and you can become that. However, it takes work and dedication. There are no short cuts.
> 
> What I suggest you do is after this litter, spay and neuter your female and male. As for the puppies, ask a rescue or shelter to help evaluate them and place them in good homes.
> 
> Then, since you had two GSDs, take a look at what goes into ethical and responsible breeding. See if you want to do that. People preach about the bad parts of breeding, but there are good parts that make it worth it to some people.
> 
> As for the people who bashed her or him, please don't be offended by this, but I know what this person is going through being bashed by dog people. What made me change my views on dogs and german shepherds were the people who nice to me. When you bash a person, you end up losing them.


I have definitely considered everything I've been told. For those who think I'm just ignorant and I post to sound smart or whatever... No. I'm here for help and information. About breeding information on mine, I have talked to a professional breeder and he told me mine are working class, that I would have great results from them. He studied and checked their hips and health and said they're great. This wasn't a paid service, so no I didn't get papers or anything. I just went to him because I trust him and I've seen the work he does. He did not tell me to breed them however. 

I am working on all the paperwork and getting prepared as quickly as possible. 

I would never leave puppies in a shelter or on the street. In regards to "selling them", I just wanted to know what I needed exactly, so that whoever wants them will have everything they need to know about them. If it comes to it, I will provide the medical help and then just give them away to people I believe will treat them right for the price of the medical bills alone.


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## ladylaw203

jcojocaru said:


> I am honestly not very sure. I always paid very close attention to my dogs and I have not seen any signs of Bailey being in heat. I keep them together because when I'm not around they're happy together and that's the reason I got two in the first place.
> 
> I am probably going to take her to the vet because it seems more that she's sick to me than anything and I'd rather be safe. But yes I've been with her throughout it all. I kept going to her at night and didn't even sleep. I'd only come in to read more and get myself more informed. But overall I feel she is happy because I have given her lots of attention and done everything I could to make her comfortable.


 
You need to get her to a vet. now. I have had bitches that look like they were going to explode and they still pop up and go outside for a bathroom break.


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## Castlemaid

Carolina and Lisa and Renee above are experienced breeders - please consider their advice and take your female to the vet. Something doesn't sound right.


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## GSD Fan

jcojocaru said:


> I have definitely considered everything I've been told. For those who think I'm just ignorant and I post to sound smart or whatever... No. I'm here for help and information. About breeding information on mine, I have talked to a professional breeder and he told me mine are working class, that I would have great results from them. He studied and checked their hips and health and said they're great. This wasn't a paid service, so no I didn't get papers or anything. I just went to him because I trust him and I've seen the work he does. He did not tell me to breed them however.
> 
> I am working on all the paperwork and getting prepared as quickly as possible.
> 
> I would never leave puppies in a shelter or on the street. In regards to "selling them", I just wanted to know what I needed exactly, so that whoever wants them will have everything they need to know about them. If it comes to it, I will provide the medical help and then just give them away to people I believe will treat them right for the price of the medical bills alone.


Professional breeder? Can you tell us a bit about him? He doesn't sound ethical or breeds up to standard. To check hips, unless he is a vet, he would have sent you to a vet to get their hips OFA'd.

Tell us more about this professional breeder. 

And oh yeah, if you need help with ANYTHING about dogs, feel free to pm me and I will answer to the best of my ability.


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## GSDBESTK9

This is our Tara 3 hours before delivering her puppies, she gave us 10 puppies...


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## martemchik

About the "selling" of the pups, are the parents at least AKC Certified? Do you have any way of getting this littler registered so that the pups will be AKC certified? Even to a very novice dog owner, this is a big deal. Most people will at least want those papers for what its worth and will turn and walk away if you don't have them. I don't want to sound like I'm bashing, but none of what your "friend" did actually means anything. If you have a pedigree of either dog, post it, and people will be able to find a lineage that traces to either working or show lines. In the grand scheme of things, this doesn't mean anything to you as you go about selling your dogs as no true working home will want one and its clear that the show people won't be interested at all. You have made pets, nothing wrong with that, but they are just going to be pets. The hip check he did, without an x-ray is nothing more than what the vet does on a normal visit. This proves nothing in the sense of HD as only severe HD can be felt by the touch, and if either of your dogs had extreme HD at the age of 1 you would have more issues than just a bunch of puppies.

I wish you luck, hopefully you can find homes for these dogs, but sadly the statistics say that 90% of your litter will end up in a shelter at one point in their life. A responsible, loving, pet owner would turn and run the moment they see the parents unless they just want to rescue.


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## msvette2u

ladylaw203 said:


> You need to get her to a vet. now. I have had bitches that look like they were going to explode and they still pop up and go outside for a bathroom break.


Although not a breeder, as a rescuer I've helped a few moms whelp, and what I have learned is that stress can make their labor stop and they become septic when the puppies begin dying. 
If her temperature is up, you do need to get her in immediately - and if she seems stressed, do so as well. Puppies can begin dying and cause the mother to become extremely ill from the subsequent infection.


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## jcojocaru

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> :thumbup: I hope your female makes it through this, but I also hope you'll reconsider breeding- either to do it the right way (there's a ton of threads on here about responsible breeding) or to not do it at all.


Well I wasn't intending to breed them in the first place... I seriously thought Max was absolutely not interested in her, as if she was more a sister and nothing more. I have spent a ton of time with them, and watching them from a distance, and have seen literally no sign of his interest in her. I have taken him to the dog park however, and he didn't care to hide it there.

But after this experience, I am definitely going to take measures to make sure either it doesn't happen again, or it's done correctly. 

I'm sorry to all you who are offended by me, this wasn't intentional. 

To those of you comparing Bailey, a DOG, to a 12 year old child/ HUMAN... Grow up. Go see what happens in the wild and then compare animals to humans again. Obviously these dogs aren't "wild", but they're still animals, not human.


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## msvette2u

Where in WA state are you located??


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

jcojocaru said:


> I have definitely considered everything I've been told. For those who think I'm just ignorant and I post to sound smart or whatever... No. I'm here for help and information. About breeding information on mine, I have talked to a professional breeder and he told me mine are working class, that I would have great results from them. He studied and checked their hips and health and said they're great. This wasn't a paid service, so no I didn't get papers or anything. I just went to him because I trust him and I've seen the work he does. He did not tell me to breed them however.
> 
> I am working on all the paperwork and getting prepared as quickly as possible.
> 
> I would never leave puppies in a shelter or on the street. In regards to "selling them", I just wanted to know what I needed exactly, so that whoever wants them will have everything they need to know about them. If it comes to it, I will provide the medical help and then just give them away to people I believe will treat them right for the price of the medical bills alone.


 
I don't want to take away from the focus of this thread, because as the breeders on here have pointed it- she needs to go the vet ASAP. I hope you're heading there now!

When you do have a chance, please read up on responsible breeding. It sounds like you trusted this person and thought you were getting good advice- but there are a lot of things to consider before breeding. First you need a goal for the breeding- why are you breeding? If the answer isn't to improve the breed, then please don't. You need a male and female with excellent pedigrees that you can trace back several generations, either show or working lines (there's no such thing as working class  ), all of the dogs in the pedigree should have had their hips and elbows xrayed certified and should have titles (could be conformation titles, schutzhund titles, etc). Then you need to have your male and female xrayed and certified and titled themselves and not bred until at least 2 years old. And this is just the start of responsible breeding. As I said, there are many threads on this from people way more experienced than I am. Please read them and good luck.


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## msvette2u

jcojocaru said:


> To those of you comparing Bailey, a DOG, to a 12 year old child/ HUMAN... Grow up. Go see what happens in the wild and then compare animals to humans again. Obviously these dogs aren't "wild", but they're still animals, not human.


Just because they "can" doesn't mean they "should".
If your litter turns into a disaster for mom and puppies you'll see what I mean. 
I find it somewhat ironic for a 21yr. old with an "accidental" litter to be telling grownups to "grow up"


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## qbchottu

jcojocaru said:


> Well I wasn't intending to breed them in the first place... I seriously thought Max was absolutely not interested in her, *as if she was more a sister and nothing more*.





> they're still animals, not human.


Seriously?


----------



## Josie/Zeus

msvette 2 U - just back off, really. It's a very stressful time for the people and dogs involved. Your constant need of attacking him on this board is not helping him any. 

The deed is done. Hope for the best outcome and prepare for the worst.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

jcojocaru said:


> Well I wasn't intending to breed them in the first place... I seriously thought Max was absolutely not interested in her, as if she was more a sister and nothing more. I have spent a ton of time with them, and watching them from a distance, and have seen literally no sign of his interest in her. I have taken him to the dog park however, and he didn't care to hide it there.
> 
> But after this experience, I am definitely going to take measures to make sure either it doesn't happen again, or it's done correctly.
> 
> I'm sorry to all you who are offended by me, this wasn't intentional.
> 
> To those of you comparing Bailey, a DOG, to a 12 year old child/ HUMAN... Grow up. Go see what happens in the wild and then compare animals to humans again. Obviously these dogs aren't "wild", but they're still animals, not human.


 
As you've stated yourself, dogs are not humans and you've learned this the hard way that they don't view each other as sister/brother, mother/son, and even if they are blood related they will still mate with each other.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Why are you still here? Put the dog in the car and drive to the vet NOW!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

jcojocaru said:


> Well I wasn't intending to breed them in the first place... I seriously thought Max was absolutely not interested in her, as if she was more a sister and nothing more. I have spent a ton of time with them, and watching them from a distance, and have seen literally no sign of his interest in her.


I'm sorry, but it sounds like you DID plan to breed them:



jcojocaru said:


> This will be my very first time with this experience and I am looking forward to it. I've been looking forward to this day for quite a while now and it is finally here!


By now I guess you realize that her being his sister makes absolutely no difference to him whatsoever. You're trying to assign human morals to an animal, and it just doesn't work that way. He'd breed with his mother or his daughter too, just so you know. As long as it's a female, it won't matter to him that they're related. 



> To those of you comparing Bailey, a DOG, to a 12 year old child/ HUMAN... Grow up. Go see what happens in the wild and then compare animals to humans again. Obviously these dogs aren't "wild", but they're still animals, not human.


I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying she's like a person, they're trying to explain your puppy's age and level of development using the equivalent in human terrms, so that you can understand why it's a bad idea to breed to have bred her so young. She is not mature enough, that's all they were saying.

Anyway, best wishes - I hope she's okay.


----------



## msvette2u

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying she's like a person, *they're trying to explain your puppy's age and level of development using the equivalent in human terrms, so that you can understand why it's a bad idea to breed to have bred her so young. She is not mature enough, that's all they were saying.*
> 
> Anyway, best wishes - I hope she's okay.


This. And if that's "attacking" in some people's opinion, I'm sorry but it needed to be said.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Vet? Now?


----------



## jcojocaru

msvette2u said:


> Just because they "can" doesn't mean they "should".
> If your litter turns into a disaster for mom and puppies you'll see what I mean.
> I find it somewhat ironic for a 21yr. old with an "accidental" litter to be telling grownups to "grow up"



I've told people who compare animals to humans to grow up my entire life. Just because I ended up with an "accidental" (not unwanted) litter doesn't mean a person who compares animals to humans are more grown up than me. I hate the fact that everyone's heart breaks for the dog that died or is sick etc, and then there's people dying of hunger, from war, from crime etc all over the world yet nobody seems to care about them. 

So, I know, Ironic that I value human life so much more than that of a pet.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Why are you still here? Put the dog in the car and drive to the vet NOW!


Seriously!! From what you posted, your female is NOT right. Please take her to a vet now or you can loose her!


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Why are you not responding to the breeders who told you to take the dog to the vet?


----------



## LaRen616

jcojocaru said:


> I hate the fact that everyone's heart breaks for the dog that died or is sick etc, and then there's people dying of hunger, from war, from crime etc all over the world yet nobody seems to care about them.
> 
> So, I know, Ironic that I value human life so much more than that of a pet.


The fact that your heart doesn't break over a sick or dead dog makes me feel like you shouldn't own a dog. They way you are talking about animals, as if they are just an animal makes me sick. My animals are my family. 

My heart breaks for people and animals, not just one or the other, it breaks for both.


----------



## jcojocaru

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm sorry, but it sounds like you DID plan to breed them:
> 
> 
> 
> By now I guess you realize that her being his sister makes absolutely no difference to him whatsoever. You're trying to assign human morals to an animal, and it just doesn't work that way. He'd breed with his mother or his daughter too, just so you know. As long as it's a female, it won't matter to him that they're related.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying she's like a person, they're trying to explain your puppy's age and level of development using the equivalent in human terrms, so that you can understand why it's a bad idea to breed to have bred her so young. She is not mature enough, that's all they were saying.
> 
> Anyway, best wishes - I hope she's okay.



Well by "being like a sister" I was trying to prove my point that I've seen no interest in her from him at all, ever. But the moment I get to a dog park with him it happens with others. 

I didn't plan to breed this early. I was still learning and it just happened. 

Although I feel there's a different issue, not that she's pregnant... I think she's sick. so I'm going to take her to a vet now.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Good! Log off. Go to the vet.


----------



## jcojocaru

LaRen616 said:


> The fact that your heart doesn't break over a sick or dead dog makes me feel like you shouldn't own a dog. They way you are talking about animals, as if they are just an animal makes me sick.
> 
> My heart breaks for people and animals, not just one or the other, it breaks for both.



That's not a fact... I didn't say I don't care or feel bad for a animal in pain. Just that I feel much worse when I see it in humanity. I feel bad just to see a bird run into a window. But I value human life far more than that of an animal, you have me misunderstood however.


----------



## qbchottu

Trying to hold my tongue with this one... 

Take your dog to the vet immediately instead of wasting your time responding to people on the forum. Go to the vet, get her checked out and come back to let us know what happened later.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

jcojocaru said:


> I've told people who compare animals to humans to grow up my entire life.


Nobody is comparing animals to humans but you, by thinking that he wouldn't breed with her because she's his sister. 

Please take your dog to the vet.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

jcojocaru said:


> That's not a fact... I didn't say I don't care or feel bad for a animal in pain. Just that I feel much worse when I see it in humanity. I feel bad just to see a bird run into a window. But I value human life far more than that of an animal, you have me misunderstood however.


 
Seriously?? You think that by sticking around here and trying to tell us how you feel is helping your female???


----------



## msvette2u

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying she's like a person,* they're trying to explain *your puppy's age and level of development using the equivalent in human terrms, so that you can understand why it's a bad idea to breed to have bred her so young. She is not mature enough, that's all they were saying.
> 
> Anyway, best wishes - I hope she's okay.


Trying to explain in terms you might understand is not "comparing".

I hope the dog is okay too. Only the vet will know.
Where in WA state are you? 
Don't worry about answering now, answer when you come home.


----------



## jetscarbie

Sounds to me as OP is saying she "may not" be pregnant but sick instead.

OP, please, I beg of you....please take your little girl to the vet so you will know for sure. I've read all your previous post in other threads...and looked at your pictures....I can tell how much you love her. A vet will be able to assist you if she is pregnant....the vet can help you prepare for the new litter of pups.


----------



## martemchik

I'm having such a hard time being nice here, I probably shouldn't even post as this has nothing to do with his current situation.

The sad part is that you just compared war/hunger/whatever else in humanity to the current problem of the pet overpopulation. Problems that would take billions of dollars to solve (and have billions of dollars spent on them a year) to an issue that could've been solved by 2 $100 operations. But I'll explain it to you in a way that made me realize I will not stud my dog unless a responsible breeder asks me since he is being titled and what not.

For each one of those 10 puppies that I hope your girl has and survive, there are 100 or more dogs put down on a daily basis in shelters all over the United States. Sadly, your pups will not go to caring owners, they will go to someone that thinks they want a dog, and think they want a GSD, but CAN'T pay $1000+ for a dog, which will end up costing them at least that in vet bills in the first five years and should cost them around $400 in the first 2 months of vet visits.

I completely support good breeders and everything they do to keep a breed alive and healthy, but the fact of the matter is that there are thousands of needy dogs that end up without a home because people choose breeders over rescues. And I did this too so I have no problem with that happening. But what makes your dogs special? Why do they need to produce puppies? What makes them better than any of the pets or working dogs or show dogs on this forum?

I don't care for your answer, just think about those things. Why add to the issue? You talk about war/hunger and everything else, so why are you adding to an issue that is much closer to home? One person can't help the problems you talk about that exist in humanity, but one person can definately help the pet overpopulation problem.


----------



## Jax08

*Please take your girl to a vet immediately. *

Out of anything else said...that is the IMPORTANT part right now!!!


----------



## GSDBESTK9

Please let us know what the vet said. I'm praying for this girl.


----------



## ILOVEGSD

jcojocaru said:


> I've told people who compare animals to humans to grow up my entire life.


We are animals- and the worst part about that is we have the ability for rational thought, something we are not sure other animals have or posses to the extent we do, and yet look at the evil we knowingly commit. Compare animals to humans, heaven forbid! 



jcojocaru said:


> Just because I ended up with an "accidental" (not unwanted) litter doesn't mean a person who compares animals to humans are more grown up than me.


No, of course not- humans, as you so eloquently point out are the superior animal with far superior intellect. its the dogs fault?



jcojocaru said:


> I hate the fact that everyone's heart breaks for the dog that died or is sick etc, and then there's people dying of hunger, from war, from crime etc all over the world yet nobody seems to care about them.


Nobody cares? Please demonstrate this? Would it be the millions donated each year to find a cure for disease? Would it be the doctors who give their time, freely, to assist in foreign nations that are underdeveloped? Would it be the millions donated each year from people to fight hunger or a catastrophe that pops up in a nation like Indonesia, Turkey, Japan, Haiti, or Chile? I mean honestly- quantify your answer... There is evil in the world, sure, but plenty of people care, and plenty of people are trying to end it.



jcojocaru said:


> So, I know, Ironic that I value human life so much more than that of a pet.


Ironic, not likely- pathetic, surely! All life should be valued- especially life that has an inability to speak for itself.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

jetscarbie said:


> Sounds to me as OP is saying she "may not" be pregnant but sick instead.


No, I think she's saying that she's not taking her to the vet because she's pregnant, she's taking her to the vet because she's sick. Although, it may be that she's not "sick" per se, she could be having complications from the pregnancy. In any case, I hope everything checks out, and Bailey is okay.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No, I think she's saying that she's not taking her to the vet because she's pregnant, she's taking her to the vet because she's sick. Although, it may be that she's not "sick" per se, she could be having complications from the pregnancy. In any case,* I hope everything checks out, and Bailey is okay*.


I hope so too and I hope he lets us know.


----------



## Konotashi

jcojocaru said:


> Well I wasn't intending to breed them in the first place...* I seriously thought Max was absolutely not interested in her, as if she was more a sister and nothing more. *I have spent a ton of time with them, and watching them from a distance, and have seen literally no sign of his interest in her. I have taken him to the dog park however, and he didn't care to hide it there.
> 
> To those of you comparing Bailey, a DOG, to a 12 year old child/ HUMAN... Grow up. Go see what happens in the wild and then compare animals to humans again. Obviously these dogs aren't "wild", but they're still animals, not human.


So in the first half of your post, you say he thinks of her like a sister - which is what humans do. Even littermates, sire/daughter, dam/son, etc. will breed if given the opportunity. So now YOU'RE the one humanizing dogs. 

While in the second half, you say not to humanize dogs. 

The way you measure dog years is the first two years equates to 25 human years. (This is based on when a dog is mature enough to breed). Every year after that counts as 4 human years. 
Your dog is hardly a year old. 25 cut in half is 12.5, so yes, it's like you're 'breeding' a 12-13 year old girl. 

And guess what? Whether spaying/neutering is natural or not, it saves lives. Know what else? My own mother is 'spayed.' 

Also, please don't call your dogs working lines unless that's what they are. Unless you have their pedigrees, they are pet lines. 

Unless you have pedigrees, know everything about their pedigrees, what goals you have in mind for paring them up, what you'd like to produce, the dogs both have great health/temperament, etc., then get them altered after you find the puppies a home. I'm not much educated in the way of breeding, but I would *think *that after a puppy has puppies, and the pups rob her body of what she needs to grow, it would be unsafe to breed her later. 
Here are some other pet line GSDs I've found in the shelter. These are just the ones that made it to the euthanasia list. 




























This female, you could tell (in person), was not a poorly bred dog. She was dumped at 9 years old, did not make it out of the shelter alive.


----------



## qbchottu

Well put Konotashi. Those pictures are heartbreaking


----------



## Holmeshx2

Despite all the debate I for one would REALLY like to know what the vet said as I'm literally sick over here thinking of everything that might be going on with her making her shake an not want to get up.


----------



## msvette2u

Most people breeding out of selfishness cannot relate their situation to other dogs dying in shelters.
I don't know why, but they just either refuse to or cannot do it


----------



## Konotashi

Holmeshx2 said:


> Despite all the debate I for one would REALLY like to know what the vet said as I'm literally sick over here thinking of everything that might be going on with her making her shake an not want to get up.


Same here.... 



msvette2u said:


> Most people breeding out of selfishness cannot relate their situation to other dogs dying in shelters.
> I don't know why, but they just either refuse to or cannot do it


Because most people think they can find loving, forever homes for the puppies. Even reputable breeders' dogs who make puppy buyers sign a contract stating that if they can't keep the dog for any reason, the dog is to be sent back to them, wind up in shelters. Given, it's far less common than BYB GSDs, it still happens. Personally, I've only seen 1 case of a dog (pedigree, parents were SchH2 and 3, health tested, etc.) at a rescue.


----------



## Castlemaid

*WARNING: This is a BREEDING section, and the posters will STOP attacks on the OP.*

Stay on topic with HELP, not criticism and guilt tripping. And some people laren and others . . . are better off keeping their thoughts about the situation to themselves.


----------



## ladylaw203

I agree. Folks enough with the bashing. The dog is bred and it cannot be undone. Hows about we try to help her with the dog at this point and hope all goes well with her


----------



## Lilie

Has the breeding dates been given? Do we know how far along the bitch is? I looked, but couldn't find any information regarding the actual breeding dates.


----------



## Konotashi

Lilie said:


> Has the breeding dates been given? Do we know how far along the bitch is? I looked, but couldn't find any information regarding the actual breeding dates.


Said she didn't know exactly when she was bred, but assumes she's very close.


----------



## Jax08

I hope like **** the OP saw the GO TO VET posts against all the crap that should have been reserved for after the GO TO VET.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

jcojocaru said:


> Well by "being like a sister" I was trying to prove my point that I've seen no interest in her from him at all, ever. But the moment I get to a dog park with him it happens with others.
> 
> I didn't plan to breed this early. I was still learning and it just happened.
> 
> Although I feel there's a different issue, not that she's pregnant... I* think she's sick. so I'm going to take her to a vet now.*


Jax, he posted this just before he signed off - so hopefully he is at the vet now.

Nancy, he doesn't know when the mating took place.


----------



## Lilie

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Nancy, he doesn't know when the mating took place.


Perhaps the vet will be able to tell him when to expect the bitch to whelp. I hope all is well with her.


----------



## lhczth

*Just to support the two moderators that posted, this is an official administration warning that the you will either stay on topic or not post at all. Chasing the OP away from the board with the attacks will serve no purpose and definitely do nothing to make sure this bitch and her puppies receive the best care we can offer via the internet. *

*ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## jcojocaru

Okay so according to the Vet, Bailey is pregnant, but healthy. He said she is very near her due date but I cannot afford x-rays at the moment...

Do not jump on me and judge me that I should not have dogs because I can't afford anything at the moment... I've had a terrible last 3 months that have put me in this situation (and no it's not due to irresponsibility or carelessness... just extremely bad luck, not talking about the dogs either).

I will do everything I can to make sure Bailey and the pups get the proper care... including selling my car....


----------



## Emoore

What was the vet's diagnosis for why she wouldn't get up and why was she shivering? Was the vet able to tell how far along she was?


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

That is awesome news that Bailey is healthy. What a relief. Thank you for posting.


----------



## Jax08

Emoore said:


> What was the vet's diagnosis for why she wouldn't get up and why was she shivering? Was the vet able to tell how far along she was?


????


----------



## jcojocaru

Emoore said:


> What was the vet's diagnosis for why she wouldn't get up and why was she shivering? Was the vet able to tell how far along she was?



He said she's really tired and needs to rest. The shivering was very short, I guess I thought too much of it. I had to move Bailey from the house outside in her large dog house and it was really cold at first, and the vet said that may be why she was shivering (the shivering only lasted a few moments, but of course I got worried and I did a quick online search and that's how I found it's apparently a sign of pregnancy...? I guess it was wrong). 

I put a heater into her dog house, the moment I put her in, in a safe spot where she cannot reach it and she is warm. The shivering was gone immediately. 

The vet said he can't tell exactly how far along Bailey is since I cannot afford an x-ray or any other means to test, but to be ready and expect within these next 2 days.


----------



## jcojocaru

By the way, Bailey CAN get up. All I said is she doesn't want to, unless it's to go to the bathroom or eat.


----------



## Castlemaid

If she is about to have her pups, she should be inside where she is warm and you can keep an eye on her.


----------



## GSDGunner

Castlemaid said:


> If she is about to have her pups, she should be inside where she is warm and you can keep an eye on her.


Ditto that! Does she live outside?


----------



## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> Ditto that! Does she live outside?


No, it's not a normal little dog house... It's actually about 8'x8'x8'. Plenty of space, built like a house. Lots of comfort and there is heating as well. I wanted to make sure they have the best "living quarters" as possible. I understand german shepherds are obviously a lot warmer than me in the cold but that didn't stop me from installing a heater.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

I don't think you want the puppies to be born outside though. I'm sure the breeders can provide the best information for a set up, or you can find threads for that here.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

When you say built like a house, does it have walls on all four sides, a roof, and a door? I'm not sure, but I don't think puppies can regulate their own temp? (dont quote me on that) 

Selzer keeps her dogs outside but they have the puppies inside I have gathered from her posts.


----------



## onyx'girl

She may roll on her pups/suffocating them, you should have a whelping box or at least a kiddie pool with rounded edges for the next couple weeks. Is the ground cold? 

What are you feeding her? She should be getting fed more and a good quality kibble or raw right now and while she's nursing.


----------



## msvette2u

jcojocaru said:


> He said she's really tired and needs to rest. The shivering was very short, I guess I thought too much of it. I had to move Bailey from the house outside in her large dog house and it was really cold at first, and the vet said that may be why she was shivering (the shivering only lasted a few moments, but of course I got worried and I did a quick online search and that's how I found it's apparently a sign of pregnancy...? I guess it was wrong).
> 
> I put a heater into her dog house, the moment I put her in, in a safe spot where she cannot reach it and she is warm. The shivering was gone immediately.
> 
> The vet said he can't tell exactly how far along Bailey is since I cannot afford an x-ray or any other means to test, but to be ready and expect within these next 2 days.


Where are you located? It would help to know, so I could possibly set you up with some supplies. 
If closer to Seattle, someone over there may be able to help. I am in Eastern WA.
You will need to get some good quality food (Kirkland from Costco for instance) if she's not already eating a good diet.


----------



## msvette2u

jcojocaru said:


> No, it's not a normal little dog house... It's actually about 8'x8'x8'. Plenty of space, built like a house. Lots of comfort and there is heating as well. I wanted to make sure they have the best "living quarters" as possible. I understand german shepherds are obviously a lot warmer than me in the cold but that didn't stop me from installing a heater.


Puppies cannot regulate their own temps. 
An immature mom may be more concerned about herself than her puppies.

Be very careful with some heaters out there. I know of fires started (and puppies lost) by putting heaters that could set bedding and what-not on fire.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Please take offers of help. If you do not want to post on the forum. Send a PM. People really do care about your girl and her pups.


----------



## ladylaw203

FYI Pups need a heating pad the first few days. What kind of heater? dogs can chew cords and heaters produce carbon Monoxide. The dog needs to be in the house with you. If you have no whelping box,get a kiddie pool. They are cheap. If it is cold enough that a German Shepherd shivers it is too cold to whelp pups out there. 
You need to start feeding your dog yogurt NOW in order for her to produce enough milk. The vet should have been able to give you a ballpark idea when she should whelp


----------



## msvette2u

Well I'm not asking for an address  A general vicinity would work...!


----------



## jcojocaru

Yes it has four walls and a roof with a door. No openings through which breezes can squeeze through. The heater is placed in a safe position (above the floor) where Bailey cannot reach it, and it won't catch anything on fire. I put a soft rug for her to lay on. I can take a picture if anyone wants to see..

I live in Renton


----------



## msvette2u

ladylaw203 said:


> FYI Pups need a heating pad the first few days. What kind of heater? dogs can chew cords and heaters produce carbon Monoxide. The dog needs to be in the house with you. If you have no whelping box,get a kiddie pool. They are cheap. If it is cold enough that a German Shepherd shivers it is too cold to whelp pups out there.
> You need to start feeding your dog yogurt NOW in order for her to produce enough milk. The vet should have been able to give you a ballpark idea when she should whelp


Not "heating pad". 
A heat mat designed for dogs might be okay but not a heat pad as in a human heat pad. 

And you cannot have it under them the whole way, leave a spot for them to wiggle away and off of it.

Farm Innovators Medium Plastic Heated Pet Mat

Something like that. I have a number of these actually and again, could loan some things to you if you're within 40-50 miles of me.


----------



## jcojocaru

ladylaw203 said:


> FYI Pups need a heating pad the first few days. What kind of heater? dogs can chew cords and heaters produce carbon Monoxide. The dog needs to be in the house with you. If you have no whelping box,get a kiddie pool. They are cheap. If it is cold enough that a German Shepherd shivers it is too cold to whelp pups out there.
> You need to start feeding your dog yogurt NOW in order for her to produce enough milk. The vet should have been able to give you a ballpark idea when she should whelp


The cords are nowhere near the floor, I have them hanging from above and out of range. I have a kiddie pool which I can put her into. Does it matter what kind of yogurt?


----------



## ladylaw203

jcojocaru said:


> The cords are nowhere near the floor, I have them hanging from above and out of range. I have a kiddie pool which I can put her into. Does it matter what kind of yogurt?


 
plain yogurt. why cant you bring her inside? You need to be with her for each delivery. You cannot watch her from the house and be able to tell if she in labor,having trouble,a breach birth etc etc. If she is not with you, you cannot time her. Too long between pups ,a shutdown in labor, all kinds of things YOU need to see in case she needs a vet. She is young


----------



## msvette2u

I'd add, get the whole milk fat yogurt, not low- or non- milk fat.
Also cottage cheese is good for adding calcium.
Some rescues I know add powdered Esbilac or other puppy formula to their nursing bitches' food for extra nutrition. 

What food are you feeding currently?


----------



## Lilie

What did the vet say her temp. was?


----------



## Holmeshx2

Im sure you feel jumped on already from the entire thread so please don't be put off by this. Right now I could care less if your dog is an outside dog however, with the time of year the puppies in general should not be outside even in a shed type house. With her being young and a first time litter you need to be there around the clock AT LEAST the first few days so unless you're planning on moving your bed out there and being there non stop you really need to bring the dog inside until she gives birth and the first few days to make sure her whelping goes smoothly and to make sure she is taking to the pups and they are all doing ok. Also, I know things like work and school play a factor but you really need to be there 24hrs a day the first few days just to make sure everything is ok if you need to go somewhere you need to have someone else who can take over in your absence. Make sure she is ok with them being around while she has puppies (she may be fine with them now then decide she doesn't want them around her puppies) 

Have you started taking her temperature? If not you should start taking it at least once a day you can use a regular people thermometer. What was her temp at the vet? Also, if she's ready to give birth the vet should have been able to feel her belly and give a *rough* estimate of how many pups did he give you any ideas at all?

I can sympathize that money is tight but thank you for at least taking her in and getting her checked out and letting us know.


----------



## ladylaw203

I feed Puppy Gold to my lactating bitches as well. Petco sells Puppy Gold which is wonderful. enough yogurt means at least 1/4 cup each feeding which should be three a day after whelping. This is to prevent eclampsia( milk fever). 
And of course, this depends on how many pups and how she has been fed up to this point. Many factors involved


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## jcojocaru

Sorry everyone... I just lost my internet service... So i'm writing from my phone. I have limited data though so I can't too often. Thank you all for the advice and support. I'm doing everything I can to act according to it. I will bring Bailey inside. I don't have a job anymore (one of the things I lost in this terrible 3 month span) and am about to drop out of school (nursing program). so I will definitely have time to watch her. I will try to keep up with your posts, but my data is near it's limit. Please don't judge me, what have happened these last 3 months were out of my power and I lost a lot. I can't deal with more anger, hatred, etc so if you have nothing helpful, just keep it to yourselves. I'm not looking for compassion or donations, I brought this issue upon my self. So thank you, those who are helping and giving me advice. That's why I came here.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm glad Bailey is ok, please please keep posting , asking questions if you need to, The breeders here will help in any way they can.

I do agree, she needs to be inside and I see your bringing her inside, this is GOOD..

Do you know about taking her temp? keeping up with that??


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## onyx'girl

If you have a breeder(any breed) or a rescue near you that is responsible that may be able to mentor you during this time, *please ask for help*. I sure hope it goes well for you and that you will update us(you know everyone who posted here is concerned!!!)

*Please ask for help *from someone who knows what they're doing. You should be able to find someone fairly easily, call a rescue, a vet who knows of a breeder near you, or a pet store may know of someone.


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## jcojocaru

Yes i'm keeping up to date with her temperature. She seems to be doing well, and I do have a friend who will help. He is experienced and educated on these matters and has been breeding for a while.


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## onyx'girl

Is he going to help you during the whelp? That is what I meant, not just asking advice but being there to help your girl so she doesn't lose any pups or her own life.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

onyx'girl said:


> If you have a breeder(any breed) or a rescue near you that is responsible that may be able to mentor you during this time, *please ask for help*. I sure hope it goes well for you and that you will update us(you know everyone who posted here is concerned!!!)
> 
> *Please ask for help *from someone who knows what they're doing. You should be able to find someone fairly easily, call a rescue, a vet who knows of a breeder near you, or a pet store may know of someone.


This could be a time for a win-win for the puppies if you could find a local reputable rescue to work with in placing them. 

Please take care of mom. Would hate for more losses for you in this year.


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## Holmeshx2

just for my own nosey purposes whats her temp? You don't need to answer I know you've been harassed enough but I'd like to know 

Thank you for the update and THANK YOU for bringing her in for the whelping process definitely an important move. Please don't feel like you are taking a hand out for some help I'm not sure how close to msvette u r but if within range please take her offer of help it's not about you it's about your girl and her pups I know when you come under fire the defenses go up but please don't let that get in the way of some help and it sounds like she has some stuff that can help you guys during this time. 

This is a side note but please don't feel like you shouldn't charge a fee because of the way she got pregnant. Puppies given away for free are often disposed of just as easily. A fee to help you cover the vetting (worming, first shots, proper nutrition for mom and pups) is not unheard of and will help some to bring in better people looking to adopt the pups.

Also, I know in your first post you asked and not sure anyone answered you however as far as selling them you want to make sure they are checked by a vet shortly after birth (breeders can say more but I'd say within first few days) make sure they get their first set of shots around 7-8 weeks make sure they get wormed every 2 weeks so they go home worm free. You want to charge a fee for the pups so the people are a bit more serious and you want to make a contract that the people contact you if they cant keep the pup for any reason along with some other things any rescue or breeder can help you with a general contract. You want to screen the adopters to make sure they can and will take care of the pup and not just dump it on someone or a shelter when the puppy cuteness wears off. Theres other things I'm probably not thinking of right now but just wanted to start you off at least.


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## sitstay

There is a very reputable rescue right in the OP's back yard, so to speak. They would be a wonderful resource right now, and when it comes time to place these puppies responsibly. 
Sheilah


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## _Crystal_

I wish you good luck for these puppies. I hope you spay, or at least the very least watch for heat next time. I'm so sorry for your losses recently, and I wish you luck!


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## msvette2u

I'm too far to loan supplies, really. There's a rescue who deals just in GSD's closer to the OP. Not sure if they'd help.
I do think using a rescue to help place them responsibly (and we do s/n at 8 weeks, I think others do too) would be the best solution. 

There's a number of ways you can place so if you do need help as the time comes please let me know.


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## Kittilicious

I just read all 12 pages in one shot - I think I held my breath the entire time. 
Going to be thinking of mama & her puppies!


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## Zisso

Hoping the best for your pup and babies. 

I am only about 45 minutes or so away from you. I have no real experience with welping puppies but if you get stressed out I am willing to come help any way I can, just send a PM.


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## shadow mum

Hoping for the best for you!!!


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## Snickelfritz

How's mom? Any puppies yet?


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## jetscarbie

I am glad you took your girl to the vet. I hope you take some of the member's advice on here for help. There are some experienced people on here.

Some mommy's do fine delieving pups and I am hoping yours is one of them. Find her somewhere in your home that is safe for her to have them. Dont' let any other animals around her when she is having birth or afterwards. Mom's are very protective of their pups. I know I have read on here where members put mom on a leash when they take her outside to pee/poop at all times. You have to watch her like a hawk.

I would link to other threads that list supplies you need...but you said your data was limited. Maybe one of the breeders on here will list a supply list on this thread for you so you will know what to have on hand.

I wish you and mommy dog all the luck. Please keep us updated on what happens.


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## Emoore

msvette2u said:


> I'm too far to loan supplies, really. There's a rescue who deals just in GSD's closer to the OP. Not sure if they'd help.
> I do think using a rescue to help place them responsibly (and we do s/n at 8 weeks, I think others do too) would be the best solution.
> .


If he places the puppies through rescue, he won't get a dime and they'll lean hard on him to place the mama. I think he'd rather have the money and no pressure.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Or they'll lean on him to spay the mom. Or help to pay for the mom's spay. But he won't know unless he contacts them and talks to them - I don't want to guess what another rescue would or wouldn't do. 

I am guessing this is the group: Washington German Shepherd Rescue
Petfinder page: Washington German Shepherd Rescue
Facebook page: Washington German Shepherd Rescue | Facebook
E-mail: washingtonshepherds at yahoo.com 

No money but knowledge that the puppies are placed well, vetted and have a lifetime take back policy is a good deal!


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## Emoore

I'm sorry, I meant spay the mom, not place. I'm only about two sips into my coffee. :crazy:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

:rofl: Load up, woman!


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## msvette2u

Emoore said:


> If he places the puppies through rescue, he won't get a dime and they'll lean hard on him to place the mama. I think he'd rather have the money and no pressure.


(I know you meant spay the mama)

What we typically do when we have a situation like this, and we had one last year, where the owner is a good owner but just failed to spay mama, we took responsibility for the puppies care (deworm, vaccines, deworm, deworm, etc) and then s/n at 8 weeks. Mama can be spayed at 8 weeks as well, and we did that for the owner.

That's hardly a bad thing, since in our case the owner was financially strapped (and I think this OP may be as well). The puppies will need dewormed starting at 2 weeks of age. The bills start piling up quickly for the puppies let alone mama -_ if done right._

You have to get the mama on a high protein food and lots of supplements as mentioned. At 3-4 weeks the puppies will want to nibble on mama's food and you will want to start giving them softened kibble as well.
Since a GSD can have upwards of 8-10 puppies, it will add up quickly, again with wormers and vaccines in addition to the food and doing laundry or changing out bedding depending on what you're using. 

I have no idea of the OPs financial situation is but she mentioned she lost her job a few pages back and may have to sell her car.
So, enlisting the assistance of a rescue may be to her benefit as well as the dogs'.


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## _Crystal_

How are the puppies? Suspense is killing me!


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## selzer

Has she had the puppies yet?

What is her temperature?

I do keep dogs outside, during the day when I am gone. Most of them come in at night, and whelping females and puppies are kept inside, though I have an indoor/outdoor run where puppies and dam can go outside weather permitting. But I am not totally against keeping a dog outside. But during whelping, they need to be kept warm and stress needs to be limited on the dam. So you need to find a quite corner to put the kiddie pool or whatever, and get newspapers gathered, and keep everyone out of there, but you. 

I understand money is tight. a few things I would get: a cheap digital thermometer from the drug store; and a cheap kitchen scale from say, WalMart; also a bottle of alcohol. I agree with feeding her yogurt, cottage cheese, vanilla ice cream while whelping, and eggs (I hard boil them), raw chicken is also good.

The digital thermometer to check her temp twice a day. You want to notice when her progesterone causes the temp to dip seriously, that will help you know exactly when. But you also want to watch the temp for a few days to ensure there is no infection setting in. If she retains a puppy or even a placenta, infection will set in, and it can kill her. The digital thermometer can also be used to measure the pup's temperature prior to supplementing them if it is necessary -- let's hope it is not. It is not hard to tube feed, the vet would have to show you how, and they can provide what is necessary, but let's hope it is not necessary.

The scale is to measure the pups' weight. Twice a day check their weight. They will likely lose weight for 12-24 hours, while they are getting cholosterum from the dam. But then, they should start gaining. Two days of loss together means the pup may be in trouble. Also when the pup is cold, or off by themselves, the digestive tract will shut down. Feeding them at this point will kill them. So if you do have a pup off by themselves, warm them with your body heat until they are more lively and then put them on the dam. Alcohol to clean scale and thermometer. 

I hope all is well. Let us know.


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## jcojocaru

New problem... No puppies yet... I really feel like I may have gotten a misdiagnosis... Signs of pregnancy are there, but she started shivering again this time in warmth! I had my friend come by and he can't tell for sure but he thinks she's bloating, but is confused himself... I am about to take her to a different vet. I hope she's just sick and not beyond repair... Thanks for the support everyone.


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## selzer

My dogs will pant heavily, and may shudder when they are having contractions. They are usually not shivering though.

We on here cannot see what is going on with your dog. I am glad you have an experienced friend who can help. But if there is a doubt take her in to the vet. It would be helpful to know what the temperature is. Do you have a thermometer in the house? Use it. Buy the family a new one when you get a chance. You need to know what her temperature is.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

Hope that your girl is ok and that there are no complications.


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## GSDBESTK9

Let us know what happens.


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## jcojocaru

There was no misdiagnosis. According to the vet, Bailey is healthy and pregnant. Her temperature is about 100.15. I cannot afford further tests beyond the checkup unfortunately.


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## jetscarbie

Maybe she is getting close to having the pups?????

I would put her somewhere quite and away from your male dog and other animals. I would also keep a very close eye on her. Do you have a spare room or a good size closet to make a birthing place for her? It's my understanding that some of the signs are....close to birth, female will start trying to nest. She may dig, pace, or shred stuff. She may start licking her private area a lot or constantly turning and looking at that area. Some sites say that she may start turing in circles and lifting her back tail like she is fixing to poop. Lots of articles say to never let them go outside without a leash on. She may have a pup out in the yard.

I found a detailed article on whelping pups. It's pretty detailed. It may help you. I'm not sure how accurate it is.....but at the very least you could print it out and keep it for a reference guide. Closer to the end of the article....it list a puppy timeline. 
Breeding, Whelping, and Rearing Puppies


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## ladylaw203

did you ask what an xray would cost? It is cheap down here. If she only has a pup or two in there there can be whelping problems. If your friend that is going to help you cannot tell the difference between pregnancy and bloat I dont know. At this point, it should be obvious that she is pregnant.


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## trudy

I didn't see anyone else post this BUT Very Important, separate her from the male!!!!! My friend's male killed her 9 pups at 3 weeks of age, they had been kept apart and then they were less cautious and mom went out to pee and dad killed them, punctured them all!!!! This may or may not be normal but it happened and I know for a fact so dad must be kept away!!!! Only allow interactions well supervised and only if he is very obedient with great call offs..her male while obedient didn't stop!!!

Also he will bug your female and they might fight, and mom doesn't need an injury as she will be in a more weakened condition..Please bring mom in and give her a quiet, safe area to whelp and then to rear the pups, don't be in a hurry to put her and pups back out, good litters are raised under foot with lots of interaction with the people and house hold things, they hear the TV, vacuum, pots and pans and are then more able to deal with things as they age, read up on socializing things to do with pups and good luck, please keep us updated


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## jcojocaru

I've had them separated from the very beginning. And my friend actually said if she were bloated she would have been dead already unless I got her immediate help at the vet. The only reason he was confused was because she's absolutely inactive for about 3-4 days. Said his females are always active and running around throughout their pregnancy. He tried feeling the stomach of Bailey to see if he could feel any puppies but didn't and due to all that he was just a bit confused but still thought she was just pregnant.


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## GSDGunner

Is there anyway you can post a picture of her so that we can see if she looks pregnant?
I'm just so confused right now.  She definitely wouldn't be suffering from bloat for a few days. She'd likely be dead. Please familiarize yourself with the symptoms of bloat for the future. It's not something that can wait.

I'm also confused by your posts. The vet said she'd be having puppies any day right? Your friend said he doesn't feel any puppies. Is she pregnant or not? 
If she is, have you at least been following all the incredibly helpful advice you've been given? 
I'm sure I'm not the only one concerned at this point.


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## ladylaw203

I am not trying to be ugly but anyone who is experienced can spot a pregnancy this far along as opposed to a bloat. The two do not resemble one another. There are several things to look for such as teats, her stomach will be full low as opposed to the way a bloated dog looks. You need someone other than this individual to help.


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## qbchottu

jcojocaru said:


> He tried feeling the stomach of Bailey to see if he could feel any puppies but didn't


Can you borrow some money or plead to your vet to help you on a compassionate basis (see if you can get a payment plan worked out) to get some xrays done? Are you sure the pups are still alive? This late in the pregnancy, you should feel them wriggling around. Was the vet able to hear heartbeats when he listened with a stethoscope?


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## Stevenzachsmom

jcojocaru said:


> I've had them separated from the very beginning. And my friend actually said if she were bloated she would have been dead already unless I got her immediate help at the vet. The only reason he was confused was because she's absolutely inactive for about 3-4 days. *Said his females are always active and running around throughout their pregnancy.* He tried feeling the stomach of Bailey to see if he could feel any puppies but didn't and due to all that he was just a bit confused but still thought she was just pregnant.


Your friend is right - just as breeders here have said. This doesn't sound right. No doubt you are very concerned. I have no idea how much an x-ray costs, but if any way possible, please try to get one.

Wishing you and Bailey well.


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## Lmilr

qbchottu said:


> This late in the pregnancy, you should feel them wriggling around. Was the vet able to hear heartbeats when he listened with a stethoscope?


Could it be possible though that they can't feel them because there is only one or two pups? Would a low puppy count make them harder to feel even if she is close to her due date?


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## qbchottu

Lmilr said:


> Could it be possible though that they can't feel them because there is only one or two pups? Would a low puppy count make them harder to feel even if she is close to her due date?


Maybe...but you should still be able to feel something and the vet should be able to hear a heartbeat with a steth. If she _does_ have only one or two, she should get xrays even more so and carefully monitor the pregnancy because from what I hear, delivering one or two is harder than delivering more pups than that. Either way, since it's such a high risk pregnancy (immature bitch and *ahem* _other factors_), she should definitely get xrays.


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## GSDGunner

jcojocaru said:


> The vet said he can't tell exactly how far along Bailey is since I cannot afford an x-ray or any other means to test, but to be ready and expect within these next 2 days.


Ok, so this was two days ago. What's the situation now?


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## jcojocaru

ladylaw203 said:


> I am not trying to be ugly but anyone who is experienced can spot a pregnancy this far along as opposed to a bloat. The two do not resemble one another. There are several things to look for such as teats, her stomach will be full low as opposed to the way a bloated dog looks. You need someone other than this individual to help.


No he told me the exact same thing. He just thought she was bloated when I explained over the phone because I did a terrible job explaining. But when he saw for himself (just as you said, the teats and stomach) he was sure she was pregnant and that I'm just overreacting because I'm not used to this. 

And yes I did take all the advice, I have been feeding her yogurt along with dry dog food mixed with canned wet dog food and she's eaten every bit. I put her in a warm room where I can keep watch on her and is far separated from Max. Max has gotten lonely and constantly whines for my attention lol...

An X-Ray here is about 450+tax... I'm currently working on it...

I'll get a picture up soon as I can.


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## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> Ok, so this was two days ago. What's the situation now?


Guess I have to wait until the end of today. If nothing happens... I'll go to the vet and stop worrying about costs... Though I can't afford anything I'd rather not lose her.


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## GSDBESTK9

That is too expensive, we just did a pregnancy x-rays and it was $83.


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## jcojocaru

GSDBESTK9 said:


> That is too expensive, we just did a pregnancy x-rays and it was $83.


Exactly what I thought... Did you possibly have pet health insurance or something like that?


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## qbchottu

Have you called around to other vets in the area? Do price checks on pregnancy xrays with several vets and take her to the cheapest. Xrays prices vary from vet to vet and even city to city.


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## NancyJ

I don't have health insurance and I think any x-rays I have had are around 80-100 if sedation is not required and then extra for any sedation (but for what this is, it should not be)


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## jcojocaru

qbchottu said:


> Have you called around to other vets in the area? Do price checks on pregnancy xrays with several vets and take her to the cheapest. Xrays prices vary from vet to vet and even city to city.


I got it from the vet I went to yesterday. I'll call around and see right now then.


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## jetscarbie

Do you have an estimate on when she mated with your male? Or do you remember when she was in heat?


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## qbchottu

jetscarbie said:


> Do you have an estimate on when she mated with your male? Or do you remember when she was in heat?


OP mentioned previously that the dam might have had a silent heat. Male and female were left unattended when OP was away so it's probably hard to know exactly when it happened...


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## selzer

Are you taking temp every 12 hours. Has it fallen anymore? 

I don't like it that she is reticent to get up, and just wants to lie around. That really is not normal. If she was ready to have puppies, she would be digging and nesting and preparing a spot to have them. Lethargy is something that is very scary. 

What an x-ray will not show is if that litter was in trouble and they died. All it would show is skeletons of puppies and you would be in the same boat. So I guess I am not in the camp that says get an x-ray. 

I would go to a clinic that will do an ultrasound. One where they are known for reproductive health. 

Odie came over from Germany on 12/29 a year ago. On 12/31, 1/1 she was showing signs of bloat. It was really, really bad. She was very pregnant, but with the limited information I had, I did not know when exactly -- she whelped on 1/6, by c-section. Anyhow, she was looking at her stomach and crying in pain, and of course we were having a blizzard, but my choices were limited, I put her in the car and drove 2 hours in a blizzard to get her to the vet. They said that as far along as she was -- yes she was already dropped and had milk, she would not be bloating. But she did have a LOT of gas. She expressed that and seemed to be doing a lot better. They did do an ultra sound and blood work and 900 (holiday after hours) dollars and a bit of passed gas, and another several hours back in the blizzard. 

And five days later, and another blizzard, back there for an ultrasound and emergency c-section. $1100 dollars that time. When they did the ultrasound, it was awesome we were able to watch that, and the surgery. But at least we knew we were dealing with live pups, and not dead pups. I just don't know if you can get that with an x-ray. My vet does not do ultra-sounds. 

Anyway on pins and needles for your bitch, please let us know. Take the temp twice a day. 100.12 is low for an ordinary dog, but high yet for being ready to whelp. It should travel down below 99, probably to 98, and then it will come back up.


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## ladylaw203

Agreed about the ultrasound, however, there is a point in the pregnancy that my vets will not do an ultrasound because they say they cannot see anything due to fluid . At least with an xray, the question of IF will be answered and to a degree,how many. My main concern is a one pup litter in which the pup is huge and a normal delivery is not possible.


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## jcojocaru

Her temperature is now 101.1... She doesn't seem to be in pain though... I gently squeeze around her stomach and press it in (gently...) and she doesn't even seem to notice. So according to your comments I don't know if I should or should not get an x-ray/ultrasound? Especially the ultrasound since it costs so much...

Edit: The pics I was asked for.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## qbchottu

What was the lowest estimated xray cost you were able to find after calling vets today? 
Since you are in a financial bind, why not go with xrays if that's cheaper just to get some kind of idea of how many you are dealing with. 
Have you considered reaching out to a GSD rescue? They could help with bills and provide much needed support


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Odie came over from Germany on 12/29 a year ago. On 12/31, 1/1 she was showing signs of bloat. It was really, really bad. She was very pregnant, but with the limited information I had, I did not know when exactly -- she whelped on 1/6, by c-section. Anyhow, she was looking at her stomach and crying in pain, and of course we were having a blizzard, but my choices were limited, I put her in the car and drove 2 hours in a blizzard to get her to the vet. They said that as far along as she was -- yes she was already dropped and had milk, she would not be bloating. But she did have a LOT of gas. She expressed that and seemed to be doing a lot better. They did do an ultra sound and blood work and 900 (holiday after hours) dollars and a bit of passed gas, and another several hours back in the blizzard.
> 
> And five days later, and another blizzard, back there for an ultrasound and emergency c-section. $1100 dollars that time. When they did the ultrasound, it was awesome we were able to watch that, and the surgery. But at least we knew we were dealing with live pups, and not dead pups. I just don't know if you can get that with an x-ray. My vet does not do ultra-sounds.


Isn't breeding dogs great? Easy money!


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## selzer

Keep checking the temperature (2x/day). It is possible that she bottomed out and came back up. If she goes up to 103 get her back to the vet quick, that suggests that infection is setting in (in a pregnant bitch). Her normal temperature should be 101-102 degrees, so she is kind of in the normal range. Usually it works its way down, 102 in the morning, 101 in the evening or vise versa, and then 101 and 100.1, then it should dip down into the nineties, and in one of the twice daily measurements, you should see 98.5 or 99, maybe even two, and then she should whelp within 24 hours.

How big is your girl, normally, what does she usually weigh? An overweight bitch might not want to do much. Also a bitch that has any problems with pain in joints etc, might be feeling more of that with the excess weight of pregnancy.

Don't take any of this wrong, I am trying to figure out what is wrong with her, and maybe if she is a big girl, she is less active. But she is very young, right? I am at a loss. 

If you could get an ultrasound that is definitely the safest and can tell if they are live pups. An x-ray will confirm pregnancy. I guess I would be on the phone with the vet every day, not the office assistant or vet tech, but the vet, and telling him exactly what the temperature and what the behavior is.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> Isn't breeding dogs great? Easy money!


If you add up everything I will get from all the puppies I produced this year, (Cupcake, and the current three), it covered my regular vet bills for 2011. The gas episode, that c-section, and a set of hip and elbow x-rays weren't done by my regular vet. Cupcake was given up for a stud fee, as will one of these pups, so it is a good thing that this year, I was actually pretty low in vet costs for my lot. 

Yupp, making money hand over fist.


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## jcojocaru

selzer said:


> Keep checking the temperature (2x/day). It is possible that she bottomed out and came back up. If she goes up to 103 get her back to the vet quick, that suggests that infection is setting in (in a pregnant bitch). Her normal temperature should be 101-102 degrees, so she is kind of in the normal range. Usually it works its way down, 102 in the morning, 101 in the evening or vise versa, and then 101 and 100.1, then it should dip down into the nineties, and in one of the twice daily measurements, you should see 98.5 or 99, maybe even two, and then she should whelp within 24 hours.
> 
> How big is your girl, normally, what does she usually weigh? An overweight bitch might not want to do much. Also a bitch that has any problems with pain in joints etc, might be feeling more of that with the excess weight of pregnancy.
> 
> Don't take any of this wrong, I am trying to figure out what is wrong with her, and maybe if she is a big girl, she is less active. But she is very young, right? I am at a loss.
> 
> If you could get an ultrasound that is definitely the safest and can tell if they are live pups. An x-ray will confirm pregnancy. I guess I would be on the phone with the vet every day, not the office assistant or vet tech, but the vet, and telling him exactly what the temperature and what the behavior is.


139+ other fees is the lowest I found... Still huge progress from 450. Bailey normally isn't fat or big at all. She was in good shape, I made sure to feed her well enough that she wouldn't get too skinny, nor fat. Same for Max. As far as I know, she has had no pain in her joints. She runs around a lot and is very active and I've never seen her to be in pain for any reason whatsoever. Even now she doesn't seem to be in pain, just really tired and somewhat whiny. Won't move unless it's to go potty or eat.


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## shadow mum

I have been following this thread, and hope you take the breeder's advice that has been given to you. If they say to be concerned, I would be. Good luck to you!!


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## Lauri & The Gang

Ok, am I imagining it or is there a puppy sack just starting to show in that picture??


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## selzer

It looks like it could certainly be. I did not see the pictures, must have read it before the edit. That really does look like a pup.


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## qbchottu

Lauri...I was about to say the same thing, but I thought no way since OP says the temp hasn't dropped. What is it though??


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## Lauri & The Gang

The temp drop isn't a 100% all the time thing.


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## GSDGunner

Well, if that was indeed a pup, just how long does it take to come out? 
She posted 30 minutes after she posted the pics without mention of a birth.
I hope she's watching her.


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## DharmasMom

Oh great scott!!! I hope if that is a pup then the OP is with her right now and things are going smoothly.


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## selzer

Temperature usually does drop, but it goes back up before the pups are born, so you can miss the drop if you weren't taking the temp twice a day. 

I sure hope everything is going ok. It could be discharge and black discharge is a really bad sign with no puppies.


----------



## PupperLove

I was thinking the same thing about that looking like a puppy peeking out...but I've never owned a female so I don't know what "it" looks like?! I'm hoping for the best and getting anxious/nervous over here!


----------



## qbchottu

OP can you take more photos from different angles and more of the backside with tail moved aside?


----------



## qbchottu

From what I've read/heard: After sac presentation, the pup should be out within 30 mins. If it takes longer, call your vet. Each pup should be out half hour to two hours of each other. If there aren't any pups even with the bitch visibly straining and trying for several hours, call your vet. You might need to take her in for a c-section


----------



## selzer

Pups can take longer than 1/2 hour between pups. That is not all that uncommon. But if the bitch is straining for long periods, two hours she is in trouble. Usually after the water breaks, you have contractions within 30 minutes, and then a puppy within 2 hours. After that, they usually come fairly close together, but labor does sometimes stop and start up again. 

But if that is a pup, it needs to be out now.


----------



## onyx'girl

If there is only one or two pups, then there may be not enough hormones for her to deliver. She may have reabsorbed the other pups and smaller litter....
I'd be at the vet NOW! if this were my girl.


----------



## PupperLove

To be honest, becoming a breeder is one thing on my bucket list...and this is totally scaring me along with all of Selzer's stories. This makes me realize how many more YEARS I have to go before even starting to prepare/seriously consider breeding....! Oh I hope she is ok!!! Still anxiously awaiting updates over here....


----------



## spiritsmom

I thought the same when I first saw it, but figured OP would have said something by now if it were. Something shiny looking though as it caught the light it appears.


----------



## jcojocaru

No it's not a pup or I would have noticed... She just happens to have a random spot of color right there lol..... And there has been no straining on her part... No sign of pushing or anything that looks like she's trying to get a pup out, and I have been with her all this time. She seems no different from the time I started this thread, literally the same. 

Once again, it is not a pup you're seeing, just a spot of black... Like an island. It's been there forever.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Big sigh of relief. LOL!


----------



## onyx'girl

But do we really know this? Is your experienced breeder friend helping you? I hope you aren't blowing off signs that should be recognized. Are you prepared to whelp this litter?


----------



## PupperLove

It's not the spot of black but the spot of white that concerns me, it looks like something shiny as someone else already said. but you're the one with her...over here it looks very strange!


----------



## jcojocaru

onyx'girl said:


> But do we really know this? Is your experienced breeder friend helping you? I hope you aren't blowing off signs that should be recognized. Are you prepared to whelp this litter?



yes my friend is helping, and there is not a single sign I have ignored. No matter how unimportant I may think a sign to be, I put every detail into consideration and told my friend everything. I kind of obsess over details and don't let anything just pass unnoticed. Yes i'm prepared for the whelping and I've been reading non-stop from the beginning of this. I myself desired to be a breeder. It sounds easy... Until you actually go through with it... Or it's just my fault for being uneducated/unprepared.


----------



## jcojocaru

PupperLove said:


> It's not the spot of black but the spot of white that concerns me, it looks like something shiny as someone else already said. but you're the one with her...over here it looks very strange!


Oh, I assure you it's nothing. It must be from my camera flash lol. I inspected her whole body including privates and nothing seems strange. There is nothing visibly wrong at all.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

Any update?


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Just checking in and hopeing that momma is ok.


----------



## jcojocaru

Good news today: Bailey still hasn't gotten any worse. Her temperature is now 100.9. She just had some clear, clean looking discharge, and is eating very well. Better than Max actually lol. Besides that, there's nothing new or different, and especially not negative.


----------



## Lilie

Discharge?


----------



## jcojocaru

Lilie said:


> Discharge?


en.allexperts.com/q/Dog-Breeding-Whelping-3634/Pregnant-Dog-Discharge.htm


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Just looking for an update on Bailey, hope that she is ok.


----------



## PupperLove

any news?


----------



## jcojocaru

Bailey's temperature has now gone down to 100.0 and has begun producing milk. She is eating very well, though still inactive.

Edit:
Additional info: job opportunities are beginning to come my way, and my stress is going away. This news I'm only telling so that worries for Bailey by all you who have been here to help, can hopefully be diminished  obviously it is good news for me, but having been Bailey and puppy lives at some stake, it is wonderful news for them


----------



## JakodaCD OA

good to hear, hope the jobs pan out

Please keep us updated on Bailey


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Any news about Bailey?


----------



## jcojocaru

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Any news about Bailey?


She's actually a bit more active. Still doing well. She wanted to come outside with me so I followed her to see what she wanted, and she went straight into the dog house outside (the smaller one)... Now I can't get her out lol


----------



## Jax08

Do you have a quiet place set up for her to nest inside the house? Maybe that's why she doesn't want to come out of the doghouse?


----------



## qbchottu

Yea, maybe she wants a safe, quiet and secure place because she wants to start nesting. She might feel like that outside area is her safe place.


----------



## jcojocaru

Yes, I had her in a quiet, warm, and secluded spot. It couldn't have been more quiet or warm... and the dog house she just about never goes into it.


----------



## onyx'girl

Have you set up the pool for whelping? That may help her to start nesting.


----------



## jcojocaru

onyx'girl said:


> Have you set up the pool for whelping? That may help her to start nesting.


No not yet, I couldn't find it. But I did prepare her a soft, warm, comfortable spot.


----------



## Konotashi

Any news? 

I think you can get the kiddie pools at Wal-Mart for around $10....

How many days has it been now since the vet guessed she would whelp in 2 days?


----------



## jcojocaru

3 puppies born so far! It's been about 50 minutes since the last one. Bailey seems very relaxed and just seems to be resting. Things are going very smoothly and she hasn't seemed to struggle at all with any of the pups.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

That's good!


----------



## CeCe

So happy to hear her that your girl is doing well. I hope the all puppies come out healthy. Once they are all born you'll need to make sure they start drinking milk. Please keep us updated and share a pic of mom and babies if you're able to.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

Don't let them drink milk right away!!! You have to make sure their lungs are clear first!!! If you don't know how to tell if the lungs are clear wait about 10 min. after the puppy is born to allow it to start drinking.


----------



## CeCe

Sorry-ignore what I said-don't know anything about breeding. I do know that something called colostrum (hope I spelled it correctly) is found in the mothers milk during the first few hours after birth and that it protects the puppies. The experienced folks on the forum will let you know what to do.


----------



## jcojocaru

how exactly do I know their lungs are clear? Either way ther aren't drinking yet so I guess all is good lol. They're making a lot of noise


----------



## jcojocaru

#4 is here!


----------



## amaris

Do you know how many puppies there are?


----------



## jcojocaru

amaris said:


> Do you know how many puppies there are?


No I don't. I didn't have the money for an x-ray due to unfortunate financial woes. Should have gotten an x-ray rather than having gone for a check-up twice. 

Bailey is doing great though so I am not worried.


----------



## amaris

okay...just worried about whether you'd be able to know if all the pups were out...

good luck with the entire thing  all the best


----------



## jcojocaru

amaris said:


> okay...just worried about whether you'd be able to know if all the pups were out...
> 
> good luck with the entire thing  all the best


Thank you, I appreciate it. It's really a great experience  Certainly did make me happy and I think I am going to keep a pup or two lol


----------



## jcojocaru




----------



## jetscarbie

I'm glad things are going well so far.

Make sure you keep the pups warm. I've read where some use heat lamps.

I think people use those baby bulbs to suck the noses out. 

I would put the babies on her teats in between pups. When she starts having another one, I would move the babies so they don't get stepped on. I read in that whelping link I posted.....that babies sucking on mom's teats helps release chemicals in her body that helps move the labor along...and also helps with her bond with the puppies.


----------



## NancyJ

I know that in humans, suckling increases uterine contractions and helps with expulsion of placenta and clamping down uterus......people I know, dogs I don't but assume it would be basically the same.


----------



## GSDGunner

Are they outside in those pictures?


----------



## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> Are they outside in those pictures?


Sort of, my parents didn't want the dogs inside. So I stayed out there with them to keep an eye on them. it was warm, but I wanted to bring them in so I could get some sleep as well. So I convinced my parents and now they're inside. There are now 5 pups.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd

Hope that your beautiful momma will be ok and that all her puppies are healthy.


----------



## holland

Congrats-glad that they are inside


----------



## jcojocaru

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Hope that your beautiful momma will be ok and that all her puppies are healthy.


Bailey seems happy and is doing great. The pups are doing great as well  lol one just mistaked a ear for a nipple


----------



## Freestep

jcojocaru said:


> Thank you, I appreciate it. It's really a great experience  Certainly did make me happy and I think I am going to keep a pup or two lol


Don't forget to spay or neuter this time!  Glad everything seems to be going well so far.


----------



## juliejujubean

Im glad they are doing well. I hope you can find responsible owners for these pups. Also you may want to put a spay/neuter agreement in the contract of the puppies. I hope you decide to spay mom or at least neuter max.


----------



## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> Don't forget to spay or neuter this time!  Glad everything seems to be going well so far.


Yes because if you plan on keeping 1-2, they will breed when they are sexually mature. They'll be interbred with mama, daddy, siblings, whatever is around. Dogs do not have the built in social taboos that keep humans (usually) from interbreeding.


----------



## Zisso

Checking in on this thread and wondering if mama is still in labor or done and how many?


----------



## jcojocaru

msvette2u said:


> Yes because if you plan on keeping 1-2, they will breed when they are sexually mature. They'll be interbred with mama, daddy, siblings, whatever is around. Dogs do not have the built in social taboos that keep humans (usually) from interbreeding.


Yes I know this, I was just misunderstood when I said it seems Max sees her as a sister. I wasn't comparing them to humans, just that he hasn't seemed to be interested in her. That's what I was trying to explain. I DO know that dogs inbreed easily and if I keep any, I'll be sure to spay/neuter.


----------



## jcojocaru

Zisso said:


> Checking in on this thread and wondering if mama is still in labor or done and how many?


She is no longer in labor and had 5


----------



## Zisso

Congrats! Hope they are all doing well and mama is taking good care of them!


----------



## jcojocaru

Bailey had #6... 7 hours after #5... But they all seem happy and are feeding well  all seem healthy. They're all very active, noisy, and feeding well. Things are going perfectly so far 

And Bailey is getting up a lot and plenty active as well. Eating very well. She seems very happy.


----------



## onyx'girl

What are you containing mom/pups in? She can roll on them/suffocate, or they can tangle in the blankets if that is what you have for padding. A kiddie pool is better than a dog house, I hope they are contained safely and not outside. Don't use a crate either...that can be deadly on the pups if mom lays on one in such close quarters.


----------



## jcojocaru

onyx'girl said:


> What are you containing mom/pups in? She can roll on them/suffocate, or they can tangle in the blankets if that is what you have for padding. A kiddie pool is better than a dog house, I hope they are contained safely and not outside. Don't use a crate either...that can be deadly on the pups if mom lays on one in such close quarters.


They're inside the house, not in a dog house and she has plenty of space. I'm keeping very close watch on them along with the rest of the family and Bailey is doing a great job taking care of them. I have a soft rug over another soft rug, with a clean towel on top, stretched out so they can't get tangled in it. If i'm not there to watch, either my dad or my sisters are. I don't think things could be going any better


----------



## trudy

congrats on the pups, you said your parents don't allow the dogs inside??well please ask them to let them stay in while the pups are so young. Also after looking at the pics please trim the mom's nails, and make sure to do the pups every week or they will hurt mom while nursing, and she could hurt them if she steps on them with her long sharp nails...I am surprised the vet didn't do it during your check up, again I remind you to keep the boy away from the pups unless supervised very closely and not until they are lots older, no tragedies please, I hope he is the dad so they are pure bred, not that the neighbors dog got her since you have mentioned his lack of interest and their very young ages.


----------



## trudy

by the way what is the split??boys??girls?? and try to post pics please


----------



## jcojocaru

trudy said:


> congrats on the pups, you said your parents don't allow the dogs inside??well please ask them to let them stay in while the pups are so young. Also after looking at the pics please trim the mom's nails, and make sure to do the pups every week or they will hurt mom while nursing, and she could hurt them if she steps on them with her long sharp nails...I am surprised the vet didn't do it during your check up, again I remind you to keep the boy away from the pups unless supervised very closely and not until they are lots older, no tragedies please, I hope he is the dad so they are pure bred, not that the neighbors dog got her since you have mentioned his lack of interest and their very young ages.


I mentioned multiple times they are now in the house. The post previous to yours does as well lol. I didn't even need to convince my parents, they decided they want them inside where we could all watch them. 

I'm certain they're pure bred, because neighbors dogs are fixed and have no way to get to mine as it is. I have them secured very well. Besides some of them have the markings of Max on them. I must say, though I do understand of course, some of you worry too much lol.

Not entirely sure on the split yet, but they all seem to be boys.


----------



## onyx'girl

females may be swollen because of the hormones, but you should be able to decipher the difference. 
This link may be informational for you on puppy raising, now that they are whelped, on to the next level.


----------



## onyx'girl

this isn't me by the way, just a youtube I randomly picked!


----------



## jcojocaru

onyx'girl said:


> Super Dog Program - Jane & Betty - YouTube
> this isn't me by the way, just a youtube I randomly picked!


Thank you for all the info and help, I appreciate it. I thank everyone here who decided to help rather than judge! I do not regret this experience at all.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

jcojocaru said:


> Thank you for all the info and help, I appreciate it. I thank everyone here who decided to help rather than judge! I do not regret this experience at all.



You just got lucky that eaverything went well with the delivery cause not all of them go well nor have good endings. Some break your heart into pieces when you loose puppies or the mother.


----------



## Lilie

jcojocaru said:


> Thank you for all the info and help, I appreciate it. I thank everyone here who decided to help rather than judge! *I do not regret this experience at all*.


Well, bless your heart.


----------



## GSDGunner

jcojocaru said:


> Thank you for all the info and help, I appreciate it. I thank everyone here who decided to help rather than judge! I do not regret this experience at all.


I'm glad it well, but your experience is just beginning. You still have a lot ahead of you regarding the newborns.
And I am really hoping that you don't decide to let this happen again down the road just because you enjoyed the experience.
Please leave the breeding to the experts and have your girl spayed.


----------



## msvette2u

GSDBESTK9 said:


> You just got lucky that eaverything went well with the delivery cause not all of them go well nor have good endings. Some break your heart into pieces when you loose puppies or the mother.


Mastitis and other issues are still a very real threat.

Please also consider placing the puppies through a rescue so they don't also go on to contribute to the pet overpopulation problem.


----------



## mysweetkaos

jcojocaru said:


> Thank you, I appreciate it. It's really a great experience  Certainly did make me happy and I think I am going to keep a pup or two lol


Please don't. Puppies are cute and it's easy to get taken....but as you've learned, they are very expensive....and even more so as they age. You had trouble getting (paying for all the proper care for the momma) so please rethink this.



jcojocaru said:


> I mentioned multiple times they are now in the house. The post previous to yours does as well lol. I didn't even need to convince my parents, they decided they want them inside where we could all watch them.
> 
> I'm certain they're pure bred, because neighbors dogs are fixed and have no way to get to mine as it is. I have them secured very well. Besides some of them have the markings of Max on them. I must say, though I do understand of course, some of you worry too much lol.
> 
> Not entirely sure on the split yet, but they all seem to be boys.


As for people worrying too much....perhaps it is just life experience which you have yet to gain. A lot of the people who offered help have seen things not turn out so well. 



jcojocaru said:


> Thank you for all the info and help, I appreciate it. I thank everyone here who decided to help rather than judge! I do not regret this experience at all.


No regret is fine....but you don't have to regret something to learn from it.



Lilie said:


> Well, bless your heart.


:thumbup:



GSDGunner said:


> I'm glad it well, but your experience is just beginning. You still have a lot ahead of you regarding the newborns.
> And I am really hoping that you don't decide to let this happen again down the road just because you enjoyed the experience.
> Please leave the breeding to the experts and have your girl spayed.


:thumbup:



msvette2u said:


> Mastitis and other issues are still a very real threat.
> 
> Please also consider placing the puppies through a rescue so they don't also go on to contribute to the pet overpopulation problem.


Rescues would be able to help with all of the puppies vetting needs as well....which are going to cost a lot more than the x-ray that you struggled with.


----------



## trudy

I am really sorry but you can't tell the sex????? REALLY??? And your parents have like 10 kids and your dad can't tell the sex of puppies??? And they can't have dad's markings yet truly as GS pups are born almost black and color changes with age and maturity, so if they have his color now that will change and males will travel miles to get to a female in heat, and your male being so young would NOT necessarily turn back a dominant male...You sound much younger than your years, are you sure you are not in your young teens???

I may sound rude but you sound very young and naive, you should have looked up info on line and visited he library for books to help you, and where is this expert friend to tell you the sex of the pups, I also wonder have you looked into registering this litter??? Or do you have the papers on mom and dad??? Are you planning to xray mom and dad so pups new owners will have some history?? I am truly sorry for these pups, your dogs, and everyone who gets a pup improperly raised, after all how will you afford worming, shots and vet care for them as well as good food for mom and them???


----------



## msvette2u

Boy puppies = pee comes out of their tummy

Girl puppies = pee comes out of back underneath their tail

You can google this information -- Sexing puppies - how to tell the males from the females.


----------



## Lilie

Turn them on their backs and look at their belly, discounting the umbilical cord. If you still can't tell, they are female.


----------



## jcojocaru

Wow you all just need to relax. It's 4m 2f. I just couldn't tell because the pups are really squirmy and I decided to just leave them alone for now. it's like a lot of you just skip every word I say. No, i'm not going to place them through a rescue. Your hatred for byb's is rather pathetic. I would understand if it was for a byb who didnt care about his dogs/puppies but am I that person? No. I already have 3 friends who want one. Don't contribute to overpopulation? why is it ok to breed at all then? Just because you have titles and championships, you can add to overpopulation? Maybe you should place your children through adoption because "you're contributing to overpopulation". It's pathetic really, how good you all think you are, and the moment I thank you for the help you go right back to the snobby little selves you really are. Next time I won't come here for help. I'll manage fine without your help. You guys do quite a lot of fear-mongering and should be ashamed of yourselves. The only reason I was so stressed out and worried in the first place is because some of the crap I was given. Before you judge me and my age, perhaps you should judge yourselves for lack of maturity.


----------



## Lakl

Truly a lost cause, people... We're already discussing "next time". Just let it go...


----------



## Lilie

Wow! That was kinda harsh. People on this site just really care about the GSD. And most of them care about those who own GSDs. 

I certainly wouldn't want that to change.


----------



## jcojocaru

Lakl said:


> Truly a lost cause, people... We're already discussing "next time". Just let it go...


Are we discussing next time? Like I said, you guys don't even read. Grow up and stop being so judgmental.


----------



## jcojocaru

Lilie said:


> Wow! That was kinda harsh. People on this site just really care about the GSD. And most of them care about those who own GSDs.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't want that to change.


Then maybe those people should stop assuming i'm a liar and/or learn to read? Good starting point I would say.


----------



## GSDGunner

I think it is YOU that needs to relax. All everyone here wants is to make sure those puppies are okay. You received a lot of good advice. Discard the attitudes and see the ones who are trying to give you advice, whether it's what you want to hear or not.
Unfortunately, you are a byb. There's no getting around that. But what you choose to do in the future is what's important.
And unfortunately it IS this type of breeding that lends to the pet overpopulation. Reputable/responsible breeders spend a lot of time (and money) seeing to it that their breeding dogs are worthy to be bred. That's just a fact.
I'm sorry if what you are reading is upsetting to you, but all in all I think everyone has bent over backwards to help you.
And no, nobody here is going to pat you on the back because you care for your dogs. You allowed your puppy to get pregnant. That is what makes you a byb, whether you intended to do it or not.

And as for this:


> you should place your children through adoption because "you're contributing to overpopulation".


All I can muster is WOW! Your lack of maturity is astounding to me.


----------



## LaRen616

jcojocaru said:


> Don't contribute to overpopulation? why is it ok to breed at all then? Just because you have titles and championships, you can add to overpopulation?


We need breeders that breed titled/champion dogs with great health, stable and proper temperment and fit the standard in order to continue to have great German Shepherds.

What we do not need are backyard breeders, because they are ruining the breed.


----------



## Lilie

jcojocaru said:


> Then maybe those people should stop assuming i'm a liar and/or learn to read? Good starting point I would say.


I suspect they understand a lot more than you realize.


----------



## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> I think it is YOU that needs to relax. All everyone here wants is to make sure those puppies are okay. You received a lot of good advice. Discard the attitudes and see the ones who are trying to give you advice, whether it's what you want to hear or not.
> Unfortunately, you are a byb. There's no getting around that. But what you choose to do in the future is what's important.
> And unfortunately it IS this type of breeding that lends to the pet overpopulation. Reputable/responsible breeders spend a lot of time (and money) seeing to it that their breeding dogs are worthy to be bred. That's just a fact.
> I'm sorry if what you are reading is upsetting to you, but all in all I think everyone has bent over backwards to help you.
> And no, nobody here is going to pat you on the back because you care for your dogs. You allowed your puppy to get pregnant.
> 
> And as for this:
> 
> All I can muster is WOW! Your lack of maturity is astounding to me.


Yes, because you're so much more mature. Thanks for proving you value animal life higher than your own flesh and blood. Just because I value human life more, does not mean I don't care about animals.


----------



## GSDGunner

LaRen616 said:


> We need breeders that breed titled/champion dogs with great health, stable and proper temperment and fit the standard in order to continue to have great German Shepherds.
> 
> What we do not need are backyard breeders, because they are ruining the breed.


:thumbup:


----------



## GSDGunner

jcojocaru said:


> Yes, because you're so much more mature. Thanks for proving you value animal life higher than your own flesh and blood. Just because I value human life more, does not mean I don't care about animals.


Haha! I'm not mature? Point to any of my posts and back that up for me would you please? 
I spoke to you in nothing less than a mature manner. I can't say the same for you.


----------



## jcojocaru

Lilie said:


> I suspect they understand a lot more than you realize.


I suspect they just don't know how to read and are judgmental ass-holes. I say one thing, and they immediately attack me as if I said another. Whose fault is that?


----------



## ladyfreckles

I just turned 20 last month and nobody on here ever judges me because of my age, so don't try to say that. Bottom line is that the people here really care about dogs and don't want anything bad happening to them. If a person is refusing to listen to advice, and getting mad whenever someone tells them the truth, and trying to treat an accidental breeding like it's a casual, okay thing, then yes, people are going to tell them they are immature. This is with good reason. 

You are not acting like your age. I'd like to think people at or around my age are a lot smarter than this. And no, people are not immature just because they assume you are younger than you say they are. Many of the people on here are easily twice my age and come with a lot of experience an wisdom that you need to learn to trust and listen to. You cannot pick and choose what you want to hear when it comes to raising a living thing. 

I just want to ask that you please stop making 20-21 year olds everywhere look bad.

And as a PS: calling people names and swearing is not going to make them think you're mature.


----------



## GSDGunner

jcojocaru said:


> I suspect they just don't know how to read and are judgmental ass-holes. I say one thing, and they immediately attack me as if I said another. Whose fault is that?


I don't think you'll have to worry about posting in the future if you continue with that language. It is uncalled for and will result in you being banned.

And as for this:


> Thanks for proving you value animal life higher than your own flesh and blood. Just because I value human life more, does not mean I don't care about animals.


I proved what exactly? I pointed out the immaturity in your statement. Don't assume you know my values thank you!


----------



## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> Haha! I'm not mature? Point to any of my posts and back that up for me would you please?
> I spoke to you in nothing less than a mature manner. I can't say the same for you.


I'm sorry for making a good point. If you didnt value animals more than people, you would understand. I'm only immature because I struck right at home with that one. And you just don't like the truth.


----------



## NancyJ

People are trying to help with these pups and you have been given a lot of good advice.

Now you better muster all the knowledge you can about development of those puppies and raising them properly. There are important developmental windows that dogs need to have proper handling and exposure or they can be ruined for life. There are imprint periods, fear periods etc. There are diseases, like parvo that can lie dormant in soils for years. ....... 

You got lucky. Thank your lucky stars for that and now continue the process of making sure these puppies get the right start. (And your parents will probably want them GONE before they are 8 weeks because they start to be a real PITA around 5-6 weeks - but they need that time to mature with each other)

There is no need to insult anyone.


----------



## LoveEcho

jcojocaru said:


> I'm sorry for making a good point. If you didnt value animals more than people, you would understand. I'm only immature because I struck right at home with that one. And you just don't like the truth.


I'm not understanding your argument about valuing human life over animal life, and what it has to do with any of this...? 

Who said they don't value human life?? 


This is a dog forum, obviously people are going to be concerned about the welfare of the dogs. Nobody said anything about humans being more/less important?

If you don't want to BE what you say everyone is "judging you" to be, then heed all the great advice given to you by breeders, rescuers, etc.


----------



## GSDGunner

jcojocaru said:


> I'm sorry for making a good point. If you didnt value animals more than people, you would understand. I'm only immature because I struck right at home with that one. And you just don't like the truth.


That was a good point? :rofl: Truth? For the record darling, I don't have children. So your "good point" is well, pointless. 
Don't you have homework to do?


----------



## jcojocaru

ladyfreckles said:


> I just turned 20 last month and nobody on here ever judges me because of my age, so don't try to say that. Bottom line is that the people here really care about dogs and don't want anything bad happening to them. If a person is refusing to listen to advice, and getting mad whenever someone tells them the truth, and trying to treat an accidental breeding like it's a casual, okay thing, then yes, people are going to tell them they are immature. This is with good reason.
> 
> You are not acting like your age. I'd like to think people at or around my age are a lot smarter than this. And no, people are not immature just because they assume you are younger than you say they are. Many of the people on here are easily twice my age and come with a lot of experience an wisdom that you need to learn to trust and listen to. You cannot pick and choose what you want to hear when it comes to raising a living thing.
> 
> I just want to ask that you please stop making 20-21 year olds everywhere look bad.
> 
> And as a PS: calling people names and swearing is not going to make them think you're mature.


i'm not looking for people to think i'm mature, i'm asking them to learn to read and stop being judgmental. More than once I have stated I will not let this happen again, that I will do whatever it takes to meet the needs of my dogs. And over and over they assumed i'm a liar. When all I did was ask for help in sincerity. I do not go around attacking people because I disagree with them. If someone is sincere and is looking for help... I help them. I don't judge their intentions and I don't judge them for trying to do the right thing. So who's the immature one here? They can say all kind of crap but me calling them ass-holes and jerks, which they're proving themselves to be, is immature? Ok


----------



## GSDGunner

Ok, I have better things to do...Seacrest out! :greet:


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## ladyfreckles

jocoyn said:


> People are trying to help with these pups and you have been given a lot of good advice.
> 
> Now you better muster all the knowledge you can about development of those puppies and raising them properly. There are important developmental windows that dogs need to have proper handling and exposure or they can be ruined for life. There are imprint periods, fear periods etc. There are diseases, like parvo that can lie dormant in soils for years. .......
> 
> You got lucky. Thank your lucky stars for that and now continue the process of making sure these puppies get the right start. (And your parents will probably want them GONE before they are 8 weeks because they start to be a real PITA around 5-6 weeks - but they need that time to mature with each other)
> 
> There is no need to insult anyone.


:thumbup:


----------



## LoveEcho

jcojocaru said:


> i'm not looking for people to think i'm mature, i'm asking them to learn to read and stop being judgmental. More than once I have stated I will not let this happen again, that I will do whatever it takes to meet the needs of my dogs. And over and over they assumed i'm a liar. When all I did was ask for help in sincerity. I do not go around attacking people because I disagree with them. If someone is sincere and is looking for help... I help them. I don't judge their intentions and I don't judge them for trying to do the right thing. So who's the immature one here? They can say all kind of crap but me calling them ass-holes and jerks, which they're proving themselves to be, is immature? Ok



Nobody has called you a single name...?


----------



## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> That was a good point? :rofl: Truth? For the record darling, I don't have children. So your "good point" is well, pointless.
> Don't you have homework to do?


No I still have a good point. But if I go further to explain it i'll only piss you off. "rofl" all you want. It's pointless to continue. I was only here for help. Since you're so much better than me, i'll just simply accept your standards for life and animals.


----------



## ladyfreckles

jcojocaru said:


> i'm not looking for people to think i'm mature, i'm asking them to learn to read and stop being judgmental. More than once I have stated I will not let this happen again, that I will do whatever it takes to meet the needs of my dogs. And over and over they assumed i'm a liar. When all I did was ask for help in sincerity. I do not go around attacking people because I disagree with them. If someone is sincere and is looking for help... I help them. I don't judge their intentions and I don't judge them for trying to do the right thing. So who's the immature one here? They can say all kind of crap but me calling them ass-holes and jerks, which they're proving themselves to be, is immature? Ok


If I did the same things you have done they would treat me the same way, and with good reason. Nobody is calling you a liar, they are considering your history with your dogs and going based on that. People have been very kind to you and have helped you, it's just that you dislike some of the more honest opinions around here. Nobody is attacking you. They are sincerely trying to help you, not being "jerks". Who's the immature one here? Two wrongs do NOT make a right. I don't care if they came in here and said you should never be allowed to own dogs again and should have your pets taken away, that does NOT give you the right to go around swearing and calling people jerks. If you're the innocent victim who's done nothing wrong, then why is there a need for you to call people names? Your point should be able to speak for itself.


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## jcojocaru

LoveEcho said:


> Nobody has called you a single name...?


if someone is a high and mighty ******, what else do you call them? What's worse, assuming someone is lying and judge them according to your opinion, or to be called an *****?


----------



## Lilie

jcojocaru said:


> I suspect they just don't know how to read and are judgmental ** ***. I say one thing, and they immediately attack me as if I said another. Whose fault is that?


I don't think you'll find any fault finding folks on this site. Not when it comes to their love for their dogs. It's all about the dogs. Not about you, not about me. 

Nope, you're not special at all.


----------



## jcojocaru

ladyfreckles said:


> If I did the same things you have done they would treat me the same way, and with good reason. Nobody is calling you a liar, they are considering your history with your dogs and going based on that. People have been very kind to you and have helped you, it's just that you dislike some of the more honest opinions around here. Nobody is attacking you. They are sincerely trying to help you, not being "jerks". Who's the immature one here? Two wrongs do NOT make a right. I don't care if they came in here and said you should never be allowed to own dogs again and should have your pets taken away, that does NOT give you the right to go around swearing and calling people jerks. If you're the innocent victim who's done nothing wrong, then why is there a need for you to call people names? Your point should be able to speak for itself.


My history? How many times did I breed my dogs?


----------



## LoveEcho

jcojocaru said:


> if someone is a high and mighty ass-hole, what else do you call them? What's worse, assuming someone is lying and judge them according to your opinion, or to be called an ******?


You don't call them anything. 

I'm sure there are a lot of names people have wanted to call you (not saying deservedly, just saying hypothetically) without actually doing so. Namely the people you're calling ******, who are not responding. 

It's an important life skill to know when to just say "ok" and walk away, even if you feel you're being attacked.


----------



## jcojocaru

Lilie said:


> I don't think you'll find any fault finding folks on this site. Not when it comes to their love for their dogs. It's all about the dogs. Not about you, not about me.
> 
> Nope, you're not special at all.


I never said I was. But i'll go by your logic, enter every thread, and assume the op is a liar. Then i'll attack him/her by opinion, without reading anything they say. I'll assume the quality of their dog is crap in the process.


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## ladyfreckles

jcojocaru said:


> My history? How many times did I breed my dogs?


You were warned, several times, and did not listen. I can't blame people for assuming you'll do the same thing again.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

I'm really, really confused.

The OP accused GSD Gunner of valuing dog life over human life.. but the OP was the one who said that humans shouldn't "breed" and should be adopted.. isn't that equating dog life with human life??? So wouldn't the OP be the one who is diminishing the value of human life??? 

Humans "breeding" and dogs breeding are two very different things. One big difference is that humans make a CHOICE to procreate (or engage in acts that might lead to procreation) while dogs do not have a choice. It is wired into them, as you discovered. Even though your male and female were raised together like siblings, and even though your male showed little interest in your female, in the end the two bred because that is what they are hard wired to do.

With humans, if a woman wants to give her baby up for adoption, she can do so, with little fear that the child will be placed in a home that may someday abandon him/her... and NO fear that the child might end up in a facility waiting for euthanasia. 

Again, dogs do not have a choice. It is up to the owner/"breeder" to place the puppies in good, loving, forever homes. There is NEVER any guarantee that any of these homes will be permanent: some may decide to rehome for various reason (having a baby, moving, allergies, etc. etc. etc.). Responsible breeders REQUIRE that dogs they bred/sold be returned to them if, for any reason, the new owner cannot keep them. I do not think you are in a position to due that, due to the fact that you are living in someone else's home and therefore do not have the final say as to what dogs live in it, and because (you said yourself) there are financial concerns. THAT is why people suggested getting a rescue to help you place these puppies: because THERE is your guarantee. A good rescue knows how to screen potential adopters and require that the adopted dogs/puppies be returned to them if, for whatever reason, the adopter cannot keep them.


----------



## jcojocaru

LoveEcho said:


> You don't call them anything.
> 
> I'm sure there are a lot of names people have wanted to call you (not saying deservedly, just saying hypothetically) without actually doing so. Namely the people you're calling *******, who are not responding.
> 
> It's an important life skill to know when to just say "ok" and walk away, even if you feel you're being attacked.


if calling someone a jerk is going to lead to injury for me, or death, then I proved my point didnt I? But you are right, i'll walk away since apparently everyone can read my mind.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

jcojocaru said:


> if calling someone a jerk is going to lead to injury for me, or death, then I proved my point didnt I? But you are right, i'll walk away since apparently everyone can read my mind.


Please read my post on the previous page regarding why it would be a good idea for a rescue to help you place these puppies.

In the very least, someone can help you come up with a good contract to ensure that these puppies have good forever homes and are properly cared for. I'm sure you want that.


----------



## LoveEcho

jcojocaru said:


> if calling someone a jerk is going to lead to injury for me, or death, then I proved my point didnt I? But you are right, i'll walk away since apparently everyone can read my mind.


Who's injuring you? What point did you prove?

When I said it's important in life, I don't mean to avoid getting your butt kicked (although for many people that does happen), I mean it makes your life easier as well.


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## mysweetkaos

I think it would serve you well to go back and read some of the posts. A lot of good advice and questions have been asked, yet you seem to pick and choose whom you respond to, and it seems to be the ones that get you riled up. I would think you owe it to your dogs to look at the advice objectively and honestly rather than being so defensive. As for the name calling and the trite comments about proving points and value of human life, unnecessary and in poor taste in my opinion.


----------



## jcojocaru

ladyfreckles said:


> You were warned, several times, and did not listen. I can't blame people for assuming you'll do the same thing again.


Honestly I don't even care anymore. Before I didnt say I would spay her. I chose the dogs for a reason. If I had more knowledge about breeding, then people wouldn't have said a thing and that part I agree is my fault, as I have admitted numerous times. so obviously at that point I wasn't going to consider spaying. I never said I would.not until this came up, and it was my fault for not being ready. but now I did say I won't let it happen again, because I wasn't ready and lacked the knowledge. I chose two high quality dogs for a reason and did not go to byb's for them. The puppies and dogs are healthy, I made sure of it. 

So, how can I do the same thing when before I said nothing about spaying? again there is no "history" to judge by.


----------



## jcojocaru

LoveEcho said:


> Who's injuring you? What point did you prove?
> 
> When I said it's important in life, I don't mean to avoid getting your butt kicked (although for many people that does happen), I mean it makes your life easier as well.


If people are going to be judgmental ass-holes who assume i'm a liar, i'll return the favor. They already make life difficult. calling them for what they really are isn't going to make things more difficult for me. If they can judge falsely, and assume the sincerity of other people, they deserve anything but sympathy.


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## Lilie

jcojocaru said:


> I never said I was. But i'll go by your logic, enter every thread, and assume the op is a liar. Then i'll attack him/her by opinion, without reading anything they say. I'll assume the quality of their dog is crap in the process.


Nah, buttercup, I wouldn't try to follow my logic. You are already too far down the wrong rabbit trail.


----------



## jcojocaru

mysweetkaos said:


> I think it would serve you well to go back and read some of the posts. A lot of good advice and questions have been asked, yet you seem to pick and choose whom you respond to, and it seems to be the ones that get you riled up. I would think you owe it to your dogs to look at the advice objectively and honestly rather than being so defensive. As for the name calling and the trite comments about proving points and value of human life, unnecessary and in poor taste in my opinion.


Poor taste is when I come for help and people judge my sincerity. When they assume i'm lying. That's acceptable but me being angry and irritated by those people is unacceptable? I responded kindly to everyone. Maybe if they didnt come across in the manner they did, I wouldn't be calling them for what they are, would I? How many times did I state I didnt intend this to happen the way it did, and that I would take means to keep it from happening again later? Plenty of times. But if people weren't so busy being judgmental, they might have picked up on it by now. if they can't keep rude comments to themselves, they shouldn't expect mine to please them.


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## jcojocaru

Lilie said:


> Nah, buttercup, I wouldn't try to follow my logic. You are already too far down the wrong rabbit trail.


If you say so cupcake.


----------



## ladyfreckles

Okay, I give in. You're right. Everyone is the problem but you. Sorry.


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## LoveEcho

Can moderators step in, please?  

Nothing productive is being said any longer, just name calling. Time to lock.


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## LaRen616

We need breeders that breed titled/champion dogs with great health, stable and proper temperment and fit the standard in order to continue to have great German Shepherds.

What we do not need are backyard breeders (you), because they (you) are ruining the breed. 

 Just had to fix my post.


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## Lilie

jcojocaru said:


> If you say so cupcake.


And I do! Thanks!


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## GSDBESTK9

Don't take this wrong but you are being kind of judgmental yourself. People on this board are not a$$*** like you call them. They are people who LOVE the GSD breed and many of them (including myself) have or have had dogs that came from Back-yard-breeders. These dogs have issues whether health or nerve/temperament issues. It is because of these BYB dogs that there are so many in shelters and also the reason why the GSD has such bad reputation as an aggressive breed. Some of us have seen it all.

Reputable breeders go the extra mile to title and health screen their dogs to improve the breed. What kind of health tests did you get on your dogs? If you don't title your dogs, did you at least take them to a trainer to see what their nerves and/or temperaments are like? To know if they would improve the breed? If your answer is NO to these questions then, I'm sorry, it makes you a Back-yard-breeder whether you like it or not.

You have allowed your PUPPY to get pregnant... DONE, nothing can be done now. So stick around and do learn, you will find a lot of good information here. But don't blame these people for getting upset. Before I married my husband and became a breeder with him, I volunteered with a GSD Rescue for many years, I have fostered over 40 GSDs so I've pretty much seen it all when it comes to heath, temperament and nerve issues. People like yourself, who don't take these things into consideration, are not helping our wonderful breed. Sorry.

Now all you can do is be responsible for each of those puppies and find them the BEST home they can ever have, one that you will know for sure (with no doubt) will not be dumping the puppy in a shelter later on when it is no longer cute and too much work.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

*sigh*

So we have come to paying attention to/responding to insults, and ignoring posts that attempt to offer advice.


----------



## Lakl

Just your comments regarding breeding go to show how very little you know and how naive you sound. People spend YEARS reading, visiting clubs, training, etc. before they purchase a dog that MIGHT be considered for breeding. You stated yourself that you don't regret this happening. If you only had a clue how that sounds to people who have been in the breed and rescues longer than you've been alive, then you'd understand why your various comments get people so upset.


----------



## jcojocaru

LaRen616 said:


> We need breeders that breed titled/champion dogs with great health, stable and proper temperment and fit the standard in order to continue to have great German Shepherds.
> 
> What we do not need are backyard breeders (you), because they (you) are ruining the breed.
> 
> Just had to fix my post.


There's a reason German Shepherds came to being. Dogs weren't always bred by todays standards. But once again, I chose wisely so stop assuming mine are going to ruin the heeded. Worry about the people who breed unhealthy/disease riddled dogs. The only reason you think mine aren't "helping" the breed is my lack of knowledge. If it weren't for that, you would have nothing to say against me or my dogs. Just because a dog has titles and is well trained doesn't mean it's better than someone elses, just means someone had more time and better resources. I guess i'm a byb, though i do not breed and this was accidental. But i'm a byb. What are you going to do about it... Hunt me down? I've taken every step to make sure my dogs are healthy and had great results. I chose properly, they had healthy puppies, now get over it. 

Don't expect anymore updates from me. There's no point for me to post on this board anymore. I can care for my dogs without your help.


----------



## Snickelfritz

I'm curious to know how old OP is, and if he is not of legal age, wouldn't it be the parents responsibility to adopt out, rehome, sell or place the puppies in rescue?

I've learned allot about BYB, when I first got Heidi almost 6 years ago, I was going to do the exact same thing. Until I started reading about all of the problems that can happen. 

I guess I was lucky I read first, and didn't just find a stud dog. I'd be the one on here being lectured, and persecuted. (I'm saying persecuted, because I think that's how the OP feels).

What's done is done, and I think we just have to believe that he will spay his female, and hopefully neuter the male. 

I just look forward to seeing more puppy pictures, and hopefully fantastic homes for them in the next 2 months.

I hope the OP's mom and dad are heavily involved in bonding and socializing the puppies, and wellness exams for them.


----------



## jcojocaru

Lakl said:


> Just your comments regarding breeding go to show how very little you know and how naive you sound. People spend YEARS reading, visiting clubs, training, etc. before they purchase a dog that MIGHT be considered for breeding. You stated yourself that you don't regret this happening. If you only had a clue how that sounds to people who have been in the breed and rescues longer than you've been alive, then you'd understand why your various comments get people so upset.


People are going to poorly breed gsd,s whether you like it or not. Titles and training don't mean a dam thing. Just that more time was put into that dog. The only thing they help with is selling at a higher price. if you're worried about overpopulation, stop breeding. 

I know my dogs better than you do, and I know their quality. I didnt just pick the first I saw. And I put more time than you know into it. Tell me one negative thing about my dogs, I bet you can't.


----------



## ladyfreckles

jcojocaru said:


> People are going to poorly breed gsd,s whether you like it or not. Titles and training don't mean a dam thing. Just that more time was put into that dog. The only thing they help with is selling at a higher price. if you're worried about overpopulation, stop breeding.
> 
> I know my dogs better than you do, and I know their quality. I didnt just pick the first I saw. And I put more time than you know into it. Tell me one negative thing about my dogs, I bet you can't.


Titles and training mean a LOT. For one, they mean that the dog is trainable. An untrainable dog is not going to find a very good home. Titles show that a dog is athletic, in good physical health and shape, and that they are able to keep their cool in a show ring with hundreds of people around them. Titles show a dog's soundness and reliability. There are dozens of reasons why titling dogs is important. IMHO if a breeder doesn't take the time to even try and properly _train_ their dogs, then that breeder is just in it for a quick profit.


----------



## jcojocaru

Snickelfritz said:


> I'm curious to know how old OP is, and if he is not of legal age, wouldn't it be the parents responsibility to adopt out, rehome, sell or place the puppies in rescue?
> 
> I've learned allot about BYB, when I first got Heidi almost 6 years ago, I was going to do the exact same thing. Until I started reading about all of the problems that can happen.
> 
> I guess I was lucky I read first, and didn't just find a stud dog. I'd be the one on here being lectured, and persecuted. (I'm saying persecuted, because I think that's how the OP feels).
> 
> What's done is done, and I think we just have to believe that he will spay his female, and hopefully neuter the male.
> 
> I just look forward to seeing more puppy pictures, and hopefully fantastic homes for them in the next 2 months.
> 
> I hope the OP's mom and dad are heavily involved in bonding and socializing the puppies, and wellness exams for them.


Now posts like yours I can respect. You ask questions rather than judge intention and make assumptions, all while calling me a liar. That's all I ask for. 

I'm 21. I'm not placing the pups through a rescue. They're going to people who I personally know. That way I can keep track of them and how they're being raised. Not only that but it's people close to me who will have them rather than random strangers.

My parents are involved as well and helping with anything they can. I am going to be responsible for shots/deworming/wellness etc. that is my first priority though people can't seem to believe me.

By lack of knowledge, I admit I was irresponsible. But beyond that, I have done everything in my power to make sure things go well. I now have 6 healthy pups, have not lost one. 

I may not stick around here. I came for help but I DESPISE an environment where people are judgmental, assume intention, and assume me to be a liar when I have been very sincere. I came for help, not hate and opinions. So i'll just think about sticking around but I wouldn't count on it. 

Thank you for asking questions the right way.


----------



## Lilie

jcojocaru;2369138 Tell me one negative thing about my dogs said:


> A person who is actively breeding that doesn't know whether to scratch one's butt or wind one's watch isn't doing the breed any favors. They are just looking for selfish gain.


----------



## KZoppa

okay seriously you are a BYB. End of story. You were ignorant enough in the beginning to think that because your dogs were related that the male wouldnt view her as mate material when she went into heat. Well one oops there. Chalk that up to not having the knowledge to connect the dots between the fact that animals are not like humans. Animals do not care one bit if they mate their sibling. Nature called, they answered. Plain and simple. 

You allowed your puppy to have puppies. Not only is that dangerous but it can also be mentally damaging to your bitch. Dont be surprised if she begins neglecting the puppies in a couple weeks and you end up having to take care of them. I know how trying that can be because my husband and I took care of a litter of 11 (yes 11!) that came from our roommates dogs 3 years ago. 

Just because you say your dogs are from good lines, doesnt mean anything unless you post their pedigrees for those with experience to read. Also, if you truly did get these dogs from someone responsible, you probably had to sign a contract, which i'm guessing included a clause somewhere in there (most do), that the dog(s) in question would not be bred until at least 2 years old and had been OFAed. Considering the dogs are still considered puppies, that would make your contract null and void. 

You have gotten advice from people who have YEARS of experience breeding RESPONSIBLY!!! and instead you've decided attacking people is better. Well way to win friends and influence people. Being young doesnt excuse stupid acts.

I do have to admit though that I agree, some people should be fixed. Are you first in line? Just curious. You mentioned people should stop reproducing and stop contributing to the human overpopulation so i'm just wondering what steps you will be taking to ensure you do your part to reduce the human overpopulation. I mean, you have to take one step in the right direction since you seem so set on contributing to the pet overpopulation problem which actually is not the fault of responsible breeders. Backyard Breeders, such as yourself, are to blame for that one. 

You can use whatever excuse you want. We've heard plenty. 

'I just want my kids to experience the miracle of birth!' - watch national geographic. 
'I think every animal deserves to experience motherhood' - sorry they dont actually care. Nature is nature. they don't make a conscious decision on it. 
'I didnt think he would mate her because she is his sister'. 

A backyard breeder is a backyard breeder is a backyard breeder.


----------



## Snickelfritz

jcojocaru said:


> By lack of knowledge, I admit I was irresponsible. But beyond that, I have done everything in my power to make sure things go well. I now have 6 healthy pups, have not lost one.
> 
> I may not stick around here. I came for help but I DESPISE an environment where people are judgmental, assume intention, and assume me to be a liar when I have been very sincere. I came for help, not hate and opinions. So i'll just think about sticking around but I wouldn't count on it.


Yes, I understand. When I was 21, I was pretty much fresh out of 4-H (Intermediate Obedience Training and Show). I didn't have the money for a purebred, I had an awesome GSD mix, she was incredible. She was spayed though. After she died. My neighbor had a Pit Bull Female, she was young. Probably around 8 months by the time I convinced my neighbor to give her to me.

He said she was in heat, as soon as I got her home, I knew it wasn't heat. She had parvo, probably for a few days. Rushed her to the Vet (this was back in 1992 - 1994, yes I'm dating me lol) and amazingly she survived. Back then there was hardly any chance of dogs surviving parvo.

Well, that was one expensive Vet Bill. Didn't have her spayed. She was an escape artist. I also had gotten a black lab/gsd male around this time. He was young, around 6 mos or so. Now I *knew* better. But lack of funds and not properly keeping them seperated, well we had not one, but TWO litters of puppies within a year and a half of each other.

The last litter she had, I think she had about 11 puppies each time, I took the $20.00 each that I was selling them for, and had her spayed. Both times, the pups and mom were taken to the vet for check ups as well, I administered their shots myself at home. I wouldn't necessarily recommend administering shots unless you know how to do it. 

So I was a backyard breeder, a mutt backyard breeder nonetheless. But I learned my lesson. I always wondered how many ended up at the pound or were brought to dog fighting rings. Always made me feel really bad. I tried even back then to draw up a handwritten contract that they need to call me if they ever decide to give up the pup. Never heard from a one of them. So who knows what happened to those puppies. That right there, made me decide not to let accidental breedings happen again.

But like I said, when I got Heidi, she was a papered GSD. I thought, what the ****, let's have puppies! Low and behold though, here's the internet with all this scarey stuff about how the females die, expensive vet visits etc... So, I heeded all the warnings and didn't breed her. Still need to have her fixed!!! I'm guilty of that, I'm afraid too now though, seeing she's almost 6 years old. I don't want her to go through extra pain, but I don't want an accidental litter either. I've been real lucky so far. :blush:


----------



## jcojocaru

Lilie said:


> A person who is actively breeding that doesn't know whether to scratch one's butt or wind one's watch isn't doing the breed any favors. They are just looking for selfish gain.


Am I actively breeding? did I say I was selling the pups for more than medical expenses? Thanks for adding to this judgmental environment.


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## ladyfreckles

jcojocaru said:


> Am I actively breeding? did I say I was selling the pups for more than medical expenses? Thanks for adding to this judgmental environment.





> *breed·ing*/ˈbrēdiNG/
> Noun:
> The mating and production of offspring by animals.
> The activity of controlling the mating and production of offspring of animals.


Yes, you are breeding.


----------



## Lilie

jcojocaru said:


> Am I actively breeding? did I say I was selling the pups for more than medical expenses? Thanks for adding to this judgmental environment.


Oh gosh. I'm sorry. I thought you just had a litter. My bad.


----------



## Snickelfritz

ladyfreckles said:


> Yes, you are breeding.



The dogs bred. Past tense. Now there are puppies on the ground.

He has said he won't let it happen again. 
Let us believe him please. 
He intends to spay the bitch. 

I just want more puppy pictures, through the whole process until they are placed in new homes. :help:


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## KZoppa

Snickelfritz said:


> The dogs bred. Past tense. Now there are puppies on the ground.
> 
> He has said he won't let it happen again.
> Let us believe him please.
> He intends to spay the bitch.
> 
> I just want more puppy pictures, through the whole process until they are placed in new homes. :help:


 
i'm sorry but I cant have the faith in someone who has proven how clueless they are and refuses to take the advice given because its not exactly what they wanted to hear. And if memory serves, the OP stated the dogs werent going to be fixed because its unnatural and they dont believe in it. Why would a litter on the ground change something they're so set on? And wanting to keep a couple of the puppies. Who believes we wont be having this same thing happen all over again only with heavier inbreeding? I dont buy it and personally, I wouldnt spend the money even if I believed it a little bit. The OP has proven he'd rather argue and think we're all useless.


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## NancyJ

Why don't we all cool our jets. 
We know stuff can go south with new puppies real quick.

Whether or not the OP stays is his business but lets just be civil and helpful (all sides) until they are out the door and, hopefully, in good homes.

FWIW Mods can only do things with forum sections they can moderate. Admins can do everything.


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## martemchik

I have to admit, Max is a beautiful dog, but I'm just disappointed that no pedigree has ever been posted, or even a mention of a sire/dam. The OP keeps saying they come from great lines and they did all this research, but won't give away the names so that others could critique. I'm 23 years old and I know that I can't look at a pedigree and tell what's what, but maybe this person can. I doubt they can write novels about it like carmen does when she posts about a pedigree, but I've been proven wrong before.

I think just casual involvement in the world of showing and titling would really turn this person's mind around on what it means to have a titled dog. I was of the same mindset before I purchased my dog, but it took me a year of involvement in a GSD club in order to change my opinion on breeding and the worth of dogs in general. Maybe the OP can find a club, where they can be mentored and shown how much it really matters, but until then, no amount of words on this forum will change that opinion. Trust me, I've been through it.


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## Snickelfritz

KZoppa said:


> i'm sorry but I cant have the faith in someone who has proven how clueless they are and refuses to take the advice given because its not exactly what they wanted to hear.
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> KZoppa said:
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> That's rude. He has taken some advice, and just because he isn't posting that he's taken all the advice given doesn't mean that he hasn't thought about it. You don't know that.
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> And if memory serves, the OP stated the dogs werent going to be fixed because its unnatural and they dont believe in it.
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> He also stated after he said that, that he was going to fix the female. Can't someone change their mind after some good advice? See, he did take advice, it's not like he can go out and spay her right this second for crying out loud.
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> Someone said he was actively breeding, I said "bred" past tense there's a litter on the ground. Who cares if he wants to keep some puppies, is that your decision to make???
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> Who believes we wont be having this same thing happen all over again only with heavier inbreeding?
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> I believe it won't happen again. That's who. I think he's learned from this. People do learn you know. Haven't you???
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> dont buy it and personally, I wouldnt spend the money even if I believed it a little bit.
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> Never asked to see any money, and I never asked anyone to buy anything:laugh:
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> The OP has proven he'd rather argue and think we're all useless.
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> He feels attacked, personally I'd feel the same way. He's trying to argue his point that he knows he was wrong, he's stated that over and over. He's trying to right his mistake, give it a break. He's young, he's learning. I bet he's read the advice quite a bit, and will take some of it to heart. Not every piece of advice I've ever been given I follow through on. That's my right and my choice, he will decide what's best. He also has parents at home that might say hey, let's get the dogs fixed ok.
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## jcojocaru

martemchik said:


> I have to admit, Max is a beautiful dog, but I'm just disappointed that no pedigree has ever been posted, or even a mention of a sire/dam. The OP keeps saying they come from great lines and they did all this research, but won't give away the names so that others could critique. I'm 23 years old and I know that I can't look at a pedigree and tell what's what, but maybe this person can. I doubt they can write novels about it like carmen does when she posts about a pedigree, but I've been proven wrong before.
> 
> I think just casual involvement in the world of showing and titling would really turn this person's mind around on what it means to have a titled dog. I was of the same mindset before I purchased my dog, but it took me a year of involvement in a GSD club in order to change my opinion on breeding and the worth of dogs in general. Maybe the OP can find a club, where they can be mentored and shown how much it really matters, but until then, no amount of words on this forum will change that opinion. Trust me, I've been through it.


I have the pedigree and papers, I just don't like posting my stuff online... I take this stuff to my friend who is highly experienced and trained because I trust him. and believe me, he is highly qualified. I just don't want to get too into detail about certain things unless I need to (like this thread for example).


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## RocketDog

martemchik said:


> I have to admit, Max is a beautiful dog, but I'm just disappointed that no pedigree has ever been posted, or even a mention of a sire/dam. The OP keeps saying they come from great lines and they did all this research, but won't give away the names so that others could critique. I'm 23 years old and I know that I can't look at a pedigree and tell what's what, but maybe this person can. I doubt they can write novels about it like carmen does when she posts about a pedigree, but I've been proven wrong before.
> 
> I think just casual involvement in the world of showing and titling would really turn this person's mind around on what it means to have a titled dog. I was of the same mindset before I purchased my dog, but it took me a year of involvement in a GSD club in order to change my opinion on breeding and the worth of dogs in general. Maybe the OP can find a club, where they can be mentored and shown how much it really matters, but until then, no amount of words on this forum will change that opinion. Trust me, I've been through it.


You are wise beyond your years. Your momma would be proud.


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## KZoppa

Just stating my opinion. Rude or not, its true. I'll even go back a re-read the thread to make sure i didnt miss something.


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## KZoppa

jcojocaru said:


> I have the pedigree and papers, I just don't like posting my stuff online... I take this stuff to my friend who is highly experienced and trained because I trust him. and believe me, he is highly qualified. I just don't want to get too into detail about certain things unless I need to (like this thread for example).


 
perhaps posting the pedigree's would help calm down the nonsense of this thread. What is your highly qualified friends name? Perhaps some of the more experienced handlers know him and can vouch for him. And most dogs, repsonsibly bred, can be found on Pedigreedatabase.com so its not like it would be a huge secret. All a pedigree would show is the dogs lineage.


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## martemchik

And theres your problem. You pick and choose what you want to post. You say people are highly qualified, but you never say what makes them qualified. They are qualified according to you, and you never back up those qualifications with things that other people would care about and if they were true probably agree with you. It would give you credibility! I know how it feels to be the young one around people with years of experience, just throwing around words like you do doesn't do us any good, trust me.

This one piece of information would probably get half of these people off your back without the need for name calling or what not. If you really did choose great dogs, people would see that you do know what you are talking about! But just saying that doesn't mean anything.

Like I said, Max is a beautiful dog (with a great name), but there are a lot of great looking dogs with questionable genetics. I think you would be surprised how a couple of health checks, a couple of titles, would've changed the conversation on this thread.


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## Castlemaid

ENOUGH with the lecturing posts!!! 

This thread is about the whelping and post-partum care of the pups. Those that have attacked the OP on just about everything from honest questions, to her motives, to the background of the parents are out of line. 

I suggest the OP starts another thread asking for help and advice for finding good homes for the puppies, as many members here are involved in rescue and have a lot of experience in that area.


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## GSDGunner

This started it:


> Wow you all just need to relax. It's 4m 2f. I just couldn't tell because the pups are really squirmy and I decided to just leave them alone for now. it's like a lot of you just skip every word I say. No, i'm not going to place them through a rescue. Your hatred for byb's is rather pathetic. I would understand if it was for a byb who didnt care about his dogs/puppies but am I that person? No. I already have 3 friends who want one. Don't contribute to overpopulation? why is it ok to breed at all then? Just because you have titles and championships, you can add to overpopulation? Maybe you should place your children through adoption because "you're contributing to overpopulation". It's pathetic really, how good you all think you are, and the moment I thank you for the help you go right back to the snobby little selves you really are. Next time I won't come here for help. I'll manage fine without your help. You guys do quite a lot of fear-mongering and should be ashamed of yourselves. The only reason I was so stressed out and worried in the first place is because some of the crap I was given. Before you judge me and my age, perhaps you should judge yourselves for lack of maturity.


For the life of me I don't understand this reply! Maybe someone missed where you brought them inside. Big deal, so what? It happens. I fail to see where ANYONE called you a liar or any names for that matter.
Sit back, chill out and try to learn something here.
Getting you hackles up and going off in a huff isn't going to help you, your dogs or those puppies.
That above quoted post is what got everyone riled up. Go back and read the posts prior to this and short of one maybe sarcastic post, the rest were giving you advice.

Sorry Castlemaid, I just saw your post as I hit the send button. FWIW, I hope the OP still gets the advice she needs. But an attitude adjustment is in serious order first.


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## jcojocaru

KZoppa said:


> perhaps posting the pedigree's would help calm down the nonsense of this thread. What is your highly qualified friends name? Perhaps some of the more experienced handlers know him and can vouch for him. And most dogs, repsonsibly bred, can be found on Pedigreedatabase.com so its not like it would be a huge secret. All a pedigree would show is the dogs lineage.


It's not about it being a secret. I have nothing to prove. I know what I need to know. I don't want to bring my friend into this, as I do not know if/if not anyone will find a way to contact him to bother him about me, as well as bring me embarrassment. He knows everything that's going on with my dogs. I don't need vouch of other breeders for him. But even with as little as I know about breeding, I am 100% certain of him and his work. There's not a breeder I could trust more. And i'm not saying this because he's a friend.

I don't want to get into the details unless I actually need to. The only details i'm interested in is getting the proper care and wellness for my dogs. I have taken and acted according to nearly all advice given. Fine, i'm a byb. I don't care, that's not the issue. The issue is I want to be sure I do a great job with these pups. 

I'm sorry to those I insulted. I was immature and admit it. Just please understand these last 3 months have been extremely difficult for me. If you really want the details on why, I can tell you. But it has taken a toll on me, and though not justified, had some affect on my answers.


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## jcojocaru

GSDGunner said:


> This started it:
> For the life of me I don't understand this reply! Maybe someone missed where you brought them inside. Big deal, so what? It happens. I fail to see where ANYONE called you a liar or any names for that matter.
> Sit back, chill out and try to learn something here.
> Getting you hackles up and going off in a huff isn't going to help you, your dogs or those puppies.
> That above quoted post is what got everyone riled up. Go back and read the posts prior to this and short of one maybe sarcastic post, the rest were giving you advice.
> 
> Sorry Castlemaid, I just saw your post as I hit the send button. FWIW, I hope the OP still gets the advice she needs. But an attitude adjustment is in serious order first.


Attitude can be adjusted all around, not just me. I can admit, can you? I'm here for help. Attacking me for a byb litter or saying things that don't help my pups, is not help but adding to the problem.


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## GSDBESTK9

jcojocaru said:


> Attitude can be adjusted all around, not just me. I can admit, can you? I'm here for help. Attacking me for a byb litter or saying things that don't help my pups, is not help but adding to the problem.


Good for you for sticking around and wanting to learn.


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## NancyJ

jcojocaru said:


> Attitude can be adjusted all around, not just me. I can admit, can you? I'm here for help. Attacking me for a byb litter or saying things that don't help my pups, is not help but adding to the problem.


Well said. Lets move on and be the good helpful folks we can all be!


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## lhczth

This thread is no longer serving any purpose.


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