# Sit Means Sit



## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

What do you think of a training method that seems to be based on the e-collar? My neighbor is using this with her 4 month old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. You know, a breed known for dominant and vicious behavior. I feel sorry for poor little Lily. She's such a sweet, docile little baby. Seems like overkill.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Have not trained with one but trained appropriately and under the right circumstances it can be an appropriate and useful tool in training. IMO, using it with a four month old puppy most of the time is not appropriate or under the right circumstance.


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## reflex_0 (May 18, 2010)

I would not use E collar unless dogs are older than 6 months old. 

If you set it at the right working level, it is a wonderful tool to train your dog without creating stress and conflict.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

reflex_0 said:


> I would not use E collar unless dogs are older than 6 months old.
> 
> If you set it at the right working level, it is a wonderful tool to train your dog without creating stress and conflict.


Would it be your tool of first choice meaning, would it be the primary tool you used to train every dog?


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

paulag1955 said:


> Would it be your tool of first choice meaning, would it be the primary tool you used to train every dog?


Absolutely not, and especially not on a young puppy like little Lily. There are a number of ways to go, this is just one approach (which by the way is often NOT used correctly.) Everyone thinks it's wonderful because it generally results in faster learning (if you had a collar around your neck when you were learning to type for example, which gave you an electric correction when you made a mistake, you'd probably speed up and get it right too...) I think a puppy should be having fun, with toys and treats not e-collars. 
_______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I can see and understand the value for a big, rowdy, ADD-type (and older) puppy or dog or a dog that had proven to be extremely stubborn but watching the trainer with Lily...honestly she looked like she was afraid to move. It was awful to watch. I almost feel like crying just thinking about it.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally I don't see the value of using an e-collar for obedience/basic training. It seems like way overkill to me.


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## Keka (Jul 28, 2010)

I used alpa type training on our lab 20 years ago. Now I'm using rewards. IMO electric collars are dangerous if used when frustrated. If it's the type I'm thinking of it'a all too easy to crank it up when you should be walking away. I'm much more patient than I used to be and if a walk or training session isn't going well, I end it.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Chicagocanine said:


> Personally I don't see the value of using an e-collar for obedience/basic training. It seems like way overkill to me.


It is - but it's become the fad tool of choice. People in agility are using it now if you can believe it. It's just so EASY - and since you aren't the one feeling it, it is also easy to crank it up to the point I have seen in SchH clubs, where the dog is crying out and shaking its head because it is so uncomfortable. Max von Stephanitz said that it was the trainer who was responsible for the mistakes not the dog - and I think that is true. One doesn't know if he would have approved of the e-collar or not, but for sure I don't think he would have approved of many of the people wielding one. I too am sorry for Lily - she should have been clicker trained and having fun.
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge

Anja SchH3 GSD


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> Personally I don't see the value of using an e-collar for obedience/basic training. It seems like way overkill to me.


Great tool for recall training,IF it is used properly!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

While true that E-collars are often used incorrectly, then can be excellent tools and are not necessarily only used to let a dog know when they are wrong, but can also help a dog to learn when they are right. It's all about how you set up and condition the dog to respond to the collar. 

And while E-collars are popular, their precursors were throw chains...so I think we've got an improvement. Especially with modern models that can be so finely adjusted and are more reliable.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

What is a throw chain?


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

JKlatsky said:


> While true that E-collars are often used incorrectly, then can be excellent tools and are not necessarily only used to let a dog know when they are wrong, but can also help a dog to learn when they are right. It's all about how you set up and condition the dog to respond to the collar.
> 
> And while E-collars are popular, their precursors were throw chains...so I think we've got an improvement. Especially with modern models that can be so finely adjusted and are more reliable.


I'm still waiting to see one being used to help a dog learn when it's right........the best assessment of e-collars was in Vandal's Fat Lady post, page 22. I don't like them for the same reasons she doesn't.
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

come on, a King Charles, overkill is not the word!!!!!



paulag1955 said:


> What do you think of a training method that seems to be based on the e-collar? My neighbor is using this with her 4 month old Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. You know, a breed known for dominant and vicious behavior. I feel sorry for poor little Lily. She's such a sweet, docile little baby. Seems like overkill.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> come on, a King Charles, overkill is not the word!!!!!


It's insane, isn't it?


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

That's completely ridiculous.

Minna is three months old, I couldn't imagine using that on her. Puppy's want to learn and soak up training.....you just have put in a little work. Even Sobacca (who's 4 and stubborn and likes to shut his ears off) is loving his recall training that we've been doing! -- he WANTS to learn new things and listen and get rewards; I couldn't imagine punishing him. If he's not listening to a command, it's my fault for not teaching it/working on it until he got it.

There are probably extreme cases where it's needed; but honestly a four month old Spaniel....can't imagine she needs it. Poor Lily...


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I do not like them, they take the lazy route. 

There was a big boxer mix in one video who was severely HA/DA. As 'training' they shocked the crap out of him until he was too scared of the pain to react. He associated the pain obviously with his behavior, but, my thoughts, are that using a 'quick fix' method is not the way to train with behavioral issues. 

Did the same with a smaller bulldog mutt, that dog had something WRONG with him mentally, he needed to be humanely put down, not put through 'training' that is most likely nothing but a temporary fix. 
Here is the mix. Big boy who's got some problems.. to put it lightly.





I am not anti-shock collar. I know there are some instances where it can save the dog's life. HOWEVER, I do NOT think you should use pain to change behavior.


Watching their awesomely trained GSD here... they seem to train like Bark Busters. (dog must be behind you no matter what, and if it passes you in a doorway, on steps, on walk, it is trying to dominate you!) And the dog's body language throughout does not look like a dog who's just happy to work and focus on you because it wants to please you, she/he looks like they're doing it so they won't get a correction.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Anytime I see somebody training with an e-collar, the dog is working out of fear. And it always has a very stressed expression. I could see using an e-collar (properly) for perfecting behaviors for an upcoming trial, but not for basic house dog training. Never used one myself and I do Rally and have a dog with a CD.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Exactly, Carole. 

I'm just watching the shepherd in the video, ears glued to her head, not in the assured relaxed way, but in the "I'm scared" way, and slinking body, low head... Just none of it is a happy dog.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

JKlatsky said:


> And while E-collars are popular, their precursors were throw chains...so I think we've got an improvement. Especially with modern models that can be so finely adjusted and are more reliable.


Some (professional) trainers are still using throw chains, or at least they were a few years ago... I know a trainer who had all students of her basic obedience classes buy a set (that was about 5-7 years ago.)


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what's a throw chain????


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> what's a throw chain????


I had to Google it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

BlackPuppy said:


> Anytime I see somebody training with an e-collar, the dog is working out of fear. And it always has a very stressed expression.


Then they are usingt he e-collar incorrectly. I use one on Keeta and there is never a look of fear of stress when she has the collar on. I use it to work the recall as she is unreliable off leash with distractions. The many setting allows me to use the lowest possible stimulation that she can feel, without causing pain. 

There is more to training a dog than letting it know when it did something wrong. 

I trained initially using positive rewards. Keeta first had to learn HOW to learn. Having been a tied dog previously, the concept that there were expectations on her behaviour, and that she had choices in behaviour were a foreign concept to her. Puppies are not developed enough to grasp those concepts - and their attention span and memory is so short, that what they learn one day, they forget the next, so of course they will forget stuff, and make mistakes, and it is completely unfair to use punishing training methods on such young dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Any aversive at a young age (like throw chains) can cause life-long trauma. I know some people who used the coins-in-a-can noise maker to train their border terriers, and the dogs grew up terrified of any metallic/clanking sound. If anyone so much as opened a soda can, they ran and hid.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

paulag1955 said:


> I had to Google it.


Just to clarify, one of the rules the trainer I mentioned was not telling people to hit the dog with the chain, it was supposed to be thrown near the dog to startle them (the chains make a lot of noise when they hit the ground.) In fact I never knew there were trainers who say to actually throw it AT the dog until I read that link.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Chicagocanine said:


> Just to clarify, one of the rules the trainer I mentioned was not telling people to hit the dog with the chain, it was supposed to be thrown near the dog to startle them (the chains make a lot of noise when they hit the ground.) In fact I never knew there were trainers who say to actually throw it AT the dog until I read that link.


And that's the problem. Look at any training tool out there and people will find a way to abuse it. (And I too was under the impression that chains were to be thrown near, not at, the dog.) For every person who uses them correctly, many many more will not, and my problem with the e-collar is that it makes it so easy to just keep hitting that button. Not so easy with other methods which actually require physical participation on the part of the handler. It's all about control now, it used to be about having fun, look at some of the old videos on YouTube of dogs training in Germany in the 30's - everyone was having a whale of a good time! 
____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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