# Have pedigree; have questions



## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Hello, i'm new to this forum and new to AKC standards. My wife and I have found two GSDs at purebredbreeders.com that we believe are adorable - siblings, in fact. I have asked for the pedigree for them and the attached docs were sent to me. A rep at PBB.com told me that they do not register dogs with the AKC and that we can register them once we decide on the names for our dogs (sounded logical). As I thought about this more, a question arose . . . if the dogs have no formal names yet, is AKC registration even possible? Also, the pedigrees they sent - they could be for ANY GSD, right? How do I know if the lineage on the pedigree are indeed related to the dogs that are for sale? Is there a way for me to know with certainty whether I'd be getting what is being pitched on the website? Does anyone have any experience - good or bad - with PBB.com? Thanks for any help you can provide.


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## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

What the heck is PBB.com? A puppy broker??? ? Someone please correct me if my gut instincts to flee far and fast are wrong? Never seen this before.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I hope it isn't too late --- do not get TWO LITTERMATES !!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Not endorsing this breeder or getting two puppies at the same time, just wanted to answer your question about registrations.

Breeders don't necessarily register individual puppies but they do register the litter. As long as the litter has been registered you should be able to register a puppy from that litter.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes PLEASE DO NOT support this!

Please research, Research, *RESEARCH*! and look at threads on this site about looking for a puppy.  


There are many qualified people here to assist you! A little info will help!

*Which "Type" of GSD are you looking for? German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide (Click on TYPE)

*What activities or sports do you plan on doing with him/her.

*What type of lifestyle do you have that will include the dog?

*Tell a little about yourself/your family!


*What is your price range? (usual is $1,600 to $3,000)


*What state are you in and how far are you willing to travel (hours/miles)?


*Are you willing to have a dog shipped?

Here are some good reading materials!
(German Shepherd and Schutzhund Articles, by Wildhaus Kennels ) 


Things to look for in a 'Responsible' Breeder

German Shepherd Guide - Home


BTW, Welcome to you both! :greet:

Moms


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, the breeder has to register the litter, then they send with your puppy the registration application. Without it, your puppy cannot be registered through the AKC. 

There is NO acceptable reason for a breeder not to register a litter out of an AKC registered dog and an AKC registered bitch. It cost $2/pup plus about $30. So if there are 8 puppies, it would cost $46. No breeder without sanctions against them would not do this for the puppies/new puppy buyers. It is in their interest to do it. The only reason not to do it, is, if the breeder has been suspended by the AKC, or if they are giving puppies away for free and do not want people making puppies out of them. If someone has been suspended by the AKC, then they cannot sell puppies that the AKC will register, because they have proven themselves untrustworthy, unethical, or cruel to their animals. 

Don't walk, run away from people that are running this sort of business. The only way they will stop the behavior is to be unable to make money on it. Buying a pup, even for half price, even for less than what others are selling pups for, will keep these people going, and that generally means it will keep dogs suffering. Don't be a part of that problem.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Drescher Haus is a reputable breeder as far as I know. That's really sad that one of their dogs ended up in this situation. 

To answer your questions....

1. The site listed is nothing more than a broker site.

2. Correct, you have no way of knowing if the puppy you receive is actually the puppy from the pedigree. Breeders dont' care. Brokers don't care. A paper goes with an animal and the buyer is happy. No questions asked until someone comes on a site like this with a sable and shows pictures of two black and tan parents (genetically impossible!)

3. That pedigree looks working line. How these dogs ended up in the hands of someone that sells thru a broker is probably a sad story.
This is the sire's pedigree
Litter from Gunther Von Rivers and Lou Lou Vom Rivers
Mother's pedigree
Greta Vom Drescher Haus

4. So you have this working line pedigree that you really know nothing about. You have one line in that pedigree known for handler aggression and high aggression. I see Czech lines in there that could mean the dogs are harder dogs.

5. I bet they are charging a pretty penny for those puppies as well! A working line puppy, directly from a reputable breeder is $1500-$2500. A breeder that supplies a health guarantee, a health history from their lines, and lifetime support. Not just a guarantee thru a broker site that may or may not be worth more than the ink on it.

6. RUN RUN RUN from this site. 

7. Tell us what you are interested in (lines, activity level, color) and we can recommend good breeders to you.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

carmspack said:


> I hope it isn't too late --- do not get TWO LITTERMATES !!



Not sure that I understand. The siblings are male. If you mean that I shouldn't get a male and female from the same litter for breeding, then sure, I understand.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The likelihood of two same age males fighting at maturity, @2 years of age, is very high.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

selzer said:


> Yes, the breeder has to register the litter, then they send with your puppy the registration application. Without it, your puppy cannot be registered through the AKC.
> 
> Ok, bare with me. I'm not understanding how the AKC system maintains integrity. If I were to buy a puppy (from anyone) and the seller states that the puppy is "full registration AKC" and I believe him/her, then I would get the pedigree and puppies. Can I then use that AKC documented pedigree to register my puppy with the AKC? Does AKC work on the honor system? This can't be right. What am I missing?


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> No questions asked until someone comes on a site like this with a sable and shows pictures of two black and tan parents (genetically impossible!).
> 
> In all fairness to purebredbreeders.com, the rep did state that the mother was solid black and the dad black/brown. As I recall, the image on the site showed the puppies as black/brown. The rep also reiterated what was stated here . . . that the litter is registered with the AKC and that we would use the documentation provided to register our puppies (if we bought them). After reading what I've found here, I see that I'll need to study this thing a lot more before making a decision.
> 
> ...


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The likelihood of two same age males fighting at maturity, @2 years of age, is very high.


Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

riderjwc said:


> Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.


I should have added that female / female aggression can be quite common too and can be rather nasty.

If you would get two puppies, I would get one of each sex.

I see you also are looking for a German Shepherd with little aggression. A well bred German Shepherd should have at least a modicum of human aggression. The standard calls for them to protect and guard. I am sure there are breeders that have litters with little to no aggression. If you do decide to get a pup, or two, please carefully do your homework to find a breeder that is producing dogs that should have the genetic temperament you are looking for.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Google littermate syndrome. Don't get two puppies. You're asking for co-dependency


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

rider - it is soooooooo easy to fall in love with pics of a puppy - or two!! ALL puppies are drop-dead cute, and we can get emotionally invested in just a picture. Those broker websites are carefully set up to hit all the right buttons, to say all the right things. Puppy mills (and brokers/sellers for puppy mills) know what to say and how to say things so it all sounds legit and impressive. Don't be fooled!! It is not!

I took a look through the GSD pups posted on the site - to tell the truth, they don't look like pups from good breeding. They don't look like pups that would be produced from the pedigrees you posted. Some of the pups don't even look like pure bred GSDs! I see some Husky and other breeds mixed in, yet here they are, selling them for big bucks, representing them as pure-bred dogs, with fake pedigrees. 

You are right in questioning the authentication of the pedigree - they can be faked, or they could be sending you any two pedigrees they have on hand. That is the reason that it is important to go to a trusted breeder with a good reputation, someone with integrity, someone who would never try to lie and trick their puppy-buyers, or mis-represent themselves or the origin of their pups. 

You seem like a pretty savy dog-buyer that you picked up on the pedigree question, so I'm sure that all this info is a gold-mine for you. Take a few minutes to read through these links, be an educated, knowledgeable buyer and dog person. I took many of us YEARS of reading and being involved in dogs to learn the ins of navigating bad puppy mill/dog broker sites, and recognizing good breeders and breeding practices. You are benefiting from this collective knowledge, please don't dismiss what people are saying because the broker on the phone said "such and such". 

Getting litter mates (or two puppies close in age): BAD IDEA. In fact, it is such a bad idea that there are many articles written about how much of a bad idea it is available on the internet from trusted sources, and they explain why:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...67994-should-i-get-two-puppies-dogs-once.html

Also, websites like you linked are so common, we have a sticky that helps explain what some of these sites are all about. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/626034-spotting-puppy-mill-breeder-sites.html


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> rider - it is soooooooo easy to fall in love with pics of a puppy - or two!! ALL puppies are drop-dead cute, and we can get emotionally invested in just a picture. *Those broker websites are carefully set up to hit all the right buttons, to say all the right things. Puppy mills (and brokers/sellers for puppy mills) know what to say and how to say things so it all sounds legit and impressive. Don't be fooled!! It is not!*
> 
> I took a look through the GSD pups posted on the site - to tell the truth, they don't look like pups from good breeding. They don't look like pups that would be produced from the pedigrees you posted. Some of the pups don't even look like pure bred GSDs! I see some Husky and other breeds mixed in, yet here they are, selling them for big bucks, representing them as pure-bred dogs, with fake pedigrees.
> 
> ...


^^^yes, Yes and YES^^^ :wink2:

PLEASE have an opened mind, and read all of above and more. 
You need to CAREFULLY consider .... before embarking on this possible 10-15 year journey with a GSD.

Best of luck to you,
Moms


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> We don't want to breed but we want two so they can keep each other company. They will be outside dogs. My wife and I have no kids and probably won't have any in the future. We're in our late 40's. We want intelligent dogs and we've both always admired the the looks of the GSD. We're open to other shepherds but don't know a lot about any of the shepherd breeds. I've had dogs all my life - various breeds but no German Shepherds. My wife has never owned a dog (only cats). We'll walk them, play ball with them but, for the most part, we want them for companionship as we age. We have a yard large enough for them to run and play together (another reason we want two - so they'll run each other to death instead of running us to death). We want dogs with even temperaments - nothing aggressive.


Dogs don't really do as great a job keeping each other company as you may think. Its the relationship with you that matters most. Its generally a lot easier to raise and train 1 puppy, then if you want two dogs, get another one later. For me, that's usually better at around 2 years.

If I was you, I would meet some breeders and their dogs face to face. I wouldn't depend on an online description of their temperament. What I like may drive you crazy and everything makes more sense when you see the dogs in person.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

riderjwc said:


> Ok, bare with me. I'm not understanding how the AKC system maintains integrity. If I were to buy a puppy (from anyone) and the seller states that the puppy is "full registration AKC" and I believe him/her, then I would get the pedigree and puppies. Can I then use that AKC documented pedigree to register my puppy with the AKC? Does AKC work on the honor system? This can't be right. What am I missing?


Unlike the registries for a lot of other animals, the integrity of the AKC stud books rely on the integrity of the breeders, for good or bad. The only dogs that are required to be DNA profiled are imports, Frequently Used Sires (males who sire more than three litters in a year and/or sire more than seven litters in their lifetime), and males who are used for a Multiple Sire Litter. Other than that... 

If the breeder says that the puppies are registerable with the AKC then you would get a registration form, like the one shown in this link. Sample Application - American Kennel Club In order for the puppies to be registerable, the parents would have to have full registration. Dogs who have Limited or Conditional Registration cannot have any offspring registered.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

LeoRose said:


> Unlike the registries for a lot of other animals, the integrity of the AKC stud books rely on the integrity of the breeders, for good or bad.


Ok. The honor system. Got it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

riderjwc said:


> Ok, bare with me. I'm not understanding how the AKC system maintains integrity. If I were to buy a puppy (from anyone) and the seller states that the puppy is "full registration AKC" and I believe him/her, then I would get the pedigree and puppies. Can I then use that AKC documented pedigree to register my puppy with the AKC? Does AKC work on the honor system? This can't be right. What am I missing?



Like GUILT - Integrity is presumed until proven otherwise! 


Let's define the terms....

PEDIGREE is a document of the dog's ancestry - parents, grandparents, great grandparents.....some breeders provide this document, some do not. You can purchase this document from the AKC

REGISTRATION - 2 parts to this

1. Application - some people will give you an application which you send to the AKC with a fee to register your puppy. The breeder has to register the whole litter with the AKC. He gives the parents names and AKC numbers, the owner of the male must sign to indicate his male is the father and he is permitting the owner of the female to register the litter. Some people leave the name blank for the owner to fill in, some fill in a portion, some fill it in totally. This document also allows the breeder to indicate "FULL" or "LIMITED". Full has no restrictions on what the owner will do with the dog. Limited indicates the breeder does not allow the dog to produce puppies to be AKC registered. 

Some breeders, particularly those of us who breed to German registry criteria, will register the whole litter using the European system of naming pups in alphabetically consecutive letters and kennel name....these people are also more apt to sell on limited registration. 

2. Registration Certificate - this, like your auto title from your state DOT, states Owner, Breeder, Breed, Parents names and numbers. It is a certificate of origin and ownership. It is NOT an indication of quality. Your Kia gets the same certificate from your state DOT as does my boss' Rolls Royce.

AS above, Breeders who follow the SV criteria quite often will provide you with a certificate for the puppy which shows them as the breeder and the owner of record. I can say from experience, over half the buyers never bother to send these in for a transfer to their own name.

MAINTAINING INTEGRITY

As stated above, all imported dogs must be DNA tested. Any sire producing over 4 litters must be DNA tested. AKC apparently assumes that breeders will report the correct dam of the litter. A sire who is collected and frozen must have a DNA profile on record with the AKC.



Oh - and I agree - do not get littermates, do not get 2 of the same sex and actually - I would recommend waiting at least a year between pups.....

And GSDs should not live in the yard...they are very attuned to people, and are fondly called "velcro dogs"....Personally I would not sell a puppy to anyone who intended to do any one of these things, let alone both.

Lee


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Yes PLEASE DO NOT support this!
> 
> Please research, Research, *RESEARCH*! and look at threads on this site about looking for a puppy.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Momto2. Ok, the details. I've read most of the info at the links provided here on the website (my sincere thanks to everyone who contributed). My wife and I have re-visited the discussion on the characteristics we would like to have in our German Shepherd. Here are the specifics so far . . . 

1. We will get only one dog for now.

2. We would like him/her to be aggressive and intelligent enough to know instinctively when we need protection and to act upon that instinct without the necessity of a verbal or non-verbal command (after we bond, of course)

3. On a scale of 1-5 with 1=lethargic and 5=live wire, we're looking for a 3.

4. While I have no color preference, my wife prefers either solid black, black/gray or sable - in order of preference.

5. We prefer his/her hair to be short to medium in length.

6. He/she should be big-boned.

7. We live in NC and would be willing to travel up to 300 miles to get him/her.

8. Gender doesn't matter but we do want a puppy who is up-to-date on shots and has had all the normal medical tests PROVING perfect health (at least at the time of purchase). 

9. We don't want him to be pre-trained.

10. We plan for him to be an outside dog only.

11. He should be loyal and have substantial self-control and an even temperament - not moody or overtly aggressive. 

12. He should be very friendly and sociable but we don't want him to knock us down when we come home from work. I suppose some training may be required to keep paw prints off our faces - and we're willing to do that.

13. We would like him to travel with us from time to time when I visit my mom. She has a large yard, fenced on all 4 sides. Transportation would be by car - no flying.

14. We would spend up to $2,500 only if we believe we're getting an AKC registered GSD that meets our requirements. 

Again, we are late 40's, we don't have kids, we don't live on a farm, we don't have animals that need to be corralled/herded, we don't hunt, we are no longer involved in sports. We can walk or even jog with him and play fetch (though we do get tired after we've chased the ball 3 or 4 times). :grin2: We do have a young niece and nephew (age 7 and 3) that visit us from time to time so he would need to be predictably safe around them (we would introduce him to the kids early).

So, can anyone point us to the right breeder?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

riderjwc said:


> Thank you, Momto2. Ok, the details. I've read most of the info at the links provided here on the website (my sincere thanks to everyone who contributed). My wife and I have re-visited the discussion on the characteristics we would like to have in our German Shepherd. Here are the specifics so far . . .
> 
> 1. We will get only one dog for now.
> 
> ...



This is a huge deterrent for a good breeder......under these circumstances the most responsible and best breeders will not sell you a puppy.


Lee


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> 2. We would like him/her to be aggressive and intelligent enough to know instinctively when we need protection and to act upon that instinct without the necessity of a verbal or non-verbal command (after we bond, of course)


Just something to think about, but the outside only may be something for you to reconsider. The bond and obedience are something I find easier with time spent just hanging out with you. There's nothing wrong with outside dogs, but for what you want in a companion and everything else, it's a little better when they live as a companion with you, involved a little more in the different parts of how you live.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

riderjwc said:


> Thank you, Momto2. Ok, the details. I've read most of the info at the links provided here on the website (my sincere thanks to everyone who contributed). My wife and I have re-visited the discussion on the characteristics we would like to have in our German Shepherd. Here are the specifics so far . . .
> 
> 1. We will get only one dog for now.
> 
> ...



Oh boy. Most breeders are not going to like the "outside only" requirement. And you want this dog to be aggressive, social and not jump on you and you "suppose some training may be required"? Your exercise plans are walking and playing fetch? But your color requirements are working line? You want them to protect you instinctively?

I think your expectations are a recipe for disaster. These dogs take training for manners. They want to be with their people. They take exercise. They take training to teach them the skills and the obedience to control them for protection work.

IMO, and this is pretty blunt, you should either consider a different breed or educate yourself better on what to expect with a German Shepherd and adjust your expectations accordingly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It would really be better for you if you spent some time meeting breeder's and their dogs and trying to get out and see some of the dogs doing something, obedience, IPO, herding, anything. It will help you see temperament vs training and just give you a better perspective then reading some of these things.


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## Laura66 (May 1, 2016)

Just my 2 cents, NC can have some severe weather and keeping a dog outside in that type of weather does not seem like a good idea. I feel protected with my dogs in my house not outside however my dogs are family members and so they live inside with me. I can't imagine paying that kind of money to leave the dog outside? A dog can't bond with you if they are not with you. Just curious why the dog would not live in the house with you? Hope you reconsider


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Outside dogs may bark all day from boredom, dig holes, run a fence line and ruin a lawn. Outside dogs are exposed to people who may not have the best of intentions or children who do, but don't know how to interact with a dog. These are just some things to consider.

Also, outside dogs can require a lot more time and attention as they don't get to enjoy and partake of time spent with the family inside doing things or just hanging out.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

why outside only? just curious. unless it's for religious reasons or working farm or sled dogs. i don't get it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Someone needs to explain to my outside dogs that they are not allowed to bond with me.

Where the dog sleeps makes no difference at all. Yes, an lone pup all by itself outside is a sad thing. They will create nuisance behaviors because they are bored and more importantly, lonely. Dogs are pack animals. They do not belong all alone. A lone wolf will die, because they are made to work together, they are driven to pack up. 

Monty Roberts, was a trainer of horses. And horses are herd animals, and he used that drive to pack up or become part of a herd to win the trust and confidence of the horses, and then training is smooth and easy. Horses, being herbivores, and prey animals rather than predators, of course are different than dogs, but there are more similarities than we would think. They have both, horses and dogs, thrown in their lot with humans, accept the humans as the leader. People who have both dogs and horses, often feel for the horses the way we feel for our dogs, they buy them toys -- horses play. Horses become bored and will chew -- could be a big problem. Some horses bite -- they'll kick you too. They fight amongst themselves and not just the stallions. The main mare is often the herd leader though. The stallion will fight/chase off other stallions, but we follow the brood mares. 

Someone mentioned bulls on the other thread. LOL. How do you get the bulls to go where you want. You call your lead cow in, and when the cows are in, the bulls will follow. 

Ok, off track. I don't know of people keeping cows or bulls as pets, but they do treat horses like pets. And keeping a single horse in a barn, is not suggested. If you cannot afford two horses, then get a goat for company for the horse -- yep a pet for a pet. But the point is, horses get bored outside by themselves and boredom does cause issues. Keeping dogs outside does not cause issues at all though. The idea that you cannot bond with a critter that doesn't live in your house is ludicrous.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I think the problem is that the general public doesn't spend much time with an "outside" dog. Feed, water, throw a ball for a few minutes and go back in the house. I see it all the time around here.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Someone needs to explain to my outside dogs that they are not allowed to bond with me.
> 
> Where the dog sleeps makes no difference at all. Yes, an lone pup all by itself outside is a sad thing. They will create nuisance behaviors because they are bored and more importantly, lonely. Dogs are pack animals. They do not belong all alone. A lone wolf will die, because they are made to work together, they are driven to pack up.
> 
> ...


Rescues notoriously get dogs who have been kept alone outside and aren't behaving well. Most of my fosters have come to us as outside dogs who have never even been indoors. Completely untrained. Rescues won't give dogs to people who keep them outside because they are more likely to get loose again and land back in rescue. You have many dogs, you work them all the time. You are unusual and I mean that in a good way. In my experience, people who keep dogs outside don't train or socialize them. I got into a huge disagreement with a friend whose GSD has lived outside in a doghouse for five years and behaves terribly. She refuses to bring him inside, then wants help with him. My dogs are very sociable. They are OK outside for a while but eventually want to be inside. My neighbor has a GSD and when he's outside he barks constantly. He doesn't like to be alone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My worst barker is the Werewolf, who is inside. And, she barks inside AND outside. She can come in at will through her doggy door. She is the worst barker. She is young. She will mature. I hope.

Dogs don't like to be alone. Being in a kennel with another dog isn't alone. Being in a kennel next to another dog is not alone. They all know each other, even if it is rare for the one who was pretty much kept in the front with an old spayed girl, almost never saw the boy in the back kennel. When I let him go to a new home, he was two. It affected, even the youngster, Oscar in front, wouldn't eat for days. Weird. 

But, were I to leave one in the front kennel alone, that would be hard on them. They do not like being alone. Leaving them for long periods inside is the same deal, and behaviors like separation anxiety happen because of it. 

When dogs a put in the back yard all by themselves on a chain with a dog house in this climate, they create a mud pit. After a full day at work, coming home to a dog who is mud from snout to tail, can be more than someone wants to deal with, so they feed the dog and give it water, but that becomes the pattern. The dog is neglected because it is filthy. It barks and digs and chews because it is bored. When it is taken to the vet for shots it is terrified. 

It doesn't have to be that way. But it generally is, because people who would spend a lot of time with their dogs, will generally bring them inside as well, for the most part. Most of the people who keep dogs outside, are not going to be working with them, taking them places, playing with them, etc. And when the neighbors complain, or if he snaps at a vet tech, off to the shelter he goes. If he is lucky, a rescue will snag him, house train him, socialize him, find out if he is ok with kids and cats and other dogs and find someone who is right for him. Unfortunately, not many dogs win that lottery. 

Keeping the dog outside is something that needs a lot more explanation by the potential owner. It can work just fine. And yes, the dog will bond with the person. 

I don't know that we serve a wonderful purpose here though teaching potential German Shepherd owners exactly what things to tell breeders. Luckily, most potential buyers, tend to hang themselves if you give them enough rope. But telling them what breeders will not want to hear, I dunno. I think that is counter productive. When a potential buyer tells me things like, "Yeah, I taught my last dog not to go into the trash by duct taping rotted meat on her muzzle and leaving it there for 3 days." I just said, "Did that work?" I wanted that hag to be very proud of that and tell the next breeder she tried to get a pup from about it too.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Selzer, I think you made my point. If someone is getting one outside dog, that is not good for the dog. We agree on that.

I always wondered if horses got bored outside in a stall all day with nothing to do. A lot of horses that are for occasional riding, get no attention at all, other than feeding and cleaning the stalls. People ride them on weekends. That seems terrible. I'm not a horse owner so I'm not familiar with handling.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Are you willing to travel to Ohio Rider? Maybe you can get an outside only dog after all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, they get bored. They can go off their feed, they can develop bad habits, cribbing, kicking, biting, etc. They can easily injure themselves, and being injured, like putting a leg through a wall, they can rip tendons and stuff and need to be put down. 

My sister in law, has had a series of great horses who turned out to have one problem or another. Most of them she sold due to behavioral reasons. The last one died of colic. Sad. Anyone could have a horse die of colic, but she has a name around here amongst horse people. You cannot put a horse in a field or in a stall and do nothing with them all winter and expect them to be perfect months later when it comes time to start riding again. And, horses do not do well on their own.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

riderjwc said:


> Thank you, Momto2. Ok, the details. I've read most of the info at the links provided here on the website (my sincere thanks to everyone who contributed). My wife and I have re-visited the discussion on the characteristics we would like to have in our German Shepherd. Here are the specifics so far . . .
> 
> 1. We will get only one dog for now.
> 
> ...


1. That's a good plan, seeing as how two puppies are five times the work.
2. Knowing when you "need protection" is only a small part genetic, and a large part socialization and training. 
3. Looking for a medium drive/energy dog isn't a bad idea.
4. While a color preference is okay, making color preference more important than health and temperament isn't. 
5. Typical GSD coat length, anyway. 
6. "Big boned" is often a euphemism for "over sized" and/or so heavily built as to lack refinement and athleticism.
7. Might be possible, but it doesn't hurt to be willing to travel further or be open to having a pup shipped. 
8. Any pup should be current on shots and have seen a vet for a checkup. A good breeder will do this as a matter of course. A BYB might cut corners here. 
9. Well, at only 8 weeks, no puppy has had much training, but should have been exposed to a variety of people, and have a good start on socialization.
10. Would probably be a sticking point for a lot of breeders. Outdoor dogs tend to get less attention than indoor dogs, unless the owners are dedicated to working with them. It's way too easy for the only interaction an outdoor dog has with its owner is when the owner goes out and dumps some food in a bowl.
11. Temperament is partly genetics and partly experience. Self control needs to be taught.
12. Yes, training will be required. Quite possibly lots and lots of training. My dogs are excited to see me whether I've been gone five minutes or five hours.
13. Early introduction to car trips are a must, then. Just don't be surprised if he takes a while to get used o it, though. My girl was over a year old before she quit throwing up in the car, despite liking to go places.
14. That sounds to be an average price for a pet quality pup from a good breeder. 

The best thing you can do is find a breeder that you click with who titles and health tests their dogs, and get on their waiting list. Avoid websites like purebred breeders, Puppyfind, NextDayPets, etc, as they are broker sites, basically the online equivalent of Petland.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Send me a pm


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dogs want to be where the family is...in or out. But where we are, so are they.
Dogs don't wear me out, work does. I have dogs for my relaxation and entertainment, stress relief.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> Selzer, I think you made my point. If someone is getting one outside dog, that is not good for the dog. We agree on that.
> 
> I always wondered if horses got bored outside in a stall all day with nothing to do. A lot of horses that are for occasional riding, get no attention at all, other than feeding and cleaning the stalls. People ride them on weekends. That seems terrible. I'm not a horse owner so I'm not familiar with handling.


most horses that are boarded get turned out in groups - they are herd animals and do well that way....they are also animals who are physiologically set up to eat for many hours a day and thus go out and graze and are content

But they do get attached to their owners and like to interact with them if the owner spends time with them...my mare knew my car and would get excited and come to the gate or stand by her stall door according to the barn owner..

Lee


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Yes, they get bored. They can go off their feed, they can develop bad habits, cribbing, kicking, biting, etc. They can easily injure themselves, and being injured, like putting a leg through a wall, they can rip tendons and stuff and need to be put down.
> 
> My sister in law, has had a series of great horses who turned out to have one problem or another. Most of them she sold due to behavioral reasons. The last one died of colic. Sad. Anyone could have a horse die of colic, but she has a name around here amongst horse people. You cannot put a horse in a field or in a stall and do nothing with them all winter and expect them to be perfect months later when it comes time to start riding again. And, horses do not do well on their own.





wolfstraum said:


> most horses that are boarded get turned out in groups - they are herd animals and do well that way....they are also animals who are physiologically set up to eat for many hours a day and thus go out and graze and are content
> 
> But they do get attached to their owners and like to interact with them if the owner spends time with them...my mare knew my car and would get excited and come to the gate or stand by her stall door according to the barn owner..
> 
> Lee


Thank you both. I didn't know that they are so social or that they eat so much.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

See that's how the last one of my sister's horses (she had one after another) died from colic. She ate too much grass, I guess. Kind of like bloat but different. They cannot barf. Well, it can kill them. I guess some horses can graze freely without trouble, and others will have a problem with it. Healthy as a horse is kind of an oxymoron.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are as many reasons horses colic as dogs bloat.....gas colic is super common in cribbers, too much grain can do it, a heavy parasite load can cause colic - a pretty disgusting mess when you open THOSE up! We took 10 pounds of tiny gravel out of a horses gut one day....he was fed in an arena that had a gravel base...sand colic common out west....

Also, horses who have not been on grass have to be acclimated to it slowly - besides colic, founder is a danger....


Lee


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> This is a huge deterrent for a good breeder......under these circumstances the most responsible and best breeders will not sell you a puppy.
> 
> 
> Lee


I've owned dogs all my life. Each of them lived outdoors. Of course, shelter was always provided (dog house) with electricity for a small heat- emitting bulb in very cold weather. Adequate shade in summer months (tree shade and covered car ports). Are you stating that, if I want my dog to live outside, regardless of the accommodations that I may provide him, a "responsible" breeder would not sell me a puppy? Do mixed-breeds have abilities to survive and thrive in weather that pure breeds cannot?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

riderjwc said:


> I've owned dogs all my life. Each of them lived outdoors. Of course, shelter was always provided (dog house) with electricity for a small heat- emitting bulb in very cold weather. Adequate shade in summer months (tree shade and covered car ports). Are you stating that, if I want my dog to live outside, regardless of the accommodations that I may provide him, a "responsible" breeder would not sell me a puppy? Do mixed-breeds have abilities to survive and thrive in weather that pure breeds cannot?



The character and personality of the GSD is such that they are very in tune with their people and they thrive with contact. There have been many posts with more details....personally, I would never sell a pup to someone who states up front that they will not have the dog in the house (kennel or crate while owner is working is not what I am talking about). I have refused, several times, to sell a pup to an experienced competitor who kennels their dogs - I don't care if the kennel is state of the art with central air and heat...it is not the physical plant, it is the deprivation of contact that is against my principals. And, it pains me that I know a few dogs I have bred are kennel kept -it is a situation that has caused (or is at least a factor in) a very changed relationship with an owner. Several runs of even a half hour each do not make up for the fact that the dog is standing in a run for a minimum of 20 hours on the average day. It makes me very very sad for the dog

Lee


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Also, there can and would be much interaction between us. I'm retired and spend a lot of time outdoors.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

Riderjwc - is there a particular reason you plan to keep the dog outside? Also, what other breeds have you had in the past?

As others have said, GSD's are not like some other breeds which can be quite independent. GSD's tend to become very attached to their people. They need and want a lot of interaction. Some can be "velcro dogs". They basically want to be around you 24/7. My guy is sleeping at my feet right now. I have to sit and watch him eat because if I leave he will sometimes walk away from his food bowl to follow me. If you are worried about leaving him in your home unsupervised for a couple of hours (and this is a legitimate worry with a GSD) I would recommend that you crate him. Same is true if you don't want a dog wandering around your bedroom at night. My current guy slept in his crate until he was 18 months old.

A dog left on his own outside 24/7 will be a bored, unhappy dog. I know you initially planned to deal with this by getting two dogs, so I can understand you being frustrated at first being told that you shouldn't leave a dog outside by himself because he will get lonely, but also being told not to get two puppies together so they can keep each other company. However, both pieces of advice are right on.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

riderjwc said:


> Also, there can and would be much interaction between us. I'm retired and spend a lot of time outdoors.


I know lots of dogs live their lives outdoors. I know you'll find a dog. There's just a difference between a dog excited to see you when you come outdoors to entertain him and how others will define companion and bonded with a dog that being next to you when you're doing nothing matters so much to them. Its just different, but its not the right choice for some people.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> The character and personality of the GSD is such that they are very in tune with their people and they thrive with contact. There have been many posts with more details....personally, I would never sell a pup to someone who states up front that they will not have the dog in the house (kennel or crate while owner is working is not what I am talking about). I have refused, several times, to sell a pup to an experienced competitor who kennels their dogs - I don't care if the kennel is state of the art with central air and heat...it is not the physical plant, it is the deprivation of contact that is against my principals. And, it pains me that I know a few dogs I have bred are kennel kept -it is a situation that has caused (or is at least a factor in) a very changed relationship with an owner. Several runs of even a half hour each do not make up for the fact that the dog is standing in a run for a minimum of 20 hours on the average day. It makes me very very sad for the dog
> 
> Lee


Well, thank goodness that you're not the only one selling GSDs! Since you shared your opinion, I'll share mine . . . I think your opinion that German Shepherds should live indoors is narrow-minded and ridiculous. Did dogs sleep in air-conditioned homes before 1902. No, they didn't. You know why? Air-conditioning wasn't invented yet. Back then, what was the difference between a dog sleeping in a people-house vs. a dog house? Probably not much, if any. I wonder if they felt deprived or abused back in those days. Poor souls, having to run wild outdoors, sleep under shade trees and then retreat to a private dog house or porch when it rains or snows. Give me a break. Dogs have lived outdoors for many more years (centuries) than they've lived indoors - and they've done just fine.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

but they are happier inside with the family. you would rather not the have dog to be happiest as possible for what? a little dog hair on the couch? i honestly don't care what you do i however would never ban a dog from my house. just curious why you are so against a dog in your house.

edit: i'm not trying to sound combative. just curious why people do things that i would never do so i don't sound as ignorant in the future.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

John C. said:


> A dog left on his own outside 24/7 will be a bored, unhappy dog. .


Who said anything about leaving him "on his own" 24/7? Some of you really like jumping to conclusions! We love our animals. Our pets ARE our family b/c we have no children. We have three cats living inside with us now (age 13, 11 and 2). Does your opinion about dogs living inside change now that you know we have three indoor cats? It shouldn't! If you believe a dog shouldn't live outside, then it shouldn't live outside, right? Therefore, if I believe having a dog inside may emotionally traumatize one or more of my cats, then I shouldn't have a dog at all based upon your opinion that a GSD should live indoors. I wonder how many GSDs that need homes and can't find one would love to be fed every day and have a private dog house, a private yard with shade trees and where he can run free every day vs. spending hours in a "crate" every day. Which is more humane?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

riderjwc said:


> Well, thank goodness that you're not the only one selling GSDs! Since you shared your opinion, I'll share mine . . . I think your opinion that German Shepherds should live indoors is narrow-minded and ridiculous. Did dogs sleep in air-conditioned homes before 1902. No, they didn't. You know why? Air-conditioning wasn't invented yet. Back then, what was the difference between a dog sleeping in a people-house vs. a dog house? Probably not much, if any. I wonder if they felt deprived or abused back in those days. Poor souls, having to run wild outdoors, sleep under shade trees and then retreat to a private dog house or porch when it rains or snows. Give me a break. Dogs have lived outdoors for many more years (centuries) than they've lived indoors - and they've done just fine.


I did not say they had to live in AC.....I said I would not sell a puppy to a person (an experienced IPO home in Texas) who was going to keep it in a kennel even though he had a kennel with heat and AC! 

Attacking someone who does not share your opinion or disagrees with your goals is not open minded either....

I have GSDs, I have had quite a few....the ones that I got as adults that were kennel dogs in Belgium and Germany who moved into the house adapted well. I have 3 runs so I can rotate dogs and exercise puppies. I have had several different imported as adult females, that if I chose to kennel them outside for a few hours, they would stand at the kennel, hang their heads low and just stand - reluctant to enter....as soon as the kennel door opened, they were back into the house and up the steps to the living room. My dogs go where I am - I take a shower, Csabre is lying on the bathroom rug - Lucca has her head inside the curtain....I am in the kitchen, they are there....I pick up truck keys, Csabre is doing pirouettes all the way down the hall to the door....and goes immediately to the back door of the truck - Lucca speeds to the truck and leaps in the back into her crate.....If I leave them, they are not happy - and in a kennel they generally just sit or lie by the door waiting to be released. They would rather be crated inside than left out in a kennel.

So no - I will not sell a puppy to someone who intends it to live outside full time and won't keep it as a house dog....my choice. I have no problem finding homes for pups. I am sure there are breeders who will - I am sure you will find one.

Lee


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

scarfish said:


> but they are happier inside with the family. you would rather not the have dog to be happiest as possible for what? a little dog hair on the couch? i honestly don't care what you do i however would never ban a dog from my house. just curious why you are so against a dog in your house.
> 
> edit: i'm not trying to sound combative. just curious why people do things that i would never do so i don't sound as ignorant in the future.


Another conclusion jumper. I have three cats. Do you think I care about getting hair on my furniture? LOL, my cats have _shredded_ my furniture! We have HIGH tolerance for things like that. Did you bother to ask why we may not want a dog in the house? Nope. You just jumped to an unfounded conclusion that we may not like hair. Some of you are really making fools out of yourselves!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Beyond the inside/outside thing...and you will be able to find someone to sell you two puppies who doesn't care....

The issue I see is your requirement on temperament and actions that are, in large part, due to training. Yet I see one mention of training to keep the dog from jumping on you. I see a recipe for disaster in this expectation that the puppy will come out of the womb with self control and an instinctual ability to protect you while knowing to play with your young family members. 

So when this dog instinctively protects you against drunk Uncle Joe who is acting and smelling funny, how are you going to call him off? That takes obedience training. It takes teaching the dog self control (yes that is TAUGHT!). My male doesn't even like my husband or son to close to me! And he's known them since he was 8 weeks old! 

I see the pedigree on these puppies from this broker site that have lines with genetic handler aggression and genetic aggression that makes them "real" and your desire for colors which are typically from working lines. What I don't see is the ability, or desire, to train and manage dogs that WILL have the ability to protect and WILL have the ability to make their own decision to bite when left without leadership.

This isn't a diss on you. This is a real concern that a person will get hurt and a dog will be euthanized for being in the wrong hands. I strongly urge you to go learn more about these dogs because they are intelligent and they will get themselves into trouble.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i had a cat that was the most terrified of dogs in the world. when we got a GSD puppy we gave the cat a spare bedroom with a baby gate for her own space with her cat box and food. cat got over it and used to the dog. they were never best friends but they learned to tolerate each other.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> I did not say they had to live in AC.....I said I would not sell a puppy to a person (an experienced IPO home in Texas) who was going to keep it in a kennel even though he had a kennel with heat and AC!
> 
> Attacking someone who does not share your opinion or disagrees with your goals is not open minded either....
> 
> ...


Ok, if someone recommends you as the breeder that I should contact, I'll just say that we'll let him live indoors so you can have peace of mind.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

scarfish said:


> i had a cat that was the most terrified of dogs in the world. when we got a GSD puppy we gave the cat a spare bedroom with a baby gate for her own space with her cat box and food. cat got over it and used to the dog. they were never best friends but they learned to tolerate each other.


.

That's great. I'm happy for you. I wish that could work for us but it won't. We have a small three bedroom house, three cats, three litter boxes and a mother-in-law living with us. Two of our cats don't get along well with each other so we keep them separated most of the time. We don't have space for an indoor dog too - whether it would get along with all three cats or not. 

If anyone else wants to make a comparison in an attempt to prove that GSDs can and should live in the house with us, please compare apples to apples. I've spilled just about every tidbit of info about our family living conditions that I can think of.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi Rider, I won't try to convince you to have an indoor dog. I imagine that outdoor dogs can have happy lives if they get to spend lots of quality time with their people. But cats can get along just fine with GSDs, especially if the puppy is raised with them from a young age. I've always had cats and dogs living in the house together and never had a problem. The cats have plenty of escape routes if they want to be get away...they can hop up on furniture, go upstairs, or use their cat door to go into the garage. My extremely shy ex-stray cat (that I thought would have a very difficult time adjusting to Asher) actually prefers the dog to the other cat we brought home. Whether living indoors or outdoors, GSDs need lots of training and exercise to be good companions, as I'm sure you know--especially if you want take them to public places and not have them embarrass you.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

riderjwc said:


> Another conclusion jumper. I have three cats. Do you think I care about getting hair on my furniture? LOL, my cats have _shredded_ my furniture! We have HIGH tolerance for things like that. Did you bother to ask why we may not want a dog in the house? Nope. You just jumped to an unfounded conclusion that we may not like hair. Some of you are really making fools out of yourselves!


Actually someone did ask you why you wanted to keep the dog outside - me. So it's just that you don't want to traumatize the cats? I can't really speak to this issue, since I don't have cats. Perhaps someone who has both can post their experience. Although it can be an issue, particularly if the dog has a ton of prey drive, I'm sure that someone can give you advice on how to insure dogs and cats can coexist.

Finally, although I've owned three GSD's as an adult (and grew up with one) I am the first one to admit that I still have a lot to learn. There are a lot of people on this forum that know a ton more about breeding, training and GSD's in general. One of those people is Wolfstraum - the person you just accused of making a fool of themselves. 

You came to this forum to ask for advice, since you have *zero* experience with GSD's. You get solid advice from people who have a sh*t ton more experience than you, but because you don't like that advice they are fools.:frown2: 

So go ahead, you clearly know more than we do. Get two high drive, working line, female GSD puppies. Leave them in your yard 24/7. Throw a ball for them 3-4 times a day until you get tired. And come back in two years to let us know how that is working out for you.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

riderjwc said:


> Ok, if someone recommends you as the breeder that I should contact, I'll just say that we'll let him live indoors so you can have peace of mind.



Please don't. What I breed won't suit you. It won't be happy and you won't be either as I would not be upon finding out the truth. Or if this was just a childish snotty comment ?????

Those dogs who have the genetic risk for handler aggressive mentioned?? That type of dog does not bond to people the same way....so many of that type of dog does not care to live with you - go ahead with that plan since you do not understand the point many of us are trying to make. That type of character may suit you better.

I have cats, my dogs live with the cats. My Bengal cat actually decided she was Csabre's, not mine....but I live alone so my dogs are fine in the house as I have no one else to please.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And you mention of other herding breeds....

I love herding breeds. Will never own anything else. But these are not dogs meant to be left to their own devices. Not Border Collies, not Collies, not Aussies, not Shelties, not Belgians, not Germans. Each breed was developed to work WITH people and be with their people and their flock. They are bred to have a job and will create one if not given one.

Perhaps you would be better suited with a guardian breed that is bred to work alone and is more independent.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> please compare apples to apples.


I'm not trying to talk you into anything, but it'll be better if you don't really compare this dog to the previous ones. I'd bet its going to be quite a bit different.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Beyond the inside/outside thing...and you will be able to find someone to sell you two puppies who doesn't care....
> 
> The issue I see is your requirement on temperament and actions that are, in large part, due to training. Yet I see one mention of training to keep the dog from jumping on you. I see a recipe for disaster in this expectation that the puppy will come out of the womb with self control and an instinctual ability to protect you while knowing to play with your young family members.
> 
> ...


Actually, it is a diss but that's ok. I have good self-esteem and I don't mind a little banter here and there. 

I never stated or even implied that I was not willing to spend time training my GSD. I actually look forward to doing so. Yes, I used the word "instinctively" in one of the characteristics we are hoping to have in our GSD and a reasonable person could deduct that I wanted that trait to be innate. Maybe that was the wrong word to use. I was trying to describe the general temperament and intelligence that we were looking for - ideally. I know there are no guarantees that a particular dog will have all the traits we want but I also know that some breeders can see certain characteristics early on in a pup. I'm just hoping that I can find a breeder who can understand what we want and provide us with a GSD puppy that most closely matches what we were able to describe. 

Regarding not wanting my GSD to jump on me, I think I also mentioned that I didn't want him to knock me down. A puppy can't knock me down. I was trying to describe that I wanted a dog that wasn't overly hyper, even as an adult - so hyper that training him not to jump on people would be excessively difficult. 

I feel that some of you are simply nitpicking everything I write. If that turns you on, go for it. As I stated earlier, I'm retired, I have plenty of time to call you out when your points are embellished, unfounded or just plain ridiculous.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

riderjwc said:


> .
> 
> That's great. I'm happy for you. I wish that could work for us but it won't. We have a small three bedroom house, three cats, three litter boxes and a mother-in-law living with us. Two of our cats don't get along well with each other so we keep them separated most of the time. * We don't have space for an indoor dog too* - whether it would get along with all three cats or not.
> 
> If anyone else wants to make a comparison in an attempt to prove that GSDs can and should live in the house with us, please compare apples to apples. I've spilled just about every tidbit of info about our family living conditions that I can think of.


Hi Rider. There are some (reasonable) alterations that can be made to a small home to accommodate a German Shepherd, or even two of them, without sacrificing cleanliness or comfort.


Modify floor surfaces so that you have all hard flooring (vinyl, tile, wood, or otherwise, no carpet). Put a few air filters in discreet corners in the main living areas, or in the bedroom if someone in your family is sensitive to hair and dander. They aren't terribly expensive, and they're available at hardware and big box stores. When you're home during the day, leave the door open so you and your dog can come and go. The dog will likely go where you go, so when you're outdoors, you'll have the companionship. At the end of the day, everyone can trot inside. 


Dutch doors (half-doors) where the top and bottom of the door can be closed and latched independently are EXCELLENT and PRICELESS when you have dogs, cats, and family members of different ages coming and going. Buying them pre-fab can be pricey, but you can easily modify a regular old wooden door with some hardware and an extra hinge. Not expensive, and it looks very nice and tidy. We did this for our office area, and it works wonders. The cats can jump over the door as they please, the dogs are trained NOT to jump over the door, and it allows open air circulation and sunlight in small spaces. Consider a dutch door for your kitchen, living room, and/or bedrooms for certain cats only. I can't recommend these highly enough.


As I said, I do understand small spaces. I'm a bit of a minimalist, we live in a 764 square foot, 100 year old lake cottage. Our home is not a messy disaster, and my relatives (some with severe allergies) are comfortable visiting. Cats & GSDs are more of a training issue than a square footage issue, in my opinion. It can be done.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> And you mention of other herding breeds....
> 
> I love herding breeds. Will never own anything else. But these are not dogs meant to be left to their own devices. Not Border Collies, not Collies, not Aussies, not Shelties, not Belgians, not Germans. Each breed was developed to work WITH people and be with their people and their flock. They are bred to have a job and will create one if not given one.
> 
> Perhaps you would be better suited with a guardian breed that is bred to work alone and is more independent.


Maybe so. Thanks for the suggestion. That makes sense. Based on what I have described, which such guardian breeds would you recommend?


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## Jaursland (Oct 24, 2012)

No one is nitpicking you. You need to understand that people on this forum are dedicated to the breed and so many of them end up in shelters because people cannot handle them or have absolutely ruined the dogs because of inexperience. Why not look at other breeds that are more suitable for you? What's your reason for wanting only a GSD? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> Hi Rider. There are some (reasonable) alterations that can be made to a small home to accommodate a German Shepherd, or even two of them, without sacrificing cleanliness or comfort.
> 
> 
> Modify floor surfaces so that you have all hard flooring (vinyl, tile, wood, or otherwise, no carpet). Put a few air filters in discreet corners in the main living areas, or in the bedroom if someone in your family is sensitive to hair and dander. They aren't terribly expensive, and they're available at hardware and big box stores. When you're home during the day, leave the door open so you and your dog can come and go. The dog will likely go where you go, so when you're outdoors, you'll have the companionship. At the end of the day, everyone can trot inside.
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions but it's not the messiness or physical comfort that's the problem. We have two older cats, one of whom is very stressed by a younger cat that we adopted a couple of years ago - even two years later we must keep them separated for most of the day. Bringing in another animal, especially a dog, likely would stress her even more. We don't want the last few months of her life to be so stressed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

riderjwc said:


> Thanks for the suggestions but it's not the messiness or physical comfort that's the problem. We have two older cats, one of whom is very stressed by a younger cat that we adopted a couple of years ago - even two years later we must keep them separated for most of the day. Bringing in another animal, especially a dog, likely would stress her even more. We don't want the last few months of her life to be so stressed.



So why don't you wait until the cat is gone and you can better accommodate another animal?


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jaursland said:


> No one is nitpicking you. You need to understand that people on this forum are dedicated to the breed and so many of them end up in shelters because people cannot handle them or have absolutely ruined the dogs because of inexperience. Why not look at other breeds that are more suitable for you? What's your reason for wanting only a GSD?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps _you_ aren't nitpicking but . . . yes, maybe another breed would be more suitable for us. We want a larger, intelligent dog. I've always had great respect for the intelligence of the GSD. Also, both my wife and I, think the GSD is a beautiful animal. My wife did see a dog on Youtube that she liked that looked similar to the GSD but taller. I can't remember the breed. I think the breed name was two words and the last was "Malinois"? Do you know the peculiarities of that breed? Is it similar to the GSD?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

**** DO NOT GET A BELGIAN MALINIOS! That's a GSD on crack. Mal's are smaller than GSD's. Or should be anyways.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm getting the feeling that the OP is trying to push buttons to get a rise out of people. 

These posts are getting quite confrontational on both sides, please tone it down, watch the language.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't look at the final results with any of these dogs. Its not rocket science, but the training involved to have a dog behave like you'll see on videos is almost always missing from the videos. I'd still suggest getting out and meeting dogs,people,breeders, all face to face. It would really be helpful to see the dogs involved in something too. When they're showing something other then hanging out and playing at home, it can give you a different perspective of what their temperament, drive, all that stuff is really like.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

riderjwc said:


> Who said anything about leaving him "on his own" 24/7? Some of you really like jumping to conclusions! We love our animals. Our pets ARE our family b/c we have no children. We have three cats living inside with us now (age 13, 11 and 2). Does your opinion about dogs living inside change now that you know we have three indoor cats? It shouldn't! If you believe a dog shouldn't live outside, then it shouldn't live outside, right? Therefore, if I believe having a dog inside may emotionally traumatize one or more of my cats, then I shouldn't have a dog at all based upon your opinion that a GSD should live indoors. I wonder how many GSDs that need homes and can't find one would love to be fed every day and have a private dog house, a private yard with shade trees and where he can run free every day vs. spending hours in a "crate" every day. Which is more humane?


Starting with a pup most cats will adjust fine to having a dog in the home. We currently have 4 gsds and one inside cat. Use to have 2 cats, but one has since passed, neither was traumatized by our gsds. There is adjustment period,but proper training and supervision will head off any potential problems. If this was your main reservation to having an inside dog, the work is definitely worth the reward in terms of relationship. 

Something else to consider with inside cats/outside only dog, if they're never trained to coexist, any potential slip ups as in dog gets inside/cat ventures out, or maybe even a chance doorway encounter, there could serious consequences.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> So why don't you wait until the cat is gone and you can better accommodate another animal?


That's a reasonable suggestion but, the bottom line is, my wife wants a dog yesterday. Ever since we've been married, I've told her that the affection that dogs provide compared to cats is vastly different. She's never had a dog and has wanted one for years. She's about to lose her mom and I'm trying to do what I can to help offset (at least a little) the void she is about to experience. 

And, for the nitpickers out there, 1) the upcoming passing of her mom is not the only reason we want a dog; and 2) we are not expecting to get affection from our dog with giving him any. Hopefully, that will eliminate a couple of attacks, lol!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I have two cats. My cats actually prefer my dog to me. Wherever my dog is, there is a cat (or two) snuggling up to him!

Me, I'm just the food dispenser.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Don't look at the final results with any of these dogs. Its not rocket science, but the training involved to have a dog behave like you'll see on videos is almost always missing from the videos. I'd still suggest getting out and meeting dogs,people,breeders, all face to face. It would really be helpful to see the dogs involved in something too. When they're showing something other then hanging out and playing at home, it can give you a different perspective of what their temperament, drive, all that stuff is really like.


I understand and agree. We are planning to do exactly that.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Castlemaid said:


> I have two cats. My cats actually prefer my dog to me. Wherever my dog is, there is a cat (or two) snuggling up to him!
> 
> Me, I'm just the food dispenser.


LOL, that's exactly what I tell my wife all the time. While we love our cats, I feel that, most of the time, they're really just using us. They bribe us into doing things they want by wrapping around our feet, purring and just being furry. We fall for it every time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

riderjwc said:


> That's a reasonable suggestion but, the bottom line is, my wife wants a dog yesterday. Ever since we've been married, I've told her that the affection that dogs provide compared to cats is vastly different. She's never had a dog and has wanted one for years. She's about to lose her mom and I'm trying to do what I can to help offset (at least a little) the void she is about to experience.
> 
> And, for the nitpickers out there, 1) the upcoming passing of her mom is not the only reason we want a dog; and 2) we are not expecting to get affection from our dog with giving him any. Hopefully, that will eliminate a couple of attacks, lol!


So I do get that but you apparently have a LOT going on and you need to really think how all this will affect this new living being that you are bringing into the house.

Being a caregiver is exhausting. Losing a parent is devastating. Puppies take up an enormous amount of time. It would be a rare thing for this sequence of event to turn out well for anyone, especially the puppy that will not understand all the turmoil.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Do you want a good dog or do you want to argue with folks about things that won't be pertinent to your situation....if the former send me a pm, if the latter then continue on.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

riderjwc said:


> Thanks for the suggestions but it's not the messiness or physical comfort that's the problem. We have two older cats, one of whom is very stressed by a younger cat that we adopted a couple of years ago - even two years later we must keep them separated for most of the day. Bringing in another animal, especially a dog, likely would stress her even more. We don't want the last few months of her life to be so stressed.





Jax08 said:


> So why don't you wait until the cat is gone and you can better accommodate another animal?


Rider, that puts a different perspective on things. I agree wih Jax. Give your senior a nice quiet home for as long as she's with you. Take the time to meet some dogs in person and prepare your home. And enjoy your cat.

A puppy (of most herding breeds) is a small tornado. It will change the dynamic of your household regardless of the details. You should arrange to watch and meet some malinois if you are considering them....


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Castlemaid said:


> I'm getting the feeling that the OP is trying to push buttons to get a rise out of people.
> 
> These posts are getting quite confrontational on both sides, please tone it down, watch the language.


Not true. Not true. If you read the posts, you'll see that my observations are dead on.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> So I do get that but you apparently have a LOT going on and you need to really think how all this will affect this new living being that you are bringing into the house.
> 
> Being a caregiver is exhausting. Losing a parent is devastating. Puppies take up an enormous amount of time. It would be a rare thing for this sequence of event to turn out well for anyone, especially the puppy that will not understand all the turmoil.


If my wife would be the only person available to take care of the dog and if her mom's eminent passing were the only reason for getting him in the first place, I'd totally agree that now would not be the best time to get one. She works. I'm retired. I'm the one who will be spending most of the time with the puppy. We wouldn't neglect a pet b/c, in our household, pets are family members.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> Rider, that puts a different perspective on things. I agree wih Jax. Give your senior a nice quiet home for as long as she's with you. Take the time to meet some dogs in person and prepare your home. And enjoy your cat.
> 
> A puppy (of most herding breeds) is a small tornado. It will change the dynamic of your household regardless of the details. You should arrange to watch and meet some malinois if you are considering them....


Nope, won't be considering them now. Jax08's description is exactly what I saw in the video. I just didn't know if all Belgian Malinois were that hyper. Thanks for the info.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> So I do get that but you apparently have a LOT going on and you need to really think how all this will affect this new living being that you are bringing into the house.
> 
> Puppies take up an enormous amount of time. It would be a rare thing for this sequence of event to turn out well for anyone, especially the puppy that will not understand all the turmoil.


Since Castlemaid believes I'm just trying to "push buttons", I'll craft this response by first stating that I mean no disrespect. However, when you state, " . . .you need to really think how all this will affect this new living being that you are bringing into the house." Your "tone" reflects a parent/child relationship between us. Your statement is a "command" by any definition you wish to source. Instead, maybe you'd like to ASK if we've considered the effects of bringing a puppy into the family when a loved one . . . If you had asked, you would discover that we've thought about it carefully. While I agree that a puppy will be demanding in some ways, it will also bring the same smiles to my mother-in-law as it does to most people who love animals. She has some breathing issues associated with a chronic heart problem. However, she is in her sound mind and can enjoy the same everyday sedentary pleasures that most of us enjoy. Since she will not be responsible for caring for the dog, it will not be a burden to her. She is actually excited about us getting a puppy. She even asked if she could choose its name. If we need to be away for whatever reason, we have someone who can take care of the puppy's needs. My wife and I do have firsthand knowledge of death. My dad died after a 6 year bout with cancer. My brother had a child shortly after he was diagnosed. That baby girl was full of life, cared nothing about cancer and, for six years, she helped keep my dad's mind off his problems, to a large degree. A puppy can have similar effect. Didn't say "same" but similar. 

Also, your statement about "Being a caregiver is exhausting. Losing a parent is devastating." Do you think you're the only one who has ever lost a loved one? Again, a parent/child tone. In the future, maybe you would like to think about this when making your suggestions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL gotcha

PM Cliff. He has a puppy for you.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I'd be a little concerned with a landsharking puppy and an elderly person. If you go ahead with a GSD puppy, you need to educate yourself on how to deal with the biting.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> LOL gotcha
> 
> PM Cliff. He has a puppy for you.


You left off "Bucko"


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

riderjwc said:


> Since Castlemaid believes I'm just trying to "push buttons", I'll craft this response by first stating that I mean no disrespect. However, when you state, " . . .you need to really think how all this will affect this new living being that you are bringing into the house." Your "tone" reflects a parent/child relationship between us. Your statement is a "command" by any definition you wish to source. Instead, maybe you'd like to ASK if we've considered the effects of bringing a puppy into the family when a loved one . . . If you had asked, you would discover that we've thought about it carefully. While I agree that a puppy will be demanding in some ways, it will also bring the same smiles to my mother-in-law as it does to most people who love animals. She has some breathing issues associated with a chronic heart problem. However, she is in her sound mind and can enjoy the same everyday sedentary pleasures that most of us enjoy. Since she will not be responsible for caring for the dog, it will not be a burden to her. She is actually excited about us getting a puppy. She even asked if she could choose its name. If we need to be away for whatever reason, we have someone who can take care of the puppy's needs. My wife and I do have firsthand knowledge of death. My dad died after a 6 year bout with cancer. My brother had a child shortly after he was diagnosed. That baby girl was full of life, cared nothing about cancer and, for six years, she helped keep my dad's mind off his problems, to a large degree. A puppy can have similar effect. Didn't say "same" but similar.
> 
> Also, your statement about "Being a caregiver is exhausting. Losing a parent is devastating." Do you think you're the only one who has ever lost a loved one? Again, a parent/child tone. In the future, maybe you would like to think about this when making your suggestions.


Its just a general unwritten rule kinda thing, taking on a puppy when you have a lot going on can make it pretty tough to actually enjoy the puppy. It can become nothing but work, and maybe not worth it.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

riderjwc said:


> .
> 
> That's great. I'm happy for you. I wish that could work for us but it won't. We have a small three bedroom house, three cats, three litter boxes and a mother-in-law living with us. Two of our cats don't get along well with each other so we keep them separated most of the time. We don't have space for an indoor dog too - whether it would get along with all three cats or not.
> 
> If anyone else wants to make a comparison in an attempt to prove that GSDs can and should live in the house with us, please compare apples to apples. I've spilled just about every tidbit of info about our family living conditions that I can think of.


Two bedroom, one bath house on a 1/10 acre lot, with six cats (seven litter boxes), three dogs, a bird, two adult humans and two (autistic) teenaged humans. Three of the cats go outside during the day but are in at night, and our oldest female cat (aged 15) doesn't leave the kitchen because the youngest female (aged 3) is an obnoxious snot. All three dogs, a 55 pound GSD, a 48 pound mutt, and a 37 pound APBT, all live indoors. 

Is that apple-y enough?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I have to weigh in on the malinois comments.

Belgian malinois are not GSD on crack. That is a way overused description and inaccurate. It makes it sound like a Belgian is just like a GSD but add in some addictive drug and a good deal of crazy. The malinois lines I seek and I occasionally breed are not over the top twitchy. A Belgian can not be boiled down into a drug addict seeking a rush- although they do love their work and are prone to a bit of obsession.

They are focused, intelligent dogs that require training, extensive socialization, and a savvy, involved owner. But they are not crack addicts. 

The malinois in many videos on YouTube are mostly kennel dogs. That means they are in a crate or an outdoor kennel unless they are being worked. So these high energy, intelligent dogs that seek an outlet are kept confined the vast majority of their lives. 

Thus, in those videos, or even at the local IPO club, the malinois you see are often dogs bursting at the seams to do SOMETHING! because they've been sitting in a kennel for a few days. And thus, you have this really twitchy, crazy-in-drive dog. The "malinois pant" where the eyes glaze over, yes, I've seen it. I can get it in my own dogs, if I train a certain way. I don't like it for the most part because when that pant comes out the brain seems to go bye-bye, but judges seem to give points for that kind of focus. 

Some of it is genetics, much of it is because the handlers seek that very high focused energy by in part confining the dog and in other part restricting the dog's energy to a single thing, like IPO or whatever work they are doing. When you put all the malinois energy and drive into one thing, you get a dog that looks like the ones in the videos. 

I think the biggest difficulties people have with malinois is understanding their high energy, prey drive, "bite" drive, and often inherent reactivity to almost anything that moves (you see this in puppies), and getting a handle on a temperament which may include a high degree of human aggression-suspicion/fight balanced with a high degree of sensitivity and affection for "their" people. Self control can be a challenge. 

A good dog handler can figure out and handle a malinois as long as they don't apply a one-size-fits-all to the breed, or treat it just like a GSD. Most malinois I know have an on-off switch which is not installed at birth by any means, but incredible once you figure it out. My "on" malinois would protect me with her life, but she's happy to play a gentle game of fetch with a two year old in "off" mode, where I generally like the switch to remain unless I flip it. One of the things people like about the breed is how they can switch from work mode to social mode so quickly. But that takes a lot of training and the right genetics. 

A Belgian is a separate breed from GSD. 

My Belgians are not simply working for a ball or toy. They are very handler focused. They love their people.

I've gone on enough, but it does the breed and people interested in them a dis-service to give the blanket statement "GSD on crack". 

Rider- I do not think most Belgians would suit your situation, but if you were interested in the breed, there are quite a few good, "first-time malinois" friendly dogs in rescue groups.

I'd also highly recommend you meet several different "types" of malinois. There are lines breed mostly for sport, and others mostly for working applications like Law Enforcement. Different breeders have different goals, but most malinois need a job of some kind, and love to bite and you need to figure out how to channel that drive properly. 

Meet some puppies. As fun as it is to have a pup hanging off your pant leg at 6 weeks old, it starts to hurt at about 7 to 8 weeks and you need to know what you are doing. 

Rider- I'd recommend checking out some GSDs for adoption in the area, too. Go meet a few. There are some real gems up for adoption. That is how I got my GSD. Great dog, great temperament. In my experience, there tend to be quite a few really nice GSDs in shelters in the southern states. Check them out and see if you can't find a nice fit.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Fun video of a pack of two malinois and a GSD. 






I don't see dogs on crack in this video, I see nicely focused dogs with a good handler bond. 

Also, you can note whatever differences you see in how the GSD responds vs. the malinois. Mostly, the malinois have a bit more quickness and intensity, at least in this video.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

riderjwc said:


> We wouldn't neglect a pet b/c, in our household, pets are family members.


OP, you are going to do what you want. Some here think a GSD should be kept inside while others think that outside is just fine.

One thing I do have to question is this comment. How can you keep a GSD outside, yet consider it a family member? How can your dog be a family member when it is on the outside looking in? Considering a dog a family member and the dog actually being a family member can be two very different things.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

LeoRose said:


> Two bedroom, one bath house on a 1/10 acre lot, with six cats (seven litter boxes), three dogs, a bird, two adult humans and two (autistic) teenaged humans. Three of the cats go outside during the day but are in at night, and our oldest female cat (aged 15) doesn't leave the kitchen because the youngest female (aged 3) is an obnoxious snot. All three dogs, a 55 pound GSD, a 48 pound mutt, and a 37 pound APBT, all live indoors.
> 
> Is that apple-y enough?


Actually, no. You're just in the other extreme. That can't be healthy but to each his own.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

riderjwc said:


> Well, thank goodness that you're not the only one selling GSDs! Since you shared your opinion, I'll share mine . . . I think your opinion that German Shepherds should live indoors is narrow-minded and ridiculous. Did dogs sleep in air-conditioned homes before 1902. No, they didn't. You know why? Air-conditioning wasn't invented yet. Back then, what was the difference between a dog sleeping in a people-house vs. a dog house? Probably not much, if any. I wonder if they felt deprived or abused back in those days. Poor souls, having to run wild outdoors, sleep under shade trees and then retreat to a private dog house or porch when it rains or snows. Give me a break. Dogs have lived outdoors for many more years (centuries) than they've lived indoors - and they've done just fine.


In those times, the humans were outside with the dogs. From sunrise (or earlier) to sunset. Dogs were with their humans, often working closely with them, for 12+ hours a day. 
Will you be outside for most of the day or do you work outside the home? Do you spend your time after work outside and doing activities with the dog? 

THAT is why most dogs today live inside. Because humans spend their time inside And this breed is one that has been bred since the beginning to have close working relationships with their owners.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

we just lost our cat. before that, we had a GSD, a parakeet, 2 parents and 2 children, a guiinea pig, and a lot of fish as well as the cat in a 2 bedroom house.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Guess some people are just never satisfied. You wanted an apples to apples comparison, and I gave you one. You claimed that you "didn't have room" for an indoor dog, yet I manage to have three, because I'm willing to make it work.

Not to say that if we win the lotto we're not going to run out and buy a great big house with at least three bathrooms....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP, you are going to do what you want. Some here think a GSD should be kept inside while others think that outside is just fine.
> 
> One thing I do have to question is this comment. How can you keep a GSD outside, yet consider it a family member? How can your dog be a family member when it is on the outside looking in? Considering a dog a family member and the dog actually being a family member can be two very different things.


My brother was the eldest, he moved out half a dozen times from 16 on up, he was still family. Lots of people have outside cats and dogs and don't forget them when they make decisions that effect the whole family. 

When done properly, I think people can actually produce a healthier and more content, better trained dog if it lives outside. Too often indoor dogs are just looked at like part of the woodwork and never considered as a being worthy of time or trouble. People can be just as negligent of an indoor dog as they are with an outdoor dog. The difference is, an outdoor dog gets fresh air and doesn't have to breathe in 7 litter boxes worth of cat urine and all the cleaning products and deodorizers that would make that situation livable. 

People get a pup at 8 weeks, and then don't bother to do anything with the darn thing until it is 10-14 months old and the mail man is refusing to deliver to the house, or the old lady on her bicycle is going to sue because it ran out and knocked her over. 

Not every person with an indoor dog is a great owner. Look at how many people on here have indoor dogs, and are having one problem after another with them, most of them due to a failure in leadership or training. 

Can dogs thrive outside? Certainly. They are animals and animals are built to manage the elements of an outdoor environment. By fencing them in, and domesticating them, they lose some of their ability and resourcefulness. But they can still enjoy a relationship with the homeowners even if their part of the home includes only the back yard. 

How many of us keep the dogs out of the bedroom, or basement, or upstairs, or kitchen? Are those dogs deprived? How can they be "family" if they are not allowed on the bed, or couch, or kitchen counters and fridge? 

They are family members, but we have special rules and compensations for them because they are animals. They potty outside, we don't. We wear a bathing suit so we don't scare the neighbors when we swim, they don't. We spend 6-10 hours a day away from home, going to school or working, they do not. 

How about the crate thing. Do you lock family in a crate and then go to work for 10 hours? If you do that to your skin-kid, you will be in deep doo doo with CPS. A dog is not a child. It does not require the run of your house, not does it require inside accommodations. It does not mean you do not love your dog. Or that folks that keep them inside all the time love them more.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> My brother was the eldest, he moved out half a dozen times from 16 on up, he was still family. Lots of people have outside cats and dogs and don't forget them when they make decisions that effect the whole family.
> 
> When done properly, I think people can actually produce a healthier and more content, better trained dog if it lives outside. Too often indoor dogs are just looked at like part of the woodwork and never considered as a being worthy of time or trouble. People can be just as negligent of an indoor dog as they are with an outdoor dog. The difference is, an outdoor dog gets fresh air and doesn't have to breathe in 7 litter boxes worth of cat urine and all the cleaning products and deodorizers that would make that situation livable.
> 
> ...


I don't really see how much of this applies to my comment. 

A dog can be content just to lay in the same room as its owners while they watch tv. 

Regarding being healthier, I have seen studies to the contrary where outside dogs and cats lead shorter lives based on living in the elements and not accidents, etc.

Like another poster commented, the difference today is we do live most of our lives indoors, and the dog can't be a part of that from the other side of the window. Does it mean somebody doesn't love their dog enough or less? I don't know. I am not going to sit in judgement on that one. 

My sister moved to NC many years ago, my brother lives a half hour away. Are we still family? Yes, we are. Do we "live" as family? No, I seldom see or interact with them. So I stand by my comment, calling them family and them being family are two separate things.


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

I read through your whole thread, so this is just my opinion on this whole thing, I think the one thing about your post that stood out to me was the part that I read that you said your dog will be an outdoor dog.... Which I highly disagree with.

Firstly, let's get rid of the old; "Dogs use to live outdoors a long time ago, so who's to say they shouldn't now!" Back then, like other's have said, people's daily lifestyles were incredibly different, we did not have the technology we have now and relied on our best pals (our dogs) for work, as we did most of our work outside, and spent most out days outside, therefore a bond stayed strong, and even then, I'm pretty sure people brought their furry pals back inside the house. Another thing I like to mention is, dog's are not wolves, and dogs in general have evolved from the 90s, the breed, or _all breeds_ look completely different then they use to.

German Shepherds are very loyal dogs, _very_.. loyal.. They want to be around you all day, no matter where you are, whether that is going to the bathroom, or leaving to go cook in the kitchen for only a minute. These dogs do not care about being in the outdoors, and would not enjoy them, even if they have a nice looking shelter, shaded trees, and or heating.. Instead they rather be by your side.

Looking at your posts, it seems like you want a protection dog, I know your wife wants a puppy, but to me it sounds like you guys are more so big lovers of your cats, rather than a dog, therefore you guys are more catering to your cats. Having a small house is no excuse to leave your dog outside, I too also live in a tiny home with a large household, and I owned two German Shepherds, turtles, fish, and much more animals, many people think dogs take a large amount of space but they don't, the most they'll take up is a small area to store food, and any toys, and a crate. You said you aren't having children, so what's the problem of keeping the puppy in the house, and even when he's an adult in the house?

I would also like to mention, your bond with your puppy will be impacted by leaving him outside. It will not be as strong, and I guaranteed you he will develop behavior issues, and anxiety issues since I recall you are saying you'll be playing with him and all of that. These dogs grow very attached to their owners, so you need to take that in account. Behavior issues are a negative especially if you have niece and or a nephew coming to visit. 

Leaving your dog as well outdoors increases your chances of your puppy and or adult dog to grow very ill, and live by far less. German Shepherds in general have many health issues through breeding, and a short lifespan, you are increasing it's short lifespan by allowing your dog to live outdoors. Dogs and puppies have higher chances of also picking up diseases and other things because you're keeping them outside. Look at me, I got another GSD puppy to add to my family a month ago, and he has worms! You know why he had worms, because, I just found out the breeder had been keeping her puppies outside, as she has more than 5 acres her dogs freely roam around in, running into tiny streams and rivers as puppies! I didn't even know this until weeks later, while I was making lots of contact with the dog. Do you want to deal with things like worms? Misquitoes are big transmitters of it. 

Another problem about leaving your dog outside is your dog is a big target to any of predators, whether that is snake, coyotes, etc.

There is a lot more to add to this, the vet will even tell you herself or himself that they recommend _NOT_ leaving the puppy outdoors, because there are by far more cons than pros. Also, lying to a breeder about your intentions with the future puppy is absolutely ridiculous, I had a couple of litters myself, if anyone lied to me, I would never trust these people again and never sell them a puppy again, any other breeders I know of, I would warn them as well. Never lie to your breeder. A good breeder wants the best puppy available for their buyer, one that fits with them as well, do not damage their trust.

Since you're so determined on having an outdoors puppy, I do not think this is the breed for you, or any dog in my opinion really.
I'm not trying to be rude either, none of these members are, we are giant lovers dedicated to the German Shepherd breed, we want what's best for them.

One last thing, I never recommend buying puppies you've seen online, find a breeder with a good reputation and keep visiting the puppies. A picture and a description is completely different than constantly visiting a puppy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Elf, for your second post on this site, I look forward to your third!


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## Elf (Jun 10, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> Elf, for your second post on this site, I look forward to your third!


Thank you  Always been a fan of these forums.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

selzer said:


> My brother was the eldest, he moved out half a dozen times from 16 on up, he was still family. Lots of people have outside cats and dogs and don't forget them when they make decisions that effect the whole family.
> 
> When done properly, I think people can actually produce a healthier and more content, better trained dog if it lives outside. Too often indoor dogs are just looked at like part of the woodwork and never considered as a being worthy of time or trouble. People can be just as negligent of an indoor dog as they are with an outdoor dog. The difference is, an outdoor dog gets fresh air and doesn't have to breathe in 7 litter boxes worth of cat urine and all the cleaning products and deodorizers that would make that situation livable.
> 
> ...


Nice post Selzer. I agree.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My 2 cents, while my dogs and cats do live inside my home, as I choose this, I don't care where anyone else's lives as long as they 1. provide food/shelter 2. spend ALOT of QUALITY time with them 3. train them vs letting them 'train' themselves which involves taking classes if possible..4. Include them in activities outside the home area (like just going for a walk or a hike!) but most importantly, not expecting the dog to be 'perfect' (even the case with dogs living inside the home). 

Dogs are not perfect beings, you get out of them what you put into them..

Puppies can be a pain in the neck and get into everything, they don't come pre trained, they are work..Since your retired , well that can be a benefit..I honestly don't know how anyone with a kennel full of dogs can spend quality time with all of them if they work outside the home a full schedule, but that's not my problem..

While I personally choose to include my animals in everything I do, as long as someone takes good care of their animals, and makes them decent members of society, it's not my business..And just to add I rented a house that was 30 x 30, one bedroom, had 2 LARGE gsd's, 3 cats, and 2 birds inside, and it was not 'unhealthy' nor a burden..


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## Laura66 (May 1, 2016)

Since you are determined to leave your dog outside, you did ask earlier about other breeds that were options for you. There is a Husky, malamutes and great pyrenees. I don't know how they do in the heat or how protective they are however, a dog left outside can't really protect you anyways. I do hope the choices you make are in the best interest of the dog and I feel for you when it comes to the loss you will be going through. Good luck with your decision and post pictures when you get your puppy.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Its just a general unwritten rule kinda thing, taking on a puppy when you have a lot going on can make it pretty tough to actually enjoy the puppy. It can become nothing but work, and maybe not worth it.


I understand what you're saying and it makes sense but wouldn't you agree that dogs can be a pleasant distraction from all the intense emotions when you _do_ get a break? I know it would for me.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Laura66 said:


> Since you are determined to leave your dog outside, you did ask earlier about other breeds that were options for you. There is a Husky, malamutes and great pyrenees. I don't know how they do in the heat or how protective they are however, a dog left outside can't really protect you anyways. I do hope the choices you make are in the best interest of the dog and I feel for you when it comes to the loss you will be going through. Good luck with your decision and post pictures when you get your puppy.


Thank you. From the age of 7 through 19, I had a Collie. He lived outdoors. Of course we built a dog house for him and made special accommodations for him in the colder months. He never suffered any physical ailments and we played together all the time. Every time I went outside, he would follow me all over the neighborhood, everywhere I went. If I went into a friend's house, he waited for me outside. When I came out, he followed me back home. One day, the neighborhood bully (dog) came toward me but did not seem particularly aggressive. Anyway, Charlie (my dog) attacked him. Both dogs hurt each other because the fight was very intense for about 20 seconds (may not seem long but when biting and rolling all over each other for that long, it seems like forever). Anyway, because of this, I must totally disagree with you when you say, " . . . a dog left outside can't really protect you anyways." Actually, in some ways he can protect even better. Charlie often slept on our side porch (attached to the house) on a mat that we provided for him. If anything/anybody approached, he barked which alerted us that someone was in close proximity to the house. When we went outside to see what he was barking at, he continued to stand between us and the person who had stepped onto our driveway. Only when we called Charlie away did he relax but he always kept watch. He was a great protector - and he lived outdoors, exclusively.

Thanks for the recommendations on the breeds. I'll take a look at them.


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## riderjwc (Jun 8, 2016)

Elf said:


> I read through your whole thread, so this is just my opinion on this whole thing, I think the one thing about your post that stood out to me was the part that I read that you said your dog will be an outdoor dog.... Which I highly disagree with.
> 
> Firstly, let's get rid of the old; "Dogs use to live outdoors a long time ago, so who's to say they shouldn't now!" Back then, like other's have said, people's daily lifestyles were incredibly different, we did not have the technology we have now and relied on our best pals (our dogs) for work, as we did most of our work outside, and spent most out days outside, therefore a bond stayed strong, and even then, I'm pretty sure people brought their furry pals back inside the house. Another thing I like to mention is, dog's are not wolves, and dogs in general have evolved from the 90s, the breed, or _all breeds_ look completely different then they use to.
> 
> ...


GSDs don't have an exclusive on loyalty. Most dogs are loyal, very loyal to anyone who feeds/shelters/loves them. In many ways, they're very simple. Certainly, there are differences b/t the breeds, even in loyalty but the difference is not as great as you imply. Also, I don't really care whether you you believe I should be a dog owner. I'll be getting one anyway :grin2:

P.S. I once had a dog that would chase snakes, bite them and then shake her head left and right violently until the snake broke into two pieces. Her name was Missy and she was a heinz 57 - and a **** good one too.


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## Laura66 (May 1, 2016)

riderjwc said:


> Thank you. From the age of 7 through 19, I had a Collie. He lived outdoors. Of course we built a dog house for him and made special accommodations for him in the colder months. He never suffered any physical ailments and we played together all the time. Every time I went outside, he would follow me all over the neighborhood, everywhere I went. If I went into a friend's house, he waited for me outside. When I came out, he followed me back home. One day, the neighborhood bully (dog) came toward me but did not seem particularly aggressive. Anyway, Charlie (my dog) attacked him. Both dogs hurt each other because the fight was very intense for about 20 seconds (may not seem long but when biting and rolling all over each other for that long, it seems like forever). Anyway, because of this, I must totally disagree with you when you say, " . . . a dog left outside can't really protect you anyways." Actually, in some ways he can protect even better. Charlie often slept on our side porch (attached to the house) on a mat that we provided for him. If anything/anybody approached, he barked which alerted us that someone was in close proximity to the house. When we went outside to see what he was barking at, he continued to stand between us and the person who had stepped onto our driveway. Only when we called Charlie away did he relax but he always kept watch. He was a great protector - and he lived outdoors, exclusively.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendations on the breeds. I'll take a look at them.


Let me explain why I do not believe they can protect you when outside.
I took care of a patient that was a victim of a home invasion. Both parents and 3 kids were the victims. I had one of them, and one of those family members was murdered during the home invasion. They had a dog that was out in the back yard. I do not recall the breed however, it was either a german shepherd or rottweiler (it was either one because I recall I had both in the past). Anyways that dog could not be a deterrent or protect them because the dog was outside. They have to live with seeing their family member murdered. I have seen many ugly situations in my profession. I had my doberman outside in the back yard going potty and the door bell rang I answered it without thinking and it was during the day. I live in a nice neighborhood and the person at the door did not fit in and he did not live in my neighborhood. You can see the backdoor from my front door and my doberman was barking fiercely and jumping on the door. I was a little scared and I knew I could not reach the back door in time if anything would happen. He asked about looking for a person I said no and shut and locked the door. It could have gone bad but it didn't. If you are away one day and your wife and mother in law is at home your dog is in the back yard and someone bad comes over they can't be protected and your dog can't be a deterrent for bad people. Experience has taught me well, so just think about what could happen because it does happen and not always to someone else.
One last thing a dog does help with loss, my doberman was so helpful when my 15 yr old chinese crested became sick and died. She helped me so much and yours will too however, when your in the house having that dog to hug that is next to you can be very therapeutic.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

riderjwc said:


> Thank you. From the age of 7 through 19, I had a Collie. He lived outdoors. Of course we built a dog house for him and made special accommodations for him in the colder months. He never suffered any physical ailments and we played together all the time. Every time I went outside, he would follow me all over the neighborhood, everywhere I went. If I went into a friend's house, he waited for me outside. When I came out, he followed me back home. One day, the neighborhood bully (dog) came toward me but did not seem particularly aggressive. Anyway, Charlie (my dog) attacked him. Both dogs hurt each other because the fight was very intense for about 20 seconds (may not seem long but when biting and rolling all over each other for that long, it seems like forever). Anyway, because of this, I must totally disagree with you when you say, " . . . a dog left outside can't really protect you anyways." Actually, in some ways he can protect even better. Charlie often slept on our side porch (attached to the house) on a mat that we provided for him. If anything/anybody approached, he barked which alerted us that someone was in close proximity to the house. When we went outside to see what he was barking at, he continued to stand between us and the person who had stepped onto our driveway. Only when we called Charlie away did he relax but he always kept watch. He was a great protector - and he lived outdoors, exclusively.
> 
> Thanks for the recommendations on the breeds. I'll take a look at them.


That was then....

The differences today are; Unless you live in a sparsely populated area, if you leave a dog out in the cold all night - you can expect visits from animal control and you will certainly earn the disdain of your friends & neighbors who believe this is cruelty in cold weather. If your dog is out all night and barks, your neighbors will complain to authorities. If your dog is loose & bites a person on your property, you may face a large law suit and possibly the death of your dog. 

The rules have changed as have the ways people keep and care for their dogs. The point is, we are aware that our dog could probably survive being outside in the cold all night but - we know more about proper health care, diet and what's best for the dog than we used to.

People don't toss their unwanted kittens in a bag with rocks into the nearest pond anymore either or take their dog out back and put a bullet in it's head when they don't want it anymore. That used to be perfectly acceptable also. Even Lassie and Timmy's parents probably would have gotten into some scrapes with animal control and the law in today's environment.


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## Laura66 (May 1, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> That was then....
> 
> The differences today are; Unless you live in a sparsely populated area, if you leave a dog out in the cold all night - you can expect visits from animal control and you will certainly earn the disdain of your friends & neighbors who believe this is cruelty in cold weather. If your dog is out all night and barks, your neighbors will complain to authorities. If your dog is loose & bites a person on your property, you may face a large law suit and possibly the death of your dog.
> 
> ...


Actually you are talking about responsible owners. People do still keep their dogs outside, tie them up to a tree or dog house, or even through a bunch of kittens in the garbage. Animal abuse still goes on today, however as responsible pet owners we do not do that. Their are people who really believe that their is nothing wrong with leaving a dog outside, they just don't look at the situation as we do. Some believe small dogs in the house is fine but not large dogs. Culture plays a part in this as well. I have family members in another state that have all dogs outside that are used for hunting or just breeding for more hunting dogs. While you have the opposite who treat their dogs like humans (my parents with their dog). Animal cruelty or complete devotion to our pets will never go away. On this forum we can only hope to change perspectives.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's what I was trying to do. That's why I did not point out that some people still do that today. I saw that when I was living in South Texas. It's not something I point to when I'm trying to encourage someone not to take that path.....


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> take their dog out back and put a bullet in it's head when they don't want it anymore. That used to be perfectly acceptable also. .


actually, some Animal Shelters still euthanized dogs that way within the last 10 years. It's still legal in most areas as long as you kill the dog with the first shot.


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