# Resistance to recall



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

My pup max is 7 months old. It seems like we conquer one thing and on to the next challenge. I do need much help with this one. We live at a dead end street and surrounded by all woods. Across the woods from us live feral cats which sometime come in our yard. There a been a few times where he has bolted out the front door only when he sees a feral cat and chases into the woods. As he ignores my recall he bounds into the woods and hops around like a gazelle in a big circle then comes back to us. This is a 2 minute stint. I then give a treat because he finally did listen to my recall but not many treats because he did not listen right away. Im sure he totally tuned me out, Im not sure he was even able to tune in. He had a good recall even with distractions but not so anymore in this front door situation as his prey drive is now in full throttle. He is usually on a leash when someone is at the front door to stop from jumping on people which that chapter is almost closed. He is crated when its hectic here. We have kids, my husband works from home at times and have family always over so their is a lot of traffic coming in and out of here and realty I know i cant control every situation. Now that we are going through this with him, we anticipate him running out the door and make sure he has no opportunity to do so, but im afraid opportunity always knocks.I have been working on him staying in his spot and opening the door with me standing right there even if he sees a cat and he listens very well because he is not in a heightened state but in training mode. In the meantime, how do i make my recall more exciting then this new cat chasing game? I'm not sure if possible now that he knows he can play the game and still get a treat.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You are right about how he can't listen to you when he's in the zone.Keep practicing with him by the door the way you are doing.It will become an ingrained behavior.On the flipside,running out after the cats could become ingrained so continue to be diligent.

Samson did the same behavior between 6mths and 12mths.His recall is about 90% reliable now.If Misty takes off he's right with her,but just him and me he's golden.When I see him alert to something outside it's an immediate "Leave it" and he pauses.Then I immediately give him an alternative behavior.Either a recall ,toss him a toy,etc.This worked well for us


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes that is what am afraid of, I dont want that to be ingrained. My husband chases cats out of the backyard when the cats are near the bird feeder. I dont want Max to see that I dont think that helps. We are practicing staying with door open and I'm now using some pot roast to up the anti when I call him from the house when he is in backyard. Thank you and thanks I feel more positive we can do this.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You can do it! Another thing I do is carry treats with me always and call him to me occasionally when he's very intently sniffing at something.Just to practice breaking his concentration to respond to me.I have to use a sharp tone of voice to break the "spell" but then its all "happy voice" when he comes to me.Best of luck to you!


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> As he ignores my recall he bounds into the woods and hops around like a gazelle in a big circle then comes back to us. This is a 2 minute stint. I then give a treat because he finally did listen to my recall but not many treats because he did not listen right away.


It's not a good idea to repeat your recall until he decides he wants to listen to you. You know the moment he bolts out the door, he's not going to comply. It doesn't matter how many times you ask him...or plead with him...or scream at him. What you are teaching him is, "Hey pup! When you get around to it, come on back to me. Take your time! I'll be waiting here with a treat!"

Bolting through the door- you've already lost him. The opportunity to stop the behavior is gone. You'll have to go get him. If you have the room - you can walk away in the opposite direction (facing him), when he sees you and comes running, THEN give him the command and reward the behavior. 

The problem begins at the door. Although I know it's difficult when you have a busy home, teach him to ALWAYS wait at the door for a release. if he's in the habit of ALWAYS waiting at the door for a release, you'll be given the moment of hesitation you need to re-direct him when he sees the cat. He may not (in the beginning ...or ever) sit quietly and watch the cat(s) go dancing by, but the ingrained behavior of waiting at the door will give you a change to give him the "LEAVE IT!" command & always reward when he gives you that wanted behavior. He'll refocus on you because he knows a treat is coming. 

I have a very highly driven dog who totally comes out of his skin every time we go outside (off leash). Because I make him wait quietly every time, he watches me for the release. That gives me the opportunity to check out what's outside the door before he sees it. Once I release him he's like a bolt of lightning and actually makes a vocal squeal. I'll work him through that eventually, but I'll accept baby steps with him. I know he's trying his best.


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

7 months is a tough time for puppies! They are still puppies, but look like dogs! I remember going through this with Kyleigh at 7 months old ... it's hard! For her it was squirrels!

Personally, I would forget the recall in this instance right now and focus on stay / down / leave it ... etc. He's not listening when you call him back (and heck, why would he? Seriously, chasing that cat is WAAAYYY more fun than coming back to you ... treat or not treat! He still got to chase it!)

You want to be able to set his recall up to succeed, not fail. And when he bolts after those cats, he's not even listening to you ... you call him (repeatedly?) and he FINALLY comes ... that's not recall ... that's coming back when he's ready!

Practice his recall in the woods around those dang cats ... but he's on a long line ... that way when he's not focussed on you, you can reel him in on the line ... you win / he comes back! 

Also, get bomb proof leave it / stay / down and then your recall won't be your last option. 

And finally, LOL ... yes, lots of things ... work on his impulse control .. this is HARD LOL ... especially when he already knows just how much fun it is to chase those kitty cats

Put him in a sit / stay, throw his ball / toy and make him wait until he looks at you - then tell him to go get it and bring it back ... Repeat, a million times ... next step ... repeat this, but he has to wait for say 30 seconds, or a minute ... 

Then ... send him out, but call him back halfway ... 

This makes his brain think, and works on impulse control and recall! 

Lots of luck ... just remember, he's a puppy!!!!!!!! and chasing cats is FUN!


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I agree with Kyleigh about being solid with Other Commands and here's why:
Finn's tough with recall but he's pretty ok with the basic commands of sit, stay, drop it, bring it etc.
Today I let him out in the yard and it started raining so I called him in to the house...
Well, he started bolting around the yard like a wild animal, stopping to dig a quick hole in the dirt and bolting to another location to dig yet another quick hole in what is now MUD.
All the while I'm yelling COME! Finn NO Digging!!! COME!!!

I was ready to CHOKE him!!!!!! 
And then I yelled STAY!!! And he stopped dead in his tracks.
Then I said SIT! and he sat. Un-Freakin-believable!!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Personally, I would forget the recall in this instance right now and focus on stay / down / leave it ... etc. He's not listening when you call him back (and heck, why would he? Seriously, chasing that cat is WAAAYYY more fun than coming back to you ... treat or not treat! He still got to chase it!)
> 
> You want to be able to set his recall up to succeed, not fail. And when he bolts after those cats, he's not even listening to you ... you call him (repeatedly?) and he FINALLY comes ... that's not recall ... that's coming back when he's ready!


Coming back when he's ready isn't a recall. It's nice he returned finally, but it was in no way a 'recall'.

I agree with everyone else, you need to focus on the 'sit' before going out of the door, that is something you can control. And if he goes out, it's on leash or a long line because that way you can control how far he goes.

If you have some $$$ to spend, this really works ---> Recallers | Susan Garrett: Dog Trainer, Agility Champion, Owner of Say Yes Dog Training


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The title here is a bit misleading. There is no _"resistance to recall"_ in a dog, they just have a different agenda from us. What's important to them may or may not be important to us, and vice versa. The title implies that there may be either a willful resistance or that there's something inherent in dogs that makes them resistant to recalling. 

It's just that for many of them fulfilling their natural drives to chase something comes well ahead of performing trained behaviors, especially if methods are used that are not effective against those drives. A read of an article called _ The Misbehavior of Organisms _" will show this. 

I think that one of the easiest ways to get a reliable recall is to use an Ecollar with the methods DESCRIBED HERE.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

On top of that people unintentionally disincentivize the dog to recall all the time.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> On top of that people unintentionally disincentive the dog to recall all the time.


Been a million years since I've taught a recall but you could expand on the "disincentive" part??


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People will try to teach it motivationally with treats and crap like that but then when they try to use it for actual useful reasons they do stuff like recall the dog thats having fun to bring him inside, or recall him away from something he wants or someone he's having fun with and then put him up, or recall him to put on his leash and take away his freedom. When they start using it for real world uses the dog quickly decides it isn't in his interest to recall a lot of times.

Of course when you create stronger disincentive to the choice of not recalling you don't have to worry about stuff like that, but a lot of people don't punish so yeah...up **** creek without a paddle sometimes.


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Well how do you teach it bailiff?
I always taught it with a long line, never with treats but I did praise when they came- even when they were new to it and I realed them back in.


----------



## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

H


Findlay said:


> I agree with Kyleigh about being solid with Other Commands and here's why:
> Finn's tough with recall but he's pretty ok with the basic commands of sit, stay, drop it, bring it etc.
> Today I let him out in the yard and it started raining so I called him in to the house...
> Well, he started bolting around the yard like a wild animal, stopping to dig a quick hole in the dirt and bolting to another location to dig yet another quick hole in what is now MUD.
> ...


Haha this is totally wick too, will not recall for anything but if I say "sit stay" he will sit patiently waiting for me to come put his leash on, total dork. 

Although I have found recently that after playing hide and seek ("find me" being my cue for him to run and find me behind something) he will now "come" anytime I call saying that while "hiding" so i suppose it's sort of a recall?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max had a excellent recall as we have much practice with many distractions in our backyard wild turkey, deer, feral cats, ground hogs, squirrels visit as we are surrounded by all woods. Max would stop dead in his tracks and come to me. I was always impressed as he just a pup but now his paws got wet. Like the idea of going to practice stay and leave it in the woods -facing his vice head on. We have been working stay at the door. The idea of calling him only when heading to me in this situation is exactly what I was looking for for I knew that was the major part of the problem and do not want it ingrained in him to ignore me. That is why I am here. Its good to have a plan. Thanks everyone for your helpful advise


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> People will try to teach it motivationally with treats and crap like that but then when they try to use it for actual useful reasons they do stuff like recall the dog thats having fun to bring him inside, or recall him away from something he wants or someone he's having fun with and then put him up, or recall him to put on his leash and take away his freedom. When they start using it for real world uses the dog quickly decides it isn't in his interest to recall a lot of times.
> 
> Of course when you create stronger disincentive to the choice of not recalling you don't have to worry about stuff like that, but a lot of people don't punish so yeah...up **** creek without a paddle sometimes.


 Sounds like..working with Boxers!! 

Someone else has already mentioned it, but I also had much better results teaching a Down and Stay and working recall from there or going to the dog.

Stay usually sufficed and a Down was dropping a bomb on my Boxers in any case the flews would puff, in protest and Down she would go! 

But yes, I see your point, call the dog back and play time is over???


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Chip18 said:


> Sounds like..working with Boxers!!
> 
> Someone else has already mentioned it, but I also had much better results teaching a Down and Stay and working recall from there or going to the dog.
> 
> ...


You aren't supposed to 'call the dog back and play time is over' when teaching positively. You are supposed to call the dog back and play time BEGINS! 

Plus, the initial training is about teaching that YOU are the best fun in the world. You run away to be chased. You have toy/treats. YOu are a tugging fool. And you do this every day, all the time to try to make yourself as much fun as a squirrel (more fun cause you have THE TOY!).

Susan Garrett has a great online session coming up called Recallers, REALLY fantastic if you have or are planning to get a puppy in the near future, but works for older dogs to. REally about building such a great foundation that involves you that your dog wants to come, and not because they HAVE to come.

It is expensive, but you get a DVD with the sessions afterwards to use for reference and your next pup! Plus it's really well done in stages that are easy, fast and build on each other as you progress.

Recallers | Susan Garrett: Dog Trainer, Agility Champion, Owner of Say Yes Dog Training


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

*.*

Yes thank you. We are are and will be doing much more stay,sit,down. He does enjoy his training sessions. Max even does it well with minor distractions but still much work ahead for us for the ultimate cat chasing distractions. I have wanted to yell out stay when he ran out the door but know we are not ready for that to work yet. Again I love all the ideas to set him up for sucess. My daughter taught him to play volley ball and to tap ball with his nose and not chase(impressive). I will have to follow up with the impulse control kyleigh had mentioned with throwing the ball and having sit and stay then sending him off to get it. This is I feel will help him much practice controlling his instincts and he can use his brain again and remember I am much more entertaining then any cat


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Susan Garrett has a great online session coming up called Recallers


Didn't you link to this just a few posts back? 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> * It is expensive, *


How expensive? I looked for a price on her site but it seems that the only way to find out is to sign up to be on a mailing list. Did I miss a simple price schedule there?


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I think they don't normally hit you with pricing until after you sign up for the newsletter. They like getting that email.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max sitting at a stay leaving his ball


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Baillif said:


> I think they don't normally hit you with pricing until after you sign up for the newsletter. They like getting that email.


Yeah, I agree but I hate that business model and refuse to participate in it. That's why I asked MRL. Ms. Garrett shows plenty of pricing for seminars (about $500-$700) but not for this. Does that mean that it's REALLY expensive? Four figures?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Coming back when he's ready isn't a recall. It's nice he returned finally, but it was in no way a 'recall'.
> 
> I agree with everyone else, you need to focus on the 'sit' before going out of the door, that is something you can control. And if he goes out, it's on leash or a long line because that way you can control how far he goes.
> 
> If you have some $$$ to spend, this really works ---> Recallers | Susan Garrett: Dog Trainer, Agility Champion, Owner of Say Yes Dog Training


Hmm I must of missed this thanks. I will see how far we get. It looks helpful but is pricey. I will save the link If get stuck. Left the front door wide open today and had max stay for 2 minutes. Eventually we will add some distractions.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> Hmm I must of missed this thanks. I will see how far we get. It looks helpful but is pricey. I will save the link If get stuck. Left the front door wide open today and had max stay for 2 minutes. Eventually we will add some distractions.


Remember not to push him past his limitations in the beginning. You might even consider the 'wait' command as opposed to 'stay'. Sometimes it's easier to get him to comply when pushing the threshold using 'wait' (so he can be standing or sitting etc.). I suppose that would depend on your dog and how well you can read him. 

I saw the picture with the ball...very, very good! It's pretty cool when you see it click in his head, isn't it?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lilie said:


> Remember not to push him past his limitations in the beginning. You might even consider the 'wait' command as opposed to 'stay'. Sometimes it's easier to get him to comply when pushing the threshold using 'wait' (so he can be standing or sitting etc.). I suppose that would depend on your dog and how well you can read him.
> 
> I saw the picture with the ball...very, very good! It's pretty cool when you see it click in his head, isn't it?


Hi thank you! Yes i love to see that brain at its best!!!!


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> It looks helpful but is pricey.


_"Pricey?"_ How much is that?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm, not really sure why I get singled out on the recall thing?? I'm good thanks!

I'd never heard the term "resistance to recall" before, hence I asked the question and got an answer..sorry if my attempt at humor failed...my bad! :blush:

Moving on...

Apparently the undisclosed pricing seems to be a thing?? 

Personally I see very little need to drop hundreds of dollars on a DVD when there is tons of information available for uh...nothing!

Narrowing the field down is the challenge, I'm "not" a Click and treat guy, my GSD taught me the limits of that philosophy!

So that being said here is where I would go:

Out of courtesy and respect I will start with the E collar and Lou! 

Home

Lou has stated "all the information you need to use an E collar correctly can be found there!" 

Personalty. I train with a Slip lead, it's all I need, to walk "any" dog properly on a leash thus far?? But other then the videot I frequently post...I have found no one else that does that??? 



The Pros seem to just start out "students" with a Prong Collar simple as that! But they also offer tons of "free information." Pretty much everything you would "need" to know can be found here:

Training Videos – Solid K9 Training

Pod cast, videos and a weekly radio show! I started listening and it turns out, most of the advise I was offering,was the same as Jeff?? Except he is a pro, and I'm just JQP pet guy! 

look under the tag "Free advise" and go to town! 

Then we have Sean O'Day, free advise and DVD's at reasonable cost!
Who this page is for. - The Good Dog

And Lastly...sorry Lou, I know something of the history... but Leerburgh is where I went first when I found myself with "issues" with my GSD!

So Leerburgh, free advise, DVD's and online courses!
Leerburg Dog Training | Articles

And again out of respect, if David or Baillif get an "online presence" I'll add them to!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> _"Pricey?"_ How much is that?


I have not gotten a direct price it depends what level you sign up for . I believe there are three different levels . I have heard it can be $300 and up depending on which level you sign up.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes thanks chip18 Im all for free advise!


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Personally I see very little need to drop hundreds of dollars on a DVD when there is tons of information available for uh...nothing!


I'm with you. 



Chip18 said:


> Out of courtesy and respect I will start with the E collar and Lou!
> 
> Home
> 
> Lou has stated "all the information you need to use an E collar correctly can be found there!"


Welllll. Kinda sorta. The site says this, _"Welcome to LouCastle.com, the website that will help you learn to use an Ecollar."_ 



Chip18 said:


> Then we have Sean O'Day, free advise and DVD's at reasonable cost!
> Who this page is for. - The Good Dog


I think you mean Sean * O'Sheah. * I consider Sean a friend. He came out and took a private lesson with me a few years back. 



Chip18 said:


> And Lastly...sorry Lou, I know something of the history... but Leerburgh is where I went first when I found myself with "issues" with my GSD!


It's a place that a lot of people go. But the fact is that a newcomer needs to be very careful at this site. The site owner has been reborn several times (that is, he's changed training methods drastically, each time completely rejecting what came before the latest rebirth) but has not deleted old, abusive and at times DANGEROUS information from the site. That bad information is just a click away from the latest and greatest information. There's no way to tell which is the old, outdated information and which is the new stuff. 

But even after his latest rebirth, he's still very confused. He says that escape training is _"old school [and] abusive."_ then he has his latest video darling, Michael Ellis, pointing out (as I did when the owner made this absurd and ignorant statement) that his use of an Ecollar is "escape and/or avoidance training." Go to 1:38 of THIS VIDEO. 

BTW, even Mr. Ellis gets it wrong at times. In this clip he refers to a study with Mals that was "done in Mexico." In fact the study he refers to, the Salgirli Dissertation and was done in * Germany. * But the facts he states about the study are accurate. With highly motivated dogs, the Ecollar was found to be the least stressful, the pinch collar the most stressful and the so−called kinder, gentler method, was nearly completely ineffective. 

You can see by the title of the video, "Michael Ellis on Escape Avoidance Training" that the site owner does not even know the difference between escape training and avoidance training. That site is about the last place that I'd send a beginner for information. Besides the completely wrong information that can be found there, there's much that is highly dangerous.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> I have not gotten a direct price it depends what level you sign up for . I believe there are three different levels . I have heard it can be $300 and up depending on which level you sign up.


$300 isn't too bad, it's the _"and up"_ part that I'd be concerned about. But as Chip has pointed out, there's a HUGE amount of information that's available at no charge at all.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes if it solves the issue it would be priceless. I here she is very good. There are also levels/packages that you buy so it's basically based on that. Everything adds up I have him in obedience now and soon tracking. I just don't know if I am in need of that route yet. Lots of great info from everyone here and and yes received many informative web sites and your website info. If lived on a busy road then I would not be hesitant to consider the e collar to protect his life. He is very responsive to training I just dont think I need that route with him. I have used not the e collar but prong collar on my first shepherd and decided to use it when he almost dragged me in front of a car and we had wonderful and stress free walks because of the collar. I can walk my shepherd now on a flat collar but use a choke collar just in case I need more control if needed. Thanks again for all your helpful info. We have lots of homework!!!!!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

LouCastle said:


> Yeah, I agree but I hate that business model and refuse to participate in it. That's why I asked MRL. Ms. Garrett shows plenty of pricing for seminars (about $500-$700) but not for this. Does that mean that it's REALLY expensive? Four figures?


I'm not sure of the current price, they cover a YEAR of lessons/classes plus include a followup DVD with most of the video lessons, plus there are a ton of .pdf files, personal support, a couple of live webinars, sure I'm forgetting something.

I am in no way associated with Susan Garrett and don't get any benefit from recommending her. I just know her methods work, lessons are very short but build on each other, and don't just teach the dog but build a relationship between dog/handler.

They are expensive, they aren't for everyone, but when you budget out the cost for the year, and realize what a better dog trainer you will become to benefit ALL your dogs for the rest of your life, for many of us the cost is worth it.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sounds like it would make great bday present.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jenny720 said:


> Sounds like it would make great bday present.


:wub: :thumbup: :wub:


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I think Lou has sort of pointed this out but: Lots of free information but not all of it good and it can be challenging for someone with little experience (or even those of us with lots of years with dogs) to decide what is good advise for their situation. A while back I compared the internet to a huge library without a librarian to filter the information. Beyond the internet, it can be difficult to find trainers that are "right" for you and your dog. Somehow my post has devolved into the "just because it's free doesn't mean it's worth the price" caution about advise.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> Welllll. Kinda sorta. The site says this, _"Welcome to LouCastle.com, the website that will help you learn to use an Ecollar."_


 No problem, of course you know what your site says! 

When I do post it, I also let folks know that you are a member here!  




LouCastle said:


> I think you mean Sean * O'Sheah. * I consider Sean a friend. He came out and took a private lesson with me a few years back.


Yes of course you are correct! I got lazy and I stand corrected! :blush:

I did not know he had worked with you?? I guess as the song goes..."it's a small world...!"  




LouCastle said:


> It's a place that a lot of people go. But the fact is that a newcomer needs to be very careful at this site. The site owner has been reborn several times (that is, he's changed training methods drastically, each time completely rejecting what came before the latest rebirth) but has not deleted old, abusive and at times DANGEROUS information from the site. That bad information is just a click away from the latest and greatest information. There's no way to tell which is the old, outdated information and which is the new stuff.
> 
> But even after his latest rebirth, he's still very confused. He says that escape training is _"old school [and] abusive."_ then he has his latest video darling, Michael Ellis, pointing out (as I did when the owner made this absurd and ignorant statement) that his use of an Ecollar is "escape and/or avoidance training." Go to 1:38 of THIS VIDEO.
> 
> ...


 WOW alot there!! But not to worry in general I usually post general information stuff such as:

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt
Leerburg | Dog Parks: Why They Are A Bad Idea
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

And a few others, pretty much general advise and good policies. No idea where it came from but I found it at Leerburg.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> No problem, of course you know what your site says!
> 
> * When I do post it, I also let folks know that you are a member here! *


I appreciate that Chip, thanks. 



Chip18 said:


> I did not know he [referring to Sean O'Sheah] had worked with you?? I guess as the song goes..."it's a small world...!"


It's amazing how small it is. To be clear, Sean isn't using my methods specifically, as most trainers do, he puts his own spin on things. 



Chip18 said:


> WOW alot there!! But not to worry in general I usually post general information stuff such as:
> 
> Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt


It's good that you post specific links rather than just referring people to the site in general, but even doing it this way, there are problems. 

This article contains HORRIBLE advice about using an Ecollar on aggressive dogs. He writes, _"If dogs continue to show aggression I will use a remote collar in it's training. I did a training DVD that teaches Remote Collar Training for Pet Owners * With serious dog aggression a dog needs to receive high level stimulation for even looking at another dog. The key is for your timing to be for LOOKING and not for AGGRESSION. * Many times by the time a dog has elevated to the point of aggression it will not react to a normal levels of stimulation."_

There is so much wrong with this information, and it can be so dangerous for the dogs and their owners, that I'll veer off the topic of this thread to discuss it. 

Owners need to realize that MOST dog−to−dog aggression stems from insecurity, in short a fear response. Most trainers realize this, but this site owner FAILS to understand it. He thinks that it comes from dominance. In fact, that source of aggression is VERY rare among pets. 

First addressing the part in red, given that most owners will not have the perfect timing that using an Ecollar in this fashion requires, chances are that the dog will be well into _"the display of aggression"_ when the stim occurs. It's virtually impossible for the average pet owner (whatever that means) to press the button when the dog is at the stage of just looking because the instinctive display occurs microseconds after that and the average human response time is well behind that time frame. 

The truth is that if this is done, (the part that I've placed into bold) the dog being stimmed will probably think that the other dogs is _somehow _ hurting him badly from a distance! This can easily result in that dog stopping HIS DISPLAY OF AGGRESSION but still feeling the insecurity that leads to the aggressive display. The so−called aggressive display, the barking, growling, hair standing up (piloerection) lunging, spit flying, showing teeth, etc., are done to impress the other dog with how big and strong is the dog doing the display. Basically he's saying, "Look how big and dangerous I am! You better not come over here!" 

If you try to stim him when he just looks at the other dog, chances are that by the time you're on the button, he's already started this display. There are exchanges of these signals at EVERY glance that occurs between dogs. They don't have to be showing the full display, it's already happening in the dog's mind. More than likely the dog being stimmed will just learn to hide the warning signals that tell us and the other dog that he's insecure. He'll just sit quietly, because he's been corrected very hard for the display, but if you watch his eyes you'll see that they're darting around trying to keep an eye on the other dog. I've seen this several times. It can result in a dog going from calm to murder WITHOUT the warning display that dogs usually give in these situations. THAT can results in severe dog fights. 

This article, that you've linked to, is one of those that was written quite some time ago. It was updated when Mr. Frawley released his video on using the Ecollar about 2005 and a couple of time after that, but the basic message is still wrong. I reviewed that video. CLICK HERE. It's far from a favorable review. 



Chip18 said:


> Leerburg | Dog Parks: Why They Are A Bad Idea


ROFL. In a previous post you mentioned that you know "the history." I had been advocating about the danger of dog parks and using them ONLY for the distraction that they provide, on that forum for several years BEFORE this article was written. NOTHING from the site owner UNTIL, his latest video hero, Michael Ellis talked to him about it. 



Chip18 said:


> Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog


SO MUCH wrong here, and I've already ranged far from the topic of this thread, so I won't go into it. It's not dangerous, as is the article on dog−to−dog aggression. It just displays massive ignorance of dominance, pack structure, and how dogs should interact with family members. 

If anyone goes to that site for information, I suggest that they listen to the experts that the site owner uses in his videos, NOT the site owner himself. He's very confused about what's actually going on in a dog's mind. Too many rebirths without a full understanding of the theories behind them.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> SO MUCH wrong here, and I've already ranged far from the topic of this thread, so I won't go into it. It's not dangerous, as is the article on dog−to−dog aggression. It just displays massive ignorance of dominance, pack structure, and how dogs should interact with family members.
> 
> If anyone goes to that site for information, I suggest that they listen to the experts that the site owner uses in his videos, NOT the site owner himself. He's very confused about what's actually going on in a dog's mind. Too many rebirths without a full understanding of the theories behind them.


Uh oh!!! 

I tend "not" to disagree with folks that have vastly more experience in dealing with dogs then myself! 


But if this disagreement is about "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog???" I have to stand firmly behind that essay! 

First hand experience on that one and it's the way I roll in volunteer work. My experience was with my High Rank Drive 116lb GSD with "pack issues" and by the way don't much care for people either!!???

Company was greeted with a cold hard stare and a low growl by "Rocky" GSD?? I'm a pet person not a pro and my experience was with dogs of Molossler world ...Boxers,APBT/ Boxer and Bull Mastiff/APBT?lab mixes generally people loving dogs so Human aggression was alien to me??? 

"Who Pets..." is not an essay on rehabbing HA dogs dogs but not "knowing" any better... that is how "I" used it! I found that before I found this board and to me it made it sense...if I keep people out of my dogs face...he can't bite anyone...KISS principle in action! 

It worked out just fine! And under pressure on a walk this is what he did:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/4881481-post1.html

And Jeff Gellman also advises against letting strangers pet his dogs so it's not like I'm breaking new ground here. 


The E collar thing, so far I have not had the need for one?? But I defer to you in that regard. 

I've stopped "Deer Chasing" dogs with "Demeanor" and a Slip lead Leash??? So while I'm not a Pro as it were...apparently I'm pretty good??:blush:


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Uh oh!!!
> 
> I tend "not" to disagree with folks that have vastly more experience in dealing with dogs then myself!


I think that should depend more on what the topic is than the experience of who's making the comment. Experience, by itself, does not make a good dog trainer. It helps but if the basic understanding of K−9 behavior is not there, problems will arise. 



Chip18 said:


> But if this disagreement is about "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog???" * I have to stand firmly behind that essay! *


To me, and I've been accused of being too literal, this means that you support EVERYTHING that the article contains! Some of it is OK but much of it is simply wrong. 



Chip18 said:


> First hand experience on that one and it's the way I roll in volunteer work. My experience was with my High Rank Drive 116lb GSD with "pack issues" and by the way don't much care for people either!!???


VERY FEW people have a _"High Rank Drive 116lb GSD with "pack issues" and by the way don't much care for people either."_ Most people have pet quality dogs that DO NOT have high rank drive. And so advice that covers high rank drive dogs, as that article contains, is usually completely wrong for those with dogs that have low or even moderate amounts of rank drive. MOST PEOPLE have dogs that either like people, are neutral towards them or are afraid of them. And so, again, advice that is geared towards those who have dogs that _"don't care much for people"_ will not work for them. Nor will advice that is based on "dominant dog issues" work for them. 



Chip18 said:


> Company was greeted with a cold hard stare and a low growl by "Rocky" GSD?? I'm a pet person not a pro and my experience was with dogs of Molossler world ...Boxers,APBT/ Boxer and Bull Mastiff/APBT?lab mixes generally people loving dogs so Human aggression was alien to me???


Most dogs that do this are NOT displaying dominance. They're displaying fear or they may have been trained, sometimes inadvertently, to do so. It's difficult for the average pet owner to discern the difference between the various motivations for this behavior. The average pet owner usually is not good at reading his own dog. Often they completely miss the signals that the dogs are sending out. 



Chip18 said:


> "Who Pets..." is not an essay on rehabbing HA dogs dogs but not "knowing" any better... that is how "I" used it! I found that before I found this board and to me it made it sense... * if I keep people out of my dogs face...he can't bite anyone...KISS principle in action! *


You can do that by just pulling him in with the leash when others appear and want to pet him. That will have no training effect on his fear or his aggression (if that's why he's reacting badly to them) but it will prevent him from biting anyone for the obvious reason that he can't get to them. But that will not fix the issue. 

But the article goes FAR beyond just this. One of the main problems I have with it, is his advice on dogs in families (to the effect) that only one family member should be giving the dog commands. If that's the way it's done then when that family member is not around, he's at work, on vacation, or in the shower, other family members can't control the dog, say if someone comes to the front door. That's inappropriate in most pet homes. In homes with dogs that have been trained for protection (real protection, not sport work) this may be a serious problem. If the dog bites someone for any reason and only one family member can out the dog, there's a problem. 

This author writes in this article, _"New dog owners need to understand that training and handling are two different things. * Family members handle a trained dog when they take the dog outside or for walks, but this is not training."*_ The truth is that ANYTIME someone is in the dog's presence, training is going on, even if the human does not realize or intend it. 



Chip18 said:


> And Jeff Gellman also advises against letting strangers pet his dogs so it's not like I'm breaking new ground here.


I can't comment without having seen Mr. Gellman's words on the topic. As I said, the article you linked from Leerburg is quite far ranging and arbitrarily bounces around a lot, including an exposition about the law on service dogs that has nothing to do with the topic at all . It addresses BOTH strangers petting dogs and family members handling family dogs, two situations that are not related at all. I usually don't let strangers pet my dogs, except the ones that are trained for SAR. Those dogs must be friendly and accepting of everyone. 



Chip18 said:


> The E collar thing, so far I have not had the need for one?? But I defer to you in that regard.
> 
> I've stopped "Deer Chasing" dogs with "Demeanor" and a Slip lead Leash??? So while I'm not a Pro as it were...apparently I'm pretty good??


If you are not present, say the dog has gone into some brush and you can't see each other, if he's been away from you for several minutes and a deer suddenly breaks from cover right in front of him, will your dog chase it? Most owners will say, "No." And they'll be wrong. Has your training been tested like this? My work with an Ecollar on this has been tested, many times in training and on real deployments.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well this is certainly getting far afield of the original topic but as I feel it has value to others...I'll continue. 



LouCastle said:


> I think that should depend more on what the topic is than the experience of who's making the comment. Experience, by itself, does not make a good dog trainer. It helps but if the basic understanding of K−9 behavior is not there, problems will arise.


 That is of course a valid point! And if your starting at ground zero with dogs, I would suppose all the reams of available information looks pretty much the same?? 

Not so much for me, I had ten years experience training well behaved, well trained "family pets." My puppies had free range at 10 weeks, I never knew what a crate was?? Table surfing, couch and sock eating and HA?? All alien concepts to me?? 

Had I stayed in Molosser land, most likely, I would not be as good at dog training as I am today?? My first dog BullMasstiff/APBT/Lab mix, I had a Pro do an E val on! Dominate male dog was the diagnosis. 
Big surprise I know, no prob trained to ignore other dogs and we moved alone no biggie! And after much work he was able to get along in groups of dogs without the need to kick other dogs butts! 

But as to experts in the field my go to guys are "you" Jeff Gellman, Sean *O'Sheah*, and on here David and Bailliff. 

Jeff has an enormous volume of "free" information available and he does "family pets" I find that alot of things he says have been the same things I've said without knowing?? I was kinda stunned myself! 




LouCastle said:


> To me, and I've been accused of being too literal, this means that you support EVERYTHING that the article contains! Some of it is OK but much of it is simply wrong.


 I will bow down to your assessment on the "entirety" of the essay. I only took from it what I needed for my "issue." Today my GSD is safe in public so job done! And when I worked with a Boxer that had fear of people issues, he seemed a normal dog on a walk, until someone asked if they could pet him?? I looked at the dog and his eyes were big as saucers! I said "no sorry, he's in training" and we moved on. 




LouCastle said:


> VERY FEW people have a _"High Rank Drive 116lb GSD with "pack issues" and by the way don't much care for people either."_ Most people have pet quality dogs that DO NOT have high rank drive. And so advice that covers high rank drive dogs, as that article contains, is usually completely wrong for those with dogs that have low or even moderate amounts of rank drive. MOST PEOPLE have dogs that either like people, are neutral towards them or are afraid of them. And so, again, advice that is geared towards those who have dogs that _"don't care much for people"_ will not work for them. Nor will advice that is based on "dominant dog issues" work for them.


 Yeah I get that! Still my permanently bent little finger and the first stitches in my life tell me otherwise! Mistakes in breaking up a rank drive "issue" and I'll add that I still have the use of my right hand today because my Bullmastiff/APBT/Lab mix realized it was my hand in his mouth and let go while under full attack by 116lb of High Rank Drive GSD! 

He was calm "under pressure" to say the least!

Lack of understanding of "pack" structure lead to that fiasco...my bad! :blush: 





LouCastle said:


> Most dogs that do this are NOT displaying dominance. They're displaying fear or they may have been trained, sometimes inadvertently, to do so. It's difficult for the average pet owner to discern the difference between the various motivations for this behavior. The average pet owner usually is not good at reading his own dog. Often they completely miss the signals that the dogs are sending out.


 Well see the above but, but I'll give ground. 

I'm not a pro but fear or aggression, I had a GSD that was willing to bite the crap out of someone if steps were not taken stop it! As I said "Who pets..." is not a rehab solution but it was as I used it. It works for me and other dogs I have worked with. 





LouCastle said:


> You can do that by just pulling him in with the leash when others appear and want to pet him. That will have no training effect on his fear or his aggression (if that's why he's reacting badly to them) but it will prevent him from biting anyone for the obvious reason that he can't get to them. But that will not fix the issue.


 Yeah...but no! Rocky is also a "wobbly" dog, so no pulling and cranking on his neck! I would simply step in front and he accepted that as the norm. Hand signal for "Stay" I stepped in front, pretty much as simple as that. 





LouCastle said:


> But the article goes FAR beyond just this. One of the main problems I have with it, is his advice on dogs in families (to the effect) that only one family member should be giving the dog commands. If that's the way it's done then when that family member is not around, he's at work, on vacation, or in the shower, other family members can't control the dog, say if someone comes to the front door. That's inappropriate in most pet homes. In homes with dogs that have been trained for protection (real protection, not sport work) this may be a serious problem. If the dog bites someone for any reason and only one family member can out the dog, there's a problem.


 I'll accept your assessment of the "entirety" of the essay! 

I only took from it what I needed but the essence of it can be found here also: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.html

In the fearful dog blog so I tend to cover all bases! 



LouCastle said:


> This author writes in this article, _"New dog owners need to understand that training and handling are two different things. * Family members handle a trained dog when they take the dog outside or for walks, but this is not training."*_ The truth is that ANYTIME someone is in the dog's presence, training is going on, even if the human does not realize or intend it.


 Once again...you got me! I only worked with the "keep people out of my dogs face part"...my bad!:blush:



LouCastle said:


> I can't comment without having seen Mr. Gellman's words on the topic. As I said, the article you linked from Leerburg is quite far ranging and arbitrarily bounces around a lot, including an exposition about the law on service dogs that has nothing to do with the topic at all . It addresses BOTH strangers petting dogs and family members handling family dogs, two situations that are not related at all. I usually don't let strangers pet my dogs, except the ones that are trained for SAR. Those dogs must be friendly and accepting of everyone.


 No argument here,all I can say is see the above! I'm sure I read the whole essay years ago but I did not care about the other stuff, I only took what I needed...my bad! :blush: 

As for Jeff?? His volume of online information is enormous! As I say I like the KISS principle myself! If you break it down (dog training) to the essence it's about "demeanor" it's apparently a difficult concept to explain?

Thus far I have not been able to explain on here but narrowing dog training down to it's simplest concept..."the ability to walk any dog on a loose leash"...is what I do! I use a Slip Leash and apparently I am very, very good!:blush:

Jeff explains the concept of demeanor here: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

But folks still don't get it?? He says he takes 5 minuets to work the dog before he can walk them?? Most likely that is an exaggeration to make folks feel better?? I have worked with dogs that have never seen a leash in there lives and it takes me inside of 4 minuets and I took "Deer" dog from his owner, who he was pulling behind him and that took less the 2 minuets!



LouCastle said:


> If you are not present, say the dog has gone into some brush and you can't see each other, if he's been away from you for several minutes and a deer suddenly breaks from cover right in front of him, will your dog chase it? Most owners will say, "No." And they'll be wrong. Has your training been tested like this? My work with an Ecollar on this has been tested, many times in training and on real deployments.


Aww, well as you know, there is always "that guy!" 77,000 of us on here so there is always somebody that's gonna be that guy and yeah...that's me!

My personal dog "Boxer" rabbits were her thing! And she was trained "off" leash no e collar to chase rabbits to the North towards the mountains and not South towards the Hwy, off leash, tool free with the use of "NO!" 

Yes, had she been trained with an e collar she would not have chased rabbits at all! But it's NV open desert and if she chased them to the North I did not care! I "trained" that behavior tool free and Boxer folks are kinda anal, 50 yards away she was always under voice control and in view!

Deer dog is a Boxer and I'm really,really good with Boxers but not my dog. I have only worked with him once. He was a puller and he chased Deer, the owners had to chase him down for three blocks on one deer chase! I worked with him for thirty minuets and the pulling was gone inside of 2 minuets! Rest of that story is here:

Well I almost hate to post this. But I have to because yet again, I can't believe that "I" am the only one that can do it!

Loose leash walking as I posted is what I do.

We went to our friends to meet there new Boxers, as expected typical Boxer first time I saw him, but we were old friends already!! 

We talked about the walk, dog pulls, they have deer, dog chases deer, almost lost him. It's a problem. We go for a walk, the dog pulls on leash, we walk a bit more. I say let me try.

I un do the clip, from the collar, fashion a noose and take the dog! Boom instant "no pull" nothing, we walk zero issues! He explains to me how the Deer chasing is a problem. 

So we stop and talk, dog standing quietly by my side. I'm explaining to him how, yes that sounds pretty bad and most likely you will need an E collar and the Crittering protocol to stop it. But it's going to be kind of hard because where are you going to find a Deer to practice on??

It's at this point that I finally notice the "deer" chasing dog is standing quietly by my side but he's staring at something???

I look at the dog follow his gaze up the hill and lo and behold, two freaking deer standing 30 yards away staring at us??? I was stunned??? I say let's go and we move on, no muss, no fuss, no drama! 

I had also been explaining how if you use a prong, it should look like (what we were doing) but he was already pretty sold on the loose leash thing and did not see the point of a prong collar.

Yet again another you tube moment blown! But on the other hand yet ,again if you can get loose leash walking down the way it's shown in the clip I linked. You can walk any dog on a loose leash! 
__________________


If Deer dog was mine?? I have no doubt that "I" could control that crap tool free! But not my dog so I'll have to check up with my friends to see how it's going???


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think that we all "get" that there are several different training methods that can work with your average dog. That's all good, some take much less than others, but

Mr. Castle made reference to a situation that a dog has never or maybe only once or twice ever been exposed to. As far as pet training being primarily composed of exposure and repetition, I can see no other way besides an ecollar to get the command thru quickly in an unusual or emergency situation. Am I missing something?


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> As far as pet training being primarily composed of exposure and repetition, I can see no other way besides an ecollar to get the command thru quickly in an unusual or emergency situation. Am I missing something?


Do you think training recall would be considered an unusual or emergency situation?


----------

