# Changing to RAW when no vets approve...



## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

So another one about RAW and vets....

Since I live in argentina which has some of the best and cheapest meat in the world it would make sense to feed RAW (that's not the only reason obviously)

I am still studying the subject, waiting for the "Switching to Raw" book that I ordered (after hearing about it here) and waiting for Lauri's site to get back up(! before I make my decision... But;

Basically NO ONE here has never heard of this diet, and to be honest the vets I have spoken to here think I am crazy. I am a little bit scared of putting myself in a situation where if something happens to my pup the vets will just blame the diet immidiatly and I will be over my head in problems. 

Of course it makes it harder that the information available on the subject in spanish isn't much (though there is some) so I don't expect them to catch up anytime soon. 

So I guess in a way the question is; If a vet has no experience and doesn't approve are there problems my pup could have that he basically wouldn't understand/know of because I am feeding RAW?

Thoughts anyone?

-Thomas-


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I've found there are three different types of vets out there. Vets who approve of raw-feeding, those that are tolerant of raw-feeding, and those who are against raw-feeding. If you can't find a pro-raw vet (they're few and far between--I consider myself very fortunate that I found one!), a tolerant vet is your next best bet. The type of vet you want to avoid is the 'tunnel vision' vet. The ones that will blame any and all problems/illnesses your dog gets on the diet you choose to feed. Risa's original vet was one of those. Ris got sick and the vet kept trying to pin it on raw-feeding despite the fact that Risa had been perfectly fine eating exactly the same food for 8 months. It is very unfortunate, but some vets just can't look past your dog's 'odd' diet to actually diagnose the problem. 

The problem you're facing is pretty much the same one we face here in the States. Though there are more vets who are willing to overlook diet or are actually pro-raw now than there ever have been, it's still really hard to find a vet that will back your decision. It's unfortunate, but it's one of the things you have to deal with when you choose to feed your dog raw. You really have to stick to your guns and not be afraid to go to a different vet if it turns out yours is too blind to see past your dog's diet.

Good luck.


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## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

Yea, that's the understanding I got from reading around here. 

The problem I have is slightly different though because nobody here even know what it is, never heard about it, and doesn't seem to have interest hearing about it (remember they are 10-20 years behind)

My vet goes; I have been breeding for 15 years and all my dogs have been on kibble their whole life and they are healthy/happy as any dog can be, why change? 

So I guess my point is; I am not afraid of going to another vet, I just don't think it will make any difference. 

I have one more vet I haven't spoken to yet though, he is a bit far away, but he breeds GSDs and might be more updated...

I guess I still need to educate myself more on the subject to be able to hold my stand, my vet goes why? I go, because! 

It would be nice with some proper research to hold on to though, I guess that will come with time...


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

It does come with time. It took me a good year or more to feel comfortable talking about what I feed my dog. Before that, I pretty much skirted around the issue when asked. Now I'm confident in what I've chosen to do so it's less of a concern.









There is certainly nothing wrong with feeding kibble so I can understand your vet's point of view. But dogs have been eating raw meat for far longer than kibble.







I feed raw because I believe it is what's best for my dog's overall health. I also enjoy the control I have over what goes into my dog because, for the most part, I know exactly what she is eating. Since she has some food sensitivities, this is even more beneficial! It's easy to avoid the things that bother her.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_But dogs have been eating raw meat for far longer than kibble._

Exactly! I bet if you go out in the country, most people will still feed their dogs the leftovers of their daily meals and scraps, leftovers of the meat they slaughtered, including organs and bones. That's the way it has been for CENTURIES, long before kibble was invented.
Don't say to the vet you're doing a raw- or BARF diet,- since he obviously doesn't know what it is anyway,- just say it's "home made".


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

exactly. Dogs have been domesticated for, what?, 100,000 years? 

Kibble was invented in the 1930's? 

Ask him what all those dogs ate before kibble. 

He is right that most dogs who eat kibble do just fine on it. I don't think most folks who feed raw would disagree that high-quality kibble is a pefectly good way to feed a dog--especially for people that for whatever reason don't want to feed raw. And there are lots of reasons not to feed raw. Disapproval from a vet might be one reason. 

But...good as kibble may be, it is not the ONLY way that works. It is possible to feed a dog well on a home made diet of raw meat and bones. Anybody that says it is not possible is misinformed.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Horribly weak of me but I lie to my vet and tell him we feed the dogs kibble. The pup has always (from breeder) been raw fed and the other two have been raw fed for two years. The allergies with the little dog and fleas are gone and the bloodwork is great.

I like the raw forum on Boxerworld and Leerburg has great info.

I was extremely nervous and researched for two years. My husband wasn't completely sold until about a year into it. The shepherd breeder would not have put us on her waiting list had we not been feeding raw.

I do have a small bag of Oriejn that I thought I would use when we travel but it isn't that hard to do raw on the road.


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## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

Hehe, lie to the vet









I think it's easy to play devils advocate and say; yes, in the 30's we all thought smoking was healthy as well.. Going to kibble was supposedly a step forward, while going back to "what they fed before" is a step back..

But I guess the overall point is; it's a fact that loads of dogs are/have always been fed food and are perfectly ok.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_Going to kibble was supposedly a step forward,...._

But NOT for the dog! Only for the owners who were looking for a CHEAP way of feeding their animals! The mill operators needed to get rid of their "trash" (by products) and after the war, it was a perfect solution for the people (= cheap and no hassle). It was not for the better of the dog!


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## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

I personally agree, but I am not sure that's the general opinion that's all I am saying....


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Just tell your vet you feed your dog a homemade diet.

That IS what you feed, yes? You bring home the food, prepare the food, and feed it. Home made. 

Whether you toss it in the oven or on the grill is a small detail. Many vets are comfortable with homemade. You're a good dedicated owner. Be sure to feed lots of variety and make sure it's balanced, but otherwise, what a great idea. 

Oh, you feed raw? Terrible idea.









We educate the ignorant in small steps.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I came across this link earlier today, and thought of your posts:

http://www.lobourbano.com

I have no idea how good it is, as I don't speak or read spanish. The link was included in a list of links for raw feeding and it said "for spanish speakers"


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

My Spanish is a bit rusty but, from what I read, this link looks like a great place for you to start.







Seems to be very knowledgeable about raw-feeding.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

My thoughts as well. They say that supplements are a waste of money (except fish oil, or supplement prescribed by your vet), which some of us here would disagree with. 

But this website has solid basic information. Not super thorough, but I'd send someone to this site to get started. 

Nice find, Melissa!


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## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

That is a great site! Can't believe i missed that in my quuest to find spanish sites on the subject. I found a few other but they are just blatantly translated from original english articles and some of the stuff didn't make sense.

And I guess nobody can really complain on a "home made diet".

I am going to wait until the book arrives though I am tempted to just go for it (first couple of weeks are "simple" anyway as far as I understand)... 

Thanks all


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I'm glad it works and has some good info!









I think I'll add it to the BARF resources sticky up top!


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## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

It does raise another question for me though, pure RAW or B.A.R.F... information overload


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I use those terms (Raw/BARF) interchangeably. As far as I'm aware, those aren't separate diets. 

All raw canine diets are based on the same primary elements of raw meat, raw bones, raw organs. It's all the other stuff (veggies, oils, eggs, supplements, enzymes, yogurt, tripe, etc. etc. etc.) that people use to personalize the diet. None of those things will harm a dog (assuming the dog isn't allergic/intolerant to an item), and many can be nutritionally beneficial. The debate is whether or not they are absolutely necessary. You won't find consensus on that.


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## thor wgsd (Jun 18, 2008)

Didn't think so









My understanding so far is that there's basically two camps though; 

One that only feeds bones/meat/incestines and one that adds "all the other stuff" (and believes that it's needed to get a balanced diet). 

It is interesting because I think that it's related to the whole carnivore/obligate carnivore/omnivorous discussion and how they digest the different things (anyone know of a good credible article about that btw?)

-thomas-


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I got information about dogs needing foods other than simply meat and meat products when I first read Richard Pitcairn, DVM's book "Natural Health of Dogs & Cats." Dr. Pitcairn was one of the ground-breakers in the get-away-from-commercial food movement. Unfortunately, his website isn't very informative. It's worth a minute or two visit, but he just refers you to his book. 

Vegetables, cottage cheese, eggs, all that stuff. He recommends it highly. Plus, it just makes sense to me. It works with my understanding of nutrition and my view of the world. I wish I had a concise article (other than a book) to recommend to you. Alas, I don't.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

There are two 'factions' of raw-feeding that I know of. BARF and prey-model. BARF feeding usually involves more bone as well as veggie mash. Prey-model feeding is based on a ratio of what wolves eat in the wild and doesn't include vegetable matter.

In general, however, I think raw diets are pretty varied. Most of us do some research, choose a method, and tweak it to our dogs. I tend to follow the prey-model way of feeding, however, Risa requires more RMBs than the 10% recommended with this method. It's all about doing what works best for your dog.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I am from the US, and tend to ignore my vet's advice when it comes to feeding and training. How little most vets know about the afore-mentioned is astounding.

When it cmes to feeding I pay attention to this board, and some very good trainers I know.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Remember that vets have to learn about more than one type of animal ~rodents, cats, dogs, reptiles, birds, etc...and few can afford to specialize. I feel if they can do a good job in diagnosing the really important stuff, it is up to us as responsible pet owners to research what we own and do the best we can for them. With the great internet it can be helpful or harmful. Human Dr.s only have one body to study, aren't they lucky?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: thor wgsd......
> 
> Basically NO ONE here has never heard of this diet, and to be honest the vets I have spoken to here think I am crazy. I am a little bit scared of putting myself in a situation where if something happens to my pup the vets will just blame the diet immidiatly and I will be over my head in problems.
> 
> ...


I don't feed raw, but have great experience at doing things that the vets don't understand or even approve of. 

And ultimately, you have to do what you think is best for your dog, and take everything one step at a time. Feeding raw, with or without the advice of your vet, is the first step in you taking charge of the health of your dog. It can be an intimidating step.


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## kallie (Sep 3, 2001)

I'm lucky as my vet is very open to it, and quite interested in it too..Some of my past vets would in no way approve of it, so I'm glad they are just emergency vets..


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: kallieI'm lucky as my vet is very open to it, and quite interested in it too..Some of my past vets would in no way approve of it, so I'm glad they are just emergency vets..


Just be careful about e-vets not liking raw. I had a friend (who feeds raw) go to the e-vet with her dog and the vet INSISTED it was blockage (or something) due to the raw food...when it really turned out to be dehydration.







So, the poor dog had surgery for nothing.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

I recently switched vets--to a holistic practice that blends traditional western vet medicine with acupuncture, T-Touch, Chinese herbs, and other non-traditional therapies. My new vet enthusiastically supports raw feeding. They also follow a much more conservatice approach to vaccinations than many traditional vets, which I also like. 

So--you may have to hunt a bit, but there are vets out there that will actually support raw feeding, rather than just tolerate it.


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## kallie (Sep 3, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: kallieI'm lucky as my vet is very open to it, and quite interested in it too..Some of my past vets would in no way approve of it, so I'm glad they are just emergency vets..
> ...


Oh no sorry these are vets that I have been to for years, prior to my recent vet


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## kallie (Sep 3, 2001)

> Quote:So--you may have to hunt a bit, but there are vets out there that will actually support raw feeding, rather than just tolerate it.


I agree...My vet is actually a traditional vet, but very supportive of my feeding of raw..


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: kallie
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: mspiker03
> ...


that is good. I just hate to see another dog go through a useless surgery like my friends dog had to. I was already warned to stay away from the vet she went to (long before we switched to raw).


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