# Why do so called pandas cause controversy?



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

From my understanding they are just as healthy as a "normal" GSD and the same temperament so why does coat color cause such problems? The father of my up comming pup is a panda and mom is a black. I am not getting it for the color but the temperament. It is going to be my sons seizure RESPONSE dog. The breeder puts all her dogs through health and temperament training. She does not breed for color (only one of her dogs is a panda) but for health and temperament. Both mom and dad are service dogs


----------



## Tibs (Dec 11, 2017)

I am also curious about this. 

I think they are generally thought of as "less healthy" because as far as I know most panda colored shepherds are not being bred for a purpose, be it work or show. Many bad breeders just breed for color at the potential detriment to temperament and health. If the parents are healthy, have their Hips/Elbow OFA or PennHIP scores, DM testing, and other health clearances, and have been worked in something, and show they will have the correct temperament for doing service dog work, it doesn't matter that the mother has panda coloring. Does this breeder specialize in service dogs? What are the parents like? have they done any service work? I think health, correct temperament, and correct working ability is more important than color.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, for one thing: right, wrong, or indifferent a reputable breeder wouldn't touch a panda with a ten foot pole. Which means they are basically only being bred by non reputable breeders. And lots of times these breeders are also breeding for other rare but faulty colors like liver, blue ect.

Is the temperament really the same as any other GSD...no, not exactly. Yes maybe to a point. Reputable breeders are testing their dogs in some working venue, to prove temperament and ability to a neutral third party to show what they have created. Where is the panda breeder doing this? Show me a panda with working accomplishments? I don't know if they are out there or not as I have never researched it much at all.

I have a similar example though because I own a white GSD. And he, like most whites, is the product of heritage that has been separated from the rest of the GSD population for a good while now, like many pandas probably are too. The breeder of my white does title her dogs pretty extensively and is very involved in health testing and a genetic database for whites to help them be as healthy as they can be.

For the most part---when anyone is breeding for a "color" (panda being a color) then that is their criteria. The criteria SHOULD be temperament, working ability, and health, and if you select for those things first you don't usually get your pick of color so the reverse is also true, if you choose by color first you are probably not getting the best dog as far as temperament working ability and health and therein lies the problem.

Now for whites I think it is slightly different since they are almost their own breed and reputable breeders are selecting the best of those criteria from the whites (of which I would guess there are many more to choose from than pandas, livers or blues for example) Although it is MY opinion that white fanciers ought to be crossing color genetics back into their lines in order to improve what they have. But line crossing apparently is kind of taboo.

I have much more I could say about all that so I'll just jump to this: BOTH parents are service dogs? Like, real service dogs? This makes me suspicious, not the least reason being that most people would not use an intact female as a service dog because she would be out of commission two months out of the year as she could not be in public in heat. And the vast majority of people using SDs don't use intact males either. I'd be digging a lot deeper on those two dogs as service dogs.

Now, if you are buying a puppy prospect for a service dog you have a lot riding on it and you need to stack the odds in your favor. This does not sound like a litter I would consider for a SD prospect pup, but I'd need to know a lot more about it.

This is going to be a seizure alert SD for a child? How old is this child? Can he realistically handle an adolescent GSD in public??


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The controversy isn't just about the color, the controversy is more about what dogs of that color often lack.

If the panda-colored sire has completed standard health clearances for the breed (Hips, Elbows, perhaps DM, had his temperament assessed by a third party, etc), and has successfully been worked or shown / trialed / titled in a breed-appropriate venue, that's one thing. 

A large reason there is strong objection or "controversy" is that panda dogs tend to fall short on _many_ other standard measures - not simply coat color.

If someone joins this forum and shares photos/stories/video of their healthy panda-coated GSD doing meaningful work or succeeding in trials, I'm quite certain there would be interest and support from most of the membership here.


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

Not alert a response dog. Alert is not a taught thing. The mother is a service dog for the wife (wife is epileptic) and the male for the husband (he has mobility issues) I have talked to a few people who received dogs from them with good responses. 

She is not breeding for the panda coloring. Some of her females are traditional colors. She breeds based on health exams and temperament tests. (I have also talked to her vet. She called all my references, vet and trainer) . She focuses her breeds on possible service dog capabilities. 

Xzavier is 12. He is very good with animals (he helps a lot on a friends farm). He is 5ft 7inchs and 140 pounds. He is no light weight and is very attentive to animals. He has shown cows a few times for my friend with no issue controlling them when they get in a mood. He also helps walk my husbands aunts german shep who is a puller and has never let go of the leash and has kept her in check when walking her. I am thinking ahead as well. Dr said he is easily in the next few years going to make at least 6ft and 180-200 pounds. He has gained 8inches in the last year alone.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, for one thing: right, wrong, or indifferent a reputable breeder wouldn't touch a panda with a ten foot pole. Which means they are basically only being bred by non reputable breeders. And lots of times these breeders are also breeding for other rare but faulty colors like liver, blue ect.
> 
> Is the temperament really the same as any other GSD...no, not exactly. Yes maybe to a point. Reputable breeders are testing their dogs in some working venue, to prove temperament and ability to a neutral third party to show what they have created. Where is the panda breeder doing this? Show me a panda with working accomplishments? I don't know if they are out there or not as I have never researched it much at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Response meaning what, exactly?

How does this couple handle having each of their SDs preoccupied with the other when the female is in heat? How does she handle not using the female in public while she is in heat? Do they actually take these dogs in public?

What health testing has been done on the parents?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Xenobiarose said:


> She breeds based on health exams and temperament tests. (I have also talked to her vet. She called all my references, vet and trainer) . She focuses her breeds on possible service dog capabilities.


Are you saying the breeders dogs were only examined by a vet but never had hips or elbows xrayed or any other health tests? 

What kind of temperament tests have these dogs have done?


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Well, you did say the breeder wasn't breeding for color. Do you know why she chose these two to breed? I would really REALLY look into that if I were you. It does sound "off"..a breeding pair of SDs. Unfortunately anyone can call a dog a SD. What tasks do each of the parents do? These are questions you should be asking.

Here is the deal..and I am only looking out for you. The only time a SD is sold to someone as an SD is after the dog has already become an SD. If someone is selling you a puppy saying it will be a SD..run away. Don't spend your money on that.

EVEN in a litter of dog from slamming good bloodlines, not all will be everything the parents were. Hey, people who have parents that stink at math go on to become math geniuses. And vice versa. 

What you are embarking on, this way, is a crap shoot at best.

Now, sometimes existing pets demonstrate an ability, and go on to become SDs for their owners. However it is much more common for the opposite to happen. An intended SD becomes just a pet.|

If you do give taking a chance on a pup a try...make SURE you are able to keep him if he winds up being loved pet quality only. And please DON'T present him as an SD if he really isn't perfect and up to snuff.

My son has autism and seizures too. I took a crap shoot on a 3 month old purebred GSD who showed incredible potential as an SD for my son with autism. Did everything perfect. OB was spot on. Recall was perfect. He was definitely public access worthy. Super intelligent.

What happened though? He never became attentive enough to be a SD for my son. My son could be doing a back flip off a cliff into a river, and Alvin may or may not have noticed. Oh, and we couldn't get him to bark and alert if my son was leaving the house. Whaaa whaaa wahhhh...loved pet, not a SD. AND here is the kicker. Because I had him (I knew it was a crap shoot and knew I could not/would not rehome if he failed)..having him precluded me from being able to try again with another dog. He was my 3rd dog. Can only handle as many dogs as you can afford and handle. If you are responsible.

My advice to you would be to reach out to Canine Companions for Independence or Paws With A cause..or one of those agencies and get on a waitlist for a dog that will be a seizure alert dog. If you really truly need an SD, get one. If you are open to taking a chance on a pup, then get one knowing he might (most likely) be just a pet. The latter is a good option for people who would benefit for a dog, but don't have a high immediate need. Seizure alert is a pretty high level task, and the odds of a random pup being one is honestly very slim. 

My dogs bark when my sons have seizures, but as of yet neither has the stoic nature and focus a SD truly needs. And, who knows if they will do it consistently? Did they do it because he was trembling, or did they do it because they can "detect" seizures? That will only play out in the fullness of time, and part 2 which is impeccable perfect manners and attention outside the home may or may not be achieved. If it comes together, great! If not, I won't fake it or go around with a poor representative of an SD. It is a huge disservice to those who did it the right way. 

If this breeder is touting that these pups will be service dogs, then I am sure she is charging well enough for it. If you are going to roll the dice and try with a purchased puppy, forget this breeder, hop on the section of the forum about finding a breeder for your purposes. You will get sent in the right direction. I'd rather take my chances on a dog with titled lineage, over someone breeding Pandas and Blacks and saying both are SDs and pups will be too. Just.Doesn't.Sound.Legit.

Just looking out for you. Like I said I have kids with issues too, and don't want to see you duped or disappointed.


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

Seizure response dogs respond to having someone having a seizure (breaking fall, rolling them to their side, laying with them to keep them on their side, barking to alert those around them their owner is having a seizure, some use alarm buttons to call for medical help, some dial 911, and other various tasks. An alert dog warns of a oncoming seizure and is not a trainable trait. Their response to it is but not the ability to detect a seizure comming in)

Dm and Ofa for health. 




Thecowboysgirl said:


> Response meaning what, exactly?
> 
> How does this couple handle having each of their SDs preoccupied with the other when the female is in heat? How does she handle not using the female in public while she is in heat? Do they actually take these dogs in public?
> 
> What health testing has been done on the parents?


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

She did not say it WILL be a service dog. She said she does temperament testing for the best possible candidates. The issue I ran into with the organizations they ether want the child to be over the age of 14 or have more than 2 seizures a month which nether fit my son so he can't get a dog through these programs. I already tried that route. We have a local trainer who has had a good success rate training service dogs (not all went on to be service dogs)
I am looking for very simple things.
Bark when he is seizing
Roll him on his side
And lay with him while seizing then when his body relaxes to lick him to help bring him to and give him comfort after the seizure. 



CometDog said:


> Well, you did say the breeder wasn't breeding for color. Do you know why she chose these two to breed? I would really REALLY look into that if I were you. It does sound "off"..a breeding pair of SDs. Unfortunately anyone can call a dog a SD. What tasks do each of the parents do? These are questions you should be asking.
> 
> Here is the deal..and I am only looking out for you. The only time a SD is sold to someone as an SD is after the dog has already become an SD. If someone is selling you a puppy saying it will be a SD..run away. Don't spend your money on that.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

One question I have is what is the panda coloring supposed to be? It's just supposed to be piebald or something similar correct? My understanding what it was just supposed to be large white patches. But I've seen lots of so-called pandas advertised that look like blue heeler/german shepherd mixes in that they have spotting like a heeler, some had blue eyes, and just in general other 'off' german shepherd traits. Not just german shepherds with large white patches. I could completely see a panda as being a mutation or some recessive that's been floating around. But it seems to have caused a lot of mutts being marketed as pandas from what I've seen.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I understand the frustration of dealing with organizations. I am sure CCI provides for children though. Do not know about the others.

Do these two service dog parents go everywhere with their people? If I were you I would ask to go on an outing with them and see for yourself how they do. Well, at least the dad. The mom is a little tied up right now..which again, does not jive with being an SD. Look for signs that they may not be truly trained...i.e paying attention to other people and distractions, sniffing around, checking out packages in the food store.

Why? Because dogs that do that sort of stuff despite being called SDs stand to ruin it for everyone. Irresponsible designation only opens the door for legislation to get through.

If people here sound snarky or defensive, it's because so called SDs..who may be able to do tasks indeed, have poor public manners however, and absolutely ruin it for the ones who did it the right way. 

I have been barked at by dogs wearing a vest. I've seen them greet people and not pay attention to their handler. No, that is not a full service dog who should be granted full public access. It's a complicated thing, it has a lot of aspects that have to met besides doing their task. 

I'll just repeat because it is that important- take the chance if you are willing, but please make sure they genuinely pass all public access tests.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

CometDog said:


> Well, you did say the breeder wasn't breeding for color. Do you know why she chose these two to breed? I would really REALLY look into that if I were you. It does sound "off"..a breeding pair of SDs. Unfortunately anyone can call a dog a SD. What tasks do each of the parents do? These are questions you should be asking.
> 
> Here is the deal..and I am only looking out for you. The only time a SD is sold to someone as an SD is after the dog has already become an SD. If someone is selling you a puppy saying it will be a SD..run away. Don't spend your money on that.
> 
> ...


I agree with this almost 100%, I'd just add that i do think a reputable breeder who knows what they are doing and has produced dogs that went on to work as SDs before can say "this pup is a good candidate" 

NOT this pup is a service dog, or this pup will definitely make it as a service dog.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Breaking the fall for a 140 lb person? Do they train dogs to do that? It doesn't sound safe for the dog.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

CometDog said:


> I understand the frustration of dealing with organizations. I am sure CCI provides for children though. Do not know about the others.
> 
> Do these two service dog parents go everywhere with their people? If I were you I would ask to go on an outing with them and see for yourself how they do. Well, at least the dad. The mom is a little tied up right now..which again, does not jive with being an SD. Look for signs that they may not be truly trained...i.e paying attention to other people and distractions, sniffing around, checking out packages in the food store.
> 
> ...


yes, yes, yes

Some people may not really mean harm in it...sometimes it is ignorance. But nonetheless, same effect over all.


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

There is a local school who does service dog training and our pup will be put in that. It starts with puppy play group and obedience, then moves to good citizen, then training for what we need done and then on to public access. (During public access they must show they will do what their owner needs done) 



CometDog said:


> I understand the frustration of dealing with organizations. I am sure CCI provides for children though. Do not know about the others.
> 
> Do these two service dog parents go everywhere with their people? If I were you I would ask to go on an outing with them and see for yourself how they do. Well, at least the dad. The mom is a little tied up right now..which again, does not jive with being an SD. Look for signs that they may not be truly trained...i.e paying attention to other people and distractions, sniffing around, checking out packages in the food store.
> 
> ...


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Breaking the fall for a 140 lb person? Do they train dogs to do that? It doesn't sound safe for the dog.


Yes they do. However I am not looking for fall breaking whereas I am with you on the injury possibility for the dog.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> The controversy isn't just about the color, the controversy is more about what dogs of that color often lack.
> 
> If the panda-colored sire has completed standard health clearances for the breed (Hips, Elbows, perhaps DM, had his temperament assessed by a third party, etc), and has successfully been worked or shown / trialed / titled in a breed-appropriate venue, that's one thing.
> 
> ...


This bears repeating. It isn't JUST that they have panda markings. It is due to external factors that tend to go hand in hand with breeding of panda GSDs.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Here's the thing. Responsible breeders breed to the breed standard. Panda is a fault. Responsible breeders won't touch them.

There are TONS of great GSDs out there. With perfect temperaments and working drives. There is NO REASON to use one with such a serious fault as Panda Marking. 

Quite frankly I think this breeder is taking you for a ride. It's already a big risk getting a puppy for SD work. 

I'd abort mission and find another source. Maybe not even a GSD.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Can pandas pop up unexpectedly in a litter?


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Xenobiarose said:


> Yes they do. However I am not looking for fall breaking whereas I am with you on the injury possibility for the dog.


Let me ask a few more questions..completely in the interest of helping. 

How did you find this breeder? Was she recommended by a trainer or people who have bought puppies that successfully became SDs?

It is great to hear you are going for official established training. 

I have to ask though...why a GSD? With your son's projected size, and considering you want the dog to aid in falling situations, have you considered a larger breed maybe one bred for draft work? Like say, a Greater Swiss, a Bernese Mountain Dog, or a Newfoundland? With their structure and what they have been bred to do with their bodies, that may be a better breed?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Can pandas pop up unexpectedly in a litter?


It's an extremely remote possibility. Like you are more likely to win the powerball - without purchasing a ticket. Like finding the ticket at the bus stop rare. 

It was caused by a freak KIT gene mutation in a single dog of a litter. This was the first panda:

Lewcinka's Franka von Phenom

Turned out to be inheritable. All pandas go back to this dog. 

Mutations happen. So there is that rare possibility of it happening in another litter but it's unlikely to happen again in our lifetimes.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Xenobiarose said:


> There is a local school who does service dog training and our pup will be put in that. It starts with puppy play group and obedience, then moves to good citizen, then training for what we need done and then on to public access. (During public access they must show they will do what their owner needs done)


Puppy play group for a SD candidate?

I raised a guide dog pup for my senior project way back when. They DISCOURAGED allowing the pups to play with other dogs. EXPOSURE to them - yes. But not allowing play.

You want a service dog to be neutral to other dogs. Puppy play groups do not help teach dogs to be neutral... I don't know that I would be comfortable doing one with a dog I was planning on raising to be a SD. 

I also agree with what other posters have pointed out... it is MAJORLY SKETCH for two active working service dogs to be bred...


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

How does that even work? Does the dam get maternity leave? I kid, but seriously, if she's also a working service dog, isn't she needed by her handler during the time she's spending being pregnant and nursing puppies?


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

I am not looking for it to break falls. I said that could be one of their tasks and that I didn't want it to break falls. 
I found her through a few people that got sds through her in a service dog support group. 
Gsd is what was recommended by the trainer



CometDog said:


> Let me ask a few more questions..completely in the interest of helping.
> 
> How did you find this breeder? Was she recommended by a trainer or people who have bought puppies that successfully became SDs?
> 
> ...


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

Sorry Ment preschool


Group Puppy Preschool Class
Basic Obedience & Canine Good Citizen Class
10 Private training lessons
Public Access Training
Age appropriate learning toys
Vest, harness
Additional lessons at a 50% discount





voodoolamb said:


> Puppy play group for a SD candidate?
> 
> I raised a guide dog pup for my senior project way back when. They DISCOURAGED allowing the pups to play with other dogs. EXPOSURE to them - yes. But not allowing play.
> 
> ...


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Xenobiarose said:


> Sorry Ment preschool
> 
> 
> Group Puppy Preschool Class
> ...


Ok good!!! Group obedience classes are always a good way to teach dogs to work around other dogs. I am curious though about what the difference between puppy preschool and basic obedience is though...


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Ok good!!! Group obedience classes are always a good way to teach dogs to work around other dogs. I am curious though about what the difference between puppy preschool and basic obedience is though...


Isn't "preschool" another way of saying puppy free for all?

I'd want to go to a school that just spends time handling puppies. Feet touching, ear touching, etc.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Isn't "preschool" another way of saying puppy free for all?
> 
> I'd want to go to a school that just spends time handling puppies. Feet touching, ear touching, etc.


Is that what you did with your puppy?


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Isn't "preschool" another way of saying puppy free for all?
> 
> I'd want to go to a school that just spends time handling puppies. Feet touching, ear touching, etc.


Around here they call the free for all ones "play groups" (Which may or may not be a part of "puppy class" 

Most of the places here have Puppy Class and Beginner... Beginner for dogs over 6 mons. Puppy for the youngin's... But they basically cover all the same stuff. Sit. Stay. LLW. Leave it. Place etc. But the puppy classes have more open forum discussion about stuff like house breaking, chewing, socialization etc, where as beginner class is more too the bones OB work. 

Personally, I prefer to skip the puppy classes all together and just do beginner classes. Too much stuff I like to imprint on and expose young pups to in the first few weeks at home and only so many hours in the week ya know? Besides, by the time my dog is old enough for beginner he has probably already learned most of the commands at home and it is a great opportunity to start working under distraction in a controlled setting. I feel like I get a nice head start with everything.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> Isn't "preschool" another way of saying puppy free for all?
> 
> I'd want to go to a school that just spends time handling puppies. Feet touching, ear touching, etc.


The puppy class I did with my dog was for Q&A on training house manners and socialization and for teaching basic obedience but with expectations tempered for 8-12 week old puppies. My dog knew sit, down, come, leave it, and the beginning of heel by the end of that class. We had also started working stays, but with very low expectations for how long they would have to do so (like walk from heel position around your puppy once and release).

The feet touching and ear touching is a really good idea. We kiiiind of touched on that too but not much.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is that what you did with your puppy?


Feet, ears, teeth, held still, and entire body. Good for them to allow that touch as they get older and have to go to the vets or check for injuries.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Any Puppy Class I have ever done was usually called Puppy Kindergarten or something like that. We just did basic stuff. It was same curriculum as basic class. So you didn't go from Puppy K to Basic, you then went straight to next level above basic. Free play was NOT allowed. It was all about handler owner focus around distractions. Leash manners, basic commands. The guy who ran it discouraged free group play period, including dog parks. This was a regular training place, not work, sport or service dog geared.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Xenobiarose said:


> I am not looking for it to break falls. I said that could be one of their tasks and that I didn't want it to break falls.
> I found her through a few people that got sds through her in a service dog support group.
> Gsd is what was recommended by the trainer
> 
> ...


your trainer recommended a gsd for a child? I would have recommended a golden.
@VooDoo puppy play class, puppy k, not out of the question for a sd candidate puppy.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I started reading through the responses but most were too long to pay attention to and still watch fight for life. It's big cat week on Nat Geo and these lion shows are really occupying too much of my time.
Anyway there is a lady that goes to the same vet as my dogs. She has a panda Shepherd. I asked her about him one day. He is 8 or 9 yrs old. kind of aloof, but when I approached them to talk he was friendly. For his age got around with no signs of any joint issues. Lady said he loves to chase his ball so I assume he has some prey drive.
I wouldn't worry too much about color and what people think. If health and temperament aren't an issue with the pup then enjoy him or her. The only one I have seen at the vet seems just as healthy as most conventional German Shepherds. Healthier than some actually.


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

He has had the best luck with GSDs and Poodles. He did say Holden's and labs work good to but I refuse to have a golden in my home. Far to many bad experiences with them and not a fan of labs. I have had good experiences with GSDs and have helped my husbands aunt train hers. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> your trainer recommended a gsd for a child? I would have recommended a golden.
> @VooDoo puppy play class, puppy k, not out of the question for a sd candidate puppy.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

At the same time there was a discussion going on about Pandas in the States, which were still fairly new, a poster on the Pedigree Database from Australia also had a Panda pup. There was no question about it - like Franka, it, too, was purebred, and there was no possibility of an outside non-GSD having gotten to the female.

I think the mutation that causes this must be more common than we realize. Other people said they'd heard of GSDs with Panda markings. But most GSD owners don't celebrate having an off-colour dog. They spay/neuter it and sell it to a pet home. Back in the bad old days these pups would have been killed. 

Franka's genetics have been researched, and it is a dominant gene that causes the colouration. Now, here's the really BIG thing that bothers me about turning Pandas into a new type of GSD.

The homozygous form of the Panda gene is lethal. There has never been a Panda produced that is genetically pure Panda. If you cross Panda X Panda, half the offspring will die as embryos. Actually, no one knows for sure what happens in the womb to a Panda X Panda. Does the fertilized egg die immediately? Or does it reach a certain stage, then stop developing? No one knows. All we know is that genetic testing shows all the Pandas out there only have only one copy of the mutated gene.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

part of the controversy is that there are so MANY people selling Pandas. I don't think that it happens more than we realize because it was completely 100% unheard of until Franka and then POOF!! everyone in the world has them "pop up" Believe me, there would have at least been muttering about them and there is no way that it had NEVER happened to be in a BYB litter before Franka came about. 
Which brings us to controversy #2 - the breeder swore on a stack of 10,000 bibles that the dog would never be bred. "I'm doing all of this genetic testing to find the source of the color and to prove that he is pure GSD. we should know what happened genetically" all of which is true because, hey SCIENCE! But then he was bred. It left a bit of hard feelings in the breeding community because you'll never convince anyone that the change of heart was because Franka was a great dog and not because of $$

Which brings controversy #3 - even though it's been found that the gene is dominant, there are too many Pandas to have come from only 1 dog. Plus, unless there is something environmental that is causing this mutation there is no way that, out of the blue, it is appearing at that rate it is now. We literally went from 0 to 1 to hundreds of dogs scattered all over the country. 

Which is controversy#4 - most of the "Pandas" being bred and sold have no history of Panda heritage. Being dominant, they should have a Panda parent. Even if you buy into the spontaneous mutation theory, the majority of the Pandas being produced don't LOOK like GSDs. They do however look a LOT like other breeds that have that coloration such as Cattle Dogs. Their basic body structure doesn't fit the GSD.

So, to answer the original question, the controversy has nothing to do with the color but with the backstory and what is actually being produced. Except that since it really doesn't fit the standard, purposefully producing it is always going to be looked down upon.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, will this be your first GSD then?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Also, did the trainer tell you to find your own breeder or did they direct you to the breeder with the panda?


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Xenobiarose said:


> He has had the best luck with GSDs and Poodles. He did say Holden's and labs work good to but I refuse to have a golden in my home. Far to many bad experiences with them and not a fan of labs. I have had good experiences with GSDs and have helped my husbands aunt train hers.


Heard that! The only reason I did not get a fully trained dog is because they only placed Labs, Goldens, and the "doodle" varieties of those dogs. The lady told me well if you're that choosy I guess your need isn't that great. The other thing I did not like is you never own the dog, you have to submit to visits from the agency, and they kind of expect you to give the dog back (where they will rehome it in a non working home) and just get a new one when the one you have is past working age.

No, nope.

So this is often why people train their own privately. And why people who train privately are very guarded and borderline hostile about the topic- it will only take a few bad apples. 

With my last that I tried to do SD with - I graciously dropped out. Was he public access worthy? Yes. But when asked the legal question of "what tasks does he perform" I'd have to lie because the answer was nuttin useful. lol I wasn't willing to lie. Firstly, because it is wrong. Secondly, my kids would know it. 

I'd say hang out here, and grow a thick skin. The advice may be strongly worded, and the critiquing won't be feelings sparing..but at least you will know where it is coming from. Trainers get paid to make service dogs, nobody here is getting paid to be honest 

Just curious, what exact tasks would you like this dog to learn to do?

My son has seizures too. If they go longer than 3 minutes we have a problem and have to call 911 after delivering rescue Valium (rectal syringe). He is never alone when awake, but he had one in his sleep and the dogs reacted which brought it to my attention. If it becomes a regular and consistent thing(the alerting), I will be happy. Personally I don't need a service dog anymore (son use to be a runner and escape artist)..but it would be nice to have an extra layer of comfort knowing they will whine and bark. We never go anywhere overnight where the dogs cant go too so no true need for a full SD , so I will limit my public behavior training to allowed places. Chain pet stores, Lowes, Home Depot..plenty of good places.


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

How do I add a photo??



CometDog said:


> Heard that! The only reason I did not get a fully trained dog is because they only placed Labs, Goldens, and the "doodle" varieties of those dogs. The lady told me well if you're that choosy I guess your need isn't that great. The other thing I did not like is you never own the dog, you have to submit to visits from the agency, and they kind of expect you to give the dog back (where they will rehome it in a non working home) and just get a new one when the one you have is past working age.
> 
> No, nope.
> 
> ...


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

My son is 13 in April and needs some freedom. I want it to bark in alert to bring attention to him seizing, roll him into his side, support him so he does not roll back over, lick him as he is starting to come out of the seizure to help bring him tooo and to give him comfort after the seizure. Possibly to help keep him steady if he needs to walk after a seizure. We have to use diastat rectal meds. 
For me after the breed preference came after me getting part of my nose taken off by a golden and a few going after my hubs when he was a trash man. He only had issues with goldens and one pit. 



CometDog said:


> Heard that! The only reason I did not get a fully trained dog is because they only placed Labs, Goldens, and the "doodle" varieties of those dogs. The lady told me well if you're that choosy I guess your need isn't that great. The other thing I did not like is you never own the dog, you have to submit to visits from the agency, and they kind of expect you to give the dog back (where they will rehome it in a non working home) and just get a new one when the one you have is past working age.
> 
> No, nope.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

CometDog, that is EXACTLY why I trained my own hearing ear dog! 

After my husband passed away, I quickly became aware of how much I was missing due to my hearing loss. I was missing phone calls, people at the door, and could no longer hear the alarm clock. Unfortunately, a hearing ear dog provided by the Lions Club was out of the question, because I had a 14 year old GSD and was told I'd have to get rid of her.

Riiight! Why not ask me to give up my firstborn instead? What happened to people who believe a dog or other pet is for life? :rolleyes2:

So, when I acquired a rescue GSD, I decided to see if he could be trained for the tasks I needed. I got lucky, incredibly lucky! He was a dog that was more focused on sound than scent, and was also a very, very fast learner. Show him something twice, or three times, and he had it down pat.

I trained him for the smoke alarm, door, alarm clock and phone. I also gave him public access training as per. the A.D.I. standards. 

Here's how good he was...Shortly after I finished his training, I took him to Ad Astra, Toronto's yearly SciFi/Fantasy writer's conference. Towards the end of the day, we were in the con suite, and the rug was just COVERED with potato chip crumbs and other debris from people's snacks. When he started to sniff them I told him "Leave it!", and he put his head down on his paws, and totally ignored the crumbs for the rest of the time we were there.

He also very likely saved my life that weekend, when I fell into a fence post hole while walking him late at night, and needed his help to get out.

He was an incredible dog, and I miss him dearly now that he's gone.


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

As far as owning yes but I helped train my husbands aunts GSD and have helped take care of a few.




Thecowboysgirl said:


> OP, will this be your first GSD then?


----------



## Xenobiarose (Dec 13, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Also, did the trainer tell you to find your own breeder or did they direct you to the breeder with the panda?




He said I could do ether. The breeder he recomended was far to expensive for me. The breeder I found was recomended by a service dog group I belong to by a few people who got dogs from her. She is also working with me on the price and taking payments.


----------

