# clicker trainers - share your success stories?



## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Hi folks,

I jumped onto the Clcker Training Wagon a couple of days ago. I've heard many good things about it so crossing my fingers it works for my dogs. My two dogs each have their own special issues that I'm needing to work on, but both have what is believed to be low esteem/confidence issues which have manifested in different ways in each dog. 

The book that came with my kit from clickertraining.com makes it sound almost like overnight success is possible (of course that's dog-dependant). I'm skeptical on that and want to be realistic. Not saying it's not possible, not saying the book writers are saying things that will sell their product. I *am* actually looking forward to doing this. But facing facts, you can put whatever you want to in a book or on a web site, doesn't make it true. (Please don't shoot me, I have a suspicious nature.)

I'm not asking for a sales pitch or to be sold on the product, I'm looking for some honest input from those that have used it. I would love to hear your own personal favorite success story involving your own dog(s) once clicker training was introduced. 

I can see where clicking would be a great success with young puppies. I'm more interested in stories that include dogs that had some bad habits and esteem/confidence issues that you were able to break or change using clicker training because this is what I have to do. If you would, it would be helpful to know the average time frame it took you to turn bad habits around. For both me and my dogs, I need to deal in reality. Thanks!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Clicking really takes YOU out of the picture-- your emotions, expectations, your stress, and lets the dog just concentrate on the tasks at hand: sit, down, focus on you, etc. I have found clicker training gets an anxious dog a lot more relaxed. Plus, clicker training can make a dog think "Oh, clicking! Well, that means we're working here, even at the vets or train station-- so I'd better watch for that next command!" "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons is a good book. Tasks and behaviors you clicker train doesn't need to be clickered forever, either-- it becomes a happy, learned pattern.

The negative is: Pushy, dominant, bossy type dogs can turn clickertraining around. They see this backwards: THEY become the well-fed boss, and _you the obedient 2-legged foodbowl that supplies them ON DEMAND_. You do get the behaviors you want-- but the dog's demeanor changes, they become pushy-er, and angry-pushy-greedy-piggy... _even if you withhold the treat until they take it "nicely."_ These dogs may even "defend" their obedient 2-legged foodbowl from other dogs on walks. Food-training can change everything for a truly pushy dog, *even with NILIF in daily living*, some dogs do not respond well to clicker-training.

I have an *"Oinking Overlord."*







I love him to pieces! I DO use clicker at times-- but not often.

For relatively mild-mannered dogs, I LOVE the results I see with clicker training,







but like each method out there, it is NOT for every dog.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

We started clicker training with last week (when he was 8 weeks), so I can only speak from the experience of a week's worth of training.

It was a miracle for us when we started using it! 

The main thing it gave us was the language to speak to our puppy!

When I clicked for the first time on him releasing my hand on my "ipe", he looked at me with estanishment as in "So you liked THAT?"

Even after this one day there was a huge difference and every day makes it better!

For instance, today, I was training giving bits of roast beef. Xargos was in down -- the kitties came running for their bits of meat too. I was treating the three of them, and clicking Xargos on staying down and relaxed. He stayed down all the time and I can see he really understood that that was what I liked!

Regarding the treats, I already skip treats for some behaviour, in particular I have to when I don't have them with me : ) That is a very important part of clicker training -- random treating once you got the behaviour...

I think clicker training does miracle for giving you a "handle" both you and your dog can latch on to undertand each other!

Shaping is another very interesting part of it -- it's fun to see Xargos trying to figure things out -- so joyful and delightful and meaningful for you both!

Another great book is "Don't shoot the dog" by Karen Pryor -- highly recommend to get the theory, the techniques and practical examples ...

All the best!

Tanya


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## rbush (Oct 25, 2006)

I love clicker training and the theory behind it. 

However, I have noticed that my two dogs respond very differently. My cocker, who I've always pegged as a little dim, proved me wrong. She just needed the right motivation and she is super smart. She has learned all sorts of tricks and seems to really enjoy work time. 

I don't think its that my GSD doesn't respond well to clicker training, its that I think I'm not smart enough/quick enough to shape her behaviors. She offers behaviors and is like "Is this right?" "How about this?" She just kind of spazzes out and then she's over it. She's not very forgiving and food isn't a huge motivator. Like I said, I'm sure its me and my timing, etc. However, with her I have found that doing a combination of different techniques and mostly just a "good" work better for her. Too much fuss from me tends to be really more stimulation than she can handle. She seems to get into work mode and we get mentally in synch if I just give her a command and then acknowlege with a "good."


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I don't use an actual clicker much, but I use the concepts behind clicker training all the time. I mark a behavior I like (for me, that means I say "YESSS!!" exactly when my dog does the behavior) and then I follow that with a reward. I use negative punishment (for example, withholding attention when my dog is doing something I don't like) and I leave it up to my dogs to figure out what I want most of the time.

It's been extremely effective on all the dogs I've used it on. I even had the opportunity to do some training with a full-blooded wolf and it worked well. I've used it on cats and horses, too, always with good results.

Developing the proper timing is important for the human so that the right behaviors are marked. For instance, my youngest shepherd is very vocal and when we're working on heeling, she has a tendency to bark often. So I have to really try to mark her behavior BETWEEN barks so that she doesn't think I'm rewarding her for barking. She's a bit of a challenge but she has learned attention through positive reinforcement and will sit and stare at me even if I hold treats in my open hands alongside either side of her face. She learned quickly (as most do) that the only way to receive the reward is to offer the correct behavior. 

As far as success stories go - my youngest chow earned her RN, RA, RE and CD all before the age of three and she was trained almost entirely with the clicker-training concepts. She was in the ring 13 times, had 12 qualifying scores and the only time we didn't qualify was the time she peed in the ring (automatic disqualification). In Excellent Rally, she was the dog that everyone ooh'd and aahh'd over when she did her "three steps back" exercise. The judges commented on it both right after she finished her exercises and again when giving out the ribbons. This was trained entirely off-leash and with positive reinforcement. You know you're doing something right when the border collie and golden retriever people are coming over to ask you how you trained your chow! *L*

I highly recommend sticking with clicker training or at least the clicker training style. You build happy enthusiasm and it's FUN for both human and dog. If you feel you need to add in corrections, you can do that later for specific problems. In the meantime, your dog is learning to trust you because you're training with rewards instead of corrections.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Great idea for a thread! I have a great success story with a reactive dog aggressive American Bulldog named Jasmine.
Jasmine came to the dog daycare I used to work at. When I started there she had already been attending daycare for a little while. The owners are not particularly dog savvy and had a few incidents with her going after other dogs, but had been able to keep anything from happening. Then one day one of the owners was with the dogs and Jasmine went after a high stress aussie mix that barked constantly. (this dog should not have been in the group to start with because she stressed all the dogs but this is another story) Jasmine got a hold of her and there were a couple scratches in result. Now the owner was afraid of Jasmine and kept her seperated from all the dogs ("time out" as they called it but she never came back from that time out) 
Jasmine became full blown reactive at this point, going after dogs and "sharking" them as I called it. Going after them from the sides and smelling them aggressively to the point of lifting them off the ground. Obviously being very rude and pushy, which most dogs would not tolerate and any reaction from another dog would set her into a frenzy.
This was about the time I started there. I ended up talking to the owner about training and her dogs, and she told me that she brought Jasmine there particularly because she had these issues. Well of course that was not a good idea, especially with inexperienced dog people running the place, but she didn't know that. So she hired me to start doing one-on-one lessons and working with Jasmine at the daycare.
I started by introducing her to clicker with the "watch" command away from other dogs. We did sessions at their home and at the dog daycare when no other dogs were present. We also worked on walking with a loose leash, and all the basic commands. We really built the watch command to use around other dogs. 
When she came to daycare one day at the start of training, I was not there that day and the owner felt bad that Jasmine was not in the group, and "Ceasar always puts them back in the group" in her words (both owners thought they knew all about dogs because they watched Ceasar Millan on TV, scary I know!)







and a dog that was very reactive and beta, challenged her and he ended up with multiple puncture wounds from Jasmine that resulted in multiple staples, luckily he had a very understanding owner (although I am not sure she should have been).








This set her back to square one. So I started intensely working with her at daycare. First her owner bought a gentle leader for Jasmine. We found this had a strong self controlling effect on her and was very helpful. We never had to put any pressure on the leash she would respond to verbal commands very quickly with the gentle leader. I started with her being in a seperate area and clicking and treating for eye contact and basic commands while other dogs were in view. I would often randomly approach her during the day when she was quiet and calm and click/treat her.
Eventually I started bringing her out next to the pen where the dogs were and practicing her commands. She did excellent. Eventually she could sit next to the fence with other dogs approaching while staying under her threshold. 
Next I brought her into an adjoining pen, again with the gentle leader and clicker, practicing commands, and eye contact. My goal was to get her to lay down as much as possible and stay there calmly in all areas.
From there I left her in the pen with the leash on and went into the pen with the other dogs. I would click and treat her from that pen, again giving her commands. She would often lay down and relax and I would give her a "jackpot" for that. 
Sometimes the dogs would start playing and getting a little rough and this would start to get her riled up so I would bring her back to a down-stay, until she was calm and then end the session. I always kept her under her threshold and she never charged the fence/barked/or charged a dog.
Lastly, I took her into the large pen with certain dogs I knew were stable and not reactive. She did excellent.
Eventually she was dragging the leash, being calm, and actually interacting with these dogs! 
From this point I worked with her owner at their home doing the same thing but in their neighborhood. They wanted to take Jasmine and their other non-aggressive AB on the golf cart for their nightly ride to the beach. But Jasmine was reactive and fight to jump off, especially after bikes, cars, and other dogs. Using the clicker with both Jasmine and Mia, her sister, they could take both for their nightly ride. 
They also had a neighbor dog, a older lab, that barked all day long. Jasmine would run straight for her as soon as she got outside charging and jumping on the fence and barking. Again, we used the clicker, using her solid commands to distract her, and even did some clicker with the neighbor dog. Everytime Jasmine returned to us when approaching the fence (before she would bark/charge) we would click and treat. It worked like a charm and I am happy to say Jasmine has not returned to that behavior at all. They treats we used for them were Yummy Chummies, and hot dogs.
This was over approx. a 6 month period.

Sorry so long, but I think this is a great example of how effective the clicker can be. Jasmine was triggered by barking dogs, other dogs playing or running, and other fast moving objects like bikes.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

A little history on Risa first.







I got her from a shelter when she was 2.5 years old. She was very shy and scared of pretty much everything. This dog had no confidence at all and no obedience training. I started clicker training with her about 4 months after bringing her home after trying more traditional methods with her on my own. My methods were not too successful.

I wasn't sold on clicker training at the start. But that was because I didn't understand it at the time. The first day of class Risa wouldn't let anyone (or anydog) within 6-8 feet of her. Not even the trainer could approach her without her running away. It did not take long for the clicker to 'click' with Risa. Her confidence increased in classes and she soon became very comfortable there. She really started to shine and show off her intelligence by learning a lot of new behaviors. Shaping became one of her favorite tasks. We kept taking obedience classes with the same trainer for about 1.5 years. We did some agility, rally, canine freestyle, general obedience, etc.

We moved and I signed us up for an agility class. New location + new classroom + new trainer = a very scared Risa. As soon as the instructor closed the door to the room, Risa panicked. She paced and panted. When it came time for us to work on some agility exercises, I didn't expect much from her. She was very focused on everything else that was going on which didn't surprise me. As she attempted the equipment, she got a click/treat. And the lightbulb turned on. "This is just that clicker thing!" Though she was still worried, she was much calmer because she knew what was expected of her. This wasn't something scary--it was the same thing she already understood. 

So, I can say from firsthand experience, that clicker training can really help a dog gain confidence. Just the smile on their face when they realize "THIS is what my human wants!" is totally worth it. When they understand that what they do is important and matters, they really develop into more confident dogs.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Like the OP, I am new to clicker training. I like the idea of this thread and hope it grows to include some good "how to" stories and examples. I am reading Karen Pryor's book (or pamphlet, as might be appropriate) and have gotten my GSD to understand that the click is a very good thing and that he will get a reward when he hears it.

Beyond that, I haven't accomplished much other than to dole out a lot of treats. I have clicked for a good 'sit' and a good 'down' - both commands he already knew. I haven't managed to teach anything new yet - since the core of clicker training seems to be waiting for the desired action/behavior and then rewarding it. So I would enjoy reading how others progress through the stages of training and how to best set up situations for success and specifically desired behavior.

We are almost always trying to "correct" undesirable behavior... leave it... off... away from the table... quit putting your slobbery ball in my lap.... stop barking.... please, for the love of God, STOP BARKING!, etc. My brain is having a hard time making the jump from "stop that or I will beat the crap out of you" to "hey, way to not do that... good job!". That is not to imply that I beat my dog, nor that I don't understand positive vs. negative training. I tried not using words, but how can I click-reward him for obeying a "leave it" unless I say "leave it"? Also, I don't want to watch him shred a book or something while I wait for him to get bored and stop, so that I can click-reward. That does not seem like teaching him anything positive.

So, I struggle as a noob to this, and hope to "get it" myself so that I can make some progress. I will say that the clicker is a good tool that immediately grabs his attention every time. But now I feel like I have to have a clicker and treats with me constantly.


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm very, very new to clicker-training, too, and I know that more experienced users will chime in with more info, but here are some thoughts from another newbie:



> Quote:
> We are almost always trying to "correct" undesirable behavior... leave it... off... away from the table... quit putting your slobbery ball in my lap.... stop barking.... please, for the love of God, STOP BARKING!, etc.


I asked a very similar question about this (specifically, stopping Charlie's jumping up habit - he recently discovered that he's big enough to jump up on the countertops!). While clicker-training isn't for corrections, if you really watch your dog, you'll probably be able to derail him *before* he does the behavior you don't want. For example, with the jumping. When I'm cooking (or working, he likes to jump up on the table, while I'm typing - I guess to make sure I'm spelling everything correctly, lol) I keep the clicker around my wrist and a little dish of good food treats - cheese bits, bacon... something yummy - on the counter. When I notice he's about to jump up, I say "Charlie, sit!" If he's sitting, he obviously can't be jumping - so that's when I click and treat. After an evening of making him sit (rather than jump) I moved on to sit, then down. (Click-treating all the way.) Then I increased the amount of time he stayed in a down-stay before the click/treat. We've now moved on to variable rewards - he's not getting treated for every click any more. In less than a week, I've seen a big improvement in Charlie. Of course this behavior is not "perfect" yet, but we are talking about a 7-month-old "adolescent" puppy who is still learning - and he's doing great!







So that is one suggestion I have - instead of correcting him, use the clicker to teach him new behaviors.

For some of the other things you listed, you could teach him new behaviors to do instead - if you don't want the ball in your lap, you could teach your dog to put it away in a toy box; if you want him away from the table, you could teach him "place" by clicking and rewarding him when he's on his dog bed or another place and then gradually adding the "place" command...

One thing I like about clicker-training is that it seems to take a little more patience from us people - not to mention *really* watching our dogs, but it also seems to really sink in with our dogs. This morning, while cooking breakfast, I *twice* saw Charlie get in his "I'm gonna pounce" stance and then he paused, and sat on his own. I was SO proud - so proud! No corrections needed - he got it! (OK, he did jump up once when I finished the bacon and set it on its plate. I directed him right back down in a sit. We're learning!)



> Quote:I tried not using words, but how can I click-reward him for obeying a "leave it" unless I say "leave it"?


Check out this video! This is how I started with the clicker!









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i-L3-gqWic

This is a behavior that I really should be proofing every day, in every room, with every possible item, so that gives me some ideas for things to do with Charlie this evening! Probably all puppy owners should! It amazes me that Charlie finds such enjoyment and pleasure in playing with such a wide variety of household items.











> Quote: Also, I don't want to watch him shred a book or something while I wait for him to get bored and stop, so that I can click-reward. That does not seem like teaching him anything positive.


I don't think that clicker-training experts would recommend that at all! What about, instead, teaching him "drop it?" If you have your treats so that you can click-treat, you probably don't need to start with words - just walk over with your treat and click the moment he drops the item. Maybe start with a ball so that he learns the behavior, and then after you know he has it, you can add the command word - that way you can tell him "drop it" when he picks up your book (with your treat to click/reward him when he listens) and he'll know what you are saying.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

rainydaygoods - thanks for the lengthy and great post. GSD is just 13 months - so I can verify that you can make it through 7 months and beyond... despite occasional indications otherwise.

"drop" and "leave it" are commands he knows. I will be working to strengthen and reinforce them with the clicker - but I suppose where I begin to question the method and philosophy is when the dog makes the decision to disobey. I know I'll take flack for this, as most folks here seem to feel that there is no place in training for correction - but I feel there has to be a "no", and that as with a child, that "no" must have the meaning of consequence. Judging from the behaviour of children in public these days, no doubt many will disagree with this too.

My GSD is a very hard dog. There are times that he simply defies me, and it has nothing to do with his knowledge of the expectation or the reward he will forego. 

I think clicker training is a great tool. But in the toolbox, one must have more than one tool. I have never seen a mother dog with a clicker...


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

With clicker training, it's all about setting them up to do the right thing so you can reward it. Instead of waiting for them to do it wrong and punishing them.









Here's an example from my dog. Granted, we've been using clicker training for over 2 years. One of the things Risa knows is to not take things from me without permission (most of the time, I could be more dilligent about it but I'm not). So if she wants a treat from my hand, food from my plate, or a toy I'm holding; she will give me eye contact. It's a way of her asking for permission "Can I have that, please?" If I feel like giving it to her, I tell her "Take it." Otherwise, it's mine and she knows it.

To teach this, we started with a treat in my hand. If she tried to take it, I pulled it away. I repeated this until she stopped trying to take it when I presented it to her. The second she said (with her body/eyes) "Okay, I don't want it" I click/treated her. With many repetitions, she realized the best way to get the food she wanted was to ignore it. Once your dog understands this concept, you can progress to adding in a verbal cue such as "Leave it." There is no point in adding in a verbal BEFORE your dog is doing what you want them to. If you do, that cue means whatever the dog is doing at that moment--not what you are hoping they will do.

To get eye contact as a way to ask permission, you do similar to what I stated above. Basically you take a treat and hold it out to your side at shoulder height. (If you have a jumper, you may wish to stand on their leash.) And you wait. The instant they make eye contact (or at least look at your face), you click and give them the treat. Repeat. As time goes on, you can increase the time you expect them to look at you as well as decrease the distance of the treat from their nose. I can put a treat right in front of Risa's nose and she will look me in the eyes to get permission to eat it.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

so, what do you clicker experienced folks do for things like stealing? My GSD loves to steal paper and eat it... for example


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

When you have a situation like: 



> Quote:so, what do you clicker experienced folks do for things like stealing? My GSD loves to steal paper and eat it... for example


It's a great example of the difference with clicker training. Because we have to keep in mind this: 



> Quote: With clicker training, it's all about setting them up to do the right thing so you can reward it. Instead of waiting for them to do it wrong and punishing them.


So teaching a good thing like 'leave it' will work. And if you aren't in the room/house when this happens, I'd say close doors and manage the environment to break a bad habit.

And exercise, lots more exercise. With dog classes. Fun, happy dog classes!


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

MaggieRoseLee - I do get it, really. My major philosophy is also positive training and reinforcement and setup for success. I guess where I become totally confused is in this question: Do you EVER scold your dog? Do you ever correct? I can't get my head around this.

I understand (only too well) the need for exercise, and most days that's not a problem. Some days it is. It doesn't matter how tired he was *yesterday*.... 
I also understand and agree about removing temptations and opportunities for failure - but in real life, this is never 100% possible. Nor is it productive in the long run. I can trust my dog not to chew a magazine if he is locked in his crate too... but that's not what I'm after.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Ideally no, we would not scold our dogs. Punishment of any type has fallout.







Your best bet it to manage the environment and teach a really good 'release' command for instances when he gets ahold of paper.

I'm only human and I sometimes forget that it's better to tell Risa what TO DO instead of just telling her not to do that. And I also fall victim to saying "Eh eh!" or "No." It happens. It may not be ideal but it is sometimes necessary.

I believe it was Cassidy'sMom here on the board who attended a seminar with Suzanne Clothier who dealt with this issue. She had a purely positive trainer 'train' her to do something. Suzanne got up and walked out of the room. The 'trainer' was annoyed but she replied "Well, you didn't tell me not to." It's all about communication, of course. I can be tough to tell your dog what TO DO instead of what they are doing (which is undesireable). It's human nature to say "Eh eh!" instead of "Leave it." But "Leave it" gives far more information to the dog and is not punitive.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Yeah, I understand. I'm never going to abandon corrections. Though I sincerely hope to minimize them, I am realistic enough to know they will never be eliminated.

Not until I see a nature show on Discovery where the narrator says "and we can tell that he is the Alpha Wolf because he is the one with the clicker."


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Sure, wolves don't use clickers. But they don't use prong collars, head halters, or squirt bottles either. Plus I've never seen an alpha wolf asking his followers for long heel patterns, sit/stays, or to stay off the sofa. Not to mention we humans don't have the quick reflexes dogs/wolves do to deliver a truly effective correction. Whether using a verbal, a collar pop, or Cesar's neck poke.

My dog knows I'm not another dog (or a wolf) and she lives in a human-ruled world. Whereas many of her natural behaviors are fine among other canines, they're just not acceptable in the world she lives in. So I have no real issue using an 'unnatural' tool (like the clicker) to help her adjust to the human world. The clicker facilitates our communication since we do not speak the same language. It tells her that what I clicked for is what I wanted. There is no confusion or miscommunication. It's like a human-to-dog translator.









Some things I do with her I try to communicate in a more canine form. She knows how to enter and leave my space by me using canine terms and body movement. It wasn't taught with a clicker (though treats were involved).

If you're really interested in a more natural form of dog training, I'd look into drive training. It utilizes a dog's prey drive and natural instincts to train 'unnatural' behaviors. I've used a little bit of it in my training of Risa as well.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:Ideally no, we would not scold our dogs. Punishment of any type has fallout. Your best bet it to manage the environment and teach a really good 'release' command for instances when he gets ahold of paper.


Ideally..................... 

I always start the teaching with the positive training, but as we progress I also use the prong collar if needed for attention (and to stop pulling when we are just walking). I've found that if I can break things down and train well using the positive methods, it really cuts back on ever even having to correct. Cause my dogs are really listening, loving to learn and wanting to progress to new stuff as much as I do. 

Have to say, the real deal breakers for my 'positive' training is after I've done all the ++++ and I may still have issues with the off leash 'come' or 'leave it'. Since my dogs can eat bad stuff when out hiking (well, good to them but not their health! and snakes/porcupines are in the mix) I need a 100% 'leave it'. Same for them chasing and running after something and off so I need a 100% 'come'. Both I've only gotten using the e-collar. But since they are so good, though I have the collars on them and turned on, I rarely have to activate their collars with the remote.

So see, I'm not all positive and clicker. I do what I have to. Just always START with the positive.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Going back to the original topic of clicker success stories, I see that the poster asked specifically about using the clicker with dogs that have established problems.

I've used the clicker method successfully with reactive dogs by going through desensitization exercises with them. This is pretty much 100% positive, at least initially. When you have a dog that is reactive to something - other dogs, people, noises, etc. - you first have to find their "comfort level". This is the point where the person/dog/noise can happen and the dog stays non-reactive. For a dog-aggressive dog, the other dog may need to be two blocks down the road or even farther - maybe just within eyesight. Same with people-aggressive dogs. And noise sensitive dogs will have a level where they notice a noise without acting fearful. These are the "comfort levels" and that's where you need to start with the clicker training.

Once you establish how close you can be to the problem before your dog is reactive, you start at that point. Let's talk about the people aggression. The person shows up at the distance you've established and your dog sees him but doesn't react. THAT'S when you click and reward. You want your dog to learn that seeing the person and not reacting is going to be rewarded. 

And then you gradually - over a period of weeks, even months - move closer to the person or dog or make the sound louder. At each level, if your dog reacts, then you've made too big of a transition or too quickly and you need to go back a step. The idea is to build a good solid base of confident behavior and then continue to build on that solid base. 

If you take your time, your dog will learn that the fear is unnecessary and will learn confidence and to be non-reactive. Now, you may need to do this training from the beginning in numerous places, with different dogs/people/noises (depending on your particular dog) until your dog generalizes it and realizes that regardless of where/who, there's no need to be frightened. It's NOT a quick-fix, but it's a fix that starts from the very core of who your dog is and WHY he's afraid, and it brings a true confidence.

I had a GSD pup once who was SO frightened of people. I got her at five months old and I don't know exactly why she was so scared, other than I knew she hadn't had much socialization. And using positive reinforcement, rewarding for EVERY confident move, setting her up to succeed instead of trying to force her, worked so well that she would willingly run to another person to be petted. Now, I wouldn't want all of my dogs to just run to strangers, but Tori needed that level of confidence to be built up. It took a long time to get through her fears. I could have just forced her to face them, make her "deal with it" and ignored the fact that she was afraid. I've seen people do that, and the dogs put on a facade of bravery sometimes. But underneath they're still afraid, still confused. By addressing their fear and confusion, showing them that there's no need to be that way, you can rehabilitate most dogs to where they function well in today's society.

The problem with most humans is that they're impatient. The thought of taking years (which is what I did with Tori) to build up a dog's confidence is just unfathomable to many people. But it takes years to train a dog to competition behaviors, and people are willing to do that because they see that as being more rewarding to THEM (the dog doesn't necessarily find it rewarding). Personally I think that if someone takes a fearful dog and brings it out of that fear and into a confident state of mind, that's worth more than ANY reward, ribbon, title or certificate of honor. So it's worth taking the time to build confidence instead of trying to force a fearful dog into dealing with their fears (which is what people do when they use corrections on a fear-aggressive animal). 

And then there's the little fluffy dog whose owner came to me because it wouldn't allow her to put a collar or leash on it. This dog was just being a little brat - different from a fear behavior dog. But I still used a lot of positive reinforcement. The difference is that I pushed the dog a bit - put him in an ex-pen and followed him around, draping the leash over his body and ignoring the growling/snarling act. But as soon as the dog accepted the leash touching him without reacting, I marked that behavior and praised and rewarded with treats. It didn't take long for him to realize that allowing the leash to touch him was a GOOD thing and that growling/snarling/snapping got him nowhere with me. And then I reached down and snapped the leash on him - to the complete astonishment of his owner, who hadn't been able to get a leash on him in weeks. It did take awhile for her to understand that she had to be more of a leader in order to get this strong-willed 10# furry brat to respond to her. While positive reinforcement was a huge part of what I had her doing with him, she also had to learn to not give in to him when he growled at her. He'd figured out who was boss, and it wasn't her! *L* But there was no need for punishment or correction, just stronger positive leadership.

Positive reinforcement - absolutely GREAT stuff, if people would just be patient and understanding instead of demanding.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> Ideally.....................
> 
> ...


At last a sane voice! Thanks for the experienced and practial point of view. My goal is to be able to accomplish what you have/do... and I always prefer to start with the positive and only correct when I know he fully understands what is being asked, and refuses to comply. 

Perfect real-world example: yesterday evening he snatched a glass ball ornament off the Christmas tree and had it in his mouth (in fact, I wasn't even sure what he had because it was fully inside his mouth). He would not drop it, would not leave it (too late for that anyway since he already has it and must first drop it in order to leave it), and decided to play "catch me if you can around the dining room table... haha". These are the times that he needs to know that he MUST drop and leave an item when commanded to do so. Obviously we're not there yet... but waiting nicely for him to comply with a treat and clicker is not always going to be effective. Had he bitten down just a little bit, he could have shredded the inside of his mouth with the razor sharp thin glass, not to mention the hanging hook athat was still attached.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoSure, wolves don't use clickers. But they don't use prong collars, head halters, or squirt bottles either. Plus I've never seen an alpha wolf asking his followers for long heel patterns, sit/stays, or to stay off the sofa.


Of course... but are you suggesting that an Alpha wolf or litter mother does not use negative reinforcement training? Far from it. Do you know why the pack respects the Alpha and bows to his will? Because they know he will rip out their throat if they don't. Once that is established, he need never carry it out... but he also never lets them forget that he might...


Sorry... we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread about clicker training success stories... already in progress....


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

No, I am not. Of course they use adversives. But the wolf still has the advantage of being able to communicate with other wolves using the same language. I do not.  

And, as I also stated, I do use adversives/corrections with my dog. I try not to. But there are times when I find it necessary. I am not sure it is possible to use 100% positive training with dogs, kids, or other adults. It is VERY difficult to do effectively. I know a fair number of trainers who advocate 100% positive methods but I find it near impossible to do myself. Like I said, it is 'ideal' but not always feasible.

From what I know about wolves, it's not fear of the alpha that makes them comply. Any wolf is capable of tearing another wolf's throat out, but they don't. All of their 'battles' are mock battles where, for the most part, no one gets hurt. The leader is respected because he is fair and just. Not because he's capable of violence.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My most recent success marker training - taught my puppy to reliably (and with vocal commands, no luring, baiting with treats, or hand signals) sit, platz, speak, come, kennel, and shake by the time he was 14 weeks old. Now he is 16 weeks and well on his way learning "come along" (loose leash walk) and stay. Using marker training with him it really only took one or two sessions for him to catch on to a new command, then a few more sessions to wean him off any baiting or luring and proof it in new environments like at the pet store.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> ...



LedZep, 

(getting off topic of example stories) Have you tried keeping a leash on him in the house attached to you? I usually recommend this to clients that are having a hard time and call it an 'imbilical cord' . This usually lasts at least a week, depending on their schedule at home and tenacity. From there the dog drags the leash so he can still be stopped from playing the keep away game, or bolting out the door. 
So during that first week that you have your dog on the imbilical cord he is either with you, in his crate, or outside while supervised. I recommend they get as much exercise possible doing something like fetch, search games, and walking incorporating training. During this time they are also learning to work NILIF into their lifestyle, as well as the clicker. 
This changes the dogs schedule, and is all about eliminating the opportunities to reinforce old habits, and will give you tons of click worthy behaviors. I think doing this kind of program can make it easier for us to see more opportunities to 'capture' or 'shape' behaviors, and clear up some of the confusion when it comes to relying on a negative command like 'no'. Some mention that they feel the have to have the clicker and treats on them at all times and become reliant on them, but it is important to learn to faze them out. I feel that this also applies to negative consequences, I have seen many dogs become reliant on jerks and no's to constantly correct them in a heel. What is the next step with a dog in this situation? Would some say that they aren't jerking hard enough? What does enough equate to? Enough pain is what comes to my mind. Again just from my experiences, and obviously not all positive trainers do things the same, nor do negative trainers.
'No' can work if your dog stops the behavior when you say it (which to me also entails some kind of consequence for them to understand why they should stop when you say no, like a buzz from an ecollar or a jerk on the collar, neither of which I am really into doing) but why not work other commands and behaviors to stop him and get twice the benefit?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LedZep, as far as him taking the ornament....when I am in the "positive" stage of a dog's training I'm also heavily relying on management. Meaning, the dog is ALWAYS setup for success. In your case that would mean a puppy simply does not have access to dangerous objects he should not have. For me this year, it means having baby gates all over my house and no Christmas decorations. You are right, in that case some correction or physical intervention was necessary for safety, but the key to staying positive would be to avoid a situation like that altogether. If your dog is even somewhat food motivated, typically offering a "trade" would be a positive way to get out of that situation. Grab a smelly treat and put it in front of the dog's nose. The ornament will be forgotten about instantly and the puppy should take the treat instead. The problem with the ornament situation is that the puppy does not inherently know that ornaments are off limits, so technically a correction is unfair. That's where management comes in.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfClicking really takes YOU out of the picture-- your emotions, expectations, your stress, and lets the dog just concentrate on the tasks at hand: sit, down, focus on you, etc. I have found clicker training gets an anxious dog a lot more relaxed. Plus, clicker training can make a dog think "Oh, clicking! Well, that means we're working here, even at the vets or train station-- so I'd better watch for that next command!" "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons is a good book. Tasks and behaviors you clicker train doesn't need to be clickered forever, either-- it becomes a happy, learned pattern.
> 
> The negative is: Pushy, dominant, bossy type dogs can turn clickertraining around. They see this backwards: THEY become the well-fed boss, and _you the obedient 2-legged foodbowl that supplies them ON DEMAND_. You do get the behaviors you want-- but the dog's demeanor changes, they become pushy-er, and angry-pushy-greedy-piggy... _even if you withhold the treat until they take it "nicely."_ These dogs may even "defend" their obedient 2-legged foodbowl from other dogs on walks. Food-training can change everything for a truly pushy dog, *even with NILIF in daily living*, some dogs do not respond well to clicker-training.
> 
> ...


I really don't have a training program for my dog, we just enter into negotiations which sometimes requires third party arbitration


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

> Quote: If your dog is even somewhat food motivated, typically offering a "trade" would be a positive way to get out of that situation.


This works really well for Charlie when he has a sock or paper towel or something. If I come up with a treat and tell him to "drop it," I have 100% success. 

Unfortunately last night on our walk I discovered that my delicious, homemade organic peanut butter doggie treats are, in his eyes, not a fair trade for a dead pigeon at all!!







There was nothing positive in that situation at all... at least not for me!


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

I certainly agree with trading food treats for off limit objects - certainly as a training method. However, eventually I expect my dog to "drop it" and "leave it" simply because I say so. I am aware this is not magic and takes a lot of training. These dogs are not dumb... they soon learn that if you trade them food for objects all the time, a great way to get a treat is to take something for which you will trade. Now you have taught your dog to steal objects and ransom them back to you.

I heavily reward "drop" and "leave it", because that is the behavior I desire.


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## rainydaygoods (Oct 13, 2008)

> Quote:However, eventually I expect my dog to "drop it" and "leave it" simply because I say so.


Oh, me too! I absolutely agree with this, 100%, and think it is very important! I can see how my last post was kind of unclear on that - was meant to be sort of lighthearted, but yes, you are right. I want Charlie to listen to *all *of my commands "because I say so" eventually - I will be frank, though - we're not there yet. 



> Quote: I am aware this is not magic and takes a lot of training. These dogs are not dumb... they soon learn that if you trade them food for objects all the time, a great way to get a treat is to take something for which you will trade.


Yep - unacceptable! You're right - the dogs are absolutely smart enough to figure this out! I've actually had some really good "drop it" and "leave it" behavior with Charlie over the past two days, so I'm very happy that we've been working pro-actively on this and I think the clicker training has really helped him "get it" and understand the exact behavior that I'm asking for. I literally did a fist-pump a minute ago when he started sniffing something tempting on my coffee table - I said "leave it!" and he just backed right off and came over and lay down beside me. Same thing earlier this morning when he started sniffing a sock - one of his favorite "toys."







I didn't have my clicker, or treats, but I didn't need them - he just left it alone because I told him to! 

He's been doing similarly well with "drop it" the past couple of days. I haven't tested him with a dead pigeon again,







but with a ball of my knitting yarn (sigh... missed his sniffing/investigations to ask him to "leave it" on that one), a paper towel (ditto), his ball, and his favorite frisbee - and of course our tug toy when we are playing - he has done GREAT!!

All of this has really made me know that the "leave it" and "drop it" I've been working with so actively since getting the clicker is SO worth it! I truly believe that those clicks the *moment* he drops things, and the *moment* he looks at me when I ask him to leave it, connected with him. He's an adolescent pup, though, so I'm quite sure that we're not "done" training with these commands!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

That's the thing though. That's what ALL of us want. A dog that does what we went when we ask. We just have different methods of achieving it.

Initially, you may need to trade up to get your dog to release the object. But, eventually, they learn what you want and that's what they do. I can get into a really involved game of tug with Risa and ask her "Give." And she will relinquish the toy. Even though continuing to tug is way more fun than stopping. Sometimes I reward her release by telling her she can take the toy again and play tug. Sometimes I will toss the toy. Other times, the game is over. But she still knows what I want and complies whether she is rewarded or not.

And yes, the smart ones can keep you on your toes when it comes to the leave it behavior. One time when we visited the vet's office, I asked Risa to 'leave it' when she kept sticking her nose in the trashcan in the exam room. When she complied, I gave her a treat. Eventually she decided that going to the trashcan was a good idea because then I'd ask her to come away from it and she'd get a treat. 

It may take a bit more work to train without adversives, but it can be done.


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