# 30 day Trial run with Grain-Free Kibble + RAW



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Okay, after much contemplation, research, budget checking, etc.... Mr. "Grain" supporter for my dogs is going to do a trial of grain-free kibble (Orijen Regional Red), Natures Variety RAW or DIY and canned grain-free. Obviously not all in one setting...but will break up the meals accordingly with most going to Orijen with a few meals in the week of DIY RAW or NV pre-made RAW. The canned they get everyday anyway so no biggie.

Why the experiment? Well, I want to see if there is a noticeable difference in my dogs. Anecdotal evidence already has shown some itching that Angeles started with the Pro Plan (second bag) on his butt was not an anal gland issue but an ingredient I'm thinking. His glands were fine. Why do I think that? Because as I added more grain-free canned and raw options to meals, his itching stopped. No more booty licking!









I do have some Holistic Selects Cans that do have oatmeal in them and I will continue those until they are done (so maybe not 100% grain-free in that respect). All Alpo cans are done but will not buy anymore at this time since they do contain soy flour. None of my dogs have any allergy to whats in the Holistic Selects and Angeles only gets 1/4 can per day anyway. Cotton gets a 1/4 can while Louis (the weenie dog) gets 1/2 a can. I have more Core grain-free so this shouldn't hurt the experiment.

So - December 23, 2009 - January 21, 2010 is my trial dates. I hope to see within that period of time in my dogs what all the fuss is about









and if I see that difference, well then I will throw up the white flag!








and go this route from here on out with my dogs.


----------



## EmilyK0429 (Dec 6, 2009)

I will be interested to hear what happens with your dogs. Please keep us updated on what happens. I am trying some Evo with my girl right now to see if we start doing better. We just started yesterday so I am hoping.


----------



## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Interesting thread. I am experimenting as well. Mine already get TOTW High Prairie so are already grain free, but I have definitely seen a difference in their poop since I started adding RMB's and MM's







I will def be following this thread to see what your results are!!


----------



## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Come to the "dark side", Angeles! LOL

good luck!


----------



## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

His glands were fine. Why do I think that? Because as I added more grain-free canned and raw options to meals said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif[/img]
> 
> So - December 23, 2009 - January 21, 2010 is my trial dates. I hope to see within that period of time in my dogs what all the fuss is about
> 
> ...


 One question, and I have no idea how we would ever know. Is he itching or does he like the taste







?


----------



## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I'm sure you'll see a difference!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@duramax - too funny!

@all - thanks for the replies. I will be keeping a daily blog of their journey and this experiment at http://www.vonlobos.com - or just see my signature line for Angeles' blog. I think they are a bit excited when they saw me bring the BIG bag of Orijen and the NV RAW bag of Bison and Rabbit from It's a Pets Life here in Plymouth, MN. They were sniffing up storm. Have to still run out to get the Turkey necks and such for Christmas dinner. This is going to be fun I think. I know they will enjoy it for sure!


----------



## lucymom (Jan 2, 2009)

I was lured gently over to the raw side around Thanksgiving by somebody who shall remain anonymous, but her screenname rhymes with PIGHTPELF and her dog's name ryhmes with FRIMM.

Zuzu has been on a full month and the proof is in the poop. Seriously, it's amazing, as I was told it would be. Very small, tidy and bouncy, indicating to me that the food she is taking in is being used far more efficiently than the pricey grain free Wellness Oceanfish kibble she was on. It is just very healthy looking poop, and I know that sounds silly, but it even smells different...healthier, earthier. Her coat is very shiny and she's all lean muscle, but she's 8 months and growing so I don't know if part of that is her puppy youthfulness. 

she is very enthused about her meals, even with her favorite kibble and canned, she would sometimes leave some. She licks her bowl clean and relishes the chance to tear up some chicken quarters.

It IS time consuming, when I get my orders of chicken quarters and muscle meat, I spent a couple of hours bagging up meals ready to eat---RMB (raw meaty bone) and some muscle meat (we've used chicken breast and beef heart, are about to add turkey hearts) and a bit of chicken liver, some veggies (or if I'm feeling lazy, organic veggie babyfood, just a spoonful or two) and a tablespoon full of plain yogurt. At mealtime, I add a few squirts of fish oil. She smells good, passes less gas and looks great.

I got a lot of info from Lauri's Raw Dog Ranch website and the raw threads here, as well as my supertopsecret source, listed above.

Aik's tranisition has been harder. He's 11 and kibble-fed for all that time. he LOVES the raw though and after adding some pumpkin to his and tinkering with the formula, his tummy acids seem to have caught up and he is digesting it well and moving towards poop nirvana as well. BIG bonus, he too is less gassy, and I can tell you that's HUGE. On a bad day, my house was a biohazard.

It took finding a wholesale meat source and figuring out the fastest, neatest meal prep, as the cleanup needs to be thorough and it can be a drag to hack up meat every day. I don't have a separate freezer, that is my dream present, and my Haagen Daz has disappeared in favor of bagged frozen spinach ( I learned that dogs can't digest many veggies unless they are blanched, pureed or frozen first) and enormous bags of meat. 

I would have tried the premade, but for two dogs, too expensive.

Keep us posted!. Happy poop to you!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you Jennifer! Sounds like an excellent transition for your dogs. I appreciate you sharing your experience with me (and others of course). I am in need of a freezer - well even a regular size refrigerator would be nice! Ours broke and so we have a small 4.4 cu frig / freezer....so the DIY part will almost have to be freshly picked up the day I feed them with very little storage for now. I guess that isn't too bad since most of the meals will be the Orijen for or pre-made RAW. I do like that when they eat the DIY they spend more time, keeps their mind busy and cleans their teeth. Plus - they are so ready to nap afterwards - at least mine are - they appear very satisfied and happy to have eaten. Saving up for a new refrigerator and a freezer so next year sometime I can do bulk orders if we end up going over to the "dark side" (made me chuckle Mike!). I've been taking baby steps along the way but woke up today and told myself - you just need to try it for good now and decided for yourself if Grain-Free and RAW is the way for me to go. Even if my dogs aren't allergic to certain grains it doesn't mean I have to include that in their diet....so this will be the test


----------



## Sheila (May 14, 2009)

I hope it goes well for you.
Not wanting to go off track, but how much more expensive does it work out per month to feed this way?


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Here are the raw numbers:
Orijen Regional Red $73 for 29.7 lb bag
NV Bison RAW $15.99 for 3 lb bag
NV Rabbit RAW $16.99 for 3 lb bag
CORE Canned $2.59 per can - 10% discount if bought in bulk

For my three dogs I am estimating with the Orijen Regional Red, NV Raw, Cans + some DIY RAW it will be between $150 and $200 per month. I will not know for sure how long the kibble is going to last yet (need to find out how many cups are in a bag). I do a can a day and that is $2.59 with a 10% discount if I buy in bulk. The NV RAW per week is $15 - $17. 
The Kibble is $73 and should last up to 2 months by feeding part RAW and DIY RAW. The pricing on DIY I haven't gotten all details on yet thus the guess of $150 - $200 per month.

Part of how I should be able to afford this is we are NOT renewing their insurance plans. They are going up with huge deductibles or pay more for low deductibles and quite frankly all the other plans seemed pretty similar now....so instead of paying out insurance + upfront costs to the vet, we are putting money back into our pocket (savings) and paying for some better foods to hopefully REDUCE future medical expenses. Not saying that is what will happen...but here is hoping! I mean I have to pay out of pocket first anyway so I'd rather just save the money and hope I have enough to cover an emergency....cause you still have to pay upfront!

For those that do the DIY they can provide better numbers - mine is just an experiment right now so things are bound to change - could go down, could go up or could be just right...will know more soon and will keep track of what I feed and the estimated costs on the blog.


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I was feeding Blue Buff kibble, a 30lb-ish bag was about $50. I was going through a bag and a half a month, so about $100 a month on kibble.

My last raw order was 40 lbs chick necks, 40 lbs chick backs, 30 lbs ground turkey, 10 lbs ground quail, 10 lbs raw tripe, 55lbs beef heart, 2lbs lamb organ mix, 3lbs beef kidney and 30lbs turkey necks. This will last me two months and cost me $193. So I come out about the same BUT I have so much more variety and I know exactly what they're eating and they are both happy and healthy.


----------



## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Very interesting topic for a thread/experiment/evaluation. Please keep us informed. 30 days is a fairly good compressed trial term but I would imagine to that it might take months to see some results.

I also use Pro Plan; I have used it because it is a trusted name and was recommended to me by a vet but since it was recommended to me the ingredients list seems to be continually using cheaper and inferior grains.

I am somewhat leery of switching to other brands because of some of the quality control issues like some of the Chinese manufacturers that have used dangerous substitutes and often are contaminated.

I am interested in changing brands but I'm scared and would like some knowledge and advice. The Pro plan that I get uses brewers rice, from what I understand Brown Rice is better. I would go to try a raw diet but it seems more expensive, and labor-intensive. So I'm looking for a cheap healthy kibble that agrees with my dog. The ingredients on Prism lamb and rice seems to be excellent but the company is unknown to me so I'm a little reluctant. For the last six months or so I've been letting her have a bowl of Pro plan and a bowl of Prism she seems to like both and there hasn't been any health changes that I've noticed.

My dog also has some minor itching and anal issues; perhaps it is the Pro plan.


----------



## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

As far as the freezers go I found one on Craigslist for FREE and could not be happier. its older but in a great shape so that would be the first place to look.

I saw some of your posts regarding kibble Angeles so when I found out you were going to "experiment" I was shocked.









When we were stocking up for our pup I got chicken backs, quarters, veal heart, chicken liver, 2 turkeys and fish (about 120lbs total) for under $100. the way she is eating it will last us about 11 weeks.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Morning Everyone.
Mike, I know, I figured if anyone has seen my kibble posts they might be shocked that I would actually try this. But I figured, it was time to just try it out and see. What had really impressed me and has been on my mind was the picture of Grimm. If at the end of the 30 days I'm seeing only slight changes, then I will continue. I found some as well on craigslist awhile back - just can't do the pickup and setup - mostly just had surgery and should be okay now - but my back is not so hot - it would need to go to the basement and that would be VERY difficult. So I'd rather not end up spending medical bills if I throw my back out! I might not throw it out but I just have a feeling. I am going to get one and have been keeping eyes on the prices, so early next year I should be able to get one.

@DogGone - I know what you mean. I was working a few things in my budget, so I spent a little less when I went to the Pro Plan. At first coats felt fine but not 100% as silky as they used to be. Could be the winter months too I thought, so starting w/the second bag I got a small bag of the Orijen Regional Red and started giving it at night as treats - more like a snack....their coats starting feeling a little softer. I added the Core Canned in addition to the Alpo for Louis and of course that means the others get some too since Louis only gets 1/2 a can a day. More softness in the coat. Plus the licking I saw Angeles doing daily on his booty had stopped. So...it got me thinking that something in the Pro Plan might not be agreeing once it got in his system or maybe too much of an ingredient in his diet was the culprit. The more meat added, the licking subsided. Thus the experiment was born. The Prism dog food I believe is made by Eagle Pack / Wellpet. When you do the DIY and buy your food and freeze like so many have done on the RAW Board, it really isn't bad on the wallet. For me, it is more until I get a freezer or at least a larger refrig/freezer.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Day 1 - Breakfast - RAW - Using Natures Variety 1 oz Medallions* - The Medallions were still partially frozen - just soaked in warm water to cut the chill and soften the outer portion of the medallion. All dogs received *50/50 Lamb and Bison*. 

*Louis* - 2 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 130 calories

*Cotton* - 4 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 260 calories 

*Angeles* - 8 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 520 calories

<u>*Observations:*</u>

<u>Eating:</u> All appeared to enjoy the food and went to it straight away - no turning around wondering what else was available to eat. 

<u>After Eating:</u> All are laying down resting. After kibble feeding they normally are getting up wanting to play and I have to tell them to rest - for fear of bloat. This is good to see. I notice this when I do the DIY RAW meals too that they rest afterwards. They were very excited to eat breakfast as well. 

<u>Other notes:</u> Angeles will need a little pick me up later in the day - so adding a treat or two will bump up his caloric intake before dinner. Will modify the meal to be 10 medallions for breakfast next time. I am feeding him for 95 lbs.


----------



## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your back Angeles. Hope you get better soon.

My little one gets exhausted after a 30 minute session with the recreational bone. its amazing.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Day 1 - Snack

I gave Angeles a cup of Orijen Regional Red, 475 calories a bit ago. He feels satisfied







They are all taking a nap now after going outside for a little play time too. I do notice they don't have that quick "burst" of energy like a sugar rush when he ate his kibble yesterday (which was mostly the Pro Plan). Energy levels seem pretty stable. As a side note: I have been adding GRAIN-Free kibble at night plus some RAW over time so this is NOT a QUICK CHANGE to a new diet. I've heard of quick changes causing some dogs to bloat or have digestive upset....so doing the baby steps was advice I was given and it is working out fine thus far. Today is the first day w/out the grains or unnecessary carbs. 

Thanks Mike - not sure if my back will every be a hundred percent - VA service connected disability. Since my surgery I've been doing some exercises to try and strengthen it more....I really failed at doing that for years and I can feel it now. The exercises should help for sure!

Have a great day everyone!

Robert


----------



## Sheila (May 14, 2009)

Going to watch your thread with interest.
I've always shied away from Raw diet, even though I have read good things. Maybe if it goes well, I'll think about it more seriously. It seems like the price is comparible to good kibble.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Day 1 - Dinner - Grain-Free* - Using *Orijen Regional Red*:

Louis - 1/4 cup - 119 calories

Cotton - 3/4 cup - 356 calories 

Angeles - 1 cup - 475 calories

*Total caloric intake for the day* with a combo of Nature's Variety <u>RAW</u> *and* Orijen Regional Red Grain-Free <u>kibble</u>:

Louis = 249

Cotton = 616

Angeles = 1470

Had some happy pups today! They have _thoroughly_ enjoyed all their meals. I picked up the RAW Turkey Necks and Ground Beef for Christmas dinner.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Angeles only pooped once today (just now) and it wasn't that much! He usually goes more than that. Louis had very small amounts too. Cotton I'm sure did, but she got it hid before I could check - lots of snow out there in the back yard! The poop I did see was good formed and dark (not in a sick he needs to see the vet dark way). The snow sure is coming down now! Can't wait for Day 2, which I will probably just put in one message so I don't take up too much room on this thread









Sneak peak - A repeat of today


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Day 2 - Breakfast - RAW - Using Nature's Variety 1 oz Medallions* - The Medallions were still partially frozen - just soaked in warm water to cut the chill and soften the outer portion of the medallion. All dogs received *50/50 Rabbit and Bison*. *Angeles also received 1/2 cup of Orijen Regional Red Grain-Free Kibble.*

Louis - 2 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 130 calories

Cotton - 4 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 260 calories 

Angeles - 8 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 520 calories + 1/2 cup of Orijen Regional Red Grain-Free Kibble - 238 calories for a total of 758 calories


*Day 2 - Dinner - Grain-Free - Using Orijen Regional Red*:

Louis - 1/4 cup - 119 calories

Cotton - 3/4 cup - 356 calories 

Angeles - 1 1/2 cup - 713 calories

<u>Total caloric intake for the day:</u>

Louis = 249

Cotton = 616

Angeles = 1471

Each did have a couple of snack treats and both Cotton and Angeles had a Baa! Trachea from http://www.freerangedogchews.com

The snack and chews had a negligible impact on caloric intake. I did not capture the exact amount - not going to be too worried.

<u>*Observations:*</u>

All dogs poop less, it is firm and darker in color. Good energy levels. All food eaten.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Day 3 - Breakfast* - RAW - Using Nature's Variety 1 oz Medallions - The Medallions were still partially frozen - just soaked in warm water to cut the chill and soften the outer portion of the medallion. All dogs received 50/50 Rabbit and Bison. Angeles also received 1/2 cup of Orijen Regional Red Grain-Free Kibble.

Louis - 2 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 130 calories

Cotton - 4 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 260 calories 

Angeles - 8 Natures Variety Raw Medallions - 520 calories + 1/2 cup of Orijen Regional Red Grain-Free Kibble - 238 calories for a total of 758 calories

*Day 3 - Dinner* - Mixture of Do It Yourself (DIY) RAW, Natures Variety RAW Medallions and Orijen Regional Red Grain Free Kibble. All DIY RAW was provided according to appropriate body weight and taking into consideration breakfast intake. 

Louis - about 20 Orijen Regional Red kibbles + RAW Turkey neck + Top Sirloin

Cotton - 5 Nature's Variety Medallions - Bison and Rabbit and Top Sirloin

Angeles - 3/4 cup of Orijen Regional Red, Turkey neck and Top Sirloin

Cotton and Angeles had a LARGE Trachea for Christmas. Louis just wanted to play with his Kong Baby Wubba

*<u>Observations:</u>*

All dogs continue to poop less and when they do it is small, firm and darker in color than when on the grain containing kibble. Good energy levels. All food eaten.


----------



## tintallie (Aug 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosHere are the raw numbers:
> Orijen Regional Red $73 for 29.7 lb bag
> NV Bison RAW $15.99 for 3 lb bag
> NV Rabbit RAW $16.99 for 3 lb bag
> ...


Based on the numbers from the Champion Petfoods website, 1 cup of Orijen Regional Red is 120g and the 29.7lb bag is 13.5kg (or 13500g) so one large bag of Orijen Regional Red would have 112.5cups of food. However, if you don't use a scale to measure the mass of each cup, the "size" of a cup can vary.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Robert,

Buy the NV patties and you'll save a ton of money. Also, print out this coupon and you get a free 3 lb. bag: http://www.naturesvariety.com/tryit/index2.lasso

If you can get Bravo that will save you even more money. I buy a 10lb grind for $18. Also, check out Honest Kitchen!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you Ruth! I appreciate the link! And the math you did - sometimes things are right in front of me!







And I still miss them.

The store I go to also has the Bravo, Stella and Primal in addition to the NV. So I will check out the pricing! Thank you.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Robert, I think it's cool that you are experimenting with options to optimize the health of your dogs. They force us to go outside our boundaries often!

I hope the experiment works!

I've tried raw several times and it didn't work well for my dogs, and I have sworn no more trials. However, I am trying the NV, but only about every third day. The rest of the time is still homecooked.

As for the insurance, I don't know anything about the plans, but insurance for some of the major things would be nice, like bloat. I believe that raw reduces chances for bloat/torsion, but doesn't eliminate it. And that's one very expensive surgery (I hope that you never have to experience it!!) When Indy was young and I looked into insurance, it wouldn't have helped her, I don't think. I remember looking at it and figuring it wasn't worth it.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you Lisa. I couldn't have set it better myself about the boundaries - sometimes we get stuck in our ways - I know I did. It actually feels pretty liberating to try something new because I am doing it hoping it will be better for them. Doing a mix of grain-free kibble, RAW and grain-free canned is working good so far. To be honest - I only see Angeles poop at night! Louis poops a couple of times a day but it is always very small - less than 1/2 of what he use to poop in a day.

The surgery for bloat I have heard is very expensive. We are hoping for no emergency and when bonus time gets here (if we get one this year), to put that money in the bank and not touch it. That will be our "emergency" reserve for the dogs. And then continue to build on it. We have already started the emergency reserves anyway. Yesterday we did go over the budget figures again and found where we can put the insurance money away even if we decide not to keep the insurance. We really went all cash since I opted out of all the credit cards since they wanted to increase the rates (and not just by a little either!) - the increases would have added several hundred dollars a month in interest! And I already got burned in January when my mom died - Home Depot sent a notice and of course I didn't pay attention cause I was dealing with my mom's death and my payment went up by almost $100 more for my home improvement. They would do nothing to reverse the interest since I passed the Opt out date! January was the ONLY time they sent the notice and I failed to see it. So now I watch every piece of mail coming in the house and every statement. As soon as I opted out of one, it was a snowball, every couple of weeks a new "change in terms"....so even if we had insurance, we wouldn't have the credit card to pay for the bill first and then get reimbursed - catch 22! So - we hope and pray all will be fine! If we use it we us it, if we don't we still have it sitting there







It is a gamble. But surprisingly we are realizing that our new cash life is okay. And once those credit cards are paid down (like Louis' surgery!) then there is extra to go to the emergency fund.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Forgot to post last night and now don't remember the exact measurements of dinner! I didn't write them down since I did the math in my head!







and now I don't remember!









*Day 4 - Breakfast* - *Orijen Regional Red Grain Free* kibble with a can of *Wellness Core Turkey, Chicken Liver and Turkey Liver Formula*.

Louis - 1/2 can and 10 kibbles

Cotton - 1/4 can and 1/2 cup of the kibble

Angeles - 1/4 can and 1 1/2 cup of the kibble


*Day 4 - Dinner* - *Grain Free kibble using Orijen Regional Red* Kibble with a *sample of the Natures Variety Instinct canned duck*. All dogs were fed according to weight and subtracting what they had for breakfast.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> I've tried raw several times and it didn't work well for my dogs, and I have sworn no more trials. However, I am trying the NV, but only about every third day. The rest of the time is still homecooked.


Do have any recipes you have shared on here before for home cooking? I was gong to take a search. I had a family member that used to feed home cooked because of her dogs pancreatic condition. So she had to be REAL careful about feeding her.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

If you want, I can pm you what I do for the dogs. I'm not sure I would recommend anyone do what I do - I'm careful about a few things, but haven't completely balanced the diets because I don't have a lot of confidence in the science that says what those numbers should be for optimal nutrition.

Because I have dogs that can each handle almost exactly one protein, their diets are very limited







, and I have to do a lot with supplements. Indy is the one with lots of pancreas problems here.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks Lisa that would be cool. But don't spend a lot of time. If you have something handy would be cool. Just wanted to get an idea of the home cooking recipes/supplementation.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Day 5 - Breakfast - RAW* - Using *Nature's Variety* 1 oz Medallions - The Medallions were still partially frozen - just soaked in warm water for a second to cut the chill and soften the outer portion of the medallion. I cut Louis' into smaller pieces so he could handle the medallions better. All dogs received 50/50 Rabbit and Bison.

Louis - 2 Natures Variety Raw Medallions

Cotton - 5 Natures Variety Raw Medallions

Angeles - 9 Natures Variety Raw Medallions

_<u>Observations:</u>_

Dogs ate all their food. NO begging them to eat. NO turning their nose up at it. They love their RAW. They rested right after eating.

*Day 5 - Dinner* - Grain Free kibble using *Orijen Regional Red* Kibble. All dogs were fed according to weight and subtracting what they had for breakfast.

_<u>Observations:</u>_

I am beginning to notice that Angeles is losing a little weight. This is good! I was starting to be able to pinch an inch on him - you know how it is changing food around. All energy levels are good. I do have to remind them to settle after eating the kibble now. They do want to play now afterwards. Probably because it is dinner time, not breakfast and they just woke up and got their tummies full.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was wondering if you weighed them prior to starting? When mine switched to no grain kibble and raw, they became leaner and harder with no loss of weight. It was interesting to see the body condition change.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't have a good scale here and it was too treacherous to take them to the Petsmart for weighing. He may not be losing weight as in pounds - but he looks like he is losing some body fat. Good observation!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

A kibble fed dog typically does have a very different look. Particularly (sorry Robert, no dig here), a corn-fed dog....more inclined to put on that "kibble weight". Indy's body changed dramatically when I changed her from a (non-corn) kibble to homecooked many years ago.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Robert, you are doing such a really super job wih Angeles's diet! You may in a few weeks, if Angeles is on ALL raw, actually see a weight GAIN in muscle. Don't worry! It would be muscle. Grimm beefed up considerably when we switched from grain-free Orijen to all raw.









Corn in kibble is difficult, it isn't even the "corn" we think of when we think of corn. It isn't the corn that humans eat, but rather, the hard, nearly indigestible, low-value corn that is fed to ruminants. (and we wonder why our dogs were fat, gassy, and had big dog-log poops when we had dogs on kibble growing up)


----------



## EmilyK0429 (Dec 6, 2009)

You might even take photos of your pack so you can keep track of their physical changes. I think how a dog looks is more important than the amounts of lbs that the scale says.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks for the support yall during this trial. I will look through all my pics and get some that are before the RAW and grain-free Trial. Or at least take some tomorrow - on Day 7. And then more pictures at the end. I completely forgot about doing that! Thank you for reminding me. I am feeling MUCH MORE comfortable feeding RAW each morning (I think I only skipped one day w/no RAW so far) and the pups are def. enjoying it. In fact, Cotton looked at me funny one morning when I was a little tired and thought - just eat the grain-free in the AM and get your RAW at night. She has these looks and you KNOW what she is saying. Let me see if I can get this right. She said (head cocked and slightly looking down at the kibble then back up at me), "What is this? I know you know this isn't the raw meaty stuff. What up with that? You mad at me daddy?" She is SUCH a princess! 

You know, I even got to thinking how some dog kibble with grains talks about digestive enzymes included. So, that got me thinking - why are digestive enzymes added if this is so natural for a dog to eat? I mean I can understand if a dog has a medical condition and a digestive enzyme therapy might be needed. But if digestive enzymes are used to help a dog digest an ingredient for which they don't normally digest, well that seems kind of unnatural - like nature would have provided that in the dog if it was meant for the dog to digest something naturally. And then the whole thing about wolves diets not being healthy since they usually die young....which has nothing to do with diet but generally cause they have an injury or get killed. Diet has nothing to do with that - unless folks are thinking they are fighting over food! My mind is opening....and I thought I had already taken the red pill when it was offered to me....maybe I had actually swallowed the blue pill by mistake! You know, sometimes I do get my colors mixed up in a darkened room!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Day 6 - the cliff notes - see Day 5 above







It's been a long day. They did get some Core Fish in a can tonight too as a late night snack


----------



## EmilyK0429 (Dec 6, 2009)

I am so glad that things are going well for you. Heck it wasn't until I got Meega did I know there was any differences in dog food. She is the first dog that is MINE. Well we had gone through the ringer trying to find a food and did well on Natural Balance for some time, but I quit it due to the cost. We went on Canidae but had been having issues. We went to the vet thinking we had EPI and got the blood work done. That came back that we didn't. We are doing a 30 day round of antibiotics incase of SIBO. The vet told me to stay on the Canidae and if we switch she wanted to do a Rx diet. I looked at the price of that and decided lets try some grain free and that did the trick! She has been on Chicken and Turkey Evo now for 1-2 weeks and is doing great. I do have some pork based enzymes from thinking we had EPI. I have been adding those since we did a cold turkey switch but are lowering them. Meega is doing fantastic and I don't think we are going to have to keep going to the vet so much! Plus she is gaining weight and her coat looks fantastic! She has always been fairly skinny, but got under weight so we are getting back to how we should be.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

What great news and results!!!! The more I read and listen to other people's experiences and what I see in my own dogs already I know this is the right path. I'm on day 7 and my observations have been very consistent since Day 1 (keeping in mind their bodies were already used to eating RAW as a snack!) - smaller poops, less pooping, meal ENJOYMENT like never before and they don't have those "spikes" of energy that grain containing kibbles caused - which I never noticed before! That doesn't' mean my dogs are lazy now or have low energy. They have very good energy. After a few days on the grain-free and RAW I've felt softer coats and the shedding reduced (not that it was that bad). I could go on and on -still trying to keep an objective and open mind - but I think I finally go the pill color right and took the red pill this time and I'm already seeing good results.


----------



## EmilyK0429 (Dec 6, 2009)

I know exactly what you mean Robert! My only complaint with Meega is that she has always been a fairly high energy dog and now it is just a consistent ready to go and do stuff mood. I'm sure she must be feeling better I just feel bad that I never realized that she was feeling bad until she lost a good amount of weight. 

I also forgot to add that her eye boogers have decreased we still have some, but I think she is getting all the crap out of her system still.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Well, Day 7 - Day 30 is going to be more of the same so instead of being OCD about writing every single day the same information for breakfast and dinner...I thought I would just report back on occasion.

Suffice it to say - the dogs are thoroughly enjoying themselves.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Here are their pictures I took on Christmas Day, December 25, 2009 - that was Day 3 of the trial run of RAW and Grain-Free

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1306211&page=1#Post1306211


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I am adding a SMALL amount of grains back in today through the canned Duck and Oatmeal from Holistic Selects. Both Louis and Angeles has started to get constipated. I think they are doing great on the RAW + MOSTLY Grain-Free diet







I could add some pumpkin but since I have those cans it makes sense to just use them to see if that helps out. Will pick up some pumpkin when I go out to the store. Cotton seems to be fine. That has been an interesting journey so far!

Did anyone else have any constipation issues with their dogs when switching to RAW or Grain-Free? Was it just a transitional thing?


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

When feeding totally raw, the rule of thumb is that if the dogs are too constipated, feed more MM and if the dogs and too soft poop, feed more bone. I am going to assume the same with a partial raw diet...

(I can't look back to your older posts when replying to see what amounts and types of RMB's and MM you are feeding, but you might try to up the MM just a tad to see if that works. I know my male needs more MM than my female).

ETA: can't find amounts of turkey necks/MM you have been feeding...are you weighing those? Necks are pretty boney.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I've been doing the Natures Variety pre-made RAW and then Orijen grain-free kibble at night. I've done one DIY since I started this....don't have a lot of storage space right now (no BIG freezer or regular sized refrigerator) so it has been easier to do just the pre-made and the kibble. I can add some muscle meat on the side and see if that helps...I have to run to the store today and can pick some up. Thanks!


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

If you are mostly doing premade, I would start with only small amounts of MM (for the dogs that are constipated only) because you don't want to go too far in the opposite direction.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

ahhh okay! Thank you!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Dogs are continuing to do okay - I let them just have grain-free kibble plus some canned (duck w/oatmeal) for two days and all is gone back to normal from the little constipation. I didn't see any MM at the Wal-Mart that I wanted to get so I didn't go that route. This morning was back to the RAW from NV and I've put out a bowl of grain-free kibble. I've noticed that all the dogs seem to be getting leaner - more visible in Angeles and I can feel it in Cotton (hard to see w/her fur). After they eat the RAW in the morning I am starting to put some grain-free kibble down so they can eat if they are hungry and they usually do either straight away or after an hour or two. The RAW is digesting much quicker so I don't want them getting stomach aches as I had a couple of bile episodes. I've also done a 30% power level on my microwave and did a quick 1 minute defrost instead of hot water on the 8 oz patties from Natures Variety RAW. The patties are more manageable and I don't have to put them in the refrigerator overnight. Using the 8 oz I can get the 12 count for $25 (6 lb container) and it should last all week (+/- the daily food regime) without taking too much room in my freezer...still have some room for our food too! This has and continues to be a fun food experiment for sure! I know the dogs are enjoying it as am I.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Question - has anyone that has gone RAW and / or Grain-Free kibble noticed gas in their dogs?

I notice at night when they get the Orijen Grain-Free kibble they are starting to get gassy. But I don't really recall this happening when they are just eating the Natures Variety RAW Medallions.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Grain Free kibble typically still has some potato in it, and dogs can have trouble with that (or other stuff in it too, but I would suspect the carb source).


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobos I've also done a 30% power level on my microwave and did a quick 1 minute defrost instead of hot water on the 8 oz patties from Natures Variety RAW. The patties are more manageable and I don't have to put them in the refrigerator overnight. Using the 8 oz I can get the 12 count for $25 (6 lb container) and it should last all week (+/- the daily food regime) without taking too much room in my freezer...still have some room for our food too! This has and continues to be a fun food experiment for sure! I know the dogs are enjoying it as am I.


Maybe a goofy bias, but I do think that any amount of time in the microwave alters the food. 

It really is scary when you have more food in the fridge for the dogs than than the humans!


----------



## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosQuestion - has anyone that has gone RAW and / or Grain-Free kibble noticed gas in their dogs?
> 
> I notice at night when they get the Orijen Grain-Free kibble they are starting to get gassy. But I don't really recall this happening when they are just eating the Natures Variety RAW Medallions.



When Damian was on TOTW, he had gas frequently. Now that he is on NV's RAW, haven't noticed any gas at all.


----------



## EmilyK0429 (Dec 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosQuestion - has anyone that has gone RAW and / or Grain-Free kibble noticed gas in their dogs?
> 
> I notice at night when they get the Orijen Grain-Free kibble they are starting to get gassy. But I don't really recall this happening when they are just eating the Natures Variety RAW Medallions.


When we started Meega on Evo she had some gas, but it finally stopped. I will say that we did a cold switch due to her not doing to well on Canidae so it was an adjustment for her system. Even the worst gas on the Evo was not nearly as bad as it had been before the switch. Meega has been on a 30 day round of antibiotics due to thinking we might have SIBO so it could have been related to that. We are almost done with our antibiotics so we will see how she does after we are done.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks everyone. I think I'm going to reduce the kibble more now and do more of the RAW. I don't think they will mind.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Ran by the store and picked up some more NV Raw and a sample of a product called Stella & Chewy's RAW- made in Wisconsin and all sourced in the United States + they do a pathogen check and certify no E Coli or Salmonella!....very interesting. Will give it a try. Going to continue REDUCING the grain-free kibble.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobos I don't think they will mind.


No, I don't think they will mind at all


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

They are going to be overjoyed when I get home tonight - more RAW for dinner!!!!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

They were so HAPPY!!!! they followed me around from living room to kitchen to sink etc... they knew I had a bag of RAW food! I mixed the Natures Variety RAW with the Stella and Chewy's. Of course they loved them both. Both are lamb. Angeles had maybe 1/4 cup of Orijen kibble that was left over in his bowl today. AND - drum roll - So far NO GAS!!!!! YEAH!!!!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

They had ALL RAW again today....they are so enjoying it! And they are doing so good!!!!









I'm thowing in the







early! 

I can't go back now.


----------



## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

Nice. I'm didn't see if you already explained this or not, but how are you serving it? Partly frozen or is completely thawed?


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

It is partly frozen - I've done the quick defrost in the microwave for about 1 minute on 30% defrost power - just enough to be able to break with my hands into smaller bited. And then still chewy enough to let them chew through it. If I let it dethaw overnight in the refrigerator then it is so easy to gulp down and then they are just done. They like the chewing part.

I will also try some DIY on occasion - it is all dependent on what they have fresh at the store when I go - I don't have large storage right now. I do like for them to chew on the bones (also give them those Baa Traheas) - they enjoy it and it takes them longer to eat. Cotton went right to sleep after eating last night! She is too funny. Her tummy was filled with good stuff.


----------



## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

OK, just curious on what others are doing. I'm using the patties from NV as you know, I've been defrosting in the microwave for about 50 seconds and then just serving it, still mostly frozen. I bought a turkey neck for Damian from NV, I let him have it in the crate while I was out yesterday running errands. I was back in about an hour and the whole thing was gone. It was frozen! WTH.


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

I would not give bones that are meant to be consumed such as turkey necks unsupervised. That is a choking accident waiting to happen. I never feed the dogs out of ear range. Also a whole turkey neck, depending on what size yours come in, is A LOT of bone to consume at once. Mine get only about 8 oz (about 1/3 a tom neck) along with about 16 oz or so muscle meat.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ch3ckpo1ntOK, just curious on what others are doing. I'm using the patties from NV as you know, I've been defrosting in the microwave for about 50 seconds and then just serving it, still mostly frozen. I bought a turkey neck for Damian from NV, I let him have it in the crate while I was out yesterday running errands. I was back in about an hour and the whole thing was gone. It was frozen! WTH.


I concer with Natalie to be careful with the bones. Do supervise. Also, the bones probably shouldn't be given frozen...i would think, even if they can be eaten, that it could chip a tooth. I normally get turkey necks at the store for real cheap and they are already dethawed and not frozen.

Have you been to http://www.rawdogranch.com to see the excel spreadsheet on the % between muscle meat, raw meaty bones and organ meat? It is really cool! And can help you give the right amount. Too much bone can cause constipation... Muscle meat can help loosen back up. 

Robert


----------



## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

^ Thanks.


----------



## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosAlso, the bones probably shouldn't be given frozen.


I often feed Sasha frozen as she gulps her food otherwise. I have never had a problem feeding frozen and in my situation I could potentially have a bigger problem if she tried to gulp down a thawed turkey neck.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Agree with everything Natalie has said. I also feed RMB's (bones...such as turkey necks) partially frozen. I also only feed those at mealtime when I am there to supervise.

Also, if you gave your pup the turkey neck and no additional MM (meat, no bone) - your pup may be constipated and have dry flakey poop.


----------



## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

Well he's on a RAW diet and he hate his lunch one hour before that.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosThey had ALL RAW again today....they are so enjoying it! And they are doing so good!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Great news


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

They are now laying down after eating - resting.... they love their RAW and grain-free food! You know what makes me excited is when Cotton does her little twirl and dance when I'm putting her bowl down. She is so happy - like a special occasion every meal.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

They so enjoyed not just pre-made RAW today but had some chicken wings and some ground beef. They were in "wolf" heaven! Their inner wolf was so excited!

Also - came across a really cool site that is talking about feeding your dog RAW: http://doggybytes.ca/dogs-health-worth-starbucks-latte/2183/

Mine are so happy to be eating RAW now...and it really isn't just the cost over kibble in some instances....I spent thousands on Louis' teeth removal and cleansings over the years! That would have paid for a LOT of good RAW food. And he would probably have ALL his teeth.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Welcome to the dark side Robert


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobos but had some chicken wings and some ground beef.


And it begins....you're one of us now! Muwhahahahahaha!


----------



## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

For those of you that are like me (like the pre-made RAW because your too lazy to make it yourself), its not the cheaper way to feed lol.

At Damian's age and weight, its $280 a month to feed him NV RAW, and thats about 85% RAW. 

Thats crazy, but its the cost of being lazy and still wanting a healthy pet.


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

The dogs are so enjoying the RAW. got them some chicken quarters (split in half) from the wal-mart tonight. They will have that plus some ground beef tomorrow. Got 4 lbs for $4.00 - way cool! Plus more chicken wings and beef. I still have some Orijen left and some CORE cans so I will feed those sporadically - not going to waste the money - plus it is grain-free just cooked! LOL And I have some NV RAW too. I'm thinking I may use the NV RAW for now for breakfast - faster for me...and then for dinner the good "crunchy" meal via DIY. That will save a TON of money by doing DIY.

I tell you the dogs are so ENGAGED with their eating. Angeles sits in the kitchen just waiting - but right next to me....loves when I come home from the store more so than in the past...he know now when he smells the chicken it is his! LOL And even my weenie dog with 1/2 his teeth just goes to town with his chicken wing. 

So very glad to have tried this little experiment!

Thanks everyone for all the advice.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosI tell you the dogs are so ENGAGED with their eating.


Even if there weren't any other benefits I would still feed raw just for that reason - my dogs LOVE it.

They LOVE to eat!!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Good point Lauri! I just have to try and NOT overfeed them right now. They are just enjoying their eating times. Today I had to just put some grain-free kibble down - was trying to get to work and I woke up late! I'm sure when I get home it will mostly still be there...that is what happened last time. They all looked so disappointed when I put the kibble down. They had a look that said, "what's wrong daddy?" I had to leave and go to work feeling guilty! they know how to lay it on thick!


----------



## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangEven if there weren't any other benefits I would still feed raw just for that reason - my dogs LOVE it. They LOVE to eat!!


That is the very BEST benefit for us! For so long I have watched Luther being just OK - but definitely underweight - not finishing meal after meal and totally refusing 2-3 times a week. It's great for him - but I have to say it just warms my heart to see him look forward to meal times and finish every last bit - every time!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Most of the grain-free kibble was left and they were waiting for the RAW!!!! The had a great meal tonight!


----------



## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

They have been on just do it yourself RAW for almost 4 days now....we ran out of the NV Raw. Living on Chicken Quarters, Wings a small amount of beef and the occasion chicken liver. I am having to reduce the amount I give now since they are not getting as much exercise during these cold winter months..... Their fur feels very soft - a softness that I haven't quite felt before. I mean they have had soft fur before but it just feels different....and in a good way. The reduced, dust turning poop is wonderful to see! And the energy levels - AWESOME!!!!! Angeles and Cotton can just go and go and go. This isn't a kibble high - this is protein and fat energy. Teeth are very nice. Will be getting some pictures later today hopefully and will post them online here. And Louis our almost 14 year old is loving his 45 minute dinners - its about how long it takes for him to eat his wing.


----------



## EmilyK0429 (Dec 6, 2009)

I'm glad to hear that your pack is doing so well! I can't wait to see photos of everyone. Meega might be getting a chicken quarter tonight but she doesn't know it yet! We have done a few before but that was before we had all the other problems under control.


----------

