# Need help finding a breeder



## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

I'm looking for a breeder who is crossing top line VA west German Black and Red's with top line SCHH3/IPO3 working breed dogs with HIGH drive, super athleticism, and straight backs. I'd love a dog with the black and red coat, a straight back, and the drive to be an incredible protection dog. Anyone know of a breeder doing this well?


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

This is as close as I've found online, but I'm looking for a deeper black and darker red


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Make sure you really read thru ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html

and if it matters WHERE the dog comes from you may want to add your general location to all your posts by going up to the narrow black strip along the top of the page, click on User CP and then put the location in to show up to the left of each post (like my Pocono stuff).

There are actually a bunch of people looking for puppies right now on other threads (though all of you wanting to housebreak a puppy in the WINTER/holiday season are crazy in my book!!! ACK!.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

No - there is no one doing this "well" - there are many crossed litters out there...most end up average dogs most suitable to pet homes. You can find a showline x workingline cross in many pedigrees of dogs who are fairly competitive but it is going to be in 3 or 4 generations back....

there are black and tan working line dogs out there...usually blanket pattern....and if you want to get a pup that color I'd say look into those breeders....Marsha Seck in Ne has a blanket pattern female bred to a top working male who had all three colors in her last litter (black, sable and black & tan). The one black and tan female is owned by a friend of mine who does IPO and is pleased with her drives and potential.

Lee


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

wolfstraum-
thanks for that. I'm really looking for a male that's titled in SCHH or IPO with this kind of coloring that's in the pic. I have an incredible west german pedigree female that's black and red and a large black and red west german male already. Hoping to get them to let me use their dog as a stud to try and do this on my own possibly. My female looks very similar to the dog in the pic just darker blacks and deeper red. She's just sloped a little more than I'd like.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

This is Nike and Zeus


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so actually your looking for a 'stud dog', not a puppy from what I gather?

Since you have a male & Female, just curious why your not breeding them? 

I think you will be hard pressed to find a good breeder willing to breed to your female UNLESS, you have titles on her, health clearances?? Certainly not saying it's impossible.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

JasonSwanny said:


> wolfstraum-
> thanks for that. I'm really looking for a male that's titled in SCHH or IPO with this kind of coloring that's in the pic. I have an incredible west german pedigree female that's black and red and a large black and red west german male already. Hoping to get them to let me use their dog as a stud to try and do this on my own possibly. My female looks very similar to the dog in the pic just darker blacks and deeper red. She's just sloped a little more than I'd like.


Oh boy....I just need a break from the forum....lol see ya guys


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

dani > cluck cluck cluck


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Ok - if you want to find a male to breed to your female....lets go through what I would ask you about your female if you want to breed to my male....after all, many people buy pups more on the strength of the sire's name or accomplishments than that of the female (not that I agree with that rationale!) and a litter from your girl is going to represent my male!

If you answer that only one or two of the questions I ask are done, I will tell you that you need to do more before I let my male produce a litter with your female...I only want him to breed females with good records so that the pups fairly represent him...pedigree is a good start, but there needs to be more...color is the very least of the criteria...structure is important! and there is more to how it fits together properly than just the degree of "slant" in the rear...


Is she OFA or SV hip certified? what are the ratings?
What titles and conformation rating does she have?
Is she Koer classed?
What is her pedigree? how will it work with my males?

The dog in the photo you show has poor pigment, it is washed out...Carmen gave a pretty concise critique in the other thread you started....just from the candid, the male you have is a better looking dog...the female is losing pigment, and I would look to strengthen pigment rather than wash it out....GIVEN you answer all the questions positively!

Lee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They look young, is she a pup? Frankly, mixing the lines can be a huge mistake. There are a lot of WGSL dogs out there with schutzhund titles. And they do pass their AD, and they do have acceptable temperament according the the SV. 

But if you like dogs with less angulation, go with working line dogs (buy a WL bitch). They come in black and tan and they have the athleticism and energy that you want. 

Chances are if you mix a perfectly good GSL bitch with a perfectly good working line dog, you are as likely to end up with a nervy curvy sable beast as you are a straight back black and tan. And the dog in that first picture, doesn't look like it could hold up very well to any type of athletic test. 

People will mix the lines. People who know very little usually. But to do that right, you really have to double your knowledge of the dogs and what they produce, and who each is. And because it will be an outcross breeding, you will not be breeding for the first generation, but maybe the second or third before you get what you are looking for. So to do that right, you really would have to have a lot of knowledge, and be working toward a clear goal.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

wolf- 
I'm doing the work now to get her titled. 

She has an appointment at 2 years (this December) to get her hips x-rayed to determine if we are or aren't going to breed her.

Bloodlines: She's an Astor vom Bad Waldle grand daughter and on the other side it's Vico vom Farbenspiel

And that's a bad pic, but she's a little washed out. That's why I went after Zeus like I did. He's got very little to no gray in his saddle. She's a medium red, he's a dark red.

I'm working with the police dog trainer in my town of 40k at our schutzhund club. We're eyeing our first show shortly. So, I'm trying to do my due diligence. I should have her ready to rock and roll in the next 5-6 months. She's going through her heat cycle now, so she'll be ready in around 6 months. I'm thinking about adding a titled female if possible as well.

Zeus is a Remo vom Fiemereck/Tyra vom Fleischerheim son


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

good - glad to hear that you are doing something and doing hip/elbows...so you have a start......just over 2 is a little young IMO to breed - you would be more credible if you get that IPO1 on her before breeding...

if you want to cross into a working line, then look to a few of the V rated ones who have black and tan in the background...maybe Chuck v Dorneberger Bach - he has a showline female back about 4 generations and is V rated....

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lee, and I'm glad your trying to do it right Hope you can find what your looking for.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I just want to throw out there how nice Wolfstraums post was. Thanks Lee for the honest answer without berating the OP. Breath of fresh air. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> good - glad to hear that you are doing something and doing hip/elbows...so you have a start......just over 2 is a little young IMO to breed - you would be more credible if you get that IPO1 on her before breeding...
> 
> if you want to cross into a working line, then look to a few of the V rated ones who have black and tan in the background...maybe Chuck v Dorneberger Bach - he has a showline female back about 4 generations and is V rated....
> 
> Lee


we are finally prepared to breed and Katya will be almost 5 lol


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

selzer said:


> They look young, is she a pup? Frankly, mixing the lines can be a huge mistake. There are a lot of WGSL dogs out there with schutzhund titles. And they do pass their AD, and they do have acceptable temperament according the the SV.
> 
> But if you like dogs with less angulation, go with working line dogs (buy a WL bitch). They come in black and tan and they have the athleticism and energy that you want.
> 
> ...


Zeus is now 17 months old 88 pounds, Nike will be 2 in 2 weeks and is 73 pounds. Can't put weight on her. She's got a track in my back yard where she's worn out the grass from doing laps lol. We run 1.8 miles every morning and walk nearly 3 most nights. If we didn't I'd have a big pothole as a back yard haha. I like the athleticism and work ethic of the WL, but I really don't like sable or all black.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I just want to throw out there how nice Wolfstraums post was. Thanks Lee for the honest answer without berating the OP. Breath of fresh air.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


agreed


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thanks - I DO try to be helpful! !

A couple of other males I can think of - all black and tans...

if you breed to a pure black, you will ONLY get black and red pups as the black recessive got bred out of the showlines eons ago....not IMPOSSIBLE, but HIGHLY improbable that a showline is carrying black as a recessive...

Drago Patriot
Archer Traumwolfen
Gerry Morfelderland
Cayos Xazziam

So there is one in Alabama, one in Texas, one in MD, one in CT....if I think on it, there may be a few more....now these are all straight working lines....not what I personally would do (cross) but that is what you are asking for....
It is harder to find a good looking black GSD...most have finer heads but I have seen a few decent ones....Witmer Tyson has a nice black male (or did)...not sure where you are in the US as you don't have it listed...

Lee


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> Thanks - I DO try to be helpful! !
> 
> A couple of other males I can think of - all black and tans...
> 
> ...


I'm basically in TX. Didn't know that the black recessive had been bred out of the showlines. Seems to be harder to find a great black GSD though. That might help a lot. The negative to starting this is you don't know what you're going to get. I'd love to find a breeder that has this one or two generations back. Breeding back in some of the things I'm looking for. I don't want a straight back, a very VERY slight rear angulation would be great.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

it is getting confusing running two threads.....hopefully one of hte mods will combine them....

Exactly - you don't know what you are going to get by crossing type!!!! My breeding philosophy is that you try to get 2 dogs who are very very similar and whose minuses are pluses on the side - complimentary type....with compensatory factors....you are throwing the complimentary characteristics away doing a cross type.

Frankly - putting together show and work is mixing oil and water...it is going to be hard to get the 'blend' you are envisioning....it has been done alot and the problem is that the working people don't want a half showline and the showline don't want a working cross either....experienced breeders who do this usually do it for the pet market and MAY keep one to incorporate into their program....

I have seen some showlines who look good on the field....REPRODUCING that is difficult tho....the very very experienced people who try very often do not succeed in consistantly producing character adn working ability....

Lee


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> it is getting confusing running two threads.....hopefully one of hte mods will combine them....
> 
> Exactly - you don't know what you are going to get by crossing type!!!! My breeding philosophy is that you try to get 2 dogs who are very very similar and whose minuses are pluses on the side - complimentary type....with compensatory factors....you are throwing the complimentary characteristics away doing a cross type.
> 
> ...


There are so few of the SL with high scores in protection. One of the ones I've seen in person is Ken vom Rosenblick. He's pretty incredible. I love some of the mid '90s Siegers too. Seemed like even while stacked they had such a small amount of angulation. A lot of them scored very highly in protection as well. IDK, seems like there's no win in this. I love the working breeds energy, but I love the SL's beauty.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jason, if you can add Texas to your User CP you may get even more specific help for your area.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well if you like Ken v Rosenblick then have a look at 
Merkels Dec 2013 litter which has Ken as grandsire German Shepherd Puppies for Sale


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks Carmspack, I do like Ken, but haven't seen the same kind of scores coming from his bloodlines unless I've missed them somehow. You have some all black GSDs that are workers. What do you think of the suggestion of using them to breed with the showlines to increase their drive without messing with their color?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that , swanny is the problem -- do understand "Ken" you would have to look beyond him , phenotype , and have a good study of his genotype.
Look at all his littermates , and what they have been able to produce. Look into his sire, dam , and other generations to see what they were capable of.

You get what you select for. 

Earlier on I said there are lots of people using dogs from Czech/ DDR/ West German working and West German show lines. Germany is now one, united, just German . 
Here is a pedigree, one of mine . Carmspack Sumo . Here you will see a pedigree that has west German working, Belgian working , west German show line (with a reason and purpose - more later) Czech and DDR .
The "show" line addition was not done by myself . I inherited it , with knowledge and approval . The dam's line goes back to my oldest stock. The breeder of the show addition Bazita Olympus was known for confident dogs that took to trainer well . AND the pedigree brought in Kirschental's Sela and Orlanda , which bring in Nimi K , and Marko Cellerland which complement the efforts of using old heritage herding lines already existing in the female Salada , sister to Tetley who was my foundation. Bazita was Canto lite (minimal) .

Journey BH , IPO 1 is a sister of Sumo . HE has one litter to his credit , a male Gus http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ictures/311393-carmspack-gus-5-weeks-now.html. 

that's a start -- got to go to work now --

yes I have black dogs working , which means little to me as I will not breed or select for colour -- outside of rich pigment . Would I breed to show lines for drive -- NO -- that's contrary -- focus , determination, confident "bomb proof" , intelligence , drive -- with an on and off switch come from generations background chosen specifically for those things , as a priority .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I used to train with a very good dog by Gent od Policie
VD Gent od Policie 

whose dam was show lines, but the lines she was from were of the Trienzbachtal kennels. Trienzbachtal was a show kennel that maintained working ability. I have seen other good working/show crosses that used females from this kennel or coming down from these lines. Trienzbachtal had a goal and plan and they maintained balance in their lines so when their lines were used in crosses people were not breeding two very different types. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Not in your country and hence not of intresst but I´ve seen quite many dogs with the structure and looks you prefer from this father line, black and tan with less angulation and rather compact dogs, all dogs from the same fatherline, 

KORAD Talweg's Malte

Another one from the same father but a direct son to ichi -ban,


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I know zip about breeding but if you are looking for working / show crosses maybe google v.d. Austerlitz? She is in Tulsa and combines lines. Several of her dogs are doing well in IPO locally at least. Might give you some ideas.


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## JasonSwanny (Aug 15, 2013)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> I know zip about breeding but if you are looking for working / show crosses maybe google v.d. Austerlitz? She is in Tulsa and combines lines. Several of her dogs are doing well in IPO locally at least. Might give you some ideas.


Looked up Susanne, and she seems like the real deal. I loved that she was utilizing some of the exact things I was talking about. Thanks for all the help!


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