# What do you make of this reaction?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'll do the best I can to describe.

Kira is 9 months. She's very balanced, and generally mild mannered. She's quiet on the homefront, and never shows any form of aggression towards anyone or dog, etc...

I also have a 7 year old Maltese (Coconut). Coconut does not like to engage in playtime with Kira. Kira will attempt to "mouth" her, and Coconut backs her off, and that's that.

Last night, I saw something "weird":

Kira wanted to play with Coconut. She was getting mouthy, and Coconut backed her off as usual.
Kira (in what appeared to be frustration), turned around and grabbed this little stuffed animal, and went absolutely ballistic on it. It was almost frightening to think what would have happed to a living thing, if that were the case. It was instant, loud, and seemed violent.
Then she turned, looked at Coconut, huffed, and went into her place.


Not to make this a two part thread, but I'm also noticing a change in the way Kira plays with her usual playmates. She's starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again. No growling, no biting, just open mouth with her body weight holding the other dogs down.

To those that have watched Kira mature, this is very uncharacteristic of her, and a drastic opposite change from being the prey vs the predator.

Is this typical of her age to see this change?


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I am watching to see more experienced people chime in, but sounds like she's maturing. 

This is the "adolescent phase" I think of when I hear that phrase. They start to thump their chest a bit, want to start blowing you off, etc. This is why the training becomes so important. And frustrating, LOL.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

By what you wrote I would say that she is becoming more confident. Mine is 7 months and she has always played this way, something I watch and supervise but has never become more then playing. At first I thought she was crazy to attempt to play that way, but she is consistent with this form of playing with all bigger dogs, she is gentler with smaller dogs and cats This is the main reason why I won't take her to a dog park, some dogs might not like that kind of play and I feel it would turn into a fight. If I remember correctly(I haven't been on here too long) she had some issues you have been working on and maybe that delayed the getting more confident part earlier??? I think its normal and as long as you keep working with her, socializing, and training you have yourself a good dog


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> I am watching to see more experienced people chime in, but sounds like she's maturing.
> 
> This is the "adolescent phase" I think of when I hear that phrase. They start to thump their chest a bit, want to start blowing you off, etc. This is why the training becomes so important. And frustrating, LOL.


The good news is that her obedience level is right up there. She listens to me 100%. I work her everyday, and take her through her paces on a regular basis. She's been an angel, and showing no signs of going through an adolescent stage with me.



llombardo said:


> By what you wrote I would say that she is becoming more confident. Mine is 7 months and she has always played this way, something I watch and supervise but has never become more then playing. At first I thought she was crazy to attempt to play that way, but she is consistent with this form of playing with all bigger dogs, she is gentler with smaller dogs and cats This is the main reason why I won't take her to a dog park, some dogs might not like that kind of play and I feel it would turn into a fight. If I remember correctly(I haven't been on here too long) she had some issues you have been working on and maybe that delayed the getting more confident part earlier??? I think its normal and as long as you keep working with her, socializing, and training you have yourself a good dog


 
I see confidence in her in so many ways. She's probably a late bloomer. Yes, she was pinned as a pup, and it did set her confidence back. We've been working so hard on socializing her, and she's responding well.
I'm not seeing any signs of fear, or any residual effects of her getting pinned.
She's a big girl now


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well that's what I mean by adolescent phase. I don't necessarily mean they forget how to do obedience, I mean they start showing some punky behavior like she is.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

This was the topic of one of my earlier threads.
My dog has gradually come out of her shell and she plays the same way, that is, mouthing and pinning other dogs, or attempting to. The general impression is that she is a wannabe alpha rather than a true alpha because she always backs off from the slightest 'real' threat. She will only stand her ground with a dog that she has 100% confidence in. Otherwise, she will only play chase or avoid entirely.
She will not allow herself to be caught or pinned.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is normal, my boy (a later bloomer) around 12 months started to push dogs around. I wouldn't worry about her and your pack, with the way she's been trained she shouldn't question her hierarchy with humans (especially you). She might challenge your kids depending on their size, and for sure will challenge your other dog. Some people will keep playing mind games at this point, the feeding first, the playing first, the attention first, to the old dog so that the newer dog doesn't question what her rank on the totem pole is. I've only really learned about this when it comes to having multiple shepherds, it will be harder since your old dog is so much smaller. Kira will see how easily she can over take the old dog and will try to do it.

The way she plays with her friends is the same way Rooney would play. So we stopped going to dog parks with random dogs, and just hang out with his "friends" so that no one gets too agitated. I don't like constantly telling him to get off dogs and let them go, so its more of a thing for me and not for him. He also started growing more and more aloof at this age, at this point, he doesn't care about people at all (unless he knows you) and has slowly stopped wanting to play with every dog we meet.

This is the fun stage, this is where you really see what your dog is going to be for the rest of her life. Some things you will see gradually progress, others, it seems like it changes over night. Mine went from being submissive to dominant in one day, and I was proud, but at the same time a little disappointed that I couldn't "trust" him as much around other dogs.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> The good news is that her obedience level is right up there. She listens to me 100%. I work her everyday, and take her through her paces on a regular basis. She's been an angel, and showing no signs of going through an adolescent stage with me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And don't forget a beautiful girl


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sounds like pretty normal GSD type play. Luka has her favorite toy, a huge stuffed monkey, which she clamps onto, shakes, and "kills". She does it with such ferocity that you'd hate to be that monkey, but she is absolutely gentle with cats, little dogs, chickens, baby goats, whatever. However, she can be rough in her play with other dogs and loves to do the throat-pinning maneuver. She dials it down depending on the situation. When Vinca was little, Luka used to gently clomp down on her neck and they'd just lie there like that.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> This was the topic of one of my earlier threads.
> My dog has gradually come out of her shell and she plays the same way, that is, mouthing and pinning other dogs, or attempting to. *The general impression is that she is a wannabe alpha rather than a true alpha because she always backs off from the slightest 'real' threat. She will only stand her ground with a dog that she has 100% confidence in. Otherwise, she will only play chase or avoid entirely.*
> *She will not allow herself to be caught or pinned*.


You are absolutely 100% correct. I get that read on her as well. That's why I avoid situations that might set her back. I'm making it my business to only put her in situations where she gets a positive expereince. She's always under my watchful eye 
But from what I've learned, this is the best approach to building her confidence. Eventually, she'll be a "dog", and I think this will all be behind me.... us 



martemchik said:


> This is normal, my boy (a later bloomer) around 12 months started to push dogs around. I wouldn't worry about her and your pack, with the way she's been trained she shouldn't question her hierarchy with humans (especially you). She might challenge your kids depending on their size, and for sure will challenge your other dog. Some people will keep playing mind games at this point, the feeding first, the playing first, the attention first, to the old dog so that the newer dog doesn't question what her rank on the totem pole is. I've only really learned about this when it comes to having multiple shepherds, it will be harder since your old dog is so much smaller. Kira will see how easily she can over take the old dog and will try to do it.
> 
> The way she plays with her friends is the same way Rooney would play. So we stopped going to dog parks with random dogs, and just hang out with his "friends" so that no one gets too agitated. I don't like constantly telling him to get off dogs and let them go, so its more of a thing for me and not for him. He also started growing more and more aloof at this age, at this point, he doesn't care about people at all (unless he knows you) and has slowly stopped wanting to play with every dog we meet.
> 
> *This is the fun stage, this is where you really see what your dog is going to be for the rest of her life. Some things you will see gradually progress, others, it seems like it changes over night*. Mine went from being submissive to dominant in one day, and I was proud, but at the same time a little disappointed that I couldn't "trust" him as much around other dogs.


9 months has been a good month for her. I see so many changes in how she approaches everything. Even little things like the ocean. She had her reservations about the ocean waves. She would NOT go near the waves. THEN, about 2 weeks ago, I threw her ball in there, and she scaled the waves, swam out to get her ball, and came back. So yes, I believe a lightbulb goes off in their head right around this age.



llombardo said:


> And don't forget a beautiful girl


Thanks..


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My puppy decided that she isn't afraid of the vacuum anymore today...this is a big accomplishment


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Sounds like pretty normal GSD type play. Luka has her favorite toy, a huge stuffed monkey, which she clamps onto, shakes, and "kills". She does it with such ferocity that you'd hate to be that monkey, but she is absolutely gentle with cats, little dogs, chickens, baby goats, whatever. However, she can be rough in her play with other dogs and loves to do the throat-pinning maneuver. She dials it down depending on the situation. When Vinca was little, Luka used to gently clomp down on her neck and they'd just lie there like that.


 
I'm very happy to hear about this behavior. This is something I've been concerned about with Kira. She's always been "watching from the sidelines", and it bothered me to see this.

I like the idea that some of her "normal GSD" characteristics are shining through. It's a good sign for me.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Wait until you see your sweet gentle baby take out a live animal

Last weekend we were working in the yard & here comes my boy with baby rabbit in his mouth and shaking it and the sound it was making got him more excited to shake some more. I just remember thinking who is this? LOL


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Wait until you see your sweet gentle baby take out a live animal
> 
> Last weekend we were working in the yard & here comes my boy with baby rabbit in his mouth and shaking it and the sound it was making got him more excited to shake some more. I just remember thinking who is this? LOL


OMG.... Growing up the big city... That would be a big ewwww for me.  I can't imagine what I would do if she came home with a dangling critter in her mouth.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> I'm very happy to hear about this behavior. This is something I've been concerned about with Kira. She's always been "watching from the sidelines", and it bothered me to see this.
> 
> I like the idea that some of her "normal GSD" characteristics are shining through. It's a good sign for me.


I know that you said you can control it, but this is the kind of behavior you have always wanted to avoid when it came to other dogs treating your girl like this. Now it sounds like you're enjoying that she is doing it to other dogs. Put your self in the other owner's shoes, I remember your first post about the time she got pinned by another dog, now you're letting her do the same to other dogs. I'm sure you stop it as soon as it happens, but even a split second pin can cause damage to an unstable dog.

Just one of the reasons I avoid that headache all together.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> OMG.... Growing up the big city... That would be a big ewwww for me.  I can't imagine what I would do if she came home with a dangling critter in her mouth.


I was grossed out & yelled for my husband to take it from him. All these things went through my head in a matter of 10 seconds. Should I let him eat it? What if it has parasites? Is this a training opportunity because Doggiedad from the board came to mind and he always says train, train & train! LOL I was a wreck my husband of course was calm cool & collected.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Anthony I usually leave your posts alone because I don't always agree with these assements. I'm surprised though how so many are happy about these develoopments. Remember when "she finally grew a pair".

I agree with martemchik. She is doing what you didn't like happening to her.

I could guarantee you that my Jack who is very calm and laid back most of the time would not take that from any dog. Your obedience would mean nothing because the fight would be on so quick it would make your head spin. 
Jack is not dog aggressive but he will not take crap from anyone.
I don't put him in those situations.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I agree with martemchik. She is doing what you didn't like happening to her.


Whether or not it's a "bad" thing depends on Kira's playmates. Some dogs like this type of play, so if all parties are having fun, it's no big deal. However, if she's frightening her playmates, stressing them out, or hurting them, OP should intervene. She's definitely at the age where pups like to push their boundaries, so she should be supervised closely during play and if she's starting to bully other dogs, that behavior needs to be interrupted.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Whether or not it's a "bad" thing depends on Kira's playmates. Some dogs like this type of play, so if all parties are having fun, it's no big deal. However, if she's frightening her playmates, stressing them out, or hurting them, OP should intervene. She's definitely at the age where pups like to push their boundaries, so she should be supervised closely during play and if she's starting to bully other dogs, that behavior needs to be interrupted.


I'm only going by his own words that she is scaring the crap out of her friends and that they are not liking it. To me that is not mutual roughhousing and enjoyment.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I know that you said you can control it, but this is the kind of behavior you have always wanted to avoid when it came to other dogs treating your girl like this. Now it sounds like you're enjoying that she is doing it to other dogs. Put your self in the other owner's shoes, I remember your first post about the time she got pinned by another dog, now you're letting her do the same to other dogs. I'm sure you stop it as soon as it happens, but even a split second pin can cause damage to an unstable dog.
> 
> Just one of the reasons I avoid that headache all together.


You are so wrong!
NEVER did I suggest that there was aggression or pinning, other then rough play. The other playmates are fully engaged, and they're both loving it.

Read the posts carefully. I'm not elated that she's pinning. I'm happy that she's engaging and maturing.



Jack's Dad said:


> Anthony I usually leave your posts alone because I don't always agree with these assements. I'm surprised though how so many are happy about these develoopments. Remember when "she finally grew a pair".
> 
> I agree with martemchik. She is doing what you didn't like happening to her.
> 
> ...


You're wrong too.
Dogs play in different ways. A ferocious pin is a heck of a lot different than a mouthed pin. Kira gets pinned playfully right back.
It's the fact that she's finally playing without retreat, IMO is a good sign.



Freestep said:


> Whether or not it's a "bad" thing depends on Kira's playmates. Some dogs like this type of play, so if all parties are having fun, it's no big deal. However, if she's frightening her playmates, stressing them out, or hurting them, OP should intervene. She's definitely at the age where pups like to push their boundaries, so she should be supervised closely during play and if she's starting to bully other dogs, that behavior needs to be interrupted.


I agree 100%, and that's exactly how I feel.

If I listen to some people here, you'd think their dogs sit and play poker.
Dogs play rough. Dogs mouth, and roll, and tumble.

My whole point is describing how her confidence level has gottn to the point where she also chases as well as being chased.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm only going by his own words that she is scaring the crap out of her friends and that they are not liking it. To me that is not mutual roughhousing and enjoyment.


 
The key word here is "her friends". This was said in a friendly manner. The dogs are running away in a playful way. I never mentioned the owners or myself getting concerned about someone getting hurt or pinned. It's all about roughplay.
The scare the cr*p part comes as if to say that the other playmates never had Kira play that way. Now, all of a sudden, she's roughing it.

Words out of context. Nothing more.

I was only describing a change in her behavior when she plays.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm also noticing a change in the way Kira plays with her usual playmates.


Anthony8858 said:


> She's starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
> She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again. No growling, no biting, just open mouth with her body weight holding the other dogs down.
> 
> To those that have watched Kira mature, this is very uncharacteristic of her, and a drastic opposite change from being the prey vs the predator.
> ...


 Sorry I guess I don't read that the same way you wrote it. 

I didn't realize how much I don't know. So I will take my 6 decades of dog raising to another thread.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I wasn't saying it was that terrible, but I know it only takes a second for a dog to get sick of that kind of play. Its the reason we don't really let our dogs play at the GSD club, they can be fine for hours, and then one extra pin will set them off. It's really nice that she's finally engaging, but this is the kind of behavior I don't allow my boy to do.

Without being there, I'm going to agree with your point of view of the other dogs enjoying it. I just know that very few dogs truly do enjoy getting pinned like that. My boy will allow some of his "girlfriends" to get on top of him while he's on his back, but never with their mouths around his neck. I guess as long as you keep her away from stranger dogs, which I know you do, it shouldn't be an issue.

This is probably the reason I don't post "behavior" stories. Everyone reads into them differently and without being there first hand, no one can tell if its right or wrong.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry Anthony I am with Jack's Dad and Martemchik. You said "starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again"

Well one day she will meet the dog that demands respect and she'll try her little make-a-victim-game and then you will have one big mess on your hands . You said "every dog" . When my guys are out the sure are rough , they chase and jump over each other , change directions , body check -- there is no pinning or mouthing -- the punk would have something to answer for . They run together and check out interesting spots . Even your Coconut will retaliate one day , which I think she already has when Kira was younger .

Carmen


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

some dogs play rougher then others. some dogs like to shake and destroy toys, some dogs dont... each dog is an individual . sounds like your girl is maturing and just playing rough with other dogs... i wouldnt worry about the toy shaking, if you saw my two destroy a squeeky toy you would be shocked, one dog can destroy a squeeky toy in less then 2 minutes lol....

if your friends are worried with her new playstyle, find other dogs that play close to hers and dont let her play rough with the other dogs that dont like it...

here are some videos of how my girl plays with my pitmix..notice the throat grabbing and rough play..

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/181171-sadie-rufus.html


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> sorry Anthony I am with Jack's Dad and Martemchik. You said "starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
> She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again"
> 
> Well one day she will meet the dog that demands respect and she'll try her little make-a-victim-game and then you will have one big mess on your hands . You said "every dog" . When my guys are out the sure are rough , they chase and jump over each other , change directions , body check -- there is no pinning or mouthing -- the punk would have something to answer for . They run together and check out interesting spots . Even your Coconut will retaliate one day , which I think she already has when Kira was younger .
> ...


Apparently, no one read my original question. I simply asked what everyone thought of Kira's reaction when she became frustrated with Coconut.

Then, I took the time to mention how Kira changed the past month. The original people that actually read it, understood that they were playing as pups. THEN the ALARMISTS chimed in, and made as if Kira was mauling so dog.

NO, Kira is NOT mauling a dog. I made it very clear that she is PLAYING rougher than normal.
Most recognized that this is part of the maturing process, some seem to think I got my jollies watching what YOU perceive as pinning with violence. NO, it was PLAYFUL PINNING!!! 

Here's some images of the VICIOUS ATTACK!!!

*Here's a picture of the vicious beast. She's on top of the hill, just waiting for her prey.*









*Here she is playing possum. She's just waiting to lure her victim closer, so she could move in for the kill.*










*Then, in the blink of an eye, the killer dog moves in for the throat hold. Her victim squirms for freedom from this deadly beast.
*









*Her victim calls for backup, but the mauling continues.*









*FINALLY, her victims asks for mercy, and the mauling stops!!!*










Hey, you know I love you guys  ... Even though sometimes you tend to push the panic button a bit too often.

Have a glass of wine tonight.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I guess it's good Kira grabbed that stuffed toy and shook the heck out of it instead of coconut) Sounds like since coconut was having none of it, Kira was trying to instigate her to play.

As for her getting 'rough' with her friends, these dogs play rough, I have found , and only with mine, my girls are MUCH rougher than the boys, the rougher they get from another dog, the rougher they are gonna "give".. I have also found with my 'girls', they like to instigate, if Masi wants to play, she's gonna push it with Jynx until she gets a reaction. Usually Jynx lets her have it and Masi knows, she is NOT interested and backs off, but if Jynx gives her the go ahead, Masi tends to push it to see how 'rough' she can get..

I also find, with my girls, they like to start it, if they aren't 'in charge' they get rather peeved, if they aren't in the mood, they get REAL PEEVED. 

Masi tends to read her doggie friends pretty well, knows when to back off , BUT if I think things are getting to rough, I'll step in..Sometimes someone is going to get ticked off and things can escalate.

In the pics above, Kira's buddy looks like he doesn't mind getting slobbered and mauled and is giving as good as he getting


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm also noticing a change in the way Kira plays with her usual playmates.
> 
> Sorry I guess I don't read that the same way you wrote it.
> 
> I didn't realize how much I don't know. So I will take my 6 decades of dog raising to another thread.


Just to follow up with this (rather arrogant) comment......

If you've been reading my posts since I've had Kira, you'd know that Kira has a history of being timid. Seeing her come out of her shell, and playing "normal" was a welcome sight for me.

Carmen, as you recall, you too, had a concern that Kira would "avoid" the rough play.
Again, a welcome sight to her have fun.

As far as her friends running away... well, these friends of hers were being chased in a friendly manner. I was making a point about how Kira's the one that usually being chased.

Whatever... some of you people are really crabby.


As you can see in the images, there was NO aggression.


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i answered your questions about the toy and the rough play and provided some videos as well


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

mebully21 said:


> i answered your questions about the toy and the rough play and provided some videos as well


Yes, Thank you. I enjoyed your videos, and validated the type of play as normal.

BTW... Those two dogs love each other 

It took my pup a while to learn to play that way.


----------



## Tatonkafamily (Apr 6, 2012)

My easy going, super sweet, never aggressive, goofball 2 1/2 year old Rotti does the same thing with his toys (or his dog bed) when he is worked up/wants to play and our older GSD does not. We have gone through 3 dog beds in the past year because of this  When possible, when Taz starts this, my DH or I take him out to play ball or tug in order for him to get his energy out. I think that is all it is, pent up energy and he is finding an outlet for it.

As far as the grabbing by the neck and pinning...our older GSD (London) does that to Taz all the time (although he doesn't keep him pinned, he just grabs on by the neck, yanks down, keeps him there for a second or two then releases). London bites hard too...Taz sometimes gets scabs on his neck, but it seems London knows exactly the force to use and it is a game because Taz never cries out, never have the bites been harsh (never more than minor scrabs) and Taz is CONSTANTLY going back for more. I also don't worry because I see London roll on his back for Taz too, they seem to take turns being "top dog".


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the big difference is that we're looking at this from an objective point of you and you're being subjective because your dog is finally acting like the gsd you expected to have. Right now none of this sounds like an issue, but trust me I just went through this a few months ago, it turns from play to domination. She might not ever get aggressive but she will start doing dominant behaviors on other dogs. The other dogs are just accepting this pinning, there is no such thing as playful pinning, it's a dominance thing. I know you think we're over reacting, but I literally just saw this happen with my boy, and it did cause him scrums with other dogs, even his friends. 

I also deal with my dog the way I deal with people, if he doesn't like something done to him, he's not allowed to do that behavior to other dogs. When I read your post, I knew Kira doesn't like being pinned, but you allow her to pin dogs. From my point of view that's not really fair, and I could really care less that we own gsds, all dogs should be treated the same.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> sorry Anthony I am with Jack's Dad and Martemchik. You said "starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
> She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again"
> 
> Well one day she will meet the dog that demands respect and she'll try her little make-a-victim-game and then you will have one big mess on your hands . You said "every dog" . When my guys are out the sure are rough , they chase and jump over each other , change directions , body check -- there is no pinning or mouthing -- the punk would have something to answer for . They run together and check out interesting spots . Even your Coconut will retaliate one day , which I think she already has when Kira was younger .
> ...


Good post!!


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I don't know what to say about pinning because I have actually only seen it a few times in 25+ years of owning GSDs.

Grim pinned Beau after Beau's puppy grace period expired and Beau was being a total brat. It looked fairly serious to me but Beau shook it off and, while not afraid of Grim after that, was a bit more respectful and quit jumping on top of him.

Other than that, my family dogs have always played with each other and I don't really recall pinning being a part of it. They actually did not play tons together though as most of the play was between me and the dogs. It is a shame Grim and Beau can't play right now because of Grim's back but maybe that is for the better because of Beau coming into his adult male development. There is no animosity between them, though.

I don't do dog parks and Beau has not played with a puppy since he left his litter - just ran offlead on some walks with other adult dogs I knew and not much of that.

We recently started obedience class (I got down the basics at home and am now adding distractions) .... He seems to be the most even keeled dog in there. He WANTS to play with dogs after a meet and greet (well, he throws himself into a play bow) and is not rattled by the two who are leash reactive so that works for me.


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

my two have only been together since july 2011, my male pitx played the same with my last female gsd, she played VERY rough and taught him to play just as rough and they would always take turns pinning each other by the throat and slamming each other into the ground. to them it was just playing, they each switched roles and took turns pinning each other. if you find dogs that have the same play style that would be a good idea. 
my current two play very rough(those videos were easy play compared to how they normally play which is more like sumo wrestlers slamming into furniture and each other and alot of pinning and grabbing of fur by each of them)


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Carmen, as you recall, you too, had a concern that Kira would "avoid" the rough play"
Anthony I wasn't concerned that she would avoid the rough play--- she did avoid the rough play , and the normal play and the dog who looked at her too long and she ran for cover . All those times you thought that the other members at the dog park weren't sensitive to your dog , or you were disappointed with her that she didn't stand up to the image of GSD.
Just watch that her new found mode of play doesn't back fire -- grip and pin the wrong dog -- big trouble .

Carmen


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when Coconut didn't want to play with Kira
and Kira played with a stuffed animal she could
have been continuing to play. what do you do when
Kira is pinning dogs that she plays with? i don't believe
in or have much faith in the adolescent stage.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> "Carmen, as you recall, you too, had a concern that Kira would "avoid" the rough play"
> Anthony I wasn't concerned that she would avoid the rough play--- she did avoid the rough play , and the normal play and the dog who looked at her too long and she ran for cover . All those times you thought that the other members at the dog park weren't sensitive to your dog , or you were *disappointed with her that she didn't stand up to the image of GSD.*
> *Just watch that her new found mode of play doesn't back fire -- grip and pin the wrong dog -- big trouble .
> *


Yep.

Carmen,
The above statement (in black, bold) is not true. I NEVER felt that Kira didn't stand up to the image of a GSD. I was more concerned that she would become a FA dog, and didn't know how to build her confidence. It was THAT, that I sought advice for.


I agree, with the statement in red, but I feel that there's no danger in this case. The playmates are all her age. She has three or four dogs that I meet there on a regular basis, and the oldest is 11 months. I feel they're all on the same maturity level. They chase and note and roll each other. Only recently has Kira started using her mouth to slow the play tempo, and hold her playmates. Believe me, she gets it too.


Sometimes it's very hard to say what I'm feeling, or observing here in a forum.
I'm obviously not good at it, and that's why I'm always getting in trouble 

I was trying to say that Kira's way of approaching her friends had changed overnight. I never showed mentioned being happy if she were to dominate another dog.
All her friends play on an even keel, but I feel Kira's matured enough of late to engage a little rough play, than usual.
I felt THAT was a positive sign.

Go take a look at the photos.... Do you see any indication of aggression in those images. Those dogs play nicely.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> when Coconut didn't want to play with Kira
> and Kira played with a stuffed animal she could
> have been continuing to play. what do you do when
> Kira is pinning dogs that she plays with? i don't believe
> in or have much faith in the adolescent stage.


Maybe the word "pinning" isn't the right word. She's "mouthing" her dogs and holding them in a playful way. If the other dog seems to be struggling to get up, I move in and nudge her away, and they start chasing each other.

Not sure where everyone's gong with this one.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

"she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again. No growling, no biting, just open mouth with her body weight holding the other dogs down."

What you just said in your last two posts is pretty much the opposite of your first post. People can only give thoughts based on what you write. The older thread you made that "Kira finally grew a pair" sounds like you wanted her to be more like the stereotypical image of a German Shepherd. JMHO


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if the other dog is down and Kira is holding them down
that's pinning. when she plays like that stepping in
as you do is the thing to do. if my dog was pinning
another dog i would move in quickly because the other
dog might not take it for long (seconds). 



Anthony8858 said:


> Maybe the word "pinning" isn't the right word. She's "mouthing" her dogs and holding them in a playful way.
> 
> >>> If the other dog seems to be struggling to get up,<<<
> 
> ...


----------



## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Sasha plays exactly like you've described and I have interpreted it as an extension of some of her fear/insecurity issues. I don't know if this is the case with Kira but Sasha seems to play extra rough and pins the other dog with her mouth over the back of their neck. While we definitely put a stop to this, even though it's in play, she is very nervous of other dogs so I've always seen it as a "I'm gonna play bigger and badder than you first so that you don't scare or hurt me." If the other dog tries to play the same way or pin her at all, she'll panic. Maybe I'm wrong but regardless, we always step in when it escalates to the point of her getting too mouthy. Luckily, she never plays with strange dogs and the owners of her "doggie friends" are very in-tune with their dog so we know when they can no longer play together without having to experience it. Sasha's lost a lot of friends however because once they grow out of the puppy stage, very few dogs will tolerate being pinned by the back of the neck and it's not a risk we're willing to take.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> She might not ever get aggressive but she will start doing dominant behaviors on other dogs. The other dogs are just accepting this pinning, there is no such thing as playful pinning, it's a dominance thing.


I think that as long as the pups are taking turns being the "pinner" and the "pinnee", and neither objects to it, you simply have puppies playing with each other. At least from what I've seen when puppies play with each other, they mouth each other, each take turns chasing and being chased, each take turns being on the top or the bottom, and no one's feelings are hurt and no one feels threatened.

Perhaps "pinning" isn't the right word--it implies the use of force and intent to dominate. When one pup is on its back and the other is on top, mouthing the other's neck, it can sure look like dominance and you could argue that it's practice for dominance, but at this stage it is probably just harmless play. As I said before, you need to step in if someone is getting stressed out, hurt, or angry. Certain dogs may not feel comfortable lying on their back with another dog chewing on their neck, which is understandable, so in that case Kira may learn a lesson about who she can and who she can't do that to.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

ksotto333 said:


> "*she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
> She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again. No growling, no biting, just open mouth with her body weight holding the other dogs down."
> *
> What you just said in your last two posts is pretty much the opposite of your first post. People can only give thoughts based on what you write. The older thread you made that "Kira finally grew a pair" sounds like you wanted her to be more like the stereotypical image of a German Shepherd. JMHO


OK, fair enough. After reading it again, I can understand why some of you may have gotten a bit concerned.
I'm not vey good at forum language.
"not liking it very much" was meant in a way....since the dogs are used to doing it t Kira, now they're getting it (playfully)
That's why I mentioned no biting or growling, etc..... I wanted to paint a happy picture.

And YES, the older thread about growing a pair did teach me something. At that moment, I thought it was a good thing that Kira didn't tolerate having a dog bark in her face, without cowering. So I can understand your reply and respect it 100%.
At that time, the numerous relies made it very clear, that my approach was wrong, and I responded in a positive way. I'm here to learn, and apply.



sashadog said:


> Sasha plays exactly like you've described and I have interpreted it as an extension of some of her fear/insecurity issues. I don't know if this is the case with Kira but Sasha seems to play extra rough and pins the other dog with her mouth over the back of their neck. While we definitely put a stop to this, even though it's in play, she is very nervous of other dogs so I've always seen it as a "I'm gonna play bigger and badder than you first so that you don't scare or hurt me." If the other dog tries to play the same way or pin her at all, she'll panic. Maybe I'm wrong but regardless, we always step in when it escalates to the point of her getting too mouthy. Luckily, she never plays with strange dogs and the owners of her "doggie friends" are very in-tune with their dog so we know when they can no longer play together without having to experience it. Sasha's lost a lot of friends however because once they grow out of the puppy stage, very few dogs will tolerate being pinned by the back of the neck and it's not a risk we're willing to take.


This is how I'm seeing this. I'm not getting a real threat out of their behavior.



Freestep said:


> I think that as long as the pups are taking turns being the "pinner" and the "pinnee", and neither objects to it, you simply have puppies playing with each other. At least from what I've seen when puppies play with each other, they mouth each other, each take turns chasing and being chased, each take turns being on the top or the bottom, and no one's feelings are hurt and no one feels threatened.
> 
> Perhaps "pinning" isn't the right word--it implies the use of force and intent to dominate. When one pup is on its back and the other is on top, mouthing the other's neck, it can sure look like dominance and you could argue that it's practice for dominance, but at this stage it is probably just harmless play. As I said before, you need to step in if someone is getting stressed out, hurt, or angry. Certain dogs may not feel comfortable lying on their back with another dog chewing on their neck, which is understandable, so in that case Kira may learn a lesson about who she can and who she can't do that to.



You're on the money with this.

Keeping in mind Kira's history, I can assure you that all her play is fully supervised. I'm determined to have her fully socialized, and confident. I acknowledge a fear issue, and a soft temperament, and am doing my best to keep every experience a positive one.

Thank you for chiming in.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

*All in a day's play *


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Only problem is that it can go from play to fight in a split second. The other dog not having a good day, or just something else is wrong. Now, I'm also not as worried about the actual fight, but I know how worried you were when Kira was getting pinned that she could become FA, and even though you think these dogs are grown and it won't happen to them, its just one of those things that you never know. She might hold one down for a second too long, and you won't be there in time, and who knows what that can do to the other dog?

To me, its more of a respect thing. I don't like dogs doing that to my dog (nothing to do with a fight breaking out but more of the confidence thing), and so I won't allow my dog to potentially harm another dog (even if their owner is oblivious to it). But I also see the whole friends thing as being fine, my dog has a girlfriend that is a 4 year old great dane. He's known her since he was small enough to fit in her mouth (he tried). Now they will wrestle/pin/hump/ect for hours and they even growl and bark at each other. We just let them do it, I know nothing would ever happen between them.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Only problem is that it can go from play to fight in a split second. The other dog not having a good day, or just something else is wrong. Now, I'm also not as worried about the actual fight, but I know how worried you were when Kira was getting pinned that she could become FA, and even though you think these dogs are grown and it won't happen to them, its just one of those things that you never know. She might hold one down for a second too long, and you won't be there in time, and who knows what that can do to the other dog?
> 
> To me, its more of a respect thing. I don't like dogs doing that to my dog (nothing to do with a fight breaking out but more of the confidence thing), and so I won't allow my dog to potentially harm another dog (even if their owner is oblivious to it). But I also see the whole friends thing as being fine, my dog has a girlfriend that is a 4 year old great dane. He's known her since he was small enough to fit in her mouth (he tried). Now they will wrestle/pin/hump/ect for hours and they even growl and bark at each other. We just let them do it, I know nothing would ever happen between them.


I agree with you 100%. I also appreciate your concern, and the fact that you've taken a personal interest in Kira's well being.

On a bright note, Kira isn't exposed to strange dogs anymore. She has a small circle of friends in her age group and temperament type. I feel very confident that she's safe, and I'm also 100% certain that she won't cross over the line and become aggressive with these other pups.
Of course, I'm watching her like a hawk, and the first sign of an elevation would cause action on my part.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> I agree with you 100%. I also appreciate your concern, and the fact that you've taken a personal interest in Kira's well being.
> 
> On a bright note, Kira isn't exposed to strange dogs anymore. She has a small circle of friends in her age group and temperament type. I feel very confident that she's safe, and I'm also 100% certain that she won't cross over the line and become aggressive with these other pups.
> Of course, I'm watching her like a hawk, and the first sign of an elevation would cause action on my part.


That's where your wrong! It's not Kira I'm worried about, she'll be fine. Its the other dogs I'm trying to protect here!


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> That's where your wrong! It's not Kira I'm worried about, she'll be fine. Its the other dogs I'm trying to protect here!


 
Wow, didn't expect your response.
I'm not seeing or expecting that reaction coming from Kira. She doesn't even growl. She's a marshmellow.

In the past, (as Carmen mentioned) if another dog would as much as stare her down, she would disengage and retreat from playing. She's very soft.

Are you suggesting that she could simply snap out of her timid ways, and suddenly become a danger to other dogs?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony " She's very soft" " her timid ways" -- for this reason she may be in for more than she bargained for and then what - how do you recover . The underdog may call it "enough" and put her in line - or be boisterous and turn the tables and pin her .
-- referring to your Kira/breeding thread from a short time ago - here is a reason not to breed --


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Wow, didn't expect your response.
> I'm not seeing or expecting that reaction coming from Kira. She doesn't even growl. She's a marshmellow.
> 
> In the past, (as Carmen mentioned) if another dog would as much as stare her down, she would disengage and retreat from playing. She's very soft.
> ...


Lol I was just kidding around. She's not going to be a danger, but I know I don't want my dog "picking on" or potentially ruining another dog's confidence or causing them to react in an aggressive way. I was just stating I'm not really worried about Kira, she'll be fine from this point on. She's a GSD, and if she's anything like mine, when he gets growled at, its on. I don't worry about him at all, its the other dog I'm scarred for. Also, if a lab growls at him, or is being dominant, and he reacts in any way just to defend himself, take a guess at who's going to be the bad guy?

Since you don't know what Kira's reaction would be to a dog getting aggressive with her, it might be nicer to keep her safe, but I have a feeling she would react the same way most adult GSDs would.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony " She's very soft" " her timid ways" -- for this reason she may be in for more than she bargained for and then what - how do you recover . The underdog may call it "enough" and put her in line - or be boisterous and turn the tables and pin her .
> -- referring to your Kira/breeding thread from a short time ago - here is a reason not to breed --


 
Carmen, this is what's confusing me.

In one breath, we're concerned that she may harm another dog. In another breath, we're concerned that she may be in for more than she bargained for.

If she plays rough, we're concerned. If she avoids, we're concerned.

What's right or wrong here? I'm not getting the point.

Do I keep Kira in a bubble?


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

No, she could become a typical bully. She will start something she can't really finish unless another dog is submissive or fearful. And if she gets put into her place by a stronger dog she still has a good chance to become fear aggressive because next time she would go for a preemptive strike. But all these possible scenarios are in the future assuming you are proud and encouraging of her 'real GSD' behavior.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Carmen, this is what's confusing me.
> 
> In one breath, we're concerned that she may harm another dog. In another breath, we're concerned that she may be in for more than she bargained for.
> 
> ...


There are just so many concerns when you don't know what to expect out of your dog. When mine was a puppy, I knew I could expect him to submit to most dogs bigger than him. He just wanted to play, and if he was told to back off, he would. Now, when he wants to play, and he's told to back off, he'll press the issue, and press, and press. He's taken down great danes, st. bernards, and many other dogs that are bigger than him, he just doesn't care because he knows he can handle himself. I'm not worried about his reaction because I know what to expect, and when I see him getting to the "breaking point" I pull him out and give him a break. With Kira being 9 months old, she's maturing and you have no idea what she will do. Carmen is worried about her reverting to her old ways, I'm more worried about her becoming a big GSD (I expect it from some of our other conversations) and not physically hurting another dog, but maybe more psychologically hurting them.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Since you don't know what Kira's reaction would be to a dog getting aggressive with her, it might be nicer to keep her safe, but I have a feeling she would react the same way most adult GSDs would.


 Most pet GSDs I've seen run and hide behind the owner. It's a good thing, I guess.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

GSD07 said:


> Most pet GSDs I've seen run and hide behind the owner. It's a good thing, I guess.


There was a part of me that wished my dog would stay a little more submissive as he grew, but it didn't happen and I accepted it. We don't go to the park as often, and we play fetch and hike together now much more because I don't want to be the guy at the park peeling his dog off of everyone else's because he keeps wanting to control them. I wish more dogs would run to their owners when issues come up instead of snapping and fights breaking out, dog parks would be much friendlier, and there would probably not be any issues with any breed being called "aggressive" or have bsl.

As much as it shows the dog doesn't have the correct temperament to be bred, its a much easier dog to handle for a pet owner, and its not a dog that would put our breed in the headlines for anything aggressive.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Oh, I don't disagree. I just commented on the 'most GSD' part.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> No, she could become a typical bully. She will start something she can't really finish unless another dog is submissive or fearful. And if she gets put into her place by a stronger dog she still has a good chance to become fear aggressive because next time she would go for a preemptive strike. But all these possible scenarios are in the future assuming you are *proud and encouraging of her 'real GSD' behavior*.


What is "Real GSD behavior"?
Just curious



martemchik said:


> There are just so many concerns when you don't know what to expect out of your dog. When mine was a puppy, I knew I could expect him to submit to most dogs bigger than him. He just wanted to play, and if he was told to back off, he would. Now, when he wants to play, and he's told to back off, he'll press the issue, and press, and press. He's taken down great danes, st. bernards, and many other dogs that are bigger than him, he just doesn't care because he knows he can handle himself. I'm not worried about his reaction because I know what to expect, and when I see him getting to the "breaking point" I pull him out and give him a break. With Kira being 9 months old, she's maturing and you have no idea what she will do. Carmen is worried about her reverting to her old ways, I'm more worried about her becoming a big GSD (I expect it from some of our other conversations) and not physically hurting another dog, but maybe more psychologically hurting them.





GSD07 said:


> Most pet GSDs I've seen run and hide behind the owner. It's a good thing, I guess.


I haven't seen this.

According to most around here, that's not typical, and should be dealt with.
It's OK for the owner to protect their dog from a loose dog, but I don't expect any dog to run and hide at the site of another dog.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> I haven't seen this.
> 
> According to most around here, that's not typical, and should be dealt with.
> It's OK for the owner to protect their dog from a loose dog, but I don't expect any dog to run and hide at the site of another dog.


I haven't seen it either, but I'd prefer it if more dogs were like that. There are owners (like the ones on this forum) that understand aggressive/reactive behavior but for most of the pet owning public they have no idea what it is and just see their dog being protective, or from the other side the dog is being aggressive. No one looks at the behavior and signs leading up to the breaking point, they just react to the breaking point.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with

so my comment , remembering posts when Kira was first introduced, is that she has always had a problem , in "reading" other dogs -- now she seems locked into a one-pattern play mode , which is not going to suit every play mate for reasons of rank or physical size-match up.

all well and good to show pictures of a willing play mate that is a bully breed , insensitive around a neck as thick as my waist . Also , this playmate is welcoming this kind of tom foolery and plays the victim willingly 







Click this bar to view the full image.









*Her victim calls for backup, but the mauling continues.*







Click this bar to view the full image.









Kira is fine because she is on top . 

In play the roles flip -- how is she when the victim becomes the victor and Kira is on the bottom being pinned.

Problem is there are dogs whose owners don't even use choke (slide) collars for fear of damaging the trachea .


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with
> 
> so my comment , remembering posts when Kira was first introduced, is that she has always had a problem , in "reading" other dogs -- now she seems locked into a one-pattern play mode , which is not going to suit every play mate for reasons of rank or physical size-match up.
> 
> ...


Carmen,
I fully understand what you're saying.
Believe me, her friend "Skruffy" the 90 lb 10 month Golden, taught her the choke hold. Kira gets it, and wrestles her way out too.

But I do understand what you're saying.

I'm curious.... Do you let your dogs play? If so, what's it like? Do they play differently than other dogs?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> There are just so many concerns when you don't know what to expect out of your dog. When mine was a puppy, I knew I could expect him to submit to most dogs bigger than him. He just wanted to play, and if he was told to back off, he would. Now, when he wants to play, and he's told to back off, he'll press the issue, and press, and press. *He's taken down great danes, st. bernards, and many other dogs that are bigger than him, he just doesn't care because he knows he can handle himself.* I'm not worried about his reaction because I know what to expect, and when I see him getting to the "breaking point" I pull him out and give him a break. With Kira being 9 months old, she's maturing and you have no idea what she will do. Carmen is worried about her reverting to her old ways, I'm more worried about her becoming a big GSD (I expect it from some of our other conversations) and not physically hurting another dog, but maybe more psychologically hurting them.


 
Sounds like your dog is quite a fighter! Taking down dogs that are twice as big as he is or bigger. Either that or else he just met real wimpy bigger dogs. When he takes down a St Bernard, does he hold them down or eventually let the big guy up?


----------

