# My GSD HATES other DOGS



## GSDog

Major is now 2yrs old. He is a beautiful GS and now weighs 110lbs. In a nutshell, when he was small, we use to go to this dog park. Till one day other masters didnt bother taking care of their dogs when they would jump on major,bit, attack, drag etc etc..Yes you want your dog to socialize but after all that I quit going for his sake and for stupid Masters. Anyhow, today when he sees another dog we always have to watch him. He walks with a sprong collar and also has that lease that goes around his nose. So he is double protected and so are we. He wouldnt move with all that around his neck and nose. When we let him out in the backyard which is fenced except the front part cause its a driveway we share with the neighbour. 

About 2 weeks ago, my husband took him out in the back for his business and major saw a lady walking her lab and our dog ran across the road and jumped on her dog and the poor woman was yelling and yelling and our dog all he wanted is to attack her dog. My husband grabbed our dog by his choker and put major in the house and saw the lady was ok but shocken up cause i think who wouldnt if you would see a GS of 110lbs running towards you. Major listens to me and less my husband. He does what I say and with only one command. He NEVER crosses the street with me and i mean he really listens. But for the first time he didnt. He charge across the street attacked a lady's little dog. I dont know what or how it happened her dog was on a lease up in the air like 6feet. I grabbed major and choked him till he couldnt breath. The poor lady walked the other way. I told her I was soooooo sooooo sorry. I just didnt know what to say. She was crying and said she will come back. I put major in the house. I yelled at him ON YOUR BED which he is still there since the pass 2hrs. But when i put him in the house i saw the lady walking in the park full of snow and hard to walk on and told her to come and see me. She did and I told her that i was so sorry again and she understood. But I told her there is nothing to understand. What my dog did i out of line. I told her he had no right and can not do that.She saw i was scared too and so was she,. Her dog didnt even want me to go near them. He was growling and barking at me which he never does as she said. I told her if there is anything to come back and see me. And again not enough said, I again said I am so sorry. 

Is there anyone out there that had the same problem and solved it?

Please dont tell me he needs training or a muzzle. I already know that. He is trained, and yes he does have a muzzle but when we bring him out for a pee in the backyard we dont put it on. He plays all the time with us in the backyard. He must of see the lady's dog through the crack of my door with I opened the door to let him in cause he backed up. Major plays with my brother's GS and our cat. He LOVES humans so there is NO danger towards any human. He simply hates other dogs. I walk him often and stopped by the dog park but like 50 feet from the dog park i make him sit down and let him watch the other dogs play so he can see dogs can play and get along all together and dont have to attack one another. A few people let me go near their dog but opposite sides so nothing happens and major still wants to eat them. Not because i dont try to get near other dogs so he can smell them and see all is fine. He just doesnt care. I do what we are suppose to do and be socialized and all for the pass 2 yrs but he just doesnt care. I know now that he will have no choice to wear a muzzle when he goes out even for a pee or anywhere. I dont trust him anymore. For him to backup and seen a dog from a crack of a door and crossed a street which he could of get hit, Is still not enough. The muzzle and if he does it again I hate to say it I dont want to take any chance and will have to put him down.


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## HeidiW

Can you fence in your back yard completely ? You say the back is already fenced in, why now fence the whole thing in? Are you renting ? Or maybe you should buy him an outdoor kennel? He needs to be controlled so this never happens again.


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## GSDog

No this is my house.The way it is made to go in the back it like one big driveway for you and the neighbour. So you cant really close it off. And but fluke we are selling the house to move to another province. Since it is winter, we cant fence all right now. But if we were staying, we would close it off and shorten the yard. The issue is not just the fence, but a behaviour. This dog listens just to me to perfection. But for the first time I saw him go like in a trance like a mind of his own. Ive never seen him like that. If i raise my voice, he wouldnt even move an inch. This was different.


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## Jax08

I don't have an answer for you. I would not let him out without a leash.

How does he react to dogs when he is leashed? When he is away from the house? Is he "protecting" the house? Was he ever attacked?


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## onyx'girl

First of all, a vet check with thyroid testing sent to Dr. Jean Dodds would be what I would do. 
If all comes back fine, then I would try to find a qualified behaviorist to work with me on how to handle my boy. 
Using a prong and a headcollar suggest to me that you are a bit intimidated by him, and he knows it? Do you practice NILIF?

Counter conditioning him to other dogs so he is neutral when around them can be done, though with baby steps and it is time consuming. 
There are many threads here on dog/dog reactivity, and good books listed in the threads. 
I would read a bit more on others experiences, and maybe you'll be able to use their methods to help your boy.

There was a recent thread on rage syndrome, has your dog had other incidences where he acted as if he couldn't hear you "trancelike"?
I wish you luck, I have a female that has issues, too.


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## Prinzsalpha

He needs to be absolutely under control once he is outside. Bring stimulation to him slowly with you controlling his actions. He needs to learn proper behavior when meeting new dogs. That is under your control. So yes I believe you need to begin training classes with him. He certainly has alot of potential to be the best dog you have ever had but patience, proper correction and training is a full time job at this point. You either decide to put the effort into him or not. I dont believe putting a muzzle on him is the answer everytime you go out. You really need to put all your effort into getting past this situation. An experienced gsd trainer who is recommended is best or a behavorist.


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## GSDog

He's always on a leash. 6foot man made leather leash with bigger clips. I use to have dobermans and never once ive had problems like this dog. Major never goes anywhere without his leash cause we live in a big city. This dog does NOT scare me at all. I have never allowed any dog to take over me. So I know I am nowhere near being intimidated by him or any dog. I had to jump in middle of dog fights a few times to split up dogs cause their masters were too stupid to take over control of their dogs. Yes that is why my dog remembers when he got bitten and drag younger. I was more scare for the lady than her dog or my dog. I didnt want her to panic cause it would make it worst between dogs. And the only time the dog was like you said or like ive mentioned above gone into an trancelike mode is a few weeks ago with my husband. Did the same thing to him. Ran across the street jump on a golden lab. But since my husband is stronger he grabbed our dog and put him down to the ground fast. That is why i walk my dog with a prong. Not because i am intimiated i use a prong it is because he is 110lbs and if he decide to go after another dog with just a plain choker, yes i still can hold him back but with a prong he wont dare go for it. It is for my protection and for his not to cross any street.


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## trudy

I am sorry this happened but from now on attach him to an outside long lead before you open the door. Have the long lead attached to something very strong and if he goes he will self correct. Go out with him but make sure you don't get tripped up by the lead or chain and maybe a few strong corrections will remind him of the boundaries. Then when you have time or when you move ensure you have a fully fenced enclosure for him. Also start obedience classes or agility or anything that makes him work and think. Check out the schutzhund clubs and see if you can go for the obedience first, and then tracking. Good luck


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## onyx'girl

When you are dealing with a reactive dog, correcting him during the reaction will just ramp up his aggression. 
What worked for us was re-directing the focus back to me and treating the dog, praising her for focusing back to me. I didn't correct her for her reacting, she would just see it as coming from the other dog. I tried to avoid her trancelike behavior by getting her focus back to me before her trance began. 
If your dog isn't food motivated, then a high value toy, or tug may work. 
This book Control Unleashed
is great and will help if you work at it.


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## Prinzsalpha

He is in his teenage years and all full of himself. He is taking charge. I am glad to hear you are firm....but a little ob needs to be addressed. Is he excerised daily? I think that could help relieve his stamina he has pent up. A tired dog is a good dog. I use the prong also whenever we go on a social run, my guy is like a happy camper when he sees it as he knows we are going out with him. He is much more behaved with it on. I would not allow that trance like focus when you see it, he is honing in on his prey. Snap him out of it.


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## GSDog

hmmmmm, it is so hard to explain because aside from this issue, this is like the most perfect dog when it comes to commands. Yes I know this sounds dumb and you are probably saying if he was so perfect why is he doing that. When I walk him with his prong like you say Myoung,he kbows we are going out and also when i put it on i bring him in the backyard first and he will go for #2 cause he knows if he goes for #2 that means he is going for a long walk. I make him go first before walking him even though i always carry pooping bags with me. That is how smart he is. hmmm unless he is just odd. When i walk him and he meets other dogs cause i live infront of a big park he will get like in a alert mode and the hair goes up but right away i hit his side cheek so he looks at me and i tell him : leave it alone it's a baby. Cause we say that about our cat when he plays rough with him. You say baby and he just nibbles or backs off. I know when i walk him i have to make sure he is always off his alert mode when we are just walking. 

I couldnt praise him when i ran across the street. He was still wanting to go after the other dog till I choked him hard enough with his regular choker. Which he has on all the time. Cant leave any big dog without a choker. It happened so fast and all this happened within seconds and ended in seconds. 20max in all. But was a long 20second. I will be calling the person that sold him to me. He trains K9 only. I know he will help me out.


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## onyx'girl

> Quote: He was still wanting to go after the other dog till I choked him hard enough with his regular choker. Which he has on all the timeCant leave any big dog without a choker.


This thread may change your mind about leaving a collar on:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1171605&page=1&fpart=1


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## GSDog

I would never leave my dog without a choker. Dont get me wrong but a dog of 110lbs you need some kind of a choker on him. And he is that type of GS that has like a huge thick flabby skin and great big chest. So when i say i had to pull in his choker, i had to use 2 hands cause he has one of them huge necks. A dog is a dog. You never know what they can do or think. They can be the best trained dog but all they need is that spilt sec that your back is turned like mine was tonight. We love our dog but at that size for a GS, i rather he keeps his choker on.


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## StGeorgeK9

I personally prefer a pinch collar over the choker, especially with a large dog. I am under 5 feet myself, so I do understand needing to get an upper hand in a hurry, they are actually safer for the dog AND provide better control then the choke chain. http://www.leerburg.com has a good website that discusses proper fitting, but really, no training collar should be left on a dog without supervision, if they get hung up on something it could be deadly.


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## Riley's Mom

Did everyone miss the fact that first the husband owner choked the dog while removing it from the attack? THEN the wife owner choked the dog until he couldn't breathe AFTER the incident was over and the dog had already been removed from the area? Did everyone miss that the owner yelled at the dog AFTER the incident was over and then kept the dog sitting on it's bed for at least 2 hours even longer AFTER the incident was over ... NONE of which the dog understands is consequences for what occured minutes before that? 

I'm not excusing the dog's behavior, it does need to be dealt with but NOT like this! The moment this incident was over, it was over in the dogs mind. Taking him into the house, yelling at him and then making him "go to his room" is not the answer. He's not human, he can't put these two things together and understand "uh oh, I did a bad thing so now I have to think about it in my room." He certainly does not understand the yelling or what was said in the yelling. He can't speak nor understand the English language other than a few commands. So, the owner managed to blow off some verbal steam, put themselves back into control freak mode with the 2+ hours of sitting on the bed ... and physically abuse their dog ... all of which are things that were totally NOT understood by the recipient.

Ok, then did everyone miss that even though they have an issue with the fence that keeps it from being a complete fence, their dog apparently had no leash on? It's up to the OWNER to leash their dog if they don't have a fence. So, the problem here is the OWNER not having their dog under control (and I don't mean verbally) and then punishing the dog for being a dog. 

This is a DOG - a dog is first and foremost an animal and his instincts (which cannot be bred out of him) will take over under the right circumstances. There is no such thing as being able to trust and control an un-confined/unleashed dog 100% of the time. This "My dog never does anything unless I say so." mentality is a load of crap and belongs to people who have to much ego. This is a perfect example of "Gee, sometimes they do!" Anyone who's ego is so big that they believe their dog is a puppet on a string doesn't deserve to have a dog. This is a living being, living beings sometimes have a mind of their own and no living being is perfect. 

Does your human kid or your spouse for that matter ALWAYS do what you tell them to? Either of these humans can understand English and yet does what he/she wants to do regardless of your orders sometimes. Why would you expect a dog to be any different?

The owner already admits the dog hates other dogs so why in the world would you have him in a yard he can get out of without a leash? 

In my opinion, what happened is NOT the dog's fault, it lies soley with the owner. I'm sorry if that upsets anyone including the owner but this kind of dog ownership and way of treating a dog really makes me angry. Sure, the dog was out of line but more-so is the owner for 1) expecting perfection from an animal and 2) punishing the animal inappropriately and in a way the dog cannot possibly understand so it did no good anyway. 

Putting a dog down for the owner's lack of proper understanding of dog behavior, and handling is WRONG WRONG WRONG. It's NOT the dog's fault here yet you're willing to kill him for what you didn't handle properly?

I'm out of here, this is just making me more angry the more I write.


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## Amanda39

I am new to this forum. PLEASE could someone help me? I have a 4 yr old GSD named Meg. My husband always fed and walked her and he was her 'leader'. My husband left me 2 weeks ago and i am left with a dog that barks all the time when people pass the house, wont do anything i tell her too. I take her out to the park for an hour a day (to try and get rid of the energy). she pulls me down the road to the car, jumps about in the car like a mad thing, we get to the park, she comes off the lead and is Ok until she sees another dog and then she sees red and goes after it aggressively. I love her and dont want to get rid of her but could someone please advise me of the best way forward, as there are so many problems with the dog (and the owner of course) that it all seems overwhelming and my fear is that she will bite someone or a dog and have to be put down because i do not know how to handle her. Please help me. any advice will be very gratefully recieved. My email is [email protected] ...many Thanks Amanda


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## Jax08

Amanda..you should start your own thread for this. There are alot of ppl on here that can help you. The first thing anyone is going to suggest is to get a trainer. So start a new thread for her and you'll gets lots of help.


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## Amanda39

Thank you very much for the advice Michelle. How do i go about getting a thread?


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## Jax08

See at the top where it says Topic Options? Click on the Arrow and choose New Topic. Then you can fill out the header and ask all the questions you need. You should explain any training she's had too.


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## Amanda39

Thank you Michelle. i will have a go at that. Much appreciated X


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## GSDog

Ok Ms Riley's Mom, lets get one thing straight. One thing is what YOU probably think what happened. YOU werent there. YOU dont know ME! Before saying all what you've just typed you should know a dog is a dog. Yes he or she arent human. I DONT yell at dogs nor MY family. I raised my voice to my dog and told him to get on his bed. Yes he knew he did something wrong and NO that i will never believe that once the insident is over the dog will forget. WRONG! A dog does NOT forget what he just done. Dogs are not stupid they are extremely smarter than what humans think. Dogs cant talk but they will tell you what they want in their own way and a good master will know what their dogs want. My yard is fenced but not the front section. And incase you are not aware of dog training, a dog should listen to a master WITHOUT a fence. A good trained dog is NOT the fence that will make him understand but just not to make him go where he wants to go. It is NOT the fence that makes a good dog. My dog is always on a lease. I NEVER walk him without a lease. I live infront of a huge park and 3/4 of these dog ower's dog are not on leases. I cant afford to take a chance like that because i do had a GS. 

You dont even know what my house looks like or how big of land I have. From the backyard to the front of the street there is at least 60feet. So we are ALL human, i had my back turned for one second and he went the other way down 60feet. 

And putting my dog down cause the incident just happen. But I do believe if a dog does jump and attacks a child or anyone, I would put him down. We love our dog but it is not our dog that will determine what he wants to do. And my kids are all grown up. And YES they did what they were told. I work with children everyday. I work in the education field. The problem with today's kids that they dont do what they are told to once or maybe ok 2x ends up like they are today. Uncontrollable and ends up telling the parents where to go. Dogs are like kids. They have to listen and do what they are told to do and have fun and go out and play when it's time. 

So people have dogs and think they know everything. Amazing. We all make mistakes in life. Humans like animals. I spoke the the trainer that i bought the dog from as a pup and he trains GS as for K9 and S/R. That's all he does. I am sure he knows a lot more than me or you and others about GS. Most of his K9 are all well known. He said I did the right thing to grab the dog immediately grab his choker and pull on it so he gets out of his aggression mode. He said the same thing that dogs DONT FORGET what they just done or dogs would be used as K9 or rescue dogs or dogs for the blinds. etc... they have a good memory. That is why my dog is like this cause when he was smaill other dogs jumped him, bite him, dragged him and threw him around. I grabbed him and walked out of that park and never put foot in any park to this day. So he does have a good memory, he didnt forget what the other dogs did to him. This is only 2x he's done that. He never leaves the lot. Doesnt ever go near the sidwalk either. He is well trained but I dont know why he did that and it is 2x too many for me. This is new and we've been working on it the day after. He will be going back to training for a few sessions with other dogs so he can loose that aggressioness. 

Like you mentioned in your post Riley's Mom : 
(I'm out of here, this is just making me more angry the more I write) 

You might as well not put in your 2 cents. 

Sorry if I've said things that offened others. Just that I dont like people that gives their 2 cents and arent even in the shoes of the other person. And that will talk about what kind of kids or spouse I have if they listen or not. 

Thank you all your posts. It was must appreciated.


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## onyx'girl

GSDog The k9 trainer you bought your dog from may very well be a "trainer" but there are better ways to handle the situation, not choking the dog. Obviously it didn't fix him, did it?
Slow counter conditioning works, but it is time consuming and many k9 trainers would rather take the compulsion based way as it is fast and quick, but usually doesn't change the behavior, just in the moment. 
Did you read the link I posted about the dangers of collars???
It was for the safety of your dog, I hope you never find him choked to death by his own collar.
I hope you find what you are looking for, I can tell you won't_ see_ it here, even though most of us are in agreement that the way you've handled the aggression your dog showed there are better ways than choking and alpha rolling...all that did was make your dog want to get at other dogs all the more, as his frustration level was excelled by the actions of his handler.
Open your mind a bit and read about dog reactive dogs. 
my 2 cents for whatever it isn't worth...


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## Liesje

I'm not sure what you want us to say.....you're shooting down some good suggestions with excuses. What sort of advice are you looking for?

Not all GSDs like other dogs and there's nothing wrong with that. My male GSD is dog aggressive. He does not attack other dogs, but he has no desire to make friends with other dogs and he will fight back if one gets in his face. I simply manage the environment so that he only ever has access to my other dogs (who he has never had a fight with and does not have to be separated from) and more importantly, no stray dogs or off leash dogs can approach him or get on my property and provoke him. We rent the house we live in but our landlords agreed to us putting up a fence that is easy to take down when we leave and will not destroy the property (it's not attached to the house and has no large post holes or cement blocks). Any other time I have my dog outside of my yard, he's either on private property that is fenced, or he is on a leash. It's really pretty simple. If your dog is dog aggressive and has a history of unprovoked attack, the responsibility is on you to contain your dog. If you cannot fence him in, then use a long line or a tie-out to contain him.

I would also work on the bond and the respect between you and your dog. Do some positive training and some motivational games to get your dog focused more on you and not on other dogs. Even though my male is dog aggressive, I can heel him off leash with no collar on past other dogs and have him do a long down-stay within 5 feet of another dog. You need to give your dog a reasons to respect you and listen to you, not just physically coercing him into submission (which usually does not end well....one day the dog will have had enough...).


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## Jax08

I guess whether you like to hear it or not, the fact is your dog left your yard and has attacked two dogs. Luckily, neither the dogs nor the people were seriously hurt. That means your dog did not obey you. You did not have control of him.

So, the bottom line is he can not go outside unless he is secured with a leash attached to a person. To do otherwise is putting Major, other dogs and possibly people in danger until you get a handle on this.

I am going thru the same thing with Jax right now. She is scared of other dogs so she will attack first. However, she does not chase the other dogs down to attack. It's only when she's crowded. I htink there is a huge difference in her approach based on Major's approach. It's entirely possible his aggression was not caused by being attacked.


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## Riley's Mom

GSDog - no I wasn't there. I go by what you said. You CHOKED your dog to the point of NOT BEING ABLE TO BREATHE which means you ALMOST KILLED your dog - intentional or not. There is NO excuse for that, it's called animal cruelty and if I knew where you lived, I would turn you in. 

You say you love your dog. How do you think you would have felt if after you loosened the choke hold, your dog was no longer breathing and could not be recesitated? As in your dog was DEAD by YOUR OWN hand? I don't know about you, but I would be HORRIFIED to know that I MURDERED my own dog and I do not know how I could live with myself afterwards.

Granted, people are human and can definitely over-react to any situation. Your hubby removed the dog from the situation before anyone or any dog got hurt apparently. Your husband removing the dog from the situation by grabbing the collar is one thing. YOU choking the dog AFTER the fact and punishing him by "going to his room" is unacceptable and didn't do a darn bit of good. He will not learn what you want him to learn from that, but he will learn to fear you. Your dog's reaction that you think he knew what he did wrong was only his reaction to your angry energy. He did NOT understand AT ALL what it was all about. By the time the dog was brought back into the house and you administered his punishment had to be minutes at least. What he got punished for was whatever happened immediately before he was punished, not what happened minutes before that. So if you did what you did as he was walking into the house, what he learned from that was walking into the house can get him choked and made to sit on his bed for a very long time. A dog associates pain or good from what he's doing AT the time the pain or good treat is administered. You REALLY need to learn and understand that yes a dog does remember, but WHAT he remembers is what happens at the time he's doing whatever he's doing. He cannot reason like a human, he cannot tell time, he does not associate that what he did 5 minutes ago is why he's being treated or punished 5 minutes later. 

A better way to have handled this would have been for hubby to remove the dog from the situation, but instead of taking, dragging or however he did into the house, he could have removed the dog, moved back 10 feet or so and had your dog sit and calm down while he caught his breath and took a little time to calm himself as I'm sure he was probably just a little shaky having just broken up a bad situation. Then when both of them were calm, just have your dog remain there for a couple of minutes, praising him for sitting good, laying good and being calm in the presence of another dog. Then at that point, hubby just calmly tells him to get up and they both walk to the yard/house. It has to end on a POSITIVE note if you want to help him get over his reactiveness. This is much easier to accomplish if the dog is on a leash rather than a human trying to hold down/back a reactive dog. Holding the dog back only increases the anxiety and the dog's need to attack the other dog.

Chances are that your dog reacted the way he did is because he's afraid of other dogs, dogs that do not live in your home, strange dogs - not because he's a vicious dog. He's considered a reactive dog in current terms. He cannot learn to not be afraid of other dogs unless you help him get over his fear.

Correcting a dog properly and in a positive manner should occur AT THE TIME of the improper action or offense, not even moments after it's happened. What your husband did should have been the end of it if he was to anxious about what your dog was doing to do a positive correction at the time the dog was grabbed. It's a learning process to change the human emotions at the time something like this happens. To keep one's wits about them during a dog attack is learned behavior. We normally freak out and start screaming at the dog which only escalates the bad situation, it amps the dogs up. Excitement begets more excitement.

NO ONE should EVER choke their dog PERIOD. If you want your dog to be afraid of you for your actions that's what you're going to get. A fearful dog is a dangerous dog and the owner creating the fear is an owner who stands to be bitten by their own dog. A fear aggressive dog is the worst kind of aggression. When a dog is afraid he goes into INSTINCTUAL survival mode to protect himself. His thought process is "I'll get you before you get me."

No I don't know your living situation, but you have stated plainly that you do not have a secure fence. The dog needs to have that or be some other way secured when he goes out.

I repeat, a dog is an animal first. The thought process that a dog should listen to it's owner is correct. But it needs to be expanded to understand dog BEHAVIOR which is very different from dog TRAINING. As you have seen, your dog's instincts kicked in which is the bottom line - he reverted to being an animal. That has absolutely nothing to do with training him. He is a dog, and like humans is NOT perfect and never will be. To put expectations of perfection on people is wrong and so is it to put it on a dog. No one, no dog is perfect. 

You obviously don't like hearing that you've reacted improperly to a situation. You totally over-reacted and that's just a plain fact. It doesn't make you a bad person, just your actions were wrong and now you need to learn how to handle a reactive dog properly and you will have more luck doing it properly than you will doing it the way you are doing things now. You need to learn new and proper ways to handle your dog. You need to learn the difference between dog behavior and dog training and you more importantly need to learn dog behavior itself. 

It was not my intention to offend you but when I hear someone almost kills their dog over him being a dog that really angers me. You are posting information that you harmed your own dog on a board where loving, caring and positive nurturing are of the utmost importance. What kind of a reaction did you think you'd get? 

You say you agree a dog is a dog yet you treated him like a human with "go to your room" and making him stay there for hours? A dog's attention span is seconds at best. Your trainer said your hubby did right to remove the dog the way he did but what did your trainer say about YOUR reaction? Or did you not tell him that? You must also learn to understand that just because someone calls themselves a trainer doesn't mean they are good at what they do. Perhaps yours is, I don't know. But I can't believe ANY REAL, GOOD trainer would condone what YOU did.

As for putting a dog down if it bites a human. That is way old school and people are working VERY hard to make those that believe this understand it's NOT necessary to put your dog down just because it bites. Dogs don't just bite people for no reason. People get bitten because of what people do around dogs. I won't go into all of that, it would take way to long. For brevity you can think of it this way - most accidents are caused by driver error - most dog bites are caused by human error. This is because most humans don't understand dog BEHAVIOR which is totally different than dog training.


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## Riley's Mom

Oh, just to clarify - I *have* been in your shoes, my dog used to be very reactive to other dogs and through hard work and positive methods, my dog is doing tremendously better. I will not ever trust he will be 100% because far as I'm concerned that's unrealistic. I will never believe I can just cut him loose with other dogs, although he has been loose w/others in a controlled environment inside a fence with some heavy duty supervision. But he can now walk by many a dog and he just looks. He's had little yappers on the other side of the fence go nuts and he's intense but he will keep walking as long as I do. I have sat him down in front of excited dogs and let him watch and he does.

I also make sure he is let out only within a fully fenced yard or on a leash under my control. For free time off leash and unconfined, we go to a field several times a week that is totally off the beaten path and pretty much where unless you're looking you're not going to see us and where *I* can see any other dogs/people well in advance so that I can get hold of my dog if necessary. When we get out of the car we immediately go off to the far away side of the field from the road.

In the two years we've been going to this field there has only ever been one other dog seen off in the distance about 2 city blocks away. It's kind of like our own private dog park and nobody to date has bothered us. People drive by and slow down to watch my two rompin' and stompin' - I think they enjoy watching them play for a few minutes and then they slowly drive on. Some semi drivers have even stopped their rigs to watch for awhile. I feel that just because I have a reactive dog, does not mean he should be confined to life in a house and very small back yard for his entire life. He needs to be allowed to be a dog and have some fun as often as I can give that to him in as safe a manner as I possibly can.

He's also bitten a man and we never once considered putting him down for that. The man bitten didn't even want me to call the police, but I did.


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## LisaT

Riley's Mom is right, there are all sorts of things here that have gone wrong. GSDog, please don't over-react to her initial post. When you post on a forum for advice, it's usually a good idea to really listen to what folks are saying, even if they are a bit reactive when they are saying it. Her reaction in her post wasn't so much at what you posted, but that no one else picked up on some of the obvious issues that should be discussed.

In addition to many of the things that Riley's Mom mentioned, I would just like to say that it sounds like your dog had the opportunity to draw blood, and he didn't. Which means that I think HATE is the wrong word here. What we have here is a failure to communicate and to interpret.

Also, accept the fact that he is not trained. He may be obedient in some areas, but he is not yet trained. Don't take that personally, it's just a matter of fact. You stated that you did with your dog what you are supposed to do in terms of socializing, etc., but that's not quite right. You have done what you thought you were supposed to do, but it hasn't work, so you try something else. LOTS of dogs here are dog reactive - I have one, Rileys Mom has been through this, etc. 

Btw, if you got the dog from someone that trains working K9's (or would like his dogs to be like that), that actually may be the initial cause of your boy's problem (speaking from big-time experience here).

Aggressive techniques will not solve this problem.

The first thing on my list would be a thyroid panel, being sure that they include a TgAA.


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## Riley's Mom

I can't believe I forgot about the thyroid ... well, yes I can the whole thing upset me ... but LisaT is right ... please do get your dog's thyroid tested. If he's got hypothyroidism that could be the biggest contributor to his aggressive tendencies. This is one thing that a lot of people don't know about and makes for a huge reason dogs are aggressive and wind up being put to death when they don't need to be. Thanks for adding that LisaT and I will add to that, ask your vet to send the blood to http://www.hemopet.org for testing, they are the best in the country. There's some paperwork to complete on their web site if you send the blood there.

Because you got the dog from a K9 trainer, more than likely and probably 100% more than likely it's a working line dog which tend to be much more reactive (and over-reactive) and aggressive than a showline dog. Many people getting GSD's don't know that either. They think a GSD is a GSD and the differences between showline and working dog can be tremendous. I know I am not a person that could properly handle a working line dog and I wouldn't even want to try. I could not give the dog a proper home. He needs more exercise and structure than a showline dog, too. Just letting him out in the back yard to pee and taking him on a walk even every day is not nearly enough exercise and structure for a working line GSD and so he's got a lot of pent up energy that is contributing to his anxiety levels which he may not have a proper way to vent. I believe you also said he was attacked sometime in his life, this guy's got a lot of stuff working against him that you can help him with if you open your mind to learning how and what to do.

I had some very old-school ideas about dogs, grew up with dogs (and learned from a Father who's still living in the dark ages about dogs) so I felt I was perfectly fine going from Yorkies, Cocker Spaniels and Schnoodles on up to GSD's. The word "research' never entered my mind. Enter Riley and in short order I found I needed help and a lot of it, and wound up here and these boards have been a tremendous help. I might not like what everyone says or how they say it, but there are many people here with LOTS more GSD experience than me. Like it or not, I *do* pay attention.

A dog's a dog, right? WRONG! I've been on a roller coaster learning adventure since about 3-4 mos after Riley came to live with us and he shocked the living doo-doo out of me for the first time in a way that's unacceptable and was totally unexpected. I figure as long as I have GSD's in my life, I will continue to learn because the day I say I know it all is the day I set my dog and me up for a tragedy to happen.


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## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> Because you got the dog from a K9 trainer, more than likely and probably 100% more than likely it's a working line dog which tend to be much more reactive (and over-reactive) and aggressive than a showline dog. Many people getting GSD's don't know that either. They think a GSD is a GSD and the differences between showline and working dog can be tremendous. I know I am not a person that could properly handle a working line dog and I wouldn't even want to try. I could not give the dog a proper home.
> He needs more exercise and structure than a showline dog.


I believe it is the genetics, environment, and nurturing of any GSD to be more reactive and over reactive.
I have a _well bred_ working line who has a very steady _non reactive _temperament, he is by far easier than my two others.
Some showlines are completely reactive and their nerves cause them to be fear aggresssive. Same can be said for the WL.

Please don't generalize the lines that cause the problem. 

In this case, I think it is the genetic makeup and the way the dog has been shaped thruout his life, compulsive methods instead of positive that has caused his issues. Letting him be bullied during his formative months in the beginning didn't help either, but he can be fixed with slow, compasssionate methods.
If you are still here, GSDog, I hope you heed everyones advice and help your boy get thru this!


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## Dainerra

I think, that in the hands of John Q Public, a working lines is more likely to be allowed to BECOME a problem. simply because the average person doesn't know how to handle them, let alone train them.

so, I agree with Riley's Mom in a way. but, it's not a generalization about the dog, but about the owner. not to mention that someone who would sell a "working line" dog to a John Q Public with no clue is probably not a breeder with solid genetic temperaments to begin with.


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## onyx'girl

Again, that can be said of either line, I've seen some intense reactive showlines, too. And SL's nerves can be far from steady, unless they come from responsible breeders. There are far more SL's out there(in rescue/shelters, too) than WL's.
There are a few people right now on this board and another I frequent, who have pups that don't know what they have gotten into, because the "breeder" was not responsible.
And everyone on these boards are trying to help these new GSD owners,but it is frustrating, hopefully they will learn how to shape their pups the right way!


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## Dainerra

onyx, I wasn't really thinking of an already reactive dog of either line. I was just meaning that, given the drives and work ethic of a working line, I think there is more potential there for it to be messed up. not to mention that a working line dog in the hands of John Q Public is more likely to have come from a bad breeder, increasing the risk. 
I guess also that I don't think of the shelter/BYB dogs as SL or WL since they are so far off the path of either. I was thinking of those people who brag "I have a working line GSD" who shouldn't be allowed to own chia pet 

I think it comes down, in the end, to mis-informed people. sadly, I think that the average person shouldn't have ANY dog. esp those who are determined to remain clueless. at least the people who show up on this forum have taken the first step, admitting that they don't know everything!


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> Because you got the dog from a K9 trainer, more than likely and probably 100% more than likely it's a working line dog which tend to be much more reactive (and over-reactive) and aggressive than a showline dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it is the genetics, environment, and nurturing of any GSD to be more reactive and over reactive.
> I have a _well bred_ working line who has a very steady _non reactive _temperament, he is by far easier than my two others.
> Some showlines are completely reactive and their nerves cause them to be fear aggresssive. Same can be said for the WL.
> 
> Please don't generalize the lines that cause the problem.
> 
> In this case, I think it is the genetic makeup and the way the dog has been shaped thruout his life, compulsive methods instead of positive that has caused his issues. Letting him be bullied during his formative months in the beginning didn't help either, but he can be fixed with slow, compasssionate methods.
> If you are still here, GSDog, I hope you heed everyones advice and help your boy get thru this!
Click to expand...

I was thinking more along the lines of onyx girl's line of thinking. Most K9 trainers train with compulsion, and they don't teach the dog the "off switch", They only control the dog - certain areas of the dog have not been developed or allowed to mature. Those dogs are confused about certain things (when one should protect for example), and often don't know how to properly communicate. Of course, this paragraph is a generalization about certain types of trainers with certain types of dogs, to be read in that context!

I've been through this with Max. 

If anyone ever has an opportunity to go to a workshop by Steve White, a K9 trainer that uses positive methods, it's pretty good and gives you some insight.


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## onyx'girl

JeanKBBMMMAAN(who has such a great way with words) had this to say in another thread, her quote taken from here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1306912&page=1#Post1306912


> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> _This is how I view it. Your old trainer made your dog more afraid of you and that is how you stopped his fear aggressive behavior. He was still fear aggressive, it was just pushed down. So it looks good, but I think much more dangerous.
> 
> Now, you are teaching Benny how not to fear things, and he is learning by behavior shaping, new behaviors. He may still be fearful, and is letting you know, but then you are able to teach him new ways to react.
> 
> So you are being given a cue that the dog is uncomfortable, which I think helps in keeping them from getting into bad situations where we've forced them, they've sucked it up, but then, a button is finally pushed that they just can't handle and they snap.
> 
> I realize I am not making a lot of sense, but hope that you understand what I am trying to say.
> 
> Example may help. Bella, fear aggressive. Tamped down BADLY so fear of expressing fear was the first thing, then the fear secondary. So it was layered. First thing to do was to open her up to "being bad" enough to indicate discomfort, then work on those things that we found upset her. Her signs were so small I didn't catch on to what was happening at first, then I got it. She still gets nervous, but you can see the idea is not to strike out, but to look to me, and that to me is remission!_


The same advice can apply to GSDogs situation, because reactivity usually is based in fear.


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## Riley's Mom

I'm just going by how it was explained to me and so that's how I understood it to be.


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## GSDog

> Originally Posted By: Dainerra at least the people who show up on this forum have taken the first step, admitting that they don't know everything!


I did and do read everything you all posted and a lot makes sense. I dont come on often cause I dont always have time to get on the computer at home. We all make mistakes in life or if we were perfect life would be boring. I work day and a lot nights. I work on a computer all day long and you dont feel like coming back to a computer when you get home. 

It is a lot better now with my dog. Major never left his territory without a leash. I live in a big city and I believe all dogs should be on a leash. My problem is that the big park infront of my house most dog owners dont walk their dogs on leashes. Some of thier dogs comes crossing the street to get to my dog. So even on my land others come. Of course as a GS they will protect what is theirs. So now in his head he wants to prevent them coming on our land and goes and get them across the street.

Spoke to some trainers and his vet and all said the same thing. Major is protecting what is his. Yes doesnt give him the right either to cross the street and attack dogs. Anyhow, so far so go, when I walk Major he sees a dog across the street, he raises his head looks wants to go but he doesnt cause he knows he be able to. I give him a HEY and he keeps walking. But if I walk with my husband, he will growl and bark. I think the husband will have to go to the trainer and not me. Major is ok with me but it would be smarter if he goes with his master to the trainer for socializing. 

I know my GS is from a working line and he does get his excercise everyday. We make him run, walk, bike in the summer, hiking and all. So it is not because he doesnt move. He does. Now it is winter so he goes basically on walks and running at midnight in the park across the street cause there is a section where people go play baseball in the summer and it is massive and all fenced up. We make him run, play football with him in that park. I had big dogs all my life an mostly dobermans. Major is a bit more of a handful and more work. Just that we have to keep an eye out more on this guy. He is a good dog. Big baby. This is why I came in here to ask if this has every happened to anyone of you guys cause he is a GSD. Well got to go for a walk now with Major. Will check in later.

cheers

lan


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## smudge0151

I've got a dog like this. She hates other dogs wants to kill them I'm just about to give up. I have had gsd for years but this one is a lunatic with other dogs although we have cocker spaniel that she lives with. I've done all of the above nothing works . May I add she a beautiful well behaved animal as long as there are no other dogs around . I think it's fear of other dogs as appossed to aggression. Please help, dread to think what my next step is !


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## David Winners

You will get far more responses if you start your own thread instead of commenting on one 5 years old.


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