# Is tug-of-war bad?



## brew1985

Is tug-of-war with a rope toy the wrong type of playing for a young pup (7-10 weeks)? I was reading Leerburg's training advice and he says that it can lead to bad behavior and can eventually lead to an overly aggressive GSD while playing.

I'm having trouble deciding what the best games to play are without reinforcing bad biting habits.


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## LaRen616

Sinister loves playing tug-o-war with his rope, we always played that with him, always. He absolutely loves all dogs big and small and loves people. We have no aggression issues with him what-so-ever


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## Raziel

Tug of war is fine. It doesnt make a dog aggressive.


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## brew1985

Great, maybe that trainer, Leerburg, just has his own philosophy on those kinds of games


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## onyx'girl

I play tug all the time with Karlo, let him win most of the time. You are the one that controls the game, so if the dog is feeling a bit too macho, you win the game and end it.
It is also a confidence builder for the dog that needs to build that up by letting him win, prance him around with the tug and praise him. 
The need to bite of a pup is fulfilled when they play tug, IMO, so they aren't so sharky.
When Karlo started to teethe, we took a break. 
It is his favorite game and really wears a young pup out. I use french linen tug toys and have a couple of braided fleece ones. I like the two handled ones for more control.
My ring fingers are _very_ sore constantly from tug.
When the pup is really young, it is fun to have the flirt pole or rag/string to play with them. Another way to wear out their never ending energy!


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## brew1985

i like to run one of the knots into the side of his crate and let him try to get it out, winning that one has to make him feel good


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## SunCzarina

Nothing wrong with it as long as you control the end game. Sometimes I win, sometimes the dog, I make them sit and out so it teaches them control but when I say game over, that's it and I put it away.

It's a good outlet for getting out their aggression. Good for teaching control and focus.

A lot of what you'll see on leerburg is geared towards training a very hard dog. It's not for the average pet GSD.


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## Andy-jr.

SunCzarina said:


> as you control the end game.


I agree, play with your puppy but watch his teeth while he is young. Teach him to "out" when you want the game to end or even in the middle of the game and then give it right back to him so he learns control.


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## onyx'girl

I never taught Karlo to out, I had no problem with it as I would let him win most often or trade. 
At about 10 months I finally taught him to out, and he does it well on command at 12 mos. 
I didn't want him to spit it when I took off the pressure as he is training in SchH, spitting the sleeve can be a problem, too and I didn't want to have to fix that later.


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## doggiedad

i play tug with my dog. i forget when we started
playing tug. my dog will play tug with anything
that's presented to him. i never try to
yank the tug toy out of his mouth. i pull the toy, 
i lead him around with it, move it left to right, etc.
i don't try to reaaly take the tug from him because
i'm affraid i'll damage his teeth. often i
let my dog win the tug game. if i want my dog
to release the tug i say "leave it".


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## elisabeth_00117

Tug is bigger than ball in this house.

Stark lives for his tug, we have been playing tug since he came home at 8 weeks.

I usually let him win too, he prances around with it in his mouth and 99.9% of the time brings it back to me so we can engage in a tug of war.

If he seems to be getting just a little too "into it" I win and stop the play.

*Just some tips, for cheap tug toys: take some old towels or sheets or blankets and tie them in the middle. Stark has a fleece blanket that I rolled up, tied in a knot and we use that as a tug. He LOVES it. Sleeps with it, chews on it (like a pacifier), licks it.. lol.


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## JerzeyGSD

I play tug-of-war with Jerzey but, when I play with her, I always due my best to win because we used to have alpha issues. She thought that she was above me so I would always try to win just to reinforce that. With John, however, he would occasionally let her win to help boost her confidence because she immediately submitted to him, from the first day we got her. 

Basically, I'd go ahead and play but balance out who wins and definitely make the last game one that YOU win!


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## brew1985

thanks for the gameplay advice everyone!


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## Jason L

Brew1985, 

There are all kinds of stuff on Leerburg - from very old to the very new. So pretty much on any subject you'll send Ed Frawley or someone else saying one thing at one time and the opposite at another time. Views and theories evolve and change over time - which is a good thing. 

Leerburg recently put out a huge 5+ hour DVD with Michael Ellis called "The power of playing tug with your dog". It's most definitely worth checking out!

Leerburg | The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog DVD


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## Basil2010

I teach my dogs to take treats out of my mouth. It's so that they don't snap when I give them treats . I have one dog that snap but I got him when 8 years, but all my pups have ...It's fun everyone think wow..i want the dog to be gentle.


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## debbiebrown

i stayed away from it with my youngest, just because he is apted to nip people because he is a bit nervy and i didn't want to promote him jumping around and up to bite a tug............there is alot of controversy over tugging they say if your dog has ever nipped, growled or bitten anyone don't do it............but as i am learning more through educated info as said as long as you control the game it can be benificial........in my case i did start playing tug with my young male simply because i had to have something to keep him busy in Agility class otherwise food only worked so long when we were standing watching the other dogs run the course.............so, i am in hopes this might curb his frustration of wanting to run after the other dogs...........


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## heather122

I played tug with Sadie from the beginning. It helped a lot with her "piranha" (sp?) days. Everytime she wanted to bite, I put the rope in her mouth and we played. I also made her "drop it" so that I won. For us, it was a good way to wear her out (not so much now), stop the biting and for teaching "drop it"


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## brew1985

how do i go about teaching him drop it? just say drop it and treat when he lets go?


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## doggiedad

i think you should teach your dog to "leave it/drop it" with
something other than the tug in the begining. i think it would
be easier to teach him to drop something that he's
not so charged up about. once you teach him to leave something
else then work on leaving the tug or drop it with the tug.



brew1985 said:


> how do i go about teaching him drop it? just say drop it and treat when he lets go?


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## heather122

We didn't start "drop it" with the tug. That was just the only thing I could get her to "drop." After she dropped it (or just let go) I would toss it, she brought it back and we tugged some more. We gave her treats to drop the rope in the beginning...


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## elisabeth_00117

For the out command, this is what I did.

Engage dog with toy, tug, whatever it is they have.

Play with them with it.

Then stop all movement while still holding onto the toy.

Once they release, take the toy.

Praise, treat, praise, praise, praise.

I used the clicker to mark the behaviour I desired but using a marker word works too, such as YES!.


I should mention that I taught "leave it" before this, so it was a tad easier.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I teach my dogs to give up a toy by saying the command (I use "give", which means to release a toy, either to my hand or to drop it, I don't really care which) and then putting a stinky treat right up to their nose, which helps create an association between the command and the behavior. When they release the toy to take the treat, I mark it, either verbally ("Yes!") or with a clicker, at the exact moment that they give up the toy. After a few tries I'll give the command without showing the treat first, and then marking and rewarding AFTER they give the toy up. Once they've got the idea I usually phase out food rewards, and use the continuation of play as the reward - either throwing the ball, or releasing them to grab the tug again (I don't let them grab toys out of my hand until I say they can). Eventually, I like to add a sit and eye contact before we resume play after the toy is released.

I also do tons of trading games with my pups starting from when they first come home. A toy for a treat, a treat for a bone, a bone for a toy, etc. And any time they grab something they're not supposed to have (Halo, at 16 months old, is STILL obsessed with the TV remotes and loves to carry eyeglasses around too), I encourage them to bring it to me for a treat rather than teaching them how much fun it is to run around the house playing the keep away game! Once you've got the foundation in place of them giving up stuff and either getting it back, or getting something else in trade, you don't always have to reward them, or give back whatever they have, or give them something else. I just say "thank you!" when they bring it to me, and put it away. 

I would be gentle tugging with a 7-10 week old puppy, you don't want to yank him around, and while he's teething too, and no jumping up in the air for toys until they're much older either. 

In addition to teaching her to release a toy on cue, I play a game with Halo. She started bringing us a bone and sitting in front of us rolling it around in her mouth until she can get us to hold an end for her so she can really go to town on it. So I started asking her if I could have it, and then pulled on it gently until she let go. I praise her, ask for a "watch" and then give it back to her. Because we've played a lot of trading games before, she trusts me to give her back the bone, and releases it readily:






So when she brings me the TV remote I don't yell at her for stealing it off the coffee table (AGAIN! :headbang I say "Is that for me? Can I have it? Good puppy, thank you!" MUCH better than her taking it off into another room and reducing it to it's individual parts before we've noticed that it's missing.


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## debbiebrown

when playing tug most dogs will release the toy when you bring it into your body and hold it stationary and use "out" or whatever release word works best for the individual..........some might be slower to release than others, but i think most dogs get the picture that there is no more play unless they release..........


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## brew1985

Fantastic advice folks, and Debbie your dog is BEAUTIFUL, Bison better learn drop it or else my ankles are gonna get pretty battered! lol


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## Cassidy's Mom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I teach my dogs to give up a toy by saying the command (I use "give", which means to release a toy, either to my hand or to drop it, I don't really care which) and then putting a stinky treat right up to their nose, which helps create an association between the command and the behavior. When they release the toy to take the treat, I mark it, either verbally ("Yes!") or with a clicker, at the exact moment that they give up the toy.


Oops, that doesn't make sense, the above was supposed to read like this:

I teach my dogs to give up a toy by saying the command (I use "give", which means to release a toy, either to my hand or to drop it, I don't really care which) and then putting a stinky treat right up to their nose. *When they release the toy to take the treat, I mark it, either verbally ("Yes!") or with a clicker, at the exact moment that they give up the toy, which helps create an association between the command and the behavior.*

I added that part after I typed the rest of the paragraph, and I missed, putting it in the wrong place. 

Thanks Brew!


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## debbiebrown

Marker words are always good............i use the word "out" when playing tug, but if i am just playing ball in the yard i use "drop" its easier to have a few different words for it depending on what your doing........and always use "good" or praise words as said above ........


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## Jessiewessie99

I always play tug of war with Molly, Tanner doesnt care much for toys.lol


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## brew1985

Thanks elisabeth, sometimes i need to hear it "barney style" before i understand what someone is explaining to me.


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## Jacq

I taught indie release while playing tug.. i would have tug w/ her until i had her in a position so she couldnt back up (a wall or tv or something) and stop tugging and get really close to her and apply GENTLE pressure w/ the fleece rope... i would just start saying release realease realease REEEELEEAASE (in a nice voice) until she got tired of struggling w/ it and let go... i would IMMEDIATLY say good girl and give it back and start tugging again..... it didnt take long before she realized that when i say release, the sooner she does the sooner the game starts again... i seldom have to say it twice now ( started at 9 weeks and she is 10 weeks now) although she will occasionally chomp on it a few more times as she lets go.


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## brew1985

Bison at 8 weeks now, is still super mouthy, so drop it is still a difficult command to teach


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## mjbgsd

I started tugging with all my dogs at a young age except for Cody until I joined a schH group when he was 2 years. Both Isa and Akbar are much more intense with it then when they were little babies.


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## GrandJan

I guess I am the odd man out here. I got my two guys together as puppies and I never allowed them to play tug, nor did I play tug with them. Yes, I was/am a Leerburg follower, but it made sense to me.

I did not want anything and everything to be a battle between the two of them pulling and yanking everything they could get those little razorblades on, so I would stop it at the first tug.

We learned "give" separately and each at his own speed, and I have no problems at all now with asking them for something.

Now, 5 years later, if one picks up a toy and the other one decides he wants it, the first one drops it and just goes on.

Also, my granddog - almost a year old - tries to play tug with my boys (literally dropping the toy into their mouths!) and they don't really know how to play.

I do not regret not letting them play tug (I'm positive it saved me a lot of unneeded hassles between them), and I never intended to train them for anything that needed a firm bite/grip.

Just my experience.


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## wilsel

A lot of trainers will tell you not to play tug unless you can win. That is our GSD's favorite game. He wants to play every night after dinner like clock work. It's a great way to wear him out if it's raining outside, and you don't feel like walking. Since we are in control of his food, and everything else we do not have any alpha issues. Some trainers argue that if the dog wins to much they will think they are dominant. I disagree. Maybe an issue with some young dogs, but they usually understand their place in the pack by 12 months, and accept it from there on out. Of course every dog is different, and there will always be an exception.


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## Cassidy's Mom

A couple of days ago I tried something I hadn't done before - putting one dog in a down stay while I tugged with the other dog, and then I switched them. We did this several times, so each dog had 5 or 6 times with the tug. Keefer did much better than Halo, she broke her sit the first few times and I had to body block her and put her back in place before continuing to play with Keef. He was very good about staying until I released him, and by the last few times Halo was able to hold her stay until released too. 

A couple of weeks ago in class our dogs were lined up in down stays while the trainer tugged back and forth in front of us with her own dog. Halo was perfect, but of course I was right there with my full attention on her and could reward her for staying put. I knew it would be more challenging doing it with Keefer because they're so competitive and everything here belongs to Halo.  

I thought it was a great exercise and plan to do more of it. It's one thing for a dog to stay calm and focused when there's not that much going on, but when other dogs are excited and playing nearby and they have to control their impulses it's a lot more difficult - good practice if I want to do agility with her!


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## debbiebrown

that is a great exercise.......i do that alot with my two....i also put one of them in a down stay and play ball with the other one........it works well at helping the impulse control.........it also is great multi-tasking when you need to exercise both dogs..


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## Dolus

Tugging is fine - Leerburg himself has a done a video with Michael Ellis promoting tug use as motivator and drive builder (although don't start using the tug as a reinforcer until he can properly retrieve and out the tug).

I think you can see some free video clips on the website from the video (as far as I remember it's called "the power of playing tug with your dog").


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## Gib Laut

this is an older thread, but this is a great article on playing tug....not recommended with young pups with baby teeth but does a great job explaining the benefits.....tug is a great outlet for built up frustration or anxiety also.....

LEE CHARLES KELLEY


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## BigBeaux

Gib Laut said:


> this is an older thread, but this is a great article on playing tug....not recommended with young pups with baby teeth but does a great job explaining the benefits.....tug is a great outlet for built up frustration or anxiety also.....
> 
> LEE CHARLES KELLEY


very good read!


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## Puppy

I remember reading that tug of war is bad with allready aggressive dogs... so I think this means also individual dogs with tendency towards aggression. 

???

I'm not an expert!


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## hunterisgreat

The correct answer is:

You need to read your specific dog and his/her temperment and how they act/react to the game. Some dogs never get aggressive. Some have to have their games very carefully constructed to suppress aggression. No good way to answer this. The safe answer is "dont play tug" which is what leerburg said. thats only to prevent the minority of dogs that it might be an issue with from getting aggressive with some blanket advice


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## Jax08

I play tug with Jax, and LET her win, to build her drive. There is NO correct answer and Yes, there is a good answer to this question. There are several good answers in this thread.


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## Denali Girl

hunterisgreat said:


> The correct answer is:
> 
> You need to read your specific dog and his/her temperment and how they act/react to the game. Some dogs never get aggressive. Some have to have their games very carefully constructed to suppress aggression. No good way to answer this. The safe answer is "dont play tug" which is what leerburg said. thats only to prevent the minority of dogs that it might be an issue with from getting aggressive with some blanket advice


 
But yet some other "experts" say to tug to quell agression, who's right?


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## hunterisgreat

Denali Girl said:


> But yet some other "experts" say to tug to quell agression, who's right?


Tug to kill aggression? I've never heard that... Normally tugging is "positive loading", which is to say you are upping the dogs "good stress" until you release, at which point he won the toy, the pressure dissipates, and he gained a little confidence and prey drive. If you never released and he did, then you just became a little more dominate over him, so maybe thats what you are referring to? If the dog was working in defensive drive for the tug game, then we've got an entirely different situation on our hands, but most people don't have the eye to notice this

Aggression is a word that can mean different things depending on the speaker, but I don't consider the opposite of submission to be aggression. My male is very dominate over my female, but he is not aggressive with her. When she submits, the exercise is over... he quits growling, she quits whimpering and both dogs are back to normal. There was never aggression involved. Make sense?


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## EchoGSD

I play tug of war all the time with all 3 dogs (GSD, Rottweiller, and Sheltie). Doesn't make them more aggressive. All three of my dogs know the release word ("give"); they know that when they give up the toy they will be rewarded...sometimes with a treat, but more often than not just lots of praise and petting and usually another round of tug.


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## Denali Girl

hunterisgreat said:


> Tug to kill aggression? I've never heard that... Normally tugging is "positive loading", which is to say you are upping the dogs "good stress" until you release, at which point he won the toy, the pressure dissipates, and he gained a little confidence and prey drive. If you never released and he did, then you just became a little more dominate over him, so maybe thats what you are referring to? If the dog was working in defensive drive for the tug game, then we've got an entirely different situation on our hands, but most people don't have the eye to notice this
> 
> Aggression is a word that can mean different things depending on the speaker, but I don't consider the opposite of submission to be aggression. My male is very dominate over my female, but he is not aggressive with her. When she submits, the exercise is over... he quits growling, she quits whimpering and both dogs are back to normal. There was never aggression involved. Make sense?


LEE CHARLES KELLEY

Yes, tug to quell aggression.


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## hunterisgreat

Denali Girl said:


> LEE CHARLES KELLEY
> 
> Yes, tug to quell aggression.


Thats one thing about the dog training world... there are a thousand methods and all of them work for some dogs, but none work for all. The mark of the good trainer is the one that knows which dog needs which method of training.

That being said, I don't see anything in that article that disagrees with what I said. In fact they are the same. The tug of war isn't being used to kill aggression (not directly, which is what I thought you were implying). The tug of war is building confidence, which in effect eliminates or lowers the fear in the dog, which stops the aggression. It is a lack of confidence that causes inappropriate aggression


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## PaddyD

hunterisgreat said:


> Thats one thing about the dog training world... there are a thousand methods and all of them work for some dogs, but none work for all. The mark of the good trainer is the one that knows which dog needs which method of training.
> 
> That being said, I don't see anything in that article that disagrees with what I said. In fact they are the same. The tug of war isn't being used to kill aggression (not directly, which is what I thought you were implying). The tug of war is building confidence, which in effect eliminates or lowers the fear in the dog, which stops the aggression. It is a lack of confidence that causes inappropriate aggression


So, is it over-confidence that causes appropriate aggression? 
Anyway, tug of war is just good exercise. If your pup lacks confidence, let him win most of the time. If not then maybe you should make sure you are the last one holding the rope. As with most confidence building you gradually phase the winning percentage from 90% puppy to 90% yourself.


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## DCluver33

I play tug with dodger all time. he's never been aggressive at all. I make sure that I start the game and end it, letting him win a couple of times so he doesn't get bored. I used tug to get him interested in his flirt pole and to build his tummy muscles.


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## hunterisgreat

PaddyD said:


> So, is it over-confidence that causes appropriate aggression?
> Anyway, tug of war is just good exercise. If your pup lacks confidence, let him win most of the time. If not then maybe you should make sure you are the last one holding the rope. As with most confidence building you gradually phase the winning percentage from 90% puppy to 90% yourself.


Well... I don't believe in over-confidence within the context of dog training. BUT, yes, it is high confidence that lets a dog be aggressive *only* when appropriate. A scared, low-confidence dog will be aggressive when there is not a real threat to him.

You also have to figure what you want out of the dog. How you train is highly dependent on whether you're after a sport dog, ppd, house pet, SAR, blind guide, whatever


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## Jax08

So are you saying that the majority of aggression comes from fear? I say majority because there could be a medical reason, or bad breeding, that would make the dog aggressive.


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## hunterisgreat

Jax08 said:


> So are you saying that the majority of aggression comes from fear? I say majority because there could be a medical reason, or bad breeding, that would make the dog aggressive.


If we are talking about aggression when you know there is no valid reason for him to act aggressive, then yes. If there is a medical reason (his leg is broken, etc) its still fear... he's scared because he knows he can't defend himself in his weak state. Thats why injured animals are so dangerous. It can also be bad breeding/poor temperament inherent in the bloodline. The majority of the time though, its just vanilla fear and lack of confidence.


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## Jax08

I meant medical reason as in thyroid, epilepsy, etc that CAUSES aggression. Not a scared, hurt animal that is lashing out.

It makes sense that aggression is based on fear. We do hate what we fear.


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## hunterisgreat

Jax08 said:


> I meant medical reason as in thyroid, epilepsy, etc that CAUSES aggression. Not a scared, hurt animal that is lashing out.
> 
> It makes sense that aggression is based on fear. We do hate what we fear.


There are exceptions to every rule, and a hormonal imbalance or disease is certainly one of those.

For a healthy dog, improper aggression is almost always fear

better?


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## Puppy

This is a really intresting thread... so I guess judging by the dog's personality. A person should regulate when, or how many times a dog should win right. So this what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) if I play tug with a high confidence dog I should win a the majority of the time? If I play tug with a low confidence dog I should make shure that he allways win...? I want to play tug with Iron, but after being told not to play tug with a dog. I just do not know what to decide. What about playing tug right after training?


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## DCluver33

Puppy said:


> This is a really intresting thread... so I guess judging by the dog's personality. A person should regulate when, or how many times a dog should win right. So this what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) if I play tug with a high confidence dog I should win a the majority of the time? If I play tug with a low confidence dog I should make shure that he allways win...? I want to play tug with Iron, but after being told not to play tug with a dog. I just do not know what to decide. What about playing tug right after training?


you are right about winning if the dog in confident and letting the dog win if it's not. I use tug as a reward and a tummy muscle shaper.


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## Puppy

Oh really I got that right?! Cool!! Hey thats a good idea  tummy muscle shaper! Haha I'm imagining my pup with humanlike abs hahahahaha


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## ayoitzrimz

Sorry I'm so late to the discussion! I'll add my two cents anyway (without reading 6 pages of comments... sorry again  ):
I played tug with my dog since day 1 (with a break during teething). PLayed properly I think it's a great way to build drive (or) tire the dog out as well as establish a bond and play rituals.
First some rules I implemented with him:
1. No touching of skin. I'd often tease him and get him to drive harder and harder to get the tug toy but if he ever touched my skin with his teeth I'd immediately "kill" the item (stop moving it completely) and give a verbal correction (nothing else is needed since witholding reward is negative reinforcer by itself). I'd stand there for about 20 seconds and then drive him again
2. Out means out - when he was a puppy I used treats while playing and "exchanged" outing the toy with getting a treat. If he outed I _immediately_ started moving the toy and let him chase it as further rewarding the out. Once he got the hang of outing I stop tolerating any ignorance of the command and corrected him for not outing. At the same time if he does out 9 times out of 10 he'll get to chase it again immediately. 
3. obedience brings the toy - once his drive was up I'd have him chase the toy around and give an obedience command. If he complied, he got the toy and we tug. If he didn't he'd get a "no" and no toy.

Played this way I think it's a great way to teach a dog obedience (using his drive) as well as self control. I would recommend people follow these rules. I also think that the bad stigma associated with tug was perpetuated by people not following this rule and dogs that think it's ok to bite the hands by mistake and that they decide whether they want to give the toy back or not.

Ok, a little more than 2 cents I guess but I tend to ramble...


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