# boring topic but making me crazy



## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Adelaide is 18 weeks old today and she pooped and peed in the house today. She has her AKC Star Puppy award and we train several days a week. She comes, stays, sits, downs and is a joy in every way except she isn't showing any signs at all of being house broken. I am with her 24/7 and know her habits. I understand her behavior when she wants to go out. I take her out once, sometimes twice a night. She only whimpers in her kennel (beside my bed) at night when she needs to potty. Most of the time she sleeps for 6 - 8 hours now without needing to go outside. I have only scolded her a few times in the past 3 months for doing business in the house and that was during the few times when I caught her. I know the rules about taking her outside and I follow them practically religiously. But she will go outside for twenty minutes, do business one and two and come back inside for five minutes and do business again. Yes she poops twice and pees twice normally. Outside. And on the rare occasion she will come right back inside and do it again - like today. Or she will give me zero sign that she needs to go, but she goes where I can't see her so I think she understands I don't like the behavior. I asked the trainer how she ever learns that its not allowed to do business inside and she said "they just do." The trainer also recommended keeping her in a crate during the day as well as at night. She is a companion to my 3 year old dog and to me so I do not want to keep her in the crate during the day. I am soliciting suggestions but really don't want her in the crate all day and I am following the flow chart so need some new ideas. Thank you. And love this forum and the patient people who are willing to help. She is my second GSD but my first puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, you should crate her when you aren't able to watch her. if you know her pattern, then take her out to go, then put her right in the crate. Wait 15 minutes and take her out again.

Leaving her loose has now created a habit you'll have to break and the crate will be the easiest way to do it.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

The usefulness of the crate surprised me. I had thought of it as doggy jail. Now, my six-month puppy is either in my direct line of sight. I use baby gates to make one area 'the dog area.' or, he is hanging out in his crate content as could be.


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## Stuckey (Feb 1, 2020)

Does the pup see you clean up after her? You should crate her just long enough to clean up so she doesn’t start to think you are the maid. After it is cleaned up take her outside.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, you should crate her when you aren't able to watch her. if you know her pattern, then take her out to go, then put her right in the crate. Wait 15 minutes and take her out again.
> 
> Leaving her loose has now created a habit you'll have to break and the crate will be the easiest way to do it.


Thank you - I see what you mean and I do not mind crating her for a short while. Here's hoping.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pam V said:


> Thank you - I see what you mean and I do not mind crating her for a short while. Here's hoping.


Humans are the ones that view crates as a jail. Dogs view them as a den. My 6 year old goes in the varikennel to sleep all the time even though there are soft beds throughout the house.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

If you don't want to crate you could tether your pup to you. Keep her on a leash with you as you move about or next to you while sitting. If she starts to squat to potty quickly rush her outside. Don't scold her. I have always repeated potty outside, potty outside as we ran to the door to go potty outside. Then when they are going I say good potty and throw a silly party of excitement over it. 
Also if you are not doing so be sure to use an enzyme cleaner to clean up accidents. If the smell isn't completely gone they will know and think it's ok to potty in the house.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I also wouldn't scold much. Maybe say a quick no-no while picking her up running her outside. I've seen cases where after scolding the dog will just hide to do its business inside so it's harder to prevent it then, sounds like that's what you've done and they may not want to potty outside around you either then. I wouldn't crate a puppy all day but I would 100% not leave them unsupervised and left to roam free. It's safer for her to be in a crate or confined area when not supervised so she can't get into anything. As she gets older and is trustworthy not to chew anything up or go potty it's safer to leave them out.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> If you don't want to crate you could tether your pup to you. Keep her on a leash with you as you move about or next to you while sitting. If she starts to squat to potty quickly rush her outside. Don't scold her. I have always repeated potty outside, potty outside as we ran to the door to go potty outside. Then when they are going I say good potty and throw a silly party of excitement over it.
> Also if you are not doing so be sure to use an enzyme cleaner to clean up accidents. If the smell isn't completely gone they will know and think it's ok to potty in the house.


Thank you. That is also a good idea. I too use the word "outside." She doesn't go in the house often. I'm just wondering how many other people have puppies that are 4 months old that aren't house broken. I have no experience with puppies but this seems like a long time for a dog not to learn she's not supposed to go in the house. Unlike other forms of training - I do nothing to show her that's not acceptable behavior. I reward her outside for doing business and she does business outside when I say "business." I just cant figure how shes supposed to understand she's not to do it in the house. She has picked up all other training quickly but oblivious to this.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Kazel said:


> I also wouldn't scold much. Maybe say a quick no-no while picking her up running her outside. I've seen cases where after scolding the dog will just hide to do its business inside so it's harder to prevent it then, sounds like that's what you've done and they may not want to potty outside around you either then. I wouldn't crate a puppy all day but I would 100% not leave them unsupervised and left to roam free. It's safer for her to be in a crate or confined area when not supervised so she can't get into anything. As she gets older and is trustworthy not to chew anything up or go potty it's safer to leave them out.


Thank you. I dont scold her unless I catch her which hasn't happened often. And my scolds aren't lengthy or mean. She plays constantly with my other dog and sometimes when they are occupied with each other I take my eyes off of her - that's when it happens. And it's not often - really not often at all. As I put in another reply I am surprised that a 4 month old puppy isn't house trained yet. Is that unusual? She does business outside when I tell her to and I reward her.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

davewis said:


> The usefulness of the crate surprised me. I had thought of it as doggy jail. Now, my six-month puppy is either in my direct line of sight. I use baby gates to make one area 'the dog area.' or, he is hanging out in his crate content as could be.


She is used to her crate and likes it but she doesnt like seeing the other dog walk around free when she has to be crated during the day. I thought of baby gates but she hangs tightly with my other dog and so it's hard to separate them without her kicking up a bit of a fuss. Now I close off most of the house to both of them so I can see them practically all the time. I have asked this question in other posts- is it unusual for an 18 week old dog to not be completely house broken? When dogs have come into my life they have been adults and all house broken. I am used to cats. Show them the box. Done


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Stuckey said:


> Does the pup see you clean up after her? You should crate her just long enough to clean up so she doesn’t start to think you are the maid. After it is cleaned up take her outside.


Yes she does. I will correct that. Thank you.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

**but she doesnt like seeing the other dog walk around free when she has to be crated during the day. **

umm...welll...err....did she tell you that or did she send you a text? She can easily learn to "like" being in her crate while the other dog is out. 

The bottom line is that she is making mistakes while you are not paying attention to her. You say that you are following the flow chart, but you really aren't. She must either be in your line of site or she must be in the crate (or tethered). If you set up your routine so that there is no chance of a mistake, there will not be a mistake. Time and consistency will absolutely fix this problem.

You are allowing the circumstances that are allowing for mistakes to happen.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

You might want to start from the beginning as if she isn’t potty trained at all


Crate when you’re unable to watch her and try to steel your heart. Crate training is such a useful tool to have in the bag. Puppies need a lot of naps anyway so it’s not as if she couldn’t use the down time. I believe at this age, I had mine on a three crate nap a day schedule. At 6 months, my pup still has two crate naps: one for his mental state and one so I can cook dinner and not give him an opportunity to make mistakes.
Take her out before she goes in the crate and when she comes out of the crate
Tether her to you when out of the crate. I used a long line that dragged the floor so my pup was always in reach. The puppy should earn her freedom from the leash in house.
Set a timer and take her out every 20, 30, or 60 minutes
Use bells on the door, ring them every time she goes out and she’ll pick up quick on it

Good luck. I don’t think you are alone not having an 18 week old potty trained. But it’s totally doable, especially if you are with your puppy all the time.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Jorski said:


> **but she doesnt like seeing the other dog walk around free when she has to be crated during the day. **
> 
> umm...welll...err....did she tell you that or did she send you a text? She can easily learn to "like" being in her crate while the other dog is out.
> 
> ...


Wow - you people are tough! Actually we had to stop texting after I took her phone away for peeing in the house. Ok - seriously, I see the error of my ways which is why I asked for help. I am going to be more conscientious. It seems obvious what should be done but when you are in the middle of living it it's not as obvious as it is to more experienced, objective people. At the risk of being thoroughly eviscerated I will ask another question. If done right are GSD's usually house trained by 4 months of age?


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Well, that depends on what you mean by house trained. If you mean, they don't make mistakes anymore while you are watching and you stick to a schedule, the answer is yes. If on the other hand you mean that you could go out for 8 hours and give the pup free run of the house, then the answer will usually be no.

All along it is about preventing errors, and very slowly allowing more freedom. It really doesn't matter what age your pup is at this point. Mistakes are happening and that behavior has been somewhat reinforced (pup feels better after going in the house).

Someone said to go back to the beginning, and that is good advice. Stick to the crate. When the pup is out of the crate, it needs 100% attention. 

The good news is that this is 100% fixable. Don't get hung up on what should be at a certain age, just focus on achieving the outcome that you desire. It will happen as soon as it can happen....then you can give her phone back


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Jorski said:


> Well, that depends on what you mean by house trained. If you mean, they don't make mistakes anymore while you are watching and you stick to a schedule, the answer is yes. If on the other hand you mean that you could go out for 8 hours and give the pup free run of the house, then the answer will usually be no.
> 
> All along it is about preventing errors, and very slowly allowing more freedom. It really doesn't matter what age your pup is at this point. Mistakes are happening and that behavior has been somewhat reinforced (pup feels better after going in the house).
> 
> ...


Got it. Thank you for your time and advice.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> You might want to start from the beginning as if she isn’t potty trained at all
> 
> 
> Crate when you’re unable to watch her and try to steel your heart. Crate training is such a useful tool to have in the bag. Puppies need a lot of naps anyway so it’s not as if she couldn’t use the down time. I believe at this age, I had mine on a three crate nap a day schedule. At 6 months, my pup still has two crate naps: one for his mental state and one so I can cook dinner and not give him an opportunity to make mistakes.
> ...


This is great advice. I am definitely going to turn this around. Thank you so much.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pam V said:


> I too use the word "outside." She doesn't go in the house often. I'm just wondering how many other people have puppies that are 4 months old that aren't house broken. I have no experience with puppies but this seems like a long time for a dog not to learn she's not supposed to go in the house. Unlike other forms of training - I do nothing to show her that's not acceptable behavior. I reward her outside for doing business and she does business outside when I say "business." I just cant figure how shes supposed to understand she's not to do it in the house. She has picked up all other training quickly but oblivious to this.



I think it's common for them to not be housebroken at this age when they are not crated, or otherwise supervised, and have started to go in the house. For puppies who have been crated and/or tethered, 4 months would be when they are starting to go to the door and let the owners know. My puppies may have started to go in the house just once or twice, they were stopped and taken out. 

But that's really irrelevant for you. We can sit here all day and tell say you did it wrong but that's not helpful to you. You just need to start over. She's either crated or tethered to you. Your eyes are on her always when she's out of the crate. When you see her squat to potty, make a sharp noise to stop her and get her outside. Don't scold her. She doesn't know. Just a noise or a "No" and out the door. I do say "let's go out" so they start to associate "go out" with out to potty and going out the door. If you are super consistent, you'll have this under control in a few weeks. I know they understand when they go to the door to be let out on their own. 

Clean all spots she's gone with an enzyme cleaner for 50/50 vinegar.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I think it's common for them to not be housebroken at this age when they are not crated, or otherwise supervised, and have started to go in the house. For puppies who have been crated and/or tethered, 4 months would be when they are starting to go to the door and let the owners know. My puppies may have started to go in the house just once or twice, they were stopped and taken out.
> 
> But that's really irrelevant for you. We can sit here all day and tell say you did it wrong but that's not helpful to you. You just need to start over. She's either crated or tethered to you. Your eyes are on her always when she's out of the crate. When you see her squat to potty, make a sharp noise to stop her and get her outside. Don't scold her. She doesn't know. Just a noise or a "No" and out the door. I do say "let's go out" so they start to associate "go out" with out to potty and going out the door. If you are super consistent, you'll have this under control in a few weeks. I know they understand when they go to the door to be let out on their own.
> 
> Clean all spots she's gone with an enzyme cleaner for 50/50 vinegar.


Thank you - you aren't so mean after all ;-) I am re-energized and will be consistent.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pam V said:


> Thank you - you aren't so mean after all ;-)


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## Stuckey (Feb 1, 2020)

Pam V said:


> I'm just wondering how many other people have puppies that are 4 months old that aren't house broken.


My puppy wasn’t house trained until five months, and I still kind of don’t trust her alone inside for any amount of time.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Stuckey said:


> My puppy wasn’t house trained until five months, and I still kind of don’t trust her alone inside for any amount of time.


Got it - I was just wondering how far behind we are!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

It should take 2-3 weeks to house train. And I dislike the term train. 
What you are really doing is preventing any and all possibilities of the animal toileting in the house. You are conditioning them to remove themselves to the great outdoors to relieve themselves. 
My rule is eyes on or in the crate at all times. That means 24/7.
Your doing fine, just reset the board. Start at day one and get it done.
I call pups like yours two poopers. Lol. And yes they are a bit more challenging. It sometimes helps to play with them outside, but be aware that could lead to issues when you are in a hurry. Or asking to go out just to play.


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## Stuckey (Feb 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> It should take 2-3 weeks to house train.


Took us just less than a month.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> It should take 2-3 weeks to house train. And I dislike the term train.
> What you are really doing is preventing any and all possibilities of the animal toileting in the house. You are conditioning them to remove themselves to the great outdoors to relieve themselves.
> My rule is eyes on or in the crate at all times. That means 24/7.
> Your doing fine, just reset the board. Start at day one and get it done.
> I call pups like yours two poopers. Lol. And yes they are a bit more challenging. It sometimes helps to play with them outside, but be aware that could lead to issues when you are in a hurry. Or asking to go out just to play.


Thank you. For most of adult life I've had shelter dogs who came to me as adults. Every one of them was free to roam the house and to my memory none ever did business in the house. I see it's a whole new ballgame with a puppy. I dont have children but am thinking this is what it's like to have a toddler. So now I'm thinking I was really smart not to have had children  Thank you for the advice. I see now that she just has to go in the crate at some points during the day. Looking forward to her teenage stage. All of this advice has been helpful and has turned around my thinking on the issue.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Stuckey said:


> Took us just less than a month.


That's what I'm talking about! Obviously you are very good at this. I thought I would take her out a few times for business and she would get it. A bit alarming when it didn't happen that way.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Pam V said:


> That's what I'm talking about! Obviously you are very good at this. I thought I would take her out a few times for business and she would get it. A bit alarming when it didn't happen that way.


We each have our strengths. That's why these types of groups or forums can be so nice ☺


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## Stuckey (Feb 1, 2020)

Pam V said:


> That's what I'm talking about! Obviously you are very good at this. I thought I would take her out a few times for business and she would get it. A bit alarming when it didn't happen that way.


It seemed like forever though??.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Stuckey said:


> It seemed like forever though??.


Try three months -


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> It should take 2-3 weeks to house train. And I dislike the term train.
> What you are really doing is preventing any and all possibilities of the animal toileting in the house. You are conditioning them to remove themselves to the great outdoors to relieve themselves.
> My rule is eyes on or in the crate at all times. That means 24/7.
> Your doing fine, just reset the board. Start at day one and get it done.
> I call pups like yours two poopers. Lol. And yes they are a bit more challenging. It sometimes helps to play with them outside, but be aware that could lead to issues when you are in a hurry. Or asking to go out just to play.


TThere is also the fact that animals have to learn bladder control as they age. They at very young ages cannot hold it or don't have that knowledge and it is a skill that is learned.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Pam V said:


> Adelaide is 18 weeks old today and she pooped and peed in the house today. She has her AKC Star Puppy award and we train several days a week. She comes, stays, sits, downs and is a joy in every way except she isn't showing any signs at all of being house broken. I am with her 24/7 and know her habits. I understand her behavior when she wants to go out. I take her out once, sometimes twice a night. She only whimpers in her kennel (beside my bed) at night when she needs to potty. Most of the time she sleeps for 6 - 8 hours now without needing to go outside. I have only scolded her a few times in the past 3 months for doing business in the house and that was during the few times when I caught her. I know the rules about taking her outside and I follow them practically religiously. But she will go outside for twenty minutes, do business one and two and come back inside for five minutes and do business again. Yes she poops twice and pees twice normally. Outside. And on the rare occasion she will come right back inside and do it again - like today. Or she will give me zero sign that she needs to go, but she goes where I can't see her so I think she understands I don't like the behavior. I asked the trainer how she ever learns that its not allowed to do business inside and she said "they just do." The trainer also recommended keeping her in a crate during the day as well as at night. She is a companion to my 3 year old dog and to me so I do not want to keep her in the crate during the day. I am soliciting suggestions but really don't want her in the crate all day and I am following the flow chart so need some new ideas. Thank you. And love this forum and the patient people who are willing to help. She is my second GSD but my first puppy.


Nothing boring about your question/topic. When you're in other GSD groups and forums and "what are you feeding your GSD" (or neuter/spay...or crating) questions are asked at least 5 times a day, every day, every week...you tend to welcome other questions.

My suggestion is to have her tethered to you...so that you can watch her like a hawk and pick her up immediately when she gets into "position." Sorry if it's already been said...I didn't bother reading everyone's responses.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Kazel said:


> TThere is also the fact that animals have to learn bladder control as they age. They at very young ages cannot hold it or don't have that knowledge and it is a skill that is learned.


That is fascinating information. I was told their bladders were just too small until they got older and more developed. It did not occur to me that she had not "learned" control. Adelaide does let me know now 99% of the time that she wants to go "outside." It's that 1% that needs to be dealt with. Now I see what I need to do.


tc68 said:


> Nothing boring about your question/topic. When you're in other GSD groups and forums and "what are you feeding your GSD" (or neuter/spay...or crating) questions are asked at least 5 times a day, every day, every week...you tend to welcome other questions.
> 
> My suggestion is to have her tethered to you...so that you can watch her like a hawk and pick her up immediately when she gets into "position." Sorry if it's already been said...I didn't bother reading everyone's responses.


Repetition is part of the training process and I am getting trained. Thank you. I am seeing the light! Appreciate your time.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)




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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Just underscoring one of the comments above - clean all areas she's eliminated indoors with an enzyme cleaner (Nature's Miracle or equal). 

I was out of town with family last weekend and some relatives were losing their minds over their 5 month old puppy that occasionally pees in various parts of the house. Most of the time she goes to the door, but she has accidents in the house several times a week. They'd been cleaning up with Windex on hard surfaces and Febreeze on the carpet. Neither of those break down the salt crystals from urine, nor do most household cleaners.

One of my dogs is appalled by indoor urine odor - she will refuse to go into a room that has been peed in, and if my clumsy male puppy gets pee on his foot she won't go near him either. She's the clean freak of the family.... and she avoided whole parts of their house. I used her behavior to guess where their puppy continues to have accidents, and my relatives were blown away that the guesses were all correct. To a dog, the odor remains (and remains and remains and remains) until it's broken down. 

Their puppy was completely accustomed to living in a house with varying pools of urine odor, which wasn't helping her learn to keep the house clean. If you've already been using an enzyme cleaner every time, just disregard this anecdote.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> my clumsy male puppy gets pee on his foot


There must be something wrong with the design of my 6-month-old male puppy. The angle of his boy parts combined with his stubby legs, short body, and huge feet makes peeing on his front paws inevitable. 

Poor little guy tried lifting his leg once... but just tumbled over and pee went everywhere. Apparently young guys are not good at stopping the flow yet.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> Just underscoring one of the comments above - clean all areas she's eliminated indoors with an enzyme cleaner (Nature's Miracle or equal).
> 
> I was out of town with family last weekend and some relatives were losing their minds over their 5 month old puppy that occasionally pees in various parts of the house. Most of the time she goes to the door, but she has accidents in the house several times a week. They'd been cleaning up with Windex on hard surfaces and Febreeze on the carpet. Neither of those break down the salt crystals from urine, nor do most household cleaners.
> 
> ...


The anecdote is well received and the advice on enzyme cleaners is needed. I noted in one of my posts that in 30+ years I have not had a dog use the bathroom in the house so I am clueless.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

I am little late to this discussion, but I am so glad I read it. My puppy peed a lot in the house, and it took about 7 weeks to train her. She still goes sometimes (once a week). I thought I was doing something wrong, but I think maybe it's just part of the joys of having a puppy.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

it is part of puppyhood, finding the right routine.


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

JunoVonNarnia said:


> I am little late to this discussion, but I am so glad I read it. My puppy peed a lot in the house, and it took about 7 weeks to train her. She still goes sometimes (once a week). I thought I was doing something wrong, but I think maybe it's just part of the joys of having a puppy.


I started this post about Adelaide. She is now going on 8 months and I think she is finally housebroken. She hasn't peed in the house in 10 weeks. She now has the roam of the house because I leave her crate open. She goes in it at night on her own to sleep and will wake me in the morning when she wants to go out. So it does happen eventually and advice I received here was helpful.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

Your Majesty. She is a beauty. GSDs always look like royalty, but perhaps I am biased.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Love those ears!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

oh so cute!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What a nice update --- and a handsome girl there, too.

I started reading this thread as it brought back memories. Until 6 years ago, I could have told you how to house train a dog in a week or less. Yup. Then I got Ms. Comeupance. ... took a year. Yup. a year. Not my first puppy but it took a year for us to reach an agreement. a year... Now whenever I see a "how long?" "help with house breaking" thread I laugh at myself.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

@Pam V Congratulations! So did you give her cell phone back?


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

middleofnowhere said:


> What a nice update --- and a handsome girl there, too.
> 
> I started reading this thread as it brought back memories. Until 6 years ago, I could have told you how to house train a dog in a week or less. Yup. Then I got Ms. Comeupance. ... took a year. Yup. a year. Not my first puppy but it took a year for us to reach an agreement. a year... Now whenever I see a "how long?" "help with house breaking" thread I laugh at myself.


Oh my - so glad you didn't speak up sooner. I would have been in tears!


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## Pam V (Jan 5, 2020)

Pawsed said:


> Love those ears!


Ohmygosh - first I worried if she would ever stop peeing in the house. Now I am wondering if she will ever grow into those ears haha.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I think they are perfect. She must pick up every radio station for 100 miles! I absolutely love them.


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