# New Michael Ellis clip on Leerburg - Question



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/9-25-09-news.flv&news=09252009

So I watched the new Michael Ellis clip on Leerburg last night and it seems like Frawley and Ellis were both criticizing B. Flinks' way of drive building. 

Frawley said it will make the dog too possessive and then later implied that the method only works with very serious dogs (I guess dogs that don't show a lot interest in the sleeves to begin with. Our club has a few rotties like that - as soon as they get the sleeves, they spit it out and go back to eyeballing the helper with really bad intention LOL). 

Ellis seems to be saying that the method of walking around and craddle should only be done in protection when the dog has the sleeve and that you need a different method in obedience. 

To me it sounds like what he is saying is the "out" you train in obedience has pretty much nothing to do with the "out" you train in protection and that he is not concerned about grip and stuff like that when he is working the tug with a dog in obedience - whereas it seems like teaching a calm grip was a big deal to Flinks even if we are just working puppies in drive building. What Ellis wants is a quick, unambiguous, non-conflicted out (none of that stealing the tug when the pup is not looking stuff) and immediate re-engagement. 

Do you guys agree the "out" you train in obedience doesn't have much to do with protection and you don't need to do the protection "routine" when you are doing obedience?


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

I agree that you don't have to do the protection routine or worry about grips while doing obedience. However from that video I didn't get the vibe that he was saying the outs for obedience and protection are exclusive. Both outs SHOULD be non-conflicting, obviously taught in different manners and at different times, but I think he was trying to say more that the routine of running with the dog and cradling was only needed in protection. I didnt watch the entire clip so I may have missed that part though.

There are many many ways to play tug, I started with the Ivan method, but then switched to doing what Ellis does before I even saw the clip, that way just works for my dog. 

For MY dog, the Ivan method definitely made her more possessive, however, shes got that trait in her blood. Since I started playing similar to Ellis, she brings the toy right back for more, whereas she used to run for the hills when she won it, because she was constantly being outed. Playing like this has NOT affected her bitework whatsoever. They know the difference between obedience and bitework









ETA: Im extremely new to SchH so take my opinion with a grain of salt


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

Looks like good dog training and imprinting the last point he makes going through as he calls it is exelent foundation work for Schutzhund obedience.


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## vomonyxhaus (Feb 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Linhttp://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/9-25-09-news.flv&news=09252009
> 
> (I guess dogs that don't show a lot interest in the sleeves to begin with. Our club has a few rotties like that - as soon as they get the sleeves, they spit it out and go back to eyeballing the helper with really bad intention LOL).


Gotta love Civil Drive.....


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

The people at our club are not particular PG in their vocabs and I have heard people come up with some colorful ways to describe the look these dogs give to the helper!









All I know is whenever the rotties get the sleeve TD always screams out really loudly "RUN HIM AROUND!!!"


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have to agree. You don't want your dog running around in a circle and then holding the darn toy calmly standing when doing obed.

The toy in obedience works best if it is an extension of you. The fun with the toy is had WITH you. This makes the obedience relationship strong because the fun is not just earning something and running off, but rather engaging in play with handler. This keeps the dog near you, focused on you and considering you an integral part of the rewards. I never did like that ball toss far off that sends the dog flying away as an obedience reward. If using a ball, I'd get the string back fast to tug. 

I wonder if the other activity of dog running and holding was proposed as drive building for protection?


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> Do you guys agree the "out" you train in obedience doesn't have much to do with protection and you don't need to do the protection "routine" when you are doing obedience?


Like a previous poster- the "out" is about relationship and clear communication. That aspect DOES transfer to protection. The out is obedience, but also control in a a higher drive state.

It makes sense to me that any mimicked protection work during obedience may be wasted effort. A dog's drive state is so different that its a whole different game. (Geez, getting my dog to heel with the helper on the field, those are fun days!!) However, the carrying and stroking may help the handler _learn_ how to carry with his dog and position himself for a calming hold so when the start protection the handler will know how to do that, but I learned how to do that during protection work and not in an obedience session.

Bringing the toy back to me was a challenge when I started (Nandi was 14 months old) as there was conflict, because I took toys from him, and there was possession issues. I did go to an Ivan seminar to start and was taught "the Game" . I have adapted both to have Nandi come to me to play and make clearer outs. Our relationship has really grown now that we are more of play "partners" rather than him taking his toy and leaving....

PS I am nobody, just 4 years into the sport. My dog knows more about the sport than I do.


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## 7servant (Sep 11, 2009)

Hi, just a disclaimer here first...I'm also new to the sport so this is just an observation.
I have used the Flink's method and it was great for my dog. Her drive was low but she always had a good grip. She now has amazing ball drive and her protections work is coming along great. Were as Flink's is dealing with drive building, focus in drive, and a calm bite. I believe Ellis is dealing more with focus and foundation work, which is very important for you OB....the problem I have now is my dog wants to focus on the ball while fussing instead if focusing on me....Bad....So what I am seeing is that the Ellis video is very good foundation work ....Which is Imperative for OB and Protection.....And the Flink's drive building technic is needed for a calm dog in the bite work....If you watch and look at alot of dogs doing protection work, they will get the sleeve and run straight back to the handler...This is good foundation work that carried over from OB to the Protection work......all these different technic's of training are used to gain a certain action from your dog in any give situation. While every dog is different...the training should be altered for that spacific Dog (that's what I think Ellis meant when he said or reffered to the cradling of the dog and running in circles...I could be wrong, but that's what I see........If your dog is a high drive dog of course you won't need to do drive building , but you will have to work on focus and a calm grip.......so the long and short of it is that both method work .....but you have to know what your dog needs......
One last comment......I'm probably going to buy the video you linked....lol.......It look like great fondation training.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO before you judge Flinks or Ellis and their ideology you must train with them in person.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

I have been to seminars given by both of them. My understanding is that Flinks' method encourages possesion of the prey item, winning the item is the reward. With Ellis, the reward is the play with the handler. Different sports, different methods, I don't think one is better than the other. Use the method that works best with your dog.


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