# HD & Too Skinny



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I've been having so many people tell me that Troy is very skinny, and that his hips look horrible. I know both of these are completely false, but his back legs are a always pointing inward. He's still in the leggy stage so I know HD signs are way too early possibly. (He's 6 months)
I have a picture of Troy taken today (it isn't a stacked picture). But if anyone can please critique or any advice on the HD stuff please share.  

*Notice how the back legs are*
DSC_2341 by Bella.67, on Flickr

CSC_2367 by Bella.67, on Flickr


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## CDR Shep Mama (Mar 14, 2015)

Random people will always give their unsolicited opinion, if they aren't your vet I wouldn't take it to heart!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Take a picture from the side and then one looking straight down on him. 

Can you feel his ribs? 
Are they visually prominent?
Can you see his hip bones?
Can you see his spine?
Can you feel his spine without seeing it?

the way he's standing in that first picture, he looks weak in the back. But that could just be a growing show line thing too.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I'll get some pictures tomorrow and post them, my phone broke and I'm waiting for the new one to come.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

Ha, he kinda looks like my dog. No HD in him either. The cow-hocked thing is usually genetic and not harmful; but it could be a sign of something going wrong. What I believe my dog has (and possibly yours) is maybe a neurological deformity or disease.

The biggest question here is how does he walk? Is he steady when he stands? Is he weak? How long has he been this way? Does he pace?

Don't rule out HD though, if you're luckier than me you'll find a vet who knows his/her stuff and can diagnose your boy's issues.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

Also (forgot this) I ran into another forum once with pictures of a weak ended looking dog like this. The dog apparently lived indoors most of the time and barely got any exercise and had a poor appetite. A change in lifestyle and the dog looked totally normal afterwards.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you are concerned do get an x ray .

he lacks muscle 

conformationally he appears to have a very steep croup 

in this picture he does appear to take weight off his right side , leaning to his left -- why we need more

take a picture or video of the dog moving


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Bella, my Brick is also skinny. I took him to the vet and he told me not to worry, he looks fine. Anyway, I wanted to be sure so we did blood work and checked for parasites. Everything was ok. He is happy and full of energy so I suppose he is just growing like that. I changed his food and he is improving slowly. You could go to the vet and check him, just to be sure.

No one have X-ray vision so they cant tell you if he have HD. Does his parents or grandparents have history of HD? cow-hocked? Are they skinny? how are his siblings?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Apollo is also thin and I keep him that way on purpose. He is growing slowly like I want him to. He is almost 10 months and 63 pounds. He has plenty of time to fill out and he will at a slow pace, I feel it's better for him and his hips and I don't care if people say he is skinny. He is a healthy, happy pup. As far as the way your pup stands I'm not sure if the picture is the norm or not? It does seem it's different but pictures can be deceiving. Have you asked the breeder?


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

He looks fine to me


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Yes I asked my breeder about this and she said he's "cow hocked" and it usually just goes away when he get's older.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bella67 said:


> Yes I asked my breeder about this and she said he's "cow hocked" and it usually just goes away when he get's older.


Then don't worry about what others think. You can take him in for X-rays if that makes you feel better, but he is still very young. You don't want him to be over weight. He looks happy and healthy to me


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Everyone also said Bear was unhealthy, etc. I knew he wasn't, but I still wanted him to gain some weight. I started feeding a little more, and adding a tablespoon of cottage cheese to each meal.. I did this for about 2 weeks, and he has gained weight and looks super healthy. He is still lean, and has alot of muscle.. He swims(amazing way to build muscle) and/or runs daily. I wouldn't concern yourself with HD until a little older, he has lots of growing to do and alot is going to change.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Here's a side picture taken about 2 weeks ago.

DSC_1906 by Bella.67, on Flickr

DSC_1900 by Bella.67, on Flickr


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I don't think he looks too skinny at all! I know nothing about the whole cow hocked thing, so I can't comment on that. I can't believe how big he's getting! Wasn't he just a little baby puppy a few days ago?


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don't think he looks too skinny at all! I know nothing about the whole cow hocked thing, so I can't comment on that. I can't believe how big he's getting! Wasn't he just a little baby puppy a few days ago?


Yes it feels like yesterday he was just a puppy! I just posted a new thread with some pictures taken today of him.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

He has a very steep croup for sure. He does keep his rear under himself,but that could be puppy body.
FYI, Hip Dysplasia can show up at any age and does. Please do not discount HD just because he is still a youngster.
Personally, I would have xrays done just to check on his hips, my worry is he really has his hind legs under himself in both pictures and might be an issue or might be because his croup is so steep.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> He has a very steep croup for sure. He does keep his rear under himself,but that could be puppy body.
> FYI, Hip Dysplasia can show up at any age and does. Please do not discount HD just because he is still a youngster.
> Personally, I would have xrays done just to check on his hips, my worry is he really has his hind legs under himself in both pictures and might be an issue or might be because his croup is so steep.


I don't think that to much will be able to be seen at such a young age. He is most likely going to be "loose". Then that can be read as HD and cause more worry....I would wait until he is closer to a year and give him that time to gain muscle.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

can you post a video showing the dog with his natural movement ?

I think the comments you are getting hasn't got much to do with his weight , but people's gut response to something being irregular and not knowing how to articulate what they are seeing and not knowing a cause so immediately relying on hip dysplasia.

The dog may or may not have hip dysplasia.

The dog does have conformation which will impact on his movement , restrictive , a weak rear, unequal weight distribution , cow hocks which prevent the dog from having power in the rear , possibly a bit of a wiggle , and the curvature of the spine . 

I would x ray now . His croup is very steep , with poor muscle . I suggested doing the x ray , not so much for the hips but for the spine --- I am thinking Lumbosacral stenosis , not uncommon in west german show lines , which the SV is abundantly aware of by the way !
I don't mean to scare you . May be totally off the mark .
Do have a look because it will inform you and allow you to make decisions which will contribute to your dog's well being.

Lumbosacral stenosis is a spinal condition of dogs and Cats

Lumbosacral Stenosis (Cauda Equina Syndrome) in Dogs

read here point #1 , as a result of the dog favouring and distributing weight unequally to one side , which your dog has been showing at least in the pictures that you provided , 

quote
1. Unilateral hip dysplasia​ This results from the pelvis being tilted along its long axis there by​ decreasing the coverage of the femoral head by the acetabulum on one​ side and increasing it on the other. The former tends to destabilise the​ hip causing it to move in and out of its socket initiating inflammation​and ultimately osteoarthritis.

http://www.videxgsd.com/PDF/Lumbosacral%20transitional%20vertebrae%20GSD.pdf

here is a thread that focused on rising spinal problems http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...eos/440833-video-german-tv-subject-breed.html
- yes too bad it isn't in English , but lot's of images of dogs with the problem and one very frustrated and discouraged vet , and lots of dog-vendors in the pub after events denying a problem (but realizing it) and selling dogs to foreigners wanting to join the show game.

mind you this is only an idea -- if it is the problem though the sooner you get the dog on to anti inflammatories the better the outcome.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Here's the video taken a few minutes ago. I'm really starting to get worried the more I look at his back legs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

must have watched it 6 times , and then another 3 or 4 full screen on youtube

right side , knit and purl , even a little rotation of the hock 
sway to pelvis up and down and side to side
I would x ray


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Does it look bad?


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Troy is a handsome boy! His weight looks fine. Some pups go through awkward growing stages, or his gait could be off from an injury. It's hard to say without seeing him in person. You can x-ray now to rule out spine or hip problems. These dogs change a lot as they grow and mature. Swimming would be good exercise for him too. Try not to worry too much and enjoy your puppy


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Yeah I talked to my breeder and showed her the video and she suggested swimming, and hill climbing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

good vet recommendation not far from you..I would do prelims just so you know and can be proactive just in case. Heritage Animal Hospital


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bella67 said:


> Yeah I talked to my breeder and showed her the video and she suggested swimming, and hill climbing.


I know that no one wants their dog to have HD but I can tell you that it's not the worst thing if that is the case. My golden has severe hip dysplasia and has had FHOs on both. He runs and plays like nothing is wrong. He never showed any signs at all. Are you fixing him? I read a study somewhere that in lots of cases the HD shows up in lots of dogs within 6 months of being fixed. I don't temember where I read it but it was a very high percentage and my golden fell in that exact category. Troy is a beautiful pup and I truly hope that everything checks out and you can get some kind of peace of mind


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

No he's not fixed yet, his other testicle never dropped so he'll get snipped at 12-18 months. We're going to take him swimming & all kinds of activities for the next few days and see if anything improves. Either way he's getting x-rayed, hope everything goes well. /:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bella67 said:


> No he's not fixed yet, his other testicle never dropped so he'll get snipped at 12-18 months. We're going to take him swimming & all kinds of activities for the next few days and see if anything improves. Either way he's getting x-rayed, hope everything goes well. /:


It's going to take a while to build muscle but with consistency you'll hopefully notice a difference. I can't keep mine out of the pool. The yard isn't finished but they are actively using the pool daily if it isn't raining.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

:bump:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

follow Kai's back legs thread ---


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

We got ahold of the breeder in Germany where Troy's mom was purchased from, and where the sire is currently staying. They said he has no muscle, his back legs look very weak, and that he needs to be upped on the exercise like swimming & hill climbing.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

When Troy was around 15 weeks 

IMG_0280 by Bella.67, on Flickr

Taken yesterday 

IMG_0279 (1) by Bella.67, on Flickr


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Taken yesterday side video & running 

CSC_2398 by Bella.67, on Flickr

DSC_2477 by Bella.67, on Flickr


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought German Shepherds don't really gain any muscle/fill in until they're 1-2 years?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bella67 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought German Shepherds don't really gain any muscle/fill in until they're 1-2 years?


I think that it's ongoing, they are gaining muscle the first year or so. That would be why feeding food with the right ratios us important. The first year, even the first two years are important for their development.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"They said he has no muscle, his back legs look very weak, and that he needs to be upped on the exercise like swimming & hill climbing. "

ask them to show you pictures of other dogs they have produced


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

He does roach his back. Could be his conformation or could be the steepness of his croup. 
Even if he is young, Xrays will show issues at this age if the acetablums are shallow and will show if femoral heads are round like they should be or squared off. Will also show if the neck of the femoral head is normal or thick.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

6 month old puppies can be in a funny place growth wise. To me saying a 6 month old puppy is awkward and lacking muscle is like saying the same thing about an 11 year old kid. You can always x-ray now if you're concerned, but then just enjoy your puppy. Keep him lean and at a good weight (which he is), provide good nutrition, and give appropriate exercise like swimming or playing on grass/soft surfaces. Don't over do exercise at this age - I let the puppy set the pace and prefer a few shorter play times vs one long one. Let him grow up and mature. 

For comparison, this was my gawky boy at 6 months:

(bad attempt at stack)





Same dog at 10 months



At 1 year



At 15 months



He is still maturing and filling out. His prelims came back OFA good/elbows normal.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

God, some of you people live in places that have rude people.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hips and elbows can be good , while spine is not


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I'm thankful for some of the advice I have been given on this thread so far. But, my breeders dog's or Troy's bloodline in Germany is perfectly fine. His siblings are not like this. Well the females aren't at least, I'm not so sure about the male.
I'm having people telling me different things hips, spine, he's still developing, and that he needs to exercise more. I know you all aren't vets or anything but I'm just getting more and more worried from all these different things that could be wrong with him.
Based on the video he could just need to go swimming, hiking, and overall more exercise. Or he just have something wrong with his spine & hips.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go to the 9 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs
16 month female


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

carmspack said:


> go to the 9 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs
> 16 month female


what is that? I don't understand German


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Bella67 said:


> I'm thankful for some of the advice I have been given on this thread so far. But, my breeders dog's or Troy's bloodline in Germany is perfectly fine. His siblings are not like this. Well the females aren't at least, I'm not so sure about the male.
> I'm having people telling me different things hips, spine, he's still developing, and that he needs to exercise more. I know you all aren't vets or anything but I'm just getting more and more worried from all these different things that could be wrong with him.
> Based on the video he could just need to go swimming, hiking, and overall more exercise. Or he just have something wrong with his spine & hips.


The internet can be so overwhelming and I think the best thing you can do is exercise him and have x rays done. Forums and google are just going to make you paranoid, and worry about him. Even if there is something wrong, that does not mean its going to affect his life greatly. There are plenty of dogs with severe HD, and don't show any pain, etc. (Not saying I think thats what he has, IF he has anything, I don't have a clue) Every dog is different, just like every person is different!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would x-ray if you are worried. 6 months is *not* too early to tell. I always x-ray my dogs at 6 months, and then again at 24 months. There's not much we can suggest without x-rays. You can ask for a spine one as well. Where are you in Michigan?


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I would x-ray if you are worried. 6 months is *not* too early to tell. I always x-ray my dogs at 6 months, and then again at 24 months. There's not much we can suggest without x-rays. You can ask for a spine one as well. Where are you in Michigan?


Metro Detroit area


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I linked a good vet to do this in post#25 on this thread, http://www.hahvet.com/#!ofa-and-penn-hip/c1u66 Dr. Amanda studied under Dr. Mostosky at MSU....her clinic is not far from where you are at all and the price is very reasonable. I would have xrays done just for your piece of mind.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Bella67 said:


> Metro Detroit area


Thanks, have you checked out Jane's link? I would get x-rays done if you are worried. It may be something, it may be nothing. Plenty of people do prelims at 6-8 months even with no suspicions so it's not crazy or a waste of money.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've notice that in the WGSLs, the sex characteristics, females *tend* to be more moderate.

Doesn't mean males are more prone to HD (that I'm aware of) I wouldn't use females as a guide to compare your boy with. 

Agree with others, X-rays are the only way to tell for sure and don't over-do exercise.

Does the sire and/or dam have ZW scores by chance?




Bella67 said:


> I'm thankful for some of the advice I have been given on this thread so far. But, my breeders dog's or Troy's bloodline in Germany is perfectly fine. His siblings are not like this. Well the females aren't at least, I'm not so sure about the male.
> I'm having people telling me different things hips, spine, he's still developing, and that he needs to exercise more. I know you all aren't vets or anything but I'm just getting more and more worried from all these different things that could be wrong with him.
> Based on the video he could just need to go swimming, hiking, and overall more exercise. Or he just have something wrong with his spine & hips.


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

My neighbor have WGSL female. She was extremely wobbly and skinny as puppy, even at 10-11 months her legs were a bit weak and wobbly. At about 13 months she transformed. She was still skinny but her legs were strong and she had good movement. Unfortunately I don't know her about HD results


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Making a appointment today to get Troy x-rayed at the Heritage Animal Hospital. Hope all goes well.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Does the sire and/or dam have ZW scores by chance?


Sire is 79 and Dam is 84


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

:bump:


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Those are good scores. Still not 100% that Troy will have good hips, but it really stacks the deck in his favour. But you probably knew that already!  Let us know how the xrays go!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. Good scores.

Here's a good write up by breeder on the ZW.

Home of West Coast German Shepherd Dogs - HD Zuchtwert Information


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes they are good scores --- statistics rely on 100% compliance with submitting ALL (even exported) hip results.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

....and compliance over time. 

Margin of error becomes less influential as more data accumulates.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

We made an appointment for Friday, let's hope it's nothing major!


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

At the vet now he's getting hips & elbows done for prelims. I'll post X-ray results on a new thread.


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