# Are some puppies purposely defiant?



## Jline123 (Jan 23, 2016)

I work from my home office, so I spend plenty of time training with my 3mo boy. But, he likes to NOT listen about as much as he does listening. Inside, if I say "come" he will come about 80% of the time. If we are outside, it's about 0%-2%. I know the level of distraction is drastically different, but do you guys think puppies are defiant sometimes just to see what they can get away with? Should I spend more time working with him outside? And is there an age where punishment is necessary for not listening to a command? If so, what kind of punishment? Hitting is not an option, nor are shock collars or prongs. He's getting away with ALOT right now, because he is too cute, and I understand he is still a baby, but I also don't want to screw up and have a disobedient dog just because we didn't know what we were doing! Thanks!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

He's 3 mos. Keep rewarding and treating. Keep working. 
I'm curious as to know why no prong or ecollar? Used correctly they are very humane. I would wait till he's 6 mos tho to introduce these.


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## Jugisland (Oct 9, 2015)

they absolutely LOVE to test their boundaries. at 3 months of age try to use as much motivational techniques as possible to either make him do something that you want or distract him from something that u don't want him to do. Do not recall him unless you have some sort of tool to enforce it in case he chooses to refuse. at 3 months of age that tool would be a long line. Get him very excited when u recall ..use a lot of praise *as soon as he turns towards u* and high value treats when he comes to u.

There will be times when he would choose the undesired behavior over your reward and that is when he will need a correction. I just used quick and short neck scruffs when he didn't listen. Hold him by the thick skin on his neck and give a quick firm shake saying NOOO. As soon as he stops the stupid behavior after the neck scruff you can rewards him and praise him. Make sure that the corrections are followed by reward/praise as soon as you get a desired behavior. In less than a week only your NOO will get the results and u will not need to scruff him as often.

He will be a brat for the next 3-4 months trying to test his limits but DO NOT let him get away with anything and enforce EVERYTHING that u tell him to do ...do not give him a command if u cannot enforce it. He will learn and accept eventually that he just have to do wht u say and good rewards come when he obeys u. if you control him during the next 3-4 months then he will have a much easier teenage phase. 

Enroll in obedience class and remember to make everything fun and rewarding for the puppy ... Make him realize that u r the best person in the world and the world is a very happy place while letting him know that bad things happen when he is being a brat.


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## Jugisland (Oct 9, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> He's 3 mos. Keep rewarding and treating. Keep working.
> I'm curious as to know why no prong or ecollar? Used correctly they are very humane. I would wait till he's 6 mos tho to introduce these.


I personally would not use a prong collar or e-collar on a 3 month old baby .... those are very powerful tools and should not be used on a dog when he is too young and immature to understand the expectations very well. 6-7 months is when these tools are ideal and that also if the dog had a good foundation.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

Only use a command when you are sure the pup can complete the task given, in your case recall or (come) 
Every time you use the command (come) and he ignores it the command itself has less meaning than before. Essentially you are teaching the pup to ignore the command. 

Allowing your pup to drag around a 6 foot lead in the house will give you more control and a way to steer him towards you if need be. 

Outside where other distractions are you must hold the highest stimulus in order for compliance and have a good read on your pup. 
Have his favorite squeaky toy with you outside. Make some noise with it and when you are sure you have his attention "COME" squeak squeak and start moving backwards. Moving backwards makes the pup want to chase or not be left. Make sure to use marker words. I use (good) when in progress or (I'm not finished with you) I use yes when task is complete and praise (treat or play is to follow)
You can slowly start phasing out all the over stimulating squeaking and backing up as compliance gets better but it's there if needed. 
He is a pup so have fun teaching him for now, training and formalizing these taught commands will come in time. 
Hope this helps some.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jugisland said:


> I personally would not use a prong collar or e-collar on a 3 month old baby .... those are very powerful tools and should not be used on a dog when he is too young and immature to understand the expectations very well. 6-7 months is when these tools are ideal and that also if the dog had a good foundation.


Read my post again.


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## Alexis63 (Feb 7, 2016)

He's just 3 months and it will be two steps forwards, three back at that age. I'd put a long line on him when outdoors and train recall with that as your tool, always using an excited up-beat tone of voice and ready to offer him a special tit-bit when he returns to you, even when you have to reel him in on the long line. I wholly agree with you regarding electric collars (obscene things). I wouldn't/couldn't use such a collar on any dog. Here in Scotland/UK such collars are considered cruel in the extreme. The prong, well I guess it would be useful in controlling a dog who might pull like a train, but the effort put in now with recall and lead walking should negate any need for a prong later down the line.

Enjoy your wee boy and good luck with your training regime.


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## Alexis63 (Feb 7, 2016)

Jugisland
Totally agree with everything you've written


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He's a baby and is learning. It's not intentional. It's instinctive and natural. That is how they learn. They do what puppies do, and we guide, we show, we teach. By 9 weeks my puppy could do an automatic sit, and a down. I taught him to lie quietly at my feet while I'm online. It took a lot of persistence and repetition but eventually he got it. Puppies adore us and want to please. It's our job to show them what we want.


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## Clay Hill (Jan 27, 2016)

I wholly agree with you regarding electric collars (obscene things). I wouldn't/couldn't use such a collar on any dog. Here in Scotland/UK such collars are considered cruel in the extreme.[/QUOTE]

Nevermind..... not worth it......
Some folks just know so much about things that just aren't so...
In the hands of a skilled artist a knife is a tool can help create beautiful sculpture. In the hands of an idiot...... well same tool....


Granted I would never use an ecollar on a pup that young.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jline123 said:


> I work from my home office, so I spend plenty of time training with my 3mo boy. But, he likes to NOT listen about as much as he does listening. Inside, if I say "come" he will come about 80% of the time. If we are outside, it's about 0%-2%. I know the level of distraction is drastically different, but do you guys think puppies are defiant sometimes just to see what they can get away with? Should I spend more time working with him outside? And is there an age where punishment is necessary for not listening to a command? If so, what kind of punishment? Hitting is not an option, nor are shock collars or prongs. He's getting away with ALOT right now, because he is too cute, and I understand he is still a baby, but I also don't want to screw up and have a disobedient dog just because we didn't know what we were doing! Thanks!
> 
> 
> View attachment 348009


 Your puppy is NOT defiant. 

You are teaching your puppy to ignore you. 

Cut that out!

Yes, he is a baby. Yes, he will be much more distracted outside. 

You need to set your puppy up to succeed and praise your puppy for succeeding. Or, you can set him up to fail and squash him. Which do you think will produce a puppy with an excellent bond. 

Telling your puppy to do something he is partially trained to do, without being able to follow through immediately (i.e. telling him to COME and not having a line on him), is teaching him that COME is optional at this point. 

Repeating commands is nagging. Don't do that. Instead, do not give a command, no command unless you can follow through, immediately. Give the dog a moment to do what you told him to, and then help him reach the position you want. 

Do not tell a dog to come and then real him in. Use the line to ensure it does not become a game of chase. Go to the dog, realing in the spare line as you get to him, then walk him to where you want him and then say, Good Come. 

Always follow through. 

The puppy is not definant. The puppy's owner needs to discipline himself or herself 
to train with better consistency. 

Whatever time you are currently doing with training is plenty. You have to improve what you are doing, not the time. He is a baby. He doesn't need any structured training yet, though you can start. But repeating bad training for more and more minutes, isn't going to do what you want. 

This is why good classes can be helpful. They can teach you to be mindful of your body language, and to follow some pretty simple rules:

1. Keep it short, puppies attention span is small.
2. Start and stop training with something you are certain he will be successful at, something fun.
3. Don't repeat commands.
4. Tell them once, give them a moment, then help them.
5. Always follow through.
6. Do not give commands you cannot enforce. 
7. Don't repeat an exercise more than three times in a row. 


Training is mostly for you, the owner, to learn how to be clear and consistent for your puppy. The puppy will figure things out so much easier, and will trust you far quicker and stronger if you are consistent.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Clay Hill is an actual,honest to goodness dog trainer.He has given excellent advice here.Scruffing your puppy isn't wise IMO.Dogs often become hand shy and defensive about anyone reaching for their collar,head,or neck.There are many posts on the forum about severe bites as a result.


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## Jline123 (Jan 23, 2016)

selzer said:


> Your puppy is NOT defiant.
> 
> You are teaching your puppy to ignore you.
> 
> ...


Everything you said made perfect sense and I realize that I've been doing it wrong. Mainly with the recall. But you shouldn't be so condescending! I thought with my last full sentence I was admitting I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing. Nevertheless, thank you for taking the time to respond and make some clear points for me to think about.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jline123 said:


> I work from my home office, so I spend plenty of time training with my 3mo boy. But, he likes to NOT listen about as much as he does listening. Inside, if I say "come" he will come about 80% of the time. If we are outside, it's about 0%-2%. I know the level of distraction is drastically different, but do you guys think puppies are defiant sometimes just to see what they can get away with? Should I spend more time working with him outside? And is there an age where punishment is necessary for not listening to a command? If so, what kind of punishment? Hitting is not an option, nor are shock collars or prongs. He's getting away with ALOT right now, because he is too cute, and I understand he is still a baby, but I also don't want to screw up and have a disobedient dog just because we didn't know what we were doing! Thanks!
> 
> 
> View attachment 348009



He's a baby! There is no need for any correction collars. What you do need is to up your game! Or HIS game. Play recall games with him. Build a relationship. He's not disobedient or defiant. He's a baby and the world is soooo interesting. So you need to be more interesting than the big, wide, world.

Use a long line or flexi lead to teach recall. Throw a piece of food and let him chase. Call him to you (reel him in if you need to) treat him. And throw again. He'll catch on that the reward is with you quickly.

Call him to you and run the other way. Let him chase you. Reward when he gets to you.

Is there an age for punishment? That is such an open question. THere is a time for proofing and possibly a correction if needed. What kind of correction depends on the dog. My dog is 2. He's had very few real corrections. If you shape the behavior and teach them what you want, corrections will often be minimal. It has nothing to do with age and everything to do with your training and the dog's understanding of what is required of them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Play Play Play. Play with that puppy and build the bond.

Denise Fenzi has some online classes you might be interested in. 
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Foundations and Electives


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## Jline123 (Jan 23, 2016)

Clay Hill said:


> Only use a command when you are sure the pup can complete the task given, in your case recall or (come)
> Every time you use the command (come) and he ignores it the command itself has less meaning than before. Essentially you are teaching the pup to ignore the command.
> 
> Allowing your pup to drag around a 6 foot lead in the house will give you more control and a way to steer him towards you if need be.
> ...


Thank you! I just realized I have been lazy on this and that teaching him to come is nothing at all like teaching him to shake while he is in front of me and I have a treat in hand. But how exactly do I allow him to walk around with a lead when he chews anything he can get his puppy teeth into, including his lead? Is there a spray I could apply so he won't put it in his mouth? Tried vinegar but he apparently really likes the taste. Thank you for responding!


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## Jline123 (Jan 23, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> He's a baby! There is no need for any correction collars. What you do need is to up your game! Or HIS game. Play recall games with him. Build a relationship. He's not disobedient or defiant. He's a baby and the world is soooo interesting. So you need to be more interesting than the big, wide, world.
> 
> Use a long line or flexi lead to teach recall. Throw a piece of food and let him chase. Call him to you (reel him in if you need to) treat him. And throw again. He'll catch on that the reward is with you quickly.
> 
> ...


Thank you for responding. That makes alot of sense and I will continue to work on it. And yes, lately I've been playing with him more than I've been working, if that says anything. My wife is jealous because we got the pup for her but he quickly became my buddy. Oops. Have a good day


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jline123 said:


> My wife is jealous because we got the pup for her but he quickly became my buddy. Oops. Have a good day


LOL Well you could give her these tips. Or you could keep them to yourself and keep your buddy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jline123 said:


> I work from my home office, so I spend plenty of time training with my 3mo boy. *But, he likes to NOT listen about as much as he does listening.* Inside, if I say "come" he will come about 80% of the time. If we are outside, it's about 0%-2%. I know the level of distraction is drastically different, but do you guys think puppies are defiant sometimes just to see what they can get away with? Should I spend more time working with him outside? And is there an age where punishment is necessary for not listening to a command?


If someone commanded you in Russian, would you do what they said? Of course not - unless you speak Russian! Rather than thinking of your puppy as being defiant or choosing not to listen to you, consider that he doesn't understand English any more than you understand Russian. It's your job to show him what you want from him. That takes time, patience, and a certain level of knowledge regarding dog behavior and training. You need to know how to communicate with him in a way he understands. 

Also, as others have pointed out - he's a baby. Would you interact with a baby the same way you would with an adult? Would you expect the baby to have the same level of maturity and comprehension as an adult? Would you except a similar attention span? Would you punish that baby if it didn't do exactly what you wanted it to do? Again - of course not!

And you're right, when you add distractions you've increased the difficulty of everything exponentially. Any behavior that isn't very reliable in a low distraction environment is going to be even worse when you add distractions. Please keep your expectations reasonable, and find a good obedience class.


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## Jline123 (Jan 23, 2016)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If someone commanded you in Russian, would you do what they said? Of course not - unless you speak Russian! Rather than thinking of your puppy as being defiant or choosing not to listen to you, consider that he doesn't understand English any more than you understand Russian. It's your job to show him what you want from him. That takes time, patience, and a certain level of knowledge regarding dog behavior and training. You need to know how to communicate with him in a way he understands.
> 
> Also, as others have pointed out - he's a baby. Would you interact with a baby the same way you would with an adult? Would you expect the baby to have the same level of maturity and comprehension as an adult? Would you except a similar attention span? Would you punish that baby if it didn't do exactly what you wanted it to do? Again - of course not!
> 
> And you're right, when you add distractions you've increased the difficulty of everything exponentially. Any behavior that isn't very reliable in a low distraction environment is going to be even worse when you add distractions. Please keep your expectations reasonable, and find a good obedience class.


Thanks for responding Debbie. I understand how dogs learn commands, and that they don't actually learn English. But if had you on a lead and said "priyekhat" and gave you a treat when you approached me you would soon catch on that I expect you to come near me when I say that command, without you truly knowing the meaning of the word (priyekhat is Russian for "come"). He knows the command "come". I was asking because I was not sure if puppies think "He said come but I don't want to" or "He said come...oh theres a weird smell". 

I was actually the first one to point out that he is a baby, and I tried to make it clear that I understand that he is a baby. I don't actually have unreasonable expectations. Also, I asked if there was an age that punishment for ignoring a command is warranted, not if I should be punishing him now, or any time soon. He is still learning about the world and slowly what is expected of him. I am in no rush to have a perfectly obedient dog, I was just asking a few questions I couldn't clear up myself. Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a rule of thumb that gets thrown out alot...

20 different times in 20 different places. 

Come in your livingroom is not Come outside or Come in Tractor Supply. Everytime you are in a new place, take a step back and go to the basics of training.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jline123 said:


> Also, I asked if there was an age that punishment for ignoring a command is warranted, not if I should be punishing him now, or any time soon. He is still learning about the world and slowly what is expected of him. I am in no rush to have a perfectly obedient dog, I was just asking a few questions I couldn't clear up myself. Thanks!


At 3 months it is reasonable to introduce corrections when the puppy's interest begins to drift. However, that correction should be directed towards the handler and not the puppy. If what you are doing isn't working, change (or correct) what you are doing.


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## Jline123 (Jan 23, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Just a rule of thumb that gets thrown out alot...
> 
> 20 different times in 20 different places.
> 
> Come in your livingroom is not Come outside or Come in Tractor Supply. Everytime you are in a new place, take a step back and go to the basics of training.


Never heard that one before! I had him out today on a lead in the yard working on recalling. Instant progress! Thank you for the encouraging replies!


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

My current girl, Jazz, was quite the leash chewer. I was lucky to find Lupine leashes ... they will replace the leash free of charge, even if chewed. Jazz chewed up 3 leashes and Lupine replaced them every time. Jazz is now 2 and has learned not to chew them, although she will mouth them every once in a while, just to test me.:wub:

In as far as training goes, in addition to enrolling in classes, you might find reading some good books helpful. Google anything from Patricia McConnell. I find her books easy to read and her tips easy to incorporate.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Patricia McConnell is great!"The Other End of the Leash" is full of excellent info.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Don't leave a leash on him all the time. But don't tell him COME, unless you have a leash on him. Train this one until it is 100% without distractions, and then start adding distractions. Do it in different locations. This is a life-skill, meaning recall can save your dog's life, or not having the skill, can be the factor that made the difference between life and death. Train him to come and to sit in front of you, often pet his head and touch his collar before giving him praise or a tidbit -- this will get him used to this -- very important. So, train this one on lead, and when you are not on lead, you can still play with the puppy in the yard (if it is fenced) or in the house, but just do not tell him your command word, COME.

If you want to get your puppy to you, and you do not have a line, call his name. FIDO! Reach into your pocket as though you have a treat, open the door as if to go in, run in the other direction, or go and catch him.


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