# Any information available on bloodline with this pairing



## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

POSSIBLE FUTURE CHANCE AT THE FOLLOWING PAIRING. WHAT DO KNOWLEDGIBLE OPINIONS SAY: THUMBS UP? OR DOWN?

MALE:
V1-vom Fredebach
SchH3,IPO3,FH,Kk1,a Normal Hips & Elbows


VA4(I)~Flipp von Arlett​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​2 Time VA @ German Sieger Show 2002 & 2004
VA7~Ghandi von Arlett​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​3 Time VA @ German Sieger Show 1998 & 1999
2000 German Sieger
VA1~Ursus von Batu​
SchH3,FH,Kkl1, 'a'​1998 German Sieger Show
VA11~Wendrina von der Kahler Heide​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​V~Vienchen von Arlett​
SchH2,Kkl1, 'a'​V~Jock von Arlett​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​V~Haila vom Hasenborn​
SchH1,Kkl1, 'a'​V~Vicky vom Klebinger Schloss​
SchH1,Kkl1, 'a'​VA3(I)~Til vom Lechtal​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​V~Yoker vom Lechtal​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​V~Jule aus Agriento​
SchH1,Kkl1,'a'​V~Ussaja von der Wienerau​
SchH3,FH,Kkl1,'a'​V~ Urk von der Wienerau​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​V~ Chaila von der Wienerau​
SchH1,Kkl1,'a'​


FEMALE:
VA-Dlha Roven
V26(BSZS)2011,VA4(USA)2012,VA1(SK)2011
SchH3,Kkl1,a normal hips & Elbows
2008 & 2009
 German Sieger
 VA1~Vegas du Haut Mansard​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​2007 German Sieger
VA1~ Pakros d' Ulmental​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​2003 German Sieger 
VA1~Bax von der Luisenstraße​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​2002 German Siegerin
VA1~ Karma vom Ochsentor​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​VA2 (F)~ Rangoon du Haut Mansard​
SchH3,Brevet,Kkl1,'a'​
 VA3 (F)~ Owen du Fossé de Norva​
BREVET, IPO3, RCI3, SCHH.'a'​
V~Jalna du Haut Mansard
BREVET,'a'​
 VA1 (SK)~Thalia Dlha Roven​
SVV2,'a'​3 Time VA @ German Sieger show
2002,2003,2004
VA2~ Hill vom Farbenspiel​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​VA @ 2000 German Sieger Show 
VA8~Huppy von Arlett​
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​ V~Dasti vom Farbenspiel​
SchH2,Kkl1,'a'​
 VA~ Esther Dlha Roven​
SVV2,'a'​V~Zycco von Arminius
SchH3,Kkl1,'a'​

 VA~Iska Dlha Roven​
SVV1, IPO1,'a'
​


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Depends - what is your goal for the puppy?

You only listed the kennel names of the sire and dam. What are their full registered names so we can do a mating check and see the pedigree matchup.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Based on the pedigree, I'm guessing this is the matchup:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=512563&mother=619062


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Very common/popular West German show lines with many successful show dogs in the pedigree.

Whether thumbs up/down would depend on if this is the sort of dog you want.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

I would be a first time dog owner who always wanted a GSD. I am looking for a noble looking dog with strong character and breed traits for obedience and possible shutzhund training. A family pet who is good in the dog park but with the strengths to achieve more with the right time and training.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> Very common/popular West German show lines with many successful show dogs in the pedigree.
> 
> Whether thumbs up/down would depend on if this is the sort of dog you want.


Given what I am looking for, would this be a good breed pairing? Are there any factors/characteristics good or bad that I should be concerned with?


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

qbchottu said:


> Based on the pedigree, I'm guessing this is the matchup:
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=512563&mother=619062


This would appear to be the pedigrees that I was given. Does this bode well or not for a litter from this pairing?


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

I personally wouldn't be looking at show lines if you want a working dog. Look for working lines. Schutzhund is typically a working dog sport not a show dog sport.


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

And I don't know about the lines I'm just going off of Chris Wild saying show lines. But looking at the pedigree it looks like almost every dog is pretty high titled, so I guess it just matters what you are looking for.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

MrsFergione said:


> And I don't know about the lines I'm just going off of Chris Wild saying show lines. But looking at the pedigree it looks like almost every dog is pretty high titled, so I guess it just matters what you are looking for.


If you have high working titled dogs that also had good show characteristics would that not be a win-win? I'm looking for a good balanced pet with good temperament that I can do some obedience and possibly some schutzhund training with.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

nynewbie said:


> If you have high working titled dogs that also had good show characteristics would that not be a win-win? I'm looking for a good balanced pet with good temperament that I can do some obedience and possibly some schutzhund training with.


The answer to that question gets, um, complicated. 

I think it is honestly something that you're probably best off learning on your own by watching dogs train and trial in the real world. What you see with your own eyes may look very different from the impression you might develop based on forum chatter.

For what you're describing, I think a good show line dog would be absolutely fine. Any sound, stable dog will be capable of doing some obedience (really, you can do it even with a crappy insane dog. I don't _recommend_ it, but I will say firsthand that it's possible), and there is no reason that a good show line dog won't be able to do some Schutzhund work if you decide you're interested in pursuing that. There are several people on this board who have done very nice IPO work with their show line dogs.

Especially for a first-time owner who is not 100% absolutely bent on super serious competition and who's emphasizing a "pet with good temperament" first, I don't see any reason you shouldn't consider a show line dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would advise you go to some Schutzhund clubs and watch the dogs. Find what you like and talk to the breeders of those dogs. You have lots of options in NYS.

where in NY are you located?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

ummm.



MrsFergione said:


> I
> 
> >>>>> personally wouldn't be looking at show lines if you want a working dog. Look for working lines. Schutzhund is typically a working dog sport not a show dog sport. <<<<<





MrsFergione said:


> And
> 
> >>>>> I don't know about the lines <<<<<
> 
> ...


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I would advise you go to some Schutzhund clubs and watch the dogs. Find what you like and talk to the breeders of those dogs. You have lots of options in NYS.
> 
> where in NY are you located?


Lower Hudson Valley.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Show lines can definitely fit the bill with regards to a good family pet and doing some obedience. Whether or not these particular show lines would work I can't say as I don't follow show line pedigrees. You'd have to inquire with people who have more specific knowledge about the individual dogs. I certainly don't see any reason why this breeding wouldn't be able to provide a good pet and obedience dog, but then again I don't know the individual dogs or the traits that they bring.

For SchH/IPO work.. well, it depends. Yes, they are "highly titled". Typically all show lines are. But to not get too far into specifics, lets just say that there are different ways to get titled and very often those ways are vastly different between show and working lines. There is a difference between having the natural traits to do well, and just squeaking by under very favorable circumstances.

So whether or not this could be a good breeding for doing SchH depends on how much of a priority that is for you. If you want to dabble and wouldn't be heartbroken if the dog proved unsuitable for SchH, so long as it's still good for a pet and an obedience dog, then this could be a breeding worth looking into further. If you really, really want to do SchH and want a dog who has the genetic make up to do this well and fairly easily, I would recommend looking at working lines rather than show lines.

The advice to go visit clubs is excellent and this really should be your next step. It will allow you to see SchH first hand to better determine your interest level in this sort of training, and depending on the club it may also afford the opportunity to meet many different dogs of both types, working and show, so that you can get a better feel for each type, how different they can be with regards to SchH training, and which may be the best fit for you.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

Merciel said:


> The answer to that question gets, um, complicated.
> 
> I think it is honestly something that you're probably best off learning on your own by watching dogs train and trial in the real world. What you see with your own eyes may look very different from the impression you might develop based on forum chatter.
> 
> ...



THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT. It has been helpful.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> The advice to go visit clubs is excellent and this really should be your next step. It will allow you to see SchH first hand to better determine your interest level in this sort of training, and depending on the club it may also afford the opportunity to meet many different dogs of both types, working and show, so that you can get a better feel for each type, how different they can be with regards to SchH training, and which may be the best fit for you.


Thank you for your input. Your response has made me think that further research might be in order to speak to more breeders of both German show and working lines. I guess that I will be missing out on the currently identified breed pairing. I am basically looking for a balanced, good temperament pet dog for parks, for obedience training, with a noble head and good breed characteristics. Must be well bread for health with a long line of certified "a" hips and elbows. 

I want a dog who is good for family protection and very obedient, but not one that might snap and bite a small child who mistakenly tries to reach out and touch the "puppy" when I have my back turned at a park. This is one of my nightmare fears that is keeping me from trying a GSD rescue. 

Can you provide some information on where my next steps may lead me in continuing my research? What are some of the MOST WELL RESPECTED breeders and schutzhund clubs that I may contact for further information? 

I'd be willing to travel from Virginia to Maine (season/weather permitting) depending on the level of education that I can pickup over the course of a weekend day-trip starting from NYC. I would hope that my research and my personal situation would converge around Summer 2014 for making a firm and final GSD selection.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

im biased but unless you wanted a black and tan or black/red etc color i'd go with working line. there is nothing a working line dog cant do that a show line can. if you want to dabble in schutzhund then might as well get a dog that likes to work and more than likely will thrive and enjoy the work. you can find good temperment and good health in either line though. it's more about looking for a good breeder than it is trying to find a good dog.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Go to breed clubs and go to training clubs and go to different kinds of trials (AKC events, agility events, IPO/Schutzhund events, etc.). Watch the dogs not only when they're trialing but when they're going to and from the ring; see how they respond to other people and dogs in the crowd. Are they relaxed? Tense? Reactive?

Talk to anybody who has a dog that you like. Bring a notepad so you can write down breeder names and the names of the dogs that you saw and liked (I didn't do this in the beginning and I regret it -- names blur together VERY quickly, and many kennel names sound quite similar).

There are lots and lots of events you can get to from NYC. The more you develop your eye, the more you'll be able to see, so I suggest going to as many things as you can and asking all the questions you're able.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

*Very very confused, but still trying to learn*

OK. 

Now that I have researched further on this site, I can see that the bias of opinions are geared toward preference for pedigrees of working lines over show lines.


1st Question: How are working lines defined and/or identified? What makes a "working line"?. Is a line with sch3 titles make it a working line? What credentials tell you that it is a good working line for which I would want a dog to come from?

2nd Question: What makes a "show-line"? Is any win or high placement at a Sieger show make you believe that it is then a show-line? What are the physical or mental differences that make a working line unable to win or place high at a sieger show?

As a future GSD owner doing research, and someone with high scientific based reasoning skills, I really do not see the blatant differences that pedigree lines show that tells me that this is a working line or this is a show-line. And because of this I am quite confused.

The best advise that I have gotten under this thread is that I need to actually see the dogs in question. How they act under stress, in crowds, with children, while sch training, etc. But other than at shows, how does this take place? As we go into the winter months, the chances of catching a show or trials are quickly diminishing up here in the Northeast.

The first part of the research for a GSD is to do an internet search for breeders. On websites, almost all breeders look the same to me as an untrained eye. Each is trying to sell you on "something". Look how nice my facility is.....look at our pedigrees.......look how we family-rear our puppies......but all this could be one-time theatrics.... There was even a website that actually used enhanced photos for their dogs. Photos that were somehow "touched-up" because in the corner of the photo in the smallest of lettering it said "enhanced photo" and was from a "professional" photographer. This first part of the research process is suppose to help narrow down the suitable field, but instead it opens it up more.

I also have physically visited two "breeders" so far. Each was over 400 miles R/T away.

One did not have any pedigree information other than pictures to show me of one or two generations back of dogs, but touted their easy going temperament since they are breed by a religious order. Both the human contacts and the non-breeding dogs and puppies seemed very nice (except the breeding pairs), but on paper their pedigree line documentation would amount to a "stay-away" by most on this board.

The second one seemed more interested in getting the meeting over by giving me the short-tour. But on paper, the pedigrees were highly Sch titled, and some past generations placed high in Sieger from west german "show-lines" as per the opinions stated previously.

There must be a better way......


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Whether it is working line or show line comes down to bloodlines/pedigree. Not whether it has a show rating or working title as most dogs of both types are going to have those things if bred in the SV system. 

The only way to truly know if it is working or show is to be able to recognize the bloodlines and kennel names and know which type they are, and most newbies don't have that knowledge of kennels so you'll probably need to ask. Though you can get a pretty good idea by looking at photos of the dogs themselves. If they are black/tan or black/red, and every dog in the pedigree is that same color, it's show lines. If the dogs in the pedigree are a variety of colors... sables, blacks, dark black/tans, bi-colors... it's probably working lines as every color but black/tan has essentially been bred out of the show lines.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think there is a bias or preference toward WL pedigrees, I think that on this board, we have more people with extensive knowledge of those lines. People are going to be reluctant to say yay/nay to a dog or pick apart a pedigree with little to no experience with those dogs or lines.

Whether a dog is working or show lines depends on the lineage, not just the titles. A show line with no show card is still a show line just like a V rated working line is still a working line.

My advice is to get out and see the dogs. Watch them train and work. If you are interested in a particular venue (showing/conformation, Schutzhund, sports....) then go watch dogs performing. See which ones you like, ask who bred them, talk to those people. Breeders will always have very nice things to say about their dogs and the breeding pairs they chose but that doesn't always translate into what you want. I think it's more difficult to know what you want than to find it, if that makes sense. What I want in my dogs has changed over the years of living with them, training, and competing.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

nynewbie said:


> As a future GSD owner doing research, and someone with high scientific based reasoning skills, I really do not see the blatant differences that pedigree lines show that tells me that this is a working line or this is a show-line. And because of this I am quite confused.
> 
> The best advise that I have gotten under this thread is that I need to actually see the dogs in question. How they act under stress, in crowds, with children, while sch training, etc. But other than at shows, how does this take place? As we go into the winter months, the chances of catching a show or trials are quickly diminishing up here in the Northeast.


It takes time to be able to spot the differences. I spent about a month looking at pictures of different dogs before I could semi-reliably tell an American show line from a German show line from a working line dog based on its physical appearance. And my eye is really undeveloped compared to a lot of people on this board -- there are all sorts of subtleties that I miss when it comes to evaluating physical structure and soundness.

Being able to distinguish the different types visually is just something that you have to practice. It comes with time, if you want it to.

re: catching shows -- it's actually not at all difficult to find indoor trials along the East Coast this time of year. I'm doing WCRL Rally trials on 11/30, 12/6, 12/7, 12/8, and 12/14 (this is all part of my insane run at finishing Pongu's ARCHEX this year and taking a shot at his ARCHMX by next February. I'm doing this because there's a particular title ribbon I really want to get at the February trial. This is what dog sports does to your brain. It is derangement, I tell you, _derangement_).

Anyway. Those are the trials available for one sport in one registry in one month within 2 1/2 hours of Philadelphia. I will tell you right now that you're not going to see that many German Shepherds competing in that venue in our region, though, so if your goal is to see a bunch of GSDs you can pretty much skip right over World Cynosport Rally. (I am still not sure why this sport has so few GSDs, but I suspect it's because the course design tends to favor smaller dogs. That, and GSDs are just not as popular in obedience generally as they used to be.)

Where you _should_ look is: American Kennel Club - Event and Awards Search then skip on down to the "Obedience/Agility/AKC Rally" tab and search the states you feel like driving to. At most AKC events you will see predominantly American show lines and pet lines with a sprinkling of German show lines and working line dogs.

United Schutzhund Clubs of America • Events shows one IPO trial in New Jersey this weekend, otherwise not a lot coming up over the next couple of months. However, the clubs page United Schutzhund Clubs of America • Clubs can get you started on where to find regional clubs, where you can go meet a bunch of different dogs and watch them training. The training is often a lot more revealing than the trialing anyway.


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## nynewbie (Nov 16, 2013)

Merciel said:


> United Schutzhund Clubs of America • Events shows one IPO trial in New Jersey this weekend, otherwise not a lot coming up over the next couple of months. However, the clubs page United Schutzhund Clubs of America • Clubs can get you started on where to find regional clubs, where you can go meet a bunch of different dogs and watch them training. The training is often a lot more revealing than the trialing anyway.


I was planning to attend the IPO trial in NJ anyway as part of my breed research. I thank you and Chris of Wildhaus for your continued non-judgemental help and educated guidance, thru both of your "leveled" and measured responses to a new person's questions.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh good, I'm glad you're going to be able to attend! I would have liked to go as well, but I have a new foster dog coming in on the evening of the 30th (just a couple of hours after I get back from Pongu's Rally trial that day) so I'm going to have to give that trial a miss.

I hope you'll be able to get some pictures and post a trial recap, if you're even remotely interested in doing so. I ask this selfishly, of course, because I love recaps. 

The only caution I would make about judging dogs based on what you see at an IPO trial (or any other performance event, for that matter) is that you're getting a relatively polished picture at that type of event. People generally don't trial unless they think their dogs are ready for showtime. Sometimes they misjudge, and of course loads of unexpected things happen on trial day, but for the _most_ part, what you're seeing is the final product of a whole lotta time spent training and proofing.

So what you see at a trial is an example of what you can achieve after many, many weeks, months, or years of focused work. You're also watching dogs who have been drilled to perform those specific exercises, very possibly in that specific sequence.

This can sometimes give people a somewhat misleading view of what it's actually like to _live_ with such a dog, particularly if you do not intend to engage in that type of specialized training for all those weeks, months, or years. A dog that does a great focused Heel at a trial doesn't necessarily go for casual walks around the neighborhood the same way.

I'm just throwing this out there as a general caution because one thing I've noticed (and am personally prone to, myself) is that it is incredibly tempting to want an admirably flashy and precise "trainer's dog," but that perfect picture only comes to exist if you want to make it your whole life to get there. Meanwhile, a calmer, less flashy dog may actually be a million times easier to live with in a normal household setting.

On the other hand, if you DO want to make that your whole life (or at least a major hobby), go forth and be inspired. And then ask those people where they got their dogs and how much work they had to do to get there.


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