# This breeder claims his dog's food aggression is "food drive".



## Wolfgeist

van Tiekerhook - Fooddrive!






I was absolutely shocked and disgusted to see this. I can hardly believe he is praising his own dogs for showing both food aggression and fear aggression towards him. I cannot imagine how he would think this kind of behavioural enforcement would benefit his dogs OR the breed.

It breaks my heart to read the body language on the second/black dog. She looks fearful and uncertain of what the handler is doing - there is a great amount mistrust in her wide eyes.

I do not care what a dog is trained for, or what breed they are, but they should never exhibit such behaviour. That to me shows a dog that is NOT sound. He has the nerve to label such behaviour as "real food drive"! I would never, ever, ever allow this sort of behaviour in my dogs. I would do everything in my power to correct it.

Has anyone seen this before? Please tell me this isn't a common practice for breeders to praise their dogs for food aggression. I personally have not seen it before now, but it really unnerved and upset me.


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## DCluver33

what is he thinking?!?! that's. it food drive that's flat out food aggression!!!!!! then he's praising it!! do you know how long thYs going to take to get rid of, if it can even be trained out of the dog?!?! I would defiantly NOT buy a dog from him and I'd let everyone I know not to either. that's just wrong


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## sagelfn

I am at work so I watched it without audio. I am disgusted.  Poor dogs


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## Lin

Oh my god.


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## Caitydid255

I think what makes it worse is you can see him instigating the behavior. Watch as he keeps tapping at the legs and face of the black dog. I find this completely disturbing.


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## Wolfgeist

I am so glad I am not alone in my opinion of this!

I just wanted to point out that he is a BREEDER with a website, and apparently is holding seminars! Is this not a step back for the German Shepherd breed? Is his plan to breed this false 'drive' into all of his dogs? I am terrified to think of the result.


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## sagelfn

Did anyone read some of the comments defending this?


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## Wolfgeist

sagelfn said:


> Did anyone read some of the comments defending this?


My husband and I both did, and were shocked by some of those comments. I can't help but wonder how many owners praise their dogs for "real food drive".


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## Caitydid255

"what the UNTRAINED EYE is looking at is food agression. if you look at it from experience they are demostrating survival instinct...they feel that the person or animals around them have the ability to take﻿ thier food from﻿ them...is it right depends on the dog you are breeding...do i feel the dogs will attck him if he tries to touch the food...definately. But if you look at the subtlies of the video he is also correcting the dogs directed agrression and praising them for stopping...."

This comment has to take the cake. There is a great difference between survival instinct and food aggression. After having a dog with food aggression I feel I can definably say that this is food aggression. Even if this is "survival instinct" the dog should not have to feel it needs to defend its food against a human.


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## Wolfgeist

Caitydid255 said:


> "what the UNTRAINED EYE is looking at is food agression. if you look at it from experience they are demostrating survival instinct...they feel that the person or animals around them have the ability to take﻿ thier food from﻿ them...is it right depends on the dog you are breeding...do i feel the dogs will attck him if he tries to touch the food...definately. But if you look at the subtlies of the video he is also correcting the dogs directed agrression and praising them for stopping...."
> 
> This comment has to take the cake. There is a great difference between survival instinct and food aggression. After having a dog with food aggression I feel I can definably say that this is food aggression. Even if this is "survival instinct" the dog should not have to feel it needs to defend its food against a human.


I do not understand how they see the handler correcting the aggression and then praising for stopping. That is ridiculous. It is obvious that the handler is praising the aggressive behaviour.


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## Zahnburg

When you have accomplished what Koos has, then you can make comments about him and his breeding program. 
Whatever you (or I for that matter) think of Koos and his dogs is rather irrelevant. Tiekerhook speaks for itself, and has done so for quite sometime. 
I always find it rather humerous that those who know the least always have the most certain and steadfast positions.


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## idahospud49

What the heck??? Wow, that is just nuts. One of the first things I do when I get a puppy is see what their food drive is like. (I just never knew before I found this website that that is what you would call it.. ) There are always little kids around and I feel it is very important for my dog to not be possessive or aggressive about their food. Amadeus was the type of dog where I could literally and did take bones out of his mouth. Some people may not "condone" that, but I was confident that anyone could come by and pet or move him while he was eating without fear or worry of harm.


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## Wolfgeist

Zahnburg said:


> When you have accomplished what Koos has, then you can make comments about him and his breeding program.
> Whatever you (or I for that matter) think of Koos and his dogs is rather irrelevant. Tiekerhook speaks for itself, and has done so for quite sometime.
> I always find it rather humerous that those who know the least always have the most certain and steadfast positions.



I beg your pardon. I am a certified Animal Care Technician that specializes in dogs and dog behaviour, with a passion for the breed and a great deal of knowledge on both breeding and canine behaviour. I also worked for a breeder, and was thoroughly exposed to the breeding world.

I stated my opinion on this, and wanted to make sure this type of thing wasn't practiced among other breeders. (For my own peace of mind.) You are entitled to your opinion, as all people are, but I ask that you respect me and anyone else and not assume I "know the least" just because my opinion is different from yours.


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## Zahnburg

LOL Wild Wolf. That does not put you in a position to judge Koos Hassing. There are some people in a position to judge Koos and his breeding program, but I am quite certain that you are not one of them.


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## Wolfgeist

Zahnburg said:


> LOL Wild Wolf. That does not put you in a position to judge Koos Hassing. There are some people in a position to judge Koos and his breeding program, but I am quite certain that you are not one of them.


That is silly, Zahnburg. I have the right to state my opinion, especially when it comes to something as serious as rewarding negative aggression. I believe that breeders are to be judged by everyone, and especially by their methods and the dogs they produce. I may not be a judge at some prestigious dog show, but I can recognize poor training methods when I see them. As my husband says, "You don't need to be a chef to know the food tastes terrible."

I will not continue this conversation with you.


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## sagelfn

Art, I've never heard of the guy and I'm not going to waste any time to google him.

I don't care how many titles the guy has earned. As far as I'm concerned put him in the same boat as people who have gotten titles on some seriously weaked nerved SL dogs so bad everyone is confident the titles were bought.

No one is allowed to do whatever they want because they have a certain reputation.

Care to explain why this should be defended?


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## Samba

I doubt Koos is in much need of defense from us.


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## CarrieJ

I'm such a weenie, I went back to the first post intending to watch the video and read the post that went with it and just couldn't bring myself to watch it.

Sorry, I'll come back and try again...it just sounds horrifyingly (is that a word?) wrong on many levels.


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## sagelfn

Samba said:


> I doubt Koos is in much need of defense from us.


OKay better choice of words...

Can someone explain why what he is doing isn't bad? What is the purpose? 

I disagree with people who string up dogs but I know why they are doing it.

Why is this guy doing this? How is this behavior desireable? 

This does not look like a desireable behavior to me


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## Zahnburg

Wild Wolf, you are silly indeed. Breeders are judged; the way that they are judged is weather or not people buy pups from them, not on a pet message board. You certainly do have a right to state your opinion, but my point is that your opinion does not mean anything. You are not in a position to judge Koos , except in the capacity of not buying a pup from him.
Am I calling Koos and asking for a pup? No; but that certainly does not put me in a position to judge what he is doing. 
I do not blame you for not wanting to discuss this, as I am pretty sure that you do not know what you are talking about.

Brandi,

If you own a German Shpherd Dog and are unaware of Koos and Tiekerhook I find this mind-boggling.


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## sagelfn

Zahnburg said:


> Brandi,
> 
> If you own a German Shpherd Dog and are unaware of Koos and Tiekerhook I find this mind-boggling.


Sorry Art. I have not heard of him or seen his kennel mentioned.

I did google him and saw "world famous Tiekerhook kennel" but do not have time right now to read and learn about him.

Still does not answer my question though.


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## kidkhmer

** Removed by Admin **


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## GSDElsa

WOW! Don't like what I"m seeing there. Yikes. Whatever Koos' purpose was for doing that, I don't know. 

For people in this thread...Tiekerhook is definitely in the upper echelon of being one of the most influential breeders of GSD's out there. I DO find it disappointing that that video is on you tube. Whatever HIS reason for doing it is not something that should be encouraged on the internet for some idiot to try.


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## DeeMcB

GSDElsa said:


> I DO find it disappointing that that video is on you tube. Whatever HIS reason for doing it is not something that should be encouraged on the internet for some idiot to try.


That's a good point. 

There's a lack of context around what he's doing that makes it more likely that unexperienced, untrained handlers will try this method and end up with dangerous, undesirable results. Based on his reputation & achievements, one would assume that he's interested in advancing the breed. However, the video may do more to hurt the breed than to help it...Even if he has sound reasoning and methodology behind it.


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## GSDElsa

Here's a little write-up and video on Max, the first dog on the fooddrive video

Max van Tiekerhook – protection

and a thread from PBD
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=240899


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## Wolfgeist

Regardless of how long he has been in the business, or how excellent his dogs do in competition, or even the pedigrees from which he has bred - I do not agree with his method of encouraging and training this "real food drive". I did not create this thread to evaluate his pedigrees (even though it is interesting to look at), I wanted to know whether or not this sort of "training/encouragement" happened elsewhere - I strongly disagree with encouraging food aggression and labeling it as food drive. For those of you willing to defend such a thing, please defend it when somebody (especially a small child) gets bitten or attacked when they unknowingly approach a dog that is eating and has been taught that food aggression is positive.

Every breeder, regardless of their experience, should be judged by every single person. I judge every breeder I come across, and determine whether or not I would have a dog from them. I am sure everyone else here does this as well. If we did not judge breeders, we would believe it okay to purchase from a backyard breeder and encourage friends to buy cheap, badly bred puppies from the guy down the road. This would also encourage breeders to do whatever they saw fit because nobody will judge them for their poor decisions. 

You should judge what this breeder is doing. He is not perfect, despite the fact you believe him to be elite. I suppose since I have never heard of him until now I am but a low life that does not deserve to own a German Shepherd, nor do I have any right to discuss my opinion about a training method being used by this reputable breeder. I am quite stupid and uninformed, correct? I have no idea what I am talking about. Food aggression is good. Our dogs should attack us when we approach them during meal time, this is real food drive.

Somebody please tell me I am not going crazy.


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## Courtney

From what I understand Koos Hassing is a very respected breeder of working line GSD. These are dogs that work, their not hanging out with the family snuggeling on the couch. 

While I agree the video is disturbing for _me_ to watch and it's a short clip w/ no explanation, but I have to believe I just don't understand. 

I'm curious what others have to say who breed/train working line dogs in regards to this video & Koos Hassing? Is there a huge difference with the way these dogs are trained vs. how they are trained in the US?


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## GSDElsa

Wild Wolf said:


> I suppose since I have never heard of him until now I am but a low life that does not deserve to own a German Shepherd, nor do I have any right to discuss my opinion about a training method being used by this reputable breeder. I am quite stupid and uninformed, correct? I have no idea what I am talking about. Food aggression is good. Our dogs should attack us when we approach them during meal time, this is real food drive.


Oh brother...melodramatic much? 

Anyhow...I already said I don't like it nor the fact it's a video available to the public. Nor something I would ever do (and not something that 99% of the population should do). However, considering the person doing the video, I'd like to know the context and purpose for it. 

I am not judging nor encouraging what he is doing because I simply don't know the purpose of it. Probably not to attack little kids during feeding time, though.


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## Wolfgeist

Courtney said:


> From what I understand Koos Hassing is a very respected breeder of working line GSD. These are dogs that work, their not hanging out with the family snuggeling on the couch.
> 
> While I agree the video is disturbing for _me_ to watch and it's a short clip w/ no explanation, but I have to believe I just don't understand.
> 
> I'm curious what others have to say who breed/train working line dogs in regards to this video & Koos Hassing? Is there a huge difference with the way these dogs are trained vs. how they are trained in the US?


I definitely would love to hear opinions from other breeders, perhaps they can shed light on why this would benefit the dog. I honestly do not fathom how this could be beneficial to the dogs or to the breed.


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## crackem

i had a dog out of a tiekerhook female, and she was very nice. tough, well balanced, and yes, she snuggled on the couch. 

i'm not sure on his video, I personally have problems with it, but it helps him make breeding decisions, then whatever he is doing, he can keep doing it.

I'd imagine there is quite a bit of context missing that is not relayed in the video, but I can't fill in those blanks.

I prefer to use food to my benefit in my relationship with my dog, so any food aggression is counterconditioned early on. I don't have those issues. not because they dont' like food, but because they aren't put in a position where they need to fight for it. 

They've learned they're getting stuff from me, it's always coming, and it's good. If someone else is getting some, if they do what I ask, they'll get some too, if they fight for it, they won't.


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## Wolfgeist

GSDElsa said:


> Oh brother...melodramatic much?
> 
> Anyhow...I already said I don't like it nor the fact it's a video available to the public. Nor something I would ever do (and not something that 99% of the population should do). However, considering the person doing the video, I'd like to know the context and purpose for it.
> 
> I am not judging nor encouraging what he is doing because I simply don't know the purpose of it. Probably not to attack little kids during feeding time, though.


Yes, I meant for it to be VERY melodramatic. I am just trying to make my point. I find what was said to me very unfair, and even illogical.


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## Wolfgeist

crackem said:


> i had a dog out of a tiekerhook female, and she was very nice. tough, well balanced, and yes, she snuggled on the couch.
> 
> i'm not sure on his video, I personally have problems with it, but it helps him make breeding decisions, then whatever he is doing, he can keep doing it.
> 
> I'd imagine there is quite a bit of context missing that is not relayed in the video, but I can't fill in those blanks.
> 
> I prefer to use food to my benefit in my relationship with my dog, so any food aggression is counterconditioned early on. I don't have those issues. not because they dont' like food, but because they aren't put in a position where they need to fight for it.
> 
> They've learned they're getting stuff from me, it's always coming, and it's good. If someone else is getting some, if they do what I ask, they'll get some too, if they fight for it, they won't.


Thanks for sharing! I just wanted to mention again that I was not badmouthing his dogs, just the technique displayed in the video. You are right, however, that we are missing quite a bit of information here. I was just posting based on the information provided directly from the video and site.


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## GSDBESTK9

My Gala's great grandfather is V Nick vom Heiligenbösch, WUSV 1999, 3*BSP, SCHH3, FH1, Koos Hassing's foundation male. Everyone involved in pedigrees and working lines should know and has heard of Koos and his world known popular kennel Tiekerhook. I have to agree that this video is very short and provides no information really. We don't know the reason behind it so it is very difficult to judge. No, I don't agree with praising food aggression, but again, we don't know Koos' reason for this video so I would not dare judge.


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## holland

Maybe he wanted to post it-view the comments on the internet and laugh-maybe he taught his dogs to growl


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## Chris Wild

GSDBESTK9 said:


> My Gala's great grandfather is V Nick vom Heiligenbösch, WUSV 1999, 3*BSP, SCHH3, FH1, Koos Hassing's foundation male.


While Koos had Nick of course and much of his modern breedings go back on Nick, this was not his "foundation male". Tiekerhook kennels was around decades before Nick was even born.

On the video, I don't agree with it or the interpretation of the behavior as being "food drive" myself. Nor is it something I would want, genetically or behaviorally, in a dog. But everyone has different preferences. No one can argue with Koos' success or knowledge, nor is it reasonable to speculate what he thinks he is getting out of this sort of evaluation that may provide him information for breeding decisions. Most certainly there is a reason for it, a reason that makes sense to him and a probably a good deal of other people, and may play a part in him consistently producing the sort of dogs he does. That doesn't mean that everyone, not even everyone into working dogs, has that same preference or likes the sort of dog this produces. Nor does it mean either is right or wrong, just different strokes...


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## Wolfgeist

Chris Wild said:


> While Koos had Nick of course and much of his modern breedings go back on Nick, this was not his "foundation male". Tiekerhook kennels was around decades before Nick was even born.
> 
> On the video, I don't agree with it or the interpretation of the behavior as being "food drive" myself. Nor is it something I would want, genetically or behaviorally, in a dog. But everyone has different preferences. No one can argue with Koos' success or knowledge, nor is it reasonable to speculate what he thinks he is getting out of this sort of evaluation that may provide him information for breeding decisions. Most certainly there is a reason for it, a reason that makes sense to him and a probably a good deal of other people, and may play a part in him consistently producing the sort of dogs he does. That doesn't mean that everyone, not even everyone into working dogs, has that same preference or likes the sort of dog this produces. Nor does it mean either is right or wrong, just different strokes...


Thank you so much for your input, it is very true that everyone has different preferences. From what I have learned today, it seems he does indeed produce some impressive dogs despite this "real food drive" that I strongly disagree with. (Again though, I was judging the method in question not the quality of his dogs) I would not like to see this behaviour bred into the German Shepherd, and will always disagree with encouraging food aggression.


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## AbbyK9

Something that really bothers me about this thread is that a lot of people are viewing this video, then come back to the forum and say, "Well, we don't know what Koos is doing or why he is doing it, but it's Koos and he knows what he's doing and has excellent dogs, so there's obviously a point to it."

I guess this poses the following question for me, which I'd like to pose to the board - if you were given this video and did not know the breeder/handler in the video or the dogs and their lines, would you feel the same way? Or would you look at the video and say, "Why in the world is this person encouraging food aggression and trying to tell people that this is "food drive", rather than aggression?!" 

I don't like the idea that we see something that is objectionable (encouraging food aggression) and immediately excuse it because we know the person who is doing it and know that he has an excellent breeding program. If this was someone people don't know, everyone would be up in arms about it.

I am not understanding the double standard.


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## GSDElsa

The same reason, I suppose, that we'd object if we saw a video of some thug teaching his dog to attack to injure people versus our favorite gsds.com member posting a video of their dog doing bitework.


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## Whiteshepherds

AbbyK9 said:


> I don't like the idea that we see something that is objectionable (encouraging food aggression) and immediately excuse it because we know the person who is doing it and know that he has an excellent breeding program. If this was someone people don't know, everyone would be up in arms about it.


:thumbup:


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## Syaoransbear

I wonder if the purpose of this is to associate collar pops and flanking with aggression and try to get it to manifest as defense drive when working?

Whatever he's doing, I don't consider that an accurate depiction of food drive. I've seen plenty of dogs with little desire to work for food go absolutely nuts when you go near them when they are eating.


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## Sunstreaked

Wouldn't this automatically get a dog killed in a shelter as they would be classified as unadoptable?


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## Syaoransbear

Sunstreaked said:


> Wouldn't this automatically get a dog killed in a shelter as they would be classified as unadoptable?


Pretty much, but there's no way this dog would ever end up in a shelter.


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## Dainerra

Syaoransbear said:


> Pretty much, but there's no way this dog would ever end up in a shelter.


there's no such thing as "no way" car accident on the way back from a trial or event, even from the vet's office. dog gets out of the car and next thing you know is in a shelter. biting a worker at feeding time would at a MINIMUM result in the dog having a bite history and being listed at aggressive. If the owner is incapacitated it is entirely possible and very easy that the dog would be put down as adoptable. In some areas, strays have as little as 24 hours before being put down - esp if they are viewed as aggressive


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## Jason L

Chris Wild said:


> On the video, I don't agree with it or the interpretation of the behavior as being "food drive" myself. Nor is it something I would want, genetically or behaviorally, in a dog. But everyone has different preferences. No one can argue with Koos' success or knowledge, nor is it reasonable to speculate what he thinks he is getting out of this sort of evaluation that may provide him information for breeding decisions. Most certainly there is a reason for it, a reason that makes sense to him and a probably a good deal of other people, and may play a part in him consistently producing the sort of dogs he does. That doesn't mean that everyone, not even everyone into working dogs, has that same preference or likes the sort of dog this produces. Nor does it mean either is right or wrong, just different strokes...


I completely agree with this. I have known trainers who have gone the route of food aggression for training purposes ... but often that's because an innately strong food drive is lacking in the dogs. So they go the route of aggression as a way to compensate. It's his program and his training, and like Chris said, maybe that kind of possessive aggression is what he is looking for. Still probably shouldn't be on the internet like that though, as a stand alone 30 sec piece labeled "Food Drive".


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## Syaoransbear

Dainerra said:


> there's no such thing as "no way" car accident on the way back from a trial or event, even from the vet's office. dog gets out of the car and next thing you know is in a shelter. biting a worker at feeding time would at a MINIMUM result in the dog having a bite history and being listed at aggressive.


I suppose in a rare event like that it's possible, I just meant that this isn't a regular dog that's going to wind up in a shelter because its owner's wife had a baby or something.


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## Chris Wild

GSDElsa said:


> The same reason, I suppose, that we'd object if we saw a video of some thug teaching his dog to attack to injure people versus our favorite gsds.com member posting a video of their dog doing bitework.


 Very similar, yes. There are plenty of people out there, including many on this board, who are horrified at the idea of protection work or many other things that others would consider to be normal. 

While I have some pretty good ideas of why this is being done, I can't say I understand why someone would go that route, nor do I agree with it on any level. I can't understand how or why certain people want certain temperament traits and behaviors and other things in their dogs in the first place. Nor why anyone would put a dog through something like this to create that sort of behavior in the first place. But then I have long known that Koos' preferences in many areas regarding what he likes in a dog, both in terms of genetics and behavior, are rather different than mine. Again, different strokes. There are people out there that like this sort of thing in a dog and have what to them is a valid reason for doing it. But even though I don't like it or agree with it or want it and personally find it disturbing, I am more willing to cut some slack to someone with this experience level, who undoubtedly does have a reason even if it doesn't make sense to anyone but him, than with Joe Schmoe off the street who has no reason or purpose for doing it.


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## 1sttimeforgsd

I know I am new to gsd's, but I have raised a few dogs over my years including Rotti's and Dobe's and never would I consider what he is doing as acceptable. I could always take things from my dogs that I did not want them to eat, and I could not imagine a toddler walking up to those dogs bowls. My opinion and everyone knows we all have one, is that what he is training those dogs to do is very wrong.


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## AgileGSD

I think it boils down to different people have different ideas about what is or isn't desirable in a working or sport dog. You don't have to agree with it or find it practical but it won't change anyone's mind. I could be wrong but I doubt these dogs are living as pets in this breeder's home, so the normal issues that come with resource guarding in daily life are probably not really a concern.


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## rjvamp

That is scary. Period. As in my opinion


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## sagelfn

I don't understand what purpose this serves. I can't stop wondering if this is how every meal is with these dogs. Working dog or not, a dog should be able to relax and eat IMO. I don't see how this kind of stress on a dog is a good thing. 

I think it is plain stupid and irresponsible to post a short clip on the internet with no explanation of what/why he is doing this. For that reason I flagged the video.


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## tierra nuestra

:thumbup:


AbbyK9 said:


> Something that really bothers me about this thread is that a lot of people are viewing this video, then come back to the forum and say, "Well, we don't know what Koos is doing or why he is doing it, but it's Koos and he knows what he's doing and has excellent dogs, so there's obviously a point to it."
> 
> I guess this poses the following question for me, which I'd like to pose to the board - if you were given this video and did not know the breeder/handler in the video or the dogs and their lines, would you feel the same way? Or would you look at the video and say, "Why in the world is this person encouraging food aggression and trying to tell people that this is "food drive", rather than aggression?!"
> 
> I don't like the idea that we see something that is objectionable (encouraging food aggression) and immediately excuse it because we know the person who is doing it and know that he has an excellent breeding program. If this was someone people don't know, everyone would be up in arms about it.
> 
> I am not understanding the double standard.


my view exactly.being swayed by a brand or name should not justify wrong.period.


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## holland

Silly guy-he probably didn't feel the need to expalin himself-and you are so right do not be swayed by a name-it is such a good thing that that does not happen here


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## GregK

It's not food drive, it's resource guarding and the guy's a moron for teaching/encouraging it! UGH!!! :angryfire:


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## GSDElsa

Just out of curiosity, how many people on here have ever seen a dog on a "table" being trained? And if so, what are your thoughts on it?


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## holland

LOL there is table training in the show ring-sometimes they fall off-once the leonberger tried it and busted the table-I have seen the hold and some other things being trained on the table-but other than that I have not seen it so I don't really understand the purpose for it in terms of protection


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## Wolfgeist

AbbyK9 said:


> Something that really bothers me about this thread is that a lot of people are viewing this video, then come back to the forum and say, "Well, we don't know what Koos is doing or why he is doing it, but it's Koos and he knows what he's doing and has excellent dogs, so there's obviously a point to it."
> 
> I guess this poses the following question for me, which I'd like to pose to the board - if you were given this video and did not know the breeder/handler in the video or the dogs and their lines, would you feel the same way? Or would you look at the video and say, "Why in the world is this person encouraging food aggression and trying to tell people that this is "food drive", rather than aggression?!"
> 
> I don't like the idea that we see something that is objectionable (encouraging food aggression) and immediately excuse it because we know the person who is doing it and know that he has an excellent breeding program. If this was someone people don't know, everyone would be up in arms about it.
> 
> I am not understanding the double standard.



I am so glad you said this. I decided to bite my tongue and leave it alone because I feel like people who know this breeder are disregarding what the video shows, and are being aggressive towards me for 'judging' or 'questioning' such behaviour. Thank you thank you thank you for posting this, you said what I feel I couldn't. I AGREE WITH YOU 100%.


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## Todd

Wonder what age he starts that type of training?  In an interview on his website he made some references to puppies that you can read for yourself van Tiekerhook - Interview with Koos Hassing He talks about puppies, survival instincts, and agression about halfway down.

IF he does start that training with puppies, couldn't that be a dangerous situation? Not commenting on the quality of his dogs, or their abilities. However, I THINK the vast majority of us have our dogs in the house, around children and other people who may not be smart enough to be around a dog like that. 

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of GSDs that are pretty easy to get along with that seem like they would defend their owners to the end. YMMV...


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## elisabeth_00117

GSDElsa said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many people on here have ever seen a dog on a "table" being trained? And if so, what are your thoughts on it?


I have no problems with table work as long as the trainer/helper doing it does it with knowledge, experience and the right goals in mind.

Stark has been on the table a few times and I have no issues with the way we trained with it.


I will say that no matter how many titles, how "real" I want my next dog, this video alone, would make me shy away from this breeder. I understand that this is just a small part of a training session or whatever - but my version of what a GSD should be does not include a dog who will attack/bite their handler in any circumstance with that amount of aggression.


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## GSDElsa

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I have no problems with table work as long as the trainer/helper doing it does it with knowledge, experience and the right goals in mind.
> 
> Stark has been on the table a few times and I have no issues with the way we trained with it.


And think about how many people think it's pure torture for a dog........whether it's Gene England or Joe Schmo doing it. Not sure I want to put one of my own dogs up there with Gene, but I understand he has a point to what he's doing.

I think a 30 second video of that would probably create the same response within people.


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## wolfstraum

Tiekerhook is indeed a well known kennel. It is also a very sucessful kennel according to many people. It is also a kennel that does 2-2 linebreedings and produces very small litters whose pups are sold for astronomical puppy prices. When I attended a club in Belgium (just over the border from the Netherlands - where Tiekerhook is located) I got a very different take on the reputation of this kennel than the one some people in the sport have here.............VERY different!!!!!! 

Personally I would not want a dog from this kennel. the line breeding is just too close, the whole mystique is just that ..... early on, there were some wonderful dogs coming out of here that are in the foundation of many other kennels....some of my own dogs carry Estera Tiekerhook - but the current program has NOTHING to do with the program of 20-30 years ago....

Heavy compulsion training is still a staple in Europe. Dogs are kept in kennels and bred until they cannot conceive any longer. In some big show kennels, dogs live in crates with short breaks for training and potty time (if they are lucky)....we are much different here in our management and requirements. 


Lee


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## Cassidy's Mom

Wonder how many times that guy has gotten bit doing that?


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## katieliz

even people who have a great deal of experience, and a large reputation, can be wrong.


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## BlackthornGSD

katieliz said:


> even people who have a great deal of experience, and a large reputation, can be wrong.


Very well phrased. 

Koos is a famous breeder--not so famous for his training. 

Since the video is out of context, it's hard to say, but I almost thought the point was the food drive was so high the dogs wouldn't stop eating even though they were being bothered, flanked, etc.


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## Wolfgeist

katieliz said:


> even people who have a great deal of experience, and a large reputation, can be wrong.


Very well said!


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## Sunstreaked

Seems like they're breeding a product, not a dog, but I know that's just my opinion.


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## GSD07

Wild Wolf said:


> ..and are being aggressive towards me for 'judging' or 'questioning' such behaviour.


 People become defensive if not everyone worships their gods. I think it's pretty understandable.


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## Jax08

I'm certainly no expert but that video, just the short bursts of it, didn't look like food drive to me. That looked like flat out food aggression. Food drive, to me, would be the willingness to work for food and those dogs weren't working for the food, they were ready to kill their handler for being near it. Now, what I'd like to know is if that was a learned behavior or if that is an inherited aggression.


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## Konotashi

Jax08 said:


> I'm certainly no expert but that video, just the short bursts of it, didn't look like food drive to me. That looked like flat out food aggression. *Food drive, to me, would be the willingness to work for food and those dogs weren't working for the food, they were ready to kill their handler for being near it.* Now, what I'd like to know is if that was a learned behavior or if that is an inherited aggression.


I agree.


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## onyx'girl

The dogs are probably kenneled when not working so mealtime is once a day, and very valued....and they get hungry pacing the kennel. 
Patting them up, flanking them just encourages the behavior, and it looked to me that they did defer to the handler. I doubt the dogs need to be "social" pets.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I always hope when I see these professional type people...that when they are old...or helpless and reliant upon someone to provide them with their basics, that there is payback. 

In fact, if I had the money I would sign up to bring in a beautiful meal, right out of reach when the time comes. Day in and day out. 

I realize that this is not a nice statement, and has nothing to do with dog training, but when you watch dogs grieve, play, respond in the way that dogs do, to see them treated like that...no words.


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## DharmasMom

I'm no expert and I wouldn't know Koos whoever from Popeye the Sailor Man. But I thought that video was disturbing and bordered on cruel. It's horrible that the dogs are trained like that but that black dog actually looked fearful that someone was going to take her food away. No dog should have to eat like that. They should not feel like they have to fight for their meals. All other reasonings aside- the dog could bite, etc,- it just isn't nice for the dog. Like Jean said, how would Koos Koos like it if he were dependent upon someone else for his meals and every time the meal was brought, the person who brought it held it out of his reach, let him have a bite then threatened to take it away and continued on and on through out the meal. It's just mean.

He may be the best breeder on the planet but I can't respect someone who treats their dogs like that.


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## codmaster

All I can think of is "WOW".

Looks like a training session in Bizzaro Land!

(the exact opposite of what one would want life to be like!)


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## Wolfgeist

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I always hope when I see these professional type people...that when they are old...or helpless and reliant upon someone to provide them with their basics, that there is payback.
> 
> In fact, if I had the money I would sign up to bring in a beautiful meal, right out of reach when the time comes. Day in and day out.
> 
> I realize that this is not a nice statement, and has nothing to do with dog training, but when you watch dogs grieve, play, respond in the way that dogs do, to see them treated like that...no words.


That is a powerful metaphor. I understand what you are trying to say, though. I agree that it is very difficult to watch dogs being stressed like that. I was very upset when I originally stumbled across this video, which was why I posted this in the first place. I wanted to be certain this wasn't a common practice among breeders.


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## Wolfgeist

DharmasMom said:


> He may be the best breeder on the planet but I can't respect someone who treats their dogs like that.


Very well said!


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## Chris Wild

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wonder how many times that guy has gotten bit doing that?


Probably quite a few. And every last one was well deserved. I've known people who played these games with their dogs, tormenting the dog over it's food or toys to bring out this sort of behavior. Often just to show off to their training buddies to prove what a tough dog they had, how tough they were to handle such a beast and how brave they were to instigate that behavior, and they wore their bite scars with pride as proof of that. Some I know were just plain sadistic. But even more bizarre, there were many, as I'm sure is the case here, that for some strange reason felt that it was a valuable thing to do, and that their training or their evaluation of the dog's mettle required it. And I can't even begin to fathom why. Thankfully, this attitude is less widespread than it used to be, though it's still not dead either here or in Europe.

I've never understood it at all. Particularly after once ending up as a retirement home for a dog who was treated this way by several handlers, and the baggage that he brought with him because of it.


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## GSDElsa

I think Chris has summed it up nicely for me (always better at explaining). Don't like it (certainly do not like the fact it's ONLINE...that one is even worse than doing it for me). Wouldn't ever do it. Wouldn't ever let someone do it to my dog. Wouldn't ever buy a done has had this done to it. But am not surprised by it.

I have had a bit of a morbid curiosity with Tiekerhook...one of the first times I heard about 2-2 linebreeding was done by Koos and I set out to research it more and his kennel (as it turns out he is quite the fan of close linebreeding). I also came across a 3-part interview with him. I dont' remember the particulars, but he more or less feels that a huge contributing factor to the downfall of the GSD is all these nice, new-fangled tools that people use on their dogs (ie clicker and food rewards) because it hides undesirable traits. Yes, Koos is and will be "old school" til the end.

I'm too lazy to find the interview now, but I know it's available online in several spots. Eye-opening to say the least. While I don't think that his methods are "commonplace" today, it seems like they certainly were 20 years ago. And there are definitely trainers, handlers, and breeders today that still swear by playing the game that way.

And P.S. Holland--do you EVER contribute anything meaningful to a thread?


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## JakodaCD OA

I am not unfamiliar with the breeder/kennel name, I certainly don't know the 'message' or what was behind the video. For me, from just what was shown, I don't find it amusing or educational. It was rather sad


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## Tihannah

I don't know anything about this breeder, but it does seem he is quite known and popular in the U.S., but I do know I would never feel comfortable purchasing a family companion from him. I just browsed his site a bit, and one top stud is listed as having good, stable aggression? And his offspring is boasted as having social aggression? It seems that if there is a method to breeding these type dogs, then they would only be suitable for the highly experienced handler/trainer right? I'm just curious to know if one of these dogs would be sold to someone like myself that is fairly new to the breed and not experienced with handling a dog like this?


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## holland

No I never contribute anything meaningful to a thread-any other questions about my participation you can just ask Chris


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## Samba

I too feel the new fangled tools are a real problem in the preservation of the breed. I use these tools daily in my training so I am in no way old fashioned in my training knowlede. The methods do not necessarily reveal the dog and could result in real loss to the German Shepherd in breeding choices. This is the problem of the "fake dogs" Koos mentioned.

Not so sure about the food display there, but my female has a good deal of civil aggression. She is the best family pet and is uncanny with children. Owning aggression would not make me think the dog unsuitable in family life. It certainly has not been so in my experience.


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## GSDElsa

Tihannah said:


> I don't know anything about this breeder, but it does seem he is quite known and popular in the U.S., but I do know I would never feel comfortable purchasing a family companion from him. I just browsed his site a bit, and one top stud is listed as having good, stable aggression? And his offspring is boasted as having social aggression? It seems that if there is a method to breeding these type dogs, then they would only be suitable for the highly experienced handler/trainer right? I'm just curious to know if one of these dogs would be sold to someone like myself that is fairly new to the breed and not experienced with handling a dog like this?


No idea, but I hope not. He definitely proudly produces a certain "type" of dog, and from what I've heard they aren't for the faint of heart (never seen one work in person, I'll admit...just from what I've researched on his kennel). Obviously some people do like that type, but they aren't for me. Granted, every dog is different and it's not to say that every dog that comes out of that kennel is like that.

That's why it's important to do your homework. You don't need to know a ton about pedigrees to find out that the average dog owner should probably not have one of these dogs (this is just going off of that I kinda feel the average dog owner shouldn't own a GSD to begin with--not talking about you T, just in general).


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## Castlemaid

holland said:


> No I never contribute anything meaningful to a thread-any other questions about my participation you can just ask Chris


Yeah, I noticed the passive-aggressive chip-on-the-shoulder stalking and demeaning of everything Chris posts. 

If you have a personal issue with her, please take it to PM's, a public forum is not the place for it.


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## AgileGSD

Jax08 said:


> I'm certainly no expert but that video, just the short bursts of it, didn't look like food drive to me. That looked like flat out food aggression. Food drive, to me, would be the willingness to work for food and those dogs weren't working for the food, they were ready to kill their handler for being near it. Now, what I'd like to know is if that was a learned behavior or if that is an inherited aggression.


 The most food driven dog I have ever had was Jora. She would eagerly work or search for food no matter what it was - just as enthusiastic about a cheerio as a bit of steak. She figured out how to open doors and child proof latches to get to food. Given a chance she would and did, gorge herself to the point where she looked pregnant and still wanted to eat dinner that night. She never had any resource guarding tendencies. And I have known dogs who were bad resource guarders but really only had so-so food drive when being worked. Most retrievers I have known have very high food drive and no food aggression. It doesn't appear that the two go hand in hand but both do appear to be genetically predisposed.


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## Emoore

AbbyK9 said:


> Something that really bothers me about this thread is that a lot of people are viewing this video, then come back to the forum and say, "Well, we don't know what Koos is doing or why he is doing it, but it's Koos and he knows what he's doing and has excellent dogs, so there's obviously a point to it."
> ......
> I don't like the idea that we see something that is objectionable (encouraging food aggression) and immediately excuse it because we know the person who is doing it and know that he has an excellent breeding program. If this was someone people don't know, everyone would be up in arms about it.
> 
> I am not understanding the double standard.


I'd like to address this point if I may. 
I make my living as a personal trainer. I am very good at what I do, and stay up to date on the latest science and studies and training methods. I have multiple certifications. I'm also an amateur boxer. I go to a boxing coach who has produced literally hundreds of golden gloves champions and two Olympic competitors. Some of the exercises he has me do, there is NO WAY IN HADES I would ever have a client do them. If I saw someone in the gym doing situps the way he teaches, I'd tell them they were going to seriously injure their back. Any gym member or person just trying to get into shape would be an idiot to do things the way we do at the boxing gym.

Do I correct my coach? No way! I know about kinesiology, exercise science, and the human body. He knows about producing excellent boxers. He's not trying to produce fit, healthy people who can still have healthy joints into their 80's. He's producing title-winning fighters. Who am I to tell him how to do that? He's been coaching fighters that win for literally longer than I've been alive. 


My point is that there are things that we "tone down" when producing for the general public that we bring out when we're trying to produce something elite or world-class. Tiekerhook probably aren't producing lay-by-the-fire, snuggle-on-the-couch dogs for the general public.


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## Chris Wild

Tihannah said:


> I don't know anything about this breeder, but it does seem he is quite known and popular in the U.S., but I do know I would never feel comfortable purchasing a family companion from him. I just browsed his site a bit, and one top stud is listed as having good, stable aggression? And his offspring is boasted as having social aggression? It seems that if there is a method to breeding these type dogs, then they would only be suitable for the highly experienced handler/trainer right? I'm just curious to know if one of these dogs would be sold to someone like myself that is fairly new to the breed and not experienced with handling a dog like this?


Well known? Yes. Popular? Well, amongst some small circles certainly, but overall no, not really. Respected? In some ways for his contributions in breeding (though as Lee mentioned moreso in decades past than today) and what he's accomplished.

I'm pretty sure no one looking for a pet is getting a pup from his kennel. Probably not many people looking for a dog for sport who's also a family companion either. People who like extreme dogs for sport or police/PPD work, who can handle this sort of dog and realize what it is, and what it is not. Essentially a formula one racer that is specialized in one venue but you wouldn't drive to the grocery store or picking up the kids from soccer practice. Not a GSD for everyone. Actually a GSD for very few. IMO, not a correctly balanced dog either. But there are people who like and want that sort of dog, and he does produce them pretty consistently.

As far as aggression... aggression is NOT a bad thing. It is actually something a GSD is supposed to have. But of course it must be appropriate and balanced, and the dog must have the nerve, temperament, and brain power to properly utilize it. Those who consider it a 4 letter word no matter what it's form or what other traits the dog possesses to balance it out do not understand the breed or what working temperament is. Those who want to breed aggression out of the breed, are doing a huge disservice to the breed and contributing to it becoming nothing but a pointy eared golden retriever. Really another topic altogether, but I can't let it slip by and not comment on this misconception because it is so prevalanet and so important to this breed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Emoore said:


> I'd like to address this point if I may.
> I make my living as a personal trainer. I am very good at what I do, and stay up to date on the latest science and studies and training methods. I have multiple certifications. I'm also an amateur boxer. I go to a boxing coach who has produced literally hundreds of golden gloves champions and two Olympic competitors. Some of the exercises he has me do, there is NO WAY IN HADES I would ever have a client do them. If I saw someone in the gym doing situps the way he teaches, I'd tell them they were going to seriously injure their back. Any gym member or person just trying to get into shape would be an idiot to do things the way we do at the boxing gym.
> 
> Do I correct my coach? No way! I know about kinesiology, exercise science, and the human body. He knows about producing excellent boxers. He's not trying to produce fit, healthy people who can still have healthy joints into their 80's. He's producing title-winning fighters. Who am I to tell him how to do that? He's been coaching fighters that win for literally longer than I've been alive.
> 
> 
> My point is that there are things that we "tone down" when producing for the general public that we bring out when we're trying to produce something elite or world-class. Tiekerhook probably aren't producing lay-by-the-fire, snuggle-on-the-couch dogs for the general public.


Difference being these people being trained by that particular coach presumably have a choice. 

These dogs, do not.


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## Emoore

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Difference being these people being trained by that particular coach presumably have a choice.
> .


Neither do dogs being trained for police apprehension or executive protection work. What I'm saying is, you may know what goes into training these types of dogs. I don't, but I'm willing to bet it's not all clickers and hot dog chunks. We as a society have decided there's a legitimate need for these types of dogs (as opposed to fighting dogs or bull baiting dogs) and then we want to complain about how people who are skilled at producing them go about producing them. I'm addressing Abbyk9's point about whether those of us who have no clue about this type of thing should critique somebody who obviously has built his life and reputation around doing it, as opposed to critiquing somebody in their back yard trying to "make him mean."


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## Chris Wild

This video and ensuing discussion got me thinking about a debate I've heard for years from breeders on how to feed puppies. It goes along with the topic touched on in this thread. One would think feeding puppies is a simple topic without much thought needed, but it can be quite the contrary.

There are those, particularly many old school Europeans, who advocate always feeding puppies in groups with minimal food available (often not enough to go around) in order to maximize the conflict over the food. The pups are encouraged right from weaning and throughout their time with the breeder to fight over the food. The idea is that being raised this way, always in competition over the food, will increase food drive to the point where the dog is so obsessed it will eat whatever it can, whenever it can, as fast as it can. And also start conditioning the puppy very young to fight and show aggression in order to get what he wants. It also is used as a means to help evaluate a litter, separating the strong from the weak so to speak, because the strongest most determined and dominant pups will eat well whereas the weaker, more submissive pups will go without.

Then there are those who take the opposite approach, separating pups early on, shortly after weaning, so they eat in small groups or individually. This way they learn to be comfortable and settled about eating because there is no serious competition over food. The idea being of course to prevent building an unhealthy food obsession in the pups and avoid future food aggression/resource guarding issues. Things like dominance and aggression and persistance in pups are evaluated two different ways. As far as food drive for training, if there isn't enough there that can be raised in other manners later on by the trainer with less potential negative sideffects.

In some cases this represents two very different philosophies on both what sort of behavior is desired in the dog, while in other cases the long term goals may be similar but different methods are being used later in life to achieve them. And there are breeders who shoot the middle and do a bit of both, getting some of the advantages of both techniques without taking either to the extreme enough to cause problems.

And then I'm sure there are a whole lot of breeders who never put any thought at all into how pups are fed and are completely unaware how something that would seem as simple as feeding young post-weaning pups could impact lifelong behavioral tendencies in those pups.


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## Mrs.K

wolfstraum said:


> Tiekerhook is indeed a well known kennel. It is also a very sucessful kennel according to many people. It is also a kennel that does 2-2 linebreedings and produces very small litters whose pups are sold for astronomical puppy prices. When I attended a club in Belgium (just over the border from the Netherlands - where Tiekerhook is located) I got a very different take on the reputation of this kennel than the one some people in the sport have here.............VERY different!!!!!!
> 
> Personally I would not want a dog from this kennel. the line breeding is just too close, the whole mystique is just that ..... early on, there were some wonderful dogs coming out of here that are in the foundation of many other kennels....some of my own dogs carry Estera Tiekerhook - but the current program has NOTHING to do with the program of 20-30 years ago....
> 
> Heavy compulsion training is still a staple in Europe. Dogs are kept in kennels and bred until they cannot conceive any longer. In some big show kennels, dogs live in crates with short breaks for training and potty time (if they are lucky)....we are much different here in our management and requirements.
> 
> 
> Lee


Lee, thank you for saying that. If I had said it, I'd be insulting every Schutzhund handler out there, again. 

Most people in the US have NO idea what is going on in Europe and/or Germany. 

A lot of dogs only know the way from the kennel, to the dog trailer, to the training premises and back to the kennel. Compulsion training is STILL going on. Like I said on another topic, all you have to do is to go to the clubs outside training hours and watch. Sometimes you can watch it during the training. 

A lot of breeders have their own premises and sometimes you do NOT want to know whats going on there. 

A lot of kennels are puppy mills and despite our laws are kept in very poor condition and those are the worldwide known, super kennels that you just can't question because of all their achievements. :help:


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## Jax08

Thank You Chris. I was sitting here trying to figure out the value of doing this to the dogs and your post spelled it out.


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## DharmasMom

I'm sorry. I'm certainly no expert in Schutzhund or in raising and training police dogs and PP dogs but it seems to me that to make a dog and especially a puppy, compete for and even fight for his food, is just wrong on a most basic and humane level. I certainly understand other training methods and wanting a dog to show aggression but food is one of the most basic and fundamental needs of any living thing and for any creature, especially a baby, that is dependent on a human (meaning not living in the wild) to have to fight for it or go without is so freaking wrong. I honestly don't care what kind of value it may or may not have on future training, for that need not to be met, is cruelty in my book and the person practicing is should have the same done to them.

Even animals living in the wild feed their young better than that. Humans, once again showing we can be worse than animals despite our claims to the contrary.


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## Samba

I am sure there are bad conditions in many places. I have found that to be so common in dog breeding that I would not expect it to be any different the world over. 

Different people have different views of dogs. There are approaches and philosophies across the board. My own approaches may be viewed as simply awful by many. Others find it crazy that my dogs live so well. I disagree with the most successful humane organizations in the U.S. and often wonder where that puts me on the "societal" scale.

Sure there are kennels who have turned the breeding into big business. They find ways around any limits and have huge production. The very numbers produced increase the chances of producing "good ones" that feed the reputation. I have seen this quite a bit too.


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## crackem

animals in the wild are not treated better than that. Puppies fight for food every single moment of their lives. If their isn't an open nipple, it goes hungry, a stronger pup pushes them away, they go hungry, some die, lots die in the wild. It's why they have litters, not 2 at a time.

They are forced to fight for food from the time they are born. I'd think watching that is enough to assess what you've produced at that age, but if some want to extend that to after weening, and they're good at reading what is there, then let them. 

I think people are getting way to emotional and bent out of shape over this video. It wasn't exactly meadows and roses, but it isn't exactly disturbing and disgusting either.


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## Mrs.K

Samba said:


> I am sure there are bad conditions in many places. I have found that to be so common in dog breeding that I would not expect it to be any different the world over.
> 
> Different people have different views of dogs. There are approaches and philosophies across the board. My own approaches may be viewed as simply awful by many. Others find it crazy that my dogs live so well. I disagree with the most successful humane organizations in the U.S. and often wonder where that puts me on the "societal" scale.
> 
> Sure there are kennels who have turned the breeding into big business. They find ways around any limits and have huge production. The very numbers produced increase the chances of producing "good ones" that feed the reputation. I have seen this quite a bit too.


But isn't it kind of hypocritical and double standard'ish to fight Puppy Mills in the US and than send them over to the "oh so" reputable breeders who do the same thing and charge astronomical money on their pups? Just because they are famous breeders and have the name, doesn't mean it's right. 
Somebody on here said it right. "It's puppy mills with a paint-job."

I will not name any names but if some of you knew what was really going on in some of those kennels... you'd be disgusted to have those names in your pedigrees. Yet you celebrate them like stars and bash BYB's and Puppy Mills.

There are some people that we consider BYB's out there that treat their dogs better than those big names in Germany. Just because the dogs are only OFA'd and have no titles they are BYB's but breeders that pump out puppy over puppy and keep them in the most horrible conditions are reputable because they have titled dogs and big names...


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


> ...snip... We as a society have decided there's a legitimate need for these types of dogs (as opposed to fighting dogs or bull baiting dogs) and then we want to complain about how people who are skilled at producing them go about producing them. I'm addressing *Abbyk9's point about whether those of us who have no clue about this type of thing should critique somebody who obviously has built his life and reputation around doing it,* as opposed to critiquing somebody in their back yard trying to "make him mean."


The breeder isn't and shouldn't be immune from public scrutiny, especially when it comes from other breeders or trainers, but from the general public as well. He doesn't get a free pass.

It may be a short clip and it may be out of context, but if that's the case ,that's his fault, not the fault of the people viewing it and drawing their own conclusions. There are hundreds of ways to show or explain what aggression or drive should look like, and hundreds of ways to show how to bring out those qualities, this isn't one of them.


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## crackem

you know, I don't care about BYB's or mills. Yeah I feel for the dogs in certain conditions, but we have laws for them, and if they're followed, then I don't really care. 

I do know what I want in a dog and I know where to get it. and I know how I am going to take care of MY dogs when I get them. 

If somebody wants to support a pet store bought puppy mill dog, more power to them. I don't. If a puppy mill has produced a dog that is producing dogs I want, I'm going to get one too. I highly doubt the scenerio ever even comes close to occuring, but you should be able to get my point.


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## Chris Wild

DharmasMom said:


> I'm sorry. I'm certainly no expert in Schutzhund or in raising and training police dogs and PP dogs but it seems to me that to make a dog and especially a puppy, compete for and even fight for his food, is just wrong on a most basic and humane level. I certainly understand other training methods and wanting a dog to show aggression but food is one of the most basic and fundamental needs of any living thing and for any creature, especially a baby, that is dependent on a human (meaning not living in the wild) to have to fight for it or go without is so freaking wrong. I honestly don't care what kind of value it may or may not have on future training, for that need not to be met, is cruelty in my book and the person practicing is should have the same done to them.
> 
> Even animals living in the wild feed their young better than that. Humans, once again showing we can be worse than animals despite our claims to the contrary.


I don't approve of, and certainly am not advocating, things such as are shown in the video. But I absolutely think it important to point out that there is a vast difference between the world of a pet owner and the world of the MWD or K9 handler who literally puts his life in the paws of his dog every day. Or even that of the high level sport competitor who makes a living off dogs and thus his livelihood hinges on how often he makes it to the podium. And therefore there is going to be a huge difference between not only what they require from their dogs, but the lengths to which they will go to achieve that. Certainly there are things that cross the line no matter how you look at them, particularly those with no purpose at all, but there are others that by some would be considered if not appropriate, at least a necessary evil.

While everyone is entitled to an opinion, naturally that opinion will be influenced by which world they inhabit. And in some ways these worlds are so vastly different that for one to pass broad judgment on another is akin to an Earthling telling a Martian what to eat, what to wear, what religoius beliefs to have and what social customs are appropriate and what are not.

As far as animals in the wild, while I certainly agree that any dog living in the care of humans ought to have it easier than one left to fend for itself in the wild, the idea that a wild dog would have it better and easier in terms of feeding is absurd. Sure, wild dogs feed their pups... what they can and when they can. Which amounts to no one, pups included, eating every day much less as much as they want every day. An hour spent watching Animal Planet makes that pretty clear. The life of a wild carnivore is a difficult one. If it's a good hunting day, they may eat their fill plus some. If it's an ok hunting day, they might scrounge around for enough to ease the hunger pangs a bit. And then they might not eat again for a week. A dog or pup who gets kibble thrown in his bowl, even if only every other day and he has to fight for it, is still better off because those deer and rabbits and whatever else don't ever go hopping into food bowls.


----------



## Sunstreaked

Chris Wild said:


> While everyone is entitled to an opinion, naturally that opinion will be influenced by which world they inhabit. And in some ways these worlds are so vastly different that for one to pass broad judgment on another is akin to an Earthling telling a Martian what to eat, what to wear, what religoius beliefs to have and what social customs are appropriate and what are not.



THAT was actually pretty brilliant, Chris.

Very, very different worlds. For me, Schutzhund, as well as the show ring, are "So what?" subjects. That's not my "world" and never will be. The value of that (for me) is like giving me paper money from another country and telling me to spend it in the US (without an exchange rate). However, I do understand that in that country, that money is very valuable. 

But, of course, that applies to any "specialized" area. I have a friend who participates in adult beauty pageants. Of course, I support her and I'm thrilled when she wins, but that world? No thanks. 

What I see from that video is someone producing a high value product in a specialized world. They're certainly not any dogs I would want to own - and likewise I'm sure I would never be allowed to purchase one - but I guess for some that has "value". 

For me, those dogs are reduced to the lowest denominator, so to speak, instead of the terrific combination of loving companion and protector. Some dogs don't possess both, but I always thought GSD did. The companion side of these dogs seems to be down-played, if not almost extinguished, leaving just the protection side. It just seems sad, considering how wonderful this breed is.


----------



## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> I don't approve of, and certainly am not advocating, things such as are shown in the video. But I absolutely think it important to point out that there is a vast difference between the world of a pet owner and the world of the MWD or K9 handler who literally puts his life in the paws of his dog every day. Or even that of the high level sport competitor who makes a living off dogs and thus his livelihood hinges on how often he makes it to the podium. And therefore there is going to be a huge difference between not only what they require from their dogs, but the lengths to which they will go to achieve that. Certainly there are things that cross the line no matter how you look at them, particularly those with no purpose at all, but there are others that by some would be considered if not appropriate, at least a necessary evil.
> 
> While everyone is entitled to an opinion, naturally that opinion will be influenced by which world they inhabit. And in some ways these worlds are so vastly different that for one to pass broad judgment on another is akin to an Earthling telling a Martian what to eat, what to wear, what religoius beliefs to have and what social customs are appropriate and what are not.
> 
> As far as animals in the wild, while I certainly agree that any dog living in the care of humans ought to have it easier than one left to fend for itself in the wild, the idea that a wild dog would have it better and easier in terms of feeding is absurd. Sure, wild dogs feed their pups... what they can and when they can. Which amounts to no one, pups included, eating every day much less as much as they want every day. An hour spent watching Animal Planet makes that pretty clear. The life of a wild carnivore is a difficult one. If it's a good hunting day, they may eat their fill plus some. If it's an ok hunting day, they might scrounge around for enough to ease the hunger pangs a bit. And then they might not eat again for a week. A dog or pup who gets kibble thrown in his bowl, even if only every other day and he has to fight for it, is still better off because those deer and rabbits and whatever else don't ever go hopping into food bowls.


honestly, you don't need to use these kind of methods to be successful in sport or as a K9 Handler. 

Almost half of Nicks pedigrees has dogs in it that I am very familiar with and that I actually knew personally and I know that none of them ever had to fight for their food as a puppy, yet some of those dogs are known world wide. 

It all depends on who you talk to and what their believes of training dogs are. I'd rather be an unsuccessful nobody who will never get anywhere instead of ever practicing any of these methods at all.
There is ALWAYS a different way that will bring you just as far. 

And didn't we just have a discussion in another topic that a good GSD has the genetics and doesn't need any form of compulsion because it's already there?




> While everyone is entitled to an opinion, naturally that opinion will be influenced by which world they inhabit. And in some ways these worlds are so vastly different that for one to pass broad judgment on another is akin to an Earthling telling a Martian what to eat, what to wear, what religoius beliefs to have and what social customs are appropriate and what are not.


So if you see a handler using these methods, shock collar, prong excessively and in a way that is not only boarderline cruel but CRUEL you wouldn't say anything because he's from a different planet and you have not the right to speak your mind? 

I am way beyond that already. If I see something I don't agree with and I find cruel, I will speak my mind and I don't care if that person has won the World Championship a hundred times and produced a 1000 litters from which 500 became the Bundessieger. 

Cruelty is Cruelty and if it is cruel it's wrong, no matter HOW successful somebody is and where he's from and why he's doing it.


----------



## Mary Jane

Chris Wild said:


> I don't approve of, and certainly am not advocating, things such as are shown in the video. But I absolutely think it important to point out that there is a vast difference between the world of a pet owner and the world of the MWD or K9 handler who literally puts his life in the paws of his dog every day. Or even that of the high level sport competitor who makes a living off dogs and thus his livelihood hinges on how often he makes it to the podium.


Of course this is unassailable logic, if you believe that dogs are property. As we say at an important religious festival in a few weeks, "my ancestors were slaves in Pharaoh's Egypt" and we were certainly property then. What we face is the fact pet owners like me view my single, poorly bred dog as a treasured companion-while there are markets in some places where you pick up a dog in a basket to cook for supper. It's pretty clear, to me at least, there's a tremendous culture clash in the context of viewing that video, and context is everything.

Mary Jane


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## Mrs.K

Mary Jane said:


> Of course this is unassailable logic, if you believe that dogs are property. As we say at an important religious festival in a few weeks, "my ancestors were slaves in Pharaoh's Egypt" and we were certainly property then.* What we face is the fact pet owners like me view my single, poorly bred dog as a treasured companion-while there are markets in some places where you pick up a dog in a basket to cook for supper. It's pretty clear, to me at least, there's a tremendous culture clash in the context of viewing that video*, and context is everything.
> 
> Mary Jane



Culture Clash? That guy sits in Europe. It's not like we are picking up dogs in Baskets to cook them, over there. 

We do have electricity and water and god forbid, we have cars too and we are well sophisticated with human rights and have laws to protect pets from cruelty too. 

Over there tethering is banned, so is the e-collar and some cities have even banned the use of prong collars. We also have laws in place that dictates the minimum living space for dogs and that they can't be kept in dark places. 

When it comes up to animal rights some places in Europe are way beyond the United States and have more rules and laws in place than the states will ever have. 

It's not like we Europeans don't know what is right or wrong.


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## Jax08

Mary Jane was not referring to Europe when she was comparing cultures who eat dogs. Her example was an extreme range of how different cultures view dogs to add weight to her last comment.


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## Samba

I understand. My mother and I come from an extreme range of cultures on dogs. For sure they are more akin to livestock for her. But, she would never deny them food, water, shelter, injure them or withhold needed medical care. Legislating things beyond basic care gets dicey in my book. 

I have learned not to campaign against "puppy mills", whatever that might be defined as, but rather to work against cruelty. Then, we have to be considered in how we define that also. 

At this point in time, I do want my beloved dogs defined as my property for their and my sakes.


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## tierra nuestra

Mrs.K said:


> But isn't it kind of hypocritical and double standard'ish to fight Puppy Mills in the US and than send them over to the "oh so" reputable breeders who do the same thing and charge astronomical money on their pups? Just because they are famous breeders and have the name, doesn't mean it's right.
> Somebody on here said it right. "It's puppy mills with a paint-job."
> 
> I will not name any names but if some of you knew what was really going on in some of those kennels... you'd be disgusted to have those names in your pedigrees. Yet you celebrate them like stars and bash BYB's and Puppy Mills.
> 
> There are some people that we consider BYB's out there that treat their dogs better than those big names in Germany. Just because the dogs are only OFA'd and have no titles they are BYB's but breeders that pump out puppy over puppy and keep them in the most horrible conditions are reputable because they have titled dogs and big names...


Thank you! for stepping up to the plate.What you stated may garner you alot of critisism but you have a very clear and direct way of looking at things without rose coloured glasses on.Its how I feel about the showring.And all the titles they boast but the dogs are little better than cripples in so many of the cases.But everyone sends them to "reputable breeders" such as these because they have "champion" in fronnt of the name.Point is,are they really reputable for having good healthy dogs or are they just "reputabl" because they are popular and out there?


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## Emoore

Jax08 said:


> Mary Jane was not referring to Europe when she was comparing cultures who eat dogs. Her example was an extreme range of how different cultures view dogs to add weight to her last comment.


I think she was also comparing the different "cultures" of SchH handlers/trainers, K9 trainers, pet parents, etc.


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## Mrs.K

Emoore said:


> I think she was also comparing the different "cultures" of SchH handlers/trainers, K9 trainers, pet parents, etc.


And because they are K9 or Schutzhund People it makes these methods right and okay for them to use? 

Last weekend I have watched a video with a friend of mine of K9 Training and how you train police dogs. They shaved the neck of a Malinois so he could feel the shock better... and than they filmed it and promoted it as a training video and that he's one of the best handlers in the United States. :help:

That has nothing to do with different cultures. It's cruelty, plain and simple!


----------



## Emoore

Mrs.K said:


> And because they are K9 or Schutzhund People it makes these methods right and okay for them to use?


Is it okay for the Chinese to eat dogs?


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## Mrs.K

Emoore said:


> Is it okay for the Chinese to eat dogs?


Is it okay for us to eat cows or pigs? YES IT IS but it doesn't mean that we have to treat them like garbage and torture them!

You can't compare apples with bananas. Eating dogs in China has nothing to do with the training methods at the police or with Schutzhund Handlers, especially when they celebrate themselves as stars and reputable breeder but then turn around and point fingers at puppy mills, BYB's or dog fighters.

With todays training methods there is no need for cruelty anymore! Sure at one point you have to put stress on a dog but it's one thing if the helper puts stress on a dog and another to shave his neck so he can feel the shock better.


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## GSDGunner

tierra nuestra said:


> Thank you! for stepping up to the plate.What you stated may garner you alot of critisism but you have a very clear and direct way of looking at things without rose coloured glasses on.Its how I feel about the showring.*And all the titles they boast but the dogs are little better than cripples in so many of the cases*.But everyone sends them to "reputable breeders" such as these because they have "champion" in fronnt of the name.Point is,are they really reputable for having good healthy dogs or are they just "reputabl" because they are popular and out there?


Excuse me? There isn't anything remotely "crippled" about my American Showline dog. And I resent the implication that my dog is substandard because his ancestors have "champion" in front of their names.

I had this same argument on another forum where SL's are looked down on and are not in the same almighty league as WL's. Even told my Ambred SL had no right to be bred because the dam and sire didn't the right kind of titles (Sch). 
I came to this forum because I didn't see that same biased here. I had hoped that GSD owners were united and didn't have to say that one line is better than the other. And "crippled"? C'mon, there is no need to insult!


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## Emoore

Mrs. K, I think you and I are making the same point. What I am saying is that I don't know a  thing about raising or training K9 patrol, protection, or high level Schutzhund dogs. I don't know what it takes to raise them. I don't know what it takes to train a police dog that will fight to protect its handler after it's taken 2 bullets and gotten kicked in the face. Therefore *I AM IN NO POSITION TO JUDGE*, especially based on a 3 minute youtube clip. From what I've read from you and about you on this forum, maybe you *DO* know, and are in a better position to judge. But for first time GSD owner who has taken a Petsmart obedience class to come on here and say they don't like the way Tiekerhook trains their k9s is like me walking into a rodeo and telling the bullrider he's doing it all wrong.


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## crackem

I don't use ecollars, don't have a need to. Is it cruel to use them? I don't think so and shaving a neck so you have consistent contact made rather than intermittent which is a problem for a lot of ecollar users makes perfect sense. 

Once contact is made and they precieve the stim, it's going to be the same hair or no hair, having less hair just ensures consistency, which I think is what you'd want.

Is not feeding your dog before you train cruel? I'm met more than a few that would say yes. and i'm certainly glad I live in a country where they can't tell me how to train my dog, at least not yet.

If you use a prong and have a happy well adjusted dog, I don't care. if you use an ecollar and have a balanced and trained dog, I don't care, if you use a gentle leader and your dog looks miserable, I care.

There are 10,000 ways to rome, why be so upset some people chose to take a different route? They aren't doing it to your dog, are they? They aren't making them do it like they do are they?

i'm a pet owner and schutzhund trainer, and there is a vast difference in what is expected and what is trained. To deny it is sticking your head in the sand. 

Poking a dog while it eats to get a reaction is hardly cruelty. I think a bit dumb, but cruel? Really? Give people permission to call that "cruel" and it wont' be long till the masses that think using kennels and not feeding before training have the power you've given them to tell YOU exactly how to do things.

Seriously, Cruel is reserved for beatings that result in bodily injury for fun, cruel is withholding food to the point of starving, cruel is forcing to live in filth so sores and disease sets in, cruel is days with nothing but **** filled water bowls, cruel is torture for fun.

people need to just mind their own business on everything else.


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> Is it okay for us to eat cows or pigs? YES IT IS but it doesn't mean that we have to treat them like garbage and torture them!
> 
> You can't compare apples with bananas. Eating dogs in China has nothing to do with the training methods at the police or with Schutzhund Handlers, especially when they celebrate themselves as stars and reputable breeder but then turn around and point fingers at puppy mills, BYB's or dog fighters.
> 
> With todays training methods there is no need for cruelty anymore! Sure at one point you have to put stress on a dog but it's one thing if the helper puts stress on a dog and another to shave his neck so he can feel the shock better.


And you don't see how harassing a dog over food for 20 seconds is the same "apples and bananas" from most of the stuff you are talking about, such as all the electric collar examples you keep posting? You are doing the exact same thing by apparently lumping everything you don't like into the same category and painting it with the broad brush labeled "cruelty".

Nevermind the question of who defines "cruelty". As I said in an earlier post, which you quoted most of but ignored this statement, certainly there are certain things that cross the line no matter how you look at it. But that is not the case for most things. 

There are people who live on the planet that any form of physical correction, or even so much as telling your dog "no", is considered cruel. That dogs should never experience any stress or discomfort, should never be made to do anything they don't want to do, their lives should be all sunshine and rainbows... and who would force that ideology on people on a completely different planet with completely different goals, and if they refused to change their ways they are to be demonized. And anyone who is associated with them, or dares to stand up for their rights to do as they need to do to accomplish their goals, short of crossing the universal line altogether, is to be demonized as well.


----------



## DharmasMom

Chris Wild said:


> I don't approve of, and certainly am not advocating, things such as are shown in the video. But I absolutely think it important to point out that there is a vast difference between the world of a pet owner and the world of the MWD or K9 handler who literally puts his life in the paws of his dog every day. Or even that of the high level sport competitor who makes a living off dogs and thus his livelihood hinges on how often he makes it to the podium. And therefore there is going to be a huge difference between not only what they require from their dogs, but the lengths to which they will go to achieve that. Certainly there are things that cross the line no matter how you look at them, particularly those with no purpose at all, but there are others that by some would be considered if not appropriate, at least a necessary evil.
> 
> While everyone is entitled to an opinion, naturally that opinion will be influenced by which world they inhabit. And in some ways these worlds are so vastly different that for one to pass broad judgment on another is akin to an Earthling telling a Martian what to eat, what to wear, what religoius beliefs to have and what social customs are appropriate and what are not.
> 
> As far as animals in the wild, while I certainly agree that any dog living in the care of humans ought to have it easier than one left to fend for itself in the wild, the idea that a wild dog would have it better and easier in terms of feeding is absurd. Sure, wild dogs feed their pups... what they can and when they can. Which amounts to no one, pups included, eating every day much less as much as they want every day. An hour spent watching Animal Planet makes that pretty clear. The life of a wild carnivore is a difficult one. If it's a good hunting day, they may eat their fill plus some. If it's an ok hunting day, they might scrounge around for enough to ease the hunger pangs a bit. And then they might not eat again for a week. A dog or pup who gets kibble thrown in his bowl, even if only every other day and he has to fight for it, is still better off because those deer and rabbits and whatever else don't ever go hopping into food bowls.




I am well aware of the differences of doing schutzhund for sport and working k9s. I took several trips this summer to a local military base this past summer with Dharma when I was looking to adopt a retiring MWD. I pulled out when the handler thought it was okay to choke out Dharma because he didn't feel she was listening to him. While I don't and NEVER would train my dogs this way I understand the need for tactics like that for dogs in the working world where their partner's life depends on those paws. 

I do NOT agree with nor understand why the bare basics of life like food are used against the dog this way. And especially not against a puppy. A puppy should not have to fight for his food. And if he does not win that fight he certainly should not have to go with out. 

I honestly don't care how great a trainer this guy is (or anyone else who practices methods like this) or how many titles he has received or how many fantastic dog he has produced. And for people to say, well, it's okay, look how many trophies and ribbons are on his wally- that just boggles my mind. That is the same thing has saying if a puppy mill were producing dogs that could get titles in schutzhund or win Best In Show at Westminster than what they are doing is okay. 

In my book the ends do not always justify the means.


----------



## Chris Wild

Excellent post, crackem.


----------



## Chris Wild

DharmasMom said:


> I do NOT agree with nor understand why the bare basics of life like food are used against the dog this way.


So is the very common "motivational" method of making a dog earn its food through training, making sure he's hungry before training even if that means skipping a meal here or there, and if he doesn't work well enough to eat his food in training he doesn't get his full ration that day.... tactics that many, many self proclaimed purely positive, never needed any sort of correction for any dog ever, trainers advocate... really all that different?

Food is the most basic motivator in dogs, and thus one of the most valuable in training. Is building food drive by witholding food really and truely, from the dog's perspective, much different or kinder than building food drive by pestering him when he eats, or does it just LOOK less cruel?


----------



## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> And you don't see how harassing a dog over food for 20 seconds is the same "apples and bananas" from most of the stuff you are talking about, such as all the electric collar examples you keep posting? You are doing the exact same thing by apparently lumping everything you don't like into the same category and painting it with the broad brush labeled "cruelty".
> 
> Nevermind the question of who defines "cruelty". As I said in an earlier post, which you quoted most of but ignored this statement, certainly there are certain things that cross the line no matter how you look at it. But that is not the case for most things.
> 
> There are people who live on the planet that any form of physical correction, or even so much as telling your dog "no", is considered cruel. That dogs should never experience any stress or discomfort, should never be made to do anything they don't want to do, their lives should be all sunshine and rainbows... and who would force that ideology on people on a completely different planet with completely different goals, and if they refused to change their ways they are to be demonized. And anyone who is associated with them, or dares to stand up for their rights to do as they need to do to accomplish their goals, short of crossing the universal line altogether, is to be demonized as well.


Maybe it is that I come from a country where the e-collar is actually illegal that I am opposed to it. I would not EVER touch an e-collar because I do not know how to use it. An e-collar should be for people who actually know what they are doing yet, anyone can buy it over here. 

I hate e-collars. I can't stand when it's used and the dog yelps in pain, yet they hit the button more and more and more but say it's just like a clicker and gives you consistency. Same goes with the prong. I find it ridiculous to compare a prong to the clicker. The clicker does not inflict pain. A prong and an e-collar does. 

Yes, it is a 3 minute video but we all know that this is NOT food drive. 
And I wasn't talking about his training methods, I was talking about methods in general, especially when you brought up that quite a few breeder use the method to give little to no food to puppies to make them fight. That is cruel in my book because there is no need to do it and if somebody goes that route to override the lack of food drive... well maybe he's got the wrong dog and the dog shouldn't be out there doing what he's doing if you have to use food aggression to make him do it because afterall it makes the dog uncomfortable about food, doesn't it? 
And weren't you one of a couple of members on here who said that a dog who is umcomfortable shouldn't do what he's doing? 


And there we are... DOUBLE STANDARD IN BIG FAT LETTERS!


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## Josie/Zeus

crackem said:


> I don't use ecollars, don't have a need to. Is it cruel to use them? I don't think so and shaving a neck so you have consistent contact made rather than intermittent which is a problem for a lot of ecollar users makes perfect sense.
> 
> Once contact is made and they precieve the stim, it's going to be the same hair or no hair, having less hair just ensures consistency, which I think is what you'd want.
> 
> Is not feeding your dog before you train cruel? I'm met more than a few that would say yes. and i'm certainly glad I live in a country where they can't tell me how to train my dog, at least not yet.
> 
> If you use a prong and have a happy well adjusted dog, I don't care. if you use an ecollar and have a balanced and trained dog, I don't care, if you use a gentle leader and your dog looks miserable, I care.
> 
> There are 10,000 ways to rome, why be so upset some people chose to take a different route? They aren't doing it to your dog, are they? They aren't making them do it like they do are they?
> 
> i'm a pet owner and schutzhund trainer, and there is a vast difference in what is expected and what is trained. To deny it is sticking your head in the sand.
> 
> Poking a dog while it eats to get a reaction is hardly cruelty. I think a bit dumb, but cruel? Really? Give people permission to call that "cruel" and it wont' be long till the masses that think using kennels and not feeding before training have the power you've given them to tell YOU exactly how to do things.
> 
> Seriously, Cruel is reserved for beatings that result in bodily injury for fun, cruel is withholding food to the point of starving, cruel is forcing to live in filth so sores and disease sets in, cruel is days with nothing but **** filled water bowls, cruel is torture for fun.
> 
> people need to just mind their own business on everything else.


I could not agree more! Excellent post.


----------



## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> The clicker does not inflict pain. A prong and an e-collar does.
> .....


if you are inflicting PAIN with either an e-collar or a prong then YOU are doing something wrong.


----------



## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> So is the very common "motivational" method of making a dog earn its food through training, making sure he's hungry before training even if that means skipping a meal here or there, *and if he doesn't work well enough to eat his food in training he doesn't get his full ration that day*.... tactics that many, many self proclaimed purely positive, never needed any sort of correction for any dog ever, trainers advocate... really all that different?
> 
> Food is the most basic motivator in dogs, and thus one of the most valuable in training. Is building food drive by witholding food really and truely, from the dog's perspective, much different or kinder than building food drive by pestering him when he eats, or does it just LOOK less cruel?


I don't think that any of us on here, who train the dog before he gets his food would withhold the full ration for the rest of the day just because it didn't work out. 

I believe there is a big difference between training a dog before he gets his meal and withholding food because the dog didn't do his job (which in 90% of the cases is the handlers fault.)

Using food drive and building food aggression to override the lack of food drive (like you guys talked about earlier is two different things.)

And honestly, a good, food driven dog can be trained whether or not he was fed.


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## holland

It is a 37 second video and a 12 page thread


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## GSDElsa

I'm honestly confused here. One post talks about the torture happening to animals in germany via being shocked and the next says e-collars are illegal? You can't say how horrible the methods in europe are and the next post use them as the shining example of what the us should become.

Any tool in the box can be misused. Even the clicker and a flat collar. Used correctly a prong and ecollar are hardly torture devices or cruel. I've had both used on my arm in the same way I wouldon a dog so I know what I'm talking about.


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## holland

If you have a problem with my post delete them-your the moderator after all -figure it out


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## DharmasMom

Chris Wild said:


> So is the very common "motivational" method of making a dog earn its food through training, making sure he's hungry before training even if that means skipping a meal here or there, and if he doesn't work well enough to eat his food in training he doesn't get his full ration that day.... tactics that many, many self proclaimed purely positive, never needed any sort of correction for any dog ever, trainers advocate... really all that different?
> 
> Food is the most basic motivator in dogs, and thus one of the most valuable in training. Is building food drive by witholding food really and truely, from the dog's perspective, much different or kinder than building food drive by pestering him when he eats, or does it just LOOK less cruel?



I'm not talking about food motivation and I think you know that. I am talking about giving puppies too little food and then making them fight over it and then letting the ones that lose go without. How on EARTH is that beneficial?? That is not building drive that is building outright aggression and in my eyes unnecessarily cruel. 

And you didn't answer my question if a puppy mill, with the worse conditions, was producing fantastic dogs, would you defend their practices?? Because from what Mrs K is saying that is what is happening in Germany. So does the end always justify the means?


----------



## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> Maybe it is that I come from a country where the e-collar is actually illegal that I am opposed to it. I would not EVER touch an e-collar because I do not know how to use it. An e-collar should be for people who actually know what they are doing yet, anyone can buy it over here.
> 
> I hate e-collars. !


And again, you are entitled to your opinion. And I absolutely agree that if you do not feel comfortable or educated enough to use a tool, any tool properly, then the best choice is to not use it. I wish more people would make that responsible choice of either learn how to use it right, or don't use it at all.

But grabbing that broad brush of painting everyone who uses one, and every one who will speak up to defend the rights of others to use them, as "cruel" because you do not feel comfortable using one yourself is wrong.





Mrs.K said:


> Same goes with the prong. I find it ridiculous to compare a prong to the clicker. The clicker does not inflict pain. A prong and an e-collar does. !


A prong and e-collar CAN. Not automatically does. They can be used for many things including drive building and promotion, not correction. It depends on the person on the other end of the leash or transmitter.

I often wonder if advocates of purely positive methods like total free shaping and pure clicker training are aware of how much *mental* stress they are inflicting in their dogs at times due to the frustration and learned helplessness that can come from repeated deprivation or blocking of achieving drive satisfaction because the dog wasn't lucky enough to hit on the desired behavior soon enough. But of course that can't be cruel because it doesn't look that way on video.

And then there's the whole topic of reliability and safety, and what happens the day the dog decides to chase a squirrel across the expressway, and the only training the handler has ever done, or tools he's ever used, or resources he has available is a clicker in one hand and hot dogs in the other.




Mrs.K said:


> Yes, it is a 3 minute video but we all know that this is NOT food drive.


What video are you watching? I see 38 seconds, not 3 minutes, and 2 different dogs shown in that 38 seconds.

Anyway.... 




Mrs.K said:


> And weren't you one of a couple of members on here who said that a dog who is umcomfortable shouldn't do what he's doing?
> 
> And there we are... DOUBLE STANDARD IN BIG FAT LETTERS!


Not a double standard at all. In equating the different threads you're not seeing the difference between a few isolated incidents of stress and pressure that must happen within what is overwhelmingly an enjoyable experience, and the whole experience itself from almost every angle lacking enjoyment and involving stress and pressure. Huge, huge difference.

Also as I've pointed out more than once, I don't agree with or advocate the methods being discussed. I don't starve my dogs, pester them when they eat, and shortly after weaning my puppies have their own individual food bowls and individual crates where they can enjoy eating all they want in peace and quiet.

But I will defend the rights of others to do things differently, just as I'll defend the rights of people to have opinions that I strongly disagree with and find to be rooted in anything but actual fact and experience.. up to the point where those opinions begin infringing on the rights of others.


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## AbbyK9

> I pulled out when the handler thought it was okay to choke out Dharma because he didn't feel she was listening to him. While I don't and NEVER would train my dogs this way I understand the need for tactics like that for dogs in the working world where their partner's life depends on those paws.


I believe that I may have said this back when you posted about this handler choking your Dharma, but just because some handlers do this to control their dogs does not mean that it's what the majority of handlers do or that there are not better ways to accomplish things.

There are plenty of handlers who would rather choke their dog off a bite than work on a reliable verbal out, but the other kind are out there and more should be training that way. I don't think that you have complete and proper control of a dog if you can NOT call them to out or down, especially if that dog is a police or military K-9.

When we went to the Vermont Iron Dog last year I was very pleasantly surprised to see that the police teams that were there put great emphasis on a good verbal out and good obedience. I didn't see any handlers choke their dogs - a lot of them only had flat collars on the dogs to begin with. The dog and handler that took overall first and fastest building search and fastest narcotics search had some of the best obedience I've seen - including a very solid out and recall. No choking required. IMHO that should be the standard for departments (civilian and military) to strive for.

But that's just my opinion.


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## Chris Wild

DharmasMom said:


> And you didn't answer my question if a puppy mill, with the worse conditions, was producing fantastic dogs, would you defend their practices?? Because from what Mrs K is saying that is what is happening in Germany. So does the end always justify the means?


I'm not in the least defending this practice. I've said more than once that I do not care for this breeder's practices (or dogs) in any way. And no the end doesn't always justify the means. Though I also think there is a whole lot of broad brush painting of how "everyone" must be doing this.

What I am defending is the right of the person to have a practice that others dislike or disagree with and not have the standards and preferences of others, particularly others from completely different worlds, be forced on him. Big difference that it seems most people aren't getting though. <sigh>


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## Mrs.K

DharmasMom said:


> I'm not talking about food motivation and I think you know that. I am talking about giving puppies too little food and then making them fight over it and then letting the ones that lose go without. How on EARTH is that beneficial?? That is not building drive that is building outright aggression and in my eyes unnecessarily cruel.
> 
> And you didn't answer my question if a puppy mill, with the worse conditions, was producing fantastic dogs, would you defend their practices?? *Because from what Mrs K is saying that is what is happening in Germany. So does the end always justify the means?*


It does happen, and there is one well known breeder who most certainly qualifies as a puppy mill and who keeps his dogs out in the woods under conditions that are more than unbelievably disgusting. 

One of his foster people (who regularly raised puppies for him) actually exposed the conditions and yet he's still celebrated by many and he celebrates himself. It's disgusting to follow and watch. 

And to call some of the breeder "hobbybreeders" (because you are not supposed to breed for profit and against regulations to deal with dogs and breed dogs for profit) is a joke. 

Some of the dogs are bred so many times that they actually earned over 400 000 Euros just by being bred. If they have 3 or 4 litters every couple of months and sell those pups for 1500 Euros... it's nothing but a puppy mill. They make very big money. Money you and I can only dream about. 
And than they call it hobby...


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> I'm not in the least defending this practice. I've said more than once that I do not care for this breeder's practices (or dogs) in any way. And no the end doesn't always justify the means. Though I also think there is a whole lot of broad brush painting of how "everyone" must be doing this.
> 
> What I am defending is the right of the person to have a practice that others dislike or disagree with and not have the standards and preferences of others, particularly others from completely different worlds, be forced on him. Big difference that it seems most people aren't getting though. <sigh>


We are getting it. The question is, where does the training end and where begins the cruelty and if it is cruelty is it right to use it just because it's for Schutzhund and K9?


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## Samba

I guess people could have taped me with my food aggressive dog and then said a lot of stuff. Goodness, it is indeed a tempest in a teapot both on here and at the bowl.

An acquaintance of mine is getting a Tiekerhook puppy soon. I now can't wait to meet it, perchance to even feed it!

If a person is using food as a motivator and the dog has low food drive. How do you get to the motivation in the dog? What if it does not perform tricks for a toy very well? Rather than do some inhumane practice of denying food or frustrating a dog with a toy it is not interested in.... I think myself and a prong collar are quite nice tools and evidently so does my dog. The dog never looks happier or brighter in obedience than at those times. Cruel though they may be? Don't tell my dog, he is oblivious to his sad state of affairs. Course if we keep insisting that the dogs be ones that work super for clicker and toys then I may soon be unable to have another one like my wonder dog!


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## crisp

People who don't let their dogs sleep on the couch are cruel


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> We are getting it. The question is, where does the training end and where begins the cruelty and if it is cruelty is it right to use it just because it's for Schutzhund and K9?


That is my point. Everyone will have a different opinion on that clearly. There are rare cases that cross the line, and I think most would recognize and agree on what those are. Otherwise I'd like to see a whole lot less of a few trying to legislate the actions of others, and instead mind their own house and live and let live. If this trend of point fingers, painting everyone with the same brush, and using personal opinion to dictate the actions of others, particularly when those opinions are based in emotion and not knowledge or experience, continues then before long we're going to see every training collar, every sport, and every working breed on someone's banned list somewhere, and eventually everywhere.


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## Chris Wild

crisp said:


> People who don't let their dogs sleep on the couch are cruel


ROTFL... are dogs who hog the whole bed so their owners are forced to sleep in tiny contorted balls in one corner equally cruel?


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> That is my point. Everyone will have a different opinion on that clearly. There are rare cases that cross the line, and I think most would recognize and agree on what those are. Otherwise I'd like to see a whole lot less of a few trying to legislate the actions of others, and instead mind their own house and live and let live. If this trend of point fingers, painting everyone with the same brush, and using personal opinion to dictate the actions of others, particularly when those opinions are based in emotion and not knowledge or experience, continues then before long we're going to see every training collar, every sport, and every working breed on someone's banned list somewhere, and eventually everywhere.


What would you consider "crossing the line"? 
How much is okay? Even if we all have a different opinion about it, how much is okay to get a dog to do what you want him to do and if we have to use these kind of methods in the first place... is it because of training methods or because the dog is not fit for the job?


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## Vandal

I saw this video some time ago. It is as idiotic now as it was then. Yes, he has been around for years but I personally, have never seen or worked a Tiekerhook dog that I thought was a good one. Nervy and nasty is what comes to mind when I hear that kennel name. 
I agree with Christine, he seems to be demonstrating how much food drive the dogs have. Of course, it is food drive you can see that but it is combined with an idiot pestering the dogs. I will question what he is doing and I don't give a rats arsh how long he has been an idiot.

BTW, if you are one who thinks the only humane way to train is with treats, these dogs might be right up your alley.


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## CassandGunnar

Mrs.K said:


> We are getting it. The question is, where does the training end and where begins the cruelty and if it is cruelty is it right to use it just because it's for Schutzhund and K9?


IMHO, that's an age old question, and one not easily answered. As has been pointed out several times, what's cruel to some, isn't cruel to others (within reason). Crackem made a good point about there being rules/regulations/laws that define cruelty and outside of that, it's up to the handler/trainer/breeder to make that call.
I had police K9's and, according to some other handlers, my ideas are too "soft" at times. I have never used an e-collar on a dog and have have rarely used a prong collar. I don't disagree with the use of either, if done properly. I guess I was fortunate to have "good dogs" in my career because I never saw the need to use a prong or e-collar. I tried to put in the extra time/work to get the results I wanted. I had one dog that would really whine and bark whenever he heard the motors on my overhead lights. He knew that it was time to go to work and that something good was going to happen for him. I spent a lot of time working with that dog to get him better about that issue. I suppose I could have used a bark collar, but I chose not to go that way.
There are always going to be people who come "right up to the line" in regard to harsh or cruel training.
I don't think there is an easy answer to your question. Personally, I prefer a softer approach to training and prefer to build a more confident dog.

I received my dogs and training from the St. Paul (MN) PD and they are fairly well known for producing excellent K9's.


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## Samba

Well, if someone can not determine that they don't have the dog for the endeavor that is hardly reason to condemn activities or point at certain training venues. The major malfunction is not in the availability of certain tools. 

A great deal of cruelty I see comes from people who deem their dog not suitable in being their pet. The things that are done in the name of being a pet are very horrible. It is outrageous this pet owning business. Actually, gives me a shudder now that I think about the really cruel things done and how widespread it is.

LOL @ Anne! Those dogs are actually a treat trainers dream. I had one act like that about his bowl. Crap, he didn't even need anyone around him to carry on like that either!! He would do it in the basement all by himself with just his food and his darn kibble that moved when he took a bite. He would sell his soul for one dry piece of kibble and was very easy to train with a clicker.


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## Vandal

> A great deal of cruelty I see comes from people who deem their dog not suitable in being their pet. The things that are done in the name of being a pet are very horrible. It is outrageous this pet owning business. Actually, gives me a shudder now that I think about the really cruel things done and how widespread it is.


Ain't that the truth.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> I saw this video some time ago. It is as idiotic now as it was then. Yes, he has been around for years but I personally, have never seen or worked a Tiekerhook dog that I thought was a good one. Nervy and nasty is what comes to mind when I hear that kennel name.
> I agree with Christine, he seems to be demonstrating how much food drive the dogs have. Of course, it is food drive you can see that but it is combined with an idiot pestering the dogs. I will question what he is doing and I don't give a rats arsh how long he has been an idiot.
> 
> BTW, if you are one who thinks the only humane way to train is with treats, these dogs might be right up your alley.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

---------------------------------------------

As for prong and e-collar: I am not purely against e-collars or prong as long as it's in the right hands. While I hate the e-collar myself I know of how powerful of a tool it can be if it is used the right way. 

Personally, I wouldn't touch it.


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## Chris Wild

Samba said:


> I had one act like that about his bowl. Crap, he didn't even need anyone around him to carry on like that either!! He would do it in the basement all by himself with just his food and his darn kibble that moved when he took a bite. He would sell his soul for one dry piece of kibble and was very easy to train with a clicker.


Most of mine do as well. Not the aggression, but the attacking of the bowl like it's going to jump up and run away. We tend to feed evernone in their in crates so there isn't any chance of someone being pestered (and so we don't have food bowls being chased aroudn the kitchen) and dinner time usually brings the sounds of dogs and bowls slamming around in their crates because of the overzealous eating behavior. And yes indeed, that "sell the soul for a piece of kibble" mentality sure makes food training easy.


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## Vandal

I am not sure I would call what he is doing cruelty, so, you may want to edit those thumbs up icons out of that post Mrs K. I think it is simply stupid and I know plenty of stupid people who are not cruel. This guy seems to have some rather strange ideas. He is not alone in that regard but just pestering the dogs during their meal, is not in itself cruel. I think lots of people do not understand how much food drive some dogs can have. Since I have a boarding kennel, I can tell you that is something that is VERY misunderstood. I say that because so many dogs are obese but their owners claim they are hungry. I try to tell them that they are killing their dogs with kindness but very few get it. The world now believes that food is love, even though huge numbers of people and dogs are dying because of too much of it.

Samba laughed at what I said because there is truth in it. The new methods can indeed be unfair to the dogs and people will try to meet the desire to train a certain way with dogs who fit the method. That is a big problem that I have already talked too much about.


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> Most of mine do as well. Not the aggression, but the attacking of the bowl like it's going to jump up and run away. We tend to feed evernone in their in crates so there isn't any chance of someone being pestered (and so we don't have food bowls being chased aroudn the kitchen) and dinner time usually brings the sounds of dogs and bowls slamming around in their crates because of the overzealous eating behavior. And yes indeed, that "sell the soul for a piece of kibble" mentality sure makes food training easy.



Mine are all fed in the kitchen. They have to sit and wait until it's their turn. Judge and Yukon are both highly food driven. Yukon would eat so fast that he choked himself on food, so I put water over his food which slows him down. 

Indra is not as food driven as the other two and a slow eater while Yukon and Judge are literally sucking the food up just like a vacuum cleaner and they'd give their soul for kibble. 
They eat anything and everything I give them. I have no problems feeding them medication (if I have to), as long as it's coming out of my hand it's got to be something good, right?


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## crisp

Vandal said:


> The world now believes that food is loveQUOTE]
> You've met my mother?


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## Vandal

My mother used to put on food fashion shows. That is what I would call them. She would come back from the store and come out of the kitchen holding something she bought . Then back in to get something else to show me. She knew she had control when she did that.


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## Whiteshepherds

Vandal said:


> My mother used to put on food fashion shows. That is what I would call them. She would come back from the store and come out of the kitchen holding something she bought . Then back in to get something else to show me. She knew she had control when she did that.


LOL, oh fudge I do the same thing but never thought of it that way until now! I wonder what forum my kids are on ratting me out?


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## Vandal

Just don't put your hand in their plate when they are eating and you should be ok.


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## Samba

:rofl: there oughta be a law....


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> ROTFL... are dogs who hog the whole bed so their owners are forced to sleep in tiny contorted balls in one corner equally cruel?


 
Sounds like a true case of "Cruelty to humans!".


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## Aalshab

So in the 4 pages on this topic that I read most people asked for a possible reason to explain the video but none were given, here's my take...

I do believe that the purpose of the video is quite simply, and as the title states, to show the food drive that koos' line possesses; despite the constant stress the dogs are put under they continue to eat.... Now think about it. How many if our dogs would not take a treat when at the vets? How about refusing a treat when out of the house, especially when still a puppy? 

There are two ways to think about it, either the dog has extremely bad nerves or that he does not have sufficient food drive for the food to be of high enough value to alleviate the stress of being in a new place/ somewhere unpleasant...

When u think about it this way you can see what koos is trying to prove, his dogs have enough food drive to overcome the extreme stress they are out under in the video and still continue to eat, whether you agree with the method is a completely different story...

Then again I could be way off...


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## LouCastle

I don't consider that this trainer is demonstrating "food drive." I think he's demonstrating "resource guarding" or "food aggressiveness." I define "food drive" as how driven the dog is to work for food, not how hard he'll defend his food bowl. But obviously this trainer has a different definition. I think that what he's doing is dangerous and dumb, particularly since it's put up without any explanation. I know his kennels have produced lots of high scoring dogs, but I doubt that this has anything to do with it. 



Mrs.K said:


> Over there [Germany] tethering is banned, so is the e-collar


It's a bit of a wander off−topic and I apologize for that, but one shouldn't be posting MISinformation. I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about the Ecollar being "banned" in Germany, and have said so before. The SV (the ruling body of SchH there) has said that it can't be used, but that does not have the force of law. But if you can post the law that supports your position, (and if it exists, surely it is on line) then I'll be happy to change my mind.


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## LouCastle

Mrs.K said:


> Last weekend I have watched a video with a friend of mine of K9 Training and how you train police dogs. * They shaved the neck of a Malinois so he could feel the shock better... * and than they filmed it and promoted it as a training video and that he's one of the best handlers in the United States.
> 
> That has nothing to do with different cultures. It's cruelty, plain and simple! [Emphasis Added]


It's _"cruelty, plain and simple"_ to shave a dog's neck? Since when? It may be unsightly, even ugly, but cruel? Sorry, this is hardly _"cruelty."_ 

BTW I've never needed to shave a dog's neck to get good contact with the Ecollar. ESPECIALLY a Mal. They only need "slightly longer than normal" contact points.


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## LouCastle

Mrs.K said:


> With todays training methods there is no need for cruelty anymore! Sure at one point you have to put stress on a dog but it's * one thing if the helper puts stress on a dog and another to shave his neck so he can feel the shock better. * [Emphasis Added]


Still not _"cruelty."_ Either a dog feels the stim or he does not. There's no in between. Some people will shave the neck so that the stim is consistently applied, not so the dog will _"feel it better."_ This is very rarely done. When it is, it's with dogs with very dense coats because sometimes the contact points will not penetrate the fur and therefore contact is inconsistent or nonexistent.


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## LouCastle

DharmasMom said:


> I am well aware of the differences of doing schutzhund for sport and working k9s. I took several trips this summer to a local military base this past summer with Dharma when I was looking to adopt a retiring MWD. * I pulled out when the handler thought it was okay to choke out Dharma because he didn't feel she was listening to him. * While I don't and NEVER would train my dogs this way * I understand the need for tactics like that for dogs in the working world where their partner's life depends on those paws. * [Emphasis Added]


I've been training dogs for police work for nearly 35 years, _"where their partner's life depends on those paws."_ I've NEVER felt it necessary to _"choke out [any dog] because he wasn't listening [to the handler]."_ Choking out a dog is not a "training method," it's a self defense technique.


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## LouCastle

Mrs.K said:


> Maybe it is that I come from a country where the e-collar is actually illegal


I believe that this is ANOTHER reference to Ecollars being _"illegal"_ in Germany. I still think that you're wrong and will until you respond to my request to post a link citing the law there that supports it. Having a sport dog organization ban it, does not carry the force of law. That comes ONLY from the government. 



Mrs.K said:


> that I am opposed to it. I would not EVER touch an e-collar because I do not know how to use it. An e-collar should be for people who actually know what they are doing yet, anyone can buy it over here.


Ecollars are easy to learn to use. My website gives instructions and it's free. 



Mrs.K said:


> I hate e-collars. I can't stand when it's used and the dog yelps in pain,


If this is your only experience of Ecollars, then your experience is very limited. It's not necessary that a dog experience pain when an Ecollar is used. I've done seminars in front of hundreds of people, many of them very experienced trainers, and been asked many times (after I've been working a dog for about 10 minutes), "When are you going to start using the Ecollar." Even people who are watching closely can't tell when the button is being pressed. Nowadays I use a device that makes a loud noise when I press the button so that people can tell. They CAN NOT tell by watching the dogs, and there's certainly no _"yelp[ing] in pain."_ 



Mrs.K said:


> The clicker does not inflict pain. A prong and an e-collar does.


Minor discomfort is all that's necessary with either tool. 



Mrs.K said:


> Yes, it is a 3 minute video but we all know that this is NOT food drive.


I don't think it is, but it's obvious that the trainer is not using the same definition of _"food drive"_ as we are. There's no rule or law that requires him to either.


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## LouCastle

Mrs.K said:


> I don't think that any of us on here, who train the dog before he gets his food would withhold the full ration for the rest of the day just because it didn't work out.


I've spoken to a trainer who said that she'd withhold food from a dog for FOUR DAYS, it if took that long for the dog to become interested in it. I think THAT might be an example of "cruelty." 




Mrs.K said:


> And honestly, a good, food driven dog can be trained whether or not he was fed.


It depends on the dog. Many, if they are sated, won't be interested.


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## LouCastle

AbbyK9 said:


> There are plenty of handlers who would rather choke their dog off a bite than work on a reliable verbal out, but the other kind are out there and more should be training that way. I don't think that you have complete and proper control of a dog if you can NOT call them to out or down, especially if that dog is a police or military K-9.
> 
> When we went to the Vermont Iron Dog last year I was very pleasantly surprised to see that the police teams that were there put great emphasis on a good verbal out and good obedience. I didn't see any handlers choke their dogs - a lot of them only had flat collars on the dogs to begin with. The dog and handler that took overall first and fastest building search and fastest narcotics search had some of the best obedience I've seen - including a very solid out and recall. No choking required. IMHO that should be the standard for departments (civilian and military) to strive for.
> 
> But that's just my opinion.


* HALLELUJAH!!! * Can I get an amen? I wish this was the case everywhere. But it's not. Quite a few vendors are teaching the choke−off as THE ONLY way to get the dog off a bite. Truth be told, they're usually not capable of getting the dogs to out reliably with a verbal command.


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## LouCastle

Mrs.K said:


> While I hate the e-collar myself I know of how powerful of a tool it can be if it is used the right way.


I've never understood the thought process that allows people to _"hate"_ inanimate objects.


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## David Taggart

I hear about some "food instinct" for the first time, but I can guess what was meant by that. The behavioral pattern this sable GSD reveals in video is typical to all dogs, and its matrix becomes apparent in the very first minutes the puppy was born. The first three puppies, normally, get not only all available foremilk, but they are fully suckled even before their siblings were born. That is why some dogs could be motivated by treats as a food, and others are not. In some, from the litter of many, early age hunger stalks to the rest of their lives. If you watch the litter feeding, digging their little noses into their mommy's furry belly, you will see, that the stronger push away the weaker. Experienced breeder rearranges the litter during feeding, so, the smaller puppies may get to the milk. But, I want to point here the starting moment when some of puppies become potential leaders and will always eat the first, while the rest of their brothers and sisters would be destined to eat the last. When the pack stays with the kill, alphas always eat the first. They get to the intestings, to the most nutritious, to the liver, but somebody of the weaker would have hooves and horns for dinner. In order to get to mother's tit the pup *has to be agressive*, in order to stay fit the weaker dog has to shoo some of his brothers away from the remains of the kill. Getting to the food first - is a previledge. To shoo others away - is the previlage of the stronger - that is what drives him, that is what this doggy in video thinks. Mentioned born the first two-three puppies do not grow up being agressive over food, they got used to be fed up, it's their "younger" sisters and brothers might be. Those would compete over food as the way to fight for a higher position in hierarchy and previledge to eat the better bits.
So, what this man in video is doing - he revives a wish to be the leader in his dog by putting himself in a position of the weaker sibling who wants to snatch from under the nose but unable to do so. He intentionally plays the looser, thus admonishing his dog to feel like a winner. In this case it's not the dog wins over another dog, it's the dog wins over the man. Like to his sibling, that dog doesn't behave too agressively, because the man doesn't press him too much. And that is ... One of methods to grow guard dogs. To grow agressive domineering dogs, who are used to win over humans, who are used to put the enemy down. When it comes to serious part of training many dogs would be out of training, because they don't develop desired qualities. In everything the dog does - he must be the winner, even in the cruelest part of training when he could be badly beaten or half-suffocated.
Believe me or not, many people want to buy already trained GSD as their guard dogs. Someone fancies to own a real beast.


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## mharrisonjr26

David Taggart said:


> in order to stay fit the weaker dog has to shoo some of his brothers away from the remains of the kill. Getting to the food first - is a previledge. To shoo others away - is the previlage of the stronger -



What drives wild animals is self preservation. Domesticated animals should not behave that way.

IMHO I would not in any way say this video is cruelty. My cup of tea? No.To each their own. People who know nothing should not be so quick to demonize someone and/or there methods. 

I enjoyed reading this thread.
p.s I must also be cruel my dogs are not allowed on the furniture ever. LOL


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## hunterisgreat

mharrisonjr26 said:


> What drives wild animals is self preservation. Domesticated animals should not behave that way.
> 
> IMHO I would not in any way say this video is cruelty. My cup of tea? No.To each their own. People who know nothing should not be so quick to demonize someone and/or there methods.
> 
> I enjoyed reading this thread.
> p.s I must also be cruel my dogs are not allowed on the furniture ever. LOL


Self preservation drives the behavior of all life, domesticated or not, plant or animal. Thats why its not murder to eat the other guy if you're stranded in a lifeboat at sea and starving lol


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## blackshep

hunterisgreat said:


> Self preservation drives the behavior of all life, domesticated or not, plant or animal. Thats why its not murder to eat the other guy if you're stranded in a lifeboat at sea and starving lol


Well that is good to know! lol


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## Castlemaid

This is a two year old thread about food drive that was bumped up to take the thread off-course.


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