# Finding a responsible trainer



## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

MaggieRoseLee with input from others on this board put together an awsome sticky on Finding a Responsible Breeder. I am hoping some of the more knowledgeable members could put together something similar for finding a responsible trainer. I know you can ask for input about a particular trainer or help in finding a trainer in a specific area but what if you aren't far enough along in research to narrow it down to one particular trainer? 

Things have certainly evolved since I last used a trainer. Most say they use only positive reinforcement but some think using treats is food bribery and shun it. Some prefer clicker method while others avoid it wanting you to use only voice commands. Some use only one on one training while others prefer group training getting dogs to obey commands while distracted. And what about travel? I don't mean for specialized training, but it seems to me traveling 2-3 hours round trip for 45-60 minutes of basic training is counter productive. Oh and some use only off leash training while others prefer using a lead rope. Yeah I know there are preferences and it depends a lot on the individual dog but there must be some place where these topics are discussed and presented so people can determine what is best for them and their dog(s). 

Thanks.


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## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

Oh I forgot and what is a reasonable price for training? Is $800 for a 6 week class normal? Are the structured "packages" worth it? I wonder if taking a puppy from puppy kindergarten straight through to advanced training is the right way to go. Shouldn't I wait until the dog is ready for the next step rather than having him go from one class to another if he is not ready?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think with so many different training methods and opinions, it would be a challenge to put together a training sticky. 
Basic pet obedience training is different than sport training. 
Goal setting is all over the place too. Costs range due to location. 
That quote: "The only thing dog trainers agree on is that the other one is doing it all wrong!" 
is sadly true.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Palydyn said:


> Is $800 for a 6 week class normal?


ummmm....wow. That is high.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I still maintain that the most comprehensive, affordable way to learn about dog training irrelevant of location is here:
The courses are very in-depth.. A lot of information... that adresses most needs... plus feedback on all your questions.

Some courses even have video analysis of your own dog training and feedback..

https://leerburgonlineuniversity.com

Find a course that suites your needs:
Once you understand some basics, its easier to objectively find a trainer that can work with your own established philosophy... i.e. you will be naturally drawn to people who share your point of view...

I reccomend: 
1)Basic Dog Obedience
& 
2)Teaching Engagement Skills

This will give you an idea of what to look for a trainer...
Some people may have a problem with 1 style over the other... But the cumulation of experience from many dog trainers like the list below you cant go wrong...

Also its very affordable...
I strongly believe that basic training is about training the handler to train the dog and not the trainer teaching the dog...
Once you understand the basic concepts, you can formulate your own opinions on who to trust to train your dog...
Again Trainers always disagree with each other... So its always refreshing to see such a long list of succesfull trainers having a shared vision an co-operating, from each others experience.

Reputable instructors for leerburg online courses include:
Ed Frawley
Mark Keating
Forrest Micke
Gary Cassera
Jef Frawley
Michael Ellis
Cindy Rhodes
Kevin Shillah


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I dont like the idea of getting in bed with a trainer in an industry that is unregulated and trusting them vehemently...

Each trainer is different... So you could be very lucky... Or go completely wrong...

Its nice to have a lot of information about different training philosophies.. I like trainers who clearly state what they believe in and why... Leerburg has thousands of free articles/videos material explaining what they believe...

Read systematically and find your best fit...

This is leerburgs training philosophy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZUdxbE19oU

Getting hands on experience is invaluable I wont disagree there...
But the choice of trainer, and finidng a good one, is not an easy task...

You need some basic information before making such decisions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are interested in the online route,
Denise Fenzi has a great online school with instructors such as Shade Whitesel.
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Denise Fenzi

Personally, I think you miss out on so much by limiting to online courses. You can not replace immediate interaction between student and teacher.

How you train is up to you. It's really about your goals. I'm not a person who is 100% but I want clicker training and shaping to be 98% of what I'm doing.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My personal philosophy is find a trainer that has successfully trained and achieved what You want to achieve with multiple dogs. 

You want to train in IPO, find someone that has titled multiple dogs. You want to train for SAR, pick a trainer that has certified multiple dogs. 

I am not going to go to an English professor to learn calculus. 

Then watch them, watch their dogs, watch their interaction with client dogs. Are the dogs happy? Are the clients happy? Is the method something you are comfortable with and able to do on your own? 

Not every trainer or method is right for every dog and owner. The best trainer is the one that can help you achieve your goals in a manner you are comfortable with.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really wish this forum had a "like" button!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Here is what I would add.

1.Go watch the trainer train. Echoing above... do the dogs the trainer works with seem to be enjoying themselves. Are they bright, alert and engaged.
2.IMHO, Trainers that have worked with protection breeds tend to be a bit more versatile with their bag of training tools. Being a "positive only" without taking into account the individual dog is silly. Look for someone who is well able to use several tools based on the dog.
3.Trainers that own or work extensively with the breed I have matters to me. I went through several trainers and then specifically sought out and trained with someone whose personal dogs were malinois and GSD. It was like finding a pot of gold.
4. I prefer training one on one as so much of working with the protection breeds or a dog with issues is timing. You will only get consistent training on this when the trainer is focused on you. My experience is that one hour of one on one was equal to 5-6 group classes. This is where online or videos will fail you.
5. Think of training as investment with many years of return. Working with someone good can cost a pretty penny. But to me it is SOOOOOOOO worth the investment in terms of years of enjoyment with my dog because he is well behaved and trustworthy. I don't think you can get a good idea on prices. My trainer quotes a price for a set of training goals no matter how many sessions it takes. We have classes around here with so so trainers at $160 or so for a 6 week group course. One on one ranges from $50 to $100 an hour. I don't know the prices for something like an IPO training club. I don't have experience there but think these might hold good training opportunities too.
6. I think it is useless to go to training for "socialization". Maybe for ideas to socialize your pup around. But a room full of puppies flailing about doesn't serve any purpose for me or my dogs.

So my two cents. 

IT IS A GREAT INVESTMENT! that is my main message.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Palydyn said:


> Oh I forgot and what is a reasonable price for training? Is $800 for a 6 week class normal?


Are you talking about a group class, or private lessons? Cost vary widely depending on what part of the country you're in. I'm in the SF Bay Area, and what might be very reasonable here would be considered quite expensive somewhere else. I see you're in Southern California, so I'd expect your costs to be roughly comparable to mine. 

The group classes I've taken have varied from $120 to $200 for 6 one hour lessons. Private lessons are much more expensive. We had a group package from a very good, well respected trainer (Michael Ellis's business partner in the Loup du Soleil kennel), that was $700 for 10 lessons. That is a very good deal, especially since lessons were at least an hour and a half long, and sometimes more. I believe our initial lesson was closer to 2-1/2 hours, and we were working with two dogs, not just one. 

I would expect to pay as much as $100 for an hour lesson with a good private trainer in the Bay Area. That still makes $800 for 6 weeks on the high side.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

In order to find a good trainer these days a dog owner has to do some research. Nowadays that job is made easier by the Internet, but the problem is, especially for a beginner, separating the wheat from the chaff. And there is no shortage of chaff, some with huge websites and tons of videos for sale. Some offer lots of free information. Some offer nothing for free. Some offer material that appears to be free but often it's only the most introductory of material under the guise of a sales pitch saying "Buy My Videos!" and directing the view to a catalog where hundreds of costly video can be purchased. 

If a trainer has a website and a forum but he never goes outside that forum, that's a danger sign. If he won't participate in discussions where he's not in complete control of who says what, or even who can be on the forum, that's a sign that he either can't support his methods or he really doesn't know what he's doing, maybe both! If he bans those who disagree with him on the basics, watch out. 

I think that the best research is to talk directly to previous clients of the trainer. That's THE ONLY way to get direct feedback on how well the trainer communicates with the owner, how good his methods are, how well they work and how well the trainer interacts with the client's dogs. Testimonials are worthless unless the trainer allows potential clients to contact, and talk to the past clients directly. It's not unheard of for a trainer to write his own testimonials. 

There are lots of trainers who have a "demo dog," a dog that they trot out to show you how good their training is. There are some many problems with this. First, you have no idea if he really trained the dog himself. There are MANY trainers out there who have purchased a titled dog, then repeated the title. You also have no idea if he used the methods he's selling for your dog, on his dog. You also have no idea of how long it took to him to train the dog. It's not unheard of for trainers to boost their credentials. Some trainers have switched tools/methods more often than most of us change our socks. They're always looking for the "next big thing" so they can ride that wave to more profits. 

The ONLY measure of how good a trainer is, is how the dogs of his clients, your dog perhaps soon to be among them, respond to him and his methods. He may have a World Championship, but if he can't get your dog to sit on command, it's worthless to you. 

Something that not many people look at is, 'what kind of guarantee does the trainer offer.' Try returning a video that you purchased, only to discover that it's not returnable and that you have to purchase more and more videos to get the whole story. If a video has more than a few seconds of _"buy my next video"_ as is the case with one recommendation given here, run, RUN away as fast as you can. Many trainers offer 'free lifetime classes,' that is, you can participate in more of the same level of classes with your dog, that you paid for initially. But if the first set of classes didn't get you the results you wanted, why would you want to do more of the same thing? I only know of one trainer who offers a FULL MONEY BACK guarantee if you're not satisfied with the results you got from the training. 

As to the costs of training − A lot of this depends on "the market." Los Angeles, San Francisco and NYC are among the most expensive markets out there. But the cost of the training is not necessarily an indicator of the quality of the training. 

Although it's not quite what the OP asked for, I'd vote FOR the recommendation of Denise Fenzi. I KNOW that she's done the work shown on her videos. I KNOW that she's earned lots of titles herself, proving the repeatability of her methods. 

At the same time I'd vote AGAINST the recommendation for Leerburg and Mr. Frawley. Suffice it to say that his experience and results are not a match for those of Ms. Fenzi. I have lots of information but don't want to clutter up this thread. If you'd like to hear more PM me. 



Lykoz said:


> I still maintain that the most comprehensive, affordable way to learn about dog training irrelevant of location is here:


I still maintain that this site is worse than a waste of time. If the owner would clean it up so that old, monstrously brutal methods were either placed into a historical perspective or removed completely, so that a novice could not find it, think that it was current information, and put it to use, it might not be so bad. But as it stands now, the chance for a newbie to find this information is obvious and dangerous. 



Lykoz said:


> I reccomend:
> 1)Basic Dog Obedience
> &
> * 2)Teaching Engagement Skills *


I think that a good training method should not need a separate course on _"teaching engagement skills."_ With sound methods, engagement occurs naturally as part of the learning process. If it needs to be taught separately, there's something lacking with the method.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

and great examples of clash of egos. Too bad the ego gets in the way of many trainers.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

All the personal mud slinging stops now. It doesn't matter who you think you were wronged by. It is against forum rules. Posts will be deleted. Further action is possible. 

The mods


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

This is a great thread.....full of conviction and passion....and as an observer, I'm benefiting.

SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm getting lost. We're there any responsible trainers mentioned? Or any info on picking them out?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I enjoy training videos. I absolutely find dog training to be a 'Show Me' field.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> I enjoy training videos. I absolutely find dog training to be a 'Show Me' field.


I especially like them with wine and violin music.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm getting lost. We're there any responsible trainers mentioned? * Or any info on picking them out? *


Steve the thread was not about listing the names of _"responsible trainers."_ It was about how to "Find a Responsible Trainer." My post #12 CLICK HERE. contains a great deal of advice ON THE TOPIC. It seems to me that recommending a specific trainer is NOT what the OP wanted. But perhaps I'm assuming here. If that's what was wanted then it seems that the title and the first post would be significantly different.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

SuperG said:


> This is a great thread.....full of conviction and passion....and as an observer, I'm benefiting.
> 
> SuperG


Thanks SuperG. It's good to know that such efforts are appreciated.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We found our trainer by going to IPO training weekly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know if its been mentioned Palydyn, but one thing to consider, is this trainer someone I could stand spending an hour or more training with?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I should say that Martemchik recommended her to us as a last ditch effort to keep our girl in our home, and so far, it has been going swimmingly.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know if its been mentioned Palydyn, but one thing to consider, is this trainer someone I could stand spending an hour or more training with?


Good question Steve. This sort of thing is impossible to tell from a website. The BEST way to determine this, other than going to see him work, is as I said back in post #12, to talk directly to his previous clients.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know if its been mentioned Palydyn, but one thing to consider, is this trainer someone I could stand spending an hour or more training with?


This is good. I totally miss working with my trainer. We still keep in touch and my husband just adopted a GSD and will start working with him. I'm jealous. Thought about ways of distracting my husband, stealing the new rescue and going down for training myself. ;-)

That being said, you have to be able to check your ego at the door with a good trainer, I think. Usually the problem is the person and you need to be able to take critique and work with it. Thinking about this... I think I like a trainer with a sense of humor too


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And something else Palydyn, there's no substitute for seeing the training, first hand. No one is going to direct you to a negative review and not a lot of people are going to want to admit if they really didn't accomplish much for their money. They'll tend to consider the simplest of things as being more then it really is. Watch the training, you'll see.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DutchKarin said:


> *That being said, you have to be able to check your ego at the door with a good trainer, I think. Usually the problem is the person and you need to be able to take critique and work with it. * Thinking about this... I think I like a trainer with a sense of humor too


If I'm not getting yelled at or being told to 'put your dog in a down so I can talk to you' at every training session, I'm not getting my moneys worth, lol.....
the 'put your dog in a down' is speak for handler needs more training.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> If I'm not getting yelled at or being told to 'put your dog in a down so I can talk to you' at every training session, I'm not getting my moneys worth, lol.....
> the 'put your dog in a down' is speak for handler needs more training.


That's how I would want it with an instructor in most everything....no sugarcoating....

SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Originally Posted by DutchKarin View Post
> 
> That being said, you have to be able to check your ego at the door with a good trainer, I think. Usually the problem is the person and you need to be able to take critique and work with it. Thinking about this... I think I like a trainer with a sense of humor too





onyx'girl said:


> If I'm not getting yelled at or being told to 'put your dog in a down so I can talk to you' at every training session, I'm not getting my moneys worth, lol.....
> the 'put your dog in a down' is speak for handler needs more training.


Yeah, thats a good plan. Thin skinned and petty doesn't work well with dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> That's how I would want it with an instructor in most everything....no sugarcoating....
> 
> SuperG


I told one trainer I wasn't paying her to be my friend. She just simply wasn't charging enough for that.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've had to delete over half the posts, as they were more about personal bickering and mud-slinging than about answering the question. It was obvious that there is some personal animosity here between certain members, *but this board is NOT a an appropriate vehicle for these type of personal disputes.*

Thank you to those of you who were able to honestly help. 

ADMIN


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP- there are trainers and then there are TRAINERS. I've been to a so-so trainer, I've been to a good trainer and I go to a great trainer now. The price difference is slight. The travel time is a killer. But I'll still go.

You need to agree with their training method first. If you have reservations on correction collars, unfair corrections, so on then it's time to find another. If you feel lost in what you are supposed to do and your dog is not understanding, it's time to find another. 

I think the bottom line is get out there and watch the training sessions if possible. meet the trainer and discuss what their method is. Balanced is the word I look for in training. I don't want heavy compulsion. I want to teach my dog what I want. I want to introduce any correction collars so the meaning is clear. Think about what you want in a trainer and you'll find it.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

My advice in finding a proper trainer to anyone in the future looking for one..

Is to do basic calculations of what your dog needs, what you need, and your goals. 
All dog trainers are humans. So they make mistakes, typically have specialties in particular areas and rely on what they have been taught- so usually quite stubborn in their ways and will say negative things about other trainers techniques or ways of training. For example.. I have a friend who is a dog trainer. She does just click and treating training. She is opposed to e-collars, prongs, etc. And she is really good at showing _people_ how to train basic commands. 
While i wouldn't take my dog to her, because my dog has major behavioral problems, i do think she is a great trainer. And i would direct traffic her way with dogs who just are lacking basic manners and need to learn obedience. And probably people who are not confident with their ability to train and do proper timing. 

Where as my fourth trainer, works with dogs like mine who are fear aggressive to strangers, and many many other cases i couldn't see my friend trainer work with.

Zelda is not usually food motivated, not toy motivated.. So i needed a way to communicate what it is i want her to do. Without using these methods as the main way. I was very opposed to using e-collar, because i saw it used very very wrong before. But than i read into Lou Castle's website, and i started realizing that it actually can be a very beneficial tool. So it took me a while to find a proper trainer. But i found one, and i couldn't be more happy.

Zelda needed someone with experience dealing with a dog who has a major behavioral problem, such as FA. 
I needed someone who understood that although click and treat method works great- its not the only beneficial training tool/technique to use.. And with a dog like Zelda, i needed something that did not involve treats. 
My goal was to be able to be in the same room with strangers, and for Zelda to not freak out (as in bark, growl, lunge,etc.), also on walks i wanted to be able to walk near people without her lunging, barking, growling, and being completely calm and focused on me. And those seemed to be her goals for Zelda to reach, without me even telling her those were mine. Also talking to her on the phone, all of my questions were answered and i felt confident (most of the time) in the answers that i was given by her. What she said made sense about Zelda and her behavior. No red flags came up. 
After our sessions, i still didn't agree 100% with her on _everything_, but we were essentially on the same page. And i felt comfortable with her, guiding me to train Zelda. 
So it met what Zelda needed, what i needed and our basic goals.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Karin had some great advice and I very much agree with everything she said, especially how important it is to find someone familiar with your breed of dog and your goals for your dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

My favorite trainers are people I sought out after seeing what I liked watching dogs work, and inquiring about their training.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

gsdsar said:


> *My personal philosophy is find a trainer that has successfully trained and achieved what You want to achieve with multiple dogs. *
> 
> You want to train in IPO, find someone that has titled multiple dogs. You want to train for SAR, pick a trainer that has certified multiple dogs.
> 
> ...


I personally like this advice the best!


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