# Working/protection breeders in USA



## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Im just curious to see what kinds of responses i get. Im looking to learn more about the breeders here in the states. In your opinions who do you guys believe produces the best working dogs in the states? When i say working dog im not talking about sport dogs, im referring to patrol/ protection dogs. Im in need of a security dog, im willing to train/raise it from a pup and i have access to a local schutzhund/ipo club. Ive had a working dog before but i did not get an extreme dog because i wanted to build myself up as a handler. So who would you say is producing the most dogs with the most intense protection/ defense drives? This dog will not be around children or strangers for the most part, he will be a security dog whose purpose will be to add one more measure of safety into my life. I dont care about color or type of bloodline such as west german or ddr or czech, all i care about is getting an extreme dog with defense drive who is suspicious of everyone, obedient to my commands, and has the fight drive to carry out a fight with an intruder til the end. Alot of people have told me that i need to get a malinois from Logan Haus in west va or go to europe to meet a good gsd breeder such as Lupo nero, vikar kennels, or saltzablick, personally id like to stay with the GSD and get one from the states if possible. I appreciate any help i can get. Thanks


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## ODINsFREKI (Jul 30, 2013)

You have the money to buy a trained dog or are you looking for good genetics to try and train one yourself? DOD produces the best and most working dogs but they are not for sale. Quantity is not that important. Several good breeders in the US have Czech working lines instead of show dog genes. Most breeders will show what their dogs are capable of and what titles and jobs they perform. My first one was adopted. I highly suggest it! Ranger was one of my best as he respected me for getting him out of jail. Good book to start with is "how to be your dogs best friend" by some monks in NY. Good luck!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The problem with threads like this is that everyone has a different opinion of what they need, want, and should have on the street. Also if your starting with a puppy, it's the breeders job to supply you with the proper genetics, it's your job to understand how to use them. Meaning it's your job to bring out the traits you want with your training. Now that being said, here are some I would look into. 

Alaska Dog Boarding & Training
There website sucks, but the Lytles are great. I have worked a dozen plus dogs out of them and they would be my go to for a real working dog. Every dog I've worked out of them has a nice civil edge, zero handler aggression strong nerves, and they want to work. Drive levels range from medium/high to over the top. Just be honest with yourself about what you want and can handle. They have been fantastic with placing appropriately. 

Zu Treuen Händen Working German Shepherd Dogs in Michigan
Lisa has a litter coming up that I'm interested in. I have not seen the dogs work first hand, but based on pedigree and what she's told me about them, they are what I would look for. She definitely got my interest. 

I just got sidetracked and lost my train of thought. I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee yet haha. I'll come back to this.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You can check this site out too:

German Shepherd Breeder | Police Dogs | Schutzhund | Washington USA | BC Canada


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol I love how people say not sport as if there is a huge difference in the dogs. Let me guess these real dogs bite suits not sleeves?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If you want high suspicion I wouldnt go to Logan Haus his dogs tend to be high prey and super social. Makes for a good patrol dog .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I definitely disagree with the recommendations for European kennels....

It is just as much about bloodlines than kennels actually.

Lee


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Im not trying to say all dogs that do sport are bad, in just looking for a dog who works the decoy in defense drive instead of prey drive.


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

So who would you recommend Wolfstraum?


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Or what dogs should i be looking for in a pedigree


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

When i said most dogs i mean most likely to produce i dont care about the size of kennel


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Instead of working with an IPO club, you should be seeking out a PSA or SDA group. Many IPO clubs are not into training for the end goal of individual personal protection dogs, they are all about the points and not the aggression. Though, there are a couple clubs in my state that do both IPO and work dogs to bring out their aggression. It is all about the control however. 

A recent podcast with a breeder/trainer/helper said 
"In IPO there is no room for aggression". (19- 20 minutes into the interview) That statement is the opinion with many clubs...they train for points. 
That said, he may be a breeder to look at for the type dog you are interested in. 
Nate Harves w/ Sportwaffen may be another. 
I am also going to watch Lisa's upcoming litter with interest. Deja, her bitch is a very strong girl, serious and not for an inexperienced handler.
KNPV lines may be worth looking into.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Look at who made that statement. Look at the dogs he uses, and what he has produced. Look at where his dogs end up, how they are used in breeding and how they work.
Then tell me there is no aggression...lol.

I know the kind of dog your looking for OP. 
I just sold one recently to a family for PP, nice suspicion and operated out of defense in protection. Medium to lower drive, nice temperment. Mainly old Czech lines.
Not my kind of dog but to each their own.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> *Look at who made that statement. Look at the dogs he uses, and what he has produced. Look at where his dogs end up, how they are used in breeding and how they work.
> Then tell me there is no aggression...lol.*
> 
> I know the kind of dog your looking for OP.
> ...


My point was about the sport, not the breeder. Many who train in IPO do not want aggression, they like the teeth and the show, but not real aggression.


> RealShepherd1: all i care about is getting an extreme dog with defense drive who is suspicious of everyone, obedient to my commands, and has the fight drive to carry out a fight with an intruder til the end.


Nerve should be strong to support that suspicious attitude, confidence is more important than being suspicious. Intruders carry guns....the end may not even include a fight.


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Come on guys dont pick apart what i say like that, you know what i want. Of course the dog needs good nerves, i understand that. I just want him to be an aloof dog who isnt interested in making friends with strangers, i want a dog who will show strong defense and fight drive in the face of adversity. I know people carry guns, so by that logic is owning a protection dog pointless? A dog is just like gun its and added measure of security. I understand about the ipo clubs, mine is a smaller club and we are more concerned about training pp dogs, people only title their dogs in my club for fun for the most part. So does anyone want to give me any other names of kennels or bloodlines. Also thanks to those of you who have given your suggestions ive heard about that dog Deja and that kennel Zu Treuen Handen i believe


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## gabyeddo (Aug 14, 2013)

Hahaha! Quardes with no aggression.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I gave two kennel suggestions in my above post. Another to check out would be FullForceK9 he has a litter right now that may have a pup that would be of interest to you. The bitch(and stud) are from KNPV lines, I saw her work a week or less from importing...she was super strong yet very obedient without yet having a bond with her new owner/handler.
edit, I see there is only one male pup left available...do a search on fb for the most recent updates. Website is not updated as fb is.


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Thanks Onyx


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Personally - I have had 2 female families - the Basha family has been VERY successful in sport competition - 3 generations of dogs titled - 3 daughters of Basha have all produced dogs who do well at National level, with one going to Worlds....These are great sport dogs, outstanding temperaments and very solid nerves....

But my other family - Kyra to Csabre to Bengal/Kira - and now Lynx (10 mo) - is different - this line has more suspicion with appropriate aggression, power and has produced dogs who would be just as sucessful in LE as on the sport field...

The first family is primarily Belgian and West German bloodlines with Tom and Fero and Mink....there HAVE been some very strong dogs - but these lines are more "sporty"

The second family is rooted more in DDR, primarily Lord, with crosses out to Czech and Belgian lines....also free of the most common stud lines....this family has produced dogs that have been in LE and/or very capable of LE work in all generations. One Mondio/IPO trainer kept telling me I should sell my male as he would not do well for sport because he was a "police dog" ....

Lee


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Thank you wolfstraum. Are these dogs that you breed? If im not mistaken, you have a kennel, or am i wrong? Also from what you wrote i like the sound of the second family a bit better for what i need.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> My point was about the sport, not the breeder. Many who train in IPO do not want aggression, they like the teeth and the show, but not real aggression.
> 
> Nerve should be strong to support that suspicious attitude, confidence is more important than being suspicious. Intruders carry guns....the end may not even include a fight.


I wasnt talking about what some IPO people "want". I was talking about the reality behind the individual who made the statement you were quoting.
The reality is you dont have that kind of success in this sport without using and producing dogs that have aggression.

I keep seeing this BS about real vs sport dogs. It annoyes me, especially after seeing what many who talk about this consider real or sporty.

Sure there are dogs more oriented to PP then Sport and vice versa but the difference and type is a lot less disparate then many want to believe.


In the end the difference is mainly training, a good dog is a good dog whatever he is being used as.


I love hearing about real dogs that bite suits..lol.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> In the end the difference is mainly training, a good dog is a good dog whatever he is being used as.
> 
> 
> I love hearing about real dogs that bite suits..lol.



I agree how a dog is trained has a lot to do with it. But the traits that some sports like over others is pretty apparent. 

Biting a suit is more personal than biting a sleeve. Also where the dog bites changes how it sees things. Does that mean that all dogs who bite a suit a "real"? No it doesn't. But what about a tactical suit? Looks just like jeans and sweatshirt. Hurts like crazy as well. Muzzle work? How about hidden sleeves? Hidden cuffs? How about rolled up magazines? Just enough to stop the puncture?


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Blitzkrieg, if you want to make a suggestion then make it. It seems like your a schutzhund guy who got offended by what i said. As i understand it schutzhund was started to make sure this breed didnt lose its integrity as a working dog, now all you people have turned it into a sport. The problem with that is you use schutzhund to promote your kennels not to prove to yourself that you have good stock. So what ive seen is that schutzhund people are breeding dogs that will WIN in the SPORT of schutzhund regardless of what drive the dog is performing the task in. If a dog looks impressive on the sleeve or whole biting a suit but in his head hes playing a big game of tug, then to me, hes no more useful as a protection dog than my neighbors lab who plays tug of war and growls for dramatic effect. You may disagree with that, and thats fine, but go do it on some other thread. Im looking for breeder/bloodline info and suggestions. If you know of any breeders that have dogs that would be suitable for protection work id love to hear them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I wasnt talking about what some IPO people "want". I was talking about the reality behind the individual who made the statement you were quoting.
> The reality is you dont have that kind of success in this sport without using and producing dogs that have aggression.
> 
> I keep seeing* this BS about real vs sport dogs.* It annoyes me, especially after seeing what many who talk about this consider real or sporty.
> ...


again, you missed my point. 
Training with an IPO group for the end goal of having a PP dog that will fight to the end is probably not the best place to train, though RealShepherd1 made it clear his group has different goals than training for points and podium. How about suggesting lines/kennels instead of carrying on about real vs sport?


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

Look at Czech-Line for serious, suspicious, hard, high territorial aggression, strong nerves... 

Some names to look for in pedigree:

gero z blatenskeho zamku
carly policia slovakia
chuligan z pohranicni straze
furo kamos
gep z pohranicni straze
congo vikar


These are just the top of my head. Good luck.


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Thanks ballsofmeat, i appreciate the pm as well the site said im unable to pm you back until i post more, i like the breeder you recommended based off what i saw on his site.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I agree how a dog is trained has a lot to do with it. But the traits that some sports like over others is pretty apparent.
> 
> Biting a suit is more personal than biting a sleeve. Also where the dog bites changes how it sees things. Does that mean that all dogs who bite a suit a "real"? No it doesn't. But what about a tactical suit? Looks just like jeans and sweatshirt. Hurts like crazy as well. Muzzle work? How about hidden sleeves? Hidden cuffs? How about rolled up magazines? Just enough to stop the puncture?


Those are all good tools, and imo important to prepping the dog for a live bite. 
My statement was in relation to alot of posts about supposed real dogs and then you see a vid or pic of the dog on a suit as if thats the proof of his realness as opposed to a sleeve. 

For me its not so much what he is biting but how he is biting.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> again, you missed my point.
> Training with an IPO group for the end goal of having a PP dog that will fight to the end is probably not the best place to train, though RealShepherd1 made it clear his group has different goals than training for points and podium. How about suggesting lines/kennels instead of carrying on about real vs sport?


No, your still missing mine. I am not talking about the training he should do. I am talking about the dog itself.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

RealShepherd1 said:


> Blitzkrieg, if you want to make a suggestion then make it. It seems like your a schutzhund guy who got offended by what i said. As i understand it schutzhund was started to make sure this breed didnt lose its integrity as a working dog, now all you people have turned it into a sport. The problem with that is you use schutzhund to promote your kennels not to prove to yourself that you have good stock. So what ive seen is that schutzhund people are breeding dogs that will WIN in the SPORT of schutzhund regardless of what drive the dog is performing the task in. If a dog looks impressive on the sleeve or whole biting a suit but in his head hes playing a big game of tug, then to me, hes no more useful as a protection dog than my neighbors lab who plays tug of war and growls for dramatic effect. You may disagree with that, and thats fine, but go do it on some other thread. Im looking for breeder/bloodline info and suggestions. If you know of any breeders that have dogs that would be suitable for protection work id love to hear them.


 
Im not offended, I am just correcting misinformation .

Your best bet is to buy a young dog whos temperment you can already see. Preferably with hips elbows done. Your looking around 3k for what you want if you buy straight from the source. Most will have vids of some work and you can decide whats good and what isnt.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

RealShepherd1 said:


> Thank you wolfstraum. Are these dogs that you breed? If im not mistaken, you have a kennel, or am i wrong? Also from what you wrote i like the sound of the second family a bit better for what i need.


Exactly - the first family is sucessful in sport - although the one 3rd generation female from my family is actually a bit more real than most sport dogs - but she excels in sport....

Consistently, my second female family is what I feel is more balanced, closer to the "blueprint" of the standard.....the most recent litter, the N's, are sired by a dog who has produced LE dogs, yet he has shown at National level with respectable scores, and his progeny are both LE and sport prospects....the dam is a homebred.

Lee


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I have one of the males from Lee's bitch Csabre, and I can see where he is less sporty, a bit more suspicious and can be civil..


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think people would be interested about the actual training thats behind all the sport dogs that they pass judgement on. Just because they can score high points doesn't mean they won't bite you too.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Easier to take the dog out on a long line and watch him go nuts while the helper lays the leather to him..


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## RealShepherd1 (Aug 27, 2015)

What do you guys think of Radni Psi kennels in california ?


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