# Behavior Help



## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

I got my German Shepherd pup and named him Dutch in December 2020. He was about 10 weeks old. At the time, I lived next door to my parents in a Duplex. Whenever I had to leave for work, they would tend to him. My Dad loves animals and they were great together. In September 2021, I bought a house not too far away. And over the course of these last 5-6 months, I've slowly brought Dutch with me to stay for some weekends and I'd visit him most days after work at my parents house. My girlfriend and I have a two week old baby girl now and he has been good around her. Lately though, my parents have told me that Dutch has been growling at my Dad. The first time was about two weeks ago, he got a little sticker in his paw and my Dad tried to get it out and he growled at him. Today, though, I dropped Dutch off at my parents house and my Dad came home shortly after I left, went to pet Dutch and he growled again.

I'm guessing that Dutch has grown accustomed to my new house and is frustrated that I'm not keeping him there at all times. He sees me as his alpha male and another guess is that he doesn't see my parents place as home anymore. And he probably sees my Dad as the alpha male of that territory and he is starting to clash? It's just a guess, but any German Shepherd experts are more than welcome to weigh in. I'm not sure if I'm right or what is really causing the behavior, but I think the next move is to bring him home with me full time. And then I'm not sure what to do when I have to leave him and go to work all day.


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## Cheese Dog (11 mo ago)

Dutch374 said:


> I got my German Shepherd pup and named him Dutch in December 2020. He was about 10 weeks old. At the time, I lived next door to my parents in a Duplex. Whenever I had to leave for work, they would tend to him. My Dad loves animals and they were great together. In September 2021, I bought a house not too far away. And over the course of these last 5-6 months, I've slowly brought Dutch with me to stay for some weekends and I'd visit him most days after work at my parents house. My girlfriend and I have a two week old baby girl now and he has been good around her. Lately though, my parents have told me that Dutch has been growling at my Dad. The first time was about two weeks ago, he got a little sticker in his paw and my Dad tried to get it out and he growled at him. Today, though, I dropped Dutch off at my parents house and my Dad came home shortly after I left, went to pet Dutch and he growled again.
> 
> I'm guessing that Dutch has grown accustomed to my new house and is frustrated that I'm not keeping him there at all times. He sees me as his alpha male and another guess is that he doesn't see my parents place as home anymore. And he probably sees my Dad as the alpha male of that territory and he is starting to clash? It's just a guess, but any German Shepherd experts are more than welcome to weigh in. I'm not sure if I'm right or what is really causing the behavior, but I think the next move is to bring him home with me full time. And then I'm not sure what to do when I have to leave him and go to work all day.


IMO, it sounds like your Dad inadvertently reinforced the dog's growling and now the dog is testing. Also, the dog could be growling when petted by your Dad because of trust issues surrounding the incident of growling about the splinter in paw.

Maybe your Dad can give the dog some space and not force interaction such as petting until he can build trust back up, if that is the issue.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Truth is, we don't have enough info to even guess! 



Dutch374 said:


> The first time was about two weeks ago, he got a little sticker in his paw and my Dad tried to get it out and he growled at him.


So, how did your Dad react? What was the outcome?



Dutch374 said:


> Today, though, I dropped Dutch off at my parents house and my Dad came home shortly after I left, went to pet Dutch and he growled again.


Again, what was the reaction and the outcome?

Without knowing details, there's no way to know or even accurately guess anything!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My own dog growled and clearly would have bitten me had I pressed her once at around 9 or 10 months. I remained insistent, but did not pressure her enough for her to bite.

In the end, she complied with my command, but it was reluctant and only possible because I slacked off my body posture and spatial pressure, and waited her out.

In the end, I did not give up, nor just walk away and give up. That is extremely important! She didn't win, I didn't really either, it's more like we discussed it and came to a mutually beneficial conclusion! 

And that's exactly why the outcome of these two growling incidents matter a lot!


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

tim_s_adams said:


> Truth is, we don't have enough info to even guess!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It bummed my Dad out pretty bad because he loves this dog.

The first time when he had something in his paw he growled a little when my Dad tried to pull it out, he tried again and he growled harder and showed his teeth. The next time he just walked away and did his own thing I believe.


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

Also. The second time Dutch growled at my Dad after he came home from work, I was gone and Dutch was in his kennel where he sleeps and didn't really want to come out. The next day everything was fine.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm not a GSD expert but I've raised 4 of them. A growl is communication. Now you have to figure out how to interpret it and address it. As for feet, all of my shepherds have been extremely sensitive about their feet. I still cannot trim Dasha's toenails without her being in a muzzle. If I need to inspect a sore on her feet I have to approach her in a way that she isn't aware that this is what I'm doing or she will growl and even bite me. (Oddly, I can wash and dry her feet with no problems.) As for the dog being in his crate, well, the crate is a safe zone for these dogs and the growl was a warning to not invade it. Redirection, with other commands and/or treats will usually get the dog up and moving if there are no other problems.


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

It's getting to the point that I can't leave him with my parents. I brought him back this afternoon. The first thing he did was greet my Dad with tons of love. I walked outside and left him there with my Dad and after a few minutes he was growling at my Dad.

Also, last night at my house, I have an add on room in the backyard that has two sliding glass doors which each lead to the backyard and the master bedroom. My wife and baby were in the master bedroom and I was in the add on room with the dog. Every few minutes the wife knocked on the glass door to get my attention. After about the 3rd or 4th time, he acted extremely aggressive and lunged at the closed glass door where she was standing.

I have no idea how to interpret this kind of behavior or how to address it. I feel like a terrible and clueless dog owner. The last thing I want to do is give him away. But I'm at a loss for how to handle this behavior.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

First, neither barking or growling are aggression on their own. They can mean excitement, frustration, confusion... We have no idea what's going on. You don't know enough about dogs to read the dog and give us the pertinent information.

I suggest you find a club or trainer familiar with working dogs and get involved. 

On top of that, the dog needs a leader. Here, down... Problem solved.

I think you need qualified help with your dog.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Get a trainer familiar with herding/working/GSD dogs
Learn to read his body language and how to correct appropriately
Growling at family without reason (and there are very few reasons) is a non-starter


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

My best guess as to why he's behaving this way is the anxiety he gets if I'm not around. I work very long, grueling hours. We had a baby on Super Bowl Sunday and I go back to work next Wednesday. I've spent a lot of time with him, kept him at my house and he seems to be nearly a flawless dog when I'm around 99% of the time. I think he carries the anxiety that I'm going to leave and he won't see me for days again. I worry that maybe over time he developed huge anxiety issues over that, but again, it's just my best guess. And I don't know what it is, but I know that he would have never lunged toward my wife if she wasn't behind the glass. I don't know what causes that behavior when there is a fence or gate or glass between a dog and another person or animal, but it took me by complete surprise when he did that to her.

Is he having problems accepting the people that I love? Is he having problems realizing this is also his family? I have no idea. I'm doing my best, but I feel like I'm failing. I'm going to try to contact a German Shepherd trainer in my area (Victorville, Hesperia, Apple Valley) as soon as I can afford it. I want him to be part of this family. I'm more than aware what a great breed these dogs are but I had no idea it would take this much work. 

He's 18 months old this month. Are the articles true when they say German Shepherds tend to behave much better when they reach 3 years old?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Get a trainer familiar with herding/working/GSD dogs
> Learn to read his body language and how to correct appropriately
> Growling at family without reason (and there are very few reasons) is a non-starter


This implies correcting a dog when it growls and that is a terrible mistake imo. Growling is communication and you need to address the cause, if it's discomfort, frustration or aggression, and not excitement, before you go correcting the dog.

Both my dogs growl a lot. None of it is an indication of aggression. 

Correcting a dog that is uncomfortable and growling to communicate that state will lead to a bite.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Dutch374 said:


> My best guess as to why he's behaving this way is the anxiety he gets if I'm not around. I work very long, grueling hours. We had a baby on Super Bowl Sunday and I go back to work next Wednesday. I've spent a lot of time with him, kept him at my house and he seems to be nearly a flawless dog when I'm around 99% of the time. I think he carries the anxiety that I'm going to leave and he won't see me for days again. I worry that maybe over time he developed huge anxiety issues over that, but again, it's just my best guess. And I don't know what it is, but I know that he would have never lunged toward my wife if she wasn't behind the glass. I don't know what causes that behavior when there is a fence or gate or glass between a dog and another person or animal, but it took me by complete surprise when he did that to her.
> 
> Is he having problems accepting the people that I love? Is he having problems realizing this is also his family? I have no idea. I'm doing my best, but I feel like I'm failing. I'm going to try to contact a German Shepherd trainer in my area (Victorville, Hesperia, Apple Valley) as soon as I can afford it. I want him to be part of this family. I'm more than aware what a great breed these dogs are but I had no idea it would take this much work.
> 
> He's 18 months old this month. Are the articles true when they say German Shepherds tend to behave much better when they reach 3 years old?


VLK West is in Banning. I suggest you contact them.


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

I made an appointment with the most reputable dog training area in my town who are apparently great with German Shepherds. I made the appointment back in March and they had nothing available until July 18th. So I took the nearest appointment.

On June 26th, my Dad took Dutch to the park to get him some exercise and have a little fun. This particular poop session was pretty wet and he had poop on his fur near his butt. My Dad got a wipe and started wiping him down and Dutch seemed a little nervous like most dogs do when you're near their backside. Some poop came off and landed on Dutch's back leg, when my Dad went to clean it off, Dutch bit him pretty bad on the hand. He needed to get his hand looked at by the doctor and they glued him up. Dutch is behaving normally as if it never happened and my Dad is still helping to take care of him. I'm completely mortified and clueless on how to handle this situation. Someone please help. I don't think we can wait until July 18th. He challenged my niece yesterday also and barked at her as she walked by.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Seriously consider muzzle training (basket muzzle) until you get the help you need.20 days to go!


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

Perhaps the most frustrating, but definitely the most discouraging, part of all this is the conflicting information I get when researching these behavioral problems. One expert says one thing, another expert says the opposite. And even after researching the bite incident I'm seeing recommendations all over the map. Many pieces of advice suggest this is definitely a situation that is scary, but very correctable, while others say the only option is euthanasia. I'm crushed and lost and it's totally disheartening and discouraging and not only am I afraid I'll never be able to leave him unattended with my wife and baby, but I might have to go to the last resort options. I can't describe the sadness I feel for my Dad, for my dog, for everyone involved. I am just at an absolute loss here.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If at all possible while keeping everyone absolutely safe,keep the dog secured, muzzle him,and meet with the trainer before making a decision on the next step. Stop depending on internet strangers! They (and us here) have no way to accurately assess your dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sounds like the poop wiping incident was a fear bite. But as Dogma said, without having boots on the ground to see your dog's body language, it's really difficult to know what's going on with him.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Dutch374 said:


> Perhaps the most frustrating, but definitely the most discouraging, part of all this is the conflicting information I get when researching these behavioral problems. One expert says one thing, another expert says the opposite. And even after researching the bite incident I'm seeing recommendations all over the map. Many pieces of advice suggest this is definitely a situation that is scary, but very correctable, while others say the only option is euthanasia. I'm crushed and lost and it's totally disheartening and discouraging and not only am I afraid I'll never be able to leave him unattended with my wife and baby, but I might have to go to the last resort options. I can't describe the sadness I feel for my Dad, for my dog, for everyone involved. I am just at an absolute loss here.


First things first, it's past time to stop treating this dog like any other family pet, or you'll continue to get the same outcome. That's not the dog's fault...

Muzzle train the dog! Did you contact the trainer David Winners recommended? Someone with experience needs to evaluate the dog in person.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Baskerville muzzle was super fast and easy to condition my dogs to wear them. 
The muzzle allows the dog to take treats and drink water. 
I held my hand with a treat where the food goes dogs sticks his muzzle in gets rewarded. Once the dog was sticking his muzzle in which only took a few reps I say muzzle move my hand to reward spot and dog takes reward inside the muzzle. Within a couple days I was able to put the muzzle on adjusting the straps. Then extend the time they wore the muzzle rewarding here and there. 
It was no big deal to the dog.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

You have a dog on your hands that the average person can’t handle. My dog doesn’t go to the groomer, doggy day care, or stay unattended with anyone other than me. I would trust him unattended with an experienced handler that I have seen work dogs - with anyone else he’s a serious risk and liability. If owning your dog involves your family being involved with a lot of the care, you may have a dog ill suited for that. I worry about the safety of the baby with this dog. I like this approach for what it’s worth:


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

tim_s_adams said:


> First things first, it's past time to stop treating this dog like any other family pet, or you'll continue to get the same outcome. That's not the dog's fault...
> 
> Muzzle train the dog! Did you contact the trainer David Winners recommended? Someone with experience needs to evaluate the dog in person.


Nothing is the dog's fault. I am taking full responsibility for everything, whether or not some things are beyond my control.

I can't get ahold of them. The phone rings twice and hangs up. I checked out the website and it seems promising and hopeful, but apart from taking a long drive just to knock on their door and hope for an answer, I can't reach them.


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

Apex1 said:


> Baskerville muzzle was super fast and easy to condition my dogs to wear them.
> The muzzle allows the dog to take treats and drink water.
> I held my hand with a treat where the food goes dogs sticks his muzzle in gets rewarded. Once the dog was sticking his muzzle in which only took a few reps I say muzzle move my hand to reward spot and dog takes reward inside the muzzle. Within a couple days I was able to put the muzzle on adjusting the straps. Then extend the time they wore the muzzle rewarding here and there.
> It was no big deal to the dog.


Can you provide do's and don'ts for going about with the muzzle method?

I've also heard of Nothing in Life is Free methods. Should I do that, and how would I begin this method? What should I do and what should I avoid?


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

Sunsilver said:


> Sounds like the poop wiping incident was a fear bite. But as Dogma said, without having boots on the ground to see your dog's body language, it's really difficult to know what's going on with him.


I do have several videos of these incidents that I can provide. Also, most of the incidents occur when I am not around, so I also don't really get an in person view of what's going on


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

I talked with a reputable trainer in the area. He recommended I put him down. If he's exhibiting unpredictable behavior and biting a family member, there is nothing correctable that can be done. It's devastating.


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

He's suspecting he was just not bred properly.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Did this reputable trainer handle the dog or just hear about the problems? Have someone experienced with the breed evaluate the dog in person to get the best picture. The least you can do for the dog is get a second opinion.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You never posted those videos. Did this trainer review them or just make up their mind without really any information?


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

I brought him in for an evaluation. He put the dog in a sizable outdoor cage and evaluated him in a couple of minutes. Immediately told me he would absolutely never trust that dog around a child or spouse. And that's even if he didn't have a bite history, but he has a bite history too. He said he could take my money and do training, recommended getting him neutered immediately, but also said I should strongly consider making the hard decision because this is not normal GSD behavior. He suspects improper breeding and that there may be some incest. He says 10 years ago this was never an issue, but people breed too many dogs trying to make money and eventually they breed into the family line and you get incest, which is the likely the cause of unpredictable behavior.

I made an appointment for the 22nd of this month to get him neutered, the earliest they had, but his behavior is worsening. Last week when I was with my Dad I got to see the behavior in person finally. My Dad came up to the dog and I as we were playing he tried to gently say hello and pet him and he barked twice, then lunged for an attack. I was able to tackle the dog before he could get a hold of my Dad. I told the trainer this today and he said it's the hardest decision, but putting him down is what he would do in my situation because it's not worth the risk. Neutering and training can only reduce so much aggression and he can't think of any one person in his clientele who would be willing to take a dog like this.

I'm taking him to a vet to be evaluated and to determine whether or not he is the type that should be put down. But for now I'm preparing for the worst. I took the rest of the week off work and have the dog with me while the wife and baby are separated. Dutch and I just shared a ribeye steak and he loved it. The whole family is sad.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Sorry for what you’re going through -heart breaking  you’ve done everything to give the dog a chance and it’s understandable to put your family first


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## Dutch374 (11 mo ago)

I had him alone with me this morning while I was watching a movie. I started to cry a little. Dutch noticed, came over to me, went directly for my eyes and alternated licks with each eye. Then he let out a few cries with me like I never heard before. It wasn't similar to a cry to go potty, it was like he was in physical pain. 

Makes this so much harder.


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