# "out" command



## hwtan (Jan 20, 2014)

the abandon gsd i adopt

will need lotsa bonding, thus the best way i reckon is to play with him
as he got good prey drive.

the only problem now is, he doesnt want to let go the tug toy or the ball

how can i train him to let go? 

he will just continue to chew it when i bring him back into his kennel.

any advice?


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Use two balls/toys and rotate them as your dog returns with the other.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i taught my dog "leave it" and "drop it". if you don't
know how to train find a trainer.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Here's a helpful link I've seen posted here before.

Two Squeakies


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

If he is treat motivated, every time he brings you the toy give your command to drop, and offer a treat. 

If that doesn't work (not too much for my insanely toy motivated boy) we rotated toys. I would say drop it and offer another toy.


----------



## hwtan (Jan 20, 2014)

thanks folks!!

got i!!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I teach the OUT by making the tug go dead, and then immediately rewarding the out with a re bite. The game stops until the dog outs, and then immediately starts again.

I caution against bribing the dog to return the toy by showing it another one. You are just setting up a situation where the dog will only bring you something when you have something to offer.

I like to teach the dog that the act of tugging is the fun thing, not the possession of the tug.


----------



## harmony (May 30, 2002)

David Winners said:


> I teach the OUT by making the tug go dead, and then immediately rewarding the out with a re bite. The game stops until the dog outs, and then immediately starts again.
> 
> I caution against bribing the dog to return the toy by showing it another one. You are just setting up a situation where the dog will only bring you something when you have something to offer.
> 
> ...



wow really LOL,


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

harmony said:


> wow really LOL,


I'm not alone in training the out this way. It's how most sport / LE / mil trainers that I know teach the out.

Did you have some advice?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

David I was looking for a video like that when someone asked on my thread ......... I am going to PM them and point them here. Thanks for posting. It is the way the police here train it and if anyone needs a reliable out........of course one of the things I have learned....a stiffer dog easier to go dead


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> David I was looking for a video like that when someone asked on my thread ......... I am going to PM them and point them here. Thanks for posting. It is the way the police here train it and if anyone needs a reliable out........of course one of the things I have learned....a stiffer dog easier to go dead


I think you meant a stiffer TUG easier to go dead


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL that first cup of coffee is a bear.........past my 10 minute edit time, too . Of course you just gave me a flashback to that book "101 things to do with a dead cat"


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I actually typed out a couple different stiff dead animal jokes, but they were all completely tasteless LOL


----------



## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

David Winners said:


> I teach the OUT by making the tug go dead, and then immediately rewarding the out with a re bite. The game stops until the dog outs, and then immediately starts again.
> 
> I caution against bribing the dog to return the toy by showing it another one. You are just setting up a situation where the dog will only bring you something when you have something to offer.
> 
> ...


This is how I teach my SchH dogs the "AUS!" (Out) command as well...they learn it very fast too. 
(I just train in German language).

(Working with with 2 toys or balls would NOT have worked for me, for that particular command or what I was looking for.)

To this day, if my 6 year old even sees the tug, she's ready for engagement/play.

Good video example of the way I do it. Thanks!

JMO.  Kat


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some folks don't like two ball for fetch. Do you think this sets it up? In that scenario you are not engaged with the tug. I have and still play two ball because it is a great way to exercise in a short amount of time.....just curious since it was suggested for the OP.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I wish he had the first session with that dog on video so you could see the initial struggle trying to dead the tug.

Anyone really interested in this method of tug should check out the Michael Ellis tug video.


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

This is really interesting. Think it would work with a tennis ball? Titan is awesome at dropping anything but that lol.. have been looking for a new way. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's REALLY hard to make a tennis ball dead enough for initial training, even with a rope attached. You almost always have to pull towards you, which keeps the dog in the game.

I teach the OUT with a tug and then transition to a ball with a string, then to a regular ball.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I'm not alone in training the out this way. It's how most sport / LE / mil trainers that I know teach the out.
> 
> Did you have some advice?


Its the way i teach it


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some learning points from someone who managed to mess THAT up 

Stiff hard tug is easier to make dead but you have to build the dog up to holding it. 

Be generous...most people (raises hand) progress from giving back to keeping it way to fast-you have to build time. So multiple reps and do it a lot before you actually just keep it. I am doing 3-4 reps in a session right now.

Have a release word to allow the dog to reclaim the tug each time. Do it quickly! As soon as he outs. Don't make him wait.

Don't get too carried away with tug play between outs

IF the dog is strong enough to continue the game with you making it dead by yanking YOU around...I learned to put my leg forward to support his weight, hold the tug higher and give the sit command but that may be more than you need or is not consistent with the above.......on learning here with one who really wants to keep tugging.

I am still on a learning curve with mine having made some mistakes so feel free to correct.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@Joycoyn and David- the video does help paint a better picture, thanks. Zoe has very high intensity using a flirt pole, she will get to a point in the game where she will not let go. You can put her in a down, roll her over, etc.. not happening. Letting her win/parade has helped tremendously, but her out could still be better.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This brings up a good point that Nancy touched on.

Especially during training the OUT, you don't want to have massive 45 second tug sessions and then ask for an OUT. This leads to the dog sticking. You want 2-3-4 quick swings and then the tug goes dead. That's it.

Later on, you can build on the behavior until the dog will out in any condition and drive state. This takes time though.




Nigel said:


> @Joycoyn and David- the video does help paint a better picture, thanks. Zoe has very high intensity using a flirt pole, she will get to a point in the game where she will not let go. You can put her in a down, roll her over, etc.. not happening. Letting her win/parade has helped tremendously, but her out could still be better.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

What are peoples idea if a dog actually won't out and where it is hard to stabilize the tug as it is pulling back so much.

My friends dog is like this. He just locks on to anything he can and doesn't growl or every get aggressive. He just has this glare in his eye and will put up with a lot of punishment and still hold the ball, or tug or stick. 

When he's going for the tug he will also nip fingers. 

He does sometimes out for another toy.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Zoe catches the flirt pole toy very quickly, each round only lasts a few seconds. I've tried using tiny lures and even tried nothing trying to extend the game a few more seconds, so I'm not sure thats the problem.


----------



## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I used the two ball method to teach "drop it" upon a retrieve. I weaned her from the second ball when she lost the first one in the house somewhere.

It was not difficult and she caught on quickly.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Teaching a dog to out with tension is practically a separate exercise although it is learned really quickly once the basic out is in place. So when you make the tug go dead try to prevent tension if possible. Also don't hold the tug by the handles as it allows the dog to self satisfy into the moving tug while you make it go dead.


----------



## hwtan (Jan 20, 2014)

that is a good point!






Baillif said:


> Teaching a dog to out with tension is practically a separate exercise although it is learned really quickly once the basic out is in place. So when you make the tug go dead try to prevent tension if possible. Also don't hold the tug by the handles as it allows the dog to self satisfy into the moving tug while you make it go dead.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> So when you make the tug go dead try to prevent tension if possible. Also don't hold the tug by the handles as it allows the dog to self satisfy into the moving tug while you make it go dead.


If you don't hold the handles of the tug what do you hold. 

And again how do you 'make the tug go dead' if a dog is intent on winning the tug.

I can see the technique working on a pup or a dog who is not mad for the tug. 

Basically a dog with a lot of experience of winning the tug and dominating anything that enters his mouth is a different story. 

I use the pause and wait til the dog releases method, and the waive another tug or ball around to encourage the dog to release and a correction method to out.


----------



## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> If you don't hold the handles of the tug what do you hold.
> 
> And again how do you 'make the tug go dead' if a dog is intent on winning the tug.
> 
> ...


You need a copy of the power of playing tug with your dog by Michael Ellis. Giving a correction can cause is own set of issues.


----------



## floyd_kassandra (Dec 28, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Use two balls/toys and rotate them as your dog returns with the other.





Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

MadLab said:


> If you don't hold the handles of the tug what do you hold.
> 
> And again how do you 'make the tug go dead' if a dog is intent on winning the tug.
> 
> ...




I'm assuming by not grabbing the handles, he means grabbing the tug itself closer to the dogs mouth to prevent movement. 

Making the tug "dead" has nothing to do with the dog's intent. 

By releasing tension, again I'm assuming, but I think he's referring to back pressure. If you hold a dog back then ask it to out, it will actually fight harder to stay on because you tap into it's opposition reflex.

I wouldn't give a correction for an out on a dog that's just learning. Once it has an understanding of out then a correction done correctly with a reward done correctly is fine.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Actually that is why I was taught to do it with the tug held up higher....and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit and is corrected for not sitting. Different approach but several police I know use it.

I moved to a piece of heavy heater hose. A teammate has a dowel through hers to make it even stiffer. No flex. Also dog both front feet off the ground has less leverage. No handles. I was using the Leerburg 15" no handle tug for difficult to out dogs but it had too much flex.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Actually that is why I was taught to do it with the tug held up higher....and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit and is corrected for not sitting. Different approach but several police I know use it.
> 
> I moved to a piece of heavy heater hose. A teammate has a dowel through hers to make it even stiffer. No flex. Also dog both front feet off the ground has less leverage. No handles. I was using the Leerburg 15" no handle tug for difficult to out dogs but it had too much flex.



Held up higher, but not lifting the dog off the ground. It also puts the dogs head in a different angle. I do the same thing when I lock up with sleeve/suit. I suck my arm in, up, and rotate a bit to put the dog in a different angle. One for me to control the dog, and two because for some reason they just want to let go in that position. Again, I'm only talking about teaching an out. Not a dog that already has an understanding of an out.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Making the tug "dead" has nothing to do with the dog's intent.


I'm just looking at this for a dog which is yanking on the tug and not giving you a chance to 'let the tug go dead' as is being suggested. How can the tug go dead if the dog is locked on and using all his strength to drag away from you. 

I can see how that technique works for many situations. As I said upstream i know this dog that will not give up as he has been winning tug and anything else that enters his mouth since he was a pup. 

I'd like to see this dog taught an out with out a correction but I can't see it happening.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is why I was told to hold mine up high . And corrections were involved for not "sitting" which is a known command. Had to out to sit....but had it been done properly from the start, and then maintained......we would not be there.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Its how ivan and michael do it. Id you wanna see it get ivans the game dvd or michaels tug dvd. There are ways to make the tug dead and stable and boring even if the dog holds on. the dog


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> That is why I was told to hold mine up high . And corrections were involved for not "sitting" which is a known command. Had to out to sit....but had it been done properly from the start, and then maintained......we would not be there.


I like it


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

MadLab said:


> I'm just looking at this for a dog which is yanking on the tug and not giving you a chance to 'let the tug go dead' as is being suggested. How can the tug go dead if the dog is locked on and using all his strength to drag away from you.
> 
> I can see how that technique works for many situations. As I said upstream i know this dog that will not give up as he has been winning tug and anything else that enters his mouth since he was a pup.
> 
> I'd like to see this dog taught an out with out a correction but I can't see it happening.



The out needs to be between handler and dog. It should not be taught on the decoy. There shouldn't be that much conflict/fight in the game IMO. If the dog is pulling the handler around, why not move to a slick floor or back the dog against a wall even use a bite box so the dog is contained? All I'm trying to say is there are many little tricks (like Nancy's) that can be used before just correcting for it. If you have to correct the out all the time then how are you suppose to out the dog from a distance? e-collar? Don't get me wrong, I do give corrections for outs, just not when teaching it.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I usually wait em out. Once you stabilize the tug they generally get bored. If you remember how i teach off for puppy biting and then generalize it for getting him to stop messing with other stuff it helps because off and out sound very similar and hes already sort of primed to give not messing with the tug a try. Its a little trick i use.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The harder tug helps too. A dog can get a lot of satisfaction chomping on and bending a soft tug.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup but in a pinch you can grip closer to the dogs mouth to stop movement too as has been mentioned


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If the dog already knows the "Out" command, is it possible that you've negated it somehow? I'm no expert, but I do know with my own dogs that if I told them to release, and they didn't, then I had to make sure they understood the gamed ended immediately. Others would reinforce this bad habit, by pulling back while saying "drop it" and that confused my dog. 

This is from a pet perspective, so please feel free to ignore my post if it goes against working theory. I used the 2 ball technique with this pup without issues.


----------



## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I'm just looking at this for a dog which is yanking on the tug and not giving you a chance to 'let the tug go dead' as is being suggested. How can the tug go dead if the dog is locked on and using all his strength to drag away from you.


You don't "let" the tug go dead. You "make" the tug go dead. Grab the tug un either side of the dog's mouth and clamp it down between your legs if that's what it takes.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Just dont do that in a good pair of pants


----------

