# Sudden guarding aggression



## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Hi all,
We have a huge problem with my 19 week old that just came out of nowhere. Yesterday while my husband was flirting with her, they took a break and he put the flirt down and went to handle her. We practice handling her multiple times a day (let me see your teeth, your ears, your eyes, your paws, etc). She growled and snapped at him in a way that suggested she was guarding the flirt. We thought it might be an isolated incident because she doesn't want to be handled when she's in prey drive mode, which makes some sense.

She got LOTS of exercise last night and this morning we got up and went out as usual. My husband took her for a walk and it went great. Then he fed her in her crate. We do it exactly the same way all the time. We prepare her food in one bowl and then dole it out in portions in another bowl while she's in her crate. So she sits and waits for us to prepare it, then she settles in the crate, then she gets the food. When the bowl is empty, we take it out (she stays in the crate), put more in, and give it back to her. We have always done this and she's always been perfectly fine. But this morning, she guarded her bowl, even when it was empty and he was putting more in. She barked and actually bit his hand and drew blood. I went in to finish feeding her and she was fine when I gave her her food, but when I went to take the bowl away, she barked and snapped at me. She's obviously resource guarding, but why now? We've been taking her to puppy training and working with her constantly. We exercise her and love on her and she's really been coming along with obeying us more and biting less. But this new behavior out of nowhere is terrifying. She's 45 pounds already and will obviously only get bigger. I know there are things we can work on with guarding, but it worries me that we had already firmly established with her that us being around while she's eating is a GOOD thing. We take the bowl, she gets more food. 

We're both in tears because we feel like we already give every single minute of our time and effort to this dog. We work full time and we walk her every morning, come home and interact with her every lunch, and exercise and play with her every night for all of the time we have. She's always been on the verge of being "too much dog" for us, but I've always said that if it's just a matter of us trying harder, we'll keep trying harder. She's SO good and SO sweet and we love her SO much. But I don't know how much MORE work we can do.

I know that guarding is a fairly common issue, but does anyone know why it would come out of nowhere like this? And what we can do about it?


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Your pup is nearly 5 months and growing up. She is a high drive pup according to your post. You didn't say how your husband reacted when she growled when he picked up the flit pole. If he did nothing to discipline her (meaning - when she growled - he told her immediately in a stern voice - to sit and stay - and then picked up the flit pole). If he backed away and gave up, then her behavior the next day when being fed and she bit your hand - is perfectly understandable. She got away with the behavior the day before in a mild form with the growling and won (according to her way of thinking) so now she is the boss and will take over. You and your husband need to take charge. I suggest you stop with the doling out of the food that has become a game to her. Put all her food down at once and leave her eat alone. For the flit pole - well you have already realized this, but I would not put down her beloved flit pole which she is focused on as the prey and then expect her to accept petting. What I would expect her to do is after I let her take a victory lap with the flt pole after a game is over, to bring it to do me and give it to me, I would put it away and then I would give her treat in return and praise her for playing well. If you have classes in your area, I suggest you sign up, because with your pup - walks, exercise, and love are not enough. She needs training and a job to do which she does when she performs the obedience exercises. I also suggest you start with the Nothing In Life is Free program - there are some excellent threads on that.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

She did not win when she growled at him yesterday. He took her leash, made her sit, told her NO, and then moved her to a different location and examined her as he had planned. 

The only reason we ever doled out her food was to slow her down some when she was eating. She's always been perfectly fine with us doing it. This is the first time she's ever shown any even slight problem with it. In fact, I would often ruffle her head after putting her food down and she wouldn't respond at all (except to keep voraciously eating). 

We have in her basic puppy training and we go three times a week. The class is only technically once per week, but they do it in different locations and don't mind if you attend various ones. We go so often because she needs the socialization with other dogs and we think it's good for her to repeat the tasks. We work with her on the homework all the time, and we practice NILIF. She doesn't get anything without doing something for it first.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It probably isn't good practice to mess with a puppy at all when it is eating, head ruffling included in that. 

The puppy escalated its behavior, so it more than likely got some sort of feedback that it found positive enough to continue the behavior and escalate it. His negative feedback might have came way too late after the puppys behavior to be effective or it might have been done in too weak a way after he did something that showed weakness such as gasping or falling back a bit in shock to the new behavior (it isn't really new he learned this works with his liter mates long ago) . I don't know what happened, I just suspect it did, but we can only take your word for it.

You have a 1.5 second window or so to punish an undesirable behavior with good effectiveness. The further outside that window you go the more the chance the puppy will fail to link the consequence with the action. Past 4-5 second mark you might as well not punish at all because the dog just won't get it.

Had a puppy of mine done this the no followed by appropriate level of handtronix (a pop with the hand) would have been applied immediately. I wouldn't have tried to give an obedience command to rectify a behavior problem, you don't want your dogs associating obedience with punishment or correction anyway, because you want those behaviors associated with positive things. On top of that according to what you said he punished your puppy for sitting. He took the leash told the dog to sit then said no.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I would wonder is it a good idea to give her food in stages. I find when I add more food to a dogs bowl it encourages them to wolf the food. As in swallow as fast as possible rather than eat it slowly. It also increases competition. It is easier for them to understand, 'here's my food and nobody or dog is gonna mess with it and I'm gonna eat it'.

I would just give the bowl all at once and let her eat it in peace. When i feed I hold the bowl of food over the dog or pup and wait for them to give me eye contact and then give them the food. Usually they will be transfixed with the food but after a while they realize when they sit relaxed and look at me they get the food served quicker.

I find this way is the most relaxed way to eat for them and causes no issues.(I feed a few dogs at a time, so this way works for me and causes least tension between the dogs) 



> I would often ruffle her head after putting her food down and she wouldn't respond at all (except to keep voraciously eating).


To stop her eating voraciously, put the food bowl on a step so the food is off the ground. Also try a food bowl with sections in it to slow her down.

I would feed her out of the crate as well in an open area.



> She's obviously resource guarding, but why now?


Because what you are doing is elevating her rank by pandering to her needs. It is easier for a pup to be on a lower level than everybody else. 

I always eat my food and feed the dogs after. This is a small signal that i am in control of the resources. As is the techniques above. I use the food to calm the dogs. The method you are using is encouraging the dog to be aggressive. It is hard to explain why, but the actions of the dog speaks for itself.



> But this new behavior out of nowhere is terrifying.





> We're both in tears because we feel like we already give every single minute of our time and effort to this dog.


You need to strengthen up and realize you just have a small pup on your hands and you both can over come the difficulties. It would be better to try some social isolation and distance yourselves from the pup and so let it know it is on a lower level to you the humans. The dog understands this better than the present situation of you trying too hard.

It will then act better and respect you more.


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## ChrisC (Sep 21, 2013)

Not to be defensive, but I think these responses have been off the mark (I'm the husband). I probably didn't explain it in explicit detail when I told my wife the story.

When Morgan growled at me during her flirt pole session, I corrected the growl not the sit. I never punish compliance with obedience. Also, I continued the handling routine to enforce that we get to handle her when we need to (e.g. when she's hurt). In fact, I was pretty proud of her that she got through it despite having an issue. Here is exactly what happened:



I had her sit-stay during a break in play to work on handling.
She growled when I approached her muzzle with my hand for a teeth-check. I immediately corrected her verbally and with a leash check.
I proceeded to examine her teeth, which she wasn't thrilled about but allowed.
When I moved to the ear and paw exam, she broke her stay and lunged for the toy, so I corrected her again, repositioned her, reset, and completed the handling routine: teeth (again), eyes, ears, paws, tail.
We went inside and I crated her briefly (2 minutes) to clean the yard.

This was not the first time we performed an obedience exercise in the middle of a game. In fact, I do it regularly. I like to mix play and training because a) I get to use play as a special reward, and b) I want to get her accustomed to the idea that she should be obedient at any time. Maybe she's too young, but it had never been a problem previously.

As for doling her food, again, our concern is how fast she eats. We don't want her to get bloat. Morgan eats 1.5 cups of dry kibble in less than 10 seconds. This was the case from the very beginning; we didn't encourage fast eating by feeding her slowly. It got so bad that we started the dole _and_ got all new dishes to address the issue. First we tried elevating her food, which had no effect. Now we use a slow-food dish, which makes it maybe 20 seconds per portion, but it would probably be 30 seconds if we gave it to her all at once.

I should also say that we don't pander to her needs for food. When we serve her, we have her sit-stay while we prepare a portion. Then we will sit in a chair with the portion in our lap or whatever--someplace clearly in our control--until she is quiet and makes good eye contact. At that point we release her stay and have her settle in her crate. There has never been a single issue with mealtime (except the speed eating, which we addressed) until this morning. That includes last night after the incident with the flirt pole.

Our trainer, who specializes in treating dog aggression, suggested that we feed her on-leash, in portions, and call her away from the food periodically. I don't know if it's going to work, but it made lunch much safer if nothing else and she didn't direct any aggression at us. All I can say about the trainer is that he has come highly recommended by at least 4 vets as well as our neighbors, a coworker with an aggressive dog, and just about everyone else in town who we've talked to about dog training (like pet store employees and patrons). "Our town" having a population of 250,000, that's not a trivial recommendation.

I don't know if this all sounds harsh or overly strict or whatever, but I can say for certain that social distancing and other motivational techniques to put her on a lower level don't work on this dog. She comes from a working line, she's very willful and has no reaction to taste or noise. Leaving the room, being a tree, shaker cans, holding the muzzle, hand on the back of the head, calming signals--all the techniques recommended in literature (e.g. the art of raising a puppy) or by trainers and vets--are ineffective on Morgan. We've been told she would be perfect for law enforcement because no suspect would be able to deter her.

Maybe we do need to become mentally tougher or whatever, but I don't know if we are adequately expressing the suddenness of the change. When I brought my puppy in from her walk this morning to give her breakfast, I knew her implicitly. After breakfast, I feel like I don't know this dog. It was like a switch flipped.

I don't know; this is long. I guess my point is that we've either previously tried or already incorporated most of the suggestions into our routine. The only thing we definitely do differently from the feedback is feed her in doles. If it's okay for a 19-week-old puppy to eat a cup and a half of food in 30 seconds or less, then maybe we can stop with the portioning.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I can only give my opinion on what "I" would do in your situation.

The flirt pole incident, it sounds like the flirt pole was pretty close to her when you decided to check her teeth/paws etc? I would remove the flirt pole from the scene, stop the game, give her a few mins to chill out, calm down, since she's probably still in an exciteable stage..and then do the "check"..all goes well, go back to the game.

The food ...I personally wouldn't go thru the portion thing, get in the crate routine.

Right now, after her snapping, growling episode..I'd sit there and feed her every single piece BY HAND..Not in the crate. 

No I don't like the idea of her chowing down 1.5 cups in 10 seconds, and she just may be doing it, because of the portion thing your doing.

I'm certainly not saying what your trainer said was "wrong". I am just saying what I would "try". 

It's really hard to say 'what' she's thinking or why she's doing what she's doing. But somewhere along the line she IS becoming guardy and possessive of 'things'.

Puppies CAN change with the flip of a switch, one day they know every command you taught them, the next they look at you like "DUH? HUH?"..

Let me ask you this, how much PRAISE and REWARD does she get for doing "good" things?? Just curious.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Chris, I cannot recommend Mind Games strongly enough. It was recommended to me by a fellow poster, msvette, when I adopted my shelter puppy. This "puppy" is now a year old, not a GSD, but a hound mix - probably beagle/JRT/something. At any rate, he is by far the most challenging dog I have ever owned - including my dog aggressive German Shepherd. He is very snarky. When he first arrived, he resource guarded EVERYTHING - his food, his toys, his crate, his space, his body. 

I started doing Mind Games with him. I did not feed him in his crate. I sat on a stool and made him sit in front of me. I hand fed him every meal. He had to earn every handful. BTW, he also ate very quickly. The commands don't have to be difficult. It can be a sit, or down, a high five, whatever he knows. My dog learned a lot of tricks. Sometimes, he had to touch his nose to my hand, beg, roll over. Wait and watch were two very important ones. I would tell him to wait and put the food in his bowl. He wasn't allowed to eat it, until I said so. Other times, he couldn't touch the food until he made eye contact and touched my hand. 

We also did the 30 minute downstay every day. 

It sounds like you really love your boy, but it doesn't sound like he is earning all that love you are smothering him with. Make him work for it.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Here is the link. It worked WONDERS for my dog. You can do all of the steps, or modify it to your needs. With resource guarding, I always trade, never take. They resource guard, because they "think" you are going to take something away. Even removing the bowl to add food, you were taking his bowl. Leave the bowl in place and put the food in the bowl, or have him eat out of your hand. My dog no longer gobbles his food either.

Good luck! This is fixable.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Thank you Jakoda. You're correct, the flirt pole was close to her, which was probably a mistake. Putting it up (she understands that when it's on the table, we're not playing for now) and then doing the check is a good idea.

Just to clarify, 1.5 cups in 10 seconds was before we started portioning and what led us to portion in the first place. She's much better now that we break it up into smaller chunks, but of course that was before the guarding. I should also mention that we have always fed her the last quarter cup or so by hand. We fed her probably half a cup by hand this afternoon, after following our trainer's advice, which she took with no problem. I think we'll try doing most if not all of it by hand for now. 

She gets LOTS of praise for good and we always try to set her up to succeed. If she's having a rough time with something, like returning the ball during fetch or something, we redirect to another game where we can give her praise and reward. We use "yes" (single action), "good" (keep doing that) and treats and affection. She more motivated by treats or toys than affection, but we always do both. And always a very upbeat and happy voice when praising ("Good, Morgan, GOOD, very good, good girl!")


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> our concern is how fast she eats. We don't want her to get bloat. Morgan eats 1.5 cups of dry kibble in less than 10 seconds.


Another way to slow down the eating is spread the food all over the garden. But it is just another angle. 

What are the dogs issues in your opinion?

Another thing is maybe it would be better to not use the flirt pole until the dog is older and can mentally handle it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification. You have to understand when we are trying to help with behaviors without seeing the dog over this kind of media it is easy to misunderstand and latch onto something we see written down and these things may or may not be relevant to what your situation really is.

But from what you are now describing it sounds like two separate issues now. Is this your first working line pup? A high drive working line pup goes into an almost euphoric state of prey drive especially with a flirt pole. They get stuck in that puppy chase and bite mode and it isn't easy for them, especially when they are young, to go directly from that to full stop calm handling. My current GSD/Malinois mix was like this when he was that age. He also got to be a little terror and threw temper tantrums as he was getting exhausted or around the time he needed a nap. That incident was probably no big deal, just keep in mind it takes a bit of time to bring them down off that euphoria of the chase. Also the working line pups tend to be biters anyway. The GSD/Malinois made me bleed a lot. I don't think it's possible to raise any kind of GSD or Malinois from a working line without bleeding a bit. The good working line dogs make you bleed.

As for the bowl guarding. You could always do like I ended up doing and just get rid of the bowl. I handfeed my dog while he does his ringsport obedience routine. Every handful of food he eats is earned. If he was to show food aggression over my hand (that would just be weird) then I just would correct him sternly and not feed him the rest of that day or anytime he showed that behavior. Stevenzachsmom has already suggested this and it works. I didn't actually use this method because of guarding aggression but just because he does a ton of training and engagement work and it just works out that he gets almost all his meals while doing that, so why not all of them?


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Thank you very much everyone for responding. Chris is reading over my shoulder while I monopolize the computer but we're going to try to run away a bit and get something to eat. I'm sorry my initial post was rather haphazard. We were both pretty shaken to see this behavior when we thought we had been successfully increasing our bond and trust with her. He'll come back and post more cogently later.  Thank you again for the advice. It is not only our first working line pup but our first pup at all, which has been a challenge. It was disconcerting to feel like we were finally starting to get the hang of it and then seeing it turn so quickly.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

I was pretty much in your position four years ago with my first working line GSD (and first puppy I raised by myself). He also began resource guarding his food at about that age, and I also had been feeding him in his crate. He also unfortunately extended the food guarding to guarding his crate in general.

I agree with Stevezachsmom. You need to begin reteaching her that people around her food bowl bring good things. People add good things, they don't take. Stop taking her bowl away until her meal is finished. While she is eating, give her something better than what she has (cheese, hot dog, chicken).

You can also do what Baillif suggested, which is using her food for training. She will be physically unable to guard it, and you'll get extra training time in. But beware that this will not stop her guarding the bowl, it only manages the behavior. When you plunk a bowl of food in front of her, she'll still want to guard it unless you do what is suggested above and teach her that you bring good things when she is eating.

I've learned more than I ever thought I needed to know about resource guarding thanks to my dog. Resource guarding is not about lack of respect, or alpha/dominance bull. Guarding is a natural instinct for dogs (the dog who protects his resources survives) which can be inadvertently encouraged, such as taking the dog's bowl away or pestering them while they're eating. Act on it quickly, and you can turn her around at this young age!  I totally understand your feelings, as I felt exactly the same when my puppy started growling at me. It was shocking, frustrating, disappointing, and crushing that my puppy was acting that way, and I wish I had known now what I knew then.

Regarding how fast she is eating, obviously handfeeding/training with her food will force her to eat slower by default, since she'll only be getting one piece at a time. If slow-feed bowls aren't working, you can also try a muffin pan. The best slow-feed bowl I've used so far is the Skid-Stop.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's the other thing Twobigears pretty much brought up. A high drive working line dog retains more of his/her survival instincts and is a little more "wild animal" than your average domestic dog. They'll show it sometimes. You have to embrace that side of them and fulfill those instincts in order to keep them happy. Working line dogs want to work.

Ever see that scene in Jurassic Park where they were feeding the chained up goat to the T-rex? He doesn't want to be fed he wants to hunt! It is kind of like that.

They love working to get what they want, and it is why the working line dogs that are a little bat**** insane are used in the ring sports. They work harder and longer to access rewards than other dogs. I know several ringsport trainers that buy and sell dogs and keep multiple ones in various stages of training just looking for that special kind of high drive crazy they need to get to the winners pedestal.

You guys sound like you picked a tough first puppy to raise, but that kind of dog can be a **** of a lot of fun.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think your on the right track and have gotten alot of great suggestions..

And I agee with Baillif,,I LOVE those tough challenging puppies/dogs, it has lots of rewards for US when they mature and things 'click'..lots of fun as well.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think you should be able to handle your dog no matter
what's laying near her (leash , collar, favorite toy, treat,
food, etc.). i think an immediate correction when she barked,
nipped was due. then repeat whatever you were doing.

some dogs eat fast and i don't know if that's good or bad for
them. in the wild how fast do animals eat? when my dog was 
a pup i fed him 1 cup 3x's a day. whenever i fed him i gave
him 1 cup plus toppings. i didn't feed him 1/2 a cup, let him
eat it then feed 1/2 a cup.



WendyM said:


> >>>>> Thank you Jakoda. You're correct, the flirt pole was close to her, which was probably a mistake. Putting it up (she understands that when it's on the table, we're not playing for now) and then doing the check is a good idea.<<<<<
> 
> Just to clarify, 1.5 cups in 10 seconds was before we started portioning and what led us to portion in the first place. She's much better now that we break it up into smaller chunks, but of course that was before the guarding. I should also mention that we have always fed her the last quarter cup or so by hand. We fed her probably half a cup by hand this afternoon, after following our trainer's advice, which she took with no problem. I think we'll try doing most if not all of it by hand for now.
> 
> She gets LOTS of praise for good and we always try to set her up to succeed. If she's having a rough time with something, like returning the ball during fetch or something, we redirect to another game where we can give her praise and reward. We use "yes" (single action), "good" (keep doing that) and treats and affection. She more motivated by treats or toys than affection, but we always do both. And always a very upbeat and happy voice when praising ("Good, Morgan, GOOD, very good, good girl!")


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> i think you should be able to handle your dog no matter
> what's laying near her (leash , collar, favorite toy, treat,
> food, etc.)


And I would agree with you, but with a young high drive puppy in high states of prey drive you need to transition the puppy out of that drive state first. Either with some sort of cue or the absence of activity to allow the puppy to calm down.

There is a fairly good chance the portioning method used was probably what started to trigger the guarding behavior in the first place. I can understand why you guys did it, but a better method is to raise the dish and use a sectioned off dish to slow the eating. When is the last time that puppy was dewormed? I had puppies that used to eat voraciously and it turns out tapeworms were causing it, despite a negative test at the vet.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

with training you should be able to handle your dog in
any/most situations and the distraction doesn't matter.
i think you're saying the same thing.



doggiedad said:


> i think you should be able to handle your dog no matter what's laying near her (leash , collar, favorite toy, treat,
> food, etc.). i think an immediate correction when she barked,
> nipped was due. then repeat whatever you were doing.
> 
> ...





Baillif said:


> >>>>> And I would agree with you, but with a young high drive puppy in high states of prey drive you need to transition the puppy out of that drive state first. Either with some sort of cue or the absence of activity to allow the puppy to calm down.<<<<<
> 
> There is a fairly good chance the portioning method used was probably what started to trigger the guarding behavior in the first place. I can understand why you guys did it, but a better method is to raise the dish and use a sectioned off dish to slow the eating. When is the last time that puppy was dewormed? I had puppies that used to eat voraciously and it turns out tapeworms were causing it, despite a negative test at the vet.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> with training you should be able to handle your dog in
> any/most situations and the distraction doesn't matter.
> i think you're saying the same thing.


You don't take a dog off the bite and immediately inspect its teeth without letting it calm down. It's not about distraction. It's about the state of mind the dog is in. If you have never experienced a high drive puppy working in prey, you have no idea. 



To the OP:

With age comes the ability to cap drive, and through careful training later in life, you should be able to do this sort of thing. I would still advise that you let the dog calm down a bit, and start with a less pointy part of the dog. You are putting a lot of stress on the puppy doing this, and he doesn't know how to handle it yet.

I understand your desire to have the ability to inspect the dog under any circumstances, but it just doesn't work that way. Military dogs are rigorously inspected every day, and handlers get bit when inspecting or treating a dog that is injured. I have a good friend that had his hand split in 2 when checking his dog after a firefight. The dog was hit in the leg and the handler didn't know it. 

You have received some good advice on food guarding. I would hand feed until the problem is gone, and then leave your dog alone while it eats. Some people feel the need to mess with their dog's food. I don't.

Good luck, and enjoy that puppy!

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

TwoBigEars said that guarding has nothing to do with rank. Leerburg says different, that any time a dog guards anything from you then it doesn't respect you as a leader. 


To me leerburg's way makes sense. Who's right?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if my dog is chewing on a bone i can open his mouth and take
the bone and put my hand in his mouth. if he's eating dinner i can place
my hand in his bowl or rub his mouth. i guess training is different for a high drive dog.



David Winners said:


> You don't take a dog off the bite and immediately inspect its teeth without letting it calm down. It's not about distraction. It's about the state of mind the dog is in. If you have never experienced a high drive puppy working in prey, you have no idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> TwoBigEars said that guarding has nothing to do with rank. Leerburg says different, that any time a dog guards anything from you then it doesn't respect you as a leader.
> 
> To me leerburg's way makes sense. Who's right?


Fearful, insecure dogs also resource guard - that would have nothing to do with rank or leadership, it's about trust.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> if my dog is chewing on a bone i can open his mouth and take
> the bone and put my hand in his mouth. if he's eating dinner i can place
> my hand in his bowl or rub his mouth. i guess training is different for a high drive dog.


You can do that with high drive dogs too, what we are saying is when you are playing games or bitework that involves working the dog into a state of prey drive such as with a flirt pole (which the OP was doing) you can't just expect to handle the puppy immediately, especially messing with the mouth area. It is pretty much the same way for the adult dogs. If you let your high drive dog bite someone either in a suit sleeve or on the job as a k9 unit or whatever, you have to always be very mindful of the dog redirecting that bite onto you unintentionally when you pull them off the bite and start the transition back down to a calm state. Drive capping he was mentioning involves placing some control on those instincts and drives so that the dog can continue to take orders while in high states of drive, too high a state of drive and the dog gets tunnel vision on the target and won't pay attention to other stimuli.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Fearful, insecure dogs also resource guard - that would have nothing to do with rank or leadership, it's about trust.


This. You have to keep in mind Frawley from Leerburg is old school, and while he has started to come around more towards the positive/balanced reinforcement schools with trainers like Michael Ellis, he holds onto a lot of that old school baggage. Some of it is useful some of it not so much. He has probably changed his position on that anyway. He would not take food from a dog and if a dog resource guards its food from him he doesn't even bother to fight the dog on it he feeds it in the crate from then on out. Now if he really thought resource guarding was about leadership why would he fail to force his will on the dog? Wouldn't that be a failure of leadership? Some of his articles on there are quite old anyway, and don't necessarily reflect his current opinions anymore.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, some stuff is outdated, some of it contradicts other articles. 

But I don't see him not challenging his dog, I've seen him recommend it to others and I understand why, someone writes me with a problem like this i'd be very careful recommending 'fighting' their dog on it. Lots of problems can come out of this. 

But I doubt he himself wouldn't straighten it out. 

Also, since we are always looking to what happens with wolves in the wild, I can't see a wolf guarding anything from the leader, the leader can take anything they want whenever they want.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I don't see him not challenging his dog,.....i'd be very careful recommending 'fighting' their dog on it. Lots of problems can come out of this.


When a dog does challenge you, you just know something is going wrong somewhere. If a dog growls at me I take that as a warning. Sometimes you need to step back and realize whats happening. Where is the problem. If a dog is resource guarding you need to be really careful. Sometimes a touch at that time will trigger a bite. Doesn't mean the dog is vicious, but just it's working on instincts, rather than it's training.

If it ever happens me I would look at the whole picture and see where the modification needs to take place. It is not just about food. The issue is deeper. It may be the dog not knowing it's rank or having some confusion as the humans are treating it inappropriately, or it can be the insecurity etcetc. All dogs are different as is the way everybody interacts with dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> if my dog is chewing on a bone i can open his mouth and take
> the bone and put my hand in his mouth. if he's eating dinner i can place
> my hand in his bowl or rub his mouth. i guess training is different for a high drive dog.


Here is a good example. This is Jasmine, a friend of mine from VLK. Her dog is sweet as can be. She can do literally anything to that dog without every worrying about it hurting her, including all the things you listed. In this video, she is in a bad position when she outs him, and he nails her on the leg. It's because the dog is in drive. It is her fault, not the dog's.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/alpha-dogs/videos/big-bite/


Resource guarding can come from several things from possessiveness, insecurity, natural tendencies...

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

So in the wild a wolf will guard from a leader?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> So in the wild a wolf will guard from a leader?


Don't know. Never trained one. Most of us deal with dogs, which haven't been wolves in thousands of years. To add to that, most of what we thought we knew about wolves is incorrect, leading to any behavior theories based on those studies to be faulty.

David Winners


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> So in the wild a wolf will guard from a leader?


A dog is not a wolf. A dog has wild instincts but it is domesticated and very flexible. When they are young or depending on treatment, the wilder side can be seen.

Wild dogs act as a pack and often share food, and the alpha pair sometimes feed first or sometimes the dogs will eat loads together and then go and regurgitate it for the young back in the den. They work together. If males or females challenge the alpha pair they can be killed or run out of the pack.

It is never a simple answer is it.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

Dogs are not wolves. People are not wolves. Interspecies communication is vastly different than same-species communication. Do you growl at your dog or use your ears or tail to communicate with him? And as David said, the original studies that we base most of our "dogs = wolves" knowledge have been proven incorrect, even by the original study authors. Dogs do not want to "dominate" us.

As I said, resource guarding is not about challenging or leadership or lack of respect. Resource guarding is _instinct_. The dog who protects his resources survives. Guarding can occur due to insecurity or accidental training/encouraging of the guarding. Dogs have to be taught that people around their resources are a _good_ thing, not a threat who just takes, takes, takes.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Don't know. Never trained one. Most of us deal with dogs, which haven't been wolves in thousands of years. To add to that, most of what we thought we knew about wolves is incorrect, leading to any behavior theories based on those studies to be faulty.
> 
> David Winners


I was waiting for this answer. Exactly, a dog is not a wolf. So then you either look at wolves to explain dogs behavior always (pack leaders, etc) or never. 

I don't think you get to choose when to look at them and when not to, because then it becomes meaningless


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Yes, some stuff is outdated, some of it contradicts other articles.
> 
> But I don't see him not challenging his dog, I've seen him recommend it to others and I understand why, someone writes me with a problem like this i'd be very careful recommending 'fighting' their dog on it. Lots of problems can come out of this.
> 
> ...


I have about 5 minutes worth of footage from his dealing with dominant dogs dvd which was last redone in 2010 where I heard what I was saying from his own mouth. Buy the dvd if you really want to confirm that.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I have about 5 minutes worth of footage from his dealing with dominant dogs dvd which was last redone in 2010 where I heard what I was saying from his own mouth. Buy the dvd if you really want to confirm that.


I believe you)))))) I just can't believe him doing this with his dogs for some reason. 

I do believe him giving out that advice because I read him do it on his website. In some cases. 

In others he'd say it's a pack structure issue and to go back to basics with establishing pack order. 

The cases where he said to leave it alone was an old aggressive dog and I think he said it wasn't worth the battle. Don't remember for sure.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> I was waiting for this answer. Exactly, a dog is not a wolf. So then you either look at wolves to explain dogs behavior always (pack leaders, etc) or never.
> 
> I don't think you get to choose when to look at them and when not to, because then it becomes meaningless


Look at it this way:

Without knowing the answer, we can make an educated assumption that the amount of real world data collected concerning the behavior of domesticated dogs exponentially outweighs that which we have collected about wolves. Why point to a vastly inferior source of information for answers?

Comparing the 2 is novel and interesting, but lends little to modern day dog training and behavior.

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Look at it this way:
> 
> Without knowing the answer, we can make an educated assumption that the amount of real world data collected concerning the behavior of domesticated dogs exponentially outweighs that which we have collected about wolves. Why point to a vastly inferior source of information for answers?
> 
> ...


Exactly!!! So why all the pack stuff? Not the alpha dominant stuff, but the rank order and such. 

I'm not even saying that I don't believe it, it actually makes some sense. I just don't understand who decides when we fall back on the wolves and when we say that a dog is not a wolf. 

You seem to understand how I think lol so I'm sure you understand that to me this is unacceptable))))) pick one or the other (not you personally)


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I was waiting for this answer. Exactly, a dog is not a wolf. So then you either look at wolves to explain dogs behavior always (pack leaders, etc) or never.
> 
> I don't think you get to choose when to look at them and when not to, because then it becomes meaningless


In the wild wolves don't eat with much of a pecking order at all. I challenge you guys to find footage of them around a kill eating in a nice orderly manner according to pecking order. It doesn't exist. They just dive right in and rip the thing apart. If you ever watch them around a kill they will guard from each other when hungry enough, and even the alpha isn't secure from becoming a target of aggression if he crosses certain lines, especially during leaner times. The alpha status isn't so black and white that the alpha male or female can just run willy nilly over the top of everyone. Even among wolves there is a lot of give and take to get along. This is the result of wolves not being that far apart in terms of strength speed or aggression when it comes to the alpha and the rest of the pack. They also have an inborn sense of justice. Dogs do too. If you ever want to test this take two dogs that both know the same set of tricks and then have them do those tricks but only feed one of them. See how long it takes for the one that doesn't get fed to protest, quit working altogether, or walk away in disgust. 

For instance. You always hear only the alpha pair mates. This is definitely not true. There are tons of documented cases where lower ranking males mated as much if not more than the alpha ranked male in the same pack. 

One of the most prolific bred wolves in yellowstone was a wolf that spent the majority of his time as a non alpha male and would even mate with the females from other packs when he was a loner because he learned he could use the roads that all the other wolves were afraid to go near as a safe zone when they caught him doing it. That same wolf stayed beta to one of his brothers from his litter and basically performed all the duties of an alpha and had most of the benefits of an alpha status while not actually being the alpha. He eventually just wandered off and started his own pack formed from stray males and eventually females and lived to be 10 years old despite breaking most every rule in the "dominance" handbook. That is the other thing. An overbearing alpha wolf will find himself losing his top packmates to them leaving to start their own packs, that or finding himself dying as he loses a step and gets overthrown by a younger stronger wolf that has finally had enough


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I believe you)))))) I just can't believe him doing this with his dogs for some reason.
> 
> I do believe him giving out that advice because I read him do it on his website. In some cases.
> 
> ...


He is a believer in the fact that messing with a dogs food is usually what causes the food aggression issues in the first place. That said he has said he would never do it. He is a firm believer in doing ground work with puppies and dogs in such a way that they do not claim toys. He wouldn't leave toys around so that the dog could become possessive of them, and regardless of that you've seen the Michael Ellis stuff on how we play with dogs in such a way that avoids the dog becoming possessive of the toy anyway. The dog doesn't give a crap about the toy itself he cares about the toy+the interaction with the human. The dog wouldn't guard it from you he would be punching you with it to get you to play.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Exactly!!! So why all the pack stuff? Not the alpha dominant stuff, but the rank order and such.
> 
> I'm not even saying that I don't believe it, it actually makes some sense. I just don't understand who decides when we fall back on the wolves and when we say that a dog is not a wolf.
> 
> You seem to understand how I think lol so I'm sure you understand that to me this is unacceptable))))) pick one or the other (not you personally)


I don't fall back on wolves, ever. I will if I ever have the chance to train one. I don't believe in alpha, dominant stuff. I believe in leadership and in having a 2 way relationship with dogs. I use my bigger brain (than the dog) to manipulate its behavior by capitalizing on its basic needs and wants to increase behavior I like and extinguish behavior I don't. This includes listening to the dog, and successfully communicating my instructions as well. That's the hard part.

David Winners


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> He is a believer in the fact that messing with a dogs food is usually what causes the food aggression issues in the first place. That said he has said he would never do it. He is a firm believer in doing ground work with puppies and dogs in such a way that they do not claim toys. He wouldn't leave toys around so that the dog could become possessive of them, and regardless of that you've seen the Michael Ellis stuff on how we play with dogs in such a way that avoids the dog becoming possessive of the toy anyway. The dog doesn't give a crap about the toy itself he cares about the toy+the interaction with the human. The dog wouldn't guard it from you he would be punching you with it to get you to play.


Yes, he does believe that. So how this prove that he's wrong about this being a rank issue?

He does believe in laying the foundation, his foundation laying is all about establishing himself as the leader. 

So it seems like his way works and he never had to mess with the dogs' food because they all know he's the leader and don't challenge him. 

I took this as if he ever had guarding problems he'd go back to beginning and lay the foundation.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif, 

Cool info on the wolves. Thanks for sharing that.

David Winners


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I don't fall back on wolves, ever. I will if I ever have the chance to train one. I don't believe in alpha, dominant stuff. I believe in leadership and in having a 2 way relationship with dogs. I use my bigger brain (than the dog) to manipulate its behavior by capitalizing on its basic needs and wants to increase behavior I like and extinguish behavior I don't. This includes listening to the dog, and successfully communicating my instructions as well. That's the hard part.
> 
> David Winners



100% this.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol I watched the documentaries as well. I know that not just alpha mates. 

So back to the question, do we look at wolves? If we do then I will research their behavior and reply.

Or do we agree that dogs are not wolves and stop using them as an example when it's convenient and there are no other arguments. 



Baillif said:


> In the wild wolves don't eat with much of a pecking order at all. I challenge you guys to find footage of them around a kill eating in a nice orderly manner according to pecking order. It doesn't exist. They just dive right in and rip the thing apart. If you ever watch them around a kill they will guard from each other when hungry enough, and even the alpha isn't secure from becoming a target of aggression if he crosses certain lines, especially during leaner times. The alpha status isn't so black and white that the alpha male or female can just run willy nilly over the top of everyone. Even among wolves there is a lot of give and take to get along. This is the result of wolves not being that far apart in terms of strength speed or aggression when it comes to the alpha and the rest of the pack. They also have an inborn sense of justice. Dogs do too. If you ever want to test this take two dogs that both know the same set of tricks and then have them do those tricks but only feed one of them. See how long it takes for the one that doesn't get fed to protest, quit working altogether, or walk away in disgust.
> 
> For instance. You always hear only the alpha pair mates. This is definitely not true. There are tons of documented cases where lower ranking males mated as much if not more than the alpha ranked male in the same pack.
> 
> One of the most prolific bred wolves in yellowstone was a wolf that spent the majority of his time as a non alpha male and would even mate with the females from other packs when he was a loner because he learned he could use the roads that all the other wolves were afraid to go near as a safe zone when they caught him doing it. That same wolf stayed beta to one of his brothers from his litter and basically performed all the duties of an alpha and had most of the benefits of an alpha status while not actually being the alpha. He eventually just wandered off and started his own pack formed from stray males and eventually females and lived to be 10 years old despite breaking most every rule in the "dominance" handbook. That is the other thing. An overbearing alpha wolf will find himself losing his top packmates to them leaving to start their own packs, that or finding himself dying as he loses a step and gets overthrown by a younger stronger wolf that has finally had enough


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I don't fall back on wolves, ever. I will if I ever have the chance to train one. I don't believe in alpha, dominant stuff. I believe in leadership and in having a 2 way relationship with dogs. I use my bigger brain (than the dog) to manipulate its behavior by capitalizing on its basic needs and wants to increase behavior I like and extinguish behavior I don't. This includes listening to the dog, and successfully communicating my instructions as well. That's the hard part.
> 
> David Winners


You personally might not. I did say this was not towards you personally. 

I hear the words pack and pack leader way too often, on the forum as well.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd look at it this way. Your dog knows you are not a dog. Dogs don't incorporate us into a pack structure exactly like they do other dogs. They don't mistake us for being a two legged version of a dog. That's why there is a very clear distinction with dogs who are dog aggressive but not people aggressive or people aggressive but not dog aggressive. They know the difference.

So when Frawley or anybody else for that matter is doing a groundwork routine to establish themselves as a "pack leader" what you are essentially doing is controlling resources in such a way that the dog begins to have an expectation of how he should act under certain circumstances to get what he wants, or to avoid receiving undesirable results. The dog is acting in his own interests not because we have some mystical alpha male status over them.

Essentially we are resource controllers.

Resource Controller doesn't make as good a T-shirt as Pack Leader though.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Except Frawley is using wolves to explain the behavior. For example, he will say that guarding a rank issue. 

Isn't that falling back on the wolves?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I was avoiding going right out and saying it but I'll say this. From what I have seen Frawley is a great businessman. If I had a dog training issue and I could only go to his house to fix it I wouldn't be at his door asking to speak to him. I'd be asking to talk to Cindy. That said Michael Ellis or Ivan Balabanov would be where you wanted to direct your research, and not Frawley. No disrespect to Frawley ofc.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I was avoiding going right out and saying it but I'll say this. From what I have seen Frawley is a great businessman. If I had a dog training issue and I could only go to his house to fix it I wouldn't be at his door asking to speak to him. I'd be asking to talk to Cindy. That said Michael Ellis or Ivan Balabanov would be where you wanted to direct your research, and not Frawley. No disrespect to Frawley ofc.


Well, this does clear it up)))))


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That being said there are a lot of dominance theory trainers out there I still have respect for and respect for what they do, although I might not agree with how or why they do it at all times. Cesar Milan is one of them. Nick Frawley is another. I think overall their effect on the dog training world is a very positive one, and their advice and expertise has saved many a dog people would have otherwise labeled impossible cases.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Wolf and wild dog behavior is closer to dog behavior than human behavior and so is very relevant. It is really interesting to watch documentaries and learn how they hunt and interact. There are generally no certainties as with dogs as all are different in many respects.



> You always hear only the alpha pair mates. This is definitely not true. There are tons of documented cases where lower ranking males mated as much if not more than the alpha ranked male in the same pack.







Check here at 14'30 the beta females fancy an outside male, but he is run out by the alpha pair. No dog will allow another to come and take it's females with out a fight. This pack goes on to get destroyed soon enough though.

If you watch enough nature docs you'll see all kinds of mating behaviors. I seen one can't remember the animal but when the aplpha males were fighting over the females a weaker male was in mating with the females. All animals will take oppourtunity and this is how things evolve sometimes.



> a non alpha male and would even mate with the females from other packs when he was a loner because he learned he could use the roads that all the other wolves were afraid to go near as a safe zone


Maybe the progeny of this lone wolf will be weaker and more likely to gravite towards humans and so loose the ability to survive as a wolf should. 

But In order to survive wolfs need outside blood too. There is some island where the wolfs died due to genetic illnesses caused from inbredding. It is really complecated any ways and it'd be nice to gather together vide.s in another thread.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The Amichien Bonding theory is helpful to any novice dog handler. It does work in establishing respect between dogs and humans and is based on wolf behavior. Similar to CM'smantra of no touch, no talk or no eye contact in initial greetings.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, the reason I like Frawley so much is because everything he says makes sense. Businessman or not, he trained and titled many dogs, he also worked with the really dominant dogs. 

There are small things here and there that don't make sense but I'm sure it's the way I read them. 

I don't have an opinion about wolves and dogs yet, I'm too new to this.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are many paths to the the same or similar results. Despite not being in the dominance school of thought there are techniques from that school of thought that I do occasionally use because they work. 

I think the dominance theory really causes the most harm in cases where people feel the need to strong arm a dog or slam a dog because they feel he is intentionally disobeying and thus "challenging your alpha status." Hurt egos and embarrassed owners start scruffing and alpha rolling or trying to assert their dominance instead of looking towards other issues like whether a behavior is fully generalized, or if the dog is engaged, or if the dog is motivated to perform the behavior properly. In other cases people start thinking just because a puppy or young dog is barking at them or nipping at them it is a challenge to their authority instead of a bored dog just trying to have fun with its owner. You run into that last one a lot.

Not saying there isn't a time where a proper application of Handtronix (popping the dog) is called for, but many times dominance theory can lead to its improper application due to hurt ego.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I think the dominance theory really causes the most harm in cases where people feel the need to strong arm a dog or slam a dog because they feel he is intentionally disobeying and thus "challenging your alpha status." Hurt egos and embarrassed owners start scruffing and alpha rolling or trying to assert their dominance instead of looking towards other issues like whether a behavior is fully generalized, or if the dog is engaged, or if the dog is motivated to perform the behavior properly. In other cases people start thinking just because a puppy or young dog is barking at them or nipping at them it is a challenge to their authority instead of a bored dog just trying to have fun with its owner. You run into that last one a lot.
> 
> Not saying there isn't a time where a proper application of Handtronix (popping the dog) isn't called for, but many times dominance theory can lead to its improper application due to hurt ego.


This, exactly. I find the majority of puppy/dog behavior problems are ascribed to "dominance" due to owner egos or just plain misunderstanding of dog behavior. It's really no surprise either, with dominance theory still being largely propagated.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

As many problems and maybe more are due to Aversion free techniques.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

No argument here. I have prong collars, dominant dog collars, bitter apple spray, and e collar to prove it. Also my handtronix hand is capable of many strength settings. I don't think the dogs respond to aversion because of seeing you as alpha though. They do it because it is escape avoidance of unpleasantness.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

> As many problems and maybe more are due to Aversion free techniques.


Personally, I agree. But dog training is not just an either/or of dominance theory or aversion-free.



> I don't think the dogs respond to aversion because of seeing you as alpha though. They do it because it is escape avoidance of unpleasantness.


You said it better than I could.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Winners said:


> I don't fall back on wolves, ever. I will if I ever have the chance to train one. I don't believe in alpha, dominant stuff. I believe in leadership and in having a 2 way relationship with dogs. I use my bigger brain (than the dog) to manipulate its behavior by capitalizing on its basic needs and wants to increase behavior I like and extinguish behavior I don't. This includes listening to the dog, and successfully communicating my instructions as well. That's the hard part.
> 
> David Winners


:thumbup: For the win!!!!


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## Dbrooke407 (Apr 18, 2013)

WendyM said:


> Hi all,
> We have a huge problem with my 19 week old that just came out of nowhere. Yesterday while my husband was flirting with her, they took a break and he put the flirt down and went to handle her. We practice handling her multiple times a day (let me see your teeth, your ears, your eyes, your paws, etc). She growled and snapped at him in a way that suggested she was guarding the flirt. We thought it might be an isolated incident because she doesn't want to be handled when she's in prey drive mode, which makes some sense.
> 
> She got LOTS of exercise last night and this morning we got up and went out as usual. My husband took her for a walk and it went great. Then he fed her in her crate. We do it exactly the same way all the time. We prepare her food in one bowl and then dole it out in portions in another bowl while she's in her crate. So she sits and waits for us to prepare it, then she settles in the crate, then she gets the food. When the bowl is empty, we take it out (she stays in the crate), put more in, and give it back to her. We have always done this and she's always been perfectly fine. But this morning, she guarded her bowl, even when it was empty and he was putting more in. She barked and actually bit his hand and drew blood. I went in to finish feeding her and she was fine when I gave her her food, but when I went to take the bowl away, she barked and snapped at me. She's obviously resource guarding, but why now? We've been taking her to puppy training and working with her constantly. We exercise her and love on her and she's really been coming along with obeying us more and biting less. But this new behavior out of nowhere is terrifying. She's 45 pounds already and will obviously only get bigger. I know there are things we can work on with guarding, but it worries me that we had already firmly established with her that us being around while she's eating is a GOOD thing. We take the bowl, she gets more food.
> ...


She's resource guarding out of fear you're going to take away what she wants. So don't take it away. Instead when you go to put more food in, out it in another bowl. When you're done using the flirt, give her a toy. Eventually she'll learn that you aren't trying to take away her fun or food and she'll learn to associate you taking the flirt and food bowl with something good happening. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> No argument here. I have prong collars, dominant dog collars, bitter apple spray, and e collar to prove it. Also my handtronix hand is capable of many strength settings. I don't think the dogs respond to aversion because of seeing you as alpha though. They do it because it is escape avoidance of unpleasantness.


In Frawley's defense, he doesn't push the alpha stuff either. He disses the people that call themselves alpha, dominate their dogs or do the alpha rolls and stuff. 

He says you must be the pack leader (as in control all resources) and be a fair one. Let your dog keep his dignity (also his words I think). 

His problems with people messing with dog's food stems from that (that it's not fair to the dog, once you give him the food let him eat in peace).


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Something I feel is important to the conversation is that things can be labeled in a certain way that leads one to draw a conclusion about the source, or relevance, of the information.

Pack behavior leads me to think of wolves, because we call a social group of wolves a pack, when in reality, a more applicable label would be social behavior. Any time 2 or more animals capable of social interaction are in approximation to one another, there will be social behavior. This group will immediately begin to figure out how to interact with one another in a way that is most beneficial to the individuals. Nothing to do with wolves any more than rats.

This enables us to place ourselves in a position to be the benefactor in the relationship with our dogs. They learn that to get what they need out of the relationship, they must behave in a certain manner. This is the basis of NILIF, and why it works. If a dog feels it can get what it wants through means of its own, the trainer is no longer necessary, and is thus of less importance to the dog.

What this doesn't address is the complex relationship that dogs are capable of. This is what separates dogs from wolves, and every other species barring some primates. They want to be with us, for reasons other than air, water, food, and shelter. Dogs have a desire to be with humans and to be accepted by them. This is why praise works with dogs and not with wolves. Dogs look to humans for guidance where wolves do not. This desire can be extinguished through unpleasant experiences, creating avoidance in the dog if compulsion is used too frequently.

So IMHO, the things that make a successful trainer are the ability to manipulate social behavior in such a way as to ensure that the dog sees the trainer as necessary and beneficial (NILIF), the ability to connect with the dog in a meaningful way to establish a bond through the dogs desire to achieve acceptance while not creating avoidance (+R, limited +P), and to successfully communicate how the dog is to behave to receive these things it holds of great importance. Each dog is an individual, and balancing the application of these principles in accordance with the needs of the dog is how we are successful.

David Winners


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Hi all,
Again, thank you very much for the advice. We've stopped feeding her in her crate and are hand feeding a lot of her meal and we haven't seen any sign of guarding or aggression since the one time on Saturday. I agree that we inadvertently caused this behavior, but it was strange to see it not be a problem for so many weeks and then suddenly be a problem on Saturday. 

She's acting again like our normal, rambunctious puppy and we've stopped feeling as wary around her. Our biggest fear is that as novice owners we'll screw her up. I'm sure we have, and will, but there are gradations of that, and turning a sweet dog into an aggressive dog would be our biggest nightmare.



> You guys sound like you picked a tough first puppy to raise, but that kind of dog can be a **** of a lot of fun.


We did, but we didn't know we were doing it. And if we could do it again, we wouldn't. But that being said, we adore this dog. I'm not giving up on her, or giving up on us to do the right things for her. I just sure hope it gets easier someday.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

WendyM said:


> We've stopped feeding her in her crate and are hand feeding a lot of her meal and we haven't seen any sign of guarding or aggression since the one time on Saturday. I agree that we inadvertently caused this behavior, but it was strange to see it not be a problem for so many weeks and then suddenly be a problem on Saturday.


It's possible that there were other signs before the growl, and you just didn't notice until it got to the point where your dog felt a growl was necessary. Other signs might be stiffening, freezing over the bowl, hard eyes/staring, eating faster, raising or stiffening of the tail. There are typically many warning signs before a dog begins to growl, we just often don't notice them until we start to look for them and a growl is the most obvious to us.

Best of luck! Be sure to keep at it, because guarding will not go away in just a few sessions even though it seems to. Personally I would never 100% trust a guarder but maybe I'm overly cautious and I'm sure it would depend on their history. A young puppy like yours who gets re-trained early would certainly be more trustworthy to me than an adult dog who has several years of guarding history. I would just do "maintenance" for the rest of her life and periodically drop her some treats while she's eating or has a valued bone.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

She actually never growled, she barked and then bit. But you're right, there may have been signs we didn't see because she was in her crate and it would have been much harder to see her body language.

I definitely don't consider this problem "solved", but I'm encouraged that changing our behavior has at least temporarily changed hers. We'll continue to watch and monitor her for a long time. It makes me most nervous because I worry about other people feeding her if she's boarded or at the hospital or whatever the case may be. I don't want her to bite someone else because she thinks she needs to guard food.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about if other people feed her. Most likely, they will just put the food in her bowl and leave it. But, you can ask to have that put on her chart at the clinic and also mention that if you should have to board her. Now that you have explained more, that she barked and then bit, I wonder if she was going for the hand and not guarding her bowl, not going for the hand to hurt you, but like going for her flit pole or tug - something to grab at, to catch as it were. It sort of reminds me of another thread way back, where a young (6-7 month old) working line gsd (DDR - I think) jumped at a neighbor girl who wore her hair in a pony tail and of course frightened the owner not the girl very much. I would think if she were resource guarding, this behavior would have shown up with her toys and other items and even you. I do think though that as she matures the prey drive will also. It may help if your future plans for her include Schutzhund so she will not only have an outlet for her talent and energy but will be trained in control.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

She doesn't guard her toys, but she doesn't always want to give back something she has that she knows you want. So, for example, if she grabs a shoe she knows she's not supposed to have, she'll parade around with it, and if you try to get it, she'll run. The first couple of times we gave her a bully stick, she did the same thing. But the last two times (which are both since this incident with her food) she's fine with us coming near her and even having her drop her bully stick. But her reaction when she wants to keep what she has is to run with it, not to hunker down and growl or bite. I wondered if she bit because she felt trapped in her crate and she couldn't run. It's weird that she would bark and snap at both of us during the same meal when she had never done that before, though. 

In terms of guarding us, she's never done that, but she has developed a non-typical separation anxiety. She doesn't care what we do when she's home - we can leave her alone, my husband and I can walk out of the room or the house separately or together, either of us can take her out alone, etc. But when we're out in public, even if it's on our street, if we both start out with her, she does NOT like it if one of us walks away. She yelps and cries and won't focus on the person she's still with. It was strange because ever since she was 11 weeks old, we've taken her to stores frequently and one of us goes inside and one stays outside with her and it was never a problem. I couldn't figure out what changed, but then I remembered that a couple of weeks ago when she got sick we had to leave her at the hospital overnight. After we got her home, we both stayed home with her a few days, and then took only neighborhood walks for another week or so. I think that may have gotten her out of the habit of us being apart, so we'll have to keep working on it. We've been taking her to parks and such and one of us will walk back to the car to get something while the other continues to engage her. 

We've been talking about getting her into Schutzhund. We don't have any personal interest in it, and weren't anticipating making that kind of time commitment, but it may be necessary for our dog to be mentally healthy.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

My dog does that too, only outside. I was told it's herding instinct. It's really bad, he ran out of the park and on to the street once to follow my daughter. Or if leashed he will yelp and lunge, hysterical and loud. 
We don't separate outside anymore


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Yep, she yelps and lunges when the person leaves. But we're going to keep doing it. She has to get used to the idea that we're not always going to stay right next to each other when we go out. When one person leaves, the other tries to keep her distracted. And when the person returns, we have her sit and wait for them instead of lunging to get to them. It's a very slow work in progress right now, but we're going to keep doing it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

WendyM said:


> Yep, she yelps and lunges when the person leaves. But we're going to keep doing it. She has to get used to the idea that we're not always going to stay right next to each other when we go out. When one person leaves, the other tries to keep her distracted. And when the person returns, we have her sit and wait for them instead of lunging to get to them. It's a very slow work in progress right now, but we're going to keep doing it.


Lol we still separate as well. I should've said we don't separate if we can avoid it. 
We were able to get the separation squared out (like if we distract him or make him sit like you do though I still leash him if she's leaving from the park) but we still can't get him to walk normal when one of us walks behind or in the front. 

Also, I don't think he can ever be trusted not to run after one of us off leash




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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

> I had her sit-stay during a break in play to work on handling.
> She growled when I approached her muzzle with my hand for a teeth-check. I immediately corrected her verbally and with a leash check.
> I proceeded to examine her teeth, which she wasn't thrilled about but allowed.
> When I moved to the ear and paw exam, she broke her stay and lunged for the toy, so I corrected her again, repositioned her, reset, and completed the handling routine: teeth (again), eyes, ears, paws, tail.
> ...


I want to start off by saying, I don't know you, your dog, or your trainer personally, and I may be completely wrong since I've never seen your actual situation in person. However, based on what you are saying, I'm concerned about the type of training that you are doing with such a young puppy. I'm not sure why there would be leash corrections with a 5 month old puppy? At this age, I would be focusing on building a positive relationship based on trust. She should see you as the giver of all good things! She should feel relaxed, confident, and happy around you. I would never be using leash corrections for what you are describing at this age. Taking a 5 month old puppy and leash correcting her for not being able to control her impulses around a very stimulating object seems like too much. 

If you don't know how to train with positive reinforcement with something as influenceable as a 5 month old puppy, then my concern is that your timing and knowledge of how to appropriately give corrections is not 100%. It takes a lot of skill and timing to learn these things. I honestly think most people need to start with 100% food/toy based training and then go from there. Once you build your skills, introducing the thoughtful use of aversives may be very helpful in some situations. I also agree that I'm pretty sure she was giving you lots of body language before any issues ever occur with guarding. 

Finally, one of the major ways that dogs are always learning is through something called classical conditioning. If you frequently stop her play to do obedience which isn't always fun, then she may begin to build an unpleasant association with stopping play/obedience training/handling work/you. If she doesn't like it, she will learn to growl/bite since that's how they communicate. She is not being "bad" or "mean", she is just a puppy who is trying to tell you the only way how that she is stressed. If you punish her, she will not learn to be any happier in this situation. It will also not make your relationship any better. 

I would stop focusing on correcting the symptom (growl, bite) and instead focus on fixing the actual problem which is her underlying emotional state in certain situations, you can fix it through appropriate training. This way you have a happy dog who doesn't resource guard and who loves and trusts you.

In summary, I would get a different trainer. One who has credentials and or higher education in canine behavior. One who would never suggest using leash corrections during handling training or leash corrections for trying to play with a toy after a fun play session. One who has experience in working with young dogs who might have a tendency to resource guard whether through genetics or early environment. 

I say all this because I want the best for you and your new puppy. I hope this helps!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> But when we're out in public, even if it's on our street, if we both start out with her, she does NOT like it if one of us walks away. She yelps and cries and won't focus on the person she's still with


Dogs do need to get used to this and sounds like your working well in that regard.

What I did sometimes when my dog acted like this is play hide and seek so the dog can go and find the person. You need to have a safe area to do it like a forest or country side. the dog is air scenting and will find the person very quickly

Dogs get used to you splitting up and meeting again as it gets older.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

I think Michelle (mchthorn) gives great advice. And I don't know if calling a dog away from its food is a good way to keep it from resource guarding - lots of people here suggest adding treats to the food bowl rather than taking the dog from food or food from dog - it seems to be a strategy people have good luck with. Hope things get better, just stay positive and you could try using a flirt pole to tire her out a bit before walks. It seems to exhaust Sookie pretty quickly


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

mchcthrn said:


> In summary, I would get a different trainer. One who has credentials and or higher education in canine behavior. One who would never suggest using leash corrections during handling training or leash corrections for trying to play with a toy after a fun play session. One who has experience in working with young dogs who might have a tendency to resource guard whether through genetics or early environment.
> 
> I say all this because I want the best for you and your new puppy. I hope this helps!


Thanks Michelle, I do understand what you're saying and I appreciate it. Just to be clear, our trainer never suggested the leash corrections for this behavior. He did suggest that we handle her multiple times a day, but he did not suggest that we stop play to do it, or that we correct her if she growls for it. This is just something that we started incorporating into her play, and as my husband said, she may be too young for that at this point. Or as others have pointed out, we should have calmed her down more after the play before trying to handle her. One of our big regrets with her is that we're "learning on the job" and we've made a lot of mistakes that we would fix if we had the chance to start over with her. We trust our trainer but we may be applying his techniques wrong because we don't know any better. I often feel that we just generally suck as owners. We have a great dog, and we want the best for her, but we're apparently not very good at it. But we're working on that. And we haven't been calling her away from her food. Instead, after she eats and her bowl is empty, we call her away from the empty bowl (come and then sit) and then she gets hand fed for different actions for each handful. But she gets a big handful for the initial come and sit away from the bowl. We do have the leash on her, but we're not using it at all. It's really just there right now in case she makes a move to bite again, but hopefully we'll phase it out completely soon.


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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

Don't worry about it, dogs are tough . Trust me, my dogs have survived many of my mistakes and they turned out all right! It's always a learning process. I also still learn "on the job" with my dogs all the time.

I would just keep researching and learning. Mine! with Jean Donaldson is a great book on resource guarding. I also love dogstardaily.com for puppy info.

Happy training!


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

WendyM said:


> Thanks Michelle, I do understand what you're saying and I appreciate it. Just to be clear, our trainer never suggested the leash corrections for this behavior. He did suggest that we handle her multiple times a day, but he did not suggest that we stop play to do it, or that we correct her if she growls for it. This is just something that we started incorporating into her play, and as my husband said, she may be too young for that at this point. Or as others have pointed out, we should have calmed her down more after the play before trying to handle her. One of our big regrets with her is that we're "learning on the job" and we've made a lot of mistakes that we would fix if we had the chance to start over with her. We trust our trainer but we may be applying his techniques wrong because we don't know any better. I often feel that we just generally suck as owners. We have a great dog, and we want the best for her, but we're apparently not very good at it. But we're working on that. And we haven't been calling her away from her food. Instead, after she eats and her bowl is empty, we call her away from the empty bowl (come and then sit) and then she gets hand fed for different actions for each handful. But she gets a big handful for the initial come and sit away from the bowl. We do have the leash on her, but we're not using it at all. It's really just there right now in case she makes a move to bite again, but hopefully we'll phase it out completely soon.


You don't suck as owners at all! The fact that you are here shows how much you care and want the best for your pup. I frequently feel like I have made huge mistakes in training when I feel like something isn't going smoothly and then I come here and see what works for other people and modify what I am doing. Even if you have had a dozen amazingly trained dogs, every dog is diffferent and will require you to adapt and adopt new techniques. That's why so many people are always asking questions - because everyone has a lot to learn. This is such a great resource, and I think one of the most important pieces of advice I have read repeatedly is to make training and activities with your pup fun - if something is going well, end on a high note rather than push it - pay attention to your dog and her mood cues to make sure you end on that happy note. Good luck


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

mchcthrn said:


> Don't worry about it, dogs are tough . Trust me, my dogs have survived many of my mistakes and they turned out all right! It's always a learning process. I also still learn "on the job" with my dogs all the time.
> 
> I would just keep researching and learning. Mine! with Jean Donaldson is a great book on resource guarding. I also love dogstardaily.com for puppy info.
> 
> Happy training!


:thumbup: clearly we were typing at the same time


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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

Love it !


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Just feed the dog outside of the crate with the food in a bowl and don't worry about bloat. It is probably more of a genetic thing anyway. It is also probably more important to keep your dog restricted for a while after he/she eats. The hand feeding might contribute to the fast eating because the dog only sees a little food at a time. Put the food in the bowl and let the dog eat in peace.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks to both of you for the encouragement. We do try to keep training fun, which is a lot of the reason we started building training into flirt pole play. She'll do absolutely anything for a chance at the flirt again.  But I think part of the problem is that when she was very young, it was hard to reward her for things. She bit ALL the time and no amount of redirection or leaving the room ever had any effect. Of course we kept playing with her and having fun with things like fetch and whatnot, but it was hard to give her praise because as soon as you'd open your mouth or go to offer a treat, she'd be biting and we couldn't praise for that. We've worked through a lot of that, but it makes me sad that owning her has been more work than fun in general, for us if not for her. She is a fun dog, and sweet and loving, and absolutely brilliant. And she's clearly attached to us and we adore her. We just wish we were able to do a better job making her feel relaxed and happy. And so we soldier on.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Hang in there, puppyhood doesn't last forever it just seems like it sometimes  And yes, it can be a lot of work but it will be all for worth it. And you are not alone - many people feel that way. My Sting (but he is showline) was my first pup and I was prepared for misery. He was an easy pup but saved his mischief all up for his adolescence. Those were a miserable few months. As for your pup being relaxed and happy - yes, she is happy from what you have said, relaxed - I don't think that is a word in her vocabulary - she is a high spirited energetic pup. But, try to relax and enjoy her and don't try so hard on the training. Sometimes easing up is the best. Also, put the biting incident behind you -out of your mind - you had taken steps to change the routine and I do agree with Chip Blasoile to just put the food down let her eat in peace even outside of her crate. If you are concerned about bloat - get one of those slow down dishes and/or use a feeding stand. Dogs especially pups eat fast. For the flit pole - keep hold of it  no putting it down and picking it up - she was all in drive and geared up.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

So can I get her a dictionary so learns the word "relaxed"?  I don't mind her being high energy. I just worry about things like tail chasing or barking that indicate to me she's not at ease. But she IS at ease when we're actively engaged in an activity ... provided neither of her people walk away. I just want her to feel safe and happy. She's a ton of work, but then we get moments like this morning when my husband and I are both in the kitchen doing things and she flops down on the floor and stretches so that her head touches my foot and her back paw touches his. Much too adorable for words. I don't mind how much work she is now, I just want to come out on the other side with a confident, happy, trustworthy dog. I don't want my lack of knowledge to turn her into something less than she should have been, or to cause her to be insecure or guarded. And that's really the crux of why this issue was so concerning to us - WE caused her to feel this way, unintentionally, and we want to make sure we do what we can to correct that. Not just the action, but the feeling behind it.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Delgado never learned to truly relax in the house until about 6 months. Even then it was another 3 months before he did it without being told  Patience and consistency were key


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

WendyM said:


> So can I get her a dictionary so learns the word "relaxed"?  I don't mind her being high energy. I just worry about things like tail chasing or barking that indicate to me she's not at ease.>>
> 
> That is just normal puppy behavior. It becomes abnormal (obsessive compulsive behavior) if it goes on too long.
> 
> ...


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks Mary Beth, I do know we are way too focused on her on how she's doing at any given moment. I think it's because we're so inexperienced and we're worried about making a significant mistake. But that worrying is probably a mistake in and of itself, because it gets translated to her in our interactions. I'll work on it. And then I'll worry that I'm not working on it hard enough.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

You are right, your pup does sense your worrying and that makes her anxious. If it will help, I suggest you repeat to yourself as a mantra when you are worried, the quote from the trainer Turid Rugaas "dogs are forgiving". That means that a mistake, big or small, is not going to harm or ruin the dog forever. If you are not familiar with her books, you may want to start with "On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals" and "Barking: the sound of a language". The books are short and there are also dvds and YouTube has videos. Also try to keep a positive image in your mind. This sounds far fetched, and I thought it was also, but dogs learn by pictures that you think of. When I want my Sting to sit, if I first put the picture in my mind of him sitting, then say the command - he sits promptly. Okay, for an example in your situation. Now, that your pup has nipped when you reached for her bowl, it is normal to be leery and think of that, say when you reach again to touch her. Instead replace that picture with a positive one of reaching for her and she is just looking at you and enjoying her petting. When you and your husband walk her and your husband is going to go off in a different direction and you and your pup are going to continue to walk alone. Put the picture in you mind, your husband going one way, you and your pup going another and she getting a reward for going with you, and that you will both have fun and later on you will all be together again.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks Mary Beth, you recommended both of those books to me on a prior thread and I did get (and read) them both. I'll definitely put the picture of my calm pup walking with me away from my husband in my head. I've now been asked TWICE by security guards (at different places) whether everything's ok because my pup is acting like she's about to die when we've left my husband. They give me very concerned looks like they don't believe me and my dog must be very injured, until she gets distracted by them and tries to maul them ... with her tongue.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Please remember she is a puppy. She may be getting big, but in her head, she's still immature. 

When playing games with a high drive pup, it takes them a bit longer to switch off. If it were me, I'd 'out' the flirt pole and then give the pup a little time to 'de-energize' before I attempted any type of OB. As the pup matures, you can change the game plan.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks Lilie, I totally agree. She's so big and so "aware", for lack of a better word, in some situations, that we tend to forget she's still so young until she acts her age. Someone had a thread in the last day or two that maybe he should make a t-shirt for his dog that said "I'm only five months old" so he would remember and not expect too much from him. I know the feeling! We do remember she's just a puppy, but when she does something well multiple times in a row, we get lulled into thinking that now she's perfect at that thing. But in reality, she's just a pup and may be perfect three times in a row and then imperfect for the next 10. If I've learned nothing else with this dog, it's that progress is not linear. For her or for us.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

WendyM said:


> But in reality, she's just a pup and may be perfect three times in a row and then imperfect for the next 10. If I've learned nothing else with this dog, it's that progress is not linear. For her or for us.


It's like you need to develope dectective skills. When she complied, you had her total focus. Even though her brain is buzzing like a weed wacker, you managed to keep her focused. The remaining 7 times you failed to keep her focused. What changed? What was different? Her little engine brain managed to speed off into a different direction..why? It isn't so much that she intends to speed off in a different direction...she is just wired that way. 

You have the difficult job of figuring out what works for your pup. Take everyone's advice and use it...but don't go in expecting it to work because it worked for another dog. Tweak what you have. See what works for your pup.

An example would be using treats for training. Most folks say the best time to train is when the pup is hungry. But - use treats for a hungry high food drive pup and that pup is going to be like a World War Z Zombie. Only focus it'll have is the source of the treat - nothing you say or do is going to matter. So a high food drive pup is easier to work with AFTER it's meal. When it's little belly isn't screaming over it's little brain. 

Here's the good part - you keep working hard, when your dog matures it is going to be an AWESOME dog. I promise it will be worth all your hard work. You'll be so bonded that it will seem like all you have to do is THINK of a command and your pup will comply...happily.


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## WendyM (Aug 21, 2013)

She's already an awesome dog. She has issues (just like we do) but people have literally stopped their cars in the middle of the road, more than once, to ask questions about her. She's something special, at least to us. We just have to keep working with her.

Morgan has never met a treat or meal she didn't want.  But you're right, there's a difference when she's hungry. When she's hungry, she'll do what you ask, but it's ... jittery, if that makes sense. For example, she'll sit, but she'll just barely touch her but to the ground and then pop back up. It's funny, and adorable, but it doesn't get her the reward. If she's not hungry and you have a treat, she's much better about it. I've just noticed in the last couple of days that she's figured out what to do at doors and street corners. We always have her sit before going through a door and before crossing a street. She's about 50/50 on the street corner, but about 90% at the doors now, without being given a command. It's just fun to watch their brain connect the dots, sometimes while you don't even notice. It wasn't my intent to train her to do it automatically, I just wanted her to do it when I told her to. Guess she figured she'd go ahead and save me the trouble!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lilie said:


> An example would be using treats for training. Most folks say the best time to train is when the pup is hungry. But - use treats for a hungry high food drive pup and that pup is going to be like a World War Z Zombie. Only focus it'll have is the source of the treat - nothing you say or do is going to matter. So a high food drive pup is easier to work with AFTER it's meal. When it's little belly isn't screaming over it's little brain.


I want to expand on this - I have always have food driven dogs, but Halo is off the charts! The nice thing about that was that I could train her just as easily after a meal as I could before a meal, because she was ALWAYS ready to eat! :wild:

BUT, I could also just as readily exploit that food drive by teaching her that the way to get the food was to ignore the food and focus on me instead. The more the dog wants whatever you have, whether it's food or a toy, the easier it is to teach them impulse control around it. She learned very quickly that she could stare at food all day, and she'd never get it. But eye contact, no matter if I was holding the food right in front of her nose - THAT worked!


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