# This really bothers me



## msvette2u

I have an issue with people who purchase a puppy from a pet store.
This puppy is usually coddled, spoiled, treated like a miniature human, but suddenly, around 8-12 mos., the owner suddenly realizes this dog is getting lonesome while they are at work (typically). 
So they start shopping around for _a playmate for this dog. _
But it's not like they decided, OH hey this dog has brought us so much joy, we want another! 
No, they need some disposable mutt to fill the gap and entertain their little miniature human dog. 

But do they go back to the petstore where they got the 1st puppy? No that'd be too expensive! After all, they already paid $1200-2k for a puppy...who has _that_ kind of money?? 

And so they decide to apply to adopt a "playmate for current dog". 

Cynical much? Yeah. 

Why does this bother me so?? 

Possible reasons include...we rescued this dog from a fate worse than death, and don't relish the idea that these folks with a little Princess dog need a cheap mutt for their Princess' entertainment. Or, we'd like people to adopt dogs on their own merit and for what the dog can offer _them_, not their dog!?

I don't know.
Ideas?


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## Gharrissc

So are these people trying to adopt a dog from you? I probably wouldn't adopt out to them if I were in this situation. If I misunderstood your post let me know,but If I am understanding right it doesn't sound like these people will provide balance to the dog. Treating a dog like a 'little human' is not healthy. I may be wrong,but if they don't treat their current dog like a dog,then to me that is a disaster waiting to happen.They will just be calling you in a few months because of problems they caused the adoptive dog to have,but not setting boundaries.


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## harmony

What bothers me is when I get a not so nice message from a mod and my login is messed up, and now I see my name posted to post I didn't even make (u know who u r)! 
I know what ur saying thou, my first shep was from a shelter and 12 yrs after that I got a good one from a breeder too and he was the last one to go, I saved him too!


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## JakodaCD OA

This is OT but


> What bothers me is when I get a not so nice message from a mod and my login is messed up, and now I see my name posted to post I didn't even make (u know who u r)!


what are you talking about?


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## Lilie

msvette2u said:


> No, they need some disposable mutt to fill the gap and entertain their little miniature human dog.
> 
> But do they go back to the petstore where they got the 1st puppy? No that'd be too expensive! After all, they already paid $1200-2k for a puppy...who has _that_ kind of money??
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I can only share my personal experiance with my folks. Both in thier mid-70's. They have a 4 year old, female Poodle / Maltese mix. The treat her like a princess. My father thinks she won't drink unless from bottle water...poured into his hand. He feeds her kibble by hand, piece by piece. My mother thinks she can't walk up stairs and must be carried.
> 
> Honestly, the dog is well behaved. She does get yappy when a bee flies too close to my mother, or a squirrel tries to feed off the bird feeder. But I realized this dog is exactly what my parents made her. She is exactly what they need in a dog. She provides them with what they need in a dog.
> 
> She is friendly with everyone, she allows other dogs in her space (when we visit we'll bring our dogs). She may sulk under a chair, but she doesn't get mouthy or aggressive. She is a social butterfly to all of my parents friends. She is the perfect dog for them.
> 
> And btw - she'll drink out of her own water bowl, I NEVER carried her up the porch stairs and she'll eat out of her dog food bowl. I think she just does those things to make my folks feel needed. She entertains them.
> 
> They considered getting another dog. To rescue instead of purchase (they got her from a byb breeder). They thought it would be good for her to have a canine friend. I talked them out of it. I told them if they want another dog, it would be for them and not her. She doesn't need a canine companion, she has them.


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## Lakl

harmony said:


> What bothers me is when I get a not so nice message from a mod and my login is messed up, and now I see my name posted to post I didn't even make (u know who u r)!
> I know what ur saying thou, my first shep was from a shelter and 12 yrs after that I got a good one from a breeder too and he was the last one to go, I saved him too!


I'm sorry, off topic again, but this poster cracks me up.


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## Lakl

Back on the original topic, I hear people say things like this all the time and it really annoys me. The "We're not home a lot and not spending much time with the dog, so we're looking for another dog to keep him company". Really?? Where is the logic in that??


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## martemchik

A friend of mine purchased from a pet store, gave me all the excuses in the book about how this dog isn't a puppy mill dog (its a yorki-poo) no one breeds those lol. She even claimed the vet ran tests and told her it wasn't a puppy mill dog (this is the same vet that tells her that the dog needs a bordetella vaccine but only once a year). She wanted to go back to the same store to purchase another dog since this one is so great (he's fearful, way over protective/jealous). Dog ended up having knee problems before the age of 1, needed an operation that cost thousands, she realized he's not the best bred dog and wouldn't go back there again. I told her when she's ready for another dog I'll help her find one at a shelter (which I guess in her original search never had a small dog).

Side note...I make fun of that dog all the time, I'm sorry but when your dog weighs 5 lbs I just can't take it seriously. She also doesn't help by dressing him up, not letting him go outside in over 80 degree weather or lower than 60 degree weather, won't let him swim in streams or Lake Michigan (the water is too dirty, but its ok for him to swim in a pool filled with chemicals), she truly believes that a dogs happiness is measured in pampering and "human happiness." Just yesterday she took him to the groomer and he got a "blueberry facial" (A WHAT?!?!?) He poops and pees in the house still, and I got a text a few days ago about him needing PJs.


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## jang

I don't know if I agree or not here..one of my staff just (2 weeks ago) lost one of her dogs..the dogs were rescued together , found in a crate left to die beside a railroad track...These 2 were inseparable..fast forward to today.. the remaining dog is miserable, depressed and all around feeling lost..So, my employee adopted a dog from spca and is picking up tomorrow..Employee lives with her grandmother and she was the dog who passed "mom" for sake of a better term..Anyhow, is this wrong? Or shallow thinking..They really feel the remaining dog needs company and also the grandma needs another dog ..I don't see anything wrong with this..jan


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## Cassidy's Mom

harmony said:


> What bothers me is when I get a not so nice message from a mod and my login is messed up, and now I see my name posted to post I didn't even make (u know who u r)!


Are you saying that someone else is logging in and posting under your username? If so, is it possible that it's one of your kids. It's definitely NOT a moderator, and unless you've given your login info to someone, it's not anyone else on the board either.


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## kiya

Unfortunately there are too many people like that in the world and way too many dogs that do need homes. There is no guarantee that they aren't going to "love" & "care" for the rescued dog. Of course maybe not as much as the litte princess/prince. 
I hate to admit that I know a few people that have purchased puppies from pet stores. Most of them have no idea the puppy they purchased came from a puppy mill and that although they feel they rescued the puppy from the store they don't realize they just made room for more and supported the puppy mill. I have had to avoid countless arguement about that.
Anyway since there are so many dogs in shelters as long as they are providing a basically good home, I would have to bite my tongue and figure out if the home is acceptable.
When we first got our GSD Cheyenne unfortunately from a byb years ago I rescued Chazzy for him, I couldn't afford or justify spending money to buy a dog, so maybe thats why I feel the way I do. Chazzy had a good life with us.


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## msvette2u

> Anyway since there are so many dogs in shelters as long as they are providing a basically good home, I would have to bite my tongue and figure out if the home is acceptable.


This is about the size of it. We'll be doing reference checks today.


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## holland

The first GSD I bought (he wasn't from a pet store) and I was planning to get a GSD from a friend of mine who was a breeder-but then a friend called about a stray GSD in the shelter-never thought I would get a shelter dog-but to me it doesn't matter how much you pay for a dog -you grow to care for them just as much-actually in another thread I was wondering what a crappy dog was-so I guess my feeling is if the dog ends up with a good home-isn't that the most important thing??


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## msvette2u

I agree...it's not as much about money spent as the "feeling" that they just need a cheap/throwaway dog to keep dog #1 company...and that's as much my own issue (I admit this) as anything.
I feel as if this dog is a second rate citizen "plain ol rescue", or something?
I'm working through it


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## Syaoransbear

I hope that maybe they are going with a rescue not because the dog is second rate and just a play toy for their first dog, but because they learned from their first experience that a big price tag doesn't mean a better dog.


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## msvette2u

Syaoransbear said:


> I hope that maybe they are going with a rescue not because the dog is second rate and just a play toy for their first dog, but because they learned from their first experience that a big price tag doesn't mean a better dog.


:thumbup:


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## selzer

I think you are reading too much into it. I have people come to me after getting a dog from another breeder or getting a dog from me, and wanting to get another for their dog. Canine companionship is something real. It is like meat. I can live my life without meat, but that doesn't make it wrong for me to like meat, and to even enjoy meat. 

Dogs can live their entire lives without canine companionship. But how many photos on the monthly photo contests have a pair or more dogs doing their thing together?

There was a study done in shelters where they found that dogs housed in with other dogs are actually quieter. They are a pack animal, and people often get worried about them home all day alone and think that a second dog might mean two happy dogs. It is not just about making Pootsie Poo happy. We are humans, they are canines, and we as humans can't possibly run and chase and play as a canine. We can make our dog or dogs' lives very happy without being canines for them even if we do not provide a canine housemate. But there is nothing wrong with the thinking that two dogs just make sense. Lots and lots of people find this to be optimum. 

If you are raising pigs, it is best to raise at least two as a single pig generally does not do well. If you have a horse, and you cannot afford two horses, it is nice to get a goat to keep the horse company as a horse alone in a barn is not optimum. I understand the idea of dogs being within the family unit, but it is also true that many of us leave in the morning for work and do not return until evening, and all of that time Fido is either crated or loose alone in the house. 

I am sure there are flakes in the world that think Princess Poo should have a pet of her own, but I think one that is that far gone would probably get Princess Poo's pet from just as an expensive place as they got her. I think people will go to a shelter or rescue out of some feeling of being responsible for homeless pets, or guilt for buying their first one (which I think is ridiculous, but I have heard people say this). Some switch back and forth, breeder/rescue/breeder/rescue.


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## Liesje

I can see where you are coming from. Now that I do rescue I just try to let it go. The best I can hope for are good homes. A lot of our homes need some support; no one was born knowing everything (I can relate because I got my first dog - an adult GSD I adopted from a breeder for free - when I was 22, I never had a dog growing up). The last puppy I placed was to a couple who has never owned a dog. Watching them interact with their dog is awkward at times but they do mean well by their dog and are already doing flyball and enrolling in obedience. I can't hold everyone to my standard, I can only be happy they decided to rescue _this time_. I've had rescue dogs/cats, dogs purchased directly from a breeder, dogs adopted from a breeder/other party but not a rescue. To me the right dog is the right dog. I don't feel guilty buying a dog. My heart dog is a rescue dog a we were his fourth home in one year (he was born in a shelter and fostered, adopted out, then returned and fostered again, then we adopted him). I hope to his foster family it didn't look like I was trying to get a cheap deal on a dog to keep my purebred GSD company. I've never regretted any of my pets and do not feel any guilt or the need to justify my decisions, but I am always happy to explain where I got a dog and why.


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## msvette2u

> To me the right dog is the right dog. I don't feel guilty buying a dog.


Oh, I don't, and wouldn't, either, but do not ever recommend a pet store for a purchase.
In fact a guy applied yesterday for a GSD we have (Kate) and they don't have a fenced yard, so I declined - Kate would do better in a fenced yard. Another GSD that was less dog may be able to meet their needs, but not this particular one, due to her issues, and the man was offended, and said he'd be visiting a breeder.

I said that is fine, but avoid BYBs and ask AKC about a recommendation, as I don't have a good recommendation for here in our area :shrug:


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## Liesje

Me either. I've never got my dogs or cats from the pet store (well I adopted one cat that was at a pet store because that's where the rescue keeps them).


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## msvette2u

Yah our "big box" pet stores have adoptable kitties in them.


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## Gharrissc

Well I may have misunderstood the post,but what I got from it was that the current dog is spoiled in an unhealthy way. To me treating a dog like a 'little person' is unhealthy. OTOH I would have to look at other factors in to play to determine if the home is good or not.I have had to make the decision to let a dog go to a home that wasn't perfect,but really good. Sometimes going to a really good home is better than not having a home at all because it's not perfect. Anyway I hope it works out for the dog.


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## msvette2u

Gharr, that's usually the case, but after teasing more information out, I think it may work. We will see.


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## rooandtree

and on the opposite side of that..you have someone like me who adopted,rescued and fostered more dogs than i could count..but now i get total crap and attitude from fellow rescue volunteers because i bought my puppy. i think they would skin me alive if they could


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## msvette2u

If your breeder is _reputable_ it should not matter.


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## selzer

rooandtree said:


> and on the opposite side of that..you have someone like me who adopted,rescued and fostered more dogs than i could count..but now i get total crap and attitude from fellow rescue volunteers because i bought my puppy. i think they would skin me alive if they could


I suppose you can always tell them that you bought the puppy for your rescue?


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## Liesje

msvette2u said:


> If your breeder is _reputable_ it should not matter.


The problem is too many people who have no stake in the decision or the dog's life think they can decide for others what is "reputable" and what is not. I have a family member always on my case but this person knows very little about GSDs, has never owned one, certainly hasn't spent years training with them and getting to know various breeders and wouldn't really know a "reputable" breeder from Adam. I don't care what anyone else thinks about my breeders or if other people consider them "reputable" or not.


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## msvette2u

Well, that's true...but after x years in rescue you can generally tell a good breeder from a bad one.
Selling pets on Kijii, etc., may be a red flag.

It's kind of like people who come here, learn all what makes a good breeder and still buy one from a BYB who doesn't even health test...


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## rooandtree

to some rescue people ive found it doesnt matter..it could be the best breeder in the world but they still think you have commited the biggest sin ever by buying a dog and not adopting one or getting from a shelter...i try not to judge people..even with my fosters..i try not to let it bother me if they have bought from a pet store or a bad breeder or wherever before..as long as they will give my foster a great home..thats all that matters..and even after they adopt my foster and they decide to get another dog from a breeder or wherever thats great as long as the dogs have great homes and are loved and taken care of..thats all that matters and thats all i could hope for


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## doggiedad

you're limiting your issues. everything you have an issue with
can be applied to people that buy from breeders, people that 
rescue, a rehomed dog, a found dog, etc.



msvette2u said:


> I have an issue with people who purchase a puppy from a pet store.
> This puppy is usually coddled, spoiled, treated like a miniature human, but suddenly, around 8-12 mos., the owner suddenly realizes this dog is getting lonesome while they are at work (typically).
> So they start shopping around for _a playmate for this dog. _
> But it's not like they decided, OH hey this dog has brought us so much joy, we want another!
> No, they need some disposable mutt to fill the gap and entertain their little miniature human dog.
> 
> But do they go back to the petstore where they got the 1st puppy? No that'd be too expensive! After all, they already paid $1200-2k for a puppy...who has _that_ kind of money??
> 
> And so they decide to apply to adopt a "playmate for current dog".
> 
> Cynical much? Yeah.
> 
> Why does this bother me so??
> 
> Possible reasons include...we rescued this dog from a fate worse than death, and don't relish the idea that these folks with a little Princess dog need a cheap mutt for their Princess' entertainment. Or, we'd like people to adopt dogs on their own merit and for what the dog can offer _them_, not their dog!?
> 
> I don't know.
> Ideas?


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## Lilie

msvette2u said:


> It's kind of like people who come here, learn all what makes a good breeder and still buy one from a BYB who doesn't even health test...


.....and then claim they 'rescued' the pup from a bad breeder. I don't understand that. By paying for a pup they are supporting the breeder.


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## Blanketback

Playing Devil's advocate here: I don't think it's fair to judge someone on the quality of their love. Quantity, yes. If they said their dog was lonely sitting alone in a pen all day, I'd question them for sure. But why they're treating their dog like a little person...could be a million reasons - maybe they're not mentally stable, they've lost a child, etc. Just because we don't think it's 'right' or 'normal' or whatever, that doesn't make it wrong.

I have a raw nerve about people judging others, I'll admit it. My panties really get in a knot when other people tell me how to raise my dogs, lol. In my youth, I'd even yell at people to "Get your own dog!" when they told me what to do. Now I'm mellower (and quieter, lmao) so I smile and nod.
But it's really nobody's business. Unless we're talking cruelty. I'm sure I'm not alone in this either, here on a GSD forum. 

I guess the biggest issue you'll have is that the humans have to pass your home evaluation, but the choosing of the dog can only be done by the other dog, lol! Since it will be his/hers. I hope it works out well for everyone.


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## arycrest

There are a lot of well bred, older dogs who need loving homes!!! I've gotten a few who needed homes and I had a home. In fact, I now prefer getting an older, already trained dog than having a young puppy that requires a lot of work. One boy I got in the Fall of 1995, JR, was the son of a multi-Select GSDCA Champion (Conan Survival) ... he was a WONDERFUL companion who loved his home dearly ... he'd been a kennel dog until he came to live with me. Faith is another one ... beautiful WGSD who flunked her OFA elbows so the breeder placed her in a pet home ... wouldn't trade the little imp for a million dollars. I got one, Too, who was six months old, who had a heart condition and wasn't supposed to live to celebrate her 2nd birthday ... she kept me entertained for over 12 years until she dropped over dead at the vet's office after her usual adequan injection. 

Yeah, I LOVE getting older dogs!!!


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## ozzymama

msvette2u said:


> Selling pets on Kijii, etc., may be a red flag.


I wouldn't have an issue with a breeder selling on kijiji. Honestly, that's where our Dolly came from, the rescue utilized kijiji. It reaches a lot of people. I mean once the initial contact was made, the screening and education... The only difference between it and a paid advertisement is quite simply the sellers who utilize it. (Not everyone knows about pet-finder) Not only that, the lady who runs the rescue/shelter is a GSD breeder - she has a large property and runs an all-breed rescue separately. No offense to anyone on here, I'd call her before I posted a question on here. It was a kijiji originated transaction, but it was a darn good one!

There are questionable breeders anywhere. You can drive down the road and see plywood signs "Pups for Sale". You can go through any purchased breeder directory and find dog breeders that you wouldn't want to touch their pups with a 10ft pole.

Educated buyers will buy from what they believe to be a good breeder/rescue/what have you. Uneducated breeders are more likely to be preyed upon by less scrupulous sellers. (I'm using the term sellers to include both rescues and breeders and brokers)

The price of the dog, the level of education of the buyer does not necessarily reflect the quality of life or commitment a person will have to that dog. There are many times extenuating circumstances regarding people who give up dogs, there are people who just cannot commit to owning a dog for 10-15 years, there are idiots out there, many. However there are people who just don't commit to the dog, who get excited about the next, new thing. It's a human error, all the screening, education and money in the world may not matter to these sorts of people. Certainly fail safes have to be put in place to attempt to weed them out. Nothing is infallible.

We got Dolly to be a companion to Oz and we were honest about it. We said we are looking for another family member who will bond with and help with the loneliness Oz was feeling after we put Sandi down. Hey, new baby in the house, wanting a pet for our pet LOL, we were lucky we got an interview! Let alone with a rescue who we think is amazing. I don't think there is anyone who could say Dolly doesn't have a good home with us, or that she isn't a valuable member of the household. 

I don't envy rescue people, it has to be impossible, given human nature to make decisions on appropriate homes for dogs. Nice to hear this particular family might upon further information be a good candidate for the dog. First impressions are hard, especially if one is not dog savvy, probably why so many go the route of breeders etc., who don't ask many questions, just sell the dog, make it a true property transaction, unfortunately education oft times comes swift after that when the purchasers experience problems with the dog, be it behavioral, physical, psychological or problems with their own situations.


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## Freestep

Blanketback said:


> I have a raw nerve about people judging others, I'll admit it. My panties really get in a knot when other people tell me how to raise my dogs, lol..


That's understandable, but unfortunately, rescue staff are in a position where they MUST judge others. They are advocates for the best interest of the animal in question, NOT the best interest of the person who applies for adoption. So they have to take in all the information they reasonably can, and then make a judgment on whether that person is fit to care for an animal. 

It can be very difficult, because if there is an error in judgment and the wrong decision is made, the rescue feels a tremendous amount of guilt if something bad happens to the animal. This in turn makes their judgment process more severe, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous IMO. It's not a position I would want to be in.


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## Blanketback

For sure! And random home visits are ideal, but in reality there's only so much you can do in a day. I was just 'putting it out there' that spoiling and relating to them like a little person is just how some people are going to treat their pets.


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## ozzymama

Blanketback said:


> For sure! And random home visits are ideal, but in reality there's only so much you can do in a day. I was just 'putting it out there' that spoiling and relating to them like a little person is just how some people are going to treat their pets.



I wouldn't let someone in on a random home inspection and I wouldn't sign a contract that required them LOL. I'm very home proud, not that I have a lot of really nice things, but I am proud of and meticulous about keeping a clean home. My 21 month old knows if she sees a stray piece of grass or bit of dirt it gets picked up and put in the garbage  The poor child will have problems. That doesn't mean there are not times through-out the day where toys are scattered, dishes are not done... I am horrified and apologize profusely if my own sister comes in my house and things are not perfect.

There is a rescue out there for everyone, there is a breeder out there for everyone. Thank goodness there is, not many people get me.

Plus, a random home visit, you might interrupt something you didn't want to, eventually my kid does sleep and well dh and I use that time wisely 
Oft times we forget we have windows, the poor mailman got an eyeful one day, we forgot we didn't have a curtain on the window beside the door and he got a full view of our staircase  We haven't seen that mailman since LOL Hopefully he's just on holidays and not too embarrassed to ever come to my home again!


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## msvette2u

Blanketback said:


> For sure! And random home visits are ideal, but in reality there's only so much you can do in a day. I was just 'putting it out there' that spoiling and relating to them like a little person is just how some people are going to treat their pets.


It wasn't the spoiling that got to me, btw. It was the fact they seemed to think they needed to buy their pet a pet


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## Blanketback

ozzymama said:


> he got a full view of our staircase


ozzymama, you've really got my imagination working overtime


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## Blanketback

msvette2u said:


> It wasn't the spoiling that got to me, btw. It was the fact they seemed to think they needed to buy their pet a pet


There's probably lots of people like this out there though. I found a dog once, and rather than bringing her to the shelter, I kept her. Why? Because my dog liked her! I did give my info to all the shelters and I did put up posters, but knowing that the shelters were already overcrowded it seemed like the thing to do. But I did it for my dog, LOL! Crazy? YUP!


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## msvette2u

We've adopted a dog and it wound up being two dogs - for a dog. And they didn't get along! I mean they didn't hate each other but ignored each each other completely.
So we kept them all and now our home is nuts. But many folks, upon finding out the old dog doesn't care for new dog, may give up new dog, so we have to be aware of that potential.

And if two equally good homes (good food, exercise, regular vetting, etc.) presented themselves, I'd choose the one who wanted the dog for himself and what he could offer, as opposed to one who wanted the dog to keep another dog company.

That's my logic anyway


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## CarrieJ

Well smack me and call me Anne Frank. 
I'll believe that people are basically good. Maybe they were ignorant of the conditions that 99% of the puppies sold in pets stores are bred and raised. They don't want to repeat the process, but they do want a "pet for their pet" (that actually made me giggle)

What people don't understand is if they completely humanize the first little prince/princess is that they will create issues that another dog will not only not fix, but the issues will be compounded. 
*adopting another dog the same gender (just add some competition to inexperienced humans)
*adopting a dog vastly different in size (they don't really play when the sizes are off...mine very, very, rarely. It's too hard for the bigger dog to be that restrained ALL the time)
*Original dog has some kind of problem like Resource Guarding/Separation Anxiety. Adding a new dog to the mix without trying to fix the original problems will only (usually) teach the new dog the same problems.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes adding a dog to another dog that has separation anxiety will allieviate the symptoms; however, the human has to work on the original issues with the original dog first before bringing in the second dog.
Did that make sense?
My favorite line to people is "They don't come this way. Lots of work" or:
"Figure two hours a day for the first two years----not all together but still two hours a day" That works well with teenagers.
"Want to go to a party/concert? Have you trained/worked/run/walked your dog? It's raining? Get an umbrella."


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## martemchik

I get where you're coming from msvette. If these people came to you and said, "We want a companion for our current dog and this is how greatly we treat her..." You wouldn't really have this issue. But they came to you and said, "we aren't home all the time so our current pet needs someone to play with." So you have questions of what is going to be the amount of attention devoted to the new dog. I think it takes a very special human being to adopt a dog and be able to really treat one differently than the first one. But some people are able to do that.

Problem with this thread, is that for those of us that have dealt with rescues, it sounds like a rescue person trying to find another reason NOT to give a dog to a good home.


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## Lilie

I'm the selfish type. I get a dog for me. I bet if you spoke to any of my dogs, they'd gladly offer up the others for a chance to be the 'only' dog. They are selfish that way as well.


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## Blanketback

martemchik said:


> Problem with this thread, is that for those of us that have dealt with rescues, it sounds like a rescue person trying to find another reason NOT to give a dog to a good home.


OUCH! 

Please don't let that get under your skin, msvette2u.


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## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> OUCH!
> 
> Please don't let that get under your skin, msvette2u.


I didn't mean it to be harsh! I swear! Its just the first thought that popped into my mind when I read the thread.

I completely understand the reservations, and if the other tests don't work out then I completely understand not giving these people a dog. It's just that if these people completely spoil one dog, I don't see them not doing it to the second one, I guess sometimes I wish we would trust people a little more.


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## ozzymama

martemchik said:


> Problem with this thread, is that for those of us that have dealt with rescues, it sounds like a rescue person trying to find another reason NOT to give a dog to a good home.



This is a good point and that's why when I do have discussions with people I tell them, don't expect a rescue to give you a dog because you fell in love with a picture of it somewhere. Sometimes you have to get involved with the rescue in some way to let them know who you are, if the capacity is there, volunteer, get to know someone in the rescue you are interested in. See if their guidelines are ones you can work within. It's not like going to the store and buying a candy bar, you are not just purchasing a dog, you are cultivating and establishing a relationship for life with the dog and the rescue. After care and support is so important to you and the dog.

Sometimes you have to explain to people that they have the upper hand as well. If the rescue is not reputable, the people are not friendly, you will not get the support you might need after the purchase. It's not going to be a positive experience for you or the dog, in which case, you are not going to feel as good about the adoption. Rescues run on references too. It's a two-way street, if the rescue does not offer support, does not help you, you shouldn't deal with them and really an intake information sheet and phone interview are not going to give you the purchaser or them, the seller a true idea of what one another is about. That's why I think if you are adding a member of the family, you should learn about the rescue itself before you fall in love with a particular dog. Get references from people have adopted from them, ask questions regarding support after, call the vet the rescue uses, are they HW testing, what standard of care do the dogs receive. If people scrutinized the rescues as carefully as the rescues scrutinize them, it would be a lot better for a lot more dogs. If a rescue does not want a potential adopter to scrutinize them as closely as they want to scrutinize a potential adopter, move on, that is not a rescue to deal with. It's not a relationship to foster or cultivate. A rescue who is not open to being scrutinized, questioned or being transparent isn't going to last long anyways, it's a relationship for the dog's life and hopefully the purchaser's life. I know if I want another dog, even when dh and I move 3 hours from here, I will still call and come back to the rescue we purchased Dolly from, because the relationship is there, I'm comfortable, they are comfortable with me.


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## Lilie

CarrieJ said:


> Well smack me and call me Anne Frank.


*SMACK!* Well, hey there, Anne!


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## Blanketback

martemchik said:


> I didn't mean it to be harsh! I swear!


Phew!!!


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## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> I didn't mean it to be harsh! I swear! Its just the first thought that popped into my mind when I read the thread.
> 
> I completely understand the reservations, and if the other tests don't work out then I completely understand not giving these people a dog. It's just that if these people completely spoil one dog, I don't see them not doing it to the second one, I guess sometimes I wish we would trust people a little more.


I understand completely. We just had to collect a dog from the humane society over by Seattle, so yeah, I'm gunshy. 
AND I bet those incidents tally up, even if I don't think they are doing so consciously.



> It's not like going to the store and buying a candy bar, you are not just purchasing a dog, you are cultivating and establishing a relationship for life with the dog and the rescue. After care and support is so important to you and the dog.


I'd kill for more adopters like you!! :wub:

You can't believe how many people approach and do think they are _buying *that* dog._ They don't think it's fair they have to cover costs for other pets here, and for the next rescue, as well!


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> I guess sometimes I wish we would trust people a little more.


Yeah, I sometimes wish we *could* trust people a little more. But work in rescue at all, and you'll see things, horrible things, that really make you lose faith and trust in humanity. It makes you question everybody, even those that seem like nice people to your face. People lie, people cheat, people break the law and break your trust. Deal with it enough times and you can get really jaded, and pretty soon you don't trust ANYONE.

That is part of the reason why the burnout rate is so high with shelter and rescue staff.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> Yeah, I sometimes wish we *could* trust people a little more. But work in rescue at all, and you'll see things, horrible things, that really make you lose faith and trust in humanity. It makes you question everybody, even those that seem like nice people to your face. People lie, people cheat, people break the law and break your trust. Deal with it enough times and you can get really jaded, and pretty soon you don't trust ANYONE.
> 
> That is part of the reason why the burnout rate is so high with shelter and rescue staff.


Story of my life...
And I think we need a rescue forum to vent on 

This last week alone, I've taken in two seniors, one who has possible Cushing's or a thyroid condition, one who had cheat grass so bad in her ear that her ear drum is gone, she had cheat embedded in her teeth so bad it ripped open her gums and came out her face, we took in a "schnoodle" (schnauzer Poodle x) that was covered in BURS so badly we could not handle him without gloves - burs like miniature cacti, we had to shave him to the skin to get the burs out, hes had cheat grass working through his skin and creating abscesses, and are bottle feeding a litter of 6 infant puppies dumped for no reason other than the owner of mom (who must be fully engorged) didn't want to deal with newborn puppies!?

Prosser, Washington - Dog and Cat Adoption, Dog and Cat Rescue Pet Listings

Rosie is a return - Micah (bear) is a return (we collected from the HS), and I got an email last week saying another family wanted to return the dog they had because she has "separation anxiety". I think _she_ just barks, not destructive, so I've been working with them so they can keep her. Heh...they wanted to trade her for a dog with "no anxiety" which of course I could not do...

I am tired of people and want to give up rescue most days


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## ozzymama

msvette2u said:


> I'd kill for more adopters like you!! :wub:
> 
> You can't believe how many people approach and do think they are _buying *that* dog._ They don't think it's fair they have to cover costs for other pets here, and for the next rescue, as well!



It took me getting involved with rescues to really become educated. I was approved to foster for one whose requirement was a fenced yard, but mine, was not fenced. We lived on an acreage, my dogs were perimeter trained. If I wanted, I could have adopted from them, because I established that relationship, I knew their rules, they knew my philosophies, knew me as a person. They would have bent the fence rule in that situation. We didn't want to adopt, but knew we could. 

It's about making contacts, you don't let your kid go to some babysitter or friend's home you do not know. Without humanizing them, people have to understand the same rules apply with a dog. If owning dogs is something you want to do, you have to approach it like anything else, make contacts, make friends.

When Oz's back went, I didn't have breeder or sibling information but during the course of 2 days I was able to speak with enough people going through similar issues just by opening my mouth and talking. Relationship with the vet and the techs, led me to the training and swimming facility for physio, the chiropractor led me to other owners through references. I sincerely believe in contacts, even the woman who owned the pet store I bought food at had information and contacts for me. I really believe in networking and it being beneficial to all. I have a friend, he saw my Christmas card from one of my gf's, it was one of her rotties on a sleeve, the helper dressed as Santa and the rottie wearing antlers. Anyways, he's a huge rottie fan, I connected him with my gf who breeds them stateside (married to a breeder), she's very active in Schutzhund and judges, I go down once in a while, watch a trial or two, after we drink too much wine, laugh too much and we spend 2 weeks recovering from a 3 day visit LOL He bought a pup from her, he would not have been able to do so on his own, she would have immediately discounted him as not being the kind of owner her dogs go to. Instead, he contacted her, she called me who the bleep is this dude, he went with me on a visit, met her, talked to her, she matched him with a pup and he couldn't be happier. As a relatively new owner, new to the dog world so to speak, he has a high caliber dog and a true love for a new sport. I could vouch for him and give her an unbiased opinion of his abilities.
I think people need to be honest on both sides of the transaction and try to understand one anothers side. But, that only can happen if a relationship is fostered. Too many people on both sides get beleaguered by the process and give up or become frustrated.
Just my $0.02 I have a hard time seeing rescues get bashed for what seems over the top requirements, but I have a hard time seeing adopters frustrated because they don't really understand the process. I don't think you need a license to own a dog, maybe 5 hours of volunteer work with a shelter or rescue, just to understand the process and get to know one another.


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## CarrieJ

Lilie said:


> *SMACK!* Well, hey there, Anne!


Oh, I admit that statement is a very difficult one to maintain. In the last year, my bosses vet called in an attempt to save a three year old GSDs life. The owner brought it in to be put down because it had seizures. Not clusters....just a few mild ones. Sadly at the time, we couldn't take it in.
*we have an eight year old foster female GSD right now that came in with a bite record (fear biter) that the guy raised as a puppy and the new girlfriend with her kid is afraid of.....if you greet her properly she likes her ears scratched, she also likes to play fetch and will give up whatever you are tossing for her.
*we have had two fosters a lab/shep X and a lab/pit mix for over a year. Those are the tough ones, the lab/shep X has "crate syndrome" and we've been working on it. She just got adopted this last week. (hooray!)
The Lab/pit mix will most likely live out her life with us. Too bad really, she's mildly D/A but really likes adolecent dogs. You know the ones that usually make older dogs crazy....she's eleven.
The lab/pit mix had one person interested, the meet and greet went well, until the home visit. The dad said to my boss that she would be a "yard dog"....that ended that. It's hard to adopt out a 10+ year old pit anything. Oh, and this one is black...for some reason black isn't a popular color except at Halloween...
We've had three phone calls this week for people trying to re-home dogs because they are having a child...WTH???
We are not a rescue organization, we are a cageless boarding facility so the fosters that we take in must not be dog/human aggressive. Or basically show "forward aggression"....fear we can work with to the most part.

So yeah, if Anne Frank could do it.....darn it! So can I. 
Otherwise I'll have that attitude of "People are stupid and they stink"
The euthanized GSD for seizures was easy to handle, good around other dogs....that one really sucked and my boss was in a messed up mood for pretty much the rest of the day....the timing just stunk all the way around for that one.


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## msvette2u

OH and we just had two kittens (4mos. and virtually feral) tossed in our barn by someone who knew we do rescue. We try to keep a lot of anonymity about where we live, etc. for this reason!

The reason I know someone put them there, my daughter heard car doors slam in the night, and in the AM I went out to check on our new barn kitty and boom, an orange kitten I'd never seen before!
SO we set up a trap and I went back and TWO kittens were in it!

I'd love rescue so much more if you didn't have to deal with people


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## Lilie

CarrieJ said:


> Oh, I admit that statement is a very difficult one to maintain. In the last year, my bosses vet called in an attempt to save a three year old GSDs life. The owner brought it in to be put down because it had seizures. Not clusters....just a few mild ones. Sadly at the time, we couldn't take it in.


I totally agree with you, I was just poking...or smacking. My BF is a vet tech. My last three 'lap' dogs came from her clinic where clients wanted to PTS their animals because of various problems..NONE being health related. (The clinic obtained premission to adopt out.) I consider them my 'rescue' dogs. Fully vetted dogs with minor flaws. Cost me nothing to 'adopt' them. Just some serious re-training. Win/Win. My current mini-doxie is the third dog. She is a great dog.


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## blehmannwa

I joke that Tempest(16 week pit) is Havoc's dog, but of course she isn't.When Ron and I purchased our dream purebred GSD we also agreed to always have a rescue dog. Purebreds need good homes just as much as rescues and good breeders need to make a living. My experience with Pit Bull Rescue made me very aware of the plight of pits.

Our adoption of Tempest meant that she didn't end up in a rescue and that's for the best. I'd love to be able to do foster care again. I never had a problem giving the pups up as I knew my limits and saw adoptions as freeing me up to help another pit. If a better home came along for Tempest I'd probably let her go. (I don't think that she's going anywhere besides it would break Hav's heart.)


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## Gharrissc

That would be a good idea for a rescue forum. Since we are venting I guess I will throw mine in here as well. A man adopted one of my GSD rescues ,Dixie last November moved out about a week ago and left her behind. Most of her ears are bitten off by files,and she is extremely thin. Soooooooooooooo I have another foster on top of the two I have now. I hadn't conducted a visit in a while and decided to stop by since I couldn't get in contact with this man. I pull in the driveway and see Dixie sitting on the front step.She was so glad to see someone,she jumped in my truck before I could even get the door open all the way. The couple who lives next door to this man have been very helpful and said that they know where he lives.I am filing charges against him.




msvette2u said:


> Story of my life...
> And I think we need a rescue forum to vent on
> 
> This last week alone, I've taken in two seniors, one who has possible Cushing's or a thyroid condition, one who had cheat grass so bad in her ear that her ear drum is gone, she had cheat embedded in her teeth so bad it ripped open her gums and came out her face, we took in a "schnoodle" (schnauzer Poodle x) that was covered in BURS so badly we could not handle him without gloves - burs like miniature cacti, we had to shave him to the skin to get the burs out, hes had cheat grass working through his skin and creating abscesses, and are bottle feeding a litter of 6 infant puppies dumped for no reason other than the owner of mom (who must be fully engorged) didn't want to deal with newborn puppies!?
> 
> Prosser, Washington - Dog and Cat Adoption, Dog and Cat Rescue Pet Listings
> 
> Rosie is a return - Micah (bear) is a return (we collected from the HS), and I got an email last week saying another family wanted to return the dog they had because she has "separation anxiety". I think _she_ just barks, not destructive, so I've been working with them so they can keep her. Heh...they wanted to trade her for a dog with "no anxiety" which of course I could not do...
> 
> I am tired of people and want to give up rescue most days


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## CarrieJ

Gharrissc said:


> That would be a good idea for a rescue forum. Since we are venting I guess I will throw mine in here as well. A man adopted one of my GSD rescues ,Dixie last November moved out about a week ago and left her behind. Most of her ears are bitten off by files,and she is extremely thin. Soooooooooooooo I have another foster on top of the two I have now. I hadn't conducted a visit in a while and decided to stop by since I couldn't get in contact with this man. I pull in the driveway and see Dixie sitting on the front step.She was so glad to see someone,she jumped in my truck before I could even get the door open all the way. The couple who lives next door to this man have been very helpful and said that they know where he lives.I am filing charges against him.


You go! What a (insert profanity of your choice here)!

Nancy, I actually apologize...I forgot one of my favorite dancing poops or something. It was getting late and my computer suddenly did it's Mule Transformation and I had to get to work.  (there's one!)


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## jang

Lilie said:


> .....and then claim they 'rescued' the pup from a bad breeder. I don't understand that. By paying for a pup they are supporting the breeder.


I take exception to this--Before I ever found this site and learned what I have I "rescued" Sib from a byb...I will never believe differently..God only knows what would have happened to her if I had not bought her..She was already spayed and had been returned at 12 months..put out into a field and left there..How is that not a rescue?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Gharrissc said:


> That would be a good idea for a rescue forum.


There IS a rescue forum. You are now in it.


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## martemchik

What sucks is that that one guy, makes it tougher for normal/good dog owners to rescue a pet, and when they get annoyed by all the requirements of a rescue they'll go and "rescue" a pet from a byb because they truly can't afford a $1500 dog.

I'm not blaming the rescue, its just a terrible circle that just perpetuates the issues we have.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

jang said:


> I take exception to this--Before I ever found this site and learned what I have I "rescued" Sib from a byb...I will never believe differently..God only knows what would have happened to her if I had not bought her..She was already spayed and had been returned at 12 months..put out into a field and left there..How is that not a rescue?


You helped a dog but if you purchased her from a BYB, you gave money to someone who is now further justified in their practices. People do the same with the "puppy mill rescues" and they should totally know better. 

So while you may feel that you have rescued her, and you did help her, the difference is also partly semantic. She is not "a rescue dog" or from "a rescue" because she just isn't. 

She is a dog purchased (if money exchanged hands - if not, then that's different too) from a bad situation. You helped her, you saved her from her fate, but in doing so may have inadvertently caused many more dogs to suffer by giving money to that person (if you did). 

Now you know better. And hopefully everyone who wants to help a dog does so by not giving money to people who will continue an awful cycle of mistreating animals. No matter how hard it is to walk away, you are actually doing more to help by doing so. Maybe someday there will be a better way, I am not sure what that will be, but for now...that's all we have that I can think of (unless conditions are such that AC or police should be called).

This is all based on the thought that you paid for her - if you just got her out of the field and they gave her to you, that is not helping them at all - which is good.


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## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> What sucks is that that one guy, makes it tougher for normal/good dog owners to rescue a pet, and when they get annoyed by all the requirements of a rescue they'll go and "rescue" a pet from a byb because they truly can't afford a $1500 dog.
> 
> I'm not blaming the rescue, its just a terrible circle that just perpetuates the issues we have.


I don't think this is the case.
We see many people who want to apply, see our app and decline to fill it out.
I mean...I'm supposed to just give them a dog because _they_ say they are good owners?
Even when we screen up the hilt, and ask a decent fee to deter poor, uncommitted owners, we wind up with weird situations and dogs left behind, so to not take an app...is foolhardy at best.

I mean, if people want to buy a dog they will. Lack of commitment to that pet and desire to avoid accountability to us is what drives them to purchase a pet store or BYB dog. Ironically, pet stores charge wayyyy more $$$ than a rescue, yet they don't feel a rescue pet is worth $300 or whatever, they'd rather buy a "brand new" puppy than a "used one".

I could go on


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## jang

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You helped a dog but if you purchased her from a BYB, you gave money to someone who is now further justified in their practices. People do the same with the "puppy mill rescues" and they should totally know better.
> 
> So while you may feel that you have rescued her, and you did help her, the difference is also partly semantic. She is not "a rescue dog" or from "a rescue" because she just isn't.
> 
> She is a dog purchased (if money exchanged hands - if not, then that's different too) from a bad situation. You helped her, you saved her from her fate, but in doing so may have inadvertently caused many more dogs to suffer by giving money to that person (if you did).
> 
> Now you know better. And hopefully everyone who wants to help a dog does so by not giving money to people who will continue an awful cycle of mistreating animals. No matter how hard it is to walk away, you are actually doing more to help by doing so. Maybe someday there will be a better way, I am not sure what that will be, but for now...that's all we have that I can think of (unless conditions are such that AC or police should be called).
> 
> This is all based on the thought that you paid for her - if you just got her out of the field and they gave her to you, that is not helping them at all - which is good.


I concede to all of the above--I could not walk away however I will not ever put myself in a like situation again..I Did pay for her.. I am not sorry I did.. But this is a one step at a time process to stop the byb practice..I as the rest of you are committed to not adding to their fat and unethical wallets..


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

jang said:


> I concede to all of the above--I could not walk away however I will not ever put myself in a like situation again..I Did pay for her.. I am not sorry I did.. But this is a one step at a time process to stop the byb practice..I as the rest of you are committed to not adding to their fat and unethical wallets..


Yeah - that's how I "deal" with it too - do not go unless we are invited on site to take puppies for free, help speuter the parents, etc. Putting yourself into that situation is a really good way to put it and the part that we need to start teaching people about - don't go! 

I can not walk into a shelter without having a problem of wanting to help them all, could not see a BYB without having a problem of wanting to help them all, so I don't. Thankfully other people can and do, and so I do what I do after the fact. 

I completely understand what you did. I am glad for your dog. I wish we didn't have to deal with this at all. (dreamer!)


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## CarrieJ

I think now if you stroll through a more metropolitan area's shelter you'll find more "designer" breeds.

Oooh, a labradoodle! It's hypoallergenic, it doesn't shed, etc....
A chiweenie,
A tinypoo anything.....
puggles, basset/beagle mixes 
Let's not forget the countless pit mixes.....

My boss doesn't charge rescue fee but he does have a pretty stringent application and home visit and everyone who is going to live with the dog must be present at the meet and greet. This includes dogs.
He also will give 50% boarding/daycare for life and free training for life.
When I stop to think about how much money he has put into these fosters, just feeding, grooming, vetting. (Emma the recent one who was adopted, just had about 2K in dental issues cleared up) I can only wonder about the poorer county shelters in this country that have to put semi-healthy dogs down due to funding/space issues.
In reality, adoption fees are not unreasonable, sometimes I have an issue with the training deposits, as: what if the trainer I like isn't on their list? But, training is training, and some formal training is better than no formal training. (for the average joe/jane citizen)

We still have a couple of fosters that come in to visit....

Zelda the latest is a great dog. I really think someone had to work to get her to bite.


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## blehmannwa

I remember a couple who didn't think that we needed to do a home visit. They said they weren't comfortable with it and we should just trust them because of their religion. Nope.


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## msvette2u

blehmannwa said:


> I remember a couple who didn't think that we needed to do a home visit. They said they weren't comfortable with it and we should just trust them because of their religion. Nope.


I declined a couple recently, after everything on their application checked out, but when I met their Malamute, it's hair was in horrible shape, and they were going to be adopting another double coated dog!
I saw their dog, saw mats in her tail, and on her back legs and was like..."What is going on with her coat...??"
They made up a few excuses but if I can keep my Sheltie mix (super model) mat free for 10 dang years and counting, they ought to be able to keep their Mal mat free for the past 2-3 yrs. or however long it had been!

ALSO - to follow up - after numerous emails and reference checks, we adopted the pup to them. They are very obviously in love with their dog but had also fallen for the "Schnoodle", as well, it looks like a happy family


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## martemchik

msvette2u said:


> I don't think this is the case.
> We see many people who want to apply, see our app and decline to fill it out.
> I mean...I'm supposed to just give them a dog because _they_ say they are good owners?
> Even when we screen up the hilt, and ask a decent fee to deter poor, uncommitted owners, we wind up with weird situations and dogs left behind, so to not take an app...is foolhardy at best.
> 
> I mean, if people want to buy a dog they will. Lack of commitment to that pet and desire to avoid accountability to us is what drives them to purchase a pet store or BYB dog. Ironically, pet stores charge wayyyy more $$$ than a rescue, yet they don't feel a rescue pet is worth $300 or whatever, they'd rather buy a "brand new" puppy than a "used one".
> 
> I could go on


This is just an extension of what I said. I agree with all of it. The way to stop it is to not have places where anyone and everyone can go get a dog. A rescue does more work reviewing their potential adopters than a reputable breeder, but most breeders understand that someone paying 1000+ for a dog are probably doing okay. Are there issues sometimes? Yes...but not too many.

When someone gets turned down by a rescue or shelter its just too easy for them to go get a dog at a store or on craigslist from a byb. And a puppy is at the end of the day a puppy. When we rescue...we plan to get a dog under a year old. Preferably around 6 months of age. Mostly to make sure that I don't have to fix anything the old owner messed up lol but also because my boy will be around 3 at that time and we don't want them too close in age.


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