# The different types of Sit



## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

Sandy (11 month old JRT) heels beautifully on both my left and right side. BUT! When I slow down to a stop, she swings out and either does a front finish or sits on an angle. I can lure her in to the sit but she still sits on the angle.. It's like there's a magnet in her butt that's reacting badly with my leg. LOL!

Also I'm trying to teach her a left side swing... Like for Rally. Circling around the right to finish on the left in a sit.. It ain't happening.. I've got her on leash and am using food to lure her around. She'll get to my right hip then she refuses to move any further. I don't really want to drag her around by the neck but the food isn't working..

Any ideas??


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

My fidleco dogs have a tendency to swing as well. I teach them while standing next to a cabinet, counter or wall. If they try to swing, they simply hit the wall. 
We teach a "come to heal" that is similar, although the entire movement is done on the left. (This teaches our dogs to walk into their harnesses.)
I have great success teaching the movement by stepping back with the foot the movement is executed on. It seems to start them in motion. (Lots of treats of course!!!)
When they get good at it, I simply no longer step back.


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I'll have to try heeling next to a wall..I tried stepping back but she just scooted her butt on the angle to keep up. Lol. She's to smart for her own good.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Yeah, have had a couple of those. On that note, when you forcefully place them into the correct swing position, and then reward them, it is amazing how quick the smart ones figure it out!
The heeling next to the wall has saved me a few times, especially with the ones who always want to keep eye contact. Believe it or not, less treats and more verbal encouragement seemed to work well for my fosters who swung out when sitting. (They stopped turning to me for treats!)


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I use alot of verbal praise when we're heeling then I treat at the end. I found with Sandy, if I treat during the heel then she figures the action is complete and she forges. Hmm.. I think I may need to find a larger wall thou to teach her the sit at the end. Lol

So I should physically place her a couple times in the spot I want her then treat for the proper placement?


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I do. I find that my girls figure out really quick when I actually make them do the movement. I give the command, make them do the movement,(yes, sometimes I have to almost drag them through it) and when they reach the correct position and focus on me(even if its a split second) they get a Huge reward. (Lots of praise and a great treat.)
Try it a couple of times and see if it doesn't help. 
After I give the original command, they get no voice, treat or attention from me until they hit the spot. I still go through the motions with a treat in my hand, but I will "drag" them around to the correct position.When they hit it, and look at me, I make them feel like they just saved the world!


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I'll have to give that a shot tomorrow. Actually I think I'll try that with both my girls. 
At what point should I fade out treats for the heel? Like I said, she doesn't get it until the action is complete but I hold my arm in a certain way and I think she's responding to that as the hand motion for "Heel"


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

When my girls hit the movement every time, I start substituting voice for food. If you are talking about the heel without swinging (against the wall) Then for the first couple of times, I will give a reward, and then quickly fade out to voice, with the reward being every 3rd or 4th time in the beginning. I find that my girls who swing or sit on an angle are swinging to the treat. Giving the treat from the left hand helps too(something I have a hard time mastering) When the treat comes from my right hand, the dogs have a tendency to cross over to look for it.


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I give treats with both hands, depending on what side she's on. 
So when starting out, I should be unpredictable with the dispensing of the treats so she doesn't break the movement until I say..


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

My dogs always work from the left because that is the side that Guides must be on. I have a horrible tendency to treat from the right, and my dogs pick up on that very quickly.(my dominate hand) I have to remind myself to treat from the left, so the dogs don't learn to cross over for their reward.(6 pups later, and I'm still making the mistake!)


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

Lol! I made that mistake with Maze. Heel on my right, treat with my left. I had her walking backwards, in front of me, waiting for the treat.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

It seems as though the best guides I have ever raised have been too in tune to the treats. I have had better luck weaning them quickly. It was like they knew there was a treat coming, so how could they shorten the movement to get it quicker? They were really trying hard to out think me. So yes, I became random with my treats. And they became more in tune to the sound of my voice. It's a bit like clicker training, but I find my voice and pets work just as well.


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I've got a clicker but I only use it when I'm shaping movements I don't want a cue for.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Cant quite coordinate the clicker, my voice and the treats, so I don't use one.
(Still learning to treat from the left!)


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

I use one mostly on the agility field. Still trying to get Maze to stop jumping off the dog walk so I mark it when she hits the yellow. Now trying to coordinate the clicker, treats, TOY and the dog.. That's difficult. Lol


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Ideally you will teach your dog how to respond to commands that control the hind end, so that you can get her to understand how to tuck her rump back and sit squarely beside you. Heeling next to an object is awkward unless you're always heeling in an area that has a wall or fence - and since she's already learned to swing her rump out, the wall/fence would probably be a temporary "fix" and then she'd go back to the original behavior. It's much better to have a command that controls her hind end. And if you're planning on rally or regular obedience, you'll find that controlling the haunches is absolutely invaluable.

There are many ways to teach the dog to shift the hind end around. If your dog truly understands heel position, she should automatically adjust when you move your left shoulder back and pivot slightly to the left (in place, not in a half-circle). Many dogs, however, think of "heel" as a movement and not a position so when the person pivots left they get all discombobulated and end up out of position. So you can specifically work on getting your dog to move her haunches back and to the right (behind you when your dog is on your left).

One way to do this is to simply grasp the back of your dog's collar (a flat collar is best, both for you and the dog). Keep your palm down and put your hand over the collar so you can hold it securely (while she's in heel position and preferrably standing). (NOTE: I see that you're working with a JRT .. you will probably have difficulty reaching the collar and staying upright! Use a leash then, and bring your hand back behind you to rest on your butt - tighten that so that your dog is pulled slightly backwards and against you instead of twisting the collar). 

Then you make a very slight pivot - maybe 1/4 of one step - in place. When you do this, let your hand turn slightly counterclockwise so that the collar twists a bit. The idea here is not to create pain or to choke the dog, but to make it feel a bit awkward. And then stand there and wait. As SOON as your dog shifts her hind end to the right (even an INCH) you mark that behavior, release the collar and reward. You may have to wait a while, but patience is the key to training. 

With some dogs you may have to gently touch your toe to the front paw closest to you, but I prefer not to do this unless necessary. It's just one more thing you have to wean out (both the touch and your body movement). Most dogs will make a comfort shift just with your slight pivot and twisting the collar a bit. 

You can practice this a few times and then stop while on a good note - and do these sessions 2-3 times a day. All of the dogs I've worked with have learned pretty quickly to shift the rump back. You gradually expect more movement (once they're doing an inch consistently, expect two inches, then three, etc.). And, of course, you begin to pivot farther as you ask for more movement. You may want to practice pivots without your dog. Try turning on a paper plate - you have to keep your feet close and shuffle a bit to avoid stepping out into a circle.

Give it time to sink in. Like any behavior, a good foundation is important. Once you've got a good pivot behavior, you can add a word (I use "get back") and then fade out the collar cue. Your body cue remains, however, since you will be pivoting with the dog.

If you're really devoted to this, you can teach the pivot on the right side too. Start from the beginning, since it's a different behavior (shifting the rump to the right is not the same as shifting the rump to the left in the dog's mind) and use a different verbal command. I worked my chow in freestyle and she heels on both sides and also pivots on both sides as well as heels backward and sideways. The hard part was not the training - it's remembering all the commands!

On the right finish, I teach it by using treats to drive the dog around me. With the dog sitting in front, I initially lure the dog up with a treat in my right hand, and then toss the treat behind me (so that it lands somewhere angling toward my left side but behind me - getting the dog to start to circle) and then once she grabs the treat I simply give my heel command and bring her up into heel position (if I throw the treat correctly, she should be picking it up and turning kind of behind my left butt cheek or left hand, maybe 3-4 feet back). The movement that my right hand does (circling back to throw the treat) becomes the physical cue, too.

As the dog starts to understand, I try to toss the treat back behind me so that it lands to the left of me, to help push her farther over. And when she's consistently driving up out of the front sit and zooming behind me, I make the throwing movement but instead of letting go of the treat, I pass it to my other hand (behind my back) and then immediately step forward saying "heel" and bringing my dog up to my left, giving her the treat as she reaches heel position. Then I fade out the steps forward and start giving a verbal "sit" as she reaches heel position. 

It usually doesn't take long for a dog to pick this up. One of the problems people tend to have with the right finish is that dogs kind of meander around and gaze at things while they're behind the handler. This often happens when the old "yank 'em around with the leash" method is used. I haven't had that problem since I've gone to the more motivating method of throwing the treat. And, of course, like everything you gradually fade out the treats or make them more random (and not on you - put them on a table or shelf) so that the dog isn't thinking that she only has to work when she can see/smell a treat.

Good luck!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## oranges81 (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Melanie! I've tired to throw the treat behind me but Sandy just looks at me like "What? It's on the floor.. I don't want it" I'll have to try it with better treats I think. I just picked up some Liverwurst for this so hopefully that will work better.


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