# First Raw Meal: Input?



## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

I have continued to read up on the RAW feed for making my own. I have a 5 mo old male pup, who currently weighs in at 52 lbs. I decided to do 6% of his current weight ... is this the recomended? 

I haven't started RAW eggs yet. But have him on chicken wings (rmb) and ground turkey(mm). Waiting to let him transition to that before adding oms. 

This morning he had terrible diahareah. What can I do to help him? I have read about canned pumpkin but am unsure how much to give him?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A heeping tablespoon of pumpkin in the meal should help. Is it just pudding poo or the blasting type? 
Overfeeding can cause runny poo and the transition to raw will sometimes cause it as well. 
The wings may be too fatty, mostly skin, I would go w/ leg 1/4's instead and you won't have to do the turkey, the leg 1/4 is all you need in a meal. For a 5 month old pup, I would feed about 1.5 to 2# a day- not sure if you are doing 3x's or 2 feedings a day(I would do 2 at this age).


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks! I am feeding Recon 2 times a day (morning and night). He was on K9 Kravings before but it was getting too costly, so he's used to the RAW food.

I will try to switch to leg 1/4s ... does that mean I don't need to give him mms with leg quarters? 

When I did 6% of his current weight, it had me feeding him little over 3# a day ... I'm now thinking this is wrong. Ah!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

2-3% of his total weight. I would start with chicken backs.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Feeding bones will often take care of the diarrhea. Plus you need to cut back, 6% is too much food (2-3% of your dogs weight per day, not per meal, as Doc states is correct.) Feed twice a day - I feed muscle meat/ organ meat in the morning, raw meaty bones in the evening. 

http://www.b-naturals.com
has plenty of info on raw feeding - look in the newsletter section.

__________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD 
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Doc2-3% of his total weight. I would start with chicken backs.


Doc, total weight as in puppy's current weight or his ideal grown up weight?
I'm sorry if this is a dumb question but i just cannot find the straight answer.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: smyke
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Doc2-3% of his total weight. I would start with chicken backs.
> ...


Unless you start a puppy at 8-9 weeks of age you are going to play a guessing game of how much to feed.

Heck, even AT 8-9 weeks of age it's a guessing game.

Example - my nephew, between about 4 - 9 years of age, could eat a half dozen donuts, a plate full of pancakes plus eggs and sausage for breakfast and STILL be hungry. More importantly - he did NOT put on extra weight.

Puppies are the same. They go through periods where they seem to grow while you watch. They need extra food during those growth spurts. Then they plateau for awhile and you will be feeding the same amount of food.

So, since the #1 cause of loose stoll in a raw fed dog is OVER feeding, I'd say 6% is too much for your pup. Cut him back to 4% and watch his weight for a week. If he's LOSING weight you need to increase his food. If he's gaining a TON of weight - cut him back a bit more (.5%). IF he's growing nice and slow - he's on the right amount.

BUT - you will need to monitor his weight EVERY WEEK!

Mike - the answer to your question is that puppies need to be fed however much they NEED to grow nice and slow and it needs to be adjusted as they grow.









There is no easy, one number answer. I started Mauser at 7% of his weight at 9 weeks of age. As he grew some weeks he got more (around 9%) and some he got less (around 5%).


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Chicken wings are a very boney RMB - very little meat and turkey is a lower fat food so I'm going with over-feeding as the reason for the runs.

PLAIN canned pumpkin can be given to help firm up the stools but cutting back on the amounts is the answer.









You really can't feed too much pumpkin. A couple spoonfuls or a 1/2 cup - it won't hurt to give more.


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

SO let's say I go down to 4% of his current weight. I weigh him every Sunday and monitor his weight gain.

So i could do for dinner tonight: the correct oz of leg quarters and that is his rmb + mm combined?? I guess it's a bit confusing to me that a leg 1/4 fulfills both. Should I start feeding him oms? 

Can someone give an example of a proper meal with less bones?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

It is 2-3% of ideal weight for your dog. I would start with chicken backs because it is one of the easier raw foods on a dogs system. You may still have some adjustments but once the switch is made, things are back to normal. I would feed one back in the morning, one back in the evening for a week. After a week, I would alternate the evening meal with chicken quarters and backs. Keep feeding backs in the morning.

Pumpkin can be used as both a laxative or to help with to stop runny stools. A tablespoon per meal should help your dog check upI beg to differ, too much pumpkin will cause loose stools - it is very high in fiber.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Chicken quarters could be a whole meal because they have so much much meat on the bone. The problem with quarters, however, is that one will likely weight in between 1-2 lbs, aka the total amount you should be feeding per day and they are pretty hard to cut or break in half.

I think that you can continue with using the wings and ground turkey, since you already have it. As Laurie said, it's likely not the actual food you are feeding but the amount.

I wouldn't change anything yet but the amount you are feeding. Recalculate and feed 4%, as was recommended, with a bit of (plain!) canned pumpkin and see how things go. 

I would wait on OM since he's having such bad diarrhea and wait to get that under control before adding in OM. 

According to my excel sheet if you feed 4% of your pups current weight he should get 33.28 oz daily.

I break if up into 45% RMB, 50% MM and 5% OM so if you're using that scale it would come out to

RMB - 14.98 oz
MM - 16.64
OM - 1.66 (but don't actually add this yet.)

Keep us updated and good luck!


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for all your input! I bought a scale and have been measuring it out. I will hold off on oms. 

So the concensus is to keep my same food plan for now but adjust the amount? I am going home in a few minutes for his lunch walk and to see how he is doing. Can I just give him some pumpkin then? 

I could grab some chicken backs as well and try those. Do you think the ground turkey is okay? Or should I switch it to steak? Is one easier on the stomach than the other?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I would go with turkey over beef. I would feed beef - except hamburger - for a few weeks. Beef after Chicken, turkey, pork ribs, fish.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I agree. Just go with what you're doing. If you walk him and his poops are bad you can feed him a bit of pumpkin, I don't see why it can _oonnllly_ be fed with a meal. I used to just give it whenever.


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

Update on little guy:

Last night for dinner I went down to 4% his boyd weight, and dropped his rmbs down to 50, mms to 45 and haven't given om yet.

I gave him a chicken back, ground turkey, and a spoonful of pumpkin.

Needless to say, he woke me up at 2:30 am (kudos to him though for nicely licking my face until I got up







it was sweet) and we went outside .... massive diahareah. Not sure what to do ... maybe he just needs a day with pumpkin to adjust??


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## geneSW (Sep 25, 2009)

I just started out, so take it for what it's worth, but I don't find chicken quarters hard to cut in half at all. I've found that the trick is to cut into whatever bone is keeping you from going all the way through just a little bit (maybe 1/8th an inch, if that) and then flip the quarter over, place the blade on the bone, and gently smack the back of the blade. 1-2 hits and the bone usually makes a clean break for me.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Do not feed him for one day. Start him back on sticky rice and boiled chicken - small meals (spoon fulls) several times a day. When bowels are "normal" slowly introduce chicken backs. And do not over feed. 2-3% of normal weight is plenty - start at 2%. If you over feed - he will explode. It's that simple baring any medical issues (giardia, coccidia, worms, internal parasites, IBS, EPI, etc.).


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I would go at 1/2 to 3/4 pound per feeding after his tummy is settled. No organ meat until after the first month. Chicken backs, quarters, turkey necks, pork ribs, fish, rabbit, venison, beef.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Doc And do not over feed. 2-3% of normal weight is plenty - start at 2%.


*NOT FOR A PUPPY.*

Puppies need MORE than 2-3% of their weight.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

What about sticking to one protein source at first and slowly introducing new ones once you know your pup can handle it?

Also, how much MM did you give and how much RMB's? chicken quarters are usually pretty meaty and I only give a couple ounces of extra MM when feeding them.

Just some more thoughts...


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

Ahh! I went home at lunch to take him on his lunch walk and the second we got outside, more diahreah! I don't know what to do! When he ate K9 Kravings (also ate plenty of duck necks/turkey necks from time to time) he was fine. 

I won't feed him tonight ... unless I can just give him boiled chicken?? 

I'm giving 4% body weight = 50% Rmb, 45 %mm and no oms. I haven't give salmon oil or raw eggs either. 

Help!!! I feel so bad for my little guy!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Do not feed him at all for 12 hours after the last of the diarrhea then start him on either chicken and rice or burger and rice. Then I would put him back on the K9 Kravings. Once he's fully back to normal, then you can try to switch to raw again. 

At this age you have got to get the diarrhea under control fast. You might want to take a poo sample into the vet too as puppies frequently have worms.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Read the post carefully. It says 2-3% of their ideal weight. And if a puppy is blowing like the Mississippi River, I would not do anymore than 2% until the river stops flowing.

The % to feed is just a guide. You may feed more, you may feed less, depends on the dog. BUT, when a young dog runs the chance of dyhydration then it is best not to over feed and keep plenty of fluids in it.

Raw feeding is not rocket science. If it were me, I would have tests run specifically for giardia and coccidia. I would use Albon for coccidia and Panacur for giardia.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DocIt says 2-3% of their ideal weight.


I just want to add, that it is 2-3% of their ideal *ADULT* weight.


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

Okay. So I could either feed 2 - 3% of their adult weight, or 4 - 6% of their current puppy weight? 

Recon is 52 lbs ... I'm assuming his ideal adult weight will be 85? 

Last night I went home to go on our walk to the park, but my BF had already fed him turkey necks. Well .. he ate. But did not get sick. I thought ... just wait until morning. This morning's poop was closer to normal. I'm not sure whats going on?? He's eaten turkey necks/duck necks since we had him whenever we were out of his K9 ... I guess I will slowly introduce the mms and rmbs this time around.


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## Bcannie (Jul 8, 2009)

Besides going on ribs of pup etc. , what is the average desirable weight gain for a young pup (8 weeks) - 1/2 lb/day?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Turkey necks are good. I would feed rmbs until he is back to normal. Do not over feed. That will get you in trouble every time and its takes a long time for a pup to recover. That goes for treats too.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I would stick with what Lauri said: feed 4% of his current weight. She has fed TONS of dogs and puppies of all ages and sizes and is our Raw Guru here. I think trying to guess the adult weight is just way too hard.

When you fed K9 Kravings did you feed the chicken flavor? Maybe you should switch him to all turkey. Use turkey necks as his RMB, since he seems to do so well with them, and continue to use ground turkey as his MM. I think switching to one protein source would be good for him esp. because, like I said, he seems to be doing so well with the necks. 

Also, you said that when you were out of cravings you fed him turkey necks... was that _just_ turkey necks for the whole meal? Maybe your pup needs more than 50% RMB. 

So, you could either try switching to just turkey (necks and ground meat) or up his RMB amount a bit but only do ONE of these. That way, if something works, you know what it is!

Good luck! Keep us updated.


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## afurr (Mar 4, 2009)

I did the beef flavor with K9.

He seemed to be doing better on just turkey necks, so i added a little ground turkey (very little) and he did okay. Then I added a small chicken wing (very small) the next day and back to square 1. 

My thoughts: Stick to turkey for a week or so? Does that seem right? I'm dropping down to 3.5 % of hiss current weight until he seems a little better. 

Should I bump the amt of RMBs up?? 

I'm thinking about getitng another case of K9 just to help the transition along. Thoughts??


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

If you want to buy the Kravings, you could do that for one meal and try to raw for another (which would mean you'd feed 2% instead of 4%, since you're feeding him just once a day.)

I would stick with turkey and just turkey for his DIY raw meal for AT LEAST 2 weeks until his system is 100% settled and you are getting consistently good poops for a week or so. Get over that hurdle first. Give the percentages you have been using a week to see how he does with them, if nothing gets better than change it. It can be a hard transition for some dogs so you've got to give your pup time for his system to settle. If things don't look better in a few days or a week or so then I would start changing things up. 

Have you been adding a bit of PLAIN canned pumpkin to his meal? (I can't remember.) If not, add a spoonful or two of that in since it can aid with loose stools.

Keep us posted!


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