# Royal Canin Large Breed Formulas



## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

I was at a seminar at the dog club last night and two nutritionists were giving a talk on large dog nutrition. Neither are paid by any dog food companies, they are both university researchers.

We got to talking about non-sporting breeds and both were unanimous that Royal Canin made the best large breed foods on the market, including the GSD formula.

Thoughts?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> both were unanimous that Royal Canin made the best large breed foods on the market, including the GSD formula.
> 
> Thoughts?


Why? What is their opinion based on?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Why? What is their opinion based on?



The proper nutrient profile, manufacturing quality & control, very very high digestibility, kibble size. I have always thought the specialized breed diets were a bit cheesy but the science guys really like them I learned.

The label reads a little odd but they said the science behind this is very well thought out and the food shows excellent results, especially from an assimilation standpoint. There purpose for being at the hunt club had nothing to do with RC or any other food it was mostly about things like stress related hypoglycemia, etc.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> The proper nutrient profile, manufacturing quality & control, very very high digestibility, kibble size. I have always thought the specialized breed diets were a bit cheesy but the science guys really like them I learned.
> 
> The label reads a little odd but they said the science behind this is very well thought out and the food shows excellent results, especially from an assimilation standpoint. There purpose for being at the hunt club had nothing to do with RC or any other food it was mostly about things like stress related hypoglycemia, etc.


That didn't answer my question. What is _their_ definition of the proper nutrient profile and what is it based on? Where did they get _their_ information regarding manufacturing quality & control? Proof?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> That didn't answer my question. What is _their_ definition of the proper nutrient profile and what is it based on? Where did they get _their_ information regarding manufacturing quality & control? Proof?


Well listen. Both guys are Phd's from Penn, both are in their 50's so probably have 30 years experience each in animal nutrition. I will take their word that RC's research and ISO 9001:2001 Certification puts its near the top if not at the top in terms of quality control. 

As far as proper nutrient profile goes, this is not the first time I have heard a science mind say the RC's diets were good.

Take it for what its worth.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Take it for what its worth.


No thanks. I'd prefer to be educated and not just "take it for what its worth" (which isn't a whole lot without any actual information to back it up).


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> No thanks. I'd prefer to be educated and not just "take it for what its worth" (which isn't a whole lot without any actual information to back it up).



I don't think you are capable of that.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> I don't think you are capable of that.


:shocked: 

Sable, I've asked you at least a dozen times to provide studies or some kind of proof to back up your claims. You haven't once been able to give any kind of factual information to back up your arguments about food. "Taking it for what it's worth" simply because people appear to be in a position of prestige isn't going to cut it. 

I can assure you I am very capable of being educated and prefer to make up my own mind rather than taking someone's word for it. Now, if you'd like to provide some actual information and not just hearsay then maybe an intelligent conversation can be had by everyone on the board about canine nutrition.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> :shocked:
> 
> Sable, I've asked you at least a dozen times to provide studies or some kind of proof to back up your claims. You haven't once been able to give any kind of factual information to back up your arguments about food. "Taking it for what it's worth" simply because people appear to be in a position of prestige isn't going to cut it.
> 
> I can assure you I am very capable of being educated and prefer to make up my own mind rather than taking someone's word for it. Now, if you'd like to provide some actual information and not just hearsay then maybe an intelligent conversation can be had by everyone on the board about canine nutrition.


*Listen, the info was presented as a informal discussion with two highly thought of nutritionists. So take it for that value. How is it that you can scoff at RC but get all giddy about a Diamond product?* *Have you read the FDA reports on those plants?*

The only other food i know with that quality control certification is Natura.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

sable123 said:


> * How is it that you can scoff at RC but get all giddy about a Diamond product?*


 
Out of curiousity, what product do think I get "giddy" over?

And, for the record, I didn't scoff at any product. Just asked why these so called experts thought it was the bees knees. Apparently, you took their word at face value and didn't think to asky why.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

There is a sales person at Petsmart who is always pushing Nutro. Always saying studies prove its the best food available, best balanced nutrition, and if I listened long enough I'm sure he has scientific evidence to "prove" his claims.

*I* know the food is crap though.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

sable123 said:


> *Listen, the info was presented as a informal discussion with two highly thought of nutritionists. So take it for that value. How is it that you can scoff at RC but get all giddy about a Diamond product?* *Have you read the FDA reports on those plants?*
> 
> The only other food i know with that quality control certification is Natura.


Sorry sable, I think you're wasting your breath. You are going to have a tough time finding a study that will help you out in so far as a "best" brand is concerned. I've tried. A few years ago the SACCI group published a great report on dog food ratings (Royal Canin was one of the top brands based upon their study). That report is out of print. It happens that I loaned my hard copy to some one and never got it back.

We have been using the Royal Canin Brand for a very long time (from baby food up to adult). We have never had a problem as is the case with some of our fellow GSD breeder friends. I would suggest that gsdraven do a little homework and check out their web site - oh wait, that was dumb - the web site belongs to Royal Canin.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

EJQ said:


> I would suggest that gsdraven do a little homework and check out their web site - oh wait, that was dumb - the web site belongs to Royal Canin.


I can certainly read about Royal Canin on my own. My question was what these nutrionists that were giving a talk specifically on large breed nutrition had to say about what the proper nutrient profile was and how Royal Canin fit into that.

Maybe sable can at least tell us who these nutriton experts were so I can look up some of their research since sable doesn't remember what they said or how they came to that conclusion.

I didn't claim that Royal Canin was bad nor did I say any other food was better although I certainly have my opinions on that. I just wanted to know what made these experts say it was the best other than "they say so".


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> I don't think you are capable of that.


Why is it whenever someone asks you for documentation, even documentation you claim you have as you work in the pet food industry (your claim, not mine), instead of answering the question you choose to insult their intelligence?

My guess is you are either a troll or a corn broker.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Why is it whenever someone asks you for documentation, even documentation you claim you have as you work in the pet food industry (your claim, not mine), instead of answering the question you choose to insult their intelligence?
> 
> My guess is you are either a troll or a corn broker.


Hey I like these food chats.....I just pray I can find one my dog will eat, I may rename her " Kate" or Kate Moss


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's your own fault for humoring her. YOU caused her to be a picky eater! Just feed her corn! :rofl: btw...how is she feeling? I missed your other thread today.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Personally - Royal Canin has worked great for my CAT. She's a persian, very finnicky and when not fed the right food chooses to barf all over, have runny poops and poop in my bath tub. Not cool. 

As far as a dog food when I got Xander I looked into it - I thought "Oh, expensive must equal quality and it works great for the cat...WRONG!!!"

When I did some research on Royal Canin GSD formula I found the ingredients were CRAP. 

I could go through and list all the stuff I don't like with the food but I won't - I'll just let Dog Food Analysis do it for me. 

The food is rated 2 stars. 

Dog Food Reviews - Royal Canin Maxi German Shepherd 24 - Powered by ReviewPost

Pros:	First ingredient is a named meat product
Cons:	Insufficient meat content, low quality grain, controversial filler

The first ingredient in the food is a named meat product, in meal form. It is the sole significant meat product in the food, and our confidence that this product contains a decent amount of meat is low. Soy protein isolate boosts the protein content of the food, but this is low quality protein and soy is commonly associated with food allergies in dogs.


The main grain in the food is rice. Brown rice is a decent quality product, but brewers rice is a low quality grain and byproduct. Chicken fat is the fourth ingredient. We note that research at Purdue university has identified fat in the top four ingredients of dry food as a factor increasing the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. Smaller breeds are untested. Oatmeal is a decent quality grain, but Cellulose is “purified, mechanically disintegrated cellulose prepared by processing alpha cellulose obtained as a pulp from fibrous plant materials”: otherwise known as sawdust.


Beet pulp is controversial filler which appears to be used in large quantities in this food. It is a by-product, being dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is a controversial ingredient in dog food, claimed by some manufacturers to be a good source of fibre, and derided by others as an ingredient added to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats and causing stress to kidney and liver in the process. We note that beet pulp is an ingredient that commonly causes problems for dogs, including allergies and ear infections, and prefer not to see it used in dog food. There are less controversial products around if additional fibre is required. 


Glucosamine and chondroitin are added to this food, but not in any useful or meaningful amounts.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Why is it whenever someone asks you for documentation, even documentation you claim you have as you work in the pet food industry (your claim, not mine), instead of answering the question you choose to insult their intelligence?
> 
> My guess is you are either a troll or a corn broker.


Monsanto...MONSANTO!!!

Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals

LOL


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> It's your own fault for humoring her. YOU caused her to be a picky eater! Just feed her corn! :rofl: btw...how is she feeling? I missed your other thread today.


She will be ok, lol too bad I couldn't keep her on chicken and rice.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Well listen. Both guys are Phd's from Penn, both are in their 50's so probably have 30 years experience each in animal nutrition.


If I had a $1 for every idiot PhD I met who secretly pushed whatever research pushed their end goal I would be a very rich woman.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

My friends GSD's all lost their hair while on this food....coincidence maybe but it was kinda odd


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Michelle, I was wondering when you'd get here and bring reinforcements!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

sable123 said:


> I was at a seminar at the dog club last night and two nutritionists were giving a talk on large dog nutrition. Neither are paid by any dog food companies, they are both university researchers.
> 
> We got to talking about non-sporting breeds and both were unanimous that Royal Canin made the best large breed foods on the market, including the GSD formula.
> 
> Thoughts?



Here I quoted myself. Please read what I wrote. The purpose was to talk about nutrition and some common problems in larger hunting dogs like stress related hypoglycemia. As a side point after the Q&A, we just got on the topic of large breed dogs other than hunting dogs like Danes, Shepherds Rotties and all the dietary problems they have. Their professional opinion is that Royal Canin makes the best Large Breed Formulas on the market. They cited excellent research, world class production standards and the proper nutrient profile and ingredients for large breed dogs. I do not use RC products because I have hunting dogs and one GSD that I am babysitting.

These two guys did not come to talk about particular foods.

No proof or documentation is required. I find it shocking that such food elitists would use a Diamond food. I guess the FDA reports following the last disaster didn't make it to your desk. You should read them. There were many other problems beside aflatoxin.

OK?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Michelle, I was wondering when you'd get here and bring reinforcements!


:rofl: Sorry it took so long! It's been a busy day!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

But you have no point to even start a discussion. You have a vague description of the conversation. Why, in their opinion, does RC make the best large breed formula? What are they basing their opinion on? What were they comparing RC too? Who were the experts that were speaking? What research did they cite?

You are extremely frustrating. You make vague arguments with nothing to back up your comments. They aren't even facts that you are stating. Just vague hear-say comments. When asked for proof, that you claim you have because of your job, you call the person names and tell them they aren't capable of learning. If you can't provide the proof, then please provide the contacts so we can ask the people ourselves.



sable123 said:


> Here I quoted myself. Please read what I wrote. The purpose was to talk about nutrition and some common problems in larger hunting dogs like stress related hypoglycemia. As a side point after the Q&A, we just got on the topic of large breed dogs other than hunting dogs like Danes, Shepherds Rotties and all the dietary problems they have. Their professional opinion is that Royal Canin makes the best Large Breed Formulas on the market. They cited excellent research, world class production standards and the proper nutrient profile and ingredients for large breed dogs. I do not use RC products because I have hunting dogs and one GSD that I am babysitting.
> 
> These two guys did not come to talk about particular foods.
> 
> ...


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

sable123 said:


> Here I quoted myself. Please read what I wrote. The purpose was to talk about nutrition and some common problems in larger hunting dogs like stress related hypoglycemia. As a side point after the Q&A, we just got on the topic of large breed dogs other than hunting dogs like Danes, Shepherds Rotties and all the dietary problems they have. Their professional opinion is that Royal Canin makes the best Large Breed Formulas on the market. They cited excellent research, world class production standards and the proper nutrient profile and ingredients for large breed dogs. I do not use RC products because I have hunting dogs and one GSD that I am babysitting.
> 
> These two guys did not come to talk about particular foods.
> 
> ...


You say "they cited excellent research".

Did they just say there is excellent research that exists or did they specifically cite the research material in their claim that Royal Canin is the best thing since sliced bread?

Personally, I don't use a Diamond food right now. I also don't use Royal Canin. 

The reason I don't use diamond is that there are better foods that I can afford and if I had to cut my dog food budget then I know which foods I would consider and Diamond, for me, isn't one of them at this time. 

If I was going to downgrade my dogs food I would go with something Kirkland/Costco or Nutra Nuggets. 

Now, I think Nutra Nuggets and Royal Canin are not the best food but they're by no means the worst. 

However, for the price that Royal Canin charges for their food I could buy more of an equal food for less.

So, would I feed Royal Canin if I had to...Yes, but no. Yes because it's not the worst food out there but no because the price is absurd. 

So, ultimately - no I wouldn't unless the price or ingredients changed.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

GSD_Xander said:


> You say "they cited excellent research".
> 
> Did they just say there is excellent research that exists or did they specifically cite the research material in their claim that Royal Canin is the best thing since sliced bread?
> 
> ...


They said that the research Royal Canin does is excellent. I suppose they like the science behind the Large Breed foods. Royal Canin was the first company to market a Large Breed food. 

Oh by the way, Kirkland is a Diamond product and so is Nutra Nuggets.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

But WHY is the research excellent? Because they SAID so? WHY do they like the science? They just do? Well, from now on, the sky is orange. Why? Because I say so, and I have 24 years experience looking up at it every day, so it must be true.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

sable123 said:


> They said that the research Royal Canin does is excellent. I suppose they like the science behind the Large Breed foods. Royal Canin was the first company to market a Large Breed food.
> 
> Oh by the way, Kirkland is a Diamond product and so is Nutra Nuggets.


I know they said the research was excellent but where is the actual unbiased research? 

Royal Canin may have been the first company to market a LB formula but that doesn't make it the best. 

I know Diamond had some recalls and you're right Kirkland is made by Diamond but...I would still buy it before Alpo. 




Larien said:


> But WHY is the research excellent? Because they SAID so? WHY do they like the science? They just do? Well, from now on, the sky is orange. Why? Because I say so, and I have 24 years experience looking up at it every day, so it must be true.


No. No. NO!!! 

When I looked earlier the sky was clearly chartreuse with a light scattering of puce clouds. 
:wild:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

The ingredients in RC are average at best and I don't need to be a top scientist in pet nutrition to know that. 

It's very grain heavy with rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn, and wheat as main ingredients, so i'm not too sure how anyone, let alone top nutritionists, could consider this food with all of these grains a top diet for a carnivore....:thinking:

Sable, I do find your posts to be very amusing at times, but if you're going to make statements like this, you're going to need some kind of proof to back it up. 

No one is going to take your word for it that you were at some seminar with the top nutritionists with years of experience and they all said blah blah blah. You need some kind of proof or facts to back this up if you want anyone to even start to take your posts and threads seriously.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> The ingredients in RC are average at best and I don't need to be a top scientist in pet nutrition to know that.
> 
> It's very grain heavy with rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn, and wheat as main ingredients, so i'm not too sure how anyone, let alone top nutritionists, could consider this food with all of these grains a top diet for a carnivore....:thinking:
> 
> ...


Ok let's do this . Every time you (or someone else) for that matter recommend Orijen or TOTW are any other grain free food, please included a PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED STUDY showing that GF is better than a grain-inclusive formula. Also, the next time you (or someone else) tells another poster that grains cause allergies and cannot be digested please provide the link to a PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED STUDY showing this. Also, the next time you (or someone else) states that raw feeding is better please provide a link to a PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED STUDY showing this.

I cannot take your opinion seriously. You have one dog and live in Connecticut and apparently have no formal education or training in science, let alone animal nutrition.

Is that a deal?

Oh I forgot tell you one thing. With the exception of that one in a million dog that might have a wheat gluten allergy. Your dog really has no idea whether the amino acids came from a grain or meat. There is no little sensor in the dogs tummy that says DANGER DANGER DANGER GRAIN PROTEINS ARE COMING.

I am not advocation a vegetarian diets I am just saying some ingredients compliment meat based amino acids.

So do we have a deal? Every time you post with an opinion, whether it is yours or someone else's, you, Lucy Dog from CT, must provide a PEER REVIEWED STUDY.

By the way, the opinions of these people carry more weight than your because obviously they have used this product:

PETCO.com - Royal Canin MAXI Canine Health Nutrition German Shepherd 24 customer reviews - product reviews - read top consumer ratings

[


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> The ingredients in RC are average at best and I don't need to be a top scientist in pet nutrition to know that.
> 
> It's very grain heavy with rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn, and wheat as main ingredients, so i'm not too sure how anyone, let alone top nutritionists, could consider this food with all of these grains a top diet for a carnivore....:thinking:
> 
> ...


Lucy, when you have time, please calculate the caloric breakdown of this food to prove that it is "grain heavy". Also, please show me the PEER REVIEWED STUDY showing why this is problem and why protein from a potato is preferable.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

I love these kinds of threads, I just sit back and try to figure out who's right, who's wrong, does he have a point? Does she have a point? Good times.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

How come, if they cited excellent peer reviewed research, are you not providing us with that excellent peer reviewed research?

You specifically said you are believing them because they provided "proof" so to speak. So, why not provide people here with the "proof" so they can decide for themselves?

You push certain foods and link things like food manufacturer's that insist that HD is not genetic. Those are the only real things that I've seen come from you, and they don't do much to support your stance.


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## MrsMiaW (Sep 25, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

All I'm basing my opinion on is the ingredient list and the manufacturer who produces this food since I'm not one of your well renowned dog nutritionist that you have yet to mention who they even are, I'll do my best here with my little Doggie U education.

Dogs are carnivores. Personally, I like to feed a food that has ingredients like: 

Meat, meat meal, meat meal, carb, meat, meat meal, carb, carb, meat, meat, fat and then even more meats as the ingredient list goes on 

Or

Meat meal, grain/carb, grain/carb, fat, grain/carb, grain/carb, flavoring (why even needed?), meat meal, soy and no more meats to follow.

I'm not one of your anonymous top nutritionist, but I'm going on what I personally prefer to feed my carnivoreS (yes, sable, i do have more than the one dog. I just choose to put the one GSD I own in my signature and leave the others out. I do live in Connecticut though. 

I have fed grains and actually still do continue to feed a grain inclusive food to one of my dogs. I've actually even fed Royal Canin to my ONE gsd from connecticut at one point and did not like it. It's not the fact that there are grains in RC that makes me say that it's an average, at best, food. It's the average, at best, ingredient list that comes with this food.

I'm not starting threads saying Orijen or TOTW or grain free diets are the best out there. You're the one doing that here, but for royal canin. When you start a thread saying something like this, i'd expect to see a little evidence to back up that statement of yours.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:rofl: There is no point regarding any brand of dog food in this thread.

Here's the point, as stated in the original post...

Synapses:
An unknown person, who never once has backed up any claim made, claims to have gone to a meeting where they had another person talking about a dog food.

Point:
Some unknown person thinks RC is a great food.

Unknowns:
Scientific basis that it is a great food?
Who thinks it's a great food?
What are their credentials?

Such a shame that a statement gets made and instead of proving why it is correct so we can all learn something, the people asking questions are told they are to stupid to learn. So what is learned in these posts? Only that the OP can't be taken seriously in anything that is said.

I could start a post saying that feeding grass clippings to dogs is the best food. Why? Oh, well, left the scientific facts on my desk so can't provide them right now. Then redirect, and evade, the subject by calling people names.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

In other news, I went to a baby nutrition seminar last week. It was great. 

They had a few speakers there with over 30,000 years combined in baby nutrition. All of the speakers unanimously agreed that feeding a diet of cheese puffs and dorritos was the absolute best and most well rounded diets that you can feed a baby.

I can't really mention who these baby nutritionist are, but I can assure you they hands down the best in the business. Dorritos and Cheese Puffs are the way to go.

Thoughts?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> In other news, I went to a baby nutrition seminar last week. It was great.
> 
> They had a few speakers there with over 30,000 years combined in baby nutrition. All of the speakers unanimously agreed that feeding a diet of cheese puffs and dorritos was the absolute best and most well rounded diets that you can feed a baby.
> 
> ...


Brilliant!


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## blord (Feb 14, 2009)

sable123 said:


> I was at a seminar at the dog club last night and two nutritionists were giving a talk on large dog nutrition. Neither are paid by any dog food companies, they are both university researchers.
> 
> We got to talking about non-sporting breeds and both were unanimous that Royal Canin made the best large breed foods on the market, including the GSD formula.
> 
> Thoughts?


 

I must be missing something here. When I read Sable's initial post I just thought that he/she was at some club and some researchers said they believe that RC is the best food for our dogs. Then he/she asks for our thoughts on that. I'm assuming that maybe people have some past issues with Sable, but have none of you ever had someone tell you that they thought something was the best? Did you jump all over them looking for scientific proof? I have been on here asking what people thought the best food was, as have hundreds of others. I don't think anyone asked for proof. Again, I don't know Sable from a hole in the wall, but I just don't see the reasoning for completely jumping down someone's throat for that post. In other words, can't we all get along??? Everyone needs to relax!:hug:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

blord said:


> I must be missing something here. When I read Sable's initial post I just thought that he/she was at some club and some researchers said they believe that RC is the best food for our dogs. Then he/she asks for our thoughts on that. I'm assuming that maybe people have some past issues with Sable, but have none of you ever had someone tell you that they thought something was the best? Did you jump all over them looking for scientific proof? I have been on here asking what people thought the best food was, as have hundreds of others. I don't think anyone asked for proof. Again, I don't know Sable from a hole in the wall, but I just don't see the reasoning for completely jumping down someone's throat for that post. In other words, can't we all get along??? Everyone needs to relax!:hug:


He does this kind of thing all the time. Makes threads or posts that are typically against the grain (nothing wrong with that at all), but doesn't really have anything to back up his claims other than "so and so" told him so.

He's not a fan of orijen, diamiond (neither am i), or pretty much anything grain free. He has a few decent brands that he backs, but some of the companies he backs makes some pretty outrageous claims that you can't really take seriously. I think they claim something along the lines of ... feed our food and your dog will not develop hip dysplasia. I mean... come on.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I have no problem with him making all the recommendations he wants, it's a public forum, this is why we're here. I actually like sables' post, in an amusing kind of way. He definitely stirs the pot. 

My issue with this specific thread is he's starting a thread, making a claim that some of the best dog nutritionist all agreed that RC is the best diet for a dog. Who are these nutritionist? What was this seminar? Who are you and what kind of eduation in dog nutrition do you have, if any? 

He continues to start threads like this putting down foods and saying that xyz brands are the best and when someone questions his expertise, he puts them down, and basically says he knows better with nothing to back up anything. This is a pretty common occurrence.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

MrsMiaW said:


> opcorn:


Yep...I fold. 





Lucy Dog said:


> In other news, I went to a baby nutrition seminar last week. It was great.
> 
> They had a few speakers there with over 30,000 years combined in baby nutrition. All of the speakers unanimously agreed that feeding a diet of cheese puffs and dorritos was the absolute best and most well rounded diets that you can feed a baby.
> 
> ...


OMG I almost fell off the chair from laughing so hard!!!


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

I see science diet as on of the worst and over rated dog food made today. Why? Well first off whole ground corn is not what you think, it is the whole corn, nob and shuckings included. Chicken by-product meal is everything left over that nobody else well take. Corn gluten meal is even a lower grade than Ground Whole Grain Corn. Corn is extremely hard for a dog to digest which can lead to problems in many dogs. I wish you luck if your feeding this, because there really is no meat in this product and or any other ingredients that are good for dogs. Having a stool stiffener as the No. 5 ingredient should tell you something about this dog food. And check into Animal Fat and Soybean Oil.


Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Liver Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Soybean Oil, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Fish Oil, Potassium Citrate, Iodized Salt, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Natural Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, vitamins (L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Vitamin E Supplement, minerals (Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, L-Carnitine, 
Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

Science Diet Puppy Large Breed Dog Food

The Dog Food Project - Ingredients to avoid


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

lucy dog said:


> he does this kind of thing all the time. Makes threads or posts that are typically against the grain (nothing wrong with that at all), but doesn't really have anything to back up his claims other than "so and so" told him so.
> 
> He's not a fan of orijen, diamiond (neither am i), or pretty much anything grain free. He has a few decent brands that he backs, but some of the companies he backs makes some pretty outrageous claims that you can't really take seriously. I think they claim something along the lines of ... Feed our food and your dog will not develop hip dysplasia. I mean... Come on.
> 
> ...


*You are absolutely correct !!!*


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## Lora (Jan 7, 2011)

perhaps you all might find this interesting - 

Pet Food Report - A Consumer's Guide to Pet Food


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## henryeli (Aug 25, 2010)

I have been feeding my 5 month old pup royal cannin since i got him as per the breeders recommendations. I went to a different pet store today and found they did not carry royal cannin. The folks inside seemed to know there product very well and have me a 2 lbs bag of orijin dog food for free and said if your dog likes it, please come back. I came home and did soem research on the food since they stated it was so much better than royal cannin. I found royal cannin to be at the bottom of the list when reveiwed by an independant company for dog food. This was do to the wheat content and meat fillers. Please check out this site, the 6 star foods is where the orijin is listed and the 1 star food is where royal cannin is listed. I thought the reveiws were based on facts, not fiction. You be the judge. Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

henryeli said:


> I have been feeding my 5 month old pup royal cannin since i got him as per the breeders recommendations. I went to a different pet store today and found they did not carry royal cannin. The folks inside seemed to know there product very well and have me a 2 lbs bag of orijin dog food for free and said if your dog likes it, please come back. I came home and did soem research on the food since they stated it was so much better than royal cannin. I found royal cannin to be at the bottom of the list when reveiwed by an independant company for dog food. This was do to the wheat content and meat fillers. Please check out this site, the 6 star foods is where the orijin is listed and the 1 star food is where royal cannin is listed. I thought the reveiws were based on facts, not fiction. You be the judge. Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost


I think it's a two star food not that it matters. The ingredients are not that great.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Lora said:


> perhaps you all might find this interesting -
> 
> Pet Food Report - A Consumer's Guide to Pet Food


That page looks like something put together by a pet food manufacturer....nothing much useful there.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

sable123 said:


> I was at a seminar at the dog club last night and two nutritionists were giving a talk on large dog nutrition. Neither are paid by any dog food companies, they are both university researchers.


I have been a research assistant at a major research university and am working on achieving a doctorate. Nothing animal science-related, but I do know how research at universities works. A _lot_ of the research done at universities is funded by companies that sell products. 

In the field of athlete nutrition, we have been told for years that athletes MUST have a liquid meal of protein and carbohydrate within 30 minutes after training in order to see optimal results. Those studies were funded by companies that make post-workout shakes.

Researchers need grants to continue their research, and not all of the money is donated by well-meaning private citizens.

I'm not anti-Royal Canin, but I am skeptical of just about everything.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I have been a research assistant at a major research university and am working on achieving a doctorate. Nothing animal science-related, but I do know how research at universities works. A _lot_ of the research done at universities is funded by companies that sell products.
> 
> In the field of athlete nutrition, we have been told for years that athletes MUST have a liquid meal of protein and carbohydrate within 30 minutes after training in order to see optimal results. Those studies were funded by companies that make post-workout shakes.
> 
> ...


Are your referring to muscle glycogen replacement? With dogs, it has been proven to replace muscle glycogen faster. However, it has limited utility in that at some point "fat adaptation" begins as the animal burns fat in the aerobic phase. 

I am aware that some companies fund research, buy lunch for the students and give them promotional back-packs but these particular guys don't take money from RC.

I agree with you about making your own decisions and being skeptical, but people should also be skeptical about Canadian companies that only a few years ago were making supermarket and convenience store brands. I don't see any questioning there at all, only unconditional and irrational admiration. Reminds me of how people thought Obama was God's gift to mankind just a few years back. I think as time goes on people spending $70 a bag for food will realize they could have spent half for the same thing. And believe me when Orijen is sold to P&G, they won't be spitting the proceeds with you.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

WOW, every dog show I attend, I go to many just to wander and see dogs/vendors/etc, and at every one some manufacturer rep is there with statistics to prove theirs is the best food, I even take a look at the the research, and it all sounds true and good so would be changing foods constantly except, I do my own research,
do check out the dog food review, and I don't think everyone should feed the same. If it works for you and you and your pet are happy go with it, I don't need to prove myself by trying to turn everyone's mind to agree with mine. However if everyone wants to send me $5 I will share the best brand and research to prove it, PS let me know what you are currently feeding and if you have any problems, ahahahahahahh


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm not for grains or agains them, all I want is for my dog to eat SOMETHING and be healthy. I do often think back 20 years ago when we had these dogs that ate garbage and lived a very long life.

I am slowly comming to the conclusion that "raw" seems to be the best and there are not too many people that are having the problems that the kibble feeders are having.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

And sable, you're STILL not providing people with the reaserach you keep talking about that was SO good and thought out.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> I'm not for grains or agains them, all I want is for my dog to eat SOMETHING and be healthy. I do often think back 20 years ago when we had these dogs that ate garbage and lived a very long life.
> 
> I am slowly comming to the conclusion that "raw" seems to be the best and there are not too many people that are having the problems that the kibble feeders are having.


Don't be so sure of that. There is something called "cognitive dissonance" that effectively blocks a person from seeing the truth. My vet just had to euthanize a puppy because the pup's bones were so weak it could not walk. The owners were sure that what they were doing was the best thing for the puppy. It was being fed a raw diet.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Wow. Are you serious? Prove that story is even true. And even if it was, you honestly believe that the puppy eating a raw diet actually caused his bones to be weak? Really? Unbelievable.

On it's worst day, raw is better than RC.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

sable123 said:


> Don't be so sure of that. There is something called "cognitive dissonance" that effectively blocks a person from seeing the truth. My vet just had to euthanize a puppy because the pup's bones were so weak it could not walk. The owners were sure that what they were doing was the best thing for the puppy. It was being fed a raw diet.


 
I am just going by what I read on this board, it appears to me that the raw fed gang are healthier? It's just the way it seems to me that's all. Sable, I do think you have a lot of knowledge when it comes to food but I also think there are many others on here that know a lot as well, Lisa seems to be knowledgeable as does LaRen, Jax, and many others have gave me input that has so far been very helpfull, maybe a different set of views but I take what I can and what makes sense to me and apply it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> Don't be so sure of that. There is something called "cognitive dissonance" that effectively blocks a person from seeing the truth. My vet just had to euthanize a puppy because the pup's bones were so weak it could not walk. The owners were sure that what they were doing was the best thing for the puppy. It was being fed a raw diet.


Unless the people were feeding a RAW diet completely inappropriately, this is a load of crap to blame it on the RAW diet. 

And why was your vet sharing another persons private information with you? I would like to see proof that feeding a RAW diet appropriately would cause weak bones.

You really need to start providing proof for some of your outrageous claims.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

sable123 said:


> Are your referring to muscle glycogen replacement? With dogs, it has been proven to replace muscle glycogen faster. However, it has limited utility in that at some point "fat adaptation" begins as the animal burns fat in the aerobic phase.


I wasn't trying to draw a nutritional parallel with dogs, just to point out that university researchers (unfortunately) aren't always unbiased and are often funded by commercial companies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> I don't see any questioning there at all, only unconditional and irrational admiration. Reminds me of how people thought Obama was God's gift to mankind just a few years back. .


What does President Obama have to do with Royal Canin?

What a leap to make that analogy.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

If RAW was that awful for your dog our companions wouldn't have made it long enough for kibble to be invented. :rofl: Even to this day, growing up in the country (Where dogs are not "pets", they are there to work.) not many people feed their dogs kibble. Typically, the dogs eat whatever is left over from the table during breakfast, lunch and dinner. They might get thrown a handful of kibble if there aren't enough scraps to go around but for the most part, they eat what would otherwise go in the garbage of a home who's been tricked into believing "table scraps" are harmful. Funny how they thrive and yet aren't being fed from a bag that says "complete and balanced".


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> If RAW was that awful for your dog our companions wouldn't have made it long enough for kibble to be invented. :rofl:


Thank YOU! What do people think dogs did before the invention of manufactured dog food? :headbang:

How many wolves, coyotes, foxes, have weak bones? And I'm sure they don't have diets as good, or as consistent, as our dogs since they have to kill or scavage to eat!


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

every time I'm feeling down and the world is a little gray, I know all I have to do is get on gsd forums and start reading the comics called threads it like watching the jerry springer show.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Thank YOU! What do people think dogs did before the invention of manufactured dog food? :headbang:
> 
> How many wolves, coyotes, foxes, have weak bones? And I'm sure they don't have diets as good, or as consistent, as our dogs since they have to kill or scavage to eat!


You really are very naive about this. Don't assume that everyone with a puppy knows how to feed a raw diet.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

sable123 said:


> You really are very naive about this. Don't assume that everyone with a puppy knows how to feed a raw diet.


...What came first then, the puppy or the dog? :thinking: 



For Duke:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable123 said:


> You really are very naive about this. Don't assume that everyone with a puppy knows how to feed a raw diet.


I know...and I'm not capable of learning either. 

You really don't read posts very well because I plainly stated the people would have had to feed it inappropriately.

But really, your story is just hearsay. Didn't they try to adjust the puppies diet to adjust the calcium before euthanizing? Was there definitive proof that it was the diet that caused the weak bones instead of disease? Your story is just missing so many pieces. 

Sorry, I had a puppy that was severely malnourished when we got her. Her bones are just fine. Many severely malnourished dogs and puppies go on to live perfectly normal, healthy lives. So unless they did testing and ruled out genetic and bone diseases, your vet and you are just blowing smoke. It's pretty obvious from your post history that you are dead set against a RAW diet.

And I'd still like to know why your vet is sharing private information with you. That's pretty unprofessional.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Here are the ingredients of the MAXI Large Breed:

Ingredients: Chicken meal, rice, brown rice, corn gluten meal, oatmeal, chicken fat, natural chicken flavor, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), rice hulls, salt, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, dried egg product, dried brewers yeast, glucosamine hydrochloride, Vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), biotin, D-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, niacin supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), riboflavin (vitamin B2) supplement, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], Trace Minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, sodium selenite, calcium iodate], chondroitin sulfate, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols (source of Vitamin E) and citric acid, rosemary extract.

Here is the link to the nutritional profile:

http://products.royalcanin.us/media/619/maxi_large_breed_adult_25_info.pdf

What is Natural Chicken Flavor? Could that have MSG in it? It is possible and I know with seizure dogs that is a big no no to give - I give nothing with "natural" flavors of any kind....I can't take the chance.

The PDF from RC states:

100% Complete and balanced Nutrition: MAXI LARGE BREED ADULT is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO (Association of Feed Control Officials) Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for maintenance.

That is what all adult dog foods say and even senior dog foods say - if there was a specific Large Breed Nutrient profile then I think there would be an AAFCO guideline for that. To me any of the GSD, Large Breed, Mini Breed, etc... are more "marketed" products - when they all must meet the adult maintenance profile.

What they don't show online with these formulas are the % of minerals, omegas, vitamins, etc... in the food. Nor do they talk about consistency - cause I've seen formula changes, difference in kibble sizes and textures.

Interestingly we have gone back to the Kumpi due to Jack's seizures - which his last seizure (5 of them) was on January 2. He has been on Kumpi since the 3rd of January I believe plus his phenobarb and doxy. And when we opened the bags of food - it looked and smelled exactly as it had the prior times we used it. No difference in color, shape, smell or quality. And I had no problems going straight to it - their poo was fine. He is doing very good on his food and I can trust it.

Kumpi posts an as fed nutrient profile.....

http://www.kumpi.com/pdf/nutrients_adult.pdf

It would be good if RC did the same thing.

I have tried RC GSD brand before - dogs did okay but not great - poo was more green on RC GSD. I know that RC is owned by Mars - so is Nutro and Pedigree and Whiskas. Jack seized on some Pedigree Plus canned food....so I don't really trust any ingredient that goes into Mars products for dogs and cats. Plus Nutro has had many problems but continue to talk about quality - so.....I don't buy all the quality talk when one of the parent companies other firms consistently appear to have issues from what I have read online.

It would be good to know what research the PhD's were referencing. I always like to listen with an open mind about different products and technologies as well, where the ingredients are sources, what kinds of testing are done on them and determine if I can trust them. Remember - RC had recalls in 2007 as well too.

I even switched my cats back to KumpiKat because the Iams kibble changed shape, smell and color and they said "no changes".....I don't trust that. The KumpiKat bag - just like the dog food - same smell, kibble size, etc.... cats went right back to eating it. And no issues - no throwing up....just ate the food like it was their long lost buddy.


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

chance-lol haha!


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