# GSDs vs the BCs



## wolfy dog

Today I watched an agility competition and was just wondering if there has ever been a GSD who beat the Border Collies.
I am planning on doing this with Deja. I loved seeing the GSDs work, precisely and consistently but not fast.
I am not competitive at all, so far, but was wondering why the BCs don't have a league of their own 
As long as we both make it through the course I would be happy.


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## JakodaCD OA

depends on what your competing in, at the national levels/higher you've got some really tough competition out there. While there are some 'fast' german shepherds, I have always found the way to beat the bc's are when the bc's mess up

When I first did agility way back in the late 90's, my gsd that I competed with beat some border collie butt , usually tho when the bc's messed up . But then again, I was in a 24" classes, and at the time, alot of borders were in the 20" classes. Back then, agility was pretty new, there were many more gsd's than you see today competing, mostly shelties and aussies/borders were just coming into it, The dog I ran, was a rescue, very leggy not heavy bodied, she was ranked #4 in the akc rankings in 99 and 00..Loved that dog, she taught me everything 

It's fun, and such a rewarding experience to share with your dog, whether you get a ribbon or not


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## d4mmo

Down here in oz some of the bc and kelpies are down right amazing quick. At a agility trial there was a kelpie that made a small female mal look slow. 
The comp bc and kelpies you see weigh less then 40 pounds. Much more light and compact than a gsd. Some are seriously crazy high energy drive, which is why some of the best agility dogs come from shelters.

Most agility courses I have seen are better suited to smaller breeds anyway


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## Moriah

d4mmo said:


> Down here in oz some of the bc and kelpies are down right amazing quick. At a agility trial there was a kelpie that made a small female mal look slow.
> The comp bc and kelpies you see weigh less then 40 pounds. Much more light and compact than a gsd. Some are seriously crazy high energy drive, which is why some of the best agility dogs come from shelters.
> 
> *Most agility courses I have seen are better suited to smaller breeds *anyway


I started nose work with my 7-month boy which is right up a GDS's alley. Nose work is something he excels at and the BC smaller size and hyper-drive are not an "advantage" in nose work like it is in agility. 

I read somewhere that fly ball was originally designed as an activity for BCs to expend energy. Bcs are an impressive breed, but I could never live with one.

Simon and I enjoy the activity of nose work together and that's what counts. We both have so much fun!!


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## DJEtzel

It's not uncommon for a well trained GSD to beat a border collie. I'm anticipating Patton giving Recon a run for his money. Typically they don't compete against each other in the same height category, but it does overlap sometimes.


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## wildo

JakodaCD OA said:


> depends on what your competing in, at the national levels/higher you've got some really tough competition out there. While there are some 'fast' german shepherds, I have always found the way to beat the bc's are when the bc's mess up


THIS. When Pimg was running agility, she would often beat about half the BCs in the pack based on course time. Sometimes, she'd beat ALL the BCs based on course time. Most of the time, however, that a GSD beats a BC- it's indeed because the BC messed up. It's equally true that this greatly depends on the venue you compete in. A GSD can be reasonably competitive in CPE (and DOCNA, though I know little of it). AKC, NADAC, and especially USDAA- it's going to be very rare indeed for a GSD to come out on top of the BCs. 



DJEtzel said:


> It's not uncommon for a well trained GSD to beat a border collie. I'm anticipating Patton giving Recon a run for his money. Typically they don't compete against each other in the same height category, but it does overlap sometimes.


It's very uncommon, actually. That's why the BC is the dominant breed in agility, not the GSD. Given equal training, the BC should win every time. They are faster, lighter, more agile right "out of the box." It takes a special GSD to hang with the BCs. What does "special" mean? Well, for one- the BC is always in a full sprint between obstacles. This is not the norm for a GSD- they are made to trot, not sprint. So for one, a "special" GSD is one who is running hard between obstacles. Secondly, a BC has very strong acceleration. Once completing a jump wrap or whatever, the BC is back up to sprint speed extremely quickly. Again- not the norm for the GSD. When a sheep gets loose in tending, the GSD may gallop over there to re-establish a parameter. The BC sprints back over there to initiate "the stare" -the hunt. By nature, the BC simply moves much faster than the GSD. So the special GSD is one who can turn on this required speed in order to be competitive. This is rare in GSDs. That's why you only see one or two at a trial of hundreds of Border Collies. It's rather disingenuous to say it's "not uncommon" for the GSD to beat out BCs regularly.

They also will often compete against each other as most BCs jumping 26" in USDAA will be jumping 24" in CPE and AKC.


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## wildo

Wolfy_dog:

Here's a GSD regularly competing in USDAA and doing well. Patty is from Oregon, and her dog Tory is REALLY awesome. I met them in 2011 and was blown away by Tory's speed. Very nice- totally rare:






At the 2011 Cynosport event (USDAA Nationals) there were four GSDs I was able to spot, but let's double that to be safe- 8 GSDs. Three of them were running in the 9+ year old event (don't recall the name, essentially a "seniors" division). There were over 600 BCs there. How do you think the GSDs faired? Point is- it's definitely uncommon. You have something awesome if your GSD can hack it with the BCs.

And don't forget Tang! :wub:

I don't know if Marisa ever competed in USDAA with Tang, but Tang has remained one of the quicker GSDs out there for sure winning at least one (if not more) GSDCA Nationals (an AKC event)






I think I'd also have to point out Suka v Sapphire Moon (owned by a forum member, who I regrettably have forgotten her name). Suka _definitely_ has that same attitude that Tang does. You can tell from the video that she walks on to the course thinking "I got this. I will win this. I will beat everyone." SUPER fun to watch:





Tory, Tang, and Suka are definitely my list for fastest GSDs in agility. I think these dogs are literally exceptional! :wub:

...But beating BCs every time, or even what you might call "HIGHLY" competitive? I think not. There's a reason soooooo many people doing agility get a BC. Now, are these GSDs "highly competitive _for a GSD_?" Without question.


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## wolfy dog

Impressive!! I wonder how healthy this is for their structure though and in what shape they are when they are 9 - 9 years old.


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## wildo

Personally, I think it's only a concern if you go out there unconditioned, or if you're starting out with a medical issue/condition. Just like you'd never just hop off the couch and run a marathon. Most of us doing agility spend a LOT of time in conditioning/strengthening/working balance in our dogs. And then on top of that, I'm finding it more and more common for people to do chiropractic work, acupuncture, massage, or even laser-- and I'm talking about on their dogs. A physically fit dog, even a larger one like a GSD should have a nice long career.

Pimg is out of the game due to a single piece of bridging arthritis in her last vertebrae which is causing some pinched nerve issues. This pinching of the nerves has caused massive muscle wasting and extreme instability. Unfortunately, it's really set in strong over the last couple months and she's no longer cleared for agility. That said, she had a bridge there when we started doing agility- this was a genetic disorder, and not really a result of actual agility. Similarly, people get their dogs OFA'd or Penn Hip result in both hips and elbows before starting agility. (And shame on you if you don't.) In the end, I think agility dogs are generally very well taken care of. The impact from agility should be minimal. 

Just last weekend my agility instructor posted a video of her 14.5 year old BC running a course. He may be deaf, but he's still awesome! Take care of your dog, and you shouldn't have too much impact from agility (unless you're already starting with a condition, as I mentioned).


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## Blitzkrieg1

Different dogs for different purposes. Sad people are breeding them for this.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Breeding for what? :thinking: A well bred GSD should be athletic and agile - why shouldn't such a dog do well in the sport?


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## RebGyp

Wildo, Thanks for the videos, I totally enjoyed them, especially the weave poles.
I have dabbled in agility, just the the fun of it. Great for building confidence.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Breeding for what? :thinking: A well bred GSD should be athletic and agile - why shouldn't such a dog do well in the sport?


Comon you know very well that there are some people breeding GSDs for agility.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Comon you know very well that there are some people breeding GSDs for agility.


I do? Sorry, but you're wrong about that. Perhaps you can enlighten us all.


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## wildo

So what if they are? It takes all kinds to make the world go round. Honestly, I'd like to see a smaller, lighter, faster GSD. Show me these breeders... I'm interested in such a GSD!


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## kbella999

wildo said:


> Pimg is out of the game due to a single piece of bridging arthritis in her last vertebrae which is causing some pinched nerve issues. This pinching of the nerves has caused massive muscle wasting and extreme instability. Unfortunately, it's really set in strong over the last couple months and she's no longer cleared for agility. That said, she had a bridge there when we started doing agility- this was a genetic disorder, and not really a result of actual agility.


So sorry to hear about Pimg Willy. I know how hard it is to retire them. She had a great career in agility thanks to you.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lol I dont have the time or inclination to find one for you. There was someone on this very forum with some hotshot agility dog that was planning on breeding it if I recall correctly.


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## martemchik

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Breeding for what? :thinking: A well bred GSD should be athletic and agile - why shouldn't such a dog do well in the sport?


Agile at 80 lbs is different than agile at 50 lbs. Its like comparing a wide receiver to a running back. Two different body types, both can be considered agile, but it will be a different level. Smaller dogs have the ability to get up to speed faster and turn quicker, no matter what you do to a GSD it won't be able to turn as quick as other breeds.

You can basically say this about some breeds bigger than the GSD that are also supposed to be agile and athletic. Just because the standard calls a dog that, doesn't mean there is something else out there that's better.

I think a small, female GSD would be able to compete pretty well. My bitch is crazy agile and quick. She can do a lot of things my male just can't do, but that's mostly due to the 25 lbs he has on her and the fact that he's just that much longer and taller.

Blitz is right...someone was breeding a hot shot agility dog. There was a long discussion on it because the dog only had agility titles and there was some aggression issues with the dogs in its pedigree.


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## martemchik

As much as the AKC sports are "all breed" there will always be breeds more successful than others. Obedience is much easier with a GSD, BC, or golden than it is with the other breeds and those are the dogs that win more often than not. They're made for that stuff. Agility, is better suited for a medium/small dog than it is for large dogs. 

This is like throwing a BC into an IPO trial and wondering why it can't compete...

And on top of all that, the majority of serious sport people that are GSD people, do IPO, not agility. Where as for BCs, those serious folks focus on agility. So there is just more of them, while the majority of our breeds top workers are in the sport that's meant for them.


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## DJEtzel

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol I dont have the time or inclination to find one for you. There was someone on this very forum with some hotshot agility dog that was planning on breeding it if I recall correctly.


If we're thinking of the same dog, Wildo has had plans to buy one of her puppies for the same purpose.


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## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Different dogs for different purposes. Sad people are breeding them for this.


I know right? They should all just do bitework and protection, since that is the only thing that makes them a GSD.


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## Jax08

People do breed dogs with the intention of bettering them for their sport. Shelties that look like Pomeranian's. BC's that can't herd. German Shepherds that are smaller and faster. 

Just a fact of life as a human.


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## martemchik

llombardo said:


> I know right? They should all just do bitework and protection, since that is the only thing that makes them a GSD.


That's not the point. The point is, agility isn't a good test of the breed standard. When you breed for the traits they look for in agility, you start to lose other things that are important in the breed standard. You will also over look the negative things that might not make that dog the best breeding prospect due to the great success in the one venue.

I've heard that with border collies they've lost a lot of the nerve when they just breed the agility dogs for about 3 generations. They've realized they need to bring back the herding dogs to give the dogs an off switch and stronger nerves.

IPO is a lot more than just protection. Maybe heading out to a training session one day will show you that.


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## wildo

blah, blah, blah. That's why I rarely post here anymore. You're worse than Bible thumpers. Breed standard thumping... ...in the agility forum? Comical. How about all of you with working IPO dogs post up your "stellar" examples of equal length scapula and humerus. Yeah.... that's what I thought. As long as they have a genetically deep bite though, right? You can pick and choose what parts of the standard you like for IPO, but **** anyone else who wants to try something different. 

Nobody said agility was the end all, be all breed test.

"Shoulder blade and upper arm are of equal length, and firmly attached to the trunk by means of powerful musculature. The angulation from shoulder blade and upper arm is ideally 90°, but generally up to 110°."


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## martemchik

With your great agility dog that beats every BC you run up against I'm surprised you don't have a MaCh on that thing already.

I've heard plenty about your agility dogs strong nerves...maybe if you worried more about that than how fast it can go over a jump you'd be able to avoid those issues.


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## Jax08

Well, this is a GERMAN SHEPHERD forum so why wouldn't people preach the standard? What an odd thing to object. And as far as GSD's in agility, there are many that meet the standard. Where is Maggie Rose Lee? Those are Wildhaus dogs.

But I don't think there is any denying that when people breed for one or two traits they lose many other traits that make the breed desirable. That goes for all breeds in all venues.


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> But I don't think there is any denying that when people breed for one or two traits they lose many other traits that make the breed desirable. That goes for all breeds in all venues.


If only we could require that breeds do everything well before being bred, right? 

Sadly, something is always going to be left out that is important to a group of people. Just buy what you're interested in and make good examples of them. 

eta; _Personally_, (there's a sarcastic elitist attitude here!) my shunned mongrel will have a MACH soon and IPO titles out the butt so he will make me all of the money. Best of both worlds, yo.


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## Jax08

:thinking: I never said they had to do everything well. Did not even imply that.

Nor do I think you can breed for every trait in one breeding but breeding for one or two and ignoring the rest will ruin the breed as a whole. ANY breed. 

So, no, I don't agree with 'just buy what you are interested in'. I do think think that a person should buy a breed that is suited for what that person wants and not try to conform the breed to a persons interest.


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## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> eta; _Personally_, (there's a sarcastic elitist attitude here!) my shunned mongrel will have a MACH soon and IPO titles out the butt so he will make me all of the money. Best of both worlds, yo.


huh?


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> :thinking: I never said they had to do everything well. Did not even imply that.
> 
> Nor do I think you can breed for every trait in one breeding but breeding for one or two and ignoring the rest will ruin the breed as a whole. ANY breed.
> 
> So, no, I don't agree with 'just buy what you are interested in'. I do think think that a person should buy a breed that is suited for what that person wants and not try to conform the breed to a persons interest.


I was agreeing with you...


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## wildo

martemchik said:


> With your great agility dog that beats every BC you run up against I'm surprised you don't have a MaCh on that thing already.
> 
> I've heard plenty about your agility dogs strong nerves...maybe if you worried more about that than how fast it can go over a jump you'd be able to avoid those issues.


Is this directed at me? As proudly displayed in my signature, my dog DOES have her MACH equivalent for the venue we competed in. I've never said she beats "every BC we run against" though I have said she's beat Border Collies that annual do extremely well at Cynosport every year. And I have the score cards to prove it. Based on the fact that I just picked my dog up from the vet this morning, after undergoing surgery last night- I have no interest in discussing with you her _medical_ issues relating to her ability to process and handle stress.


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## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> I was agreeing with you...


ohhhh...missed the sarcasm! I'm going back to my own little world now. With Adam Levine


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## wildo

So the real fact is, wolfy_dog, if you happen to have a special GSD that actually can beat those BCs, as you asked in the original post- in reality you'll just be shunned by the IPO elitist who will pick and choose what part of the standard they want to apply to your dog. "Super fast, agile GSD? Well- they must have  for nerves then!" "Super fast, agile GSD? Will they must not be able to bite anything!" 

The answer to your original post is- yes, there are GSDs out there that can, and sometimes do, beat the BCs at agility. But you don't hear about them much because they aren't the 95 pound, deep biting, helper killers...


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## RocketDog

Jax08 said:


> ohhhh...missed the sarcasm! I'm going back to my own little world now. With Adam Levine


And what a fine world that be.


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## LaRen616

opcorn:


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## Jax08

oh brother....


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> ohhhh...missed the sarcasm! I'm going back to my own little world now. With Adam Levine


Haha it's alright. My sarcasm is usually missed. Don't hog him though!!


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## martemchik

You seem heavily focused on the physical parts of the standard while the discussion should be more about the temperament part. Super fast? That's not in the standard, not quite sure how objective you can be when "super" is the adjective you decide to use. Agile? Your venue has decreased the jump height and the angle of the obstacles because too many people complained their dogs couldn't handle it. 

You talk about IPO like someone that clearly has no idea what it is. You're focusing on deep bites and not realizing it's more about the nerve it takes to face a helper/threat and react properly to that threat. Then have the nerve and clear head to listen to the handler and still show spectacular obedience and restraint even when the greatest reward is out on the field.

Maybe you should spend some time in both venues, instead of just spewing your chosen information that you've clearly read on this forum from other people like you who are just as clueless about what the sport entails. Your arguments would sound a lot more credible if you weren't clearly speaking in incorrect generalizations that aren't from your own personal experience.


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## wildo

martemchik said:


> Maybe you should spend some time in both venues, instead of just spewing your chosen information that you've clearly read on this forum from other people like you who are just as clueless about what the sport entails. Your arguments would sound a lot more credible if you weren't clearly speaking in incorrect generalizations that aren't from your own personal experience.


Oh the irony.


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## martemchik

I've done agility...so no irony.


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## DJEtzel

martemchik said:


> I've done agility...so no irony.


You're in AKC on your way to a MACH with Rooney, right?


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## wolfy dog

OK, it would be nice to stop polluting this thread with all the negative, defensive and offensive comments.
Deja is from very stable working lines but is just not the over sized GSD. She is 10 month old and weighs 57 pounds. Light built, speed and good temperament can go together. Yes, she has a lot of (prey) drive and a good bite and yes, she'll be good in agility if I can keep up with her.
In sailing regattas they use handicaps so variuos types of sail boats can fairly compete at each other. I just thought something like that could apply to BC (give them a few handicap points). No, I am not talking about handicapping the dog!! 
(* preventing this thread from going downhill again)


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## DJEtzel

What!? You don't think it's fair to trip the BC owners walking into the ring so that their game is thrown off?


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## MilesNY

Wolfy dog, why? Unless you are kidding. I own border collies and GSDs, I do agility and IPO. I compete with myself and if we are good enough I will take my female to GSD agility nationals one day, but I don't expect her to beat very competitive border collies. Just as I don't expect border collies to beat good GSDs in IPO. I guess I just don't care in a way, my goal is always the fastest clean run I can put together and I can title without winning a class.... (And with any luck we will win a few when the BCs mess up. ;-) )


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## Blitzkrieg1

llombardo said:


> I know right? They should all just do bitework and protection, since that is the only thing that makes them a GSD.


 
Dont worry there are plenty of cull/pet quality GSDs being produced. We will never run out. Often the whole litter even :wub:.


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## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> blah, blah, blah. That's why I rarely post here anymore. You're worse than Bible thumpers. Breed standard thumping... ...in the agility forum? Comical. How about all of you with working IPO dogs post up your "stellar" examples of equal length scapula and humerus. Yeah.... that's what I thought. As long as they have a genetically deep bite though, right? You can pick and choose what parts of the standard you like for IPO, but **** anyone else who wants to try something different.
> 
> Nobody said agility was the end all, be all breed test.
> 
> "Shoulder blade and upper arm are of equal length, and firmly attached to the trunk by means of powerful musculature. The angulation from shoulder blade and upper arm is ideally 90°, but generally up to 110°."


Im curious Wildo, you seem really serious about agility. You sound like you want to win not just show up for a ribbon. If you want to play with the big boys buy a big boy toy and have done with it. Its like people who show up at IPO with a doberman or bulldog. They are there to have fun but the liklihood of seriously competing?..

Instead of running to the first person breeding their cull that jumps clean and fast why not get a BC and have done with it?


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## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> So the real fact is, wolfy_dog, if you happen to have a special GSD that actually can beat those BCs, as you asked in the original post- in reality you'll just be shunned by the IPO elitist who will pick and choose what part of the standard they want to apply to your dog. "Super fast, agile GSD? Well- they must have  for nerves then!" "Super fast, agile GSD? Will they must not be able to bite anything!"
> 
> The answer to your original post is- yes, there are GSDs out there that can, and sometimes do, beat the BCs at agility. But you don't hear about them much because they aren't the 95 pound, deep biting, helper killers...


You dont hear about them much because they are rare anamolies that in most cases have not achieved anything of note in venues designed to test the GSDs character and physical ability. I dont give a hot **** about the "written" standard. My only question is can the dog work? 
I dont care about structural frills. Getting through an agility routine doesnt tell me much about what the dog is. Iv seen plenty of nervy dogs that can be trained to run an abstacle course.

Why would you want a handicap Wolfy Dog? Whats the point of winning if you were only able to achieve that with a handicap?


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## wildo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Instead of running to the first person *breeding their cull that jumps clean and fast* why not get a BC and have done with it?


Isn't that cute. You have a way with words, don't you. That actually might be the most offensive thing I've read in this forum... Because the GSD could only possibly do bitework, right? Because if I wanted to do, say, HGH herding- it wouldn't make sense to find a strong herding line, right?


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## wolfy dog

MilesNY said:


> Wolfy dog, why? Unless you are kidding. I own border collies and GSDs, I do agility and IPO. I compete with myself and if we are good enough I will take my female to GSD agility nationals one day, but I don't expect her to beat very competitive border collies. Just as I don't expect border collies to beat good GSDs in IPO. I guess I just don't care in a way, my goal is always the fastest clean run I can put together and I can title without winning a class.... (And with any luck we will win a few when the BCs mess up. ;-) )


I agree. My initial thread was "just wondering". I am by no means hard core competitive although winning is fun .


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## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> Isn't that cute. You have a way with words, don't you. That actually might be the most offensive thing I've read in this forum... Because the GSD could only possibly do bitework, right? Because if I wanted to do, say, HGH herding- it wouldn't make sense to find a strong herding line, right?



What would you know about bitework beyond what you read on here? 

How common are those? Most herding tests are a joke these days. Some dog chasing sheep around a ring..lol. Iv owned sheep, the reality is herding sheep does not test the nerve of a dog like fighting a man does. 

We are talking about breeding dogs here, I dont pull punches or critisizm when I talk about those.


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## wildo

Yeah- funny, I thought we were talking about running GSDs in agility. But you've made it well and clear that the only possible reason to own a GSD is to test it's nerve through fighting a man. All else is utter nonsense and a waste of a good dog. Must be boring living in such a lame world of constant nerve testing to make sure your dog is "good enough."


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## martemchik

wildo said:


> Isn't that cute. You have a way with words, don't you. That actually might be the most offensive thing I've read in this forum... Because the GSD could only possibly do bitework, right? Because if I wanted to do, say, HGH herding- it wouldn't make sense to find a strong herding line, right?


Why are you so caught up on the bite work?!?! You know there are two other phases of schutzhund right? And even in the protection phase, the control and obedience part is the most important part...not the grip and bite. In IPO1 there are THREE grips...yup, a whole three, and yet you keep talking about the bites. It just proves more and more you have zero understanding of the sport or what the point of it is, where the information about the dog comes from, and what people that know actually look at. A grip...is very easy to develop and train, and it's even easier when a dog is bred with it. It's the other stuff that surrounds the bites that is the hard part and proves the temperament of the dog.

Trust me, you can't get any of that information from a dog running 12 weave poles.


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## wildo

You guys are so ignorant. Why are YOU so caught up on bitework, or IPO? This is an agility forum. The question was asked if any GSDs have ever been fast enough to beat out BCs. YOU are the ones who brought up IPO and agility not "testing" the dog. YOU are the ones saying that IPO is the "only" thing a GSD should possibly ever do- and all else is garbage waste of time. YOU are the ones questioning why anyone would ever possibly want to run agility with their own unique breed of choice. GTFO out if you don't want to talk about GSDs in agility. Nobody asked if agility tests the dog for a breeding program.

Here's a novel idea- how about someone wants to run agility with a GSD because they _like to._

[EDIT]- and if you attack my dog (martemchik) with some BS comment about nerves- **** straight I'll respond and defend her. Has your dog competed at the national level??


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## RocketDog

"I don't give a hot **** about the written standard" 


Well well well. I think there are many "cull/pet" breeders who feel the same. 

Isn't that interesting.


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## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> Yeah- funny, I thought we were talking about running GSDs in agility. But you've made it well and clear that the only possible reason to own a GSD is to test it's nerve through fighting a man. All else is utter nonsense and a waste of a good dog. Must be boring living in such a lame world of constant nerve testing to make sure your dog is "good enough."


 
Reading comprehension issues? I blame the schools.. 

I dont care if you own a dog to dress it up like a fairy princess and put it in a baby carriage. Have at it.

When we start talking about the fairy as a breeding prospect then things can be taken seriously.

Since some people need everything spelled out...

I merely implied in my first post that it doesnt really matter that GSDs can't hang with the BCs. They are different dogs that should remain different. Breeding either to be more similar to the other has no good outcome. 

Yes it takes a lot of nerve to fight a man..thats why so few can do it.. convincingly.

Dont get all hurt I wish you well in your dog jumping adventures.

I would also like for you to point out were I said a GSD can only do IPO? Im having memory troubles....


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## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> "I don't give a hot **** about the written standard"
> 
> 
> Well well well. I think there are many "cull/pet" breeders who feel the same.
> 
> Isn't that interesting.


 
Actually many culls and their breeders are well within written standards as they are interpreted today. Isnt that interesting...lol.


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## martemchik

I have run agility...I'm not sure what your point is. I didn't like it. I brought up why there aren't that many GSDs in agility. It's because serious sport people that have GSD are 95% of the time going to do IPO. Where as serious BC people do agility. So it's a numbers game. You'll always have more of them than GSD.

At the same time, I pointed out how that breed is built better for agility, and no matter how much you try, smaller/medium sized dogs will always be better at agility than a larger, longer GSD. I love that people still run GSDs in agility, but the point is, you're not going to out gun the BC. Then, someone else brought up how athleticism and agility are in the breed standard, so why can't the GSD be better at it...and that's how this morphed into a discussion about the breed standard. Not sure where you were during that time...

Unfortunately, saying that success in agility alone is a good enough reason to breed and make more excellent BC beating GSDs is wrong in my opinion. And it's also one step away from saying rally titles are enough, or a CGC is enough, or maybe, the dog just excels at being a pet, so why not breed it to make more awesome pets...since that one proved its amazing at laying on a couch all day and we need more GSDs that just want to lay on a couch all day.

This is a discussion about why one breed is better at a sport than another, and there's just no reason to change our breed and lose very important traits so that it can win in a venue that it wasn't designed to compete in anyways.

The way I look at it...if you want a highly competitive GSD for agility, you're likely to find that from a pair of dogs that have been tested through IPO. If you want a dog that is competitive, or even able to do schutzhund, a pair of highly successful agility dogs don't guarantee that in the least bit. And if you cant comprehend that, well then I'm sorry for you.


----------



## RocketDog

So by all means, let's ignore it. 

Small minds always think the "rules" don't apply to them. Or is it narssicistic minds?


----------



## wildo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I merely implied in my first post that it doesnt really matter that GSDs can't hang with the BCs.


It's funny that your entire argument hinges on what YOU feel doesn't matter. It doesn't matter for YOU, therefore, it shouldn't matter to _anyone._ See, you had to bring in this breeding nonsense in order to bash a sport you don't seem to enjoy. I didn't read anywhere in this thread where someone mentioned that a dog completely meeting the breed standard, and well capable of doing well in IPO, with strong nerve, good tracking ability, great obedience, and strong bites- that that dog couldn't _also_ be capable of beating Border Collies at agility. No, you instead need to bring in your elitist IPO attitude and slam agility implying that only "cull" dogs could do it, because they ultimately washed out of the "real" sport.

Breeding strong dogs has nothing to do with the question that was asked. You brought that argument in as a way to bash a specific breeding, and a specific sport. Isn't there something going on in the IPO forum you could talk about?


----------



## Steve Strom

I don't really have an opinion on breeding, or any real knowledge to be honest, but I'll admit I'd like to try agility and dock diving too with my young dog. I like what I see from the dogs that do both.

Maybe a little perspective would help with the discussion. Running agility courses has been covered by people who've done it, how about Blitz and Chik, you guys share some of your trial experiences? Something in IPO? A BH or something?


----------



## Jack's Dad

RocketDog said:


> So by all means, let's ignore it.
> 
> Small minds always think the "rules" don't apply to them. Or is it narssicistic minds?


I vote for small minds and narssicistic.

My two culls are laying here proving nothing. What a failure.


----------



## DJEtzel

Wait, wait, wait. Hold up boys. Can we get Hunter in here, too?


----------



## RocketDog

Lmao. Teach them how to fetch a beer from the fridge. Then they're at least justified.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> So by all means, let's ignore it.
> 
> *Small minds* always think the "rules" don't apply to them. Or is it narssicistic minds?


I bow to your superior experience in this area. 

Maybe I should follow the rules and produce some hiking buddys that can go up and down metal stairs! I can just see the website now..I know the litter would sell out too...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> I vote for small minds and narssicistic.
> 
> My two culls are laying here proving nothing. What a failure.


 
Are you breeding them?


----------



## LaRen616

This is like a royal rumble!


----------



## Jack's Dad

RocketDog said:


> Lmao. Teach them how to fetch a beer from the fridge. Then they're at least justified.


Even worse failure, I don't drink! Which proves I'm not macho enough for IPO. My wife and I actually did agility for fun. That's" FUN" for those who don't understand it.


----------



## RocketDog

Oh yes. Because you've spent all of 5 minutes in the breed. 

Those who have nothing to reply with always try to throw the strawman argument to divert from their pile of **** they just laid. 


Continue. It's quite entertaining. Kind of like the drunk idiot at the bar who keeps hitting on the girl that clearly has no interest.


----------



## RocketDog

jack's dad said:


> even worse failure, i don't drink! Which proves i'm not macho enough for ipo. My wife and i actually did agility for fun. That's" fun" for those who don't understand it.



no fun. I dont give a hot **** about fun.


----------



## DJEtzel

I'm pretty sure none of the men here know what fun is. lol


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> It's funny that your entire argument hinges on what YOU feel doesn't matter. It doesn't matter for YOU, therefore, it shouldn't matter to _anyone._ See, you had to bring in this breeding nonsense in order to bash a sport you don't seem to enjoy. I didn't read anywhere in this thread where someone mentioned that a dog completely meeting the breed standard, and well capable of doing well in IPO, with strong nerve, good tracking ability, great obedience, and strong bites- that that dog couldn't _also_ be capable of beating Border Collies at agility. No, you instead need to bring in your elitist IPO attitude and slam agility implying that only "cull" dogs could do it, because they ultimately washed out of the "real" sport.
> 
> *You are clearly very upset that I dared infringe on your agility discussion. *
> *Here is the deal it doesnt matter that BCs cant do IPO as well as GSDS. And it doesnt matter that GSDs cant hang with BCs in agility. *
> 
> *Should it matter because you want it to? *
> 
> Breeding strong dogs has nothing to do with the question that was asked. You brought that argument in as a way to bash a specific breeding, and a specific sport. Isn't there something going on in the IPO forum you could talk about?


Threads change, I can think of very few that stayed within the original bounds of the OPs question..lol. Deal with it.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

LaRen616 said:


> This is like a royal rumble!


Right!! loving it! were in the world is sue to throw down now?


----------



## LaRen616

*Cheers* fight, fight, fight, fight, fight!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> Oh yes. Because you've spent all of 5 minutes in the breed.
> 
> Those who have nothing to reply with always try to throw the strawman argument to divert from their pile of **** they just laid.
> 
> 
> Continue. It's quite entertaining. Kind of like the drunk idiot at the bar who keeps hitting on the girl that clearly has no interest.


LOL, how about I post a vid of my training and you post a vid of yours. 

Tell us about your experience!

Make sure you mention the stairs, your doggy can go up and down!

NERVES of STEEL..:wild:.

Im sorry none of the sober boys bothered to hit on you when you were younger. You know what they say about beers and attraction .


----------



## RocketDog

I'm just here to light the dynamite. Whenever there's arrogance and narcissism, a bat signal appears. Once that fuse is lit, I just throw it back and the problem takes care of itself.


----------



## Steve Strom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> LOL, how about I post a vid of my training and you post a vid of yours.
> 
> Tell us about your experience!
> 
> Make sure you mention the stairs, your doggy can go up and down!
> 
> NERVES of STEEL..:wild:


Post something from a trial. Show how all that training held up. That'll really teach her!!


----------



## RocketDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> LOL, how about I post a vid of my training and you post a vid of yours.
> 
> Tell us about your experience!
> 
> Make sure you mention the stairs, your doggy can go up and down!
> 
> NERVES of STEEL..:wild:


I'm not the one posting on every thread telling people how it is, has been, and ever should be in every area. All before I've even spent 3, maybe 5 years in he breed! (Or is it high school... Hmmm)


----------



## RocketDog

Steve Strom said:


> Post something from a trial. Show how all that training held up. That'll really teach her!!


You know, I like very few people. You're kind of growing on me. Like a nice comfy fungus. :wub:


----------



## wildo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You are clearly very upset that I dared infringe on your agility discussion.
> Here is the deal it doesnt matter that BCs cant do IPO as well as GSDS. And it doesnt matter that GSDs cant hang with BCs in agility.
> 
> Should it matter because you want it to?


Well, we agree on one thing- "infringe" is right. The question in the OP was simple. Have there been GSDs who beat the BCs. Yes there have. And it matters to the people who own those GSDs because they are accomplishing something not normally seen. When the big dog is capable, and often does, beat out the BC in agility- it matters. It might not matter to YOU, but it matters to some. I'm sure those bringing Pitties, Rotties, and Dobes to IPO feel the same way (and I'm sure you make it a point to tell them how their accomplishments don't _matter_ either- you know, since they don't have a big bad GSD and all). But I guarantee you it matters to them. Your attitude of demeaning those who want to try to accomplish something cool with a pet of their choice is so arrogant and such nonsense. Yes, threads do change- especially when someone wants to come in and bash the topic the thread was founded on. Good job there...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Steve Strom said:


> Post something from a trial. Show how all that training held up. That'll really teach her!!


 
Lol stevie stop fishing. The dog is to young for IPO 1 but there are training vids up you can see. Also, there are people on here you can ask about my training as they have seen it in person .


----------



## RocketDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> LOL, how about I post a vid of my training and you post a vid of yours.
> 
> Tell us about your experience!
> 
> Make sure you mention the stairs, your doggy can go up and down!
> 
> NERVES of STEEL..:wild:.
> 
> Im sorry none of the sober boys bothered to hit on you when you were younger. You know what they say about beers and attraction .



atshead:

Maybe you'll be lucky enough to see me from afar someday. :-*


----------



## wildo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> NERVES of STEEL..:wild:.


No, that's nerves _*on*_ steel!  Steel stairs, that is.


----------



## RocketDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol stevie stop fishing. The dog is to young for IPO 1 but there are training vids up you can see. Also, there are people on here you can ask about my training as they have seen it in person .




Yep. I've actually talked to people about your training who've seen it.


----------



## Steve Strom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol stevie stop fishing. The dog is to young for IPO 1 but there are training vids up you can see. Also, there are people on here you can ask about my training as they have seen it in person .


Fishing? I thought I was trolling hazie??


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> Well, we agree on one thing- "infringe" is right. The question in the OP was simple. Have there been GSDs who beat the BCs. Yes there have. And it matters to the people who own those GSDs because they are accomplishing something not normally seen. When the big dog is capable, and often does, beat out the BC in agility- it matters. It might not matter to YOU, but it matters to some. I'm sure those brining Pitties, Rotties, and Dobes to IPO feel the same way (and I'm sure you make it a point to tell them how their accomplishments don't _matter_ either- you know, since they don't have a big bad GSD and all). But I guarantee you it matters to them. Your attitude of demeaning those who want to try to accomplish something cool with a pet of their choice is so arrogant and such nonsense. Yes, threads to change- especially when someone wants to come in and bash the topic the thread was founded on. Good job there...


Your issue is you cant seperate yourself from your emotions and look at things objectively. Im not talking about personal importance Im talking about does it matter from a breed perspective.

Actually I congratulate anyone who comes on the field and puts out a decent product be it a poodle or a Rottie. 

Here is the kicker, it doesnt matter if their offbreed sucks at IPO because its not a venue designed to test or compete with their choice of breed. It MIGHT matter to them personally but it means nothing from a breed perspective. 
A Poodle that is cant do IPO means nothing interms of whether or not the Poodle is ideal or not.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I wish some adults would return to the forum.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

rocketdog said:


> yep. I've actually talked to people about your training who've seen it.


 
ahahahahahaha


----------



## Steve Strom

RocketDog said:


> You know, I like very few people. You're kind of growing on me. Like a nice comfy fungus. :wub:


Ha, of all the places you guy's go, and I'm like a fungus on you????


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Steve Strom said:


> Fishing? I thought I was trolling hazie??


I like you stevie. One day we will probably meet and you can tell people if its all BS, its a small doggy world and Iv been getting around more lately.


----------



## Steve Strom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I like you stevie. One day we will probably meet and you can tell people if its all BS, its a small doggy world and Iv been getting around more lately.


Its an open invite hazie. Just send me a pm.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> I'm not the one posting on every thread telling people how it is, has been, and ever should be in every area. All before I've even spent 3, maybe 5 years in he breed! (Or is it high school... Hmmm)


Lol cant get over the fact that at my age Iv done more and forgotten more about dogs then you have ever learned? 

Guess what I went on a hike last week with my doggys. I thought to myself finally Im at Rockets level. It took several years but I finally got there.


----------



## wildo

Wait... so GSD accomplishment in agility shouldn't matter to me because the GSD isn't the ideal breed for agility? You would think that we could all bask in accomplishments of the elite agility GSDs since, you know, we all love GSDs. (Opps... not those cull GSDs though. Those ones are worthless and their accomplishments worthless)

You congratulate anyone who comes on the field and puts out a decent effort? Ohhhhh... right, the _schutzhund_ field. My mistake. Decent effort on the _agility_ field doesn't matter.


----------



## DJEtzel

All joking and fighting aside, please tell me "Hazie" is a real nickname.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

wildo said:


> Wait... so GSD accomplishment in agility shouldn't matter to me because the GSD isn't the ideal breed for agility? You would think that we could all bask in accomplishments of the elite agility GSDs since, you know, we all love GSDs. (Opps... not those cull GSDs though. Those ones are worthless and their accomplishments worthless)
> 
> You congratulate anyone who comes on the field and puts out a decent effort? Ohhhhh... right, the _schutzhund_ field. My mistake. Decent effort on the _agility_ field doesn't matter.


Once again for the reading impaired.. What matters to you does not necessarily matter to the breed. 
Actually the PSA field, the AKC OB field, and yes the agility field. 

I think your serious about agility Wildo and have accomplished things there, good for you. Its speaks well to your dedication and ability to train a dog. 
It doesnt matter though if you cant hang with the top end BCs. It doesnt say anything about your dog good or bad or even you.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Once again for the reading impaired.. What matters to you does not necessarily matter to the breed.
> Actually the PSA field, the AKC OB field, and yes the agility field.
> 
> I think your serious about agility Wildo and have accomplished things there, good for you. Its speaks well to your dedication and ability to train a dog.
> It doesnt matter though if you cant hang with the top end BCs. It doesnt say anything about your dog good or bad or even you.


Do all the dogs titled in IPO matter to the breed?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> Do all the dogs titled in IPO matter to the breed?


No, 90% of them I wouldnt feed but Im a narcissist.


----------



## RocketDog

Steve Strom said:


> Ha, of all the places you guy's go, and I'm like a fungus on you????


How about a nice moss then?


----------



## RocketDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol cant get over the fact that at my age Iv done more and forgotten more about dogs then you have ever learned?
> 
> Guess what I went on a hike last week with my doggys. I thought to myself finally Im at Rockets level. It took several years but I finally got there.


I don't think so. He can spell and use proper punctuation.


----------



## martemchik

The whole point of sport is the competition, to see who's the best of the best and which genetics should be passed. For people that have been around the sport, it's not hard to see the difference between the "real" dogs this forum holds in such regard, and the "sport" dogs that people that read the forum seem to poopoo all the time. Anyone that's actually done the sport, will give respect to any handler and dog that does it no matter what kind of dog they have currently.

So the difference when comparing a GSD to a BC in agility and a GSD to anothe GSD in IPO is that the first comparison means nothing in regards to how good of a GSD it is when compared to its breed and therefore shouldn't really be a goal of a breeder right? It's not bettering the breed in that case, it's trying to be better than a different breed...

So of course not all IPO dogs are important to the breed, but what is important is that people are testing their dogs, their potential breeding stock, and giving others the chance to see the dog in action so that they can make their own opinions about those dogs. Something that's much better done through IPO due to the broader spectrum of the sport than any other sport currently out there.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> I don't think so. He can spell and use proper punctuation.


 

Lol your last bastion... predictably grammer and spell check. 

At that point we know you have nothing more in the tank. Its not like you ever did but..there you go :hug:. 


Your a he? Thats ok too .


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> The whole point of sport is the competition, to see who's the best of the best and which genetics should be passed. For people that have been around the sport, it's not hard to see the difference between the "real" dogs this forum holds in such regard, and the "sport" dogs that people that read the forum seem to poopoo all the time. Anyone that's actually done the sport, will give respect to any handler and dog that does it no matter what kind of dog they have currently.
> 
> So the difference when comparing a GSD to a BC in agility and a GSD to anothe GSD in IPO is that the first comparison means nothing in regards to how good of a GSD it is when compared to its breed and therefore shouldn't really be a goal of a breeder right? It's not bettering the breed in that case, it's trying to be better than a different breed...
> 
> So of course not all IPO dogs are important to the breed, but what is important is that people are testing their dogs, their potential breeding stock, and giving others the chance to see the dog in action so that they can make their own opinions about those dogs. Something that's much better done through IPO due to the broader spectrum of the sport than any other sport currently out there.



So which is it, sport or breed test?

If sport then competition and high scores rule.

If breed test then it should be pass/fail.

High scores don't guarantee like offspring.

Breeding high scores to high scores will eventually wind up with negative characteristics just like any other traits repeated often enough.


----------



## RocketDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol your last bastion... predictably grammer and spell check.
> 
> At that point we know you have nothing more in the tank. Its not like you ever did but..there you go :hug:.
> 
> 
> Your a he? Thats ok too .



*you're

And really. Now you're just copying. Since I'm the one that initially called you out for trying to bring my dog into this discussion as a strawman. Surely you can be more original.


----------



## Mister C

Summarizing some of the more memorable quotes from this thread:



DJEtzel said:


> I'm pretty sure none of the men here know what fun is. lol


 Hey! I resemble that remark.




RocketDog said:


> How about a nice moss then?


 Have you ever met a nice moss? I've always been pretty suspicious about mosses. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Your a he? Thats ok too .


NO. I'm a Who.


----------



## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> So which is it, sport or breed test?
> 
> If sport then competition and high scores rule.
> 
> If breed test then it should be pass/fail.
> 
> High scores don't guarantee like offspring.
> 
> Breeding high scores to high scores will eventually wind up with negative characteristics just like any other traits repeated often enough.


Read what I wrote. It's about watching it and making your own opinions on what's important. It gives people the opportunity to see and make those decisions. Not just depend on someone that claims to have experience and know more than you so their breeding decision is automatically a good one.

If you go observe, you will see the difference between a highly prey driven dog with weaker nerve and one that has strong nerves. You can also then use that information for breeding decisions to get the balance you want or keep trying to get more of a certain drive out of the future generations.

Look around, no one will fault a breeder for not breeding to the high in trial at nationals, but they do at least want to see that the dog did pass the test and got the title.

Your comment about high scores, basically shows how much you read and how little you get out and see what's actually being bred and trialed.


----------



## MamaofLEO

*GSDs v. BCs*

I just spent a half hour reading through these comments and my only addition is.."meow!" 


:rolleyes2:


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Read what I wrote. It's about watching it and making your own opinions on what's important. It gives people the opportunity to see and make those decisions. Not just depend on someone that claims to have experience and know more than you so their breeding decision is automatically a good one.
> 
> If you go observe, you will see the difference between a highly prey driven dog with weaker nerve and one that has strong nerves. You can also then use that information for breeding decisions to get the balance you want or keep trying to get more of a certain drive out of the future generations.
> 
> Look around, no one will fault a breeder for not breeding to the high in trial at nationals, but they do at least want to see that the dog did pass the test and got the title.
> 
> Your comment about high scores, basically shows how much you read and how little you get out and see what's actually being bred and trialed.


And your comments regularly show how arrogant you are.

Well between you and Blitz I guess the breed is in real good hands.

Does anyone wonder why so many don't post any more or have just left the site?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

RocketDog said:


> *you're
> 
> And really. Now you're just copying. Since I'm the one that initially called you out for trying to bring my dog into this discussion as a strawman. Surely you can be more original.


Your so clever :laugh:. 
Ill let you have the last word I know it makes you feel as if you know what your talking about. 
Just remember your dogs training is the meter stick by which we can determine what your knowledge...so probably best if you hid the training . How old is he now?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> And your comments regularly show how arrogant you are.
> 
> Well between you and Blitz I guess the breed is in real good hands.
> 
> Does anyone wonder why so many don't post any more or have just left the site?


 
Look into a few boards that have died on the vine. They are all uniform in their lack of posters that have any character.

Your welcome.


----------



## RocketDog

He has plenty of training. I don't need to explain myself to you, especially. I'm not walking around here professing my expertise. I don't need to. 

And along those lines, there's no contest to have the last word. You'll surely have that. You always do because you can't stop yourself from posting in every thread.


----------



## martemchik

It's a huge misconception that's been perpetuated on this forum that only the dogs with the highest scores get bred. Trust me, it's not so. If it was...then all the people on this forum that are competitive and want to excel at IPO, would have dogs right now that are sired by the same dog...but they don't. It's actually pretty hard to find two people on this forum that have a dog by the same sire, unless those two people found their breeder through this forum and purchased a dog from them. And I don't believe any of those dogs have been sired by the top dogs in the nation right now.

Drago vom Patriot is "the" dog right now...and I know ONE of his puppies...and I've gone to enough IPO stuff in the last year to have met more than one or know a person that would have a puppy out of him (I know a few through this forum but just that one in real life).

Will the high in trial/national champion of next month's nationals get more phone calls to breed to than the other dogs? Probably. But he's not going to get ALL the phone calls. The other dogs will get plenty as well. And I can guarantee you the majority of the phone calls will still come from the surrounding area. If you've got the dog that came in 20th 30 minutes away, and the national champ who's across the country...most people are calling that dog 30 minutes away. Mostly because they'll go off the fact that they've seen the dog work...and they're not just going to go off a video or a high score at the competition.


----------



## llombardo

I have visited and watched three different IPO clubs and the same number of agility groups. The difference? It's not the dogs but the people. The IPO people are standoffish, borderline rude, and think they are better then the next. The agility people are outgoing, fun, and are willing to show people things, they want every dog to succeed. Forget the competitiveness part of it because I wasn't impressed with any of the GSD's in IPO, but the Rottweilers kicked butt. At best the strongest level of anything I saw on the field was obedience. Obedience that can really be taught to any dog. I wouldn't be impressed with any pups coming from those dogs. Maybe it's not the same everywhere but I've hit the same kind of people in 3 different groups. I'm outgoing and fun and don't expect to be looked down upon for any reason at all. I am impressed with military and police dogs, those dogs have proven something and are your true working dogs. The most important personality trait any GSD I ever own has will be loyality and love of children. Give me a GSD that understands kids and I don't care how it bites on the field or how high it can jump over a hurdle.


----------



## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> And your comments regularly show how arrogant you are.
> 
> Well between you and Blitz I guess the breed is in real good hands.
> 
> Does anyone wonder why so many don't post any more or have just left the site?


Why do I care who's here and who isn't? The biggest problem we have is too many people getting their information from the internet and not enough are getting it from the real world. I get 99% of my dog knowledge from working my dogs and learning from actual people. Sure, once in a while you read a good idea on this forum about how to fix X or Y, but most of the time, the people I train with come up with something just as good.

I'm telling you what I've experienced and what I've seen in the past few years. Not some romanticized version of the truth from 30 years ago that you seem to hang on to from those that you're so worried about losing. The ones that regularly come on here and talk about how crappy the breed is when they haven't worked a dog in the last decade and yet somehow still know what people are doing out there.

If you really think I can't give a poster a solution to how to crate train a dog, how to teach a dog to come, or how to house break a dog just as well as one of those almighty people that have left the forum...well that's your prerogative. It doesn't take 60 years of experience to figure out how to do those things. Very rarely do we have problems on this forum where decades of experience are necessary...and most of the time the answer is the same anyways...get someone in real life to evaluate the dog or the issue.

I know one of your favorites on here loves to constantly belittle other people's dogs and tell them that their temperament isn't good for anything but sitting in a cage once they have any kind of "outburst."


----------



## Jax08

MamaofLEO said:


> I just spent a half hour reading through these comments and my only addition is.."meow!"
> 
> 
> :rolleyes2:


a half hour we'll never get back.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Everyone: STOP picking at each other! Rules #1 and #2 are being violated all over the place, and also #5 and #9. 

*1. Be courteous to other members at all times;

2. Be respectful of the feelings of others;

5. Do not use defamatory statements or statements that attack the character of another;

9. Do not use statements that incite conflict among members;*

If you can't or won't post according to the rules, stay out of the thread. This is a general rule reminder, but official warnings can and will be sent out if people refuse to behave.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

llombardo said:


> I have visited and watched three different IPO clubs and the same number of agility groups. The difference? It's not the dogs but the people. The IPO people are standoffish, borderline rude, and think they are better then the next. The agility people are outgoing, fun, and are willing to show people things, they want every dog to succeed. Forget the competitiveness part of it because I wasn't impressed with any of the GSD's in IPO, but the Rottweilers kicked butt. At best the strongest level of anything I saw on the field was obedience. Obedience that can really be taught to any dog. I wouldn't be impressed with any pups coming from those dogs. Maybe it's not the same everywhere but I've hit the same kind of people in 3 different groups. I'm outgoing and fun and don't expect to be looked down upon for any reason at all. I am impressed with military and police dogs, those dogs have proven something and are your true working dogs. The most important personality trait any GSD I ever own has will be loyality and love of children. Give me a GSD that understands kids and I don't care how it bites on the field or how high it can jump over a hurdle.


LOl the IPO club around here is divided- some are great(helpful,nice,outgoing), its the only place were i have ever seen grown men actually turn into a bunch of teenage mean girls- yack yack yack behind there buddies back about "his dog" whatever, they need to start handing out midol at the meets


----------



## wolfy dog

llombardo said:


> I have visited and watched three different IPO clubs and the same number of agility groups. The difference? It's not the dogs but the people. The IPO people are standoffish, borderline rude, and think they are better then the next. The agility people are outgoing, fun, and are willing to show people things, they want every dog to succeed. Forget the competitiveness part of it because I wasn't impressed with any of the GSD's in IPO, but the Rottweilers kicked butt. At best the strongest level of anything I saw on the field was obedience. Obedience that can really be taught to any dog. I wouldn't be impressed with any pups coming from those dogs. Maybe it's not the same everywhere but I've hit the same kind of people in 3 different groups. I'm outgoing and fun and don't expect to be looked down upon for any reason at all. I am impressed with military and police dogs, those dogs have proven something and are your true working dogs. The most important personality trait any GSD I ever own has will be loyality and love of children. Give me a GSD that understands kids and I don't care how it bites on the field or how high it can jump over a hurdle.


  :shocked:  I mean it, this is really sad. For me it was just a 'wondering' question and now people are getting like this?
I feel this thread should close. We all love our dogs and no dog is better than the other.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Why do I care who's here and who isn't? The biggest problem we have is too many people getting their information from the internet and not enough are getting it from the real world. I get 99% of my dog knowledge from working my dogs and learning from actual people. Sure, once in a while you read a good idea on this forum about how to fix X or Y, but most of the time, the people I train with come up with something just as good.
> 
> I'm telling you what I've experienced and what I've seen in the past few years. Not some romanticized version of the truth from 30 years ago that you seem to hang on to from those that you're so worried about losing. The ones that regularly come on here and talk about how crappy the breed is when they haven't worked a dog in the last decade and yet somehow still know what people are doing out there.
> 
> If you really think I can't give a poster a solution to how to crate train a dog, how to teach a dog to come, or how to house break a dog just as well as one of those almighty people that have left the forum...well that's your prerogative. It doesn't take 60 years of experience to figure out how to do those things. Very rarely do we have problems on this forum where decades of experience are necessary...and most of the time the answer is the same anyways...get someone in real life to evaluate the dog or the issue.
> 
> I know one of your favorites on here loves to constantly belittle other people's dogs and tell them that their temperament isn't good for anything but sitting in a cage once they have any kind of "outburst."


I have no idea where you came up with who my so called favorites are so I'm not even going to bother with that.

I do however value experience and find it interesting that you value your few years of experience but dismiss that of others, who have vastly more than yourself.

I don't know where you train but I'll bet that your TD has a lot more experience than you do. That is usually the way it works. Do you talk about your TD the way you do about experienced folks on here.

There are many things GSD related that I know very little about, so I like to listen to those who have experience. To me if 5 years is good 20 is probably better. Not necessarily in every case but in general.


----------



## RocketDog

Jack's Dad said:


> I have no idea where you came up with who my so called favorites are so I'm not even going to bother with that.
> 
> I do however value experience and find it interesting that you value your few years of experience but dismiss that of others, who have vastly more than yourself.
> 
> I don't know where you train but I'll bet that your TD has a lot more experience than you do. That is usually the way it works. Do you talk about your TD the way you do about experienced folks on here.
> 
> There are many things GSD related that I know very little about, so I like to listen to those who have experience. To me if 5 years is good 20 is probably better. Not necessarily in every case but in general.


Good post. 

Often the loudest say the least worthy of hearing.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I think we have a few puffed up "I know it all" ego's going on here in this thread.

Rather sad to see that some feel the only way is "their" way and that people can't be happy for others accomplishments with their german shepherds no matter what that accomplishment is.


----------



## KZoppa

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think we have a few puffed up "I know it all" ego's going on here in this thread.
> 
> Rather sad to see that some feel the only way is "their" way and that people can't be happy for others accomplishments with their german shepherds no matter what that accomplishment is.



This. I don't come on here often anymore because of the bickering and attacking. Doesn't help when I do come back, I see threads like this that start out interesting enough and turn into personal attacks. 

I can't say I'm always totally innocent myself, because nobody is, however, threads like this are part of why a lot of people are afraid to say anything or get involved in anything because someone somewhere will always get huffy about it. This started out as a simple thread and it turned into attacks on various sports people choose to do with their dogs.


----------



## martemchik

I think it's interesting that people that share actual personal experience, and try to talk about it are shunned and get called names...while the posts that add absolutely zero to this forum or thread:

"I'm just here to light the dynamite. Whenever there's arrogance and narcissism, a bat signal appears. Once that fuse is lit, I just throw it back and the problem takes care of itself. " (basically admitting to breaking rule #9)

"Even worse failure, I don't drink! Which proves I'm not macho enough for IPO. My wife and I actually did agility for fun. That's" FUN" for those who don't understand it."

"I don't give a hot **** about the written standard" 
Well well well. I think there are many "cull/pet" breeders who feel the same. 
Isn't that interesting."

"So by all means, let's ignore it. 
Small minds always think the "rules" don't apply to them. Or is it narssicistic minds?"

Are not just defended, but are basically protected by other members and even encouraged to a certain degree, while trying to silence those of us that are actually discussing things that pertain to this breed.

I guess it is those of us that want to improve the status of this breed, and discuss how to preserve what this breed is supposed to be that are ruining the forum. While the ones that make the types of comments I listed above, are adding to it and helping others learn more about the breed.


----------



## RocketDog

Oh the irony.....

And sour grapes.  Run along with your little friend now who hides behind another name on this forum and go talk amongst yourselves again.


----------



## martemchik

Thanks for proving my point...


----------



## Lucy Dog

So who won? The border collie or the german shepherd?


----------



## Jax08

Lucy Dog said:


> So who won? The border collie or the german shepherd?


While the BC and the GSD were duking it out, the Doodle ran away with the spoon.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Jax08 said:


> While the BC and the GSD were duking it out, the Doodle ran away with the spoon.


Bloody doodles.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jax08 said:


> While the BC and the GSD were duking it out, the Doodle ran away with the spoon.


Is that how they test doodles for breed worthiness these days?


----------



## Jax08

Lucy Dog said:


> Is that how they test doodles for breed worthiness these days?


yes. They have to hold the spoon on their nose while running agility and biting people. If they drop the spoon...speuter time...


----------



## KZoppa

Lucy Dog said:


> Is that how they test doodles for breed worthiness these days?




Yes it is.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Doodles have it tougher then both other breeds.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Jax08 said:


> yes. They have to hold the spoon on their nose while running agility and biting people. If they drop the spoon...speuter time...


Well, of course you speuter a dog that can't even hold a spoon. I don't care if there's a market for it or not.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Hey has anyone seen a poodle do schutzhund?


----------



## RocketDog

Jax08 said:


> While the BC and the GSD were duking it out, the Doodle ran away with the spoon.


I've already told you, we can't run away together no matter how much you want to.


----------



## Jax08

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Hey has anyone seen a poodle do schutzhund?


My previous trainer is raising a poodle right now and will do IPO with her. They are hunting dogs so interested to see how she does.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Love poodles. They shine in agility too! !


----------



## Jax08

Her giant schnauzer is in the top 5 in the country for that breed in agility.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I have heard they do well in IPO


----------



## Jax08

They do. They are protection dogs so they should. They are fun to watch.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

There is a black russian terrier that frequents our walking spot. He is friendly but his owner saud he can switch his tune in a heartbeat.


----------



## lhczth

wolfy dog said:


> OK, In sailing regattas they use handicaps so variuos types of sail boats can fairly compete at each other. I just thought something like that could apply to BC (give them a few handicap points). No, I am not talking about handicapping the dog!!
> (* preventing this thread from going downhill again)


 I believe in the UK they have BC agility and then every other breed. That is just how darn good the BC are in agility compared to other breeds. 

Not everyone is breeding for 95# monsters. I have a little female right now that I know agility people would love to get their hands on. 52# at 15 months. Small, very fast and very agile. She will be doing IPO because that is what I do. Actually Willie has seen my dogs though not this little girl.  I know he loved Elena.


----------



## lhczth

Jack's Dad said:


> I wish some adults would return to the forum.


 Jack's dad, :thumbup:!!!


----------



## martemchik

Go and train your dogs with those adults...why do you need the forum to talk to people and gather information?

Oh...I know, much easier to sit on a computer and complain about things rather than get out and actually do something about it to affect change or hope that eventually someone else will do it for you. Much easier to also complain about people that are doing something, especially when their opinion doesn't exactly line up with yours...


----------



## Nigel

lhczth said:


> I believe in the UK they have BC agility and then every other breed. That is just how darn good the BC are in agility compared to other breeds.
> 
> Not everyone is breeding for 95# monsters. I have a little female right now that I know agility people would love to get their hands on. 52# at 15 months. Small, very fast and very agile. She will be doing IPO because that is what I do. Actually Willie has seen my dogs though not this little girl.  I know he loved Elena.


Are you aware of anyone who tends to breed Gsds toward the smaller end of the standard? Not purposely smaller, but with all other traits of a good breeding program considered, their dogs just are? (Hope this makes sense)


----------



## RocketDog

martemchik said:


> Go and train your dogs with those adults...why do you need the forum to talk to people and gather information?
> 
> Oh...I know, much easier to sit on a computer and complain about things rather than get out and actually do something about it to affect change or hope that eventually someone else will do it for you. Much easier to also complain about people that are doing something, especially when their opinion doesn't exactly line up with yours...


How hypocritical. 

Some of the biggest complainers about "differing opinions" were the loudest ones who posted the majority of this thread. They constantly argue what THEY think the breed should or shouldn't be as the be all end all. 

And pointing out that someone who vocalizes their opinions on what should and shouldn't "be fed", to borrow a crass phrase, thinks the breed standard is worthless is pertinent to the board. Especially when, even though they might be out training, they are certainly not expert enough to justify these high-held opinions. How open to learning is one when they believe they already know it all.


----------



## Nigel

llombardo said:


> I have visited and watched three different IPO clubs and the same number of agility groups. The difference? It's not the dogs but the people. The IPO people are standoffish, borderline rude, and think they are better then the next. The agility people are outgoing, fun, and are willing to show people things, they want every dog to succeed. Forget the competitiveness part of it because I wasn't impressed with any of the GSD's in IPO, but the Rottweilers kicked butt. At best the strongest level of anything I saw on the field was obedience. Obedience that can really be taught to any dog. I wouldn't be impressed with any pups coming from those dogs. Maybe it's not the same everywhere but I've hit the same kind of people in 3 different groups. I'm outgoing and fun and don't expect to be looked down upon for any reason at all. I am impressed with military and police dogs, those dogs have proven something and are your true working dogs. The most important personality trait any GSD I ever own has will be loyality and love of children. Give me a GSD that understands kids and I don't care how it bites on the field or how high it can jump over a hurdle.


My days are too fragmented with kids sports and other things to dedicate the time necessary for ipo, plus I really need to work on my handling. my trainer for rally class tells me, your dog is fantastic, really, she's ready, but you suck, quit having Zoe perform things that are not part of the course and you can get more than a novice title, lol. 

With that , I have been looking into Ipo for "down the road" once my kids require less of my time. We have two clubs here locally and one is very much like you describe, lots of egos and .... Holes and mostly men, the other is very professional, friendly, goal driven people and welcoming too. That later group is a mix, but maybe slightly more women. They are more than willing to help people looking to get into Ipo as long as you are serious about it.


----------



## martemchik

Lol...why do you think that because I post my opinions I think I "know it all" and don't learn from the other posters.

Just because someone challenges a thought, or asks someone to expand on an opinion, possibly by playing devil's advocate and asking them to think about it in a different way...doesn't mean they don't read and learn from what has been written.

I have actually not once told someone they are just plain wrong...I just give a differeing opinion. If I offer a different opinion, it in no way means that I don't respect and understand or learn from what the other person has written.

I have also often times asked people where they formed their opinion so that I know where their information is coming from. Many times on this forum it's pretty easy to tell when someone is just regurgitating what they'e read previously and just taken for fact...instead of getting out and seeing what actually happens.

This is something that happens a lot with people in general...when someone with X amount of years of experience more than you says something, you blindly accept it as fact. When in reality, there is nothing wrong with questioning that opinion or that experience.

Dogs are fluid, we all have different experiences and one size doesn't fit all. This is not something you should ever stop questioning. If people stopped questioning, we wouldn't be doing positive reinforcement at this point for training, we wouldn't use prong collars, we'd still be beating our dogs until they listened. But people questioned, and people learned a better way. This isn't a black/white subject where you just have to accept certain things as fact. Everything we talk about is up for discussion, and anyone that just blindly accepts something that someone says because they've been dealing with dogs for twice as long as them, is already making a mistake.


----------



## RocketDog

Maybe I wasn't referring wholly to you. Maybe I wasn't at all, or maybe I was. If she shoe fits, wear it. If it doesnt strike a nerve, then don't worry about it.


----------



## martemchik

I'm just telling you where a lot of my opinions and posts come from. Sure...to many it sounds disrespectful when someone "my age" questions an "adult." But why not question, that's how we learn, that's how ideas/thoughts expand, that's how you get deeper into issues and get clearer answers.

Sorry I'm not here to just sit back and listen to "back in my day" stories, look at pictures of dogs, and answer threads about why a puppy's ears aren't standing up.

I personally have no issues with anyone doing whatever it is they chose to do with their GSD. I have a problem with those that question, or make statements, without ever experiencing it out in real life and seeing it for yourself. It's not hard for me to notice when something is clearly being regurgitated and not actually coming from the person's own experience. It's even worse when they post some article they read from again...one of those "older people" and think its true because X said so. I'm just not sure why people do that...clearly, anyone can post anything they want on the internet...


----------



## lhczth

martemchik said:


> Go and train your dogs with those adults...why do you need the forum to talk to people and gather information?
> 
> Oh...I know, much easier to sit on a computer and complain about things rather than get out and actually do something about it to affect change or hope that eventually someone else will do it for you. Much easier to also complain about people that are doing something, especially when their opinion doesn't exactly line up with yours...


 I hope your were not directing this at me even if your post followed mine.


----------



## lhczth

Nigel said:


> Are you aware of anyone who tends to breed Gsds toward the smaller end of the standard? Not purposely smaller, but with all other traits of a good breeding program considered, their dogs just are? (Hope this makes sense)


 Yeah, me, at least with my bitches. Never intentional. Just happened.


----------



## lhczth

*ADMIN hat on now. Stop with the childish back and forth snarking. People are right, it keeps other from posting and scares members away. No one wants to be snarked at and insulted and be rudely addressed just because they have a different opinion. *

*ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## SuperG

martemchik said:


> . Sure...to many it sounds disrespectful when someone "my age" questions an "adult."


Had to respond to this comment....since I have had an opinion about this mentality ever since I became an "adult".

When it dawned on me that the "losers" in life who were my contemporaries at a young age, continued forward becoming adults and yet remained clueless, it changed my attitude about respecting your elders. Just because of one's age, by no means suggests they are sagacious....however, I always give my elders the benefit of the doubt, out of respect. Of course, I have garnered much wisdom and sound advice from those older than me...but there are more and more "older" morons walking the streets these days..and I reckon the numbers will just continue to increase.

Old fools had to start off as young fools...I assume.

SuperG


----------



## Steve Strom

martemchik said:


> Dogs are fluid, we all have different experiences and one size doesn't fit all. This is not something you should ever stop questioning. If people stopped questioning, we wouldn't be doing positive reinforcement at this point for training, we wouldn't use prong collars, we'd still be beating our dogs until they listened. But people questioned, and people learned a better way. This isn't a black/white subject where you just have to accept certain things as fact. Everything we talk about is up for discussion, and anyone that just blindly accepts something that someone says because they've been dealing with dogs for twice as long as them, is already making a mistake.


Dogs are fluid. Dogs, are fluid? That sounds like an argument for breeding _for_ agility,or any other specific? But the way I look at it, I'm not bothered by German Shepherds being bred for certain traits as long as they include healthy and solid temperaments in there. I think its probably always been like that anyway, and there will be dogs bred for their working or bitesport ability. I'm not the oldest here, but the idea that dogs were so completely different back in the day that they all could do anything doesnt match what I remember for the last 54 years.


----------



## lhczth

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not the oldest here, but the idea that dogs were so completely different back in the day that they all could do anything doesnt match what I remember for the last 54 years.


 OMG, someone that is older than me.  

IMO the dogs have changed. There were good and bad dogs back 35 years ago (that is as far back as I remember GSD), but the good dogs were different from a lot that I am seeing now. The bad dogs, on the other hand, haven't changed much.


----------



## martemchik

Steve Strom said:


> Dogs are fluid. Dogs, are fluid? That sounds like an argument for breeding _for_ agility,or any other specific? But the way I look at it, I'm not bothered by German Shepherds being bred for certain traits as long as they include healthy and solid temperaments in there. I think its probably always been like that anyway, and there will be dogs bred for their working or bitesport ability. I'm not the oldest here, but the idea that dogs were so completely different back in the day that they all could do anything doesnt match what I remember for the last 54 years.


Probably just the wrong language. My point was more that each dog/problem needs a different approach. And dog training changes constantly...I have trained with a lot of older people that still prefer the good ol' crank and yank method for training dogs...guess I should be giving them the respect and just blindly following those methods.

I'd like to know what you remember. Really...because all I've seen on this forum is how dogs 50 years ago could do anything. You can take them from a family, throw them out onto the battlefield, throw them into the police department, and they'd not only sniff out the drugs, but they'd catch the bad guy with perfectly full grips. I guess those dogs don't exist anymore except from a few special breeders...won't mention any names, but they're the ones that like to talk about how ****ty the breed is while throwing out their amazingly bred animals to show how they're doing it different.


----------



## Steve Strom

I remember in 1969 I got mauled by a retired police dog when I turned to throw the ball for him. You can't generalize everything so much, then or now. I'm sure there was a good case to be made for a little more reward based then and I know there's still some good reasons for a little yank and crank now.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

An interesting discussion between some PD/sellers/breeders on LE dogs and how things change.

Working Dog Forum


----------



## SuperG

martemchik said:


> My point was more that each dog/problem needs a different approach. And dog training changes constantly...I have trained with a lot of older people that still prefer the good ol' crank and yank method for training dogs...guess I should be giving them the respect and just blindly following those methods.
> 
> .


Substitute the word "children" for "dog"...and the parallel is amazing..and perhaps, unfortunately....a mirror of the times...at times.


SuperG


----------



## llombardo

There is a tiny 75ish year old woman with a 100 pound GSD at the club I go to, she still does the yank and crank and she doesn't use treats that I've ever seen. Her dog is older and and behaves nicely. I cringe when I see her use that method when the dog just looks the wrong way, really all she would have to do is say his name to correct him. She is still stuck back 40 years ago and refuses to move forward. I try to ignore her and not watch her because she is an elder and I was taught to respect my elders. When the dog gets lifted in the air I shake my head and bite my tongue, as do others that are there. I am thankful I don't see it often. The first time I saw her do it my jaw dropped , I couldn't believe she had that strength.


----------



## martemchik

I don't get it...are you saying crank and yank is the proper way to raise children?

Not sure if the guys prosecuting Adrian Peterson agree with that one...


----------



## Steve Strom

lhczth said:


> OMG, someone that is older than me.
> 
> IMO the dogs have changed. There were good and bad dogs back 35 years ago (that is as far back as I remember GSD), but the good dogs were different from a lot that I am seeing now. The bad dogs, on the other hand, haven't changed much.


I'll reply to this after my nap.


----------



## Steve Strom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> An interesting discussion between some PD/sellers/breeders on LE dogs and how things change.
> 
> Working Dog Forum


That seems more like a comment on a shortage of good training, especially when you read what David, the most experienced poster said.


----------



## llombardo

martemchik said:


> I don't get it...are you saying crank and yank is the proper way to raise children?
> 
> Not sure if the guys prosecuting Adrian Peterson agree with that one...


Well back in the day kids respected their parents because they were disciplined. Today not so much because they scream child abuse if a parent attempts to reprimand them , said kids then go out and bully other kids, rape old women and kill each other without thinking twice. I'm more opposed to the yank and crank on dogs then I would be on some of these disrespectful kids, just my opinion.


----------



## martemchik

llombardo...the point is...it's one thing if they're doing it themselves and only themselves. It's another if you're spreading that information to others and they're following it without question. The crank and yank was just one example that I know the majority of people could relate to and would agree that it's a great thing people started to question it without just blindly following their elders.

There are plenty of times that just because someone is older, they don't know better. They just know THEIR way...and many times, they've ignored all other new ways that might be better. I listen to people's opinions, but I like to know what's behind them. How long ago they were developed, and how they have changed over time. Too often I see opinions that are based on facts or ideas from 20+ years ago praised...while the ones that are currently out there and doing things are getting ridiculed for theirs.

Crank and yank is wonderful if you want to get a calm, driveless, dog. It's the last thing you want to do if you are looking to compete in dog sport.

I almost sound like lobo...but too often people are quick to accept people's opinions based off of nothing but age. Which was the #1 reason brought up in this thread to not accept certain poster's opinions. While other people are just blindly accepted as experts due to the fact that they were able to convince the online community that they have the age/experience. Remember...most of us have never seen/met each other, and none of the people that post on here have truly "proven" their expertise.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Steve Strom said:


> That seems more like a comment on a shortage of good training, especially when you read what David, the most experienced poster said.


Lack of good training = lower quality dogs that noobs can handle


----------



## SuperG

martemchik said:


> I don't get it...are you saying crank and yank is the proper way to raise children?
> 
> Not sure if the guys prosecuting Adrian Peterson agree with that one...


No, I'm simply suggesting that "crank and yank" AKA "old school" when applied to raising the next generation produced a culture of what that generation became....The "Adrian Petersen" comment is of no value...one can always find an example if they search for it...but usually the example is the exception rather than the rule.


SuperG


----------



## Steve Strom

> Crank and yank is wonderful if you want to get a calm, driveless, dog. It's the last thing you want to do if you are looking to compete in dog sport.


And then one of these days maybe you get a real strong dog that figures out he can punk the helper and blow you off because you witholding that reward means nothing, he's getting it for himself. Bet you go a little yank and crank then.


----------



## martemchik

Steve Strom said:


> And then one of these days maybe you get a real strong dog that figures out he can punk the helper and blow you off because you witholding that reward means nothing, he's getting it for himself. Bet you go a little yank and crank then.


I'll correct my dog...don't get me wrong. And I have to yank quite hard at times. When you allow a dog to be in drive and your dog can handle a correction, its a different story.

Crank and yank is never necessary to teach a sit, down, front, or any of the simple obedience exercises that people like to use it for.

Also...if you believe the lady in llombardo's story needs to be hanging her dog as a correction...I don't know if that's "training." That's not right. Sorry, there are very few situations in which a dog needs to be hung...and I have a feeling that's not one of those dogs.


----------



## RocketDog

llombardo said:


> Well back in the day kids respected their parents because they were disciplined. Today not so much because they scream child abuse if a parent attempts to reprimand them , said kids then go out and bully other kids, rape old women and kill each other without thinking twice. I'm more opposed to the yank and crank on dogs then I would be on some of these disrespectful kids, just my opinion.


Because no one bullied, raped or killed in previous generations?

There is far more to proclaiming today's youth a bunch of punks than simply blaming a lack of discipline.


----------



## Steve Strom

> My point was more that each dog/problem needs a different approach.





> Crank and yank is never necessary to teach a sit, down, front, or any of the simple obedience exercises that people like to use it for.


?? Which is it? Never necessary, or a different approach?


----------



## martemchik

Nicely done...lets take two sentences, from two different posts, completely out of context and throw them together.

Keep reaching bud.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

what happened to the original topic? I believe it was bcs/gsds in agility..another topic gone way off into the distance


----------



## Steve Strom

martemchik said:


> Nicely done...lets take two sentences, from two different posts, completely out of context and throw them together.
> 
> Keep reaching bud.


How's that out of context?


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## Steve Strom

llombardo said:


> Well back in the day kids respected their parents because they were disciplined. Today not so much because they scream child abuse if a parent attempts to reprimand them , said kids then go out and bully other kids, rape old women and kill each other without thinking twice. I'm more opposed to the yank and crank on dogs then I would be on some of these disrespectful kids, just my opinion.


I won't comment on raising kids, but my dogs know discipline and I don't care if it takes physical or verbal abuse. Here's proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPeh9lKncY4&list=UUi08GY-D7SRrfSk5nZ01XYw

That won't work with a border collie. Back on topic?


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## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Nicely done...lets take two sentences, from two different posts, completely out of context and throw them together.
> 
> Keep reaching bud.


*I think it's interesting that people that share actual personal experience, and try to talk about it are shunned and get called names...while the posts that add absolutely zero to this forum or thread:

"I'm just here to light the dynamite. Whenever there's arrogance and narcissism, a bat signal appears. Once that fuse is lit, I just throw it back and the problem takes care of itself. " (basically admitting to breaking rule #9)

"Even worse failure, I don't drink! Which proves I'm not macho enough for IPO. My wife and I actually did agility for fun. That's" FUN" for those who don't understand it."

"I don't give a hot **** about the written standard" 
Well well well. I think there are many "cull/pet" breeders who feel the same. 
Isn't that interesting."

"So by all means, let's ignore it. 
Small minds always think the "rules" don't apply to them. Or is it narssicistic minds?"

Are not just defended, but are basically protected by other members and even encouraged to a certain degree, while trying to silence those of us that are actually discussing things that pertain to this breed.

I guess it is those of us that want to improve the status of this breed, and discuss how to preserve what this breed is supposed to be that are ruining the forum. While the ones that make the types of comments I listed above, are adding to it and helping others learn more about the breed.

*Like the above*.

*Quotes without the context of what came before, between or after.

Try looking at your own posts and maybe you'll find how they could be offensive.


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## lhczth

Oh well. Sorry to have to do this.

ADMIN


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