# is a 4 month old gsd puppy too old to buy? (for $3000?)



## orangesss

I am a first time dog owner. I plan on taking him to training/obedience classes, yes i have the time to "babbysit" him initially just to get him accustomed to the new surroundings. 
How hard would it be for me to train the older pup, would he be or become loyal to me? How hard is it for me to re-train or train out some of his habits (how many habits do you think he has already?)

Background on the pup:
- When asked why the breeder still has older pups, he said something along the lines of recession and people not being able to afford puppies or dogs
- he said he was planning on training the pup to be a police dog if someone wasn't going to purchase him
- the pup is most likely living in a kennel, however he said his family is constantly around and interacts with the dogs/puppies

I'm paying quite a bit for this puppy (close to 3000) .... yes, that is alot.... i want to make sure that the price justifies the quality of the dog i will get

Should I wait till younger puppies are available? or adopt this one (keep in mind im unable to visit them)


----------



## dvsdevelopment

Four months old is not too old in my opinion.

$3000 is a lot depending on where you're getting him from. What kennel is this?


----------



## bocron

$3000 for a 4 month old pup that has most likely been in a kennel for the last 8 weeks? 
His worst habits at this point will mostly be social issues. He may also be harder to potty train at first as he's probably never even had to think about holding it.
Just be aware, you aren't adopting the puppy, you are BUYING it. Like any other large purchase you should get the best for the money you are putting out there. 

Annette


----------



## onyx'girl

You are also supporting the breeder when giving that breeder $ for a pup...are you certain you are going to get support from said breeder when you have any concerns?
From the price you are quoted, I am assuming this is a showline kennel? Please do research to make sure you aren't buying into a price bracket type system that many SL kennels have. Research is worthy regardless of the cost of the pup, make sure you know who and the program you are supporting. 

I know of others who buy a kennel dog (working line) at one yr old or more, and the dog does just fine, but that is due to good breeding and resiliance within the pedigree/lines. Other dogs that are kenneled for that length of time may not ever get over their lack of socialization during the imprinting stages and are a pain to manage/train because of their breeding.


----------



## sagelfn

What is the kennel you are looking to purchase from?

If this pup is suitable for being a working K9 this is not a good match for a first time dog owner.


----------



## Pepper311

bocron said:


> $3000 for a 4 month old pup that has most likely been in a kennel for the last 8 weeks?
> His worst habits at this point will mostly be social issues. He may also be harder to potty train at first as he's probably never even had to think about holding it.
> Just be aware, you aren't adopting the puppy, you are BUYING it. Like any other large purchase you should get the best for the money you are putting out there.
> 
> Annette


If you Were adopting no age is too old. But like it was said before you are buying it is a big purchase. Any way you could meet the dog first? I really think it's always best to meet your new family member to see if it's a match.


----------



## JackB.

New doggie owner here too. I don't know much, but we adopted Jack when he was 4 & 1/2 months old. Since we got him from another family, we were also worried about being able to bond with him since we were taking him from the only family he had ever known. We started obedience classes a week later and it did wonders! It was very comforting when we realized he was bonding with us through the training.


----------



## Emoore

Even adults and seniors can bond with new families, so don't worry about that.

4 months isn't too old to adopt, but unless they've been doing housebreaking/training/socializing, a pup's price tends to decrease after 8 weeks, not increase. If he's just been sitting in a kennel since he was 8 weeks old, I'd expect a bit of a price break.


----------



## RebelGSD

4 months is a young pup, similar to a 2 yo human. Of course they can learn, they can learn at any age, same as people. I rescued a dog that lived in the woods on her own, fending for herself, and she turned into a wonderful, loyal family member.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> I am a first time dog owner.


Obviously, & that's not intended to be snarky. Experienced dog people know that even aged seniors can bond tightly with a loving, committed & dedicated owner. Which is the only kind worth being. 

Unless this pup comes from lines or a breeder that you're enamored of I'd look further. That's (IMO) too much to pay unless you have a very specific reason you want that type, those lines or that breeder. Quality GSD abound at prices ranging from $1000 to $2000.

Is the pup of interest over priced??? Not if he's truly what you want & need, but be certain of that before buying. If not then look around. Acquaint yourself with all that's available. Analyze what you need, want & expect. Ask yourself how pups from particular types &/or breeders meet your needs. Go with the pup/dog that best suits your family.

Note, dogs beat pups any day IMO. The best thing about pups is they grow up to become dogs. I think the very best are retired breeders or young adults that turned out unsuited for breeding for one reason or another from a reputable & knowledgeable breeder.

Admittedly pups can be awesome, too. My little Djibouti was a pup when I got him & he's just about perfect. Perhaps a mite better than perfect...


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

The age is fine, 4 months old is still a puppy.

The price MAY be a huge issue. IF this is a top experienced responsible breeder with a heck of a background/experience under their belt and a fantastic puppy warranty.... (READ THIS ----> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html ) it may be a reasonable price. 

Can you put up the breeders webpage for us to evaluate a bit and see if anyone has heard of them? Good info can be posted on this main board, and if anyone has some 'heads up ' information they can then PM you...


----------



## bocron

The bonding with the new owner probably wouldn't be my first concern. We have bought pups/dogs of all ages over the last 25+ years. From 8 week old pups to 3yo SchH 3 titled dogs. Every single one of them has adjusted and bonded to our family with no problems. Some took a little time and effort (the older dogs) just because they needed to learn our style and routines, but all of them were equally devoted to us and us to them when all was said and done. Short of the dog coming from an abusive or severely neglected background, bonding shouldn't be a big problem. 
Now, having said that, if I were paying $3000 (WOW) for a pup at 4+ months I would want to see the pup in person, barring that I would absolutely demand video showing what if anything the dog has learned and how it interacts with other dogs and people. When we buy a pup sight unseen, then video is a must. I realize it is not perfect, and video can be edited, but in general you should be able to get a good insight into the general temperament and whether it has any clue about working with a human. When we buy an older pup (8 mos or more) we always get video showing the dog doing some basic obedience and maybe even some bitework for fun type stuff. At 4 mos, and $3000 video showing the pup would be the least I would ask for. 
Like others have posted, maybe a link to the kennel would get you a bit more insight into whether you are making a wise choice. 
We had a guy show up at our Schutzhund club a few months back with his new, 6 month old pup. He got the pup from a very well known SL kennel that is famous for it's pricing tier and "satellite" breeders. It was obvious within a few minutes that this dog was completely kennel bound. Totally lacking in any general etiquette as it applied to dogs or humans. He is a sweet pup, but may never get over some of his quirky stuff. The owner is a great guy and very hopeful for this dog, but I wish he would have done a bit more research. For the large sum he spent, he will not be getting what he hoped for. The guy is still going to pursue Schutzhund but it will absolutely be more work with less rewards for sure. Actually now that I think about it, he hasn't been out to training for a few weeks. I think he is getting totally discouraged after watching the other dogs work and make significant progress and his is still just spinning and lunging with no focus. Our club has a mixture of SL and WL dogs, so it's not that he's comparing only to WL dogs.

Annette


----------



## NancyJ

While that age is not too old, as others have said, he may have more issues if the breeder has not done things with him, particularly in terms of human interaction and some exposure to the outside world.

$3000 seems a bit high to me for a puppy that age, particularly given the whole recession statement. My next pup will be about a third of the price and I am taking him at 11 weeks. 

Actually the only reason I am doing that is I know if I did not jump someone else would take him (and this is not from talking with the breeder) and I can't get him before then......and because I know the breeder spends a ton of time with the puppies doing all kinds of interesting things..just being around the family in a kennel does not mean a lot to me.....

.I see litters all the time from good breeders that are sold out either before they are born or before they are ready to leave...and for a lot less money. Now showline dogs can be more exensive, maybe he is showlines?

Given the circumsances, I think you are wise to ask a lot of questions.


----------



## martemchik

Yeah four months is that awkward age where dogs tend to lose value. Everyone wants a 2-3 month old puppy and once its been sitting around for more than that you start asking questions. Dogs can increase in value depending on the training they receive and if it is kept back and later works out to be great breeding stock, but thats later after they have developed a little and you can tell what you're getting.

Some breeders won't get away from their tier pricing system so according to them this dog might be worth the $3000. If the part about police dog training is true, you should do a lot of research about the kind of dog you are getting. This is also a reason why the price can be so high, many breeders take pride that their dogs end up in military/police jobs and will charge more for that novelty.


----------



## NancyJ

A true green dog that is placed in a K9 program is usually somewhere between 1 and 2 and may well go for $5000 to $6000 or more -- But part of that price is now you have a dog that is x-rayed and you know has no congential problems and is old enough to assess in terms of temperament and drives. And also a dog that has had foundation work. You are paying the breeder to absorb the risk when you go that route.

Most pups bred for work tend to sell for less, not more than their showline counterparts.


----------



## BlackPuppy

If you do buy him, I'd like to see what a $3,000 puppy looks like.


----------



## Samba

In my buying and raising of pups, 3000.00 can get one a top dog with no faults and capable of high level showing if a show type dog. For that money, I have gotten a green dog with hips and elbows prelimned, drives observable, great working abilities for an applied task. For a wonderful, quality and appropriate life long GSD family member, 3000.00 is far from necessary to spend. So, it makes me wonder what is being sold to you for this price on a 4 month old?


----------



## TechieDog

4 months old is perfect to me as long as the puppy has been socialized. I would prefer it if they are crate trained and at least a little house trained at that age too.
But $3000 is a lot (too much) unless it is from a special litter and has been worked with.


----------



## Tammy GSD

I'd like to add that a high price tag doesn't mean a high-quality breeder. Sometimes, not even close. I'll just leave it at that and not bore with the long story.


----------



## Samba

I must say that this has also been very true in my many years. Often, the inexperienced equate price with quality. It is just not that simple in dogs. High pricing makes me super cautious because I know the markets and the values of different types of dogs.


----------



## gsd_newbie

Considered a 8 weeks puppy normally costs around $1000 to $2000, I think $3000 for a 4 months old one is not overpriced if that puppy is coming from a good breeder with great bloodline, ie. Ivan Balabanov. An extra thousand bucks to cover all the expensive such as foods, vet check, vaccinates, works, etc for extra 10 weeks (since 8 weeks to 4 months) are reasonable. I also would like to see the puppy if OP decided to get him.


----------



## msvette2u

TechieDog said:


> 4 months old is perfect to me as long as the puppy has been socialized. I would prefer it if they are crate trained and at least a little house trained at that age too.
> But $3000 is a lot (too much) unless it is from a special litter and has been worked with.


I was going to say, if this puppy is coming from a large scale operation and never socialized - to people - then you may have a load of trouble on your hands. The first 4mos. is when they need to strongly bond with humans and interact daily with them.

We have a dog rescue and some of the hardest pups we get in are "farm" puppies who are over 3-4 mos., who were born on a farm, often in a barn or even field, and nobody interacts with them in a meaningful way (just feeding them isn't enough) and they are perpetually shy and do not live up to society's standards for dogs, even the basic interactions. Some are almost feral and have extreme fear issues where you cannot handle without being bitten, or the puppy going nuts and pooping and peeing on itself in fear. 
We end up instructing their adopters on how to bond and socialize the puppy so it can have a semblance of normalcy but often it takes a special owner to adopt them because they'll always have social flaws including extreme shyness.

To the OP, you'll need to post where you're getting the puppy from, and also if you do choose to purchase it, you'll want to assess it carefully for shyness/fearfulness. If it's shy and/or fearful, and not outgoing and happy (cowers or tucks tail instead of being happy to see you, and wagging tail) when you meet it, run away fast and take your 3k with you.


----------



## Samba

If I don't have a special purpose for the pedigree etc and the specific qualities of the specific pup, I would be able to find a great youngster for less and begin my early things with them at 8 weeks.

I have gotten dogs at ages from 7 weeks to 6 years. They all bonded, trained, etc. As far as family companions who also titled in venues, my rescues have been awesome. The husband and now grown kids can attest to our incredible experiences with them.

I am sure I have never spent $1000.00 raising and vetting a pup from 8 weeks to 4 months. Pricing is a whatever the market will bear thing.


----------



## Lilie

I don't think I'd be hung up on the age of the pup, nor the price. I think the biggest red flag would be a breeder selling a puppy they thought worthy of K9 work to a first time puppy buyer.


----------



## carmspack

I think the price is on the high side. I have had young adults with extensive socializing go for around that much .

Add up the hours and gas , taxiing dogs back and forth into town , the fire hall , the big box hardware stores , and the hours accumulated treating a particular pup as if he were the only dog in the world -- lots of one on one (no dog park) shaping behaviour, creating bonds and connections , often with a prelim , or can if requested, or if part of pre-purchase (service dog).

It depends on what this person has done with the pup to "add value". 

Should you be able to bond -- absolutely , if the dog has had good social experience to this point, an engagement between the dog and the caretaker. 

As a matter of fact my experience has been that there are people that will ask to have a pup held over and readied for them , say a household with both partners working , professionals who want that pup to have an optimum foundation . They want the crate training , the housebreaking , the leash training . They want it done correctly . 

There is no "best before" or "sell by" date sticker on the dog. 

Is there anything else that you can provide as information on this dog .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

maybe they thought it would be a k9 but it didn't pan out?


----------



## Mrs.K

No, it's not a reasonable price for a four month old puppy. To me it sounds like somebody wants to take advantage of an inexperienced person and they are using the K9 route as a seller and to put pressure on the buyer. 

The dog is four months old. Two months away from half a year. If you purchase an eight week old pup, it's a different ball game. If that dog was two years old, already OFA'ed, lots of drive and the BH on top of it, 3000 Dollars would be appropriate but not for a four month old pup that knows nothing but a kennel and awesome bloodlines can be found anywhere for much cheaper!




MaggieRoseLee said:


> The age is fine, 4 months old is still a puppy.
> 
> The price MAY be a huge issue. IF this is a top experienced responsible breeder with a heck of a background/experience under their belt and a fantastic puppy warranty.... (READ THIS ----> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html ) it may be a reasonable price.
> 
> Can you put up the breeders webpage for us to evaluate a bit and see if anyone has heard of them? Good info can be posted on this main board, and if anyone has some 'heads up ' information they can then PM you...


----------



## MicheleMarie

i got my dog for $1200 at 3 months 3 weeks and the breeder had him started in training and very well socialized  it was kind of the same reason on that dog too-she said two people were lined up to buy him, the first guy broke up with his girlfriend and the 2nd guy lost his job-that' why she had him. 
he is completely bonded to me


----------



## GSDElsa

I think the reason she had not sold him should be your clue that you are overpaying! If she cant get rid of them for less at 8 weeks old......hint hint


----------



## msvette2u

> Should you be able to bond -- absolutely , if the dog has had good social experience to this point, an engagement between the dog and the caretaker.


This is very true. And I wanted to add, perhaps my post was unclear - if the puppy has been kept in a kennel and not interacted with much or at all up until 4mos., then it is likely to have lifelong issues. If interacted with from a young age and socialized well with humans, other dogs, cats and kids, then ability to interact properly with humans and other animals won't be an issue. 
But if not handled daily and worked with from the beginning (birth to 4mos.) you very well could have some problems, in fact I'd count on it. 

As for dog-human bonding, dogs can bond to humans at any age - provided they've had positive interactions with humans since they were born or at least under 4mos. of age.


----------



## orangesss

this dog is working line. So i guess he is overpriced  

Regarding socialization issues .... the website says alot of great stuff, it says they're being socialized with different people and introduced to different sounds, there's a radio constantly playing in the background (LOL?) ... but I could make up a website and include all sorts of bogus and false information .... and like i mentioned since I CANNOT visit the kennel ... which is really unfortunate since im in the middle of nowhere, how would i go about finding whether the puppy has been properly socialized .... if i ask the breeder questions wouldnt the breeder be able to lie to me and say the nicest and most reassuring stuff? How would i go about doing this????

-EDIT: btw thanks for editing the title


----------



## doggiedad

find a few breeders you're interested in. list the breeders. let the
forum members decide if it's a reputable breeder and you're
paying a fair price.



orangesss said:


> this dog is working line. So i guess he is overpriced
> 
> Regarding socialization issues .... the website says alot of great stuff, it says they're being socialized with different people and introduced to different sounds, there's a radio constantly playing in the background (LOL?) ... but I could make up a website and include all sorts of bogus and false information .... and like i mentioned since I CANNOT visit the kennel ... which is really unfortunate since im in the middle of nowhere, how would i go about finding whether the puppy has been properly socialized .... if i ask the breeder questions wouldnt the breeder be able to lie to me and say the nicest and most reassuring stuff? How would i go about doing this????
> 
> -EDIT: btw thanks for editing the title


----------



## NancyJ

You know there is also a lot of variation in breed type. Different kinds of GSDs so maybe you want to take some time, learn about the different attributes of hte various types a little more. Don't rush a 12 year decision.


----------



## BlackPuppy

Yes, orangesss, breeders lie. I was lied to on the purchase of my first dog. I thought I was buying a young, healthy, obedience trained dog. I got an older dog with bad hips and digestive problems, who was only marginally trained, and he was really spooky. I also overpaid by a bundle. So, you are lucky you have people here to get advice from.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

for 3000 bucks that puppy better spit quarters


----------



## carmspack

quote orangess -- "this dog is working line . So I guess he is overpriced" 

okay its gloves off time --- why in the world would working line mean less value ? 

Reverse the thinking why in the world are so many show line pups priced so much higher than a working line could fetch. See the ads in print magazines like Dog World, Dog Fancy , the Pedigree data base and it is not difficult to find a show line puppy starting at $2,500 . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

dvsdevelopment said:


> Four months old is not too old in my opinion.
> 
> $3000 is a lot depending on where you're getting him from. What kennel is this?


The breeder they are looking at is German Shepherd breeder,German Shepherd puppies from Narnia Kennels and I think the dogs look wonderful. A bit pricey but bet they'd be good agility dogs! I'm also thinking you'd have to be very aware of this:





 
REMEMBER: no breeder bashing is allowed and you can get warnings and banned for it ..... so use a PM if you have personal information on the breeder that may fit into that category. But otherwise comments can be made (and I love the looks of the dogs!).


----------



## Emoore

carmspack said:


> quote orangess -- "this dog is working line . So I guess he is overpriced"


C'mon Carmen, you know I love WL dogs as much as anybody, but the simple fact is that the going rate for a nicely breed WL dog is less pricey than the going rate for a nicely bred GSL dog. Personally I think the WLs are *worth* more and a better value, but the going rate is less. 

Look at it like this: $75,000 is way too much to spend on a Ford Truck, but it's about the going rate on a new Cadillac Escalade. Personally, I like Ford trucks better than Escalades and think they're probably worth more, but if I tried to sell you one for the price of a Cadillac I'd still be screwing you over.


----------



## wildo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I'm also thinking you'd have to be very aware of this:


OT, but hey- you posted it...
I hate that video, MRL. Is it even remotely accurate of a high drive GSD? Mals are often described as "GSDs on crack" so why compare a clearly high drive Mal with a high drive GSD? This video scares me every time I see it- when in reality, I'm not totally confident that it paints a realistic picture of a high drive GSD. I _could not_ handle that Mal- I _think I could *probably*_ handle a high drive GSD, probably...

[EDIT]- Every time I watch that video, I can't help but read this comment on it: "There is a difference between high drive and neurotic. "


----------



## carmspack

Emoore I know all too well. For the dog that I put so much time and effort in with x rays (good) and with guarantees to certify being only $$'s more at a year or so - something is very very wrong. 
This is why you have fewer working line breeders. 
Exactly what Coppage and Griffith said to me so many many years ago when they cut loose the working ship and jumped on board the show cruise ship liner . 
No more holding on to dogs to grow them out. Gone - gone gone as soon as they can . Not much expectation in comparison to the working people.

You are going to loose the interest of young people , the next generation of breeders that will move the breed into the next decades. Crotchety old headstrong people like me are heading in to retirement. Had that conversation with Linda the other day --- . Florence beckons, there is always that castle for a penny in Scotland , a shabby flat in London , or Essex as ground zero to zoom around europe . But then there are the dogs. When you want to wane , along comes another holy wow dog , and like the moon the populations waxes.
There has to be something to give as an incentive.

So how exactly does one get $230,000 -- still head shaking puzzled over that one.

Funny that you should mention comparisons in light trucks, vans. My super reliable Safari has close to 370,000 kms , nothing ever but scheduled maintenance !!! Purs on the road , never fails to start , other than being light in the rear and sometimes not getting out as well in a heavy snowfall - a perfect car.
So I have been looking - egged on by my husband who has asked me to get a newer vehicle -- at consumers reports. Did a comparison check -- the Escalade in this report comes up in all categories in the 7's between 7.2 to 7.8 out of a possible 10. The Dodge Ram comes up in all categories in the 9.2's to 9.8's at less than one half of the Escalade --- . The next and scoring best with some 10's and the rest 9.8's is a Nissan product "Titan" but it is $15,000 more than the Dodge Ram.

so who is being screwed and tattoed. Pay for function not for vanity. A fool and his money are soon parted ?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

yah , Wildo , I agree the pup in the video is obsessive -- not high drive -- there is a video of the same dog when older you can see the distraction , not intense focus.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wildo

wildo said:


> I hate that video, MRL. Is it even remotely accurate of a high drive GSD?


To be clear- I sincerely do want to know about this... I started a new thread so as not to muck up this thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/167161-what-high-drive-gsd.html#post2254107

(And thanks Carmen- I did see your comment.)


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

The market drives prices, it's a simple as that.


----------



## Mrs.K

Honestly, paying for a four month old dog, 3000 dollars... that is their own decision, I wouldn't do it.


----------



## LARHAGE

GSDAlphaMom said:


> The market drives prices, it's a simple as that.


Exactly, the free market dictates what people spend, I am so sick of all this showline bashing, yes, I PAID 2500.00 for my puppy because thats what I WANTED, I don't care if a working line puppy can tap dance and whistle Dixie, I DON'T WANT THAT KIND OF PUPPY, this is not a knock on WL dogs, I think they are nice dogs and certainly understand their appeal to a lot of people, but God Dam I am sick and tired of being made to be an idiot because I like showlines, get over it already!!!  There doesn't have to be one type of dog for everybody, my friend has a 1500.00 dollar Quarter Horse trail horse, I have a 5,000 Spotted Saddle Horse trail horse, I LIKE flash and beauty, and that is my right!!!


----------



## Emoore

LARHAGE said:


> Exactly, the free market dictates what people spend, I am so sick of all this showline bashing, yes, I PAID 2500.00 for my puppy because thats what I WANTED, I don't care if a working line puppy can tap dance and whistle Dixie, I DON'T WANT THAT KIND OF PUPPY, this is not a knock on WL dogs, I think they are nice dogs and certainly understand their appeal to a lot of people, but God Dam I am sick and tired of being made to be an idiot because I like showlines, get over it already!!!  There doesn't have to be one type of dog for everybody, my friend has a 1500.00 dollar Quarter Horse trail horse, I have a 5,000 Spotted Saddle Horse trail horse, I LIKE flash and beauty, and that is my right!!!!!


Hear hear. My husband spends $5 every morning of the world on a Frappucchino. I drink Folgers. But the man is gainfully employed and we have the money-- who am I to criticize? I have my own habits I spend money on.

But, back to the OP's original question-- if I tried to charge you Frappucchino prices for a cup of Folgers, you'd say I was out of my mind. Not because it's bad coffee or your morning pick-me-up isn't *worth* it, but because $5 for a cup of plain black coffee is more than the market will bear.


----------



## LaRen616

I like showlines and working lines, I have both and I would love to have a black showline GSD in the future if Robin had one. 

I just dont understand when people say things like " I like pretty dogs" or "I LIKE flash and beauty" about their showlines, yes showlines are pretty dogs but working dogs can and are pretty too.

So I get a little offended everytime I hear people say that.


----------



## LARHAGE

LaRen616 said:


> I like showlines and working lines, I have both and I would love to have a black showline GSD in the future if Robin had one.
> 
> I just dont understand when people say things like " I like pretty dogs" or "I LIKE flash and beauty" about their showlines, yes showlines are pretty dogs but working dogs can and are pretty too.
> 
> So I get a little offended everytime I hear people say that.


 
Yeah, but the showlines are criticised for being flashy and pretty, I think there are gorgeous working lines on this board, but you cannot say they are bashed an iota as much as the showlines, I swear this board would have no topics if not for the same people over and over again dragging showlines through the dirt, they can't get it through their thick skulls that there are showline people like me who love our dogs and are just as proud of them, it gets ridiculous and childish.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

LARHAGE said:


> Exactly, the free market dictates what people spend, I am so sick of all this showline bashing, yes, I PAID 2500.00 for my puppy because thats what I WANTED, I don't care if a working line puppy can tap dance and whistle Dixie, I DON'T WANT THAT KIND OF PUPPY, this is not a knock on WL dogs, I think they are nice dogs and certainly understand their appeal to a lot of people, but God Dam I am sick and tired of being made to be an idiot because I like showlines, get over it already!!!  There doesn't have to be one type of dog for everybody, my friend has a 1500.00 dollar Quarter Horse trail horse, I have a 5,000 Spotted Saddle Horse trail horse, I LIKE flash and beauty, and that is my right!!!


 
Exactly! Everyone on here has their preference, not a thing wrong with that. And I think the vast majority of people on here are respectful and appreciative of all the lines and peoples preferences.

It's a very small fraction that does the bashing. It's unfortunate and it's toward the SL. I've stated before, it makes them appear jealous for lack of a better word, and difficult to appreciate their advise when they come from a place of hate. And that is also unfortunate as I'm sure they have a wealth of knowledge.

It's ok for people to like what they like and pay what they want for what they want. I don't get why some people have such an issue with it.


----------



## LaRen616

LARHAGE said:


> Yeah, but the showlines are criticised for being flashy and pretty, I think there are gorgeous working lines on this board, but you cannot say they are bashed an iota as much as the showlines, I swear this board would have no topics if not for the same people over and over again dragging showlines through the dirt, they can't get it through their thick skulls that there are showline people like me who love our dogs and are just as proud of them, it gets ridiculous and childish.


I was never a real fan of showlines because I thought they only came in black/tan and black/red. I really prefer dark dogs, but the black/reds are really growing on me to the point where I wouldn't mind owning one at some point and I think Gavin is gorgeous! He is definitly one of the dogs that helped me like the black/reds.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Emoore said:


> You can call my workin' dawg ugly. I don't care.


No way Kopper is ugly! And I'm a show line preference person! 
It's true, and yet I can still appreciate and see beauty in 'the dark side'...get it!! lol

Since we know each other and have met each others dogs I know you know this. I'm stating for public point of view!


----------



## carmspack

and I thought it was supposed to be ONE breed .

we have such big problems.

von Stephanitz had so many warnings about this very thing happening .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Josie/Zeus

My Showline does work! Just look at my Zeus driving 










He made sure that the tank stayed there!










Captured a German too!









Odin guarding his jeep and his baby









Look here, guardin the train in case the German's come !


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

LaRen616 said:


> I was never a real fan of showlines because I thought they only came in black/tan and black/red. I really prefer dark dogs, but the black/reds are really growing on me to the point where I wouldn't mind owning one at some point and I think Gavin is gorgeous! He is definitly one of the dogs that helped me like the black/reds.


 
And this is how it should be. We like what we like yet can appreciate what others like!


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Josie/Zeus said:


> My Showline does work! Just look at my Zeus driving


 
Love Zeus Josie! RIP

Heard Koda is going hiking with Kopper this weekend? Is that legal? A SL and a WL hanging out together??? 

I can't make it, have company coming in from out of state. Shoot me an email on how the ears are doing.


----------



## Emoore

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Love Zeus Josie! RIP
> 
> Heard Koda is going hiking with Kopper this weekend? Is that legal? A SL and a WL hanging out together???


We're gonna have a big fight, _Thunderdome_ style.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

It's going to be next weekend! I can't wait!


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

LOL, well according to some 'rhetoric' here, Koda will look very handsome in the fight but Kopper will win. lol


----------



## carmspack

> orangesss;2253856]
> 
> this dog is working line. So i guess he is overpriced


It started with this . And a comment like that puts working dogs into the bargain basement . 

You wonder why German police are having difficulty finding working german shepherds .

I could change my kennel over to showlines but I won't . I could offer something for both interests, but I don't think the "beauty" needs to come from show lines . 

I never said there should not be show lines , or that show lines are bad . I merely pointed out that there is a vast difference in pricing which is not justified.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Josie/Zeus

GSDAlphaMom said:


> LOL, well according to some 'rhetoric' here, Koda will look very handsome in the fight but Kopper will win. lol


 LOL!!!

I don't know, Koda weighs 75 lbs! I better get him swimming all week, build up more muscle and get ready! haha!


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Josie/Zeus said:


> I don't know, Koda weighs 75 lbs! I better get him swimming all week, build up more muscle and get ready! haha!


He could always sit on Kopper until he cries uncle!


----------



## Josie/Zeus

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!! You are on a roll today! Too funny!


----------



## Emoore

I do agree with Carmen that the current price structure is artificial. I don't think that SL dogs are inherently *worth* more as far as being *better* than WL dogs. I can see how that would be bothersome to someone who is selling working line dogs. Or buying show lines for that matter. But it is the milieu in which we find ourselves and we have to work within it, or work to change it. 

You do pay for luxury though. Infinity and Nissan are the same darn car.


----------



## LARHAGE

carmspack said:


> and I thought it was supposed to be ONE breed .
> 
> we have such big problems.
> 
> von Stephanitz had so many warnings about this very thing happening .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
It is ONE breed.


----------



## carmspack

not since the Martin administration.

that train left the station a long time ago


----------



## LARHAGE

orangesss said:


> this dog is working line. So i guess he is overpriced
> 
> It started with this . And a comment like that puts working dogs into the bargain basement .
> 
> You wonder why German police are having difficulty finding working german shepherds .
> 
> I could change my kennel over to showlines but I won't . I could offer something for both interests, but I don't think the "beauty" needs to come from show lines .
> 
> I never said there should not be show lines , or that show lines are bad . I merely pointed out that there is a vast difference in pricing which is not justified.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
And that is your opinion and your right to believe it , but the pricing comes from what people are willing to spend, theres an old adage, a dog or a horse is worth what someone's willing to pay for it.


----------



## LARHAGE

carmspack said:


> not since the Martin administration.


 
Well, as is the case in everything, times change. The Arabian horse is one breed, yet there are different disciplines and horses that have a propensity for certain disciplines are bred to achieve success in those disciplines, we no longer have one type of Arabian horse, there are Park, English Pleasure, Western Pleasure and Halter among others, no one horse could be successful in all of these disciplines today, sure in the 20's they could, you merely changed tack, but not now, yet in spite of these physical differences in the breed, underneath it all still beats the heart and personality of The Arabian Horse, it's not an abomination because they no longer run across the desert with The Bedouins.


----------



## Jack's Dad

The Arabian horse is a good example but we don't have the same conclusions about it.
In the 60's into the 80's aproximately, when entertainers and the wealthy started buying Arabian's, they went for what some considered beauty. They took what was a beautiful, sound horse that could go all day and turned it into what I thought were grotesque spindly, lousy nerved creatures. 
Thankfully the Arabian is making a comeback. Point being when someone or group decides what is beautiful and breeds to achieve that particular look something else is lost. Usually temperament and nerve. There is almost always money and politics involved to the detriment of the animal. Arabian horse or GSD. My uneducated opinion and as former Arabian horse owner and present GSD owner.


----------



## carmspack

and the same thing happened with Quarter horses who were pumped up beasts with tiny feet .

I keep recommending Bred for Perfection by U of T prof Margaret Derry.

when you have comments that it is working its not worth that price , or that it has to spit quarters and it still wouldn't be worth that price --


----------



## CelticGlory

Like Maggie, I also like the dogs as well. I love two of the puppies and both are from different litters. One is more outgoing and spunky, but eager to please. The other is more laid back and both would do well in a family/companion situation (what I'm looking for). Wow, it would be a tough choice. I do love the girl though (Jetta) :wub:. I've never truly taken a look at the sables, but the more I spend time on here looking at other forum member's sables the more I'm falling for them. This has given me a lot to think about. I may look into sables as well and the working line a little more. 

This is a breeder I've seen before in my search for a PP or a SchH prospect. I like them. They always observe the puppies and give you detailed descriptions on them. I haven't seen the price of each puppy listed, but that could be a script blocking issue (I have NoScript on my browser).


----------



## lovethebreed

carmspack;2254249
I never said there should not be show lines said:


> Maybe not in this thread but you are notorious for bashing showlines. I'll go ahead and put it out there.... you (yes you) are the person people refer to when they talk about 'some people that constantly bash showlines'.
> 
> Defensiveness is nothing more than insecurity.
> 
> Live and let be. People have a right to buy what they like and pay what they are willing. It's their money.
> 
> Glass Houses.


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> and the same thing happened with Quarter horses who were pumped up beasts with tiny feet .
> 
> I keep recommending Bred for Perfection by U of T prof Margaret Derry.
> 
> when you have comments that it is working its not worth that price , or that it has to spit quarters and it still wouldn't be worth that price --


You know, my father is pretty much the same opinion as you are. It is not one and the same breed and it started with the Martin administration. You are correct, it is one of the problems with the German police. They have 2000 Euros to spend but the selling price starts at 4000-5000 Euros for a good German Shepherd. No wonder they are going to the Belgian Brother. 

It's not because the GSD is not good enough, it's because they are too expensive and Germans tend to sell to the foreign countries like China or the US rather than selling to our own police. 

That is also on of the reasons why some of the best breeding stock can be found in the US of A. 

It's a multi-billion Dollar Business.


----------



## LARHAGE

Jack's Dad said:


> The Arabian horse is a good example but we don't have the same conclusions about it.
> In the 60's into the 80's aproximately, when entertainers and the wealthy started buying Arabian's, they went for what some considered beauty. They took what was a beautiful, sound horse that could go all day and turned it into what I thought were grotesque spindly, lousy nerved creatures.
> Thankfully the Arabian is making a comeback. Point being when someone or group decides what is beautiful and breeds to achieve that particular look something else is lost. Usually temperament and nerve. There is almost always money and politics involved to the detriment of the animal. Arabian horse or GSD. My uneducated opinion and as former Arabian horse owner and present GSD owner.


Well there are bad breeders in every endeavor, I've been breeding Arabians for 30 years and sure as **** don't see that in my shows, I have bred Champions in Halter and Performance, and different types as well.


----------



## LARHAGE

carmspack said:


> and the same thing happened with Quarter horses who were pumped up beasts with tiny feet .
> 
> I keep recommending Bred for Perfection by U of T prof Margaret Derry.
> 
> when you have comments that it is working its not worth that price , or that it has to spit quarters and it still wouldn't be worth that price --


 
The Quarter Horse breeders liked the bulky look with tiny feet, you'll notice they don't do that as much, but not being into Quarter Horses I don't know their desires, I do know Arabians, and there are fantastic animals in every division, but like with ANY animal, there are crappy breeders who just capitalize on the wrong things, hardly a reflection on the whole breed.


----------



## Mrs.K

LARHAGE said:


> The Quarter Horse breeders liked the bulky look with tiny feet, you'll notice they don't do that as much, but not being into Quarter Horses I don't know their desires, I do know Arabians, and there are fantastic animals in every division, but like with ANY animal, there are crappy breeders who just capitalize on the wrong things, hardly a reflection on the whole breed.


Actually, that was for show purposes. Some of those Horses could barely walk when they were around a year old because of the way they were brought up just for the show. 

People have got to understand that once you breed for beauty, it's the beginning of the end of every breed and race.


----------



## GSDElsa

Are people saying they think a $5000 horse is a lot of money?


----------



## Jonro

Breeders are affected by the recession as much as the person looking to buy a dog. Costs are the same for everyone. As for paying the breeder to" absorb the risk" , it seems to me that a breeder should be allowed to be payed for their time, labor, expenses, and expertise in raising top quality pups. Youcan put same equally bred litter with one excellent breeder and one terrible breeder and end up with just as extreme results in pups. A person breeding AND raising pups does not become proficient without years of hard work and extreme dedication. Y'all need to know all the facts about the 3000$ pup before saying too high priced. Maybe it is and maybe, just maybe, it isn't. Not all breeders are villains.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Are people saying they think a $5000 horse is a lot of money?


It depends on the purpose. Horses are a total different category and league. 

Just boarding itself puts it into a whole different ball game. 

A good starting horse for a teenager can easily cost in the 20 000 euro range.


----------



## Emoore

Jonro said:


> Y'all need to know all the facts about the 3000$ pup before saying too high priced. .


We're talking about a first-time dog owner who wants a pet/companion, and a 16-week old working line pup who's been living in a kennel. Yes, $3000 is too high for this situation. I feel pretty comfortable saying that. If OP just wants to spend that much money, they're free to do so, but they can get a wonderful companion working line dog from a wonderful breeder for half that.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jonro said:


> Breeders are affected by the recession as much as the person looking to buy a dog. Costs are the same for everyone. As for paying the breeder to" absorb the risk" , it seems to me that a breeder should be allowed to be payed for their time, labor, expenses, and expertise in raising top quality pups. Youcan put same equally bred litter with one excellent breeder and one terrible breeder and end up with just as extreme results in pups. A person breeding AND raising pups does not become proficient without years of hard work and extreme dedication. Y'all need to know all the facts about the 3000$ pup before saying too high priced. Maybe it is and maybe, just maybe, it isn't. Not all breeders are villains.



Trust me, it is. If a four month old dog is still at the breeders place, than usually the breeder couldn't get rid of it and there is always a reason unless the breeder wanted to keep it for himself. 

I grew into the breeding business, you can be lucky if you get a 1000 Euros for a four month old, in this economy you more likely have to sell it for the puppy price. Either you get a dog when it's eight week old because of the puppy cuteness and because people want a baby or you usually you wait until they are at least a year of age because of the HD factor. 

But in between, it's very difficult to sell the dogs because you can't guarantee that they won't develope HD and the pre-lims can't always be trusted.


----------



## Jonro

Emoore said:


> We're talking about a first-time dog owner who wants a pet/companion, and a 16-week old working line pup who's been living in a kennel. Yes, $3000 is too high for this situation. I feel pretty comfortable saying that. If OP just wants to spend that much money, they're free to do so, but they can get a wonderful companion working line dog from a wonderful breeder for half that.


In this situation, only kenneled, then the breeder has not earned anything and the pup is basically a rescue. So of course I totally agree.


----------



## LARHAGE

GSDElsa said:


> Are people saying they think a $5000 horse is a lot of money?



For Keeneland prices no, but it's a good amount for a trail horse in today's economy, show horses are a whole nother can of tomatoes.


----------



## CelticGlory

Mrs. K, question: How young can prelims be done? I keep hearing different ages. Some *claim* to prelim at 8wks. and other say you have to wait.


----------



## Dainerra

CelticGlory said:


> Mrs. K, question: How young can prelims be done? I keep hearing different ages. Some *claim* to prelim at 8wks. and other say you have to wait.


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia
4 months old according to OFA


----------



## Chicagocanine

Personally I would be leery of buying a 4 month old puppy sight unseen. Mostly because I would not know what the dog's level of socialization has been. At 4 months you are past the majority of the critical socialization period which is not something you can easily "make-up" later. If the puppy was kept in a kennel for most of those 4 months, that can result in serious behavior issues as an adult. The breeder can say they did all sorts of socialization but how do you know they are telling the truth?


----------



## selzer

I agree totally with Larhage. 

I prefer the looks AND the temperament of the showline dogs, particularly the German Show Lines, but if they were all gone (died out completely) I would go to the American Line dogs before going with a Working Line dog. That is my preference. And I would spend more money for the dog that had the temperament and looks that I want. 

People are offended when people say beauty for to the show line dogs, but the working line people are constantly saying show line dogs can't work and have crappy temperaments, and yet show line dogs ARE being used as police dogs, SAR dogs, and so much more. But we are not supposed to be irritated by that.

Whatever.

As for the original post, is the pup worth $3000? 

If the pup was worth $3000 at eight weeks, it is worth that now. A dog with good temperament does not need tons of socialization. I think that a lot of time all the socialization is a band-aid for weak nerves. I would think that by four months, the pup should have some manners, and its puppy shots, and that might be a benefit to the new owner. Unless the owner has started the dog in some type of training, or has added health screening on the pup, or can guaranty that the pup is a good candidate for some type of work/sport that might not have been evident at 8 weeks, I do not think it should cost more at 16. 

People going for show dogs often want them after they grow up a little, 4-5 months, rather than 8 weeks. Gives them a better idea of what the pup's potential is. And in that case the dog might cost more at that age.


----------



## carmspack

lovethebreed said:


> Maybe not in this thread but you are notorious for bashing showlines. I'll go ahead and put it out there.... you (yes you) are the person people refer to when they talk about 'some people that constantly bash showlines'.
> 
> Defensiveness is nothing more than insecurity.
> 
> Live and let be. People have a right to buy what they like and pay what they are willing. It's their money.
> 
> Glass Houses.


 
No need to whisper . If you are going to put it out there be bold and put it out there instead instead of teeny weeny faint print. You think that I don't know. Yet I stand and deliver and never lose my nerve.
It is what it is . I support show lines but there are issues that have to be ironed out. One of them is a serious look at temperament and working ability , something which has been lost and the trialing accommodates this . My opion? Yes. World opinion ? Yes . Written about by some far more clever people than myself - including spectators at the major shows .
Structure . There has to be a return to a structure as described in the standard. My opinion? Yes. World opinion ? Yes - BBC specials. Frog dogs , horrible misfit structure that you see on the pedigree data base all the time. You can't avoid them.
Do I think show lines would give me a fatal case of rabies -- no . Look into my lines and you will see deliberate placements of show lines --- currently in one of my best dogs Sumo and Journey owned by a forum member.

I've handled them , I've been real close . Unfortuanetly there is a drifting away , further and further from an ideal . I KNOW that there are some very dedicated breeders making the effort to change things. I applaud them. I have recommended them. 

Yesterday's discussion with Linda Shaw, going over some of the great old ASL -- Wiesental's Falco, Viking of Narok , some of the stuff Karl Nemecek handled , dogs handled by Roger Marks - there were lots . The dogs could bloody well work - we had them in our schutzhund club . Now not so much.

German show lines - Marko, Mutz, Bernd, Bodo, even Troll bns , actually many . What happened there? 

The Martin brothers happened . 

I hope that puts that to rest . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wildo

carmspack said:


> German show lines - Marko, Mutz, Bernd, Bodo, even Troll bns , actually many . What happened there?
> 
> The Martin brothers happened .


Who are the Martin brothers? They seem to have been influential in high line GSDs. I'd like to do some research on this... First names?

[EDIT]- Wow! According to this site, "The Martin brothers were probably the greatest breeders the GSD has ever seen." Looks like I should look into this...


----------



## carmspack

Mrs.K said:


> Actually, that was for show purposes. Some of those Horses could barely walk when they were around a year old because of the way they were brought up just for the show.
> 
> People have got to understand that once you breed for beauty, it's the beginning of the end of every breed and race.


 
Yes Mrs K !!! There was no secret about the horses been drugged to make them look bulkier. You could pick up any magazine and see the competing ads for the drugs. The feet were tiny and the horses non functional. This from one of the best horses for utiltity and sturdiness , pride of America to joke.

I'll say the breed of horse that I have Rocky Mountain Horses , lost it when people came on board and put an emphasis on the signature colour, chocolate with flaxen mane and tail. When a foal or filly can fetch 5 - 8 thousand as a weanling IF it has this signature colour, and a weanling even if it has the same stallion same mare but is any other colour and is worth only 2 thousand what do you think is going to happen.

It did happen . Now there are problems . Temperament is not the same super mellow reasonable "born broke" that they were when I got involved. 

The same dynamics happen in every breed .

Carmen
http:/www.carmspack.com


----------



## carmspack

. Y'all need to know all the facts about the 3000$ pup before saying too high priced. Maybe it is and maybe, just maybe, it isn't. Not all breeders are villains.[/QUOTE]

Exactly . If it was a show line that may have been an equitable price .
If it was a working line chances are there have been things done to ad value.

But too say --- if it is a working line no way , spit quarters - , that is not right .

It's not the price . It's the reaction.

Carmen


----------



## lovethebreed

carmspack said:


> No need to whisper . If you are going to put it out there be bold and put it out there instead instead of teeny weeny faint print.


 
Whisper? Teeny weeny faint print? The font is the font and is the same in all my posts.

I called a spade a spade, no whisper about that. You said yourself you knew it was you everyone referred to. That pretty much says it all. 

I will say in this post, it is the kindest words you've had for showlines. That's great you love working lines and the breed, promote that, just don't bash those that prefer something different than you. That's the ugliness people don't like.

No surprise you don't have SL's working in your club. Who would feel welcome there with that attitude.

I've seen just as many WL's with weak nerves if not more than SL's.

It puts to rest what we already know. And since we already know how you feel about SL's, why not give it a rest? *You've been abundantly clear with your line in the sand.* Is this the font you were looking for????

I'll repeat, Glass Houses.


----------



## sagelfn

Emoore said:


> We're talking about a first-time dog owner who wants a pet/companion, and a 16-week old working line pup who's been living in a kennel. Yes, $3000 is too high for this situation. I feel pretty comfortable saying that. If OP just wants to spend that much money, they're free to do so, but they can get a wonderful companion working line dog from a wonderful breeder for half that.


The breeder stated the pup may be suitable for police work. Am I the only one that thinks this is too much dog for a first time owner looking for a companion animal? I think the price and age of the pup are irrelevant. This is not a good match and I would not trust a breeder that would push this dog on someone it is not a good match with.


----------



## Catu

sagelfn said:


> The breeder stated the pup may be suitable for police work. Am I the only one that thinks this is too much dog for a first time owner looking for a companion animal? I think the price and age of the pup are irrelevant. This is not a good match and I would not trust a breeder that would push this dog on someone it is not a good match with.


Not knowing the pup, the breeder nor the possible owner in person... I wouldn't make assumptions, even less of the quality of thr breeder.

Some people want the best of the best available, even for a companion dog, and if they have the money to pay, good for them. If the breeder thinks than an 8 weeks old pup can be a good police prospect it has nothing to do with how good the pup can be as a pet.


----------



## Chicagocanine

selzer said:


> If the pup was worth $3000 at eight weeks, it is worth that now. A dog with good temperament does not need tons of socialization. I think that a lot of time all the socialization is a band-aid for weak nerves.



Every dog needs socialization. Any animal will have problems if you keep it in a box (or kennel) until they're 4 months old. No matter how good their "nerves" may be.


----------



## selzer

Chicagocanine said:


> Every dog needs socialization. Any animal will have problems if you keep it in a box (or kennel) until they're 4 months old. No matter how good their "nerves" may be.


I disagree with this. I have seen dogs that were several months old still with the breeder, who was not doing anything special to socialize them, and their temperaments were fine. In fact she took the 4 month old pup to our club show to show him to a prospective buyer and the pup passed his CGC right there, with nothing but one or two weeks of going to an hour long puppy class -- and nothing else. The whole time someone's brat was hiding in the bushes near the ring, and was making noises at the dog -- I was there, and I was about to clobber her when the judge finally put her foot down. The pup did not have a problem with it though. The dog has good temperament. Owners are happy with him and they have had him over a year now. 

A dog should not have to meet every person, place, or thing they will meet in life, not to spaz out. All this socialization stuff is relatively new -- within the last 15-20 years. Before then people weren't as concerned and dogs were not having the problems they are today. In fact, they used to tell you to take your dog NOWHERE until they had their full complement of shots, 16 weeks minimum. People did this, they kept them home. And the dogs did not grow up to be fear biters, or dog-aggressive.


----------



## onyx'girl

Some breeders will state the fact that the pups may be going to LEO's to impress. Or they'll donate a pup to state that as fact on their websites, though the pup may wash out and end up who knows where. 
Hopefully the OP will do more research on this amazing breed and get just what they are looking for, whether it is a SL or WL. 
Whichever breeder they go with, they are supporting that breeder(hopefully the breeder will support the new owner as well with any issues that may crop up)


----------



## GSDLongTimer

To Carmen's point, yes there are plenty of showlines with weak nerves. Having said that, she leaves out the fact that there are just as many working lines with weak nerves. 

I have seen so many crazy dogs at clubs and they are working lines. I have heard top members in the clubs talk about how crazy their dogs are and I have seen members afraid of dogs in the clubs because they don't trust them (with good reason). 

These are dogs getting schutzhund titles. All working lines. It is not just the Seiger shows that pass questionable 
nerve/temperament.  There is plenty of less than desirable to go around across the board.

These traits need to be improved in each and every line.

Complaints should be directed toward the gsd as a whole. No one line is better than any other. You can find quality dogs in every line as well as equal issues in each line.

Internal bickering within the breed serves no purpose.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

when I said "he better spit quarters", it had nothing to do with 'lines', but more price, he could be a purple lined alien from the moon, as far as I'm concernced.

I just think 3000 bucks for a 4 month old puppy of ANY 'line', is a tad high. Would I pay it? I don't think so, there is so much diversity and great breeders out there, I'd keep looking. If it was a dog I truley wanted, I might..Sight unseen, no way.


----------



## lovethebreed

GSDLongTimer said:


> To Carmen's point, yes there are plenty of showlines with weak nerves. Having said that, she leaves out the fact that there are just as many working lines with weak nerves.
> 
> I have seen so many crazy dogs at clubs and they are working lines. I have heard top members in the clubs talk about how crazy their dogs are and I have seen members afraid of dogs in the clubs because they don't trust them (with good reason).
> 
> These are dogs getting schutzhund titles. All working lines. It is not just the Seiger shows that pass questionable
> nerve/temperament. There is plenty of less than desirable to go around across the board.
> 
> These traits need to be improved in each and every line.
> 
> Complaints should be directed toward the gsd as a whole. No one line is better than any other. You can find quality dogs in every line as well as equal issues in each line.
> 
> Internal bickering within the breed serves no purpose.


 
Exactly what I have been trying to get across, you are just much more eloquent and less bickering.


----------



## carmspack

my position is always to look at the animal, recognize how best to encourage it to come to its full potential - not expect more than it is capable of giving , and appreciating the effort it makes --- no matter what it is , whether mongrel or breed --
I have no club . 
When I train I always welcome others to join in , have invited someone (breeder) to come out , socialize pups, start in tracking , any positive experience to bring the dog to its potential and have fun while doing it.
Never had any discrimination , all breeds , all ages, all levels of experience with handlers . 
That is what I did when I was going through apprentice programme for obedience judge. I tried to point out the positives , tried to help the handler to reduce his frustration , cheered them on , got them excited . One gentleman became a regular with Cross Country Tracking club.
I gave up many a lunch hour to take dogs for walks that were in the local shelter and would not relieve themselves in the kennel runs.
They were old, young, ill mannered, sweet, mongrels , and breeds .

There is something wrong with your font , the word temperament after nerve is 1/3 the size as are the last words e is normal and then it is teeny weeny .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## orangesss

hmmm where to start.

First I'd like to thank those who stayed on topic... i don't meant to sound ignorant since i'm only new here, but if you're going to discuss something about an upcoming trip .. do it else where. I came here with a question and i needed some help, what good does it do to me or any other person who might have the same question browsing through an entire page (or more) filled with saturated information talking about meet up and trips or talking about another GSD even.... seriously? What kind of information are you providing to help the newbie? 

... I don't mean to sound ungrateful and i know you are all here to help but please keep on topic. 

Second, Carmspack, "gloves off" ? I would rather you be honest and blunt from the beginning. If one is sincerely trying to help another for the better, one should tell the truth... no need to be diplomatic. 
You also think I consider Show lines to worth more than Working line or you suspect that I like Show Lines better than working lines.... Don't you think you should have asked for clarifications before you made those assumptions? Had you asked I would have said that i actually think working lines should worth more than a pet that just looks good sitting there or walking on a leash, had you asked I would have said that in my opinions dogs (specially gsd) are not your average pet... they were meant to work and be worked, had you asked, i would have said that i actually think working lines are more good looking than those that were bred specifically for looks, had you asked, i would have said that I've searched every breeder I could find and ruled out show lines from the start.. simply because i don't think they would fit my lifestyle(which is very active and most certainly not your average pet home/owner) ... on another note, what if I was interested in show line? Is jumping on peoples throat your way of "helping" them? Whatever happened to unbiased opinions? If a show line is what they want, who are you to say no? 

And third, just an update, for those who are interested in helping me decide or just interested in seeing how this turns out... I asked for a video of the pup just to see him playing around in his natural environment and what not and basically the breeder denied to sent me a video. It wasnt a firm "NO" answer ... but it was hinted...

--Sorry if i sound ungrateful or rude, but after browsing through entire pages that had nothing to do with the question or a couple of posts that i found somewhat offending i had to clear things up.


----------



## chelle

Ummm that whole thread kinda had me shaking my head back and forth, didn't understand a pretty fair amount of it  but I'd have to say no way on the 3K. Especially sight unseen. 

You mentioned being a first time dog owner and ready to go to training and obedience. Awesome start! But I think you're only at the tip of the iceburg. 

I don't actually think that alone would be enough? Looks like you're considering a pup that's going to also require daily, vigorous exercise and training as well as a job to do. Is that something that will fit in your lifestyle?

I wouldn't worry about the bonding issue, either, unless this pup has been unsocialized where he is. 

Just words from a novice, but seemed like the orig post kinda derailed.


----------



## chelle

Oops, look at that, we posted within a minute of each other... I wouldn't have even posted what I did if I'd read yours first. Sounds like you know what you're in for. I'd delete mine if I was smart enough to figure out how.


----------



## orangesss

chelle said:


> Ummm that whole thread kinda had me shaking my head back and forth, didn't understand a pretty fair amount of it


Yup. That is all i have to say hehe.




> I don't actually think that alone would be enough? Looks like you're considering a pup that's going to also require daily, vigorous exercise and training as well as a job to do. Is that something that will fit in your lifestyle?


Well i'm glad you asked before you jumped on my throat like someone.... uhem..... anyways, yup, i'm very active and love the out doors, i'm also close to mountains and enjoy hiking and snowboarding frequently. i have a huge yard and i;m thinking of setting up a recreation park? (is that what its called?lol) to keep him pre-occupied. And of course i expect him to do alot of activities with me either indoors (like fetching laundry ) or outdoors.





> Just words from a novice, but seemed like the orig post kinda derailed.


You're not the only one.


----------



## orangesss

chelle said:


> Oops, look at that, we posted within a minute of each other... I wouldn't have even posted what I did if I'd read yours first. Sounds like you know what you're in for. I'd delete mine if I was smart enough to figure out how.


hahaha


----------



## Jack's Dad

Is a 4 month old gsd puppy too old to buy. No
For $3000. Yes

To the point?


----------



## orangesss

Jack's Dad said:


> Is a 4 month old gsd puppy too old to buy. No
> For $3000. Yes
> 
> To the point?


To the point? Yes
helpful? No


----------



## lovethebreed

carmspack said:


> .
> 
> There is something wrong with your font , the word temperament after nerve is 1/3 the size as are the last words e is normal and then it is teeny weeny .


It all looks like the same font to me so not sure what is going on. Good to hear your positive stories.

Newbie, I'm not starting a thread to address my font.

If you stay awhile things often get off topic, for better or for worse, if you want to dictate otherwise, apply to be a modarator. 

Carmen doesn't need to ask you those questions (oh my, I'm defending Carmen), replies are to what you started as the OP. There aren't too many first time dog owners that know it all.

How hard would it be for you to train an older pup verses a younger pup? It will be the same as it's up to how good of a trainer you are. All of these dogs are highly intelligent, it's the owners that need most of the training.

Will he become loyal to you? Seriously? Have you done any research on the breed?????


----------



## Emoore

orangesss said:


> ... I don't mean to sound ungrateful and i know you are all here to help but please keep on topic.
> .


Orangesss, I hope you stick around this forum for many years and learn a lot. But, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, if you need a forum where everybody stays on topic and only answers the original question without ever veering off, this forum is NOT for you. I have learned an immense amount about the breed on this forum, every day I learn things I didn't even know that I didn't know, and some of the best comes from off-topic tangents.


----------



## orangesss

lovethebreed said:


> Will he become loyal to you? Seriously? Have you done any research on the breed?????


I wouldn't be calling my self a newbie if i knew it all in the first place. 

I've heard and read that they are the most loyal kind, i've also heard the the opposite..... how do you expect one to know when they've never had a dog of this breed or if they've only spent a limited amount of time with other peoples gsd?
Do you really think I would be asking these kind of questions if I was able to spent some time with a gsd for longer than 20 mins and get to know them?


----------



## orangesss

Emoore said:


> this forum is NOT for you.


Yes, i'm starting to feel this way. i'm not bothered much by the fact that people go off-topic as much as the hostility, specially towards newbies. This might be due to the fact that most members are breeders or club members or have at least several years of experience, who often, while trying to educate others come off (and are) quite rude. 

I have more to say on this, but i'll keep my opinions to myself. That is as far as i'll go off topic.


----------



## onyx'girl

Orangess, not sure your location, but if you have time, maybe check out a GSD rescue near you, foster one or just regularly take a dog away from the kennel to walk...the dog will remember you.

I think understanding this breed will help you see they are one of a kind, even with the different lines.
And really this forum is all about the breed, some people are so passionate that they go off topic to help. Not sure the equine analogy was necessary, but it shows how far breeders change the standard to their interpretation.


----------



## sagelfn

Did anyone point you to this thread yet? ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

I'm sorry if I missed it but what are your plans for the dog? just a companion for an active lifestyle or do you plan to also do schutzhund? agility? herding? etc..


----------



## lovethebreed

Actually from your OP I would not have expected you to know that but from you rant on the hmm where to start post, you state you you think working lines should be worth more than a pretty dog on a leash, you think they should be worked, you think think think stated as if you know so much is is why I made the sarcastic statement. You said you researched every SL breeder you could find and know they won't fit your lifestyle because you are active? Did all those showline breeders really tell you SL can't do anything but look pretty? 

These questions are retorical as I'm making a point.

You're either a newbie looking for answers or you're a 'know it all'....it can't be both.


----------



## orangesss

sagelfn said:


> Did anyone point you to this thread yet? ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
> 
> I'm sorry if I missed it but what are your plans for the dog? just a companion for an active lifestyle or do you plan to also do schutzhund? agility? herding? etc..


I've read that the first time i signed up for the account, i've also read a ton of other websites regarding that. The website gives a general checklist if you will to follow or take into consideration, like i've said a couple of times before, it's hard to tell when you are unable to visit the breeder.

Yes, im planning to do more things with him like Schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking (those are the few i have in mind at the moment)


----------



## Emoore

orangesss said:


> Yes, i'm starting to feel this way. i'm not bothered much by the fact that people go off-topic as much as the hostility, specially towards newbies. .


I apologize if you're feeling hostility towards newbies, especially from me. We can't stay on topic to save our souls and some of us tend to talk in a wiseass tone, but 98% of us have nothing against newbies. You'll also find that a lot of us can get in an intense and heated "discussion" about a topic but still be friends. Give us a chance!


----------



## chelle

orangesss said:


> Yes, i'm starting to feel this way. i'm not bothered much by the fact that people go off-topic as much as the hostility, specially towards newbies. This might be due to the fact that most members are breeders or club members or have at least several years of experience, who often, while trying to educate others come off (and are) quite rude.
> 
> I have more to say on this, but i'll keep my opinions to myself. That is as far as i'll go off topic.


Well I'm none of the above  . My sweet pup Bailey is from an OOPS litter between his WGSD mama and a Siberian Husky. OH NO! :crazy:

And btw, the hostility doesn't necessarily end once you're no longer a newbie! :help: :rofl::happyboogie::welcome::gsdsit:

Nah, but really... there are some really awesome people here. And a few not as awesome people.  I guess it's just a matter of weeding some of it out. Keep your sense of humor as best you can and you'll pick up a lot of info.


----------



## onyx'girl

> The website gives a general checklist if you will to follow or take into consideration, like i've said a couple of times before, it's hard to tell when you are unable to visit the breeder.


If you are unable to visit the breeder, look at what the breeder has produced in the past...you should be able to do that with a google of the kennel name, their progeny should pop up if they have accomplishments. Websites can be very good or bad, don't base what is on a website as criteria for choosing a breeder. Get out and look at dogs as others have posted...it really is a way to learn.


----------



## orangesss

lovethebreed said:


> Actually from your OP I would not have expected you to know that but from you rant on the hmm where to start post, you state you you think working lines should be worth more than a pretty dog on a leash, you think they should be worked, you think think think stated as if you know so much is is why I made the sarcastic statement. You said you researched every SL breeder you could find and know they won't fit your lifestyle because you are active? Did all those showline breeders really tell you SL can't do anything but look pretty?
> 
> These questions are retorical as I'm making a point.


Although your post was a bit hard to understand, i will address your questions; No a show line breeder did not say they "can't do anything". When i had spoken with a schutzhund member and friend , she suggested i get a working line simply because my lifestyle and the activities that i have planned for him would have not been met by a showline. plus I have no intention on participating in any sort of shows .. i'm actually quite opposed to it. 



> You're either a newbie looking for answers or your a 'know it all'....it can't be both.


LOL. Of course you can. That statement defies logic. I can't even be bothered to analyze why this is so... and i mean that in the nicest way possible


----------



## lovethebreed

Actully there was nothing directed at you until the 'where do I start rant' jumping on folks for getting off topic.

True enough someone that has been here a while can probably get away with that but it's a bit arrogant for a newbie to come on with it. 

Look back at the thread prior to that post, there is no animosity toward you. This is a great forum but anyone with thin skin is going to get their feeling hurt from time to time.


----------



## lovethebreed

Rhetorical - in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply.

I stand corrected, one can be a newbie and know it all...but why would a know it all have any questions? That would also be a rhetorical question.


----------



## sagelfn

So... back to the topic.

OP are you still considering this puppy or looking to move on to another breeder and just lost on what you are looking for?


----------



## orangesss

lovethebreed said:


> Actully there was nothing directed at you until the 'where do I start rant' jumping on folks for getting off topic.


"jumping on folks" ???? LOL. I simply asked people to stay on topic, i did not "jump on folks" , i was explaining why staying on topic would be a good idea for future newbies who are seeking the answers to the same question. You can't convey peoples tone on the internet and you surely can't make assumptions before clarifying. In that post I made clear i wasn;t trying to be rude.... re-read it, i apologized in advance 2 times if I sounded rude, just to avoid people wrongfully assuming my intentions. 



> Look back at the thread prior to that post, there is no animosity toward you. This is a great forum but anyone with thin skin is going to get their feeling hurt from time to time.


There is no animosity towards me because most of it had nothing to do with the question. 
My feelings are not hurt... it's the internet. 

And this is as far i will discuss this with you. You can direct anything at me, hostile or not. It makes no difference


----------



## lovethebreed

Now you're getting the hang of it!!


----------



## orangesss

sagelfn said:


> So... back to the topic.
> 
> OP are you still considering this puppy or looking to move on to another breeder and just lost on what you are looking for?


don't know, i'm not as keen on purchasing him as much as i did. Kind of lost while still looking while considering rescue(which i did a couple of months back)  hehe.


----------



## Jack's Dad

QUOTE=orangesss;2254741Second, Carmspack, "gloves off" ? I would rather you be honest and blunt from the beginning. If one is sincerely trying to help another for the better, one should tell the truth... no need to be diplomatic. 
You also think I consider Show lines to worth more than Working line or you suspect that I like Show Lines better than working lines.... Don't you think you should have asked for clarifications before you made those assumptions? Had you asked I would have said that i actually think working lines should worth more than a pet that just looks good sitting there or walking on a leash, had you asked I would have said that in my opinions dogs (specially gsd) are not your average pet... they were meant to work and be worked, had you asked, i would have said that i actually think working lines are more good looking than those that were bred specifically for looks, had you asked, i would have said that I've searched every breeder I could find and ruled out show lines from the start.. simply because i don't think they would fit my lifestyle(which is very active and most certainly not your average pet home/owner) ... on another note, what if I was interested in show line? Is jumping on peoples throat your way of "helping" them? Whatever happened to unbiased opinions? If a show line is what they want, who are you to say no? [/QUOTE]

Carmen doesn't need me to defend her but ragging on her was not a good start for me. She and others are incredibily knowledgible about the breed.
Carmen could tell you about every dog that was anybody all the way back to the beginnings. Look at her website and what her dogs have accomplished. 
Having said that I, went through exactly what you did almost 5yrs. ago. I looked at websites for months and wondered all the same things you wonder. I kept going back to one site because the breeder talked more about the GSD and what it should be. Her interest in the breed as opposed to just being all about her dogs was finally was what got me. It worked out great. I have a dog with great nerve is temperamentally sound and is more than what I could have ever expected. I'm not promoting her specifically but look at her site and maybe you will see what I mean.

adlerstein.com


----------



## orangesss

> Carmen doesn't need me to defend her but ragging on her was not a good start for me. She and others are incredibily knowledgible about the breed.


"ragging" ? or raging?

I was not raging on her, she was fairly rude to me and I only responded in the same way but not more hostile. Just because someone is more knowledgeable doesn't give them the right to treat others as if they worth less respect. 

I see a couple of people defending carmspack, but what are you defending? i was nowhere near hostile, i simply asked that maybe it would be a good idea to ask more clarifications about me before she jumped into conclusions. 

LOL, this is actually getting funny.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jack's Dad said:


> QUOTE=orangesss;2254741STE=Jack's Dad;2254831]Having said that I, went through exactly what you did almost 5yrs. ago. I looked at websites for months and wondered all the same things you wonder. I kept going back to one site because the breeder talked more about the GSD and what it should be. Her interest in the breed as opposed to just being all about her dogs was finally was what got me. It worked out great. I have a dog with great nerve is temperamentally sound and is more than what I could have ever expected. I'm not promoting her specifically but look at her site and maybe you will see what I mean.
> 
> adlerstein.com


Interesting how you just skipped all of the above. 

You don't want to learn anything.


----------



## selzer

Does anybody believe in reincarnation?

Can it happen on an internet site?

Oh shucks, would that be considered going off topic?


----------



## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> Does anybody believe in reincarnation?
> 
> Can it happen on an internet site?
> 
> Oh shucks, would that be considered going off topic?


Certainly be more productive than this.


----------



## lovethebreed

selzer said:


> Does anybody believe in reincarnation?
> 
> Can it happen on an internet site?
> 
> Oh shucks, would that be considered going off topic?


That literally made me laugh out loud! I was about to reply to Jack's dad as his statement 'you don't want to learn anything' just clicked for me. I think this is a young person, it makes more sense now.

Jack is that you that has the sign on your fridge that says 'ask my teenager while he still knows everything'?

Someone just talked about that the other day, cracked me up.


----------



## onyx'girl

Andy obviously did his research, and he did it well.


----------



## robinhuerta

As a breeder of WGSL's and an owner of both WGSL's & WL's.....IMHO... $3000 is a higher price for ANY GSD puppy.
I don't think that SL's should cost more than WL's.....I think ALL puppies should be "fair priced".....but each breeder has their own ideals and price worth.
There is *no* right or wrong answer. It is simply what each breeder "expects/wants" for financial compensation ($$) for their puppies/dogs...and what a buyer finds acceptable and is willing to spend.
I don't find $3000 an outrageous price for a 4 mo old puppy of any bloodline....(higher price yes....outragious...no).
If I decided to sell a puppy after the age of 4mos *that I was specifically keeping for myself*.....I would most definitely charge more money for it......after all, It was the puppy *I kept back*.
There are excellent pups/dogs from all bloodlines....this SL vs WL (BS) is juvenile, redundant & boring.
My SL's work along with the WL's......and my WL's can hold their own in the Conformation venues.


----------



## chelle

Thread going downhill... fast...


----------



## bocron

carmspack said:


> Exactly what Coppage and Griffith said to me so many many years ago when they cut loose the working ship and jumped on board the show cruise ship liner .
> No more holding on to dogs to grow them out. Gone - gone gone as soon as they can . Not much expectation in comparison to the working people.
> 
> You are going to loose the interest of young people , the next generation of breeders that will move the breed into the next decades. Crotchety old headstrong people like me are heading in to retirement. Had that conversation with Linda the other day --- . Florence beckons, there is always that castle for a penny in Scotland , a shabby flat in London , or Essex as ground zero to zoom around europe . But then there are the dogs. When you want to wane , along comes another holy wow dog , and like the moon the populations waxes.
> There has to be something to give as an incentive.
> 
> So how exactly does one get $230,000 -- still head shaking puzzled over that one.
> 
> so who is being screwed and tattoed. Pay for function not for vanity. A fool and his money are soon parted ?
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


This whole post so rings true! I'm always amazed at the SL folks who show up at our SchH club. They can't wait to tell us how much they paid. The funny part is that they usually can't tell the difference between the SL dogs and the WL dogs in the club. I'm not being nasty, it's just something that I've noticed. They don't see any difference overall other than color! Oh, and they like the bigger dogs better which is why they chose SL. They don't notice the difference in drive or ease of training (usually). They really just have no way to know what to expect so have no expectations overall. Generally they are pretty happy with their dogs, so I guess that is a good thing. Every now and then someone gets the bug to really get into SchH and then you will see their outlook change on what they want, but mostly not. 

Oh, and the post back at the beginning where the OP wasn't quite sure if the pup they were looking at was WL or SL didn't surprise me. Most of the SL owners we get out at the club are totally convinced they have working line dogs. I think the fact that the dogs come from SchH titled stock means WL to them and they don't get the difference until being around awhile and learning about the different lines. I can see how that would confuse a hopeful new GSD owner.


----------



## orangesss

So basically this puppy would be a good choice but not for the price it's listed at? 
What would be a normal price range for this pup?

-sidenote, i really have no idea if the pup has been socialized frequently or done all the things the breeder claimed. I asked for a video, she kinda said no.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> Does anybody believe in reincarnation?
> 
> Can it happen on an internet site?
> 
> Oh shucks, would that be considered going off topic?


lol, I never believed in it, but now I am doubting myself.


----------



## Jack's Dad

A new version of mal-16.


----------



## onyx'girl

> Every now and then someone gets the bug to really get into SchH and then you will see their outlook change on what they want, but mostly not.


When I first started at a club(SL breeder's group) I had Onyx(mixed lines, no pedigree) who washed out. 
I decided to get a pup to continue w/ ScH and the breeder(head of the group) commented often to me that I should get a pup from her kennel, she had litters on the ground often and they were good dogs from solid herding lines. 
I told her I wanted a WL, no offense. Most of the group had SL's(except the LEO K9 members that were helping us get started) and after I got my puppy from a WL breeder it seemed I was placed at the bottom of the list or overlooked during training. I was the only one w/ a WL... they were into conformation ring training too, so that took up time during training. It wasn't a good fit for me as I wasn't going to do the shows with my ugly working dog(though was encouraged so he would get beat out by the SL's in his class!) I should have been offended, but I knew it wasn't worth crying over. Line bias can work both ways.


> I think the fact that the dogs come from SchH titled stock means WL to them and they don't get the difference until being around awhile and learning about the different lines.


 I was training a month ago with a new GSD owner and he didn't know what he had. He didn't have his dog with him, but couldn't tell me...another had one from a commercial show (local) kennel and he also thought his dog was a WL due to all the titles in the pedigree.


----------



## robinhuerta

Orangess
To be honest...I did not look at who or where the puppy is from.....I'm not breeder/kennel/bloodline biased.....
My concern would be that the breeder "declines" offering a prospective buyer additional information.....that in itself, would make me question or have concerns.
A breeder should always want to make sure that the buyer & dog be properly matched.
*not the price of the dog*
But that's just my personal opinion...


----------



## Jack's Dad

lovethebreed said:


> That literally made me laugh out loud! I was about to reply to Jack's dad as his statement 'you don't want to learn anything' just clicked for me. I think this is a young person, it makes more sense now.
> 
> Jack is that you that has the sign on your fridge that says 'ask my teenager while he still knows everything'?
> 
> Someone just talked about that the other day, cracked me up.


Don't have a sign but have you ever known one (a teenager) that didn't know everything.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova

carmspack said:


> and I thought it was supposed to be ONE breed .
> 
> we have such big problems.
> 
> von Stephanitz had so many warnings about this very thing happening .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


:thumbup:


----------



## orangesss

robinhuerta said:


> Orangess
> To be honest...I did not look at who or where the puppy is from.....I'm not breeder/kennel/bloodline biased.....
> My concern would be that the breeder "declines" offering a prospective buyer additional information.....that in itself, would make me question or have concerns.
> A breeder should always want to make sure that the buyer & dog be properly matched.
> *not the price of the dog*
> But that's just my personal opinion...


There was extensive exchange in emails and she did asked to clarify about my lifestyle before she chose a puppy for me, i think so far we exchanged 20 email. She didn't have the pedigrees on the website for some of her pups that she thought would fit me, i asked her about them, she replied. But the video is kinda bugging me. Why is she having trouble or reservations showing me the pup in action?


----------



## robinhuerta

Well......I don't own a video camera.....perhaps she/he doesn't either?
If someone needed a video from me.....I would have to hire a friend to come out and take one for me.
*Shoot.....I just learned how to post pics here! LOL!*


----------



## orangesss

robinhuerta said:


> Well......I don't own a video camera.....perhaps she/he doesn't either?
> If someone needed a video from me.....I would have to hire a friend to come out and take one for me.
> *Shoot.....I just learned how to post pics here! LOL!*


nah. She mentioned at one point that she had sent videos of her newly acquired dogs to their old owners back in czech republic ... to show them how well behaved the dog was and how quick he was able to learn english commands


----------



## e.rigby

Haha, well, I was going to contribute to this thread, but I'm kind of thinking somewhere lost in the 15 pages it's already been said 

$3000 (to me) is a lot for a puppy - even a well bred one. If this puppy hasn't been worked with (trained and socialized) in the time the breeder has had it then I'd pass! If this puppy has been trained and is social and has had many good experiences with people, dogs, and other animals then it might be something I'd consider... 

My advice would be to find a breeder you like, get on a waiting list, and get your puppy at 8wks  $1200 - $2000 is a little more typical of a well bred pet quality gsd!


----------



## NancyJ

The thread is just going more and more downhill.
Why the heck can't you just travel to meet a breeder and puppy?
And what about this club? Do any of them have a dog you really like? They are the ones you need to chat with.

I think if I did not already have a solid trusted contact I would be travelling.

When I got my last dog (an adult), even though most of the arrangments were online and video I had some one go check out the dog for me, had the seller take him to the vet at my expense for some bloodwork and x-rays, then flew up to meet him before a final commitiment. 

The one dog I got from contacts through an online discussion group was not really what I was looking for....I could probably pull it off now because I have a better handle on what I am looking for but back then, no.

As is I will be driving 8 hours each way in a few weeks to get my next puppy. In my experience I have not seen Czech dogs sell for any kind of premium compared to other dogs. The main change I have seen is the price of young adult green police prospects go up


----------



## chelle

Jack's Dad said:


> A new version of mal-16.


Ewww I might be new here, but that's harsh.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Wow this thread is still going! Someone let me know who wins the Koda/Kopper throw down! lol

OP if there is doubt the answer is no, pretty much in anything in life. Find another pup. How's that for direct.


----------



## chelle

orangesss said:


> -sidenote, i really have no idea if the pup has been socialized frequently or done all the things the breeder claimed. I asked for a video, she kinda said no.


Don't know that I'd put much crediblity on a vid. I mean, you can manipulate that too easily. You could take 150 of them and choose the one that makes the pup look the best.

Maybe more specific, directed questions about the pup's socialization?


----------



## Jack's Dad

chelle said:


> Ewww I might be new here, but that's harsh.


Selzer started it by talking about reincarnation.


----------



## lovethebreed

Jack's Dad said:


> Don't have a sign but have you ever known one (a teenager) that didn't know everything.


Yep every single one of them know everything until they are about 30 or so then the smart ones start figuring out just how smart their parents, teachers, etc really are.

To quote one of my great professors in college:

If someone calls you an 'arse', no big deal.
If ten people call you an 'arse', it's time to get a saddle.

Tell that to a teen and you get a 'huh'?


----------



## robinhuerta

_What does that "tiny little voice inside your head tell you??"...or that particular inner gut/6th sense say to you?......perhaps the best advice is to listen to it._


----------



## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> A new version of mal-16.


Thanks Andy,

I don't own a video camera either. But I might get someone to videotape something for breeders I worked closely for and imported dogs out of.

Frankly, 20 e-mails back and forth prior to a sale, and that usually means the prospective puppy buyer has hung themselves somehow. Maybe the puppy is $3000 because she really does not want to sell you a puppy. People have different criteria on how to determine who should have one of their pups. If someone tells you flat out that they will not sell you a puppy, you might get mad. If someone tells you the pup is $4500, you will tell them thanks but no thanks. And then it is your decision, you are in control, and no hard feelings to the breeder -- they have a reason their puppies are as expensive as they are, and you will go elsewhere. 

And, if I am holding a pup back for myself, then I am going to raise the price on that puppy. If someone wants to pay me x for that puppy, than I might just pick one out of another litter for myself. But x is not going to be cheap. 

And just because you do not want to show, don't like showing, have something against showing, doesn't mean that a puppy that is show-worthy should be sold for less because of what you might want to do with it. The value of the puppy is not dependent on what you want the puppy for. The amount that you are willing to pay for a puppy might be dependent on that, but that would suggest looking for another puppy. 

If I had a nickel for all the time people tell me, but I don't care about trials or titles, I just want a pet. Well if you were buying a corvette and all you want is a chevette, should they give you the corvette for the price of the chevette?


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

selzer said:


> If I had a nickel for all the time people tell me, but I don't care about trials or titles, I just want a pet. Well if you were buying a corvette and all you want is a chevette, should they give you the corvette for the price of the chevette?


 
I can't image anyone wanting a corvette over a chevette!! 

1984 chevrolet chevette, Used Cars For Sale - Carsforsale.com


----------



## CelticGlory

Did anyone besides me read the puppy information page? I read through the whole page and their procedures and what to expect to receive for those buying from a long distance a copy of parents and puppy's pedigree. 

The OP said they exchanged 20 emails, no mentions of calls...do you think this breeder could be wary after so many emails by not talking to this person on the phone? Is that a reason to deny a video?


----------



## selzer

I think a video of the puppy is an unreasonable request. pictures fine. I do not ship puppies, and will not so if people want to come and see them, they can. In fact, they have to come and pick up the puppy.


----------



## CelticGlory

Well the breeder is in Canada, I'm not sure where the OP is from. It was asked before and never answered.


----------



## selzer

Do you get reincarnated to the same place?

Sorry, off topic again, 

BAD!!! BAD BAD BAD!!!

Should stop now...


----------



## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> Do you get reincarnated to the same place?
> 
> Sorry, off topic again,
> 
> BAD!!! BAD BAD BAD!!!
> 
> Should stop now...


Don't know about the place. Just hope you don't come back as a Rottiedoodle or a Boogle. I made up the Boogle one.


----------



## selzer

I am going to have nightmares about that Rottiedoodle though. Garn! and I have a huge day tomorrow. Taking my nieces to the farm park. Oops this is not the random thread. Ok, better head out. Play nice. Get in before curfew, and go to sleep early.


----------



## carmspack

robinhuerta said:


> As a breeder of WGSL's and an owner of both WGSL's & WL's.....IMHO... $3000 is a higher price for ANY GSD puppy.
> I don't think that SL's should cost more than WL's.....I think ALL puppies should be "fair priced".....but each breeder has their own ideals and price worth.
> There is *no* right or wrong answer. It is simply what each breeder "expects/wants" for financial compensation ($$) for their puppies/dogs...and what a buyer finds acceptable and is willing to spend.
> I don't find $3000 an outrageous price for a 4 mo old puppy of any bloodline....(higher price yes....outragious...no).
> If I decided to sell a puppy after the age of 4mos *that I was specifically keeping for myself*.....I would most definitely charge more money for it......after all, It was the puppy *I kept back*.
> There are excellent pups/dogs from all bloodlines....this SL vs WL (BS) is juvenile, redundant & boring.
> My SL's work along with the WL's......and my WL's can hold their own in the Conformation venues.


 
Thank you Robin. This was not a versus discussion . This was a defense against 

"this dog is working line. So i guess he is overpriced  "

which in one instant no matter what the dog had to offer diminished his worth. That is wrong.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## chelle

Rottiedoodle, boogle??????????? What's funny is you say only the Boogle is made up? So the rottiedoodle really exists? Oh my.


----------



## Mrs.K

Orangesss, if I was you, I'd go with the contacts from the club. Those dogs you can see with your own eyes. You can look at them. The 3000 Dollar pup, apparantly you won't even get a vid. I'd never buy a dog I don't see or from somebody I cant trust. Sometimes contacts is all you got.


----------



## Samba

I don't think the OP was saying the dog was over priced because it was a working line dog! As I read the thread, the OP was given information here as to the usual and customary WL pricing. It was then something that could be surmised from the info given.


----------



## orangesss

Samba said:


> I don't think the OP was saying the dog was over priced because it was a working line dog! As I read the thread, the OP was given information hete as to the usual and customary WL pricing. It was then something that could be surmised from the info given.


And you are spot on... it was a conclusion i drew from the information that was given to me on this thread and not an expression of my opinions. But meh, people can believe whatever they want at this point.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Samba said:


> I don't think the OP was saying the dog was over priced because it was a working line dog! As I read the thread, the OP was given information here as to the usual and customary WL pricing. It was then something that could be surmised from the info given.


Samba:

Why do you always want to come along and start making sense. Spoil sport.


----------



## Mrs.K

Well, OP wanted to have an opinion because he wants to make sure the pricing is justifiable. Since OP is unable to actually see that pup, I wouldn't do it. 

I've read the other topic from OP and if I was in his/her shoes I'd check out the contacts I could get from the club, see those pups with my own eyes before I'd throw 3000 dollars out the window, not knowing what I get. That the breeder doesn't want to send you a video is a huge red flag in my book.


----------



## Samba

Sorry


----------



## carmspack

lovethebreed said:


> Maybe not in this thread but you are notorious for bashing showlines. I'll go ahead and put it out there.... you (yes you) are the person people refer to when they talk about 'some people that constantly bash showlines'.
> 
> Defensiveness is nothing more than insecurity.
> 
> Live and let be. People have a right to buy what they like and pay what they are willing. It's their money.
> 
> Glass Houses.


 
Please do check out those other threads and you will see that there is no bashing . I am making a point and validating it with foot notes and evidence . There have been symposiums , lectures, attention paid by geneticists, seminars at Guelph, Oirschot lectures , BBC specials , CBC specials , 60 Minutes etc. and much written , which gives the warning that the there is a genetic bottle neck . You see a decline in health and vigor. Those are recorded facts . Life expectancy tables .
I gave historic notes of how the Martin brothers derailed the breed . Gave you excerpts from Malcolm Willis , Brian Wooton on historic notes about the prime players - Canto Wienerau et al.

I demonstrated by taking two anonymous animals and only working with the 3rd generation that they could have been one and the same , only jumbled names , and that each had very dense back massing on only 3 or 4 names, which themselves were inbred .

One of the pedigrees analysed in such a manner is the subject of another thread , with virtually non existant hips.

if you like what you have in show lines there do have to be changes made in rebalancing them, bringing them back somehow to the days prior to the Martins.

I don't think that is going to happen en masse , individual kennels YES, the entire SV no way.

By that I stand . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K

I would sign that statement any time. She is absolutely correct. 

We all know there are showlines out there that can work. But that does not mean that all those issues and problems don't exist. 



carmspack said:


> Please do check out those other threads and you will see that there is no bashing . I am making a point and validating it with foot notes and evidence . There have been symposiums , lectures, attention paid by geneticists, seminars at Guelph, Oirschot lectures , BBC specials , CBC specials , 60 Minutes etc. and much written , which gives the warning that the there is a genetic bottle neck . You see a decline in health and vigor. Those are recorded facts . Life expectancy tables .
> I gave historic notes of how the Martin brothers derailed the breed . Gave you excerpts from Malcolm Willis , Brian Wooton on historic notes about the prime players - Canto Wienerau et al.
> 
> I demonstrated by taking two anonymous animals and only working with the 3rd generation that they could have been one and the same , only jumbled names , and that each had very dense back massing on only 3 or 4 names, which themselves were inbred .
> 
> One of the pedigrees analysed in such a manner is the subject of another thread , with virtually non existant hips.
> 
> if you like what you have in show lines there do have to be changes made in rebalancing them, bringing them back somehow to the days prior to the Martins.
> 
> I don't think that is going to happen en masse , individual kennels YES, the entire SV no way.
> 
> By that I stand .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## lovethebreed

GSDLongTimer said:


> To Carmen's point, yes there are plenty of showlines with weak nerves. Having said that, she leaves out the fact that there are just as many working lines with weak nerves.
> 
> I have seen so many crazy dogs at clubs and they are working lines. I have heard top members in the clubs talk about how crazy their dogs are and I have seen members afraid of dogs in the clubs because they don't trust them (with good reason).
> 
> These are dogs getting schutzhund titles. All working lines. It is not just the Seiger shows that pass questionable
> nerve/temperament. There is plenty of less than desirable to go around across the board.
> 
> These traits need to be improved in each and every line.
> 
> Complaints should be directed toward the gsd as a whole. No one line is better than any other. You can find quality dogs in every line as well as equal issues in each line.
> 
> Internal bickering within the breed serves no purpose.


 
*Above is as real as it gets.*

Do check out Carmen's old threads in reference to SL.
There she has documented multiple times all the problems with the showlines. The reason it has been referred to as 'bashing' is she fails to mention that the exact same problems are in the working lines! 

Talk about the issues as a breed and it's realistic. Blame it on one line and it's bashing.

Defensiveness makes it difficult to see what's at the end of one's nose.


----------



## Mrs.K

Do we really have to go on to a personal bashing spree?


----------



## lovethebreed

Mrs.K said:


> Do we really have to go on to a personal bashing spree?


 
Calling someone out on documented statements is not bashing. General statements on defensivenss is not bashing, and a defensive person would never know it was about them anyway. Defensive people are never wrong.

How about this one...many people can't see the forest for the trees.

Believe me the real 'bashing' on said person goes on ALOT in personal emails (and with numerous members). It is not put on this forum.


----------



## Mrs.K

We? Who is we and that you can speak for all those people? 

And how petty is that to bash somebody in private just because they don't agree with you? 

Carmspack is one of the most valuable members of this forum. I do not agree with everything she says but I don't bash anyone on or off the forum just because I have a different opinion. That is the most childish behaviour I've seen in a long time.


----------



## lovethebreed

I hate to break it to you but it's a free world and I live in a free country where we get to speak our minds. 

'We' are respectful enough to not put in on this forum, not to mention it's not allowed. 

Sorry it's not about not agreeing, it's about the non stop bashing over and over and over and over and over and over and over at every opportunity.

If the truth is spoken that the problems lie in the entire breed, it will stop, as long as it's pinned on the dreaded show lines it probably won't.

Do you really think I'm going to list out the members here? Really??? lol

Call it anything you want but there is nothing you can do about it.


----------



## Mrs.K

ROFL... constant bashing, eh? 

The Showline breeders have done an incredible amount of damage to the breed an you can't denie it. If the Showline had any working qualities you would find them amongst the police in Germany but you simply can't. 
Working line is still found but since it gets more and more expensive to find a good working line dog they more and more buy the Malinois. 

It doesn't mean that the Showline can't work at all. There are many that do RH or Therapy or whatever else they do. 

But as long as you breed for beauty and not for working qualities, you are ruining the breed. Period. 

And this topic was never about show vs. working line. So good job in getting it off topic with your personal vendetta.


----------



## Jax08

lovethebreed said:


> Calling someone out on documented statements is not bashing. General statements on defensivenss is not bashing, and a defensive person would never know it was about them anyway. Defensive people are never wrong.
> 
> How about this one...many people can't see the forest for the trees.
> 
> *Believe me the real 'bashing' on said person goes on ALOT in personal emails (and with numerous members). **It is not put on this forum.*


Sounds like you have a personal issue with Carmen that goes beyond this thread, or this forum. So maybe you need take it back to being a personal issue and deal with it privately. All I see is someone trying to pick a fight over sour grapes...you...that's you I'm talking about just to be clear.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Sounds like you have a personal issue with Carmen that goes beyond this thread, or this forum. So maybe you need take it back to being a personal issue and deal with it privately. All I see is someone trying to pick a fight over sour grapes...you...that's you I'm talking about just to be clear.


Yeah, sounds like mobbing and bullying to me. Especially since he/she had to point out that it's done with numerous members. :help:


----------



## lovethebreed

_Mrs K ' So good job in getting it off topic with your personal vendetta. '_

Your welcome Mrs K. And good job to you for 'making the offline chat session'

Jax08, actually there are two folks discussed on the personal email chat (no names but he is the know it all of dogfood guy), well it was two. I just received a couple this morning as Mrs K has made the infamous chat. lol 

Quite clear on who you are speaking too. And you will be delighted to know we do do this offline! (I believe I mentioned it above but perhaps you missed that point).


----------



## lovethebreed

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, sounds like mobbing and bullying to me. Especially since he/she had to point out that it's done with numerous members. :help:


Doesn't said person have to be involved to be bullied? 

Bully:
a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates *smaller or* *weaker people. *

I had no idea the people we discussed were weak. I'll have to confirm that as I certainly don't want to hurt a 'weak' person. 

Thanks for the enlightment Mrs K.


----------



## robinhuerta

Mrs K.......when breeders breed for *any one quality*...they are ruining "that" breed.
Breeds consist of "multiple" qualities......not just a single one.
As for the showline breeders have done an incredible amount of damage to this breed.....this is an "umbrella statement".....and has become quite old & expired.
The Martins had a HUGE part in the separation of SL vs WL....taking the SL dogs & breeders on a roller coaster ride of problems. BUT...so has the way of the WL.
Many breeders of BOTH, are diligent in their breeding's and produce sound, healthy, stable animals. Because person(s) do not fancy a particular "look"....warrants no justification on how that animal can and cannot perform or work.
Breeders of "today" can only do their best for the future....no breeder can change "yesterday".......just as no one can be blamed for the path of their ancestors...it matters what is being done "today & tomorrow".
*Dictatorship* is completely different than "educating others, giving unbiased opinions & learned lessons".....
*Dictatorship* creates "lemmings" and cult mentality......the *true* demise of breeding's and good dogs.

Sorry to go OT....just wanted to express "my" opinion.


----------



## Jax08

lovethebreed - I got your point. But if what you are saying were true, that you are bashing Carmen privately with a group of people, then you wouldn't be on here telling everyone that you are bashing her privately. Maybe you missed your own point.


----------



## Jax08

Robin - can I just say I love your posts. They are always well thought out, level headed and informative. I learn so much from you.


----------



## robinhuerta

Who me?


----------



## Jax08

yeah..but your secret is safe with me! :rofl:


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

this thread is the energizer bunny, keeps going and going and going.


----------



## Mrs.K

lovethebreed said:


> _Mrs K ' So good job in getting it off topic with your personal vendetta. '_
> 
> Your welcome Mrs K. And good job to you for 'making the offline chat session'
> 
> Jax08, actually there are two folks discussed on the personal email chat (no names but he is the know it all of dogfood guy), well it was two. I just received a couple this morning as Mrs K has made the infamous chat. lol
> 
> Quite clear on who you are speaking too. And you will be delighted to know we do do this offline! (I believe I mentioned it above but perhaps you missed that point).



:rofl::rofl::rofl:

And now? You think I care?


----------



## Mrs.K

Agreed. :thumbup:
There are good and bad breeders on both sides. Good and Bad dogs on both sides. 




robinhuerta said:


> Mrs K.......when breeders breed for *any one quality*...they are ruining "that" breed.
> Breeds consist of "multiple" qualities......not just a single one.
> As for the showline breeders have done an incredible amount of damage to this breed.....this is an "umbrella statement".....and has become quite old & expired.
> The Martins had a HUGE part in the separation of SL vs WL....taking the SL dogs & breeders on a roller coaster ride of problems. BUT...so has the way of the WL.
> Many breeders of BOTH, are diligent in their breeding's and produce sound, healthy, stable animals. Because person(s) do not fancy a particular "look"....warrants no justification on how that animal can and cannot perform or work.
> Breeders of "today" can only do their best for the future....no breeder can change "yesterday".......just as no one can be blamed for the path of their ancestors...it matters what is being done "today & tomorrow".
> *Dictatorship* is completely different than "educating others, giving unbiased opinions & learned lessons".....
> *Dictatorship* creates "lemmings" and cult mentality......the *true* demise of breeding's and good dogs.
> 
> Sorry to go OT....just wanted to express "my" opinion.


----------



## Jax08

GSDAlphaMom said:


> this thread is the energizer bunny, keeps going and going and going.


Does anyone even know what it's about anymore?


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Robin, Jax is right you always post positive information for all the lines, don't take 'line' sides are truly are a breath of fresh air.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Does anyone even know what it's about anymore?


yeah, a 3000 Dollar puppy. 

And I've said my opinion about that too. I wouldn't buy a pup for 3000 Dollar that I have not even seen. And if a breeder says no to sending a video, that is a huge red flag and I'd run as far as I could away from that breeder, no matter what kind of kennel name it has.


----------



## robinhuerta

I read it to be originally about paying $3000 for a 4mo old puppy....period.
Somehow it became about price justification between WL & SL, then SL vs WL... etc...etc......which it should never have become.


----------



## lovethebreed

Actually I know you do. Someone on the 'discussion' _knows_ you.  

You just got bonus points though with your good/bad on both sides statement though! 

I have to admit this has gone a bit overboard on my part on here. I'll keep it on the private discussion.


----------



## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> I read it to be originally about paying $3000 for a 4mo old puppy....period.
> Somehow it became about price justification between WL & SL, then SL vs WL... etc...etc......which it should never have become.



Yep. OP was talking about justifying that much money for a pup though. 

I don't think it's justified for a four month old pup. Neither working nor showline. Not for a four month old.


----------



## Mrs.K

You know, I learned not to give a fig about what people say on the internet, anymore. 




lovethebreed said:


> Actually I know you do. Someone on the 'discussion' _knows_ you.
> 
> You just got bonus points though with your good/bad on both sides statement though!
> 
> I have to admit this has gone a bit overboard on my part on here. I'll keep it on the private discussion.


----------



## Jax08

What if the 4 month old has started training? Isn't that time worth something? Is this puppy a pick for the breeder? I know one breeder on here, because I stalk their website , that the price will go up (not to $3000 but still increases) as the puppy ages because they are training the puppy. I think that is worth something.


----------



## lovethebreed

Mrs.K said:


> You know, I learned not to care about what people say on the internet, anymore.


 
Your reactions says otherwise. Re read my statement. I never said I know you, I said someone on the offline discussion knows you.


----------



## Mrs.K

No, I just don't think it's justified. 3000 Dollars is something I'd pay for an OFA'ed raw dog that hasn't had much training but not for a four month old puppy where I don't even know if or how the dog is going to turn out. 

I could probably import a titled Malinois for that kind of money. 



Jax08 said:


> What if the 4 month old has started training? Isn't that time worth something? Is this puppy a pick for the breeder? I know one breeder on here, because I stalk their website , that the price will go up (not to $3000 but still increases) as the puppy ages because they are training the puppy. I think that is worth something.


----------



## NancyJ

Mrs.K said:


> I could probably import a titled Malinois for that kind of money.


Honestly probably not anymore

One of the police we train with wound up paying $5500 for a green malinois with no particular guarantees. Demand causes prices to go up.

Mike Logan (Loganhaus) is charging DOD something like $8000 for fearless dogs that will retrieve metal (go figure maybe I could get rid of Cyra who dismanteled my aluminum gutters only to parade them around the yard)

Of course the military specs may not actually be in line with what many others think a good working GSD should be.....

I honestly think that post 9-11 has created a huge market for adults capable of work but then that leaves a LOT of 2nd tier puppies behind and I imagine, if anything, their price could be driven down, not up. Of course many breeders are not in the business of growing out dogs for selling as young adults (something I found with some of the breeding I was looking for)

I do agree $3000 is a lot (TOO MUCH, *IMO*) for a puppy unless it is from some super-special breeding. [like frozen semen from a great dog] I have asked for videos before for working prospects and walked when they were not produced because I am not going to drive or get on a plane without a first pass.

But that was to see an older dog - how it moves, hunt drive, slick floors, etc and realizing you still can condiiton a dog to be pretty on a video - so it is really a first cut. But for a 16 week puppy, what, actually, are you looking for in a video. You need to meet the puppy or go on faith?

--------------------

I think the thread has run its course in many ways. The OP thought something seemed off, flagged it and a lot of folks said they would not pay that much for a puppy and many other helpful things.

And then got to see the worst side of breed bashing. [count it as a free bonus feature I guess - anybody else old enough to remember when they ran cartoons instead of trailers before the movie?]


----------



## BlackGSD

robinhuerta said:


> Well......I don't own a video camera.....perhaps she/he doesn't either?
> If someone needed a video from me.....I would have to hire a friend to come out and take one for me.
> *Shoot.....I just learned how to post pics here! LOL!*


I don''t have a "video camera" either. But these days most cell phones and digital cameras also take videos.


----------



## Jax08

Jax08 said:


> What if the 4 month old has started training? Isn't that time worth something? Is this puppy a pick for the breeder? I know one breeder on here, because I stalk their website , that the price will go up (not to $3000 but still increases) as the puppy ages because they are training the puppy. I think that is worth something.


Before this thread completely runs it's course, I really would like an answer to this. I think the training is worth something. Just because the puppy is 16 weeks instead of 8 weeks, doesn't mean it's worth less money. I would think that any training/socialization done would make it worth more money. I guess I don't have a problem paying for a person time and knowledge if this were the case.


----------



## BlackGSD

Jax, IF that were the case it might be one thing. But in the case of the pup the OP is asking about, it is NOT. This was NOT the breeders pick, it sounds more liked the pup was the "leftovers" that has NOT been being trained nor taken out and socialized. But rather has just been hanging out in a kennel most of the time.


----------



## Jonro

I'd like to respond to msvette2u post from 9-15 @10:24 am.( sorry but computers and me??) by relating to you a true story. A woman had a litter of pups from dogs that she had bought already titled and with great performance accomplishments. The female many times high in trial SchH III, the male was in TOP FIVE in WUSV World Championships. The pedigrees complimented each other beautifully. This should have been a tremendous litter of pups. When they were very young, three weeks, a world renown SchH Trainer from Germany (the trainer of the female) came to see this litter of pups with great expectations and intentions of choosing pup for himself. When he came back outside, and I asked him how they were, he shook his head, " they scattered like rats!" he said. These puppies were never handled as the owner was afraid of the mother dog because of her innate protective instincts. The entire litter of nine pups were left to nurse on that poor bitch until they were twelve weeks old! They even caused this great female to loose a breast. The owner's explanation for keeping the pups with the mom for that long was that the mother dog would know when it's time to wean them and that she (the mother dog ) is training the pups! Talk about acting like feral dogs! Needless to say, by the time these guys were ten to twelve months old ( the three she had not yet "gotten rid of" ) ,they were dangerous fear bitters. So there you go. This was truly a real life study in the results of the lack of human contact on out most treasured companion.


----------



## Jax08

Thank you, Tracy. Are we sure that this is the case? I haven't read through every post because there was to much nonsense in between. If indeed this puppy has not been training and socializing then that is just sad as this is such an important age.

My question was more hypothetical than related to this thread anyways because this thread is so very off course.


----------



## msvette2u

This is great information to have and some day I'll post our own personal situation with regards to this, but not right now. 

But I will say that we rescued from a few hoarders now that had acquired multiple dogs and those dogs subsequently bred, and the people never found homes for any of them, until they had dozens of dogs and puppies all over the property, multiple ages and interbreeding. It was our experience that dogs over about 6mos. of age were unsalvageable and in fact, it was recommended by a very high profile rescue/rehab/sanctuary to not try with them, as it caused more distress to try to force socialization on them. They were euthanize due to complete inability to place them.
Under 6mos. they were somewhat salvageable but only to the extent their owners were able to accept their dog would never be able to "normally" interact with other humans in their environment and would always have issues with shyness and possibly fear biting type behaviors. They left with plenty of instructions for building bonds on what little existed before adoption. 
The ones approaching 4mos. and under had fairly good prognosis but it was intensive to work with them. I don't feel capable to do it again, and we did clean up three or four different hoarding properties. It's something I won't do again unless the dogs have been interacted with at least minimally (and not allowed to just "grow up") because it's so stressful on all involved and especially the dogs.

**I don't know if that's the case with this situation but it's something to be aware of and run away from if so, because the prognosis is just so poor - in our situations as well, we're talking primarily mixed breed dogs under 20lbs. and usually under 30lbs., much different than litters who grow up to be at least 70lbs. of unmanageable fear and potential aggression. 



Jonro said:


> I'd like to respond to msvette2u post from 9-15 @10:24 am.( sorry but computers and me??) by relating to you a true story. A woman had a litter of pups from dogs that she had bought already titled and with great performance accomplishments. The female many times high in trial SchH III, the male was in TOP FIVE in WUSV World Championships. The pedigrees complimented each other beautifully. This should have been a tremendous litter of pups. When they were very young, three weeks, a world renown SchH Trainer from Germany (the trainer of the female) came to see this litter of pups with great expectations and intentions of choosing pup for himself. When he came back outside, and I asked him how they were, he shook his head, " they scattered like rats!" he said. These puppies were never handled as the owner was afraid of the mother dog because of her innate protective instincts. The entire litter of nine pups were left to nurse on that poor bitch until they were twelve weeks old! They even caused this great female to loose a breast. The owner's explanation for keeping the pups with the mom for that long was that the mother dog would know when it's time to wean them and that she (the mother dog ) is training the pups! Talk about acting like feral dogs! Needless to say, by the time these guys were ten to twelve months old ( the three she had not yet "gotten rid of" ) ,they were dangerous fear bitters. So there you go. This was truly a real life study in the results of the lack of human contact on out most treasured companion.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

is it time for a GROUP HUG YET?


----------



## Jack's Dad

JakodaCD OA said:


> is it time for a GROUP HUG YET?


You just gotta love these Diane. They are actually threads designed to see if the moderators are awake.


----------



## CassandGunnar

Brownies anyone? Jessie, where are you?


----------



## Mrs.K

I've got Crumbled Apple Pie. Anyone?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

andy, I'm awake, but it's starting to put me to sleep)

Cass, nothing against brownies but I gotta say that apple pie sounds good


----------



## CassandGunnar

Or, you could have both, just sayin'


----------



## Jonro

Jack's Dad said:


> You just gotta love these Diane. They are actually threads designed to see if the moderators are awake.


Oops. Sorry. I didn't realize, but should have, that this forum is the Internet equivalent to the CB radio twenty years ago. So I'll butt out and let you guys have it back for yourselves. Have fun.


----------



## Castlemaid

You can hang around and keep playing, Jonro, wasn't aimed at you. It is just the on-going debate here seems to just spin around in circles . . . loved your post, very interesting!


----------



## Jonro

Castlemaid said:


> You can hang around and keep playing, Jonro, wasn't aimed at you. It is just the on-going debate here seems to just spin around in circles . . . loved your post, very interesting!


Thanks. It's just that seeing is believing.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

agree with Lucia,,wasn't aimed at you))


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jonro said:


> Thanks. It's just that seeing is believing.


Absolutely nothing to do with you. Your post was great. Sometimes threads start to disintegrate and suddenly someone like you slips in something that actually makes sense and it gets lost. Sorry.


----------



## KZoppa

i just couldnt get through this thread to save my life. wow. thats about all i have. a stunned wow. definitely one of those "are the mods awake" kinda deals.


----------



## DharmasMom

Good Grief!! That is all I have to say!! Oh and Mrs K, could you pass some of that apple pie, please? I am having a bit of a sweet tooth right now and that sounds pretty darn tasty!


----------



## NancyJ

I think the brownies are much more in order; maybe a recipe from the 70s


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Nancy LMBO


----------



## KZoppa

what about cheesecake?


----------



## Emoore

My birthday is Wednesday. Cake and ice cream for everyone!


----------



## KZoppa

Emoore said:


> My birthday is Wednesday. Cake and ice cream for everyone!


 
yay!!!! 

happy early birthday!!!


----------



## Jack's Dad

Emoore said:


> My birthday is Wednesday. Cake and ice cream for everyone!


Emoore:

You obviously don't remember the 70's. Bring on the brownies.


----------



## Emoore

Jack's Dad said:


> Emoore:
> 
> You obviously don't remember the 70's. Bring on the brownies.


I do not remember the 70's.  I was born in '81. But the one who always brings the brownies is a good decade younger than I am.


----------



## CarrieJ

Jeez, I almost missed the brownies, cake, and ice-cream. Oh, and the group hug!

I really try to read through all the posts when I come late; but this one just made my eyes glaze over but here's my one cent.

Personally for my lifestyle, 3K is more than I'd spend on a pup. Especially sight unseen or shipped. Maybe if I understood bloodlines and was currently active in SAR or ScH but I'm not.
Oh sure, at one point I had the greatest intentions to do certain "activities" with my dog; but bottom line I'm a hobbyist that loves the GSD. Hence, not a breeder. Also, life seems to get in the way. I must work weekends an holidays and that's usually when said events are held.

So, as I sit here watching my dog recover from her 11 th (yes, eleventh) seizure in 48 hours and wait for my appointment at my vet. I would (to quote Selzer) pay a corvette made out of gold for a healthy animal even if it was a chevette. (but we all know chevettes suck....so maybe a honda or ford focus)


----------



## Mrs.K

DharmasMom said:


> Good Grief!! That is all I have to say!! Oh and Mrs K, could you pass some of that apple pie, please? I am having a bit of a sweet tooth right now and that sounds pretty darn tasty!


Sure, do you want some vanilla ice cream and hot cider with it?


----------



## DharmasMom

jocoyn said:


> I think the brownies are much more in order; maybe a recipe from the 70s


 Those recipes are still very much around today. 




Mrs.K said:


> Sure, do you want some vanilla ice cream and hot cider with it?


Yum!!! I'll be right over!!


----------



## NancyJ

DharmasMom said:


> Those recipes are still very much around today.


Last time I made those brownies the secret ingredient was $30 an ounce LOL.

Now I guess it.....would...be......like a $3000 puppy!


----------



## Jack's Dad

Well they need help over on the homeopathy thread. Maybe brownies would calm them down.


----------



## Emoore

I'm staying out of that. Zeel helps Rocky's arthritis. They tell me it's homeopathic medication, but I don't care. I'd feed him dollar bills if it would make him feel better.


----------



## carmspack

Believe me the real 'bashing' on said person goes on ALOT in personal emails (and with numerous members). It is not put on this forum.[/QUOTE]


Never not ever , never, never. Everything I do is transparent. I don't do personal emails with numerous members unless I am approached and that is always to be helpful with an issue. This is not my way. I have no interest in this. 
Transparent and personal means that you have my name , my kennel, you know who I am , where I live, who I have contact with. 
Many of people in this current thread go by a Forum name. No real name, no location, no information . 

You know exactly where I come from.

Those that know me from other site (euro) know that I have said many a time that the breed is splitting into three groups . Show, sport and working.
Show you know. Sport is creating a group that is flashy and reactive , prey based, losing the over all balance going to an extreme . Working hopefully maintains the utility and the full breadth of potentials , not specialized niches.

Everything can be found in the genetic heritage of the breed , right from the start.

Jocoyn if you were referring to no videos of the "pups" , number one there is a video of one or two of them doing a free search at 4 months of age and interacting with family members. Right on youtubey for all to see. 
These have a heavy ddr base and are slow to mature . No formal training , only behaviour shaping using natural interest in searching , which is strong. They don't give up on a search. 
I invited you to send any one as an agent on your behalf to test the dogs in any way , any place . You could have chosen anyone who you trusted to act as your set of eyes and to report to you.
After getting permission to share his phone nubmer I provided contact for an Officer with a littermate who is more advanced and doing very well in narcotics. 
You spoke to him and he gave an account of the litter as he tested each and every one of them on three or four occasions. 
A head trainer for a large dept , (just retired) very familiar with my dogs was asked whether he would evaluate the dogs and he said he would be happy to.
At this point they have been to fire halls, in town, box stores etc. Comfortable and able to work in focus where ever , but there is nothing put together in a formal manner yet.
These two would NOT be ready for formal training -- they are immature . Personally I think closer to 18 months judging on my past experience with some ddr dogs. Can't rush it , won't rush it.
I don't have a video . I had to get Linda to come over and take pictures . 
Not to worry they will be educated and readied as they indicate they should be .

I do like the pedigree you sent me . I do support Julia Priests lines . I think the pup stands a very good chance to be a really good working dog.
best of luck.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## CarrieJ

> Those that know me from other site (euro) know that *I have said many a time that the breed is splitting into three groups . Show, sport and working.
> *Show you know. *Sport is creating a group that is flashy and reactive , prey based, losing the over all balance going to an extreme* . Working hopefully maintains the utility and the full breadth of potentials , not specialized niches.


Carmspack, that's really interesting. The "Sport" group does that come from a combination of WL/SL? 
I must have missed the times before when you've talked about that. Still interesting all the same.


----------



## Mrs.K

CarrieJ said:


> Carmspack, that's really interesting. The "Sport" group does that come from a combination of WL/SL?
> I must have missed the times before when you've talked about that. Still interesting all the same.


Not really. It's working line dogs that are bred towards prey and are such prey monsters that it literally overrides the rest of the drive just because they want flashy dogs. Those dogs were already in creation when dogs like Gildo were still alive. Even my father says that those dogs are the "safer" dogs when it comes up to competing because dogs like Gildo are to hard to handle for the general public and just not the pointcatchers. 

Indra is a dog out of sporting lines. She is a prey monster but luckily she's got everything it takes to work as well. 

Judge could be one of those flashy working dogs, he's got even more preydrive than Indra. Fast, flashy, prey-driven. The civil drive would have to be tickled out. I'm pretty sure both have them but I leave it where it is since we are doing SAR. Luckily he's got tons of Hunt Drive as well and with his drive he could be one heck of a cadaver dog. 

The working dogs themselves have a sound balance between all the drives. The sport dogs are prey, prey, and more prey because they want to be able to compete with the Mal, which is just not possible. When you look at the FCI Championships, it's the Mal that is leading and the Shepherd can't keep up. Not because the Shepherd isn't good enough but mainly because of the way German Shepherd People train their dogs. At least that is what is said in every debate. However, it's a fact that the Mal is lighter, faster and flashier and the GSD is a little heavier and just not as fast and flashy but thats because it's a GSD and turning him into a mal-like creature doesn't make him a Mal or any better. 

Sometimes, the facial expressions out of these kind of dogs remember more about a Mal than about a German Shepherd.


----------



## Hillary_Plog

robinhuerta said:


> Mrs K.......when breeders breed for *any one quality*...they are ruining "that" breed.
> Breeds consist of "multiple" qualities......not just a single one.
> As for the showline breeders have done an incredible amount of damage to this breed.....this is an "umbrella statement".....and has become quite old & expired.
> The Martins had a HUGE part in the separation of SL vs WL....taking the SL dogs & breeders on a roller coaster ride of problems. BUT...so has the way of the WL.
> Many breeders of BOTH, are diligent in their breeding's and produce sound, healthy, stable animals. Because person(s) do not fancy a particular "look"....warrants no justification on how that animal can and cannot perform or work.
> Breeders of "today" can only do their best for the future....no breeder can change "yesterday".......just as no one can be blamed for the path of their ancestors...it matters what is being done "today & tomorrow".
> *Dictatorship* is completely different than "educating others, giving unbiased opinions & learned lessons".....
> *Dictatorship* creates "lemmings" and cult mentality......the *true* demise of breeding's and good dogs.
> 
> Sorry to go OT....just wanted to express "my" opinion.


*Halle-freaking-lujah*. :happyboogie: This is not only a hallmark statement, but should be a "wake up" to any and all that have taken a one-sided, "show line" demise approach to their theories and considerations of the breed. 

As Robin states, there have been atrocities to happen to this breed from any and ALL lines, no matter what anyone's personal aesthetic preference is. And, just as any working line breeder or enthusiast can pick apart the "failings" in the German show line pedigrees...just as many could pick apart the "failings" in the working and American pedigrees. 

Moving forward and having discussions about what is happening that is *GOOD* and what we *ARE ALL* doing to help *IMPROVE*, would be much, much, much more productive and *CIVILIZED*...no matter what or who you would spend your 3 grand on.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Interesting reading here. 

I'm new to the specifics of the GSD world...but noted some comparisons to horses earlier in this thread. (Rode an Impressive granddaughter for awhile...for the QH folks)..... 

Anyhoo, wrt the lines sport, working and show. As in the horse world since the industrial revolution animals have become _less_ for work and more for companionship and other past times. It used to be, horse or dog, it was about the animal earning it's keep. For most, pre-industrial revolution keeping an animal as a 'pet' was really a luxury. The wealthy business man may have the flashy high stepper and his wife the toy spaniel but that was the exception.

Now that we, many more of us, have this luxury it has created demand for less generally utilitarian animals and more specialization, companion, working and sport animals.

I also see an apt comparison to the sport of Dressage vs 3 Day Eventing. Usually, not always, a horse (usually a warmblood) that is a top level competitor in Dressage wouldn't hold up on a cross country course even though both sports evolved from far more utilitarian roots (war and hunting). My Grandfather's horses were ridden to the jumping competitions on the weekend and pulled the farm wagons during the week. But that was a long time ago..... now his horses probably wouldn't be able to compete successfully against a top show jumper, because of specialization in the breeding.

The point I'm making is I don't see this trend changing given that most of don't really USE our animals to work anymore. IMO it's only problematic when the breeding leads to unhealthy and consequently poor quality of life for the animals (which certainly does happen from shih tzus to GSDs, Arabians to QHs they all have (had) their problems)

O.K. that was my .02 

btw: I hope prices, in general, don't keep going up on quality GSDs from good breeders, I'm beginning to think I won't be able to afford to have another in the future!  ....and while I have a WGSL now I sure would like to have a WL dog in the future....just because I love 'em all!


----------



## CarrieJ

Thanks, Mrs. K.
So that all "prey prey prey" was the problem another member was having regarding training a search dog and it would run off after critters.
I think that was the term being used; "crittering"
It'd be pretty frightening as a handler to think that you found a victim but found a bear instead.
So I agree there is now way a GSD could compare to a Mal in that kind of drive. Why wouldn't working folks (not people like me who have a WL as a pet) but actually ScH, Law Enforcement, or SAR folks want a Sport type over a balanced Working type.

Or better yet, what are the people creating this hoping to achieve? I think that the well rounded balance that was the original thought to the breed makes more sense.
JMHO.


----------



## onyx'girl

I'd much rather have a balanced dog than one as Mrs K describes....GSD's are not Mal's and we should be thankful for that!!
Even if I lose points because my dog isn't flashy in obedience like a Mal it would be worth it to live with a dog that isn't over the top prey driven. I like a thinking dog.

Luckily the trainer I work with knows how to balance the prey/defense drive(and he has both GSD and Mal's) and we have a few of the "sport dogs" training with us ~ he knows how to tap and cap the different drives.


----------



## Mrs.K

CarrieJ said:


> Thanks, Mrs. K.
> So that all "prey prey prey" was the problem another member was having regarding training a search dog and it would run off after critters.
> I think that was the term being used; "crittering"
> It'd be pretty frightening as a handler to think that you found a victim but found a bear instead.
> So I agree there is now way a GSD could compare to a Mal in that kind of drive. Why wouldn't working folks (not people like me who have a WL as a pet) but actually ScH, Law Enforcement, or SAR folks want a Sport type over a balanced Working type.
> 
> Or better yet, what are the people creating this hoping to achieve? I think that the well rounded balance that was the original thought to the breed makes more sense.
> JMHO.


Prey is not equal Prey. The dog can be prey prey prey, yet not going after critters. It's prey drive to but not the same prey I was talking about. 

Remember the topic "locked in prey" opened by Cliffson? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/152978-locked-prey.html


----------



## carmspack

That is my whole point , well rounded and balanced . This is why I keep mentioning the long list of duties the dog had , from herder - driver , protector, messenger, ambulance , search - live - injured - deceased, ...... 
But a concerted effort has to be made to maintain it. Each and every generation . 
It seems as if the efforts of working breeders are devalued even by the SV which has a large majority of show line interest and activity. 
This breed has always had diverging interests from the beginning . 
Everyone seems to know this von Stephanitz quote "The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs: and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs. "

We've seen the first part of the quote used on many a web site banner , brochure etc.


but then he continues 

"Breeding by shepherds, which in the heyday of German sheepbreeding some 60-100 years ago was a pure utility breeding, but in certain stocks led to considerable pedigree-breeding , must be an example to us amateurs , for it achieved on a sound basis what we need and wish for : namely , A STOCK OF HARD, KEEN, AND EFFICIENT WORKING DOGS."

Honestly is this what we have now ??

von Stephanitz again 
"In contradistinction to utility and working breeding, there is sporting breeding, which indeed procures a temporary advance, but which, however is alway succeeded by deterioration, -- I refer to the warning example of the Scottish shepherd dogs and some other races, --- for it is not done for the sake of the dog, nor does it tend to make him more useful, but is done only for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser. That word "Sport" always means competition for the highest , it is true , but this competition reaches its high -water mark in Exhibitions, which, just because the demand no real capabilities (as for example in the breeding of race- horses) lead people only too easily astray to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty , instead of on the substance really matters ......

von Stephanitz prior to 1925 .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Debbieg

Hillary_Plog said:


> *Halle-freaking-lujah*. :happyboogie: This is not only a hallmark statement, but should be a "wake up" to any and all that have taken a one-sided, "show line" demise approach to their theories and considerations of the breed.
> 
> As Robin states, there have been atrocities to happen to this breed from any and ALL lines, no matter what anyone's personal aesthetic preference is. And, just as any working line breeder or enthusiast can pick apart the "failings" in the German show line pedigrees...just as many could pick apart the "failings" in the working and American pedigrees.
> 
> Moving forward and having discussions about what is happening that is *GOOD* and what we *ARE ALL* doing to help *IMPROVE*, would be much, much, much more productive and *CIVILIZED*...no matter what or who you would spend your 3 grand on.


Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I got my first GSD as a child in 1964 when there was no split, just one GSD. He could work , was pretty, and lived a healthy long life. Could we get back to this if knowledgeable breeders of good WL and SL bred them together with lines that do not go back to the problem dogs? Wouldn't this, if done responsibly open up the bottleneck?


----------



## Emoore

Debbieg said:


> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I got my first GSD as a child in 1964 when there was no split, just one GSD. He could work , was pretty, and lived a healthy long life. Could we get back to this if knowledgeable breeders of good WL and SL bred them together with lines that do not go back to the problem dogs? Wouldn't this, if done responsibly open up the bottleneck?


Also, would people who like the big flashy black and red dogs still get them? How about the dark and black sables? Or the folks who like the sport-oriented "Mals-in-in-shep-clothing?"


----------



## CarrieJ

I totally get confused by all the talk of different drives.
I must go search out old threads.
I've heard (In IRL as well), prey drive, hunt drive, ball drive, play drive, and they confuse me.
I can say that my dog has a high ball and play drive, which is great in motivating her. It's my currency so to speak.

If I'm gisting correctly the different drives are used for different tasks. A well balanced working dog has a combination of different drives that are balanced or well rounded?
Where as a "sport" dog the breeding is focused on possibly just one drive...?


----------



## onyx'girl

A sport dog should also be balanced. Hunt, prey, food and defense...
Because most 'sport'dogs have to do three phases of 'work', the hunt/food is great for tracking, prey is good for obedience and protection, then the defense is tapped to bring the prey into balance. 
But a dog should be biddable to their handler and willing to work with what is asked, that is where balance is important ~ genetics. 
An independent thinker, yet looking to the handler for instruction....not too dependent on either/that is a balance that should be within the GSD. 
Maturity will help the balancing act, you don't want to put an immature dog into defense too soon, so some work them in prey, then it is too much prey and hard to balance it out, especially if the dog is genetically highly prey driven .


----------



## carmspack

in response to DebbieG . well there are "you can't win" situations.
I look to a dog and I see the potential . Does not matter where or what it comes from , whether Czech, DDR, west German "work" .
Case in point Sumo , Journey Carmspack Sumo - German Shepherd Dog.
Here we have it all . Czech represented by Xero Pohranicni Straze , and Colin Malemi (Art Lipin) . DDR by Grando Mecklenburger Buffel , and Ulf Iris , Klockow's Lex both of those going back to west German Bernd Lierberg. DDR Addi Tonteichen, Monchi Malatesta (Lewis) . German show through Bazita Olympus who brings in select GSL, but they are nicely balanced still at this point with healthy herding bringing in Marko Cellerland, Nimi Kirschental .
There are some good Mutz Pelztierfarm, and Dingo Gero, and Ajax Dexel . German working including Dutch and Belgian bred Blenda Zunderland whose brother was a top KNPV -met lof and later police dog --, PAM Vyck Antverpa, Dix Maineiche, Tarbes Knufken, Cliff Geiersnest, Anka Santa Maria.
Kilo himself is a mix of DDR and German working - Eros Busecker Schloss , Racker Itztal .
There's more . There is American show. My beginning was with a female who I chose because her dam was from Mary Southcot's Cara Mia kennels , an exceptional dog , memorable to this day. Southcot was an obedience judge and her dogs , (1960' 70's ) were well known for their strong confident temperament, many of them appearing in the earliest of schutzhund activity and thriving. My first breeding was to Antar's Apace Joe , who was Am Can CDX TDX as was his father , and he later sired a litter of 11 pups all of them getting a TD title at one year of age , first time out . 
I deliberately select for "genetic obedience" , natural tracking skills, strong hunt drive, and a conservation of old herding lines . I want confident dogs with med high to high thresholds . I don't want reactive dogs that see threat to quickly or when non is present.

So you do this , and then someone puts it out there in another forum type venue , paraphrasing that "she" is out there all over the place and that it is a alphabet soup of a breeding program -- not even this particular one that I gave as an example. That is what I mean. You can not win. 
I don't care about "pure" ddr , pure show, pure working, pure czech. Show me the logic of the pedigree. Show me the strength . 
My approach is the same as what is applied to me every time I present a dog for service . The papers are never looked at . The dog is evaluated, critically, for what it has to offer - end of story. It can or it can not. No excuses. 
I don't go for colour . 
Taking it from another angle. Linda Shaw had her "Timmy" who was a son of Kilo's sister Katiana , and her American bred (ckc) male Cory who came from Wiesental kennels lines - Falco. Timmy participated in french ring and was a natural . When the club folded due to a health crisis of the training director , the dog went on to schutzhund at an advanced age . He easily got his SchH 3 . Timmy and his brother are often used as structural ideal in illustration. Later on Linda and I used Timmy on Carmspack Kohl and that produced two black males . You'll be seeing Kato on the new web site that Linda is putting up.

I think the 60's and early 70's were a golden period in the breed.

After that everything became so compartmentalized and overdone . Show with Canto. Working with Sagus and Greif .. American with Lance of Fran Jo.

some things to think about 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Debbieg

That is a great post Carmen. I think the only hope is for to keep trying to educate people. I work with people more than dogs and it seems to be human nature to want extremes. People destroy health to be extremely thin or athletes take drugs to enhance performance. Human nature easily falls into the " no one can be too rich or too thin, keep up and beat the neighbors mentality,"

Many who did not have one of those great GSD before the split, do not see the value in a jack of all trades, master of none. They see anything less than extreme, whether in looks, sport, protections and being some how mediocre. Marketing plays on that desire for extreme . Too many people know longer need to truly work their dogs, but do have the time and money to compete and show off their dog and extremes are rewarded. Hopefully with education and dedication, support of breeders who look at just the dog, the breed will trickle back to what it once was, like grass growing through a crack in the cement headedness of people's egos.

There are breeders out there that still look at the dog and breed as you, but many are not on forums. I hope you Anne, Cliff and others will keep educating people. The things I have learned from all you will be invaluable as I choose my next pup.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. Human nature, capitalism and free market principles at play.

Sounds like a marketing problem ......




Emoore said:


> Also, would people who like the big flashy black and red dogs still get them? How about the dark and black sables? Or the folks who like the sport-oriented "Mals-in-in-shep-clothing?"


----------



## cwmia

Here's another thought on the "no video". Many times videos don't do the pup justice, especially if they are dark in colour. You just see a black, busy thing running around...what is the point of wasting time to film that? Many breeders are too busy working/cleaning/feeding etc. that the video is a waste of valuable time they don't have. I personally know breeders that will not sell a pup at all if the buyer will not make the effort to come see the pup. As for the price of $3000.00, it could be worth every penny and more but you'll never know unless you see the pup "up close and personal" or have someone knowledgeable that you trust do so for you. Just my two cents.
Catherine


----------



## wildo

Debbieg said:


> Too many people know longer need to truly work their dogs, but do have the time and money to compete and show off their dog and extremes are rewarded.


I see a lot of truth in this statement. And though I agree the GSD _should_ be (and _was_) a jack of all trades, master of none, isn't there weight to the argument that people should be able to get dogs that compliment the thing they want the dog for, e.g., specific sports?

Just curious on this one...


----------



## Mrs.K

wildo said:


> I see a lot of truth in this statement. And though I agree the GSD _should_ be (and _was_) a jack of all trades, master of none, isn't there weight to the argument that people should be able to get dogs that compliment the thing they want the dog for, e.g., specific sports?
> 
> Just curious on this one...


Yep, that is what I want in my dogs as well. No matter what you do, the GSD should be capable of doing it. From Schutzhund, to FH, SAR, French Ring, Agility, Dog Dancing or Flyball, Service Dog, Police Work, Herding...


----------



## NancyJ

Should an individual DOG be able to do it all or should a population of GSDs have dogs capable of doing it all? I recall reading an interview with Manfred Heye that said maybe ONE dog from a litter could make a decent herding dog.....I always thought it was the latter -- that, within the breed, there would be canddiates capable of doing a wide range of activities. ............


----------



## Samba

I don't think one dog is going to be able to do it all necessarily. But, does it take separate lines to achieve dogs better suited to this or that? Could they not be found among the varieties of dogs produced in litters or a particular kennel?


----------



## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> Should an individual DOG be able to do it all or should a population of GSDs have dogs capable of doing it all? I recall reading an interview with Manfred Heye that said maybe ONE dog from a litter could make a decent herding dog.....I always thought it was the latter -- that, within the breed, there would be canddiates capable of doing a wide range of activities. ............


Agreed. 

Just look at all the dogs on this forum that have so many different titles that you can't count them anymore. If that is not versatility within a breed and dogs I don't know what is. 

If you have a dog that can do Schutzhund, Flyball, Obedience, FH, has the RH title an Agility title, the Therapy Dog on top of it, went Dock Diving and you go out and got the Herding Instinct Title...I'd say you have a Jack of all Trades. You are out there doing it all and your dog is doing it with you.


----------



## robinhuerta

I think the breed (as a whole/from all lines) *should* be capable of multiple venues and responsibilities....but I also believe that you will find individual puppies within a litter, who will exhibit *special* traits/drives.. that can/will make them exceptional candidates for certain activities/jobs.
Puppies have individual characteristics, some will exhibit stronger traits to certain stimuli than others....
Having/owning/breeding puppies/dogs capable of "multiple venues" should be the goal of every breeder. JMO


----------



## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> I think the breed (as a whole/from all lines) *should* be capable of multiple venues and responsibilities....but I also believe that you will find individual puppies within a litter, who will exhibit *special* traits/drives.. that can/will make them exceptional candidates for certain activities/jobs.
> Puppies have individual characteristics, some will exhibit stronger traits to certain stimuli than others....
> Having/owning/breeding puppies/dogs capable of "multiple venues" should be the goal of every breeder. JMO


I don't think anyone could say it any better.


----------



## Vandal

> I see a lot of truth in this statement. And though I agree the GSD _should_ be (and _was_) a jack of all trades, master of none, isn't there weight to the argument that people should be able to get dogs that compliment the thing they want the dog for, e.g., specific sports?


People can get whatever they want. However, I think people just don't realize that there used to be dogs that could do ALL of those things and do them very well. I am talking ONE dog, not one of each from a litter. That is another odd belief. Sure, some pups in a litter will show more apptitude for something but they should all, still be able to do the rest. People seem to have manipulated what versatile means to fit what they are breeding . They breed different types and claim that is versatility.

When I started, if you were happy with owning a GERMAN SHEPHERD and accepted that they were not a Malinois or a Golden, or any other breed, and you were lucky enough to have a well bred GSD, you could do anything with them. Now, more often, you have to have one to show, one to do SchH with, one for SAR and so on.... and then you will be criticized for having too many dogs. lol. Maybe I'll use THAT as a marketing slogan. More dog, less dog food!


----------



## Mrs.K

Honestly, I have two dogs here that can do it all. Show, Schutzhund, SAR, Agility etc. 

From seeing Justines pup, her dog can do it all too. He's intense, gorgeous, he can definitely show, do Schutzhund, French Ring, Agility, Obedience, FH and SAR, Dock Diving, Flyball. 

That being said, I do see German Shepherds out there that can't do it all. 

However, those well bred, still can do a multiple jobs and do them well. Those dogs are still out there and it is not that hard to find them. 




Vandal said:


> People can get whatever they want. However, I think people just don't realize that there used to be dogs that could do ALL of those things and do them very well. I am talking ONE dog, not one of each from a litter. That is another odd belief. Sure, some pups in a litter will show more apptitude for something but they should all, still be able to do the rest. People seem to have manipulated what versatile means to fit what they are breeding . They breed different types and claim that is versatility.
> 
> When I started, if you were happy with owning a GERMAN SHEPHERD and accepted that they were not a Malinois or a Golden, or any other breed, and you were lucky enough to have a well bred GSD, you could do anything with them. Now, more often, you have to have one to show, one to do SchH with, one for SAR and so on.... and then you will be criticized for having too many dogs. lol. Maybe I'll use THAT as a marketing slogan. More dog, less dog food!


----------



## Vandal

> However, those well bred, still can do a multiple jobs and do them well. Those dogs are still out there and it is not that hard to find them.


The expectation from the buying public was different some years back. I talk to people all the time who are looking for a dog and want to know what the heck happened. 

Nowadays, they are being encouraged to look in certain places for certain traits. Unfortunately, many times now, that is good advice when years ago, it wasn't so necessary. Just read this thread and others where people ask " what are you going to be doing with your dog?" Should that matter for a GSD? Shouldn't the biggest concern be that they are qualified to own a German Shepherd Dog?


----------



## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> The expectation from the buying public was different some years back. I talk to people all the time who are looking for a dog and want to know what the heck happened.
> 
> Nowadays, they are being encouraged to look in certain places for certain traits. Unfortunately, many times now, that is good advice when years ago, it wasn't. Just read this thread and others where people who ask " what are you going to be doing with your dog?" Should that matter for a GSD? Shouldn't the biggest concern be that they are qualified to own a German Shepherd Dog?


Very true. Actually, I did not really think about the question "What are you doing with the dog" because the GSD should be able to adapt to any kind of situation. 

But yes, that is very true, now that I think about it it shouldn't be the question "What are you going to do with the dog" and then leading the person into the right direction but "Are you sure you can handle a GSD"


----------



## carmspack

[
people should be able to get dogs that compliment the thing they want the dog for, e.g., specific sports?

Just curious on this one...[/QUOTE]


sure thing Wildo , but that should come from a selection process . All litters and lines will have some variety and pups that will have advantages one way or the other -- just like in your own family 
rare is the polymath. 
. 
The breeding program , unless it is for an inhouse use such as military high security (as an example) should not be customized . There is a standard for conformation , there is a breed specific standard for temperament. Depending on how a pedigree is built from the original "land race" stock you may have a different slant on , energetic delivery, protection, natural herd , natural drive , natural tracking. 
The different regions had different structure, lowland Wurtemburger heavier set , thicker coat , often droop eared. The northern regions had a longer limb and were springy and energetic . 

If anybody is or was offended on what I laid out previously go back and re visit (or visit) the ICE BERG breeders which Cliff provided . All the historic notes are there.

If a situation is not understood , if a diagnosis is not made how can you get to the root cause and change things for the better. 
Unfortunately since Martin and Canto the lines in German show have become like a closed stud book not bringing in anything new. 
Those that are in that game have to recognize this to make the best decisions . It can be done. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Samba

Well, sure, if you have a German Shepherd then it should be able to do any things. But, I found the particular talents may lend it to excelling at one venue more than the other. I have a dog who has obedience titles, tracking titles very good at the herding we did, dock diver with great prowess, trained in protection, loves to do agility....more dog than I have time interest and money. So, yes, they should be generally capable but may shine more in one area than another as an idividual.


----------



## Vandal

Thank you for saying that Carmen. I was going to post something similar on another thread but I just don't have time to battle the rest of what goes on when you simply try to tell the truth. There are certain traits in every line and the art of breeding is bringing them all together, as close as you can get to the standard. It should not be about one type being true to half of the standard and leaving the rest behind. Unfortunately, the judges and people who were supposed to lead the breed, used those positions for personal gain. We are all pretty used to that by now I guess and it sure isn't happening just with dogs. Signing off, I have things to get done.

Samba, that was said and I agree. Some pups will excel at one thing but still be capable of doing all of what a GSD should be able to do.


----------



## SitUbuSit

*Wondering how the puppy situation turned out*

Assuming the OP is still on here, I'm curious to hear how this turned out.

I do not think 4 months is too old. I plan to adopt my pup at about 4 months as well, with the knowledge that he will be receiving socialization and foundational training (housebreaking, crate, etc) during this critical window of development. 

Have you been able to talk to the breeder by phone? You can learn a lot about a person by phone that you can't by email. I would not rule out the breeder for not providing a video (assume you are receiving lots of pics though -- if so, feel free to share! I could use a puppy fix today), though it's a red flag if he is unwilling (since he's provided videos on other dogs before) vs unable. 

Bottom line is, if the breeder is reputable and trustworthy (with a solid puppy warranty), and you feel this is THE pup for you, then go for it. There are a few breeders on here (both SL and WL, I might add) that I would trust for a puppy, sight unseen. But those breeders are very, very rare. 

Best of luck to you, no matter what you decide. 

On a side note, I'm sorry that you were disappointed that some of the responses were off-subject. I hope that doesn't deter you from making full use of this forum -- it has been invaluable to me (a soon-to-be second-time GSD owner). Sometimes, even the off-subject responses can be very useful! The ones that aren't, well, I just skim and move on. It's the internet, after all, you can't expect everything to be on target! 




orangesss said:


> I am a first time dog owner. I plan on taking him to training/obedience classes, yes i have the time to "babbysit" him initially just to get him accustomed to the new surroundings.
> How hard would it be for me to train the older pup, would he be or become loyal to me? How hard is it for me to re-train or train out some of his habits (how many habits do you think he has already?)
> 
> Background on the pup:
> - When asked why the breeder still has older pups, he said something along the lines of recession and people not being able to afford puppies or dogs
> - he said he was planning on training the pup to be a police dog if someone wasn't going to purchase him
> - the pup is most likely living in a kennel, however he said his family is constantly around and interacts with the dogs/puppies
> 
> I'm paying quite a bit for this puppy (close to 3000) .... yes, that is alot.... i want to make sure that the price justifies the quality of the dog i will get
> 
> Should I wait till younger puppies are available? or adopt this one (keep in mind im unable to visit them)


----------



## wildo

carmspack said:


> sure thing Wildo , but that should come from a selection process . All litters and lines will have some variety and pups that will have advantages one way or the other -- just like in your own family
> rare is the polymath.


I get what you are saying, and agree, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Rather, I think I wasn't very clear in what I meant. Allow me to rephrase:

While I believe it's true a GSD _should_ be able to do anything, and do it pretty well, fact is that people (like me) don't have the time *or money* to be able to show in multiple venues. As such- I pick one (or a couple). Because I will likely never show in herding, S&R, or French ring, I don't have any particular need to get a dog that would do well in such a venue. To be able to claim that the dog _could_ do those things, I would need to actually _do_ those things in order to support my claim. Because I won't likely do those things- I won't have a way to prove that the dog could do them (and that's ok with me)... I hope you follow that little logic puzzle. 

My point is that it's good to have a dog that can do most anything- but if "most anything" will never actually happen- then I don't see the issue with _not_ being able to do "most anything;" I don't see an issue with excelling in the one or two areas that "*will* happen."

I think the statement I quoted initially said something to the affect of the market need changing, and the breed changing to fit that market need. This is the topic I was referencing. I mean, on one hand- I totally get the desire/need to maintain what the breed is. But on the other hand- if very few people actually still need "what the breed is" then is there real harm in the lines splitting to fit the new needs?

(Note- I am not arguing one way or the other. Just saying I see validity in both perspectives. I'm curious, carmspack, if you can sway me to your perspective.)


----------



## Samba

Is there an issue splitting the breed? I guess it could result in the breed characteristics being lost to a large extent?


----------



## wildo

Samba said:


> Is there an issue splitting the breed? I guess it could result in the breed characteristics being lost to a large extent?


I don't know. I was basing my current train of thought on this statement:


carmspack said:


> Those that know me from other site (euro) know that I have said many a time that the breed is splitting into three groups . Show, sport and working.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I'm usually one of the last ones to care how a thread dies but this one is so far off the OP and has been for some time. I am getting a lot out of the present conversation and would love for it to continue. It should be it's own thread IMO. If I could figure a good way to shift it I would . I really do think the topic as it is, is very informative and hope it continues. We are way past $3000 dollar and 4 month old pups.


----------



## Debbieg

wildo said:


> My point is that it's good to have a dog that can do most anything- but if "most anything" will never actually happen- then I don't see the issue with _not_ being able to do "most anything;" I don't see an issue with excelling in the one or two areas that "*will* happen."
> 
> I


 I would want a German Shepherd that is able to do everything even if I only have the time and money or interest in doing two or three things, because I feel that these are the dogs that would have the overall tempermant a GSD I want to live with in a GSD. Those that can only excel in a few areas , I think would not have a balanced temperamant.


----------



## carmspack

yes dogs can be found that can do it all -- just good old dogs that are confident, engaged and responsive .
The German Shepherd Quarterly many years ago had a two or three page spread featuring an interview with Erich Renner , and his dog , Bodo Lierberg VA1 INT Bodo vom Lierberg - German Shepherd Dog and by his description this dog would , could do it all . 
You want structure , you want old heritage herding, you want great pedigree, lots of potential then look at Perry Beilstein V Perry vom Beilstein - German Shepherd Dog
we had those kind of dogs coming out of Marko Cellerland.

I persist , one of the problems with show lines is that they do not compete in working trials , I did not say Sch H trials , I said working trials where there is a different standard and expectation, and when they did they did not fare well. Hard to evaluate the temperament then.
They , as well as "sport" / working have lost a great deal of the active aggression or fight drive. 
This is a breed that is supposed to have it .
Unless a breed is balanced and true to its breed specific characteristics then there is the unreliable, unpredictable. 
There should not be any question that your dog will protect you. That is what I mean by reliable and predictable. The dog should not be reactive perceiving non existant or low level threat , you should be able to count on the dog being level and stable.

Both factions , even American show (specialty group more so then the All-Breed show type) , both, need to address better temperament and better conformation. 

Bring it back to Perry , and Bernd / Bodo , Marko Cellerland - Kai Silberbrand -Marko Abtei-Eck 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

Jack's dad I agree, we have moved to a different level of discussion , one that can go somewhere for those interested.
Carmen


----------



## carmspack

wildo said:


> I get what you are saying, and agree, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Rather, I think I wasn't very clear in what I meant. Allow me to rephrase:
> 
> While I believe it's true a GSD _should_ be able to do anything, and do it pretty well, fact is that people (like me) don't have the time *or money* to be able to show in multiple venues. As such- I pick one (or a couple). Because I will likely never show in herding, S&R, or French ring, I don't have any particular need to get a dog that would do well in such a venue.
> 
> xxxxxxxxxx Hello Wildo . I understand completely where you are coming from. The owner, the end user , whether they need an estate / personal protection dog , a dog to enjoy club tracking and sport/obedience competition, or work with some livestock on a hobby farm , or couch cuddler -- the decision on the use and application of the dogs talents is up to them, to their needs.
> The BREEDER and the breed should consider the versatility and over all utility so that ONE dog may be able to do anything that is asked of them.
> Let me use a vehicle as an example. Let's suppose that I am a person who only drives through the encroaching subdivision to go to town to get milk and luncheon goodies . The subdivision has a posted speed limit of 50 Ks. I believe that is around 30 mph. Should I buy only a car that does 50 or 60 ks per hour if that is all I would ever need, forcing me to rent or buy another car for the highway ?
> The dog has to have it -- the user decides what is being used.
> You need that dog that can do well in all because that ensures that every little bit of the temperament profile is in place , correct , and balanced.
> 
> ------------------------
> To be able to claim that the dog _could_ do those things, I would need to actually _do_ those things in order to support my claim. Because I won't likely do those things- I won't have a way to prove that the dog could do them (and that's ok with me)... I hope you follow that little logic puzzle.
> 
> xxxxxxxxx That onus is upon the breeder who would demonstrate through litter mate results, sire and dam progeny results and so on all the way back.
> Problem is that there are few breeders that do have successive generations so there is a bit of a blind spot on full information .
> I see that American show line breeders have a greater track record for multiple generations being bred.
> Less in the German show lines .
> 
> ----------------------
> My point is that it's good to have a dog that can do most anything- but if "most anything" will never actually happen- then I don't see the issue with _not_ being able to do "most anything;" I don't see an issue with excelling in the one or two areas that "*will* happen."
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxx Once again , the dog , the genetics have to be wholesome , completely thought out. You are not ordering Starbucks coffee , double double, light , one sugar ...... . You would have thousands of breeders breeding a single or smaller range of ability and then you would have to contact them all , analyse the results and hope you got it right. What if you wanted a dear companion , safe in public, conformation that gives you pride of ownership and a trouble free long and healthy life , tolerant of you and forgiving of your mistakes - so no shut downs, or lashing out , or avoidance , would you also not want this nice dog to protect you the day some guy cut a hole in your screen to let himself in. You don't know what you need until you need it . Call it a bank account with savings for a rainy day. Forgotten about , a life saver and appreciated when that unexpected expense happens .
> If the breeder does not breed for EVERYTHING then they are doing a marginal job - then every back yard breeder would be just as good.
> Have high expectations . Put the pressure on the breeders to raise the bar .
> von Stephanitz was very clear that the GSdog be a versatile utilitarian breed.
> 
> --------------------
> 
> I think the statement I quoted initially said something to the affect of the market need changing, and the breed changing to fit that market need.
> 
> xxxxxxxxxx I feel strongly about this one. The breed is what it is . The breeder is at the helm of the direction that the breed will be heading to . Each and evey litter . If you don't like what a GSD is supposed to be then please choose another breed which serves your needs.
> The market should not dictate the essence of the breed.
> There is no law that says you have to own a GSD. Think it over carefully. Know what to expect . Choose the best . Choose the breeder that has experience or if just setting out as we all began somewhere , see that they have a good understanding , a good mentor / protege relationship. See that they have an interest in your outcome and follow up to see how your chosen animal is doing for you. feed-back .
> A GSD is not a golden retriever , it is not a malinois .
> 
> -----------
> 
> 
> This is the topic I was referencing. I mean, on one hand- I totally get the desire/need to maintain what the breed is. But on the other hand- if very few people actually still need "what the breed is" then is there real harm in the lines splitting to fit the new needs?
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxx the harm is that you are loosing temperament . Compromises are made . Other things are neglected . So what do you have , about as much consistency as a street bred mongrel. You don't know what you have.
> How many different types of test or evaluations do you have to ensure that the breeders efforts in pedigree assembly are giving you what they claim THEY have ,unless tested by and graded against a set of performance expectations.
> 
> We have examples of market driven gsd knock-offs. They are called Shiloh , King, Shepalute or whatever and several others . All of them wanting to capitalize on the GSD look , but with big softee temperament.
> 
> Let them do that. Let us keep the GSD .
> 
> --------------------
> 
> (Note- I am not arguing one way or the other. Just saying I see validity in both perspectives. I'm curious, carmspack, if you can sway me to your perspective.)


xxxxxxxxxxxx I like a vigorous exchange of ideas. I am not out to sway anyone. If it makes you think , then I have done what I have set out to do.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wildo

carmspack said:


> xxxxxxxxxxxx I like a vigorous exchange of ideas. I am not out to sway anyone. If it makes you think , then I have done what I have set out to do.


Well, regardless of your intentions- you swayed me! (As I figured you would...) Nice response- thanks for taking the time. :toasting:

[EDIT]- meant to comment- you raised some points I didn't consider, i.e., the intruder breaking in while all I "asked for" was a companion animal. Great point! I might really want a "sport" dog, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't get everything that a GSD is meant to be in the process...

Another thing is your use of "temperament." I considered temperament and drive to be unrelated, but based on your response, specifically the quote below, that must not be the case. That's an important distinction since I had it in my head that you could get a "sport" dog while still maintaining the standard GSD temperament. For me, that meant a specific drive (probably prey drive depending on the sport of choice) was heightened but the dog still remains stable, biddable, aloof to strangers, etc. I considered temperament to not be related to drive.


> xxxxxxxxxxx the harm is that you are loosing temperament . Compromises are made . Other things are neglected . So what do you have , about as much consistency as a street bred mongrel. You don't know what you have.


----------



## Vandal

I'll try to bring this back to the topic. If I were to pay three grand for a four month old pupppy, it sure SHOULD be capable of doing whatever I wanted to do. That's a lot of money for just a saddle and pointy ears. For that kind of dough, you should get the combo plate, not just one taco.


----------

