# My dog has now bitten people 3 times....



## Duncan.F

Hi All,
We have a 3 yr old neutered male GSD. He is generally very well behaved, he walks to heel well [I rarely use a lead], will come when called and sit etc. On the lead he does pull and always has to be in front on walks but will rarely leave us by more than 20 yds or so.
At home he is the gentlest fun creature, despite his size and power he never uses his teeth or shows any aggression to famly members or visitors. He is very vocal towards strangers at the door and I have little doubt that he would have a go should someone try to get in. He is very protective towards my wife and daughter, if I were to playfight with them he gets upset and jumps up [something he never does normally!] or will come between us. He doesn't attemt to bite me but just looks a bit unhappy and asks me to stop!
However on 3 occasions my dog has nipped people whilst out walking. I have no idea what triggers these situations. He just seems to be unhappy with some people, maybe they get too close? But each time he has given them a nip on the buttocks, its almost a warning from him. These are not full on attacks and he doesn't give a warning growl before he does it. The odd thing is thats its always from behind, when any minor perceived threat is over.
I am extremelely concerned now because it happened again yesterday. My 14 yo daughter had taken him out and he nipped a lady. her husband became very aggressive and threatening and followed my daughter home.
[I haven't yet had the pleasure of meeting this 'gentleman' but we will be having a conversation about his inappropriate behaviour!!]
I would be very grateful for any advice on my dogs behaviour, i know we could muzzle him but I really don't want to!

Best

Dunc


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## Lucy Dog

First step is stop allowing your 14 year old daughter to walk a powerful dog that's known to bite without adult supervision. That's just completely irresponsible on your behalf and needs to stop. That is just inexcusable. That person had every right to be as upset as he was - I know I would have been.

With that said... What kind of training and socialization has your dog had and continue to have? Do you use any kind of equipment (prong, halti, etc) when walking the dog? 

How is the dog when not on the leash with strangers? Is he leery of them at all? Has he ever attacked not on leash?

How long has this been going on? 

Would you be open to getting a trainer involved and having him evaluated?


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## Duncan.F

Lucy Dog said:


> First step is stop allowing your 14 year old daughter to walk a powerful dog that's known to bite without adult supervision. That's just completely irresponsible on your behalf and needs to stop. That is just inexcusable. That person had every right to be as upset as he was - I know I would have been.
> 
> With that said... What kind of training and socialization has your dog had and continue to have? Do you use any kind of equipment (prong, halti, etc) when walking the dog?
> 
> How is the dog when not on the leash with strangers? Is he leery of them at all? Has he ever attacked not on leash?
> 
> How long has this been going on?
> 
> Would you be open to getting a trainer involved and having him evaluated?



Hi Lucy,
Yes you are right we will not let her take the dog out alone again! The first time was the postman, the dog was sitting in the open boot of our car and the postman walked past him from behind. My wife was outside working and hadn't seen the postie. The second time my wife was talking to a near neighbour [dog doesn't know him] and he started to wave his arms around and walked between my wife and the dog. That was the reason i didn't bother about my daughter taking him out. I assumed that the dog had felt his mum was in a threatening situation on both occasions....I have never trained or encouraged this kind of behaviour, to the contrary we have always encouraged him to be friendly to guests and strangers when they come to the house.

He had socialisation classes as a pup and i have done the obediience training. Off the lead I find him better behaved, he is often not friendly towards some dogs and is cautious to strangers he meets. He doesn't like his head being patted by strangers and generally just ducks away. He has never growled at anyone when out to my recollction. He most definitely not a wag your tail, welcome all, kinda dog!! He is wary of strangers but hugely freindly to anyone he knows, dog or human.

I am trying to understand his mindset when he does these things!

I appreciate the reason the lady got upset and my daughter apologised to her. But a man following a 14 yo girl home and being threatening and aggressive is not a wise choice in life. He is in serious trouble......!


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## e.rigby

First, you need to ALWAYS use a leash; no exception to this rule. The first time your dog ever nipped at someone was one time too many!

Second, if your dog is trained to walk in the heel position, he should be able to do this on lead. If he isn't, I'd suggest working with him until he can. 

Third, please seek the advice of a trainer! There is more going on here than you know and a trainer (at least a good one) will be able to interpret what's happening and guide you along and help you fix it! 

Best of luck


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## Lucy Dog

Based on your description, it sounds like you've got a fearful dog and a reactive dog. He's unsure and fearful of what he's unsure of, so he bites. Pretty simple, right? 

This type of behavior has nothing to do with protecting your wife or your daughter... he's protecting himself. Again, this isn't protection, it's fear. Big difference.

I think you need to learn to do two things - manage and train. 

You need to manage this dog so he never has a chance to bite or attack anyone ever again. When he's going for walks... make sure you're aware of your surroundings and have complete control of him. Do not allow him to roam where he is able to get at strangers or in areas where he can't be 100% trust. With his history, if he bites one more person, it's completely your fault. You need to be in control of this dog at all times! 

The second thing is training. I highly recommend you either bring in a trainer or join a reactive dog class. Personally, I'd rather join a reactive dog class because it will give you hands on experience with strangers while training. Bringing in an experienced trainer can also help evaluate the dog. I can't see your dog and I'm definitely not a dog trainer. I'm just giving you this advice out of experience and common sense. You need to consult a professional who can actually see and work with the dog, hand on.


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## debbiebrown

i agree, it sounds like your dog is displaying fearful/unsure behavior, especially ducking his head when people try to pet, and nipping when people are not facing him, if he was a real confident dominant dog and was protecting he would take a full bite and would do it while people were facing him.......

yep, you need a trainer, and looks like you have alot of training and conditioning to do.....in the mean time i would not put him in the position that he's going to nip someone........


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## debbiebrown

let me re-phrase my first pharagragh, if he were a confident dog he would know the difference between a threat and a non threat.........Get some help, very seldom can people deal with this issue on their own........


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## Farm Flyer

Do NOT walk him with out a leash. You are askin for legal asction if three is an event. What kind of collar and leash are you using? If you are using a retractable leash, they are useless with an untrained or poorly trained shepherd (or any other dog for that matter).


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## NancyJ

I will say that concerning the agitated man's "Inappropriate" behavior.

You would be well advised to be very nice and very apologetic to him, particularly if the dog even slightly broke the skin. I think you are in denial here. Of course the man may have been agitated - *your dog just bit his wife*! I would have understood if he had seriously injured or killed your dog. 

If you do not fix this the dog will likely be taken from you and PTS. It sounds like you are making excuses and don't want to inconvenience the dog with a muzzle. YOu need to realize that this will only get worse on its own.

He does sound like a fearful dog and both of you need help to manage this.


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## ninemaplefarm

Duncan,

I just wanted to add that I applaud you for coming on the forum seeking advice. Obviously, you recognize that you are unsure how to handle the situation. Please do not take offense at the comments posted but use the information to help your dog. Sounds like you all love him very much and I think you can help him act more appropriate in those situations which cause him stress. I agree to try to find a professional. Not a group class but someone who can work one on one with you. 

So, good for your for seeking help and advice. A professional will really be able to set you on the right track. You could call obedience schools ad ask them for recommendations for you. Good luck and I hope everything works out for you!!


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## wolfstraum

I agree with the board members - biting from behind is not "protective" - it is fearful...the dog "nipping" at people will cost your dog his life. PERIOD. It is not acceptable behavior. It is behavior that will get you sued, and then your insurance company will INSIST that the dog be put down.

As others say, do NOT walk dog wihtout lead. I don't like halti at all...they are bandaids for training, but in the case of a dog who is behaving inappropriately with his mouth, fit him up with a head collar that restricts his OPENING his mouth enough to bite....don't walk him with it alone, use a collar and lead...Frankly, this dog would NEVER EVER go on a walk on a public street where YOU are risking HIS life by putting him in a situation where he might nip or bite again. Fence in your yard and play with him for exercise.

I hope you understand that everyone here is concerned that the dog will suffer dire consequences if you do not understand and manage him more carefully.

Good luck.

Lee


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## ShenzisMom

Make the muzzle a party hat.
Get into training
Socialize your dog with the muzzle on.

Hunkie gets a Party Hat! | Self Help Dog Training - Blog
This is a great video. Your dog nipping from behind is a fear issue not a protective one. You need to learn how to give your dog confidence. Find a good trainer and get working


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## wyominggrandma

He walks ahead of you by 20 yards or so? That is at least 60 feet away. And he has bitten three times? Um, so if a child is out in their yard and walks on the sidwalk in front of your dog, he "nips" the child on the butt when they walk away and you are 20 yards away? That dog could bite that child severely before you could even catch up to him. 
You act like this is a problem but not a big one... This is serious stuff. This dog should never be off leash. This dog should never be in public without a muzzle on. This dog, and you the owner need some help and fast. 
The man walked behind your daughter all the way home after the dog bit his wife? And you are mad at the man? Are you for real? You are lucky he didn't have the cops on the phone and have them there to pick up the dog when it arrived at your home. If he was talking to your daughter all the way home, at least he stayed back, some would have probably shot the dog on the spot. You should thank your lucky stars that a lawyer is not already knocking at your door. Or the police or the animal control
I had a guy call me up about his boxer for some advice. Seems the boxer had been with them his whole life, he was 3, neutered, a family pet. Loved anyone who came to the house, etc. Anyway, he had started to bark and nip at people walking by. They had an underground fence and he was running through it. I talked alot about fear aggression, training, etc. I talked about a fenced yard or kennel, which he did not want to do. I talked about a muzzle, he did not want to do it. I told him that the dog would probably get worse and really hurt someone. He said, oh it was just a few nips, not a big deal. We put the dog to sleep about three weeks ago. The dog left the yard again and actually bit a person severely. Cost them a fortune in medical bills and a lawsuit. 
This is where you are headed if you don't do something fast. Of course, everyone on this board knows how I feel about a dog biting or nipping a human. I don't beleive in second or third chances when that happens. But that is just me.


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## Good_Karma

Your dog sounds a lot like my Niko. Niko has never bitten anyone, but I am EXTREMELY vigilant with him around strangers and he is never off lead in a public area. When we do go out in public, I keep him on a very short leash and bring the best treats in the world so I can get his attention on me instead of anyone else on the sidewalk.

We have made huge strides since we have been working with a private trainer that we hired in January of this year. I would very seriously advise that you give this a try, no matter what the cost. You owe it to your dog and your neighbors to do this.

You CAN manage this problem, you just need the tools to do it. The trainer can help you with this. Try to find a trainer who uses positive reinforcement more than one who uses punishment. I think a balanced approach to fear reactivity brings about the best results.

Best of luck in this! I know how stressful it is to have a dog that seems out of control.


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## Jessiewessie99

I agree with everyone else. The dog sounds like a fear reactive dog. After the 1st bite you should IMMEDIATELY evaluated his behavior and see what was wrong. Use a leash!!A fear reactive dog, especially one that bites, especially in an area that is not yours, I would leash the dog. What you are doing is just asking for trouble. If you don't act now and do something about your dog's behavior YOUR DOG will end up paying with his life.


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## PaddyD

Duncan.F said:


> I am extremelely concerned now because it happened again yesterday. My 14 yo daughter had taken him out and he nipped a lady. her husband became very aggressive and threatening and followed my daughter home.
> [I haven't yet had the pleasure of meeting this 'gentleman' but we will be having a conversation about his inappropriate behaviour!!]
> I would be very grateful for any advice on my dogs behaviour, i know we could muzzle him but I really don't want to!
> 
> Best
> 
> Dunc


If your dog bit MY wife on the butt you would DEFINITELY get some 'inappropriate' behavior from me. After all, how
am I to know he is done biting and won't escalate?!


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## robinhuerta

1st bite/nip = big mistake, accident, possible ignorance in dog behaviour
2nd bite/nip = irresponsibility, carelessness, 
3rd bite/nip = NO EXCUSE.

JMHO


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## codmaster

Duncan.F said:


> Hi All,
> We have a 3 yr old neutered male GSD. He is generally very well behaved, he walks to heel well [*I rarely use a lead*], will come when called and sit etc. On the lead he does pull and always has to be in front on walks but will rarely leave us by more than 20 yds or so.
> At home he is the gentlest fun creature, despite his size and power he never uses his teeth or shows any aggression to famly members or visitors. He is very vocal towards strangers at the door and I have little doubt that he would have a go should someone try to get in. He is very protective towards my wife and daughter, if I were to playfight with them he gets upset and jumps up [something he never does normally!] or will come between us. He doesn't attemt to bite me but just looks a bit unhappy and asks me to stop!
> However on* 3 occasions my dog has nipped people* whilst out walking. I have no idea what triggers these situations. He just seems to be unhappy with some people, maybe they get too close? But each time he has given them a nip on the buttocks, its almost a warning from him. These are not full on attacks and he doesn't give a warning growl before he does it. The odd thing is thats *its always from behind*, when any minor perceived threat is over.
> I am extremelely concerned now because it happened again yesterday. My 14 yo daughter had taken him out and *he nipped a lady*. *her husband became very aggressive and threatening and followed my daughter home*.
> [I haven't yet had the pleasure of meeting this 'gentleman' but we will be having a conversation about* his* inappropriate behaviour!!]
> I would be very grateful for any advice on my dogs behaviour, i know we *could muzzle him but I really don't want to!*
> 
> Best
> 
> Dunc


*Are you serious? Your dog is totally out of control and proabaly in most places would have been PTS by now with that bite record.*

*You allow a young child to walk a dog (offlead?) with such fear aggression behavior!*

*And then you get upset about someone getting u7pset about your dog biting his wife????? That is unbelievable! Get a grip and clean up your and your dog's act!*

*"You don't want to use a muzzle"? Why the heck not - like to see more people get bit by your dog?*


*BTW, if your dog had bitten my wife - more would have happened than just following your dog home, trust me!*


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## codmaster

Good_Karma said:


> Your dog sounds a lot like my Niko. Niko has never bitten anyone, but I am EXTREMELY vigilant with him around strangers and he is never off lead in a public area. When we do go out in public, I keep him on a very short leash and* bring the best treats in the world so I can get his attention on me* instead of anyone else on the sidewalk.
> 
> We have made huge strides since we have been working with a private trainer that we hired in January of this year. I would very seriously advise that you give this a try, no matter what the cost. You owe it to your dog and your neighbors to do this.
> 
> You CAN manage this problem, you just need the tools to do it. The trainer can help you with this. Try to find a trainer who uses positive reinforcement more than one who uses punishment. I think a balanced approach to fear reactivity brings about the best results.
> 
> Best of luck in this! I know how stressful it is to have a dog that seems out of control.


Getting a top trainer to work with is key. But what did your trainer indicate to do if your dog is not hungry when he decides to act up?

I have a dog who can sometimes be a bit reactive (mostly to other dogs not people) and will usually show no interest in any treat whatsoever when he does get amped up.


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## Duncan.F

Thank you for the more sensible replies, I think we will look for a good trainer! Some of your responses regarding the actions of the husband surprise me. Whilst you are clearly knowledgeable about dogs your judgement of the husbands responses are way off the mark. I do understand he was upset but to follow and threaten a lone 14 yo girl is plainly stupid, yes irresponsible and yes illegal!


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## wolfstraum

The issue of how the man behaved is unclear...did he threaten her with ???? calling the cops? We don't understand the interactions and thus, personally, I have no comment on his behavior....the fact remains that he saw your dog bite his wife, and some anger is understandable. Perhaps you would have been happier had he called the police while he was walking and you had police at your door when she arrived home with the dog. He had every right to know where your daughter and the dog lived...his behavior could have well been over the top and unacceptable...and 2 wrongs do not make a right. But his anger is understandable.

Again, fence, muzzle, dog under control and trained = dog who will be able to go on living....lack of those things = lawsuit and dog who must be euthanized....dealing with the angry man politely without recriminations for his anger may help next move be option 1 rather than his anger confronted with your anger which will more than likely result in option 2.

Think about it long and hard before dealing with the angry husband.

Lee


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## Castlemaid

Duncan, don't underestimate the seriousness of this situation - people have given you some very good advice, please don't be turned off by some members who are trying to turn this into a personal attack. 

We all want your dog to be a safe and reliable family member that can be trusted out in public, the same as you do, and we don't want him put to sleep because of the next person he bites. So for now, you must not put your dog in ANY situation where there is a potential for a bite, which means just about any situation where he has access to people. It will be a huge change in how you view your dog, how you handle your dog, in how you have always done things. It will be completely different now with a leash and a muzzle and never never never letting your guards down - but these steps will save his life, which is much more important than having a few minutes of off-leash, no muzzle freedom. 

Take all the advice to heart, get some help, keep your dog alive, don't be forced to have him put down.


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## codmaster

Duncan.F said:


> Thank you for the more sensible replies, I think we will look for a good trainer! Some of your responses regarding the actions of the husband surprise me. Whilst you are clearly knowledgeable about dogs your judgement of the husbands responses are way off the mark. I do understand he was upset but to follow and threaten a lone 14 yo girl is plainly stupid, yes irresponsible and yes illegal!


Yup, try to deflect responsibility from your out of control dog and totally irrisponsible treatment of him.

If he didn't follow your daughter home, how would you suggest that he find out who was the owner of the dog and who is responsible for his wife's injury and trauma?

Or did your daughter, whom you obviously consider to be capable of walking a dog with a known and extensive history of biting and aggressive behavior, volunteer your name address and insurance company information? (I do tend to doubt that very much!)

BTW, you never did explain just how this understandably upset man "threatened" your daughter? 

Interesting that you seem so upset that somebody "threatened" your family mamber (but with no physical harm, I am assuming) and yet you don't think that he had any right to be equally upset when your big powerful GSD actually physically assualted his family member, right? Sound ok to you?

Just out of curiousity, don't you think that you are responsible for this poor woman's (who your dog attacked while in a public place) injuries?


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## Duncan.F

codmaster said:


> Yup, try to deflect responsibility from your out of control dog and totally irrisponsible treatment of him.
> 
> If he didn't follow your daughter home, how would you suggest that he find out who was the owner of the dog and who is responsible for his wife's injury and trauma?
> 
> Or did your daughter, whom you obviously consider to be capable of walking a dog with a known and extensive history of biting and aggressive behavior, volunteer your name address and insurance company information? (I do tend to doubt that very much!)
> 
> BTW, you never did explain just how this understandably upset man "threatened" your daughter?
> 
> Interesting that you seem so upset that somebody "threatened" your family mamber (but with no physical harm, I am assuming) and yet you don't think that he had any right to be equally upset when your big powerful GSD actually physically assualted his family member, right? Sound ok to you?
> 
> Just out of curiousity, don't you think that you are responsible for this poor woman's (who your dog attacked while in a public place) injuries?


OK I didn't give a verbatim run down of the incident but for the record my daughter gave the lady our home phone number twice...She simply was frighten by the behaviour of all concerned and these people tried to prevent her. I take my responsiblities in all ways seriously, which is why I came here to ask for advice. I didn't come on here to get a load of grief!!


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## msvette2u

Your dog needs training, obedience and confidence building exercises. 


> he gets upset and jumps up [something he never does normally!] or will come between us. He doesn't attemt to bite me but just looks a bit unhappy and asks me to stop


He also needs guidance in the home, and leadership.
A confident, respectful dog will not bite others unless there is a credible threat. He ought to be looking to his owners to help him determine what a threat truly is. If your neighbor Joe comes over and visits, the dog needs to look to you (who are happy Joe's there, and not panicking over Joe's presence), see you are not upset that Joe's there, and act accordingly - that is, not bite or "nip". 

His "nipping" behavior, which only occurs after people walk away, speaks to his fear/uncertainty and disrespect for you as his leader.

I like these suggestions for getting your dog's respect back so you may properly lead it. 

Yes it's your own fault for letting him bite three people and you may indeed lose him now, but at least get his respect back - it is do-able. 

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Oh, buy a leash _today_ and use it!! Keep him on it even while in the house, for now!


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## Duncan.F

Castlemaid said:


> Duncan, don't underestimate the seriousness of this situation - people have given you some very good advice, please don't be turned off by some members who are trying to turn this into a personal attack.
> 
> We all want your dog to be a safe and reliable family member that can be trusted out in public, the same as you do, and we don't want him put to sleep because of the next person he bites. So for now, you must not put your dog in ANY situation where there is a potential for a bite, which means just about any situation where he has access to people. It will be a huge change in how you view your dog, how you handle your dog, in how you have always done things. It will be completely different now with a leash and a muzzle and never never never letting your guards down - but these steps will save his life, which is much more important than having a few minutes of off-leash, no muzzle freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> Take all the advice to heart, get some help, keep your dog alive, don't be forced to have him put down.


Yes, i have listened am already looking for a trainer, just finding the right person tho. My daughter won't be walking the dog any more and he will be on a lead with me! I won't let him be in a 'position' any more. I just find some of the responses very negative and unhelpful....


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## msvette2u

_I just find some of the responses very negative and unhelpful...._

Always happens on a forum with hundreds of people...that's the risk of posting info. However, you've gotten some great advice too. Take the good, leave the bad


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## codmaster

Duncan.F said:


> Yes, i have listened am already looking for a trainer, just finding the right person tho. My daughter won't be walking the dog any more and he will be on a lead with me! I won't let him be in a 'position' any more. I just find some of the responses very negative and unhelpful....


 
Maybe your attitude just might have influenced some of the responses you got?


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## chelle

I would have followed your daughter home also, because I would've wanted to know where you live in order to file a report.

I would not have yelled, threatened or any other thing. She's just a girl. Even if she had been able to provide information, I would not have accepted it. I would want to know for sure where the dog lived.

I also might've tried to talk to her about why she was off-leash walking a dog that behaves like that...but minus threats or intimidation. She's not the owner, she's just a kid. 

I understand the man's anger, tho it sounds like he did go over the top, but I would be greatly upset myself if a dog bit my child/mom/bf/etc and doubly /triply so if the dog had been off-leash. This man, as nasty as he may have been, does have great power over your dog's life right now if he chooses to pursue it.


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## NancyJ

Would it be fair to say had not that man shaken you up so much it mat have simply been another nip in your mind. People do get emotional about this because the responsible dog owners are being punished by the actions of the irresponsible.

You are being responsible and we will do all we can to help you.

Please give the man the benefit of the doubt though. Personally i think he should habe called the police and let them talk with your daughter instead of scaring her. In that regard perhaps you should count youblessings.r


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## selzer

Duncan, 

1. You are responsible for your dog's actions. If someone sues you for even a nip, the chances are your insurance company will drop you like a hot potato. At that point, with a GSD with a bite history good luck getting homeowner's insurance. Many people have to euthanize their dog because they must have insurance, and they cannot get it with the breed/bite history. 

2. Your behavior is extremely damaging to our breed as a whole. Every nip, every bite has terrible consequences. The angry man's wife might be a council member who when breed bans come up, will want to add GSDs to the ever growing list. Our breed has a nasty reputation, and are on many lists already, lists of breeds landlords will not accept in rentals, breed bans, lists of breeds insurance companies will not cover. So letting your dog run along off-lead and bite people ticks every person off who reads your post.

3. Your dog is not in a happy place. He is frightened and not being given the leadership he needs. By taking control of the situation, by giving him limits, boundaries, training, and keeping him safely on lead, and muzzled if necessary, by providing him with the training and leadership, you will learn his body language and in what circumstances he is not comfortable. Letting your dog run freely ahead of you is not really kind, keeping him leashed is not unkind. Your dog with his freedom and lack of boundaries, is very uncertain, has weak nerves and is nipping people going away because he is afraid. 

I really feel for the dog. You got a long road to go with this dog, but start with managing him properly. Keep him contained, and leashed to a responsible adult. 

The man whose wife was bitten, he should have been angry. 14 is not a small/young child. If she is old enough to walk the GSD, then she is old enough to hear some guff when he bites someone. Protect your kid, protect your dog.


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## Lucy Dog

I'm usually not the one to call out everyone on this, but why are we even discussing (and arguing) how the man treated your daughter? 

It's completely irrelevant with the situation at hand here... do you guys really want to go around in circles about this? Seems like a complete non-issue with your original question...


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## Castlemaid

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm usually not the one to call out everyone on this, but why are we even discussing (and arguing) how the man treated your daughter?
> 
> It's completely irrelevant with the situation at hand here... do you guys really want to go around in circles about this? Seems like a complete non-issue with your original question...


I agree with this - that the man was angry and followed the daughter does not in any way diminish the seriousness of the situation. Focusing on that part is a Red Herring.


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## chelle

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm usually not the one to call out everyone on this, but why are we even discussing (and arguing) how the man treated your daughter?
> 
> It's completely irrelevant with the situation at hand here... do you guys really want to go around in circles about this? Seems like a complete non-issue with your original question...


I think it was honed in on because it seemed the OP (seemingly) felt less concern over the major issue of the nip than he did over the daughter being followed by the man.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Duncan, I'm glad you're taking this seriously. If you lived in the US, your dog would probably already have been taken away and possibly put to sleep by now, which is why people are responding so strongly to your post. Finding a qualified trainer is a good start, but in the meantime, (and possibly forever) you need to manage your dog's environment so that he NEVER has the opportunity to bite another person. I don't care how nicely he heels off leash, you simply do not have the control over him that you would if he were leashed, and he's shown you three times now that he can't be trusted off leash. 



> The odd thing is thats its always from behind, when any minor perceived threat is over.


It's really not that odd at all - a fearful, less confident is going to do exactly this sort of sneak attack rather than confronting a threat head on. And the fact that he's reacting this way to non-threatening situations is definitely a concern.


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## carmspack

I think wolfstraum and jocoyn and selzer gave some very good advice. I agree that a lot of the responses were due to the blase attitude where the dog "rules" in a public space and the self righteous comments about waiting for the man to show up so he can have a conversation about the man's inappropriate behaviour. I am sorry the young girl was involved . 
You don't know anything about the woman that got bitten. She may have all sorts of extenuating circumstances from being bitten as a child and fearful , to being pregnant , having a medical condition - heart problem , high blood pressure -- so much , does not matter one iota. She is in a public space . These may be the things which made the man all the more protective.

Every bad "gsd" having a "bad" encounter with the public chips away at the perception of the majority of good gsd out there , making it difficult to get insurance, and housing . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I have always called those dog nippers in the rear, chicken poop (nice word) butt (nice word) biters. They nail em and back off. 

Out of fear/no confidence, they aren't going to do a front on confrontation, they are going to nail from behind because they feel more powerful when it's NOT a frontal confrontation.

I think your doing the right thing, not allowing your daughter to walk him alone.

I think finding a professional to work with you, is a plus, tho know this dog may never ever be trustworthy around strangers. 

With that in mind, right now, I"d keep a muzzle on him out in public, I would allow absolutey NO interaction with strangers, NONE. No petting, no talking to, no staring. He is "invisible". 

No growling in my opinion is worse than growling. Atleast with a growl, your getting a signal from the dog he is not comfortable with whatever the situation is. One that gives NO warning, may be harder to read. So you need to expect the unexpected with him and be pro active in ALL situations, you need to react before he has a chance to. 

I'm sorry the guy scared the heck out of your daughter, but a reaction like that doesn't surprise me. It's just a shame it was your daughter

I hope you can help remedy your situation


----------



## Verivus

Good for you for looking for a trainer and understanding your dog must be kept leashed. Just make sure you get references; there are excellent trainers and then there are the money swindlers. It would also be an excellent idea to get him a muzzle until he's at least made good progress. Your dog is scared and reactive. If that dog had bitten me I would've called the cops immediately so I think you should count your blessings on that end. If it happened in the states your dog would've already been put down. So take this chance and help him.


----------



## ninemaplefarm

Duncan.F said:


> Yes, i have listened am already looking for a trainer, just finding the right person tho. My daughter won't be walking the dog any more and he will be on a lead with me! I won't let him be in a 'position' any more. I just find some of the responses very negative and unhelpful....


Duncan,

Good for you! You, obviously love the dog and want to do right by him, so now you have some good advice and tools to work with until you can find a professional! In the meantime, you are now doing the right things. Stick with it and if you put the time and energy into the situation and you will be successful. 

Thus, I am glad you posted here to ask for help and advice. Ignore the personal attacks and negativity. 

On another note, as a parent, I would be freaked out if an irate man followed my child home too and scared the crap out of them (especially after gaining the home phone number). That is not cool. 

Please continue your education about dog training and take the good comments to heart. People only want to prevent your dog from having to be put down as his behavior is how it starts a lot of times in dogs that end up viciously attacking and seriously injuring someone..maybe someone else's child. 

Hang in there and good luck with the professional!!


----------



## BlackPuppy

I have a dog that does something similar. When somebody passes us, just as soon as the person is past the mid-point, she will try to grab the arm. It is not all the time, and if somebody is running, she really wants to grab them. 

My girl has been doing this since she was a little pup. She was conditioned in her first 2 months to be a working dog, and came from a working line breeder. She is also very fearful and nervous. 

Now she is 5 years old and I rarely see this behavior anymore. She has learned that people sometimes give her cookies, but she is still very wary of strangers. Luckily, I have a lot of contractors come to the house and they have all helped socialize her. 

I think if you keep your dog on a leash and give corrections when he "tries" to nip, AND have the odd person at the park give him a treat, that will go a long way to help curb the behavior.


----------



## PaddyD

PaddyD said:


> If your dog bit MY wife on the butt you would DEFINITELY get some 'inappropriate' behavior from me. After all, how
> am I to know he is done biting and won't escalate?!


I stand by what I said. That is not a personal attack, it's an honest
reaction. I repeat, how is the person whose wife just got bitten to 
know that there is not more attack to come? I have been attacked
by a GSD that was 'held' by a 14 year-old boy who might as well
have been a Raggedy Andy once that dog made up his mind.
The OP stated he doesn't want to muzzle his dog after 3 biting
incidents then gets offended by responses. I think there is a
thread with an appropriate title for that.
Many responses were well-meaning and articulately presented.
As for me I think the OP needs to get his head out of the sand.
Personal attack? Maybe so.


----------



## fuzzybunny

Duncan,

Good for you for seeking advice and I wish you all the best and hope you get positive results from the trainer. One of my dogs used to be dog-aggressive so I understand your frustration and you're doing the right thing by seeking help.

I understand the man's anger but taking it out on your daughter and scaring her was inappropriate. He had every right to be angry but it's unfortunate that it came out on your 14 year old daughter.


----------



## Good_Karma

codmaster said:


> Getting a top trainer to work with is key. But what did your trainer indicate to do if your dog is not hungry when he decides to act up?
> 
> I have a dog who can sometimes be a bit reactive (mostly to other dogs not people) and will usually show no interest in any treat whatsoever when he does get amped up.


The key is to redirect before he gets red zone. Niko's reactions are not to the point where I cannot get his attention back. He actually listens pretty well for me. I am just now getting to the point in his reconditioning where I am allowing him the choice to react or not react. About 70% of the time he chooses wisely.  And if he does not, I can get his attention back on me. He's very food motivated and always hungry. Plus I make the best beef and cheese mini meatballs in the world. 

I also do not put him in situations where I suspect I may not be able to get him to refocus on me. He lives in a very controlled environment. I used to walk him around town, but after being charged by a couple of off-leash dogs, we stick to the storefronts and parks where I can see people coming from a distance and make evasive moves if needed.


----------



## MichelleYoo

I think you've gotten some good training advice so I won't repeat it but want to point out some other things: I'm not sure where you live but you may want to check the local laws & your insurance policy. I'm amazed that you haven't been sued yet if he's nipped 3 times. This is extremely serious! In some areas, the 2nd time makes him a "vicious dog" and the court can order him put to sleep. Most insurance policies will not cover you if the dog has a history of biting. You didn't say if the other bites are recorded anywhere, I'm guessing you've been extremely lucky and they're not. However if you get sued, the attorney or insurance company could dig up the history of the previous bite and you may find that your insurance company won't cover you because of the previous bites. This is an incredibly major issue - this is the type of thing you could lose your home over. And I know it's been "minor" up to now but what if he bites a 5 yr old child, that 5 yr old child's face would be right at his level. Also, if anyone goes to the hospital for the bite in most states it's mandatory reporting and you will have the police at your door. You better have a current rabies certificate and then you'll have to do a 10 day quarantine & at least 3 vet visits. The legal issues are what I would be incredibly concerned with right now (in addition to the fact that your dog is biting people). And as other have said, this is not a courageous dog protecting his family, this is a scared, nervous fear biter. Not trying to be harsh, but I think you need to realize how serious this is.


----------



## codmaster

PaddyD said:


> I stand by what I said. That is not a personal attack, it's an honest
> reaction. I repeat, how is the person whose wife just got bitten to
> know that there is not more attack to come? I have been attacked
> by a GSD that was 'held' by a 14 year-old boy who might as well
> have been a Raggedy Andy once that dog made up his mind.
> The OP stated he doesn't want to muzzle his dog after 3 biting
> incidents then gets offended by responses. I think there is a
> thread with an appropriate title for that.
> Many responses were well-meaning and articulately presented.
> As for me I think the OP needs to get his head out of the sand.
> Personal attack? Maybe so.


Well said.


----------



## Duncan.F

Hi all an good morning from sunny England!

Thank you for the advice, I have listened and will act on the positive stuff. Sadly, I have been left with the impression that although this forum clearly had a lot helpful guys and a lot of great knowledge to share there are some on here who need to be moderated. As some have said take the good advice and ignore the bad but it does leave a bad taste when you come looking for help. This is probably my last post and I do sincerely thank those who have offered good advice.

Firstly I think I have seem to have given an erroneous impression that I didn't take this, or previous incidents seriously. I very much do!! We were both very upset and concerned over the dogs behaviour. When my daughter came back after the third incident I said to my wife we have to get help or the dog, as much as I love him, will have to be put to sleep. As someone rightly pointed out it could have been much worse, it could have been a child. I take responsiblity, as head honcho, for my dogs behaviour its not his fault nor my daughters. Just to clarify the dog was on a lead and at heel with my daughter. When I take him out he walks to close heel in built up areas and when we reach open gound he is released. My comment about never straying more than 20 yds was on open fields, not built up areas. I accept the comments about the fearful/reactive responses of the dog, that all makes sense, its just so much out of context with his 'normal' self tho. He does very much accept us as his leader and he gets clear and consistent direction on his behaviour and has done since day one. However, I am not sure the same apples to our daughter.... She won't be walking the dog by herself for some time anyway.

The latest incident however became a different scenario and 'muddied the water' when the guy followed my daughter home. What started out as a very serious incident with our dog finished with an even more serious incident with our daughter being traumatised by a man who dealt with the situation very badly. 

What actually happened was that my daughter have the lady her phone number three times, this was witnessed by a near neighbour. The neighbour said the lady was shouting and tried to restrain my daughter from leaving. My daughter gave her our number again and pointed to where we lived. [its a small estate, I have walked past their house twice a day for the last three years....]My daughter said I am not staying here with you, I don't know you, I am going home. By this time the husband arrived from his house[100yds away]. My daughter had just arrived home and the man then confronted her at the door of the house and at one point tried to get in. He shouted at her, swore and threatened to put our windows in and then demanded compensation. Ironically, but for the dog, he would have got in! The dog was behind an internal 'baby' gate but in sight of the door and was barking loudly. The man backed away from the door and said to the effect 'look its dangerous its still barking at me'! My daughter replied you are shouting and threatening me its not surprising!! With that she shut the door. Co-oincidentally I arrived a few minutes later but the guy had left by then.

I understand the man being angry, his wife had been bitten and that is a frightening experience, particularly from a big dog. What was not acceptable was how he dealt with it. One or two posters have taken a very emotive and unhelpful line, as I said I came on this forum for help with my dog problem. Not moral lectures, not lectures on 'what I would have done if I was that lady's husband' and not personal attacks. As I said in my opening paragraph I have been left with the impression that this is not a forum I would want to express a future problem in. Perhaps the moderators should consider whether some of the responses to a reasonable question were appropriate. Its always difficult on an open forum I realise!

I do take on board the comments made about insurances etc, I think most of you are in the states where the whole thing about lawyers/police/compensation/redress is much more of an issue than here in Britain. Although we are distinctly moving in the same direction! Our laws are similar I think in that the Police can prosecute the owner of a dog, the essence being they have to prove in court that the dog 'dangerous' [I accept that our dog is an that category]. Hopefully we will never be in that situation!

We have offered the lady some compensation and that has been accepted.


----------



## ninemaplefarm

Duncan,

So sorry that you had a less than positive experience with the forum. But, I can't say I am entirely surprised as people always presume the worst here. However, don't let the bad comments stop you from posting here as there are experienced people that may be able to help with a situation down the line...without casting judgement! Furthermore, there is a thing called constructive criticism that posters should keep in mind!! 

After all, it's the dogs that matter, right!!

I continue to wish you the best of luck with your dog and I think you are moving in the right direction now with him! Thanks for coming here to seek advice and, hopefully, the good comments will help carry you forward with your dog....


----------



## GSDElsa

Duncan,

I think you need to be objective and keep your ego out of it. You are still focusing way too much on what the dude did to your daughter. I understand how being a parent you would be upset over the man's actions and scaring your young girl, but none of that is even pertinent to helping you with your dog and is completely irrevelant to the discussion about how to control him. Yet you brought it up in the first post. I think that set the tone for how people responded to you--it was like you were and still are almost more focused on what a jerk the guy was than actually taking your dog's situation seriously.

Just my opinion on how you have come across. Maybe the negative posts aren't helpful, but neither is obsessing over how this dude acted inappropriately and how mad you are at him. As you implied that the guy was lucky you weren't around when he was harassing your daughter...he feels the same way about his wife. Maybe he acted in a way he normally wouldn't, but when people perceived a love one is in trouble protecting them can take over good behavior. 

I personally think that you need to do damage control. It will get around quickly that your dog has bit 3 people. Maybe the first 2 not as much because they were not people that live around you. But I'm sure the neighbor is not wasting much breath about the dangerous dog you have at your residence. Wouldn't surprise me if they find about about the other 2 times as well--gossip is funny that way. Just because you haven't had police show up on your doorstep doesn't mean they won't still come and doesn't mean that things can go south for you in the neighborhood. 

I think you need to suck up your hard feelings you still have this AM for your neighbor, go apologise PROFUSLY, and outline the steps you are going to take to help rectify the situation. And DON'T mention his actions towards your daughter. Kill him with kindness and apologies. That will be much more effective than chewing him out.


----------



## carmspack

Oh to be in England , or maybe , not. This makes the situation horribly worse . What were you thinking walking the dog off lead , 60 feet in front of you even , in a country that has some of the most , panicked irrational anti dog legislation. If I recall at the inception dogs that even looked like some dogs on the list were rounded up and destroyed. In case my american friends are not aware of what they may experience one day , with all these nasty unstable dogs biting , have a read of this American Dog Trainers Network -- Endangered Dogs Association

As I understand it in England the dog does not even need to do something, just give some one "a fright" .

correct ?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Castlemaid

Carmen, that article is over 10 years old. I would like to read something more objective with actual references or excerpts from the act. The article sounds sensationalist, and I'm doubting its neutrality. 

I'm very confused about this part:


> 1.If ANY dog (of ANY breed) either accidentally or intentionally injures, threatens, or even causes someone apprehension, the dog can be put to death, under this law! The DDA has already been responsible for numerous tragedies _including the unnecessary deaths of innocent dogs and their owners_.


(my italics)

Just how did this law cause the death of innocent dogs AND their owners? Are the owners also taken into custody and PTS?


----------



## NancyJ

Duncan, I hope you stay though I am not apologizing for myself or anyone who expressed some concern over your statements concerning the man. We were not there and our first impression was based on your first post which seemed to put more concern on the actions of the man than the dog.

The fact that you allowed the dog to bite three times before taking action was also of great concern to many. I am very glad you are working on fixing this. In regard to a muzzle - I had one I used with a fearful dog at the vet. It was an Italian Basket Muzzle (Example Italian Basket Dog Muzzles : Flexible Plastic Basket Dog Muzzle ) I am sure you can find them over there. I liked that the dog could fully pant and drink and it has another guard in the front that slides in. It seemed very comfortable for the dog as well. 

It is the internet and without the nuances of facial and body language there is often the chance of misunderstanding and that is no matter where you go. Where folks don't let up and are rude and harrassing is quite another matter and the moderators do police that kind of behavior which sometimes wind up with banning the offending member.

There is a wealth of knowledge here. Concerning the man, I think the only thing many of us are saying is that he really can make things a lot worse for you than frightening your daughter so maybe it is time to consider that. And to please consider how upset HE must have been.


----------



## Duncan.F

carmspack said:


> Oh to be in England , or maybe , not. This makes the situation horribly worse . What were you thinking walking the dog off lead , 60 feet in front of you even , in a country that has some of the most , panicked irrational anti dog legislation. If I recall at the inception dogs that even looked like some dogs on the list were rounded up and destroyed. In case my american friends are not aware of what they may experience one day , with all these nasty unstable dogs biting , have a read of this American Dog Trainers Network -- Endangered Dogs Association
> 
> As I understand it in England the dog does not even need to do something, just give some one "a fright" .
> 
> correct ?
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


The dog was on a short lead at the time! If I walk him he walks to heel until we reach the field then he is released. In general the Police are [like the British!!] very calm reasonable people who do a difficult job.
The law in this country is centered around what constitutes a dangerous dog. So no a 'fright' would not be sufficient.
There is separate legislation regarding banned breeds because we have a small section of out population who think that keeping a fighting dog as a badge and aggressive status symbol is clever.


----------



## doggiedad

your dog has a 3 bite count. does that make you
a part of the "out population" or is your dogs
behaviour typical of the owners in the "in population"?



Duncan.F said:


> The dog was on a short lead at the time! If I walk him he walks to heel until we reach the field then he is released. In general the Police are [like the British!!] very calm reasonable people who do a difficult job.
> The law in this country is centered around what constitutes a dangerous dog. So no a 'fright' would not be sufficient.
> 
> There is separate legislation regarding banned breeds because we have a
> 
> >>>>> small section of out population<<<<<
> 
> who think that keeping a fighting dog as a badge and aggressive status symbol is clever.


----------



## Duncan.F

:help:

They keep these dogs [Pit Bull is one breed] who are trained to be vicious and use them against others as a deliberate act, often part of criminal gangs. Does that sound like me or my dog? 

You sound like the kinda person who can make their own mind up. 



doggiedad said:


> your dog has a 3 bite count. does that make you
> a part of the "out population" or is your dogs
> behaviour typical of the owners in the "in population"?


----------



## Emoore

Duncan.F said:


> He is very protective towards my wife and daughter, if I were to playfight with them he gets upset and jumps up [something he never does normally!] or will come between us. He doesn't attemt to bite me but just looks a bit unhappy and asks me to stop!


Hi Duncan, just wanted to add that if you're still doing the playfighting in front of your dog, this needs to stop immediately. He has some fear/insecurity issues which could partially stem from his lack of confidence in you as his leader. How can he be a confident, stable dog when his "pack" is constantly fighting? In his mind, his leaders are unstable and he-- the lowest-ranking member- is having to keep order in the pack. This is _extremely_ stressful for a dog, especially an insecure one. It doesn't teach him to be protective, it just teaches him that the leader is off his rocker and the word is an unstable, scary place.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Duncan, I sincerely hope that you stick around and don't let a few bad apples spoil the whole forum for you. And please keep in mind that people only know what details you've (the general "you", not just you specifically) provided in your posts, so that's what they respond to. If you had mentioned all of this, people might have understood why you were so upset by the man whose wife was bit:



Duncan.F said:


> What actually happened was that my daughter have the lady her phone number three times, this was witnessed by a near neighbour. The neighbour said the lady was shouting and tried to restrain my daughter from leaving. My daughter gave her our number again and pointed to where we lived. [its a small estate, I have walked past their house twice a day for the last three years....]My daughter said I am not staying here with you, I don't know you, I am going home. By this time the husband arrived from his house[100yds away]. My daughter had just arrived home and the man then confronted her at the door of the house and at one point tried to get in. He shouted at her, swore and threatened to put our windows in and then demanded compensation.


And the fact that your dog has bit three people, you said he rarely walks on lead, and you don't want to use a muzzle.....well, can't you understand why some people reacted the way they did? Especially those who live in a country where ONE bite might be the end of your dog and they have no idea that you don't live here too? I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but it did appear that you were minimizing the bite and were more upset about the man's behavior. I know if I were ever in that situation I'd be _terrified_ of a lawsuit and that my dog would be taken away and killed - how the person who was bit or any of their family members reacted would be the least of my concerns. But that's from the perspective of someone living in the US where there's pretty much a zero tolerance level for dog bites. 

It's helpful to note where you live in your posts (or you can edit your profile to include a location, which will then show below your username) because although we have board members from all over the world, most are here in the US and people often assume that others are too unless they say otherwise. Laws are different in other countries, the culture is different, and knowing that going in makes it much easier for people to understand the situation and try to help.


----------



## codmaster

Duncan.F said:


> Hi all an good morning from sunny England!
> 
> Thank you for the advice, I have listened and will act on the positive stuff. Sadly, I have been left with the impression that although this forum clearly had a lot helpful guys and a lot of great knowledge to share there are some on here who need to be moderated. As some have said take the good advice and ignore the bad but it does leave a bad taste when you come looking for help. This is probably my last post and I do sincerely thank those who have offered good advice.
> 
> Firstly I think I have seem to have given an erroneous impression that I didn't take this, or previous incidents seriously. I very much do!! We were both very upset and concerned over the dogs behaviour. When my daughter came back after the third incident I said to my wife we have to get help or the dog, as much as I love him, will have to be put to sleep. As someone rightly pointed out it could have been much worse, it could have been a child. I take responsiblity, as head honcho, for my dogs behaviour its not his fault nor my daughters. Just to clarify the dog was on a lead and at heel with my daughter. When I take him out he walks to close heel in built up areas and when we reach open gound he is released. My comment about never straying more than 20 yds was on open fields, not built up areas. I accept the comments about the fearful/reactive responses of the dog, that all makes sense, its just so much out of context with his 'normal' self tho. He does very much accept us as his leader and he gets clear and consistent direction on his behaviour and has done since day one. However, I am not sure the same apples to our daughter.... She won't be walking the dog by herself for some time anyway.
> 
> The latest incident however became a different scenario and 'muddied the water' when the guy followed my daughter home. What started out as a very serious incident with our dog finished with an even more serious incident with our daughter being traumatised by a man who dealt with the situation very badly.
> 
> What actually happened was that my daughter have the lady her phone number three times, this was witnessed by a near neighbour. The neighbour said the lady was shouting and tried to restrain my daughter from leaving. My daughter gave her our number again and pointed to where we lived. [its a small estate, I have walked past their house twice a day for the last three years....]My daughter said I am not staying here with you, I don't know you, I am going home. By this time the husband arrived from his house[100yds away]. My daughter had just arrived home and the man then confronted her at the door of the house and at one point tried to get in. He shouted at her, swore and threatened to put our windows in and then demanded compensation. Ironically, but for the dog, he would have got in! The dog was behind an internal 'baby' gate but in sight of the door and was barking loudly. The man backed away from the door and said to the effect 'look its dangerous its still barking at me'! My daughter replied you are shouting and threatening me its not surprising!! With that she shut the door. Co-oincidentally I arrived a few minutes later but the guy had left by then.
> 
> I understand the man being angry, his wife had been bitten and that is a frightening experience, particularly from a big dog. What was not acceptable was how he dealt with it. One or two posters have taken a very emotive and unhelpful line, as I said I came on this forum for help with my dog problem. Not moral lectures, not lectures on 'what I would have done if I was that lady's husband' and not personal attacks. As I said in my opening paragraph I have been left with the impression that this is not a forum I would want to express a future problem in. Perhaps the moderators should consider whether some of the responses to a reasonable question were appropriate. Its always difficult on an open forum I realise!
> 
> I do take on board the comments made about insurances etc, I think most of you are in the states where the whole thing about lawyers/police/compensation/redress is much more of an issue than here in Britain. Although we are distinctly moving in the same direction! Our laws are similar I think in that the Police can prosecute the owner of a dog, the essence being they have to prove in court that the dog 'dangerous' [I accept that our dog is an that category]. Hopefully we will never be in that situation!
> 
> We have offered the lady some compensation and that has been accepted.


Duncan,

Your above explanation put your original posting in a whole different light for me. I can certainly see why you were so upset with the man's behavior toward your young daughter now. he was, while understandablly upset about his wife, WAY over the line. Once he got your name and phone and location, then he should have left and contacted you or your wife later and left your daughter alone. Got to say GOOD for your dog when he started getting over the top at your house.

Again I do apologize to you for my misunderstanding! 

It sounded (erroneosly as it turned out!) like you were ignoring your dog's problem and just talking about this guys behavior - easy to see why now!


----------



## carmspack

the information was given to me by a friend, now retired one time k9 handler , Essex . The phrasing "fright" was his .


----------



## Dainerra

I gotta say, though, in both the husband's and wife's defense, there is no way in HECK I would trust that the girl had given me the correct phone number and address. And wanting her to stay in the area (possibly until the authorities arrive) is a good thing. 
Did the man over-react? Absolutely, 2 wrongs don't make a right. But your daughter might have seemed to be leaving the situation and, if he didn't know personally where she lived, he might have wanted to be sure.


----------



## Duncan.F

carmspack said:


> the information was given to me by a friend, now retired one time k9 handler , Essex . The phrasing "fright" was his .


Ooohhhh Essex! They do things very differently down there!! Only kidding, I actually lived there for many years. As the law stands you could be arrested for having a dangerous dog and generally its accepted as usually as a result of a bite. Unless its a serious attack magistrates rarely use their power to have the dog put down and often put a restraining order on the owner.

The whole 'sue' thing is not so much an issue in Britain, it does happen but not aware of any doggy cases i could quote. There is an increasing compensation culture on 'accidents' either at work or at play with lawyers doing a no win no fee arrangement. It wouldn't occur to most dog owners here that they may be sued for their dogs actions!

Dunc


----------



## Duncan.F

Hi Codmaster,
Thank you for that, I too apologise for a] only giving half the story, I was trying to be brief! and b] giving the wrong impression on the seriousness of the bite.

We have now been visited by the Police and they are taking no action.... 

Your above explanation put your original posting in a whole different light for me. I can certainly see why you were so upset with the man's behavior toward your young daughter now. he was, while understandablly upset about his wife, WAY over the line. Once he got your name and phone and location, then he should have left and contacted you or your wife later and left your daughter alone. Got to say GOOD for your dog when he started getting over the top at your house.

Again I do apologize to you for my misunderstanding! 

It sounded (erroneosly as it turned out!) like you were ignoring your dog's problem and just talking about this guys behavior - easy to see why now!


----------



## msvette2u

In the states, while your dog may have been taken already, you could charge the woman with battery and even false imprisonment/kidnapping for attempting to restrain or detain your child.


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## carmspack

you've got a bit of punch to yourself , I was asked where I got my information from , Essex k9 officer who was active when the legislation came down is the answer . 
Well I hope you don't have any other incident as you are now on record . 
Good luck .


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## Duncan.F

We Brits have the impression that after any incident, people from the US of A either call a lawyer or pull a gun!!


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## RebelGSD

Duncan.F said:


> We Brits have the impression that after any incident, people from the US of A either call a lawyer or pull a gun!!


It is not far from the truth, unfortunately


----------



## jetscarbie

> he is often not friendly towards some dogs and is cautious to strangers he meets. He doesn't like his head being patted by strangers and generally just ducks away. He has never growled at anyone when out to my recollction. He most definitely not a wag your tail, welcome all, kinda dog!!


Duncan, my dogs don't like strangers patting their heads either.... I never let people (strangers) approach my dogs with their hands outstretched to pet. Even when guest come over my house, I always tell them before they enter to ignore my dogs.

I think some training sounds like a wonderful idea. Maybe you and your daughter could do it together. IMO....I see absoultey nothing wrong with your daughter ALSO learning the proper way to handle the dog.

Good luck to you. I hope you keep us updated with the progress.


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## PaddyD

ninemaplefarm said:


> Duncan,
> 
> So sorry that you had a less than positive experience with the forum. But, I can't say I am entirely surprised as people always presume the worst here. However, don't let the bad comments stop you from posting here as there are experienced people that may be able to help with a situation down the line...without casting judgement! Furthermore, there is a thing called constructive criticism that posters should keep in mind!!
> 
> *After all, it's the dogs that matter*, right!!
> 
> I continue to wish you the best of luck with your dog and I think you are moving in the right direction now with him! Thanks for coming here to seek advice and, hopefully, the good comments will help carry you forward with your dog....


It has always been my feeling that the safety of people that matters
more than any dog. And since you can't talk to the dog you have
to address your thoughts to the owner. Sometimes constructive
criticism comes in the form of negative comments. The OP seems to
be a mature, intelligent individual capable of sorting out what opinions
will benefit him and his dog.


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## LaceyBug

Duncan, I am so very sorry for all the negative and hasty comments. There is no need to step on eggshells because someone on here is going to flip their lid. But i give you a pat on the back for acknowledging there is a problem and you came here for help. I can agree on getting a personal trainer and working from there. Also, I would have reacted the same way you have after finding out some man followed my 14 year old home. Yes the dog did nip his wife, but in this day and age under no circumstances you DO NOT follow a teenage girl home EVER, especially threatening her. And as for some of you saying you would have done the same, shame on you! This is a young girl who was probably scared as it was and having a grown man follow you all the way home is pretty creepy! But whatever, everyone on here seems to live in some sort of perfect world with their "wonderful" dogs. I'm the first to admit my dog is not perfect, no where near it. But we work on it and at least he admit there is a problem. So for some of you to sit there and act like you have been a "perfect" dog owner all along, you're fake point blank period. I'm not trying to start any conflicts on here but the way some of you judge others immediately is a bit ridiculous and then some wonder why noone wants to post anymore.. SMH


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## selzer

LaceyBug said:


> A*lso, I would have reacted the same way you have after finding out some man followed my 14 year old home. Yes the dog did nip his wife, but in this day and age under no circumstances you DO NOT follow a teenage girl home EVER, especially threatening her. And as for some of you saying you would have done the same, shame on you! This is a young girl who was probably scared as it was and having a grown man follow you all the way home is pretty creepy!* But whatever, everyone on here seems to live in some sort of perfect world with their "wonderful" dogs. I'm the first to admit my dog is not perfect, no where near it. But we work on it and at least he admit there is a problem. So for some of you to sit there and act like you have been a "perfect" dog owner all along, you're fake point blank period. I'm not trying to start any conflicts on here but the way some of you judge others immediately is a bit ridiculous and then some wonder why noone wants to post anymore.. SMH


First the bolded: I am sorry, but I agree that in this day and age, no way would I trust the information a teenager gave me about their name, address, and shot status of their dog. I would follow them home and at least get an address. She should not have been scared out of her wits. It is not like someone came out of the shadows and was following her to get her to a remote location. Come on. She knew the dog bit his wife, so she knew why the man was following. I would be a lot more concerned about what my parents were going to say and do about the dog. 

No one has mentioned her behavior in all this. She is not a young child, she is a young person. Young people oftentimes do not maintain their cool as well as SOME adults. We did not know what she said or did, or what type of threats these were. 

And we do not know the OP. Is there any way for us to know that HE is not the person doing the over-reacting? We have no history with this guy. The ONLY thing we know is what he has told us, and is that the dog has bitten three separate people, he walks the dog without a leash, and that this time his daughter was followed home by an irate victim's husband. 

We only put ourselves in the other fellow's shoes and said heck yeah I would be ticked and I would want to know where these people lived because I would be planning to call the cops.

This was a bite, otherwise the guy would not have been so upset. Yes, yes there are nutcases out there, but the OP admits the dog has bitten THREE times. Once ok, now you know; twice, that is tough to give the benefit of the doubt; but three times is more than just we are perfect and have perfect dogs, and a bunch of liars to boot. 

I currently have ten, but I have had many more. Except for one time the dog being a little over enthusiastic when steak was offered to it, my dogs have NEVER set tooth on anyone other than me, two of them accidental, and the other dog was put down. 

I love the breed as do others on this site. I do not want to add to the negative reputation and yes it irritates me when someone lets their dog bite people multiple times before the think there might be a problem. And then, their attitude is far more anger at the response of the victim than there is responsibility for the behavior of the dog. 

If this thread had less than a Stepford wife response, then there was good reason. Yes we do always have more concern for the people. That is because when people are injured by dogs it is bad for everyone, primarily for the victim, the dog, and dog owner, and secondarily all of the people who have that breed of dogs, large formidable dogs, and dogs in general. 

LaceyBug, let's narrow the oringinal post: 

'I generally walk my dog off-lead, he has bitten three people so far.' 

Some of us do not have the superior control to respond to that statement without anger, frustration, or irritablility. And, no, we should not simply not post.


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## Jack's Dad

This is not directed at the OP who intends to do something but to the aggressive dog issue. Aggressive or dogs who bite have no business having access to the public. They either need training to the point where they are not aggressive or confinement or if really bad PTS. The public should not have to feel threaened by other's out of control dogs. 
I'm not starting a new thread on aggression because I tried that already.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> This is not directed at the OP who intends to do something but to the aggressive dog issue. Aggressive or dogs who bite have no business having access to the public. They either need training to the point where they are not aggressive or confinement or if really bad PTS. The public should not have to feel threaened by other's out of control dogs.
> I'm not starting a new thread on aggression because I tried that already.


I agree with this. We, as in all of us, need to manage and contain our dogs. We need to protect the public. This is one of those situations where I can have an excellent record with how I keep my dogs, but I can lose them because other owners do not act responsibly. In the last couple of years, they stopped adding grandfather clauses into breed bans. That gives you 90 days to rehome your dog, move, or euthanize your dog to remain within the law. This terrifies me, quite literally because I cannot move, and I license my dogs by breed, which means, I am in the first group that they come and get. This is why this is such a hot topic with some of us.


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## carmspack

amen , Selzer .


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## martemchik

Sadly that isn't possible. So many people see their GSD as being "protective" not aggressive or dangerous. The "my GSD is so protective it won't let anyone near me" line has been used so many times to start a post about a bite or aggressive behavior. People like this about their dogs, not realizing that their GSD is crossing the line when it's "protecting" them from children and other non-harmful people. I think its sad that people would rather have a GSD that is ready to bite anyone's head off rather than be friends with everyone. But I'm in the minority, I don't think my dog is here to protect me, I'm here to protect my dog and I wouldn't want it any other way.


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## LaRen616

martemchik said:


> Sadly that isn't possible. So many people see their GSD as being "protective" not aggressive or dangerous. The "my GSD is so protective it won't let anyone near me" line has been used so many times to start a post about a bite or aggressive behavior. People like this about their dogs, not realizing that their GSD is crossing the line when it's "protecting" them from children and other non-harmful people. I think its sad that people would rather have a GSD that is ready to bite anyone's head off rather than be friends with everyone. But I'm in the minority, I don't think my dog is here to protect me, I'm here to protect my dog and I wouldn't want it any other way.


:thumbup:


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## selzer

The breed has the term "aloof" in the breed standard. I think people use this as an excuse for shaky temperament. No, I do not want my dogs jumping on people, trying to lick their ears. _That _should not be how they are wired. I would not mind a dog that likes to get pets from all people. Rushie was pretty much a shameless hussy in that way. But he did not crawl all over them. 

I am ok with a dog I can tell, "SAY HELLO" and they will move forward and sniff the offered hand and the move away. But if that same dog will crawl up my back or lunge and bark at a bicycle or running child -- that dog I would have to be hyper-vigilent with at all times, making sure no small child materializes out of the blue and rushes him. _That dog_ I could not sit outside at a starbucks having a coffee and giving my dog free access to people passing by. 

So yeah, I would be far happier with a dog that loved being petted by strangers and comfortable in their presence, than a dog so "protective" that I have to spend most of my energy protecting everyone around him.


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## Jack's Dad

:thumbup: Agree 100%.


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## codmaster

Selzer - very well said!


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## jetscarbie

> In the last couple of years, they stopped adding grandfather clauses into breed bans.


What does that mean?

I 100% agree with the above posts but on the flip side....I really, really want to kick strange people that just approach my dog. Or they just let their kids run up to my dogs.


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## selzer

jetscarbie said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> I 100% agree with the above posts but on the flip side....I really, really want to kick strange people that just approach my dog. Or they just let their kids run up to my dogs.


Well, it used to be when they made a law, like no chickens allowed within the village limits, they would grandfather in existing pets/property. So you could continue to own the chickens you had, but after they go, no more chickens on the property. 

Occasionally, if you bought your property before there was any law, you could own a horse or chickens, but when the house was sold, the new owner would not be able to.

So when they started putting limit laws on people and breed bans, they used to grandfather in existing animals. Because they used to realize that people loved their pets. But now they do not care. And even if you bought your dog legally, and it was legal to own that dog when you bought it, and you and your dog have followed every anal dog law they put forth, they can change the law tomorrow to say that it is no longer legal for you to own your pet.


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## wyominggrandma

The "bad dog syndrome"is getting worse and worse. I really enjoy this forum, but do have issues with giving so many excuses and reasons why a persons dog is allowed to bite. We have a breed that seems to be getting more aggressive and then people forgive these bites and attacks because the dog was "reactive, kids approached, person walked by, another dog looked at it wrong" and many many more. I have been in dogs for over 40 years, with many different breeds and have never seen so many reasons to let a dog go on biting. Sure, there are some on here that agree with me, but the vast majority say" get a trainer or behaviorist" to fix the problem. Folks some problems can't be fixed and to lighten the major problem with excuses just makes it worse. Okay, so person gets a behaviorist or trainer, said behaviorist or trainer says "this dog is red line aggressive and is not a dog that should be in public, maybe even euthanized". So what happens? The person comes back on the list to say" the trainer//behaviorist is not good and told me to put my dog to sleep or to never take it out in public" etc. And then the folks say" oh you are right, poor thing find another trainer".
Usually when someones posts that their dog has bitten, they don't tell the whole story. Oh, it was just a tiny nip, it didn't really break the skin, yadda yadda. And then the "oh get a trainer and things will be peachy keen". No, nobody is going to come on board and say" my dog just attacked a child and literally tore his face off, what do I do? They don't want to be told, the dog is dangerous, you are unable to really accept the dangerous dog that you own and it has now attacked this many times, euthanize the dog". They want their hands held and for someone to tell them" its okay, it had a reason to bite, here is the miracle cure, we are so sorry for you.
We choose to own a dog, we choose to own a breed of dog and it is everyone's responsibility to control that dog for their family and the public. If you want to own a macho protective biting dog, then don't pretend you don't have one. If it makes you feel good that your dog will bite someone walking down the street, or your own wife or family, don't hide behind" what do I do". Some people want to have a mean dangerous dog but don't want the responsibility that goes along with it. 
If you have a biting dog, face the truth. The dog across the street, the little kid out riding his bike, the man that walked past your dog on the sidewalk did not give your dog a reason to bite, its temperament or training or lack of did. You allowed your dog to bite,nobody else did. 
I have been told, because my GSD loves everyone, goes to anyone for petting, plays with other dogs, loves kids, etc that I should have gotten a golden retriever instead of a GSD... I have to say that is so stupid. I know a GSD is supposed to be aloof to strangers, and that is great and fine, but that is not how the world is now. When the standard was written, the world was not so full of sue happy people. I would rather have a GSD that likes people and is not aloof, than one that I have to hide in the back room because it will bite kids, or lock in a crate because I have friends over or not be able to walk down the street without worrying about her biting someone or something. Having and keeping a vicious dog, especially a GSD that people are really starting to show hate for is not the type of dog I want to have. Does she fit the standard, maybe not because she actually likes people, but at least I don't have to worry about her biting someone.
A dog should not bite a human. Not one time. I can't imagine thinking its okay, or making excuses for it.


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## jetscarbie

Selzer....Oh wow! Thanks for explaining.


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## selzer

And it makes sense. Say you buy a house with a small barn, there is no ordinance against keeping a critter within the village limits, the house has an acre and a half, and you own a horse. So you purchased that property in order that you could bring your horse, or buy a horse while you live there. Otherwise, you would have gone elsewhere. 

But the council suddenly decides, due to roosters giving wake up calls, or the police having to chase down a pig in the graveyard (happened here) or people having near misses with horses in the road, people complaining about road apples. 

They decide that they no longer want farm animals in town, and they put forth a law. 

Well suddenly your property value to you goes down to nothing because the main reason you bought this house was so you could have your horse.


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## martemchik

I don't know if I'm being ignorant but I don't think you can get angry at people wanting to pet your dog. If you are out in public, at a place that there aren't dogs in general, it is almost assumed that your dog is nice and stable. I'm not talking about walking your dog on leash in a park or around your neighborhood, but at a store/starbucks/anywhere it would be "strange" to see a dog. I would assume you have a very friendly animal and an amazingly behaved dog, so I wouldn't expect someone to ask to pet the dog. Would I prefer they did? Absolutely, but you can't expect that.


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## selzer

Sometimes people minimize their dog's issue. 

When finding a trainer for Dubya -- at a year of age, Dubya starte barking at other dogs and lunging toward them -- well I wanted the trainer to have the full scope of the problem, so I very specifically described the behavior to her over the phone. 

Well, she had probably had heard this song and dance before. She translated, "My immature German Shepherd Dog has begun barking and lunging toward other dogs" as "My viscious German Shepherd dog has bitten three people already and has killed a small dog." She was pretty much a flake, and the only thing I ever did with her to work on Dubya's dog issue was to put a halti on the dog and walk past her goose. 

I think on the one hand we need to realize that there IS a tendancy for people to intentionally or unintentionally minimize their dog's behavior. There is also the possibility that people are being brutally honest about there dog here to get the best advice. There is no way to separate the two.


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## CaliBoy

Duncan:

Thank you for coming on the forum and for posting your question. And thank you for your patience in sifting through the answers. I agree with you that many responses were simply very negative and emotional. That happens in these forums, and what is more, people add to their lecturing and tongue wagging a whole host of rationalizations for their bad manners. You have been wise and gentlemanly to discern these things, and to ignore people who should take medicine for mental distress before they go on the internet.

As far as your 14 year old daughter being restrained by the woman, and then her husband showing up to your door and yelling at her and threatening her, I can assure you that the sanguine responses here are not the typical American reactions. In most places of the U.S., laying a hand on a minor girl and attempting to detain her will get you immediately arrested and charged. The alleged dog nip will be of no concern to an officer who is responding to a 911 from a teenage girl claiming assault. The adult is going to get handcuffed and will leave in the patrol car.

Yes, the husband had good reason to be angry. But you don't follow a minor girl onto her property and threaten her at the door of her house. In the rural areas, such as where I live, a 14 year old girl who is home alone, is left alone, if you know what is good for you and you want to get off the property alive. And when her father gets home and finds out what you have done, you will wish that all you had to deal with was a dog bite when he gets through with you.


----------



## jetscarbie

martemchik said:


> I don't know if I'm being ignorant but I don't think you can get angry at people wanting to pet your dog. If you are out in public, at a place that there aren't dogs in general, it is almost assumed that your dog is nice and stable. I'm not talking about walking your dog on leash in a park or around your neighborhood, but at a store/starbucks/anywhere it would be "strange" to see a dog. I would assume you have a very friendly animal and an amazingly behaved dog, so I wouldn't expect someone to ask to pet the dog. Would I prefer they did? Absolutely, but you can't expect that.


 
I absolutely see where you are coming from.

Personally, I don't approach strange people's dogs. I have taught my kids the same thing. Sure, not everybody follows the same thinking.

I was the same with my girls when they were tiny babies. I always hated it when strangers invaded my personal space, touching my babies.

That's just me though.


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## wyominggrandma

Exactly, if you go to public places with your dog, expect folks to just walk up and pet it. That is the way people think... Yes, would be nice if they ask, but most don't. Holly wanted to jump up when people pet her, and then a person/child would get scared. But, I have always trained her to sit politely when approached by someone so they can pet her without her jumping. Now I am not going to let some idiot approach with their little poopsie or even another dog because I don't have a clue how their dog will react. Most dogs don't want to be make friends with a dog dragging his owner down the isle, gagging and slobbering, but still your dog in a public place should not be aggressive in this same scenerio. I will ask people not to bring poopsie to see my dog at that point. 
I have shown dogs professionally for years and years and it never fails that someone will bring their dog to watch the other dogs at the show. Even though you are not supposed to bring unentered dogs on the show grounds, here they come, usually with a rope, a zillion dog tags jangling, and the dog frantic to approach other dogs. You have to be able to control your dog during showing and around the rings. Your dog can't growl or try to attach another dog, or will be excused from the show grounds. That is another reason my dogs have always been trained and expected to allow strangers approach them and be around other dogs and still pay attention to me, judges are strangers, ring stewards are strangers and other dogs are strangers. They learn from a young age that this is how things are and what to expect, they learn to trust me to not let anything bad happen to them, therefore they do not have to feel they need to defend themselves or me, I will take care of them.


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> I don't know if I'm being ignorant but I don't think you can get angry at people wanting to pet your dog. If you are out in public, at a place that there aren't dogs in general, it is almost assumed that your dog is nice and stable. I'm not talking about walking your dog on leash in a park or around your neighborhood, but at a store/starbucks/anywhere it would be "strange" to see a dog. I would assume you have a very friendly animal and an amazingly behaved dog, so I wouldn't expect someone to ask to pet the dog. Would I prefer they did? Absolutely, but you can't expect that.


But this is a perception people should lose right away. You can take your cute puppy everywhere with you, and one day he may decide he no longer likes people. The only way to work through this is to get out there and do more socialization with the dog, until he comes to his senses again. I do not mean force the dog on people, but expose the dog to people at a level below his threshold so that he will not react. Can he manage someone rushing over and putting out a hand to pet him? No way! But as he gets more relaxed with them in general, the distance can be reduced. 

You cannot socialize a dog in your home and back yard. Sorry. That is on your dog's familiar turf, it is a whole other ball game out and about. 

And what about rescue dogs. They do not ALL have issues. But they are mostly coming out of situations where training and socializing was not a priority. When you let this six year old dog into your life, it was not understood that he would have to stay in your home or in your backyard forever. You can socialize an older dog. 

A dog out in public should not be out of control, dragging the person down the street, in front of cars, to get to people or other dogs. But it may not be 100% social yet. 

No one should pet ANY dog regardless to breed or size without asking its owner.


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## wyominggrandma

The problem with the OP's first post and why so many people, including me acted so alarmed that he was more upset because the man follwed his daughter home. He did not explain, until much later that the man tried to get in his house after the daughter, he never said the woman, until much later, tried to physically hold his daughter. Of course he was upset as he should have been with the man. Certainly it was wrong. But at first it sounded as if the man followed his daughter home on the street and was yelling at her, but he never said he tried to get into my home. If he had, I am sure all of us would have understood his anger.But, he did make it sound like "hey, my dog has bit three people, but I let my 14 yr old daughter walk him and he bit the wife and the man followed her home". Not so much worried about the dog bites, more about the man. With the second scenerio he wrote pages later,with explanations about letting the dog off lead, no muzzle, etc it made more sense.


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## wyominggrandma

You are right Selzer, people should stop acting that way, however the general public still believe in Rin Tin Tin and Lassie and figure all dogs love everyone.
Yes, dogs need socializing at a low level when they decide to not like people or whatever. Socializing on home turf doesn't do it. However, most of the time, the public is not aware that your dog is being socialized for a specific reason and therefore the typical: its here at petsmart or wherever and so I can pet it". My thoughts on this: if you are socializing your dog and in a public place and do not want strangers to approach and pet your dog, why not have the dog wear a sign that say" dog in training, please do not approach"... Doesn't have to be big, but something to slip on the collar or even on its back like a seeing eye dog wears and that way people will see it and most will respect it. I am not talking about a dog that is dangerous, but a dog in the middle of the "boogyman is going to get me" stage. Make a blanket, put it on your dogs back and then go into public.


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## selzer

CaliBoy said:


> Duncan:
> 
> Thank you for coming on the forum and for posting your question. And thank you for your patience in sifting through the answers. I agree with you that many responses were simply very negative and emotional. That happens in these forums, and what is more, people add to their lecturing and tongue wagging a whole host of rationalizations for their bad manners. You have been wise and gentlemanly to discern these things, and to ignore people who should take medicine for mental distress before they go on the internet.
> 
> As far as your 14 year old daughter being restrained by the woman, and then her husband showing up to your door and yelling at her and threatening her, I can assure you that the sanguine responses here are not the typical American reactions. In most places of the U.S., laying a hand on a minor girl and attempting to detain her will get you immediately arrested and charged. The alleged dog nip will be of no concern to an officer who is responding to a 911 from a teenage girl claiming assault. The adult is going to get handcuffed and will leave in the patrol car.
> 
> Yes, the husband had good reason to be angry. But you don't follow a minor girl onto her property and threaten her at the door of her house. In the rural areas, such as where I live, a 14 year old girl who is home alone, is left alone, if you know what is good for you and you want to get off the property alive. And when her father gets home and finds out what you have done, you will wish that all you had to deal with was a dog bite when he gets through with you.


Following is the original post that so many people responded to. Could you point out where in this post there was any mention of the girl be physically assaulted, yelled at, attempt at restraint? 

I always love it when someone climbs onto a high horse to admonish everyone else for being on a high horse. 

"Hi All,

We have a 3 yr old neutered male GSD. He is generally very well behaved, he walks to heel well [I rarely use a lead], will come when called and sit etc. On the lead he does pull and always has to be in front on walks but will rarely leave us by more than 20 yds or so.

At home he is the gentlest fun creature, despite his size and power he never uses his teeth or shows any aggression to famly members or visitors. He is very vocal towards strangers at the door and I have little doubt that he would have a go should someone try to get in. He is very protective towards my wife and daughter, if I were to playfight with them he gets upset and jumps up [something he never does normally!] or will come between us. He doesn't attemt to bite me but just looks a bit unhappy and asks me to stop!

However on 3 occasions my dog has nipped people whilst out walking. I have no idea what triggers these situations. He just seems to be unhappy with some people, maybe they get too close? But each time he has given them a nip on the buttocks, its almost a warning from him. These are not full on attacks and he doesn't give a warning growl before he does it. The odd thing is thats its always from behind, when any minor perceived threat is over.

I am extremelely concerned now because it happened again yesterday. *My 14 yo daughter had taken him out and he nipped a lady. her husband became very aggressive and threatening and followed my daughter home.*

[I haven't yet had the pleasure of meeting this 'gentleman' but we will be having a conversation about *his inappropriate behaviour!!*]

I would be very grateful for any advice on my dogs behaviour, i know we could muzzle him but I really don't want to!

Best

Dunc"


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## martemchik

And that kind of socializing can be done at a park or somewhere where dogs are expected to be. If you're bringing your not so friendly dog to a store or a shop you are saying its safe. If I see a dog inside a store I think its probably a service dog, and a very well behaved dog. That is the public perception of a dog that goes everywhere with its owner. If you need to socialize, do it in a more controlled environment, and if your dog is already to that point where it "doesn't like people" it shouldn't be in a store for any reason. Socialize somewhere else, its as simple as that. Like Wyominggrandma said, once a dog hits that point, its almost impossible to bring it back and make it the friendly, golden retriever you always wanted. Can you probably get that dog to be in public? Absolutely, but just sitting next to you while you're not paying attention? I wouldn't risk it.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> You are right Selzer, people should stop acting that way, however the general public still believe in Rin Tin Tin and Lassie and figure all dogs love everyone.
> Yes, dogs need socializing at a low level when they decide to not like people or whatever. Socializing on home turf doesn't do it. However, most of the time, the public is not aware that your dog is being socialized for a specific reason and therefore the typical: its here at petsmart or wherever and so I can pet it". My thoughts on this: if you are socializing your dog and in a public place and do not want strangers to approach and pet your dog, why not have the dog wear a sign that say" dog in training, please do not approach"... Doesn't have to be big, but something to slip on the collar or even on its back like a seeing eye dog wears and that way people will see it and most will respect it. I am not talking about a dog that is dangerous, but a dog in the middle of the "boogyman is going to get me" stage. Make a blanket, put it on your dogs back and then go into public.


Because little children can't read. Adults are stupid and think that all dogs love them. If you dog is not rock solid, you have to be hyper-vigilent, there is no way around it. I agree that there ARE people out there that are not going to respect the rule of etticate to ask before touching someone's dog, but if every dog owner out there, intercepted every person who tried to pet without asking and told them, "Sorry, you should ask before petting any dog." Maybe we would get somewhere.


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## wyominggrandma

Its funny, that is the norm at dog shows. We would be getting dogs ready to go into the ring, hours of grooming and 90% of the people would approach and they or their kids would ask" may I pet your dog" We would either say" please wait until they are done showing, or if a breed without much grooming involved, say "sure".
When people or kids would run up and reach out to pet the dogs, again, we would say" please wait until after the show ring, then you can pet the dog" and have no issues at all.
But, it seems when in a public place it is assumed the dog is friendly and therefore approachable. How to fix it? Who knows, except to continue to either say yes or no to your dog being petted. Maybe eventually the public will learn to ask first, pet later.


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## Jack's Dad

Wyominggrandma:
I'm with you on your recent posts. Especially about the excuses. The one I like is it's not the dogs fault. Well duh. Of course it's not the dogs fault. It could be from lousy breeding (weak nerve or temperament) or lack of socialization. Or any number of other reasons. 
It isn't the dogs fault. It is the responsibility of the owners to take care of the problem however it came about. 
People have greater rights than dogs whether some like it or not. We GSD owners already are having problems with homeowners insurance. I do worry about breed bans.
You said and I think Carmen said something to the effect that the agressive dog situation is getting worse and I agree. I was told on another thread that the agressive dog posts are coming from the minority of folks on the forum who are having a problem and all the people who are not having problems (the majority) don't post to say how well behaved their dogs are. Maybe, but I see this out here in the real world not just from posts on this forum.


----------



## debbiebrown

i am sure you understand the seriousness of letting your dog run loose at this point.............owning unstable fear aggressive dogs takes a huge amount of responsibility and constantly being aware of the inviroment etc.......by letting that type of dog run loose your setting him up for failure and setting yourself up for a law suit..............be happy you haven't had that yet...........take this incident seriously and turn this into some positive training and get professional assistance...........


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## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> Because little children can't read. Adults are stupid and think that all dogs love them. If you dog is not rock solid, you have to be hyper-vigilent, there is no way around it. I agree that there ARE people out there that are not going to respect the rule of etticate to ask before touching someone's dog, but if every dog owner out there, intercepted every person who tried to pet without asking and told them, "Sorry, you should ask before petting any dog." Maybe we would get somewhere.


Yes.


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> And that kind of socializing can be done at a park or somewhere where dogs are expected to be. If you're bringing your not so friendly dog to a store or a shop you are saying its safe. If I see a dog inside a store I think its probably a service dog, and a very well behaved dog. That is the public perception of a dog that goes everywhere with its owner. If you need to socialize, do it in a more controlled environment, and if your dog is already to that point where it "doesn't like people" it shouldn't be in a store for any reason. Socialize somewhere else, its as simple as that. Like Wyominggrandma said, once a dog hits that point, its almost impossible to bring it back and make it the friendly, golden retriever you always wanted. Can you probably get that dog to be in public? Absolutely, but just sitting next to you while you're not paying attention? I wouldn't risk it.


You should socialize a dog everywhere you can. If you see a dog inside a shop, and you are thinking service dog -- no way should you walk up and pet it, its working. 

You really cannot completely socialize a dog in a controlled environment, you need to take it out into the real world. 

It IS pretty simple. Think of my dog as if it was my arm or my leg. Are you going to pet my arm or my leg. Then don't pet my dog. It is rude. It is NOT rude to ask. Think of it as if it is a two year old. They are so cute. Will their parents want you to pet them? People do, not so much any more, more's the pity. People used to ruffle a child's hair, etc. Now people don't touch other people's children. Pregnant ladies unite, how many think rubbing, patting, petting the unborn child by total strangers is obnoxious and rude? That is how you should think about petting my dog. What about your Harley? Yeah, I always wanted one of that. Should I go up and stroke it? What about your horse? Should I go and pet his muzzle because I like horses? Horses can bite and kick. 

What is it about dogs that gives strangers a free pass to tease them, pet them, bark at them, correct them? 

I am feeling a bit irritable today, maybe I need my back arrow key again..... Nah, what the ? Submit Reply


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## martemchik

It is interesting that a poster mentioned earlier that there is "no excuse" for a grown man to put his hands on a teenage girl and that guy would be slapped with assault charges in seconds and yet we can find thousands of excuses for dogs nipping/biting (assaulting) a person.

Lol and selzer I'm not arguing with you that people should ask and you should socialize everywhere you can, but you really need to understand the dog and understand where that dog hits his limit. I would also never touch a service dog, but that is the perception that a dog inside a store gives off.


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## wyominggrandma

Its funny Jacks' Dad, but on another thread when I came on and said how well my girl behaved,how she loved everyone, etc I was told by a couple of knowit all on this forum that I should have gotten a Golden retriever and not a GSD that was not acting according to the standard. They were rude about it.
How sad that it is not okay to have a well behaved, trained, sweet temperament GSD, but is okay and actually told many excuses why it is okay for your GSD to bite and attack by these same people, from puppy age to adult age.


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## jetscarbie

I guess I'm a little different...maybe.

I believe in the "everybody is new" at some point. At some point, even the best breeders/owners/trainers started new. At some point, younger generations have to learn so maybe one day they will be interested enough to carry the knowledge and build on it.

I got my first GSD.....and I admit. I didn't know anything about them. I knew that my dog wasn't acting just right. I cared enough to want to know how to change it. That led me here....which in turn led me to many other threads of advice. I didn't know about good quality food and bloat symptoms. One simple problem with my dog.....led to a wealth of knowledge.

I think most owners care. That's why they take the time to post their concerns. Sometimes it really is hard to "get" what they are really saying in an internet forum. Who's knows if the truth is being told or portions of the story are omitted? People don't want to think they are bad owners. I think people forget sometimes.......most pet owners are new at this. Maybe they are trying to do everything right...they just don't know how.

Maybe I'm a bad owner. I probably don't do everything just right.

To the OP....I wish you the best of luck. :hug:


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## Jack's Dad

wyominggrandma said:


> Its funny Jacks' Dad, but on another thread when I came on and said how well my girl behaved,how she loved everyone, etc I was told by a couple of knowit all on this forum that I should have gotten a Golden retriever and not a GSD that was not acting according to the standard. They were rude about it.
> How sad that it is not okay to have a well behaved, trained, sweet temperament GSD, but is okay and actually told many excuses why it is okay for your GSD to bite and attack by these same people, from puppy age to adult age.


Yeah, I know. I think it is a serious topic and one of my major pet peeves. I tried a thread but it didn't go far. 

Selzer your respected and good with words maybe you can start a thread that takes this to a specific topic because it's not just about this OP. It's bigger than one person.


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## selzer

wyominggrandma said:


> Its funny Jacks' Dad, but on another thread when I came on and said how well my girl behaved,how she loved everyone, etc I was told by a couple of knowit all on this forum that I should have gotten a Golden retriever and not a GSD that was not acting according to the standard. They were rude about it.
> How sad that it is not okay to have a well behaved, trained, sweet temperament GSD, but is okay and actually told many excuses why it is okay for your GSD to bite and attack by these same people, from puppy age to adult age.


Because it is not the dog's fault, because of poor breeding and poor ownership, a dog is what it is, I do not like the idea of putting a dog down as a first resort. If someone ignores all the danger signs and the bite is serious, unprovoked, and against a child -- yeah, I think they should put the dog down, but the owner should be held criminally responsible and given some type of order not to purchase another dog for a number of years. 

If a person can recognize warning signs in a dog's behavior and can work with a trainer/behaviorist to first manage the dog so no one gets hurt, second train the dog so that a bond is built and there is understanding between dog and owner, and third work on socializing the dog, working on building confidence and reducing the fear the dog has in ordinary situations, so it will be less likely to react, I think that people who claim to love their dogs, they ought to give it a shot. 

Some dogs may NEVER be rock solid, but their owners CAN be rock solid in managing the dog and getting the dog out of situations before it becomes a situation.


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## Zisso

Please know that I have only read part of the posts in this thread. Still I couldn't help but think of this...


> how is the person whose wife just got bitten to
> know that there is not more attack to come?


One would think that following the child who has been walking the dog that just bit or nipped said wife in the butt would warrant more bites/nips from said fear biter in the long run. I know that my girl who is a nipper would definitely not be easily turned off if we were to be followed by anyone. If she was in a fear aggressive state or if she was in a protective state of mine, either way, it would be difficult to stop/control her if we were being pursued as it sounds this 14 yr old girl was. 

My girl always nipped from behind and as soon as she did it the 1st time I began taking appropriate measures to prevent it and manage her behavior properly. I started out by getting into some serious training. I socialized her as I knew she had not been socialized prior to her coming to me. I continue to work with her to this day, and as we work I continue to manage her behavior. I do not let my guard down, because I fear that it would be her chance to fall back on old habits. On the other hand, she does wonderfully in obedience and has surpassed my expectations. BUT it has taken a lot of hard work and a lot of patience on my part. Today she is still what I call my 'wild child' but she is much better than when I first brought her home at 16 months. One place I take her is Home Depot. I got an orange vest for her, and sewed on a patch that says Do Not Pet. When we are there, or PetSmart or anywhere else, while she is wearing the vest, people steer clear of us for which I am grateful. That gives me the ability to pick and choose who she greets and how she does it, as well as making certain it is a safe encounter. I also use the Halti on her which calms her down. The very first time I took her to HD I accidentally got the leash connected to only the halti. We had walked halfway through the store when I decided to check it and discovered my mistake, yet she had walked so clamly in that first little bit that I was truly proud of her. She will lay at my feet when we stop to chat and will happily let people I pick to pet her. She has also let kids pet her and licked their hands. However, I still do not let my guard down in any scenario. One of her triggers is fast moving objects and that generally translates to Kids, joggers, skateboarders, bicyclers, squirrels, little dogs, cats etc. It is MY responsibility to make sure that the public is safe when I have her out and about and I take that very seriously!



> Some dogs may NEVER be rock solid, but their owners CAN be rock solid in managing the dog and getting the dog out of situations before it becomes a situation.]


 Well said!!

I hope that you find a way to manage your dog and that you will also keep your guard up when working him around different scenarios. Wishing you the best of luck and a happy ending to this difficult spot you are faced with.


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## selzer

jetscarbie said:


> I guess I'm a little different...maybe.
> 
> I believe in the "everybody is new" at some point. At some point, even the best breeders/owners/trainers started new. At some point, younger generations have to learn so maybe one day they will be interested enough to carry the knowledge and build on it.
> 
> I got my first GSD.....and I admit. I didn't know anything about them. I knew that my dog wasn't acting just right. I cared enough to want to know how to change it. That led me here....which in turn led me to many other threads of advice. I didn't know about good quality food and bloat symptoms. One simple problem with my dog.....led to a wealth of knowledge.
> 
> I think most owners care. That's why they take the time to post their concerns. Sometimes it really is hard to "get" what they are really saying in an internet forum. Who's knows if the truth is being told or portions of the story are omitted? People don't want to think they are bad owners. I think people forget sometimes.......most pet owners are new at this. Maybe they are trying to do everything right...they just don't know how.
> 
> Maybe I'm a bad owner. I probably don't do everything just right.
> 
> To the OP....I wish you the best of luck. :hug:


You are absolutely right. Sometimes it is hard to step back and think: 'this dude doesn't spend 40 hours a week perusing websites about proper dog ownership.' He may have never considered that this breed has a bad reputation, in fact, he probably got it because of how many wonderful stories he has heard about them. Everyone around the world knows about Pitt Bull bans, but that can't happen to us, these dogs are police dogs, and seeing eye dogs (not so many anymore). 

And some threads you have to start in with, 'I know you love your dog, and you want to be a good owner, but...'

Others seem to be more the, 'Whaaaaaat???? you're feeding your dog LIVE chickens?!?'

Fortunately, most of them fall somewhere in between.


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## wyominggrandma

Zisso, that is great that you are aware of your dogs and her triggers and spend time and more time making sure she is not dangerous in public, to your family, etc.
However, the majority of people are not that caring. So what if their dog bites, it wasn't a bad bite after all. So what if their dog attacks other dogs while loose in a dog park, I have a right to be there too, and if my dog wants to fight other dogs, oh well.
The attitude of a huge amount of dog owners of any breed is that " my dog is my dog and can do what it wants, and to heck with anyone else". They secretly like their dog growling, lunging and snarling at other dogs and strangers cause it shows how tough their dog is and therefore how tough they are.They really don't want to stop their dog from barking and growling because its a "pride" thing. We have more and more people who won't neuter male dogs because of what they read on the internet, but can't and don't control the hormones when they start raging. Don't control the macho attitude of their male dogs, in fact almost relish it cause its "studly". The vast majority of dogs turned into rescues, humane societies and such are unnuetured male and female dogs, but especially male dogs. Once they get past the cute puppy stage, the owner who has read the internet and been told "don't neuter until they are mature, don't do this because they will not be massive male dogs" etc and they don't neuter, but then can't control them. Of course there are plenty of people who can and do control their intact males and I am not talking about them.
Dogs are turned in every day that have attacked and bitten people, little bites or big bites,it doesn't matter. They of course won't tell the rescue or humane society, but they will say they are moving or whatever and the dog is given to another family to be bitten or attacked. Why? Because most folks will not face reality and admit their dog it a biter and won't admit that they are afraid of their dog. So, they give it away to bite again. I would rather see a biter PTS and know where the dog it, than seen it given away to bite again and again until someone is killed or worse.
A biting dog, no matter how small or how big is a liability. Onc liability I won't deal with. I love my dog, but if she bites someone, for any reason, she would be at the vets the same day to be euthanized. Does that make me cold? Maybe to some, but I have my dogs to enjoy and make them a part of my family and enjoy taking them places knowing they are safe and sane. I wouldnt care if its a GSD or a poodle, I won't have a biting dog.. If more people would take this same stand, then the reality of biting dogs, especially GSD would become less, and the public would not be so quick to say" oh my its a GSD, does it bite?". Does that make me a bad dog person? I don't think so, that makes me a person who won't have a walking liability on four legs who might injure someone or worse.


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## carmspack

worst excuses --- it was the herding drive --- he is still a baby -- he was abused --

time to get some good solid temperaments out there 

and some critical thinking , decisive action --- don't stand for it and make excuses -- deal with the dog , correct it , train it give it clear cut parameters --- breeders please , solid temperament 

aloof means to be indifferent , not affected either way , neutral .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wyominggrandma

Well said, especially the aloof explanation. NEUTRAL............


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## CaliBoy

selzer:


> I always love it when someone climbs onto a high horse to admonish everyone else for being on a high horse.


LOL. Yes, I forgot, you only like people getting on their high horse in order to wrap people on the knuckles for not knowing the right way to raise a GSD.  By the way, Duncan was trying to clarify his first post, in between the times people kept pushing his head back underwater.



> I am feeling a bit irritable today


Whew. I'm glad it's just today.


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## martemchik

I don't think this has anything to do with how you raise your dog. That is all your business. There are times on this forum when breeders and more experienced dog people forget that not everyone has had multiple dogs and realized their mistakes. Its about taking responsibility and being responsible with the dog you ended up with, no matter the mistakes you made before. You didn't socialize for the first year of the dogs life? Deal with the issue and start socializing slowly...you have the dog for (god willing) 12 years and have to live through your mistake. The dog doesn't like people? Don't let it off leash...watch it closely...don't put it in a situation where it can fail. Some people come on here and get that advice, they learn from their mistakes, and the OP definately sounds like he has. It's just shocking for a lot of us to hear that it came to this...a third incident.

Put it this way, there was a big deal made over the husband's reaction, who cares? If the dog was controlled...it wouldn't have bit...the husband wouldn't have over reacted and this post would've never happened. There are posters that come on and say "this is what happened...its the first time...why did my dog do this" they get answers of why it might've happened and they try to control it after the first time, I think what really got to people this time was that the dog still has the freedom to continue the behavior after a second incident that led to the third one.


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## carmspack

caliboy or girl , I see you are located in California. The last time I dealt with a person from California there was so much back and forth discussion and her worry about the almost draconian measures they had for aggressive dogs, un neutered dogs , biting dogs. 
That is about the same time that Britain started rounding up pit bulls and lookalikes (lab , lab crosses).

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Dainerra

I'm trying to follow the timeline of the incident according to the OP.

He said that the guy followed her home and was yelling and threatening her, making it sound like the guy was hounding her every step. Then in another post, he said that she was inside the house, the dog was in another room behind a baby gate when the man was yelling at her.

I think it's a case of "my side, his side, and the truth" I'm with Selzer that I wouldn't believe a kid who told me "I live right over there" If I was bitten, heck yes I would have told the girl "Nope, you're not leaving" When she left anyway, then yes either I or someone else would have followed her home. Knowing that I am human and have a temper, yes I probably would have not been able to hold my tongue. 

As I said in another post, 2 wrongs don't make a right. The guy shouldn't have been yelling at the girl. But, since the girl was the one who answered the door and no mention is made of any adults being home to talk to him, she got the brunt of his anger.


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## carmspack

I know Dainerra , I think we need a playbook for this one . I'm not so sure lessons were learned. Reform does not come so easy. Some people feel their dogs and their kids are entitled. Just my gut sense.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer

I think I am for the most part, ok with the OP at this point. He clarified some of his original post and it made more sense why he was so upset. I think the guy was not out to get her, so I think his reaction was a bit extreme, but that is an opinion. And he assures us that he is going to do the right thing, take advice, deal with the problem whatever. 

What my problem is with are the people coming onto the thread to pound people for reacting to a very irritating original post. Kind of a chain reaction. And it happens over and over again here. People post something outrageous and get a reaction, and then the clean up crew comes on and says much worse to the people that reacted to the outrageous post. Really Caliboy, we need to take some type of meds??? We need to get off our high horse? 

The OP states that he lets his dog run loose, off lead, 20 yards ahead of him, and he has bitten 3 people already. Gee I guess I can muzzle him, but I really don't want to. -- That kind of a post SHOULD get a reaction.


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## wyominggrandma

. I even wrote that the OP had a reason to be mad if the man entered his home, but now I have to wonder why, if all this is true, that the police did not arrest the man for trying to enter a home while chasing a 14 year old down the street? Hmm, smells like a coverup if you think about it. I think I was too quick to fall into the " feel sorry for the owner of the dog cause his daughter had a man following her after I read his "new" story. I have to admit, if I got bit by a dog being walked by a 14 year old, or whomever, if I was able , I would be following to make sure where the dog lived, then calling the cops.
Lets face it folks this whole incident stems from the fact the OP has no control over his dog, he has continued to let him go loose 20 yards ahead and then lets a 14 yr old take the dog on a walk where it bites someone else. How can anyone let their dog be out of their IMMEDIATE control without a muzzle when it has bitten, now, three people. Here we go again with the excuses and "it was only a nip" scenerio. Me thinks he likes having a big mean dog that he can walk without a leash or muzzle.
Pity the poor kid who just happens to be walking by the next time he and his dog are out walking


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## Germanshepherdlova

CaliBoy said:


> Duncan:
> 
> As far as your 14 year old daughter being restrained by the woman, and then her husband showing up to your door and yelling at her and threatening her, I can assure you that the sanguine responses here are not the typical American reactions. In most places of the U.S., laying a hand on a minor girl and attempting to detain her will get you immediately arrested and charged. The alleged dog nip will be of no concern to an officer who is responding to a 911 from a teenage girl claiming assault. The adult is going to get handcuffed and will leave in the patrol car.
> 
> Yes, the husband had good reason to be angry. But you don't follow a minor girl onto her property and threaten her at the door of her house. In the rural areas, such as where I live, a 14 year old girl who is home alone, is left alone, if you know what is good for you and you want to get off the property alive. And when her father gets home and finds out what you have done, you will wish that all you had to deal with was a dog bite when he gets through with you.


I think it was irresponsible to not take precautions with this dog, and the child should not have been walking him. I can understand the husband of the bite victim following the girl home so that he could direct the police to the right home but this man had NO right to touch this girl. He is lucky that the dog didn't attack him for that, my dog would have if someone touched one of my kids. But just the same, I have a 13 year old son, and I don't let him walk the dogs alone.

OP, I hope that you have learned a lesson from all this. Your dog bites for no reason, you have to make sure that he is under your control at all times. Your dog should never be loose outside, he should not be on a long leash, your 14 yr old should not be walking him. Your dog could be removed from your home and put down if he keeps biting without being provoked. Protect your dog and your neighbors by muzzling, and keeping your dog on a leash near you while out and about the neighborhood.


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## debbiebrown

i have a dog that is fear aggressive and unsure, i am one of those responsible people that have worked LONG and HARD to learn to become a good leader for him. i had no fault in his personality and nature, genetically he is this way...............i had him in puppy classes from 12 weeks on and he's 3 years old now, and we have been involved with every possible class, activity, and i am always training with him in Obedience and taking him everywhere...............i control him basically.........its like having a retarded child, you constantly have to watch out for them, never put them in situations you know will be negative...........my dog will never be a confident dog, he is weak genetically, i except that, but i also take full responsibility for him, he has imporved greatly in some areas, but there are some triggers and some things he'll never be comfortable with..........i am the one learning from him and i have sought out what works best for him and will always have to continue with his training and socializing, its like having a 4 month old puppy at 3 years old...........my choice to keep him, and there are times its frustrating, but i have good training resources and professional people to work with............i shutter to think if he had gone to the wrong home, he probably would have gotten himself in trouble and been PTS.........


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## chelle

This thread is like, kicking a dead horse... over and over and over again. Someone start a new thread to piss everyone off please. :help::wild::shocked:


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## CaliBoy

chelle said:


> This thread is like, kicking a dead horse... over and over and over again. Someone start a new thread to piss everyone off please. :help::wild::shocked:


Precisely. 

Sue, reactions are fine. I'm all for being outraged when an owner refuses any help and tells everyone to go bugger themselves. But being outraged when an owner is asking a question and willing to learn, and then hammering the point over and over, is not normal and maybe the poster could use some meds.

Additionally, the comments from all the Miss Cleos, reading his mind, guessing about how much he cares, etc. and being angered about his intentions might be fun psychic guesses about what is inside Duncan's thoughts, but they didn't add anything constructive. They are ad hominem. What I really find hard to understand is the cavalier dismissing of the concerns for his 14 year old. Okay, she is not central to the issue of the dog's problems, but he has a right to be very upset.

Lucy Dog, in the very first response, rightfully gave Duncan a good scolding for all the things you pointed out. Duncan, in the very first acknowledgement of Lucy Dog, was eating humble pie, admitting to his mistakes, promising to clean up his act, and stated that he wanted to understand the dog's behavior. 

But in a forum that seeks to help people, do we need to demonize people like this? I completely agree that our points were made by page 2 and after that we have been beating a dead horse.


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## chelle

CaliBoy said:


> ...Lucy Dog, in the very first response, rightfully gave Duncan a good scolding for all the things you pointed out. Duncan, in the very first acknowledgement of Lucy Dog, was eating humble pie, admitting to his mistakes, promising to clean up his act, and stated that he wanted to understand the dog's behavior.
> 
> But in a forum that seeks to help people, do we need to demonize people like this? I completely agree that our points were made by page 2 and after that we have been beating a dead horse.


Part of this goes back to how the Internet sucks and how badly email/txt/forum responses can be so poorly written/understood. I think Duncan did have a strong dose of humble pie. I appreciated his clarification post. I can also understand how he freaked out feeling his baby was threatened by an adult. Sounds like the adult male did overreact. Yes 14 yrs old is not a baby, but she's still a child. Should she have been walking the dog? No. That's been made clear. That was the adult father's mistake - not the girl's. I'll bet that experience was pretty scary for her. She was in over her head, for sure. 

Naturally dad is going to emotionally react to that. That doesn't make him evil; it makes him an "oblivious" (?) dog owner and FATHER reacting to a scary experience of his daughter, which resulted in a BAD situation. 

Kicking his ass here over and over isn't going to help him, the daughter or the dog. He's come back to try to explain himself after a good scolding (which maybe he did deserve!) ... OK HE REALLY ****ED UP,,,, can we quit kicking his ass now?


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## wyominggrandma

All righty then. Guess everyone has been told how to express their opinions.


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## chelle

wyominggrandma said:


> All righty then. Guess everyone has been told how to express their opinions.


Not trying to do any such thing!!! Just don't see the logic in all the ass kicking. That's all. I doubt Duncan will be back, anyway. If I was him, I wouldn't come back. I just don't understand. Will attacking the guy make him a better dog owner?


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## sparra

The OP hasn't been "attacked".....he was simply told a few home truths and....well .....didn't like it.....


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## chelle

sparra said:


> The OP hasn't been "attacked".....he was simply told a few home truths and....well .....didn't like it.....


Did you read it ALL? If that's your take after reading the entire thing, okay.

Will you feel the same after the board tells YOU, "the truth?" It's a different view on the other side. 

Be careful about posting your true issues...


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## chelle

I am totally amazed at how so many people feel that beating this guy's ass is going to help a single thing. Okay, **** it, I'm stepping away for the night before I get really bitchy.

I AM NOT CONDONING his actions, or more so, his LACK of action... but attacking him won't help him. It won't inform him. It won't do a **** thing but chase him off, thinking, wow, those people are mean. YOU people are the GS EXPERTS - so why turn him OFF from the vast knowledge you have?

Duncan, if you're bothering to follow this stuff -- please get the training/behaviorist, etc in play... I think you will. Please don't be afraid to come back here with your reports! You gotta have a kinda tough skin around here, I've begun to figure out.  

It is bedtime, no more! Shutting up now!!!!!


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## martemchik

Any thread you read will have repeats of the same thing over and over. If you can't take the fact that something you did was "wrong" in the eyes of the majority and that is the reason you won't stick around then don't. If only one person wrote about the fact that he was wrong then he would probably look for more opinions anyways, or start to think that he was correct. It's an online forum, you come here to get un-biased truthful opinions. People here will tell you exactly what they think and if it upsets you what a bunch of strangers say on the internet, then you shouldn't ask in the first place.

It's not like anything that is ever said on this forum is law or will affect someones life. If they don't want it to affect them, it doesn't have to.


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## sparra

chelle said:


> Did you read it ALL? If that's your take after reading the entire thing, okay.
> 
> Will you feel the same after the board tells YOU, "the truth?" It's a different view on the other side.
> 
> Be careful about posting your true issues...


WHOA!!! Yes I sat here and read every post.....and that was just my opinion....sorry....


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## chelle

martemchik said:


> ...If you can't take the fact that something you did was "wrong" in the eyes of the majority and that is the reason you won't stick around then don't.


 I think the OP did come clean.. or tried to... but many just don't want to allow him to. Well hey the fingers of blame point backwards, too. Although so many claim to have perfect dogs who do nothing wrong, that's a load of crap. Biting/nipping strangers and others -- okay that's EXTREME -- but all the perfection on this board is sometimes enough to gag me. 

I AM STEPPING BACK, NO MORE POSTS!!!!!!! GOOD NITE............:shocked::shocked::shocked:


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## chelle

sparra said:


> WHOA!!! Yes I sat here and read every post.....and that was just my opinion....sorry....


I'm also sorry if I came on too strong.. for some reason this post is riling me up... so for the third time and I swear third time is the charm, Bailey's mom is stepping out! Sorry for all the false promises.  Damned addictive forum anyway.


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## dogdragoness

jocoyn said:


> I would have understood if he had seriously injured or killed your dog.


That's a little harsh, dont you think? In the words of Mr. T "I pitty the fool" who does harm to my dogs!



> If you do not fix this the dog will likely be taken from you and PTS. It sounds like you are making excuses and don't want to inconvenience the dog with a muzzle. YOu need to realize that this will only get worse on its own.
> 
> He does sound like a fearful dog and both of you need help to manage this.


This I do agree with, a good trainer needs to be found... Stat!


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## sparra

chelle said:


> I'm also sorry if I came on too strong.. for some reason this post is riling me up... so for the third time and I swear third time is the charm, Bailey's mom is stepping out! Sorry for all the false promises.  Damned addictive forum anyway.


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## wyominggrandma

I never said my dog was perfect, what I said was she does love everyone, dogs and strangers included. I said I was chastized by others on this forum for having a golden retriever temperament in my GSD and that maybe since I wanted such a loving dog, I should have got a golden. What I also said is if MY dog bites a human, she will be PTS. No excuses, no anything. I won't own a biting dog and I strongly believe that a dog should not bite a human, ever.
Oops, I guess I expressed my opinion again. .


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## Jack's Dad

chelle said:


> This thread is like, kicking a dead horse... over and over and over again. Someone start a new thread to piss everyone off please. :help::wild::shocked:


I did but some folks just like this one. I guess it's addicting.


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## Jessiewessie99

carmspack said:


> caliboy or girl , I see you are located in California. The last time I dealt with a person from California there was so much back and forth discussion and her worry about the almost draconian measures they had for aggressive dogs, un neutered dogs , biting dogs.
> That is about the same time that Britain started rounding up pit bulls and lookalikes (lab , lab crosses).
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I hope you don't think all us Californians are like that. Because we are not.

I appreciate all the knowledge you have to share Carmen!


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## carmspack

absolutely not . Just had a very long phone conversation with a very articulate , very engaging , interesting Californian forum member. It was a pleasure.


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## Stella's Mom

ninemaplefarm said:


> Duncan,
> 
> I just wanted to add that I applaud you for coming on the forum seeking advice. Obviously, you recognize that you are unsure how to handle the situation. Please do not take offense at the comments posted but use the information to help your dog. Sounds like you all love him very much and I think you can help him act more appropriate in those situations which cause him stress. I agree to try to find a professional. Not a group class but someone who can work one on one with you.
> 
> So, good for your for seeking help and advice. A professional will really be able to set you on the right track. You could call obedience schools ad ask them for recommendations for you. Good luck and I hope everything works out for you!!


Yes, sometimes posting on this site can be a bit intimidating due to the different levels of expertise and experience with GSD's. I like the way you reached out to Duncan for this concerning matter.

The advice given is very good and if I ever find myself in a situation such as his I will keep in mind all that I have read. Thankfully my dog is secure and confident and I have not had these issues so far. I do always walk on a lead, with a harness and a secondary collar clipped to harness.


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## Good_Karma

debbiebrown said:


> i have a dog that is fear aggressive and unsure, i am one of those responsible people that have worked LONG and HARD to learn to become a good leader for him. i had no fault in his personality and nature, genetically he is this way...............i had him in puppy classes from 12 weeks on and he's 3 years old now, and we have been involved with every possible class, activity, and i am always training with him in Obedience and taking him everywhere...............i control him basically.........its like having a retarded child, you constantly have to watch out for them, never put them in situations you know will be negative...........my dog will never be a confident dog, he is weak genetically, i except that, but i also take full responsibility for him, he has imporved greatly in some areas, but there are some triggers and some things he'll never be comfortable with..........i am the one learning from him and i have sought out what works best for him and will always have to continue with his training and socializing, its like having a 4 month old puppy at 3 years old...........my choice to keep him, and there are times its frustrating, but i have good training resources and professional people to work with............i shutter to think if he had gone to the wrong home, he probably would have gotten himself in trouble and been PTS.........



I can really identify with this. It is a huge challenge to bring a dog like this out into public, but it is the only way to help him. He's not going to get any better stuck at home, and you have to continually test his threshold to expand his comfort zone, or else he is never going to change. I would never dream of bringing Niko into a Home Depot unless I had a spotter, someone to walk in front of us to help keep people at a distance, and keep any wayward kids from darting around a corner into us. BUT, I have been able to walk down a sidewalk a few paces away from strangers. That is major progress from a year ago. I think in a different home, Niko could have been a bite statistic. Of course in a better home, he would probably be a champion conformation dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I like this quote from Lee on another post - I snipped out the start of it. :



wolfstraum said:


> No amount of socializing or training will alter the genetic make up of ANY dog, just make him possibly easier to handle. A sound balanced pup does NOT NEED socialization - it is icing on the cake....an unsound dog needs the structure of the socialization process to instill the parameters for acceptable behavior and interaction.
> 
> 
> Lee


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## codmaster

Can't agree with the proposition that a sound dog needs NO socializing! That idea flies in the face of most of the dog behaviorists that I have ever read or talked to.

Ever see dogs who are kenneled or tied in the back yard for their entire life? Is he suggesting that any "sound" dog could have this done and then come out of it as a 3yo adult and fit right into a family situation with other dogs and little kids?

Maybe I am misinterpreting what he is saying but that is what it sounds like from the quote above. "A "sound" dog needs no socializing".

Maybe I just have never met a "sound" dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Hopefully Lee will come back to explain further - I took that from another thread so if she doesn't it's because I snagged it like that! 

But yes, we have seen dogs who have not had good lives - that we have known for sure - go to foster homes without blinking an eye. 

I posted this in another thread: 

How many of your dogs could...


Sit in a shelter, surrounded by other dogs, maybe in with 7 other dogs in one pen, being barked at, smelling sickness and death after either being dropped off there or being picked up while stray
Get poked and prodded by strangers and have a fake hand coming at them while they are eating and not react
Get tested with other dogs and cats and do well with both
Get thrown into a stranger's car, go to a vet office where they are given the same kind of exams your dogs do, but without a person they know to help them.
Maybe go on a 1 or 2 day transport, being transferred to a new stranger *every hour*, having to potty on a leash, stay overnight in another stranger's house, or another type of transport in a van with 20-30 other strange dogs
Until they land in a foster home probably with other dogs, cats and maybe even kids, get thrown in a tub and then, maybe, they could rest before going on to the next new thing
Any dog that is going to be rescued long distance HAS to be able to do that. Or we can't help them. And you may think a GSD doesn't have to be that accepting - but so many are - I've met hundreds that have been in rescue over the last 8 years! Of course we don't know for sure that just because a dog has been in a shelter, that they had a bad life - even more now with the economy. But we do know from court cases and things like that those who have. 

But definitely not all dogs can do that! And there is a place for socialization! Always - but if something happens to someone where can't for a while, a solid dog can overcome it.


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## PaddyD

OK, so I have an 'unsound' dog. But I want to train him to be 'sound'. He is people aggressive so in order to train him I will take him out in public (even though he weighs 100 pounds and I can't possibly control him) so that he can learn NOT to bite people.
I don't give a flying fig about the potential for people getting hurt because making my dog 'sound' is all that matters.
Does this sound familiar?
People, get your heads out of the sand. Your dog is messed up, keep him home
or put him down. If he is 2, 3, 4 years old and still people aggressive it's nap time.


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## wolfstraum

LOL after reading this forum, I figure truly sound dogs are not as common as dogs with issues......and I stand by that statement....I have heard similar sentiments from from old time breeders and trainers....a sound pup comes out of a crate after a flight from Europe happy, wiggly and has an open temperament...that pup is solid and does not NEED socialized in order to function safely. An unsound or fearful pup needs to be socialized so that it is conditioned to the environment.

Other dogs are not part of "soundness" or stability. Dog parks and play parties are anthomorphization. Your dog needs you and your leadership...they are not children to take to a playground.

I have taken 2 kennel dogs - trained and titled, but not "socialized" as pups as is common here...and made them house dogs as adults. So have MANY people who import adults. My are Basha and Fenja - both LOVE kids, neither was dog aggressive at all, both adapted to life as a pet in the house with no behavior issues or concerns at all....so YES - I have seen it. I believe it....I don't make socialization a career for pups....they don't go to dog parks, they dont go in pet stores ( where who knows what is floating around) just for the sake of going...

Unfortunately too many people do NOT see sound stable pups or dogs regularly - they see dogs with poor confidence, thin nerves, poor nerves, issues galore - and figure that is the norm.


Also took a BY black and silver with some WGR lines on at 7 months who was not on any socialization program as a pup who was a natural ambassador for the breed....

Lee


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

PaddyD said:


> OK, so I have an 'unsound' dog. But I want to train him to be 'sound'. He is people aggressive so in order to train him I will take him out in public (even though he weighs 100 pounds and I can't possibly control him) so that he can learn NOT to bite people.
> I don't give a flying fig about the potential for people getting hurt because making my dog 'sound' is all that matters.
> Does this sound familiar?
> People, get your heads out of the sand. Your dog is messed up, keep him home
> or put him down. *If he is 2, 3, 4 years old and still people aggressive it's nap time*.


I personally believe that depends on the level of aggression, and how much a person is willing to give up to keep their dog. When Sasha first bonded to me she decided to resource guard me, especially when men were involved, and as a result acted aggressively toward people who tried to approach me. Did she ever bite anyone? No. Was she ever given the opportunity? Absolutely not. The first time she started that, barking, growling, hair raised, crap I started working with her on it. She was (to the best of our knowledge) 2 at the time. Had I put her to sleep because of this, I would have missed out on a wonderful dog. 

I totally agree with not making excuses for their behavior. In my mind there was no excuse for my dog trying to intimidate anyone, but there were explanations. She was afraid of men, and thus afraid of men being around me, because she had been beaten. Is it an excuse? No, but I appreciated knowing that because it gave me some sort of place to start in my mind. I made sure she was around the calmest, most non-threatening males in my life when I started working on it with her. I made sure every man I was around with her was a man I could trust, and actually felt warmly toward so that she knew that I wasn't scared. For a while I leashed her every time someone came over until she approached them calmly. I had a friend come over (female as to not set her up to fail--another reason it's good to know the "why"--) and every positive reaction Sasha had got a HUGE reward. I took her out to places I knew there would be people, but not a lot of people, and worked on her ignoring people. Is she perfect? Hardly, but I am not scared to have her around people. I am still very much aware of her when new people come over, but I now trust that she will listen when I say enough, and actually she doesn't react nearly as often. She now goes more off of how I feel, if I feel nervous about someone _then _she sees them as a threat, but for the most part not otherwise. In fact just the other day I had her with my male cousin, who is a pretty big guy, and she was giving him kisses! She's come a long way.

Is that going to be the case for every dog? No. Some dogs should be put down, but I don't think it's fair to make blanket statements like if they're a certain age put them down; don't even try to work it out, it's too late. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks ya know


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## selzer

My dogs get socialized in training classes. That is about it. Dolly could have used more of it. Bear is fine with that once a week session, with five months off in the winter. But they have perfect confidence in me. 

A lot of the problems with dogs is not genetic weak nerves, it is weakness in the handler. If the handler is not confident, the pup will have more trouble. So a lot of the work in socializing a puppy, is actually socializing the owner and building that bond of trust that goes both ways. Case in point: when I take Cujo to the vet he has no trouble whatsoever. When my Dad takes Cujo to the vet, he cowers, and is nervous. My Dad is an x-Christian Scientist and medical buildings and personnel make him nervous. 

An individual who socializes their dog well, will be confident that the dog will behave a certain way in each situation. And the dog probably will. There are dogs that have issues out of the box. But I think there are also a lot of owners who have issues. 

If you take an awesome dog out of the crate from being shipped over, and it has a great temperament, and it can be handled by airport personnel, vets, new owners right out of the box and not be dog aggressive or people aggressive. Hand that dog over to someone with no experience. How many serious over-reactions, tightening up on the lead, yanking the dog out of a perfectly harmless situation, before you have a dog that becomes a bit skittish? 

An experienced trainer can take one of the participants dog's and get the dog to demo something it has never done, because of the body language, the hand signal, the confidence, etc. The handler has trouble getting the dog to do the same thing. 

An experienced dog-person, can take their dog out of the kennel, take it to classes, and then take it to a trial, and by-pass all the socialization that so many people spend so much time on. But selling that same puppy, the new owners, might keep the pup inside the home and yard, and have problems when they have to take the dog out to go the vet or whatever. 

Weak nerves on the dogs part, are a definite issue, but there are also serious handler problems that can make a good dog act poorly.


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## chelle

selzer said:


> My dogs get socialized in training classes. That is about it. Dolly could have used more of it. Bear is fine with that once a week session, with five months off in the winter. But they have perfect confidence in me.
> 
> A lot of the problems with dogs is not genetic weak nerves, it is weakness in the handler. If the handler is not confident, the pup will have more trouble. So a lot of the work in socializing a puppy, is actually socializing the owner and building that bond of trust that goes both ways. Case in point: when I take Cujo to the vet he has no trouble whatsoever. When my Dad takes Cujo to the vet, he cowers, and is nervous. My Dad is an x-Christian Scientist and medical buildings and personnel make him nervous.
> 
> An individual who socializes their dog well, will be confident that the dog will behave a certain way in each situation. And the dog probably will. There are dogs that have issues out of the box. But I think there are also a lot of owners who have issues.
> 
> If you take an awesome dog out of the crate from being shipped over, and it has a great temperament, and it can be handled by airport personnel, vets, new owners right out of the box and not be dog aggressive or people aggressive. Hand that dog over to someone with no experience. How many serious over-reactions, tightening up on the lead, yanking the dog out of a perfectly harmless situation, before you have a dog that becomes a bit skittish?
> 
> An experienced trainer can take one of the participants dog's and get the dog to demo something it has never done, because of the body language, the hand signal, the confidence, etc. The handler has trouble getting the dog to do the same thing.
> 
> An experienced dog-person, can take their dog out of the kennel, take it to classes, and then take it to a trial, and by-pass all the socialization that so many people spend so much time on. But selling that same puppy, the new owners, might keep the pup inside the home and yard, and have problems when they have to take the dog out to go the vet or whatever.
> 
> Weak nerves on the dogs part, are a definite issue, but there are also serious handler problems that can make a good dog act poorly.


Awesome post; couldn't agree more. The confidence of the handler. My bf and I, dealing with similar situations, get completely different results. He is very nervous in off-leash situations. I am not. My dogs and I have walked trails and areas many times, so I'm very confident and we have no troubles to speak of. (need to recall them sometimes, when they're distracted by a new smell, etc.) But the bf, if he goes, is such a nervous wreck that you can literally feel his tension and the dogs don't act the same at all. The bf just can't "not" feel this way, so I don't invite him on our excursions anymore.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Anyone care to join me in internet forum rehab?


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