# There is no such thing as an alpha dog or wolf.



## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

There is no such alpha or omega in a pack. A wild pack of wolves consists of sire, dam, pups of any age. There is no fighting for leadership at all. The parents may correct behaviors but no one fights for leadership. The idea was from some guy who studied wolves in captivity. He eventually rescinded his entire writing about packs. There is no one left who believes in alphas.
People cannot BE an alpha, they can be either owner of the pack, mother of the pack.There is little else to be; dogs and wolves, or coyotes know the difference between human and dog, wolf or coyote. They are not stupid animals, we know this. Some are much smarter and the more you work with the dog the greater becomes his/her vocabulary. They are very intelligent but even at home you have a 'pack' of dogs that never would have formed on their own. So they just play follow the leader who happens to be he who feeds & trains the pack.

First article is about Rudolph Schenkel who wrote the earliest ideas about alphas then reneged.








Why everything you know about wolf packs is wrong


The alpha wolf is a figure that looms large in our imagination. The notion of a supreme pack leader who fought his way to dominance and reigns superior to the other wolves in his pack informs both our fiction and is how many people understand wolf behavior. But the alpha wolf doesn't exist—at...




io9.gizmodo.com


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Good article, and a good point to make. No such thing as an alpha, so stop trying to dominate your dog and start trying to be a team!


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

I have been saying this for 20 yrs without any back up links or sites. I have been validated! 😁


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I don't bother with the Alpha argument anymore. There is always some sort of leadership / follower organization in a group. It can be strict or fluid but it is there. I may not be pack leader but I am the benevolent dictator, or she who must be obeyed. Then my younger gal-dog gives my big-boy first choice over games and involvement. If I announce that it is her turn to interact with me, she has the annoying habit of looking at my big-boy first to see how he thinks about it. He, honestly, is fine with it. So I may think I am the leader but evidently in her eyes I share that role with my other dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Actually wolves have a definite hierarchy. It just isn't quite the way most folks think it is.
Domestic dogs gone feral live in loose gangs not cohesive packs, which likely indicates they aren't pack animals.
With regards to alpha, beta, etc they absolutely exist. What we by and large get wrong is what that really means and what it looks like. And that we cannot be any of them. Lol.
Female wolves, and likely dogs, are born into positions. Male are but not to the same extent. Males can move up or down a position. Females don't. 
Females rule and they "appoint" their partner. So mom rules, Dad's the hired muscle.
Alphas don't bluster and swagger. There is no need. Beyond that, yes wolf packs are familial units.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> *There is no such alpha or omega in a pack.* A wild pack of wolves consists of sire, dam, pups of any age. There is no fighting for leadership at all. The parents may correct behaviors but no one fights for leadership. The idea was from some guy who studied wolves in captivity. He eventually rescinded his entire writing about packs. There is no one left who believes in alphas.
> People cannot BE an alpha, they can be either owner of the pack, mother of the pack.There is little else to be; dogs and wolves, or coyotes know the difference between human and dog, wolf or coyote. They are not stupid animals, we know this. Some are much smarter and the more you work with the dog the greater becomes his/her vocabulary. They are very intelligent but even at home you have a 'pack' of dogs that never would have formed on their own. *So they just play follow the leader who happens to be he who feeds & trains the pack.*





> So they just play *follow the leader* who happens to be he who feeds & trains the pack.


Sounds like you contradicted yourself.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

jakubnovotny said:


> Sounds like you contradicted yourself.


Might I suggest some further reading before you form your final opinion? The Wolf: The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species by L. David Mech published by the University of Minnesota Press. The author is a wildlife biologist for the U S Dept. of the Interior and a noted expert on wolves. The book is a compendium of years of scientific study of wolves in the wild, is extremely detailed and is a bit of a dry read as it resembles a thesis.

You will find that what Sabis says holds much truth.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

pam said:


> Might I suggest some further reading before you form your final opinion? The Wolf: The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species by L. David Mech published by the University of Minnesota Press. The author is a wildlife biologist for the U S Dept. of the Interior and a noted expert on wolves. The book is a compendium of years of scientific study of wolves in the wild, is extremely detailed and is a bit of a dry read as it resembles a thesis.
> 
> You will find that what Sabis says holds much truth.


What are you talking about lol ?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Discussion without insulting others for having different opinions is not optional.
MOD WARNING


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I spent some of my misspent youth in northern BC, and up in Nahanni as well as down in Yellowstone later on for the purpose of tracking and monitoring wolves. My observations are based on time spent observing. I'm not that bright, so...
I can state that artificially built packs function entirely different.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Actually wolves have a definite hierarchy. It just isn't quite the way most folks think it is.
> Domestic dogs gone feral live in loose gangs not cohesive packs, which likely indicates they aren't pack animals.
> *With regards to alpha, beta, etc they absolutely exist. What we by and large get wrong is what that really means and what it looks like. And that we cannot be any of them. Lol.*
> Female wolves, and likely dogs, are born into positions. Male are but not to the same extent. Males can move up or down a position. Females don't.
> ...


Are you suggesting humans can't be leaders and followers?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Any animal that live in groups has some sort of social structure. Some are leaders, some are followers. Totally agree with Sabis - it just doesn't work the way we used to think it did.

I'm speaking from a science degree background, where I took numerous courses that focused on animal and human behaviour.

I don't want to get into an argument about this, as I know from experience that most peoples' minds can't be changed. Just let me say this: if you aren't prepared for some sort of a struggle when your dog (or your kid) hits puberty, prepare to have your eyes opened!

It's all in how you interpret it. There is no denying it happens: the kid hits puberty, and prepares to take his/her adult place in the social order. That means a power struggle with mom and dad, and maybe some of the other older pack/tribe members. The worst thing we've done to our dogs in the last couple of decades is to deny that this takes place, and to deny that we need to take leadership. This results in a spoiled, unstable dog that doesn't know any boundaries, and is liable to wind up being euthanized at the local animal shelter.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> Are you suggesting humans can't be leaders and followers?


As far as humans go, you've seen the ads I'm sure- dominatrix and subservient? Correct? That's in human terms and by agreement. 
Most families with mom and dad are OF COURSE in a learning period and must learn good behavior as taught equally by their mom and dad. That's hardly equal to alphas.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

pam said:


> Might I suggest some further reading before you form your final opinion? The Wolf: The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species by L. David Mech published by the University of Minnesota Press. The author is a wildlife biologist for the U S Dept. of the Interior and a noted expert on wolves. The book is a compendium of years of scientific study of wolves in the wild, is extremely detailed and is a bit of a dry read as it resembles a thesis.
> 
> You will find that what Sabis says holds much truth.


Book was written in 1970 so for me....meh not so much belief. I wrote to the president of Defenders of Wildlife on this topic, I'll let you know the response.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Dominance just means that one defers to the other--when both want something, the dominant one gets it. This isn't controversial; what is controversial is whether consistently imposing your will on your dog (NILF) will cause it to see you as the "alpha" and adopt a set of pre-programmed behaviors consistent with that "role." Obviously the NILF method remains extremely popular, even if it probably doesn't work for the reasons its users think.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

jakubnovotny said:


> Are you suggesting humans can't be leaders and followers?


No. I am stating that we can't be dogs. Ever. They know we aren't dogs, we know we aren't dogs so I was never clear on who we were fooling. 
Domestic dogs have evolved in some twisted co dependent/symbiotic relationship with humans. They are no longer capable of functioning the same as they did. So to treat them that way is frankly dumb. But beyond that, the dog is no longer capable of forming a true pack. Feral dogs in areas all over the world form groups that more closely resemble misbehaving teenagers. They don't hunt for the most part, they scavenge. They certainly do not share. Dogs may greet a previous acquaintance with some warmth, they will often hang in familiar groups, sleeping is often a group project. They will absolutely gang up to beat up a newcomer.
Among canids who form packs, those packs are always familial. Always. New packs are formed when adolescent members strike out on their own and find a mate.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Book was written in 1970 so for me....meh not so much belief. I wrote to the president of Defenders of Wildlife on this topic, I'll let you know the response.


Defenders employs a monstrous staff. Current CEO Dr. Rappaport has a long history of conservation, but I have not know her to have studied wolves in particular.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> There is no such alpha or omega in a pack.





K9WolfAlpha said:


> They are very intelligent but even at home you have a 'pack' of dogs that never would have formed on their own. *So they just play follow the leader who happens to be he who feeds & trains the pack.*





jakubnovotny said:


> Sounds like you contradicted yourself.





pam said:


> Might I suggest some further reading before you form your final opinion?


Alpha definitions:

1) In studies of social animals, the highest ranking individual is sometimes designated as the alpha. Males, females, or both, can be alphas, depending on the species. Where one male and one female fulfill this role together, they are sometimes referred to as the alpha pair. Other animals in the same social group may exhibit deference or other species-specific subordinate behavior towards the alpha or alphas. 

Alpha animals usually gain preferential access to food and other desirable items or activities, though the extent of this varies widely between species. Male or female alphas may gain preferential access to sex or mates; in some species, only alphas or an alpha pair reproduce. 

Alphas may achieve their status by superior physical strength and aggression, or through social efforts and building alliances within the group,[1] or more often, simply by breeding and being the parent of all in their pack.[2] The individual with alpha status sometimes changes, often through a fight between the dominant and a subordinate animal. These fights are often to the death, depending on the animal. - wikipedia

2) socially dominant especially in a group of animals - merriam webster

Dominant definition: 

commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others
overlooking and commanding from a superior position - - merriam webster

Social Dominance definition: 

Social dominance refers to relationships wherein the goals of one individual prevail over the goals of another individual in a systematic manner. - science direct

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point is, concerning dogs, that the human is "alpha", or should be, by default.

When you simply feed your dog on a schedule, you're exerting your dominance through control of a resource.

Alpha does not necessarily mean using physical strength and aggression. 

The biggest issue I've seen on these boards, with owners struggling with their dogs, is leadership.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

car2ner said:


> I may not be pack leader but I am the benevolent dictator, or she who must be obeyed.


In regards to your dogs, you sound "alpha" to me


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> The idea was from some guy who studied wolves in captivity. He eventually rescinded his entire writing about packs. There is no one left who believes in alphas.


Actually, if you listen to or read David Mech's work, he doesn't dismiss the term "alpha", he just says it is not the best word to describe the relationship between "most" of the leaders in the "wild" wolves he's studied; because the term "alpha" connotes violence.

He goes on to say that the term is appropriate for artificial wolf packs. Another case where he says the term "alpha" is relevant is in complex pack structures with multiple breeding females such as in Yellowstone.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

jakubnovotny said:


> ....because the term "alpha" connotes violence.


SERIOUSLY?? 
See, this is where we run into trouble - the terminology. I don't see it that way at all. In biology, the alpha male is the one that gets most of the mating opportunities, the one that protects the tribe/pack, the one that leads. The alpha may have to fight other males to maintain his position (wild horses are a good example of this) or he may have that position due to being the father of the pack members (wolves).


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Defenders employs a monstrous staff. Current CEO Dr. Rappaport has a long history of conservation, but I have not know her to have studied wolves in particular.


I asked her to pass on the email to someone who works with the wolves altho they are in captivity I believe.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> Alpha definitions:
> 
> 1) In studies of social animals, the highest ranking individual is sometimes designated as the alpha. Males, females, or both, can be alphas, depending on the species. Where one male and one female fulfill this role together, they are sometimes referred to as the alpha pair. Other animals in the same social group may exhibit deference or other species-specific subordinate behavior towards the alpha or alphas.
> Alpha animals usually gain preferential access to food and other desirable items or activities, though the extent of this varies widely between species. Male or female alphas may gain preferential access to sex or mates; in some species, only alphas or an alpha pair reproduce.
> ...


I believe wiki is written by anyone online so I'm not giving them credibility because they are using old methods, books or trainers.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> Actually, if you listen to or read David Mech's work, he doesn't dismiss the term "alpha", he just says it is not the best word to describe the relationship between "most" of the leaders in the "wild" wolves he's studied; because the term "alpha" connotes violence.
> 
> He goes on to say that the term is appropriate for artificial wolf packs. Another case where he says the term "alpha" is relevant is in complex pack structures with multiple breeding females such as in Yellowstone.


Written in 1971 don't you question the validity of so many years ago? People back then mostly all believed in alphas.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Yes, I'm the alpha, but not the way most people think of it. I'm the leader, I decide, what we do, where we go, when we eat, what we eat, who is friend and who is foe. My dogs look to me for leadership and do not have to take on that role, they have also determined their social pecking order.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Written in 1971 don't you question the validity of so many years ago? People back then mostly all believed in alphas.


I don't know of anyone who has done more studies on wolves then Mech. He founded the International Wolf Center, I think it's called, and has dedicated his life to the topic. I believe he is in his 80's now. 
Maybe you should read some of his work before you dismiss him for being old.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

I fail to see where I insulted anyone at all. If you feel insulted for anything I wrote I apologize and it was not my intention at all.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Most of the wolf dog comparison is based on dogs being domesticated wolves. While grey wolves are the closest living relative of dogs, they diverged from common ancestor before dogs were domesticated. it was said before, dogs don't naturally form packs. Males do not sick around after breeding and play no part in rearing young. This is part of the reason feral dog puppies have a much higher mortality rate than wolves. When you talk about alphas, it infers that animal is the leader and decision maker of a group. This is not the case with dogs, as dominance is more about competition for resources. Dogs have evolved for 10s of thousands of years to rely on humans and look to them for guidance. When presented with an impossible puzzle, wolves would continue to try to solve it on their own. Dogs would quickly give up and look to the human for assistance. My opinion is you need to provide proper guidance to your dog when he needs it and ensure that he learns early on that he cannot get what he wants from you through aggression and intimidation. When I hear about people talking about being alpha to their dogs,I think of excessive force and intimidation such as alpha rolls, which is not necessary.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just wanted to add that as dogs evolved as scavengers of whatever humans didn't want to eat, they are much better at handling carbohydrates than wolves are! So, no, a wolf diet is NOT the perfect thing for our 'furbabies' especially the ones that have been selectively bred to have tiny little misaligned teeth crammed into a very short snout! Even dogs that resemble wolves have much smaller, weaker teeth and jaws.

Okay, sorry for the digression..back to the topic!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Bearshandler this is what I keep saying. Agree 100%. 
Dogs are not wolves and should not be compared to them. All canides share some common traits, but behavior is vastly different among them all.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> SERIOUSLY??
> See, this is where we run into trouble - the terminology. I don't see it that way at all. In biology, the alpha male is the one that gets most of the mating opportunities, the one that protects the tribe/pack, the one that leads. The alpha may have to fight other males to maintain his position (wild horses are a good example of this) or he may have that position due to being the father of the pack members (wolves).


 Your reply accidently showed up in my mailbox when your intent was to answer this: 
jakubnovotny said:
....because the term "alpha" connotes violence.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I believe wiki is written by anyone online so I'm not giving them credibility because they are using old methods, books or trainers.


Seriously lol. This is the main problem here. Not everyone seems to understand what "alpha" even means.

I quoted "merriam-webster" too. You don't believe in that definition either?



jakubnovotny said:


> 2) socially dominant especially in a group of animals - merriam webster


Can you please tell us what "alpha" means?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Actually wolves have a definite hierarchy. It just isn't quite the way most folks think it is.
> Domestic dogs gone feral live in loose gangs not cohesive packs, which likely indicates they aren't pack animals.
> With regards to alpha, beta, etc they absolutely exist. What we by and large get wrong is what that really means and what it looks like. And that we cannot be any of them. Lol.
> Female wolves, and likely dogs, are born into positions. Male are but not to the same extent. Males can move up or down a position. Females don't.
> ...


Same goes for a lions tribe. Females rule


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> Seriously lol. This is the main problem here. Not everyone seems to understand what "alpha" even means.
> 
> I quoted "merriam-webster" too. You don't believe in that definition either?
> 
> ...



a code word representing the letter A, used in radio communication.
_symbol_

1.
a plane angle.


2.
angular acceleration.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> SERIOUSLY??
> See, this is where we run into trouble - the terminology. I don't see it that way at all. In biology, the alpha male is the one that gets most of the mating opportunities, the one that protects the tribe/pack, the one that leads. The alpha may have to fight other males to maintain his position (wild horses are a good example of this) or he may have that position due to being the father of the pack members (wolves).


I agree with you. I think he was distancing himself from the word "alpha" to be politically correct.






"Expression Studies on Wolves" was a groundbreaking insight into the expressive behavior of captive wolves (and dog) behavior. Despite every repeated study on captive wolves yielding similar results, Schenkel's work is largely referred to as "outdated" when compared to the work of David Mech's wild wolf observations who simply decided to veer away from accurate terminology in the field of ethology and replace it with more "politically correct terms" when bringing to public light that most wild wolf packs consisted of "wolf families" and therefore the leaders should simply be called the "breeding pair" or parents instead of "Alphas". This caused widespread confusion in the dog training community in particular, and Schenkel's work has mostly become a footnote of outdated and debunked information since.
*Mech likely distanced himself from the term "alpha" due to the negative associations with the term and poorly applied dog training references and techniques*. *This "debunking" of the word alpha happened during the release of Mech's newest book and the emerging commercial success of Cesar Milan who liberally misused the term. Other commercial competitors of Milan jumped on the bandwagon of "debunking" not only the term but the whole concept of dominance and even any relationships between dog and wolf behavior. *The rhetoric has spread like a virus through professionals, that do not bother to check their references, and it has since become widely accepted "truth".
Mech later wrote in a letter to Psychology Today that:
"This misinterpretation and total misinformation like Kelley's (referring to an article about "dominance debunked") has plagued me for years now. I do not in any way reject the notion of dominance." (you can read more on this subject here)






Expression Studies on Wolves – Rudolph Schenkel, 1947 (and reference to the Mech “Alpha” debacle) – DogTraining.World







dogtraining.world


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> a code word representing the letter A, used in radio communication.
> _symbol_
> 
> 
> ...


And this is the basis of your arguement:

Nonsense.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Written in 1971 don't you question the validity of so many years ago? People back then mostly all believed in alphas.


Mech


K9WolfAlpha said:


> Written in 1971 don't you question the validity of so many years ago? People back then mostly all believed in alphas.


Mech's work is based on science, not opinion. Basic theories of science can hold true for generations, i.e. Darwin, Einstein. Some can be expanded, some revised and some proven partially or wholly incorrect, but age alone does not determine validity.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> And this is the basis of your arguement:
> 
> Nonsense.


Hey I resemble that remark I copied what showed up when I typed in alpha. No biggie.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

pam said:


> Mech
> 
> 
> Mech's work is based on science, not opinion. Basic theories of science can hold true for generations, i.e. Darwin, Einstein. Some can be expanded, some revised and some proven partially or wholly incorrect, but age alone does not determine validity.


So true. People from the "it's all in how you raise and train them" camp always start foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of Scott and Fuller's 20 year research on the genetics of behavior back in the 50's despite it still being the gold standard today.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

[Do Alpha Males & Females Actually Exist?
…in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance *contests with other wolves are rare,* if they exist at all … *calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha.* Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so *“alpha” adds no information*
So it turns out that wolves, arguably the alpha-iest of all animals, don’t really have alpha males or alpha females either. It’s only when you combine wolves from different families (like Schenkel did) that they’ll fight over rank. But even then, things will calm down once a family structure is established.

I think it's safe to say the dominatrix/submissive roles are x-rated.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Hey *I resemble that remark* I copied what showed up when I typed in alpha. No biggie.


Well, thanks for admitting that your whole argument is "nonsense" lol.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> [Do Alpha Males & Females Actually Exist?
> …in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance *contests with other wolves are rare,* if they exist at all … *calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha.* Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so *“alpha” adds no information*
> So it turns out that wolves, arguably the alpha-iest of all animals, don’t really have alpha males or alpha females either. It’s only when you combine wolves from different families (like Schenkel did) that they’ll fight over rank. But even then, things will calm down once a family structure is established.
> 
> I think it's safe to say the dominatrix/submissive roles are x-rated.


You admittingly don't even know what "alpha" means in relation to animals and yet you argue that:

*"There is no such thing as an alpha dog or wolf."*

lol


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Call it whatever you want, but that rotty @ 9:20 is the "Alpha male" in relation to the group of dogs he's with.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

There's No Such Thing As An Alpha Male


There's No Such Thing As An Alpha Male




www.iflscience.com












Why everything you know about wolf packs is wrong


The alpha wolf is a figure that looms large in our imagination. The notion of a supreme pack leader who fought his way to dominance and reigns superior to the other wolves in his pack informs both our fiction and is how many people understand wolf behavior. But the alpha wolf doesn't exist—at...




io9.gizmodo.com












The myth of the alpha wolf | Mawer


The trouble with Shenkel’s work was that wolves behave very differently in the wild than in zoos. When you take a group of human strangers and put them together, alpha men and women tend to emerge. According to Mech this also happens with other animals, including wolves. But wolf packs don’t...




www.mawer.com




"When it became obvious that using the term “alpha wolf” in his first book had been misleading, he began to publish articles correcting the misinformation. It took him over a decade, but eventually, the references of “alpha” behaviour among wolves in scientific literature fell precipitously. *Unfortunately, Mech has been unable to dislodge the term from mainstream consciousness (to his frustration)."*


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

jakubnovotny said:


> Call it whatever you want, but that rotty @ 9:20 is the "Alpha male" in relation to the group of dogs he's with.


Ok I'll call it 2 strays fighting because they're bored or hungry.
Feral dogs aren't a pack, a pack is mom, dad and litter.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

"Dominant wolves, which are usually the adult parents of the pack (Mech 1999) commonly dominate offspring by forcing them to the ground."


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> "When it became obvious that using the term “alpha wolf” in his first book had been misleading, he began to publish articles correcting the misinformation. It took him over a decade, but eventually, the references of “alpha” behaviour among wolves in scientific literature fell precipitously. *Unfortunately, Mech has been unable to dislodge the term from mainstream consciousness (to his frustration)."*





jakubnovotny said:


> Actually, if you listen to or read David Mech's work, he doesn't dismiss the term "alpha", he just says it is not the best word to describe the relationship between "most" of the leaders in the "wild" wolves he's studied; because the term "alpha" connotes violence.
> 
> *He goes on to say that the term is appropriate for artificial wolf packs. Another case where he says the term "alpha" is relevant is in complex pack structures with multiple breeding females such as in Yellowstone*.


I posted the interview where he basically says what I describe.

You are cherry picking your information to suit your bias:

*Confirmation bias* is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. ... People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Ok I'll call it 2 strays fighting because they're bored or hungry.
> Feral dogs aren't a pack, a pack is mom, dad and litter.


And if you bothered yourself to watch the video, they were fighting over a female in heat.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> And if you bothered yourself to watch the video, they were fighting over a female in heat.


How...very typical! [disdainful feminine sniff...]

I have never seen anything like that wolf video before, in either dogs or wolves. Yes, a dog forcing another to submit once or twice, but not over such a long period. Was the female a stranger to the pack?
I wonder if she was possibly coming into heat.

A few years ago, I saw a TV special on dog behaviour that tried to debunk all the things we think of as showing dominance. For instance, they showed an 8 month old pup humping and older dog, and the older dog tolerated it. They used that to claim humping behavior did not show dominance.

Anyone want to explain what that REALLY showed about dogs? BTW, the special was produced by (IIRC) the American Kennel Club.  If it wasn't AKC, it was possibly the American Humane Society, or another internationally recognized body that SHOULD have known better!


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

I would find it surprising for an 8 month old to intentionally instigate a larger more experienced dog to a fight over dominance. Who ends up sleeping in a coveted place? My dogs maneuver around and sometimes take my older dogs bed, he stands and looks at me like "WTH?" and I help him cuz he's 11 and wants his spot. There is never any fight over anything, actually I've never experienced any pack of mine doing anything I consider dominance except like I said in another post my King was kind of bossy, first night she nipped my 2 eldest dogs. I corrected and she stopped. This was around 2006 or so. I had 8 Shepherds at once, no dominance I could decipher and I was watchful of my pack. When we left them home all were separated, by crate or room. Just to keep them safe.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

With all the continual controversy about alphas I find it amusing to check the poll at the top. Not one person thought there are alphas. So sitting back to watch this play out. Game over.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

K9Wolf, you're not thinking about biology in your comments about the pup, and you should be.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> K9Wolf, you're not thinking about biology in your comments about the pup, and you should be.


I don't see a lot of thinking at all! 

With regards to this thread in general, lots of tossing words and quotes about with very little real input or knowledge. 
It's truly fascinating to watch.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> SERIOUSLY??
> See, this is where we run into trouble - the terminology. I don't see it that way at all. In biology, the alpha male is the one that gets most of the mating opportunities, the one that protects the tribe/pack, the one that leads. The alpha may have to fight other males to maintain his position (wild horses are a good example of this) or he may have that position due to being the father of the pack members (wolves).


Some say that the dog you describe as alpha is actually a high drive dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Actually wolves have a definite hierarchy. It just isn't quite the way most folks think it is.
> Domestic dogs gone feral live in loose gangs not cohesive packs, which likely indicates they aren't pack animals.
> With regards to alpha, beta, etc they absolutely exist. What we by and large get wrong is what that really means and what it looks like. And that we cannot be any of them. Lol.
> Female wolves, and likely dogs, are born into positions. Male are but not to the same extent. Males can move up or down a position. Females don't.
> ...


Can you provide further resources on females ruling?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I don't know of anyone who has done more studies on wolves then Mech. He founded the International Wolf Center, I think it's called, and has dedicated his life to the topic. I believe he is in his 80's now.
> Maybe you should read some of his work before you dismiss him for being old.


Zimon supposedly did some old time studies and is still cited today.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> Just wanted to add that as dogs evolved as scavengers of whatever humans didn't want to eat, they are much better at handling carbohydrates than wolves are! So, no, a wolf diet is NOT the perfect thing for our 'furbabies' especially the ones that have been selectively bred to have tiny little misaligned teeth crammed into a very short snout! Even dogs that resemble wolves have much smaller, weaker teeth and jaws.
> 
> Okay, sorry for the digression..back to the topic!


Too many people still buy into dogs as predators. They only hunt when there is nothing left to scavenge.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jakubnovotny said:


> "Dominant wolves, which are usually the adult parents of the pack (Mech 1999) commonly dominate offspring by forcing them to the ground."


My dogs have been known to force each other to the ground, male/male, female/female and male/female much like the wolves in that video. I have not seen it in female on male.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can you provide further resources on females ruling?


Another of McIntyre’s famous observations helped cement the relatively late realization—*“male bias” is McIntyre’s laconic explanation for how long it took scientists to figure it out—that a pack’s leader was its alpha female, not its alpha male. *Watching 21 in his new pack, where he was alpha male, McIntyre says, “I saw him get up and try to lead the others on a hunt to the east. No one followed. He tried eight times and everyone ignored him every time. Then the alpha female, wolf 40, got up, and when she wanted to go on a hunt to the west, everybody immediately followed, with 21 last in line.”









How a runt wolf from Canada became a hero - Macleans.ca


A new book tells the story of the greatest wolf who ever lived, and the one greater than him




www.macleans.ca


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can you provide further resources on females ruling?


No. Because I'm not paying for access to things I already have in print. 
Females choose their mates, not males.
Females select den sites, and decide when they will leave den sites.
Males may be more aggressive but females are more assertive. 
Females decide on hunts and often lead them.
These are my observations, over several years of studying, tracking and documenting wolves myself.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jakubnovotny said:


> Another of McIntyre’s famous observations helped cement the relatively late realization—*“male bias” is McIntyre’s laconic explanation for how long it took scientists to figure it out—that a pack’s leader was its alpha female, not its alpha male. *Watching 21 in his new pack, where he was alpha male, McIntyre says, “I saw him get up and try to lead the others on a hunt to the east. No one followed. He tried eight times and everyone ignored him every time. Then the alpha female, wolf 40, got up, and when she wanted to go on a hunt to the west, everybody immediately followed, with 21 last in line.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. But that doesn't apply to dogs.


Sabis mom said:


> No. Because I'm not paying for access to things I already have in print.
> Females choose their mates, not males.
> Females select den sites, and decide when they will leave den sites.
> Males may be more aggressive but females are more assertive.
> ...


But that is wolves. I am looking for that information in reference to dogs.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

_"Can you provide further resources on females ruling?"
"Thanks. But that doesn't apply to dogs."_

@*MineAreWorkingline*

Sorry, I just reread what you wrote and you didn't specify


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> But that is wolves. I am looking for that information in reference to dogs.


Sorry. I thought you were asking me about my statement on wolves.

I really don't know how it works with dogs, I have never seen a male dominate a female, never seen a male do more then defend from a female and I have observed females being much more assertive then males. I've observed street dogs and pets as well as working dogs. With a few exceptions I have seldom seen a male get assertive with a female.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

jakubnovotny said:


> _"Can you provide further resources on females ruling?"
> "Thanks. But that doesn't apply to dogs."_
> 
> @*MineAreWorkingline*
> ...


My bad. I should have been more specific.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> With all the continual controversy about alphas I find it amusing to check the poll at the top. Not one person thought there are alphas. So sitting back to watch this play out. Game over.


Says the person whose avatar is named "Alpha"

lol


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I just read the McLean's article. I've been following wolves since my university days, have read Mowat's book, Never Cry Wolf, and watched the TV specials on the Yellowstone wolves, and a more recent PBS special on Arctic wolves in Canada's far north. These wolves had never encountered humans before, so the researcher's experience was very similar to Mowat's - the wolves had no fear of him, and were easy to observe, once he found them. I also have a book (put away in a box, so can't pull it out) about wolves in Algonquin Park, which have been found to be a species all their own, with a mix of red wolf and coyote genes.

Never, ever, have I heard of, or seen a wolf treat a female the way the wolf in that video clip did. What the heck was going on there?? Was she even a pack member?

And is anyone going to try answering my question about the 8 month old pup humping a much older male dog?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> I just read the McLean's article. I've been following wolves since my university days, have read Mowat's book, Never Cry Wolf, and watched the TV specials on the Yellowstone wolves, and a more recent PBS special on Arctic wolves in Canada's far north. These wolves had never encountered humans before, so the researcher's experience was very similar to Mowat's - the wolves had no fear of him, and were easy to observe, once he found them. I also have a book (put away in a box, so can't pull it out) about wolves in Algonquin Park, which have been found to be a species all their own, with a mix of red wolf and coyote genes.
> 
> Never, ever, have I heard of, or seen a wolf treat a female the way the wolf in that video clip did. What the heck was going on there?? Was she even a pack member?
> 
> And is anyone going to try answering my question about the 8 month old pup humping a much older male dog?


It is my understanding that humping can mean a few things besides dominance. Females in heat may hump a reluctant male in flirtation. Dogs can use humping in play no different than they practice other life skills such as stalking, chasing and fighting. Humping can be a displacement behavior to distract. In the case of a young dog, it can be a sign of insecurity. I am sure there are other causes.

I don't know about wolves but I have seen the behavior in the video by my male dogs to females. If I did not interrupt, who knows how long it would have gone on?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Workingline, you've gotten closer to it than anyone who's commented yet. But what you all are missing is the significance of the age of the young male. Think about it - what's happening at 8 months? It also has a lot to do with the reason the older dog tolerated his behaviour.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sunsilver said:


> Workingline, you've gotten closer to it than anyone who's commented yet. But what you all are missing is the significance of the age of the young male. Think about it - what's happening at 8 months? It also has a lot to do with the reason the older dog tolerated his behaviour.


You are right, I am missing your point. An 8 month old male is experiencing a surge of hormones. I don't own an adult male dog, or female, that would stand for that behavior. 😁 The one observation I can make from my personal experience is that prior dogs didn't pull the puppy pass until the pup was about one year old. This current group is higher drive overall and start pulling puppy passes at 6 months. 🤷‍♀️


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

BINGO! We have a winner! Yes, surging hormones - puppies that age will often hump anything that's moving (or sometimes not moving - cushions, rugs, etc.) and the older dog is giving him a puppy pass, while every fiber of the older dog's body is saying, "You try this in another couple of months, you little brat, and I will CLEAN YOUR CLOCK!!"

Anyone who really understands dog body language couldn't possibly have looked at the older dog without noticing what he was 'saying'! There wasn't an ounce of submission in the way he was standing, yet the people who put the film together totally missed it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Ok, so I refuse to read big blocks of underlined text, so I may be missing out on part of this discussion.

What, if anything, does this have to do with training dogs?


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Maybe OP is a "positive only" training advocate ?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Ok, so I refuse to read big blocks of underlined text, so I may be missing out on part of this discussion.
> 
> What, if anything, does this have to do with training dogs?


Nothing. Lol. It's turned into a bizarre conversation that has little to do with dogs at all.


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Never, ever, have I heard of, or seen a wolf treat a female the way the wolf in that video clip did. What the heck was going on there?? Was she even a pack member?


The wolf in the video is thought to be his son. A pack member.

"Dominant wolves, which are usually the adult parents of the pack (Mech 1999) commonly dominate offspring by forcing them to the ground."

If you double click the above highlighted text, it brings you to David Mech's paper. That was Mech who video taped that episode in Eureka, Nunavut, Canada.

_"Dominance behavior can include a broad spectrum of social interactions from a parent wolf chastising a young pup to fullfledged battles (Mech 1993), sometimes resulting in death. 

In our experience, the most usual context of dominance behavior in free-ranging wolves is that of parent to offspring. However in the few free-ranging wolf packs observed closely enough, no one has quantified or even described parent-offspring dominance behavior (Murie 1944; Clark 1971; Haber 1977; Mech 1997). 

We observed and videotaped an unusual, prolonged and intensive bout of such behavior by an adult male Gray Wolf, Canis lupus, and a male member of his pack thought to be a maturing son. Because of the unusually persistent and intensive nature of this interaction we document it here."_ - Mech


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jakubnovotny, and here I was thinking the other wolf was a FEMALE! 

Well, that puts a whole different spin on it!


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> the wolves had no fear of him, and were easy to observe, once he found them.


And as far as the wolf Mech was observing, you can see the radio collar on him. That makes finding and tracking these animals easier.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This is the more recent miniseries I mentioned. Well worth a watch if you are interested in wolves! Kingdom of the White Wolf (TV Mini-Series 2019) - IMDb

The death of the oldest female in the pack had a very serious effect - without her leadership, the pack nearly fell apart!


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## jakubnovotny (Aug 1, 2020)

Thank you for the link. I will look at it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The IMDB link doesn't tell you much, but if you do a search for the documentary by name, you will find some clips on YouTube: 




If you want to watch the whole miniseries, it's available on DisneyPlus. National Geographic has yet to confirm if there will be a second season for the series.


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## binBanned (Oct 6, 2020)

Credit for above video to member @hunterisgreat. Video link obtained from Sportwaffen: Beschützer - Sportwaffen K9

Thanks @hunterisgreat for sharing a great video.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Nothing. Lol. It's turned into a bizarre conversation that has little to do with dogs at all.


There’s a relevant needle of German Shepherd knowledge in this senseless haystack. I just don’t have the need to search for it.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good article, and a good point to make. No such thing as an alpha, so stop trying to dominate your dog and start trying to be a team!


Tim.

I never dominate my dogs, unless they need domination.

With three German Shepherds in a household, sometimes one or two of them needs to recall that there’s rules, guidelines and surely limits.

Whatever name you wish to ascribe to that “alpha”, “dominator” et al, have at it. But they absolutely need and recognize structure, discipline and authority.

I have zero interest in applying any “wolf” pack behavior studies to handling my German Shepherds in 2020.

This is a five page thread in pomposity.

Is there not a Wolf Forum somewhere???


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