# Charge the marker first or teach puppy its name?



## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Hi guys,

My wife and I should be getting a German Shepherd pup in a few months. We are beyond excited!

We've been reading a lot and researching - Leerburg and Michael Ellis has been a bit of a source of info. I've been looking at marker training and I think I get all of that but I have a few basic questions regarding what you teach first:


I would have thought the first thing you teach your puppy would be its name - _call puppy by its name, when it gives attention, feed it a treat_
What has me confused is there's a lot of info about bringing your puppy home, starting crate training straight away and such - I thought crate training involved the use of markers. Seems confusing to me to have introduced a puppy to "name and it gets a treat" as well as charging a marker at the same time.

Unless the very first thing you teach your puppy is the marker, then call its name and when it gives you attention, then give it the marker and the treat?

Forgive my confusion but I read a lot and then overthink things that are probably a lot more simple than I imagine them to be.

Cheers
Adam


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## Westx (Mar 3, 2020)

Watch this guys videos on YouTube. Nate Schoemer | Home


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Charging the marker can be done in 1 (rarely 2) sessions. Depends on how interesting you are and how food motivated your pup is.

For example, if your marker word is “yes”... each time you say yes (in the same pitch/tone), give a kibble... Quick succession, 10-20x until your pup makes the association.

then, when introducing his name...“Fluffy”, Fluffy looks, “yes!”, feed the kibble. Over and over and over again.

edit: you can also teach the puppy it’s name the same way you charge the marker without using a marker word.... if you’re overwhelmed. I’d probably do it this way to make my life easier... I haven’t raised a baby puppy but I teach my personal young adult dogs the same way (name recognition first) and delay formal training for quite awhile until they get settled in.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

People sure have made getting a puppy complicated, haven't they?

Relax. Enjoy your puppy. He'll learn his name. The first thing I do is teach engagement and one of those games includes putting the puppy on a longer, thin line or a flexi and tossing a piece of food to get them to go away from me. Once they get the food, I give a very light tug on the line and call their name, reward when they come back to you. It will take jus a few times for them to figure out this game.

the next thing is Crate Games. Highly advise renting or buying this. for this you will need the clicker. But the puppy doesn't need to know their name to charge a clicker. Click feed click feed click feed click feed click (did the puppy just look at you for food? - clicker loaded) if not continue to click and feed until that happens.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> People sure have made getting a puppy complicated, haven't they?
> 
> Relax. Enjoy your puppy. He'll learn his name. The first thing I do is teach engagement and one of those games includes putting the puppy on a longer, thin line or a flexi and tossing a piece of food to get them to go away from me. Once they get the food, I give a very light tug on the line and call their name, reward when they come back to you. It will take jus a few times for them to figure out this game.
> 
> the next thing is Crate Games. Highly advise renting or buying this. for this you will need the clicker. But the puppy doesn't need to know their name to charge a clicker. Click feed click feed click feed click feed click (did the puppy just look at you for food? - clicker loaded) if not continue to click and feed until that happens.


Lol. It's just my first formally owned dog, getting a working line GSD and don't want to mess it up.

This name and marker thing really seems to be the only thing that confuses me. If you believe in this marker training and people say that you should start basic training and crate training straight away, you must have to do the name and the marker stuff to begin with. But then they're sorta the same thing?

Does anyone understand my confusion? lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

All I do is keep things separate. Casual hanging out calling their name, saying whatever comes out of me when I'm not thinking about it. Then for anything formal, like charging a marker or luring into positions, I begin it with a cue, "Ready", train whatever, and end it with "Done"


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> Lol. It's just my first formally owned dog, getting a working line GSD and don't want to mess it up.
> 
> This name and marker thing really seems to be the only thing that confuses me. If you believe in this marker training and people say that you should start basic training and crate training straight away, you must have to do the name and the marker stuff to begin with. But then they're sorta the same thing?
> 
> Does anyone understand my confusion? lol


I think what’s new to you (and isn’t spelled out wherever you’re researching) is how incredibly fast these dogs learn. Charge the marker (load the clicker) takes a few minutes. Pup will learn it’s name from a couple of sessions to a couple of days depending on how / how often you work on it.

Also, dogs have been taught without food and markers for over a century - go at whatever pace is comfortable and not confusing for you!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I first learned years ago that you're supposed to charge the marker before using it, but with the past few pups I skipped over that step and it worked out just fine. Say pup's name, pup turns and looks at you: verbal marker ("yes!") or clicker, hand a treat. Rinse/repeat. Pup learns his/her name at the same time they learn the significance of the marker. I like to be efficient, lol.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I first learned years ago that you're supposed to charge the marker before using it, but with the past few pups I skipped over that step and it worked out just fine. Say pup's name, pup turns and looks at you: verbal marker ("yes!") or clicker, hand a treat. Rinse/repeat. Pup learns his/her name at the same time they learn the significance of the marker. I like to be efficient, lol.


Hahaha, I very much agree with this sentiment.
Excellent.

WHAT A WONDERFUL FORUM. Just saying. I feel welcome already and I think this is going to become a happy place for me. Cheers all. (But keep it coming, lol.)


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Wow! I agree with Jax, this sounds too complicated, lol.

Bring your puppy home, spoil it play with it, cuddle it. 
Crate training isn't generally tough and ties into house training. Markers don't need to be difficult, I never try they just happen. Don't over think this. Just enjoy your puppy. 
I have perfected house training, takes no time if you do it right and right from the start and crate training is easily accomplished the same way. I didn't even know someone was making money off this stuff until a few years ago.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I love what @Cassidy's Mom and @Sabis mom said! That's it in a nutshell! 

Once you get your puppy, just develop a dialogue. Both favorable and negative markers ARE important steering tools! It's a dialog, that you develop over time.

I've trained many dogs, and I only conceptually understand what "loading a marker" even means!

I've never done it!

Let that sink in a a minute...NEVER!

It's a fad, a gimmick, that's it. 

I use good and no or nope, as steering feedback. It lets the puppy know if they're on the right track or not. And they can tell clearly what each mean from your demeanor and body language!

For me "Yes" or "Good girl" are the indicators that let her know she's achieved something and it WILL initially get a reward. I fade that too over time. 

But, whatever terms you choose to use, I strongly suggest using what comes naturally to you, it really doesn't matter. 

What matters more than methodology, more than technique, or anything else, is the intimate relationship of respect and patience and fun and love that you build with your puppy. 

I've heard many people on this forum talk about it, but for me it is the cornerstone of everything! 

I've done this with puppies, with rescues that were older, and with other people's dogs. 

Dog's are pretty elemental beings. There's no guise there. Show them they can trust you, show them patience and understanding (and I mean true understanding that dogs talk with their stance and their eyes!), and show them new challenges to learn and be successful at, and viola, you're golden!

The puppy's happy, you're happy, the world is happy!

Oh yeah, PS: Buy chain mail gloves LOL!


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Westx said:


> Watch this guys videos on YouTube. Nate Schoemer | Home


This is fantastic. Cheers mate.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> I love what @Cassidy's Mom and @Sabis mom said! That's it in a nutshell!
> 
> Once you get your puppy, just develop a dialogue. Both favorable and negative markers ARE important steering tools! It's a dialog, that you develop over time.
> 
> ...


I think I agree for the most part. One of the main things I didn't like about Leerburg was that it took the romance out of training with your dog.
Anyway, cheers everyone. I really appreciate all your input 🙃 

_Is there a puppy thread where I can put pics of my pup up and brag to people here instead of creating an Instagram or something silly? You guys are 100% guaranteed to compliment our pup lol_


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's a fad, a gimmick, that's it.


lol, no... it’s not...
Great that you’ve never done it (which limits your understanding) yet have such a strong opinion.
Is it necessary? Nope, not at all, but to go as far as to think of it as a joke is laughable in itself.
Is it fun, it is. Is it effective, it is.... when you know what you’re doing.
Again, is it necessary, not at all... nor are a lot of things.
I think if someone has a genuine interest in a technique, regardless what it is, there are ways to support them without persuading them against it.
I’m not a trendy person by any means... but after rolling my eyes for a couple decades, now being 6.5yrs into my first clicker trained dog, it’s a tool that I’ll never discount.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

The clicker is not a fad or a gimmick. It’s a tool. And it works. I started using one over 20 years ago with my first Doberman (she LOVED it when that clicker came out), and I took everyone of my Italian Greyhounds through clicker classes, with great success. Timing is key, and I think it’s why some people are critical about it, but It’s not that difficult to work on your timing.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Here is a video by Stonnie Dennis showing very early lessons with young malinois/shepherd cross litter.

He focuses on targeting leading to a bunch of movements without worrying about naming them until a bit later.

It shows a couple of interesting things. That you can work on a number of things at the same time and he talks about training the pups for a couple of minutes each time and repeating about a dozen times per day.

Don't overthink it. Crate train and get your puppy to fall in love with running to you. Play with him a lot. Have fun!






Since you are already watching training videos and asking questions here, you will be just fine.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

In the beginning with a pup and marker training, such as with a clicker, you don't have to say a word. Let the dog walk around on a leash and as soon as he offers the behavior you want, click and quickly give the food. If he sits, as soon as his butt hits the ground, click, move toward him and give the food.If he is still sitting even a second latter, click, move forward and give the food. At first you want a lot of continuous reinforcement and your timing makes a big difference. If your timing is off and right before you click, he sits up and you click and reward anyway, you have reinforced getting up from a sit, not sitting. I think it is best to use a place box and just wait for the pup to move toward it. Then you click and reinforce. You keep doing that and gradually expect the pup to get closer to the box until he eventually gets in. You don't have to say a word. This is self discover. There are a lot of little details that actually make marker training complicated if you do it correctly. For example, a common mistake is to move toward the pup to reinforce him before you mark/click. And as said, if your pup lacks good food drive, it is hard to lay a good foundation.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Keyword: Self discovery, thank you @Chip Blasiole ....you can always cut corners and certainly still make progress training your dog, but without this component, you’ll never see the true power or full potential of clicker/marker training.


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> In the beginning with a pup and marker training, such as with a clicker, you don't have to say a word. Let the dog walk around on a leash and as soon as he offers the behavior you want, click and quickly give the food. If he sits, as soon as his butt hits the ground, click, move toward him and give the food.If he is still sitting even a second latter, click, move forward and give the food. At first you want a lot of continuous reinforcement and your timing makes a big difference. If your timing is off and right before you click, he sits up and you click and reward anyway, you have reinforced getting up from a sit, not sitting. I think it is best to use a place box and just wait for the pup to move toward it. Then you click and reinforce. You keep doing that and gradually expect the pup to get closer to the box until he eventually gets in. You don't have to say a word. This is self discover. There are a lot of little details that actually make marker training complicated if you do it correctly. For example, a common mistake is to move toward the pup to reinforce him before you mark/click. And as said, if your pup lacks good food drive, it is hard to lay a good foundation.


Is this similar to the "free shaping" sentiment expressed by.. Nate S? It sounded like a great idea and still does; rewards the dog's natural confidence. It sounds like authoritative parenting rather than authoritarian or permissive.
Jolly good


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jorski said:


> Here is a video by Stonnie Dennis showin very early lessons with young malinois/shepherd cross litter.
> 
> He focuses on targeting leading to a bunch of movements without worrying about naming them until a bit later.
> 
> It shows a couple of interesting things. That you can work on a number of things at the same time and he talks about training the puos for a couple of minutes each time and repeating about a dizen times per day.


That’s basically what i do, short of a dozen times a day since I don’t have quite that much time, lol. Multiple brief sessions a day is definitely the way to go, since puppy attention spans are short.

I like to capture behaviors that the puppy does spontaneously, reinforcing them by marking and rewarding. There’s no point in trying to name a behavior if the puppy doesn’t even know what it is yet. I want if offered fairly reliably first, and then i’ll put it on cue.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I start off capturing the easy behaviors like sit and down. My Italian Greyhounds did lots of play bow stretching, so that was easy to capture and later add the cue ”bow”. 

I love to see the wheels turning in a clicker trained dog’s head.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> I start off capturing the easy behaviors like sit and down. My Italian Greyhounds did lots of play bow stretching, so that was easy to capture and later add the cue ”bow”.
> 
> I love to see the wheels turning in a clicker trained dog’s head.


ROFL. Maybe that's why Bud responded so poorly to marker training, that boy had NO wheels turning.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> ROFL. Maybe that's why Bud responded so poorly to marker training, that boy had NO wheels turning.


I rescued a 7 year old Italian Greyhound from a puppy mill. That little dog was so sweet but totally clueless. I took her to clicker classes and she never got that a click meant a treat was coming. She died at about 15-16 years old and never learned a single command.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t know what Mate S. Said but operant learning is not concerned with unobservable, unmeasurable constructs such as confidence. The objective is to increase the frequency of a desirable behavior via positive reinforcement. As training progresses you also use negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment. The term positive and negative refer to the presentation or removal of a stimulus respectively. It is not about good vs. bad. You can start to see you need a knowledge base and operant learning approaches are simple but not easy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ugh what a totally kissable face! 
So the part about charging the marker? Bud would sit and stare at me for hours. Seriously. Never took his eyes off me. So I click treat, click treat, click treat, click -dog continues staring at me-treat. I get someone to squeak a toy, click dog looks at me treat. Thought we had it. Nope. All that dog ever got was that he should stare at me 24/7.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Ugh what a totally kissable face!
> So the part about charging the marker? Bud would sit and stare at me for hours. Seriously. Never took his eyes off me. So I click treat, click treat, click treat, click -dog continues staring at me-treat. I get someone to squeak a toy, click dog looks at me treat. Thought we had it. Nope. All that dog ever got was that he should stare at me 24/7.


During loading if you click too many times for what the dog is doing, that becomes the behavior. i make it a point (again, only during loading) not to click for the same thing more than twice... get the dog moving and trying things... realizing that their actions are what drive the clicker. using the squeaky ball example, as soon as the dog looked at the ball, i’d click, if the dog whips his head back around looking for food - the connection has been made, the clicker has been loaded, and you’re now ready to start shaping behaviors.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Fodder said:


> During loading if you click too many times for what the dog is doing, that becomes the behavior. i make it a point (again, only during loading) not to click for the same thing more than twice... get the dog moving and trying things... realizing that their actions are what drive the clicker. using the squeaky ball example, as soon as the dog looked at the ball, i’d click, if the dog whips his head back around looking for food - the connection has been made, the clicker has been loaded, and you’re now ready to start shaping behaviors.


I get it, and to be fair he was my first attempt with a clicker. He just was not very bright. He knew what the clicker meant, but subsequent ventures with it just frustrated him. Also to be fair, when we moved the gate he still went every day to it's old spot and waited there. For two years. And yes he could see.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> I get it, and to be fair he was my first attempt with a clicker. He just was not very bright. He knew what the clicker meant, but subsequent ventures with it just frustrated him. Also to be fair, when we moved the gate he still went every day to it's old spot and waited there. For two years. And yes he could see.


Eh, it’s not for every dog.... Tilden loved the actual clicker and always seemed confused & disappointed when I’d offer the food and not the clicker itself.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

When I got the clicker out, Tess (Dobe) would throw behaviors at me like crazy. She loved training, and behaviors learned with the clicker really stuck with her.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Continuous reinforcement is the beginning. Then you raise the expectations such as eye contact, holding the behavior longer, fading the lure, etc.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This has turned out to be one of the most enjoyable threads I've been following in some time!

You've all made my case about dialog much better than I ever could have! And it's been VERY humorous getting there!

OP I hope you've noticed the successes and failures mentioned with "clicker training'. 

I hope you also noted that I never mentioned a "clicker" in my previous comments!

To me it doesn't matter. What matters in training is results!

Dialog and relationship with your dog, clicker, marker, or whatever, dialog with your puppy/dog is all that matters! The rest is noise!!!

Good luck with your new puppy!


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## MyWifeIsBoss (Apr 27, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> This has turned out to be one of the most enjoyable threads I've been following in some time!
> 
> You've all made my case about dialog much better than I ever could have! And it's been VERY humorous getting there!
> 
> ...


I'm having a giggle for sure, mate.
I don't want to use a clicker - I like the idea of using words AND body language (why do so many trainers say you should only use your vocal commands?)
I think what I've picked up is that I need to build engagement more than anything - make our puppy want to be around my wife and I as much as possible. And for us to be good leaders. If those things are met along with exercise, sounds like the rest is easy. Aside from the biting, shedding, public image of dog, house training, destruction of carpet, puppy proofing, vet bills, food bills.. lolol.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Now you're catching on LOL! Good on ya!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Now you're catching on LOL! Good on ya!


To elaborate a bit...

Nothing wrong with a clicker. I don't use one because I'm a forgetful person. I bought one, with my new puppy, thinking I should at least "try" to employ the latest and greatest methods of the day.

I stared at said clicker for a couple days contemplating, then put it in a drawer and never used it!

@Fodder suggests that it's because I have a lack of knowledge...

Nothing could be further from the truth! It's exactly because I do have experience in training dogs, for many many years, that I chose not to use it!

The gimmick that I was calling out though wasn't the clicker, used consistently and correctly it is effective! 

It's the whole ideology that has developed around it! Loading the freaking marker, whatever the marker is, be it verbal or clicker, is simply a waste of time and completely unnecessary! Markers are self loading! As @Cassidie's Mom pointed out!

It's really not that freaking complicated! But they are animals, with thoughts and perceptions and personalities that differ. So just watch and adjust as needed for the puppy you're working with!

Make sure you're stable, and trustworthy, and show them patience, and gentle guidance!

Both when they're right and when they're wrong. It's guidance, not punishment, just guidance like we do with our own children.

I truly believe that the sooner and deeper you develop this dialog with your puppy, the better off both will be! Training is, after all, achieving desired behaviors, right? How better to get there than by establishing clear communication?

It pays off HUGE dividends later on!

Best of luck! And hey, you better keep us all posted on your new pup (with pictures)!!

Cheers!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> why do so many trainers say you should only use your vocal commands?


this is not a concrete rule.
you have to understand the context and your goals of your training.
dogs communicate through body language, therefore in a sense, body language will always win.
I train with hand gestures, verbal cues and body language...
story time: 
my recall to a heel position from a distance involves a verbal command and a tap on my left hip. as a novice, my timing wasn’t great and for awhile, no one pointed out that I also inadvertently leaned to the left while tapping my hip. come time for this particular dogs evaluation, I was nervous and stood tall and stiff as a board, I asked her to “heel” without realizing that I taught and she’d only practiced this with the lean... naturally she hesitated out of confusion... eventually coming after the second command (which isn’t allowed in that particular setting). the evaluator, who had observed me practicing earlier suggested I try something, with no verbal command, I simply leaned to the left and before I could even tap my hip - she came! 
my point... you can use one or the other or both, but you have to be aware of how dogs learn and what you’re teaching, whether it’s on purpose or not.
you often hear of dogs having inconsistent responses when switching handlers whether it’s a trainer or a spouse, etc... a big part of that is relationship, the other part is all these many nuances that come with tone and body language.
so, I don’t know what trainers you’re referencing, I personally don’t know ‘so many’ that say that, but out of context, I’m just offering one reason of why that may be. If you’re listening to someone instructing for sport or competition, that could be another reason.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MyWifeIsBoss said:


> I don't want to use a clicker - I like the idea of using words AND body language (why do so many trainers say you should only use your vocal commands?)
> I think what I've picked up is that I need to build engagement more than anything - make our puppy want to be around my wife and I as much as possible. And for us to be good leaders. If those things are met along with exercise, sounds like the rest is easy. Aside from the biting, shedding, public image of dog, house training, destruction of carpet, puppy proofing, vet bills, food bills.. lolol.


You certainly don't have to use a clicker if you don't want to, but marker training is very effective. Your timing of reward delivery isn't critical as long as your timing of the marker is. I personally like to use a clicker _and_ a verbal marker, so my dogs understand both. When I'm actively training a new behavior I'm wearing my treat bag and I keep a clicker attached to it with a coiled wrist strap so it's always handy. Clickers are great for incremental shaping of behaviors - the sound is always exactly the same and it's very precise, making it easy to mark the exact moment your dog is doing what you want to reinforce and reward. But sometimes I want to mark and reward something when I'm not actively training, that's when I can use a verbal marker instead, and then go get a treat or a toy. 

I haven't seen trainers say you should only use voice commands. Dogs are very in tune with our body language so it's easier for them to pick up on hand signals than it is to grasp which of our many, many words has relevance to them and how, so it makes sense to add a verbal cue after the dog understands the behavior. Telling your dog "sit" when he has no idea what sit means is an exercise in futility. But if he'll follow a treat lure into a sit, you can mark and give a treat the second his butt hits the floor, then transition to an empty hand doing the lure motion and treating with the other hand, and finally saying the word a second or two before using the lure motion, which helps the dog associate the two.

You should also realize that dogs don't generalize well, so just because he can sit on cue facing you in your kitchen, that doesn't mean he'll do it when he's in your yard, or sitting next to you in heel position or when you're sitting in a chair, or he's in the car, or across the room from you. To us, it's all the same. To a dog, they're different.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Fodder said:


> dogs communicate through body language, therefore in a sense, body language will always win.


THIS!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@tim_s_adams you’re right - I hadn’t taken your gimmick remark to be directed specifically at charging the marker vs marker training itself. My apologies!

however... you said “conceptual understanding” I said “limited understanding”... that’s kinda tomato tomato as the saying goes.

Combining loading and name recognition isn’t the end of the world, no, especially if you’re using a verbal marker (words already mean more to a young puppy than the sound of the clicker) but if the same approach is used later in marker training, it limits and complicates things, so I see no reason not to do it “right” from the beginning (call it muscle memory) for someone who is brand new to this type of training. I also enjoy seeing the lightbulb go off when the dog starts offering movement and behaviors in hopes to get marked, from that very first loading session - that’s the type of introduction and foundation i want. But I’ve already addressed that in my ‘self discovery’ response...

edit: to be fair, I most often am introducing marker training to dogs that already know their names


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

There are a lot of breeders now using Puppy Culture to raise their litters. Powering up the clicker is one of things that is taught before the puppy leaves the breeder. I have already loaded up the clicker with mine, we have been working on crate training. They will be 8 wks on Sunday. Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs has some great videos on Facebook about how they raise their litters, each week of raising. There are DVD's you can purchase on Puppy Culture website, though that may not be necessary if you following the videos. You can see how to mark and reward. Kikopup on youtube has some great videos, there is one for dremmeling nails from a doberman breeder, I like the way she instructs that one.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

vomlittlehaus said:


> There are a lot of breeders now using Puppy Culture to raise their litters. Powering up the clicker is one of things that is taught before the puppy leaves the breeder. I have already loaded up the clicker with mine, we have been working on crate training. They will be 8 wks on Sunday. Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs has some great videos on Facebook about how they raise their litters, each week of raising. There are DVD's you can purchase on Puppy Culture website, though that may not be necessary if you following the videos. You can see how to mark and reward. Kikopup on youtube has some great videos, there is one for dremmeling nails from a doberman breeder, I like the way she instructs that one.


My Scarlet is a Puppy Culture dog. My breeder loaned me her DVDs when the litter was born, and I got to be in on a lot of the Puppy Culture goings-on. It was fun.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Fodder said:


> @tim_s_adams you’re right - I hadn’t taken your gimmick remark to be directed specifically at charging the marker vs marker training itself. My apologies!
> 
> however... you said “conceptual understanding” I said “limited understanding”... that’s kinda tomato tomato as the saying goes.
> 
> ...



From my perspective, if you're loading the marker by just randomly clicking and giving a treat, you're confusing the pup already!

If you begin by clicking on a behavior that's desirable and then treating, as I said, the dog makes the connection itself, but also understands that there's a connection to an action.

There is a "right" way, of course we each believe "ours" is LOL! It's all good! Results are what matters...


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