# From this photo what would you say about this GSD?



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

By that I mean does this GSD look of show/work/ mixed/ chunky? If you're wondering why this is my dog's sire. Yes, I'm probably guilty of buying from a BYB. Although she wasn't the typical disgusting have 20 females to breed. Only one male and female... and a bunch of horses! When I saw him he was huge and like a big teddy bear. His ears were super thick and so are Riley's. 

I have papers on my pup, well papers to register him but I'm not going to. I see no purpose in registering when I'm not showing him or doing anything else. And no, I do not breed dogs. My pup is scheduled to be neutered in Jan, thank goodness!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cannot see your picture. Wonder if the pup is as happy about losing its parts as you seem to be. Is there a reason why its "thank goodness!"?

With only one male and female, yeah probably a typical BYB. 

If they had a number of females, they might be a breeder with a goal and a focus, one who keeps their older bitches rather than dumping them, one that raises up puppies from their own breedings because they are doing a good job of mating dogs and are proud of what they are producing, and possibly takes back a dog or two from people who could not keep them for whatever reason.

If you are a reputable breeder, you will have more than one female and male.

Sorry, but the changes that your male will completely complement your female are pretty slim, better to go to an outside stud and pay a stud fee. And if you have been breeding for any time, why are you not keeping back a pup or pups out of a litter to go forward with. 

Good breeders are not just putting together one male and one female to produce one litter of pretty puppies. That is a BYB. Good breeders have a goal and a purpose for putting together dogs and bitches, and keeping the best of the off spring for the future.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Because I am pro spay/neutering your animals when you don't intend on breeding! Is that a problem for you?


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I also don't think animals show a preference in their genitalia as we humans do, they in fact are animals, not human.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is. 

But because I believe that spay and neuter cause cancer, and possibly other issues. Because they will not spay women for no reason, and that women who do need full hysterectomys have a shorter life expectancy than those who have been left an ovary. 

I am not a fan of fixing what isn't broken.

I do not believe that keeping animals intact means they will be bred. 

But if you want to, it is up to you to do so, I just do not understand why, thank goodness-- that almost sounds like you are afraid of a dog having its pieces parts. I do not understand that thinking, but I have run into it.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I think he's gorgeous. BYB dog or not. No idea of the lines, but he looks fit to me. I love how thick and masculine his head looks, but it's not 'too' much, like I see in some dogs. Could probably use a bit thicker bone, but I think he's a good looking dog. But that's just my very, very unprofessional opinion. 

And I'm on your side of the fence on breeding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But how do we know that. They spend enough time absorbed with them. The first thing they check out on another is usually that. How do we KNOW that they would not prefer to remain intact.

But we are their owners and if we feel that is the best course of action for the dog, that is what we can do as owners. As "guardians" well, I just don't know if you should be able to alter forever something that you do not own -- just a plug on yet another reason not to buy into terms like pet parent and pet guardians. Much happier being a pet owner.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

See the picture now. Color, black -- usually working, byb, or american show -- not usual in German show. Straighter top line, suggests working or BYB. The short tail suggests byb. It looks a little tall for working lines as well though hard to tell with a picture. Nice head and ears though.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Sorry, I love animals and I love my dogs, but they are not humans and I do not view dogs or animals as humans that are to be given the same rights we have. Does that make me a bad dog owner? No, I treat my dogs better than some people treat their own kids.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

His tail is longer than that in the pic, it's a bit curly at the tip. Like it makes a ? almost


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

I like that he has a strong hind end too.very focused stare,bright clean eyes and glossy coat.nice tight feet broad opeb chest not narrow and constricted so room to breath.and i've been under the impression that leaving males intact increases their chance of prostate cancer too.and yes less chance of fututre ooooopppssses.and yes i've seen our male change 100% for the better after he was snipped.before he was cut nobody wanted him and he was on his way to the golden gate but we decided to take him.we made a great choice by taking him and having him cut.but your sire looks beautiful by any standard.


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## Locknload (Nov 8, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> Because I am pro spay/neutering your animals when you don't intend on breeding!


You get props from me for this!


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I never had my first dog fixed but that was only because the vet told me not to do anything that wasn't necessary for surgery. He had a heart murmur and they didn't want to put him under anesthesia unless absolutely necessary.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Is it possible to add a link to the pedigree of the sire? Since you have papers you must have a registration number? This way others can help you identify the lines that your pup comes from. Would be easier than just looking at a photo. If your not comfortable doing that, it's okay. Just a suggestion.

Adorable dog either way.

As for the neutering.... after doing my research my 20 month old male will remain intact. Too much unnecessary risk to neuter, in my opinion. I want to keep my boy as healthy as possible for as long as possible which is why I choose to keep him intact, feed raw, vaccinate minimally and keep him in ideal shape (body and mind). 

I can understand why people neuter but for me most of those reason do not override the health issues that can arise in neutered males. Again, my opinion.

Cute photo though.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

He is a beautiful dog, especially that head. I love Black GSDs(I got one!).

I am pro spaying/neutering, I volunteer at a shelter after seeing so many dogs end up there(we just had 8 PB GSDs dumped at the shelter), don't want to breed and probably won't show.I don't want to deal with heat cycles or the chance of any cancer or anything oops litters. I will wait until the dog is fully mature though.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Oh, I have the registration form for Riley to get his AKC certificate. I just haven't sent it in to register him or anything. I haven't even really looked at the paper. Hold on a minute and let me look to see if there is a number.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I think that most people aren't smart enough or capable of owning (containing) an intact dog, male or female. So unless they plan on breeding, most people should get their dogs fixed, IMO.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Okay, I have the "Dog Registration Application" I haven't sent it in or anything; Don't know if I'm actually going to but this says that the sire is Big Bear Kodiak II DN21490404


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> I think that most people aren't smart enough or capable of owning (containing) an intact dog, male or female. So unless they plan on breeding, most people should get their dogs fixed, IMO.


I agree to an extent. 

This is my opinion and I don't mean to hurt any feelings here, but... in my opinion, I think that if you can't contain or be a responsible pet owner of an intact (or not) animal, then you shouldn't get one. Training, proper supervision, and common sense go a long way.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I agree to an extent.
> 
> This is my opinion and I don't mean to hurt any feelings here, but... in my opinion, I think that if you can't contain or be a responsible pet owner of an intact (or not) animal, then you shouldn't get one. Training, proper supervision, and common sense go a long way.


True, but a lot of intact dogs will try to get away to try and find a mate and some people don't keep on top of that. But I agree.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> Okay, I have the "Dog Registration Application" I haven't sent it in or anything; Don't know if I'm actually going to but this says that the sire is Big Bear Kodiak II DN21490404


If you have the mother's information, you can register your pup in the PDB, this may bring up some more information (or not). It's worth a try. When I plugged in the # to the PDB, nothing came up.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> True, but a lot of intact dogs will try to get away to try and find a mate and *some people don't keep on top of that*. But I agree.


That is when "training, proper supervision and common sense" play a role though.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Yeah, I just looked up both, nothing came up. I keep forgetting about that PDB website.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

If you have the information, you can put all the dogs in there. Including the sire and dam of your pup.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If you can handle a intact dog responsibly then go ahead. If you can handle a altered dog responsibly then go ahead.

If you fail to do either, then you shouldn't have a dog.Period.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Locknload said:


> You get props from me for this!


Me too and it DECREASES the chance of cancer down the road, not increases it


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Actually the info is not so simple as to the cancer risk benefits of neutering males. I leave my males intact to reduce health risks after doing a fair amount of reading and research. The common and often touted "wisdom" is that altering is better for animals, but you will not find consensus on this even within the veterinary community.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

from the picture, given his build i would lean towards working lines, though thats as far as i can say. he's solidly built with a pretty big head.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think he's gorgeous tho I am partial to those black dawgs myself..He looks like a dog I would want living in my house)

As for spaying/neutering, my feeling is, all dogs and cats that are not used for breeding/showing (and most likely some that are being bred and shouldn't be),should be spayed/neutered. 

Why? It's why there are millions of dogs/cats in shelters/rescues, because of irresponsible ownership. 

I'm sure there are many that believe there are health risks by doing so, but there are risks with everything.


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## overtgabby (Aug 2, 2010)

Why spay and nueter? I dont know what kind of cancer spaying causes, but Not spaying can increase the chance of breast cancer, for one. Also, accidents can happen. My female GSD is pregnant because my husband let our boy in to play with her, not realizing she was in heat till it was too late. I am Not a back yard breeder, my dogs, though purebred, are unproven, and I was not intending to breed them. Also, how many get put down at shelters? if the parents had had something removed, these dogs wouldnt be there. I work at a shelter, and there are plenty of purebred unwanted dogs there. All 3 of my GSDs are rescues.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

selzer said:


> It is.
> 
> But because I believe that spay and neuter cause cancer, and possibly other issues. Because they will not spay women for no reason, and that women who do need full hysterectomys have a shorter life expectancy than those who have been left an ovary.
> 
> ...


Selzer, you don't like when people lecture you about being pro speuter, so I dont' think you should lecture either when someone wants to do it.

If this poster does not want the stress and responsibility of making sure their dog doesn't have an accident with the dog down the street that is heat...then let them do it.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Originally Posted by *selzer*  
_It is. 

But because I believe that spay and neuter cause cancer, and possibly other issues. Because they will not spay women for no reason, and that women who do need full hysterectomys have a shorter life expectancy than those who have been left an ovary. 

I am not a fan of fixing what isn't broken.

I do not believe that keeping animals intact means they will be bred. 

But if you want to, it is up to you to do so, I just do not understand why, thank goodness-- that almost sounds like you are afraid of a dog having its pieces parts. I do not understand that thinking, but I have run into it._



_THATS JUST IT. DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE AND SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS SUCH.DOES NOT MEAN LESS CARE OR WHAT NOT JUST TREAT THEM AS THEY ARE ....DOGS.DOGS CANNOT CHOOSE WHERE AS HUMANS CAN.THERE FOR THERE IS NO COMPARISON NOR SHOULD THERE BE.THE BEST WE CAN DO IS GO FROM PAST HISTORY AND EXPERIENCE AND DO WHAT IS TRULY BEST IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE ANIMAL.AND MAYBE SOMETIMES WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WELFARE OF ALL THOSE DUMPED MUTTS AND SUCH,THE UNWANTED,THE OVERWHELMING CRISIS OF POORLY BRED ANIMALS,THE BEST CHOICE IS NOT ALWAYS WHAT YOU WANT OR BELIEVE IN RATHER BE THE BETTER OWNER AND PERSON FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT SPEAK BUT NEVERLESS ARE THERE WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO CHOOSE THEM AMONG THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS THAT HAD AN OWNER OR BREEDER WHO DID NOT MAKE SUCH A WISE CHOICE FOR THEM.SPAY/NEUTER TAKES SOME OF THE RISK AWAY FOR FUTURE ANIMALS._


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> .
> 
> I have papers on my pup, well papers to register him but I'm not going to. I see no purpose in registering when I'm not showing him or doing anything else.


 
I'd love to see you register your dog for registration, identification as well as data collection (for the GSD). I think it just helps those in the future keep up with the statistics regarding the GSD.


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## DonP (Apr 13, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> Because I am pro spay/neutering your animals when you don't intend on breeding!


 
I agree. The HSUS estimates 3-4 million dogs a year are euthanized in the US. There are just too many dogs.


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## StryderPup (May 16, 2009)

He looks beautiful to me! 
I strongly believe in neutering and/spaying. Stryder was neutered at 6 months. His mom was black with tan stockings and his dad was a black and tan saddle back. He took more after his mom, he is a blanket black and tan


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Lilie said:


> I'd love to see you register your dog for registration, identification as well as data collection (for the GSD). I think it just helps those in the future keep up with the statistics regarding the GSD.


After everything I did register him last night. Solely for the purpose of seeing his background. I want to see what his lines are.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and let us know, I think the dad is gorgeous and now am curious about his backround


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> and let us know, I think the dad is gorgeous and now am curious about his backround


Okay, I will! I did it online so hopefully it will be in the mail soon.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Looks like a black GSD to me. Pet quality but still nice looking.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Very cute pup!

I'm absolutely against spaying and neutering dogs if it is avoidable, too. 



Deuce said:


> Me too and it DECREASES the chance of cancer down the road, not increases it


Have you read much about the risks of spaying or neutering dogs? I've read and have TONS of articles book marked that talk about INCREASED risks of cancer after neutering your dog. Maybe you should look into it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And some of the current thought is that neutering INCREASES the chances of prostate cancer instead of the other way around. 

My problem is not with spaying or neutering, as I said, that is the owner's choice GSDELsa. 

GSDElsa, it is not ok for me to lecture on one of the subjects I am most concerned with, but it is ok for you to lecture me. OK. Guess I understand THAT rule now. 


What my problem with is the "thank goodness!" What is expected once this awesome surgery is performed? Is superstar obedience champion dog going to suddenly turn up in the skin of your former intact dog? 

If you cannot contain an intact dog, you should not own a dog. Do you really believe that sex drive is stronger than prey drive? I suppose it can be in some animals. But if there is a possibility of your dog getting loose, fix the possibility, make your dog safer, don't fix the dog. Because spayed and neutered dogs can be killed by farmers, or run over by cars as readily as their intact cousins.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

selzer said:


> My problem is not with spaying or neutering, as I said, that is the owner's choice GSDELsa.
> 
> GSDElsa, it is not ok for me to lecture on one of the subjects I am most concerned with, but it is ok for you to lecture me. OK. Guess I understand THAT rule now.


No, it's not a rule. But you're always ranting and raving when people try to go pro-speuter on you...so I guess I don't understand why you would turn around and do the same thing to someone else?

You can certainly do it...I just see it as a tit for tat type of thing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

overtgabby said:


> Why spay and nueter? I dont know what kind of cancer spaying causes, but Not spaying can increase the chance of breast cancer, for one. Also, accidents can happen. My female GSD is pregnant because my husband let our boy in to play with her, not realizing she was in heat till it was too late. I am Not a back yard breeder, my dogs, though purebred, are unproven, and I was not intending to breed them. Also, how many get put down at shelters? if the parents had had something removed, these dogs wouldnt be there. I work at a shelter, and there are plenty of purebred unwanted dogs there. All 3 of my GSDs are rescues.


 
Yes, if you subject your bitch to an increased risk of osteosarcoma, and hemangiosarcoma, and other issues, you can pretty much eliminate the possibility of breast cancer. 

Mammary cancer seems to usually hit bitches at ten years old and older. I am sure there are probably cases of younger dogs getting it, but it seems like it is more of an elder dog problem. I will risk that. Bone cancer and hemangiosarcoma, both having terrible prognosis, often hit dogs at four or five years of age, maybe even younger. 

Dogs seem to live longer intact. 

No I will not alter the dogs that I have that I never intend to breed. No way. I care about them too. If I believe that spay/neuter has negative health consequences, why would I do it to any of my dogs.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm going to nueter Brody, but I will do it when he is around 2.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> No, it's not a rule. But you're always ranting and raving when people try to go pro-speuter on you...so I guess I don't understand why you would turn around and do the same thing to someone else?
> 
> You can certainly do it...I just see it as a tit for tat type of thing.


So its your job to keep my ranting and raving to a minimum.

I BELIEVE that vets and HSUS are giving only half of the story when it comes to spay/neuter. They do not bother to tell of the risks, they blow them off. They even LIE and tell you the opposite. People believe them.

I believe this is a terrible injustice. People should be aware that there are other studies that tell a different story. When people say something like it decreases the risk of prostate cancer, or the dog will suffer if it is not neutered, I don't like to let that stuff go by. 

Too many pups are neutered in the teenager stage. If people just wait a bit, those dogs will come back to their senses with or without their reproductive organs. But if people DO neuter them, then when the behavior improves they blame the neuter. 

Why "thank-goodness!"? What will it DO for the dog, really?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> No, it's not a rule.* But you're always ranting and raving when people try to go pro-speuter on you...so I guess I don't understand why you would turn around and do the same thing to someone else?*
> 
> You can certainly do it...I just see it as a tit for tat type of thing.


Could you please explain this a little better. 

When people ask about spay-neuter, I usually do say I am against it and give reasons.

When people down in the breeding section are being battered about thinking about breeding and everyone says spay spay spay. I might say that spaying isn't the answer, becoming educated is.

I do not understand what you mean about "so I guess I don't understand why you would turn around and do the same thing to someone else" 

Could you say that a different way so I can figure out what your are trying to say?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't HSUS up there with PETA?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

This is a picture thread. It was anyway. Even if it was in bloodlines or general info, this is just going to go around and around. Go find one of the eleven billionty other speuter threads to talk on or start a new one. ETA - forgot to say please and thank you. 

Beautiful black GSD. Hopefully is a healthy well tempered dog! Genetics is about 80-20 so use your 20 as you best see fit.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I LOVE his head. I'll look for your post with the pedigree information. Huge kudos for getting your pup altered. 
Sheilah (I AM a spayed bitch)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think he looks like he has some DDR blood in him. I love his head, too! 
Can't believe how this thread got hi-jacked!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Geeze.. how does a simple question about possible bloodlines turn into a major lecture on spaying/neutering? Talk about running off topic at the first opportunity in favor of pushing one's personal agenda ....

Anyway, to the *original* question..... , the overall appearance of the dog to me indicates working lines. Based on overall structure, body type and head shape I'd expect a goodly percentage of DDR or Czech lines in there.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There are idiot owners of both altered and intact dogs. If you fail at both, then you shouldn't have a dog.

Back on topic-I can't wait to find out what your pup's lineage is!


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

W0W W0W AND W0W. I would love to have a solid black male that looked that handsome :wub:


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Yeah this thread did take a turn off subject. Apparently some delve too deeply into my simple statement of "Thank Goodness" that can be taken in more than ONE context. Oh well, Thanks for all the answers though.


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## silvertongued17 (Dec 2, 2010)

I must say this neuter discussion is mighty hilarious. Large breeds, small too, like the GSDs should not be neutered before absolute maturity unless absolutely necessary for medical reasons. Early neutering has a detrimental effect on the health of the dog and it makes perfect biological sense. Testosterone, in males, is required for muscle tone and closing of the growth plates as well as many other important functions. Neutered shepherds can be spotted a mile away, with a tall gaunt form, and are at a higher risk for every type of cancer (except testicular since neutered males don't have testicles). Hip dysplasia would seem like a easy sell if your growth plates take longer to close causing your hip angles to be off. Yes the dogs may require an in tune owner to make sure the pack dominance is maintained , but after the initial NILIF demo your dog will happily take to his place in the pack. He, being the subordinate, does not get to mate with anything and marking the alphas territory would be an extremely bad idea for him. Vets rarely have any usable knowledge when it comes to neutering or even nutrition, still pushing science diet, when everyone knows raw is where true owners reside. And yea, actual studies prove my ideas. http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf *Rant over*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Welcome silvertongued17, what lines do you think the dog in this thread is from?? 
I agree with your post, btw...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Well if someone wants until the dog is of maturity to neuter/spay then fine. I think most can agree on that.

I really love the OP's dog head though.


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## silvertongued17 (Dec 2, 2010)

Haha sorry I almost forgot about the OP's question. Sorry when I get side tracked it takes over. I would also have to agree with the working bloodlines, and mix. Czech is a good guess, but it seems as if the lines are too straight. It's as if the dog was bred in a rectangular box.  Given the angles of the back and head shape the pup would seem to be a mix. Without anymore information it would be hard to speculate, but I must admit I like his appearance. He won't show, but that's fine because show GSDs are bastards of their breed.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> After everything I did register him last night. Solely for the purpose of seeing his background. I want to see what his lines are.


Wonderful!


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

The picture shows a healthy, well cared for boy. Handsome, too! Hope your dog is healthy as well. I agree with those who spay/neuter unless they are breeding to improve the breed, and knowledgable enough about the topic to do it correctly. That leaves 99.9% of us out of the mix, myself included.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

silvertongued17 said:


> Haha sorry I almost forgot about the OP's question. Sorry when I get side tracked it takes over. I would also have to agree with the working bloodlines, and mix. Czech is a good guess, but it seems as if the lines are too straight. It's as if the dog was bred in a rectangular box.  Given the angles of the back and head shape the pup would seem to be a mix. Without anymore information it would be hard to speculate, but I must admit I like his appearance. He won't show, *but that's fine because show GSDs are bastards of their breed*.


I agree with most of your two posts. And welcome to the board. 

Not sure what you mean about show GSDs being bastards of their breed. I mean, they can trace their ancestry. Are you opposed to German showline dogs, American showlines, British or Austrailian or Canadian Showlines, American Specialty showlines, or just all showlines in general.

Just a word to the wise though, we have members with showline dogs, and they feel their dogs are the best dogs just like working line people feel their dogs are the best dogs. You do not have to agree with them. 

Just trying to coexist with the owners of the various types of dogs, because many of the issues that we discuss are the same regardless to what lines the dogs are.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

And sometime you might find that they are teaching you something-like how to show your dog-and they are welcoming to you-its nice-never knew I'd enjoy it


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

selzer said:


> I agree with most of your two posts. And welcome to the board.
> 
> Not sure what you mean about show GSDs being bastards of their breed. I mean, they can trace their ancestry. Are you opposed to German showline dogs, American showlines, British or Austrailian or Canadian Showlines, American Specialty showlines, or just all showlines in general.
> 
> ...



While I may not agree with your opinion on spay/neuter I definitely agree with these very wise words!! 
:thumbup:


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

I think he's a lovely dog. I don't promote backyard breeding, but I have to admit I've had a couple BYB dogs, and they were wonderful. (I don't know my Layla girl's background.) 
As for spaying and neutering, talk to me about NOT doing it when "four million cats and dogs—about one every eight seconds—are NOT put down in U.S. shelters each year." People think purebred dogs aren't put down? They are fooling themselves.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

Heagler870: To me, that is a freakin gorgeous sire. He reminds me of a lot of working line dogs I have met, also dogs with DDR blood in them, as another poster (onyx?) already mentioned. In fact, he looks a lot like a police K-9 I met 10 years ago who was a German import. I'll bet your pup is going to be one very beautiful GSD--congrats! My favorite GSD's are black, with cream colored legs, and those red/honey colored eyes that some call "demon eyes" because in combination with the black head, make the dog look really scary.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Okay, I just got Riley's AKC paper's in and I did a little bit of research from pedigree database. It looks like Great grandpa, or great sire, However you want to say it was titled in SCHH3 and 34X IPO3 WUSV 3 TIMES Kkl 2. The name is Scott Von Haus Antverpa. Whatever that is. That is on Riley's dam's side. One of the Great Dams Ursel T Palmaleinehof was titled in 7X SCHH3, 10X IPO3, IWR3 Kkl 2. 

On the Sire's side noone was titled or anything. I'm not sure exactly if the sire is American line or what. I can't find anything.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I think he is beautiful! Would love it if I could have found an all black shepherd. Just stunning!




Heagler870 said:


> Yeah this thread did take a turn off subject. Apparently some delve too deeply into my simple statement of "Thank Goodness" that can be taken in more than ONE context. Oh well, Thanks for all the answers though.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> Okay, I just got Riley's AKC paper's in and I did a little bit of research from pedigree database. It looks like Great grandpa, or great sire, However you want to say it was titled in SCHH3 and 34X IPO3 WUSV 3 TIMES Kkl 2. The name is Scott Von Haus Antverpa. Whatever that is. That is on Riley's dam's side. One of the Great Dams Ursel T Palmaleinehof was titled in 7X SCHH3, 10X IPO3, IWR3 Kkl 2.
> 
> On the Sire's side noone was titled or anything. I'm not sure exactly if the sire is American line or what. I can't find anything.


Antverpa and Palmeinehof are two very good Belgian working-line kennels. 

If you got AKC papers on your dog, then many of the US schutzhund titles wouldn't show up, so lack of titles on an AKC pedigree doesn't *necessarily* mean lack of careful breeding. But it's also possible that someone just took their backyard dog and bred it to a nice import dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

He doesn't look purebred to me. Something is off. I could be wrong though.


edit: looks like I was wrong. Just read the last couple of posts.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Nice looking dog but not German-type or American show type. Shallow chest, no angulation. Looks like my son's dog, which was a very nice dog for 14 years.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

So Paddy, are you saying he's not a German Shepherd or not a German Shepherd from Germany?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> So Paddy, are you saying he's not a German Shepherd or not a German Shepherd from Germany?


I'm saying he's doesn't have that heavy German look. I'm sure there is a better word than 'heavy' ....... maybe 'substantial'. IMO he definitely looks to be a GSD but that's only one man's opinion.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I was just clarify what you meant by type. I could see that being taken in two different ways.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I think he is handsome!! I love the big blocky head! His ear set is a little too close for my liking but I am unbelievably picky with the ears!! Im glad that you got all that information, how cool!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I know what paddy means. He looks off. Just not like the German Shepherd I am used to. Almost a little wolfish because he doesn't have any angulation, short tail and the way he stands.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

His tail isn't short. It's the way the photo is is shot. I know Riley has a really long tail and it curves a bit at the end. I've gotten some comments on why is his tail so long. My parents think its a little too long too. I should post a picture of Riley's back end. lol


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

How does it curve? Does it curve all the way into a circle?


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Looks like a question mark almost. Not all the way in a circle.It's not a huge curve, its just noticeable. When he poos it straightens out. lol


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## IntheDawgHaus (Nov 11, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> Because I am pro spay/neutering your animals when you don't intend on breeding! Is that a problem for you?


GOOD FOR YOU. There should be more quality dogs, not just more dogs.
Susan, Max, Aeryn, Xoe


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