# History of breed question



## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

I hope this thread is in the right spot. I was wondering why the sloped back in the showlines is popular? Is this something that will go out of style potentially? Are the slopes healthy? I personally like the straighter backs of the workinglines but when I search for straight backed german shepherds I come across some results claiming the breeder is breeding "old fashioned German shepherds." I wasn't sure what that's about. I know the American line has the most extreme slope. I just learned there British lines with straight backs that are not working dogs but I can't find much about them. 

Mostly I am just curious. We have a wgsl puppy and I like that her back doesnt seem as dramatic but if we get another puppy in the future and go with another wgsl that is something I find annoying. 

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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The best summary I can find of what happened is this: The Martin Shepherd

There's a lot of good information in the Iceberg Breeders thread on this forum, too, but it's spread out in the thread which is a very, very long thread. Iceberg Breeders

Another excellent article is this one by Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook German shepherds: https://leerburg.com/pdf/downfall.pdf

I would guess that you are very new to the breed. In order to understand just why what has happened to the German showlines is such a bad thing, you need to know that the GSD was always intended to be a working breed. Von Stephanitz, the breed founder said:


> The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs. Utility is the true criterion of beauty.


The test of this working ability was schutzhund. In Germany, no German shepherd is allowed to breed unless it has at least level 1 of the schutzhund test. However, the test is constantly being watered down, and the name keeps changing. It's now be renamed IGP, and they've eliminated the blind search and the dumb bell retrieve over the jump from the Level 1 test.


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## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> The best summary I can find of what happened is this: The Martin Shepherd
> 
> There's a lot of good information in the Iceberg Breeders thread on this forum, too, but it's spread out in the thread which is a very, very long thread. Iceberg Breeders
> 
> Another excellent article is this one by Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook German shepherds: https://leerburg.com/pdf/downfall.pdf


Thank you so much! I will check these out

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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I will look at these as well. I know the German Shepherd was intended to always be a herding/working breed, but I never knew why people started breeding sloped backs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The reason behind the curved back of the showline GSD was that the Martin brothers believed the back should be like the arch of a bridge, and a curved back was stronger than a straight back. There is absolutely no research to back this up, and some studies have show the current conformation of the show line actually prevent correct movement.

According to the breed standard, a completely level back is not correct, either, so those who are pushing an 'old-fashioned' straight-backed dog don't really know what they are talking about. The 'true' back, the part between the withers and croup should be level, but the croup is supposed to slope:



> The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.


What makes the back appear to be sloping is the angulation of the hind quarters. Extreme angulation of the hind first was developed by the American show lines, but now is being bred into the German show lines as well. When the dog is stretched out into a show stack, the hind quarters are lower than the forequarters, given the impression of an extremely sloped back. If the dog were standing normally, you would see the way the dog is stacked gives a false impression.

The angulation of the hind, the result of a long upper thigh, gives the dog an impressive reach at the trot. This flashy trot comes at a price though - excessive length of the upper thigh sometimes makes the hind legs weak, Many of these dogs are also cow-hocked, and some can just barely hold a stack without help from their handler.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

“When the dog is stretched out into a show stack, the hind quarters are lower than the forequarters, given the impression of an extremely sloped back. If the dog were standing normally, you would see the way the dog is stacked gives a false impression”.

Sooooo. Is your remark that it’s “bred” into the dog or it’s strictly in the way the dog is stacked? Suggesting it’s both, would seem erroneous to me. (Actually, it is erroneous).

Just curious.


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## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> The reason behind the curved back of the showline GSD was that the Martin brothers believed the back should be like the arch of a bridge, and a curved back was stronger than a straight back. There is absolutely no research to back this up, and some studies have show the current conformation of the show line actually prevent correct movement.
> 
> According to the breed standard, a completely level back is not correct, either, so those who are pushing an 'old-fashioned' straight-backed dog don't really know what they are talking about. The 'true' back, the part between the withers and croup should be level, but the croup is supposed to slope:
> 
> ...


This is really sad. I read the roach back has to do with the show ring as well. I didn't realize it is the coup that is sloped. I hate that stacked position you were talking about then where the slope is more exaggerated. I just read the first article about the martin brothers. I hope there will be pushback. I read Shiloh shepherds are the attempt to have dogs more in line with German Shepherds of the past but I don't know anything about them. 

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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The american showline’s topline is not sloped it is straight, the rear angulation and the way the dog is stacked the back will appear sloped. The wgsl back appears to have a slight curve in the back but the actual back the spine is straight but the way it aligns with the lower back/croup us what it gives that slight curved appearance. There are extremes as well. A German Shepherd without any angulations is just as structurally restricted as a dog with severe angulation. Dogs with no angulation and straight backs will often sway and break down quickly. With joints easily affected by arthritis from wear and tear. Angulation is what helps the impact on joints from breaking down. Extremes of all kinds should be looked down upon. There are moderate showlines just as well as extremes. The extremes in showlines are usually emphasized. My advise take a look at the dogs.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

“Dogs with no angulation and straight backs will often sway and break down quickly”.

Says who? That’s either dead wrong or sophomoric. 

You care to match this dog - in all GSD facets......











..... against this












(If you straighten this dog up, it’s still a slope back).

Where do you think the pelvic / hip bone issues are starting first????

Again, to all NEW forum members - Careful what you read here.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Two pictures of Westminister BIS winner, Rumor Has it. Notice how sloped her back appears in the stack, while the back is only slightly sloped when gaiting.






Lockenhaus' Rumor Has It V Kenlyn


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Lockenhaus' Rumor Has It V Kenlyn




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> I read Shiloh shepherds are the attempt to have dogs more in line with German Shepherds of the past but I don't know anything about them.


Old Greg, I had a Shiloh briefly. Her temperament was so spooky and timid that I rehomed her to a pet home. The breed founder died about 6 years ago (lung cancer) and the breed has gone into the crapper since then. Steer WELL CLEAR!

Tina Barber really did have the best of intentions. She saw what was happening to the GSD in the 1970's and 80's and wanted to fix it by starting her own breed. Unfortunately, temperaments became a problem. During the time I had my dog, the Shiloh training forum was full of owners complaining about how fearful and timid their dogs were.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Damicodric said:


> “Dogs with no angulation and straight backs will often sway and break down quickly”.
> 
> Says who? That’s either dead wrong or sophomoric.
> 
> ...


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> Two pictures of Westminister BIS winner, Rumor Has it. Notice how sloped her back appears in the stack, while the back is only slightly sloped when gaiting.


This has nothing to do with anything, but I had a really bad night, and watching Ken and Rumor run cheered me right up. 

As for angulation, I have a very moderate ASL. She isn’t “slope-y”. I can stack her to look extreme, she can stand four square and her back is level, and when she gaits around a ring, no butts are dragging. For all of you who never go to all breed shows, extreme angulation is no longer the norm. My girl has won more often than not, has several best of breeds, and is Group placing. She’s also the most athletic dog I’ve ever had.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Look, we can argue about the back of the German shepherd until the cows come home, and we're not going to agree. I've done what I can to explain how and why the differences in structure arose, and I don't want to get into an argument over which is correct. I think it's the deterioration in the working ability of the breed that we really need to be worrying about: 
Stephanitz said, as I quoted above: _Utility is the true criterion of beauty. _

And even more important is this quote from Alfred Hahn, breeder of the famous Bernd and Bodo vom Lierberg:



> Alfred Hahn from the kennel 'vom Busecker Schloss' was very clear. He told me, "Koos, if you want to improve the German shepherd dog...consider this for the future. One can improve the anatomy of the German shepherd in only a few generations. *But to improve temperament, character and the necessary working abilities takes much longer."*


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## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Old Greg, I had a Shiloh briefly. Her temperament was so spooky and timid that I rehomed her to a pet home. The breed founder died about 6 years ago (lung cancer) and the breed has gone into the crapper since then. Steer WELL CLEAR!
> 
> Tina Barber really did have the best of intentions. She saw what was happening to the GSD in the 1970's and 80's and wanted to fix it by starting her own breed. Unfortunately, temperaments became a problem. During the time I had my dog, the Shiloh training forum was full of owners complaining about how fearful and timid their dogs were.


Oh wow! Thank you for the warning. I had no idea. That is awful. 

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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

_“Utility is the true criterion of beauty”._

Agreed. So find me the utility in this. Upon maturity, later years, this dog isn’t threatening a turtle. 










I’d no more go to a Labradoodle event, than look at any GSD event “featuring” this animal - with his right rear hock on the ground.

Now, I’d watch this dog all day long:


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The dog showline people I know refer to as the ideal guy. I don’t see any reason he couldn’t perform physically. This is a world sieger, and I don’t see any of the extremes people hate. Would I say he’s the most athletic bases on conformation, no. I do think the lack of working ability is overstated though.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Th


Damicodric said:


> _“Utility is the true criterion of beauty”._
> 
> Agreed. So find me the utility in this. Upon maturity, later years, this dog isn’t threatening a turtle.
> 
> ...





Damicodric said:


> _“Utility is the true criterion of beauty”._
> 
> Agreed. So find me the utility in this. Upon maturity, later years, this dog isn’t threatening a turtle.
> 
> ...


Your picture you posted is of a west German showline from crufts in the U.K. . - the dog with his tail blocking his hock???and a dog which appears to have an extreme roached top line. This dog Was put up to win by a judge Over a more moderate structured dog. This caused quite a commotion and crufts I believe the judge was penailized - a step in the right direction. Crufts also do not stack dogs anymore supposably. I’m not from the U.K. or have been to a Crufts dog show. You can not represent any line as extreme as the entirety.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> Crufts also do not stack dogs anymore supposably. I’m not from the U.K. or have been to a Crufts dog show. You can not represent any line as extreme as the entirety.


IMHO the best way to judge a dogs conformation is without the assistance of a handler, it would eliminate a whole lot of manipulation. I wish they'd eliminate the stack in all venues.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

“Are the slopes healthy?” Was this question not in the OP’s remarks?

“The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short”. Is this not part of the original breed standard?

Hey. I’m not looking real hard for these pictures, guys. They’re everywhere in almost any conformation event and put forth elsewhere as representatives of the breed. I’m not picking and choosing.

I don’t care that some owners prefer their dog’s rear end 9” off the ground, but when it’s posited that straight backs break down often or faster and then defended with pictures of I don’t know what and an anonymous writing, then I know I’m reading something unhelpful.

Again, others prefer that - great. Have at it.

I’d rather not read an implication that that structure is in any way physically superior to dogs that are more in line with the original intent of the breed.

Anyway.....


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Oops I just removed my comment myself! I have no more patience. Cheers!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Damicodric said:


> “Are the slopes healthy?” Was this question not in the OP’s remarks?
> 
> “The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short”. Is this not part of the original breed standard?
> 
> ...


Straight back dogs do tend to sway with age. You can see it in a lot of breeds. Most working lines do not have a perfectly straight back. There is a gradual curve to it as well. The difference is it tends to be exaggerated more in showlines. The working line dog you posted also looks to have a slight curve. It’s hard to say for sure because the picture you posted is a terrible angle. If you stack her and take the picture from the proper side angle, I’m willing to bet you would see it. The akc/ckc have different ideas from the rest of the world on how German shepherds should look, so dogs from those shows are an entirely different discussion. To keep this in perspective, I’m only talking about west German show lines, high lines, or dogs bred to the international standard as set by the s.v. The UK also does there own thing, so you can throw those crufts pictures out to. Moderate slope and moderate angulation is usually far more athletic than no angulation or extreme. What happens in dog shows, especially breed specific shows, is more extreme conformation gets rewarded and wins. This is a working line with moderate angulation.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I know it’s been a while since there have been serious discussions about structure, but there was one previously discussing working lines to avoid in a pedigree due to genetic back issues. I’m beginning my pup search and was looking for a few older threads for reference.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

That is not a straight back and if you aren’t familiar, that dog is FCI all breed IPO 3 world champion Chris spod Lazov. You can pick whatever random shepherd with a straight back you want, but I doubt they even remotely stand up to that guy in any aspect of a German shepherd. I’m not telling you the show line structure is better, I prefer working lines obviously and I think that a good looking working line is the better looking dog. I do believe you are arguing for something that is wrong though.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

I’m not arguing FOR anything.

I’m simply challenging an assertion made here that in my 25 years of keeping 9 GSD’s, I have never experienced. 

Should one of my dogs ever break down or sway, I’ll circle back.

(Next....)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Built to work all day and then some.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

OldGreg said:


> I hope this thread is in the right spot. I was wondering why the sloped back in the showlines is popular? Is this something that will go out of style potentially? Are the slopes healthy? I personally like the straighter backs of the workinglines but when I search for straight backed german shepherds I come across some results claiming the breeder is breeding "old fashioned German shepherds." I wasn't sure what that's about. I know the American line has the most extreme slope. I just learned there British lines with straight backs that are not working dogs but I can't find much about them.
> 
> Mostly I am just curious. We have a wgsl puppy and I like that her back doesnt seem as dramatic but if we get another puppy in the future and go with another wgsl that is something I find annoying.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727A using Tapatalk


most of it has a lot to do with their posing. I have two German show dogs(not American) and neither has sloped backs, they have strait backs when standing naturally.-the American show dogs consistently have more of a sloped back then the other two. There are many great working line dogs who have sloped backs and show dogs with no slopes. Some people like the sloped backs and some like the working dog strait backs, some like the low drive(mostly show but not always) dogs and some like the work(high drive) dogs-I will never push my view of style onto you if you like any of the main three lines just learn and go with what YOU like because the world is big enough for all three lines.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

a lot of it has to do with their posing. I have two German show dogs(not American) and neither has sloped backs, they have strait backs when standing naturally, they also work the farm as well as scent/fieldwork-the American show dogs consistently have more of a sloped back then the other two. There are many great working line dogs who have sloped backs and show dogs with no slopes. Some people like the sloped backs and some like the working dog strait backs, some like the low drive(mostly show but not always) dogs and some like the work(high drive) dogs-I will never push my view of style onto you if you like any of the main three lines just learn and go with what YOU like because the world is big enough for all three lines. and yet if you ever watched a German show you would see that a 4 mile run, guns, obedience, etc for a few days is why they have multiple trainers/assistance-there is no way I could run 4 miles. they put those dogs thru **** just for their temperament and work ability so YES a show dog can easily do Schutzhund/work as well and have done so many,many times in the past. those show dogs you see at Crufts is likely American line and thats for their choice. Most breeds have been changed from the original and some of those old German dogs(if you look at their photos from way back) didnt look to good at all.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Dojoson, just FYI - the dog at Crufts everybody was complaining about WAS a German show line. I've seen similar dogs in SV style shows in Canada, too, and it breaks my heart. Wasn't supposed to be this way! REVEALED: the Crufts GSD footage they didn't want you to see


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## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Dojoson, just FYI - the dog at Crufts everybody was complaining about WAS a German show line. I've seen similar dogs in SV style shows in Canada, too, and it breaks my heart. Wasn't supposed to be this way! REVEALED: the Crufts GSD footage they didn't want you to see


I am not at all knowledgable on this, but when I see that dog it just doesn't seem right. The back almost looks roached and even when not posed the back legs just... Idk, as I said I am not knowledable but I just don't like how that looks. I have a wgsl and thankfully she doesn't have that look. She has some slope of course, but not like that dog. 

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## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

dojoson41 said:


> most of it has a lot to do with their posing. I have two German show dogs(not American) and neither has sloped backs, they have strait backs when standing naturally.-the American show dogs consistently have more of a sloped back then the other two. There are many great working line dogs who have sloped backs and show dogs with no slopes. Some people like the sloped backs and some like the working dog strait backs, some like the low drive(mostly show but not always) dogs and some like the work(high drive) dogs-I will never push my view of style onto you if you like any of the main three lines just learn and go with what YOU like because the world is big enough for all three lines.


Your dogs sound like mine  I have a wgsl and when she isn't posed she looks exactly how I like. But when i look at other breeders, I can't tell what the dogs look like naturally and some seem so exaggerated 

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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

OldGreg said:


> I hope this thread is in the right spot. I was wondering why the sloped back in the showlines is popular? Is this something that will go out of style potentially?


Only in the US from what I have seen. Straight line from the neck to the tail. The standard is a straight back with a sloping croup. In proper proportion and not "stacked" for show, you should see exactly that. "Stacking" attenuates the croup but shows the rear angulation better. That is just part of it. There are front angulation and extension that counts as well. In Germany, the showlines may be a little weak on nerves or working scores but the winners have excellent structure. The working lines will often be lacking in a number of physical characteristics. This is not a criticism of working lines - it is a suggestion to not criticize show lines that meet the standard. But if you are talking about American lines and AKC shows - a different story.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Here is a site that has really good info on the breed standard. page 9 and 11 of the pdf shown.






Anatomy of the Dog – German Shepherd Dog Council of Australia







www.gsdcouncilaustralia.org


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## OldGreg (May 18, 2020)

coolgsd said:


> Here is a site that has really good info on the breed standard. page 9 and 11 of the pdf shown.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! Gonna check this out

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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Many working dogs with sloping backs - why?


The other day at the park I noticed a LOT of the gsd's had zero angulation. They looked like malinois with the rear higher. My pup kona also has very little angulation.




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jenny, as I commented on that post, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a GSD to have zero angulation. The back legs have to be able to bend, which means there has to be some sort of an angle! Even the very early GSDs didn't have 'no angulation':

Here's a photo of the first registered German shepherd dog, and you can see he actually had quite a long upper thigh. However, his hock was also rather long, which tended to balance out the length of the thigh: Horand von Grafrath - Wikipedia

If you were to stack Horand the way modern dogs were stacked, with one hind leg stretched out, and the croup pushed down low, it would likely hide the dip in his back, and you'd be able to see that his thigh isn't all that different in length from modern dogs!

He certainly wouldn't do well in the current show ring. The dip in the back would be the main thing that would get him sent to the back of the class. He also looks to have flat feet and weak pasterns.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

look, ok, I don't want to upset anybody, but I'm begging you all, on behalf of the breed:

 please stop drinking the kool aid 

I don't claim to have any answers. I only know that _pretending like_ it isn't a serious issue in_ ALL _gsd types/lines worldwide hasn't done a bit of good yet...

Say what you will. I know in my heart that *NOBODY* loves the breed more than me...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> look, ok, I don't want to upset anybody, but I'm begging you all, on behalf of the breed:
> 
> please stop drinking the kool aid
> 
> ...


Please explain to me your experience with working dogs suffering from poor structure and the results of these findings. No Google. No kool aid. Tell me your experience in these modern dogs that can't work.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I didn’t conduct the breed health survey myself, and I don’t care to share the intimate details of my own personal horror stories here. I will say I swore the breed off decades ago due to health issues, and wouldn’t own one today if he hadn’t been dropped right into my lap. Throughout those decades, the overwhelming majority of pups I placed went to people who “used to keep gsd, before they got so sickly.” Just like me.

As far as "working gsd angulation" my pup is quite moderate, but he can’t even begin to do what my other dogs do in terms of agility. The structure and movement v. stephanitz idealized in his book may have had it’s merits in theory once upon a time, but he’d be horrified if he could see it today.

I only agreed, initially, to feed a new gsd pup in order to tack him (nuclear DNA) onto other breeder’s pedigrees. Nevertheless I can’t resist the temptation of trying to formulate some sort of gsd breeding scheme here, but from what I’m able to gather even 7/8 is high risk now. So I’ll take whatever I can get from gsd temperament, and you can keep your “healthy working gsd angulation."


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The GSD is meant to be a working dog. Even in sport, a dog is either “working” or kind of just going through the motions. Forget about the back and focus on true breed temperament.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I didn’t conduct the breed health survey myself, and I don’t care to share the intimate details of my own personal horror stories here. I will say I swore the breed off decades ago due to health issues, and wouldn’t own one today if he hadn’t been dropped right into my lap. Throughout those decades, the overwhelming majority of pups I placed went to people who “used to keep gsd, before they got so sickly.” Just like me.
> 
> As far as "working gsd angulation" my pup is quite moderate, but he can’t even begin to do what my other dogs do in terms of agility. The structure and movement v. stephanitz idealized in his book may have had it’s merits in theory once upon a time, but he’d be horrified if he could see it today.
> 
> I only agreed, initially, to feed a new gsd pup in order to tack him (nuclear DNA) onto other breeder’s pedigrees. Nevertheless I can’t resist the temptation of trying to formulate some sort of gsd breeding scheme here, but from what I’m able to gather even 7/8 is high risk now. So I’ll take whatever I can get from gsd temperament, and you can keep your “healthy working gsd angulation."


So you are formulating your opinion on a dog that was unwillingly dropped into your lap and decades past horror stories.

I suggest that you get out and watch some dogs work. There's nothing like first hand experience to help formulate an informed opinion.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

If you ever intend to try to breed gsd, I suggest you re-read and attempt to understand the information I related to you in my previous post.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Noted


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

[QUOTE="Sunsilver, post: 9247243, member: 2463
Jenny, as I commented on that post, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a GSD to have zero angulation. The back legs have to be able to bend, which means there has to be some sort of an angle! Even the very early GSDs didn't have 'no angulation':

Here's a photo of the first registered German shepherd dog, and you can see he actually had quite a long upper thigh. However, his hock was also rather long, which tended to balance out the length of the thigh: Horand von Grafrath - Wikipedia

If you were to stack Horand the way modern dogs were stacked, with one hind leg stretched out, and the croup pushed down low, it would likely hide the dip in his back, and you'd be able to see that his thigh isn't all that different in length from modern dogs!

He certainly wouldn't do well in the current show ring. The dip in the back would be the main thing that would get him sent to the back of the class. He also looks to have flat feet and weak pasterns.
[/QUOTE]


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Sunsilver There are German shepherds that lack enough angulation that will contribute to their physical demise. A back that dips is a weak back and often occurs with little angulation. You can see many photos of dogs back in history and some even today where there back are tabletop straight and easy to see how limiting in regards to athletic capabilities as is extremes.


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