# Heat and Reactivness



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Indra seems to have some serious mood-swings and I just got confirmed that she can't be trusted. It took one second of me not being aware that another dog was walked by while I was doing off leash heeling. She didn't break the heeling, I just outed her from the reward, I put the reward into position behind my back, her head turned around and she ran barking, with hackles up, towards the dog and ran him over. 

Nothing happened but this gives me enough info that I did not have her engagement and focus at that second and that she is still reactive. 

However, I am not sure if I should/can blame it on the heat. 
Thankfully the owner let Indra meet her dog after the incident. 

So back to leash heeling we go, also signed up for advanced AKC Obedience classes and already filled them in about her reactivness.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Nothing happened but this gives me enough info that I did not have her engagement and focus at that second and that she is still reactive.
> 
> However, I am not sure if I should/can blame it on the heat.
> Thankfully the owner let Indra meet her dog after the incident.
> ...


I don't think it had anything to do with the heat. You gave the answer to your problem in saying; "I did not have her engagement and focus". Don't allow the "heat" to become an excuse. 

DFrost


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Heat as in weather? Or "heat" as in cycle? I thought she was currently in heat? If that is the case then is she truly reactive? Or just hormonal?

and where were you while off leash healing? On a field training? Or on the street?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DFrost said:


> I don't think it had anything to do with the heat. You gave the answer to your problem in saying; "I did not have her engagement and focus". Don't allow the "heat" to become an excuse.
> 
> DFrost


Yeah, at that moment I really didn't have it and I didn't even notice the dog because I was paying attention to the ball and not on my surroundings. She did not focus on me as she usually does. The last time, the same dog was walked by, she was in a downstay and focused on me, she knew the dog was there but her focus was so good that she didn't care whether he was there or not. 

But all that says is that we have to keep working with distractions, distractions and more distractions, especially around dogs... (on leash)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

She is in heat, and she is reactive. How come someone is walking her dog in your fenced and secure back yard?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Heat as in weather? Or "heat" as in cycle? I thought she was currently in heat? If that is the case then is she truly reactive? Or just hormonal?
> 
> and where were you while off leash healing? On a field training? Or on the street?


It doesn't really matter where we were working. She completely ignored the re-call and therefor me. 

With the SAR Team we primarily work off leash and she is working out of sight already. She's never went after another dog off leash (while we worked) before. So maybe it is hormonal, maybe it's not but even if it is hormonal, it's unacceptable and needs to be addressed. 

They have to be rock solid, especially when they are hormonal...so I can't ignore that. So no more off leash/short lead heeling for now and back to the basics. We are obviously not good enough. "Poop" happens but I am not taking things lightly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

okies...sorry for trying to participate in your conversation. Please carry on. You obviously have it all under control.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

At that moment I obviously didn't have her under control. If I did she would have listened. I did not have her engagement, focus, she turned her head, saw the dog and was gone.
I don't know what your problem is. I know the issue and addressed it and know what needs to be done. The other dog owner is not the one to blame....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, bitches will go after inquisitive dogs during the heat cycle if they are not in their receptive stage. I do not see this as unacceptable behavior, I see it as hormonal behavior. I do not let bitches in heat run around where there are dogs, because they will most likely be inquisitive, and they may get their face rearranged if she is not in the mood. 

A bitch charging at a dog being walked by on leash, I don't know. I haven't experienced that. 

Determining whether or not it is hormonal, does have merit though. I mean, if it is not hormonal and she is reactive to other dogs, why not spay her, I mean you wouldn't want to breed a dog-reactive dog, and by spaying her she will not go into these cycles and that will mean she will be more available for SAR work. 

If it is hormonal, then you can decide whether or not you might want to breed her and if not, spay, and that takes care of the hormonal stuff, making it easier to do SAR work with her.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> Actually, bitches will go after inquisitive dogs during the heat cycle if they are not in their receptive stage. I do not see this as unacceptable behavior, I see it as hormonal behavior. I do not let bitches in heat run around where there are dogs, because they will most likely be inquisitive, and they may get their face rearranged if she is not in the mood.
> 
> A bitch charging at a dog being walked by on leash, I don't know. I haven't experienced that.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do know about the receptive, standing heat, etc. stage and that she will charge at inquisitive dogs, which is why she is kept separated. 

However, about the bolded part... you are kidding, right? 
Do you know how many of the best working dogs/lines are not only reactive but fully blown aggressive towards other dogs? 

Those dogs are living for one reason, to work, trial, re-produce and not to play in a dog park. Socialization is not that big of a deal as it is over here or for me. I don't know any breeder in Germany that cares if the dog is reactive/aggressive towards other dogs or not... :help:

Plus, most of the time it's a handler issue anyways. 

Off leash, she's never been reactive before. On leash, the first couple of seconds she can be reactive. We never had any issues at the dog park before, nor did she have issues with the many dogs at our place. 

The team also lets the dogs run and play together after the training, no issues there either. 

As for getting her spayed, I don't know. I am still thinking about it. If I do it, I can't revert it and what happened with Zenzy sits deep...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> However, about the bolded part... you are kidding, right?
> Do you know how many of the best working dogs/lines are not only reactive but fully blown aggressive towards other dogs?
> 
> Those dogs are living for one reason, to work, trial, re-produce and not to play in a dog park. Socialization is not that big of a deal as it is over here or for me. I don't know any breeder in Germany that cares if the dog is reactive/aggressive towards other dogs or not... :help:


Yikes, I guess this explains why I've been seeing so many Shepherds with reactivity issues (including my own.)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> Yikes, I guess this explains why I've been seeing so many Shepherds with reactivity issues (including my own.)


I don't know. Many of the dogs coming out of these lines are not reactive at all. 

The question is, are these dogs aggressive because of the lack of socialization or is it because it's in their genes. Aggression is supposed to be a part of the German Shepherd and dog reactivness is not exactly a part of the selection process.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

In many SAR organizations, dog aggressiveness is an automatic disqualifier. That would concern me more than the focus issue. 

DFrost


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DFrost said:


> In many SAR organizations, dog aggressiveness is an automatic disqualifier. That would concern me more than the focus issue.
> 
> DFrost


She's not dog aggressive. That is blown out of proportion. If she was aggressive I couldn't have had 7 dogs in the house. She can be trusted in a dog park, with other dogs, I can let her run and play with pretty much any dog. Zenzy was aggressive, Indra isn't. She's not even anywhere near or close being dog aggressive. 

Who knows what was going wrong today. Maybe it is because she's in heat, I can't look into her head.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> However, about the bolded part... you are kidding, right?
> 
> Bolded part: "*Determining whether or not it is hormonal, does have merit though. I mean, if it is not hormonal and she is reactive to other dogs, why not spay her, I mean you wouldn't want to breed a dog-reactive dog, and by spaying her she will not go into these cycles and that will mean she will be more available for SAR work.*"
> 
> ...


Yes, I was serious. I have never been to Germany so I have to go with what folks who have been there have told me. You have lived there and are talking about working line breeders. My friend has lived there and has been there since, and has gone to many sieger shows -- yes we are both into show line dogs.

She says the dogs, intact males have to run around the ring on heel with their owners off lead in a huge class of other dogs. A dog reactive dog would not be able to manage that. So I am guessing that they would not want to breed for that. 

Here, working in performance events, not the dog park, sometimes we are in the ring all by ourselves but our dogs have to be manageable outside of the ring too, and around a lot of people and dogs. Sometimes in the ring they have to be ok with other dogs. 

I know that it is not desireable to breed for pets. We should be breeding for some purpose other than the pet market. But the vast majority of dogs are going to be pets all the time, and the ones that are left will, hopefully, be pets much of the time. A highly undesireable trait for a pet is a dog that cannot be walked without reacting to other dogs.

Another thing my friend told me about Germany, is that people can take their dogs pretty much anywhere, to restaurants and such. One would expect that they would run into other dogs around town. Wouldn't a reactive dog be frowned on or even a liability?

About spaying, that is certainly up to you. I am not a fan of spaying just for the certificate. I have a few dogs I will never breed but are not spayed. But if I was going to never breed a dog for a reason, but wanted to work that dog in some venue, then subtracting the heat cycles might be a consideration. When one has a bad experience with an elective surgery, I can understand not wanting to go that way again.


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## Gemgem454 (Jan 28, 2021)

selzer said:


> Yes, I was serious. I have never been to Germany so I have to go with what folks who have been there have told me. You have lived there and are talking about working line breeders. My friend has lived there and has been there since, and has gone to many sieger shows -- yes we are both into show line dogs.
> 
> She says the dogs, intact males have to run around the ring on heel with their owners off lead in a huge class of other dogs. A dog reactive dog would not be able to manage that. So I am guessing that they would not want to breed for that.
> 
> ...



So i have to some what disagree 
My dog is reactive in the sense she sometimes has a box around her
Buuut i can do agilty with her offleash surrounded by on leash dogs with no issues she wont leave my side unless shes doing her jumps etc her obedience is near perfect 
Again same for shows 
What she hates is dogs going in her face while shes working so if one is to charge at her she'll have a go back which has happened too many times! Irresponsible owners


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

This is the old post from 2011.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gemgem454 said:


> So i have to some what disagree
> My dog is reactive in the sense she sometimes has a box around her
> Buuut i can do agilty with her offleash surrounded by on leash dogs with no issues she wont leave my side unless shes doing her jumps etc her obedience is near perfect
> Again same for shows
> What she hates is dogs going in her face while shes working so if one is to charge at her she'll have a go back which has happened too many times! Irresponsible owners


Which means, you ought to step up your game. Don't let other dogs charge her or get in her face. Watch what other dogs around you are doing and avoid the confrontation for your bitch. Step in front, get between and tell people, rudely if necessary, "Control your dog!" 

I haven't shown in a couple of years. Quinnie was my last title, but I trained the dogs with show-people. Our object was to have dogs be rather neutral when they see another dog. It isn't play time. It's a dog. We've seen dogs before. And that is all there is to it. But if a dog charges at my dog, which really hasn't happened all that much. I get in between and say "Get cher dog!" That is MY responsibility. It is up to me to protect my dog. Yes, there are folks out there that don't have the same goals, the same experience, etc. I am not going to change that fact. What I can change is the letting my dog get to the point of needing to feel that she has to protect herself.


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