# Not what I expected.....



## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

After growing up with two Shepherds as a kid, we broke down and got one, and she has been a mixed bag of good and bad, but at times the bad seems to overwhelm the good and I am still up in the air as to keep her or give her back to the breeder.

She is healthy and beautiful, and she shows absolutely no aggression toward people or animals, no fear of anything. We wanted a pretty dog and we have lots of kids that come to our house so we wanted a dog that would be fine with people. So we did get what we wanted on these points.

The bad, though, is that this dog is extremely dominant. Though she doesn't try to intentionally bite people to hurt them, she mouths everyone and plays rough with the puppies in her class. She doesn't respect anyone really in the family except for me, whom she knows is alpha but doesn't really like it. She hasn't exactly bonded with me and shows no desire to please me. In the wild dogs that don't learn the pack structure don't survive--so luckily she is owned by humans as she would be thrown out of a pack. She will work for treats but even this is limited in its application. Thus she is very hard to train. Shepherds are supposed to be smart, but she is the worst dog in the puppy class. Housetraining is terrible. At this point she should not have any accidents but continues to do so, and we have crate trained her from the time she got home. We leave her confined unless we are watching but she will do stuff right in front of our face, not caring whether she gets praised or scolded. Never seen such an indifferent dog. She seems determined to do whatever the heck she wants regardless of rewards or punishments.

I work with her everyday but she is making little progress. I am thinking of getting a shock collar and maybe find a different trainer who specializes in dogs that won't train well.


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

How old is your pup? How long have you had her? Just from reading this post she sounds young (puppy class). It takes a long time to train a dog especially one at a young age. Untill we know a little bit more about age, length owned etc its hard to give good advice other then keep trying, exercise her alot, and keep bonding, find things she likes as rewards instead of treats you say don't always work.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

First of all, I would get rid of this whole dominant, lack of respect train of thought. She's a puppy, puppies use their mouths to play, especially GSD puppies. Search the board for the bite inhibition threads, these will really help you learn how to handle this- but just know it's a completely normal trait of a GSD!

What kind of treats are you using? Is she hungry when you are training? You might need to use super rewarding treats like stinky cheese or liver, and train when she is hungry (before meals). Please do not resort to a shock collar for a puppy.


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## harleyboysmom (Apr 22, 2012)

My goodness, how old is this little devil? What ever you do, don't give up the ship, if she is young, she is feeling her way around, has to learn the ropes so to speak, they do test you but be consistant. I have a "BRAT" that is 6 1/2 mos old. His problem is play, play, play. 
Don't give up, don't lose your cool, that makes them act crazier, good luck and love her.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Don't know how old your dog is but Stella was very mouthy when she was younger. They are known as land sharks for a reason! I was at my wit's end with all the biting and mouthing. The more I tried to correct her the crazier she became! Everyone has to find what works for their puppy but for Stella it was saying over and over....don't bite the mommy, while putting toys in her mouth instead of my body, and calming her down my rubbing her belly. This was done over and over and over... Now at almost 15 months she has a soft mouth when playing with me. 
Stella needs to be trained when hungry and I need to keep some really high value treats for that purpose. Something she gets only for training. Liverwurst is one of her favorites. 
I remember wishing Stella was housebroken sooner than she was. I felt like so many other dogs were housebroken before her! But every dog goes at their own pace and a lot of the time it was me not watching her close enough. Happy to say that she is 100% housebroken. Not one accident...even when she had giardia and her poop was like water!!!! If you can teach your dog to go to the door when she needs to go out, it might help.


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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

I didn't think anything until I took her to puppy class and the teacher said, "At this point no one should have any accidents" and everybody in the class except for me claimed that their pup was housebroken. 

As for the shock collar, I don't want to have to resort to it and right now I can't afford it, but I will have to do something if she can't learn to do what I say for her own good. My dad told me to be careful, because he used a prong collar on our big male and regrets it in retrospect, says it will break her spirit, but after the crap she's put us through a little spirit breaking might be what's in order. I'm going to play this puppy class out and then try to find a different dog trainer before I do it.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

How old is your puppy? And like I said before, every dog is different. Make sure you rule out any medical reasons for not being housebroken too.
I find that a lot of people claim a lot of things about their dogs, and you just can't believe everyone.
I don't believe you should be "breaking her spirit". She sounds like a normal puppy to me.


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## breyer08 (Jul 4, 2012)

To be honest, your dog sounds like a normal GSD puppy! Please read through this thread first: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/85888-puppy-biting-teaching-bite-inhibition.html

I, also, was very worried about my pup's biting when we first brought her home, and it wasn't until I found this forum and read through all the threads on "landshark" puppies that I realized it is normal behavior for GSD puppies. At 4 months old, your dog is still teething and will continue to be mouthy for a little while yet, most likely. Every time she mouths or bites you, redirect her with a chew toy. Every time. You can also buy some bitter apple spray and squirt her one time in the mouth when she goes to bite you. She will learn very quickly that the spray bottle is not a good thing! (My girl, Ava, backs down now as soon as she sees the bottle, so no spraying is even necessary!) But, it will get better with age, especially if you constantly redirect her now. Ava just turned 5 months old last week, and she is biting and mouthing a lot less. 

I would highly recommend you NOT use a shock or prong collar on a 4-month-old puppy. Your dog is just being a rambunctious puppy, and to physically punish her in a more severe or aggressive manner for that could actually end up doing more harm than good in the long run.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

You've got to have patience with your sweet girl. GSD puppies are very challenging to raise. 
Are you giving her treats or praise when she potties outside? That is just as important as telling her no when she goes inside. Your dog isn't dominant-she's just being a puppy.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Your dog is only 4 months old.

It does get better after they finish teething, but at this point she sounds like a normal GSD puppy. Training is supposed to be fun, fun, fun, and good things should come from you. 

At this point, she has a very short attention span and all she wants to do is play. Give it some time. It will be worth it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jrnabors said:


> I didn't think anything until I took her to puppy class and the teacher said, "At this point no one should have any accidents" and everybody in the class except for me claimed that their pup was housebroken.


I have to say I don't much care for your trainer. It's a lousy trainer that says, "Your dog should be doing X, and if your dog doesn't do X you're an incompetent owner." 

Find a better trainer.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My advice would be to put away any "expectations" and love your dog the way she is. She's not your past dogs, she's herself. 

I agree with Emoore. Find a different trainer.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

If she is only about 4 mos, definetly a puppy, I thought until Frank was about 9 mos old I'd never be able to just pet him because every time I put my hand down it went in his mouth. His mouth was always open and whatever was near went in it first. 
Pups at this age need consistancy, more then dominatation in my point of veiw, they need to learn the outcome is the same no matter what they try to do, and that they must do something to get something NILIF. Start small and work up. 
Hang in there, the work you put in to her will be well worth it in the end, somedays you may doubt you'll ever make progress, but the work you put into her will show in the end.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> My advice would be to put away any "expectations" and love your dog the way she is. She's not your past dogs, she's herself.
> 
> I agree with Emoore. Find a different trainer.


I agree as well...preferably a club or GSD group.
Sounds like my kind of dog. 
She's just a baby and learning the world! :wub:


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> I didn't think anything until I took her to puppy class and the teacher said, "At this point no one should have any accidents" and everybody in the class except for me claimed that their pup was housebroken.


The solution to that is easy... just claim yours is housebroken too! I can almost promise you that half of your class is lying, or don't understand what is really going on. 

The reality is that owners are housebroken long before puppies are. If you are home with your pup all of the time, and can keep an eye on it, it will not have any accidents at a VERY young age. That doesn't mean it is housebroken though. It means you have become adept at reading the signs and can get her outside in time... that's not the same thing. 

German Shepherds ARE smart, and they DO learn correct potty behavior... and until they do, it is up to you to set them up for success. You need to watch her carefully, and take her out at all the normal "go times" (e.g. after play, after sleeping, after eating, etc). Every time you take her out, and she goes, give her your command (mine is "Good Outside"). I still say that to my pup whenever I see him going outside. I'd say that he is housebroken now (at 16 weeks) because he sleeps through the night without needing to go, and hasn't had an accident in quite awhile -- even going to the door to get out... but I would not be shocked or dismayed if I wake up tomorrow to find a puddle. It happens. He's still young. And every dog is different.

But this concerns me:



Jrnabors said:


> My dad told me to be careful, because he used a prong collar on our big male and regrets it in retrospect, says it will break her spirit


The proper use of a prong collar will NOT break a GSD's spirit. In fact, the prong collar is more humane than the choke collar, IMHO. But you have to use it right. If you use the prong collar to yank and crank the dog, that's a different story. I don't want to be insulting, but I am concerned that no one has taught you the right way to train a dog. That's not your fault... but if you don't do something to change that, it will be bad for you, and worse for your dog. Your dog is depending on you!

Put the e-collar (shock collar) out of your mind for now. They can be great training tools, but the chance of misusing them is huge. They are NOT designed to simply shock the dog into submission! I would say that you need none of those yet. 

What you need to do is handle puppydom. Then move on to training issues.

First thing I would do if I were you would be to get a subscription to BowWow Flix (BOWWOW). It's like Netflix for dog training videos. Then get some good DVDs on basic obedience. It doesn't sound like you are the clicker and positive reward type of person... so, I would say get Leerburg's (Leerburg Dog Training)basic obedience DVD. Even he cautions against yank and crank methods. 

As for the dominant and Alpha thing -- IMHO this is greatly overstated, especially in puppies. So many people think that if you convince your dog you are bigger and badder than she is that she'll naturally obey everything you say -- this is so untrue.

As for the biting... the first line of defense against biting is: Wear her out! A tired puppy is a good puppy. 

Take her on walks... Wears her out, while asserting your authority at the same time. 

Check out the links on the Flirt pole. That is a great way of wearing a puppy out.

Crate Train her (mind you, I am not saying lock her in a crate for 8 hours a day so you don't have to deal with her... I am saying crate TRAIN her.) A dog who sleeps in a crate RARELY has housebreaking problems. Again -- DO NOT just put her in a crate and forget her... you need to build up time in the crate, and never crate her more than four or five hours at a time. That means that if she is sleeping in the crate, you should expect to get up with her once a night to let her out.

When she is crate trained, and properly exercised, then the other tricks you read on here will start to work. But if you don't exercise her enough, no amount of redirection is going to work.

When our little pup can't control his biting, he finds himself in a room by himself (usually we simply leave him there and shut the door behind us.) Not for long... just a minute or two, then try it again... after a time or two alone, he realizes that biting his playmates results in him left alone, and he doesn't like that at all. 

I would say that the problem is not your GSD. It is unreasonable expectations. And as for your puppy class -- that's the problem with them... so many are run by people who just don't know what they are talking about... and especially they do not understand the concept of HIGH DRIVE German Shepherds.

Here is the good news: A high Drive German Shepherd dog is one of the truly remarkable gifts you can ever have. The bad news is: In order to get to a High Drive German Shepherd dog, you will have to live through a High Drive German Shepherd puppy.

But you can do it....

I promise you, it is *so *worth it!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jrnabors said:


> I am thinking of getting a shock collar and maybe find a different trainer who specializes in dogs that won't train well.


Put away the idea of a shock collar for now. I still don't know how old this dog is, but I'm guessing she's less than 6 months of age since she's in puppy classes. You don't use shock collars on puppies, you can do a lot more harm than good, especially if you've never used one before and haven't studied its proper use.

It sounds like you have a fairly normal pup, maybe a bit more "bratty" than most, but this could improve a lot with time, maturity, and training. Don't give up on her yet. I'll hold more comments until after I know her actual age.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

I believe he said she's 4 months old now :wub:
Kat


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mine was difficult to potty train..she wasn't completely potty trained until she was about 6.5-7 months. It drove me nuts, she would go right in front of me. I would go in my room and throw a tantrum. I started the whole process all over again with some good advice from people on here and once I learned more about her and took the time to really get to know her, she became the best dog in the world. Most of the errors in training are human, so thats where it starts. Physical and mental exercise are a must. I used pretty much all positive training with mine, she does have a prong, but she has only worn it like 3 times. Before you think about giving her back, read what you wrote about her temperament. That is what is really important and most of the time nothing you do can change that, but everything else you mentioned can be trained. If you weigh the pros/cons, you have a good dog and everything will come together if you work at it.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> After growing up with two Shepherds as a kid, we broke down and got one.


you're lucky, i grew up with no dogs. but even an ignorant moron like me knows not to put a shock collar on a 4 month old dog or expect my dog to be fully potty trained.

everything i know about raising a GSD, i learn from this forum. Use the "search" function to learn. bunch of good info on this site.

When i got my GSD, i was already prepared and expected what a GSD puppy should be. 

I had no problem about potty training, crate training, biting cause i already know what to expect. READ this forum, plenty of info. Use the "search" function before you ask questions.




Jrnabors said:


> I didn't think anything until I took her to puppy class and the teacher said, "At this point no one should have any accidents" and everybody in the class except for me claimed that their pup was housebroken.


i would've said, "yes, my pup is housebroken, he goes to the restroom and flash the toilet everytime he goes, i'm just mad sometimes because he uses too much toilet paper".



Jrnabors said:


> As for the shock collar, I don't want to have to resort to it and right now I can't afford it, but I will have to do something if she can't learn to do what I say for her own good. My dad told me to be careful, because he used a prong collar on our big male and regrets it in retrospect, says it will break her spirit, but after the crap she's put us through a little spirit breaking might be what's in order.


lol, why blame the dog? if you can't take it, you shouldnt have gotten a dog! you should've done your research before you got one!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Your past dogs may have been easy, or maybe you don't really remember them being this "bad"? 

You have a 4 month old tazmanian devil I read your other thread to. It sounds and I may be wrong, that you don't really like this devil dog much? 

I think you need to really be realistic with yourself and your wife to, and ask yourself, if your willing to go the distance ? Is she to much work for you? Are you to frustrated with it all? Are you prepared to keep on training and working on your bond with this puppy? 

If no, I say return the puppy to the breeder NOW, while she is still young and can be very easily placed with a family /person who can handle her.

She may just very well not be a good fit for you / wife? She may be to much dog for you? 

I can't answer these questions, I can only say that from your posts, it just doesn't sound like you like her much, that she is frustrating the heck out of you all, and your tired of dealing with potty accidents and disobedience.

I would NEVER consider a shock collar for a 4 month old puppy or any puppy under a year old, nor a prong collar.

It may be that she isn't a good fit for your family..


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

I'd take that puppy in a heartbeat! . 
Kat


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it's so easy to blame the dog. when you blame the dog
it frees you. take a look at your training methods. how
often are you taking your dog out? you say your dog should
be house broken well maybe your dog needs more time and guidance.
i read "when your dog isn't doing what you want it to do
you have to stop and say what am i doing wrong".


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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

Yeah, everyone is saying that we have to give it time and that she should change in the next two months. I guess we will see. I just know that bad habits are harder to correct the longer they go on.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> I just know that bad habits are harder to correct the longer they go on.


I worried about that, too.

I think things changed for me when I became determined to "win"-- and stayed calm and firm, both verbally and emotionally. 
He still tries butthead things, but I am matter of fact in corrections and expect him to behave, and so he does. You have to project that to the dog. Hard to explain, but one post by a member here was my light-bulb moment.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

do not put a shock collar on a puppy ... you might think about returning her and getting an adult dog- one that is past the housebreaking/teething/shark phase .... 

some folks cant handle the puppy stage (and NO 4 month old pup is housebroken at that age.... and the ones in your class arent either, they just probably get taken out more and the owners pay more attention so no accidents happen)

the puppy stage lasts a long time, if you dont like the pup now, you might be better off returning the pup /rehoming the pup and getting an adult dog which might be more your speed


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

mebully21 said:


> do not put a shock collar on a puppy ... you might think about returning her and getting an adult dog- one that is past the housebreaking/teething/shark phase ....
> 
> some folks cant handle the puppy stage (and NO 4 month old pup is housebroken at that age.... and the ones in your class arent either, they just probably get taken out more and the owners pay more attention so no accidents happen)
> 
> the puppy stage lasts a long time, if you dont like the pup now, you might be better off returning the pup /rehoming the pup and getting an adult dog which might be more your speed


I have to agree with you, mebully 21... An older dog might be better for him.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jrnabors said:


> Yeah, everyone is saying that we have to give it time and that she should change in the next two months. I guess we will see. I just know that bad habits are harder to correct the longer they go on.


Its not always about correcting. Redirecting is a tool. Stay on top of it, so the pup doesn't have a chance to do something bad. In order for the dog to succeed, you have to set the dog up for this. For example....if the dog can hold its pee for 4 hours and you know that..take it out at 3.5 hours


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

She honestly does seem to be a perfectly normal demonic 4 month old and it DOES get better but it is a rough go and you still have teething to go through and a high drive dog is ALWAYS going to need some level of stimulation, activity, etc. 

If the little monster will chase a ball or play tug you may need to look at your reward system. My Beau likes food but things got a whole lot better when we switched to toys.

If you can't laugh at some of the mayhem and destruction....and stubborness, maybe you should reconsider. It is true you look back and wonder how a dog could do some of the things they do. But you are really blessed if you have a dog who is social and fearless. My own experience with females is that they seem to take longer to housebreak. 

If you really are considering a return to the breeder, sooner than later! She is not sounding defective but the kind of dog someone would want! The older she is the harder it will be on everyone including her.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i have been thru the puppy stage numerous times, and its a trying and hard time for some folks, landsharks with 4 legs instead of fins, attention span of gnats, energy,teenage years, lol sometimes its very hard to deal with and you feel like your head is spinning.. after numerous years with puppies, i adopted an older dog, omg what a difference, it was so nice. (dont get me wrong i love the shark phase of puppies and all that goes with it) but for once i didnt have to wrap my shins or ankles lol or be up every 2 hours for potty time lol... my 6 1/2 yr old dog all i did was retrain for housebreaking (just for schedule wise) and he caught on fast. my new gsd i got last year at a year and 3 months old, so i bypassed again the shark phase.. dont feel bad if you both feel the puppy land shark phase isnt for you.. some folks cant handle it. if you got her from a reputable breeder the breeder should take her back, ask the breeder if she has any older pups , or any retired adult dogs for sale.. alot of good breeders when they retire their breeding dogs will offer them for adoption.. it sounds like you and your wife for your first "together" dog might be better off with an adult dog.. there is nothing wrong with that.. 

alll the pups i had were not 100% housebroken either until a year of age, so those folks in your training class saying their pups were housebroken totally dont know what they are talking about lol


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

people say it "gets better" , but ya know sometimes it doesn't! Totally has to do with the dog, the training, what YOU put into it. Some puppies can be harder than others


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

These aren't bad habits... she is just a baby and it takes time to teach what is right and wrong. She is doing what comes naturally to her at that age. If she were out in the wild with her pack they would teach her bite inhibition and they just go to the bathroom anywhere. All dogs take their own time to learn something weither it is poddy training or not to bite or certain commands. They don't come the first time you do them. I've had pups poddy trainde by 4-5 months and some that still wouldn't 100% not have an accident at a year+. When you gotta go you gotta go especially if mom/dad arn't paying attention to what clues you have taught them to show you. To help with poddy training teach her to ring bells on a specific door. Only use that door to take her in/out to poddy. Before letting her out to go poddy ring the bells on her head/face then immed take her out to poddy, stay out until she goes then over praise her/treat her. This way she associates that door/bells to tell you when you can't see her she has to go and that she gets lots of love/treats when she goes outside. A firm NO when she poddys inside is all that is needed, no pushing her face in, not hitting, no shocking her. It takes time and "breaking" her spirit will get her not to trust you and make her not learn what she has to do. Make sure to take her out every time no matter what when she wakes from a nap and after she eats. EVERY TIME! No matter the weather. Bc she is most likely to have to go after these times and then will associate those times with going to teh bathroom...ringing the door bells...and then going.

For biting there are great threads about puppies and bite inhibition. Again a firm no when going after your body, legs, hands, clothes then re-direct with a toy or bone. I find reguardless of if you feed raw or kibble a nice marrow bone is a great distraction for teaching not to bite. They chew on the bone and get their mouth tired/energy out. If she goes to nip at you say NO and replace a toy/bone in her mouth and walk away from her even if its just a few feet. Again dont hit her if she goes to bite shes doing what is natural to her at that age. If you watch a litter of puppies together thats all they do is bite and chew on eachother until one yelps and then they stop and eventually start playing again. 
Exercise her several times a day. Mix up training 1 command until she learns that command 100% and play. When not training the 1 command at a time play ball or frisbee or run around after her and her after you. Tire her out so when she goes inside she rests. 

Again she is a BABY!!!! The have tons of energy even up after 1-2-3yrs old. Its constant work on everything. Puppies don't just look pretty and do what you want. Its just like a human baby...do you expect your 4 month old human baby to be poddy trained at 4 months? NO!

If you honestly can't handle the constant work and you still feel the need to break her spirit, hit, choke, shock this little one I would sit down, rethink your owner status and ability and find her a home who can take the time to train her and love her. Maybe an older puppy 10-18 months is better for you one that already has a solid background in living in a home behavior. 

Good luck, love her, enjoy her and take it as a learning experience! Bc all this work now pays off! I am constantly training, working, teaching all 3 of my dogs everyday and they range from 3.5-2yrs old and all went through the same thing..and NOW we have a litter of 9 in the home we will also be working with.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Gilly1331 said:


> These aren't bad habits... she is just a baby and it takes time to teach what is right and wrong.
> 
> 
> > There's a big difference between a bad habit and a simple lack of knowing how she should behave. This is your job - to teach her. Please read through the threads and see that you're not alone in your frustration.
> ...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Emoore said:


> I have to say I don't much care for your trainer. It's a lousy trainer that says, "Your dog should be doing X, and if your dog doesn't do X you're an incompetent owner."
> 
> Find a better trainer.


Yes, I agree. The trainer should be helping you overcome whatever problems you encounter, not just throwing out ultimatums.

OP, don't let the "my old dog never did this or that" stuff get in your way of WORKING toward having the dog you want. I've had those thoughts a few times myself. Just get that stuff out of your head, this is a different dog and by the sound of it, a very normal one. They are indeed a lot of work, but they are extremely worth it IMO.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Not all trainers are suitable for GSD puppies. Shasta went through a puppy class at PetSmart and the trainer did a good job, but she did not understand German Shepherd puppies and was constantly mistaking normal rough play behavior for aggression...that freaked me out! I didn't realize this until we had a substitute trainer who personally owned 5 GSDs. What a difference that made in the class. So when you're looking for a new trainer, make sure you find one who has significant experience with German Shepherds.


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Gilly1331 said:
> 
> 
> > These aren't bad habits... she is just a baby and it takes time to teach what is right and wrong.
> ...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes, I was agreeing  

I feel so bad for that little puppy. I can sense the animosity from OP's post, the attitude towards the poor little innocent being. I'm putting alot of the blame on the trainer, after what was said about the housebreaking.
I hope OP reads all the puppy threads!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jrnabors said:


> Yeah, everyone is saying that we have to give it time and that she should change in the next two months. I guess we will see. I just know that bad habits are harder to correct the longer they go on.


Are you using a crate? That is the best way to housebreak a pup, also keeps her out of trouble when you aren't right there to supervise. It's true that if you allow a pup to potty in the house, it can become a bad habit, but it's on you to prevent it from happening and teach her where it is appropriate to go.


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## k9points (Sep 6, 2012)

Absolutely return her the soonest you can if you definitely don't want her. Honestly she just sounds like a regular puppy and you sound like you are a bit fed up with her. Which is perfectly understandable, puppies aren't for anyone, but you will have to make a decision about keeping her sooner rather than later.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes Jakoda. Not every dog has the same capacity to learn. 
"She hasn't exactly bonded with me and shows no desire to please me" then this can not be true "She doesn't respect anyone really in the family except for me"

throw away all that junk about extremely dominant , alpha this alpha that -- 
You have somehow selected a dog that has no big connection - but you did that , you selected her -- 
this is part of her natural sense.
never mind dogs in the wild -
dogs as a species have been selected for totally different aspects for 10's of thousands of years -- 
"Shepherds are supposed to be smart" well some are , and many are not -- this does not come automatically with being GSD .
You have to deal with the dog you have . I would have her in more controlled situations where you are central to the activity and the structure and the pleasure. You can not use punishment . You do have to provide limits and directions. For the moment when you have your family - presuming you mean kids and their friends over - remove her . Always have all options leading to a correct response. The kids might inadvertantly by play fighting and giggling and just plain stimulating her in excitement which she can't not be in the thick of things as a "member". But this leads to the mouthing and the "I don't hear you" .
At the puppy class I would not have her go play with the other pups. Too easy to connect to them, leaving you standing there as a facilitator for the dogs fun-time , especially after the obedience section where YOU ARE involved . I think the dis-connect will be intensified. The obedience should be fun -- make the reward , YOU involve yourself in such a way that she looks forward to YOU training, not playing with doggy palls after.
I would concentrate on getting the response you want - keep trying till YOU find it.
You say of her she is extremely dominant - NO sir/ma'am -- disconnected .
Wonder what she thinks of you in her little thought balloon "oh brother here comes the stick in the mud killjoy "


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I may have missed it, but where did you get the puppy? I would be talking to the breeder about training concerns. 
4 month old puppies are rarely dominant in thought. I've seen a strong willed pup or 2 over the years but they were trying to lead their own parade, not the owner's. She is all about what she wants to do and you're basically in her way. Teach her that she gets what she wants when she does something to earn it. For example, all our young pups are taught from day one that they have to work for their supper. A sit, a down, whatever the pup is capable of. 
Where are you located? Maybe someone can recommend another trainer.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It sounds like you're approaching training as a chore, a task to get done as quickly as possible, rather than a process that can be enjoyable and yes - even fun! If it's a chore for YOU, your puppy is probably not having any fun either, which could explain why she's not engaged with you in this process. Maybe you should try to change your outlook and find ways to make training fun for both of you.


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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

We went to class today and she was acting better. Today's class was on, among other things, leashes and collars. The trainer had some prong collars to try and asked if she could put it on her. I said by all means put it on the hard headed puppy. The trainer let go, Belle lunged and WHOP! stopped dead in her tracks. She immediately straightened up and was the best behaved dog for the remainder of the class. It was amazing. The entire class was in awe at the different dog she became with the prong collar on.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

isn't your pup 4 months old? i didn't know you could
use a prong or a choker on a 4 month old pup.



Jrnabors said:


> We went to class today and she was acting better. Today's class was on, among other things, leashes and collars. The trainer had some prong collars to try and asked if she could put it on her. I said by all means put it on the hard headed puppy. The trainer let go, Belle lunged and WHOP! stopped dead in her tracks. She immediately straightened up and was the best behaved dog for the remainder of the class. It was amazing. The entire class was in awe at the different dog she became with the prong collar on.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Using a prong now is not really training. And once she gets used to it, you are going to need a 2 by 4 to get her attention.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I am not a professional trainer by any means. Let me start off with that. I just didn't think you could put a prong on a dog that age...heck...I didn't think you could even put a choke on a puppy that age.

I could be wrong, but that just doesn't sound right, IMO.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It sounds like you're approaching training as a chore, a task to get done as quickly as possible, rather than a process that can be enjoyable and yes - even fun! If it's a chore for YOU, your puppy is probably not having any fun either, which could explain why she's not engaged with you in this process. Maybe you should try to change your outlook and find ways to make training fun for both of you.


I think you could benefit from re-reading this post and really thinking about it


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)




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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

selzer said:


>


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

selzer said:


>


lol!!! :d


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sunflowers said:


> Using a prong now is not really training. And once she gets used to it, you are going to need a 2 by 4 to get her attention.


Yanno some folks just _might_ take you seriously...this might be one of them


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Yanno some folks just _might_ take you seriously...this might be one of them


Dang-- you are right, Yvette. Post NOT to be taken literally !
I was actually quoting what a trainer told me. She said a prong is a tool to be used much later, when the dog is already trained , and older.
OP, sounds to me as if you may be happier with a different breed.
Part of your problem could be that the puppy senses how you feel about her, so there is no bOnd and no desire on her part to please you.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> We went to class today and she was acting better. Today's class was on, among other things, leashes and collars. The trainer had some prong collars to try and asked if she could put it on her. I said by all means put it on the hard headed puppy. The trainer let go, Belle lunged and WHOP! stopped dead in her tracks. She immediately straightened up and was the best behaved dog for the remainder of the class. It was amazing. The entire class was in awe at the different dog she became with the prong collar on.


*Well...I guess you've solved your problem, eh? 
Good luck.*


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

very sad


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Way too young for a prong. You could seriously injure her at this age with the prong. It hurt her that's why she behaved and was afraid to do anything else. You don't want to create fear reaction bc en you will have a bigger problem. If your trainer did this shame on them....if you did this yourself and said it was a trainer thinking we would have a better response shame on you and return the pup. You need to lay a good foundation before adding extra training aids. You are going to create a fear based pup if you are starting this early with harsh training aids.

Find a new trainer who knows what they are doing otherwise you are going to have to rehire a fear aggressive dog as it grows.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Many of us use prongs and I even put one on a 6 month old for "walking only" after a trusted trainer recommended it and saw the dog who is out of lines bred for police work and he was terribly headstrong, physically strong, and she was concerned for my shoulders....... but my goal is to completely eliminate its need and we are getting there. I can certainly do loose leash walking without one now at 14 months.

But the prong ONLY went on for walks. Everything else - all the problems you are having cannot be fixed by this...and they are unsafe to leave on while the dog is unattended. To a certain extent if used improperly with a lot of nagging corrections the dog will learn to ignore it anyway..yes..even a prong or come up at you (bite you) if they think the correction was too harsh.

Every problem you are having is NORMAL. Patience and motivation win out for 95% of the issues. The continued interactive play with a tug as a reward has done great things to build our relationship together...and my current pup was a slow one to bond but now it is strong. Who wants a GSD if you can't bond with it? They are very dedicated dogs and some take longer than others but if your dog only associates you will correction, it won't happen. 

Just saying because the prong is such an easy tool that it can be abused and used for everything.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Gilly1331 said:


> Way too young for a prong. You could seriously injure her at this age with the prong. It hurt her that's why she behaved and was afraid to do anything else. You don't want to create fear reaction bc en you will have a bigger problem. If your trainer did this shame on them....if you did this yourself and said it was a trainer thinking we would have a better response shame on you and return the pup. You need to lay a good foundation before adding extra training aids. You are going to create a fear based pup if you are starting this early with harsh training aids.
> 
> Find a new trainer who knows what they are doing otherwise you are going to have to rehire a fear aggressive dog as it grows.


At first, the poster seemed to want/ need our advice. He seemed sincere, caring and worried.
(I believe he even mentioned, in another post somewhere, that his own father had tried harsh training on one of their dogs and spoke of how he always regretted it.)

We all have given very good, experienced, ways to help him with his problem.
He has apparently elected not to take our advice.

I think at this point, he's found his ' solution', his own way.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

My 4-1/2 month old pup still as the odd accident. Her half brother and half sister were also very difficult to housebreak for whatever reason. Maybe a genetic thing on how their bladder strength develops or something.

She is a submissive pee-er, that is a separate issue. I have to be careful in how people approach her, or she'll pee. Once I recognized the difference, my frustration level went down, as the true accidents were not happening nearly as often as I thought.

She has had a couple of actual accidents in the house. Her last accident was this past Wednesday. TOTALLY my fault. The problem is, she does not give you and big signs that she has to go. I'd taken her out about an hour before, so I thought she should have been good for a while. But she came in and had a big drink. I was laying down, watching TV and she came up to me and started whining. I misread her and thought she was whining to get me to play, which she often does. I should have noticed she had not brought me a toy this time.

I do scold her now when she has accidents, but I also quickly grab her and let her finish outside. It was my fault, she tried to tell me. I wish she'd go to the door and whine, so it was more obvious, but it's just who she is.

Please don't give up on your pup.

My pup was (and still can be) awful with the biting, but she's DEFINITELY getting better. It was a lot of redirecting that helped. They want to chew, so give them something to chew on besides your hands. I honestly think you will just one day have a breakthrough.

I also agree that you probably need to make your training more fun for the dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I disliked your trainer before...now I despise your trainer. It's no skin off their butt if they ruin your dog! Find another trainer, before it's too late.

Seriously, don't tell me there aren't any others out there. So what if you walk away from $100, or whatever they charge? This puppy will hopefully be a wonderful addition to your family for the next 10 years or more, so why are you rushing the first few months to do it the wrong way?

Find another trainer! One that enjoys teaching dogs, and also has the unique ability to communicate with the human as well. If the trainer can get you to understand what you're doing (right and wrong) then this won't be nearly as frustrating for you.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I think your trainer is looking for a cheap, quick easy fix instead of really training you how to train the dog. The trainer doesn't have your long term outlook in consideration. Did once your trainer teach you other ways to engage your dog, or the solution was just the prong? Sure it will work for now but if you yank your dog like that at this age, you will possibly have to up the ante on the pain factor when the dog is older to keep her the way you like (if you haven't learn other ways to train your dog) and that is not going to create a healthy relationship between you and the dog. If you want good recall, a happy dog that wants to please you, an engaged dog, please check out how other successful trainers have trained this breed. 

I was very frustrated with my puppy too but she is sweeter by the day now at 10 months. Please give her some time to grow up or if you truly don't enjoy it, it'll be in your best interest to return her or you'll continue to like her less.


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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

I don't believe the prong hurt her. It just applied even pressure. I obviously don't want to have to rely on it forever, but I think it can be a good tool to get her under control.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's the whole problem - you don't get a puppy this age "under control", you teach it how to behave. Don't you see the difference? That's not meant in a mean sarcastic way, it's a genuine question.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jrnabors said:


> After growing up with two Shepherds as a kid, we broke down and got one, and she has been a mixed bag of good and bad, but at times* the bad seems to overwhelm the good* and *I am still up in the air as to keep her or give her back to the breeder*.
> 
> *She is healthy and beautiful*, and *she shows absolutely no aggression toward people or animals, no fear of anything*. We wanted a pretty dog and we have lots of kids that come to our house so we wanted a dog that would be fine with people. So we did get what we wanted on these points.
> 
> ...


Once upon a time my brother took a pup of mine at nine weeks old, and he returned her six weeks later. In the puppy classes I paid for and he attended four of, they were talking about alpha rolls in the last class -- I was standing next to him with a puppy that I was keeping. He gave her back saying she was defiant. 

Tori has NEVER had an accident in my home, and there is not a defiant bone in her body. She is a loving, affectionate dog who only wants a few scritches here and there. I put her through her CGC and her RN, two out of three legs she placed. She is NOT dominant at all. She is not hard to train. She was actually very easy to train. But she was not right for my brother and his friend. Maybe your dog is not right for you. 

You have a pup that many of the folks on this board would be VERY HAPPY WITH. She is not afraid of anything, is good with people and kids, is healthy, and well, they are all beautiful at four months old. 

Every day that goes by you are doing damage to your puppy. Shock collars and prong collars are not right for baby dogs. Accidents are not the fault of the baby dog, they are the fault of the owner of the baby dog. Being angry/frustrated at your baby dog and using something to inflict pain to compel her to do what you want will not earn her respect, sorry. It may break her spirit and it may make her fearful. It may make her untrustworthy, and _that _would be a shame. 

Maybe you would do best by calling your breeder and returning the puppy.

ETA: If you need a prong collar to manage a four month old puppy, what will you need when the pup is a teenager? If you cannot manage a four month old puppy, how will you manage a dog that weighs three times what she does now?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Jrnabors said:


> I don't believe the prong hurt her. It just applied even pressure. I obviously don't want to have to rely on it forever, but I think it can be a good tool to get her under control.


Woolf was a feral pup when I first got him. A wild pup and scared out of his wits of dogs and humans. You know what I did? Lot of patience, keeping him tethered to me, lot of play, using his curiosity, getting him engaged. It took about a month to house train him. If it even looked like he was sniffing to pee, I'd scoop him up and take him outside. I was up several times during the night to take him out. If he did pee in the house, I knew it was MY fault because I didn't do my job. 

Once he relaxed enough to play, then came the shark phase. That was rough. Toys were kept in every room and I carried one with me. Every time the nipping started, a toy was poked in his mouth instead. Sure some nips got through, but the shark phase was survived. Prongs and shock collars weren't used with him.

Respect has to be earned, even with dogs. With dogs it is through you being fair and consistent. And if you are angry and frustrated with them, you bet they can read it. Guess what happens, their behavior takes a nose dive. 

For training, if she isn't crazy to work for the treats you have. Find a different treat... cheese, even the old stand by hot dog, experiment and find what gets her attention.

As for any trainer that would recommend a prong for a 4 mth old..... find another trainer, just that simple. The trainer isn't doing you any favors introducing the prong at this age and may be causing more damage then you realize down the road. Shock collars for this age, even worse.

If you can't see yourself training this pup without prong collars and shock collars, send the pup back to the breeder.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I agree with giving her back to the breeder, and maybe considering a golden retriever........or maybe just get some fish? I think you are in over your head with this pup.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What I am thinking is that the memories you have are those of your parents' GSDs as adult dogs, and you expect a puppy to behave like those GSDs you remember.

There is no magic pill. You have to work for their obedience. 
And, yes, these dogs are smart enough to decide whether or not you are worthy of their respect and trust.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Once upon a time my brother took a pup of mine at nine weeks old, and he returned her six weeks later. In the puppy classes I paid for and he attended four of, they were talking about alpha rolls in the last class -- I was standing next to him with a puppy that I was keeping. He gave her back saying she was defiant.
> 
> Tori has NEVER had an accident in my home, and there is not a defiant bone in her body. She is a loving, affectionate dog who only wants a few scritches here and there. I put her through her CGC and her RN, two out of three legs she placed. She is NOT dominant at all. She is not hard to train. She was actually very easy to train. But she was not right for my brother and his friend. Maybe your dog is not right for you.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> What I am thinking is that the memories you have are those of your parents' GSDs as adult dogs, and you expect a puppy to behave like those GSDs you remember.
> 
> There is no magic pill. You have to work for their obedience.
> And, yes, these dogs are smart enough to decide whether or not you are worthy of their respect and trust.


I was thinking the same thing. Only mine came out more like this  so I posted nothing. I'm sorry, but I get really  thoughts when I hear people talking about how they're going to "make" the puppy respect them. As if. When that dog comes up the leash, maybe THEN people will realize the mistakes in their thinking.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jag said:


> *I was thinking the same thing. Only mine came out more like this  so I posted nothing. *Well, I actually wrote out several posts and deleted them, and had to actually wait until this evening to write words.
> 
> *I'm sorry, but I get really  thoughts when I hear people talking about how they're going to "make" the puppy respect them. *I do too.
> 
> As if. *When that dog comes up the leash, maybe THEN people will realize the mistakes in their thinking.*


Unfortunately not. They will blame the dog the way they are blaming the puppy for her potty training accidents. They will say the dog was stupid (already are) that the dog is dominant (already are). They will say the dog was a bad dog. They will blame the lines or the breeder. They will put the dog down, or send it back to the breeder so they can sort it out, and go out and buy themselves another dog, maybe a lab or a golden.


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## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

Funny you said that, seltzer. OP already has a post in another thread about bad breeders


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Jag said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Only mine came out more like this  so I posted nothing. I'm sorry, but I get really  thoughts when I hear people talking about how they're going to "make" the puppy respect them. As if. When that dog comes up the leash, maybe THEN people will realize the mistakes in their thinking.


I'm in the same boat. I can't think of anything else to say other than I hope the OP makes the decision to return the dog to the breeder before the OP does irreparable damage to that dog. You can't "make" a puppy respect you. In the words of my husband: "It doesn't work that way."


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Shaolin said:


> I'm in the same boat. I can't think of anything else to say other than I hope the OP makes the decision to return the dog to the breeder before the OP does irreparable damage to that dog. *You can't "make" a puppy respect you. In the words of my husband: "It doesn't work that way."*


That is so true. IMO, There is nothing more gratifying than having a dog respect you.

We've all been there...enduring all of the puppy antics and growth stages. 
It can be frustrating and difficult at times, as are children.
I believe how you handle it determines your relationship with your dog.

True admiration, love and loyalty of an adult GSD with its owner is obvious to anyone that witnesses it. 
Their desire to please us is just amazing. 
You can see and feel it. . 

_That respect is earned_ and seeing that spark in their eyes (knowing he truly admires you) is the greatest thing!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> I agree with giving her back to the breeder, and maybe considering a golden retriever........or maybe just get some fish? I think you are in over your head with this pup.


Why do that to the golden retriever or the fish


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## x.WOLFiE.x (Sep 1, 2012)

I have had Goldens, cats, and now a GSD. All difficult, all more than worth it. Some people should not have PETS, period. End of story.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Op... Your pup is 4 months old. Harsh training aids are the wrong thing at this age. Set up a foundation first using a nylons or flat collar and leash. It takes time and patience and a lot of practice. Please do this pup a favor and start over without anything but you and the pup otherwise return the dog and get a pet rock that you can take care of. 

If you are using upper level training aids now at 4 months I can only imagine what you are going to go to at 6, 12, 18+ months when the pup has grown, gained weight, strength, and the knowledge of how to avoid you, your aids, and become aggressive. 

Please read all of the excellent advice this thread has given you.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Maybe we should try another approach. Let's give OP the benefit of doubt, and think that the only time he gets any peace and quiet is when he's alone in his study and this is where he gets to unwind. He could be using these forums to let off a little steam, and he might be just venting, and exaggerating, and perhaps by nature he's sarcastic (this I know all about, lol!) and all of us saying, "NO! NO! NO!" might not be helping very much. 

But OP, please look for another trainer. Puppies can be a handfull, but they soon outgrow this stage. It would be so much better in the long run if you found someone who knows how train, using the available tools at an appropriate age.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> Maybe we should try another approach. Let's give OP the benefit of doubt, and think that the only time he gets any peace and quiet is when he's alone in his study and this is where he gets to unwind. He could be using these forums to let off a little steam, and he might be just venting, and exaggerating, and perhaps by nature he's sarcastic (this I know all about, lol!) and all of us saying, "NO! NO! NO!" might not be helping very much.
> 
> But OP, please look for another trainer. Puppies can be a handfull, but they soon outgrow this stage. It would be so much better in the long run if you found someone who knows how train, using the available tools at an appropriate age.


I don't know. I have read a lot on these forums, and if one person told me, "Don't do that! You'll ruin your dog!" I probably would just chuck that out as a bleeding heart PETA wannabe. But if the general consensus is that the puppy is just a puppy, and that a prong collar is way overboard for a puppy so young, maybe it would make me think twice about putting it back on the puppy. 

I have some pups that will be 4 months old in a couple of days, and the idea of putting a prong collar on them makes me do a slow burn. That is why I think maybe this pup would be better off back with the breeder. Too many of the statements this person uses are harsh and gives the impression that he really does not like the puppy. If you don't like a puppy it would be better to [removed as it might be considered inciting a riot]. 

To the OP, before putting the prong collar on your puppy again, I implore you to think really hard about whether or not you like the puppy. If you cannot answer in the affirmative, please take the puppy back to the breeder, or to a rescue, or to a shelter.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If all this puppy does is bring you frustration, please do give it back to the breeder.
If there is no such contract then spay her (yes a vet can do it this young) and place her responsibly in a home that will care for her and not find themselves enraged and frustrated.

BTW we've never heard this puppy's name, or seen a photo! Can you tell us her name, can you post photos of her?
Is her breeder one who had you sign a contract stating you'll give her back if it doesn't work out?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly, I know you don't like her and you think she is not like what they are supposed to be but she sounds exactly like what people are looking for..and what a good GSD puppy should be like.

If you are looking for a gentle low energy farm dog, there are breeders within the GSD world who can meet that bill and even other close breeds (like the Shiloh which was built to be that "old-timey GSD" that *some* remember [though if you look at the intent of the breed all along...well...we won't go into that discussion ]

In another thread you said GSDs have gone dowhill as a breed. You know, I honestly think things are getting better and I have owned the breed for 28 years (as an adult) and had a GSD mix 10 (as a youth) years before that. It could be that I have just figured out how to find better dogs...but I also see some police departments who jumped on the Malinos bandwagon going BACK to GSDs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The OP has stated he and his wife bit off more than they can chew; to the extent they would recommend to "newbies" to not get a GSD 

My GSD is the best dog ever, other than bad elbows (poor breeding I am sure) but even with that he's a sweet, well trained dog and naturally "well behaved".

I'm really curious who the OPs breeder is, that they'd have sold someone so unprepared a high energy puppy


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Why do that to the golden retriever or the fish


Ya I guess you're right.....


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Honestly, I know you don't like her and you think she is not like what they are supposed to be but she sounds exactly like what people are looking for..and what a good GSD puppy should be like...


This is EXACTLY what I'm looking for and hope to find in my next pup!


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

he got what he was asking for, a good dog with a good temperment for people .. 4 months old isnt dominant, she is a baby.. putting a prong collar on a 4 month old is so wrong he shouldnt be in the breeder comments , he got a good temperment dog... not a genetic mess..


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> The OP has stated he and his wife bit off more than they can chew; to the extent they would recommend to "newbies" to not get a GSD
> 
> My GSD is the best dog ever, other than bad elbows (poor breeding I am sure) but even with that he's a sweet, well trained dog and naturally "well behaved".
> 
> I'm really curious who the OPs breeder is, that they'd have sold someone so unprepared a high energy puppy


The breeder sold the puppy to them because the OP probably said something like: "I grew up with GSDs and I know how to handle them." If you wanted a certain type of dog so badly, you'd say whatever you think would make the breeder give you the dog you wanted. 

It could also be when the OP went to physically look at the pup, they picked the most active and outgoing pup, not realizing that the energy and spunk they saw then translated into something they may not be prepared to deal with on their own. 

The OP is in over his head, which is sad.

I agree with some of the other posters; I'd take this pup in a heart beat if I could.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is really only so much the breeder can do. People hear that working lines are better, German Showlines are better, Imported dogs are better, Czech dogs are better, and everyone wants a dog that is smart enough and has all the stuff needed for a top military or police dog. Unfortunately, not everyone should own such a dog. But that does not stop the people from telling the breeder that they intend to do schutzhund or whatever. 

People flat out LIE to breeders. And we do what we can to head them off at the pass, to figure out what they know, and what pup is best for them. 

But people will be over-matched on occasion.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jrnabors said:


> The trainer had some prong collars to try and asked if she could put it on her. I said by all means put it on the hard headed puppy.


 The most important rule in dog training that you need to learn is to never, ever allow any trainer, vet, friend, whoever to correct your dog. No one corrects your dog except you. You want to bond with your dog? Work on trust between both of you, not on obedience excercises. Today you just proved to your pup that you are not her protector and a leader, but just someone that she's stuck with, unfortunately for her. Hopefully not for too long. Sorry if I'm a bit harsh but it breaks my heart to read stories like yours and know what is going to happen down the road...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I can understand some of the OPs frustration. You always remember the good old days as so much more than they were. Time tends to gloss over the hard and the bad times. Not to mention, being a kid most of the hard work of training went to mom and dad!

GSD puppies are demanding. There have been times with Singe that I wondered what the  I was thinking when I told Chuck I wanted a more driven dog. If I hadn't had this group to read about others nightmare experiences and his breeder to talk to, then I don't think I would have held onto my sanity.

Even more, I had solid local support from my kennel club and my trainer. With their help, I weathered the new puppy phase. And the landshark phase. And the teenage phase. Now that I am reaping the rewards of all that hard work, I'm even more grateful to them. 

I would suggest finding a local GSD group and getting in contact with your breeder. If you purchased from a good breeder, they should be happy to offer you advice on how to harness all of that puppy energy.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jrnabors the dog may be more than you can handle and if that's the case, giving her back to the breeder sooner rather than later is your best bet. 
She sounds like a great dog, but that doesn't mean she's going to be great for you. 
Have you talked to the breeder about her?


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