# Late onset aggression caused by my other dog?



## t_reth (Apr 29, 2015)

We have two dogs, Toke is the GSD, he's almost 2.5 years, and we've had him since he was 8 weeks. My other dog, Cody, is a mixed-breed rescue (possibly part pit) and is about 8; we've had him since he was around 1 year, we don't know exactly.

Cody has always been a loner, and would wander around by himself at dog parks, but wasn't aggressive. For the first 1.5 years or so we had Toke, Toke was very friendly with other dogs and well socialized. We took him to restaurants, walked him in high-traffic areas, and to dog expos and events without issue. 

But once Toke was nearly full-grown, Cody started spontaneously acting aggressively towards him. Toke would be laying in the yard, and Cody would just run up and attack. Once, it was so bad that Toke had to get sutures on his muzzle. 

Ever since Cody started acting out, Toke has become more and more aggressive/anxious with unknown dogs. We can't take him out in public anymore, and on walks he will bark and lunge at other dogs as long as they are in eyesight. I feel that Cody's behavior towards Toke has made Toke afraid of other dogs. Toke is perfectly fine with new people, and otherwise is well-trained. He follows basic commands, knows a few tricks, and is a great loose-leash walker, until another dog comes around.

Honestly, I feel that if Cody weren't in the picture, I could very easily re-socialize Toke. But as long as Cody is behaving this way towards Toke, my efforts will be for nothing. Of course, I have tried breaking Cody of his bad behavior, but to no avail. As I mentioned, Cody was never aggressive before and it only started when Toke was nearly full-grown, which at that point Cody was about 6 years. The (not-so) funny thing is, Cody is 40-45 lbs and neutered. Toke is a solid 95-100 lbs, intact, and completely submissive to Cody, and has no issues with mounting or marking. 

I don't want this to be a debate about neutering, as I am definitely NOT against it, and always said I would have him neutered if his behavior dictated it. Since he doesn't have a problem with mounting or marking, I don't feel that is the issue, but I am open to hearing differing opinions. I don't believe he is actually aggressive. For example, my mom brought her dog over once. As soon as Toke saw him in the driveway, he started barking and lunging. But once he saw me go outside and interact with my mom's dog and I brought the new dog inside, Toke was fine and they now play well together. It's only the anxiety of seeing a dog he doesn't know that gets him upset. And of course, given his reaction, no one wants to allow their dog to get to know mine, except for people that personally know me and know Toke isn't actually trying to attack.

I don't know what to do, and I hate not being able to take them with me wherever possible.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I apologize for the long post...here are a couple pics to make up for it...


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Tough situation... Sorry you are dealing with this. Aggression issues are no joke. I would get a good trainer/behaviorist in to evaluate your dogs ASAP. In the meantime, separate your dogs so Toke doesn't get attacked anymore. Baby gates, crate and rotate... whatever you have to do to keep them safe. I have a fear aggressive pit myself (though she's been rehabilitated). It's a lot of work, and you need outside help. Please get help before anything else happens. The sooner you get someone in to help, the sooner you can start working on rehabilitating Toke to rejoin society, as well. Good luck to you!

Edited to add: When I say my pit has been rehabilitated, that does not mean she doesn't still need to be managed. She will never be a dog that can be trusted in all situations. We will ALWAYS need to exercise caution with her when she is in public or near other dogs...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well this is a change?? So the GSD is "not" the bad boy in this situation??? Usually GSD "issues" start when they reach sexual maturity. Your GSD seems to have no issues but Cody might have responded to his sexual maturity?? Hence the change, fixing him at this point??? It may or may not make a difference??

This site is nolonger around but here is the info from it:

So moving on:

*How to Avoid Fights in Multi-Dog Households
suite101.comView OriginalDecember 29th, 2009dominance aggressionnew dog
Dog owners interested in owning a multi-dog household must be aware of pack hierarchy and pack dynamics. Being educated about such dynamics is a must for owners wanting a pack of dogs that is able of living together peacefully. However, one thing to be considered is that, at times, even with the best efforts, some dogs may not be capable of getting along well, and in order to avoid the potential for serious injuries, some dogs must be continuously monitored, separated or re-homed.

A Little Notion About Pack Drive

Dogs are pack animals which means they have a social rank. Such rank has helped dogs survive throughout the years, and it is thanks to such drive that dogs make it into our homes today. The pack leader, the most important figure, is often referred to as the 'alpha dog'. This member carries the most important tasks such as leading the pack, choosing mates, selecting hunting grounds etc. This role is not an easy one and requires some special qualities that often go beyond appearance and physical strength.

In a domestic setting, modern day, pampered pets still carry such pack drive. At times, it may be difficult for dog owners to accept that a dog will be dominant over the other dogs. Some owners turn overprotective of the subordinate dogs and may feel the need to discipline the alpha, with the end result of only exacerbating the pack drive of the alpha.

There are different scenarios where inter-dog dominance altercations may take place. Such fights are often a result of the dog owner's intervention, or simply a change in the pack structure which causes a disruption in harmony. Following are some common scenarios that may lead to inter-dog dominance aggression.

Causes of Dominance Aggression between dogs

Old Age
Often dog owners claim that their older dog is victim of serious aggression from a dog that was once subordinate. What happens in this case is that when an alpha dog turns old, the remaining pack may feel that this dog is no longer capable of carrying out his pack leadership as before. A subordinate dog, therefore, may decide that he or she must take over. Serious or even deadly fights may disrupt during this process. In nature, if the old dog does not surrender, it may even be killed.
Sickness or Weakness
Just as a senior dog may not be capable of carrying out its leader duties anymore, a sick alpha dog weakened by an illness may be forced to surrender to a subordinate role soon. In nature, a pack leader must be strong in order to allow the pack to survive. Most likely a sick dog will give up its alpha status, but if the dog is stubborn, it may be faced with aggression from other better alpha candidates.
Social Maturity
When a dog reaches social maturity which generally takes place between 18 months and three years of age, it may decide to challenge the alpha dog. There may be disputes at this point between the two, however, sooner than later, they should reach a mutual agreement.
Absences
When an alpha dog is removed from the pack for some time, such as in case of an illness, or when it dies, the pack will need another dog to take over. There may therefore be fights among the potential candidates looking to become the new leader.
Same Sex Aggression
Often females do not tend to get along well, especially if they are close in age. Males as well, may not get along with other males even though, the bloodiest fights are generally among female dogs. Many times, two dogs of the same sex may need to be kept separated all the time, especially when not supervised. Neutering and spaying may help prevent hormonally based fights.
A New Addition
The introduction of a new dog to the pack may create altercations over rank. This is often quite visible when owners add a third dog to their pack. The fights may be due to the dog being dominant in nature and therefore, challenging the authority of the current alpha member, or the dog may be corrected by other intermediate pack members so to let him know his place in the pack.
Owner Intervention
One major problem derives from the owner when he or she intervenes to 'save the insubordinate pack member'. For instance, the owner may feel sorry for the submissive dog and may feel the need to punish the alpha for acting dominant. This creates further rank issues and confusion over pack dynamics, further exacerbating the problems and creating the ideal grounds for fights.
.Lack of Leadership
Owners who care for a pack must establish a strong leadership role. Failure to do so, will cause fights among the other pack leaders over rank. An owner with strong leadership skills has the power to control his dogs and avoid fights among pack members.
Genetic Predisposition
Some dog breeds may tend to be dominant and may simply not do well in a multi-dog environment, especially when exposed to same sex dogs. Good research is important before selecting a specific dog breed.
Adding a new dog to a home may be an exciting adventure, however, it needs careful planning and strong leadership. Good research on breed, sex, age and temperament should be conducted. Owning a multi -dog pack is not recommended for inexperienced dog owners because it requires a good understanding of pack drive and strong leaderships skills.

Reference:

*


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## t_reth (Apr 29, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Tough situation... Sorry you are dealing with this. Aggression issues are no joke. I would get a good trainer/behaviorist in to evaluate your dogs ASAP. In the meantime, separate your dogs so Toke doesn't get attacked anymore. Baby gates, crate and rotate... whatever you have to do to keep them safe. I have a fear aggressive pit myself (though she's been rehabilitated). It's a lot of work, and you need outside help. Please get help before anything else happens. The sooner you get someone in to help, the sooner you can start working on rehabilitating Toke to rejoin society, as well. Good luck to you!


Yes, they are no longer allowed outside together without supervision. When we're away from the house, Toke is crated. Unfortunately, Cody was never crate trained and he won't even go near one. He was found in the bathroom of an abandoned house, I imagine he has a fear of small spaces. He won't even enter my bathroom without a LOT of coaxing and bribes.

Thank you for responding.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

And here:
Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog

You need to stop the attacks from happening, you might need to accept the fact that crate and rotate will become a way of life. And you certainly need to stop messing around with other dogs...just say no!

See Dog Park in this link:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Make some changes and proceed from there. Your not allow in dealing with this issue, you have lots of company here!


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## t_reth (Apr 29, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well this is a change?? So the GSD is "not" the bad boy in this situation??? Usually GSD "issues" start when they reach sexual maturity. Your GSD seems to have no issues but Cody might have responded to his sexual maturity?? Hence the change, fixing him at this point??? It may or may not make a difference??


Yes, I guess it is kind of opposite what one would expect. But Toke is definitely the "good dog" here. I also was thinking that maybe Cody's change in behavior towards Toke was a result of Toke maturing. I'm not opposed to having Toke neutered now, but I'm not sure it would make a difference in Cody's behavior at this point. And Cody has been neutered since he was a pup so I'm surprised that he still has that hostility towards an intact male. Thanks for the reference material.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We have the same situation only with females. When Jax, my GSD, was a puppy our Boxer female would play with her. Once she became larger than Sierra, then the fights started. It was always the Boxer that started it. After being repeatedly attacked, Jax is now fear aggressive with strange dogs.

A good trainer that helped us build some pack behavior helped some. Oddly, taking Jax on a 2 week trip with just me seemed to have reset Sierra's brain and the aggression is at a minimum now.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Truthfully, I bet you missed signs of the GSD doing a dominance dance. Dogs very rarely “spontaneously attack.” There are things your GSD who had reached sexual maturity was probably doing that were trying to move himself above the other dog in the pecking order of your pack. The other dog reacted, showing the GSD that he was still able to defend his spot, and all you noticed was the attack and corrected the wrong aggressor. Now your other dog in a way dislikes the young one even more because even though he’s defending his position, he’s the one getting in trouble, when the young one is probably the one instigating the reaction from the older dog. This is completely normal and most people miss the fact that the attacked dog was actually the one that instigated the issue. It’s also been proven that the “attacked” dog will continue to instigate the other dog in these types of scenarios in order to get the owners to keep correcting and punishing the other dog.

The dog acting out against random dogs? That’s him taking out his frustration on others. He’s partially learned that aggression is alright, and he’s also probably confused about how to interact with dogs at this point because his main interactions have been fairly violent in recent times.

I bet the GSD wasn’t going to be friendly with other dogs either way, very few intact, male GSDs are friendly with strange dogs. On top of that, those strange dogs might also be doing some sort of dominance dance, which your GSD then reacts to. Best advice is to just keep your GSD away from other dogs. There’s no need for him to be friends with random/strange dogs. He can play with you, and that’s really all he needs.

Unfortunately, this is a common issue when you keep your dog intact and also with just certain dogs no matter what. They are not “go-anywhere” dogs at that point and you just have to accept that. You more than likely will just need to put more obedience on the dog in order for him not to react to everything that just walks by him. The dog park thing…I would just cut that out of his life altogether before you’re paying for vet bills.


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## t_reth (Apr 29, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Truthfully, I bet you missed signs of the GSD doing a dominance dance. Dogs very rarely “spontaneously attack.” There are things your GSD who had reached sexual maturity was probably doing that were trying to move himself above the other dog in the pecking order of your pack. The other dog reacted, showing the GSD that he was still able to defend his spot, and all you noticed was the attack and corrected the wrong aggressor. Now your other dog in a way dislikes the young one even more because even though he’s defending his position, he’s the one getting in trouble, when the young one is probably the one instigating the reaction from the older dog. This is completely normal and most people miss the fact that the attacked dog was actually the one that instigated the issue. It’s also been proven that the “attacked” dog will continue to instigate the other dog in these types of scenarios in order to get the owners to keep correcting and punishing the other dog.
> 
> The dog acting out against random dogs? That’s him taking out his frustration on others. He’s partially learned that aggression is alright, and he’s also probably confused about how to interact with dogs at this point because his main interactions have been fairly violent in recent times.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughts. Just to be clear, as a couple of people have mentioned the dog park, Toke has not and does not go to the park. I should've been clearer, but I was commenting that we used to take Cody when he was younger and lived right next to one. My point was that Cody was historically a loner, but not aggressive. 

As for Toke being the instigator, of course it's possible as I can't watch them 24/7. However, I have witnessed from the window that Toke will just be laying in the grass, no bone/toy/anything, and Cody will run clear across the yard at him. Toke rolls over and shows his belly and Cody will bite him.

Also, and maybe I should've mentioned this in the first post, but if Cody sees another dog walking down the street, he'll bark at it and then sometimes turn around and bite Toke before Toke even knows what's happening, as if Toke is a surrogate for the other dog. It seems Cody is very territorial, and will sit and stare out the window at the street all day. Toke couldn't care less, and typically lies at my feet rather than at a window. He only starts barking when he hears Cody get agitated.

I've reached out to a trainer in my area, and am awaiting a call back.

Has anyone heard of this guy or have other recommendations? Charlotte, NC area (28205)

Andy Hanellin
Dogs By Andy K-9 Services - Dogs By Andy K-9 Services

Thanks


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I have no input on that guy. But in general yeah, I would look for the words K9 as opposed to click and treat or positive only for this issue!

The other dog thing was not to single you out, pretty much general advise everyone should at least be aware of. 

And it was a bit unclear as to if you were allowing Cody to interact with other dogs. As you can see the other dog thing is a strict no.

And no you can't watch them 24/7 your GSD does not sound like he is displaying any Dominate behavior?? Mine certainly was! No mistaking "who" was the cause of the "problems" in my case. I think you got the culprit nailed down.

Yep most of us "pet people" miss the early warning signs!!?? In my case, I know my front door everybody go Le Mans style door release was uh...not wise.:blush:

The things in blue above are steps you can take to start managing the situation while you look for solutions.

It's a fairly unique situation usually it's three or more?? The one think I would start doing is more one on "walks" with the trouble maker. That is something I did do with my guy and his "pack issues" never got that solved myself. But it did help with his next "issues"..."Human Aggression!"

Keep a drag leash on the dog (short leash) with no handle to get caught up on furniture. Consider the use of a muzzle on the culprit. Consider the use of a crate and don't allow them to be unsupervised together. You don't need two dogs with issues!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A quick look at that site but, I don't see the words "behavior modification???"

Try looking here for something local to you.:
http://solidk9training.com/faq/#prettyPhoto/19/

http://solidk9training.com/

And I'm sure members here can also find you a solid trainer. Finding a good trainer is a task in itself!


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## t_reth (Apr 29, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> A quick look at that site but, I don't see the words "behavior modification???"
> 
> Try looking here for something local to you.:
> FAQ – Solid K9 Training
> ...


Thanks, but just FYI, the links come up as "Not Found". For me at least.

I'm still waiting to hear back from the trainer I contacted, looking around for others as well.


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