# When NO just isn't enough



## Lauri & The Gang

I'm catching up on posts and I'm finding more and more posts where we (dog owners) tell others to NOT do something - do NOT try to pet my dog, do NOT allow your dog to run up to mine, etc.

I am one of the most polite people in the world. I was raised to always say please and thank you, hold the door open for the next person (regardless of gender) and to never speak negatively to someone (unless truly warranted) and I maintain those behaviors ... except when stupid people do stupid things around my dogs.

For example, Mauser is dog aggressive/reactive. If I'm out walking him and someone is approaching us with their dog off leash I will yell to them to get their dog on leash NOW.

I YELL - *Put Your Dog ONLEASH* *NOW*! I don't speak in a normal tone of voice and it's not a suggestion - it's a *COMMAND*.

If they start with the "it's ok, my dog is friendly" or whatever - I don't bother with explaining that my dog isn't or anything like that.

I switch to my inner-guttergirl personality and I yell the following (using the F word) ...

*Get Your BLEEPING dog on Leash Right the BLEEP NOW!!!*

I use the F word because it's crass and nasty and bad and it gets people's attention like no other word!

I don't know these people. I don't care if they think I'm bad or whatever. I just want to be able to avoid having to put my dog to sleep because their unleashed dog ran up to 'say Hi' and mine mauled it.

I have a friend that takes pepper spray and an air horn with her when she walks her dog. She's been rushed several times by off-leash dogs while their owners lollygag behind saying "It's ok, Spot just wants to say Hi." only to have Spot attack her dogs.

Now she yells once then sprays if the owner doesn't call their dogs away from hers.


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## APBTLove

I'm getting to that point. I'm quiet and polite but I am so tired of it. People have zero respect these days for others.


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## Lucy Dog

Good post and I can see exactly where you're coming from. I can feel the aggravation from your post, so I'm guessing this has happened quite a few times to you.

Personally, I'd have no problem kicking an off leash dog rushing us with my boot while their owner watches. Most likely it's not the dogs fault it's put in that situation, but I'll do what I have to do to avoid a dog fight while my dogs on leash.

How many times do owners say, "oh he's friendly", and it's the complete opposite...?


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## arycrest

You gotta do whatever works best. I normally try to remail civil but will yell, curse, whatever it takes in order to avoid problems, especially at vets ... for some reason I have more problems in the vet's waiting room than any other place.


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## TimberGSD2

I do this now even if I don't have my dog. I run trails 3-4 days a week and while I have no problem with people who have control over their offleash dogs I really am tired of having to stop during my run, turn around and return someones offleash dog that has decided to run with me. Or the peoples dogs who come up aggressively to me while running. That in my opinion is absolutely unacceptable. Unfortunately that is why I stopped taking my dogs with me to certain trails to run.


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## fuzzybunny

I let my dogs run off leash in the field behind my apartment building. If I see another dog in the distance I will leash both of mine because I've heard the whole "my dog is friendly" when it's not song and dance. The majority of people will call their dogs back and leash them whenever they see me leash mine. Seeing an owner suddenly leash their two large Shepherds is usually a sign and most people take it as such but it always surprises me when you encounter that one person who doesn't. I had just that happen. 

The owner allowed her two small dogs to run up to mine even though she saw me leash mine and had plenty of time to call hers back. Both her dogs were aggressive and started barking and attempting to bite. My girl whipped around me and pinned the little dog. I don't know if the little dog got bit or not but the owner said, "Sorry, sometimes they're like that. I should have leashed them." Ummm...yeah you should have. Especially when you admit they are sometimes aggressive. People never cease to amaze me. 

I don't carry anything with me but if a dog acts aggressive towards my dogs I no longer have a problem slightly kicking them away. I don't me kicking them like a soccer ball, but rather more guiding them away with my leg. I rather take the bite then have my dogs getting into a messy situation.


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## Kittilicious

There are quite a few posts of owners doing everything they can do and problems still arise. We, as owners, can do everything in our power to protect ourselves, our dogs and others and we are still told that we are not in control of our dogs or that we should have done things differently. Well, hey - if people would grow a brain and listen when a dog owner says "no" then a lot of problems would be avoided completely.


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## ShadowBandit

When we got our first dog Shadow, we were walking her around the neighborhood and two dogs being DRAGGEd by teenagers came flying towards my dog. They weren't barking or growling so I figured they were friendly. So I called out "We're friendly too!" and let Shadow proceed towards the other dogs since she loves meeting new dogs. When they got close enough to touch these other dogs flipped out. The teenagers never said anything and I had to yank my dog away from being bit. My boyfriend makes fun of me when we walk past there house, going "We're friendly too!" but it makes me so mad that those teenagers didn't say a thing!


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## cowboy17

There are leash laws for a reason.
Unless the area I am in is completely secure, doggy stays on leash.

IF there is that instance where "It's ok, he just wats to say hi", I resort to the F-word immediately. No cordiallity here. I then proceed to lecture them on the reasons why there are leash laws.

Some people though just don't get it and never will.


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## catbaloodryer

*well now*

I can see why your dog is dog aggressive, having broken 2 GS and a pitbull of this trait I have to say

Stop F yelling and maybe your dog will not be so aggressive. You expect your dog to be aggressive and he/she's just pleasing you.

Dogs react to the people and when they feel the tension they go for it, cuz some breed just like to rumble.

Know I'm gonna get flamed but like I said have broken 3 dogs of this trait


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## Twyla

catbaloodryer said:


> I can see why your dog is dog aggressive, having broken 2 GS and a pitbull of this trait I have to say
> 
> Stop F yelling and maybe your dog will not be so aggressive. You expect your dog to be aggressive and he/she's just pleasing you.
> 
> Dogs react to the people and when they feel the tension they go for it, cuz some breed just like to rumble.
> 
> Know I'm gonna get flamed but like I said have broken 3 dogs of this trait


How sad for your dogs that you look at training as 'breaking them'. When it comes to protecting my dog, whatever is required is what will be done. And I think that goes for most on here.... except of course you since you have 'broken' your dog.


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## Jax08

catbaloodryer said:


> I can see why your dog is dog aggressive, having broken 2 GS and a pitbull of this trait I have to say
> 
> Stop F yelling and maybe your dog will not be so aggressive. You expect your dog to be aggressive and he/she's just pleasing you.
> 
> Dogs react to the people and when they feel the tension they go for it, cuz some breed just like to rumble.
> 
> Know I'm gonna get flamed but like I said have broken 3 dogs of this trait


WHO are you talking to? Did you read this thread?


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## fuzzybunny

Twyla said:


> How sad for your dogs that you look at training as 'breaking them'. When it comes to protecting my dog, whatever is required is what will be done. And I think that goes for most on here.... except of course you since you have 'broken' your dog.


I think there's a difference between breaking a dog of a trait vs. breaking the dog. PP never said he/she was breaking his/her dogs. 

I think there is some merit in what PP is saying. Our dogs definitely pick up on our energy IMO so it's a balancing act between exerting the right energy and also being proactive in order to avoid a situation. The dog doesn't know the F word so if were aware and try to remain calming and assertive it shouldn't matter if the F word is used or not.


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## Jax08

I'm so lost on this thread from the last few posts....Lauri isn't yelling the F word at her dogs, nor are they aggressive. She's yelling at the person with the off lead dog or the person who isn't listening when she says NO.


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## Snarly

Yes, her dog is aggressive because she curses. 



catbaloodryer said:


> Stop F yelling and maybe your dog will not be so aggressive.


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## Courtney

It's amazing the confidence I have gained since getting my boy I consider myself a polite person but when it comes to my dog I will body block, say no you can't pet my dog, get your dog away, yes you can pet my dog but approach him like this, etc. 

I HATE HATE when a owner of a dog says "spot just wants to say hi or play". I will not let my dog interact with a unknown dog..period.

My experience has been the worst in the vets waiting area where people want to let their dogs sniff and greet each other. I walk in like I have a chip on my shoulder and everyone leaves me alone:blush:


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## Snarly

Same here. I am always happily surprised when someone comes up (not close) and asks me if it is okay if they pet Nova and then does it in a calm manner.
I remember once this man was being dragged over to me by his dog as I sat on the bench with Nova and as he was yelling "oh don't worry he's friendly!" I said with a dead serious expression " we'll she is not, do not let your dog come over here." Not entirely true, but it seems for me the only thing that makes people stay away is if they think my dog is mean. The evil looks I get sometimes .




Courtney said:


> I consider myself a polite person but when it comes to my dog I will body block, say no you can't pet my dog, get your dog away, yes you can pet my dog but approach him like this, etc.


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## Meekah's Bud

Courtney said:


> It's amazing the confidence I have gained since getting my boy I consider myself a polite person but when it comes to my dog I will body block, say no you can't pet my dog, get your dog away, yes you can pet my dog but approach him like this, etc.
> 
> I HATE HATE when a owner of a dog says "spot just wants to say hi or play". I will not let my dog interact with a unknown dog..period.
> 
> My experience has been the worst in the vets waiting area where people want to let their dogs sniff and greet each other. I walk in like I have a chip on my shoulder and everyone leaves me alone:blush:


"My experience has been the worst in the vets waiting area where people want to let their dogs sniff and greet each other. I walk in like I have a chip on my shoulder and everyone leaves me alone"

Had a similar experience a few weeks ago when I had to take my girl to the vet. We had just finished basic obedience, the week before, and when we walked, in the vet's office was empty. When I went to the counter, Meekah was told to lie down which she did right away and then told to stay. Another owner then brought a golden lab in and proceeded to let the lab long leash towards Meekah. Twice I asked him, politely, to pull his dog back away from Meekah who, to her credit was still in the down position, and he still persisted to allow his dog to approach. I finally told him that if he wished I would allow Meekah to interact but he was paying for his own vet bills and they would be substantial. Strangely enough, this did not deter him, so I allowed Meekah to come to the sit position, which apparently made her look a bit different as he finally pulled his dog away. Just as I wanted, Meekah dropped right back to the down position on command. Both the vet and the assistant commented on how well behaved my girl was and the vet told the other guy that if tried something like that again, he could go elsewhere.


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## 4TheDawgies

Its amazing what an assertive tone and and a please will do. I often times get weird people with disgusting animals trying to let their dogs interact with mine. All of mine are friendly, but I refuse to allow my dogs to say hello to random dogs that I know nothing about. So I say it A LOT. 

"Please do NOT let your dog say hello to mine!" 

The only dogs my dogs will interact with is ones that I have gotten to know through training appointments and I know they are vaccinated, well cared for, they owner will allow me to do whatever I need to their dog to keep things safe, and they use flea and tick preventatives. 

My dogs ended up with fleas last year because some IDIOT let their flea bag of a mutt near my dogs. 

So thats it, no more. 

I very rarely have to do much more than that because I will put my dog into a platz and begin walking towards their dog body blocking it. Usually people want to "protect" their dog from me because they've never seen someone assertively approach their dog and begin blocking it from getting past and they grab them as soon as possible. I don't play around. No dog is getting near mine without my knowing their background first. It is absolutely not worth it to me. 

I have pepper spray and a heck of a sailor mouth with half latina blood in me. Haven't had to use either with the method I've been using.

The only thing I've had to do is raise my voice and say "I SAID do NOT let your dog Greet mine!"




_____


in addition to greeting my dogs. I have had some downright STUPID people in my store walk in with their mutts offleash and let them pee and poop all over the store I work at. The one that boiled my blood the most was this...

I was ringing up a customer who had an infant no older than 6 months in a carrier that he briefly set on the floor to grab her wallet. In comes this woman with her dog that runs full force at the baby and JUMPED on the baby.

I started yelling at that point and said "EXCUSE ME put your dog on a LEASH and get it out of here! IT JUST JUMPED ON AN INFANT"

She had the nerve to get mad at me. The mother of the child thanked me. 

What makes people think letting their dog offleash in a store, let alone letting it jump on an infant is in any way OK?!?!?!? COMMON SENSE PEOPLE!!


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## Good_Karma

I think every single time Niko and I have been charged by off-leash dogs, the owner has been nowhere to be found. I think people just put their dogs outside before work in the morning and assume no one is going to come walking by the house with another dog. So anyway, I pepper spray first, and if I happen to see the owner come out (because they finally were alerted to the problem by all the barking), I will straight up tell them that I just pepper sprayed their dog and they better come get it.

I spent nearly $1000 this year on training for Niko to get over his fear of other dogs and have made practically no progress because we keep running into these --insert crude word of your choice-- loose dogs. I've absolutely had ENOUGH of it. I will not ask that the owner contain their dog, I will just turn around and go a different way and if the dog gets close enough I will spray the heck out of it.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have been done being polite a long time ago 

The biggest peeve I have is people who let their dogs get in my dogs face, let them charge my dog, have loose dogs charging my dog,,and the worse one is "OH MY DOG IS FRIENDLY" bit...so over that stuff.

I carry pepper spray,,,and when I get the "OH MY DOG IS FRIENDLY"< while their dog is coming at me 90 mph, I YELL< "MINE ISN"T AND I"M NOT PAYING YOUR VET BILL" 

Sometimes it makes them step a little faster , sometimes not,,but I have been known to throw the F bomb around quite a bit when it comes to stupid owners


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## GSDolch

The F word never phases me, most curse words don't lol. But I don't let my dog run off leash unless its a fenced in area. It does get rather annoying having people not listen. I have a walking stick that I take with me to deal with dogs. Sometimes just a simple hitting of the ground as they charge is enough, or the owner seeing me get ready to start swinging if their dog is charging. (keyword here, charging..aggressively. I don't just automatically go to hit the dog) Sometimes just a tap on the dog is enough too, to get its attention.

If I get really mad and the owners aren't listening its usually something like "get you g-d dog before I break my stick over its head!" (not really, unless the dog was going to attack or something.)


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## Zisso

The F word doesn't seem to phase anyone at my local park. I have even gone so far as to report a lady to a cop that was sitting in the park. And I did first ask her to please leash her dog for its own safety. Her response was that I should not have 'vicious dogs' in a public park!! I see dogs off leash there ALL the time. 

So since they do it, I have just started doing it too! 

Now mind you, I go at times when there is not likely to be any dogs there, I stay in open areas so I can watch for other dogs and I am training, so the other dogs are good distractions and I always read my dogs body language. 

Just today, I took Nadia there. Took her to the ball field and worked on the off leash BH routine. I am currently working on the down in motion. She was doing a fabulous job. As I was recalling her after a down in motion, I saw her glance off to the right. I let her do her front finish and looked up, and sure enough, there were two little white poodles, walking off leash! I gotta say that this was a proud moment because she came to me and those little ones were only a distraction and not lunch


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## Falkosmom

Myself, I am tired of out of control people screaming and swearing at me because my well behaved unleashed non-dog-aggressive dog is walking with me and totally ignoring some raging lunatic with an out of control dog. Unbelievable! Focus on your problem dog people!

On the other hand, I would not have the audacity to attack innocent people or their pets because my other dog has some issues with dog reactivity. Since when does verbally abusing peaceable friendly people and their like pets replace getting not just your dog under control, but yourself as well? 

Dog owners behaving badly can be a two way street. I have dogs from each side of the spectrum. First, I control myself, then my dog, problem solved. No drama.


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## Jack's Dad

Falkosmom said:


> Myself, I am tired of out of control people screaming and swearing at me because my well behaved unleashed non-dog-aggressive dog is walking with me and totally ignoring some raging lunatic with an out of control dog. Unbelievable! Focus on your problem dog people!
> 
> On the other hand, I would not have the audacity to attack innocent people or their pets because my other dog has some issues with dog reactivity. Since when does verbally abusing peaceable friendly people and their like pets replace getting not just your dog under control, but yourself as well?
> 
> Dog owners behaving badly can be a two way street. I have dogs from each side of the spectrum. First, I control myself, then my dog, problem solved. No drama.


OMG where did you come from. You seem like a reasonable sensible person. Hang in there.


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## Syaoransbear

I think saying loudly, "LEASH YOUR DOG, MINE IS AGGRESSIVE AND WILL ATTACK YOURS" would be more effective than just screaming and swearing at someone to leash their dog without giving a reason. When you are just swearing at them they will likely become defensive and resistant to follow any 'commands' you've given them. 

If someone was screaming and swearing at me, I'd probably think "What's your problem?". If someone is screaming at me that their dog will injure mine, I'm going to be leashing up my dog very, very quickly because I care about my dog being injured much more than I care about what some stranger wants me to do.

Also, I can't imagine screaming at other people is very helpful to your dog's aggression issues. Wouldn't that escalate them?


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## Falkosmom

Sorry, I still think that demanding, commanding, or even pleasantly requesting other people to put their dog on a leash because your dog has issues that you cannot control is not the least bit acceptable. If you are concerned about your abilities to control your dog around other dogs, then perhaps you should refrain from putting both yourself and your dog in these situations before somebody gets hurt.

And thank you Andy!


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## brembo

Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, I still think that demanding, commanding, or even pleasantly requesting other people to put their dog on a leash because your dog has issues that you cannot control is not the least bit acceptable. If you are concerned about your abilities to control your dog around other dogs, then perhaps you should refrain from putting both yourself and your dog in these situations before somebody gets hurt.
> 
> And thank you Andy!


If someones dog is not listening to them and approaches your dog...it's not their problem? If your dog does not approach and is acting properly...then no problem but that is not the issue at hand. The OP is upset with dogs that run up and get dog reactive dogs riled up while the owner is being a tool and not controlling their animal.


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## Jessiewessie99

Sorry, I don't want someone else's dog running wildly running up to my dogs who are doing nothing and minding their own business. The other owner is at fault, not me. I should be able to walk my dogs without someone's dog running around like crazy. Also I don't go around cursing at people(I have no issue with curse words) my dogs will pick up on that, just yelling curse words at people doesn't do much. 

Yes, I have had an unleashed dog come running up to my dog and me when we were minding our business. It is not the most pleasant feeling in the world.


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## GSDolch

Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, I still think that demanding, commanding, or even pleasantly requesting other people to put their dog on a leash because your dog has issues that you cannot control is not the least bit acceptable. If you are concerned about your abilities to control your dog around other dogs, then perhaps you should refrain from putting both yourself and your dog in these situations before somebody gets hurt.
> 
> And thank you Andy!



I disagree, if I am somewhere that has a leash law and dogs are suppose to be on leash, it is NOT unacceptable to tell someone with an unleashed dog to leash up their dog. Its actually nicer than calling the cops and getting them a ticket.

I try to start of being nice...usually just blocking with my stick works, but if I have to I have and will get more forceful. 

Perhaps, if it is the LAW the dog be leashed, people should refrain from breaking it before putting their dog or themselves in situations that could get them hurt.


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## Jessiewessie99

GSDolch said:


> I disagree, if I am somewhere that has a leash law and dogs are suppose to be on leash, it is NOT unacceptable to tell someone with an unleashed dog to leash up their dog. Its actually nicer than calling the cops and getting them a ticket.
> 
> I try to start of being nice...usually just blocking with my stick works, but if I have to I have and will get more forceful.
> 
> Perhaps, if it is the LAW the dog be leashed, people should refrain from breaking it before putting their dog or themselves in situations that could get them hurt.


:thumbup:

There is a leash law in Lakewood, and there are a few people who live near me who believe the law doesn't apply to them.


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## CarrieJ

JakodaCD OA said:


> I have been done being polite a long time ago
> 
> The biggest peeve I have is people who let their dogs get in my dogs face, let them charge my dog, have loose dogs charging my dog,,and the worse one is "OH MY DOG IS FRIENDLY" bit...so over that stuff.
> 
> I carry pepper spray,,,and when I get the "OH MY DOG IS FRIENDLY"< while their dog is coming at me 90 mph, I YELL<* "MINE ISN"T AND I"M NOT PAYING YOUR VET BILL" *
> 
> Sometimes it makes them step a little faster , sometimes not,,but I have been known to throw the F bomb around quite a bit when it comes to stupid owners


Classic! Good answer to the "my dog is friendly"

I have noticed with most off leash dogs that aren't in dog parks/or fenced in areas; that 99% of them are NOT doing a training session. They are like the You Tube Video: Jesus Christ in the park (I can't remember the name of the park....Jefferson?)....it's a lab named Fenton who is just flipping it's owner the bird while chasing a herd of red deer. Towards a road. It's funny.....and it's not funny at the same time. I laughed at the vid, but felt sad at the same time.

You hear:
"Fluffy! Fluffy! Fluffy! Commere! Comere! Come! Come Here! Fluffy! FLUFFY!!!!! COMMERE!!!!!" or some variation of this.
With absolutely no sense of recall whatsoever.

We've actually been told a couple of times with two different dogs and two different streets; to not walk down "their street" by owners....REALLY?....That has about as much of a chance happening as a snowball lasting in the lower regions of someplace.


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## Falkosmom

No, I am talking about people with aggressive dogs that go off on a verbal onslaught on people with dogs that are off leash that are not bothering with them or their dog. My dog and I are minding our own business, please do likewise.

And, honestly, being that my other dog is dog reactive, especially on leash, I still do not take it upon myself to "instruct" the next guy in any form as to what he should or should not do with his unleashed social dog. I mind my own business and focus on getting and keeping my dog under control. I do not blame my dog's unacceptable behavior on the next guy. This is my problem, not his.

What I do take issue with is people with unleashed aggressive dogs that do not have them under verbal or any other control.


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## Syaoransbear

Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, I still think that demanding, commanding, or even pleasantly requesting other people to put their dog on a leash because your dog has issues that you cannot control is not the least bit acceptable. If you are concerned about your abilities to control your dog around other dogs, then perhaps you should refrain from putting both yourself and your dog in these situations before somebody gets hurt.
> 
> And thank you Andy!


The person with their dog off leash is breaking the law, so I definitely think it's acceptable to tell them to stop breaking the law, especially when it could result in one or both dogs getting hurt. It would be different if the OP was walking in a dog park and demanding that everyone leash their dogs. Then that would be putting yourself in a poor situation.

Also, everyone starts somewhere. You can't just stop walking your dog and expect the dog aggression issues to disappear.


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## Falkosmom

I have to admit, with my dog aggressive dog, I view every dog, leashed or unleashed, as a training opportunity.

And yes, that is what I am talking about, people with dog aggressive dogs demanding that all dogs they encounter be leashed, whether a dog approaches their dog or not.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> No, I am talking about people with aggressive dogs that go off on a verbal onslaught on people with dogs that are off leash that are not bothering with them or their dog. My dog and I are minding our own business, please do likewise.
> 
> And, honestly, being that my other dog is dog reactive, especially on leash, I still do not take it upon myself to "instruct" the next guy in any form as to what he should or should not do with his unleashed social dog. I mind my own business and focus on getting and keeping my dog under control. I do not blame my dog's unacceptable behavior on the next guy. This is my problem, not his.
> 
> What I do take issue with is people with unleashed aggressive dogs that do not have them under verbal or any other control.


Can you clarify... Where are you talking about? Is this at a dog beach or dog park where it's allowed or is there an area that's open to the public and there are leash laws?


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## Falkosmom

It is a very large public park where the land was donated to the city so that the people may ride their horses and run their dogs. As times have changed in the city, there no longer are any horses. The city does have a leash law, but the local animal control tends to turn a blind eye to this pariticular park because of its original purpose.

There are small dog parks within this park, but most people avoid using them as they are usually full of dog aggressive dogs.

Just an interesting fact, the park borders some unsavory neighborhoods, but it is well known for being an exceptionally safe place to be due to the large number of unleashed dogs, the police seldom patrol it.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> It is a very large public park where the land was donated to the city so that the people may ride their horses and run their dogs. As times have changed in the city, there no longer are any horses. The city does have a leash law, but the local animal control tends to turn a blind eye to this pariticular park because of its original purpose.
> 
> There are small dog parks within this park, but most people avoid using them as they are usually full of dog aggressive dogs.
> 
> Just an interesting fact, the park borders some unsavory neighborhoods, but it is well known for being an exceptionally safe place to be due to the large number of unleashed dogs, the police seldom patrol it.


So there are leash laws at this park? Yes or no? 

And by law, it's open to the public so anyone can go there... children, families, leashed dogs, whatever?

Are there fenced off areas where only dogs can be and they're allowed off leash away from the general public?


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## Falkosmom

City leash laws, yes. Public park, yes. Two fenced in dog parks, one on four sides, one on three. (Yes, you read that correct).

The usual restrictions for dog parks, no unsupervised children, no alcohol, no females in heat, no aggressive dogs, etc. Most is ignored.

Long standing stand off between the people and the local government regarding the leash laws there. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that their are stipulations in the title of the land that it will revert back to original ownership once it ceases to be used as intended. That would mean since there are no horses, once the park is not being used to run dogs, they would lose title to the property and everybody would lose the park.

Local authorities do not normally enforce the leash laws unless recieving complaints regarding aggressive dogs, usually dog aggressive dogs, then they might come down and ticket.


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## Lucy Dog

Well, here's what common sense and my own experience is telling me...

If it's fenced in and away from the general public where other dogs are off leash (like your typical "dog park") than yeah, your dog has every right to be off leash and no one should tell you otherwise.

If you're in an open area in a public park and your dog's off leash where there are leash laws and it's not fenced in than you absolutely should have that dog on leash at all times. People have no idea if your dog is friendly or not and they don't want to take their chances hoping he is. Dogs can be very unpredictable and react a lot faster than their handlers/owners do. 

Leash your dogs where the law says you need to. It's common human courtesy and above all, it's the law. No one should think they're above law - friendly dog or not. If you're breaking the law in a public area shared by everyone than someone has every right to tell you to leash your dog.


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## Falkosmom

I do grab my dog by the collar so as not to intimdate other people when we pass. People have the right to feel and be safe.

I am saying that a person does not have a right to tell another what to do because their dog is a problem dog. 

Once again, I would never tell or expect anybody to leash their dog when I have my dog reactive dog out. My problem is my problem, I will assume full responsibility for my leashed dog reactive dog.

I would never presume that trying to force my wants on another will correct my dog's bad behavior.


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## Lucy Dog

But that's the thing... when you're breaking the law, they do have that right. It's the law. It might not be what you want to hear or follow, but the law says you have to leash your dog and you're not doing it. Someone has every right to tell you to follow the rules/laws that everyone is expected to follow.

If there are leash laws, why do you feel you don't need to follow them?


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## Falkosmom

I am not disagreeing with an unleashed dog breaking the law. 

The point I am making is that if you have a dog aggressive dog, quit blaming anything and everything and nothing. It is your dog that has the problem. I am just saying assume responsibility for your dog. Quit using illegal unleashed dogs as an excuse for your dogs bad behavior, address the root of the problem.

I am working very hard with my pup and his aggressive issues, I have also made alot of progressive by focusing on him, not the next guy. I just don't see how leashing every dog, cat, squirrel, and rabbit is going to improve a dog aggressive dog's behavior.


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## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> I am not disagreeing with an unleashed dog breaking the law.
> 
> The point I am making is that if you have a dog aggressive dog, quit blaming anything and everything and nothing. It is your dog that has the problem. I am just saying assume responsibility for your dog. Quit using illegal unleashed dogs as an excuse for your dogs bad behavior, address the root of the problem.
> 
> I am working very hard with my pup and his aggressive issues, I have also made alot of progressive by focusing on him, not the next guy. I just don't see how leashing every dog, cat, squirrel, and rabbit is going to improve a dog aggressive dog's behavior.


I don't think someone who is following the law by walking their dog on a leash and not misbehaving is the problem. Its the idiots who let their dogs just run up to strange dogs who they don't a thing about and thinking all dogs will like their dog.


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## Falkosmom

What do I have against leashing my dog? I just think a dog should have opportunity just to be a dog and do what dogs do. What an awful life to be constantly tethered and fenced.

Of course, it has to be where the dog can do no harm nor be harmed.


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## Lucy Dog

I think they are taking responsibility by leashing their dog and not allowing their dogs to roam, but those are the responsible ones. Not all dog owners are responsible and some owners allow their reactive or aggressive dogs off leash. That's where the problem lies and that's why there are leash laws. 

People are telling you to leash your dog (in area where there are leash laws) because they don't know your dog from the next. They have no idea if your dog is friendly or not. They don't know if your dog is going to stay by your side or run up and jump on their dog. They just don't want to sit around and hope for the best. If you encounter enough off leash dogs, eventually you're going to come across the wrong one and it's all because their owner feels they don't need to follow the law.

Keeping dogs leashed in public places is not about trying to improve dog's behaviors. It's not a socialization thing. It's about keeping dogs safe and that's all these people are doing when they tell you to stop breaking the law. The law is for everyone, not a select few who think they make their own rules and laws. Please start following them.


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## Falkosmom

I agree with you concerning dogs loose and approaching, but I am not talking about dogs that are loose and running up to other dogs.

I am talking dogs such as my older male that is walking with me and minding his own business and not bothering anybody.


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## Syaoransbear

Falkosmom said:


> I do grab my dog by the collar so as not to intimdate other people when we pass. People have the right to feel and be safe.
> 
> I am saying that a person does not have a right to tell another what to do because their dog is a problem dog.
> 
> Once again, I would never tell or expect anybody to leash their dog when I have my dog reactive dog out. My problem is my problem, I will assume full responsibility for my leashed dog reactive dog.
> 
> I would never presume that trying to force my wants on another will correct my dog's bad behavior.


I think it's noble of you to accept that your problem is your problem and that other people shouldn't have to make allowances for your dogs issues, but I think a person would like to at least be informed that the dog their dog is approaching is aggressive. I know it's good training for yours, but other people might not want their dogs to be used as guinea pigs to help train your dog. 

So I guess you don't have to tell someone to leash up their dog, but a warning that your dog is aggressive is appreciated.


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## Lucy Dog

If he's just walking with you than what's the big deal with the leash? I figured he was off romping around with a decent size distance from you. 

If he's just walking by your side and you guys are just minding your own business than just put the leash on the dog like everyone else is expected to do. 

What's the big deal? Does he act different when he's on leash vs off leash?


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## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> What do I have against leashing my dog? I just think a dog should have opportunity just to be a dog and do what dogs do. What an awful life to be constantly tethered and fenced.
> 
> Of course, it has to be where the dog can do no harm nor be harmed.


My dogs are not constantly tethered nor are they constantly fenced. I feel safer with a leash because I will have more control of the situation if some random dog comes running up to us. I have every right to tell someone to leash their dogs if I feel I am threatened or I feel my dog is being threatened.


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## Falkosmom

I am sorry that you have had such bad experiences. Sincerely.

I too have had bad experiences, that is why I do not go into dog parks anymore.


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## Falkosmom

Where do you go to give your dog freedom?


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## Falkosmom

It is not expected in this particular park for dogs to be on a leash. It is rare to encounter a leashed dog, and it is usually a dog aggressive dog, and most people control their dogs and move on.

However, I have encountered people with DA dogs that just started going off about my dog peaceably walking at my side. (I don't make him walk at my side, this is where he chooses to be.)

There are plenty of parks in the area such as you are talking about with strict leash laws, you either leash your dog or you don't go there. This is not one of those parks. This park works with the dog people, they regularly meet with them to discuss issues, it is not the same.

I also tell people with unleashed DA dogs to get their dog away from my dog. It is my duty to protect my non aggessive dog.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> Where do you go to give your dog freedom?


I typically go to baseball fields. There are tons around here and they are all large and fenced in. It's away from other dogs and people and the dog can get her daily off leash times. Just always remember to bring plenty of poop bags.

There are also a few hiking trails near the water where controlled dogs are allowed off leash. I'll go there from time to time.



Falkosmom said:


> I also tell people with unleashed DA dogs to get their dog away from my dog. It is my duty to protect my non aggessive dog.


You're absolutely right that you do. I think that's what the OP was trying to say with her first post, she just didn't want to wait around and hope that the dog wasn't DA. She just assumed, and rightfully so, that the dog is aggressive and the dog should be leashed where the law says so. In my opinion, she's completely right for thinking that way. Why should she have to leave it up to chance?


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## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Where do you go to give your dog freedom?


I use the school across the street on the weekends, its a huge area that is fenced and we are the only ones who go over there. I take my dogs walking in the neighborhood with a leash and play with them in their yard. I also take my dogs to the beach and walk along the walking paths they have. I don't just let my dogs roam wherever they please. My dogs are actually quite happy with their lives.


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## Falkosmom

I never let my dogs roam as they please. I have a fenced in yard and they are house dogs. 

However, I do take them to the park to run. As stated before, this particular park was donated for the express purposes of running ones dogs. There are plenty of parks around with strict leash laws, I do not go to them.

This park is the only place in the area where dogs can safely run loose.

There are tons of trails and ball parks and game preserves in this area, most prohibit dogs altogether, or have very strict leash laws.

I do not live in the best of neighborhoods and walking the dogs in the neighborhood would be very unsafe for them and myself. I would not be able to ensure their safety.


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## Falkosmom

And thank you for all of the wonderful suggestions. I wish I had more options, but this is not a dog friendly area of the country.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> However, I do take them to the park to run. As stated before, this particular park was donated for the express purposes of running ones dogs. There are plenty of parks around with strict leash laws, I do not go to them.
> 
> This park is the only place in the area where dogs can safely run loose.


Maybe I'm missing something, but you're contradicting yourself. Is this the place where people have yelled at you to leash your dog?

You said that there's leash laws, but now you're saying that this place allows dogs to run off leash. Which one is it? 

If the park allows for dogs to be off leash than you have every right to be upset with someone who tells you to leash your dog.... i feel like I'm going in circles here. Maybe i just need to go to sleep. :crazy:


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## Falkosmom

LOL! This is a situation that goes in circles. Park donated for dogs to run, city later got leash laws, ongoing situation with people vs city leash laws for years. Due to circumstances, animal control only comes and tags when receiving too many dog aggression calls. Elsewise, they tacitly let you run your dogs there as long as there is not trouble, even though there are leash laws.

It is kind of like one of those laws on the books that is not normally enforced, although it exists.


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## Kittilicious

Lucy Dog said:


> If he's just walking with you than what's the big deal with the leash? I figured he was off romping around with a decent size distance from you.
> 
> If he's just walking by your side and you guys are just minding your own business than just put the leash on the dog like everyone else is expected to do.
> 
> What's the big deal? Does he act different when he's on leash vs off leash?


Whats the big deal is right. So what if he is off leash? Leash or not, it does not stop ANOTHER dog from running up to a dog. If you know your dog will not run away from your side, then so what if he's on a leash or not? That isn't the issue... it's the owners who know their dogs will go up to other dogs that should have their dogs on leashes. I think a well trained/behaved dog that will walk off leash deserves to walk off leash. 

An off leash dog that is running loose, under no control, is breaking the law. Not a dog that unleashed but the owner still *has control over*. There is a huge difference. I highly doubt ANY cop is going to stop someone who has a perfectly behaved dog walking along side of them and ticket them for their dog not being on a leash.


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## DJEtzel

I've only been charged by a loose dog on a walk once. I've encountered loose dogs numerous times, but usually they are under voice control or aren't bothersome.

This dog was friendly I'm sure, but I was walking my dog aggressive Boston Terrier... all 'roided up. She bolted out of a house when a teenage boy was leaving and came barrelling towards us. LUCKILY my dog was small enough to pick up, or we would have had trouble. I yelled at the kid to call his dog as I picked mine up (growling and everything in the air) and he screamed "It's okay, she's friendly!". I kicked her when she got close because she was ready to jump and my dog would have nailed her. The kid started yelling at me to leave her alone because she was friendly, and when he got close enough to grab her I told him that mine most certainly wasn't though and his dog would have been attacked had I left mine on the ground. I told him to take his dog and get inside so that we could continue our walk. UGH.


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## Zisso

I don't think it would concern me if a well behaved dog was walking with it's owner off leash as long as it stayed away from us. My dogs do not like other dogs getting in their faces or close to me. 

There is a site on Face Book that describes dogs like mine called DINOS and people who let their dogs run up to dogs like mine should read it.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/DINOS-Dogs-in-Need-of-Space/251550661567160

Perhaps then there would be less people saying "He's Friendly" as their dog charges us.

It is not a matter of me being unable to control my dog. I can do that quite well because I keep them on leash where need be. However, if a dog comes charging at us, all bets are off. Simple as that!


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## Lucy Dog

Kittilicious said:


> Whats the big deal is right. So what if he is off leash? Leash or not, it does not stop ANOTHER dog from running up to a dog. If you know your dog will not run away from your side, then so what if he's on a leash or not? That isn't the issue... it's the owners who know their dogs will go up to other dogs that should have their dogs on leashes. I think a well trained/behaved dog that will walk off leash deserves to walk off leash.
> 
> An off leash dog that is running loose, under no control, is breaking the law. Not a dog that unleashed but the owner still *has control over*. There is a huge difference. I highly doubt ANY cop is going to stop someone who has a perfectly behaved dog walking along side of them and ticket them for their dog not being on a leash.


*It's the law.* Leash laws should only apply to the people who want to abide by it and no one else? Is it one of those non-mandatory laws?

Who are you or anyone else to say what laws we should follow and which ones we shouldn't have to follow?

Now if the park allows dogs off leash dogs under their owners control like a park near me than that's a different story, but that's not the case here. The rules of the park and the law says all dogs must be leashed. Why should this person not have to listen to those laws... because they don't want to?


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## LaRen616

I have found that I just dont like people.


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## Lucy Dog

LaRen616 said:


> I have found that I just dont like people.


That's true too. Not all people follow the "my friendly dog is walking by my side and not bothering anyone, so who cares" attitude.

When you're in a public place and someone sees a random person and their random dog off leash, it may make someone uncomfortable. They don't know the first thing about you or your dog and if it's really friendly or not.

It's really not fair to anyone because there's always that one idiot who lets their dog off leash who has no business doing so and a dog fight/attack breaks out. I think that's why there a leash laws... to avoid those idiots, not just to ruin for everyone.


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## LaRen616

I find it incredibly rude to reach out and try to pet my dog while asking if you can pet him or if he bites. 

Why dont you ask first before attempting to touch him!

I am the one that will bite.


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## evybear15

Baxter is dog-reactive right now. I keep him on a short leash when we go out for walks, and I make a point to go all the way to the side of the trail/path that we're on if another dog is approaching.

I get SO mad when other people see me taking these precautions, and still allow their dogs to stay on a 10' leash and run straight for my dog. I have absolutely no problem with people who keep their dog on a loose leash or no leash at all so long as they are staying close to their owner, and are NOT approaching other dogs.

I start being polite if there's enough distance between my dog and their dog - I get progressively firmer the closer they get. Thankfully, people are usually understanding. I about went off on the lady who told me that maybe I shouldn't bring my "vicious" dog out in public - I keep him under control, and I do not allow him to approach other dogs at this point in his training. I shouldn't have to keep him confined because other owners can't understand that it isn't acceptable to allow their dogs to approach any and all dogs that they want.


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## Kittilicious

evybear15 said:


> I have absolutely no problem with people who keep their dog on a loose leash or no leash at all so long as they are staying close to their owner, and are NOT approaching other dogs.


Exactly. In fact, I would feel more comfortable walking by a dog that was walking obediently next to their owner than one who was pulling on the leash away from the owner. A leash is only a piece of fabric/leather that goes from the collar to the hand. It's the control & behavior of the dog that counts.

Leash laws were made because of the owners who cannot control their dogs off leash. It's a common sense law - if your dog cannot be controlled off leash, then it needs to be leashed. If the dog is controlled and you wouldn't know the difference if he had a leash attached to him & the owners hand unless you actually looked, then so what?


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## Lucy Dog

Kittilicious said:


> Exactly. In fact, I would feel more comfortable walking by a dog that was walking obediently next to their owner than one who was pulling on the leash away from the owner. A leash is only a piece of fabric/leather that goes from the collar to the hand. It's the control & behavior of the dog that counts.
> 
> Leash laws were made because of the owners who cannot control their dogs off leash. It's a common sense law - if your dog cannot be controlled off leash, then it needs to be leashed. If the dog is controlled and you wouldn't know the difference if he had a leash attached to him & the owners hand unless you actually looked, then so what?


If i wanted to encounter a bunch of unleashed dogs and their idiot owners, I'd go to a dog bark or dog beach. I don't trust most people when they say their friendly, so why should I trust you walking down the street or in a public park with your dog off leash? 

If you're in an area where the law is that all dogs must be leashed than *GET YOUR DOG ON LEASH!* Stop thinking you're above the law because you think your dog is friendly. The law applies to everyone - not just those who think it should apply to. 

Find somewhere else besides a leash mandatory place to exercise your dog off leash.


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## CaliBoy

My local law says that dogs must be leashed, unless they are trained to respond to your voice commands. I still encounter people who say they can control their dogs with voice commands, when they can't. A lot of folks do not seem to have much of a sense of etiquette or common sense consideration. They don't mean to be that way, but they are, and so I can understand why the OP would throw out "F" bombs. 

Even without a leash law, in public places and parks, it just seems like a logical courtesy to leash your dog when another dog is coming close. Like the OP said, what can be more important than avoiding attacks and bites and having your baby put to sleep? The 30 seconds to get the leash on is so little to ask for when your poor dog's life, or another dog's life, could be at stake. Dogs don't know better, but humans should.


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## LoveEcho

Falkosmom said:


> No, I am talking about people with aggressive dogs that go off on a verbal onslaught on people with dogs that are off leash that are not bothering with them or their dog.


This is definitely something I see both sides of. I live in a very rural area, and there's a state forest down the road that I like to hike around in with the dog, lay tracks, etc. There are very rarely other dogs there, or other people at all. If I do see other dogs, I will put Echo on leash (there are no leash laws in this park), because I don't know the other dog's behavior. What bugs me is the guy the other day who comes bounding out of the woods with a coonhound, on leash and totally out of control. Echo and I were doing off-leash obedience work, and he continued to walk next to me. He was interested in the other dog, but he didn't budge from my side. We stop, he sits, and the guy drags his dog away barking it's head off and trying to lunge at Echo. The guy has the nerve to give ME the "wtf, where's your leash?" I pointed to the dog and to the e-collar remote and said "it's invisible, where's your training?"

I think the overarching issue is people need to have control of their dogs in general... which I totally agree on. What I gathered from the OP's post was people who scream at THEIR own dogs (probably in situations around other dogs, where the dog then feels threatened because he believes his owner is)... I do agree that dogs whose owners cannot control their anger and act aggressively towards the dog tend to act aggressively in return... just my $0.02


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## Good_Karma

I have a ton of respect for people who have a dog who is non-reactive to other dogs (no matter how the other dog is behaving) and who have complete verbal control of their dog without the need for a leash. I have never actually met such a person/dog combination, but I suppose they do exist. Not in my neck of the woods, where the density (ahem  ) of bad dog owners far exceeds that of responsible dog owners.

I have a dog reactive dog. I keep him on leash when we are not on my property (which is big, we have lots of woods to race around in off leash) because I 100% cannot predict his behavior around dogs or people. In town I try to keep him at least 25 feet away from other dogs and 10 feet away from other people. Yes, sometimes my timing on redirecting his attention is off, and he may bark at a person or dog. Some days he seems more reactive than others, and some days he's fine and will not seem to notice his usual triggers at all. But I must maintain a very close eye on my environment at all times and be ready to react to any given situation (all whilst maintaining a calm and happy attitude) in a split second.

So Falkosmom, this is why someone like me might see lots of red flags going up when they see an off-leash dog. Every time my dog reacts to a trigger, it reinforces itself and makes it all the more likely he will react again in the future. I have learned to assume the very worst from other dog owners because I have no reason to expect any better. All the times I have assumed that the owner will contain their dog, I have been sadly mistaken.

Just a bit of insight into the mind of a reactive dog owner. Kudos to you for having such a great relationship with your dog!


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## sparra

I read threads like this and think how lucky we are to live on a farm, in the middle of nowhere where our dogs can just be dogs and we don't have to worry about all the dumb things other people do with their dogs.
I take my hat off to responsible people owning a dog in the towns and cities these days in a world where people just don't care.


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## Lilie

sparra said:


> I read threads like this and think how lucky we are to live on a farm, in the middle of nowhere where our dogs can just be dogs and we don't have to worry about all the dumb things other people do with their dogs.
> I take my hat off to responsible people owning a dog in the towns and cities these days in a world where people just don't care.


I was thinking the same thing. I am able to let my dogs run around on our own property. In fact, I can be pretty lazy about it. I amble my way through the pasture while my GSD runs and smells and marks etc. I watch him (because of his foot) when he starts to tire, I turn and head back to the house. He crashes in the house and I've barely popped a sweat. 

I never take my dogs off property with out a leash. I've never let them run off property with out a leash. I just wouldn't consider it.


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## GSD07

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I switch to my inner-guttergirl personality and I yell the following (using the F word) ... *Get Your BLEEPING dog on Leash Right the BLEEP NOW!!!*


 LOL When I wrote exactly the same sentence a few years back, my post got moderated and deleted. I guess, the reality hits even the moderators :wild:


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## Jessiewessie99

My dogs are friendly and trained, but since its the LAW I put my dogs on a leash. I don't think I am above the law and neither should anyone else.


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## Meekah's Bud

Lilie said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I am able to let my dogs run around on our own property. In fact, I can be pretty lazy about it. I amble my way through the pasture while my GSD runs and smells and marks etc. I watch him (because of his foot) when he starts to tire, I turn and head back to the house. He crashes in the house and I've barely popped a sweat.
> 
> I never take my dogs off property with out a leash. I've never let them run off property with out a leash. I just wouldn't consider it.


I have found that no matter how much I trust my dog, there is no way I am taking her off property without a leash. Not worth the risk to my dog. She has 30 acres here that she has the run of and is never more than 30 to 45 seconds away when I call her. When we go off property, though, it is on the leash. No matter how good she behaves or how much I trust her to listen to me, one mistake on her part could be the end of the line and I am not about to put her in that position. When I want to work her off leash, it is where there is no risk of other dogs. It is the least I can do for her protection. I just don't trust another dog to be 100% obedient, 100% of the time.


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## Wolfgeist

I totally agree with you, Lauri. I am no longer the respectful, honourable woman I normally am when people pull that sort of thing. That is when the Dark Passenger comes out!


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## DJEtzel

I'm not going to lie- I don't always follow leash laws with Frag. I use a ton of illegal opportunities to keep up on training, and I am prepared for the fines that may follow. When we go for walks on the 33 mile trail he isn't leashed and the same for walks around campus. Down the street/pet stores, etc. I always leash him for easier movement. When we encounter people or dogs on the trail or at campus I'll put the leash on and put him in a down stay to make the other people more comfortable... otherwise he's offleash in a loose "heel".


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## Falkosmom

Thank you Good Karma and the others for appreciating the relationship I have with my 100% non DA dog and his desire to be with me and ignore dogs and people behaving badly and to reward his good behavior with some supervised off leash activity.

The local leash laws here do not state that dogs must only be leashed, they do include wording that dogs "must be under control". A dog growling and lunging at somebody's unleashed dog, or people, is governed under the very same laws and is just as illegal. _It is a crime!_ So is harboring a vicious animal. Why do these people think they are above the law?

Can't help but notice how many times the legality of my actions walking my dog off leash continues to be mentioned, and how people like me consider myself above the law. Yet, nobody has pointed out that swearing or harrassing or threatening or causing physical harm (such as pepper spray) to another human or animal is illegal and a far more serious crime, at least where I come from. Is it different elsewhere? Why do those people think that they are above the law?


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## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Thank you Good Karma and the others for appreciating the relationship I have with my 100% non DA dog and his desire to be with me and ignore dogs and people behaving badly and to reward his good behavior with some supervised off leash activity.
> 
> The local leash laws here do not state that dogs must only be leashed, they do include wording that dogs "must be under control". A dog growling and lunging at somebody's unleashed dog, or people, is governed under the very same laws and is just as illegal. _It is a crime!_ So is harboring a vicious animal. Why do these people think they are above the law?
> 
> *Can't help but notice how many times the legality of my actions walking my dog off leash continues to be mentioned, and how people like me consider myself above the law. * Yet, nobody has pointed out that swearing or harrassing or threatening or causing physical harm (such as pepper spray) to another human or animal is illegal and a far more serious crime, at least where I come from. Is it different elsewhere? Why do those people think that they are above the law?


No one said that it is wrong to have 100% non DA dog and its wrong to be walking them off leash that has a desire to be with you. That is NOT a bad thing and no one has said you were irresponsible or wrong for that.My dogs have a desire to be with me, and aren't DA, but I still use a leash. Yes, they do have there off leash time when its allowed. 

Most of the time the leash laws state the can be off leash on YOUR property or in a designated off leash area. Here

Nothing is 100%. Having a leash is for my safety and my dogs safety.

Yes the idiots who let their uncontrolled dog off leash think they are above the law(I think thats what most of us were saying and because of those people who can't control their dogs we have leash laws).


Well just because you have a non DA dog who is well behaved does NOT exclude you from following the law. I also don't think using pepper spray is against the law. Of course I don't see the point of just lashing out at someone. If I am walking my dog and someone else is too and they are not using a leash and their dog comes running up to my dog, I will tell them to "please put a leash on your dog" as I don't like random dogs coming up to me and my dogs. If the person insists and wants their dog to play with my I will become irritated. If the dog is running at my dog and me wildly I will use pepper spray, or yell at the owner. Why? because I am in a frightened stage fearing me and my dogs safety. Also no one said that those people who yell obscenities at people are above the law. No one is above the law, IMO.


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## Draugr

I will admit that I do let Samson off leash time to time in areas where he is not supposed to be off-leash. He is not the least bit dog-aggressive. And his human-nervousness is always hovering at a very, very low percent in an outdoors unrestricted area.

But if anyone else comes in sight or I see him react in a way that tells me he knows another dog is nearby, he is recalled and put right back on-leash.

I am not worried about him meeting another dog, he loves other dogs. But it is discourteous to other people to allow that to happen without prior permission. I don't know what the other dog is like (it is irresponsible for me to allow Samson to approach him/her) and they don't know what my dog is like (it is disrespectful for me to allow him to come near). Considering CCP's are handed out like candy many states including my own, I'm also risking his life. Or his health with non-lethal weapons.


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## Kittilicious

Has anyone thought that a "leash law" might actually just mean that you must have control of your dog at all times and not necessarily have a hold of them by a leash? We have a leash law in my city, but I'm not above the law when walking my dog off leash - because I have control over her. The puppy, yes, is on a leash, because he is not trained to walk any other way right now. We have walked right past the police station, right past the police car and even stopped and talked to the cop. He flat out said he's seen us walk her and we have control over her... he even commented on how he is impressed how she stops at intersections with no commands and sits. He said as long as we carry a leash with us, we are fine. He said all the leash law is is so that dogs are not running on their own, which most dogs would do is they weren't on a leash, but if all dogs walked like mine did nobody would have to have leashes at all. 
You can say "what if" until you are blue in the face on all of the scenarios where a trained, unleashed dog will bolt off, but if the dog is trained they will not do that. I am very proud that I have a dog that can accomplish this and I hold my head high when we get the compliments about her behaving as she does. Although, I have yet to have someone come up to me screaming & swearing to get my dog on a leash - because they don't realize she's not on one until we pass by them, if they are paying attention, that is. 
She is close enough to me that if a dog does run up, I can grab her & leash her. This has happened. Thankfully its always a friendly dog. But leash or not, it is not going to protect her from a dog coming at her out for a fight.


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## Good_Karma

I honestly do not know the legality of defending my dog from an attacking dog with pepper spray. The sale of pepper spray is legal here, and I bought mine from a local sporting goods store. The last time I used pepper spray in town, I was so furious at being attacked again that I marched Niko right into the office where you pay for your dog license. I explained what happened to the town clerk and she helped me get in touch with the dog control officer and she took my report, which included my description of using the pepper spray. No one ever mentioned whether or not my action was legal or illegal, but I would think that if I can buy the spray in my area, I have the right to use it to defend myself and my property. But I really do not know for sure if what I did was legal. The dog control officer did say "Good for you!" when I told her that I pepper sprayed that dog. I doubt she would have said that if it were illegal to do so.


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## Falkosmom

I have encountered animal control while walking my dog off leash in the park. I was just told to next time bring a leash.


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## GSDolch

Kittilicious said:


> *Has anyone thought that a "leash law" might actually just mean that you must have control of your dog at all times and not necessarily have a hold of them by a leash? *We have a leash law in my city, but I'm not above the law when walking my dog off leash - because I have control over her. The puppy, yes, is on a leash, because he is not trained to walk any other way right now. We have walked right past the police station, right past the police car and even stopped and talked to the cop. He flat out said he's seen us walk her and we have control over her... he even commented on how he is impressed how she stops at intersections with no commands and sits. He said as long as we carry a leash with us, we are fine. He said all the leash law is is so that dogs are not running on their own, which most dogs would do is they weren't on a leash, but if all dogs walked like mine did nobody would have to have leashes at all.
> You can say "what if" until you are blue in the face on all of the scenarios where a trained, unleashed dog will bolt off, but if the dog is trained they will not do that. I am very proud that I have a dog that can accomplish this and I hold my head high when we get the compliments about her behaving as she does. Although, I have yet to have someone come up to me screaming & swearing to get my dog on a leash - because they don't realize she's not on one until we pass by them, if they are paying attention, that is.
> She is close enough to me that if a dog does run up, I can grab her & leash her. This has happened. Thankfully its always a friendly dog. But leash or not, it is not going to protect her from a dog coming at her out for a fight.



No, because here it will state if it means "under verbal control" along with "leash law". I don't know of any place that says "leash law" without "verbal control" and still means its OK to not be on a leash. But thats just with the places I have been. lol 

If someone has control over their dog, I have no problem with them being off leash so long as they are put on a leash (if it is the law in that place) when other people start coming around. *Or* their dog stays with them. That I could let go of.

But the problem isn't people who have control over their dogs one way or another (leash, verbal). So I really see it as a non issue. Its those who DON'T or WON'T have control over their dog that is the issue.


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## GSD07

Falkosmom said:


> I have encountered animal control while walking my dog off leash in the park. I was just told to next time bring a leash.


 I bet if they wrote you a ticket for $100 and warned that the second offence would cost you $300, you would have your dog on leash at that particular park at all times. Am I wrong?


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## Falkosmom

The fine is $300.00 and/or 30 days in jail. The common thought on this for park users is that it is worth the fine to be able to take their city dogs out and let them be dogs and have fun.

This park is over 550 acres of woods, hills, creeks, and valleys. It is filled with dozens and dozens of off leash dogs and their owners. It is rare to encounter a dog on leash, and it is usually not due to the dog having behavioral issues. 

One such woman that was verbally abusive with others had her poor shepherd on a lead outside of one of the fenced in dog park areas and was exploding at any body approaching with an off lead dog, which was all of them. Now mind you, the fence around the dog park was a 2.5' split rail fence that most dogs jumped to let themselves in or out of. And let's not forget this particular dog park was only fenced on three sides. Anyhow, her explanation for her agitation was that her dog was afraid of other dogs because he had hip dysplasia.


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## Falkosmom

No, you would be wrong. I would not allow that fine/penalty to deter me from allowing my well behaved dog to enjoy his well deserved freedom.


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## Lilie

I have to admit, that if I have my dog in an area where the law requires the use of a leash, and I am approached by a dog that is off leash....I'm not going to be very nice...to the dog or the owner. 

It just takes one bad experiance to turn my non dog reactive dog into a reactive dog. That dog doesn't have to come up to my dog in an aggressive manner to create a reaction from my dog. I pity the person who causes this. 

I do not take my dog to places where there are no leash requirements.


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## WendyDsMom

Okay, this thread is about OTHER people's dogs coming towards our dogs that WE know have an issue.

Go for it, start nicely, then yell and F-bomb away, then spray the offensive dog with pepper spray - and if the owner sparks up - spray the owner too - they threatened you....

I protect my dog. I protect my kids, I protect my car, house, cat..... What is mine is mine.

Kayla and Trigger took down a couple of unleashed standard poodles that came at us - around a car, and across the street at full charge. I felt threatened - My dogs responded.

I called the cops and animal control. I paid NO VET BILLS and they got tickets and fines for not controlling those poodles. K and T were still on a leash, but I had to let go in order to let them do what they had to do. The police told those dog owners that they are completely responsible and at fault for their dogs being injured. 

I hate walking by that house - those dogs are still there and I hear them barking while we walk by. I have a puppy now - and an LL Bean walking stick just in case. I will make sure my puppy does not get traumatized by some other persons lack of common sense. 

It's all about common sense.


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## Lucy Dog

Kittilicious said:


> Has anyone thought that a "leash law" might actually just mean that you must have control of your dog at all times and not necessarily have a hold of them by a leash?


I've seen cops hand out tickets to people walking their dogs off leash before in parks like the one discussed. These were not out of control dogs, but were just not leashed and they got tickets for it. It's not a common sense law.


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## Falkosmom

You are right Lucy Dog. 

When there are occurences at the park concerning _out of control_ off leash dogs, animal control does come in and ticket any dog without a leash.


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## Falkosmom

WendyDsMom,

I think the confusion comes from what somebody else's off leash dog approaching really means. I have approached others with my off leash dog walking in their direction on the paths and trails. That does not mean that we were specifically approaching then as we were actually walking down a trail/path that was more than plenty wide enough for safe separation of the dogs. 

With all the dogs I encounter in the particular park I go to, being that these dogs are mostly all unleashed, they just don't seem to go dashing up to other dogs. If anything, these dogs tend to stop and approach another dog with caution. It is almost like they have a specific meet and greet ritual which usually commences with stopping in their tracks, and approaching in baby steps, then stopping again, and repeating the sequence until they are either recalled or meet the other dog.

This is why I am confused. Even though my dog and I are around so many loose dogs, I really don't recall many dogs at all rushing up to us. I can't help but wonder what OP really means.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> You are right Lucy Dog.
> 
> When there are occurences at the park concerning _out of control_ off leash dogs, animal control does come in and ticket any dog without a leash.


I was talking about dogs that were in complete control, but didn't have a leash getting ticketed.


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## Falkosmom

Yes, Lucy Dog, when there are complaints, they come in and ticket any and every dog that is not on a leash, even if they are under control.

The people just pay their fines and continue to feel grateful that they have such a great place to run their dogs.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> Yes, Lucy Dog, when there are complaints, they come in and ticket any and every dog that is not on a leash, even if they are under control.
> 
> *The people just pay their fines and continue to feel grateful that they have such a great place to run their dogs.*


:headbang:

Lauri... why did you have to start this thread!?!? You're killing me here...


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## Meekah's Bud

Maybe I am missing something in this conversation. What is it about a leash law that is so hard to understand? As I see it, if there is a leash law, then the dog is to be leashed, period. This cannot be one of those things where a person can say, "my dog is off leash but under full control." If we are to go by that reasoning I should be able to drive my car without wearing a seatbelt because "I have my car under control." Laws are objective in a case like this not subjective and open to each persons interpretation. Personally, I would not consider, for a moment walking Meekah off leash. Do I trust her? Implicitly!! It's others I don't trust and I am not about to put her at risk by allowing her off leash out in public. Any number of scenarios could arise with catastrophic consequences for an off leash dog, no matter how well behaved. Can anyone say that with absolute, 100% certainty that their dog would *never* bite? NO!! What I can say is that as long as I have my dog leashed, I am obeying the law, and if someone else, or another dog off leash comes at her and she is on leash, she is in the right. First and foremost is my dogs safety when in public. I doubt that I could live with myself if, allowing her to run off leash, something happened and I had to have her put down. Sorry, not worth the risk.


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## DJEtzel

Meekah's Bud said:


> Maybe I am missing something in this conversation. What is it about a leash law that is so hard to understand? As I see it, if there is a leash law, then the dog is to be leashed, period. This cannot be one of those things where a person can say, "my dog is off leash but under full control." If we are to go by that reasoning I should be able to drive my car without wearing a seatbelt because "I have my car under control." Laws are objective in a case like this not subjective and open to each persons interpretation. Personally, I would not consider, for a moment walking Meekah off leash. Do I trust her? Implicitly!! It's others I don't trust and I am not about to put her at risk by allowing her off leash out in public. Any number of scenarios could arise with catastrophic consequences for an off leash dog, no matter how well behaved. Can anyone say that with absolute, 100% certainty that their dog would *never* bite? NO!! What I can say is that as long as I have my dog leashed, I am obeying the law, and if someone else, or another dog off leash comes at her and she is on leash, she is in the right. First and foremost is my dogs safety when in public. I doubt that I could live with myself if, allowing her to run off leash, something happened and I had to have her put down. Sorry, not worth the risk.


I don't think it's that anything about the law is mis-understood, I think it's that some people just don't care and are willing to take the risk. 

Like I said that I did- I take the risk. My dog is just as likely to bite someone on leash than off (actually, that's a lie- I think if he ever bit someone it'd be ON leash) and I am going to be just as responsible if he does it. I'll just get a fine on top of it for him being off leash, which as I said, I'm prepared to take. I'm not going to be able to control any situation any better with him on a leash. Stuff happens, accidents happen, people and dogs get hurt, and if having him off leash changed those chances for me, I wouldn't do it. But I'm not going to keep him inside and never walk him because something could.

And I also want to point out that you said she is in the right with a leash on. WRONG. If another dog runs up, corners her on a leash and she bites him, YOU'RE responsible still, and it's all HER fault. The other owner may get a fine for not obeying the leash law, but you're the one with the dog that bit, even though it was leashed.


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## Lucy Dog

Meekah's Bud said:


> Maybe I am missing something in this conversation. What is it about a leash law that is so hard to understand? As I see it, if there is a leash law, then the dog is to be leashed, period. This cannot be one of those things where a person can say, "my dog is off leash but under full control." If we are to go by that reasoning I should be able to drive my car without wearing a seatbelt because "I have my car under control." Laws are objective in a case like this not subjective and open to each persons interpretation. Personally, I would not consider, for a moment walking Meekah off leash. Do I trust her? Implicitly!! It's others I don't trust and I am not about to put her at risk by allowing her off leash out in public. Any number of scenarios could arise with catastrophic consequences for an off leash dog, no matter how well behaved. Can anyone say that with absolute, 100% certainty that their dog would *never* bite? NO!! What I can say is that as long as I have my dog leashed, I am obeying the law, and if someone else, or another dog off leash comes at her and she is on leash, she is in the right. First and foremost is my dogs safety when in public. I doubt that I could live with myself if, allowing her to run off leash, something happened and I had to have her put down. Sorry, not worth the risk.


Best 12th post ever.

Nice comparison with the seat belts and cars too.


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## Meekah's Bud

DJEtzel said "And I also want to point out that you said she is in the right with a leash on. WRONG. If another dog runs up, corners her on a leash and she bites him, YOU'RE responsible still, and it's all HER fault. The other owner may get a fine for not obeying the leash law, but you're the one with the dog that bit, even though it was leashed."

Ok, my statement requires clarification. If my dog is leashed she is on the right side of the law. If she is leashed and attacked by an off leash dog, do not try, for one second to tell me that my dog is in the wrong. Plain and simply a leash law is a leash law and anyone, I repeat anyone, who chooses to ignore that law is wrong and no amount of self justification will make it right. If you don't agree with the leash law, petition to have it changed. If it can't be changed then obey the law. That is the way society works. We are not free to pick and chose what laws we like or don't like. End of story. I don't understand how this is unclear, and to say, "so what, I'll just pay the fine". Next thing you will see will be a new law that says, people guilty of multiple infractions of leash laws will have their dogs confiscated. It is this type of behavior that forces the introduction of more and more laws that so many people hate!.


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## Falkosmom

It is illegal to have a dog off leash and everybody here seems to understand that part, yet my confusion comes from some people not understanding that somebody breaking the law by cursing, harrassing, being disorderly and/or threatening another person or their dog is illegal as well. 

I have had to get the law involved when a new neighbor continued to "bait" my dog and scream and holler at him and threaten his life. The dog is kept safely contained in his own fenced in yard and never bothered her till she started circling my yard ( I live on a corner) and kept charging the fence at him, when he finally had enough of her agitation, he began to bark and charge the fence. I reported her to the authoritys and they paid her a visit and let her know that what she is doing is illegal and that charges would be brought against her if she continued to break the law. 

OP is publicly stating how she breaks the law and does not care, but few people on here seem to get it. Illegal is illegal, not just for some, such as in the car seatbelt situation, or the dog leash law. The law is for all, not the chosen few.


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## GSD07

DJEtzel said:


> And I also want to point out that you said she is in the right with a leash on. WRONG. If another dog runs up, corners her on a leash and she bites him, YOU'RE responsible still, and it's all HER fault. The other owner may get a fine for not obeying the leash law, but you're the one with the dog that bit, even though it was leashed.


And by pointing this out you provide an excellent argument to support the post #1. People who have their dogs on leash are forced to be proactive and responsible for the situation that involves the dogs that are off leash. For you, for example, caring for your dog includes letting him "dancing and prancing" off leash, for me caring includes protecting my dog from your off leash dog. We both accept the consequences of our decision and, hopefully, don't take it personal.


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## DJEtzel

GSD07 said:


> And by pointing this out you provide an excellent argument to support the post #1. People who have their dogs on leash are forced to be proactive and responsible for the situation that involves the dogs that are off leash. For you, for example, caring for your dog includes letting him "dancing and prancing" off leash, for me caring includes protecting my dog from your off leash dog. We both accept the consequences of our decision and, hopefully, don't take it personal.


Except I would never let a dog of mine dance and prance around where there were other dogs. If it's public he's in a loose heel at my side. If he decided to leave that spot for anything without me asking, he'd have **** to pay. So do not lump me into that category.


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## Meekah's Bud

DJEtzel said:


> Except I would never let a dog of mine dance and prance around where there were other dogs. If it's public he's in a loose heel at my side. If he decided to leave that spot for anything without me asking, he'd have **** to pay. So do not lump me into that category.


By that very statement, you imply that under no circumstances would your dog ever break from you or *ever* disobey. Let's be honest, here, never is a very long time and there is always a worst case scenario that could never be planned for. Irregardless, I think that the whole point seems to lost, here, and that is, the law is the law. I fully agree, cursing, threatening etc is illegal and should be dealt with but that is no excuse to say, "my dog would never disobey me so I don't have to obey the law." One person breaking the law doe not justify another person doing it. If everyone held that theory for the laws of their choice, there would be total anarchy. Any, and all laws, must be obeyed by everyone and anyone who knowingly decides to ignore the law is committing a crime. I doubt that is too hard to understand. What, really, is so hard to understand? How well a dog is trained has *nothing* to do with anything. Let me ask you this. Mario Andretti is a darn good driver, having raced most of his life. Does that mean he can ignore the speed limit because he is a better driver than you. The answer is no, plain and simple. If everyone simply obeyed the law, there would be far fewer problems. Is it that hard to comprehend?


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## GSDolch

Falkosmom said:


> OP is publicly stating how she breaks the law and does not care, but few people on here seem to get it. Illegal is illegal, not just for some, such as in the car seatbelt situation, or the dog leash law. The law is for all, not the chosen few.




wait..I am confused. How is the OP stating she breaks the law and does not care?

Like with the leash law, it is not EVERYWHERE. Some counties, especially very back woods, have no leash laws. Same thing when it comes to swearing and/or threatening to smack a dog with a stick if the owner does not get it contained. This is going to depend on even more laws in regards to safety and defense. Here, if a dog is chasing livestock, the farmer can shoot it. If a dog comes at me teeth showing, growling and looks like its about to take myself or my dog (which is considered property) I am allowed to do WHATEVER MEANS necessary to protect myself and my dog. This could include using some choice words as a warning (If possible) to, saying "I'll make sure that dog is killed if it attacks me!", etc etc.

So no, its not really as simple as "its for everyone!" because its going to vary depending on where someone lives.

If I am walking my dog in an area that has the leash law, and someone has a dog that is not on a leash and it attacks mine or even comes up to mine..no, actually I do NOT have any responsibility in the situation because I was in the confines of the law.

The "law" is going to vary on where on lives.


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## APBTLove

I don't know why you wouldn't use a leash if your dog. Even if he stays in a heel the whole time - well heck, why not leash if he'll be by your side anyway?... I mean.. It could mean your dog's life. The most obedient dog in the world is still a living, breathing, thinking creature who WILL do what he or she wants once in a while, be it ignoring you the first time you say "drop it!" when she has a tasty steak in her mouth, or taking off that ONE time after a running toddler or pomeranian who looks like a squirrel.

Not worth it, ever, in my opinion.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

GSDolch said:


> wait..I am confused. How is the OP stating she breaks the law and does not care?
> 
> Like with the leash law, it is not EVERYWHERE. Some counties, especially very back woods, have no leash laws. Same thing when it comes to swearing and/or threatening to smack a dog with a stick if the owner does not get it contained. This is going to depend on even more laws in regards to safety and defense. Here, if a dog is chasing livestock, the farmer can shoot it. If a dog comes at me teeth showing, growling and looks like its about to take myself or my dog (which is considered property) I am allowed to do WHATEVER MEANS necessary to protect myself and my dog. This could include using some choice words as a warning (If possible) to, saying "I'll make sure that dog is killed if it attacks me!", etc etc.
> 
> So no, its not really as simple as "its for everyone!" because its going to vary depending on where someone lives.
> 
> If I am walking my dog in an area that has the leash law, and someone has a dog that is not on a leash and it attacks mine or even comes up to mine..no, actually I do NOT have any responsibility in the situation because I was in the confines of the law.
> 
> The "law" is going to vary on where on lives.


I believe what this poster was referring to (and correct me if I'm wrong) was the fact that the OP proudly admits to screaming at/swearing at others which is illegal. It can be cause for harassment charges, assault charges, and others depending on what is said. I think the point is people are picking and choosing which laws are acceptable to break and which aren't, when in reality laws are laws.


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## GSDolch

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I believe what this poster was referring to (and correct me if I'm wrong) was the fact that the OP proudly admits to screaming at/swearing at others which is illegal. It can be cause for harassment charges, assault charges, and others depending on what is said. I think the point is people are picking and choosing which laws are acceptable to break and which aren't, when in reality laws are laws.



Yes, I understand that, however, it is *not* the law everywhere. Which is my point. It may not be against the law for her to say those things in her town/city/whatever, where as it might be, say the town/city/whatever over.

Same for the leash law, not every place has a leash law.

Its not universal laws we are talking about, so to say people are picking and choosing..yes some might be, but some might still be within the law in their area. Which is why people should look this stuff up if there are any questions.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

GSDolch said:


> Yes, I understand that, however, it is *not* the law everywhere. Which is my point. It may not be against the law for her to say those things in her town/city/whatever, where as it might be, say the town/city/whatever over.
> 
> Same for the leash law, not every place has a leash law.
> 
> Its not universal laws we are talking about, so to say people are picking and choosing..yes some might be, but some might still be within the law in their area. Which is why people should look this stuff up if there are any questions.


I'm pretty sure, from what I've learned in my law classes, harassment and assault laws are at least fairly similar pretty much everywhere (at least in the US. No idea on other places). As far as leash laws go, you're right that not all places have them, but there are a large portion of places that do. I'm actually not sure if my home town has one now that I think of it. I think they do but I couldn't say for 100% sure.

And the point is, the OP takes issue with others letting their dogs run off leash and takes severe issue with that, but doesn't take into consideration that she is (most likely) breaking the law herself.


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## GSDolch

Like I said, its all just depends. Here if there is a loose dog running around, especially if it is aggressive, then all the above (that the OP mentioned) isn't going to be against the law. Its only considered harassment I believe under certain circumstances. (someone who is drunk going around cussing everyone out for no good reason)

It would be considered a courtesy to tell someone to get their f'ing dog before its gets shot for chasing the cows (or, whatever). They don't have to, the could just shoot shovel and shut up. (Or if the dog is running up to me without an owner, saying to get their f'ing dog before it gets maced or wacked over the head)


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## GSD07

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> ... to screaming at/swearing at others which is illegal...


 This is questionable and heavily depends on the state laws. The OP was not threatening the loose dog's owners with violence so it won't qualify as an assault or harassment. Maybe, disorderly conduct in some states but it will surely be appealed in court. What about the first amendment?


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## Lucy Dog

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I'm pretty sure, from what I've learned in my law classes, harassment and assault laws are at least fairly similar pretty much everywhere (at least in the US. No idea on other places). As far as leash laws go, you're right that not all places have them, but there are a large portion of places that do. I'm actually not sure if my home town has one now that I think of it. I think they do but I couldn't say for 100% sure.
> 
> And the point is, the OP takes issue with others letting their dogs run off leash and takes severe issue with that, but doesn't take into consideration that she is (most likely) breaking the law herself.


Not claiming to be a lawyer here, so i figure I'll ask since I don't know for sure either way, but... saying something like, "Get that "f-wording" dog on a leash" would be considered assault or harassment?


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## Falkosmom

I think people need to read OP's first post again. OP states that OP launches her onslaught at the "approach" of a dog. If OP's yelling is not successful to force the other people to submit to OP's commands, OP loses self control and starts cussing like a sailor trying to get her demands met, because OP openly admits that it is _her_ dog that has the dangerous propensities. ( I just don't get how attacking other people brings her dog under control, sorry)

OP states that she does this to protect her DA dog from harming another dog and possibly causing her dog's demise, which is admirable and very understandable. We are all in that same boat, but there are other alternatives. Perhaps a better solution would be to muzzle OP's dog since it is OP's dog that has the problem, or perhaps keep him away from parks and places where people bring their dogs, there are other places she could take a leashed dog where she would unlikely encounter a dog. This way he would not be able to harm Fifi or Bluto should they approach and OP would not be liable for damages and her dog would be safe. This however, would be contingent on OP assuming responsibility for her DA dog. In other words, OP needs to stop trying to control the world and just work on controlling her own little corner of it.

I think you would find it very difficult to find any area in this country that would consider such human aggressive behavior accepable, let alone legal. I understand that country laws can vary greatly from city laws for obvious reasons, but I don't think it would be okay no matter where one lives for a child to observe and hear such frightening behavior from an adult.

And when somebody is yelling and swearing at me to put my dog on a leash, it a human on human transgression, you have crossed the threshhold from human to animal.

I too yell at dogs approaching _with hair raised and growling and other menacing behaviors_, but I do not yell at the owners, and I do not swear. I protect my dog too.


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## GSD07

Falkosmom said:


> ... I don't think it would be okay no matter where one lives for a child to observe ...


 Finally, thank you for bringing it up!


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

GSD07 said:


> This is questionable and heavily depends on the state laws. The OP was not threatening the loose dog's owners with violence so it won't qualify as an assault or harassment. Maybe, disorderly conduct in some states but it will surely be appealed in court. What about the first amendment?


With harassment you don't have to threaten with violence. With assault you just have to prove that you had reasonable fear of harm; you never even have to get touched. So I'm saying depending on what she's doing, ie how aggressive she truly is then yes it very well could be assault. I'm not saying for 100% that what she's doing would constitute assault, more info would be needed, but it could very easily be harassment. I'm not saying what she's doing isn't perhaps logically/morally justified (meaning I understand the need to do whatever is necessary to protect your dog from what you perceive to be a potential threat.) All I'm saying is the law may not be on your side.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

GSDolch said:


> Like I said, its all just depends. Here if there is a loose dog running around, especially if it is aggressive, then all the above (that the OP mentioned) isn't going to be against the law. Its only considered harassment I believe under certain circumstances. (someone who is drunk going around cussing everyone out for no good reason)
> 
> It would be considered a courtesy to tell someone to get their f'ing dog before its gets shot for chasing the cows (or, whatever). They don't have to, the could just shoot shovel and shut up. (Or if the dog is running up to me without an owner, saying to get their f'ing dog before it gets maced or wacked over the head)


IF the dog is showing aggression as it approaches and you're shouting those things, you're right it probably wouldn't get looked at as harassment. However, if it's just a dog walking toward you, owners in sight, no apparent signs of aggression I don't think that will necessarily be the case. And no, harassment isn't under specific circumstances such as being drunk. If I walk up to you and I'm being belligerent, it could very well be taken as harassment/assault. Now that being said, you would have to press charges against me, and most people probably wouldn't. However more and more that's not the way to bet. People are getting pretty sue happy. 20 years ago that probably would have technically been harassment/assault, but no one would have bought it. They might have thought you were a bit nuts or hyper sensitive but that probably would have been the end of that. It would be nice to go back to those times because, while I don't agree with swearing at strangers just because their dog is off leash, I would like to go back to a time when you couldn't sue (and win) every time something didn't go your way or someone hurt your feelings. JMO.


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## GSDolch

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> IF the dog is showing aggression as it approaches and you're shouting those things, you're right it probably wouldn't get looked at as harassment. However, if it's just a dog walking toward you, owners in sight, no apparent signs of aggression I don't think that will necessarily be the case. And no, harassment isn't under specific circumstances such as being drunk. If I walk up to you and I'm being belligerent, it could very well be taken as harassment/assault. Now that being said, you would have to press charges against me, and most people probably wouldn't. However more and more that's not the way to bet. People are getting pretty sue happy. 20 years ago that probably would have technically been harassment/assault, but no one would have bought it. They might have thought you were a bit nuts or hyper sensitive but that probably would have been the end of that. It would be nice to go back to those times because, while I don't agree with swearing at strangers just because their dog is off leash, I would like to go back to a time when you couldn't sue (and win) every time something didn't go your way or someone hurt your feelings. JMO.


I was just using being drunk as an example.

I have looked everywhere and the only thing I have found, is for Memphis TN that has a profanity law. But it doesn't seem to fall under harassment laws.

I actually haven't found a law in my state that talks specifically about profanity. The laws could or could not include profanity, but so far there is nothing state wide that says anything about just cursing. So, no, its not against the law for me to tell someone to "please get you f'ing dog". Not where I live anyways. If I take it beyond that, and start threatening them with illegal actions, then it becomes an issue. It wouldn't matter if I am cursing or not.

I think the issue is people are assuming that all cursing is done by yelling, screaming and in a 'threatening' way. "yelling" may have to be done if the person is far away and wouldn't be able to hear you otherwise. Ton, body language and over all demeanor play parts also.

I don't doubt that there are alot of people who are sue happy, everyone looking for a quick buck. :/



Found the website I was looking for.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/



> *29-9-107. **Profanity** in court of record. *
> 
> Any person who profanely swears or curses in the presence of any court of record commits a Class C misdemeanor.


I haven't found anything on a smaller level other than in Memphis.


----------



## Redgrappler

catbaloodryer said:


> I can see why your dog is dog aggressive, having broken 2 GS and a pitbull of this trait I have to say
> 
> Stop F yelling and maybe your dog will not be so aggressive. You expect your dog to be aggressive and he/she's just pleasing you.
> 
> Dogs react to the people and when they feel the tension they go for it, cuz some breed just like to rumble.
> 
> Know I'm gonna get flamed but like I said have broken 3 dogs of this trait


Thank you. Good training always works best...even it has to be with the owner.


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## Redgrappler

Respectully, I think the OP's post does shed some light on one of the most sensitive situations one can run in to while walking a dog. I pride myself on controlling my dogs... I have had the priviledge of working with GSDs and Rotties. I am a firm believer that they carry an extension of your personality. If you are reactive and aggressive, then your dogs will certainly become the same. If their level of training sucks then you are asking for a world of trouble.

I am not saying I am a saint, but to minimize the chances of my dogs getting into an altercation I would control what I can control...that is my dog, his training, and my reaction. I don't know where the OP lives, but in some neighborhoods, if you throw out the F-word with aggression and assertion, you are liable to get hurt. You don't know who you are talking to. Not all people are cordial and as understanding as you would like them to be.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

GSDolch said:


> I was just using being drunk as an example.
> 
> I have looked everywhere and the only thing I have found, is for Memphis TN that has a profanity law. But it doesn't seem to fall under harassment laws.
> 
> I actually haven't found a law in my state that talks specifically about profanity. The laws could or could not include profanity, but so far there is nothing state wide that says anything about just cursing. So, no, its not against the law for me to tell someone to "please get you f'ing dog". Not where I live anyways. If I take it beyond that, and start threatening them with illegal actions, then it becomes an issue. It wouldn't matter if I am cursing or not.
> 
> I think the issue is people are assuming that all cursing is done by yelling, screaming and in a 'threatening' way. "yelling" may have to be done if the person is far away and wouldn't be able to hear you otherwise. Ton, body language and over all demeanor play parts also.
> 
> I don't doubt that there are alot of people who are sue happy, everyone looking for a quick buck. :/
> 
> 
> 
> Found the website I was looking for.
> 
> LexisNexis® Custom Solution: Tennessee Code Research Tool
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't found anything on a smaller level other than in Memphis.


I'm not talking about the swearing itself. I doubt swearing itself is illegal except in certain circumstances (like you said about being in court). I'm talking about the aggressive behavior that accompanies the swearing. Almost no one when upset calmly says "get your bleeping dog." That doesn't happen. I've got to say if someone was acting that aggressively toward me, especially if it was a man, and I felt uncomfortable I might call the police; and one of the thinks I would say would be, the were yelling, swearing, and just overall being belligerent and I felt unsafe. Whether or not I pressed charges would obviously depend on how heated it got. I'm not really into suing people, so I probably wouldn't unless it got violent. You're right, sometimes yelling is appropriate, but I wouldn't just come out and blanket statement condone it like the OP seems to be.


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## Jack's Dad

.


Redgrappler said:


> I don't know where the OP lives, but in some neighborhoods, if you throw out the F-word with aggression and assertion, you are liable to get hurt. You don't know who you are talking to. Not all people are cordial and as understanding as you would like them to be.


This was my first thought when I read the OP.
I was born and raiseed in the L.A. area and there are some places where that approach (yelling ,screaming, thre f-word) will get you hurt. With the kind of people I'm talking about don't think your bad ass GS will save you either. The dog will wind up hurt or worse also.
I personally don't think it is the best approach.


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## DJEtzel

APBTLove said:


> I don't know why you wouldn't use a leash if your dog. Even if he stays in a heel the whole time - well heck, why not leash if he'll be by your side anyway?... I mean.. It could mean your dog's life. The most obedient dog in the world is still a living, breathing, thinking creature who WILL do what he or she wants once in a while, be it ignoring you the first time you say "drop it!" when she has a tasty steak in her mouth, or taking off that ONE time after a running toddler or pomeranian who looks like a squirrel.
> 
> Not worth it, ever, in my opinion.


Usually my hands need to be free for other things, which is why I don't leash anyway. There's no need for it, so it's more convenient not to. The whole point of having dogs off leash is having them trained well enough and a trust. I have NO reason to think that Frag would ever take off after anything or refuse to come back when I called him... He's never just ignored a "No" or "here" so that's not something I'm worried about at all. If I couldn't trust the dog in all of this, they wouldn't be off leash where they should be or shouldn't be leashed. Just because it is a leash-law area doesn't make it any more risky. There are inherant risks in doing anything with a dog. I'm not going to change my lifestyle or be overly cautious because of this. Stuff can happen anywhere.


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## Meekah's Bud

DJEtzel said:


> Usually my hands need to be free for other things, which is why I don't leash anyway. There's no need for it, so it's more convenient not to. The whole point of having dogs off leash is having them trained well enough and a trust. I have NO reason to think that Frag would ever take off after anything or refuse to come back when I called him... He's never just ignored a "No" or "here" so that's not something I'm worried about at all. If I couldn't trust the dog in all of this, they wouldn't be off leash where they should be or shouldn't be leashed. Just because it is a leash-law area doesn't make it any more risky. There are inherant risks in doing anything with a dog. I'm not going to change my lifestyle or be overly cautious because of this. Stuff can happen anywhere.


Ok, in an attempt to possibly simplify this and, in the process, gain a better understanding, I have a question. What is the purpose of laws if people arbitrarily decide to ignore them? There are laws against drunk driving and people who ignore that law, and are caught, are convicted of a criminal offense. What is it, that gives you, me, or anyone else the right to pick and chose the laws we decide to follow? Openly admitting that you disregard the law, and will continue to do so shows an utter contempt of the law and the public, in general. Laws are made, and enforced, for the good of everyone involved. Neither you nor I have the right to decide, we don't agree with that law and so will disregard. To do so, is utterly contemptuous and extremely irresponsible. There are lots of laws that I think are ridiculous and that I disagree with, but I will not intentionally disregard or violate that law just because I don't like them. It is not my right!


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## DJEtzel

Meekah's Bud said:


> Ok, in an attempt to possibly simplify this and, in the process, gain a better understanding, I have a question. What is the purpose of laws if people arbitrarily decide to ignore them? There are laws against drunk driving and people who ignore that law, and are caught, are convicted of a criminal offense. What is it, that gives you, me, or anyone else the right to pick and chose the laws we decide to follow? Openly admitting that you disregard the law, and will continue to do so shows an utter contempt of the law and the public, in general. Laws are made, and enforced, for the good of everyone involved. Neither you nor I have the right to decide, we don't agree with that law and so will disregard. To do so, is utterly contemptuous and extremely irresponsible. There are lots of laws that I think are ridiculous and that I disagree with, but I will not intentionally disregard or violate that law just because I don't like them. It is not my right!


Then I'm irresponsible. I have free will and I choose what I want to do in life. People break laws all of the time, I am not losing sleep over someone rolling a stop sign, littering, or letting their dogs off leash UNLESS it interferes with me. And I follow the same thing. If I want to speed to work I will, but I won't break a law and interfere with someone else's life. I won't let my dog trample the neighbors flowers or poop in their lawn, and I won't cut people off in traffic. And because I am breaking laws on a daily basis, I am fully prepared to be responsible for the repercussions. Whether that be a traffic ticket, fine, or community service. Pointing out that people are breaking the law is not going to stop them from breaking it.


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## Caledon

I don't get it.

I've read here over and over again that it is up to the owner to protect their dog. If your dog is attacked by an off leash dog it is your fault because you didn't do this or do that, or walked this way not that way etc.

Others have said that they would pepper spay a dog, shoot a dog, hit a dog with a stick, kick a dog that came near theirs to protect it. This dog is not walking nicely by the owners side but coming straight for her dog ahead of the owner. The OP tells the person, who is breaking the law, to get their dog on a leash, person ignors, OP requests becomes a command with colourful language and a louder tone. She is being jumped on for swearing. 

Others say she is trying to control the world around her. She should not have to control the world around he, but she is all to protect her dog. She should have the right to walk her dog on leash and expect others to do the same.

What is so hard about using a leash? Seeing a well behaved on leash dog makes some people nervous. Seeing a well behaved off leash dogs would send some over the edge with fear. People should have more respect for others and just obey the law then law obeying owners would not have to get upset and inform you to leash your dog.


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## Meekah's Bud

DJEtzel said:


> Then I'm irresponsible. I have free will and I choose what I want to do in life. People break laws all of the time, I am not losing sleep over someone rolling a stop sign, littering, or letting their dogs off leash UNLESS it interferes with me. And I follow the same thing. If I want to speed to work I will, but I won't break a law and interfere with someone else's life. I won't let my dog trample the neighbors flowers or poop in their lawn, and I won't cut people off in traffic. And because I am breaking laws on a daily basis, I am fully prepared to be responsible for the repercussions. Whether that be a traffic ticket, fine, or community service. Pointing out that people are breaking the law is not going to stop them from breaking it.


Well, that, I guess, is the advantage of living in a free society. You can chose to do what you want with no concern for others. I was raised to respect the law and other people. This very statement. "or letting their dogs off leash UNLESS it interferes with me." speaks volumes. It says that as long as YOU are happy, nothing else matters. I have no arguement to counter one where self centered ego trumps the laws passed and enacted by society. At almost 60 years of age, I have learned that without society behaving with respect to each other, the eventual result will be chaos and before you say, "it's just a leash law", it is none less important to obey, than any other.


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## Whiteshepherds

Meekah's Bud said:


> This very statement. "or letting their dogs off leash UNLESS it interferes with me." *speaks volumes*. It says that as long as YOU are happy, nothing else matters. I have no arguement to counter one where self centered ego trumps the laws passed and enacted by society.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Falkosmom

Caledon, 
OP states she starts yelling at any dog that *approaches*, she does not make any allowances for somebody walking their dog peaceably by their side off leash totally ignoring OP and her dog. She just starts verbally attacking anybody with an off leash dog, regardless of that dog's behavior.

Meekasbud,
OP's actions are clearly breaking several laws. Where I come from her actions are illegal, and if the law were to become involved, and she did not cease her bad behavior, she would ultimately wind up with a restraining order and not be allowed to even be in the park with her victims.

Yes it is _just a leash law_ *if and only if *_it is just a harrassment, or a disorderly conduct, or any other law_. How can so many be so vocal about breaking a leash law yet turn a blind eye to OP breaking the law?


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## Falkosmom

Saw this on the internet for Wisconsin, OP's state:

The disorderly conduct statute bars "violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud or otherwise disorderly conduct" when it provokes or causes a disturbance.

OP seems to admit to disorderly conduct, as per the statutes in her state.


----------



## DJEtzel

Meekah's Bud said:


> Well, that, I guess, is the advantage of living in a free society. You can chose to do what you want with no concern for others. I was raised to respect the law and other people. This very statement. "or letting their dogs off leash UNLESS it interferes with me." speaks volumes. It says that as long as YOU are happy, nothing else matters. I have no arguement to counter one where self centered ego trumps the laws passed and enacted by society. At almost 60 years of age, I have learned that without society behaving with respect to each other, the eventual result will be chaos and before you say, "it's just a leash law", it is none less important to obey, than any other.


It absolutely doesn't though. In the very next sentence that you chose not to quote I said that I follow the same rule and do not interfere with other people's happiness by any means whether I'm following the law or breaking it.


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## JakodaCD OA

Falkosmom I think "you" should reread the OPS first post...she states dogs that are *approaching OFF LEASH.*

BIG difference. I guess YOU don't have a problem with offleash dogs coming up to yours? Good for you

I DO have a problem with it. Take responsibility for your (general your) dog and keep it on a leash in areas that it should be on a leash.

My dog has been charged, jumped, and DOES not appreciate 'rude' dogs. Sure it's MY responsibility to protect her, but how are you supposed to protect a 75lb dog with another 75lb+ dog coming in to "just say hi?" or "start crap?"

I can take MY dog anywhere into any situation, but ya know what? I don't appreciate idiot owners who aren't in control of their own animals..My dog won't give you or your dog (general you) the time of day, she could care less about you or your dog but don't get in her face. 

It's RUDE and irresponsible. 

I certainly can understand mistakes happen, but to intentionally allow your dog to get in some strange dogs face is again , rude and irresponsible. 

I'm fed up with idiot owners who don't take responsibility for their dogs. I leash my dog and have her under control, I expect the same courtesy of others. 

So, again, I have no problem using my pepper spray if I have to, and dropping the F bomb. Ya wanna call the cops thats fine.

When it comes down to it, it sounds like your (general you gosh don't want anyone to think I'm pointing fingers unleashed dog is breaking the law as well as my potty mouth


----------



## Meekah's Bud

Falkosmom said:


> Caledon,
> OP states she starts yelling at any dog that *approaches*, she does not make any allowances for somebody walking their dog peaceably by their side off leash totally ignoring OP and her dog. She just starts verbally attacking anybody with an off leash dog, regardless of that dog's behavior.
> 
> Meekasbud,
> OP's actions are clearly breaking several laws. Where I come from her actions are illegal, and if the law were to become involved, and she did not cease her bad behavior, she would ultimately wind up with a restraining order and not be allowed to even be in the park with her victims.
> 
> Yes it is _just a leash law_ *if and only if *_it is just a harrassment, or a disorderly conduct, or any other law_. How can so many be so vocal about breaking a leash law yet turn a blind eye to OP breaking the law?


In no way do I condone the OP's verbal assaults or actions, and at no point did I state I did. I have said that *ALL* laws are to be obeyed equally and by all. Period. I do however feel that for the safety of all be it dog or human, all dogs should be leashed when out in public, whether there is a leash law or not and absolutely when there is a leash law. Somehow the focus seems to have deteriorated to more of what people want to do, than what is legally correct. Once again, the law is the law and when it states you are to leash the dog, then the dog is to be leashed. Don't want to leash your dog, stay off the trail. Pretty simple as I see it.


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## Jessiewessie99

JakodaCD OA said:


> Falkosmom I think "you" should reread the OPS first post...she states dogs that are *approaching OFF LEASH.*
> 
> BIG difference. I guess YOU don't have a problem with offleash dogs coming up to yours? Good for you
> 
> I DO have a problem with it. Take responsibility for your (general your) dog and keep it on a leash in areas that it should be on a leash.
> 
> My dog has been charged, jumped, and DOES not appreciate 'rude' dogs. Sure it's MY responsibility to protect her, but how are you supposed to protect a 75lb dog with another 75lb+ dog coming in to "just say hi?" or "start crap?"
> 
> I can take MY dog anywhere into any situation, but ya know what? I don't appreciate idiot owners who aren't in control of their own animals..My dog won't give you or your dog (general you) the time of day, she could care less about you or your dog but don't get in her face.
> 
> It's RUDE and irresponsible.
> 
> I certainly can understand mistakes happen, but to intentionally allow your dog to get in some strange dogs face is again , rude and irresponsible.
> 
> I'm fed up with idiot owners who don't take responsibility for their dogs. I leash my dog and have her under control, I expect the same courtesy of others.
> 
> So, again, I have no problem using my pepper spray if I have to, and dropping the F bomb. Ya wanna call the cops thats fine.
> 
> When it comes down to it, it sounds like your (general you gosh don't want anyone to think I'm pointing fingers unleashed dog is breaking the law as well as my potty mouth


I agree 100%! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jack's Dad

Lauri & The Gang said:


> For example, Mauser is dog aggressive/reactive. If I'm out walking him and someone is approaching us with their dog off leash I will yell to them to get their dog on leash NOW.
> 
> I YELL - *Put Your Dog ONLEASH* *NOW*! I don't speak in a normal tone of voice and it's not a suggestion - it's a *COMMAND*.
> 
> If they start with the "it's ok, my dog is friendly" or whatever - I don't bother with explaining that my dog isn't or anything like that.
> 
> I switch to my inner-guttergirl personality and I yell the following (using the F word) ...
> 
> *Get Your BLEEPING dog on Leash Right the BLEEP NOW!!!*
> 
> I use the F word because it's crass and nasty and bad and it gets people's attention like no other word!



If the area the dog is being walked in requires leashes then peoples dogs should be leashed. I understand the OP's frustration.

There are two issues here though. The off leash dogs which are a big wrong.
Then there is the approach of the OP to the situation. 
In the unlikely event that my dog was off leash and I was asked to leash him I would. If someone used the approach above I would still leash him.

Then I would proceed to tell the Op in as colorfull a language as she used exactly what I thought about her mouth, her heritage and her aggressive dog and anything else that came to mind at the time.
If you think someone is an idiot; screaming, yelling, commanding and swearing at them is not likely to make them into the person you want them to be.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Andy, I certainly understand your viewpoint and agree with most of it.

However, it sounds like you've never had an encounter with a "stupid dog owner", one who may 'repeat' the offense over and over..

I HAVE, and frustrating is putting it mildly...I expect to be able to take a walk with my dog and not have to worry about some "cujo" coming at me because "cujo's owner" doesn't think their dog should be on a leash. 

Once when this happened, I had my gsd and aussie, the 'offender's' owner stood right there and didn't do a darn thing,,I told her she was lucky her dog didn't get 'bit' or get into a good dog fight(no I wasn't dropping the F bomb),,,her response was
"well maybe YOUR (mine) dogs would deserve it"....

SO YEAH, my dogs would deserve it?? Mine who are on leash minding their own business and YOURS is coming at me full boar looking for trouble? That's when I dropped the F bomb..and yeah I called her a name 

So now I carry pepper spray,, I think when you encounter 'stupid' and it's a matter of your safety and your dogs safety, it's enough to frustrate anyone


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## Jack's Dad

Diane:

At my age I have encountered *stupid* in almost every area of life you can imagine. Swearing, screaming, yelling, demanding are not cures for *stupid*.
If that worked we would all be smart, responsible people.

I'm all for pepper spray to protect ourselves and our animals.

Jack is not dog aggressive but he has been bit 3 times now by different dogs that were loose. They came from their yards as he was walked. The third was by a Rottie while Jack was being walked by my adult son for some reason as the fight was beginning my son shooed the Rottie and he ran back to his house.
My son showed me where the house was and all I needed to do was take a look at the stuff they had around the house and I knew talking to them would be useless.
As I said Jack is not aggressive but he will not back down so I'm very well aware of what can happen.


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## Falkosmom

Jacoda CD,

OP states dog that are approaching OFF LEASH. She does not discriminate between walking peaceably off leash at their owner's side and totally ignoring her and her dog, vs dogs coming up to hers and/or getting in its face. *Huge difference!* OP lumps them all together.


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## JakodaCD OA

Off leash is off leash, whether walking peacefully by their side or not,,how would "I" know as an owner whether this 'offleash' dog is going to break from their owner and come charging at me?

If there is a leash law out in public then it should be adheared to. I adhear to it why shouldn't "you"? 

Andy, ahh so i see you've been there done that


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## Courtney

Wow...this thread got my attention because of the many pages. I posted shortly after the OP. I know it should not be viewed as funny but it's comical to me that we are talking about "disorderly conduct" laws in the OP's state...seriously?

To each his own but *gasp* if raising my voice or using a few choice words gets my point across to keep your leashed/unleashed nice/agressive dog away from me and my dog is going to work...I'm going to do it.

Further more since getting my first dog almost two years ago and being in the general public with other dog owners I have never come across a more annoying group of people who think others should enjoy the company of their dog who just wants to play or say hi. I'm probably just as annoying to those group of people who ignore or say no but it's my dog my choice who approaches him.


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## codmaster

Jack's Dad said:


> If the area the dog is being walked in requires leashes then peoples dogs should be leashed. I understand the OP's frustration.
> 
> There are two issues here though. The off leash dogs which are a big wrong.
> Then there is the approach of the OP to the situation.
> In the unlikely event that my dog was off leash and I was asked to leash him I would. If someone used the approach above I would still leash him.
> 
> Then I would proceed to tell the Op in as colorfull a language as she used exactly what I thought about her mouth, her heritage and her aggressive dog and anything else that came to mind at the time.
> If you think someone is an idiot; screaming, yelling, commanding and swearing at them is not likely to make them into the person you want them to be.


 
Her heritage?


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## Jack's Dad

codmaster said:


> Her heritage?


Not going to explain that on a public forum. Suffice it to say it's insulting though. 
I am glad you mentioned it because when I said OP I was not referring to Laurie who is probably a very nice person. 
I meant a response to someone who greeted you the way that was suggested in the original post.
My personal opinion is that you don't get anywhere with a greeting like that and as I said before if screaming, swearing, etc.. worked we would all be smart responsible owners. It doesn't work. Starting off by demanding and swearing at people you do not know because you don't approve of their actions will probably only create anger in them. Then you do have a problem and right or wrong doesn't matter betweeen two angry parties.

A perfect example of this is road rage.


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## Redgrappler

Courtney said:


> To each his own but *gasp* if raising my voice or using a few choice words gets my point across to keep your leashed/unleashed nice/agressive dog away from me and my dog is going to work...I'm going to do it.


This is a careless and immature way of handling this situation. Not to mention dangerous. IMO, it is always ok to ask others to leash their dogs for the safety of both dogs...but to outright insult someone with "a few choice words"" is asking for a world of problems. 

I work in law enforcement and I can't tell you how many physical confrontations have started just because people had a "few choice words". What I can't understand is, why on earth would someone yell and curse at a person with a dog off leash? I would venture to say that most dogs do not have the training that many of ours on this forum do, but all dogs have some kind of protection mode. You could be asking for trouble with your "few choice words" because of immaturity, lack of impulse control, and carelessness. So what if you would win in a court of law...you could still pay a price with a dog fight, your @$$ whooped, and possible mutual combat charges...

All in all, it rarely pays to be mean. Don't get me wrong, I am no buddhist monk and I have an ego like everyone else, I am just able to pick my battles.


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## Meekah's Bud

Redgrappler said:


> This is a careless and immature way of handling this situation. Not to mention dangerous. IMO, it is always ok to ask others to leash their dogs for the safety of both dogs...but to outright insult someone with "a few choice words"" is asking for a world of problems.
> 
> I work in law enforcement and I can't tell you how many physical confrontations have started just because people had a "few choice words". What I can't understand is, why on earth would someone yell and curse at a person with a dog off leash? I would venture to say that most dogs do not have the training that many of ours on this forum do, but all dogs have some kind of protection mode. You could be asking for trouble with your "few choice words" because of immaturity, lack of impulse control, and carelessness. So what if you would win in a court of law...you could still pay a price with a dog fight, your @$$ whooped, and possible mutual combat charges...
> 
> All in all, it rarely pays to be mean. Don't get me wrong, I am no buddhist monk and I have an ego like everyone else, I am just able to pick my battles.


If, as you say, you work in law enforcement, do you not agree, then, that regardless of how well trained a dog may be, it absolutely *must be leashed* if there is a leash law for that particular area? The law is the law. It is not a negotiable system whereby some are exempt because their dogs are better trained or more obedient. To say, or imply, anything different is to encourage disobedience of law. If everyone followed the law, and leashed their dogs, there would be no need for these "few choice words". However it is people that chose to ignore the law that are the culprits, no matter how much they may try to justify it to others and themselves. As someone in law enforcement, I assume you are totally opposed to people walking dogs "off leash" in areas where there is a leash law.


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## Redgrappler

Seriously, you don't see law enforcement officers yelling at people about leash laws. I don't work the streets as most POs do, but I can safely say that our training teaches us to be cordial and respectful until otherwise needed. Yes, leash laws need to be enforced but to say that those not following the laws needs to be cursed at is ridiculous. Ill just say this, if anyone ever cursed at me, for any reason....chances are my reaction will be way negative and the same choice words will be used against you. What would that bring...absolutely nothing. Oh, and yes...I do have my dog on a leash all the time. 

Seriously, justifying cursing someone out whom you don't know is just plain old stupid. Your mouth could be cashing some serious checks that you @ss can't pay. That's keeping it real. Like I said, I have seen situations such explode to the point where it is uncontrollable because someone had a few "choice words"...which usually means cursing someone out.


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## Meekah's Bud

Redgrappler said:


> Seriously, you don't see law enforcement officers yelling at people about leash laws. I don't work the streets as most POs do, but I can safely say that our training teaches us to be cordial and respectful until otherwise needed. Yes, leash laws need to be enforced but to say that those not following the laws needs to be cursed at is ridiculous. Ill just say this, if anyone ever cursed at me, for any reason....chances are my reaction will be way negative and the same choice words will be used against you. What would that bring...absolutely nothing. Oh, and yes...I do have my dog on a leash all the time.
> 
> Seriously, justifying cursing someone out whom you don't know is just plain old stupid. Your mouth could be cashing some serious checks that you @ss can't pay. That's keeping it real. Like I said, I have seen situations such explode to the point where it is uncontrollable because someone had a few "choice words"...which usually means cursing someone out.


Never once have I, nor would I, advocate cursing, swearing or yelling but the whole point, here seems to have turned to that topic instead of the whole point which was off leash dogs. So, if we want to avoid this whole issue, everyone should simply obey the law and keep the dogs on the leash. Maybe the big problem is that law enforcement is not taking the leash laws seriously enough. May PO's should be paying some attention to that as it is a law in some areas. My whole point is, if there is a law in place obey it and if you don't want to obey the law, then stay away from areas that have leash laws. Doesn't seem like rocket science, more like common sense and courtesy.


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## Falkosmom

I wonder how many police officers we would need patrolling the streets to apprehend each and every person walking a dog off leash, jaywalking, being out after curfew, .... heck, curfew is ten over here and I don't even get home from work till almost eleven...and sometimes I take my dogs for a walk when I get home!!! Yikes!!

I guess I am a career criminal. Officer, arrest me. LOL!


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## Meekah's Bud

Falkosmom said:


> I wonder how many police officers we would need patrolling the streets to apprehend each and every person walking a dog off leash, jaywalking, being out after curfew, .... heck, curfew is ten over here and I don't even get home from work till almost eleven...and sometimes I take my dogs for a walk when I get home!!! Yikes!!
> 
> I guess I am a career criminal. Officer, arrest me. LOL!


It will never cease to amaze me how people can try to make something into something it isn't. The whole issue is very simple so let's make it simple. What is it that is so hard for people to understand? The law says leash, then leash. How about this. people keep disobeying the law and the next thing that will happen is some politician will come up with a solution. First offense, $50 fine, second $300 fine and 3rd offense is third strike, $500 fine and the dog is confiscated. Now all of those that seem incapable of obeying the law will be the first to whine and complain, when it is their fault to start with. As far as your comment, "I guess I am a career criminal. Officer, arrest me. LOL!" Sorry, as someone who does not knowingly break the law, whether I agree with it or not, I find that type of attitude to be symptomatic of many problems that we see in society, today. People pick and chose what laws to obey. Not an overly mature attitude.


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## PaddyD

Every day I meet a couple of people at a large park that has several soccer fields and a softball field. Our 3 dogs play and have a great time, off leash. Around the area there are sign that announce a $100 fine for off-leash dogs. We have been doing this for several months. The dogs stay around us and don't bother anyone. We are illegal. When the time comes, we will pay up and shut up.
Now tell me. What percent of the time do YOU drive the speed limit? If you do, I don't want to be behind you.


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## codmaster

PaddyD said:


> Every day I meet a couple of people at a large park that has several soccer fields and a softball field. Our 3 dogs play and have a great time, off leash. Around the area there are sign that announce a $100 fine for off-leash dogs. We have been doing this for several months. The dogs stay around us and don't bother anyone. We are illegal. When the time comes, we will pay up and shut up.
> 
> Now tell me. What percent of the time do YOU drive the speed limit? If you do, *I don't want to be behind you*.


 *Of course you wouldn't!*


So, how would one decide which laws are ok to break with impunity?

Maybe just the inconvienient ones or maybe just the ones that you don't like or think are stupid or maybe "JUST THE ONES THAT DON"T APPLY TO YOU (AND YOUR FRIENDS)"?

How would you feel if a cop gave you a $100 or $300 ticket for an unleashed dog? (Most folks with that attitude would be yelling things like "UNFAIR!"). 

I assume that you would just accept it as a consequence of your breaking the law and pay it? Correct?


So, if you don't like leash laws and also speed limit laws, you figure it is ok to break them, correct? How about litter laws? How do you feel about them - ok to just throw your trash anywhere you (or others of course) feel like it?

How do you feel about the law that says you have to pick up after your dog (poop!)? OK I am assuming to just leave it anywhere your unleashed dog decides to go?


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## PaddyD

codmaster said:


> *Of course you wouldn't!*
> 
> 
> So, how would one decide which laws are ok to break with impunity?
> 
> Maybe just the inconvienient ones or maybe just the ones that you don't like or think are stupid or maybe "JUST THE ONES THAT DON"T APPLY TO YOU (AND YOUR FRIENDS)"?
> 
> How would you feel if a cop gave you a $100 or $300 ticket for an unleashed dog? (Most folks with that attitude would be yelling things like "UNFAIR!").
> 
> I assume that you would just accept it as a consequence of your breaking the law and pay it? Correct?
> 
> 
> So, if you don't like leash laws and also speed limit laws, you figure it is ok to break them, correct? How about litter laws? How do you feel about them - ok to just throw your trash anywhere you (or others of course) feel like it?
> 
> How do you feel about the law that says you have to pick up after your dog (poop!)? OK I am assuming to just leave it anywhere your unleashed dog decides to go?


Well, if you are asking ME. I pick up after my dog. Actually, I carry extra bags and pick up after other owners' dogs. I obey the leash law everywhere except stated above. I pay fines without complaint. I don't break laws with impunity. I drive faster than the speed limit and I don't always stop for stop signs on a right turn at a 3-way stop when there are no cars in sight.
I don't think laws that I break are unfair, which is why I pay the fine without complaint.
Oh, and I don't wear a seat belt on my motorcycle either.


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## Whiteshepherds

PaddyD said:


> I don't break laws with impunity. I drive faster than the speed limit and I don't always stop for stop signs on a right turn at a 3-way stop when there are no cars in sight.


Isn't stopping at stop signs and using turn signals considered a sign of weakness in MA? 
Seems that way everytime I have to drive in Boston.


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## Falkosmom

Do no harm.. that is how I pick and choose what laws I break.

Maturity is about being responsible for yourself and not blaming others for your shortcomings or irresponsibilty and not trying to control or change others that do not stack up to your standards, a little tolerance of differences in others goes a long way.


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## PaddyD

Whiteshepherds said:


> Isn't stopping at stop signs and using turn signals considered a sign of weakness in MA?
> Seems that way everytime I have to drive in Boston.


Don't get me started on Connecticut left-lane bandits.
As for turn signals, I agree. I think most Massholes are saving them for a rainy day. My 'confession' about stop signs only pertains to when I can't see anyone and there is good visibility for a good distance in all directions.


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## PaddyD

Falkosmom said:


> Do no harm.. that is how I pick and choose what laws I break.
> 
> Maturity is about being responsible for yourself and not blaming others for your shortcomings or irresponsibilty and not trying to control or change others that do not stack up to your standards, a little tolerance of differences in others goes a long way.


Amen, Sista


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## Falkosmom

Laws are written with the best of "intentions", subject to interpretation by the legal system, few are meant to be taken literally in *all* contexts. 

If you see somebody breaking the law, please do call the police or make a citizen's arrest. But if your response to the transgression is to break the law yourself.... since when do two wrongs make a right?

Thank goodness this is the land of the free, the self proclaimed gestapo are legends in their own minds.


Thanks PaddyD


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## Meekah's Bud

Falkosmom said:


> Do no harm.. that is how I pick and choose what laws I break.
> 
> Maturity is about being responsible for yourself and not blaming others for your shortcomings or irresponsibilty and not trying to control or change others that do not stack up to your standards, a little tolerance of differences in others goes a long way.


Doing no harm, according to who? That is, without doubt, the singular most irresponsible statement I have ever read. There is a reason why laws are made and they apply to everyone. It is this type of "me first" attitude that explains why society is such a mess today. Maturity is about respecting everyone and that means obeying the laws that are written and apply equally to everyone. Picking and choosing the laws you decide to follow is the type of attitude I worked at teaching our 4 boys was wrong and unacceptable. As far as stacking up to my standards has nothing to do with anything. Try stacking up to the laws. That is called being socially responsible. You are advocating total social irresponsibility and demonstrates a total lack of respect for the law and society, as a whole. Nothing short of shameful!!


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## Jack's Dad

Meekah's Bud said:


> Doing no harm, according to who? That is, without doubt, the singular most irresponsible statement I have ever read. There is a reason why laws are made and they apply to everyone. It is this type of "me first" attitude that explains why society is such a mess today. Maturity is about respecting everyone and that means obeying the laws that are written and apply equally to everyone. Picking and choosing the laws you decide to follow is the type of attitude I worked at teaching our 4 boys was wrong and unacceptable. As far as stacking up to my standards has nothing to do with anything. Try stacking up to the laws. That is called being socially responsible. You are advocating total social irresponsibility and demonstrates a total lack of respect for the law and society, as a whole. Nothing short of shameful!!


Unfortunately they are deceased but otherwise I would tell you to explain your theory to Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks. Seemed to work for them. 
They were willing to pay the consequences.


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## Lucy Dog

This thread is still going on?!


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## Falkosmom

Andy, 

It could not have been said better.


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## Lucy Dog

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but you're not seriously comparing what Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks stood up for to walking your dog off leash just because you feel like it.

Please tell me I'm missing something here...


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## Falkosmom

Lucy, 

I did not make a comparison to anything, you definitely are missing something here.


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## Jack's Dad

Lucy Dog said:


> Maybe I'm missing the point here, but you're not seriously comparing what Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks stood up for to walking your dog off leash just because you feel like it.
> 
> Please tell me I'm missing something here...


No I'm not comparing the two. It's my way of saying this thread is beyond rediculous at this point.

I don't think society is going to **** in a hand basket because people don't always do the speed limit and a few let their dogs off leash at times.


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## Lucy Dog

Falkosmom said:


> Lucy,
> 
> I did not make a comparison to anything, you definitely are missing something here.





Jack's Dad said:


> No I'm not comparing the two. It's my way of saying this thread is beyond rediculous at this point.
> 
> I don't think society is going to **** in a hand basket because people don't always do the speed limit and a few let their dogs off leash at times.


Gotcha... I didn't read every recent post in this thread. I just saw not everyone follows the rules and MLK and Rosa Parks name mentioned and thought, what the ...

Hey... I remember someone posting here how he wanted two puppies at once and when everyone told him not to, he had the nerve to compare the way people here were treating him to the holocaust, so anything's possible...


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## chelle

Good_Karma said:


> I have a ton of respect for people who have a dog who is non-reactive to other dogs (no matter how the other dog is behaving) and who have complete verbal control of their dog without the need for a leash. I have never actually met such a person/dog combination, but I suppose they do exist. Not in my neck of the woods, where the density (ahem  ) of bad dog owners far exceeds that of responsible dog owners.
> 
> So Falkosmom, this is why someone like me might see lots of red flags going up when they see an off-leash dog. Every time my dog reacts to a trigger, it reinforces itself and makes it all the more likely he will react again in the future. I have learned to assume the very worst from other dog owners because I have no reason to expect any better. All the times I have assumed that the owner will contain their dog, I have been sadly mistaken.
> 
> Just a bit of insight into the mind of a reactive dog owner. Kudos to you for having such a great relationship with your dog!


I have such a dog. Loves every dog. So far. He's young yet, this could change. A month or two ago, though, we met a DA dog on our backwoods trails. I was shocked, because I've never seen a dog back there. A few humans in the many years I've walked my dogs there. Bailey was happily running up the trail and stopped dead in his tracks to GRRRRR & deep throated growling. I heard it and thought WTH? Bailey froze, on alert. Thankfully the owner, with his wife and two kids, GRABBED his DA dog and got yanked into the little stream for his efforts. It was all that adult human male could do to keep that dog from charging us full force. That dog wanted to kill mine - or so it seemed. I immediately leashed Bailey up and stepped aside of the trail and put Bails in a sit. He complied. I think he was as wierded out as I was. We were probably a solid 6 foot off the trail and the owner, his dog leashed up, went on by and the dog lunged and freaked out while passing. Thank God it was a strong man controlling this dog or all **** may have broken loose.

Now why was THIS dog offleash? Granted, as I said above, it is exceedingly rare to see a dog on these trails. Maybe the owner knew that and decided to take a chance. After all, that's why I love it there so much - it's deserted 99% of the time. Actually in the eight years I've been going there, I've seen exactly two dogs there - being walked together. But this guy had that dog offleash. Did he gain control of the dog? Yes. Did that highly DA dog belong anywhere offleash? NO!



Draugr said:


> I will admit that I do let Samson off leash time to time in areas where he is not supposed to be off-leash. He is not the least bit dog-aggressive. And his human-nervousness is always hovering at a very, very low percent in an outdoors unrestricted area.
> 
> But if anyone else comes in sight or I see him react in a way that tells me he knows another dog is nearby, he is recalled and put right back on-leash.
> 
> I am not worried about him meeting another dog, he loves other dogs. But it is discourteous to other people to allow that to happen without prior permission. I don't know what the other dog is like (it is irresponsible for me to allow Samson to approach him/her) and they don't know what my dog is like (it is disrespectful for me to allow him to come near). Considering CCP's are handed out like candy many states including my own, I'm also risking his life. Or his health with non-lethal weapons.


True enough. It's always a risk. I talked about the county park I go to above, that is almost always totally deserted... but you never know. It's a risk.



Lilie said:


> I have to admit, that if I have my dog in an area where the law requires the use of a leash, and I am approached by a dog that is off leash....I'm not going to be very nice...to the dog or the owner.
> 
> It just takes one bad experiance to turn my non dog reactive dog into a reactive dog. That dog doesn't have to come up to my dog in an aggressive manner to create a reaction from my dog. I pity the person who causes this.
> 
> I do not take my dog to places where there are no leash requirements.


Agreed. If leash is the law, then it is. The places I go for offleash stuff don't have stated laws about dogs, much less leashing. 


The original post got so screwed up. I've never been rushed by an offleash dog when we're at the city park, out on walks, etc. People around here do a good job of leashing their dogs in most cases. BUT if it did happen that another dog approached, I probably wouldn't freak out DEPENDING ON the dog, his posture, his behavior, etc. If I felt any threat, I'd start by saying something very firm about not allowing the approach. If that didn't cut it, I'd break out my sailor mouth. 



PaddyD said:


> Every day I meet a couple of people at a large park that has several soccer fields and a softball field. Our 3 dogs play and have a great time, off leash. Around the area there are sign that announce a $100 fine for off-leash dogs. We have been doing this for several months. The dogs stay around us and don't bother anyone. We are illegal. When the time comes, we will pay up and shut up.
> Now tell me. What percent of the time do YOU drive the speed limit? If you do, I don't want to be behind you.


Wellll I am never more than 5 mph over the limit. And I always use my turn signals. Always. 



Jack's Dad said:


> No I'm not comparing the two. It's my way of saying this thread is beyond rediculous at this point.
> 
> I don't think society is going to **** in a hand basket because people don't always do the speed limit and a few let their dogs off leash at times.


Many, many, many lives would be saved if people did the speed limit. Something like 1/3 of all traffic fatalities are due to speeding. Just sayin'.  What else would you expect a driving instructor to say, anyway?


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## Meekah's Bud

I am using "you" and "your" in a generic form here.

Apparently, this topic has deteriorated to comparing out and out racism to a law that is applied equally across the board. MLK and Rosa Parks fought a law that discriminated against people based on race. A leash law applies equally regardless of breed, size, sex, temperament, or age of dog. It also applies to all owners regardless of race, sex, age, religion or what have you. It is therefore an all inclusive law to be applied equally and is in place for the protection of humans and dogs. To take the stand that you don't care because your dog is so well trained that it will never disobey you, is to intentionally put your dog at risk each and every time you do take him out off leash. My sympathies to a dog who's owner has so little regard for their pets safety and well being. My dog is off leash, with me, on our property. Off our property, she is leashed, not because she needs to be, but because it is the law and I am not willing to put her at risk. In the same way that speeding is illegal and puts you and others at risk every time you do it, allowing your dog off leash where there is a leash law puts everyone involved at risk and for what, so you can say that you don't feel like obeying the law? That gives a whole new meaning to irresponsibility and immaturity. Guess it's time for me to find another topic as this one seems to be going nowhere.....fast!


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## Mrs.K

You should have heard me yelling when two loose dogs approached us. Us in four German Shepherds on the leash and me as a single handler. While mine were okay and didn't do anything I had to kick them off, which was quite an act, balancing the four dogs that started pulling and kicking that neurotic husky off of mine. It was already dark and you could literally watch the lights going on in window, by window. I don't care what the neighborhood thinks about me. I yell and scream to get their effing dogs off of mine and one family came running out the door asking why I'd yell and that they weren't their dogs. You'd think they would have helped? 

Then the dogs ran off and I kept walking. They followed us back to the house. Once I had mine in the house, I could see that those two loose dogs started harrassing another couple walking their little dog. They had to pick up the dog. Then I went to a neighbors knocked harshly on the door and we got the dogs back, together. 

It's pissing me off and if I have to, I scream and yell so much and loud that the entire neighborhood gets up and out. I have no shame when it comes up to that. 



Lauri & The Gang said:


> I'm catching up on posts and I'm finding more and more posts where we (dog owners) tell others to NOT do something - do NOT try to pet my dog, do NOT allow your dog to run up to mine, etc.
> 
> I am one of the most polite people in the world. I was raised to always say please and thank you, hold the door open for the next person (regardless of gender) and to never speak negatively to someone (unless truly warranted) and I maintain those behaviors ... except when stupid people do stupid things around my dogs.
> 
> For example, Mauser is dog aggressive/reactive. If I'm out walking him and someone is approaching us with their dog off leash I will yell to them to get their dog on leash NOW.
> 
> I YELL - *Put Your Dog ONLEASH* *NOW*! I don't speak in a normal tone of voice and it's not a suggestion - it's a *COMMAND*.
> 
> If they start with the "it's ok, my dog is friendly" or whatever - I don't bother with explaining that my dog isn't or anything like that.
> 
> I switch to my inner-guttergirl personality and I yell the following (using the F word) ...
> 
> *Get Your BLEEPING dog on Leash Right the BLEEP NOW!!!*
> 
> I use the F word because it's crass and nasty and bad and it gets people's attention like no other word!
> 
> I don't know these people. I don't care if they think I'm bad or whatever. I just want to be able to avoid having to put my dog to sleep because their unleashed dog ran up to 'say Hi' and mine mauled it.
> 
> I have a friend that takes pepper spray and an air horn with her when she walks her dog. She's been rushed several times by off-leash dogs while their owners lollygag behind saying "It's ok, Spot just wants to say Hi." only to have Spot attack her dogs.
> 
> Now she yells once then sprays if the owner doesn't call their dogs away from hers.


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## Falkosmom

Meekah's Bud

You stated:
"There is a reason why laws are made and they apply to everyone. It is this type of "me first" attitude that explains why society is such a mess today. Maturity is about respecting everyone and that means obeying the laws that are written and apply equally to everyone. Picking and choosing the laws you decide to follow is the type of attitude I worked at teaching our 4 boys was wrong and unacceptable."

Then you defend lawbreaking by trying to twist it into a comparison between racism and leash laws:
"MLK and Rosa Parks fought a law that discriminated against people based on race."

And does that make it okay? Are you approving of selectively breaking the law as long as it suits you and what you believe in?
Are you picking and choosing which laws people should follow? Isn't that wrong and unacceptable?

But you also wrote:
"I have said that *ALL* laws are to be obeyed equally and by all. Period. "
Which way is it?

No this topic has not derailed, OPs initial post was about how she selectively breaks the law whenever she encounters others breaking leash laws and so many on here began bashing leash law offenders while most chose to ignore OPs lawbreaking transgressions. None is so blind as he that will not see.


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## Jessiewessie99

I would never compare leash laws to "laws" that were purposely put in place to discriminate people based on their own race. Two COMPLETELY different things, like comparing apples to oranges. Bad comparison. I don't even consider those laws as they are just an excuse to hurt people without getting trouble.

If I see someone walking their dog without a leash(there is a leash law here in Lakewood) but the dog is behaving and the owner and dog are minding their own business then I won't do anything or say anything to them, I will not curse or harass them. I will not go all crazy and yell at them for not having the leash.I will leave them alone. Because it won't be me who will be paying the price, it will be them if something were to happen.


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## Falkosmom

I need to correct myself, OP never once said a word about people not observing leash laws, she takes issue with *"unleashed dogs".* So the "approaching" dogs she may be taking issue with could very well be in an area where dogs are legally permitted to be off leash.


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