# Kind of a sad question



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Selzer's thread about her problems with Odessa's litter got me thinking. Seems like you good, responsible breeders have a heck of a time getting these little puppers on the ground. 

Gerdeshaus GSD is right down the road from me, I stopped by the other day to chat and she told me that her bitch Cena spontaneously aborted the litter she was due to have in December. The poor thing went through the whole nesting behavior, had false contractions, and even produced milk!

My whole issue with Meerhout started when no less than 3 litters either didn't take or aborted. 

And most of the litters I read about include at least one pup that didn't make it. 

Is my perception accurate? Does tragedy strike breeders as often as it seems like it does to my limited experience? And why is it that you can "accidentally" have your untitled female breed to the "AKC certified" male down the road and end up with 14 perfectly healthy little $300 dogs, while people trying to import pregnant bitches from Germany or breeding top quality dogs are plagued with problems?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

...because of Murphy's Law...(I really can't answer, I've asked myself the same questions).
It can just be stomach turning & heart wrenching...but because of "passion" and dedication....one continues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I feel the same way. If the scruffy border collie mix hopped two fences and squeezed into my kennel, my bitch would have 14 healthy mixed puppies. While breeding to a top dog, and going through major calisthetics, I have a miss. 

Are we trying too hard? Have we done too many tests/ x-rays. This bitch had her rabies vaccine in November, so she could be shipped, could that have been an issue. 

Yuppies, who have their education, and their dream job, and their home, and their marriage, often have trouble having that first kid. While high school children often get knocked up with no problems whatsoever. It is almost like the more uncertain you are about your future, the easier it is for your body to conceive. How does that make any sense?


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

.....I have no idea.....I wonder the same thing about tragedies happening, and the statistics and such. Jackson was a survivor! 4 of his littermates didn't make it, and mom had to have a c-section. He wasn't the greatest breeder, no titles on the dogs, but I know he really cared. 

I wonder if dogs can possibly sense the pure anticipation and relay it as stress which causes problems? I just wonder....because you are right, I don't, or actually have never heard of a litter, bred in the garage when nobody was watching, that had a tragic ending.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I know the litter Killian came from, they lost a boy and a girl, they would have had eight pups, but ended up with six instead... :-( Very Sad Indeed.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I want to say I think it has something to do with hybrid vigor. 

And to the OP, just because a dog is untitled or lacks papers, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's inferior.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

paulag1955 said:


> And to the OP, just because a dog is untitled or lacks papers, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's inferior.


Nope, just that it shouldn't be bred. My dogs are/were untitled and lacking papers. Of course they're not inferior. But they shouldn't go around reproducing.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Nope, just that it shouldn't be bred.


I wasn't trying to argue that it should be, just that lack of titles or papers shouldn't lead one to assume that complications would be more likely due to some sort of problems with the dogs in question.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

It is sad, and unfair, but that's life, after all. My miniature horse breeder was the most careful, knowledgeable, responsible breeder - she did everything right and then some, and I'll never forget that heartbreaking night when her most beloved mare AND it's foal died during birth. And yet there's been so many times out here where it's rural when mares get mixed up with stallions by accident, like a nag and a TB, and have perfectly fine foals. And yet that champion mare and her impeccably bred foal were gone. Sometimes it's hard to wrap your head around it all.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

paulag1955 said:


> I wasn't trying to argue that it should be, just that lack of titles or papers shouldn't lead one to assume that complications would be more likely due to some sort of problems with the dogs in question.


Oh no, I'm not trying to argue a causal relationship; I'm just asking a question. It just seems like the more you hope and pray and sweat and bleed and SPEND to make a litter come about, the more chance you have of something going wrong. Just like if you have 6 deposits for females, it guarantees you're going to have only males.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

It could be as simple as you aren't as likely to hear about problems that happen with opps litters, litters from unregisterd dogs, mixed dogs etc. 
Maybe there's a forum called BYB Annonymous but I doubt it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Is it really that common to lose at least one pup?


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

This was my thoughts yesterday and thinking about it now made me laugh.
My aussie bitch was to be bred to a really well bred AKC Champion male, we were all excited. He came and lived at my house and the breedings were done formally. We had seen this breeding done before but with my bitches’ brother and the male’s sister, the pups were phenomenal and we were expecting a great litter. NO PUPPIES.....
When she came in season again we just decided to breed to the male’s son he had better conformation and a better pedigree due to his mom's side and he also was mine. We had no anticipation for the litter as we thought she would not conceive again but wouldn't you know we got 7 puppies! (The ultra sound and the xray said five)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Having been on the recieving end of these situations a few times, I always wonder too. Seems Murphy likes to inflict his law more on the good breeders than bad at times. Though realistically, I do think WS has a good point that it's probably perception more than reality and we just don't hear about problems with oops litters and BYBs as much.

I know in our case, puppy mortality hasn't been much of an issue. In 10 litters, for a total of over 60 pups we have had 2 stillborns, 2 that had to be euthanized at birth for defects, and 1 that was very small and underdeveloped and faded and passed within a couple days after birth. So a pretty good record as far as that goes. We've also not encountered too much in the way of whelping problems. Only one c-section and that was Raven's recent I litter where there were only 2 pups, so just not enough in there to stimulate active labor. All others have been pretty easy natural whelpings, though a couple times pups got stuck and needed some help to get turned in the right direction to come out properly, but nothing we couldn't handle ourselves.

What we've encountered though is a horrible luck with AIs, and what seems to be a situation where the more money we pump into the breeding the less likely we are to have a good outcome. 4 times we've spent gobs of money on fresh chilled or frozen AIs, to get no puppies. The one AI breeding we did that did produce puppies was that recent 2 puppy I litter. And the weirdest thing was that there had been 6-7 pups originally, but sometime after the 3rd week she reabsorbed most of them, leaving only 2 viable pups which then had to be delivered via c-section.

All in all, no major horror stories. Though our bank account might disagree and would probabaly consider AI breeding attempts to fit into the horror story category. Honestly, I think we've been quite lucky thus far and hope that luck holds!


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

I wonder what sort of experience breeders have had when doing carefully considered breedings between two dogs who are not closely related or who are complementary but from diffeent lines. Have you noticed a similar number of tragic outcomes? Admittedly, this would only be anecdotal evidence, but it might indicate an interesting line of inquiry if there seem to be less in the way of unsuccessful outcomes.

My guess would be that all of the factors suggested by the previous posters could have an influence on whether or not litters are conceived and born and raised successfully. I am not suggesting that close breeding is responsible, just that it might be productive to consider whether or not it could be a factor. What do you all think?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have a friend that breeds GSD's and she has had a bad run too latley. Lost a female to bloat, then one did not take with AI. She did a live breeding on her third female and no pregnancy either. She won;t have any pups - maybe, til next spring. 

The last litter she had was only 3 pups too. 

But as she said, sometimes it happens that way. Mother nature really cannot be predicted.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I only have one experience whelping a litter. Years ago (and posted on this forum) I rescued a dog who also happened to be pregnant. One pup was stillborn and one had to be euthanized at 2-3 days old due to a severe cleft palate. The mom was a friendly dog but dad was unknown of course. I did the early neurological stimulation on all the puppies and took them out everywhere. From age 4 weeks I could tell they just did not have good temperaments. Later 1 had to be euthanized for fear aggression and the remaining 3 are still in their original adoptive homes, but all have aggression of some kind. That was a horrible experience to lose 2 quickly and then have to euth another. All of it made me wish I had just aborted her. The mom is doing fabulous in her adoptive home. I still get updates on her and the 3 puppies. And I'm always prepared to take back any of those 3 pups.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Humans are not closely related, since inbreeding is not allowed in most countries, yet miscarriages, birth defects, deaths and c-sections still occur. We are working with nature and trying to create life. At times things just go wrong.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

paulag1955 said:


> I want to say I think it has something to do with hybrid vigor.


If anything I think it would have more to do with human intervention like AI, humans deciding which heat cycles to breed/not breed, what days of the cycle to breed on, etc.


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Humans are not closely related, since inbreeding is not allowed in most countries, yet miscarriages, birth defects, deaths and c-sections still occur. We are working with nature and trying to create life. At times things just go wrong.


 
Really good point! Wasn't considering humans as an example, but should have as that is so true. Glad you brought it up.

Another good bit of evidence from Spiritsmom (to my way of thinking). Fits in nicely with what Whiteshepherds was saying.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Liesje said:


> If anything I think it would have more to do with human intervention like AI, humans deciding which heat cycles to breed/not breed, what days of the cycle to breed on, etc.


Maybe we're really not so far apart on our thinking. When I said hybrid vigor, I was really thinking of decades of human intervention in the breeding process possibly having uninteded consequences; hence, chance breedings may (seem) to be more successful due to hybrid vigor. 

Did that make sense?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Out of four litters, I have only lost neonatal puppies (two) in one. I lost a 6 week old puppy to Parvo, which was heartbreaking but her littermates all survived. The neonatal stage is definitely the most likely stage to lose puppies. You can't compare newborn puppies to humans at all. Newborn puppies are born quite undeveloped comparatively. Likely that is part of the reason they are born into litters - to keep each other warm (they can't control their body temperature as neonatals) and to increase the chance that at least some will live to reproduce. 

Of course, lots of factors need to be considered when questioning why it seems hobby breeders have a harder time with their dog's reproduction than pet owners. The first is pretty obvious. Pet owners very often only have one litter out of their one dog. Hobby breeders often have multiple litters out of multiple females. More litters, by default means more of a chance that something will happen with one of them. 

The other issue that people often don't take into consideration is that reproductive health does have a strong genetic component. Pet owners generally won't pursue breeding their bitch if she can't easily get pregnant. If their bitch is a bad mother or the puppies fail to thrive, the litter will likely not live long enough to reproduce. Pet owners usually give up after experiences like that. The same generally holds true for wherever they got their dog - no great measures were taken to ensure the next generation out of the "line" made it into the gene pool. Hobby breeders sometimes go to great lengths to get puppies out of a certain dog or bitch. Bitches who are bad mothers are muzzled to allow puppies to nurse and otherwise kept away from them. Males who have low sex drives are collected from to ensure breedings take place. Bitches who won't stand to be bred are AI'd. Bitches who have a difficult time whelping or who's dams did are scheduled for c-sections. And puppies from such parents are kept for breeding. In some cases, there are very well bred dogs who have been reproducing by artificial means due to necessity for many generations.

And you can't discount human error as being responsible for some puppies deaths. If neonatal puppies get chilled, they die. If they get dehydrated, they die. Our dogs are not free to choose an appropriate place to have their puppies. We must ensure that where we want them to have their puppies is a safe and appropriate environment for them. Having the proper supplies on hand and knowing how and when to use them to treat things such as dehydration and diarrhea can mean the difference between life and death. Knowing the first signs of problems with neonatals can be the difference between life and death. Having to wait until the vet opens to take them in will usually be too late with very young pups. I have known very well meaning people who have lost a lot of puppies due to lack of knowledge and/or preparation. Had I had fluids on hand I might not have lost the 6 week old puppy. I certainly learned my lesson but what a very hard lesson it was, probably one of the worst nights of my life. There is also the possibility of human error on the vet's part. Doing c-sections at the wrong time, poorly performed c-sections, not catching problems with the puppies or the dam, etc.

Plenty of carelessly bred litters have problems, it's just people don't tend to be eagerly awaiting their arrival. When litters don't make it no one knows, other than the people directly involved.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Excellent points, Agile. Lots of things I hadn't considered.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have only lost 2 - jumped the gun on getting to the vets on one litter and she held back on a pup...the other was the only real problem litter I had - and just the opposite - one ER staff were being butt heads, so I went to anohter and we lost one pup - I count myself very very lucky to have had females - Alice, Kyra, Basha and Csabre who have been good mothers and who have all (so far KOW!!) whelped without intervention..


I have tried twice unsuccessfully for litters from frozen semen - I know the progesterone was too high on the one last spring - the first was just done so cavalierly by the vet - breed Monday on a Friday number!!! - that I think the whole thing was a cluster ....Hoping that the third time is the charm!!!!!!!!!

I did one fresh shipped chilled and got 6 pups - out of a first time dam at 5+ years old....did progesterone at time of breeding and it was 20.5 - vet said new protocal is 20-30 and she has gotten pups at 40.....but my spring was 45 and no pups....

As Chris says - TONS of money in trying this way....progesterone tests out the wazoo....surgical AI - the semen, the storage for years to get the right bitch...but if the litter you want happens - like the Amex commercial says - priceless....esp when you get your next generation females!

Lee


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Hobby breeders sometimes go to great lengths to get puppies out of a certain dog or bitch. Bitches who are bad mothers are muzzled to allow puppies to nurse and otherwise kept away from them. Males who have low sex drives are collected from to ensure breedings take place. Bitches who won't stand to be bred are AI'd. Bitches who have a difficult time whelping or who's dams did are scheduled for c-sections. And puppies from such parents are kept for breeding. In some cases, there are very well bred dogs who have been reproducing by artificial means due to necessity for many generations.


Except under the most compelling of circumstances these are shoddy breeding practices that inevitably undermine reproductive health & vigor. Breeding for the total bitch/dog includes selecting for fundamental sex, reproductive, maternal drives & abilities. 

I'm not unilaterally opposed to AI. Used appropriately it can be invaluable. Used to compensate for an innate lack of reproductive drives & abilities is just a bad bad idea. Ditto knowingly using bitches that are known to lack appropriate maternal instincts.

Something is seriously awry when dogs/bitches can't naturally breed, whelp, nurture. It's even sadder when such dogs/bitches are selected for breeding despite deficiencies in these most basic qualities.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I lean towards agreeing with you on that, RubyTuesday. I don't know enough about this to make a real judgement, but to my novice mind it seems like if a dog can't or won't breed, maybe it shouldn't breed.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

When I talked to Rayden's breeder recently, she remarked that this summer/fall had just been horrible for her and all the breeders she knows - not just GSDs, but other breeds as well.  She is active in the local GSD club as well as obedience, the animal shelter board, etc, so she knows almost all of the local breeders.
Breedings that didn't take, litters where there was only 1 or 2 pups, litters where at least 1 pup faded and died - all have been huge problems this summer. And the majority of these were proven bitches/studs, so there was no reason to expect a problem.
She said her vet (rural small town WV) told her that it was the same with cattle and horses this year.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

RubyTuesday said:


> Except under the most compelling of circumstances these are shoddy breeding practices that inevitably undermine reproductive health & vigor. Breeding for the total bitch/dog includes selecting for fundamental sex, reproductive, maternal drives & abilities.


 I do agree with this. There are times an AI is necessary due to distance or time but it should not be necessary because the bitch won't stand or the male isn't interested enough. I have seen bad mothers bred again because "maybe it was her age or experience". Nope - still tried to kill her puppies the second time around. Another factor which people don't consider is that small litter size can be a sign of reproductive problems.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We have a couple of bitches that only produce 4-5 puppy litters.
All puppies are usually born 1 1/4 - almost 2lbs. They usually whelp easily, and have a very good milk supply.
So...IMO...small litters do not equal fertility problems.(because of my own experiences)...HOWEVER;...bitches that do not conceive, or females having 1-2 puppies (that usually have larger, healthier litters)...would concern me that something is not right.
*And I do agree that there have been many more cases of (animals) having conception problems this past year (in general), than I have heard about in a long time.....makes you wonder?!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ruby Tuesday and Paula, I am in complete agreement with you two on your points. Hybrid vigor is a term that many people who breed don't understand, yet they are breeding because their dogs have titles and health checks...argwww! I see people breeding males that won't cover a female because the female intimidated the male....male shouldn't be bred in my opinion. Wouldn't be bred if it was in wild or even running with pack of domestic dogs. Nope warm and fuzzy us have deviated from masterplan of creation and think it will come out better because we want to reproduce things that shouldn't be reproduced in the breed. Some of our females are so skitzy that they should never be bred, but they have health checks and titles, so its responsible breeding. A good shepherd dog has very good "natural maternal" instincts, sure things occur like in breedings, but often the whole process has coddled the dogs to the point that the weak are not eliminated, they grow up and are bred,(because they have titles and certs), and then they have the process repeated and you look five generations down the line and you have dogs and females that have become reliant on humans for successful breedings. I know my view isn't popular bcause it exposes the humans treating dogs like humans. For families this is OK, for breeders there is a lost vigor, and understanding of practices and how they negatively impact the breed. Emotions are are terrible thing to use in dog breeding!!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It's particularly interesting to me to hear others comment about an increase in repro problems this past year. We experienced this ourselves, most notably with Raven's reabsorbtion of most of her litter. This is a bitch who produced 8 in her first litter and 12 in her second, so no fertility problems there. She was bred by AI this time around and that was the only difference to litters in the past. This was due to distance and no other reason, and since she had always been bred naturally in the past, and the stud also has many natural breedings under his belt, there is clearly no question of natural reproductive capacity with either. 

When we ultrasounded her, it showed 2 viable pups and 4-5 others in the process of being reabsorbed. Those 2 were born big and healthy, but we have no idea what happened to the others. Not something she'd ever done before obviously, she didn't undergo any stress during the pregnancy, was never ill, no real reason at all. Our repro vet, who is one of the best out there, commented that he didn't know why either but in the past few months he had been seeing lots of breeding issues with bitches failing to conceive and reabsorbing litters. Far more than would be considered normal and that he'd ever seen before in his career, and most often these were bitches who were proven breeders, like Ray, with no problems in the past. He also told me that in talking with other repro vets around the country, many had seen the same thing this year. And now I see 2 people on this thread mention it as well.

Very weird. Really leaves me wondering what the heck was going on with breeding dogs this year?!?!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> She was bred by AI this time around and that was the only difference to litters in the past.


While AI has a legitimate place in good breeding programs, I'm not convinced it's equivalent to natural breeding in terms of ideal results, ie pregnant bitches who carried to term & delivered the optimal # of sound healthy pups who were as long lived & healthy as those 'naturally produced'. 

My gut reaction is that all other things being equal, natural is better. This is solely based on the experiences of breeders I know & their experiences with AI. Over all those have been vastly fewer litters & smaller litters. I'm less certain, but I suspect there's also a greater # of resorbed &/or failure to thrive/survive pups. 

When the only difference is AI vs natural reproduction, that's not an insignificant difference, IMO. This is not a criticism of AI, which has it's place. Nor am I disparaging any particular breeding. Does AI reliably yield the same results as natural reproduction? Is it's success rate & the # of viable offspring equivalent to natural reproduction? At this point, I'm not convinced that it is.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> It's particularly interesting to me to hear others comment about an increase in repro problems this past year. We experienced this ourselves, most notably with Raven's reabsorbtion of most of her litter. This is a bitch who produced 8 in her first litter and 12 in her second, so no fertility problems there. She was bred by AI this time around and that was the only difference to litters in the past. This was due to distance and no other reason, and since she had always been bred naturally in the past, and the stud also has many natural breedings under his belt, there is clearly no question of natural reproductive capacity with either.
> 
> When we ultrasounded her, it showed 2 viable pups and 4-5 others in the process of being reabsorbed. Those 2 were born big and healthy, but we have no idea what happened to the others. Not something she'd ever done before obviously, she didn't undergo any stress during the pregnancy, was never ill, no real reason at all. Our repro vet, who is one of the best out there, commented that he didn't know why either but in the past few months he had been seeing lots of breeding issues with bitches failing to conceive and reabsorbing litters. Far more than would be considered normal and that he'd ever seen before in his career, and most often these were bitches who were proven breeders, like Ray, with no problems in the past. He also told me that in talking with other repro vets around the country, many had seen the same thing this year. And now I see 2 people on this thread mention it as well.
> 
> Very weird. *Really leaves me wondering what the heck was going on with breeding dogs this year?!?! *


 
okay as i dont understand breeding and will therefore NEVER breed, i do have a basic understanding and may be able to offer an explanation as to the reproduction issues. All the weather people out there say this year, this season in particular have been one of the toughest we've had in a few years weatherwise. Rain enough to flood places so bad that they normally may not have flooded before, snow so much cities have run out of places to put it except to block people in their driveways. Animals understand, feel and i personally believe can predict a great deal more than we may ever know. So would it be possible that ALL the breeding animals this past year or so have been.... i dunno.... i guess taking care of the situation to ensure either the best possible outcome for their babies and in some cases themselves? I mean its not unheard of. Animals can abort their fetus's if the weather isnt right or the food isnt plentiful. If there is the remote chance that reproducing would cause MORE problems in the natural order (so to speak), wouldnt it in a sense boil down to instincts? I mean animals who have large litters, it means more work in general. Thats an obvious. But animals are just that. Animals. They dont think the way we do. They could have 3 square meals a day but even with that knowledge in their minds, weather can still play a part. Heck, for all we know, the lunar cycle plays a part in it like it does with the ocean tides. Think about it. Studies have shown in the past that more women go into labor during a full moon than any other time of the month. Its something nobody has been able to fully explain. If something like that can happen with us, why wouldnt thinking the weather changes AKA a harder year weather wise cant be the case behind all the reproduction issues and deaths and whatnot? 

Animals have this knowledge about them that we can only slightly understand. Domestic or not, they still know things and adjust accordingly. Maybe i'm rambling but its just an idea. . .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

RubyTuesday said:


> While AI has a legitimate place in good breeding programs, I'm not convinced it's equivalent to natural breeding in terms of ideal results, ie pregnant bitches who carried to term & delivered the optimal # of sound healthy pups who were as long lived & healthy as those 'naturally produced'.
> 
> My gut reaction is that all other things being equal, natural is better. This is solely based on the experiences of breeders I know & their experiences with AI. Over all those have been vastly fewer litters & smaller litters. I'm less certain, but I suspect there's also a greater # of resorbed &/or failure to thrive/survive pups.
> 
> When the only difference is AI vs natural reproduction, that's not an insignificant difference, IMO. This is not a criticism of AI, which has it's place. Nor am I disparaging any particular breeding. Does AI reliably yield the same results as natural reproduction? Is it's success rate & the # of viable offspring equivalent to natural reproduction? At this point, I'm not convinced that it is.


Yep - Natural is more desirable for sure....you can get 2-4 live covers, with sperm that lives a normal span (3 to 5 days) and have a much much greater chance for a litter...with AI - (shipped cooled or frozen) it is extremely high risk, and you had better have your ducks in a row and a good vet! You have to pinpoint when the eggs are ready to fertilize - that means progesterone after progesterone - and if there is no on-site testing, and the vet estimates (like Dr. Hutchinson did with Fenja to Ufo) you don't get a litter. You buy semen, you store it, you hope you get enough for a back up breeding. If the semen is good (and it is) you only have a few hour window, as frozen semen does not have the same viability as natural cover.

Using AI is a choice due to several factors...as Chris mentioned, the male is just too far away to make traveling to him work. I won't ship my females to a stranger to breed. I did a fresh chilled and got 6 live, healthy pups from a female who was also from a litter of 6 and her mother was from a litter of 6! So I figure that was a normal sized litter for her. It was also the males last live litter, as he was deemed infertile the next year (after I had done another breeding to him!)

The male being old, infertile or dead is another reason! I managed to get Ufo semen when he was in his prime, he lived to be 15. Luckily - when I met Ufo, I made a deal to get more than one breeding's worth, knowing how difficult it is to get a litter. I also have Xito Maineiche semen - as my whole program revolves around daughters of these two dogs, both of whom have fantastic mother lines, and so far, they work well together as well. 

I would love to travel to Europe and do a breeding to a male I like there. But it is just not feasible. So shipped, or frozen semen is the alternative. Frankly, the gene pool in the US just is too limited for my taste...my bloodlines are a bit different than most, and not as easy to match up. 


*****************************

I did notice that this winter, the females took a LONG time to ovulate.....both seemed to start in heat and stop and wait for a week or so before starting again.....I know mares are hard to get to cycle in winter - Mother Nature wants those babies born when the weather is good - I just put it down to the same thing - MN stretching it so babies are born in better weather!

Lee


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> okay as i dont understand breeding and will therefore NEVER breed, i do have a basic understanding and may be able to offer an explanation as to the reproduction issues. All the weather people out there say this year, this season in particular have been one of the toughest we've had in a few years weatherwise. Rain enough to flood places so bad that they normally may not have flooded before, snow so much cities have run out of places to put it except to block people in their driveways. Animals understand, feel and i personally believe can predict a great deal more than we may ever know. So would it be possible that ALL the breeding animals this past year or so have been.... i dunno.... i guess taking care of the situation to ensure either the best possible outcome for their babies and in some cases themselves? I mean its not unheard of. Animals can abort their fetus's if the weather isnt right or the food isnt plentiful. If there is the remote chance that reproducing would cause MORE problems in the natural order (so to speak), wouldnt it in a sense boil down to instincts? I mean animals who have large litters, it means more work in general. Thats an obvious. But animals are just that. Animals. They dont think the way we do. They could have 3 square meals a day but even with that knowledge in their minds, weather can still play a part. Heck, for all we know, the lunar cycle plays a part in it like it does with the ocean tides. Think about it. Studies have shown in the past that more women go into labor during a full moon than any other time of the month. Its something nobody has been able to fully explain. If something like that can happen with us, why wouldnt thinking the weather changes AKA a harder year weather wise cant be the case behind all the reproduction issues and deaths and whatnot?
> 
> Animals have this knowledge about them that we can only slightly understand. Domestic or not, they still know things and adjust accordingly. Maybe i'm rambling but its just an idea. . .


 
Makes complete sense to me and like Lee mentioned, it can change their heat cycles, etc.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

KZoppa said:


> Studies have shown in the past that more women go into labor during a full moon than any other time of the month. Its something nobody has been able to fully explain.


We also saw that in horses and cattle. We used to have a saying, jokingly said, "full moon and empty uterus".


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Diabla used to have heat cycles every may and September. Last spring I waited for her to get into heat and out of it to be safe to spay her, but finally I spayed her in December and she has no hint of getting into heat. She skipped it completely.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

"I did notice that this winter, the females took a LONG time to ovulate.....both seemed to start in heat and stop and wait for a week or so before starting again.....I know mares are hard to get to cycle in winter - Mother Nature wants those babies born when the weather is good - I just put it down to the same thing - MN stretching it so babies are born in better weather!"

Thanks Lee, my bitch took until day 28 to ovulate this past cycle(her usual is day 12-14). Glad I am not the only one this happend to. I would attribute her small litter (4) to only doing one breeding, perhaps. She is one of 12 and had 8 in her first litter. Or maybe it was part of survival on mother natures part.


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