# Caesar Milan video? Eye contact/disobeying



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Two things that I have question on that seemed to be key to him in training the owners. One, which is to keep the excitement level down and don't introduce him to another dog when his excitement level is too high, that I understand. 

The other is when the owners were reunited both times after their pit had been away (at his dog training camp). For reintroduction back to the owners and the familiar yard, they were instructed not to make eye contact. Why?

My 9 mo old female GSD, in the last 2 mos seems to make constant eye contact with me. She has learned so much but has a long way to go. The one thing that's bothered me and I know now it's the most important thing, is when she's out in the yard and not an exercise time (just for potty). I will call her and she will stop whatever she's doing, lower her head and just stare at me. 

I treat trained her to come in the house this winter. I chose that method as opposed to the long lead because well, it seemed to work and it was easier than being out in 12 degrees at 3am with a long line. Now, I'm concerned that she is simply choosing not to come and the dropping of her head and the stare is pretty much saying to me "no, I'm not gonna come, what are you gonna do about it"? If I product a treat from my pocket, now, half the time, she still doesn't budge.

Am I reading this correctly? Is this a start to something worse like aggression? Why does she drop her head and freeze? Sometimes, she will lift one paw (means unsure?) I know this is something I need to get on right away and make the major focus. Any incite or method you could share would be much appreciated. Thank you!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cesar is all about the no eye contact or it will be a challenge to the dog....
your dog is probably staring at you when you call her in because she wants to engage you to come outside and play with her. 
Has she shown aggressive behavior with you? I wouldn't read too much into it, but I would make her come in when you call her, regardless of how she acts. If she doesn't then it is time to take some steps back in the training and up the nilif. Make sure she gets praised everytime she makes the right choices. 
Cesar's thinking is sometimes a bit over the top with dominating dogs and making them be so submissive. I hate seeing people think that tails tucked are a good thing when he's done with them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Other than this behaviour how is she behaved in general around the hose and on walks??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> cesar is all about the no eye contact or it will be a challenge to the dog....
> your dog is probably staring at you when you call her in because she wants to engage you to come outside and play with her.
> Has she shown aggressive behavior with you? I wouldn't read too much into it, but I would make her come in when you call her, regardless of how she acts. If she doesn't then it is time to take some steps back in the training and up the nilif. Make sure she gets praised everytime she makes the right choices.
> Cesar's thinking is sometimes a bit over the top with dominating dogs and making them be so submissive. I hate seeing people think that tails tucked are a good thing when he's done with them.


Thanks! I've heard about the dominance thing with his training method before. It's very possible and most likely she just wants me out to play and explore. She has never shown even mild irritation when I'm training her. I have really stepped up the training the last 6 weeks or so because she has matured and can concentrate sooo much better. She is so receptive right now to training. She loves it. So, do I need to do the long line? I can't see any other way at this point though I was hoping to avoid it. Never had this problem with any of my other dogs in the last 40 years.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

If this is accurate then you are simply dealing with as ony'girl...stubborn! Maybe it's a girl think?? I saw that look alot introtro spec with my Boxers...A#1 as breed in stubborn! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6683673-post15.html


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Other than this behaviour how is she behaved in general around the hose and on walks??


She's great around the house. A little pushy with her "wants" but now because of her age, I'm not afraid to put my "drill Sargent" hat on when needed and she responds quickly. She is quick to recover from any verbal correction and stays happy and light hearted.

Walks, working on. We got pretty trapped for winter. She needs lots of work. Got the prong and the Easy walk. We'll git'er'done.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> If this is accurate then you are simply dealing with as ony'girl...stubborn! Maybe it's a girl think?? I saw that look alot introtro spec with my Boxers...A#1 as breed in stubborn!
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6683673-post15.html


Hate to admit it, but it might be a "girl thing". Now that you mentioned it, I have been down this "stubborn" path before with a Strat Bull Terrier female I owned back in the 70's.

Not to say female dogs are stubborn bitches. Maybe just a little smarter than boy dogs as far as taking advantage of opportunities


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Got the prong and the Easy walk. We'll git'er'done.


????
I doubt you'll find any fans of "easy walk" here.  And the fact that you have both???

Says you don't really understand how to use a prong collar properly?? The "Easy Walk" take it back to where you got it!

The prong collar if that's what you chose to use, you should start here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

What I recommend and do with my dogs is the first video clip in this link:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Lol, Chip18. Stonevintage, I'm a fan of the EasyWalk, but I do agree if you want to use a tool it's best to pick one and stick to it. Using multiples at the same time (unless I misunderstand?) just tends to set different criteria for the dog depending on which one you employ and can be confusing. It also splits your focus if you're trying to operate multiple tools.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> ????
> I doubt you'll find any fans of "easy walk" here.  And the fact that you have both???
> 
> Says you don't really understand how to use a prong collar properly?? The "Easy Walk" take it back to where you got it!
> ...


I got the Herm Sprenger a month ago. I have only used it 2 times, not enough to even get the timing down exactly right yet. I watched more videos than you can shake a stick at before I purchased it. To me, it will be the one to use. I got the Sporn Halter today, brand new in the package at a thrift store for 2.50 (so if it's not for her, no biggie). I read about it today about how it corrects with the nerves that run under the arms rather than the neck trachea area. Do you see a difference? This is not the Easy walk that pulls their legs into an un natural position. It's the Sporn.

I was hoping to train her on the Herm Sprenger and move down to the Sporn and then finally, to the normal collar. Wrong thinking? Haven't seen any videos etc on "stepping down" on the Prong to the regular collar. Summer backed off on the pulling with the prong. The initial corrections worked like a dream, but then she just seemed to want to tough it out and pull anyway. I stopped her repeatedly on the walk to "reset her" and get slack for a proper correction when the time came, but shortly she ignored the corrections. ( and experienced coughing after use both times) but also picked right back up pulling hard with the regular collar, so I was thinking of transition with the Sporn if I can get the prong use down???


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I got the Herm Sprenger a month ago. I have only used it 2 times, not enough to even get the timing down exactly right yet. I watched more videos than you can shake a stick at before I purchased it. To me, it will be the one to use. I got the Sporn Halter today, brand new in the package at a thrift store for 2.50 (so if it's not for her, no biggie). I read about it today about how it corrects with the nerves that run under the arms rather than the neck trachea area. Do you see a difference? This is not the Easy walk that pulls their legs into an un natural position. It's the Sporn.
> 
> I was hoping to train her on the Herm Sprenger and move down to the Sporn and then finally, to the normal collar. Wrong thinking? Haven't seen any videos etc on "stepping down" on the Prong to the regular collar. Summer backed off on the pulling with the prong. The initial corrections worked like a dream, but then she just seemed to want to tough it out and pull anyway. I stopped her repeatedly on the walk to "reset her" and get slack for a proper correction when the time came, but shortly she ignored the corrections. ( and experienced coughing after use both times) but also picked right back up pulling hard with the regular collar, so I was thinking of transition with the Sporn if I can get the prong use down???


Eh, in my opinion it's just kind of going from one tool to the other. Not really stepping down. Whatever tool you use, the idea should be that it gives you the opportunity to manage and control your dog on walks so that you can focus on teaching it that its walk is most rewarding when done by your side. If you only focus on correcting the dog every time it gets out of place, you miss a huge piece of the puzzle - showing the dog not only what the right behavior is (the behavior that is not corrected) but also why that behavior is good (the value is built with food or toy or praise). 

I've seen people that have walked their dog on every tool available and the dog eventually just learns to ignore everything and keep pulling. It was always because they had put the tool on to manage the dog, but then left the training at that and seemed to be waiting for the dog to make the connection that it was supposed to walk by their side. Once I stepped in and made sure the dog saw that walking by my side was not just where they wouldn't get corrected, it was also specifically where any potential reward would happen, the dog walked beautifully.

I also suggest making sure you're using the time you have on the tool to teach strong cues for walking. When mine was on the EasyWalk as a puppy, the tool wasn't there to teach him to walk, it was to give me leverage so he wasn't leaning into the collar on his throat. The EasyWalk wasn't the training, my cues were the training. While he was on the management tool, he learned his Let's Go (we're going somewhere) This Way (we're changing direction) Easy (you're going too fast, slow down) Hurry Up (you're lagging, catch up) and his Wait (hold position until I call you). My transition from tool to flat collar wasn't about how well he walked on the tool, it was about how well he listened to leash cues.

Hopefully that makes sense and helps!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Sometimes I think Cesar says don't look to not challenge a dog. Sometimes I think it is to avoid the dog getting too excited when the owners look at it, and reverting to rambunctious behavior.

I personally love the easy walk. Only, I love it for specific scenarios. 

1. To walk my client's dogs. I have one lead on the harness, and have one on the collar, so they can not escape. Would hate to have a client's dog escape on me!

2. For walking my clients dog that is a "puller" but I am just being paid to board them and not to train. So I just do what I can so we can coexist and have peaceful walks without having to go through the whole process.

3. On captain because I can attach his doggy bags to it to carry.

4. On captain when I first got him, but wasn't prepared to teach him to walk by me yet, but needed to walk him for exercise.

Now captain still wears the easy walk from time to time, but not because he pulls. I have taught him to loose leash walk (a semi heel) on the easy walk harness, except I wasn't using the harness as part of the tool to teach him. I used my hand signals, voice, and touching. He walks wonderfully now, really learned fast. Except when he is really excited at the park and sees other dogs, we haven't gotten to that distraction yet, but I've only been training him on loose leash walking a handful of times so we need more practice. Even now when he gets excited, it just takes me a few seconds to redirect him then he calms down. So I think we will get to a perfect loose leash walk soon.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Makes big time education for me Pax. Thank you. I have to tell you, it would not have made much sense to me a couple of months ago, but now, I am getting her cooperation in most training and it is really making me want to get my part right as she is doing hers. Now to the part where I can consistently reinforce with her that obeying my commands on the leash are rewarding. She's so engaged with all the commotion and new stuff around her that "good girl" doesn't cut it. Hers will flick, but pretty much ignores after the first time or two.

She's a push over for treat training. She's a total toy fanatic. I could easily convert her from one to the other but the toy throws her into such a state of excitement, how is that useful on walks? How exactly do you reward with a toy on walks, let her carry it for a minute and then take it away? She's the type that would stop a first walk on the moon to play with a toy - nothing else exists to her when a toy is brought into our interaction.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Sometimes I think Cesar says don't look to not challenge a dog. Sometimes I think it is to avoid the dog getting too excited when the owners look at it, and reverting to rambunctious behavior.
> 
> I personally love the easy walk. Only, I love it for specific scenarios.
> 
> ...


I thought the Sporn halter was like the Easy Walk too until this afternoon when I watched a few Youtube instructional videos. The Sporn fits directly under the dogs armpits. It has sheepskin sleeves to prevent chafing. The principal is a pain correction just like the choke,prong,electric or any other collar.

It's not like the Easy Walk that causes the dogs legs to cross over. Apparently, there are a group of nerves in the dogs armpits that causes discomfort when compressed. This is the principal the Sporn halter works on. It works like a prong with 2 d rings that contracts for corrections if needed. So, I think if I did use it down the road, that I would quit using it as soon as possible.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I thought the Sporn halter was like the Easy Walk too until this afternoon when I watched a few Youtube instructional videos. The Sporn fits directly under the dogs armpits. It has sheepskin sleeves to prevent chafing. The principal is a pain correction just like the choke,prong,electric or any other collar.
> 
> It's not like the Easy Walk that causes the dogs legs to cross over. Apparently, there are a group of nerves in the dogs armpits that causes discomfort when compressed. This is the principal the Sporn halter works on. It works like a prong with 2 d rings that contracts for corrections if needed. So, I think if I did use it down the road, that I would quit using it as soon as possible.


Quit using the easy walk or the sporn?


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Makes big time education for me Pax. Thank you. I have to tell you, it would not have made much sense to me a couple of months ago, but now, I am getting her cooperation in most training and it is really making me want to get my part right as she is doing hers. Now to the part where I can consistently reinforce with her that obeying my commands on the leash are rewarding. She's so engaged with all the commotion and new stuff around her that "good girl" doesn't cut it. Hers will flick, but pretty much ignores after the first time or two.
> 
> She's a push over for treat training. She's a total toy fanatic. I could easily convert her from one to the other but the toy throws her into such a state of excitement, how is that useful on walks? How exactly do you reward with a toy on walks, let her carry it for a minute and then take it away? She's the type that would stop a first walk on the moon to play with a toy - nothing else exists to her when a toy is brought into our interaction.


Treat training is always fine by me for walks as long as you do a good job of fading the food reward when she gets the behavior down. I'm big on my classes about fading food rewards. High rates of reinforcement to start, then they convert to a random reward schedule as they get loose leash walking more than half the time. Once they can depend on the dog to loose leash walk 95% of the time in a certain situation, the food gets faded out completely and redirection cleans up the last of the issues while the big time food rewards are then reserved for a higher criteria like walking while there are big distractions.

If she's super toy motivated, you may have to clean up your toy interaction before using it for a walk. I had to do that with mine because he would want to jump, bark, and be crazy if there was the chance for a toy. For walks, I always suggest something you can keep a handle on (like a fleece tug or ball on a rope) so you don't have a tennis ball rolling away into a street and a dog trying to run after it. I started out play interaction at home and built a structure. My "yes" mark starts the play, we play, we "out" and then he must calm down and follow a simple command (a sit, down, focus, heel position, etc). The first few sessions took a while for him to calm down enough to focus on what I was asking. It was probably 8 minutes of standing there with my hand in the sit cue while he tried to calm down enough to do what he needed to do. But once he sat then it was "yes" and play. Then "out" and cue. Once he figured out he could turn play on by following cues, his focus was all on me and he calmed down faster and faster until my "yes" and "out" are like excitement on/off switches. We started off with easy stuff, then I started asking for more or harder behaviors. 

When I was getting some good attention and more than one behavior, we moved on to leash walking. I'd start the walk and when he was in a good reward spot (my relative heel position) I'd "yes" mark and we'd stop and play. Then we'd "out" and continue the walk. If I needed to (if he was being jumpy or barky after outing instead of going into the walk with me), I'd stand still and wait for him to calm down before attempting to start the walk again. Once I could get him moving without circling in front of me, bumping me for the toy, or barking at me, I'd look for that relative position again, mark, stop and reward with play. After a few times, he makes the connection between the position and the reward. In my experience, once the dog starts seeking the position, the hardest part is done. After that, it's just building the length and duration of the behavior over time.

When I could get all the way down the block and reward at the end of my block, I started randomizing the reward schedule. Sometimes he would get it after two steps, sometimes after a block, sometimes after a half block. So the difficulty was not always getting harder and he didn't anticipate the reward only comes at the end of the distance we're working on.

-So reward structure first - mark has earned the reward and play starts, "out" or other cue like "enough" or "that's it" ends play, but leaves the opportunity to earn more play by following cues open.
-Learn relative position and work on teaching the dog to seek it out by rewarding dog's attempts to find it (swinging into your side, backing up into position, or moving from in front of or behind you into the side position you want the dog to be in). 
-Work up length and duration of behavior.

So that's the basics of how I set up toy reward for loose leash walking.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> but then she just seemed to want to tough it out and pull anyway. I stopped her repeatedly on the walk to "reset her" and get slack for a proper correction when the time came, but shortly she ignored the corrections. ( and experienced coughing after use both times) but also picked right back up pulling hard with the regular collar, so I was thinking of transition with the Sporn if I can get the prong use down???











What your are describing sounds "exactly like what I did with Gunther! BullMastiff/APBT/Lab and he was the "only" dog I have ever dealt with that did not walk on leash well...off leash fine but on leash ahh,NO! And I kept putting the prong collar on him because hey that is what I do with him because...he pulls!:blush:

I had actually learned better!! Not one of my other dogs pulled and they and every dog I have handled, I trained on a loose leash! But with Gunther I had a blind spot! Ten years of that, if you use a prong wrong...your done! 

My last word on it...I always say if you use a prong collar and it doesn't look like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrrQJto8xJU

then don't use it!

I still highly recommend the "Loose leash training" clip. To me "tools" are a filter between you and your dog! Train your dog with "loose leash" and you will gain a better understanding of how to communicate with your dog! Get that done and everything going forward from that point would be easier!

I've walked dogs that have "never" seen a leash in there lives (it's NV so...yeah) and dogs at rescue that were said to pull like a freight train! And dogs running loose that I rounded up for there owners. In all those cases if 
anyone had seen those dogs walking...they would have sworn they were, well trained house pets! 

But if you chose "not" to do the "loose leash training" and the your choice is between the two "tools" you have?

It would be better for you and your dog to use the other..."thing" right than to use the prong wrong!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> Lol, Chip18. Stonevintage, I'm a fan of the EasyWalk,


From the 'Sit means Sit" thread I "learned" that it doesn't serve the greater good for people that "know what they are doing" to argue with each other.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> From the 'Sit means Sit" thread I "learned" that it doesn't serve the greater good for people that "know what they are doing" to argue with each other.


Haha, I'm not planning on arguing with you. I completely agree that it gets us nowhere to try to argue about our respective methods. I'd much rather we both find things that work for both us and our dogs and instead use the forum to post funny pictures and stories.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

I would also like to mention that the first time I trained to loose leash walk was AFTER I tired captain out playing fetch at the park. Now when I train him he doesn't necessarily need to be tired. It is just that if you want to train a dog to heel or loose leash walk, it is going to be a lot harder if they have been bored and cooped up in the house for days, and this is the first time you are taking them out in ages,MIT probably won't be as easy as it can be. Always set your dog up to succeed!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Got it Pax. I have the perfect toy. Ball on a 12"lead with a loop handle. This she sits and releases to me in the yard and I can have her sit/laydown, whatever when she is in the yard. I can, on walks just give it to her for "tugs" for a short time b4 having her "release" and I'll put it back in my left pocket (side I want her to heel on, I'm a lefty). I can store it in different places when she's walking, but she will only get the toy when she's on my left and not pulling. Then extend the reward time to convert her to verbal only. Starting tomorrow to get the backyard skills really firm with this toy, then - we shall conquer the world! You're awesome!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I would also like to mention that the first time I trained to loose leash walk was AFTER I tired captain out playing fetch at the park. Now when I train him he doesn't necessarily need to be tired. It is just that if you want to train a dog to heel or loose leash walk, it is going to be a lot harder if they have been bored and cooped up in the house for days, and this is the first time you are taking them out in ages,MIT probably won't be as easy as it can be. Always set your dog up to succeed!


That comes under my "nothing I ever thought about" but yep!


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I would also like to mention that the first time I trained to loose leash walk was AFTER I tired captain out playing fetch at the park. Now when I train him he doesn't necessarily need to be tired. It is just that if you want to train a dog to heel or loose leash walk, it is going to be a lot harder if they have been bored and cooped up in the house for days, and this is the first time you are taking them out in ages,MIT probably won't be as easy as it can be. Always set your dog up to succeed!


Very true! The toy reward while walking worked well for me because we used a lot of tug, so it tired him out while we walked and in the first 10 minutes of the walk, I usually used a pretty high rate of reinforcement, both to tire him out and to encourage immediate attention when starting a walk rather than wrestling with him for 10 minutes until he "settled" into the walk. But when he was much younger, I often whipped the flirt pole around in the backyard for 5 or 10 minutes before putting a leash on him. Takes the "edge" off so they're easier to manage from the get-go!


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Got it Pax. I have the perfect toy. Ball on a 12"lead with a loop handle. This she sits and releases to me in the yard and I can have her sit/laydown, whatever when she is in the yard. I can, on walks just give it to her for "tugs" for a short time b4 having her "release" and I'll put it back in my left pocket (side I want her to heel on, I'm a lefty). I can store it in different places when she's walking, but she will only get the toy when she's on my left and not pulling. Then extend the reward time to convert her to verbal only. Starting tomorrow to get the backyard skills really firm with this toy, then - we shall conquer the world! You're awesome!


:blush: Good luck!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I would also like to mention that the first time I trained to loose leash walk was AFTER I tired captain out playing fetch at the park. Now when I train him he doesn't necessarily need to be tired. It is just that if you want to train a dog to heel or loose leash walk, it is going to be a lot harder if they have been bored and cooped up in the house for days, and this is the first time you are taking them out in ages,MIT probably won't be as easy as it can be. Always set your dog up to succeed!


Yes, found that out the hard way couple of months ago. Summer gets afternoon walks when we've had at least 3 ball playing sessions and she's bored of the backyard and 1 hour after her afternoon meal. I've noticed a huge difference too, when we're walking thru the neighborhood, she doesn't pull half as hard than if we are walking on a busy street. How do you manage a calm demeanor with your dog walk clients? They've got to be the opposite of calm and mellow when you pick them up.

She will however, spend much time with me walking on streets that are busy and so I'm continuing to expose her to it so she does not become fearful. She's a little stressed at all the noise but not overly so at all. I can only tell from the little extra pull on the leash. Loud trucks and traffic don't phase her and I know I need to continue regular exposure to keep it that way. Not long walks on the busy streets, just 10 minutes or so, we will work our way up to longer when I feel her trust in me and the environment.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Yes, found that out the hard way couple of months ago. Summer gets afternoon walks when we've had at least 3 ball playing sessions and she's bored of the backyard and 1 hour after her afternoon meal. I've noticed a huge difference too, when we're walking thru the neighborhood, she doesn't pull half as hard than if we are walking on a busy street. How do you manage a calm demeanor with your dog walk clients? They've got to be the opposite of calm and mellow when you pick them up.
> 
> She will however, spend much time with me walking on streets that are busy and so I'm continuing to expose her to it so she does not become fearful. She's a little stressed at all the noise but not overly so at all. I can only tell from the little extra pull on the leash. Loud trucks and traffic don't phase her and I know I need to continue regular exposure to keep it that way. Not long walks on the busy streets, just 10 minutes or so, we will work our way up to longer when I feel her trust in me and the environment.


So far I have more dog boarding clients than boarding/training. When I have dogs that are rambunctious on walks and pulling, I make it a rule to not enforce my training because I am not getting paid for it, not trying to sound greedy but *shrug*. Normally I have clients that will drop off a dog for strictly boarding and say "by the way, when you walk them, they pull really hard so we have this prong collar". In cases like those, I play with them but at home. Then remove prong collar, and swap it out With an easy walk and a flat collar that is wide. Along with two leashes. 1. They are not escaping from me. 2. They are not pulling as hard and I can manage a walk. They are by no means trained, but at least I can walk them till the owner's come back. 

Other than that, I think I have been lucky, haven't had any clients that walk too crazy or are too amped up yet. It also helps, I never walk them on the first day I get them. I don't know enough about them at that point and need to observe and learn their behaviors. Once I feel comfortable I will start walking them. I did have a client once (she is coming back soon) that will stop mid walk and will not budge. She would drag if I tried to drag her. In a case like this I go back to her and run with her the opposite direction, then when we have a good pace I'll turn back around making kissy noises and she follows. Crisis averted!

I'm not sure if this answered your question, think I kind of went off on a tangent haha.


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