# Need snappier obedience...how?



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Stella knows many commands. And if I have a high value food in my hand she can be very quick and focused. Or if we are playing ball. Or if we are out for a walk and we are training. But for the run of the mill "sit" or whatever....a lot of times she either sits very s..l..o...w...l...y, or she just stands there. How do I get her to sit NOW when I say sit? Just would like her response to be snappier.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I find outside of food and toys that enthusiasm works very well also. When we're out for a walk I am more animated then usual, quicker commands and happy voice usually gets me snappier obedience


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Hans does this, too.

I was told that at this age, if he does this s l o w l y, he doesn't care enough, and needs to be corrected. Put him on a prong, issue the command once, and if he doesn't comply, give a correction. 

I just received the prong and put it on him today.

Wish me luck.:crazy:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Build her drive...if you build her drive, the speed will come. 

If you correct her for being slow, she may start to resent it. Find her highest value treat/toy. Give her the command, if she hesitates, No/Oops and repeat the command. Don't reward her for being slow to respond.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Build her drive...if you build her drive, the speed will come.
> 
> If you correct her for being slow, she may start to resent it. Find her highest value treat/toy. Give her the command, if she hesitates, No/Oops and repeat the command. Don't reward her for being slow to respond.


Michelle, here is what is going on here.

He will sit for the ball, but it is as if on hydraulics. He has a very hard time watching me instead of the ball. He will glance from my face to the ball, and back and forth. 
And it *is* the highest value toy. 

Repeating the command does not work.

Do you suggest putting the ball away instead of a prong correction? What? :help:


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Hans does this, too.
> 
> I was told that at this age, if he does this s l o w l y, he doesn't care enough, and needs to be corrected. Put him on a prong, issue the command once, and if he doesn't comply, give a correction.
> 
> ...


I tried that, for Delgado the prong correction gets the job done but it is more of a "oh fine" mentality. Personally I want the dog responding out of willingness to please 

Try it and see how it works


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Personally I want the dog responding out of willingness to please


So, how did you get him to do what you said quickly?

I would love to have this happen, but it's not.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Build her drive...if you build her drive, the speed will come.
> 
> If you correct her for being slow, she may start to resent it. Find her highest value treat/toy. Give her the command, if she hesitates, No/Oops and repeat the command. Don't reward her for being slow to respond.


This exactly! High value treats or toys or whatever builds her drive the most and nothing in life is free. Your enthusiasm will build her excitement to do the correct command fast as well. If you aren't tired after a training session, you didn't get enthusiastic enough.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> So, how did you get him to do what you said quickly?
> 
> I would love to have this happen, but it's not.


Enthusiasm, when I'm perky and excited he responds faster. As backups I have a small squeaky in my pocket and the prong. I use the prong as a last resort 

Not every dog is the same though, you have to find what works best for you and your dog


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> Enthusiasm, when I'm perky and excited he responds faster. As backups I have a small squeaky in my pocket and the prong. I use the prong as a last resort
> 
> Not every dog is the same though, you have to find what works best for you and your dog


Thank you, Shanna.

I took the prong off.

I gave the command with a lot more energy and sharpness and he responded perfectly.

I love you guys. Thank you!:wild:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Jax08
> Build her drive...if you build her drive, the speed will come.
> 
> If you correct her for being slow, she may start to resent it. Find her highest value treat/toy. Give her the command, if she hesitates, No/Oops and repeat the command. Don't reward her for being slow to respond.





pyratemom said:


> This exactly! High value treats or toys or whatever builds her drive the most and nothing in life is free. Your enthusiasm will build her excitement to do the correct command fast as well. *If you aren't tired after a training session, you didn't get enthusiastic enough*.


I agree. I also have my dog drive into me for the reward after I've marked the position. IF there is a correction, build that drive back up(I do it with tug) and get back into obedience. 
Food rewards are great for teaching/ but it doesn't usually keep the drive level up like a toy. 
Agree with the tired comment, too adding in sore!! My shoulders and legs have been killing me from running & tugging.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Get the reward off of you.
One way to do this is to have a bowl with treats sitting beside you. I keep mine on top of the TV. Give "sit" cue, mark, then reach in and grab a treat.
Gradually move farther away. Always mark... then run to the treat together.
.... one of the strengths of clicker training, done correctly.

and the same can be done with a high value toy. Mine often sits on the field and the dog goes to get it when I mark/release.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

start training again. train with her on a leash. give the command
and make her do it. praise and treat. slowly phase out the treat
or cut back. the happy animated praise voice is good and you 
always have it with you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

katdog5911 said:


> Stella knows many commands. And if I have a high value food in my hand she can be very quick and focused. Or if we are playing ball. Or if we are out for a walk and we are training. But for the run of the mill "sit" or whatever....a lot of times she either sits very s..l..o...w...l...y, or she just stands there. How do I get her to sit NOW when I say sit? Just would like her response to be snappier.


When you're training with food is the food always in your hand? Food is in my hand for luring ONLY, and I only lure as long as I absolutely have to. With a new puppy that's the first or second brief session with any new command, and then I get the food out of that hand and use the lure motion (which will be gradually faded to something more subtle, becoming my hand signal for that behavior), rewarding from the other hand. 

The problem with having food in your hand too long is that it becomes a secondary cue, and the dog only responds when they see it. That very well could be what's happening here. She sees food, she knows how to get it. She doesn't see food, why does she need to bother doing what you ask. There are two different approaches you could use to fix this. One is to never have visible food on you, and surprise her by getting it from somewhere nearby. It could be on a a counter or table up out of view, or in a cabinet, and you can run there together (be upbeat - happy and enthusiastic with your praise as you do this), and get her a treat. My dogs no longer get treats for routine stuff because they are expected to know the rules and comply with them, but occasionally if they are extra special good, like if they remain in a down stay on the rug while I open the door to retrieve a package, I make a big deal about it: "yay, good dogs get treats!!!" and get them something yummy out of the cabinet. 

The other approach, which is what I do when I'm training a new puppy, is to wear my treat bag ALL the time. So they learn that just because I have food on me, that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get some, in the way that the approach above means that just because I DON'T have food on me doesn't mean they WON'T get any. 

It also sounds like she knows the difference between "training" and "not training". Blur that line. Start incorporating real world rewards into daily life by requiring something from her for everything, such as a sit and eye contact for being released to eat after you set down her food bowl, before putting on the leash for a walk, before opening the door to go out, before getting into the car and getting out of the car, before giving her a bone or bully stick. Make obedience "work" to get everything she values. The faster that sit, the faster she gets what she wants. If she doesn't sit promptly use a negative (AKA "no reward") marker such as "oops!", turn around and walk away and ignore her for a minute or two, then try again.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sunflowers said:


> I was told that at this age, if he does this s l o w l y, he doesn't care enough, and needs to be corrected. Put him on a prong, issue the command once, and if he doesn't comply, give a correction.


That would not be my favorite way to train.  I agree with Michelle and Jane, build his drive to work with you. Increase your energy and enthusiasm if he's flat. If he's not complying he either hasn't fully learned and generalized the command to new and distracting situations (even if you think he has), or he hasn't figured out why he should care. Change his attitude by making training faster and more fun. Simply correcting him for not complying quickly enough isn't going to make him want to work with you. I have no problem with corrections, but my preference will always be dogs that comply because they want to rather than because they have to. I can always add the "have to" later, after I've shown them why it's in their best interest to do what I want. 



Sunflowers said:


> He will sit for the ball, but it is as if on hydraulics. He has a very hard time watching me instead of the ball. He will glance from my face to the ball, and back and forth.
> And it *is* the highest value toy.


I'm confused - is he sitting for the ball, or is the ball the reward for doing the sit? I think I'd separate ball play from formal training for a bit, and work on ignoring the ball and looking at you (bringing out the ball becomes a default cue to "watch") by itself. Go someplace where you can play ball. Hold the ball out to the side and wait for him to stop staring at in and look at you - even a split second of eye contact - mark it and immediately throw the ball. Do this until he's barely glancing at the ball, then up the ante to 2 or 3 seconds of eye contact before marking and rewarding. If he looks away you can use a negative marker (or not, it's up to you), and time starts over when he looks back at you. As you build duration you can use praise to keep him going and let him know that he's doing good, maybe up to 10 seconds before marking and rewarding. You could also use a ball on a rope and tug with him instead of throwing it, if that's something he enjoys. 

Now you've got him happy and ready to work when he sees that ball come out, and you can start using it as a training reward.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm confused - is he sitting for the ball, or is the ball the reward for doing the sit? I think I'd separate ball play from formal training for a bit, and work on ignoring the ball and looking at you (bringing out the ball becomes a default cue to "watch") by itself. Go someplace where you can play ball. Hold the ball out to the side and wait for him to stop staring at in and look at you - even a split second of eye contact - mark it and immediately throw the ball. Do this until he's barely glancing at the ball, then up the ante to 2 or 3 seconds of eye contact before marking and rewarding. If he looks away you can use a negative marker (or not, it's up to you), and time starts over when he looks back at you. As you build duration you can use praise to keep him going and let him know that he's doing good, maybe up to 10 seconds before marking and rewarding. You could also use a ball on a rope and tug with him instead of throwing it, if that's something he enjoys.
> 
> Now you've got him happy and ready to work when he sees that ball come out, and you can start using it as a training reward.


That is a really well explained way to work through the "I can't think straight because there is my ball" stage.

Does your dog give eye contact? If the ball is "too much" teach it with food. Have treats in your outstretched hands, or behind your back, or in a bowl. As soon as the dog glances at your face, mark and then reward, changing up hands. Then ask for direct eye contact, then longer eye contact, then from different positions (front, heel, etc.)

For dogs who are really cuckoo-for-cocoa-puffs over their toy, teaching with food first is a very helpful stage.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gagsd said:


> That is a really well explained way to work through the "I can't think straight because there is my ball" stage.
> 
> Does your dog give eye contact? If the ball is "too much" teach it with food. Have treats in your outstretched hands, or behind your back, or in a bowl. As soon as the dog glances at your face, mark and then reward, changing up hands. Then ask for direct eye contact, then longer eye contact, then from different positions (front, heel, etc.)
> 
> For dogs who are really cuckoo-for-cocoa-puffs over their toy, teaching with food first is a very helpful stage.


I actually did this with food rather than a ball! I've never had a dog that wasn't food motivated, but Halo took it to a whole new level. :wild: So, I made ignoring food work for her to get what she wanted - basically I exploited that high food drive to use as a training tool. Now, with both my dogs I can have a bully stick in each hand, the absolutely highest value thing they ever get, and they will either sit or down immediately and stare at me intently until I release them and hand it over. I don't have to say a word because the sight of a bully stick is the cue for eye contact. I can hold the sticks right up to their noses, I can wave them around their heads and they won't budge. They know all they have to do is wait and they'll get it, but if they try to take it before being released, they won't. It took awhile to build up to this level, but now it's bombproof.

I didn't use toy rewards as much as I wish I had, because it wasn't something I learned how to do until later, but we do the same thing with the ball at the park - sit and making eye contact until released "makes" us throw it for them.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Yep, it works wonders and takes away the need for a lot of yank and crank. Corrections in of of themselves are not bad, but it is like squeezing a tube of toothpaste with holes.... You may nip one thing but it is bound to show up in another place.

I think for really toy motivated dogs.... it makes it better to teach at a "lower" food drive level. My own fuzzy puppy I have to feed before we train as her food drive is too much. She can't think straight.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> *Enthusiasm, when I'm perky and excited he responds faster.* As backups I have a small squeaky in my pocket and the prong. I use the prong as a last resort


Exactly! I was just showing my trainer Jax's difference responses based on my tone of voice. She said it takes TWO to maintain drive. Not her exact words but the basic idea. 

If YOU aren't excited and interesting, don't expect your dog to be. 

And depending on what I'm doing, I'll switch rewards. If she's to into the toy, I drop it and give her treats to get her focus back. Sometimes I just stop and work on her eye contact with me. Anything to re-engage her brain.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Yes, enthusiasm and leadership. My dog seems to react to the level of attention I am giving the situation. Also, break things down to discrete components and focus on each component.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I was trying to get away from all the food....

And she is quite "snappy" when she wants to be. I imagine sometimes we even look impressive But if she doesn't at that moment care about something I have, or something she wants me to do....it is s..l..o..w.. response time. Even my happy voice doesn't do it then. She just looks at me with an "eh, been there done that" look and then eventually will sit down. 

I don't have only formal training times. I just do stuff throughout the day. 
And toys are ok, but she is not overly enthused about any. Except maybe her jolly ball. And that is a bit large to be carrying around all over. Even that is only good up to a point. I would love to find a tug that she really likes. So far she likes tug with the jolly ball best. I have more types of tugs.....:smirk: And it really isn't that easy to tug with a jolly ball.....Wish I could find one that she is over the moon about.

The prong works for correcting her when we are out walking and she starts to get ready to go into dog reactive mode. A couple of quick "fuss" commands, sit commands and lots of turns with a pop for non compliance work well. But the prong doesn't really have a great affect for her slow mode....


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Spend more time building drive. Less time giving commands. Keep training sessions very short. No more than maybe three command requests per excersize. End the session when dog is peaking in drive. 

Next session the dog will come into drive faster. 

Eventually the obedience will come quick even with no drive building because the dog is always hungrier for more interaction.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

robk said:


> Spend more time building drive. Less time giving commands. Keep training sessions very short. No more than maybe three command requests per excersize. End the session when dog is peaking in drive.
> 
> Next session the dog will come into drive faster.
> 
> Eventually the obedience will come quick even with no drive building because the dog is always hungrier for more interaction.


Can you explain in more detail?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

katdog5911 said:


> Can you explain in more detail?


I keep trying to answer your question but my dog is pushing me to play with him. 

I really think that we spend too much time bossing our dogs around which makes them resistant kind of like a teen age boy. The more I ordering my 14 year old son around the less he wants to do. It's the same with our dogs. Spend a lot of time paying with them and let them be kind of wild. End your play time when your dog is having the most fun. Leave him/her wanting more. Incorporate a few obedience commands very sparingly. Reward immediately for after compliance. Keep it fun then end it. When not playing with your dog, be aloof with him/her. Watch what happens; your dog will start watching your every move looking for a chance to interact with you.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

robk said:


> When not playing with your dog, be aloof with him/her. Watch what happens; your dog will start watching your every move looking for a chance to interact with you.


I think this is extremely important, and this is where most of us go wrong, so to speak.


What I would like to do is hug him constantly, pet him constantly, give him all the love and kisses i want to give, give him free treats, and spoil him rotten.
Unfortunately, I think this leads to very badly behaved German Shepherds. 

So, as someone once wisely advised on this board, I do my best to be a benevolent dictator. This is so hard for me, but I do it.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

robk said:


> I keep trying to answer your question but my dog is pushing me to play with him.
> 
> I really think that we spend too much time bossing our dogs around which makes them resistant kind of like a teen age boy. The more I ordering my 14 year old son around the less he wants to do. It's the same with our dogs. Spend a lot of time paying with them and let them be kind of wild. End your play time when your dog is having the most fun. Leave him/her wanting more. Incorporate a few obedience commands very sparingly. Reward immediately for after compliance. Keep it fun then end it. When not playing with your dog, be aloof with him/her. Watch what happens; your dog will start watching your every move looking for a chance to interact with you.


Interesting. Never really thought about this.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

robk said:


> I keep trying to answer your question but my dog is pushing me to play with him.
> 
> I really think that we spend too much time bossing our dogs around which makes them resistant kind of like a teen age boy. The more I ordering my 14 year old son around the less he wants to do. It's the same with our dogs. Spend a lot of time paying with them and let them be kind of wild. End your play time when your dog is having the most fun. Leave him/her wanting more. Incorporate a few obedience commands very sparingly. Reward immediately for after compliance. Keep it fun then end it. When not playing with your dog, be aloof with him/her. Watch what happens; your dog will start watching your every move looking for a chance to interact with you.


I wrote this from my iphone with my dog pushing my hand. I just re-read it from my desk top and can't believe all the typos.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

robk said:


> I wrote this from my iphone with my dog pushing my hand. I just re-read it from my desk top and can't believe all the typos.


I never saw any typos. Maybe this is why

Take a look at this paragraph. Can you read what it says? All the letters have been jumbled (mixed). Only the first and last letter of each word is in the right place:

I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I never saw any typos. Maybe this is why
> 
> Take a look at this paragraph. Can you read what it says? All the letters have been jumbled (mixed). Only the first and last letter of each word is in the right place:
> 
> I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.


Crazy! I read it no problem. So I gseus I sltil need to fgriue out how to get a spinaepr rpnseose form Seltla!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

robk said:


> I really think that we spend too much time bossing our dogs around.
> 
> When not playing with your dog, be aloof with him/her. Watch what happens; your dog will start watching your every move looking for a chance to interact with you.


 I just wanted to come back and say this was very helpful.

He is now sitting and looking at me intently, while I ignore him, holding the ball. I no longer even have to tell him to sit. 
After a good few seconds, I throw it. It's fantastic. We are both happy!

As I always say, most problems with GSDs are caused by owner error.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I see higher drive in my dog if we don't train for a couple or few days. He wants to work/play and if I'm too busy or whatever, he is "ON" when we have the next training session. Sometimes giving the dog a short break is a wonderful benefit!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I wonder if we should start a thread and discuss overtraining. Many of us, especially with young dogs, are so afraid that they will become untrained behavioral messes that we might be overdoing it


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It depends on the dog, my dog has a great off switch and turns on nice, but I need to really work(physically) to make him shine. So building and keeping his drive level up is paying off with the obedience. If I'm flat/ so is he.

Some dogs need daily obedience or an outlet for all their energy...to give that dog a day off may be detrimental. 
What I see often is the mental exercise benefit over some of the physical. When a dog has to mentally work I think it brings balance into their energy level even if they haven't run themselves ragged. 
Every training session I do has my dog thinking and that is the goal!


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## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I wonder if we should start a thread and discuss overtraining. Many of us, especially with young dogs, are so afraid that they will become untrained behavioral messes that we might be overdoing it


I think this is great idea. I do worry about my boy beeing bored with my training and i do try to push him to fast.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Work on engagement, if the dog is totally into it the moves will be done crisply. Instead of just "let them be puppies" I think you can guide them in a fun way. I agree that most newbies who are trying to do it right overdo it= me.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

It's hard to be aloof....I just want to cuddle and tickle her belly or ears all the time! But I have to say, I tried it and she wouldn't leave me alone.


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