# ...but in the the end, it all worked out.



## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

I need to hear some stories of poorly-behaved GSDs who have turned out well. 

This 9 month old GSD we adopted 2 weeks ago is about to give me a breakdown. His former owner talked a lot about how well trained the dog was. Turns out, the dog can sit and lie (sometimes) and that's about all. Can't walk on a leash. Bites when he's excited. Mouthy all the time. Jumps up on people. Won't drop toys when asked. And so on. 

So he needs training. I get it. He's an adolescent--a really huge puppy. The only dog I've trained was a real puppy when I began, so I could physically handle her as I was training. This dog is about 80 lbs and I just can't do it. I'm 110 and not especially athletic. 

This may be a part of the problem, actually. His previous owner, who encouraged him to be mouthy, was a college guy with a deep voice, built like a linebacker. I'm pretty sure this dog doesn't see me as the boss.

He gets excited & bites during exercise time. ("Play biting," according to various websites, but it still hurts.) People say to use a muzzle hold. Are they kidding? I can't catch that mouth flying around all over the place, jumping up and dodging in circles--and even if I could catch it, I couldn't fit my hand around it for a muzzle hold!

Yesterday I was trying to adjust a toy for him to play with, and he grabbed a hold of it to pull it out of my hand and refused to let go. I was tired of his "playful" bullying so I refused to let to. This resulted in 45 MINUTES of his pulling on the toy. 45 minutes of an 80 lb. GSD pulling with all his might! I was hanging onto a fence post, and so angry I could have chewed nails. I finally managed to snatch it from him as he adjusted his grip, and hurled it over the fence so he couldn't get it. Today, of course, I'm so sore I can hardly lift my 2-year-old.

So I've got to figure out some kind of training program for him. Probably with treats & a clicker for aversion, since he doesn't seem to like clickers. And some way to exercise him without his getting too excited. In short, some way to assert my authority without resorting to physical strength.

Anyone ever done that? Please tell me some stories with happy endings! I need to go into this with some confidence!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Get help from a trainer.Virtually all adolescent Gsds are going to act like fools if they are allowed to.You spent 45 minutes rewarding and encouraging your dog's behavior by trying to tug the toy away.You aren't grasping the concept of clicker training at all.Please get some help!You really need someone there to show you how to get him under control.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

faith5 said:


> So he needs training.


Yup. Since you already know this and are working towards that...you'll be fine.






faith5 said:


> Yesterday I was trying to adjust a toy for him to play with, and he grabbed a hold of it to pull it out of my hand and refused to let go. I was tired of his "playful" bullying so I refused to let to. This resulted in 45 MINUTES of his pulling on the toy. 45 minutes of an 80 lb. GSD pulling with all his might! I was hanging onto a fence post, and so angry I could have chewed nails. I finally managed to snatch it from him as he adjusted his grip, and hurled it over the fence so he couldn't get it. Today, of course, I'm so sore I can hardly lift my 2-year-old.


yeah ummm...you will not win this game like that. He's not being a bully. He's being an untrained dog with nice possession.

You basically played into his possession and opposition reflex. Though I totally give you props for hanging on for 45 minutes!!!

But you will not win this way. lol 

He'll be fine. He's just being a brat because that's all he knows.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This is why we told a young man who was encouraging his dog to play bite and get out of control not to do it. Your dog has been trained to behave like this and you aren't going to untrain him yourself. He sounds smart and eager to have fun. Learn with a trainer how to make that work for you.

Never get into a match of wills with a German Shepherd. Instead, you have to teach him to want to give up the toy.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

Uh, yeah, I adopted an untrained 80lb 3 year old puppy with no manners, very mouthy, very little bite inhibition in play plus, if I tried to take his toy away, he wanted to snap at me. It's taken some time but he is so much better. Consistency and training. You can't expect him to know (or care) what you want him to do right now. 

If you want him to drop the toy, just give him something better (food) and he will drop it. 

As for the play biting, I had to teach mine that mouthing ends the fun. When he started to do it, I would turn my back and ignore him (or end the play session). He learned eventually. This is easier with a puppy but it did work.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Sounds to me like you were unintentionally building drive with that tug contest. And getting angry didn't help. It's been drummed into me over many years "don't get angry" when training. 

BUT you can work this out. Have something to trade. Have something wonderful to trade. Another toy? The world's best (in his little doggy head) treat. The dog also sounds like he has a lot of drive. You can get a handle on it and use it. That's the trick with a large, happy pup. This is likely not what you had in mind for training with a 2 yo human in the picture but it can work out. Nuttiest puppies make great dogs. Takes a bit of endurance on the handler side of things.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think the thing to consider is just what a trainer provides that you cannot. There are many online training videos out there - Leerburg has some great ones but they do not teach you how to be a leader, how to read your dog or how to find the right training method. A pup that age is an opportunist. Every single time they misbehave and are not corrected instantly and consistently in the proper way ingrains as a freedom gained and it's then doubly hard to reverse. 

Take a look at the Leerburg training video's. Find one you like and watch it several times. Notice the degree of concentration the trainer has with the pup. He's reading and working the pup every second of the session. I watched one 4 times, the last time with the sound off just to be able to focus on the body language, leash position and eye contact. There's a constant stream of communication from the trainer to the pup (much of it non-verbal) that you don't see unless you're really looking for it.

If you absolutely have no way to engage a trainer - the online videos may help you but you have to be ready for a long bumpy road with this boy. If you think you can do it, great! You will find support and tips here but I don't think anyone can say it will be easy - it's just such a bratty age


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

This is the reason that this age of dog is the most common age I see dumped in animal shelters. 

Yes, you can have an amazing, fantastic, perfect dog. It's going to be up to you to commit, and get him through this. I've seen SO many dogs transform from this into great family dogs. 

Let the anger go. He's just being a dog. Stop worrying about dominance and "winning" at tug--all that has been debunked definitively. You do need to learn to be a good leader, and that's not the same as being dominant. 

Your size and the voice pitch make no difference. My best friend in rescue is a very petite woman, no more than 5' tall. When she takes hold of fresh-from-the-shelter dogs that are as out-of-control as your dog, the dogs immediately pay attention--she's tiny, but she has a "presence" through her self-confidence handling any dog. I've seen her take the leash out of the hand of a big man on the staff of a shelter who had an huge, out-of-control dog, jumping everywhere in the lobby. She simply said, "May I try?" Then took the leash, and the dog's demeanor changed instantly, with one very quiet "no," and a small collar correction. She sat in a chair, and the dog laid down next to her--relieved to have someone to follow. 

My DH has done the same thing when he walk in a foster home having behavior issues with a new dog, to help them troubleshoot. The instant he takes the leash, all the bad behavior stops and the dog turns into a nice well-behaved one. He's calm, confident, and knows how to handle a leash....so the dog just follows along.

You need a trainer who will teach you how to properly use a prong collar, so you can start draining energy on long walks (or better yet, going for a run) and gain some self-confidence. 

99% of these problems are solved on the human end of the leash.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Um, yeah... It would be delightful to have the time and money and live in a location where trainers were available. I would LOVE to have someone teach me now to handle this dog. But we're in rural Alabama, and that sort of resource just isn't in the cards for us.

I wasn't suggesting that a 45 minute tug-of-war was either profitable or a good idea. Just being honest with my story. 



MayzieGSD said:


> Uh, yeah, I adopted an untrained 80lb 3 year old puppy with no manners, very mouthy, very little bite inhibition in play plus, if I tried to take his toy away, he wanted to snap at me. It's taken some time but he is so much better. Consistency and training. You can't expect him to know (or care) what you want him to do right now...


Thanks for the happy-ending story!



Stonevintage said:


> I think the thing to consider is just what a trainer provides that you cannot. There are many online training videos out there - Leerburg has some great ones ...
> 
> If you absolutely have no way to engage a trainer - the online videos may help you but you have to be ready for a long bumpy road with this boy. If you think you can do it, great! You will find support and tips here but I don't think anyone can say it will be easy - it's just such a bratty age


Thanks for the Leeburg tip! I've had problems finding good training videos. There's so much nonsense out there and I don't have unlimited time to spend online. I'll try to watch it/them thinking about what you said. 

It's not really a question of whether I think I can. I simply have to; that's all.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

You can do this. I am only 5'2" and weigh around 110 most of the time. I have raised and trained 5 different German Shepherds. They listened to me because I commanded their attention. I didn't use force. I also train a small class for obedience and they seem to think my methods work. You can use clickers and treats for rewards for correct behavior not for aversion though. You can trade a treat for a toy. Teach him "trade" and eventually he will give you whatever he has for whatever you want to trade. Also a good solid leave it command is really a handy thing to work on. Start small and work your way up as far as duration. You have a bratty teenager. They all go through that stage. Eye attention is really important. If you train eye attention using the clicker - as soon as the dog looks you in the eye, click and treat - that is a good first step. Getting the dog to pay attention to you is the beginning. Sit and down will come along quickly once you get the attention. I am not above luring the dog into position to train a command, you just fade the lure as they learn. Once you have eye attention, a good leave it, sit and down you have a good basis to continue obedience. Make learning fun for the pup and don't train when you are tired, angry, exasperated, etc as all your feelings go down the leash. Always end training on a positive note. Good luck and keep coming back here with questions.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Magwart said:


> ...Yes, you can have an amazing, fantastic, perfect dog. It's going to be up to you to commit, and get him through this.  I've seen SO many dogs transform from this into great family dogs.


Thanks for the needed encouragement! 



> she's tiny, but she has a "presence" through her self-confidence handling any dog. ... He's calm, confident, and knows how to handle a leash....so the dog just follows along.


 I read things like this and admire the people who do it. But it's also a little frustrating because it's sort of like having an athlete tell you how to win: "We just went out there and played our best and really gave it all we could. You know, you have to have heart and play your guts out and really don't hold back." Which is more or less saying, "I have no idea really how to describe what I do. It's just in me and it feels right." 



> 99% of these problems are solved on the human end of the leash.


 Oh yeah. I agree. If I thought there were no way anything I did would change his behavior, I'd have no reason to begin. That's also why I was asking for happy-ending stories: I do believe there are good stories out there, where good people help unruly dogs be the best they can be.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> You aren't grasping the concept of clicker training at all..


Heh. I guess I wasn't clear about that. I think I do understand the concept of clicker training. I read a lot and was excited to use it with him. But when i tried to click and treat, just for him paying attention to me at the very beginning, he looked worried and ran and hid. Two days later I tried again and he put his head down and trotted off to his crate & refused the treats. I was using hot dogs for treats.. (not the healthiest, I know, but something he likes). He doesn't have a problem with loud noises; Skill saw didn't make him blink twice. So I thought, change in plans: as a way of expressing "no" while keeping the emotion to a minimum, I might click once. Haven't done it yet. It may not work; I don't know. But it seemed like there were less chance of it causing problems than if i tried to correct physically--with a prong collar or something--when I wasn't sure how to do it with a big dog.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

pyratemom said:


> You can do this. I am only 5'2" and weigh around 110 most of the time. I have raised and trained 5 different German Shepherds. They listened to me because I commanded their attention. I didn't use force. I also train a small class for obedience and they seem to think my methods work. You can use clickers and treats for rewards for correct behavior not for aversion though. You can trade a treat for a toy. Teach him "trade" and eventually he will give you whatever he has for whatever you want to trade. Also a good solid leave it command is really a handy thing to work on. Start small and work your way up as far as duration. You have a bratty teenager. They all go through that stage. Eye attention is really important. If you train eye attention using the clicker - as soon as the dog looks you in the eye, click and treat - that is a good first step. Getting the dog to pay attention to you is the beginning. Sit and down will come along quickly once you get the attention. I am not above luring the dog into position to train a command, you just fade the lure as they learn. Once you have eye attention, a good leave it, sit and down you have a good basis to continue obedience. Make learning fun for the pup and don't train when you are tired, angry, exasperated, etc as all your feelings go down the leash. Always end training on a positive note. Good luck and keep coming back here with questions.


Awesome--thanks! My dog doesn't respond well to the clicker. Not general loud noises; just the clicker. I'm guessing this still works with treats & praise alone, but a little more difficult when you don't have the clicker to mark the specific good behavior? We worked on that trade-toy-for-treat this morning. It was a beginning.

One problem, seems to me is, that people use words like "command". But, in general life, what happens if you don't follow your commander? You incur severe punishment. not that you just don't get your treat. So when a novice hears, "I command their attention," it sounds like, "I demand their attention." I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but it's a nuance that isn't often unpacked.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

faith5 said:


> Awesome--thanks! My dog doesn't respond well to the clicker. Not general loud noises; just the clicker. I'm guessing this still works with treats & praise alone, but a little more difficult when you don't have the clicker to mark the specific good behavior? We worked on that trade-toy-for-treat this morning. It was a beginning.
> 
> One problem, seems to me is, that people use words like "command". But, in general life, what happens if you don't follow your commander? You incur severe punishment. not that you just don't get your treat. So when a novice hears, "I command their attention," it sounds like, "I demand their attention." I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but it's a nuance that isn't often unpacked.


You can use an enthusiastic "Yes" or "excellent" instead of a click. It must be timed just right just like the clicker though and be sure you smile. By command I don't mean yell and be mean take control. Let the dog know you are a leader and it will feel more comfortable. This requires confidence building for the dog to feel comfortable. Oddly enough, dogs need to know they can trust you to take care of them in case anything bad happens. Once you build that confidence in your pup with you, you will be "in command". I've had a few dogs out weigh me. I was 105, the dog was 112 pounds so size doesn't really matter. If you show confidence while working with the dog it goes a long way. That includes not losing your temper. If you do get mad, walk away for a few minutes. If the exercise you are working on isn't going well, switch to another for a little bit that you know your dog knows. Stop and think about why the exercise isn't working. Most of the time you can figure out what needs to happen if you stop and think about it. Don't lose your temper and try force. You want the dog to mind your commands because it wants to.


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## MayzieGSD (Aug 28, 2006)

faith5 said:


> Um, yeah... It would be delightful to have the time and money and live in a location where trainers were available. I would LOVE to have someone teach me now to handle this dog. But we're in rural Alabama, and that sort of resource just isn't in the cards for us.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that a 45 minute tug-of-war was either profitable or a good idea. Just being honest with my story.
> 
> ...


The Leerburg interactive classes are actually pretty good. We did relationship games and it covers a lot of basic obedience things (not really games) like come, quiet, drop it, leave it. And you have to submit a video each week and the instructor gives feedback and there is a weekly group chat where you can answer questions and our instructor (Mark Keating) was always happy to answer any questions (even those not related to the topic for the week).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a thought, as I'm 3 hours from my trainer. You don't need to go every week. You need to find a good trainer that can fit a lot into a session and work on what you learned for 3 weeks. Then go back for your next session. Make a list of the most important issues.

1. walking on a lead.
2. sit and down
3. release of a toy

You an easily fit all of those in a lesson for you to work on till the next one. You may have to travel but not every week. Look up IPO clubs on germanshepherddog.com contact them and ask for a trainer.

Denise Fenzi has some great online classes as well. Those are easily affordable.
http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

faith5,sorry for not giving any helpful feedback earlier!I having one of those days myself I guessOne thing that is really important when you want to project leadership is straight relaxed posture.A calm commanding presence as if you are the queen of dog trainers!Sounds weird but it does work,just like others are saying!When he's acting up take some deep breaths and calmly insist on the behavior you want.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> faith5,sorry for not giving any helpful feedback earlier!I having one of those days myself I guessOne thing that is really important when you want to project leadership is straight relaxed posture.A calm commanding presence as if you are the queen of dog trainers!Sounds weird but it does work,just like others are saying!When he's acting up take some deep breaths and calmly insist on the behavior you want.


This is a great description of the command I was talking about. Thanks Dogma.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Leerburg.com/videolist.php

Faith - that's the address for the Leerburg list of several free training videos. It will give you a good idea of their methods.

There is one titled "Michael Ellis on Dogs Jumping Up on their Owners" that explains the situation like what happened with your husband leash walking. It mentions a couple of times about the situation (as in the former owner allowed with your pup regarding this.....


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

You guys are great--thanks! I've gotten more specific good information here than elsewhere. 

I was working on "drop it" with treats just a minute ago and he actually bit my fingers as he was taking the treat! As in, he closed his teeth (hard enough to leave marks) on my fingers past the first knuckle, as though my whole hand were the treat instead of just the chicken. What on earth? I said ouch and ended the session.

My other dogs have never done that. I thought they were smart enough to know the difference between living fingers and cooked chicken.

[/vent]

Sigh.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

faith5 said:


> You guys are great--thanks! I've gotten more specific good information here than elsewhere.
> 
> I was working on "drop it" with treats just a minute ago and he actually bit my fingers as he was taking the treat! As in, he closed his teeth (hard enough to leave marks) on my fingers past the first knuckle, as though my whole hand were the treat instead of just the chicken. What on earth? I said ouch and ended the session.
> 
> ...


He just doesn't know. He has no idea how to take a treat gently. It took my dog a year to get it. Don't just end the session. Teach him what you want.

So you tell him to sit. You hold the treat in a fist, move it towards him and if he snaps at it, close your fist again. When he's come, open your hand and give it to him. Keep doing that and he'll get better and better.

Seger will still put my whole hand in his mouth for a treat when he's in drive and we're working. When it's calm and we're in the house, he's very gentle.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> He just doesn't know. He has no idea how to take a treat gently. It took my dog a year to get it. Don't just end the session. Teach him what you want.
> 
> So you tell him to sit. You hold the treat in a fist, move it towards him and if he snaps at it, close your fist again. When he's come, open your hand and give it to him. Keep doing that and he'll get better and better.
> 
> Seger will still put my whole hand in his mouth for a treat when he's in drive and we're working. When it's calm and we're in the house, he's very gentle.


 I second this!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

No high reward treats like meat for a while by hand. Remember, he don't know manners.... you need to protect your 2 year old - I'm sure you see the potential problem there.....? Learning a little more - getting a little more nervous about your child around this dog......


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

MayzieGSD said:


> As for the play biting, I had to teach mine that mouthing ends the fun. When he started to do it, I would turn my back and ignore him (or end the play session). He learned eventually. This is easier with a puppy but it did work.





Jax08 said:


> Don't just end the session. Teach him what you want....


Crap! So i did it wrong again? I thought I was supposed to end the session! So I'm supposed to go from teaching "drop it" to teaching him how to take treats? Not contradicting you-- I really appreciate your patience and explanations-- just trying to understand how to manage a session. I thought I might confuse him if I switched "topics" mid session. Should I just sort of address any unwanted behavior that arises?


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> No high reward treats like meat for a while by hand. Remember, he don't know manners.... you need to protect your 2 year old - I'm sure you see the potential problem there.....? Learning a little more - getting a little more nervous about your child around this dog......


Yeah, I'm getting more nervous too. Obviously I don't (and never have) let the two of them together unless I'm right there giving it my full attention. My toddler is never outside when the dog is not in the pen, and the toddler isn't allowed near the pen. Inside, the dog is actually fairly well behaved--it's when he's outside and excited that he gets crazy. But even then, if the dog is inside, he's in the crate and the toddler in his room with a baby gate when I can't watch them both.

I do want the dog to be around our boy a little bit so that he gets somewhat accustomed to kids, knows our son is part of the family, and isn't startled by sudden toddler squeals. But only when I'm right there to make sure everyone is respecting everyone else's personal space.

That's one reason exercising and training the dog is so difficult: When do you leave your 2 year old alone so that you can teach the new dog? During nap time, with a monitor in your pocket? In the morning before he awakes? It's a bit stressful.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Play biting is when you are playing with a toy or tug and he gets over excited and mouthy.You stop and turn your back until he calms down.
Taking treats gently is a different activity.It's calm,no play involved.Like Stonevintage suggested if real meat gets him too geeked up you can practice with kibble instead.Hope that helps


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Play biting is when you are playing with a toy or tug and he gets over excited and mouthy.You stop and turn your back until he calms down.
> Taking treats gently is a different activity.It's calm,no play involved.Like Stonevintage suggested if real meat gets him too geeked up you can practice with kibble instead.Hope that helps


Ahhhh. Yes, that does help! I thought the two were basically the same thing. he was too excited by playing & got rough; he was too excited by treats and got rough. I guess I connected them because people talk about training being fun for the dog (sort of like play). Thanks for clarifying. I'll try kibble tomorrow.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You're doing great!Taking care of a toddler while training a rowdy dog is definitely a challenge.Hope you're able to steal some down time for yourself.Have a good evening


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Just a thought, as I'm 3 hours from my trainer. ...


Wow! You load up the dog, drive 3 hours, do training, then drive 3 hours back? Every 3 weeks? You have my deep respect. i'm pretty sure that's not going to happen in our household. Even though it was my husband's idea to get the dog, I'm certain he will rehome it before he goes along with something like this.

But y'all are great and are giving me a lot of good resources for beginning. Hopefully we will find something that works for us. And it's good to know that trainers don't have to meet weekly, if we find someone within, say, an hour's driving.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> You're doing great!Taking care of a toddler while training a rowdy dog is definitely a challenge.Hope you're able to steal some down time for yourself.Have a good evening


Thanks! It helps just to have a "pat on the head" sometimes.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

faith5 said:


> Yeah, I'm getting more nervous too. Obviously I don't (and never have) let the two of them together unless I'm right there giving it my full attention. My toddler is never outside when the dog is not in the pen, and the toddler isn't allowed near the pen. Inside, the dog is actually fairly well behaved--it's when he's outside and excited that he gets crazy. But even then, if the dog is inside, he's in the crate and the toddler in his room with a baby gate when I can't watch them both.
> 
> I do want the dog to be around our boy a little bit so that he gets somewhat accustomed to kids, knows our son is part of the family, and isn't startled by sudden toddler squeals. But only when I'm right there to make sure everyone is respecting everyone else's personal space.
> 
> That's one reason exercising and training the dog is so difficult: When do you leave your 2 year old alone so that you can teach the new dog? During nap time, with a monitor in your pocket? In the morning before he awakes? It's a bit stressful.


Faith, that's something else I though about with your first postings. My first thought when you talked about the previous owner and then your husband walking the pup on the leash was- well if he's used to a man - the man should be the initial primary trainer with you as secondary. Then when you mentioned your toddler son and your size/strength concerns - I became more convinced that your husband as the primary trainer would be best....

It was because of your additional posts, not mentioning participation by your husband but you as solely responsible for this training that made me think that was not an option....

Is it an option? Time to ask that question because you are being so honest with us and it is greatly appreciated. You are obviously an intelligent person and are communicating as such. So much easier than some that post here and are so criptic about their questions.:hug: Anyway, that could sure smooth the transition initially if that is a possibility....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

faith5 said:


> Wow! You load up the dog, drive 3 hours, do training, then drive 3 hours back? Every 3 weeks? You have my deep respect. i'm pretty sure that's not going to happen in our household. Even though it was my husband's idea to get the dog, I'm certain he will rehome it before he goes along with something like this.
> 
> But y'all are great and are giving me a lot of good resources for beginning. Hopefully we will find something that works for us. And it's good to know that trainers don't have to meet weekly, if we find someone within, say, an hour's driving.


I do it more than every 3 weeks. But for pet obedience, this is totally plausible.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

faith5 said:


> Crap! So i did it wrong again? I thought I was supposed to end the session! So I'm supposed to go from teaching "drop it" to teaching him how to take treats? Not contradicting you-- I really appreciate your patience and explanations-- just trying to understand how to manage a session. I thought I might confuse him if I switched "topics" mid session. Should I just sort of address any unwanted behavior that arises?


gotta go right now. remind me to send you a PM and I'll tell you what I would do. You can teach drop it and taking them nicely in the same session.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My Midnite was mouthy with me for about a week after I brought him home, he also had no manners--about the same age as yours. It took about 4 months and he is a wonderful dog(I wish I could have 10 of him)--he is awesome with kids, just adores them.

To get him to take treats gently, put him in a sit, put a treat in your hand and close your fist, tell him to wait..he will probably nose your hand, maybe even paw it. Do not repeat the command wait, once he moves his face away, open your hand and tell him to take it. Repeat exercise over and over again. Do not ever repeat the command, wait him out.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

Wow. Nothing to add right now, but to say this thread makes my day.
Faith5 for asking questions, being honest, trying things out, and coming back for more.
Everyone else for listening, offerering great advice, making adjustments, individual counseling centred on this dog/human/situation combination. Just, wow.
You are all awesome, will keep reading.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> ...I became more convinced that your husband as the primary trainer would be best.... Is it an option?


It's a good question, and my husband and I are still sorting that out. The foremost issue is time. When he works 8 hr. days, he has a little time in the evening to exercise the dog. Recently, however, it's been 10 hr. days and it's about dark when he gets home.

I've insisted that he's better equipped to exercise the dog than I. He throws balls farther, runs faster, and is less likely to be injured by the dog's exuberance. He does his best to get home in time to give the dog a good work out before we settle for the evening. This morning he melted my heart by getting up first and giving the dog his morning exercise--which has been my job during the week. Of course, during the exercises, he works to enforce what I've been addressing during the day (drop it, sit, no bite).

I'm in a better position to do short training sessions with the dog several times a day. Also, in spite of my many shortcomings discussed in this tread, I think my temperament lends itself to training a dog a little more than my husband's. I'm more conscientious than he; more concerned with "right" and consistency. More concerned with building a bond. All the things that allow me to enjoy caring for our home and raising our son apply to caring for & teaching the dog. 

I have actually successfully trained a GSD by myself. I got her as a puppy, though, and was able to manage the adolescent period because we already trusted each other. I knew she would never hurt me (and she never did), and she knew the same about me. I tried to stress to my husband, before we got this dog, how difficult it would be to jump in with a new dog at the adolescent stage. I emphasized that we won't have a dog as great as my old GSD if we just throw this one in the pen and only play ball with him once a day. My old GSD went everywhere with me; we were partners.

Maybe I'm convincing myself I have to do it all just because I have specific ideas about what I want from this dog and I'm pretty sure my husband will be satisfied with a lot less. or maybe I'm avoiding what I perceive as a potential for conflict between us when he gets annoyed and throws up his hands. That stubbornness that made me cling to the toy for 45 minutes until I got it away from the dog? The flip side is that I know I will see this training through until we have a bright, gentle, curious, intelligent, trustworthy canine friend. I have an idea my husband will be more circumspect about the whole thing, weighing the cost of training against the benefits of dog companionship, and he may decide that it's not worth it.

As I said, it's a good question & we need to address it as a family. My husband frequently reminds me that he prefers I do less and be less stressed & more relaxed and happy. I, of course, feel obligated to do more and ignore the personal cost.

I really appreciate your bringing this up. I am a therapist (mental health) by profession, although I'm focusing making a home and raising a child at this time. I love it when someone can see the glaringly unmentioned point and bring it into focus. Thanks for paying attention to both what was said, and what was unsaid.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> My Midnite was mouthy with me for about a week after I brought him home, he also had no manners--about the same age as yours. It took about 4 months and he is a wonderful dog(I wish I could have 10 of him)--he is awesome with kids, just adores them.
> 
> To get him to take treats gently, put him in a sit, put a treat in your hand and close your fist, tell him to wait..he will probably nose your hand, maybe even paw it. Do not repeat the command wait, once he moves his face away, open your hand and tell him to take it. Repeat exercise over and over again. Do not ever repeat the command, wait him out.


Oh, good for you and Midnite! I'm glad to hear that he turned out good with kids, too. It helps to have a rough expectation of time so that I don't get impatient in, say, the first month. We'll work on taking treats gently today.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Just wanted to drop by and read the other comments. There is a lot of good advice here. I do wish you good luck. I think you have what it takes to be a good trainer. The therapy practice will help you control your mood too. Just a little happy story. When I got Raina from Germany she was 13 weeks old. I thought it would be a breeze starting with a young pup. I had trained several other dogs, no problems. This girl came with her own set of new things for me to learn. She had much higher drive than I was used to, pulled like a tractor when learning to heel, was stubborn, and I swore had ADD. So we worked every day, many classes per week as well as I was lucky enough to be an assistant trainer so I could bring her to other classes too. I worked in my back yard, at the grocery store, everywhere I could. Before she was two years old she had her CGC and Rally Novice titles. Now I take her with me to train the small class I do for adult dogs and use her for demonstrations. She does them excellently and I feel very proud that I didn't give up in frustration in those adolescent days. I can drop her in a down stay and walk across the field to correct something someone is doing and know she will be right there when I walk back. I worked hard to get that point and like I said she was the dog with the most drive I've had. Now I'm starting my 6 month old pup and remembering the sore muscles from pulling, etc. The fun never ends and one German Shepherd is never enough. So train, have fun, enjoy. Good luck.


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## Grimm02 (Aug 2, 2015)

I adopted Grimm from a woman who said she couldn't have him anymore because her husband was deploying and she was moving in with her mother who was maxed on the number of dogs allowed. Which turned out to not be the case, she bred him and then didn't want him anymore! He was a little over a year old. The only thing he knew how to do was shake! 

He was so difficult at first!! would nip when playing and when excited. Jumped on everything. Would sit on my feet and would not move. Had ZERO leash skills. I probably have permanent damage in my wrist from him pulling me he's also around 80lbs. 

Did a lot of research and worked on my patience! Haha and we went out and bought a halti harness- which was a total game changer. 
When he went into those excited states and would nip I would ignore him. He would be testy and try to get in my face but I would turn my whole body away, cross my arms, completely ignore him. This definitely helped! We worked REALLY hard on his behavior on the leash- we still are, but he is like a new dog compared to before. Bought some good treats and a clicker and began fiddling around with clicker training. Making sure he is exercised helps tons! Lots of frisbee and tug! Changing his diet helped too the previous owner had him on a low grade kibble!

I'm proud to say my sweet boy knows how to sit, stay, up, down, go to bed, eyes( for focusing on me), and how to back up! It has not been easy! He still does not know how to behave around other dogs and people. But we enrolled in personal training for him after we went to a group class and realized it was too stressful for him. I've realized he really does want to please me! I have to stay calm and patient. And when he is being stubborn I have to be MORE stubborn than he. We have stood in the same place on a walk for longer than 5 minutes waiting on him to listen to me! It makes a difference. It will all be worth it

Keep working you will get there!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

faith5 said:


> ​ I think my temperament lends itself to training a dog a little more than my husband's. I'm more conscientious than he; more concerned with "right" and consistency. More concerned with building a bond. All the things that allow me to enjoy caring for our home and raising our son apply to caring for & teaching the dog.


Ah yes, I totally understand that, we are the nurturers. Nothing against men, it's just been a while since I was married and I forgot. We each took on the tasks that we were best suited for and it worked out well. I didn't know you were a Therapist - outstanding! As others mentioned, that knowledge will serve you well .


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I think you should be his primary trainer because he needs to be worked every day consistently. You can do it. Anyone who can be a therapist can train a dog. Be sure to exercise him in the early morning and late afternoon. The morning exercise sets him up for the day. The afternoon session works off any pent up energy and helps him calm down in the evening.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Grimm02 said:


> I adopted Grimm from a woman who said she couldn't have him anymore because her husband was deploying and she was moving in with her mother who was maxed on the number of dogs allowed. Which turned out to not be the case, she bred him and then didn't want him anymore! He was a little over a year old. The only thing he knew how to do was shake!
> 
> He was so difficult at first!! would nip when playing and when excited. Jumped on everything. Would sit on my feet and would not move. Had ZERO leash skills. I probably have permanent damage in my wrist from him pulling me he's also around 80lbs.
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh, I needed to hear this so much! Thank you! Five minutes of waiting on a walk--I want to laugh with relief because I've been dreading winding up in a situation like this and I know that I won't have any bright ideas except waiting him out!

I never thought to use "eyes" for focus on me, but I can see how it would be really useful.

How long has it taken to get to this point? (Did I overlook where you said that?)


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> No high reward treats like meat for a while by hand. Remember, he don't know manners..


BTW, I tried kibble with him today. He took it much more calmly, but wasn't willing to work as hard for it. I got the idea that it was the novelty of eating out of my hand that he liked, rather than the treat itself. I may look for some extra-tasty kibble just for treats. (How does one know which kibble is tastier to a dog?)


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Y'all have been so awesome to listen and advise and explain--I wanted to share just a little triumph we had today. 

We have two other dogs, a GSDxChow (10 yrs old) and a mutt with some pit bull in her (about 7 yrs.). The xChow has been [what I consider as] very aggressive toward our new GSD since we got him 2 weeks ago. I have a dog yard divided down the middle with a fence (gate between) and I've had the two older dogs in one side and the new one in the other side. They have not had a chance to be together freely since the first day when the xChow showed so much hostility. 

This has been adding a great deal to my stress level, because it means "juggling" the three dogs every time there's a change in location so as to keep them from fighting. They must be exercised separately, let out separately, etc.

Today, though, my husband and I took all three of them for a nice long walk in the woods! About 2 hrs of rambling and running and exploring. It was wonderful! A few tense moments, but nothing like the trouble we had the first day. It was so delightful just to be able to be out with the dogs again, everyone relaxed and moving together as a family/pack. No need to use the leashes, or even distract with treats. I could see the tension relaxing between the dogs, too. They worked on learning, testing, and understanding each other. Tonight we left the gate open between the two halves of the pen, and, after the xChow explained that he would not, under any circumstances, be sharing his food or sleeping space, they've all gotten along rather well.


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