# Growling



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This is a theoretical question.

If a dog growls at his people, do you ever correct or punish him for it? I have heard so many times that this can produce a dog who bites without warning.

I am curious what everybody's take on this is. What are the different circumstances where a dog has growled at you, what did you do and why?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I have the odd habit of conversations with my dogs. I will say thanks and excuse to them.....so a growl? I'd probably say what the **** are you doing? (in a loud stern voice)


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

generally, I give an immediate "leave it" I will correct and repeat "eh! leave it!" if it continues. 
simply correcting for growling, no.


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## truckola (Nov 3, 2013)

Only when playing tug


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I've never had a dog growl at me deliberately.I remember one time startling one of my dogs,she growled and whipped around,saw who it was and looked apologetic.If it happened deliberately it would have to be out of fearfulness or pain.
I would never correct for that,I would solve the problem.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Depends on the situation. Seger isn't a growler so when he does, I pay attention.

However, he does whine whenever anyone gets in my space. He does get corrected for that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mine only growl at each other, usually for a good reason. I stop them because a growl warns me they are escalating their play into a bickering session.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Growling leads to biting. It is something that I would not ignore.


Most people have a dog that are not serious or will not engage. Knowing the dogs that I have and the dogs in the pedigree, I have zero tolerance for growling at me or family members. Again, with my dogs: growling leads to biting and when it comes to me or family members the answer is: NO. I have two dogs that have close to 2 dozen bites between them, growling at me is not tolerated.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I dunno. I get the growl is a warning to more severe reaction . But not always, sometimes it is communication of just. "I don't like this and I want it known". Some times I work with it but I persist. FYI, a thorn in a pad that I need to remove. My dogs now, a dutchie and a rescue GSD can growl at times. But I can tell when it is communication and when it is amping up to something more severe. Both also do it in play a lot. So for us, growling does not lead to a bite... I was going to say, most of the time but I have to say always. I have never been bitten by my dogs. 

My dogs are both pretty vocal in play and 98% of the time it is play growling.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Good question, unfortunately it does not have a cut and dry answer. It all comes down to the individual dog and circumstances. 

Example 1- my lab does not like my cats. She will never chase or hurt them, she would just prefer to exist on a planet without them. I know this because if she(the lab) is sleeping on the couch and my cat walks on her(none of my animals understand personal space) she will growl. She doesn't tense up, she doesn't curl a lip, she growls out of annoyance and displeasure. For this I usually say some stern along the lines of "quit being a witch" and she stops. 

Example 2- my boy Nix does not enjoy me cuddling with him, as in resting on him and hugging him when he is sleeping next to me on the couch or bed. Again based on body posture, tenseness and overall attitude, I ignore it. But... I don't over do it either. I know he is not a fan. So why annoy him for my own satisfaction often. But sometimes I want to hug my dog. So I do. 

Example 3- a few years ago I was getting ready for bed and crawled in and my Lab was already quite settled and I used my leg to push her over and she growled. Well, that did not end well for her. She was forcefully removed from the bed and got a very stern talking to. She was hence forth crated at night for a few weeks. She is allowed on the bed now. No repeat. 

Example 4- my boy gets jerky around other dogs when we are working in strict formal obedience. It's the only time he is a jerk to other dog. But he can be a GIANT jerk in those moments. I work with this a bit different, getting him used to it from a greater distance and then, if he acts up he gets a giant correction. I believe he just hates the "loss of situational control" when I have him in strict obedience. So he gets "worried" maybe not the right word, but it's what I can think of. So I have to work on making him comfortable but tell him it's not ok. 

I think it all comes down to understanding what and why the dog is growling. It is a form of communication. So I don't like taking it away for the most part. It gives me information that I can work with. 

I disagree that growling always leads to bites. It does not, if the dog understands and feels that his communication is being respected. 

Final example- I used to bring my boy Ike to my BF house a lot. She has a Golden an the two would play. Inevitably towards the end of the evening Ike would find a kids sports ball, pop it and the carry it around. Copper(BF Golden) would then try to engage in play. Ike would growl and move, Cooper would oush, Ike growled and moved... Yadda yadda rinse repeat. At about 20 minutes of this Ike finally said "I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOU NEING PUSHY STOOOPPPPPP" in the very scary and menacing way to Cooper. I (the first time) flipped out! How dare my dog go after Cooper!! My friend totally took Ike's side and said " Jesus, he's been warning him for 20 minutes Cooper deserved to get told off". And she was right. And Cooper learned to back off quicker and they were great friends. She and I also learned to put up sports balls and to call Cooper off if we thought he was not being respectful. 

It's communication plain and simple.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This is a theoretical question.
> 
> If a dog growls at his people, do you ever correct or punish him for it? I have heard so many times that this can produce a dog who bites without warning.
> 
> I am curious what everybody's take on this is. What are the different circumstances where a dog has growled at you, what did you do and why?


Correcting a dog for growling is like taking the batteries out of your smoke detector.
Yes our dogs need to be tolerant of some things that are necessary, fix the root cause and try to work with your dog.
Some growls, I agree, are just a response to an annoyance. Others mean something more serious and need to be respected.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

For me it really depends on the situation of the growl and the dog in question. I actually got growled at twice today by both my dogs, neither warranted a correction nor a change in management:

Mako came up to me while i was laying on the couch, he stuck his face in my face and growled at me. However it was his play growl, and a clear invitation for a little wrestling. Which we did. To someone unfamiliar with my dog and his vocalizations it would have looked pretty intimidating. 

Bull growled and snapped at me not too long ago. He was sleeping in the hallway and I stepped over him to go to the bathroom. I just said "chill boy it's only me" and reached down and let him sniff my hand and I gave him a pat. He's 17. Deaf. And has cataracts. He gets the "geriatric pass".


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Growling leads to biting. It is something that I would not ignore.
> 
> 
> Most people have a dog that are not serious or will not engage. Knowing the dogs that I have and the dogs in the pedigree, I have zero tolerance for growling at me or family members. Again, with my dogs: growling leads to biting and when it comes to me or family members the answer is: NO. I have two dogs that have close to 2 dozen bites between them, growling at me is not tolerated.


LOL ... interestingly enough "this" is exactly what people that deal with "serious" dogs ie "I will hurt you bad if your screw this up" say! Baillif said the exact same thing several months ago! 

I've never faced it "directly with my guys. Closest I got was Rocky with the cats and treats?? Well OK he growled at company for awhile also but "Place" and me staying on top of him ... worked out fine. He's much better with company at home today, he'll bark occasionally, instead of the low growl thing ... that's better. He's still not a big fan of company in the home.

But the Cats ... if I gave him treats and the Cats came over to investigate, he would growl at them??? I watched him like a Hawk and again ...he never moved from "Place." So I decided to let that go. His treats were his only issue as far as the Cats were concerned.

He never made a move at them and it turns out it's only one (cat) that "has to know what he has" (freaking cat) But he never made a move forward so I decided to let "that one go" worked out fine.

But by and large in "Pet People World" the prevailing view seems to be* "... the growl at owners or pack members is communication and the prevailing view is if you stop the growl then you, don't get the communication and hence just a strike instead of a warning."*

"Apparently" that is "not accurate" but by and large that is what "JQP" tends to believe. 

But ... not my goal to change how folks think on this one. But for "me" ... with the "Breeds" I tend to favor ... I'm gonna be in "The extinguish the growl at "me camp!" But learning from the "Pros" I'll have "Bailiff's" Cane Corso approach as Plan B ... a shovel in every room! You know ... just in case things don't work out! :grin2:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This is a theoretical question.
> 
> If a dog growls *at his people,* do you ever correct or punish him for it? I have heard so many times that this can produce a dog who bites without warning.
> 
> I am curious what everybody's take on this is. What are the different circumstances where a dog has growled at you, what did you do and why?


I missed this part in my original reply. Yes, growling, snarling, any act that leads to aggression is dealt with swiftly. My dogs have never growled at me. However, I have a dog that was running hackles raised and barking at my husband when he gets to close to me. That was dealt with swiftly and with a come to jesus moment. You will NOT do this.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Slamdunc said:


> Growling leads to biting. It is something that I would not ignore.
> 
> 
> Most people have a dog that are not serious or will not engage. Knowing the dogs that I have and the dogs in the pedigree, I have zero tolerance for growling at me or family members. Again, with my dogs: growling leads to biting and when it comes to me or family members the answer is: NO. I have two dogs that have close to 2 dozen bites between them, growling at me is not tolerated.



So zero tolerance means dog does get corrected for growling? So I guess it is safe to say this has not led to biting without warning for you Slam. I realize you are way more experienced than the average pet owner and have way more serious dogs, too.

Perhaps the whole dont take away the warning is really for lesser experienced dog people who have any number of these following variables: not reading their dogs' body language well, not implementing good management, not have reliable obedience, leadership that dogs dont respect or no leadership at all. (and others not popping into my head right now) 

Of course assuming that a very experienced dog person would know when their dog needed to see a vet (if a growl might have been an indicator of pain), know when their dog needed more training instead of more punishment ect.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So zero tolerance means dog does get corrected for growling? So I guess it is safe to say this has not led to biting without warning for you Slam. I realize you are way more experienced than the average pet owner and have way more serious dogs, too.
> 
> Perhaps the whole dont take away the warning is really for lesser experienced dog people who have any number of these following variables: not reading their dogs' body language well, not implementing good management, not have reliable obedience, leadership that dogs dont respect or no leadership at all. (and others not popping into my head right now)
> 
> Of course assuming that a very experienced dog person would know when their dog needed to see a vet (if a growl might have been an indicator of pain), know when their dog needed more training instead of more punishment ect.


it's more of knowing exactly what and how to correct. You don't correct the growl but the reason behind the growl. Timing and knowing the cause of the issue aren't something that many "average" pet people know.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So zero tolerance means dog does get corrected for growling? So I guess it is safe to say this has not led to biting without warning for you Slam. I realize you are way more experienced than the average pet owner and have way more serious dogs, too.
> 
> Perhaps the whole dont take away the warning is really for lesser experienced dog people who have any number of these following variables: not reading their dogs' body language well, not implementing good management, not have reliable obedience, leadership that dogs dont respect or no leadership at all. (and others not popping into my head right now)
> 
> Of course assuming that a very experienced dog person would know when their dog needed to see a vet (if a growl might have been an indicator of pain), know when their dog needed more training instead of more punishment ect.


IMHO, growling or any behavior that leads to growling at me or a family member is not tolerated. People can disagree about growling, that's fine. I think we need to differentiate the vocalizations and the meanings coming form the dog. Dogs playing and grumbling, growling, etc is ok with me as long as it is over the toy during play. Dogs will bark and growl at each other when playing and rough housing, I'm ok with that. It generally sounds much worse than it is, and the dogs understand the communication. Actually, they understand far better than most people ever will. If it starts to get out of hand or too rough, then I will stop it. 

Growling is generally a precursor to biting, the dog is warning you stop doing what ever it is that he doesn't like or is not willing to tolerate. Sure some dogs may stop at the growl, but a lot of dogs learn that growling gets the owner to stop. Then the problems start. If growling for example, allows the dog to keep his toy, a chicken bone or what ever it is, then the dog learns to win by growling. This doesn't get better, it only gets worse the more the dog wins by asserting itself. 

I have had dogs that would vocalize when annoyed, a low kind of rumbling, but it was not growling. Almost like muttering under his breath. One leads to aggression, the muttering is just the dog being annoyed or irritated. There is a difference, a very big difference. 

I really disagree with the thought that not allowing a dog to growl at it's owner takes away the signs of impending aggression. That the dog will just bite with out warning is really a fallacy, unless the dog has a medical issue or is very unstable. 

Dogs communicate through body language, not all dogs growl before they bite. Boomer certainly doesn't, he is eerily calm and silent before he bites. But, it is clear for me to read or see his signals. He doesn't have to growl to tell me that he is going to bite. He has only growled at me twice, once at 3 months and once at 5 months, both over a toy. He learned that it wasn't acceptable, he was corrected quickly and decisively and it has never happened again. 

To be clear, if a dog shows me the body language that he is potentially going to bite me, become aggressive or growl at me I will take immediate action to end that behavior and what ever caused it. Then I will begin training to insure that it doesn't happen again and give the dog the proper outlet and way to manage it's behavior. Then I will proof the behavior by setting up the same exact scenario and try to provoke the behavior again. I will be prepared to reward of the dog if he acts appropriately; I will most certainly be prepared to correct the dog if he shows any inappropriate behavior or aggression. 

Learning to read dogs is a very important skill when owning or working with dogs. I see far too many people that think it is cute when their puppy growls at them. Or will allow their dog to get away with growling at them, because they think it is not a big deal or something to be concerned about. IME, this is a huge mistake and it rarely gets better on it's own, it usually gets worse. 

Again, vocalizing is one thing, growling while playing is usually not a big deal. Unless, there are some issues with the relationship between the dog and owner. Growling with other dogs is not usually a big deal, the dogs generally work it out. But, it can certainly lead to dog fights. 

IMHO, growling in an aggressive way at me is completely unacceptable and will be dealt with quickly. The cause of the behavior and the growling will be dealt with instantaneously. Correcting the behavior and the growling will not cause a dog to simply bite the next time it has an issue. Dogs always give some signals before biting, growling is just one of many.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thanks Slam, interesting post. When I started this i was not referring to play growls or "tallking" for the record. Only legitimate growls. it came up in another thread recently and my young male has made some noises...

once seemed to be a knee jerk response of discomfort when belly being palates by a vet when he was sick. It wasn't definitely a growl, more like a grumble moan.

Once he made a similar sound while I was toweling him, I was pulling on a foot a later realized was sore that day.

Once when we were about to express his anal glands and he was struggling to get away. We ignored him and carried on. He has never gotten out of anything by growling, but we have never specifically corrected him for it either.

He is a talky boy, has lots of funny growly noises. I wonder if "talky" growlers are more likely to express discomfort by doing an unhappy talky growl... hope I am making sense here. None of the unhappy growls were accompanied by freezing or staring or nasty side eye or any other indicators that this was a serious threat.

So partly I am curious what everyone's stance is in general, and partly I am trying to be sure I am raising mine right. In general he is incredibly easy to handle and, friendly, gentle, not at all what you think of as a dominant or pushy dog. 

He went thru a phase where he would throw himself on the ground when he lost yard privileges for pouncing on the old female when she didn't want to play. I would take him by the collar to take him in and he would flop on the ground all 4 feet in the air and once mouthed my arm in protest. That got him a pretty stern word and he couldn't let go fast enough and with a very apologetic face.

I wonder if I should give him a stern tone for growling if it ever happens again. Across the board he is only becoming easier to handle aND certainly nothing seems to be escalating with him, in fact seems to be going in the opposite direction as last time we did his glands he was very good and didn't even struggle.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If my dog growls out of discomfort or fear,I modify what I'm doing to reduce the discomfort/fear and carry on.Aggression/belligerence would be shut down.


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