# Should I be concerned? (moved)



## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

So I put a deposit for "first pick" male from a litter from the same breeder where I got my current gsd sage at. I love this breeder I have a very good relationship with her. We always stay in touch and I take sage back from time to time to play with some pups. 
Anyways so I put this deposit in and the pups were born on Christmas Day '13, she texted me told me they were born and said she was very sick and would give me pictures and more info on them when she was better. There were 4 males , 2 females. 

So Saturday the 11th I made plans with her to go visit the pups. When I get there she informed me that 3 of the pups had died a couple of days after birth. She is not sure what happened but thinks they got too cold and died ( they are kept inside the house in a kiddie pool with heat blankets under it). She thinks because she was so sick and couldn't get out of bed that they got separated from the mom in the middle of the night and froze because she wasn't able to check on them regularly like she normally would if she wasn't sick( she was very upset by the loss). So she showed me two males and 1 female that were left. 

Now I got a text from her saying that there was a mistake and one of the pups that they thought was a boy actually was a girl. How does this happen?! Maybe it's easy enough to confuse it at this age? So now there is only 1 male. So she said I can see if he suits me at week 7 and if not transfer my deposit to a future litter. So..... Should I be worried about those other pups dying? Or does That seem pretty legit/ common? ( I started another thread about the pedigree of the sire of this one male)

I just want to know what your opinions are on this. Like I said I really like this breeder she is more personable than others I have talked to.
Thanks for your input!


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## bibaxt (Jan 9, 2014)

I think I would be concerned. It's not that easy to confuse sex in dogs and.... Anyone else ever seen a bitch push healthy pups away? Normally she nuzzles pups to her unless she seems them too unhealthy to care for. 


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I would be concerned too. Even I was able to tell boys from girls when my friends dog had puppies, and I'm pretty lost when it comes to breeding and such. There seems like there's other things going on. Most dogs can do a pretty good job of caring for their pups even without the help of a human. Did you get a chance to examine or look at the pups when you were there? How did they look? 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she lying, but it does make you go hmmmm


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Kittens can be difficult. Puppies are easy. IMO something is fishy, but it may not be the obvious. Perhaps she's been having someone else help with the pups since she's ill and hasn't actually been able to spend time with them? Could be an intersex pup, with some confusing anatomy. Could be that she sold your pup to someone else by accident or design and is trying to cover up. 

But if she's spending any time with the dogs and this isn't her first litter I'd be scratching my head as to why she made such a mistake. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lol...no way someone that has had puppies before can confuse a male and a female pup. Especially at 5 or 6 weeks old. I mean, they're almost ready to go home. On top of that, puppies are bald in that area so nothing can get lost in the fur so to speak.

What are your plans for this dog? Any reason why he wouldn't fit you? If your first dog is solid from her, I don't see why just the single male is a problem.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If you trusted your breeder beforehand, I don't see why you would question her now. 

Her inability to properly sex the pups could be a direct result of what ever illness she has/had. As could the loss of the pups.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Msmaria said:


> I would be concerned too. Even I was able to tell boys from girls when my friends dog had puppies, and I'm pretty lost when it comes to breeding and such. There seems like there's other things going on. Most dogs can do a pretty good job of caring for their pups even without the help of a human. Did you get a chance to examine or look at the pups when you were there? How did they look?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she lying, but it does make you go hmmmm


All three pups looked good, except one had a little snort going on occasionally that she was going to get checked out.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

marbury said:


> Kittens can be difficult. Puppies are easy. IMO something is fishy, but it may not be the obvious. Perhaps she's been having someone else help with the pups since she's ill and hasn't actually been able to spend time with them? Could be an intersex pup, with some confusing anatomy. Could be that she sold your pup to someone else by accident or design and is trying to cover up.
> 
> But if she's spending any time with the dogs and this isn't her first litter I'd be scratching my head as to why she made such a mistake.
> 
> ...


Well her husband recently quit his job and is helping her full time. So I'm sure he was helping out especially while she was sick. So I don't think she has spent a ton of time with these pups yet. So I also think he might be to blame on the confusion of sex. Or when those three died maybe there was a mix up if which died and they never double checked there sex until now. 


I don't think there is any way she sold/got rid of my pup because they were only 2 weeks old when I saw them. There's no way she would give a pup away that young. I know that.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Lol...no way someone that has had puppies before can confuse a male and a female pup. Especially at 5 or 6 weeks old. I mean, they're almost ready to go home. On top of that, puppies are bald in that area so nothing can get lost in the fur so to speak.
> 
> What are your plans for this dog? Any reason why he wouldn't fit you? If your first dog is solid from her, I don't see why just the single male is a problem.


Well these pups were only 2 weeks old when I saw them. And 3.5 weeks now. 

Right, this dog is just a companion. I do a lot of outdoors stuff here in Colorado and I also take my current gsd to work with me very day so this male will be the same. I really don't have a problem choosing this one male as long as he is of decent size. My girl is small so I want a boy that's a little bigger


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Lilie said:


> If you trusted your breeder beforehand, I don't see why you would question her now.
> 
> Her inability to properly sex the pups could be a direct result of what ever illness she has/had. As could the loss of the pups.


How could her not properly identifying one pup directly result in what illness she had? And the loss of the pups? Please explain ?


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## havery (Jan 1, 2014)

coulter said:


> How could her not properly identifying one pup directly result in what illness she had? And the loss of the pups? Please explain ?


The flu sucks. If she had that or something similar, I would understand it. I still don't remember most of the week I had it...I certainly couldn't be trusted to remember the sex of several puppies or to care for myself, let alone a litter of brand new puppies. 

I say if you trust her, wait till the pup gets bigger and size him up then. Things happen with breeding that are completely out of control. If this pairing has consistently produced healthy pups, there's no reason to believe this one will be radically different.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm surprised the breeder allowed you to even see them at such a young age. If you trust her and like what she breeds, then trust her.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

havery said:


> The flu sucks. If she had that or something similar, I would understand it. I still don't remember most of the week I had it...I certainly couldn't be trusted to remember the sex of several puppies or to care for myself, let alone a litter of brand new puppies.
> 
> I say if you trust her, wait till the pup gets bigger and size him up then. Things happen with breeding that are completely out of control. If this pairing has consistently produced healthy pups, there's no reason to believe this one will be radically different.


She said it was the worst flu she has ever had. She did not leave her room for about a week I think. So I'd like to think that is the reason. But you are right I really do trust her so I will just wait and see how this male turns out.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would do as you said above. Things happen in life, she was very sick, she had puppies, which is alot of work, especially if your sick..

You love the one you have now from her, I don't think anything is "fishy" and I'd wait and see if the male she has is something you'd like...


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would do as you said above. Things happen in life, she was very sick, she had puppies, which is alot of work, especially if your sick..
> 
> You love the one you have now from her, I don't think anything is "fishy" and I'd wait and see if the male she has is something you'd like...


Yeah I will just do that.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Hey guys here is a pick of the male!! He looks adorable haha


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Omg he is a very handsome boy!

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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Aww! Congrats!


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I wanna squish him!!!!!! He's so cute!!!!

Metro 10/2005-5/2013
Sabo 3/2013-now
Kia 1/2014- now


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He's adorable.

Now as for mixing up males and females, LOL! 

Once upon a time, I had a litter with five boys and four girls -- I think. 

Anyhow, these bad babies looked identical. I used the different color collars to differentiate. Well they got to the point, where every morning, someone had their collar off. Uhg! 

So I needed to get the pups to my partner's place to meet with some puppy buyers. They only wanted a girl so I reached down and grabbed the girl's by their collar color. 

I told these people, yes these are all girls -- I am sure that someone must of noticed that one of these_ girls _had an extra package. I am just glad that they chose a real girl, because when I got home, I realized that I must have replaced a girl collar onto a boy that morning, LOL! 

In the best of times, shtuff happens. When you have extenuating circumstances or are clearly in a hurry or seriously having some physical or emotional problems, mistakes do happen. Down the road, if we have a healthy sense of self, we can laugh at them, but in the moment they can be pretty mortifying.

Or, we can always blame it on the husband.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Oh my gosh, he's so cute, he reminds me of my boy. Where in Colorado are you?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

KathrynApril said:


> Omg he is a very handsome boy!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes he is! I'm excited to see him next weekend. 




marbury said:


> Aww! Congrats!


Thank you




erfunhouse said:


> I wanna squish him!!!!!! He's so cute!!!!
> 
> Metro 10/2005-5/2013
> Sabo 3/2013-now
> Kia 1/2014- now


He's so fluffy!!!!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

selzer said:


> He's adorable.
> 
> Now as for mixing up males and females, LOL!
> 
> ...


Yeah and those are all viable reasons. So I hope this was just a simple mistake like that.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Bear GSD said:


> Oh my gosh, he's so cute, he reminds me of my boy. Where in Colorado are you?


Thanks. 

I'm in buena vista right on the Arkansas


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Another two pics my breeder sent me today. First day for pups to go outside.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you trust her and like her you must have your reasons so I'd keep an open mind. See how they develop and don't feel pressured to decide until they are ready to go home and you can see for yourself if your puppy looks healthy.

Loosing 3 pups is not uncommon. The explanation sounds a little weird (they "froze" indoors?). I have a pup now who was originally from a litter of 12 that went down to 9. The pups were pretty large at birth. The big one got stuck and needed vet's help with the delivery. That puppy and the one behind it in the birth canal did not make it. 10 were born and a few days later, a third that was born very small pass away. The remaining 9 grew normal and strong with no problems.


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## havery (Jan 1, 2014)

Oh goodness he's so handsome already! I bet he grows up to be a lovely boy 

~*~*~*~
Furbabies:
Sofie Rose born 08/2012
Yann von Erzengel born 02/2006


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## hwtan (Jan 20, 2014)

cute!! what is his name?






coulter said:


> Hey guys here is a pick of the male!! He looks adorable haha


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

So fluffy!!! Love it! 


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

hwtan said:


> cute!! what is his name?


Well the wife and I haven't agreed on a name. Haha so it will probably be when we bring him home we'll name him. So we are always open to name suggestions! No human names though.


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Two more pics the breeder sent me! I'm so excited to go see him this weekend!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

So I'm going to look at this male pup on Sunday. I was supposed to have the pick of several males but this is the only one to make it. I just want a strong , healthy, and big boy. How should I go about deciding if I want him? Things I should look for. I know you'll say let the breeder do the picking for you. I just don't see that working since this is the only male. He will be 6.5 weeks old. Is there any way of judging how big he might be? His dad is 95lbs. So somewhere around there would be a good weight. Any thoughs?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Anyone have some ideas?


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

I look for personality does he come right up to you? Is he playful or kind of standing off to the side of his litter mates? Look at his paws it's sort of an indication to how big he will be along with his head. Throw a set of keys on the floor does he go after them or seem interested or does he just ignore them? I had my breeder pick my pup since we are doing schutzhund and showing him so we got the wild one more aggressive go getter out of the bunch. But if you trust your breeder then you should trust they are healthy. Good luck he is adorable!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

This is interesting:

Puppy Aptitude Test


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

mydogs said:


> I look for personality does he come right up to you? Is he playful or kind of standing off to the side of his litter mates? Look at his paws it's sort of an indication to how big he will be along with his head. Throw a set of keys on the floor does he go after them or seem interested or does he just ignore them? I had my breeder pick my pup since we are doing schutzhund and showing him so we got the wild one more aggressive go getter out of the bunch. But if you trust your breeder then you should trust they are healthy. Good luck he is adorable!!


I will look for these things. Do you think at 6.5 weeks I will be able to tell by his head and paws? What kind of reaction do you want when you throw the keys?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> This is interesting:
> 
> Puppy Aptitude Test


Hmm that is interesting. Definitely something I will try if I take him home. Would you guys do this at the breeders? It would be kinda hard in my opinion.


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## havery (Jan 1, 2014)

coulter said:


> Hmm that is interesting. Definitely something I will try if I take him home. Would you guys do this at the breeders? It would be kinda hard in my opinion.


I actually really liked this test...I don't think you need to print it out and take it with you, but it would only require 15-20 minutes alone with the puppy and that's not too much to ask for. You could study it beforehand and get a general idea of what they're looking for and what you want from him.

~*~*~*~
Furbabies:
Sofie Rose born 08/2012
Yann von Erzengel born 02/2006


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Well we saw the pup today. And we LOVED him. He is so sweet and wanted to cuddle us. But when i got down on the floor with him and trued to play he would chase the rope around. The bad thing was they had two other families there before us that played with all three pups for several hours. So they were all three prettty tired and sleepy so i did not get to see full interaction wirh him. But what i did see my wife and i really liked. So we told the breeder we wanted him. He is 6.5 weeks now so we will pick him up in two weeks and we can hardly wait. Here are some pictures of him with my wife and I.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Beautiful pup Coulter!!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you we are very excited to add a new addition to the family!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He looks sweet! 

These will be a Looooooooong two weeks!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

selzer said:


> He looks sweet!
> 
> These will be a Looooooooong two weeks!


I know.... It's going to kill me.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

So cute! That is going to be a long wait! Be ready for the longest two weeks...;-) Congrats.....it is an adorable puppy....


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## Michele Maxcy (Jan 3, 2014)

What a beautiful puppy


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you guys!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

So only 5 more days to I bring him home!! We are so excited and getting prepared. He had his first set of shots and weighed 11lbs 12 oz at 7 weeks 1 day. Is this pretty normal size for a male of this age? I know each dog will vary. Sage weighed 13lbs at the 9 weeks we got her and she turned out on the smaller side so that's why I'm wondering.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

coulter said:


> So only 5 more days to I bring him home!! We are so excited and getting prepared. He had his first set of shots and weighed 11lbs 12 oz at 7 weeks 1 day. Is this pretty normal size for a male of this age? I know each dog will vary. Sage weighed 13lbs at the 9 weeks we got her and she turned out on the smaller side so that's why I'm wondering.



I can't say for other dogs, but miles was 9 weeks when we got him and 9 lbs....his sister was 12 lbs at 9 weeks...he was much smaller, but by 6 months had outgrown her and is now about 13lbs past his sister....if your boy is 13lbs he may weigh another 1-2 lbs by the time you pick him up...I know ours gained weight very fast the first few weeks. You may have a big boy on your hands. 

Fingers crossed this week passes quickly for you! I know you have to be so excited! 


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Thanks haha yeah I guess you never know what you will get


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

coulter said:


> Thanks haha yeah I guess you never know what you will get



Our males was the smallest of the litter, he has out grown 3 of the litter mates that we keep in contact with. It seems that you can't tell....but it is fun to wait and see. Miles head was smaller than Millie's as well, now....his head is two of hers...and he is much wider in the chest and rear. I think it is a waiting game. 


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

So here's another question. I let a friend of a friend borrow my little carrying kennel for his puppy at the time. And now I have gotten it back and will be using it for my new pup on Thursday. But I want to clean it out real well before then. What should I use? That would kill any possible germs or diseases. But also be safe for my pup? Thanks!!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would select a kennel specific product designed to deal specifically with parvovirus, bacteria and viruses.

Something like Kennel Kare


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

bleach solution works just fine
google the bleach to water ratio


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Hmm ok, I will look into both those options. Thanks!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

So if I use just the bleach. Mix 1tbs per gallon of water. Wash it all off with that mixture. What should I use after that? To make sure there is no bleach residue that will harm the pup? I want to clean it tonight cause I bring him home tomorrow.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Do a search for Parvo, don't want to start another thread but I will tell you what I now know after one Parvo pup and 15 years of dogie daddy-hood.

Three shots for Parvo in puppy pack why three?? Because the first shot may or may not give immunity, second shot in the specified time..may or may not give immunity. third shot and two to three weeks puppy should be good to go. Some say two weeks others say three.

What this means is that after your puppies first shot...he is not good to go to puppy class! Most likely he'll be fine but most of the other puppies there are on the same program and if one of them has been exposed..your puppy may or may not be at risk!

Those that take no chances, don't put there puppy on the ground anywhere another dog has been until he is at least 16 weeks old and should have full immunity by then. 

Yep this would impact early socialization but that's another thread! If I got anything wrong someone please clarify!


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Do a search for Parvo, don't want to start another thread but I will tell you what I now know after one Parvo pup and 15 years of dogie daddy-hood.
> 
> Three shots for Parvo in puppy pack why three?? Because the first shot may or may not give immunity, second shot in the specified time..may or may not give immunity. third shot and two to three weeks puppy should be good to go. Some say two weeks others say three.
> 
> ...


Right, I've been reading about this a lot. I took my first pup sage everywhere I went from day one. She goes to work with me every single day. I live in a small town of 2500 ppl. And only once in a while do you see another dog at the job site. We have no strays in our town. But I'm in Colorado so there's definitely a lot of people with dogs around. But like I said I don't run into other dogs much. Sage did fine obviously didn't get sick and she is 1.5 yrs old now. But now I'm more paranoid with this new puppy if I should or shouldn't do the same with him? I am going to ask my vet if there are any current parvo dogs in the area right now. Would you base your decision on that?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

coulter said:


> Right, I've been reading about this a lot. I took my first pup sage everywhere I went from day one. She goes to work with me every single day. I live in a small town of 2500 ppl. And only once in a while do you see another dog at the job site. We have no strays in our town. But I'm in Colorado so there's definitely a lot of people with dogs around. But like I said I don't run into other dogs much. Sage did fine obviously didn't get sick and she is 1.5 yrs old now. But now I'm more paranoid with this new puppy if I should or shouldn't do the same with him? I am going to ask my vet if there are any current parvo dogs in the area right now. Would you base your decision on that?


Maybe I can't tell "you" what to do! My vet would have Rocky on Heartworm year round...we barely have water here and I have not seen a mosquito in 12 years! So I get him tested, low risk area here.

I can say, I was the same as most average pet owners. I did have a Parvo pup in the yard (she did not make it) waited a year got a puppy, first shot and in the yard she went for play time! No issues but maybe I got double lucky? Maybe Struddell was immune after the first shot maybe the virus was gone or maybe because Heidi always went to the far side of the yard...she saved a future pup, don't know?? 

But now I know and "I' won't take a chance with a future puppy. The vet, yep you can ask him but...I had Boxers a commonly used anesthetic, Acepromazine will kill Boxers! I always addressed this issue with a new vet, Studdell White Boxer had two vets, I get any flack ..I'm out!

They don't necessarily know everything! Oh and finally  snopes.com: Trifexis Kills Dogs? 

BEWARE: FLEA TREATMENTS TRIFEXIS, COMFORTIS, ASSURITY containing SPINOSAD/Spinetoram KILLING DOGS & CATS

New drugs not good news! If he mentions either ask for an alternative! 

Yeah kind of a lot of info but it's the basics!

Congrads on your pup!


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