# Who said Goldens can't do Schutzhund?



## Mrs.K

Check this out. 

Now thats a Golden I'd own.


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## VomBlack

It's always awesome to see "off" breeds working in Schutzhund.


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## Mrs.K

As far as I know he's got the SchH1.


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## Chris Wild

Are you sure it's a Golden? Where does it say that? I'd suspect it's actually a Hovawart, particularly with that name.


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## GSDAlphaMom

I thought it was a white golden, they are bigger, thicker. I'll have to look up Hovawart. I've never heard of it...off to google.


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## gagsd

If it is a Golden, I admit I find that very disturbing!


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> Are you sure it's a Golden? Where does it say that? I'd suspect it's actually a Hovawart, particularly with that name.


Yes it is a Golden. I know the dog from a German Working Dog Forum. The owner hopes to put the SchH2 on him in May. Here is another video of Jack. 






I think it's awesome and don't find it disturbing at all! She's done a GREAT JOB!!!


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## carmspack

I think it is very very wrong.

Goes against everything in the breed specific characteristics.

The video clip showed nothing but a little prey and booty drive "bumper retrieval" .

Oh wait a minute there are show lines getting sch h with about as much opposition from the decoy ! I've seen it and I'll say it .

A golden retriever is supposed to be soft , soft in mouth , no aggression, no protection, friend to all.

Look at the dogs' use as a breed. Hunting. Men with guns , hidden in undercover , in blinds . The dog is not meant to search out and indicate every hidden man , and the dog certainly was not meant to be aggressive.

A GSD would run the field , point out the location of every hunter , bark and hold them, take them down when they start fighting.

When breeds are not exactly what they are meant to be then you are tampering with the very fabric of what they are -- the instincts, and then you do not know what to expect .

I don't know who but someone on this forum said you wouldn't want a GSD to be too much like a GSD. Very puzzled about that one . You sure do , and nothing less .

We had a new breed introduced to the CkC some years ago . I read the first breed by lines about it in the journal for the CKC , their monthly magazine. There the writer introduced German Pinschers and said that they were feisty and aggressive which was okay in europe , I guess in the homeland in particular, but for North American consumption they had to ameliorate the temperament , make it friendly , easier.

So very wrong. If you don't like what a breed is supposed to be then leave it alone and choose something else. 

What is with this need for generic dogs at the core with different physical appearances. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

I don't think it is awesome to see off breeds in schutzhund . 
It also says something about what schutzhund has become.
Carmen


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I'm an armchair person with all of this, but have to agree and wonder why people do this. Especially for what was a breed test right?


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## holland

I agree with Carmen-sort of-I went to a club where a border collie was titled to a Sch III-his owner said he did it all in prey drive. they used him to help train new helpers. and I do think it was cool that he was Sch III-his owner enjoyed the time she spent training him and I think it takes more effort So if the golden is doing this in prey drive then fine-but goldens aren't supposed to be an aggressive breed Not everyone doing schutzhund is doing it as a breed test-


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## Mrs.K

And here i thought you'd enjoy to see something different. 

Everybody praised the Jack Russel but a Golden is bad?
A Jack Russel is not made for Schutzhund either, yet everybody praised the work he does...

I think it's great what she does with her dog. It shows that even Goldens can do more than everybody thought they could and that almost every breed can do Schutzhund if you train them right.


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## carmspack

but schutzhund was meant to be a breed test and it is not supposed to be done all in prey.
Carmen


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## CassandGunnar

Mrs.K said:


> And here i thought you'd enjoy to see something different.
> 
> Everybody praised the Jack Russel but a Golden is bad?
> A Jack Russel is not made for Schutzhund either, yet everybody praised the work he does...


I enjoyed it. I love to see any dog working. I didn't see all the video of the JRT doing Sch, but at least with a golden, you wouldn't have to make accomodations as I suspect you would with a JRT.
I have also seen threads/posts on this site that are decrying what has happend to Sch, so I guess you can't make everyone happy.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> but schutzhund was meant to be a breed test and it is not supposed to be done all in prey.
> Carmen



That is what all of you have to understand. It is not just a breed test anymore. It's a sport just like agility. Times have changed and Schutzhund Clubs have a hard time to find any active members, IF the club is active at all.


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## Zoeys mom

I totally see Carmspack point here, but I think any owner that takes the time to train and work with their dog in some venue is doing a lot better than someone who simply throws a ball for their retrieving dog as well. The dog is happy, socialized, intelligent, and being tested in a venue it technically shouldn't excel in. As long as their not watering down Schutz to accommodate these off breeds then who cares? I doubt we're going to see Golden's bred to have the aggression to naturally excel because that I would disagree with. The characteristics of breed standards should be respected and bred for responsibly all the way around. However, if a Golden, Lab, or other dog shows potential and is uncharacteristically apt then go for it!!


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## carmspack

I understand the dilema. Do you know how many clubs I have belonged to and how many of those clubs disintegrated for lack of participation. The last one was organized by a police k9 handler. The decoy we had was a young man who actually worked with Pohranicni Strasse dogs. The club started off with vigour and week by week , the nicer the weather people drifted off to boating and cottaging , till after some time it was the decoy and myself. I told him, look you have a young family that would like to see you , go on home and enjoy them.
We remained friends for a long time after that .
I joined a ring club where I drove a good two hours to get there -- same story.

Here is something that I have said before in conversation and on another list/forum.
If the SV keeps fooling around and making schutzhund a hobby activity then in the end the breed will suffer . The GSD will loose what it stood for.

Working dog breeders will look to GSD out of the German controlled SV system .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Whiteshepherds

Why does everyone find this so disturbing? 

All I see is someone who took the time to work and train their dog which is more than thousands of GSD owners do. I'd like to see how it does with the obedience phase. 

I doubt Golden's are going to start using SCH as a breed test or that the owner has permanently damaged the dog or the breed. (Golden's) Just take it for what it is, a well trained dog having a good time.


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> That is what all of you have to understand. It is not just a breed test anymore. It's a sport just like agility. Times have changed and Schutzhund Clubs have a hard time to find any active members, IF the club is active at all.


The point is, that is NOT good thing. There are those who do still approach it as a breed test and treat it as such and train for it as such, though certainly they are becoming fewer and fewer. The overall attitude of everyman's SchH, where it is just a sport that any ol' dog can do, and that there is nothing wrong with that, undermines any integrity SchH has left. That this often comes from fellow "SchH people" is even more concerning. At least those outside of SchH feeling that way about it have little influence on what happens in SchH. When that view is commonly held by those within SchH, it just goes further and further down the tubes.


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## Chris Wild

Whiteshepherds said:


> Why does everyone find this so disturbing?
> 
> All I see is someone who took the time to work and train their dog which is more than thousands of GSD owners do. I'd like to see how it does with the obedience phase.
> 
> I doubt Golden's are going to start using SCH as a breed test or that the owner has permanently damaged the dog or the breed. (Golden's) Just take it for what it is, a well trained dog having a good time.


It's not about Goldens using it as a breed test.

It's about what was supposed to be a breed test for dogs with a completely different temperament entirely, being watered down to the point where the temperament that was supposed to be required no longer is required or tested. The fact that a dog without proper working temperament, and all the traits that encompasses, can title and do well speaks to the downfall of SchH.

When something is a breed test, no amount of owner spending time training the dog ought to make a bit of difference if the dog doesn't have the genetic make up for the work. The fact that a dog without the genetic make up for the work can do it with just some training is disturbing. Not because of what it says about that dog and it's owner, but because of what it says about what the test has become. And the more people think it's ok, and cool to do, the less value the test holds, the more pressure to water it down further and less anyone has any interest in instead bulking it back up to meaning something like it used to.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> I understand the dilema. Do you know how many clubs I have belonged to and how many of those clubs disintegrated for lack of participation. The last one was organized by a police k9 handler. The decoy we had was a young man who actually worked with Pohranicni Strasse dogs. The club started off with vigour and week by week , the nicer the weather people drifted off to boating and cottaging , till after some time it was the decoy and myself. I told him, look you have a young family that would like to see you , go on home and enjoy them.
> We remained friends for a long time after that .
> I joined a ring club where I drove a good two hours to get there -- same story.
> 
> Here is something that I have said before in conversation and on another list/forum.
> If the SV keeps fooling around and making schutzhund a hobby activity then in the end the breed will suffer . The GSD will loose what it stood for.
> 
> Working dog breeders will look to GSD out of the German controlled SV system .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



Carmspack. The SV is not the only organization that offers Schutzhund. There are dog clubs that are not dedicated to any specific breeds that offer it to. And why shouldn't they? At least the dogs are highly trained.


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## Anja1Blue

Mrs.K said:


> And here i thought you'd enjoy to see something different.
> 
> Everybody praised the Jack Russel but a Golden is bad?
> A Jack Russel is not made for Schutzhund either, yet everybody praised the work he does...
> 
> I think it's great what she does with her dog. It shows that even Goldens can do more than everybody thought they could and that almost every breed can do Schutzhund if you train them right.


Psychologically though I believe it's "easier" for people to accept a JRT doing bitework - they were originally meant to do the same sort of work as Fox Terriers, that is hunt foxes. Per Wikipedia they had a "tempered aggressiveness that would provide the necessary drive to pursue and bolt (drive out from its den) the fox without resulting in physical harm to the quarry..." At least that was the plan - there were probably times when it went awry. Even today they are a scrappy breed, and have a temperament which is very different from a Golden. I was a Schutzhund person for a number of years, and when I was involved in it I was a member of a DVG club - which allows breeds other than GSD's to participate. Never saw a Golden, though many years ago a local veterinarian got a SchH3 on a black Lab. So I am not in the least offended by this video - and yes, Schutzhund stopped being a test of breed worthiness a long time ago. 
___________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## carmspack

here is the problem . Golden Retrievers are now on the vet's list for most bites #3 as determined by public health statistics. Part of it has to do with sheer volume and dogs bred by everyone and their uncle and grandfather as a commercial - hobby venture. One person dubbed them as "greeders" I like it. Same problem with GSD , easy to market .

The retrievers are loosing breed specific qualities as well.
Look at it as behavioural genetics and behavioural phenotype . By definition phenotype is the expression of the genotype, and can be affected by environment , diet, training. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

MrsK I know schutzhund is not exclusive to the SV. I was addressing the fact that dogs (GSD) coming out of the SV system , which requires sch h as a minimum prior to being allowed to breed will reflect the lowered standards . The breed will change and not for the better. 
The SV has already insulted working dog people by shifting the SV's Bundessieger Prufung , making a separation , and by totally distancing themselves from the Police dog trials . 
What will happen is that you will have a split of the serious working people, already happening and as I predicted a new sub group being created , so that we now have show, sport and now working . What will happen is that you will see good working dogs being preserved , oh how I hope so , by good North American breeders -- Czech - Belgian , etc. Not Germany anymore.

Carmen
http://ww.carmspack.com


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> here is the problem . Golden Retrievers are now on the vet's list for most bites #3 as determined by public health statistics. Part of it has to do with sheer volume and dogs bred by everyone and their uncle and grandfather as a commercial - hobby venture. One person dubbed them as "greeders" I like it. Same problem with GSD , easy to market .
> 
> The retrievers are loosing breed specific qualities as well.
> Look at it as behavioural genetics and behavioural phenotype . By definition phenotype is the expression of the genotype, and can be affected by environment , diet, training.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



But you can't blame a single person for that. And so what, the bite statistic went up. Does that mean she should stop working her dog now? Does any German Shepherd Owner who does Schutzhund stop working their dog because the German Shepherd is one of the leading dogs in the bite statistic? 

Plus, she doesn't even live in the US. She's a German, working her dog in Germany and you just can't compare dog ownership in Germany to dog ownership in the US. It's two completely different cultures of dog ownership.


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## Liesje

I'm inclined to feel the same as Chris and Carmen. Sad thing is, I've seen GERMAN SHEPHERDS that were worse off doing Schutzhund than that Golden....


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## Vandal

I think that how SchH is conducted now is one of the main reasons people are losing interest. Used to be the dogs doing SchH were "special". The training was fun because SchH and the dogs doing it were exciting to watch. Seeing your dog overcome real challenges was also. When people see a dog who is actually doing SCHUTZHUND, they perk right up and are really excited to watch it. When a helper gets their dog to look that way, they are even MORE excited about it. Mostly, SchH is boring to watch anymore. What used to be interesting is about gone. I say this as someone who has always been fascinated by genetic behavior , not by how convincingly people can train a dog to "look" a certain way. 
You can't see the dogs" working" anywhere near as much as we used to. People are just too busy making it "socially acceptable" or easy enough so they do well at it. I have always found what everyone else likes, to be something I don't. So, when they turned it into something any person or any dog could do, it lost a lot of luster , for me anyway.

I remember how angry my friend was when a mixed breed won the 1980 Nationals. There were many comments like what is here in this thread but that woman,( who always seemed to understand things better than anyone else), knew where that kind of thinking could lead and behold, here we are.


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, the oh so good old days where thousands of dogs were burned and literally ruined doing Schutzhund. Using car batteries to shock them so they would get more aggressive, using torture to get them to retrieve... 

Torture and Cruelty, that is how the majority used to train their dogs back then and it's still what you can find at todays clubs. I prefer todays Schutzhund over what was going on back then.


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## Vandal

Hmmm so you prefer today's cruelty over the cruelty of years past?

This is the problem right here. Emotional people who have no clue what they are tallking about when it comes to SchH. 

Sorry you were subjected to that kind of training but it doesn't have a THING to do with what I just said or the dogs I trained years ago.


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## Whiteshepherds

Vandal said:


> ...snip... *Used to be the dogs doing SchH were "special".* The training was fun because SchH and the dogs doing it were exciting to watch. Seeing your dog overcome real challenges was also. When people see a dog who is actually doing SCHUTZHUND, they perk right up and are really excited to watch it.
> ...snip...You can't see the dogs" working" anywhere near as much as we used to. People are just too busy making it "socially acceptable" or easy enough so they do well at it. I have always found what everyone else likes, to be something I don't. *So, when they turned it into something any person or any dog could do, it lost a lot of luster , for me anyway.*


I love this post because it's so honest. 

When I watched the video I took it at face value...a Golden doing SCH is unusual so it's fun to watch. After reading some of the more in depth posts I see it from a different perspective. If my dogs did SCH and did it well, (and correctly) I can understand why the video would have more meaning and be disturbing. 

So the question is, if SCH is a breed test and not a sport, why do clubs allow other breeds to join?


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## Josie/Zeus

I wished that clubs are more open and friendly to newcomers, afterall if there are no new members, how do you keep this sport alive? Most people are put off by the clubs because how the newbies are treated, this comes from personal experience.

As far as the Golden, I would be very alarmed if my sister's goldens did that. Thankfully, they are happy swimming and retrieving everyday- and being cute and cuddly.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Hmmm so you prefer today's cruelty over the cruelty of years past?
> 
> This is the problem right here. Emotional people who have no clue what they are tallking about when it comes to SchH.
> 
> Sorry you were subjected to that kind of training but it doesn't have a THING to do with what I just said or the dogs I trained years ago.


No, I don't like any cruelty at all. 

And yes, I've seen my share of cruelty in dog clubs and I don't like it. Yes, Schutzhund is not what it used to be and it's a good thing. As a matter of a fact any Schutzhund person I know in Germany doesn't want the "good old days". back. 

It maybe has nothing to do with what you have trained but it has a lot to do with what I, personally, have seen and experienced. I'd much rather have todays Schutzhund instead of yesterdays Schutzhund. 

I am not sure if any of you has any idea how many dogs got broken, wasted, burned, killed just because of a so called breed test and that all in the name of Schutzhund. That is what I associate with the "good old days" and nobody can change that!

You may not believe it but it's the truth and it's still going on today. So I much rather see a sport that demands happy, tail wagging, flashy dogs instead of seeing another dog that ends up like my male or worse.


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## Vandal

> It maybe has nothing to do with what you have trained but it has a lot to do with what I, personally, have seen and experienced.


No Mrs K, it ABSOLUTELY has nothing to do with what I have trained. You are the one who painted all of it with your black brush and insinuated 
that anyone who trained years ago, is an animal abuser. 

Clearly , you are not happy with where this thread has gone but insulting people because you don't, is childish.

I recall encouraging you to quit training that male of yours because he is not suited for SchH and continuing would have been unfair to your dog. For me, continuing with dogs not suited is a form of cruelty.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> No Mrs K, it ABSOLUTELY has nothing to do with what I have trained. You are the one who painted all of it with your black brush and insituated that anyone who trained years ago is an animal abuser.
> 
> Clearly , you are not happy with where this thread has gone but insulting people because you don't, is childish.
> 
> I recall encouraging you to quit training that male of yours because he is not suited for SchH and contimnuing would have been unfair to your dog. For me, continuing with dogs not suited is a form of cruelty.


I am sorry that you feel insulted. There was no intention to insult you. I have said that I speak from the experiences I have made. I doubt I have ever seen you training a dog. I specifically spoke from what I know what happened back in Germany. If that is an insult to you, I can't help it because I have NOT in anyway said anything about your personal training methods. I doubt I even know you personally so I have NEVER seen you personally train dogs

Again, I am speaking from what I seen, witnessed or heard back in Germany and what I, personally associate with the "good old days". That has NOTHING to do with you or anybody else on this Forum!

And by the way, do you know why he is not fit for SchH? Because he was trained with those exact methods I despise so much. If he was trained the right way from the beginning he would have turned out much differently. And he has proven himself over and over and over again. My patience paid off since he is absolutely fit for SAR.


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## Mrs.K

And yes, it's sad what you've made of this topic because that Golden is **** GOOD DOG!


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## Liesje

Whiteshepherds said:


> So the question is, if SCH is a breed test and not a sport, why do clubs allow other breeds to join?


Some don't


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## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> I love this post because it's so honest.
> 
> When I watched the video I took it at face value...a Golden doing SCH is unusual so it's fun to watch. After reading some of the more in depth posts I see it from a different perspective. If my dogs did SCH and did it well, (and correctly) I can understand why the video would have more meaning and be disturbing.
> *
> So the question is, if SCH is a breed test and not a sport, why do clubs allow other breeds to join?*



Because SchH is like a Religion and some people feel like it's only exclusive to some people. So others went away and opened their own clubs where they have the freedom to train whatever dog they want. Just like people left Europe to settle down in the US to practice any Religion they want. 

NOBODY has the right to say who can or can't do SchH. If you don't like a club you simply go somewhere else or open your own club.


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## Minnieski

I feel like saying that goldens shouldn't be allowed to do schutzhund is the same thing as saying that GSDs should be allowed to be therapy dogs. Just because a golden's original breeding purpose was to have a soft mouth and be lovey with strangers doesn't mean that you won't find some who don't. Just like how some GSDs were originally bred to be boarder patrol dogs but you'll find some of them very friendly to everyone. I feel like it's an unfair bias.

I'm not promoting breeding goldens specifically for sch., but if the guy put in the effort with his dog and the dog has the drive to do it, why bar him?


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## gagsd

GSDs ought to have stable temperament.... Goldens with aggression, to me, is just wrong on many levels.

Mrs. K, I do not think abusive training methods are a thing of the past, there is plenty of that going on now (and not just Schutzhund people).
Abuse is about the person, not the time period.


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> Plus, she doesn't even live in the US. She's a German, working her dog in Germany and you just can't compare dog ownership in Germany to dog ownership in the US. It's two completely different cultures of dog ownership.


I'm not sure this is a debate of dog ownership in Germany vs. dog ownership in the US. 

This is about a dog that is outside the standards of its breed, isn't it? Golden's aren't supposed to be bred for aggression/prey/bite work. They are hunting dogs. They aren't supposed to grip and hold. They are supposed to gently bring the animal back to the person.

As you've talked about breeding GSD's, I'm surprised you are cheering for a dog that is so outside the standards of its own breed. That's like cheering for a GSD that has a the temperament and personality of a Golden Retriever. Would you want to own and breed THAT dog?


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## Chris Wild

Vandal said:


> For me, continuing with dogs not suited is a form of cruelty.


I agree. What's especially ironic is looking at the videos of the Golden that started this whole thread, that is what I see some of in the video. Not because of it's breed, but because of it's temperament. This appears to be club training, so one would assume familiar field and helper, the helper is going out of his way to avoid putting any pressure on the dog, yet the dog is still showing a lot of stress behaviors. Which is going to happen when you try to turn a dog into something that it is not.


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## Daisy

Pretty dog. However, I didn't like the video. To me, this does not show what a Golden is all about, it's quite the opposite. I'd expect a GSD or Doberman, etc. to do this, but it goes against the nature of the Golden. But hey, what do I know, I'm only a beginner to this sport.


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## TitonsDad

That is the most retarded thing I've seen this year. No offense to the owner. Dog barely made it off the ground to bite.


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## GSDgirlAL

As an owner of a Golden Retriever I can only say what a wonderful breed and loving dog(s) they are. I would have one again and again. I have to say that I have the best of both worlds with having him, a Golden and Ava, a GSD. It doesn't get much better then that.


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## GSDElsa

Well, in defense to Mr. Murphy...and I think part of the reason people are entertained by that and not this is the sheer fact that JRT's have more of the personality for it, and Mr. Murphy certainly seemed to be INTO it. And he wasn't titled and it was for "fun."

I can't say I see that with that Golden. He seems to have a lot of the same characteristics in his "bite work" that people criticize in a lot of those showline dogs doing SchH.

So in this instance, I have to say I'm a bit disappointed if he does indeed have his SchH 1 from what's in the videos.


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## holland

To me if you read this board enough-the gsd isn't what is used to be-yet this is repeated over and over again by breeders so what are they breeding?? And owning a GSD is about training it in Schutzhund earning a title and then you can breed it what ever and if your dog isn't titled it isn't a good dog-and yep this is sour grapes but what ever. Not sure how training a dog is ever a bad thing-if other dogs are training in schutzhund what is wrong with that except for the fact that maybe it won't title-I do show handling with my working line dog and we enjoy it and I'll never show her So if some one is training their dog in schutzhund and it is not an ideal candidate for the work I truly don't see where the problem is if they are willing to spend the time doing it and unless cruel methods are being employed whats the problem But I am sure someone will find one


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## holland

If Mr. Murphy did it for fun-isn't that what its supposed to be about anyway regardless of the breed???


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## VomBlack

Reading through the thread everyone makes great points, and if the dog is indeed titled I do find that a bit sad. I personally find it interesting to see videos of people working their dog in a sport that is unusual for their breed, but then I just appreciate people who put a lot of hard work and dedication into training. Obviously my choice of words wasn't exactly ideal. :blush:

Either way this is a neat debate.


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## holland

And why is Mrs. K supposed to stop training her dog based upon what someone on the internet says???


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## TitonsDad

holland said:


> And why is Mrs. K supposed to stop training her dog based upon what someone on the internet says???


I believe the Golden is NOT Mrs. K's dog so your point is useless.


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## LaRen616

TitonsDad said:


> I believe the Golden is NOT Mrs. K's dog so your point is useless.


Holland was talking about this, I believe.



Vandal said:


> No Mrs K, it ABSOLUTELY has nothing to do with what I have trained. You are the one who painted all of it with your black brush and insinuated
> that anyone who trained years ago, is an animal abuser.
> 
> Clearly , you are not happy with where this thread has gone but insulting people because you don't, is childish.
> 
> *I recall encouraging you to quit training that male of yours because he is not suited for SchH and continuing would have been unfair to your dog. For me, continuing with dogs not suited is a form of cruelty.*


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## TitonsDad

LaRen616 said:


> Holland was talking about this, I believe.


Duly noted.


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## GSDElsa

holland said:


> If Mr. Murphy did it for fun-isn't that what its supposed to be about anyway regardless of the breed???


Mr. Murphy didn't have a title....he did it as an exhibition sort of thing. Note the "arrival" in a police car.




 
And I think the helpers doing this with Mr. Murphy are putting more pressure that little ol' thing than it looks like that golden can handle.

I'm not opposed to people doing SchH for "fun" if they find a club that will let them and never getting a title. I am, however, oppossed to dogs getting titles that are not showing the traits they should int he sport.


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## GSDElsa

holland said:


> And why is Mrs. K supposed to stop training her dog based upon what someone on the internet says???


I think you missed the point of what Ann was saying. Mrs. K was talking about cruel methods used to train SchH dogs, and Ann was saying that in her opinion that it is cruel to try and make a dog do something they don't want to (ie SchH).


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## PaddyD

Chris Wild said:


> Are you sure it's a Golden? Where does it say that? I'd suspect it's actually a Hovawart, particularly with that name.


To me, a black Hovawart is one of the most beautiful dogs in the world.

As for Goldens being 'soft' it simply is not true. My 'soft' GSD has been chased by more than one growling Golden. The only dog that ever bit me was a Golden.


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## GSDElsa

PaddyD said:


> To me, a black Hovawart is one of the most beautiful dogs in the world.
> 
> As for Goldens being 'soft' it simply is not true. My 'soft' GSD has been chased by more than one growling Golden. The only dog that ever bit me was a Golden.


Bad nerves don't make a dog hard. A dog that bites an simple bystander or chases a neutral dog has nothing to do with being "hard" or "soft."


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## PaddyD

The heck you say


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## W.Oliver

gagsd said:


> If it is a Golden, I admit I find that very disturbing!


I am with you. Notice, just like a UFO sighting, the actual bite work is out of focus....coincidence? :wild:


----------



## W.Oliver

Liesje said:


> I'm inclined to feel the same as Chris and Carmen. Sad thing is, I've seen GERMAN SHEPHERDS that were worse off doing Schutzhund than that Golden....


Hey...leave Dayna outa this!!!!


----------



## Jason L

I believe in the famous Mr Murphy video, the helper is Steve Romard, Mr. Murphy's dad. It was just a fun exhibition.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> I'm not sure this is a debate of dog ownership in Germany vs. dog ownership in the US.
> 
> This is about a dog that is outside the standards of its breed, isn't it? Golden's aren't supposed to be bred for aggression/prey/bite work. They are hunting dogs. They aren't supposed to grip and hold. They are supposed to gently bring the animal back to the person.
> 
> As you've talked about breeding GSD's, I'm surprised you are cheering for a dog that is so outside the standards of its own breed. That's like cheering for a GSD that has a the temperament and personality of a Golden Retriever. Would you want to own and breed THAT dog?


 
*********, this is not about breeding Golden Retrievers for Schutzhund, it's about a handler and his dog having fun doing a sport. It has NOTHING to do with Goldens being bred for Schutzhund in future. 

It is ONE DOG, ONE HANDLER. Not a breeding program. 

You guys blow this WAY out of proportions. Seriously. :help:


----------



## Jax08

Do NOT swear at me Sweetheart...

Are you purposely being obtuse to the point that was made?


----------



## Mrs.K

_



I believe the Golden is NOT Mrs. K's dog so your point is useless.

Click to expand...

I did not stop working him at all. I do a lot of basic bitework at home with him. Stuff that you would do to build up a puppies prey-drive and it is amazing how much he has changed and that he is so stable now. 

If I had stopped working him, putting him through new situations he would still be the unstable, scared dog. Getting him to bite again was a major breakthrough which was necessary for his rehabilitation. It opened up a whole new world to him. Especially the world of playing tug with him, which again I can use to train him. 

Only by working him he was able to become the dog he is today and working him in Schutzhund was an absolute necessity and with the right helper it's not cruelty at all. 

He 
_


----------



## holland

Oopsie violated rule 16-but seriously it should be against the rules to call someone sweetheart...ugh


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> I think you missed the point of what Ann was saying. Mrs. K was talking about cruel methods used to train SchH dogs, and Ann was saying that in her opinion that it is cruel to try and make a dog do something they don't want to (ie SchH).


Yes, it was part of his heeling process to get him to bite again, just like getting him to play, meet new people, go into new places and simply getting him to a point where he wasn't scared of the world again. 

Kurt is an amazing helper and without him I would have never been able to get him as far as he is now.


----------



## Mrs.K

holland said:


> Oopsie violated rule 16-but seriously it should be against the rules to call someone sweetheart...ugh


Where did I violate the rules? I haven't sworn at anyone... :help:


----------



## Lin

GSDElsa said:


> Bad nerves don't make a dog hard. A dog that bites an simple bystander or chases a neutral dog has nothing to do with being "hard" or "soft."


Seriously. Weak nerves or being unstable are completely different than a dog thats hard or soft.


----------



## W.Oliver




----------



## lovethebreed

I have a question...and it may be a dumb one but I don't know anything about schutzhund so...

The argument here against the golden doing it is because it's not in their breed standard and it is for gsd's, if I've read this thread correctly. So is it in the breed standard for dobes? mals? These breeds are associated with schutzhund and I haven't seen anyone complaining about them. Is it because it is in their breed standard as well???


----------



## TitonsDad

W.Oliver said:


> Peace


That is a violation of the photo sizing limits.


----------



## Xeph

> Do NOT swear at me Sweetheart...


Where did anybody swear? Unless the post was edited.

Also, Mrs. K, the issue that people are having here is the fact that schutzhund has been so "watered down" that a Golden can pass. A Golden is NOT supposed to contain any aggression within their genetics, so either schutzhund has been so weakened by political correctness and being socially acceptable that a Golden can pass, or Goldens are becoming something they should not be. Many people are stating that the former is the most true, and the latter is a terrifying thought.


----------



## Castlemaid

Sorry - using the Lord's name in vane is swearing . . .


----------



## DunRingill

carmspack said:


> but schutzhund was meant to be a breed test and it is not supposed to be done all in prey.
> Carmen


I just got home from work and watched the videos of the Golden doing schutzhund.....and all I kept wondering was what would the dog do if the helper REALLY pushed?? or even did a half-hearted attack?? I don't expect Goldens to act like a good German Shepherd.....I don't WANT Goldens to act like a German Shepherd!

I have a friend who does obedience with border collies, she competes at a high level and has 2 OTCh dogs. She had her dogs at an event where people try out a variety of dog sports (from dock diving to schutzhund) and is now telling everyone that her border collie can do schutzhund. She even has a picture of her OTCh dog on a sleeve. The truth is, her dog is playing tug with the helper, and this trainer doesn't understand that her dog is not REALLY doing schutzhund. She's convinced the only thing standing between her dog and a schutzhund title is the lack of nearby helper work and time. Don't even try to convince her otherwise. Yes I KNOW there are border collies with schutzhund titles, just like there are GSDs I'd never want to depend on who also get schutzhund titles.


----------



## Xeph

> Sorry - using the Lord's name in vane is swearing . . .


Only if you're religious... *Shrugs*

Sorry, not something I consider a swear.


----------



## Jax08

Well, I'm NOT religious but it is still offensive. Especially since I was only giving an opinion. If she doesn't want anyone to disagree with her then I would suggest not posting on the World Wide Web.


----------



## Jax's Mom

I don't understand what's wrong with this video like I don't understand ** comment removed by Admin** I don't own a golden and ** comment removed by Admin** so I fail to see how it could effect me. 
Other than that, it was a neat video. 

I too am familiar with Eurpoean training and breeding programs. One of our dogs was found in our neighbor's garbage because he was the runt. Nothing was wrong with him other than he was the smallest. The breeder didn't want to be associated with him so he threw him in the trash. He found out we had him and told us never to tell anyone where he came from. His other dogs were trained/harassed by throwing metal buckets in their direction, locking them in a shed and banging on the sides, etc. Nothing that would be remotely acceptable here.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I'm finding it really hard to believe that the majority of people on this thread are really concerned that the golden is being made to do something it wasn't designed to do. I do think people are concerned about the standards for Schutzhund being lowered so it's no longer a valid test for breed worthiness in the GSD and that makes sense. 

So what are you doing to help bring Schutzhund back to where you think it should be? How do you plan to stop the rock from rolling over the edge of the cliff before it's too late?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Who wants brownies!?!


----------



## lovethebreed

lovethebreed said:


> I have a question...and it may be a dumb one but I don't know anything about schutzhund so...
> 
> The argument here against the golden doing it is because it's not in their breed standard and it is for gsd's, if I've read this thread correctly. So is it in the breed standard for dobes? mals? These breeds are associated with schutzhund and I haven't seen anyone complaining about them. Is it because it is in their breed standard as well???


SO can no one answer my question??? Is Schutzhund part of the breed test for dobes and mals?


----------



## DunRingill

lovethebreed said:


> SO can no one answer my question??? Is Schutzhund part of the breed test for dobes and mals?


Schutzhund is natural and correct for dobes, and mals, and rotties. It is NOT normal correct behavior for goldens. But the truth is, you can find representatives of just about any breed that can be worked thru a schutzhund title the way the game is being played at many clubs today.


----------



## lovethebreed

Thanks. Since I don't know enough about it to have an opinion, I'm just looking at it from logical stand point.

The complaint I read on here is the golden shouldn't be doing schutzhund because it's not part of their breed test as it is for gsd's. So following that same logic, if schutzhund is not part of the breed test for dobes and mals then the same complaint should hold true, yet I've never seen anyone on here complain about those two breeds doing it.

All of which makes it very subjective. I wouldn't think it could not go both ways. THe argument (in this thread) is 'it's not in the breed test, therefore, shouldn't be doing it' should thenapply to any breed (that it's not in the breed test).

Again, I'm just following the logic of the statement.


----------



## Xeph

I'm not entirely sure you're really understanding the term "breed test" here. It's not just about the "breed test", it's about what the breeds were created FOR.

The Golden is meant to be a hunter's gun dog and companion. The German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Malinois, and Doberman, were all bred for protection as one of their functions, if not their primary function.


----------



## Mrs.K

And here I am thinking that a German Shepherds primary role was to be a herding dog just like his names indicates ( S.H.E.P.H.E.R.D...) and only later down the road they were also used as protection dogs.

And by the way... how many of you complain about dogs not being trained at all? Here's a dog, trained and worked by his handler and now you are complaining that he's worked in Schutzhund which consists of Obedience, Tracking, Protection. 

Would you rather have a dog that doesn't listen and chases your dogs or kids down the road or a dog that is actually in Schutzhund. 

It's kind of hypocritical to complain about dogs that are not trained but on the other hand you complain IF somebody is actually training his dog and you don't agree with what he's training his dog in. 

Truth is, you can't do a darn thing about it because it's NONE of your business what kind of sport somebody is doing with his dog. It's a free world and everybody is entitled to do what he wants to do with his dog as long as it's not abusive. 

The golden is trained much better than a lot of dogs on this Forum. If you can't deal with that, it's your problem, not the handlers or mine. Live with it!


----------



## Jax's Mom

So then a GSD has no business in agility?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Please explain re. agility?


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> So then a GSD has no business in agility?


Apparently not, since he's not bred for it. 

But that means he has no business being a Therapy or any type of Service dog either... because the only thing he's bred for is protection...


----------



## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Apparently not, since he's not bred for it.
> 
> But that means he has no business being a Therapy or any type of Service dog either... because the only thing he's bred for is protection...


Sandra, I think you and some others are taking it out of context. Its sad that a dog--who no natural fight and aggression--can GET A SCHUTZHUND TITLE! Sure, fun for everyone to train, but that dog should NOT have an SchH 1!

It does say a lot as to what the state of the sport is right now.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra, I think you and some others are taking it out of context. Its sad that a dog--who no natural fight and aggression--can GET A SCHUTZHUND TITLE! Sure, fun for everyone to train, but that dog should NOT have an SchH 1!
> 
> *It does say a lot as to what the state of the sport is right now*.


What can be done to fix the problem?


----------



## GSDElsa

Whiteshepherds said:


> What can be done to fix the problem?


It's gotta start with the TD, helpers, and breeders IMO. The "little man" like me usually goes along with whatever is acceptable at the club.


----------



## Jax's Mom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Please explain re. agility?


Everyone is up in arms that a golden is doing schH because that isn't what they were bred for... is that the attitude BC people should have about GSDs competing against their dogs in agility?
I'm slightly offended that this is how a lot of people feel about other breeds doing schH... On one hand they cry and whine that they have to drive 2 hrs to the nearest club, on the other hand they're complaining that it's not exclusive enough.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra, I think you and some others are taking it out of context. Its sad that a dog--who no natural fight and aggression--can GET A SCHUTZHUND TITLE! Sure, fun for everyone to train, but that dog should NOT have an SchH 1!
> 
> It does say a lot as to what the state of the sport is right now.



Really? I think it is sad that some people on here bash a handler and his dog just because the dog "shouldn't" have a SchH1. 

It tells me a lot of how welcoming some of the folks really are and I sure as heck wouldn't want to train with anyone that would chase a Golden off the premises just because he's a Golden. 

I rather have somebody training a Golden in Schutzhund than not having him trained at all. If the handler and his dog are having fun doing it, why shouldn't they train in what THEY have fun with. Who are you, I or anyone else to tell them they can't do what they enjoy just because he's the wrong breed? 

Seriously, any dog can do Schutzhund just as any dog can do Agility, SAR or Obedience. Schutzhund is NOT just an exclusive club for Shepherd Snobs.


----------



## lovethebreed

Another question in my quest to learn about this...

Somewhere in this thread I think I read where someone said the golden wasn't doing protection he was playing going after the sleeve...something like that. It was this a.m. when I read it so I'm paraphrasing.

A few weeks ago I read in a thread on here that there is a difference in the dogs that do actual 'protection' and those that do schutzhund. Further stating the dogs doing schutzhund were merely going for the sleeve (prize) and not doing actual protection.

If that is the case, how is that any different than what the golden is doing?


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> Everyone is up in arms that a golden is doing schH because that isn't what they were bred for... is that the attitude BC people should have about GSDs competing against their dogs in agility?
> I'm slightly offended that this is how a lot of people feel about other breeds doing schH... On one hand they cry and whine that they have to drive 2 hrs to the nearest club, on the other hand they're complaining that it's not exclusive enough.


I absolutely agree with you. 

I do not want to be part of a club where I feel secluded or not welcome just because I have a breed that doesn't "fit" their standard.


----------



## Xeph

> Seriously, any dog can do Schutzhund


Again, that's the problem people are having. Schutzhund was originally created for GSDs only, and it slowly branched out until it involved all breeds, even mixes. The "problem" with that is that SchH is no longer a breed test for the GSD but a fun sport than anybody can compete in.

Some people take issue with that.



> If that is the case, how is that any different than what the golden is doing?


It's not. That's what people are saying they DON'T like.


----------



## GSDElsa

Do you think that dog is showing in that video what it takes to receive a SchH 1 title?

It shouldn't be something that Golden's can do because Golden's aren't supposed to have those traits that is what makes SchH SchH. Either the Golden is way out of the breed in temperment or SchH has gone way downhill in what it's trying to test.

I personally don't think any dog can do SChH. There aren't a lot of breeds who show the right drives to be able to title in it. Or shouldn't be able to title in it.


----------



## GSDElsa

lovethebreed said:


> Another question in my quest to learn about this...
> 
> Somewhere in this thread I think I read where someone said the golden wasn't doing protection he was playing going after the sleeve...something like that. It was this a.m. when I read it so I'm paraphrasing.
> 
> A few weeks ago I read in a thread on here that there is a difference in the dogs that do actual 'protection' and those that do schutzhund. Further stating the dogs doing schutzhund were merely going for the sleeve (prize) and not doing actual protection.
> 
> If that is the case, how is that any different than what the golden is doing?


That's the whole point here. That's not "just" what SchH should be--they shouldn'e be making a game out of biting the sleeve-...but it's becoming increasingly obviously that is what it has become.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Do you think that dog is showing in that video what it takes to receive a SchH 1 title?
> 
> It shouldn't be something that Golden's can do because Golden's aren't supposed to have those traits that is what makes SchH SchH. Either the Golden is way out of the breed in temperment or SchH has gone way downhill in what it's trying to test.
> 
> I personally don't think any dog can do SChH. There aren't a lot of breeds who show the right drives to be able to title in it. Or shouldn't be able to title in it.


Have you seen a full video or him working through the SchH1? All you saw is a short sequence. It's easy to judge from watching a two minute video without knowing how the dog truly and really works or actually seen the trial.


----------



## GSDElsa

Jax's Mom said:


> Everyone is up in arms that a golden is doing schH because that isn't what they were bred for... is that the attitude BC people should have about GSDs competing against their dogs in agility?
> I'm slightly offended that this is how a lot of people feel about other breeds doing schH... On one hand they cry and whine that they have to drive 2 hrs to the nearest club, on the other hand they're complaining that it's not exclusive enough.


OMGGGGGGGGGGGGG. You people are just not "getting" what people are saying and hopefully someone like Chris, who is much better at putting things in a clear, concise way can chime in. 

It has nothing to do with being exclusive. Dobes do SchH. Rotties do SchH. Mals do SchH. These are all dogs that have similar fight drives to an extent of a GSD. So it makes sense that they can perform in SchH they way it's supposed to be done (not just a fun game for the dog to play tug). HOWEVER. A Golden (this Golden) does NOT have those drives (obvious from the video) and is not SUPPOSED to have those drives. So NO...he should not have a SchH title IMO.

There is nothing wrong with going to a club and having fun if they are willing to put their time and resources in doing it. But no, not all dog breeds should be able to show the aggression and fight drive that certain breeds do enough to get a Sch 1 and beyond.


----------



## Chris Wild

lovethebreed said:


> A few weeks ago I read in a thread on here that there is a difference in the dogs that do actual 'protection' and those that do schutzhund. Further stating the dogs doing schutzhund were merely going for the sleeve (prize) and not doing actual protection.
> 
> If that is the case, how is that any different than what the golden is doing?


Not all dogs doing SchH are working in prey, going for the sleeve as a "prize". There are dogs who do it utilizing the same range of protection drives as a real protection dog. Fewer than there used to be, but they are still out there and still doing SchH. But it is no longer required for a dog to express those traits to title. It once was, hence the whole name for the test in the first place: protection dog. Obviously, some people, including a lot who participate and support SchH, think that is fine and welcome it becoming a sport that any old dog can do. Others do not.

The fact that dogs CAN title in SchH working that way is one of the things wrong with modern SchH. It is not about a Golden titling in SchH. It is about any dog, regardless of breed, titling in SchH without exhibiting the traits SchH is supposed to be testing for. People are picking on Goldens in this tread because as a rule, that breed doesn't have those traits. The GSD should have those traits, but many don't. Those who don't, shouldn't be getting titled, regardless of their breed.


----------



## Mrs.K

Xeph said:


> Again, that's the problem people are having. Schutzhund was originally created for GSDs only, and it slowly branched out until it involved all breeds, even mixes. The "problem" with that is that SchH is no longer a breed test for the GSD but a fun sport than anybody can compete in.
> 
> Some people take issue with that.
> 
> 
> It's not. That's what people are saying they DON'T like.


That is not the Golden handlers problem. While she may train with GSD people, she is NOT participating in any SV events, since it's not a German Shepherd. 

An all breed club has NOTHING to do with the SV. No mixed breed can go to the Bundessiegerpruefung of the SV. 

It's NOT her or anyone elses fault. These trials are completely secluded from the SV. It's a completely different organization. 

SV people compete with SV people. SHE competes with the VDH and NOT with the SV. 

So some of you should really think about who you blame in the first place. It's not people like her that ruin the sport since she's not competing with the SV in the first place! It's the SV people themselves that brought it down and made it a sport. 

SV IS STILL SV and has it's own rules and set of standards.


----------



## lovethebreed

I'm still confused about this part:

_A few weeks ago I read in a thread on here that there is a difference in the dogs that do actual 'protection' and those that do schutzhund. Further stating the dogs doing schutzhund were merely going for the sleeve (prize) and not doing actual protection.
_
If that is true....and it must be because I read it on this forum ...then the gsd doing schutzhund isn't really doing protection either. It's all about the sleeve prize??????


----------



## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Have you seen a full video or him working through the SchH1? All you saw is a short sequence. It's easy to judge from watching a two minute video without knowing how the dog truly and really works or actually seen the trial.


Admittedly enough, that is true. But A. Why would she put it up if it wasn't a good representation of her dog working? and B. I guess you shouldn't have put it up if you didn't think it was a good representation of him working.


----------



## onyx'girl

lovethebreed said:


> I'm still confused about this part:
> 
> _A few weeks ago I read in a thread on here that there is a difference in the dogs that do actual 'protection' and those that do schutzhund. Further stating the dogs doing schutzhund were merely going for the sleeve (prize) and not doing actual protection.
> _
> If that is true....and it must be because I read it on this forum ...then the gsd doing schutzhund isn't really doing protection either. It's all about the sleeve prize??????


not if the helper is working the dog correctly. The sleeve is a target, and when pressure is placed on the dog, the dog will react to the agitator, as long as s/he has the sleeve, then that should be the target of the bite. My dog could really care less about the sleeve, because he knows it isn't the threat, the person wearing it is. And if he didn't have the right foundation placed while undergoing training, he would not target the sleeve but go for any part he could to control the helper. It does depend on the dog & the training though.


----------



## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> Not all dogs doing SchH are working in prey, going for the sleeve as a "prize". There are dogs who do it utilizing the same range of protection drives as a real protection dog. Fewer than there used to be, but they are still out there and still doing SchH. But it is no longer required for a dog to express those traits to title. It once was, hence the whole name for the test in the first place: protection dog. Obviously, some people, including a lot who participate and support SchH, think that is fine and welcome it becoming a sport that any old dog can do. Others do not.
> 
> The fact that dogs CAN title in SchH working that way is one of the things wrong with modern SchH. It is not about a Golden titling in SchH. It is about any dog, regardless of breed, titling in SchH without exhibiting the traits SchH is supposed to be testing for. People are picking on Goldens in this tread because as a rule, that breed doesn't have those traits. The GSD should have those traits, but many don't. Those who don't, shouldn't be getting titled, regardless of their breed.


Honestly, I much rather have a prey driven dog than a dog that primarily works in defense. 

First of all, it's not such a big pain in the butt to train a prey driven dog and secondly they are much more stable and predictable than a defense driven dog. To many handlers want these dogs and they can't even handle them. I'd rather have a dog that I know I can handle and if that means that everybody else thinks I shouldn't put a title on him just because it's a prey driven dog... that is your opinion, not mine. I am still going to put a title on him. 

Does that mean I am breeding that dog? NO! 
Just because a dog has a SchH title doesn't mean you can go and breed him. He still needs to be gekoered in Germany while over here, having a title already gives him permission to go and mate with a female. 

Many dogs have a schH title but aren't gekoered nor will they ever be bred.


----------



## lovethebreed

Thanks Chris, that make sense.

GSDElsa...I understand the breed quality of a golden is not protection or prey drive. You missed my point which was the logic of the statement: 'if it's not in the breed test, it shouldn't do schutzhund'. That statement (in logic) says dobes, mals, etc should not be doing schutzhund either if it's not in their breed standard.

I get they have protection/prey drive. I was basing the complaint on a factual logical statement when this is obvisoulsy all based subjectively.


----------



## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I much rather have a prey driven dog than a dog that primarily works in defense.


There is more to correct working temperament than just prey vs defense, and a dog doing protection properly, either SchH or real life, needs more than either or both of those, and neither of those is it's primary drive. And a dog who works in something other then prey is not necessarily hard to control. 

I'm sorry, but it is this very, very misinformed attitude that is used to fuel the softening of SchH into a PC game, and sapping the correct working drives out of the breeds that were supposed to have them in the first place.


----------



## holland

...and some dogs are never koered and breed...And if you are so concerned about a dog that is only working in prey drive don't let those dogs into your club


----------



## Chris Wild

lovethebreed said:


> You missed my point which was the logic of the statement: 'if it's not in the breed test, it shouldn't do schutzhund'. That statement (in logic) says dobes, mals, etc should not be doing schutzhund either if it's not in their breed standard.
> 
> I get they have protection/prey drive. I was basing the complaint on a factual logical statement when this is obvisoulsy all based subjectively.


I don't see your point either. I also think you are confusing breed standard and breed test, which are two very different things.

Those other breeds are working breeds as well, ones created in large part to be protection dogs. Their breed standards include very similar language to that of the GSD with regard to working temperament traits. Whereas of course the standards of other breeds are quite different. 

And while SchH originated as a breed test for GSDs, most of those other breeds you mentioned have very similar tests, designed to test much the same traits. And SchH is a perfectly suitable activity because the traits those breeds are supposed to have and the traits SchH are supposed to test are complimentary.


----------



## Jax's Mom

GSDElsa said:


> OMGGGGGGGGGGGGG. You people are just not "getting" what people are saying


If I told you I understand that people are upset because they've "lowered the bar" for schH titles, would that make your life complete?
After that, will you take a look at what the "bar" used to be? A large part of it was beating the tar out of the dog to build nerve. If today's "lowered" bar includes a helper that will go out of his way to not jam my dog and break his neck, I'm cool with that.


----------



## Mrs.K

You know what is sad. Here is a dog that isn't bred for SchH and a handler that put a lot of work into the dog and actually managed to title him. I say it has NOTHING to do with the fact that SchH got softened but with the fact that she is an amazing handler. 

You should appreciate what she has made out of a dog that isn't bred for SchH. That she has actually been able to get him that far is a true and real accomplishment but you are ripping her apart just because it's a Golden and 'shouldnt' be titled. 

I applaud her for her accomplishment and I have a lot of respect for her to actually go out there and do that kind of work with her Golden Retriever despite what any of you says on here. 

I am very very disappointed in some of you people. NEVER in my life would I have thought that ANY of you would rip the accomplishments of a handler apart just because he's not handling "the right breed". 

It says a lot and I have lost a lot of respect for some of you. THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF SPORTSMANSHIP that you all preach on a daily basis. Shame on the once that can not see the accomplishments of that handler and her dog!


----------



## carmspack

MrsK here is how wonderful and versatile the GSD can be. Yes herding and stock dog use were primary functions of the regional herding dogs that amalgamated to create a uniform breed we know as GSD. The versatility proved itself in that horror of WW 1 , where GSD were used to locate and rescue the wounded , to act as messenger dogs , to assist the wounded and the blinded . So yes indeed a GSD can perform the duties of a therapy dog with no question . Wesen or nerves being just as important as in protection. 
It is this amazing versatility that put the GSD on to the world stage for all to admire.
It is the versatility which makes the dog a highly desirable police dog , a companion and protector of home and family .

You mentioned something about the culture of the people in Germany . I do have a contact who is a professional herder , clearing fields of weeds for forestry management using sheep-mowers and dogs. One of the biggest complaints is the ignorance of people who drive to the locations and open the car doors to let spoiled dogs romp to "play with the herding dogs" and they scare and scatter the sheep on a wild chase. Seems animal-sense and common sense disappearing is pervasive .

The GSD was not created as a biting dog it was created as a gripping dog, which is one reason why the full mouth grip is looked for in protection work. This necessitates a long and broad muzzle , and a calm and confident dog who is committed to holding . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl

> ...and some dogs are never koered and breed...And if you are so concerned about a dog that is only working in prey drive don't let those dogs into your club


dogs can learn to transition from prey to defense with the right training, not "letting them into the club" makes no sense? More often than not, most pups, green dogs are working in prey


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## Chris Wild

Jax's Mom said:


> After that, will you take a look at what the "bar" used to be? A large part of it was beating the tar out of the dog to build nerve.


<sigh> And this is the other argument based mostly on misinformation, or assuming one bad apple has spoiled the whole bunch, that pushes the bar lower and lower and lower.


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## Catu

I don't think this has anything to do with SV or not SV.

for me, even if the Golden is doing IPO and not Schutzhund (and IPO IS as sport and not a breed test) it is still wrong because as stated at nauseum:

a) The Golden doesn't have the temperament a golden should have
b) The judge is blind and is not measuring what he should be measuring and giving free points and free titles.

then A is sad and B is offensive for the people who works hard to preserve traits that are a necessity still in many venues into their bloodlines, regarding of being frowned up by the PC crowd and those that work hard to train a dog to the correct level of proficiency to "earn" a title, not being given an acronym before the dog's name.


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## Chris Wild

Clearly some are unable or unwilling to listen to what is being said, and would rather just focus on what they want to think is being said.

For the last time NO ONE is ripping this handler or her dog apart, or saying that she didn't work hard, have fun and shouldn't be commended for that. What people are upset with is the softening of the requirements to title. And they aren't even really talking about this particular dog, but it is just a convenient example at the moment to illustrate those concerns.

Especially ironic is those who only see bashing of the handler and dog, which isn't happening, are showing the same level of disrespect to the GSD breed as a whole, it's heritage and purpose, and those who try to preserve it as a true working breed, not a sport participant, and the tools they use to do so.


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## holland

You know what Mrs K is right someone spent the time titling and training their dog to a Sch I and regardless of what is said that is an accomplishment And maybe that person knows exactly what drive their dog worked in to get that title but nonetheless they earned it. So I get it it is not the ideal-So what. And just because I don't agree with someone's view point does not make me mis informed


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## lovethebreed

Thanks Chris, you answered this question as well.

_And while SchH originated as a breed test for GSDs, *most of those other breeds you mentioned have very similar tests, designed to test much the same traits.*_

I did not know that which is why it didn't make sense to me in the earlier post...which took me to my point. Yes it is now a moot point now that I know that.


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> <sigh> And this is the other argument based mostly on misinformation, or assuming one bad apple has spoiled the whole bunch, that pushes the bar lower and lower and lower.


One bad apple? Seriously? One bad apple? 

THOUSANDS of people have used the stick to beat the crap out of dogs to build nerves and make them "stronger". 

It wasn't just one bad apple. Go to the local clubs in Germany. The small clubs and watch how people train OUTSIDE training hours. You will be surprised how much cruelty you still come across and how many still beat the crap out of dogs. 

I am not sure if some of you just don't know any better or if you don't believe it but apparently none of you has any idea of what was going, and still is going on, on some Schutzhund places in the name of "Real Dogs" and Schutzhund.


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## carmspack

aggression is assertiveness , wanting to control a situation, it does not have to be defensive (reactive) but can be offensive .
A herding dog is active in controlling the flock , the drive is on and active without the sheep straying or running off . It is the active control which keeps things stable and calm. 
When I put a dog out in to service I don't want a hyper active , edgy , jumpy , defense dog out there. I want a dog with an inner awareness of power , quiet confidence. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> aggression is assertiveness , wanting to control a situation, it does not have to be defensive (reactive) but can be offensive .
> A herding dog is active in controlling the flock , the drive is on and active without the sheep straying or running off . It is the active control which keeps things stable and calm.
> When I put a dog out in to service I don't want a hyper active , edgy , jumpy , defense dog out there. I want a dog with an inner awareness of power , quiet confidence.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I absolutely agree with that.


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## onyx'girl

Mrs.K said:


> One bad apple? Seriously? One bad apple?
> 
> THOUSANDS of people have used the stick to beat the crap out of dogs to build nerves and make them "stronger".
> 
> It wasn't just one bad apple. Go to the local clubs in Germany. The small clubs and watch how people train OUTSIDE training hours. You will be surprised how much cruelty you still come across and how many still beat the crap out of dogs.
> 
> I am not sure if some of you just don't know any better or if you don't believe it but apparently none of you has any idea of what was going, and still is going on, on some Schutzhund places in the name of "Real Dogs" and Schutzhund.


This is also dogs being sent over from the US to get titles on the showlines in a short period of time? Too bad that they feel this is the best path to take, regardless of the reason. I've seen dogs that are compulsively trained and every exercise shows the lack of enthusiasm when just heeling, sitting or platzing.


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## Jax08

Mrs K. - I'm just curious as to your experience. How many dogs have you trained and titled in SchH? It would appear that you have fairly vast experience from your posts.

Why would you choose a prey driven dog over a dog with a correct balance of drives? Simply because they are easier to train as you stated or are there other reasons that would make you choose that? I have to wonder about that as my prey driven dog gets to caught up in the "prey" to pay attention at times.


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## carmspack

that dog should not have a sch h 1 . It is a lovely dog. The woman handler is a dedicated , dog loving person. hmmm I wonder what she would accomplish if she had a good strong working gsd and went through sch h ?? 
the decoy is a friendly man . His work is over sensitive and over accommodating to the dogs softness (which is breed appropriate) . The decoy looked very contstrained and worried with the one pass of the baton over the dogs back. 
Look at how sweet the dog is returning with the bumper, oops I mean sleeve , to the handler. Now what if the decoy ran up on the dog and tried to steal the sleeve back. A gsd would turn and defend , be possessive. I bet you any thing that if that scenario played out the golden would tuck tail , drop the sleeve and run -- it would not stand and challenge the decoy.
I make this statement based on basic behaviour that I see on the video. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje

Whiteshepherds said:


> So what are you doing to help bring Schutzhund back to where you think it should be? How do you plan to stop the rock from rolling over the edge of the cliff before it's too late?


Not training dogs that obviously don't enjoy it, or need a severely watered down version to enjoy it.

Not training strictly for titles or points.

Not training strictly in prey (obedience and protection).

Not getting star-struck over top competition dogs or really flashy and precise dogs that may not necessarily be the *best* dogs, but learning as much as possible about all the nuances in temperament and looking into solid dogs that produce well and actually produce what I want and not just a 5 minute obedience or protection routine.

Not JUST doing SchH routines, but other styles of protection, suit work, and other "sports" altogether (agility, flyball, lure coursing...).


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Mrs K. - I'm just curious as to your experience. How many dogs have you trained and titled in SchH? It would appear that you have fairly vast experience from your posts.
> 
> Why would you choose a prey driven dog over a dog with a correct balance of drives? Simply because they are easier to train as you stated or are there other reasons that would make you choose that? I have to wonder about that as my prey driven dog gets to caught up in the "prey" to pay attention at times.


Personally I have not titled any dog in Schutzhund as I have stated many times before. I've been at many many clubs though and grew up within the Schutzhund szene and watched my entire life how they are trained, how they are worked, listened to everything the adults were talking about back then, went to many many trials and competitions, even to Bundessiegerpruefungen and Shows. 

I know the west german working line pedigrees (I have no experience with Czech or East German lines which I always say), my father taught me what to look for, I know about the different traits of some of the dogs and my father knew most of them personally and I simply listened and learned a lot lately. I also know that to many people want a dog that they purely couldn't handle because the dog would be bigger than themselves. 

My expertise lies in socialization and rehabilitation of a dog. That is what I always did and what I like doing. I love taking an abused dog and rehabilitate him. I love seeing them grow and losing their fear, starting to enjoy life again. Yukon is not the first abused dog I worked. One of the reasons I don't like the world of Schutzhund is because of the attitude a lot of people have. I don't have any desire to do Schutzhund on a competition level. Not because I can't do it but because I don't like how people treat each other. I don't like that pseudo-rough n' tough attitude, don't like how they talk behind each others back about the dogs, don't like how many treat their dogs as a "thing" and once it's not good enough they get rid of it and buy the next one. I understand it's necessary to climb the ladder but that doesn't mean I have to like it. 

It's the same with horses. I don't like how horses are treated in the competition world. I am simply not a fan of pressure and torture to get a living being to do what you want them to do. 

Many clubs will help you as long as you are no threat to them but as soon as you become a real competition... what I know about the training methods back then is not a secret. 

The world of SchH is a totally different world. It can be a great experience but I've had my fair share. I am no threat to anyone, I am not competition nor do I desire to be a competition. I much rather work in SAR, something that has a real meaning to me. A ribbon has no value to me. The real value lies in looking at my dogs and see how much they are improving and how much fun they have to work and to know that we are doing it to save peoples lifes, later down the road and not to collect ribbons.


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## valreegrl

Just something thought provoking from a laywoman who is not well versed in the sport, but has read a bit about it's history/origination/current skill set........

The Golden is titled SchH1, correct? It was judged competent in the sport at that level. But maybe not competent to compete and title at SchH2 or SchH3. Are the levels not a marker as to the progress each dog is able to reach?


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## Jax's Mom

Chris Wild said:


> <sigh> And this is the other argument based mostly on misinformation, or assuming one bad apple has spoiled the whole bunch, that pushes the bar lower and lower and lower.


I see from your sig that your dogs have way more letters after their names than mine do, and I don't claim to know the first thing about training a dog but it doesn't take a genius to recognize when dog's are getting beaten. I grew up in eastern Europe and very familiar with their training methods. Up until about 2 decades ago, if you fed your dog "dog food" let alone give him a treat, they'd look at you like you're an idiot. I saw many schH trained dogs and can't say any of them were trained using nearly the same methods that are used here.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Why would you choose a prey driven dog over a dog with a correct balance of drives? Simply because they are easier to train as you stated or are there other reasons that would make you choose that? I have to wonder about that as my prey driven dog gets to caught up in the "prey" to pay attention at times.


I should have stated that the correct mix of drives is important. However a lot of people think that defense driven dogs are the hard-dogs. I've been at a club where they purely worked dogs in defense and than said "I have a rough&tough dog, look he's even going at me."

What I am trying to say is that I do not want to have a dog that is bigger than me and that I can't handle because he's got to much of everything. 

I want a stable dog, with lots of prey-drive but not so much that he's locked in prey (as you've said). I want a naturally aggressive dog that I can do bitework with but not so much that I can't handle that dog anymore and some people think it's cool to have one of "those real dogs" without knowing how to actually handle them. I know I couldn't and I have no problem to admit that. I know my boundaries very well and know what I am capable off and what I am not capable of doing.


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## Jax08

I'm sorry but that doesn't really answer my question other than how many dogs you've titled. You have made many comments on training SchH dogs and you stated previously that you would prefer a prey drive dog. Watching and growing up around something really isn't the same as doing it. While you can learn a lot from watching, what exactly is your experience in training dogs in SchH? Why would you choose a prey drive dog? Weren't you just asked to hold training classes at your club recently?

I'm not exactly sure how horses and ribbons fit into my questions?


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> I see from your sig that your dogs have way more letters after their names than mine do, and I don't claim to know the first thing about training a dog but it doesn't take a genius to recognize when dog's are getting beaten. I grew up in eastern Europe and very familiar with their training methods. Up until about 2 decades ago, if you fed your dog "dog food" let alone give him a treat, they'd look at you like you're an idiot. I saw many schH trained dogs and can't say any of them were trained using nearly the same methods that are used here.


that is what I experienced as well. However there is a big change going through the Szenes but it's still out there. I know for a fact that a very "reputable" club with a very well known VDH person, that sits in the higher levels is still using those methods because I witnessed it personally. It is the same person that told me to shoot Yukon.


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## Jax08

Sorry..we posted at the same time. But now I'm really confused. In one post, you say you have no desire to do SchH and the other you describe what you want and what you can handle. I"m tired and going to bed.


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## selzer

All we saw was two clips of a GR doing some pretty lousy bitework. The helper was not even trying to put any stress on the dog at all. But OK, I am kind of glad he did not. This is not what GR are made for. But why not show the other clips. Schutzhund has three major parts, where is the obedience clip. Oh, nothing kool about that, Goldens are known to do excellent in obedience, not news-worthy no one wants to see that. But why not the tracking portion. Why are we all obsessed with the sleeve? It would have been just as cool to see the golden tracking. 

Oh yeah, Goldens are used for SAR, so they have to be obedient, they have to be able to track. They are also used as seeing eye dogs, so they are pretty intelligent too. They are hunters, and retrieving birds is their main deal. They are great dogs, just the way they are made. Good for therapy, good for seeing eye, good for SAR. 

But do you want to see one herding sheep? That is not what they are made for. And bititng the sleeve -- that is not what their genetic code is all about. 

Years and years of breeding went into GRs and getting that temperament what it is. Too many people want GRs in GSD bodies -- it is a problem. Making GSDs more like GRs, having them out retrieving birds well, that would be just as disturbing. If you want a retriever, get a retriever, if you want a shepherd, get a shepherd. GSDs were designed with a dual purpose in mind, both shepherding and military/guarding. Shepherds have to protect, they have to move the sheep, protect the sheep, keep the sheep out of the crops, and off the road. They have to use their brains, and work with shepherds. They have to be courageous.

Schutzhund tries to test their obedience, agility, tracking, and protection ability, and is suited to a shepherd. It is also suited to other working/guarding breeds. But it is not suited for pug dogs, yorkies, golden retrievers, English Setters, or even mastiffs. 

A mastiff was bred NOT to bite an intrudor, but to hold him until the game keeper came. So seeing a mastiff run at and bite into the sleeve would also be disturbing. It is going away from the nature of the dog, to encourage it to do what years of breeding has tried to steer away from. 

Why would we want to do that?


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> I'm sorry but that doesn't really answer my question other than how many dogs you've titled. You have made many comments on training SchH dogs and you stated previously that you would prefer a prey drive dog. Watching and growing up around something really isn't the same as doing it. While you can learn a lot from watching, what exactly is your experience in training dogs in SchH? Why would you choose a prey drive dog? Weren't you just asked to hold training classes at your club recently?
> 
> I'm not exactly sure how horses and ribbons fit into my questions?


Okay, first off we need to clarify what we are both talking about. When I talk about hard dogs, I am talking about those that are bigger than you and that not a lot of people could handle, like my fathers dog used to be. Secondly, I am not with a Club. I am with an SAR team and yes, I was asked to hold the obedience classes by a very well respected and reputable SAR person that has about 20 years of experience and GSDElsa can vouch for that because she was there when she asked my other German Team Mate and me to do the Obedience. 

I don't have to do Schutzhund to know what I want in my dog. I don't need an overly aggressive and hard dog to do SAR. I need a stable dog, sound nerves, with lots of prey&hunt drive. If I had a dog like Gildo, Olko or Satan, I couldn't handle those dogs in SAR nor could I probably handle them in Schutzhund either because those are dogs that were much bigger than me and most of the handlers I've seen in the past two years. THAT is why I prefer a prey-driven dog. They are much more predictable and easier to handle.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Sorry..we posted at the same time. But now I'm really confused. In one post, you say you have no desire to do SchH and the other you describe what you want and what you can handle. I"m tired and going to bed.


Because I don't need to title a dog in Schutzhund to know what kind of traits I want in a dog and to know what I can handle. 

Jax, I've been growing up around German Shepherds all my life and grew up around dogs like Gildo, Olko and Satan. While we used to play, take them for walks and could trust those dogs I could have NEVER handled any of them in Schutzhund. There are simply dogs out there that only a small amount of handlers can actually handle. 

I am not doing competition SchH but that doesn't mean that I am not out there doing bitework. I am going to the Greg Doud Workshop at the 26th by the way. Not because I want to compete but because I can only learn from going there and because my dogs enjoy it. I enjoy doing it for fun and for training purposes, building drive, obedience, I LOVE TRACKING and Yukon is pretty darn good at it. He loves tracking and has an awesome nose (which our State Coordinator noticed right away, by the way).


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Not because I can't do it but because I don't like how people treat each other. I don't like that pseudo-rough n' tough attitude, don't like how they talk behind each others back about the dogs, don't like how many treat their dogs as a "thing" and once it's not good enough they get rid of it and buy the next one. I understand it's necessary to climb the ladder but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
> 
> It's the same with horses. I don't like how horses are treated in the competition world. I am simply not a fan of pressure and torture to get a living being to do what you want them to do.


All the things about SchH you don't like exist in SAR too. Gossip?! Yikes it never ends. Talking behind peoples' backs? Daily. A dog doesn't work out for SAR? Re-home and onto the next one. If that's what you don't like about SchH you do have blinders on if you don't see it in the SAR world. From being at a SchH club all the time and doing SAR I actually think that attitude seems worse in SAR--at least from what I've seen.

Sandra, I think you were either around people who were a small majority and nasty at that or you are remembering things incorrectly. I haven't shown much in the dog world, but I have competed horses about a level down from the Olympic level. I have competed several times at international championchips. I have trained with 2 Olympic gold medalists. I have ridden horses quite a bit when I lived in Germany. The horse world is NOTHING like how you are describing it. Are there people that act in that manner? Yes, there are people that act in that matter no matter WHAT you are doing. NO...that is NOT the norm for the horse show world from beginner to Olympic levels, I'm sorry. You are DEFINITELY taking a "few bad apples spoiling the bunch" attitude because it's simply not true that that kind of attitude and treatment is rampant. You can't get a horse to reliably, consistently, and safely jump a 5'6" jump or a 4'9" trakehner by torturing them if they don't want to. You need a horse that WANTS to do it and is in their character make-up. 

No matter how hard someone tortures a 14.2 stocky, bit-butted QH...they are not going to be able to force that horse to go around and jump a Grand Prix course and win. Unless, of course, they watered down (aka lowered) those jumps a couple feet to accmodate that bit-butted beauty.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> All the things about SchH you don't like exist in SAR too. Gossip?! Yikes it never ends. Talking behind peoples' backs? Daily. A dog doesn't work out for SAR? Re-home and onto the next one. If that's what you don't like about SchH you do have blinders on if you don't see it in the SAR world. From being at a SchH club all the time and doing SAR I actually think that attitude seems worse in SAR--at least from what I've seen.
> 
> Sandra, I think you were either around people who were a small majority and nasty at that or you are remembering things incorrectly. I haven't shown much in the dog world, but I have competed horses about a level down from the Olympic level. I have competed several times at international championchips. I have trained with 2 Olympic gold medalists. I have ridden horses quite a bit when I lived in Germany. The horse world is NOTHING like how you are describing it. Are there people that act in that manner? Yes, there are people that act in that matter no matter WHAT you are doing. NO...that is NOT the norm for the horse show world from beginner to Olympic levels, I'm sorry. You are DEFINITELY taking a "few bad apples spoiling the bunch" attitude because it's simply not true that that kind of attitude and treatment is rampant. You can't get a horse to reliably, consistently, and safely jump a 5'6" jump or a 4'9" trakehner by torturing them if they don't want to. You need a horse that WANTS to do it and is in their character make-up.
> 
> No matter how hard someone tortures a 14.2 stocky, bit-butted QH...they are not going to be able to force that horse to go around and jump a Grand Prix course and win. Unless, of course, they watered down (aka lowered) those jumps a couple feet to accmodate that bit-butted beauty.


It does happen anywhere you go. However, with the right team it's much easier to do it and I like my team. If there is any badmouthing I don't know about it. Our team might not be the best and it needed a major overhaul but we all stick together and it's fun. 

You are right, the higher you get, they less people can afford cruel methods. The worst riders are actually the ones on the lower level that don't know what they are doing and get frustrated easily. It's the same in the SchH world. The ones, competing in the top levels simply can't afford using those methods, which is why I said you have to go to the smaller clubs, watch them outside training hours and see it for yourself. 
Both my sisters ride in M and S class. They are awesome horsemen, always fair but if you look at the trailriders and the once that compete in the lower classes, it's a totally different world. And I fully understand that not all people are like that. All I am saying that it is still out there and that people still mistreat their pets because they get frustrated and don't know better. 
The same goes for dog handlers. And if everything was that rosy and glorious there wouldn't be a need for shelters, would it? I don't even want to know how many failed Schutzhund Dogs end up in Shelters. Or what happens to all those failed and injured racing horses? 

Does it happen anywhere? Probably, can I change it? Probably not but I can stop going to a club, stop supporting a club by not being a member. I can talk about it, raise awareness. Do they care? They could care less about me or anyone else because they will keep to continue what they do. 

As for SAR and getting another dog. IF you want to do SAR so bad, than make sure you have the right dog from the beginning instead of getting a pet dog and then decide to do SAR. Chances are that your dog won't make the cut. If you want to continue with K9 SAR, yes you will need another dog unless you want to stay as a Grid Searcher. If any of my dogs won't make the cut, I wouldn't have a problem to wander somewhere else and try something more suitable. I can still be part of the team as a Grid Searcher. I like SAR for SAR not because it's cool to be a K9 Handler. Until you and I have not certified our dogs, we are Grid Searchers, plain and simple 

I am not turning a blind eye on what is happening in SAR, however with the right team, you can have a lot of fun and I believe that I have the right team. We are all determined and put a lot of work into this, to make it work. Especially the twin-handlers work very very hard and do their best. I've never seen a team that sticks together like that, ever before and because C.B. said they need good handlers, I stayed. In the beginning I was thinking about joining your team but C. was right. It would be a pain to drive that long of a distance and since my team showed that they are willing to work, try new methods and knew that something would have to change, we all sticked together and make it work together. I love that team, especially since they actually helped me settle down in the US. 

Yeah, there is a lot of politics involved but I tend to stay out of that. I leave that to somebody else. If I step on somebodies toes by speaking my mind, so be it but so far I have not had any problems. If anyone badmouths me... so be it. I've been through enough bullying in my life to take it and I give it right back. 

There are simply clubs and teams out there that are poisonous and that you don't want to be a part off. 

Let's take the Liberty Schutzhund Club in Albany for example. I could actually see myself being a member of that club. What I've seen so far was very promising and I like the overall attitude. 

I think things over here run differently because there are not so many clubs as in Germany. You have to drive 2+ hours and it may be the only club in your region. So you have to make it work, you have to stick together, you have to be dedicated because if you don't it'll fall apart and you lose the team. Whereas in Germany you sometimes just have to walk over the street, down the road or to the next town. Heidelberg alone has more than three Schutzhund Clubs. Mannheim... I can't even count how many Mannheim (including the suburbs) has. 

Yes, you will have the badmouthing pretty much everywhere you go. It's inevitable but if it comes to cruelty to the dog... that is something I do not want to be affiliated with.


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## Catu

GSDElsa said:


> All the things about SchH you don't like exist in SAR too. Gossip?! Yikes it never ends. Talking behind peoples' backs? Daily. A dog doesn't work out for SAR? Re-home and onto the next one. If that's what you don't like about SchH you do have blinders on if you don't see it in the SAR world. From being at a SchH club all the time and doing SAR I actually think that attitude seems worse in SAR--at least from what I've seen.


Soooo true.
SAR move a lot of money, donations for equipment to travel, etc. and more than money the opportunity to go to bigger searches international operations etc and if you thing that works being the best and having the best dogs you live in a little beautiful world of Disney... yet. Egos in SAR are something big!

And in SAR dogs ARE tools, you like it or not, the goal is the task, not dog training, not even the handlers. In my team if a handler can't move smoothly in the rubble or in the woods or can't hike a bigger hill then he/she is invited to do desk tasks or help with the radios.

I myself washed out a dog and rehomed, left behind another dog at the team when I had to move and just a couple weeks ago took the decision to say good by to another dog of the team and will keep doing no matter if it hurts a handler feelings because I don't want mediocre dogs out there. I'm heartless.


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## Mrs.K

Catu said:


> Soooo true.
> SAR move a lot of money, donations for equipment to travel, etc. and more than money the opportunity to go to bigger searches international operations etc and if you thing that works being the best and having the best dogs you live in a little beautiful world of Disney... yet. Egos in SAR are something big!
> 
> And in SAR dogs ARE tools, you like it or not, the goal is the task, not dog training, not even the handlers. In my team if a handler can't move smoothly in the rubble or in the woods or can't hike a bigger hill then he/she is invited to do desk tasks or help with the radios.
> 
> I myself washed out a dog and rehomed, left behind another dog at the team when I had to move and just a couple weeks ago took the decision to say good by to another dog of the team and will keep doing no matter if it hurts a handler feelings because I don't want mediocre dogs out there. I'm heartless.


And with me, that is okay. I would happily do the desk work or stay as an obedience trainer and do that. I don't live in Disney world. To be honest, while my dogs are actually suited for SAR I don't know if I am. I am not a light person, I have a syndrom that makes it very hard for me to lose weight and while I am a very active person I will probably not get through rubble as easily as an athletic person does. Let's face it. I might not make the cut because of my weight, it does limit me. I am working hard to reduce it and I am actually looking into surgical options because I am so tired of being out there, working and still not getting anywhere. 

I don't need to go on international operations just so I can say "I've been there and done that." all I want is to do something that makes sense to me. Where I can give something back. EVERYBODY IS IMPORTANT in SAR. 
SAR can not run smoothly without the desk guy and/or Grid Searchers. If my duty would be the desk work, I would do it. 

Anybody else, who wouldn't want to do it or does it because of their ego, does SAR for the wrong reason. That's my personal opinion and what I believe.


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> To be honest, while my dogs are actually suited for SAR I don't know if I am. I am not a light person


Funny, I was told I was too small for SAR. I don't see why they're turning people off like this. In an emergency situation, are they REALLY going to look at someone and say "no thank you, you're too big/small to be searching for people, please go home." I'm sure for every dog handler, there are probably 10 other untrained people around perfectly willing to help move objects or lift people.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> Funny, I was told I was too small for SAR. I don't see why they're turning people off like this. In an emergency situation, are they REALLY going to look at someone and say "no thank you, you're too big/small to be searching for people, please go home." I'm sure for every dog handler, there are probably 10 other untrained people around perfectly willing to help move objects or lift people.


Which is why I like my team. They didn't tell me that I am not suited because of my weight. However, I am worried that it could become a problem later down the road because I am not sure if I could truly hold up like somebody that is athletic. But than again, we have a super heavy smoker and if I look at some of the Grid Searchers... there are people heavier than me. So if they can do it. I can do it too. I always stayed active just to stay active. I didn't want to lose the ability to go on a hike despite my weight and staying active helped me stay at a certain level and not gaining more and more weight than I already have, even though I did gain weight ever since I came here. Mainly because i was stuck in the house for so long...


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## W.Oliver

I am a GSD guy. I appreciate what historically the breed is, and I admire the tradition of SchH as a breed test.

Having said that, I can also see the general value in the training and the challenge it offers dog and handler. It is an accomplishment.

Given all the views expressed, what about this topic in terms of organizations?

SV, USCA, those are breed organizations for the GSD. What about the DVG? Would this issue be as significant if this were a DVG club? Does the DVG care what breed you take the field with?

If the Trainer is happy working the dog (any dog) to the level it can perform, and if the Helper is willing to provide the time, what is the harm?.......is this really any different than a Sieger show? 

If you are of the opinion SchH should only be for the elite, then form your version of the Navy Seals and keep the plebeians out.

I am of the view the more the merrier, and the cream always come to the top.


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## Anja1Blue

W.Oliver said:


> I am a GSD guy. I appreciate what historically the breed is, and I admire the tradition of SchH as a breed test.
> 
> Having said that, I can also see the general value in the training and the challenge it offers dog and handler. It is an accomplishment.
> 
> Given all the views expressed, what about this topic in terms of organizations?
> 
> SV, USCA, those are breed organizations for the GSD. What about the DVG? Would this issue be as significant if this were a DVG club? Does the DVG care what breed you take the field with?
> 
> If the Trainer is happy working the dog (any dog) to the level it can perform, and if the Helper is willing to provide the time, what is the harm?.......is this really any different than a Sieger show?
> 
> If you are of the opinion SchH should only be for the elite, then form your version of the Navy Seals and keep the plebeians out.
> 
> I am of the view the more the merrier, and the cream always come to the top.


Per the DVG website "the goal of DVG is the training and titling of dogs, any and all breeds of dogs, including mixed and non-registered." In the USA, DVG clubs are essentially limited to Schutzhund, but in Germany it has a broader appeal, encompassing sports like agility and flyball. If someone showed up with a Golden here, it would be greeted with skepticism and surprise I would guess, but there is nothing in the rule book saying it shouldn't participate. 
_____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## GSDElsa

Jax's Mom said:


> Funny, I was told I was too small for SAR. I don't see why they're turning people off like this. In an emergency situation, are they REALLY going to look at someone and say "no thank you, you're too big/small to be searching for people, please go home." I'm sure for every dog handler, there are probably 10 other untrained people around perfectly willing to *help move objects or lift people*.


Well, you hit the nail on the head. I dont' think size has anythign to do with it, per say. But you do need to be able to move objects, lift people, and hike up a mountain. If you're not physically fit and strong enough to do that, that is a problem, I'm sorry. You're a volunteer, but a professional at the same time. 

Perhaps people get complacent in some parts of the US. We're in a relatively flat area, but we can be sent anywhere in the state. If someone isn't fit enough to get dropped in a helicopter in the middle of the Adirondacks and hike out, it's a problem. Small or large--you should be able to do it. But i don't think everyone feels that way. Maybe it's because grew up in the Rockies and most searches and rescues are done in terrain where myself (an avid outdoorswoman) would have trouble going.

Interestingly enough...this ties into this discussion. Should the SAR standards for dogs and humans be lowered because people want to be included and have "fun"? Or shoudl they stay the same because it is the right thing to do? 

Sometimes people get blinders on to fighting for certain things in their field, but think that things should be bent in another.


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## Mrs.K

Anja1Blue said:


> Per the DVG website "the goal of DVG is the training and titling of dogs, any and all breeds of dogs, including mixed and non-registered." In the USA, DVG clubs are essentially limited to Schutzhund, but in Germany it has a broader appeal, encompassing sports like agility and flyball. If someone showed up with a Golden here, it would be greeted with skepticism and surprise I would guess, but there is nothing in the rule book saying it shouldn't participate.
> _____________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> Anja SchH3 GSD
> Conor GSD
> Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


Exactly. The DVG is the DVG and the SV is the SV. 

As for the appeal, it all depends on the region you are in. The "Verein fuer Hunde" I was with had Schutzhund, Agility, Turnierhundesport and basic obedience and puppy classes. That was it. It was a VDH all breed Club. In my area it was impossible to find anything like Flyball or K9Freestyle. The most common things you will find, even at SV Clubs is Agility, Turnierhundesport and Obedience. They need those members and activities to survive. 

In the Federal State I've lived in there are 22 DVG Clubs and none of them were anywhere close where I have lived. I would have LOVED going there.


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## Liesje

I don't do SAR and the reason I don't is because I personally take it very seriously. I cannot make the appropriate time commitment. Also I'd prefer to have a slightly smaller dog. I can lift and carry Nikon (76lbs) if I have to but probably not very long over difficult terrain if he were to be seriously injured. To me SAR is a serious commitment from both the dog and handler, not something I'm comfortable doing for fun. As it is, our local team requires a lot of training and time put in by the handler alone before they will even evaluate a dog.

I guess I am not one that thinks every dog and person should automatically be able to do whatever they want. There *are* activities more suited for this, like lower level agility (the CPE lower levels are easy and fun!), rally-obedience, pre-novice AKC obedience, etc. But we shouldn't have to start watering down everything else in order to be all-inclusive. I don't expect my dogs to be stellar at bird hunting or anything like that. Nikon is starting his lure coursing runs soon and they have the all-breed separate from the lure coursing breeds. That pisses some people off but is perfectly fine with me. There are two different titles he can earn as a GSD. If I want to do more in the future, I'll get a sight hound. I was reading through a discussion on another board about weight pull and several people complained that this sport is becoming too inclusive as well. I agreed with them that you should not be able to show up with a dog that has had zero training, slap a harness on him, and get a title in one weekend.


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## Wildtim

W.Oliver said:


> I am a GSD guy. I appreciate what historically the breed is, and I admire the tradition of SchH as a breed test.
> 
> Having said that, I can also see the general value in the training and the challenge it offers dog and handler. It is an accomplishment.
> 
> Given all the views expressed, what about this topic in terms of organizations?
> 
> SV, USCA, those are breed organizations for the GSD. What about the DVG? Would this issue be as significant if this were a DVG club? Does the DVG care what breed you take the field with?
> 
> If the Trainer is happy working the dog (any dog) to the level it can perform, and if the Helper is willing to provide the time, what is the harm?.......is this really any different than a Sieger show?
> 
> If you are of the opinion SchH should only be for the elite, then form your version of the Navy Seals and keep the plebeians out.
> 
> I am of the view the more the merrier, and the cream always come to the top.


Here's how I see it and I'll borrow your analogies.


Schutzhund shouldn't be for Just the Navy Seals of dogs, Or the Green Berets if you prefer. It also isn't basic training. I think of it more like advanced infantry. You take the whole army of German Shepherds and siphon off the logistics guys and the administrative one because they can't hack it, you are left with some extremely good ground pounders, but not yet the special forces.

DVG schutzhund is more like inter-service competition. Sure the Seals can compete and the marines do well but few guys in the Air force can keep up, and then there is the Coast Guard.........When you are talking schutzhund more breeds are the coasties than are not, thats just the way it should be.

Sure the cream can rise to the top, but more and more today it seems like it is getting stirred back in if not run through a homogonizer then water added. The resulting mess is still sold as heavy whipping though and that ruins the whole idea of what it is.


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## Liesje

W.Oliver said:


> If the Trainer is happy working the dog (any dog) to the level it can perform, and if the Helper is willing to provide the time, what is the harm?.......is this really any different than a Sieger show?


To me, the second part of this is key. Personally, I really don't care if someone wants to work their Golden in a watered down, prey version of SchH bitework, if the dog seems to enjoy it and the club and helper don't care. However a lot of clubs have very limited resources, many struggle to find ONE decent helper let alone several. I'd not be comfortable bringing such a dog to my club because at present we have one helper. A personal can only offer so much, physically. I'd rather see second rounds of protection on solid dogs than dabbling with non-traditional breeds and having to change the program to suit their temperament. I do bring my pudding-soft mutt out to our club on occasion when no one is home to let him out, but I "work" him (if you can call it that) only in obedience and usually do it while everyone is still settling in or while the helper is suiting up for protection so I'm not wasting people's time. I don't bring Kenya to SchH anymore even though she is a working line dog. I know enough tracking and obedience to do this with her on my own time, and she has never and will never do protection. I think a lot of people look at these issues from the perspective of golden (pun intended) ideals for what the breed is/isn't, or how much fun THEY want to have with THEIR dogs, but for many of us the reality is that in order to keep a solid club going we all have to be realistic and as respectful of each others' time and resources as we can be and sometimes that means setting limits on the number of dogs or what type of dogs the club is willing to work with.


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## Jax08

Tim...were you a Seal? LOL


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## Castlemaid

Love your analogy, Tim!


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## Jax's Mom

GSDElsa said:


> Well, you hit the nail on the head. I dont' think size has anythign to do with it, per say. But you do need to be able to move objects, lift people, and hike up a mountain. If you're not physically fit and strong enough to do that, that is a problem, I'm sorry. You're a volunteer, but a professional at the same time.
> 
> Perhaps people get complacent in some parts of the US. We're in a relatively flat area, but we can be sent anywhere in the state. If someone isn't fit enough to get dropped in a helicopter in the middle of the Adirondacks and hike out, it's a problem. Small or large--you should be able to do it. But i don't think everyone feels that way. Maybe it's because grew up in the Rockies and most searches and rescues are done in terrain where myself (an avid outdoorswoman) would have trouble going.
> 
> Interestingly enough...this ties into this discussion. Should the SAR standards for dogs and humans be lowered because people want to be included and have "fun"? Or shoudl they stay the same because it is the right thing to do?
> 
> Sometimes people get blinders on to fighting for certain things in their field, but think that things should be bent in another.


I think people are losing the plot. 

Are people "less suited" for SAR, taking something away from those who are "just right'? 

Will one extra otherwise useless body hinder a group of people from sifting through rubble by educating themselves in first aid and searching ? 

Is there a waiting list for SAR that people like us are clogging up?

Is the SAR world now worse off because I happen to be smaller than average but have an interest in helping people?


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## holland

It is what it is -and one golden earning a Sch I -did not ruin the entire sport of schutzhund


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## GSDElsa

Jax's Mom said:


> I think people are losing the plot.
> 
> Are people "less suited" for SAR, taking something away from those who are "just right'?
> 
> Will one extra otherwise useless body hinder a group of people from sifting through rubble by educating themselves in first aid and searching ?
> 
> Is there a waiting list for SAR that people like us are clogging up?
> 
> Is the SAR world now worse off because I happen to be smaller than average but have an interest in helping people?


1. Yes, some people are not suited for SAR. If you've never walked more than a mile in your life, hate being outdoors and getting dirty, don't like blood....then you aren't suited for SAR.

2. Yes, 1 person can hinder a group. Yes, it can be dangerous for people to be out there than have no business to be. Yes, if someone completely unsuited for SAR is out there doing it it can turn into a rescue situation for the people doing the searching. And if you can't help carry a person out of wherever, then yes, it is a problem. 

3. Yes, people get turned away from SAR groups all the time so I guess you could say there is a "waiting list."

4. I said that size--small or large--has nothing to do with it in my opinion. If that's truly the only reason they had to turn you away, then it's BS. However, if you're 4'10" and can't carry a 15 pound pack over 5 miles of hills then yes, your strength and physical ability is a problem. 

Terrain plays a big part in all this. Somone not as strong might not be as much of a concern in Kansas as it is for a SAR team based out of Yakima, WA.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> I think people are losing the plot.
> 
> Are people "less suited" for SAR, taking something away from those who are "just right'?
> 
> Will one extra otherwise useless body hinder a group of people from sifting through rubble by educating themselves in first aid and searching ?
> 
> Is there a waiting list for SAR that people like us are clogging up?
> 
> Is the SAR world now worse off because I happen to be smaller than average but have an interest in helping people?


With our team... there is no waiting list at all. The team is lucky to have people that are interested and dedicated to actually do it. I have three dogs that are very suitable but I am not sure if I am cut out, however with me, it's a question of cardio training. I am strong enough, I am stronger than many and I can lift things. All I have to do is to strengthen my muscles, lose the weight and do lots of cardio. So I know where I stand and what my problem is. I've had backproblems mainly because of my weight. 

However, if it would turn out that I can't do it I can still offer my knowledge and stay as a trainer and concentrate on doing the obedience part so those that are cut out can actually concentrate on training their dogs to go out into the field. There is a place for everyone and sometimes helping people means to stay back and enable those, that are suited to go into the field. I'd still do my part to help "people".
I will not get myself or anyone else into danger just because I am not suited but still want to be out there. 

However, me being out there bringing others into danger is slightly different from a Golden doing Schutzhund. Nobody is bending the rules, or endangering anybody by doing Schutzhund with a Golden. Schutzhund is a sport. SAR is saving lives and being in hazardous, sometimes very dangerous environments.


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> I have three dogs that are very suitable but I am not sure if I am cut out, however with me, it's a question of cardio training. I am strong enough, I am stronger than many and I can lift things. All I have to do is to strengthen my muscles, lose the weight and do lots of cardio. So I know where I stand and what my problem is. I've had backproblems mainly because of my weight.


You will be fine as long as you can get your stamina up to hike over rough terrain. Lots of biking, lots of low impact treadmill and elliptical work and you should be good to go I think. You're an active person and that is half the battle.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jax's Mom said:


> Is the SAR world now worse off because I happen to be smaller than average but have an interest in helping people?


Did you ask about becoming part of their tactical support team?


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## Chris Wild

Liesje said:


> I guess I am not one that thinks every dog and person should automatically be able to do whatever they want. There *are* activities more suited for this, like lower level agility (the CPE lower levels are easy and fun!), rally-obedience, pre-novice AKC obedience, etc. But we shouldn't have to start watering down everything else in order to be all-inclusive. I don't expect my dogs to be stellar at bird hunting or anything like that. Nikon is starting his lure coursing runs soon and they have the all-breed separate from the lure coursing breeds. That pisses some people off but is perfectly fine with me. There are two different titles he can earn as a GSD. If I want to do more in the future, I'll get a sight hound. I was reading through a discussion on another board about weight pull and several people complained that this sport is becoming too inclusive as well. I agreed with them that you should not be able to show up with a dog that has had zero training, slap a harness on him, and get a title in one weekend.


:thumbup:


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## Jax's Mom

Whiteshepherds said:


> Did you ask about becoming part of their tactical support team?


No because I was told off the bat that I was too small, my dog sucked, and if I wasn't prepared to get rid of one of my current dogs, I was too much of a "bleeding heart" for it anyway. 
I'm not really much of a quitter in anything I do, but if that's the attitude someone has that I'm supposed to be relying on to gain knowledge and competance, I'm likely wasting my time with that particular group.
If anyone has any other suggestions to a particular group, I'd love to hear it


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> You will be fine as long as you can get your stamina up to hike over rough terrain. Lots of biking, lots of low impact treadmill and elliptical work and you should be good to go I think. You're an active person and that is half the battle.


Oh, I can hike. Done that with my dogs all year round, except for the last three months. However, there is a difference between hiking and hiking in FULL GEAR. So stamina it is and now that the weather is breaking and hopefully holding I have to work on mine and the dogs stamina. That is a very important factor that a lot of people underestimate. A dogs stamina is just as important as the handlers.


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## GSDElsa

Jax's Mom said:


> but if that's the attitude someone has that I'm supposed to be relying on to gain knowledge and competance, I'm likely wasting my time with that particular group.
> If anyone has any other suggestions to a particular group, I'd love to hear it


Yep, if both parties aren't feeling each other right off the bat then it's best to move on.

No idea about SAR groups in Canada, but just scour the web and see what you can find and talk to other ones. Maybe contact Carmen and see if she know of any others since she's one province over from you.


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## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Oh, I can hike. Done that with my dogs all year round, except for the last three months. However, there is a difference between hiking and hiking in FULL GEAR. So stamina it is and now that the weather is breaking and hopefully holding I have to work on mine and the dogs stamina. That is a very important factor that a lot of people underestimate. A dogs stamina is just as important as the handlers.


Just take your SAR backpack out with you as if it's a security blanket every time. 

UGH...I'm dreading our first backpacking trip. With hubby's surgery this winter we didn't do hardly anything this winter. Usually we're out on long day-long snowshoe adventures with packs all winter long. 

We want to do Phelps Mountain at the end of April...we'll see!!


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## carmspack

the key question to handing over any dog into real service is this --

If I or my loved one were lost , would I feel comfortable and confident that I will be found? 

If I or my loved one were to board this plane, would I feel comfortable and confident that there are no explosives on board.

If I or my loved one were victims of a home invasion , would I feel comfortable and confident that the dog would go forward and deal with it . (not as someone else said they would protect the dog) .

Personalize it and be honest . That is one of the filters that I have before recommending a dog for service. If there is even the slightest shadow of doubt or hesitation, then that dog gets reassigned to a lesser calling . 

I was asked to organize a voluntary search group. Sweet well meaning people who wanted to contribute to the greater good , and have fun with their dogs.
Zero understanding of the task at hand. Zero understanding of the dogs required.
One person had a great pyrenese that was pretty dense , would walk over a steak without realizing it. The people did 100% of the work . They knew victim was hiding in barrel by the wooden skid pile . They would walk the dog over , show the barrel , tap the barrel and the dog was still looking at clouds in the sky. 
I had to run the term and then show the charitable foundation that wanted this organized the results. I did what I was commissioned to do and then left . This group was featured on local tv stories now and again when a "feel good" clip was needed. 
Some time after the need for SAR was recognized and a voluntary police run group sprouted up and the provincial police using rcmp standards for certification invited civilians to SAR , provided that they certify under these rigorous standards.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

What I find interesting is this. I remember somebody telling a story on here about a dog, that did not have the same drive as other dogs. She was told that she won't ever title her dog in Schutzhund. So off she went to another club that wasn't as serious about Schutzhund and she managed to title her dog. 

She then went back to the other club, brought a cake and had them eat their own words. Everybody applauded her for still managing to get her dog titled. If that retriever was a German Shepherd many would say "AWESOME JOB for getting him titled despite what everybody says."

In my book it's discrimination on the highest level to send somebody away just because"it's not the right breed." 
If it is a German Shepherd club, I wouldn't have any problems to send somebody away, since it's a specific breed club. If it was a DVG or otherwise, all breed club, I'd have a big problem if somebody sent me away just because I don't have, what others think, the right breed. 

It takes courage to take a dog that nobody thinks is suitable and still manage to put a title on him, despite the odds.


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## carmspack

Mrs K it can be another breed, Dutch Shepherd, Rottweiler, Dobermann, Malinois, Terv, or mix - or even some of the Cane Corso type "estate guard dogs" or mix of any of the above , but it should come from a breed type where protection is integral to the character of the dog.

What if someone wanted to bring a King Charles Spaniel to schutzhund , a lap dog , or a pug , is that okay just because someone wants to.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> What I find interesting is this. I remember somebody telling a story on here about a dog, that did not have the same drive as other dogs. She was told that she won't ever title her dog in Schutzhund. So off she went to another club that wasn't as serious about Schutzhund and she managed to title her dog.
> 
> She then went back to the other club, brought a cake and had them eat their own words. Everybody applauded her for still managing to get her dog titled. If that retriever was a German Shepherd many would say "AWESOME JOB for getting him titled despite what everybody says."
> 
> In my book it's discrimination on the highest level to send somebody away just because"it's not the right breed."
> If it is a German Shepherd club, I wouldn't have any problems to send somebody away, since it's a specific breed club. If it was a DVG or otherwise, all breed club, I'd have a big problem if somebody sent me away just because I don't have, what others think, the right breed.
> 
> It takes courage to take a dog that nobody thinks is suitable and still manage to put a title on him, despite the odds.


For the umpteenth time, I'm going to reitterate this and then I'm done because apparently there is no interest in hearing or understanding, just continuing with perceptions even when everyone says it's being taken wrong.

It is NOT breed discrimination it is temperament discrimination. The only reason breed is even in the conversation is that #1 it happened to be a Golden that started the thread and #2 this happens to be a breed that isn't even supposed to have the right temperament for this venue in the first place. 

But the bottom line is, had a video of a GSD been posted showing the same level of work, the same topic would still be going on lamenting the downfall of SchH as a test and saying that the dog shouldn't be titled, not because the owner doesn't deserve credit for his/her hard work, but because if the test were administered properly a dog lacking the suitable temperament for the work wouldn't be earning a title. It has nothing to do with breed. People are just as upset when it's an unsuitable GSD getting titled. Actually usually moreso because in that case it'll probably be bred, which is less of a worry with an off breed. Heck, the same conversation but revolving around GSDs DOES happen at least a couple times a year. It's almost guaranteed to after the next round of Sieger show performance tests gets posted on the internet, as it has every year in the past.

One can applaud a handler (and helper and club) for going above and beyond, putting in way more effort than others would to help along an unsuited dog, and still be saddened by the fact that the current rules and judging allowed a dog with obvious problems to title. 

I've titled several dogs, and helped coach many others to titles. So I know first hand how much work goes into it even with a dog who has all the right traits, and how much more goes into it with a dog who doesn't, and knowing that I can't not appreciate someone's effort. I am always happy for someone when they title their dog and I don't think I've ever met anyone in SchH who hasn't been forthcoming with genuine and sincere "congrats and great job" when someone has managed to title. But that doesn't mean it's without mixed feelings at times. I can be happy for the handler, dog, and club that pulled together to accomplish something great, but still at the same time be sad about what it says about the current state of SchH, and even more saddened for the breed as a whole. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.


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## Whiteshepherds

Jax's Mom said:


> No because I was told off the bat that I was too small, my dog sucked, and if I wasn't prepared to get rid of one of my current dogs, I was too much of a "bleeding heart" for it anyway.


I think if you want to be involved in SAR you have to look at it as a team effort and be willing to do whatever job you're asked (and qualified) to do. Not everyone doing SAR uses a dog, walks in the woods or carries a backpack. Some people do paperwork, set up posts, make phone calls etc. etc. etc. 

Not everyone in SAR has a dog. It's like being part of the fire department, not everyone gets to drive the truck.


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## Mrs.K

> One can applaud a handler (and helper and club) for going above and beyond, putting in way more effort than others would to help along an unsuited dog, and still be saddened by the fact that the current rules and judging allowed a dog with obvious problems to title.


That I can totally understand and sympathize with, however there were only a few people who actually appreciated the effort the handler has made and everybody else said how wrong it is to title a golden without looking at the great job the handler had done. If you had put the post from the beginning like you did right now, I would have never felt as offended as I actually did.


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## Jax08

She did...as did many others...


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## Jax's Mom

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think if you want to be involved in SAR you have to look at it as a team effort and be willing to do whatever job you're asked (and qualified) to do. Not everyone doing SAR uses a dog, walks in the woods or carries a backpack. Some people do paperwork, set up posts, make phone calls etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Not everyone in SAR has a dog. It's like being part of the fire department, not everyone gets to drive the truck.


I would have accepted that as a logical, constructive suggestion... I'd be more than happy to do any of those tasks... I'm currently a _not-for-profit office wench_ so it wouldn't be too much of a mental leap for me to push papers for next to no pay LOL
I just didn't appreciate the attitude of someone (in this case the SAR team) dismissing me and my dog as someone who is just in to to... "_drive the truck_"


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> She did...as did many others...


Than I have misread it. Have to go back and re-read.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> I would have accepted that as a logical, constructive suggestion... I'd be more than happy to do any of those tasks... I'm currently a _not-for-profit office wench_ so it wouldn't be too much of a mental leap for me to push papers for next to no pay LOL
> I just didn't appreciate the attitude of someone (in this case the SAR team) dismissing me and my dog as someone who is just in to to... "_drive the truck_"


I felt the same way about the Clubs I went to with my dogs, back in Germany. Telling somebody to shoot a dog is not the way you want to be welcomed at any club at all, and it is highly offensive. 

So is "You are to fat for us." which I have heard as well, or "We don't need you, you only slow us down." just because my dog needs more work than others or "We don't need people that don't want to compete, get lost."

It's the overall attitude of how people are looked down at just because they have a different dog, different goals and expectations.


----------



## Liesje

I'm guessing that part of my insensitivity to these issues is that I was a competitive gymnast for years. Talk about something you can either do or you can't, and people constantly telling you that you are fat, slow, stupid, no good... As a result, I've found that in switching to training dogs (which was a somewhat feeble attempt at replacing that part of my life), I respond far better to "military" style coaching and someone constantly nit-picking everything I'm doing *wrong*. I respond to criticism better than praise, I get embarrassed (or even confused) when praised and I have to catch myself so I don't come off as unappreciative or impolite.


----------



## GSDElsa

Jax08 said:


> She did...as did many others...


Yes that is pretty much what chris, myself, and others have been trying to say this while time.


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I'm guessing that part of my insensitivity to these issues is that I was a competitive gymnast for years. Talk about something you can either do or you can't, and people constantly telling you that you are fat, slow, stupid, no good... As a result, I've found that in switching to training dogs (which was a somewhat feeble attempt at replacing that part of my life), I respond far better to "military" style coaching and someone constantly nit-picking everything I'm doing *wrong*. I respond to criticism better than praise, I get embarrassed (or even confused) when praised and I have to catch myself so I don't come off as unappreciative or impolite.


Interesting... I never understand why we "train" people with negative reinforcement even though it's proven that positive reinforcement works much better, even with people. 

I was trained like that as well, the only thing it accomplished was me avoiding training and resisting everything that had to do with it.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Yes that is pretty much what chris, myself, and others have been trying to say this while time.


Read through the first two pages. It mainly consists of how disturbing and wrong it is to see a golden being titled.


----------



## Jax's Mom

Liesje said:


> I'm guessing that part of my insensitivity to these issues is that I was a competitive gymnast for years. Talk about something you can either do or you can't, and people constantly telling you that you are fat, slow, stupid, no good... As a result, I've found that in switching to training dogs (which was a somewhat feeble attempt at replacing that part of my life), I respond far better to "military" style coaching and someone constantly nit-picking everything I'm doing *wrong*. I respond to criticism better than praise, I get embarrassed (or even confused) when praised and I have to catch myself so I don't come off as unappreciative or impolite.


I can see where you're coming from... Lucky for you, you're good at something you're interested in... the only things I've been able to excel at so far in life, are ones I haven't been terribly interested in... the few things I am interested in learning, I've become the underdog in because I have no background or experience in it, and it isn't exactly something one can learn at home in their basement.
I'm pretty sure if someone could simply _tolerate_ my ineptitude while I learn, I too, could start importing dogs that are exactly what I want and titling them in all directions.


----------



## GSDElsa

THe first two pages--not including my own posts....

#'s
19 20 27 30 41 43 48 71 73 77 just going through them quickly.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> I can see where you're coming from... Lucky for you, you're good at something you're interested in... the only things I've been able to excel at so far in life, are ones I haven't been terribly interested in... the few things I am interested in learning, I've become the underdog in because I have no background or experience in it, and it isn't exactly something one can learn at home in their basement.
> I'm pretty sure if someone could simply _tolerate_ my ineptitude while I learn, I too, could start importing dogs that are exactly what I want and titling them in all directions.


I'd start with clubs that have nothing to do with Schutzhund or SAR at all and build mine as well as the dogs self-esteem to gain confidence in yourself and the dog. They more you see that you actually accomplish something, the more confidence you gain in what you do. It's all about attitude and confidence. If you are confident in who you and your dog are you come off much different. It has a lot to do with psychology. I've been the same way. Always the underdog, doesn't matter what I accomplished. 
I used to be the German Vize Champion in Martial Arts and the South German Champion and I was still laughed at, despite my accomplishments. It did a lot of damage to who I was because I never believed that I was good enough in something or even valuable.

However, ever since I have Yukon and went my own way I realized that I am good at something. That I have a gift, despite what everyone says, that I am valuable and that I have a sound dog sense and know how to work an abused dog and turn him into something that nobody would have ever expected of him. And I already did that as a teenager. 
My sister told me that even my parents thought I was good at that. Even my parents admitted that this is really something I am good at but I was never told that as a teenager. 
One thing you have to do is to believe. Believe in yourself and your dog, don't let them degrade you to something that you are not. Don't be the underdog. Stand up and do what you want to do but do it for the right reason. Not because you want to show them, but because you want to do it for yourself. 

It's what I have realized. It took me a long time to realize it. You don't need to proof anything to anyone but yourself.


----------



## Vandal

The point is not about the wonderful lady with the wonderful Golden. Nor is it about how some people in SchH behave. As Carmen pointed out, there are GSDs who now perform SchH in a very similar manner to the Golden and yes that's a problem that has been discussed ad naseum on this board. The complaint is about SchH for the umpteeth time. 

There was a time that only a dog who could actually DO SchH could pass. Might be difficult, for some people who want to believe that all people did back then was beat up on dogs, but some of us spent huge sums of time, effort and money learning about dogs and how to work with what they brought GENETICALLY out on the field. Some have spent decades learning about the DOGS only to watch people try to turn SchH into something where that understanding is now frowned upon. We learned to work with who each individual dog was and we learned how to read them. We also learned that not all dogs could or SHOULD do SchH. There are so many reasons for this I will not be spending the time to explain. Not only because I don't have the time but because it is wasted on the mentality that is being displayed over and over in this thread. 

Nowadays. there are not many people bothering to understand their dog and I could make the point that the dog are "suffering", only in a different way. I see the methods now being forced on dogs because it is more acceptable to the people who are so hellbent on "feeling good" about THEMSELVES and using their dog for that purpose. The methods are not right for the dog and because of that, the dogs are confused, bored and yes, stressed. This is a case of genetics and methods that do not fit the dog. The people are also trying to cram their round peg of a dog in a square hole by asking them to do things that they are not genetically programmed to do. I see it constantly with people there waving food in their dog's face and being frustrated by the lack of enthusiasm in their dog. They take dogs out and tell themselves that because I am using these "humane" methods, and I work SO hard with my dog, I am a wonderful person. They do not look at who their dog is because they are too fricking busy worrying about what people think about THEM. They will tell you when and where and how you are allowed to train your dog in order to "preserve the dog's spirit" yet they have NO understanding that the dog in front of them doesn't have the genetic ability to do the job that is being asked of them. They will tell you they are just having FUN with their dog when the dog is not having fun at all. The dogs keep trying to please their owners the best way they can though, so, the people take that and tell themselves how happy their dogs are doing things that people, ( who HAVE taken the time to learn what stress looks like in a dog), can see is stressing their dog. What a bunch of CRAP. They are trying to put it into the dog what he does not possess genetically when, of course, that is impossible.

Carmen wrote: "Look at how sweet the dog is returning with the bumper, oops I mean sleeve , to the handler"

I laughed out loud at Carmen's comment but I also pictured that dog doing what he was bred to do. I could imagine how much fun and enthusiasm that dog could show doing what he was bred to do instead of being put into a situation that requires everyone to bend over backwards trying to make it "fun", when it will never really be fun for that dog.


----------



## W.Oliver

This whole thing just feels like the cool kids picking on the nerds. To me, this is all hitting home in regards to my first GSD. She was a POS....that I loved dearly. We trained twice a week for years....and we always sucked. But we went....we trained...and we never titled at anything. For no other reason than the value and satisfaction of the training itself.

I assume speaking with respect to SchH


Liesje said:


> I guess I am not one that thinks every dog and person should automatically be able to do whatever they want. There *are* activities more suited for this, like lower level agility (the CPE lower levels are easy and fun!), rally-obedience, pre-novice AKC obedience, etc. But we shouldn't have to start watering down everything else in order to be all-inclusive.


I take from this, your view is that not all dogs are suited for SchH, and it seems to piss you off.



Liesje said:


> Nikon is starting his lure coursing runs soon and they have the all-breed separate from the lure coursing breeds. That pisses some people off but is perfectly fine with me. There are two different titles he can earn as a GSD. If I want to do more in the future, I'll get a sight hound.


I take from this, it is your view that your GSD is suited for lure coursing, although sight hound owners may not agree, as it seems to piss them off.



Chris Wild said:


> One can applaud a handler (and helper and club) for going above and beyond, putting in way more effort than others would to help along an unsuited dog, and still be saddened by the fact that the current rules and judging allowed a dog with obvious problems to title.


To me, this is apples (training) and oranges (titling). Meeting the requirements for titling, and setting the requirements for titling are two issues. If the requirements allow dogs with obvious problems, it is an administrative and judging issue that should not result in displaced aggression on an team we deem unworthy for even training.....otherwise, we may find ourselves unable to lure course our GSD. 

As for admittance and utilization of resources....that is a subjective club issue that can be debated until the cows come home.

I believe that SchH should be an extremely difficult breed evaluation of the GSD that very few can achieve.....but all are welcome to attempt.


----------



## PaddyD

Mrs.K said:


> Check this out.
> 
> Now thats a Golden I'd own.
> 
> YouTube - Dear Jack vom Eifelgestüt 1


I don't get it. What's the big deal? The dog ran up and grabbed the sleeve and walked off with it. The dog was just having fun. Whose dogs can't do that?


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## lhczth

Anne and Carmen, excellent posts. 

I could care less if other breeds want to title in SchH. Just don't destroy the test to accomadate them. Don't lower the standard to make their people feel good about themselves (and this applies to GSD also).


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## pets4life

i agree with ann and carmen also breeds should stick to what they are meant for why try to make a breed into something it is not?

sure flukes happen but it should not be something that is promoted

also why seek a golden or lab for protection a gsd is just as cute 

i agree like maybe someone will want a dog that has protection in them that will look really cute and cuddly at the sametime some might not think that of a rottie or doberman but gsd def fit that bill also well to me at least lol the black and tan show gsd probably have a more cute and cuddly look to most people i assume


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## Liesje

W.Oliver said:


> I take from this, your view is that not all dogs are suited for SchH, and it seems to piss you off.
> 
> 
> 
> I take from this, it is your view that your GSD is suited for lure coursing, although sight hound owners may not agree, as it seems to piss them off.


Wayne, the opposite. I'm not at all bothered that most dogs (maybe even most GSDs?) are not suited for SchH. I mean, I'm bothered for the BREED's sake, but not for my sake, being an owner and wanting to do it. If it doesn't suit the dog, I don't do it.

My GSDs are not suited for true lure coursing and I'd be kidding myself to say they are. It's not just about having prey drive and running fast. Sight hounds and other more appropriate breeds have the correct structure for making better turns. They also run together and hunt together. My dog has a lot of prey drive and runs fast, but so what? He simply can never compete with a good sight hound, and I'd never let him lure course with a pack or another dog. Luckily, the AKC and UKC are allowing all-breed runs, but this is not the same titles or competition as the actual lure coursing dogs. I'm perfectly fine with this, in fact I'd be fine if they didn't do it at all. I would not be receptive to doing "fun runs" for protection on a walk-in basis for non-working breeds. At the events we attend (conformation), they often do lure coursing and allow other dogs to do "fun runs" for $5. We only do it for fun. After a certain amount of passing runs, a GSD can get a CA (3) or CAX (12). These are different from the titles the lure coursing dogs are working towards.

I would not expect to see sight hounds titling in SchH and have no problems with sight hound people not expecting or wanting GSDs to do actual lure coursing meets. If I wanted to be heavily involved in lure coursing, I'd get a sight hound.


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## holland

Wait -you forgot Chris was her post excellent too? or just mediocre?


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## lesslis

"Wait -you forgot Chris was her post excellent too? or just mediocre?"

One of maybe 3 or 4 that's made sense of this thread. Her posts actually educate those that want to learn from an experienced GSD handler.


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## Mrs.K

Well, I guess at one point we just have to agree to disagree. I don't see any harm in a Golden performing as a Schutzhund nor do I think that people should be excluded from participating in a sport that they want to participate and have fun with. Even if they suck, as long as they and the dogs are happy there is no harm. 

As for Schutzhund being watered down. Don't blame the handler! 

SV Schutzhund being watered down has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with a Golden participating and titling with the DVG. It's two entirely different organization and the Golden has NOTHING to do with what is going on within the SV and Shepherd Szene.


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## selzer

Today I was at an obedience run-through, and there was a young Golden Retriever there. I watched him because you could not NOT watch him. Outside the ring, and inside the ring, the dog was going bananas for this tug toy. His owner was pounding him on the side and pulling and tugging with this toy like there was no tomorrow. And it was seriously amping up the dog.

While it was in the ring, she had it in one hand, and at every full stop she let him tug and play with it. At every turn, the dog circled her several times -- I am talking novice obedience here, this is not what we do in novice. The owner put the tug on the table and did the off lead handling with the dog, at the end of which the dog went barreling out of the ring and up on the table to retrieve its tug. She played with it more. During the the recall, she had it in her hand, and walked away from the dog and put it on the floor beyond her, and turned to face the dog. The dog barreled in to the front of her, she told him to finish, and the dog went around her and grabbed the tug. So we were obliged to watch them go through that again with the tug in her back pocket.

This dog was like a border collie on speed. This was not normal. My brother has a Golden and it was a pretty crazy puppy, but not crazy like this dog. The tugging itself would not be what you would want a bird dog to do with its quarry. You would want to promote a soft mouth and a gentle give. 

It seriously looked like this person was more getting her Golden ready for schutzhund, than for obedience/rally, or field trials. I have never witnessed a display quite like this, including all that pounding on the dog's side, which I take it was affectionate, but if the woman did that to me, I would have turned and bit her hard. 

Frankly it was disturbing, because I have trained with Golden Retrievers, with a woman who raised them and trained them and other peoples dogs for obedience and agility and hunting trials, and this was just not normal temperament for a GR.


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## onyx'girl

Nothing wrong with building drive to get an enthusiastic performance(even if it needs polishing up)! 
The dog was happily engaged with his handler. 
And in the field he may just transition to soft mouth/ dogs are very situational. Though I don't train in the AKC obedience venues, so this was probably over the top behavior?


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## carmspack

I agree Selzer and to further comment I don't like that training.

The dog was not "with" the person , working with the person. This was plain operant conditioning .

I know ckc / akc obedience having many high in trials, Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction and the honor of having top GSD in the nation as per the annual GSDCofC specialty show -- Grand Victrix 1981.

Just the other week , I sold one of my male pups from my current litter to a k9 police officer . I commented on his training ability to psdontario Mike because here this person had a career in police k9, and also having been the trainer of a GSD that also went top dog GSDCofC - Grand Victor -- .

I never ever ever resorted to that kind of toy focus for ckc ring, schutzhund , or ring. I want dogs that work with me, for me , work out of joy to work and a mutual admiration loop. We admire and respect each other and are partners in a job that needs to be done.

That does not sound like the field trial dogs that golden retrievers are supposed to be . I do have a friend who competes in field trials -- had a little retriever named Cherry Bomb -- Master Hunt titles. I would have to ask her what the dog attained.
Brilliant dog. I saw her when she was 10 - 12 weeks and the dog could work and was naturally "birdy" because that was how she had been bred , and her ancestors before her.
That is what we are missing in all breeds.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer

We had a hunting line English setter that set on the cat at ten weeks, in the field he went naturally birdy. It was instinct and very exciting to watch. But the poor dog was as dumb as a rock. It took him seven years to learn how to back himself out of a corner. Sad. But he had a soft mouth and was birdy. I do not know if everyone understands what a soft mouth is. But Pippy had one. He could pick up and deliver an injured bird without hurting it. Everything he did with his mouth was soft. You could not do that tug thing with him.


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## carmspack

these are good points. Cherry Bomb and your English Setter (beautiful dogs by the way) displayed inherent , untrained, instincts.
I would have been impressed if the original sch h golden retriever had proven himself to be the vey best , most natural , hunt dog , excelled in a field meant for him, tested and appraised against his peers as it were.

If Mrs K you think that sch h was so right for this dog , would you think it is right or good to expect the golden retriever to be expected to do herding?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

They should at least be given the opportunity to try. 

If a GSD owner can take his dog to a luring seminar for hound dogs a Golden should be able to undergo a Herding Test. 

Again, it's a free country and anyone should have the opportunity to try whatever he wants to do with his dog. Who am I to tell somebody "No, you can't try."


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Today I was at an obedience run-through, and there was a young Golden Retriever there. I watched him because you could not NOT watch him. Outside the ring, and inside the ring, the dog was going bananas for this tug toy. His owner was pounding him on the side and pulling and tugging with this toy like there was no tomorrow. And it was seriously amping up the dog.
> 
> While it was in the ring, she had it in one hand, and at every full stop she let him tug and play with it. At every turn, the dog circled her several times -- I am talking novice obedience here, this is not what we do in novice. The owner put the tug on the table and did the off lead handling with the dog, at the end of which the dog went barreling out of the ring and up on the table to retrieve its tug. She played with it more. During the the recall, she had it in her hand, and walked away from the dog and put it on the floor beyond her, and turned to face the dog. The dog barreled in to the front of her, she told him to finish, and the dog went around her and grabbed the tug. So we were obliged to watch them go through that again with the tug in her back pocket.
> 
> This dog was like a border collie on speed. This was not normal. My brother has a Golden and it was a pretty crazy puppy, but not crazy like this dog. The tugging itself would not be what you would want a bird dog to do with its quarry. You would want to promote a soft mouth and a gentle give.
> 
> It seriously looked like this person was more getting her Golden ready for schutzhund, than for obedience/rally, or field trials. I have never witnessed a display quite like this, including all that pounding on the dog's side, which I take it was affectionate, but if the woman did that to me, I would have turned and bit her hard.
> 
> Frankly it was disturbing, because I have trained with Golden Retrievers, with a woman who raised them and trained them and other peoples dogs for obedience and agility and hunting trials, and this was just not normal temperament for a GR.


Why is it disturbing? Because a dog enjoys playing tug? Are we that far that we only think a GSD should play tug? 

Playing tug in obedience doesn't have to have anything to do for prepping them for Schutzhund if the handler has no desire to do Schutzhund. It's there to build drive, to engage the dog with you and to give them a reward they are looking forward to. Playing tug in obedience can be a powerful tool. 

You can use a ball, tug whatever the dog enjoys best and if that Golden enjoys playing tug, then let him play tug. If that is what works for the handler than they should be able to do it. After all it's a positive reward. 

Playing tug is NOT a bad thing.


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## selzer

I would not expect everyone else to watch me play tug and pound on my dog. But bird dogs are supposed to have a soft mouth. That is very important. Do you have bird dogs Mrs. K, have you ever? We had one for fifteen years, and he would NEVER have tugged something with any of us, not even my neice who could order him about at age two (that neice is now almost eighteen). 

Anyhow, different breeds are suited to different things. If you see an English Setter in Schutzhund, then there is something seriously wrong with the English Setter -- that is simply not their temperament, not at all. Golden Retrievers are a little more versatile than an English Setter, but whatever. 

And this woman was amping her dog up. Most retrievers, and certainly this one, need to be toned down to get them to function properly, not amped up. They have enough energy and insanity, they do not need any help in that area.

The dog went through the heeling pattern today, and when they got to the slow, it jumped up and bit its owners arm. It did not NQ her, she actually won her class, but her dog was a spaz. I saw a lot of Goldens working today, and they certainly have energy and drive, but none of them were crazy like this one. 

Playing tug is not a good thing for dogs expected to have a soft mouth.


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## onyx'girl

So should a herding breed be discouraged from retrieving?


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> So should a herding breed be discouraged from retrieving?


touche!


----------



## Xeph

> Playing tug is not a good thing for dogs expected to have a soft mouth.


I honestly don't think it matters if the dog isn't going to be a bird dog. In addition to that, perhaps the dog DID have a soft mouth, and the handler encouraged it as a puppy to have a harder grip, because they were going to participate in the obedience venue and wanted to use a tug reward.

You cannot change the genetics, but within reason, you can change the behavior.

A soft mouth is important if you're hunting with the dog, or in terms of bite inhibition, but otherwise? *shrugs*


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## Castlemaid

Playing tug has nothing to do with a soft mouth. Have you never seen Labs or Goldens playing tug with each other? They can tug something fierce!!!


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## Konotashi

I just read through the first page, but I intend to get a BH on Ozzy, and if he was big enough (or if they would adjust the size of the equipment), then you best believe I'd do my dandiest to get a SchH title on him. He's a Pomeranian. Just because it's a breed test not for Poms, does that mean that I shouldn't do it? "It's for 'big, intimidating, scary breeds only,' so I'll pass." No. 

It's a sport. Anyone can try. Doesn't mean everyone will succeed or get a title, but everyone can try.


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## gagsd

Konotashi said:


> I just read through the first page, but I intend to get a BH on Ozzy, and if he was big enough (or if they would adjust the size of the equipment), then you best believe I'd do my dandiest to get a SchH title on him. He's a Pomeranian. Just because it's a breed test not for Poms, does that mean that I shouldn't do it? "It's for 'big, intimidating, scary breeds only,' so I'll pass." No.
> 
> It's a sport. Anyone can try. Doesn't mean everyone will succeed or get a title, but everyone can try.


Maybe we can add a Schutzhund 1 LITE title, and a Schutzhund, The Whole Prey Model. 
That is what we did in Horse Eventing for those that could not compete at the higher levels. We added Amoeba (sp?) and Tadpole divisions.


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## Jax08

Ya know...I think my Himalayan can earn a SchH title. Doesn't he look like he has what it takes?


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## gagsd

Schutzhund..... from scratch????!!


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## Jax08

:rofl:


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## ayoitzrimz

I think it's great that the owner of that dog saw a stronger mouth and different drives and channelled it to the correct avenue. 

With that said, I think SchH dogs have different characteristics than your "ideal" retrieving dog and a retriever that can do schutzhund is a retriever that shouldn't be breed because it deviates from the standard established for retrieving dogs for that specific purpose.

In other words, yes I think a herding dog shouldn't be able to compete in retrieving if he was well breed just like I think a retrieving dog shouldn't be able to compete in SchH or ring sport. Not because he shouldn't be allowed to but because he shouldn't be physically able to or even willing to or both.


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## holland

We had a Siamese when I was a kid and my father taught her the retrive-not with a dumbell though-with my mothers' curlers -she was a pretty smart cat


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> They should at least be given the opportunity to try.
> 
> If a GSD owner can take his dog to a luring seminar for hound dogs a Golden should be able to undergo a Herding Test.
> 
> Again, it's a free country and anyone should have the opportunity to try whatever he wants to do with his dog. Who am I to tell somebody "No, you can't try."


If there is limited time and resources, I disagree. My GSD lure courses but cannot do the same trials and titles as a sight hound. I've been to herding tests that will only test herding breeds. I had my mutt tested and sent the instructor photos. We did it privately and she agreed to do it but the other ones I've been to would not have accepted it (and I would have been OK with that, but I feel it never hurts to ask!).

Again, my main issue with this whole thing is seeing dogs that are clearly uncomfortable doing SchH and then their owners giving these ridiculous justifications. If the dog does not have the temperament to come out and do SchH and open up in a few sessions (at the right age), then IMO there's nothing to be gained by doing Schutzhund that the owner can't do better off somewhere else. If the dog lacks self-confidence, needs more obedience, should be better socialized, must focus on the owner more...there are other activities for that.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should. And yes it's a free country, but clubs are also free to set limits on their events because of time, resources, etc. That is why there entry limits for dog shows, requirements that must be met before a dog can enter a certain event, etc. I fix computers and just because someone asks me to fix one doesn't mean I will, and they can't force me. Sometimes it's just not worth the effort.


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## Jax's Mom

gagsd said:


> Maybe we can add a Schutzhund 1 LITE title, and a Schutzhund, The Whole Prey Model.
> That is what we did in Horse Eventing for those that could not compete at the higher levels. We added Amoeba (sp?) and Tadpole divisions.


Isn't that how they invented woman's golf? 
"Women can do anything men can"... As long as they have their own teams and get to tee off closer to the green


----------



## TitonsDad

Jax's Mom said:


> Isn't that how they invented woman's golf?
> "Women can do anything men can"... As long as they have their own teams and get to tee off closer to the green


 
Ahh, the famous Red tees. I wonder why they picked red as the color. 

It's okay, I was forced to use the woman's Tee area for many years as I developed my golf game.


----------



## carmspack

g o l f gentlemen only ladies forbidden , the ultimate boys club. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## TitonsDad

carmspack said:


> g o l f gentlemen only ladies forbidden , the ultimate boys club.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Are you married? :wub:


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I would so pay to see Ozzy get a Sch title!

Wasn't there a video someone posted of a Alaskan Malamute doing Sch?


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## DunRingill

Konotashi said:


> I just read through the first page, but I intend to get a BH on Ozzy, and if he was big enough (or if they would adjust the size of the equipment), then you best believe I'd do my dandiest to get a SchH title on him. He's a Pomeranian. Just because it's a breed test not for Poms, does that mean that I shouldn't do it? "It's for 'big, intimidating, scary breeds only,' so I'll pass." No.
> 
> It's a sport. Anyone can try. Doesn't mean everyone will succeed or get a title, but everyone can try.


No problem, if the helpers give real stick hits and real pressure, then go for it. And that means for ALL dogs. Otherwise it's nothing more than a fancy obedience routine.


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## codmaster

carmspack said:


> I don't think it is awesome to see off breeds in schutzhund .
> It also says something about what schutzhund has become.
> Carmen


What do you think of a GSD doing upland bird hunting and retrieving? I saw one who was very very good at it. He was very steady to the shot and an excellent soft mouthed retriever.

Why not if the individual dog (and owner) are up to it!


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## selzer

Konotashi said:


> I just read through the first page, but I intend to get a BH on Ozzy, and if he was big enough (or if they would adjust the size of the equipment), then you best believe I'd do my dandiest to get a SchH title on him. He's a Pomeranian. Just because it's a breed test not for Poms, does that mean that I shouldn't do it? "It's for 'big, intimidating, scary breeds only,' so I'll pass." No.
> 
> It's a sport. Anyone can try. Doesn't mean everyone will succeed or get a title, but everyone can try.


BH, no problem, go for it. Schutzhund, well, now I wouldn't, not with a dog who is not bred for guarding/herding/working.

I would not want to take my dog in for something they were terribly disadvantaged for because of their size, weight, instincts, or temperament. I would not demand that my GSD be allowed to participate in Teacup Agility. I would not want to let my GSD join a fox hunt. I would not enter my GSD in earth dog trials. And as much as I think have a sled team of GSDs would be cool, I would not enter them into a sled dog race. They would not have a prayer of winning, and if you are just sledding for the fun of it, then why would you enter a race? I can take not winning, but I sure like being in the running for the top place. I understand that my dogs have different strengths and weaknesses, and I kind of like the idea of playing to their strengths.


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## codmaster

"and yes, Schutzhund stopped being a test of breed worthiness a long time ago."

So can any one summarize what has changed in Sch to explain the above statment/

Is it because the trials are faking it and the judges don't really judge? So that dogs who shouldn't pass are now passing? 

Is it just the protection results that everyone is complaining about? Or is the tracking and obedience equally bad now? 

Is it the helpers that are not challenging the dogs in training/trials?

Do all the dogs or most of them think it is a game instead of life and death?

A very long time ago, i had a helper when i attended Sch training with my two GSD's who explained the difference (then!) between police dog training and Sch (he did both as he was a head trainer for some Police depts. in the NYC area) as just that - difference between a sport with very definite rules (i.e. bite just the sleeve) and one where it was life or death on the street.Keep biting till the dog is called off and bite anything you can find not just a big padded sleeve.

Wonder which of these would be a better test of "breed worthiness" for the GSD?


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## codmaster

BTW, I think it would be cool to have GSD's in a dog sled race.

They may not win but just think how they would look doing the "flying trot" as the whole team was doing it in step as they raced to the finish line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> A very long time ago, i had a helper when i attended Sch training with my two GSD's who explained the difference (then!) between police dog training and Sch (he did both as he was a head trainer for some Police depts. in the NYC area) as just that - difference between a sport with very definite rules (i.e. bite just the sleeve) and one where it was life or death on the street.Keep biting till the dog is called off and bite anything you can find not just a big padded sleeve.


It depends on what is "in" the dog. Some SchH dogs are the real deal and would put most police dogs to shame. I've seen some prey oriented police dogs, like the video of the one that bit a suspect's jacket, the suspect took off the jacket, and the dog stood there clawing at the jacket while the suspect got up and grabbed his weapon. :crazy: Even at our club we have a wide range among GSDs, some working in all prey, some nicely balanced, some with an issue here or there, some that are mostly defense.... A good dog is a good dog and that will be evident regardless of the venue and the rules.


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## codmaster

Repeat the question below.

So can any one summarize what has changed in Sch to explain the above statment?

Is it because the trials are faking it and the judges don't really judge? So that dogs who shouldn't pass are now passing? 

Is it just the protection results that everyone is complaining about? Or is the tracking and obedience equally bad now? 

Is it the helpers that are not challenging the dogs in training/trials?

Do all the dogs or most of them think it is a game instead of life and death?


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## onyx'girl

All of the above...


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## ayoitzrimz

Liesje said:


> It depends on what is "in" the dog. Some SchH dogs are the real deal and would put most police dogs to shame. I've seen some prey oriented police dogs, like the video of the one that bit a suspect's jacket, the suspect took off the jacket, and the dog stood there clawing at the jacket while the suspect got up and grabbed his weapon. :crazy: Even at our club we have a wide range among GSDs, some working in all prey, some nicely balanced, some with an issue here or there, some that are mostly defense.... A good dog is a good dog and that will be evident regardless of the venue and the rules.


That would be my dog, unfortunately... definitely a "sport dog" as they call him - all prey and play.

That being said, he has shown a protective instinct when it counts (aggressive "thug" who didn't see a dark sable dog in the dark  ) so I don't know what he'll do but on the field it's all play for him...


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## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> Repeat the question below.





codmaster said:


> Is it because the *trials are faking it and the judges don't really judge? So that dogs who shouldn't pass are now passing? *
> Is it just the protection results that everyone is complaining about? Or is the tracking and obedience equally bad now?
> Is it the *helpers that are not challenging the dogs* in training/trials?
> Do all the dogs or *most of them think it is a game* instead of life and death?




The average puppy buyer doesn't have an extensive background in bloodlines. So if all of the above is part of the problem in Sch., how much can someone looking for a dog trust the pedigrees and titles people keep telling them to look for when buying a pup??


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## DunRingill

codmaster said:


> Is it because the trials are faking it and the judges don't really judge? So that dogs who shouldn't pass are now passing?


I'm sure that happens. Heck it's easy to find fake stick hits on youtube, where you KNOW that if the helper got serious the dog would be outta there! 

I remember one of the first trials I went to....it was back when there was gunfire test in the BH. Dog (malinois) left heel position and trotted in a BIG nervous circle around the handler every time the gun was fired. The judge tested the dog multiple times, reaction was always the same. Passed anyway, because it was "just" a BH.



> Is it just the protection results that everyone is complaining about? Or is the tracking and obedience equally bad now?


I'm the wrong one to ask, I've always been surprised at what passes in the obedience portion.



> Do all the dogs or most of them think it is a game instead of life and death?


For some dogs, the fight with the helper IS a game....they love the fight! Many dogs, presented with a decent fight, wouldn't do very well. And I'm not excluding my own dogs from that statement! (Tho my old girl who never trialed, SHE loved a good strong fight!)


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## DunRingill

Whiteshepherds said:


> The average puppy buyer doesn't have an extensive background in bloodlines. So if all of the above is part of the problem in Sch., how much can someone looking for a dog trust the pedigrees and titles people keep telling them to look for when buying a pup??


and therein lies a big problem. There's a Schutzhund title, and then there's a title in schutzhund. Titles after a dog's name don't automatically mean the dog has fight. For example I've seen a few show line dogs that did excellent bitework, but I've seen a lot that did the bare minimum and needed "helper work lite" in order to pass. My first dog was a showline dog (mix of old American lines and Kirschental) and in general he did NOT do good bitework, tho he did a very good job for his SchH1. OTOH that's a dog that I knew would bite for real if someone broke into my house or vehicle!

No matter what, the titles SHOULD mean there's a certain level of trainability, and that's especially important for a family pet. 

Hate to say it, but maybe it's time for a split in titles....those who want schutzhund to be a fancy obedience exercise, then fine but call the title something else.


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## Mrs.K

> Hate to say it, but maybe it's time for a split in titles....those who want schutzhund to be a fancy obedience exercise, then fine but call the title something else.


Wonder what they'd call that... hahaha 


YouTube - Funny dog training video - Humping dog


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## DunRingill

Mrs.K said:


> Wonder what they'd call that... hahaha



ohhhh I bet we could come up with a few ideas!!


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## Jax's Mom

DunRingill said:


> Hate to say it, but maybe it's time for a split in titles....those who want schutzhund to be a fancy obedience exercise, then fine but call the title something else.


You mean like "deadly weapon" and "fancy obedience exercise" titles? Because that's what it would boil down to legally. Almost like rubber bullets vs real bullets.
I'm not saying I agree for one second with today's idiot litigious society rules, but good luck defending yourself if something ever happened with your "real" schH titled dog.
It isn't the dogs or the breeders, or the uneducated buyers that watered down schH... it's the helmet-wearing, peanut-allergic, sue-happy nitwits we seem to have allowed into power.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> You mean like "deadly weapon" and "fancy obedience exercise" titles? Because that's what it would boil down to legally. Almost like rubber bullets vs real bullets.
> I'm not saying I agree for one second with today's idiot litigious society rules, but good luck defending yourself if something ever happened with your "real" schH titled dog.
> It isn't the dogs or the breeders, or the uneducated buyers that watered down schH... it's the helmet-wearing, peanut-allergic, sue-happy nitwits we seem to have allowed into power.


It's already a pain in the butt to try to convince some SAR people that todays Schutzhund IS indeed a sport... I had one team mate saying that he would specifically watch Indra and if he ever saw her "chasing a 3 year old girl to death" because she's doing bitework I'd be off the team. Not that he had anything to say about it... but really? Chasing a three year old girl because she's doing a little bitework?

What we do is a joke... 

I am lucky that the rest of the team is very open minded about Schutzhund.


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## Vandal

> The average puppy buyer doesn't have an extensive background in bloodlines. So if all of the above is part of the problem in Sch., how much can someone looking for a dog trust the pedigrees and titles people keep telling them to look for when buying a pup??


You don't because so much of it is marketing. You go out and learn about it yourself and see it with your own eyes. If someone tells you a story that doesn't quite make sense and asks you to believe what your own eyes are telling you is not true, you only have yourself to blame if you believe it. If they tell you something you don't fully understand and you don't ask more questions, you only have yourself to blame as well. Used to be you could look at a title and picture a certain type of temperament in a dog. Not anymore, as the Golden Retriever video demonstrates. I believe that Golden is being trained in Germany, so, those who think Germany is where all the great dogs are coming from need to reconsider that fantasy. 

Lies is right, you can still get an idea of what a good dog is, if you understand what a good dog is and know what to look for when you watch one. If you don't, you only have yourself to blame when you pick a dog based on a pedigree or on the titles on that pedigree. What has just been said about dogs who play in SchH and then really want to protect in real life is the biggest problem IMO. SchH used to test how well a dog could manage his own aggression. Now, it is possible that SchH hides that side of the dog because protection is not really protection at all. The training and the judging has made that possible. You can look at all the people on this board struggling with different forms of weakness in their dogs for the proof of what I am saying. I only need to look at the numbers of people who contact me for help with dogs who are lacking in one fashion or another. Sure, many times it is the people causing their own problem but there are plenty of dogs with big temperament issues out there. That seems to be ok with the people on this thread who seem to be saying that dogs of certain breeds can display the traits of another breed and that is just fine. So, now, people can't even look at a breed for what they want in a dog because people think it is OK if a Golden is aggressive and so on. If you protest about that, you are elitist and "discriminating". Maybe we need a little more discrimination nowadays, especially in the GSD.

* Discrimination is the cognitive and sensory capacity or ability to see fine distinctions and perceive differences between **objects**, subjects, **concepts** and **patterns**, or possess exceptional development of the **senses**. *

Once again, a GSD and some other breeds as well, are bred to have aggression and protective instincts. The SchH test was designed to test what supports that aggression in the dog. That means his nerves. The nerves enable him to THINK and continue to comply with the handler when he is working in aggression or in a high stress situation. The thinkers are far less likely to bite first and ask questions later because their nerves allow them the ability to escalate their aggression based on the level of threat. They can assess that threat level because their nerves allow them the ability to discriminate.
Picture yourself in a high stress situation. Do you get really agitated and excited and start screaming or can you still think, remain calm and decide what to do? SchH was designed to promote the thinkers and weed out the dogs who couldn't handle the stress. It could still do that but the training and judging has "evolved", or" devolved" , (depending on your point of view), which enables dogs who just do not have the right genetics or the ability I just talked about, to pass the test. Their SchH title is different than some others but huge numbers of people are being duped into believing it is all the same.

We have people here on this thread talking about their "right" to do whatever they want with their dog. That doesn't have a thing to do with it but they simply do not understand what some people have been trying to say. Instead of sitting there for a minute and THINKING about it, they are reacting with their emotions. That is what many of the dogs are doing now and some of them are dangerous as a result. Just like people who constantly encourage other people to only think with their emotions vs their brains are dangerous. Politicians are REALLY good at that but most people just follow right along.


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## Vandal

It won't make a bit of difference if the dog you taught to "play bite" does so in real life. You are still going to be sued and you will still lose. It is far better to test what your dog might REALLY do, vs fooling yourself into believing it is not there. The fact that people cannot understand that, I find very disturbing.


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## Jax's Mom

Vandal said:


> It won't make a bit of difference if the dog you taught to "play bite" does so in real life. You are still going to be sued and you will still lose. It is far better to test what your dog might REALLY do, vs fooling yourself into believing it is not there. The fact that people cannot understand that, I find very disturbing.


I agree, however a dog left to run loose unattended, biting someone that walks across the lawn is quite a different defence in court than one "trained" to "attack".


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## Vandal

You think that is what I am talking about? Loose dogs? Hardly. 

Most people have a problem wihen people are coming into their home or when they are walking the dog on a leash. Loose dogs, unless they run in a pack, are not the biggest problem, I can assure you of that. You will maybe have to think about it a little bit longer. If you do SchH, watch more closely at training. You just might see what I mean.

All of the people who want to believe that logic with the play biting.....you go ahead and try to explain to a judge or jury that you were just having FUN teaching your dog to play by biting someone. Good luck with that.


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## Vandal

One more thing I would like to clarify. SchH protection is not, ( and never has been), ATTACK training. Might seem that way to people who want their dog to play but that is a word meant to provoke a different picture in people's minds and it could not be further from the truth.


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## Jax's Mom

Vandal said:


> You think that is what I am talking about? Loose dogs? Hardly.


No I don't... I was saying it to make a point. 

A non-trained dog is different from a trained one. 

Just like there is a difference between premeditated murder and manslaughter. 

...and no I'm not saying anyone is using their dog for murder or manslaughter.


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## carmspack

A non trained dog is different from a trained one. Disagree. 
Anne is right , again. There is barely anything else to add. 
Jaxmom what you are describing could easily be 
the reactive fearful dog who will act out this way no matter if trained or not, so it is a matter of nerves, or lack thereof.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Vandal

> No I don't... I was saying it to make a point.


 Perhaps, but it changed the subject more than it made your point. 
You said this and that is what I was responding to


> You mean like "deadly weapon" and "fancy obedience exercise" titles? Because that's what it would boil down to legally. Almost like rubber bullets vs real bullets.
> I'm not saying I agree for one second with today's idiot litigious society rules, but good luck defending yourself if something ever happened with your "real" schH titled dog.


There are no rubber teeth in dogs. When they bite, it's considered a bite, no matter how hard or soft. Oh sure, there have been instances where people really paid for teaching their dogs protection work , like the situation in SF where the woman was killed. However, those dogs were not stable, which only further makes my point. If you don't test, you don't know who your dog really is. It won't matter if you say the dog was only playing while he was protecting you. No one on a jury is going to make the distinction and they will just think you are lying. It has taken me years to try to explain what has happened in SchH and people still don't get it. You won't have years to convince a jury or a judge. lol.

The point is, people who are teaching the dogs to play or work only in prey in SchH protection know far less about their dogs than they think they do. That is dangerous and will ultimately be what brings SchH to an end. People feel safe telling others the dogs are playing and will only bite a sleeve. Maybe on the SchH field but that doesn't mean they won't bite when they are not there. Many clubs test for chasing, they don't even trigger the aggression. So, they don't know how that dog will react when they are in that state of mind and they don't know how easy, ( or not), it is for the dog to go there. Lawyers don't just go after the owner, they go after the people who helped train the dog.


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## Jax's Mom

I think we're making exactly the same point.
My point, because I work in the courts, is that no matter WHAT your dog's story is, if someone's lawyer gets wind that ANY dog has had the slightest training in any kind of "protection", they will have a very difficult day in court. 
It was in response to the suggestion:


> Hate to say it, but maybe it's time for a split in titles....those who want schutzhund to be a fancy obedience exercise, then fine but call the title something else.


If there is suddenly a "just for fun schH" and "real schH", the owner will have fun explaining why they required "real schH" training on their dog. 
For the dog's fate, yes, a bite is a bite. The dog will be dead. The owner's however, will be very different. If prosecution can prove that the owner went the extra mile to go beyond just being reckless or negligent, they could face jail.


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## Vandal

Well, it sounded to me, ( and maybe Carmen as well), like you were saying that only the "real" SchH dog would be hard to explain. For me, explaining that bite training is taught as a game to the dog as fun for the owner, would sound dowright weird to most people. Why it doesn't to people who actually do participate in SchH remains a mystery in my miind. lol


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

If I were to have a choice of running through a yard, with the owner present but the dog free and these were my choices:

Schutzhund III GSD
Agility titled Border Collie
Untrained GSD
Untrained Border Collie

You can bet I would go through the yard of the titled GSDs and Border Collies because (if the owner decided) they would have the better chance of calling those dogs off of me. 

Why are we talking about this again? :rofl: Sorry!


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## Vandal

I am talking about it again because it is raining outside.
You did raise another point though. There is a big difference in being able to control a dog who is really aggressive and one who is just playing. So, whether that SchH 3 could be called off, would depend on what state of mind the dog is usually trained in.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

So Jax'sMom is right?



> I am talking about it again because it is raining outside.


I was trying to figure out how we got here from the Golden!


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## Vandal

On that last point. 
I have watched people trying to train dogs with out problems. They work the dog lower in drive and at their own club and on their own helper, the dog outs. Handler feels good, goes to the trial. New field, new helper loads the dog higher than the level he is trained to obey at. Dog no longer outs.


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## Vandal

Because the Golden has a lot to do with it, that's why.


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## gagsd

_Vandal wrote: _
_On that last point. 
I have watched people trying to train dogs with out problems. They work the dog lower in drive and at their own club and on their own helper, the dog outs. Handler feels good, goes to the trial. New field, new helper loads the dog higher than the level he is trained to obey at. Dog no longer outs._

Same is true for the human brain..... during a test, you do best if you are in the same "state" as when you studied. 

Experimental Pschology class with Dr. Calhoun


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## Vandal

> So Jax'sMom is right?


Argh....not really. I am saying and already said, that dogs can be trained to play on the SchH field but may be completely different off the field. You will have to maybe read what I wrote again. i think you will get it. You are making my point about the jury though. hehehe


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## carmspack

she said "walks across the lawn" which is different from running through a yard . 
I've seen to many bazoony schutzhund dogs to trust that distinction, including dogs that maul and intimidate their owners -- and they say it is good because that is hardness . bah. It is unacceptable. I've seen too many schutzhund dogs perform within the structure of a pattern or routine and get stressed when you change it up.
Saw that when we had a pile of schutzhund people determined to show us good working dogs at one of our training sessions at french ring. Not so much . Underlined the problem even more.


Dog should read intent. We used to live right across the street from a public school, in fact we were the safe house to go to if kids were scared or bullied . The kids used to walk three and four across some of them coming onto the lawn a good 4 to 5 feet in . I could sit on the porch waiting for my guys to come home and the dog would just watch. Now if someone , a junk mail carrier , started coming up the walkway the dog would stand alert and watchful . This is was a natural behaviour.

I like the guard the object excercises in French Ring/ Campagne. It lets you see the dogs understanding of zones. Give the dog a bike, or baby carriage or wallet , out in the public arena and have him keep it. The dog must read intent. If the person passes and minds his own business the dog has no reason to be any way than relaxed but watchful. If the person as people tend to do , bends over and says ' aw nice doggy' the dog still has to read the intentions. If the person makes moves to steal the object the dog then warns and waits for the person to back away, if the person persists the dog may grab . Not savage and bite the arm , pressure and total self control not out of prey or play. 
That is a behaviour that was wanted from the old herding dogs, which may have delivered the stock and the shepherd goes home with his purse . The dog may have had to wait outside with belongings .

When my daughter was a baby I had a Flagler cart , a mini two wheeled chariot. The baby would sit on the bench with her red raincoat and shocking blond hair peeping out, the dog Chella harnessed up looking for all the world like red riding hood and the wolf. Daughter and I would go to the local grocery , having walked there through city traffic. She and I would go inside and do the shopping . The dog was asked to "wait" . She was never a hazard to anyone, no one could bribe her, nothing would cause her to bolt. She was a minor celeb in the area. 

Times have changed but there was a time pre bank machines when you had to figure out how much money you needed for the weekend and you had to line up for teller services. Multi tasking-- baby and dog out for a walk and banking -- huge lineup long weekend. Parked the stroller and dog in a quiet area of the bank , not interfering with any one's coming and going -- always respectful that some people just do not like dogs and they have a right to not be bothered in a shared public space, and some people fear dogs for a sundry of reasons. The dog sat very calmly looking at everyone. Never bothered any one , never moved. One time though someone wanted to turn the stroller around. The moment the hand touched the handle the dog let out one big woof --- waking every one up. Total self control .

There is really so much that we can get out of our animals if we breed for the nuances and intelligence , the real stuff.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jax's Mom

Jax's Mom wasn't commenting on the psyche of the dog, the intention of the trainer or the purpose of schH itself. Jax's Mom was commenting on the legal aspect if there is a distinction of the two types of the sport as suggested by another poster. 
Your words will be twisted and there will be no way for you to defend that this is a breed test and there is a "NEED" for it, other than you're just a disturbed individual raising and glorifying killing machines. 
We have a joke saying in our office: "_and then there's gonna be an email, and then there's gonna a law against it!_"


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## Samba

There is much talk of training on this thread and also genetics. The genes are sooo important. I hear lots of talk about how many dogs can be trained to do all sorts of things. Yes, it is true that many dogs can be trained to do lots of patterned things. 

The interesting part of schutzhund for me has always been the genes. It is often not a revealer of DNA anymore. That is why I am not a person who advises folks to look for titles in pedigrees. I do advise to find out what the breeder knows about DNA and behaviors and traits and the lines of dogs they are putting together. 


Genetics part is why some of us would go  about a Golden doing schutzhund. 

I have always considered schutzhund training a cultural and legal liability. Makes it a lot less appealing to me as a sport or something to pattern train my genetically unsuited dog in for a few letters after a dog name. But, with a highly genetically suited dog, I would take on the liability, I suppose. It is so much fun to do it right and see the dog REVEALED! 

It was originallydesigned as a revelation tool, not a sport. This part is what makes it hard to remodel into sport, but every effort to remodel is being made. I like the sports designed as sport for my sport activities much better!


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## Mrs.K

I perfectly understand what you are saying Anne. The thing is, you put words in our mouth that have never been said. 

Yes, anyone should have the chance to do whatever he wants with his dog. I know all about Genes what the Shepherd is being bread for but that doesn't mean that I can't congratulate somebody doing something with his dog, he wasn't bred for and even manages to put a title on him. 

Two very entirely different things. I can honor the accomplishment without having to start a **** debate about Genes. 

Sometimes it's just better to shake somebodies hand without ranting and raving what happened to the Schutzhund sport. And sometimes... if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. PERIOD!


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> I perfectly understand what you are saying Anne. The thing is, you put words in our mouth that have never been said.
> 
> Yes, anyone should have the chance to do whatever he wants with his dog. I know all about Genes what the Shepherd is being bread for but that doesn't mean that I can't congratulate somebody doing something with his dog, he wasn't bred for and even manages to put a title on him.
> 
> Two very entirely different things. I can honor the accomplishment without having to start a **** debate about Genes.
> 
> Sometimes it's just better to shake somebodies hand without ranting and raving what happened to the Schutzhund sport. And sometimes... if you* don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. PERIOD!*


And if people follow this, this site will not educate, will not be responsible, will not be helpful, but people can then walk around in blissful ignorance.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> And if people follow this, this site will not educate, will not be responsible, will not be helpful, but people can then walk around in blissful ignorance.


No, there is a time and a place to educate. However, to get yourself worked up over somebody who is actually TRAINING his dog and saying that people don't understand and are to emotional while they perfectly understand but can differ between one and the other is too much. 

I am really tired of people who think they are so much better and belittle other or try to put them down just because they don't see the issue in ONE PERSON TRAINING her dog for something SHE enjoys to do. 

Talk about hypocrisy. At least she IS training her dog! Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong!


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## carmspack

I think we should get some black hair dye, paint a saddle on the "golden" and enter it. 
There is always a time to educate and always a time to learn. There is never an off switch for that.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jax08

I started a response but I think I would have better luck training my Himalayan in SchH than to get the point across.

Mrs. K - it is terribly obvious that you are stuck on one point...that people belittled the handler...nothing anyone says is going to change your mind....so be it....

Personally, I learned so much from this thread from experienced SchH people and have enjoyed the posts by Anne, Carmen, Chris...and all others I'm sure I"m forgetting.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> I think we should get some black hair dye, paint a saddle on the "golden" and enter it.
> There is always a time to educate and always a time to learn. There is never an off switch for that.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Yeah, right. Just that some people don't even respond to the topic anymore because they are getting tired about the "Oberlehrer" Attitude. One needs to know when to stop! 

And with that I am out as well. This topic has been completely ruined. At least that Golden is doing a much better job than the Bitches shown in the Siegerschau Video in the other topic. And that speaks Volumes but it's NOT the Goldens or the Handlers fault that it is the way it is!


----------



## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, right. Just that some people don't even respond to the topic anymore because they are getting tired about the "Oberlehrer" Attitude. One needs to know when to stop!
> 
> And with that I am out as well. This topic has been completely ruined. At least that Golden is doing a much better job than the Bitches shown in the Siegerschau Video in the other topic. And that speaks Volumes but it's NOT the Goldens or the Handlers fault that it is the way it is!


Sandra, you know I like you, but :headbang:

You really are not getting what people are saying..................which, in the greater scheme of things, has nothing to do with the Golden.

And on that other thread people are saying just as many bad things about those dogs and their work as they did the Golden and what he was showing in the videos. Just as what was predicted many times in this thread...people have a problem with certain things no matter what breed is doing it.


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## selzer

Mrs. K, if that Golden did not look stressed even though the helper was deliberately being very soft/careful with the baton, I probably would not have so much animosity toward what they are doing with that dog. 

Having lived with bird dogs -- setters, not retreivers, I would never deliberately stress one out like that. 

I think that part of bonding with a dog is finding what the dogs strengths and weaknesses are and playing to their strengths. Training them in something that they enjoy, and training them in a fashion that does not create a lot of negative energy in the dog is what I try to achieve. 

I am all for training dogs. But I would much rather see a dog wagging its tail in a routine, or calmly following instructions, than one bouncing off the ceiling or seriously doing something that seems to be making them very stressed. 

There are certainly different levels of people training their dogs. They are different not necessarily one better than another. There are those that intend to work the dog and need the dog to be dead nuts. They have good reason to make training a serious business. There are weekend warriors who are out to have fun with the dog in performance events. Winning is fun, but having fun is more important. There are those who want performance champions and feel that the way to get there is to be serious and perfect. There are those that just want a dog that is pleasant to live with and does not drag them down the street. 

I think you can be serious or fun or even just working on getting better and still be doing a great job by the dog. But doing something with a dog because you want to do it, regardless to the dog's disposition, instincts, genetics, etc., that is just rude and unfair to the dog.


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## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> Sandra, you know I like you, but :headbang:
> 
> You really are not getting what people are saying..................which, in the greater scheme of things, has nothing to do with the Golden.
> 
> And on that other thread people are saying just as many bad things about those dogs and their work as they did the Golden and what he was showing in the videos. Just as what was predicted many times in this thread...people have a problem with certain things no matter what breed is doing it.


I DO get it! But if you want to talk about Genes, take it to the proper section!

Which is right here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/


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## Jax08

so your objection is that people are having this discussion in the NON-Gene section? :rofl:


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## GSDElsa

You posted this in the SchH thread--how did you NOT expect it to turn into a debate about the state of the sport and how those genes fall into place to make a good protection dog? They go hand in hand.


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## carmspack

Selzer that is the whole point . No one is saying the golden is poor or inadequate . He might be stellar -- but not in schutzhund , unless schutzhund is so drastically modified to accommodate this dog/breed. He should be out and prove himself a cracker jack performer in a field for which his genetics are suited for . 

Seems to be a good way of wrapping things up.
Carmen


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## ShatteringGlass

here's another video of that Golden




 
he looks like he's barking for a cookie or to be let outside, I wouldnt be afraid to step out of the blind with this dog...


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## Whiteshepherds

I don't want to debate the video's or the downfall of Schutzhund, but do want to learn. 

Can someone point out (time) when the Golden looks stressed in either of these video's? What are we looking for? He looks pretty happy to me, especially in the second video, what am I not picking up on?


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## carmspack

It doesn't matter . It is not correct breed specific behaviour for a golden to have suspicion and aggression . They are not bred for guarding / protection or herding .
It is just plain wrong.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Fast

Who cares?

The Golden looks like it's having fun. It's happy.

The SV is getting their dues money. (they even got her on some harness money:laugh It's happy.

The rest of you it dosen't affect in the slightest. You already lost before this Golden was even born. You you stayed in lockstep with this crap for years. You swallowed the worm and hook on that "Golden Middle" crap now you have a dog that is even more Golden!!! ROTFLMAO 

YOU GOT GOLD-OWNED!!!!:wild::wild::wild::wild:

My sides might be aching too much to search for that thread about the bitches at the SS. 

Mrs. K remember the advice I gave you...There's no crying allowed in schutzhund! If you don't like what these people are saying just do what my good friend Cartman does.


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## Whiteshepherds

carmspack said:


> It doesn't matter . It is not correct breed specific behaviour for a golden to have suspicion and aggression . They are not bred for guarding / protection or herding .
> It is just plain wrong.


I wasn't sure if this was in reply to my post about someone pointing out where the dog looked stressed. Just in case...

It does matter. It matters because there is more than one post that implies the dog is under stress, and being forced/trained to do something he shouldn't be doing. (hence the stress)

Like I said, I don't want to debate whether or not the dog should be doing Sch., I'm just not seeing stress and asking if someone can point it out. I would ask the same thing if the dog was a GSD and someone said they saw stress I wasn't seeing.


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## Mrs.K

> There's no crying allowed in schutzhund!


No crying here. Just ridiculing the hypocrisy and double-standard that is going on in here. ;0


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> It doesn't matter . It is not correct breed specific behaviour for a golden to have suspicion and aggression . They are not bred for guarding / protection or herding .
> It is just plain wrong.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Than a German Shepherd shouldn't be able to do a luring course . Since "...it is not correct breed specific behaviour(...)."


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## GSDElsa

Whiteshepherds said:


> I wasn't sure if this was in reply to my post about someone pointing out where the dog looked stressed. Just in case...
> 
> It does matter. It matters because there is more than one post that implies the dog is under stress, and being forced/trained to do something he shouldn't be doing. (hence the stress)
> 
> Like I said, I don't want to debate whether or not the dog should be doing Sch., I'm just not seeing stress and asking if someone can point it out. I would ask the same thing if the dog was a GSD and someone said they saw stress I wasn't seeing.


I'm not an expert by any means, but in the first video the growling and thrashing on the sleeve is generally a sign of stress. Also if you look at his bites he kind of bites with just his front teeth in some of shots, whereas you'd like a full "driving" sort of bite usually. I also think the lack of helper pressure (note they truly are just playing a game of tug--even during the SchH 1 routine I didn't see any kind of "hit"...it llooked like he raised his hand once and put it back at his side) shows the dog can't handle it. The jumps up are a fairly half-hearted attempt at getting something serious going--lacks committment in what he's doing when coming off the ground.

Anyhow....since no one else answered your question I thought I would try from my very limited experience and knowledge hawked off of other people. The real SchH people can correct me if I'm wrong  and add anything else.


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## Wolfgeist

Interesting to watch, it is certainly something I have never seen before. I never expected to see a Golden Retriever preforming Schutzhund - simply because I worked at breeding kennel for Goldens as a kennel attendant and never saw appropriate drives for Schutzhund in any of the dogs. 

Instead of getting involved in this debate, I am just going to say that perhaps this dog is an entirely unique case where Schutzhund and that "aggression" suited the dog. As we all are well aware, not every dog conforms to their breed standard. Just a thought.


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## Jax's Mom

Mrs.K said:


> No crying here. Just ridiculing the hypocrisy and double-standard that is going on in here. ;0


When I came over from another breed _that shall remain nameless_, I was all excited that GSD people are not just a bunch of silly nannies all preoccupied about whose dogs' ears stand straighter, who bred what with that and why someone didn't show up to a particular event because they're busy *working* their dogs...

...I'm trying Belgians next


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## Fast

GSDElsa said:


> I'm not an expert by any means, but in the first video the growling and thrashing on the sleeve is generally a sign of stress.


It's not always a sign of stress. Some dogs just growl. 

Some breeds are also predisposed to growl. A lot of very good Rottweilers do a lot of growling.

For a Golden it's not a big deal. I have one that says with me a few months a year and he growls at his ball when he plays with it. 

There is not a lot of stress on that dog in the video. Look at the general outlook of the dog. Does he worried in the blind? does his body language looked stressed in between the exercises? He's just playing a game of of tug and play. 

And he's cute too.


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## cledford

I haven't had time to go through the 27 pages of this thread - but where is the video of a Golden doing *schutzhund?* I see 2 short videos of a dog doing short, backup bites that are essentially all prey bites as the helper was backing away in both. This is not schutzhund - schutzhund is a 3 phase test and even if looking at C only, there many exercises beyond a single bite in prey. In fact, of the 5 bites in a SchH3 routine, 4 are in defense.

Re. the dog being stressed - I'd say he was. His initial reaction after the grip on clip #2 was to get behind the decoy. This is a classic sign of a dog in some conflict. To be fair, some dogs with strong fight drive also try to get behind the helper - as it provides a mechanical advantage to over powering the man. Give the growling that *only* seemed to come once the stick was presented - that to me shows even more conflict/stress.

Thoughts?

-Calvin


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## mikezirra

There's a difference between a handler/dog team that does schutzhund and a handler/dog team that does schutzhund WELL. Who cares if you and your dog does schutzhund, I want to see how well it's being done. 

There's a difference between a dog that's correct and a dog that's powerful. It's the latter that catches my eye. I don't care how watered down schutzhund has become. I don't care if we were living in 1945 and a dog passed the breed suitability test. I want to see how well that dog passed that test.


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## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> There's a difference between a handler/dog team that does schutzhund and a handler/dog team that does schutzhund WELL. Who cares if you and your dog does schutzhund, I want to see how well it's being done.
> 
> There's a difference between a dog that's correct and a dog that's powerful. It's the latter that catches my eye. I don't care how watered down schutzhund has become. I don't care if we were living in 1945 and a dog passed the breed suitability test. I want to see how well that dog passed that test.


But don't forget - MANY people do dog training of any kind, including ScH, just for the fun of it, not to be competetive with others! Would you tell them not to train their dog just because they are not fanatic about the hi score in trial business?

If you are referrring to a ScH score from a dog you want a puppy from then of course that is up to you in that case. Or of course if you are training your own dog, then go for it!


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## mikezirra

It's not a hard concept to understand. So what if you train your dog? So do a million others. The distinction that most fail to recognize (usually by people who do little training and are only fixated on their own dogs) is that strong and powerful dogs leave an impression in whatever work, especially schutzhund. So the golden did some schutzhund, maybe scores high because maybe it is correct in the work, but does not express power in the work in any form or fashion. You can train for competition or just for fun all you want, but it doesn't automagically grant you a cookie.



codmaster said:


> But don't forget - MANY people do dog training of any kind, including ScH, just for the fun of it, not to be competetive with others! Would you tell them not to train their dog just because they are not fanatic about the hi score in trial business?
> 
> If you are referrring to a ScH score from a dog you want a puppy from then of course that is up to you in that case. Or of course if you are training your own dog, then go for it!


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## mikezirra

If I tell you: Such and such scored 290 thus achieving V rating.

What can we extrapolate from the claim? Nothing, except that the dog was correct enough to get 290.

Desirable attributes in the GSD like strength, speed, and aggression can only be seen. Those attributes sets the good dogs apart from the less. Not "breed suitability" test, whether in the 1940s or our time.


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## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> It's not a hard concept to understand. So what if you train your dog? So do a million others. The distinction that most fail to recognize (usually by people who do little training and are only fixated on their own dogs) is that strong and powerful dogs leave an impression in whatever work, especially schutzhund. So the golden did some schutzhund, maybe scores high because maybe it is correct in the work, but does not express power in the work in any form or fashion. You can train for competition or just for fun all you want, but it doesn't automagically grant you a cookie.


*What exactly is your point?*

If a Golden (or a GSD for that matter) scores high in ScH and is "correct in the work" you personally don't like it "because does not express power in the work in any form or fashion". 

How would such a dog score high? Do you think the judge doesn't know as much as you do?

You like "strong and powerful dogs" better - I bet you must love Great Danes or Saint Bernards - they are of course much more strong and powerful than a mere GSD.


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## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> If I tell you: Such and such scored 290 thus achieving V rating.
> 
> What can we extrapolate from the claim? Nothing, except that the dog was correct enough to get 290.
> 
> Desirable attributes in the GSD like strength, speed, and aggression can only be seen. Those attributes sets the good dogs apart from the less. Not "breed suitability" test, whether in the 1940s or our time.


What would you like to "extrapolate" from ScH? 

Sounds like the only attribute that you are interested in from ScH is the bite work? A dog doesn't have to be fast or agressive to do the tracking and obedience, does one?

BTW, where did you "extrapolate" that a GSD should be "Agressive" - that is certainly NOT in the standard so I assume that you just made it up in your own mind.

BTW the standard says "aloof but approachable" - not agressive! Too agressive will be faulted in the ring!


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## gagsd

Way back on page 1 I posted that I found the video "disturbing." Hearing a Golden growl, was so out of context for the breed, that it kind of weirded me out.

I also find Pit Bulls doing bitework disturbing as I always understood that the breed should never show human aggression. (but boy are they fun to watch!!)

To Codmaster, I see plenty of dogs who are fast and correct in bitework, but they lack power.... there is just something some dogs exude that is very different. So just because a dog makes a 98 in protection does not mean it has a lot of power..... but neither does it mean it is a bad dog. You really have to watch the dog to decide.
Does that make sense?


----------



## gagsd

codmaster said:


> Sounds like the only attribute that you are interested in from ScH is the bite work? A dog doesn't have to be fast or agressive to do the tracking and obedience, does one?


I watched dogs at the AWDF last weekend. I took notes as they went. SEVERAL times the notes that I made in obedience were the same as in protection. So YES obedience can be very telling as well. 

As is tracking, herding, etc.

Breed standard:
*Character*
The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


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## codmaster

gagsd said:


> Way back on page 1 I posted that I found the video "disturbing." Hearing a Golden growl, was so out of context for the breed, that it kind of weirded me out.
> I also find Pit Bulls doing bitework disturbing as I always understood that the breed should never show human aggression. (but boy are they fun to watch!!)To Codmaster, I see plenty of dogs who are fast and correct in bitework, but they lack power.... there is just something some dogs exude that is very different. So just because a dog makes a 98 in protection does not mean it has a lot of power..... but neither does it mean it is a bad dog. You really have to watch the dog to decide.
> Does that make sense?


I can see where watching a Golden biting would look weird! To me too.

To me seeing a pit doing it wouldn't look as weird but I don't think I would want the sleeve - they are way too fast!

Don't know what you mean by "Power" - just don't understand the term. If you mean "Presence" - yes than I would get what you mean. Some dogs have it and most don't. You can also see that in the breed ring. A dog that just says "LOOK AT ME!".


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## gagsd

codmaster said:


> Don't know what you mean by "Power" - just don't understand the term. If you mean "Presence" - yes than I would get what you mean. Some dogs have it and most don't. You can also see that in the breed ring. A dog that just says "LOOK AT ME!".


Something like that, yes. For example in the longbite, most dogs get an ovation.... some get wolf whistles and cheering. The crowd knows that they just saw a strong dog, even if you can't really say why.


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## lhczth

Power is the dog that comes into the blind and says, "go ahead, make my day". It is the dog that hits the sleeve and becomes dead weight on the escape slowing the helper down or even turning them around. Power is the dog that is tough to drive and might even plant its back feet so the helper has to drag them. They may or may not hit hard in the longbite (and many don't). These dogs are fighting with and attempting to over power the helper and defeat them in battle (so to speak). They are not playing a game of tug with a sleeve or trying to win their toy. Once you see a dog like I am talking about you will never again question what "power" means.


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## onyx'girl

gagsd said:


> I watched dogs at the AWDF last weekend. I took notes as they went. SEVERAL times the notes that I made in obedience were the same as in protection. So YES obedience can be very telling as well.
> As is tracking, herding, etc.


 I sure would love to take a look at your notes!!!!


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## mikezirra

codmaster said:


> What would you like to "extrapolate" from ScH?
> 
> Sounds like the only attribute that you are interested in from ScH is the bite work? A dog doesn't have to be fast or agressive to do the tracking and obedience, does one?
> 
> BTW, where did you "extrapolate" that a GSD should be "Agressive" - that is certainly NOT in the standard so I assume that you just made it up in your own mind.
> 
> BTW the standard says "aloof but approachable" - not agressive! Too agressive will be faulted in the ring!


Looks like you are mistaking *aggression* for *viciousness*. Without aggression, how are athletes born? 

From aggression comes power in all 3 phases. I'll say it once, I'll say it twice, ****... I'll say it 3 times. Power, power, power, whether in tracking, obedience, or protection.


----------



## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> Looks like you are mistaking *aggression* for *viciousness*. Without aggression, how are athletes born?
> 
> From aggression comes power in all 3 phases. I'll say it once, I'll say it twice, ****... I'll say it 3 times. Power, power, power, whether in tracking, obedience, or protection.


I am mistaking nothing. 

But it looks like you are not answering my question - where in the GSD standard does it mention that a GSD should be aggressive (or vicious for that matter)???????

Maybe it would help if you look up the real definitions for both terms? And then read the GSD standard and see if you can find either term in the standard. 

As a hint - remember the description "Aloof yet approachable". That is from the standard and does not imply either Vic. or Aggr., does it?

Could it be that YOU like an "aggressive" GSD? (However you might define that description)


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## onyx'girl

Codmaster, do you do SchH? When you are doing all three phases, the dog should be showing enthusiasm, which means power! A stable temperamented GSD won't engage in aggression unless there is a threat. And a well bred stable dog, knows how to discern whether to act or not. 
I'd much rather see a dog showing active aggression on a protection field than a lackadasical approach.
My dog will come at the helper committed like an amtrack train(and it isn't a game for him), but off the field, he is a wiggly cuddlebug.


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## mikezirra

Sigh. I'll take the bait. Michael Jordan is an aggressive basketball player. So according to your logic he is unapproachable. Was Charles Mansion aggressive or vicious? I don't know what standard you follow, FCI is what most people with a clue look at. Let me guess, AKC? I'm sorry, but a GSD that lacks aggression is a disappointment.


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## mikezirra

> The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and *(except for a stimulated situation)* good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.


http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/166g01-en-sv.doc

This is the real standard of the GSD's character. Notice the bold. Notice how aggression doesn't go against the real standard. Not your made up standard.


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## carmspack

the dog must have COMMAND, in fact and in presence . He must be able to make an impression of being capable , assertive. The dog works with a strong nerve base. This is something that you can spot whether the dog is "performing" or not. 
Not aggressive. Not vicious. Not just sport -- in everything , the dog has a self assurance .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## mikezirra

When a dog perceives threat, it enters defensive mode. Not aggression. There is often confusion there as well. When a dog wants to overpower, it operates in aggression. Controlled aggression is a good thing. Uncapped aggression can, not always, lead towards viciousness. But the fact remains, aggression is necessary for a good dog.


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Codmaster, do you do SchH? When you are doing all three phases, the dog should be showing enthusiasm, which means power! A stable temperamented GSD won't engage in aggression unless there is a threat. And a well bred stable dog, knows how to discern whether to act or not.
> I'd much rather see a dog showing active aggression on a protection field than a lackadasical approach.
> My dog will come at the helper committed like an amtrack train(and it isn't a game for him), but off the field, he is a wiggly cuddlebug.


Yes, I have trained some of my dogs in ScH.

Yes, aggression on the field is great for those doing ScH - how about showing it off the field, or how about having to tell people, esp. kids that "No he is not friendly and you can't pet him"?

ScH is a game and a dog showing enthusiasm for the helper or sleeve is great, aggression may not be so great elsewhere.

Very true about a well bred normal temperamented GSD - what should be! As I said about - NOT aggressive in the usual meaning of the word, but rather "Aloof but Approachable"!


----------



## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/166g01-en-sv.doc
> 
> This is *the real standard* of the GSD's character. Notice the bold. Notice how aggression doesn't go against the real standard. Not your made up standard.


BTW, I did try a search for the word "aggressive" in the standard reference document that you suggested above - couldn't find it - could you please point out what page the word aggresive is found in the foreign standard that you referenced?

Whoops! You are of course wrong here - The AKC is the US standard. 

Remember the GSDCA! The keeper of the American standard - and being an American and living in the US - that of course is the standard that I follow.

Don't know about you - the nice thing about living here is that people are free to follow whatever they would like to. So you follow which ever standard you want to, even a foreign one! Just in case, here is a piece of THE US Standard:

*"The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. ...........*

I don't know about the other standards, (maybe you do); but I don't see the word "Aggressive" anywhere in the standard, do you?


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## mikezirra

The AKC also says breed any type of dog you feel. And we ought to take the AKC's perspective on the GSD standard seriously? This is why GSDs with FCI papers are worth more than AKC registered dogs without FCI papers. AKC is a joke. But that's besides the point. The reason you and a lot of people have the misconceptions of what a good GSD is, is because of the SV's dealings with the showline community.


----------



## Catu

LOL, It is funny how a thread about how a Golden shouldn't be turned into a GSD become how GSDs should be turned Goldens.


----------



## Vandal

Catu wrote:


> LOL, It is funny how a thread about how a Golden shouldn't be turned into a GSD become how GSDs should be turned Goldens.


:laugh:


----------



## onyx'girl

Catu said:


> LOL, It is funny how a thread about how a Golden shouldn't be turned into a GSD become how GSDs should be turned Goldens.


:thumbup:


----------



## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> The AKC also says breed any type of dog you feel. And we ought to take the AKC's perspective on the GSD standard seriously? This is *why GSDs with FCI papers are worth more than AKC registered dogs without FCI papers*. AKC is a joke. But that's besides the point. The reason you and a lot of people have the misconceptions of what a good GSD is, is because of the SV's dealings with the showline community.


Mike, Mike, Mike, where do you get your misconceptions? Like the one above about worth of a GSD? What is the average and highest cost of each kind of puppy? 

I know you must have these numbers because otherwise you would be basing your bold statment just on your imagination, so could you please just post those numbers?

Also, just to try to educate you about how this whole breed thing works in the US (BTW, are you located overseas, perhaps?). The AKC does almost nothing directly for any breed - that is the reason for the various national breed organizations. Like the GSDCA! - have you ever heard of this organization? It is the German Shepherd Dog Club of *America*. THIS is the national breed club who maintains the American standard for the GSD here in the US.

You (and other folks) could gain a lot of knowledge about the breed here in the US by becoming a member or even just visiting their web site.

BTW, what are my "misconceptions" about what a "good' GSD is? I wish you would enlighten me so I could know what I have been doing wrong over the last 35-40 years that we have owned, trained and shown GSD's.

Finally could you explain what in the world you meant by the following statment? 

*"..because of the SV's dealings with the showline community..."* 

What "dealings" are you referring to and are you referring to the *US* showline community or the *German* or *other country's* showlines communities. All of them?

Sounds to me that you are upset for some reason or another with the SV as well as the AKC - are you also upset with any other organizations?


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## selzer

mikezirra said:


> The AKC also says breed any type of dog you feel. And we ought to take the AKC's perspective on the GSD standard seriously? This is why GSDs with FCI papers are worth more than AKC registered dogs without FCI papers. AKC is a joke. But that's besides the point. The reason you and a lot of people have the misconceptions of what a good GSD is, is because of the SV's dealings with the showline community.


Welcome to the board. This board is owned by Canadians. I wonder why no one has trotted out the Canadian Standard yet. But whatever. You are new here, and my bet is that even most of these working line dogs are registered AKC. And while there are SOME of the people that share you opinion about the AKC. Beginning your membership by dissing the club that most of the dogs are registered through is maybe not such a great idea. 

While way too often this gets to be a peeing contest between working lines and showlines, I think most of those who know any thing about GSDs know that the SV is a breed club and the AKC is a dog club. The AKC cannot regulate hundreds of breeds the way the SV regulates one. They are two different animals.


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## codmaster

The GSDCA is the GSD breed club in the US - it is a member of the AKC! The AKC does nothing for the individual breeds - that is the reason for the breed clubs.

Who does the breed stuff for the FCI? Isn't it the SV in Germany?

Just for the sake of the thread - I think it is cool as heck to see an unusual dog breed doing ScH. Have you ever seen the video of the Jack Russel Terrier (I think!) doing a run on the protection field? Funny as heck!


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## Samba

The largest followed standard for the world of GSDs is surely the FCI standard. A few countries decided to opt out and go their own way with the standard. They would represent a minority.

Many dogs bred in the US are bred to the FCI standard. Just being on a landmass does not determine the standard that is followed.


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## Chris Wild

Catu said:


> LOL, It is funny how a thread about how a Golden shouldn't be turned into a GSD become how GSDs should be turned Goldens.


One of the best posts I've seen in a long time!
:toasting:


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## mikezirra

So apparently if you are a member of a club and you don't like the way the club is operating, you have no right to speak out. While we're at it, if you are an American, you better not speak out if the government is operating in the wrong.

I venture to guess that the ones who get their feelings hurt when someone bashes the AKC is one who has stakes in the AKC. You must be quite proud of all those CGCs, RNs, and CDs. GSDCA? Please. Why do you think AKC begs and begs to become a member of the FCI but is continually denied. Again why should we care about the AKC's perspective on the GSD?


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## Vandal

I am thinking Codmaster has made my case, ( that I made 50 pages or so ago...lol), about the SV recruiting folks of a different mentality in order to complete the job of destroying SchH. There are just lots of people now who have no idea what SchH was for. That ignorance has made it so easy for the SV Show people to demolish a once really excellent test for the GSD. 

Don't take it personal Codmaster but you just don't understand Schutzhund. That is quite clear.


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## selzer

mikezirra said:


> So apparently if you are a member of a club and you don't like the way the club is operating, you have no right to speak out. While we're at it, if you are an American, y*ou better not speak out if the government is operating in the wrong.*
> 
> I venture to guess that the ones who get their feelings hurt when someone bashes the AKC is one who has stakes in the AKC. You must be quite proud of all those CGCs, RNs, and CDs. GSDCA? Please. Why do you think AKC begs and begs to become a member of the FCI but is continually denied. Again why should we care about the AKC's perspective on the GSD?


Not on this site.


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## codmaster

mikezirra said:


> So apparently if you are a member of a club and you don't like the way the club is operating, you have no right to speak out. While we're at it, if you are an American, you better not speak out if the government is operating in the wrong.
> 
> I venture to guess that the ones who get their feelings hurt when someone bashes the AKC is one who has stakes in the AKC. You must be quite proud of all those CGCs, RNs, and CDs. GSDCA? Please. Why do you think AKC begs and begs to become a member of the FCI but is continually denied. Again why should we care about the AKC's perspective on the GSD?


What are you referring to as "the AKC's perspective on the GSD" - one last time - the AKC DOES NOT HAVE ANY "PERSPECTIVE" on the GSD or any other breed for that matter. There are breed clubs for each breed - this is not really a difficult concept, is it? Maybe you could even join the GSDCA (instead of just complaining about the mysterious AKC) be elected to be president, and solve all of the problems of the GSD breed in America? 

If you don't care, then act as you feel like. In America you are entitled to do so.

You never did bother to respond (doesn't matter), but I would guess from your statments that you are also not a member of the GSDCA, correct?

Enough of this thread!


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## selzer

I think my point is that we are not all working-line-enthusiasts here. Some of us have show line dogs, American or Canadian or German. Most of us have AKC dogs if we live in the US. The AKC has a standard, but does not require that we follow their standard.

You can type whatever you want about whatever you want as long as you are not violating board rules, but others can disagree with you, and some can be offended, and I think it is really unhelpful to widen the chasm between the various lines of dogs. 

GSDs do have many things in common, and there is no reason to start out by telling us that AKC is a joke. It is a dog club and they maintain pedigree info for hundreds of breeds. They put on shows. They are all we have with regards to canine legislation which effects us all. I used to be a member of the GSDCA, but now I am just a member of a local GSD club for whom the GSDCA is the parent club. While they are mostly specialty GSD dogs there, there are some of us who have other types of GSDs, some with working dogs, some with working line dogs, some with schutzhund dogs and this is because there is much that goes on in our area that affects all of us. 

I just do not understand why there is an attitude, I conform to the xyz - standard and my dogs do abc -- all you other fake GSDs with your Joke of a standard, and all of your stupid meaningless titles get out of my way because my dogs are worth more than yours, my dogs are more correct than yours.


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## codmaster

Vandal said:


> I am thinking Codmaster has made my case, ( that I made 50 pages or so ago...lol), about the SV recruiting folks of a different mentality in order to complete the job of destroying SchH. There are just lots of people now who have no idea what SchH was for. That ignorance has made it so easy for the SV Show people to demolish a once really excellent test for the GSD.
> 
> Don't take it personal Codmaster but you just don't understand Schutzhund. That is quite clear.


Thank you so much for letting me know. I probably also erred by training a spayed female in ScH - obviously not thinking it was ONLY a breeding test. Currently it seems like it is often a test for over hyped and over aggressive dogs.

That is NOT the idea of Sch - at least not what I gathered from Julius Due many years ago whe we got a puppy from him and got a chance to see and appreciate his ScH 3 super dog!

Don't *you* take it personal, but YOU and the folks like you are what is wrong with much of the ScH training today. Super aggressive almost crazy dogs that are untrustworthy around people. Gives a very bad name to ScH and has many dogs that live down to the reputation that many people have of Sch - "Attack Training".

BTW I guess that you are a great ScH trainer.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> I think my point is that we are not all working-line-enthusiasts here. Some of us have show line dogs, American or Canadian or German. Most of us have AKC dogs if we live in the US. The AKC has a standard, but does not require that we follow their standard.
> 
> You can type whatever you want about whatever you want as long as you are not violating board rules, but others can disagree with you, and some can be offended, and I think it is really unhelpful to widen the chasm between the various lines of dogs.
> 
> GSDs do have many things in common, and there is no reason to start out by telling us that AKC is a joke. It is a dog club and they maintain pedigree info for hundreds of breeds. They put on shows. They are all we have with regards to canine legislation which effects us all. I used to be a member of the GSDCA, but now I am just a member of a local GSD club for whom the GSDCA is the parent club. While they are mostly specialty GSD dogs there, there are some of us who have other types of GSDs, some with working dogs, some with working line dogs, some with schutzhund dogs and this is because there is much that goes on in our area that affects all of us.
> 
> I just do not understand why there is an attitude, I conform to the xyz - standard and my dogs do abc -- all you other fake GSDs with your Joke of a standard, and all of your stupid meaningless titles get out of my way because my dogs are worth more than yours, my dogs are more correct than yours.


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## selzer

mikezirra said:


> So apparently if you are a member of a club and you don't like the way the club is operating, you have no right to speak out. While we're at it, if you are an American, you better not speak out if the government is operating in the wrong.
> 
> I venture to guess that the ones who get their feelings hurt when someone bashes the AKC is one who has stakes in the AKC. *You must be quite proud of all those CGCs, RNs, and CDs. GSDCA? Please.* Why do you think AKC begs and begs to become a member of the FCI but is continually denied. Again why should we care about the AKC's perspective on the GSD?


Yeah, I see you are not embarrassed by any titles or dogs or anything.


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## Catu

codmaster said:


> Don't *you* take it personal, but YOU and the folks like you are what is wrong with much of the ScH training today. Super aggressive almost crazy dogs that are untrustworthy around people. Gives a very bad name to ScH and has many dogs that live down to the reputation that many people have of Sch - "Attack Training".
> 
> BTW I guess that you are a great ScH trainer.


I bet she is! And I guess you have been around some of her vicious dogs too. I only know one, a dog that comes from playing with a 4 your old kid and taking orders from him to be quite real in the field. The same dog that let me play with her 3 weeks old puppies and gave me nothing more than a watchful eye. Good think I didn't know she was a Super aggressive almost crazy dogs that are untrustworthy around people then, or my adrenalin would have triggered her jumping at my throat. Oh wait! It is her son the one that jumps at my throat!!!


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## Vandal

Ignorant people have always thought SchH was about attack dogs. Once it was explained to them, "most" understood immediately that it is anything but that. I rest my case with your last rant Codmaster. You do not know what you are talking about. I don't have any names I feel like dropping either. I can stand by my own beliefs and experience.


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## codmaster

Catu said:


> I bet she is! And I guess you have been around some of her vicious dogs too. I only know one, a dog that comes from playing with a 4 your old kid and taking orders from him to be quite real in the field. The same dog that let me play with her 3 weeks old puppies and gave me nothing more than a watchful eye. Good think I didn't know she was a Super aggressive almost crazy dogs that are untrustworthy around people then, or my adrenalin would have triggered her jumping at my throat. Oh wait! It is her son the one that jumps at my throat!!!


Catu - i would highly recommend that you read a post before you comment on it - usually works better that way. Where did I say that his/her dog was like that? Only person bringing that up was you! 

What I said was that a lot of ScH dogs that I have seen are like that - can't pet them and their owners will tell you that. A good ScH dog should be like a good non ScH GSD - able to be trusted around people and kids. Many can not be today!


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## codmaster

Vandal said:


> Ignorant people have always thought SchH was about attack dogs. Once it was explained to them, "most" understood immediately that it is anything but that. *I rest my case* with your last rant Codmaster. You do not know what you are talking about. I don't have any names I feel like dropping either. I can *stand by my own beliefs and experience*.


Ok, I am willing to learn!

Outside of a "breeding test" - in your words and based on your "beliefs and experience", what exactly is the purpose of ScH?

Is it a sport? Is it supposed to be real life protection training (take the place of a PPD?)?
Is it supposed to train a dog to do actual real life tracking - i.e. like a trained S&R dog? Could a ScH actually find a lost person? Is that the intent of ScH tracking training?

Is the obedience phase equivalent (or tougher) than the often derided AKC obedience?

I really await your explanation based on your beliefs and experience of exactly what is ScH and it's true purpose.

It appeared to me that it was an interesting training approach, but evidently it is supposed to be a great deal more (at least to some folks). I used to train with a trainer who also trained actual real live police canines as well as ScHand he would always distinguish between the two types of training and dogs but maybe he was misguided perhaps.


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## onyx'girl

codmaster said:


> Catu - i would highly recommend that you read a post before you comment on it - usually works better that way. Where did I say that his/her dog was like that? Only person bringing that up was you!
> 
> What I said was that a lot of ScH dogs that I have seen are like that - can't pet them and their owners will tell you that. A good ScH dog should be like a good non ScH GSD - able to be trusted around people and kids. Many can not be today!


I'll get blasted for this one....I bet most of the ones you've been around have been showlines without the best nerves.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> I'll get blasted for this one....I bet most of the ones you've been around have been showlines without the best nerves.


Why would anyone blast you for this?

You mean showline ScH dogs? Or just plain SL?

Most regular SL dogs that I have seen have been pretty friendly to strangers since they see them all day in the many shows that they go to - esp. the ones that are shown with a pro handler.

In either case, most have not been SL dogs training for ScH.


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## onyx'girl

> What I said was that a lot of ScH dogs that I have seen are like that - can't pet them and their owners will tell you that.


Your post was about SchH dogs, that was what I was referring to. There have been a few SL's where I've trained and they aren't the strongest as far as nerves go, reactive and can be a bit fearful when pressure is finally put on them....they usually wash out. Out of about 6, only 3 are worthy of getting titles. I know that is just my experience, though.

Most people I know don't want people petting their dogs, so will say that regardless of whether the dog is friendly or not. GSD's don't really like strangers petting them....at least mine don't(if they know you, they are all about it, though)


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Your post was about SchH dogs, that was what I was referring to. There have been a few SL's where I've trained and they aren't the strongest as far as nerves go, reactive and can be a bit fearful when pressure is finally put on them....they usually wash out. Out of about 6, only 3 are worthy of getting titles. I know that is just my experience, though.
> 
> Most people I know don't want people petting their dogs, so will say that regardless of whether the dog is friendly or not. GSD's don't really like strangers petting them....at least mine don't(if they know you, they are all about it, though)


Probably true as far as SL dogs in Sch training - I would expect it, as they are definetly not selected for that type of training. Just like I would also expect WL dogs to not do very well in the breed ring - same reason as they are not selected for that environment.

As far as petting my dog, I think that it is great when some stranger (other than the creepy kind of course) likes my dog and would like to pet him. As long as both the dog and person want to - why not? Helps the publics often clouded view of GSD's when they are seen as friendly. I used to bring my two adult GSD's to Little League baseball games when we lived in Ohio and they were the hit of the game with both teams crowding around the dogs and petting the heck out of them. Both kids and dogs loved it. Albeit with more than a few "Police dog" comments from some of the kids.

But of course not every dog or not every owner is comfortable with that so they should keep the dogs away in that case, of course.

BTW, I don't think that you can state the "GSDs don't like strangers petting them" as a catagorical declaration - some don't (maybe a majority) but an awful lot of them do like petting.


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## selzer

I would have agreed to GSD not liking strangers petting them. Until a few weeks ago. When MY Babs, my loyal obedience dog. My sweet (to me only) girl that I held within minutes of her birth. And kept since then. And she goes and SOLICITS pets from a COMPLETE STRANGER. 

This being AFTER I had her bred. Now I have to go and check her temperament temperature. My Babsy going all GR on me. Totally disgraceful. 

(Rushie used to do this too, but I always figured that was the WL part of him.) 

Seriously though, I think it depends on the dog. Dogs do not have to be hostile to be not soliciting pets from strangers. Usually, when someone asks nicely, and depending on whom I have with me, I will tell the dog, "say hello." The dog will then move forward and sniff at the hand and suffer itself to allow a non-friend/trainer/owner/vet/groomer to touch them. The do not make friends as fast as I do, but I think that is part of that aloof statement in the standard.


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## Catu

My GSDs are more into me and once in "working mode" are able to tune anything else out, even the "fly attention span" 7 months old pup. But other dogs I have owned and other GSDs I've met and worked who are more social can have a more difficult time concentrating around friendly people. In SchH seminars I've seen that the dogs that the owner ask not to pet are precisely the social butterflies that need to say hi to everybody before going to work.


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## codmaster

Exactly. Aloof is good but aggrssive is not - not without cause. And if some kid or even an adult gets a little too friendly too quick the dog should ideally just tolerate it.

Like when i looked down at my dog one day in the local park when we had met a mother and little 1 1/2 yo child and saw the kid with a bear hug on my 3yo male GSD. Tolerated it very well and paid the kid back with a big slurp!

That to me is the ideal GSD temperament and one that I was very proud of in him!


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## CassandGunnar

selzer said:


> Seriously though, I think it depends on the dog. Dogs do not have to be hostile to be not soliciting pets from strangers. Usually, when someone asks nicely, and depending on whom I have with me, I will tell the dog, "say hello." The dog will then move forward and sniff at the hand and suffer itself to allow a non-friend/trainer/owner/vet/groomer to touch them. The do not make friends as fast as I do, but I think that is part of that aloof statement in the standard.


Gunnar is like this. He doesn't solicit pets, but he isn't against them either. However, it depends on who you are (to him).
Strangers in a store or when we're out for a walk, he could care less, until you pet him. Then he may not leave you alone........lol.
With my parents or friends that we see often, he is likely to shovel at your hand until you pet him.

I'm perfectly ok with this and I think it's normal for a GSD to like to be petted, just not HAVE to be petted.


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## crackem

> *q*uietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. ...........


While I don't see the word aggression, it is quite clear what this is saying. It has to willingly meet a threat with threat, meet aggression, with aggression, or however you want to put it. it means the same thing.

I hate it when people argue semantics and act like it makes them "right" when the meaning is still the same.

and I really gotta wonder where people are doing their training??? I've seen some things I would classify as stupid ****, crazy, out of line, etc, but seriously, even in clubs that I don't really like the basis for the way they train I haven't witnessed that many things over the years that would give me the impression that over aggressive liabilities were the goal of schutzhund.

The overwhelming majority of people I meet have decent dogs and most really care about what they are doing and how.


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## Samba

I have a male out of a long list of BSP participants. He is from long lines of dogs doing SchH at high levels. One would think we could see a lot about the "type" of dogs suitable for SchH there. He is himself certainly suitable. He is a very stable dog and happy with any people who are non-threatening. He adores children. He does not give crazy chase to things. He ruffles our cat but would not harm our kitty as she is ours. There is no situation I would not be happy to walk into with him. 

He's exactly what I expected him to be and what I see at many schutzhund trials. Not all dogs are the same but owning aggression does not mean unstable in any way.

I placed a dog who had really nice aggression and worked as a police dog. He did not ever once behave aggressively toward a person we were around in the world. Socially very stable dog.

Over the years, I have known a number of dogs who have actually bitten someone. I have seen a GSD go after a approaching child. I have seen one go up the leash of a handler who took her to work her a bit. All ASL with nerve and fear issues. Saw one leap up from the ground at a show when a person was walking toward the owners. Saw one really try to nail a judge on examination the other day. Knew one well who came over the fence at a friend walking by and also she also flew onto the shoulder of the washer repair man.

Now, that is not to say there are not problem dogs everywhere, but I know where I have seen the most weakness and issues of concern.


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## selzer

Other than the lab jumping over the rally fence into the obedience ring into the border collie, a newfoundland that went for Heidi at a show, and an Akita that bit its handler in a show, I haven't seen many issues at all with dogs at shows. And I have been to a couple of shows in the last few years. 

I have yet to see and GSDs really misbehaving at shows, but give it time.


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## ShatteringGlass

Every SchH dog i know i can, pet, or give a scratch on the side... There's even several police K9s that frequently board at the facility i work at, and i can clean their runs while they're loose in it, most of them even rub up against my legs, asking for a scratch behind the ears. There's even one, Ajax, who has alot of street bites, who will jump up and put his paws on my shoulders and lick my face.

I'd like to know where all these SchH dogs are that cant even be touched by someone without biting their face off, just so i can be safe:rolleyes2:


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## Liesje

So true, Kelly. Many of the girls at my SchH club I consider friends and we do things with each other and our dogs outside of SchH. We can all approach and handle each others' dogs. In fact, we help each other with grooming, sometimes we stack or even handle each others' dogs at shows. I've played around with obedience with our TD's SchH3 GSD, even handled him for part of a protection routine. My own dogs are currently under the care of someone else while I'm on vacation. I also board them with a friend for a long stay at least once a year and she has no problems with them. I've taken my dogs to the dog beach which is packed with people and other dogs. Granted, my GSDs are very aloof with other people and dogs (as they should be!) but are always under my control, perfectly stable, and we enjoy ourselves whether we have a field to ourselves or a beach packed nearly elbow to elbow. My male that I'm currently preparing for SchH titles (and already has other titles including protection) is also working on a silly trick routine for my husband's second grade class. Yeah he's a real child eater *rolls eyes*. Of my own dogs, the ones where I feel I need to exercise more caution are actually the ones that aren't doing Schutzhund.


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## ShatteringGlass

Boston PD K9 officer Ajax, a SUPER nice dog. He bites people for a living, but he can be around me (someone who is NOT his handler or lives with him, or even sees on a regular basis) and not rip my arms or legs off. Doesnt that just make your brain explode??


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## codmaster

ShatteringGlass said:


> Boston PD K9 officer Ajax, a SUPER nice dog. He bites people for a living, but he can be around me (someone who is NOT his handler or lives with him, or even sees on a regular basis) and not rip my arms or legs off. Doesnt that just make your brain explode??


 
Nifty dog! What a working GSD should be like!


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