# Old German Shepherd/ Harzer Fuchs



## CaliAiko (Oct 11, 2014)

So I'm curious if anyone here owns or has knowledge about the Alte Deutsche Shäferhund (Old German Shepherd) and/or Harzer Fuchs (Harzer fox)? 

I currently reside in Germany (I am from California) and have recently added a little black shepherd pup named Gunner to my family  

Gunner's mother is a Harzer fuchs, which from my understanding refers to her red fox-like coat color. I did not see his father, but was told by the breeder that he was a schwarzer, or black shepherd. Gunner had two sisters who were gelbbacke, or "yellow cheeks", again referring to their coat pattern. Both of his parents were actively used as herding dogs. 

I noticed his mother was more border collie-like in regards to her build and size, which makes sense I suppose since here in Germany dogs are often still used for a purpose. I grew up around German shepherds back in the states so its interesting to see how different the breed is here and how much they can vary (DDR, Czech, AlteDeutsche Shaferhund/ Hutehund, Schafpudel)! 

When I decided to get a dog here I simply wanted a healthy Shepherd! After seeing Gunner's mother though and how she seemed more collie-like it made me curious- does anyone else own a harzer or Old German? Would you say they are different than most of the GSD's bred in the States? 

Gunner is only 8 weeks old so I'm not sure I can chime in much about his differences and similarities quite yet lol. I mean, he does look like a huge cuddly bear right now, so I guess that's one for similarities!


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## CaliAiko (Oct 11, 2014)

Here are a few pictures of my boy, Gunner. Also a picture of a Harzer fuchs, it's not an actual pic of his mother, but it gives an idea of her general appearance.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Huh. That's really interesting to see. It makes sense though that working shepherds may have variations in their structure, especially if they are actively working livestock. I love my shepherds, but some of the American bred ones I see today are just bred way too bulky and blocky to seem like they could herd very effectively.

Mine is actually a working line and has more of a collie look - smaller, longer, and leaner than most. Quick as a whip when he wants to be as well. I'm going to have to research further into Harzer shepherds. I know Kaiju's grandparents on his mother's side were imported from Germany. I wonder if they were these types of lines...

Anyways, cute pup! Love that innocent little face!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

had a friend who was an urban shepherd , moving a large flock around urban parks , roadsides , fields so that the sheep could graze , maintain turf and control weed and "volunteer" unwanted brush.

GSD aren't used much by wanderschaferei .
The dogs you mentioned aren't considered Old German Shepherd . There is an Alt Deutsche Schaferhund but that was more or less a created category to recognize and utilize long coated GSD before they were accepted .

The dogs you speak of are Altdeutscher Hutehund . Genetically they are part of the local , landrace , indigenous herding dogs which were featured in von Stephanitz book . Their genetics would have been incorporated . Many old pedigrees might have a dog listed as unknown , which does not mean the female escaped and had a fling while in heat . Many times the breed had to return to actual herding dogs to restore some qualities or preserve some qualities . They would not have been part of a public registry , but they would have been known and their background known.
Altdeutscher Hütehund

as you see by listings altdeutscher hutehunde is more a category than a breed . There are many types , and they can be bred within this group Suche kommt bald...

example a Fuchs to a Gelbacke .

Old German Shepherd here is an example Altdeutscher Schäferhund- Altdeutsche Schäferhunde- Altdeutsche Schäferhundwelpen- auch Langstockhaar Schäferhund genannt- Langhaar Schäferhund Welpen - von Schloss Bladenhorst.Wir züchten in den Farben schwarz rot braun. and then you look in to the pedigree and there is nothing OLD about it , in fact very modern with Zamp Thermodos http://www.wundrock.de/hunde/deckrueden/Zyrano/Zyrano.pdf


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## CaliAiko (Oct 11, 2014)

Okay that made a little more sense to me! All of the categories, types, land races was a little much for me at first. I was looking for a shepherd and when I came across all of these German "herding dogs" (I suppose that would be a more appropriate title?) I was like, whoa- I just want a German shepherd pup.


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## Ktisakpa (Nov 13, 2015)

*Old German Sheperd Dog "Fuchs".*

We used to have a retired Fuchs Old German Sheperd. She was a great dog and was active as a sheep-herding dog and also "helped" to train younger dogs and her own puppies. When her shepherd fell ill and eventually passed away, she was moved to a nearby abandoned animal shelter where my mother used to walk dogs. She immediately fell in love with her and we adopted her. This was in the former DDR where my parents had moved to from Berlin. We had had quite a few great dogs, but none was as great as her. She was easy with kids, crowds, other dogs, cats and extremely intelligent. The manager of the abandoned animals shelter was a former shepherd and once when their goats manage to break out they called for our dog to come and within seconds all the goats where herded back into their confinement.
She also had a tendency to round up our family (particular my kids), which in a busy city was quite practical. When my daughter jumped into a lake (2years old), she pulled her out. And when some moron set his dog on us (don't ask me why), he clumsily tried to bit her in the neck, which of course and purposefully was covered in thick fur (remember they would have had to fight wild animals off), she just dropped to the ground, scooped underneath the dog and went for his belly. 
The first time I took her to Berlin, I travelled with her on the U-Bahn and Busses, never guessing that she had never been to a city before, let alone on a train on bus.
The male German K9 dogs used to go quite crazy for her, on two occasions the K9 managed to get away from the handler, but she just sat down and ignored the K9 until the handler got his lovesick pooch back. 
Amazing stories we had with her, sadly she passed away after about seven years, she was already an older dog when we got her.
Now one of my sons is autistic and I am looking for a dog like her, to be his service dog, however, I no longer live in Germany but uk and have not yet found her race of dog here. Though I have seen this race of dog owned by others here in uk, but they usually refer to them as a collie - gsd x. If you do an internet search for Harzer Füchse, you should come across some helpful info.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I hope for their own sake that they never become "popular" and remain true to being selected for work breeding .


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