# Basic training.



## PuppyKono (Jun 30, 2012)

Ok so i have to go to some basic training classes, like sit down all that stuff, on monday since Kono is a little too ot of hand and my mom wants her a little trained since everyone is giving us looks like why isnt she trained. blah blah blah... and i know i should do so much obedience until she is older but i have to go... ANYWAY I was wondering when she does something good should i give her treats or a certain toy? Does it matter? To train her with? Since you do that with prey drive work and ive seen that with a jute tug when someones dog was good... Because when she is around 9 months I am going to bring her to a schutzhund club ive been talking with. 

Also since i have to go to the training. Do I not enforce it so much or what? Since you don't do much obedience training until later...

Thanks!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oookay, first off, you don't sound very motivated. Get that out of your system. Dogs know when you are motivated and when you are not and they will respond to that. 

It does matter what you train with. Not every dog is the same. Some dogs respond to food some dogs respond to a toy. But it also matters which toy is the right toy to reward your dog with. 

However, if you can train with food, train with food for as long as you can and let somebody who knows how to correctly reward a dog with a toy, show you how to do it right.


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## PuppyKono (Jun 30, 2012)

Ok its at petco unleashed thats where im going... I dont think they really do the whole toy thing because its puppy training for dogs that need training... not like schutzhund obedience...I they think its all about treats to them... I just wanted to know when training for schutzhund you do one or the other. Oh! Also I've heard that they sometimes teach them the wrong way or something... and that when i does come to training you have to teach them it all over again... whats the wrong way and the right way. 

And Im not thrilled just because Kono the other day when we were in there she started barking at a dog and the trainer said to use a muzzle when near dogs so she wont be able to bite.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I wouldn't be thrilled either...

Is there a reason why you can't start training at the club?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

My dogs have high food and prey drives, so I can use either motivation. So, I *teach* with food and *train* with toys. Dogs learn faster motivated with food... Prey drive after all, is a means to satisfy food drive at the end.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd not waste my time with petco training and go straight to the club. I'm not sure I understand why the wait to do obedience? I'd go so I could learn and watch. I agree with the posts above.
Motivation, go to club and train while teaching! If you get with a club now, your motivation level should come up. If you don't want to train now when your pup is a sponge, it will only get harder when pup is older and independent.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd not waste my time with petco training and go straight to the club. I'm not sure I understand why the wait to do obedience? I'd go so I could learn and watch. I agree with the posts above.
> Motivation, go to club and train while teaching! If you get with a club now, your motivation level should come up. If you don't want to train now when your pup is a sponge, it will only get harder when pup is older and independent.


I agree. Normal pet obedience is gonna set back schutzhund. Dogs with that background or AKC Ob I have to work to undo some of that training which takes several times the effort of teaching a new behavior. Normal OB trained dogs tend to really have trouble wanted to possess the sleeve and tend to shy from challenging a person directly.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've seen that too, the dog is dependent on the handler and inhibited because 'too much obedience' has been placed. Different training styles can work against a dog doing IPO, but it does depend on how you are training and I see competitive AKC handlers training with the same methods I do(because they are on board with Bridget Carlsens program). 
Engagement, drive building,capping isn't how petco trainers want to deal with pet home people.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Our schutzhund club has new puppy owners start with obedience and socialization from the get go. There is no reason to allow the pup to be a wild thing while you wait to start. We train with food to start and then transition to the toy along the way. We make it fun and exciting, we want the pup to be happy to come. You can get more formal later, but get the basics now and teach the pup to enjoy the experience of working with you.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

That is an interesting comment on the AKC OB issues. 

Most of the top trainers in Europe are looking at some of the top AKC Ob trainers and methods in the US. That is the training that will flow into the club level training, depending on exposure. 

Denise Frenzi, who started in SCH in the late 90's with her Utility CH Justin, is known for teaching high level OB for SCH. Same with Bridget Carlsen....


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> That is an interesting comment on the AKC OB issues.
> 
> Most of the top trainers in Europe are looking at some of the top AKC Ob trainers and methods in the US. That is the training that will flow into the club level training, depending on exposure.
> 
> Denise Frenzi, who started in SCH in the late 90's with her Utility CH Justin, is known for teaching high level OB for SCH. Same with Bridget Carlsen....


Yeah but top level competitors are nowhere near your vanilla pet training or average akc OB. A highly skilled trainer could likely do very well any any venue.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Yeah but top level competitors are nowhere near your vanilla pet training or average akc OB. A highly skilled trainer could likely do very well any any venue.


Absolutely agree. There is no comparison at all between the local AKC club and the top competitors in any kind of venue unless your local trainer is one of these top competitors.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You can find very good obedience trainers at local AKC clubs-at least thats been my experience -it does not have to be a top level competitor-


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Holland - I agree. I have friends that do AKC OB, at various levels. And a few have practices the OB routine for SCH and done better that most club level trainers that have been in it for years or have been training.....

As a trainer, one has to keep your mind open to see little things that other people do that can be analyzed, used and made part of training. Never the whole thing, but parts. And the trainer has to understand the whole picture....

If you automatically think that you can only pull from a top trainer in only a specific venue or in any venue- you are limiting yourself.

Gabor started used a stick for position heeling back in early 2000's. No one else that we saw at competitions did that until the next year....People that trained OB with him (just for minor things, few points to get V) -there are fotos of them with their current competition dog now, doing the same thing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Then you are extremely lucky, but not all of us are. I wouldn't recommend our local AKC club to a total beginner, let alone advanced person. You'd be better of teaching it yourself from youtube videos.

I honestly don't care what venue you are in, I pull from anywhere but only if I think you are complimenting and contributing to the training. If you do more damage than anything good than I stay as far away as possible.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland said:


> You can find very good obedience trainers at local AKC clubs-at least thats been my experience -it does not have to be a top level competitor-


I agree, though when doing IPO, some trainers may put 'too much obedience' on the dog with certain methods which makes the dog inhibited. 
So it is best, if you are planning on doing IPO to go to an IPO club for foundation training, rather than a petsmart or pet obedience class when the puppy is in sponge mode. 
Unless of course, you know what you want to do, and just go to those classes for some socialization and work on your own program, using the venue and other dogs as distractions.

I'd rather not have to waste time fixing something that never needed to be taught in the first place.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Mrs. K,

Not lucky, but patient and take the time to look. 

Too many people want instant gratification - breeding, training, competing. They forget, even when told, that foundation is critical - work with people that do well, but do not be narrow minded and think that all that person's methods work for you and your dog. Experiences, dogs, people are all different.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Smithie86 said:


> Mrs. K,
> 
> Not lucky, but patient and take the time to look.
> 
> Too many people want instant gratification - breeding, training, competing. They forget, even when told, that foundation is critical - work with people that do well, but do not be narrow minded and think that all that person's methods work for you and your dog. Experiences, dogs, people are all different.


That is exactly what I did. Over the time you become extremely selective and it doesn't take five minutes to make up your mind and see if it fits you or doesn't. You learn to trust your feeling and if it doesn't feel right, all I can recommend is to stay away from it.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Mrs. K,

Take a bit of time and experience..., I agree


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> 'too much obedience'


the breeder of my pup told me this too.


Mrs.K said:


> Then you are extremely lucky, but not all of us are.


 agree comepletely



Smithie86 said:


> Mrs. K,
> 
> Not lucky, but patient and take the time to look.
> 
> Too many people want instant gratification - breeding, training, competing. They forget, even when told, that foundation is critical - work with people that do well, but do not be narrow minded and think that all that person's methods work for you and your dog. Experiences, dogs, people are all different.


some doesnt have the option, what they have in their area is crappy, doing heeling in a 2 car garage size area where dogs are bumping at each others behind!


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## PuppyKono (Jun 30, 2012)

Im not at a club yet. I am talking with one but no set date when I can go visit.
Yeah My mom paid for the classes I don't think she'll be too happy about not going or asking for a refund. 



hunterisgreat said:


> My dogs have high food and prey drives, so I can use either motivation. So, I *teach* with food and *train* with toys. Dogs learn faster motivated with food... Prey drive after all, is a means to satisfy food drive at the end.


I think I'll do that C: She seems to like the treats when learning new stuff and then when she knows it she may just do it for a toy! Thanks



bocron said:


> Our schutzhund club has new puppy owners start with obedience and socialization from the get go. There is no reason to allow the pup to be a wild thing while you wait to start. We train with food to start and then transition to the toy along the way. We make it fun and exciting, we want the pup to be happy to come. You can get more formal later, but get the basics now and teach the pup to enjoy the experience of working with you.


Alright Thanks C: That sounds like a good way to do things!


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Then you are extremely lucky, but not all of us are. I wouldn't recommend our local AKC club to a total beginner, let alone advanced person. You'd be better of teaching it yourself from youtube videos.


I belong to a good AKC club. Not all trainers there use the same methods, but there are some excellent obedience dogs there. 

But when I'm getting ready to trial a dog, I finish him with a trainer who also has a Schutzhund club.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's the issue with training...when its your first dog, you have no idea what's right and what isn't. You can look at youtube videos all you want but without someone there showing you what you're doing wrong...or nit picking all the mistakes you might be making with the leash, with the treat, with the toy, ect.

But even picking a trainer, who knows what's good and what isn't? Many people will see their dog become a great pet and not worry about it. I've realized very rarely do you get lucky enough that your first dog becomes a competition dog.

But to everyone else...what is a top level competitor in your minds? Like for Schutzhund I'm guessing its someone with the goal to be at nationals. But AKC wise...is it someone that's going for UDX? UD? Someone going for an OTCH?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's not even so much being a top competitor. My sister is a a trainer in Jumping & Dressage. She taught Kids in Dressage when she was 17 years old, already. She had a lot of talent and a lot of her kids, back then, went to the regionals, state championships, high profile trials etc. 
That is a big deal for a trainer that young. She was a force to be reckoned with back then, and she is an even greater force now. Anywhere she and her students go now, they are not leaving without ribbon after ribbon and some students compete in the same level she does and if one of them wins, that's free advertisement right there. 

If you as a trainer, continuously, produce top competitors than you are a good trainer. If you bring your people to the top without worrying if one could actually become better than you, than you are worth every penny you may charge. 

You don't have to be a top competitor to be a good trainer. A trainer may not be a good competitor and a competitor may not be a good trainer.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Since this is the Schutzhund forum I will assume that is the OPs goal? If so then I don't see any reason NOT to train now and it shouldn't matter where. All the Schuthzund people I have met that have insisted you have to wait to start training or only do it this way bla bla bla have been people who have never done it any other way! So how would they even know? There's nothing wrong with waiting to start OB but there's nothing wrong with NOT waiting. First dog, tenth dog....doesn't matter, IMO. I learned a lot with my first dog (first dog I ever owned, not just first competition dog) but I also put twelve titles on her in less than three years. If you got a dog for training and competition then by all means go out and train it. You will make mistakes and probably get suckered into trying this or that by people that might not have any business owning a dog but the best way to learn is to try and to experience, not just wait or watch YouTube or sit here bickering about what type of trainer or club is best. It's YOUR dog; go with your gut.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Since this is the Schutzhund forum I will assume that is the OPs goal? If so then I don't see any reason NOT to train now and it shouldn't matter where. All the Schuthzund people I have met that have insisted you have to wait to start training or only do it this way bla bla bla have been people who have never done it any other way! So how would they even know? There's nothing wrong with waiting to start OB but there's nothing wrong with NOT waiting. First dog, tenth dog....doesn't matter, IMO. I learned a lot with my first dog (first dog I ever owned, not just first competition dog) but I also put twelve titles on her in less than three years. If you got a dog for training and competition then by all means go out and train it. You will make mistakes and probably get suckered into trying this or that by people that might not have any business owning a dog but the best way to learn is to try and to experience, not just wait or watch YouTube or sit here bickering about what type of trainer or club is best. It's YOUR dog; *go with your gut.*


That is the most important part. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. If it feels right, do it. 

Go with your gut is very very important and I couldn't agree more with Liesje. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Also, there is something to be learned from bad trainers and that is how to not do it. Watch and learn. 

Youtube Videos or Michael Ellis DVD's are nice but they can't really help you because without a spotter and somebody who corrects you right there and then, it's all just that, an educational video. 
You need to do it hands on, from scratch. Videos give you a good idea and it is good to film yourself and go back to see what needs to be done better or how your posture is. 

However, do what you think is right for your and follow your feeling. If you go somewhere and it doesn't feel right just by what you see, don't take your dog out. 
Many of us are guilty of it and we've paid a price for it. You will probably do it anyways, it's part of growing as a dog handler. 

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that sometimes, not doing anything at all is better than doing it wrong and having to correct it but it also means that we are way behind, however, in the long run it was worth it. It took me two years to find the group I was looking for. 

Sometimes you have to be patient and just keep looking but don't wait too long until the dog is too old. Which is also one of the reasons I have decided to take the three hour drive over an one hour drive. At least I know they are consistent. You have to weigh your options and see what fits your lifestyle and what yout can afford, not only timewise but also monetary.


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## summercricks (May 8, 2012)

I would try to go to the club asap. I just started training this past summer but I'm so glad that I started at the club because I would be behind in using other training than ahead at all. Some things will need re-taught for schutzhund. I took my girl to a CGC training sessions and everything she learned there was basically re-taught. So glad that didnt last long. I would also meet the trainers and the club members and see if u like the way they train and the people, if not then find somewhere else.


Sent from my iPod touch using PG Free


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## PuppyKono (Jun 30, 2012)

Alright good news C: I did get a schutzhund trainer to come out and see what she could do... He said she would be good for schutzhund and get me to how far I wanted to go. So the trainer is going to come every thursday since his club is full. Then he was like go to the lessons its good socialization for her and just take in the training just be aware that I will be saying the exact opposite!  So Thanks for all the information I've read over it and you guys have given very good advice!


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