# Hello, I'm new and have a question about a kennell



## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

Hello everyone, 

I'm new to the forum. 

Me and my husband have recently lost our Akita (she was rescued). We started recently looking for a new puppy and as my favorite breed was always German Shepherds since my first dog was one, we decided to look for a GSD puppy. We have talked to one of the breeders in AR that we wanted to get a puppy from and are unsure about some things. All of the dogs we ever had (at least I did) were rescued or adopted, even the purebred ones. So we never really dealt with actual kennels before. i don't know If I'm allowed to mention the name of the kennel. They recently moved from Texas to Arkansas, and some of the things about the contract, etc. bother us. They breed working dogs but have some mellow, pet-quality pups as well. We have seen the pups and they seem of sound temperament. For example:

• They are very proud of their dogs' pedigree (especially the grand sire's) but refuse to give us a copy. They are willing to show it to us, though, but not copy it.

• They demand (in a puppy contract) to feed certain vitamin or all guarantee on hips is void. They get a commission for us buying the vitamin.

• They told us that the grand-sire of pups is hip certified "excellent", but that they" didn't want to certify the parents because it doesn't guarantee good hips in puppies". It just doesn't make any sense to us. We haven't seen grandfather's guarantee yet. I believe we we are also not allowed a copy.

• The contract specifies a lot of exclusions and especially things like liver shunts and "luxating patella", as they "do not believe it's a genetic issue". it worries me. 

• The breeder told me that they don't know "much about mother's pedigree". 

• When we visited their place, we have seen that one of the nursing females who came out to greet us was extremely fearful. When I mentioned it to the owners they sort of dismissed it and said that she is always like that. 

• They had several (I think two) litters at the same time, and mentioned that they "always have puppies". They have 20 female dogs they breed and about five males plus occasionally bringing in other stud males. 

Most of the dogs temperaments seemed just fine. Their own breeding male was calm, stable and gorgeous and people-friendly, and the pups seemed stable. Health-wise we can't say anything. We can also say that they do breed a lot of dogs for law enforcement and the military, and are very proud of that fact. And some dogs are becoming house dogs that they breed for that purpose (pets). 

We have paid the deposit on the pup from the upcoming litter but if there is a risk of getting a sick puppy or something else going wrong we will be willing to give up our deposit and run instead of having our hearts broken and our wallets empty. But maybe all those things are totally normal especially since they do not breed show dogs but working dogs and pets.

Please, if you have any advice on this (and we scored the internet for advice already but too late) tell us what we think. If I'm allowed to mention the kennel name, I will be happy to.
Thank you,
Maria.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh my goodness -- I would PASS 

grandsire is a long way off from having any genetic benefit if the others , such as grand dam , OTHER grandsire , remember there are two of them not just one , and other grand dam , and their respective offspring , being the sire and dam of the pups are not up to parr.

Since they don't know much about the mother's pedigree THE most important pedigree of all it tells me that the females ancestry is average to unknown animals and someone took one of these to a well known male offered for stud and that would be your "grand sire" that they are bragging about.

PASS. 20 females -- PASS 

IF they are breeding working dogs then demand proof of where they are going to work !!!! To do so well and correctly takes dedication, and knowledge , it does not just happen -- the bar is set high.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Run away and never look back. There is nothing more to be said. Every line you posted about their kennel signaled back yard breeder.

Run Run Run

If you want a fearful dog with expensive health problems, that would be the only reason to buy from here.

Run Run Run

PLEASE!!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Run as fast as you can!!!! Can you say puppy mill?

If you need help picking out a breeder, just let us know where you are, what type of dog you are looking for, what you want in a dog, and what you want to do with it, and we can give you recommendations.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I totally agree! This sounds extremely fishy all the way around! Pedigrees should be available for inspection before you ever put money down. Hips should be done. They don't know what they're talking about from the sounds of it, and if they don't know... then it sounds like a BYB. A shy, fearful bitch will pass this onto her offspring. That is NOT something you want to deal with if you can help it!! Breeders of GSDs are a dime a dozen... finding a good one takes recommendations from those that know. You should be able to get the pedigree on both parents before you ever put a deposit down so it can be reviewed by those that know what to look for. The loss of your deposit is NOTHING compared to life with a fearful dog. It will cost you a lot more in time, money, and re-arranging your life to deal with that scenario than any deposit. Consider it a life lesson. It would be nice if all breeders were reputable. However, they aren't.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Pass.

While it is true that x r ayed parents does not guarantee puppies that will pass OFA, that is not an excuse not to x ray


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm usually lenient on other breeders, but by no means take a puppy from a fearful female....and anyone that breeds a fearful female does not have breed integrity!


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

OMO, I'd pass on this breeder. Get your deposit back and find someone reputable.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No way. Hopefully you can get your deposit back. The mere fact that you are here posting about all these red flags means that you have many doubts, too


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

definitely a BIG PASS


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Hmmmm, I agree - too many *red* flags waving in the breeze.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd pass for sure, hopefully you can get your money back


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There would be no reason I'd give my money to support that program. Read this:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

DITTO DITTO DITTO

So MANY MANY Red Flags!!!!!!!!! Not a knowledgable or reputable breeder....

Breeding dogs should have hips and elbows certified by either OFA or SV (or Canadian system if in Canada)

Parents - ESPECIALLY dam - should be at a minimum!!! neutral to strangers when introduced....friendly even

don't need to go on....everyone here says same thing!

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Run...run fast...run far...

There are many good breeders in your area. Start a new thread and ask for recommendations here. I"m sure you'll get lots of suggestions. And don't discount having a puppy shipped in from out of the area.


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

*Thank you! Wow.*

What a response. If only It was possible to figure out now how to get notifications sent to my e-mail when someone responded. Thank you very much!

We can't get the deposit back. The fearful bitch was not the mother of the upcoming litter. The mother was another female, which seemed very friendly and curious about us. I had all these doubts and I guess I should have. 

My husband here also is asking about this vitamin that we were supposed to be giving a future puppy: "NuVet Plus". I saw some other breeders online selling it and I can't figure out if it's a scam or an actually normal supplement. We are just curious. 

The thing that bothered me most was that we are not allowed a copy of parents' pedigree. We are not rich by all means and were not looking for a $1000 puppy, and these guys were not that expensive and we could afford a dog from them. I assume that any decent breeder would charge a lot more? I will post another thread but in general if anyone wants to say something we are looking for a potential puppy with gentle disposition, friendly, loving and willing to please (who isn't?). I have a disability (I can walk dogs though, still) and it doesn't have to be a service dog prospect but at least a great family pet, preferably soft enough for me to manage without a huge struggle. My husband is happy to obviously be a full-time dog owner too, we are on the same page with training and love the breed.


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## WestCoastGSD (Jan 7, 2011)

Like the other's have said PASS, waayyy to many red flags, hopefully your deposit was not too much $$$, but I guarantee that deposit will be a small loss compared to the high possibility of loss and issues with a puppy coming from a place like this one sounds. For one, if the litter is not older than two weeks they really should refund your deposit, they have plenty of time to resell the puppy. 

But to answer your NuVet question, I also sell it if my clients want it, but I do not require they purchase it as part of my contract. Unlike a lot of breeders I know that do sell it and require it to be fed or the void your contract, I actually feed it daily to all of my dogs, so my commissions cover the cost to feed it to my own dogs. I feel it is a good quality supplement and my dogs love them, I get a dirty look if it is not on top of their food at night LOL.

Good luck, I hope you are able to find a reputable breeder in your area.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The only reasons I can think that they might not want to give you a copy of the parents' pedigrees is if they don't have them or that they parents are closely related and they don't want you to know that. (For example, maybe it's a mother-son or brother-sister breeding, either accidental or deliberate.)

Are the papers actual AKC papers or are they a puppy mill registry like Continental Kennel Club (CKC)?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think I'd be able to not laugh if someone said they were proud of the pedigree and then refused to share it. Um.....hoooookaaaaay.....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

GoggyPower said:


> We are not rich by all means and were not looking for a $1000 puppy, and these guys were not that expensive and we could afford a dog from them. I assume that any decent breeder would charge a lot more? I will post another thread but in general if anyone wants to say something we are looking for a potential puppy with gentle disposition, friendly, loving and willing to please (who isn't?). I have a disability (I can walk dogs though, still) and it doesn't have to be a service dog prospect but at least a great family pet, preferably soft enough for me to manage without a huge struggle. My husband is happy to obviously be a full-time dog owner too, we are on the same page with training and love the breed.


True that a dog from a GOOD breeder will cost more, but they are worth it. A reputable breeder chargers more for their puppies but profits less. The reason being that they have spent so much time and money on their dogs on things like health checks, OFA's and working the dogs to prove what they are capable of. I don't want to think about how much money I have invested in my dog already and she is no where near where a reputable breeders dogs would be. 

I hope this makes sence. I'm still half asleep.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also some of what you are looking for is not how most GSDs are especially as puppies (my experience has been that they aren't real "soft" or "gentle" for 3-4 years) so it will be really important to find a good breeder that understands what you want and can provide it, not just a breeder that thinks their dogs are great and wants to sell you a puppy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GoggyPower said:


> If only It was possible to figure out now how to get notifications sent to my e-mail when someone responded.


Go into your User CP, go to Edit Options, and scroll down to Default Thread Subscription Mode. There is a setting to receive emails on subscribed threads. I believe that starting a thread automatically subscribes you, but I don't use that feature so I'm not 100% sure.


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Also some of what you are looking for is not how most GSDs are especially as puppies (my experience has been that they aren't real "soft" or "gentle" for 3-4 years) so it will be really important to find a good breeder that understands what you want and can provide it, not just a breeder that thinks their dogs are great and wants to sell you a puppy.


Got it. Yes, I know I had only one GSD before and I know a lot of people who had tougher and much less mushy  dogs than mine was but I also knew a lot of people with sweet, calm and patient shepherds that were extremely in tune with their owners and obeyed even without obedience training. Again, I lived in Russia at the time and all of those dogs were bred to be working dogs, say for military or police purposes-it's breed enthusiasts who made them companion and house dogs just because they loved them and because buying a GSD puppy (or rescuing one like we did) was not that difficult. All breeders seem to think that their puppies are the best ! It will be difficult to find an objective one.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What area are you in? Can you add your location to your profile? There are lots of good working line breeders in the US that could probably provide what you are looking for.


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

Liesje said:


> What area are you in? Can you add your location to your profile? There are lots of good working line breeders in the US that could probably provide what you are looking for.


Added! El Dorado, AR. It seems like we are far away from EVERYTHING.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

The obvious answer is the run far far away from these people. But I am curious, what exactly attracted you to them in the first place? Perhaps it will help direct you in the right direction if you can tell us what it is about these dogs that you LIKED. There must have been something (hopefully other than price and location) that would clue people in to recommend other breeders who breed quality dogs of a type that you like.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

GoggyPower said:


> What a response. If only It was possible to figure out now how to get notifications sent to my e-mail when someone responded. Thank you very much!
> 
> We can't get the deposit back. The fearful bitch was not the mother of the upcoming litter. The mother was another female, which seemed very friendly and curious about us. I had all these doubts and I guess I should have.
> 
> ...


I certainly understand what you are saying. A reputable breeder is going to charge more because quite frankly they spend more on their puppies before they go to their new homes to say nothing of what they spend on their breeding program. You can pretty much bet that the reputable breeder shows less profit. My suggestion (as it is to many prospective puppy owners) is to take your time - save your money for the more expensive puppy - don't rush - do your homework. You will be so much happier in the long run.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Oh, you couldn't pay me to take a puppy from that place. Red flags are screaming out at me from every direction. Cut your losses and find a reputable breeder!


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

Rerun said:


> The obvious answer is the run far far away from these people. But I am curious, what exactly attracted you to them in the first place? Perhaps it will help direct you in the right direction if you can tell us what it is about these dogs that you LIKED. There must have been something (hopefully other than price and location) that would clue people in to recommend other breeders who breed quality dogs of a type that you like.


Well, they were the only people whose dogs actually looked like German Shepherds in one of the classifieds. Everybody else turned out to be a scammer (shipping and advanced payment scams) or selling chihuahuas by the pound. I even reported a few scammers to the Consumer Fraud agency. But we didn't really know where to look so we scored local newspapers, eBay, places like that. A lot of BYBs there but also some breeders seemed legitimate. Pictures of their dogs reminded me of my past GSD, and the owners "talked the talk"-she was mentioning Sieger ratings, pedigrees, safer ways to vaccinate the dogs and how she doesn't over-vaccinate them, which is good. Sire looked gorgeous -in the picture and in real life, and he just licked my hand and stayed by our side even when the owners walked away for a few minutes to get the puppies. There are also things that we didn't like though, too.

I guess newspapers is not the best way to look for a dog


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> The only reasons I can think that they might not want to give you a copy of the parents' pedigrees is if they don't have them or that they parents are closely related and they don't want you to know that. (For example, maybe it's a mother-son or brother-sister breeding, either accidental or deliberate.)
> 
> Are the papers actual AKC papers or are they a puppy mill registry like Continental Kennel Club (CKC)?


Supposed to be AKC, but we never saw any papers. We are trying to correspond with the breeders still, trying to get our questions clearly answered one way or another, but they manage to dodge all questions and confuse us more and more. At first AKC papers were supposed to be given at the purchase, then they said that she will mail them after the purchase, now I'm seeing in the contract that we will only get them once we spay (or neuter) the dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did you sign a contract with the deposit? What was that contract? I would try to opt out and get it back....this breeder seems to be deceptive at best. BBB have any complaints logged?


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Did you sign a contract with the deposit? What was that contract? I would try to opt out and get it back....this breeder seems to be deceptive at best. BBB have any complaints logged?


Yep. Paid 150 bucks. Wasn't smart, eh? Signed the contract, didn't sign the vitamin / hip dysplasia addendum yet. Per contract, hip dysplasia guarantee is for two years, they prohibit the dog to be scanned before he/she is 1.5 y.o. After 1.5 y.o. we can scan his/her hips, and then if diagnosed with hip dysplasia we have to send the results to OFA. OFA is to determine if it's genetic (sounds strange, isn't it up to a vet?) and then to the breeders. They refund our dog and let us keep the dog. 

I don't think i can re-type the whole contract right now in the middle of the night I will figure something out tomorrow, how to render it here without any obvious give-aways. There is AR tax apparently , too..tax part looks legal, I looked it up. can I just PM the kennel name to someone so it's not in the open, maybe somebody here is actually familiar with their ..hmm..operation?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

If you are looking for a pet and don't want to pay a lot of money, why don't you go through a reputable rescue and adopt a german shepherd?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GoggyPower said:


> Yep. Paid 150 bucks. Wasn't smart, eh? Signed the contract, didn't sign the vitamin / hip dysplasia addendum yet. Per contract, hip dysplasia guarantee is for two years, they prohibit the dog to be scanned before he/she is 1.5 y.o. After 1.5 y.o. we can scan his/her hips, and then if diagnosed with hip dysplasia we have to send the results to OFA. OFA is to determine if it's genetic (sounds strange, isn't it up to a vet?) and then to the breeders. They refund our dog and let us keep the dog.
> 
> I don't think i can re-type the whole contract right now in the middle of the night I will figure something out tomorrow, how to render it here without any obvious give-aways. There is AR tax apparently , too..tax part looks legal, I looked it up. can I just PM the kennel name to someone so it's not in the open, maybe somebody here is actually familiar with their ..hmm..operation?


I know money is tight everywhere but I'd cut my losses. A 150 bucks is not "too bad". 

However, there is a super gorgeous female sitting in a shelter in Carson Animal Shelter California. Transport to Arizona could probably be arranged. 




https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...17815161.42019.135962783172489&type=1&theater

I know it's not a puppy but she sounds perfect for an active pet home. And if that dog doesn't have working line in her, I'll eat a broomstick!


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## bmerch (Sep 21, 2012)

They sound like FRUITLOOPS!!!!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

who sounds like fruitloop-Raina looks like Rorie-someone would get an awesome dog-its scary how much like Rorie she looks -hope she finds a good home...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Hopefully the OP is now deeply into the ---> Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums

and in particular ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

NEVER buy a puppy through eBay, Craigslist, or classified ad. It used to be that good breeders would sometimes advertise in the newspaper classifieds, but in the past 10 years or so, all I can find is BYBs, puppy mills, and scams in the local classifieds. I am not sure why this is, but since the advent of the internet, word of mouth reaches far and wide, and reputable breeders worldwide have become better known and do not need to advertise.

Yes, a reputable breeder will charge more for pups. Generally, $1500 and up. But it is SO worth the money when you get the dog of your dreams! Of course, there are never any guarantees in life, but a good breeder will stand by their dogs and be there to help if anything goes wrong... twice in my life, I've had puppies that just didn't work out for my household... both times, I was working with reputable breeders who not only refunded my money, but helped me re-home their dogs to more appropriate environments for them. They really care deeply about the breed, and their own dogs, and matching up the right pup to the right person.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...you know I haven't had fruit loops in ages...maybe I'll go get some...


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> If you are looking for a pet and don't want to pay a lot of money, why don't you go through a reputable rescue and adopt a german shepherd?


Because we don't want an adult dog. By the way, we are in Arkansas, not Arizona. We want to raise a puppy that we will know well and we don't want to rescue anymore. Simple as that. There is no amount of convincing us that will make it feel different. I have rescued, and my husband has rescued before. We don't want to have a project that we will have to "fix" for the years. Most dogs in shelters do have behavior issues rooted not only in previous owners BS training , but often in genetic defects. We want a house dog, with the hopeful makings of a therapy or a service animal or at least with makings of a friendly pet with stable nerves-my husband is pretty fit, but I have a chronic disability that will get worse over the years and we simply want to find a pup who would be similar in temperament to the dog I used to have. I brought her up and handled her at the age of 13. Dogs like this exist, in fact it seems (maybe I'm prejudiced)))))) like GSD is the only large/working breed that can be so people-oriented and pack-oriented. I have seen it in my friends shepherds as well. We want to bond with the pup, to teach and not re-teach it (re-train it), to make sure there is no past negative experiences in its life that we will have to work on for the rest of our existence.


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

Freestep said:


> NEVER buy a puppy through eBay, Craigslist, or classified ad. It used to be that good breeders would sometimes advertise in the newspaper classifieds, but in the past 10 years or so, all I can find is BYBs, puppy mills, and scams in the local classifieds. I am not sure why this is, but since the advent of the internet, word of mouth reaches far and wide, and reputable breeders worldwide have become better known and do not need to advertise.
> 
> Yes, a reputable breeder will charge more for pups. Generally, $1500 and up. But it is SO worth the money when you get the dog of your dreams! Of course, there are never any guarantees in life, but a good breeder will stand by their dogs and be there to help if anything goes wrong... twice in my life, I've had puppies that just didn't work out for my household... both times, I was working with reputable breeders who not only refunded my money, but helped me re-home their dogs to more appropriate environments for them. They really care deeply about the breed, and their own dogs, and matching up the right pup to the right person.


We learned it the hard way....:-(((


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

She is so pretty though...(Reina)


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...and wouldn't you rather live in Arizona than Arkansas?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Have you seen this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/190938-brag-macha-gets-job.html

Christine is a breeder I'd definitely get a dog from, and she just recently placed one as a service dog.


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you seen this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/190938-brag-macha-gets-job.html
> 
> Christine is a breeder I'd definitely get a dog from, and she just recently placed one as a service dog.


Thank you! Where is this breeder located? Ah, i'll try and just message this lady if it's OK.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

She's in Virginia, there's a link to her website in her signature.


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

She is in Virginia....Oi.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

GoggyPower said:


> She is in Virginia....Oi.


Good breeders ship all the time. 

There are lots of good breeders on this forum plus others people know about. I would start a new thread asking for recomendations. In that thread give a detailed description of what you're looking for (temperment,energy level, what you plan on doing with him/her and so on) and I'm sure you will find the perfect one. Christine is a good place to start. Happy hunting


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GoggyPower said:


> She is in Virginia....Oi.


That is WAY closer to you than Halo's breeder was to me - we live in the SF Bay Area and had Halo shipped to us from Connecticut!


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## GoggyPower (Sep 19, 2012)

*Thank you*

We found the breeder we needed. Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions and great advice, if we didn't come here we would have never found what we were looking for! -Maria and Mike 
P.S. yes, we are reading all the stickies.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I know of a nice litter in Oklahoma with a friend of mine... if you are still interested. Puppies are just over 2 weeks old. Parents are health tested, father well titled, mother working on titles and has BH already. Puppies are raised in house. I've personally met the father, very nice dog. Did a breeding to him a few weeks ago. Feel free to PM me if you'd like further information.


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