# Breeders for Long Haired + Large German Shepherds



## LaWFuLEviL

Hey guys !

First of all let me tell you that I went through many pictures of your puppies and all of them are just gorgeous !

Ever since I was a kid, as far as I can go back and try to remember, I have always wanted to get a German Shepherd. My parents didn't allow that for many reasons. I thought to myself I will get one when I get my own house.

20 years later, I think the time has finally come and I cannot wait to get a puppy. Since I have had time to think about this over the years, I really know what kind of German Shepherd I want. And by that I mean I know how the puppy should look and behave, but I cannot put technical terms on it, like the ones most of you have put as "signatures" when you post something, I don't understand what they mean (ofcourse I need to read more). I also have the name picked out, which also I had decided when I was kid.

So basically this is what I am looking for in my puppy :

Male
Long haired
Black/Red or Black/Tan or Black/Silver (More black in all cases)
As large as possible when adult
High energy, activity level and playfulness
Low aggression, must be loving and mingle easily with kids and other dogs, family dog type
Protective nature
Trainable for showings and competitions
It may be difficult to get all that in one puppy, ofcourse I know I must compromise in some aspects, but thats what my ideal puppy should be like.

I am an active person, into running, biking and many other sports. I would like to take my puppy everywhere I can. He has all rights to enjoy life, see the world and have different experiences and not just keep him confined to one place like home. At some point in his life, I would also like him to breed (like I said experience everything :smirk. I would like to train him for competitions and showings, every species has a purpose, with purpose the mental and physical nature flourishes, thus working towards a better life ( I am sure dogs get bored too).

I currently live in Rochester,NY (Western/Upstate NY) and I have been going through some threads and from what I understand there are no good breeders around this area, some members have had bad experiences. Ofcourse like any other prospective pet parent I would like to avoid such breeders. Therefore, I am looking for a really good breeder who may have a puppy with the qualities described above, from any part of US. The breeder should be able to ship the puppy to me.

Needless to say, the puppy must be purebred, healthy with all standard shots and vet stuff done, with all paperwork, AKC registration ( is this possible for a Black/Silver puppy ?), health guarentee, hips, elbows, bones checked and confirmed, Champion bloodline or Champion Sired.


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## qbchottu

When researching any breeder, read this beforehand:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

"Large as possible" is not what you should be hunting for when looking for a GSD. GSDs are medium/large dogs and here is the breed standard for size/weight:
Weight 
Male 30–40 kilograms (66–88 lb)
Female 22–32 kilograms (49–71 lb)
Height 
Male 60–65 centimetres (24–26 in)
Female 53–60 centimetres (21–24 in)
An oversized GSD will not be agile, is more likely to experience joint issues and might not be the active running partner you envision. Choose a breeder that breeds within the breed standard and stands behinds their guarantees. Size is the last thing you should be selecting for...especially in a joint issue prone dog like the GSD. 

You mentioned you wanted to show the dog? The SV just started allowing long coats. What venue did you want to show this dog? Long coats are limited in where they can show because they are considered outside the breed standard. Most (if not all) reputable breeders will not breed for long coats.


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## LaWFuLEviL

I had enquired at the local German Shepherd Dog Club of Rochester,NY Inc. for breeders who have signed the "Code of Ethics" and I was recommended the following breeders :


Steven and Ann Barbash
Diane or Darcy Rombough
Robin St. George
Sharon Wunder
Also, my online research brought me to these two website : 


http://www.newyorkgermanshepherdbreeders.net/
http://www.germanshepherdbreedersinnewyork.com/

Does anyone have anything to say about the breeders mentioned above and/or the websites mentioned above ?
Can anyone recommend me really good breeders from anywhere in the US ?


Thanks a lot guys !


Can't wait get my puppy !


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## qbchottu

The following link will be a good thread for you to read because I noticed about a half dozen breeder "catch phrases" used in your post. Beware of catch phrases that cannot be backed up! Any reputable breeder will be able to present his or her dog in an honest and direct manner. They don't need flowery or stylized language to draw you in. Their dogs stand for themselves. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-puppy/179952-breeder-catch-phrases.html


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## doggiedad

you can find everything you listed in a pup. a dog within the
standard is big. when it comes to protection some GSD's are
naturally protective and some not as much. leave the breeding
to the pros.

[QUOTE=LaWFuLEviL;2489465]





So basically this is what I am looking for in my puppy :

Male
Long haired
Black/Red or Black/Tan or Black/Silver (More black in all cases)
>>>> As large as possible when adult<<<<

energy, activity level and playfulness
Low aggression, must be loving and mingle easily with kids and other dogs, family dog type
>>>> Protective nature<<<<

Trainable for showings and competitions
It may be difficult to get all that in one puppy, ofcourse I know I must compromise in some aspects, but thats what my ideal puppy should be like.

I am an active person, into running, biking and many other sports. I would like to take my puppy everywhere I can. He has all rights to enjoy life, see the world and have different experiences and not just keep him confined to one place like home.

>>>> At some point in his life, I would also like him to breed <<<<

(like I said experience everything :smirk. I would like to train him for competitions and showings, every species has a purpose, with purpose the mental and physical nature flourishes, thus working towards a better life ( I am sure dogs get bored too).



Needless to say, the puppy must be purebred, healthy with all standard shots and vet stuff done, with all paperwork, AKC registration ( is this possible for a Black/Silver puppy ?), health guarentee, hips, elbows, bones checked and confirmed, Champion bloodline or Champion Sired.[/QUOTE]


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## bocron

The names you listed seem to be breeders of American Showline German Shepherds.
Before choosing a breeder/pup it would be a good idea to learn the main "types" and figure out which is the one for you. It will help narrow down your search considerably.

Here are a couple of sites to get you started,

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

And some other info that may be useful,

How to tell a good breeder website from a bad one | | Ruffly Speaking: Dog photography and general dog nuttiness of all kinds. Kind of like Nutella.Ruffly Speaking: Dog photography and general dog nuttiness of all kinds. Kind of like Nutella.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Oh, you want Keefer. Sorry, he's already taken. 










Although he's not that large - at around 80 pounds he's well within the standard for a male, but with his large masculine head, big bones, and excess of hair he's often guessed as larger than he is - one time someone guesed 115 pounds! And just last week he was referred to as a "massive" dog. Keef is West German showlines, which is where you're going to find the black and red color you want, and also probably more longcoats than in other lines.

How big are you talking about when you say "as large as possible"? The male standard goes up to 88 pounds, but there are a lot of oversized GSDs out there. Generally, though, you're not going to get many recommendations for breeders deliberately producing dogs outside the standard, although it does happen in a litter unintentionally from time to time.


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## Liesje

FWIW an over sized, long-coated dog is not going to do that well if you want to show him.


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## Andaka

I have known Steve and Ann Barbash for years. They breed American Show Lines. I would recommend them as good people to deal with.


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## mahhi22

My LC girlie came from this breeder: House-Barrett introduces deep red and black Long Haired German Shepherds and the Long Coated German Shepherd Barrett

Although you don’t have to go all the way to Germany to get a LC GSD. I chose this breeder cuz I wanted a LC & liked how she bred vs the LC breeders in the US. I also didn’t want to wait for however long for a LC to pop up in a stock coat litter of the breeders in the US I did like. Cost wise w shipping my girlie didn’t cost all that much more than buying from a reputable US breeder. At almost 2yr old she is maturing into an all around great doggy. The males from this breeder are magnificent. They look like lions w their coat & large heads. If your budget can afford it I’d give Dagmar consideration if a LC is what you want.

BTW Debbie, I love Keefer & his dark mask :wub: Such a handsome boy!


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## Mrs.K

I don't know if I want some lawful evil guy to have a GSD LMAO!!!! :rofl:



What edition are you gaming, huh?


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## Freestep

LaWFuLEviL said:


> Male
> Long haired
> Black/Red or Black/Tan or Black/Silver (More black in all cases)
> As large as possible when adult
> High energy, activity level and playfulness
> Low aggression, must be loving and mingle easily with kids and other dogs, family dog type
> Protective nature
> Trainable for showings and competitions




What kind of showing/competing do you want to do with your dog? Are you talking about AKC conformation? German style conformation? Obedience? Schutzhund?

You should know that reputable breeders do NOT try to make their dogs "as large as possible". There is a standard for GSDs and it tops out at about 90 lb. for males. Much bigger than that, and you're getting into the "oversized" territory which is a whole 'nuther type of breeding, and probably not what you want. If you want to show in conformation, your dog should fit the standard, or he isn't going to be competitive.




> I am an active person, into running, biking and many other sports. I would like to take my puppy everywhere I can. He has all rights to enjoy life, see the world and have different experiences and not just keep him confined to one place like home. At some point in his life, I would also like him to breed (like I said experience everything :smirk. I would like to train him for competitions and showings, every species has a purpose, with purpose the mental and physical nature flourishes, thus working towards a better life ( I am sure dogs get bored too).


All that sounds great until you got to the "breeding" part. Dogs don't need to experience breeding to live full, rich, enjoyable lives; in fact, breeding carries with it some ethical and health concerns not the least of which is Brucellosis, a sexually transmitted disease. If you want to compete, show, and title your dog and are successful with it, you can start thinking about breeding at that point; otherwise, you won't get worthy females.

Have you looked into the different bloodlines? The breeders you linked to are American show lines, which is different from German show lines, which is different from working lines. They are all GSDs but are bred to emphasize different traits. You mentioned that you want a protective dog. American show lines are not bred for protection. German show lines aren't either, necessarily, but they do have to pass a SchH trial (obedience, protection, and tracking) before they go on to breeding. Working lines (the type that police k9s are selected from) are the most likely to be protective of you.


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## DianaM

If you want to experience breeding, find a mentor who you can be with while they breed, whelp, and raise dogs. IF you are mentoring under a knowledgeable breeder, you will learn about genetics, pedigrees, structure and temperament evaluations, and what to do when everything goes wrong WITHOUT losing your own money and pets and sanity. Then, after this and after shows and trials and after wondering where on Earth all your money went, you can consider experiencing breeding yourself. By then, you'll have a good idea of how to do it the right way, the way that doesn't create more burdens for the breed and its supporters. 

It sounds like you want an active, energetic dog with a solid on/off switch, very clearheaded with strong nerves, sound structure, and the right balance of aggression/fight/defense (more seriousness than sporty). It is easier to find breeders based on looks of a dog but much different than to find a breeder who focuses on what is between the ears.  Ask detailed questions on health, temperament, exposure to children, everyday activities, and work done with the dogs to better gauge a good match. 

A good breeder should be able to go into deep detail on pedigrees and why breedings were done and what to expect in litters. We have a few breeders on here that are living encyclopedias on just about every important GSD ever and the beneficial and detrimental combinations. It's up to you how deep you want to go but since long fur won't bite kids and colors don't determine activity level, look for breeders who have the knowledge to stack the deck in your favor and still ask thorough questions to help narrow down your search. 

Oh, and the GSD was never meant to be huge. It is technically a medium sized dog. There really aren't good breeders out there who specifically breed for giants, not in the sense that they breed for true GSD type, ability, and temperament. If you want huge and furry, go for a Shiloh.  And if you do want a dog with no aggression, you won't get a protective dog, so do also keep that in mind as well.


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## LaWFuLEviL

qbchottu - I will definitely go through the links you provided. Good to know about the standards for sizes. I was unaware of that, I would then like a puppy which could grow within the standard but pushing 80 LBS and 20" and above in height.  Basically as large as a male can get but within standards. Glad to know that SV has started recognizing LCs. I wouldn't pick the puppy according to the showing venue, instead I would like to pick a puppy and then think about the showing venues for LCs. So that's not a problem.

doggiedad - I dont mean to "breed" as like a breeder per se, but just thought that a dog should experience it once. It'll be great to see him hang out with his pups once. ( I think I am thinking too much here, this is too much in future and this thought might change over time). Anyway this issue shouldn't influence my choice of puppy currently.

bocron - how did you know that the breeders I mentioned do American Showline German Shepherds ? Did you find their websites ? Thanks for the links, I will definitely go through them.

Cassidy's Mom - Keefer looks fantastic ! The West German Showlines with LCs are sounding perfect to me. When I said "as large as possible" I didn't know about the breed standards, I would like him to be within the standard but on the heavier side, pushing 80s LBS and 20"+ tall.

Liesje - Point noted !

Andaka - Thanks for that, I have been trying to find their website, but I cannot find it. Do you know their website ? Where did you get your puppies from ?

mahhi22 - The link which you provided looks good, but they are in Germany and on their website they don't mention any prices and shipping, how did you manage to get your puppy here ? How much did it cost ? Can you private message me ? And yes, its that Lion look I am after 

Mrs. K - hahahahaha ! I was into V4 for a while.

Freestep - Thats such good info ! Thanks !! I understand now about the "as large as possible" thing. I would like to stay within standards as I explained others in this post. The breeding is not important at all, it shouldn't influence my choice of puppy at all. I under there are risks involved here, I might as well stay away from it. As much as I have read so far and what everyone has been telling me, I think I am more inclined towards German Show Lines.

So, Anyone know any good breeders for German Show Lines (hopefully LCs) across the US who would ship ?


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## marbury

DianaM said:


> If you want to experience breeding, find a mentor who you can be with while they breed, whelp, and raise dogs. IF you are mentoring under a knowledgeable breeder, you will learn about genetics, pedigrees, structure and temperament evaluations, and what to do when everything goes wrong WITHOUT losing your own money and pets and sanity. Then, after this and after shows and trials and after wondering where on Earth all your money went, you can consider experiencing breeding yourself. By then, you'll have a good idea of how to do it the right way, the way that doesn't create more burdens for the breed and its supporters.


This! I've been under my mentor for over two years (and have done pregnant/whelp rescues for twice that long), and I STILL am terrified of taking the step into doing my own breeding. It's really tempting when you own a pair of testicles to 'get into breeding', but it's usually extremely irresponsible to do so. Mentoring is an excellent way to be a part of the action, and if a nation-wide consortium of judges, the advice of your mentor, and an ideal bitch result from all that investment and your boy turns out to be the next international sensation it may be time to teach him what a collection is. But definitely not with a long coat, and most likely not without pretty significant drive. And certainly not cheaply!

It sounds like what you're really looking for is a King or Shiloh shepherd. They're not really GSDs, but if you want a big ol' friendly long coat dude to hang out with you on the couch and go on hikes occasionally they'll do. I personally find it insulting that they are even grouped with GSDs, but they have their place (as do most breeds). They often top out over 120lbs and are long coated. You won't be able to show and should NEVER breed, but you can still get a companion dog AKC number and do events.


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## LaWFuLEviL

DianaM - No breeding. Lets forget about that. Will definitely keep the points you mentioned in my mind when I speak to a breeder. Thanks !


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## LaWFuLEviL

marbury - After lissening to what everyone has to say, I realised that I would like to stay away from King or Shiloh. I want a pure German Shepherd. Lets forget the size and breeding. But I would still like a Long Coat. Looks like the German Show Line should have them ?


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## marbury

Try UKC breeders, since long coat is acceptable to show there.


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## Freestep

Longcoats are fairly common in German show lines, so that would be a good way to go. Males of these bloodlines commonly get to 80+ lb. They basically come in one color: black and red saddleback. I don't personally know of any breeders in your area, but there are some fine German showline breeders right here on this forum--hopefully they will pipe up and introduce themselves!


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## Andaka

I have bred most of my dogs, but haven't bred a litter in several years due to health issues of me and my family.


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## ~Saphira~

Majicforest breeders are breeding longhairs. I haven't gotten a puppy from there, so I can't say whether they are the best of the best or not, but you can check them out.


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## Lauri & The Gang

So you are set on long coat and you want a dark dog that is red/tan or silver and black.

Now you have to decide which TYPE (think "looks") you prefer.

These are the looks of the American Show Lines:

From moderate

What I consider to be a nice female (which she had a bit more head)​To extreme

In my opinion GSDs were NOT meant to look like this. ​
These are the looks of the German Show lines

From moderate

What I consider a nice male​To extreme

Again - they should NOT look like this!​


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## selzer

Lauri & The Gang said:


> So you are set on long coat and you want a dark dog that is red/tan or silver and black.
> 
> Now you have to decide which TYPE (think "looks") you prefer.
> 
> These are the looks of the American Show Lines:
> 
> From moderate
> What I consider to be a nice female (which she had a bit more head)​To extreme
> In my opinion GSDs were NOT meant to look like this. ​These are the looks of the German Show lines
> 
> From moderate
> What I consider a nice male​To extreme
> Again - they should NOT look like this!​


I know, off topic, but your extreme ASL, has a dog in its pedigree that is its own sire. I think that has to be some sort of astronomically special feat. I mean not many can claim to be their own sire, LOL! Check out Windwalker's Jolly Roger.


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## LARHAGE

LaWFuLEviL said:


> marbury - After lissening to what everyone has to say, I realised that I would like to stay away from King or Shiloh. I want a pure German Shepherd. Lets forget the size and breeding. But I would still like a Long Coat. Looks like the German Show Line should have them ?


If you'll post your location we can recommend breeders close to you, LC puppies are very common in WGSL so a nice puppy should be easy to find.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

selzer said:


> I know, off topic, but your extreme ASL, has a dog in its pedigree that is its own sire. I think that has to be some sort of astronomically special feat. I mean not many can claim to be their own sire, LOL! Check out Windwalker's Jolly Roger.


This song popped into my head when I read this


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## JakodaCD OA

I 'think" Pam at www.vonhena-c.com has a couple of coated puppies available, she is in NH, may not be the color your looking for, but just throwing that out there


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## holland

Steve and Ann Barbash and Darcy all were helpful when I was interested in learning about show handling Steve teaches handling all breeds-its a really fun class--would reccommend contacting them--


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## RubyTuesday

> marbury - After lissening to what everyone has to say, I realised that I would like to stay away from King or Shiloh. I want a pure German Shepherd. Lets forget the size and breeding. But I would still like a Long Coat. Looks like the German Show Line should have them ?


That's a very wise decision, IMO. Kings & Shilohs are often rife with health & temperament problems. Even the mentally sounds examples are (IMO) much too soft. They're usually big & often rather pretty but there's not much more to recommend 'em & those 2 things are simply nowhere near enough.

FTR, neither Kings nor Shilohs can be registered with either the AKC or the UKC, which precludes conformation showing in both venues. All too often Kings & Shilohs are recommended with little forethought or detailed knowledge of the breeds simply b/c people are opposed to anyone considering an over sized GSD.

LaWFuLEviL, it sounds as though you're most interested in a LC within the standard for size. I think it's probably still difficult to show a LC 'successfully' but if that's not crucial, go for it! Personally, if a LC was important to me I'd seek out breeders either breeding for it, not breeding away from it or who routinely gets a lot of 'em. IF you go with a breeder who only occasionally get a L it could increase your waiting time. Conversely, it could decrease the # of pups available to you. You don't want to wind up with a pup that has the coat you want but falls short on other qualities.


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## RubyTuesday

> That's a very wise decision, IMO. Kings & Shilohs are often rife with health & temperament problems. Even the mentally sounds examples are (IMO) much too soft. They're usually big & often rather pretty but there's not much more to recommend 'em & those 2 things are simply nowhere near enough.


It was pointed out to me in another thread that my remarks on Shilohs & Kings are inaccurate & unfair. This is true. I was wrong to generalize to such an extent. I remain convinced they're rife with health & temperament problems. For this reason I don't think it's right to casually recommend them whenever someone asks about acquiring an over sized GSD. However, apart from the health/temperament issues, they're considerably more than just big & pretty. They're usually quite smart, easily trained & very biddable. They are, for my tastes, excessively soft, but this is a matter of preference. For that matter, numerous over sized GSD breeders select for what I consider to be an overly soft temperament. 

My apologies for the unkind, unfair & inaccurate generalization about Kings & Shilohs. I will not repeat the error.


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## LaWFuLEviL

I am overwhelmed with the response and the knowledge all of you possess.

After all the research and you guys enlightening me, I have decided to go for *Long Coated WGSL *(darker coloured)

This is the list of breeders I am considering for LC WGSL, some of which are mentioned by some of you and some I found from else where : 


Drache Feld German Shepherds : http://www.drachefeld.com
Patchwork Shepherds : http://patchworkshepherds.com/
Kennels Von Lotta : German Shepherd puppies for sale | German Shepherds for sale | German Shepherd dogs for sale
Majic Forest Shepherds : Long Coat German Shepherd Breeders | Majic Forest Shepherds
House-Barret : House-Barrett introduces deep red and black Long Haired German Shepherds and the Long Coated German Shepherd Barrett (In Germany)
von-Hena C : Breeders of German Shepherds & Cairn Terriers | NH & MA | New Hampshire & Massachusetts - Pam Lake, Owner
I am also considering to contact Steve and Ann Barbash who seem to be holding high posts at the German Shepherd Dog Club of Rochester, NY and train GSDs.

None of you guys spoke anything about these websites which I had mentioned :
http://www.newyorkgermanshepherdbreeders.net/ http://www.germanshepherdbreedersinnewyork.com/ 

These websites mentioned offer life-time health guarentee. Is this possible ? Do good breeders offer life-time health guarentee for the pups ? I contacted the House-Barret (In Germany) and they said they don't do health guarentee. Any thoughts about this ? Should I be looking for breeders who give guarentees ?

How many of you have shipped puppies ? Is this safe for the puppy ? Anyone shipped overseas ?


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## LaWFuLEviL

Lauri & The Gang - This doesn't at all look right. I hope the dog is not in any pain. Ouch !
Again - they should NOT look like this!


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## bocron

Of all the breeders you listed I can only speak about von Lotta. I have had 4-5 clients (we do professional training) over the last few years who have pups from von Lotta. Overall I really like her dogs. Of those I have seen here they are nice WGSL dogs and are steady and have done well in training and those that participated in daycare were appropriately social. 
I know nothing about the other breeders personally, but like I'm sure you know, just do your homework.


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## RubyTuesday

I believe Robin of Huerta Hof breeds WGSL. I don't know her dogs, but those who have them have been very happy. Robin herself exemplifies class. IF I was interested in WGSL I'd absolutely have her on my list.

Again, I don't know the Magic Forest dogs, but if their temperament is a tenth as good as that of the breeder they're made of solid stuff.


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## LaWFuLEviL

RubyTuesday said:


> I believe Robin of Huerta Hof breeds WGSL. I don't know her dogs, but those who have them have been very happy. Robin herself exemplifies class. IF I was interested in WGSL I'd absolutely have her on my list.
> 
> Again, I don't know the Magic Forest dogs, but if their temperament is a tenth as good as that of the breeder they're made of solid stuff.


Thanks ! I'll add them to my list as well.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Hey, we don't have any coaties, and certainly no coatie pups, but if you ever want to hang out Big Dogs Big Hearts Rescue Buffalo NY Rochester NY and help at events or anything, let me know!


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## vomlittlehaus

I'm late jumping in on this thread. There are several of us reputable breeders in the Rochester area. The Barbarash's are very nice people. Took two pups to them last year and did the handling class. It was fun. I will probably go back and do some more soon (now that the weather is nice again). The German Shepherd Dog Club of Rochester is mostly comprised of american show line breeders. 
Did you look up Gary Putz? He is located in Webster. West German Show lines. 
If you would like, you are more than welcome to come over and see working line dogs, well bitches. I have three at my house right now. Just to get an idea of proper size and structure you will have with an adult. I have a pup from a Hena-c sire and my bitch. Well she is about 15 months now. But still very much a puppy.


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## LaWFuLEviL

I did get in touch with one of the breeders on my list, when I told the breeder I am looking for a LC WGSL, the breeder replied saying "What is WGSL ? We have eastern german showlines.".

A couple of things about that. I am surprised that a breeder doesn't know what WGSL is. Is this not a commonly used term ? What does this say about the breeder ?

With my research so far, I have not come across *eastern* german showlines. How are they different and which one is better eastern or western ?

dawnandjr - Thanks a lot for that info, I am definitely gonna look up for Gary Putz. Thank you for the invitation to come and see your dogs/bitches. I'll let you know.

JeanKBBMMMAAN - Thanks for the info, but I am not looking to rescue a dog right now.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

No worries, we actually rescue the dogs - I was inviting you to events that are upcoming where there will be dogs to hang out with while you wait. Meeting lots of dogs in person - like going out to Dawn's, seeing what her dogs are like, going to events, seeing all the different dogs that are at those, going to things like Flyball, Obedience, Schutzhund, Herding competitions, you get an idea of dogs beyond their look and also get to understand what some of the paper/reading stuff really means. 

Boomtown, DOTCORNY, Buffalo Wings Flyball, Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training, there's Debbie Zappia, and dog events like I posted about...all help you to develop a good handle on what you do and don't want in a dog. I know I've seen hectic, agitated acting GSDs, sight hound like prey driven GSDs, nervy GSDs just from going to obedience classes...and I ask where their dogs are from. Sometimes I see ones that are nice examples of the breed. They seem to come from a local place but a lot of people do not recommend them - I am not sure of all the reasons, but the dogs are very nice. We get the same mix in rescue, though because a dog has to pass a temperament test, it can increase the likelihood that they are good solid dogs. DEFINITELY not asking you to rescue, just saying that the spectrum exists because we have created it as humans, and it is much more easily understood when you see dogs IRL.


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## LaWFuLEviL

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> No worries, we actually rescue the dogs - I was inviting you to events that are upcoming where there will be dogs to hang out with while you wait. Meeting lots of dogs in person - like going out to Dawn's, seeing what her dogs are like, going to events, seeing all the different dogs that are at those, going to things like Flyball, Obedience, Schutzhund, Herding competitions, you get an idea of dogs beyond their look and also get to understand what some of the paper/reading stuff really means.
> 
> Boomtown, DOTCORNY, Buffalo Wings Flyball, Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training, there's Debbie Zappia, and dog events like I posted about...all help you to develop a good handle on what you do and don't want in a dog. I know I've seen hectic, agitated acting GSDs, sight hound like prey driven GSDs, nervy GSDs just from going to obedience classes...and I ask where their dogs are from. Sometimes I see ones that are nice examples of the breed. They seem to come from a local place but a lot of people do not recommend them - I am not sure of all the reasons, but the dogs are very nice. We get the same mix in rescue, though because a dog has to pass a temperament test, it can increase the likelihood that they are good solid dogs. DEFINITELY not asking you to rescue, just saying that the spectrum exists because we have created it as humans, and it is much more easily understood when you see dogs IRL.


Thats wonderful. I have utmost respect for Rescuers, no doubt about that. Those events sound great, I'll start looking out for them over the Summer.


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## Freestep

LaWFuLEviL said:


> I have decided to go for *Long Coated WGSL *(darker coloured)


By "darker colored", do you mean more black? WGSL pretty much come in one color: Black and red saddleback. You can look for individuals with more black on the head and back, but it will be difficult to find a showline dog with a lot of black/dark color. There are V-rated Black, bicolor and dark sable dogs out there, but they generally do not come from showlines. If you do find darker colored WGSL, let us know, I'd be interested to see.

Show lines generally do have a deeper red pigment, so if that's what you mean by "darker colored", that should be easy to find.


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## Josie/Zeus

Alta Tollhaus sometimes have LC pups.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks! Excellent - that's good - those obedience places probably have some shows coming up - just keep looking on their websites, and the other ones, too. You will have a fun summer! The Buffalo Wings flyball team has 2 Wolfstraum dogs that are very nice...


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## lhczth

Agree with Jean. Get out, meet and spend time with the dogs. The more information you have the better decisions you will be able to make. Plus, going to dog events is fun.


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## LaWFuLEviL

Hey guys,

Some more questions :

- Are Working Lines and Show Lines bred seperately ? What happens if the mom is Working Line and Father is show line ? All German ofcourse.

- SCHH titles, is it necessary that the dogs parents must also have some kind of SCHH titles ?

- Does a dog lose its "pureness" if his grandmother or grandfather is "unknown"/not purebred ? Which means would the dog be considered by SV as purebred show line ?

I came across a breeder who has a litter coming up but the mom is clearly mentioned as working line. And I am looking for WGSL.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

More places to see dogs:

THIS will be interesting...
http://www.gvkc-ny.org/RochesterSpecialtiesPremiumList2012.pdf

I am not sure if the Specialty group is as extreme as it was about 9 years ago. 

Right hand side - down a bit - events:
Dog Boarding Rochester NY | Training | Grooming | Doggy Daycare | Boom Towne Canine Campus

This you have to check more often: Dog Obedience Training Club of Rochester NY - Events

USA Clubs - New England

Buffalo Wings Flyball - Home

I saw you had questions so I thought I'd do a bump with info...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

More places to see dogs:

THIS will be interesting...
http://www.gvkc-ny.org/RochesterSpecialtiesPremiumList2012.pdf

I am not sure if the Specialty group is as extreme as it was about 9 years ago. 

Right hand side - down a bit - events:
Dog Boarding Rochester NY | Training | Grooming | Doggy Daycare | Boom Towne Canine Campus

This you have to check more often: Dog Obedience Training Club of Rochester NY - Events

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/clubs/new_england.htm

Buffalo Wings Flyball - Home

I saw you had questions so I thought I'd do a bump with info...


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## Freestep

LaWFuLEviL said:


> - Are Working Lines and Show Lines bred seperately ? What happens if the mom is Working Line and Father is show line ? All German ofcourse.


Working lines and show lines are generally kept separate, because each is bred to a different purpose. Show lines excel in conformation and working lines excel in sport/working. To mix them together would be to dilute the best of both, in the breeder's mind. Some breeders do mix the lines together, but they really need to know what they are doing and have an in-depth knowledge of pedigrees, and a goal in mind. Some lines do not mix well.



> - SCHH titles, is it necessary that the dogs parents must also have some kind of SCHH titles ?


In Germany, yes, a GSD must have a SchH title (or a herding title) in order to get breeding rights. In America, there is no such requirement, but many breeders here voluntarily follow the German method.



> - Does a dog lose its "pureness" if his grandmother or grandfather is "unknown"/not purebred ?


Yes. In the GSD, all dogs in the pedigree must be registered, or the offspring is not registrable.



> I came across a breeder who has a litter coming up but the mom is clearly mentioned as working line. And I am looking for WGSL.


So they are mixing working and show line dogs? What is the purpose and goal they are trying to acheive? As I said, some lines don't mix well and the breeder needs to know exactly what they are putting together. It's like chemistry. Some combinations are synergistic, others are explosive.


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## LaWFuLEviL

Freestep said:


> Working lines and show lines are generally kept separate, because each is bred to a different purpose. Show lines excel in conformation and working lines excel in sport/working. To mix them together would be to dilute the best of both, in the breeder's mind. Some breeders do mix the lines together, but they really need to know what they are doing and have an in-depth knowledge of pedigrees, and a goal in mind. Some lines do not mix well.
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany, yes, a GSD must have a SchH title (or a herding title) in order to get breeding rights. In America, there is no such requirement, but many breeders here voluntarily follow the German method.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. In the GSD, all dogs in the pedigree must be registered, or the offspring is not registrable.
> 
> 
> 
> So they are mixing working and show line dogs? What is the purpose and goal they are trying to acheive? As I said, some lines don't mix well and the breeder needs to know exactly what they are putting together. It's like chemistry. Some combinations are synergistic, others are explosive.


Thanks a lot for the info !


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## LaWFuLEviL

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> More places to see dogs:
> 
> THIS will be interesting...
> http://www.gvkc-ny.org/RochesterSpecialtiesPremiumList2012.pdf
> 
> I am not sure if the Specialty group is as extreme as it was about 9 years ago.
> 
> Right hand side - down a bit - events:
> Dog Boarding Rochester NY | Training | Grooming | Doggy Daycare | Boom Towne Canine Campus
> 
> This you have to check more often: Dog Obedience Training Club of Rochester NY - Events
> 
> USA Clubs - New England
> 
> Buffalo Wings Flyball - Home
> 
> I saw you had questions so I thought I'd do a bump with info...


 
I must check out all this information. Thanks a lot ! The more the info, the better.


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## doggiedad

if you mix a WL and a SL why does it dilute the best of both?
why can't mixing a WL and a SL bring out the best?



Freestep said:


> Working lines and show lines are generally kept separate, because each is bred to a different purpose. Show lines excel in conformation and working lines excel in sport/working.
> 
> >>>> To mix them together would be to dilute the best of both, in the breeder's mind. <<<<
> 
> Some breeders do mix the lines together, but they really need to know what they are doing and have an in-depth knowledge of pedigrees, and a goal in mind. Some lines do not mix well.
> 
> 
> 
> In Germany, yes, a GSD must have a SchH title (or a herding title) in order to get breeding rights. In America, there is no such requirement, but many breeders here voluntarily follow the German method.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. In the GSD, all dogs in the pedigree must be registered, or the offspring is not registrable.
> 
> 
> 
> So they are mixing working and show line dogs? What is the purpose and goal they are trying to acheive? As I said, some lines don't mix well and the breeder needs to know exactly what they are putting together. It's like chemistry. Some combinations are synergistic, others are explosive.


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## LaWFuLEviL

doggiedad ... may be some other experts in the forum can answer that. But what I am worried about the mixing is, would the AKC shows recognize it.

Alright, another thing, I got in touch with one another breeder, the puppies are perfect as I like, long coated and WGSL, but they come with ASVD registration and he said I can only show them in UKC shows. What does this mean to me. How important is the difference between UKC and AKC ? or ASVD and SV ? Which one's better ?

Should I pursue looking for a breeder who usually breeds for SV registrations and hope for a LC in that ? But will that LC puppy be recognized by AKC ? If not, then whats the point ?


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## Andaka

The puppy could be recognized by AKC if the breeder uses AKC or SV for registrations. But, a long coat is a fault for conformation showing in AKC.


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## LaWFuLEviL

Andaka said:


> The puppy could be recognized by AKC if the breeder uses AKC or SV for registrations. But, a long coat is a fault for conformation showing in AKC.


So you mean to say, if the puppy is ASVD registered, it cannot be registered with AKC but only UKC.

Following with that, whats the impact on showing with UKC/ASVD registered puppies and AKC/SV registered ones ? How does it matter ?

Another breeder I am speaking to, is just not giving me the pedigree of the mother of the puppy. I got the father's pedigree, I got the mother's twin sister's pedigree but just not the mother's pedigree itself. What should I make of this ? The puppy himself is SV registered.


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## mahhi22

From what I’m reading it looks like an ASVD dog can’t be registered in either registry. Not that I’m an expert but: 

Per the AKC, Registering a Dog, a purebred dog is eligible for AKC registration if its litter has been registered. You can get an ILP (indefinite listing privilege) but won’t be able to show in conformation. The other AKC events (obedience, agility, etc) you can participate in with an ILP.

Per the UKC, United Kennel Club: Single Registration, a dog can be registered w them if the dog is registered with an acknowledged UKC registry. However, the ASVD is not listed as an acknowledged registry. Registries acknowledged by UKC: AKC – American Kennel Club, BKC – Bermuda Kennel Club, CKC – Canadian Kennel Club, FCI – Federation Cynologique Internationale & affiliated registries, FDSB - Field Dog Stud Book, NAVHDA - North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association & TKC – The Kennel Club. Like the AKC, the UKC has a limited privilege registration for their performance events. 

I think it’s dubious that a breeder won’t give you the dam’s pedigree & the puppy is supposedly SV registered. That doesn’t make sense & sounds fishy to me.


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## Emoore

LaWFuLEviL said:


> Another breeder I am speaking to, is just not giving me the pedigree of the mother of the puppy. I got the father's pedigree, I got the mother's twin sister's pedigree but just not the mother's pedigree itself. What should I make of this ? The puppy himself is SV registered.


I wouldn't worry about that if the pup is SV registered. Are they using pedigree database? That website is basically a wiki and not all dogs are listed.


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## LaWFuLEviL

Yep, the links provided to me are from pedigreedatabase.com.

So confused.


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## BlackthornGSD

LaWFuLEviL said:


> Another breeder I am speaking to, is just not giving me the pedigree of the mother of the puppy. I got the father's pedigree, I got the mother's twin sister's pedigree but just not the mother's pedigree itself. What should I make of this ? The puppy himself is SV registered.



The puppy cannot be SV registered if he was born anywhere other than Germany (it's more complicated than that--having to do with where the owners reside, etc.). If he was imported and has his own individual SV registration, then you can do the paperwork to get his registration transferred to the AKC. 

The mother's littermate pedigree is going to be the same as hers--but that is different than seeing the mother's registration paperwork. The SV registration paperwork *is* a certified copy of the pedigree. The AKC papers do not include a full pedigree. The breeder of the litter should have the mother's registration papers.

I suggest you ask the breeder about the AVSD registry and how it transfers to the US/AKC. It might not--it may just be a duplicate/secondary registration. You can also call or email AKC with specific questions about other registries.


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## BlackthornGSD

AKC doesn't care whether the pups are long-coated or not as far as whether you can register the puppy. All that matters to them is whether the parents are AKC registered or from an FCI/internationally recognized registration organization. 

I don't believe you can show a dog in AKC shows as a long-coated GSD (yet! I expect this will change in the next 3-4 years). But if you plan to breed or want to show in AKC venues (obedience, rally, agility, herding, etc.), you will probably find it easier to have a puppy that will be AKC registerable.


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## LaWFuLEviL

BlackthornGSD said:


> AKC doesn't care whether the pups are long-coated or not as far as whether you can register the puppy. All that matters to them is whether the parents are AKC registered or from an FCI/internationally recognized registration organization.
> 
> I don't believe you can show a dog in AKC shows as a long-coated GSD (yet! I expect this will change in the next 3-4 years). But if you plan to breed or want to show in AKC venues (obedience, rally, agility, herding, etc.), you will probably find it easier to have a puppy that will be AKC registerable.


 
Thanks a lot for the info Christine !!!!


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## msvette2u

A friend of mine who is a breeder says you can show a long-coat but forget winning with it.


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## Anitsisqua

msvette2u said:


> A friend of mine who is a breeder says you can show a long-coat but forget winning with it.


Actually, they've only recently begun to separate long-coats into their own category, so it's a good time to start showing one.


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## LaWFuLEviL

What do you guys think about Breezy Meadows ? Long-haired GSD ?


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## LaWFuLEviL

*ScHH titles*

Hey guys,

How does the ScHH titles work ?

If a mother or father of the puppy doesn't have a ScHH title, then is it not possible for the puppy to get a ScHH title ?


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## Freestep

A SchH title is something a dog must earn, and it all depends on the individual dog and his training. If his parents are SchH titled, it's a good sign, but no guarantee that the offspring will be able to title. On other side of the coin, if the dog has what it takes, he can earn his SchH title regardless of whether his parents did.

So yes, it is possible for a puppy to earn a SchH title even if his parent's didn't.


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## mahhi22

LaWFuLEviL said:


> What do you guys think about Breezy Meadows ? Long-haired GSD ?


I came across their website a few months ago. They look relatively new to breeding. I hadn't come across them when I was "shopping" for my LC a couple of years ago. My thoughts are, not bad. I would've given them consideration when I was looking. A good chance I might've even gone w them instead having my girl shipped across the Atlantic from Frankfurt. (Actually a pilot friend of mine tells me they fly over the North Pole). Although I own a LC, I must include my disclaimer: I am not an expert.


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## LaWFuLEviL

The reason I spoke about ScHh titles is coz I was going through the pedigree of MajicForest puppies and the dam doesn't have an ScHh title ... Nor does her mother and in turn her mother or similar.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## LaWFuLEviL

How do I post a picture here ? Only via a link ?


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## White_tempest7

mahhi22 said:


> My LC girlie came from this breeder: House-Barrett introduces deep red and black Long Haired German Shepherds and the Long Coated German Shepherd Barrett
> 
> Although you don’t have to go all the way to Germany to get a LC GSD. I chose this breeder cuz I wanted a LC & liked how she bred vs the LC breeders in the US. I also didn’t want to wait for however long for a LC to pop up in a stock coat litter of the breeders in the US I did like. Cost wise w shipping my girlie didn’t cost all that much more than buying from a reputable US breeder. At almost 2yr old she is maturing into an all around great doggy. The males from this breeder are magnificent. They look like lions w their coat & large heads. If your budget can afford it I’d give Dagmar consideration if a LC is what you want.



House Barrett is currently my top pick! I was wondering if you could tell me any more about your experience with Dagmar and her dogs. And any notes you may have on the dog you got from them. Also, Breezy Meadows is another I am considering, is there any reason you would go for them over Barrett? :help:


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## Carriesue

May be a little late to this thread but sounds like you're describing my dog. 

He is a WGSL/WGWL/EGWL/DDR cross... I know some people don't like crosses and you have to be careful that you find a breeder that knows what they're doing when putting these lines together. But so far my dog has been amazing, great off switch but can go go go when neccesary - we are just now dipping our toes into sports and he's passed his herding instinct test, showed a decent amount of drive with that and I think he would do well in other sports as well. He's also VERY smart and eager to work and train. I wouldn't say he'd be as good at some things as a full WL dog but for me he is the best of both worlds.

His dam was a solid black dog and he has a lot of black but I don't know if his mother being a black dog actually has any effect on his adult markings.


Untitled (2013-03-21 04:09:36) by Carriesue82, on Flickr

Untitled (2013-03-22 01:24:18) by Carriesue82, on Flickr

Untitled (2013-03-22 01:24:28) by Carriesue82, on Flickr


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## Carriesue

Oh oops, didn't see the date on this thread... Didn't realize it was quite that long ago.


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