# Do it yourself schutzhund...



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I took the 9 month old puppy out today for my son to work. It has been years since I attempted to do this stuff with a dog. He had one other session as a younger pup on just the tug. 

The pup barked aggressively and he bit well on the puppy sleeve. Okay, so I think he can do this a bit. 

What next? He is 9 months old. I remember Cliff and others talking about the approach of not working a youngster too much until they have maturity for balanced work. Now that I see he is gung ho, do I wait before beginning what has been in the past a rather disappointing search for helper work?

What is to be gained at this age? or lost?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have no advice Samba but would be interested in what other's have to say.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Think the next step will be to find a good club so you make sure to continue on the right path with this. I know other club members will also be a huge help to also work on the other 2/3 of the sport, the obedience and tracking.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Now that I see he is gung ho, do I wait before beginning what has been in the past a rather disappointing search for helper work?


 
Why wait to look? Just don't take the dog with you until you think you have found the right place.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, I guess I was just wondering if 9 months old was a good time to get him whacked off the puppy sleeve or to have a refrigerator stand and make a sleeve presentation!!!:crazy: 

I think, like some kind of parent, I want to keep him home from school one more year!!  The search is not so much fun! 

I need to find a training helper who consistently trains dogs to scores in the 90s. Perhaps it will happen.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I need to find a training helper who consistently trains dogs to scores in the 90s. Perhaps it will happen


No you don't. I can only recall a very short period of time where I have worked with an "experienced helper" and less time where I got along with them or felt my dog was getting the best training. That's the truth.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I believe you, really. The youngster needs to understand his power and clear victory. I think that has been one of the hardest scenarios to find. 

I guess I want a situation where I don't have to work so hard! But that really isn't a good idea based on previous discussions on the board regarding the handlers involvement in the protection training.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And I am not sure a 9 month old needs to see much anyhow. Find someone you can work with and meanwhile your boy can grow up a bit more.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was thinking he was still young enough to stay home! lol

I've been watching people work puppies on tug work, chase the tug, learn they are competing with helper for tug, grip work on the tug. Ugh! I have not done much of this. Hope I am not behind on this. Can I say watching Ivan B. makes me tired??aranoid:

I am feeling lazy but the weather is atrocious (ok to me anyway) and there is no indoor space nearby. Is there a great deal gained in puppy foundation work that can't be made up in the young dog?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Samba said:


> I am feeling lazy but the weather is atrocious (ok to me anyway) and there is no indoor space nearby. Is there a great deal gained in puppy foundation work that can't be made up in the young dog?


I've found that there's a TON of foundation work that can be done with puppies that is a huge help when you later begin the 'real' training. If you find a great club who works with puppies and can help you provide the foundation skills (for both pup and handler) I know I've seen amazing results from the adult dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A lot of the foundation work of barking, gripping, tugging you can do yourself. But the stuff you need a good helper for is subtle - each time, as the handler, I work a dog, I learn something new. 

You will need a helper to teach a dog to be proactive - to bark AT the helper to get the game going, as opposed as just barking at the tug, or the sleeve. You need a helper with presence to push the dog to improve confidence and push the helper back, not back off - these are extremely subtle moves, looks, stances, positions from a helper that can make a big difference in how a dog reacts. 

You need a helper who knows not just how to catch a dog, but how to read a dog - when is the pup loaded so high in drive he can't even think of barking - how to transfre the prey item bark from the tug to a defensive bark to the helper, and a bazillion other things that I yet do not know, have not yet noticed, cannot yet put in words. It is taking years for me to see, hear, understand what is going on. 

At nine months, as others have said, you can work on prey drive type skills, you probably don't really need a helper for that. You can work on control and focus, switching from prey-driven barking back to sitting and focusing on you, though with some dogs, too much control and focus introduced too early will stiffle their drives, others will need it right from the beginning to keep the dog for going out of control.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What people "need" and what they have available are two different things. Yeah, we can say all this stuff about how important a good helper is but I don't know many people who have that available to them...even the ones who "think" they do. I think people might be better off if they try to keep one foot in reality and realize that there are only a VERY few really talented training helpers. If you think you have one, well good for you, but lots of people don't. If you don't and have been on the receiving end of the ones who claim they are good helpers but basically blame the dogs for their lack of ability, it can be downright discouraging. Samba has already experienced that . I am pretty certain she will find the same situation once she goes out looking again. Where does that leave her? 
Most of the time, you will have better results forming a group, learning as much as you can and training your own helper. What you don't have immediately is offset by what could happen with your dog when you turn your training over to one of the "experienced" ones who set you back years or try to make a point using your dog as the example. This is a myth about how you need to find an experienced helper to train in SchH. What you need most is a really good dog and the ability to learn what the dog needs YOURSELF. The dog's owner is a BIG part of this and you have to know as much about protection training as you do about the rest. THAT is when you will have success, waiting for a great helper to come along to do it all for you is a fantasy. The US is simply too big and there are simply too few really talented helpers.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Samba said:


> I've been watching people work puppies on tug work, chase the tug, learn they are competing with helper for tug, grip work on the tug. .......
> 
> Is there a great deal gained in puppy foundation work that can't be made up in the young dog?


I have two 11 month old dogs that I am currently working. Both had a little barking/tug work and had been on a sleeve a few times last October. Deja is starting to show some maturity in how she acts around the other dogs so we did some barking work with her last Thursday with one bite. She worked extremely well and just slammed the sleeve. Did the same thing yesterday, but she saw all the people and turned into a puppy wanting to socialize. She still slammed the sleeve, but there was a difference in the barking. She isn't ready and will be put up again for awhile. Donovan is still all puppy. He isn't even close to being ready. He may not start until the fall or even over next winter. IMO there is no point in just getting out there and playing with him with a helper. 

Of course they are doing obedience and will be tracking once it quits snowing around here. :snowing:

I did pretty much the same thing with their mother. She worked a little bit after she stopped teething and then was put up until 11 months. She got one bite at a seminar and was put up again for 3 months. I could have put her up longer, but I HATE waiting. :blush:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think that Anne can train new helpers with some alacrity because the skills needed for the performance are second nature to her. It is harder if you are still making your way through the understanding and also trying to get someone else to understand also. I am not complaining about my situation though.... it is what it is. 

My history of finding a good club or helper is actually so painful one is reduced to some sick humor about it in the end! I often see people who believe they have it and then I see that perhaps they don't. But really if the dogs aren't suffering it doesn't feel right to say anything. If for no other reason than the fact that I know so well the "uhoh" moment that follows! 

Here I have had a return of wanting to try again! Oh well, we will see. For sure the dogs love the activity and really that is most of my motivation now. 

I think my pup is nice enough to do something. This whole dejavu thing reminds me of how often I thought that we do have good dogs being bred in the US, but it is not so recognizable because the ability to train and show their characteristics fully is so minimal here.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Then just send them out to CA so Anne can train them.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here are a few things to consider. These "great helpers" that people are referring to had to start some where. Did they all learn under the supervision of the world's greatest helpers? Uh no. There were a few people who started SchH in this country. There were no helpers here who trained us. There were Germans who came over for a week or two here and there and we tried to pick up as much as we could, when we could. However, the rest of the time, we were there trying to learn and working dogs to try to do that. Not much different than what MANY people are doing now is it? 
Yes, because I do helper work myself I have somewhat of an advantage when it comes to telling the many brand new helpers I work with what to do. Does that make it EASY for me? **** no. If you don't believe that, try working your own dog and telling the helper what to do at the same time and see how easy it is. 
 I am not suggesting that any of this is easy. It requires work and dedication and some natural ability. Having said that, I see LOTS of people who seem to have a natural ability and understanding in the other two phases but will simply throw in the towel when it comes to trying to decipher helper work. Why is that? Have they been convinced that they can never understand by people who want to control that aspect? I trained with a woman for years who never did helper work. Did she understand what needed to be done with her own dog? YES. She put an extreme amount of effort into understanding that aspect of the training. That's all I am saying. Most of you seem to have a great deal of curiosity about the other two phases and you seem to believe you have the ability to understand what it takes there but not in protection. I am simply saying, that is a mistake to allow yourself to think that way.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is a little advice for Samba. If you can find a club, or even using your son, simply tie your pup out and tease him without giving bites. If there is a club close by, you can always ask if you can come out and just tie your dog out to watch. Just make sure they clearly understand you do NOT want your pup to get any bites. This is what we used to do with all of our dogs. All the dogs were tied out along the fence at the training field. They were allowed to bark and carry on while watching protection. No bites, just there watching. That worked wonders and doesn't really require much skill from the helper. The other side of doing that is the conditioning the dog gets there just barking. Years ago, the best helpers would immediately comment on a dog's physical conditioning. They could see it immediately when they worked the dog. Now you hardly ever hear people talking about that. The dogs are in the crate and only brought out to work for three minutes and then back they go into the crate. Some people even have shock collars on the dogs to keep them quiet in the crate. THAT I really have a hard time comprehending.

We used to tie all the dogs out and let them watch. When the weather here permits we do that now. The dogs are allowed to bark and carry on and when the time comes, they are brought out to work and then put back on the fence. I watched a video or us working dogs about 25 years ago now. All the dogs were tied to poles and I went down the line working each dog. It seemed that I worked each dog for quite a while, and I was almost embarrassed at that until I realized that NONE of the dogs were tired. They were all in GREAT condition and could bark for hours it seemed. I don't recall having any problems getting dogs to bark back then. The conditioning and the dynamic of the dog being tied out to watch took care of that . It also will build the bite without even allowing the dog to do that.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Lisa, that is a lot of waiting! I am for that... what choice do I have?

Do you do prey drive promotion then to any great extent? It doesn't sound like it. Obviously prey drive is a large motivator in this for the dog and important in the overall picture. Drives develop with age, but I have often seen people spend a fair amount of time promoting their development also. (Not my lazy and now cold hiney, though).

:rofl: Believe me, I considered putting him on plane to LA but figured Anne has her hands full.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh funny! I was thinking yesterday that it was time to go to the large park and back tie the youngsters and let them watch an older dog work. It always seemed to build intensity.

The son is full-time work and college so he is hard to nab, but willing. Maybe this old chick will even have to do something. I won't have to make that "ssshhhhhing" sound either as they will hear my Depends rustling! It is so great to get older!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Depends on what you call drive promotion. I play with them myself, but, for me, they either have it or they don't. I use a ball or play with toys in the house. Nothing fancy, just normal play that I have done with all of my dogs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Now see, Lisa, you are woman after my own heart. I backtied the pup once and had someone do some tug work. He was all about that. So I see he has prey drive that will probably only get stronger with age. Check.

Then, I took him out the other day to see what he would do on the helper. Put a puppy sleeve on son and had him hide behind the car. He barked forcefully and consistently flushing him and out "making" him come to him. He was quick and hard to the sleeve, torquing it off him. So I think again, check, he has that.

Then I came to what to do next as I posted! Sure, I can wait because as I see it he shows some strength and willingness to engage. Someone is going to see that and want to push for more and then I will have a young dog in trouble out there. 

I could work on obedience and tracking but unfortunately he shows the most interest in the protection work at this point. His food drive is just not as good as it was a pup. Oh he pulls me to the track and he has always finished his track and indicates nicely... but just not so very intense as I would like. A bit of a funny distractable young male. Obedience is the same.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

It's interesting to read about tying pups to the fence during protection. Ike has been doing fence duty since he was 10 weeks old. But the thing that kind of puzzles me is he doesn't get super worked up watching the dogs anymore. The first few times he would bark and get agitated. Now he just mostly hangs out and watches. If they were doing an escape or bug out in front of him, then that get his interest. But the other stuff going on in the blind do not get a rise out of him. He's usually about 10 yards from the ruckus and he doesn't seem to be particularly affected by it. Just kind of hang out and watch like everyone else. Strange because usually he is so crazy ...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Samba said:


> Now see, Lisa, you are woman after my own heart.


HMMMMM Not sure if that is a good thing. Didn't you show up in the land of Wolverines wearing Buckeyes?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Jason L said:


> It's interesting to read about tying pups to the fence during protection. Ike has been doing fence duty since he was 10 weeks old. But the thing that kind of puzzles me is he doesn't get super worked up watching the dogs anymore. The first few times he would bark and get agitated. Now he just mostly hangs out and watches. If they were doing an escape or bug out in front of him, then that get his interest. But the other stuff going on in the blind do not get a rise out of him. He's usually about 10 yards from the ruckus and he doesn't seem to be particularly affected by it. Just kind of hang out and watch like everyone else. Strange because usually he is so crazy ...


It is interesting to read how different clubs do these kind of things. I used to bring Falkor out to watch the protection work when he was a wee puppy, he would get all hyped up and totally focused on what was going on, and when he started barking, I praised him and put him away to keep the level of excitement and expectation high. Reading how everyone does things differently, not sure if that was right, but whenever he saw a sleeve on the ground, he wanted to jump on it and kill it - so there was some connection made there with watching other dogs doing protection and his reaction to a sleeve. 

Now, Falkor turned out to be a bit crazy too . . . so my example may not be relevant to much  .

And just to continue on with the do-it-yourself SchH discussion - I don't know enough to know if we have those excellent super helpers, what I was saying is that before, it didn't matter to me what the helpers where doing, I was just having fun. But the more I learn, the more I worry about having good helpers - we have beginner helpers that work my dogs, and I'm fine with that, but we are all constantly learning and improving, helpers alike - and even at this stage, there is a lot that I would no be able to identify as being "bad" from a helper, but they still know a lot more than I do.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Ohhh, the Buckeyes.... well now you know I laugh in the face of danger!! 

Or I am incredibly stupid:silly:


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lucia, at first that's what we did too. Put him away when he is at his highest lvl of frustration, barking, lunging, jumping. But after awhile they just let him stayed and watched the whole thing. So that's what he does now. Between dogs, the helpers would come over and play with him a little and that gets him worked up. But just watching doesn't seem to do much for him.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

About the fence tying...I too have wondered about that when the dogs get relaxed and just watch and rest.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba, when I asked the TD about that, he said not to worry about it and just seeing and hearing the dogs barking, whip cracking, people shouting, all the brouhaha of training is good for him. But he seemed calmer about the whole thing then other pups though. I don't know ...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I too have wondered about that when the dogs get relaxed and just watch and rest.


 


> Samba, when I asked the TD about that, he said not to worry about it.....


 
I guess the question here is...what are you guys worried about?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't know, Anne. I just worry LOL. 

What would you say is the point of letting a pup watch protection? Is it to heighten his excitement for the work, to get him all riled up or is it to desensitize him to the "spectacle" of it all. Like I said, Ike used to get super crazy about it, but more often I let him watch, the calmer and "everyday" he got about the whole thing. Just wondering what goes through his head now when he is sitting there building his mud castle while a dog is barking and biting 10 yards away from him?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I asked you first. I already mentioned a few "advantages". What I want to know is....what do you think is happening that is negative when your dog is just sitting there?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, at first I thought is it avoidance? Does he not want to make a ruckus because there is a bigger dog nearby.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, well first of all, I don't tie out small pups that close. The pups I have on the field right now that we have not started are well away from what is going on. All the work they are seeing is at a distance. If that is the way it is set up, I don't worry about a dog not barking. They are seeing what is going on. 
The idea that you have to take the dog off the field when he is at his highest point, in my opinion is a little like the theory where you have to keep the dog locked away in a kennel all the time and only take him out when you work him. I am not a believer in that theory, Either you have a good dog or you don't. If he has to be bottled up all the time to be able to work, he isn't worth working.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I don't know enough to know if we have those excellent super helpers, what I was saying is that before, it didn't matter to me what the helpers where doing, I was just having fun. But the more I learn, the more I worry about having good helpers - we have beginner helpers that work my dogs, and I'm fine with that, but we are all constantly learning and improving, helpers alike - and even at this stage, there is a lot that I would no be able to identify as being "bad" from a helper, but they still know a lot more than I do.


 
They know a lot more than you because you let them know a lot more than you. 

Also, you are kind of making my point, not that you were arguing against it, but it is the same difference. You are in the same boat whether the helper is supposed to be good or not. How do you know for sure ???? At least with a new helper you really DO know what you are dealing with vs what someone is claiming they are. 
I don't think I know one person who does SchH that has not had a bad experience with an alleged " experienced helper". You have to have an idea of what decent helper work is and then you need to know what it is YOUR dog needs in the work. 
I see lots of edgy dogs nowadays who are worked way too high in defense. That, IMO, is not the answer for dogs like that but their owners sure don't seem to notice that their dog is growling on the sleeve all the time. Then there are the opposite scenarios where the dog is bored senseless and again, no one notices. 

I'm just saying, the training would be a little less treacherous if the handlers knew more about helper work.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Most of the time, you will have better results forming a group, learning as much as you can and training your own helper. What you don't have immediately is offset by what could happen with your dog when you turn your training over to one of the "experienced" ones who set you back years or try to make a point using your dog as the example. This is a myth about how you need to find an experienced helper to train in SchH. What you need most is a really good dog and the ability to learn what the dog needs YOURSELF. The dog's owner is a BIG part of this and you have to know as much about protection training as you do about the rest. THAT is when you will have success, waiting for a great helper to come along to do it all for you is a fantasy.


I can't even begin to say how much I agree with you.....


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Vandal said:


> The idea that you have to take the dog off the field when he is at his highest point, in my opinion is a little like the theory where you have to keep the dog locked away in a kennel all the time and only take him out when you work him. I am not a believer in that theory, Either you have a good dog or you don't. If he has to be bottled up all the time to be able to work, he isn't worth working.


Agree again......


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Vandal said:


> They know a lot more than you because you let them know a lot more than you.


And again I agree.....


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

When training, even with a helper, never underestimate the value of common sense. It's a great guide.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

As far as the tying out, I think I worry that the dog will not come into drive upon entering the field after having been there so much all relaxed about. 

Tonight I went to class and the obedience gets kinda boring. When there is standing about in the ring waiting our turn, I take my dog out of the ring. They are very green and I want to condition them to the ring as being where "its on". My older dog, I would not have been so concerned with that because she would come into drive for the exercises. I don't know that this holds a bit of water, really, it is just what I was thinking. I do a lot of playing and fun training in the ring with the pup and he will pull me into the ring when we get there. I guess I am thinking I want a dog that sees the performance area as the best place and to come into drive there. 

OK, I think I did my best to say what it is I think I am "worried" about.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have seen dogs tied out basically sleep during every session. Months passed until one day, that dog stood up and started barking and it was all go from there. It is much better to wait for the dog to show you he is ready and then work with what is there vs trying to find ways to get the dog to respond when basically, he just is not ready. How can you tell if your dog is ready when he is sitting in the crate in the car? You are talking about boring the dog but there is really nothing worse than working with a dog that is not ready to be worked. If they are not interested or not really ready to bite and the tug or rag is constantly presented , that is much worse than what you think you should be worried about here. Think of FB Samba and the issues that created. What I just described is more than just boring to the dog because the work doesn't trigger anything, the drive is not there and it is almost always done with the helper right on top of the dog which can create a number of problems. Even if the helper has the tug on a line and is swinging it around in front an only slightly interested dog, it is a mistake, IMO.

There are things the dogs will do that tell you that they are ready to start and then other things they do that tell you they are ready to move onto a different type of work. You have to be paying attention though. Allowing the dog to watch while tied out( at the right distance), is a great way to" passively" or indirectly work the dog. The dog is seeing what is going on, again, from a distance and without you there with him. They have to work by themselves quite a bit in SchH so, it is a good thing for the dog to be out across the field away from you. He is also watching from a DISTANCE and that aspect is really rather important. You need to keep the helper from going over and pestering the dog however because it seems many helpers just can't resist pushing it. Some of the biggest mistakes made in training happens when the helpers try to force the dog to respond. Many have no idea they are forcing it. Protection is about bringing out what is inside the dog genetically. That's why I keep saying you need a really good dog to do SchH. However, you have to wait until that really good dog is ready for every step you take with him. 

There are a large numbers of helpers who are trying to put the power in the dog vs bringing it out . Tying the dog out to watch brings it out of the dog without the pressure and it is easier to see when the dog is ready. You have to decide when it is enough I suppose and, yes, I would say there are always dogs that maybe you should not tie out. The dogs we worked years ago were a bit different than what we see a lot now. Nowadays, you see dogs with a rather pronounced edge to them. They are easy to reach and easy to stimulate. I think the problem with these kinds of dogs is that they LOOK more ready for certain types of work than they really are. Tying dogs out like that to work at a distance can actually be helpful. Builds confidence because the helper is away from them. Again, they are there working alone without you behind them also. Because of their more edgy serious nature, confidence is really important. Yes for all dog but especially those types. They also need age and maturity so, again, instead of leaving the dog in a crate, which in my opinion, is harmful in other ways, ( it feels really safe in the crate), why not tie the dog out to see the work?

More and more I am realizing that the old ways of doing things with the dogs are really the best ways. They are better for a number of reasons and the result, for me anyway, are much better. I started to wonder why it seemed to be harder to train my dogs in protection than it used to be and then I realized how much I had moved away from those old ways of doing things. It is easier for my helpers also and they can see right away what I am trying to tell them. They are also learning skills that most helpers no longer possess.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, now I can't wait to try some "tie out and watch" sessions. Darn the rain and mud that has become persistent here and now the "helper" has the flu.

I think my pup has an edge and is easily stimulated. In his first session, very easy to work and I thought ...note to self, don't get this dog working too high. 


It is interesting to me what is "lost" along the way sometimes in training evolution. I posted elsewhere regarding Dr. Dunbar's observations in obedience and what has been lost with newer trends over the past few decades.

I recently dug out some "old work" by an obedience competitor who has been successful for some 30 years and I wondered why did we abandon so much of this? Seems like there are similar things in protection training.


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## IslandStorm62 (Dec 12, 2009)

I read on a previous tread that protecion work doesn't start until they have acheived a higher level of obedience skills. It's easy to turn 'em on, cause they like to bite; not so easy to turn them off unless you have control through extensive obedience training. And I agree that 9 months is porbably a little too early for this...TR and OB not so much.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Ah. Next question, for me, would be where would most advise we "do-it-yourself"ers should go to learn good helper work when these wonderful and expereinced helpers are unavailable to us?

(same boat, same town as Samba... working on getting in better shape to be able to do helper work when Samba's "helper" can't... So really need to learn more myself.)


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

REally study vids of other helpers as well as go watch them in person. Ask questions and research.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

try this book: Welcome to Dogwise.com
It was recommended to me and was very, very helpful in learning about helper work.


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