# Taking the value out of a dog



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community. 

Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

If I was rehoming a dog the first thing I would do was spay/neuter

Just because the home you choose is wonderful doesn't mean they won't make mistakes or the dog ends up somewhere else. Even the possibility of my dog being stolen or used to breed would be enough for me to ensure it's done before they step out my door

As for sporting homes, they are far fewer then pet homes. It would make more sense for a dog to be "marketable" to a broader community would it not? One of the first things a rescue or responsible pet owner will ask is whether the dog is altered


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think that happens in any sporting community. Look at the value of a champion gelding to that of a stallion and look at the instances where prize winning race gelded race horses go to slaughter while stallions go to retirement homes.

That priority is a fault in us and how we view living, breathing, animals as things with a "value" other than just the value of life.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I had posted my feelings, then realized that the inferences already made in this thread are enough for me to say that whether someone is selling or rehoming a dog and under what terms and for how much is really no one's business unless they are involved with the dog or the situation. Attempting to discuss it on a forum like this will probably not end well!


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

So, I guess my Yoschi has no value because he's a monorchid and unbreedable? Despite the fact that he has a very strong Schutzhund pedigree.
He's still valuable to me.
LMAO
On the note of "value" I was interviewed at the park by the news the other day. They were asking about the sentimental value of dogs. Apparently a dog was accidentally euthenized a few years ago, and the family is taking it all the way to the Texas Supreme Court trying to sue for sentimental value. Apparently you can sue over the loss of any item that has sentimental value, despite not having any market value but you can't do the same for the loss of a family pet.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I personally have not seen many good working dogs struggling to find homes because they were desexed, although I don't do Schutzhund. I've personally seen several desexed Schutzhund/protection-trained dogs placed in new homes in the last couple of years too, even though I'm only peripherally involved with those circles. It seems to me that a good working dog generally has value beyond their ability to breed. Now, sport dogs are a bit different, and IME again it is hard to make a universal statement about whether reproductive ability matters in their ability to find a new home--it seems to be hard to find a home for them regardless.

Personally, I don't think that people should be criticized for making a responsible choice about whether or not to spay/neuter, regardless of whether one personally agrees. Keeping an intact dog can be a lot more work than some people--even working homes--are comfortable with, and I've even seen provisions in homeowners' insurance and rental agreements banning intact pets. I'm beginning to look for a new dog myself, and reading my homeowners' policy, there is such a provision--we'll have to either see if we can get it removed or switch carriers if I choose to get a dog I want to keep intact, which may not be feasible for everyone.

The only time I'll complain about someone's choice regarding spay/neuter is if they choose to leave their dog intact, and then can't handle it responsibly--either by being unable to handle natural behavioral issues that may crop up, or by letting it have access to other intact dogs and having repeated "accidental" litters. Otherwise, I can't really get too worked up about it. JMO, of course.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think that there are too few Schutzhund people that are strictly doing it for the sport. Let's be serious, even if you don't want to be a breeder, you work a dog for years, trial the dog, pump thousands of dollars into the dog, sometimes its nice to know that at the end of the day you might breed said dog and recoup even a little bit of that investment...or get enough money to get another dog, or go to another trial, or just cover some other expense.

The Schutzhund clubs I've visited, do a lot of their own breedings. Breedings that end up going to club members for a price and are generally not advertised. These people aren't breeders, but they prove their dogs to the members around them, who then decide they want a pup from those dogs (its the same advice we give to most people that come on this forum and ask about a dog for Schutzhund).

So a female that is spayed...has no chance of making the person even a little bit of money back. And yes...you can tell me all you want that "its not about the money" but it usually is, and its nice to get a little something back from all that hard work.

By the way...did anyone read that article on Yahoo about the family suing the state of Texas for the sentimental value of their dog? It's gone all the way to the Texas Supreme Court and it will be a huge decision for many people. It would in theory make "mutts" with no breeding potential, more valuable than purebreds with breeding potential/amazing pedigrees. As of now you can collect for damage to property...dog is property, so you can collect how much that dog is worth in the open market (may be a lot depending on pedigree and training). But you can't collect on the sentimental value of the dog. If this lawsuit goes the way of the family...you'd want to devalue your dog so that there is no actual market value to the dog and in that case you can collect on the sentimental value or the "pain and suffering" value of something happening to your dog (possibly even at the vet's office).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I had posted my feelings, then realized that the inferences already made in this thread are enough for me to say that whether someone is selling or rehoming a dog and under what terms and for how much is really no one's business unless they are involved with the dog or the situation. Attempting to discuss it on a forum like this will probably not end well!


I didn't see any judgements or inferences in this thread. I see the reality of what does happen. In any sport, there are "throw aways", or people that view them as such. That does not mean everyone in the sport views the animals as such but it does happen often enough to cause issues. 

I don't think anyone can deny that there are people in dog sports and horse sports that view the animals as nothing but a title and if they can't do that have no value.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

edit: ^^^I won't argue with that post, though. There are definitely a great deal of people who see their animals as purely a tool or a means to an end.



Jax08 said:


> I think that happens in any sporting community. Look at the value of a champion gelding to that of a stallion and look at the instances where prize winning race gelded race horses go to slaughter while stallions go to retirement homes.


Actually, I have to disagree with this. You have a few top stallions in any breed who are extremely valuable, but for average stallions, geldings can have far higher value. It can be very difficult to place a stallion for any kind of money unless he is either proven as both a performance horse and a producer, or is from extremely desirable bloodlines (which, with the limited bloodlines in most purebreds, is rare--usually it happens when a particularly famous sire or dam only has a few foals).

With racehorses, most are stallions--males are only generally gelded if they have health concerns (the most famous one recently being Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, who was gelded because he was cryptorchid--and now that he is retired from racing, is still owned by the same people and working as a lead pony at the track, last I heard) or if their behavior is so severe that they can't be managed. Ability to reproduce has little to do with whether the horse will end up at the slaughterhouse--it's more to do with the value of the horse's potential offspring, which is based on how the horse performed at the track, along with a lot of luck. Ferdinand is the famous example of a horse who not only had a stellar racing career but also a long career at stud and still wound up at the slaughterhouse.

In general--and I say this as someone who has made a career of selling horses, including both stallions and geldings--it is much easier to sell a gelding than a stallion, and in general they have more value. It's only the very high-quality stallions that are more valuable than their gelding counterparts, and most people don't have the resources or the interest to compete at the highest level of the sport anyway. Even at the top, there's a big market for geldings, because of the intensive time and financial investments that a stallion requires.

Don't get me wrong, I love stallions, but overall I'd be a lot more confident about my ability to get a good home and a good price for a gelding than a stallion.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> I didn't see any judgements or inferences in this thread. I see the reality of what does happen. In any sport, there are "throw aways", or people that view them as such. That does not mean everyone in the sport views the animals as such but it does happen often enough to cause issues.


Where are "throw aways" coming from? I doubt that's what Sandra is getting at. Just because a dog is sold does *not* mean it's not a very nice dog, maybe even a top quality a dog. An acquaintance of mine sold a dog recently (dog was almost two, so this is a basically trained dog) and I would be surprised not to see it on the podium someday, but regardless of that the dog is a top dog in any venue of work or performance. A top German Shepherd dog. As far as taking away the value of a dog it seems that just selling a dog implies the dog has no value?

I don't see the reality, I know it, because I have sold a German Shepherd dog to a "sport home" and obtained a German Shepherd dog as an adult coming to me as the "sport home". I've lived both sides of the coin.

I know next to nothing about horses so all the analogies and anecdotes are going over my head.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It seems to me that you might be taking this thread a bit personally and I'm not going to get into an argument because what I'm saying is being twisted. Sandra is referring to the animals losing value because they can not reproduce, along with that are the people that only place value on animals if they are winning. 

I clearly stated that not all people in animal sports view animals that way. Nobody, not in any post on this thread, implied that selling a dog means the dog has no value. Not in any sentence at all was that implied.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> That priority is a fault in us and how we view living, breathing, animals as things with a "value" other than just the value of life.


This is what I don't get. Why is it wrong/faulty to assess the value of an animal? Why spay/neuter something you aren't going to own, just because?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> This is what I don't get. Why is it wrong/faulty to assess the value of an animal? Why spay/neuter something you aren't going to own, just because?


Are you referring to my post or just in general?

If mine, I already gave my top two reasons: Easier to rehome and to prevent irresponsible breeding. Those aren't "just because" reasons

Even breeding females of top breeders if sold to pet homes can require either the breeder or new owner to spay. That doesn't lessen the value in any way to the right home where they are to be retired


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But that's retired dogs. What about a young dog, not even physically mature (not yet breed surveyed)? I guess if I didn't trust the buyer I just wouldn't sell the dog, period. If the dog is young, breeding quality, then it should be up to the buyer (and/or any conditions that still apply from the original contract) whether or not the dog is altered as part of the sale. I wouldn't neuter a really nice dog just in case. That does as much damaged to the already diluted gene pool.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't have a problem with placing financial value on an animal (clearly, since as I said I do it routinely as part of my job), but I would agree with Jax's statement. I don't think a family mutt has less inherent value than a GSD with impeccable bloodlines and a Schutzhund title. That doesn't mean the GSD's owner is wrong to place a price on the value of their dog, but the mutt is still worth something beyond money, you know? It's two very different ways of assessing value.

I don't know if this is how Jax meant it, but I interpreted that statement to just mean that every animal deserves a good life, regardless of its price tag. The financial value of a dog is something that's kind of made up anyway--look at pit bulls bred for fighting, for example (I can think of many more in the horse industry--the entire US Arabian industry is a cautionary tale about this--but I'm trying to stay away from the horse analogies ).

As far as desexing a dog before rehoming it, I have a hard time criticizing people for that too. Back when I first got my GSD and was trying to rehome him (I found him as a stray and didn't want another dog at the time, but he grew on me after a couple of months ), I interviewed several people who seemed great at first but who I eventually discovered intended to breed him--despite the fact that, being a stray, he has no papers, and that GSD experts even disagree on whether he's actually even purebred! But he looks purebred for the most part (in person, most GSD people think he is, but his photographs incite more disagreement), and they didn't care. Some of these people were even involved in dog sports and like I said, seemed like perfect homes.

Now, Hector clearly wasn't a proven working or sporting dog at that point, but the experience would make me very leery about rehoming an intact animal unless I knew the person they were going to very well. I suspect some of it has to do with the amount of contacts the individual has in the dog world too...I personally didn't have any and still have relatively few, so it's harder for me to reliably vet potential homes. A more experienced and involved owner (someone who is actively involved with sporting, working or breed organizations, I mean) and knows a lot of people might feel a lot more confident rehoming an intact dog.

edit: I do agree with your above post, Liesje. I guess my whole point is that it is very situational and I don't really think anyone should be judged too harshly for their decision about this kind of thing, as long as they're being as responsible as they can. Like I said previously, the only time I really judge is when someone leaves a dog intact and doesn't manage it responsibly, or if they knowingly sold a dog to a puppy mill, something like that.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> But that's retired dogs. What about a young dog, not even physically mature (not yet breed surveyed)? I guess if I didn't trust the buyer I just wouldn't sell the dog, period. If the dog is young, breeding quality, then it should be up to the buyer (and/or any conditions that still apply from the original contract) whether or not the dog is altered as part of the sale. I wouldn't neuter a really nice dog just in case. That does as much damaged to the already diluted gene pool.


Oh I agree mostly but the percentage of truly breed worthy dogs is as slim as proper working homes. If every GSD was kept intact "just in case" we'd end up with a lot more oops litters and bad breedings which would be just as damaging to the gene pool would it not?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Shade said:


> Oh I agree mostly but the percentage of truly breed worthy dogs is as slim as proper working homes. If every GSD was kept intact "just in case" we'd end up with a lot more oops litters and bad breedings which would be just as damaging to the gene pool would it not?


Dunno, the gene pool is pretty crap already!!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not sure I really understand the intent of this thread...saying that it is tough to place a sport dog that is spayed in a home where they may want to breed is a pretty obvious satement isn't it?

As far as finding a sport home for a competition quality (sterilized) dog, one may have more luck with the flyball/agility community. I find that they would care a lot less about that, I know several people that have taken dogs (with the intent for high level agility/flyball competition) and the dogs had been spayed or neutered already. I'm not trying to bash one sport community vs the other, it just seems WAY more common to have spayed or neutered dogs competing in these venues.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Flyball too. Someone on my team will never stop commenting on my dog's nads, it's kind of gross/annoying, lol. I'm guessing it's far more opportunistic to have a flyball or agility dog altered (especially spayed) because we are usually competing at least once a month, even those of us who just do it recreationally and not for serious competition, whereas even those who have decades of SchH experience and have titled many dogs might only trial a few times a year. Some performance events will not even allow females in heat, whereas in SchH they will do quite a bit to accommodate them.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Lol, I get stuck calling all the agility dogs girls because they are all missing their nads! In schutzhund ALL of the boys were intact, at agility I would say maybe 10% are intact. As far as I know you can't compete in agility with a female in heat. That could really suck if your "top dog" came into season during regionals or nationals...


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Flyball, agility, nosework, herding trials, treiball...done all of those or gone with friends who competed in them to events, and IME the majority of dogs in all those sports with the possible exception of of herding trials are desexed. In the herding trials I've been to, it seems to be closer to 50/50 since a lot of working breeders use them to prove their breeding stock's ability.

The Schutzhund people I know tend to have a bit more of a prejudice against desexed dogs, and especially neutered males as there seems to be a common belief (at least among the people I know) that neutering removes a bit of the drive or intensity the dog might otherwise have. I'm not commenting on the veracity of that (I haven't found it to be true in the sports I do, but they're also very different from protection-type work), but it's definitely a belief I've seen.

I think Schutzhund also tends to have more purebred dogs in it, and more limited breeds participating. I know my local club has a few mutts and non-typical breeds, but for the most part it is GSDs, Mals, etc. even though it's open to anyone. I think that affects the overall attitude towards desexed dogs, as a mutt is a lot more likely to be neutered than a quality purebred. I also think that, because of the bite work which requires a much higher level of dedication to training and brings with it potential liability or "dangerous dog" issues, a higher percentage of Schutzhund handlers are the type who are willing to deal with the hassles of intact dogs, as opposed to other sports which attract a lot of those people as well, but also attract more casual owners who are just looking for something fun to do with their dogs.

Of course, that's a huge generalization and just based on my own experience, so feel free to call me out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Plus Schutzhund is a *breed* test, so it's probably more likely that there are dogs being trialed as a possible breeding assessment than using agility, flyball, etc as a breeding assessment for a GSD. Many breeders use the SV system here which means SchH title, since HGH is impossible unless you live on the east coast or send your dog off for training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can trust a new owner with your dog, intact or not, or you would not sell them the dog. 

But, circumstances change. In 12 months time that new owner might have lost his job, or had a crippling accident, or even died. It may not be up to him to say where the dogs should go. Yes, yes we should all have a will that clearly states what should happen to each of our critters, but things change, sometimes the person who had agreed to take a dog is now in no position to do so. 

Working lines are not immune to people who are going to use a dog foully in their quest to make money. If someone's requirement in taking a dog is that it is and remains intact, then they most likely want to breed the dog. That in and of itself isn't the end of the world, so long as you can carefully pick the people who take the dog. But, if its someone's heir that now needs to get rid of the dogs, and the only thing that person _knows _about the dogs is that they were bred, or were going to be used for breeding, they may look for whoever will give them a decent amount to take the dog. 

And then the dog can fall into the hands of people who will sell the puppies of a dog with accomplishments and a working line pedigree. By this site alone, I think we can agree that the working lines are popular. That means people will snatch up these dogs and some of the people doing the snatching will be people who should not own a living creature. 

By altering your dog before rehoming it, the only _value_ you remove is reproduction. This means that the foulest of owners will not EVER agree to own your dog. Those owners who have breeding as a part of the plan they have for the dogs that they prize highest, to pass on the genes, will also pass on the dog. 

I think you can look at in with that four square way: + + ; + - ; - + ; - -. 

++ If you keep the dog intact and it gets the best possible situation, is worked with and eventually responsibly bred and passes on its excellent genes to its progeny.


+ - If you alter the dog, and it gets into the best possible situation, is worked and cared for properly, turns out to be awesome, but it can never produce itself and pass on its genes.

- + If you alter the dog, and it gets into a negative situation, the chances are that the worst kind of owners will not want the dog as it is already altered, and the possibilities for neglect and abuse of the dog is limited to that dog alone. 

- - If you do not alter the dog, and it gets into the worst possible situation, it is kept by someone with dozens of dogs, in small pens, pumping out puppies.

Then you have to look at the likelihood of the dog being passed into other hands. Is the certainty of your dog not having the + + situation worth the risk of the dog landing in the - - situation. That is just a question that the original owner has to come to terms with.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Well, the only reason I was able to get my dog at all was because she had to have an emergency spay due to pyometra. If not for that she never would have been looking for a home, she would have been kept for breeding as she was planned for. So I guess I'm pretty glad that it worked out that way.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> There have been a couple of topics about re-homing working dogs lately and that the dogs generally stay within the community because they are of value and I'm not talking about monetary value but genetic value, working value. The dogs are valuable to somebody and that is why people in the world of Schutzhund generally have not a problem to sell their dogs and find them the perfect home within the community.
> 
> Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.


Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, this is my thought on this type of scenario. 

If the 'current community' rejects a good working dog because it has been spayed, why wouldn't said dog be offered (for what monetary value agreed on) to a newbie? Someone who has expressed interest? Someone known through the 'community' but hasn't gotten their feet wet yet? Someone who'd be thrilled to have a dog who has already gone through training and couldn't care less if the dog was intact or not. A dog that (with professional training) could help the newbie become a 'community member'.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, this is my thought on this type of scenario.
> 
> If the 'current community' rejects a good working dog because it has been spayed, why wouldn't said dog be offered (for what monetary value agreed on) to a newbie? Someone who has expressed interest? Someone known through the 'community' but hasn't gotten their feet wet yet? Someone who'd be thrilled to have a dog who has already gone through training and couldn't care less if the dog was intact or not. A dog that (with professional training) could help the newbie become a 'community member'.


It could be...but newbies without dogs are few and far in between. I'm not in Schutzhund, but I am part of a GSD club where we train for various venues. I didn't join this club until after I had my puppy, most people don't join these types of things before they have their first puppy. I know now that although I did end up with a solid dog, it would've been smarter to join this club (probably not though since they don't breed the type of dog I want now that I'm "in the know"), or it would've been good to go to a Schutzhund club and learn a bit there. Only problem is that most people aren't going to spend 5 hours every Sunday for a few months hanging out at a Schutzhund club so that they can get an idea of the kind of dog they want. So even if I was a newbie at a club...I would already have a dog and probably not be looking to adopt another one. Then...once I would learn the sport and understand what it takes, I'd still look towards a puppy from one of the lines rather than a full grown dog.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

But here we often tell people who don't know what kind of dog that they want, or where to find a nice pup close to them, to go and at least visit the nearest Schutzhund club, GSDC club, or sport club. That way they get a chance to meet many dogs from different backgrounds. How nice would it be for them to be offered a started dog to learn on? Don't we continually tell newbies not to count on their first dog being a breeding dog? that it is a teaching dog? 

Many breeders already have as many dogs as they can comforatbly care for, plus or minus a puppy here and there. Here in the US space can be a premium.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It could be...but newbies without dogs are few and far in between. I'm not in Schutzhund, but I am part of a GSD club where we train for various venues. I didn't join this club until after I had my puppy, most people don't join these types of things before they have their first puppy. I know now that although I did end up with a solid dog, it would've been smarter to join this club (probably not though since they don't breed the type of dog I want now that I'm "in the know"), or it would've been good to go to a Schutzhund club and learn a bit there. Only problem is that most people aren't going to spend 5 hours every Sunday for a few months hanging out at a Schutzhund club so that they can get an idea of the kind of dog they want. So even if I was a newbie at a club...I would already have a dog and probably not be looking to adopt another one. Then...once I would learn the sport and understand what it takes, I'd still look towards a puppy from one of the lines rather than a full grown dog.


I like Lilie's sentiment, but I have to agree with this for most serious sports, and would add that most people who are really into them enjoy bringing along a dog themselves, so there isn't a huge market for a pre-trained dog. I know every dog sport/work I've gotten into, it's because I had a dog with too much energy or drive to let sit around and so I had to find something else to do with them. I wound up loving some of it, could take or leave other stuff, but it all happened because I already had a dog, and I find that is true for most people. However, it isn't true for all people, and I have met people who do fit Lilie's description.

I will say, though, that I did see two older, non-breeding Schutzhund dogs (not sure if they were spayed/neutered, but I know they weren't considered breeding candidates for whatever reason, both purebred GSDs) placed into new homes in the last year. They were sold to relative newbies who weren't into dog sports for their own sake, but were looking for a dog to make them feel more comfortable in their own homes and were willing to do a reasonable amount of training to maintain the dog's skills. I wouldn't call those people "Schutzhund people" but from what I've heard, it's working out well. So that's a potential other avenue for non-breeding dogs, although admittedly it is a limited one and one that would require a lot of caution to make sure they're really prepared for taking on a working dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> This is what I don't get. Why is it wrong/faulty to assess the value of an animal? Why spay/neuter something you aren't going to own, just because?


That is what I don't get either. 




> Flyball, agility, nosework, herding trials, treiball...done all of those or gone with friends who competed in them to events, and IME the majority of dogs in all those sports with the possible exception of of herding trials are desexed. In the herding trials I've been to, it seems to be closer to 50/50 since a lot of working breeders use them to prove their breeding stock's ability.


Exactly, these are recreational sports but once you cross over to Schutzhund it's a complete different ball game. 




> Flyball too. Someone on my team will never stop commenting on my dog's nads, it's kind of gross/annoying, lol. I'm guessing it's far more opportunistic to have a flyball or agility dog altered (especially spayed) because we are usually competing at least once a month, even those of us who just do it recreationally and not for serious competition, whereas even those who have decades of SchH experience and have titled many dogs might only trial a few times a year. Some performance events will not even allow females in heat, whereas in SchH they will do quite a bit to accommodate them.


I think there is a different culture in SchH than in any other sport, except for Herding, maybe.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> I think there is a different culture in SchH than in any other sport, except for Herding, maybe.


Yeah I have a flyball team mate who does herding trials (with a smooth coated BC) and her dog is intact. She has to miss a few practices for flyball because I don't think the training facility allows it. Funny, the first time we put her on a practice team without her, he ran down the lane and when he passed her he stopped cold, sniffed, gave her a lick on the muzzle, and kept going down the lane. I think he was very pleased to finally have an intact "girlfriend"!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> She has to miss a few practices for flyball because I don't think the training facility allows it.


Stuff like that makes me so mad. Why wouldn't they allow an intact dog at the training facility? What's the point? Seriously...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mess? They allow intact dogs, just not ones in standing heat. She practices with us otherwise. Or maybe it's a team rule because we use our own mats, not sure I've never had an intact female.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I didn't read the whole thread -but for me a dog doesn't loose its valued because its been spayed or nuetered what ever working ability the dog has is still there-no they can't be bred-but I have rescued a dog and would never breed her-if I bought an adult dog -maybe-and if I was re-homing my dog the most important thing to me would be that they were in a home that they were loved and cared for-I would return her to the breeder-it wouldn't involve money in any way-thats just my opinion


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I know I am going to "walk around" the situation a bit but hope that those who know will understand my post a bit better and maybe get the point I am trying to make and help others make it clear... lol.

In regards to my own experience and my own dog.... a situation occurred where I had to spay my bitch who was being sought after by a few respected people in the sport/GSD world. 

I had several people meet her, watch her on and off the field and who inquired about her lines and were keeping tabs on her.

I had one VERY respected person in the SchH community want to buy her from my breeder. I always laugh because this person was a showline person and although extremely knowledgeable in the GSD "world" and very good with genetics and such, he was not a fan of the working lines, so when he met my crazy dog and really grew fond of her (for the purpose of breeding) I had to laugh. 

A situation occurred where I had the choice to either give Zefra back to my breeder or spay her, and so I spayed her. A selfish decision maybe, but I couldn't part with her - especially after what transpired elsewhere. 

When I spoke to a few people who had showed interested in Zefra (they were pushing me to train and title her - but work got in the way) they were quite upset with me that I spayed her. Once person said, "what a loss" in regards to her not being able to be bred. 

A few of them had asked if I was getting another dog to work - like her value had all of a sudden disappeared because she was now spayed. A few made comments like, "why would you continue to work her? what's the point?". 

To me, working my dog, showing what this dog/bloodline/etc. can do - even if my dog can't reproduce is still important, so I continue to work with her and will title her this coming year. 

I would like to learn about breeding (not really breed a female myself) so this to me was the perfect set-up, but the dog (Zefra) had value to ME. 

I know that when Zefra was intact, I had a few serious inquiries into her (wanting to purchase her) from people in the community, one was for work and the other for sport but once she was spayed both those inquires disappeared... not that I would ever sell her, but people went from seeing her as a valued working dog to just a pet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.

Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I don't think anyone can deny that there are people in dog sports and horse sports that view the animals as nothing but a title and if they can't do that have no value.


See. As a dog owner, yes, a "pet owner", I'd never sell my dog to someone who saw it only as $$.
And if it washes out somehow, it's worthless.
Perhaps if you yourself see dogs as $$ and worthless if altered, then you feel that way too, but I'll never see my dogs that way.

I've made a point of adopting dogs who might "work" (hunting dogs, for instance) to people who merely want a pet, for fear if they failed at their intended duty (sometimes though the owner's fault, not the dog's) they'd boot the dog out the door.
Dogs are more than equipment, they are more than reproductive tracts.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.
> 
> Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.


Maybe because on the shorter life span? Not as sought after by the general community/world?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Maybe, Elisabeth. I think there might be a lot of money involved in the wins also. More prestige? And it doesn't take much to tank the value of a horse either, regardless of sex or reproductive capabilities.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.
> 
> Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.


No, the same IS true. A BSP winner owned and trained by one of the most sought after SchH trainers/competitors has never been bred (he's monorchid or cryptorchid). I think the same is true of one of our national podium dogs. At the very top, the value is placed on* winning* (and is that any better or worse?...) Same reason you see VA dogs with all sorts of issues. The value is not in reproduction but winning, winning, winning.

But for many people in Schutzhund, it being a *breed* test, the dogs are kept intact until their breedworthiness is determined.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, in GSDs, at the very top (I'm talking top WUSV, BSP, BSZS...) the value is in the prestige. For example, some VA dogs have been sold for exorbitant prices, like a quarter of a million dollars. Now, I could take a bitch and breed to the top VA dogs in Germany for less than $1500. These dogs' value is not in stud fees or breeding, it just doesn't work that way in GSDs. Stud fees are CHEAP (some even free!) and the SV does limit how often the dogs can register breedings. Same thing for a top working line dog. The owner would *never* recoup in stud fees what they have put into the dog, training, traveling and competing at that level. Often when the top show lines are sold it's to wealthy people that simply think it's cool to blow two hundred grand on a dog to keep as a companion.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

But Lies - being a bit of a an annoying fly today sorry.. lol - do you really think the majority of people training in schH see it as a breed test anymore?

I mean, yes, obviously there are still people who do (I believe it is, but I also see the value in working your non-breeding dog in the venue) but I personally see more who don't necessarily see it as a breed test and more of a sporting event to enjoy with their dogs... at least around here.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, and I think your post illustrates that. A lot of people see it only as a means to an end...dogs must be titled and surveyed for breeding so that is why they are doing it. Maybe not the majority of people participating, but the type of people that will seek out dogs to buy in the sport community and make offers. I've done the same, I've seen some nice dogs that would really fit into a breeding program and had I decided to go in that direction I would have made similar offers.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> The value is not in reproduction but winning, winning, winning.


But in a way, this is worse. What if the dog washes out? Or the owner isn't able to continue for whatever reason? How many dogs make it to the top echelon?? 
And if they don't...?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> But in a way, this is worse. What if the dog washes out? Or the owner isn't able to continue for whatever reason? How many dogs make it to the top echelon??
> And if they don't...?


They get sold to novice or spayed/neutered and sold as pets. A lot of people would give their right arm to buy a wash out dog from one of the top trainers and competitors (not me, but people would). Some of these guys have almost cult-like followings. Just because a dog can't win the BSP doesn't mean it couldn't win a regional or even national in the USA, and the top winners usually have *very* specific dogs they want to fit into very specific training programs.

A friend of mine sold a washout dog and if I had space I would have bought him (and *not* washed him out!). Dogs don't always wash out because they can't do the sport, it's usually because they aren't exactly what that handler was looking for. The type of dogs my friend buys and trains I can't live with. I LOVE the dogs that drive her nuts. In fact in the time I've know her she has sold two dogs I would have gladly owned and trained.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

To me it depends on the purpose and intent of the dog when I purchased or adopted the dog. I have pets and I have dogs for show/sport. The pets are altered, mixes, rescues etc. The dogs for sport/show need to be intact (possibility of breeding) and need to be able to perform (able to do the "job" they were obtained for) - this is why I got them in the first place. If a sport/show dog washes out for some reason, I will have to rehome the dog to a pet family. I cannot keep every dog - simply not feasible from a space/time/money standpoint. Unfortunately if you do it right and put the dog through the ringer when doing show/sport, many dogs will wash out. Hip/elbows don't work out, allergies, temperament not right for sport, conformation ends up not working out etc. It's just how it goes many times. 

These dogs DO need a good loving home and a place where they are cherished. This is NOT a negative or a heartless thing to do. *MOST* honorable breeders will do this. Those that don't work out for the breeding/show/sport program will be rehomed to families that consider them the center of their lives and treat the dog like royalty. The person doing breeding/show/sport CANNOT keep every dog and it is a DISSERVICE to keep every dog because one CANNOT support/care for each dog like it deserves when one has many dogs. 

I think it is far more selfish to obsessively hoard and keep every dog because one cannot bear to part with those that don't work out. I've seen kennels with 30+ dogs with only a few actively being worked/bred and one or two people managing the work load. Dogs don't get personal attention, they are left unworked, many times in kennels or pens for the majority of their time, and have little one on one time. They don't get to go in houses, they don't get to have a family, they don't get holiday treats, and they don't get fun outings. They just sit around day in and out in kennels/pens. Yes, they are fed and watered, pens are cleaned, and they are provided adequate care, but they exist only - these dogs are not the light of anyone's life. This is NOT an optimal life. If a dog is not actively worked/showed by a competitor or breeder, it should be rehomed to where it can be loved and cherished. 

Personally, I am not looking for any more pets. I have 4 "pets" at the moment and I'm at my absolute limit for pets. I'll probably be swayed into taking another sad case...but that's another story!  I am actively looking for nice dogs for sport/show/breed candidates at all times. If the dog is desexed, I stop looking because that dog doesn't suit MY purposes, but could be a great dog for someone else. This is not to say the dog has no value, but its value is NO longer as high as it possibly could have been - that's just the practical nature of it. 

Don't make value judgements on others based on your own mindset - it does a disservice to all involved. We all apprach dogs in different ways. Some for pets, some for work, some for show, some for breeding. To get irate over the fact that others don't view all dogs like you do is amusing to me...we all care and love our dogs, but we have different purposes for dogs. As long as in the end, the dog is happy and in a place where it can be celebrated for its merits is the best situation we can hope for. For some dogs, their job is to be excellent family pets. For others, it is to be breed worthy candidates that can work, show, do service, produce the next generation etc. Just because each dog has a different purpose does not mean one dog is better than another - they are suited for different purposes and we must be realistic about this fact.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am not a "cult follower" or any of the sort - but if I had the lifestyle where I could purchase an older "washed out" dog to learn with, to use for trialing, etc. and to gain some much needed experience and know-how, I probably would do it. 

I was actually looking at older dogs who were already titled in the venues I like to work my dogs. I had planned to trial with these dogs to gain some experience and then take my own dogs with whom I trained myself and title them after.

My dogs ( aka. Stark) would not do well with a adult dog coming into the house. He is great with pups and other dogs but tends to show avoidance (stress) to me if I bring an older mature dog into the house now (one he doesn't know well). So, puppies it is for me even though I would prefer an older dog at this point in my life.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

qbchottu said:


> Don't make value judgements on others based on your own mindset - it does a disservice to all involved. We all apprach dogs in different ways.


Exactly. I mean, I wouldn't sell Nikon for ten million dollars, but I'm sure there are people who would look at him and go "ew a black and red dog" and not be *paid* to own him. The SchH community is small and tight. If someone is screwing other people over and/or mistreating dogs, word gets out (I'm sure many of you can insert a certain name here).


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Exactly. The dog world is too small for word to not get around. We all know the knuckleheads that use the cattle prod for corrections or leave dogs in filthy conditions. The people I train with LOVE their dogs. It's the cutest thing in the world when a big, bad decoy is on the ground snuggling with his dog. We love our dogs. We do NOT view them as being disposable or "means to an end". We love love LOVE our dogs - spend countless hours, effort, money, time on them. We all know the morons and we know the ones that do it right. Unfortunately bad things happen and will continue to happen, but don't peg all of us into that unfair stereotype. I am fiercely protective over my dogs and aggressively make sure EACH gets the best possible chance in life. The majority love their dogs and do what is best for the dogs. 

Say for example you have a dog that as it matures grows to hate the sport or work, is it fair to keep the dog around just because? Nah, it's FAR kinder to home the dog where it is cherished and loved to the max. It always breaks my heart when I give a dog away - gave away my sweet Rottie girl a week ago and I never thought I could do that. But now when her family sends me pictures of her watching over the kids or snoozing on the bed with dad - that is MORE than worth it. When both man and dog win out in the end, what more could you ask for?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where in this thread, anywhere, did anyone make judgements? The OP made a general statement. I made a general statement based on what I've seen in sports involving animals. Nobody here made any judgements. I know I certainly do not feel that animals are only worth something based on titles or reproductive abilities. I have 3 spayed female dogs, 1 neutered male cat and a gelding. The only one with any breeding worth mentioning is the gelding who I paid $500 and will never leave my house because he's been through enough. Good breeding doesn't equal good treatment. I'm sure the breeders would be appalled at the condition he was in.

I think to much is being read into the original post and some things are being taken rather personally.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm probably confusing this thread with the other ones when I made my reply, but rest assured, I honestly don't care enough to take anything said here personally 

I am simply offering my input and reasoning - I am speaking globally on the view that this forum holds on rehoming. I don't look at usernames half the time so I don't know who to point you to, but you can agree that there is a general sentiment about subjects such as washing out, rehoming as pets and value of desexed animals. I am speaking to that - again, don't care to take it personally. Just exchanging thoughts is all!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Oops ... misread something ... no comment.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

"Flyball, agility, nosework, herding trials, treiball...done all of those or gone with friends who competed in them to events, and IME the majority of dogs in all those sports with the possible exception of of herding trials are desexed. In the herding trials I've been to, it seems to be closer to 50/50 since a lot of working breeders use them to prove their breeding stock's ability."



Mrs.K said:


> Exactly, these are recreational sports but once you cross over to Schutzhund it's a complete different ball game.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your right, whole 'nother ball game. I easily commit twice the amount of time, training and conditioning my dogs for agility than I did for schutzhund. I also easily spend as much money in one month doing agility as the average schutzhund competitor spends in an entire year. Schutzhund is very far from the only sport that takes a great deal of time, commitment and money. I get really sick of hearing that people make such a huge commitment doing schutzhund that there should be something in return. To be "competitive" in ANY sport takes a great deal of time and commitment, it is not something special to THAT sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ Very true, I spend more time on flyball training. Though when I'm actually scheduled to trial for SchH then I'm working my butt off for 2-3 weeks before a trial (yeah I'm that kind of person!).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

To be fair, it is a huge difference if you trial on a regional or a national or even an international level. 
It takes a lot of time to do all three phases and it always depends on what kind of level you want to compete on.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

True, but I do agree with her that doing flyball or agility even at a novice level requires much more time and a more deliberately conditioned dog than doing club level SchH, even with my show line dog that hasn't been super easy to title in SchH. For flyball we compete once a month and that's just as people who have fun (we aren't real competitive and don't host tournaments) but I haven't done a SchH title (not counting BH and ADs) in a year.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, I don't know about Agility or Flyball. All I know is that SchH is time consuming as it is with three disciplines and I'm not going to engage into "My sport takes more commitment than yours." 

If you want to do it right, you do it right and it will take time and money, period and just because 600 dollars of club fee is nothing for you (you in general) doesn't mean it can't hurt me. 

Not everyone earns the kind of money that will let you comfortably live out your hobby and people need to know what they get themselves into before they commit to a sport.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The people that I have met that do Schutzhund tend to breed a bit more than some others. I do think it has a lot to do with the "breed test" portion of it all. There are some, but I believe they are the minority, that just do the sport for fun. The majority of others either have plans on breeding or if they don't yet, once the dog develops into something worth breeding they would like the opportunity to do so. Many people do like to pass on the genes of a successful dog and also at the same time have a puppy that is a lot like what they just trained before. Others of course will try something new.

My view on the novice handlers (I consider myself a novice AKC obedience person) is that we have pets first, and sport dogs second. Many of us still want to deal with puppies, want to train from the beginning, and especially if this is our first dog to do a sport with, you won't convince me that its better to learn with a trained dog. I want to do the training myself, I don't want it to be done for me, I want to feel that I accomplished something. So that's why I believe "novice" homes are so far an between.

So this is why I believe it makes such a large difference in Schutzhund when you're talking about washed out dogs. At the end of the day...people like to have the possibility, however slim, of breeding a good dog.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't think it's fair to characterize Schutzhund people as more serious about their sport than others. For most SchH people I know, it's still very much a recreational sport, although I agree it also is still seen as a breed test to a large degree as well. Actually, I know more serious working herding folks (as in, actually make at least part of their living raising livestock and use their dogs on the farm) than SchH folks. 

I do agree, though, that SchH attracts more people with a different mentality. I really think, though, that it's largely because of the bite work and the potential risks that poses. Most of us on this board know that a dog trained in bite work is not going to be a risk to most people, but I don't think that's common knowledge. It also poses challenges when it comes to management and liability, because of insurance regulations and such. And it does have the potential to pose some management problems in general, especially early in the training--I was nearly bitten by a dog in SchH training because I was wearing camouflage BDUs which was also what the targets (or whatever they're called) wore over their padding at his training group.

So I think that SchH people are a lot more likely to be willing to manage the dog 24/7 because they go into it knowing that a dog trained in bitework needs 24/7 management anyway just due to liability issues on the off chance the dog bites someone. It's not about how much time you devote to training or how much money you spend or how committed you are, it's an expectation of how you want to manage the dog in the off hours when you're not actually training for the sport, if that makes sense.

Warning: if you don't care about the horse industry as compared to dog sports, skip the rest of this post. 



Jax08 said:


> Thank you, Elisabeth. I believe your story was exactly the point of the OP.
> 
> Here is what I don't understand. When showing horses, the geldings still have high monetary value if they are winning. Not as much as a champion stallion but they are out there proving the lines they came from. Maybe because there is so much money involved in general? I don't know enough about that part, just that the values remain high for winners. Now, why is it that in the dog world, the same is not true? The value is placed on the reproductive abilities.


I think that the horse industry is very different from dog sports. In some ways they're similar, but in others you're comparing apples to oranges.

I think the biggest thing in the value of geldings vs. stallions when compared to dogs, is that most people want to be able to do something with their horses, and stallions have the potential to be very dangerous. They do require greater finesse to handle well (stallions are more likely than mares or geldings to react aggressively to rough handling, IME, and you have to be constantly aware of your surroundings with them). Like intact dogs they're more likely to challenge their handlers, but they can accidentally kill you when they're just posturing to scare you off. They're also more unpredictable in a show environment (from experience, I can tell you that it's not real fun to be in a group class on a young stallion when there's a mare in heat in the ring!) and again, while that is an issue with young dogs too, your stallion being unpredictable is much more likely to result in serious injury or death. It can also be hard to find a boarding stable that will take a stallion in (which isn't an issue with dogs since most trainers are prepared to take intact dogs and many owners keep their dogs at home), and if you do you will likely be paying extra for it, possibly a great deal extra. So for the average owner, having a gelding makes a lot more sense, even if they have him in professional training.

I also think that the horse breeding is a little more of an industry than most dog breeding is. Having a champion stallion isn't going to make you a profit, unless you have one of those outliers who has a $million+ stud fee and is in high demand (and even them, I'd like to see the books...I bet the profit isn't as big as the stud fee implies). I know when I trained at a breeding farm with a famous stallion, we lost money on him even though we had no trouble getting bookings and his stud fee was rather high. It costs so much to promote him, show him, keep him, etc. that you just can't recoup it. Instead, you make the money off of him by selling his offspring by your own mares, which I think is the same for dog breeding, but most successful breeding operations also use his success for attracting clients for other services like boarding, training and showing in order to make a profit. So for the average non-pro owner who doesn't want to run a major farm, you're just pouring a lot of money down the hole for a horse you may not even feel comfortable riding--and as expensive as dogs are, horses are significantly more expensive. It happens, but for the most part it's unrealistic for a skilled amateur owner to promote and show their own super-valuable stallion, even during the early training. Most top stallions I know of that are owned by amateurs are in year-round training with top trainers, which costs a ton of money. Remember, having a super-valuable stallion isn't just about winning, it's about promoting him to mare owners and making him famous. OTOH, a nice gelding is a lot more manageable for that skilled amateur, and there are many examples of amateur owners taking their geldings or mares to the top levels of the sport. So overall, there just isn't a very big market for that super-expensive stallion, but there's a large market for a winning gelding.

I also think there's more of a glut of nice unwanted purebred horses than there are dogs (or at least dogs from quality breeders--obviously we have a problem with puppy-milled and mixed breed dogs in the US). As a result, a stallion's fame is largely tied to the fame and prestige of his owner, trainer and/or breeder, unless his accomplishments are truly exceptional (like if you have a racehorse who wins the Triple Crown, it doesn't matter if anyone's ever heard of any of the people involved, he'll still be valuable). This further reduces the market for stallions, without reducing the number of people who want to show horses.

I will note that last paragraph doesn't apply to rare breeds. I have some experience with 2 valued but rare (in the US anyway) breeds and for them, any breeding-quality horse with the ability to reproduce is automatically more valuable than a gelding of similar quality. But with rare breeds, while they are usually shown to increase their popularity and value, the bloodlines alone are what is valued. With more popular breeds (Quarterhorses, Arabians, Thoroughbreds), virtually all of the desirable bloodlines are common enough that having certain horses in their pedigree doesn't automatically add value except in very unusual cases (for example, at my farm we had a filly who was one of only 3 daughters of a very famous and in-demand deceased stallion who threw mostly colts, and because of that we sold her for an incredible sum before she'd even been shown in halter as a yearling).

So I think you combine those factors with a few others and you wind up having a lot more of a market for geldings. Really, I think the unpredictability of stallions and perception of them being dangerous is the biggest factor though. A more difficult dog is one thing (as long as he's not going to eat your face off), but a difficult horse can kill you without even meaning to.

Sorry if this is boring or off-topic, but I think it's interesting to compare the horse world with the dog world.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You know...maybe it has to do with that huge commitment. Think about it, you put in hours and hours of work into getting your dog some pretty serious training. I'm not saying flyball or agility is any less...I do obedience, rally, and agility now, but Schutzhund is so much cooler (mostly due to the protection) so by the end of it, you do want to have the chance to breed. Especially if the dog turns out to be really really good.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good lines produce good dogs. Maybe not every dog, but on the whole, good dogs. But great dogs, they are rare and a lot of people feel they should be bred. They will probably produce good dogs, but they _might _produce a great dog. I can understand how someone who is following a dog because they like that dog, or who is very familiar with whatever dog-sport might be totally disappointed when they hear that a dog has been altered. 

I think from a breeding perspective, we want to produce great dogs and it doesn't really matter what lines we are talking about. We are matching up the best of the best to the best dog for her in hopes of creating some very exceptional pups. When your think is going to take 1-2 years to determine whether this dog is everything you hope for, there is just no way you can keep every hopeful. So you place them in homes that you feel confident will do everything to give that pup its best shot at reaching its potential. 

I really don't think that continuing to trial after a dog is altered proves the lines. It does, but since littermates are not identical, breeding a littermate of a truly awesome dog doesn't give you the same chances of reproducing the animal that was altered. In fact it can't, and neither can breeding the truly awesome dog, but that is the dog that we would want to breed. 

I am guessing that people will sometimes sell these dogs with a pick of litter if ever the dog is bred clause built in.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

What about dogs that are sold on limited registration or a spay/neuter clause? I'm curious to know how many dogs that have done 'great things' in the world of SchH are altered. Are altered dogs kept from going 'as far as they can' in the sport? Being that the great majority of dogs that compete in sport must have *some* issue which may not make them the best of the best for breeding... is this really something to worry about? Protecting your dog (that you're re-homing) from procreation abuse isn't 'ruining' anything, IMO. Of course, if you know someone personally within those circles who'd be willing to be responsible with the dog, that may alleviate some fears. Of course, there's no saying that the dog wouldn't be passed along to someone with a different mindset. I do like the idea of these dogs being used for beginners in the sport world. Especially after the thread about a BYB dog not being everything the person wanted. Instead of getting another young pup, why not have a small amount of dogs in the club that could be handed over to those who are just starting out?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Also, in GSDs, at the very top (I'm talking top WUSV, BSP, BSZS...) the value is in the prestige. For example, some VA dogs have been sold for exorbitant prices, like a quarter of a million dollars. Now, I could take a bitch and breed to the top VA dogs in Germany for less than $1500. These dogs' value is not in stud fees or breeding, it just doesn't work that way in GSDs. Stud fees are CHEAP (some even free!) and the SV does limit how often the dogs can register breedings. Same thing for a top working line dog. The owner would *never* recoup in stud fees what they have put into the dog, training, traveling and competing at that level. Often when the top show lines are sold it's to wealthy people that simply think it's cool to blow two hundred grand on a dog to keep as a companion.


Not only that. The value lies in being able to sell the dog.

China and America pays top-dollars and insane amounts of money for dogs like that but once the dog is spayed, that value is gone. You won't make money out of the stud fee's BUT there is something people forget. It's your line, your kennel that becomes valuable. 

If your famous dog, produces on top of that, your kennel will become well known and famous and that is where the true value lies. 


All those kennels you are talking about today, started out like that. If you can manage to send your dogs to the regional and nationals on a constant basis and all of them have one thing in common which is your champion dog, that's how you create the legends from tomorrow. And that is the true value of the dog.

Everyone wants a champion, but if your champion produces champions on top, that's the Jackpot!

My father always says* "In ten years people won't remember the handler or helper but they always remember the dog!"*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jag said:


> What about dogs that are sold on limited registration or a spay/neuter clause? I'm curious to know how many dogs that have done 'great things' in the world of SchH are altered. Are altered dogs kept from going 'as far as they can' in the sport? Being that the great majority of dogs that compete in sport must have *some* issue which may not make them the best of the best for breeding... is this really something to worry about? Protecting your dog (that you're re-homing) from procreation abuse isn't 'ruining' anything, IMO. Of course, if you know someone personally within those circles who'd be willing to be responsible with the dog, that may alleviate some fears. Of course, there's no saying that the dog wouldn't be passed along to someone with a different mindset. I do like the idea of these dogs being used for beginners in the sport world. Especially after the thread about a BYB dog not being everything the person wanted. Instead of getting another young pup, why not have a small amount of dogs in the club that could be handed over to those who are just starting out?



Honestly, I think the whole argument about breeding and value as a breeding dog is kind of a red herring here. Most of the dogs being sold are young, so what it boils down to is that in the SchH community, you are far more likely to find folks who believe in waiting until an animal is mature to alter it than early spay/neuter. That goes for wash outs, pets, dogs that are for club level competition and not breeding, or national champions. Most people in this community are not going to do elective surgeries and alter their dogs just in case. Green dogs and started dogs being sold under age 3 are likely to be intact simply because of their age and not being able to determine whether they are breeding quality and there being no reason to spay/neuter them. If someone is a beginner and has no interest in breeding or breed survey-ing the dog they can certainly go ahead and spay/neuter their new dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I'm not saying flyball or agility is any less...I do obedience, rally, and agility now, but Schutzhund is so much cooler (mostly due to the protection) so by the end of it, you do want to have the chance to breed. Especially if the dog turns out to be really really good.


Have you _met_ flyball people?? 
Those are some, um, interesting people. Where we eschew backyard breeding, they advocate mixing breeds such as border collies with pit bulls (oops, Am Staffs) to create "the ultimate flyball dog". That's just one of the breeds they tinker with. 
Maybe Sch people do it too, heck, maybe all sports do...but I still feel it's not responsible to do it. 
A few yrs. go we adopted a dog we only later found out was used for Sch, he was a GSD x Dutch. Very unstable dog, not necessarily result of mixing the breeds but the guy was a nutjob  The dogs he used had sketchy and unstable temperaments. 
So yeah, I guess there's that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why do you take the WORST examples of people/dogs and use them to label "SchH people" or "flyball people"? Do you actually DO Schutzhund? Because it sounds like you don't so I'll tell you something....there are a lot of people breeding really crappy dogs and doing those mixes (like Dutch/GSD, Mal/GSD, etc) and say they "do SchH" and are in this club or that club and they really aren't. In fact, most of them get tossed out of good clubs because they are weird people that breed at random and get really crappy results. The first club I started had two couples like this, they came a few times, their dogs were frighteningly weak nerved (one dog actually defecated on itself during an evaluation), and just like that they are telling people they are in our club and titling their dogs in Schutzhund. Um, no that's not how it works. Both these couples were not allowed to join despite what they might advertise on their websites. "Used for SchH" and actually an active member of a club belonging to a SchH organization are not the same thing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If you're speaking to me, it was a general consensus (in flyball) that inter-breed breeding was fine, that is, the end justified the means. Yes I got the impression they were, overall, like that. 
As for the "sch" guy who bred that dog, he was, or had, started his own club :shrug:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Why do you take the WORST examples of people/dogs and use them to label "SchH people" or "flyball people"? Do you actually DO Schutzhund? Because it sounds like you don't so I'll tell you something....there are a lot of people breeding really crappy dogs and doing those mixes (like Dutch/GSD, Mal/GSD, etc) and say they "do SchH" and are in this club or that club and they really aren't. In fact, most of them get tossed out of good clubs because they are weird people that breed at random and get really crappy results. The first club I started had two couples like this, they came a few times, their dogs were frighteningly weak nerved (one dog actually defecated on itself during an evaluation), and just like that they are telling people they are in our club and titling their dogs in Schutzhund. Um, no that's not how it works. Both these couples were not allowed to join despite what they might advertise on their websites. "Used for SchH" and actually an active member of a club belonging to a SchH organization are not the same thing.


I actually wasn't thinking about those people at all...most of the SchH people I've met care a lot about ONE breed (usually GSD). I know there are some that mix, but I was referring to the crowd that does use it as a "breed test." I feel like most of the people doing something that time restrictive really fall in love with their dog and if it is of breeding quality they will try to breed it. And I've met the ones that are definitely responsible about it and only do it when their dog is proven. Those are the ones I'm talking about.

As for the fly-ball people...I've met a few that think their dogs are the greatest things since sliced bread and that no other sport out there compares to fly-ball. I've never met anyone that actually breeds for it, but I can see how people would. Not really sure what the "best breed" for fly ball is (like Borders have become for agility), but I'm sure there are people out there mixing those dogs in order to get the ultimate competitor. I personally don't even get the appeal of the sport so I won't discuss how I feel about it, but I understand that any time you invest countless hours into a dog, the dog succeeds, its just human nature to want to produce more like it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> As for the "sch" guy who bred that dog, he was, or had, started his own club :shrug:


And he's breeding crosses and adopting them out to people? I wonder how well that's going for him....

It's like people that say they have a "police dog". If I had a dime for every one of those I'd be rich! And we'd have more supposed "police dogs" than regular GSDs! Like I said earlier, the SchH community is relatively small, but just because someone says they are part of it does not mean that they can actually produce scorebooks for their dogs... I know someone who started his own club and has never titled a dog in SchH, not even a BH, and is breeding and selling "Schutzhund" dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh he went to prison for raping his (male) employee. We never found out about any of it until a few months after we adopted that dog, or we'd never have done it. Full disclosure was _not_ made 
That is, the reason for rescue stepping in for the dogs was the dude was in prison. We only found out when we scanned him and learned who purchased the chip.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, so, likely NOT someone that's really on the up-and-up as far as Schutzhund goes. Like martemchik said SchH people are really into their breed. No one breeds mixes FOR SchH. Some people do it with a mix but that's different. It's mostly GSDs, since it's a GSD breed test. Some Mali people think they can do better and sometimes they do


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Oh he went to prison for raping his (male) employee. We never found out about any of it until a few months after we adopted that dog, or we'd never have done it. Full disclosure was _not_ made
> That is, the reason for rescue stepping in for the dogs was the dude was in prison. We only found out when we scanned him and learned who purchased the chip.


And you use this guy as an example of "SchH people". I think that's what irks Lies (but I am not her, and can't speak for her) and others. crappy people exist in all avenues of life, not just in the schutzhund world.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well my point was, I knew flyball people did, but I don't know of incidents other than the breeder of that dog, he was attempting to "create" a new breed. It does seem that folks who do that would use the excuse "all purebreds were mixed at some point".

Did anyone see me use THAT as an example?? No, only when Lies asked, and if you re-read my ORIGINAL post on that you'd see I said "heck, Sch people may do it", but I didn't say "this is the be -all and end-all of Sch people/trainers". Sheesh. Some of you can't wait to take offense at _anything _I say! 

My *very* simple statement on Sch was *"heck maybe Sch people do it too"*, because flyball people seem to have no issue with it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Those are some, um, interesting people. Where we eschew backyard breeding, they advocate mixing breeds such as border collies with pit bulls (oops, Am Staffs) to create "the ultimate flyball dog". That's just one of the breeds they tinker with.
> *Maybe Sch people do it too, heck, maybe all sports do *...but I still feel it's not responsible to do it.
> A few yrs. go we adopted a dog we only later found out was used for Sch, he was a GSD x Dutch. Very unstable dog, not necessarily result of mixing the breeds but the guy was a nutjob The dogs he used had sketchy and unstable temperaments.


And I gave but one example! 
Now I'm not that stupid to think everyone does idiotic things like that, but perhaps some on the fringe think it's okay or preferable to try to create "the ultimate" dog.

Like...a shortcut to working with one breed to create excellence.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The only legitimate working dog mix I know of is the X-Mechelaar.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> Well my point was, I knew flyball people did, but I don't know of incidents other than the breeder of that dog, he was attempting to "create" a new breed. It does seem that folks who do that would use the excuse "all purebreds were mixed at some point".
> 
> Did anyone see me use THAT as an example?? No, only when Lies asked, and if you re-read my ORIGINAL post on that you'd see I said "heck, Sch people may do it", but I didn't say "this is the be -all and end-all of Sch people/trainers". Sheesh. Some of you can't wait to take offense at _anything _I say!
> 
> My *very* simple statement on Sch was *"heck maybe Sch people do it too"*, because flyball people seem to have no issue with it.



I'm sorry, I'm so lost.... what does flyball have to do with Sandra's post? I don't think she ever did flyball, and there is already a thread on what you are trying to bring up (which has nothing to do with the point here). 

SchH is a breed assessment for GSDs, so no GSDs should not be mixed with other breeds in order to create some sort of SchH super-breed because GSDs are *already* the SchH super-breed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Since, on page 6 and 7, flyball was discussed, even by you?? And someone said Sch was "the most serious" of all the sports and I'm like, wow, some flyball people are really REALLY into "their sport"??


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> True, but *I do agree with her that doing flyball or agility even at a novice level requires much more time and a more deliberately conditioned dog than doing club level SchH,* even with my show line dog that hasn't been super easy to title in SchH. For flyball we compete once a month and that's just as people who have fun (we aren't real competitive and don't host tournaments) but I haven't done a SchH title (not counting BH and ADs) in a year.


BTW add me to "confused". 
I'm not sure if MrsK is angry because her dogs are spayed, or if spaying completely devalues the dogs, if her dogs aren't spayed, if she got more $$ (or could have) had they been intact, or just is against s/n in general :shrug:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> BTW add me to "confused".
> I'm not sure if MrsK is angry because her dogs are spayed, or if spaying completely devalues the dogs, if her dogs aren't spayed, if she got more $$ (or could have) had they been intact, or just is against s/n in general :shrug:


It actually has nothing to do with money...

The value is perceived or intrinsic. The dogs just can't find homes if they're altered. So people that have a dog that is "washed up" or just not up to the "expert handlers" standard has a hard time finding a home if they are altered...but if they weren't fixed, they'd have a bunch of people jumping at the opportunity to get this dog...even free of charge is how I read into it.

So the inference is that Schutzhund people don't have the want to deal with a dog that is altered...my guess is because at the end of years of training/trialing there is no chance of passing on genes due to the "mistake" or decision that someone else made by altering a very good dog. So they don't even want to take the time to do all the training with it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ In short, pretty much, though it's not really that they *can't* find homes if they are altered, but they just generally aren't altered. Unless someone is selling or rehoming a retired dog, which I don't really think is what she was talking about. Green dogs and young dogs generally are not altered because there is no reason *to* alter them at that age, and not just because some people see them as breeding machines.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Sorry for confusing everyone. I was the one who brought up agility/flyball, suggesting it would likely be a lot easier to find a sport home for a competition quality dog in an agility or flyball home because people in those venues would care a lot less about a dog being altered. Mrs. K came back with those JUST being "recreational" sports and that schutzhund is a whole other ball game. I pointed out that was complete crap, to compete in agility or flyball takes the same amount of dedication and time as schutzhund. There is nothing unique about the commitment in schutzhund. 

Thats how the "other" sports came into the topic. My apologies, was this thread even about schutzhund? Or was it about altering competitive dogs? I guess I should just keep my mouth shut because I am kinda confused about the whole intent of the thread in the first place, saying that a spayed dog holds no value for breeding is like saying black is dark (uh...yeah)


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I think it's actually a covered over S/N thread.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

KristiM said:


> Sorry for confusing everyone. I was the one who brought up agility/flyball, suggesting it would likely be a lot easier to find a sport home for a competition quality dog in an agility or flyball home because people in those venues would care a lot less about a dog being altered. Mrs. K came back with those JUST being "recreational" sports and that schutzhund is a whole other ball game. I pointed out that was complete crap, to compete in agility or flyball takes the same amount of dedication and time as schutzhund. There is nothing unique about the commitment in schutzhund.
> 
> Thats how the "other" sports came into the topic. My apologies, was this thread even about schutzhund? Or was it about altering competitive dogs? I guess I should just keep my mouth shut because I am kinda confused about the whole intent of the thread in the first place, saying that a spayed dog holds no value for breeding is like saying black is dark (uh...yeah)


:thumbup: to the entire post 
Schutzhund is different but only in terms of what they do, not the amount of dedication or the fact there's (seemingly) fanatics or very serious competitors in all dog sports


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

martemchik said:


> So they don't even want to take the time to do all the training with it.



I'm curious if this is overall true, or if a top dog (even altered), who had everything it took to get to the top ranks of Schutzhund would be desirable and sought after and "valued", whereas a ho-hum dog would need to be intact to be desirable?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

KristiM said:


> Sorry for confusing everyone. I was the one who brought up agility/flyball, suggesting it would likely be a lot easier to find a sport home for a competition quality dog in an agility or flyball home because people in those venues would care a lot less about a dog being altered. Mrs. K came back with those JUST being "recreational" sports and that schutzhund is a whole other ball game. I pointed out that was complete crap, to compete in agility or flyball takes the same amount of dedication and time as schutzhund. There is nothing unique about the commitment in schutzhund.
> 
> Thats how the "other" sports came into the topic. My apologies, was this thread even about schutzhund? Or was it about altering competitive dogs? I guess I should just keep my mouth shut because I am kinda confused about the whole intent of the thread in the first place, saying that a spayed dog holds no value for breeding is like saying black is dark (uh...yeah)


It is a different ball game. Not dedication or commitment wise, that is not what I was referring to but it IS a different ball-game and the attitude in Schutzhund is different from Flyball/Agility. Especially over in Germany and just add a couple of oldtimers and you are on a complete different planet!


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

KristiM said:


> Sorry for confusing everyone. I was the one who brought up agility/flyball, suggesting it would likely be a lot easier to find a sport home for a competition quality dog in an agility or flyball home because people in those venues would care a lot less about a dog being altered. Mrs. K came back with those JUST being "recreational" sports and that schutzhund is a whole other ball game. I pointed out that was complete crap, to compete in agility or flyball takes the same amount of dedication and time as schutzhund. There is nothing unique about the commitment in schutzhund.
> 
> Thats how the "other" sports came into the topic. My apologies, was this thread even about schutzhund? Or was it about altering competitive dogs? I guess I should just keep my mouth shut because I am kinda confused about the whole intent of the thread in the first place, saying that a spayed dog holds no value for breeding is like saying black is dark (uh...yeah)


FWIW, I didn't think your post or the discussion of other sports was off-topic--the OP did just talk about rehoming "working dogs," and while she mentioned Schutzhund, I didn't think she was just referring to that. So if you misunderstood, so did I!

I think the comparison of the different attitudes towards breeding and desexing in the various sporting and working communities is far more interesting than another topic just about whether to spay/neuter, personally. I do think that SchH folks do tend to have a different attitude towards their sport than a lot of other sporting communities do, which is really interesting to me. I don't think it's more dedication or that SchH is cooler than other work, though...it's just about personal interest and what you want to do with your dog. So anyway, I've been enjoying the discussion quite a bit, though I'd be happy to take it to another thread if it's too much of a derail. 

I do also want to add that while I can't see the value of a border collie/pit bull cross for, well, anything (and I've met a few...they're nice dogs but not what I would think of as a sport prospect), I have known some herding dog breeders who do intentionally crossbreed dogs. All the ones I know are actual working ranchers who are usually mostly breeding to create dogs for their own use, and it's not like they're trying to start a new breed or anything. The puppies I've known from those litters have all been herding machines and very nice dogs.

But while I'm not inherently opposed to intentionally crossbreeding dogs for a specific purpose like that, I think that the vast majority of the time it is just some nutter who doesn't understand the first thing about breeding animals so it's not something I'd encourage either.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To speak to crossbreeding, I think it's people's notions that...Dog breed A is good at this and so is Dog Breed B, so let's mix them and get...SUPER DOG!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RowdyDogs said:


> I do also want to add that while I can't see the value of a border collie/pit bull cross for, well, anything (and I've met a few...they're nice dogs but not what I would think of as a sport prospect),


I don't know if it matters (I'm not a bully breed person) but a "Border Staffy", if that's what you are talking about, is not a pit cross, it's a Staffy cross. At least, I have not seen it done with a pit bull (or American Pit Bull Terrier). I don't know all the differences between the two but I'm guessing the bully breed people would object.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

edit: ^^^I was referring to a previous poster who implied that they were breeding pit bulls with border collies and just claiming the dog was a Staffy, which is a common thing to do in my area (calling pits Staffies, not the breeding). I'm not a bully breed person either but I have several friends who are, so I do know the difference and wouldn't want to offend anyone.  I have not personally seen a "Border Staffy," but I have seen a couple of accidental and one intentional mating between bully breeds and BCs. The intentional one was between an APBT and a BC, the others were between more generic pits and registered BCs. I didn't know that Border Staffies were a thing, though, I must admit, though according to Google they are! You learn something new every day.



msvette2u said:


> To speak to crossbreeding, I think it's people's notions that...Dog breed A is good at this and so is Dog Breed B, so let's mix them and get...SUPER DOG!


Yeah, exactly. The instances I'm thinking about that I don't have a problem with are usually carefully considered and the dogs are somewhat similar breeds (the big one in my area is border collie/ACD crosses, and border collies were a major breed used in developing the ACD), and it's more about the individual dogs than crossing the breeds, if that makes sense. It's still a gamble in a genetic sense, but if the person knows what they're doing, it can create some cool dogs.

Usually, though, it's exactly what you describe--a kooky person who doesn't have the slightest clue about genetics trying to create a super dog, or some yahoo who decides to create a new breed for money or fame or some less obvious reason. People get some weird ideas about how genetics work.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

RowdyDogs said:


> FWIW, I didn't think your post or the discussion of other sports was off-topic--the OP did just talk about rehoming "working dogs," and while she mentioned Schutzhund, I didn't think she was just referring to that. So if you misunderstood, so did I!
> 
> I think the comparison of the different attitudes towards breeding and desexing in the various sporting and working communities is far more interesting than another topic just about whether to spay/neuter, personally. I do think that SchH folks do tend to have a different attitude towards their sport than a lot of other sporting communities do, which is really interesting to me. I don't think it's more dedication or that SchH is cooler than other work, though...it's just about personal interest and what you want to do with your dog. So anyway, I've been enjoying the discussion quite a bit, though I'd be happy to take it to another thread if it's too much of a derail.
> 
> ...



You did not misunderstand


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> To speak to crossbreeding, I think it's people's notions that...Dog breed A is good at this and so is Dog Breed B, so let's mix them and get...SUPER DOG!


Well, I guess in a sense, yes, but the thing is they aren't really a flyball superdog if that's what you mean. The Whippet is by far the best breed for flyball. Perfect size, speed, fastest breed in the sport. A Border Staffy approaches the Whippet in speed but is far easier to train, a better family dog (more rough and tumble, whereas the Whippet club describes them as not), more sociable, and far more versatile. The Whippet has perfect conformation but not the right type of drive (sight hounds in a venue where there are dozens of other dogs running around and toys being thrown about....yeah you can imagine). So what the Border Staffy brings is a more versatile type of dog, not a dog *just* for one sport. They are more of an active/family/sport/versatility superdog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Well, I guess in a sense, yes, but the thing is they aren't really a flyball superdog if that's what you mean.


I don't mean anything or believe anything. 
I think it's sad people can't appreciate breeds for their own attributes but have to cross breeds to come up with "new improved" breeds, but that is what appears to be happening in some venues. 
Although we're straying a ways off topic, what was wrong with just border collies doing that work, or Am Staffs - well, I could see size with amstaffs, but BCs?? Why not just use that breed??

In the case of our breeder (of the rescued dog we had) and I use that term loosely, he felt GSDs alone weren't working out for him, so crossed with Dutch. 

Keeping in mind, this whole rabbit trail started because someone made a comment about how Sch people were more serious (??) than flyball people, etc., and my comment was, maybe different but certainly no less compulsive...


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I think that the difference in attitude in agility is due to the fact that the emphasis of value is placed on the trainers and less so the dogs themselves. Take a national level agility competitor, they likely wont ever make a cent off their dogs but make a good deal off money teaching others. Take Susan Garrett for example, because of her success in the sport with her own dogs people will pay $500+ just to take an ONLINE course with her (I don't even want to know how much it would cost to go to one of her camps!) Whereas your average national level competitor in schutzhund probably makes a few bucks doing seminars etc because of successes with their personal dogs but likely would do a lot better breeding nice dogs for the sport rather than teaching. 

I can't really speak to how this works in flyball, I did compete in the sport but it was only for a year or so and that was over 8 years ago. I know the sport has evolved a lot since then. 

Now I know people are gonna go "see that's because you can do agility with crappy dogs!" Which is absolutely not true, to do really well in schutzhund you need a talented dog with a certain temperament and you need the same for agility. The qualities are just different. In both sports to get to high levels you need equally talented dogs and handlers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Actually coming from a biology background, outcrossing can do a lot of good if done carefully and I think it is something breeders are going to need to start looking into in the future if they want to preserve the health of many of the breeds we have now, considering how inbred many of them are since they have banned all outcrossing for so long and have closed studbooks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chicagocanine said:


> Actually coming from a biology background, outcrossing can do a lot of good if done carefully and I think it is something breeders are going to need to start looking into in the future if they want to preserve the health of many of the breeds we have now, considering how inbred many of them are since they have banned all outcrossing for so long and have closed studbooks.


And yet in our breed, we have several pretty distinct lines. The dogs would be able to be registered as well. But the show breeders do not even want to cross the German showlines into their lines anymore, they used to quite a bit, but now the specialty lines seem so far on one side, and the attitude about the German dogs, at least at my club is, well... Well, I don't even think some of them realize the German Show Lines are not one and the same to the various working lines. 

I guess if people are so set on their own lines, that they would not consider an outcross from one of the other lines. I think most of them would be as apt to agreeing to mixing their dogs with a kangaroo than mixing it with a different breed.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Iv been shopping around for another Schutzhund dog thats between 1-2 years, any time the dog is altered I move on. As far as I am concerned any working/sport dog thats altered will have less drive and have no chance of passing on his / her genetics. At the club I go to, there is quite a bit of dog trading and buying and selling and none of these dogs are fixed..nor are they probably ever going to be whether they are bred or not. There are also a number of people at the club that supply PDs and yes they sometimes get dogs from local club members and the local area. 
Fixing a working / sport dog does remove value and removes the desirability of the dog.
Personally I dont think Ill ever breed my female but she will remain unspayed, I would like to keep her forever but life can happen.

Breeders can demand a title before breeding rights are handed over, but fixing a purebred working / sport dog or one that is capable of the work makes no sense, and does a disservice to the dog. Same as people who refuse to crop their dobe's ears then when life happens the dog is up on the classifieds for months..they cant even give the dog away. Im sure they got to feel very good about not mutilating their fur baby..but in the end they only vastly curtailed the number of homes that would be open to him or her. 
You can rail against people treating like equipment or not valueing dogs for their intrinsic worth, or their ability to pass on genetics, but this is the real world we live in. Most people in dogs do care about their dogs but in many cases theres practicalities to consider. Factors that increase value and desirability. There are much easier ways dogs to make money then working with dogs lol.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> Well, I guess in a sense, yes, but the thing is they aren't really a flyball superdog if that's what you mean. The Whippet is by far the best breed for flyball. Perfect size, speed, fastest breed in the sport. A Border Staffy approaches the Whippet in speed but is far easier to train, a better family dog (more rough and tumble, whereas the Whippet club describes them as not), more sociable, and far more versatile. The Whippet has perfect conformation but not the right type of drive (sight hounds in a venue where there are dozens of other dogs running around and toys being thrown about....yeah you can imagine).


Totally agree with you on that. We have two young Whippets in our flyball club, and they're taking a LOT of training, most of it revolving around the retrieving part of flyball. Resource is blazingly fast and has a very nice box turn, but it's been a long struggle to get her to get the ball from the box and bring it all the way back to the handler. I think she was in training even before Halo, who has been racing since last April, and Re is still doing warmups and occasionally they give her a heat or two in competition to see how she does, but I don't think she's successfully completed a single one yet. We like to joke that Whippets have only a single "ball" molecule in their brains, and figuring out how to activate it is the challenge. Keeping her focused and on task is always a struggle, even at practice, which is much less distracting than a tournament environment. Gnasher has also been training for a while and is nowhere near race ready - her owner is having the same problem regarding lack of interest in retrieving the ball. She's also crazy fast.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Is the dog spayed... that value is gone and it drives me crazy to see really nice working dogs, struggling to find a home because they got spayed by the speuter crazy community.


I can't say I agree with this.. Nor do I think the dogs valve decreases. Because that spayed/neutered dog can have valve to someone, somewhere.. 

Nor do I think a dogs drive decreases when they've been spayed or neutered.. or at least not that I've seen..

If one is looking to make money Mrs. K then yeah I suppose the dog loses it's valve, but not everyone in the sport of SchH is looking to breed their dog or produce puppies.. Good genetics or not.. Some people have other motives for doing the sport..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

G-burg said:


> I can't say I agree with this.. Nor do I think the dogs valve decreases. Because that spayed/neutered dog can have valve to someone, somewhere..
> 
> Nor do I think a dogs drive decreases when they've been spayed or neutered.. or at least not that I've seen..
> 
> If one is looking to make money Mrs. K then yeah I suppose the dog loses it's valve, but not everyone in the sport of SchH is looking to breed their dog or produce puppies.. Good genetics or not.. Some people have other motives for doing the sport..


Well, it's my experience and you won't find anyone, back where I'm from, that would ever spay their dog without a medical reason. Everything else is viewed as an invasion into the animals health and completely unnecessary.

Maybe people are just better equipped or better prepared to deal with bitches in heat and certain other things than pet people are (yes I'm generalizing). I know I have no issue in separating males and females. 
I have an intact male and female and in four years I've had not a single oops litter even though I don't do anything other special than crating. 

If you listen to the speuter crazy chorus keeping two intact dogs together is merely impossible without producing an oops litter. So no reason to spay.
Unless I have proof of pyometra, there will be no spay. 
And I won't spay just because there could be a health problem down the road. Nobody is taking out my reproductive organs either. And I won't spay just because I might re-home or sell a dog and just because the new owners could be bad. 
I would like to re-home my dogs within the community and if I pay 80 bucks an hour and have an awesome bitch, then yeah, I would like for her to continue that path and possibly be used to strengthen the gene pool.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Well this thread was about a dog losing it's valve if it's spayed or neutered and that's what I was commenting on..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Well this thread was about a dog losing it's valve if it's spayed or neutered and that's what I was commenting on..


With a lot of people the dog is losing value. Not all of them, of course but with a lot of people it is, especially in SchH. But who knows, maybe the view is shifting to a different direction. Not saying that it is a bad shift. It has happened with the training method, so maybe it's going to happen with spayed dogs too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Well, it's my experience and you won't find anyone, back where I'm from, that would ever spay their dog without a medical reason. Everything else is viewed as an invasion into the animals health and completely unnecessary.


Well, that seems to be a cultural difference between where you're from, and where you live now.  I've heard many times before that dogs are not routinely spayed/neutered in Europe. So what? I certainly wouldn't expect things to be the same as what I'm used to if I were to move to another country. The thing is you DO live here now, so there's really no point in complaining about how things are different in the US.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Born and raised in the great USA. Unless medical or management is a problem my boys nads will fly free forever.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

So...what was the point of this thread, again?? I think Jacksdad called it a few pages ago


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

G-burg said:


> I can't say I agree with this.. Nor do I think the dogs valve decreases. Because that spayed/neutered dog can have valve to someone, somewhere..
> 
> Nor do I think a dogs drive decreases when they've been spayed or neutered.. or at least not that I've seen..
> 
> If one is looking to make money Mrs. K then yeah I suppose the dog loses it's valve, but not everyone in the sport of SchH is looking to breed their dog or produce puppies.. Good genetics or not.. Some people have other motives for doing the sport..


Thank you for bringing this up, Leesa. I don't do SchH so I don't really know, but surely it's not THAT uncommon for people to participate in the sport who don't have any intention of breeding their dog, and no interest in selling them? 

The idea that my dogs are less valuable because they're speutered is a completely foreign concept to me - frankly I find it rather bizarre to even think in those terms. But I guess that's because their value exceeds any price they could possibly bring, even if still intact, even if they were competing at the highest levels in Schutzhund. To me they are priceless, I couldn't calculate their value in monetary terms, and not just because I would never sell them. If I were forced to rehome them due to unforseen circumstances then I suppose I would have to, but I wouldn't sell them any more than I would sell another member of my family.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To each their own...to me a dog older than a few months has no monetary value at all. I'll compensate a breeder for their work, and I'd compensate a rescue for their work if I was adopting, but I'd look at it more as a donation to the rescue so they can do what they do rather than a true payment for said dog.

If I was looking for a dog, and someone wanted to re-home theirs and there was an interest, I would not expect to pay for that dog. No matter how many titles he/she has slapped on behind their name. Sorry...if you're re-homing, and I'm giving this dog a "pet/working" home, I'm doing YOU a favor. If they want money to "make sure I'm a good home" I'll move on to the next person with a dog that needs a home (there's no shortage of them). If (Like in Mrs. K's situation) I was doing something that I really needed to make sure a dog was good for, I'd definitely consider paying for an older dog...but even then I understand why the neutering/spaying thing would matter. Say I paid for the dog to be a great SAR dog...and although not a guarantee, logically if that dog had puppies they would be more inclined to be better at SAR...possibly giving me my next generation of SAR dog at a lower cost and also possibly providing more SAR dogs for others to use. If the dog is bred...I have less chance/risk that the puppy won't work out. If that dog is speutered...I have to go through this again in x amount of years to find my next dog.

Here is a conversation I overheard this weekend at my club...a breeder has an 18 month old male that didn't work out for conformation. She wasn't to rehome him. Someone at the club told others about him and they're interested. The price the lady said (without talking to breeder) was $500, the breeder said she'd be happy with $250 but since she already told them $500, tell them $350. Why the sudden change of $100? Because you now know you can get that much?

Now...my dogs breeder...had a year old pup returned to them by the family due to circumstances that aren't the dog's fault. They just want to find her a good home and wouldn't ask for any money. Why? They've been compensated for that dog once, now it just deserves a good home.

I also know both of these situations are pet homes and not Schutzhund, but either way, its just the mindset of the people that are looking to either rehome or adopt another dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think I will stop reading this thread -I have spent nothing $20 and 1500 on a dog and all have had value to me-


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

holland said:


> I think I will stop reading this thread -I have spent nothing $20 and 1500 on a dog and all have had value to me-


Haha...absolutely! But can you quantify it?

I've thought about it before...if someone offered me a rediculous amount of money for my dog...could I sell him? I don't know if I could but it would be stupid to turn down a crazy figure. I love him to pieces but if you're offered a life changing figure for a dog...how hard would it be to say no?


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Breeders can demand a title before breeding rights are handed over, but fixing a purebred working / sport dog or one that is capable of the work makes no sense, and does a disservice to the dog. Same as people who refuse to crop their dobe's ears then when life happens the dog is up on the classifieds for months..they cant even give the dog away. Im sure they got to feel very good about not mutilating their fur baby..but in the end they only vastly curtailed the number of homes that would be open to him or her.


I will agree that spay/neuter and not meeting breed standards with regard to cropping/docking has the potential to reduce the monetary value of a purebred dog. People who want pets or companions usually want to buy puppies if they're going to shell out big money. For older dogs, breeders will make up a big part of the market that will pay for the dog. So if the Dobie with natural ears who has been languishing on Craigslist is being sold for the same price as a puppy or an adult dog with titles and breeding potential, then I agree with you.

I also agree that it will turn off many potential working homes, at least in the SchH and similar communities where it is the norm for dogs to be intact. So I'm not arguing with the majority of your post. 

But has it really been your experience that desexed or undocked purebreds are that difficult to find good homes for? That's an honest question, because it really hasn't been mine. I've just never seen much of a correlation between placing dogs in good homes and whether or not they were docked, and IMO desexing them actually does open up a ton of doors for them in terms of homes, because there are far more people (in the US anyway) who don't want to deal with an intact dog than there are working homes that care about them being intact. There are also a significant number of people who either don't care if the dog is cropped/docked, or even prefer a natural look.

I realize that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data," but I just don't think that desexing makes it hard to find a good home for a dog or is necessarily a disservice to the animal. It just will make it difficult to find a very specific kind of home, if that makes sense, but if someone doesn't care about the financial value of their animal, I don't see why it is a problem.



Mrs.K said:


> If you listen to the speuter crazy chorus keeping two intact dogs together is merely impossible without producing an oops litter. So no reason to spay.


To be fair, I'm one of the people who will publicly say that in most forums. I look at boards like this a little different, as there are a lot of responsible people on this board who are totally capable of doing it, and if there is an accidental breeding (which can happen even to the best owner), they'll handle it responsibly. They're not the ones adding to the pet overpopulation problem.

But in, say, a general dog care forum that attracts a lot of newbies? You bet I'll harp on how difficult it is to prevent accidental breedings, because it seems to be extremely difficult for most people, at least in my state. We have a lot of people who don't believe in spay/neuter, but also are too casual about preventing accidental breedings. As a result, we also have a huge dog overpopulation problem. I've volunteered for both spay/neuter education outreach and in kill shelters, so I've seen this firsthand.

So as long as people are responsible, I don't care a bit whether they alter their dogs or not...but in my experience, most people (again, at least in my area) aren't that responsible, so I err on the side of advocating spay/neuter. My opinion isn't going to influence someone who is educated and responsible enough to keep intact dogs securely, but it might influence someone who just never thought about it and has been adding to the unwanted pet population for years as a result.

I also think that, while of course there are some fringe crazies, most spay/neuter advocates are coming from the same place as I am. A lot of people come across as more extreme online than they are in reality as well, which I think helps to give a bad name to spay/neuter advocates (and I myself probably add to that). Again, that's been my experience anyway.

Plus, every community has their fringe crazies. I was once attacked by a spay/neuter advocate because I don't spay my mares--nevermind that spaying a horse is not like spaying a dog, and is a difficult, dangerous and expensive procedure that is only done when medically necessary, which is rare. Even horse rescues don't spay their mares.  But I was also once criticized quite rudely by a SchH guy who said that I should just put my dog down now since he's a GSD who doesn't have the temperament for SchH, nevermind the fact that he's desexed, has no papers because he was a stray, and is a great dog for my needs.  Animal people are crazy, what else is there to say?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Haha...absolutely! But can you quantify it?
> 
> I've thought about it before...if someone offered me a rediculous amount of money for my dog...could I sell him? I don't know if I could but it would be stupid to turn down a crazy figure. I love him to pieces but if you're offered a life changing figure for a dog...how hard would it be to say no?


Easily, anything has it's price. A dog is only worth as much as someone is willing to pat, whether it be $10 or $1,000,000

To me, my dogs are priceless. No matter what sum, or even if you offered me a private island in Hawaii and a jet I'd laugh and thank you and walk away with my dog still attached to my hip. I'm honest when I say it wouldn't even tempt me for a moment 

Just because a dog is neutered/spayed doesn't mean it's worthless, to the proper home they'll love it no matter what.

A dog shouldn't be judged solely because it can reproduce, that's ridiculous. So the stupidest mangy unaltered mutt is worth more then a purebred spayed female? Just because it can pass along it's genes, no matter that it might be garbage


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Has anyone tried to sell an altered SchH started or titled dog to another SchH competitor? I'm not sure it's even done that often... OK my friend just bought her own dog *back* and I think the people she sold him to had him neutered but then did nothing with him (no training, no bonding, complained about all these things he supposedly did) so she bought him back. Other than that...all the dogs I've known that have been bought/sold SchH home to SchH home have been intact, but I can only think of a few instances...


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Has anyone tried to sell an altered SchH started or titled dog to another SchH competitor? I'm not sure it's even done that often... OK my friend just bought her own dog *back* and I think the people she sold him to had him neutered but then did nothing with him (no training, no bonding, complained about all these things he supposedly did) so she bought him back. Other than that...all the dogs I've known that have been bought/sold SchH home to SchH home have been intact, but I can only think of a few instances...


I have not done it personally, but I have seen two SchH dogs (I don't recall whether they were just well-started in training or titled, if I ever knew) placed into homes that got them specifically because of that training. I mentioned it earlier I think...both homes weren't necessarily SchH homes, but they were looking for protection dogs as well as companions, and kept up with the training even though they weren't specifically into dog sports. One got really into SchH as a result though, from what I heard.

They were both kind of special circumstances though and I don't know how normal it is, though just from knowing a lot of people in the local SchH community I don't think it's all that common--could easily be wrong on that though.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Has anyone tried to sell an altered SchH started or titled dog to another SchH competitor? I'm not sure it's even done that often... OK my friend just bought her own dog *back* and I think the people she sold him to had him neutered but then did nothing with him (no training, no bonding, complained about all these things he supposedly did) so she bought him back. Other than that...all the dogs I've known that have been bought/sold SchH home to SchH home have been intact, but I can only think of a few instances...



Exactly!




> but I have seen two SchH dogs (I don't recall whether they were just well-started in training or titled, if I ever knew) placed into homes that got them specifically because of that training. I mentioned it earlier I think...both homes weren't necessarily SchH homes, but they were looking for protection dogs as well as companions,


Personal protection is different from SchH. People generally don't want to be bothered with dogs in heat and if personal protection is all they want them for, that I can see the dog being speutered for that purpose. 

Everyone probably knows one or two people that have sold a speutered SchH dog but the point is, that is very unusual and generally doesn't happen.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> To each their own...to me a dog older than a few months has no monetary value at all. I'll compensate a breeder for their work, and I'd compensate a rescue for their work if I was adopting, but I'd look at it more as a donation to the rescue so they can do what they do rather than a true payment for said dog.
> 
> If I was looking for a dog, and someone wanted to re-home theirs and there was an interest, I would not expect to pay for that dog. No matter how many titles he/she has slapped on behind their name. Sorry...if you're re-homing, and I'm giving this dog a "pet/working" home, I'm doing YOU a favor. If they want money to "make sure I'm a good home" I'll move on to the next person with a dog that needs a home (there's no shortage of them). If (Like in Mrs. K's situation) I was doing something that I really needed to make sure a dog was good for, I'd definitely consider paying for an older dog...but even then I understand why the neutering/spaying thing would matter. Say I paid for the dog to be a great SAR dog...and although not a guarantee, logically if that dog had puppies they would be more inclined to be better at SAR...possibly giving me my next generation of SAR dog at a lower cost and also possibly providing more SAR dogs for others to use. If the dog is bred...I have less chance/risk that the puppy won't work out. If that dog is speutered...I have to go through this again in x amount of years to find my next dog.
> 
> ...


Not everyone wants to risk buying a puppy. They can see the temperament and the hip and elbows, and the size and structure of an adult dog. It actually makes sense to spend MORE money to get a green or started dog for sport, work or breeding in a lot of cases. Not everyone is hung up on the cuteness of puppies, and the need to have the baby months of a dog. Certainly not everyone looks at dogs beyond a few months of age as worthless in a monetary sense. 

Most police departments do not start with puppies, many buy the dog already trained, but others buy green dogs and train them themselves, but starting with a puppy is such a crap shoot, that few start with puppies.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RowdyDogs said:


> I have not done it personally, but I have seen two SchH dogs (I don't recall whether they were just well-started in training or titled, if I ever knew) placed into homes that got them specifically because of that training. I mentioned it earlier I think...both homes weren't necessarily SchH homes, but they were looking for protection dogs as well as companions, and kept up with the training even though they weren't specifically into dog sports. One got really into SchH as a result though, from what I heard.
> 
> They were both kind of special circumstances though and I don't know how normal it is, though just from knowing a lot of people in the local SchH community I don't think it's all that common--could easily be wrong on that though.



Right, I've seen people who want trained or titled dogs but don't actually do SchH themselves buy adult titled dogs and do whatever they want with them, but perhaps we're all getting our panties in a bundle over nothing. I really don't think there's a huge issue with selling SchH dogs within the SchH community. For one, like I said, the general attitude is that the dogs aren't altered unless they need to be, so it's not like someone insisting on an altered dog couldn't find one for sale, or someone who wanted their dog altered couldn't buy an intact one and alter it. I've never heard of a SchH person finding a green or young dog they really liked but not buying it because it was already altered. I think the whole concept that within the SchH community an altered dog has less value is kind of a moot point. As far as other sports go...well if you want your dogs altered, you're in luck! You can buy an altered dog, or buy and intact dog an alter it.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> To each their own...to me a dog older than a few months has no monetary value at all. I'll compensate a breeder for their work, and I'd compensate a rescue for their work if I was adopting, but I'd look at it more as a donation to the rescue so they can do what they do rather than a true payment for said dog.
> 
> If I was looking for a dog, and someone wanted to re-home theirs and there was an interest, I would not expect to pay for that dog. No matter how many titles he/she has slapped on behind their name. Sorry...if you're re-homing, and I'm giving this dog a "pet/working" home, I'm doing YOU a favor. If they want money to "make sure I'm a good home" I'll move on to the next person with a dog that needs a home (there's no shortage of them). If (Like in Mrs. K's situation) I was doing something that I really needed to make sure a dog was good for, I'd definitely consider paying for an older dog...but even then I understand why the neutering/spaying thing would matter. Say I paid for the dog to be a great SAR dog...and although not a guarantee, logically if that dog had puppies they would be more inclined to be better at SAR...possibly giving me my next generation of SAR dog at a lower cost and also possibly providing more SAR dogs for others to use. If the dog is bred...I have less chance/risk that the puppy won't work out. If that dog is speutered...I have to go through this again in x amount of years to find my next dog.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this post!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yah... damned if you do, damned if you don't. Selling IS re-homing. Just saying. 

Re-homing, Selling, Adopting... in the end it's all the same. No matter how you call it. 

Some cry if you re-home a dog for free others cry if you sell the dog. 

Honestly, I don't care what you do. It's none of anyones business unless you dump the dog at the side of the road or leave him outside of a shelter.

Also, it's kind of sad that people believe that you don't love the dog just because you are selling and not "rehoming" it. Selling IS re-homing. When I dropped off Indra I was standing in my trainers apartment crying like a five year old, knowing that I would never see her again. I cried just as much as MaDeuces owner when she dropped off MaDeuce at my place. 

She didn't charge me anything for MaDeuce. I did get money for Indra. But both of us have one thing in common. We both keep tabs on "our" dogs. We are both with the new owner in contact. She with me, and I with Indra's new owner and both of us would take "our" dogs back in a heart beat. 

I actually talked to MaDeuces old owner and she said to let her know and she will somehow make it work because it's just not the same without MaDeuce and I have to agree with her. It's not the same without Indra and it wouldn't be the same without MaDeuce. MaDeuce is always good for a laugh. I love how crafty she is. I love how she's giving me the run around and how she's dragging stuff outside and how she's all consuming. 

No matter how you re-home your dogs. It's NEVER easy and it's not supposed to be easy.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Not everyone is going to agree with you, no matter how many different ways you word it. If its no ones business then don't start a discussion about it on a public forum.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

After reading this post, I think too many people are stuck on the money factor. I think the "value" is more the workability of the dog. I know tons of schutzhund and other protection sport people that have no desire to ever breed but still want the dog intact for other reasons. I'm one of them. I would venture to say that the majority of protection sport people want their dogs intact. As far as saying spuetering an animal has no effect on drive, I don't know how any one would test that. Too many variables to make that a claim.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

KristiM said:


> Not everyone is going to agree with you, no matter how many different ways you word it. If its no ones business then don't start a discussion about it on a public forum.


This discussion was NOT about me selling my dog! This discussion is about spaying a dog and taking it's value with that! However, quite a few posts hit the "If I EVER was in a situation like that..." nerve describing exactly what happened to me and pinching me with as many needles as possible! 

Sorry, but unless you ARE in that kind of situation you don't know what you are going to do. 

Re-homing is Re-homing but spaying "just because..." that I will never understand. Yeah, I do have a different mindset on that. But I have a different mindset on guns too. I come from a different culture and I cannot comprehend the American way of thinking on that. To me it is an invasion into the dog and unless there is something wrong with the dog, I wouldn't do it. 

Also, it's taking the responsibility away from people. They should be held responsible much more than they are but in the US everything seems to be about convenience. So is spaying. "Here, let's spay this dog, so you don't have to worry about heat and opps litters."


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

I believe the 'value of a dog' is subjective and I don't think it has anything to do with spaying/neutering.

If you're a breeder or want to participate in conformation shows/breeds surveys, etc., then yes, you'll want a dog intact. 
(You can do many sports without having the dog intact.)

If I wanted a highly trained SchH or PPD dog, already trained, I wouldn't care whether it's been spayed/neutered. 
A trained dog is a trained dog.

Puppies can be a crapshoot...even from working or titled parents.
'Green dogs' are up-and-coming, partially trained, for whatever purpose you're looking for.
With that dog, you'll see it's potential, temperament and possibly structure, better than with a new pup.

Depending on WHY you want a dog and WHAT you plan to do do with the dog, might determine its 'value', for some people.

I've had both, intact and 'speutered' (!?) dogs. I do sports with some and have had others as 'pets'.
Heat cycles in females don't bother me if kept intact.

For me, the spay/neuter thing never been an issue, nor does it determine the dogs 'value', in my eyes.

I love all of my dogs and consider them all valuable.

JMO.  Kat


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Is it possible that some people see the value of their dog as being more than if whether or not they can generate $$$ from their uterus? 

I can't believe how opinionated some people are about what good, caring owners are doing to their own dogs. I do not judge other people's decisions on how they care for their animals, as long as they are receiving good care. Leave them intact, or don't, I don't care, it's not my dog or my business. There are TONS of good breeding dogs out there, mine doesn't have to be one of them.

There are a lot more pet owners than people who truly work their dogs. There are some health benefits (particularly for females) to having the animal spayed or neutered.

I'm a pet owner who's interested in working my dog. I have NO interest in breeding. EVER. I don't care how well bred my dog may or may not be, I don't care how well she does in sport. I'm never going to breed her. There are many quality dogs out there who are bred by knowledgeable people who should be breeding. I'm a novice and I have absolutely no business breeding. My dog comes from good bloodlines, does that mean I need to keep her intact and breed her? She will never be for sale. 

I had her spayed because it made the most sense to me. It virtually eliminated the chance of her getting mammary cancer, her personality remains completely unchanged, and frankly, on my flyball team they were complaining about two different intact females who shut down for weeks surrounding their heats, which makes them unreliable members of the flyball team and they have a tournament coming up this weekend that they had to pull them (two of their best dogs) from because they won't run.

All of our pets growing up have been spayed or neutered and they all lived happy, healthy long lives.

So I could see that a professional handler would want their dogs intact, because they are more likely to want to breed them. But I don't think it takes away from their performance if they are altered, actually I think it can help keep them more focused on the job at hand.

I'm a horse person, and trying to ride mares who are in season can be an awful experience, and stallions require a very experienced handler and your facilities need to be set up properly to accommodate a stallion. Geldings are a far more popular choice for riders, because they don't get distracted by raging hormones, are more even tempered, why would the same not be true for dogs?

If you're a pro who has an interest in breeding then, yes, an intact dog would be better for you. But I would not say an altered dog is less valuable. Less valuable to who? A breeder? There are more people out there not breeding than those who are. 

There's a lady in our schutzhund group who was also a schutzhund judge. Her female is spayed and she just came in 3rd at the championships last year, the dog was sold shortly afterward. So obviously someone saw her value.

Not everyone wants to breed, and for those people, an altered dog can be a better choice for them. I find schutzhund people to be very forceful in their opinions and ideas. While I really, truly admire the sport and the amount of work and dedication from the handlers, I wish they'd mind their own business when it comes to the management of other peoples animals, unless it's a case of cruelty or neglect.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> This discussion was NOT about me selling my dog! This discussion is about spaying a dog and taking it's value with that! However, quite a few posts hit the "If I EVER was in a situation like that..." nerve describing exactly what happened to me and pinching me with as many needles as possible!
> 
> Sorry, but unless you ARE in that kind of situation you don't know what you are going to do.
> 
> ...


Not really what I meant.....Not everyone is going to agree with you on the the value of a dog having the ability to reproduce or whether or not they can be sold.....for many people the value has more to do with how well the dog competes, how well the dog works (SAR, police k9 etc) and for most people a dog's value comes from companionship.

I have rehomed a dog.....and I have thought long and hard about rehoming one of my current dogs. I have strong opinions about when *I* believe it's approprite for ME to get rid of a dog and when its not. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. Part of the reason this is driving me so crazy is because I am staring at the fact that a young dog that I own and have put a TON of work into may not be able to compete in my sport. But I sought him out and bought him as a puppy and now I feel that he is MY dog, I am attached to him and he is VERY attached to me.... so he will stay. If you need to rehome your dog that's fine, I suggested looking into other sports where the value lies in whether or not the dog can compete, not whether or not the dog can reproduce. 

(I have to admit I can get a bad attitude towards this stuff because I have known some people who were overly callous towards their sporting dogs. I am not saying that is you, I am just saying that it exists and it makes me sad.)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Also, it's taking the responsibility away from people. They should be held responsible much more than they are but in the US everything seems to be about convenience. So is spaying. "Here, let's spay this dog, so you don't have to worry about heat and opps litters."


Whatever the reason, it exists so why are you railing against it so?? This is a different country, different culture, what is _wrong_ with that?? Nothing. Nothing at all.
There's a number of health issues that spaying can prevent - so what is the big "assault" on a dog if one does it?? 
I've said this before - dogs don't live to be 80 yrs. old, or 90 yrs. old. 
If they did, I could see the issue. But the hard cold fact is, we will outlive them. They _will_ die of _something._ 

My dogs are much much more than just a uterus (or testicles) with hair and legs, and if the people you hang out with don't view them as more than that, that's _their_ problem, not yours or ours.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Whatever the reason, it exists so why are you railing against it so?? This is a different country, different culture, what is _wrong_ with that?? Nothing. Nothing at all.
> There's a number of health issues that spaying can prevent - so what is the big "assault" on a dog if one does it??
> I've said this before - dogs don't live to be 80 yrs. old, or 90 yrs. old.
> If they did, I could see the issue. But the hard cold fact is, we will outlive them. They _will_ die of _something._
> ...


 I agree msevette: I have never understood why it's anyones business what someone else does with regard to S/N.

Value is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> I agree msevette: I have never understood why it's anyones business what someone else does with regard to S/N.
> 
> Value is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.


Yeah...which is exactly what I said in my post but for some reason people still decided to correct me on it.

I KNOW that there are people out there that would pay for a green dog, or a trained dog, or an older dog because they know what the health/temperament is like. But there are a lot more people out there that wouldn't. I think what OP is getting at is that once a dog is S/N, for most SchH people, the value greatly decreases (doesn't matter why, I bet most of them can't even give you a reason). So she is wondering why people do it to the animal when they're planning on rehoming?

And yes...there are other sport venues where people would be fine with taking in those dogs...and some of you have had success placing dogs in those homes. But the fact is...we all run in our own circles. So SchH people will have better luck finding a SchH home than they would an agility or flyball home. On top of that...unless you're really attached to the GSD breed, a GSD is not the top dog for agility or flyball.

So what I'm getting at, is that for some reason, if you don't S/N the dog you plan on rehoming...you have 10 people knocking at your door to give your dog a home. If you do S/N...you'll be lucky to get one. Is this correct Mrs. K?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> So what I'm getting at, is that for some reason, if you don't S/N the dog you plan on rehoming...you have 10 people knocking at your door to give your dog a home. If you do S/N...you'll be lucky to get one. Is this correct Mrs. K?


Yes!

That is exactly it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

KristiM said:


> Not really what I meant.....Not everyone is going to agree with you on the the value of a dog having the ability to reproduce or whether or not they can be sold.....for many people the value has more to do with how well the dog competes, how well the dog works (SAR, police k9 etc) and for most people a dog's value comes from companionship.
> 
> I have rehomed a dog.....and I have thought long and hard about rehoming one of my current dogs. I have strong opinions about when *I* believe it's approprite for ME to get rid of a dog and when its not. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. Part of the reason this is driving me so crazy is because I am staring at the fact that a young dog that I own and have put a TON of work into may not be able to compete in my sport. But I sought him out and bought him as a puppy and now I feel that he is MY dog, I am attached to him and he is VERY attached to me.... so he will stay. If you need to rehome your dog that's fine, I suggested looking into other sports where the value lies in whether or not the dog can compete, not whether or not the dog can reproduce.
> 
> (I have to admit I can get a bad attitude towards this stuff because I have known some people who were overly callous towards their sporting dogs. I am not saying that is you, I am just saying that it exists and it makes me sad.)



Yeah, I didn't rehome Indra because she didn't work out for SAR or for SchH. That wasn't the reason. She is an excellent dog. Especially for SAR. Not every dog jumps out of a building, hits the ground hard, gets up with a wagging tail and indicating like nothing ever happened all happy and tail wagging. I love her. But I had to make a decision based on my situation and that is not a good one. 

I am trying to build a business out of desperation and the money I got from her, went halfway into the costs involved and halfway into a security blanket, so I can up and leave to Florida if I have to.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok, but then if we are using Schutzhund people as an example, they are probably not very likely to S/N, right? So it's kind of a moot point anyway, in that case.

I think a big part of the S/N argument is that here in NA, people are brought up being told that this is the responsible thing to do with their pets. And I think largely it is.

I guess you just have to do what is right for you. And I wouldn't come down on someone for spaying or neutering, nor would I for keeping their pets intact. Either way, I expect people to be responsible for their animals and not let them run around willy-nilly, getting themselves into trouble.

I spayed my dog, for reasons mentioned before. I do think there are health benefits, and yes it's more convenient, but if I truly believed it was bad for my dog, I wouldn't do it just for my sake. 

My dog was off for about one day when she was spayed, and that was more from the anesthetic, then didn't look back. So I can't say it's caused her to suffer any either. 

She's still my wild, high drive, sassy girl.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Personally, and I'm speaking as a non-breeder, it's a bonus to me if the dog has already been spayed/neutered. Since I don't intend to breed and I don't care to deal with an intact dog (for several reasons), at least I don't have to pay for that surgery if it's already been done. So the value to me is actually greater.

If I were a breeder or competitor, I might feel differently. The times that I've had to re-home a dog, I've been willing to go either way depending on the dog in question and the new owner. Rescues are automatically spayed/neutered. If the dog is a breedworthy purebred, I'd leave it up to the new owner, if I trusted their judgement.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Freestep said:


> *Personally, and I'm speaking as a non-breeder, it's a bonus to me if the dog has already been spayed/neutered.* Since I don't intend to breed and I don't care to deal with an intact dog (for several reasons), at least I don't have to pay for that surgery if it's already been done. So the value to me is actually greater.
> 
> If I were a breeder or competitor, I might feel differently. The times that I've had to re-home a dog, I've been willing to go either way depending on the dog in question and the new owner. Rescues are automatically spayed/neutered. If the dog is a breedworthy purebred, I'd leave it up to the new owner, if I trusted their judgement.


I feel the same way about any dog I get. I already enough have complications in my life (as in autistic kids), and don't need the added complication of an intact dog. If I get a dog that is unaltered, I _will_ be altering it.

Originally, I was going to rehome Leo, seeing as how I already had two dogs, one of which I was competing in obedience and rally with. I needed a third dog like I needed a hole in my head. However, the only people who inquired about her lost interest when they found out she was going to be spayed before she left me. Could it have been due to the loss of her potential as a puppy machine? Maybe. I don't know for sure, seeing as how they never got back to me.

Anyway, I'm keeping her, and she is going to be spayed for two reasons. One, I don't _want_ to deal with an intact bitch, and all the headaches that go along with heat cycles. Two, in order to get her PAL, she needs to be spayed. And seeing as how she is going to "replace"* my current competition dog, she needs a PAL. 

*My current dog is retiring from the AKC obedience ring after this weekend, and while I will be doing different things with her, her main "value" is, and always has been, as my pet.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Personally, and I'm speaking as a non-breeder, it's a bonus to me if the dog has already been spayed/neutered. Since I don't intend to breed and I don't care to deal with an intact dog (for several reasons), at least I don't have to pay for that surgery if it's already been done. So the value to me is actually greater.


But would you not buy a dog that you really liked if the only thing you didn't like was that it was still intact?

I feel the opposite, if I'm selling or rehoming a dog, I'm not going to alter it. That comes with its own risks and is not cheap. If the new owner wants to, I will not stop them, not even recommend against it, but that's their decision, their risk, their money.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

blackshep said:


> Ok, but then if we are using Schutzhund people as an example, they are probably not very likely to S/N, right? So it's kind of a moot point anyway, in that case.


No I think what OP brought up was that for some reason to be "responsible" the Schutzhund people make the decision to rehome, and get the dog altered, not realizing that they've just decreased their chances to find this dog a Schutzhund home.

So say a high level competitor has a dog, it doesn't work out, he wants to rehome, he alters the dog. Now...this would be a great dog for a mid-level competitor, but the mid-level competitor now doesn't want the dog, only because its altered.

I think the problem is that although an altered dog would find a pet home much quicker, its harder for these dogs to find those homes. And I know people have done it, but that doesn't make the exception the rule. So an altered dog would be more likely to find a home in an agility household...problem is, Schutzhund people don't talk to agility people, so their best bet is to look for another Schutzhund home.

Just a note on that comment...my GSD club holds an agility trial every year. 300 runs a day that will be increased to 600 runs a day this year. We were booked solid...and there were 3 GSDs there. Now, I've started training in agility so I'll be there next year, and we have a few other green dogs that will be ready to go by August, but in general the agility crowd isn't looking for GSDs.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Liesje said:


> *But would you not buy a dog that you really liked if the only thing you didn't like was that it was still intact?*
> 
> I feel the opposite, if I'm selling or rehoming a dog, I'm not going to alter it. That comes with its own risks and is not cheap. If the new owner wants to, I will not stop them, not even recommend against it, but that's their decision, their risk, their money.


Personally, if the dog was intact, and I would be _required_ to keep the dog intact (breeding contract, for example), then I would not get the dog. However, If I could alter the dog, and it had everything I wanted, except for being altered, I'd get it. THe dog being already altered would be a bonus, though.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

martemchik said:


> No I think what OP brought up was that for some reason to be "responsible" the Schutzhund people make the decision to rehome, and get the dog altered, not realizing that they've just decreased their chances to find this dog a Schutzhund home.
> 
> So say a high level competitor has a dog, it doesn't work out, he wants to rehome, he alters the dog. Now...this would be a great dog for a mid-level competitor, but the mid-level competitor now doesn't want the dog, only because its altered.
> 
> ...


My experience with schutzhund people (and I'm not trying to paint all with the same brush) is that generally speaking, they don't alter them. Period.

So I don't see that as being a problem, because I think even if they look to rehome them, they would likely not alter them. 

And even if they did, using your example -. Why would the mid-level competitor have a problem taking an altered dog that didn't cut it at the higher level? In my opinion, this dog should not be bred anyway.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

blackshep said:


> And even if they did, using your example -. Why would the mid-level competitor have a problem taking an altered dog that didn't cut it at the higher level? In my opinion, this dog should not be bred anyway.


Why not? So unless a dog is going to the world championships it shouldn't be bred? If a dog gets its SchH3 and gets breed surveyed and whatever else is involved in SV style I don't get why you wouldn't breed it. I know that according to some people they think only 3 dogs and 3 bitches a year should be used for breeding so that we only pass on the best traits of the breed, but that's not reality.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Why not? So unless a dog is going to the world championships it shouldn't be bred? If a dog gets its SchH3 and gets breed surveyed and whatever else is involved in SV style I don't get why you wouldn't breed it. I know that according to some people they think only 3 dogs and 3 bitches a year should be used for breeding so that we only pass on the best traits of the breed, but that's not reality.


:thumbup: Plus I'd take some BH or SchH1 dogs over many of the SchH3 dogs I've met, in a heartbeat!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Why not? So unless a dog is going to the world championships it shouldn't be bred? If a dog gets its SchH3 and gets breed surveyed and whatever else is involved in SV style I don't get why you wouldn't breed it. I know that according to some people they think only 3 dogs and 3 bitches a year should be used for breeding so that we only pass on the best traits of the breed, but that's not reality.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying! 

Now to be clear I don't consider a dog who's got Sch3 and breed surveyed to be a mid-level dog. Maybe not world champion, but not mid-level IMO.

That's how it is with horses. Let's use Hanoverian's as an example - they have to pass 30 day/70 day tests, inspected as 2 YO's, 3YO's, 4YO's. It's a very rigorous process and that is why only the best of the best are able to breed. The goal is to improve the breed, not sustain it at it's current level.

Why would you breed a mediocre dog? 

Maybe it's my horse experience that dictates much of how I feel about breeding animals. But I don't see any benefit to breeding mid-level anything.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Maybe you're confused as to what I was referring to. I'm not talking about the animal as the competitor, I'm talking about the human. So a person that wants to title through SchH3 but isn't going to go on to nationals or worlds. Someone that might go to a regional competition, but due to finances or just ambition just isn't going to make it out to the bigger competitions.

These are the types of dogs that ARE being bred in the United States today. There are very few breeders that do national events. Due to time/money/other commitments its crazy to expect only those people that are winning Siegers and World SchH Championships to be breeding their dogs. First, there wouldn't be enough supply for the common man, and second, we'd shrink our genetic diversity even more.

I can't compare horses to dogs. Dogs are an every man pet/animal. Dogs are attainable by many more people than horses. Horses also have higher price tags and their genetic traits are much more valuable. They breed less...there are less of them...its just a much smaller and better regulated market. So as much as I know people love to compare horses to dogs, they are not even close to the same type of mentality.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

martemchik said:


> Maybe you're confused as to what I was referring to. I'm not talking about the animal as the competitor, I'm talking about the human. So a person that wants to title through SchH3 but isn't going to go on to nationals or worlds. Someone that might go to a regional competition, but due to finances or just ambition just isn't going to make it out to the bigger competitions.
> 
> These are the types of dogs that ARE being bred in the United States today. There are very few breeders that do national events. Due to time/money/other commitments its crazy to expect only those people that are winning Siegers and World SchH Championships to be breeding their dogs. First, there wouldn't be enough supply for the common man, and second, we'd shrink our genetic diversity even more.
> 
> I can't compare horses to dogs. Dogs are an every man pet/animal. Dogs are attainable by many more people than horses. Horses also have higher price tags and their genetic traits are much more valuable. They breed less...there are less of them...its just a much smaller and better regulated market. So as much as I know people love to compare horses to dogs, they are not even close to the same type of mentality.


Ok, well we're talking apples to oranges, dogs vs. handlers. I thought you meant a dog that couldn't handle the higher levels, should be bred. 

You're wrong about the horse industry though, there's a huge number of horses breeding, BYB's and it's not always so highly regulated, depending on the breed. But that's why so many horses end up at the knackers, and for dogs, at the pound. 

I just think with breeding any animal, that you should only breeding the best. I do think it should be more limited in what is allowed to breed, that is NOT a bad thing. It doesn't mean it's cut back so much that you lose the genetic diversity, I mean horses aren't all inbred. But it does mean the breed is improving all the time.

That's how I personally think all breeding should be done. There should be a goal and a purpose. Weaknesses should be looked at and bred to improve upon them.

Just my two cents, for what they're worth. About $0.02


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Re-homing, Selling, Adopting... in the end it's all the same. No matter how you call it.


Well no, not exactly. Your thread is supposedly about speutered dogs not having any value, but monetary value is only an issue if you're _selling_ your dog. It's irrelevant if no money changes hands. My point was that if I had to rehome my dogs I wouldn't be concerned with their "value" because I wouldn't be asking for any money for them. My only concern would be finding them a good home, with someone I knew would love and care for them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You're wrong about the horse industry though, there's a huge number of horses breeding, BYB's and it's not always so highly regulated, depending on the breed. But that's why so many horses end up at the knackers, and for dogs, at the pound.


I was going to say...!
I know of a woman in the next town over, breeding horses up the ying yang just because she can. Minis, etc. they are all bred/overbred.
Sadly they end up at auctions and being sold by the pound for meat.
The horse overpopulation situation is humongous because everyone can and does breed them just because they can.
And there's even fewer good homes for them and with the cost of hay, many people drive them to the mountains and turn them loose.
It's horrendous, just as much or moreso than dog/cat overpopulation.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

blackshep said:


> Why would you breed a mediocre dog?
> 
> But I don't see any benefit to breeding mid-level anything.


Mediocre to who? As compared to what? I've seen a SchH3 national level dog that would *not* engage in protection when someone did a direct attack wearing a bite suit. I have a SchH1 dog that will never see a national championship but would *never* turn his back on a direct threat and fail to engage. The top level SchH dogs are just that, top level SchH dogs. If that's what you want, that's what you buy and breed. Everyone has a different idea of what dog is the "best". To me the "best" dog is a calm house pet that is safe around people he knows but fully able to step up and protect himself, his owners, and his property without being conditioned to do so or cue on equipment. The "best" dog can earn SchH titles because the instincts are there and the training is fairly straight forward, but doesn't have to be the world champion. The "best" dog can go from protection work to sleeping on the couch to visiting a classroom of kids. But to someone else the dog is "mediocre" because his SchH scores are mediocre, mid G to low SG.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Mediocre to who? As compared to what? I've seen a SchH3 national level dog that would *not* engage in protection when someone did a direct attack wearing a bite suit. I have a SchH1 dog that will never see a national championship but would *never* turn his back on a direct threat and fail to engage. The top level SchH dogs are just that, top level SchH dogs. If that's what you want, that's what you buy and breed. Everyone has a different idea of what dog is the "best". To me the "best" dog is a calm house pet that is safe around people he knows but fully able to step up and protect himself, his owners, and his property without being conditioned to do so or cue on equipment. The "best" dog can earn SchH titles because the instincts are there and the training is fairly straight forward, but doesn't have to be the world champion. The "best" dog can go from protection work to sleeping on the couch to visiting a classroom of kids. But to someone else the dog is "mediocre" because his SchH scores are mediocre, mid G to low SG.


I guess in the horse world, this is where we'd break things up into different disciplines, and test accordingly  Ha ha


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've been on a horse once in my life so I have trouble evaluating dogs or accepting that a dog's breed-worthiness is called into question based on the horse world...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

blackshep said:


> Ok, well we're talking apples to oranges, dogs vs. handlers. I thought you meant a dog that couldn't handle the higher levels, should be bred.
> 
> You're wrong about the horse industry though, there's a huge number of horses breeding, BYB's and it's not always so highly regulated, depending on the breed. But that's why so many horses end up at the knackers, and for dogs, at the pound.
> 
> ...


I'm not a breeder but what I've learned is it is nowhere near as simple as throwing the (best) together. Champion race horses are famous for not producing champions, with a few exceptions.

You have to consider the pluses and minuses of each individual animal along with their background for generations. It's beyond me but that is the way I understand it. Wish it were simpler. My $0.02.

I'm with Cassidy's Mom on the value issue and where I would want my dogs to go. Loving, caring home. No money involved.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Nope. lets face it. No matter what you're breeding there's a lot of luck too. But you set yourself up for success, as best you can. If you're into schutzhund, you're not really breeding for the pet market. Most of those dogs are too much dog for the average person. 

I'm just saying, if I had an animal who was weak nerved, bad tempered, unsound etc etc, I would not be breeding it just because it had balls.

ETA: the problem with racehorses is that they don't have the same breed inspections, as say the warmbloods and the results speak for themselves.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

blackshep said:


> Nope. lets face it. No matter what you're breeding there's a lot of luck too. But you set yourself up for success, as best you can. If you're into schutzhund, you're not really breeding for the pet market. Most of those dogs are too much dog for the average person.
> 
> 
> Your quote above would be a great topic for another thread. Since Schutzhund folks are miniscule compared to the pet population how many breeders could survive if only a select few could handle their sport dogs?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

blackshep said:


> Nope. lets face it. No matter what you're breeding there's a lot of luck too. But you set yourself up for success, as best you can. If you're into schutzhund, you're not really breeding for the pet market. Most of those dogs are too much dog for the average person.


Big boo boo you just made on this forum...the common belief is that everyone should be purchasing dogs from people that do Schutzhund and use it as a breed test. Since not all of their puppies are "sport" worthy, some should go to pet homes. This is where the general population should get their puppies. And if you can't handle a medium drive dog, don't get a GSD.

^I have learned this from a super long thread when ASL and anything that doesn't resemble a working line was attacked to be a subpar dog and should never be bred just because the market calls for "family friendly" GSDs that don't need to be worked on a daily basis.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Big boo boo you just made on this forum...the common belief is that everyone should be purchasing dogs from people that do Schutzhund and use it as a breed test. Since not all of their puppies are "sport" worthy, some should go to pet homes. This is where the general population should get their puppies. And if you can't handle a medium drive dog, don't get a GSD.
> 
> ^I have learned this from a super long thread when ASL and anything that doesn't resemble a working line was attacked to be a subpar dog and should never be bred just because the market calls for "family friendly" GSDs that don't need to be worked on a daily basis.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think there should be a goal in mind. Sorry folks, that I've derailed this thread somewhat, and this is my last post here, because I think I've said what I wanted to say.

But I think if you're breeding a working line dog (and I've been using Schutz. as an example because that is the direction it seemed to have taken as far as the "value" of the dog decreasing if it's altered)

If you're breeding a working line dog, I still think you have goals in mind. Sound of body and mind. The dogs should be biddable etc.

Of course some dogs in the litter will be harder and some will be softer, but none should be quitters, weak nerved, nervous etc.

This is all I mean by breeding the best to the best. And showline people probably hate the WL conformation and vice versa. So to a certain degree, the dogs are already split into different "discliplines" where people are looking for different qualities in the animals they breed.

A person who wants a couch potato, would not want a GSD. That would not be a good trait in working lines. That is the type of thing I'm talking about. 

I'm sorry I'm using horses as my examples, because that is what I know best, but I think we can all agree tat if you take lesser quality, ill tempered animals and breed them, the odds are not in our favour to get the next world champion. 

So if you own one of those, even if you love them more than life, I think you're doing the breed a favour by removing them from there gene pool, because they are not good examples of the breed.


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