# Off day or not....



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I ask if an off day because I am told this dog has an IPO3.

There was much debate on whether the helper hit the dog on the top of head or not. This video angle clearly shows this was not the case. 

Should it have mattered?

https://www.facebook.com/ultimatek9s/videos/2022172138012541/


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

There are other angles out there. The dog was definitely not hit. And no, it should not have mattered.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We really don't know what may have opened in training previously. The dog is obviously not engaging. Was obviously not hit. We can surmise that it was genetics but truthfully, uNless you know the dog, the pedigree and have seen the training then a person is just blowing smoke.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax what if it is an entire community "blowing smoke".

someone knows .

get a big hat , and tabs with SV decoys from ALL sport and randomly choose 10 possibilities.

put those 10 back in the hat , and choose 3 . Repeat random draw and then select ONE .

that dog gets to have another go - fair as can be -- recorded --- 

this is like finding a jury that hasn't been contaminated but there must be no bias , no accommodation,

there are some serious temperamental problems , dogs that won't , can't protect , have trouble with normal
but chaotic life .

the only way to solve the problem is to get dead sober serious , grab the bull by the horns , burn out the fog of delusion and truly address the problem .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is a 2 year old dog, just turned, put into a situation that he was either not ready for OR genetically can't deal with. I watched the entire video of the routine, not just the "courage" test, and IMO it is the latter. The fact that they tried to blame it on the helper tells me they knew going into this show that this could happen.

IF this whole scenario wasn't so darn common in the WGSL I would give the dog the benefit of the doubt. Even my friends with show lines shook their heads in disgust.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you are a premium member of workingdogs.eu you can watch many of the routines from the 2017 BSZS (German Sieger show). Just click on their ratings if it shows up red.

This is the "working" class males (so "titled", surveyed)
https://www.working-dog.com/results/SV-Bundessiegerzuchtshow-BSZS-2017---GHKLR-21152435


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Seems there are some questionable dogs. Look at the grip


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@carmspack I'm not disagreeing. All I'm saying is without some knowledge, as I stated above, most people aren't going to be able to answer that question. The dog was clearly in avoidance. Is it genetics? Is it a recent blast from a collar T just the wrong Time? I'd go with genetics based on history but that's only my opinion in a cloud of smoke.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> Seems there are some questionable dogs. Look at the grip
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYWseObeB8s&feature=youtu.be



Yikes! 

I usually only watch bite videos of IPO, FR, & KNPV dogs, typically the studs really getting after the helper. That was like watching a middle school basketball game when I usually watch the NBA. 

Shallow, weak, chewy, can't wait to let go. Tough to watch.

At least the handler was..... erm...... she had good structure :wink2:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> This is a 2 year old dog, just turned, put into a situation that he was either not ready for OR genetically can't deal with. I watched the entire video of the routine, not just the "courage" test, and IMO it is the latter. The fact that they tried to blame it on the helper tells me they knew going into this show that this could happen.
> 
> IF this whole scenario wasn't so darn common in the WGSL I would give the dog the benefit of the doubt. Even my friends with show lines shook their heads in disgust.


does this dog not have an IPO 3 -- then how did he get that far?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Tennessee said:


> Yikes!
> 
> I usually only watch bite videos of IPO, FR, & KNPV dogs, typically the studs really getting after the helper. That was like watching a middle school basketball game when I usually watch the NBA.
> 
> ...


why in the world was there applause and whistling with this very poor - oh wait not VA but VB for very bad performance -- and it is a performance - dog doesn't have a clue as to why it is there and the decoy is very soft with the dog to boot


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Tennessee said:


> At least the handler was..... erm...... she had good structure :wink2:


How very inappropriate for a family friendly dog forum... 

Regardless of the opinions of the skill of dog and the handler, competing at that level takes a lot of hard work and dedication. How lovely that after all the blood, sweat and tears her merit is reduced to being a piece of eye candy...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> Seems there are some questionable dogs. Look at the grip
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rYWseObeB8s&feature=youtu.be


Clearly some DDR blood in there. You're just comparing him to the newer, play version that scores well now. You don't teach an out-platz for looks. You need that kind of control with those old style beasts!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> does this dog not have an IPO 3 -- then how did he get that far?


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ or familiar field with his friend the helper or ???? IPO3 means different things in the high line world than it does to the rest of us (or those that actually want their show lines to be able to work).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something to remember, the performance test has NO bearing on the results of the Sieger show as long as the dog gets "pronounced" (which means puts its teeth on the sleeve and doesn't run away) and outs. How they do things, true strength of character, fighting drive, strong guarding, etc means absolutely NOTHING. It is a beauty contest not a whole lot different from the AKC conformation ring. It is also VERY VERY political. The German Sieger show was supposed to show case the best of the best. It is now just a farce. Very sad for those of us that love the GSD.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

maybe they should just do away with the bitework with the Sieger shows. If the top rated dog bites like that, what is the point of even going through the motions. Or should I have said gripwork?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Clearly some DDR blood in there. You're just comparing him to the newer, play version that scores well now. You don't teach an out-platz for looks. You need that kind of control with those old style beasts!


what in the world are you talking about ?

the dog in the video is VA 1 Gary Hunhegrab 

there is zero , zippo , DDR blood !! 

decades of WGSL's without interruption 

here is his pdb pedigree 

Gary vom Hühnegrab


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Something to remember, the performance test has NO bearing on the results of the Sieger show as long as the dog gets "pronounced" (which means puts its teeth on the sleeve and doesn't run away) and outs. How they do things, true strength of character, fighting drive, strong guarding, etc means absolutely NOTHING. It is a beauty contest not a whole lot different from the AKC conformation ring. It is also VERY VERY political. The German Sieger show was supposed to show case the best of the best. It is now just a farce. Very sad for those of us that love the GSD.


It is so wrong . 

this dog will now be promoted as the best in the world , the super elite of the breed and he will be bred to the maximum allowable because of the prestige that some need (bragging rights)
to own such a special dog . (not)

this is a cynical manipulation which puts "GSD" into the hands of those that expect hallmark traits of character and courage which the poor dog can not possibly deliver --- and to add to this you have a known , documented problem of spinal stenosis -- another denial .

2014 temperament and spinal stenosis - 

- http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...eos/440833-video-german-tv-subject-breed.html



$$$$$$$$$ for sure.

this is a totally different standard . Different structure , different character , different breed.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> what in the world are you talking about ?
> 
> the dog in the video is VA 1 Gary Hunhegrab
> 
> ...


I believe it was tongue in cheek


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> It is so wrong .
> 
> this dog will now be promoted as the best in the world , the super elite of the breed and he will be bred to the maximum allowable because of the prestige that some need (bragging rights)
> to own such a special dog . (not)
> ...


This is so far from what the breed should be


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Shallow, chewy grips, little hint of avoidance. Just made me think of the best dog ever from East Germany. I didn't look at the pedigree, but who knows. Maybe Gary's got lots of hunt drive.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> How very inappropriate for a family friendly dog forum...
> 
> Regardless of the opinions of the skill of dog and the handler, competing at that level takes a lot of hard work and dedication. How lovely that after all the blood, sweat and tears her merit is reduced to being a piece of eye candy...


That was pretty PG :|

I train IPO, I'm well acquainted with the hard work and dedication it takes. 

If that was my dog I'd be embarrassed that was all my blood sweat and tears could muster. What exactly in that video am I supposed to congratulate her for? 

Serious question.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

carmspack said:


> why in the world was there applause and whistling with this very poor - oh wait not VA but VB for very bad performance -- and it is a performance - dog doesn't have a clue as to why it is there and the decoy is very soft with the dog to boot


I guess it's a big deal that the dog will bite at all?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Tennessee said:


> That was pretty PG :|
> 
> I train IPO, I'm well acquainted with the hard work and dedication it takes.
> 
> ...


I'll say this. For her to get her dog to do that, some serious work went into that. He did not want to be on that sleeve.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> I'll say this. For her to get her dog to do that, some serious work went into that. He did not want to be on that sleeve.


Good point


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> *what in the world are you talking about* ?
> 
> the dog in the video is VA 1 Gary Hunhegrab
> 
> ...


Good Lord, or maybe not good lord depending on your perception.:wink2:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Tennessee said:


> That was pretty PG :|


Sexual objectification doesn't need to be vulgar to be inappropriate.



> I train IPO, I'm well acquainted with the hard work and dedication it takes.
> 
> If that was my dog I'd be embarrassed that was all my blood sweat and tears could muster. What exactly in that video am I supposed to congratulate her for?
> 
> Serious question.


You don't have to congratulate her on anything. You can think her and her dog suck. That's fine. My point wasn't that this handler needs to be lavished with praise.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Good Lord, or maybe not good lord depending on your perception.:wink2:


Lol.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Sexual objectification doesn't need to be vulgar to be inappropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have to congratulate her on anything. You can think her and her dog suck. That's fine. My point wasn't that this handler needs to be lavished with praise.


This isn't the place for a back and forth especially when politics are involved, so I'll just be straightforward. 

I'm not actually a sexist and even if I was I don't think a flippant comment that was essentially saying well at least the handler is attractive in the latest proof of the absolutely nauseating embarrassment that SV has become, is enough to brand me as one. 

I was being macabre about the competition, not trying to objectify women. IE that's pretty sad the only nice thing I could think to say about what's supposed to be one of the pinnacles of the dog world is a comment on a handlers looks. 

I assumed (incorrectly) that would be understood on a GSD forum, in a bash thread on the abysmal temperaments of SV dogs.

I am sorry if I offended you though :frown2:


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> This isn't the place for a back and forth especially when politics are involved, so I'll just be straightforward.
> 
> I'm not actually a sexist and even if I was I don't think a flippant comment that was essentially saying well at least the handler is attractive in the latest proof of the absolutely nauseating embarrassment that SV has become, is enough to brand me as one.
> 
> ...


The best way to discuss and critique *dogs* is to discuss and critique *dogs*.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Tennessee said:


> This isn't the place for a back and forth especially when politics are involved, so I'll just be straightforward.
> 
> I'm not actually a sexist and even if I was I don't think a flippant comment that was essentially saying well at least the handler is attractive in the latest proof of the absolutely nauseating embarrassment that SV has become, is enough to brand me as one.
> 
> ...


The funny thing is, sometimes we do things even when we are not TRYING to do them. 

I'm not trying to imply your are an "ist" of any kind. The only reason I came to this thread was because another member sent me the link to your comment and expressed how upset it made them. Not cool that non dog related comments are keeping people from posting on a thread in a dog forum. It may seem innocent to you and even like you are paying a compliment, but comments like that can be incredibly hurtful. :frown2:

Sometimes I would like to post videos of me working my dogs so I can get feedback from a bigger community. Stuff like THIS keeps me from doing it. 

That said, I completely agree with you that dog had no business on the field with a sleeve. I have no love for the SV.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Tennessee said:


> This isn't the place for a back and forth especially when politics are involved, so I'll just be straightforward.
> 
> I'm not actually a sexist and even if I was I don't think a flippant comment that was essentially saying well at least the handler is attractive in the latest proof of the absolutely nauseating embarrassment that SV has become, is enough to brand me as one.
> 
> ...


I see gaslighting is alive and well. "You're overreacting. I'm not objectifying anything. I was just kidding; I thought you would know what I meant." I'm not buying it. Most of my dog venues are very woman-friendly, but my experience out in the world has been that there's a ton of misogyny, ranging from basically getting points for hotness based on my dog on up to comments like yours on this thread and beyond to blatant objectification of female handlers both in person and online. The problem with most of it is that it's insidious and it's easy for people to tell others that they're overreacting. Like you're doing right now.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Wow.

Ya'll have fun determining exactly how much of a woman hating piece of garbage I am, I'm out. 

Voodoo tell whomever told you they were offended I'm sorry about that.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Hmm.. As a woman handler and one who played ice hockey on a male team as an adult, I've heard most if not all of the obscene and sexist remarks, often made in jest but rude nonetheless.. In this matter, I don't know, it didn't strike me as over the top... Maybe I've just learned to tune certain comments out and not take them personally.. 

Reality is, Tennessee, I don't believe you are sexist or meant any harm, unfortunately, text doesn't read intent and there are those who have been seriously harmed by misguided comments and that can make one more sensitive. I guess the takeaway is we all be careful on comments that can objectify a human, even in a non threatening way.. 

As to the sad state of the SV and the dogs picked.. Ugh.. And WOW! Makes me glad SAR requires us to PROVE our dogs, constantly. And my great respect for those doing IPO and the like that push through the bias and monetary political leniency for such dogs and handler's that are unworthy of their titles.. For improving the breed and dedicating yourselves to proving the GSD is the most awesome dog out there!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Tennessee said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't the place for a back and forth especially when politics are involved, so I'll just be straightforward.
> ...


 We have a female judge for our trial in a couple weeks. I'll have to be sure to do do my workouts between now and then. Maybe some good looks will get this first time male IPO handler some slack. LOL


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*OK, enough of the off topic discussion. Anymore and some people will get time outs.* 

ADMIN Lisa


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lhczth said:


> If you are a premium member of workingdogs.eu you can watch many of the routines from the 2017 BSZS (German Sieger show). Just click on their ratings if it shows up red.
> 
> This is the "working" class males (so "titled", surveyed)
> https://www.working-dog.com/results/SV-Bundessiegerzuchtshow-BSZS-2017---GHKLR-21152435


Did you watch any more? Were there other wgsl that were as weak nerved? 

It's sad that this is a representation of the breed as a whole. Dogs carried to titles


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> Did you watch any more? Were there other wgsl that were as weak nerved?
> 
> It's sad that this is a representation of the breed as a whole. Dogs carried to titles


You know Cloud, dogs of every breed are carried to titles in every single venue or work they're involved in. Its a people thing. My older dog, sired by a 2 time No.Am Sch 3 champion who's dam is an IPO3 Tiekerhook retired with only obedience titles. He ran from the helper. Poor nerves cross all the lines.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> You know Cloud, dogs of every breed are carried to titles in every single venue or work they're involved in. Its a people thing. My older dog, sired by a 2 time No.Am Sch 3 champion who's dam is an IPO3 Tiekerhook retired with only obedience titles. He ran from the helper. Poor nerves cross all the lines.


Oops, didn't mean it as a slam on wgsl. Just was thinking it was a large stage and that's what was being shown. I know there are weak nerved dogs across the board (all breeds) that are carried. If it was another large venue, I'd feel the same way


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I wonder if showlines enthusiasts hang around bashing working lines?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I wonder if showlines enthusiasts hang around bashing working lines?



Yes they do. I was at a show once with a KKL1 IPO3 male who they kept talking crap about. How he doesn't have enough angulation. He'd never be able to work because of blah blah blah and so on. It goes both directions. 

Now we also have so many different venues that everyone feels the need to talk about how venue "X" is so much better and tests dogs blah blah, as well. I've learned in the dog world, best to keep my head down, focus on my goals and what I believe to be correct. Try and stay open minded, and just do my own thing. You'll never please everyone.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Ha - I was at an akc herding event years and years ago and the Am lined American gsd breeders bashed my german showlines!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Byb dogs catch a little flack every now and then.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I wonder if showlines enthusiasts hang around bashing working lines?


People say a lot of things, that's why my wife quit going with me to dog shows. I just laugh, but I'm not sure I'm supposed to say that.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Seriously? Both sides bash. So let's drop it. It's not productive.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes it's not productive. True bad nerves cross all the lines but some people prefer to put up videos of weaker nerved showlines.'I just feel if one does that- they also have to discuss the issues of their own line. 
Yeah angles- don't think that is the only thing being said about working lines lol but suit yourself! I do find it funny at first quite sad -though all the unproductive bashing and spinning of wheels like a hamster in a cage. It is easy to see why all the lines have issues.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I wonder if showlines enthusiasts hang around bashing working lines?


Yes -- and it is institutional .

The SV as an organization will exploit the past and current "legendary" accomplishments , provide little clips of some heroics in their promotional material to their advantage .

At the same time , as an organization , they use the BSZS as the premier show - an annual glamorous world-event as a market-showcase .

The BSP gets little SV attention -- the Police Dog trials even less . 
At one time they shared the dates and facilities and the crowd . 

This is not bashing a show line dog that had an off day , or was a club dog being trained as a past time and an outlet for the dog's energy . No big consequences either way.

The dog being discussed in the SIEGER . 2017 . IT MATTERS .

There are consequences because he will be generating a lot of stud services because of the status of being the #1 GSD for that year .

This will influence this division of the breed for generations . 

How do you improve.

Top lines are still roached. What is going on with all the pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey dead tails?

The Sieger is supposed to be the best of the bunch . 






3 distinct breeds

wgsl -- "The Martin Dog"

american show lines -- "The Moses Dog"

working line - don't have a name for that yet. GSD?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Yes -- and it is institutional .
> 
> The SV as an organization will exploit the past and current "legendary" accomplishments , provide little clips of some heroics in their promotional material to their advantage .
> 
> ...


The divide is huge, 3 different breeds for sure. As Steve mentioned earlier, there is a people problem, the people at the helm and those who support this. I'm married to someone who loves her black and red Martin dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Look at the #2 dog. He looks pretty good. The helper even bails on his courage test and he still gets a firm bite.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

totally agree - plus the dog has a nice ZW number (72) 

could be a interesting if someone planned to improve workability --- the dog does have show lines developed by French breeders and some ring training and trialing 

it is all about selection


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's what Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook kennel (a kennel in Holland known for very good working dogs) had to say about the courage test at the Sieger show. This goes back to 2010, and obviously nothing has changed in the years since then.



> Friday evening, after the courage test at the “Hauptzuchtschau” in Ulm was over I got an alarmed phone call from a sport friend who was there and told me that many of the SchH 2 and even more of the SchH 3 dogs did not pass protection.
> 
> Sunday evening I calculated that 63 males and 49 females failed. Furthermore, we are talking about exclusively KKL 1 dogs here who had received the rating of “TSB pronounced” in their ZtP/Körung.
> 
> ...


The article is obviously translated from Dutch. What he's trying to say in the last paragraph is that nothing is ever going to change as long as the SV is just policing itself (judging one's own affairs). It will take pressure from the outside to bring change, and not enough people really seem to care. These black and red dogs have a lot of fans$$$.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It helps to read the whole article by Koos to understand the development of the German show line dogs, and how this situation evolved. There was a lot of very intensive inbreeding when they began to split off from the rest of the breed, and, of course, politics were very much involved too:

https://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.html

Edit: here is the link to all 3 parts of the article. The above link only goes to part 1.

https://www.prlog.org/news/tag/tiekerhook/#


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am one who can appreciate and will recognize a good GSD, no matter the lines. I just find it sad that at the most prestigious event in the world of GSD, the event that is supposed to showcase the best of the best, how a dog "performs" doesn't matter. It used to. If the performance test mattered, things could improve. The VA3 dog is supposed to be a very good dog and his performance was good.

Having trained with and seen some really nervy junk out of Tiekerhook he isn't always the best source of information.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Having trained with and seen some really nervy junk out of Tiekerhook he isn't always the best source of information.


People have said my dog could have used a few more leaves on the branches, Lol. Good family dog though.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Having trained with and seen some really nervy junk out of Tiekerhook he isn't always the best source of information.


The fact his kennel has produced some nervy dogs doesn't change the situation with the SV, though. I think his assessment of the situation is pretty accurate. :frown2:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

True, but when you have heard other ravings from a particular person, you tend to ignore what they say even if it is the truth.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ah, now I understand. He's probably still angry that he was once told by the president of the SV that one of his sable dogs would never get a VA placing, not as long as he was president of the SV.

Can't say I blame him. Narrowing the gene pool the way the SV has done is not a good thing.


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