# Chiropractic safety and spondylosis



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am going to watch that Webinar on Pain Management next week (I hope) and am wondering if they will address this. 

Anyway, Kramer is fused way up the spine (about 2/3 I would guess), but yesterday the vet pulled his tail up and he seemed a little looser after that (plus he got his Adequan shot) and I was wondering-if chiropractic would be safe for him. Nina, too-hers is less but she has arthritis in the hip and knee. I know my own chiro is very careful with certain things and will refuse some conditions...but I have no idea if this is something that another chiro would do.


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## 3K9Mom

Am interested in this. Since WDJ wrote up chiropractic care this month, I'm thinking Zamboni might benefit from it. I have the name of someone who is supposed to be "The Best..." But still, I worry...


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## debbiebrown

i have been apprehensive on chiro for some issues. although i think it makes a huge difference on who you take them to for the adjustments, preferably a vet that has a degree in chiro, and not a certificate on a few weekend seminars. because spondylosis also involves hidden issues like nerves, etc. you really don't know the extent of the problem. so, yes, sometimes chiro can definitely help, somtimes with disc issues it can make things worse. so, its a crap shoot like anything else at this stage of the game. the only way you'd know for sure how and what to treat, you would have to have a mylagram to see what everything is doing first. any who is going to put a senior through that. i think acupuncture is very effective on spondulosis or any spinal problem that involves impingements from fusing because it opens up the pathways.

you don't know till ya try, and with the seniors the alterntives are the best resources we have,.









debbie


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## LisaT

I definitely agree on going to someone (vet or chiro) that has gone through the AVCA training, and not the weekend seminar types. I want someone that knows what they are doing, and that's what the AVCA training does -- it's very extensive.

I was terrified when I first took Indy about 7 years ago. But I had run out of options for her. And it has been a consistent life saver. I was fortunate because it was a vet that knew Indy well, and knew the chiro, and knew that they would be a good mix. I trust our K9 chiro completely. I know that whatever the situation, she would use the right judgement on how to treat, or whether to treat at all. I wish there was some guarantee that they all were like that.

My 83 y.o. mom has severe spondylosis and the chiro helps her tremendously. If the spine is impinging on a nerve, there's really not much, outside of chiropractic care, that can help relieve that (including most drugs). Most importantly, for Mom, is that it helps prevent things from getting worse. 

There are several reasons to see a chiro. One is the obvious "out of adjustment" and to realign the vertebrae. However, they also mobilize the joints by gentle manipulation; this is big for Max, who is often not "out", but his spine gets jammed up and doesn't move. Another important reason to see a chiro is that although sometimes they can't "fix" anything, they can help maintain whatever mobility is left so that things don't get worse. When joints stop moving, they start calcifying and further fusion (and thus nerve damage) takes place. "In theory", regular chiro care can help prevent this from happening.


As with anything, as debbie knows from experience, even the best intentions can go wrong. I've never had it happen with my dogs, but it is always a possibility when *anyone* works on your dog.


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## debbiebrown

i do agree with Lisa, in that if the spine is out of line, an adjustment can help the spinal area run smoother and function better.
as long as its done properly.

debbie


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## srfd44-2

Chiropractic will help both human and animal both. Have been using it on my animals for the last 7 years and on myself for the last 5 years. Besides getting a shepherd it was the next best decision in my life !


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

What about acupuncture instead? Same benefits? 

I look at that spinal x-ray and get the willies...


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## LisaT

No, not the same benefits. Sometimes you can one or the other, but the chiro will help prevent or slow increased degradation or fusion much more efficiently.

Max gets both and they work well together. He gets adjusted more frequently than needled. Indy gets the chiro only, but I do her bodywork at home -- she can't tolerate needles.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

MONTHS later...

I found a vet (that Kramer's vet told me about) that does both acupuncture and chiropractic and is on both websites as being certified. I think. It's about 40 minutes away, so I am thinking I could only take Kramer, and Nina would have to go another time because both don't really fit well in the back seat together and that's a long ride for one to ride in the front. (the other dogs can fit-but these two can't bend and flex like the others)

I am still really concerned about "breaking" him. I saw that Zamboni was snap crackle and popped-very neat! I am going to ask the vet about this tomorrow at Kramer's adequan appt. If I do go, maybe I'll take his x-rays with him so I feel better. And I feel like if I am not comfortable with the chiro adjustment I can just skip to acupuncture. 

I've noticed Kramer's gotten kind of stuck in a stand as his front legs moved forward (well, I guess he moved them forward) and his hind legs kind of didn't move as far, and he looked like a Morgan Horse in a "stacked" position. Which would be great if he were a Morgan Horse...but he's not.









So I'd like to make sure his front legs work well and try to get everything a little looser and better for him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Talked to his vet today and then called a couple of places for acupuncture only. One was definitely less money (by like half), the vet is certified and it's more of a country practice, which is better for Kramer-he gets so nervous, so a low key, not as vet smelly place could help. And they said we try it for 3-5 and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Treatments were spaced out a little more, too-not weekly (I think every other?), which helps with gas/time. 

I figure if we can just maintain what we have and get a little improvement in terms of being looser, I'd be happy. So we go next Tuesday at 2 with his x-rays and they are faxing his records from the last two years (I thought-how many pages are there in a 15 yo dog's records-it would be like sending them John McCain's







)


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## middleofnowhere

accupuncture may help some but honestly, chiropractic really helps my old girl with back problems a lot more.


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## arycrest

I've only tried accupuncture three times on the Hooligns. The first two dogs were Niki and JR. I can't recall how many appointments each of these two boys had, it was few, but it didn't seem to work with either of them. Ringer's Bowen Therapist used the electrical stimulation accupuncture on him once and I noticed a positive change in him, BUT he didn't like it and the next time she tried it he misbehaved so badly she had to stop the procedure (he kept messing the electrical wires up).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Yeah-I have used chiropractic for me, but his spine is like one big lump-I just cannot get over the fear of breaking him. This guy COULD do it-he's also registered (or whatever) as a chiropractor vet, too, but...gah! If there's something he can do in an area that is not so vulnerable, maybe. So it's definitely one of those things that I would do, but have an aversion to. 

Bruno had acupuncture for stress/behavioral reasons and it worked really well for him. He also was Reiki'd once and fell over-so Bruno is an Eastern kind of guy.









Actually, I am going to have Kramer Reiki'd again-we do it remotely and it seems to help (we share a session).

Today after his Adequan shot he ran around a bit chasing everyone, but was a little wobbly tonight when he got up for some water. Of course, he may have a flask hidden somewhere...
















Ringer...awww...he was bad...so sweet.


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## LisaT

Jean, I do understand your concern. 

Adjusting a dog is different than the way most humans get adjusted. They are gentle nudges, and not the violent movements that humans are subjected to sometimes. I know that in the places where Max gets "stuck", the chiro gently mobilizes. I don't know if that makes you feel any better?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Really? Hmmm...I might consider it. I know I have gotten wrenched around like a ragdoll (but love that POP!). I'll see how comfortable I feel with this vet, too, I just have this terribly irrational fear about breaking Kramer. This vet does both chiropractic and acupuncture.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Sooooo...a little story-I left on time (which is good for me) with my directions and a shortcut. When I got to the end of my shortcut, there was a road closed sign-my shortcut was a secondary road and no warning! ACK! Lost 15 minutes backtracking-and could not figure out where the detour was taking me! Finally got to the part where Mapquest picked up and as I am driving these roads notice that they are not marked, and when they are, they do not match mapquest. So after many wrong turns and Kramer thinking he might need to puke (we stopped-he got out and wandered a bit) we showed up 30 minutes late, but the tech and vet were very nice about it. Thankfully! Kind of funny now...then I was cursing mapquest, the DOT, and all their future generations...

Anyway, the tech was great. He explained what was going to happen and talked to me about the chiropractic device that the vet used. It was like a little hole punch kind of thing (not really-but it kind of made that noise) like a stamp type of thing. I decided to go along with it because it was so mild-and because he explained where Kramer's spine is fused and how his neck was in a spasm of some sort (?). So he stamped that thing (on his thumb, on Kramer) all up and down and all over, then used these spiked (nubbed?) magnetic balls all over him. Kramer then proceeded to go under the bench to get a treat that had fallen on the floor.







So that little bit seemed to help. 

Then he put the needles in-all over-Kramer scraped the one on his head off on my knee. Goof! The vet said he's a little more active than most 15 year olds...which of course made my day (and Kramer's). Of course Kramer did not stand still, did not act relaxed, or anything I was expecting to see. But that was okay. THEN, the vet pulls out these boxes-he did that light therapy stuff (?) with him-red light. Very neat-whatever it was! Psychedelic at the very least. The vet was great. He asked Kramer (his bloat x-ray was with the others that we brought from the vet) how are you still alive? And Kramer just smiled. 

So we finished up. I told him that Kramer jumps in the car on his own still and he asked that he not do that so I used Nina's harness on him (I brought it in case he broke Kramer). He also told me to have Kramer pee, that he would have to, and I thought







whatever, but yes, Kramer did pee, which is unusual in strange places. 

He's to be quiet for 24 hours. We go back next week. He's sleeping now. 

He was able to sit in the car instead of stand (or lay down-but he can't lay down and backseat drive at the same time-so he stands) on the ride home which was an immediate improvement. He would have fallen asleep I think, but again, he has to drive, dammit! 

I just want his legs not to slip, get a little looseness and flexibility back if possible, and allow him to lay down more easily. Not marathons! Just maintain what we have with a little extra. 

Already, he was able to pick a treat up off the floor without working to get it-that was huge-his neck is longer! 

Meanwhile, I am all tensed up still from driving for about 2.5 hours







where's my acupuncture?!?!


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## BowWowMeow

Did you take your RR?

That's great, Jean! Where did you take him? I will have to ask if I can find chiropractic around here. 

The homeopath that I used to go to did a little chiro but I wonder if there is anyone specializing it around here. 

As for your driving adventures--I tensed up just reading about it. That's just the sort of thing that happens to me every time I take these animals to some special vet.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

YIKES! Lightening here so I had better go-I will PM you the vet tomorrow. I have no idea where I was...


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## LJsMom

Jean, do you think these treatments would work on a senior GSD that has to be muzzled at the vet?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think it would depend on the vet doing the stuff maybe? I would guess that most doctors doing these types of things are good at managing behavior and working around nervous dogs? That's what I was thinking. Kramer was moving around and didn't snap at the vet-which he will if he feels he's being pushed. The chiropractic part went so quickly. 

I actually asked the receptionist this when I called-how do they deal with fearful/nervous dogs and aggression and they were very blase about it...oh, we get that all the time, they're all like that, we don't really even think about it. 

Oh-he's pretty perky this morning. Maybe a little sore, but he wanted to go out in the back with the other dogs to show off a little, I think. He ran to the front door to go potty that way (less steps and no running as he's on leash). So the 24 hours of restriction is working.


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## LJsMom

Thanks Jean. I'll make some calls today.


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## arycrest

What great news HRH did so well. I wonder if a chiropractor could help with Honey's Cauda Equina??? So far I'm still out with the PT she's taking, IMHO Bowen Massage might have been more helpful, but her PT is building her up slowly so I'm really not sure since I'm the type of person who wants to see IMMEDIATE results.


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## BowWowMeow

If you can find a good chiropractor it can make all of the difference in the world! I can do minor adjustments on myself now and wow, what a relief! 

I am going to see if I can take Chama to the same clinic that Jean is going to. I have heard really good things about them.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN.....t so I used Nina's harness on him (I brought it in case he broke Kramer).....


























The whole story was pretty funny, including your nervousness, and Kramer's activity.

The adjustments, the light, the needles, all give weird energetic feelings. I can see how, particularly the first time, it might be a bit strange. 

Very cool that you have an "all-in-one" vet like that. I sure hope that all that worrying and angst to do this pays off in the long run. Great job Kramer


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomJean, do you think these treatments would work on a senior GSD that has to be muzzled at the vet?


My understanding is that they soon learn why they are there, and what the drill is. If it makes him/her feel better, then I think they quickly cooperate. With the chiropractor, I always have to bring ample treats because my girl has *pain* (though the GSD doesn't). With the GSD, I don't need the treats -- she can do anything to him, and he is so happy and bouncy to be there, and barks at everything from the car on the drive there because he is so excited. For my girl, when she is ready to be adjusted, she looks at me and tells me she is ready for the treats to begin, and then she lets the chiro do anything. Mind you, it's not the adjustment that hurts, it's because she has a neurological condition and often just touching her hurts.

I went to one acupuncturist and the chiro they had there put a muzzle on every dog until he knew the dog.


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## LJsMom

I called the place near me - Wolf Rock - the receptionist put us on their "wait list". Its $185 for the first hour-long visit and then $100 a week. They also do chiro there.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

ZOWIE! Those prices AND a wait list. About how long before you might get in? The official websites list other practioners-I am sure you already looked at those though. 

Yeah, I think I got a little of that red light stuff...







Next week we go again and I am thinking I might freeze some coconut oil in a cone type thing and let him lick that (if he will) while the acupuncture is happening. 

He just went to lay down and was slightly smoother than he has been. 

However, his appetite has been off-any thoughts on that??? I am a little worried-it's been normal (strong-normal) and his tummy seems a little upset. Slightly mooshier poop. 

It may also be me adding some extra stuff (VetriDisc) and that could be doing it...he is pretty sure I am trying to poison him. I am going to try it without tonight. He refused his pumpkin and probiotic snack. But he did eat a nice helping of chicken this morning.









I think he MIGHT be A. tired from the big adventure B. Waiting for something better to arrive in his plate C. something else related to the treatment?

I swear Nina would hit him with a frying pan if she could. She eats like a trooper and watches him after she's done like he's teasing her.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Here is Kramer's pinhead-taken with my phone-that's the one he scraped off after the vet left the room:









And yes, he should be restrained in the car, but he is my back seat driver and so happy to do so-I think I drive more slowly when he's with me! And awayyyyyyyyy we go-after our visit!


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## LJsMom

Kramer is so cute!

I did more searching. Compared names on the AVCA and AAVA websites. We now have an appointment (the next available by the way) the end of September with Dr. Sharon Doolittle. She is AVCA certified but also does acupuncture. 

The first appointment is an hour long and costs $160. All other appointments are 30 minutes/$85.

At the first appointment she goes over everything the dog takes in. I have to bring ALL Lady Jane's supplements, food, etc. She will make recommendations as to food and supplements. Although with LJ's allergies, she can only eat 2 kinds of kibbles which only leaves raw and - sorry - but I just can't do it. I get woozy touching raw chicken.

We are on a cancelation list.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks-his nose isn't really that long-it looks very long to me! 

Wow-these doctors are really busy with this stuff! Sounds very comprehensive. I hope LJ has great results. 

I also get woozy with raw chicken. I parboil it so I can work with it!







Any raw meat really, I have to go to my "special place" to deal with it.









I really wish I could get some other pills into Kramer to help out but not going to happen at this point-even tramadol, which I think is a great thing for the discomfort...tiny pill, he could poison test for a king. Wait, he is a king! IF I needed to I would shove it in. 

He's eating a little better now-I think it was the Vetridisc.







More for Nina! 

Hey-I can take a picture of his bloat x-ray before I take it back! 

Here is a picture I took of him this morning during his pee walk. He likes to find where Jaeger goes and cover it. But here is the big news-his tail-which used to curl over his back a lot of the time-is coming up!









He also is not sliding as much and seems to be able to get up better. Still cranky...but I am thinking that after 15 years...that's not going to change.


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## LJsMom

Jean, have you tried mixing Kramer's meds in with canned Tripe?


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## kelso

tripe might work!

i was just kindof laughing though as, Jean, you said that you have to go to your 
"special place" with the raw chicken thing.
I don't mind the raw chicken, but holy moly, tripe kills me. So good luck with that! if you try it. The dogs do seem to love it though

I have to tie a hand towel around my head over my face to serve it. I really need to invest in some surgical masks 

Kramer looks great by the way!! Glad to hear he is doing well


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ooooh....I don't think tripe is going to happen. For right now, we'll go drug free I guess.







I would love to be able to use it, but it's just too close to the puke zone for me.









Thanks, Kramer is really chugging along-I have seen some positives and one weird thing (that I am sure everyone will say of course!) regarding his barking. It's louder. Yay?


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN....Thanks, Kramer is really chugging along-I have seen some positives and one weird thing (that I am sure everyone will say of course!) regarding his barking. It's louder. Yay?


That's definitely a positive!!


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## BowWowMeow

Glad to hear that Kramer is moving better...not sure about the louder bark though?









I use regular wet food to hide pills in and also the preprepared raw food. Chama is such a piggy that she snarfs it up without noticing what's in it. 

And I agree that tripe is beyond disgusting.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That's definitely a positive for you LisaT across the country!









But yeah, it is good, I think, really. 

I wish Kramer would take pills like a piggy. I do the three treat monte thing, and that sometimes works. I can't overuse any one thing or he catches on and refuses it-even crazy good things like baby food, meats, etc. 

I decided to freeze some coconut oil and peanut butter to take to his appt. tomorrow and wanted to see if he'd even try it-so I put it in front of him. 

Head tilts. Head pulls back. Big eyes stare up at me-trying to determine my intentions. I stick it back under his nose. He pulls back in disgust. I pull it back and say "that's fine..." (the old reverse psychology-who says I am not smarter than my dog). Put it in front of him again. Looks at me again. Sniffs-finally. Looks at me again. Sniffs again. Takes a lick-oooh! Not ice cream, but not bad! Tries to take the cup from me-get the heck out of here woman! I'll take it from here! 

Meanwhile, the other dogs are dancing around saying pick me! I'll try it! Poor things. 

PS-I think PEOPLE around here eat tripe.


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## kelso

I think it is a positive with the louder bark! Go Kramer!

It seems he is just to smart about the pill taking thing..he really investigates doesn't he?







What about the almighty Arby's...or would that be bad and make him not like Arby's...???

I had to laugh at the mental image of the other dogs saying "pick me!"

Oh, and my husband eats tripe all the time!!







Of course it is the kind sold in grocery stores that is cleaned and bleached, but it is a mexican tradition in their "menudo" soup 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menudo_(soup)

ack! I wont try it! He says it is great in his soup, but he also admits that the green tripe we feed the dogs is disgusting..haha!


Anymore pics of Kramer?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

More pictures! Of course! I am working tonight since we have our appt. tomorrow-so took a Kramer break to grab a picture from last week. 

He does investigate. You will not kill him with drugs! I swear he's suspicious of me.









Aww, yeah, poor little things were hopping around-they love stuff like that. 

Okay-so that tripe is different? That's good to know! A lot of people around here LOVE it-Italians and Hispanics. There was a place that had a big drawing of a bowl of tripe soup on the outside of the building-I thought it was fish for years (smelt-for some reason). Then I found out and









Kramer refusing to look at the camera:


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## arycrest

CAMPBELL'S PEPPER POT SOUP (hard to find these days) has tripe in it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Cool Pic! Re: Chiropractic safety and spondylosis*

Gayle-that is so weird! You can buy it on Amazon!!!! 

Kramer had a very nice appointment today-got more chiropractic (and seems not to be broken), light therapy, and acupuncture. For a dog who can have a slight nervous breakdown at the vet, he was what I would call fairly calm. The vet said endorphins are released during acupuncture. I think I may be next, then Nina.










The frozen cup o' peanut butter may have helped! Mmmmm! He loved that. I sat holding it and he licked it out. Ignored the coconut oil until I broke it off and fed it to him.







Yes, YRH. 

Showoff trotted out of the exam room and then trotted to the car-he's got to rest for 24 hours, but I figured, let him enjoy! Before the weird sensations of being adjusted and Chi whatevered kick in! 

He was very relaxed in the car and is tired now. He doesn't have to go next week, but the following, so next week he'll get the Adequan shot. Before you know it, he'll be loosey goosey.









So-here is the cool pic-I think I might post it in the stickied bloat thread so that people get their dogs right in-imagine how this must feel. GAH!!!!!!!!!!

This is Kramer's bloat x-ray. I took a picture of it before returning it. I also actually took that x-ray-I pressed the button! I was going to sign it before I gave it back...but I didn't notice that anyone else had autographed their work on the other x-rays.


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## arycrest

*Re: Cool Pic! Re: Chiropractic safety and spondylosis*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANGayle-that is so weird! You can buy it on Amazon!!!!
> ...


Yuck, not me!!! My father LOVED Pepper Pot Soup - it's nasty - I hated it even before I knew it was made with tripe.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*x-ray Pic! Re: Chiropractic safety and spondylosis*

I guess that picture isn't cool...it's more scary. I am sleep deprived. 

Gayle-did it smell? I always thought something like that would smell!


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## arycrest

*Re: x-ray Pic! Re: Chiropractic safety and spondylosis*

I don't recall it smelling like tripe. It tasted nasty, and didn't smell good, but I don't think the odor was caused by the tripe. I haven't been around it for over 40 years, so my memory may be foggy.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: x-ray Pic! Re: Chiropractic safety and spondyl*






















A bloat x-ray and tripe all in the same thread...how lucky for all of us coming here to check on King Kramer.









Glad he had another positive experience at the vet. Maybe you'll be signing him up for agility soon? I'm sure the local agility place would love to have him showing the other dogs how to do it!


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## Cooper&me

My shepherd gets really nervous at the doctors but sleeps through most of his acupuncture visits. My Boxer likes all outings but is nervous during her adjustments and super excited afterwards.

Both sleep going home


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## kelso

thanks for another pic of Kramer! He looks great









wow that bloat xray is scary..ug I can't imagine how sick that must make them feel


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## LisaT

*Re: x-ray Pic! Re: Chiropractic safety and spondyl*



> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI guess that picture isn't cool...it's more scary. I am sleep deprived. .....


Wow, that's a big black nothing of air trapped in there, eh? I'm not sure I've ever seen an xray of bloat, other than maybe a textbook. Of course they showed me Max's at the time, but I swear I don't remember it......I think I was in shock









glad Kramer is *still* not broken


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

I think that was his stomach, Lisa. 

A couple of days ago, Kramer got his foot caught on a stair step and fell a bit on his way down the stairs (in spite of assistance). 

I have no idea if that has anything to do with what I am seeing or if I did break him, or if there is something else happening. 

Yesterday he had some awkwardness in his walking and difficulty in walking. I have started him on .5 tramadol a day for pain. Concerned it may be from that as well-just looked that up. Incoordination: http://www.drugs.com/cdi/tramadol.html (in people)

Today I decided since he seemed to be uncomfortable, to give him a whole one. I then thought that his "herky jerky" movements when walking were due to a little high-he doesn't handle drugs well-he's a lightweight. 

Tonight, he is having a rough time. He is almost bouncing to move his body-does anyone know what I mean? Like he'll try to take a step starting with a back leg, then bounce his upper body, then the back leg, bounce, front leg. He's also sliding out more when standing. Kitchen floor is very bad, legs will cross over in the front. He is accepting assistance with the harness, which is good. 

He LOOKS very good-alert, ready to bark, which he was just doing with Bruno, ate a good supper, had treats today, and did a pee, but no poop (did a poop earlier). However, the walking has really got me panicked. 

I am so concerned that this has something to do with these treatments-or something else unknown. Both scary. I am at that brain shutdown point-I keep looking at him-he did better on the sidewalk. 

He is supposed to go to the special vet tomorrow. If in the morning he is still doing this stuff, I am calling his regular vet and seeing if he can see him and recommend whether or not he should continue these appts. and also if he can give me a clue as to what is wrong. 

I think Kramer could use a few days of bedrest in case he did hurt himself, but I think he'd almost have to be sedated for that to happen. 

Anyone know what I am seeing here? All of a sudden-he's been doing great, running (not a huge amount), etc. and then poof? 

Thanks.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Oh-no eyes moving back and forth, etc. or head tilt-I am watching for a head tilt.


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## pupresq

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

I'm afraid I don't have any great suggestions but I'm sending (gentle) hugs to Kramer. 

Are all the bad effects confined to his hind end? If that's the case, I'm thinking less likely to be drug effects My Rottie Ivo didn't have a fused spine but had similar symptoms and those were due to degenerative arthritis in his lower (is it "lower" when it's a dog? "Hind"?) spine. He would have days like you're describing and at one point we were convinced he was paralyzed and then, lo and behold, he'd get better again and be able to walk around. Maybe there's some inflamation back there causing some pressure? If that's the case, hopefully it'll go down quickly and he'll be better. More gentle hugs coming your way!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Thank you. 

I am not sure-it is hard to tell in watching him walk. Are his front legs acting funky because of the hind legs or are all four legs acting odd? I can't tell. 

Was Ivo okay with all of this-he seems okay. He still wants to do his routine. He's sleeping now-deeply. 

My plan-tomorrow no tramadol, call vet (real vet) first thing in the am and see if I can get him in. Go from there in terms of appt. with the chiro/acu vet. I think. 

Thanks. In that problem solving thread I linked to a rescue in CA and when I went on to look at their adoption fees I found this: http://kunasz.smugmug.com/gallery/4792198_L2y5Z/1

Gotta say, this is kind of scary.


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## LisaT

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Jean, were you seeing any of these things before the misstep on the stairs?

I can think of two things. One is that the fall has done something -- whenever I used to have a misstep, or would even jog up or down the stairs, it used to knock my neck out of adjustment. That doesn't happen anymore, but sometimes if something is jerked in a certain direction, it can cause problems.

The other thing that I can think of is that something didn't get "completely" adjusted. Chiro adjustments move and mobilize. If the spine is compromised, it doesn't put it back perfectly in place because the bones have spurred, etc. About once every 6-8 months, Indy will get an adjustment that just doesn't sit that well, and it gets worked out at the next appointment. This happens to me to -- there is something about the process, that something it takes steps. Max has been going to the chiro for about 5 years now, and this has only happened to him once.

I hope that it is nothing serious. Do keep us posted -- I'm thinking of him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Ya know, I am having trouble getting my thoughts clear as far as what happened when and how. I was seeing a minor version of that-where he'd pick his front legs up higher or kind of cross over paws when walking and right himself. But I think the fall may have made things worse. I need to get it all right in my head before I talk to anyone! 

Either of those possibilities make sense. I am concerned-I hope he can be put back together if something is out of place. 

There is some discomfort-panting, but other than that, like I said, eating and wanting to do his thing. In fact, this morning before he got worse, I took him out the front so he would only have one step to do, and he took off down the side yard, so he could poop near his regular poop spot in the back yard behind the fence. But now, I could catch him for sure.


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## pupresq

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Yes, Ivo did okay with it. He didn't seem thrilled but wasn't traumatized. Have you tried that thing where you have the dog stand and you flip one of the back paws over so the top is on the ground and see if he can correct it?


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## LisaT

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

It almost sounds like a lot of what you are seeing is related to the fall?

If either of the cases I mentioned before are true, then it should be "fixable". Should be....

Hang in there, don't get to panicked yet. I know, easier said than done. pupresq may have a point too -- there may be some inflammation in there. maybe you should feel around his spine for a tender area and ice it? I've never done that to my dogs, but it sounded good


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

I haven't done the paw flip thing-didn't even occur to me. I get a little thickheaded when it comes to Kramer. 

It could be related to the fall. I know if I fall, depending on how I do it (being supergraceful at times) it can hurt for a few days after. Now if I fell and was somewhere between 93-99 years old, I may have a rougher time. 

I am going to let his regular vet take a look I think. Kramer's sleeping now so I am going to let him. 

I WANTED to do a couple of days of crate rest (x-pen) after he fell. He did not. What I have to do (and maybe hey, not a bad thing to consider) is to do nothing with him or else he has to be involved. 

I am really hoping it's just a little thing.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Just saw this. Could the medication be causing the eye thing and the other stuff you're seeing is his arthritis and just a bad day?

My cousins' lab moved like this because of his arthritis. And Chama also takes a lot of effort to move sometimes now...she kind of looks like Frankenstein with 4 legs but more awkward?


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## kshort

*Re: Very Concerned Chiropractic safety and spondyl*

Jean, no medical advice from me, but just wanted to say my thoughts and prayers are with you and Kramer.

I do remember Max's acupuncture vet telling me that the Tramadol can make them drag their legs more by affecting their coordination. I took Max off of it and believed I saw a little difference in his coordination improving.


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## middleofnowhere

OK I'm stopping reading after page one --

A GOOD chiropractor will know what conditions he can treat and what he can't. She will look at xrays if you have them & go from there. 

Express your concerns to the Dr. and go from there. They do not want to hurt your dog. Find someone good and use them. They will do your dog good and not harm.

Mine feel a ton better after the chiro. I can tell by the way they move.


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## arycrest

First, sending mega hugs and kisses to HRH, hope he's feeling better soon.

My first thought is that his problem may have something to do with his fall. Maybe when you're 100 years old you limp differently, more gingerly, than an 80 year old youngster would.

I "assume" from one of your comments Vestabular Syndrome may be in the back of your mind. I'm no expert, but when Too had her episodes, they all happened together, she didn't exhibit any single symptom when she had an episode but had all of them. After the episodes, she sometimes continued the head tilts for a while after the other symptoms subsided.

Just a thought - the link you posted about Tramadol mentions it may cause dizziness and that hot weather and/or exercise may increase this effect. It also mentions the elderly may be more sensitive to it and the boy is certainly elderly. 

I know people have reported Tramadol causes their dogs to have violent leg thrusting when they're asleep and I've noticed it in different degrees with all there of my seniors who take/took it. Honey's are so violent that if she hits the wall I swear the whole wall shakes - I often have to wake her up and tell her to move away from walls. Maybe it can cause some type of motor symptom like you're seeing when they're awake???

Please let us know what the vet/s have to say. 

GOOD LUCK!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks everyone-it is so helpful to read all these different thoughts/ideas. 

I was afraid to get up this morning-but he got up and was walking MUCH more normally. Not totally normal (his normal) but much closer. Still some crossing of the front legs and it almost looks like when you flip the cards fast to see the picture, but can't flip the cards very well, or very old b/w movies before sound. 

I took him out front and he stepped off the step well, then pulled me on the leash, which is great. He wanted to go farther but I wanted him to take it a little more easy until he sees someone. 

Luckily, he doesn't have an eye thing. Yes, exactly like Frankenstein-very uncoordinated. And he had not been doing that so then last night when he started I was like wtheck is this. 

The tramadol from yesterday should almost be clear-but he's been on it for 3-5 days, since he fell really. I am thinking he's just not going to tolerate it. I guess pain meds are not for him-and it's also possible that he pushed it after falling because he was feeling okay, and really screwed himself up. I know that is why the PT guy told me not to take the darvocet before a session (after I got there loaded up pretty good and ready to move)! 

MON-yes, this vet seems good-but of course this is the first time going there, having any dog get chiro, and then I do it with the oldest dog who is most fragile! I am taking Kramer to his regular vet this morning at 8:45 and go from there as far as his afternoon appointment. 

Gayle-yes-an 80 yo youngster







would recover differently-I mean, this guy is old. When I was picking up my cat from the vet yesterday I did mention to his vet that Kramer was having some issues and mentioned vestibular-and I think you are right that it would look a lot different with all the symptoms. 

Thanks again. I'll let you know after the vet(s) appts. Your kind thoughts are much appreciated-I haven't had a senior of my own before-just watched other peoples' dogs age, so I am really kind of lost with this.


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## pupresq

Good grief Jean - We should all be as inexperienced as you then!







You are the most spectacularly fantastic senior dog mom I know! 

Glad to hear Kramer's doing a little better this AM. Good luck at the vet appointment!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks-I use the kitchen sink approach I guess! And that's not always good-but I am slowly learning. 

We cancelled the second vet appointment for now. 

His first vet appointment, at his regular vet went pretty well. He was walking better this morning. I came up with a decent description of what he was doing-a dressage horse exaggerated walk type thing. But while he was there he didn't do it until the end. 

Of course by that time, waiting for results etc. we had gone for many walks in the parking lot with him leading the way, so I know he was tired. But he just likes to go. When he was young we would do stuff every day for a couple of hours after work. I need to think of some things to keep him mentally moving because he needs that still. He wanted to go walking down the road at the vet office today!







I guess I have to be in charge of how much exercise because he doesn't self limit until it's too late. 

So anyway, bloodwork was good, ALT close to normal but a little higher than the last time (I am thinking inflammation maybe) but good. They did an EKG, but he's just too nervous to get a really good reading-what they got was good, so that was great. 

He is thinking it is a muscle/tissue type injury from falling. Remembering his age and how serious falls are in the human elderly-so no medication at all for the pain so that he doesn't continue to push it. Basically trying to do crate rest for the next 3 days-keep him very quiet, limit activity. I guess we will all be in a down stay! Because he is not easy to limit. And SO stubborn. 

I put the second crib mattress in the living room-but I need to put something around it because he might fall off it. He's up there now, sleeping. I am thinking the other dogs will have to be separated from him more for a few days just to keep him quieter-they are VERY respectful of him and were watchful of him last night. 

Oh-reading that other thread-he's on Synovi G3 which is working, but I was thinking about that Dasiquin and didn't know if that would be something to use in combo or just one...


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## BowWowMeow

Glad to hear he's feeling better! My cousins' lab walked with that scissors leg, much-effort-for-every-step style for the last year of his life! But he was happy so they just got used to it. It is true that they are so much more fragile now and smaller things can set them back just enough that it looks terrible. The good thing is that they seem to take it all in stride. All of this aging business bothers us much more than it bothers them. 


I've got Chama on both Longevity and the Joint Support with Cetyl-M right now. From what I read it sounds like they pee/poop out the excess glucosamine and chondroiton. So far she hasn't had any problems from having both and it does seem to be helping. She's less clunky when walking and has a little more energy. I did back off her dose of Longevity a bit. 

I also tried the Dermaxx/Tremadol with her and neither did a darn thing alone or together except to give her mushy poops! 

And I still walk her 3 times a day, no matter what. Sometimes it's very slow and we don't go very far but she enjoys the stimulation so much that there's no way I'm taking that away from her.


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## pupresq

Yes, very glad to hear he's feeling better! 

Not sure if it's an appropriate drug for his condition and I know different dogs have different reactions but we had a lot of success with Ivo on Zubrin. We tried Deramaxx and Rimadyl, neither of which worked for him. The Zubrin on the other hand, made a big difference. Hated those "melt in the mouth" tabs though.









Anyway, glad to hear things are improving. Would a low x-pen work around the crib mattress or would he hurt himself trying to get over it?


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## LJsMom

pupresq I'm glad you're having success with the Zubrin. My RIP Sasha wasn't so lucky.


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## pupresq

Did it cause her death or just not work for her? I have heard of nsaids killing dogs - Rimadyl mainly and I certainly wouldn't want to recommend something that had an incidence of doing that! 

The dog we used it with is long dead sadly, but thankfully Zubrin gave him probably an extra two years so in our case it was a Godsend. The other two drugs we tried were useless.


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## middleofnowhere

The point with NSAIDs & the elderly is that they are comfortable. Yes, some may incure organ damage but without the meds they are in so much pain that one would be pressed to consider euthanasia. Like most things, there's a trade-off.


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## LJsMom

She died 2 weeks after starting the Zubrin. It was new and I knew there were risks. She did have 2 comfortable weeks.


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## Qyn

I only just saw this







... I hope Kramer is continuing to improve.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Yes-Kramer had a couple of good naps yesterday-really deep sleep (and I had a nice nap with him) and a long night's sleep. Keeping the harness on him and assisting him as needed (stairs) and letting him rest seems to be helping. I think he likes the attention and then also likes to try to be funny-I was walking toward him to help him up the stairs and he ran from me looking back over his shoulder like HA! Gotcha! 

I am glad to hear about that lab. That's good-the mental seems to be the thing that I read in all these threads. That even with the physical limitations, they are still enjoying doing things. 

I ordered the Daisiquin and hope he'll take it. If not, Nina will! She's the good one.









I checked out Zubrin-thanks for that information-I have that and metcam in the back of my head for him somewhere down the line maybe? Those NSAIDs scare me with him-I am not sure if he is sensitive only to narcotic type drugs or if it would be any pill like that. He's not at the point, I guess, where the pain is that bad. Or if he is in pain, he's just plowing through it. We talked about Rimadyl, but got scared just saying it. I am thinking that would be something to do in the pawspice type stage. I am beginning to have an idea of a what to do when, just don't know if I will recognize the when! 

I am sorry about Sasha. But like you said, she had a comfortable time-almost like that hospice model.


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## debbiebrown

with seniors depending on the issue and the pain level Nsaids have their place. but, i have always been able to limit the Nsaids with my seniors. i only give them when i think they need them, and use alternatives regularly, so far i have been lucky enough to have this practice work for me. but, if i thought any were in constant pain i would do what would make them comfortable. preds for seniors is totally not on my list and will avoid it at all costs. i have seen how fast they can go down taking it at that age. it is a big trade off, but you do what you feel is right depending on your individual dog and your medical/alternative beliefs.

debbie


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think on Tuesday when we go, I'll ask about some Metacam for short-term use. He's doing better, but with a LOT of rest. Which is fine! 

This is going to sound so weird-but the night he bloated, before he bloated, I had sharp pains in my stomach to the point of queasiness and dizziness. Then he bloated-or I saw the bloat. I know-very odd to say that I think there was a connection-but there was no reason for me to feel like that. Last few days I have had bad pain in the quads of my thighs-more than I should have for what I have done in terms of squatting, etc. So I was thinking, maybe some sympathetic pain again with Kramer. I KNOW-you guys aren't going to talk to me anymore and with good reason! I am a loon!

I decided to have him Reiki'd yesterday-she does it from a distance. This is what she wrote. First of all







and I got all choked up, then secondly, the leg thing. Odd. 

"I first sent Kramer a chi ball of energy. You can tell he is all heart---the chi ball kept growing bigger and bigger in my hands. As I say the mantra to start the energy and tell God where it is going, I pull my hands farther and farther apart--thus making the chi ball bigger. Kramer's was the biggest I ever made.

I also did him again last night using the older stand by, using my thighs as a substitute. He took an awful lot of energy in his hind legs [in the front of them]."

I think it's weird! And how cool is that Chi ball thing. 

He did well in the back yard today (he hates pottying in the front) and is eating well. Started him on one Dasiquin yesterday, will try another today.


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## Qyn

Yeah ..... like anyone would ever stop talking to you.







I find all that you have posted very interesting from sympathy pain and distance Reiki. I'll look into that as well.

I do have to add it sounds as if Kramer is one big cohuna!!







As if we didn't know!!


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## LJsMom

Jean, can you tell me more about distance Reiki? Like how would I find someone and the cost?

I certainly understand that sympathy pain thing. Lady Jane had an allergic reaction to the bee pollen I was giving her. I felt so bad for her. I had a sympathy runny/stuffy nose.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks for not making me feel even weirder about it than I do! Big cohuna! That's him.







I am glad you had it too!

I am not sure how Reiki works to begin with, never mind distance! But she's done it on me that way, and on him, and it seems to help. I can PM you the information on my "reiki lady" if you'd like-I am not sure how far energy travels-but you can always e-mail other reiki practitioners to ask. What I like-no bad effects if it doesn't work. What's difficult sometimes-did it do anything or am I imagining it! 

This time it did seem to help-from what I can tell. Here he is-I am going to send that picture to her-walking around the back yard:









Ya know, he always looks so solid in pictures-he's down to about 52# but he looks quite...well, not lean like he is. He's wearing Nina's harness full time now and it's been great for him.


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## arycrest

I was going to have Reiki done on Kelly but sadly I guess it wasn't meant to be. 

What a stunning picture of HRH, he looks so handsome standing there in front of the garden in his beautiful vest.


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## LJsMom

Jean, please do PM me. Kramer is so handsome!


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## TMarie

Oh Jean, 
He looks so handsome in that picture! I have been following this thread and haven't checked the last 2 days. He looks great wearing Nina's harness. WOW!!
Make sure you give him big big kisses and hugs from me.

I am considering contacting a Reiki Practioner for Jake too. I think he can really benefit, and no harm if it doesn't work.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks! He likes his harness until I control him with it, then he gets ticked. I also learned today he MUST have his collar on, because I took him for his vet appt. today with just the harness, and I think he could have pulled Santa's sleigh. I kept telling him to stop (and that got me far) and trying to hold him close, because I knew he'd get tired and sore from all that pulling.

The Reiki did really seem to help him over the long weekend, and he has to have quiet time, but WOW is he hard to keep down. Which is good, except it works against him. I'll keep trying though! And that is what I like about the Reiki-no harm done! The Reiki lady sent him some extra, which was nice-Gayle-you did everything for Kelly and I know he appreciated it. 

We did go to the vet today with Bella for her yearly. He got some adequan, so that will help. Dasiquin was approved for him-unfortunately the only one who will eat it is Bruno!







Nina and Kramer act like I gave them a big turd. Actually, Nina would prefer the turd!

He has been leaking the past couple of days. That's tough because he's very neat and clean. I brought in a pee sample but that was fine. He had his prostate checked and that was also fine. So he is starting on a quarter PPA (Proin) 2x/day. I am really hopeful that will help. If not, he is the kind of dog who would wear pants if needed. As long as he had a matching bandana.









Also, drumroll, I got him some Metacam. VERY CONCERNED about it (I mean-the warning from the vet-don't let anyone else get it because if they drink it all they will slough their stomachs off/out) but if this can help him have better days, I am willing to try it. So he got a 40# dosage to start out today. And tonight I am hoping I can go to sleep knowing that stuff is in the house-I have it up in a cupboard but worry because I have some dogs who try to get it if they knew it was there! Ava drank Bella's eye drops before. So I am going to put it in something they can't get to tomorrow. If I can think of something! Ava also has monkey paws. 

So that's it! Hopefully these things will help him out. I brought a PB cookie with me for him for the ride home and he loved that. So he's still got good things that he enjoys. 

And Bella did great at her appt. and was the best dog I've ever seen for a blood draw (of mine)! I also told her to give Kramer kisses in front of the HR person there and she did-it was very cute! She is such a good and sweet girl. She loves her Kramer.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Very nervously letting everyone know (complete with wood knocking, salt tossing and any other superstition) that the Metacam seems to be helping a great deal, after only 3 doses (for 12# less than he weighs). He has refused to continue to potty in the front yard (the invalid potty zone I guess-there must be a stigma because he did it after his bloat surgery, and Ilsa did it after her FHO-just suddenly they refuse to go there anymore).









So I help him down the stairs with the suitcase and then he goes! 

I also believe the PPA/Proin is keeping him dry. Yesterday-not at all. Today, he is going out on a schedule and that is also helping. He is not going each time he is taken out either. 

I am a little worried about his appetite-however he ate canned food for supper after refusing the dry. And guess how he gets the Proin? McNugget! So that could also be part of it-waiting for the junk food...

So, for now, while he's certainly not a 12 yo anymore, he's back to where he was before last week. Thank you St. Francis and Mary.


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## LJsMom

Good news! Also knocking on wood. I like Metacam with its weight specific dosing. I think its the lesser of the pain med evils.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think it might be-I hope so! And I am going about 12-14# under his actual weight. 

Today he went out back every time to potty and just now had a hard time walking, so I am panicked in a way, but also am thinking it is because he did too much. He even went up the stairs by himself instead of waiting for me to get over to help him. I hope when I get him up for bedtime potty he does better. I had to help him to bed. 

I am not sure how I am going to enforce the potties happening in the front yard and a max of 2 in the back yard.


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## BowWowMeow

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI think it might be-I hope so! And I am going about 12-14# under his actual weight.
> 
> Today he went out back every time to potty and just now had a hard time walking, so I am panicked in a way, but also am thinking it is because he did too much. He even went up the stairs by himself instead of waiting for me to get over to help him. I hope when I get him up for bedtime potty he does better. I had to help him to bed.
> 
> I am not sure how I am going to enforce the potties happening in the front yard and a max of 2 in the back yard.










Oh he's a stubborn old geezer. Let him have his way...except I would block the stairs so he can't get up without your help since he could hurt himself otherwise. I think the humidity can't be helping his arthritis either....


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

He really is! It is always a trial by fire with Kramer-I guess someday I'll be thankful he taught me all this! 

For bedtime potties (can you hear me talking to my dogs-I am really a loser), he actually thought going out front was a good idea and did do his pee there. Phew. He was walking better too. I think he just exhausted himself-again with that humidity-and let me tell you the air was so still and moist when we were out, I felt like we should have scuba gear on. 

Good idea on blocking the stairs. Nina will be ticked! When it's hot, she's adorable-she goes out, potties, squeaks a toy a few times, smacks Ava with her butt or flirts with Bruno, and then is ready to go in. I'll have to watch for her so I can let her up! 

OH! I didn't even say that he flew today! Going down the stairs he decided he could do it alone, I was still holding him, and he looked out and jumped! So I had him by the handle







and lifted him up and around so he was soaring through the air until I put him down. I think he liked it!


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## Qyn

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANOH! I didn't even say that he flew today! Going down the stairs he decided he could do it alone, I was still holding him, and he looked out and jumped! So I had him by the handle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and lifted him up and around so he was soaring through the air until I put him down. I think he liked it!


So, Kramer is now a kite?!?! I'm glad he enjoyed it - I hope you did tooooooo!


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## Chicagocanine

My senior Golden is on Metacam and it seems to help her... She also has severe bridging spondylosis and also DJD/arthritis in her hips. We've done acupuncture, water treadmill hydrotherapy, and chiropractic with her...


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## LJsMom

I'm happy to report that Lady Jane went to the holistic vet yesterday. She performed Applied Kinesiology, chiropractic adjustment, and laser acupuncture. LJ was very nervous - as was I - I was afraid the vet would "break" her. When it was all over, she relaxed on the floor and was smiling. She's getting around a lot better. The vet even approved of the food I'm feeding and the supplements she's taking. We go back next week for another adjustment and to find an herb that may help LJ's nightmares.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

for LJ!!!!! I am so glad she didn't break!!!!


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## LJsMom

It's been 4 days since her appointment and I just can't get over the difference. LJ is stomping around all excited, she wants to play ball, and show dominance over Steel. I realized today that she hasn't been wagging her tail much lately. Now its going a mile a minute!


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## kshort

Oh how wonderful that it made such a big difference! Way to go, LJ - so glad you're feeling great!


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## kshort

Kramer - looking at you in that vest is kind of like looking at Tom Selleck in a tux!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Originally Posted By: KShortKramer - looking at you in that vest is kind of like looking at Tom Selleck in a tux!












His new harness is black. Maybe I should put a white bow tie on it? For vet visits and other formal events...


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: KShortKramer - looking at you in that vest is kind of like looking at Tom Selleck in a tux!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His new harness is black. Maybe I should put a white bow tie on it? For vet visits and other formal events...
Click to expand...

Or maybe, if it's not so formal, a purple bow tie, since purple is the color of royalty?


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomIt's been 4 days since her appointment and I just can't get over the difference. LJ is stomping around all excited, she wants to play ball, and show dominance over Steel. I realized today that she hasn't been wagging her tail much lately. Now its going a mile a minute!


Oh that's wonderful that LJ didn't break









It's also neat to see some of the improvements that you didn't realize had been compromised!


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## JenM66

That's such awesome news. Gracie sees a holistic vet on Tuesday for the lumbosacral instability. The last ortho we went to gave her a slight adjustment so I'm stoked to see what a holistic vet will do. His name is Charles Schenck and he's at the Harligen Vet Clinic in NJ.

http://www.byregion.net/mainsearch/search/US_Healers/practitioners/Holistic%20Vets

http://www.vetnaet.com/referral.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=kp5XDbI...num=1&ct=result


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## LJsMom

Lady Jane had her 8th chiropractic appointment yesterday. The vet was very pleased with her progress and only did one minor adjustment. The best part - no charge for the appointment. We go back in 5 weeks.


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## LisaT

Wow, I am so jealous.....Indy has such chronic dysfunction, she has a hard time going longer than every 3 weeks. Max could go longer, but I always bring him too.

I *really* like the no charge part


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