# Loretto Kennels Pedigree Check



## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

Hi everyone, I was recommended to make a post on this website as well as GermanShepherdHome . net

I'm keeping tabs on Loretto Kennels and received pictures of the future pup's parents! I'm currently asking on what Gypsy's hip/elbow scores as it's not on their website.

Dam: Madeb's Gypsy Mamba of Braeloch "Gypsy"
Sire: Ch. Madeb's Fury CGN TEC "Fury" 

I also heard from Quinnsmom that a member here has a pup from Loretto, would love to hear your experience!
Thanks everyone


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I answered your post about these guys on the other board. I like them. I love Jack, their Marhaven dog.


You will find some people love showlines, some do not. Some dislike mixing lines. I like it. I think it brings more balance to the breed if done correctly.


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## Quinnsmom (Dec 27, 2008)

Bumping this. Can any Ontario people or those familiar with North American Show Lines comment on the kennel or the pairing for this young person?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Kaiju- I'm don't think there are many asl owners on here but there are a few so is maybe why the lack of responses. Although kayos and havoc know the kennel and have good things to say. I'm not familiar with the kennel- so sorry not much help. I am incredibly happy with my asl German Shepherd though. He is sweet, smart, funny, intense and serious rolled in one- he is no couch potatoe and has much energy who settles in nicely. He is superb with our two kids and is very gentle with our chihuahua.
They have a ofa website and app if you enter the dogs name or registered number you will get ofa results.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

have known Maurice going back to the late 70's .


breeds for conformation --- enjoys the more extreme "specialty" type.


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

@Kayos and Havoc glad to hear! This gives me more reassurance, thanks for the replies in my other forum too

@Quinnsmom Thank you, will keep a close eye on the replies

@Jenny720 That's really great! hopefully my pup will be as nice as yours, especially with the bad connotation surrounding them as being aggressive  I'm already making a list on places to go for socialization and also bragging to my friends so they will come and visit. The thing is I couldn't find her on the OFA site after searching her name (not really sure where to look for the # though)

@carmspack What is the specialty type?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in showing there is All Breed which is judged by a person who may have experience as a breeder
of Schnauzers or Rottweiler -- but is licensed to judge the GSD .
and then there is Specialty where the judge is a breeder of GSD -- the "type" that they are judging,
so , that would be the "American" type and not the German show or working lines. 


At specialty there is only the GSD --- American show line type - Jimmy Moses of Kaleef Female German Shepherds by Kaleef German Shepherds - James Moses, Sheree Moses Champion GSD Breeders 


Mirheim (Mary Vurma) influential to both Sanhedrin and Madeb Mirheims Abbey
judge - specialty judge , breeder and Mirheim and Kaleef and others are on so many pedigrees 


They are bred for basically ONE thing and that is SIDE GAIT 


Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs this gives you a bit about the different types.


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## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

Hi Kaiju

Within the ASL there are the moderate and the specialty type gsd. On june 26th there is two specialty shows outside of guelph . There should be a ood number of gsd's there from around the area and the states.Here is one of the clubs that is showing. I would suggest an all breed show but the numbers are horrible there is 1 gsd in the forest city show and 1 in the kitchener show in the long weekend.


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

@carmspack Ah I see, thanks so much for the resourceful links
Didn't know a GSD had this many body types
@BUBBAGSD Guelph is quite a car drive away but I try my best to check it out. I just have to hope it doesn't fall on my exam day (would be very unlucky if it is since I only have one exam this semester) Do you have official sites for these shows?


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## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

The shows in question are on the sunday june 26, the clubs that run the two shows i dont think have a website. Here is a link to a website that lists a majority of the dog shows in canada its called canuck dogs


Canuck Dogs: Your source for Canadian dog event information online.

Im sure some of the working people on the site are aware of some shows in the GTA. Good luck in your search


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## Zeus2014 (May 14, 2016)

Kaiju, I wrote you this long reply and was almost done when my computer froze... and I lost everything... I just wanted to reassure you that Morris is an excellent breeder! That being said, is this your first GSD? Fury comes from a very good German blood line and his mother is American blood line. I have a pup from Fury's sister Fia. Very active pup (that's the German blood line in them) but what a great temperament! Morris and I have become good friends in the last 8 years and he is known for his breeding across North America! If you are into dog shows, his dogs have produced a lot of winners! When it comes to hips, most of his dogs have been problem free but you have to talk to him about your concerns! He is the only one who can provide you with the information! Morris hosts a dog show every summer at his kennel in Loretto, I am always there and have been since the very first one in 2009! I am usually to the point and won't beat around the bush when it comes to breeders as I had bad experience with another breeder... Feel free to pm me if you want to discuss your pup, but I can tell you it will be quality breeding!
I can also assure you, I will not promote a breeder I don't believe in, friend or not!
Hope this help!
Quinnsmom is also a friend of mine and knows me quite well!


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

@BUBBAGSD thanks for the link! I will set up a reminder so I can plan a trip when the date is a little bit closer
@Zeus2014 Thank you so so much! Sorry to hear about the frozen computer, I've had my share with school assignments... not fun.
Yes this will be my first GSD and my first dog ever, a lot of my friends have/had big dogs before and they were lovely. Always made me jealous that they had a huge furball to cuddle with
I won't be showing, but I'm considering some casual agility if it's not pricey... I'll leave that research for tomorrow
That's a relief to hear about the hips, I follow this youtuber who owns rescue Sheps and they had a beautiful male with a hunched back. He could barely walk and couldn't really feel any pats on his behind. I believe he passed away recently too, very sad.
We called Morris and said we could visit in July when the pups are 5 weeks old, I'm so excited! I'll also ask about his show, I've been religiously watching Crufts and would really love to see one in real.
I'll send you a pm soon, just gotta reach 15 posts


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I've been religiously watching Crufts and would really love to see one in real."


I don't think I would be watching Crufts show for examples of good german shepherds . 
The GSD of 2015 was so bad that the entire breed has been
suspended from competition the following year . The conformation so abnormal that 
members of the public and humane societies called it cruel , yet the owners/breeders
were surprised and defensive .


Study what good , functional conformation is .


Good conformation has an inherent truth to it that transcends niche breeding .


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Hello, I have a son of Fury/Karma (Sanhedrin) breeding. Jack from Loretto is Karma's father. Fritz has a great temperment, very stable, loves people, dogs, cats. This was taken when he was 1 year old..will be 2 next month.


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

@carmspack I tend to stay away from watching show judging, reminds me of beauty pageants. 
I tend to watch it more for obedience, fly ball, and those freestyle foot works







They have more suspense. I've also seen the police dog demonstrations, those are really awesome. But I've yet to see a German Shepherd not doing police work on Crufts

Oh and the bloopers, bloopers are great especially with the dog pooping in the middle of agility LOL


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

Debanneball said:


> Hello, I have a son of Fury/Karma (Sanhedrin) breeding. Jack from Loretto is Karma's father. Fritz has a great temperment, very stable, loves people, dogs, cats. This was taken when he was 1 year old..will be 2 next month.
> 
> [iurl="http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=365449&d=1463199854"]
> 
> ...


That's so great to hear! And he's so beautiful too! Thanks for the assurance  I can't wait to visit and see these dogs in person


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

kaiju -- use your search function (to the right of the pages bar) and type in madeb's .
You will get a few pages of discussions which are either directly about madeb's or
make mention of the kennel or a particular dog .


Here is a sample which covers pedigrees, conformation, comparisons between the different 
GSD groups - goes on for pages and pages . Likely to generate more questions 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/166991-gsl-stud-improve-asl.html


On one of the threads there was mention of downed pasterns and loose ligaments . This is something 
that you need to know about and watch out for.


again - make use of your search function . Type in downed pasterns and you get pages and pages
of threads discussing this -- sample http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...zation/182706-correcting-down-pasterns-3.html


same with loose ligaments - search function 


the more informed you are before seeing the cute face and playfulness of a puppy the better you will be making a good decision


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

kaiju said:


> @carmspack I tend to stay away from watching show judging, reminds me of beauty pageants.
> I tend to watch it more for obedience, fly ball, and those freestyle foot works
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry - but this post is so full of misunderstanding I cannot stand it.....

the type of dog you are looking at IS the type shown in "show judging competitions" NOT NOT NOT the kind doing a police work or obedience or agility!!!! The show ring people are referring to - the SPECIALTY type is the extreme conformation show type. Dogs at CRUFTS are NOT capable of "police work" either athletically or structurally.

Please study the Linda Shaw information and study the breed "type" differences and how they relate to functions. MOST dogs competing in sports - MOST - are working line European origin - not dogs who are looking for conformation championships.


Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I had a rescue dog who was likely ASL-she probably wouldn't have done well in the show ring-maybe she was just plain old pet lines-her pedigree was unknown-she did well in the obedience ring -she just wanted to please-if it wasn't for her age she could have gone further-and she would have made a good agility dog too


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## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> I am sorry - but this post is so full of misunderstanding I cannot stand it.....
> 
> the type of dog you are looking at IS the type shown in "show judging competitions" NOT NOT NOT the kind doing a police work or obedience or agility!!!! The show ring people are referring to - the SPECIALTY type is the extreme conformation show type. Dogs at CRUFTS are NOT capable of "police work" either athletically or structurally.
> 
> ...


How many times can I hit the LIKE button for this post??? 

I attended the German Shepherd Canadian national show last year to see the dogs there. I sincerely wish I had done so BEFORE purchasing my American show line boy. I won't say more here - feel free to PM me.


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## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

Haha, Carmen - yep, I have the poster boy for loose ligaments and downed pasterns. Just ordered pastern supports for him this week; next step is full on custom orthopedic braces. :/ Of course, there are better, more sound examples of ASL animals out there, but mine is a horrifying example of what can happen when people are breeding for extremes and that side gait.


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

Whoa, I feel like a bunch of information exploded in my face thank you so much guys !!
I didn't know something this bad existed!

First, I want to make clear of what type of dog I'm looking for: A good family pet that will go on hikes, biking, and swimming
I only watch Crufts like a soccer game, it's not something that I'm planning to do but just enjoy the entertainment, (although I was considering very casual agility... but I'm going to leave this out until I even decide on a breeder and bring him home)



holland said:


> I had a rescue dog who was likely ASL-she probably wouldn't have done well in the show ring-maybe she was just plain old pet lines-her pedigree was unknown-she did well in the obedience ring -she just wanted to please-if it wasn't for her age she could have gone further-and she would have made a good agility dog too


Pet lines, ok this sounds something that I'm looking for but I've only been hearing about working line vs show line. Does such a thing exist? I need to find a breeder who doesn't breed for conformation in this case!



wolfstraum said:


> Please study the Linda Shaw information and study the breed "type" differences and how they relate to functions. MOST dogs competing in sports - MOST - are working line European origin - not dogs who are looking for conformation championships.
> 
> 
> Lee


You had me at Misunderstanding, I will read up on this ASAP but I still can't believe what I'm reading. Who in the world wanted to mess with the GSD and turn them into cripples?!



carmspack said:


> the more informed you are before seeing the cute face and playfulness of a puppy the better you will be making a good decision


Will do carmspack! Time to start my research over, and again thanks for the links you've been great help!!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hmmm, well I have ASLs and have no issues with them. I've got good temperaments. They've all had a willingness to do anything I ask of them. No one was spooky or weird. Two were show dogs - one an AKC champion, and the other died before I could finish her championship. She died of a spinal infection, not anything genetic. As far as specialty dogs go, mine have done well in both All Breed and Specialties.

Russell's litter sister is a Search and Rescue dog on a team down in Texas. Carly's half brother has his UD title (finished with 3 straight wins), and a Rally Excellent. He also has 6 points towards his championship. I've dabbled around with Barn Hunt and Nosework. Having an ASL doesn't mean you have a hock-walking crippled freak that can't do some dog sports with you.


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

dogfaeries said:


> Hmmm, well I have ASLs and have no issues with them. I've got good temperaments. They've all had a willingness to do anything I ask of them. No one was spooky or weird. Two were show dogs - one an AKC champion, and the other died before I could finish her championship. She died of a spinal infection, not anything genetic. As far as specialty dogs go, mine have done well in both All Breed and Specialties.
> 
> Russell's litter sister is a Search and Rescue dog on a team down in Texas. Carly's half brother has his UD title (finished with 3 straight wins), and a Rally Excellent. He also has 6 points towards his championship. I've dabbled around with Barn Hunt and Nosework. Having an ASL doesn't mean you have a hock-walking crippled freak that can't do some dog sports with you.


This is really interesting to hear, so what I'm getting at is some breeders, even breeding for conformation, are OK physically?
Then how can I tell which puppy will grow into a cripple and which will not??

Thanks for your reply dogfaeries


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

kaiju said:


> Whoa, I feel like a bunch of information exploded in my face thank you so much guys !!
> I didn't know something this bad existed!
> 
> First, I want to make clear of what type of dog I'm looking for: A good family pet that will go on hikes, biking, and swimming
> ...



To be honest Sadie-my rescue was a total accident-she just happened a friend saw her in the shelter-got her for $20-probably never would have got her from a breeder. She was an awesome little dog-pet lines are not viewed positively here. She also was not extreme in confirmation. Once she was healthy-she weighed about 35lbs when I got her -she was compact and agile and not bad looking


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

holland said:


> To be honest Sadie-my rescue was a total accident-she just happened a friend saw her in the shelter-got her for $20-probably never would have got her from a breeder. She was an awesome little dog-pet lines are not viewed positively here. She also was not extreme in confirmation. Once she was healthy-she weighed about 35lbs when I got her -she was compact and agile and not bad looking


Aw that's super sweet! May I ask why pet lines are not good?
I might go visit the shelter soon and see if I can find a friendly GSD, I just hope they have one that is good with other pets. So far on petfinder; no luck.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

kaiju said:


> This is really interesting to hear, so what I'm getting at is some breeders, even breeding for conformation, are OK physically?
> Then how can I tell which puppy will grow into a cripple and which will not??
> 
> Thanks for your reply dogfaeries


Well, if you were to listen to most of the members here, you would assume that all American Showlines were crippled. A nice side gait doesn't automatically equal a crippled dog. Grrrrr. My girl Carly, who definitely wins on her movement, is very sound at 6 years old. She has OFA Good hips. She doesn't have bad pasterns, feet or hocks. She's a fabulous dog to live with too. In fact, she's not quirky at all, which leads to the criticism that she's a little "too" perfect.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

kaiju -- Crufts represents a showcase of the ideal dogs in competition for a status reward -- just like the American Westminster show.


quote " only watch Crufts like a soccer game, it's not something that I'm planning to do but just enjoy the entertainment"


This is your exposure to what is SUPPOSED to be an ideal for the breed . That is just wrong.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think most are looking at the average and percentages - there are of course, ASLs like dogfaeries - but they are not as common especially from breeders who promote their show winners and breed high numbers....

There are Euro show line dogs who can do wonderful tracking, and even some who have made good law enforcement (LE) K9s.....

And many working line dogs do great as active pets - in fact, IMO most of the working line pups do end up in pet homes because there are just not enough working homes...so breeders must be prepared to place their pups appropriately and produce dogs that can suceed as family companions....

Breeding for pets alone is usually the territory of backyard breeders and puppy mill type breeders - tons of pups or constant supply of pups or just plain ignorance by breeding family pets because they have AKC papers............those are the fodder for shelters, temperament issue and health problems.


<ee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

kaiju said:


> Aw that's super sweet! May I ask why pet lines are not good?
> I might go visit the shelter soon and see if I can find a friendly GSD, I just hope they have one that is good with other pets. So far on petfinder; no luck.



well if you read wolfstraum post-they are fodder for the shelter-which was were I found her -pet lines are not good because breeders are not putting thought into the breeding. I guess with Sadie she taught me to look at the dog. She had a pretty good temperament -loved kids-she matched herself to the child-her only fluke was she was not fond of puppies-that was pretty manageable


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Finding a good breeder is work for any line. It is good to go to different shows or clubs see the different dogs. Have you met the dogs from this breeder or talked to anyone who owned one of these dog how is there temperament. Every pup in a litter is different in temperament and confirmation. Did you tell the breeder what you are looking for. Each person with specifc interests will choose a particular lines /breeder. 
Each line have there strength and weaknesses. Yes I'm fond of showlines I'm not fond of extreme angulation. problems exist on all lines and dogs so it is important to do your homework in that regard as you are. I had a working line he was incredibly intense disciplined and serious he was also very quite and calm. Not all working dogs are extremely hyper. You need to see the different lines -talk to people see what you like it gives you confidence in what your getting. Again I am very happy with my asl - He is dog reactive our cross to bear whether it is genetic or my focus just lacked in socializing with dogs. He is incredible with my kids and pets in the house. To hAve a large dog you can trust with your kids and who is occasionally forgiving to me is number 1 priority. He is incredibly smart and versatile. Some of his relatives are cadaver dogs. We did obedience work and now doing nose works I want to do eventually sheepherding. We have some agility equipment in the backyard that he just loves. We go sledding and bikejoring he lives swimming at the beach. Everything i do with him we have fun he is a very happy guy. He is an incredible watch dog and makes us all feel safe. My asl does not walk on his hocks or looks like he has loose limbs he has no allergies and appears so far to be very healthy. I'm just glad no one talked me out of getting my asl - life would not be the same without him.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> I'm just glad no one talked me out of getting my asl - life would not be the same without him.



Yes. This. ^


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Kaiju, I have both American Showlines and West German Showlines and a my youngest dog is combination of the two. 


My ASL is 13.5 and has enjoyed great health her whole life. She developed cancer last fall but is still on top of it. She also has bad hips. But ALL of the lines can have bad hips. Kayos is the most stable, solid tempered and kind dog I have had. 


I did not see a lot of extremes in the dogs from Loretto. 


Every line can have poor temperament, poor health and ortho issues. Loom at the parents and if they are free of these issues than get the dog you want.


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## kaiju (May 13, 2016)

Thank you all! I think my best bet would be to visit, take some good and natural pictures of the parents + puppies and will ask again on this forum 
For fun, I might be visiting some golden retriever puppies tonight, but I don't know anything about the breeder since my parents found them on the vet social media. I will update you on how that goes but I probably will convince them not to get one since i feel very sceptical from the lack of info.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

We look forward to seeing pics of your new puppy whenever you get one!


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