# Raising puppy w/ SchH in mind



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I am getting a puppy next month and would *like* to try SchH. I understand there might be a difference in how a SchH dog is raised, so I would like to raise him as if we will be doing SchH. I understand that socialization is important, formal obedience should wait until later, the puppy should NOT be corrected, we should encourage prey drives and motivate him to play, and we should not let older dogs totally dominate him. Beyond this, are there any good books, DVDs, or online resources for raising a prospective SchH puppy?

How old are puppies when they are evaluated or start training with the club? I would like to start going, even if just to watch, and then bring him when he is old enough if there's an appropriate age.

This is the club I would like to join, John (ZeusGSD) recommended http://www.tristark9.com/ with Roni Hoff and I am waiting to hear back from them.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

Not to branch out on your post, but I have been wanting to ask this for a few weeks.

A few weeks back we met another GS Pup at a park near our house. There is a dog park there (where we were going) and also soccer/football fields where kids were having practice. The place was PACKED with people.

I asked the man with the pup (5 months old) if we could meet him and he told us no. He explained that his dog was being ScH trained and was not allowed to rough house or play with other dogs. That was fine...I understand people not wanting strange dogs approaching theirs if they so choose. My daughter asked if she could pet the pup and was also told no. He gave basically the same reason. 

I asked him where he was training and he said he was training on his own at home. This sparked my interest since I think people with a natural training ability are neat. I continued on to ask how many ScH dogs he had trained, how he had been doing it, etc etc since he seemed like a chatty person. He told me this was his first, he had no training himself and he was not bringing his dog to a training facility or class since he did not want to "harm" the dog by having it around too many other dogs. He did say he had read a lot of books on the topic, which is where he learned what he is teaching his pup.

I asked him what he was hoping for...if he was going to be competing or what, and his reply was that he was going to be using this dog as a PPD (Personal Protection Device) only for his home.

This all rather scared me. This seems like a really bad idea to me, and I may very well be very wrong about this since I know NOTHING about ScH or its training. But, it seems to me that to have a completely unsocialized dog taught by someone who is unsure himself of how to proceed (or worse yet, someone who THINKS he knows what he is doing but really doesn't) is just asking for disaster. He has three kids young enough to be in pee wee soccer leagues at home as well as a cocker spaniel and I dont recall how many cats he said he had.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Mandalay, that would scare me too! If that is SchH I want no part! I've read some of the Leerburg e-books and there has been some helpful suggestions, but the ONE thing I continually disgree with is not letting others pet the dog. First and foremost, my dogs WILL be well socialized. I don't own my own home or property, there are kids all around and we share a yard, I take my dogs everywhere with me. Even if competition in sport will suffer, I want my dogs very well-socialized. I'd rather deal with a dog that is too social than a dog that is too protective or a fear biter. This is one area where I will not compromise. My puppy is already signed up for puppy class at my regular club.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI am getting a puppy next month and would *like* to try SchH. I understand there might be a difference in how a SchH dog is raised, so I would like to raise him as if we will be doing SchH. I understand that socialization is important, formal obedience should wait until later, the puppy should NOT be corrected, we should encourage prey drives and motivate him to play, and we should not let older dogs totally dominate him.


That's about right. Though I don't believe the theory that SchH pups must not ever be corrected. Corrections should be kept to a minimum, which can be done without much grief by being proactive to prevent the pup getting into trouble, supervising, crating when you can't supervise, and redirecting biting to other objects. Certainly a life of constant NO NO NO is bad for a SchH pup, and for any pup as far as I'm concerned. But some corrections may be needed, and if the pup has a temperament well suited to SchH to begin with, a few corrections isn't going to harm the pup's potential.

With regard to playing and doing rag work to encourage prey drive, grip, etc.. this is important but it's also important that it is done correctly. So you might want to have someone who's raised pups for SchH work with you a bit to make sure you're playing properly. Done right, they learn important lessons for later training. But done wrong can cause lots of problems for later.



> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> How old are puppies when they are evaluated or start training with the club? I would like to start going, even if just to watch, and then bring him when he is old enough if there's an appropriate age.


I've always thought 6 months was about the perfect age. Past teething and drive should be well developed so they can start doing some beginning bitework. Though I like to start basic obedience imprinting and tracking earlier. As early as 8 weeks old.

A lot has to do with the owner's experience raising a pup for SchH too. If the owner knows what to do in the early weeks and months, waiting longer isn't a problem. But if s/he doesn't, getting together with the club right away is often the best idea. The pup won't be able to do much at club for a while, but the club can show the owner how to correctly play with the pup and do basic imprinting, and start tracking, while waiting for the pup to be old enough to really participate in club.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Mandalay-

That person doesn't have a clue about SchH, and is certainly not representative of the norm. You're right, he's a disaster in the making.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> With regard to playing and doing rag work to encourage prey drive, grip, etc.. this is important but it's also important that it is done correctly. So you might want to have someone who's raised pups for SchH work with you a bit to make sure you're playing properly. Done right, they learn important lessons for later training. But done wrong can cause lots of problems for later.


Are there any common things that people do wrong?

I'm trying to get ahold of this trainer so I can get "me" lessons before I have the puppy.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> Are there any common things that people do wrong?


Playing too long, until the pup is bored or tired, rather than quitting at the right time, when the drive is still high and not yet satisfied.

Giving the bite at the wrong time and too often and too easily, without the pup being at the proper level of drive before earning the bite.

Always letting the pup win (which you should do) but not at the appropriate time. Pup shouldn't win if bite isn't full and the pup isn't actually working. People need to know how to properly hold the toy to allow a good counter, but then don't just let go as soon as the pup counters to a full grip, wait for him to resume fighting WITH that full grip before winning.... then don't just let go, make him work for it by slightly loosening your grip until he can pull it out.

Overpowering pups. People like to pick them up and drag them around and slap their sides.. and that's all fine to a point. But too much teaches the wrong lessons. It teaches the pup that he can't really overpower whomever he's fighting with, he can just hang on and put up with it and if he does eventually he'll win. For the pup to learn to show power, he needs to know it accomplishes something. So handlers need to be good actors and let the pups drag them around and beat them up and overpower them a lot when playing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks Chris! I'm going to have to train my husband more than the dog!


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## hethir (Sep 25, 2008)

Wow, I had no idea there was this much to raising a schH pup! I have always read that the dog needs to know that you're in charge and you do that making sure to always win the tug! Eep, I hope it's not too late! I have a 12 week old gsd who has some great schH dogs in his lineage and was hoping to get to participate in that with him when he gets older. For now we're focusing on socialization and obedience. I've noticed he is already a very dominating puppy, I don't want him growing up owning the house! What can I do to achieve a good balance of respect for my husband and I and schH? What exactly is rag work? What does it mean to "give the bite"? How do you know when your pup is countering for the full grip? What about tracking, is there anything a potential schH puppy owner can do now to encourage that? Sorry for all the questions!


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MandalayNot to branch out on your post, but I have been wanting to ask this for a few weeks.
> 
> A few weeks back we met another GS Pup at a park near our house. There is a dog park there (where we were going) and also soccer/football fields where kids were having practice. The place was PACKED with people.
> 
> ...


Disregard every thing he said he is a idiot. And Chris said it best


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## MLinn730 (Jan 19, 2006)

I think the most important thing I have learned with my first SchH pup is that I can't be a perfectionist (as I typically want to do). At first I would kick myself for doing the "wrong" thing with my pup, and I was convinced I had ruined her. I just wasn't ready for what a huge learning process it was going to be for me.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I finally discovered the nonforum part of this website today!! xD
Silly me, I know. But I read the part about Schutzhund, and was surprised to hear that the puppy should not be placed in a situation where it could make a mistake.

I had originally thought it would be good for a puppy to learn from its mistakes!


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## DogBuddy (May 2, 2008)

Great post...good read!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ReiI finally discovered the nonforum part of this website today!! xD
> Silly me, I know. But I read the part about Schutzhund, and was surprised to hear that the puppy should not be placed in a situation where it could make a mistake.
> 
> I had originally thought it would be good for a puppy to learn from its mistakes!


It depends on the conquest. When you are playing and training you let the dog to make mistakes and you simply ignore them and reward the good things. I like to let the puppies to take decisions and to do wrong, so they learn to resolve tier own problems, by example hiding the ball in difficult places where the dogs has to figure out how to get it or walking in difficult surfaces where the puppy has to jump or surround obstacles. On those cases the dog is allowed to make mistakes and encouraged to make decisions.

But in day to day situations you can't always let the dog to make a mistake, you can't let the dog to chew on the lamp cord and let it learn from its experience, you can't let the pup to experiment the taste of your clothes and your couch. We can't let the dog to do many things, for their safety and for our mental health but what we try to avoid is to be constantly telling the pup No!, No!, No!, Bad Pup! then what we do is to PREVENT all those situations to happen. We make our houses puppy-proof for a while and we punish the less we can and instead we redirect the puppy attention to things it is allowed to do, by example, to play with his things instead of ours.


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