# muscle development...questions



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Please bare with me. I'm not exactly sure how to ask what I want to know so I have a bunch of stuff with questions thrown in.

Sage- male GSD
2yrs old (26months)
28" tall
33" girth
80lbs
neutered just shy of 10months of age

One of the things I'm wondering about is his development. I'm not sure if there is a nutrition issue, early neutering, genetics, no issue, I'm stupid, or all the above - even though Sage is large he still seems small to me... He seems very narrow. He doesn't seem to be building muscle. He is strong, he is toned. I can feel muscles but he just doesn't look... masculine/muscular. I think his back legs look strong but chest/shoulder not so much.

I asked this question a while back http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/162270-rib-cage.html 
I was wondering if he has a flat rib cage maybe I am keeping him too thin using normal methods and thus he is not getting proper nutrients to build muscle. (the website I linked in that thread is down, I am thinking there was something there about dogs with flat rib cages lacking muscle mass but I can't be certain)

Oh he is eating on average 3 1/2 cups a day of Orijen Adult. He also gets treats, raw bones, etc.. but not sure how much on average.

Here is a recent thread where I kind of touched on this but decided to start this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/164642-your-dog-fat-sorry-2.html#post2219033

The pictures in that thread are a little old. Here are some from yesterday ( I know there are a lot of pictures but I want to make sure what I'm talking about is seen)

This is not about his terrible conformation so please don't waste critique on my stakcing skills....muscles/developement. Please do not be shy in your comments.

he moved..



































































































Front view of chest










I know someone will suggest raw diet. I would love to do that but I have a tiny freezer. I do not have space and without buying in bulk it would not be an affordable option. He needs to be on grain free diet. So if you suggest another kibble keep that in mind. I thought protein was good for building muscle (of course with exercise)..thought he was on a high protein food already.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I have zero experience with this product (k9 super fuel) but I have a friend with working dogs that uses it. One of the claims is 'builds muscle'.

K9 Super Fuel for Dogs


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sage looks fine to me! Maybe not as masculine as some males, but his body condition looks good. He may need another year to fill out.


----------



## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Honestly, I think the only way to get real muscle development is with a raw diet. He has to eat meat and he needs exercise (swimming, running or you on a bike with him jogging next to you, etc.)

I agree with GSDAlphaMom in that I head K9 Super Fuel builds muscle and is a good *supplement*. You still you have to feed meat to gain significant muscle.

Just to add, you can find a small deep freezer on craigslist to store your raw meat. People will advertise a nice small chest one for about $100 and of course you offer $50 and will probably walk away with it for $70.

For what you are paying in Orijen, you can afford raw.....seriously. You dont have to buy so much in bulk as you think. You also feed less than you do with kibble. No matter how good Orijen is, there is no substitute for real meat.

Nice looking dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think he looks good to He's young, he's not heavy boned , so maybe your thinking because he isn't 'heavy boned' he's not muscled?

Masi is 3, she's long legged , (26" 74#)finer boned but built like a brick you know what house. She is all muscle, you can feel it espec in her back thigh areas..She does ALOT of swimming, ALOT of running, and well alotta stuff She's lean and I like to keep her that way..

It could also be immaturity with Sage, I don't think he looks underweight at all, in fact I wouldn't want him any fatter, but I tend to like a lean dog.. My males all tended to look gangly, long lean, ribby, until they matured out between 2-3 yrs old. It wasn't because of lack of muscle tone, it was just what I called, "the uglies" LOL..


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> Honestly, I think the only way to get real muscle development is with a raw diet. He has to eat meat and he needs exercise (swimming, running or you on a bike with him jogging next to you, etc.)
> 
> I agree with GSDAlphaMom in that I head K9 Super Fuel builds muscle and is a good *supplement*. You still you have to feed meat to gain significant muscle.
> 
> ...


He does swim, often. We started biking in June. I don't have space in my house for a freezer or I would have one. Really, I do want to feed raw but I don't see how it is possible right now. Maybe could figure out how to feed raw half time. There are plenty of kibble fed dogs with muscle though, I get your point and I do agree raw is best but not a good option right now. His treats are real meat. I know it's not the same, but I'm sure he gets more real meat than most kibble fed dogs.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think he looks good to He's young, he's not heavy boned , so maybe your thinking because he isn't 'heavy boned' he's not muscled?
> 
> Masi is 3, she's long legged , (26" 74#)finer boned but built like a brick you know what house. She is all muscle, you can feel it espec in her back thigh areas..She does ALOT of swimming, ALOT of running, and well alotta stuff She's lean and I like to keep her that way..
> 
> It could also be immaturity with Sage, I don't think he looks underweight at all, in fact I wouldn't want him any fatter, but I tend to like a lean dog.. My males all tended to look gangly, long lean, ribby, until they matured out between 2-3 yrs old. It wasn't because of lack of muscle tone, it was just what I called, "the uglies" LOL..


Thanks Diane. I've said it a million times, he's my first dog so I don't know what is normal. Everyone I know has fat dogs. Everyone tells me he is so skinny. GSD people say he will fill out and I'm like when, because he's so narrow I can't imagine him changing that much more. The GSDs I have met are all bigger but they are also bigger boned SL type. Plus Sage has that tight coat he really shows how narrow he is. The only WL GSD I know is a DDR brick house. That dog gets walks and runs in the yard and has bulging muscles.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

some are just finer boned...one of my gsd's long ago , I swear I had people telling me all the time how skinny he was and he was 2 years old,,He DID look like some skinny starved junkyard dawg LOL..He was VERY active, and finally when he really matured out, he filled out and didn't look so unproportioned.

My first female, she was an energizer bunny, and she burned off whatever she ate, I couldn't get her fat if I wanted to, but she was all muscle, long legged and long bodied, it was just her metabolism and she never really did get 'fat'..

I don't know how many vets I've heard say "your dog is to thin", but you look at THEIR dogs and they are fat hogs! ..

I like a lean dog, I want them proportioned, and I want to feel muscle..if they have a good diet, get good exercise, and mature out, they usually 'grow' into themselves.


----------



## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

He looks pretty good, IMO.

Although he was neutered at 10 months, that might be young enough that he will remain a bit "feminine" looking his whole life. Neutered males, of any species, grow a bit taller, are leaner, and lack "masculine" bone and muscle.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

SchHGSD said:


> He looks pretty good, IMO.
> 
> Although he was neutered at 10 months, that might be young enough that he will remain a bit "feminine" looking his whole life. Neutered males, of any species, grow a bit taller, are leaner, and lack "masculine" bone and muscle.


This just made me think of something I want to clarify... I am fine with him being a bit feminine looking. I'm not disappointed that he isn't this big beast of a dog. I just want to make sure he's healthy and that everything I can do to help him grow properly is done... well except for early neutering :crazy:


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> There are plenty of kibble fed dogs with muscle though, I get your point and I do agree raw is best but not a good option right now. His treats are real meat. I know it's not the same, but I'm sure he gets more real meat than most kibble fed dogs.


For goodness sake, don't beat yourself up because you don't feed raw! I had to switch my older GSD from raw to kibble because I had a hard time keeping weight *on* her with raw. 

Like I said, Sage looks just fine--just because he isn't as big-boned and stout as some males, doesn't mean he isn't healthy and in good shape. I think you're worrying too much.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I think you're worrying too much.


It seems that way 


> I'm not sure if there is a nutrition issue, early neutering, genetics, *no issue, I'm stupid*, or all the above


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I think the term is BEAR with me.
I only BARE with my wife.

Your dog has a slender build. Accept it. He is healthy and eating well.
Would you change the build of a basketball player to make him a lineman?
No, because you couldn't. Genetics has made him what he is .... so be it.
My dog is slender too. That is how she is built. I wouldn't want to change
a super model into a speed skater. We have to take them as they are.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you have a tall boy. maybe being
that tall has something to do with
being thin. you said he is toned and 
that's good.


----------



## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

sagelfn said:


> This just made me think of something I want to clarify... I am fine with him being a bit feminine looking. I'm not disappointed that he isn't this big beast of a dog. I just want to make sure he's healthy and that everything I can do to help him grow properly is done... well except for early neutering :crazy:


Feminine is probably not the best word...but not sure what other one to use. :blush:

I think he looks great. And he will still fill out some, he is young. You can always do some exercise with him, but it will only develop what muscles he HAS, not make him what he is not.


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> I think the term is BEAR with me.
> I only BARE with my wife.
> :blush: *OMG, that is right. No people do not bare with me*
> 
> ...


Did you not read this?



sagelfn said:


> Posted at 7:53pm
> This just made me think of something I want to clarify... I am fine with him being a bit feminine looking. I'm not disappointed that he isn't this big beast of a dog. I just want to make sure he's healthy and that everything I can do to help him grow properly is done... well except for early neutering :crazy:


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

SchHGSD said:


> Feminine is probably not the best word...but not sure what other one to use. :blush:


No, word use was fine. He is lacking secondary sex characteristics. Your post didn't bother me at all just reminded me to make it clear that I wasn't disappointed or anything with him..and in good time to remember that too because someone felt I was.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Did you not read this?


Guilty as charged.
I don't always read EVERY post in the thread and
occasionally get in trouble for it.

MEA MAXIMA CULPA


----------



## Veronica1 (Jun 22, 2010)

Panzer is fine-boned too. In fact, Sage has a wider head than my boy does. Panzer has a narrow rib cage and a nice tucked waist. DH wants Panzer to "fill out" so when he doesn't see an increase on the scale, he's a little disappointed. I keep saying filling out shouldn't mean getting fat. Hopefully our fine-boned, lean boys will have healthy hips at an old age. 

I think Sage looks great.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't think the diet has a thing to do with it one way or the other in terms of building muscle. I have a very muscular male on kibble and have had very lean dogs on raw. 

I really do think it is more related to excercise and testosterone levels as well as genetics. So he is what he is. If you keep him lean (even a muscular dog needs lean) and fit that is what is important.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Nancy, and I don't think he is 'feminine' looking, I would not look at him and say oh a girl I still think it has alot to do with maturing out as well, which has nothing to do with muscle, 

I'll have to find some old pics of my males during their 'uglie' stages LOL


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think it's just that he doesn't have as heavy a build as some GSDs.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO, some is his age, but a lot is the lack of testosterone from the neutering. He will probably never look very masculine or get the muscle build that an intact male would have. 

Other than that he looks healthy, lean and young.


----------

