# Please, pedigree gurus, tell me your thoughts about this breeding



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Nick vom haus Rentz - German Shepherd Dog

Tell me about this breeding  thanks you in advance


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

genetic lottery ticket - Czech sire to female who is Belgian/czech over a showline....

wouldn't even hazard a guess....

Lee


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Lee, I looked at the pedigree before I read your comment. I must be getting better at reading pedigrees, I thought the same.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Truly a genetic hodge podge of Czech, Belgian, WGSL, and a touch of East. The dog has some real high highs in the pedigree, and also some real concerns in the pedigree. I won't go into specific negatives, but I will say that I don't like seeing a West German showline dog on the dam out line. There's too much dog above in top three lines, some with super strong drives, and super aggression; to rely on a showline's nerve, in the dam out line, for my comfort. Having said that there are some super dogs in this pedigree, but not much reason to the planning that I can see.JMO


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't like seeing a West German showline dog on the dam out line. There's too much dog above in top three lines, some with super strong drives, and super aggression; to rely on a showline's nerve, in the dam out line, for my comfort.


could you explain the above? Complete Greek to me unfortunately.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Given this thread, or the other thread I posted, or waiting on another breeding of brongo, what do you think? If waiting on another brongo breeding, what should be looked for in the dam?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Dam out - or sire out is the bottom or top of the pedigree....in horse terms, it is easier - dam, second dam is her dam, third dam is the second dam's dam, fourth is the third's dam and so on...if you look at a pedigree, it will follow the "bottom line" ie - always the very bottom dog in each generation .... for example, I had a male who is a direct male line descendant of Marko Cellarland.....


Cito Wolfstraum, by Xito Maineiche, by Ex Maineiche, by Xento Maineiche, by Oldo Maineiche, by Marko Cellarland.....

theoretically, the genetics are influenced more specifically by dogs in certain positions....

and if you think this is complex - Dosage in Thoroughbreds is even more convoluted!

Look for a pup whose dam is not WGSL close up

Lee


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

FWIW...The Amulree kennel is more known for "character" than looks in the show world...

*Scary to think the opinions that will float around when I incorporate SL to WL...*


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Amulree was the kennel name of Mike Worrell's wife/family....Mike owned Gump and his sire Troll Milinda

I know that occasionally SL breeders will bring in a working dog or vice versa and keep back from that litter to incorporate into their program....I don't think the litters are as consistent and that it will take a few generations to get that back..unfortunately way too many commercial breeders do the mix just to sell pups, doing it just to do it without a long term commitment to developing a line. Alot of the Stribrneho Kamene dogs are from Bemoan Bee - who is a show cross, and Chuck Dorneberger Bach is part SL as well.....

Lee


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Lee...I can't see it being a "selling factor" combining the bloodlines...?
Many look at it as "the plague"......I of course will do it for myself, and will keep whelps for our future breeding program....but I'm/we're looking generations ahead also.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

no - not a selling factor - but if you are doing it for yourself with plans, I understand the reasoning....as a WL breeder, I will use functionally correct and "V" working males...but no plans to bring SL in for myself...have seen some SL breeders do, not keeping anything....apparently, they were not happy enough with what they got to incorporate it into their program

Lee


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think, like with any breeding...a breeder has to have goals..
I love both bloodlines and want & expect the same from them....nothing is better than a solid, sound, stable GSD...capable of working....be it WL or SL.

*I'm definitely going to try with the combination of lines....we'll see where it leads in about 6-7 yrs down the line.*


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Anywho, the draw to this breeding is the extremely strong sire. in what ways might he dam influence/mix/etc? How might the offspring be?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Hunterisgreat....Brongo has a very very nice pedigree for the dual purpose of sport or work. He is a super dog himself, carrying very strong drives, grips, and nerve, as I have seen with many Czech dogs but missed by many sport people. He is a nice looking dog. I have analyzed his pedigree for others and like what I see, but he must be bred to a very strong nerved dog genetically, in my opinion. Still, we have yet to see what he will produce so I might be wrong.
@ Robin....understand your point and desires, but usually when I comment on a pedigree I look at it from the point of view of what the overall picture and majority of pups will look like. Not necessarily the immediate parents. In other words the genetics primarily. (Because 8 pups will come from litter and sure you may get one like what you want...but trust me the genetics will have more influence on a majority of the pups than just the outward expression of the parents) In this case the showline in the mother's mother position has huge influence in genetics. Not only is the dog all showline( though some good SL in Nick and Uran temperamentwise), but the dog is almost 1/2 Brittish/NZ showlines. Sorry, but I have never known the Brittish or down under showlines to be bastions of temperament. So looking at the genetic base upon which this dog is built, the showline influence is too much and too close for my taste genetically. Notwithstanding, when some of the pups come out with the nervebase of the showlines and the drive of Troll, or the aggression of Honza, well....we have seen that pic before. JMO...no more no less....that an 26 cents might get ya a cup of coffee.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last thing, I am not in any way knocking this dog as a fine animal or working dog or pet. Since this is the BREEDERS section, I tend to give opinions based on the overall perspective from a genetic and producing point of view. You have showlines that are great working dogs, you have workinglines with great conformation, both can be fabulous family pets and the treasures of the owners life. Just when it comes to breeding and projecting what you will get....you have to look at the overall picture based on the probabilties.AJMO.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

So are you saying look for a very strong female to complement brongos strength and nerves, or is nerves of the dam of top importance because brongo will bring the power, and can't risk weak nerves and huge power in the pups? Trying to understand?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

reading cliffs notes, I am INFERRING that in Bonzo's pedigree there is a genetic element that COULD pass on a nerve problem, thus you MUST have a totally solid strong nerved female to compensate for that risk!!!! 

Also - I am INFERRING that there have been some Bonzo pups lacking in correct, desireable nerve strength, but that Cliff does not see that the dams pedigrees have the desired genetics for nerve strength, thus does not know for sure if Bonzo can overcome genetic nerve weakness from the dam's pedigree.

Therefore, I conclude that you must find a litter from an absolutely solid female with a solid pedigree to be more likely to get a solid nerved litter/puppy and that there is a risk, albeit much smaller, of nerve issues from somewhere back in Bonzo's lines. 

MY CONCLUSION based on how **I** interpret Cliff's post.

Lee


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> reading cliffs notes, I am INFERRING that in Bonzo's pedigree there is a genetic element that COULD pass on a nerve problem, thus you MUST have a totally solid strong nerved female to compensate for that risk!!!!
> 
> Also - I am INFERRING that there have been some Bonzo pups lacking in correct, desireable nerve strength, but that Cliff does not see that the dams pedigrees have the desired genetics for nerve strength, thus does not know for sure if Bonzo can overcome genetic nerve weakness from the dam's pedigree.
> 
> ...


So that being said, how good of a picture can one get from the pups that are already on the ground? The desire is to have a very strong nerved dog, that is aloof, but very strong in protection and schh3 material (not to mention, I don't want a dog I have to worry about attacking me, my dogs, or houseguests/property passers-by). I know brongo is strong nerved, so is it fair to say that at least some of the pups should also be strong nerved?

Keep in mind, roommate isn't trying to select the next world champion.. he's never done schutz before, so if the dog is 95% instead of 100%... well thats not going to make a big difference given the handler's experience regardless of the help he is given.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Lee, No, I find nothing wrong with the pedigree for Brongo in terms of nerve strength and know the lines very well and have owned the lines myself. The nerve issues I would have concern with come from showline side. Though you could get a little nerviness through Lord, generally when mixed with West working, you got pretty sound stuff. There is a lot of power and strength of temperament and drives through Troll and Honza. You must have underlying nerve strength to handle this....I know you know that Lee, but my concern isn't with Brongo at all. Also, teeth, testicles, and hips have to be looked at carefully in a breeding(now you can infer). 
Anyway, this male may be a super producer, and I could be way off base.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Hunter, I am sure you will get the type of puppy your roommate wants out of this breeding....you just have to select the right puppy.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Hunter, I am sure you will get the type of puppy your roommate wants out of this breeding....you just have to select the right puppy.


So when we request and get all these pedigree "assessments", is there any idea of how well it translates to actual observed dogs? Are people usually slightly off, sometimes way off? Of course, there are no promises in any breeding, only educated guesses. Do you find that with the some breedings the pupps are all quite simliar, whereas in other breedings the span in pup to pup temperment, drive, etc is much wider?

One of the nice parts about this breeding is the ability to go see the dogs, and the fact that the breeder will be in quite regular contact with me and my roommate.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think what Lee and I were trying to tell you were that you would get a variety of temperaments and structural differences because of the genetics. If you breed two cookie cutters together , obviously you would get much more uniformity in type and temperament. Analyzing pedigrees is always an educated guess, but educated guesses are off consistently, then they really aren't too educated.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

when you do a breeding you try to have more complementary (similar) characteristics than compensatory.....then you get consistency in the litter - both Cliff and I see is not enough complementary factors on paper....

therefore - the litter probably will not be as consistent as a pure working litter, more inconsistent from pup to pup....and yes, you may get a pup who is expressing more from the sire, maybe - hopefully more of the pups will show the sire's influence, and maybe only 1 or 2 show the negatives we are concerned over...those are the ones to avoid.

Cliff - with 2 litters coming down from a 2-5,5 Lord female - all have had good hips, all males have had both testicles....strong strong nerve strength and tracking ability (one of the C's is a border patrol State Trooper who was just written up in their monthly state magazine for catching a big load of drugs) and definitely not sport/prey dogs...the best of Lord's genetics so far...

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It is an attempt , I guess, to move the entire pedigree forward into a stronger work and nerve position . The achilles is the dams bottom line , being all show , untested for work , progeny from generations not having proven themselves for work.
You can be in a position with conflict in drives. Great desire to fight, conflicted with desire to go into flight . You never know which will win . 

I would prefer to know that this dog will be in for the fight , stay in , deal with it , come out clear .

Or at the least know that this dog will go into flight , not even try to fight or defend , avoid conflict . I am talking about pet owners -- NOT for myself -- avoidance is a big problem. 

It is the indecisive worried animal who would like to "flight" but can't , so will "fight" and then come out of it not clear and balanced but with issues, wanting to avoid a situation or environment - a pre emptive flight or avoidance. 

Ideally breeding animals should be more similar with MAINTENANCE of drive or temperament rather that very different in an attempt to create drive or temperament or compensate for problems.
this is where best to best comes in .
does that make sense 

Carmen


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Lee, I agree on Lord, he is not the dog in the pedigree I have concern with for the items listed, we're on the same page.
@ Carmspack....


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I think I understand 90% of what was said. Lol certainly is a language associated with this pedigree stuff


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You really want to know pedigrees???/ Go out to trials and shows and see these dogs, get your self in a training club and see these terms in action, go to seminars not only for the information, but usually there are many people attending who have dogs out of these studs/dams that you will be able to see/associate the differences/strengths/negatives. THEN when us people start talking traits and terms the light will go on and it will start to make sense. Find yourself a mentor who is willing to talk to you for hours(and it doesn't have to be phone, it could be your training club), about dogs past and present. (When I talk to say Carmen/Chris/Christine, we start out talking about dogs with certain GIVENS that are already known and we help each other fill in the blanks from what new info we have gleaned. Its a lifestyle in a sense, and there just isn't a shortcut because without the experience and explanations from in person dialogue, you can't reach the essence of "feel" for what are red flags. You can always tell a person who has been in the breed for a minute, read a couple books, and has limited experience in working and breeding. THEIR red flags are usually things that are quantifiable and the easiest things to avoid and correct. Yet, they make it like its the bain of breeding. When some of us old timers talk we always laugh about how so many people think perfect hips, and perfect color, and perfect croup, is the basis of breeding for some people. Most of these sharp breeders don't even weigh in on these threads cause they feel foolish arguing with someone who has limited experience. Nothing wrong with educating those with limited experience, but arguing with someone that doesn't know and doesn't know they don't know????? That's insanity, and sometimes I am guilty of this to my own chagrin!
If you really don't have this kind of time for this kind of investment, you shouldn't be breeding, and there's no reason to be a pedigree geek...lol.
peace.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> You really want to know pedigrees???/ Go out to trials and shows and see these dogs, get your self in a training club and see these terms in action, go to seminars not only for the information, but usually there are many people attending who have dogs out of these studs/dams that you will be able to see/associate the differences/strengths/negatives. THEN when us people start talking traits and terms the light will go on and it will start to make sense. Find yourself a mentor who is willing to talk to you for hours(and it doesn't have to be phone, it could be your training club), about dogs past and present. (When I talk to say Carmen/Chris/Christine, we start out talking about dogs with certain GIVENS that are already known and we help each other fill in the blanks from what new info we have gleaned. Its a lifestyle in a sense, and there just isn't a shortcut because without the experience and explanations from in person dialogue, you can't reach the essence of "feel" for what are red flags. You can always tell a person who has been in the breed for a minute, read a couple books, and has limited experience in working and breeding. THEIR red flags are usually things that are quantifiable and the easiest things to avoid and correct. Yet, they make it like its the bain of breeding. When some of us old timers talk we always laugh about how so many people think perfect hips, and perfect color, and perfect croup, is the basis of breeding for some people. Most of these sharp breeders don't even weigh in on these threads cause they feel foolish arguing with someone who has limited experience. Nothing wrong with educating those with limited experience, but arguing with someone that doesn't know and doesn't know they don't know????? That's insanity, and sometimes I am guilty of this to my own chagrin!
> If you really don't have this kind of time for this kind of investment, you shouldn't be breeding, and there's no reason to be a pedigree geek...lol.
> peace.


If there is something I cannot be accused of, it is not being open to other points of view. I believe one of my personal best qualities is to be able to view and assess things objectively. I can put my emotions, ego, etc on the shelf and learn, even about those subjects I'm most knowledgeable about.

Regarding language, I just mean language in terms of "coming down from a 2-5,5 Lord female"... which I am guessing meaning something about line breeding on Lord? And phrases like "dam out" or "sire out"... these aren't phrases used in training so I am unfamiliar. The terms used in training as well I understand pretty well. Its the pedigree specific language that I don't really understand.

I actually am part of a club, and actually do have a few mentors. My interest in learning pedigrees isn't to be a breeder, but rather better select dogs in the future. I've got no illusions that will come from reading a book or two, or having someone explain it to me in an hour... which is why I'm asking these questions now. I've got 2 dogs, ones not even 2 years. Barring something horrible, it will be some time before I get another dog. In the same spirit, I'm currently being mentored in helper work. I don't honestly have any interest in every being a trail helper (though I'll probably end up certified), but primarily in better understanding my own dogs, and knowing what to tell a helper working my dog what my dog and I want, vice having the helper tell me.

I've got the dedication to learn. SchH is pretty much my lifestyle and primary hobby. My backyard is A-frames, platforms, blinds, and jumps... and I live in the suburbs (bet the neighbors don't like that too much lol).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good for you!!! you are on the right path,IMO!!!!


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