# BH obedience lax standards?



## codmaster

So I was at my first BH evaluation this past weekend. As a long time AKC obedience participant, I was MOST surprised at the very low standards for passing the BH obedience exise.

So I figured to ask and see if this is expected and usual or did we just happen to get a very lenient judge. (Which could and does happen in any dog sport, of course).

For example, 2 of the dogs broke their long down stay at the side of the field while the other dog was working 4 times each and started walking over to their handlers. Each passed easily!

A couple of other dogs literally ran around 15-25 feet away from their handlers on the off leash exercise and did return but repeated it a few times each. All passed as well.

Etc. Etc.


Usual?


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## cliffson1

What you describe does seem lenient, but it still has to be viewed in the context of the overall performance. There is only so many points assigned to long down and heeling in the Judges assessment. Though BH is pass/fail in way reported, the judge evaluates all aspects in relation to whether the dog is ready to go on. There is also the off field aspect dealing with traffic and other dogs. Like I said it does sound lenient, but without a complete picture of what the dogs did I really could'nt judge. I know when I go up for a long down those items you mentioned are the least of my concerns.


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## BlackPuppy

Gosh, breaking a stay in AKC would be an immediately fail. I know, been there.  Have a dog that likes to lay down on the sit stay.


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## cliffson1

Yeah, but does AKC have the down with distractions in front of the dog, like another dog team working, or in the Sch one and above having another team through objects to be retreived????? It is very easy to teach a dog to just stay with no distractions......have things moving and being thrown and you really test the stay or down!


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## Zisso

I did hear that the BH exercise was recently changed to be more lax.


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## lhczth

The BH is primarily a temperament test. The dog must show basic control, an understanding of the exercises and do well enough to pass. The dog leaving the handler during the off lead heeling could have lead to the dog failing under some judges due to a lack of control. 

SchH is not AKC. AKC is entirely judged on points. The temperament, attitude, and character of the dog is not considered as long as the exercises are performed correctly (and the dog does not bite the judge, growl, or attack anther dog). In SchH because these things do matter and it is not just about points, failing one exercise only loses you those points for that exercise. In the long down a dog can receive partial points for staying through a certain stage of the other dog's routine.


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## Zisso

So does this mean if one was to take the BH in AKC they could fail but doing the exact same thing in a SchH BH could pass?


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## elisabeth_00117

But isn't the BH test suppose to focus more on the temperament of the dog being tested rather than the obedience.

Not saying that the obedience portion should be written off or anything, obviously it is incorporating obedience drills (hello! look at all that heeling!) but I always look at the BH as a test in the dogs temperament. Ensuring he/she can handle different situations (traffic portion, walking through group, etc.).

I just think of it as a prerequisite of the ultimate obedience test which would be the schH titles.

Dunno. JMO.


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## lhczth

Zisso said:


> So does this mean if one was to take the BH in AKC they could fail but doing the exact same thing in a SchH BH could pass?


Yes, just like a there are a lot of dogs who do AKC that would fail the BH (due to temperament).


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## Freestep

AKC obedience is reaaalllly nit-picky. You can get points off for the dog not being in the exactly correct position, if sits are crooked, "crowding" during heeling, while the Bh does not seem to care so much about that kind of thing. Like the others said, it's more of a temperament test than an obedience trial. Although the trial mentioned does seem particularly lenient.


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## Samba

I have done or do both venues. I don't think of the BH and AKC obedience titles in the same vein. Two different venues with different rules and purposes.


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## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> Yeah, but does AKC have the down with distractions in front of the dog, like another dog team working, or in the Sch one and above having another team through objects to be retreived????? It is very easy to teach a dog to just stay with no distractions......have things moving and being thrown and you really test the stay or down!


 
If you have ever been to an AKC obedience trial, then you would know that there are a wide range of distractions usually present. 

These include people and dogs sitting right at ringside, and the ring is usually just a rope on some posts. People have their dogs and kids right there with them. Not to mention, unlike at the BH trial which only had one very very large ring in use, most AKC trials have multiple obedience/Rally or even conformation rings side by side with the obedience ring. And those dogs could easily be running and jumping, etc. as well.So my guess is that in an AKC obedience trial the distraction level is MUCH higher than in the BH (at least in the one I was at, anyway). 

And just one move/get up from a down stay in the Obedience ring is a NQ! or running around when heeling off lead is a DQ as well i believe.

Hence my belief that AKC obedience is much stricter scoring. And my question about the BH.


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## codmaster

Oh, and the Down in the Open class is out of sight of the handler, but not in the Novice class. Would you consider out of sight to be an additional distraction?


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## Samba

I find AKC obed very often a very high level of distraction. You can be nose to nuts with dogs one after the other. A dumbell can be thrown within feet of your dog. Dogs may be running and jumping within feet of your performance. I do welcome the vast and virtual aloneness of the BH field!


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## codmaster

Samba said:


> I have done or do both venues. I don't think of the BH and AKC obedience titles in the same vein. Two different venues with different rules and purposes.


 
Very much so as i am finding out.


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## holland

Ok maybe people can explain a couple of things to me that I am not understanding Schutzhund is not about the points...but if you get 70 70 70 in each phase you earn your schutzhund I-you can't go on to your 2 because you need 80 in protection So schutzhund is not about the points Sorry am not getting it. And whether you are in schutzhund or in AKC obedience a happy animated dog is a happy animated dog and I am sure that that has some impact on an AKC judge and how they award points. You don't think there are distractions in AKC -have you been to an AKC show-what is happening in the other rings. And while temperment might not actually be judged in AKC doesn't it say something when a dog is in a very crowded venue When I see mals participating in AKC it says something to me about their temperment No I don't think schutzhund is the ultimate I think that anyone who puts an OTCH on their dog has definitely accomplished something. I get that people might prefer schutzhund over AKC (well actually I don't get that) but some of the things being said in this thread are really ridiculous Oh and I have seen people achieve their BH when the dog blows the down -I don't get it. But more and more when I train I just try to focus on whether I am happy with how my dog is doing. And I believe that there are some really good trainers in AKC


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## codmaster

What would be really cool would be to see a CH, UDT, ScH3 titled dog. 

Anybody know of any with all three titles?


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## Samba

I do lots of AKC, but I have never experienced an enjoyment comparable to the of doing schutzhund with a dog well capable of it in AKC.

I myself can understand the preference. I know which my GSD boy would pick. Perhaps my enjoyment is directly related to his.


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## bocron

I've never seen a dog pass the BH that broke the down. I'd say in the last 15+ years I've seen a dozen or more dogs fail because of that one thing. (I've seen fails for other things, too, but more for breaking the down).


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## codmaster

bocron said:


> I've never seen a dog pass the BH that broke the down. I'd say in the last 15+ years I've seen a dozen or more dogs fail because of that one thing. (I've seen fails for other things, too, but more for breaking the down).


 
Maybe, as someone has said, the BH rules makers have loosened the requirements for the BH? 

Certainly their right to do so in order to better achieve the objectives of the test.


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## holland

I doubt that it has become more lax-judging is subjective and I saw this years ago


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## Freestep

holland said:


> And whether you are in schutzhund or in AKC obedience a happy animated dog is a happy animated dog and I am sure that that has some impact on an AKC judge and how they award points.


Actually, in my experience, AKC doesn't particularly like a "happy animated" dog. They seem to prefer precision over attitude. I once saw a very slow, head-down sort of performance in Novice place over a happy, enthusiastic one, because the slow dog was very correct; not a foot out of place. The happy dog was dinged for "crowding" and "forging" during the heeling, and I am not sure if he was dinged for the little leap he did during the finish, but he almost hit the handler's nose!

And yes, there are many SchH3 dogs with AKC obedience titles! My dogs' breeder alone has had a bunch of them...


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## holland

Well in my experience I did see a dog pass its BH and totally blew the down really not too impressive


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## holland

Actually come to think of it my dog blew the down at the last trial ...but we did not pass so...I am done with the schutzhund thread


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## BlackPuppy

cliffson1 said:


> Yeah, but does AKC have the down with distractions in front of the dog, like another dog team working,


Yes, usually there is an adjacent ring with dogs doing retrieves over jumps, plus at a show at fairgrounds, there were people walking past and sitting by the ring eating hotdogs. I'd call that a major distraction. 

Another dog team working isn't much of a distraction. UKC obedience does that in it's novice level obedience. We've been doing it in Rally obedience for years.

BH is sounding really easy.


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## ayoitzrimz

holland said:


> Actually come to think of it my dog blew the down at the last trial ...but we did not pass so...I am done with the schutzhund thread


Good! We dont need you anyway! 

Jk, but really, Holland - stop bashing Schutzhund just because you couldn't do it. A lot of us have failed at things but we don't turn around and bash them because of it.

Schutzhund has different emphasis than AKC. Also let's remember that Schutzhund BH is just the test before the test sort of - what would you compare it to? the AKC novice? I can't imagine an AKC trained dog I'd rather have over a schutzhund 3 dog if both were trained correctly but its just my opinion.

And by the way, I train for both but I personally like the attitude of a schutzhund dog over those of some of the AKC dogs I've seen - although I have seen some fancy obedience at the utility level


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## Zahnburg

BlackPuppy said:


> BH is sounding really easy.


It is for a dog of sound character. The BH is not a title, it is just the annoying thing you have to do before you can title your dog. It is intended to weed out dogs that have charcter flaws that make them unfit for schutzhund.


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## ayoitzrimz

Freestep said:


> Actually, in my experience, AKC doesn't particularly like a "happy animated" dog. They seem to prefer precision over attitude. I once saw a very slow, head-down sort of performance in Novice place over a happy, enthusiastic one, because the slow dog was very correct; not a foot out of place. The happy dog was dinged for "crowding" and "forging" during the heeling, and I am not sure if he was dinged for the little leap he did during the finish, but he almost hit the handler's nose!
> 
> And yes, there are many SchH3 dogs with AKC obedience titles! My dogs' breeder alone has had a bunch of them...


I see this too. Much more emphasis on being correct even if they are slow and hesitant. Some of these dogs look like they've been trained with zero rewards and nothing but compulsion from day one. But then again I'm sure that's more of an owner / trainer fault than the system.


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## onyx'girl

I train in SchH and have been recently training with an AKC trainer/competitor to help me with my handling/footwork skills(and the use of her barn in the winter)
She was one of the compulsion based/ low value reward(cookies) and yes the emphasis on correct is there. She's seen how I train with drive building and capping, rewarding the dog often and has now changed her program to do more of what the ScH trainers do.
Though her dogs(golden field retrievers) have always looked animated and happy on the course.


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## Jason L

Zahnburg said:


> The BH is not a title, it is just the annoying thing you have to do before you can title your dog. It is intended to weed out dogs that have charcter flaws that make them unfit for schutzhund.


I agree with this. BH is not a title. It's a precursor to titles.


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## gagsd

I have seen dogs pass a BH that "I" felt should not. I think we newer people are more nit-picky on the actual test items. It is easier to see a blatant missed-the-sit-in-motion, than to notice the issues with temperament.

IMO, it also depends on the event hoster. If it is a group that pays a trainer, and the trainer brings his/her judge in.... things may be more lax than if it is a club bringing in a judge for a cmpetitive trial. Again, keep in mind, JMO. I have seen the same thing in AKC events. Whoever the hosting organization/person is, they often have a tendency to bring in a judge favorable to their "style."

If interested here is the judge's scoresheet for the BH. A team needs 42 points to continue to the traffic portion. So yes, you could miss the long down, and still pass.
http://germanshepherddog.com/members/forms/BHJudgesSheet_web.pdf


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## crackem

why are we comparing a temperment test with obedience titles? It's like saying I saw an AKC CGC certification and it looked very easy. I must say the standards appear to be very low compared to the schutzhund trial I just did.

They aren't even the same thing.

and yes a dog can pass for breaking a long down.


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## GSDElsa

Agreed.....why is a bh and an akc obedience title even being compared?


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## codmaster

Samba said:


> I do lots of AKC, but I have never experienced an enjoyment comparable to the of doing schutzhund with a dog well capable of it in AKC.
> 
> I myself can understand the preference. I know which my GSD boy would pick. Perhaps my enjoyment is directly related to his.


Other than some differences in the details, the only real difference between AKC and ScH stuff is the bitework.

I can certainly see that most dogs would really enjoy that aspect of training a lot. Esp. as they seem to do it in our local club - like a big game not with the dog thinking that he/she is fighting for their lives.


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## lhczth

I have done both and I train with AKC people, very good multiple OTCH AKC people with very happy dogs, on a regular basis. I will never say that obtaining an OTCH or even a UD is simple or an easy endeavor. Far from it, BUT, many many dogs do this who lack temperament, lack drive and whose handlers spend YEARS working to overcome their dog's issues. The jumps are lower, the expectations, other than for correctness, is lower. It is 100% about points. Yes, there are environmental issues that the dogs must face (part of the reason why I train in this environment) and I have watched people train for years and years, failing trial after trial after trial until they finally get a leg. 

Comparing SchH obedience to AKC obedience and even AKC tracking really is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, points are awarded in both venues (obviously not in AKC tracking), but that is where the similarities end. One is only about points and the skill of the trainer. The other is also about the character, nerve, working ability and, about the dog. 

For example the differences..... Vala tends to tag me when I change speeds. The SchH judges like it. They like how pushy she is, the drive she shows, her character. In the AKC ring I could very well be disqualified because the judge would view this as aggression. This is why she will never do AKC (I have talked to several AKC OB judges about this and decided not to waste my money). 

The biggest difference, as Codmaster points out, is the protection phase and, sorry, that is a HUGE difference and to not understand this is to not understand our breed. This is why the point epectations in protection are higher and 80pts is required for breeding (if you pay attention to SV rules) and to continue on to the SchH2/IPO2.


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## Samba

Isn't there something other than a big game versus a fighting for your life? I am thinking there is. It is just that serious fight that my dog enjoys. I don't think he feels he is in a life or death struggle because of the cofidence that has been built but it is also not just a game with a playmate on a sleeve.

He,he, Lisa! Gala was a "tagger". One AKC judge let me heel the entire pattern taking hits because he found it so funny. He was a good natured man and having fun. But, mostly, AKC does not have appreciation for the spirit of the dog. It is not mentioned in the rules. It is an evaluation of a performance by the rules and not an evaluation of the dog. I have had a number of AKC judges comment on my dogs attitude, enthusiasm and happiness to work. It doesn 't go to the points and I have been beaten by tail tuckers because exactness wins each time.


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## middleofnowhere

BH as stated is NOT a title. It's a test the handler and dog have to pass before they can move along to try for a title. 
As far as DVG goes, the JUDGES choose where they will judge, not the club or sponsoring organization. DVG Clubs do NOT "bring in their judge". I don't know squat about USA.


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## Whiskey Six

Zahnburg said:


> It is for a dog of sound character. The BH is not a title, it is just the annoying thing you have to do before you can title your dog. It is intended to weed out dogs that have character flaws that make them unfit for schutzhund.


 EXACTLY! A BH is not a title. It is simply a "suitability" test for continued trialing in Shutzhund. It is usually given to young dogs (15 months) that are just starting out. It is a pass or fail test to determine if the dog is trainable, controllable and social enough to trial. You can't compare a BH to an AKC CD.


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## gagsd

middleofnowhere said:


> BH as stated is NOT a title. It's a test the handler and dog have to pass before they can move along to try for a title.
> As far as DVG goes, the JUDGES choose where they will judge, not the club or sponsoring organization. DVG Clubs do NOT "bring in their judge". I don't know squat about USA.


I did not know that about DVG. Interesting. The UScA and AKC events I have had knowledge of, have brought in judges.


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## onyx'girl

I think the BH is more of a test of the handler than the dog. The handler also has to do a written test. If they don't have the dog controlled or trained enough to do what is asked of in the test, then they don't go on to the next level. 
The trial where I did my test had a few dogs fail. It wasn't the dogs fault, but the handlers. Well, one dog decided to go out of the group and pee on the judge, but again, the handler just stood by and watched~so handler's fault. I think that really tested the judge.


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## BlackPuppy

Whiskey Six said:


> EXACTLY! A BH is not a title. It is simply a "suitability" test for continued trialing in Shutzhund.


Wow, really! You have do down and sit out of motion just to show you are suitable? You'd think if you can train a down out of motion that you can train a simple stay. 

I was going to get one for Balto, but if it's just a little test and not a title, I'll just skip it. Balto would be an excellent SchH dog, but he has hip dysplasia, and I'm trying not to stress him.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> I think the BH is more of a test of the handler than the dog. *The handler also has to do a written test*. If they don't have the *dog controlled or trained enough to do what is asked of in the test*, then they don't go on to the next level.
> The trial where I did my test had a few dogs fail. It wasn't the dogs fault, but the handlers. Well, one dog decided to go out of the group and pee on the judge, but again, the handler just stood by and watched~so handler's fault. I think that really tested the judge.


 
I never saw a written test in the trial I was at. (WDA)

I guess that is a subjective opinion - to me a dog who gets up 4 times in a down stay and walks toward the handler is not controlled enough for me and should never have passed.


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## codmaster

BlackPuppy said:


> Wow, really! You have do down and sit out of motion just to show you are suitable? You'd think if you can train a down out of motion that you can train a simple stay.
> 
> ...............


Exactly! The BH sure does seem like a test of control *and obedience* to me - on the surface and in the written regulations, at any rate.

But the groups will judge it as they choose - just intersting to find out.


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## onyx'girl

WDA doesn't require a written test. UScA does. I agree a dog that breaks the down is not obedient. 
When I did my test the dog doing the down was rolling around and finally the judge asked the handler to pick up her dog. There were other things that caused her to fail, but the down was blown. I was happy that the dog wasn't aggressive, because I have seen dogs break the down and rush another dog(in trials, not the BH) scary!
Karlo's mother was rushed 2 or three different times and attacked at least once during trials. This was obviously after the dog passed the BH.
The judge that I tested under was not giving points freely, and if you weren't worthy of passing you didn't. The way it should be.


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## codmaster

crackem said:


> why are we comparing a temperment test with obedience titles? It's like saying I saw an *AKC CGC certification and it looked very easy. I must say the standards appear to be very low compared to the schutzhund trial I just did.*
> They aren't even the same thing. and yes a dog can pass for breaking a long down.


 
*Exactly the point.* The BH is like the CGC - VERY easy to pass either one with an only partially trained dog as long as the dog is not aggressive to dog or person! The AKC CGC, by the way, is really intended for puppies.

*How about a dog breaking the stay 4 Times in the same event?* Trained enough to go on in your opinion?

The judges quotes in the evaluation for all of these dogs and I quote.

"Are these dogs ready for ScH1 - heII No!"

I had thought that was the idea of the BH evaluation but I guess I was mistaken in that.


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## codmaster

GSDElsa said:


> Agreed.....why is a bh and an akc obedience title even being compared?


 
Why not? It appears that many of the exercises are very similar, aren't they? 

Seems like a lot of folks could really do both with their dogs, couldn't they? I am doing both with a little Rally thrown in for good measure and the resulting in-the-ring practice.

It does seem like the major difference is in the expectations of performance and the resulting judging approaches. 

If one adds the AKC CGC to the Novice AKC CD obedience, then they certainly appear to be very similar to me. Don't they to you?

If not, then where would they be a lot different?


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## Samba

The rules, the expectations and the purpose of the test are different, I guess. 

But they both involve dogs, and training and some evaluation.


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## Liesje

I do not think breaking a long down is automatic failure. I don't think you automatically fail a BH (or SchH1 for that matter) for one "insufficient" exercise.

To me these things are what you make of it. I am training a young dog right now who is now old enough for his BH and could easily do it but I don't train for a BH and then train for a SchH1, and then 2....no, I train for the SchH3 and train for the final picture I want to show at the highest level I aspire to with that dog and for my young dog I hope to do a regional competition someday so that is how he heels *right now*, the way I want him to look a year or so from now when we hopefully can enter a regional level competition. For some people, just getting the BH is what they dream of. We watched a man earn his first Sch3 and he has some significant health problems. I heard when he passed the BH with that dog he teared up. That was a huge accomplishment for that team and their club, who am I to sit here and say "oh it's just a watered down test". We can all sit on our butts at our computers and harp on this test or that test or these dogs we don't know but does it matter? If you want your dog to score a perfect BH, fine go out there and do one. If not then who cares what other people do?


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## codmaster

Freestep said:


> Actually, in my experience, AKC doesn't *particularly like a "happy animated" dog.* They seem to prefer precision over attitude. I once saw a very slow, head-down sort of performance in Novice place over a happy, enthusiastic one, because the slow dog was very correct; not a foot out of place. *The happy dog was dinged for "crowding" and "forging" during the heeling,* and I am not sure if he was dinged for the little leap he did during the finish, but *he almost hit the handler's nose!*
> 
> And yes, there are *many SchH3 dogs with AKC obedience titles!* My dogs' breeder alone has had a bunch of them...


Let's see.

Many AKC judges do like this very much and it can and does help your score, BUT the exercises do have to be done correctly according to the printed rules and regulations or there should be points deducted. Do you agree with this? Or should a happy fast but very out of place SIT score as well as one that is correct according to the rules in either ScH or AKC? Should a very happy enthusiastic dog who gets up and runs very fast and happily over to its handler score a perfect on a down stay? 

AKC rules specifically and explicitly state that Forging and Crowding are faults and should be penalized according to their degree and frequency - would you disagree with this and expect a compentent judge to ignore them?

There was a ScH3 dog in the trial who was extremely attentive and enthusastic heeling but contunually bumped the handler and almost was walking sideways with his face stuck looking at the handler. Very enthusastic but very awkward looking - I assume that this is ok and maybe even to be trained for in ScH?????

So not only did the dog leap but also snapped at the handlers face? (almost bit the handlers nose). 

And finally do any of the "many" dogs that you mentioned *also have the AKC CH title* that I included in my earlier question? Or maybe even a CH from some other reputable organization. 

Remember isn't correct structure also part of the "Total GSD" that all breeders and owners should be striving for?


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## bocron

When I think back to all the dogs I've seen fail that blew the long down, I'm not saying that the long down was cited as an automatic fail. What it seemed to me was that all the dogs that I saw and paid attention to that broke the down also were pretty well unprepared as far as the rest of the obedience from what I recall. There were a few that did ok obedience, and fell apart on the temperament test, and the breaking of the down was obviously a confidence thing in those. Bad nerve has always been a deal breaker in my experience, and the breaking of the down for that reason was just the straw that broke the camels back.


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## GSDElsa

codmaster said:


> Why not? It appears that many of the exercises are very similar, aren't they?
> 
> Seems like a lot of folks could really do both with their dogs, couldn't they? I am doing both with a little Rally thrown in for good measure and the resulting in-the-ring practice.
> 
> It does seem like the major difference is in the expectations of performance and the resulting judging approaches.
> 
> If one adds the AKC CGC to the Novice AKC CD obedience, then they certainly appear to be very similar to me. Don't they to you?
> 
> If not, then where would they be a lot different?


Because the BH is a temperment test that has elements of OB in it as one aspect to prove that. It is pass/fail to be able to go onto gettin TITLES in the sport of SChH.

An AKC title is just that. A title. A BH is a temperment test. Much harder than a CGC, butt he same idea.


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> AKC rules specifically and explicitly state that Forging and Crowding are faults and should be penalized according to their degree and frequency - would you disagree with this and expect a compentent judge to ignore them?
> 
> There was a ScH3 dog in the trial who was extremely attentive and enthusastic heeling but contunually bumped the handler and almost was walking sideways with his face stuck looking at the handler. Very enthusastic but very awkward looking - I assume that this is ok and maybe even to be trained for in ScH?????


There is more leniency as far as the style. Within SchH there is a huge spectrum of how people train and evaluate heeling. You will see dogs that forge and wrap so bad they are basically heeling at an angle, dogs that pay little attention to the handler and just sort of walk nonchalantly, dogs that never blink their eyes from the handler's armpit and prance the entire time, and everything in between. If you don't like a particular style, OK fine don't train your dog that way. I cannot stand forging and crowding (but I have one dog that does it, and he in fact got High Obedience at his Schutzhund trial, huh) so I spent way more time on my younger dog determined not to end up with this again. I've got a very clear picture in my head of what *I* want *my* dogs to look like from now on. As far as the judging goes, the judge is really considering the overall picture. Often a score in any phase will not necessarily be a point-for-point match of all the mistakes tallied up.


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## Liesje

FWIW I have not done a CD and to me it seems more difficult than doing a BH with either of my SchH dogs.


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## codmaster

Liesje said:


> There is more leniency as far as the style. Within SchH there is a huge spectrum of how people train and evaluate heeling. You will see dogs that forge and wrap so bad they are basically heeling at an angle, dogs that pay little attention to the handler and just sort of walk nonchalantly, dogs that never blink their eyes from the handler's armpit and prance the entire time, and everything in between. If you don't like a particular style, OK fine don't train your dog that way. I cannot stand forging and crowding (but I have one dog that does it, and he in fact got High Obedience at his Schutzhund trial, huh) so I spent way more time on my younger dog determined not to end up with this again. I've got a very clear picture in my head of what *I* want *my* dogs to look like from now on. *As far as the judging goes, the judge is really considering the overall picture. Often a score in any phase will not necessarily be a point-for-point match of all the mistakes tallied up.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks, I was not aware of this option for ScH judges - is this true in all ScH groups like WDA and USA or is it a general SV rule?
> 
> How would a judge handle the points - just by ignoring a mistake that would call for a point deduction in the official rules for that exercise?
> 
> Wow, the option for ScH judges to judge by "*not necessarily be a point-for-point match of all the mistakes tallied up' *would suggest to me that a prospective handler looking to win had better study the judges (just like in the US AKC conformation ring) to be able to pick the judges that are known by their work to be lenient in the exercises or scoring that you and your dog might be a little weaker in.
> 
> So you could get a failing score point wise, based on your and your dog's performance, according to the official rules in Tracking and/or Obedience and/or Protection and the judge could pass you anyway? What would the scorebook record as your score in this trial if the judge disregards your actual earned score? I guess that the judge would just not count all of the mistakes so you would get a passing score??


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## Liesje

There's not a concise, spell-out point deduction schedule for every possible mistake. From what I've seen, depending on what the dog does, the judge can deduct between a certain amount of points. The judge doesn't have to ignore mistakes because there is already a certain amount of discretion built in to how the sport is scored. It's just how it is and how it has always been, regardless of how the AKC or anyone else scores dogs. This also gets more towards the other thread about different levels of titles or events being judged differently. For example, something that a judge would not even bother noticing for a SchH1 at a club trial might be a half a point off for SchH3 dogs at the WUSV.

Besides a BH which is pass/fail you are always given a score in the scorebook, and that score reflects the overall picture that you presented which includes your handling, how well the dog completed the exercises, *and* the overall picture the dog presents based on temperament and what the exercises tell about the dog. You don't need to study the judges you just need to show a good dog. These things I hear about where dogs were passed or failed regardless of point total have always been *in spite of* the training or any handling mistakes (or cover ups), they are generally areas where the dog is revealing its true self and it's not a secret if you are a spectator at that trial and know what you're looking at. I've always agreed with the judge when this happens to my dog or a dog I know or watched in the trial. The origin of SchH is a breed test though it has become a competitive sport. Again, it is what *you* make of it... I'm a little of both. I really enjoy the training the most and would still do SchH training even if trials and titles didn't exist, but when you put in the work and have a dog that is ready, it is also nice to be recognized for the hard work and let a competitive streak take over.


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## Renofan2

I have trialed in both venues. I started in akc obedience and put a CD and RE on my GSD Libby and then a CD and RA on Molly. I then began training Molly in Schutzhund. Although there is some similaritites in the bh and cd, they are quite different. At first when I switched I thought that AKC was easier because you had the fences and very clear, rigid rules for judging, which made it easy for me to understand what was expected. The wide open schutzhund field was intimidating, however now after four years on the schutzhund field, I enjoy the freedom and space of the larger field and being able to walk your pattern without waiting for a judge to bark out a command. You have more room to build drive and have less reasons for immediate failure like double commands, breaking a sit or down, etc. Things that are point deductions in Schutzhund can be immediate nq's in AKC obedience. On the schutzhund field you have the ability to move between exercises at your own pace and don't find yourself waiting for a judge to tell you to proceed to the next one. I don't think it is fair to judge them one to one. They are different sports and have different purposes. Now that Molly is retired from schutzhund, due to bad hips, I have started training her again for akc obedience competitions. Hope to put a cdx and RE on her in the spring. The AKC trainer is constantly correcting me for Molly's heel position and would prefer I keep her back in "akc" correct position, however I find it awkward not having her where she can look into my eyes. I love her happy, drivey heeling and am willing to lose points in the AKC obedience ring as it is what I prefer. I have had both AKC judges and Schutzhund judges comment on her happy temperment just from the way she heels. I will take that over a perfect, dull looking routine anytime as we are out there as a team and doing this all for fun. The day she doesn't look happy is the day she stops competing. It is also unfair to judge all bh's from witnessing one trial. From my experience the routines that you described would have failed but maybe the rest of the routine showed the judge something that scored enough points to provide a passing score. Hopefully the judge mentioned during the critque what was good and not so good and things to work on for future.

Cheryl


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## gagsd

Codmaster, did your dog pass or fail?

The long down is 10 points. You lose 10 points if your dog blows it once, or four times. That would take you down to a 50 (assuming your dog didn't hold it long enough for partial points.)
You need 42 points to pass the obedience portion.

And BTW, I am surprised at how many times the term "title" is used for the BH on UScA's website.


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## Chris Wild

So it's safe to assume that you are VERY new to SchH as this was by your own admission the first BH you've seen. I can understand coming in here and asking questions. But what I don't understand is the argumentative nature, and coming into the SchH section and telling people how things should be done, and what the test means, and comparing it to other venues. Maybe instead of arguing and telling everyone how it should be in your mind, go and spend some time watching and learning....better yet doing... before making judgments and rash conclusions, pretty much bashing something you have no understanding of and snubbing your nose at those who have been around the SchH block a whole lot more than someone seeing a trial for the first time. :shrug:


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## KJenkins

bocron said:


> I've never seen a dog pass the BH that broke the down. I'd say in the last 15+ years I've seen a dozen or more dogs fail because of that one thing. (I've seen fails for other things, too, but more for breaking the down).


 
I've seen plenty of dogs pass breaking the down. Unless your dog just will not stay in the down at all from the moment you try and start the exercise you will still get a few of the ten points assigned. Now if the dog runs off the field or you just can't get them under control and back to you then that's pretty much a guaranteed fail.


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## bocron

I was referring to running off the field. One dog rolled around on it's back for a bit, then crawled commando style, to the point where the whole crowd was chuckling. The judge told the handler to go deal with the dog, when she turned around to head toward the dog, the dog took off having the time of his life. Ran into the crowd of spectators, wagging and spinning. Of course everyone lost it by that time. The girl caught the dog finally and took it back in and made him finish the down. Luckily she did not lose her temper with the dog (I'm not sure I could have remained calm and pleasant like she did) and finished the exercise.


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## GatorDog

When I passed the BH with Aiden he broke his down during the other dog's recall exercise. By broke it, I mean he literally just stood up and went nowhere. Then after probably 10 seconds of realizing that no one was acknowledging him, he went back into his down at the exact same spot. And the judge only took off 4 points I believe. 

That being said, I went to a club trial in October and there were 2 dogs that broke the down immediately. One "tracked" all the way back to its handler, and the other casually walked next to his handler and went back into a down. Because both dogs got up pretty much as soon as the handler turned their backs, I really didn't think they deserved to get any points for the exercise. The dog that tracked ended up failing for other reasons as well as the down, but the other dog did not. I was pretty disappointing considering neither dog did the exercise but didn't receive any major point deductions.


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## Liesje

I agree with Chris, if the BH is so terribly "lax" or the judging is wrong then just don't do it. I don't like the AKC routines so I don't do them, simple concept really.

As for the BH as a "title" honestly I really don't care what people call it. It does not bother me if people treat it like a title. While to me it may be easier than a CD, its certainly more difficult than an RN and that's a title. I've got a dog that right now only knows sit and down. I'm confident that within a month I could take him into a Rally ring and earn RN legs. However I could probably never earn a BH with this dog, as he is leash and collar smart and likes to run wild off leash. If I trained for months I could probably get through the off leash heeling but the long down and recall would freak me out (this is not a GSD, FWIW).

I don't sit around trying to weight every possibly title, certificate, etc against each other. All that matters is people are training their dogs and accomplishing *something*.


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## mareg

You need to compare the BH to the CGC not to the akc obedience titles. The cgc I did was VERY lax which is ok since it is more of a temperament test and not an obedience titlle. 

The bh is also not an obedience title. If you compare the two, a bh is a bit more difficult.


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## Mrs.K

I know two judges where you'd immediately fail the BH if the dogs went up. That being said, one is very very old school. The other doesn't care if your dog is happy heeling or with his head on the ground, as long as the dogs are correct you get the point. To them two they are not just temperament tests. It's a temperament AND basic obedience test. If the dog gets up, you fail.


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## holland

Just because I have failed at something doesn't mean I am bashing it I made a comment-and I have failed at AKC too-personally I would rather fail at something than to pass and not feel like I and my dog have not earned it. I also believe that just because we failed does not mean that I don't have a good dog. To me a lot of people in this thread were making put downs about AKC. A good perfromance is a good performance in either venue. Because I commented on what I saw in my opinion does not mean that I am bashing it-I am commenting on what I saw


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## lhczth

Mrs.K said:


> I know two judges where you'd immediately fail the BH if the dogs went up. That being said, one is very very old school. The other doesn't care if your dog is happy heeling or with his head on the ground, as long as the dogs are correct you get the point. To them two they are not just temperament tests. It's a temperament AND basic obedience test. If the dog gets up, you fail.


Then they are not judging correctly and are just doing things their own way. Judges have some leeway, but they should not just make up their own rules. If a dog gets up on the long down they lose 10 pts. That is all they can do unless the dog starts running around and the handler is not able to get them under control after 3 commands or the dog attacks the other dog or a person. If the dog did the rest of the BH exercises correctly the dog would still need to pass that part of the BH. 

I have seen dogs pass with obvious temperament faults. This is a much bigger problem, IMO, than if the dog breaks the long down.


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## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> Then they are not judging correctly and are just doing things their own way. Judges have some leeway, but they should not just make up their own rules. If a dog gets up on the long down they lose 10 pts. That is all they can do unless the dog starts running around and the handler is not able to get them under control after 3 commands or the dog attacks the other dog or a person. If the dog did the rest of the BH exercises correctly the dog would still need to pass that part of the BH.
> 
> I have seen dogs pass with obvious temperament faults. This is a much bigger problem, IMO, than if the dog breaks the long down.


yeah...usually, if they do break the down, it's not just the down that's the only issue, so those missing 10 points are pretty much what breaks their necks.


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## codmaster

lhczth said:


> Then they are not judging correctly and are just doing things their own way. Judges have some leeway, but they should not just make up their own rules. If a dog gets up on the long down they lose 10 pts. That is all they can do unless the dog starts running around and the handler is not able to get them under control after *3 commands* or the dog attacks the other dog or a person. If the dog did the rest of the BH exercises correctly the dog would still need to pass that part of the BH.
> 
> I have seen dogs pass with obvious temperament faults. This is a much bigger problem, IMO, than if the dog breaks the long down.


 
How about breaking the down 4 times in the same down exercise? Would that be sufficient to earn a passing score in your eyes?

Maybe I just expect a little higher degree of obedience in an obedience exercise but I can't see a dog passing in this circumstance. Obviously not very much handler control in this instance. 

But if that is within the rules in a ScH BH test, then that is the rule! 

Same with running around the field on the off lead heeling and sniffing the ground repeatedly - if the BH rules allow it then they allow it and the dog should pass.

I just wasn't aware that this type of lax obedience was within the BH evaluation rules ans suitable for a passing score.


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## codmaster

mareg said:


> You need to compare the BH to the CGC not to the akc obedience titles. The cgc I did was VERY lax which is ok since it is more of a temperament test and not an obedience titlle.
> 
> The bh is also not an obedience title. If you compare the two, a bh is a bit more difficult.


Au Contraire! regarding the BH vs CGC evaluations. I also once thought the same - that the Bh is more difficult than the CGC. But after watching a BH test (and having completed the CGC on my dog and seeing a number of other tests), I now realize that is most assuredly not the case due to the very different scoring approach seemingly in place from the different sponsers of the tests. And also the purpose of each - they are different.

*From the AKC website:*
*AKC’s Canine Good Citizen® (CGC) Program*

_"Welcome to the AKC’s Canine Good Citizen® (CGC) Program. Started in 1989, the CGC Program is designed to reward dogs who have good manners at home and in the community. The Canine Good Citizen Program is a two-part program that stresses responsible pet ownership for owners and basic good manners for dogs. ..............................._
_Many dog owners choose Canine Good Citizen training as the first step in training their dogs. The Canine Good Citizen Program lays the foundation for other AKC activities such as obedience, agility, tracking, and performance events. As you work with your dog to teach the CGC skills, you'll discover the many benefits and joys of training your dog. Training will enhance the bond between you and your dog. *Dogs who have a solid obedience education* are a joy to live with-they respond well to household routines, have good manners in the presence of people and other dogs, and they fully enjoy the company of the owner who took the time to provide training, intellectual stimulation, and a high quality life." _

*Obviously much more of an emphasis on the dogs basic obedience in the CGC than in the BH test.*


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## Mrs.K

> *Obviously much more of an emphasis on the dogs basic obedience in the CGC than in the BH test.*


Codemaster, that is only to justify the poor obedience a lot of people have on their dogs. Period. All of a sudden it's "just" a Temperament test. It's not. It's a Temperament test and a test of SOLID obedience. It's that one thing you have to do to show that you are ready to pass onto the next level. 

And please everybody else who thinks that it's just a Temperament test, it's NOT!

THE BH IST EINE GRUNDPRUEFUNG IN DER DER *GRUNDGEHORSAM (Obedience)DES HUNDES *UND SEIN *VERHALTEN IN DER OEFFENTLICHKEIT* (Temperament) GEPRUEFT WIRD which basically means it tests the obedience and the dogs behavior in the public (temperament). 

And don't try to tell me what the BH is and isn't.


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## ShatteringGlass

A friend of mine failed the CGC because the dog would not hold a down stay. Kinda strange that a dog that would fail the CGC would pass the BH for the same performance. I just assumed since Schutzhund is supposed to be THE test for obedience and temperament, that it gives more leway than an AKC CGC...just saying since some Schutzhund people like to put down AKC events as somehow not as good as its Schutzhund equivalents....interesting anyways...

I plan on doing the BH with my male Dalmatian in the spring


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## Fast

OK Codmaster and your ilk, you win the internet. AKC obedience is harder than IPO obedience. Yayeeeee! 


Now take your dog out and get a UD or an IPO3. When you do that you might be a winner in real life too.


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## codmaster

Fast said:


> OK Codmaster and your ilk, you win the internet. AKC obedience is harder than IPO obedience. Yayeeeee! *Are you equating IPO obedience with BH obedience? I haven't heard that before, so you must really know your stuff.*
> 
> Now take your dog out and get a UD or an IPO3. When you do that you might be a *winner in real life* too.


 *This seems to be intended to be a little personal insult, heh? Really no need for that, is there? *

*Do you really truly believe that obtaining a dog title (of any sort) makes you a "winner in real life"?*


"Fast", you definetly might want to try to adapt a bit of the holiday spirit. you seem very tense and more than a little defensive.

Please don't be - I certainly didn't mean to insult your obvious belief in ScH and BH training. 

And despite what you seem to believe, i was not intending to denigrate the BH test at all. It is what it is and it was evidently my mistake with my expectations of the evaluation standards - actually, that just means that my dog should be ready to take the exam sooner than I would have expected so that might be a good thing.

When I started this thread, I was merely trying to express my surprise at (and lack of knowledge of) the BH evaluation. By stating how different were my expectations particularlly of the judging of the obedience portion of the BH test and the actual approach of at least that particular judge; I was asking experienced ScH people if that was standard in the BH world.

I actually do plan to continue with my training for the BH test (as well as continue with my trainig for the AKC obedience world.

BTW, when you refer to "a" UD, are you actually referring to "another" UD, aren't you?


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## ShatteringGlass

I dont think anyone was really making the arguement that one venue is neccissarily harder than the other. Just surprised at the scoring maybe. I know I was surprised when I heard that you can still pass even if you totally fail an exercise, being that I was only familiar with AKC at the time, in which if you fail one exercise, you fail the whole test. You could also fail certain exercises for giving a command more than once.

I know someone who passed their BH a few weeks ago, her dog broke the long down because he darted after the other dog doing its routine. The handler yelled "PLATZ!" and the dog DID stop and platz, so the judge passed her. There is NO WAY this would pass in AKC, so you have to understand that someone who is used to the strict scoring of AKC can find that shocking.


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## Fast

Some people just can't take a win can they? 



> *Do you really truly believe that obtaining a dog title (of any sort) makes you a "winner in real life"?*




Yes! Everyone who goes out there with their dog and walks the walk, in real life, is a winner. 

You see Codpiece, if you got off the internet and on to a training field you would know how asinine your opinion is on this matter. There are things that you can't learn unless you experience them. Don't you think that it might mean something that almost everyone that has real life experience disagrees with you and those that have never titled a dog agree with you? 

If you were really seeking knowledge you would take heed of what those people with experience told you. But I think your true purpose was to shake up people a little and provoke a conversation.


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## Fast

ShatteringGlass said:


> I dont think anyone was really making the arguement that one venue is neccissarily harder than the other. Just surprised at the scoring maybe. I know I was surprised when I heard that you can still pass even if you totally fail an exercise, being that I was only familiar with AKC at the time, in which if you fail one exercise, you fail the whole test.


Do you also find it shocking that if you tackle a guy in football you might get a multi-million dollar check and if you tackle a guy in basketball they might kick you out of the sport for life? :wild:


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## Mrs.K

Fast said:


> Some people just can't take a win can they?
> 
> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> Yes! Everyone who goes out there with their dog and walks the walk, in real life, is a winner.
> 
> You see Codpiece, if you got off the internet and on to a training field you would know how asinine your opinion is on this matter. There are things that you can't learn unless you experience them. Don't you think that it might mean something that almost everyone that has real life experience disagrees with you and those that have never titled a dog agree with you?
> 
> If you were really seeking knowledge you would take heed of what those people with experience told you. But I think your true purpose was to shake up people a little and provoke a conversation.


Kind of sad if you need a title or a trophy to feel like a winner. 

And what those experienced said about the BH is wrong. It isn't just a temperament test. It's in the rules, at least in the German rules that it is a Basic Test of Obedience and Temperament. Trust me, I speak both languages good enough to know and I don't have to take the BH to read the rules and take them for what they are. 

The "It's a temperament test only" argument is a poor excuse for poor obedience which is sort of like when the showdogs go on the field and the public is excluded from watching the BH just so they can get through it.


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## KJenkins

I don't think any judge out there will pass a dog that just plain can't and/or won't do the majority of the exercises to some degree of proficiency but at this level they are also going to look at the over-all picture of the dog and handler and use their discretion. They aren't going to nickle and dime a dog to the point of failing.


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## Chris Wild

Mrs.K said:


> Kind of sad if you need a title or a trophy to feel like a winner.
> 
> And what those experienced said about the BH is wrong. It isn't just a temperament test. It's in the rules, at least in the German rules that it is a Basic Test of Obedience and Temperament. Trust me, I speak both languages good enough to know and I don't have to take the BH to read the rules and take them for what they are.
> 
> The "It's a temperament test only" argument is a poor excuse for poor obedience which is sort of like when the showdogs go on the field and the public is excluded from watching the BH just so they can get through it.


No one is saying it is ONLY a temperament test. What people have said is that at the BH, unlike anything in AKC, temperament is also being tested. Not only in the traffic test, but throughout the obedience and that certain faults in the obedience performance will not be heavily pointed at this level if the dog is showing the desired temperament. Knowledge of the basic rules, and that yes a dog can fail an individual exercise and still pass, sure might help get some understanding too. 

It does sound like the BH Cod was at was extremely lenient compared to the norm. But without being there to see it, there is no way to know what the judge might have seen in the dog beyond the obedience performance itself (IOW, the temperament) that made him feel the dogs should be passed.

Someone unfamiliar with idea of testing temperament and working ability as well as obedience, and seeing a BH for the first time, certainly isn't capable of making that determination either and to go online and bash and argue about that which one doesn't understand too just seems rather silly and pointless.


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> No one is saying it is ONLY a temperament test. What people have said is that at the BH, unlike anything in AKC, temperament is also being tested. Not only in the traffic test, but throughout the obedience and that certain faults in the obedience performance will not be heavily pointed at this level if the dog is showing the desired temperament. Knowledge of the basic rules, and that yes a dog can fail an individual exercise and still pass, sure might help get some understanding too.
> 
> It does sound like the BH Cod was at was extremely lenient compared to the norm. But without being there to see it, there is no way to know what the judge might have seen in the dog beyond the obedience performance itself (IOW, the temperament) that made him feel the dogs should be passed.
> 
> *And someone unfamiliar with idea of testing temperament and working ability as well as obedience, and seeing a BH for the first time, certainly isn't capable of making that determination either*.


*Absolutely right!* *Chr!*

But I never said anything of me making a "determination", whatever you meant by that. I was trying to ask the experienced ScH folks here if that was the norm to expect in a BH trial. 

I must admit that I never expected quite so much defensivness from the Sch/BH cadre here. I don't know why my question, as a first time observer of a BH trial, would engender so much hostility (*including personal insults from one responder at least)* when I was simply asking about what I had seen actually take place in the ring.

No need to defend the BH so defensively, folks, - I am in a ScH club and working weekly to be able to take the test in the spring!

What I said and meant was that I was surprised that the dogs, two of them, actually passed an obedience exercise of a long down while getting up and trotting to the handler FOUR times! With each having to be returned to their spot by the handler leading them physically by their collar each time. 

Of course my inexperience showed when I asked this group about what I had seen. 

I also said that this was my first BH trial and I was used to the MUCH stricter obedience rules and regulations in the AKC trials even in the Novice A class (first time showers who have never titled any dog in an AKC trial).

Thanks very much to those folks who tried to answer my questions with a good explanation and some very good information about the BH and it's purpose.

Not so many thanks to those who tried to insult and belittle for simply asking a question about something I was new to and didn't understand. You folks did show something however.


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## Liesje

Fast said:


> Do you also find it shocking that if you tackle a guy in football you might get a multi-million dollar check and if you tackle a guy in basketball they might kick you out of the sport for life? :wild:


LOL

Yeah people can bitch all they want about how easy it is. Go out and do it a few times with a few different dogs at a few different clubs under a few different judges and report back how "lax" it is...


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## Smithie86

Liesje said:


> LOL
> 
> Yeah people can bitch all they want about how easy it is. Go out and do it a few times with a few different dogs at a few different clubs under a few different judges and report back how "lax" it is...


Excellent point. This is applicable on all venues, not just the BH........


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## Catu

Mrs.K said:


> Kind of sad if you need a title or a trophy to feel like a winner.


Well, I do.

I need a title or a a trophy to feel like a winner in SchH, it doesn't serve me if my mother thinks my dogs are perfectly trained or if I compare my work with YouTube videos. It is dog training and dog sports what is been discussed in this thread, not moral values nor life accomplishments and I feel it's very valid to want to win and get titles in Schutzhund or AKC or Agility or whatever you choose, therefore being judged and evaluated by third parties.


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## Mrs.K

Catu said:


> Well, I do.
> 
> I need a title or a a trophy to feel like a winner in SchH, it doesn't serve me if my mother thinks my dogs are perfectly trained or if I compare my work with YouTube videos. It is dog training and dog sports what is been discussed in this thread, not moral values nor life accomplishments and I feel it's very valid to want to win and get titles in Schutzhund or AKC or Agility or whatever you choose, therefore being judged and evaluated by third parties.


You know, I'm debating it. I always debate it. Every single day I debate whether or not getting into it. And then I see something that reminds me why I don't and turned my back on the competitive world. 
I used to be a highly competitive person. I competed all my life throughout childhood, teenage years and as a young adult and what for? 
Recognition? Throphies? 
I've seen what it does to people. Crooked Judges, Corruption, Lying, Cheating, Money...Backstabbing, downtalking a good dog, destroying handler careers so they don't get too far. Ruining a Judges reputation because he's not playing the game and accusing him of fraud. 

A lot of Schutzhund handlers have turned their back to the sport, left the SV because they just couldn't deal with all that corruption anymore. 

I love the breed. I really love the breed and I'd love to get into the Sport but I just can't seem to overcome my disgust for the practices. Watching it for years and years, being so close to what it has done to friends of my family and to my own father has it ruined for me. 

I will do it for fun but not to win and not for sport, I may dabble in it and if I do title a dog it's only to get the dog gekoered and that's that.


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## Smithie86

But, why have other people dictate what you do? No matter what If you love it, do it. 

If you are doing it for the right reasons, keep going. Just because other behave badly does not mean you have to drop yourself to their base level.


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## JanaeUlva

My favorite expression is "don't throw the baby out with the bath water." it is so applicable in life for anything! There will always be variance and extremes.


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## lhczth

Smithie86 said:


> But, why have other people dictate what you do? No matter what If you love it, do it.
> 
> If you are doing it for the right reasons, keep going. Just because other behave badly does not mean you have to drop yourself to their base level.


 
:thumbup:

I don't train and trial in SchH because of the people (though I have met some wonderful people along with some not so wonderful), I do it because of the dogs.


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## Catu

You know, on the contrary I am not a competitive person. As a child I was never into sports. At most I was in scout girls where we competed in some things, but I was more into the contact with nature and team work that into that stuff. What I like about Schutzhund, what makes me want to stand in front of a judges and to receive a title is the fact that I can compete against myself, do it better than the last time. I am very aware of the politics and greed involved in dog sports, not different than with any given sport, but I don't care, because I can't cheat myself, and I am the only person I want to win to.


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## codmaster

Liesje said:


> LOL
> 
> Yeah people can bitch all they want about how easy it is. Go out and do it a few times with a few different dogs at a few different clubs under a few different judges and report back how "lax" it is...


 
*Wasn't any "Bitching"* - just surprise that multiple dogs can break a "Down Stay" in a formal trial exercise four different times, get up and walk toward the handler, be physically restrained to guide them back to the original position and yet still pass the test.

Guess that some folks might be expecting a different level of obedience and perhaps have different standards for obedience.

But we all live and learn about different sports and their rules and regulations, don't we?

I imagine that someone who had done only the BH type training and knew the rules for that test would be really shocked at how "Picky" an AKC Novice A judge would be by NQ'ing their dog if they broke a Down Stay by even just coming to a Sit position one time.

*Different rules and expectations for obviously different sports!*

And I really do appreciate everyone who has contributed to this discussion which opened a lot of eyes.

Happy Holiday to all!


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## Smithie86

lhczth said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I don't train and trial in SchH because of the people (though I have met some wonderful people along with some not so wonderful), I do it because of the dogs.



I agree

There are some pretty wonderful people that I have met, here in the US and in Europe, listen to, talk to because they love the sport as something to do with their dogs.


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## Fast

Mrs.K said:


> Kind of sad if you need a title or a trophy to feel like a winner.
> .


I never said that anyone needs to title a dog to be a winner. But when we are on the subject of dogsports, everyone that titles a dog is a winner.


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## ShatteringGlass

Fast said:


> Do you also find it shocking that if you tackle a guy in football you might get a multi-million dollar check and if you tackle a guy in basketball they might kick you out of the sport for life? :wild:


Are they both doing the exact same thing?  A down stay is a down stay. Under different venues they have different rules as to what passes and what doesn't, but that doesnt change what the exercise is, a down-stay.

I didnt make any kind of judgement as to whether one venue was "better" than the other. I just stated why someone who's only familiar with one may have a hard time wrapping their heads around the other the first time. I dont know what you're trying to get at with your comparison...


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## Fast

ShatteringGlass said:


> Are they both doing the exact same thing? A down stay is a down stay.


No it's not just a down stay. Both of the sports have completely different rules about what constitutes a passable down stay. Just because it shares the same name does not mean it's the same thing. 

These are white cars. Each one has a very different purpose, even though they are all white cars. IPO and AKC sports share some terms and at first glance they are both "white cars". But when you look closer you will find that they are very different.


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## Mrs.K

Honstly...they more you are trying to explain it, they worse the picture of the BH and the standard of obedience.

The dog, Codemaster described should have never passed. No matter what the Judge saw in the dog. The Judge should have said: Great Temperament, good dog but come back once you've got the Obedience down."


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## lhczth

Dog broke the long down. Boom, he has lost 10 pts. He does not automatically fail (those are the rules no matter what others think). The handler should have gone and stood next to the dog or if the dog came to him the dog should have been put in a down next to the handler. The fact that the handler was allowed to grab the dog's collar and put him back into position 4 times is faulty and against the rules. You grab your dog's collar you are to be disqualified. I have seen judges overlook one time in a club trial with a BH or a first time handler doing a SchH1, but 4 times is faulty. I will agree with Codmaster that if what he describes happened than this was incorrect judging. 

Now, of course we are all basing our opinions on the description of another person which means we are basing our opinion on hearsay.


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> *Wasn't any "Bitching"* - just surprise that multiple dogs can break a "Down Stay" in a formal trial exercise four different times, get up and walk toward the handler, be physically restrained to guide them back to the original position and yet still pass the test.


Yeah, you've brought this up about a dozen times now. I've never seen a dog pass that broke a down that many times (because all the dogs I've seen leave the long down position have made numerous other mistakes), heck I'd be surprised too. I'm not going to start a thread calling something "lax" with just one trial as an example and something I haven't done a few times myself but that's just me I guess....


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## codmaster

codmaster said:


> So I was at *my first BH evaluation* this past weekend. As a long time AKC obedience participant, I was MOST surprised at the very low standards for passing the BH obedience exise.
> 
> *So I figured to ask and see if this is expected and usual or did we just happen to get a very lenient judge. (Which could and does happen in any dog sport, of course).*
> 
> For example, 2 of the dogs broke their long down stay at the side of the field while the other dog was working 4 times each and started walking over to their handlers. Each passed easily!
> A couple of other dogs literally ran around 15-25 feet away from their handlers on the off leash exercise and did return but repeated it a few times each. All passed as well.Etc. Etc.
> *Usual?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Look folks! (some of you only!)
> 
> This was my original post in this thread that has evidently caused some posters to get VERY defensive (as well as personally insulting!).
> 
> Please note that I simply asked if what I saw in the first BH test I ever witnessed (and was a steward in, BTW) was normal and what was to be expected. That was it.
> 
> No bitching, no complaining, no insulting the ScH/BH compared to AKC obedience - simply a question, if normally dogs would be passed by a BH judge for the kind of obedience performance that I was a direct in the ring witness to.
> 
> What a reaction from some folks!


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## Liesje

Who was judging?

FWIW I've seen a dog run off the field, through a parking lot, and to its car and still pass. 

You probably got some reactions for using terms like lax and low standards when admittedly it was your first BH and the judge could be a ridiculously easy one. Also there's no "passing easily", you either pass or you don't. Most judges don't even announce the scores; some clubs will give a High BH award and not announce the score.


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## Zahnburg

Cod,

To answer your original question. Here is video from a normal BH routine: 



 
This is what I would expect from a dog doing the BH.


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## codmaster

Zahnburg said:


> Cod,
> 
> To answer your original question. Here is video from a normal BH routine: Freddie von Kunzwald BH routine - YouTube
> 
> This is what I would expect from a dog doing the BH.


 
Thanks! That is a very Big help!


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## gagsd

I think (could be wrong, has happened before) that you have expressed some opinions about schutzhund/schutzhund dogs in the past, that may be coloring people's opinions in this post.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Who was judging?
> 
> FWIW I've seen a dog run off the field, through a parking lot, and to its car and still pass.
> 
> You probably got some reactions for using terms like lax and low standards when admittedly it was your first BH and the judge could be a ridiculously easy one. Also there's no "passing easily", you either pass or you don't. Most judges don't even announce the scores; some clubs will give a High BH award and not announce the score.


But isn't it still lax and low standards then? It doesn't matter if it was your first BH or not. You don't need to be a genius or have seen a 100BH's to know whats lax and low standard. A dog breaking four times a downstay and being carried back on his collar, is lax and low standard. :help:


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## cliffson1

Art, that is the basic level that I expect me and my dog to be when competing for a BH. That is the type of BH's I am used to seeing 80% of the time. Your BH would be the norm in most trials. sometimes people attempt things when they are not ready, but I still say like Mrs. K, that 85% of judges I have seen grade a BH would probably not pass a person that's dog fit the desription presented initially....thus making the example non-representative of the norm, IMO. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> But isn't it still lax and low standards then? It doesn't matter if it was your first BH or not. You don't need to be a genius or have seen a 100BH's to know whats lax and low standard. A dog breaking four times a downstay and being carried back on his collar, is lax and low standard. :help:


It is for that judge/trial, but not all BHs in general. That's what I'm saying. So I see 30 BHs and 2 of them really suck but somehow pass. Oh well, not my dogs, not my club's trial, not my problem. Those people will probably have trouble going on to their SchH1 anyway. I don't need to start a thread about whether or not the BH as a whole is lax compared to unrelated titles/certificates in other venues.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> It is for that judge/trial, but not all BHs in general. That's what I'm saying. So I see 30 BHs and 2 of them really suck but somehow pass. Oh well, not my dogs, not my club's trial, not my problem. Those people will probably have trouble going on to their SchH1 anyway. I don't need to start a thread about whether or not the BH as a whole is lax compared to unrelated titles/certificates in other venues.


That, I agree with.


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## ShatteringGlass

Fast said:


> No it's not just a down stay. Both of the sports have completely different rules about what constitutes a passable down stay. Just because it shares the same name does not mean it's the same thing.
> 
> These are white cars. Each one has a very different purpose, even though they are all white cars. IPO and AKC sports share some terms and at first glance they are both "white cars". But when you look closer you will find that they are very different.


What??? Didnt I say the rules as to what passes and what doesnt are different, but what is expected and what the dog is being judged on IS the same. How is a down-stay done correctly in BOTH venues: The handler downs his dog, leaves, and the dog is to stay in the down position until the handler returns and tells him to get up. I dont know what you're reaching for, but your comparisons are really out there.


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## holland

Just post a picture of a fire truck for him and he'll be happy-its a boy thing they think we need pics


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