# Neighbors questioning Harley's attack. Dont know true answer



## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Noticed today my neighbor was hovering over her ****zu and then carried her in. I expected this and I understand. I spoke with her later because we are friends. She likes Harley but is now afraid. She asked if its true that once they do that and get a taste for blood that is it likely for them to do it again more easily. I told her I honestly wasn't sure. I don't believe so but I am not an expert. I also was told the other week not to give him raw deer bones due to same scenario. But isn't that what raw is all about? Just looking for some clarification.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry I mispelled ****z zu and can't edit from my phone. Still doesn't look right!!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if dogs are going to kill something because of the taste
of blood is feeding raw safe? lol. i give my dog elk antlers
and he doesn't want to kill elk but there's no elks in my
neighborhood.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Years ago I worked pretty closely with a tiger and a leopard. They both ate raw chicken, no red meat was allowed. The thinking behind that was us humans would be considered red meat and they thought that they would avoid a bad situation. They had those animals for years with numerous people working with them and no problems. I know that they are different animals, but they are wild animals, which is where dogs started anyway. When I was growing up, raw was unheard of where I came from. It just wasn't done. I'm interested in seeing other responses.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Who told you not to feed deer bones? I believe that the "once they've tasted blood" story is just that, a story - an old wives tale. But if you rephrase it, there's some truth to it: "Now that I know that Harley can kill your small dog, I'll be much more careful in how I manage him"


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Old wives tale. If it were true then I'd be in trouble, lol.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

verivus said:


> old wives tale. If it were true then i'd be in trouble, lol.


lol


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I completely understand that your neighbor picks up her Shih-Tzu. You have told us that you weren't able to control your dog and he killed that Yorkie. I would avoid Harley too if I had a dog, no matter how big my dog was. But I wouldn't sever the friendship with you for it.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Once a dog has killed another dog like yours did, he is much more likely to do it again given the chance, because he now knows how it feels and how to do it. If I were your neighbor, I would be super protective of it now.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Elaine....dogs are animals and not people though many try to make them so. As such, they have no concept of the moral aspect of what they do.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Are you walking Harley with a muzzle now? I know it's not the nicest of things, but it would probably make your neighbours feel safer. 

I can understand why Harley went after that little dog though, and I don't think it has to do with it's size, but it's actions. Doesn't necessarily mean he's going to do it again, but better safe than sorry.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The taste for blood is truly a very old wives tale, or maybe a mens tale, who knows.
Feeding "raw" has been around for years, except it used to be called "feeding themselves" How many family dogs on farms ate butchered cow that was left over, ate bones/intestines from butchering? Lots and lots. Killed and ate rabbits/mice/chickens/etc, then went and played in the pond or fields with the kids? 
However, Harley chased, caught and killed a little dog. Without proper control and being very careful, if he sees another little yapping charging dog running towards him or away from him, he most likely will want to chase and do the same thing. The harness was great when he was walking calmly beside you, but you had as much chance as stopping him with a harness as stopping a charging horse with a piece of twine around its neck.. I think harnesses are great for certain situations, but you lose control very quickly. I would not take Harley outside without a muzzle and a prong collar. Show the neighbors you are trying to prevent another accident. Harley may never be forgiven by the neighbors, but the more "active" you can be with control, the more folks might eventually forget.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

I tried walking Harley the other day but turned around and came home. It was too hard for me, I couldn't do it. Think I need to give myself alittle more time. He will go out with a prong collar and I think we will start by doing some trails first at the park when no one is there.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Harley killing the smaller dog has nothing at all to do with what you've fed him in the past or will feed him in the future. 

If I allowed my dogs to chase and consume rabbits, they will do so. But it would have nothing to do with the fact I feed raw chicken. 

I eat Mexican food. I have all my life. But I still can't speak Spanish.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

That is a good idea. Your confidence is down in the dumps and to walk Harley again, you need to build yours up first. Small walks in the park or on trails with Harley on a prong and a muzzle will make you realize you can walk him and control him again. Then you can start walking in the neighborhood. Your "fear" will radiate to him through the leash at this point and make him more tense and alert for "danger" that he is feeling from you.
You will get through this. You just have to realize what your dog, or any dog, is capable of and think things through and be aware. Muzzles always seem to signal a vicious dog to humans, but in this case, you need to keep on one him at all times to signal to the neighbors that you are aware and trying to prevent another attack.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Verivus said:


> Old wives tale. If it were true then I'd be in trouble, lol.


 
If the taste of deer blood will set them off, just think what human blood will do!

And then think about what GSD puppy hasn't drawn (and tasted!) human bllod! (Landshark puppies!)


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Didn't the little dog come charging out at your dog acting all aggressive?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> The taste for blood is truly a very old wives tale, or maybe a mens tale, who knows.
> Feeding "raw" has been around for years, except it used to be called "feeding themselves" How many family dogs on farms ate butchered cow that was left over, ate bones/intestines from butchering? Lots and lots. Killed and ate rabbits/mice/chickens/etc, then went and played in the pond or fields with the kids?
> However, Harley chased, caught and killed a little dog. Without proper control and being very careful, if he sees another little yapping charging dog running towards him or away from him, he most likely will want to chase and do the same thing. The harness was great when he was walking calmly beside you, but you had as much chance as stopping him with a harness as stopping a charging horse with a piece of twine around its neck.. I think harnesses are great for certain situations, but you lose control very quickly. I would not take Harley outside without a muzzle and a prong collar. Show the neighbors you are trying to prevent another accident. Harley may never be forgiven by the neighbors, but the more "active" you can be with control, the more folks might eventually forget.


This is a great post.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Didn't the little dog come charging out at your dog acting all aggressive?


The dog was acting aggressive on its own lawn and it was within an invisible fence. OP lost control of her dog when it lunged towards the little guy and took off for the yard. Killed the dog in its own yard.

It has nothing to do with what you feed your dog, but the problem is that to rehabilitate this issue you'll have to work your dog around little dogs. He seems to go into prey drive very quickly and the only way to train him is to slowly push him into the situation where he has this issue. You have to look at it from your neighbor's POV, I wouldn't trust your dog either, especially if I had a small dog. At the same time I think I've read that you allow your dog to run around and bark in the yard (which a lot of people do but it still doesn't look like you have a super friendly dog to your neighbors). Remember...dog's aren't what they used to be. They're more a possible liability than an asset. People love the "idea" of a protective dog, but when a dog actually acts that way towards neighbors or friendly people they get confused (or like it for some stupid reason).

Not sure if you've been given this advice or not, but go to a kennel/training club. One where you would be in obedience class with all sorts of breeds. This would definitely help your dog get better around small dogs.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I eat Mexican food. I have all my life. But I still can't speak Spanish.


I'm learning Spanish right now. I wish it was that easy...


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I eat Mexican food. I have all my life. But I still can't speak Spanish.
ROFL


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anitsisqua said:


> I'm learning Spanish right now. I wish it was that easy...


I'd know Chinese too!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My neighbor's cows just wouldn't be safe from me, lmao!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Definitely muzzle him at all times when you walk him. Your liability is high now as well.
Normally I am not in favor of prong collars but the combination muzzle-prong will make you calmer and this will have positive effect on Harley. Also a sturdy leather leash will give you better grip than a chain or nylon leash.
And yes, take him to a class after you have consulted a trainer so he/she knows what happened. maybe you have to taket a few private lessons first to give you the tools for the class.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Please get a muzzle.
The dog needs to be exercised and you will have more trouble if he has pent up energy.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Don't forget a backup collar if you use a prong! 

I use a nylon choke as my backup. It's lightweight, and only there in case the prong failed.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I use an oversized check chain with mine, and it's a fancy color so people are always complimenting him on his bling, lol. All that jewelry seems to detract the critical eye from the prong - not that I would care. I also wouldn't care if I had to walk my dog with a basket cage muzzle. If it's keeping my dog safe, why would I? That's how I view these things, as *safety for my dog* and nothing less. Sure, your neighbor will feel better about it, and that's a good thing. But the main goal is to prevent the dog from getting into trouble - and where they might have to pay the ultimate price for getting into it.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Also, to the OP - as much as you might feel bad to use a prong and a muzzle, I think in the end you will feel better knowing that you are setting yourself up for success in the future by taking these measures to prevent this type of tragedy from happening again.

You won't need to worry about another small dog charging your dog, because you have removed your dog being able to harm the smaller one from the picture, and you can walk the streets with renewed confidence.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Ok, I'm going to be the 'odd man out'. I agree with the prong, not the muzzle, though. This dog isn't DA, it was in prey drive. Get yourself a hiking pole or a large stick. You can whack either your own dog if it gets rushed by a small dog or whack the small dog that shouldn't be out of its yard. How likely is it that your dog is going to 'get away' from you again on a prong?? Other than working harnesses, I've never liked them for big dogs. IMO, if you want control that you can't get from walking a GSD, then you use a prong. Problem solved. I promise you that if you're walking your GSD and that prong is fitted properly, he's NOT going to keep bucking it. 

I do think you need some advanced classes to get a bomb proof recall and a down stay without hesitation. EVERY person with a GSD needs that! How many have it, though? Use that prey drive for schutzhund. Don't pen up your dog at home, his frustration is going to go into overdrive making him harder to handle. Up your training and mental games. Up the physical exercise. Do NOT be afraid or nervous when taking him out. Your dog will be all over that. In the dog's eyes, he did nothing wrong. He probably hasn't thought about that dog since that day. Your neighbors had a reason to fear your dog BEFORE it killed the Yorkie, they just didn't know it. The dog hasn't changed. Not one bit. It was the same dog before and after that attack. He didn't attack a human. He killed prey. A truly dog aggressive dog or human aggressive dog needs a muzzle. Your dog is a normal GSD that just happened to catch what he chased. Lack of control and training. NOT the dog's fault. An accident. It happens. You have GOT to move on. Your dog already has. Tell your neighbors to keep their dogs in their yard supervised, and you'll keep your dog under control and that's that. 

My pup is a sweet guy. He really is. However, he's already shown that you don't mess with or threaten his handler. Does that make him dangerous? NO. That makes him a GSD. ANY GSD can be seen as 'dangerous'. That's the nature of the dog. However, your neighbors getting all up in arms because your dog was acting like a shepherd is over the top. You correct what is wrong on your end. Your dog isn't 'mean' or anything else they want to say. Just accept that it was a screwed up thing. If you muzzle your dog, it's going to send the wrong message, IMHO. I think it will just key up your neighbors more, and possibly confuse your dog.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Jag said:


> Ok, I'm going to be the 'odd man out'. I agree with the prong, not the muzzle, though. This dog isn't DA, it was in prey drive. Get yourself a hiking pole or a large stick. You can whack either your own dog if it gets rushed by a small dog or whack the small dog that shouldn't be out of its yard. How likely is it that your dog is going to 'get away' from you again on a prong?? Other than working harnesses, I've never liked them for big dogs. IMO, if you want control that you can't get from walking a GSD, then you use a prong. Problem solved. I promise you that if you're walking your GSD and that prong is fitted properly, he's NOT going to keep bucking it.
> 
> I do think you need some advanced classes to get a bomb proof recall and a down stay without hesitation. EVERY person with a GSD needs that! How many have it, though? Use that prey drive for schutzhund. Don't pen up your dog at home, his frustration is going to go into overdrive making him harder to handle. Up your training and mental games. Up the physical exercise. Do NOT be afraid or nervous when taking him out. Your dog will be all over that. In the dog's eyes, he did nothing wrong. He probably hasn't thought about that dog since that day. Your neighbors had a reason to fear your dog BEFORE it killed the Yorkie, they just didn't know it. The dog hasn't changed. Not one bit. It was the same dog before and after that attack. He didn't attack a human. He killed prey. A truly dog aggressive dog or human aggressive dog needs a muzzle. Your dog is a normal GSD that just happened to catch what he chased. Lack of control and training. NOT the dog's fault. An accident. It happens. You have GOT to move on. Your dog already has. Tell your neighbors to keep their dogs in their yard supervised, and you'll keep your dog under control and that's that.
> 
> My pup is a sweet guy. He really is. However, he's already shown that you don't mess with or threaten his handler. Does that make him dangerous? NO. That makes him a GSD. ANY GSD can be seen as 'dangerous'. That's the nature of the dog. However, your neighbors getting all up in arms because your dog was acting like a shepherd is over the top. You correct what is wrong on your end. Your dog isn't 'mean' or anything else they want to say. Just accept that it was a screwed up thing. If you muzzle your dog, it's going to send the wrong message, IMHO. I think it will just key up your neighbors more, and possibly confuse your dog.


That was an awesome speech. I actually did some work with him today. Had neighbor brinv her dog out while I had harley in our fenced yard on a leash. I walked him up and down fence line and he looked over at her but wasn't bothered. We then went to trails at park where a lady had a small dog. We did not get close to it, but he did notice it. I made him sit and we waited. Back on the trail we saw a squirrel, he wanted to go but I got in front of him and told him down, which he did. Not quite as quick as I would of liked but he listened. Its going to take time but I can do this for him and I. ( I hope )


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I would use caution walking along a fence line with another dog on the other side. He may act totally normal without that fence, but with it become hostile and frustrated. Not saying he did, but it's possible. If you want your dog on 'ignore' for other dogs, the second your dog looks in that direction...correct. I did this with my female (not that it worked, but she was insane so it's moot). It WILL work with a mentally stable dog. This is how my first dog was trained. No look. With no look, there's no going into prey drive. I'm wondering, though, if you had a prong on him, why did you step in front of him with the squirrel? Did you use the prong for correction when he honed in on the squirrel? If not, give the correction. Head should turn to you ("what do you want?") then you praise like crazy (or just mark it with "yes!") and give a command ("sit" or "down") then praise that. You want him heeling with you so you have that control. If he's not heeling, your prong correction isn't going to be effective. Does he heel for you now? If not, that's your number one goal. Otherwise, the prong will only work for self correction (pulling) and you can't correct other behaviors (no look, no chase) with it. JMO

BTW... you CAN do it!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jag said:


> Ok, I'm going to be the 'odd man out'. I agree with the prong, not the muzzle, though. This dog isn't DA, it was in prey drive. Get yourself a hiking pole or a large stick. You can whack either your own dog if it gets rushed by a small dog or whack the small dog that shouldn't be out of its yard.


Odd, indeed to say the least.....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jag said:


> Ok, I'm going to be the 'odd man out'. I agree with the prong, not the muzzle, though. This dog isn't DA, it was in prey drive. Get yourself a hiking pole or a large stick. You can whack either your own dog if it gets rushed by a small dog or whack the small dog that shouldn't be out of its yard.


The dog that was killed was in its own yard...her GSD broke away from her and ran into that dog's yard and killed it. How many times on this forum are people saying "stay out of my yard and you won't get hurt." or "My dog can do whatever it wants in my yard." So now you're kind of giving this dog a pass for violating another dog's yard and going in and killing it. Sorry...if you can't have control of your dog on leash, you need to have it muzzled. I had a dog try to attack mine a few weeks ago when the leash "slipped" out of the owner's hand. I didn't care...I have a GSD that protected myself and himself and it didn't escalate...but if I had had a smaller dog we'd probably be discussing a different incident.

I get it...OP wants a normal dog, one that isn't dangerous or isn't thought to be dangerous by the neighbors. And until OP can do that they should do everything possible to make sure something like this never happens again. If a muzzle is an answer in the short term then that's what they should use.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> The dog that was killed was in its own yard...her GSD broke away from her and ran into that dog's yard and killed it. How many times on this forum are people saying "stay out of my yard and you won't get hurt." or "My dog can do whatever it wants in my yard." So now you're kind of giving this dog a pass for violating another dog's yard and going in and killing it. Sorry...if you can't have control of your dog on leash, you need to have it muzzled. I had a dog try to attack mine a few weeks ago when the leash "slipped" out of the owner's hand. I didn't care...I have a GSD that protected myself and himself and it didn't escalate...but if I had had a smaller dog we'd probably be discussing a different incident.
> 
> I get it...OP wants a normal dog, one that isn't dangerous or isn't thought to be dangerous by the neighbors. And until OP can do that they should do everything possible to make sure something like this never happens again. If a muzzle is an answer in the short term then that's what they should use.


Dogs might not have the same feelings we do about where the grass turns from our grass to the neighbor's grass. So if it was prey drive on our lawn, or on the neighbor's lawn, it really makes little difference in how you react to the behavior, whether you train or manage or socialize or muzzle. It matters, but only on human terms, who is liable for the vet bills, whose dog might be euthanized. I mean, if the dog kills a dog on your land, no one should be able to euthanize the dog for that. But if your dog trots over to the neighbor's and kills their dog, the AC can, generally on a repeated offense recommend and in some cases require euthanasia. This is not to punish the dog, but to prevent it from happening again. And it is the people who suffer, both dog owners will suffer, but one is more to blame.

I don't know about the muzzle. If people could be reliable enough to keep their small dog from plowing into your dog wherever they are, then you can probably do without it. But people are not reliable. People let dogs get right up in other dogs' faces all the time. People use flexi-leads and their dogs just go wherever. People leave their dogs loose, and they charge up.

Frankly, while I will blame the small dog owner for letting their dog be eaten in the above -- off the property incidents, like on walks, at the park, etc.; I do not want my dogs to attack another dog, not ever. This means I have to be proactive to keep that from happening. I do this by taking my dogs to classes during their first year until I feel they are reasonably reliable around other dogs in all situations. And so far (searching for wood to bang on), they have not cause injury to another person's dog. If I had a dog that I knew would, I would probably use the muzzle and prong collar. It is all about protecting my dog. If protecting my dog means protecting your dog from my dog, so be it.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm well aware of what happened. I read the other thread. Had the dog been on a prong and not a harness, the chances of the dog 'slipping away' out of control would have been much lower. I've NEVER had a dog get away from me on a prong. Ever. People can think whatever they wish. The dog thinks how a dog thinks. I am all pro-muzzle when you've got a dog aggressive dog or a human aggressive dog. Been there, done that. What happened was not a dog aggressive attack. It was prey. The same way the dog would go after a rabbit or any other small furry thing. Yes, you can muzzle the dog for being a dog. However, IMO, it's not needed. Training, prong collar, stick. Control. Leadership. With those things, you can stop and drop a dog no matter what is going on. A prong collar on my bitch saved the woman's life when she attacked her. (This was her first attack) If you want every single person who sees your dog to think you've got a vicious dog, then put a muzzle on it. It's appropriate for vicious dogs. However, this isn't (from what I've been reading anyway) a vicious dog. It's a dog that went into prey drive and the handler didn't have control because the proper tools weren't there and the training wasn't there. Agree, disagree... all is fine.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Everyone keeps saying his yard, my yard. Does it really matter? What matters is it happened. It could of been in the field bordering their yard. Bottom line is the dog started running out, harley got away from me and went after him. I should of been on guard and prepared. I wasn't and now a dog is dead. The yard is right up against the road, no sidewalk, no nothing. Makes no difference. It still happened. I was in the wrong and now need to do whatever it takes to prevent it from happening again whether I choose to use a muzzle or not. People can tell me what to do, give advice, etc. But I have to choose what I listen to and don't.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Wow, you were brave to walk Harley around the neighborhood - good for you. The walk in the park, and the squirrel practice - you've both are making such progress and so fast!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I would not take any chances. It's not just about protecting small dogs now, it's about protecting Harley. If that meant training her to wear a basket muzzle to reduce the chance of injury while I worked on the prey drive, or whatever drive it was that sent her after the little dog, then I would do it. I've lived with an HA dog for years. You do what you have to do to protect your dog.

I would put a prong collar on but keep in mind that prong collars will ramp a dog's drive up. At least that would give me some measure of control. I would get a trainer to help with behavior modifications. I would contact Lou Castle about his "critter" training with an e-collar. And I would put a muzzle on him.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It is your decision to make, but just remember that you're making the decision for Harley, not for yourself.


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

I would go with the muzzle. As someone in another thread once said, stop worrying about what other people think and worry about your dog. What is the downside of the muzzle? People might think your dog is aggressive. So what? If it keeps your dog from attacking another dog, and having to put your dog down, then you have saved your dog's life.

I have had both dog aggressive and human aggressive dogs. The trainers had me work on desensitizing the dogs by exposing them at a distance to the thing they reacted to (dogs or children). This works great in the classroom. In the real world, while you are 30 feet away from the little dog feeding your dog treats, someone comes up behind you with a dog on a flexi leash and says "is your dog friendly". 

Once you are sure your training is working, you can go without the muzzle.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> It is your decision to make, but just remember that you're making the decision for Harley, not for yourself.


Your right, it is my decision. But I am getting some that say do this and then some that say don't. What advice do I go with? Prong, no prong, muzzle, no muzzle, and now ecollar. I don't know which is the best way to go. That's why I came here. People that have more knowledge and experience. I plan on taking things slow with him and what I am comfortable with. But I want to make sure I am doing it properly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you need to research each option that has been given to you and formulate a plan based on what you think. Nobody here can tell you what to do. I know what tools I would use but that doesn't mean you are comfortable with them. We can only lay out possible options for you. Have you contacted a trainer?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Perfectly said Jax08... Lots of advice, now the OP justs needs to get some professional help and go with what seems to help her and Harley.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I've seen many dogs being walked muzzled. The owners walk with confidence. I've observed people passing and they don't grab their children and run, nor do I hear them make any comments. They just walk by. I don't think anything of it. 

Your neighbours know what happened. Muzzling your dog makes a statement that you are taking action. I bet your neighbours expect to see your dog muzzled. 

Rumor around here is that one of two labs got away from the owner and bit a teen tearing his jeans She was court ordered to muzzle the dog in public and to walk them separately. I see her walking both dogs totally ignoring the order, granted it was a rumor. 

I think it is better to muzzle your dog now as a training tool rather than be ordered to muzzle your dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If people make a comment about the muzzle you don't have to tell them what happened. You can just say that you don't want your dog to kill small animals and people might think mice or rabbits. 
If you do decide on a muzzle, make sure you get a basket muzzle that allows panting. The canvas snout muzzles will keep his mouth closed.
It sounds like you doing OK with him.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

In going through the old posts pertaining to questions I have, I've seen people mention muzzling when their dogs have teeth problems too. If you'd worried about the stigma of the muzzle, you can make up any story, lol. If you decide to use one, that is. I don't think it would be a bad idea right now, considering the injuries. The dog didn't just get it's neck broken, after all.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

E-Collar is the way to go. Have had a lot of recent success preventing a DA reactive dog from charging other dogs with this tool. The key is stim the behavior not the site of another dog. This way the dog learns it can look at other dogs it can sniff other dogs and play with other dogs, but if he gets into a charging frame of mind he recieves a stim. This dog has been able to go to the dog park initially muzzled and is now off muzzle and is able to interact properly with another dog. Also, do some recall excersices with the e-collar to reinforce the here command. A dog in prey can be very hard to stop especially if your handling is sub par. The E Collar can quickly counter condition the charge reflex especially when paired with a verbal command. I like it better then the prong and it actually stresses the dog less, when they get into that charge mode. Before moving to the E Collar do your research and set the groundwork properly and you should see very posative results. Good Luck.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This dog has been able to go to the dog park initially muzzled and is now off muzzle and is able to interact properly with another dog.


Was there a transitional period when that dog was wearing both the muzzle and the ecollar? I'm pretending that Harley is mine, lol - I hope OP doesn't mind! Because I know I'd be muzzling right now, simply in case another dog charged. That's what got the first one killed.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Absolutely, the dog wore a basket muzzle for the first few times upon entering the park. Initially I just used the muzzle and leash but I found that using the ecollar actually improved my control over the explosions. it also freed the dog up to run from the other dogs if she felt like it or to engage in the kind of play we all know GSDs like which can also be confused with aggression. Basically the scenario was her getting constantly tested by meeting dogs with a variety of dispositions. The muzzle was removed after I noted her body language become more consistently relaxed. If anything the removal of the muzzle caused greater relaxation. She still hackles when first entering the park and sometimes does a charge (depending on the dog) but these instances are becoming less frequent and shorter in duration. She spends more time just watching all the other dogs and playing tag with the ones that she likes.
Just got back from another session today infact. It should also be noted that I use a much higher level of stim in this type of exposure. I find that when she gets into reactive mode lower levels that she would initially respond too had no effect. She usually works well on level one, I use a 5-7 in the park. She is still a work in progress but is 75% better then before. I plan to progress to OB inside te park once she is 100% comfortable. (Already having her do some basic commands)


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

myshepharley said:


> I am getting some that say do this and then some that say don't. What advice do I go with?


You go with what makes the most sense that feels comfortable to you, for your situation. 

The reason these forums are priceless: you get 100 opinions, and you can choose only one. I did this when my dog was having vomiting issues and the people here helped solve my problem. It is the way it should be. 

As for people asking-- they probably won't. But if they do, you can always say, "It keeps him focused."


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## cornishbecky (Oct 10, 2010)

I have followed this story throughout and have nothing but sympethy (?sp) for you.

Here in England Prong collars are either banned (cant remember) or just so frowned uppon ive never seen one. but i dont like the thought of them at all.

I have a DA GSD and have sweared by the Halti, why have i not seen anybody mention this? it gives you COMPLETE control of the face/head/muzzle, perfect, no need for a muzzle or fear of hurting your dog with the prong?

Bec


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cornishbecky said:


> I have followed this story throughout and have nothing but sympethy (?sp) for you.
> 
> Here in England Prong collars are either banned (cant remember) or just so frowned uppon ive never seen one. but i dont like the thought of them at all.
> 
> ...


Prong collars are a TRAINING tool - not just a hoped for control tool. Tha idea is to train the dog not to act badly. A Halti is a would be control/management tool. 

BTW, ever see a really strong determined dog with a less than strong handler with a halti? Hopwe you don't - just recently I saw a Leonburger puppy (about 13 months old) pull it's regular sized (but dog expewrienced) handler rall the way across the sidewalk to greet another dog. Fortunately the dog was just being a puppy and is as friendly as possible but she could not hold the dog at all. And this Leonberger is one of the most laid back lazy dogs that you would ever see.

BTW, where did you get the idea that a prong "hurts the dog"? 

Have you seen how a Halti works? Next time you see one in action - take a close look at what it does to a dogs neck and face when the dog pulls hard.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs hate haltis visibly. I have never seen a dog literally HATE a prong collar. And I am certainly not pro-prong at all. I tried them a couple of times, and feel that generally I can get the same results other ways. 

Also, a determined dog will pull itself right out of a halti. Now they package them with a little thin nylon strap to connect the leash to the collar in the event that the dog pulls out of the head-collar,

The idea of the Halti is that the dog can pull forever from the shoulders and neck, but their head cannot pull as much weight. So yes, a 130 pound person should be able to turn the dog's head away from whatever they are fixating on, and the dog should not be able to drag you down the street within reason.

Leonbergers are huge. A 90 pound Leonberger bitch is undersized. A 120 - 140 pound exhuberant puppy can pull you across the street in a head collar, prong collar whatever if they think they can.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Halti's are for horses. I would rather use a prong (never use it anyways) than a halti or "gentle" leader. They might look gentle but they are plain annoying for dogs.
martin gales are the only type I use for any dog along with intelligent training/teaching.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Martingales are for horses too. I sell standing martingales and running martingales, they call them training forks sometimes. I also sell German martingales. But they are all for horses. 

I prefer to use martingales on dogs too. Some people call them a humane choke, which I do not like at all. They are, when properly fitted, not supposed to choke the dog, they just keep the dog's head from slipping out of the collar. They do not provide any correction, but if you have one with a chain (where the prong has a chain) they can provide a audible queue to the dog that the leash is no longer loose enough. 

Personally, I think people who cannot control a dog without a prong or e-collar or halti, should not own the dog. That is extreme, but my reasoning is that a collar only works so long as it is attached to the dog and there is some means by which the person can communicate/control the collar. If the collar fails, if the prongs come open (happens), if the dog slips the halti, then you have a naked dog that you cannot control. That is bad, and it can be bad for the dog, and bad for the breed, and other dog owners. 

This is why I kind of dislike prong and e-collars and halti-types. I think people become dependent on them like a crutch, instead of using them as an aide to train the dog, they use them like power steering, and by-pass the whole bit about training the dog. That Leonburger pup is a HUGE liability. It's being handled by someone who has no control. They are not big lap dogs. They are German Mastiff-type guarding dogs that can be quite a challenge if their people do not know what they are doing. 

Using a training aide while working on leadership and basic manners/obedience, and any behavioral issues, is fine. The prong works like a dream for most dogs. And why bother spending the money and doing the work in class and out of it, when with the prong collar the dog is great?

http://www.google.com/translate_t?t...h the wound can fester and&langpair=auto|auto


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol wrap a prong around your thigh and have someone give you a stiff correction. See what kind of damage gets done.. I really dislike comments that display such ignorance towards a tool that is very effective, and arguable better for the dog then a chain choke. I thank god on a regular basis I dont live in europe were the animal rights morons are slowly taking over and and erradicating commen sense. A prong looks bad therefor it must be bad...
I use a prong because less corrections are required to obtain the same result. Why should I have correct a dog harder and more often when there is another option? After a dog has worn a prong for a while even if you switch back to a flat collar the respect for the leash should be much increased. I dont know very many people that can rely on a prong supplanting regular training its merely an aid not an end.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

A prong is a training tool to me. And it has to be used in conjunction with training. It is not just a matter of slapping on the prong and off we go! The idea is to train, train, and train some more. The prong only gets used if the dog doesn't comply with the command. And the ultimate goal is to not have to correct with the collar.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Caledon said:


> Your neighbours know what happened. Muzzling your dog makes a statement that you are taking action. I bet your neighbours expect to see your dog muzzled.


That's exactly what I was thinking.

If the neighbors see you walking your dog WITHOUT a muzzle, they might feel unsafe, and they might feel you aren't taking their safety concerns seriously. "I can't believe she's walking that dog-killing beast on our street without a muzzle!" That sort of thing.

OTOH, if they see you walking the dog WITH a muzzle, they may feel more comfortable. They can see that you are being responsible in taking steps to prevent an accident, that you are taking things seriously, and they will probably look upon both you and the dog more favorably.

I missed the thread about what happened. Since I wasn't there and I don't know your dog, I can't comment on whether it was dog-aggression or prey drive that caused the attack, and whether it is really necessary to use a muzzle if you have complete control over the dog. However, if it were my dog, I'd use a muzzle on walks, just to appease my neighbors if nothing else. I'd buy a nice wire basket muzzle, something light and comfortable, that allows him to pant. The wire ones also tend to look less "scary". Something like this:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Selzer....please take this constructively....there are many many dogs of this breed that the prong is the best tool. Many of the people using them are kind, caring, loving of their dog, superb trainers who have forgot more about those things your bring up than most will ever learn in a lifetime. They choose to use the best tool for the dog they have. Selzer you do not have great experience with the stronger harder dogs....they are alive and doing well all over the country. My problem with thinking like yours is it will lead to a complete character change in the breed like happened to a majority of American lines with similar thinking.....so we no longer see these dogs doing much of what they did for 80 years. This scares me cause I saw this take place in America in past 50 years and it was thinking along the lines of your reasoning about pinch, ecollars, and halti. Of course you are entitled to your opinion or perception, but there are far too many nice GS being bred for strong work successfully, and many excellent owners/handlers/trainers using these tool correctly to go backwards or change the breed. This breed was meant for strong drink....and strong measures more often compliment this breed into the strong character that is needed for responsible work the breed was created for. The tools that are used have no correlation with the understanding of training, or bonding, or caring for a dog.jmo
PS...if you eliminate people that use pinches, ecollars, from owning this breed....I can assure you the nature of this breed will change and you can forget this breed remaining hearty and strong.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know the OP has gotten alot of advice and is probably overwhelmed on just "what' to do. I can't blame her at all for being leery, after what happened.

Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth..I would use a prong with a backup martingale/collar "something" if the prong were to fail . You can buy a 'coupler' and attach it to both the collar/prong and use one leash. 

I'm all for other things if you have an easy going, compliant dog, but face it, we never know what 'could' happen out there walking/hiking whatever. We not only maybe have to worry about 'our' (general our) dog, but we have to worry about OTHER dogs as well. I carry pepper spray (haven't used it yet, and with my luck I'll spray myself or the my dog but atleast I have it). 

I have/had some tough dogs, I start with a prong and go with a martingale when I feel I have complete control. 

Some dogs are easy, some are not, I never woobie woobie my tougher dogs, I know what i have on the end of the leash and I deal with it accordingly. 

In the end, do what your comfortable with, what you think you can handle and be confident knowing you can control situations.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> @Selzer....please take this constructively....there are many many dogs of this breed that the prong is the best tool. Many of the people using them are kind, caring, loving of their dog, superb trainers who have forgot more about those things your bring up than most will ever learn in a lifetime. They choose to use the best tool for the dog they have. Selzer you do not have great experience with the stronger harder dogs....they are alive and doing well all over the country. My problem with thinking like yours is it will lead to a complete character change in the breed like happened to a majority of American lines with similar thinking.....so we no longer see these dogs doing much of what they did for 80 years. This scares me cause I saw this take place in America in past 50 years and it was thinking along the lines of your reasoning about pinch, ecollars, and halti. Of course you are entitled to your opinion or perception, but there are far too many nice GS being bred for strong work successfully, and many excellent owners/handlers/trainers using these tool correctly to go backwards or change the breed. This breed was meant for strong drink....and strong measures more often compliment this breed into the strong character that is needed for responsible work the breed was created for. The tools that are used have no correlation with the understanding of training, or bonding, or caring for a dog.jmo
> PS...if you eliminate people that use pinches, ecollars, from owning this breed....I can assure you the nature of this breed will change and you can forget this breed remaining hearty and strong.


I wish there was a like button.. We arent dealing with toy poodles here folks. I love this breed because they are intense, intelligent and dont do anything by half. These attributes make these dogs great workers but they also require the right kind of handling. I much prefer a hard dog to sensative dog. These arent for everyone, and when they become for everyone ill know they wont be for me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Martingales are for horses too. I sell standing martingales and running martingales, they call them training forks sometimes. I also sell German martingales. But they are all for horses.
> 
> I prefer to use martingales on dogs too. Some people call them a humane choke, which I do not like at all. They are, when properly fitted, not supposed to choke the dog, they just keep the dog's head from slipping out of the collar. They do not provide any correction, but if you have one with a chain (where the prong has a chain) they can provide a audible queue to the dog that the leash is no longer loose enough.
> 
> ...


You are totally entitled to your own opinion (as is everyone, of course). However, just to set the record straight, that Leonburger is a threat to NO ONE - he is among the most gentle calm dog that i have ever seen. VERY VERY laid back even with other snappy dogs in the class. Have you ever met a normally temperamented Leonburger? The breeder tells me that many of them are like this guy.

Just an example I used of the potential benefit of a properly fitted and properly used prong collar - they work!

A good trainer will use the proper tool and method for the individual dog not try to fit whatever they like to all dogs - it don't work that way.

Since you seem like you don't like many of the tools used for training dogs, i.e. slip, prong amd e-collars; I got to wonder how you feel about a "crutch" that most everyone uses - a leash? A truly properly trained dog shouldn't need one of these either, or have I misread your message?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> I got to wonder how you feel about a "crutch" that most everyone uses - a leash? A truly properly trained dog shouldn't need one of these either, or have I misread your message?


Funny you should say that - my old motto, going back many years, used to be, "Train or restrain" because so many people used to get angry that my dog was off leash. My dog was walking right beside me, and wouldn't leave my side, so I used to throw that back at them to shut them up. I know it was rude, but I didn't think they should be telling me how to control my dog, when I'd already put in the training time to have him under control, lol. It was all the people who's dogs had no training saying this, BTW. They didn't have the option to loose the leash, or they would have lost their dogs.

There's a Leonburger in our Therapy Dog group, and she's the mellowest dog I've ever met. She barely moves, other than her sweeping tail.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> Personally, I think people who cannot control a dog without a prong or e-collar or halti, should not own the dog. That is extreme, but my reasoning is that a collar only works so long as it is attached to the dog and there is some means by which the person can communicate/control the collar. If the collar fails, if the prongs come open (happens), if the dog slips the halti, then you have a naked dog that you cannot control. That is bad, and it can be bad for the dog, and bad for the breed, and other dog owners.


I am reading this as saying that if the *only *way you can control the dog is with the prong, then you are not capable of keeping that dog under control and perhaps the breed is too much dog for you.

Not that you should not use a prong. But that you should use a prong as a tool, not as the only means of control without taking the time and energy to do the necessary training.

How'd I do?


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

you can also carry mace on your walks. i carry mace due to the loose dogs around here, a wire muzzle and you carrying mace might make you feel more secure and relaxed on your walks...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

mebully21 said:


> you can also carry mace on your walks. i carry mace due to the loose dogs around here, a wire muzzle and you carrying mace might make you feel more secure and relaxed on your walks...


Excellent idea. I carry bear spray.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> @Selzer....please take this constructively....there are many many dogs of this breed that the prong is the best tool. Many of the people using them are kind, caring, loving of their dog, superb trainers who have forgot more about those things your bring up than most will ever learn in a lifetime. They choose to use the best tool for the dog they have. Selzer you do not have great experience with the stronger harder dogs....they are alive and doing well all over the country. My problem with thinking like yours is it will lead to a complete character change in the breed like happened to a majority of American lines with similar thinking.....so we no longer see these dogs doing much of what they did for 80 years. This scares me cause I saw this take place in America in past 50 years and it was thinking along the lines of your reasoning about pinch, ecollars, and halti. Of course you are entitled to your opinion or perception, but there are far too many nice GS being bred for strong work successfully, and many excellent owners/handlers/trainers using these tool correctly to go backwards or change the breed. This breed was meant for strong drink....and strong measures more often compliment this breed into the strong character that is needed for responsible work the breed was created for. The tools that are used have no correlation with the understanding of training, or bonding, or caring for a dog.jmo
> PS...if you eliminate people that use pinches, ecollars, from owning this breed....I can assure you the nature of this breed will change and you can forget this breed remaining hearty and strong.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Thanks you so much for this Cliff!!! What a wonderful and well-put explanation of an important issue that is hard to understand for someone who has not handled a good strong dog. 

Also people should keep in mind that even a strong dog that needs more experienced handling than the average pet owner is still a wonderful dog in the home and out and about. It does not mean that the dog is always teetering on the brink of being out-of-control in everyday situations, and thus needs a prong. The prong is there because the owner/handler knows just what a strong dog is, and it is an assurance of extra control.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> It does not mean that the dog is always teetering on the brink of being out-of-control in everyday situations, and thus needs a prong. The prong is there because the owner/handler knows just what a strong dog is, and it is an assurance of extra control.


I can vouch for this. 

I have been needing the prong lately because Hans is getting unbelievably strong and is at the age where he is testing his limits-- and twice nearly pulled my arm out of its socket going after a bunny. 

I did manage to keep him under control on the flat collar, but my hands and shoulder paid the price. 

There is no way I am going to risk injury because I "should" be able to do this without a prong. 
So, prong we are using, for now, until he understands that, despite his bull strength and determination, I continue to be "She Who Must be Obeyed"


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> This breed was meant for strong drink....and strong measures more often compliment this breed into the strong character that is needed for responsible work the breed was created for. The tools that are used have no correlation with the understanding of training, or bonding, or caring for a dog.jmo
> PS...if you eliminate people that use pinches, ecollars, from owning this breed....I can assure you the nature of this breed will change and you can forget this breed remaining hearty and strong.


Totally agree. While many dogs may not require a prong, I've never owned a GSD that didn't benefit from a prong collar, at least in the training stages. Now, my 11 year old working-bred female no longer requires a prong collar, and hasn't for some time, but she was definitely more controllable WITH a prong at a certain stage. She used to pull pretty hard on leash, and little nagging tugs didn't phase her. And yet, she lived and died to please me, just didn't quite "get" why she shouldn't pull. The prong provided the clarity she needed, as she would correct herself, walk nicely at heel, and then get the praise she craved. 

Now, you can call me an inferior trainer for using a prong as a "crutch" or whatever, but the fact of the matter from my perspective is that the prong collar actually improved our relationship. Corrections were clear and precise and understandable to the dog, making it easier for her to figure out what I wanted from her. She'd get so excited when I took out the prong collar (actually all my dogs have) because it meant we were either going for a walk or going to training.

And harder dogs do require harder equipment. They tend to ignore pain and pressure, especially when in drive, and then if you have a 90 pound handler with an 88 pound dog, you're going to need a physical assist at times. I'm a 135 pound handler with a 70 lb. dog and she could dang near pull me over during protection training. 

I have to say I get a bit nervous when I'm walking down the street with my dog and I see a small woman with a large Rott or Pit Bull wearing a big wide leather collar, pulling their way toward us. Though I'll admit I get just as nervous when the dog is wearing a prong that is about four links too loose, but that is another subject.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah this is mostly for the handler's control of the dog rather than what's a better tool at this point. The dog is a little aggressive...but the main issue is that the OP can't control the dog. The issue at hand is that the leash slipped out of OP's hand when the dog lunged/tugged hard and there was nothing there to make the dog uncomfortable enough to stop the lunge at the point of most resistance. The martingale in my opinion won't stop this dog anyways...the halti is a good choice but so is a prong. A prong that is correctly placed in my opinion is a better choice just because you can be PROACTIVE with the prong rather than just having the halti IN CASE the dog lunges or tries to go after something.

Just coming from an outsider point of view...I'd rather see a muzzle on your dog than not. You've shown your neighbors that you don't have 100% control of the dog, so of course if I was a neighbor I'd be worried. At least with a muzzle on I know your dog can't do anything if you do lose control of him. The way I look at it, even if the dog is "dangerous" as long as you can keep him under control I could care less. But since you've shown that you can't, you should show that you're taking precautions to make sure if you do lose control he still won't be able to do anything.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Funny you should say that - my old motto, going back many years, used to be, "Train or restrain" because so many people used to get angry that my dog was off leash. My dog was walking right beside me, and *wouldn't leave my side*, so I used to throw that back at them to shut them up. I know it was rude, but I didn't think they should be telling me how to control my dog, when I'd already *put in the training time to have him under control,* lol. It was all the people who's dogs had no training saying this, BTW. They didn't have the option to loose the leash, or they would have lost their dogs.
> 
> There's a Leonburger in our Therapy Dog group, and she's the mellowest dog I've ever met. She barely moves, other than her sweeping tail.


 
If one can guarantee that their dog is under voice control 100% no matter the distractions, then i say go for it off leash!

I don't know of many dogs that can even come close but if yours does; then no leash is needed of course.

mine isn't quite there yet so i will keep a leash on him.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Martingales are for horses too. I sell standing martingales and running martingales, they call them training forks sometimes. I also sell German martingales. But they are all for horses.
> 
> I prefer to use martingales on dogs too. Some people call them a humane choke, which I do not like at all. They are, when properly fitted, not supposed to choke the dog, they just keep the dog's head from slipping out of the collar. They do not provide any correction, but if you have one with a chain (where the prong has a chain) they can provide a audible queue to the dog that the leash is no longer loose enough.
> 
> ...


You are totally entitled to your own opinion (as is everyone, of course). However, just to set the record straight, that Leonburger is a threat to NO ONE - he is among the most gentle calm dog that i have ever seen. VERY VERY laid back even with other snappy dogs in the class. Have you ever met a normally temperamented Leonburger? The breeder tells me that many of them are like this guy.

Just an example I used of the potential benefit of a properly fitted and properly used prong collar - they work!

A good trainer will use the proper tool and method for the individual dog not try to fit whatever they like to all dogs - it don't work that way.

Since you seem like you don't like many of the tools used for training dogs, i.e. slip, prong amd e-collars; I got to wonder how you feel about a "crutch" that most everyone uses - a leash? A truly properly trained dog shouldn't need one of these either, or have I misread your message?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> If one can guarantee that their dog is under voice control 100% no matter the distractions, then i say go for it off leash!


In my heart I agree with you, but I have a funny feeling that those days are over. Although I'm still training my current puppy to walk with me. We practice this in the dog park when other dogs are there. It's not just a simple matter of thinking that just because your dog doesn't pull on the leash, he doesn't need one, lol. But you never know when you're going to slip on some ice, and think you've broken your wrist when you used it to break your fall, and you limp home carrying that wrist with the other one. Please don't ask me how I know about this, lmao. Teaching your dog to walk beside you comes in very very handy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> You are totally entitled to your own opinion (as is everyone, of course). However, just to set the record straight, that Leonburger is a threat to NO ONE - he is among the most gentle calm dog that i have ever seen. VERY VERY laid back even with other snappy dogs in the class. Have you ever met a normally temperamented Leonburger? The breeder tells me that many of them are like this guy.


I have had contact with one Leonburger and she attacked my dog. The rest of the class she was very focused on my dog, so focused that I stepped in front of my dog to break that focus. I would love to see more of this breed to determine what my opinion of them are. Right now, its not that great and I don't trust them. And this was what would be considered a well trained dog...imagine if it didn't have any training? My dog would be dead, considering the Leonburger went for my dogs neck. I was lucky and her owner had enough control to pull her off my dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> If one can guarantee that their dog is under voice control 100% no matter the distractions, then i say go for it off leash!


Somewhere down the line the best trained dogs will forget for just a brief moment what they are suppose to do. And everyone of them that I've heard about paid with their lives. I don't care how trained my dog is, I will never have her off leash. One slip up is not worth her life. I actually get really nervous when I see people without leashes on their dogs. I tend to go the other way, real fast.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Somewhere down the line the best trained dogs will forget for just a brief moment what they are suppose to do. And everyone of them that I've heard about paid with their lives.


To be honest, it sounds like all the dogs you're talking about weren't properly trained, and definitely not proofed - the owners made a tragic mistake giving their dogs that much freedom.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> To be honest, it sounds like all the dogs you're talking about weren't properly trained, and definitely not proofed - the owners made a tragic mistake giving their dogs that much freedom.


One of them was 12 years old. He had a rock solid recall for all of those years...ALWAYS off leash. Until the day he seen a squirrel and decided to go after it...very sad. It happens and it happens all the time. All it takes is for the dog to have an off day and an owner that doesn't expect a dog to react.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It isn't a question of rock solid recall. It's a question of rock solid remaining at your side, no matter what sort of distraction presents itself or what kind of day the dog is having. Anyway, you aren't letting your dogs off leash so you won't have that problem. And even if I choose to, I won't be doing it any time soon.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> It isn't a question of rock solid recall. It's a question of rock solid remaining at your side, no matter what sort of distraction presents itself or what kind of day the dog is having. *Anyway, you aren't letting your dogs off leash so you won't have that problem. *And even if I choose to, I won't be doing it any time soon.


Which is exactly what the OP thought! How many GSDs have caught and killed rabbits, birds, squirrels, etc. and not been suddenly labeled a menace or dangerous? How many of those dogs now wear a muzzle or an e-collar? Suddenly, there's all this talk of the OP's dog being DA, when the OP never said that, the dog never demonstrated that? In fact, she said the dog walked past that same situation for five years without a reaction. This one day, the dog decided to go after that 'prey' and now everyone wants to put an unwarranted label on this dog. Yes, it was a dog and not a rabbit, but whether or not the dog realized that is the major issue. The OP took the dog back out after this, and the dog had zero reaction to any other dogs. It's still not a DA dog. What failed is control of keeping the dog from running off. Easily managed by changing tools and being more aware. The over kill reaction here is making my head hurt.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jag said:


> Which is exactly what the OP thought! How many GSDs have caught and killed rabbits, birds, squirrels, etc. and not been suddenly labeled a menace or dangerous? How many of those dogs now wear a muzzle or an e-collar? Suddenly, there's all this talk of the OP's dog being DA, when the OP never said that, the dog never demonstrated that? In fact, she said the dog walked past that same situation for five years without a reaction. This one day, the dog decided to go after that 'prey' and now everyone wants to put an unwarranted label on this dog. Yes, it was a dog and not a rabbit, but whether or not the dog realized that is the major issue. The OP took the dog back out after this, and the dog had zero reaction to any other dogs. It's still not a DA dog. What failed is control of keeping the dog from running off. Easily managed by changing tools and being more aware. The over kill reaction here is making my head hurt.


:thumbup: Always be on your toes...with any dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:surrender:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> You are totally entitled to your own opinion (as is everyone, of course). However, just to set the record straight, that Leonburger is a threat to NO ONE - he is among the most gentle calm dog that i have ever seen. VERY VERY laid back even with other snappy dogs in the class. Have you ever met a normally temperamented Leonburger? The breeder tells me that many of them are like this guy.
> 
> Just an example I used of the potential benefit of a properly fitted and properly used prong collar - they work!
> 
> ...



I train with Leonbergers all the time. And yes, they have good temperaments. I have also had a Leonberger charge into my dog and she was not playing. Her owner was on top of her though. 

I really don't have much trouble with a slip collar, I own prong collars, slip collars, my preference is martingales, but those are not training collars. I won't use an e-collar. 

I think Sunflowers had it correct, and my point is not for people who want a dog better behaved, more responsive, whatever, and are using the prong properly. My problem are people who cannot walk down the street with the dog unless it has a prong on. Not those that choose to use a prong because the dog responds better. But people that without the prong, the dog would be across the street chewing on another dog or person. 

I train with people who use prongs all the time. It doesn't get any response from me at all. I do not think they are worse trainers for using them. There ARE people who do not bother to train, but just put a prong on the dog and shazaam! the dog is fixed. That, I think is a problem with prongs. These same people might have the prong on wrong, or whatever. They are probably not dog forum junkies. 

As for leashes, I use a leash when I am off my property and the dog is not ready to be off lead. This week, I went out with Babs in my car because I am short a kennel. So I took her to work with me and she stayed in the car. Then I ran home and let Heidi potty, and then I let Babs potty, put her back in the car and headed out to my sister's to play pinochle. On my way home, I thought that Babs could stretch her legs, and I didn't have a leash in the Honda, so I didn't use one. She stayed at a heel all the way around a full country block, and back to my car. No biggie, it's a small town, and it was late, and Babs is well-trained. 

I never use leashes at home. I have fencing in the back, but in the front there are none, and to get to my car, they need to be in an unfenced area, where the neighbors now have two loose dogs, the black lab, and now a beagle. When I let my girls out, the go directly to my car, they do not go for the other dogs, not yet anyway, and even the puppies go right for the car. If I do not go for the car, they will go with me through the front yard, around the back yard fencing, or down into the ravine where I might let them go for a dip in the River. We don't use leashes for this. Someday one of them might decide to take off after a deer or coyote or stray dog, and that would kill me. So it is a risk. But it is a risk I only take if I feel the dog is ready for that. 

Lastly, Cliff, I never suggested removing the freedom of choosing to use a prong collar. Nor will I. But I have to ask you, because you talk of dogs that should be hard, should require a prong? Well, what do they do in Europe where prongs are not legal? Do they just not have strong dogs with good character over there, or can they manage to train with out the collars?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I have had contact with one Leonburger and she attacked my dog. The rest of the class she was very focused on my dog, so focused that I stepped in front of my dog to break that focus. I would love to see more of this breed to determine what my opinion of them are. Right now, its not that great and I don't trust them. And this was what would be considered a well trained dog...imagine if it didn't have any training? My dog would be dead, considering the Leonburger went for my dogs neck. I was lucky and her owner had enough control to pull her off my dog.


Can't blame you for not liking leonbergers with one attacking your dog. same thinking as a lot of folks i know about pitties. And going for your dogs neck - that certainly seems kind of viscious!

You were very lucky that the Leon's owner was a VERY strong person - was the owner a man or a woman? They are VERY large, strong dogs!

Is your dog a GSD? I would guess that you had to fight to hold your dog back as well - I know I would have had to pull like heck if my dog got attacked by any dog!

Tough situation!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First, Selzer...my post was not about what I like, but rather about what the breed should be in general....a working dog. I accept the dog for what it is supposed to be and supposed to be able to do and I try to keep that strong.
As for your question about Europe....all the breedable German Shepherds in Europe have Sch titles and the culture of the breed in Europe is to train their dogs of this type....whether it is with pinch collars or without. The pinch is a tool, what difference does it make if a person uses this tool to assist them in walking a strong dog?(other than your personal like), I see no downside to a person using a tool appropriately to achieve a purpose. I have recommended many pinch collars to individuals to help them walk their dogs with less conflict. Overwhelmingly, I have had positive feedback on what results....many of these people are not interested in extensive training to use the tool as you see fit. What usually occurs is that these dogs are in the 10 month to 18 month phase of strong pulling and reaction to stimuli and the pinch can be a self correcting tool that as the dog becomes accustomed to the routine of the daily walk or exercise and the dog matures the need for the pinch has basically evaporated and the people have a dog that they enjoy on these outings. I find this the case far more often than I do the exception negative uses or ineffectiveness of the pinch. So as a responsible trainer, should I recommend the exception or what I see that works the most. As a professional, do I recommend what I LIKE, or what best meets the needs of the individual. I guess it's all how you view it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> First, Selzer...my post was not about what I like, but rather about what the breed should be in general....a working dog. I accept the dog for what it is supposed to be and supposed to be able to do and I try to keep that strong.
> As for your question about Europe....all the breedable German Shepherds in Europe have Sch titles and the culture of the breed in Europe is to train their dogs of this type....whether it is with pinch collars or without. The pinch is a tool, what difference does it make if a person uses this tool to assist them in walking a strong dog?(other than your personal like), I see no downside to a person using a tool appropriately to achieve a purpose. I have recommended many pinch collars to individuals to help them walk their dogs with less conflict. Overwhelmingly, I have had positive feedback on what results....many of these people are not interested in extensive training to use the tool as you see fit. What usually occurs is that these dogs are in the 10 month to 18 month phase of strong pulling and reaction to stimuli and the pinch can be a self correcting tool that as the dog becomes accustomed to the routine of the daily walk or exercise and the dog matures the need for the pinch has basically evaporated and the people have a dog that they enjoy on these outings. I find this the case far more often than I do the exception negative uses or ineffectiveness of the pinch. So as a responsible trainer, should I recommend the exception or what I see that works the most. As a professional, do I recommend what I LIKE, or what best meets the needs of the individual. I guess it's all how you view it.


Actually, I have recommended pinch/prong collars as well. I certainly would recommend them over a halti -- I think they are safer than a halti in a couple of ways. But a halti looks humane. BTW, people see the halti and think it is a muzzle, and will think you have a bad dog, with those as well.

I HAVE them. I do not HATE them. I do not choose to use them most of the time because I find them unnecessary. I don't like people saying, how soon can I use a prong when they have an eight week old puppy they are taking home. Ick! I don't like it that for many people, the prong gives them what they need, and they find continuing training unnecessary. That isn't everyone that uses them, and I have said that a number of times.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

No problem Selzer....I know you don't hate them....if I had your dogs I wouldn't use one either...shoot I am not using one on my 12 month male that I can assure you in other hands it would probably be better. But fortunately there are a lot of people who have dogs that it is the better tool. So I get concerned when people are led to believe the tool is not valuable or humane.( I know you haven't said this).... Much rather see the people who have experience training dogs acknowledge the value though making it clear its good for some dogs and unnecessary for others. Thanks for your response.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah it would be scary if potential puppy owners asked that question...this is my first dog. I actually never wanted to use a prong collar. We tried so hard to train without one. But my boy was too social and too driven for us to handle without a prong by the age of 8 months. It finally took my training instructor to tell me that I'm holding my dog back and I just need to get over the fact that a prong doesn't look all that nice.

I don't know if it says more about the dog or the handler if they're able to train without a prong...but its true. Look at any Schutzhund training session and I don't believe you'll see any other collar but a prong. The correction you get from a prong is so much more effective and quick than anything I have yet to see.

In my opinion a halti doesn't teach the dog not to do something, it just prevents it when it happens. But with a prong you can actually train a dog not to do something like lunge/pull.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The Halti is dangerous and dogs hate them. Yet I think only the AKC bans them at their events along with prong and e-collars, where a choke chain is perfectly acceptable. 

I have Haltis too. I don't use them. I will never suggest them. 

When you put a prong on a dog for the first time, and the first time the dog gets to the end of it, and corrects himself, they are like "Oh, what was that?" When you put a Halti on a dog for the first time, they will pull at it, try to rub it off, struggle with you, try to back out of it. 

Most tools CAN BE effective when used by someone who knows what they are doing. And with a proper introduction, the Halti, probably can be used effectively. It gives you control of the dog's head, and the dog cannot pull with his head as much as he can pull with his neck/shoulder areas. The dog will get used to it, and probably even get excited when you go get it, if that means you are going to take him with you, the same as they do with a prong collar, choke chain, or in Pippy's case, Dad's rubber hunting boots. 

Unfortunately, people are not skilled with the Halti. No, it does not take a Mensa to figure it out. But if you just spent six months with your dog dragging your arm out of the socket, the chances are when you put this on the dog, if the leash does get taut or the dog barks like crazy at a rock, sooner or later your are going to give it a pop. Popping a prong collar or choke chain delivers a correction, and is not going to hurt your dog. The dog will know he has been corrected. If you give the dog a pop with a head collar, you can hurt the dog. 

A dog that isn't a powder puff, snowflake dog, might fight the Halti -- had one of those. I put it on him, and he would shake his head and fight to get it off. And sometimes that worked. What a thing to teach your dog, if he backs up and shakes his head, the nasty thing connected to his nose and head, will go away. Lovely. 

No, I don't like haltis. 

Now if the Halti-people want to have a go at me, I guess now's the time.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Even Suzanne Clothier says that a head harness has too much potential to cause injury. It's at the bottom of this article. Training with the Prong Collar | Suzanne Clothier In my group class, our trainer said to use them. No way, said I, but 2 owners decided to. One dog went from pulling to jumping up and down on the spot and the other lost all of his joy and rubbed his face most of the class.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

See, I rarely hear any negatives about halti's and gentle leaders. 

In fact, I have had a trainer say to me, "Oh take that prong collar off of him, use this Halti." And I was young and dumb, and did it. Poor dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

For me, it was common sense not to use one. I saw what my puppy was doing (jumping and lunging) and imagined what would happen if he had a head harness on (jumping and lunging until he got to the end of it, and then what? His head would be yanked sideways and he hurt his neck?) and thought it would be dangerous to put one on him. If other people are having success with them, I'm happy that they found something to help them. But I think they're a very bad idea for our jumping and lunging beasties.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I have seen a Halti work for some dogs--it's just another tool in the toolbox, the trick is finding which tool works best for which dog. I've never used a Halti on any of my dogs, but it can be useful for some. My friend had a DA GSD who was totally controllable with a Halti and wouldn't even look at other dogs when he had it on. For him, it worked better than a prong collar.


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## cornishbecky (Oct 10, 2010)

Please dont think im not willing to learn i am, and im also not stupid,lol but here in the UK i have NEVER seen a prong anywhere, never in shops or on dogs, they are just not here, i dont think they are illegal they are just, i dont know, not used here.
So i have no experiance of them at all, only that every english dog trainer, highly respected police dog trainers i have met, never mention them or use them, so it was never an option for my dog, choke/check chains, i found caught in his long coat and didnt release (if you know what i mean) so the halti was the only thing that help me.
And to be honest if i were to buy one i think people reactions here would be frosty to say the least. no that he has aged and slightly mellowed i have started walking him on the check chain again.

And you use them and if you say they dont hurt/harm etc then i believe you

Bec x


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Becky there is a very good reason why prong collars are frowned upon in your country and not used. Take a good hard look at a prong collar, those prongs are designed to hurt - that is the idea behind it - the dog should feel the pain (called a pinch) and stop. The handler gives quick jerks to the prong collar to administer the correction. At least with the check chain that you use, the dog can go by even the clink of the chain when he pulls (I have used them in the past) and can self correct his behavior. I was going to suggest that the OP try the head halter. My vet highly recommends them when used properly, not pulling or jerking on it, but just stopping.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cliff?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mary Beth said:


> Becky there is a very good reason why prong collars are frowned upon in your country and not used. Take a good hard look at a prong collar, those *prongs are designed to hurt* - that is the idea behind it - the dog should feel the pain (called a pinch) and stop. The handler gives quick jerks to the prong collar to administer the correction. At least with the check chain that you use, the dog can go by even the clink of the chain when he pulls (I have used them in the past) and can *self correct his behavior*. I was going to suggest that the OP try *the head halter*. My vet highly recommends them when used properly, not pulling or jerking on it, but just stopping.


 
Mary Beth,
Your vet sounds like he/she is really an expert in dog training! Wonder how many dogs that they have trained in ANYTHING?

Have you ever even touched a prong collar?

in some circumstances, a prong is a VERY good training aid and works very well! Just like any other training tool!

Unbelievable!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Prong collars don't inflict pain. If they did, then that would mean that dogs' necks are sensitive to the pinch. If that was true, then dogs wouldn't grab each other with their teeth, by the neck, while they were playing.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> Becky there is a very good reason why prong collars are frowned upon in your country and not used. Take a good hard look at a prong collar, those prongs are designed to hurt - that is the idea behind it - the dog should feel the pain (called a pinch) and stop. The handler gives quick jerks to the prong collar to administer the correction. At least with the check chain that you use, the dog can go by even the clink of the chain when he pulls (I have used them in the past) and can self correct his behavior. I was going to suggest that the OP try the head halter. My vet highly recommends them when used properly, not pulling or jerking on it, but just stopping.


I was going to try the head halter but decided on the prong but I'm not sure I really like it. I took out two links but it still seems to work its way down his neck. Even if I don't give much slack. I might try the the halter.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Good to hear. I used it on my Dobe - she didn't mind it at all. In addition to helping control Harley (I have also read it can have a calming effect) , the head halter since some people mistake it for a muzzle, will also look better to the neighbors.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Prong collars don't inflict pain. If they did, then that would mean that dogs' necks are sensitive to the pinch. If that was true, then dogs wouldn't grab each other with their teeth, by the neck, while they were playing.


If the dogs neck isn't sensitive to the pinch, what purpose does the collar serve and how exactly does it work?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Not sensitive, as in not delicate or tender. Not inflicting "pain", per se. Like if I grabbed you by the arm, that isn't hurting you - it's getting your attention. If I pinched your skin with my thumb and index finger, then that might hurt, and I take it that this is why it's important to fit the collar snugly, so that it doesn't grab loose skin by accident.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Perhaps to avoid any discomfort or pain of any kind to the fur babies, we should just pray over them and hope for the best.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Perhaps to avoid any discomfort or pain of any kind to the fur babies, we should just pray over them and hope for the best.


:rofl:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Perhaps to avoid any discomfort or pain of any kind to the fur babies, we should just pray over them and hope for the best.


ohhhmmmmmm.....ohhhmmmmmm.....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Selzer....big LOL....some posts I don't chime in on because the poster or posters are experts in the subject matter....some I don't because they are the opposite. Common sense will tell you which is case this time.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Pinch collars do NOT pinch the way you feel someone pinching you. Common mistake to jump to that conclusion due to the name of the collar. 
Take a prong collar, put it around your leg, arm, or even your neck and tighten up on it - the 'pinching' action is distributed over a large area, and you only feel an tightening (do it! Tons of people do it, and realize that the collar is not evil). 

It isn't just two prongs pinching one spot like when a person takes two fingers and pinches skin, it IS more like what is being described as taking someone by the arm to get their attention - when you grab someone by the arm, your are using your whole hand and wrapping it around the whole arm, and tightening your grip so the person feels it.

If the person is really riled up and in a high state of exitement with the adrenaline flowing, just grabbing them by the arm may not even register to them, so you have to tighten your grip (like a pinch collar), and if the person is really histerical, you need to REALLY tighten your grip, and even give that person a **** jerk or shake to get their attention - you are not hurting the person, but using an appropriately strong physical interaction to get their attention. That is what the pinch collar is designed to do. 

This is another issue (use of a pinch collar) that people base their opinion on false information and opinions heard or read - not on actual experimenting and use of the equipment.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

But if something looks like a torture device, then it must hurt! Just look at it!
And in some places they're banned! You know what that means!! (heavy on the sarcasm)

I tried the experiment of putting it on someone's arm and tightening it. They had a funny look on their face (like, oh, it's nothing like I thought) so I said, "See, it's not what you thought, huh?" and they said *but it's not on my bare skin* OMG is there nothing you won't stop at to argue your point? My dog's neck isn't bare either, what's the difference?!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Not to mention that a dog's skin is NOT as sensitive as people's skin!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If the dogs neck isn't sensitive to the pinch, what purpose does the collar serve and how exactly does it work?


Yeah, bottom line, the pinch works because it is causing some kind of discomfort for the dog. Otherwise, a flat collar would work on a dog to control the _fill in the blank_ behavior. 

I missed what the OP decided to do? If this were my dog, I would muzzle for as long as needed and use a 2 collar system (or no slip collar/martingale harness combo*), plus classes or private training with someone who was Clothier based in their training if I could find that...that is an awful experience. I think I would have a hard time trusting my dog after and would really need to work on that relationship. Until that time, the dog would make zero choices - and would be looking to me for every decision - tethering, etc, in the house.

*Here is a picture of a no slip collar and a martingale harness combo on a lab mix puppy - using a coupler to connect them to one leash with a sturdy clasp - that's another part of the equation with any equipment. I have since then had a coupler made for me at www.k9noz.com This combo is pretty limiting and the martingale harness is my crutch with heavy pullers until I train them.  Just to give you an idea - and someone is holding the lab pup by both so they are bunched:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Castlemaid said:


> Not to mention that a dog's skin is NOT as sensitive as people's skin!


I am reading The Call of the Wild. Wow. The way they talk about the dogs being whipped and clubbed, and starved, and driven, even after being cut to the bone in dog fights. Just wow. But yeah, that is a novel, but still. 

One thing that isn't fiction though, and that is that GSDs tend to have a lot of hair in the neck area. This helps them in fights because it makes it hard for other dogs to get a choke hold on them. Putting a prong around your arm and yanking is probably more severe than putting it around a dog's hairy mane and yanking. 

But whatever. 

Dog's play by bringing their mouths down on other dogs. Was watching Jenna play with Hepzibah this morning. Hep is 7 months old, so no baby, but Jenna was being really gentle, keeping her mouth open as she went for the neck. Still, those canines are probably similar to prongs from a prong. Hep was having the time of her life dancing and playing with her mother. No aggression. Nothing painful. Just dogs with their hairy necks and big teeth having a good time.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jack's dad said:


> perhaps to avoid any discomfort or pain of any kind to the fur babies, we should just pray over them and hope for the best.:d


 
*ptl*


*heh! Heh!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Pinch collars do NOT pinch the way you feel someone pinching you. Common mistake to jump to that conclusion due to the name of the collar.
> Take a prong collar, put it around your leg, arm, or even your neck and tighten up on it - the 'pinching' action is distributed over a large area, and you only feel an tightening (do it! Tons of people do it, and realize that the collar is not evil).
> 
> It isn't just two prongs pinching one spot like when a person takes two fingers and pinches skin, it IS more like what is being described as taking someone by the arm to get their attention - when you grab someone by the arm, your are using your whole hand and wrapping it around the whole arm, and tightening your grip so the person feels it.
> ...


 
*What they said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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