# Sticky  Protective or fearful?



## Shadow's mum

Just curious.

How do you tell the difference between a dog being protective and a dog being fearful?


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## Jax's Mom

A fearful dog is protecting himself, while the protective dog is protecting you?


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## Shadow's mum

lol. Simple but to the point, and obvious. 

The reason I posted is because, I have posted about situations with Shadow in the past and had varying responses. Now that Shadow is that wee bit older, I think it has become more obvious when she is scared or unsure and when she is warning someone, "that's my family back off!".


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## gsdraven

There's more to it than this but very simplified:

A fearful dog is reacting to a non threatening situation or thing.

A protective dog reacts to an actual threat. (this can include a perceived threat by you if you are actually scared).


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## Lucy Dog

gsdraven said:


> There's more to it than this but very simplified:
> 
> A fearful dog is reacting to a non threatening situation or thing.
> 
> A protective dog reacts to an actual threat. (this can include a perceived threat by you if you are actually scared).


Exactly.

Is the dog reacting to a random person walking up to the car or near you on a walk posing no threat and it causes a reaction? If that's the case, it's probably fear.

Is someone threatening or yelling at you and your dog intervened? If that's the case, it's probably protection.

To be honest, if you're not sure, I'll bet 99% of the time it's fear.


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## Good_Karma

Lucy Dog said:


> To be honest, if you're not sure, I'll bet 99% of the time it's fear.


That's how I feel too.


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## Shadow's mum

I never said I was unsure.  
I was just curious about what others said.

I also don't think you can say that "if your unsure 99% of the time it would probably be fear" only because, a lot of posts I've read here the owners have been sure their dogs were being protective when in actual fact the dogs were probably scared.
Now I'm not sure if that all made sense, lol.
I'll try again, maybe it should just read "99% of the time, dogs reacting aggressively is a fear based reaction as opposite to being protective".


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## Lucy Dog

Shadow's mum said:


> I'll try again, maybe it should just read "99% of the time, dogs reacting aggressively is a fear based reaction as opposite to being protective".


Yeah... exactly what i meant.


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## Good_Karma

Okay, I understand now Shadow's Mum. 

Here's my relatively uninformed opinion on protectiveness versus fear...

Actually, I don't even think I can dare comment since I have never seen either of my dogs act in a way I felt was protective. I don't know what protectiveness looks like, to be completely honest.


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## martemchik

Owners think its protectiveness because they have a GSD and when it starts freaking out and barking they believe its protective and awesome, when in reality their dog is scared of whatever it heard or saw and is trying to make a bunch of noise because it's unsure. People get a GSD puppy, after reading how protective they get, and expect it to come naturally when in reality its something that comes out much later in life, or has to be taught to the dog.


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## Lucy Dog

martemchik said:


> Owners think its protectiveness because they have a GSD and when it starts freaking out and barking they believe its protective and awesome, when in reality their dog is scared of whatever it heard or saw and is trying to make a bunch of noise because it's unsure. People get a GSD puppy, after reading how protective they get, and expect it to come naturally when in reality its something that comes out much later in life, or has to be taught to the dog.


People want to believe their GSD is like the GSD they see in movies or on TV.


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## Shadow's mum

Ok here's one for all. Once again I know I'm going to get varying opinions. 

I took Shadow and my 12 year old son out for a walk yesterday. Shadow was happily sniffing the grass, tree's, footpath etc. We were in the newly established area across the road from our house, it was the first time we were in this area.
Shadow was taking every thing in. There were a couple of tradies on one of the allotments packing away their tools and talking amongst themselves. Shadow looked at them then sniffed at the newly planted tree and grass verge just next to the allotment. One of the men started talking to me about Shadow, Shadow looked at him but didn't react, we'd met this man several times before on walks just outside the development and at the front of our house, Shadow had always been stand offish but never barked or reacted to him.

Then man then came closer, at the same time my 12 year old stepped forward. Shadow then barked like crazy. My younger son walked behind me, the man took a few steps back, Shadow stopped. The man had a strong excited Irish accent, he squatted and Shadow then got closer and sniffed around him. She walked back to me. My son stepped forward again and Shadow barked at the man. As soon as the man moved away from my son she stopped again.

Shadow doesn't react this way very often, and she only ever does it when my younger son is present. Usually she is extremely friendly and sociable or she just isn't phased.

What is your interpretation of what I have described?


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## Castlemaid

Protectiveness comes from a place of complete calm and complete confidence. The dog will assess the situation, stay watchfull, and give warning growls. The look on their face often reads "don't try anything, buddy, I'm on top of it!"

Dogs lunging to the end of the leash, barking widely, hackling, looking around widely, switching their gaze from the person or thing to something else and back, and so on, are showing fear. 

In some cases, the difference is subtle because a fearful dog may be so good at the bravado, trying to act confident and sure in order to try and convince the threat that they mean it (though they are bluffing), that even an experienced person may have difficulty in seeing the difference. 

And as others said, the threat has to be real. A dog that barks at every passerby or random people approaching a vehicule, or every noise is reacting out of fear, because those are daily occurances that have never posed a threat.


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## Castlemaid

Shadow's mum said:


> Ok here's one for all. Once again I know I'm going to get varying opinions.
> 
> I took Shadow and my 12 year old son out for a walk yesterday. Shadow was happily sniffing the grass, tree's, footpath etc. We were in the newly established area across the road from our house, it was the first time we were in this area.
> Shadow was taking every thing in. There were a couple of tradies on one of the allotments packing away their tools and talking amongst themselves. Shadow looked at them then sniffed at the newly planted tree and grass verge just next to the allotment. One of the men started talking to me about Shadow, Shadow looked at him but didn't react, we'd met this man several times before on walks just outside the development and at the front of our house, Shadow had always been stand offish but never barked or reacted to him.
> 
> Then man then came closer, at the same time my 12 year old stepped forward. Shadow then barked like crazy. My younger son walked behind me, the man took a few steps back, Shadow stopped. The man had a strong excited Irish accent, he squatted and Shadow then got closer and sniffed around him. She walked back to me. My son stepped forward again and Shadow barked at the man. As soon as the man moved away from my son she stopped again.
> 
> Shadow doesn't react this way very often, and she only ever does it when my younger son is present. Usually she is extremely friendly and sociable or she just isn't phased.
> 
> What is your interpretation of what I have described?


How old is Shadow? This does sound like it could be protectiveness, but over-reacted a bit. Hard to tell without actually seeing her body language.

I would not accept this behaviour as "normal" or excuse it as being protective (I know you are only asking for more information, not making excuses, and I'm not saying you are [making excuses] - just saying what I would do if it was my dog). 

In Schutzhund, before a dog can trial for a SchH title, they have to pass a BH, wich is a basic test of Obedience and temperament. Each judge will run their BH a bit different, but there are items where you have to walk your dog through crowds, stop and have people approach you and shake hands, and so on, with no reaction from your dog. When I did the BH with Gryffon, the judge instructed the "crowd" to act like they were having a drunken arguement. I had to approach the crowd, put my dog in a down, and he instructed one of the "drunks" to turn and talk to me and pat me on the shoulder. Dog was to follow my cue and not react.

So I would say that reacting to someone just normally approaching your son is not protectiveness from a place of confidence (unless the dog sensed something "off"), but more like a bit of bravado, a bit of "just in case". And if Shadow is that worried, she may be walking around with a touch of fear. Though it sounds like continued training and socialization will help her past that.

Just my thoughts on it, nothing definitive, others may have more insight into the situation. I know my rescue in general was very friendly with strangers when I adopted her, but there were a lot of growling incidents too when people appeared in places she did not expect to see them. It was simply a case of having her socialized more, and boosting her over-all confidence. The last thing she growled at inappropriatly is "ice-people" sculptures some of my neighbours put up along the road, as a lark. Gryffon ignored them, I laughed at them, Keeta approached hackling and growling. Once she sniffed and saw it was nothing, she relaxed. But this was the first time in years she growled at something that she was unsure about.


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## martemchik

Lucy Dog you hit it right on the head, and same with Castlemaid in their explanation. I see protective as having been trained, it can't be out of control barking anytime someone comes near or just crazy barking in the yard. In Shadow's situtation I see it more like the dog might be fearful for the child and is warning you to do something. The dog doesn't completely understand the situation and is therefore reacting in that way. Again you do have to look at the body language and what not, but you can't have a dog freak out anytime someone comes near your child, just my opinion.

I have a very outgoing "social butterfly" and we're actually trying to get him to be a little more standoffish and unreactive to other people and especially other dogs. He doesn't bark or anything just wants to play with them. I think in your case you do need to socialize more and make sure your dog is comfortable with every situation. Protectiveness should only come out when they feel the danger, either through you, or a situtation which they have never been in before.


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## rashadlc

Is it possible for a GSD to be fearful and protective at the same time but not sure how to manage their emotions? Also is fear part of most dogs nature until they mature or is it something to breed out of top quality dogs?


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## CarrieJ

I was taught that unless you have told the dog to protect you it's more or less resource guarding.
Who made the first decision, you or your dog?

Reacting to weird body language and tones of voice sounds more fear based. 

*grin* Unless my dog pays my carpayment and rent and signs the checks...she can't make those decisions. I still love her to death though the BBB.


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## blehmannwa

I think that dogs are generally not the best decision makers.


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## Castlemaid

I thought this would be a great thread for the Weekly Discussion Topic. 
And to continue on with the discussion:



rashadlc said:


> Is it possible for a GSD to be fearful and protective at the same time but not sure how to manage their emotions?


I think yes, it is possible for a dog to want to be protective, but feeling a bit overwhelmed and unsure. But an experienced person can read the unsureness. The wanting to be protective and being somewhat fearful is why police dogs, Schutzhund dogs, and PPD need training and are raised differently than an average pet dog were the focus for the future working dog is on building confidence, while the focus for the average pet dog is on good manners. 

Dogs that are raised with protection in mind, are taught from an early age that they can take on the world and win every time. They are gradually brought along, with more pressure and fight from the decoy put on them so that they grow in their confidence that they can win the fight, and that is where that place of unshakable confidence comes from. There are dogs that have this naturally. When training a future protection or police dog, the ability to read the dog and know just how much pressure and stress to introduce into the training without overwhelming the dog is one of the most important skills of the trainer. Too much too soon, and the dog can't handle it, and becomes fearful and reactive. 



> Also is fear part of most dogs nature until they mature or is it something to breed out of top quality dogs?


This is where breeding for nerve strenght and temperament comes in. I think that fear in puppies is normal from an evolutionary view point, but through good breeding, it can and should be bred out of them. You see the solid litters from solid parents, puppies that are fearless and ready to take on the world, never backing away from anything, but moving forward to investigate and explore. Pups may still go through some fear stages, but they get through them and continue on with no ill effect. The GSD is SUPPOSSED to be a fearless breed, and this is what breeders should all strive for. 

Being fearless as a young dog is different than being ready to take on a protective role as a young dog. Dogs have strong social/pack oriented behaviours, and the alpha and older more senior members of the pack have the responsibility to look out for the younger, weaker members of the pack. 
A young dog _should_ defer to the alpha/senior in that regard. 

For example, I live in the boonies. One day out in the back field, my older dog (about 6 years old at the time) and my one year old GSD chased a bear into the woods. At first I didn't see what it was, my older dog was barking away, then I saw the bear (hiding behind a tree, looking out at us). While the older dog was barking at the bear, the one year old brought me his ball and was prancing around wanting to play. I recalled the dogs and we headed back to the house. In this example, the older dog had the situation under control, so the young dog was not concerned. Then I showed up, so nothing to worry about! Mom is here!!! Let's play! That would be normal _fearless_ confidence for a one year old, and completely appropriate for him to defer the barking and holding the bear at bay to the older dog. This does not mean that he is not a courageous dog, or not protective, just shows age-appropriate behaviour.
As he is getting older and more mature, I would think that in a similar situation, he would stand side-by-side with my older dog and give her support - though I surely hope there will never be another similar situation for us! 

To expand on the nature of fear in puppies, in a previous paragraph I mentioned this:

_When training a future protection or police dog, the ability to read the dog and know just how much pressure and stress to introduce into the training without overwhelming the dog is one of the most important skills of the trainer. Too much too soon, and the dog can't handle it, and becomes fearful and reactive. _

The problem with puppies that are fearful, is that from an early age, EVERYTHING they encounter is scary and traumatic, so through their normal every-day life, they are pushed into being insecure and reactive, and very difficult for the owners to try and overcome this by socilization and training. A pup like this is almost doomed to fail because it does not have the psychological ability to deal with ANY stresses, and falls apart. 

So the answer to the question about fear: it should be bred out of the dogs, not only in top-quality dogs, but out of all dogs, because a fearful puppy grows up to be a fearful adult dog, and that is nothing but a heart-ache and a liability.


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## Cschmidt88

I'm not trying to hijack the thread. But where would trust issues come into play? Would that be labeled under fearful?

I mean a dog who is confident around people, and a person can run up and grab their owner and the dog will be fine. If anything gets excited. But if the person simply approaches with more assertive body language (head on, direct eye contact.) the dog becomes evasive.

I may be describing trust wrong, I have a clear picture in my head but can't quite put words to it.


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## Lucy Dog

Cschmidt88 said:


> I'm not trying to hijack the thread. But where would trust issues come into play? Would that be labeled under fearful?
> 
> I mean a dog who is confident around people, and a person can run up and grab their owner and the dog will be fine. If anything gets excited. But if the person simply approaches with more assertive body language (head on, direct eye contact.) the dog becomes evasive.
> 
> I may be describing trust wrong, I have a clear picture in my head but can't quite put words to it.


To me, what you described in fear. There has to be a clear threat to be considered being protective.

If there's no threat, only an assertive person approaching, and your dog reacts than that's most likely fear or weak nerves related.


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## codmaster

gsdraven said:


> There's more to it than this but very simplified:
> 
> A fearful dog is reacting to a non threatening situation or thing.
> 
> A protective dog reacts to an actual threat. (this can include a perceived threat by you if you are actually scared).


 But wouldn't a fearful dog also react to a real threat?


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## codmaster

One other question - could a dog who just barks at something strange, i.e. a sudden appearence of a stranger for example and then calms down and ignores it as soon as the owner says "OK" or something like that - couldn't they just be "alerting" on the new strange thing as one would expect a pack member to do upon seeing a strange dog appear that is not part of the pack?

I.e. not 'fear" per se, just an alert.


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## NancyJ

codmaster said:


> But wouldn't a fearful dog also react to a real threat?


A fearful dog will react to a real threat if that is their only option. Their first option will be to escape. An alert is not the same as fear.


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## codmaster

jocoyn said:


> A fearful dog will react to a* real threat* if that is their only option. Their first option will be to escape. An alert is not the same as fear.


Wouldn't a fearful dog's reaction to a perceived (by them) threat be the same as to a real one? How would they know the difference? I.E. barking and lunging at a innocent stranger versus barking and lunging at a person really intending to do the owner or the dog harm?

Are you saying that the fearful dog knows the difference and would bark, etc. at the innocent person and run away (assuming that they are not on a leash of course) from the real bad person?

I can not understand how even a fearful dog would know the difference. 

And also - are you saying that a non fearful dog CAN tell the difference? That is, without a LOT of experience of course - and with a higher threshhold.


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## Cschmidt88

Lucy Dog said:


> To me, what you described in fear. There has to be a clear threat to be considered being protective.
> 
> If there's no threat, only an assertive person approaching, and your dog reacts than that's most likely fear or weak nerves related.


Yeah, I reread that after I got home. I just can't get the words out. Sorry

But how would one describe trust issues?


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## Castlemaid

How is trust an issue? Not sure I understand what you are asking?


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## NancyJ

codmaster said:


> Wouldn't a fearful dog's reaction to a perceived (by them) threat be the same as to a real one? How would they know the difference? I.E. barking and lunging at a innocent stranger versus barking and lunging at a person really intending to do the owner or the dog harm?
> 
> Are you saying that the fearful dog knows the difference and would bark, etc. at the innocent person and run away (assuming that they are not on a leash of course) from the real bad person?
> 
> I can not understand how even a fearful dog would know the difference.
> 
> And also - are you saying that a non fearful dog CAN tell the difference? That is, without a LOT of experience of course - and with a higher threshhold.


No I am saying a fearful dog may snap but will not go all the way and fight it out.If there is an out they will take it. . The problem with them is they perceive any threat as real.

Does not mean they can't do some serious damage in the process. The irony is many of these dogs people perceive as protective will back down if someone calls their bluff and fights back.

Most dogs that bark and lunge at everyone are fearful but some are just not right in the head and probably will fight and fight seriously.


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## Cschmidt88

Castlemaid said:


> How is trust an issue? Not sure I understand what you are asking?


I'm sorry I just can't word it properly...I hate dyslexia, it makes for an awkward conversation, Lol! 

Sorry to bring that up.


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## codmaster

jocoyn said:


> No I am saying a fearful dog may snap but will not go all the way and fight it out.*If there is an out they will take it. . *The problem with them is they perceive any threat as real.
> 
> Does not mean they can't do some serious damage in the process. The irony is many of these dogs people perceive as protective will *back down if someone calls their bluff and fights back.*
> 
> Most dogs that bark and lunge at everyone are fearful but *some are just not right in the head* and probably will fight and fight seriously.


I am not sure why you would think that an aggressive dog is "not right in the head". Couldbe that they just perceive a threat or that they have had a bad experience in the past. 

very true about some blustering dogs that bark will back down if challenged but some will not and it is VERY difficult for most folks to tell the difference until it may be too late.

We have such a person in our local obedience club - she likes to boast that when any unleashed dog runs at her when she is dog walking she jumps in front of her dog (a woosey standard poodle) and threatens the dog and it "ALWAYS" backs down. I tried telling her once that that may not be a good idea as there are some dogs that will not back down but will take the challenge and could do some serious harm (she is not a big person at all!). There was another idiot in a class one time that did the same thing to my friends GSD who was about 15 months old at the time. the dog wandered on a off leash recall and started in the direction of his wimpy fearful Dobe and he made a big act out of charging toward the GSD with his hand in a fist over his head and yelling. the GSD went back behind it's female owner and i guess the guy felt like a hero! I tried telling him that behavior could get him in a lot of trouble if he did it to the wrong dog but he didn't want to listen. If he had tried it to the other GSD in the class (mine!) he would have gotten either severly bitten or severly punched or both!

From what I have seen on this forum there are a few folks who feel like these two people did - they can threaten any dog away from their dogs! Not always true in all cases!


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## NancyJ

Codmaster - I did not say a dog with any agression is not right in the head but a dog that percieves danger when there is none does have a problem and that a dog that is downright agressive is not right in the head. Maybe you are right there. Some guardian dogs ARE downright agressive by nature. The GSD is not supposed to be.

Most fearful dogs will back down. Some dogs are downright agressive and will not. And you are right it is difficult to tell the difference but I still think the vast majority are the former. I try to just slide by and be prepared to fight back.


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## hunterisgreat

Just my opinions...

The vast majority of the time when a dog barks or growls at someone and it hasn't been specifically trained for it is fear-based. A dog with its tail held high is being dominate (which is a form of fear in the sense he's trying to establish that he's bigger and badder than the other dog). Fear doesn't have to mean the dog is tucked tail and peeing itself.

Fear isn't always a bad thing either. When training a PPD or police K9 you need to train with a controlled element of fear... for the dog to exhibit some defensive drive and get out of prey drive. otherwise you can never know how the dog will react when he's fearing for himself/his handler.


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## hunterisgreat

jocoyn said:


> Codmaster - I did not say a dog with any agression is not right in the head but a dog that percieves danger when there is none does have a problem and that a dog that is downright agressive is not right in the head. Maybe you are right there. Some guardian dogs ARE downright agressive by nature. The GSD is not supposed to be.
> 
> Most fearful dogs will back down. Some dogs are downright agressive and will not. And you are right it is difficult to tell the difference but I still think the vast majority are the former. I try to just slide by and be prepared to fight back.


Guardian dogs that are just down right aggressive by nature, I think, is someone taking a short cut to an actual guard dog. A dog like that could not be a PPD or street dog... too much liability.


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## codmaster

jocoyn said:


> Codmaster - I did not say a dog with any agression is not right in the head but a dog that percieves danger when there is none does have a problem and that a dog that is downright agressive is not right in the head. Maybe you are right there. Some guardian dogs ARE downright agressive by nature. The GSD is not supposed to be.
> 
> Most fearful dogs will back down. Some dogs are downright agressive and will not. And you are right it is difficult to tell the difference but I still think the vast majority are the former. I try to just slide by and be prepared to fight back.


Just out of my own curiosity - which "Guardian" dog breeds are "supposed to be agressive"? By that I assume you mean people agressive, not dog agressive, right?


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## LaRen616

Sinister showed that he would protect me.

When Sinister was 16 months old I took him for a walk at night. After our walk we were in my driveway about to go inside, when my neighbor calls us over to talk to him. So I am standing there talking to him and these 2 crackheads come walking down the alley, they got really close to us, one of them started to ask if Sin was friendly and was walking up to us before I could even answer him (I was about to say no he is not friendly, I dont need random strangers knowing he is friendly in my neighborhood), Sin starts growling, then he starts barking, this wasn't his normal bark, it was alot of barks and they were fast, spit starts coming out of his mouth and his hair went up, he's showing his teeth, he was trying to pull me and is lunging at them (they were not close enough to get bit) I couldn't believe what I was seeing! Sinister is extremely friendly, he loves everyone, even strangers. The crackheads were stunned, I yelled at them several times to keep moving. Finally they get far enough away and Sin stopped barking. That was the only time he ever acted that way. He knew they were bad people. My neighbor even made the comment that Sinister could tell they were not "friends".


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## codmaster

hunterisgreat said:


> Just my opinions...
> 
> *The vast majority of the time when a dog barks or growls at someone and it hasn't been specifically trained for it is fear-based.* A dog with its tail held high is being dominate (which is a form of fear in the sense he's trying to establish that he's bigger and badder than the other dog). Fear doesn't have to mean the dog is tucked tail and peeing itself..............


Just out of curiosity - where did you get this idea that a dog barks or growls out of fear almost all the time. What about all the times that a dog barks out of pure excitment or a simple alert action? Absolutely no fear involved there!

And now even a dominant dog is acting out of fear?

Fear of what?


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## Scleropages

So, I would say that my pup is extremely well socialized. He goes into the dog store, to the park/dog park, over to my friends' houses and plays with guests at my house (often a dozen at a time) and never barks and is always sweet. The other day I was outside and a homeless guy selling magazine subscriptions was walking door to door, through the yards. K2 sat quietly and stared at the guy. I was apprehensive because I hate talking to salesmen and I don't like people walking into my yard. K2 remained silent until the guy got within about 5 feet and he lunged and made his "big boy bark" while snapping at the guy. I pulled him back and took him inside, so everything was alright, but you're telling me that his reaction was fear?

Now, when we define fear, what do we mean here? Are we saying that as soon as the person retaliates, a dog acting out of fear will disengage? If someone grabs my wife in public I will react out of fear for her safety, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop pounding their brains out if they hit back. I understand the value of training, but I don't see how a dog that identifies something to attack will just go from fight to flight because it receives some peripheral pain.


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## gsdraven

Scleropages said:


> The other day I was outside and a homeless guy selling magazine subscriptions was walking door to door, through the yards. K2 sat quietly and stared at the guy. *I was apprehensive* because I hate talking to salesmen and I don't like people walking into my yard. K2 remained silent until the guy got within about 5 feet and he lunged and made his "big boy bark" while snapping at the guy. I pulled him back and took him inside, so everything was alright, but you're telling me that his reaction was fear?


 


gsdraven said:


> There's more to it than this but very simplified:
> 
> A fearful dog is reacting to a non threatening situation or thing.
> 
> A protective dog reacts to an actual threat. (*this can include a perceived threat by you if you are actually scared*).


Without seeing your dog in that situation, no one on a message board can say if the reaction was fear or not. How old is your dog? 

You can see by the two sections that I bolded, that IMO it is possible that your dog felt you needed protection because you were feeding to him that you were scared about the man approaching.

For the most part, your dog did what a confident dog should do, keep a calm and watchful eye until provoked. 

Personally, I don't want my dogs to go off on people that aren't actually threatening so I work on my own confidence so that I can be a good leader to my dog and they don't feel that need to take charge in every day situations.


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## Scleropages

gsdraven said:


> Without seeing your dog in that situation, no one on a message board can say if the reaction was fear or not. How old is your dog?
> 
> You can see by the two sections that I bolded, that IMO it is possible that your dog felt you needed protection because you were feeding to him that you were scared about the man approaching.
> 
> For the most part, your dog did what a confident dog should do, keep a calm and watchful eye until provoked.
> 
> Personally, I don't want my dogs to go off on people that aren't actually threatening so I work on my own confidence so that I can be a good leader to my dog and they don't feel that need to take charge in every day situations.


K2 is about 5 months old. Maybe apprehensive was the wrong word. I was on my guard in case the guy was hostile or anything.


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## LaRen616

Being that the puppy is only 5 months old, I would think that he was having a fear reaction.


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## gsdraven

Scleropages said:


> K2 is about 5 months old. Maybe apprehensive was the wrong word. I was on my guard in case the guy was hostile or anything.


Truthfully, at 5 months old, he's too young to be protective. He's just a baby with a young brain that can't really conceive threats and protection yet. I do think he was reading you though and you need to make sure that even though you were on guard, that he knows you are in control and there's nothing to worry about. At 5 months old, all people (that aren't trying to hurt him) should be the greatest thing ever. 

I would actually do more socialization and positive experiences with other people with my dog if they acted like that at 5 months old.


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## Castlemaid

If he was only 5 months old, it was definitely fear. True protectiveness comes out at maturity when the dog is around 18 to 24 months, and from a place of quiet confidence. Expecting your 5 month old to act protective is like expecting an 8 year old to protect you. Not gonna happen.  

Except that the other person may be intimidated enough by the fact that a GSD snapped at them that they will back away, not understanding protection either. But think of the psychological burden put on a dog that young (or a child that young) who feel like the parents/pack leader is too weak to protect themselves AND them, and they feel forced to take action.


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## NancyJ

This article has been around the block more than a few times
If I only read one thing about dogs it would be THIS one
It is on many many sites and I only picked this site because it has it as a handy PDF file

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements%20of%20Temperament.pdf


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## LaRen616

gsdraven said:


> Truthfully, at 5 months old, he's too young to be protective. At 5 months old, all people (that aren't trying to hurt him) should be the greatest thing ever.
> 
> *I would actually do more socialization and positive experiences with other people with my dog if they acted like that at 5 months old*.


I agree, more socialization is needed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think there is a cycle - or so it seems - that is maybe coming into play?

People who are "above average" apprehensive or fearful - of things that may happen to them - people who might break into their houses, people who might do something to them in their yards, people who might steal their cars, whatever, who purchase dogs for their visual deterrent and who activate the fear/anxiety in their dogs when these things happen (EEEK! A person! the person thinks), causing the dogs to react - EEEK! My person is scared, I should be too! - and going round and round. 

I say this as a generally neurotic person who has developed much more confidence and assertiveness after having a fear aggressive, dominant dog who I had to protect because though he was afraid, he really did think giving someone the business would be fun. 

After getting the fear aggression part taken care of, he became quite the pushy, ready to engage kind of dog, staring people down, having that Mendlebaum "It's Go Time" attitude. If I showed any kind of fear or nervousness, that dog was on and that just isn't good. So I controlled my dog by controlling myself.  Then either one of us was ready to give someone the business. :rofl: 

Unfortunately I have not been able to cap fear this w/my dog reactive dog so he's a prisoner to my emotions - working on it!


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## codmaster

From what i have seen in the last few years, some trainers and even some behaviorists seem to think that 99% of a dogs reaction to things is fear based.

One trainer even told me once that my 18mo male GSD was sniffing the ground while we were doing a down stay because "he was anxious/fearful". Actually he just likes to sniff! We changed trainers not too long after that.


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## onyx'girl

Sniffing is a calming signal.


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## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Sniffing is a calming signal.


Sometimes it may certainly be.

And sometimes it is simply sniffing because the dog like to sniff! 

Are you suggesting that my dog (or any dog) sniffs just before he pees because he wants to send calming signals? That is ridiculous! Many times he is all alone in the back yard, wonders along sniffing and then pees. Who might he be sending the calming signals to?

The whole idea of "calming signals" is very much open to interpretation as the author admits - the signals have to be looked at in light of the actual current environment.


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## hunterisgreat

codmaster said:


> Just out of curiosity - where did you get this idea that a dog barks or growls out of fear almost all the time. What about all the times that a dog barks out of pure excitment or a simple alert action? Absolutely no fear involved there!
> 
> And now even a dominant dog is acting out of fear?
> 
> Fear of what?


I should have clarified. I meant whent it's obviously not a play/prey/excitement bark. I was speaking to te classic "is he protecting me" question

Dominant dogs are trying to establish their dominance bc they view the other as a threat. Being threatened is having fear. I'm not putting a negative slant on fear, which is important to note. 

An MMA fighter has fear when he steps in the ring. If he doesn't, he is in the wrong class. That fear is what quickens the senses and sharpens the mind. The fear is justified... The other fighter intends on hurting him. That is appropriate fear


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## martemchik

I think what people aren't realizing is that fear can be a good reaction. A fearful GSD will scare away an intruder or a threat, it just won't know how to seperate the difference between friend and foe. This discussion also makes it sound a little bit like the GSD is a sissy when it reacts out of fear not protective nature. Which isn't the case at all, but I know I would feel that way.

I think a post at the beginning covered it well, a fearful dog is unpredictable, you don't know if it will back down or stand up and fight. If it fights and injures a person you have a liability on your hands, if it runs away, well you might not have the guard dog you were always hoping for.


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## gsdraven

martemchik said:


> *I think what people aren't realizing is that fear can be a good reaction*. A fearful GSD will scare away an intruder or a threat, it just won't know how to seperate the difference between friend and foe. This discussion also makes it sound a little bit like the GSD is a sissy when it reacts out of fear not protective nature. Which isn't the case at all, but I know I would feel that way.
> 
> I think a post at the beginning covered it well, *a fearful dog is unpredictable*, you don't know if it will back down or stand up and fight. If it fights and injures a person you have a liability on your hands, if it runs away, well you might not have the guard dog you were always hoping for.


martemchik, can you elaborate on how a fear reaction is a good reaction? 

As you said in the next paragraph, a fearful dog is often unpredictable which IMO is never a good thing.

While it is true they _may_ scare away an intruder, they may also scare away your Grandmom or neice coming to visit or the neighborhood kids. Hopefully the scaring isn't done with a bite in the case of the innocent people. I believe we should want our dogs to be confident in everyday non threatening interactions, not scared.


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## LaRen616

gsdraven said:


> martemchik, *can you elaborate on how a fear reaction is a good reaction? *
> 
> As you said in the next paragraph, *a fearful dog is often unpredictable which IMO is never a good thing.*
> 
> While it is true they _may_ scare away an intruder, *they may also scare away your Grandmom or neice coming to visit or the neighborhood kids*.* Hopefully the scaring isn't done with a bite in the case of the innocent people.* I believe we should want our dogs to be confident in everyday non threatening interactions, not scared.


:thumbup:


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## martemchik

It's hard to explain, but I was thinking along the lines of a break in or an intruder in your home. A fearful dog might scare them away by barking and freaking out. I can't say that the fear reaction is a good one when you're just being approached by someone as that can get dangerous really quickly. That was the idea I had, but I definately believe that an unpredictable dog is not a good thing.


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## LaRen616

martemchik said:


> It's hard to explain, but I was thinking along the lines of a break in or an intruder in your home. A fearful dog might scare them away by barking and freaking out.


Or a fearful dog will go and hide behind the sofa.


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## martemchik

I was hoping more of the best case scenario, but yeah that's always a possibility. I guess its just a situtation I don't ever hope to see my dog in, I don't care for his reaction, I'd rather not have a break in lol.


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## pets4life

doesnt protection stem from fear? defense? like the dog views something as a threat only a dog with courage will face that threat and have the courage to fight it and not hide when it is pressed by an attacker?? A dog may be scared of an attacker or have fear of it but he will have enough courage and stable mind to overcome the fear and fight. 

kinda like a military man when out to war he may fear getting killed but he combats that fear by facing it and charging/fighting anyway he has courage etc.. could be wrong but i thought that what it may/could be? 

balanced dog with lot of courage and has defensive drive = protective in face of what that dog may think is a threat? 

fearful dog nerv bag unbalaced may not be protecting he is so fearful he is charging and snapping trying to save himself from what he views can be a deadly threat (like a human with a dog phobia)

like i am sure a police dog may even feel fearful sometimes but still a good one will overcome that and still get the job done

BUT I AM NOT SURE SO ID LIKE TO KNOW IF I AM WRONG SINCE I DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH THIS AND LOVE TO LEARN!!! also but that would be my thoughts on it.


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## onyx'girl

Aggression may stem from fear, but the dog should overcome the fear with courage to fight if there is a real threat. 
Nervebags will not do that, they will retreat or do a tag type bite, but won't engage in a fight. 
I don't want my dogs to protect me, ever. I want them to be a deterrent only. Though the reason we got my first GSD was the fact that my DH was working nights and people knew I was home alone....so Stomper became my "protector".
Then when we got Onyx, my daughter was having fear issues after a teenager was murdered in our neighborhood. Clover would have let a stranger in, so DH decided to get a GSD again for the deterrent factor.
A crazy will be a crazy no matter if you have a gun or a dog, a gun is a much better weapon than a dog any day.


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## pets4life

actually the dog i would think does not even have to have stable or balance to protect for real few dogs out there may be soo aggressive all the time that they will just about bite and fight anyone these dogs will not back down if the person advances or fights them the dog will keep fighting but will even go after someone who means no threat so that would make them unbalanced 

the smallest thing may set these dogs off u touch the owner the dog will nail u bad and keep nailing u etc.. 

no one would like to own a dog like that because of the liabality but i am sure they are out there


onyx girl i dont think a gun i a better protector then a dog they dont sleep in ur room at night watching over you making sure nothing gets into your houe, they dont tell u when someone is snooping around your yard they dont walk you to your car or look after your house while your gone, they wont go out and make sure the coast is clear so u can go outside if you are scared or paranoid someone might grabe you, a dog wont turn on you like a gun will when omeone stronger than u grabs it out of your hands, a gun wont make any noise if you are attacked a lot more reasons why i dont think they are as good.

someone who has anxiety issue or is a victim of violent crime may not be bet suited for a gun if they have shakey hands or are over emotional they could get somone hurt or killed real easy.


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## pets4life

on the dog vs gun thing i am only talking about certain gsds some gsds have it in them to bite attack for real when they or their owner is under real threat these dogs will get civil real fast but most wont. I was just talking about the ones that will protect. Otherwise yeah most are a detterant which i still think is better detterant then having a gun that no one can see.


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## onyx'girl

A GSD should not be a weapon, a gun is....that is the point of my post.
The dog will alert you to get your weapon, and if you are a shaky nervebag, then no, you should not have that weapon, maybe mace would be better?


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## LaRen616

onyx'girl said:


> A GSD should not be a weapon, a gun is....that is the point of my post.
> The dog will alert you to get your weapon, *and if you are a shaky nervebag, then no, you should not have that weapon, maybe mace would be better?*


I feel like you're talking about me here. 

:laugh:


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## pets4life

id say yeah along with your dog you shsould carry maybe a stun gun or taser 

not sure about mace u might end up hurting urself and ur dogs eyes by using it


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## AuberryShortcake

> This article has been around the block more than a few times
> If I only read one thing about dogs it would be THIS one
> It is on many many sites and I only picked this site because it has it as a handy PDF file
> 
> http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/E...emperament.pdf


This was a great article, it explained so many things that I had little to no clue about...


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## rjThor

I'm no expert, but I had my first GSD when I was a young boy, he was never sent to any type of training, but he was a very obedient dog, and was a very loyal friend to me to the end, I had cousins that lived next door, and they had a couple of dogs that were kept tied up, they once got loose, and chased my lil brother and I, we had to jump on my uncle's boat, while the dogs were barking n trying to jump up in the boat. My GSD saw this jumped over the fence and got into a real vicious fight with them, Rocky was his name, he comenced to woop on both of their dogs. Once the dogs realized they had no chance, and took of to the front of their house my GSD waited till my brother and I climbed off the boat and jumped over the fence, back to our house, and then Rocky jumped the fence and walked beside us. I'm telling this story, because when my grandfather bought me my first GSD, he knew he came from a litter of K9 pups, so for me, I always thought It was in his genes. That was a long time ago, but from doing my research with my son's puppy I'm banking that based on his genes he will be the same with my son. Thor is 18 weeks, and so far so good with the bond he has with my son. A GSD will alway be my first and only choice for me and my family.


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## pets4life

the whole fear vs protective thing is not that simple as people make it you can take a dog that has no fear and make it be protective with a threatening eye stare very easy anyy good decoy can do it people can often do this eye stare to a dog by mistake

there are actions people can make that a fearless dog can see as a threat that is not a threat

dogs arent human they do not see the same things as threats as we do a strong dog can often view a human as a threat get protective when that person isnt 

my personal dog doesnt view much as a threat though takes her a while to see something as one but whe she does oh boy


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## selzer

Well my big bad four year old thought my green muck bucket was a threat this morning. The nasty wind was blowing it and it was moving, and her hair was up and she backed up, went forward to check it out again, and then it moved again and then she backed up again. 

My 21 month old puppy trotted right up to it and sniffed it and then went about her business. 

Is it fear in the first dog because of the reaction to an inanimate object?

Is it intelligence to be wary of something that has been stationary in the yard for four years and suddenly is moving about? 

Is it courage to move forward and check it out even though it should not be moving?

Is it courage or lack of intelligence to run right up to it and sniff it?

Bad wicked muck bucket!











Nasty wicked muck bucket!!!


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## Witz

I have read so many threads and stories about this issue. I am still of the opinion that the vast majority of untrained dogs will engage in a fight only as long as they have to and then they will fly like the wind. I have unfortunately witnessed some dog fights in which a very weak nerve dog defended themselves due to the other dog not stopping their attack. The moment the weak nerve dog got the chance, it ran. 
A trained dog may engage in a fight because it's confidence and Temperament gives it the drive. Their temperament/nerve/intelligence has been nutured in a very positive way, so they can reason and react by their own decision making or on command. 

There are only a few dogs whose temperament is total defense and looks for a fight as they just don't have a shred of fear. Those dogs are just not suited for much more then being confinement watch dogs who are set off on their own to guard a specific area.

Only very seasoned handlers and appropriately trained dogs will have the full scope protection qualities in a bad situation. I think most owners should be happy with having a dog that will cause a wrongdoer to have second thoughts. If someone finds themselves in one of those bad situations and your dog steps up and between you and the threat, well you are lucky and have a well bred dog. I personally would like to think that my dogs of the past and the new pup I have just gotten is one of those, but in no way will I place that expectation on them. I just would him to look like he could do some damage.


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## pets4life

also what selzer said a dog that will avoid a chain saw while it is on fearful? 


a dog that will touch a chainsaw while it is on and get its face shredded? 


a lot of it has to do with the dogs common sense a dog with solid nerves should have some survival skills/brain gives it a sense of caution.


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## carmspack

what if it were a blowing tarp or an umbrella. I would say the dog got spooked , went into avoidance , so is not as strong nerved .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## DougGeneration

I must say that the first few posts improved my understanding of these two terms, as I've thought of them quite inaccurately before. Now I know for sure!


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## JJR

Lucia mentions in the BH before Schutzhund about the rowdy crowd and the drunk patting you on the shoulder, etc. Very interesting. I will be getting a male pup in a couple months and am seriously thinking of Schutzhund. It seems to me that a dog NOT barking up a storm like 99% of most dogs do when someone strange approaches their leader is something that can't be taught? I can't imagine what training one would do with a pup to train them NOT to bark when strangers in a rowdy crowd are approaching and touching? Any advice? Thanks, John.


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## Chicagocanine

Castlemaid said:


> And as others said, the threat has to be real. A dog that barks at every passerby or random people approaching a vehicule, or every noise is reacting out of fear, because those are daily occurances that have never posed a threat.


Why do you say that? A dog may be protective but misunderstand a threat... For example a dog trained to alert bark and protect, whose owners live in a rural area but move the city where the houses are much closer together and the sidewalk is very close to the house may bark because they believe the people are trespassing on the property.


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## trudy

just my 2 cents, my dogs' older brother goes to group homes of adult men with my daughter, she works there, he goes everywhere, he is totally steady. He has zero aggression with these men who may make sudden aggressive type movements when they are asked to do what they don't want to do. Sin has never done anything. 

One night going home from work, someone came out the supposed to be locked bike garage at their appt complex, charging toward Rebecca, Sin roared once and lunged forward to the end of his leash. The man stopped turned and ran the other way off the property. Sin immediately settled back down when the man ran. Rebecca hadn't had time to act scared until it was over, but she does feel the man was a threat, and she was in potential danger. Was Sin afraid?? I don't think so, startled maybe, but she said he had been more alert and staring when she got him from the car, I believe that was protection.

And he has what I believe is excellent temperment.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think it's important to post this 'read' that nancy posted again.
I think it can explain alot regarding temperament/behaviors
http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/E...emperament.pdf


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## trudy

WEll Diane I read your article, I do NOT agree with all of it although most of it I do. I assume you said for em to read it after my telling about my daughter's dog, but I still maintain he has proper temperment. Thsi happened at 5 yrs of age, he has never before or since shown any type of behavior like this. He doesn't growl/lunge/hackle and is a good enough disposition to go to work with different abled individuals. 

I do not think Von Stefanitz intended for all dogs to pass the schutzhund tests to be able to be bred, lets all be honest he devised the tests after he started breeding. This dog is not being used for breeding, he is an AM/CAN showlines the same as mine and has done everything she has trained him for, sadly she doesn't trial him, he would have his HT, at least the first few agility titles, and probably his CDX and TD. 

Temperments can be proper from many lines and I think we would have the breed originator turning over in his grave if he heard we are all to protect our GS instead of expecting them to show some real, not pretend guarding instincts.


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## danbibby

I watch the tail. In the case of another dog, if the tails are wagging while they're barking...it's an introduction.

If the back hairs bush, the tails not wagging and there's growling and teeth display....it's time to go.


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## horsegirl

Is this good nerve? or what would you all call this? I was on a walk , dusk . off leash, alone one eve.
Got into an argument with another dog walker, My dogs were ignoring his, his dog was agressivly in my dogs face. When he started speaking to me in an threatening tone, Louie my 3 1/2 yr old took notice. Louie just sat down and calmly was watching the encounter. The man finally started to walk away, after about 50- 100 ft he suddenly turned around and started walk towards me again speaking threatenly. Louie jogged towards him , stopped about 20 ft from him, and just stood there. I told the man (not know if my statement was true) that my dog wold protect me and that he should stop walking towards me. the man stopped for a few seconds then started in again walking towards me and shouting. Every step he took Louie stepped closer to him, no growling , or barking just on high alert. I repeated my self to this man as I was getting concerned, I had no idea what Louie would do, The man finally noticed that Louie was on full alert to him, at this point the man decided that my dog truly may protect me, turned around at stalked off. Louie watched him until I recalled him , running back to me all tail waggy and happy. Needless to say I was proud of my boy. At the same time I was made aware of the loyalty of my boy, what I have in a dog and am more aware of my surroundings now.
So is that an example of nerve or something else? I posted this on another thread, I believe it was protective, he sure seemed confident


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## Castlemaid

I think your dog acted very appropriately considering the situation. I would be proud too!


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## horsegirl

Castlemaid said:


> I think your dog acted very appropriately considering the situation. I would be proud too!


thanks , hope you were posting to me  , I just knew he acted correctly , I think if we all really are in tune with ourselves and what is happening in any situation , we know in our hearts if it is appropriate behavior on our dogs part.


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## Castlemaid

horsegirl said:


> thanks , hope you were posting to me  , I just knew he acted correctly , I think if we all really are in tune with ourselves and what is happening in any situation , we know in our hearts if it is appropriate behavior on our dogs part.


Yes, I was posting for you.  A lot of people feel that their dog going bonkers at the end of a leash when people approach is being protective - but that is complete fear! A protective dog acts calm and in control, and does not over-react. It comes from a place of confidence, not fear.


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## horsegirl

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, I was posting for you.  A lot of people feel that their dog going bonkers at the end of a leash when people approach is being protective - but that is complete fear! A protective dog acts calm and in control, and does not over-react. It comes from a place of confidence, not fear.


100% true statement , I agree , that is the nuts and bolts of it. I am somewhat dumbfounded that people with breeds like gsd's do not know the difference. No one sat me down and said listen , if your dog acts like "xxx" its strong nerve and confidence, if it acts like"xxoo" its bad nerves and fear. I read my dog on a daily basis, he knows how I am feeling and I can pretty much tell how he is. Is it just not natural for some people??


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Is it courage or lack of intelligence to run right up to it and sniff it?


Good question! Dogs will sometimes do really dumb things if they don't have any natural caution; but we humans don't seem to want a lot of natural caution in our GSDs. We want them to face a threat with no fear, caution, or tenativeness... of course, sport is highly ritualized and the dogs are trained to the point where they know they won't get hurt. But Police dogs may very well be hurt or killed in the line of duty.

But we all like our dogs to be brave, fearless, and willing to put their lives on the line for us. We as humans value this courage, breed for it, and encourage it... but is it really good for the dogs themselves?

A prime example of this would be the fighting Pit Bull. These dogs are bred to have the highest level of fearlessness and willingness to fight, even if it means they will be seriously injured or killed. This "gameness" is highly valued and sought after. A "game" dog will not quit a fight even when he is losing, or in fact even dying. Basically, in biological terms, the dog has no natural sense of self-preservation. In the wild, this would spell their demise as they would attack any living creature without fear, even a pack of wolves or a bear. This of course is suicide for the dog.

It's an interesting philosphical discussion.

There are also some breeds where there is a fine balance between courage and self-preservation. I'm thinking of breeds used for hunting wild boar; these "bay dogs" must have the courage to find the boar and hold it at bay without attacking it, and will avoid being attacked themselves. This self-preservation is valued, as wild boars are extremely dangerous and good bay dogs are expensive. The hunters will then bring in a "catch dog", often a Pit Bull, to attack and hold the boar, as these catch dogs have no regard for self-preservation.


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## Castlemaid

Interesting info, Freestep! Never thought about the balance between fearlesness and self-preservation. Something new to think about . . .


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## codmaster

Freestep said:


> Good question! Dogs will sometimes do really dumb things if they don't have any natural caution; but we humans don't seem to want a lot of natural caution in our GSDs. We want them to face a threat with no fear, caution, or tenativeness... of course, sport is highly ritualized and the dogs are trained to the point where they know they won't get hurt. But Police dogs may very well be hurt or killed in the line of duty.
> 
> But we all like our dogs to be brave, fearless, and willing to put their lives on the line for us. We as humans value this courage, breed for it, and encourage it... but is it really good for the dogs themselves?
> 
> A prime example of this would be the fighting Pit Bull. These dogs are bred to have the highest level of fearlessness and willingness to fight, even if it means they will be seriously injured or killed. This "gameness" is highly valued and sought after. A "game" dog will not quit a fight even when he is losing, or in fact even dying. Basically, in biological terms, the dog has no natural sense of self-preservation. In the wild, this would spell their demise as they would attack any living creature without fear, even a pack of wolves or a bear. This of course is suicide for the dog.
> 
> It's an interesting philosphical discussion.
> 
> There are also some breeds where there is a fine balance between courage and self-preservation. I'm thinking of breeds used for hunting wild boar; these "bay dogs" must have the courage to find the boar and hold it at bay without attacking it, and will avoid being attacked themselves. This self-preservation is valued, as wild boars are extremely dangerous and good bay dogs are expensive. The hunters will then bring in a "catch dog", often a Pit Bull, to attack and hold the boar, as these catch dogs have no regard for self-preservation.


Very interesting discussion topic and obviously based on some good thoughts about species preservation.

Also should have a line about "thresholds" if we talk about when a dog should react to a threat. 

That is, there maybe some threats that demand a fast reaction with no "THOUGHT" possible - i.e. what would you expect a chase dog to do if the boar runs at the hunter (I don't know much about hunting dogs but i would certainly expect the dog to jump on the boar to save the hunter, a momma dog to fight the bear coming after her puppies, and esp. the K9 to sacrifice itself to save the cop from the bad guy).


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## MaggieRoseLee

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs

Great article about aggressions..

aw:


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## Marc

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Canine Aggression Frequently Asked Questions | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> 
> Great article about aggressions..
> 
> aw:


Very great article. I always think of aggression as a symptom, not the problem. Dont treat the symptom, treat the problem. Any aggression, in my opinion is fear based, either they are afraid of something happening to them, or they are afraid of something happening to something that belongs to them (owners, toys food, ect) these problems can be treated if you find out what your dog is scared about, and then build up the confidence in your dog that there is no threat to what he desires.

I also believe there is aggression caused by psychological problems and mental disabilities, that would need medication or possibly euthanisation to fix.


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## codmaster

Marc said:


> Very great article. I always think of aggression as a symptom, not the problem. Dont treat the symptom, treat the problem. *Any aggression, in my opinion is fear based, *either they are afraid of something happening to them, or they are afraid of something happening to something that belongs to them (owners, toys food, ect) these problems can be treated if you find out what your dog is scared about, and then build up the confidence in your dog that there is no threat to what he desires.
> 
> *I also believe there is aggression caused by psychological problems and mental disabilities,* that would need medication or possibly euthanisation to fix.


*"All aggression is fear based"* - that sounds like a couple of instructors at my local OB club!

Perhaps I misunderstood your post - you said that all aggression is fear based BUT then you also say that aggression can also be based on "psychological problems and mental disabilities".

So what is aggression really based on, in your opinion?

*HUH?*


*How about agression based on the natural normal drives of dogs?*

*I.e. Prey drive, pack drive, etc.*

*For me, it is really hard to think that my dog is acting out of "Fear" when he is at the end of his leash trying as hard as he can to go FORWARD at the bad guy there. *


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## Catu

If you want to think about, it is true, as much is true for every motivation in the world. It's not to be a good Christian, it's fear to go to ****, it's not love, it is fear to be alone, it's fear something can happen to your children, your spouse, your friends. You don't fight to be a better person, it's fear not to fulfill your dreams, fear to disappoint your parents, fear to fail.

And don't even let me start on patriotism...

All aggression is based on fear? It may not be false, but is an over, over, over simplification of the subject.


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## codmaster

Catu said:


> If you want to think about, it is true, as much is true for every motivation in the world. It's not to be a good Christian, it's fear to go to ****, it's not love, it is fear to be alone, it's fear something can happen to your children, your spouse, your friends. You don't fight to be a better person, it's fear not to fulfill your dreams, fear to disappoint your parents, fear to fail.
> 
> And don't even let me start on patriotism...
> 
> All aggression is based on fear? It may not be false, but is an over, over, over simplification of the subject.


 
*Some people (and DOGS) fight because they like to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Castlemaid

And I wonder what the motivation for liking to fight is? I know in my rescue, it is insecurity - she wants to fight other dogs because she wants to be top dog, and she is insecure about her position. 

Gryffon is happy to let others be top dog, but he will fight for real in protection training - his motivation is defense - there is a real and present threat, and he fights to defend himself and over come the threat. One could say that he is afraid of being overpowered and loosing, so there is an element of fear, but there is also an element of confidence and inner strength, because he feels himself capable of winning and overpowering.


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## KristiM

Catu said:


> All aggression is based on fear? It may not be false, but is an over, over, over simplification of the subject.


Totally agree!

And what about dogs that find it satisfying to dominate? I have a dog that finds it very self rewarding to dominate. I imagine that there are dogs that find the act of aggression to be self rewarding. Kinda like how eating chocolate feels rewarding to me 

I used to box and for me fighting was a rush that made me feel good. Are dogs capable of that same rush?


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## codmaster

Castlemaid said:


> And I wonder what the motivation for liking to fight is? I know in my rescue, it is insecurity - she wants to fight other dogs because she wants to be top dog, and she is insecure about her position.
> 
> Gryffon is happy to let others be top dog, but he will fight for real in protection training - *his motivation is defense* - there is a real and present threat, and he fights to defend himself and over come the threat. One could say that he is afraid of being overpowered and loosing, so there is an element of fear, but there is also an element of confidence and inner strength, because he feels himself capable of winning and overpowering.


Wonder how a human can know what the motivation of an animal is?

Is the "protection" training Sch or real personal protection, or K9 type work? That would make a REAL difference in what the dog thinks of what his motivation is. Vast majority of ScH training that I have seen or talked to knowledgable folks about is done in "prey" drive (tug of war game) - not much fear there either.

An insecure dog doesn't "like" to fight, just feels like they have no choice (the well known "fight or flight" response to some fear).

Regarding "like to fight" - some dogs do, just like some people. Some dogs like to track, others to fetch, etc.

Not every dog reaction/behavior is due to a dog fearing something! Sometimes they react because they like to do something.


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## Castlemaid

codmaster said:


> Wonder how a human can know what the motivation of an animal is?
> 
> Is the "protection" training Sch or real personal protection, or K9 type work? That would make a REAL difference in what the dog thinks of what his motivation is. Vast majority of ScH training that I have seen or talked to knowledgable folks about is done in "prey" drive (tug of war game) - not much fear there either.


In Gryffon's case, he has been worked and tested by k9 trainers with experience in selecting and training police dogs, and pushed to test the limits of what he can take. So yes, it was real defense work on a bite suite and the hidden sleeve, and not tuggy prey drive work. 




> Not every dog reaction/behavior is due to a dog fearing something! Sometimes they react because they like to do something.


True too!! Some dogs just find a behaviour self-rewarding and will then repeat it given similar situations.


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## Freestep

Castlemaid said:


> And I wonder what the motivation for liking to fight is?


With GSDs, I think fighting with a helper or criminal, fight drive, is a form of advanced play drive. We see young puppies wrestle, chase, and "fight" each other, and it appears they are enjoying themselves. Perhaps the desire to fight is the grown-up version of that. It is FUN for the dog, especially if he knows (or thinks) he will win and won't get hurt. Some dogs fight harder if they do get hurt, I think at that point there is an element of defense (fear) and anger to the fight, and the desire to overwhelm the opponent gets kicked up a notch. Once a dog perceives that his survival is on the line, he may get an extra dose of adrenaline. Of course, at a certain point there is the possibility that he may turn and run for his life if that is an option, because GSDs do still retain survival instincts.

With dogs that truly seem to enjoy fighting and do not care if they get hurt or killed, like a game Pit Bull, it might be seen as a compulsion, a self-rewarding behavior with none of that bothersome "survival" concern. I don't think fear plays any part in it. I don't know if many people have actually seen two game Pits matched in a ring, I have only seen videos, but there is no "threat" display. No growling, no snarling, they may bark with excitement, but there is no hackling, no posturing, no nothing. The dogs are wagging their tails, eager to engage, and going after each other like they are having the time of their lives, despite the fact that they are being horribly maimed in the process. It's disturbing and fascinating at the same time, from a behavioral point of view. What is the motivation? It's not fear, could it simply be play to them? It would be interesting if you could somehow study the brain of a fighting dog while he's in the fight. How is their brain different than that of a normal dog? What hormones are flooding the brain, what parts of the brain are lighting up?

And by the same token, if it were possible to wire up a GSD's brain while he is fighting the helper, what would we find?


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## Sharbel

Jax's Mom said:


> A fearful dog is protecting himself, while the protective dog is protecting you?


Indeed. Aggression is fear. The fearless dog is not aggressive. My problem though is that my dog is so calm that he often reminds me of a lamb dressed as a wolf. Fearful looking, huge in built, but yet calm and so well tempered to the extent that I am afraid nobody will ever hesitate entering his yard. But make no mistake. Those you dared to enter alone his space have had a very nasty surprise. The calmed and well tempered dog converts immediately into a guard, he groans and he barks just once or twice at the most but if the intruder continues towards the fenced yard or the front door we still do not know what will be coming next. His barks are countable. But only if and where it maters. Whenever we let visitors in with him around he checks them up , he allows them in but he blocks them from going to any of the private rooms alone.


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## doggiedad

that's funny. i've seen my dog's protective side. he barked
at his reflection in the window. :laugh:



Good_Karma said:


> Okay, I understand now Shadow's Mum.
> 
> Here's my relatively uninformed opinion on protectiveness versus fear...
> 
> >>>> Actually, I don't even think I can dare comment since I have never seen either of my dogs act in a way I felt was protective. I don't know what protectiveness looks like, to be completely honest.<<<<


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## Lobobear44

I admit it is hard not certainly clear if the dog is protecting someone or is just fear. Like when I Dante a GS he has attacked a small dog but I'm trying to find out why. Also the other day I was playing with Riley and Dante, Riley started to play too rough on me and Dante stopped Riley. I think Dante is protective of me. Again, sometimes hard to tell.


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## Lobobear44

O yeah Dante is fearless not afraid of anything!


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## Harry and Lola

Castlemaid said:


> puppies that are fearless and ready to take on the world, never backing away from anything, but moving forward to investigate and explore. Pups may still go through some fear stages, but they get through them and continue on with no ill effect. The GSD is SUPPOSSED to be a fearless breed, and this is what breeders should all strive for.


Castlemaid, in your opinion do you think a 2 and 1/2 year old GSD male who as a puppy displayed all of the above characteristics and then changed, possibly due to EPI (diagnosed recently and has become fearful over past 6 to 10 months) can go back to their original temperament? 

And if so, would he go back to original temperament naturally (on his own) or will be require confidence building and training from me?


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## Castlemaid

I really can't answer that question - there has been quite a few posts on the forum in the past like yours, where a previously confident, not afraid of anything dog, changed and started showing fearful and insecure behaviour. I've never seen it in a dog myself, but I'm sure it can happen. There would be too many variable regarding what was the root cause of the change in behaviour to know what the long-term outcome will be. 

My guess (and just a guess), is that these changes in behaviour are rooted in health issues, where the ability to receive and process environmental stimuli has been altered, and now the dog lives in a confusing world that makes no sense to them anymore. Whether the dog would go back to being confident and outgoing when the health issues clear up, again, might depend on a number of things. His core temperament and nerve strength perhaps, or if the fearful behaviour is now ingrained behaviour - perhaps they don't trust their own senses anymore, and thus life in fear that their world is not reliable or predictable and they are full of self doubt. 

I do believe that a medical condition can cause some deep personality and temperament changes in a dog - whether the the dog can get back to what it was before, I really don't know.


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## Harry and Lola

Thanks for answering. Yes I also believe medical conditions play a part in temperament changes to a dog. I'm hoping his short episode of fear and aggression is something he can get over and go back to being a happy, confident, dominant boy. Your 'trust' comments were interesting, when I think about it, he really does need to learn to trust himself again. I also have to admit, I need to trust him again. Easier said than done, however I have been exposing him to various dogs (in dog parks - hate them but they have their uses) maybe about once a week and I muzzle him (this is for my comfort). First time he has ever been muzzled, but he accepts it as though it is not there and it really has been helping both of us to trust again. He seems much more calmer and is learning to greet other dogs properly.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

I don't think anyone has really nailed it so far... so I'll give my 2 cents.

Being "Protective", in relation to how dog the majority of dog owners use it, is not a specific behaviour, or character trait that our dogs embody, rather it is a *completely subjective* term that we apply to our dogs - having a slightly different meaning to every individual who uses it;

"my dog barks at the postman, he's being protective"

"my dog chases foxes out of our backyward, she's so protective"

"I have a little yorky, that growls when you try to take his toy away, he's so cute when he's protective"

"defence of handler, in schutzhund, demonstrates a dog being protective of its handler"

One word is used throughout all these situations, yet each situation is different, and these dogs are reacting ways that arise from different drives - territorial defence, prey drive, resource guarding, learned behaviour/genuine pack defence

There are as many definitions of what we classify as protectiveness as there are shades of blue. But *objectively* speaking, to be protective is to "protect" something - to safeguard it against harm. That object could potentially be anything, from the dog itself, to a person, or an inanimate object. 

Now to be fearful, is to fear something, to be "afraid" - for fear of harm to oneself.

The confusion arises from the fact that, dogs are often afraid of things that we normally would not consider it acceptable to traditionally be afraid of. Fear of heights, fast moving traffic, assault, someone aggressively yelling at you -these are all deemed acceptable, valid environmental stimuli that evoke a fear response. But things like garbage bins, vacuum cleaners, postmen - things that dogs are commonly afraid of - aren't considered acceptable.

I wanted to comment because I didn't think anyone was getting the point across strong enough - being fearful and being protective can be (depending on your definition) the same thing. 

A dog cannot possibly be protective *without perceiving* something as threatening, whether that be a helper in schutzhund, making eye contact and cracking his whip or some jerk of an owner who takes away his dogs food bowl before he was done eating. The dog is afraid of losing something - a valuable resource, its life etc. So a protective behaviour begins with a fear response, all dogs experience some degree of fear and this is the basis of a dogs defence drive. In training a high level competition sport dog or police k9, this fear is significantly diminished as dominance and defence drives overlap > fight drive develops and like one poster in here said - you get something vaguely analogous to an "advanced play drive".

So, in essence, fearfulness and protectiveness are coming from the *same place.*


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## redandgold

I assume if she's trying to run away from something, it's fear. If she is actively planting herself between me and a 6'8" 300 lb guy it is clearly not fear.


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## DD126

*Fearful dog!*

Thank you for your comment. It explains what's going on with my dog. Your description of the dog that shows fear is exactly what happens with my dog. She's a 13 month old female, and used to be very friendly with people and other dogs, but in the past 4 months or so I have not been able to relax while walking her downtown. Most of the times she's intent in sniffing around, more so than the passerbys, yet if she gets distracted from the smells, her behavior is exactly what you described. She has barked and jumped on people, lunging on the leash (which btw, to this day she has not yet accepted). She has been hyper from day one, and she has made a lot of progress. Used to bark at every little noise, day and night, now she only does when she actually hears people at the door, or deer, etc...
A couple of weeks ago, under a trainer suggestion, I started using the prong collar (which I've been so reluctant in trying it). Well, now on our walks, she reacts and jump on me, and nips at me. To make matters worse, now she does the same thing when I try to pet her, and a couple of times it escalated to the point that I had to log-roll her... (another bad situation I wish could have been avoided because I'm sure it didn't help her trust issues!). I had some difficulty bonding with her when I got her as a puppy. She never let me pet her and she always kept her distance from me at home. Eventually we took down some barriers, but I can still sense a big trust issue with her.
Any ideas or suggestions? 





Castlemaid said:


> Protectiveness comes from a place of complete calm and complete confidence. The dog will assess the situation, stay watchfull, and give warning growls. The look on their face often reads "don't try anything, buddy, I'm on top of it!"
> 
> Dogs lunging to the end of the leash, barking widely, hackling, looking around widely, switching their gaze from the person or thing to something else and back, and so on, are showing fear.
> 
> In some cases, the difference is subtle because a fearful dog may be so good at the bravado, trying to act confident and sure in order to try and convince the threat that they mean it (though they are bluffing), that even an experienced person may have difficulty in seeing the difference.
> 
> And as others said, the threat has to be real. A dog that barks at every passerby or random people approaching a vehicule, or every noise is reacting out of fear, because those are daily occurances that have never posed a threat.


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## FORRUGER

I'm not replying to the above, but just wanted to ask opinions on 'protective' behavior vs. shear aggressive behavior. My friend just told me, quite proudly, that her female gsd (who's barely over a year of age) charged off her couch and attacked her relative who walked in the front door unannounced for a visit. Guessing the dog has met him before, but according to my friend he is quite a big man and dislikes dogs....which she seems to feel is part of the reason he was attacked. SInce 6 mos of age the dog has shown unruly behavior....including getting 'kicked out' of pet training at a local pet store for uncontrollable barking and lunging at other dogs. I invited her to bring her pup to my basic obedience classes when she was 9 mos old as I just expected it was being an obnoxious ill mannered pup getting out of control. This is the lady's first gsd puppy (working line) and she had no experience with raising head strong pups , . Needless to say, obnoxious was an understatement. The 'pup' was clearly showing fierce aggression... barking, snarling and lunging at the end of the leash... wanting to get ahold of me. I wasn't sure if it was out of fear, or strait outright unadulterated aggression... and wasn't going to find out...So I suggested she take the dog back to her breeder/trainer for evaluation and she did. They gave her one lesson on basic obedience using a prong collar on her....she was supposed to take her back for continued work.,, which never happened.

I just think a year old pup shouldn't be displaying this kind of behavior ... and wonder if a child had walked thru the door unannounced if it would have done the same thing. Or was the 'pup' justified for attacking company walking in the door unannounced?? In general the pup has growled at people (friends) coming up to his 'mom' in the house in the past, and has also aggressively grabbed one other person by the arm it was near. I'm not in approval of this behavior in the least and wondered if others consider it 'ok'...


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## boomer11

definitely fear and definitely not ok. a protective dog only watches people and doesnt bark at everything that moves. a protective dog is ok with 99% of the people it comes in contact with and will only bark and lunge and maybe bite if they feel the threat is real. my dog has barked his deep bark when startled but he's never lunged at anyone.

a fearful dog will huff and puff and bark and lunge and maybe bite at everything that its unsure about. if this behavior isnt corrected then the dog thinks that this is how i get rid of the danger. the dog thinks its ok to bite and lunge and bark because it works! it has nothing to do with working line. sounds like the dog needs lots of leadership and training. if your friend is proud of this behavior it'll just be a matter of time before she gets sued.


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## FORRUGER

Thank you for your reply and assessment based on the circumstances. I just mentioned that it was out of working lines as it has siblings trained and actively working on police forces so it's out of dogs with good strong drives. I did mention the liability issue to her... and even told her about a person in my neighborhood who adopted an adult GSD with a bad attitude that ultimately ended up being ordered to be euthanisized after getting loose and attacking people in the area... 

But I will try to pass on to her sound suggestions from anyone willing to offer them... it's not acceptable behavior to me especially out of a dog that technically is still a 'pup' at 13 mos of age.... just wanted other opinions/suggestions. thanks!


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## GEORGEKY

Greetings, I'm relatively new to this forum, but posted last year when our GSD male contacted lymphoma. Dino is gone, but I have a question regarding our 5 year old female adopted last fall through the GSD rescue organization. Bella is wonderful in the house, responds to commands, but is very protective if anyone comes to the door- until they come inside. We have no issue with this behavior, but need to do something about the same behavior or worse when confronted with another dog when on leash during a walk. Lots of barking, snarling, and an apparent readiness to fight.

Obviously, we are far past puppy training, or even knowing her background. The foster people said she was very well-behaved with other dogs in the house but she has really become hard to handle around other dogs. I'm looking for any training or conditioning suggestions.

Thanks,

George Schweikle
Lexington, KY


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## Banshee5

Very interesting opinions and I myself cannot comment on what is right or wrong behaviour. I do know my dog does not like dogs coming up to me if they are loose and will come up to chase them off. People he has no bother with,unless they approach the house then he barks and barks but never attacks.
Hes greta out walking but again if we meet a dog he barks and pulls on his lead. He never had other dogs around growing up as people were afraid of him


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## GSD Shepherdess

We use the Don Sullivan training method. Since we began using this method, we have had great success in bonding, training, and helping others.


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## Dalko43

Castlemaid said:


> Protectiveness comes from a place of complete calm and complete confidence. The dog will assess the situation, stay watchfull, and give warning growls. The look on their face often reads "don't try anything, buddy, I'm on top of it!"
> 
> Dogs lunging to the end of the leash, barking widely, hackling, looking around widely, switching their gaze from the person or thing to something else and back, and so on, are showing fear.
> 
> In some cases, the difference is subtle because a fearful dog may be so good at the bravado, trying to act confident and sure in order to try and convince the threat that they mean it (though they are bluffing), that even an experienced person may have difficulty in seeing the difference.
> 
> And as others said, the threat has to be real. A dog that barks at every passerby or random people approaching a vehicule, or every noise is reacting out of fear, because those are daily occurances that have never posed a threat.


Some good points. Though I will say I have seen some GSD's bark/act aggressively towards random strangers (without provocation), and yet were not displaying any indication of fear/stress.

I don't think we can diagnose all GSD's as either "fearful" or "protective" when they exhibit aggressive behaviors. I have dealt with some that are just looking for a fight, others that have a strong pack mentality and will keep strangers away from their perceived pack members (owners), and there are many other reasons for an aggressive outburst. It's best to analyze these incidents on a case-by-case basis.


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## onyx'girl

If we read the body language, there are always subtle clues to let us know the dogs emotional state....and most often random reactive aggression is fear based. A dog that is secure and confident does not go looking for trouble. 
My female doesn't always show stress or fear when she reacts, she is forward and stealth, but it is a display of emotions due to the fact that she is unsure, so takes the proactive stance. Her tail is high, her head is up, she doesn't hackle, but I know her well enough to see she needs to feel like the 'big dog' when she is insecure. 
My male who is always confident and secure, will watch and discern before ever reacting.


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## Dalko43

onyx'girl said:


> If we read the body language, there are always subtle clues to let us know the dogs emotional state....and most often random reactive aggression is fear based. *A dog that is secure and confident does not go looking for trouble. *


I agree with most of what you have said. And though it's hard to statistically prove why most dog-bite incidents occur (fear, confusion, protectiveness) I can buy off on that statement of 'most random reactive aggression is fear based.'

However that last part in bold raises a few questions on my part. I have first-hand experience with a secure/confident male GSD, who does not go looking for trouble or try to chase/attack strangers passing by...but has a bite incident and several aggressive incidents with people who tried to approach him for a pet. He is curious about everything, gets along fine with dogs that want to play, and is perfectly at ease on walks just as he is at his home.

I just don't think all GSD aggression (or dog aggression in general) falls within that black and white category of being either fear-driven or protective-driven.


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## Stonevintage

So what would you make of this? My pup has no interest in other dogs. It's the dogs owner she wants to get to for a pet and a hello. She is almost 11 months old and her beef with other dogs is if they are standing between her and their owners. She will stand an inch away from a dogs face with her back legs braced and bark and bark. If this garners no reaction, she will try to go around them to get to the owner.


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## onyx'girl

Dalko43 said:


> I agree with most of what you have said. And though it's hard to statistically prove why most dog-bite incidents occur (fear, confusion, protectiveness) I can buy off on that statement of 'most random reactive aggression is fear based.'
> 
> However that last part in bold raises a few questions on my part. I have first-hand experience with a secure/confident male GSD, who does not go looking for trouble or try to chase/attack strangers passing by...but has a bite incident and several aggressive incidents with people who tried to approach him for a pet. He is curious about everything, gets along fine with dogs that want to play, and is perfectly at ease on walks just as he is at his home.
> 
> I just don't think all GSD aggression (or dog aggression in general) falls within that black and white category of being either fear-driven or protective-driven.


If he is immature mentally, he may not be correctly assessing situations....and it is up to his handler to help him succeed. GSD's carry aggression, it is in their breed standard...many breeders are trying to breed it out, or not breed pedigree matches carefully enough to keep that natural aggression controlled/ temperament isn't stable. Young dogs need to be managed regardless. My male was very suspicious when he was immature, but his high threshold helped him and he was never placed in situations where he would be failed.


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## NINADOG

onyx'girl said:


> If he is immature mentally, he may not be correctly assessing situations....and it is up to his handler to help him succeed. GSD's carry aggression, it is in their breed standard...many breeders are trying to breed it out, or not breed pedigree matches carefully enough to keep that natural aggression controlled/ temperament isn't stable. Young dogs need to be managed regardless. My male was very suspicious when he was immature, but his high threshold helped him and he was never placed in situations where he would be failed.


Just wondering what would be considered good management for a dog such as this that would help him to succeed?? The dog is young, 14mos, and unpredictable on his reactivity to people approaching and at times charges and attempts to bite people. His owner just feels he is just being protective of him as so many newbie owners do and only gives soft verbal and collar corrections the dog no longer takes much notice of. . If you can get past the initial approach you can take this dog from his owner and hold him with the owner out of site and he will interact safely with you. He is also dog aggressive in the same manner. Just wondering as he did leap to bite me and made contact with his mouth on my arm. I just felt the dog should have received a strong correction. In my own opinion his behavior is fear based without a doubt and it seems to be getting more frequent and severe.​


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## onyx'girl

NINADOG said:


> Just wondering what would be considered good management for a dog such as this that would help him to succeed?? *The dog is young, 14mos, and unpredictable on his reactivity to people approaching and at times charges and attempts to bite people. His owner just feels he is just being protective of him as so many newbie owners do and only gives soft verbal and collar corrections the dog no longer takes much notice of. .* If you can get past the initial approach you can take this dog from his owner and hold him with the owner out of site and he will interact safely with you. He is also dog aggressive in the same manner. Just wondering as he did leap to bite me and made contact with his mouth on my arm. I just felt the dog should have received a strong correction. In my own opinion his behavior is fear based without a doubt and it seems to be getting more frequent and severe.​


This type dog does need strong leadership, and should not be put in situations (at this age) where he is set up to fail.(Owner should not allow people to approach or the dog to react, but be proactive and keep the dog engaged, focused on the handler) Owner should be getting with a trainer that _knows this breed_ and work on handling skils.
He needs to learn boundaries, and gain confidence. Tracking is something that may help, it keeps the dog under threshold, teaches decision making as it builds confidence and the handler can bond more, learn more about the dog when doing something as simple as a track. 
I would not assume he'll ever get over the dog aggression, most often that is something that just has to be managed.


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## Jennperry

we have the "fear" issue with our Sura. When she was 7mo old a guy tried to break into a house 2 blocks away. He was chased by the homeowner (he was on a bike the home owner in a car) he dumped his bike in my front yard trying to get away and Sura was outback playing and ran into her. I was folding laundry hubby was at work and I heard guys yelling in my yard and she was viciously growing. She did what she naturally should do and took the guy down pulling and tearing his pants. by the time I ran out back I had my (legally owned and CCL) gun and shouted everyone to stop I was armed and they did but the bad guy kicked her hard. this was 3 days before we had her fixed.

ANYWAY.....She is now 1 year 5months old and it's taken this long to even get her to walk with us and not be fearful. Whenever someone comes to the house she freaks out...Vicious....We have signs posted for our electric company and told them NEVER to open our fence without us home. We do this because we know what she can do and do not want her hurt or someone else. She has slipped pass me a couple times and my mailman knows to take a stand not to run but his sub didn't and he ran that day and I was horrified. She was chasing him off but had he fallen or she bit him it would be MY FAULT period.

She has come a long way we take her to stores with us and she is better not 100% but we work every day with her. SO NO this was not funny it wasn't a game we have to be responsible owners because they have a bad rap for a very good reason.

Sura is a female 95lbs pure lean mean muscle. She will protect us to the death we know it but I won't ever allow someone else to be hurt because I am not doing the right thing to keep people who visit us safe.


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## Castlemaid

I'm sorry you had this happen to a 7 month - way too young to deal with a real attack. I'm not surprised that there has been long-term issues you are still working with. 

Glad to hear she is getting better. Glad to hear that you understand the stage of mental development she was at and how this traumatized her. Sounds like she'll be okay though with your help and time and confidence building.


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## onyx'girl

Sura is a GSD...she has had to deal with more than what her maturity level at the time could handle. But she is, a GSD.
She will need management and help from her handlers to deal with what she went through, but I bet she'll never be a liability with the knowledge you now have. 
I think some dogs are failed because the owners either expect too much or squash a dogs confidence. They don't know or understand their dogs lines and misread their motives.
Keep up your good instincts!


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## Lagrangedanny

Castlemaid said:


> How old is Shadow? This does sound like it could be protectiveness, but over-reacted a bit. Hard to tell without actually seeing her body language.
> 
> I would not accept this behaviour as "normal" or excuse it as being protective (I know you are only asking for more information, not making excuses, and I'm not saying you are [making excuses] - just saying what I would do if it was my dog).
> 
> In Schutzhund, before a dog can trial for a SchH title, they have to pass a BH, wich is a basic test of Obedience and temperament. Each judge will run their BH a bit different, but there are items where you have to walk your dog through crowds, stop and have people approach you and shake hands, and so on, with no reaction from your dog. When I did the BH with Gryffon, the judge instructed the "crowd" to act like they were having a drunken arguement. I had to approach the crowd, put my dog in a down, and he instructed one of the "drunks" to turn and talk to me and pat me on the shoulder. Dog was to follow my cue and not react.
> 
> So I would say that reacting to someone just normally approaching your son is not protectiveness from a place of confidence (unless the dog sensed something "off"), but more like a bit of bravado, a bit of "just in case". And if Shadow is that worried, she may be walking around with a touch of fear. Though it sounds like continued training and socialization will help her past that.
> 
> Just my thoughts on it, nothing definitive, others may have more insight into the situation. I know my rescue in general was very friendly with strangers when I adopted her, but there were a lot of growling incidents too when people appeared in places she did not expect to see them. It was simply a case of having her socialized more, and boosting her over-all confidence. The last thing she growled at inappropriatly is "ice-people" sculptures some of my neighbours put up along the road, as a lark. Gryffon ignored them, I laughed at them, Keeta approached hackling and growling. Once she sniffed and saw it was nothing, she relaxed. But this was the first time in years she growled at something that she was unsure about.


How would you recommend building and encouraging that behaviour to take your lead with thresholds, i.e dog outside out back, person in home, or barks at roommate randomly from outside while im inside in lounge and roommate goes past

Like, both me and roomate have a fake chat then go out and settle him? He loves my roomate, but sometimes does what you're describing with the door as a threshold


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## David Winners

Lagrangedanny said:


> How would you recommend building and encouraging that behaviour to take your lead with thresholds, i.e dog outside out back, person in home, or barks at roommate randomly from outside while im inside in lounge and roommate goes past
> 
> Like, both me and roomate have a fake chat then go out and settle him? He loves my roomate, but sometimes does what you're describing with the door as a threshold


How old is the dog please?


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## dogma13

Another thread started








Reactivity within home, strangers and roommates


Just turned 2 years old male gsd, desexed Gsd (kiba) has reactivity issues within the home, for example - he's outside, barks through fly screen back door at roomate walking to his room adjacent to back door (only sometimes and only if im home) - hackles will go up at back door and growl...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Lagrangedanny

David Winners said:


> How old is the dog please?


Bang on 2 years


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## Lagrangedanny

dogma13 said:


> Another thread started
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> Reactivity within home, strangers and roommates
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> Just turned 2 years old male gsd, desexed Gsd (kiba) has reactivity issues within the home, for example - he's outside, barks through fly screen back door at roomate walking to his room adjacent to back door (only sometimes and only if im home) - hackles will go up at back door and growl...
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> www.germanshepherds.com


Yeah, been reading all the others for advice as well


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## K9WolfAlpha

Just MO and it's not a long post. If a dog is reactive by lunging forward and barking it likely is bravado/fear or was trained to behave that way. If the dog stands in front of its people and stands alert or has a low warning growl I think that is a confident dog waiting to see what develops.


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## Jenny720

My male is protective and not a nuisance. I feel impulsiveness is a sign of insecurity I like it when dogs can access a situation and you can actually see there minds think once they have fully matured. To have the ability to have different speeds and react accordingly to different situations is a necessary trait. We had a worker in the yard once the dogs knew meeting he was not a threat. They understood that I was outside all was okay. A Good clear brain is what will keep me bragging about my dogs all day long. The other day we took dogs in trail walks and a bite to eat they forgot my daughters Chips in chipotle and said they would bring them out. We were sitting in truck in parking windows open about3 inches for the dogs in the back. The guy comes out wearing a mask hands me my chips and compliments my dogs he is talking to them through the window as they are just watching him. With they the guy slips his hand in the window and is petting Max who is just smelling his hand letting this strange dude let him. I said not a work told him a good boy and sang praises and gave him many chiptole chips. If the guy was menacing or up to know good it would of been a different story.


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## wfr3

Cschmidt88 said:


> I'm not trying to hijack the thread. But where would trust issues come into play? Would that be labeled under fearful?
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> I mean a dog who is confident around people, and a person can run up and grab their owner and the dog will be fine. If anything gets excited. But if the person simply approaches with more assertive body language (head on, direct eye contact.) the dog becomes evasive.
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> I may be describing trust wrong, I have a clear picture in my head but can't quite put words to it.


Just an observation from a lurker. My Czech boy has been doing protection training since a pup. If someone came up to me and grabbed me, I would need to physically restrain the dog. He won't bark or raise hackles. He will simply go. Which is why having a protective dog requires constant vigilance.


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## CEMC

Our GSD is more aggressive than any dog we've ever had (and we've had quite a few) so he has inspired me to read as much as I can find on the subject. 

It appears that most opinions consider aggression triggered by fear to be a bad thing however there is another take on the subject that I find very interesting. A very successful dog trainer I follow on You Tube believes that fear is necessary for a dog to be protective because _protection is the direct result of an aggressive reaction to a fearful situation. _

Nature instills the fight or flight instinct in all creatures as a defense reaction to fear. Therefore a completely fearless cannot be expected to protect because it will not on its own identify any situation as dangerous. A dog that experiences fear and flees instead of standing their ground can also not be expected to be protective. Therefore this trainer concludes that the protective dog experiences fear and as result of that fear it reacts aggressively towards the source. 

I understand that an overly fearful dog poses problems but a reasonable degree of fear and aggression are necessary in a protection dog. 

I would be very interested in reading what others think of this.


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## David Winners

Yes, fear is a part of defensive behavior. It is the reaction to the perceived threat that is important.


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## Bearshandler

CEMC said:


> Our GSD is more aggressive than any dog we've ever had (and we've had quite a few) so he has inspired me to read as much as I can find on the subject.
> 
> It appears that most opinions consider aggression triggered by fear to be a bad thing however there is another take on the subject that I find very interesting. A very successful dog trainer I follow on You Tube believes that fear is necessary for a dog to be protective because _protection is the direct result of an aggressive reaction to a fearful situation. _
> 
> Nature instills the fight or flight instinct in all creatures as a defense reaction to fear. Therefore a completely fearless cannot be expected to protect because it will not on its own identify any situation as dangerous. A dog that experiences fear and flees instead of standing their ground can also not be expected to be protective. Therefore this trainer concludes that the protective dog experiences fear and as result of that fear it reacts aggressively towards the source.
> 
> I understand that an overly fearful dog poses problems but a reasonable degree of fear and aggression are necessary in a protection dog.
> 
> I would be very interested in reading what others think of this.


I agree for the most part. There are other motivators to bite and attack however. Take territorial aggression and social aggression. These aren’t necessarily driven by fear.


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