# Not expected attack on family member



## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Good day, i am devastated and lost... need some advice. I own 2 gsd, one of them is long hair in tact male 1.5 years old. He is obedience trained, we went to two schools. I work with him everyday, exercise etc. healthy dog. However he has agression towards dogs and strangers. He used to attack my yorkie but now they are fine, even yorkie bites him and hes off running. Last night family came over, he saw my stepdad before (he got in a fight with his gsd about a year ago), at first he barked, i corrected him. After few min he was fine running around, took the treat from guys hand, was waging his tail... fast forward 6 hours later my dog went for a nap by the front door. I didnt notice that stepdad was kneeling down by him and petting (he said he just wanted to be friends and didnt see any uncomfortable signs from the dog), next thing i hear dog growling, i run and see tons of blood. He jumped without warning and got his wrist. I grabbed the dog to remove him from situation , my husband tried to grab him too but he bit my husband too (i believe out of confusion). We ended up in emergency with 4 stiches. Few incidents happened before when trainer came close and tried to take his leash. Other time, another trainer after 3rd class he just started going at him. No one was injured. They told me get e-collar and start freaking using it. U kidding? I believe there must be introduction. Anyway... my husband wants to give dog away since he is unpredictable god forbid it was a kid or someones face. Or stranger, i would be in jail and dog would be put down. I dont know what to do anymore... how do i know what triggered him? He loves kids NOW, how do i know he wont change his mind in a month?! I found another school k9 police where they do evaluation but maybe anyone had similar dog? Would neutering help a little? (Probably not...) if people walking by no one is sticking hand out or talking to him or standing in front of him he doesnt pay attention at all. I socialized him a lot, took him to stores, village fairs so on. I’m afraid something is gonna happen again. Now if someone comes dog will be in crate or i need to get muzzle. Any advice? Please dont judge because i correct my dog and correction is firm.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Get a muzzle and use it. Dog needs to be crated when company is over and muzzled in public. You need to find a trainer.
We built my big guy a dog run and he stayed in it when company is over.
And please keep your Yorkie safe.


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Get a muzzle and use it. Dog needs to be crated when company is over and muzzled in public. You need to find a trainer.
> We built my big guy a dog run and he stayed in it when company is over.
> And please keep your Yorkie safe.


I agree.. he was outside 90% of the time. But i dont want to live in fear..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You can not rehome a dog like that. It's irresponsible. What if you did and then he bit a child? Crate, muzzle and management OR euthanizing him are your options. Rehoming is absolutely NOT an option.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is young. It sounds like it has been a rocky road. First it got in a fight with the step dad's dog, and barked, you said, no, and then they were running and playing? How long before? It was tired and napping? Someone is kneeling down next to a napping dog? That's weird. Ok. My dogs are excited when people are over and don't lay down and go to sleep. If they were to go to sleep with someone in the house, like when I have my sister's kids over night, then the moment someone approaches, they are awake. No one can kneel down next to a napping dog in my house, because the dog is no longer napping before someone is close enough to kneel down. 

There is a saying, let sleeping dogs lie. If you have a dog that is so tired, or sleeps so soundly, to get into a position that puts the dog at a total disadvantage, that is the down position for dogs is generally harder to teach because down is the position that they are most vulnerable. So the dog goes over to the door and lies down and goes to sleep because the dog has had enough. And then some non-family member comes over while the dog is sleeping and kneels down over the dog, and gets bit because they are totally stupid, well. 

The thing is, when you own a dog that will bite, you need to be more careful. You need to see that your dog is getting worn out/tired, and you need to put the dog in a crate, preferably in the bedroom, and then shut the door. Then the rule is that no one goes in that room, the dog is sleeping. If the dog was startled out of sleep with a stranger kneeling over him, the dog might bite. The dog has met your step dad before. So? He might have met the guy cutting a tree in your back yard or mowing the lawn, but if he woke up and either of those dudes are kneeling over him, maybe we understand why the dog is biting. 

Maybe if the dog is more mature, been in the family longer, and has been through parties or holidays where non-pack members walk around in and outside, and play/interact with the dogs, maybe the dog makes a better decision. 

Darn! we are so fascinated by the breed that can do so much, it can herd sheep, but none of us are out there herding sheep. It is protective and trainable, enough to be a police dog. But we do not put it through protection training, we do not build that super-sonic bond that comes from working with your dog to achieve a goal, so that the dog knows to attack when we tell them to attack and to leave off when we tell them to stop. We expect a dog to know that Step Dad is Step Dad, while rodents, predators, and bad guys can and should be attacked.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I had a GSD that was not good with strangers getting in her face. This can be threatening to a dog that's insecure, and doesn't know the person very well. I think this is what happened with your dog, and this was a fear bite.

I also saw this dog is outside 90% of the time. If you want to build a good, strong bond with your dog DO NOT leave it outside 90% of the time!

I would get professional help with this dog from a trainer knowledgeable about the breed. You need to work with this dog, bond with it, and figure out what went wrong. Without being able to see the dog, it's difficult to say exactly, but many dogs WILL bite out of fear if they are wakened suddenly. Even when awake, having someone hover over them when they are lying down can cause anxiety and provoke a bite.


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

selzer said:


> The dog is young. It sounds like it has been a rocky road. First it got in a fight with the step dad's dog, and barked, you said, no, and then they were running and playing? How long before? It was tired and napping? Someone is kneeling down next to a napping dog? That's weird. Ok. My dogs are excited when people are over and don't lay down and go to sleep. If they were to go to sleep with someone in the house, like when I have my sister's kids over night, then the moment someone approaches, they are awake. No one can kneel down next to a napping dog in my house, because the dog is no longer napping before someone is close enough to kneel down.
> 
> There is a saying, let sleeping dogs lie. If you have a dog that is so tired, or sleeps so soundly, to get into a position that puts the dog at a total disadvantage, that is the down position for dogs is generally harder to teach because down is the position that they are most vulnerable. So the dog goes over to the door and lies down and goes to sleep because the dog has had enough. And then some non-family member comes over while the dog is sleeping and kneels down over the dog, and gets bit because they are totally stupid, well.
> 
> ...


You are 100% right. Thats my fault, my dog never bit anyone before and i wasnt ready for it to happen. What happened with stepdad’s dog, his dog was following my dog everywhere he went, so he had enough and attacked. I broke up a fight with water hose. True, i should not expect my dog to make a right decision who to bite or not. I will call k9 school to do evaluation on him and we will go from there. He is a sweet dog in a family, in our home. Never showed any agression towards us. But i do train him. This time we need help


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> You can not rehome a dog like that. It's irresponsible. What if you did and then he bit a child? Crate, muzzle and management OR euthanizing him are your options. Rehoming is absolutely NOT an option.


I am not rehoming him. We have crate, muzzle but i wasnt prepared for him to snap. Obviously we need good gsd trainer. I set up an evaluation at police k9 school and we will go from there.


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

I 


Sunsilver said:


> I had a GSD that was not good with strangers getting in her face. This can be threatening to a dog that's insecure, and doesn't know the person very well. I think this is what happened with your dog, and this was a fear bite.
> 
> I also saw this dog is outside 90% of the time. If you want to build a good, strong bond with your dog DO NOT leave it outside 90% of the time!
> 
> I would get professional help with this dog from a trainer knowledgeable about the breed. You need to work with this dog, bond with it, and figure out what went wrong. Without being able to see the dog, it's difficult to say exactly, but many dogs WILL bite out of fear if they are wakened suddenly. Even when awake, having someone hover over them when they are lying down can cause anxiety and provoke a bite.


i agree, was my fault that i didnt tell the guy to back off from the dog. We will get some serious training to solve this issue as much as possible, now i know what he is capable of


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Edisimke said:


> I am not rehoming him. We have crate, muzzle but i wasnt prepared for him to snap. Obviously we need good gsd trainer. I set up an evaluation at police k9 school and we will go from there.


You do need a good trainer but training will not overcome genetics. Please make sure the trainer is balanced. IT can't be all cookies and it can't be all correction. You really need to accept that this dog will have to be managed with stellar obedience his entire life and probably isolated from strangers. I've lived with people aggressive dogs and dog aggressive dogs. It's not easy and you have to have rules that you follow ALWAYS. Good luck! This takes dedication but if you are prepared it's doable as long as he's not aggressive to anyone living in the home.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

First of all, random people need to ask permission before they pet. But you can't control them. 2nd and more importantly, do not let anyone pet your dog. If they reach out with their hand to touch your dog, tell them no. You're taking a huge risk that your dog will bite. 3rd, you said your step father has a GSD. Then he should've known better. Your husband got bit as a result of your step father doing something stupid. 4, if you have guests in the house, ask them not to touch/pet the dog. Let him be. If you have children in the house, crate the dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tc68 said:


> First of all, random people need to ask permission before they pet. But you can't control them. 2nd and more importantly, do not let anyone pet your dog. If they reach out with their hand to touch your dog, tell them no. You're taking a huge risk that your dog will bite. 3rd, you said your step father has a GSD. Then he should've known better. Your husband got bit as a result of your step father doing something stupid. 4, if you have guests in the house, ask them not to touch/pet the dog. Let him be. If you have children in the house, crate the dog.


I mean...plenty of shepherds are not gonna send multiple people to the hospital just because a family member petted them while they were asleep or lying down. 

I don't think that's an appropriate response from a normal dog. 

I forget how well this person thought he knew the dog ahead of time but it wasn't like a total stranger woke him up screaming brandishing a stick. It was someone the dog knew trying to pet it. That does not warrant the dog hauling off and biting everyone for real.

I totally agree my first thought reading the original post was please don't rehome this dog. If you can't keep him and keep others safe then just put him down


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

tc68 said:


> First of all, random people need to ask permission before they pet. But you can't control them. 2nd and more importantly, do not let anyone pet your dog. If they reach out with their hand to touch your dog, tell them no. You're taking a huge risk that your dog will bite. 3rd, you said your step father has a GSD. Then he should've known better. Your husband got bit as a result of your step father doing something stupid. 4, if you have guests in the house, ask them not to touch/pet the dog. Let him be. If you have children in the house, crate the dog.


Agree... he loves all family’s children but they do not bug the dog or play with him so he is not bothered. He comes licks the face with submissive body language and leaves. But i do understand that will watch him more than i did. I do not let anyone pet my dog in public people get upset its stupid, i just say my dog is in training thats that...


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I mean...plenty of shepherds are not gonna send multiple people to the hospital just because a family member petted them while they were asleep or lying down.
> 
> I don't think that's an appropriate response from a normal dog.
> 
> ...


I wont rehome him. I dont want to give up my dog, i realized how dangerous it could get. I should have read the signs when dog was barking at him 5 hours earlier. It seems like my dog gave him permission to stay and be around but didnt give him permission to get in his face. Yes, normal behaved dog would just walk away, well my dog didnt. And i wish i could turn the time back...


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> You do need a good trainer but training will not overcome genetics. Please make sure the trainer is balanced. IT can't be all cookies and it can't be all correction. You really need to accept that this dog will have to be managed with stellar obedience his entire life and probably isolated from strangers. I've lived with people aggressive dogs and dog aggressive dogs. It's not easy and you have to have rules that you follow ALWAYS. Good luck! This takes dedication but if you are prepared it's doable as long as he's not aggressive to anyone living in the home.


Thank You... we went to 2 schools he passed all obedience but that doesnt mean hes not gonna bite. He never did and that changed. Other school as you mentioned was all about just walking around and correction so third class he got frustrated with angry trainer, growled at him. This time we gonna drive over an hour to dog police academy they said they will evaluate and see if we can kick fear agression out of him. Maybe we will succeed maybe we wont... i wish he wasnt like that but i want to give him another chance


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I mean...plenty of shepherds are not gonna send multiple people to the hospital just because a family member petted them while they were asleep or lying down.
> 
> I don't think that's an appropriate response from a normal dog.
> 
> ...


True, but I certainly wouldn't go up to a strange dog and reach over it and wake it out of slumber to pet it. Maybe a small ankle biter. But certainly not a powerful breed like a GSD. Would you? If you would, you're a much braver person than me. If you asked me to go to my friend's house to do that exact same thing to his Rottie or my other friend's Doberman, I would say to you, "are you crazy?" (Actually the Doberman is really friendly...but you get what I mean.) Btw, decades ago, my cousin had a cocker spaniel, and that was one dog I wouldn't do this with. He was high strung and that dog didn't like strangers. He would've bitten me if I tried to pet it while it slept. In fact he did bite me for other reasons.

As far as if it's an appropriate response or not for a normal dog? (I'm assuming you mean a dog that has no issues when you say "normal" dog.) I don't know. Maybe you're right. Or maybe it is what a dog would do, particularly with strangers. Lying on its side or sleeping is when a dog is vulnerable. Let's say you're on a plane, and you wake up from a nap to find a stranger touching you. What would you do? I would jump up, push (or punch) him, and yell, "wtf are you doing? Get your hands off of me." I think I'm normal and that would be a normal response.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Edisimke said:


> Thank You... we went to 2 schools he passed all obedience but that doesnt mean hes not gonna bite. He never did and that changed. Other school as you mentioned was all about just walking around and correction so third class he got frustrated with angry trainer, growled at him. This time we gonna drive over an hour to dog police academy they said they will evaluate and see if we can kick fear agression out of him. Maybe we will succeed maybe we wont... i wish he wasnt like that but i want to give him another chance


You can not "kick fear aggression" out of a dog. You can only manage it. What does that even mean?? 

And this doesn't even sound like fear aggression. This bite didn't come without warnings. You had several incidences of aggression with trainers in your original post. The problem here is, knowing he had improper aggression, he wasn't managed correctly and that falls on the humans.


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## January (Sep 15, 2019)

This level and pattern of aggression would not be tolerated and I would be considering euthanasia, personally. It just takes a moment of letting your attention slip or so, and would not be worth the risk to me. I know you love him and this must be an incredibly painful and stressful situation. But I could not live with myself if another attack occurred that heaven forbid had a worse outcome, especially if he turned on one of my children. The level of reaction to being pet while lying down is inexcusable. I think we get in danger of “humanizing” dogs and explaining away their behaviour until things go way too far. This dog is an animal with a history of aggression and therefore is a huge liability.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is a lot to be said of managing the dog. We, the humans. have to be disciplined. So much so, that managing the dog becomes second nature: before we open the door to step dad, we put the dog in a crate in and close the door. We are always aware of strangers approaching our dog, and we take action before the dog does and before the stranger does. It becomes second nature, so much so, that the dog relaxes in the knowledge that you are in charge, to the point that no one but you knows what the dog is capable of. It is hard in the beginning, but it becomes second nature.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

January said:


> This level and pattern of aggression would not be tolerated and I would be considering euthanasia, personally. It just takes a moment of letting your attention slip or so, and would not be worth the risk to me. I know you love him and this must be an incredibly painful and stressful situation. But I could not live with myself if another attack occurred that heaven forbid had a worse outcome, especially if he turned on one of my children. The level of reaction to being pet while lying down is inexcusable. I think we get in danger of “humanizing” dogs and explaining away their behaviour until things go way too far. This dog is an animal with a history of aggression and therefore is a huge liability.


The dog is an animal. And, we can "humanize" the dog both ways. You are thinking that we are considering the dog being a human that doesn't like people bothering them when they eat or when they sleep. I think that it is just as likely or more likely that we forget that the dog is an animal, a predator, and it is most vulnerable when it is sleeping, for an animal to react to a strange person bending over it when it is asleep is not "humanizing" the dog. 

I think dogs are far more dangerous when their owners think their six year old "puppy" would never hurt a flea. It may be anthropomorphizing dogs when we feel hurt that the dog bit someone. Like the dog, in reverence of being owned by ME, they should never have bitten anyone. A dog is a dog. They all have a line that if you cross it, they will bite. They have teeth. They can bite. 

As for euthanasia for this incident, sigh. I am usually a bit quicker than most to consider that end. In this situation, I'm not there yet. The OP had the dog to two schools. What does that mean? Does that mean the dog went to classes for 6-8 weeks each? Does that mean the dog went to a canine-fun day where a few obedience moves were demonstrated and during the course of an hour or so, each dog and owner had an opportunity to try it. I don't know. We are talking about a dog that is outside 90% of the time. So, really, we have a dog that is a wild animal, a dog that spends most of its time relying on itself. Being inside with a bunch of strangers was probably overwhelming and exhausting, and when the dog did go lay down, the strangers didn't stop. So a dog without much of a bond (training, communication, attachment with the human, created by training and time, living together and understanding each other's body language), that is exhausted and probably overwhelmed, bites when startled out of sleep. No. At this point, if the answer is euthanasia, the failure on the part of the humans is extreme. I think the humans can probably redeem the situation, maybe not to the extent that the dog is friendly to all humans inside and outside of the family home, but a working relationship with the first part management, and a huge part creating that bond through training/building a relationship. I don't like to think of a pup of 18 months as being irredeemable.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

selzer said:


> The dog is an animal. And, we can "humanize" the dog both ways. You are thinking that we are considering the dog being a human that doesn't like people bothering them when they eat or when they sleep. I think that it is just as likely or more likely that we forget that the dog is an animal, a predator, and it is most vulnerable when it is sleeping, for an animal to react to a strange person bending over it when it is asleep is not "humanizing" the dog.
> 
> I think dogs are far more dangerous when their owners think their six year old "puppy" would never hurt a flea. It may be anthropomorphizing dogs when we feel hurt that the dog bit someone. Like the dog, in reverence of being owned by ME, they should never have bitten anyone. A dog is a dog. They all have a line that if you cross it, they will bite. They have teeth. They can bite.
> 
> As for euthanasia for this incident, sigh. I am usually a bit quicker than most to consider that end. In this situation, I'm not there yet. The OP had the dog to two schools. What does that mean? Does that mean the dog went to classes for 6-8 weeks each? Does that mean the dog went to a canine-fun day where a few obedience moves were demonstrated and during the course of an hour or so, each dog and owner had an opportunity to try it. I don't know. We are talking about a dog that is outside 90% of the time. So, really, we have a dog that is a wild animal, a dog that spends most of its time relying on itself. Being inside with a bunch of strangers was probably overwhelming and exhausting, and when the dog did go lay down, the strangers didn't stop. So a dog without much of a bond (training, communication, attachment with the human, created by training and time, living together and understanding each other's body language), that is exhausted and probably overwhelmed, bites when startled out of sleep. No. At this point, if the answer is euthanasia, the failure on the part of the humans is extreme. I think the humans can probably redeem the situation, maybe not to the extent that the dog is friendly to all humans inside and outside of the family home, but a working relationship with the first part management, and a huge part creating that bond through training/building a relationship. I don't like to think of a pup of 18 months as being irredeemable.


Couldn't have said it better. She sounds committed and maybe she'll do what is right, in other words, put the time and effort in to keep everyone safe and the dog managed. So put away the pitchforks and let's give the woman a chance to "right the ship." Let's also hope that the husband comes around, gets on board, and pitches in instead of being a hindrance because doing it alone with be much harder for the OP. Remember, many of us in here have raised "problem" dogs. If I gave up on my resource guarder last year...well, we can only imagine where my dog would be now.


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> You can not "kick fear aggression" out of a dog. You can only manage it. What does that even mean??
> 
> And this doesn't even sound like fear aggression. This bite didn't come without warnings. You had several incidences of aggression with trainers in your original post. The problem here is, knowing he had improper aggression, he wasn't managed correctly and that falls on the humans.


Several trainers called it fear agression when dog is not confident and makes drastic decision himself. Because he doesnt feel like he has owner thats alpha and he does not have to take matters “in his own teeth”. Especially when the dog is barking and moving back not forward to attack. It does fall on me. By kicking out fear agression i meant make the dog more comfortable in situations he is not comfortable. Cure the fear situations that no one will do any harm to him. He was always fine walking around people as long as no one paid attention, didnt go psycho mode on dogs who passed unless people stopped and wanted my dog to become friends with their dog. I THINK (i might be wrong), dog goes crazy when he feels threat in his own territory/space. No excuse of course. I didnt take signs too seriously


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

I wi


tc68 said:


> Couldn't have said it better. She sounds committed and maybe she'll do what is right, in other words, put the time and effort in to keep everyone safe and the dog managed. So put away the pitchforks and let's give the woman a chance to "right the ship." Let's also hope that the husband comes around, gets on board, and pitches in instead of being a hindrance because doing it alone with be much harder for the OP. Remember, many of us in here have raised "problem" dogs. If I gave up on my resource guarder last year...well, we can only imagine where my dog would be now.


I will do as much as possible to work with him. I wish it was easy... but i talked with my husband who is hesitant and said lets not run away from the problem yet...


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I re-read my copy of Excel-erated Learning every year and am re-reading it now. The author dicusses working with fear aggression by teaching the dog to walk away (avoid) a situation rather than advance toward it. I've found this to be successful- and it's something to think about working on. In the meantime, this dog sounds like he'd be quite easy to manage. Just don't allow him to be loose with strangers. Pretty simple stuff but it needs to happen every time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> There is a lot to be said of managing the dog. We, the humans. have to be disciplined. So much so, that managing the dog becomes second nature: before we open the door to step dad, we put the dog in a crate in and close the door. We are always aware of strangers approaching our dog, and we take action before the dog does and before the stranger does. It becomes second nature, so much so, that the dog relaxes in the knowledge that you are in charge, to the point that no one but you knows what the dog is capable of. It is hard in the beginning, but it becomes second nature.


This is how you handle an aggressive dog. You can be successful. Most working dog handlers live their lives in this manner. It takes diligence, particularly at first, but it will become second nature. I used to equate walking around a crowded area with Fama, my military dog, to having a loaded pistol in your hand with no control over the trigger. Constant situational awareness quickly became a habit.

It is no small amount of work, but if it's worth it to keep the dog, always maintaining the safety of everyone around the dog must come first.


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## Edisimke (Feb 9, 2019)

Muskeg said:


> I re-read my copy of Excel-erated Learning every year and am re-reading it now. The author dicusses working with fear aggression by teaching the dog to walk away (avoid) a situation rather than advance toward it. I've found this to be successful- and it's something to think about working on. In the meantime, this dog sounds like he'd be quite easy to manage. Just don't allow him to be loose with strangers. Pretty simple stuff but it needs to happen every time.


Thats what i am hoping for! For him to walk away... i dont need him to be friends with everyone, i want him to tolerate at least... what author are you talking about?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> This is how you handle an aggressive dog. You can be successful. Most working dog handlers live their lives in this manner. It takes diligence, particularly at first, but it will become second nature. I used to equate walking around a crowded area with Fama, my military dog, to having a loaded pistol in your hand with no control over the trigger. Constant situational awareness quickly became a habit.
> 
> It is no small amount of work, but if it's worth it to keep the dog, always maintaining the safety of everyone around the dog must come first.


Very well said Dave.

OP, a lot of people disagree with me but I think a tool to keep in mind is a halti. I have yet to find a tool that gives you more control over where a dog's head is. Of course, always use it with a back up collar and leash. As Dave said, your priority is the safety of other people. 



Muskeg said:


> I re-read my copy of Excel-erated Learning every year and am re-reading it now. The author dicusses working with fear aggression by teaching the dog to walk away (avoid) a situation rather than advance toward it. I've found this to be successful- and it's something to think about working on. In the meantime, this dog sounds like he'd be quite easy to manage. Just don't allow him to be loose with strangers. Pretty simple stuff but it needs to happen every time.


Isn't this similar to BAT where you give the dog plenty of leash to explore his environment and let the dog choose when to walk away?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Edisimke said:


> Thats what i am hoping for! For him to walk away... i dont need him to be friends with everyone, i want him to tolerate at least... what author are you talking about?


Exactly  That comes with obedience and situational awareness as David described. My take with both Jax and Banshee was they didn't need to like the dog/person but they had to respect their right to breathe and do as I said.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm sorry but it was not the dog's fault. He should've been either under your control or in a crate and your relatives shouldn't have been getting in his space and petting him. He probably wasn't well socialized or it's just his genetics. But you need to be responsible for where he is when you have company and what your company does with your dog. I hope things work out.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

So the dog is not 100% sound of temperament or character....he has had incidents of aggression or fear aggression....I agree with everyone that rehoming him is irresponsible. Either work with him and train him or put him to sleep humanely. He should not be passed off to anyone else. It sounds as if he may be a bit fearful or nervy in that he attacked when he was approached while sleeping.

Management is your key....crate and do not allow visitors access randomly....work on training, especially a place command where the dog has a spot to feel safe. I am not sure that your resources for trainers are very good from your descriptions....manhandling this dog or beating him up is not going to help his temperament...I do not subscribe to purely positive methods, but to a more clear cut positive and negative reinforcement. Perhaps some videos by Michael Ellis, Dave Kroyer, Ivan Balabanov might help you understand training methods. 

I do not think it sounds so bad as to euthanize this dog - and I am a person who would recommend it in a situation where the dog was a danger or severely damaged. I just think you need to find the right type of training protocals, and often, police training is NOT going to be very modern or thinking training.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I lived with a hard, aggressive dog for 13years. I agree, the management becomes second nature. I trained, daily. His obedience was solid. But I never let my guard down. He was crated or in his run whenever people were around. Run had a lock, dog room to. A realtor showed up without appointment and he destroyed a crate, someone tried to break in and he destroyed another. I was very aware that him staying in his crate was a concession on his part. He was a dog that would respond to threats with commitment. We washed him out of PPD training because of it. If you threatened me he was taking you out, period. But he lived with the kids, and other pets, quite well. 
I currently live with a shy, fear aggressive dog that can and will bite when scared. She is crated with people visiting, muzzled in public and I never, ever, stop paying attention. At home she is sweet, cuddly and playful. I have had her a bit more then 9 years. There is no reason your dog cannot be managed.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I apologize if I missed it in a previous post but Edisimke where are you located (general location) if you don't mind sharing. It's very possible members can give you recommendations on knowledgeable trainers in your area. I have nothing against Police trainers and the like but they do train very differently for a different purpose. Some are great with working with family dogs with issues and some are not at all. Just because they work/train with police K9 doesn't make them the right source for you and your dog. It's not the only criteria I would use in deciding on a trainer. 

I will add that we did use a trainer that trained military working dogs and worked for a company that trained dogs for PP/LEO and security work and family pets. He moved and went on to open his own very successful family pet training center. He taught us a lot about our nervy, fearful dog.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

selzer said:


> I think dogs are far more dangerous when their owners think their six year old "puppy" would never hurt a flea.


Agreed--I see so many GSD owners talk about their dogs as if they were Disney golden retrievers, harmless innocents that are basically walking stuffed animals. I just don't get it. First, it's just not true--they have a mouthful of teeth and strong jaws and any of them could do major damage in the right (wrong) situation. Second, it seems to be making a myth that anyone should be able to come up and do anything and a "normal" GSD isn't going to react. My GSD is pretty nice, but I'm still going to watch him carefully and not put him in a situation where he might do something he can't take back.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ckai said:


> My one and only male shepherd was a bit “off” about certain thing’s. He would nap in the hallway blocking access to the bathroom, and if you startled him trying to step over him or calling his name when you were very close to him, but still in a standing position, he would give the low deep chest growl, jump up freaked out, and turn tail and run. If you did anything next to him while he was napping, he would react the same, no matter where in the house he was. I got him when he was 6, so I’m not sure of his past, but he definitely had weak nerves, and no amount of training would make him kick that. I did a basket muzzle in public just as a precaution, and he was always crated when company was over. He lived his life out with me, but I knew I had an unpredictable dog on my hands, and made sure he was never put in a position to lash out. We also did everything together, and I’d like to think he spent his last years of life feeling loved and comfortable with the management put in place. I would never allow him around children even though he loved them, because who wants that guilt if he had snapped for some reason. He was never in public without the muzzle, and he was never around strangers in the home, it was always crate time. I would think long and hard about whether that is something you’re confident you can do 100% of the time to keep those around you and him safe. If the answer is no, euthanasia is the better option for the dogs quality of life in the long run. 90% outside is excessive with the breed. Why is he outside alone for that long?


I commend your loyalty to this dog and making it second nature how you managed him. This allowed him to live out his life, and no one was the worse for it. 

A lot of people are unable to do this. In fact, some folks that maybe could, won't and that is no shame on them. We get a pet to lower our blood pressure, be a companion to our lives, share our lives with another creature, protect our homes and life sometimes, and to be proud of. Of course there are other reasons too. But even the folks who get a pet to save one from a kill shelter, abuse, or a medical condition that other people would euthanize for, even they mostly expect to come out on the other side with a dog that makes a great pet. For me, having a dog helped to pull me out of myself, and opened a world of human connections because of the dog. A dog like this one is likely to raise your blood pressure, and isolate, and increase your liability and hypervigilance. Should the dog die because of those things? Probably not. But when folks understand their own limitations, they may have to make a different decision for this dog than was done here.

Also if you are living with an aging parent, and especially children, than keeping a dog like this would be totally irresponsible. When preventing serious injury relies upon strict management it is just a matter of time before a family with children has a tragic incident. It does not need to be a death. Who of us wants a child going through life with external and internal scars because of our dog? If you have kids and own this kind of dog, then the kids would not be able to just have friends over. It would have to be orchestrated around the dog. And if we are changing our lifestyle so much that it affects the children who live there, well, that's not right. 

I could keep a dog like this, but probably wouldn't want to. And in that case it would be outside securely kenneled most of the time, and not given time to romp with the other dogs either. I don't like mopping up wounds on dogs either. If the dog was kept in the house, I would put a cushy dog bed in a crate and take the door off, and put it in an out of the way place. I would teach the dog that that is his place. I'd probably have it next to my bed, so he wouldn't be trying to sleep outside my door, even though he has a place of his own. This would prevent the problem with people stepping over the dog and startling him. I know someone's elderly parent was hurt when they tried to step over the sleeping dog. I don't know if the dog bit or not, but just jumping up was enough to cause a fall. That is why I mentioned elderly folks. They are much less likely to survive a serious attack, but they also are easily hurt, and might not survive a broken him or pelvis. And then the dog is blamed at least somewhere in your heart. And, we sometimes cannot tell our parents anything. We can say, "tell the dog to move!" But they don't always think like that, they think, I don't want to disturb him, I just step over... At least old folks won't a stream of unpredictable friends coming over and putting all your management to naught.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CactusWren said:


> Agreed--I see so many GSD owners talk about their dogs as if they were Disney golden retrievers, harmless innocents that are basically walking stuffed animals. I just don't get it. First, it's just not true--they have a mouthful of teeth and strong jaws and any of them could do major damage in the right (wrong) situation. Second, it seems to be making a myth that anyone should be able to come up and do anything and a "normal" GSD isn't going to react. My GSD is pretty nice, but I'm still going to watch him carefully and not put him in a situation where he might do something he can't take back.


I think some of us do own GSDs that are rock solid and some of us are experienced enough to tell which ones those are. The problem is, the vast majority of folks have not had enough experience with enough dogs to have that level of Knowledge. And having the dog evaluated by a trainer, well, first you have to find a trainer/behaviorist who knows what they are doing, and then even if they see the dog weekly through a series of classes, or in a one-on-one session, the assessment is only as good as seeing a dog in a particular setting for 45 minutes. We have to be careful how much of our belief about our dog relies on that, because the assessor only faces a rather unpleasant phone call if he is wrong, all the liability, external and internal, is on the owner of the dog. What I mean by external and internal is this: external would be having a court force euthanasia, paying a huge fine, restitution for medical bills/damages, losing your home-owner's insurance especially if you do have other dogs; while internal would be the knowledge that you allowed someone to get horribly injured, that you put the dog in a situation where he failed and lost his life because of it, or that you and your kids and other people witnessed an awful situation and now one of them wants nothing to do with the breed or dogs.


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

Edisimke said:


> Good day, i am devastated and lost... need some advice. I own 2 gsd, one of them is long hair in tact male 1.5 years old. He is obedience trained, we went to two schools. I work with him everyday, exercise etc. healthy dog. However he has agression towards dogs and strangers. He used to attack my yorkie but now they are fine, even yorkie bites him and hes off running. Last night family came over, he saw my stepdad before (he got in a fight with his gsd about a year ago), at first he barked, i corrected him. After few min he was fine running around, took the treat from guys hand, was waging his tail... fast forward 6 hours later my dog went for a nap by the front door. I didnt notice that stepdad was kneeling down by him and petting (he said he just wanted to be friends and didnt see any uncomfortable signs from the dog), next thing i hear dog growling, i run and see tons of blood. He jumped without warning and got his wrist. I grabbed the dog to remove him from situation , my husband tried to grab him too but he bit my husband too (i believe out of confusion). We ended up in emergency with 4 stiches. Few incidents happened before when trainer came close and tried to take his leash. Other time, another trainer after 3rd class he just started going at him. No one was injured. They told me get e-collar and start freaking using it. U kidding? I believe there must be introduction. Anyway... my husband wants to give dog away since he is unpredictable god forbid it was a kid or someones face. Or stranger, i would be in jail and dog would be put down. I dont know what to do anymore... how do i know what triggered him? He loves kids NOW, how do i know he wont change his mind in a month?! I found another school k9 police where they do evaluation but maybe anyone had similar dog? Would neutering help a little? (Probably not...) if people walking by no one is sticking hand out or talking to him or standing in front of him he doesnt pay attention at all. I socialized him a lot, took him to stores, village fairs so on. I’m afraid something is gonna happen again. Now if someone comes dog will be in crate or i need to get muzzle. Any advice? Please dont judge because i correct my dog and correction is firm.


Many many years ago, we had our first GSD, Rex, who was asleep in front of the TV. My younger sister, then about 4, went over to Rex and dropped down on his paw. Rex whirled around and bit Susan right over her left eye. Rex was mortified as was the entire family. My father took a newspaper to Rex while my mother rushed Susan to the doctor.

Suffice to say that never happened again. But all of us learned an important lesson: make sure that your GSD is not startled awake by anyone, more so a stranger ie. not one of your immediate family members.

We also learned that make sure that the owner's voice does not agitate the dog. Rex's father, Ping. bit one of my childhood friends twice on separate occasions when my mother voice directed to my friend, was strident.

You've gotten some good advice in this forum. Now all that you need to do is follow it.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

CactusWren said:


> Agreed--I see so many GSD owners talk about their dogs as if they were Disney golden retrievers, harmless innocents that are basically walking stuffed animals. I just don't get it. First, it's just not true--they have a mouthful of teeth and strong jaws and any of them could do major damage in the right (wrong) situation. Second, it seems to be making a myth that anyone should be able to come up and do anything and a "normal" GSD isn't going to react. My GSD is pretty nice, but I'm still going to watch him carefully and not put him in a situation where he might do something he can't take back.


Quite true. GSDs are not generally super-social-come-and-pet-me dogs. If a stranger insists on hello, it's clear to me that most of them would prefer just a "sniffshake" so they can go back to their business. The nice ones tolerate petting, but I can tell a lot of them are initially uncomfortable, especially with overhead pets. These dogs are clearly a breed that values good manners from all species, and loathes poor manners.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I can see both sides. I've owned a rock solid GSD I would trust anywhere and with anyone, including very young children. She is the reason many of my friends and family love GSD now. 

And then, I own a male dog who isn't social at all- however he is extremely loving to family he knows.This in my opinion is a dog you can manage.Solid recall, solid down-stay, put the dog away when strangers come over, manage the dog as needed. It's not maybe everyone's ideal, but this is a breed where such temperament isn't abnormal or even aberrant. I'm OK with a GSD who only loves his family. Handler/family aggression bothers me a whole lot, and I'm not sure that is OK for any breed (I wouldn't want to live with such a dog). 

Most of our GSD give us a lot of warning signs when they are uncomfortable and broadcast their intentions if you learn how to read them. This is necessary if you are living with a less stable or even just more civil dog (it's a spectrum, I think, not one or the other). 

"Constant Vigilance!" 

Or just get a mellow dud of a lab and relax.


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## mk12100 (Jan 27, 2012)

I have an 8 year old male who sleeps very sound. About a year ago he was sleeping on the bed, I walked over to him and petted him on the head. He awoke, leaped up on his feet, eyes wide open and bit me on the hand, he realized what he had done, and settled back to normal immediately. I believe he sleeps so sound that I startled him which caused him to strike out at me. I have since petted him while sleeping and he still leaps up but recognize's me and immediately settles back to normal again. He sleeps so sound, that sometimes when I walk by him sleeping, he does not wake up. All my Shepherds are rescue, so I do not know their history before I had gotten them. I have had this one since he was about 2 years old.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I had a similar experience with my dog last summer, minus the blood/stitches. We had company staying over - my husband's brother and his family. We told them repeatedly that our dog does not enjoy being petted by strangers. But on their last day (day 3) my brother-in-law's wife knelt down by my dog's bed where he was lying, and petted him on the head. He barked, lunged up and grabbed her by the arm. There was no puncture, just a bruise. But she was really frightened.

*Lesson learned: Even if you tell people not to touch your dog, most people can not be trusted. Even with extensive stories, warnings, etc. they think they get a special pass (especially if they are dog owners-they think they "know")*

So from now on we'll just be managing more carefully with crate, gates, or even boarding him, if we have people over.
He can be pet on the back when standing up - but petting on head when lying down, tends to be a trigger for him and I should have known better. I was not watching him and by day 3, was feeling pretty relaxed and my guard was down.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GSDchoice said:


> I had a similar experience with my dog last summer, minus the blood/stitches. We had company staying over - my husband's brother and his family. We told them repeatedly that our dog does not enjoy being petted by strangers. But on their last day (day 3) my brother-in-law's wife knelt down by my dog's bed where he was lying, and petted him on the head. He barked, lunged up and grabbed her by the arm. There was no puncture, just a bruise. But she was really frightened.
> 
> *Lesson learned: Even if you tell people not to touch your dog, most people can not be trusted. Even with extensive stories, warnings, etc. they think they get a special pass (especially if they are dog owners-they think they "know")*
> 
> ...


So, so true. I qould even go so far as to say that telling people not to pet a dog encourages some of them to try harder because they are so sure they are the person who can because dogs love them.

The only real solution is making it physically impossible for the people to get to the dog


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

Edisimke said:


> Good day, i am devastated and lost... need some advice. I own 2 gsd, one of them is long hair in tact male 1.5 years old. He is obedience trained, we went to two schools. I work with him everyday, exercise etc. healthy dog. However he has agression towards dogs and strangers. He used to attack my yorkie but now they are fine, even yorkie bites him and hes off running. Last night family came over, he saw my stepdad before (he got in a fight with his gsd about a year ago), at first he barked, i corrected him. After few min he was fine running around, took the treat from guys hand, was waging his tail... fast forward 6 hours later my dog went for a nap by the front door. I didnt notice that stepdad was kneeling down by him and petting (he said he just wanted to be friends and didnt see any uncomfortable signs from the dog), next thing i hear dog growling, i run and see tons of blood. He jumped without warning and got his wrist. I grabbed the dog to remove him from situation , my husband tried to grab him too but he bit my husband too (i believe out of confusion). We ended up in emergency with 4 stiches. Few incidents happened before when trainer came close and tried to take his leash. Other time, another trainer after 3rd class he just started going at him. No one was injured. They told me get e-collar and start freaking using it. U kidding? I believe there must be introduction. Anyway... my husband wants to give dog away since he is unpredictable god forbid it was a kid or someones face. Or stranger, i would be in jail and dog would be put down. I dont know what to do anymore... how do i know what triggered him? He loves kids NOW, how do i know he wont change his mind in a month?! I found another school k9 police where they do evaluation but maybe anyone had similar dog? Would neutering help a little? (Probably not...) if people walking by no one is sticking hand out or talking to him or standing in front of him he doesnt pay attention at all. I socialized him a lot, took him to stores, village fairs so on. I’m afraid something is gonna happen again. Now if someone comes dog will be in crate or i need to get muzzle. Any advice? Please dont judge because i correct my dog and correction is firm.


I have a similar situation my boy doesn't actually connect on the biting just lunges


Edisimke said:


> Good day, i am devastated and lost... need some advice. I own 2 gsd, one of them is long hair in tact male 1.5 years old. He is obedience trained, we went to two schools. I work with him everyday, exercise etc. healthy dog. However he has agression towards dogs and strangers. He used to attack my yorkie but now they are fine, even yorkie bites him and hes off running. Last night family came over, he saw my stepdad before (he got in a fight with his gsd about a year ago), at first he barked, i corrected him. After few min he was fine running around, took the treat from guys hand, was waging his tail... fast forward 6 hours later my dog went for a nap by the front door. I didnt notice that stepdad was kneeling down by him and petting (he said he just wanted to be friends and didnt see any uncomfortable signs from the dog), next thing i hear dog growling, i run and see tons of blood. He jumped without warning and got his wrist. I grabbed the dog to remove him from situation , my husband tried to grab him too but he bit my husband too (i believe out of confusion). We ended up in emergency with 4 stiches. Few incidents happened before when trainer came close and tried to take his leash. Other time, another trainer after 3rd class he just started going at him. No one was injured. They told me get e-collar and start freaking using it. U kidding? I believe there must be introduction. Anyway... my husband wants to give dog away since he is unpredictable god forbid it was a kid or someones face. Or stranger, i would be in jail and dog would be put down. I dont know what to do anymore... how do i know what triggered him? He loves kids NOW, how do i know he wont change his mind in a month?! I found another school k9 police where they do evaluation but maybe anyone had similar dog? Would neutering help a little? (Probably not...) if people walking by no one is sticking hand out or talking to him or standing in front of him he doesnt pay attention at all. I socialized him a lot, took him to stores, village fairs so on. I’m afraid something is gonna happen again. Now if someone comes dog will be in crate or i need to get muzzle. Any advice? Please dont judge because i correct my dog and correction is firm.


The thing with these breeds is that they aren't bred for family they are bred for working and protection, once bonded they can be nice around others but typically are a pack only dog or one person only dog. I think with proper introduction EVERYTIME some one enters your home or outside is key as well as maybe just crating like everyone else is saying until he is with a trainer or trained. My boy needs to be around you for at least a good month before he is not snapping and growling at you every time you breath INSIDE my house, outside is fine he'll ignore you. My take away from mine and your situation is that when you enter our dogs domain they need proper intro EVERY TIME and training ASAP. Thank you for sharing though this helps me too


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't think a good German shepherd should be a hazard around family.

My father is allergic to dogs...or he believes that he is...he is weird. His wife just doesn't like dogs. They both do really strange things if the dogs get anywhere near them, like yelling at them to go away, or raising their arms out of reach and making unnecessary noises, moving around in a weird way, to name a few. Maybe not your average house guests. And my father also sometimes brings his friend who is a very frail old man.

Between the three of them it calls for the dogs to tolerate weirdness, be neutral but not make contact (on my request). One thing you can count on these people not to do is surprise a sleeping dog with hugs and pets because obviously they don't want anything to do with the dogs.

I've had them over a few times and my dogs have been asked not to sit on the furniture while they are here because they'd have a heart attack if a dog sat next to them on the couch, and the dogs have graciously tolerated all the weirdness when they tried to politely say hi.

When step daughter and her now crawling infant joined in on this already bizarre get together I did put the dogs away for a few hours because I felt like it was getting a little stressful for them. Don't touch the baby, don't touch the people, you can't lie here, you can't walk there, etc etc etc. They were being really good sports but I still put them up for a few hours just so they could totally relax. 

Many times I've been so grateful for my really good dogs who have adapted to all the family nonsense that has gone on this year. I always let them know I am happy with them and I never take their tolerance for granted or abuse it.


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