# Is the new style a smaller, sportier Gsd?



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Just lately I have been noticing some smaller , height-wise GSD. They have all been WL with great bone, nice heads, wonderful coats..but were about 22-23 inches tall at wither. Two that I met were just imported from Slovakia. (if that means anything)

I personally, like the smaller, compact, sportier models. Is this the way the breed is trending now? Any of you breeders out there have some insight?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Considering those heights you mentioned are well within standard I wouldn't consider this a "new style". Many GSDs of all lines are large compared to the standard, some oversized, so when those are what one sees frequently it can lead to the skewed perspective that standard size ones are "small" when in fact that isn't the case.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That would be small for a male, but a nice middle of the road size for a female.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Wouldn't that be nice for those of us that want to do sports other than schutzhund that require a little more athletisism...

Seems to me that "bigger is better" is the current trend.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Horand von Grafrath is said by Stephanitz in his book "he was large for that period - from 24-25.5'' at the height of his back, correctly measured." 

It seems that by today's standards, that is on the low end. 

Later on, he shows 1907 field champions Pan and Siegfried von Werne, at least Siegfried is descended from Horand, next to their handler, they are looking rather smaller, compact... the ears come up to their handler's fingertips, so even if you estimate an average sized man at 5'10'', they do appear rather small.

then there is this, The.History.of.the.German.Shepherd.Dog



> "However, due to some Siegers being larger and nobler in a short time the breed became a little taller than was proportionate, so that the working type needed to be brought once more to mind therefore von Stephanitz chose as his 1925 Sieger a grey (sable) dog of moderate size and firm, proportionate, a dog who set his stamp on the breed for evermore, and who marks the dividing line between the “old fashioned” and the “ modern “ German Shepherd – Klodo v Boxberg "


there is not much on Klodo measurements, but later, is compared to a "very common" dog who was 26'' high I think it can be assumed to mean to say that Klodo may be on the smaller side.

so... new? Would not say new, maybe making a welcome resurgence!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I simply don't have the historical background to know of any trends. However, one thing I was thinking is that the activities you and I share interest in demand a smaller, more athletic dog. And therefore as we get deeper into those dog sports, perhaps we tend to notice those smaller dogs more often now since we're looking for them. So if it's a new resurgence or trend- I have no idea. But I certainly am noticing more small GSDs now that I've decided I like that size.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd get a kelpie if I wanted a smaller athletic working dog. My male GSD that I work in sport is on the higher end of the scale and he is very agile, athletic and fast. He collects himself over higher jumps, and can turn like a noodle, stop and pivot on a dime.
But helpers don't want to work him, he(and they) could be injured quite easily so I do take precautions. 

I don't want to see the GSD bred down to a smaller pocket rocket...many other breeds are out there to fill the niche. Extreme on either end of the spectrum is not what the breed is supposed to be. JMO


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd get a kelpie if I wanted a smaller athletic working dog. My male GSD that I work in sport is on the higher end of the scale and he is very agile, athletic and fast. He collects himself over higher jumps, and can turn like a noodle, stop and pivot on a dime.
> But helpers don't want to work him, he(and they) could be injured quite easily so I do take precautions.
> 
> I don't want to see the GSD bred down to a smaller pocket rocket...many other breeds are out there to fill the niche. Extreme on either end of the spectrum is not what the breed is supposed to be. JMO


You make a good point, but ..a kelpie is no german shepherd!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ponyfarm said:


> You make a good point, but ..a kelpie is no german shepherd!


 
:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yeah, my point, if you want a small working dog, the GSD is not bred to be that, and I don't think breeders should start downsizing the GSD for the people who seek out a small structure. It is just as bad as breeders breeding for larger size.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have noticed that the size of the GSD is getting better and better here in my area (by "better" I mean within standard!). People still like to call a 84lb dog "a King Sheppard"  but the size is dramatically changing. 

We have a GSD group who meets weekly and we get new dogs every week joining - one guy came with his dog who was about Stark's size but not as thick boned and said his dog was a King Shepherd but clearly was "smaller than Stark" who is 25.5-26" at the withers and about 84-85lbs.. he said his dog was well over 100lbs and that Stark HAD to be at least 100lbs!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

There was a similar conversation about this before, but you don't need to downsize the breed to be smaller, the lower end of the standard, especially for females, already includes the size that the OP is talking about. A 50 pound, 22" female is correct, not "downsized". I don't see anything wrong with preferring dogs at the lower end of the standard over the higher end of the standard, or oversized.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I have only seen about 4 GSDs in my town since I moved here 7 years ago and 2 of them were Eko's dad and sister and they were oversized, the other two were smaller, pretty much standard. So in my experience I've seen both big and small, even though GSDs are pretty rare around here.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

My Nara is West German lines, and she's 25.5", 78#. We're constantly told that she's small for a GSD, or too small to be purebred. It's so sad at the amount of, and exposure to, these EXTRA LARGE, OVERSIZED GSDs in America, that they are the new norm and my over-the-breed-standard female is considered small. I constantly try to politely educate people about the size standard for height and weight, and let them know that my girl is actually a little too big. I also remind them that this is a medium-large breed and not an extra large breed like many people are led to believe these days.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

After Cyra (22 inches, 50lbs) and Grim (23 inches 75lbs below standard) Beau at 24 inches and 75 lbs (hope he still bulks a little more -he will be 2 in July) seems gigantic.

I had looked into the Kelpie as I like smaller size, and the temperament really is not the same. Very independant and stubborn I have been told. And that is from Kelpie folks I talked with. I think we would see more in SAR if they were more biddable. Good size.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Most of mine were middle of standard....females 63-68 pounds and 57-59 cm....Csabre is 60 cm and at the max of standard....she can weigh 72-80 pounds depending on feed/treats/exercise...right now she is probably 76 lbs and gets a scant 3 cups of food a day, less if a raw marrow bone is on the menu

I haven't raised as many males....Koug is 62 cm and was 78 pounds in his prime, others I kept back for a while were probably 64 cm, Wolf, Granit, Falcon...Cito was probably 65/66 cm and a good 85/90 pounds...Jagr is a bigger boy, probably 65+ cm....and he is only 16 months...

I see a lot of small framed, small boned females out and about...but a 58 cm female at 65 pounds seems pretty average to me. My females have always been very very athletic, some doing agility exercises for fun....Hexe would excel in agility according to AKC agility people who have seen her work....but only so much time in a day...

Lee


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## TAN+ZAK (Nov 22, 2012)

Have never wanted to show ZAK so it doesnt matter but he is way oversize, 45Kgs and so tall that his hip bones stick out even at that wheight.He was the runt and had extra bottle feeds, rest of the litter turned out average sized, I wonder if it was the extra nutrition that did it. It was a litter of 11 who all survived and he was the only one who got extra He still likes a bottle of water from a sports bottle, which is handy on a long hike.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Just curious, what lines tend to produce dogs that are in the middle to lower end of the standard. I'm not talking under sized, but males around 75lbs and females around 60 pounds?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

At Halo's last vet visit a week ago she weighed in at 57.1 pounds. I *think* she's about 22", but I'm not very good at measuring dogs, so that may not be accurate! I don't know if her size is typical of her lines or not though.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

KristiM said:


> Just curious, what lines tend to produce dogs that are in the middle to lower end of the standard. I'm not talking under sized, but males around 75lbs and females around 60 pounds?


I wonder too! I am going to try to get the pedigree of the two smallish,(ok, so smaller than Max! 25" and 75 lbs.) females I saw recently.

I really liked them and sounds like that is how the breed is supposed to be, but we just always seem to see them taller!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are prolific producers like Arek vom Stoffelblick in WL and Cello v Romerau in WGSL that were know for producing smaller dogs sometimes. Of course there are others but these two are examples that frequent many pedigrees although years ago.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Orry and his son Erri z Blatenskeho zamku. 
Also I have heard linEbreeding on Grim z Ps. The female I had linebred on Grim (3-4,4) was small, but the son of Grim I had was a big dog (98 pounds).


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

The presence that a GSD has often makes it seem bigger than it really is.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Definitely! I see bigger dogs than Eko at petsmart but he is the one that gets all the crazy stares. Everyone we meet seems pretty intimidated by him and keep their distance even though he's extremely friendly!


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

gagsd said:


> Orry and his son Erri z Blatenskeho zamku.
> Also I have heard linEbreeding on Grim z Ps. The female I had linebred on Grim (3-4,4) was small, but the son of Grim I had was a big dog (98 pounds).


That is interesting about Erri, he is on Max's dam's side. He also has quite of bit of Grim. One of Max's female siblings is maybe 21" at best. She really is like a ferrari! This is the two of them at eight months old..you can certainly tell the difference in size!


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

im use to the smaller size because i only own females


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A friend of mine is lining up a breeding with Erri on her bitch's next heat (assuming the OFA clears)...I know the bitch and two of her brothers - none of them are very large either. 75-80lbs on the males, not sure what she weighs


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## Thayna (Mar 25, 2013)

My Female is a hair under 22" weighs in maybe 55lbs athletic and agile as a mountain goat and sturdy in build. Freeda is Czech bloodlines Jago Jipo Me is stud lots of info on line about him. Freeda is smallest female I've had although one of my Belschik females was close in size.
Trudy


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

I have to consider that my first two gsd's were both
early spays, so they got taller and heavier. New adoptee
Lillie is 24" at the shoulder, and about 57 pounds. (She
could in my opinion stand to lose just a couple more maybe)

Lillie wasn't spayed until approx. 1 1/2 and while we can't
be positive, she probably had two heats. So, her body got
the cues to mature and her growth stopped. She also has
a bitch stripe, which neither of my other two ever had.

When we first got her, I thought she might have just a 
pinch of another breed, so we did a DNA test and nope,
she's all shepherd. I've gotten much more used to her size
and enjoy it. But at first I did miss the taller, weightier
type.


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