# What is a 'bad' pet owner to you?



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

What is a 'bad' pet owner to you?

Is it someone who has an outdoor only dog?

Is it someone who doesn't exercise their dog enough and doesn't provide adequate training?

Someone who won't euthanize their dog that's in pain because they can't let go?

Someone who abuses their dog? Doesn't provide enough food or water?

Someone whose dog is constantly chained outside?

Someone who doesn't feed good food or take their dog to the vet because they can't afford to?

All of the above? A few of the above? Any type of 'bad owner' that you can add?

Where do YOU draw the line between a good pet owner and a bad one?

I constantly feel like a bad owner so I just wanted to see what others think in general about what makes a 'bad' pet owner.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

We all can only do what we can with the resources we have and the money we have or don't have. In my opinion a good dog owner loves, looks after, protects, guides, teaches, feeds and provides water. Doesn't matter if you are spending $1.00 or $500 on their food, as long as they are feed and provided water. Doesn't matter if you provide hours of varied exercise in the morning and afternoon or just 20 minute walk around the block after work.


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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

Id say when someone starves there dog of food and water but not all the above if ypu have pets yes most people have to work to also be sble feed them vet bills so on mist vets will allow payment scheme so can take them amd people who work still give there dogs plenty off attention they just get it when they come home mine get lots kisses and cuddles when I get in and taken for run to me bad owners are them that hit there dogs and starve them I spent my life rescuing gsd in uk and mostly from starvation or beaten to a pulp my laat one was starved and beaten and the beating round his head caused him have epilepsy was so thin could count every bone and knotch on his spine 

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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

What do you mean, like bad in my mind? Or bad where I step in or call cops? Im pretty strict in my mind- almost all dog owners suck.A dog kept in a dog house in the yard can easily live a better life than many housedogs- even I suck at dog owning and I put alot of effort into it- itd be nice to be 20 years younger. I wont step in unless I witness abuse though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bad owner IMO is one that breeds dogs for profit or fighting, one that starves dog of food, water, and/or affection, one that leaves a dog outside in all elements without shelter, and one that thinks dogs are disposable, for example dog is sick and they choose to not help it because they can just get another one.


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## gloomydog (Oct 23, 2012)

Some of the ones you list make my list, though I do understand when an owner who otherwise loves his dog is constrained by finances and can't offer the best dog foods or play with dog as much as he'd love to. 

The worst dog owner is one who lets his dog get put down out of his own ignorance or passiveness. Someone who fails to train his dog to an acceptable social standard, like the ones who fail to tame their dog's aggressive behavior or take steps to curb those (like if your dog is aggressive, make sure it remains under control always or go somewhere with no other dogs for crying out loud!) Obviously the dog fight people already fall into the despicable human listing as well.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

When you go to visit and their dog tries to greet you but it's 60 lbs overweight and haves to crawl to get to you.

It's great your feeding them, but how about exercising them and making sure they are healthy!!!


(There may be health issues relating to obesity)


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

There are many nuances of bad.
The ones who chain a dog to a tree and forget to feed and water it go without saying. 
But there is also:
Get a dog for the kids and then dump it when it is no longer a puppy bad. 
Get a dog as an impulse purchase without doing research, without knowing the characteristics of the breed, then blaming the dog for doing what it was bred to do bad. 
Get a puppy and blame it for going in the house bad.
Treating a dog like a baby and then dumping the dog for obnoxious behavior bad.
Slapping or hitting bad.
Feeding Beneful bad. 
I could go on and on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

A bad owner is someone who does not care enough to provide the basic needs of an animal. A bad owner has no emotional attachment to the animal. A bad owner can provide all of the above and still be a terrible pet owner.

There are just to many things that make up a bad pet owner. And much of it is subjective. YOU, Amina, are NOT a bad pet owner.

I think my MIL is a terrible pet owner. The animals are all well fed, have basic vet care, live inside and she loves them. However, she is a hoarder. The house is full of fleas. The animals are obese. The cat boxes aren't clean. There is feces throughout the house.

My husband is an ok pet owner. Animals are well cared for, fed well and loved. But he doesn't do anything with them except sit on the couch. The only animal he is ever allowed to have ever again is a stuffed teddy bear.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I contract with a local pet sitting company and the things that I see most often and that make me cringe are:


Poor Quality Food (i.e. Beneful, Ol Roy, etc.)
Dogs who need their nails trimmed
Overweight or underweight pets
Animals with tear stains
The pets that are clearly starved for attention
Dogs with terrible leash manners
Animals kept outside
Less than sanitary living conditions
Outside dogs without ID tags
Invisible Fences
Non clumping kitty litter (this may be more a personal pet peeve)
Dirty aquariums

The greater portion of these are people who are semi trying to be good pet owners because at the very least they have hired a pet sitter to come take care of their animals while away. I'd say most of them just are unaware. Not all, but most.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm not a fan of the people who think the pet owner relationship should be a selfish one way relationship. In the worst cases it takes the form of someone who keeps the dog in a box and can't or won't take care of other needs. It comes out when the owner feels like being an emotional vampire, or at least hopefully to go to the bathroom outside but it's not uncommon for it to have to go in the box, to be cleaned out "hopefully" often. Could end up chained up in the yard and ignored for everything but food and water. Could be nailed for not following commands it was never sufficiently taught or reinforced for. We've all seen it. Sit puppy sit sit sit no no sit sit sit sit why are you so stubborn?/stupid?/not listening? Maybe your dog has no clue what you're talking about. Every so often you run into someone that is shocked dogs don't come out of their mothers knowing basic obedience commands.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't think long nails are a sign of bad ownership. Some people just don't know. I think a bad owner is the one that takes a dog loves and cares for that dog for a number of years and then when its not convenient any more dumps it in a shelter. I don't know any good reason to dump a senior dog at the shelter. If for some reason I couldn't take care of my senior dog I would have him humanely put to sleep.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I would try to rehome. My lab for instance would be fine rehomed as long as they were willing to play fetch with him every so often. Whoever picks up the stick or ball is his new best friend. Then again he is a lab...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

One type of bad owner neglects their dog and rarely even looks at him, let alone give attention, affection, training or exercise. At the extreme end of this, people allow their dogs to starve or die of dehydration or exposure.

On the other end of the bad owner spectrum, the owner anthropomorphizes their dog, and gives him totally inappropriate care, creates behavior problems, overfeeds, does not train, and does not provide strong leadership.

I don't think that keeping a dog outdoors necessarily equals bad ownership, as long as he has his needs met. Working sled dogs, livestock guardians, etc. are generally kept outdoors and that is where they are happiest, IMO.

People who let their dogs suffer with chronic health problems because they cannot afford to see a vet are people who should probably not own a dog, though I can't say that lack of money necessarily makes a "bad" owner.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I try not to be to judgmental. However, The neighbor who took a 2x4 and beat his dog is a bad pet owner. He also tied it to a tree with no food or water. That dog died. Then he got a puppy and beat that one too. I and the other neighbor tried to get the authorities involved, but the dog was left with him. Thankfully he has moved. 

The other neighbors (they are gone now too) who left a dachshund outside in below freezing weather and were surprised it died. They also had a mastiff that they did not train. He was a very sweet dog. He got out a lot and I would take him back home. They did find a home for that one before they moved. By the way they were renting the house and there was a no pets clause in the lease. 

Then when pets get hurt or sick and treatment is delayed or not provided at all. I don't know why people don't take their animals to a vet. Financially maybe they can't, but that is part of owning a dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is so much good in the worst of us
And so much bad in the best of us
That it doesn't behoove any of us
To talk about the rest of us. 

-- Author unknown by the poster


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

The bare minimum of a dog owner should be giving their dog.. Food, shelter and water. At least so I've been told.  

However, I think the true bare minimum is someone who loves their dog, feeds their dog, does what is best for their dog, treats their dog less of an object and more like a living being and there for has commitment to that living being- not an object like a shoe or old TV that you throw away because its not what you wanted, because you "dont have the time that it needs", too many problems or is getting old. 

Basically.. A dog can live on Beneful or table scraps, live in a tent with their homeless owner who would do anything for the dog and is fully committed, get little to no vet care.. And still have plenty quality of life.. 
The basic necessity are there.. Food, water, shelter.. But so its the most important the relationship and commitment of the owner.

But I think its great when some dogs can get great vet care, excellent food, and live in a great big home and yard. But none of that would matter if the person didn't give it the light of day. (at least in most cases, absolutes tend to be quite silly..)

Just my thoughts.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Baillif said:


> Every so often you run into someone that is shocked dogs don't come out of their mothers knowing basic obedience commands.


I wish it was only every so often. Sadly, that mentality seems way too common.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> There is so much good in the worst of us
> And so much bad in the best of us
> That it doesn't behoove any of us
> To talk about the rest of us.
> ...


Bah.
Then we would never talk.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> There is so much good in the worst of us
> And so much bad in the best of us
> That it doesn't behoove any of us
> To talk about the rest of us.
> ...


True, I try not to judge when people are screwing up their own lives. But when they're screwing up someone else's life--especially a life that cannot speak for itself like a baby or an animal--then I think speaking up is appropriate.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Baillif said:


> I'm not a fan of the people who think the pet owner relationship should be a selfish one way relationship. In the worst cases it takes the form of someone who keeps the dog in a box and can't or won't take care of other needs. It comes out when the owner feels like being an emotional vampire, or at least hopefully to go to the bathroom outside but it's not uncommon for it to have to go in the box, to be cleaned out "hopefully" often. Could end up chained up in the yard and ignored for everything but food and water. Could be nailed for not following commands it was never sufficiently taught or reinforced for. We've all seen it. Sit puppy sit sit sit no no sit sit sit sit why are you so stubborn?/stupid?/not listening? Maybe your dog has no clue what you're talking about. Every so often you run into someone that is shocked dogs don't come out of their mothers knowing basic obedience commands.


Sadly, I've meet people like this.


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## ladyb (Oct 11, 2013)

Kahrg4 said:


> I contract with a local pet sitting company and the things that I see most often and that make me cringe are:
> 
> 
> Poor Quality Food (i.e. Beneful, Ol Roy, etc.)
> ...


Well, id say one of these made my parents bad pet owners-keeping our dogs outside-and some others would make me one!-the invisible fence that lets her stay out during the day, and her long nails...try and try but it really upsets her when I have her groomed and they try to clip her nails...
I know it's just opinions and everyone has them, but somehow it still bothers me when I see posts like this...I'll wish later I hadn't responded....
Anyway, my vet says lady is the nicest GSD she has seen in years! 


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## gloomydog (Oct 23, 2012)

Hi Lady

If getting nails clipped upsets your dog but you'll like to keep her nails down, you can let her walk/play on concrete for a while. It doesn't take long for the hard surface to file the dog's nails.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

gloomydog said:


> Hi Lady
> 
> If getting nails clipped upsets your dog but you'll like to keep her nails down, you can let her walk/play on concrete for a while. It doesn't take long for the hard surface to file the dog's nails.


You know, this doesn't work for my GS. It does work for my husky though. IMO it really depends on how the dog walks/plays/runs on concrete for this to work...JMO...


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> There is so much good in the worst of us
> And so much bad in the best of us
> That it doesn't behoove any of us
> To talk about the rest of us.
> ...


Sue, I like you..Thank you for so many thoughtful, interesting posts..Keep it simple and say your piece...You are a treasure...jan


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I suppose I should clarify. I don't view that list as definitive traits of a bad owner. Like I said those are just the things that when I come into the situation as an outsider make me personally feel a pang for the pet.

My main dislike of invisible fences is as a pet sitter having to chase after pets that will ignore the fence and go adventuring. Nothing sends me panicking faster than thinking I've lost someone's pet.


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## GreenCo (Sep 26, 2013)

I haven't read through all the posts just yet but as long as the dog is happy you are not a bad owner. A dog will be happy if you love, feed, exercise and take care of basic vet visits. If you can't do those things then I consider yourself a bad owner.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

all of the below and getting a dog when you can't afford a dog
and you don't have time for a dog.



Zeeva said:


> What is a 'bad' pet owner to you?
> 
> Is it someone who has an outdoor only dog?
> 
> ...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> all of the below and getting a dog when you can't afford a dog
> and you don't have time for a dog.


Actually its all subjective. I don't think that a dog that lives outside as long as they have food, water, shelter and heat are signs of bad pet owner. Just as I don't think feeding cheep food is a sign of a bad pet owner. I definitely don't feel that an overweight dog is necessarily a bad pet owner. My dog growing up was fat! My parents didn't know any better. They were not bad people and the dog lived many happy years with lots of love and table scraps. She might have lived many more without it.... but she was a happy well loved dog who got plenty of love and attention. Long toenails... Oops doesn't make you a bad pet owner. IMO, A bad owner abuses, starves, ignores, and dumps their dogs.


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## GreenCo (Sep 26, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Actually its all subjective. I don't think that a dog that lives outside as long as they have food, water, shelter and heat are signs of bad pet owner. Just as I don't think feeding cheep food is a sign of a bad pet owner. I definitely don't feel that an overweight dog is necessarily a bad pet owner. My dog growing up was fat! My parents didn't know any better. They were not bad people and the dog lived many happy years with lots of love and table scraps. She might have lived many more without it.... but she was a happy well loved dog who got plenty of love and attention. Long toenails... Oops doesn't make you a bad pet owner. IMO, A bad owner abuses, starves, ignores, and dumps their dogs.


My childhood dog lived until she was 17. She was given the cheapest food and table scarps. Only ever got rabies shots and never once saw a vet otherwise. At 17 her hips started to go so we put her down. She lived 17 very happy years and I wouldn't consider my parents bad owners.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

I disagree with you on the weight factor. No dog should be overweight or underweight. How hard is it to put out more/less food and provide daily exercise? Short answer, it's not. Just my opinion. 


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I definitely don't feel that an overweight dog is necessarily a bad pet owner.


I strongly disagree. A few extra pounds is one thing, but a grossly obese dog that can barely walk? I'm sorry, but that's neglect. Getting weight off a dog is the easiest thing in the world--all you have to do is feed them less. You don't even have to get off your butt to walk or exercise your dog (although it helps), just cut the food back until the dog is at ideal weight. You may only have to feed a handful of kibble a day. You even save money on dog food. To me, it's a no-brainer, even poor people can afford to give their dogs LESS food! Seeing a grossly obese dog who can barely walk is the picture of neglect and I don't care how much you *say* you love your dog. Overfeeding and putting your dog at risk of joint problems, heart problems, pancreatitis, liver and kidney disease, etc. is not an act of love!

Don't get me started, I could go on and on...


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

Wish there was a like button lol. 100% agree. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

It is all so subjective. In my line of work I see all types, am a vet tech. 

I see dogs owned by people that keep them outside and feed "bad" food and these dogs are "in love" with their owners. They are happy lovely dogs. I see dogs that never touch the floor, owners that kill with kindness, people that are too busy to notice their pet is sick. I see people that come in every week for one minor thing or another. I can't judge most of them. Most are doing their best. And just because they don't do things the way I would, does not make them bad pet owners. Just different. 

I consider a bad pet owner someone who can't be bothered to care for their pet. Someone who calls and says " my dog has been vomiting for a week, can I come in next tues? " or the people who don't listen to anything the Dr says. Wants their dog better but refuses everything the Dr recommends. Not for monetary reasons, but because " it's just a dog" 

But over and over I get surprised by people I assume are " bad owners". The very big executive type man saying quietly " I don't know what I am going to do without this dog", the old poor country boy making goo goo noises at their retired beagle to distract it from shots, the recent college graduate who maxed out his CC cards to figure out why his cat was so sick only to come to the conclusion that once we figured out what was wrong he could not afford the fix(we got him a grant from AC to pay for the life saving surgery, he cried his thanks), the old woman who only has her pet but can't physically treat it so she brings it in everyday so we can pill it. 

I try very hard not to judge. But it can be hard. I think the things that make me look less on an owner are fixable behavioral issues. People that giggle when their dog tried eat my face, people that admit they refuse to socialize because they want a " protective" dog, people who continually allow their dog to run free and then ask for financial help when it gets hit by a car, again. People who come in every few weeks because their dog is limping, but refuse to put the 37 lb Pomeranian on a diet to help with luxating patella. People that get a breed wholly unsuitable for them then ask to put their 13 mo intact Doberman on Prozac because it's too hyper and they don't have time for needed excersise and stimulation. 

I don't expect people to treat and think of their animals the way I do. But I hope that they see them as living beings who depend on them for everything. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Freestep said:


> I strongly disagree. A few extra pounds is one thing, but a grossly obese dog that can barely walk? I'm sorry, but that's neglect. Getting weight off a dog is the easiest thing in the world--all you have to do is feed them less. You don't even have to get off your butt to walk or exercise your dog (although it helps), just cut the food back until the dog is at ideal weight. You may only have to feed a handful of kibble a day. You even save money on dog food. To me, it's a no-brainer, even poor people can afford to give their dogs LESS food! Seeing a grossly obese dog who can barely walk is the picture of neglect and I don't care how much you *say* you love your dog. Overfeeding and putting your dog at risk of joint problems, heart problems, pancreatitis, liver and kidney disease, etc. is not an act of love!
> 
> Don't get me started, I could go on and on...


Just saw this, my favorite saying, that my whole practice has adopted is " if this dog was as skinny as it is fat, I would call animal control". It is deadly. 


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Right now I am trying to figure out how to deal with one of my grooming clients who owns an elderly, obese Cocker with teeth so rotten you can smell her coming. Every single time, I've tried to stress the importance of veterinary dental care and weight loss, and this poor little old lady only complains about how much the dental will cost. Her vet quoted her I think $300 for the dental, which is next to nothing, but she still balks at the cost. Every time she comes in she says she "loves" the dog, but somehow does not seem to be bothered by the green mountains of tartar on this dogs teeth and I don't know how she can not smell it. It makes me physically nauseous to groom this dog. 

I don't want to offend the lady because then she simply won't bring the dog in for grooming, either--I've just now talked her into coming every 8 weeks, and I don't want to discourage her from keeping her appointments. The first time I saw the dog she hadn't been groomed for at least 9 months to a year--filthy, matted, disgusting condition. So part of me wants to slap this lady for neglect, but in reality, that won't help the dog. It's infuriating.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I strongly disagree. A few extra pounds is one thing, but a grossly obese dog that can barely walk? I'm sorry, but that's neglect. Getting weight off a dog is the easiest thing in the world--all you have to do is feed them less. You don't even have to get off your butt to walk or exercise your dog (although it helps), just cut the food back until the dog is at ideal weight. You may only have to feed a handful of kibble a day. You even save money on dog food. To me, it's a no-brainer, even poor people can afford to give their dogs LESS food! Seeing a grossly obese dog who can barely walk is the picture of neglect and I don't care how much you *say* you love your dog. Overfeeding and putting your dog at risk of joint problems, heart problems, pancreatitis, liver and kidney disease, etc. is not an act of love!
> 
> Don't get me started, I could go on and on...


Is semi-starving a doggie better than having a slightly overweight one? 

Zeeva IMO is a bit overweight. We power walk about 2-3 times a week for an hour and she runs around off leash in a large field. I attempt to cut her food but she seems hungry so I give in because I do not want her snacking on poo that I have not found outside. I was once told that some dogs just have slow metabolisms. Was told that even litter mates living together with the same lifestyle and food can be different with respect to how lean the dogs are...Is it still the owners fault?


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## FortheLoveofChari (Nov 22, 2013)

As I had said to someone at my work:

I feel if people are not doing everything in their power to do what is right, it makes them a bad person. 

If you have a dog, and you can provide them with food...whether it is table scraps, or the cheapest dog food on the shelf (and you CANNOT afford better) then you're a great owner. 

If you live in a one bedroom apartment and you provide them with ample exercise and cuddles at night then you're a great owner. 

What makes a bad owner to me, is when you lock your dog up, whether inside or outside. Only let them out to go to the bathroom, and to feed them. Then you're a bad owner. 

To me if you love your pet and do everything in your financial, physical, and mental power to do what is right, like loving them feeding and giving them ample amounts of water. Then you're a good owner. 

Effort to do those things is what makes a good owner. 

I remember being part of a GSD forum back in 2008/2009. They made me feel like garbage. I lived in a town home at the time. All I was asking for was help to mentally stimulate Chari. We would go to the park, walks, bike rides throughout the week. Half the time I barely had a dime in my name, but she was up to date on her shots and she was fed Blue buffalo Wilderness. However, when I told them of her pacing behavior (I knew it was residual anxiety from her past) and her life story. Immediately they all said I needed to give her to someone better equipped to care for her. 

I was in tears. I had had Chari for about two years at that point. I had done everything I could. When there was an emergency I took her to the vet. I found a way to pay for it. I didn't care what it took or how broke I was. If I had to live off of ramen I would for her and for them to basically slap me in the face, hurt. 

Some people feel you have to be financially off to be a good owner...and IMO you don't..if your intentions are there, and you will find a way to make your dog mentally and physically happy...what does it matter if you can afford this or that. It doesn't. It is all in your intentions. 

As another poster said...you could be a homeless person, but if you can provide the basics, what truly matters is the bond you create.


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## wdkiser (May 7, 2013)

Notice - this is a rant, so spoiler alert, skip if you don't want to read.

I didn't read all of the posts but it's hilarious to me that some put having an "outside only" dog, they consider me a "bad" pet owner. I know some put qualifiers like "without adequate shelter, food, or water" but that should go without saying no matter where the dog lives. I think it's especially funny when I can look at pictures that some post and see overweight dogs and other "issues", listen to people say they lock them up in kennels for hours on end and then take them for a 20 minute walk and wonder why they have behavior issues. I'd be willing to put my dogs quality of life and happiness up against most. I feed raw for many reasons. Some of the same people who tout feeding raw because it is how the dog was intended to be fed are also some who keep their dog in A/C and forced air heating and then wonder why there are skin and allergy issues. I wouldn't go so far as to say inside only dog owners are "bad" owners, there are a lot of other factors that would have to be considered as well.

Rant over.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

Well said. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think we are all too wrapped up with words like, "bad, good" etc. An individual may be well-intentioned but incapable of providing properly for his dog. Someone who simply doesn't know any better, and feeds the dog macaroni and nothing else. This owner is not a good owner. One can make the argument that he is a bad owner, or an ignorant owner, or an incompetant owner. 

Ignorance and incompetance can be the fault of the owner, or not the fault of the owner. 

I think bad owners are those that are intentionally cruel to the dog or dogs. I think beyond that we will all have different definitions. I think it makes just as much sense to ask what is a good owner. A good owner is not just any owner who is not a bad owner. A good owner is also going to be subjective depending on what matters to each of us and how we would define the level of acceptability to say good. Is _good _a b-average, somewhat better than average and not necessarily excellent? Or is good the top, followed by average, and then bad?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Zeeva said:


> Zeeva IMO is a bit overweight. We power walk about 2-3 times a week for an hour and she runs around off leash in a large field. I attempt to cut her food but she seems hungry so I give in because I do not want her snacking on poo that I have not found outside. I was once told that some dogs just have slow metabolisms. Was told that even litter mates living together with the same lifestyle and food can be different with respect to how lean the dogs are...Is it still the owners fault?


You already answered your own question, in the red text.

It's very, very simple. Cut the food back and the dog will lose weight. It has nothing to do with her metabolism or lifestyle or her littermates' lifestyle, it has to do with how many calories she is taking in and how many calories she burns. Period. If she takes in more calories than she needs, the extra will be stored as fat. Just because she acts hungry does not mean anything--dogs are programmed to eat as much as they can as often as they can, because that is how they evolved--feast and famine. A wild wolf never knows when his next meal will be, so he gorges when he's got it. Domestic dogs still retain some degree of this survival instinct even though they don't need it anymore. So while some dogs can moderate their own intake for optimal weight, most will simply gorge until they are obese. Each dog has individual needs and it's up to the owner to judge and provide the appropriate amount of food. Allowing a dog to get so obese it can barely walk is just as bad as keeping him chronically thin, IMO.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GreenCo said:


> My childhood dog lived until she was 17. She was given the cheapest food and table scarps. Only ever got rabies shots and never once saw a vet otherwise. At 17 her hips started to go so we put her down. She lived 17 very happy years and I wouldn't consider my parents bad owners.


She probably lived to 17 because of this!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You already answered your own question, in the red text.
> 
> It's very, very simple. Cut the food back and the dog will lose weight. It has nothing to do with her metabolism or lifestyle or her littermates' lifestyle, it has to do with how many calories she is taking in and how many calories she burns. Period.


I 100% disagree. I had two littermate males. Same exercise, same amount of food. Totally different body types. Shadow was classic shepherd. Buddy was big boned. Big head, big body and more fur. Always was at least 5# more and would gain weight a lot easier. Even though they had the same exercise and same amount of food, we would have to cut Buddy back on food. BTW they were fed separately so we know there was no food steeling going on.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

No one is the same. You can't compare every dog. If the dog is gaining weight, cut it back. That simple.

Has nothing to do with a litter mate who doesn't get fat with the same amount of food. That's beside the point and useless information. 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if you don't have time for a dog and you can't afford a dog
that makes you a bad owner.

a dog living outside is ignored and it's somewhat abusive.

a fat dog is a sign of irresponsible ownership.

long nails, is that taking care of a dog?

ignorance is not a valid reason for not taking care
of a dog.

if you "dump" your dog off at the shelter are you a bad owner?



doggiedad said:


> all of the below and getting a dog when you can't afford a dog
> and you don't have time for a dog.





shepherdmom said:


> Actually its all subjective.
> 
> >>>>> I don't think that a dog that lives outside as long as they have food, water, shelter and heat are signs of bad pet owner. Just as I don't think feeding cheep food is a sign of a bad pet owner.
> 
> ...


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## wdkiser (May 7, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> ...
> a dog living outside is ignored and it's somewhat abusive.
> ...


That is your opinion. In my opinion a German Shepherd trapped inside a 4x4 crate for hours on end is somewhat abusive, physically and mentally.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> if you don't have time for a dog and you can't afford a dog
> that makes you a bad owner.
> 
> a dog living outside is ignored and it's somewhat abusive.
> ...


IMO "dumping" a senior dog at a shelter does make you a bad owner! As I've said before, I would put my senior to sleep before I dumped him at a shelter. He would be terrified and would not do well... that would be cruel. That is my opinion and I know not everyone agrees.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

scarmack said:


> No one is the same. You can't compare every dog. If the dog is gaining weight, cut it back. That simple.
> 
> Has nothing to do with a litter mate who doesn't get fat with the same amount of food. That's beside the point and useless information.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No its genetics. Same family, same exercise, same amount of food and one gets fat and one doesn't.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> No its genetics. Same family, same exercise, same amount of food and one gets fat and one doesn't.


That's beside the point. CUT the food of the fat one. Genetics or not, if their fat their eating too much. That simple. There is no trick formula when it comes to eating. 

Eat more than you can work off, you gain weight.

Can't work more, eat less. 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i agree, a dog that's crated for an excessive mount of time is abusive
if it happens all of the time. what interaction do you have with an outside
dog?



doggiedad said:


> a dog living outside is ignored and it's somewhat abusive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## wdkiser (May 7, 2013)

You are assuming that the people are inside all of the time and the dog(s) are outside all of the time. I am outside more than in, as are others in my immediate and extended family. I can hardly open the door of my truck without the dogs jumping in. We have close to 17 acres and there is plenty to do outdoors at all times of the year.


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

wdkiser said:


> You are assuming that the people are inside all of the time and the dog(s) are outside all of the time. I am outside more than in, as are others in my immediate and extended family. I can hardly open the door of my truck without the dogs jumping in. We have close to 17 acres and there is plenty to do outdoors at all times of the year.


I'm the same way. I'm always outside. Hours on end and the dogs love it. And they love goings for rides in my jeep! I'm only on 2 acres though. 


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I have seen working dogs like sled dogs kept outside all of the time, they all seemed VERY happy and healthy. They get worked most of the day then sleep outside in their doghouses, I don't think that's cruel at all. Outside dogs can get just as much attention as an inside dog, it all depends.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Some people get used to doing stuff and truly believe they are doing the right thing. It is very hard to be judgmental before actually hearing or seeing the reasoning of why they do what they do with their pets.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I 100% disagree. I had two littermate males. Same exercise, same amount of food. Totally different body types. Shadow was classic shepherd. Buddy was big boned. Big head, big body and more fur. Always was at least 5# more and would gain weight a lot easier. Even though they had the same exercise and same amount of food, we would have to cut Buddy back on food. BTW they were fed separately so we know there was no food steeling going on.


So, what's your point?

Irrespective of individual differences, if you feed fewer calories, the dog won't be putting so many calories into "storage", and if you feed even less, the dog will start burning off his reserves, and he'll lose weight.

It doesn't matter what pedigree he has or what his sister is doing or how the stars are aligned. If you decrease his feed, he will lose weight.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> No its genetics. Same family, same exercise, same amount of food and one gets fat and one doesn't.


So feed the fat one less. 

What's not to understand?


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

Freestep said:


> So feed the fat one less.
> 
> What's not to understand?


Glad I'm not the only one haha


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Freestep said:


> So feed the fat one less.
> 
> What's not to understand?


Sounds like what I should do with myself LOL :wild:


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## scarmack (Aug 14, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Sounds like what I should do with myself LOL :wild:


Hahahaha. I laughed at this. 

New Years is coming up! Resolution time lol


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> So feed the fat one less.
> 
> What's not to understand?


Because that is flat not fair. Same amount of exercise they get the same amount of calories. If one is a little bit fatter oh well. Its genetics I'm not going to starve him to fit someones "ideal" of what they think a GSD should be.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Because that is flat not fair. Same amount of exercise they get the same amount of calories. If one is a little bit fatter oh well. Its genetics I'm not going to starve him to fit someones "ideal" of what they think a GSD should be.


Who said anything about "starving"? You feed a dog enough to keep him at ideal healthy weight. If he starts getting fat, you cut back the amount until he is at ideal weight again. Each dog has individual needs, and you feed each dog according to his own particular needs, not by the needs of his brother or uncle or friend. 

You'd let a dog get fat because you deem its particular caloric needs "unfair"? 

Wow. Here I thought I'd heard every excuse in the book, but in 20-some odd years of working with owners of fat dogs, I've never heard THAT one!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think what is unfair is letting a dog get fat instead of feeding a lower calorie food and adding something like green beans to fill the stomach, if the dog is hungry.
If we get fat, it is our choice. It is not a dog's choice to be overweight, it will eat what it is given. This isn't about ideals and looks, it is about health.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Someone who purposely doesn't take care of the needs of the dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Wow. Here I thought I'd heard every excuse in the book, but in 20-some odd years of working with owners of fat dogs, I've never heard THAT one!


Whatever. My dogs are happy and healthy and well cared for. Just because one was a little bigger than the other genetically doesn't make me a bad pet owner. The vet was happy with his size as am I and that is all that counts!


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> This isn't about ideals and looks, it is about health.


I agree with this. My 30 pound dog Barkley is not overweight. When you look at the charts for ideal weight he is right in the ideal range. However, he just blew out is right ACL. The vet said to make it easier on his knees he should lose a few pounds. So, he is going to lose a few pounds, because it's whats best for him.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Whatever. My dogs are happy and healthy and well cared for. Just because one was a little bigger than the other genetically doesn't make me a bad pet owner. The vet was happy with his size as am I and that is all that counts!


One is not fatter than the other "genetically". One is fatter than the other because you are overfeeding him. 

You being "happy" is NOT all that counts. The dog's health and well-being is what really counts, or what *should* count. You say he is happy and healthy being a few pounds overweight, and he might be, for now. But I don't have to tell you all the health problems that extra weight can cause over time. But if you're "happy", that's all that counts?

Different dogs have different needs, there is no "one size fits all" in feeding. Some dogs have different metabolisms and burn calories more slowly than others. So you can feed two dogs the same amount and one may gain weight while the other does not. That's just nature. Bringing "fairness" into it is anthropomorphizing. 

I don't take much stock in what vets say about a dog's weight--I have seen SO many fat dogs whose owners say "The vet said he was fine!" It really makes me wonder; the cynical side of me thinks that vets *want* their patients to be overweight so that their owners will spend more money on the resulting health problems.

If it makes you "happy" that you're being "fair" to your dogs by giving them all equal portions regardless of their needs, does that make you a good pet owner?

Let's turn it around. Let's say you give each dog equal portions, yet one dog loses weight and gets too thin. Will you refuse to increase his feed because it wouldn't be "fair" to the other dogs?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

A "bad" dog owner is a person who is so busy looking for faults in other owners they are unable to see their own.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Enough with the back and forth bickering. 

ADMIN*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the fat dog stuff should be its own topic. 

When I had Rushie he was at 78 pounds, and some woman who saw him said they would put 10 pounds on him. He was awesome at 80 pounds. 

I asked the vet, and they said that a little underweight is better than over-weight. 

I sold him at 80 pounds when he was 4, I got him back at 105 pounds when he was 7. I thought he looked like a coffee table. The new vet-lady said she thought he looked good. My contractor who he went to look for said he was having trouble with the stairs. The dog had OFA good/normal hips/elbows, so I told him to take some weight off of him. He did and he says the dog zooms up and down the steps now, and is doing great. But that is 25 pounds difference between me and the new owner. I don't think Walt took 25 pounds off him. How can two different vets give their blessing on a dog's weight with 25 pounds of difference. 

You would think that there would be maybe 5 pounds leeway, maybe 10. 

With a GSD, you really can't say 26" should weigh 90 pounds. Some are more square with light bone, some are longer and thicker all around. Some have big, heavy blocky heads, and some are leggy. Some have a lot of muscle and muscle weighs more than fat.

So we look at the dog and feel the dog. Even there, there are questions. Should the ribs be right there? Should we be able to see the last one, the last 2? There should be a waist line from the top and from the side. 

And even amongst ourselves on the site we do not all agree. Some would prefer there to be a layer of fat, especially those of us in the north whose dogs spend a portion of each day outside in the elements. Having had a pup get hypothermia when it fell into the drink in February, I changed my clothes first -- I went into the icy river to save Frodo. Then I dried Frodo off because he was in the drink the longest, and then I went back for Arwen who was about 7 months old at the time. The vet told me that puppies do not have the layor of fat they need so she had more trouble with it than the boy did. 

So having them put on a little weight with winter coming on, makes a bit of sense, so long as it is not too much. I make a decision on how much to feed each dog each day by how they look and how they feel. Some are hard to put weight on, youngsters, etc. Some give the impression that they eat all their cheerios every day. Some just seem to store food better than others. I try to keep them all in an ideal range. If any seem over or under, I weigh them regularly to ensure they are not going in the wrong direction either way. And when you see a dog all the time, you can fail to see changes that occur a little over time, not like you can see it if you haven't seen a dog in a month or so, and you see all the differences at once. 

I think allowing an animal in your care to become unhealthy with respect to weight simply because of the amount you feed, might knock you out of the good owner status, but it may not necessarily make you a bad owner. 

I really don't want a groomer to comment on my dog's weight, but I think it is sad that vets will often not mention it when people bring an animal in that has a weight problem. I guess too many people will hear that and leave the practice. I ask point blank, how is the weight, and they always say the dog is at a good weight.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'll be honest and say I don't really understand putting your dog on a diet using dog food. When people go on a diet, they are supposed to eat food that has more nutrients and less calories. But if you just decrease the amount of dog food, aren't you also decreasing the amount of nutrients your dog gets? When you simply decrease the amount of dog food your dog gets, how can you be sure they are getting enough nutrients? If your dog does receive enough nutrition on the new decreased amount of dog food, does that mean you were overdosing on nutrition before?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Nice post selzer. I fall into the want em showing some rib category. In a breed so plagued by hip and joint issues I prefer to keep them on the lighter side of the bell curve. I want to see good muscle development in a thin and athletic dog. 

I would take a strangers opinion of the weights of my dogs with a grain of salt given the number of clearly overweight fat body dogs running around in this area it is clear a large chunk of the population either does not care about the weights of their dogs or fail to recognize an overweight dog when they see one.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Syaoransbear said:


> I'll be honest and say I don't really understand putting your dog on a diet using dog food. When people go on a diet, they are supposed to eat food that has more nutrients and less calories. But if you just decrease the amount of dog food, aren't you also decreasing the amount of nutrients your dog gets? When you simply decrease the amount of dog food your dog gets, how can you be sure they are getting enough nutrients? If your dog does receive enough nutrition on the new decreased amount of dog food, does that mean you were overdosing on nutrition before?


Dogs on well balanced kibble or properly composed raw feed diets don't have the empty calorie issues humans do. Humans find themselves overweight and malnourished thanks to stuff like soda and processed sugars. Assuming you didn't get the dog fat off soda and processed sugars or something super high fat content like gobs and gobs of peanut butter or crap treats like milk bone biscuits the dog is likely fine from a nutrient standpoint, medical issues not withstanding.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I free feed and Eko keeps himself pretty thin. Thin enough I worry sometimes but my vet said he is a good weight and if that's all he wants to eat that's ok. I know it's ok but I don't like to see or feel ribs easily. Xena takes phenobarbitol and she put on a few pounds from that, she still keeps herself in good shape, maybe a couple pounds on the heavy side. I am lucky I have two dogs that can manage their own weight.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Wow, there's so much worse stuff, I've seen owners do to their dogs. Like abuse, hitting them because they tore their shoe. Why are we still on the weight thing.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Msmaria said:


> Wow, there's so much worse stuff, I've seen owners do to their dogs. Like abuse, hitting them because they tore their shoe. Why are we still on the weight thing.


Because this thread is about bad owners, and some of us think that includes porking up a dog who can't choose for himself. The fat dogs won't be offended if we discuss them. 

I'm beginning to be reluctant to voice any opinion here.
It is very difficult to participate in a forum if I have to be constantly walking on eggshells.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Syaoransbear said:


> I'll be honest and say I don't really understand putting your dog on a diet using dog food. When people go on a diet, they are supposed to eat food that has more nutrients and less calories. But if you just decrease the amount of dog food, aren't you also decreasing the amount of nutrients your dog gets? When you simply decrease the amount of dog food your dog gets, how can you be sure they are getting enough nutrients? If your dog does receive enough nutrition on the new decreased amount of dog food, does that mean you were overdosing on nutrition before?


There are plenty of things you can do to boost nutrition while reducing calories. Use a lower cal kibble. Add green beans or other fillers. Add a supplement such as Feedsentials. Cut down on the treats.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Because some of us were unable to post before. 

Really, though, there isn't much you can do that is obvious to prevent your dog from having structural problems, various diseases, cancer, etc. But you can damage your dog's health by letting them become seriously over-weight. I can see the argument for rating someone who does this negatively. 

Evenso, Babs is a little overweight. Jenna is too, but I was feeding for pregnancy with her, and she wasn't pregnant, so that just needs to come back off. No problem. But Babs is a little different. I feed most of my girls 3-4 cups of food a day. I feed Babs 1-2 cups of food a day. She has a waist, but she also looks a little over-weight still. I let her finish things I eat like brussel sprouts, and orange slices, but I only eat once a day at home, and if I let her eat anything of substance, I don't feed her kibble. Doesn't matter. If I feed her no extras, doesn't matter. She just holds that weight. Her poop is always well-formed and solid. 

And she has these eyes. The eyes bore into you and let you know that she is really starving to death. That isn't just me, either. I was going to be gone over-night, and I have an epi dog, so I had Dad go out there just to feed Gretta, and feed Jenna/Karma as I forgot to give them their food. He looked over at Babs, and she told him with her eyes that I was starving her to death. So he gave her some too. He told me he gave her some because she looked at him expectantly. He couldn't say no. 

And there I was last night feeding her a hot dog. I had taken her with me to drop the girls off at home, and it was about 40 degrees out, so we went form a walk when we got in town. She was ahead of me and off lead, and we got to where the Circle K was across the street, and she stopped, looked at it, and looked back at me. 

She looked again, and looked back at me. 

I am such a sucker. 

We walked to the corner and I told her to SIT. Then we heeled across the street. 

She supremely ignored the guy in the car that was complementing her and tried to get her to come to him. And I got to the door and put her on a DOWN STAY, and went in grabbed a hot dog, handed over the four quarters and saw the sherriff's car drive up. I got back out there and was feeding her hot dog hunks as the guy walked up. The clerk came out and gave her a hunk too. 

This morning I gave her under a cup of food. Her coat is sleek and shiney and clean. her eyes are bright. She has plenty of energy. She's eight years old, and the vet says she doesn't look a day over four. I do have to watch her though. She LOVES all people food, but doesn't turn her nose up at kibble either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oops, people who leave their loose dogs outside of stores while they go into shop -- definitely bad owners.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And then feed them hot dogs!!! 

Ugh!!!

And leftover people food!

Terrible owners!!!


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Because this thread is about bad owners, and some of us think that includes porking up a dog who can't choose for himself. The fat dogs won't be offended if we discuss them.
> 
> I'm beginning to be reluctant to voice any opinion here.
> It is very difficult to participate in a forum if I have to be constantly walking on eggshells.


You should keep on voicing your opinions, just build thicker skin on your feet...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

selzer said:


> And she has these eyes. The eyes bore into you and let you know that she is really starving to death.


Dirty Dancing-HUNGRY EYES - YouTube


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

This is a human study, but I imagine it can be the same for dogs

From the article. "Not everyone who is obese needs to lose weight — it's possible to carry extra pounds and still be healthy, a new study says"

Fat Can Be Healthy: Some Obese People Live Long Lives | Yo-Yo Dieting & Weight Loss, Obesity & Mortality Rate | LiveScience


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> This is a human study, but I imagine it can be the same for dogs
> 
> From the article. "Not everyone who is obese needs to lose weight — it's possible to carry extra pounds and still be healthy, a new study says"
> 
> Fat Can Be Healthy: Some Obese People Live Long Lives | Yo-Yo Dieting & Weight Loss, Obesity & Mortality Rate | LiveScience


That is an old study. 

This coincidentally just came out today:

Fat and healthy is a myth, new study says - latimes.com


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I think there are many levels of a bad pet owner. I have a real difficulty with not taking in pets because I always feel like I can do better for them than most people will. Definite qualities of bad owners are abusers and those who neglect. I also feel like if you cannot provide your animal with the care they need, but refuse to give them to someone that can, you are a bad owner. The lines after that get blurry.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some overweight people do not die at age 40 - 60 yeah. Maybe that overweight person that lived to 73 might have had a much better life and lived to 87 if they hadn't been obese. Don't get me wrong, I have fought a losing battle with my weight for all my life. But there is depression involved, loss of the ability to do the exercise that will help, pain, general malaise, asthma, diabetes, and the list goes on all due to extra pounds.

Maybe your dog will live to be 10 or 12 carrying extra weight, but will the dog be as healthy, as mobile, as comfortable if they had that weight shaved down to an ideal range? 

I cannot believe we are trying to justify not doing anything about a dog that is overweight. 

It is one thing to disagree what a dog's ideal weight is. But if you feel your dog is overweight and there are concrete indicators that that is the fact, then not adjusting the intake is an issue. We can control a dog's intake. I think it is seriously much less difficult to take weight off a dog, than it is to put weight on a dog. So the question is why would we not want to.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Yeah. I wish I could lose weight as quickly as Jake did!
Been trying to put weight on Hans, and it is difficult because increased quantities of food give him soft poos


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am right there with you. Hepzi needs some weight and Dolly seems to go down, and I have to get her back up on occasion. Then Karma eats with her mother, and her mother eats the lions share. But if Karma was hungry she would be in there eating it, instead of dancing around outside. Whatever. she isn't starving, but I would like to see a few more pounds on she and Hepzibah, and a few less on Babs and Jenna. And I really wish I could lose weight like they can though. I cut out this or that, and my body goes in conservation mode, and I gain weight! 

Whatever.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> I cannot believe we are trying to justify not doing anything about a dog that is overweight.
> 
> It is one thing to disagree what a dog's ideal weight is. But if you feel your dog is overweight and there are concrete indicators that that is the fact, then not adjusting the intake is an issue. We can control a dog's intake. I think it is seriously much less difficult to take weight off a dog, than it is to put weight on a dog. So the question is why would we not want to.


That's what I want to know!

What I don't understand is why people get offended and defensive when you tell them their dog is overweight. As though it's a personal insult. 

When one of my clients' dogs starts gaining weight, I'll point it out, because often when you see the dog every day you don't always notice weight gain creeping up. Groomers are early-warning systems. We find skin issues, hotspots, lumps, ear infections, eye infections, dental problems, etc. that the owner doesn't notice, and part of our job is to give a heads-up when we see problems brewing. I see weight gain or loss as part of that. 

Some owners don't seem concerned about their dog's weight gain, and I'll eventually stop bringing it up if they're making no effort to remedy it. But you'd be surprised how many owners will also make no attempt to remedy skin issues, ear infections, dental problems, etc. Don't get me started. :crazy:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I cannot believe we are trying to justify not doing anything about a dog that is overweight.
> 
> It is one thing to disagree what a dog's ideal weight is. But if you feel your dog is overweight and there are concrete indicators that that is the fact, then not adjusting the intake is an issue. We can control a dog's intake. I think it is seriously much less difficult to take weight off a dog, than it is to put weight on a dog. So the question is why would we not want to.


I don't feel my dog is overweight. I think that "some" peoples standards of what is and is not overweight are wrong. I think that this is far worse to do to a dog than to over feed it. 










I can't believe we are seriously reaming good pet owners for having a chubby dog where there are people out there that do things like this to dogs!


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Fat dogs are bad. and they dont need anyone sticking up for them. Fat probably takes at least 10 percent off a dogs healthy lifespan. Some owners could care less and just want to feel good by giving food= bad owner.


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## Kat Tastic (Nov 26, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> People that get a breed wholly unsuitable for them then ask to put their 13 mo intact Doberman on Prozac because it's too hyper and they don't have time for needed excersise and stimulation.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I work in the human medical field, so I guess it makes sense, but they give prozac to dogs?? Do they have an ADD/ADHD medication as well? Just curious how that works.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They do animal testing before that stuff ever makes it to human trials.


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## Kat Tastic (Nov 26, 2013)

Of course. I just always picture lab mice or chimps.

How does one diagnose a dog with ADHD? :what: (Not a serious question.)


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If they are a dog they have it by default (not a serious answer...kind of)


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Freestep said:


> One type of bad owner neglects their dog and rarely even looks at him, let alone give attention, affection, training or exercise. At the extreme end of this, people allow their dogs to starve or die of dehydration or exposure.
> 
> On the other end of the bad owner spectrum, the owner anthropomorphizes their dog, and gives him totally inappropriate care, creates behavior problems, overfeeds, does not train, and does not provide strong leadership.
> 
> ...


This post is my idea of a bad owner as well.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I don't think a dog packing on a couple extra lbs is something I would consider abusive. I'd say Buddy could do to loose 3 to 5 lbs or so, to be where I would like him to be, but since he has been constant at all his vet visits the past year, I don't think it's anything to be alarmed about.

Grossly obese? Where the dog can't really function or walk or get around like it normally would...yes. I don't always believe that makes a "bad" pet owner. A bad pet owner would be one that isn't trying to correct it or doesn't care to learn and change their ways to better the dog.

Dogs that are ignored and thrown into the yard as yard ornaments, I would say they are bad owners. Why have the dog if all you are going to do is ignore it except feeding time? I don't think people who keep dogs outside are bad though. My uncle had hunting dogs, growing up he had up to 10-15 dogs at a time, (some his, some he kenneled for friends he hunted with). Unless something important came up (like a death in the family!) he was out with the dogs and his hunting buddies every weekend. 

I guess, to me, a bad owner is someone who ignores (completely ignores, to the point you ask, why do you even have a dog?), starves, beats, mistreats their dog. Everyone keeps talking about technicalities, but I'm sure most people can tell the difference between a dog that is truly neglected vs a personal opinion.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't feel my dog is overweight. I think that "some" peoples standards of what is and is not overweight are wrong.


You said your dog has "a few extra pounds", which to most people means "overweight". Haven't seen a photo of your dog, so I don't know if you're talking about 5 pounds or 25. But most people don't even notice that their dog is overweight until he is WAY overweight, and even then, some people think that's normal. 

The generally accepted standard for proper weight is that you should be able to feel ribs, and on some breeds, see the last rib or two. The dog should have a "waist" when viewed from the top, and there should be a tuck-up at the belly when viewed from the side. Do you think that is "wrong"?

Some people like a little extra fat on their dogs if they live outdoors in cold weather, but most house pets don't need that extra layer of insulation.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Freestep said:


> What I don't understand is why people get offended and defensive when you tell them their dog is overweight. As though it's a personal insult.



See I was one of those owners, because I felt it had to be justified and then a big long explanation. It's taken 2 years to get Oz's thyroid under control and what was more upsetting about him being overweight is he has a degenerative back disease. When his thyroid crapped out, it was literally within a couple months and he was blown up. We finally have it under control and he's down to 70lbs.

I would say a bad pet owner is one who doesn't recognize there is an issue, or justifies why it's OK. I'm not saying I'm a perfect owner, but I try to stay on top of issues. I do credit grain-free food for helping with this thyroid issue, unfortunately I have 2 dogs eating it and 9kg/wk at the price of grain-free, I wouldn't judge someone who couldn't afford to do that and had to rely more heavily on medicine, just as I hope nobody judged me for it taking 2 years and 2 vets to get a medication that worked with a food combination to get him back to a healthy size.

I don't walk everyday - we have a huge yard and typically are outside with them for a couple hours a day, I don't take them everywhere, I actually feel better with them home, there are days when I forget to brush them, although I believe it should be done daily and I haven't had Oz's nails clipped in 4 years, he wears them down. I prefer a vet who will give me a natural choice in treatment and work with me no matter what I choose. I work from home, so I can monitor things easier than others who have to work away from home. Like when I elected to treat a hematoma naturally.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Kat Tastic said:


> I work in the human medical field, so I guess it makes sense, but they give prozac to dogs??


They do indeed. Pongu was on Prozac for a couple of years. He doesn't need it anymore, but I do credit the medication with acting as a 'wedge' to open the door to behavioral rehab. Before it, he was too fearful and anxious to make much progress with the CC/DS protocol; with it, he could (just barely) begin to cope.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

ozzymama said:


> See I was one of those owners, because I felt it had to be justified and then a big long explanation. It's taken 2 years to get Oz's thyroid under control and what was more upsetting about him being overweight is he has a degenerative back disease. When his thyroid crapped out, it was literally within a couple months and he was blown up. We finally have it under control and he's down to 70lbs.
> 
> I would say a bad pet owner is one who doesn't recognize there is an issue, or justifies why it's OK.


I think the owner that attempts to justify not treating a health issue is way worse than an owner who doesn't recognize an issue. The latter may be naive or ignorant, but they can be educated and reformed. If you *know* there's a problem and you can't afford to take care of it, that's one thing. But if you make excuses and justifications for not taking care of it, or spend more time talking about why you're not a bad dog owner than you do actually caring for your dog, maybe you should give the dog to someone who will be able to properly care for him, and get yourself a bird feeder.

I will say, however, that thyroid issues are one area where weight gain can be very stubborn, and getting a dog to lose that weight can be a challenge. So I am sympathetic toward that.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You said your dog has "a few extra pounds", which to most people means "overweight". Haven't seen a photo of your dog, so I don't know if you're talking about 5 pounds or 25. But most people don't even notice that their dog is overweight until he is WAY overweight, and even then, some people think that's normal.
> 
> The generally accepted standard for proper weight is that you should be able to feel ribs, and on some breeds, see the last rib or two. The dog should have a "waist" when viewed from the top, and there should be a tuck-up at the belly when viewed from the side. Do you think that is "wrong"?




Well I just got a call from the vet. Buddy had his senior blood work done yesterday. Well wait let me start at the beginning.. He has always been between 90-100#. Usually right around 92#'s Which compared to his brother 85#s makes him chunky. Remember same litter same exercise same amount of food. Well Shadow passed away a few years ago but Buddy was still getting same amount of food. Recently he's been hurting from Arthritis in the hind end so I decided to cut him back some to see if that would help. Yesterday at the vet 90.6 but back to the phone call. The vet just called and said his CK (sounded like she said CK but I might have miss heard) levels were high and that he was digesting his muscle mass and that I'm not feeding him enough. I need to increase his food. I decreased it from 4 cups a day to 3 1/2 cups a day but apparently that was wrong. I've been told to increase it again. She doesn't want him losing weight. So you tell me. I obviously can't seem to get it right no matter what I do! 



















He doesn't have a tuck up never has had that classic look his brother did.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Here is an old picture with him and his brother. The dog in the middle had a thyroid problem so I don't want to hear about how fat he was.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Freestep said:


> I will say, however, that thyroid issues are one area where weight gain can be very stubborn, and getting a dog to lose that weight can be a challenge. So I am sympathetic toward that.



What was hard I think, was the fact so many of our friends and family knew what we went through when we got the diagnosis on his back, that the decision was supposed to have to be made within a couple years of surgery or euthanize. In the period of a year and a half I moved twice, divorced, got remarried, lost Sandi, had a baby and Oz ballooned, and friends were worried for him, thinking he was depressed, what have you, so even though we could say, no it's a thyroid issue, it was such small steps, lose a bit of weight because a new med would work and then a step back, so I got really defensive about it. I remember friends of my Mom's, she is Welsh and has no filter, we were at Mom's and she looked at Oz and said - Your dog is fat, you have to do something, at that point we were, but it made me not want to take him places because it would evolve into this big discussion of what is wrong, explain and then of course they had an anecdote of their cousin's, brother's twin sister's dog who had a thyroid issue and it was resolved in one vet visit, not realizing, the dog is restricted on what exercises are safe, seems to develop a new allergy every year LOL. We were just the unlucky ones that it took a long time to figure out, to get a med that would work for more than a couple months, to figure out a food that contained nothing that made him itch, but was low enough at fat content... Look, he's back to normal and I still feel like justifying! I think because there is such judgement passed on bad owners and rightfully so, when your dog has an issue that could make people think you don't care or they cannot see visible results in a reasonable time, they think you are not trying.
Then there is poor Dolly with her broken teeth and deformed paw - again people need it explained she's a rescue, she came like that.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

ozzymama said:


> I got really defensive about it. Then there is poor Dolly with her broken teeth and deformed paw - again people need it explained she's a rescue, she came like that.


I can totally relate to how you feel concerning both dogs. Due to Hondo's deformed paw / weak leg he limps 24/7. It's obvious. Yet everyone has to point it out to me, "Hey! Your dog is limping!" I so badly want to say something really rude to them, like "How could you even see my dog over your big fat nose?". I think it's because it offends me that they'd think I wouldn't notice my own dog limping. Or maybe it's because there isn't anything I can do about it and I feel badly about that fact. 

What makes me a 'good' owner is I don't reply rudely to those folks. I point out his paw. I explain how it happened. Then I get to listen for the gabillionth time about how I could have a custom boot made for his paw.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I can totally relate to how you feel concerning both dogs. Due to Hondo's deformed paw / weak leg he limps 24/7. It's obvious. Yet everyone has to point it out to me, "Hey! Your dog is limping!" I so badly want to say something really rude to them, like "How could you even see my dog over your big fat nose?". I think it's because it offends me that they'd think I wouldn't notice my own dog limping.


Oh man, so with you on that one.

When I first got Pongu, he wouldn't put any weight on his front left paw because that was the one that his original owner broke (or else just didn't take to the vet, I don't know which it was, but anyway it never healed quite right).

On top of that, separately, he had pano, which manifested primarily as a shifting lameness that moved from one front leg to the other day by day.

He limped a lot, and _constantly_ people would tell me "hey, your dog is limping!" like NO, REALLY?! THANK YOU FOR THE NEWSFLASH!!

And of course he's super fearful so he'd cringe away from these people and I have no doubt that some number of them concluded that I beat my poor horribly abused dog and that is why he was like that.

I got to practice my gritted-teeth smile a lot during those months.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Usually right around 92#'s Which compared to his brother 85#s makes him chunky. Remember same litter same exercise same amount of food.


So you're thinking that because Buddy's brother is 85 lb, Buddy should also weigh 85? Why? They're not clones. Each dog is an individual, and brothers are not identical twins. In one litter you may have dogs that are 60 lb and dogs that are 90 lb and both are at perfect weight. Height, bone, muscle mass, etc will vary between dogs, so ideal weight will also vary.



> he was digesting his muscle mass and that I'm not feeding him enough. I need to increase his food. I decreased it from 4 cups a day to 3 1/2 cups a day but apparently that was wrong. I've been told to increase it again. She doesn't want him losing weight. So you tell me. I obviously can't seem to get it right no matter what I do!


If those two photos are Buddy, he doesn't look overweight to me. You just assumed he was overweight because he weighs more than his brother?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> So you're thinking that because Buddy's brother is 85 lb, Buddy should also weigh 85? Why? They're not clones. Each dog is an individual, and brothers are not identical twins. In one litter you may have dogs that are 60 lb and dogs that are 90 lb and both are at perfect weight. Height, bone, muscle mass, etc will vary between dogs, so ideal weight will also vary.
> 
> 
> If those two photos are Buddy, he doesn't look overweight to me. You just assumed he was overweight because he weighs more than his brother?


No I never assumed he was overweight. I always thought he was just perfect. Others would look at the two of them and tell me he was fat. Shadow and Buddy were the same height. Buddy was just a different body type. Shadow was very classic, while Buddy was very blocky. 

The last vet visit I asked my regular vet if taking some weight off would help his hind end and she agreed that it would.... The vet that called me this morning was someone filling in for her. I will talk to my regular vet when she gets back into town because I think Buddy looks good. The vet that called has never seen Buddy she just looked at his blood work values without knowing exactly what we were trying to do and why.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> The last vet visit I asked my regular vet if taking some weight off would help his hind end and she agreed that it would....


It does look like there's something going on with his hind end, so keeping him on the lean end of normal would probably be a good idea. I have always kept my dogs on the lean side, especially in their older years, because I didn't want extra strain on their joints.

As far as losing muscle mass, I'm not convinced that feeding more will arrest that. Age and metabolic disorders can cause loss of muscle, but I don't think you caused it by cutting his food back. If anything, I would feed him a higher-protein diet, maybe a raw diet. Gentle exercise is usually a good thing, but if he has rear end issues, that can be difficult.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

I think this thread should be renamed. My dog is over weight, does that make me a bad owner?


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Loneforce said:


> I think this thread should be renamed. My dog is over weight, does that make me a bad owner?


Or, my dog walks funny, has a deformity, bad haircut, that isn't my fault, will you judge me to be an unfit owner.

"Bad Owner" as a title is so subjective. I don't think I know a single "bad owner", amongst family, friends and acquaintances, some I don't agree with their methods, disagree on their ideals or think they are misinformed on certain things, but they all love their dogs and the dogs share in their lives.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Could rename it zeeva baited you into a threadnaught with subjective value judgements nobody will ever agree on completely...meh maybe that's too long.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif, your new avatar resembles a previous boss of mine and it's scaring me.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Could rename it zeeva baited you into a threadnaught with subjective value judgements nobody will ever agree on completely...meh maybe that's too long.


 Your Avatar scares me  JK


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

selzer said:


> Baillif, your new avatar resembles a previous boss of mine and it's scaring me.


lol Setzer we both said it at same time :laugh:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are soooooo many nic cage pictures out there that have that very same off putting effect. It was a close contest between the one I chose and this one.










or this one










I actually went with the tamer choice.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

There is a Facebook page...Nicholas Cage's face on things.. https://www.facebook.com/NicholasCageFaceOnThings

Your avatar reminded me of that, lol.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

The first pic. Looks like he sat on a tack a big tack! Lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I think he's a brilliant actor - but cuckoo-cuckoo...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

bill said:


> The first pic. Looks like he sat on a tack a big tack! Lol
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


He was dressed as a priest and was grabbing a choir girls butt while singing The Messiah, but good guess...oh yeah and that was after he planted a bomb in the building.

Hallelujah - Nicolas Cage - FaceOff - YouTube

One of the greatest scenes of all time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> He was dressed as a priest and was grabbing a choir girls butt while singing The Messiah, but good guess...oh yeah and that was after he planted a bomb in the building.
> 
> Hallelujah - Nicolas Cage - FaceOff - YouTube
> 
> One of the greatest scenes of all time.


He's the dude that played in city of angels? 

I don't think I want to watch the Hallelujah movie from what you described. Not my cup of tea. I kind of hate the way Hollywood portrays people of faith. Not saying there aren't jerks out there, but I don't need to watch them for entertainment.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The movie was face off. He wasn't a priest he was just dressed as one at the time. He was an international terrorist. Yes he was in city of angels.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, that is pretty good for me to recognise the name. The only actors I recognize in name and face are Jimmy Stuart, James Cagney, Humphrey Bogart, Boris Karloff, Harrison Ford, Eddie Murphy, Robin Williams, Jeremy Brett, Basil Rathbone, Errol Flynn and John Wayne. And maybe the dude that played in the Friendly Persuasion/Seargent York. The only actress I can actually recognize by name and face is Betty Davis -- that is kind of sad. 

But hooking up a name to a movie is pretty good for me. I can recognise a dude in a movie if I know he is in the movie, but if he is in another movie, I won't pick him out, if I don't know it is him. 

It is probably a good thing I am not too fussed about movies. 

We are way off topic now, and are probably going to get thumped again.


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