# HELP ME!! I think I screwed up!



## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

*So. I had picked the breeder ******. I know this is a GSD forum, but I have nowhere else to go! I hope she doesn't see this somehow, because I'm afraid it might offend her further, which I *never* intended to do!! I wasn't trying to sound disrespectful. I just was asking a few questions that I would feel more comfortable knowing. Now it sounds like she's not going to let me have one of her babies. 
Help me guys, I'm not sure whether to run, or apologize with my heart in my hands.

So I had a lot of questions, I'm very excited and when I do something I go full-in. I research like mad. I ask all the questions. I become a little mini expert on the subject that I'm involved in. So I heard that you should ask your breeder questions. I apologize in advance for the length.*
*
First I said this:*

"Hi ******!

I'm so excited and just keep coming up with more questions in my brain, and I 
thought I might as well ask. I hope you don't mind!!

(deposit question)

Also, what would you personally say the difference is between your dogs, and the 
ISSR dogs? I have heard a lot of conflicting things, and wanted to get your 
opinion on what the difference is, and why it's better to pick a Shiloh from the 
ISSDC rather than through the ISSR.

Also, why is it that the puppies are only guaranteed against genetic issues up 
to a certain age?

Do all the puppies get cool full names (hehe) like Elke has ***********? Or is that just the sires and dams?

Are the puppies microchipped before they go home? 

Thanks so much for your patience!"

*So, after that she sent me this, which was great but I didn't feel like it answered everything, but it sounds like she had computer trouble. All's good! I wanted to ask her a few more, because most other breeders I've contacted had been really happy to answer any and all questions I had so I thought it wouldn't be an issue. I was hoping she'd be happy I was so invested in researching and picking a breeder. Her reply: *

"Hi (me),

(deposit quesiton)

Most Shilohs come from the ISSR foundation dogs way back that are pure Shiloh's like mine.. I didn't purchase my first Shiloh's from ****** for I didn't like a number of things..
Yes your puppy will have a great name -you pick it.. It can only have 30 spaces, which include coma's, dashes and the space between words.. with ****** in the beginning or at the end of their name.. I will be helping everyone with this..

The ISSDC is not a Registry but a Club.. The Shiloh Registry's are, NSBR, TSSR, WSSBA & ISSR. My kids are Registered with NSBR and will be also with WSSBA.

As far as the guarantee's go usually if they are going to have a problem it will show up before 24 to 30 months.

I'm still having comp problems so I'm sending this now before it won't let me.
Thanks,
*****"

*After this, I sent this.:
*

"Hi*****!

I see. Can't wait for **** scan!

1. I guess what I'm looking for is for you to convince me that you and your dogs are a great way to go. If we pretend for a moment that I haven't picked ******, why should I? What are some of the best things that you bring to the table as a breeder? Why should I have confidence that **** is a responsible and reputable place to get a puppy?

2. What are the strengths and weaknesses of your bloodlines?

3. I'm still confused as to why they're only guaranteed healthwise for that long. Even if it usually shows up by that age, if they have it, they have it. They can't catch a genetic issue later. I would think the guarantee would be for life.

4. I just wanted to know about the microchipping so I know if I will need to do that myself.

5. Do you have any references? I'd love to be in contact with some people who have previously gotten one of your babies, and ask them a few questions.

6. Something I was noticing was that most if not all reputable breeders that I've checked out say that they will take the dog back at any time if the new owner can't keep it for some reason during the dog's life. Do you do this? If not, why not? 

7. Would I be able to meet the moms and on-site sires soon to get a feel for their temperaments etc.?

These are all questions I would really like the answers to. I don't want you to feel like I'm grilling you! 

Thanks, looking forward to the reply,
Me"

*Her reply:*

"Hi (me), 
I don't have to convince You or Anyone about my dogs, why would you even ask this..
Maybe I am not the Breeder for you..
Also I have been Breeding since the late 70's and I am a Very Ethical & Reputable Breeder..
And my Health Guarantee does not have to be extended..
One of the family's on my list is getting their 4th Shiloh from me.
I have a lot to think over now.
*****"


*HELP ME!! I NEVER meant to offend her. I thought that she would be happy to see that I was truly invested in the dogs, invested in my research, and serious about this whole thing! I don't know what to do. I'm desperate. I feel *terrible*. I had no idea she'd been breeding from the late 70's, on the website is says she didn't get her first Shiloh until 2001, and didn't start breeding them until 2004. Before that it was dobermans. I didn't want her to feel like I....I......I don't even know. 

I'm crushed. Absolutely crushed. What do I do? On one hand, I feel like this is my fault for coming across so harsh and should be on my hands and knees apologizing. I can definitely see how it could have come across offensive and like I wanted her to explain herself to me. On the other hand, I kind of feel like it's sketchy that she won't give me references (and didn't send the pictures of her adult progeny that she said she'd send this week), and all of that. What do I do??*

**** Please do not discuss the name of breeders or their kennel name. They have been removed****


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I would count my blessings that you found this out now and can find a good breeder. 
Yes, a good breeder should be happy to answer all of those questions and definitely wouldn't be offended.

It doesn't matter if she has been breeding since 1870 or 1970, 44 years or 144 years.
Your questions are things that every buyer should ask and if a breeder won't discuss them, then better to walk away now.

Don't be crushed. Be glad that you didn't buy a pup from this woman


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

looking at the website, her guarantee is a little thin on some matters. Hip guarantee sounds average except that it only covers "crippling" HD. 
Again, though, I don't see anything wrong with your questions. The fact that she is so upset by them makes me doubt her


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Thanks for your reply, I'm panicking over here. It seems like come on. I had to answer a whole bunch of questions on the questionnaire, why shouldn't I get to have one of my own? I'd be the one paying $1,650 for a puppy. If I had answered her questions with "I don't have to convince you or anyone about me. I'm a very good dog owner", I wouldn't have been allowed to have one of the puppies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do a search on this forum. Somewhere there is another thread on a Shiloh breeder that took a deposit and never provided a pup. Make sure this is not the same breeder!


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

i dont think you screwed up at all... find another breeder. I got my puppy from a backyard but if i were to get him from a real reputable one then the relationship between me and the breeder shouldn't stop when i take the puppy him... and i dont mean to keep in touch every single day either.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

I've never even dealt with a professional breeder and I can tell you to back out now. 

"I don't have to convince You or Anyone about my dogs, why would you even ask this.."

followed by...

"I am a Very Ethical & Reputable Breeder.."

Usually speak volumes about how defensive someone is getting with no explanation. She told you she didn't have to convince you and then spent a bit of time trying to convince you she was honest but making you feel like you aren't good enough for her. Send her an email back stating that she's right, she doesn't have to convince you because you already made up your mind and she is definitely not the breeder for you. 

Why do you have nowhere else to go? Are there not other breeders?


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Yeah. Please keep the responses coming! Ellimaybel, the reason I can't go anywhere else is because I guess I haven't seen other breeders having puppies any time soon. But I'm not willing to sacrifice quality and all of that for getting something *now*. I can wait. I'm looking into the ISSR as well, because they're the official registry. I don't have anything against the "splinter" groups. But from what I'm seeing, they do deal a lot more professionally with their dogs.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

It's good you're willing to wait. I probably should have done more research and stuff before buying my GSD but I didn't learn all that until after the fact. Not that I would trade him for anything in the world, just saying sometimes we get so eager to get a puppy we move too fast. Glad you are going to pick someone else.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Ellimaybel said:


> I've never even dealt with a professional breeder and I can tell you to back out now.
> 
> "I don't have to convince You or Anyone about my dogs, why would you even ask this.."
> 
> ...


saucey


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Sounds like she thinks she is better than anyone so how dare you ask her questions.

I LOVED when potential owners asked questions, never cared how many, and I willingly answered each one. I felt the more they asked meant they had done their homework and were curious about different things.

Find another breeder.. I imagine this one is not going to be of much help after you send money.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Do a search on this forum. Somewhere there is another thread on a Shiloh breeder that took a deposit and never provided a pup. Make sure this is not the same breeder!


i remember that thread, op should check, but i believe that breeder was in new york. the original founder had passed and was taken over by the daughter.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

does it have to be a shiloh? Why not look for a german shepherd, you'd have a better gene pool to select from


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Do a search on this forum. Somewhere there is another thread on a Shiloh breeder that took a deposit and never provided a pup. Make sure this is not the same breeder!


This one?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...der-now-has-deposit-now-no-communication.html


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Run.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think she was answering your questions, and then got fed up. 

"1. I guess what I'm looking for is for you to convince me that you and your dogs are a great way to go. If we pretend for a moment that I haven't picked ******, why should I? What are some of the best things that you bring to the table as a breeder? Why should I have confidence that **** is a responsible and reputable place to get a puppy?"

This is like an interview or interrogation. Why should I pick you? What do you bring to the table? Why should I have confidence in you? I mean, if someone that you were interviewing for a job asked questions of you in that way, it would probably make you feel nervous and defensive. 

"2. What are the strengths and weaknesses of your bloodlines?" This is a reasonable question, depending on where you are in your process. If the deposit is already down and the puppies are here, than it is a little late. If not, then, maybe being followed by the previous question it got read wrong. 

"3. I'm still confused as to why they're only guaranteed healthwise for that long. Even if it usually shows up by that age, if they have it, they have it. They can't catch a genetic issue later. I would think the guarantee would be for life." I don't really know of anyone guarantying a dog for life. Probably there are some people out there, but typically a health guaranty is 2 years from the purchase date. Some only guaranty one year. Dogs are live critters and ALL of them are going to get ill and die some day, if they don't die from an accident or are put down for other reasons. 

"4. I just wanted to know about the microchipping so I know if I will need to do that myself." Again this is a good question, totally unnecessary, because when you pick up the puppy, it is or it isn't and then you decide to make that decision. If you are building a case as to whether to go with this breeder or not, piece meal, then will the microchipping throw the deal for you? 

"5. Do you have any references? I'd love to be in contact with some people who have previously gotten one of your babies, and ask them a few questions." This is a two edged sword. It is offensive and unnecessary. Ask instead, "could I have the name of your vet and/or your trainer?" These are professionals, that may or may not be willing to give a report on the vet, but can be expected to get calls. Lots of people will offer to be a reference and of course, you would only choose the people that are having a good experience with their pup, so its totally worthless. If you haven't asked people to do this for you, you really cannot give out people's private information -- contact information. A trainer should have references and should not be offended if asked, but a breeder, it just depends. They should be able to give contact information to a club member, trainer, or vet that can give a report on them, but puppy buyers -- they have to clear that with them first. And, if they want to have their sister (different last name) field a call and give you a stellar report, they can. 

"6. Something I was noticing was that most if not all reputable breeders that I've checked out say that they will take the dog back at any time if the new owner can't keep it for some reason during the dog's life. Do you do this? If not, why not?" 

This is like a high school essay test. People thinking about getting a family member for life, shouldn't be thinking about how they can dispose of the dog if it may become necessary. It sounds like you got on an internet forum and listed down all the questions you should ask the breeder to find out whether or not they are ethical. 

"7. Would I be able to meet the moms and on-site sires soon to get a feel for their temperaments etc.?" A good question. And reasonable to be able to meet the dam and or sire. But when you mention more than one sire and mom, are you actually talking about a specific litter? Are you asking to meet all the breeeder's dogs? Are you buying the breeder first and then going to look for a litter to suit you? That's cool.

But, there is a point when some breeders will believe that you are going to be a lot of trouble to them. And they will duck out of the transaction. 

I am not saying you shouldn't ask questions. But it is better to use your questions to fuel a conversation. E-mail sucks for this. You want to get a feel for your breeder. Good. But your breeder is feeling attacked. She is getting a feel for you and it isn't good.


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Selzer:

I understand what you're saying, I think you're right. I sent her an email back explaining what I meant and such, and she sent me one back saying she thinks we can work together on this. 

I guess maybe I picked up question formatting from the application. Those questions aren't any less pressing. Regarding the health guarantee, what confused me is that the dogs are guaranteed against GENETIC health issues such as HD etc until that age. But it's not like I'm looking for my money back or for a free puppy, so I guess a guarantee isn't much good to me anyway. Also, when I referred to the parents as plural, it's because she put everyone on the list for three litters. I didn't just copy paste the questions, and absolutely I'm not looking to dump the dog. But if a breeder doesn't want any of its progeny back, even if it comes to that or a shelter, is that because they want nothing to do with then after they're sold? Is it because they're afraid too many of them will come back? I am NOT saying that I think she does any of these things, or that this is why that policy exists. I just think it's a legit question.

After hearing back from her, I feel better... But I'm still a little skeptical because of the sketchy policies and they're the only.breeder I've looked at without a fb page to connect with clients, but that's not a big deal I guess.

I tend to come across harsh accidentally. All I want out of this is to know I'm not making a mistake.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

do you have a website? You can pm me with it, I'd be glad to check it out, I used to belong to the Shiloh club, years ago, there are some that are trying to keep true to what they are producing and some that are not


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If she has been doing this since the seventies, then she is probably in her sixties or seventies. Some older people are up on all the new technology and some are not. 

Facebook is a pain in the backside. Sorry.  But it makes my computer run really slow. Everyone is asking you to play stupid games and loading videos that play loading down your screen, whether you are watching them or not. You have 4000 friends and hit the home page and many of your friends are not even English speaking, so yeah, you know this person. But whatever. Facebook is a tool. It wasn't around in the seventies or the eighties or the nineties. And your breeder is probably working mostly with repeat customers. 

Some of my puppy buyers are facebook friends. Others I know from other stuff. Some use e-mail. Some phone. Some are loaded into my phone. Some are not. Not everyone is going to use the same social media to stay in touch.

Good breeders do not want to add to any pet overpopulation problems, they don't want their puppies landing in shelters, and they want to know if you are having problems. This is something that should be either on their website, if they have one, in their contract if you have read their contract or puppy policy. It is not a question that prospective buyers really should be asking. The breeder should be letting the buyer know to call them if they are having a problem, and that they will take the dog back, etc. in the conversation prior to the sale. If a buyer is asking this question, then they are either giving the breeder the ethical-breeder-litmus-test or they are foreseeing situations where they may have to get rid of their dog. Breeders my not like the first, but they get really wary about the second. No, breeders are NOT wanting puppies back. They want the puppy to succeed. They will take them back, some of them, but they want to place puppies so that they will succeed. And if a buyer is concerned about whether or not the breeder will take the puppy back, it's not a good indication.

What's important here is that you trust the breeder. It is true that people can be breeding for 44 years and still be a junky breeder. So, you need to decide whether or not you are comfortable with this woman. Read every comment on these sites, and then sleep on it, and then decide 5 or 10 questions that matter most to you. 

Get on the phone and talk to the breeder about the litters she has coming up, and look at your questions. See if you can answer your questions in the conversation with the woman. If the conversation brings up more questions, than ask them too -- that's natural. 

Remember that the breeder is sizing you up as well, and she should be.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Snapdragon--I applaud you for trying to do the "right" thing and do research before buying a dog. Being inexperienced in this, you are experiencing a "learning curve."

So much can be conveyed over the phone and then the conversation can flow "naturally" to the different topics you are concerned about. I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with my breeder. She was checking me out too. 

She will not sell a dog unless you also come and see the litter. So driving and spending a night in a hotel allowed me to see her set-up. She even took me up to her bedroom to show where the dogs were whelped. Her set up is impeccable. Her puppies are extremely well taken care of and socialized. 

I saw how she personally interacted with her dogs and the puppies. She has three adult dogs. She made sure I met each dog individually and handed me treats to give out each time. She had the mom of my puppy stay quite a while with us while we talked in her living room. (The dad was from another breeder.)

So when I went home I did not know which puppy I was getting, but I knew that I TRUSTED her. I think that is so important. Personal contact with your chosen breeder is so very important in my opinion.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Snapdragon said:


> Selzer:
> 
> I understand what you're saying, I think you're right. I sent her an email back explaining what I meant and such, and she sent me one back saying she thinks we can work together on this.
> 
> ...


Have you tried calling her and talking directly to her? You might be able to get a better feel for her--email is so impersonal, and often something in email can come across much colder than you intended. If you really liked a particular line of hers, TALK to her.

Susan


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup:

...and more breeders too. 

The other thread cross posted here, MissBetsy ended up with a nice GSD pup. 




JakodaCD OA said:


> does it have to be a shiloh? Why not look for a german shepherd, *you'd have a better gene pool to select from[*/QUOTE]


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