# Police Officer shoots a GSD when serving a warrant to the wrong address!



## mandiah89

Leander police officer shoots dog at wrong house | www.statesman.com

A police officer shoots a GSD in the neck after he went into the backyard of a home attempting to serve a warrant and was at the wrong location! The GSD was shot in the neck after the officer entered the backyard of the home and two GSD's ran towards him and he feared for his safety and fired 3 shots. The GSD is expected to live. 

WOW! Police should really check and then double check their information this whole situation could have been avoided!


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## dpaz

Aside from failing to check the address, did he do any recon at all before heading around back? A non-lethal solution could have been found had the officer only checked for the existence of a dog. Clearly, the badge and gun made him feel sufficiently invincible that he did not feel he needed to check, even to ensure his own safety. Regardless, a man who exercises such limited common sense and foresight has no business carrying a gun at all. A gun is a last resort, not something you should be counting on in lieu of due diligence to get you out of whatever difficult situation you may find yourself in. That sort of recklessly negligent person is not fit to be a hunter, much less a police officer.


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## JackandMattie

A therapy dog, too! This is a shameful story.


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## jafo220

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

We used to post dog warning signs. Wonder is it would have helped in this situation. 

My dog stays inside but he is also not left in back by himself right now. I was thinking of this the other day. 

At the same time, it may be risky to let it be known about having a dog too.


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## Mrs.K

So SICK of this! When are they going to be held accountable for their actions?


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## LifeofRiley

Sad story!

Here is a link to a facebook page that provides more details and photos of the dog and his injuries!
https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForVinny?ref=ts&fref=ts


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## Walperstyle

I have signs specific "German Shepherd on guard duty". In the event someone does something stupid, I know I'm going to at least get a new dog out of the deal. 

I have friends that are police, and understand the BS that they too have to deal with. They are people too. 

We were not there, neither was the media. You can't blame the police officer fully without knowing the full story, its just a sad thing that transpired.


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## Swifty

Mrs.K said:


> So SICK of this! When are they going to be held accountable for their actions?


What do you mean? This is truly an unfortunate story but dogs running toward him can certainly be scary enough for him to be afraid for his life.


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## Courtney

This is a incredibly sad story but I need to know more before I want to hang this cop.

Did dispatch give him the wrong address initially? Was he responding to a domestic despute which btw are some of the most dangerous calls a officer responds to. So many questions....

I feel so bad for the owners & of course the dog.


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## Fade2Black

jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> We used to post dog warning signs. Wonder is it would have helped in this situation.
> 
> My dog stays inside but he is also not left in back by himself right now. I was thinking of this the other day.
> 
> At the same time, it may be risky to let it be known about having a dog too.





Mrs.K said:


> So SICK of this! When are they going to be held accountable for their actions?



The idiots are never held accountable. They will come up with (Lie) a way out of it....

The only thing a warning sign really does though is let the cop have his hand on the gun sooner....

I live in South Hersey (EHT). A couple years ago someone in Estell Manor had put up one of those roadside memorials. Some people didn't like it on the street so someone was putting nails on the road. Well any way a State Trooper decides hes gonna investigate the family that put up the memorial (there was no warrant or anything like that). So he goes up to a property (with a beware of dog sign and a no trespassing signs which were pulled down. Owner said by the Trooper after the fact). Trooper sees a locked fence and hops over it (instead of calling the owners because they had the phone number). This is a multi acre property. Family's GSD dog (named Trooper) was doing like dogs do run on the property. State Trooper sees him running toward him (family said he was friendly). Trooper shoots him 4 times once in the head (see what happens in NJ if you try and shoot a trespasser/robber on your property 4 times). Somehow the dog lived. Owner runs out hearing gun shots on his property. Forget if he said he owned a gun or not but lucky he didn't have it with him or he would have been shot. Trooper doesn't even offer an apology. Family said he harassed them instead. The family got him to a local vet who stabilized him. Then they got him to the University of Pennsylvania. The bill if I remember correctly was 13 thousand. The family also thought the State Trooper was really on the property trying to "discover something" like pot......Any way if you have a badge its a free pass to do as you like.....


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## ken k

Mrs.K said:


> So SICK of this! When are they going to be held accountable for their actions?


ditto, the cop will get off, cause he "feared for his life" seems odd to me, but i have never heard of a cop getting killed by a dog


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## LifeofRiley

Pictures from the Facebook link I posted:



















Poor dog! I personally believe since the officer entered a gated yard his first response should never have been to shoot the dogs. He fired three shots. One struck the dog. Two are unaccounted for. There was playground equipment in the yard that would lead someone to believe there might be children present. The officer seems to have shown really poor judgement in this case. I say "seems" because we have not heard his side of the story yet.


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## ken k

Swifty said:


> What do you mean? This is truly an unfortunate story but dogs running toward him can certainly be scary enough for him to be afraid for his life.


he had no business being there in the first place, WRONG house


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## Fade2Black

From the Justice for Vinny Facebook page. Now I am livid......

Tonight there was a travesty of justice right outside the small town of Liberty Hill.
My family and I were settling in for a peaceful evening. Our 6 year old terminally ill grandchild was sitting at the picnic table by our back door. I had just stepped out of the shower and went to my office to relax for a few minutes. Three shots rang out and I ran to the front door only to see a man dressed in black with a gun. My husband Chris ran up and started yelling that he had shot our dogs. I yelled at him who the **** are you and the man did not answer.

I then ran through the house and saw both Vinny and Roxy our Shepard's standing in the kitchen looking frightened and dazed.

I immediately thought that he had shot my service dog Sadie Mae or our neighbors dog Daisy as the GSD's looked OK at first glance.

I panicked thinking that I was going to find my service dog dead. I tore back out of the house yelling at my husband where was Sadie and Daisy. That's when my husband told me that the guy shot the Shepard's. 

The officer said that they charged him. They always run to the gate to greet anyone and they are both overly social.

The officer was in all black and I did not immediately realize that he was with the police. I asked what the F**K he was doing coming into my yard and he said he was there to serve a warrant. We have been here nearly nine years and no one by that name had ever resided here. He was at the wrong house.

I called 911 to get police protection from our county but alas that was not going to happen. The Williamson County deputies came out and we were expecting an investigation...

What we did not realize was that an investigation was not going to happen.

My neighbor started yelling that he thought he had hit one of the dogs. He had been in his yard hanging laundry when the incident happened. So I ran back in to check again and my grandson came up to me screaming that Vinny was bleeding and his hands were covered in blood.

Vinny had a bullet wound in the back of his neck. When my husband Chris and I started to run Vinny to the emergency vet in Round Rock they told us one of us would have to stay behind to talk to an investigator.

My neighbor rode with me and held Vinny in the back seat on the ride. Vinny is recovering but his future is not certain. he has a long road back to health and may suffer the effects of this for the rest of his life.

My husband called Williamson County and said he wanted a copy of the police report as no one had even come in and checked the cartridges or crime scene. He was told that no report was made that they only came out as the officer had requested backup as my husband and neighbor was yelling at him.

That is a blatant lie as I was the one to call them and request help with a gun crazed officer. He called no one for backup, I made that call.

So everyone decided to just go on their merry way and do nothing at all.

My daughter came home and was appalled when she found out what had happened to Vinny. But she was more so when she found out that her son was outside at the time of the shooting and that was the direction in which the shots had been fired. I would definitely call that careless behavior child endangerment. 
My husband even asked the officer didn't you see the swing set and the clubhouse sitting in the middle of the yard. It was not like he could not tell that there could be children in the yard.

She contacted the FBI and asked for help. Although they can not get directly involved they knew who could. So after her call officers from Williamson County, Liberty Hill & Leander appeared and told my husband that it was going to be treated as a crime scene.

About time!

We will have to wait and see what happen tomorrow but we are not going to give up on Justice for our Vinny.
Or for our grandson who is having nightmares over the entire event.

We feel blessed that Vinny is doing as well as he is and even more blessed that our grandson Landon did not get struck down by a misfired bullet. 

Keep in mind that three shots were fired and only one hit our dog. We have yet to find out where the other two are.





https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForVinny?ref=ts&fref=ts#


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## Swifty

ken k said:


> he had no business being there in the first place, WRONG house


Absolutely, agreed. He went to the wrong house, but I think that was by mistake. Unless he had history with that homeowner?


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## Jax08

There was a similar story last year. Only the German Shepherd died. Perhaps the police need to double and triple check their info before serving warrants.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> There was a similar story last year. Only the German Shepherd died. Perhaps the police need to double and triple check their info before serving warrants.


You mean when they went to the Pastors house and shot their dog that was chained up?

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## Jax08

I don't remember the specifics. I know they were eating dinner and heard gun shots.


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## doggiedad

it's a sad story but LEO's get it wrong sometimes.


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## Jax08

I think this one is it
Illinois police officer goes to wrong house, shoots family's dog - National Dogs | Examiner.com


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## Ceasar

This makes me sick to my stomach.


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## erfunhouse

Walperstyle said:


> I have signs specific "German Shepherd on guard duty". In the event someone does something stupid, I know I'm going to at least get a new dog out of the deal.
> 
> I have friends that are police, and understand the BS that they too have to deal with. They are people too.
> 
> We were not there, neither was the media. You can't blame the police officer fully without knowing the full story, its just a sad thing that transpired.


Having signs holds you legally responsible for owning a "dangerous animal" should some neighborhood moron gets bit in your yard. (Dumb, right?)

But we can't Monday night quarterback. We don't know the situation. And to the poster that asked- he WILL be held accountable. Do you want him shackled in the town square? Is that it?


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## Nigel

So the cop was wearing street clothes, illegally enters someone's property and starts shooting the homeowners dogs?? if this is correct then he's lucky he was not shot by the dogs owner. How many people would assume that this cop was some deranged lunatic and they themselves felt threatened and taken him out. Don't they have level of force training anymore?


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## erfunhouse

Nigel said:


> So the cop was wearing street clothes, illegally enters someone's property and starts shooting the homeowners dogs?? if this is correct then he's lucky he was not shot by the dogs owner. How many people would assume that this cop was some deranged lunatic and they themselves felt threatened and taken him out. Don't they have level of force training anymore?


Where did you read street clothes? If he was- my husband wears street clothes on duty, should he not be allowed to do his job? (Which DOES include barging into homes and taking people into custody). Shooting a charging dog = level of force met. Was he right? We will never know. We will never hear his side. Was this sad? You bet! You never give equal force, you go a step above or you are always behind and over powered. 


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## mandiah89

Nigel said:


> So the cop was wearing street clothes, illegally enters someone's property and starts shooting the homeowners dogs?? if this is correct then he's lucky he was not shot by the dogs owner. How many people would assume that this cop was some deranged lunatic and they themselves felt threatened and taken him out. Don't they have level of force training anymore?


I would have thought it was some lunatic for sure... Diesel almost got shot by a two police officers that were in their uniform but my porch light had burnt out and I just happened to go out for a smoke (I have been smoke free for 8 months now btw lol ) just as the cops were about to step out onto the deck and it was pitch black I did not see them/who they were Diesel went nuts they had both pulled their guns and I was able to yell not to shoot my dog and called Diesel back... They did not park in my driveway, they parked down the street and had the wrong address!!! So yea I know the type of situation.


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## GSD2

Walperstyle said:


> I have signs specific "German Shepherd on guard duty". In the event someone does something stupid, I know I'm going to at least get a new dog out of the deal.
> 
> I have friends that are police, and understand the BS that they too have to deal with. They are people too.
> 
> We were not there, neither was the media. You can't blame the police officer fully without knowing the full story, its just a sad thing that transpired.



May I apologize in advance if I have the wrong person, but I wouldn't post if I thought that were the case. 

I thought what you posted on the the fb page (Justice for Vinnie) was heartless. Giving the family your opinion that they should not sue, ok, but to tell the family to not spend a lot of money on the dog for medical treatment and to just get a new dog out of this, still your opinion, but to tell the family that you hope they learn to deal better with their loss?! IMHO, that was just plain unkind to say to this family.


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## llombardo

erfunhouse said:


> But we can't Monday night quarterback. We don't know the situation. And to the poster that asked- he WILL be held accountable. Do you want him shackled in the town square? Is that it?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We know it was the wrong address, whether it was dispatch or officers fault does not matter. We know that he was dressed in black and did not immediately identify himself. Tell me what would have happened if the homeowner had a gun and decided to protect his family? Thank God the kid wasn't shot. For safety reasons I would think an officer wouldn't go to the back of a house without back up being in the front or vice versa. You are probably right, he will be held accountable because the owners of this dog aren't going to sit by and let it go away and I say more power to them. What about all the other dogs that get shot in the same manner? I would be livid and I would not stop until that officer was held accountable.


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## Gwenhwyfair

There was also an incident last year in ATL a PO at the WRONG address for domestic violence report, shot a German Shepherd that was chained to the side of the garage.



Jax08 said:


> I think this one is it
> Illinois police officer goes to wrong house, shoots family's dog - National Dogs | Examiner.com


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## Jax08

I don't think you have the wrong person, GSD2


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## llombardo

erfunhouse said:


> Where did you read street clothes? If he was- my husband wears street clothes on duty, should he not be allowed to do his job? (Which DOES include barging into homes and taking people into custody). Shooting a charging dog = level of force met. Was he right? We will never know. We will never hear his side. Was this sad? You bet! You never give equal force, you go a step above or you are always behind and over powered.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If you weren't married to a cop, would you think the same way? Sadly we would know if the cop was right, but we won't ever know if he was wrong. That is just the way it is. Has your husband ever gone to the wrong house? Police officers in my area carry pepper spray and stun guns as well as guns, which would be great in cases just like this one.


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## llombardo

Walperstyle said:


> I have friends that are police, and understand the BS that they too have to deal with. They are people too.
> 
> We were not there, neither was the media. You can't blame the police officer fully without knowing the full story, its just a sad thing that transpired.


I have friends that are police officers too and I know what they have to deal with, but I'm not blind to the difference between right and wrong. This was wrong and someone needs to be held accountable. This would have been completely different if that little boy was shot...guaranteed!!


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue you have no way of knowing that for sure.

That's the problem btw, seems like a lot of officers are not being held accountable.

Had a friend who was bullied by a PO just today, he threatened to 'charge' her, ruin her reputation but wouldn't tell her what charges all over a dog that had been abandoned. A dog she's had for 6 months because the people who abandoned it decided they wanted it back and they 'know people'. 

Yeah I know she could report it but you know when you don't have a lot of money for lawyers and you don't know if the good ol boy system will take things out on you and your family you cannot fight back....well a lot of times there is no justice.

That's the other side of the coin, honest people who are not criminals get bullied.





erfunhouse said:


> Having signs holds you legally responsible for owning a "dangerous animal" should some neighborhood moron gets bit in your yard. (Dumb, right?)
> 
> But we can't Monday night quarterback. We don't know the situation. And to the poster that asked- he WILL be held accountable. Do you want him shackled in the town square? Is that it?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ceasar

We live in the real world, where real people make really big mistakes. 

I am devastated when I hear stories like these, but absolutely OUTRAGED when people try to abuse their authority or position to make a mistake go away. I have a lot of law enforcement in my family and circle of friends. I respect them immensely. But EVERYONE is responsible for their actions... NO ONE is exempt. The lengths that these people had to go to make this person accountable for their actions is repulsive and disgraceful... shameful.


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## wdkiser

I don't know the whole story and we only know what the facebook page says. Do we know what they are posting is 100% accurate? No. Do we know that the LEO acted properly? No. Getting all worked up and mad over this is crazy unless and until the whole story is known. I am not a LEO, am not married to a LEO. I know a few LEO's, some are good people, some I don't care for. Same for other categories of people I know. Right now, anything you post is purely speculative and jumping to conclusions. I know nothing at all about this episode, but I could create a FB page and post the exact opposite of what they posted. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean it's true. Remember the commercial on TV where the blonde met the "French model" on the internet??


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## selzer

Everyone who has been here for a while knows I don't generally take the LEOs point of view. But, that is because I don't give them a free pass just because they are LEOs, because they are human like the rest of us. Most of us have made mistakes in our jobs. When your job is often managing violent situations and often having to use violence your mistakes may be more costly than some of ours, but that does not change the fact that they are indeed human and make mistakes.

The thing is, the guy got the wrong address. While it happens it doesn't happen all the time. Maybe you can point to half a dozen cases in the past year, for the whole country. How many cops is that? 40,000? 400,000? I really don't know but the number of cases where there was the wrong address and something really bad happened is really low.

Now what do we really want to happen because this cop shot a dog? Do we want every cop every where to double and triple check their addresses before making every move? Do we want every cop to be too afraid to draw their guns because maybe they are at the wrong place? Do we want for them to be so anxious that their inaction will cost them their lives? 

When this yayhoo went to serve this warrant, he did not think he had the wrong address. He should not go serving warrants with it in his mind that this might not be the right address. If he entered someone's gated yard and did not follow protocol to do so, then I hope that he gets the maximum penalty for that. If he should have waited for back up, and was not following proper procedure, than he should be reprimanded. If he shot the dog through the fence, then that is really disgusting and the fine he gets should cover the dog's vetting. 

I guess the thing is, what did he do wrong if this WAS the right address? I don't think we can possibly do anything to increase the liklihood that police officers will NEVER make a mistake on an address. But if we have methods in place of managing a situation without shooting a dog on private, fenced property, then we can probably reduce the likelihood of dogs of innocent people getting shot. 

The owners of the dog won't like this, I mean, it won't make them feel any better, but it is really rare for this to happen. I think your dog is as likely to be struck by lightning as it is to be shot by a cop who got the address wrong. I hope their dog makes it without any lasting effects, and I bet that beside the family, the cop who did the shooting is hoping that more than any of the rest of us. 

Cops often have dogs, and they often work around dogs, and many of them like dogs. They certainly do not wake up in the morning saying, "I am going to kill me some dog today!"


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## Muneraven

Every time a dumb cop does something like this it makes the public trust ALL cops less, and that puts ALL cops in danger. And most police officers don't deserve that.

I used to blindly trust all police officers. Then I had a step-son who was mentally ill and got violent at times so I got some real-world experience dealing with the police. Most of the cops who came to our house were okay, and a few were remarkable,but I had a female officer partially PULL HER GUN on me once. I was a good eight feet away from the officers and I was crying and all I did was raise my voice in frustration to another officer. I didn't scream at him or come at him. My voice went up like it does when you are crying and someone says something that seems stupid to you. This female officer pulled her gun 3/4s of the way out of her holster and walked toward me fast and told me to leave the room. She scared the bejesus out of me. 

This was after I had been attacked by my step-son with two butcher knives . . .I had a good reason to be crying. After my partner called the police, I had put our dogs away. I had managed to talk our son into going downstairs to the basement because the police were coming and I didn't want them to hurt him if he raised the knives and came at them. I did everything right and was thoughtful of the police officers and the difficulty of their jobs. And despite all that I got bullied by a stupid, power-hungry, bored cop. 

I could tell you other stories. The point is that police officers are given a lot of power, and as such they have a responsibility to do things the right way all the time. No wrong addresses. No pulling your gun when there is no threat. When you work at McDonald's you're allowed to get an order wrong. When you carry a gun and are charged with keeping the peace, you don't get to get anything wrong. That's the deal. If you don't want to bother striving for perfection, go serve up french fries.


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## Mrs.K

llombardo said:


> I have friends that are police officers too and I know what they have to deal with, but I'm not blind to the difference between right and wrong. This was wrong and someone needs to be held accountable. This would have been completely different if that little boy was shot...guaranteed!!


My brother in law is a cop. Boy, did he tell me stories about cops shooting dogs. I did bring it up to him because I couldn't understand for the world why in the US there seems to be the "shoot first, ask later" mentality. I expected him to be offended, he wasn't. In fact he told me stories that were real eye openers.


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## selzer

Muneraven said:


> Every time a dumb cop does something like this it makes the public trust ALL cops less, and that puts ALL cops in danger. And most police officers don't deserve that.
> 
> I used to blindly trust all police officers. Then I had a step-son who was mentally ill and got violent at times so I got some real-world experience dealing with the police. Most of the cops who came to our house were okay, and a few were remarkable,but I had a female officer partially PULL HER GUN on me once. I was a good eight feet away from the officers and I was crying and all I did was raise my voice in frustration to another officer. I didn't scream at him or come at him. My voice went up like it does when you are crying and someone says something that seems stupid to you. This female officer pulled her gun 3/4s of the way out of her holster and walked toward me fast and told me to leave the room. She scared the bejesus out of me.
> 
> This was after I had been attacked by my step-son with two butcher knives . . .I had a good reason to be crying. After my partner called the police, I had put our dogs away. I had managed to talk our son into going downstairs to the basement because the police were coming and I didn't want them to hurt him if he raised the knives and came at them. I did everything right and was thoughtful of the police officers and the difficulty of their jobs. And despite all that I got bullied by a stupid, power-hungry, bored cop.
> 
> I could tell you other stories. The point is that police officers are given a lot of power, and as such they have a responsibility to do things the right way all the time. No wrong addresses. No pulling your gun when there is no threat. When you work at McDonald's you're allowed to get an order wrong. When you carry a gun and are charged with keeping the peace, you don't get to get anything wrong. That's the deal. If you don't want to bother striving for perfection, go serve up french fries.


Some of those cops are 18 years old. Some have less education than the guy serving fries at McDonalds. I don't know about you, but I was a stupid kid at 18 and did some stupid stuff even though I turned 18 in my second year of college. 

One night I was almost 18, and my sister and I had opened and were running a second hand book store up town. We were expanding into the back room and spent the evening and night building book shelves. We were just finished, and in the back most room, and my sister was reading out loud the table of contents of a book that some weirdo brought in that day. I said that I wanted to go home, it was about 2AM, and I walked out of the room and walked right into this cop in the dark. 

I nearly grabbed the pipe wrench I had been using for a hammer and creamed him. I told him he scared the Shtuff out of me, only I didn't say shtuff. He said he would have come in with his gun drawn. We said we were just leaving, and he never asked our names or what we were doing. We closed it all up and locked the door and then walked home. 

Later that night, I was riding my bike -- yeah, I used to study all night some nights, and ride my bike all night on other nights, and sleep once in a while. Anyhow, he pulled me over about five AM, and asked me if that was my sister. And I said yeah, why? Anyhow, he was interested in asking her out. I asked him if he was married. And he said no, he was only 18. It was at that point, I though, My God! They give them guns!?! 

18 year old kids, with guns, can be cops. They aren't perfect. They can be trained to do the job, and some do a better job, and some do a worse job. Lots get killed in their first year. Sad. I don't know if this was a young cop or not, but in general, we shouldn't expect perfection out of police officers. They are human beings, and they will make mistakes. We can do some things to minimize the likelihood that the mistakes will be fatal. But it is going to happen. 

And it makes no sense whatsoever to have them wait until they are 20 or 30 to become cops. They will just have slower reflexes, and still be inexperienced.


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, old enough to shoot a dog or other living being but not old enough to have a beer. Gotta have priorities, eh?


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## Nigel

erfunhouse said:


> Where did you read street clothes? If he was- my husband wears street clothes on duty, should he not be allowed to do his job? (Which DOES include barging into homes and taking people into custody). Shooting a charging dog = level of force met. Was he right? We will never know. We will never hear his side. Was this sad? You bet! You never give equal force, you go a step above or you are always behind and over powered.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


These quotes comes from the dogs owners Facebook page

"The officer was in all black and I did not immediately realize that he was with the police." 

"Three shots rang out and I ran to the front door only to see a man dressed in black with a gun. My husband Chris ran up and started yelling that he had shot our dogs. I yelled at him who the **** are you and the man did not answer".

Does not sound like a uniformed officer. Our sheriffs department used black at one time, but "police" was clearly printed on the front and "sheriff" on the back, it was also reflective making them fairly easy to identify. I also added "if this is correct" given this information is the dog owners version of events.


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## angelas

Whether or not this cop was in the right or wrong there is something to point out about his clothes.

Very often officers that are out serving warrants will dress in plain clothes (street clothes) and drive unmarked police cars. There is really no reason to advertise to a neighborhood (that may actually be helping the suspect avoid police) that they are in the area.

That said, once the homeowners were out of the house with him, the officer should have identified himself as law enforcement, especially if he was in plain clothes.


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## The Packman

Just be glad it wasn't a mentally disabled person that was shot !


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## MichaelE

Nigel said:


> So the cop was wearing street clothes, illegally enters someone's property and starts shooting the homeowners dogs?? if this is correct then he's lucky he was not shot by the dogs owner. How many people would assume that this cop was some deranged lunatic and they themselves felt threatened and taken him out. Don't they have level of force training anymore?


If you come to serve a warrant at my house for any reason ligitimately or incorrectly, I had better see a uniform and a badge otherwise you'll be treated as an armed intruder and that is not likely to end well for you.


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## Fade2Black

selzer said:


> Some of those cops are 18 years old. Some have less education than the guy serving fries at McDonalds.


That's not true where I live. The academy is about a mile or so from where I live. There is a long waiting list to become a police officer. Hundreds take the test because of the pay. I had a co worker who scored a 90 (might have been higher) on the test (which isn't easy. I saw a book he bought about what things are on the test). He was no where high enough the list to get hired (also hurting were military veterans etc who get points because of it). Probably should not give out two many details. But he (like a couple others every year or so) got in the Sheriff dept. by knowing someone really really high ranking in the dept (won't give name but people in the know will easily guess the position). They 1st hire you as an investigator's helper (or something like that) Then when it's up for new hires they get in that way (still gotta pass psychological and graduate academy). But I should add they are qualified. Also should add that real high ranking person is no longer in the Sheriff dept so I don't know if the new person uses that back door method which isn't illegal. But I don't doubt they do it...

I grew up with had a bunch of friends that become cops (some are retired now because of changes made to their pension that would cost them big $$ had they stayed. and they put in the years get good pensions why not get out when you can). I could tell you stories that would make your head spin (trust me you wouldn't believe some) about what some get away with. But once on the force they are taught what to say. How to say it. How to bend the truth up to an outright lie. Then there is the blue wall of silence.....

I'll give one disgusting one (to me) not about civilians but about how the K9 dogs used to be trained (don't know about right now though). Friend got on AC police force. He wanted to be a K9 officer. His Rotty wasn't listening. Instructor told him to pick the dog off the ground and hang him until he passed out. Then screamed at him when he comes around do it again.....


----------



## DharmasMom

selzer said:


> 18 year old kids, with guns, can be cops. They aren't perfect. They can be trained to do the job, and some do a better job, and some do a worse job. Lots get killed in their first year. Sad. I don't know if this was a young cop or not, but in general, we shouldn't expect perfection out of police officers. They are human beings, and they will make mistakes. We can do some things to minimize the likelihood that the mistakes will be fatal. But it is going to happen.
> 
> And it makes no sense whatsoever to have them wait until they are 20 or 30 to become cops. They will just have slower reflexes, and still be inexperienced.



I'm sorry but I am going to disagree with this. I was 19 when I started nursing. I was still expected to be perfect or pretty darn close. If I wasn't people could die. Age should not be a factor, NOTHING should be a factor in certain professions. Police, fire, rescue, medicine. No we are not perfect but that is why you check, double check and triple check everything. People's (and animal's) lives depend on it. 

There is one thing that is indisputable from this situation.

1) The cop had the wrong address. For whatever reason- The address was wrong on the warrant, the cop read it wrong, the cop just went to the wrong house- whatever, it was WRONG. He shot a dog over it. He could have easily shot and killed a child. There needs to be an investigation how this happened and changes made to prevent it from happening again. Period.


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## llombardo

All we know is what the Facebook page says some people say? Yes that is true, but that is because we will never know what the police say. The man is laying next to his dog and stays there because the dog cries when he moves, they have a terminally ill grandchild, they have more then one dog and seem to love all of them, obviously good neighbors since the neighbor went with and held the dog on the way to the vets. Not all people lie, I believe these people are telling the truth and I don't even care what the police have to say. There are good people in the world and these people really have no reason to lie. It would be nice if just once the police would admit they are guilty instead of having a full investigation costing lots of money.


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## erfunhouse

llombardo said:


> If you weren't married to a cop, would you think the same way? Sadly we would know if the cop was right, but we won't ever know if he was wrong. That is just the way it is. Has your husband ever gone to the wrong house? Police officers in my area carry pepper spray and stun guns as well as guns, which would be great in cases just like this one.


Before my current job, I was a cop (MP) so probably. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

The nationwide average is around $50K per year.

However some salaries are as low as $30K and I've heard ancedotal stories of even lower salaries then that.

There isn't a standardized process, from what I understand, in hiring of POs just as there isn't a standardized process for certifying LE K9s that are trained to bite.....

Deputy Sheriff Salary | Indeed.com






Fade2Black said:


> That's not true where I live. The academy is about a mile or so from where I live. There is a long waiting list to become a police officer. Hundreds take the test because of the pay. I had a co worker who scored a 90 (might have been higher) on the test (which isn't easy. I saw a book he bought about what things are on the test). He was no where high enough the list to get hired (also hurting were military veterans etc who get points because of it). Probably should not give out two many details. But he (like a couple others every year or so) got in the Sheriff dept. by knowing someone really really high ranking in the dept (won't give name but people in the know will easily guess the position). They 1st hire you as an investigator's helper (or something like that) Then when it's up for new hires they get in that way (still gotta pass psychological and graduate academy). But I should add they are qualified. Also should add that real high ranking person is no longer in the Sheriff dept so I don't know if the new person uses that back door method which isn't illegal. But I don't doubt they do it...
> 
> I grew up with had a bunch of friends that become cops (some are retired now because of changes made to their pension that would cost them big $$ had they stayed. and they put in the years get good pensions why not get out when you can). I could tell you stories that would make your head spin (trust me you wouldn't believe some) about what some get away with. But once on the force they are taught what to say. How to say it. How to bend the truth up to an outright lie. Then there is the blue wall of silence.....
> 
> I'll give one disgusting one (to me) not about civilians but about how the K9 dogs used to be trained (don't know about right now though). Friend got on AC police force. He wanted to be a K9 officer. His Rotty wasn't listening. Instructor told him to pick the dog off the ground and hang him until he passed out. Then screamed at him when he comes around do it again.....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. The big question is, will this be investigated and will those changes be made? It shouldn't be a question, it should be a given and that's the problem.

There is, IMO, an increasingly cavalier attitude about LE mistakes that harm innocent persons and that's a very bad thing. Usually the justification is 'because we have to deal with so many really bad criminals we shouldn't have to worry about the slip ups that harm innocent people'. 



DharmasMom said:


> <snipped>
> 
> There is one thing that is indisputable from this situation.
> 
> 1) The cop had the wrong address. For whatever reason- The address was wrong on the warrant, the cop read it wrong, the cop just went to the wrong house- whatever, it was WRONG. He shot a dog over it. He could have easily shot and killed a child. There needs to be an investigation how this happened and changes made to prevent it from happening again. Period.


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## llombardo

erfunhouse said:


> Before my current job, I was a cop (MP) so probably.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was going to become a cop, almost finished all the schooling before I changed my mind. It opened my eyes to how things really are. There is no way that because I was going to be a cop or even if I was one that I would think this situation was right. I wouldn't fit in the police world because I couldn't stick up for someone that was wrong, no matter who it is. There is a silent code that no matter what they all stick together and sometimes that can tear a person up that knows what is right and wrong.


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## MichaelE

I did the job for three years and what you write is absolutely true. I saw it every day.


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## ken k

where i live, i was told by the cops, that if my "dog" Max, who was 6 months old at the time, came running towards them, they would shoot, that also happened to another member of this forum, who lives in the same city as i do, found out some time ago, by a cadet with the cops around here, they are taught, "its better to shoot the dog, then have an injured officer"


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## llombardo

ken k said:


> where i live, i was told by the cops, that if my "dog" Max, who was 6 months old at the time, came running towards them, they would shoot, that also happened to another member of this forum, who lives in the same city as i do, found out some time ago, by a cadet with the cops around here, they are taught, "its better to shoot the dog, then have an injured officer"


And yet all of these officers or the cities/towns/counties they work for haven't come up with an easier way. Like I said where I'm at they carry pepper spray and stun guns...I'm 100% sure they would use those over a gun for a dog. I got pulled over a couple days ago and got a ticket. Do they right the ticket out? No, its all computerized and in their vehicles. They could take that money that was used for the computers and put it to better use. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt the officers to actually physically have to write a ticket, like the good ole days.


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## Dainerra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The nationwide average is around $50K per year.
> 
> However some salaries are as low as $30K and I've heard ancedotal stories of even lower salaries then that.
> 
> There isn't a standardized process, from what I understand, in hiring of POs just as there isn't a standardized process for certifying LE K9s that are trained to bite.....
> 
> Deputy Sheriff Salary | Indeed.com


When my husband was a small town city cop, his salary was $16,000. As a deputy here in AR, we more than qualified for food stamps on his salary. 

In WV, a community has one year to send a new cop to the academy. In theory, it is to give them time to save up the $$ to pay for tuition. In reality, it creates a revolving door in many communities - hire a yound HS grad, work him for just short of a year, fire him and hire another young kid. 

Training for dealing with dogs? Not going to happen. We are talking about people who, every day, know that they might not come home. Yes, I understand completely the "shoot first" mentality. Do you know the most dangerous call a cop will go on? Domestic issues. Not only do you have to worry about the enraged assailant but you have to watch your back for the victim as well. Many calls have turned upside down when the victim pulls a weapon to stop the cops from arresting their spouse/boyfriend/child. So if you call in for a domestic problem, absolutely the cops will get nervous if you start raising your voice and getting upset.

As for pepper spray, doesn't work on every dog - especially not at a distance that will let you keep your focus on people that might be coming out of the house. Stun gun? Again, it distracts attention from the house where people might be coming out with weapons. The cop needs to have all of his focus on the reason he is at the house. In the split second that the cop is focused on the dog, he could lose his life. That is why many criminals use guard dogs - helps distract the police so that they can get the jump on them.


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## dpaz

selzer said:


> Everyone who has been here for a while knows I don't generally take the LEOs point of view. But, that is because I don't give them a free pass just because they are LEOs, because they are human like the rest of us. Most of us have made mistakes in our jobs. When your job is often managing violent situations and often having to use violence your mistakes may be more costly than some of ours, but that does not change the fact that they are indeed human and make mistakes.
> 
> The thing is, the guy got the wrong address. While it happens it doesn't happen all the time. Maybe you can point to half a dozen cases in the past year, for the whole country. How many cops is that? 40,000? 400,000? I really don't know but the number of cases where there was the wrong address and something really bad happened is really low.
> 
> Now what do we really want to happen because this cop shot a dog? Do we want every cop every where to double and triple check their addresses before making every move? Do we want every cop to be too afraid to draw their guns because maybe they are at the wrong place? Do we want for them to be so anxious that their inaction will cost them their lives?
> 
> When this yayhoo went to serve this warrant, he did not think he had the wrong address. He should not go serving warrants with it in his mind that this might not be the right address. If he entered someone's gated yard and did not follow protocol to do so, then I hope that he gets the maximum penalty for that. If he should have waited for back up, and was not following proper procedure, than he should be reprimanded. If he shot the dog through the fence, then that is really disgusting and the fine he gets should cover the dog's vetting.
> 
> I guess the thing is, what did he do wrong if this WAS the right address? I don't think we can possibly do anything to increase the liklihood that police officers will NEVER make a mistake on an address. But if we have methods in place of managing a situation without shooting a dog on private, fenced property, then we can probably reduce the likelihood of dogs of innocent people getting shot.
> 
> The owners of the dog won't like this, I mean, it won't make them feel any better, but it is really rare for this to happen. I think your dog is as likely to be struck by lightning as it is to be shot by a cop who got the address wrong. I hope their dog makes it without any lasting effects, and I bet that beside the family, the cop who did the shooting is hoping that more than any of the rest of us.
> 
> Cops often have dogs, and they often work around dogs, and many of them like dogs. They certainly do not wake up in the morning saying, "I am going to kill me some dog today!"


You are absolutely right that this is a very rare thing, which is exactly why the officer should be held fully accountable for all of the damage he caused. This isn't a common mistake that officers all over the country are regularly making, it is something specific to him and a handful of other officers.

In my line of work, if I were to be so negligent, regardless of following protocol (some independent thinking and caution is expected), I would be fired. I do double and triple check my work before "committing" it, and the stakes in my profession are much lower than in law enforcement. If I screw up, shareholders lose an almost insignificant fraction of their money. When he screws up, living beings suffer grievous bodily harm and lose their sense of security. Children get nightmares. "Inalienable" rights are alienated. The list goes on.

These people are professional peacekeepers, not commandos. They have no business charging onto private property like some kind of lone cowboy, planning to use their gun as a first line of defense. Life is not a movie, and they are not behind enemy lines. Backed by a team of people to hold everyone accountable and catch mistakes, and/or with surveillance revealing the occupants are likely to be armed and hostile, I can see using guns as a first line of defense. But there was no team, and there was no surveillance. He did not even know which house he was at.

So yes, I do want law enforcement officers around the country to double and triple check addresses. They MUST have at least as much respect for the power they are trusted with and the laws they have sworn to protect as Joe Anyman, because otherwise they do not deserve that trust and have no business enforcing. Deadly force MUST be a last resort, which means officers should be PREPARED and even PREFER to use non-lethal force, especially when invading private property--warrant or not. Anything less suggests they are taking their authority for granted, and cannot be bothered to make sure the mistakes they will undoubtedly make do not harm the innocent people they work for.

A good LEO is a hero who keeps us safe from criminals.
A negligent LEO is a criminal who endangers our safety, liberty, and peace of mind.

If he requested and was denied a taser, pepper spray, etc, effectively forcing him to resort to lethal force to do his job safely, then I would feel differently. It is certainly possible, but what do you think the odds are? Until I hear something to this effect about that officer, he is a criminal menace in my mind.


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## Dainerra

the problem is, the "wrong address" mistake usually has nothing to do with the police officer. The paperwork is given to the officer says "935 Any Street" It actually should be "953 Any Street" How is the officer to know it is wrong?
Who made the mistake? It could have been anywhere along the line. A typo in the clerks office. A mistaken address given by a witness. A misunderstood phone tip. Sometimes it's an intentional false tip given by the person that the cops are actually looking for.
I would estimate 9 times out of 10 that the mistake isn't on the part of the officer. 

It's not a matter of having "less than lethal" means. It's a matter of using them appropriately. The purpose is to save the officers life. While the officer is focused on the dog, he runs a very real risk of losing his life. In this case, yes it was the wrong address. But if he KNEW it wasn't the correct address (and therefore no danger) then he wouldn't have been there in the first place.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, that's what I've heard ridiculously low salaries.

This is VERY wrong on numerous levels, the obvious one being that someone who is taking such risks should be compensated. Additionally it lowers the bar on hiring, ethics and invites corruption so it's wrong (well to be blunt, stupid) on a lot of levels.

I've always said that the some of the most important jobs are the lowest paid, teachers, fire fighters and police. People want to have a excellent police, excellent educators and so forth but no one wants to pay for it........

I was speaking of active duty K9s being handled by the police, not dogs owned by private citizens I think you're referring to other posters with the rest of your comments.


(btw did you see my post about what happened to my friend? Very similar situation as the hound that was showing up at your house except the PO completely ignored the county ordinances regarding dog abandonment and ownership and she had to give the dog back to people who when in contact with the dog literally got it shaking and gave it diarreah. )







Dainerra said:


> When my husband was a small town city cop, his salary was $16,000. As a deputy here in AR, we more than qualified for food stamps on his salary.
> 
> In WV, a community has one year to send a new cop to the academy. In theory, it is to give them time to save up the $$ to pay for tuition. In reality, it creates a revolving door in many communities - hire a yound HS grad, work him for just short of a year, fire him and hire another young kid.
> 
> Training for dealing with dogs? Not going to happen. We are talking about people who, every day, know that they might not come home. Yes, I understand completely the "shoot first" mentality. Do you know the most dangerous call a cop will go on? Domestic issues. Not only do you have to worry about the enraged assailant but you have to watch your back for the victim as well. Many calls have turned upside down when the victim pulls a weapon to stop the cops from arresting their spouse/boyfriend/child. So if you call in for a domestic problem, absolutely the cops will get nervous if you start raising your voice and getting upset.
> 
> As for pepper spray, doesn't work on every dog - especially not at a distance that will let you keep your focus on people that might be coming out of the house. Stun gun? Again, it distracts attention from the house where people might be coming out with weapons. The cop needs to have all of his focus on the reason he is at the house. In the split second that the cop is focused on the dog, he could lose his life. That is why many criminals use guard dogs - helps distract the police so that they can get the jump on them.


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## Dainerra

yes, there are bad cops. And there are people who will bend the rules for their friends.


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## Courtney

Dainerra, I'm glad you posted. We always share the same views on this topic.


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## selzer

dpaz said:


> You are absolutely right that this is a very rare thing, which is exactly why the officer should be held fully accountable for all of the damage he caused. This isn't a common mistake that officers all over the country are regularly making, it is something specific to him and a handful of other officers.
> 
> In my line of work, if I were to be so negligent, regardless of following protocol (some independent thinking and caution is expected), I would be fired. I do double and triple check my work before "committing" it, and the stakes in my profession are much lower than in law enforcement. If I screw up, shareholders lose an almost insignificant fraction of their money. When he screws up, living beings suffer grievous bodily harm and lose their sense of security. Children get nightmares. "Inalienable" rights are alienated. The list goes on.
> 
> These people are professional peacekeepers, not commandos. They have no business charging onto private property like some kind of lone cowboy, planning to use their gun as a first line of defense. Life is not a movie, and they are not behind enemy lines. Backed by a team of people to hold everyone accountable and catch mistakes, and/or with surveillance revealing the occupants are likely to be armed and hostile, I can see using guns as a first line of defense. But there was no team, and there was no surveillance. He did not even know which house he was at.
> 
> So yes, I do want law enforcement officers around the country to double and triple check addresses. They MUST have at least as much respect for the power they are trusted with and the laws they have sworn to protect as Joe Anyman, because otherwise they do not deserve that trust and have no business enforcing. Deadly force MUST be a last resort, which means officers should be PREPARED and even PREFER to use non-lethal force, especially when invading private property--warrant or not. Anything less suggests they are taking their authority for granted, and cannot be bothered to make sure the mistakes they will undoubtedly make do not harm the innocent people they work for.
> 
> *A good LEO is a hero who keeps us safe from criminals.
> A negligent LEO is a criminal who endangers our safety, liberty, and peace of mind.*
> 
> If he requested and was denied a taser, pepper spray, etc, effectively forcing him to resort to lethal force to do his job safely, then I would feel differently. It is certainly possible, but what do you think the odds are? Until I hear something to this effect about that officer, he is a criminal menace in my mind.


This is just flat out wrong. Well for the most part. A Law Enforcement Officer can only ACT once a LAW has been broken. So, they are not heroes who keep up safe from criminals. They are people who come after a crime has been committed, investigate it, and try to collect enough evidence to find the responsible individual and present him and the evidence against him to the court system. 

Generally, a negligent officer is more likely to get himself killed than anyone else, but yes, they may make serious mistakes. 

But let's say this was the right house. If they were committing crimes in this house, let's say it was a meth-house. Do you think that he should have shot at a pair of charging GSDs if it was a crack house or meth house?

Probably if it was a drug house, there would have been more than one officer, but the dog would probably still have been shot, and most of us would say, "Oh well." If you are there producing drugs and selling them, and your dog is charging at the cops it has to go down.

It is true that a cop has to shoot/kill the dog, because he has to eliminate the obstacle before the next obstacle eliminates him. People do shoot at cops. And yes, domestic violence can be the most dangerous to officers, so you do not have to live in a ghetto or be making meth to have an officer dispatched to your neighborhood, and to have that officer thinking about his own safety first. 

A dead cop is of no use to no one. If a police officer takes the time to reach for non-fatal methods of dealing with a charging dog, and loses time or focus, and is shot and killed because he was trying to be kinder and gentler to the dog, then he is dead, over, he is a negligent cop. He got himself killed. His attention on a charging dog cost him everything he had. And no one is better off for it. 

It is a rare occurance, and I really do not think we should spend tons of money trying to train officers to prevent the situation, and possibly make officers less safe in the process. 

As for nurses and doctors being perfect. Well they aren't point blank. Maybe they try to be. Yes, lives to depend on it, but the fact is, they too are human beings. 

I think that for many of us, trying to be perfect makes us make more mistakes and prevents us from doing our best job. It is far better to do your best every day than to try to be perfect. 

LEOs will NEVER manage perfection and neither will nurses or doctors. All trying to be perfect will do, will increase their constant stress level which will take its toll on their minds and bodies, and it will effect their decisions. Sorry. But that is how I see it. 

This was a tragic mistake, but a mistake, and probably an honest mistake at that. 

I am hearing from the we-don't-have-enough-info crowd, that was totally silent on other issues not involving police officers. The only people out there they seem to care about are cops, and that's probably because they are suffering under the dellusion that cops are perfect. But we really don't need to hear the rest of the story, we do not need to hear the cop's side to the story. Not really. These people on face book _look_ like us, kids have a tree house, guy is lying next to his GSD, nice middle-class people who we identify with, we can believe them. Not like the lower class black woman who was spouting profanities at the reporter and setting her dogs on them. If this cop would have come and shot her dog, the people here would have recognized that her address could easily be mistaken for the right one, that the dogs probably were going to attack him, that she deserved whatever she got with or without the rest of the story.

Whatever, it still ticks me off. Partly because people tend to band together for people that are like they are, and against people who they perceive as lower than themselves. And partly because people expect everyone else to be pefect in every situation. They do not allow for a woman's grief and fatigue marring her judgement, or a cop's feeling of possible danger making him react as he would if he was a the right address. 

Maybe this particular cop shouldn't be a cop. If that is the case, and most likely, this incident will reflect poorly on his next performance review, he will most likely be encouraged to find other work, or placed in a different position, most likely. I say this because incidents like this are really rare. If people just covered up and ignored these situations, then we would have dogs shot ALL THE TIME. There would be hundreds of dogs shot each year, not half a dozen.


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## GatorBytes

Why didn't he just ring the front door bell, you don't need to sneak in the back to serve a warrant


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## selzer

Is it possible that he banged on the front door, heard people in there, but no one came to answer the door? So he went around back to see if there were people in the back yard? 

I mean, if the people inside the house did not hear him at the door, then they will believe that he never tried the front door. 

If a cop goes in my back yard, then there is no question that he will know that there are GSDs back there. They bark. They will be barking before he gets out of his car. So no way could he get through the gate without knowing that there are shepherds out back. 

The way this sounds, the dog went back inside and was bleeding inside. I wonder if the dog has a doggy door to the back yard. And can go in and out on its own. I mean, the owner did not seem to know which dogs were inside and which were outside. I wonder if the cop got to the gate and did not hear any dogs, did not realize there were dogs, opened the gate and was totally surprised by the dog after he was already in the back yard. 

In no way is this the fault of the dog-owners. They are understandably upset about what happened. But for those of us who do not own this dog, I think we should be able to step back and see it from a more neutral point of view. 

I really don't know what the proper procedure is if no one shows up at the door, but they appear to be home. If all a criminal needs to do to avoid a warrant is fail to open the door, then why is anyone sitting in prison?


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## Dainerra

Well Said Sue!


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## Fade2Black

Here is the story and video....

The warrant was for a friggin expired vehicle inspection!! (from video but story says vehicle registration) The GSD's dog owner is a professional dog trainer.... I hope the family hires a great civil rights attorney and sues the (fill in blank) out of that police dept....

http://news.yahoo.com/video/dog-shot-police-officer-warrant-044100854.html

LIBERTY HILL -- Vinny is German Sheppard with a bullet wound on the back of his neck. On Monday, a Leander police officer shot Vinny when he says the dog and another German Sheppard came running at him while trying to serve a warrant.



"He said they were growling, and closing distance very quickly,” said Lt. Derral Partin, a spokesperson for Leander Police.


However, Vinny’s owners Renata and Chris Simmons, say Vinny has never acted aggressively.


“This dog wasn't after him. This dog was just running up going 'hey what are you doing?' and they have a right to do that. This is my yard; this man should not have even been there. He could have killed my husband's best friend,” said Renata Simmons.


The Simmons also tell KVUE they have never heard of the man that police were looking for. 



The warrant was for a man named Bradly Neal Simpson, who is wanted for an expired vehicle registration. 



The address on the warrant is in Cedar Park, not Liberty Hill where the Simmons have lived for nine years. However, Leander Police say their database shows Simpson’s last known address as the same one where the Simmons live.
“I’ve never heard of him,” said Simmons.



After entering the Simmons’ gate and knocking on their front door, the Leander police officer began walking around to the back of the house. 


According to the officer, two German Sheppards starting running toward him, so he fired three shots and one of them struck Vinny in the back of the neck.



The Simmons say not only was it a close call for their dog, Vinny, but it was also a close call for their 6-year old terminally ill grandchild playing just around the corner.



“I was in my house, my grandchild was at the back picnic table, my husband was in the kitchen getting a snack and my dogs do what they do; run in and out.”


Leander Police say the officer never noticed the child, and it’s policy to use lethal force on any animal they think is attacking.
“We're trained to fire until the threat is stopped,” said Partin.



Renata Simmons is a professional dog trainer for “Find. Love. Train.” She says there are always people coming and going in their backyard, so Vinny is used to seeing unfamiliar faces and has never been aggressive.



“The dogs always do the same thing, they're like 'hey somebody's here' and they go running up to the gate like 'hey pet me.' Well they didn't get pet this time, they got shot."


Leander Police are calling it “an unfortunate incident.” 

“No officer wakes up and gets dressed and goes to work and wants to kill someone's dog,” said Partin.



The officer who shot Vinny is still on active duty. This case is under administrative review, and Partin said they're evaluating whether or not to change current tactics.



To help pay for Vinny’s veterinarian bills, a non-profit organization called “Georgetown Animal Outreach” is collecting donations.
If you would like to make a donation, click here.


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## Gwenhwyfair

The problem here is a bad cop (or a cop that makes mistakes) seriously messes with people's lives. This is *not* like a waiter serving you the wrong order at a restaurant.

Secondly, *no one* is expecting police officers to be perfect all the time** the problem is this 'oh well, so what, no big deal' attitude *after* the incident/mistake has happened.

People who are married to a PO or a PO themselves forget what it's like to be so vunerable. They don't get it because usually they don't have to deal with situations like this, they have a certain immunity being a part of the LE community and cannot empathize with innocent people who have been wronged.

Most people get up and go to work, day in and day out. They abide by the law, they play by the rules, they aren't called 'heros' for going into the bank and being a teller, or the guy who mows the lawns, or the nurse at your Dr.s office. Nope their just average people who do all the things that help community and society hum along. The least the LE could do is give a darn when a PO makes a BIG mistake and ends up shooting an innocent families pet and stop with dismissive attitude of 'oh mistakes happen' or somehow try to fault the family.

(**but I must say mistakes of this magnitude would have you fired out of your private sector job before you could get your I.D. badge in the door the next morning)


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> Is it possible that he banged on the front door, heard people in there, but no one came to answer the door? So he went around back to see if there were people in the back yard?
> 
> I mean, if the people inside the house did not hear him at the door, then they will believe that he never tried the front door.
> 
> If a cop goes in my back yard, then there is no question that he will know that there are GSDs back there. They bark. They will be barking before he gets out of his car. So no way could he get through the gate without knowing that there are shepherds out back.
> 
> The way this sounds, the dog went back inside and was bleeding inside. I wonder if the dog has a doggy door to the back yard. And can go in and out on its own. I mean, the owner did not seem to know which dogs were inside and which were outside. I wonder if the cop got to the gate and did not hear any dogs, did not realize there were dogs, opened the gate and was totally surprised by the dog after he was already in the back yard.
> 
> In no way is this the fault of the dog-owners. They are understandably upset about what happened. But for those of us who do not own this dog, I think we should be able to step back and see it from a more neutral point of view.
> 
> I really don't know what the proper procedure is if no one shows up at the door, but they appear to be home. If all a criminal needs to do to avoid a warrant is fail to open the door, then why is anyone sitting in prison?



This is all good and everything except the warrant had a different town on it, that is not something to look past.


----------



## llombardo

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The problem here is a bad cop (or a cop that makes mistakes) seriously messes with people's lives. This is *not* like a waiter serving you the wrong order at a restaurant.
> 
> Secondly, *no one* is expecting police officers to be perfect all the time** the problem is this 'oh well, so what, no big deal' attitude *after* the incident/mistake has happened.
> 
> People who are married to a PO or a PO themselves forget what it's like to be so vunerable. They don't get it because usually they don't have to deal with situations like this, they have a certain immunity being a part of the LE community and cannot empathize with innocent people who have been wronged.
> 
> Most people get up and go to work, day in and day out. They abide by the law, they play by the rules, they aren't called 'heros' for going into the bank and being a teller, or the guy who mows the lawns, or the nurse at your Dr.s office. Nope their just average people who do all the things that help community and society hum along. The least the LE could do is give a darn when a PO makes a BIG mistake and ends up shooting an innocent families pet and stop with dismissive attitude of 'oh mistakes happen' or somehow try to fault the family.
> 
> (**but I must say mistakes of this magnitude would have you fired out of your private sector job before you could get your I.D. badge in the door the next morning)


Very well said. I agree that I'm more angry that they don't acknowledge they are wrong. If they would for just once admit they made a mistake, it would make a world of difference


----------



## selzer

And yet, it was a Liberty Hill police officer serving a warrant that had the last known address in the database, the house in question. Weird. We can speculate that they went to the address listed and they found no one, so they went to the last known address in their database? 

Expired Vehicle Registration? Really? That's a crime? I know if you are driving around in a vehicle with expired plates or registration that will net you a ticket. Usually driving with expired plates. But it sounds, from that article that it was a traffic violation? Still, if a cop drives up to a crack house to serve a warrant for parking tickets, and they start shooting at him, he can shoot back. 

So if a GSD is charging at a police officer, then they will most likely shoot. 

Now the guy trains GSDs, has therapy dogs and service dogs. Well we are all GSD trainers aren't we? I trained a therapy dog. No service dog. After spending three hours in the yard Monday mowing, I came in collapsed on the bed, and told Babsy to go and get me a diet coke. I begged her to go and get me a diet coke. I pleaded with her to go and get me one. She's hopeless. No chance at being a service dog. 

Lots of dogs have a thing for people in uniforms. They can be fine with ordinary people showing up, but there is something about the mailman or a police officer, especially if the police officer is anxious. 

Maybe the GSD thought the guy was a threat. The owners did not see what the cop saw. Of course the owners would say Vinnie is sweet and wonderful all the time to everybody. Of course the cop is going to say it was growling and charging at him. What does the neighbor say? The neighbor did sit in the seat holding the dog on the way to the vet -- did I get that right? 

If it was me, I would let my neighbor drive and I would hold the dog, but maybe he didn't have a license. Who knows? But I will say that when Frodo got himself run over by a truck and his front leg shattered and swollen in pain, my neighbor who the dog usually hated helped carry him to his car as he drove me to the vet with him. We had him in the bottom of a dog crate and his head was bobbing up and down by Matt's face. Matt's hands were both holding the crate, and I was on the other end. The dog never aggressed toward Matt, though he was a very aggressive dog. 

So I really don't know who is right and who is wrong. 

It sounds like the officer was instructed to go to that address. 

Do cops go in back yards? 

Well, the one and only time I saw a cop in my neighborhood, state boy, he was looking for someone who put their car in my neighbor's ditch. He went to their house, they were not home. He walked all the way around their house checking doors and windows. 

He went to the house on the other side of me and did the same. 

He did not go into my back yard, I had fences and no easy access. So he came to my front door and heard the chorus of my dogs. It was winter and they were inside. I told him I didn't see or hear anything. He peered into my house, like I was hiding the people. But I told him that the dogs would let me know. 

Finally, I told the dogs ENOUGH! and you could hear a pin drop. The officer was impressed, and left, not sure if he was convinced the people weren't there though.

But they DO go into back yards. They do go to back doors. 

And I am not surprised that their method of dealing with a charging dog is to shoot. 

Mostly it is he said, she said. The owners seem respectable people that appear to be an injured party with no reason to lie. And the officer seems to have gotten the right information, and was doing his job. 

A dozen or so years ago, a cop in Geneva, Ohio did kill a dog while trying to serve a warrant at the wrong address in a trailer park. The dog was chained out front of the trailer. The cop then went to his car and came back with a lock cutter and cut the dog's chain. The dog was a pit bull. He was seen. There were witnesses. He changed his story to include that it was no life for a dog. But he was dismissed over it. And there was a previous incident involving that officer and a dog.

I think that it is possible that the people that manage this police officer will actually look at all the facts in the case and do the right thing. Maybe not. But it actually happened, even in a place like Ashtabula County, Ohio.


----------



## doggiedad

does being at the wrong house mean anything? walking into a 
yard without knowing if a dog is there, does that mean anything?



Mrs.K said:


> So SICK of this! When are they going to be held accountable for their actions?





Swifty said:


> What do you mean? This is truly an unfortunate story but dogs running toward him can certainly be scary enough for him to be afraid for his life.


----------



## Dainerra

the problem is, the officer likely had no way of knowing that he was at the wrong house. I know one officer who was killed in the line of duty. To his knowledge he was pulling someone over because their taillight was out. 
Turns out that the man was a wanted fugetive.
Officer James Walter Sell, Gassville Police Department, Arkansas

Every time someone says "my dog is friendly" I take it with a grain of salt. Yes, this family knew their dog was friendly but how would the officer know that? I can tell you that, if you show up at my house, you're going to be assuming that the dog is NOT friendly. Especially if you aren't experienced in handling big dogs. 
One of the things that make it MORE likely for the cop to be afraid for his life from the dog? Many 'bad guys' train dogs as distractions. It doesn't matter if the dog will actually bite; it simply needs to distract the cops' attention long enough for Bad Guy to get the jump on him. 
It's sorry that the dog was shot. And likely the officer feels horrible but hindsight is 20/20. You need to react to a potentially life threatening situation in the heat of the moment. A split second hesitation can mean the difference between coming home alive and not coming home at all.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Who within the PD is at fault is *not* our problem *nor* the fault of innocent people who have incidents like this occur.

This was a serious mistake and should be addressed as such and if it means a officer is reprimanded or fired and or a dispatcher fired, so be it. People get fired for making much lessor mistakes in the private sector all the time. Had I screwed up a combat sat coms emergency shipment to Iraq I would have been out on my behind so fast....but that was the private sector (contractor).

I think gov't employees get way too much leniency in general. I think they should be compensated fairly and be held to high standards of performance especially when it comes to public safety.


----------



## Ceasar

I agree with Gwen. I AM a state employee and I think that gov employees in general are way to lenient and expect exemption from protocols, laws and regulations that everyone ELSE is held to. 

For me, the issue is accountability. It's not uncommon for criminally active people to have attack dogs on their premises. So PO's who need to enforce the law have that horrible decision to make and I don't envy them for it. Sometimes dogs do have to be shot. Horrible, but true. The anger in this comes from the the following:
-- This wasn't an under cover drug bust -- this was a non-moving violation issuance, correct??? ...
-- There was address misinformation. The ability to read shouldn't be considered a BONUS when hiring someone.
-- A stranger was in his back yard.... again this was NOT a 15 man UC narc bust. 

And for this NONSENSE ... a dog got shot. There is unmistakable idiocy there. And the salt in the wound of an injured dog protecting his family is that they tried to cover it up and portray a dangerous situation for the officer because Vinny was "ADVANCING VERY QUICKLY..." UMMMM I BET HE WAS -- A*HOLE --YOU WERE IN HIS YARD. 

Ceasar is a meatball. He accepts my neighbors, friends, etc into my house. But if someone came into the yard who he didn't know, THAT IS... IF THEY *GOT INTO* THE YARD... he too would advance very quickly, and quite possibly bite them. 

Absurd. It's theater of the incompetent and someone's family pet got caught in the middle of it. The officer should be held accountable. And I too hope that these people get slit throat legal representation. 

Do what you want to me, call me what you choose to, but DO NOT mess with my animals. Period. End of sentence. I have immediate family and friends in law enforcement and I'd STILL want someone's jewels on a platter.


----------



## dpaz

selzer said:


> This is just flat out wrong. Well for the most part. A Law Enforcement Officer can only ACT once a LAW has been broken. So, they are not heroes who keep up safe from criminals. They are people who come after a crime has been committed, investigate it, and try to collect enough evidence to find the responsible individual and present him and the evidence against him to the court system.
> 
> Generally, a negligent officer is more likely to get himself killed than anyone else, but yes, they may make serious mistakes.
> 
> But let's say this was the right house. If they were committing crimes in this house, let's say it was a meth-house. Do you think that he should have shot at a pair of charging GSDs if it was a crack house or meth house?
> 
> Probably if it was a drug house, there would have been more than one officer, but the dog would probably still have been shot, and most of us would say, "Oh well." If you are there producing drugs and selling them, and your dog is charging at the cops it has to go down.
> 
> It is true that a cop has to shoot/kill the dog, because he has to eliminate the obstacle before the next obstacle eliminates him. People do shoot at cops. And yes, domestic violence can be the most dangerous to officers, so you do not have to live in a ghetto or be making meth to have an officer dispatched to your neighborhood, and to have that officer thinking about his own safety first.
> 
> A dead cop is of no use to no one. If a police officer takes the time to reach for non-fatal methods of dealing with a charging dog, and loses time or focus, and is shot and killed because he was trying to be kinder and gentler to the dog, then he is dead, over, he is a negligent cop. He got himself killed. His attention on a charging dog cost him everything he had. And no one is better off for it.
> 
> It is a rare occurance, and I really do not think we should spend tons of money trying to train officers to prevent the situation, and possibly make officers less safe in the process.
> 
> As for nurses and doctors being perfect. Well they aren't point blank. Maybe they try to be. Yes, lives to depend on it, but the fact is, they too are human beings.
> 
> I think that for many of us, trying to be perfect makes us make more mistakes and prevents us from doing our best job. It is far better to do your best every day than to try to be perfect.
> 
> LEOs will NEVER manage perfection and neither will nurses or doctors. All trying to be perfect will do, will increase their constant stress level which will take its toll on their minds and bodies, and it will effect their decisions. Sorry. But that is how I see it.
> 
> This was a tragic mistake, but a mistake, and probably an honest mistake at that.
> 
> I am hearing from the we-don't-have-enough-info crowd, that was totally silent on other issues not involving police officers. The only people out there they seem to care about are cops, and that's probably because they are suffering under the dellusion that cops are perfect. But we really don't need to hear the rest of the story, we do not need to hear the cop's side to the story. Not really. These people on face book _look_ like us, kids have a tree house, guy is lying next to his GSD, nice middle-class people who we identify with, we can believe them. Not like the lower class black woman who was spouting profanities at the reporter and setting her dogs on them. If this cop would have come and shot her dog, the people here would have recognized that her address could easily be mistaken for the right one, that the dogs probably were going to attack him, that she deserved whatever she got with or without the rest of the story.
> 
> Whatever, it still ticks me off. Partly because people tend to band together for people that are like they are, and against people who they perceive as lower than themselves. And partly because people expect everyone else to be pefect in every situation. They do not allow for a woman's grief and fatigue marring her judgement, or a cop's feeling of possible danger making him react as he would if he was a the right address.
> 
> Maybe this particular cop shouldn't be a cop. If that is the case, and most likely, this incident will reflect poorly on his next performance review, he will most likely be encouraged to find other work, or placed in a different position, most likely. I say this because incidents like this are really rare. If people just covered up and ignored these situations, then we would have dogs shot ALL THE TIME. There would be hundreds of dogs shot each year, not half a dozen.


A good LEO puts his life on the line to apprehend dangerous criminals, thus protecting society from whatever crimes they would commit in the future. In some cases, they arrive while the crime is in progress and stop it before things get too ugly, again at their own peril. Make no mistake, good LEOs are heroes.

I will not argue that a negligent LEO would be putting himself in danger more than anyone else, and frankly, I have no problem with that part of the deal. It is evolution in action, and quite frankly it may mean he will remove himself from the police force before he hurts one of the people he is supposed to protect. I have no sympathy for the willfully incompetent, only their victims.

I think people lose sight of the fact that the public at large is more important than anyone in the police force. Any LEO who does not agree is in the wrong profession, because his sole purpose is to protect and serve that public. It is the only reason he is entrusted with a gun, and quite frankly, it is the only reason why people such as myself accept their authority or afford them any respect. The moment an LEO forgets his place--that of a public servant--he has outlived his usefulness to society. Heroes are only heroes because they are relatively selfless.

John Rambo running around back without doing any reconnaissance--because he knows he can just shoot anything that gets in his way--does not fit the bill. Territorial dogs are not rare. In fact, it seems like every other house has a barking dog. He knew there could have been a dog. He did not care. He had a (petty) warrant to serve, and if that means firing rounds at a family pet in the middle of a residential neighborhood, so be it. Forget intelligence gathering. That is for pansies, and he is too busy anyway. He was in full-on, self-righteous "predator" mode, NOT "protect and serve" mode. He forgot his place.


----------



## Fade2Black

The good news from the https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForVinny?ref=ts&fref=ts Justice For Vinny facebook page. 

Vinny woke up in great spirits today....He greeted the day with his tail thumping wildly and wanting to play.
For the first time since his injury he bounded up on my bed and stole my pillow....
welcome back my Mini Vinny
Now I just need to figure out how to keep him down so the wound will heal

The bad news is this lying trigger happy cop still is on duty carrying a weapon....Someone posted earlier about computer generated tickets. That are now in use in some areas. This is why. Moron cops like Officer Woodson Blase (who shot Vinny) that can't even get simple violations correct... I Know it's hard to do. But it would be interesting to see if there are any civilian complaints-lawsuits against this cop......

Leander 10-year-old's traffic ticket dismissed | kvue.com Austin


by REBEKAH HOOD / KVUE.com and Associated Press
Follow: @RebekahH_KVUE kvue.com
Posted on June 6, 2011 at 2:18 PM
Updated Monday, Jun 6 at 2:39 PM 





KVUE News has learned a Leander municipal court has dismissed the traffic ticket issued to a 10-year-old boy last week. 
The fourth-grade student was ticketed May 31 after being picked up from school by his 19-year-old aunt. Somewhere in the 300 block of West Street in Leander, their car was pulled over.

"My seat belt was behind my back instead of over my shoulder," Marshal told KVUE last week.
A Leander police officer gave Marshal a ticket for improper use of a seat belt.
According to the Associated Press, court records show the officer who wrote the ticket -- Officer Woodson Blase -- filed a request for dismissal a day after issuing the ticket. 
Blase reportedly wrote that the request was for erroneous issuance to underage violator. The ticket was then dismissed by the municipal court on Thursday, June 2.
Texas law says a person must be at least 15 years old to commit such an offense. If a child is not properly secured by a seat belt, the adult in the car would be at fault. The boy's aunt did not get a ticket.


----------



## mandiah89

Fade2Black said:


> The good news from the https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForVinny?ref=ts&fref=ts Justice For Vinny facebook page.
> 
> Vinny woke up in great spirits today....He greeted the day with his tail thumping wildly and wanting to play.
> For the first time since his injury he bounded up on my bed and stole my pillow....
> welcome back my Mini Vinny
> Now I just need to figure out how to keep him down so the wound will heal
> 
> The bad news is this lying trigger happy cop still is on duty carrying a weapon....Someone posted earlier about computer generated tickets. That are now in use in some areas. This is why. Moron cops like Officer Woodson Blase (who shot Vinny) that can't even get simple violations correct... I Know it's hard to do. But it would be interesting to see if there are any civilian complaints-lawsuits against this cop......
> 
> Leander 10-year-old's traffic ticket dismissed | kvue.com Austin
> 
> 
> by REBEKAH HOOD / KVUE.com and Associated Press
> Follow: @RebekahH_KVUE kvue.com
> Posted on June 6, 2011 at 2:18 PM
> Updated Monday, Jun 6 at 2:39 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KVUE News has learned a Leander municipal court has dismissed the traffic ticket issued to a 10-year-old boy last week.
> The fourth-grade student was ticketed May 31 after being picked up from school by his 19-year-old aunt. Somewhere in the 300 block of West Street in Leander, their car was pulled over.
> 
> "My seat belt was behind my back instead of over my shoulder," Marshal told KVUE last week.
> A Leander police officer gave Marshal a ticket for improper use of a seat belt.
> According to the Associated Press, court records show the officer who wrote the ticket -- Officer Woodson Blase -- filed a request for dismissal a day after issuing the ticket.
> Blase reportedly wrote that the request was for erroneous issuance to underage violator. The ticket was then dismissed by the municipal court on Thursday, June 2.
> Texas law says a person must be at least 15 years old to commit such an offense. If a child is not properly secured by a seat belt, the adult in the car would be at fault. The boy's aunt did not get a ticket.


This cop sounds like a real winner


----------



## Dainerra

why does everyone keep saying that the cop "can't even read" 

There is nothing to say that he went to the wrong house because he misread the paperwork. The address was listed as belonging to the person that he was looking for. Perhaps they used to live there and moved. Perhaps they gave a false address because they knew that one day the cops might come looking for them. It could even be that someone at the DMV typed in an address wrong. 
Either way, it isn't the cops fault that the address is wrong on the paperwork. He was doing his job in good faith when he encountered a potentially dangerous situation.


----------



## Fade2Black

Dainerra said:


> why does everyone keep saying that the cop "can't even read"
> 
> There is nothing to say that he went to the wrong house because he misread the paperwork. The address was listed as belonging to the person that he was looking for. Perhaps they used to live there and moved. Perhaps they gave a false address because they knew that one day the cops might come looking for them. It could even be that someone at the DMV typed in an address wrong.
> Either way, it isn't the cops fault that the address is wrong on the paperwork. He was doing his job in good faith when he encountered a potentially dangerous situation.



I posted this question on the Justice For Vinny site. Asked if anyone has a copy of the actual warrant. I am hoping he answers and can at least clear that part up. There is a Libertarian leaning political site "Free Republic" Leander police officer shoots dog at wrong house the story was posted on. Now maby the posters are wrong. I don't know for sure. But posters in general there seem to have a good track record at getting things correct. Again I don't know for sure but from what they are posting it sounds (to me at least). That the warrant had the correct address and Officer Woodson Blase went to the wrong house. Someone had posted that Vinny's house doesn't even have a number in the front.......

I still don't think Vinny should have been shot. But going to Vinny's house if that's what the address on the warrant was, does cast the officer in a little better light then him having the correct address on the warrant and going to the wrong house. If that's the case he should have been fired on the spot...

(edit) If anyone reads through the comments. A lot of valid points are made about what the officer did and should have done and didn't....




dpaz said:


> John Rambo running around back without doing any reconnaissance--because he knows he can just shoot anything that gets in his way--does not fit the bill. Territorial dogs are not rare. In fact, it seems like every other house has a barking dog. He knew there could have been a dog. He did not care. He had a (petty) warrant to serve, and if that means firing rounds at a family pet in the middle of a residential neighborhood, so be it. Forget intelligence gathering. That is for pansies, and he is too busy anyway. He was in full-on, self-righteous "predator" mode, NOT "protect and serve" mode. He forgot his place.


This might be a generalization but from Woodson Blase Linkedin page Woodson Blase | LinkedIn you could make that assumption calling him a "Rambo" (along with giving a ten year old a seat belt ticket) He was a Marine sergeant in the military 7 years one month. A police officer 5 years 3 months. At the very least he is well trained in arms and can handle them. Also from being in combat he should be well versed in recon and not rush into things. This makes me doubt his version even more. He should be an expert marksman (or pretty good). The fact he fired 3 shots and only struck Vinny one time tells me as soon as he saw the dog(S) he fired. Missing two out of three times to me at least says the GSD was a good distance away. If he was fairy close the officer isn't missing two times.....


----------



## Dainerra

sadly, I've seen what passes for marksmenship in most police departments. In the story about the officer killed here that I posted earlier, over a dozen officers had the guy surrounded and emptied their clips and only 4 bullets even hit the car he was in


----------



## llombardo

Dainerra said:


> why does everyone keep saying that the cop "can't even read"


The way I took it is that the police officer went to the wrong house...meaning the house address did not match the warrant, which would mean he can't read.


----------



## Fade2Black

llombardo said:


> The way I took it is that the police officer went to the wrong house...meaning the house address did not match the warrant, which would mean he can't read.



This officer besides being trigger happy is a Stone Cold IDIOT. Like the character "Tommy" in the Who's great same titled album. The officer is def dumb and blind. He can't even play pinball but he sure can shoot at friendly dogs with a terminal 6 year old in the area at the wrong address........

Central Texas dog shot by police officer after warrant mix-up | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth

>>>>The address on the warrant is in Cedar Park, not Liberty Hill where the Simmons (Vinny) have lived for nine years. However, Leander Police say their database shows Simpson’s last known address as the same one where the Simmons live.<<<<

If the warrant has one address on it how can you legally go to a completely different address to serve that warrant?? Shouldn't they have gotten that straight before they rushed into things?? There was no hurry. This is for a friggin minor vehicle registration non payment. Not some dangerous criminal. If you go to a different address should you not use more caution especially if you aren't at the front door and the address doesn't match?? There are plenty of ways to find out who lives at what address. You can easily check the property tax record for instance.....


Now the bad news just from Vinny's site posted an hour or so ago....... "Vinny was fighting for his life today. He actually had the surgery to have the bullet removed."


----------



## Courtney

This thread has offically crashed & burned. Wow....


----------



## selzer

I hope Vinney makes it. 

I am not going to lose sleep over this incident, which even if the cop was an illiterate Rambo, it is still such a rarity, that I might as well lose sleep over all the thunder storms that are coming my way in the next week. I am sure that the odds of my losing a dog to lightning are a LOT higher than losing my dog to a cop who got the address wrong. 

And the way the weather is in NE Ohio, it's going to be sleepless in Denmark, if I want to worry myself to death. 

The shooting itself is none of my business. Sorry. If the dog's owners want to sue the police department for negligently shooting their dog, then they should go ahead and get a lawyer and file suit. Otherwise, let the police department look into the way the guy used his weapon.


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> I hope Vinney makes it.
> 
> I am not going to lose sleep over this incident, which even if the cop was an illiterate Rambo, it is still such a rarity, that I might as well lose sleep over all the thunder storms that are coming my way in the next week. I am sure that the odds of my losing a dog to lightning are a LOT higher than losing my dog to a cop who got the address wrong.
> 
> And the way the weather is in NE Ohio, it's going to be sleepless in Denmark, if I want to worry myself to death.
> 
> The shooting itself is none of my business. Sorry. If the dog's owners want to sue the police department for negligently shooting their dog, then they should go ahead and get a lawyer and file suit. Otherwise, let the police department look into the way the guy used his weapon.


Its not as rare as we would like to think..check out a new thread that was just started by a former police officer. 2nd GSD shot by police this week. That one didn't make it While you might not lose sleep over it, it is something to think about, especially anyone that has a yard with dogs and police officers where they live.


----------



## selzer

llombardo said:


> Its not as rare as we would like to think..check out a new thread that was just started by a former police officer. 2nd GSD shot by police this week. That one didn't make it While you might not lose sleep over it, it is something to think about, especially anyone that has a yard with dogs and police officers where they live.


Why don't you do a tally, for the last ten years, all over the country. It is just not that common. I can remember a handful of cases over the course of a decade. That really isn't that bad.


----------



## LifeofRiley

selzer said:


> Why don't you do a tally, for the last ten years, all over the country. It is just not that common. I can remember a handful of cases over the course of a decade. That really isn't that bad.


Unless it is your dog!

Really, Selzer, the bigger problem here is the way the police departments have responded to these sort of incidents. Hiding behind a, "it is policy" statement is very disturbing to me. Based on these statements by the PD, I suspect this happens more than we know!!!!


----------



## Fade2Black

Half of intentional shootings by police involve dogs, study says | Local News | The Seattle Times

(part of that article) There has never been a documented case of a dog killing a police officer.
The same can't be said for police killing dogs.
Every year, hundreds — if not thousands — of animals, mostly canines, are killed by police or animal-control officers. According to the National Canine Research Council, up to half of the intentional shootings by police involve dogs.
Sometimes, the animals have been injured and need to be put out of their misery. Sometimes, they are vicious and killed for reasons of public or officer safety.
But mostly, they die tragically and needlessly, victims of misunderstanding, prejudice or simple convenience, according to animal-rights and behavior experts.


----------



## Fade2Black

selzer said:


> Why don't you do a tally, for the last ten years, all over the country. It is just not that common. I can remember a handful of cases over the course of a decade. That really isn't that bad.



Type in "Police shooting dogs statistics" on a google search and it comes back with 22,400,000 results. I know there are repeats of the same article. Results are over more then one year. Others are justified. I respect your opinion but I think you are 100% wrong....

https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy...0,d.dmQ&fp=fca19c058ec78b69&biw=1920&bih=1041


----------



## selzer

Fade2Black said:


> Type in "Police shooting dogs statistics" on a google search and it comes back with 22,400,000 results. I know there are repeats of the same article. Results are over more then one year. Others are justified. I respect your opinion but I think you are 100% wrong....
> 
> https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy...0,d.dmQ&fp=fca19c058ec78b69&biw=1920&bih=1041


That just means there are people who care about dogs and respond to those incidents very quickly. It is not a statistic. 

What I want to see is a statistic that shows how many dogs are killed by cops, when the dogs' owners are not doing anything like sicking the dogs aon the cops or shooting at them. 

I know that if the cops have to go into a compound, like waco, they will take out (kill) the dogs. 

I just don't hear about it that often, and they can't cover up an ordinary citizen's dog being mistakingly shot.


----------



## selzer

LifeofRiley said:


> Unless it is your dog!
> 
> Really, Selzer, the bigger problem here is the way the police departments have responded to these sort of incidents. Hiding behind a, "it is policy" statement is very disturbing to me. Based on these statements by the PD, I suspect this happens more than we know!!!!


I see cops all the time. I really do not worry about them killing my dogs. Sorry. I had Babs loose walking next to me, when a police officer ran up, it was after midnight, and I reached out to grab my dog's collar. He dodged us and kept going. He came back 20 minutes later, and apologized for scaring my dog. He didn't scare my dog. He scared me a little, but no harm, no foul. 

They are not all like that. But I would bet there are a thousand cops out there like that to every one that might shoot a dog needlessly.


----------



## LifeofRiley

selzer said:


> I see cops all the time. I really do not worry about them killing my dogs. Sorry. I had Babs loose walking next to me, when a police officer ran up, it was after midnight, and I reached out to grab my dog's collar. He dodged us and kept going. He came back 20 minutes later, and apologized for scaring my dog. He didn't scare my dog. He scared me a little, but no harm, no foul.
> 
> *They are not all like that*. But I would bet there are a thousand cops out there like that to every one that might shoot a dog needlessly.


No one said that all cops were like that! I do not worry about my dog either because everyone in my neighborhood (including the local patrol) knows my dog! 

But, that is not the issue at hand!!! The issue at hand is the general policy Police Departments seem to have to shoot first, ask questions later when it comes to dogs! That is a wrong-headed policy since most dogs are not going to attack and could be otherwise handled. You, yourself, have suggested as much in other threads.


----------



## selzer

LifeofRiley said:


> No one said that all cops were like that! I do not worry about my dog either because everyone in my neighborhood (including the local patrol) knows my dog!
> 
> But, that is not the issue at hand!!! The issue at hand is the general policy Police Departments seem to have to shoot first, ask questions later when it comes to dogs! That is a wrong-headed policy since most dogs are not going to attack and could be otherwise handled. You, yourself, have suggested as much in other threads.


My job is not to go into dangerous situations where people will have aggressive dogs and will fight with me and try to kill me if necessary. The dogs I meet are looking to attack my dog maybe, or not to attack at all. I am not walking into someone's yard or onto their porch.

It is a different ball of wax when it comes to cops. They cannot serve and protect if they are dead. Sorry. They need to neutralize a threat, quickly, so that they can use their energy to assure that they are safe. If they are at a suspects home a and a dog is charging at them, then they should have a right to protect themselves.

It is true that domestic violence or ordinary traffic stops can get very ugly. 

Furthermore, if everyone expects the cops to KILL their dog if they are out running toward them, then, maybe not so many dogs will be killed. 

As for me and my house, we will protect our dogs by doing those things that make it unnecessary for a cop to feel like they need to fire their weapon. 

So far, in 44 years, no cops have shot any of my dogs. I would not be surprised at all that if I make it another 44 years, it doesn't happen in those years either.

If a dog is attacking me, I would expect passersby to try and help me. If a dog is attacking a cop, I think it is far less likely. But I doubt that the overall threat is the dog, it is what can happen to the cop in a situation while he is using all of his power trying to manage the dog.


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## LifeofRiley

selzer said:


> It is a different ball of wax when it comes to cops. They cannot serve and protect if they are dead. Sorry. They need to neutralize a threat, quickly, so that they can use their energy to assure that they are safe. If they are at a suspects home a and a dog is charging at them, then they should have a right to protect themselves.


This is a 'cop out' excuse for using deadly force against a dog. Yes, that was a deliberate use of words there.


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> What I want to see is a statistic that shows how many dogs are killed by cops, when the dogs' owners are not doing anything like sicking the dogs aon the cops or shooting at them.
> 
> .


You will never see these statistics because you and I aren't entitled to that. I know of two dogs shot and killed by the police. Both uncalled for. I will go a step further and say that the boxer was revenge on the officers part, because he used to be friends with the boxers owner and they had a falling out. Guess who was in the bar laughing about the dead dog? The Rott that was killed actually came at me one time when I was delivering pizza to its house, it was close and I was scared, but I didn't have a gun and I managed to escape without harm. And the first time they shot at the Rott they missed, it was about a month later that they returned and that time they got her..coincidence? I don't think so.


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## selzer

LifeofRiley said:


> This is a 'cop out' excuse for using deadly force against a dog. Yes, that was a deliberate use of words there.


Well, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I will keep my dogs as safe and I can keep them, and not worry about the other fraction of a percent chance that some cop will kill them.


----------



## selzer

llombardo said:


> You will never see these statistics because you and I aren't entitled to that. I know of two dogs shot and killed by the police. Both uncalled for. I will go a step further and say that the boxer was revenge on the officers part, because he used to be friends with the boxers owner and they had a falling out. Guess who was in the bar laughing about the dead dog? The Rott that was killed actually came at me one time when I was delivering pizza to its house, it was close and I was scared, but I didn't have a gun and I managed to escape without harm. And the first time they shot at the Rott they missed, it was about a month later that they returned and that time they got her..coincidence? I don't think so.


I just am not leaking with compassion for Rottweiler owners who habitually leave their dog loose to go after pizza delivery people or cops. 

I am sure I could probably tell as many bad-cop stories as the next person. But not a lot of cop kills dog stories. 

Of course the cops out here just tell you to shoot the dog yourself when you call about them.


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> Well, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I will keep my dogs as safe and I can keep them, and not worry about the other fraction of a percent chance that some cop will kill them.


But you can't guarantee it 100%. What if your not home? What if they get the wrong address? Will you accept a OOPS, I thought your dogs were getting out of the kennel and I was in danger? I will keep my dogs safe to, but we don't stand a chance when it comes to the law. Their word against ours..we will lose EVERY time and that is guaranteed.


----------



## llombardo

selzer said:


> I just am not leaking with compassion for Rottweiler owners who habitually leave their dog loose to go after pizza delivery people or cops.
> 
> I am sure I could probably tell as many bad-cop stories as the next person. But not a lot of cop kills dog stories.
> 
> Of course the cops out here just tell you to shoot the dog yourself when you call about them.


That is not what happened at all. That Rott was just protecting her yard and home. There was a fenced in yard and I walked in and went to the door. I was in the dogs yard and that was my mistake, just as the police were. The dog was never loose. If that dog bit me, it would have been completely my fault. The boxer was shot in his home.


----------



## selzer

llombardo said:


> That is not what happened at all. That Rott was just protecting her yard and home. There was a fenced in yard and I walked in and went to the door. I was in the dogs yard and that was my mistake, just as the police were. The dog was never loose. If that dog bit me, it would have been completely my fault. The boxer was shot in his home.


If people in that home asked you to deliver pizza, then they should not expect you to hang out at the front gate and hallooo toward the house. Sorry. It is up to them to ensure that people they ASK to come to their home will not be molested if they are ABLE to open the gate to get to the most obvious entrance. The homeowner was at fault. Sorry.


----------



## selzer

llombardo said:


> But you can't guarantee it 100%. What if your not home? What if they get the wrong address? Will you accept a OOPS, I thought your dogs were getting out of the kennel and I was in danger? I will keep my dogs safe to, but we don't stand a chance when it comes to the law. Their word against ours..we will lose EVERY time and that is guaranteed.


And if the lightning comes down and strikes my dog in its kennel and it dies, what do I do? Sue God???

I have a dog loose in my home right now. I am not there. If the cops go in there, she will most likely die. I will be devestated, angry, disgusted, my initial reaction will be to want to sue everyone from the sherriff to the Governor. But I hope that I will be able to look at it and say, "ok, it was an honest mistake." What amount of monetary compensation will make it ok? None. None will bring the dog back. 

And besides Babs, Jenna might go over the baby gate and go for the cops. She has a couple of puppies, and she's not particularly aggressive, but if cops just came in, she might go over the fence to get to them. And Odie. She has a couple of puppies too. If they killed Babs, Jenna, and Odie, that would literally kill me. But any one of those bitches could be legitimately threatening. Now if they killed the puppies, that would be a whole other story.


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## gsdsar

llombardo said:


> But you can't guarantee it 100%. What if your not home? What if they get the wrong address? Will you accept a OOPS, I thought your dogs were getting out of the kennel and I was in danger? I will keep my dogs safe to, but we don't stand a chance when it comes to the law. Their word against ours..we will lose EVERY time and that is guaranteed.


Not true. We had a dog brought to us after being shot during a legal raid on a house. Dog lost it leg. But lived. Owners sued and proved it was an unwarranted shot. They won. A very large settlement. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Nigel

Alright, I'm teaching my dog to shoot back. If only I can get him to stop chewing on the end of the barrel.


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## Fade2Black

gsdsar said:


> Not true. We had a dog brought to us after being shot during a legal raid on a house. Dog lost it leg. But lived. Owners sued and proved it was an unwarranted shot. They won. A very large settlement.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Those victories are few and far between. Were the officers fired though? I bet they were not. That's how it is around where I live. A payoff and the offending officers keep their job. Crazy story to follow about an off duty EHT cop who "commandeered" a motorists vehicle last year. Since the story broke this officer is still on the force . No other info has come out. I suspect a payout to the motorist in turn for dropping charges. Then the coverup. A bunch of us don't think this was a burglary but something that happened with someones wife or girlfriend......

Egg Harbor Township officer being investigated after chasing wrong vehicle into Linwood - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Egg Harbor Township

Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:00 am | _ Updated: 8:29 am, Wed Mar 14, 2012. _ By WALLACE McKELVEY Staff Writer 

An off-duty Egg Harbor Township police officer who commandeered a vehicle and chased a burglary suspect into Linwood last month is now the subject of an internal affairs investigation, officials say.

The vehicle he pursued turned out to be the wrong car.

Officer Kenneth Winkel commandeered a vehicle in Egg Harbor Township at about 11:40 p.m. Feb. 25 to pursue a man he suspected of attempted burglary, according to audio recordings and police reports obtained through the Open Public Records Act. No one would officially say where the vehicle was commandeered.

One of the men was dressed in only his underwear, but it’s unclear from the recordings whether the partially clothed man was the police officer or the suspect.

Winkel — an Egg Harbor Township resident — followed the perceived suspect, who was driving a Hyundai, across Poplar Avenue into Linwood before it stopped at the intersection of Van Sant and Wabash avenues. Linwood police determined the Hyundai was unrelated to the alleged crime and the driver was released.

In audio recordings obtained from Linwood Police, Egg Harbor Township dispatcher Bryan Gaviria informed an unidentified dispatcher from Somers Point, which handles calls for Linwood, of the chase.

Later in the conversation, Gaviria asked Somers Point to dispatch a K-9 unit to the scene, “because apparently he ran a quarter-mile in his underwear.” He added that Winkel was “not communicating very well.” 

Again, it was unclear which man was in his underwear.
“Believe they may have the wrong vehicle now,” Gaviria said. “He lost it.”
Lt. Robert Gray, of the EHT police, said the department is investigating an incident that “happened at an off-duty police officer’s house” on Feb. 25, although he declined to identify the officer involved or comment on the status of the investigation.

That information, he said, is part of an internal affairs investigation.
Winkel, a former Linwood police officer who was laid off last year, was hired by Egg Harbor Township in January. He did not respond to requests for comment.

Anthony Razzi, the EHT resident whose car was commandeered, declined to comment.

Linwood police Chief Robert James confirmed that one of the department’s officers stopped a car being pursued by an off-duty Egg Harbor Township police officer. “We don’t believe the car we stopped had any involvement in” the alleged burglary, he said.

Near the end of the conversation between the two dispatchers, Gaviria said police did not know where the suspect vehicle went.
“Believe they may still be in our town,” he said.


----------



## Fade2Black

selzer said:


> I hope Vinney makes it.
> 
> I am not going to lose sleep over this incident, which even if the cop was an illiterate Rambo, it is still such a rarity, that I might as well lose sleep over all the thunder storms that are coming my way in the next week. I am sure that the odds of my losing a dog to lightning are a LOT higher than losing my dog to a cop who got the address wrong.
> 
> And the way the weather is in NE Ohio, it's going to be sleepless in Denmark, if I want to worry myself to death.
> 
> The shooting itself is none of my business. Sorry. If the dog's owners want to sue the police department for negligently shooting their dog, then they should go ahead and get a lawyer and file suit. Otherwise, let the police department look into the way the guy used his weapon.



Some of us are more sensitive and worry about illiterate moron cops with or without our GSD's because we have had first hand experience with stupid uncaring moron cops who do stupid things with impunity because there are no repercussions to them. My little GSD thunderstorm.....

When my Father passed away in 94 and in between selling my house. Then having one built and moving my Mom in with me I would take my GSD Genesis and let him stay with her at her apartment for protection. I am coming over the Albany Ave bridge going into AC heading toward Ventnor City with my GSD in the back seat. As I get over the bridge and pass a funeral home I notice two cop cars in their front lot. They start to follow me. As I go down Ventnor ave I notice two other police cars get behind them. Finally a block from Mom's they pull me over in front of Penettea's auto repair (Annapolis Ave). I hear over their loudspeaker this is the AC Police. Turn off the car. Put the car key in your left hand and stick it out the driver side window. With your right hand open up the door. Get out place both hands on the key locked behind your head and walk backwards. As this is happening I am trying to leave both windows down enough so Genesis has air and won't die of heat stroke as its July. Lucky it was around 10am. Also trying to tie his leash around the center console just in case. As I am doing this which is in plain site of the Police they decide to draw their weapons behind the doors. I managed to hit the power locks. As this is going on two more police cars arrive and pull in front of my car facing it. So now there are six cop cars. I am thinking they got the wrong guy my GSD is gonna die from heat. The car had glass t tops that didn't help....

As I get the pat down (pretty sure the guns were put back in the holsters by now). They tell me you are being pulled over because we had a report from an ETH officer (they patrol west AC black horse pike) of a motorist fitting your description had a weapon (never mentioned what kind). The Idiot doing the talking then go's on to say the driver in question was driving a black Camaro and had long blond hair. I am saying WTF in my mind as I was driving a 10th Anniversary 79 Silver Firebird Trans Am and have long curly brown hair. I try saying look I don't want my GSD dying from heat let me take him out and then if you let me do that I will give you permission to search for anything you want. I then say I grew up with (...) an AC cop who lived down the street from Moms call him. They say we know (...) but don't care about the MFing dog and if he dies. If we have to we will shoot him ( he like dogs do had his nose out the cracked open window). Where is the weapon??/Want us to shoot him?? Trying to remain calm I am saying "there is NO weapon". They call the Police dispatch and say we have the suspect can you get the officer to come over and identify him. Dispatch calls back and says it wasn't an EHT officer. It was a motorist. The motorist said the car was speeding (gee. maby it's just me but don't ya think there is just a little difference?? how can ya possibly get it that wrong). There were some words mumbled by the Police. Like a groan. I said can I go now. Then the prick asks me was I speeding. I said no I wasn't. Finally the hand on my hands locked behind my head released. They just walked away no apology nothing. I rush over to my overheating GSD. Lucky he was ok and I was close to water at Moms. Later I got hold of my AC cop friend I grew up down the block with and also another AC cop friend. I was in a rage by then about what happened. I had enough sense not to threaten them even around my friends. But I wanted to know who the .... they were and what were their badge numbers and you are coming in with me when I file the complaint. They flat out said don't even waste your time. Nothing will happen. In fact you will just get them pissed and they and others will be looking for you. My cop friends then say look you know we aren't like that. This is just a job just like any other to us. There isn't anything we can do...


----------



## KZoppa

Wrong address or not, there's no reason for him to be entering the backyard. You don't just haul off and start shooting especially after seeing a swing set. You don't know!!! Posting certain signs, yes, can give off a dangerous dog vibe like Beware of Dog and signs such as that but Dog on Premises signs are fine because they don't imply the dog is dangerous. They simply state there is a dog on the property. This kind of thing happens way too often and is absolutely uncalled for. Cops are getting away with being "dirty" and we're always going to be in the wrong because of it. Serving a warrant is NEVER done alone. That's for safety. Serving a warrant is always done at the very least in pairs because should the person of interest decide to be violent, one cop isn't likely to be able to handle that kind of situation alone.


----------



## llombardo

This is not even about monetary value. If my dog was shot in an uncalled for situation, I would never sue for money, but you can bet I won't stop until the officer doesn't have a job. The money does not matter and shouldn't matter to someone that lost a pet, that is not justice.


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## wdkiser

dpaz said:


> Until I hear something to this effect about that officer, he is a criminal menace in my mind.


Guilty until proven innocent??


----------



## selzer

KZoppa said:


> Wrong address or not, there's no reason for him to be entering the backyard. You don't just haul off and start shooting especially after seeing a swing set. You don't know!!! Posting certain signs, yes, can give off a dangerous dog vibe like Beware of Dog and signs such as that but Dog on Premises signs are fine because they don't imply the dog is dangerous. They simply state there is a dog on the property. This kind of thing happens way too often and is absolutely uncalled for. Cops are getting away with being "dirty" and we're always going to be in the wrong because of it. Serving a warrant is NEVER done alone. That's for safety. Serving a warrant is always done at the very least in pairs because should the person of interest decide to be violent, one cop isn't likely to be able to handle that kind of situation alone.


Well now, not every place in the country has enough money or cops to have pairs of them running to serve each warrant. They wouldn't get a chance to do much protecting and serving that way. And, our sherriff's department was so broke when their sales tax went down the last time, they said they would have only one deputy on duty for the entire county at night. And they dumped the dogs. Somehow, I do not think either of those things actually completely happened, but their are not two officers deployed to serve each warrant around here. 

Criminals have kids, and they have younger siblings, and sometimes those kids have swing sets in their back yard. If a swing set will turn an officer into a sitting duck, every criminal would put one in his back yard.


----------



## selzer

Fade2Black said:


> Some of us are more sensitive and worry about illiterate moron cops with or without our GSD's because we have had first hand experience with stupid uncaring moron cops who do stupid things with impunity because there are no repercussions to them. My little GSD thunderstorm.....
> 
> When my Father passed away in 94 and in between selling my house. Then having one built and moving my Mom in with me I would take my GSD Genesis and let him stay with her at her apartment for protection. I am coming over the Albany Ave bridge going into AC heading toward Ventnor City with my GSD in the back seat. As I get over the bridge and pass a funeral home I notice two cop cars in their front lot. They start to follow me. As I go down Ventnor ave I notice two other police cars get behind them. Finally a block from Mom's they pull me over in front of Penettea's auto repair (Annapolis Ave). I hear over their loudspeaker this is the AC Police. Turn off the car. Put the car key in your left hand and stick it out the driver side window. With your right hand open up the door. Get out place both hands on the key locked behind your head and walk backwards. As this is happening I am trying to leave both windows down enough so Genesis has air and won't die of heat stroke as its July. Lucky it was around 10am. Also trying to tie his leash around the center console just in case. As I am doing this which is in plain site of the Police they decide to draw their weapons behind the doors. I managed to hit the power locks. As this is going on two more police cars arrive and pull in front of my car facing it. So now there are six cop cars. I am thinking they got the wrong guy my GSD is gonna die from heat. The car had glass t tops that didn't help....
> 
> As I get the pat down (pretty sure the guns were put back in the holsters by now). They tell me you are being pulled over because we had a report from an ETH officer (they patrol west AC black horse pike) of a motorist fitting your description had a weapon (never mentioned what kind). The Idiot doing the talking then go's on to say the driver in question was driving a black Camaro and had long blond hair. I am saying WTF in my mind as I was driving a 10th Anniversary 79 Silver Firebird Trans Am and have long curly brown hair. I try saying look I don't want my GSD dying from heat let me take him out and then if you let me do that I will give you permission to search for anything you want. I then say I grew up with (...) an AC cop who lived down the street from Moms call him. They say we know (...) but don't care about the MFing dog and if he dies. If we have to we will shoot him ( he like dogs do had his nose out the cracked open window). Where is the weapon??/Want us to shoot him?? Trying to remain calm I am saying "there is NO weapon". They call the Police dispatch and say we have the suspect can you get the officer to come over and identify him. Dispatch calls back and says it wasn't an EHT officer. It was a motorist. The motorist said the car was speeding (gee. maby it's just me but don't ya think there is just a little difference?? how can ya possibly get it that wrong). There were some words mumbled by the Police. Like a groan. I said can I go now. Then the prick asks me was I speeding. I said no I wasn't. Finally the hand on my hands locked behind my head released. They just walked away no apology nothing. I rush over to my overheating GSD. Lucky he was ok and I was close to water at Moms. Later I got hold of my AC cop friend I grew up down the block with and also another AC cop friend. I was in a rage by then about what happened. I had enough sense not to threaten them even around my friends. But I wanted to know who the .... they were and what were their badge numbers and you are coming in with me when I file the complaint. They flat out said don't even waste your time. Nothing will happen. In fact you will just get them pissed and they and others will be looking for you. My cop friends then say look you know we aren't like that. This is just a job just like any other to us. There isn't anything we can do...


Wow, got a bit of a chip on your shoulder, huh? 

Makes my murdered uncle, that I blame the cops for sound downright petty.


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## Chicagocanine

This is sad, I hope the dog will be ok.
The website says the dogs that were shot at were both therapy dogs. They also have a service dog that could have been shot (was in the house I guess). The owner is a professional dog trainer according to their info.


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## selzer

Of course any dog that can pass Rally Novice can pass the TDI. I've done it. It is really just a glorified CGC. It does not mean that the dog will not be territorial at home.


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## mharrisonjr26

That situation is wrong and very unfortunate


----------



## Mrs.K

Wasn't the dog pts'ed because the bill was like 7000 dollars and once the department heard what sum they had to cough up they opted out on their promise to pay the bill, oh wait, that is the other case of another unnecessary and unwarranted dog shooting!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well, gee, I really think for some reason you've chosen to be on the wrong side of the fence on this one and contradicting previous statements you've made in other threads.

Anyhoo, I think I'm going to stop donating to help buy bullet proof vests for police K9s (because really, they don't often get shot or killed either if you look at it *per capita*).....

And save the money to buy bullet proof vests for my dogs instead. (<object lesson)






selzer said:


> Well, I really don't have a dog in this fight. I will keep my dogs as safe and I can keep them, and not worry about the other fraction of a percent chance that some cop will kill them.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Excellent post, I think you've captured the essence of the problem with clarity and obvious insight. Thank you for posting this.

(at ** below I would just add he is no longer useful to a_ civil and free_ society)






dpaz said:


> A good LEO puts his life on the line to apprehend dangerous criminals, thus protecting society from whatever crimes they would commit in the future. In some cases, they arrive while the crime is in progress and stop it before things get too ugly, again at their own peril. Make no mistake, good LEOs are heroes.
> 
> I will not argue that a negligent LEO would be putting himself in danger more than anyone else, and frankly, I have no problem with that part of the deal. It is evolution in action, and quite frankly it may mean he will remove himself from the police force before he hurts one of the people he is supposed to protect. I have no sympathy for the willfully incompetent, only their victims.
> 
> I think people lose sight of the fact that the public at large is more important than anyone in the police force. Any LEO who does not agree is in the wrong profession, because his sole purpose is to protect and serve that public. It is the only reason he is entrusted with a gun, and quite frankly, it is the only reason why people such as myself accept their authority or afford them any respect.* ***The moment an LEO forgets his place--that of a public servant--he has outlived his usefulness to society. Heroes are only heroes because they are relatively selfless.
> 
> John Rambo running around back without doing any reconnaissance--because he knows he can just shoot anything that gets in his way--does not fit the bill. Territorial dogs are not rare. In fact, it seems like every other house has a barking dog. He knew there could have been a dog. He did not care. He had a (petty) warrant to serve, and if that means firing rounds at a family pet in the middle of a residential neighborhood, so be it. Forget intelligence gathering. That is for pansies, and he is too busy anyway. He was in full-on, self-righteous "predator" mode, NOT "protect and serve" mode. He forgot his place.


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## GSDolch

I've tried to stay out of this, but, here it goes.


Long long ago, in a land far away......ok, seriously. When I was married to my ex, we was part of the volunteer rescue squad. We got to know the cops, fire, medics, dispatchers, etc etc. We knew how the system worked.

Well, one night, we found ourselves, at 1 am, being surrounded by the police. The ONLY thing that kept them from barging into out house was that they seen the RS (rescue squad) license plate on his jeep. However, this was only enough to get them to knock instead of just come in. They didn't bother to run the plates, or call dispatch to double check...like they should have done. If they had, they would have been told that they were at the wrong house and they wanted my neighbors and not us. I know this, because after we opened the door and they seen who it was, we stood on the porch for a few minutes and I overheard the dispatch come back with the correct address. I was furious, they didn't go to the neighbors house and check that address because they had, ironically, just moved out that day and the house was dark..it didn't look like anyone was home, so they *must* have meant out house. I was furious, I pointed to the neighbors house, said thats the (insert not nice words) house you are looking for, went back in and slammed the door.

My point is, if there is any doubt, especially if its very reasonable doubt, you step back and double check what you are doing. 

This wasn't a big meth bust, this was a petty warrant. There is no excuse IMO.


----------



## Fade2Black

From the "Justice For Vinny" Face-book page....

"Vinny will not stop trying to get up to be with Chris...
So both are spending the day sleeping"

Meanwhile that thug trigger happy officer Woodson Blase is still at loose free to violate others civil rights......


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Several of the incidents listed in this video were due to police errors.


----------



## Fade2Black

I can't even bring myself to watch that video......

To any that think "its only a dog". Well innocent dogs aren't the only ones shot at by police. They are trigger happy against people also. A recent one everyone should remember. That manhunt for officer Christopher Dorner in LA that had 10,000 crazed LEO's looking for him. The LAPD shot up an occupied van that was delivering newspapers. The van photo would make Al Capone or John Gotti proud. It looked like a mob hit. Its a miracle no one was killed. Then the LAPD shot two other civilians...... Lets also not forget in the yard was a 6 year old with a terminal illness that could have been shot. The police knew the warrant had the wrong address on it. They didn't even bother to go back to the judge to have the warrant corrected. This shooting still wouldn't have been right but at least they would have shown a little effort to do the right thing. Why am I not surprised....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

That incident is mentioned in the video.



> *One cannot do right in one department of life whilst he is occupied in doing wrong in any other department. Life is one indivisible whole. -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (1869-1948)*





Fade2Black said:


> I can't even bring myself to watch that video......
> 
> To any that think "its only a dog". Well innocent dogs aren't the only ones shot at by police. They are trigger happy against people also. A recent one everyone should remember. That manhunt for officer Christopher Dorner in LA that had 10,000 crazed LEO's looking for him. The LAPD shot up an occupied van that was delivering newspapers. The van photo would make Al Capone or John Gotti proud. It looked like a mob hit. Its a miracle no one was killed. Then the LAPD shot two other civilians...... Lets also not forget in the yard was a 6 year old with a terminal illness that could have been shot. The police knew the warrant had the wrong address on it. They didn't even bother to go back to the judge to have the warrant corrected. This shooting still wouldn't have been right but at least they would have shown a little effort to do the right thing. Why am I not surprised....


----------



## selzer

I guess I don't understand warrants. If the cops want to pick you up at your work place and not at your home, do they change the warrant to put your work-place's address on it. How about Tommy's Bar, do they put the address of Tommy's Bar on it?

Lets look at "last known address" for a second. If you have a newer address and you are not there, then maybe you are at your last known address. I mean, not all of us move out of an apartment or house we rented or owned. Sometimes we move out of our brother's house or our parents' house. So going to the last known address, or Tommy's Bar, or the workplace may be a cop actually doing their job, God Forbid! I guess if ever the cops are looking for me, all I have to do is not go home because then they will not be able to get me -- it's not on the warrant. 

I am on one side of the fence, and maybe not the most popular side, but I think it is a bit much for anyone to say that I am on the wrong side and they are on the right side. It is a matter of opinion, and in this case, I feel sorry for the victims but I am not ready to crucify the cop, or to spend a ton of money retraining every cop everywhere so that they do not shoot dogs that are charging at them. 

The cop that killed the dog in the dog park -- that cop was dead wrong. He was not doing his job. And the dog was not attacking him, he had a dog and the dog was rushing toward his dog, and he _thought _the dog was going to attack it. He was being a civilian and should have thought, "gee what do all these other people do when a dog comes charging up, they can't all just shoot the dog?" It is apples and oranges really. 

But this cop WAS doing his job. He was serving a warrant on a person who lived at that address or wrote down that that was his address. Once the cop does know that his address is the one that he got from dispatch, then he has to go in to serve the warrant, and if he is shot at over a stupid parking ticket, he has to shoot back. If a dog charges him, he has a right to protect himself. Sometimes a cop stops a speeder or comes for a minor complaint and walks into something a lot more serious, and they have to be prepared.


----------



## Fade2Black

selzer said:


> I guess I don't understand warrants. If the cops want to pick you up at your work place and not at your home, do they change the warrant to put your work-place's address on it. How about Tommy's Bar, do they put the address of Tommy's Bar on it?
> 
> Lets look at "last known address" for a second. If you have a newer address and you are not there, then maybe you are at your last known address. I mean, not all of us move out of an apartment or house we rented or owned. Sometimes we move out of our brother's house or our parents' house. So going to the last known address, or Tommy's Bar, or the workplace may be a cop actually doing their job, God Forbid! I guess if ever the cops are looking for me, all I have to do is not go home because then they will not be able to get me -- it's not on the warrant.



I think the difference (someone correct me) is they are public places anyone can enter as opposed to a private residence. So you can be picked up there or on the street. To enter a private residence they need a warrant allowing them to do it. I would think the address needs to be correct or they could just go door to door......


----------



## selzer

I think they can go door to door. They did in the Conneticut School shooting.

They did not barge into the person's house here, I don't know if they banged on the door or not before going around the back. But they did not just break in. 

I would think that a warrant would have your vital statistics on it, name, soc sec number, address, date of birth and they can then arrest you. They would need a warrant with specifically what they are looking for to search your home. Like if the warrant said they were looking for a stolen TV, and they do not find it, they really can't do anything about the weed they found sitting on a table.

But as for a person, well, I would think that if the warrant needed to spell out each address, then they would probably spend a lot more time and energy listing every address the person would be likely to be at, before going in front of the judge with it.


----------



## Fade2Black

(school shooting) They can do that but if no one is home or someone doesn't answer they just can't break in for no reason. I think they can if they have good reason to believe the person is in there (like they saw him go in or something like that)......

The other I don't know. I know for a bench warrant (like this) they can in theory break in after they knock and announce who they are. I don't know how it works entering through a gate around back (or if he would have jumped a fence). If that's considered breaking in or does he have to first announce he's there and why before doing that.....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Excuses.

It's not that hard to verify addresses in *non*-emergency situations like a petty warrant.

Google and GPS are pretty much free. I've tracked people down without 'cop powers'. 

If it's a foot pursuit after a violent criminal then I can kind-a understand but even then it should be up for review.

But these *NON* emergency wrong address incidents are flat without excuses. Like I said before if I had screwed up important shipments I would have been FIRED, no union to cover my behind, no 'brotherhood' to cover for poor performing employees. 



selzer said:


> I guess I don't understand warrants. If the cops want to pick you up at your work place and not at your home, do they change the warrant to put your work-place's address on it. How about Tommy's Bar, do they put the address of Tommy's Bar on it?
> 
> Lets look at "last known address" for a second. If you have a newer address and you are not there, then maybe you are at your last known address. I mean, not all of us move out of an apartment or house we rented or owned. Sometimes we move out of our brother's house or our parents' house. So going to the last known address, or Tommy's Bar, or the workplace may be a cop actually doing their job, God Forbid! I guess if ever the cops are looking for me, all I have to do is not go home because then they will not be able to get me -- it's not on the warrant.
> 
> I am on one side of the fence, and maybe not the most popular side, but I think it is a bit much for anyone to say that I am on the wrong side and they are on the right side. It is a matter of opinion, and in this case, I feel sorry for the victims but I am not ready to crucify the cop, or to spend a ton of money retraining every cop everywhere so that they do not shoot dogs that are charging at them.
> 
> The cop that killed the dog in the dog park -- that cop was dead wrong. He was not doing his job. And the dog was not attacking him, he had a dog and the dog was rushing toward his dog, and he _thought _the dog was going to attack it. He was being a civilian and should have thought, "gee what do all these other people do when a dog comes charging up, they can't all just shoot the dog?" It is apples and oranges really.
> 
> But this cop WAS doing his job. He was serving a warrant on a person who lived at that address or wrote down that that was his address. Once the cop does know that his address is the one that he got from dispatch, then he has to go in to serve the warrant, and if he is shot at over a stupid parking ticket, he has to shoot back. If a dog charges him, he has a right to protect himself. Sometimes a cop stops a speeder or comes for a minor complaint and walks into something a lot more serious, and they have to be prepared.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

My understanding was some liberties _were taken_ (pun intended.  ) with the Boston 'shut down' after the bombing and police canvassing neighborhoods. One lady was interviewed said she saw the police coming, opened the door to prevent them from kicking it in, was going to cooperate and ended up with a face full of loaded weapons.

(btw until I started reading the links and facebook pages with information on this issue I did not realize dog shootings like this really are more frequent then I thought. At least 50 in Texas alone in 2013 and we are only in June!)






Fade2Black said:


> (school shooting) They can do that but if no one is home or someone doesn't answer they just can't break in for no reason. I think they can if they have good reason to believe the person is in there (like they saw him go in or something like that)......
> 
> The other I don't know. I know for a bench warrant (like this) they can in theory break in after they knock and announce who they are. I don't know how it works entering through a gate around back (or if he would have jumped a fence). If that's considered breaking in or does he have to first announce he's there and why before doing that.....


----------



## selzer

But the address was right. It was listed as the last known address to the police officer. Dispatch gave him the address. I mean, some cops are good, but most of them do not have everyone's address memorized. He got the address from the database. It was there. It wasn't a mistake on the part of the officer. 

I am just guessing, but he probably went to the address on the warrant, and then called dispatch to let them know that the guy wasn't there, no longer lived there, and dispatch probably sent them to this address. It was in there database. I think he was just doing his job. 

Now should he have entered a gate and then started shooting at the dogs, that sounds pretty crazy.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> My understanding was some liberties _were taken_ (pun intended.  ) with the Boston 'shut down' after the bombing and police canvassing neighborhoods. One lady was interviewed said she saw the police coming, opened the door to prevent them from kicking it in, was going to cooperate and ended up with a face full of loaded weapons.
> 
> (btw until I started reading the links and facebook pages with information on this issue I did not realize dog shootings like this really are more frequent then I thought. At least 50 in Texas alone in 2013 and we are only in June!)


Texas cops have shot 50 dogs of innocent people, at the wrong address this year already?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The *innocent* family have been living at the address for *NINE* years.

My first career was in real estate and EVEN BEFORE the internet/computer records it was NOT hard to verify addresses/owners of property it is a matter of PUBLIC record. Verification should be SOP in non emergency situations for cryin' out loud! Not only did an officer almost kill a dog, terrify an innocent family it's a WASTE of taxpayer money to have cops going to wrong addresses which could be prevented with a simple 5 minute google search!!!

No more excuses!!!





selzer said:


> But the address was right. It was listed as the last known address to the police officer. Dispatch gave him the address. I mean, some cops are good, but most of them do not have everyone's address memorized. He got the address from the database. It was there. It wasn't a mistake on the part of the officer.
> 
> I am just guessing, but he probably went to the address on the warrant, and then called dispatch to let them know that the guy wasn't there, no longer lived there, and dispatch probably sent them to this address. It was in there database. I think he was just doing his job.
> 
> Now should he have entered a gate and then started shooting at the dogs, that sounds pretty crazy.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Links to stats within this facebook page. The lady running this page is trying affect change through legislation in TX. The video I linked earlier did elaborate and many of the incidents were wrong addresses and it IS a surprisingly common occurence but that really isn't the most important factor.

The legislation is to protect INNOCENT people and whether it's a wrong address, case of a sloppy paper work, mistaken identity doesn't matter. This really, at it's very core, is about our rights to be protected from abuse of authority, something embedded deeply in the founding of this country. People seem to forget that these protections from unlawful search, seizure OR destruction of property (including beloved family pets) did not come easy or without a fight. For the sake of expediency it's o.k. to shoot an innocent dog and shatter a law abiding familie's peace and enjoyment of their property? No. It is something that could easily be eroded away under the complacency of 'oh well mistakes happen'. 

https://www.facebook.com/rememberinglilyareasonforchange (< p.s. her dog Lily was shot and killed because police were at the wrong address)





selzer said:


> Texas cops have shot 50 dogs of innocent people, at the wrong address this year already?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Iraq Veteran's dog shot in Botched Wrong Address Drug Raid




> Adam Arroyo, who does not have a criminal record, told The Buffalo News that the narcotics division targeted the wrong apartment in the city's West Side, which resulted in the tragic death of his two-year-old pit bull, Cindy.
> 
> Read more: Iraq veteran with no criminal record claims police shot his dog dead in botched drug raid  - NY Daily News


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## Fade2Black

Not a GS but here is yet another one posted on the Justice For Vinny facebook page...... Someone in a earlier post trying to defend these butcher cops said we can't "Monday morning quarterback" the officers actions. Football is a great analogy. I am a long suffering Oakland Raider fan. The Raiders have a motto called "A Commitment To Excellence". It is as empty, false and meaningless as the Police motto "To Protect And Serve"......

(edit) I should add this is another one I could not watch.....

*ASPCA THIS IS A CRY FOR HELP: ANIMAL CRUELTY BY THE LAGRANGE MIS* 
THE STORY BEHIND THIS VIDEO IS THAT THE LAGRANGE MISSOURI POLICE DEPARTMENT ACCUSED THIS FEMALE AMERICAN BULLDOG NAMED CAMMI OF BEING VICIOUS AND THAT IS THE REASON THEY SHOT HER AND AS YOU CAN SEE SHE WASN'T VICIOUS AT ALL SO IF ANY ASPCA MEMBERS SEE OR JUST ANY AMERICAN DOG LOVER PLEASE HELP FIGHT THIS AND MAKE A STAND. THANK YOU
Length: 6:58


----------



## Mrs.K

I do believe that the support for Cops shooting dogs is fading more and more. With cameras and witnesses the "I feared for my life" excuse just doesn't fly any longer. 

How they could have possibly shot that female, after she was under control and clearly NOT a threat, is beyond me. And that is what makes me SO LIVID about cops shooting dogs. 

So many dogs, shot without any sense. 

I know we handle our dogs different. But if they would try to go through my backyard while going after a subject and shot my dogs because of it... I don't know what I'd do. 

Some of us have dogs with thousands upon thousands of dollars of training in those dogs. Some of the dogs on this forums were imported and cost a little more than just the 300 you spend for a dog on craigslist. 

Some of these dogs just can't be easily replaced. 

Think of it. You put years of training into a dog. You finally titled him to IPO 3, you put all those AKC titles on the dog. To get him to IPO 3 you've spent more than 15 000 dollars and that barely covers the gas money. One day, your dog is in your fenced in yard and you watch through the kitchen window. All of a sudden you see a cop jumping your fence and hear a pop, pop, pop... you just stand there in disbelieve over what just happened and find out that the cop was apprehending a suspect and "had to go through your yard." 

Still think that the Cop was in the right? 

I don't think so!


----------



## Fade2Black

Don't anyone think I want a Police K9 hurt, threatened or shot. But again it's a double standard. Why aren't our dogs going to be provided the same rights?? Maby that way an officer would think twice before blasting one.....Things won't change until some high ranking politician's dog is executed.....

Law named after Atlantic City's most decorated K-9 to criminalize assaults on police dogs - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Atlantic City News

* Law named after Atlantic City's most decorated K-9 to criminalize assaults on police dogs *

Posted: Monday, June 24, 2013 8:27 pm 

By LYNDA COHEN, Staff Writer 

A bill protecting law enforcement animals and honoring Atlantic City’s most-decorated police dog unanimously passed the state Senate Budget and Appropriations Committee on Monday.
Dano’s and Vader’s Law would make threatening to kill, maim or otherwise inflict harm upon a law enforcement animal a fourth-degree crime, punishable by as long as 18 months in prison and a maximum fine of $10,000.

Vader was an Atlantic City K-9 since 2008 until the promotion of his partner Frank Timek to sergeant last year forced the officer out of the K-9 unit and Vader into retirement. “Vader has apprehended dozens of criminals in our region since he began his service in 2008, but in doing so has suffered brutal physical assaults and injuries,” said bill sponsor, state Sen. Jeff Van Drew, D-Cape May, Cumberland, Atlantic. “By enhancing these penalties, we will send a clear message to criminal suspects that any intent to assault a police canine or any law enforcement animal will be met with severe consequences.”

The bill — which also honors Somerset County narcotics-sniffing dog Dano — now heads to the full Senate for a vote. A similar version is awaiting Assembly approval.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

btw- One of the dogs shot and killed in the video I posted was a little Daschund!

Really, POs fear for their life from a Daschund!

I didn't realize that ankle bites were life threatening.


----------



## JackandMattie

_Why_ did I watch that video. Aargh.


----------



## dpaz

selzer said:


> But the address was right. It was listed as the last known address to the police officer. Dispatch gave him the address. I mean, some cops are good, but most of them do not have everyone's address memorized. He got the address from the database. It was there. It wasn't a mistake on the part of the officer.
> 
> I am just guessing, but he probably went to the address on the warrant, and then called dispatch to let them know that the guy wasn't there, no longer lived there, and dispatch probably sent them to this address. It was in there database. I think he was just doing his job.
> 
> Now should he have entered a gate and then started shooting at the dogs, that sounds pretty crazy.


I think you are missing the point.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

His warrant did not authorize him to search the address he was searching, meaning he had no lawful authority to search the address he was searching. So if you are right about him, that means he did not shoot this dog as a police officer lawfully doing his job. Rather, he shot a family pet while intentionally violating our nation's highest law: the constitution.

My rights are guaranteed by the same founding document that provides any and all authority to any and all government agencies, either directly or indirectly. If an officer cannot get the job done without violating them, then that officer is not the right one for the job. I do not care if he has good intentions. I do not care about the sacrifices he makes. If he intentionally violates the very document that empowers him and validates the laws he enforces, then he is a worthless hypocrite.

So I hope you are *not* right here, because that casts him in a much more negative light IMNSHO. I think LE sympathizers often forget that LEO are ultimately only employed to ensure that everyone else can lead a good life secure in their rights, and that anything an LEO does counter to that is also counter to his right to wear a badge. The series of misjudgments and/or mistakes leading to sending this innocent family's pet to critical care, over some petty warrant, does not jive with that in the slightest.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> I do believe that the support for Cops shooting dogs is fading more and more. With cameras and witnesses the "I feared for my life" excuse just doesn't fly any longer.
> 
> How they could have possibly shot that female, after she was under control and clearly NOT a threat, is beyond me. And that is what makes me SO LIVID about cops shooting dogs.
> 
> So many dogs, shot without any sense.
> 
> I know we handle our dogs different. But if they would try to go through my backyard while going after a subject and shot my dogs because of it... I don't know what I'd do.
> 
> Some of us have dogs with thousands upon thousands of dollars of training in those dogs. Some of the dogs on this forums were imported and cost a little more than just the 300 you spend for a dog on craigslist.
> 
> Some of these dogs just can't be easily replaced.
> 
> Think of it. You put years of training into a dog. You finally titled him to IPO 3, you put all those AKC titles on the dog. To get him to IPO 3 you've spent more than 15 000 dollars and that barely covers the gas money. One day, your dog is in your fenced in yard and you watch through the kitchen window. All of a sudden you see a cop jumping your fence and hear a pop, pop, pop... you just stand there in disbelieve over what just happened and find out that the cop was apprehending a suspect and "had to go through your yard."
> 
> Still think that the Cop was in the right?
> 
> I don't think so!



Just because someone has spent 15k on a dog in training, or what have you, does not mean that the yayhoo down the road who has a $300 dog from Craig'slist, or the woman on the next block who got her dog from the pound for $25 loves the dog any less. 

I think that in all cases you do a risk analysis. If it is likely to have suspects running through your back yard and cops chasing them, then leaving your dog out there on its own might not make sense. 

And you can either make your back yard less accessible to criminals and cops, or you can go out with the dog if you live in such an area. 

I don't think that the cops should not be able to chase a suspect wherever he might run, dogs or no dogs. The cop on this thread was not chasing a suspect though, he did not see the person run into the yard or house. I don't know why he went into the fenced back yard. That is where the problem lies, not the fact that a mistake was made with the address.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Just because someone has spent 15k on a dog in training, or what have you, does not mean that the yayhoo down the road who has a $300 dog from Craig'slist, or the woman on the next block who got her dog from the pound for $25 loves the dog any less.
> 
> I think that in all cases you do a risk analysis. If it is likely to have suspects running through your back yard and cops chasing them, then leaving your dog out there on its own might not make sense.
> 
> And you can either make your back yard less accessible to criminals and cops, or you can go out with the dog if you live in such an area.
> 
> I don't think that the cops should not be able to chase a suspect wherever he might run, dogs or no dogs. The cop on this thread was not chasing a suspect though, he did not see the person run into the yard or house. I don't know why he went into the fenced back yard. That is where the problem lies, not the fact that a mistake was made with the address.


It has nothing to do about who loves his dog more. 

It's about respecting someone elses property.

No, the cop was not chasing a subject, but it also happened. Remember the dog that got shot because of a cop chasing a subject and cutting through a yard? It was also discussed on this forum. 

I'm not going to lock up my dogs 24/7 because I fear a cop could possibly shoot my dogs but if it should ever happen, I cannot guarantee for anything. Than they'll most likely have to shoot me too because I will go bat**** crazy at them!


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> It has nothing to do about who loves his dog more.
> 
> It's about respecting someone elses property.
> 
> No, the cop was not chasing a subject, but it also happened. Remember the dog that got shot because of a cop chasing a subject and cutting through a yard? It was also discussed on this forum.
> 
> I'm not going to lock up my dogs 24/7 because I fear a cop could possibly shoot my dogs but if it should ever happen, I cannot guarantee for anything. Than they'll most likely have to shoot me too because I will go bat**** crazy at them!


Well that will help your other dogs. 

My back yard is just not an easy place for someone who is running to go into, and it does not lend itself as any type of a place to cut through. 

Even the Amish fellow who used to walk from his parents' house to his timber lot, doesn't walk through my back yard, though he could. It would make my dogs bark, but he could walk along the outside of the horse fencing. 

If your yard looks like a good way to get from here to there, with only going over a short fence, or through a gate, maybe getting a bigger or solid fence, and padlocking the gate would be the thing to do. 

Of course the pit bull was inside a padlocked fence and they shot it.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Well that will help your other dogs.
> 
> My back yard is just not an easy place for someone who is running to go into, and it does not lend itself as any type of a place to cut through.
> 
> Even the Amish fellow who used to walk from his parents' house to his timber lot, doesn't walk through my back yard, though he could. It would make my dogs bark, but he could walk along the outside of the horse fencing.
> 
> If your yard looks like a good way to get from here to there, with only going over a short fence, or through a gate, maybe getting a bigger or solid fence, and padlocking the gate would be the thing to do.
> 
> Of course the pit bull was inside a padlocked fence and they shot it.


It's not. It's a 6ft privacy fenced in, locked, yard and that's the whole point...


----------



## selzer

I guess, seeing this sort of stuff happening makes people react differently. Some of us just don't think it happens enough to justify massive changes. Others want them to change how cops respond to dogs in general. And some of us reinforce our fortress and how how we manage our dogs to minimize the possibility of bad shtuff happening to them. Nothing's 100%, but privacy fencing that isn't easy to jump over, padlocks, or putting the dog up when you know the cops are coming over will make your dog safer. 

My contractor had an American Eskimo dog that barked at the cops when they stopped him. The dog was in his van. They told him that they would shoot the dog. He stopped bringing the dog with him.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

How many times, in how many states and communities does this have to happen before it becomes clear that these aren't just isolated incidents? This is pervasive attitude in LE. I just read a post by Lou Castle about how some PDs/vendors don't even bother to even try to train an out on police dogs anymore. Why? Because they are becoming a protected class and they don't care anymore.

They deal with the worst that society has to offer BUT that doesn't give them a 'right' to treat the vast majority of people in this country who are NOT criminals as though they were!

Think about what Renee said in that thread you and I were together on, that attitude is the exact attitude that ENABLES POs to shoot dogs with impunity <<that's the key word here. No accountability. It's all interconnected and apparently there isn't even much peer pressure within LE community to change this! 

Since 9/11 this has been getting worse IMO.

You know I've always believed the way we treat animals is a bell weather as to how we conduct society in general.

Shooting dogs of innocent families who have done nothing wrong and the 'law' walking away with little or no accountability is a really terrible precedent to set. 




selzer said:


> I guess, seeing this sort of stuff happening makes people react differently. Some of us just don't think it happens enough to justify massive changes. Others want them to change how cops respond to dogs in general. And some of us reinforce our fortress and how how we manage our dogs to minimize the possibility of bad shtuff happening to them. Nothing's 100%, but privacy fencing that isn't easy to jump over, padlocks, or putting the dog up when you know the cops are coming over will make your dog safer.
> 
> My contractor had an American Eskimo dog that barked at the cops when they stopped him. The dog was in his van. They told him that they would shoot the dog. He stopped bringing the dog with him.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

O.K.

I'm just going ahead and saying it...

You rock!

:thumbup:

(who was that masked man/lady?  )



dpaz said:


> I think you are missing the point.
> 
> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
> 
> His warrant did not authorize him to search the address he was searching, meaning he had no lawful authority to search the address he was searching. So if you are right about him, that means he did not shoot this dog as a police officer lawfully doing his job. Rather, he shot a family pet while intentionally violating our nation's highest law: the constitution.
> 
> My rights are guaranteed by the same founding document that provides any and all authority to any and all government agencies, either directly or indirectly. If an officer cannot get the job done without violating them, then that officer is not the right one for the job. I do not care if he has good intentions. I do not care about the sacrifices he makes. If he intentionally violates the very document that empowers him and validates the laws he enforces, then he is a worthless hypocrite.
> 
> So I hope you are *not* right here, because that casts him in a much more negative light IMNSHO. I think LE sympathizers often forget that LEO are ultimately only employed to ensure that everyone else can lead a good life secure in their rights, and that anything an LEO does counter to that is also counter to his right to wear a badge. The series of misjudgments and/or mistakes leading to sending this innocent family's pet to critical care, over some petty warrant, does not jive with that in the slightest.


----------



## greenfeldvl2

I can't even bring myself to watch that video......


----------



## llombardo

dpaz said:


> I think you are missing the point.
> 
> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
> 
> His warrant did not authorize him to search the address he was searching, meaning he had no lawful authority to search the address he was searching. So if you are right about him, that means he did not shoot this dog as a police officer lawfully doing his job. Rather, he shot a family pet while intentionally violating our nation's highest law: the constitution.
> 
> My rights are guaranteed by the same founding document that provides any and all authority to any and all government agencies, either directly or indirectly. If an officer cannot get the job done without violating them, then that officer is not the right one for the job. I do not care if he has good intentions. I do not care about the sacrifices he makes. If he intentionally violates the very document that empowers him and validates the laws he enforces, then he is a worthless hypocrite.
> 
> So I hope you are *not* right here, because that casts him in a much more negative light IMNSHO. I think LE sympathizers often forget that LEO are ultimately only employed to ensure that everyone else can lead a good life secure in their rights, and that anything an LEO does counter to that is also counter to his right to wear a badge. The series of misjudgments and/or mistakes leading to sending this innocent family's pet to critical care, over some petty warrant, does not jive with that in the slightest.


:thumbup:


----------



## DaniFani

dpaz said:


> I think you are missing the point.
> 
> "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
> 
> His warrant did not authorize him to search the address he was searching, meaning he had no lawful authority to search the address he was searching. So if you are right about him, that means he did not shoot this dog as a police officer lawfully doing his job. Rather, he shot a family pet while intentionally violating our nation's highest law: the constitution.
> 
> My rights are guaranteed by the same founding document that provides any and all authority to any and all government agencies, either directly or indirectly. If an officer cannot get the job done without violating them, then that officer is not the right one for the job. I do not care if he has good intentions. I do not care about the sacrifices he makes. If he intentionally violates the very document that empowers him and validates the laws he enforces, then he is a worthless hypocrite.
> 
> So I hope you are not right here, because that casts him in a much more negative light IMNSHO. I think *LE sympathizers* often forget that LEO are ultimately only employed to ensure that everyone else can lead a good life secure in their rights, and that anything an LEO does counter to that is also counter to his right to wear a badge. The series of misjudgments and/or mistakes leading to sending this innocent family's pet to critical care, over some petty warrant, does not jive with that in the slightest.


Sympathizers?? LMBO, are we talking about the gestapo or LE??  I generally try and stay out of these threads, it's usually the same people, circle jerking the same opinions, over and over....nothing anyone says changes anyones minds. A few of the trained LEO's around here sometimes try and step in, talk about training and everything.....apparently they are now "sympathizers" and all the points are missed. If they say, "yes, this is terrible, it needs to be properly addressed and appropriate changes made...but this isn't a good example of what is 'normal' or 'acceptable' in LE standards." Fifty million people have their anecdotal stories, "My nephews, son's, wife's, brother-in-law is a cop...and blah blah." 

We have had SEVERAL friends that are generally wary of LE, my husband and I could talk to them in a debate form like this forever....you know what really opens people's eyes? Going on a few ride alongs. Anyone can do it. Just go to your local PD, fill out the paper work, and go on a ride along. Then make your opinions, whatever they may be. I am NOT saying, "oh you don't understand, until you are a cop and see the things they see you don't get it." All I am saying is....it can help give perspective, and a little weight to an opinion. That's all. 

I don't think anyone thinks the original posted story, or any like it are okay. I think everyone agrees it was a tragedy, in many ways, firstly because of the family and the dog, but second, because the public likes to make broad-brush stroke-opinions about things, without full knowledge on the subject. And a story like this will contribute to generalized opinions on a majority...based on a minority. I wish people could see the forest through the trees....but it just isn't the case.

I haven't read all the responses, there are a lot, lol....just caught the end and thought the "sympathizer" comment was funny.


----------



## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> How many times, in how many states and communities does this have to happen before it becomes clear that these aren't just isolated incidents? This is pervasive attitude in LE. I just read a post by Lou Castle about how some PDs/vendors don't even bother to even try to train an out on police dogs anymore. Why? Because they are becoming a protected class and they don't care anymore.
> 
> They deal with the worst that society has to offer BUT that doesn't give them a 'right' to treat the vast majority of people in this country who are NOT criminals as though they were!
> 
> Think about what Renee said in that thread you and I were together on, that attitude is the exact attitude that ENABLES POs to shoot dogs with impunity <<that's the key word here. No accountability. It's all interconnected and apparently there isn't even much peer pressure within LE community to change this!
> 
> Since 9/11 this has been getting worse IMO.
> 
> *You know I've always believed the way we treat animals is a bell weather as to how we conduct society in general.*
> 
> Shooting dogs of innocent families who have done nothing wrong and the 'law' walking away with little or no accountability is a really terrible precedent to set.


Have you ever been outside this country? To other "civilized" countries?? And seen how some of them treat their "pets."


----------



## Mrs.K

DaniFani said:


> Have you ever been outside this country? To other "civilized" countries?? And seen how some of them treat their "pets."


I have. 

Denmark, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Germany and the US. 

I'm sure I've missed a couple of countries though... anyhow, the US takes Pet Ownership to an extreme more so than other countries. That being said, it is swapping over the pond just like McDonalds and Burger King did. 

It seems like this country has a lot of extremes and that there is very little common middle ground.


----------



## DaniFani

Mrs.K said:


> I have.
> 
> Denmark, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Germany and the US.
> 
> I'm sure I've missed a couple of countries though... anyhow, the US takes Pet Ownership to an extreme more so than other countries. That being said, it is swapping over the pond just like McDonalds and Burger King did.
> 
> *It seems like this country has a lot of extremes and that there is very little common middle ground.*


Gosh, I can I agree on that! I am not a fan of ANY extreme....all about balance in this home. Balance, balance, balance. ALthough I wouldn't blame the US on other countries becoming "extreme." I think it happens in cycles, in human populations, over time....regardless of country. IMO

EDIT: Just wanted to add about the extreme thing...if you look at the history of any European country you will see a roller coaster of extremes (some big wars happened on the other side of the pond lol). If you were referring to the way American's extreme pet ownership moving to Europe....I guess I don't see how that is "jumping the pond" like "McDonalds?" Like I said....I think it's just cycles in humanity....totally off subject to this thread though lol.


----------



## llombardo

DaniFani said:


> you know what really opens people's eyes? Going on a few ride alongs. Anyone can do it. Just go to your local PD, fill out the paper work, and go on a ride along. Then make your opinions, whatever they may be. I am NOT saying, "oh you don't understand, until you are a cop and see the things they see you don't get it." All I am saying is....it can help give perspective, and a little weight to an opinion. That's all.


This is what opened my eyes and made my decision not to be a cop. Between going to school, the morgue, the county jail, and just hanging out with the police(two of my teachers in college were officers) I seen more then I cared to see, but its not what you think I saw. I saw how political it is, how things are worked around to get to the means that they want....for example: The police pull over a young man that may very well be a gang banger. They have no right to search this car, but they think a gun is in it. In certain towns, if one doesn't have insurance then the car can be impounded and then legally searched, so guess whose insurance card "flies" away in the wind. Maybe they got a gun off the street, but they certainly didn't do it by following the law. Yes they meant good, but little stuff like that makes you wonder. What else are they going around? I know plenty of good and bad officers. They are not all the same, but the politics of the police force in general is. I did not want to be part of that. I'm a good person, I have morals, and from what I seen all of that can possibly go right out the window in the profession. Its just not worth it and I give lots of credit to all the officers that stay with the job and do a good job.


----------



## Myah's Mom

dpaz said:


> Aside from failing to check the address, did he do any recon at all before heading around back? A non-lethal solution could have been found had the officer only checked for the existence of a dog. Clearly, the badge and gun made him feel sufficiently invincible that he did not feel he needed to check, even to ensure his own safety. Regardless, a man who exercises such limited common sense and foresight has no business carrying a gun at all. A gun is a last resort, not something you should be counting on in lieu of due diligence to get you out of whatever difficult situation you may find yourself in. That sort of recklessly negligent person is not fit to be a hunter, much less a police officer.


Well said. Bravo.:thumbup:


----------



## DaniFani

llombardo said:


> This is what opened my eyes and made my decision not to be a cop. Between going to school, the morgue, the county jail, and just hanging out with the police(two of my teachers in college were officers) I seen more then I cared to see, but its not what you think I saw. I saw how political it is, how things are worked around to get to the means that they want....for example: The police pull over a young man that may very well be a gang banger. They have no right to search this car, but they think a gun is in it. In certain towns, if one doesn't have insurance then the car can be impounded and then legally searched, so guess whose insurance card "flies" away in the wind. Maybe they got a gun off the street, but they certainly didn't do it by following the law. Yes they meant good, but little stuff like that makes you wonder. What else are they going around? I know plenty of good and bad officers. They are not all the same, but the politics of the police force in general is. I did not want to be part of that. I'm a good person, I have morals, and from what I seen all of that can possibly go right out the window in the profession. Its just not worth it and I give lots of credit to all the officers that stay with the job and do a good job.


I hear you, however, I am of the opinion that things are moving more towards a positive/balanced police force, than the other direction. Are their still corrupt departments? Absolutely, Chicago and LA come to mind...the "good ol' boys" mentality is a hard egg to crack, but I believe it IS happening. Those are also two of the most crime ridden cities in the country...gangs, drugs, shootings, senseless, meaningless, homicides, homelessness, poverty....just sickening and sad...it's understandable (UNDERSTANDING is different than ACCEPTING) that the police would be negatively effected, and feel like they need to band together, screw everyone else...survival mode takes over....but I believe there are changes being made, even in those city's departments.

Thank goodness there are people who see corruption, and instead of saying, "oh well, I am better than them, I am better than this, I have higher moral grounds and can't 'deal' with this," they decide to join up, and make a difference where they can. Do some burn out? Do some falter? Heck yes....But there are also men and women who stand together against it, and change it. I know some of them, I am married to one of them. They are sickened when a story like this one comes out, they are outraged when they see officers abuse their power, and they care very much that the public see them as a servant for their protection and peace, rather than a gun, badge, and threats. They, like my husband, correct parents that say, "you better be good or I'll have that big bad police man come get you." They go down to one knee with the child and say, "I won't come and get you, I am here for you if you are ever in danger. If you are scared and don't know what to do, I am here to HELP you." They report other officers abusing their power, and try to never ever abuse it themselves. They actually CARE about the people they help....THOSE are the men and women that don't get heard, whose stories aren't "fantastic" enough to make the news, and who are clumped together with idiots like this guy(original story). 

I don't know, people will believe what they want to believe, and see what they want to see. For every anecdotal bad story there is an anecdotal good story, I personally think we've come a long way from even 10 years ago...and I think we continue to move forward, there are set backs, but I do think the overall push is always forward.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

That's *my* point Dani.

If police can shoot innocent family dogs with impunity (<<again that's the KEY point here) what does that say about the direction our country _is headed_....




DaniFani said:


> Have you ever been outside this country? To other "civilized" countries?? And seen how some of them treat their "pets."


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, I must respectfully disagree. Since 9/11 we are headed in the opposite direction. Evidence for this trend abounds.

I used to have a very positive view of LE in our country and I am still willing to give credit to good officers who do their job well but I really think civilians rights have increasingly been taking a back seat to police powers. What happens on an almost daily basis of dogs being shot and officers not being held accountable is just one of many red flags.

Some of the comments in that thread about whether police K9s should bite was, well, let's say a lot more enlightening then I had expected. (remember I was one of the people who said they should be bite trained, so that's not the problem...the authoritarian attitude projected by some is.)



DaniFani said:


> I hear you, however, I am of the opinion that things are moving more towards a positive/balanced police force, than the other direction. Are their still corrupt departments? Absolutely, Chicago and LA come to mind...the "good ol' boys" mentality is a hard egg to crack, but I believe it IS happening. Those are also two of the most crime ridden cities in the country...gangs, drugs, shootings, senseless, meaningless, homicides, homelessness, poverty....just sickening and sad...it's understandable (UNDERSTANDING is different than ACCEPTING) that the police would be negatively effected, and feel like they need to band together, screw everyone else...survival mode takes over....but I believe there are changes being made, even in those city's departments.
> 
> Thank goodness there are people who see corruption, and instead of saying, "oh well, I am better than them, I am better than this, I have higher moral grounds and can't 'deal' with this," they decide to join up, and make a difference where they can. Do some burn out? Do some falter? Heck yes....But there are also men and women who stand together against it, and change it. I know some of them, I am married to one of them. They are sickened when a story like this one comes out, they are outraged when they see officers abuse their power, and they care very much that the public see them as a servant for their protection and peace, rather than a gun, badge, and threats. They, like my husband, correct parents that say, "you better be good or I'll have that big bad police man come get you." They go down to one knee with the child and say, "I won't come and get you, I am here for you if you are ever in danger. If you are scared and don't know what to do, I am here to HELP you." They report other officers abusing their power, and try to never ever abuse it themselves. They actually CARE about the people they help....THOSE are the men and women that don't get heard, whose stories aren't "fantastic" enough to make the news, and who are clumped together with idiots like this guy(original story).
> 
> I don't know, people will believe what they want to believe, and see what they want to see. For every anecdotal bad story there is an anecdotal good story, I personally think we've come a long way from even 10 years ago...and I think we continue to move forward, there are set backs, but I do think the overall push is always forward.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Do they have a lot of police shooting dogs while fenced in their own yard in Germany?



Mrs.K said:


> I have.
> 
> Denmark, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Germany and the US.
> 
> I'm sure I've missed a couple of countries though... anyhow, the US takes Pet Ownership to an extreme more so than other countries. That being said, it is swapping over the pond just like McDonalds and Burger King did.
> 
> It seems like this country has a lot of extremes and that there is very little common middle ground.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You've got a few ad homs going too.

Usually abusive practices by LE are brought to light through public complaints and/or news media reports. The justice system's balance is brought about through an adversarial process. Often the state has more power and resources and isn't always invested in changing what for them may be expedient procedures even if they bring harm to innocent people.

Based on the stories from many different states as cited in the face book pages with links embedded and news story links also contained in this thread and others it is clear that there is a trend amongst many PDs that shooting dogs with no real cause is an acceptable and non-punishable act.

The only reason PDs would and/or are changing these policies is because citizens are networking, calling, writing and reporting this problem and demanding change.

They don't need to go on a ride along to know if an officer shows up at their address wrongly and shoots their dog their rights have been violated.

That's how the balance is maintained, people willing to stand up to the powers that be, including being ridiculed as naïve by LE as part of that process, and saying enough is enough.





DaniFani said:


> Sympathizers?? LMBO, are we talking about the gestapo or LE??  I generally try and stay out of these threads, it's usually the same people, circle jerking the same opinions, over and over....nothing anyone says changes anyones minds. A few of the trained LEO's around here sometimes try and step in, talk about training and everything.....apparently they are now "sympathizers" and all the points are missed. If they say, "yes, this is terrible, it needs to be properly addressed and appropriate changes made...but this isn't a good example of what is 'normal' or 'acceptable' in LE standards." Fifty million people have their anecdotal stories, "My nephews, son's, wife's, brother-in-law is a cop...and blah blah."
> 
> We have had SEVERAL friends that are generally wary of LE, my husband and I could talk to them in a debate form like this forever....you know what really opens people's eyes? Going on a few ride alongs. Anyone can do it. Just go to your local PD, fill out the paper work, and go on a ride along. Then make your opinions, whatever they may be. I am NOT saying, "oh you don't understand, until you are a cop and see the things they see you don't get it." All I am saying is....it can help give perspective, and a little weight to an opinion. That's all.
> 
> I don't think anyone thinks the original posted story, or any like it are okay. I think everyone agrees it was a tragedy, in many ways, firstly because of the family and the dog, but second, because the public likes to make broad-brush stroke-opinions about things, without full knowledge on the subject. And a story like this will contribute to generalized opinions on a majority...based on a minority. I wish people could see the forest through the trees....but it just isn't the case.
> 
> I haven't read all the responses, there are a lot, lol....just caught the end and thought the "sympathizer" comment was funny.


----------



## Mrs.K

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Do they have a lot of police shooting dogs while fenced in their own yard in Germany?


That is a very rare occurrence but it happens.

If they shoot, it's because the dog went on a rampage. Two Mals have been shot last year. The Mals belonged to a German Hells Angel President, got out of the yard and literally went on a frenzy, attacking people for no reason and injuring them badly. These dogs were shot on scene. 

Pits have been shot after attacking people. But no, they don't just shoot dogs in your backyard for no reason. 

That being said, there is a recent case of Cops shooting a dog in an apartment. 
An elderly man attacked another man for no reason. He had hit him in the face. The victim filed a report and the police went to the Attackers apartment to get his personal data. In the US the man would have probably been arrested, in Germany they go and get your personal data first before filing charges LOL. 
The dog was in the living room, when the dog heard the commotion at the door she charged the cops. The cops told the owner to hold the dog back, when he couldn't one of the cops drew his gun and shot the dog in the neck. 

Other than that, it's not a regular occurrence as in the US to read about cops shooting dogs. 

I know in February they shot two of three stray American Staffies. They were extremely aggressive. People reported them to the Police when the two males started fighting each other over food. The female on the other hand showed no aggression and they took her to the local shelter.

That being said, there were two raids, one in 2011 and another one in 2012 were dogs got shot. In the 2011 raid a Lab was shot and in 2012 a Boxer Mix sleeping on a Sofa was shot. 

In both cases the Officials said that they were wrongfully shot and the police was NOT backed up for shooting the dogs because in 2012 kids were present and in 2011 it was an elder lab. 

Also, the rules for the Police are very different from the rules in the US. Police has not as much freedom than it has in the US. They cannot arrest you as easily as they do in the US. They cannot tazer you for not signing a ticket either. There are clear rules what they can and cannot do. 

De-escalation is HUGE in Germany. However, there are cops who abuse their power and there was a recent case of cops brutally beating a man. So we do have Police Brutality. That is everywhere. However, Cops shooting dogs like it happens in the US, every couple of weeks... nope. Doesn't happen.


----------



## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You've got a few ad homs going too.
> 
> Usually abusive practices by LE are brought to light through public complaints and/or news media reports. The justice system's balance is brought about through an adversarial process. Often the state has more power and resources and isn't always invested in changing what for them may be expedient procedures even if they bring harm to innocent people.
> 
> Based on the stories from many different states as cited in the face book pages with links embedded and news story links also contained in this thread and others it is clear that there is a trend amongst many PDs that shooting dogs with no real cause is an acceptable and non-punishable act.
> 
> The only reason PDs would and/or are changing these policies is because citizens are networking, calling, writing and reporting this problem and demanding change.
> 
> They don't need to go on a ride along to know if an officer shows up at their address wrongly and shoots their dog their rights have been violated.
> 
> That's how the balance is maintained, people willing to stand up to the powers that be, including being ridiculed as naïve by LE as part of that process, and saying enough is enough.


I never said the news bringing light to bad stories is WRONG...of COURSE it's important...publicity, money, and criminal legal action, are unfortunately, the only ways to make ANYONE listen or change, nowadays...if you think ANYONE else listens to any other motivator....well...I thought I was optimistic....but people like to point out around here constantly how that's the *only way that LEO change...isn't that terrrrrible.....but, that's how ANYONE is motivated to change. I said it's sad that the other stories don't get as much light....if any..and *most of the public won't do the research and look for the other sides to stories or positive stories....most will watch news stories on the TV(I think you are kidding yourself if you think every news station doesn't have an agenda and will actually bring light to *happy stories)...or worse...anecdotal ones on FB(which are notoriously proven incorrect, lacking information etc...) and base their opinions about an entire career base on the few stories the news focuses on, without looking into the story any further, or going out of their way (because unfortunately *happy, doesn't sell) to find the good stories....in my humble opinion, it's the same as me seeing a particular race, commit crimes on the news (or even my own anecdotal experiences) and then forming an opinion about the entire race...stating that they are ALL going downhill...because of some that made the wrong choices and hurt others...it's wrong...I guess we'll agree to disagree here. 

Go back 10, 20, 50 years to Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans, LA....and compare those LEO's to todays. Heck, up until the late 90's it was completely okay to drink on your lunch or on the job, beat the crap out of someone based on race, take home things you confiscated, etc....I think it's delusional to say that still happens at the same rate it happened back then (and that it ISN'T punished).

I choose to not live in a, "it's all doomed, we live in authoritarian times!" mindset. The recent gun control debate completely debunks your thoughts on authoritarian ruling sneaking up on us...police chiefs, sheriffs, and departments across the COUNTRY wrote to your president saying they would NOT enforce any laws to take guns from his citizens. That they were there to enforce rules, not support a dictator and work with him in systematically disarming it's citizens, or any other "rules" he was going to make that went against the citizens rights....If standing up to the PRESIDENT, telling him, "no, we won't do this" isn't supporting it's citizens...well, again, I guess we agree to disagree. If the police were as "power hungry" and "out of control" as you and others think...they would have been all for taking guns and being "the bossman" and keeping quiet about whatever rules their president wanted to put into place to "protect" his citizens.....but they took a risk, for their citizens....let me guess? You think, the ONLY reason that happened is because it was guns, blah blah blah....someone will always find a reason to hate something they disagree with. That's why I *try and stay out of these types of debates. Both sides become further entrenched, and neither is open to other thoughts, opinions, or experiences.... 

smh Rules and regulations are there, are there some that disobey? You bet your bottom dollar! However, *I believe the accountability is higher, the standards are higher, and it's moving towards a more and more positive place. It can and will always need work (unless we reach that Utopian society), but I like to give credit where credit is due...and hold people accountable where needed...I don't take a few stories and say, "see see see!!!" I take those stories, and other's(like police standing up to the president, the police officer that bought the homeless guy boots in NY, etc...) and try and form a well-rounded, non-jaded, opinion......balance


----------



## DaniFani

Mrs.K said:


> That is a very rare occurrence but it happens.
> 
> If they shoot, it's because the dog went on a rampage. Two Mals have been shot last year. The Mals belonged to a German Hells Angel President, got out of the yard and literally went on a frenzy, attacking people for no reason and injuring them badly. These dogs were shot on scene.
> 
> Pits have been shot after attacking people. But no, they don't just shoot dogs in your backyard for no reason.
> 
> That being said, there is a recent case of Cops shooting a dog in an apartment.
> An elderly man attacked another man for no reason. He had hit him in the face. The victim filed a report and the police went to the Attackers apartment to get his personal data. In the US the man would have probably been arrested, in Germany they go and get your personal data first before filing charges LOL.
> The dog was in the living room, when the dog heard the commotion at the door she charged the cops. The cops told the owner to hold the dog back, when he couldn't one of the cops drew his gun and shot the dog in the neck.
> 
> Other than that, it's not a regular occurrence as in the US to read about cops shooting dogs.
> 
> I know in February they shot two of three stray American Staffies. They were extremely aggressive. People reported them to the Police when the two males started fighting each other over food. The female on the other hand showed no aggression and they took her to the local shelter.
> 
> That being said, there were two raids, one in 2011 and another one in 2012 were dogs got shot. In the 2011 raid a Lab was shot and in 2012 a Boxer Mix sleeping on a Sofa was shot.
> 
> In both cases the Officials said that they were wrongfully shot and the police was NOT backed up for shooting the dogs because in 2012 kids were present and in 2011 it was an elder lab.
> 
> Also, the rules for the Police are very different from the rules in the US. Police has not as much freedom than it has in the US. They cannot arrest you as easily as they do in the US. *They cannot tazer you for not signing a ticket either.* There are clear rules what they can and cannot do.
> 
> De-escalation is HUGE in Germany. However, there are cops who abuse their power and there was a recent case of cops brutally beating a man. So we do have Police Brutality. That is everywhere. However, Cops shooting dogs like it happens in the US, every couple of weeks... nope. Doesn't happen.


Lol...and every week? Your whole post is so sensationalized....you said yourself the US is completely extreme with their pets. Our breeding, bybs, sheer NUMBER of pets and dogs in this country is through the roof. Owners have no boundaries, no rules, terrible training....when you raise the numbers of pets to the large volume in such a large country, like the US, and try and compare it to a much smaller country, with completely different outlooks on pets...well you just can't compare the two. And your assumptions about tazering people....for a ticket...come on! When you get so sensational and *fantastic with your "stories" you completely lose all credibility....

aaaaand I am contributing to the circle jerk that these threads all become. Have a great weekend folks!


----------



## Mrs.K

Hey, I answered a question. That's all. Every case can be found on the news. These are the only cases I am aware off from the past years. 

The matter of the fact is, there could be a lot more shootings if the mind set was different in Germany and the same goes for the US. There could be a lot less shootings with a different mind set.


----------



## selzer

Mrs. K, does your population in general have guns in Germany? I mean, is it just about every household or every other household that owns firearms over there? 

If guns are strictly controlled, then the cops would not be as quick to use the weapon. If they weren't that concerned about someone shooting them, they would not have to have that weapon out and ready? Which makes it much less likely for the cops to kill people's pets on accident. In England, ordinary cops don't even carry guns. I would expect that they would have fewer accidents with guns they are not carrying.

Are certain breeds banned in Germany as they are in England and in other countries? If the most powerful of dogs are not there, the chances of cops shooting them do go down. 


Now, if you look at the population of Germany as opposed the the population of the US, and the number of dogs in Germany as opposed to the number of dogs in the US, I think it would stand to figure that the numbers of accidents involving cops, guns, and dogs will be higher in the US. 

But every week? Ok, I have heard of two in one week, but I don't hear of this stuff every week.


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## Mrs.K

If we speak about comparison, yes, Germany is a much smaller country and in comparison we have a much higher density. We've got ca. 80 Million people in Germany. 225 people per square kilometer, the United States has 21 People per Square Kilometer. Over 10 Million people owned at least 1 dog in 2002 not speaking about those with multiple dogs per household. And those are the registered dogs, there are many more unregistered dogs to evade tax. 

If you consider HOW MANY dogs we have in Germany, you'd think we'd have more problems.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. One needs to look at this per capita.

Thanks for your insight as well.



Mrs.K said:


> If we speak about comparison, yes, Germany is a much smaller country and in comparison we have a much higher density. We've got ca. 80 Million people in Germany. 225 people per square kilometer, the United States has 21 People per Square Kilometer. Over 10 Million people owned at least 1 dog in 2002 not speaking about those with multiple dogs per household. And those are the registered dogs, there are many more unregistered dogs to evade tax.
> 
> If you consider HOW MANY dogs we have in Germany, you'd think we'd have more problems.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I disagree with you on the overall trend and the evidence I would provide would be off topic and potentially political. I've alluded to a couple examples earlier and that's as far as I'm going to push it, out of respect for the rules of this forum.

I didn't use those words (as you have in in blue below). I think people understand perfectly well that it's about balance and that not ALL POs are bad. You are being defensive about this. That's part of the problem and I've seen that before too.

The problem is police are NOT on par with the vast majority of people who aren't in LE. Therefore when they cross the line it's far more serious and impactful then if it's a neighbor who shoots a person's dog without cause. The victims have far less recourse when it's PO.

I wonder how many of these dog shooting incidents go unreported??

(btw we'll never reach a utopian society, crime and punishment are industries unto themselves, we have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the developed world even with overall crime rates trending down, that's a fact)




DaniFani said:


> I never said the news bringing light to bad stories is WRONG...of COURSE it's important...publicity, money, and criminal legal action, are unfortunately, the only ways to make ANYONE listen or change, nowadays...if you think ANYONE else listens to any other motivator....well...I thought I was optimistic....but people like to point out around here constantly how that's the *only way that LEO change...isn't that terrrrrible.....but, that's how ANYONE is motivated to change. I said it's sad that the other stories don't get as much light....if any..and *most of the public won't do the research and look for the other sides to stories or positive stories....most will watch news stories on the TV(I think you are kidding yourself if you think every news station doesn't have an agenda and will actually bring light to *happy stories)...or worse...anecdotal ones on FB(which are notoriously proven incorrect, lacking information etc...) and base their opinions about an entire career base on the few stories the news focuses on, without looking into the story any further, or going out of their way (because unfortunately *happy, doesn't sell) to find the good stories....in my humble opinion, it's the same as me seeing a particular race, commit crimes on the news (or even my own anecdotal experiences) and then forming an opinion about the entire race...stating that they are ALL going downhill...because of some that made the wrong choices and hurt others...it's wrong...I guess we'll agree to disagree here.
> 
> Go back 10, 20, 50 years to Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans, LA....and compare those LEO's to todays. Heck, up until the late 90's it was completely okay to drink on your lunch or on the job, beat the crap out of someone based on race, take home things you confiscated, etc....I think it's delusional to say that still happens at the same rate it happened back then (and that it ISN'T punished).
> 
> I choose to not live in a, "it's all doomed, we live in authoritarian times!" mindset. The recent gun control debate completely debunks your thoughts on authoritarian ruling sneaking up on us...police chiefs, sheriffs, and departments across the COUNTRY wrote to your president saying they would NOT enforce any laws to take guns from his citizens. That they were there to enforce rules, not support a dictator and work with him in systematically disarming it's citizens, or any other "rules" he was going to make that went against the citizens rights....If standing up to the PRESIDENT, telling him, "no, we won't do this" isn't supporting it's citizens...well, again, I guess we agree to disagree. If the police were as "power hungry" and "out of control" as you and others think...they would have been all for taking guns and being "the bossman" and keeping quiet about whatever rules their president wanted to put into place to "protect" his citizens.....but they took a risk, for their citizens....let me guess? You think, the ONLY reason that happened is because it was guns, blah blah blah....someone will always find a reason to hate something they disagree with. That's why I *try and stay out of these types of debates. Both sides become further entrenched, and neither is open to other thoughts, opinions, or experiences....
> 
> smh Rules and regulations are there, are there some that disobey? You bet your bottom dollar! However, *I believe the accountability is higher, the standards are higher, and it's moving towards a more and more positive place. It can and will always need work (unless we reach that Utopian society), but I like to give credit where credit is due...and hold people accountable where needed...I don't take a few stories and say, "see see see!!!" I take those stories, and other's(like police standing up to the president, the police officer that bought the homeless guy boots in NY, etc...) and try and form a well-rounded, non-jaded, opinion......balance


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## Cetan

If anyone's shooting at my family on my property, and my boy is my son without a doubt, I'm returning fire in self-defense, no questions asked. I'm just thankful I live way out in the country, and the only time people stumble across my house is when they are *very very* lost.


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## Fade2Black

Since it's Thursday the 4th now and this was posted on Monday. I am hoping I won't jinx it for Vinny.......

>>>>>>Vinny is doing much better today. We had a thunder storm night before last and he slept under the comforter glued to his Dad.
His appetite is really good although i think he craves chicken and steak now. So I am not sure whether he has turned into a werewolf or he just got used to tidbits of meat to boost his appetite. 
The drain holes are beginning to close now and we are hoping that the risk of infection has passed.
I want to thank everyone for their kind thoughts and caring for our special boy.<<<<<<


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## Fade2Black

>>>>>>Vinny had his staples removed today afterwards we ran to town as I had to stop in and pay a bill. As always he made new friends and was as always a perfect ambassador for the breed. He never fails to amaze me with his resiliency and his gentle nature. When we got home he had his first bath since the incident. So he's clean, happy and sound asleep on my pillow.<<<<<<<


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## Gwenhwyfair

Awww and he's a handsome boy too!

Thanks for posting these positive updates.  




Fade2Black said:


> >>>>>>Vinny had his staples removed today afterwards we ran to town as I had to stop in and pay a bill. As always he made new friends and was as always a perfect ambassador for the breed. He never fails to amaze me with his resiliency and his gentle nature. When we got home he had his first bath since the incident. So he's clean, happy and sound asleep on my pillow.<<<<<<<


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