# Handler Aggression



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

"Handler aggression" is a term that is thrown around a lot and means different things to different people. I am curious how YOU define it and what are some specific behaviors that would make YOU say that a dog is "handler aggressive?". 
Additionally what do YOU believe to be the root 
cause(s)? Is it purely genetic? Is it purely manufactured by the handler? Something else? Is it a combination? 
Further more would you buy (or continue to own) a dog that YOU consider handler aggressive? Would you breed to one?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am sure there are dogs out there that are what is label "Handler Aghresive", but some of them are just that handler, with a different hadler they are fine. Just my personal Opinion is that very strong dogs really don't appreciate hard - prolonged corrections. They seem to accept a quick hard correction like yea I had that coming, but if you continue with the correction or give another just because, the dog feels he didn't deserve it and will let the handler know, and that to me is a handling error not "Handler Agressive" well it could be "Handler Agressive" if you look it in terms of the handler being to aggressive with the dog.

Just a note, I do not do SchH and my experience comes from having a different variety of dogs from Hard well balanced to soft weak nerves.

Val


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

If handler aggression is aggression towards the handler, I do think it stems from the techniques used by the handler, except in very very very rare cases. Some dogs will just shrink under certain handlers, but many will respond and defend themselves. 

Much like some kids. I would never allow my parents to spank me, I fought back.....maybe that's genetic, but I was the only one of us kids who felt that they didn't have a right to inflict pain upon me. While dogs aren't human, I do think they have their own sense of what is fair, and some dogs will stick up for themselves more quickly than others.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Handler Adhesive? Is that one of those really clingy dogs?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

OK so I can't spell.

Anne, cut me a little slack, you know what I was trying to say.

Val


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I guess that might be the same thing if the dog bites you and won't let go. Sorry Val....lol


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Anne, I have been working on the computer for 14 hours with 2 food breaks (about 1 1/2 hours). I will be glad when I get done with this project and I can get some of my life back. What we won't do for money.

Val


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: VandalI guess that might be the same thing if the dog bites you and won't let go. Sorry Val....lol



















Great comeback! Actually love the imagery! Thanks for the laugh you guys!


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

I believe handler aggression is BOTH genetic and learned/situational.
Will it change with handler-who knows
would I own a dog with handler aggression-I do
should a dog with handler aggression be bred-maybe
won't comment on whether I would breed not knowledgeable enough
what I believe is=handler aggressive dog is not usually a fearful dog and probably has strong need to work and maybe too smart to always submit and/or fit in to some owners agenda.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

guess I can assume zahnburg has left the building?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I am here. I got kind of busy the last few days and did not have an opportunity to respond. 
Thanks for the response ttall. I do have a question for you. What behaviors does your dog exhibit that makes you say that he is handler aggressive? 

Anne,
You can not do that! I spat soda all over my desk...twice!


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Quote: What behaviors does your dog exhibit that makes you say that he is handler aggressive?


I'm going to throw this question out there:

Would anyone say that there is a difference between _reactive_ aggressiveness (eg to a hard correction) versus _handler _aggressiveness?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks for response.I have a long rocky relationship with my dog.He has never shown aggression toward people He has bad dog aggression and when on prong collar has come up the lead and bitten me when we encounter off lead dogs.Not appropriate for me to comment as an expert but don't think handler aggression in one dog would be any reason for not breeding


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Newbie question: if handler aggression is not reactive aggression (to correction), what could it possibly be? 

Also, in training I have heard people who use the term in an almost neutral way ... like it was just something quirky about the dog you have to deal with.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It could be true just flat out aggression couldn't it? Just a dog who likes to aggress for the sake of it. Like he we are, I'm kind of bored, let me see if I can flatten you...I've had/have a dog who likes to do stuff like that for the fun of it-not GSDs but mixes of (with Chow Chow







). Or so it seems to me. So this is a question after a question...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Dog that comes up the leash at inappropriate, often actually sorta afraid of the dog, heavy handed, unfair handler.....yeah, I might take a pup from that dog taking into account the entire package of the dog. 

I have seen dogs quickly react to a correction when they were being worked in drive that someone had sent into the stratosphere. Is that handler aggression? Never saw the same dogs react like that in lower drive situations.

What about a dog that has high possession drive and doesn't want to give up his 'thingy" in his possesssion. Handled badly, might be some interesting behavior there too.

I think "handler" is often the operative word here.. Hey, I have seen "dog aggressive" handlers who appear to me to be itching for a fight whether they realize it, I don't know.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Hey, I have seen "dog aggressive" handlers who appear to me to be itching for a fight whether they realize it, I don't know.


LOL...I have seen those too. Editted to add: I have not met one who realized it...it is always the dog's fault with those types.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgI am curious how YOU define it and what are some specific behaviors that would make YOU say that a dog is "handler aggressive?".


To me it means the dog will not stand by and take inappropriate corrections and/or constant nagging from the handler. IMO it's not *always* a bad thing and certainly says more about the handler than the dog.

I don't think every dog that bites a handler is handler aggressive. My dog's bit me so many times I cannot count. Most were bad targeting. Some were when the dog is really amped up, like during protection and I reach in too close to untangle a leg from the line. Even though I've got punctures and scars, my dog is actually pretty handler _sensitive_.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Now Nicole is getting to the root of the issue. To me this does not make a dog "handler aggressive". Have I had dogs come back at me? Absolutely. Have I been bitten? Absolutely. Do I consider this "handler aggression"? No. 

I have seen very few dogs that I consider "handler aggressive." The dogs that I do consider "handler aggressive" are primarily of two types. 
The first are the dogs that are trained via compulsion but are not given any way to escape the pressure. So when they are being worked they are in constant fear of their lives and thus see no alternative except to fight back. 
The second are dogs that have learned to win by coming back at the handler. Either they have learned that they can make pressure stop by doing this or they have learned that the handler will give them what they want (a ball for example) to avoid a fight with the dog. 

Jean,

I disagree. In my experience a dog does not randomly show behaviors. Anything they do is to either gain something good (a ball for example), prevent something bad (a correction), or to satisfy an innate drive (mating for example). 

TTall,
I think Samba's post about correcting dogs when in high drive is what you are seeing in your dog.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I have re-read my post and I want to clarify regarding the first type of dog that I referred to as being "in constant fear of their lives". This is a bit of an exaggeration. It also means dogs that while not "fearing for their life" see no other possible avenue to turn off the pressure. 

I hope this clarifies what I mean.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Reactive aggressive versus handler aggressive are often viewed/thought of as being one and the same, which is why is simply had to post my question to see if anyone else would come on board with some further discussion on this









It is a most interesting topic to discuss...lots of different trains of thought on this and often lots of heated debate goes along with it!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If you put strong dominant, independant dogs in the right situation it may be evoked from some dogs. 

Is it inevitable? Can methods avoid it? Is it due to a character flaw? Should the genetics that won't take a kicking and keep on licking be passed on?


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

informative thread!! learned my dog is most probably reactive aggressive-and probably ALL aggression my fault as someone not realizing. maybe there is a behavior called reactive handler aggressive?All incidents occurred when he was ramped up.I stopped using a prong because when he became amped he was self punishing with prong and blaming me.Strong dominant independant describe him would add touch of stubborn.I have loved the challenge-the bites not so much.
He would NOT take a DELIBERATE kicking and keep on licking-anyone trying to do an alpha roll better have on a full kevlar suit.
I rescued him and never owned a dog like this!!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgNow Nicole is getting to the root of the issue. To me this does not make a dog "handler aggressive". Have I had dogs come back at me? Absolutely. Have I been bitten? Absolutely. Do I consider this "handler aggression"? No.
> 
> I have seen very few dogs that I consider "handler aggressive." The dogs that I do consider "handler aggressive" are primarily of two types.
> The first are the dogs that are trained via compulsion but are not given any way to escape the pressure. So when they are being worked they are in constant fear of their lives and thus see no alternative except to fight back.
> The second are dogs that have learned to win by coming back at the handler. Either they have learned that they can make pressure stop by doing this or they have learned that the handler will give them what they want (a ball for example) to avoid a fight with the dog.


So would you say then that there is no such thing as handler aggression - taking the phrase literally - since the two scenarios you listed are the dogs are handler aggressive because their handlers made them that way?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Jason,
Good question and remember this is only how I view this. As I stated before the term has different meanings to different people. 
I contend that there is absolutely such a thing as "handler aggression" but to me it is a chronic condition, not just a dog that will come up the leash in reaction to certain circumstances. In my opinion "handler aggression" is purely manufactured by the handler. Sure some dogs are more prone to come back at the handler, but, as I opined before, this is not "handler aggression".
To me a dog must LEARN to be "handler aggressive", he does this by deriving some benefit from coming after the handler (pressure stops, he gets some sort of reward, etc., etc.). I will also add that once a dog learns this it seems that it is always there. I have seen on several occasions a dog with his second (or third, 4th or whatever) handler that, despite the skill or methods of his current handler, will have a tendency to revert back to what he learned will work from his first handler, that is to come back at the handler.
To me "handler aggression", as I define it, is preventable by following two rules. 
1. Be fair to the dog. You can demand a lot from a dog and put a lot of pressure on a dog so long as it is FAIR. Going hand in hand with this is mutual respect. The dog must respect the handler and the handler must respect the dog. 
2. The dog must learn that there is nothing to gain by fighting with the handler. Fighting with the handler does not bring success, the only path to success is compliance. 

@Nicole,

That is why I started this thread. I was curious to know how other people define this term. This curiosity came about a while back when someone suggested one of my dogs was "handler aggressive", (I did not and do not think so) and we got into a whole discussion about the term. So I was just curious.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

In your experience are 'handler aggressive dogs'also people aggressive when off lead NOT in a training situation?I would think this is a BAD sign.
I also think when a "not weak nerved"dog has learned handler aggression works you have to be VERY skilled to overcome this.If you figure it out you may have the best you ever thought possible.Just wondering what the possible success rate is?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

TTall,
I am not sure that "handler aggression" directly translates into any other sort of aggression. 
I would contend that the success rate is low when dealing with a dog that has learned to be handler aggressive. It is a very rare kind of person who is willing and able to deal with a dog who demonstrates this behavior. I believe this is why you see other wise excellent dogs passed from handler to handler. They always seem to end up with someone who is content just to breed the dog and not try to trial the dog.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Quote:In your experience are 'handler aggressive dogs'also people aggressive when off lead NOT in a training situation?


My thought is not all dogs that display "handler aggressiveness" (as per Art's description of how he defines a dog such as this) secondary to an induced stimulus that causes the dog to redirect to the source are not neccessarily "people aggressive". Now if such a dog is placed in a situation whereby someone inflicts pain to them, I would gander that this could transfer over to whomever inflicted the stimulus (perhaps as a "learned behaviour"







)but that's just MHO. 

Maybe I should start another thread but I would also be curious to hear of peoples' experiences with their dog in a situation whereby another individual might correct the handler's dog (and whether or not you have a dog that you would consider to be "handler aggressive" or not) - would your dog (or has your dog) come up and redirected to the person giving the correction? And what would your thoughts be on this? Would you expect your dog to tolerate a correction from someone else or not? Why or why not?


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

MMMMM interesting... I just had a discussion with someone. She has a massive powerful young male that is from herding lines (very famous) and he was being handled for sheep herding by a very experienced AKC Herding judge. The owner was not physically able to handle this large drivey dog so he took over. Apparently they use some sort of harness? or something to help control an overly energetic, focused, drivey dog who wants to immediately go after the sheep. Well after the dog was self -corrected a couple times on this apparatus and it slowed him down he apparently came right around on the handler in frustration and showed him every pearly white in that massive head of his. As if to say "I am a really mad and I am really thinking about taking all this out on you" The owner interveined and she stated that the handler may never want to work the dog again. Granted I was not there to see what transpired and I am not exactly clear on the apparatus used on the dog but it did not sound like it was harmful just seriously frustrating for a very driven dog. Owner not real sure if dog would have continued coming up the lead if she had not moved quickly.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

is it fair to judge a dog that has been encouraged to have a strong prey drive and not trained in bite inhibition but encouraged to bite (granted on sleeve ) when they 'at times' follow these drives we encourage.Think my dog probably would be handler aggressive to anyone if triggers/situation/stress were there.
Maybe herding dogs who are trained in "no bite"are less likely to bite/but maybe threaten handler if they don't let them "HERD"
Just also really would wonder if any handler aggression seen in showlines.


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## heysharon (Apr 20, 2010)

This is an old thread, but currently pertinent for me. Yesterday Soldier bit me on the thigh after I popped his choke (not prong) when he lunged at a passing bike. This is the third time he's bitten my thigh. Both other times were during leash reactions to surprise close encounters with other dogs. I would consider him to have very strong nerves. He has never startled at strange objects, sudden noises or movement, not from the time I tested all of those things on him before buying him as a pup. Although I daily demand (and enforce) that he allow me to lead the way up the stairs and out the door, not a day goes buy that he doesn't try to get ahead of me or attempt to herd me from behind.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

heysharon said:


> This is an old thread, but currently pertinent for me. Yesterday Soldier bit me on the thigh after I popped his choke (not prong) when he lunged at a passing bike. This is the third time he's bitten my thigh. Both other times were during leash reactions to surprise close encounters with other dogs


 Time to try something else. Not all dogs will tolerate a leash correction when they get overstimulated and it's safe to say that Soldier is one of those dogs. IME most "handler aggression" is nothing more than redirected aggression. The dog gets overstimulated or frustrated, you make physical contact with the dog and the dog redirects his frustration to you. In other cases, it is the dog becoming reactive over the handler's correction. To some dogs, corrections are perceived as a physical attack and they will fight back. Dogs do not naturally understand corrections the way human use them. For dogs, "corrections" coming from other dogs start with very subtle warnings. With humans, corrections may seem to come out of the blue for the dog. Regardless, IME this sort of thing isn't so much about "dominance" or the dog being "tuff". Usually it's about the handler insisting on using methods that aren't working for the dog. 




heysharon said:


> I would consider him to have very strong nerves. He has never startled at strange objects, sudden noises or movement, not from the time I tested all of those things on him before buying him as a pup. Although I daily demand (and enforce) that he allow me to lead the way up the stairs and out the door, not a day goes buy that he doesn't try to get ahead of me or attempt to herd me from behind.


 Going up and down the stairs and out the door first is much more meaningful to the human, who believes it to be a sign of dominance than the dog, who just want to go outside.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't remember reading this thread the first time around...what an interesting discussion. I would love to see it a refreshed and discussed again. A long time ago, after posting the Beast's pedigree, I had someone pm about the dogs in his family- they said he had dogs with a lot of "handler aggression" in his lineage and asked how it was to actually live with him. I have over the years thought a lot about that- and about what handler aggression IS and it root causes....


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## them bones is white (Aug 12, 2013)

is it at all possible to reopen this as a new thread? i find the info here more pertinent to this topic than anything out there i have so far found and i have literally been searching for years! for the first time i see light at the end of this tunnel for my current dog. maybe not a cure, but some sure possibilities. with the knowledge and experience some of you here have, i think i could actually figure something out that works with my dog. hes handler aggressive over corrections. he often does not wish to comply with commands, mostly heel and stand, preferring to look you in the eye and sit if asked to stand, and ignoring me when asked to heel and forging ahead anyway. when corrected, he bites my correction forearm. not hard enough to draw blood or break skin, but will leave scuff marks at times and i always get moderate bruises from it. after that he is just waiting for me to try another correction so he can do it again. any thoughts?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

people get reactive dogs or dogs comming up on the leash at them mixed up with handler aggression


reality is NO ONE wants a true handler aggressive dominant dog because a dog like that can pull out ur inards pretty fast and it will. It will really mess you up. A sane person is not going to like a dog like that. These dogs have what 500 pounds of bite per square inch? More than a pit bull or dobie even. 

The dogs that might just bite or come up at you are not handler aggressive in my eyes at least. They are just typical gsds that feel they are not being treated fair. A lot will do this. Some are just snarky. Some are just mistreated. Some spoiled. Depends on the dog. If you are working your dog and it nails you I dont consdier that handler aggressive. If anytime you touch your dog and it takes off your hand thats handler aggressive. THose dogs are VERY RARE. No one is going to own that. You have to slip their food and water bowl under their fence with a stick lol My trainer has told me about dogs like this. They will also bite anywhere. You can't work them without a full suit. They are very dangerous dogs. People will be in for a huge shocker when they meet one.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

them bones is white said:


> is it at all possible to reopen this as a new thread? i find the info here more pertinent to this topic than anything out there i have so far found and i have literally been searching for years! for the first time i see light at the end of this tunnel for my current dog. maybe not a cure, but some sure possibilities. with the knowledge and experience some of you here have, i think i could actually figure something out that works with my dog. hes handler aggressive over corrections. he often does not wish to comply with commands, mostly heel and stand, preferring to look you in the eye and sit if asked to stand, and ignoring me when asked to heel and forging ahead anyway. when corrected, he bites my correction forearm. not hard enough to draw blood or break skin, but will leave scuff marks at times and i always get moderate bruises from it. after that he is just waiting for me to try another correction so he can do it again. any thoughts?


If you will start a new thread, more will see the post - especially the experienced handlers and trainers we have on here.


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