# Working Lines vs Show Lines (wait, what?)



## Raizo

^^ Hello again, to those who've responded to my previous threads (I've got plenty more questions were those came from!), I'm back with something that I have very little understanding of. Working Lines and Show Lines, also it seems as though German Shepherds from DDR (East German), differ from Czechoslovakian Lines (Czech) German Shepherds.

What I want to know is what they are, (I have found a link that explains it, but its still a bit fuzzy) and how can I possibly choose which one would be best for me and my family?

*List of loose requirements for my GSD as of September 25th, 2010:*

*Suitable for Personal Protection Work
*Suitable for Schultzhund Competitions (trials?)
*Makes a good family pet

What type of German Shepherd should I be looking for? Will I have to sacrifice one of the three in favor of the PP work or Schultzhund Competitions? If it's absolutely necessary, then I'm fine with that.

Ah, here's the link I found explaining a little of it.
Quality Breeders of Large German Shepherds


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## Zoeys mom

Any GSD will be good for personal protection of your family without a doubt and most would chose a working line dog for Schutzhund, but your average working line dog takes awhile to become a great family pet. All that drive makes for a hyper nippy puppy who will need a lot of exercise and mental stimulation from you. Schutzhund is like having a part time job on top of your full time job and is pretty expensive. If you have the time and money go for it, but even a great working pup is not exactly born to be a schutzhund dog. That is going to take a lot of determination and training on your part. Why not visit a few clubs in your area and get a feel for the sport and the dogs. Thats really going to be the best way to decide what kind of dog your looking for and for what purposes you really want the dog


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## Liesje

I would get a working line. If you are really interested in Schutzhund and being competitive, that should be your focus. It is more stylized than other types of training and requires the right genetics and foundation (how you raise, socialize, and initially train). Once you get on your way in SchH you will know enough about your particular dog to branch out into other protection work. Keep in mind that there are liabilities that come with having a real, trained personal protection dog.

I don't think that raising a good SchH prospect has to be different or more difficult than any other type. Drive is not the same as hectic behaviors or hyper activity. I've seen some really nice, well bred working line puppies that had great manners and were not difficult puppies.


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## Andy-jr.

Like Liesje said, go with the working line. I have had both working and just your average pet line and I love the working line. To me they seem to be fast learners and willing to learn.


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## KZoppa

i would definitely say go with working line if those are your goals. I have a showline girl and she is not even close to suited for anything except a family pet. She's a little slow on the learning too. She's not high drive for anything except food and attention. She doesnt like to play fetch or chase anything. She's the first of my dogs to hide and she's VERY friendly with everyone and everything. She's my chicken dog. Zena is my working line girl, she has the protection instinct down pat and the drive to learn readily. Riley is a mix and if i had to guess i would say his GSD side is from working lines given his temperment. Shasta's dad is from germany but i would say he was more showlines. I'm anxiously waiting for the day i can bring home my working line male. I have a few breeders in mind too but until i'm able, i'm not seriously looking. Okay now i'm babbling. Go with working line. I know there are tons of people on this board that prefer the DDR lines over the Czech lines. To my knowledge you can even find working lines with both DDR and Czech lines in there.


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## Castlemaid

And if you are looking for a dog for Schutzhund, you definitely DON'T want an "Old Fashioned Large German Shepherd"

Here is a good article that describes more in depth the differences between Working and Show/ American and German:

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

And also some highly recommended reading:

(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )


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## JKlatsky

You have to prioritize and understand what you mean when you say "Personal Protection Dog" as well as family pet. 

Can you get all 3? Yes. But you probably won't know it until the dog is older. It is very difficult to get a puppy and know that it will be good for Personal Protection Work. Understand what you are asking for there. A Personal Protection Dog generally has a high level of suspicion and will engage a stranger without equipment. The purpose of a true Personal Protection Dog is to buy you time to get a gun or call for help. If all you really want is a dog that barks and looks the part most any dog will do. However...those kind of protection drives do not really emerge until the dog is mature (after 2 years of age). 

If you want a SchH dog, your best bet is a working line. You should go visit some clubs and see the dogs so you understand what goes into that.

Family pet. Did you see this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nd-trainging-pet-trainging-4.html#post1912378 I think it does a nice job of pointing out the differences in rearing a working puppy versus the average family pet. I stand by what I said there... SchH puppies are terrible family pets. SchH dogs are the best. So after a year or so of training your dog will probably be excellent in the home...it's getting there that's will be the hard part.


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## Raizo

*To Zoey's Mom:* Just to be clear, working line dogs CAN become good family pets while still having a job or doing Shutzhund, right? o.o

*To Liesje:* Thank you for the advice! I've already located several Shutzhund clubs in my area (though they're all about an hour away from where I currently live), and I'll give them each a call tomorrow, to see if I can drop by for a visit. =)

*KZoppa:* =D Chicken dog! Awww. She sounds like a wonderful girl nonetheless! I love the name Zena. A strong, powerful, mentally sound dog automatically comes to mind...

*Castlemaid:* A big THANK YOU for the articles! I've just finished the one explaining the working and show/American and german lines, and it's cleared things right up. I'm definitely searching for a Working Line GSD if I want to do the Shutzhund/Personal Protection Training. On to the next article!


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## Raizo

> A Personal Protection Dog generally has a high level of suspicion and will engage a stranger without equipment. The purpose of a true Personal Protection Dog is to buy you time to get a gun or call for help. If all you really want is a dog that barks and looks the part most any dog will do. However...those kind of protection drives do not really emerge until the dog is mature (after 2 years of age).


I know what you're saying, but yes, my family and I honestly want a TRUE Personal Protection Dog. It would be great to never have a NEED for one, the knowledge that my dog will be able to protect me when my life and wellbeing is threatened no matter where we are, is something I'm willing to go to any lengths to achieve. Even if it takes a year+, that's fine. Thanks for the link, checking out that thread now!


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## KZoppa

Raizo said:


> *KZoppa:* =D Chicken dog! Awww. She sounds like a wonderful girl nonetheless! I love the name Zena. A strong, powerful, mentally sound dog automatically comes to mind...


 
*lol yeah Shelby is my chicken girl. Zena is my (well my inlaws now but hopefully mine again soon!) protector girl. She's my perfect dog. Excellent with kids, cats, most other dogs with proper introductions. Long as other dogs dont start any trouble she's cool with them. She's a pretty good dog. Shelby is a good girl but would rather hide than face anything... including the big fierce 7 lb cat that was raised by Zena lol!!! Shelby never met Zena so i'm curious to see how my girls would do when they do meet in february. *

*this is my Zena dog. her attitude and build tell me she is from working lines though probably a BYB case as her hips arent soo good but she gets the job done very nicely!*










*and this is my chicken dog Shelby. She's my showline girl. I was told she was from a local breeder, whom i can safely assume was a BYB because they told her previous owners that if they didnt take her, Shelby would be drowned as she was "useless" to the BYB. Shelby is a very sweet girl. Only issue we have with her is she suffers from seperation anxiety but we're working on it. *

















*the cat in the picture is the 7lb terror cat. lol. She's a sweet cat but doesnt take ANYTHING from the dogs. She'll love on them and accept kisses from them but will smack them around if they get too nosey with her too. She's the cat Zena raised. *


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## Raizo

*To KZoppa:* Awww! Such cutie pies! (the little girl and the dog) I love the little pink tongue poking out of Zena's mouth! A 7lb terror! LOL! (actually made me laugh out loud) Oh that must be a sight to see! A 7lb cat putting two big dogs in their places! I can only imagine what that must look like. Such pretty girls. Gosh I'm loving this breed more and more every time I see them. =P
And that 7lb terror has such long, wonderful whiskers! (Oh yes, I am a cat-lover as well as a dog-lover)


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## KZoppa

Raizo said:


> *To KZoppa:* Awww! Such cutie pies! (the little girl and the dog) I love the little pink tongue poking out of Zena's mouth! A 7lb terror! LOL! (actually made me laugh out loud) Oh that must be a sight to see! A 7lb cat putting two big dogs in their places! I can only imagine what that must look like. Such pretty girls. Gosh I'm loving this breed more and more every time I see them. =P
> And that 7lb terror has such long, wonderful whiskers! (Oh yes, I am a cat-lover as well as a dog-lover)


 
Faith being raised by Zena, i think she understands dogs better than she understands cats. She puts out other cat directly in his place. Kicks his furry butt all over the house!!! I'm a dog and cat lover myself. Grew up with cats my entire life. Moved out after high school and we got Riley. No pictures of him up as he's camera shy (more angry than shy lol). Here's a better picture of Zena. You can see what i mean by her build resembling working lines more than showlines. Compare her with Shelby and i'm sure you'll see and obvious difference. 



















Zena weighs roughly 85 lbs and Shelby wont ever top 70 and thats a fat weight for her at 70 lbs. She's roughly 65 lbs but i'd lean more towards her being 60. She's a pretty light weight girl compared to Zena.


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## Jessiewessie99

I just wanted to add this little note: German Shepherds will protect you no matter what.Its one of the many reasons why we people(here on this board and off this board) love this breed so much.

May I ask why you are so persistent that the dog needs to be a or rather become a Personal Protection Dog?


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## Raizo

*To Jessiewessie99:* I suppose partially because I want the reassurance that my dog will be able to assess the situation and act accordingly if they need to. If I can be absolutely sure that my dog will protect me if I'm honestly in any danger, then I guess I don't have to go the extra ten miles to train them for protection work (which sounds like a heck of a lot of work, from what I've been reading). I suppose what I'm looking for is more of a guarantee that I'll have someone to trust/rely on in any kind of dangerous situation I might be thrown into. 

Nothing is set in stone as of yet though, even the breed of dog I could be getting (Dad keeps pushing for a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd). However, I'll keep talking with my family to discuss if it's TRULY necessary for me to get a protection dog/train a dog for personal protection, and I will get back to you all. =) I appreciate everyone's input and advice nonetheless. It's really been helpful to me.


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## Raizo

*To KZoppa:* Oh YES. I can definitely tell! In personality I'm quite fond of Zena, but in overall appearance, I think I'm favoring the smaller, lighter Shelby. They're both so pretty though.


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## crisp

I think its important to distinguish between the different types of protection work. If you are interested in a dog that will bark when strangers walk by the house, then sure, all GSDs are great. The same can not be said for a dog that will go through protection training and be counted on to attack on command, etc.


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## KZoppa

Raizo said:


> *To KZoppa:* Oh YES. I can definitely tell! In personality I'm quite fond of Zena, but in overall appearance, I think I'm favoring the smaller, lighter Shelby. They're both so pretty though.


 
you can find a GSD with Shelby's build and Zena's personality. Its harder to do but it is possible. I can tell you for a fact though that the food requirements for my girls is only different because Shelby isn't spayed therefore her metabolism is slighly higher. But Zena is a chow hound. when she's home with us she'll get about 2 cups a day. When she's with my inlaws like now, she's only getting about 1 cup a day. She's pretty lazy most of the time but boy when she wants to, she's got the energy of a puppy. Both Shelby and Zena are great with kids. Zena learned commands pretty quickly whereas Shelby has been a little slower but i attribute that to the fact she's a year old and therefore still a puppy so is kinda scatter brained. I would definitely suggest to talking with some of the workling line breeders on this site and see if they have any suggestions for you. Its very possible that they'll be able to help you find a dog with the lighter build but the working drive.


This is Zena when my daughter was about 7 or 8 months old. one of the previous pictures is my daughter with Zena when my daughter at 2 years old. Zena is about 6 or 7 years old. in that picture.


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## onyx'girl

Raizo said:


> *To Jessiewessie99:* I suppose partially because I want the reassurance that my dog will be able to assess the situation and act accordingly if they need to. If I can be absolutely sure that my dog will protect me if I'm honestly in any danger, then I guess I don't have to go the extra ten miles to train them for protection work (which sounds like a heck of a lot of work, from what I've been reading). I suppose what I'm looking for is more of a guarantee that I'll have someone to trust/rely on in any kind of dangerous situation I might be thrown into.
> 
> Nothing is set in stone as of yet though, *even the breed of dog I could be getting (Dad keeps pushing for a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd).* However, I'll keep talking with my family to discuss if it's TRULY necessary for me to get a protection dog/train a dog for personal protection, and I will get back to you all. =) I appreciate everyone's input and advice nonetheless. It's really been helpful to me.


Your dad really needs to research these breeds. Mals and Dutchies are _very, very_ high energy and not so easy for a newbie to train. They are even a handful for experienced handlers.
Any one of the breeds you are interested in will be a deterrent, but crazy criminals will take out a dog if they are determined. The dog should just be able to give you time to get out your gun if you are placed in such a situation. I would keep researching as much as possible, take your time look at different bloodlines. 

Go to Schutzhund(not SchuLtshund) clubs around you. OH & PA have several, driving a couple hours to a club is the norm...


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## Whiteshepherds

Raizo said:


> I suppose partially because I want the reassurance that my dog will be able to assess the situation and act accordingly if they need to. *If I can be absolutely sure that my dog will protect me if I'm honestly in any danger, then I guess I don't have to go the extra ten miles to train them for protection work* (which sounds like a heck of a lot of work, from what I've been reading). *I suppose what I'm looking for is more of a guarantee that I'll have someone to trust/rely on in any kind of dangerous situation I might be thrown into.*


From the sounds of it you're looking for a dog that doubles as a bodyguard, is that right?

GSD's are naturally protective but not to the extent you might be thinking about unless they've been trained extensively. 
Are you willing or in a position to wait out the time it takes to train your own dog or are you looking for one that's already trained?


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## bocron

Currently we (my family) owns 7 German Shepherds. 4 from working lines and 3 from showlines. All are currently at some stage in Schutzhund training. (Our youngest is a 15week old bitch, the oldest is a 9yo male). The 3 showline dogs are our first non-working line dogs ever. Long story, but we imported a SchH1 female for some friends and they decided they wanted to breed her (she is Kkl 1). While looking into studs, it is hard to find a way to mix working and showlines so we ended up breeding her to a nice showline male here in town that had already been bred to a 3/4 sister of the female we had so we could get an idea of what we would get. The showline dogs are a bit less "hard" and are great dogs for a novice trainer (we gave one to our 13yo daughter who is working toward a SchH1). The working line dogs are a bit more to handle, but are more fun (for us) to work. I think the true secret to finding the right dog for your situation is to visit some SchH clubs, and get idea of what you are looking for. Get to know breeders, find one who understands and supports what you are looking for in a dog and then hope for the best. Sorry to say, but once the pup leaves the breeder, the rest is really up to you, your ability to raise the pup and your desire to put the work into it. I've seen pups from fabulous breedings become skittish idiots as well as pups from so-so parentage become great ambassadors for the breed. The handler and the training can absolutely make or break it.
Annette


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## Whiteshepherds

bocron said:


> Sorry to say, but once the pup leaves the breeder, the rest is really up to you, your ability to raise the pup and your desire to put the work into it. I've seen pups from fabulous breedings become skittish idiots as well as pups from so-so parentage become great ambassadors for the breed. The handler and the training can absolutely make or break it.
> Annette


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## JKlatsky

If you are truly interested in getting a man- stopper you shouldn't buy a puppy. The reality is (and K9 departments can tell you) most dogs do not have what you need to really stop a determined attacker and you cannot really make a good evaluation on a puppy. Chances are you can put 2+ years into the work and you might get a confident dog that's great with the kids, will bark at intruders, but not be the kind of dog you can send on an attacker. Or you might end up with WAY more dog than your family wants to deal with. If every German Shepherd was capable of advanced PPD work, you wouldn't see so many washed out dogs in K9 and military programs. And really what you are looking for- a dog with all the guts of a Military/Police dog but with the livability of the family companion- well they're not a dime a dozen. Yes Shepherds should be stable protective members of the household. The reality? Well it's a little different. 

My SchH3 dog has great confidence, solid nerves, great with kids, and probably perfectly capable of protecting himself. The Problem? So confident and well socialized that he doesn't really perceive threats. Walking with him down a dark street usually means that I have to rely on his appearance alone. Sometimes I'll see someone and get a little nervous...he usually looks at me like- HELLLO Mom, it's just a person what's the big deal?? I'm pretty sure I'd have to be under attack before he caught on that we were in a dangerous situation. My younger male is sharper. He is more quick to perceive threats, easier to make sound off and probably a better PPD candidate. He is not the kind of dog I would let hang around unpredictable children or strangers- at least not at this point. 

I would check out Leerburg's forum on PPDs. I think there's some good advice on selecting a PPD, vendor, and trainer. Because you will HAVE to have a trainer to even hope to train a PPD. So your best bet is to find that person first, and then use them to help you find the dog. 
Leerburg.com Discussion Forum: Personal Protection Dog Training

This is a post on PPDs that I think makes some good points.


> Question:
> "What do I need to consider before I get a PPD?"
> and
> "Are you saying that if someone were to come into my house that a sport trained dog might not get the job done? "
> 
> 
> 
> The answer to that is - it depends.
> 
> Most criminals are looking for victims, not sparring partners, and the threat of a dog barking ( or a firearm ) will almost always make them seek easier prey.
> So just a dog barking is a deterrent, and even a pet can fulfill this need ( a good sport dog may indeed bite an intruder, but you'll never be sure, and if you need a set level of security you are going to have to train that dog further, or get a different dog.
> 
> The real question arises when you are dealing with a determined attacker - then all bets are off. Most dogs can be driven off by a determined attacker and in that case you need one of the rare dogs with the willingness to engage and fight - and this will give you enough time to escape, call for help, or get to your firearms and deal with the problem in a more serious manner.
> 
> Most of the so called "ppds" sold by so many of these amateur trainers would not do their job in a real fight, but they can bark at an intruder.....the only downside here is...why pay 10k for a dog that won't do the work?
> If clients would only test these so called "ppds" correctly, these bogus kennels and trainers would dry up and stop scamming folks.
> 
> So if you are in *real* danger and are looking for a PPD, you want a dog that first and foremost will *stop* the bad guy, and everything else is a secondary consideration.
> I usually only see this type of urgency with "overseas" sales, i.e., the dogs are going to a 2nd or even 3rd world location where they have a serious job to do. I have sold a few of these type dogs in the U.S. ( and own one myself ) but they usually go to the un-named Government agencies.
> 
> Most Americans do not want ( nor are they willing to modify their life style to own ) a real PPD. They want a dog that will alarm bark and possibly ( but no real guarantee ) bite the bad guy, but when you get right down to it, they will trade livability for protection - I see it all the time.
> 
> A common thing that a vendor sees is a woman that is being stalked and is in a panic and makes a bad decision to buy a PPD - they end up with too much dog and when the situation calms down they want to get rid of the dog, ASAP.
> 
> I actually had a potential client ( back when I was a vendor ) that was considering a dog from me, but they ended up buying a dog from someone that I had previously had a good opinion of. Well, naturally the woman changed her mind and wanted to give the dog back to the trainer that she had bought it from - who now would not even return the woman's phone calls ( he's off my list of recommended vendors, needless to say ).
> For some reason the woman called me then for advice ( and I wondered to myself..."why call me? You didn't even buy *my* dog!" ) and the only thing I could tell her was to try and sell the dog. I never did end up hearing what happened in the end, but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.
> Sadly, that's a far more common occurrence that you'd think.
> 
> So I would tell anybody that was thinking of getting a PPD to stop and think *hard* about what adding a defensive dog will do to your lifestyle, and to make **** sure that you are willing to make the life style accommodations to suit getting a PPD.
> Or be happy with the decision to get a lesser dog and feel good about it - even a bark alert increases your personal security, just don't play that common game of fooling yourself that the dog will stop the bad guy at the dog - it most likely won't.
> 
> Here's a question that I always asked my clients that were looking for a PPD - do you own a gun? If they said no, they didn't need a dog from me and that ended the potential sale. It's all about life style changes and the willingness to make them.
> 
> 
> Question:
> "Is there an advantage to getting a puppy and getting him trained, or should I go for an adult dog?
> 
> 
> Mostly disadvantages, if you're looking for a real PPD.
> 
> All puppies are a crap shoot, no matter how well you do a temperament evaluation, the puppy may mature into a dog that just doesn't have what it takes to be an effective PPD.
> Plus, you have hips and the such to worry about, I've scrapped out many a promising pup due to health issues that only surfaced as the dog matures.
> 
> I always told most clients to concentrate on an 18 to 24 month old dog with no training issues - do a hard evaluation at that time and if the dog passes, it's worth putting the time and money into training it as a PPD ( you might notice from my standpoint that a PPD candidate is *not* a sport or Police Canine washout - you see that waaaay too often with many vendors, and that sucks. )


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## JKlatsky

Oh and incidentally, personally, I would not go the Mal/Dutch Shepherd route. Everyone sees them and thinks they MUST be outstanding because they're more drivey than the Shepherds. 

My feeling is that while Shepherds seem to be more likely than the Mals/Dutchies to have drive problems or health problems...I feel like for every good Mal/Dutchie I've seen...I've also seen one with nerve issues. 

Just saying that they're not the super wonder dogs everyone seems to think they are.


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## mjypzz

I bet I can get past your PPD with a nice 10 ounce raw prime rib. 

Anyway, just cause you get a pup/dog from working lines doesn't mean they can do the work. Working lines have their fair share of companion only dogs. Since puppies even from working lines are a crapshoot, it's better to get a young dog that shows it can work.


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## volcano

how is a pups working ability judged? my girl is only 13 weeks.


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## wolfstraum

I have had very good success with combining the "type" - WGR/Belgian working lines, DDR and Czech....no the prey drive is not so crazy that the dogs are hectic, but they still like to have a ball in their mouths and have excellent retrieve drives....the males have been powerful and strong so far...the dogs are not prey monsters, but have more than enough prey drive to start training as pups....they also are super house dogs with inherent protection/alert instincts...there is one young male who has been trained and evaluated by a world level trainer who feels that male could be top sport with the right handler (ie - not the owner LOL)....yet he is a house dog, good with cats and chickens!

I really like the combo of bringing the DDR into the mix of the the WGR/Belgian lines....I plan on doing that in the near future as well as I think it can create a very balanced dog who can do sport, excel at it, and still be a family companion...

Lee


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## carmspack

agree with Wolfstraum as that is the combination I have lately .


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## wolfstraum

ahhh - this is a nearly 3 year old thread that a newbie resurrected - To Volcano - you need to start a new thread....Both carmen and my replies were directed at the original questions....

Lee


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## volcano

Oops, I mustve been doing research to find this old thread.


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## Typhoon

So is this your first GSD ever?

I ask because if it is, you'd do well to understand just what you're taking on, and to understand that while this board is a great source of information, it's also pretty significantly biased in favor of working lines.

Myself, when we bought our last pup, I thought long and hard about a working line, but in the end, both at my stage in life, and as much as I travel, leaving my wife alone with the dog, I wasn't sure a dog with that much drive would be a good fit.

So we got a West German Showline and I can tell you, he's far, far, far from a couch potato. A good bit of what people write here about working lines and their drive I could apply to Ranger as well. In fact, if I could dial his drive down by about 20%, I'd probably be tempted. (Not to say I'd do it, but when he's whining and pushing his tattered old tug rope at me and I just want to stretch out on the couch, yeah...I'd be tempted.)

Point I'm making is that if you get one of these dogs, you can't turn them off and put them in the closest for awhile. They're on all the time.

If you've got no experience with the breed, just make good and sure you know what you're getting into.


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## Castlemaid

As pointed out, three year old thread, OP long gone. No need to keep bumping it up.


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