# If a little dog bites and big dog bites back?



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

My friend and I were in the park, she lets her Sheltie off leash. A leashed golden walks by and her Sheltie charges the golden. Lots of snarling and barking (we couldn't see as trees were in the way). She just yells at the people walking the Golden that her dog is friendly. I scold her (not the first time).

I see lots of post on this board about small dogs charging big dogs and big dog bites and little dog bleeds. I'm wondering about legal rights/fault/responsbility etc.

So I called animal control (not on her) and asked what would happen if a small dog charged/attacked/bit Dakota and Dakota reacted with a snarl and a snap injuring the small dog. I would think that Dakota was defending herself and since their dog was not under control by either being off leash or being on an extendable leash > than 6 feet, that I would be held harmless. I'm not so sure now that I had a conversation with them. They said it would be reviewed on a case by case basis and they could not generalize. It would depend upon how many complaints they had against either dog as well as the individual circumstances.

Anyone have first hand experiences? There are a lot of little, little dogs around here being walked on 26' exteandable leashes, barking their fool little heads off.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Tell her this story that just happened this past week...

A 3 year old beautiful GSD kept attacking the neighbor's dog. In my mind it is the dog owner's responsibility to keep her dog under control and to find professional help to deal with the dog aggression.


She's not home, the GSD is not contained, she attacks the neighbors dog again, the neighbor comes home to find the neighbors had shot her dog in the head.

This was the opposite situation but the end result is absolutely tragic. 

I am NOT agreeing with the person that shot the GSD. It makes me sick and they should have called animal control long before it came to this point.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I was at the dog park about a month ago and a guy had his beagles off leash. I didn't know the story about why, but the beagles would charge every dog that got close to them. 

I did my best to avoid them as most other people in the park, but the beagles and my lucy crossed paths more than once (not a big park). The beagles would charge, snarl, growl, and Lucy would just back off. I of course would step in the middle any time they got close to eachother, but it's tough when dogs are all running around, they're bound to get close to eachother.

By about the 4th or 5th time the beagles charged my lucy, she had enough. One beagle charged, Lucy charged back. 20 pound beagle vs 70 pound shep is not much of a fight and of course the beagle lost. It only lasted about 10 seconds until i was able to break it up. I immediately grabbed lucy and started to leave - i didn't want any more fighting going on.

As i was leaving, the beagles owner kept apologizing to me even though the obvious size difference, but he knew his dogs provoked that fight. Lucy was just defending herself.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi!

I just looked this up because my dog was recently attacked by an off leash dog while we were on a walk. In Texas, the owner of the animal being attacked can legally kill the attacking dog without any liability to the owner of the attacking dog. Now, I wouldn't kill another dog if I could help it, but I would do what was necessary to get it off my dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That is all well and good if you have a well funded animal control unit that will deal with such issues. 

Take it from me, that my dogs were attacked over and over again by the neighbor's dog while I was getting them in the car. A couple of very close calls, but no actual connections. I called our dog warden dozens of times. I called the sherriff's department four or five times. At one point they told me to shoot the dog. Our dog warden actually rebuked my brother (who lives around the corner from me, for "not taking care of the problem) about a stray around his place. My brother has some livestock so the dog warden was probably surprised he didn't just go out and shoot the dog. 

If you live in a village or in a city, then you are pretty much stuck with AC. If you live in the sticks, people expect you to shoot them yourself, until you do, and then the owner whines to the press about it. 

Luckily for me but sad for her, my neighbor lost her house and took her dogs away. But that was the only way that my problem was resoved short of shooting the dog.


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## AmandaK (Apr 2, 2009)

I would think the person with the dog on the leash would not be held liable if their dog bit the other dog that was loose.

It would be an awful situation to be in no matter what! I hope your friend keeps her sheltie on a leash to keep her safe!


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

We have a leash free area on the beach where I live and everywhere else is an "on leash" area. In the on leash area, my on leash GSD was rushed four separate times by the same unleashed Bichon Frise X Maltese and even though I have stepped between my dog and this dog, the little dog would run around us trying to get access to Quynne. 

On the first two occasions the owner said "He's never done that before" - if he didn't recognise me after the first time (indicating to me that the dog had done it numerous times and he couldn't keep track of who the dog had gone for) he certainly would thereafter as he copped a verbal chastisement. 

On the third occasion, I again chased the dog away. On the fourth, I threw sand at the dog to stop it in its tracks and reported the incident to the council ranger with the man's car registration number. There was verbal abuse and swearing on both parts this time and I admitted that and the sand throwing. The ranger said that if my dog had bitten the smaller dog, my dog and I would not be considered at fault. But I replied "How come the welfare of this dog with regard to being bitten is of more concern to me than it is to the owner of the dog or to the you as the ranger." No comment!

The ranger said he would follow it up but I got a call a week later from the person who took over his duties and was told it was better to let it go this time but if it happens again call us.
















Quynne was very trustworthy with other dogs prior to these incidents even though she is not a strong nerved dog. She is very wary with little dogs now and the problems we have with our maltese and Quynne happened after these occurences - most likely not related but it did not help.

I hope this is considered on topic.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

selzer, dont feel bad I live in the city and we have well funded animal control but my cat WHO NVER LEFT THE YARD (and I have lots o fencing up) was killed in her own yard by 2 loose dogs, took a/c forever to get out here it was too late anyways. For yrs, she went out. I had never seen these dogs before. That was a horrible day
I am afraid to walk my dog, one street over we have a med size dog who jumps 6 ft fence, I have actually seen him do it. 
I have had in the past, small dogs come running up to us in a mean way, they sure can act MEAN. luckily Sash didnt grab them but after awhile unless I carried a huge stick, I didnt feel like walking him and dealing with all of this. 
Thats not right that you have to put up with your dogs being attacked by neighbors dog maybe you or your brother should take care of the problem if AC wont. I think thats the mindset in the country? geez, I would dread walking my dog out to the car if I had to face that.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I do not trust anyone as far as big against little. I always assume that if a little dog is to bite my big guys I will still get in trouble. 

My poor guys have been attacked when on leash so much by small dogs.
Lucky my GSD's are of the attitude of go away ya bother me. But my Boxer is of the attitude now of he sees little dogs and wants to get them before they get him.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

Allison- I wonder why they dont just put the little dog on a leash since they now know it will run up to large dogs????
Howdumb is that and sure stressful for you.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've had this happen to me but luckily my dogs did not bite back. I was walking Coke and Kenya (on leashes 4-6' on the SIDEwalk, I don't allow my dogs to sniff around and walk in peoples' yards) when a Beagle came out of nowhere down a driveway and latched onto Coke. Kenya jumped out of the way and just stood there on the sidewalk. Coke looked panicked and this dog kept jumping at his face and biting his neck. Luckily since he is so tall and furry he wasn't actually bit. I just sort of held his leash until the owner picked up her dog and stormed off. Good day to you too!


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: SashmomAllison- I wonder why they dont just put the little dog on a leash since they now know it will run up to large dogs????
> Howdumb is that and sure stressful for you.


As far as this man is concerned his dog would not hurt anything and deserves his freedom. The dog is untrained and does not respect the man at all.

I have to admit this dog is always immaculately groomed and it is obvious he loves the dog - but he has no clue regarding dog behaviour. There are a few agressive large dogs in this area (3 are GSDs) and if this dog approaches any of them in the same way he will be history due to his owners ignorance.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

We've been charged by a wide variety of dogs - friendly and hostile. Eskie, boston, heeler, dalmation, shilo, boxer, large yorkie like dog. My dogs have had different responses - the difficult ones were when I was walking the dogs and the horse to the land to ride. In Wyoming, most people were apologetic (and mortified) and on a few occasions (dogs got two chances) I would call animal control & have them deal with it. Here I've had one woman be very apologetic (she had her dog in the front yard, loose, with her in a bathrobe and flipflops - one of my dogs picked her dog up & shook him). Others have been apologetic the first time but let it happen again and again (after a few shouting matches, you then get a visit from animal control).


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I think part of the problem is that a lot (not all, of course) small dog owners don't learn to read dog body language.

On Luc and Teagan's run last night, there was a small dog coming down the sidewalk so we pulled off and I put them in sits. Teagan was sitting but obviously excited. The owner was like 'oh look! that dog wants to play!!!'

All I could think was, 'yeah lady, Teagan does want to 'play' with your dog....that muzzle she's wearing? It ain't for show!' 

But I was disturbed that was is to me an obviously aggressive dog (albeit a behaving obviously aggressive dog) was not flagged as such by the owner. 

Slightly off-topic, but I do think a big part of it is not understanding dog body language or dog-on-dog interaction, and with small dog owners, I think it's b/c what their dogs can inflict is so minimal in comparison to larger dogs, it often doesn't get learnt.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Jarn, you are right about people not being able to read a dog's body language. I don't claim to be able to do it well, but I can see many signs. 

On this same walk with my friend and her Sheltie a man was coming up the paved park walkway with two mini pins, both of which were straining and pulling on the long retractable leashes. My friend said, "it looks like those dogs want to play". My comment was no, those dogs look aggressive to me, look at the body language, they are barking and snarling, their stance has changed. - they don't want to play. I took the opportunity and put Dakota in a down stay, she followed (she is working on obedience with my help). Both the GSD and the Shelite were in down stays side by side. The man walked by with his snarling, pulling min pins and as he passed he said thank you to us. I kept my comment to myself - I did this exercise for my dog's benefit, not his.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey, even in NYC, the police don't care if dogs are attacking other dogs. Did you ever read the famous story of the dog Bonny who was almost killed by a pack of dogs there?

http://nymag.com/nymetro/urban/pets_animals/features/9986/

"Eight months ago, if you’d told me I’d be obsessed with a little old Greek guy and fantasizing about killing his dogs, I’d have said you were nuts. If you’d said a little old Greek guy’s pack of eight junkyard dogs had been roaming the streets of midtown for years attacking people and tearing apart their dogs while city officials said, “Sorry, that’s not our problem,” I’d have called you a conspiracy theorist. A pack of wild dogs? In Manhattan? Never happen. Boy, would I have been wrong."

Looks like the story has been truncated at 2 pages. It used to be about 5 pages with more detail about what happened to the dog and the pack of dogs.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

The ONLY way to be SURE about the outcome with LE is if YOU handle the charging dog, not your dog. We're talking about small dogs here, so when faced with that situation treat them like soccer balls with fur. If the big bad GSD bites the charging rat everything is open to interpretation whether you like it or not. Were there witnesses? If not, it's your word against the owners. I just really don't trust anyone at all in that situation. According to the law, dogs are property and have no rights. I can literally do anything to protect myself when it comes to a loose dog and I will not face one bit of consquences - but if it's my dog that acts it's exactly the opposite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good point. If I get bit by a charging cocker spaniel, the owner is in trouble. If my dog bites a charging cocker spaniel, I get in trouble.


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## tony123 (Mar 1, 2009)

I never realized what an issue this would be, but Dharma is now 6 months old and it has happened a few times already. Here's a post I had posted elsewhere, but it's a recent Chihuahua story. 

At the park this past weekend. It's a small park and there were about a dozen people there, two of which had other dogs...all small breeds. So I kept my distance with Dharma out of respect for the other dogs space and because she's barking at dogs now and I didn't want to be embarassed. So after a half hour of sitting and watching, Dharma was doing great. I decided to walk around a bit. We did a lap around the track and then walked past a man on a bench with a Pomeranian and a Chihuahua. Dharma let out a bark and I corrected. She stopped. It was great training! The Pomerianian starts barking like she's got a point to prove and Dharma holds steady. Good girl! Next thing I know, there's a Chihuahua on top of us and about to get into it with Dharma. So I kick the Chihuaua off. Not as hard as I could have, but she got my point and backed up. Another lady came up and helped calm down matters. All the while, the man on the bench, that owned the dog, never got up.....HE JUST WATCHED!

After I went to the other side of the park and sat down I felt like a heel for not having chewed him out about controlling his dog. But the moment had passed.

Anyway, I was shocked at the resolve Dharma showed. She was much calmer than I was through the whole thing.


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