# Picking an independant puppy



## paintedwildd (Apr 4, 2012)

My friend is picking up her puppy tomorrow from the breeder. It's her first dog and she's not at all experienced with handling dogs in general. I work with the Bull Terrier breeds and I offered to help her out since I have a lot of knowledge but I have no experience dealing with the guarding instinct present in a GSD. 

So I accompanied her to the breeders house and there is only one black and tan male which is exactly what she wanted but the dog is very uninterested, independant and doesn't want to play. The rest of the girls are hyper, social and lovely pups, i'd snatch them up in a heartbeat if the pup was for me. My instinct tells me she can't handle the male and she should get a female, but her family is adamant about this puppy just because it's a male and they don't want 'periods'.

What would you guys suggest I can do to try and ensure she picks the right pup? If I can't change her mind, how would we best train and socialise an uninterested puppy?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd rather have one with more pack drive...easier to train. 
Did the breeder pick out this male pup for your friend, or is it the only male? I would want the breeders input/eval as you are just seeing a snapshot of the pup at the moment.
If the females are very gregarious, it may be he is just inhibited by all their estrogen! His personality may come out when he's separated from his female pack-mates.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

What did the breeder say? Was that normal behaviour for that puppy?


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## paintedwildd (Apr 4, 2012)

I feel the same way, I always choose the pup that wants to please you, especially since we wanted my bitch and her pup to be playmates.

They said he's pretty much always like that, he doesn't mind attention but just doesn't seek it from people. They think he will come out of his shell once he is settled in his new home so hopefully that will be the case and he's just swamped by the other pups! They are kind of not giving much input and leaving the decision to my friend.

Theres 3 other white males as well which are just as playful as the females, its just this one male that is nowhere to be seen, or doing his own thing. We are going back tomorrow to assess his personality away from the other pups and see if theres anything to get him motivated like toys or treats. We're also bringing my dog along to see how they suit.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

paintedwildd said:


> , but her family is adamant about this puppy just because it's a male and they don't want 'periods'.


There's a simple fix for that. 

Also, if none of the puppies from this litter will suit, there _are _other breeders in the world. Better to wait and go with another breeder than to spend the next 12-15 years with a dog that wasn't what you wanted, or dump him at the shelter after 8 months.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

This is like wading through a swamp of red flags. The "breeder" should know the temperaments of each individual pup and if they can't give your friend any input, I'd head for the hills. The male might come out of his shell or he might be a very difficult dog with many problems. It's one thing to have this independent attitude toward people in a breed like a foxhound, not at all aggressive, but in a breed that has been bred to stand up to angry sheep, to take down offenders, to protect its owners, to make intelligent decisions, biddability and closeness to humans is a requirement. 

There are many people on here, myself included, who have taken on problem dogs. IT. IS. NOT. FUN. I took my dog out to the pet store to work on socialization and it took us about 20 minutes just to walk in the door. I couldn't do much of anything except watch the environment, ask people not to approach, keep an eye on the kids, move away from potential situations, all the while trying to stuff food down Renji's mouth to associate all these things with something good. I love my dog, but does your friend really want to risk dealing with this? 

Bitches are easy to deal with, as already mentioned. Spay her before the first heat or, if your friend can resist the temptation, spay before her second heat.

Good luck!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Even a GSD puppy with a more desirable temperament is a handful and a half or more...they are *not* the easiest puppies to raise!

You may want to convince her to wait because this is a 10 to 12 year investment and a few months won't matter! We have some good sticky notes on how to select a responsible breeder in the puppy section. Also many of us rely on a knowledgable breeder to select the puppy based on our level of experience and the expectations of life for the puppy. A good breeder will turn down a sale if they can't get you the puppy you need. 

I actually rejected a free puppy with a nice pedigree offered to me as a working prospect because he did not care to engage me and interact with me during a few visting sessions.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Independence is not the worst thing I like it to a degree in a working dog. For a family pet though I would not go with an independent dog.

My guy is very independent and I didn't feel like we had a relationship until he was 6 months old (not the best first puppy raising experience). I got him at 7.5 weeks. It was like I didn't exist for those first few months. He wanted to explore and check everything else out and didn't care at all where I was. Once our relationship developed things have been good but he has been a challenge. I had to do a lot of very specific things and work really hard for that relationship. I definitely do not recommend it for someone who is inexperienced and who has no need for an independent dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have two independent dogs and they are not very trainable. 
The OP's post about the whites makes me wonder if the pedigree is a mix of lines? What drew you to this litter/breeder? 
I agree with Emoore, many breeders to choose from, don't box yourself in(friend) because of timing or male situation. Sometimes waiting is a better option, even if it doesn't seem so at the time.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

So black and tans are in the same litter as whites? I'm no expert but does this really happen often?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

sashadog said:


> So black and tans are in the same litter as whites? I'm no expert but does this really happen often?


It's not that uncommon.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Emoore said:


> It's not that uncommon.


Huh. You learn something new everyday I guess.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I have a gsd that can be rather independent and that, in my experience, can translate into "Convince me why I should do what you want me to do, rather than what I want to do." She's smart as a whip, and when she wants to learn something it doesn't take her any time at all, but you have to show her why she wants it too. Also, Sasha doesn't show affection in a traditional manner. I know she loves me, and I can tell she does certain things because of that, but she almost never comes to me for cuddles. She accepts that it will happen from time to time, but unless she's sick she has no desire for it generally. I think it takes a certain understanding and patience to bond with dogs like this. She's my girl, she loves me and is excited every time she sees me, but she can be a handful.


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## paintedwildd (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks for all the advise guys. I'm going to show my friend what work she's got cut out for her and maybe try one last time to convince her to get a girl or a white male or to just leave it all together.

I was thinking the same thing, that for a guarding breed and with the dog being intended as a companion, house dog and to be in parks often with lots of people and balanced dogs it doesn't sound like a good match.

@onyx'gir yea the pups are a mix of a KC registered white female and an unregistered male. What has drawn us to this breeder is that their dogs have beautiful conformation, nice straight backs, they are lean around 35kg and have good drive which is extremely hard to find around here. Most dogs here that are full KC registered have severe hip dyplasia, no drive at all and they just hobble behind their owners.


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

I have an independent rescue Great Pyr. mix and he has been the absolute most difficult dog of my entire life. I would never, ever willingly choose a puppy that was uninterested in people--I cannot begin to explain how hard that makes training and just living with a dog who gives you nothing back in return. He never comes to me for petting, will choose whether or not listening to a command suits him, and is generally a jerk of a dog. My husband and I joke all the time that he would be a perfect farm dog in which he could roam until his heart is content and show up on the porch for food and then turn around and leave again. Yes, that's what my independent dog is like--its no fun.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

_just living with a dog who gives you nothing back in return.....is generally a jerk of a dog. _

I have not had an independent dog, but I did have a cat that sounds just like your description. It was actually a bit depressing for me to live with him, take care of him, and feel like there was NO bond.  I have never had a pet like that before, and hope I never will again. Dakotasmom - your post made me smile because "jerk" is exactly what I called him in my mind (usually daily!).


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

LaneyB said:


> Dakotasmom - your post made me smile because "jerk" is exactly what I called him in my mind (usually daily!).


Yes, he's just like a CAT! Exactly, good point. But yeah, when its snowing and -20 degrees and I'm calling and calling for him to come and this stupid dog will not come in the house but rather wants to bark and howl like a wild animal and then I have to go after him in that weather--yes, he's a jerk!


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## SteveTheDog (Jan 30, 2012)

When i went to pick up my boy he was the only one who would hang back look at everything and then decide to either include himself or not. Not sure if would be considered "independent" or just chill, but he is now 4 months and is very social. He still, when things are happening, will assess what is going on then decide what he wants to do. When he wants to be assertive he will, but he'll also say "fawk it" and let it go down without him too. He is very smart and very easy to train.


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Also, if none of the puppies from this litter will suit, there _are _other breeders in the world. Better to wait and go with another breeder than to spend the next 12-15 years with a dog that wasn't what you wanted, or dump him at the shelter after 8 months.


I love this quote.

When I went to pick up my girl, she was very independent and was even wandering the streets (BYB). Fortunately, it was a very slow area so there wasn't any ongoing traffic. She paid no attention to us but would tolerate us picking her up and petting her but she would rather go out and play by herself. She's now 15 months and is very much my Velcro dog and everything I wanted.


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## paintedwildd (Apr 4, 2012)

So here's an update: After bringing the pup home it seems that he is definitely going to be a handful. He's very attached to his owner (my friend) but is extremely stubborn, won't focus unless a treat is right in his face and doesn't seem to respond to any verbal or physical deterrants such as a loud 'no!', a tap on the nose or holding his scruff. He's already showing signs of dominance such as humping his owners leg, nipping, staring her down. 

There is also a lot of guarding going on, he won't let anyone in the room where he sleeps and goes mad when there's a knock on the door. Is this normal so early on?
Any advise on dealing with him would be much appreciated!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Instead of doing the nose thump or scruff, have your friend redirect the pup. Don't fight with a baby puppy!!!

If she doesn't think this is a good fit, best to return pup now before she gets too attached. 
A baby puppy guarding? Goes mad when someone knocks? I think the pup is misunderstood! How about a crate, that would be the pups safe place.

Is the owner doing much for exercise/ flirtpoles are great for baby pups, a tired pup is a good pup.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

not letting anyone in a room where he sleeps?? no not typical behavior for an 8 week old.

Your friend has most likely made a big mistake getting 'this' puppy. I guessI would say to her, "is having the color you want worth having a potential BIG problem with your dog in the future?"

If I were her, I'd return him, and look elsewhere, she can 'get' color AND temperament she only has to look. Sounds like your friend did an impulse buy, and is sacrifycing(Sp) a good dog just because of color


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

Well, yes, you've got some red flags but this was evident prior to bringing puppy home too. You're a great friend, but unfortunately, you cannot help those who are not ready/willing to be helped. She wants justification that with time and training, she can "fix" this puppy. May or may not happen. And with this puppy and your friends "methods", looks like a very poor fit and low odds of success.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The nipping is SOP for a shepherd puppy. They are very very bitey puppies and the best way to manage that is to redirect the bite to a toy. She should ALWAYS have soft toys in her pockets

I don't think 8 weeks can be stubborn or dominant but I would worry about his nerve base if he is going ballistic with people entering his space. Hopefully she did not do the introduction of cast of thousands and chaos to the puppy and kept things mellow. He could just be stressed out.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Where are you located? It seems you are not from the US?




> but her family is adamant about this puppy just because it's a male and they don't want 'periods'.


You can get around that with a spay - but I doubt I'd direct this owner to the "hyper" female puppies either.
Tell her to bring the puppy back or if you have German Shepherd Rescues where you are, give it to one if the breeder does not take puppies back.


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## paintedwildd (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. I had already suggested a crate and we bought a small fabric one yesterday, introducing him slowly because he hates being confined. Hopefully that will help with guarding and get him used to separation from his owner. I also suggested positive reinforcement is her best bet, to redirect any negative behaviour and she's bringing him down today so I can teach her how to do it. There are 3 puppy training classes we're looking into and once his vaccinations take effect we can get a proffessional's opinion. 

We updated the breeder about him and they started freaking out saying we are not looking after him properly, he is a puppy and shouldn't be expected to act like an adult dog. They said we could take him back on monday and my friend gets her money back but obviously she's reluctant because they've bonded now.

I know he's a puppy and he could grow out of things but surely a well balanced puppy should want to learn and not be showing these signs so early on?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Take the pup back and get a refund would be my advice. A fabric crate will not contain the pup, so I'd return that before it gets destroyed. Have your friend do a bit more research on puppy raising so she can do right by the next one she chooses. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but it just doesn't sound like this pup will be set up to succeed. Is this owner young, and the pup has to stay in her bedroom or something?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> They said we could take him back on monday and my friend gets her money back but obviously she's reluctant because they've bonded now.


Do it. Insist however you must that she return the puppy. It'll be tougher when he's 8mos. old and is completely *screwed up*.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you can convince your friend that it is really best for her to return him then invite her over here. We have TONS of GSD puppy stuff and so many wind up in shelters because they are EASY until 8 or 9 months. Then the real work comes and you have a 60-70lb demon with a mouth full of teeth on your hands. This is an excellent dog breed but not for the uninitiated.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You don't "bond" that quickly. The bond takes time and work. She's infatuated with the puppy. She needs to return it and get a more suitable dog.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Return the pup and be grateful the breeder is willing to take him and give a refund! 
I never did see where you are from? Depending on where you are located, people on here might be able to suggest some other breeders, etc. 
Have your friend do some reading on pup selection and raising. 
These are free so there is no reason not to look into them!
Free Downloads | Dog Star Daily


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## paintedwildd (Apr 4, 2012)

We are in London, UK. We got the fabric one, just to act as a den and for potty training because he'll quickly outgrow it, as temporary action before we find a proper metal crate with a divider. She's definitely done her research and is willing to do everything to keep the puppy and raise him into a good dog, but we just need all the help we can get.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Can she join the forum??


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

paintedwildd said:


> We updated the breeder about him and they started freaking out saying we are not looking after him properly, he is a puppy and shouldn't be expected to act like an adult dog. They said we could take him back on monday and my friend gets her money back but obviously she's reluctant because they've bonded now.


 Please, please listen to the breeder! I would be freaking out too if I heard how my puppy was handled by your friend... Puppies are full of energy, curious, pushing all buttons they can find on you, jumping, chasing, and yes, nipping and caring less about your yelling because yelling is fun, too. 8 weeks dominant puppy staring the owner down, gimme a break.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

The pup could be a great pup in the right hands or it could have issues but bottom line, this is a VERY bad match and the pup needs to go back to the breeder. A good breeder would have taken steps to ensure this match would never have been made to begin with.

If an 8 week old pup is keeping adult humans out of a room, I'd give pause. The pup could have something wrong or could be a very tough, strong dog that already is getting its owner on edge. In any case, this pup needs an experienced handler, especially if your friend is letting the pup get its way by controlling room access.


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## sddeadeye (Apr 5, 2011)

I have to agree with everyone here. I've been there. Done that. I had an Aussie with nerve issues which came out mostly in the form of fear aggression in our case. No matter how many behaviorists, vets, and dog trainers we took him too, there was no change. We ended up surrendering him to a rescue as one of his main triggers was small children and we had an infant in our home.

At some point, you have to sit back and view the situation objectively and really think about what is best for both the dog and household in the long run. In this case, based solely on the information provided, I really believe the owner has gotten in a little over her head with this particular pup. I do not mean any offense by that. It has happened to me as well, but I also learned a great deal from that dog and what I really needed to be looking for in our next pup.


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