# German shepherd breed, lets keep them original with a straight back



## GSDhistorian

I never understood why showline breeders went for an angulated back on GSD.. that is not what the German shepherd breed is supposed to be.. they were bred to be a well rounded, solid, muscular dog with a straight back. Many professionals have stated hip problems in GSD are more common in the slant back showline breeds because the angulation puts pressure on the hips and i believe it as any working line GSD i have had had great hips. Keep the breed as it should be.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

I agree. It's sad they put the dog's health in jeopardy for looks. :-(


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## martemchik

GSDhistorian said:


> I never understood why showline breeders went for an angulated back on GSD.. that is not what the German shepherd breed is supposed to be.. they were bred to be a well rounded, solid, muscular dog with a straight back. Many professionals have stated hip problems in GSD are more common in the slant back showline breeds because the angulation puts pressure on the hips and i believe it as any working line GSD i have had had great hips. Keep the breed as it should be.



You have no idea what you're talking about.

There is no proven correlation between line and hip health as the whole breed is taken as a whole and none of the health registries keep track of lines. On top of that, the reason there is a slanted back is due to the angulation of the joints in the back legs. It has nothing to do with the fit of the hip joint. It's actually usually caused by the angle of the hock, and that's why the back end tends to be lower than the withers.

So when you decide to make these kinds of statements, please do your research and don't be as ambiguous as you are in this thread.

PS...I have two of those "straight backed" working lines, so don't think I'm saying this because you've offended me. I'm saying it because your information needs to be more correct before you spread it for others to read and believe.


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## lhczth

The structure of the spine (back) has nothing to do with the structure of the hip joint. If you said that there is a correlation between spinal issues and the structure of the spine you might have more of a case.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Clarify*



martemchik said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> There is no proven correlation between line and hip health as the whole breed is taken as a whole and none of the health registries keep track of lines. On top of that, the reason there is a slanted back is due to the angulation of the joints in the back legs. It has nothing to do with the fit of the hip joint. It's actually usually caused by the angle of the hock, and that's why the back end tends to be lower than the withers.
> 
> So when you decide to make these kinds of statements, please do your research and don't be as ambiguous as you are in this thread.
> 
> PS...I have two of those "straight backed" working lines, so don't think I'm saying this because you've offended me. I'm saying it because your information needs to be more correct before you spread it for others to read and believe.


So you are saying that there are no breeders that breed gsd's to have the slanted back look?


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## Debanneball

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> So you are saying that there are no breeders that breed gsd's to have the slanted back look?


From what I gathered, Martem said that the angulation had to do with the hocks.. 

Stella, had straight back, disgnosed with HD @ 6 months..


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## martemchik

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> So you are saying that there are no breeders that breed gsd's to have the slanted back look?



I'm saying, it has no effect on hip health. So if you're going to make an argument based on that, it's completely irrelevant.

My GSDs have a "slanted back" depending on how they're standing or how they are stacked. One has good hips, the other has excellent as rated by the OFA. 

If you want to make a legitimate argument, you should talk more about "parallel to the ground" rather than straight. As even the show lines have straight backs...they're just not parallel to the ground in most stacked pictures.


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## Liesje

Many of the original GSDs had sway backs, not straight backs.

Anecdotally, my show line and my WGSL/WL cross both have better hips (on x-ray) than my WL did (but his were not bad either).


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## Susan_GSD_mom

GSDhistorian said:


> I never understood why showline breeders went for an angulated back on GSD.. that is not what the German shepherd breed is supposed to be.. they were bred to be a well rounded, solid, muscular dog with a straight back. Many professionals have stated hip problems in GSD are more common in the slant back showline breeds because the angulation puts pressure on the hips and i believe it as any working line GSD i have had had great hips. Keep the breed as it should be.


Personally, I prefer WL dogs... BUT... I had a rescue SL boy who had the 'floating' trot, deep angles, etc.--and perfect hips. And I had a WL girl from a breeder whose dogs went primarily to LEs on the west coast, and who put it into her sale contract that every dog had to be OFA'd, etc... And my girl, who had good/excellent hips all throughout her pedigree, had bad hips. So even the best-bred WLs can have bad hips, and the most angled SLs can have good hips. Go figure!

Susan


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## DaniFani

"GSD Historian" Did you go to school for that? Are you a GSD professor? We could use one of those around here! ;-)


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## d4mmo

GSDhistorian you need to get over the media probaganda. One video on pedigree dogs and everyone is a gsd structural expert. 
There are extremes in both show and work lines. The akc is improving on the judging and selecting better dogs. The German sv is also faulting over angulation and loose ligaments. There are more wgsl than other types of gsd. Most live long happy healthy lives. 
I think those that argue really have no idea. 
No showlines aren't the original gsd in looks, and they are not as hard as wl. But there's a dog for every owner. 
People need to get over the wl vs sl because its getting old and silly, they are one breed. It usually insults forum members and there is never any actual studies backed by it, just something they watched,on YouTube.
My gsd is west German show, he has a nice typical topline and,good angulation. Just got his hips and elbow scores and they were perfect. He shows great drive and is currently training for a dog show doing 5km twice a day and shows no sign of slowing down. His been healthy since day one. But according to you he is not solid or healthy or muscular and,has hip problems?


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## LoveEcho

I'm going to go out on a limb and say 75% of people who post these rants wouldn't know what a "straight back" dog actually looked like. Angulation is not the same thing as roaching and it's not the same thing as the dog being stacked. The pictures people usually post about "old fashioned straight backed dogs" are usually swaybacked.


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## selzer

Proper angulation provides the dog with the trot that can carry him all day long in the field working. Over-angulation and under-angulation makes the dog do more work for the same distance. 

Whether what wins in the show ring is proper angulation is a debate in how people tend to interpret standards, and what judges are putting up. It really doesn't correlate with hip disease.


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## SuperG

GSDs come in many shapes and sizes and the likelihood that *all* GSDs will be breed to an exact standard..and I mean exact...is complete folly. The breed has been bastardized...just glad there are still some good breeders and dogs out there.


SuperG


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## Jax08

LoveEcho said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say 75% of people who post these rants wouldn't know what a "straight back" dog actually looked like. Angulation is not the same thing as roaching and it's not the same thing as the dog being stacked. The pictures people usually post about "old fashioned straight backed dogs" are usually swaybacked.


and that same 75% has not read the standard


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## kelliewilson

well they could google Rin Tin tin and see a straightback if they want to see what they look like


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## LARHAGE

My showline is OFA Excellent, these posts praising the soundness of the old straight backed, old fashioned, perfect dogs are pure horse poop, I agree with Liesje, those dogs were often swaybacked and long, you could lay your laundry out on their backs, to each their own, nothing I want.


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## Xeph

> well they could google Rin Tin tin and see a straightback if they want to see what they look like


Those are not dogs I would hold up as the pillars of structural integrity anymore than I would use some of the extreme show lines for such an example


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## shepherdmom

d4mmo said:


> People need to get over the wl vs sl because its getting old and silly, they are one breed.


Didn't I see a study recent posted on this forum that working lines and show lines are genetically two different dogs? 

RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different


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## d4mmo

shepherdmom said:


> Didn't I see a study recent posted on this forum that working lines and show lines are genetically two different dogs?
> 
> RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different


your mixing different with variation. two very different things. All dogs are one specie. genetic variation is a good thing as it creates a large gene pool. it is expected that they will vary with their genetics as they have been bread from separate lines. 

Thiese results will be no different if you were to run a test on people from different countries


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## martemchik

On top of that, the variation in genetics doesn't do anything for the argument as not a single health agency registers the "line" of the dog along with the health clearance. So there is absolutely no way to get any kind of data on WL/GSL/ASL hip health and see the difference.


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## Ace GSD

its funny how the OP never replied . i think this is one of those threads will not go anywhere. It will only go back and forth until the admin close it lol


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## SuperG

Me thinks.....the overall popularity of the GSD is the culprit. Go to a dog park and you will see 5-10 GSDs and rarely will any two look related....much less the standard. Compare this to less popular purebred dogs...like an Irish setter, Rough Collie, Bernese mountain dog...etc....they most all look very similar.

Like I said earlier....the GSD has been bastardized many moons ago.


SuperG


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## shepherdmom

> Originally Posted by d4mmo
> People need to get over the wl vs sl because its getting old and silly, they are one breed.





d4mmo said:


> your mixing different with variation. two very different things. All dogs are one specie. genetic variation is a good thing as it creates a large gene pool. it is expected that they will vary with their genetics as they have been bread from separate lines.
> 
> Thiese results will be no different if you were to run a test on people from different countries


Well duh a German Shepherd and a poodle are both the same species but they are two very different dogs. What I thought the study was saying is that a show shepherd and a working shepherd are also two genetically different dogs.


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## GatorDog

SuperG said:


> Me thinks.....the overall popularity of the GSD is the culprit. Go to a dog park and you will see 5-10 GSDs and rarely will any two look related....much less the standard. Compare this to less popular purebred dogs...like an Irish setter, Rough Collie, Bernese mountain dog...etc....they most all look very similar.
> 
> Like I said earlier....the GSD has been bastardized many moons ago.
> 
> 
> SuperG



:thumbup:


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## d4mmo

shepherdmom said:


> Well duh a German Shepherd and a poodle are both the same species but they are two very different dogs. What I thought the study was saying is that a show shepherd and a working shepherd are also two genetically different dogs.


A German Shepherd Dog and a poodle will differ genetically even further, but regardless the difference in DNA is minimal, WAY less than 1%. Consider that a modern domestic Dog today and a wolf differ by 1% in mitochondrial DNA. 

Regardless the article does not state the percentage of change in mitochondrial DNA rather just the actual change in DNA. Actual change in DNA only really means that they are bred from separate stock for a duration of time (which is a no brainier). It does not in any way mean they are a different breed. you will find genetic diversity even if the article was comparing just show or just work lines; just to a lesser extent.


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## Zeusthegsd143

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> So you are saying that there are no breeders that breed gsd's to have the slanted back look?


The angulation of the dogs spine has NOTHING to do with the hips. While it is discouraged to breed roach backed gsds. What you said literally was irrelevant to the hips. Straight back shepherds can also have HD.


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## SteelHelix

SuperG said:


> Go to a dog park and you will see 5-10 GSDs


I wish, not where I'm at. If anything, there's this random couple that has a puppy. Jaeger looked at her like it was a mini-me...


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## EazyEandME

I always see loads of gsd's when I would go to my local dog park! Most of them are very focused on their owner. I stopped going though after my last dog (not the foster) was bullied by some other dogs. I realized it's too much of a liability.

As to the hips, I don't know much about that. I have seen some gsd's at the dog park with a really straight back and some more sloped looking, but not sure how it would affect their hips?


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## zudnic

You can search a individual dog on the OFA site. The search results also gives the offspring results, the sire and dams results. Maybe not a whole picture because not all dogs have OFA testing done. But it does give at least a half picture on a lines genetic health. 

Like my last dog (Rottweiler), his Mother had OFA, several of her offspring also had testing, as did her parents. The breeder did have in her contract that you needed to do OFA at 24months. Still not many did. If breeders had some way of ensuring their offspring was tested and all breeding stock was tested. It would be a better tool for breeders. As it sits its only half a tool, but does give an idea of the lines breeding stock health. 

my boys mother as an example: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

My boys grand dam's and grand fathers OFA history goes back to the 80's. 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

So you could with some research determine if show lines or work lines produce better hips. OFA goes back to the 80's in most cases.


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## Whiteshepherds

zudnic said:


> So you could with some research determine if show lines or work lines produce better hips. OFA goes back to the 80's in most cases.


The database doesn't distinguish between show and working lines-they use names, registration numbers, birth dates, sex and color. It's a good thought but the statistics you can gather from the database don't speak to the whole breed, only a small portion of it. 
Not knocking the value of OFA just pointing out the problems with trying to use it to determine which lines have better hips.


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## gsdsar

Also, there is no requirement for submission. I can't tell you how many people come in for OFA and see the dog won't pass and decide not to submit. It's a flawed database.


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## zudnic

I did forget the biggest flaw, if failed, seldom do breeders submit them and therefore they are not recorded. Plus a large amount of pet homes don't do OFA at all.


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## Nikitta

Well, Jasira came from excellent OFA rated parents, grandparents etc. and when i did her OFA xrays, she came back diagnosed with mild HD. She does fine exercising and running and playing but she is only coming up on 4. I expect it to get worse. I have her on meds for it and that's also what made me decide to spay her. I'm not going to pass that along.


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## WirelessG

Stop tectonic shift before it's too late!

:hug:


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## Axel13

I feel so sorry for some of the show line dogs I see. 
Here is a picture of my working line shepherd. You won't find a dog with a straighter back and legs around


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## selzer

Axel13 said:


> I feel so sorry for some of the show line dogs I see.
> Here is a picture of my working line shepherd. You won't find a dog with a straighter back and legs around


Wow, he looks like a show line dog, mind sharing his pedigree?


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## katieliz

hips are a crap shoot. period. you can stack the deck in your favor somewhat, but the fact is you just can never be sure. and, as people here have already said, hips and "slanted" backs of ASL shepherds have nada to do with each other. nada.


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## SkoobyDoo

If their backs had anything to do with HD, Pugs wouldn't be the 2nd most affected breed for the condition!


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## Carriesue

Axel13 said:


> I feel so sorry for some of the show line dogs I see.
> Here is a picture of my working line shepherd. You won't find a dog with a straighter back and legs around


Um, do you happen to have a pedigree because based off looks your dog looks like a German showline.


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## katieliz

how can anybody tell what lines the dog looks like from that picture, the only thing I can tell is he's shedding, lolol...


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## Chip18

WOW 5 pages and so far no one has gone "postal??" Must be a slow night.


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## dogfaeries

Since I have ******, slopey ASLs, I wanted to go postal. I really did. But I just don't have the energy. I will say that Carly is OFA Good. ******, slopey ASL, and a genuine show dog.


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## Chip18

dogfaeries said:


> Since I have ******, slopey ASLs, I wanted to go postal. I really did. But I just don't have the energy. I will say that Carly is OFA Good. ******, slopey ASL, and a genuine show dog.


And "ironically" enough you have just hurled all the insults in the thread! 

My guy is working line and a "straight back" so for me that's what GSD look like.

In AKC conformation do "working line dogs" every win in conformation?? Are they every even shown??

Just asking a question here.


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## dogfaeries

Oh, huh uh. Too lazy to type all this stuff again. If you do a search of my posts/threads, I tell you everything I know about my experiences at dog shows...


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## katieliz

Chip, they are seldom shown and seldom win (seldom as in just about never or maybe never in the modern American show ring). I haven't been ringside for quite a few years now, but was throughout my entire child and young adulthood and have seen all the greats, including some imports WAY back in the day (pre-Lance). The "floating" trot is just about everything in the American show ring. A beautifully moving shepherd with balanced reach and drive, wonderful suspension, and an iron back is truly a breathtaking sight to see. Unfortunately much has been sacrificed in search of "covering the most ground with the least effort". There are still some spectacular ones around tho.


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## Baillif

They can't jump. There I said it. Health issues aside they can't jump. Used to be able to jump like malinois now they can't.


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## katieliz

omg baillif, i got some pictures of that jumping thing for you. he's gettin' up there now, at age 11, but my Cashman, in his day, could jump straight up while waiting at the doorwall, at least 4-5 feet in the air, and could easily scale a 6' fence. It has been said that the breeder of his American showline sire revolutionized and corrected the rear assemblage their branch of the line. You just cannot generalize like that. But I would agree that there's not much left of the ASL's, sadly enough. When the bloodline my parents began in the late 50's-early 60"s was gone (last frozen semen not viable), I looked for three years before I found the Cashman, and was pretty disappointed at what had become of the lines of the breed that I knew about. Back in the day, there were only American Bred dogs and imports. No distinction of German working or show lines, they were just imports...surely no Czech/DDR dogs. I'll hunt up a picture of the last BIS shepherd my parents bred, he was magnificent.


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## Baillif

There are some exceptions out there but in general they can't hurdle over a meter.


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## WesS

Baillif said:


> They can't jump. There I said it. Health issues aside they can't jump. Used to be able to jump like malinois now they can't.


I noticed this too... Its sad really. Economic motion has nothing to do with angulation.

Everyone arguing that showlines bred for angulation keep pointing out that their is no evidence to angle of hips and performance, so any theories on that causing hip dysplacia is invalid. They would be right. Maybe no evidence.

But there IS NO EVIDENCE STATING OTHERWISE EITHER. The economy of motion perspective is base-less. Sometimes people need to get it out their head that economy of motion is about chosing and deliberating breeding a certain angle. This is all marketing, its all for standardisation, Its all to make the dogs marketable at the end of the day.

You want to breed for performance? Take out the displastic dogs out. Take the dogs that cant jump out. Take the dogs that are slow out. Use tangeable performance criteria. 

Breeding specifically for lower hips, or higher hips or watever is such a strawman arguement. You breed so dogs can DO. Sometimes its better to just let nature take its course on the details. 

Breed for strong performance, breed for strong health. (i.e. remove dogs with identified medical problems.) Breed for nerve or the right drives.

Every single breed is fixated on standardising type. No, just no. I realised this recently, and I dont think I can be swayed back to think otherwise.


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## WesS

SuperG said:


> Me thinks.....the overall popularity of the GSD is the culprit. Go to a dog park and you will see 5-10 GSDs and rarely will any two look related....much less the standard. Compare this to less popular purebred dogs...like an Irish setter, Rough Collie, Bernese mountain dog...etc....they most all look very similar.
> 
> Like I said earlier....the GSD has been bastardized many moons ago.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Is that honestly a bad thing? So many of those beautifully standardised breeds you talk of, can never be white enough for the breed, or colours deep enough.

Popular breeders, need to increasingly inbreed to set type with popular dogs. Many intricately involved, at the top tiers are using white BLEACH just to make the white's more white and win shows. 

The whole situation has me more and more appalled the more I look into it.


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## shepherdmom

Baillif said:


> They can't jump. There I said it. Health issues aside they can't jump. Used to be able to jump like malinois now they can't.


Just curious why the heck would one want a German Shepherd to be able to jump like a Malinois? I don't know about others but one of the first things I teach a pup is not to jump don't jump on me don't jump on visitors just don't do it!!


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## Whiteshepherds

shepherdmom said:


> Just curious why the heck would one want a German Shepherd to be able to jump like a Malinois? I don't know about others but one of the first things I teach a pup is not to jump don't jump on me don't jump on visitors just don't do it!!


It would be embarrassing for the handler to have to stop, pick up, and then throw his K-9 over a fence so it could continue to chase the bad guy.


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## SkoobyDoo

It seems this entire thread could be summed up in these words!


> You just cannot generalize like that.


katieliz FTW


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## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Just curious why the heck would one want a German Shepherd to be able to jump like a Malinois? I don't know about others but one of the first things I teach a pup is not to jump don't jump on me don't jump on visitors just don't do it!!



The ability to jump high, and the want of the trainer to not allow jumping on people are two different things. I have dogs that can easily jump 6 feet and are contained with a 4 foot fence. Also none of them jump up on people.

The belief that just because a dog is capable to do something, it will, is a very flawed thought processes.


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## SuperG

WesS said:


> Is that honestly a bad thing? So many of those beautifully standardised breeds you talk of, can never be white enough for the breed, or colours deep enough.
> 
> Popular breeders, need to increasingly inbreed to set type with popular dogs. Many intricately involved, at the top tiers are using white BLEACH just to make the white's more white and win shows.
> 
> The whole situation has me more and more appalled the more I look into it.


Maybe this is the best way I can sum up my point....in nature, most every animal looks as it should...rabbits look like rabbits, deer look like deer, porcupines look like porcupines...and yes there are variants of many animals but each variant looks very similar to the standard of which it represents. One would be hard pressed to say..." yeah, I saw that exact same bald eagle last week" ..unless there was some visibly apparent physical anomaly taking place. Certain breeds of dogs mirror the same standardization which nature creates all on its own. Usually the dog breeds which seem to exhibit the most uniform standardization are the less popular breeds....makes sense I guess. Golden retrievers are another example similar to a GSD, until I started going to conformation shows I guess I had never seen a GR which resembled what the breed standard suggested. GRs at the shows were beautiful blocky headed deep muzzled dogs with an abundance of coat compared to the thousands I had previously seen everywhere else which looked much different.

IMHO, I believe the more popular a breed of dog becomes...the variations and deviations from the standard increase commensurately.

Oh, as far as the bleaching and cosmetics...no doubt, seen that too much and it makes me laugh. It's either an admission by the owner/handler that the dog is "inferior" superficially or is playing to the judge based on their past selections and biases. I may laugh but if that is how the game is played....so be it. Personally, I rather abhor participating in competitions involving "judges"....the clock, a finish line, a distance which can be measured, rarely has any bias hence no excuses or complaining about a crappy judge etc....to me that is my choice in competition.


SuperG


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## shepherdmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> It would be embarrassing for the handler to have to stop, pick up, and then throw his K-9 over a fence so it could continue to chase the bad guy.


:rofl::rofl:


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> The belief that just because a dog is capable to do something, it will, is a very flawed thought processes.


Apparently you missed the winky face and the grin.  I was trying to be funny.


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## misslesleedavis1

shepherdmom said:


> Just curious why the heck would one want a German Shepherd to be able to jump like a Malinois? I don't know about others but one of the first things I teach a pup is not to jump don't jump on me don't jump on visitors just don't do it!!


Lol Tyson says,
I'm all about clearing fences!!!
???


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## WesS

SuperG said:


> Maybe this is the best way I can sum up my point....in nature, most every animal looks as it should...rabbits look like rabbits, deer look like deer, porcupines look like porcupines...and yes there are variants of many animals but each variant looks very similar to the standard of which it represents. One would be hard pressed to say..." yeah, I saw that exact same bald eagle last week" ..unless there was some visibly apparent physical anomaly taking place. Certain breeds of dogs mirror the same standardization which nature creates all on its own. Usually the dog breeds which seem to exhibit the most uniform standardization are the less popular breeds....makes sense I guess. Golden retrievers are another example similar to a GSD, until I started going to conformation shows I guess I had never seen a GR which resembled what the breed standard suggested. GRs at the shows were beautiful blocky headed deep muzzled dogs with an abundance of coat compared to the thousands I had previously seen everywhere else which looked much different.
> 
> IMHO, I believe the more popular a breed of dog becomes...the variations and deviations from the standard increase commensurately.
> 
> Oh, as far as the bleaching and cosmetics...no doubt, seen that too much and it makes me laugh. It's either an admission by the owner/handler that the dog is "inferior" superficially or is playing to the judge based on their past selections and biases. I may laugh but if that is how the game is played....so be it. Personally, I rather abhor participating in competitions involving "judges"....the clock, a finish line, a distance which can be measured, rarely has any bias hence no excuses or complaining about a crappy judge etc....to me that is my choice in competition.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Good points. I actually didnt think of the fact that a bear looks like well a bear. lol. 

But still, dont think it changes much. I believe that will come naturally as you said eventually. No need to force it. No need to change, or do guesswork that smaller back legs apparently increases stamina or something silly. It just does not make sense.
If you breed faster dogs with faster dogs, they will be fast. If you breed for jumping they will jump. You don't need to measure and angulate for efficiency.

You don't need to actively standardise look. It will happen by itself then (as you pointed out). if you breed for a standard set of drives, or work, or some functional measure. 

Angulation? I dont think there is any quantifiable proof that it is superior. Let natural evolution decide that?


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## SuperG

WesS said:


> Let natural evolution decide that?


And that is the million dollar question.....does "natural evolution" include the influence of the human on other species as they evolve " naturally" ? I could argue that from either side of the fence........but then again...I just like to argue.

The first debate might be.....working line breeds will be a thing of the past as the human no longer needs them for the original intention they were bred and attributes they displayed ???


SuperG


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## shepherdmom

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lol Tyson says,
> I'm all about clearing fences!!!
> ???


lol I have a showline. Pretty sure this would be her prefered method of travel.


(random internet image)


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## Whiteshepherds

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lol Tyson says,
> I'm all about clearing fences!!!
> ???


Great timing, great picture! Is agility in Tyson's future?


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## misslesleedavis1

Whiteshepherds said:


> Great timing, great picture! Is agility in Tyson's future?


Yes actually  we will see how he does considering he was a epic fail at schutzhund lol but he's super fast and can jump like a horse.


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## Chip18

dogfaeries said:


> Oh, huh uh. Too lazy to type all this stuff again. If you do a search of my posts/threads, I tell you everything I know about my experiences at dog shows...


2000+ post seems like it would be a bit challenging to find what I'm looking for but OK.


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## Chip18

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lol Tyson says,
> I'm all about clearing fences!!!
> ???


Holly crap!!!! 

So in general not pointing out "anyone's" individual dog! The straight back dogs can't do that???


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## dogfaeries

Chip18 said:


> In AKC conformation do "working line dogs" every win in conformation?? Are they every even shown??
> 
> Just asking a question here.


I have competed against several German showlines in AKC shows, some we've beat, some we haven't. I have only shown against one working line, which did not advance beyond their class.


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## misslesleedavis1

Chip18 said:


> Holly crap!!!!
> 
> So in general not pointing out "anyone's" individual dog! The straight back dogs can't do that???



Nah I am sure they can, depends on the dog. I had a little female GSD as a foster dog that could do the same, I'm not sure if she was mixed with something (chances are highly highly unlikely ) but she was a compact fit girl.


----------



## WesS

Chip18 said:


> Holly crap!!!!
> 
> So in general not pointing out "anyone's" individual dog! The straight back dogs can't do that???


I think str. back or not... Its irrelevant. All that matters is athletic ability and health. There is no correlation to breed for angulation and performance. It just does not exist. 
They should just breed the dogs that can move better. And you dont see who can move better with inspection of angulation or a trot.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Chip18 said:


> Holly crap!!!!
> 
> So in general not pointing out "anyone's" individual dog! The straight back dogs can't do that???


Tyson happens to be built with springs in his legs lol
He can cleanly jump up a 14 ft rock face in 1 or 2 bounds, he can go over just about any fence you throw at him, he's about 75 pounds and he's very lean, healthy and super super fit.

Oh and I'm not entirely sure which lines he is, people speculate WL bit for all I know he could be a Mish mash of anything


----------



## Chip18

Geez it gets more confusing instead of less!!! 

So it seems we have "roach back" and "straight back?" Working line vs show line?? Is there also a sub set of WL with "roach back " dogs???

Temperament between the two is pretty clear. But the "structure' of the two is "confusing??" 

If the WL dogs can't win in the conformation ring?? Maybe it's time for a split?? As far as I know the "White Shepard" did it...just a thought.


----------



## dogfaeries

I'm still waiting for an explanation of what a "straight back" is. Straight topline, or a topline that is parallel to the ground? Two different things.


----------



## dogma13

I think it means parallel to the ground.Like in the photos of the first few generations of gsds before the hip angle became more pronounced.


----------



## dogfaeries

Yes. I wish someone would come up with a different, more creative name though. SuperG, I think this challenge is right up your alley...


----------



## dogma13

SOB=straight of back?


----------



## Saphire

dogma13 said:


> I think it means parallel to the ground.Like in the photos of the first few generations of gsds before the hip angle became more pronounced.


I think the confusion comes from....

Parallel to the ground when in a natural stance

Or 

Parallel to the ground when stacked.


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> Geez it gets more confusing instead of less!!!
> 
> So it seems we have "roach back" and "straight back?" Working line vs show line?? Is there also a sub set of WL with "roach back " dogs???
> 
> Temperament between the two is pretty clear. But the "structure' of the two is "confusing??"
> 
> If the WL dogs can't win in the conformation ring?? Maybe it's time for a split?? As far as I know the "White Shepard" did it...just a thought.


There are different sub-sets within the working line and show lines as well.

For example my Tasha is West German Show Line. There is also American Show Line and Canadian Show line... 

Within working line there are West German, DDR, Czech... 

Then there are whites or Berger Blanc Suissie and I don't think they are either working or show lines but I could be wrong. Maybe White Shepherds knows?

German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide

Then there is the alsatian which is another name for the German Shepherd but is also another breed?? 

I don't know seems to me like its an overwhelming amount of info one is expected to know. I don't know how anyone ever picks a breeder. Thank goodness I got my first dogs before the internet and all this info.


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> Then there is the alsatian which is another name for the German Shepherd but is also another breed??


Alsatian is a gsd. Same thing. It's not another breed. Ww2 and allied forces/countries not wanting to call their dogs 'german'.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> Alsatian is a gsd. Same thing. It's not another breed. Ww2 and allied forces/countries not wanting to call their dogs 'german'.


That's what I used to think as well. Until another thread on here. Where I learned about these dogs.

American Alsatian dogs Information and Pictures, American Alsatians


----------



## dogma13

shepherdmom said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alsatian is a gsd. Same thing. It's not another breed. Ww2 and allied forces/countries not wanting to call their dogs 'german'.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I used to think as well. Until another thread on here. Where I learned about these dogs.
> 
> American Alsatian dogs Information and Pictures, American Alsatians
Click to expand...

You're both right,unbelievable I knowThe link(gorgeous dogs!) says this is a fairly new breed.And people did call gsds Alsatains after the war.I remember reading about Alsatians in older books and articles.When I was a kid everyone called them police dogs.


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alsatian is a gsd. Same thing. It's not another breed. Ww2 and allied forces/countries not wanting to call their dogs 'german'.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I used to think as well. Until another thread on here. Where I learned about these dogs.
> 
> American Alsatian dogs Information and Pictures, American Alsatians
Click to expand...

American. Alsatian. Lol. 

Heard it all know... Did some reading.

It's not even a gsd. It was mixed with malamutes and so on. 

I like the idea of 'strong bred' instead of purebred. But it's got very suspect mixing of dogs. 

And Alsatian always meant a gsd in UK.
So this is a big time marketing troll attempt in once again building on the once meaningful gsd name.

I wish somebody would trademark these terms already.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

shepherdmom said:


> Then there are whites or Berger Blanc Suissie and I don't think they are either working or show lines but I could be wrong. Maybe White Shepherds knows?


White Shepherds and BBS aren't generally labeled as working or show lines. (always exceptions) Some work, some do conformation, some do obedience, agility etc. Jack of all trades, master of none.


----------



## shepherdmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> White Shepherds and BBS aren't generally labeled as working or show lines. (always exceptions) Some work, some do conformation, some do obedience, agility etc. Jack of all trades, master of none.


Do you know what they were originally? Were they from show or working lines or a mixture? I'm just curious.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> And Alsatian always meant a gsd in UK.
> So this is a big time marketing troll attempt in once again building on the once meaningful gsd name.
> 
> I wish somebody would trademark these terms already.


It's completely confusing. I've been on here for several years now and just when I think I'm getting it figured out someone throws something new at me.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

shepherdmom said:


> Do you know what they were originally? Were they from show or working lines or a mixture? I'm just curious.


Honestly, they don't really fit into either of those categories by today's definitions. The older white bloodlines came from the same lines as other GSD's back in the 50's and 60's (imports and domestic stock) before people labeled the dogs as working or show line to the extent they do now. 

I think saying the White Shepherds and BBS we see today are the result of years of selective breeding for traits breeders wanted in their white bloodlines, regardless of where the traits came from, (show, working, etc), would be pretty accurate. They purposely avoided over-angulation and roached backs.


----------



## shepherdmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> Honestly, they don't really fit into either of those categories by today's definitions. The older white bloodlines came from the same lines as other GSD's back in the 50's and 60's (imports and domestic stock) before people labeled the dogs as working or show line to the extent they do now.
> 
> I think saying the White Shepherds and BBS we see today are the result of years of selective breeding for traits breeders wanted in their white bloodlines, regardless of where the traits came from, (show, working, etc), would be pretty accurate. They purposely avoided over-angulation and roached backs.


Interesting. Thank you! I would like to learn more about the history and lines of the whites and BBS. Do you know where I might find that kind of information? Is there a club or ?


----------



## WesS

Whiteshepherds said:


> Honestly, they don't really fit into either of those categories by today's definitions. The older white bloodlines came from the same lines as other GSD's back in the 50's and 60's (imports and domestic stock) before people labeled the dogs as working or show line to the extent they do now.
> 
> I think saying the White Shepherds and BBS we see today are the result of years of selective breeding for traits breeders wanted in their white bloodlines, regardless of where the traits came from, (show, working, etc), would be pretty accurate. They purposely avoided over-angulation and roached backs.


I wont say regardless of where traits came from, we know how they came about, and it was influenced almost exclusively by colour. The breeding stemmed from GSD lines. The original dogs selected were completely randomised, and selected purely for colour.
In what is, or at least became over time a more and more rare occurrence of white's being born in normal litters. (Weather by the fact that its a recessive gene or by the fact that they were bred out).
So to sum up. They took rare GSD's with completely randomised qualities. (Weather they were good prospects or not, nervy or not. They all went into the white GSD/Swiss and so forth breeding lines with selection almost exclusively colour. Simply put, they had a smaller sample to chose from. Then they probably line-bred, in-bred again to solidify type. (So this happened again in these lines to different criteria).
How they are selected now is another issue. But the original dogs were obviously lacking, simply by the method in how they were matched and chosen. I would not call them GSD's at all. I think they have a better name as 'swiss shepherds'.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> I wont say regardless of where traits came from, we know how they came about, and it was influenced almost exclusively by colour. The breeding stemmed from GSD lines. The original dogs selected were completely randomised, and selected purely for colour.
> In what is, or at least became over time a more and more rare occurrence of white's being born in normal litters. (Weather by the fact that its a recessive gene or by the fact that they were bred out).
> So to sum up. They took rare GSD's with completely randomised qualities. (Weather they were good prospects or not, nervy or not. They all went into the white GSD/Swiss and so forth breeding lines with selection almost exclusively colour. Simply put, they had a smaller sample to chose from. Then they probably line-bred, in-bred again to solidify type. (So this happened again in these lines to different criteria).
> How they are selected now is another issue. But the original dogs were obviously lacking, simply by the method in how they were matched and chosen. I would not call them GSD's at all. I think they have a better name as 'swiss shepherds'.


BBS, white, or swiss.... I don't really care what you call them. I would like to find out more information. Did that randomization help them in the long run? Do whites have DM and Pannus as much at the working lines? Do they have the hip problems of the show lines? Are there other issues to look out for? Should I start a new thread? I don't want to hijack this one but I am very interested.


----------



## dogma13

shepherdmom said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wont say regardless of where traits came from, we know how they came about, and it was influenced almost exclusively by colour. The breeding stemmed from GSD lines. The original dogs selected were completely randomised, and selected purely for colour.
> In what is, or at least became over time a more and more rare occurrence of white's being born in normal litters. (Weather by the fact that its a recessive gene or by the fact that they were bred out).
> So to sum up. They took rare GSD's with completely randomised qualities. (Weather they were good prospects or not, nervy or not. They all went into the white GSD/Swiss and so forth breeding lines with selection almost exclusively colour. Simply put, they had a smaller sample to chose from. Then they probably line-bred, in-bred again to solidify type. (So this happened again in these lines to different criteria).
> How they are selected now is another issue. But the original dogs were obviously lacking, simply by the method in how they were matched and chosen. I would not call them GSD's at all. I think they have a better name as 'swiss shepherds'.
> 
> 
> 
> BBS, white, or swiss.... I don't really care what you call them. I would like to find out more information. Did that randomization help them in the long run? Do whites have DM and Pannus as much at the working lines? Do they have the hip problems of the show lines? Are there other issues to look out for? Should I start a new thread? I don't want to hijack this one but I am very interested.
Click to expand...

I was interested too and googled trying to find more information.Found some history on some breeders sites but not much medical stuff except they do xray hips and elbows.


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wont say regardless of where traits came from, we know how they came about, and it was influenced almost exclusively by colour. The breeding stemmed from GSD lines. The original dogs selected were completely randomised, and selected purely for colour.
> In what is, or at least became over time a more and more rare occurrence of white's being born in normal litters. (Weather by the fact that its a recessive gene or by the fact that they were bred out).
> So to sum up. They took rare GSD's with completely randomised qualities. (Weather they were good prospects or not, nervy or not. They all went into the white GSD/Swiss and so forth breeding lines with selection almost exclusively colour. Simply put, they had a smaller sample to chose from. Then they probably line-bred, in-bred again to solidify type. (So this happened again in these lines to different criteria).
> How they are selected now is another issue. But the original dogs were obviously lacking, simply by the method in how they were matched and chosen. I would not call them GSD's at all. I think they have a better name as 'swiss shepherds'.
> 
> 
> 
> BBS, white, or swiss.... I don't really care what you call them. I would like to find out more information. Did that randomization help them in the long run? Do whites have DM and Pannus as much at the working lines? Do they have the hip problems of the show lines? Are there other issues to look out for? Should I start a new thread? I don't want to hijack this one but I am very interested.
Click to expand...

No it did not help them at all. They bred random traits.. Any criticism we have of the gsd, is compounded in whites. just based on a diff standard. Initially the only standard was white.

Again my issue with gsd is not weather it should be straight or sloped. It's that they are intentionally breeding for one or the other with no evidence that it improves performance or health. 

The few white gsds I have seen, don't move as well as even gsd show lines. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the 'straight back'. The ones I personally saw were extremely slow, bigger, very passive. Some I saw were not even straight backed. Back hips were higher than front. 

Obviously there are different ones. But people just want 'white gsds' people buy them from anywhere that breeds them. And good breeders, at least what I consider a good breeder, would stay away from this.

You can't just breed for colour and expect a superior dog.

Only time to even think about a white gsd is from a normal gsd litter. And even then you are choosing the pup on colour and not being matched with the correct puppy. (Assuming you like gsd's over other breeds)


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> The few white gsds I have seen, don't move as well as even gsd show lines. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the 'straight back'. The ones I personally saw were extremely slow, bigger, very passive. Some I saw were not even straight backed. Back hips were higher than front.


Please understand that what you are looking for in a GSD is not necessarily what others are looking for in a GSD.

Slightly bigger and passive doesn't scare me in the slightest. However DM or HD or other health problems that would be something I would like to know about. Average life expectancy that would be good to know.


----------



## shepherdmom

dogma13 said:


> I was interested too and googled trying to find more information.Found some history on some breeders sites but not much medical stuff except they do xray hips and elbows.


I have googled as well. Trouble is I don't know what sites I can trust.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

WesS said:


> Again my issue with gsd is not weather it should be straight or sloped. It's that they are intentionally breeding for one or the other with no evidence that it improves performance or health.


Two good articles about structure and movement. 

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/structure-and-movement-part-1.pdf

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/structure-and-movement-part-2.pdf


----------



## WesS

Whiteshepherds said:


> Two good articles about structure and movement.
> 
> http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/structure-and-movement-part-1.pdf
> 
> http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/structure-and-movement-part-2.pdf



Sorry very poor sources and absolutely no evidence of anything.

Those articles are exactly what I have a problem with. That overly conformationist thinking.

It uses examples of crooked knees in humans and so on. Obviously you don't breed identified conditions and unhealthy dogs.

The point is the gsd is supposed to be a work capable dog. So that implies performance and health.

If a dog is agile, can change directions, has a good vertical/horizontal jump, has stamina, has speed. Well those are the ideal criteria in my book. Not hip angle.

Performance testing will always trump artificial measurements.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> Sorry very poor sources and absolutely no evidence of anything.
> 
> Performance testing will always trump artificial measurements.


Poor source?

Dr. Carmen L. Battaglia holds the Ph.D. and Masters degree from Florida State University.

Dr. Battaglia is on the board of the AKC; AKC/CAR and the AKC Museum of the Dog. He is the current president of Dog Writers Association of American and *past president of the German Shepherd Dog Club of America*. 

Ya I trust some random internet guy over that.


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> Poor source?
> 
> Dr. Carmen L. Battaglia holds the Ph.D. and Masters degree from Florida State University.
> 
> Dr. Battaglia is on the board of the AKC; AKC/CAR and the AKC Museum of the Dog. He is the current president of Dog Writers Association of American and *past president of the German Shepherd Dog Club of America*.
> 
> Ya I trust some random internet guy over that.


Where is her literature backing her claims? Also mastersphd in what?
Not a fan of the akc sorry.


----------



## dogfaeries

WesS said:


> Whiteshepherds said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two good articles about structure and movement.
> 
> http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/structure-and-movement-part-1.pdf
> 
> http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/structure-and-movement-part-2.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry very poor sources and absolutely no evidence of anything.
Click to expand...



Why would you think Carmen Battaglia is a poor source? 

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/articles.php#continuingEducation


----------



## WesS

dogfaeries said:


> Why would you think Carmen Battaglia is a poor source?
> 
> Breeding Better Dogs | Articles


Because he is the president of exactly what I am criticizing.
Also I asked for science, not an opinion. And there is no evidence anywhere proving the points people are making. 

Furthermore checked his phd/masters (which was conveniently sourced to prove his infallibility) is in crime and sociology. Just saying.

Having an advanced education in medicine does not make you a lawyer.


----------



## dogfaeries

I'm confused. What exactly are you trying to figure out? What do you want to know? 
What credentials does someone have to have to be a credible source for you?


----------



## selzer

WesS said:


> Where is her literature backing her claims? Also mastersphd in what?
> Not a fan of the akc sorry.


So let's here your beef on the AKC. 

Frankly, I am a fan of the AKC. It is not the SV, they are different animals. Sorry. The SV is a German Shepherd Dog Club and registry for GSDs only. The AKC is a kennel club and purebred dog registry. You cannot expect the same things from two different critters. I think the AKC does a pretty good job overall.


----------



## shepherdmom

I am confused too. He was president of the German Shepherd dog club of America. 

That is about as expert on the German Shepherd dog as you can get.


----------



## cliffson1

Just a routine question.....if you are a president of a working dog club, and you have minimal experience actually working dogs, then what is the source of your expertise. ( not directed at Dr. Battagula, but the concept of Judges of working breeds that have never worked dogs) ....What would be the source of their expert opinion on working traits in a working breed; that I think would/should be important. Not trying to bash, I would just like a reasonable explanation that is logical that shows where the expertise of the opinion comes from.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> I am confused too. He was president of the German Shepherd dog club of America.
> 
> That is about as expert on the German Shepherd dog as you can get.


As with most political positions...it's not what you know, its who you know.

Most board positions are acquired by those that have the willingness and time to put into those positions. People actually working dogs, don't have that time.

I think the point was brought up earlier, and as someone that was involved in a GSDCA affiliated club for quite some time...you realize how funny it is that people who have never worked a dog in their life, believe they can look at a dog's stride and movement and predict which one will be a better worker (this mostly has to do with herding). Yup...that's right, the job of most judges is to figure out which dog can herd best due to the efficiency of their movement. Most of these people, have never worked a flock in their life...kind of makes you wonder...


----------



## dogfaeries

I know you know that AKC judges of any breed are comparing the dog in front of them to the standard written by the parent club. You need to know structure and movement to do that. Ability, whether it's bird hunting or sheep herding, isn't measured in a conformation show. It's up to the parent club to decide what is in their standard. Makes sense that those people would have a working knowledge of what that breed should be able to do. 

I'm still trying to find out what Wes is really asking in this thread.


----------



## dogfaeries

martemchik said:


> Yup...that's right, the job of most judges is to figure out which dog can herd best due to the efficiency of their movement. Most of these people, have never worked a flock in their life...kind of makes you wonder...


No. Judges are deciding which dog best fits the written standard. They aren't deciding who can herd better, just the dog whose structure more closely matches what the standard says. You need to take issue with the standard.


----------



## martemchik

dogfaeries said:


> No. Judges are deciding which dog best fits the written standard. They aren't deciding who can herd better, just the dog whose structure more closely matches what the standard says. You need to take issue with the standard.


Nope, not standard, take issue with how the standard is *interpreted*. So...the standard says the angles should be X, Y, and Z which would make the dog a more capable herding dog. Says nothing about drive, or any kind of temperament test necessary to actually prove the working ability of the dog.

I've actually had a prominent member of the GSDCA/GSD judge and breeder tell me all about this. It's quite fun when people are telling you their dog will work better than your working line just because of a few angles in their legs and how they save energy when moving. They take no consideration into the fact that their dogs have no want to use any energy to move period, while my dog, who might be "wasting energy" has plenty more to give.

And don't worry...I've studied it enough, and I do believe that most ASL do move with a much greater efficiency of motion than working lines due to their conformation. Doesn't really matter though if the dog doesn't want to do the job in the first place though.

I really don't care what goes on in the GSDCA or the conformation ring. I'm just trying to tell people that the people in charge don't always know as much as people believe they do.


----------



## dogfaeries

martemchik said:


> Nope, not standard, take issue with how the standard is *interpreted*. So...the standard says the angles should be X, Y, and Z which would make the dog a more capable herding dog. Says nothing about drive, or any kind of temperament test necessary to actually prove the working ability of the dog.


Lol, yes it is the standard. If the standard says the angles should be x,y & z to make a more capable herding dog, then how is it not the standard? You need to get past the fact that AKC conformation is just conformation. There is no testing for working ability in an AKC conformation show. Right or wrong, that's the reality.


----------



## shepherdmom

cliffson1 said:


> Just a routine question.....if you are a president of a working dog club, and you have minimal experience actually working dogs, then what is the source of your expertise. ( not directed at Dr. Battagula, but the concept of Judges of working breeds that have never worked dogs) ....What would be the source of their expert opinion on working traits in a working breed; that I think would/should be important. Not trying to bash, I would just like a reasonable explanation that is logical that shows where the expertise of the opinion comes from.


I'm answering this in the friendly spirit it was asked I am not trying to be snotty, I am seriously confused. 

This guy is a breeder, he is a judge and he was president of the club. If I can't trust him (the expert) as a source then I don't understand who the heck I'm supposed to trust for correct information on our breed? 

The club website states:

With these principles still guiding us, let our Club today continue to work for the betterment of German Shepherd Dogs in whatever way we are able.

Isn't this the American version of the SV? Who would be a higher authority on our dogs than the person who was president of this?


----------



## WesS

The toughness of the wolf. Closest ancestor of the dog.





An hour chase, to take down a prey over 5 times its body weight. Yet modern dogs in conformation are bred to trot around a track. And then for judges to monitor 'health and endurance'. Its all marketing. Its easier to judge. Its easier for people to not put much training in. Its easier to manage. 

I agree with martemchik here. If people working dogs were judging, they would see things very differently with regards to movement. And I am not talking just bite work. It includes agility and so forth.

You want better movement? Economy of motion? Explosiveness? Stamina? You can only see that through activity. Not by measuring angles, and arguing if staight or not is better.The straight back/non thing has gone way too far. And each breed, is based on completely 'different' 'movement dynamics'. As far as I am concerned, you can either move efficiently, and are healthy, or you cant.


----------



## martemchik

dogfaeries said:


> Lol, yes it is the standard. If the standard says the angles should be x,y & z to make a more capable herding dog, then how is it not the standard? You need to get past the fact that AKC conformation is just conformation. There is no testing for working ability in an AKC conformation show. Right or wrong, that's the reality.


I'll get past it when people that actively participate in AKC conformation, stop telling me their dogs can work better than mine. I'm happy that you've accepted that fact and maybe some others have to, but the truth is, most of the people in that venue have not and have no problem arguing the fact that their dogs can work better than most working lines due to their conformation. The prominent BOARD MEMBER of the GSDCA, judge, and breeder I'm referring to is one of those people.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Isn't this the American version of the SV? Who would be a higher authority on our dogs than the person who was president of this?


Not even close. The GSDCA is further from being the SV than the AKC is.


----------



## WesS

But I am sure AKC and other registry standards know best!






Im sure pugs are the healthiest specimens they could possibly be! If they can get to the couch without panting I might be impressed a little bit, with the way breed standards are going.


----------



## dogfaeries

martemchik said:


> I'll get past it when people that actively participate in AKC conformation, stop telling me their dogs can work better than mine. I'm happy that you've accepted that fact and maybe some others have to, but the truth is, most of the people in that venue have not and have no problem arguing the fact that their dogs can work better than most working lines due to their conformation. The prominent BOARD MEMBER of the GSDCA, judge, and breeder I'm referring to is one of those people.


It's unfortunate that there is such a split. You and I have come very late to this party though, and it's frustrating all the way around. Maybe these different lines really should be separate breeds. I don't see them ever coming back together. I don't see this ever getting resolved. 

I'm not a breeder. I like to show. I like to do piddly silly things with my dogs, like barn hunt and lure coursing, and herding instinct tests, clicker training. I belong to the GSDCOK. Our former president is a judge. I've never talked to her about the split in lines, etc. I think I will.


----------



## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> Not even close. The GSDCA is further from being the SV than the AKC is.


Then who is in charge of the American dogs? Who would I look to as the experts for breed standard information?


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> Then who is in charge of the American dogs? Who would I look to as the experts for breed standard information?


Everybody and nobody. I would go with USCA for upholding SV standards over any other organization.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Then who is in charge of the American dogs? Who would I look to as the experts for breed standard information?


Why do you need an "expert on breed standard information?" The standard is written on plenty of websites, it's not very different. Find it, read it, pick out the parts you like and don't like. No one in the United States is in control of keeping the standard. You don't need to meet minimum requirements to breed and then pass on a pedigree. It's a cultural thing, no one tells Americans what they can and can't do.

Anytime you start reading ANYONE'S opinion on the breed standard (including my own and anyone on this forum), you're getting biased and subjective information based on that person's experience. Only way to form your own opinion? Get out there and work dogs, show dogs, train dogs. Meet a lot of people, see through the BS they talk about. You'll only be able to see that when you can lay your hands or eyes on them or their dog. If all you want to do is sit and read people's opinions online, it won't get you very far. Everyone has their own opinion on the internet, then they'll go off and do something completely different in real life.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> Everybody and nobody. I would go with USCA for upholding SV standards over any other organization.


Sorry I asked that question poorly or maybe I don't understand quite what the SV is. Who is the authority on German Shepherds in America that are not part of the split between working lines and show lines. Who here upholds the overall standard for German Shepherds in general?


----------



## martemchik

dogfaeries said:


> It's unfortunate that there is such a split. You and I have come very late to this party though, and it's frustrating all the way around. Maybe these different lines really should be separate breeds. I don't see them ever coming back together. I don't see this ever getting resolved.
> 
> I'm not a breeder. I like to show. I like to do piddly silly things with my dogs, like barn hunt and lure coursing, and herding instinct tests, clicker training. I belong to the GSDCOK. Our former president is a judge. I've never talked to her about the split in lines, etc. I think I will.


I really don't care about the splits anymore to tell you the truth. Enjoy your dog, enjoy other people's dogs, push people to do more with their dogs no matter what lines they are. The more people are active with dogs, the more they'll figure it out for themselves what is important to them and how that relates to the breed standard.

People need to get out and see dogs competing in all venues. That will get them to be more rounded and figure out for themselves what they believe is right and what's wrong. What kind of breeding practices and which lines they want to support. Shoving regurgitated information down people's throats is never productive, which is why I urge people to get out and figure it out for themselves.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Sorry I asked that question poorly or maybe I don't understand quite what the SV is. Who is the authority on German Shepherds in America that are not part of the split between working lines and show lines. Who here upholds the overall standard for German Shepherds in general?


The SV issues pedigrees and breeding papers in Germany. They can control what is bred and what isn't. Don't meet their standards? No papers. People in Germany respect the system, don't much care for dogs that aren't following that system. If a dog doesn't have papers, they'll look elsewhere.

In the United States, any purebred dog, with full registration, can be bred, and produce puppies with papers. But...there are plenty of people that don't care about that, don't even respect the minimal requirements that the AKC sets, and will go other places and buy a dog that LOOKS like a GSD. All that the people in this country care about is how their dog looks and if when they walk down the street, their neighbors will know they have a GSD. Papers matter little to many. So there is no organization that can control what gets bred and if it has met any minimal requirements.


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> Sorry I asked that question poorly or maybe I don't understand quite what the SV is. Who is the authority on German Shepherds in America that are not part of the split between working lines and show lines. Who here upholds the overall standard for German Shepherds in general?


There isn't. We are responsible for our own actions and decisions with zero repercussions or standards to be met to attain registration records.


----------



## dogfaeries

martemchik said:


> I really don't care about the splits anymore to tell you the truth. Enjoy your dog, enjoy other people's dogs, push people to do more with their dogs no matter what lines they are. The more people are active with dogs, the more they'll figure it out for themselves what is important to them and how that relates to the breed standard.
> 
> People need to get out and see dogs competing in all venues. That will get them to be more rounded and figure out for themselves what they believe is right and what's wrong. What kind of breeding practices and which lines they want to support. Shoving regurgitated information down people's throats is never productive, which is why I urge people to get out and figure it out for themselves.



I agree.


----------



## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> Why do you need an "expert on breed standard information?" The standard is written on plenty of websites, it's not very different. Find it, read it, pick out the parts you like and don't like. No one in the United States is in control of keeping the standard. You don't need to meet minimum requirements to breed and then pass on a pedigree. It's a cultural thing, no one tells Americans what they can and can't do.


The thing I know most about and have been most involved in is rescue, although years ago I helped with some SAR stuff. Hubby and I have recently tossed around the idea of going to a breeder for our next dog (a few years down the road) and I am trying to get some idea of where to start looking for information. I'm most interested in the white/swiss shepherd but I want to make sure I understand it better before I spend $2000+ on a dog. The thing is even the experts don't agree. Where we live there are not dog shows or working events or other places to go watch the dogs. It may never happen we might just fall in love with another rescue and that will be the end of this idea but research and knowledge can never hurt right?


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> The thing I know most about and have been most involved in is rescue, although years ago I helped with some SAR stuff. Hubby and I have recently tossed around the idea of going to a breeder for our next dog (a few years down the road) and I am trying to get some idea of where to start looking for information. I'm most interested in the white/swiss shepherd but I want to make sure I understand it better before I spend $2000+ on a dog. The thing is even the experts don't agree. Where we live there are not dog shows or working events or other places to go watch the dogs. It may never happen we might just fall in love with another rescue and that will be the end of this idea but research and knowledge can never hurt right?


I would actually get out the box and consider a working line Border Collie as also a possibility. Based on the way you explain what you are looking for in a dog.
American Border Collie Association: Promoting the Working Border Collie

People too often try make the GSD represent everything and anything. And it just does not work that way IMO.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> I would actually get out the box and consider a working line Border Collie as also a possibility. Based on the way you explain what you are looking for in a dog.
> American Border Collie Association: Promoting the Working Border Collie
> 
> People too often try make the GSD represent everything and anything. And it just does not work that way.


Oh wow I must not be explaining myself very well or you have me confused with someone else. If we don't go with a GSD it will be a King, a Shilo or something along those lines.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> There isn't. We are responsible for our own actions and decisions with zero repercussions or standards to be met to attain registration records.


Well that sucks!  For the dog at least.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> The thing I know most about and have been most involved in is rescue, although years ago I helped with some SAR stuff. Hubby and I have recently tossed around the idea of going to a breeder for our next dog (a few years down the road) and I am trying to get some idea of where to start looking for information. I'm most interested in the white/swiss shepherd but I want to make sure I understand it better before I spend $2000+ on a dog. The thing is even the experts don't agree. Where we live there are not dog shows or working events or other places to go watch the dogs. It may never happen we might just fall in love with another rescue and that will be the end of this idea but research and knowledge can never hurt right?


Most people drive 2 or 3 or even more hours to get to dog shows or even training venues. I highly doubt there is nothing around you. Most of the venues aren't advertised very well, but the AKC does have all their dog shows and trials on their website. The USCA does a very good job listing their trials and shows on their website, many times a year in advance.

If you want to do the research, you have to travel. If you choose not to, that's your decision. You just can't do your research online for this. All you'll get is differing opinions and never truly understand what people are saying. One person will call a dog great, another will call them terrible. Until you see the dog, you can't make your own decision, or even have a good, in depth conversation of why someone might've come up with their conclusion.

If you're interested in white GSD, UKC is probably the largest venue you'll see those dogs in. They also list their shows on their website, even though they are much smaller and don't have anywhere near as many as the AKC does. You're also not guaranteed to see any white shepherds if you go.

Sorry...too many people want everything handed to them on a platter. The internet as made some things easier in regards to dogs, but there is still a lot of leg work to do if you truly want to make an educated decision. I personally like hearing the variety of opinions we have on this forum, but I definitely value the knowledge I gain from people off this forum way more than anything I ever read here.


----------



## Chip18

WesS said:


> But I am sure AKC and other registry standards know best!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im sure pugs are the healthiest specimens they could possibly be! If they can get to the couch without panting I might be impressed a little bit, with the way breed standards are going.


Maybe it's a "working pug!" 

But honestly that is just sad.


----------



## Xeph

The issue with that Pug is that it's fat, not how it's bred


----------



## WesS

Xeph said:


> The issue with that Pug is that it's fat, not how it's bred



Haha yes that's a fat pug. Would like you to show me a healthy one. One that can run for a couple of minutes without sounding like it's going to have a heart attack. I've certainly never seen one. 

Maybe a better example is the English bulldog. One of the most impressive physical specimens, degraded to complete and utter disaster. The point stands. Some official breeds with breed standards enforced by organizations like the akc care nothing for health.


----------



## dogfaeries

WesS said:


> Xeph said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with that Pug is that it's fat, not how it's bred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha yes that's a fat pug. Would like you to show me a healthy one. One that can run for a couple of minutes without sounding like it's going to have a heart attack. I've certainly never seen one
Click to expand...

Seriously? I know lots of people with pugs, and they are just regular dogs. In fact, most pugs that I've been around are a bit wild and bouncy. My best friend had a pug for about 14 years. Not fat, not crippled. 

As for Bulldogs, I've been around them too. I groomed one for years that was very active and bouncy. The only caveat on push face dogs is that you can't leave them outside in the 100 degree heat here in Oklahoma. But I'm pretty sure most of the GSD owners on this forum don't leave their dogs out in 100 degree heat anyway.


----------



## dogfaeries

Pugs at the AKC Agility National


----------



## WesS

dogfaeries said:


> Pugs at the AKC Agility National


Oh great. Nice pug. Probably more of an exception, but anyways. But still I don't think they are being bred to colerate to this or anything else regarding health. I dont think the AKC and similar organisations are really doing anything to promote dog health in any of its breeding standards.

Lets move onto the English Bulldog. This is probably one of the best videos I found on the internet. 






Very nice, well trained dog. But you can see how visibly tired it gets at the end. Possibly even do damage eventually. 
Now I am not saying bulldogs need to be bred to do agility. But they needs to be some correlation with health. Something physical they are good at, to show good health.

Again I cant stand 'human manufactured' attributes based on how the dog looks. I began thinking this way myself. And I think it is wrong.

Just my personal opinion. I think its dog abuse to breed against health.


----------



## Xeph

I know several agility Pugs lol


----------



## Xeph

And my personal feeling is that if you dislike a certain breed, don't buy it. Not hard. The health of Pugs and Bulldogs is immaterial to me, as they are not my breeds of choice.


----------



## WesS

Xeph said:


> And my personal feeling is that if you dislike a certain breed, don't buy it. Not hard. The health of Pugs and Bulldogs is immaterial to me, as they are not my breeds of choice.



But the same flawed templates of breeding is brought in to the gsd by akc and friends.

You forget the English bulldog was a bull baiting dog. Highly powerfull athletic breed. Look where all that conformation got it to.

And to go further, when does do you draw the line between meeting market demand and animal abuse.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> But the same flawed templates of breeding is brought in to the gsd by akc and friends.


You are entitled to your opinion. Just remember that, to many others, this is not a flawed template of breeding. Some may consider the template you support as the flawed one.


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> You are entitled to your opinion. Just remember that, to many others, this is not a flawed template of breeding. Some may consider the template you support as the flawed one.


And which template would that be? It does not matter what people consider or think. There is right and wrong. And AKC and friends, have done some terrible things to dogs. No going around that. They made dogs a marketable commodity, and nothing more. So to sum up. No the president of the AKC is not a good source on how important 'what they' look for in terms of 'health' bears any value.

Problem is dogs are not a smartphone or a car.


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> And which template would that be? It does not matter what people consider or think. There is right and wrong. And AKC and friends, have done some terrible things to dogs. No going around that. They made dogs a marketable commodity, and nothing more. So to sum up. No the president of the AKC is not a good source on how important 'what they' look for in terms of 'health' bears any value.
> 
> Problem is dogs are not a smartphone or a car.


I have no idea what you support, nor do I really care. I consider the president of the German Shepherd Dog Club of America (not the AKC no idea where that came from ) a good source for information on German Shepherd structure and movement.


----------



## Saphire

Best person around for knowledge on structure and movement would be Linda Shaw IMO


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> Best person around for knowledge on structure and movement would be Linda Shaw IMO


For the working line.


----------



## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> For the working line.


For the German Shepherd, both working and show lines. ...


----------



## dogfaeries

Saphire said:


> Best person around for knowledge on structure and movement would be Linda Shaw IMO


I agree.


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> For the German Shepherd.


She is Canadian, her degree is in history and business and she doesn't breed. Why do you consider her an expert?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I was going to post one of the links to her illustrations the other day but after the comments about Carmen Battaglia figured why bother.  Seeing how she's been mentioned....

Movement of the Working Dog

This popped up first and seemed fine for the discussion, I know she has more about the GSD on other websites.


----------



## dogfaeries

shepherdmom said:


> She is Canadian, her degree is in history and business and she doesn't breed. Why do you consider her an expert?


This wasn't asked of me, but I'm going to give my opinion. _Because you don't have to have a degree to be knowledgeable about something._ I'm not sure why this is escaping some people on here.


----------



## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> She is Canadian, her degree is in history and business and she doesn't breed. Why do you consider her an expert?


30 years of training and showing GSD's to include shutzhund. She has a passion and gift I've not seen in anyone else. 

Had lunch with her and Carmen the other day, between the 2 of them, I sit memorized and try to absorb as much as possible from them. She has attended some training sessions and given tremendous feedback on my dog and structure.


----------



## dogfaeries

Saphire said:


> Had lunch with her and Carmen the other day, between the 2 of them, I sit memorized and try to absorb as much as possible from them. She has attended some training sessions and given tremendous feedback on my dog and structure.


I'm jealous! Sounds like a great lunch date.


----------



## Saphire

dogfaeries said:


> I'm jealous! Sounds like a great lunch date.


It always is! Great people!


----------



## shepherdmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> I was going to post one of the links to her illustrations the other day but after the comments about Carmen Battaglia figured why bother.  Seeing how she's been mentioned....
> 
> Movement of the Working Dog
> 
> This popped up first and seemed fine for the discussion, I know she has more about the GSD on other websites.


Well after the comments about the other guy I was just being a smarty about her.  But I don't understand what makes her qualifications better than the other guy? 

I like what she calls "the square type" look.


----------



## shepherdmom

dogfaeries said:


> This wasn't asked of me, but I'm going to give my opinion. _Because you don't have to have a degree to be knowledgeable about something._ I'm not sure why this is escaping some people on here.


Sorry I was just being a smarty because of the other guys comments about Dr. Battagulas qualifications. I really am curious tho what makes her better qualified than Dr. Battagula.


----------



## dogfaeries

Went to a Patricia Trotter seminar on Form & Function two years ago, and it was very interesting. Learned things I didn't know, which is always nice.


----------



## dogfaeries

Patricia Trotter teaches history, so there you go. Well, and has over 40 years of breeding Norwegian Elkhounds.


----------



## Chip18

shepherdmom said:


> I am confused too. He was president of the German Shepherd dog club of America.
> 
> That is about as expert on the German Sheph"erd dog as you can get.


"Politics and "Connections" can easily trump skill and ability!


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> "Politics and "Connections" can easily trump skill and ability!


Are we talking about the original guy who was posted? He is a breeder, a judge, president of the club and has some other qualifications.... I doubt he would have made it that far without some skill and ability.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Chip18 said:


> "Politics and "Connections" can easily trump skill and ability!


Reacting to the statement, not you personally. 

And maybe he's dedicated the better part of his life to the world of purebred dogs, educated himself, educated others, started and/or served on countless committees both in the GSDCA and the AKC among other places, became qualified to judge 40 different breeds, was a breeder himself, became a respected author and lecturer and continues to serve the GSD breed through the GSDCA and multiple breeds through the AKC at a time when he could be retired and sipping pina colada's in the Bahama's. 

I "get" that the purebred dog world is full of politics and strong differences of opinion but there's difference between sitting behind a keyboard talking about a breed (not you personally) and actually becoming involved in a breed. I think Dr. Battaglia has earned a level of respect most of us aren't going to see in a lifetime. 

In case you think I agree with everything the man says or does, I don't...but I do respect him and think he's more than qualified to explain how structure and movement go hand in hand. (and so is Linda Shaw)


----------



## dogfaeries

Whiteshepherds said:


> Reacting to the statement, not you personally.
> 
> And maybe he's dedicated the better part of his life to the world of purebred dogs, educated himself, educated others, started and/or served on countless committees both in the GSDCA and the AKC among other places, became qualified to judge 40 different breeds, was a breeder himself, became a respected author and lecturer and continues to serve the GSD breed through the GSDCA and multiple breeds through the AKC at a time when he could be retired and sipping pina colada's in the Bahama's.
> 
> I "get" that the purebred dog world is full of politics and strong differences of opinion but there's difference between sitting behind a keyboard talking about a breed (not you personally) and actually becoming involved in a breed. I think Dr. Battaglia has earned a level of respect most of us aren't going to see in a lifetime.
> 
> In case you think I agree with everything the man says or does, I don't...but I do respect him and think he's more than qualified to explain how structure and movement go hand in hand. (and so is Linda Shaw)



Nicely said.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I don't want this to be about white dogs, just the top line/movement. I just don't happen to own any colored dogs to post pictures of. 
It's hard to talk about top lines without pictures, so here you go. You won't hurt my feelings with a critique, I really am interested in what people with more knowledge about conformation see compared to what I think I see. Although I have whites I really am interested in discussions about the breed standard. 

When I look at these dogs and compare them to Linda Shaws drawings I "think" the top dogs conformation might be considered too square for GSD but not as square as the the sketch, she has a croup. Is that right? That dog was 10 years old when the picture was taken btw,-she was in great shape. 

Dog in the middle (sorry-she was blowing her coat after a long winter and she's not stacked,.but she was standing still) I think she's a little long, but besides that- how would you describe her topline? Too square? When people say square do they mean no croup like in the first sketch? (that sketch makes the dog look high in the rear to me, not square)

Bottom dog- Back right leg maybe a little to far back in the stack but it looks to me like if it was a little more forward he'd be very close to the correct type sketch? 

Am I seeing the top lines correctly or no? 



Next picture- Older dog is from the picture above. Younger dog was about 17 weeks old- I think they both have nice movement but in particular, the pup. Am I seeing that correctly? (the pup was moving a lot faster than the older dog just to keep up with her if that matters) The pup is built just like the dog at the top of the first picture. 



Appreciate the input.


----------



## WesS

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't want this to be about white dogs, just the top line/movement. I just don't happen to own any colored dogs to post pictures of.
> It's hard to talk about top lines without pictures, so here you go. You won't hurt my feelings with a critique, I really am interested in what people with more knowledge about conformation see compared to what I think I see. Although I have whites I really am interested in discussions about the breed standard.
> 
> When I look at these dogs and compare them to Linda Shaws drawings I "think" the top dogs conformation might be considered too square for GSD but not as square as the the sketch, she has a croup. Is that right? That dog was 10 years old when the picture was taken btw,-she was in great shape.
> 
> Dog in the middle (sorry-she was blowing her coat after a long winter and she's not stacked,.but she was standing still) I think she's a little long, but besides that- how would you describe her topline? Too square? When people say square do they mean no croup like in the first sketch? (that sketch makes the dog look high in the rear to me, not square)
> 
> Bottom dog- Back right leg maybe a little to far back in the stack but it looks to me like if it was a little more forward he'd be very close to the correct type sketch?
> 
> Am I seeing the top lines correctly or no?
> 
> 
> 
> Next picture- Older dog is from the picture above. Younger dog was about 17 weeks old- I think they both have nice movement but in particular, the pup. Am I seeing that correctly? (the pup was moving a lot faster than the older dog just to keep up with her if that matters) The pup is built just like the dog at the top of the first picture.
> 
> 
> 
> Appreciate the input.


Who has the better top-line? Who moves better?










People are so immersed in this whole thing, they dont realise how ridiculous the whole thing is.


----------



## dogfaeries

You know what, Wes, structure matters to some of the members of this forum. Belittling someone when they are trying to learn is not productive. Whiteshepherds asked a serious question.


----------



## WesS

WesS said:


> Who has the better top-line? Who moves better?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People are so immersed in this whole thing, they dont realise how ridiculous the whole thing is.


These discussions make more sense:

For purpose:









Measurable:









This probably gives more information than some of those stacks.









But then again... What on earth could a picture possibly tell you... It cant EVEN tell you if the DOGS have hip Dysplacia... It cant even tell you if they are completely not able to walk... There has to be a huge visible deficit, for a picture to tell you ANYTHING...

Yet here we are, still asking about the optimal stack, and how a dog trots. Here we are discussing straight or frog.


----------



## WesS

dogfaeries said:


> You know what, Wes, structure matters to some of the members of this forum. Belittling someone when they are trying to learn is not productive. Whiteshepherds asked a serious question.


She asked something about the breed std. This is a thread about keeping original, straight back, i.e. Breaking the breed std. Well, I am going a step further and saying people are too caught up with straight back, lower.. When they should be asking completely different questions.

She can make a conformation thread anytime she likes. And discuss to her hearts content. That is not the thread topic. My point as silly as it may 'seem' to you. Is not that silly, when you actually think about what people are doing with dogs. Its borderline crazy.

This thread IS about questioning the breed standard. Not about giving advice on it. You dont see me in those threads, now do you. People are so quick to point out Big Pharma.. And the Evil there... But when it comes to their dogs, they are blinded, by Dogs R Us, TM.


----------



## dogfaeries

What????


----------



## dogfaeries

The original topic was someone stating that they thought the breed should be "original, with a straight back". There was no question asked. Just an opinion, that also had some misinformation wrapped up in it:



> Many professionals have stated hip problems in GSD are more common in the slant back showline breeds because the angulation puts pressure on the hips and i believe it as any working line GSD i have had had great hips.



This thread is in the Breed Standard forum. How is someone asking about movement and structure not on topic? It's part of the breed standard.


----------



## WesS

dogfaeries said:


> The original topic was someone stating that they thought the breed should be "original, with a straight back". There was no question asked. Just an opinion, that also had some misinformation wrapped up in it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is in the Breed Standard forum. How is someone asking about movement and structure not on topic? It's part of the breed standard.


Thats my reply. It is also on topic. This is not a 'what is the breed std. thread', but rather what should it be. The scope is vast. I am sure, somebody else can give her a reply she wants.


----------



## katieliz

WesS...oftentimes threads here get hijacked and morph into something else, lots of times something informative to somebody reading now or even somebody in the future. There are some other shepherd boards that are not well moderated that morph into something that I call the wild, wild, west...people insult one another and are disrespectful and tell other posters what they should or shouldn't do, and sometimes even tell them where to get off. What I like about this board is that most who come here and stick around for any length of time are not those kind of people. Lots of us have pretty strong opinions, especially with respect to lines, food, and training...but we share info and are understanding and supportive when one of us has a loss, and the moderators here are pretty diligent in closing threads that truly go off the rails. Early on in my time here, I learned that the moderators' job was best left to them. Welcome to the board, WesS.


----------



## carmspack

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't want this to be about white dogs, just the top line/movement. I just don't happen to own any colored dogs to post pictures of.
> It's hard to talk about top lines without pictures, so here you go. You won't hurt my feelings with a critique, I really am interested in what people with more knowledge about conformation see compared to what I think I see. Although I have whites I really am interested in discussions about the breed standard.
> 
> When I look at these dogs and compare them to Linda Shaws drawings I "think" the top dogs conformation might be considered too square for GSD but not as square as the the sketch, she has a croup. Is that right? That dog was 10 years old when the picture was taken btw,-she was in great shape.
> 
> Dog in the middle (sorry-she was blowing her coat after a long winter and she's not stacked,.but she was standing still) I think she's a little long, but besides that- how would you describe her topline? Too square? When people say square do they mean no croup like in the first sketch? (that sketch makes the dog look high in the rear to me, not square)
> 
> Bottom dog- Back right leg maybe a little to far back in the stack but it looks to me like if it was a little more forward he'd be very close to the correct type sketch?
> 
> Am I seeing the top lines correctly or no?
> 
> 
> 
> Next picture- Older dog is from the picture above. Younger dog was about 17 weeks old- I think they both have nice movement but in particular, the pup. Am I seeing that correctly? (the pup was moving a lot faster than the older dog just to keep up with her if that matters) The pup is built just like the dog at the top of the first picture.
> 
> 
> 
> Appreciate the input.


 
Just wait till Linda's book comes out in Sept or Oct 

I see some nice structure in those "white" dogs .
Nothing exaggerated - good clean functional structure .

In the opening of this thread this was said "Many professionals have stated hip problems in GSD are more common in the slant back showline breeds because the angulation puts pressure on the hips and i believe it as any working line GSD i have had had great hips"

This is not the case . This may be co-incidental but NOT causal. What is at play is the selection of breeding partners without regard to hip status , and pedigree depth for good orthopedics. The angle of the croup might be what you are looking at , not the back at all . There will be an indepth discussion in the Shaw book with lots of illustrations. 
The things that the OP worried about are covered in this THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
and you need to differentiate this sub group , which would be (north) American bred GSD from west German bred GSD which have other problems (roach) . 
Another problem is loose ligaments .
There are many OFA excellent American bred show line dogs .


----------



## carmspack

shepherdmom said:


> For the working line.


NO . For the breed -

She has owned and handled (show) and trained and trialed in all breed , specialty show, German SV style, French ring and SchH .

The dogs she has owned have been west German show (back in the late 60's)
North American show and has introduced DDR and west German working lines . I know the dogs rather well. Kato , coming up to 12 years later this June can out run , out jump many fit young dogs . 

Ideal conformation for soundness and ability is standard - form follows function.
All else is a matter of selection for esthetics or preference .


----------



## carmspack

it would be difficult to jump with a roach back and it would be difficult to jump with a long back accompanied with loose ligamentation

there is jumping which is vertical as Tyson shows . Journey is another one that can clear a 5 foot fence and still have lots of air under her .
This is tested in advanced Ring in the palisade .

Want to see what the "original" dogs could do the refer to your von Stephanitz book .
Then there is horizontal jumping , the ability to propel , open up and jump a ditch (example) -- something tested in KNPV and higher levels of Ring .
Want to see what the "original" dogs could do , then refer to the von Stephanitz book. 

The back transmits the power of forward propulsion from the rear to the front. A roach has little range of motion, is rigid . A long back has too much range of motion. 
Ideally there has to be stability and there has to be some flexibility.


----------



## carmspack

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs the dogs

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs canine movement , conformation


----------



## dogfaeries

thanks, Carmen! Please let us know when Linda's book comes out.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I love watching Tyson move,
He's so athletic it's amazing.

Let us know when the book is out, I'd love to read it Carmen.


----------



## martemchik

I think everyone needs to understand why the standard is what it is, and why the AKC, the SV, and even the working lines to some extent are the way they are. Why the people that breed those lines believe that they are doing the right thing and what their reasoning is behind it. This is only possible by speaking directly with the people breeding those particular lines and not the people breeding the other lines. Most people have a very slanted agenda against the "other lines" and really need to be ignored when they're speaking about the lines they aren't breeding themselves. Those posts/opinions are generally extremely slanted and aren't very objective.

So for anyone interested in GSD...I would just get out and see all venues. Learn and understand why the people involved in those venues do what they do, and then make your own conclusion based on that information. I would even try and stay away from books or any type of written word because more than likely that author has made their conclusion based on their experience and will swing their writing towards that belief.


----------



## WesS

martemchik said:


> I think everyone needs to understand why the standard is what it is, and why the AKC, the SV, and even the working lines to some extent are the way they are. Why the people that breed those lines believe that they are doing the right thing and what their reasoning is behind it. This is only possible by speaking directly with the people breeding those particular lines and not the people breeding the other lines. Most people have a very slanted agenda against the "other lines" and really need to be ignored when they're speaking about the lines they aren't breeding themselves. Those posts/opinions are generally extremely slanted and aren't very objective.
> 
> So for anyone interested in GSD...I would just get out and see all venues. Learn and understand why the people involved in those venues do what they do, and then make your own conclusion based on that information. I would even try and stay away from books or any type of written word because more than likely that author has made their conclusion based on their experience and will swing their writing towards that belief.


Yes, lets not judge anybody. Lets all just pretend everybody who does anything is a saint. Lets pretend they are all knowing, because they get fed a bunch of lies, and pass them on. Lets pretend they know more, simply because they follow protocols with no evidence base. And justify each other. Lets ask a serial killer about why they kill, and then agree with his expert opinion, on why its justified to kill people. Connect the dots. Lets accept canned hunting, because they 'know better'. Lets not criticise anybody. While we are at it, go ISIS. More executions please.

So back on topic. Why do you think its okay for AKC and friends, to ignore everything, and focus only on conformation? Is there something special they know? Some immense secret? There is no evidence? Fine you can never do 'too much'. Conformation is fine to an 'extent'. (Although I think the judgement critirea are a joke). But why select that over all the other measures traditionaly defining the breed standard? Why go so far as to ignore the SV standard? Why even call it a GSD? Those dogs, if they are already not different, will eventually be completely different. Simply put, they will cease to be a GSD at all.

I believe in intellectual property of ideas. And the guidelines of max, although not unfallaballe, were clear. The GSD was always meant to be a working dog, with certain core traits.


----------



## SkoobyDoo

Have you owned one of each of the different lines? Do you own now, an American show line, a German one and also a working dog or 3? 
If not, how do you know this, then?? *Why even call it a GSD? Those dogs, if they are already not different, will eventually be completely different. Simply put, they will cease to be a GSD at all.*
Or are you just regurgitating what some of the "old timers" who bash different lines have been typing over the past however long this forums been alive??


----------



## shepherdmom

WesS said:


> Why go so far as to ignore the SV standard? Why even call it a GSD? Those dogs, if they are already not different, will eventually be completely different. Simply put, they will cease to be a GSD at all.


:rolleyes2: dramatic much?

"The paths of German and American shepherds diverged after World War II. The Americans continued largely with the Pfeffer and Odin lines while in Germany the breed was in poor shape. Many dogs had been killed or destroyed due to lack of food. The best that was left was bred, frequently outcross breedings, since there was no great selection of line-bred stock. "

"Although starting with a common base, the breed in Germany and America has taken a separate but parallel course. The Americans, largely through Lance, and the Germans, largely through Canto and Quanto, have evolved closely-bred, although differing breeds in looks, movment, style, and structure. Both systems have cemented both desirable and undesirable characteristics into the breed. The Americans have the option to persue their own views and choose their own bloodline courses whether from within or outside their country. The Germans, controlled by the SV, will likely continue to look within to develop the breed. The future will be interesting for the breed in both countries ... "

The German Shepherd Dog, breed history

They are already different dogs. 

RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different


----------



## WesS

shepherdmom said:


> :rolleyes2: dramatic much?
> 
> "The paths of German and American shepherds diverged after World War II. The Americans continued largely with the Pfeffer and Odin lines while in Germany the breed was in poor shape. Many dogs had been killed or destroyed due to lack of food. The best that was left was bred, frequently outcross breedings, since there was no great selection of line-bred stock. "
> 
> "Although starting with a common base, the breed in Germany and America has taken a separate but parallel course. The Americans, largely through Lance, and the Germans, largely through Canto and Quanto, have evolved closely-bred, although differing breeds in looks, movment, style, and structure. Both systems have cemented both desirable and undesirable characteristics into the breed. The Americans have the option to persue their own views and choose their own bloodline courses whether from within or outside their country. The Germans, controlled by the SV, will likely continue to look within to develop the breed. The future will be interesting for the breed in both countries ... "
> 
> The German Shepherd Dog, breed history
> 
> They are already different dogs.
> 
> RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different


Thanks for the links. Esp. the second. Seems very interesting. Too much to read right now, but seems like a high validity, good reading.


----------



## zudnic

shepherdmom said:


> :rolleyes2: dramatic much?
> 
> "The paths of German and American shepherds diverged after World War II. The Americans continued largely with the Pfeffer and Odin lines while in Germany the breed was in poor shape. Many dogs had been killed or destroyed due to lack of food. The best that was left was bred, frequently outcross breedings, since there was no great selection of line-bred stock. "
> 
> "Although starting with a common base, the breed in Germany and America has taken a separate but parallel course. The Americans, largely through Lance, and the Germans, largely through Canto and Quanto, have evolved closely-bred, although differing breeds in looks, movment, style, and structure. Both systems have cemented both desirable and undesirable characteristics into the breed. The Americans have the option to persue their own views and choose their own bloodline courses whether from within or outside their country. The Germans, controlled by the SV, will likely continue to look within to develop the breed. The future will be interesting for the breed in both countries ... "
> 
> The German Shepherd Dog, breed history
> 
> They are already different dogs.
> 
> RSV2000 .:. German Shepherd lines are genetically different


The European working lines are closer historically to the early Shepherds conformation wise, both the German and American show lines have strayed from the standard to win in the show ring. Myself if they are shown in sieger shows I prefer the SG rated dogs to the V rated. 

Dogs like Shadow Vom Salztalblick. Their conformation just looks like its built to work.


----------



## Chip18

shepherdmom said:


> Well after the comments about the other guy I was just being a smarty about her.  But I don't understand what makes her qualifications better than the other guy?
> 
> I like what she calls "the square type" look.


Ironically enough...if your every coming to Carson Tractor Supply, Pm me and I can show you!


----------



## Chip18

Well chimming in again...I have to say that so far at 18 pages no one has "nutted up???"

At the risk of "wrecking" "our" record...the fact's "seem" to be that law enforcement and the military are moving away from the GSD and to the Malinois??

The Showline GSD's seem to be "morphing" the WL GSD's and thus the change in perferance for LE and Military??

I think it's time for a split! JQP looks to the AKC and dog shows for what a GSD is "suppose" to look like!

Instead of "morphing" the WL dogs into SL dogs ...split them up! Then people will have a better understanding of what a WL GSD is suppose to look like and do!

And WL people will have less cause for "concern!"


Just a thought.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The battle will ensue as to who owns the title of 'German Shepherd Dog" though.

Domestication = specialization. Aways has and always will.

Not too big a quandary when you talk about Herefords vs Holsteins, they are both 'cows'. 

Dogs, on the other hand.....

opcorn:



Chip18 said:


> Well chimming in again...I have to say that so far at 18 pages no one has "nutted up???"
> 
> At the risk of "wrecking" "our" record...the fact's "seem" to be that law enforcement and the military are moving away from the GSD and to the Malinois??
> 
> The Showline GSD's seem to be "morphing" the WL GSD's and thus the change in perferance for LE and Military??
> 
> I think it's time for a split! JQP looks to the AKC and dog shows for what a GSD is "suppose" to look like!
> 
> *Instead of "morphing" the WL dogs into SL dogs ...split them up! *Then people will have a better understanding of what a WL GSD is suppose to look like and do!
> 
> And WL people will have less cause for "concern!"
> 
> 
> Just a thought.


----------



## WesS

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The battle will ensue as to who owns the title of 'German Shepherd Dog" though.
> 
> Domestication = specialization. Aways has and always will.
> 
> Not too big a quandary when you talk about Herefords vs Holsteins, they are both 'cows'.
> 
> Dogs, on the other hand.....


I don't know. Can't say I recognize the different cows. 
What I do know a little bit about is food (sort of). And a pound of Kobe beef can be 150 dollars and upwards. 

I think I'll just call my dog a wolf from now on. They all come from there anyways.


----------



## Kahrg4

WesS said:


> I think I'll just call my dog a wolf from now on. They all come from there anyways.


Small side track, the most recent DNA research has found that dogs are not necessarily descended from wolves. The latest findings suggest dogs and wolves are two separate branches of the canine family that once had an ancient ancestor in common. More like dogs and wolves are more like distant cousins, not that dogs come from wolves. Interesting, no?


----------



## WesS

Kahrg4 said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'll just call my dog a wolf from now on. They all come from there anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> Small side track, the most recent DNA research has found that dogs are not necessarily descended from wolves. The latest findings suggest dogs and wolves are two separate branches of the canine family that once had an ancient ancestor in common. More like dogs and wolves are more like distant cousins, not that dogs come from wolves. Interesting, no?
Click to expand...

Yes interesting. Everything I read about origins of the dog is sketchy at best. 

Where is this research? I would love to look at it. Do you know the name of the researcher, or name of paper?


----------



## Jax08

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The battle will ensue as to who owns the title of 'German Shepherd Dog" though.
> 
> 
> 
> opcorn:


Cousin in law called Seger "a colorful dingo". Can we start a new breed with that? The American Dingo?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Jax08 said:


> Cousin in law called Seger "a colorful dingo". Can we start a new breed with that? The American Dingo?


Yup,
The American Colorful Dingo dog
The ACDD
Or the American Colorful Dingo Canine
the ACDC 
They will rock- ✊


----------



## Kahrg4

WesS said:


> Where is this research? I would love to look at it. Do you know the name of the researcher, or name of paper?


Here's the first couple articles I found:

Dogs are more closely related to each other than to wolves - but they evolved from a common ancestor 34,000 years ago | Daily Mail Online

Dogs' Closest Wolf Ancestors Went Extinct, Study Suggests

Dogs Not as Close Kin to Wolves as Thought : Discovery News


And if you'd like to read the actual scientific study and it's findings here's that link:

PLOS Genetics: Genome Sequencing Highlights the Dynamic Early History of Dogs


----------



## selzer

There is very little difference between the SV standard, and they AKC standard. How they are applied, how the judges apply the standard in the US and in Germany, might be a bit different. And, how the breed club in Germany has the power to require health screenings, titles, performance, show rating, etc in order to be bred, where the AKC, being a different kind of registry, and all-breed registry really doesn't have that scope. They have something things that educated buyers can require: They have VA dogs, who have to have passed health screenings as well as the show rating -- you can see these dogs at the nationals, kind of runners up to the Grand Victor. 

There is something called ROM -- Register of Merit, where a dam is awarded points for progeny that reaches their champion title, and for those that achieve performance titles. 

There is a certificate that your dog can get if it passes the health screenings, hips, elbows, etc, through OFA and the eye testing through CERF. 

And the AKC offers titles in many performance sports, plus a temperament test. 

A buyer might want their pup to come out of a sire and dam who have at least one ROM behind both of them, a sire and dam who have the certificates for all the health clearances, sire and dam who have titles. 

The AKC is fine. Breeders and buyers both, pick and choose what they feel is important in breeding stock. How we hang that on the AKC, I don't know.


----------



## WesS

Kahrg4 said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is this research? I would love to look at it. Do you know the name of the researcher, or name of paper?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the first couple articles I found:
> 
> Dogs are more closely related to each other than to wolves - but they evolved from a common ancestor 34,000 years ago | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Dogs' Closest Wolf Ancestors Went Extinct, Study Suggests
> 
> Dogs Not as Close Kin to Wolves as Thought : Discovery News
> 
> 
> And if you'd like to read the actual scientific study and it's findings here's that link:
> 
> PLOS Genetics: Genome Sequencing Highlights the Dynamic Early History of Dogs
Click to expand...

Yea read original source you provided. The other articles are sensualist as per usual.

Amongst getting lost in a lot genetics basically the article was not very conclusive about anything. They talked about several hypothesis.

From what I understood the one they seemed to think more of a possibility is that dogs are descendants from an extinct line of wolf.

To be honest this research is not really saying anything really new. 

Say you had x wolf type that found survival by hanging with humans. We'll surely the ones that couldn't hang would most likely be thinned out by natural selection. Humans would kill the aggressive ones lingering to steal from them and accept the rest.

Either way thank you. Was a very interesting article. But the only thing it really said is speculate if dogs are really descendants of the wolves as we know it today. (Did not rule this out however as a theory.) And apart for some wolf mixing over the years. We kind of knew that evolutionary lines split some time ago.

The question, that is still not certain after the paper is when. But we never did know that exactly anyways. Always a best prediction, and the article does the same thing based a lot on a gene evolved for carb intake. Now the article states one of the reasons for variation could be in fact selective breeding and different evolution. 

I think again this is another case of media jumping on the dogs aren't wolves bandwagon with many all positives. The same way mech is constantly misunderstood and misquoted by the same group of people.

When we see big 'new' research and claims from news sites, need to always read original piece cause often they just sensualist it to sell a story.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

People into cattle do, said the mid-western farmer's daughter. One is bred to produce milk, the other meat. 

So a lot of people don't know the difference between the GSD lines either.

The macro point is, the lines have separated. It's part of a larger process that has occurred with all domesticated animals over the last 10,000 plus years, even with humans really.

Like the cows, they have specialized dogs to be more extreme in what they produce.

It hurts when I see the videos of WGSLs running away from a helper when he just makes eye contact and raises a stick.

However, on the other side of the equation, it hurts when I see a LEO dog that has no out...at....all.....and bites officers too.....

I think part of it is true, what our WL breeders here say, that the SLs have gotten away from their working roots. It's also true that some WLs have gotten extreme and now they aren't extreme _enough_ for Military/Police many times. So what is being demanded of the dogs has changed as well. (I'm kind of glad they are going to malis, let the malis be the super specialized Seal Team 6 kind of dogs....)

Demands and expectations shift as much, if not more, then the animals. More specialization, more and more. "Jack of all trades" just aren't valued anymore, whether it's a cow, a horse or a dog or a human looking for a job......

The people who love the breed, breeders themselves, often can't agree within their own lines. 

'Tis the way it is and all one can do is find the dog that fits them and their family.

Be it a Golden with a GSD coat, or a Pyrenees with a GSD coat, or a wolf with a GSD coat....




WesS said:


> I don't know. Can't say I recognize the different cows.
> What I do know a little bit about is food (sort of). And a pound of Kobe beef can be 150 dollars and upwards.
> 
> I think I'll just call my dog a wolf from now on. They all come from there anyways.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:wild:


Oooooo wait-a-minute!

Why not?

I sense an opportunity here, a new "designer" breed...... 




Jax08 said:


> Cousin in law called Seger "a colorful dingo". Can we start a new breed with that? The American Dingo?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

errr, Wes, I think you mean 'sensationalize'. Normally I'm not the spelling police, since I make a lot of typos myself, but you did it twice and it's a rather amusing misspelling.


----------



## WesS

Gwenhwyfair said:


> errr, Wes, I think you mean 'sensationalize'. Normally I'm not the spelling police, since I make a lot of typos myself, but you did it twice and it's a rather amusing misspelling.


Sensualist - a person devoted to physical, especially sexual, pleasure. That is rather amusing  haha.


----------



## martemchik

SkoobyDoo said:


> Have you owned one of each of the different lines? Do you own now, an American show line, a German one and also a working dog or 3?
> If not, how do you know this, then?? *Why even call it a GSD? Those dogs, if they are already not different, will eventually be completely different. Simply put, they will cease to be a GSD at all.*
> Or are you just regurgitating what some of the "old timers" who bash different lines have been typing over the past however long this forums been alive??



I do wish there was less selective reading/responding on this forum. Sometimes a few credentials would be nice when you get such strong opinions.

Truthfully...I don't really have time for anyone that brings up Max Von Stephanitz. World has changed, society has changed, time to understand how and why the breed has evolved since that time.


----------



## SuperG

martemchik said:


> World has changed, society has changed, time to understand how and why the breed has evolved since that time.


Kind of hard to argue against this.....the breed certainly has changed since Max days. Lykoz you have to appreciate this.


SuperG


----------



## shepherdmom

SuperG said:


> Kind of hard to argue against this.....the breed certainly has changed since Max days.
> 
> SuperG


It really has gone in all kinds of different directions. I don't know about splitting it up tho because that cuts down the genetic diversity and can't that create more problems in the long run?


----------



## RockyK9

martemchik said:


> I do wish there was less selective reading/responding on this forum. Sometimes a few credentials would be nice when you get such strong opinions.
> 
> Truthfully...I don't really have time for anyone that brings up Max Von Stephanitz. World has changed, society has changed, time to understand how and why the breed has evolved since that time.


 Why would one need credentials for strong opinions? You have them as well. Where are yours? Everyone is entitled to an opinion strong or not. It IS a message board after all. 

As far as Max goes , to me this should continue to be the standard we strive for regardless of where people or groups are trying to change it. The breed has evolved?  Maybe but not in the way the founder intended or in a way that many agree on. Too sporty , too aggressive , slop back , no courage , no natural aggression ..... etc...


----------



## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> I do wish there was less selective reading/responding on this forum. Sometimes a few credentials would be nice when you get such strong opinions. World has changed, society has changed, time to understand how and why the breed has evolved since that time.


Breeds do evolve. More often than not, they don't evolve as one group, they develop subsets...would you agree? 



martemchik said:


> My apologies that in my opinion, when a discussion is happening about the breed standard, I feel like it's important that those making very black/white statements, provide where they got those opinions from. What are their experiences with GSD, and not just owning, but going to trials and shows. How involved they are with the breed and where they got their information.


I don't think you owe an apology at all. You made some really good points in your first post although getting out and observing the breed isn't always as easy as it sounds.


----------



## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> Well chimming in again...I have to say that so far at 18 pages no one has "nutted up???"
> 
> At the risk of "wrecking" "our" record...the fact's "seem" to be that law enforcement and the military are moving away from the GSD and to the Malinois??
> 
> The Showline GSD's seem to be "morphing" the WL GSD's and thus the change in perferance for LE and Military??
> 
> I think it's time for a split! JQP looks to the AKC and dog shows for what a GSD is "suppose" to look like!
> 
> Instead of "morphing" the WL dogs into SL dogs ...split them up! Then people will have a better understanding of what a WL GSD is suppose to look like and do!
> 
> And WL people will have less cause for "concern!"
> 
> 
> Just a thought.


I kind of agree but I kind of disagree also. If they are split up then there can be no cross breeding? If I understand the things I've read on here before correctly then many of the temperament problems can be traced back to a certain dog (Canto ?) and if they were split wouldn't that then cut down on the diversity?


----------



## SuperG

shepherdmom said:


> It really has gone in all kinds of different directions. I don't know about splitting it up tho because that cuts down the genetic diversity and can't that create more problems in the long run?


That's a great question...genetic diversity certainly has its pluses and minuses. Without human involvement, wild animals have seem to done just fine and I wonder if that leans more toward less genetic diversity but then natural selection is more prevalent in the wild. I'm somewhat a believer that many of the breed problems we see today are the result of human meddling....hopefully some breed problems have been reduced due to human involvement.


SuperG


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> It really has gone in all kinds of different directions. I don't know about splitting it up tho because that cuts down the genetic diversity and can't that create more problems in the long run?



It will never get split up. Look at the rules on splitting breeds, the AKC and FCI basically won't do it anymore. They won't even allow new variations anymore (for show purposes). Anyways...doesn't matter. The discussion is pointless, nothing that people complain about on a forum will ever happen unless those people get out and do something about it. Show/trial your dog, move up in the world, gain some knowledge and respect from the powers that be, and maybe one day you can affect change. Talking about it on the forum won't change anything especially if no one really understands how to actually affect that change in real life or is working towards having a say in the future of this breed.

There's plenty of genetic diversity. And good dogs are abundant. The working dogs today, overall and at the top levels, would wipe the floor with anything from 30 years ago and further back. People's understanding of training and how to communicate with animals is light years ahead of what it was even 20 years ago. The dogs match those abilities. 

Structure is hard to discuss because you need people to understand it and not just spew their opinion of what it should be. Of course I prefer "working structure" but I also understand what it is the SV and even the AKC is looking for in the show ring and WHY they look for that. I don't agree with it, but it does make sense to myself and many other people. You need to be able to separate subjectivity and objectivity in these types of discussions, which unfortunately many people cannot do.


----------



## SkoobyDoo

I think martem is saying you should form your opinions on seeing the actual dogs and working with them, not sitting on your butt reading other people's opinions 
I could be wrong though! It has happened before!


----------



## SuperG

The SV maintains that coats only breed with coats ....so there is a slight "splitting" of superficial qualities.


SuperG


----------



## shepherdmom

mattpayne said:


> The breed has evolved?  Maybe but not in the way the founder intended or in a way that many agree on. Too sporty , too aggressive , slop back , no courage , no natural aggression ..... etc...


No one can know, at this point, what the founder would say about the dogs today and frankly its a moot point. Time marches on. Dogs today do not have the same lifestyles as back then just as we do not. If law enforcement needs them to know sniff for drugs rather than heard sheep then that is the direction it needs to turn?


----------



## Mrs.P

SkoobyDoo said:


> I think martem is saying you should form your opinions on seeing the actual dogs and working with them, not sitting on your butt reading other people's opinions


 

:thumbup:


----------



## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> It will never get split up. Look at the rules on splitting breeds, the AKC and FCI basically won't do it anymore. They won't even allow new variations anymore (for show purposes)


Let me just say two words.... Swiss Shepherd.


----------



## shepherdmom

SuperG said:


> The SV maintains that coats only breed with coats ....so there is a slight "splitting" of superficial qualities.
> 
> SuperG


I didn't know that. I know SV only started allowing coats recently but didn't realize they could only breed with other coats. Interesting.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Let me just say two words.... Swiss Shepherd.



I know you usually don't give up on your points...but it won't happen. AKC has said so many times.

Biggest issue...you can breed white to regular today and get them registered as pure bred GSD. White is a variation, but due to mixed breeding being possible with registered dogs, what do you do when you have a white puppy occur from a regular/regular breeding? Do you register it as a Swiss then? Then that dog will just have GSD in his pedigree but be registered as a different breed? It gets way too confusing. A white shepherd can be registered as a purebred and have full registration, end of story, no need for variation.

A split won't do anything in regards to genetic diversity for that variation either. It would actually cut whites off from getting more diversity from the regular dogs. At this point, a breeder can still introduce a colored dog, keep whites, breed those, try to keep them white from that generation on. But if the breed is split off, they won't be able to do that anymore.

If you want to see whites be accepted in the breed ring...you have to push for a change in standard (a lot like what happened with coated dogs).


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> I know you usually don't give up on your points...but it won't happen. AKC has said so many times.
> 
> If you want to see whites be accepted in the breed ring...you have to push for a change in standard (a lot like what happened with coated dogs).


Me personally, I'd rather not see whites put into the breed ring. I don't want to see them get that angled rear. I guess I'm confused tho I thought that the BBS is a separate registration since the SV won't recognize them? 



> Biggest issue...you can breed white to regular today and get them registered as pure bred GSD. White is a variation, but due to mixed breeding being possible with registered dogs, what do you do when you have a white puppy occur from a regular/regular breeding? Do you register it as a Swiss then? Then that dog will just have GSD in his pedigree but be registered as a different breed? It gets way too confusing. A white shepherd can be registered as a purebred and have full registration, end of story, no need for variation.


Good point on how the registration works. So can an AKC born white not get registered as a BBS?


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## martemchik

Whiteshepherds said:


> Breeds do evolve. More often than not, they don't evolve as one group, they develop subsets...would you agree?


 My personal opinion is if it works, it works. I won't dismiss a dog ever because of color, back angulation, rear angulation, whatever it is. When it comes to picking dogs (especially puppies) you have to stack the odds, and at this point, a white shepherd is not the way to go if your goal is IPO or a working venue. The subset isn’t a bad thing. If a dog proves itself it should definitely be used in a breeding program. The reason a white isn’t introduced into regular lines is basically due to the breed standard, if the standard was adjusted, you’d see a change in that. And of course you’ll have plenty of breeders that won’t touch a white anyways, but you have plenty today that won’t breed a coated dog or mix lines for the very same reason. They have their opinions on what the dogs should be, and that’s what they’ll breed. As long as they follow certain protocols, and have a clear goal to improve the breed, it really doesn’t matter. In the long run, one breeder really doesn’t affect the direction of the breed as much as we like to think either. Small time breeders, producing strong, stable dogs, nothing wrong with it. Even huge stud dogs, that are bred hundreds of times, don’t affect the direction of the breed as much as we’d like to believe. One hundred out of thousands of breedings really doesn’t matter much at the end of the day.

@mattpayne…my credentials/history with the breed is very well known by those that want to know it. Don’t feel the need to protect/defend “one of your own” just because you haven’t done the necessary research or looked back on what it is I have done. My only statement in this thread was really that people need to get out and gain that experience themselves. In just a few years of being involved with the breed, instead of just reading old/out dated opinions, I’ve learned way more than most people that have owned GSD for decades. And at the end of the day…until people get off the computer and do something, none of these “proposed changes” will ever happen.


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## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Me personally, I'd rather not see whites put into the breed ring. I don't want to see them get that angled rear. I guess I'm confused tho I thought that the BBS is a separate registration since the SV won't recognize them?
> 
> Good point on how the registration works. So can an AKC born white not get registered as a BBS?


The BBS isn't a recognized breed of the AKC. So you can't register them. I'm not sure how it works if/when you export an American born white shepherd to another country, but I would be shocked if you can register that dog as a BBS with the FCI. I'm fairly certain the FCI still accepts white GSD registration as a pure bred GSD.

I'm like 99% sure you can't register a white GSD with the SV. Not sure about the USCA but I would imagine that you can't do that either and if you were to trial a white GSD it would be as a "mixed breed." That's basically how the SV keeps whites out, and its due to the breed standard and not allowing them to register, if you can't register your dog, no one will use it as a stud, or breed to it. I'm not sure when that was added to the breed standard, as that has never really interested me as I don't care at all what color the dog is, as long as it works.

Most of the confusion with "registration" is due to the lack of understanding of what the AKC, GSDCA, USCA, SV, FCI, ect is. There are so many organizations, and in different countries, they have different powers.


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> The BBS isn't a recognized breed of the AKC. So you can't register them. I'm not sure how it works if/when you export an American born white shepherd to another country, but I would be shocked if you can register that dog as a BBS with the FCI. I'm fairly certain the FCI still accepts white GSD registration as a pure bred GSD.
> 
> I'm like 99% sure you can't register a white GSD with the SV. Not sure about the USCA but I would imagine that you can't do that either and if you were to trial a white GSD it would be as a "mixed breed." That's basically how the SV keeps whites out, and its due to the breed standard and not allowing them to register, if you can't register your dog, no one will use it as a stud, or breed to it. I'm not sure when that was added to the breed standard, as that has never really interested me as I don't care at all what color the dog is, as long as it works.
> 
> Most of the confusion with "registration" is due to the lack of understanding of what the AKC, GSDCA, USCA, SV, FCI, ect is. There are so many organizations, and in different countries, they have different powers.


I think this has come up in another thread. Ahh here I found it. 



> The American White Shepherd Association is the parent club for the White Shepherd and the BBS (same dogs, name changes depending what country you live in) in the US and continues to work with the AKC in an effort to gain FSS status. At this point in time we (AWSA) are very pleased with our progress. Again, this isn't an easy or short road but we believe these dogs deserve to have full breed recognition out from under the stigma they've carried for so long and away from the GSDCA.
> 
> 
> I wonder why the GSDCA holds on so tightly to dogs that carry one of the 5 disqualifying faults in the breed. (or maybe it's 6) If the job of a parent club is to protect the integrity of a breed one would think their first order of business would be to eliminate dogs that were intentionally bred with faults. If they don't believe the dogs are faulty why haven't they lifted the dq?? Food for thought.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...erman-shepherd-vs-white-swiss-shepherd-2.html


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## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> The BBS isn't a recognized breed of the AKC. So you can't register them. I'm not sure how it works if/when you export an American born white shepherd to another country, but I would be shocked if you can register that dog as a BBS with the FCI. I'm fairly certain the FCI still accepts white GSD registration as a pure bred GSD.


The AKC registers FCI Berger Blanc Suisse as GSD's.

Exporting AKC white GSD's and UKC White Shepherds for use by BBS breeders in FCI countries can be a problem because they are no longer allowed into the BBS breed, however, some countries still use an appendix so they dogs are filtered in that way. (happening less and less, the appendix's were supposed to close in 2003) It's all very complicated. 



martemchik said:


> Not sure about the USCA but I would imagine that you can't do that either and if you were to trial a white GSD it would be as a "mixed breed."


If I'm not mistaken the USCA recognizes the true Berger Blanc Suisse (dogs with FCI BBS papers) as a distinct breed, not a mixed breed and not a GSD. (It's much more common to see BBS doing IPO in Europe than it is to see white GSD's doing it here in the states.)

The problem in getting the whites recognized as a separate breed here in the states is not with the AKC, it's the GSDCA. In order to get them recognized the GSDCA has to agree not to oppose the FSS application. 

Bottom line is things keep changing..it's hard to keep up.


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## Palydyn

According to breeders of whites I talked to the problem with whites and the AKC lies with the SV who unfortunately seem to be calling the shots. Their homeboy Capt. Max thought the white masking gene was a flaw (since disproven) but they cling to their boy and his ideas. GSDCA follows the wishes of the SV as does the AKC. However not to lose a cash cow the AKC gratiously let owners of whites to register them and take their money, they just can't show them (so what's the point?). They register BBS as GSD's for the same reason MONEY. After years and years of trying to work within the system BBS (FCI) white shepherds (UKC/AWSA) went their own way. Probably ends up being better for the whites in the long run. I'm not a fan of the AKC or GSDCA, we know what they are, its just a question of how much. And those of you who think a separate breed will fare better under them are sadly mistaken. The SV and purists win and everybody loses.


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## martemchik

Palydyn...can you expand? Mostly on why you believe that a separate club would do anything to benefit the white GSD in this country? It's just been my experience that self regulated, optional, clubs are really of little benefit to the overall direction of the breed.

I just don't think that breed clubs have any amount of real power to guide the breeding decisions people are making. Most breeders of GSD aren't members of the GSDCA or the USCA, so how can anything those organizations do affect the direction of a breed when most people don't even participate in them or really care that much about what it is they do.


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## carmspack

well martemchik if you took the time to read von Stephanitz you would see that whites were not desirable because it made it difficult for the shepherd to see the dog - no contrast between dog and the mass of sheep --- AND -- the sheep considered the dog one of them - power to direct them was at a loss

that is why many of the sheep guardian dog breeds are white - so that the do not intimidate the sheep 

strong pigment called for no matter what colour


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## martemchik

well carmspack, if you actually took the time to evolve and realize its 2015 and not 1915, you'd see that the majority of German Shepherds are no longer herding sheep for a living. So I'm fairly certain that in today's application of GSD, no one cares what color they are. Also, note that I don't currently own a white GSD, will ever own a white GSD, or breed a white GSD. So really, I don't care what happens to them. I'm just stating the reasons why it is where it is today and why the AKC hasn't recognized it as a separate breed. At the end of the day, I couldn't care less if the SV, AKC, or anything else accepts them as it will never affect me, what I need from this breed and the various organization involved with it, is already in place. What I hate more than anything is the regurgitation of biased and subjective information on this forum, get out, look at the dogs, figure out what the various organizations are doing, and make a decision for yourself. Not one based on anything written 100 years ago or even 5 years ago.

I'd love to see the proof that a white GSD is any less capable of herding a flock of sheep than a black/tan one.


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## carmspack

just as there are different breeds of cows , bred for a reason, there are different breeds of sheep , also bred for a reason . Each breed delivers a different product at the end , whether milk for cheese, wool for materials , and meat . Each breed of sheep does best under different conditons , and are farmed , raised, pastured in a different manner.

The collie type dogs and the german shepherd dogs did not deal with the same breeds nor the same style of grazing.

Continental Europe , Germany , used shepherd's dogs as living fences , with extreme need to have those sheep grazing calmly within a very well defined border . 
These sheep were strong stubborn sheep ready to turn on a dog -- not like the sheep in the highlands of the UK .


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## martemchik

Here’s a fun statement for everyone to digest and discuss…

The breed stays where it does because *PEOPLE *are unwilling to change with the times. It’s easier to bad mouth something better, than to step up and produce a dog that can compete with what has proven to be superior. Easier to talk about how the breed is being ruined, especially to people who aren’t involved enough to see otherwise. Those that hide behind Max’s writings and words…please prove to me that the dogs from the 1970s are like the dogs from the 1930s, and how only recently there has been a departure from what Max wrote. 

The departure started the moment Max stepped down. The dogs some of the people on this forum talk about from four decades ago are 100% a departure from what Max bred, just like today they are a departure from four decades ago as well. Is it for better or worse? That’s up to each individual to decide…and the only way they can do that is if they get out and get involved…not just regurgitate what is told to them by people they’ve never met or have any idea what kind of experience they have either. No one alive today, has any idea what the dogs were like 100 years ago and what it is that Max wanted. Everyone is interpreting the standard, and his words, the way they want. 

Fun herding analogy: Don’t be a sheep. Don’t just follow whatever it is the wolf or the dog tells you. Get out there and figure it out for yourself. Everyone needs to form their own opinion, and not just go along with whatever someone else says or writes. 

Straight back? Roach back? Slanted back? – All of these are internet/marketing buzz words people use to discredit or bad mouth what someone else is doing. They mean nothing in the big picture of “is a dog able to work?”


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## Saphire

martemchik said:


> well carmspack, if you actually took the time to evolve and realize its 2015 and not 1915, you'd see that the majority of German Shepherds are no longer herding sheep for a living.


It is no longer important that the GSD have the ability to herd sheep?


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> Straight back? Roach back? Slanted back? – All of these are internet/marketing buzz words people use to discredit or bad mouth what someone else is doing. They mean nothing in the big picture of “is a dog able to work?”


and working is your buzz word.  

Some people are concerned with the health implications of straight back/angled back thing. 

I'd be perfectly fine with a healthy good tempered couch potato that lived 20+ years.


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## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Straight back? Roach back? Slanted back? ? All of these are internet/marketing buzz words people use to discredit or bad mouth what someone else is doing. They mean nothing in the big picture of ?is a dog able to work??
> 
> 
> 
> and working is your buzz word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some people are concerned with the health implications of straight back/angled back thing.
> 
> I'd be perfectly fine with a healthy good tempered couch potato that lived 20+ years.
Click to expand...

It has been said and proven dozens of times on this forum that the angulation of the rear has nothing to do with the health of the hips.

20+ years? Get a different breed, possibly a different species.


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## Castlemaid

At this point and time, I'd like to bring everyone's attention to this board announcement. From reading some of these replies, it doesn't look like everyone has seen this yet:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/administrator-messages/558506-personal-bickering.html


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## carmspack

if you look at the bigger picture you will see that this is a non specialized breed .

in the beginning there were indigenous working dogs each with qualities that were beneficial to the work and environments in which they worked . These 4 groups were brought together .
By understanding this the breed can be kept with all of the valuable generalist , versatile , utilitarian work characteristics throughout the decades. You need to know where something came from. 

You loose intelligence, genetic obedience , fight drive , initiative (independent responsible decisions paired with controllability )


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## Jax08

HGH training

Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm


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## Chip18

Jax08 said:


> HGH training
> 
> Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm


Hey I saw!


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## Jax08

Unfortunately, I think it's the only place.


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## martemchik

Jax08 said:


> HGH training
> 
> Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm



Review? How is your dog progressing with the training?

I have to have more than just a website that says 2 training spots are available in order to drop everything and move to NY so that I can start herding with my breeding stock. As it is clear that anyone with less than 50 years of experience in the breed is expected to go way above and beyond what those with "experience" do. Even those that...didn't need to live up to the same expectations that are clearly being placed on the newer people to the breed.

I guess doing IPO, health testing, being one of the two people on this forum to attend the USCA national championship and the national Sieger show in the last year just isn't enough. Must be doing it wrong. Should be reading 100 year old books rather than actually attending current events. Horand clearly has a greater affect on where this breed goes in the next few years than Iron does.

Hopefully one day the forum will grant me the breaks they grant all these other people on the forum. Maybe someone can tell me how many more years it will take?


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## Jax08

Really Max? You want to be a jerk because I posted a link for herding? You posted a blurb challenging Carmen to find a place. I posted a place. I think you might be over reacting.

What is your problem? I don't even interact with you or Alexis because of the way you behave. Do you think I'm impressed that you want to the nationals, as a spectator? Or the Sieger show, as a spectator? Or that you do IPO? Or that you do health testing? Nobody needs you or Alexis. Lots of very knowledgeable people out there.

So I post a link to a herding trainer and you attack me? Go get a life.

And I'll play your card...the people that need to know how my dog is progressing in training do know.


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## martemchik

Can I ask how that's an attack?

You posted about a place to herd, I want to know how good the person is. That happens all the time on this forum. But when I do it? It's an attack?

I bring up the fact that dogs don't herd anymore, and then I'm told that herding is necessary. None of the other breeders seem it's necessary, but somehow it's necessary for me to start herding my dog. Just wondering where the line is?


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## onyx'girl

you've never heard of Ulf?


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## martemchik

Here comes the Calvary!!!


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> It has been said and proven dozens of times on this forum that the angulation of the rear has nothing to do with the health of the hips.
> 
> 20+ years? Get a different breed, possibly a different species.


Become a crazy cat lady instead of the crazy German Shepherd lady? :laugh:

No I just want to see the GSD get healthier and last longer. A dream I know. 




> if you look at the bigger picture you will see that this is a non specialized breed .
> 
> in the beginning there were indigenous working dogs each with qualities that were beneficial to the work and environments in which they worked . These 4 groups were brought together .
> By understanding this the breed can be kept with all of the valuable generalist , versatile , utilitarian work characteristics throughout the decades. You need to know where something came from.
> 
> You loose intelligence, genetic obedience , fight drive , initiative (independent responsible decisions paired with controllability )


When you put it this way it makes sense. So they need the working ability as well as the health and the temperament to make them what they are?


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## gsdsar

MODERATOR HAT: Stop. Now. This is a general warning to all those involved in the petty back and forth bickering. You will not get a warning for the next infraction, you will get s time out. It's embarrassing that adults are behaving this way. 

HAT OFF: 

There are many facets of numerous tests that can be used to determine the character and breed worthiness of a dog. No test is perfect. 

No, pretty much no dog no a days needs to herd for a living. But the training and testing involved in learning that discipline can teach you a lot about the dogs biddability, courage, stamina, work ethic. So it is a valuable test. It's just not the only one. 

IPO: it's a sport. It's a fun sport and again it teaches you a lot about a dogs courage and trainabity. But, like herding, few dogs competing in the sport use the phases in the real world. Your dog may have an FH2. But that does not mean nor should it imply the fog can actually track a human in real world circumstances. 

Yes our needs for our dogs have changed and evolved over time. It's bound to happen. But that does not mean we should discount what their original purpose was and strive to find ways to ensure we are staying true to that.


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## Saphire

martemchik said:


> Can I ask how that's an attack?


It's not necessarily what you say (although sometimes it is) but more, how you say it.


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