# Cesar millan?!



## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

I watch this show a lot and I was just wondering like a lot of people here say never hit your dog never hit your dog. This guy be like punching his dogs yet they are all great dogs 


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

I physical correct my dogs. Yes.


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## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

When I said is it ok to spank my puppy butt everyone attacked me...


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Is he punching them for correction or playing? You can get pretty rough with dogs in play and it's fine (depending on the dog) but I'd be wary of frequent physical corrections.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

I be like watching his show all the time and I ain't never seen dat.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Re evaluate what your looking at. Correcting your dog appropriately be it with a prong, rolled newspaper or your fingers is all in timing and mindset. Doing it wrong usually gets you no where doing it right has benifits that become immidiately apparent. 
Go find trainers that have numerous well trained dogs to their name and learn what you can. Imo there is much that can be learned from milan if you park your preconcieved notions at the door.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

You don't want to spank your pup, it will make him hand shy.


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## wrenevere (Jan 31, 2014)

I believe what Cesar does is a very particular way of handling dogs, one that can be easily misinterpreted - and that's what makes it dangerous. 

I also thinks at times he goes a little overboard. I recall an episode of a lab afraid of gunshots and thunder and I cringed when he forced it to walk on a treadmill while thunder was playing. I mean, in the end the dog handled it better, but I just think the dog could have just been maintained to stay away from gunshots (how many dogs NEED to hear gunshots on a regular basis?) as well as thunder, I mean even using medication if necessary..it just seemed overboard.

THAT being said, I still think some of his methods DO work, even pretty well, if used properly. I have seen dogs become really reactive when all it would have taken in the beginning was a simple leash correction and they would have listened.

I think Cesar works best with dogs that are strong willed. I have had a lot of dogs in my life and I've had dogs that I would NEVER use physical force on just because they were much too timid, but I have also had dogs that would have walked all over me if I was just like "Do what I want and you get treats".

Sorry for the mini-essay. Just my two-cents


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Doesn't Cesar given a physical correction where he gently pokes the dog in certain areas much like another dog would? I have not seen him punch a dog.

Dogs do not need to be hit, any dog, but especially highly intelligent dogs such as GSDs, if you are clear and consistent with your commands, then they will know what you want - you don't have to hit him to get him to do what you want. If they are not, then you are doing something wrong - he is getting confused by by you.

If you are getting frustrated with your dog, far better to leave for a while so that you don't react in anger and work with him when feeling calmer.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Ive never seen him punch a dog. I dont ever see him get emotional either, he comes off as happy go lucky with his clients but when he works with a dog he does not get emotionally involved, I would think you would have to be pretty upset to full out punch your dog.

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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

You only, well we only see what he wants us to see.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> ...
> you don't have to hit him to get him to do what you want.
> ...


Now about NOT to do, like biting?


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

alexg said:


> Now about NOT to do, like biting?


same opinion, you don't have to hit a dog to get him NOT to do things


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

alexg said:


> Now about NOT to do, like biting?



I don't think I would hit a dog for biting. I don't see how that would work. For puppies we teach them to be gentle. For older dogs, I suppose, you would have to teach them not to bite, or to be gentle. But I think a physical correction could go way wrong.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> same opinion, you don't have to hit a dog to get him NOT to do things



Your saying if your dog straight up bites you, not by accident. You wouldn't physical correct your dog!? Righttttttttt. 

I'd pick his butt up and throw him out of my house.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Curious how would people correct their dog for biting if not physically? I would think since it's a very serious thing the punishment needs to fit the crime. I mean an older dog not a puppy of course


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

nikon22shooter said:


> Your saying if your dog straight up bites you, not by accident. You wouldn't physical correct your dog!? Righttttttttt.
> 
> I'd pick his butt up and throw him out of my house.


My dogs have never bitten me, so I don't know what my reaction would be. Have your dogs bitten you?

I would imagine if they bit me through excitement or play, I would not hit them, I can only assume they need further training on bite inhibition and I would need to work on this. If they bit through fear of something, I would not hit them. If they bit through aggression, I would not hit them, but rather work with them using positive training methods. 

Its like 2 dogs in a serious fight - if people scream and yell at the dogs it only escalates the fight, I would imagine me hitting a dog for biting me from aggression or fear may escalate further.

Humans do not need to hit a dog - ever.


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## Curtis (Jun 9, 2013)

I remember him kicking a dog once, but that was to break up a multi dog fight at a dog park. 

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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> My dogs have never bitten me, so I don't know what my reaction would be. Have your dogs bitten you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that's your opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. 

Your not a physical person, However I am and believe in physical corrections and being physical with your dogs.

Whether it's playing, teaching/training or correction. I'm 100% for it. 

If it's done right! You have to know boundaries. 

This Does not make me less of a person than you or anyone else because I hold my dogs to a higher standard than your typical owner.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

nikon22shooter said:


> Your saying if your dog straight up bites you, not by accident. You wouldn't physical correct your dog!? Righttttttttt.
> 
> I'd pick his butt up and throw him out of my house.


I have a FA dog who in the past has redirected on me. What purpose would it have served to kick his butt out when it is my fault I pushed him to hard? 

Before advising someone to use physical punishment, it is wise to back up and consider where the dog (and the human) is mentally.


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## wrenevere (Jan 31, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> I saw that same episode. If I remember correctly, I believe that the dog was a service dog in some capacity--military, police, SAR, drug detection... Don't remember exactly. But something had happened to the dog where he shut down completely. Also, in evaluating dog and handler, Cesar determined that the handler was actually making the situation worse. So in desensitizing the dog to loud noises, gunshots, etc., he was actually taking away the dog's anxieties about his environment and enabling him to go back to work again. Cesar also worked with the handler to make sure she no longer exacerbated the dog's issues, instead she began to connect with him, building his confidence again. The update showed a happy, confident dog enjoying his job again.


 
Oh, that makes sense, then. Cesar has an interesting ability to see the end result in the dog before it is present- I wouldn't have the heart to make the lab do that, but what he is doing really does help certain dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Looking at any correction from the handler's POV instead of the dog's POV is a mistake IMO. 

Why are you giving the correction and what do you want to achieve with it? The only way you are going to achieve your goals is by letting the behavior of the dog direct your training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> @selzer
> Ya he got away with it last night, no verbal "hey hey" nothing, I just left it with me totally ignoring it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That is certainly better than if you would have over-reacted, possibly causing the dog to go even further. It is hard to know what to do in the heat of the moment. 

You might want to manage the environment better so you don't have a cat in a cage where the dog is allowed to be, or likely to pass if at all possible. It seems like there is stress in both critters.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

This is a difficult behavior issue. Most member's here seem to be on the side of love conquer's all problems, but this is not consistent with the entire planet of dog owners. Yes, we love our dogs. This morning my Jack drew blood on the pup, she nosed him to go outside and he nailed her on the bridge of her nose and two minutes later I had a warm wash cloth on the puppy (8 weeks). Nothing can prepare you for a 5:45 AM bloody situation. I acted as calm as possible. Yes, I called the other dog to come and he did, so I took it as a mis-communication. They have played "gentle" for 12 days, then this.. Yes, she's fine. No hair loss, nothing except a scratch - I can't even find it with a 10 power loop.

There is a lot of information on this site and it's great to see that we can discuss these situations and find common ground. Cesar, is from a Country that does not let dogs in the house. He bought a GSD pup in Santa Clarita, CA (Aqua Dulce) for between $2700.00 - $5000.00 because I looked at her website and his name was on the 'client list', her dogs are choice bloodlines. $200K for a trained dog. Whoa !!

My issue is the 3% of people who can afford such a dog, a doctor or a lawyer or both, a family with small children who think the dog is CUTE. Well, their in danger.. They have the cash but not the know-how to get the dog under control without professional help. Yes., member's here know the danger's, it's not a joke. Sell your pup to an inexperienced owner and live with the fact it could be a trouble situation without proper discipline with a VERY strong willed dog..

My point is clear, if you do not direct the animal to proper behavior the dog will rule the house, bite someone or multiple people and then the dog get put down and nobody has one bit of fun.. If I had to ask, I would say be very judgmental of whom has the firmness and correctness to raise your puppies ? I hope my rant is Okay.. I feel guilty I was not able to foresee the issue I dealt with today, even having 3 GSDs for 15 years.. It happens and it ain't no darn fun !!

Give correction and then love ! :apple: :wub:


Sehrgutcsg


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Looking at any correction from the handler's POV instead of the dog's POV is a mistake IMO.
> 
> Why are you giving the correction and what do you want to achieve with it? The only way you are going to achieve your goals is by letting the behavior of the dog direct your training.



All I'm comparing is Cesar using a quick hit to break the dogs behavior to a shock collar.

I am not saying this is my training method or that I don't think about how it will affect my dog. 

Just comparing a quick hit to a shock to stop a negative behavior.


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## nikon22shooter (Dec 5, 2013)

Well said seh


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Dogs flinch when struck by hands
That is not misinformation
That's observations


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> Dogs flinch when struck by hands
> That is not misinformation
> That's observations


Sometimes they do. 

Some dogs flinch because they have weenie nerves. Actually, a dog with solid nerves should be able to handle even a correction dished out by the human hand without flinching every time he sees one coming. 

Dogs with weenie nerves flinch and embarrass their owners, who get really tired of hearing how someone must have abused him or her. Nope, she's just a weenie.


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## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> This is a difficult behavior issue. Most member's here seem to be on the side of love conquer's all problems, but this is not consistent with the entire planet of dog owners. Yes, we love our dogs. This morning my Jack drew blood on the pup, she nosed him to go outside and he nailed her on the bridge of her nose and two minutes later I had a warm wash cloth on the puppy (8 weeks). Nothing can prepare you for a 5:45 AM bloody situation. I acted as calm as possible. Yes, I called the other dog to come and he did, so I took it as a mis-communication. They have played "gentle" for 12 days, then this.. Yes, she's fine. No hair loss, nothing except a scratch - I can't even find it with a 10 power loop.
> 
> There is a lot of information on this site and it's great to see that we can discuss these situations and find common ground. Cesar, is from a Country that does not let dogs in the house. He bought a GSD pup in Santa Clarita, CA (Aqua Dulce) for between $2700.00 - $5000.00 because I looked at her website and his name was on the 'client list', her dogs are choice bloodlines. $200K for a trained dog. Whoa !!
> 
> ...



We'll said I agree.


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## wrenevere (Jan 31, 2014)

Just a thought-- Is it not "humanizing" to assume that the dogs will "take it to heart" when physically corrected? I have never had a dog that was corrected (Stern "No", "Hey", leash correction, etc.) "take it personally" and dislike the person who corrected them.

I've noticed dogs react to unstable emotions, like anger and frustration. If someone lashes out at a dog for no reason, the dogs do seem to notice the unstableness, and will respond accordingly.

I have always felt like dogs understand humans much more than people give them credit for - body language is key. Oftentimes I don't think it's about the physicality of it so much as it is the tone: "Hey, I'm serious, quit it." as opposed to "Be nice! Be nice!"

I feel like it is just as much humanizing the dog when people say "it's wrong to use physical corrections because it is mean" as it is when people say "it's wrong to allow a dog to misbehave in an unacceptable manner".

Both perspectives are in the human point of view- a dog doesn't have a physical correction and think "Wow, that human is so mean!" likewise, they doesn't know that biting, jumping, etc. are "misbehaving", they just know that their owners (the people who bring them everything good in the world) seem displeased when they display those behaviors.

Therefore, I believe both methods have their benefits, and it ultimately boils down to what the owner believes is the "right" way to handle it, and how the dog reacts to either method.

(Sorry again for the mini-essay, I've thought a lot about this topic!)


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> same opinion, you don't have to hit a dog to get him NOT to do things





selzer said:


> I don't think I would hit a dog for biting. I don't see how that would work. For puppies we teach them to be gentle. For older dogs, I suppose, you would have to teach them not to bite, or to be gentle. But I think a physical correction could go way wrong.


Please watch this video 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15QnSF_tZ8 notice at ~ 4:00 to 5:00 and tell me what you think.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sehrgutcsg said:


> This is a difficult behavior issue. Most member's here seem to be on the side of love conquer's all problems, but this is not consistent with the entire planet of dog owners. Yes, we love our dogs. *This morning my Jack drew blood on the pup, she nosed him to go outside and he nailed her on the bridge of her nose and two minutes later I had a warm wash cloth on the puppy (8 weeks). Nothing can prepare you for a 5:45 AM bloody situation. I acted as calm as possible. Yes, I called the other dog to come and he did, so I took it as a mis-communication. They have played "gentle" for 12 days, then this.. Yes, she's fine. No hair loss, nothing except a scratch - I can't even find it with a 10 power loop*.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Ok, so you have had an 8 week old puppy for two weeks, playing with your JRT, I take it an adult dog. And the adult dog nailed the puppy, bloody bite this morning? Are you saying that you have treated your JRT with love instead of correcting him and that is why he bit your puppy? 

I'm confused actually. 

You called him and he came, so it was a miscommunication?

When an adult dog draws blood on an eight week old puppy, there is something wrong with the adult dog. Sorry. I would not trust this dog with this pup, not until the pup is much older and beyond the main socialization stages. 

I am not sure what this has to do with physical corrections or Cesar, or how expensive the dog was that Cesar bought, or who people are letting their puppies go to. Are you saying that someone shouldn't have sold you a puppy? You've had three other GSDs, most breeders like to see people with experience in the breed.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

nikon22shooter said:


> One day you go to lay down your dogs food and he snaps at your hand drawing blood....what's your reaction?
> 
> One day you have a new baby and you introduce your dog to the baby and everything goes fine. Then one day you see your dog growl at the baby.....what's your reaction?
> 
> ...


Resource guarding = counter conditioning not physical punishment which will make the situation worse.

Never correct a growl - unless you like a dog who goes from seemingly 0 to bite - a growl is the most overt "early warning system" you have

I've been bitten, badly, by a foster dog. I did not correct. I didn't even yell. If you're physically punishing a dog for biting you are reacting versus learning how to proactively prevent.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

alexg said:


> Please watch this video
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15QnSF_tZ8 notice at ~ 4:00 to 5:00 and tell me what you think.


I would, flash player crashed, couldn't load it. It's Michael Ellis. I guess he broke the camera.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

you refrain from hitting a dog
not because it is "mean"
but because it is not the proper 
way to interact with a dog
selzer some dogs flinch for no reason
but ive met more than a few 
that flinch due to their owners smacking them


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

My hand corrections are variable 

Also an e collar "correction" is quite a bit higher than working level stims. If you aren't getting a scream you're not doing it right.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Harry and Lola said:


> Doesn't Cesar given a physical correction where he gently pokes the dog in certain areas much like another dog would? I have not seen him punch a dog.
> 
> Dogs do not need to be hit, any dog, but especially highly intelligent dogs such as GSDs, if you are clear and consistent with your commands, then they will know what you want - you don't have to hit him to get him to do what you want. If they are not, then you are doing something wrong - he is getting confused by by you.
> 
> If you are getting frustrated with your dog, far better to leave for a while so that you don't react in anger and work with him when feeling calmer.





misslesleedavis1 said:


> Ive never seen him punch a dog. I dont ever see him get emotional either, he comes off as happy go lucky with his clients but when he works with a dog he does not get emotionally involved, I would think you would have to be pretty upset to full out punch your dog.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App"


Correct he does not"punch dogs" I have "never' heard of that intepation of Cesar's wrok given??

Hence the warning about..don't try this at home!

The OP should seek a professional for help for both himself and his dog! Other that...the light in tunnel is an on coming train!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Correct he does not"punch dogs" I have "never' heard of that intepation of Cesar's wrok given??

Huh?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> My hand corrections are variable
> 
> Also an e collar "correction" is quite a bit higher than working level stims. If you aren't getting a scream you're not doing it right.


Some dogs are more vocal or stoic than others. A dog doesn't need to scream as evidence of an effective correction with a e-collar. I can see there being a drastic difference in vocalization if the dog is already being vocal, but from zero to scream is going to be different with different dogs and situations.

Some mals chirp with every stim, some GSDs won't scream unless you use more than one collar. I think vocalization is a bad yardstick.


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## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Correct he does not"punch dogs" I have "never' heard of that intepation of Cesar's wrok given??
> 
> Hence the warning about..don't try this at home!
> 
> The OP should seek a professional for help for both himself and his dog! Other that...the light in tunnel is an on coming train!



Like I said before I didn't literally mean punch 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I was half joking. I would want them to look punished and not repeat whatever caused it in the first place. Don't want to run out of dog too early.

Also I like how some of you guys missed Michael Ellis talking about correcting dogs by kicking punching and breaking sticks over their heads.


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## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I was half joking. I would want them to look punished and not repeat whatever caused it in the first place. Don't want to run out of dog too early.
> 
> Also I like how some of you guys missed Michael Ellis talking about correcting dogs by kicking punching and breaking sticks over their heads.



That video doesn't even start 


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ok, so you have had an 8 week old puppy for two weeks, playing with your JRT, I take it an adult dog. And the adult dog nailed the puppy, bloody bite this morning? Are you saying that you have treated your JRT with love instead of correcting him and that is why he bit your puppy?
> 
> I'm confused actually.
> 
> ...


Selzer,

A lot of people come on here and make excuses. Not me. I screwed up. I will never be respected here - if I sugar coat this situation. I have videos of the dogs, Nelson was on his back playing and jumping over the pup (Bella).. I can only email them, not able to post..

The dogs will be separated for quite some time, it was unexpected, I carry the guilt, period and the responsibility...

I appreciate your concerns..

csg


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

great dogs, i don't know. what's their mental state?
you don't have to yank and crank, hit dogs, kick dogs,
pop collars, step on feet, etc for them to learn.
training is all about repetition. i don't think flooding 
is necessary.


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## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

doggiedad said:


> great dogs, i don't know. what's their mental state?
> you don't have to yank and crank, hit dogs, kick dogs,
> pop collars, step on feet, etc for them to learn.
> training is all about repetition. i don't think flooding
> is necessary.



Yes great


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

sehrgutcsg said:


> This is a difficult behavior issue. Most member's here seem to be on the side of love conquer's all problems, but this is not consistent with the entire planet of dog owners. Yes, we love our dogs. This morning my Jack drew blood on the pup, she nosed him to go outside and he nailed her on the bridge of her nose and two minutes later I had a warm wash cloth on the puppy (8 weeks). Nothing can prepare you for a 5:45 AM bloody situation. I acted as calm as possible. Yes, I called the other dog to come and he did, so I took it as a mis-communication. They have played "gentle" for 12 days, then this.. Yes, she's fine. No hair loss, nothing except a scratch - I can't even find it with a 10 power loop.
> 
> There is a lot of information on this site and it's great to see that we can discuss these situations and find common ground. Cesar, is from a Country that does not let dogs in the house. He bought a GSD pup in Santa Clarita, CA (Aqua Dulce) for between $2700.00 - $5000.00 because I looked at her website and his name was on the 'client list', her dogs are choice bloodlines. $200K for a trained dog. Whoa !!
> 
> ...


This whole post left me scratching my head....huh?


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## sigh (Feb 12, 2014)

Smh


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Punch a dog, I have never seen him punch a dog flat out with a closed fist
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah me either, he will tap them with his foot in there rear or poke them with his fingers.

I do believe that some are interpreting the finger jab as a punch??? " A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing as they say!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Strypher said:


> Like I said before I didn't literally mean punch
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's the internet, say what you mean not what you meant! Otherwise you get people doing stuff like this! 

2punch verb
: to hit (someone or something) hard with your fist

2poke verb
: to push your finger or something thin or pointed into or at someone or something


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## Strypher (Feb 3, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> It's the internet, say what you mean not what you meant! Otherwise you get people doing stuff like this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea Someone told me that . That is why I mention I didn't literally mean punch then again I had to mention it


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> VERY different. a shock collar the dog thinks the correction is coming from the environment. the dog thinks its something that it did to cause the shock.
> 
> you putting your hands on a dog means the dog knows the correction is coming from no where but you.


Nope "any tool can be abused" case in point:

* 4yr GSD snapping at my partner. Need immediate help!*
I need some advice:

Recently, my 4yr old GSD (Sampson) and my partner (we'll call him Ax) have been at odds with each other. In general, things are good. However, last night Sampson snapped at him (not the first time unfortunately, but it *has* to be the last). Ax put his arm around Sampson (over body), and Sampson did not like it at all... Ax really took it hard; he's terrified, and now has problems approaching Sampson over it. 

I need advice.

I think what might have happened is Ax has been using and threatening Sampson with a shock-collar. I'm not a fan of shock-collars, but outside of a first few shocks, I was under the impression it's been purely a intimidation method. However, I fear this may have created wedge between them, particularly on Sampson's part.

Unfortunately, because I don't use the collar (I'm the one always taking _off_ the collar), Ax feels I'm not concerned for his safety... That can't be any farther from the truth! :/

Ax is new to dogs. We just moved in together about a month ago. He's never had pets before, let along a 100lb GSD. This is all new territory for him. I need help helping him.

How can I get things back in order between them? What can I do to show Ax I understand his concerns, but there isn't anything I can do punish a dog outside mere minutes of the incident (or am I wrong?? Please! Correct me if I'm wrong here!). I don't think Ax understands the ADHD of dogs.

Thanks. Please, help!

PS: Outside of these incidents, Sampson is 100% chipper, hyper, all lovey-dovey around Ax. Sampson DOES very visible cower at the sight of the shock-collar and remote; Ax has used it as intimidation when Sampson gets a little too pushy in our space.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Strypher said:


> Yea Someone told me that . That is why I mention I didn't literally mean punch then again I had to mention it
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Cool, sorry I must have missed your correction, my bad!:blush:


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