# Who doesn't vaccinate?



## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

I came across this and was kind of shocked, am I understanding it correctly that he is saying not to give your dog any shots?

http://leerburg.com/vaccinosis.htm


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

He's not saying to never give the dog any vaccines, but rather to not follow the age old tradition of yearly "boosters", no matter what vets say. They are not only unnecessary, but overvaccination can lead to a host of other health problems. The initial puppy series of vaccines last for years, and in some cases for the life of the dog. Other vaccines, such as Corona, are pretty much completely useless for dogs of any age, yet some people still give them and stress out their dog's immune system in doing so.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Renji is only getting rabies vax from now on. When we got him as a rescue at around 8-12 months of age, he had his first round of shots (that we know of), at around two years of age he had a 5-way (would have preferred distemper/parvo only but this was all the vet had) and rabies a couple weeks later to reduce the chance of reaction, and that's that- no more vaccines except for rabies until he's old enough to get medically excluded from all vaccines period. 

I do not agree with no vaccines at all, but I think doing the puppy shots then a one year booster plus the rabies shots as required by law is fine. I agree that over-vaccination is a big problem.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I only give the puppy shots, and may do a booster a year from the last puppy shot. I also do not let my puppies get a rabies shot at 4 months. Most vets want to give the last "puppy shot" and the first rabies shot at the same time. But I "just say NO". Siren got her rabies shot at 7 months.

I can't remember the last time my older dogs got "regular" shots. But it has been a LONG time. (They are 9 and 10yo.)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We do the puppy shots, booster at a year and booster at 4 years. Then that's it. We're considering skipping the 4yo booster with future dogs. And rabies every 3 years as required by law. We also make sure to spread out the shots and not give rabies near the same time they get others.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I don't give vaccines past the puppy stuff. Grimm I think had ONE set adult boosters perhaps, but nothing more. 

Rabies? Yes of course, it's the law... but I get the longest interval rabies vaccine allowable by law.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildHe's not saying to never give the dog any vaccines,...


He DOES however say that "they" NEVER give ANY vaccinations even to puppies.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I do the normal pup shots, rabies as required at 4 months. Then at the 1 year mark, they get a 3 yr rabies. My older dogs are on 3 yr rabies and I typically will do their annual shots on a 3 yr basis now instead of yearly. (never same year as the rabies)

Vishnu had extreme issues with allergies and immune issues and I just feel more comfortable not vaccinating all the time.

Here by law you have to give vaccines to puppies for health certificates which are required to be given to any puppy buyer.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I no longer vaccinate. I don't know what I would do if I had a pup with a clean slate.


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## emsoskar (Oct 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildWe do the puppy shots, booster at a year and booster at 4 years. Then that's it. We're considering skipping the 4yo booster with future dogs. And rabies every 3 years as required by law. We also make sure to spread out the shots and not give rabies near the same time they get others.


Chris, you seem to be quite educated on many things gsd, lol, so I figured you would be a good person to ask questions.... mind if I pick your brain??
I have been doing the yearly thing for all 3 of my dogs. I didn't know until now that it might not be the best thing. Crap!







I've been doing what my vet recommends, which is yearly, plus bortadella every 6 mos (this I only do because we board sometimes when we go out of town, and they require it) We just went out of town the other day and boarded at the vets. Jake was due for his rabies and boosters, so they gave it all to him at once!! 
I'm guessing from your vaccination routines that you think it's better not to do it every year. (well, obviously...) Can you explain to me the reason? Most vets make you feel like your dog is going to get an awful illness and die if they aren't given shots every year! I appreciate any info....life is a learning process!
Also, sorry if this has been asked and answered elsewhere----


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Most vets make you feel like your dog is going to get an awful illness and die if they aren't given shots every year!


I'm not Chris, hope you don't mind me chiming in. Those vets aren't updated on the latest research. A research paper came out stating that rabies should safely be given every 5 years and now they are stating it should even be every seven or longer. Right now the largest gap we see legally is three years. A lot of vets think Science Diet is the best food out there, but the food has enough grains in it to be adequate for an herbivore, not a carnivore which is what a dog is. There are vets out there who are up on the latest research and will work with their clients rather than hold to their own hard and fast rules. 

Another thing to think about, many people will not bring dogs in for annual checkups if they don't have to give shots. I do believe some vets push for annuals to make sure the dogs come in to get their checkups. And then there is money, unfortunately. For some clinics, money drives many decisions.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think vets push for everything just to get their $$$ and very few vets have dog's best interest in mind. Or cat's. Last year a vet (don't go there anymore) suggested that my cat had to have all of his teeth removed because they were bad and the charge for teeth removal was $$ per minute, so the bill would be $1000 +. My cat will be 16 years old and is healthy otherwise so I refused.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Chama's last rabies vaccination was 6 years ago. She has a note from the saying it is dangerous for her health to get rabies shots (because of her age) and it also lists her last titer results. This is acceptable for crossing the border into Canada. She has not had any other vaccinations for 7 years. 

I will not vaccinate Rafi again for anything unless his titer shows he is not adequately protected for rabies. I do not run titers on anything but rabies.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

After my mom’s dog had a sever reaction to vaccines I did a lot of research on dog vaccines. As a result we’ve scaled back and only do the rabies every 3 years now. Prior to that we use to do the annual vaccines.


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## Emily (Nov 8, 2008)

I prefer to only give two rounds of puppy shots and then have titers checked at 1 or 2 years of age to see if they need a booster. I would never give an extra vaccination unless the titers come back unprotective (I've never had that happen). 

I also wait as long as possible to give the first rabies, around 6-8 months usually. And then we have to give it every three years here as well. It would be great if that would change!

I do know of a lot of people who raise raw, no-vac puppies. It does scare me a tad to not at least have the puppy shots though.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Its about time, people take over responsibility, learn to make decisions themselves by getting informed, gain back their power and no longer give in to the medical establishment and their bullies.

Given that vaccines are a multi-billion dollar industry, I guess the manufactures will not be very happy, that people start to question them- lets see with how many wonder-vaccines for "new" animal diseases they will come up with within the next decade to compensate for the loss.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I asked my vet about the three year rabies, but unfortunately Ala. requires yearly rabies by state law--my vet said they were hoping they would change it to three years and were helping to get this passed, but it never makes the floor.

Parvo/etc is done on 3-5 year cycles.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: emsoskar
> Most vets make you feel like your dog is going to get an awful illness and die if they aren't given shots every year!


If your vet is doing that, it might be time for a new vet. YOU are the dogs owner, it is up to YOU what the dog does and does NOT get. And if they can't respect your wishes, I'm sure there is another one that will.


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## Julie'somom (Jun 13, 2004)

I too am a firm believer on giiving DHLP shots every three to four years. My nine and a half year old 7lb poodle ate a Dermaxx pill meant for my GSD (Don't ask) today.. I rushed her to the vet. Since we could not get her to vomit the pill they placed her on IV fluids and she will be there until Friday. This is not the vet I always use. I got to thinking that she has not had a "shot" in probably five years. She is now at the vet's with out protection (?) maybe? against all those nasty dieases. I haver not given her a shot except for rabies b/c she had a reaction to the shot. Now what have I done in leaving her there??? I wopuldn't think giving her one now would do any good at all. any comment??? She never goes anywhere so that is why I never woriied about the lack of shots.
julies'omom


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree maybe time for a new vet)

I stopped vac'ing my dogs about 6 years ago, by law I do however, have to give rabies every 3 years, when I do,,it's a thimerisol free vac, and so far with the three I have who all have their own little bag of health issues,,they've had no negative reactions to it.

My 8mth old, did get her round of puppy shots, that we JUST finished,,that included lyme,rabies & lepto,,my vet spaces everything out atleast a month 1/2...

I titer the adults, and so far, only Jynx my aussie was a little low on distemper,,so again, we did a thimerisol free vac but only 1/2 a doseage..

With masi (the youngster) I will most likely do a yearly booster when it's time,,the rabies, (they will be thimerisol free) and then I will titer after that..

I also do bordatella on the dogs I travel with,,once a year..

So I guess I am not totally vac free, but very minimal..My cats have never had vac's,,they are all inside..

diane


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The routine annual vacs were tossed out about 9 or 10 years ago. I printed out the then new protocols from Colorado Vet School at Ft. Collins and took them in to my vet. End of discussion. When I moved here I found vets that were amenable - and the vets here aren't taking it upon themselves to enforce the annual rabies requirement either. I did one round of titers about a year ago. All good.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Dante had puppy shots, 1 year boosters and now gets Rabies as required by law (3 years here) and bordatella once a year because where I board him requires it.
Distemper and Parvo I titer yearly for the boarding kennel - Otherwise I'd probably titer every 3 years


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I do the same as most everyone else. I vaccinate puppies for distemper and parvo only, usually just two boosters, then again at 1 year old, then never again. Rabies I do as according to law, but don't give the first rabies vaccine until 6 months old.

Most of the training places by me will allow you to sign a waiver for the kennel cough vaccine, as it is much like the flu shots...so many different strains, the chances are good that even with the vaccine they can still get it anyway.


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## JulieAG (Nov 9, 2008)

I work for a vet and she pushes the annual vaccinations big time. She will usually booster everything (rabies, distemper/parvo combo, lyme, and sometimes the bordetella) in one visit. She told me that puppies need 3 boosters of the distemper combo - with or without lepto, 3-4 weeks apart starting at 6 weeks old. But I'm a tad confused, because lately, I've looked at a few clients medical charts and they have been scheduled to come back for a 4th distemper booster/exam. Are you really supposed to give 4 shots in the puppy serious?? Or does she not realize... or is ignoring, the fact that they already had the first shot through the breeder before going to their new owner and coming into our office? 

With my own, I'll just do one more distemper booster a year from his last one, a 3 year rabies and will most likely titer for distemper from there on out... or do them at least 3 years apart.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Julie'somom.... I got to thinking that she has not had a "shot" in probably five years. She is now at the vet's with out protection (?) maybe? against all those nasty dieases. I haver not given her a shot except for rabies b/c she had a reaction to the shot. Now what have I done in leaving her there??? I wopuldn't think giving her one now would do any good at all. any comment??? She never goes anywhere so that is why I never woriied about the lack of shots.
> julies'omom


Are you saying that she has only had one vaccine in her entire life, to rabies? Never for parvo or distemper, or just not since she was a pup?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Humm3rJI work for a vet and she pushes the annual vaccinations big time. She will usually booster everything (rabies, distemper/parvo combo, lyme, and sometimes the bordetella) in one visit. She told me that puppies need 3 boosters of the distemper combo - with or without lepto, 3-4 weeks apart starting at 6 weeks old. But I'm a tad confused, because lately, I've looked at a few clients medical charts and they have been scheduled to come back for a 4th distemper booster/exam. Are you really supposed to give 4 shots in the puppy serious?? Or does she not realize... or is ignoring, the fact that they already had the first shot through the breeder before going to their new owner and coming into our office?


Well the thing is, if they start at 6 weeks, and get one every 3 weeks until 16 weeks, that is 4 shots. Most folks believe the last "puppy shot" needs to be at 16 weeks. With my pup, she got her first one at 8 weeks from the breeder, then I took her to my vet every 4 weeks so she only needed 3 total to get past the 16 week age. I also happen to have a vet that LISTENS to me. On her first visit there they wrote in her chart that she had one at 8 weeks.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I don't vaccinate my dogs. I have older dogs who have had minimal vaccines and pups who have never been vaccinated, but show good titers. My boy with lymphoma is the only one who received all his "puppy" shots. The rest of the older dogs only had a 1 or two as pups and few if any boosters after that. I have one female who came with a puppy shot and only had a rabies vaccine when she went back to Europe for training and never had a problem "catching" anything. 

Dogs live probably 1/7 the amount of time we do and we don't get that many vaccines. It makes no sense to me in the research I have done. My boy with lymphoma cannot receive anymore vaccines (he is exempt from rabies). We did a titer for rabies "after" he finished his chemo last year and his titer after over 3 years came back high over 1:100 where the recommended level of protection by the CBC is 1:5.

Vaccines are a big profit margin for vets and also a CYA. It is up to every owner to do the research and make responsible decisions for themselves.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_Dogs live probably 1/7 the amount of time we do and we don't get that many vaccines._

Unless you are a child









Children have received *48 doses of 14 vaccines by age six*. With the addition of annual flu shots for all infants and children,they've then received *69 doses of 16 vaccines by age 18*. 
_Crazy!!_


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## emsoskar (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks to those who jumped in with some info. Much appreciated! 

I think one reason the vets in my area are so adament about vaccinating is because there are so many "country bumpkins" who have like 20 dogs and cats running around their houses and they never bother to have them vetted. I think it is very much the mindset in this area that animals are just that and are meant to live outside and not to be worried with. Right now, there are 3 pups at my vets office dying from parvo because the owners never bothered to care for them. (they were telling me about it when i poicked up my dogs monday afternoon, so sad!!) He said it frustrates him because people want to run to have him save their dying pet, yet they don't bother to properly care for it to avoid these things happening! It's awful!


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

Some dogs don't respond to vaccines. Also sometimes the vaccines knock out or suppress the immune system, leaving the pups unable to fight off the virus. Also if you are not careful and get help for a pup right away, they don't have alot of reserves to survive if they get dehydrated form vomitting and diarrhea. Another factor is sometimes vets or shelters vaccinate dogs that are not "healthy" and wonder why they get sick.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

I haven't done anything other that law-required rabies vax in 7 or 8 years. Neither of my dogs had/had ever had a Bordetella vax and were kenneled fine.

I never used to do flea/tick prevention either. Only started this year because that ticks were so bad.

I only use heartworm meds when we have to travel an area that is high risk for them (hasn't happened since 2001).


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

The vets do tend to follow the books they learned from, the same ones published by big pharma. Newer protocols are saner. I too, followed the vet's advice, and then lost one @ 4.5 yrs., 6 weeks after boosters. 

Then I learned of the controversy, and about vaccinosis, found another vet who I could work with. Hard way to learn that lesson, but current 
pets are safer, and healthier because of it.

What we do to children these days is simply as insane, and we wonder why there is so many problems with autism, attention deficit disorders, etc. 

We are our own worst enemies.


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## Miller Time (Jan 15, 2009)

Are many of you having luck finding a vet that will perform wellness checkups without also doing a full battery of shots? 

I've always been in the camp of not vaccinating yearly, and my pets have always been free of disease. Many years ago I worked with a major local vet clinic for a time, and they always pushed and even required yearly vaccinations. They would not allow us to admit animals that were not current unless the owner agreed to also allow the vaccinations - emergency situations excluded of course. After spending some time working in the administration there, I learned many of their "dark secrets" - mainly the high profit margin of vaccinations. 

I do not want to skip regular wellness exams - heart, eyes, ears, hips, etc.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I hate hearing stories of the profit side of vaccination. I WANT TO BELIEVE that vets are doing what they think is in the best interst of the dog and that each is doing the best they can, that they are just misinformed and a bit brainwashed by the medical culture. Stories like yours makes mine hard to believe in!

I had a really tough time finding such a vet. That was years ago though (8 or 9), and I can tell from the boards, that things are slowly changing. The vet that we work with now understands me and my dogs, but the clinic is increasingly trying to do stuff to make a profit, and I'm sure that many other folks that go where I go have severly overvaccinated pets.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

P.S. Welcome to the board Miller Time!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also agree on not giving boosters after all the puppy stuff, and even with the puppy stuff i stretch it out so they don't get more than one at a time. to many vets are willing to do them all at once, and unfortunately alot of people don't know the difference, or the possible complications/issues this could cause.

i hate the Rabies, and it stinks that its the law! i do the first full rabies and titer after that. under no circumsatnces do i give any of my older dogs any boosters even Rabies. i believe its more harmful as they age, especially if they have issues.

i am a responsible dog owner, and keep my dogs at home, they are not running around loose etc. yes, there is a chance something rabid could bit them etc, but, again, i am always with them, so the chances are not high. to me the benifits out weigh the risks.

debbie


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Miller TimeAre many of you having luck finding a vet that will perform wellness checkups without also doing a full battery of shots?


I actually drive 5.5 hours to visit a holistic vet that does not push vaccinations and unnecessary meds. Every time I take my dogs into my local vet here, they ask me "So, we're getting shots today?" I am terrified that they will try to vaccinate the dogs without asking me.

The thing that really irritates me is the kennel club that I am a member of here requires your dogs to have the FULL SET of all vaccinations EVERY YEAR to bring your dog into the clubhouse








. You would think a kennel club would be up to speed with the research on the benefits of minimal/no vaccination.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I agree on the kennel clubs. Some of the therapy dogs are in a similar bind.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_Are many of you having luck finding a vet that will perform wellness checkups without also doing a full battery of shots? _

I'm very fortunate to have 2 vets in my area that are "educated" on vaccines, one of them doesn't vaccinate herself, the other doesn't push it.
Your best bet to find such a vet is to look for one that also offers some sort of alternative treatment like acupuncture, chiro or homeopathy.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Miller TimeAre many of you having luck finding a vet that will perform wellness checkups without also doing a full battery of shots?


Nope. Never had a problem. Not only do we refuse to vaccinate yearly, but we also do our own vaccinations. Never have the vet do them (except Rabies... must be done by a vet to comply with state law). Our vets have always been fine with this.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

My vet never says anything. The only time they give shots is when I ASK for them. (Which is only if I have a puppy that needs them.) 

Wrangler was just there a few weeks ago and there was nothing mentioned about shots. He hasn't had regular shots for YEARS.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

I only give the 3 year required rabies. I have given lepto if I was heavy into forest preserve tracking but not doing that at the moment.


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

My dog was vaccinated twice by breeder before 8 weeks old. I did one more round of 5 way vaccine at around 13 weeks and rabies at 6 months. I will only vaccinate for rabies in future pending results of blood titers which quantitatively measure presence of antibodies against known antigens. Here is a link to minimal vaccination and info on were to send blood samples for titers:

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

Also google vaccinosis for info on problems related to overvaccination.

Glenn


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Quote:
> The thing that really irritates me is the kennel club that I am a member of here requires your dogs to have the FULL SET of all vaccinations EVERY YEAR to bring your dog into the clubhouse
> 
> 
> ...


 This is from my kennel club and I am going in feb w/ only rabies shots current, I am bringing my vet records but I wonder if they will catch that it has been over a year? It doesn't say how often, just that there is proof...

_VACCINATIONS Proof of vaccinations DA2PP (plus Rabies for all dogs 4 months old or older) must be provided before your dog can be
admitted to a training class. You can mail a non-returnable copy of the vaccination report to KKC along with your registration. Or, you
can show a copy of the vaccination report at registration evening. Visiting dogs must have proof of vaccinations._


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I remember when I trained, there were times when the folks processing where never careful about checking. When we were doing agility, I don't think that they checked, after the initial sign-up.


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: dOgThe vets do tend to follow the books they learned from, the same ones published by big pharma. Newer protocols are saner. I too, followed the vet's advice, and then lost one @ 4.5 yrs., 6 weeks after boosters.
> 
> Then I learned of the controversy, and about vaccinosis, found another vet who I could work with. Hard way to learn that lesson, but current
> pets are safer, and healthier because of it.


I, too, learned the hard way. I used to be naive enough to think that you could trust your vet. They said that dogs need annual boosters, so that's what I did. I believed that it was in their best interest and that it was the responsible thing to do. 

After losing two dogs to immune systems gone haywire, I started doing my homework and I can tell you, finding out that you most likely killed your dogs is not an easy thing to live with.

Gunner was already 5 years old when I learned this, so all I can do is hope that there hasn't been too much damage done from getting boosters every year. When he was "due for his booster" this past summer, I had titers done instead. The only one he showed low immunity to was Lepto, so I vaccinated for that only. (We have a pretty incredible raccoon population around here, so that's the one disease that I really do worry about.) 
From here on out, I'll vaccinate for rabies, only because it's still required by law and I'll probably have titers done annually, though I've heard conflicting opinions about their accuracy.

With Riley, fortunately, he's only had his one-year booster. I'll follow the same plan for him - probably have titers done annually and vaccinate for rabies and possibly Lepto only.

My current vet didn't hassle me at all. Our first visit there was for Gunner's annual check-up and I just explained to him, in no uncertain terms that I had lost two dogs to over-vaccination, was not going to lose another one and told him that if that was a problem for him, we'd move on.







Thankfully, he understood and is willing to work with me.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i was read the riot act by one vet when i took my senior in for another issue. he was more concerned with the fact that he needed his vaccinations. i stood there and looked him in the eye, and told him this dog was getting NO MORE vaccinations, and listed the main reasons why. which were he's older, he's been in contact with Lyme disease, he has Pannus, etc. that would be all we need to do is put gasoline on a bonfire!!!!! i was VERY direct in telling him this, and then i walked out!

furthermore, No unhealthy dog, or pet with issues should recieve ANY vaccinations.............

debbie


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good job debbie! Sometimes that is not an easy thing to do.like GunnersMom, I too learned the hard way. 

I just can't believe some of these vets. Uh, first do no harm???? <<walking away, shaking my head...>>


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if only more people would take the time to educate themselves on these issues, there is a wealth of information out there. its just rediculous to think your vet is a god. they are human, they are trying to make a living, on and on, and on.

actually i have a friend who has two gsd's. this one exapmle is why people need to be up to date and educated.

this friend's 1 3/4 year old male gsd came down suddenly with rashes all over his body, red irritated ears etc. she took him to the vet, the ver tested for mange (of all things) it wasn't Mange, and then he blammed it on the food. well she has been feeding the same food to this dog since it was a pup, and he never had any problems. i asked her just for sh*ts and giggles if he had had any vaccinations lately. she said ah yeah, about a month ago. i asked her what or how many, she said both R & D. i'm thinking OMG. he's definitely having a reaction to the vaccinations and two at once to boot, thats the first place vaccine reactions will show. grrrrrrrrrrr!
i told her to call the vet tell him she thinks its Vaccinosis, etc. i also gave her some tips to work with the dogs immune system to try and cmbat this issue. she felt bad, but, she did not realize, as many don't how harmful this can be. chances are the dog is probably going to have chronic skin issues because his system was SO over stimulated,,,,,,,,,,,,,and these types of things happne every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!
debbie


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Wow. 

I think there is even a name for that type of a reaction after rabies in particular. 

I can't tell you how many vets I talked to when Indy was sick, with documented timeline, etc. And they all thought I was a loon, and told me those things don't happen and it was just impossible. You can imagine how relieved, in a weird way, when Cornell said she had immune complex disease induced by her vaccine, and the head of the serology lab called out here to CA and spent quite a bit of time talking with my vet. 

So I guess that's my round about way of saying your friend may not get very far with the vet. Things have changed, but not that much really. Years later, this same vet mentioned above kept trying to get me to vaccinate indy again for rabies. It's one of the reasons I had to leave him.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its just crazy!!!!!!!!!! i can only hope my friend will get proactive and believe in some of the info i give her. yep, probably even if she contacted him he would be like your vet. i guess on the whole most vets just do the proticol stuff and are in denial about the possible complications, and issues from vaccines, meds, etc.
it stinks!
ps. Lisa, if your vet thinks your a loon, my vet must think i'm a double loon! lol!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LOL, we should form a club









Here's some stuff on rabies in particular:

http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/vacreact.html

http://www.oes.org/page2/18588~RABIES_VACCINE--Skin_Reactions.html

These vets carry a lot of power, including over our thought processes much of the time, and they tell us things that require us to suspend our beliefs - it can be very frustrating!


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

We should form a club. My dogs get no more vaccinations after a year old, except rabies, when required by law. I did a few bordetella (sp) vaccinations, but I figure as much as they go to classes and shows...

Before I started this show stuff, I never did any of this stuff to my dogs. Never used HW meds, never used flea preventative, just a good bath often, brushing and maybe some powder or lavender oil. The dog lived outside, was exercised daily. He was just kept healthy w/o all of these chemicals. 

I try to keep it down to rabies and ivomec. Any vet who has a problem can easily be replaced; the gift of life in an urban setting.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

If we form a club, it will need a catchy name. I'm never good at that word stuff.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

well, i am sure there are alot of people here who feel the same way we do. 

how about calling the club "the sisters of proactive pet health" AKA "the looney tunes"









debbie


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Ok, I'm going to be in this boat the 26th of Jan. on the yearly vet visits & shots. Our rescue we have had 1 yr now & at the shelter he was given shots & a 1 yr rabies. I feel I should get his 3 yr rabies & now reading this tell him NO on the others.

Our other boy Storm is 2 now & has all his puppy shots (seemed like alot of shots during the puppy stage with all 3 of our dogs). He has since had yearly booster & 3 yr rabies. Same with our soon to be 5 yr old Sable, all shots yearly !

I'm so up in the air about not doing ANY yearly shot b/c I'm scared of them getting something. Not sure what all dogs can get & what or if any shot prevents it 100% ?

Dogs are outside on our property (wooded, deer poo, etc) more than anything, go many places, parks, pet stores, etc with us & just don't want them picking something up all b/c I didn't get their shots.

I have always had the vet do what was needed at our yearly vet visit & I do know, 2 shots were gave at once before.

Just not sure which route to go ???? Our 9 yr old Golden we just lost, never missed a yearly vet visit or shot.

Thanks for any info on my up in the air issue here.
















What reason why your not to do yearly, more cancer, skin problems, etc ?????

~Thanks~


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: debbieb..... AKA "the looney tunes"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, whose who???


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSsOk, I'm going to be in this boat the 26th of Jan. on the yearly vet visits & shots. Our rescue we have had 1 yr now & at the shelter he was given shots & a 1 yr rabies. I feel I should get his 3 yr rabies & now reading this tell him NO on the others.
> 
> Our other boy Storm is 2 now & has all his puppy shots (seemed like alot of shots during the puppy stage with all 3 of our dogs). He has since had yearly booster & 3 yr rabies. Same with our soon to be 5 yr old Sable, all shots yearly !
> 
> ...


This is tough, particularly when it's the first time you've gone to the vet with these issues, and you are the one bringing it up, not him/her. Your vet might be completely receptive (more common now than before), or they may be offended and try to scare you about all the diseases that your dog will catch if you do not vaccinate. Hard to say which vet you will run into, until you have that discussion. The tough part will be how you react if you get the vet that tells you all sorts of scary things. I caved the first time (a decade ago), and my dog paid the price for it.

A compromise, which may make both of you feel better, is to run titers. If they are protective, then your dog already has circulating antibodies and there is no need to revax. If the titers are low, that doesn't mean that the dog is not protected (as memory cells can ramp up the antibodies in time of need), but if it's the 1st year booster, then you may feel more comfortable getting that booster. Sometimes, I havetold the vet, that I know that he disagreed with me, but I was willing to pay the extra for my peace of mind, even if it was unnecessary, and that sometimes stops any argument. For example, if you want to get the rabies and come back later for the others, that's an extra expense that you are willing to bear for your own peace of mind, whether or not he thinks it is medically necessary.

The science is on the side of extended time between vaccinations. The only ones that don't last a long time are the bacterial ones -- bordatella, lepto, lyme. Lyme shot is not that effective and can have disasterous lifelong side effects. Lepto seems to have more immediate side effects -- many vets don't give it anymore, many still do. Bordatella you can combat with good care.

I live in deer, skunk, raccoon, rabbit, bat country, and I haven't vaccinated Indy since 1999, my GSD probably since late 2002. They do get issues from the rabbit and deer and cat poo -- I have to use panacur occasionally for those.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

The vets here push the lyme shot HEAVILY. Lyme disease is a huge problem here, but I've decided not to vaccinate and to just test the dogs annually. Two of my girls have tested positive but have never shown any symptoms. They were treated with a course of antibiotics just to be on the safe side.
Now, every time I'd take a dog in (which is NOT often, maybe twice a year) I get harassed about giving the dogs lyme vaccines. I tell the vets that I will not vaccinate them after they've tested positive, and two different vets have asked why...so I tell them all I've read about how you never want to give a lyme shot to a dog that's tested positive because it can cause so many problems. and the vets actually got upset and told me that the opposite was true and proceeded to tell me how important giving them the shot was. I didn't back down, but it made going there uncomfortable for me.

My parents also use the same vet for their dogs. Since both parents work during the day I offered to take their older newfoundland in because she had nasty eye discharge. The vet checked her chart - told me she was "way overdue" for her shots and asked if I wanted to have her vaccinated. I said no thanks...maybe next time when she's healthy, and asked how overdue she was. TWO WEEKS they told me.

I recently found a new vet who does not push the issue of shots. I've only brought my 3 year old, Kessy, in to see her so far. She absolutely loves Kessy, and gushes over how "this is what a real shepherd should be" and how she's glad there are still people out there keeping the true GSD alive. I guess she sees a lot of nervebags









Anyway, I am happier with the new vet, at least so far. I liked my old vet, but the constant badgering about vaccinations made it very awkward for me.

I used to vaccinate my dogs according to the vet's advice (also was living in Germany and the shots were required to return to the USA), but now that I know better I will only do distemper/parvo as puppies and rabies as required by law. With my last puppy, I did each shot on a different day, each at least 2 weeks apart, which was suggested by his breeder - yes, more costly, but in the long run a couple of extra office visits don't add up to all that much. I will probably titer in a few years and decide which shots to repeat, but every year there's so much new information out there...I can't predict that far ahead yet


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

There is a school of thought that the lyme vaccine should be given to dogs with lyme to help them fight the disease. Those vets SCARE ME.

If two weeks is "way overdue", then I'm "way behind" on so many things on my "to do" list!!! Good thing you took your folks' dog in -- you saved her from getting vaccinated when she was sick, and didn't need the vaccines anyway!

I"m glad that you found a vet that you like better and is open to modified vaccine schedules -- I sure do hope that she works out for all your dogs!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i wanna be Roadrunner please!









its really sad when you almost cringe trying to decide what you should do about vaccinating. i do think alot of this pushing vaccinations is a big part of the vets income, that insures people will come in for yearlys. its pretty short sighted, because most concious people are gonna come in anyway, for the heartworm test and an overall checkup. people have to stop being intimidated by these vets. if something doesn't feel right its best to move on. there are some out there that don't get defensive when an owner makes a stand as to what they want and don't want!

debbie


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

Our vet doesn't push the cats if they are indoor and will treat them if they need to be treated BUT if my cats got sick and I had to go to another vet they DO push that I need them vaccinated first. My one cat had the crystals in his urinary tract and I took him to a so unnamed vet they told me since he was still peeing (blood mind you) to take him home and watch him but they could only treat him after 100.00 of vaccinations...LIKE hello this cat was BLOCKED. The next day my vet was open and I called because he was in so much pain they whisked him in and they even set up the weekend for the vet techs to come in and take care of him...so I didn't have to send him away to the ER clinic. I couldn't thank them enough.

As for my dogs, they have always been vaccinated but when they got to an age where they were so old my vet said let's not vaccinate because he was so immuned by that time, example Brandy was like 15y and he always seemed like he was on his last leg (lived 3 more years) but she said just bring him in for his annual that is all and keep up the rabies, she said that if we boarded him she would write up he was OK. 

Per my contract with both my rescues though my dogs have to be vaccinated and now they have the 3 yr DPT shot at my vets so they don't need it every year.

This is an interesting topic to read.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i definitely don't vaccinate any of my house cats. they have the kitten round and thats it. i think any vet who pushes that has definitely got  only $$$$$$$ in mind. what are the chances a bat is going to fly in the house and bit the cat, even distemper is pretty nil. my vet said the only thing he would be concerned about for a cat is they are susceptable to upper respirtory infections, etc. the vaccinations are even harder on cats. you notice when they get vaccinated especially with the distemper they don't want to eat and just sleep for days. that tells me alot right there!

its a dammed if ya do and dammed if ya don't decision, and a decision only you can make based on the circumstances.

i have heard so many stories from people about vaccinations etc. one couple i know took their 14 year old dog into the vets it had some kidney issues. it was also due for all its shots they were also giving Lyme (yikes) well they didn't know any better, so they let them do it, the next day the dog died.....well, daaaaah! the vet had sent the bloodwork out for the kidney issue and never even waited to see the results before he stuck this poor dog with like 4 different kinds of vaccinations. i was horrified when these people told me. its a case where the people were trusting their vet to do the right things, and the dog ended up dieing. Sick!

debbie


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Yes, a very scary decision to make here. Not sure my vet will push the shot issue, but will see. Any info where I can show him that shots aren't good yearly (sorry, not good at finding that kind of stuff) ?

If we choose NOT to give shots, can dogs get something that can kill them from not giving the shots ? Do want them protected.

I do use Iverhart Max 1 a month yr around for them. I only use the Frontline Plus 1 or 2 times a yr now. Just thought the HW med would be a good wormer with the wildlife poo they eat around here. Not sure if you can see all worms in poo ??

We have had our dogs some yrs now, but always trusted our vet & just do what is needed. Now reading/hearing different info on shots & such, want to learn & know or understand what's nessersary & not ! Finding yearly shots probably aren't.









What all shots do dogs normally get after the puppy stage ?

All I remember is them giving 2 shots & now since rabies is every 3 yrs, it's the 1 & called DHLP or something like that. Is that all adults get throughout their life other then the shot given to board, which we never have done, don't board.

Is the DHLP (order) 1 shot covering many things then ? It is this shot people are NOT doing & just keeping up on the rabies by law ?

Anyone that don't do rabies either ?? If so, not sure how you get around that by law ? Would think that's risky.

Teiter (sp?), not sure what this is (blood test maybe), if our vet does, how to know what is too high or too low, ect !!! Scary to do when you know the vets going to understand this more than you & maybe push the shot thing judged on what he/she sees & you don't know right from wrong.

I know I need to get up on all of this & get educated asap for the dogs sake. 

I have always been 1 with our boys (human) & dogs to leave it in the vet/doctors hands when it came to shots, give what's needed ! Thought shots were very important for both human/animals.

Thanks for helping me/us try to understand this & start to do right here. The 26th is coming, have vetted here for 15 yrs. & never have refused a shot.










~Thanks~


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

no you cannot see all worms in poop via the naked eye. although usually the once a month wormer takes care of your basic worms in the case your dogs eat other poops etc. Giradias have to be tested for seperately. tapeworms are also hard to see in poop, unless you see the little rice segments break off by the butt area.

look up Vaccinosis, there is all kinds of info out on the complications with vaccinating.

i give the first rabies vac and then just titer there after, if the antibodies are low i might give another one, but absolutely no vaccinations after the age of 6. 
and as i said before absolutely NO vaccinations for any animal with health issues. this is my opinion based on all the research and my own experiences.

debbie


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

The only vax my older guys get is Rabies, except for Tazer the Cocker.

Tazer will not receive any more shots - rabies included - because of his epilepsy and his age.

Winnie continues to get Rabies even (though I consider her a senior) because she has a bite history.

Mauser has had two combo shots - and that's all he'll get. I will titer him for Distemper and Parvo when he's about 6 - 8 months old and then decide if he needs anything else. I am going to wait as long as I can before he gets his Rabies (I'd like to go a full year - we'll see).

I do not use any heartworm medications but I do test the dogs yearly.

I worm the dogs when I see signs of worms (and I'm not just talking about in the stool).

My vet sends out reminders for all the vax and HW stuff but I just toss it in the garbage. They know my dogs, know how I raise them and what I feed and are fine with that.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

I don't worry about the law. I probably should. If they catch my dogs loose then I will be forced to give the rabies vaccine. But for now, I don't need proof of it to get a dog license or go to the local club. 

So far Chase has not had it since he was a year old. He's too thin and it looks like he's battling worms again. He has a problem and no matter what I do he can't seem to get rid of it. Panacur won't get it. So no rabies vaccine until we get rid of these worms and gain some weight. 

Isn't there something about vaccinated dogs passing antibodies to other dogs, or being around other vaccinated dogs giving unvaccinated dogs a type of immunity?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

first i am with Lauri with young pups. Sam is 9 months old and i have been waiting for rabies until he is a year old also. he had a serious worm issue which i am hoping we have under control now, and he was very thin. i am also not going to nueter him until after a year, i am kind of letting him get healthy, etc, before putting him out and doing the vaccination.

and ya know what, i really don't care about the law either, if i felt my dogs were going to be better off for whatever reason without the vaccination, rabies, whatever, the state law wouldn't stop me. my dogs don't run around loose, i am a responsible dog owner. i haven't really had any issues with having dogs that bite, and hopefully won't.

also, you better believe some dogs can pass antibodies of vaccinations, i think its from live virus ones. the reason i know this is because it happened to me with the kennel cough. before my pup was even around any other dogs at class i had the kennel shot done, 2 days later my oldest gsd Toby came down with it. i emailed my vet and asked him if the kennel cough was a live virus vaccine and that my oldest dog is now having symptoms, and could it be passed, he said it could....its like well geeeeeeee maybe he could have told me that, he knew i had other dogs in the house.









debbie


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

Vets are starting to sound border line corrupt to me. If we were talking about humans questioning popular accepted views by doctors we would be considered immature to think we knew better than a doctor with a 7-8 year degree based on our interget google fun....it seems most people have the same views about people who questions a Vets opinion , therefore they can get a way with just about anything they like, convince people saw dust is better than that dangerous meat stuff, dogs can't live with out yearly drugs, it is all very frustrating to me.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_Isn't there something about vaccinated dogs passing antibodies to other dogs, or being around other vaccinated dogs giving unvaccinated dogs a type of immunity? _

Freshly vaccinated dogs, yes, shed the vaccine viurs for several weeks post vaccination. Mainly with MLV vaccines tough. Some people I know- including my previous vet- also claimed their 100% unvaccinated dogs got a rabies titer naturally, but it didn't work for my dog and I tried for several years.
I don't care about the law either, but since I'm not willing to send my dog's head off in case of an incident, I had to vax for rabies atleast once.


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

Can I be Daffy, please?












> Originally Posted By: LuvourGSsYes, a very scary decision to make here. Not sure my vet will push the shot issue, but will see. Any info where I can show him that shots aren't good yearly (sorry, not good at finding that kind of stuff) ?
> 
> Teiter (sp?), not sure what this is (blood test maybe), if our vet does, how to know what is too high or too low, ect !!! Scary to do when you know the vets going to understand this more than you & maybe push the shot thing judged on what he/she sees & you don't know right from wrong.


You should be able to find some good information if you google Dr. Jean Dodd. From what I understand, she's pretty much the authority on this. There's also a book out called "Stop the Shots." I haven't read it myself, but a friend just finished it and said it's very informative.

Yes, titers are just run by a simple blood test. They're not cheap. I don't remember exactly what our bill came to when I had them run for Gunner, but I know it was over $200. It took about three days for my vet to get the results back from the lab.

And yeah, ultimately your vet is the one reading the results, but you can always request copies of any and all lab results for a second opinion, so I would think a vet would have to be pretty ballsy to "misinterpret" the results so they could push a vaccine that wasn't needed. I mean, I'm sure it happens, but I have to think that most vets wouldn't go so far as to flat-out lie about test results when there's proof in black and white.

Just make sure that your vet doesn't read the results backwards like mine did. LOL. He called me with the results, started reading it and said that Gunner was showing virtually NO immunity to anything. He laughed, said that he knew that couldn't be right, called the lab to see if he was reading the test results incorrectly and sure enough, he was. He said the results are printed in a way that's almost counterintuitive and if you're not familiar with them, you can read them backwards. 
They have exactly ONE other patient who requests titers and they've been done by another vet there, so it was my guy's first time reading the lab results. But hey, at least he admitted that he was unsure of it and checked with the lab! LOL.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: debbieb..... AKA "the looney tunes"
> ...


I want to be the Roadrunner! Beep, Beep no vaccinations for Ruth's 4 legged crew!









And I don't get titers for anything but rabies. Titers are expensive and unnecessary in my not very humble opinion. Plus they're not that reliable, supposedly. 

And honestly, having lived with a dog who had severe vaccinosis because of yearly vaccines (before I adopted him) I can say that you are exposing your dogs to *far more* danger by vaccinating them yearly than by not vaccinating them yearly.


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

So once more, I just got a flyer in the mail saying it's time for my pup to come in for a booster shot...he has had 5 total shots already and is 6 months old...does he need it?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Exactly what vaccines has he already had, and at what ages?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebno you cannot see all worms in poop via the naked eye. although usually the once a month wormer takes care of your basic worms in the case your dogs eat other poops etc. Giradias have to be tested for seperately. tapeworms are also hard to see in poop, unless you see the little rice segments break off by the butt area.
> 
> look up Vaccinosis, there is all kinds of info out on the complications with vaccinating.
> 
> ...


No more rabies after that ? Boy, rabies is 1 I would want to keep up on just b/c IF your dog did nip/bite @ someone. I know Petsmart wants this done in order to groom & will call vet & ask if updated vac. was given. Just feel safer on at least giving this vac. & I wouldn't feel would be bad if only given every 3 yrs.

Teiter, any online site or link someone can share ? I know nothing about teiter tests or how you would read. Will ask the vet if they even have that kind of testing.

Does the HW pill knock out alot of worms ? Knock on wood..........haven't had a worm issue, just the puppy stage.

Does anyone if not doing yearly vac. still see their vet yearly for a check up ?

Debbieb, you saying NO shot even a rabies after age 6 ? Why is this ?

Thanks


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, i am saying no rabies shots for my dogs after the age of 6. Why? because they are starting to age and with aging the immune system doesn't work as well as it would a younger healthier dog. i just don't think any of them are necessary. just like a childs boosters they have them once and they are done, its the same thing.
alls anyone has to do is research this stuff on your own, the risks involved with vaccinating. its all out there.

it is risky not doing rabies shots because of liabilities, and certainly if your dog is a biter or a potential biter it would be something that you would have to do. although any of our dogs have the potential to bite in the right situation.............. 

the sad part is there is no conclusive evidence that if your dog were to get bitten by a rabid animal that the rabies vaccination would even be good.

debbie


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks Debbieb.................









Still need to find some info on titer reading









Does anyone that don't vac. keep their dogs on HW pills monthly ?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I don't vax, but do HW monthly. I use Interceptor at 1/5 the regular dose (called the Safeheart dose), and at that dose it is only effective against HW. I am in a high heartworm/aggressive mosquito area. It's all about reading the science and determining what risks your particular animals are in.

Here's some info on titering:

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/titer_test.htm
http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Titers.htm


I believe that Ohio is a 3 year rabies state. Many vets in 3 year rabies states still vaccinate for rabies annually. I consider that malpractice. It may be determined by your local county, so you need to know your local laws.

It is important to have that rabies at least once. Then your dog has protection, and in the future is considered not up to date on vaccination, rather than unvaccinated. That is an important legal distinction.

There are lots of stories about what will happen to your dog if it bites someone. Everything that my vet told me about this situation, by the way, was completely wrong. He said all sorts of scary things. Typically, at worst, there is a quarantine, max I've heard is 6 weeks. It my need to be at the animal control, but often can be done in the home. This happened to my trainer, and I think it was a 3 week quarantine, and they will vaccinate the dog.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, i agree you need the first full rabies vac, as well as the other vac's when they are puppies. this is more about over-vaccinating, or the need not to after the first year because of the possible complications that can effect millions of pets.

debbie


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Chama has not had a rabies vaccine for 5 years now. Basu had his last one when he was 5 (he had an allergic reaction to it). When I titered him at age 8 his levels were off the charts. 

My cat has not had a rabies vaccination for 8 or 9 years. Just to for the heck of it I titered her last year. Her numbers were higher than Basu's. It really was shocking because she had only been vaccinated for rabies probably 3 times in her life.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I would love to titer Indy for rabies to see what her levels are -- she hasn't had rabies since 1998. BUT, if they are low, I don't want anyone getting any ideas......


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## GunnersMom (Jan 25, 2008)

I don't know if the rabies law in Ohio varies by county. It might.
I'm in Cuyahoga and here it's the 3-year protocol.

Yes, my boys still get their annual exam, the HW antigen test and are on monthly HW prevention. (We use Interceptor.)


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

This is the 2006 guideline (there were some minor revisions in a 2007 pdf but this happens to the version I have bookmarked)
http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/VaccineGuidelines06Revised.pdf
You can just print out the relevant tables & ask your vet to discuss why he would NOT follow these guidelines which are recognised by most American Vet Med Teaching Hospitals (sorry can't recall the percentage).
Jean Dodd has a website as well.


"Traditionally" vaccines were given in the belief that they would protect the host animal even before said animal had time to respond immunologically (as if the 'good' version of the virus etc in the vaccine that was already established in the host blood system were able to out compete the incoming 'bad' viruses that were the disease). This is a hard belief system to give up - plus many vets have very little knowledge of the immune system so if the vaccine manufacturer states that their vaccine protects the animal 2-3 days post-injection (a true statement if <u>any</u> immune activation has occurred; of course, practically speaking, ~2weeks post-vaccination is required before there are sufficient numbers of antibody producing cells for an actual successful immune challenge response) many will believe that.

I suspect that almost all vets have watched helplessly as pups, kittens etc have died from distemper, parvo etc (these are well documented & recognised disease states); not many have observed & recognised vaccinosis related deaths, so it's easy to guess which side of the vaccine controversy they'll lean towards.
So while I don't agree, I do understand why so many vets would rather vaccinate first. 

It's not so different from the WHO's mandate with Hepatitus vaccines - over 20years ago, it was predicted that Hepatitus would be pandemic (HIV barely made it onto the maps) so despite all the issues that had already occurred with Hep Vaccines, they were not going to slow down the charge to get this program into place.


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