# Insecurity + Fear + Arousal = ???



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Good Morning Everyone!

I am new to these boards, and for my first post I would like to ask a question about my dog's behavior. 

First off he is a neutered male of 1 year, and 7 months. He came from a really bad breeder, and I believe genetically he has really week nerves. I got him at 2 months. I socialized him alot to everything, everyone, smells, pavements, sounds, animals blah blah blah. When he was a pup I have met a fake trainer that told me really bad advice.. at the time I didn't know it was bad, but I followed it. Which has pretty much a ruined my dog even more. I then looked up some on dog training and I started to work only in positive reinforcement. Which pretty much helped my dog ALOT. He has been really leash reactive for a long time now, and is getting really worse off leash after being attacked by 7 stray dogs in a public park. We have worked alot on conter conditioning everything, but unfortunatly for us there are weeks that he seems alot better. Where he doesn't react that much. Then we might go to a park, and something happens, and he gets stressed again. He can't get over stress easily, and his fearfulness, reactivity gets worst like the following hours, days.

Well sorry for the long info.. now lets get back to what I was wanting to ask..

I am trying to understand my dog signals, and behavior to see if there is something I have to worry even more about... When he see other dogs in a offleash situation, he imediatly stand still.. with his hackles up, chest foward, mouth closed, eyes looking straight forward, tail half way making slight stiff movements. At this time he doesn't use calming signals.. Then or he moves towards the dog, slowing his pace, going straight forward, the only calming signal I see at this time usually is his slow pace. 

So after this things either go one way or another .. or 1. He goes straight forward to the dog becoming highly aroused, running into the other dog, shoving his butt in the dog's chest in a wildly manner. At this time he is eyes are wide open, mouths open tounge out, ridge around his lips, and he becomes out of it. He acts like he is in another world. Dogs usually send him calming signals, and he doesn't listen to them. If the other dog doesn't play he starts become a bully.. barking, nipping (no skin broken), backing up, going into the other's dogs face, backing up again, sometimes he will sniff the rear, and then nip. 

or 2. The other dog goes straight fowards to him chasing him around in circles, sometimes the other dog might bark or nip. Til he gets to the point where both slow down, and both will send calming signals to each other. Nothing else usually happens because he drops to the floor.

He has been in situations where one trainer had flooded him, and he seems like he has panic attacks. To the point where he becomes so exausted that he avoids everything, and stay away from other dogs. 

I feel like he is starting to get worse off leash than on leash. 

Wow I wrote alot!! 

What do you guys think? Is this something I need to worry about? I need advice! Thanks


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

No expert here , but the one thing I would stop doing is taking him to a park and letting him run amuck with other dogs.

If he's a stressful dog, this is stressing him more, it sounds like he just doesn't know how to interact with other dogs (at the park).

Do you have any friends with dogs that he gets along with ? doesn't bully, pick on, or is bullied by? That's who I'd be hanging out with offleash, .


----------



## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Your dog has weak nerves, so corrections and flooding can be very counter productive and more damaging. It's better to start as less stressful as possible. If possible, take him to a positive trainer where you can do desensitizing exercises, and with calm friendly dogs. What your dog needs is to feel that other dogs are not threats, and you need to take things slowly for that. When your dog can gradually approach some dogs (calm dogs that are sit still), and then interact with them slowly (sniffs, and so on) without the other dogs reacting negatively, he can gradually gain confidence. If he is the avoiding type, allow him to have some choice to approach the other dog by his own initiative.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When are people going to stop taking GS to public parks and letting them run loose??????? Agrwwwwwwwww!
To the poster, your dog in public should be on leash or in an isolated place, if off leash engaged in games with you. At the first sign of another animal dog goes on leash. This isn't a fluffy breed that should be running all over the park having fun with other dogs.....sorry. Weak nerved dogs often become prey or fear aggressive....strong nerved dogs are often too much....there are no rules for a dog to know when encountering a dog from outside it's pack(family). 
I know many misintentioned people want their dog to do what the labs and goldens do, but most owners are not experienced enough to safely let their GS run in open park with other dogs.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I think you should listen to what HE ^^^^^^ said.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear I wrote your post.

Here's my recent thread about an almost identical situation.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/189521-opinions-about-behavior-video.html

Read all of it, it'll clearly address your situation.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> When are people going to stop taking GS to public parks and letting them run loose??????? Agrwwwwwwwww!
> To the poster, your dog in public should be on leash or in an isolated place, if off leash engaged in games with you. At the first sign of another animal dog goes on leash. This isn't a fluffy breed that should be running all over the park having fun with other dogs.....sorry. Weak nerved dogs often become prey or fear aggressive....strong nerved dogs are often too much....there are no rules for a dog to know when encountering a dog from outside it's pack(family).
> I know many misintentioned people want their dog to do what the labs and goldens do, but most owners are not experienced enough to safely let their GS run in open park with other dogs.


This is good advice...I feel I have enough experience with dogs period and I have not brought my GSD to the dog park. I see how she plays and I don't feel it would accepted by most other dogs and/or owners. I consider mine to be strong nerved and she would never bully another dog that was fearful, but play can become a fight really quick. My golden is an okay candidate for the dog park, but I've been very careful with that since he was attacked there. He also has solid nerves and is used all the time as the stable dog in class with other dogs that are fearful.


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Geeze Cliff when I mean park I mean dog park (the country where I live it isn't called dog park). Calm down no need to get upset. I hate see offleash dogs at parks too.. having offleash dogs around is what ruin all my work that I do with my dog AND IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!

Jakoda, sheep good ideas I am going to find him some doggie friends and have really controlled play sessions (which is really hard to do.. not alot of people I know have dogs). I am going to see if I can find some positive dog trainer and see how it goes. Plus I am going to stay away from dog parks and any areas where I might encounter off leash dogs. Yesterday he has been attacked by one dog at one of the dog parks we go to, and today he is at rest. I am going to try to get that cortisol back down. This morning we did only relaxing exercises like relaxation protocol on mat work, some nose work that is really calming for him, and some mental stimulation game puzzles that he has. Let see hows it goes this following week. I am happy that all of you are saying he has week nerves. I allways thought he did but never was really confirmed. 

Anthony! Yeah that looks kinda like mine, but mine does more rapid movements, the pant is the same. The weird thing his that when we are inside the house my dog doesn't react to anything. If a neighbore dog comes barking he doesn't bark. He never become protective of the house. Sleeps all day, doesn't do anything to bother us.


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

llombardo I know what you mean. I can't really take it anymore. I don't want to go to the dog park ever again. I hate seeing owners ignoring there dogs chating to each other, talking on the cell phone, while dogs are picking fights. Terrible it is so stressful for me and my dog. I hate when I go to the park, and I work on heelwork or our freestyle tricks (on a long line or or offleash only when he is playing/working with me)then someone's offleash un controllable dog comes running up causing problems! It is just plain crazy. No one has respect anymore for others. gurrrrrrrr


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> I think you should listen to what HE ^^^^^^ said.
> 
> If I didn't know better, I'd swear I wrote your post.
> 
> ...


Anythony I forgot to say! I will read your post, and let you know!


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

prockerb said:


> First off he is a neutered male of 1 year, and 7 months. He came from a really bad breeder, and I believe genetically he has really week nerves. I got him at 2 months. I socialized him alot to everything, everyone, smells, pavements, sounds, animals blah blah blah. When he was a pup I have met a fake trainer that told me really bad advice.. at the time I didn't know it was bad, but I followed it. Which has pretty much a ruined my dog even more. I then looked up some on dog training and I started to work only in positive reinforcement. Which pretty much helped my dog ALOT. He has been really leash reactive for a long time now, and is getting really worse off leash after being attacked by 7 stray dogs in a public park. We have worked alot on conter conditioning everything, but unfortunatly for us there are weeks that he seems alot better. Where he doesn't react that much. Then we might go to a park, and something happens, and he gets stressed again. He can't get over stress easily, and his fearfulness, reactivity gets worst like the following hours, days.
> 
> The hormones are still high, and remain high for 2-3 days after an event. His threshold will be much lower during this time and you will more likely see another event. It turns into a vicious cycle for these dogs.
> 
> ...


This dog does not belong in a dog park, and probably will never be a candidate for dog parks. Personally I dislike them even for my Lab. Woolf, like your dog, can not be in dog parks.

If there are 1 or 2 extremely calm dogs in your circle he could be social with, that may work if under close supervision. Be ready to lead him away at the first sign of tension. 

I would get a behaviorist involved if this was my dog. One that knows GSD very well. If you will post where you are located, someone may be able to give recommendations of a good one in the area. BTW, a good one is worth some drive time.

Meanwhile look at these following links. With Woolf, the most progress was and is being made using the BAT method. I did a modified form the relaxation protocol just to help Woolf become more relaxed in new quiet places.

BAT Ahimsa Dog Blog

Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA

Look at That! A Counterintuitive Approach to Dealing with Reactive Dogs Dog Training for Dog Lovers Blog

Champion of My Heart Relaxation Protocol MP3 Files

Protocol for relaxation


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Please don't take offense to the tone of some of the other members. These are educated, dedicated dog owners, and they contribute their knowledge to this place. They just want to drive their point across. 
Put yourself out their with an open mind, and sit back and see what your can learn from them.
Take my word, they recognize the signs that we easily overlook.

I'm not one of those educated, professionals, but also came here to learn. I've taken my "lumps" over the past year, and it took a long time for me to adapt to my environment with my dog. Dog parks are very tempting. You see all these happy dogs having so much fun, and you envision your dog playing like a child in a playground.
Like you, I have a hard time avoiding those who don't care about your dog in a park setting. I could be minding my business, walking my dog on leash, and the next thing I know, I'm being approached by an off leash dog with bad intentions. 
My dog was attacked (for better words) on more than one occasion. I feel that she has genetic week nerves, dogs pick up on this, and she attracts this unwanted attention. 
It took me a long time to come to grips with this. Nobody wants to hear that your dog is weak. 

Go read some of my prior threads. I posted a lot about insecurity, weak nerves, and at one point, I even thought she finally snapped out of it, and pushed away the "bad dog". Wrong interpretation. 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Found a really good article about this subject.

01 Afraid of Other Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Hi guys! Well yesterday I got in contact with a positive dog traininer, and now I am waiting for them to contact me. Yeah I got to prevent him from having any other traumatic situations. Thanks for the links guys they are amazing! I never had tried BAT yet, I allways did counter conditioning, LAT, and protocol for relaxation but not BAT. I will have to read that. You know I was reading the link Anthony you gave me, and it is so right! I remember right after puberty everything started to go down hill! Man I wish I can go back in time to fix things. I have noticed another thing with my dog, that he gets really stressed in new enviroments, and doesn't know how to cope. I have been teaching him a default relaxed down that does help, because at first he would allways been going in circles around me not able to stop moving just for the stress just being in a new place. Even if I have taken him everywhere durring his socialization period he seems like a under socialized dog. I have also heard that one of his brothers ended up with kennel syndrome (I repeat the breeder is extremely bad, lots of bad stories I have found out afterwards). I will be taking him to a behaviorist. I am going to see how things go with this trainer first and see how it goes.

Anthony your right I am a easily irritable person. I need to calm down and relax... do some yoga or something.


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

prockerb said:


> Hi guys! Well yesterday I got in contact with a positive dog traininer, and now I am waiting for them to contact me. Yeah I got to prevent him from having any other traumatic situations. Thanks for the links guys they are amazing! I never had tried BAT yet, I allways did counter conditioning, LAT, and protocol for relaxation but not BAT. I will have to read that. You know I was reading the link Anthony you gave me, and it is so right! I remember right after puberty everything started to go down hill! Man I wish I can go back in time to fix things. I have noticed another thing with my dog, that he gets really stressed in new enviroments, and doesn't know how to cope. I have been teaching him a default relaxed down that does help, because at first he would allways been going in circles around me not able to stop moving just for the stress just being in a new place. Even if I have taken him everywhere durring his socialization period he seems like a under socialized dog. I have also heard that one of his brothers ended up with kennel syndrome (I repeat the breeder is extremely bad, lots of bad stories I have found out afterwards). I will be taking him to a behaviorist. I am going to see how things go with this trainer first and see how it goes.
> 
> Anthony your right I am a easily irritable person. I need to calm down and relax... do some yoga or something.


Haha... Nah, I'm sure it's just part of the frustration you're experiencing. 

Just a few more thoughts....

My pup was pinned at about 4 months. She hasn't been the same since. However, after LOADS of socializing, and playdates, she's still leery of new surroundings, and anything that could pose a "perceived" threat. After dealing with this for many months, I've finally accepted that much has to do with genetics, as much as its experiences. 

There's only so much you'll be able to change.


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Anthony one last question.. what have you been doing to help your dog's fears? Have you found a trainer or something?


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

prockerb said:


> Anthony one last question.. what have you been doing to help your dog's fears? Have you found a trainer or something?


Honestly.... Nothing.

When she was pinned as a pup, the only thing I concentrated on, was socialization with dogs. I had a concern about her becoming overly fearful towards dogs, and ultimately becoming aggressive.
I set up one on one playdates with pups and dogs of similar temperament.

It took me a long time to accept that it's genetic, and there isn't much I could do.
A recent incident was the final straw for me, and I've since made a firm decision to keep her out of harm's way.
In recent days, I've upped her obedience training, and only let her run where there's no chance of an encounter.

I feel that's really all I could do at this point. 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Oh man I know how you feel. It took me a long time to realise it to, and it took me a while to get over the problem. I cried alot over this situation because I allways loved to do Agility, and Free Style. Of course I did tried Agility, and I do some free style tricks for fun. But I know it isn't for him.. for the fact he stresses too easily. He loved Agility so much (and was fast as a bullet), but the fact that in the dog training faculty there where too many stressors I pretty much gaved it up. I dreamed to do so much with him. I have been doing everything possible and yes I do have better results, but then there are times it seems like we are back to square one. *sigh* What is important that they can be as happy as possible. 

Thanks again


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Twyla thanks for Dr. Overall's relaxation protocol link. 

I rarely come on this board anymore and I do not really know why. 

I have a new 5 month old pup who is a bit shy and was happy to see the protocol here, I could not find my copy. 

Prockerb, I am certainly no expert although I have had GSD's for almost 25 years. I have had a few nery dogs too, my 5 month old 5 is a little weak nerved but not that bad. My job is to keep her safe, under threshhold and able to continue to work. 

She is slow to warm up to people and a little fearful of other dogs. I am not so concerned about other dogs as I can control that for the most part, altho we will work on that til the days she dies which is hopefully along way off!  

People expect a dog to not bark at them when they approach and we have worked with hand targeting to help her approach people. She is doing very well. 

I compete in obedience and agility with my dogs so need a reliable dog, so for the dog stuff we find people with friendly dogs that we know and set up some off leash play while watching for sign of stress. If your dog is stressed you are making it worse. Keep sessions very short. 

For the park, be watchful and when you see off leash dogs just turn around and move away. I do not let my dogs run off leash in a pack of unknown dogs. Dog Parks are a fight looking for a place to happen. 

One last word - CALM. You be CALM. If you are stressing and irritable the dog will sense it and will not be able to behave calmly either.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

prockerb said:


> Oh man I know how you feel. It took me a long time to realise it to, and it took me a while to get over the problem. I cried alot over this situation because I allways loved to do Agility, and Free Style. Of course I did tried Agility, and I do some free style tricks for fun. But I know it isn't for him.. for the fact he stresses too easily. He loved Agility so much (and was fast as a bullet), but the fact that in the dog training faculty there where too many stressors I pretty much gaved it up. I dreamed to do so much with him. I have been doing everything possible and yes I do have better results, but then there are times it seems like we are back to square one. *sigh* What is important that they can be as happy as possible.
> 
> Thanks again


Honestly the dog doesnt sound too bad (you never really know from an internet post) but whats coming across to me is you. I get the impression your more stressed about everything thats going on with your dog then he probably is. Your stress and frustration can play a huge role in his reactions to various stimuli. 
Flooding if done right can be quite effective, as long as you do it in a calm and consistent manner. Its all about the trainer.. I would find someone to work with the dog who has a track record of success.
Good Luck.


----------



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Hey Guys! Yeah on the internet it is not really easy to show what actually happens to him when he gets into a "bad situation", but believe me I had what is consider one of the best trainers in the country I live telling me that he is a nervous wreck. Yeah lots of it comes from me not be capable to know everything, but listening to everyone's advice, and point of views we are starting to see a little diffrence which for me is alot. 

Kayos Twla's relaxation protocol link is really good, and I love the free mp3s wohhhoooooo. I love free stuff ! The fact your starting to work with your little one now at 5 months is a good start! How come do you believe your pup is weaked nerved, what do you think has caused it?


----------

