# My dog blocks stairways, doorways, etc and won't move when told! Advice please!



## Germanshepherdlova

My dog has taken to laying across doorways and will not move when told. Today he stood at the top of the staircase, right in the middle blocking and when I told him to move, he would not. Then I took my leg and tried to push him over and he pushed back at my leg and tried his darnest not to let me walk past him. He does the same with doorways-you have to step over him he will not move out of the way. Sigh, this dog is really a trial. He seems to be doing these doorway blocks more and more frequently recently. 

With the dominance issues we have had with him ever since he was a puppy, many issues that he has made great progress with, I fear that this is more of his dominance issues surfacing. My lab always moves out of the way when I tell him to. He never attempts to block me or push me-nor have any other dogs I have had in my life behaved this way. Not sure what is going through his head when he does this.

One more thing, today he laid on my slipper and when I told him to move, he refused. I had to pry my slipper out from under him and he laid there and stared at me very pleased with himself. Why do you suppose he does this? Any advice on how I should handle this will be greatly appreciated.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Step over him - problem solved. I personally wouldn't read a lot into it, but that's just me. Keefer moves immediately if I say "move" or if I'm opening a cabinet door into him. Halo doesn't, I have to either walk into her to make her get up and move, or push the door against her until she moves out of the way, so a lot of the time I just step over her because it's easier and faster.


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## Lucy Dog

Does he growl at all when you try to move him? Anything like that?

Could he possibly be in pain? Sometimes when dogs have arthritis or are in pain, that makes them not want to get up and move. Is he always laying down when he doesn't want to move?


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## onyx'girl

He wants to be a rug! 
jk

My dogs lay where ever they want, and I step over them all the time. If I tell them to move, they do. 

If you 'fear' this is a dominance issue then grab his collar or neck scruff and tell him "lets go" or something to get his butt up. Praise him when he does.


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## Germanshepherdlova

No, he's not in pain. He won't move out of the way if he is standing, sitting, laying. He doesn't growl at me if I force him to move, but he does growl at other people if they do. I have been stepping over him but I don't want him to recess and become extremely problematic again, if this is a dominance issue surfacing then I'd like to work on it now. However, if this is normal for GSD's then I don't want to make an issue out of it either. The problem is that when he blocks the middle of the staircase and I try to step over him I have nearly fell down the stairs twice trying to get past him.

My DH thinks Brutus' pushy and stubborn behavior is funny-but I take it much more seriously. Maybe I am just reading too much into it-I hope so anyhow.


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## msvette2u

It's not just the blocking doors, I'm sure. It sounds like a chronic problem and there's probably other issues you're not picking up on, or have accepted?
I'd agree to get it under control - especially if he's growling at other people when doing this.


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## Lucy Dog

What would he do if you grabbed his collar or scruff like jane mentioned? Is he like dead weight and won't budge?

And no, this is not normal behavior for a GSD or any dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Guys, this is a dog that has been alpha rolled to deal with his dominance. 

I am going to suggest something different. I get the same thing as someone else who goes boot camp. I just get a lot more happy wiggle butt from the dog than the other way. 

With me, I would make it a game. He still learns the same thing - get up when I want you to - but we just make it fun. That should lead to faster, stronger obedience when...

With other people, I would turn it into an obedience lesson. 

For the game part, I'd have treats or toys in my pockets waiting for that opportunity. Then, I'd say something to him. "Hey, doorstop..." just pick something that will mean you want him to associate it with movement, and then dart off. Would he chase you? If not, this kind of isn't as much fun.  When he did, I'd have a treat ready and call him into a front/sit. Praise, yay, fun. Down. Wait...run, chase (will he bite your leg or arm - my mixes might, but if he won't then great), sit/front, yay. 

If he won't chase, then the toy and tossing it, pairing it with the phrase, will help. Same idea, he is moving because you want him to. You are in a win-win situation. 

With people, I'd set it up with him on a leash and someone else using the phrase you choose (I say excuse me, please - for real, that's what I say, unless I say pardon me), and then use your treat or toy to guide him to you and into the front/sit. They can also give him a treat and praise. 

Sorry this is long and rambling for basically saying I would use positive reinforcement to create a dog who does exactly what I want and in a happy way!


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## Whiteshepherds

Are you sure he knows what "move" means?


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> It's not just the blocking doors, I'm sure. It sounds like a chronic problem and there's probably other issues you're not picking up on, or have accepted?
> I'd agree to get it under control - especially if he's growling at other people when doing this.


He has required a great deal of training and work for dominance issues. He has behaved much better in the last year except he does try to control the behavior of visitors. If a visitor makes a sudden move or swings their arm and he thinks that they are behaving aggressively he will run at them and put his mouth around their arm in a threatening way. Because of this he has to be on a lead while visitors are over or we put him downstairs where he screams and whines until he drives us crazy.



Lucy Dog said:


> What would he do if you grabbed his collar or scruff like jane mentioned? Is he like dead weight and won't budge?
> 
> And no, this is not normal behavior for a GSD or any dog.


Oh yeah, when I try to move him out of the way he won't budge and if he is standing he will dig his paws in and do everything he can to prevent me from moving him. Due to my back problems it is very difficult to deal with him at times.  Very sad that apparently we are facing another issue.


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## onyx'girl

Toss a treat away from him to get him to move then. Whatever works. It is only an issue if you make it so. I like Jeans advice....keep it fun/upbeat.


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## Germanshepherdlova

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Guys, this is a dog that has been alpha rolled to deal with his dominance.
> 
> I am going to suggest something different. I get the same thing as someone else who goes boot camp. I just get a lot more happy wiggle butt from the dog than the other way.
> 
> With me, I would make it a game. He still learns the same thing - get up when I want you to - but we just make it fun. That should lead to faster, stronger obedience when...
> 
> With other people, I would turn it into an obedience lesson.
> 
> For the game part, I'd have treats or toys in my pockets waiting for that opportunity. Then, I'd say something to him. "Hey, doorstop..." just pick something that will mean you want him to associate it with movement, and then dart off. Would he chase you? If not, this kind of isn't as much fun.  When he did, I'd have a treat ready and call him into a front/sit. Praise, yay, fun. Down. Wait...run, chase (will he bite your leg or arm - my mixes might, but if he won't then great), sit/front, yay.
> 
> If he won't chase, then the toy and tossing it, pairing it with the phrase, will help. Same idea, he is moving because you want him to. You are in a win-win situation.
> 
> With people, I'd set it up with him on a leash and someone else using the phrase you choose (I say excuse me, please - for real, that's what I say, unless I say pardon me), and then use your treat or toy to guide him to you and into the front/sit. They can also give him a treat and praise.
> 
> Sorry this is long and rambling for basically saying I would use positive reinforcement to create a dog who does exactly what I want and in a happy way!


Excellent ideas! Heck yeah he'd chase-he can't resist a chase. This would for sure work and I haven't alpha rolled him in a long time and that is why I did not turn to that in this situation. He is not being aggressive towards me just stubborn so no need for an alpha roll here. I for sure will give the treat and praise/ball-toy throw a try. Thank you!


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## Germanshepherdlova

Whiteshepherds said:


> Are you sure he knows what "move" means?


He is very intelligent and has known what move means for a long time now-he has just decided that he doesn't need to move for me anymore.


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## Lucy Dog

onyx'girl said:


> Toss a treat away from him to get him to move then. Whatever works. It is only an issue if you make it so. I like Jeans advice....keep it fun/upbeat.


Simple and a very good idea. Is he food motivated? When you need him to move, toss a high value reward for moving.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Question as far as carrying treats around in your pocket for training-whenever I do that my dogs can smell the treats and they both will follow me around the house and stick to me like glue-I can barely move to the left or right if they know I have a treat in my pocket-do your dogs do that if you have a treat on you?


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## Lucy Dog

Does he have known areas where he does this? If he does, keep a few treats, in some kind of container so he can't smell them, near those spots and take them as needed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Excellent ideas! Heck yeah he'd chase-he can't resist a chase. This would for sure work and I haven't alpha rolled him in a long time and that is why I did not turn to that in this situation. He is not being aggressive towards me just stubborn so no need for an alpha roll here. I for sure will give the treat and praise/ball-toy throw a try. Thank you!


Very cool! I hope it works. 

Just...sometimes when you invite chase, they can get a little wound up. I just did chase in my yard yesterday and my BC/Chow mix...bit my leg! She was herding me and I felt this little nip and looked down and she was smiling like YES! I don't want to create a whole 'nother problem for you. 

My old dog (avatar Blk/Tan) was a GSD-Chow mix. Supposedly there was some Rottweiler. I took him to a trainer for an eval and he said dominant, fear aggressive and I said well, when will he realize I am in charge and he said, oh, never. :rofl: He told me every morning when I woke up, that dog will watch you to see if you are on your game and will be waiting to take over if not. :wub: So for the 15 years that I had him, we see-sawed back and forth every day. Interestingly that trainer encouraged using weird (back then) positive methods and putting the dog in that positive - positive where they have no choice but to do what you want, in a good way. So even though I was dealing with the temperament and personality that I was, as long as I used those methods, I ended up the winner at the end of the day. :wild:

And when he got old, there were days I would give up - I was exhausted! As long as I wasn't letting him win, he was happy. So enjoy!


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## Germanshepherdlova

Lucy Dog said:


> Does he have known areas where he does this? If he does, keep a few treats, in some kind of container so he can't smell them, near those spots and take them as needed.


Yes, he always does it in front of the upstairs staircase or bedroom and bathroom doors. I can put some treats in plastic containers and place them near the areas. That is a very good idea, thank you!


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## Germanshepherdlova

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Very cool! I hope it works.
> 
> Just...sometimes when you invite chase, they can get a little wound up. I just did chase in my yard yesterday and my BC/Chow mix...bit my leg! She was herding me and I felt this little nip and looked down and she was smiling like YES! I don't want to create a whole 'nother problem for you.
> 
> My old dog (avatar Blk/Tan) was a GSD-Chow mix. Supposedly there was some Rottweiler. I took him to a trainer for an eval and he said dominant, fear aggressive and I said well, when will he realize I am in charge and he said, oh, never. :rofl: He told me every morning when I woke up, that dog will watch you to see if you are on your game and will be waiting to take over if not. :wub: So for the 15 years that I had him, we see-sawed back and forth every day. Interestingly that trainer encouraged using weird (back then) positive methods and putting the dog in that positive - positive where they have no choice but to do what you want, in a good way. So even though I was dealing with the temperament and personality that I was, as long as I used those methods, I ended up the winner at the end of the day. :wild:
> 
> And when he got old, there were days I would give up - I was exhausted! As long as I wasn't letting him win, he was happy. So enjoy!


Good grief, my dog has virtually the same diagnoses as yours and no wonder I keep waking up every morning hoping that this is the day that he realizes that I am in charge-but no, its just as you said-he never tires of challenging my authority. Heck sometimes I have to admit that I do get tired and let him have his way. I have had people ask me for instance-why is he sitting on the couch after you said he wasn't allowed-my answer-I threw in the towel! He now has his "spot" on the couch. 

When I put him in the backyard he will not come back inside unless I negotiate with him. I have to offer him a snack and then he will come inside. Oh, and he will not pee unless I tell him that I will play ball with him-once I do he will pee right away-when I have to leave quickly in the morning believe me I negotiate. If my neighbors overhear me they probably think I am nuts. I don't really care as long as I can get him to comply. Some people I know are pack leader training only and tell me that I need to fix him so that he obeys out of fear. Their dogs do obey them but they also tuck their head down in fear when their owner is near them and visibly tremble. So it has been suggested by them that he is like he is because he hasn't received a good butt kicking. I just know that I am not going to beat my dog-I do the best I can with him. If I have to compromise to get him to obey then I will. It has worked so far and so I guess that treats will get him to comply so that we can peacefully deal this new issue as well. Now I am rambling on-sorry!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Not a problem, I rambled! Twice!

The deal with this trainer was to make it your idea. So yeah, Kramer got on the couch, but until he could no longer do it, he would wait for me to tell him to do so. And we did that by starting out him getting on the couch on his own, me making him (usually luring until we could phase it out) get up, and then telling him to get up (and sometimes then he'd just walk away, you could almost here him saying screw that), and it actually started with me...when he would sit, I would say good sit, like it was my idea. Again, he'd often get up and walk off...

So as long as these things are your idea (and if they aren't right now, make them yours) then he is doing what you want him to. Sometimes we need to kind of fake it, but for a dog that has this weird agenda, these are the first steps to getting them to be your partner.


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## Kaz

There is a Cesar Milan dog whisperer video about this. Except the dog he handled had other aggression issues as well.

Have you established with your dog that you are boss? Things like rough housing are actually pretty good to bond with your dog and in natural play teach them in a gentle way you are boss.

Grabbing his muzzle, the fur by his neck, a gentle nudge to his hind quarters or just pinning him down are natural techniques that mothers use to calm down a overly active pup. 

They are not cruel, and quite effective. Also, one thing I have noticed and try telling my fiancee time and again, even during play is: when the dog charges at you playfully, hold her ground and in fact meet the dog head on. Show him who is boss.

One very important command and infact the first command a pup should learn, is to "come". (I do that with a whistle, any key word or sharp sound will do.) 

Reinforcing that command helps very extensively in

1) learning to walk well on a loose leash
2) diffusing a threatening situation with other dogs or a kid 
3) Moving the dog away from a potential harmful situation (dangerous objects, cars, etc)
4) Getting them in the mindset for training. (Ok, drop what you are doing, its time for lessons!)

Do not worry about smaller issues like the dog being lazy. 

And honestly, I saw this training video about aggressive dogs. The trainer said, if you run, the dog will chase. If you flail your arms, that's the gesture a wounded animal would make before going down, and thus would arouse the prey drive of the dog. Concise movements with a calm demeanor works wonders.

So maybe get a squeaky toy, use it to grab his attention and throw the toy to a distance so the dog naturally goes to get it, as opposed to you running away from the dog getting him to chase.

Dogs are super sensitive to how we feel. They cant talk, but trust me, they FEEL everything you are feeling. 

Dont give the dog the pleasure of knowing he gets a rise out you every time he refuses to move. Distract the latent conflict with the squeaky toy!


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## Emoore

I'm sorry I forget, how old is Brutus again?


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## Germanshepherdlova

Kaz said:


> There is a Cesar Milan dog whisperer video about this. Except the dog he handled had other aggression issues as well.
> 
> Have you established with your dog that you are boss? Things like rough housing are actually pretty good to bond with your dog and in natural play teach them in a gentle way you are boss.
> 
> Grabbing his muzzle, the fur by his neck, a gentle nudge to his hind quarters or just pinning him down are natural techniques that mothers use to calm down a overly active pup.
> 
> They are not cruel, and quite effective. Also, one thing I have noticed and try telling my fiancee time and again, even during play is: when the dog charges at you playfully, hold her ground and in fact meet the dog head on. Show him who is boss.
> 
> One very important command and infact the first command a pup should learn, is to "come". (I do that with a whistle, any key word or sharp sound will do.)
> 
> Reinforcing that command helps very extensively in
> 
> 1) learning to walk well on a loose leash
> 2) diffusing a threatening situation with other dogs or a kid
> 3) Moving the dog away from a potential harmful situation (dangerous objects, cars, etc)
> 4) Getting them in the mindset for training. (Ok, drop what you are doing, its time for lessons!)
> 
> Do not worry about smaller issues like the dog being lazy.
> 
> And honestly, I saw this training video about aggressive dogs. The trainer said, if you run, the dog will chase. If you flail your arms, that's the gesture a wounded animal would make before going down, and thus would arouse the prey drive of the dog. Concise movements with a calm demeanor works wonders.
> 
> So maybe get a squeaky toy, use it to grab his attention and throw the toy to a distance so the dog naturally goes to get it, as opposed to you running away from the dog getting him to chase.
> 
> Dogs are super sensitive to how we feel. They cant talk, but trust me, they FEEL everything you are feeling.
> 
> Dont give the dog the pleasure of knowing he gets a rise out you every time he refuses to move. Distract the latent conflict with the squeaky toy!


My dog has had aggression issues in the past that we have dealt with-here is a thread where I post a brief description of the situation we had with him-on this thread look at comment number 86. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/171929-stop-hating-dog-whisperer-he-has-saved-many-dogs-being-pts-2.html



Emoore said:


> I'm sorry I forget, how old is Brutus again?


He turned 3 yo last month.


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## msvette2u

Kaz said:


> There is a Cesar Milan dog whisperer video about this. Except the dog he handled had other aggression issues as well.
> 
> Have you established with your dog that you are boss? Things like rough housing are actually pretty good to bond with your dog and in natural play teach them in a gentle way you are boss.
> 
> Grabbing his muzzle, the fur by his neck, a gentle nudge to his hind quarters or just pinning him down are natural techniques that mothers use to calm down a overly active pup.
> 
> They are not cruel, and quite effective. Also, one thing I have noticed and try telling my fiancee time and again, even during play is: when the dog charges at you playfully, hold her ground and in fact meet the dog head on. Show him who is boss.
> 
> One very important command and infact the first command a pup should learn, is to "come". (I do that with a whistle, any key word or sharp sound will do.)
> 
> Reinforcing that command helps very extensively in
> 
> 1) learning to walk well on a loose leash
> 2) diffusing a threatening situation with other dogs or a kid
> 3) Moving the dog away from a potential harmful situation (dangerous objects, cars, etc)
> 4) Getting them in the mindset for training. (Ok, drop what you are doing, its time for lessons!)
> 
> Do not worry about smaller issues like the dog being lazy.
> 
> And honestly, I saw this training video about aggressive dogs. The trainer said, if you run, the dog will chase. If you flail your arms, that's the gesture a wounded animal would make before going down, and thus would arouse the prey drive of the dog. Concise movements with a calm demeanor works wonders.
> 
> So maybe get a squeaky toy, use it to grab his attention and throw the toy to a distance so the dog naturally goes to get it, as opposed to you running away from the dog getting him to chase.
> 
> Dogs are super sensitive to how we feel. They cant talk, but trust me, they FEEL everything you are feeling.
> 
> Dont give the dog the pleasure of knowing he gets a rise out you every time he refuses to move. Distract the latent conflict with the squeaky toy!


So...did you actually do all this to a dog or dogs, or did you just watch a video??


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## Germanshepherdlova

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Not a problem, I rambled! Twice!
> 
> The deal with this trainer was to make it your idea. So yeah, Kramer got on the couch, but until he could no longer do it, he would wait for me to tell him to do so. And we did that by starting out him getting on the couch on his own, me making him (usually luring until we could phase it out) get up, and then telling him to get up (and sometimes then he'd just walk away, you could almost here him saying screw that), and it actually started with me...when he would sit, I would say good sit, like it was my idea. Again, he'd often get up and walk off...
> 
> So as long as these things are your idea (and if they aren't right now, make them yours) then he is doing what you want him to. Sometimes we need to kind of fake it, but for a dog that has this weird agenda, these are the first steps to getting them to be your partner.


I really like this idea. Brutus reminds me of a strong willed child, if I told him to get on the couch I am sure that he would not. I guess this is about using reverse psychology and outsmarting him. Tomorrow morning-watch out Brutus! Mommy is armed with some new ideas! Thanks again for the suggestions-I really think they are going to be very effective with him!


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## msvette2u

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I really like this idea. Brutus reminds me of a strong willed child, if I told him to get on the couch I am sure that he would not. I guess this is about using reverse psychology and outsmarting him. Tomorrow morning-watch out Brutus! Mommy is armed with some new ideas! Thanks again for the suggestions-I really think they are going to be very effective with him!


With a dog who's displaying dominance and being stubborn about it, you can train multiple ways. But I learned years ago that you simply cannot "out dominate" some dogs. If a dog is truly dominant they can easily become quite aggressive to "hold their place". 
That's why (to mention another post) alpha rolls, while sometimes they do/can work, if a dog truly isn't going to give up his position, you can lose a face pretty easily. 

I'd do what Jean (who is brilliant, btw) suggested and I think you're going to have more positive results from it. It sounds like fun and the dog will see it as such I am sure. 
Looking forward to hearing how he does!


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> So...did you actually do all this to a dog or dogs, or did you just watch a video??


Not to answer for this poster but the putting your hands under his muzzle deal-well thanks to the New Sketes and a video I rented from them this putting your hand under his muzzle got me bitten. I knew my dog had issues with dominance but wasn't sure just how deep these issues ran so I rented this video and it showed how to do dominance testing. The video said to put your hand under the dogs muzzle and a docile dog would let you but a dominant dog would pull away from you. I put my hand under Brutus' muzzle and he turned into what I can only describe as a demon. He got enraged and bite the crap out of me and stood there snarling and growling at me afterwards. 

Well, that is when I ran for a trainer to help us and ended up with the alpha roll training technique which did work because he never bite me again after the alpha roll but he still has other dominance issues to work with-this is an ongoing thing. I am so glad for this forum because there is always an abundance of wonderful advice here. And I do believe that a positive/rewarding approach would work best for Brutus in the current challenge that he is presenting.


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> With a dog who's displaying dominance and being stubborn about it, you can train multiple ways. But I learned years ago that you simply cannot "out dominate" some dogs. If a dog is truly dominant they can easily become quite aggressive to "hold their place".
> That's why (to mention another post) alpha rolls, while sometimes they do/can work, if a dog truly isn't going to give up his position, you can lose a face pretty easily.
> 
> I'd do what Jean (who is brilliant, btw) suggested and I think you're going to have more positive results from it. It sounds like fun and the dog will see it as such I am sure.
> Looking forward to hearing how he does!


I will make sure to provide an update tomorrow night on how the day goes using these new approaches.


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## msvette2u

I'm glad you learned and sorry you got bitten. 
This forum is great 

But yeah. Until you actually encounter a dominant dog, to sit and advise others on what to do to "cure" it is rather foolhardy. 

Either watch videos, or go find a truly dominant dog (shelters sometimes have them) and grab it's muzzle, scruff or whatever. Good luck with that.


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## Kaz

msvette2u said:


> So...did you actually do all this to a dog or dogs, or did you just watch a video??



I just referred to the Cesar Milan video in my post, incase there is more to the situation than just sitting at the door, he has more advanced tips and tricks. 

What I typed about technique, are things, I have personally tried with Manfred. His breeder, some trainers and experience taught me this. And I sincerely believe them to be good techniques.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I knew my dog had issues with dominance but wasn't sure just how deep these issues ran so I rented this video and it showed how to do dominance testing. The video said to put your hand under the dogs muzzle and a docile dog would let you but a dominant dog would pull away from you. I put my hand under Brutus' muzzle and he turned into what I can only describe as a demon. He got enraged and bite the crap out of me and stood there snarling and growling at me afterwards.


I have never heard of this before, in my 25 years of owning dogs.  And I don't see how a dogs response to this "test" would have anything to do with dominance or submission. I CAN see how it might have something to do with handling desensitization, however. A dog, whether dominant or submissive, who was accustomed to being handled all over their body from a young age seems like they'd be more likely to accept this than a dog, whether dominant or submissive, who was not.


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## Lucy Dog

Kaz said:


> I just referred to the Cesar Milan video in my post, incase there is more to the situation than just sitting at the door, he has more advanced tips and tricks.
> 
> What I typed about technique, are things, I have personally tried with Manfred. His breeder, some trainers and experience taught me this.* And I sincerely believe them to be good techniques.*


Yeah? Try those techniques on a truly dominant (i'm talking real dominance) adult dog instead of a 30 pound untrained puppy and let us know how it turns out for you.


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## Kaz

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah? Try those techniques on a truly dominant (i'm talking real dominance) adult dog instead of a 30 pound untrained puppy and let us know how it turns out for you.



So the OP's dog is "REAL DOMINANCE" because he is not moving from the doorway?

Wow, impressive! Maybe next you can tell me whats this month's winning lottery number? We had chicken for dinner, want me to mail the bones to help you with the divining?


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## Lucy Dog

Kaz said:


> I love how you just come with so much aggression in your posts.


Because you don't happen to like what I post... it's aggression. Ok... 



Kaz said:


> You have determined that a 3 year old dog is a "dominance" dog, because he does not move from the doorway. Other than that, there is absolutely no inkling from the OP's post that the dog is aggressive.
> 
> Super, you should start a 1-900 number and start charging for your psychic abilities.


Or you can go back and read the first post in this thread. Or you can go back and read the OP's past posts and threads - those numbers next to the word "posts" means that particular person has posted more than once! Or you can just ask the OP yourself. I'll leave that decision up to you.



Kaz said:


> The tips I wrote come from a breeder with 30 years experience. 2 trainers from Beverly hills, who cater to the whims of the nations richest. And scores of training videos.


And, what's your point? Do you guys on the west coast have a different type of GSD's or something? Who are the trainers? Who's the breeder? What experience besides breeding does she have?



Kaz said:


> Actually some tips came even from trainers who work with wolf hybrids. I suggest you look those up. They are a bit more aggressive than your most unruly GSD. And a tad bit stronger... how much... Oh I dont know, maybe around 300 to 400 psi bite pressure stronger?


To be honest, it sounds like you got your tips off of a few dog whisperer episodes or youtube clips, but if you say so. I'm just using my 1-900 psychic abilities with that one.



Kaz said:


> BTW I would love to see you start a real life conversation with "Yeah?". I would love to see some one even try to take that tone with me in real life.


As opposed to threatening me with a, "i'd like to see you try this in person" over the internet? Ok... :rolleyes2:



Kaz said:


> You just resort to aggressive posts to prove your point. And are unable to listen to anything else just because YOU need to prove a god darn point.


Again, I'm giving my opinion. If you don't like it, TOO BAD. It's a public forum and I don't think I'm breaking any rules. You don't make the rules and you don't control what other people say on a public forum, Kaz.



Kaz said:


> Your baloney posts about egg shells are case and point. I showed your posts to the vet on my iPhone, she laughed her a55 off.


And what's his/her background in the dog nutrition field? Most vets don't know squat about dog nutrition. They take a few courses in vet school, taught by a company like science diet or purina. Why do you think vets are always pushing that crap in their waiting rooms?! I'll give you a hint... it's not because it's the best diet!

What I learned in Vet School about Nutrition | Veterinary Secrets Blog with Dr. Andrew Jones, DVM

Myths About Raw: Is my vet really qualified to be giving nutritional advice?

So, again, what's your vets qualifications in the pet nutritional field? What studies and research has she done? Was anything published? 

There were plenty of members here, besides my "aggressive" self, who gave you plenty of case studies and research in your egg shell thread. It wasn't just me making something up out of the blue. Why exactly does she feel overfeeding a large breed puppy too much calcium as something to laugh about? Maybe you should switch vets... i probably would.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Looks like you edited your last post and deleted all the nonsense you said while I was typing everything up. Ehh... whatever, guess your edited post is still going to show up.

I'm going to sleep... i've been working the last 10+ hours... my eyes are shutting. It's been fun, Kaz.

And I still stand by the post that started this. I'd love to see you try your techniques to a truly dominant adult dog and see if you still recommend trying that stuff. I was speaking generally, not specific to this dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I have never heard of this before, in my 25 years of owning dogs.  And I don't see how a dogs response to this "test" would have anything to do with dominance or submission. I CAN see how it might have something to do with handling desensitization, however. A dog, whether dominant or submissive, who was accustomed to being handled all over their body from a young age seems like they'd be more likely to accept this than a dog, whether dominant or submissive, who was not.


It was a test that the New Sketes do on puppies to determine their personalities and so they know with whom to place each puppy. My dog was about 5 months old at the time. Either way, my dog didn't like his muzzle area being touched at all.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Kaz said:


> So the OP's dog is "REAL DOMINANCE" because he is not moving from the doorway?
> 
> Wow, impressive! Maybe next you can tell me whats this month's winning lottery number? We had chicken for dinner, want me to mail the bones to help you with the divining?


I don't want to revisit all the dominance aggression issues that we have dealt with right now. I have posts before about some of the stuff we have been through with him and the training that worked for him to get him to the point were he stopped biting us for simply pointing at him and giving him an order. I do not share everything on here but enough for people to understand the situation. I am always looking for good advice though from people who have been down this difficult path with a dog with these issues before. If you personally have experience with this please feel free to share or even inbox me any tips that have worked for you.

Well, I am going to get off the computer and start using the treat/ball throw technique with him and I will update everyone later.


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## ayoitzrimz

Just ignore Kaz, he's obviously trolling...

as per the OP - if my dog doesn't move I just keep walking as if he's not there. He moves. Nothing related to dominance here, just me asking for my space and making sure he understands (no collar grabbing, hitting, yelling required - not that I'm suggesting you did those things) that this is my space. I just sort of keep shuffling my feet forward as if he's not there at all. He learned pretty quickly


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## Lilie

ayoitzrimz said:


> Just ignore Kaz, he's obviously trolling...
> 
> as per the OP - if my dog doesn't move I just keep walking as if he's not there. He moves. Nothing related to dominance here, just me asking for my space and making sure he understands (no collar grabbing, hitting, yelling required - not that I'm suggesting you did those things) that this is my space. I just sort of keep shuffling my feet forward as if he's not there at all. He learned pretty quickly


I do the same thing to my boy. I step over him or if he is in the way (like in front of the fridge) I'll weasel my foot under him and make kissing noises (habit due to ownership of horses). He jumps up. Sometimes I think he does it in an effort to get my attention for play. He has no sinister motives behind it.


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## msvette2u

Germanshepherdlova said:


> It was a test that the New Sketes do on puppies to determine their personalities and so they know with whom to place each puppy. My dog was about 5 months old at the time. Either way, my dog didn't like his muzzle area being touched at all.


We've had puppies here that cannot stand to have the front of their neck touched. They freak out like you described.
I don't know as it's dominance as much as a fear response since the front of their neck is most vulnerable.


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## mysweetkaos

I read through the thread...but it was before I'd had enough coffee, so I apologize if you already answered this. If he is laying in a doorway, how does he react to you just stepping over him? Not suggesting you should have to....just curious what his reaction is to that, could help explain his "motivation" a bit.


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> We've had puppies here that cannot stand to have the front of their neck touched. They freak out like you described.
> I don't know as it's dominance as much as a fear response since the front of their neck is most vulnerable.


I rented a DVD from the library and it was pretty old from the Monks of New Skete and there were several steps to the part about testing a puppy for dominance and just to see what type of temper/personality the puppies have to help the monks decide who each puppy would be given to. The part I am describing was that you were supposed to be able to grab the puppy with your hand under the muzzle and put your hand gently around his muzzle that is when he flipped out-but he hadn't passed any portion of the dominance test anyhow up to that point. 

Brutus' trainer said that he had dominance aggression-which was no news to me and the training that we were taught with him included doing the Alpha roll. It did work well in that he learned rather quickly that the bite he gave me for alpha rolling him was the last bite I ever received from him. After that he even lets me grab his muzzle though he doesn't enjoy it so I don't frequently do it just enough so that he is ok enough with that in case he ever needs his mouth examined I can hold his muzzle for the vet without him biting.

He hasn't blocked the doors or staircase today so I haven't been able to try out the fun training with him yet. Figures when I am actually waiting for him to do it would be the day he doesn't.


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## Germanshepherdlova

mysweetkaos said:


> I read through the thread...but it was before I'd had enough coffee, so I apologize if you already answered this. If he is laying in a doorway, how does he react to you just stepping over him? Not suggesting you should have to....just curious what his reaction is to that, could help explain his "motivation" a bit.


He doesn't care if I step over him but if he is standing and blocking the staircase or doorway and I go to push him over he will push back and try not to let me pass. He will not budge an inch until I literally have to use almost all my strength to get him out of my way.


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## msvette2u

I wonder if the dominance is actually insecurity?
Because he's trying to control your actions and movements, that's sometimes the sign of an INsecure dog rather than dominant.

Have you checked into MIND GAMES?
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong 

I'm curious how he'd react to a "long down" for instance. Knowing him, you should not have to do it, to know how he'd react.


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## kiya

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *Question as far as carrying treats around in your pocket for training*-whenever I do that my dogs can smell the treats and they both will follow me around the house and stick to me like glue-I can barely move to the left or right if they know I have a treat in my pocket-do your dogs do that if you have a treat on you?


Sometimes I put treats on a plate & put it up on the entertainment center (out of reach) then I just step away to get the treat.


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## Bismarck

msvette2u said:


> , or go find a truly dominant dog (shelters sometimes have them) and grab it's muzzle, scruff or whatever. Good luck with that.


lol... this is something i would NEVER EVER do to any of the dogs we bring in, regardless of if i know they're fine or not.


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## Bismarck

i have a question.

when you're sitting on the couch, watching TV, where is he at?

is he allowed on furniture?


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## Courtney

Bismarck said:


> i have a question.
> 
> when you're sitting on the couch, watching TV, where is he at?
> 
> is he allowed on furniture?


Good question, I know where your going with this.


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## Cassidy's Mom

You can desensitize your dog to the treats. My dogs know that just because I have food on my person it doesn't mean they're going to get any. They still have to earn it by doing what I want.


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## Bismarck

well, i'm going with absolutely no dogs on furniture. #1.

let me explain my circumstances, and see if you can adapt it to fit your situation.

Biz has 3 legs, and was VERY hesitant to let me touch his one and only front paw.
So as i was watching TV, with him sleeping on his dog bed that i put directly in front of me, i'd lay down and reach over, and slowly pet him, slowly moving all over. When i saw him start to drift off, i'd start moving towards his paw. When he'd jerk and wake up, i'd slowly go back to his body. rinse and repeat.
I'd do this with every body part, gently and slowly desensitizing him to my touch. I even did this with his muzzle. petting and gently encircling my hand around his muzzle. you have to make him feel you're not trying to dominate him by holding him mouth shut, he'll just feel you petting him.


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## Jax08

I find it easier to train a new command than to retrain and old one. What does "move" mean to him? Either it means stand like a statue or it means nothing.

I am very lucky that Jax is very pliable.  I simply touch her butt and say 'watch out'.

So, along with Jean's suggestions, how about adding a new word to teaching him to move aside?


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## carmspack

put a tab on his collar . If he is blocking the staircase , you grab the tab and you bring him along with you up the stairs , or you take the tab and you give him a pull so that he moves downstairs while you continue up .
Laying down and you want him to move -- grab the tab and move him, there's a good boy - lets move.
During the day at any time , your whim , you take that tab and you move him - follow from one room to another , move him to put him in the crate (for no reason - even if only for 5 minutes) - just to control his movement . You say jump he asks how far . Always pleasant . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## mysweetkaos

Jax08 said:


> I find it easier to train a new command than to retrain and old one. What does "move" mean to him? Either it means stand like a statue or it means nothing.
> 
> I am very lucky that Jax is very pliable.  I simply touch her butt and say 'watch out'.
> 
> So, along with Jean's suggestions, how about adding a new word to teaching him to move aside?


I think that is a good idea. Move might seem optional to him at this point. Maybe when you approach where he is, toss the treat and say "get" or "skat" or a new word as he jumps up to get the treat? Sounds like it might work?



carmspack said:


> put a tab on his collar . If he is blocking the staircase , you grab the tab and you bring him along with you up the stairs , or you take the tab and you give him a pull so that he moves downstairs while you continue up .
> Laying down and you want him to move -- grab the tab and move him, there's a good boy - lets move.
> During the day at any time , your whim , you take that tab and you move him - follow from one room to another , move him to put him in the crate (for no reason - even if only for 5 minutes) - just to control his movement . You say jump he asks how far . Always pleasant .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


That sounds similiar to how we taught Sherman "move"...although since Brutus has had issues with biting in the past, I would try the "non-forceful" method first. I think this is a good method.....if there isn't already a power struggle in play. Which to the best of my knowledge, which is limited I'll admit, I wouldn't want to escalate


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## Wolfgeist

I would incorporate yielding into your life if he is acting like on obstacle in your path on a daily basis.

yielding


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## carmspack

yeah , I'm with Wild Wolf , I wouldn't make it a game . What if you have an animal who then reloads , goes back in to position , to get you to respond with a toss and play. Then he has trained you. He has to yield . Respect . 
That mind set comes into play more ways than you can think.

Carmen


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## Germanshepherdlova

carmspack said:


> put a tab on his collar . If he is blocking the staircase , you grab the tab and you bring him along with you up the stairs , or you take the tab and you give him a pull so that he moves downstairs while you continue up .
> Laying down and you want him to move -- grab the tab and move him, there's a good boy - lets move.
> During the day at any time , your whim , you take that tab and you move him - follow from one room to another , move him to put him in the crate (for no reason - even if only for 5 minutes) - just to control his movement . You say jump he asks how far . Always pleasant .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


What is a tab?


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## mysweetkaos

Germanshepherdlova said:


> What is a tab?


Not sure if it is the same thing as Carmen was referring to, but what I use, clips to the collar like a leash, but it is about a 6 inch loop handle. Kaos actually had a collar with one built in when he was younger. Enables me to get a ahold of them quickly if necessary.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Wild Wolf said:


> I would incorporate yielding into your life if he is acting like on obstacle in your path on a daily basis.
> 
> yielding


Yielding is exactly what I have been trying to get him to do. He yields for no one. I had taught him to sit and wait in the doorway while I go out first but recently he has decided to challenge that as well and for the past couple weeks has tried to barrel me over. He only does this to gain access to the backyard-if I open the front door he just sits and watches-he knows he doesn't go out the front door without his lead on but into the backyard-he no longer wants to wait for the command to go out. He has always and still is running down the stairs ahead of us, he is just very, very pushy. I really believe that he is rechallenging me. But make him yield-I think that would take a lifetime to accomplish.


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## Germanshepherdlova

mysweetkaos said:


> Not sure if it is the same thing as Carmen was referring to, but what I use, clips to the collar like a leash, but it is about a 6 inch loop handle. Kaos actually had a collar with one built in when he was younger. Enables me to get a ahold of them quickly if necessary.


One of my leashes has a feature where you can loop it back like that-wonder if that is what Carmen is talking about.


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## carmspack

make him move. he has no choice. not stopping and waiting like some door stop , get out of the way .
it's an overall mind set -- when you go for a walk have him in heel don't let him drag you over here to there , ahead of you , deciding speed and direction. No stopping to sniff or mark - he is on Your walk, not you on his.

tab is any extension - could be a cord or loop which is about 6 to 8 inches , not dragging or interfering


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## Cassidy's Mom

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Yielding is exactly what I have been trying to get him to do. He yields for no one. I had taught him to sit and wait in the doorway while I go out first but recently he has decided to challenge that as well and for the past couple weeks has tried to barrel me over.


Slam the door in his face! It's not that hard to teach dogs that doors don't open until they sit, and that if they get up, the door will close. It has nothing to with "challenging" you. Body block him as the door is closing to prevent him from getting past you. 

I'm not super strict on this now that my dogs know the rules and are generally pretty obedient, so I often say "okay" and open the door without making them sit and wait first. But every so often I test them - if we're going out to the garage for a meal I'll stop in front of the door and wait for the dogs to sit. Then I'll fling the door open but just stand there. If either of them breaks the sit and goes out before I say the word, I beckon them back inside and we try again. 

I do the same thing with bully sticks, which are kept in a cabinet in the garage. They have to sit back a few feet while I open the cabinet, if they rush forward, the cabinet door closes and I wait for them to back off and sit again. Once I have their bully sticks in hand we go to the door into the house and I wait while they sit. Again, I'll fling the door open but just stand there in the garage, and if they run into the house before being released, I make them come back out and sit again. Funny, it ALWAYS only takes one try!

They aren't challenging me, they're just excited about something they really value, which is a terrific opportunity to work on impulse control.


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## kiya

Wild Wolf said:


> I would incorporate yielding into your life if he is acting like on obstacle in your path on a daily basis.
> 
> yielding


That was a very good article. Without realizing it, I taught it, maybe because of being around horses "move" or "move over" is a very important command or request. We have a small house and a lot of times I will walk over the dogs, specially the older ones I feel bad making them get up, but if I ask them to move they do.


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## msvette2u

Germanshepherdlova said:


> What is a tab?


A very short leash. You can use a dollar store leash and cut off all but 5" of it. Moving him around throughout the day incorporates some of "Mind Games". I like just leashing them to me (my daughter does this with Ruger actually) and dragging them around for a while. 
************************ Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!

Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.

Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.

Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!

Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.

At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.

If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!

Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!

Dogs sometimes use urination and defecation to mark their own territories. Some males are particularly persistent about urine marking as many places as possible (some bitches do this as well). I call this “pee-mail”--dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine. Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.

Urine marking is different from regular urination--the dog sniffs something (often a vertical object or a place where another dog has peed), then moves forward a little and sprinkles that place with a few drops of urine.

If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.

Mind Game #4: Patience!

Dogs that are overly pushy and dogs that are too fearful share one important personality trait: they tend to be impatient. They move, act and make decisions too quickly. Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.

First teach your dog to do a down. Then put him on leash, have him do a down and run the leash under your own foot. Leave your dog enough slack to lie comfortably but not enough to be comfortable sitting or standing.

If your dog gets up, just stay quiet and keep pressure on the leash. Let your dog discover how to be comfortable. Your dog will eventually relax and just hang out.

If you do this regularly, your dog will start to relax sooner and sooner.

Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority. As almost every dog could tell you, the best spots to sleep in any house are the furniture and human beds.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog lacks respect for you, prohibit your dog from getting up on the furniture and on your bed. If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving. Don’t be harsh, just firm and matter of fact.

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

If your dog sneaks up on the bed with you after you fall asleep, put him in a crate or shut him out of the bedroom.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog is fearful or anxious, it is important to get your dog out of the bedroom. British trainer John Rogerson has noted that he has never seen a case of separation anxiety in a dog that routinely sleeps outside the bedroom. I have seen a few cases of separation anxiety in dogs that didn’t sleep in the owner’s bedroom but *did* sleep with one or more other dogs. Removing the other dogs did trigger anxiety, so make sure your dog is sleeping in a room alone.

Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!

Dogs can take control of a space by lying in the middle of the traffic pattern or by lying in the doorway. Anxious dogs are trying to prevent their owner from leaving, dogs with leadership ambitions are trying to control their owner’s movement. In dog society, the lesser ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

Don’t ask your dog to move or warn your dog that you are about to make him move. Make it your dog’s responsibility to keep an eye on you and to move as needed to accommodate you.

If you think your dog might bite you, consult a trainer or behaviorist with experience dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP! In the meantime, put a buckle or limited-slip collar on your dog and attach a houseline. Use the houseline to move your dog.

Mind Game #7: Follow the Leader!

Teaching your dog to follow you teaches your dog to keep an eye on you and to accommodate your movements. You’re an important person in your dog’s life and if he doesn’t know it, it’s time for him to learn it.

Tie your dog’s leash to your belt or around your waist for at least one hour each day. Go about your every day business without paying particular attention to your dog. Don’t warn your dog you are about to move, don’t pay attention to your dog, don’t coax him to come with you. Make it his responsibility to follow his leader (you!) around.

It’s inconvenient to do--but the more often you can do this, the faster you will see a change in your dog’s behavior.

Mind Game #8: Take Control of Your Dog’s Body!

Dogs prefer to be touched on their own terms. Some dogs want to be petted constantly and some dogs would prefer only to be handled by invitation only.

If your dog solicits petting constantly, stop all free petting. Insist that your dog earn each petting session by performing one or more commands and keep each petting session short in duration.

If your dog doesn’t enjoy being handled, make sure that you handle your dog all over every day. Make sure you can touch and examine every part of your dog’s body, including his ears and between his pads.

If it gives you more confidence in handling, wear gloves until you feel safe handling your dog. If you think there is a high probability that your dog will bite you, seek professional help!

Mind Game #9: S/he Who Owns the Most Toys Wins!

In dog society, the dog able to control the most resources is usually the highest ranked. Giving a dog lots of toys that no one else touches can give that dog a mistaken impression of his own rank in the world. Overly confident dogs can become aggressive resource guarders and overly fearful dogs feel stressed by the enormity of their responsibilities.

Pick up and put out of your dog’s reach all of the toys, including chew toys. Hold one play session per day with your dog where you bring out one toy and use it to play with your dog for 10-15 minutes.

If your dog declines to play with you, put the toy away without comment.

Mind Game #10: Daily Chores!

Remind your dog that he works for his living by holding two short daily obedience sessions. For 5-10 minutes in each session, run through all the commands your dog knows or teach him new ones.

These can be combined with hand feeding sessions.

Mind Game #11: A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body!

Dogs need physical exercise to stay physically and mentally healthy. Make sure your dog is getting 30 minutes of aerobic exercise every other day. Aerobic exercise is any exercise that makes your dog pant steadily. Depending on your dog’s size and fitness level, this can be on lead walking, jogging, road work, treadmill, retrieve games, swimming or pulling.

It’s difficult for many people to walk fast enough to give a medium or large dog aerobic exercise (any dog over about 25 pounds). If on lead walking is the only option, you can increase the ooomph factor by teaching your dog to pull a drag from a nonrestrictive harness. I start small with loops of rope and work up to motorcycle tires (depending on the size and condition of the dog). This has an added advantage for conformation people of building the dog’s rear.


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## GregK

Bismarck said:


> is he allowed on furniture?


 
????


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## carmspack

excellent post and recommendations msvette2u .


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## Germanshepherdlova

Thank you everyone for all the helpful advice.

To answer the furniture question, we have a sectional and he is allowed to sit on the furthest seat to the right and that is the only seat he is allowed to sit on and he respects that. He is not allowed on the beds and he is not allowed in the kitchen while we are eating.


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## Germanshepherdlova

carmspack said:


> excellent post and recommendations msvette2u .


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## selzer

I have used the monks of new skete puppy temperament test, and the description of putting a hand under the muzzle I do not recall at all. The test is supposed to be the most effective at 49 days, and there is some elevation tests that would not work for a five month old or older, so maybe that is a variation for older dogs. When working with older dogs, one needs to consider that a response may be dominant, or it may be a reaction to an environmental situation. For example, if a pup was muzzled and than choked out regularly, the pup/dog might have an aversion to their muzzle being touched at all. 

But I do not want to argue about whether this dog is dominant. Taking strategic spots and maintaining control of them, certainly could be. And I am out of my league if the dog is truly dominant. So the following is just an opinion.

The more I work with dogs, and babysit young kids, the more I see that what works for one very often works for the other. I mean outsmarting kids, outwitting dogs. For eons people felt they had to physically dominate children and dogs to get results. In the past few decades, dominating children by physical force/punishment has pretty much gone by the wayside, but mostly it is really hanging on with dogs. I do not think that it (force) works any better with the dominant dog than it does with the follower-type dog. 

Would I force this dog to yield to demonstrate that I make the decisions? I don't think I would. I would try a different tactic. If I had a dog that took up a position and refused to move, I would work around the dog for now, but I would change some things. I would up my training and exercise sessions with the dog. Oh, you can't move when I want you too, too tired, well, time to get your butt off the floor and do something that you want to do. 

Increasing the training time, per day, by double maybe. Mixing it up. Putting him off-balance. If you generally to a halt sit, have him stand, have him down. Move on. Keep it quick, keep it jumping, and double the time you spend in all out training every day. If you are not doing training every day, start with two ten minute sessions. Make him WANT to do what you are asking. When he does it right, party, treat, praise -- but then back that off, to intermittent treats, and praise for the a line of commands, praise for the quickest response. 

I would also if possible double the dog's exercise(fun) time -- time either walking or throwing the ball and chasing. 

My theory is that as you increase the training and interactive exercise with the dog, the bond will increase, hopefully to the point where he will yield to your commands. 

And instead of giving him an ambiguous command, like MOVE, which means to just get out of your way, you can use commands that are more specific, like, FIND HEEL, or GO TO YOUR PLACE. It is kind like the difference between telling your dog to CUT THAT OUT, or telling your dog to COME, SIT, DOWN, STAY. 

Anyhow, good luck with your dog. I give you a lot of credit for working with him as he seems like a bit of a puzzle. I think though, that we learn the most from the difficult ones than we do from the easy ones.

ETA: I think a lot more weight is given to the whole furniture thing, than is merited, but what do I know?


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## Germanshepherdlova

I have been Googling trying to find it but I am coming up with nothing. Now I am wondering if I confused the video and maybe it wasn't the Monks but I could swear it was on their video. I was so desperate for help at the time when it was becoming obvious quickly that my dog had problems that I went and got every dog training book and video that I could get my hands on and I rented them from the library in my city and surrounding cities and now I can't find my source.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I have been Googling trying to find it but I am coming up with nothing. Now I am wondering if I confused the video and maybe it wasn't the Monks but I could swear it was on their video. I was so desperate for help at the time when it was becoming obvious quickly that my dog had problems that I went and got every dog training book and video that I could get my hands on and I rented them from the library in my city and surrounding cities and now I can't find my source.


The Monks withdrew a lot of the methods that they used to promote, specifically alpha-rolling and some of their puppy techniques. That may be why you can't find it.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> The Monks withdrew a lot of the methods that they used to promote, specifically alpha-rolling and some of their puppy techniques. That may be why you can't find it.


I think that is what happened because I rented the video about 2 years and eight months ago and even then the video was one of their older ones. And I rented it 2 cities away so I don't really want to drive out there and see if they still have it just to prove a point here. But I am 99.9% sure that it was the Monks that displayed this in their video and I was following each step and pausing the video when my dog attacked me at the muzzle part of the test. Thanks for mentioning that because I was dumbfounded when I couldn't find anything about it on the internet.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

They switched/second edition was in 2002 so I would not be surprised that they might have an older edition. 

I still like my idea  just because I think this is a dog that you need to go backwards with, restart the relationship, and allow him to relax and trust you before you go forward. You can still be firm, and eventually make things less enjoyable/more dry/straightforward, but for now, I'd be acting more like I do with a puppy, which means limits, but that wide eyed open to learning, experience. 

A little restart.


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## selzer

I am with Jean on this. 

My parents' dog, Cujo, has taken to lying in the middle of the walk way, and it flips my dad out. Mom says just walk over or around him, which I do, because that is what she wants. The dog is taking pain killers for the shattered elbow, and is on other drugs, so we cut him some slack. He is NOT dominant. 

I must admit though, that rustling a popcorn or potato chip bag anywhere in the house will get him off his rusty dusty to investigate, so he CAN move when he wants to. Increasing walks and training is really not an option though with him as he is has some health/structural issues.


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## Jax08

For safety's sake, until you teach him that move means move, how about putting a gate up so he can not go up the stairs and block you at the top? I think that is just a dangerous situation, especially if you have your hands full.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Jax, you are right-I have a baby gate that has a door on it that opens easily on my lower staircase to keep the cats and dogs separate so I am going to have to buy one for the upstairs as well. If not I just may break my neck or something if I actually do fall. 

Here is the update for the day-he behaved like an angel today. I didn't have to try any of the new training ideas. He moved out of my way and even came in from outside on the first call. He didn't even run out into the garage when I opened the door to come inside the house. He has been in a calm mood-and I am so glad because I really needed a break from his recent behavior. Heck, I forgot to set my alarm clock last night and so this morning it was supposed to go off at 7:15 and of course it didn't but at 7:16 Brutus started barking at me to get up so thanks to him I nor the kids were late. I am telling you when you catch him in the right mood he can be awesome!


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## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> I am with Jean on this.
> 
> My parents' dog, Cujo, has taken to lying in the middle of the walk way, and it flips my dad out. Mom says just walk over or around him, which I do, because that is what she wants. The dog is taking pain killers for the shattered elbow, and is on other drugs, so we cut him some slack. He is NOT dominant.
> 
> I must admit though, that rustling a popcorn or potato chip bag anywhere in the house will get him off his rusty dusty to investigate, so he CAN move when he wants to. Increasing walks and training is really not an option though with him as he is has some health/structural issues.


I am really bad at remembering names so I have to ask this :blush: Who is Jean?


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## msvette2u

Mind Games is not contrary to what Jean is suggesting.


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> Mind Games is not contrary to what Jean is suggesting.


But I don't know what Jean is suggesting because I don't know which person here is Jean!


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## msvette2u

JeanKBBB....above


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## Germanshepherdlova

Oh-duh! I always read her name as B Mann for some reason I skipped over the Jean part! lol


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## selzer

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> They switched/second edition was in 2002 so I would not be surprised that they might have an older edition.
> *
> I still like my idea  just because I think this is a dog that you need to go backwards with, restart the relationship, and allow him to relax and trust you before you go forward. You can still be firm, and eventually make things less enjoyable/more dry/straightforward, but for now, I'd be acting more like I do with a puppy, which means limits, but that wide eyed open to learning, experience.
> 
> A little restart.*


 

This was the post I was agreeing with.


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## Germanshepherdlova

TBH, I am pretty confused right now. I have people who's opinions I respect on one side saying to throw a ball or offer a treat to get him to move. Then on the other side I have people who's opinions I also hold in high regard saying not to give him treats to just put a tab on him and move him-to basically make him mind. Good thing he had a good day today because now I am going to have to sleep on this and decide which way to go with him.


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## Jax08

Maybe it will be a combination of both!


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## msvette2u

There is no reason you cannot do it both ways. Or try one and then the other to see which works best.
I'd incorporate Mind Games no matter which way you go.
Mind Games, the dog is on a leash and you're basically taking him with you - you're removing his choice to move or not. It's not a "hands on" approach (such as a roll) and the leash is doing the work.


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> A very short leash. You can use a dollar store leash and cut off all but 5" of it. Moving him around throughout the day incorporates some of "Mind Games". I like just leashing them to me (my daughter does this with Ruger actually) and dragging them around for a while.
> ************************ Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> 
> Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!
> 
> Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.
> 
> Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.
> 
> Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!
> 
> Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.
> 
> At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.
> 
> If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!
> 
> Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!
> 
> Dogs sometimes use urination and defecation to mark their own territories. Some males are particularly persistent about urine marking as many places as possible (some bitches do this as well). I call this “pee-mail”--dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine. Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.
> 
> Urine marking is different from regular urination--the dog sniffs something (often a vertical object or a place where another dog has peed), then moves forward a little and sprinkles that place with a few drops of urine.
> 
> If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.
> 
> Mind Game #4: Patience!
> 
> Dogs that are overly pushy and dogs that are too fearful share one important personality trait: they tend to be impatient. They move, act and make decisions too quickly. Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.
> 
> First teach your dog to do a down. Then put him on leash, have him do a down and run the leash under your own foot. Leave your dog enough slack to lie comfortably but not enough to be comfortable sitting or standing.
> 
> If your dog gets up, just stay quiet and keep pressure on the leash. Let your dog discover how to be comfortable. Your dog will eventually relax and just hang out.
> 
> If you do this regularly, your dog will start to relax sooner and sooner.
> 
> Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!
> 
> Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority. As almost every dog could tell you, the best spots to sleep in any house are the furniture and human beds.
> 
> If you are playing Mind Games because your dog lacks respect for you, prohibit your dog from getting up on the furniture and on your bed. If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving. Don’t be harsh, just firm and matter of fact.
> 
> If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.
> 
> If your dog sneaks up on the bed with you after you fall asleep, put him in a crate or shut him out of the bedroom.
> 
> If you are playing Mind Games because your dog is fearful or anxious, it is important to get your dog out of the bedroom. British trainer John Rogerson has noted that he has never seen a case of separation anxiety in a dog that routinely sleeps outside the bedroom. I have seen a few cases of separation anxiety in dogs that didn’t sleep in the owner’s bedroom but *did* sleep with one or more other dogs. Removing the other dogs did trigger anxiety, so make sure your dog is sleeping in a room alone.
> 
> Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!
> 
> Dogs can take control of a space by lying in the middle of the traffic pattern or by lying in the doorway. Anxious dogs are trying to prevent their owner from leaving, dogs with leadership ambitions are trying to control their owner’s movement. In dog society, the lesser ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.
> 
> If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.
> 
> Don’t ask your dog to move or warn your dog that you are about to make him move. Make it your dog’s responsibility to keep an eye on you and to move as needed to accommodate you.
> 
> If you think your dog might bite you, consult a trainer or behaviorist with experience dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP! In the meantime, put a buckle or limited-slip collar on your dog and attach a houseline. Use the houseline to move your dog.
> 
> Mind Game #7: Follow the Leader!
> 
> Teaching your dog to follow you teaches your dog to keep an eye on you and to accommodate your movements. You’re an important person in your dog’s life and if he doesn’t know it, it’s time for him to learn it.
> 
> Tie your dog’s leash to your belt or around your waist for at least one hour each day. Go about your every day business without paying particular attention to your dog. Don’t warn your dog you are about to move, don’t pay attention to your dog, don’t coax him to come with you. Make it his responsibility to follow his leader (you!) around.
> 
> It’s inconvenient to do--but the more often you can do this, the faster you will see a change in your dog’s behavior.
> 
> Mind Game #8: Take Control of Your Dog’s Body!
> 
> Dogs prefer to be touched on their own terms. Some dogs want to be petted constantly and some dogs would prefer only to be handled by invitation only.
> 
> If your dog solicits petting constantly, stop all free petting. Insist that your dog earn each petting session by performing one or more commands and keep each petting session short in duration.
> 
> If your dog doesn’t enjoy being handled, make sure that you handle your dog all over every day. Make sure you can touch and examine every part of your dog’s body, including his ears and between his pads.
> 
> If it gives you more confidence in handling, wear gloves until you feel safe handling your dog. If you think there is a high probability that your dog will bite you, seek professional help!
> 
> Mind Game #9: S/he Who Owns the Most Toys Wins!
> 
> In dog society, the dog able to control the most resources is usually the highest ranked. Giving a dog lots of toys that no one else touches can give that dog a mistaken impression of his own rank in the world. Overly confident dogs can become aggressive resource guarders and overly fearful dogs feel stressed by the enormity of their responsibilities.
> 
> Pick up and put out of your dog’s reach all of the toys, including chew toys. Hold one play session per day with your dog where you bring out one toy and use it to play with your dog for 10-15 minutes.
> 
> If your dog declines to play with you, put the toy away without comment.
> 
> Mind Game #10: Daily Chores!
> 
> Remind your dog that he works for his living by holding two short daily obedience sessions. For 5-10 minutes in each session, run through all the commands your dog knows or teach him new ones.
> 
> These can be combined with hand feeding sessions.
> 
> Mind Game #11: A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body!
> 
> Dogs need physical exercise to stay physically and mentally healthy. Make sure your dog is getting 30 minutes of aerobic exercise every other day. Aerobic exercise is any exercise that makes your dog pant steadily. Depending on your dog’s size and fitness level, this can be on lead walking, jogging, road work, treadmill, retrieve games, swimming or pulling.
> 
> It’s difficult for many people to walk fast enough to give a medium or large dog aerobic exercise (any dog over about 25 pounds). If on lead walking is the only option, you can increase the ooomph factor by teaching your dog to pull a drag from a nonrestrictive harness. I start small with loops of rope and work up to motorcycle tires (depending on the size and condition of the dog). This has an added advantage for conformation people of building the dog’s rear.


Thank you for this-I am going to print this out so that I can refer to it. Regardless of which way I go with this-these are very good ideas that I am going to try with him. Some I already do but the tethering him to me daily and the patience technique I do not do but I do believe this would help him to behave better.


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## msvette2u

It's fascinating how that works. We use this technique with fosters that are unmanageable and fearful when they arrive (in small increments - starting, for instance, with outdoors/potty breaks). It helps tremendously.


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## Germanshepherdlova

msvette2u said:


> It's fascinating how that works. We use this technique with fosters that are unmanageable and fearful when they arrive (in small increments - starting, for instance, with outdoors/potty breaks). It helps tremendously.


It sounds simple but brilliant. I am quite sure that this will make a difference in his behavior.


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## Bismarck

if you're going to tether him to you, i'd suggest a european leash.

*european leash - Google Search*

very cool, where you can adjust it, and just drape it over your shoulder, there's enough room for him to lay down/sit/whatever, depending on how you adjust it.

*edit*

i forgot to ask.
how does he do on walks?
is he pulling? is he in front of you?

if he's not at your side, in a heel position, turn around 180 deg, 
just keep doing this, until he decides to walk next to you. next to your equals forward, ahead equals turn around.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Bismarck said:


> if you're going to tether him to you, i'd suggest a european leash.
> 
> *european leash - Google Search*
> 
> very cool, where you can adjust it, and just drape it over your shoulder, there's enough room for him to lay down/sit/whatever, depending on how you adjust it.


What size should I order-I was just looking through the link you provided and I have no idea what size would be appropriate.


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## Bismarck

mine is about 81 inches long.
i got mine at PetPeople, not sure if you have those in your area.
you could always go ask if they have a european leash.

but i wouldn't go beyond 90inches, unless you're really really tall.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

The reason I am suggesting going back to that puppy stage of learning is to re-set this whole relationship and base it on trust and intelligent leadership. When you read through the thread, you see that things have happened that have impacted dog and person. 

Over time, just like with a puppy, you get more direct, but initially, it's all the magic stuff of getting them to do things without them having a reason, other than to please you (and maybe sometimes get a treat, or a toy). So with a puppy, or for a new dog, I don't want something else working on them, be it collar, leash, whatever, I want them to learn to follow me because I am magical. I have hidden food, I have happy voices, I have an upbeat attitude, I am Glinda the Good Witch, who applauds them and gives them a lot of ongoing feedback on how to make me happy. Which of course they want to do, because hey, who doesn't like to please someone who is marking all the good things that you do! 

I still "make" them do things - NILIF - but I do it by working my brain very hard to set them up to succeed. 

EVERY interaction is a training one. But we don't need to treat them like hairy Skinner boxes. I think he's already picked up on your new vibe. 

It is much faster to do things "manually". But to me, in the long run, it takes a lot longer to start at step 10 when you need to be at step 1. Because you are constantly going back to try to get them with you, when, if you start at step 1, they are with you from the beginning. 

If this was a dog and person who was in a good place, relationship wise, you could start at step 5. But I truly think they need to start anew and work through some things that are stopping them before they CAN start. 

Then, once you get through that, start to tether him to you. Do it now, possibly get back into the power struggle cycle. Get through all of that first, and have a dog who is ready and willing to work with you. 

I know this is more ambiguous and "whoo-hoo" but it's the foundation of everything else. It produces the type of dog who will do something for you, that they don't want to do, or a dog who can reproduce a behavior when you are not around for someone else when they need to (think of vet offices), because you have earned that from them.


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## gewaltiger Sturm

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Question as far as carrying treats around in your pocket for training-whenever I do that my dogs can smell the treats and they both will follow me around the house and stick to me like glue-I can barely move to the left or right if they know I have a treat in my pocket-do your dogs do that if you have a treat on you?


Think a dog cant count? Put 3 treats in your pocket and give him 2


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## selzer

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> The reason I am suggesting going back to that puppy stage of learning is to re-set this whole relationship and base it on trust and intelligent leadership. When you read through the thread, you see that things have happened that have impacted dog and person.
> 
> Over time, just like with a puppy, you get more direct, but initially, it's all the magic stuff of getting them to do things without them having a reason, other than to please you (and maybe sometimes get a treat, or a toy). So with a puppy, or for a new dog, I don't want something else working on them, be it collar, leash, whatever, I want them to learn to follow me because I am magical. I have hidden food, I have happy voices, I have an upbeat attitude, I am Glinda the Good Witch, who applauds them and gives them a lot of ongoing feedback on how to make me happy. Which of course they want to do, because hey, who doesn't like to please someone who is marking all the good things that you do!
> 
> I still "make" them do things - NILIF - but I do it by working my brain very hard to set them up to succeed.
> 
> EVERY interaction is a training one. But we don't need to treat them like hairy Skinner boxes. I think he's already picked up on your new vibe.
> 
> It is much faster to do things "manually". But to me, in the long run, it takes a lot longer to start at step 10 when you need to be at step 1. Because you are constantly going back to try to get them with you, when, if you start at step 1, they are with you from the beginning.
> 
> If this was a dog and person who was in a good place, relationship wise, you could start at step 5. But I truly think they need to start anew and work through some things that are stopping them before they CAN start.
> 
> Then, once you get through that, start to tether him to you. Do it now, possibly get back into the power struggle cycle. Get through all of that first, and have a dog who is ready and willing to work with you.
> 
> I know this is more ambiguous and "whoo-hoo" but it's the foundation of everything else. It produces the type of dog who will do something for you, that they don't want to do, or a dog who can reproduce a behavior when you are not around for someone else when they need to (think of vet offices), because you have earned that from them.


I agree with everything but the Glinda part. 

They say she was a good witch right? 

Well, just think about it, first she sets the wicked witch on Dorothy and infuriates her further by putting those ruby slippers on her. 

Then she lets Dorthy go through the nasty forest and all along the dangerous yellow brick road to get help from the dude with the power in Oz (a rival to Glinda). 

The dude in Oz tells her to get rid of the WW of the W, because he doesn't want to help her either. 

Finally, after Dorothy gets rid of the WWOTW and the WOO, for her, leaving her complete power since the WWOTE is dead too, she tells Dorothy she has had the power to go home alone all the while. Nice. I figure she just did not want Dorothy around as another force to contend with. 

Sorry if it is off-topic, but I probably should put it in the controversial thread about whether or not Glinda was actually a Good witch or not. 

Sorry, this is what happens after midnight....


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## msvette2u

selzer said:


> Sorry, this is what happens after midnight....


:smack: go on to bed! 
I am too!! :rofl:


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