# 5 Litters In Less Than 2 Months???



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Is it a red flag when a breeder has 5 litters of puppies in less than 2 months?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

yes, there is no way they have enough time to properly take care of that many puppies


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I thought so


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would not purchase a pup from a breeder who had more than 2 litters at one time. 
I'd rather go with a hobby breeder who spends time with their pups to set them up to succeed, who looks at what they've produced to be sure their program is in the direction they want as far as health and temperament. 
5 litters going every which way would be very difficult to manage...even with hired help(screams commercial kennel)


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

They had 3 litters born last weekend (21 puppies and only 2 spoken for) they have 2 more litters due in a couple weeks

** comment removed by Admin**


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

How many people are caring for the dogs?

Have you seen their facilities?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I hope they find homes for all those...that is alot of pups. There is a breeder near me who constantly has many litters. Right now on their site, there are 9 listed/upcoming breedings thru August. I'm sure the facilities are nice as they charge big bucks, but I am not sure where all the pups go and what they do with the ones they can't sell.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

APBTLove said:


> How many people are caring for the dogs?
> 
> Have you seen their facilities?


This is for me, personally. 

Don't care and don't care unless they are able to provide support for each puppy and take it back over its entire lifetime, regardless. 

I would imagine being able to do that would be reduced with the number of trips through the alphabet.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have been to their home

All of the dogs are out in small kennels. They live inside a barn at night. Non of them go inside. They have alot of land though, horses and goats and chickens. Most of the adult dogs they have are not listed on their website.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Some breeders that are producing so many, take back pups per the contract and do what with them? Are their lives valued or just a problem to be put down by the breeder. 
I would be afraid to send a pup back to a commercial kennel, it would seem to me a death sentence.
The guarantee is usually "replacement"~ not helping with vet bills if a genetic defect presents.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

If anyone is interested in seeing their website please PM me


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

sounds like they just want the money!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like their bitches are all on the herd effect. 

I figure it will take one litter for the vet. One litter for the dog food. One litter for the rest of my doggy expenses. And then if I want to do this full-time, I would need a few more litters to make my house payments, and pay the utilities. 

If a breeder is breeding full-time, should they not make a salary? Is it wrong for people who spend their lives on this to make enough money to support their dogs, and themselves? 

I am not talking about puppy mills who do the absolute minimum for each animal. I am talking about people actively training, working, caring for their dogs. People that field calls from prospective buyers and customers. People that spend time and energy working with each litter, keeping them clean and doing all that needs to be done with them. 

I see no reason that people should not earn money for the work that they put into anything, dogs included. 

People want a puppy kept in super clean, sanitary conditions, with awesome parents, socialized, trained and titled dogs on the property, they want someone they can talk to anytime, they want them to be available for them, but they want to have it all and pay nothing. Because if you charge what the pup is worth, they say you are only interested in the money. 

The reason someone may have five litters coming close together is because last time, they bred just the one bitch, and it did not take. The time before, they bred just the one bitch, and it did not take. This time they bred them all in hopes that one or two would take, and they all took. We do not know. 

I do know that I can only manage two litters at once -- haven't tried it yet, but I have inside/outside kennels for two dogs, and will not breed more than two bitches to be due at any one time. 

This time I bred Babs to a dog who has been bred to many bitches and has not yet produced a litter. And I bred Heidi to the same dog I bred her to on her last heat, where she missed. I am hoping for one litter, maybe two. I may get no litters. And that is how it goes.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You need buyers for said litters and hopefully good homes. Do these breeders screen potential buyers, or just take the check and cash it? Or are some of these the ones that end up in shelters, beautiful GSD's and homeless.
I still would rather go with a small hobby breeder who does it for a hobby vs a business. If the breeding didn't take, you should still be able to pay bills and not depend on a litter of pups to do so.
A bit of profit to work your dogs in what ever venue you enjoy, earning titles and paying the vet bills. If it pays for food, great, but we all have pets and don't expect them to earn their keep other than giving us love and enjoyment of their companionship.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I would be a little iffy about breeders who do have 5 litters in 2 months.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jane, that is well and good for a wife whose husband has a good job and manages to pay all the bills leaving her home to care for the litters and dogs. 

It is ok for someone on disability or on social security. But the worker is worthy of his hire. I have worked full time and had litters, it is difficult. You have to work somewhere flexible enough to let you take vacation time if and when your bitch starts whelping. 

I had that until my company was sold, and then I lost my job. Then I worked 1.5 hours away each way, but managed a litter, just not the best I could do with socializing it, and it shows. And setting up for people to come and view puppies, They do not all want to wait until after seven or eight in the evening.

If you are going to work for less, so that you can have the flexibility that you need to have, you should be compensated. If you want to do this full time, as puppy buyers prefer, then you have to charge them a decent amount and have a number of pups. 

I know another guy out here that lost his job as well. Instead of choosing the best dogs and increasing the price to reflect that, he diversified to have whatever they want, bi colors, sables, working, show, American, and is having more litters, selling them cheaper and getting them gone quicker. 

Frankly, the quicker you sell them, the cheaper they are. One vet visit is certainly cheaper than two or three, less food, etc. 

And as for the woman who has a husband... Well, if they did their taxes and found that she spent 19K on her hobby last year (not including in home office and milage), I think that he would either put the stopper on the works or demand she up the price. 

While we all have pets, we are not all risking our pets well-being, and show carreers to have puppies. Heidi has two legs to her RA. I wanted to finish her at the specialty in May, but now, I will try to get her finished in August or December depending on whether or not she has a litter. That should be compensated for as well. 

If people are taking good care of the animals, then I will not put a number on how many they can keep or how many litters they can care for. 

One thing is certain, having a website means that people are going to look at it and notice every time you blow a fart and wonder if that means you are a puppy mill, or if that is a red flag. It is almost as though it is a rite of passage to be able to say, I got my dog from a BYB or a puppy mill. 

I am sorry, but if you are happy with your pup and your breeder has lived up to her end of the bargain, then leave her be and stop trying to pick her apart. 

If I did feel that the breeder I went with was a BYB or a puppy mill, I would be pretty embarrassed that I did not do my homework, and do better next time.


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Well said, selzer.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

the answer to your question is yes, imho.

this is for me only, it's my opinion and i know many people do not agree with it.

i have a huge problem with *making a living* by selling living beings. where the food you put in your mouth and the roof you put over your head and the bills you must pay *depend* upon selling another living being. the potential for conflict of interest is just too great.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Another problem is that people do not want to hear you have never had a litter before, or that you have had just one. Then you are not experienced. No one wants to buy your puppies because you do not know what you are doing and do not have a name for yourself. You are certainly not going to get serious buyers. 

People WANT it all. They want you to have one or two bitches, not to breed them every cycle, not to breed them until they are titled, and screened, not to breed them near Christmas, not to breed them at all really. But they also want you to have a list of happy customers. 

I don't know. There is no way to please everyone, so we must do the best we can with what we have. 

Right now, my one litter per year, and hopefully one more is certainly not going to even cover the costs of my dogs, but maybe it will allow me to tread water for another year.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Sue, I want to say I totally get what your saying.

I just wanted to add that I honestly dont think they have 5 litters because some of their bitches missed, I looked at their site and I really gotta say it wasn't very good.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> i still would rather go with a small hobby breeder who does it for a hobby vs a business


amen!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would rather go with a small breeder. One who works and trains their own dogs. One that health screens their dogs. One that is active in a local club. One that has experience and connections and is trying to work with the best structure and pedigrees. One that is committed to working with the puppies. One that has been in the breed long enough to know the dogs, and know a LOT about raising them. One who has a plan that does not necessarily start and end with their current pets. 

You can call this person a small commercial breeder or a larger hobbyist.

I do not think you can get all of that with someone with two or three bitches.

Sometimes, I think hobbyists come and go, and leave nothing behind them. So long as they do no harm, I suppose that is fine, but I like to think that maybe it is better to go with someone who is here for the longer haul.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Sometimes, I think hobbyists come and go, and leave nothing behind them. So long as they do no harm, I suppose that is fine, but I like to think that maybe it is better to go with someone who is here for the longer haul.


I would rather see a person or couple with two dogs that they've loved, lived with, worked, titled, and health checked, produce one litter, decide breeding is not for them, and leave it at that.

As opposed to the (many) people who have many dogs that live outside in kennels, receive minimal attention from their owners (basic feeding, brushing, sort of attention), have never had any training beyond maybe learning to sit and lay down, and have never seen a vet exam table for hip/elbow x-rays. Then those people breed their many bitches to their several studs and produce litter upon litter of puppies. 

I am not sure the second is the sort of legacy I would be comfortable with.



> I know another guy out here that lost his job as well. Instead of choosing the best dogs and increasing the price to reflect that, he diversified to have whatever they want, bi colors, sables, working, show, American, and is having more litters, selling them cheaper and getting them gone quicker.


This paragraph just bothers me. Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying, if people cannot continue their breeding program in a responsible way, it's just fine for them to breed left and right, maybe without the necessary training and titling and health checking because there are people out there who will buy, and that's a way for the breeder to make money and live off breeding dogs? Is that right? I would not want a breeder like this, who "diversifies" (breeds willy-nilly to produce more litters). If someone cannot afford to breed responsibly, maybe they are in the wrong line of business? Maybe they should try to find a job that doesn't involve bringing hundreds of puppies into the world. JMHO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that people believe that if you have more than a couple of dogs, you never bother to take them anywhere, train them, take them to the vet, work with them or anything. 

I have nine dogs. Rush has seven certificates of sets of classes he has completed. Two more sets of classes had obedience judging sheets. And many other advanced classes did not have any final paperwork. In four years, he has been through more classes, been to more shows, been to more places, done more things, and accomplished more that the vast majority of pet owners do with their dogs. 

One of nine. All of my dogs have had a similar background, and every class and every show, and every trip away from home was done by me. 

I have other friends who breed dogs, they are not having one litter out of their bitch -- what use is that? They have a plan and are working toward a goal. They have more dogs than I do, and they do as much if not more with their dogs than I do. 

I think that people get the idea that anyone traveling faster than they are are going too fast and anyone going slower is going too slow. The same is true about their dogs. Anyone with more dogs than they have cannot possibly be doing much with them. 

My parents have one dog. He has never been to classes. He has never been taken outside the home for socialization. He goes to the vet, and when I can do it, he goes out for grooming. That is it. He is a pet. My dad walks him maybe once a month. He is loved. He lives as a member of the family. He is content. And so are mine.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm OK with two litters at once if the breeder has the time, facilities, and is experienced. Sometimes it can be a benefit if there is a singleton puppy, or if one mother gets mastitis or is not producing milk then you have a surrogate available. I've seen two litters at once that were smaller in number total than one large litter. But 3, 4, 5.... I don't know. Part of why I'm willing to pay a higher price to a good breeder is because I support that BREEDER in their knowledge, I am not willing to pay so a "staff" person can intermittently check in on dogs in kennels.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> I would rather see a person or couple with two dogs that they've loved, lived with, worked, titled, and health checked, produce one litter, decide breeding is not for them, and leave it at that.
> 
> As opposed to the (many) people who have many dogs that live outside in kennels, receive minimal attention from their owners (basic feeding, brushing, sort of attention), have never had any training beyond maybe learning to sit and lay down, and have never seen a vet exam table for hip/elbow x-rays. Then those people breed their many bitches to their several studs and produce litter upon litter of puppies.
> 
> ...


I agree. I would go to a breeder that has a steady job that makes good money. I would not go to a breeder that lives off the profit from its dog. If they have 1-2 litters a year, then thats good. anymore, is too much.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I agree. I would go to a breeder that has a steady job that makes good money. I would not go to a breeder that lives off the profit from its dog. If they have 1-2 litters a year, then thats good. anymore, is too much.


I wouldn't go so far as to discard a breeder who breeds more than 2 litters a year! If they have two litters at once, fine. As Lies stated some litters are small and some bitches go into heat at the same time. So breeders may plan this ahead of time.
Breeding back to back heat cycles for profit would not be right as I would want the breeder to assess what they have produced already before breeding the female again. 
If I see repeat breedings and how the pups have turned out that is a huge plus!

We all have a choice where we buy our puppies, research is free...it should be a no brainer to _not_ go with a breeder who has 5 litters planned in such a short period of time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd rather not limit myself based on arbitrary numbers. There are people who I'd consider buying a dog from if they bred 6 litters a year and people I'd never consider buying a dog from if the bred 1 litter every 3 years. I won't write someone off simply because of how many dogs they have, how often they are bred, how many litters....it's more the overall picture based on interactions with the breeder, their philosophy and goals, how the dogs are trained and raised, why they chose the matings that they did, etc. In my experience, breeders have either never had 5+ litters at once (going back to the original post) or they do but everything else about them put me off to their breeding program.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I guess you have to trust your breeder. Some people should never breed ANY dog and one litter is WAY too much. Other can have more than one litter at a time and do a great job with them. 

Five litters in two months is not the same as five on the ground at once. I would find it difficult because I would be having people come in to see puppies while another bitch has a brand new litter on the ground -- that is a bit dangerous and stressful, certainly in my set up. 

But to say one or two litters in a year, otherwise that is too much, well, that is placing every breeder into the same mold and trusting that all of them cannot possibly manage more than two litters properly. 

That is similar to saying that one dog is ok, two is too many, anyone who has more than two is a hoarder and is not taking care of them properly. Some people should have no dogs, other can take care of a pack of dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What Lies said, great post.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Liesje said:


> In my experience, breeders have either never had 5+ litters at once (going back to the original post) or they do but everything else about them put me off to their breeding program.


To clarify, I meant, in my experience puppy shopping.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I think that people believe that if you have more than a couple of dogs, you never bother to take them anywhere, train them, take them to the vet, work with them or anything.


I am not saying that there are no exceptions to the rule. However, the reason people "believe" that most breeders who have more than a couple of dogs do nothing with their dogs except breed them, is because it's true. The majority of people with 9+ dogs that have litters on the ground several at a time or every other month are not responsible breeders, they're running a production line for profit.

Personally, I do not believe that someone with 10 or more dogs - and even many people with less dogs - has the time to adequately care for them, spend time with them, and train with them, if they are also working a full-time job. I would be very leery of supporting a breeder with that many dogs plus litters because I would not be comfortable that the dogs and puppies are getting the necessary socialization and time.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't mean 2 litters at one time and thats it. I meant one 1 litter maybe on year(first time with 2 certain dogs) or 2 litters(dogs that already produced good litters in the past.)

I agree with Abby's post up above.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i cannot fathom having 9+ dogs. my five are a full time job. it's almost 4:30 in the morning here in michigan and i'm still not done for the night. one is just home from acl surgery, has a fentanyl patch and hasn't urinated since i picked him up today (which took four hours), so we have to "try" every two hours, one is late for her nightly round of eye meds and i just noticed she now has something going on with her ear, two still haven't been out for "last call", one has a big mouth whenever he hears the slightest noise and gets all the rest of them going, except thankfully the one with he patch who is uncharacteristically quiet tonight, thank goodness. just folded the last load of their bedding and vacuumed up the food the bird throws out of the cage so they don't eat it. and i still have to unload the dishwasher, load their bowls so they're ready for tomorrow's breakfast, and clean up the kitchen. and if the one who had surgery doesn't pee by morning i'll have to be up at 8 to go to the vet and have his bladder expressed. i may not make it to bed at all tonight, fortunately i am retired so going to "work" is not an issue. if i had 9 that fentanyl patch would be on ME.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ya know... reading this we used to be producers then. BUT my parents didn't have a fulltime job. They've been out there EVERY FRICKIN day, training dogs, socialzing them and travelling from one competition to another and as some of you know it is a VERY reputable kennel. So how comes that every time there is a breeder (without knowing the name) everybody suspects that it is a producer and BYB?

We've sometimes had 20+ dogs (including litters) and still managed it to take care of all of them, including finding a good home. 

Not every breeder with 9+ dogs is a producer. All it takes is two litters (8-10 puppies per litter) and you cross the 20 dogs mark. 

If you don't do anything else, than you can take care of the dogs. 

It's not like you are totally alone in it. If you are a reputable breeder you have fellow GSD friends and lovers that help you raising puppies, training them, taking them out. You are NEVER alone in taking care of them. You literally have your own team at hand. 

BUT we never had five litters at a time.. 
Three litters was the most if I remember right and that didn't haven very often.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

katieliz said:


> i cannot fathom having 9+ dogs. my five are a full time job. it's almost 4:30 in the morning here in michigan and i'm still not done for the night. one is just home from acl surgery, has a fentanyl patch and hasn't urinated since i picked him up today (which took four hours), so we have to "try" every two hours, one is late for her nightly round of eye meds and i just noticed she now has something going on with her ear, two still haven't been out for "last call", one has a big mouth whenever he hears the slightest noise and gets all the rest of them going, except thankfully the one with he patch who is uncharacteristically quiet tonight, thank goodness. just folded the last load of their bedding and vacuumed up the food the bird throws out of the cage so they don't eat it. and i still have to unload the dishwasher, load their bowls so they're ready for tomorrow's breakfast, and clean up the kitchen. and if the one who had surgery doesn't pee by morning i'll have to be up at 8 to go to the vet and have his bladder expressed. i may not make it to bed at all tonight, fortunately i am retired so going to "work" is not an issue. if i had 9 that fentanyl patch would be on ME.


OMG!!!!!!! And I find having 1x 6 month old pup, 2x 14 year old cats and being my partners full time carer tough and exhausting! Big pat on the back to you and I hope your boy managed to empty his bladder and is doing well


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Ya know... reading this we used to be producers then. BUT my parents didn't have a fulltime job. They've been out there EVERY FRICKIN day, training dogs, socialzing them and travelling from one competition to another and as some of you know it is a VERY reputable kennel. So how comes that every time there is a breeder (without knowing the name) everybody suspects that it is a producer and BYB?
> 
> We've sometimes had 20+ dogs (including litters) and still managed it to take care of all of them, including finding a good home.
> 
> ...


You are in Germany where the GSD breeders/clubs support system is much larger and you have to have the dogs titled and DNA'd before even breeding. 
Much different than a farm who pumps out litter after litter without screening their buyers and no one calling them out for thier practices.

Katieliz, I hope things settle down for you and your pack, and they heal quickly!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I wasn't screened. I went down there and picked up Sinister. No questions asked.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

These days there is such a strong anti-breeder tone on fourms/e-mail lists these days, even among people who all admire the same breed of dog. Anyone with "too many litters" must be some kinda puppy mill and anyone with "too many dogs" can't be taking proper care of them. Funny thing is, historically the most influential breeders tend to be ones who breed multiple litters. Most of us have larger scale breeders to thank for our dogs in some way or another. If not directly, through dogs in the pedigree of our dogs. And certainly, our dogs are the in some way result of people who "have too many dogs", since most breeders do tend to own more than just a couple dogs.

Everyone's situation is different. Just because you (general) couldn't care for more than X number of dogs or couldn't imagine having more than one litter at a time doesn't mean that everyone's situation is the same as your's. I have a pack of dogs and have for a long time. Four people live here and everyone helps care for the dogs. I have certainly had over 10 dogs here - either with puppies that I was still looking to place or watching dogs for friends. My dogs aren't all accomplished performance or show dogs but they are all well cared for pets. They all are fed raw food, live in the house, get plenty of outdoor play time and they are all worked with in some way (I have agility equipment here and they all practice, even just for fun). I have always worked at dog places, which means I can take dogs and my puppies to work with me, so having enough time to socialize them has never been an issue for me. Still I don't have the set up or space to raise more than one litter at a time. That doesn't mean I can't imagine anyone being able to raise more than one litter at a time though - other people certainly have different lifestyles, different set ups, more room and other factors that might make raising two litters at once within reason. 

I suspect the point of this thread, like several of the OP's threads is to discredit Sinister's breeder. It is pretty obvious that the OP is having some "buyer's remorse" and wants justification from others on how they feel. I have to agree with who ever suggested that the time to have done research was prior to purchasing your puppy. If you are not happy with the dog you bought and he doesn't suit your needs, return him or rehome him. If you are happy with him, enjoy him and next time, try to find a breeder who you feel is more suitable for your needs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

something else to consider,,when one female goes into heat, it tends to throw the others in heat to, some breeders will breed those females and some take, some dont', if they all take, well ya got a bunch of puppies..certainly doesn't put them at puppy mill status in my opinion


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There is big business in dog breeding in Germany ( and other places too) and some are beginning to point out this departure from hobby breeding and to the best of their ability express concern. It can be big business and money commands power, though.

www.gsd-legends.eu/Varia/DSH-WELPEN-Top-100.xlsx


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What some of you are saying that you prefer are BYBs. People who have just one litter out of a bitch and then they are done. That is a BYB, not a puppy mill, but someone who may love her bitch, and care for her dogs, may health screen them, may title them, may screen the new owners, and the whole nine yards, but they are NOT breeding to maintain the breed. They are not breeding to improve their lines. That in many people's opinion is still a BYB. 

Whether you want just one litter to experience, puppies, or to get a pup out of your bitch, or to get some return on your investment, it comes down to the same thing really, it is not the best reason to breed dogs, which will have many calling you a BYB. 

A great many of these people who wanted just one litter, are ill prepared for the cost, the room it requires, and the work it takes. Some of these people bail and leave their puppies in shelters or rescues. 

Those that do make it to week eight, are unprepared by the lack of enthusiasm for their dogs. They advertise the litter and screen the buyers, and start out with great intentions, but when week 14 rolls around and they still have four or five, they start panicking. Because they do not have any contacts, and they do not have any idea what they are doing, they are much more likely to sell the puppies very cheap and get them into the wrong hands, or to give up completely, giving them away, or dumping them. 

You certainly do not have to have multiple litters at once to be a decent breeder, but you cannot possibly be a reputable breeder having just one. It runs through everyone's mind to want a litter our of their pedigreed dog. Wanting to have just one litter is NEVER an ok reason to breed, regardless to what your bitch has accomplished and what hoops she has gone through. Wanting one litter out of her, and then if there is something credible to work with out of that litter -- well that is another story.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I do not want a BYB. I want someone who takes pride in their dogs and the breed. They health test them, care, and feed them. Train them, socialize. Want to help bring good pups into good homes and make sure their buyers are satisfied and the puppies are good hands.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And if they do that, if they take pride in their dogs and the breed, they will not just be breeding for one litter. And if they do that for all of their dogs, it should not matter how many dogs they have. 

There are people out there that can work 60-80 hours a week for years -- that is not me, not at a job. I can do it for a while, but then I need some 40 hour weeks. But that does not mean that someone else cannot do it. Just because some people find one puppy an enormous task, another person might find adding a puppy no problem at all. 

What I am saying is that we shouldn't go by numbers, but by the care that the dogs ARE receiving, not what we THINK they can't possibly be receiving.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

But if the person is living off the money their dog's litters brings is just wrong.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why?

Are you a Vegan. If you are a Vegan, than you are not supporting anyone who is living off the selling of live beasts. Otherwise you are. 

People who work wholly at anything should be compensated for it. 

There is nothing wrong with making money off of dogs. There is plenty wrong with treating animals cruelly. For one to be true, the other does not have to be true. 

The making of money is not the evil. But letting the animals suffer is because of it is. If the animals are treated properly, then I see no reason that people should not make money off of the puppies.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ok, so if you have 5 litters in 2 months are the odds there that you can find wonderful homes for all those pups? Or are you adding to the burden of shelters in about 5 months when the cute puppy stage wears off and the owner can't handle the dog that pup has grown into because the breeder has done such a wonderful job screening potential owners. 

I looked at the website of the OP's reason for this thread, and the pics of the females/pups in the whelpbox was saddening...the breeder seems focused on the adult parents weight more than anything.
The breedings seem to be matched up to whatever seems to work at the time. 
But its all good....


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What I am wondering about this thread is, how much of it is based on fact vs beliefs.

Lets take the Hobby breeder is not breeding for money theory. Lets just say you are a "hobby breeder" and produce three litters a year. You average about 8 pups in each litter and sell the pups for $1800.00. That's $43,200 per year. Now, for some people, that is a salary for a full time job. If you are simply a "hobby breeder", you have minimal costs and therefore your business...(and it is a business whether anyone wants to admit it or not),....is more profitable. If you keep more dogs, you have a higher overhead and of course more labor. Why have that overhead and headache when you can make that kind of money with minimal work? The best breeders I know are always keeping dogs back to look at what they are producing and that requires lots of work and lots of expense. This is kind of silly with this idea that someone who doesn't breed much is better suited to do it. They could be as careless and unethical as any large breeder who chooses to operate that way. 

Someone is going to have to convince me that small breeders are somehow more capable of breeding better dogs than the bigger kennels. How do you know this? Where is your proof? The best European Kennels are breeding LOTS of dogs and most people here will tell you those are good dogs. They don't know THAT for sure either but that is what is said. That is a rather large contradiction in the theories being presented in this thread. 

As for numbers of dogs. I have more than nine dogs. Some of them stay in kennels. I don't work for anyone but myself now , so, I have the time to be out with them and almost all of them I am working with in some capacity. Now , lets think a minute about the hobby breeders who work a job. Are they at home with their dogs while they are working? Uh no, not usually. Most people are gone for about nine to ten hours a day when they have that full time job and when they get home, they are tried. Are they spending the rest of their time with their dogs? I doubt it. Same with pets in homes, they are there in the backyard waiting for you and chances are, they are MUCH more bored than the dogs I have here at my kennel. Yeah, they might get to sleep on the bed but if a dog has a comfortable place in a kennel at night, there is not a whole lot of difference in how they sleep. I used to work a job and breed dogs at the same time. I know how long I was gone each day and what I felt like when I got home. Yes, I trained my dogs a few times a week but I know the dogs I have now are getting more attention and more of my time than those dogs did and I had fewer dogs then.

With VERY few exceptions, if you have a dog business you cannot simply breed dogs and make a living. I learned this years ago when I worked at a kennel. The people who owned that kennel had some of the best dogs in the country, owned two kennel locations and had bloodlines no one else had. Did they sell lots of dogs? Yes. I am in Los Angeles, big population here. Was that their sole income ? NO. I remember having the conversation with the owner at the time and she said what I am going to say now. You have to do three things if you want to earn enough to live running a dog business. That means board, train and breed dogs in that order. Breeding is not a necessity and anyone with a business brain would never rely on dog breeding to pay the mortgage. That would be a recipe for disaster. If the breeders I worked for were still in business, I am sure the people here would be picking them apart also. However, they brought some of the better dogs into this country and they produced some fabulous working dogs. They kept dogs back to see what they produced and that required that they hire someone like me, ( and a few others), to help them. I learned more from those people than I did from anyone else as far as dogs and breeding goes. The woman is still breeding and she has better dogs than almost all of the GSDs I see nowadays. 

We have some really big kennels here in the US who advertise in Dog World etc and most are very critical of that. However, we also have some very astute hobby breeders who are doing a great job of marketing in ways that doesn't cost them a penny. Very few people seem to notice how they are doing it however. I am not defending either "type" of breeder just trying to "keep it real" . What matters is how well cared for the animals are. It doesn't make any difference if they stay in kennels at night or if there are more than X number of dogs. LOTS of hobby breeders and even people commenting here, keep their dogs in crates or kennels. There is not much wrong with that unless the dog is not cleaned, fed and watered and gets the required amount of attention. 

I would challenge any of you to tell me what I do here with my dogs on a daily basis. Or what a hobby breeder is doing. You don't know, so, you are basing your assumptions on nothing but guesses and beliefs being passed around the internet. If the dogs are not cared for, well that is a totally different matter but that can happen with a Hobby breeder or to a single dog owned as a pet.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Excellent Post Anne.

<standing ovation>


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am standing with Betty!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with everything as well and well said  
But...the _puppies_ the breeder is producing is as important as how the breeder takes care of their dogs. 
Where are all the pups going? Does the breeder really, truely screen potential owners, ever say no to someone interested in a pup they "can't get rid of"? Do they stand behind what they are producing? 
This is where I have an issue with some of the kennels mass producing puppies. It is amazing to see all the dogs being produced(not just GSD's) and how many are in rescues and shelters. Gorgeous GSD's, ending up in shelters way too often...


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> What some of you are saying that you prefer are BYBs. People who have just one litter out of a bitch and then they are done. That is a BYB, not a puppy mill, but someone who may love her bitch, and care for her dogs, may health screen them, may title them, may screen the new owners, and the whole nine yards, but they are NOT breeding to maintain the breed.


A breeder who spends time working their dogs, showing them, titling them, health testing them, and then maybe produces one or two litters and decides to stop breeding is not a backyard breeder - it's a hobby breeder.

A backyard breeder is someone who has no idea what it means to work or title a dog, doesn't health test, doesn't know the first thing about breeding responsibly. They're someone who has dogs (usually a male and a female, or a male and several females) and decides to breed them without doing any of the things responsible breeders do. Then they sell their dogs to whomever responds first to their Craig's List ad, offering no warranties, no support, no nothing.

I would rather see people who fall into the first category breed one or two litters and then stop, instead of backyard breeders, large commercial kennels, etc. In my opinion, it's the people who breed a very limited amount of dogs and produce a very limited amount of puppies who really have the breed's best interest at heart by making sure their dogs are worthy to be bred and that they are producing quality pups, even if there are few of them and they don't make a bunch of money producing them. It's people who produce, produce, produce that hurt the breed. 

Let's face it, we don't need more production to maintain the number of GSDs in the United States - the sheer number of GSDs sitting in shelters and being offered free on anyone's local Craig's List attest to that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> Let's face it, we don't need more production to maintain the number of GSDs in the United States - the sheer number of GSDs sitting in shelters and being offered free on anyone's local Craig's List attest to that.


Maybe if you are only looking at overall numbers though. If I were to start looking for a new dog tomorrow, I might find ten GSDs available on local CL and at the shelter but choose to drive two states over to meet a breeder regarding a breeding that has not even taken place yet. On the other hand, I might not be looking for a new dog, but browsing around and see a dog available that I might give my right arm to have, again while ten other dogs are offered on CL (this happened to me recently and thank God the dog sold before I called the owner to ask about it o I'd probably be typing this with a puppy dangling from my sleeve). To be honest, availability is near the absolute bottom of the priority list. I guess I'm looking for something pretty specific, and in order to get that I'd be willing to wait several months or a year, or maybe even buy the dog before I'd planned if that's when what I'm looking for comes along. I don't mean to sound heartless but I refuse to buy/adopt animals out of guilt or based on sheer numbers. There was a time when DH and I wanted a goofy rescue dog (not saying all rescue dogs are goofy) so that is what we got. Or my cats...I'm not that picky when it comes to my cats so I get them all from rescues. But when it comes to my dogs that I train, I'm very selective. So I see it as more complex than a simple supply/demand comparison. 95% of the supply I have no interest in so they do not factor into my decisions whatsoever.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Liesje - that was exactly my point. 

The German Shepherd as a breed does not need more people who are producing puppies five litters at a time. Breeding for the sake of creating more dogs does not help "maintain the breed" (as Selzer put it) at all. Breeding for temperament and ability, being done one litter at a time, with carefully selected, trained, titled, health-checked breeding stock "maintains" and improves the breed.

When you look for a German Shepherd Dog, you look for a dog with a very specific temperament and abilities, right? Considering what the breed is *supposed* to be, it should NOT be so hard to find that you have to travel across several states to find it, or have to wait years to find it. The reason it *IS* so hard for you to find the specific kind of Shepherd you want is exactly because there are so many breeders who are simply producing for the sake of producing, instead of producing for the sake of passing on something worthwhile or improving the breed.

That was my whole point. We don't need breeders who produce for numbers, but breeders who produce for quality. We *have* numbers. Loads and loads and loads of Shepherds out there. Quality breeding ... not so much.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think alot of rescues and dogs from shelters do well in dog sports.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chris, You have no idea what I meant by "maintaining the breed."

Maintaining the breed is not breeding everything and anything to have more puppies. 

I do not like it that many people say you should not breed unless you are breeding to "improve the breed." Too many people breed for more and more extreme angles, or super high drives, off colors, super size, old style, or for some special hallmark that will give their dogs a name. This may be an improvement in their thinking, but if it moves away from the standard then they are NOT improving the breed. But the breed itself, does not need improving, people need to adhere to the standard. 

So what I mean by "maintaining the breed" is to produce dogs that are following as closely as possible to the standard, while at the same time beeding for temperament and health. It has nothing to do with numbers. It is not about making enough puppies so we stay at #2 -- that did not even cross my mind, until I read your post.

A person with one or two bitches, who wants one litter, maybe out of each IS NOT BREEDING for this purpose. There is no way. What the good breeders do is they match their bitch to the best possible dog FOR THAT BITCH, which usually does not reside in their kennel. They hold back dogs, they train and trial and health screen dogs and then they make the overall decision on whether or not this bitch should be bred. Then they have to determine what traits they need to have in the male to complement her. They have to be out there and really see a lot of dogs, that means going to shows, getting out there. People working full-time and overtime to support themselves and their dogs probably do not have the time and energy to be _that_ selective. They have to know the dogs behind their dogs, and behind the prospective mates, because it is not just that this dog has good feet or proper ear set, you have to know that he produces good feet or proper ear set, and that there is nothing behind him that is faulty in those areas. 

There are probably a whole lot more dogs in shelters and rescues from budding hobbyists and BYBs with just a few bitches, then your small commercial breeders. I think that what Vandal was saying is what I am saying but I am saying small breeders or small commercial, meaning someone who is trying to do this full-time, has a number of dogs, but not so large that they have several employees etc. 

That person with five litters in two months, may have 50 people on their waiting list. Forty of them may be repeat customers. Though, everyone who has looked at this particular breeder is not impressed. I am talking about a fictional breeder, not based on their web site. 

Also five litters may not mean 50 puppies. I have a friend who has a bitch who consistantly produces one puppy -- she is an older bitch, but that could be one of those five litters. Five litters with one of them being a singleton, is more like four litters. 

I do not know the breeders in question and have not looked at their site. I am just saying that the numbers themselves are not what we should be looking for when we look for "red flags."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Peta and HSUS and AR people have triumphed in really making the breeding of dogs in particular a henous thing. Some of the best breeders out there have more than 10 dogs in their stable. They do this job full-time and over-time. Without these people, the best of the best are gone. 

You can import dogs from Germany, yes, but they have garbage there just like we have garbage here. You have to have a good repoir with someone over there to get them to sell you the good ones. The people going over for the sieger show and to look at dogs to bring back, are not people with one or two bitches, sorry. 

People feel there is something inherently wrong in making a living off the selling of living things, I hope they are vegans. 

I help people move and never take any money for it, nobody should.

I talk to people about their problems and never take any money for it, nobody should.

I help push people out of ditches and never accept a dime for it, nobody should. 

I play the piano and have never taken any payment for it, nobody should. 

I would really like to know what is wrong with making a living, so long as you are not doing anything unethical. 

For someone who will buy dog food and NOT go grocery shopping, and will take the dog to the vet and NOT buy their own meds, why would anyone believe that person would sell a dog to someone they fear would not provide a good home, just for the money???


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think what alot of people mean when they say "Using the money they get from their dog's puppies" is they use the money for themselves such as to buy clothes, shoes, cars etc. People will pay 1k to 2k for a dog.There are some breeders who take that money from their dog and use for themselves, but there are some breeders who take that money and use it on their dogs health, food, shelter, training, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, I think that with the next puppy I sell, I am going to fill my propane tank. 

There is nothing wrong with that. For five months, I have already paid the vet 2k this year, and have been shelling out $250 every other week on dog food, whether or not I sell a puppy. So far, I have not made a profit on puppies. There is NOTHING wrong with making more than the dogs cost you in a years' time, so long as you are caring for them properly. 

If I make 10K on puppies and spend 20K on the dogs, that is no better than making 40K on puppies and spending 20K on the dogs, except that in the first scenario, the rest of what you need to pay the mortgage, and utilities, food, etc, will have to come from your full-time job, and traveling to and from, meaning very little time to actually spend with each dog. 

What is bad is when people have to lower prices to move puppies and so have more puppies to make up the difference. 

At the same time, if you run it as a buisness, and only as a business, then you would evaluate your assets and old, sick, and dogs that should not be bred, should be disposed of, sold or euthanised. If you can maintain your assets for less, with the same output -- this is what a pure business model would do. Kind of like dog food. When the company changes hands, the new managers, try to improve profits usually be paying less for ingredients and more for marketing -- that is making a living off of living things too.

I have considered boarding, but I would really worry about boarding dogs and having puppies at the same time. The more dogs that come and go, the more chance that one of them will bring something into your kennel. 

As for training professionally, well, my trainer has Leonbergers, and she has had other types of dogs down the years. She has only had one litter since I have known her (about five years). 

I think it is where your passion is. I would strangle people trying to train their dogs. I would put shock collars and prong collars on them and tell them to straighten up and fly right. I do not think I would do well at it. 

Instead of trying to make a living on training or boarding, I am going to continue to babysit my sister's kids, and I am going to expand my mother's tack shop to include dog equipment, collars, leads, maybe some agility equipment, gifty items, training items, etc. We are going through the thought process now.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I think its sad that people have to pimp out their dogs to pay their bills and send their kids to college.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I think its sad that people have to pimp out their dogs to pay their bills and send their kids to college.


How do you think full-time breeders pay their bills? 

No matter if you breed dogs, horses, cows... pigs....they will always pay for your bills once you do it full-time.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> How do you think full-time breeders pay their bills?
> 
> No matter if you breed dogs, horses, cows... pigs....they will always pay for your bills once you do it full-time.


If thats their ONLY way to pay their bills and support themselves? I am sorry but thats just wrong. Thats why you should have jobs.

People who normally breed horses, also train ride and compete, and get money from the horses they train and the competitions/races they win. If they have a training class where they train horses to race, show, dressage or they board people's horses.

But if you are living off the money that you get from your dog's puppies, its more like pimping out their dog. Its sad when someone is like this:

Relative: "Why couldn't I call you? I dialed the number and it said the phone was out of service."
Breeder:"We forgot to pay our phone bill. But we are going to pay the bill as soon as we breed our dog."

What if the dog doesn't get pregnant?The mom gets sick, the puppies are still-born?Other health complications?

Its sad thats the ONLY way you get money to buy your groceries, to pay ur phone bill, to pay your kids college fund.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> If thats their ONLY way to pay their bills and support themselves? I am sorry but thats just wrong. Thats why you should have jobs.
> 
> *People who normally breed horses, also train ride and compete, and get money from the horses they train and the competitions/races they win. If they have a training class where they train horses to race, show, dressage or they board people's horses.*
> 
> ...


That is all part of breeding Jessi. To me it is natural and part of the job description. Doesn't matter if you breed dogs or horses. Breeding, Training, Showing, Selling... that is all part of breeding and if you do that fulltime it is your job and why should you not pay your bills with it?

You need electrcity to hang up red=light lamps over the litter box. You need water to to clean the kennels and give it to the dogs... you need a phone to call in the vet... 

So what is wrong if you pay the bills by the money you earn with the dogs?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> That is all part of breeding Jessi. To me it is natural and part of the job description. Doesn't matter if you breed dogs or horses. Breeding, Training, Showing, Selling... that is all part of breeding and if you do that fulltime it is your job and why should you not pay your bills with it?
> 
> You need electrcity to hang up red=light lamps over the litter box. You need water to to clean the kennels and give it to the dogs... you need a phone to call in the vet...
> 
> So what is wrong if you pay the bills by the money you earn with the dogs?


But there are people who just breed, they don't train or anything. They just breed.

Horses have 1 baby and sometimes 2. Dogs have many puppies in one litter.Horses don't have a overpopulation issue.

The reason alot of people don't think its right to have 5 litter ins 2 months is because of the fact that so many puppies are born at once. There should be a limit on how many litters breeders should have.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> But there are people who just breed, they don't train or anything. They just breed.
> 
> Horses have 1 baby and sometimes 2. Dogs have many puppies in one litter.*Horses don't have a overpopulation issue.*
> 
> The reason alot of people don't think its right to have 5 litter ins 2 months is because of the fact that so many puppies are born at once. There should be a limit on how many litters breeders should have.


Depending what kind of breed we are talking about there is a serious overpopulation problem. Way to many people just have the filly and don't train. They just want the money... just like it's with the GSD's. Unfortunately you have that pretty much everywhere. 

You and me... we are talking about two different kind of ways of breeding. You are talking about BYB and I am talking about responsible breeding that includes everything from training to health issues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some people should not have ANY litters.
Some can manage 1 at a time.
Some can manage 2 at a time. 
Some, no doubt, can manage more. 

But who should decide? Who should make the limit of how many litters breeders should have?

If the dogs are healthy, and the conditions are acceptable, why is it anyone's business how many they have?

I train, and trial, and go to shows. Big deal. If I say that there should be a law that says you must train, trial and go to shows in order to breed, then someone else might say that the law should be that you must herd in order to breed, and another would say that the law should be that you must track in order to breed. And another will say that the law should be you must perform in free style in order to breed.

Limits are no different. People want to limit the number of dogs you can have because THEY can only manage two. Well, they may have three kids and a full-time job, they may have an elderly live-in grandparent, they may have church and club obligations that have nothing to do with dogs. Some people are so stretched that they should not own ANY dog. 

Who should make up these limits???

There ARE puppy mills, yes, breeders who do nothing but the absolute minimum, who keep animals cruelly and breed indiscriminately -- that is NOT someone who is breeding five litters in two months, try fifty. Try having 600 to 1000 bitches and breeding all of them at least two times a year. Try having them give the bitches drugs to have them come into season. 

None of us are saying that this is ok. 

But people whose life is dogs, who make EVERY decision with the dogs in mind, who are trying to make a go of doing this full time so that they can spend MORE time with their love and with everything dog. These people will be more experienced, have more knowledge of the breed, about training, about everything dog, because they have dedicated their lives to it. 

There is nothing wrong with it paying their bills.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Depending what kind of breed we are talking about there is a serious overpopulation problem. Way to many people just have the filly and don't train. They just want the money... just like it's with the GSD's. Unfortunately you have that pretty much everywhere.
> 
> You and me... we are talking about two different kind of ways of breeding. You are talking about BYB and I am talking about responsible breeding that includes everything from training to health issues.


Yes I am, but there are some people who think thats ok.

I still wouldn't buy from someone who breeds 5 litters in 2 months.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> But who should decide? Who should make the limit of how many litters breeders should have?
> 
> If the dogs are healthy, and the conditions are acceptable, why is it anyone's business how many they have?


Obviously that's the individuals (breeder) choice! 

Just as it is for the individual (buyer) to not buy from someone who has multiple litters or just one litter.. It's also an individuals choice to support an individual (breeder) based on ones own beliefs, morals..


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Obviously that's the individuals (breeder) choice!
> 
> Just as it is for the individual (buyer) to not buy from someone who has multiple litters or just one litter.. It's also an individuals choice to support an individual (breeder) based on ones own beliefs, morals..


yes especially if you are planning to buy a dog from them to start your own breeding program.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Horses don't have a overpopulation issue.


Actually there is a huge horse overpopulation issue, that has gotten even worse since horse slaughter was made illegal. And it was pretty bad with the hay shortage too, many horses were found shot and dumped because people couldn't afford to care for them, feed them, or humanely euthanize them. Horses are being shipped out of the country for slaughter now. Many people think the way to "fix" the problem of their horse not selling is to breed it, only they are breeding horses that should never have been bred and are only decreasing the value further. Then those horses end up in auction and on the trucks for slaughter... 

Its off topic, but thats just so far from the truth to think there isn't a horse overpopulation issue. Its different from dogs, since horses are more of a luxury item and you can make a poorly bred horse worth more with training. But it is still a very big problem and always has been, getting even worse with the recession, slaughter made illegal, and rising cost of hay.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I have three foster puppies right now, their mother, and 4 adults of my own (10 months to 6 yrs).

With the three foster pups, two of which are already placed prior to being ready to go home, I can not even imagine having more than one litter of pups at a time. I would go nuts and never feel like I had enough time to socialize all of them and take care of them.

Our 10 month old adopted pup just had a total hip replacement, so as it is I'm counting down the days till the puppies go home later this week! I will miss them, but they're ready to go, their families are ready for them, and I'm ready to have my sanity back a little more.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Horses have 1 baby and sometimes 2. Dogs have many puppies in one litter.Horses don't have a overpopulation issue.


Actually there is a serious horse overpopulation problem which is why so many end up in the slaughter house, and now that it's banned in America they are getting shipped to Mexico in illegal double decker cattle trailers....it's also a huge part of why the horse market for the average horse has tanked. Same with any animal, but especially with large expensive "pets." Most horses these days aren't working horses, they are pets and a very expensive hobby. When the economy tanks, hobbies frequently get cut out of the budget first. When too many people can't afford what's already out there, combined with more horses being produced every day, there's simply no where for the overstock to go.

Unfortunately because horses aren't typically housed at local shelters, there's just no where for them to go in most areas. Also consider that what can't even be given away can be sold for a few hundred dollars to the meat man who will ship them to Mexico.

Yes, there is a huge over population of horses.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Rerun, who do you foster for? I haven't fostered since I've been in Indy, and I miss it!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I will shoot you a PM.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Must be that the SV, at one time at least, saw the value of hobby over professional breeding. Certainly the founder of the breed said it should not be for a "living", but rather as a love and hobby. I believe he saw the potential detriment to the breed in business breeding.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Thursday I saw my first "free to good home" ad for a horse. all it said was gelding, references required.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Thursday I saw my first "free to good home" ad for a horse. all it said was gelding, references required.


I've seen several of those on my local Craig's List (they're in farm & garden, not pets) and many others for horses ranging from $200 to $800, on average. Horses with training and showing backgrounds are going for as low as $1200 around here.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Dainerra said:


> Thursday I saw my first "free to good home" ad for a horse. all it said was gelding, references required.


That's amazing that it was your first....they are free all over the place. Well bred horses too, going for nothing or next to nothing. It's really sad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I have a friend who has about 28 horses. All of them give aways, some old, some infirm, some mares with foals or in foal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

G-burg said:


> Obviously that's the individuals (breeder) choice!
> 
> Just as it is for the individual (buyer) to not buy from someone who has multiple litters or just one litter.. It's also an individuals choice to support an individual (breeder) based on ones own beliefs, morals..


It is not "obvious" when people are calling for limits. Limits are laws. That was what was asked for.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Samba said:


> Must be that the SV, at one time at least, saw the value of hobby over professional breeding. Certainly the founder of the breed said it should not be for a "living", but rather as a love and hobby. I believe he saw the potential detriment to the breed in business breeding.


I would like to see this quoted from his book. If it is or is not is really not the end all. He was an influential man with plenty of money, and had a lot of dogs and bred a lot of dogs. If he wanted it to be a hobby -- which is my problem with the statement, hobbies were not really something that I would expect to see in print. But for the love of the breed, certainly. 

Is there really any reason why someone should not love the work that they do that makes for them a salary too? If you do not love the breed, then trying to make a living off of it IS insane -- if you are trying to do it right. 

A shepherd's dogs support themselves by working. This dog was designed as a working dog, a dog that was not simply to be used and a pure pet. While breeding and working are very different, do those who believe it is wrong to make money on puppies, also believe it is wrong to use a shepherd to work their sheep or cattle? Or to use a dog as a guard dog, seeing eye dog, assistance dog, or police dog? 

There may be dogs in shelters and rescues, nice dogs. But these dogs will not be used to preserve and maintain the breed. If all the decent breeders folded to the incredible hate mongering that people have adopted because of AR organizations, then the breed is left to the BYBs and the puppy mills -- which includes the people who have no plan, but just want to breed their bitch just one time. I think that would not have made Max very happy either.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> A shepherd's dogs support themselves by working. This dog was designed as a working dog, a dog that was not simply to be used and a pure pet. While breeding and working are very different, do those who believe it is wrong to make money on puppies, also believe it is wrong to use a shepherd to work their sheep or cattle? Or to use a dog as a guard dog, seeing eye dog, assistance dog, or police dog?


There are many people who buy dogs from breeders just to have a pet.Whats wrong with having a well bred, loving, companion? Seeing eye dogs and assistance dogs are not only from breeders. There are many seeing eye dogs that are from shelters. My family never trained Molly or Tanner to be guard dogs nor did we get them from a breeder for this purpose. They just naturally do it.

No one said it was wrong for a shepherd to be used to work sheep or cattle or as a guard dog, or as a seeing eye dog or assistance dog or police dog.Whats wrong with having a dog as a pet?Alot of breeders breed to make great family companion dogs.

If you use the money you get from the dog to help pay for the dogs living expenses, health, training, food, shelter and such, then we are fine with that.

But if you are just using the money you get from breeding your dog to help pay for phone bills, get food on the table, buy people gifts, pay for your kids college fund, and its the only way for you to get money then we MAY have a problem.We might not, but we might.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We? Who exaclty is we? And what exactly is "just using the money..."?

Anyone who is selling puppies has used the money to pay for the dogs. If they make more than what the dogs cost them, why is that so much more wrong than selling them at all? 

We, most of us, agree that it is a bad idea to give them away. 

If the person that owns the Grand Victrix, breeds her dog to a top stud dog, but because no one should make money on dog, they do not charge a stud fee. Prior to this, the bitch and dog were checked by a vet to ensure that they did not have a serious disease or infection that would affect the other animal, but since no one should make money on dogs, the veterinarian did not charge any bill. The puppies were whelped and raised eating a top notch dog food and, but since no one should make a living off of dogs, it was donated by the dog food company that exists because volunteers donate the ingredients and their time to produce it.

And the puppies are then donated to their new owners because we would not want to make money on them. 

And the grass grew, and the puppy dog wagged its tail, and we all lived in our yellow submarine, beneath the waves, in the sea of green. 

Without people making money off of pets, then you would have NO dog food companies, no veterinarians, no pet stores, and the list goes on and on and on. There is nothing wrong with a business, or with money, even if you make money by selling dogs. _That _is not evil. It is not evil to pay your bills from money that you got from selling a puppy.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> We? Who exaclty is we? And what exactly is "just using the money..."?
> 
> Anyone who is selling puppies has used the money to pay for the dogs. If they make more than what the dogs cost them, why is that so much more wrong than selling them at all?
> 
> ...


I never meant YOU as you. I meant it as in general.

I am not saying you shouldn't make money off your dogs at all!

I am saying if someone is using the money they make off their dogs for their personal needs then it can be a problem with some people.

Let's say a family has a daughter heading to college(college is NOT cheap) and they need some money to help pay for their daughter.So they decide to breed their dog and sell the puppies to help pay for the girls college fund.

Now lets have a person who has a very well bred female GSD, her dog has titled parents and the dog is also titled, health tested. Has no hip problems, health cleared. The person has decided to breed her dog to a stud dog who is also health tested and passed, titled, good bloodlines, titled parents and titled himself. The person has enough money already invested in breeding. So she breeds her dog to the stud dog. They have great looking pups. The offspring are healthy and are trained and socialized and ready to go to their future homes.

The second choice is something I would go for. The first choice, not so much.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

so what you are saying is that if your motivation for breeding and selling puppies is to purchase something, that is not ok. I agree. 

So the puppies need to be trained in order to go to their future homes? I am in trouble. 

I think that if you go to a career breeder, someone who has been breeding successfully, and has excellent dogs, all trained, all socialized, all health screened. And this person is known within canine circles, at all-breed clubs, training clubs, and specialty clubs, knows bloodlines, genetics, breedings that worked and those that did not, nutrician, health problems, training, etc. This person literally spends a lifetime, knowing the breed inside and out, both in America and Germany. 

It would be better in your opinion to go with someone who has a couple of pets and put them together because they are not trying to make a living on their dogs?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I never considered pimping the pup to pay tuition. Hmmmm. I suppose it is better than being a call-girl -- heard of that. 

Jessie, are you being faced with the high cost of college looming in the future? I went with student loans, yep, still paying them off. The idea of breeding dogs to pay for tuition and books -- well, it is creative.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> I never considered pimping the pup to pay tuition. Hmmmm. I suppose it is better than being a call-girl -- heard of that.
> 
> Jessie, are you being faced with the high cost of college looming in the future? I went with student loans, yep, still paying them off. The idea of breeding dogs to pay for tuition and books -- well, it is creative.


About the college thing, that actually is from someone who posted a question about "Female dogs being in heat", and was wondering about it because her parents were thinking about breeding their lab and selling the puppies to help pay for the girls brother and the girl's college fund.

I am good with college money, I applied for financial aid and got grants.

I really don't have a problem with people breeding and getting money from it, I just hope and think they should use it responsibly. Especially if you are a professional breeder. 

Plus, I would never breed a dog for my college tuition.I would never forgive myself. I would apply for a scholarship for having a GSD. Plus, my girl is spayed.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think Jessie is talking about people who say "I need money for XYZ. I have a female dog. I will sell puppies for money."
I agree that is bad. It's not bad that they are going to spend the money on XYZ. It's bad because they aren't doing any of the legwork to be a good breeder.

Now, if your dogs ARE your job, then yes, selling puppies will pay your bills. Of course, then you are doing all the right things by your dogs. You train, title, work, test, feed, etc etc etc. In that case, I don't see anything wrong. 

In the end, it has nothing to do with money or what you spend it on. It has to do with what kind of breeder you are. It doesn't matter if you have 1 litter or 4, the proof will be in the dogs that are produced.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I wanted to add another distinction that I thought of later. The line comes when you stop caring less about where the dog goes and more about if the check will clear.

I wouldn't want to support someone who will sell to the first person with $$ just so they can pay their bills.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> A shepherd's dogs support themselves by working. This dog was designed as a working dog, a dog that was not simply to be used and a pure pet.


Speaking of working dogs. I think it would be nice if more breeders actually worked their dogs in some venue, ideally something the breed was originally created for - such as herding, in the case of German Shepherds.

I am seeing, however, that a lot of breeders will put some rudimentary title on a bitch, such as a BH, and then breed to a stud that has a lot of great titles. I'm curious why people don't spend more time working and titling their bitches?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Just thought I would add a comment, I don't know the kennel,nor have I gone to the site, but some kennels may list breedings done by coówned bitches or sired by their stud but being raised elsewhere. So although 5 are listed it could be only 2 are raised at that site. Also about owning lots of dogs, well if you start with 2 or 3, and retire them and maybe keep some offspring it is easy to add up to larger numbers and at different ages needs change, so some 12+ age dogs may be quite happy with spending most of the day on the couch or bed with some short strolls. Some younger seniors might enjoy a few hours in teh kennel adn some retreieving and those strolls with the other seniors and some short training practices. Then the middle age, trained competition dogs need work, perfecting time, perhaps more kennel hours and more running/retrieving/swimming time, then the younger dogs need training, socializing, playing, but all need love first and so you can have larger numbers and still give what they need, Numbers add up when you do work and train and retire but keep the dogs forever.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

AbbyK9 said:


> I am seeing, however, that a lot of breeders will put some rudimentary title on a bitch, such as a BH, and then breed to a stud that has a lot of great titles. I'm curious why people don't spend more time working and titling their bitches?


 I think part of it has to do with the reproductive differences between dogs and bitches. Stud dogs can reproduce and continue working/trialing with a problem. For bitches, each litter takes them out of training/competition for about 4 months or so (if you show in conformation venues, it could be as long as 6 or so months before their coats are back to normal). In addition to litters, heat cycles and even false pregnancies may take bitches out of training/competitions up to 4 times a year. I'm not sure of the rules ith SchH but in AKC/UKC bitches in heat can't compete in anything but conformation. 

Obviously, there are people who put advanced titles on their bitche sthat they also breed. Although, sometimes it means the bitch isn't bred as early as the breeder hoped or that multiple breedings may not be possible. It is a lot more straightforward to train/compete with male dogs and the higher titles make them much more valuable as stud dogs. One would be pretty unlikely to find serious breeders who want to use their male if the dog only has a BH.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it is easy to sit at the computer and make up these lists of what is acceptable or unacceptable from a breeder, even assigning arbitrary numbers like how much money they can make or how many dogs can be in the kennel or how many litter per year. But once you are actively in the process of looking for dogs to buy (especially dogs potentially for breeding and/or titling) and are training and showing dogs on a weekly basis, you see it's not as simple as making a checklist with numbers and prices and salaries and titles. I just spent a weekend with a breeder who trains, shows, and handles dogs and learned many new things, especially about breeding, why breeders keep the dogs they keep and sell the dogs they sell, what he is looking for in a stud or brood bitch, etc. It's very interesting and far more valuable to me than anything I could have gathered or inferred just by looking at this person's web site and never spending a weekend with them in person.

As for bitches and titles, like Agile said there are reproductive cycles that get in the way, but also sometimes the bitch that is a great producer and an excellent brood bitch is not the bitch that is a "points dog" for trials and titles so it's pointless to keep titling and competing other than to be able to say you have the title or score. Some great dogs simply do not produce themselves or anything close and some dogs that you don't see competing or showing regularly (pick your camp) are great producers.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

It would be kinda odd seeing a pregnant female dog in a certain competition just so there can be more titles......


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> I think Jessie is talking about people who say "I need money for XYZ. I have a female dog. I will sell puppies for money."
> I agree that is bad. It's not bad that they are going to spend the money on XYZ. It's bad because they aren't doing any of the legwork to be a good breeder.
> 
> Now, if your dogs ARE your job, then yes, selling puppies will pay your bills. Of course, then you are doing all the right things by your dogs. You train, title, work, test, feed, etc etc etc. In that case, I don't see anything wrong.
> ...



Its exactly what I meant but in simpler terms.lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> It would be kinda odd seeing a pregnant female dog in a certain competition just so there can be more titles......


I think what was meant was that the dog should not be bred at all until achieving a certain level/title. I'm saying, that totally depends on the dog, what the breeder looks to accomplish, how that dog produces, and what the male brings into the equation. Also, some females are just more suited to being brood bitches (as in, they breed and take easily without a fight, they have uneventful pregnancies and deliveries, they produce adequate milk and take good care of puppies without being anxious...things like that).


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I think what was meant was that the dog should not be bred at all until achieving a certain level/title. I'm saying, that totally depends on the dog, what the breeder looks to accomplish, how that dog produces, and what the male brings into the equation. Also, some females are just more suited to being brood bitches (as in, they breed and take easily without a fight, they have uneventful pregnancies and deliveries, they produce adequate milk and take good care of puppies without being anxious...things like that).


Sometimes, they just produce awesome babies.lol


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I think what was meant was that the dog should not be bred at all until achieving a certain level/title.


That is not what I meant. I was pointing out that there are many breeders who have one or several females that they are breeding who either have only very basic titles or even no titles at all.

I know of a fair number of kennels that have several bitches that either have no titles at all or have very basic titles (BH - some don't even have that much, but only have some basic obedience titles or even just CGCs on them) and they are importing already titled males for their breeding program and breeding their one or two imported, titled males, to their stable of bitches.

I am not sure how I feel about this type of breeding. 

If the German Shepherd is a working breed, wouldn't it make sense for both the bitch and the dog to have titles? We always talk about how titles are not, in themselves, the end-all, be-all, but how the effort that is spent working toward the title tells the breeder a lot about their dogs, their good and bad qualities, etc. If a breeder has three bitches with nothing more than a CGC, how does this breeder really gain a deeper understanding of their dogs?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Or when they purchase already titled or send away bitches for titles without working them(HOT) to achieve said titles...same thing/how can they assess what they are breeding/matching based on someone else working their stock, then charging exhorborant prices because of the words "world class" or "champion bloodlines"...another thread, already been discussed, my bad!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> That is not what I meant. I was pointing out that there are many breeders who have one or several females that they are breeding who either have only very basic titles or even no titles at all.
> 
> I know of a fair number of kennels that have several bitches that either have no titles at all or have very basic titles (BH - some don't even have that much, but only have some basic obedience titles or even just CGCs on them) and they are importing already titled males for their breeding program and breeding their one or two imported, titled males, to their stable of bitches.
> 
> ...



Yea thats kinda misleading. If I Molly wasn't spayed and had CGC, then I can breed her. She doesn't even have a champion bloodline or champion parents.So it would be silly to breed her.I wouldn't even breed her anyways.

Isn't the point of titling to show you have a quality dog for breeding so they can create offspring to be like them or better?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Isn't the point of titling to show you have a quality dog for breeding so they can create offspring to be like them or better?


It depends on how the titles were achieved, and health testing is just as important.
Putting titles on dogs is to show the temperament and structure, workability, strength, etc for all, not just the ones that are deemed "breedworthy" Conformation titles alone do not do this, IMO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have recently decided that in trialing my bitch, I will look for three or four shows in a weekend. I finished Babs' latest title at the Christmas Classic, fine. I took Heidi to the Ashtabula and Grand River shows and two legs. I wanted to finish her at the Specialty, but she went in heat, fine. I bred her, now depending on whether it takes, I will either wait until August or December to finish this title. 

So she went into heat two weeks ago, mid April, bred end of April, will keep her away from shows and classes until June/July when I know whether or not she has taken. If she has, she will be kept away from shows and classes into September. In November she will go in heat again. Which means, that I can either take her to classes in September/October, or in December to get her ready for the Classic. 

If you do not try to breed them, then you are only out for three/four weeks, and if you have a good repoir with your trainer, you can substitute a different bitch in unused classes. But it is very true that there can be serious breaks in training. With a good bitch, and decent training, it can be gotten over.

This is why I am currently pushing Joy right now. Usually, just over one, they all have their CGC and RN, but I want more. My problem is that there are only so many shows within the distance that I can afford to travel. And as the little bitch has not been into heat yet, entering her into a show (if she was ready) means there is a liklyhood that she will be in heat at the time. It is not impossible, just a pain. 

And every time we take our dogs to a show, if we have a pregnant or lactating bitch we are risking her and her litter in the event that our entered bitch brings home a disease. Whether it is stupid or not, I do not worry so much about training classes, because MOST of those dogs are just pets and not around a host of other dogs. But some are. 

So it is always risky. 

During the first three/four weeks after whelping, I am very unlikely to allow any of mine to go to shows. Bringing home canine herpes can wipe out my entire litter. 

Also, females do not have an endless time frame before having litters. Yes you can wait until they are four or so to have a first litter, but the longer you wait to have a litter, the risk does go up. 

We want them to have a title, and be health screened prior to being bred, fine, but waiting until they are Schutzhund III, well, if you can do it within 2-3 years, that is fine, if it is the only bitch you are working on. 

But waiting for a dog to be four, and you decide that breeding her the heat after that desired title, would produce Christmas puppies, so you decide that is a bad time, so you wait for her next heat, at 4.5 years. Because you have never bred her, you do not know her cycle, and even with progesterone testing, you miss. Now she will be five before her first litter -- and they WILL be Christmas puppies. You go ahead, because you really want at least one litter out of her, and you know that it is worse for her to wait any longer for that first litter.

Split heats, dry heats, false pregnancies -- all of these complicate the whole thing. When your bitch was in heat four months ago, and another goes in and brings her in, and suddenly, you are rushing to the vet for vaginal cultures and brucellosis tests because you expected her to come in two months from now, and now you are making some decisions on the fly and adjusting your overall plan. 

I think it makes more sense for me to get my bitches out there in the first two years, training, going to trials, and determining by how well they do whether they should be bred, not be bred, or need another year to make a final decision on. 

So if either of my bitches have a litter on the ground in July, depending on how old the puppies are, I may not be willing to take Joy to the August show. If they are five weeks old, probably ok, if they are three weeks old, probably not. So Joy might be waiting for December as well. 

And hoping that she is not in heat then. 

I can certainly understand why bitches may have only a nominal title and temperament test.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> That is not what I meant. I was pointing out that there are many breeders who have one or several females that they are breeding who either have only very basic titles or even no titles at all.
> 
> I know of a fair number of kennels that have several bitches that either have no titles at all or have very basic titles (BH - some don't even have that much, but only have some basic obedience titles or even just CGCs on them) and they are importing already titled males for their breeding program and breeding their one or two imported, titled males, to their stable of bitches.
> 
> ...


Oh I agree, I just didn't think you (or anyone else) was suggesting to compete with pregnant dogs:



Jessiewessie99 said:


> It would be kinda odd seeing a pregnant female dog in a certain competition just so there can be more titles......



I was recently talking with someone who said they would breed an untitled female, but this kennel is breeding for their own program, looking for a specific type of dog to keep back to train, title, and breed. So if they are doing all the training on the dog, they already can see if the dog is what they want or not. It might look "bad" on the outside....but....I dunno, they're their dogs and it's their breeding program, not a large scale commercial operation. Same person was showing off a puppy of their kennel's breeding that they loved so much they would not sell for any price. It may not be what I would do but I don't have any disrespect for doing the breeding without the title. As much as I love GSDs and am always in the market, I love to see breeders that are first and foremost breeding for themselves, for what THEY plan to trial or show and keep back for breeding.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The story is not entirely told by "titled or not", is it? It take some common sense to sort out a breeders inherent abilities and knowledge and overall success.

But, some are more like a supermarket of puppies it seems.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Samba said:


> But, some are more like a supermarket of puppies it seems.


Yikes!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yep, a guy I really respected lowered his prices to move puppies, and now has put in more bitches and dogs to provide whatever customers are looking for, show lines, working lines, bi-colors, sables, blacks, black and tans, etc. 

I would rather have someone focussed on one type of dog, even mixing American and German, or show and working, but focussing on a particular type, a specific market, breeding for specific temperament and drives and workability and trying to be an expert on that type, then someone diversifying to the extent that he pleases all comers, and is not dedicated to any one type.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think that is the biggest problem with your dogs being your only source of income. At some point, at some time, there is going to be that "I HAVE to sell a puppy because I have to pay this bill." 
If you are a well-known breeder, then you likely have a waiting list of finding an approved person just means going through the list. For anyone else, then you have people calling who may not be a perfect fit for your dogs. So, you either sell to the first person with the $$ or you change your operation so that your dogs meet what the market is looking for.
Either way, you have to change your priorities as a breeder, putting more emphasis on the $$ than on the dogs themselves.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> The story is not entirely told by "titled or not", is it? It take some common sense to sort out a breeders inherent abilities and knowledge and overall success.


Definitely.



Dainerra said:


> I think that is the biggest problem with your dogs being your only source of income. At some point, at some time, there is going to be that "I HAVE to sell a puppy because I have to pay this bill."
> If you are a well-known breeder, then you likely have a waiting list of finding an approved person just means going through the list. For anyone else, then you have people calling who may not be a perfect fit for your dogs. So, you either sell to the first person with the $$ or you change your operation so that your dogs meet what the market is looking for.
> Either way, you have to change your priorities as a breeder, putting more emphasis on the $$ than on the dogs themselves.


Even BYBs and some of the large commercial kennels I don't think use dogs as the only source of income. There are many great breeders who do not really work a "normal" 9-5 office job but do things tied in with dogs/animals like run a farm, train or board horses, board and train other dogs..things that easily facilitate owning more dogs than the average person and being capable of training and breeding them on a larger scale. A lot of people do make a living off animals but even among the most terrible breeders, other than a straight up puppy mill I think it would be a challenge to find someone that sells puppies as a sole source of income. I'm not trying to defend any bad breeders but like Anne was saying earlier, the red flags are really how the dogs are treated and trained and not so much about the exact numbers of how many dogs, how many litters, and the itemization of what dollar amounts are from puppies or from other work.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

One of my neighbors sells English Bulldog puppies as her only source of income. Her boyfriend has a regular job but she has 2 intact male English Bulldogs that she uses as "stud" dogs and she keeps the litter but the owner of the female gets pick of the litter. There is a stud fee but it's only like $200 or $300 bucks I think she said? She sells her puppies for $1,600 a piece. When she has grey puppies she charges $1,800. She has 6 bully puppies right now from 2 different litters and 2 of them are grey, so she will be making around $10,000 for these 2 litters. She has puppies all year long, she "studs" her males out at the same time so she has 2 litters at her home at all times, once the litter is raised and sent to their new homes, she has 2 new litters to raise.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> I was recently talking with someone who said they would breed an untitled female, but this kennel is breeding for their own program, looking for a specific type of dog to keep back to train, title, and breed. So if they are doing all the training on the dog, they already can see if the dog is what they want or not. It might look "bad" on the outside....but....I dunno, they're their dogs and it's their breeding program, not a large scale commercial operation. Same person was showing off a puppy of their kennel's breeding that they loved so much they would not sell for any price. It may not be what I would do but I don't have any disrespect for doing the breeding without the title. As much as I love GSDs and am always in the market, I love to see breeders that are first and foremost breeding for themselves, for what THEY plan to trial or show and keep back for breeding.


Interesting statement Lies.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Regardless of how many litters a person has a one time, the thing that troubles me most is when breeders have a staff.

To me that means they have more dogs than they can handle themselves and may mean that they don't personally know each dog as well as (what I believe) they should.

It is also concerning money-wise. A staff person has to be paid a minimum wage. Then there are taxes that need to be paid, employment insurance, worker's comp premiums, health insurance, etc. That is a lot of puppies that must be sold to cover just that expense. Don't know about USA but SK minimum wage is $9.25/hr, even working a part time shift 3-4 hrs a day that's a lot of money.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

When I have hired people they sure were not taking care of my puppies. They were hosing down dog runs, doing work around here like weeding, trimming trees, painting, etc. When I worked at my friend's kennel years ago, I was certainly not in charge of puppies, I was training client dogs, hosing down runs etc. Was I allowed to play with the pups? Yes. 

As far as this idea about knowing your dogs enough. People say this stuff and yet if you asked them and they did not have the internet available to look it up, they could not tell you what the breeder should be "knowing" about their dogs.

Like I said earlier, I have a number of dogs and I know each one of them. It's pretty hard not to when you are out there with them on a daily basis. I used to manage over eighty employees at my work and I can tell you I knew each one of them really well also. Maybe not all about their personal lives but I knew what kind of temperament they had, how much stress they could handle, how much drive they possessed, etc. I had lower level managers helping me but that sure did not impede my ability to know who my employees were. It is not that difficult when you work with people all the time. Just like dogs, there are things about people that are amazingly consistent with differences that are far less numerous than the similarities. I can look across the kennel and spot something different about one of my dogs and I can glance at a boarding dog and notice if the dog is not feeling well. It is an ability you develop when you are around dogs all the time, just like it was an ability I developed with people when I was managing them. 

I talk to people who bring their dogs here for boarding on a daily basis . They have one dog but I am the one explaining to them what kind of dog they have and why the dog behaves in certain ways. I see these dogs over the course of a few days and I know pretty quick what I am dealing with, what type of temperament the dog has, how he is dealing with stress etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If ever I was to hire someone, it would be as a sub contractor -- more than minimum wage, but none of the benefits like worker's comp, social security, health insurance. 

Anyone can hose down runs, and fill food and water pails, which would leave me to talk to customers and work with puppies. 

Generally this person would assist in breedings and other stuff so that they would also be learning. Probably the person would be someone who was as interested in this stuff as I am, and would take the part time work, making a few dollars and working with the dogs, exercising them, etc. 

Then, if every I needed to be out of town, that person could in a pinch take care of my dogs. 

But yes, no way to do that unless I am bringing in WAY more money than I currently am.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

staff doesn't bother me. the few time I've seen anything regarding "staff" at a breeder, it's someone who helps with picking up dog poo, or hosing runs, sometimes just helping with exercise. But the actual "work" of breeding, training, etc goes to the owner. Would a handler for the show ring count as staff? 

to Lies, there are a LOT of people around here who rely on their dogs as their sole income. some only have 1 bitch or 1 breed, others have 5 or more, sometimes of various breeds. The woman who gave away Freya was like that. Her dogs were her only income - she had 1 stud and 2 bitches of each of the toy breeds. She also made mixes - buggles (sired by the guy next doors beagle), yorkie-poos, etc etc. When we were there, she had 3 litters on the ground.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

selzer said:


> If ever I was to hire someone, it would be as a sub contractor -- more than minimum wage, but none of the benefits like worker's comp, social security, health insurance.
> 
> Anyone can hose down runs, and fill food and water pails, which would leave me to talk to customers and work with puppies.
> 
> ...


Before you hire any one as a sub contractor, go on the IRS site and look at their test for subs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I sub contract for my sister's company, babysitting their kids, cooking for them, and doing some filing or office work for them -- they have a business that pays me. I do not get health insurance or social security. I get a 1099 at the end of the year. 

But hiring employees is not something I am concerned about at present. It takes me 1 hour to clean poop, feed, and water my dogs each day. Regular training and grooming and exercise is something I can manage on my own, though I do go to training classes, and I do use groomers occasionally, but for every day stuff, I do that myself, and I do not foresee that changing ever really.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

That's fine Sue, but I am pretty familiar with the IRS definition of a legal sub-contractor.

It is like most expenses on a return. No problem until an audit. 

And I'm speaking in general here, I'm not making any call on your status.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Then there are those people who think they are "bettering the breed" when they really have no idea or aren't very professional....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, if I ever get there, I will certainly figure out how best to manage it. 

My sister is a jd/mba whose last couple of decades have been working with tax law. She has been helping me with the business stuff and my taxes. This past tax year was the first year that I actually subcontracted for them, and she set it up as a business, filling out all the proper paperwork. I am not concerned with being audited, because my sister would not do anything underhanded -- not because she is a lawyer, but because that is her nature.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm ok. My sister is a jd-mba who spent the last couple of decades in tax law. She is helping me with the business stuff. This last tax year was the first year that I worked over there. And she set up all the business stuff for it. I know she would not do anything under-handed, and I am sure she knows how to do it properly.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

As I said Sue, it was not directed at you. I have seen a lot of people hurt paying or being paid as a subcontractor.

If you are set up as a business that is slightly different then someone that is not.

The IRS means test is on their site for anyone that is interested.


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## Dayna&Jared (May 3, 2010)

that definatey is a red flag. it sounds like to me that they are only doing this for money. b/c they have 5 liters, that is alot of food for the parents, alot of food for the puppies when they are old enough. and if the ones that they are breeding are in any kind of way related those puppies will have some kind of birth abnormality, about the ears, their color, ect.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Dayna&Jared said:


> that definatey is a red flag. it sounds like to me that they are only doing this for money. b/c they have 5 liters, that is alot of food for the parents, alot of food for the puppies when they are old enough. *and if the ones that they are breeding are in any kind of way related those puppies will have some kind of birth abnormality, about the ears, their color, ect*.


My boy is missing his whole right toenail on his back right paw. It was never there.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is a big difference in speaking and judging things from a position of working knowledge and speaking and judging things from a perspective of what you "think" based on emotion and lack of formal knowledge. Judgements from people actively involved in what they are judging have a point of reference to consequences and also unintended consequences. People judging from a lack of practical knowledge often have simplistic idealistic opinions that don't have a basis in practical knowledge because their information they use to form their opinions is based on what some other ill informed person told them or they read on internet. I find this to be true in dogs quite a bit. People who decide who should be breeding, who couldn't tell you anything about breeding stock themselves. People who breed dogs for the consumer, instead of the standard, and letting the consumer decide whether they want what the dog is(a working dog) or whether it is not for them. Places like Eurosport and Jinopo, Mittleweist, Tiekerhook, and many many more kennels are producing far more superior German Shepherds by standard than most hobby breeders. Why???....because they have superior knowledge of the breed and lines, and ultimately breeding(as is everything else) is about knowledge and application and not opinions and speculation.JMO


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I know a border collie breeder who breeds working (herding) border collies (some also are conformation champions). There is a huge demand for her dogs and one day when I was at her farm for herding lessons she had a new litter and 3 other litters. I wouldn't call her a bad breeder. It does warrant a closer look just to see what is really going on, though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that several litters on the ground at once makes you wonder, but I think that if you have only one litter/year, that warrants a closer look at your goals and reasons for breeding, and also whether you are in it for the long haul. 

If you have a couple of litters per year, it warrants a closer look to ensure that you have adequate knowledge, experience, and what you do with your dogs.

If you have many litters, it warrants a closer look to ensure that all the ducks are in a row, everything on the up and up, all dogs are treated humanely and puppies are well cared for. 

No flags take the place of doing your research. People actually turn their noses up to a place with half a dozen, clean kennels and dogs, saying they would NEVER buy from a puppy mill, and turn around and purchase a dog from their local pet store. While the breeders shake their heads at that, inwardly we have to be somewhat glad that such a customer did not purchase from us.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> I agree that several litters on the ground at once makes you wonder, but I think that if you have only one litter/year, that warrants a closer look at your goals and reasons for breeding, and also whether you are in it for the long haul.
> 
> If you have a couple of litters per year, it warrants a closer look to ensure that you have adequate knowledge, experience, and what you do with your dogs.
> 
> ...


Speaking of Puppy stores, there is one at my mall, The pups are super cute, but the place smells, the dogs are asleep half the time, the puppies are bunch into these little box like things, and have only shreds of paper and no toys, and no human interaction what so ever.

They had a border collie puppy that my brother wanted, but my told him that we would look at the shelter. I explain to my brother later that day that those dogs are from puppy mills and such and explained that buying from the puppy store is not a good place to buy. He understood.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anywhere you have puppies, there will be a smell. They poop rather indiscriminately and I spend half of my existence cleaning it up. Ten minutes after moving them back to the puppy pen, after moving them out, pooper scooping the whole ten by twenty kennel, hosing it down, I will be sitting in my study working on my computer and the smell of a fresh offering will assault my nostrils. 

When oh when does the keep-myself-clean-survival-instinct kick in???

Puppies sleep an awful lot of the time. In fact, dogs sleep quite a bit, but puppies require a lot more. One of the problems with puppy stores are little human monsters tapping the class all day long and NOT LETTING the puppies sleep when they need it. 

Puppies in pet stores may actually have MORE human interaction than is good for them. People come in off the street and ask to see the border collie pup, then the shepherd pup, then the corgi pup, then the mastiff. They go off in the little room and pet and play with the puppy. Only there is no requirement that they did not just come from the animal shelter. They may have been anywhere, petting anything. On the other hand, many pet store puppies are harboring a disease and these people go from the pet store to a breeder or a shelter and pass their diseased hands and shoes to the new location.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> Anywhere you have puppies, there will be a smell. They poop rather indiscriminately and I spend half of my existence cleaning it up. Ten minutes after moving them back to the puppy pen, after moving them out, pooper scooping the whole ten by twenty kennel, hosing it down, I will be sitting in my study working on my computer and the smell of a fresh offering will assault my nostrils.
> 
> When oh when does the keep-myself-clean-survival-instinct kick in???
> 
> ...


It didn't stink like poo or pee it just stunk like they can't clean the place was also kind of dirty.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Keeping animals in close quarters 24/7 is going to smell nasty. 

Pet stores are no place for puppies. 

But it is perfectly legal. 

I am not for more laws, but I wish that we could stop people from selling dogs in pet stores. At the same time a breeder should not be considered in violation if she sells a few cots, toys, training supplies. If doing that classifies her as a pet store, than she would not be able to sell her own puppies. One would think that one could require that puppies be sold only at the breeders and animal rescues/shelters.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> Keeping animals in close quarters 24/7 is going to smell nasty.
> 
> Pet stores are no place for puppies.
> 
> ...


Ever heard of BARKWORKS? thats the store in the mall, there was a video doing an investigation showing where the dogs came from.YIKES!

They sell Puggles & Schnoodles and other designer dogs for 8k.No joke. When we saw the Border Collie puppy my brother wanted It said $11,000. i swear! Next time I go there I wil take pics of the prices with my phone or camera whichever one I can not get caught with.lol

I feel like a detective.There was this other store near me called the "Critter Barn" it got closed down or ran out of buisness. They had a husky or malamute walking around the store.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

pet store prices are always insane....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

800 - 1100, I can see them charging that, not 8-11 thousand??? 

I think I saw a designer dog at a pet store for $1800 once. It begs you to say, "why would ANYONE pay that much for a mutt?"

In all honesty, once you get your dog home, if you are not planning on breeding or showing the dog, a purebred dog is very little different from a mutt. They both need to be house trained, they both get sick and need to go to the vet, they both need to be licensed, they both need to be trained. 

There was a rediculous article showing how much more a purebred costs from a mix. It went something like this:
Mixed breed.................................................. Purebreed
cost: $50 adoption fee ....................................$1500 
shots: included ..............................................$225
spay/neuter: included .....................................$275
Food: $20/40 pound bag ..................................$50/30 pound bag
training: $12 for a book on training ...................$1600 for training camp
Vet: yearly check up $50 ..................................$1000 screening/testing/genetic issues

and the list went on and on and came up to like 3 or 5 hundred for a year for a mix and $12000 for a purebred. What a bunch of huey.

It is certainly possible that people who spend the dollars to buy a well bred dog from a reputable place will also invest in proper containment, equipment, and training, but the idea that purebreds require the insanity that we shower on them is ludicrous.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The employees didn't really know much about the dogs either.....They had 2 GSD puppies when I was there last.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

selzer said:


> There was a rediculous article showing how much more a purebred costs from a mix. It went something like this:
> Mixed breed.................................................. Purebreed
> cost: $50 adoption fee ....................................$1500
> shots: included ..............................................$225
> ...


I agree, what a ridiculous article and list!!! I can tell ya that for me, my shelter dog would cost me more as per above list, as she would be the one that would need boot-camp style obedience training, and is pretty pricey to feed as she needs to be on a raw diet to control her spay incontinence . . . while my pure-bred dog is healthy-healthy-healthy and so easy, he just about trains himself!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

did you notice, in that "article," that they assume that if you have a shelter dog you will be feeding cheaper food? that you will be less interested in vet care? that you will be less interested in training?

I'm surprised that they spent $12 on the training book, you can borrow it from the library for free.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My shelter dog was pretty easily trained she wanted nothing more than to please. She actually was the dog that got me hooked on training.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The whole issue with that article is that it assumes that a pure-bred dog was purchased as a status symbol and maintained as one, while the shelter dog was adopted as a "cheaper" alternative - both assumptions being completely false, and doing both shelter dogs and pure-bred dogs a HUGE disservice!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Didn't read the article not sure why it matters?


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> The whole issue with that article is that it assumes that a pure-bred dog was purchased as a status symbol and maintained as one, while the shelter dog was adopted as a "cheaper" alternative - both assumptions being completely false, and doing both shelter dogs and pure-bred dogs a HUGE disservice!


Completely agree. 

So, what if your dog is BOTH a shelter dog and a purebred? What then? Like mine. lol


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lin said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> So, what if your dog is BOTH a shelter dog and a purebred? What then? Like mine. lol


Well your dog is awesomez!lol. you have the benefit of knowing you rescued a dog and know its a pure bred!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have 4 pets, 2 are from a shelter and the other 2 are from breeders

1 shelter cat is my soul mate and I absolutely love her to death

1 shelter cat hates everyone, even me, she comes to you when she pleases and will only let you pet her with your foot!

My GSD from a breeder absolutely loves me, does anything to please me

My Ragdoll kitten from a breeder is the sweetest most playful thing, she loves people, loves cuddling, loves being held

I think you take your chances when you buy a pet from a shelter, you really dont know what you are going to get. I have a friend that has 5 female cats all from the same shelter and only 2 of them are friendly towards people, the other 3 are always hiding and they dont care for their owner. (she got them all as kittens at different times)

Most purebreds are what the book says about them, sure some are different but they wouldn't write several books about them saying the same thing if thats not how the majority was. 

When I was looking to get a puppy and wasn't sure what I wanted I read numerous books on GSD's and loved what I was reading. I bought a GSD because I wanted a loyal, smart, intimidating, good looking and hard working dog and thats exactly what I got.

I wanted to buy a Ragdoll kitten because I wanted a very friendly, laid back, loving cat that enjoyed cuddling and being picked up and that's exactly what I got.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

LaRen616 said:


> I think you take your chances when you buy a pet from a shelter, you really dont know what you are going to get.


I disagree. When adopting an adult from a shelter or rescue the temperament is already there. In cases where the dog has been fostered you can get details about the behavior and personality including with strangers, other pets etc. It is very difficult to temperament test puppies and know what they are going to be like when they grow up. One of the reasons why the best breeders choose the puppy for you, because the majority of people don't know how to do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I disagree. Most shelters do not foster dogs, unless they are pregnant. Rescues -- some, maybe most do I do not know. 

Getting a dog from an animal shelter is a bigger crap shoot than buying a puppy. Lots of times dogs do not settle down and show their true colors for weeks. Then you find out why the previous home is a previous home. 

It really depends on where you are from, how much feedback you get from the people at the shelter. Bigger cities may have more employees, and more programs, but they may also have many more dogs per human. In fact some of those shelters on kill shelters, and how much can you tell about a dog in 3-7 days?

You can get a great pet from a shelter, but to suggest that the dog is portraying his normal self in the situation really depends. 

If it was a perfect world, we would not need rescues or shelters, but as it is not, getting a dog from a good rescue sounds like the ticket if you do not want to show the dog. However, if a person does not know how to pick a puppy, then how can we expect them to know how to recognize a good reputable rescue???

At different times in people's lives, needs are different, and it may make sense to that person at that time to buy an older dog or puppy from a breeder or from a rescue. The individual should not feel better or worse for that choice. 

I talked to a lady with an adult child who has down syndrome. I think her choice with going with a puppy makes a lot of sense. She has done this before with great success. And it is certainly not the only reason for going with a puppy. 

There is always the possibility with a puppy to wind up with a dog with incredibly high drive, or painfully bad nerves. I think the same can happen when you get a dog from a shelter. I think it is also very possible to get a dog that is unpredictable. I mean a shy dog is what it is, and with some understanding and consistancy, what cannot be improved can certainly be managed. But an unpredictable dog is much more difficult to deal with. 

Lots of people would prefer to have some control over the early development of the dog.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Every humane society/shelter I have volunteered with in Indiana (from NW to Central IN) had dogs in foster care; often more dogs in foster care than dogs that stayed in the actual shelter. Every rescue I have volunteered for or adopted from was run purely out of foster homes and did not have an actual shelter building. This includes rescues outside of Indiana. 

Knowing how to pick a rescue is a far cry from knowing how to pick a puppy. 

I never said purchasing from a breeder was a bad thing, that people should not do so etc but merely disagreed that you are taking your chances whenever adopting a dog from a shelter. I'm sorry you believe that adopting is a "crap shoot" and do not have quality rescues in your area.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

a LOT of shelters don't foster, some for lack of volunteers, others because of liability issues. Liability is why our shelter won't even consider it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Our shelter lets big dogs go for 25$ and little dogs go for 50-75$. 

They had to go from no-kill to kill a few years ago.

They have volunteers and do take picture of dogs and post them on pet finder.

They do save purebred dogs out for rescue when they get them in.

They have dogs that live outside in pens with dog houses. And other dogs live inside in small pens.

It is a grim place to be sure.

The closed down pet store at the mall is opened on Saturday and some of the dogs from the shelter are taken there to be found homes. I find this a little disturbing because it caters to impulse buyers, but if they have success with it...

There is no foster program. 

I doubt anyone could give a temperament test.

Dogs are spayed or neutered before leaving which is good.

The hours they are open are from Noon to 2:00. 

I believe it is run totally by volunteers and donations. Vets do perform speuters for them for free. While it is not perfect, they are doing the best they can with what they have, BUT getting a dog from there IS a crap shoot. 

Getting a puppy from ANYWHERE is a crap shoot. And that includes reputable breeders. It is hoped that we will stand behind our dogs. And we make some guarantees. Buyers make no guarantees. They feed the dogs garbage and let them get smooshed in the road or pump them so full of pesticides and womicides and disease assides and anesthetic, unnecessary operations, and the whole nine yards that unless we have a guarantee that says not to allow your dog to see a vet for 2.5 years we will be burned at some point. 

But no one can guarantee a trouble free puppy or dog. 

Dogs that do fine in you foster home that has a few benign dogs and a cat, may try to eat a more dominant dog or a dog of a different breed or the cat. The dog may be perfect with little girls and an infant boy and want to chase boys in long pants. If they have not experienced that in foster care, then you will never know that.

If you have a puppy, from the beginning, the puppy when it is a dog will not one day decide to maul to death a toddler. Generally, there will be cues all along the way, and you can nip behaviors in the bud. 

There are reputable rescues and reputable breeders, but they still deal with questionable buyers. A perfectly fine puppy can be ruined by bad/abusive handling, and can be damaged by ignorant handling. A good pup will be able to recover from a lot, but there are limits.

I really do not know who is taking more of a risk, the person taking home their new pup, or the breeder/rescue watching that pup go. We listen to people, and listen, and ask a few questions to keep them going, and we generally feel pretty good about the homes the pups have gone to. But it is still a risk.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The shelter I volunteer at just got the approval of the city to get a permanent full-time vet. The vet will be employed at the shelter I volunteer at.

Before they had volunteer vets(VCA Hospitals), plus we just had a a BIG adoption event where 43 dogs, 21 cats, and 1 bird were adopted, plus they are publicly funded. We have just had very generous donors. We also have a foster program.

But I guess some shelters/rescues are luckier than others.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My Aunt adopted a Cocker Spaniel from a shelter, it was a friendly, sweet, well behaved dog for about 2-3 weeks. One day when my cousin was petting the dog it jumped up and bit her in the face! My aunt was in the room when it happened and she said my cousin didn't provoke it or anything. My cousin had to get stitches on her face, they took the dog back and told the shelter what happened and that it should be labeled vicious and the lady at the shelter said no because then it wouldn't have a shot at being adopted and it would be PTS. Well, duh.

Not all shelters do temperment tests.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

The breeder I got Sin from didn't help me choose, I knew what I wanted, I went there looking for a certain personality

I wanted a puppy that wasn't afraid to come to me, one that was playful but could relax so I could pet it and pick it up. I didn't want a puppy that showed no interest in me. I didn't want a puppy that showed dominance over the other puppies (bossy and very rough play) I also didn't want a puppy that looked and acted completely freaked out and cried.

I chose the exact match for me. The breeder had nothing to do with picking him out.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

LaRen616 said:


> The breeder I got Sin from didn't help me choose, I knew what I wanted, I went there looking for a certain personality
> 
> I wanted a puppy that wasn't afraid to come to me, one that was playful but could relax so I could pet it and pick it up. I didn't want a puppy that showed no interest in me. I didn't want a puppy that showed dominance over the other puppies (bossy and very rough play) I also didn't want a puppy that looked and acted completely freaked out and cried.
> 
> I chose the exact match for me. The breeder had nothing to do with picking him out.


I asked my breeder for the same thing and that is what I got. Good thing too, because the breeder is in The Netherlands and I didn't see the pup (except photos) until I went there to pick it up.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

LaRen616 said:


> I chose the exact match for me. The breeder had nothing to do with picking him out.


You've also stated that you believe the breeder to be a BYB. 

Cocker Spaniels are one of the breeds thats most prone to having aggression problems. In fact there is a condition most specific to them called Rage Syndrome, or Sudden Onset Aggression. In this they frequently will be fine for years, and suddenly snap acting aggressively to their family. I would not blame the shelter in the case of the cocker spaniel, but the dogs breeding. The dog may very well have passed temperament tests.

Its also very possible for dogs to act differently after adopted, especially if they were not fostered. I had one foster I had to "return" to the shelter. At the shelter he passed temperament tests with people, cats, and other dogs with flying colors. The first few days he was the model canine. Once he settled down he showed his true colors in being extremely aggressive towards my cats and Tessa, chasing her under my bed and trying to squeeze under the bed as well to continue after her. Crating and rotating did not work, while he was in the house Tessa was absolutely terrified. But then again, since we now knew this about his personality he was changed to a foster home without other pets and his adoption was put strictly for homes with no other pets, or an experienced dog trainer. He went to be in single dog family.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I blame the shelter if the shelter did not label the dog properly after being told of a serious facial injury to a kid with stitches, just to protect the dog from being put down. 

I find that to be a strange scenario. Shelters do not want to be sued, it can literally bankrupt most of them. For liability, and because it is really not helpful to anyone to adopt out a dog that is unpredictable and dangerous, I would expect most shelters to euthanize such a dog.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

selzer said:


> I blame the shelter if the shelter did not label the dog properly after being told of a serious facial injury to a kid with stitches, just to protect the dog from being put down.


Ugh I had misread that, I thought it said that when the dog was brought back to the shelter for being vicious that they said the dog wouldn't be adoptable and put it to sleep.


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