# Puppy shots



## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Okay...how many do you usually give? Abby has her third on Monday morning. So is 3 or 4 recommended? I keep reading different opinions on it. I know she needs her rabies at 16ish weeks. I am going through a local program to have her spayed and they can do the rabies at the same time....and it will save me a lot! 

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## gurlonfire2004 (Jan 15, 2014)

My vet recommended 4 because German Shepherds are more susceptible to parvo, so she got 4.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Can't you get puppy shots at Tractor Supply?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

we had 4 on our pup because parvo is rampant here


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

3, 4 wks apart. Dr Dodds protocol:

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | 2013 and 2014 Canine Vaccination Protocol - W. Jean Dodds, DVM


You are getting her spayed at 16 weeks? You may want read up on early spaying. Letting her go through her first heat is healthier. Studies show cancer increase with early spay. Google early spaying on this site. THere are threads with plenty of links.


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## SkippyShadowCat (Mar 10, 2014)

Our vet does 5 shots. Parvo is bad here as well.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

* Studies show cancer increase with early spay. Google early spaying on this site. THere are threads with plenty of links.*

_some_ studies showed some increase and other cancers _decrease_ with early spay 
there is a trade off in everything risks and benefits alike


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

I will be getting her spayed around 16 weeks....it is our choice....there is a study out there to support any side to most debates. Plus we have a small window where we qualify for a very reduced rate voucher for her spay. 

And I could do the shots myself as I am a tech but I like the paperwork trail that you get by going to a vet. 

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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

I think I am going with 4, the first was at 6 weeks so not sure it did much good anyway. They can give the last one with the rabies. And no I don't want them spaced out. 

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

nktigger99 said:


> I think I am going with 4, the first was at 6 weeks so not sure it did much good anyway. They can give the last one with the rabies. And no I don't want them spaced out.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are a tech and won't space out the rabies from the other vaccines? Why is that? Have you read Dr. Dodds protocol? Getting her spayed the same time as giving her those vaccines is going to be hard on her immune system. Is it worth saving a few dollars to stress her like that?


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Yes and as a tech I have seen it done with hundreds of dogs. No stress....plus most of those dogs were also chipped at the same time. 

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And the follow up, years later, did the dogs develop any auto immune disorders or other health issues?


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

If they did do you have any proof that they would have not gotten sick if they had never gotten those shots....of course not.....because no one can know that. 

This is the same debate that some people have with children's vaccines....ya sorry don't by into all the hippy dippy stuff. 



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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> * Studies show cancer increase with early spay. Google early spaying on this site. THere are threads with plenty of links.*
> 
> _some_ studies showed some increase and other cancers _decrease_ with early spay
> there is a trade off in everything risks and benefits alike


 
I've yet to see a study that shows early spaying outways the benefits of waiting. If my memory serves me (and there's a good chance it isn't) there was one (cancer) that was minimally increased (.2% or something), all others were improved by waiting.

I'd be interested in reading the studies you are referring to. None of the research I did showed it was better to spay early. I'll look for the thread I'm referring to. It has a vid (vet) outlining the study and why it's better to wait.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

nktigger99 said:


> If they did do you have any proof that they would have not gotten sick if they had never gotten those shots....of course not.....because no one can know that.
> 
> This is the same debate that some people have with children's vaccines....ya sorry don't by into all the hippy dippy stuff.
> 
> ...


ok then....poke away


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

That is okay...she will be getting spayed at 16ish weeks. 

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why did you start this thread if you already have decided what you are doing?


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

He may want a lanky skinny dog as it is a known fact that is one outcome of spaying/neutering early.

OP sounds like your mind is made up but for anyone interested I found the thread with the video.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/358017-dr-becker-truth-about-spaying-neutering.html


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Ummm...was this thread about spaying no....it was asking a question about puppy shots

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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

nktigger99 said:


> Ummm...was this thread about spaying no....it was asking a question about puppy shots
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I answered that question, 3 shots, 4 wks apart and provided Dr Dodds protocol. You said you were spaying at 16wks on your thread about puppy shots so that opened the door to early spay studies.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

I know plenty of large big dogs who were spayed and neutered early....any dog that was adopted out of a shelter under 6 months would qualify....are you saying every single one of those is lanky and skinny??? Lol that is laughable

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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

You are definitely showing us your knowledge level. You are going to do what you want so not sure why you asked. Have a good evening.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> I answered that question, 3 shots, 4 wks apart and provided Dr Dodds protocol. You said you were spaying at 16wks on your thread about puppy shots so that opened the door to early spay studies.


I can see presenting the study but getting bent out of shape because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you is funny.....I asked about the shots....which was helpful....the shot at 6 weeks was kind of pointless...but her breeder did it so oh well...so she needs two more. 

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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Lol...because I don't believe studies off the internet....hmmm...ya that shows my knowledge level. 

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People in the medical fields ought to know that hormones and glands effect many things including the growth, immune system, and possibly longevity. If the OP, who is in a medical field wants to spay at 16 weeks because it is cheaper (which it generally is), and because she does not see the benefits of waiting, then that is her business. And yes, this thread is not about that. 

It is about whether to give the dog three sets of shots or four, because the OP obviously does NOT trust her vet's protocol in this. Which is smart because vets see a LOT of dogs of every breed and mixes, and not all of them are as sensitive to some things and the immune systems of the weak GSDs often are. 

Only you really did not give us enough information. At what age did your puppy get shots, 1, 2, and 3, because that is what really matters. If the first set of shots was given at 6 weeks, it probably doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you have to replace it, but if the next set was at 9 weeks or 10 weeks, then it PROBABLY happened after the dam's immunity wore off. No way to tell for sure unless you do titers I guess. A fourth set of shots are cheaper than titers, so that is probably why it is done. 

The third set will boost the second set, and a fourth set of shots should not be necessary. Really. But lots of vets like to do four sets. I suppose it is easier to have it across the board the same, and darn the torpedos when it comes to whether or not over-vaccinating a dog causes auto-immune problems in some dogs. 

I think the later the first set of shots is, the less necessary a fourth set is. Because the chances are then that for sure the second set happened after the mother's immunity has worn off.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> You are definitely showing us your knowledge level. You are going to do what you want so not sure why you asked. Have a good evening.


I asked about shots.....not about spaying....maybe re read my original post.

Are you upset because I don't have the same opinion as you? That is funny!!!! 

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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

As another person in the vet field, I can tell you what our protocol would be if pup got a shot at 6 weeks. 

Dhpp and bordetella at 9-10 weeks
Dhlpp and bordetella at 13-14 weeks
Lyme at 15-16 weeks
Dhlpp and rabies at 17-18 weeks
Lyme at 19-20 weeks

Spay neuter at 6 months. 

That is an over generalized plan that would happen at my clinic. However,though I know you did not ask for it, most vets, mine included, are recommending waiting until 8-9 months for spay/neuter and supporting clients that want to wait until after a year old. 

But it's your decision when to spay/neuter. So that's what we do. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why do you automatically do the bordatella for baby puppies?


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

selzer said:


> People in the medical fields ought to know that hormones and glands effect many things including the growth, immune system, and possibly longevity. If the OP, who is in a medical field wants to spay at 16 weeks because it is cheaper (which it generally is), and because she does not see the benefits of waiting, then that is her business. And yes, this thread is not about that.
> 
> It is about whether to give the dog three sets of shots or four, because the OP obviously does NOT trust her vet's protocol in this. Which is smart because vets see a LOT of dogs of every breed and mixes, and not all of them are as sensitive to some things and the immune systems of the weak GSDs often are.
> 
> ...


That is what I got from all the links posted....as I commented on.....the first one at 6 weeks had probable little effect....but it was done so oh well.....so yes the one at 16 weeks would make me more comfortable....plus the few vet clinics I called today said pretty much the same thing.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

I had a female GSD it adopted an she was really scrawny and had health issues and I was told she had been spayed before her first heat.... So I take it that she developed these problems from spaying her to early.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would actually say there are legitimate vets who are concerned about vaccine overload and injection site sarcomas. 

Holding degrees in both biochemistry and analytical chemistry, I do not have a high comfort level with over vaccinating an animal and do believe in doing titers. I also hold a very low opinion of pharmaceutical companies in general.

If you want a mainstream publication to assist you with your vaccine schedule, consult the AAHA vaccine guidelines. They have evolved over time due, in part, to the effort of all those "hippy dippy" vets like Dr Schultz at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine.

http://www.aahanet.org/publicdocuments/caninevaccineguidelines.pdf


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

not so madison
your puppy could have had other factors but spaying early has no bearing on if a dog is scrawny or has health issues
it is genetic most likely that is her parents are built this way
if it is a pound pup who knows what it went through before you got her or what her parents looked like


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> not so madison
> your puppy could have had other factors but spaying early has no bearing on if a dog is scrawny or has health issues
> it is genetic most likely that is her parents are built this way
> if it is a pound pup who knows what it went through before you got her or what her parents looked like


True, her toe nails would fall of and one of her ears were flipped over. The doc said that's probably why she's in that condition so I just agreed with him. But yeah might've had something to do with bad breeding


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

More recent proceedings but not formalized as guidelines yet

http://www.wvc.org/images/session_notes_2013/2013_S5D.pdf


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> I had a female GSD it adopted an she was really scrawny and had health issues and I was told she had been spayed before her first heat.... So I take it that she developed these problems from spaying her to early.


 
Not knowing her background there really is no way to know. Glad you save her! You can read about the effects early spay/neutering has on growth in the link below.

First section is on orthopedic considerations*

*http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf



Multiple links here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/basic-care/313569-neutering-pros-cons.html


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Are you upset because I don't have the same opinion as you? That is funny!!!! *

you just described this forum to a T 

well the entire internet really but still lol


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

have u ever seen this page
http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
> 
> have u ever seen this page
> http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf


 
I have seen it but some may not so thanks for posting. One of my best friends is vet and I tend to take her advice which is less vacs, wait to spay and never neuter. Thankfully we live in a country where we get to decide for ourselves...at least for now (hoping that doesn't change).


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

It's good to not neuter your male dogs? I was told it's best... Keeps from wandering, mounting, and always trying to mark his territory. But I have also heard if he intact that something about the coat looks better and heathier??


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

That's a whole new topic/thread. Her advice is from a medical view point and for 'responsible' owners. Most vets advise from a repro view point (unwanted litters, full shelters, etc).


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

madison it is up to the owner
be educated but not bullied or intimidated
this board as a whole tends to do both when it comes to early s/n 
if you want to neuter early yes you may well avoid wandering and mounting and even marking 
some say it is training and yes training goes into it but hormones are the cause of some of those behaviors

people who have intact pets *are not smarter* than those who choose s/n
people who have intact pets *are not better pet owners *than those who choose s/n and even early s/n either


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Training does all of the above. I will never again neuter a male dog unless it is absolutely necessary for a health reason. I am so much more pleased with the physique and temperament of my intact males than those who were neutered. But it is very much a matter of opinion and each person needs to take the information available to them to make that decision.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> madison it is up to the owner
> be educated but not bullied or intimidated
> this board as a whole tends to do both when it comes to early s/n
> if you want to neuter early yes you may well avoid wandering and mounting and even marking
> ...


 
I'm not sure where the bully impression came from. This board is full of all kinds of opinons which I think is a good thing and is beneficial in learning. I know I've learned some things on here and I've been in dogs for 30 years.
The most important thing is to do your homework and educate yourself the best you can and make your decision on what works best for you. THere is no one answer that works for everyone.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

No in a way diesel is right, people on here do tend to gain up on one that post a thread and they don't think they know what they're talking about and has they're own opinions flying everywhere. Like some people take it to the next level when it's not necessary..


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

That's one way to look at it. I look at it as providing as much information as possible so people can make educated decisions. There is nothing wrong with spaying/neutering for those that choose it, same for choosing not to. I've exhausted this thread. Happy decision making!


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Seems legit


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> madison it is up to the owner
> be educated but not bullied or intimidated
> this board as a whole tends to do both when it comes to early s/n
> if you want to neuter early yes you may well avoid wandering and mounting and even marking
> ...


And people who have altered pets *are not smarter or more responsible *that those who choose to keep theirs intact.

And people who have altered pets *are not better pet owners *than those who choose to keep their animals intact. 

Though those misconceptions are often bandied about. 

I too will never alter unless there is a problem with the reproductive system. 

But the OP, has had the benefit of our opinions, and really wasn't asking for them, not for spay/neuter and when anyways. So at some point, in the crusade to educate, we tend to go overboard. The OP has indicated that it is not a question, and I think we ought to respect that. 

Otherwise it is bullying. I don't think you can ever win someone over to your point of view by hammering away at someone who doesn't want to hear it. It just makes you tired and frustrated, and wears out your hammer.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Far as shots go, unless you want to increase the chance of your puppy getting sick, space them out at least 3 weeks. Don't allow your vet to give rabies vaccine at the same time as another shot. Its a lot at once going into their system and its a stresser on them. 

Also in regards to early s/n. There are definitely growth possibilities to consider. Hormones are necessary for proper growth and development. Without them, you are effectively stunting proper growth. This is the case with all species. Yes, there are other parts in the body that produce some hormones but the sex organs are the biggest one. You want proper growth rate and physical/mental maturity, it's best to allow the dog to at least wait until they're a year old so the growth plates have a chance to close properly. 

Hormones also play a part in mental maturity. Take those away and you have a permapuppy. 

That's all I have to say on the subject. I would expect a vet tech to make smart decisions, not just decisions based on a strictly financial standpoint. Altering an animal who is still growing presents problems. That is common sense and science.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

dogs are always permapuppy regardless of s/n
they do not mature in their minds the way wolves or other species would

*I'm not sure where the bully impression came from*
possibly from this snarky remark?
*You are definitely showing us your knowledge level.*

selzer this board is heavy on *anti-speuter* and i am not the only one who sees that
so yes the people who hold that opinion tend to loft themselves above others who choose to speuter 
many folks dont care to have genitals swinging in their faces and that is fine and their beliefs should be respected and not belittled and talked down to

you as in general you tend to believe anyone who would alter their pets or desex or whatever term you wanna use hasnt been educated
so when you speak in those terms yes the underlying sentiment is that people who alter are dumb = lack of education = ignorant etc
and that you are the smart one in the conversation


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> dogs are always permapuppy regardless of s/n
> they do not mature in their minds the way wolves or other species would
> 
> *I'm not sure where the bully impression came from*
> ...


Dogs do mature beyond puppy hood. I don't necessarily believe altering will create a dog that retains puppy attributes forever, thought it may make a difference. But it is not like you can reattach them and see if they would have been different had they been intact.

Perhaps it is the pro-neuter every critter that lives attitude that has basically made anyone who doesn't alter their dog into some irresponsible idiot that has made a small population on this forum over-compensate. 

I have had three intact males over the years, and never once had their genitals ever been 'swinging in my face.' It is almost like you think they are dirty or disgusting. Weird. 

I think that whenever people come to a determination about a particular topic, if it matters to them, they will try to let others know what they believe to be true. Why should it be any different for spay/neuter than anything else? Why is it so important for people to guard their position on this topic. 

I choose to keep my critters intact. If someone asks, I will tell them why. I don't think anyone here could change my mind. And I really don't think I will change anyone else's mind. Of course I think I am right about it. We ALL think we are right, else we wouldn't have an opinion either way.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> I'm not sure where the bully impression came from. This board is full of all kinds of opinons which I think is a good thing and is beneficial in learning. I know I've learned some things on here and I've been in dogs for 30 years.
> The most important thing is to do your homework and educate yourself the best you can and make your decision on what works best for you. THere is no one answer that works for everyone.


Are you serious??? You don't see your snarky comments as bullying??? Wow....well yes you have been a bully....this post was about puppy shots...not spay/neuter debate....you took it upon yourself to say because I will not bow to your opinion on an issue I do not have the same knowledge as you. You do know others can have a different opinion then you and still be as educated or even more so then you. 

This whole board is a bully to us lowly pet homes....it is all bullying if we chose the path to spay/neuter are pets before two yet would rip us a new one if our dogs had a litter of puppies. So ya... 

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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm old enough to know not take your bait. I'm happy you are happy with your choice.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> I'm old enough to know not take your bait. I'm happy you are happy with your choice.


Lol....but you will happily insult me. Ya, that shows your true colors. 

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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I won't touch the spay/neuter debate, it's up to each owner to make that decision for themselves.

As for shots I really think Dr. Dodd's protocol is best


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Safer Vaccine Guidelines For Dogs | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Have a friend who had a lab x golden cross....oops litter owned by an equine vet friend...all males neutered really early by equine vet...all males dead by 7 - at least 3 of 4 from cancer...friend spent THOUSANDS of dollars treating and trying to save for over 6 months before realizing she was torturing dog and PTS....Dad is still alive at about 13 now, mom slid on solid ice hilly driveway under a truck and got killed at 11....male pups all dead by 7, another litter of PB goldens from mom, I knew 2 neutered early, also dead early....

Friend now has a male Weim - neutered early coz she hates male dogs lifting their legs...he's 2 - will see how long he lasts.

just some anecdotal observations.....

Lee


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

yet an equal number or maybe even larger have altered pets that have grown old and died at appropriate ages for natural death to occurr
say 12-14 yrs of age
there are far too many factors involved in cancers and what not to point to early speuter as *the* sole cause

and lets face it 
none of them will live forever
i saw a cool saying the other day

health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. 
i think it was redd foxx

*I choose to keep my critters intact.*
selzer dont you keep them intact to breed them??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> yet an equal number or maybe even larger have altered pets that have grown old and died at appropriate ages for natural death to occurr
> say 12-14 yrs of age
> there are far too many factors involved in cancers and what not to point to early speuter as *the* sole cause
> 
> ...


Most of my dogs have not been bred and will never be bred, but they are intact, and will remain intact unless they develop a problem with that part of their anatomy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

We've always spayed/neutered our dogs and usually before a year. All but one lived to be between 14-16. All were mixed breeds except the one that died younger and that was a Rott that was about 10. Based on my experience(with dogs I know)I tend to think that cancers are more of a heredity issue with dogs.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

all our dogs all my life have been altered and have lived well into their teens 
none had cancer


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

My one dog that had cancer was intact......

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i have friends with intact pets that got cancer of reproductive organs and couldn't be saved
another disaster is pyometra in their intact females
that's just a huge mess one i would not wish on my worst enemy


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> just some anecdotal observations.....
> 
> Lee


Well I actually wanted to know what people thought about puppy shots not early spay and neuter but if we are throwing out anecdotal observations... Two brothers. One neutered super young still alive at 12, the other neutered older. Dead at 9. (not neuter related) 

Doesn't really mean anything but since everyone else was throwing out stuff I figured I would too. 

OP if you want your dog neutered young go for it. I really dislike intact dogs and totally get where you are coming from. I have never let a female go through heat and I've been owned by dogs for 30 years. 

So back to the shot question my vet is saying there is new studies showing 16 weeks is not old enough in some of the larger dogs and she really recommends a 4th shot. I haven't done it yet, my boy is coming on 22 weeks and I keep going back and forth over if I should do it or not.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

shepherdmom said:


> So back to the shot question my vet is saying there is new studies showing 16 weeks is not old enough in some of the larger dogs and she really recommends a 4th shot. I haven't done it yet, my boy is coming on 22 weeks and I keep going back and forth over if I should do it or not.


Interesting....that would mean 5 shots for Abby if I did one when she was 20ish weeks also.....my vet says the last one at 16ish weeks with the rabies is good. 



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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well like if the pup had first vaccine at 8 weeks it would be 8-12-16 and a fourth would be 20 weeks
since your pup had one at 6 weeks that should be good to do just four 
just a guess


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> i have friends with intact pets that got cancer of reproductive organs and couldn't be saved
> another disaster is pyometra in their intact females
> that's just a huge mess one i would not wish on my worst enemy



Well, cancer of the reproductive organs usually hits dogs later in life, where the cancers that early spay/neuter seem to increase the risk of hit dogs younger. Cujo was neutered at 14 weeks, dead at 7 from cancer. I have two of his littermates who will be 9 in August, and going strong. Cujo's younger brother dead at 6 from prostate cancer -- yep, he was neutered very young too. And, yes, prostate cancer has a higher risk in neutered pets. I had three of his litter mates. I now have only one. Tori was put down due to a problem with her back, and I lost Whitney due to the dog food mess, which she never recovered from. Heidi is going strong though but she should be. 

Altering pets early can increase the risk of some cancers and decrease the risk of other cancers. Determining what makes sense for you depends on a lot of factors. Whether the risk of hemangiosarcoma goes from 1% to 2% or the risk of mammary tumors drops from 5% to 0%, it just means you have to weigh the risks, and make a decision, with regards to your other reasons and preferences. Lots of dogs are neutered each year. 

I personally think that a lot of the problems that _might _be related to the loss of the reproduction organs, are never and will never be attributed to that. For one thing, people who spay/neuter early do it on the advice of their vet, and 6 years from now the vet isn't going to say, "well, this does sometimes happen when animals are altered early." Never will happen. It doesn't make it not so. On the other hand proving that it is so, is next to impossible. So we make our own decisions. 

And no one should give anyone a hard time for their decision. 

As for vet techs being knowledgeable because of the field they are in, well, it depends on the vet tech, and the veterinarians that they are exposed to, and the type of practice and experiences they have had. Since we are telling stories:

Once upon a time, I knew a vet tech for many years, more than a decade. Her folks are breeders, so she has pretty specialized experience as well. One day, I had some pups that were not gaining weight, and pretty much losing weight, so I was taking their temperatures before tube feeding, and one was at 102 degrees after getting it back from the vet, but I got that down, the next morning it was up to 100. I knew this was high, but I wasn't for sure about the range, so I called over to the vet and talked to this tech. 

I told her what was going on, and she said the temperature was fine. And she told me they were both at 100 degrees when she gave them back to me. I asked her, "even for baby-puppies"? She had the puppies the day before so she knew they were only 5 days old. She said she would talk to the vet. She called back and told me to give both puppies amoxicillin. So I went up to the clinic to get the drug. I asked her while I was there, "so what temperature should the puppies be at?" She told me, "anywhere from 97 to 101. 

The true answer is 96 degrees at birth, and they gain 1 degree each week. 100 degrees is like a fever of 106 in an adult dog. And it is this low temperature that makes canine herpes so devastating to young puppies. 

Because I knew what she was telling me, basically, was incorrect, I said nothing, and took the amoxicillin home, and called the 24 hour clinic where she had her c-section. It is several hours away from me, but I loaded up the bitch and puppies and we went for a day trip. And the repro-vet gave me totally different advice and information. And the puppies stopped losing weight and started gaining. Yay. As there was no sign of infection in the bitch or pups, the amoxicillin would have done no good, and would have futher impeded digestion.

But I have to wonder, does my vet not know what the temperature a puppy under a week old ought to be, or did the vet tech, just think she knows and did not bother to ask the vet. 

Vets tell us not to worry and get them altered at 4 months. They tell us that weed killer on the lawns will not effect a seizure dog. They treat seizure dogs with the five-way distemper/parvo, rabies, and lepto all at the same time. And when you tell them that the dog then had 3 days worth of cluster seizures, they do not admit the connection. They tell us that to get quality dog food, you will have to go to Purina or Science Diet. They tell us that a Raw diet is very dangerous. At some point, you have to listen to what they say, and then look at what you see, and then listen to what others experiences are, and probably look up a few studies on the internet. And maybe, if it is life or death, call a specialist.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

When Bane had his first vet visit/shots, my vet asked if we planned to neuter him. I told him I didn't plan to.. 

He told me at one time, vets recommended neutering/spaying at a young age. He said now they are recommending not doing it until a dog has finished growing. Just what he told me. 

I've read where getting a male neutered can diminish drive. Has anyone experienced this and is it true? 

I do have a question. I will be purchasing a female towards the end of the year. I do not plan to spay her. But, let's say for some reason I end up getting her fixed after her first heat. Has anyone experienced less drive or a more "flat" female after doing so? Any changes at all? 

Not trying to hijack the thread, but since it was brought up, I decided to ask.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

selzer said:


> Well, cancer of the reproductive organs usually hits dogs later in life, where the cancers that early spay/neuter seem to increase the risk of hit dogs younger. Cujo was neutered at 14 weeks, dead at 7 from cancer. I have two of his littermates who will be 9 in August, and going strong. Cujo's younger brother dead at 6 from prostate cancer -- yep, he was neutered very young too. And, yes, prostate cancer has a higher risk in neutered pets. I had three of his litter mates. I now have only one. Tori was put down due to a problem with her back, and I lost Whitney due to the dog food mess, which she never recovered from. Heidi is going strong though but she should be.
> 
> Altering pets early can increase the risk of some cancers and decrease the risk of other cancers. Determining what makes sense for you depends on a lot of factors. Whether the risk of hemangiosarcoma goes from 1% to 2% or the risk of mammary tumors drops from 5% to 0%, it just means you have to weigh the risks, and make a decision, with regards to your other reasons and preferences. Lots of dogs are neutered each year.
> 
> ...


My female GSD, who was spayed young. Had to be put down at 4.5 years of age due to Lymphoma. I have no idea if early spaying caused it, but it makes me wonder.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jmoore728 said:


> I've read where getting a male neutered can diminish drive. Has anyone experienced this and is it true?
> 
> I do have a question. I will be purchasing a female towards the end of the year. I do not plan to spay her. But, let's say for some reason I end up getting her fixed after her first heat. Has anyone experienced less drive or a more "flat" female after doing so? Any changes at all?


My male has high drive and was fixed before I got him. I'd hate to see what he would be like if he wasn't fixed if that was true. Can't really answer about a female. I have only owned one female dog that was fixed after she went into heat a couple times. She was two and it took her a long time to heal and she was in a lot of pain. Nothing about her changed.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The problem with any of our observations is they are anectdotal and of a small population. There is much out there (and on this forum) on the spay/neuter debate...if someone is in conflict about making a decision.


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

4 and I wouldn't spay til 12-18 months you should read up on the threads
Shots up to 16 weeks. I wait on rabies too. I also follow dr dodd's. 
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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