# thoughts on this pair for a prospective pup purchase



## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

ive talked with the owner of this stud dog, as well the owner of the bitch, they are working out logistics but are planning a litter and I was looking to purchase a male from if there is one available. Ill be looking to do ipo work and something that seems to come up a lot from at least local people ive talked with is that long coats are generally show line dogs and wont likely be the best for ipo work. I would think based on what I see out of these two that wouldn't be true but I wouldn't mind hearing opinions from others who know more about this than me as I'm very new to this. 

bitch-
Zenzi*von Oasis

stud- 
Cash vom Arkanum


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you are looking to do IPO work I would make sure that both parents of your future pup are good in that sport, otherwise you might get disappointed if the drive is not what you were after.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wolfy, both parents have their Koer rating, so must have IPO or schutzhund titles to get this.

I'd pass on this breeding because I don't like show lines very much, and these dogs in particular (structure of the dogs, especially the heavy heads and flat feet). I also know of someone who had a Nino sired female that was quite dog aggressive. But, hey, one dog-aggressive female doesn't mean all the offspring are going to be like that. She could have been a rare exception.

The dogs look very much alike in their structure, so this is obviously a look the breeder likes and is trying to breed for. If it's what YOU like, I'd say go ahead. But I would select the puppy carefully, looking for good drives. There are simple tests you can do to determine this - drag a stuffed toy along the ground, and see if pup chases it, throw a toy, to check retrieve drive, roll a can of pebbles or pennies along the floor to check for sound nerves.

When I did this test with Star before I brought her home, she not only chased after the can, she tried to pick it up! I knew then I had a pup with good nerves and retrieve drive.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

egwinjr said:


> ive talked with the owner of this stud dog, as well the owner of the bitch, they are working out logistics but are planning a litter and I was looking to purchase a male from if there is one available. Ill be looking to do ipo work and something that seems to come up a lot from at least local people ive talked with is that long coats are generally show line dogs and wont likely be the best for ipo work. I would think based on what I see out of these two that wouldn't be true but I wouldn't mind hearing opinions from others who know more about this than me as I'm very new to this.
> 
> bitch-
> Zenzi*von Oasis
> ...


If IPO is your real focus, its something you want to be competitive in, I'd say look at dogs and breeders who are active in and their dogs are at that level. If the dog itself is your main focus and IPO is something you'd like to try, get the dog you want and find a club that's open to that type of dog and training. You have to like your dog no matter what.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Wolfy, both parents have their Koer rating, so must have IPO or schutzhund titles to get this.
> 
> I'd pass on this breeding because I don't like show lines very much, and these dogs in particular (structure of the dogs, especially the heavy heads and flat feet). I also know of someone who had a Nino sired female that was quite dog aggressive. But, hey, one dog-aggressive female doesn't mean all the offspring are going to be like that. She could have been a rare exception.
> 
> ...


I likely wont have the ability to see the puppies in person as I wont have the free time to make it to CA for that. I will be able to meet the male stud dog as hes local to me. 



Steve Strom said:


> If IPO is your real focus, its something you want to be competitive in, I'd say look at dogs and breeders who are active in and their dogs are at that level. If the dog itself is your main focus and IPO is something you'd like to try, get the dog you want and find a club that's open to that type of dog and training. You have to like your dog no matter what.


well I'm torn because I love long coat GSD from an ascetic stand point but I do want to do well with the IPO work so that's why id like to ensure good drive. From what ive seen out of the stud dog he is IPO3 and appears to be very well at what he does, the mother I know is IPO1 but I'm not sure much about her. I have talked to someone from the board here that knows the owner of the kennel and said shes very active in the working and show community and has quality dogs so he said he wouldn't hesitate, but also indicated its not his personal top pick as he looks for dogs with much more working line background. 

I have time to really mull over this more before I make any choices as the breeding isn't planned to happen till February at the soonest anyway. In the meantime I'm working with my trainer and one of his dogs to just get a feel for the handling of a higher drive working dog which after just one time of working with one it was a lot of fun.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Showlines can be a lot of fun too, but whichever way you go, leave looks out of it. Structure and temperament, solid nerves. Pick the trainers brain about his dog and where he got him from, and why. You have the advantage of holding the leash and being shown instead of reading about it.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

If I had it to do all over again with IPO in mind I'd start with a one year old dog from a breeder who breeds those kinds of dog. It'll cost a little more but you know exactly what you're getting. With an 8 week old pup you may or may not get what you want and you have to wait until the dog is old enough to start showing in IPO events. And to be honest I'd probably go with a mal if IPO was my singular goal but I'm fortunate enough to have a good mal breeder close by so maybe that has something to do with that.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Showlines can be a lot of fun too, but whichever way you go, leave looks out of it. Structure and temperament, solid nerves. Pick the trainers brain about his dog and where he got him from, and why. You have the advantage of holding the leash and being shown instead of reading about it.


I will only meet the stud dog and owner in person. how ever ive been communicating with the owner of the bitch and shes very informative so far. I will be following the breeder more into the next month as my fiancé and I settle into our new home and look to prepare for an additional dog in the house. so far what I see out of the two dogs based on videos of practice and competition is very appealing for temperament and willingness to work. 



thegooseman90 said:


> If I had it to do all over again with IPO in mind I'd start with a one year old dog from a breeder who breeds those kinds of dog. It'll cost a little more but you know exactly what you're getting. With an 8 week old pup you may or may not get what you want and you have to wait until the dog is old enough to start showing in IPO events. And to be honest I'd probably go with a mal if IPO was my singular goal but I'm fortunate enough to have a good mal breeder close by so maybe that has something to do with that.


I actually am ok with the puppy start as I can work with my trainer from day one than. I do like Mals as well but prefer the GSD. I'm still not set in stone on where ill get a dog from but I'm leaning heavily towards the current pick if this litter comes to fruition. as far as this breeder, from what I see and I'm waiting to hear back more she is heavy into working her dogs as well and very active in the community so that's comforting to hear.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I will say this - I have both a working line female and a showline. The difference between them when it comes to IPO is like night and day! It's not just drives, either. It's overall athletic ability and agility. The working line literally has 'buns of steel' -muscles in the hind legs are like rocks, and she jumps a foot off the back deck when waiting to come in for her supper.

The working line female is fine in the house - great off switch. The show line is the one that tends to get into mischief, even though she's 10 years old now. :rolleyes2:


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I do know Amber works her dogs. Out of anyone on this forum, Jeremy and maybe Celeste, will have the best information for you. They are the ones that probably know Amber best and have seen her dogs. 

As a side note - I am having a really good/fun time working my showline dog in IPO. I have a great trainer who puts up with my less than stellar handling skills


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

mspiker03 said:


> I do know Amber works her dogs. Out of anyone on this forum, Jeremy and maybe Celeste, will have the best information for you. They are the ones that probably know Amber best and have seen her dogs.
> 
> As a side note - I am having a really good/fun time working my showline dog in IPO. I have a great trainer who puts up with my less than stellar handling skills



thanks, hopefully more people will chime in. I do plan to speak with Amber more as well as the owner of the stud and meet him in person to get a feel for his temperament. its a bit more reassuring to hear people chime in and indicate they are happily working showline dogs in IPO. I guess its just that most the local people make it seem like a show line would be no better for me than my current house pet gsd mix I have who has very limited drive. I would like to believe otherwise since both the dogs in mention have titled in ipo but it just gets nerve racking as not only is this a big purchase but I don't want to buy a dog that wont perform as I can just go out an buy another if that's the case haha. 4 dogs in one home will be enough, thankfully two are sub 25lbs and we will have a large fenced in property.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

egwinjr said:


> I would like to believe otherwise since both the dogs in mention have titled in ipo but it just gets nerve racking as not only is this a big purchase but I don't want to buy a dog that wont perform as I can just go out an buy another if that's the case haha. 4 dogs in one home will be enough, thankfully two are sub 25lbs and we will have a large fenced in property.


Another thing to consider is which IPO club do you want to join? Some IPO clubs are mostly or even exclusively WL, and some are SL. Which group of people are you most comfortable with, and even which training field schedule and location is better for you? There was a time when I trained with 2 clubs simultaneously, a WL and an SL. The dynamics, the expectations and even the judges used were different. Most of the SL dogs did get titled and that had as much to do with the factors I mentioned.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I do know Amber first hand and have worked her dogs as she comes to play with my training group from time to time, she's shown mine, and I've been to trials where SHE titles her dogs. Amber travels all over the world showing and working her dogs. Something many don't. She loves her shows but isn't afraid to wash a dog who is pretty but doesn't work. He dogs DO have work ethic, and solid temperaments. They live in the house with a two year old child. As far as SL's are concerned, Amber and her best friend are the only two breeders I've ever recommended. 

Now, if you're looking to be a hardcore IPO competitor, then, I may consider a WL. That being said, I don't know too many people that have gone to Nationals with their first dog let alone, didn't screw it up in some way or another if they even stick with it. I think Steve would agree, that we see fifty "new" members at club before we have one who actually sticks it out. 

If you have anymore questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge. Just know I may be a bit biased because I know first hand how much time, effort, and care Amber puts into her dogs.

Edit: As for the pedigree, combo. I can't answer that as I have zero clue about SL pedigree's. Like I said though, I trust Amber's decisions.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

mycobraracr said:


> I do know Amber first hand and have worked her dogs as she comes to play with my training group from time to time, she's shown mine, and I've been to trials where SHE titles her dogs. Amber travels all over the world showing and working her dogs. Something many don't. She loves her shows but isn't afraid to wash a dog who is pretty but doesn't work. He dogs DO have work ethic, and solid temperaments. They live in the house with a two year old child. As far as SL's are concerned, Amber and her best friend are the only two breeders I've ever recommended.
> 
> Now, if you're looking to be a hardcore IPO competitor, then, I may consider a WL. That being said, I don't know too many people that have gone to Nationals with their first dog let alone, didn't screw it up in some way or another if they even stick with it. I think Steve would agree, that we see fifty "new" members at club before we have one who actually sticks it out.
> 
> ...


out of curiosity what do you mean by "isn't afraid to wash a dog who is pretty but doesn't work?" I assume you mean re home?

I would like to get into IPO competitively, but like you said this is my first attempt at it so I'm going to have a lot to learn first as a handler. I hope to stay committed to the sport as ive held off for the past few years before getting to this point so I could ensure proper space at home to not only support an additional dog but have room to train as I know that's an important aspect of success with any platform. 

the description of her dogs you gave matches others ive heard as well so that consistency make me feel a lot more comfortable as I lean heavily towards purchasing through her. She seems very reputable and I think would be able to recognize what I'm looking for in a potential puppy purchase since I wont be making it to CA prior to the purchase. 

I'm keeping communication with her open and look forward to hearing more info as her and the owner of the male local to me coordinate logistics to make this breeding pair happen.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I see Madison Crowe is looking for a stud that carries the coat gene, talk to the Jensen'so on putting you in contact with her. This would be a working line litter.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I see Madison Crowe is looking for a stud that carries the coat gene, talk to the Jensen'so on putting you in contact with her. This would be a working line litter.


ill ask him this weekend when I see him for training


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I will say this - I have both a working line female and a showline. The difference between them when it comes to IPO is like night and day! It's not just drives, either. It's overall athletic ability and agility. The working line literally has 'buns of steel' -muscles in the hind legs are like rocks, and she jumps a foot off the back deck when waiting to come in for her supper.
> 
> 
> 
> The working line female is fine in the house - great off switch. The show line is the one that tends to get into mischief, even though she's 10 years old now. :rolleyes2:



I am not so sure these differences are as black and white between SL and WL (besides the obvious IPO differences, which while I currently prefer my showlines for my own reasons, I get that I am not going to nationals in IPO. I just want to have fun with my dogs and learn). I could literally see the same differences between my two SL dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've been involved in the sport of 1P0 for 4 years now, and I have to say the differences I see are pretty consistent. Working lines do better at IPO. Some show lines totally wash out, some are able to do it, but don't score as high. Their larger bulk and lack of agility due to the lowered pelvis, curved back, and long lower thigh really decrease their ability to move quickly. They especially have trouble with the hurdle and A-frame.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I have never denied the differences in terms of SL/WL in IPO. I am the type that jokes around with my trainer about my pretty dogs. But in terms of the other stuff - I see those differences in my current dogs. It isn't that black and white. My female is very handy and athletic. Has springs in her legs - she literally jumps over my head. Will always outrun my male because she can turn on a dime. My male is fast and faster in the straights but totally uncoordinated at times. He is also the one who will get in trouble until the day he dies. He thinks he is funny (and he is! Lol) My female would herd sheep til she keeled over and died (and my herding trainer would agree with this statement) but is the best couch potato. Better than my male who needs more. You can find these differences anywhere. They both have drive to work - but they are so different in that. 

I have been around the sport a few years as well. I am very blessed to have worked with a very well respected helper/trainer this entire time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"out of curiosity what do you mean by "isn't afraid to wash a dog who is pretty but doesn't work?" I assume you mean re home?"

that "wash" means that the breeder or the agency has decided that the dog just will not cut it to make the grade for what ever the intended use was.

I have washed dogs from one chosen future path to another that was perfectly suited . This is fair to the dog and it is honest with the buyer.

I have received dogs with a missing testicle when it was clearly stated that I had interest for use as stud in the future , all things working out with other important aspects 

If a dog can not , easily , and with some level of pleasure or satisfaction perform then the dog gets "washed" .

He may end up being the world's best emotional support dog , may be a good candidate for anything outside of the thing he did not have the aptitude for , did not qualify . No point in pushing and training for something that is not naturally there . Not when it counts . You have to keep it real.

looks like Amber has some integrity . I respect that .


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

carmspack said:


> "out of curiosity what do you mean by "isn't afraid to wash a dog who is pretty but doesn't work?" I assume you mean re home?"
> 
> that "wash" means that the breeder or the agency has decided that the dog just will not cut it to make the grade for what ever the intended use was.
> 
> ...


ok I assumed as much but it never hurts to clarify. the reality of it is sometimes no matter the genetics or WL\SL not every dog is going to be able to do the working tasks due to a variety of reasons. surely with good pedigree though it greatly increases their base abilities but a lot will also come in their youth how they are worked and trained and molded to see how they progress as they mature. 

I sure hope I don't get a wash no matter the dog I end up with but worse case, ill be sure to provide a solid home and a plush life for any dog I purchase. 

as far as Amber, so far she does seem to have a lot of integrity and based on some conversation so far understands what I'm looking for and makes sure to have no bias reviews of her pups so the ones with the most optimal working drive land in homes that are looking for that.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What I have learned over the years is that the dogs that I chose with my heart have been my best ones for me personally. The ones that I chose with my brain less so. Really interesting. Choose the pup you like from the very beginning (you already found your breeder) and adjust your expectations for him/her accordingly. Maybe in the end this dog will prefer agility over IPO. I have found that whatever the dogs enjoy most, I do too.
With my Whippets, it was lure coursing. Never thought that I would enjoy something so passive on my end so much, but seeing the dogs go nuts with all that passion made it totally fun for me too. Good luck on your search. You will recognize the right pup whenever you meet the right one.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

egwinjr said:


> ive talked with the owner of this stud dog, as well the owner of the bitch, they are working out logistics but are planning a litter and I was looking to purchase a male from if there is one available. Ill be looking to do ipo work and something that seems to come up a lot from at least local people ive talked with is that long coats are generally show line dogs and wont likely be the best for ipo work. I would think based on what I see out of these two that wouldn't be true but I wouldn't mind hearing opinions from others who know more about this than me as I'm very new to this.
> 
> bitch-
> Zenzi*von Oasis
> ...


Cash is one of my favorite studs in the WGSL world right now. I've been following him for a while. Zenzi is a nice female and I was happy to see this litter announced. 

Cash is a solid IPO dog, and one of the few longcoats who works well. I also have a WGSL longcoat and can be a bit judgmental about the other coaties out there. Cash is solid and I know his owner is picky about who he is bred to. This will be a nice litter and should produce some good working prospects.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

kimbale said:


> egwinjr said:
> 
> 
> > ive talked with the owner of this stud dog, as well the owner of the bitch, they are working out logistics but are planning a litter and I was looking to purchase a male from if there is one available. Ill be looking to do ipo work and something that seems to come up a lot from at least local people ive talked with is that long coats are generally show line dogs and wont likely be the best for ipo work. I would think based on what I see out of these two that wouldn't be true but I wouldn't mind hearing opinions from others who know more about this than me as I'm very new to this.
> ...


I actually stumbled onto him through some of the breeders you referred me to as I think one of them used him as a stud. I was happy to find out he?s local to me and the owner encouraged me to come meet him and handle him a bit. 

She also told me about the breeding planned with Zenzi and set me up with amber to talk more and it really seems a great mix between the two of them for people that are working their SL dogs.


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