# Thoughts on Ceasar Millan?



## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Hey Everyone
I just wanted to know everyones thoughts about the Dog Whisperer. I dont really care for victoria stillwell, she does minor issues. Im talking about Ceasar Millan. Do you think he is too ruff with the dogs? 
Honestly, I think he is phenominal, never seen a dog he cant fix. But his techniques dont work for any situation though.
Tell me what you guys THINK!
Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think he sucks.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for Cesar Milan


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for Cesar Milan


The link doesn't work for me??


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> The link doesn't work for me??


How about


Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for Cesar millan


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> How about


Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for Cesar millan


Still a no go for me so I Google ^^^ but of course it pulled up everything??


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

If Chip can't find it, I ain't even gonna try


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I think he sucks.


....and he makes a ton of money doing sucking. That sucks.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am mixed on him. Some of his basic tenants are good. No talk no touch no eye contact. Calm clear leadership. Calm assertive energy. 

But then he goes and hangs dogs on National TV and I lose it. 

I think there are less confrontational ways of dealing with most of the issues he deals with and I question the ability of his clients to continue his methods after he is gone. 

And he can't fix everydog. He admits to a few cases where he failed, but never goes into specifics. One was pretty high profile when a resource guarding labrador bit the bejesus out of him. And one I remember ended being euthanized after he left because they were unable to maintain him.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Welcome to the official home of the German Shepherd Dog, a dog respected and admired throughout the world for its versatility, loyalty and intelligence. - Search Results for Cesar millan
> 
> 
> Still a no go for me so I Google ^^^ but of course it pulled up everything??


It pulls up a butt load of older Cesar threads from this forum.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I like some of the content and some I think is "camera magic" and that probably makes for more entertaining viewing for some, but sometimes it damages the message and makes some very tough training seem easier than it is. 

The show, IMO is good because it is a source for people to go to for information on understanding that there are different dog temperaments and behaviors. Sometimes, those who don't access a site like this can feel alone with the dog's problems and that can manifest into a very bad situation. It may have helped many on the basics. If nothing else, the show is a way to provide inspiration and learn the importance of "reading your dog".

It may have brought some out of the idea that physical punishment and correction (hours after the event) and rubbing their nose in an accident are not effective. There are important messages given. Whenever you have a show like that, there will be severe critique of the methods used, but for the most part - the show is an asset.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Harsh, bully, intimidating in the wrong way.
In the shows I've seen, he is very big on exercise, which is probably helpful to release some misdirected energy in dogs. One positive for him.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> I am mixed on him. Some of his basic tenants are good. No talk no touch no eye contact. Calm clear leadership. Calm assertive energy.
> 
> But then he goes and hangs dogs on National TV and I lose it.
> 
> ...


What do you mean HANGS dogs?


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

It's actually what it sounds like. The dog is hung by it's collar until it calms down .. not usually to the point of passing out, just cutting off it's air until it submits by going limp. 

Google it to see the specifics as there is a certain way it's carried out. 

It is very controversial ... some say it can save an extremely aggressive dog's life - other's say it's cruel - I just wouldn't ever have a dog where it was a consideration because I know it's not something I could do.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

I firmly believe that you should consider a professional, reputable dog trainer in your area with experience in GSDs. Yes, CM does hang dogs. I don't advocate hanging at all but have actually seen that method used with an extremely aggressive dog ... it was his "last chance". It wasn't extreme as what CM does and luckily it worked for him. But back to CM, Google him, do a lot of research on him. I am wary of trainers who can generate as much bad publicity or reviews as good ones. I don't want to find out the hard way that I made a mistake in choosing my trainer or method of training. It seems that he has ruined some dogs. If he can't switch training methods when something is not working for him, or refer the dog to someone else and ends up ruining a dog, then he is not the trainer for me.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

MacD said:


> It's actually what it sounds like. The dog is hung by it's collar until it calms down .. not usually to the point of passing out, just cutting off it's air until it submits by going limp.
> 
> Google it to see the specifics as there is a certain way it's carried out.
> 
> It is very controversial ... some say it can save an extremely aggressive dog's life - other's say it's cruel - I just wouldn't ever have a dog where it was a consideration because I know it's not something I could do.


Ive never seen that. Usually hw pins them down till they stop resisting.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think he can get the tv viewer dog owner in trouble.

Having said that, I do like the tenet of "Exercise. Discipline. Affection" in that order as a lot of people seem to be big on effusive affection, then never teach their dogs how to behave (disciple means 'to teach'), or give the average dog enough exercise.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am pretty sure that most TV dog trainers are crap. To give CM credit, he says he is not a trainer.
He promotes rescue, exercise and proper behavior. He exudes calm behavior and definitive leadership. AND he is all about fixing the problem, not ditching the dog.
Do I like his methods? Not really.
Do I agree with his assessments? Not usually.
Is he a bad man? Not at all.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Raquan said:


> Ive never seen that. Usually hw pins them down till they stop resisting.


I only remember him hanging a dog once, and it was a large dog that bit him.


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

Holding a dog down is an alpha roll - another controversial method. 

What worries me if there are inexperienced people reading this they might think it's OK to try hanging their dog. Well it's not. 

As a last ditch effort to save a dog, a highly trained, experienced trainer might go there. 

Alpha rolling or hanging is not OK for folks without years of experience and only with a dominant aggressive dog who is handler aggressive. They are rare I have been told and most aggressive dogs, the majority of them, will respond to other training methods. 

But I am out of my depth here ... I just read a lot so I know some things. I also worked with one of the best trainers in my area. But I am a novice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nigel said:


> It pulls up a butt load of older Cesar threads from this forum.


OK that is what I saw. That was then this now.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MacD said:


> It's actually what it sounds like. The dog is hung by it's collar until it calms down .. not usually to the point of passing out, just cutting off it's air until it submits by going limp.
> 
> Google it to see the specifics as there is a certain way it's carried out.
> 
> It is very controversial ... some say it can save an extremely aggressive dog's life - other's say it's cruel - I just wouldn't ever have a dog where it was a consideration because I know it's not something I could do.


Not "controversial" to people that can "successfully" rehab "serious" "up leash dogs!" 

That would be a dog that is not to pleased with a hard correction and has no problem going "up the leash" to demonstrate his displeasure!

Most "Pet Owners" don't have such dogs! If they do?? Good luck to them if they engage the "services" of a "Positive" only trainer!

Money down the drain and those dogs will be PTS when those "efforts" fail!! To those trainers tha own and can "rehab" such a dog??? Those owners have a dog that would walk through the fires of Hades for them!  

This is slightly off topic to the subject at hand but you asked.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

MacD said:


> Holding a dog down is an alpha roll - another controversial method.
> 
> What worries me if there are inexperienced people reading this they might think it's OK to try hanging their dog. Well it's not.
> 
> ...


I dont see the problem with alpha rolling. Its a part of nature, what a mother does to her pups. Its like when you pick up a dog, you try to copy the the mothers mouth. 
As for hanging, I haven't had much experience with that


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

With any professional, use the information that appears useful and ignore the rest. There are as many dog trainers and behavior specialists as you want to find. I like his positive methods--exercise, training, be the pack leader, treat your dogs like they are members of a pack and follow their natural inclinations, give your dogs jobs that fit their breeding and temperaments. The rest, I don't need and won't use. I went to a trainer who suggested we walk a difficult dog in the morning and evening, and it worked. All taken right from Cesar Milan. 

The best advice I can give on training is to read a lot of books and figure out what works best for you and for your dog. People here will recommend only one type of training and it might not be what you are best at or most comfortable with. So, read them all, and then pick and choose.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> With any professional, use the information that appears useful and ignore the rest. There are as many dog trainers and behavior specialists as you want to find. I like his positive methods--exercise, training, be the pack leader, treat your dogs like they are members of a pack and follow their natural inclinations, give your dogs jobs that fit their breeding and temperaments. The rest, I don't need and won't use. I went to a trainer who suggested we walk a difficult dog in the morning and evening, and it worked. All taken right from Cesar Milan.
> 
> The best advice I can give on training is to read a lot of books and figure out what works best for you and for your dog. People here will recommend only one type of training and it might not be what you are best at or most comfortable with. So, read them all, and then pick and choose.


I Agree!


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

Chip - sent you a pm - I wasn't asking a question, I was just concerned that some dogs are going to get hung or rolled by people who don't know how to do it or the dog doesn't need it. 

I have no problem with discipline .. if my dog knows the command I use a prong collar calmly and correctly and with proper timing. But only if praise and treats, redirection and engagement isn't working.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I really liked his book, 'Cesar's Way'.

Much better than the shows for putting across his total philosophy.

I find his system interesting. 

Meeting ritual - No touch, talk or eye contact for 5 minutes

Handler/Leadership skills, Calm assertive

Dog in response is calm submissive

What to communicate to dog - Rules, boundaries, limitations

Time spent with dog - Exercise, discipline, affection 

How dog sees the world - Noise, eyes, ear

These things are pretty easy to learn and a good basis for novice owners.

I also like his commentary of dog behavior

I like how he focuses on integrating unsocial dogs into balanced packs of dogs or using balanced dogs to relieve tension in problem dogs. 

I like how he is not afraid to act when he sees something he doesn't like in a dog. He seems honest with what he releases. He could have omitted many sections of the shows that got him a lot of bad publicity.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I really liked his book, 'Cesar's Way'.
> 
> Much better than the shows for putting across his total philosophy.
> 
> ...


I plan on buying the book, I hear it is a great read.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

find some Michael Ellis videos..


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

I have most of Michael Ellis videos .. he is amazing. Excellent advice. I watch them more than once because I forget.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MacD said:


> It's actually what it sounds like.


Opps:












Made a "misquote" set it straight in a PM.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Opps:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> With any professional, use the information that appears useful and ignore the rest. There are as many dog trainers and behavior specialists as you want to find. I like his positive methods--exercise, training, be the pack leader, treat your dogs like they are members of a pack and follow their natural inclinations, *give your dogs jobs that fit their breeding and temperaments.* The rest, I don't need and won't use. I went to a trainer who suggested we walk a difficult dog in the morning and evening, and it worked. All taken right from Cesar Milan.
> 
> The best advice I can give on training is to read a lot of books and figure out what works best for you and for your dog. People here will recommend only one type of training and it might not be what you are best at or most comfortable with. So, read them all, and then pick and choose.


Not one to watch tv, so I don't know much about Cesar. Is there information written on the bolded part above or is that just something you picked up elsewhere? I would love to be linked to something written, or even a video, where Cesar discusses this.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not one to watch tv, so I don't know much about Cesar. Is there information written on the bolded part above or is that just something you picked up elsewhere? I would love to be linked to something written, or even a video, where Cesar discusses this.


If you honestly want to see his philosophy, then his book, Ceasars Way, Is perfect.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Raquan said:


> If you honestly want to see his philosophy, then his book, Ceasars Way, Is perfect.


I don't want to know his philosophy. I just wanted more information on that specific aspect, but thanks.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not one to watch tv, so I don't know much about Cesar. Is there information written on the bolded part above or is that just something you picked up elsewhere? I would love to be linked to something written, or even a video, where Cesar discusses this.


Oh, I think I remeber something like that on YT, but dont have the link 
He talked about if you have a german shepherd, you dont want him to be a german shepherd, you want him to be a dog. If you have a bulldog,(which cant swim, dont have a good nose), you dont want him to be a bull dog, he will swim, rely on his nose, and be a dog. He talks about this in his "Raising the perfect pup" on youtube.
Hope I helped!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think he is great. He has a gift. He has helped so many dogs who owners exhausted all their opptions. I have never heard any of his clients complain about him. You can not make everyone happy and not going to have 100% success rate. It is always up to the owners to continue the training. Behavior problems in dogs always have to be managed. The only people who complain are mostly other trainers or the trainers convince their clients that cm is not worthy-most probably still watch his show.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> I think he is great. He has a gift. He has helped so many dogs who owners exhausted all their opptions. I have never heard any of his clients complain about him. You can not make everyone happy and not going to have 100% success rate. It is always up to the owners to continue the training. Behavior problems in dogs always have to be managed. The only people who complain are mostly other trainers or the trainers convince their clients that cm is not worthy-most probably still watch his show.


Well Said!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I think Millan is a misguided fool. I've read Ceasar's way and watched the show. He uses incredibly out dated methods that _actual science_ has discredited. What he does is the equivalent of using a 3 1/2 inch floppy instead of the cloud. Old school and less efficient. 



Raquan said:


> I dont see the problem with alpha rolling. Its a part of nature, what a mother does to her pups. Its like when you pick up a dog, you try to copy the the mothers mouth.


That's incorrect. Alpha rolling as we know it is NOT a part of nature. There have been numerous studies on wolves and feral dogs and this is not something they do. What you see when a dog or wolf in nature is nothing more then a social dance. The dominant canine makes a threat display and the submissive canine assumes a submissive posture. It's an act of submission not dominating. It's VERY different from physically putting your dog into that position. The human comparison would be if you yelled at your dog and he rolled on his own. 

Alpha rolling was developed based on flawed wolf research from the 60s. They weren't observing natural packs. That study has been discredited time and time again. Actually the entire concept of an alpha wolf all together has been disproved. 

Articles of interest that cite peer reviewed studies, accredited professionals and what not

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

I DO agree with the exercise thing and the calm energy though


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> If nothing else, the show is a way to provide inspiration and learn the importance of "reading your dog".
> 
> It may have brought some out of the idea that physical punishment and correction (hours after the event) and rubbing their nose in an accident are not effective. There are important messages given. Whenever you have a show like that, there will be severe critique of the methods used, but for the most part - the show is an asset.


There will always be critical flaws for none of us are perfect. Take what you can use and leave the rest..... just like any other training method. I'm pleased the show exists because it does intoduce many to the basic concepts of dog behavior and that I know has helped many.....

Caesar gets a pass IMO because he had done much good and little harm.... may we all walk in those footsteps in our lives.....


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

voodoolamb said:


> I think Millan is a misguided fool. I've read Ceasar's way and watched the show. He uses incredibly out dated methods that _actual science_ has discredited. What he does is the equivalent of using a 3 1/2 inch floppy instead of the cloud. Old school and less efficient.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. I am stinky at posting links. I hate the Alpha Roll. It's disproven science. It one of the things that also annoys me about CM. Wild wolves don't Alpha Roll. 

The biggest proponents, the Monks of New Skete used to talk and advise people to do this. They revised their books about 15 years ago and took it out, even added in a blurb as to why. It's rubbish. And used on the wrong dog, you will get bit and destroy you relationship and any trust your dog had. 

Just don't do it. 

Also, using the new app. And this is a far as my curser would go. So I apologize for the quoted part after this text.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Thank you. I am stinky at posting links. I hate the Alpha Roll. It's disproven science. It one of the things that also annoys me about CM. Wild wolves don't Alpha Roll.
> 
> The biggest proponents, the Monks of New Skete used to talk and advise people to do this. They revised their books about 15 years ago and took it out, even added in a blurb as to why. It's rubbish. And used on the wrong dog, you will get bit and destroy you relationship and any trust your dog had.
> 
> ...


I think, sometimes, with novice pet owners, that the "alpha roll" is confused with the "submissive posture" is the real "ultimate goal" and takes a few minutes so you don't freak the dog receiving the harsh correction out. 

I'm not sure about the "alpha roll" but what I do know about is when a dog will lay down on it's side and chill..... I think there's a mis-communication on terms. When my dogs are going crazy in a "non crazy situation - sometimes, my goal is to break the focus, get them calmed and yes, laying down of their side - this happens if something went wrong in the house for me - I need to get the dog out of the state of panic/aggression/no focus and this is a "reset" button. On their side laying flat and not moving is sometimes necessary..... Calming voice and gentle pets will bring them back into "our world".

I suppose that could be called an alpha roll, but I've never actually seen a literal "roll" - have you? It's just a term to describe extreme "time out" - immediate and necessary.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GSDSAR;



That's incorrect. Alpha rolling as we know it is NOT a part of nature. There have been numerous studies on wolves and feral dogs and this is not something they do. What you see when a dog or wolf in nature is nothing more then a social dance. The dominant canine makes a threat display and the submissive canine assumes a submissive posture. It's an act of submission not dominating. It's VERY different from physically putting your dog into that position. The human comparison would be if you yelled at your dog and he rolled on his own. 

Alpha rolling was developed based on flawed wolf research from the 60s. They weren't observing natural packs. That study has been discredited time and time again. Actually the entire concept of an alpha wolf all together has been disproved. 

Articles of interest that cite peer reviewed studies, accredited professionals and what not

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan

The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

I DO agree with the exercise thing and the calm energy though[/QUOTE]


There is a discrepency here on your interpretation of the wolf research;

As far as I know- there has been no disclaimer of a heiarchy structure within a pack. This is routinely shown by dominent/submissive body postures. The recent changes have been to Alpha/Alpha Sire and Bitch only - and only in the capacity that they were assumed to fight for breeding rights/ alpha supreme positions. 

Nothing has been documented to show there is any difference in subordinate surrendering of their vital parts to a dominate pack member. It is nothing but ritual and inborn - until there is a challenge for a different pack position - subordinance and dominance in a wolf pack remain the same.....


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I've not seen Cesar do an "alpha roll" in years. If nothing else he helps people understand that they can't let the dogs run the house, to learn to read dog body language, stay calm and be patient. One thing I personally liked is when he has a timer showing on the screen as he calmly and firmly waits for a dog to realize he isn't going to let the dog run wild. It reminds me to take a deep breath and count to myself. Often I wait less than two minutes for my dog to chill if I just quietly stand my ground. But if I don't count it feels like forever and I get impatient.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I like some things about some trainers, and don't like some things about some trainers. 

The BIGGEST thing I LOVE about Cesar is what car2ner just mentioned - patience and the time it takes. 

People want results IMMEDIATELY and will often jump the gun, so to speak. 

For example, when you want your dog to stop doing something, you get it away from the situation, have it lay down, and then wait until it's calm. Most people will just say lay down, and walk away - the dog jumps back up because they didn't follow through - in other words, they didn't stay there in front of their dog after they gave the command to wait and make sure the dog was actually calm before they walked away. 

Or when people want their dog to do something, instead of waiting, they correct or do something else ... if people would wait the extra 10-15 seconds (admittedly, it can be a bit longer LOL), you would get what you are looking for.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z009qQ91u5c


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Try this link for previous threads: Cesar Milan

Lots of threads with hundreds of posts. He's pretty much been discussed to death around here.


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## mjackson0902 (Sep 14, 2015)

I actually went to Cesar's website and watched most of his episodes before I joined the forum trying to seek advice about LJ. Nothing he did really worked with LJ. Then I found the forum and it has been happy trails....and sidewalks 3X a day every since. So I didn't really learn anything from him that I did not already know. The forum works for us because I can use my little search bar and go right to what I need. Also, some of these threads provide me with hours of entertainment lol!!! So I guess thanks to all the knowledgeable members out there


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The better question to ask to all the people who hate him is: "What have you done?" The answer is always telling.

I had two intact males get into it a while back, strangely one ended up above the other who was on his back. After that the one on the bottom showed submissive behaviors to the top. Strange I thought this was disproven by science..


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

What's the difference between a Karen Prior seminar and a CM seminar?

At Priors you get 100 behavior scientists, a clicker and a submissive Labrador,

At CM's you'll get a 100 normal people with a bunch of rowdy dogs.


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

While I wouldn't let CM near my current Pup, however he is not a Red Zone case....considering the dogs he deals with and that unless he intervenes most likely they would be PTS or rehomed...as a last resort it makes sense and his methods seem to work. So I say if nothing else that they tried worked and your dog is about to hurt someone...call Cesar


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

CM is just one lucky guy who makes millions thanks to his introduction by Oprah in the past. She had a dog-aggressive spaniel and CM showed up at her doorstep with his pack of Pitbulls and fixed it. Sure! Lots of cut and paste for this show and many of his other ones too.
He is nothing special compared to many other trainers. He knows how to market himself quite well and the public gobbles it up.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> CM is just one lucky guy who makes millions thanks to his introduction by Oprah in the past. She had a dog-aggressive spaniel and CM showed up at her doorstep with his pack of Pitbulls and fixed it. Sure! Lots of cut and paste for this show and many of his other ones too.
> He is nothing special compared to many other trainers. He knows how to market himself quite well and the public gobbles it up.


Many people say he is an actor, but if you read his book, you can tell he's sincere and has a whole philosiphy of dealing with dogs. Its actually quite a good read. Honestly, some dogs get better results from positive reinforcement. I dont really recomend positive reinf. becuase it doesnt correct wrong behavior, it just rewards the good ones


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Raquan said:


> I dont really recomend positive reinf. becuase it doesnt correct wrong behavior, it just rewards the good ones


PR is giving treats or other rewards for good behavior but there is also NR, PP (Positive Punishment) and NP you will need to handle problem behavior. Just a matter of educating oneself.
PR is often mentioned instead of Operant Conditioning which PR is just 1/4 part of.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> PR is giving treats or other rewards for good behavior but there is also NR, PP (Positive Punishment) and NP you will need to handle problem behavior. Just a matter of educating oneself.
> PR is often mentioned instead of Operant Conditioning which PR is just 1/4 part of.


Interesting! Most people think PR is all there is to it. But if you have a misbehaven child that does something wrong. When he does another thing right, you give him candy, but ignore the wrong.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Unfortunately I can't cite a source for once.  But I either read or saw the show where CM had said he deeply regrets promoting the Alpha rolling thing so strongly! I know I heard that but can't find it and by and large the hater's don't really care in any case.

Generally speaking most of the folks that watch his show "think" they see what they need?? But for the most part they don't get it.

I watched his shows for more than a decade and raised several very well behaved family pets partly through what I learned from him. What he says not what he did.

But I only recently discovered the "magic thing." Its pretty much 90% energy and 10% technique.

He takes the dog away from the struggling owner, usually takes off half the "crap" they have on him. If they have nothing useful he will grab a "rope" and fashion a Slip Lead Leash, position it on the dog and they walk!

Just like that! I have done the "exact" same thing with several dogs so far.
Door bolting stray, used a jump rope on that one. I took pulling Deer Dog (told that story) Boxer away from his struggling owner and "instant" change in behavior! Dogs that were "claimed" to be pullers at Boxer rescue. "No" they weren't "pullers" not for me. When I hand them over to there handlers at the end of the day??? Off they go dragging there handler behind them!!:crazy:

And a few others, some were dogs that had never seen a leash in there lives! No problems to be seen. I've not had a leash reactive dog because they are not with me?? 

But I just have to work with more dogs! I just found out there is a GSD rescue local to me so I'll see if they need help! 

Not saying he works for everyone that is what I learned from him and I don't have the books and never met the guy!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip. so true. I once worked a dog for 5 minutes and when he tried to bolt out the door he looked up and followed the leash with his eyes until he saw that I held it and he waited...... A calm and confident attitude works wonders. And people ask me what kinda treats I use


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The only real issue I have with CM is all the freaking Dog Park stuff! He does all this work for people and there dogs and at the end of the show off to the Dog Park they go!

Well what about the other "tools" and there badly behaved dogs?? What happens if a Cesar dog has a bad encounter and then becomes leash reactive again??

Do they get follow up service?? Just something that bugs me! A good tip for them in my view would be to stay out of "Dog Parks!!"


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## NightingaleGSD (Sep 4, 2015)

I like to watch any dog training show, just because I love watching dogs and animal planet and such. Or natgeo. I don't necessarily follow what they do, but I always find shows with dogs entertaining. i think we as a public, just need to take these shows with a grain of salt? And come to our own conclusions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Chip. so true. I once worked a dog for 5 minutes and when he tried to bolt out the door he looked up and followed the leash with his eyes until he saw that I held it and he waited...... A calm and confident attitude works wonders. And people ask me what kinda treats I use


Yeah the treat thing. Easy to get in trouble, hard to undo! 

But the "magic" thing as I term it. That was unexpected. My Slip Lead Thread on Boxerforum. I have had one or two that get it. But a lot more "blow back" than I expected???

Lot of those dogs won't move!! And leash re-activity when some of them do! I honestly thought it was, simply use a proper tool, defined by me as a regular collar and leash a prong collar a Slip Lead or a martingale, position it properly and off you go! 

But it looks like ...not so much??? It's apparently about more than the tools.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z009qQ91u5c


If you have a look at this interview you will see that Cesar didn't benefit or have control as much as you would think. Like other gifted dog-men (women) they are forced to perform , to make good TV , in a limited time frame , with action. Lots of training is done so subtly with time and patience and waiting -- same with horses .
CM basically was left with nothing , not even the rights to a "whisperer" name.
Barbara Woodhouse of the "walkies" if anyone remembers her had a gift to read a dog and move them subtly into good behaviour . She was exploited and made to become a caricature of herself,
just like Cesar , for the sake of entertainment.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't buy some of the stuff, particularly the perceived ease of correcting a problem instantly on camera. When you see him take a dog and make a couple of corrections and suddenly they're perfect leash walkers. Not.

Most of us can do this and it will work that way with initially with a stranger dog. The dog does not know you and he watches his back. He won't do much of anything because he is being handled by a stranger. IMO what you're seeing is not a sudden miracle communication from CM to the dog, but just simple instinct not to rock the boat because he dosen't know how the new handler will react. 

Give that leash reactive dog time to get to know the handler and he will try to pull the same thing with him. 

It seems like the important thing and one he always has going for him is "Not from day one, not ever". It's a fresh start and he's really not having to break long developed bad patterns because they never happened when he was controlling the dog. 

I think it is harder for the owner and off camera and after the brief initial work with CM there are still struggles between owner and dog. This could prove frustrating for many when they expect the same instant results.....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Unfortunately I can't cite a source for once.  But I either read or saw the show where CM had said he deeply regrets promoting the Alpha rolling thing so strongly! I know I heard that but can't find it and by and large the hater's don't really care in any case.
> 
> Generally speaking most of the folks that watch his show "think" they see what they need?? But for the most part they don't get it.
> 
> ...


 
StoneV , think about this and WolfyDog's posts in helping resolve your dogs door bolting.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I just watched the episode with the white GSD and the woman in a wheelchair. He put a backpack on the dog before they went for a walk. His explaination was that the dog can only do one thing at a time carry the pack or pull on the leash. He said in addition it gives the dog something to do.

Is this a form of "redirect" and is it effective?

As far as the bolting out the back door goes, still a work in process. I started yesterday having her sit 3 feet back from the door then I wait just outside the door. We're up to about 3 minutes. She has total concentration on my eyes. The second I may look distracted she thinks it's a release and tries to bolt. THIS is going to take a while.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the release is the release - it doesn't mean that she can go out so release her and ask her to do something else.
surprise doggy - gothcha !


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> the release is the release - it doesn't mean that she can go out so release her and ask her to do something else.
> surprise doggy - gothcha !


Good idea. I'll try that today. This is day 8 of her heat and may not be the best time to start this, but what the heck. She's got another male stray outside our fence. He woofed once about 5 minutes ago and she wants out! Not happening.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Give that leash reactive dog time to get to know the handler and he will try to pull the same thing with him.


I'll just say ...yes they my "try."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well this time another trainer (Jeff Gellman) very similar approach and he explains the "magic!" Seems pretty straightforward and simple to me??

"Tension" can't travel up the leash if the leash is loose! But the problem is , as "I" perceive it, the people that struggle tend to think "well if the leash is loose how can I control my dog??

I say if you "expect" a dog to give you a problem ...he will! Keep the leash loose and I say you can "fake it!"

Cesar says "Take a deep breath and relax!" But here is the "magic" revealed.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo&ab_channel=SolidK9Training


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't buy some of the stuff, particularly the perceived ease of correcting a problem instantly on camera. When you see him take a dog and make a couple of corrections and suddenly they're perfect leash walkers. Not.
> 
> Most of us can do this and it will work that way with initially with a stranger dog. The dog does not know you and he watches his back. He won't do much of anything because he is being handled by a stranger. IMO what you're seeing is not a sudden miracle communication from CM to the dog, but just simple instinct not to rock the boat because he dosen't know how the new handler will react.
> 
> ...


 Here is what I know, not much. 

When I hand off Shadow to a 'stranger' there is a shift in her behavior. Why? Because I am what she is most afraid of losing. I am her biggest resource, and the source of her anxiety. With someone else she has nothing to 'guard', and I use that term loosely.
So when CM takes a stressed, freaked out dog from it's stressed, freaked out owner there is a dramatic and instant shift that you see on camera. Add to that the fact that dogs are masters of reading and manipulating us, because they know us, much harder with someone they don't know and you have 30 minutes of 'instant' results. 
Now, if the owners are smart enough to bury the signals the dogs are reading and they follow the guidelines, with a moderate dog they can maintain. In tougher cases you see him remove the dog to his center. The viral episode of Holly the Lab showed CM getting schooled. He got cocky and over confidant and a dog that needed an actual trainer served him his ass on a platter.
He is a good guy, he has a calm confidence that is contagious and a way with animals, but he is not, not, not a trainer.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well this time another trainer (Jeff Gellman) very similar approach and he explains the "magic!" Seems pretty straightforward and simple to me??
> 
> "Tension" can't travel up the leash if the leash is loose! But the problem is , as "I" perceive it, the people that struggle tend to think "well if the leash is loose how can I control my dog??
> 
> ...


She does well with the prong collar on walks. What I usually do is take her out back to release some energy before the walk. That's helped a lot. The one part that is a problem on the walk is when people bend down and start calling her. I have been ignoring them and putting her in a sit with my back toward the people. Some get the idea that she is in training, other's persist and I have to tell them to please walk on.

I watched the video with the PB in the shelter. I think that the canned air is an excellent idea to take her to the next level with the stranger calling. She has "tells" too and she will focus on people to get their attention. A little air should bring her back and break her focus on them. 

When she starts to get a little ahead of me on a walk, I use the command "stay with me" and she drops back to slack leash.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Here is what I know, not much.
> 
> When I hand off Shadow to a 'stranger' there is a shift in her behavior. Why? Because I am what she is most afraid of losing. I am her biggest resource, and the source of her anxiety. With someone else she has nothing to 'guard', and I use that term loosely.
> So when CM takes a stressed, freaked out dog from it's stressed, freaked out owner there is a dramatic and instant shift that you see on camera. Add to that the fact that dogs are masters of reading and manipulating us, because they know us, much harder with someone they don't know and you have 30 minutes of 'instant' results.
> ...


* "I rehabilitate dogs. I train people,” *says Cesar Millan.

People have labeled him a dog "trainer" but that's not what "he" says he is. By and large most of his shows are devoted to working with owners because in most cases they are the source of the problem! 

On his new show Cesar 911 there was a couple who did not get the dog back! He felt they were to incompetent to keep her uncontrol! (My words not his )

I think you give a pretty good assessment!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> The one part that is a problem on the walk is when people bend down and start calling her. I have been ignoring them and putting her in a sit with my back toward the people.
> When she starts to get a little ahead of me on a walk, I use the command "stay with me" and she drops back to slack leash.


 Sounds like your doing fine I have a couple of observations but ^^^ this??

So she is not paying attention to them and people are calling her???


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

Stonevintage, I don't chime in often and I know this is a little off topic but I thought I might share what I thought was never going to happen with my GSD who bolted out the back door and ran around barking as he checked his perimeters. Not so great with neighbors all around.

It was when I read about the importance of the solid down stay. It took a long time but he has it - after 6 months of reinforcing it. I can now go out the back door, leaving it open and him in a down. I can go down into the yard and pick up his toy. He doesn't budge. He gets released and it's party time. He didn't get much of a correction when he broke it, he just got taken in the house right away and no party for him. 

But I could never get him to do it until he had that down stay solid. This might have been mentioned in here many times but I always enjoy your posts and the dedication you show so I thought I would share. 

I am no expert but I am consistent as are other family members. I learn so much from your posts and others and feel happy to have this resource.

I understand how hard it is when people approach and want to engage with my boy - I ain't making friends with my responses and it goes against my nature to be so blunt - it's always uncomfortable for me. Best to you.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you MacD! I understand what you are saying about the solid sit/stay. My next step has been to train this on the long line and then bring that outside the fence when it was solid. 

The training videos I have seen show to use the long line to do this long sit and stay first then go to off lead. It seems the back door bolting with the squirrel problem has me attempting to do this without the long line. 

I'm thinking now, that maybe I can incorporate and train these two at the same time but at different times throughout the day (in the yard), they are so closely related and one would reinforce the other.

Thanks for the tip


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Sounds like your doing fine I have a couple of observations but ^^^ this??
> 
> So she is not paying attention to them and people are calling her???


Yes, she will pay attention to them every time. What I have been doing when they get within about 25 feet and will be passing us is put her into one of the shop doorway alcoves in a sit/stay and stand in front of her until the people pass by. Yes, people do stop and call her - it's crazy. 

I discussed this on another post and several have had this happen to them also. Just not thinking people. She broke her sit/stay at an outdoor restraunt a couple of weeks ago because a couple a few tables were calling her. She proceeded to drag empty table chairs with her to get to them. I had to give her a harsh correction and she yelped. They looked horrified and I had to ask them what they thought the outcome would be - or if they thought at all.....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I think his timing is off (on the slow side), his criteria for behavior is not as clean as it should be and as a result of those two things his training is confusing, he isn't as good at reading dogs as he thinks he is and as a result he has fights break out at the DPC that could have been easily avoided. He isn't a very good trainer.

His grasp on dog behavior and learning theory is severely misguided in many ways and based on old wives tales and confirmation bias. Particularly the dominance theory, and the tired dog is a good dog thing he always does. Obedience should happen regardless of the energy and exercise level of the dog. Dominance theory is bull****.

Things I do like about him. He will correct a dog. He has a marker for punishment. He is consistent. He sets boundaries and is willing to enforce them. He genuinely cares about the animals he works with. Despite the fact his theory on training is misguided and lacks mastery he does many practical things that can quickly be beneficial to checking a dogs bad behavior. I think he is a better role model for training than his polar opposite the clueless Victoria Stillwell.


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## ODINsFREKI (Jul 30, 2013)

have seen only clips of his work. It appears he is good at training people better than his is at training dogs. His specialty is problem dogs and managing their owners. He has a good personality as well so he sells on television. Television is like junk food so only take in small bits at a time and never depend on it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Yes, she will pay attention to them every time. What I have been doing when they get within about 25 feet and will be passing us is put her into one of the shop doorway alcoves in a sit/stay and stand in front of her until the people pass by. Yes, people do stop and call her - it's crazy.
> I discussed this on another post and several have had this happen to them also. Just not thinking people. She broke her sit/stay at an outdoor restraunt a couple of weeks ago because a couple a few tables were calling her. She proceeded to drag empty table chairs with her to get to them. I had to give her a harsh correction and she yelped. They looked horrified and I had to ask them what they thought the outcome would be - or if they thought at all.....


Uh ...wow!!! I am stunned!!

That is just not something I had ever considered!! I'd observe with Rocky, that long after his "people" issue was solved. If I stop because someone has asked about him. He stands calmly by my side and smiles. And the vast majority of people admire him but not many are interested in getting close!

I'd be curious if other owners of BLK GSD's have seen this??

I would like to see the info you have on teaching the Down Stay using a long line??

But since Down Stay got mentioned ... I happened upon this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaVvwbT7iYw&ab_channel=SolidK9Training

Should help.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I think his timing is off (on the slow side), his criteria for behavior is not as clean as it should be and as a result of those two things his training is confusing, he isn't as good at reading dogs as he thinks he is and as a result he has fights break out at the DPC that could have been easily avoided. He isn't a very good trainer.
> 
> His grasp on dog behavior and learning theory is severely misguided in many ways and based on old wives tales and confirmation bias. Particularly the dominance theory, and the tired dog is a good dog thing he always does. Obedience should happen regardless of the energy and exercise level of the dog. Dominance theory is bull****.
> 
> Things I do like about him. He will correct a dog. He has a marker for punishment. He is consistent. He sets boundaries and is willing to enforce them. He genuinely cares about the animals he works with. Despite the fact his theory on training is misguided and lacks mastery he does many practical things that can quickly be beneficial to checking a dogs bad behavior. I think he is a better role model for training than his polar opposite the clueless Victoria Stillwell.


 Just to be anal I'll say that the only thing three dog trainers will agree on is what one of them is doing wrong! 

Tons of people know about "Training Calmness" into a dog because of you! I pass it along now! You've help more people than you know! 

That being said I'd like to take the opportunity to award you a well deserved Houndie!:










My future Boxer and my guest thank you! 

Back on point yes I tend to agree.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I would like to see the info you have on teaching the Down Stay using a long line??


Here's what I have in mind Chip. It could be called a "Modified recall long line game".


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Here's what I have in mind Chip. It could be called a "Modified recall long line game".


Ok that strikes me as reasonable but ... it looks to me like something I've done "after" I have a reliable Down/Stay and a "reasonable" recall.

I have always opted for a Solid Stay and then Down as a safety. Come here takes to much processing for the dog. "Stay" is simple and it can stop forward motion and then follow that with a "Down!" 

I think Jeff's approach is a lot easier then the long line for that. 

But the back door and the squirrels. Is it just that she bolts out the back door or is it she sees a squirrel and then bolts??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

** Comment removed. Has no bearing on this discussion**

On dogs:
Could have plenty of success with dogs with less controversy, just by being who he is, and using less dominance theory baloney. Dogs respond to him because he is calm and confident and expects them to. When a dog does not, for whatever reason, well, he is as befuddled as everyone else. I think he is a bully to 90% of the dog clips I have seen with him in them, meaning, he uses force where it is really not necessary. 

Of course he has started from 0, and made a lot of money, I think he thinks he helps people and dogs. He is famous. 

I don't like his technique, nor his show. I read his book. I think he bases what he does on outdated theories, and has success because what he does works most of the time. Sometimes I think he just naturally reads dogs -- he does what he does without thinking and then goes backwards and explains why it worked, but never why he chose to do what he did. Just because something works, doesn't mean it isn't unnecessary or even harmful to the dog.

I think way too many people watch his show and try to fix their dogs the way he fixes dogs on the program, and a lot of people end up bullying dogs that are totally different, and I think it isn't helpful at all. But he has many disciples out there.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Ok that strikes me as reasonable but ... it looks to me like something I've done "after" I have a reliable Down/Stay and a "reasonable" recall.
> 
> I have always opted for a Solid Stay and then Down as a safety. Come here takes to much processing for the dog. "Stay" is simple and it can stop forward motion and then follow that with a "Down!"
> 
> ...


We'll see if it is too complicated. I think she will be successful by the 5th or 6th try. I will try it a few times and quit if it is confusing her but right now, it's a combination of 3 things she knows. She loves challenges if I make it fun game. She knows the sit and laydown very well. My only reason for the long line is because she will get distracted and take off to squirrel chase. I'm not a big fan of treat training to keep her focus but I will use that initially with this exercise. 

I will probably try this tomorrow and will post the results on a new thread. This has been getting off too off track on the op.

The bolt thing is always squirrel related. She is so fast and hits the same three trees every time, they're about 60 feet away from each other. If there is one in the front yard - she pretty much ignores it because she knows she has no chance of catching it. There is a squirrel in the tree at least 60% of the time, she always hits the trees in order, closest first. (I have a black walnut tree, a cherry tree and 3 cone producing pines - a squirrel haven!)If no squirrel in the tree, she is scenting the ground beneath the tree to see if one was recently at that tree. If there is a squirrel she will hit the tree launching straight up to where her nose is about the 6 foot height claws raking the bark. Really intense. We discussed this also on another thread and at this point an e-collar was recommended by Bailiff and others.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The better question to ask to all the people who hate him is: "What have you done?"


That's an interesting criteria. Do you apply it to everything or just dog training? Is it necessary to _be_ a doctor to have an opinion about a doctor that you didn't particularly like? 

In any case, I haven't seen anyone say they "hate" him, that's a pretty strong word.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> We'll see if it is too complicated. I think she will be successful by the 5th or 6th try. I will try it a few times and quit if it is confusing her but right now, it's a combination of 3 things she knows. She loves challenges if I make it fun game. She knows the sit and laydown very well. My only reason for the long line is because she will get distracted and take off to squirrel chase. I'm not a big fan of treat training to keep her focus but I will use that initially with this exercise.
> 
> I will probably try this tomorrow and will post the results on a new thread. This has been getting off too off track on the op.
> 
> The bolt thing is always squirrel related. She is so fast and hits the same three trees every time, they're about 60 feet away from each other. If there is one in the front yard - she pretty much ignores it because she knows she has no chance of catching it. There is a squirrel in the tree at least 60% of the time, she always hits the trees in order, closest first. (I have a black walnut tree, a cherry tree and 3 cone producing pines - a squirrel haven!)If no squirrel in the tree, she is scenting the ground beneath the tree to see if one was recently at that tree. If there is a squirrel she will hit the tree launching straight up to where her nose is about the 6 foot height claws raking the bark. Really intense. We discussed this also on another thread and at this point an e-collar was recommended by Bailiff and others.


 Ok I'll let it go in a sec but ... of course the "Pro's" are going to recommend an E collar! It's the quickest most humane and easiest way to train a dog "especially" in an off leash situation!!! 

But I'm not a "Pro" and I got's time on my side! If you have the long leash ...you already have the solution to your squirrel problem!! 

You can train your dog to "chose not to chase squirrels" bet it would only take once!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Ok I'll let it go in a sec but ... of course the "Pro's" are going to recommend an E collar! It's the quickest most humane and easiest way to train a dog "especially" in an off leash situation!!!
> 
> But I'm not a "Pro" and I got's time on my side! If you have the long leash ...you already have the solution to your squirrel problem!!
> 
> You can train your dog to "chose not to chase squirrels" bet it would only take once!


How do I do that once?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> How do I do that once?


You said ... going off topic (here) and you'd start a thread.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> You said ... going off topic (here) and you'd start a thread.


No, I said I would start a new thread tomorrow with the results of the long line training.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No, I said I would start a new thread tomorrow with the results of the long line training.


 Yes yes you did! I do have a tendency to half read or change thinks I read to better suit my point. 

OK the long line thing. This is my theory of how you can do this based upon my understanding of the "KMODT" and the first couple of chapters of that book.

You'll need a heavy leash about 6 feet and cut the handle off it (you maybe able to find a used one at a thrift shop) you'll make a drag leash and get the dog used to dragging it around get the dog used to it being there every now and then say stay! If she does not stop immediately!

Step on the leash and repeat! If you do that for a week or two it may solve the back door dashing?? 

Won't fix the squirrel thing however. For that this where the long line will come into effect! What you'll do is remove the short leash and attach the long leash. The dog will only know a leash is still there. If she takes off after a squirrel??? 

Let her go don't say word right before the leash is past you?? Stand on the leash and wait! When she hits the end of the leash ... Bam instant change of direction??? And you say "NO!" 

Your point will be made! The "next" time she will most likely "choose" not to chase that squirrel??

Your dog could die if she has an out of control habit of chasing "critter's" if this is to "extreme" for you??? Then an E-Collar is going to be the tool of choice!

But ... I'm not a "Pro." My suggestion is from the Homie School of Dog Training and as I am want to say ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sorry, but no. I will not put my dogs life at the risk of "theory". I cannot express to you how fast she is going by 20 feet out. It would snap her neck in an instant.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Sorry, but no. I will not put my dogs life at the risk of "theory". I cannot express to you how fast she is going by 20 feet out. It would snap her neck in an instant.


Chip, I will try to get a video of her bolts for you tomorrow. If I place the camera high on a ladder I think I can get it in two shots. The runs to all three trees takes about 6 seconds provided she does not find one in a tree. 
She's like a frickin greyhound and knows the runs well. Even to try to dead stop her 6 feet out the door could cause neck injury. You'll see what I mean if I can get the video.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I would bet her neck would be fine and you would be the one hurt Stone, if you tried standing on the leash like that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I would bet her neck would be fine and you would be the one hurt Stone, if you tried standing on the leash like that.


Yea, thought of that. Just not a good idea for us.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, thought of that. Just not a good idea for us.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXWufVaySY


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## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Stonevintage- try impulse control games and work on engagement through doorways (use 6ft leash). Make going in and out of door a game. She has to hold a sit stay as you open the door (if she breaks sit-close door) waits until you are out and you release her to you, then play going back in. Use high value treats or toy. The game adds value to going back inside as well.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Stonevintage .. a couple of things for impulse control:

Kyleigh used to go ape poop after squirrels. I've done three separate things all with huge success:

1 - She was on a 15 foot tie-out on a martingale collar and she went after a squirrel. She boomeranged, yelped and never did it again. It happened so fast I didn't even have a chance to say NO. She was 11 months old, 50 pounds, and perfectly fine. 

2 - impulse control - I used a flirt pole to teach Kyleigh WHEN she was allowed to go after something. I wrote a huge post in here about 2 months ago, if you're interested in reading it ... lots of information on what I did / how I got her impulses under control 

3 - bomb proof down / stay - and I tied her leash to the door knob. So I put her in a down stay - door was open, leash was tied to the door (6 foot leash). She saw a squirrel (a very common sight in my neighbourhood, so we certainly didn't have long to wait). She went after the squirrel, door closed on her butt, she came to a dead stop. Did this two more times with the leash tied to the front door, she never moved. 

Now? I can leave every door in the house open and there can be anything in the front / back yard and she won't move.


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

Kyleigh said:


> Stonevintage .. a couple of things for impulse control:
> 
> Kyleigh used to go ape poop after squirrels. I've done three separate things all with huge success:
> 
> ...


Ive read some of your posts...Its Amazing!! You are like a perfect example of a perfect GSD!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Sorry, but no. I will not put my dogs life at the risk of "theory". I cannot express to you how fast she is going by 20 feet out. It would snap her neck in an instant.


 Hey ....full disclosure! The fundamental principle is sound! 

If a full 15 feet is to much??? You could shorten the distance 1 foot 2 foot??? NO, followed by a quick stop, would get the point across. Might take more than once however??

NO, means nothing if you can't enforce it. 

I taught my Boxer to chase rabbits to the North Mountains and not South Highway in the desert off leash and with the use of the word "NO!"

I doubt many "Pro's" would have said that can be done???

E-collar is a lot simpler.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I would bet her neck would be fine and you would be the one hurt Stone, if you tried standing on the leash like that.


Hey!! I said "effective" I didn't say easy or without risk of personal injury!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXWufVaySY


Oh snap!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kyleigh said:


> 2 - impulse control - I used a flirt pole to teach Kyleigh WHEN she was allowed to go after something. I wrote a huge post in here about 2 months ago, if you're interested in reading it ... lots of information on what I did / how I got her impulses under control


 Can you point us to the post??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Chip, I will try to get a video of her bolts for you tomorrow. If I place the camera high on a ladder I think I can get it in two shots. The runs to all three trees takes about 6 seconds provided she does not find one in a tree.
> She's like a frickin greyhound and knows the runs well. Even to try to dead stop her 6 feet out the door could cause neck injury. You'll see what I mean if I can get the video.


So it's not the back door per se, it's the squirrels beyond them??


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Can you point us to the post??


Here you go ... and it was in a thread for Stonevintage too LOL

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-way-i-can-stop-prey-drive-3.html#post7235498


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kyleigh said:


> Here you go ... and it was in a thread for Stonevintage too LOL
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-way-i-can-stop-prey-drive-3.html#post7235498


 Thank you. I'll add it to my collection!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ruby'sMom said:


> Stonevintage- try impulse control games and work on engagement through doorways (use 6ft leash). Make going in and out of door a game. She has to hold a sit stay as you open the door (if she breaks sit-close door) waits until you are out and you release her to you, then play going back in. Use high value treats or toy. The game adds value to going back inside as well.


She'll have to clarify but I'm of the impression is not "simply" a threshold thing??

I't's the squirrels beyond the doorway?? A high level distraction!


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