# nice schutzhund take down!



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Watch the take down at 1:04. Not sure if the guy tripped but it was fun to watch!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Woah!!! The dog never even let go!


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

:shocked: It looks like the dog grabbed the decoys leg and they went tumbling. Hope they both were okay! That GSD should see a chiropractor...


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Did you watch a little further in where the dog kind of loses his guarding bark and lets out a "woowoowoofwoo" while guarding? (around 1:40, I think)

My read on it is that he was a little shook up by the tumble and then the decoy continued to press him hard. The dog had to kind of regroup and wasn't sure what was going on. His tail is bushed out and it's wagging back and forth a lot, in what I consider to be a bit of insecurity.

The routine goes on and it's all familiar and so he starts getting a bit pissed at the decoy. He does a nice courage test. I also like how he really is pulling on the sleeve, not just along for the ride.

I'd say this is a dog who works largely out of his prey drive (and I bet that that is encouraged and is mostly what he does in training) and he finds himself pushed over into defense for a bit and is a bit uncomfortable working in defense. But he rebalances himself and carries on without totally losing his cool. Really, just the tail and the bark show how he's trying to figure out what's going on here. A nervy dog wouldn't have been able to handle the decoy intensity and pressure after being shook up like that.

A dog who was used to that type of work and/or to working out of defense or with a lot of fight drive would probably have gotten more pissed at the decoy and wouldn't have been as shaken up (and wouldn't have had to regroup). On the other hand, that dog might have not outed at some point or might have started chewing or moving on the grip--because the dog was driven up by the tumble and would have seen it as an escalation of the fight.

Nice pedigree on this dog, though: SG, ED NORMAL ZW 78 Kinski vom Heidhof - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog did not grab the decoys leg . He was secure on the sleeve and never let go .


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> the dog did not grab the decoys leg . He was secure on the sleeve and never let go .


It looked like the dog's legs got tangled in the decoy's legs, to me.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> It looked like the dog's legs got tangled in the decoy's legs, to me.


I thought the same thing. Maybe the helper just tripped over the dog's leg. 
They both seemed to be okay after the fall. I'm just impressed with the fact that the dog never let go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

looked at the video several times . The decoy tripped because the dog is gripping the mans legs . As soon as they come out of the spin and tumble the dog once again tries to hold on to the mans legs .
Previously I had said the dog did not grab the decoys legs , sorry about that . I took that to read the dog went for the leg instead of the sleeve. apologies.

I don't see that he was shook up , he instantly made full body contact in grappling the man's legs trying to stop him. The rip on his bark was more of a scold from the dog. 
Not understanding the comment about the tail being bushed out. That is just the length of the hair . Dogs don't puff tails the way cats do. Tail wagging -- look at Javir Talka Marda 



 lots of tail wagging .


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

very impressive! i dont even think the thought crossed his mind to let go and get him again after the decoy recovered from the tumble. he just rolled with it. Very cool. I was a little confused and slightly annoyed by the heel work though. Arent the front legs of the dogs supposed to be even or relatively even with the handlers legs for it to be a proper heel? Seemed to me the dog was more out in front of his handler having to dance a bit to keep looking back and still stay mostly on track. 

I ask because thats what i've learned is a proper heel, is the dogs front legs being even with the handlers legs.


i like Javir! he's one bouncy boy. That last hold i think its called where he just freezes and stares the decoy down... that was pretty amusing actually.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I could take that dog and convert him to PSD in heartbeat....really like what I see. His sire is known for producing strength in temperament.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is proper Schutzhund heeling - the position is a bit different than AKC/CKC heeling.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KZoppa said:


> very impressive! i dont even think the thought crossed his mind to let go and get him again after the decoy recovered from the tumble. he just rolled with it. Very cool. I was a little confused and slightly annoyed by the heel work though. Arent the front legs of the dogs supposed to be even or relatively even with the handlers legs for it to be a proper heel? Seemed to me the dog was more out in front of his handler having to dance a bit to keep looking back and still stay mostly on track.
> 
> I ask because thats what i've learned is a proper heel, is the dogs front legs being even with the handlers legs.



Depends on who you ask. To me, yes, my dogs shoulders should be even with mine. I use the same position for Schutzhund, SDA, AKC.... My dogs are probably considered a bit too "crowdy" for full points AKC obedience but I don't like forging and I believe a dog can still heel very animated and powerful in that position.

However in protection they aren't really looking at the precise position of the heeling (at least, I hope they aren't.....). You will see dogs heel in obedience that are basically perfect but in protection they might be ever so slightly forged and (in my opinion) should focus on the helper, not the handler's face.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ShenzisMom said:


> :shocked: It looks like the dog grabbed the decoys leg and they went tumbling. Hope they both were okay! That GSD should see a chiropractor...


The grabs the decoy with the legs, I think that is what got him out of balance, you can see it later on when he does it again.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This is a takedown plain and simple. He may have tripped up the decoy but he was doing what he needed to do to take down the "bad guy". He had a lot of fight through out the routine and I think he enjoyed every bit of it. Great GSD!


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

That dog is art in action. Beautiful.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Not understanding the comment about the tail being bushed out. That is just the length of the hair . Dogs don't puff tails the way cats do.


You've never seen this? I've seen it many times, although it's not really common. It's like all the hackles including the tail are raised. Sometimes, though, it's just the tail hackles. 

I've seen it more than once, and on more than one dog. It's a very high state of excitement/arousal. 



> Tail wagging -- look at Javir Talka Marda....lots of tail wagging .


Tails also wag for many different reasons--from tension to balance to excitement to joy to conciliation.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> The grabs the decoy with the legs, I think that is what got him out of balance, you can see it later on when he does it again.


Thats what I said? ":shocked: It looks like the dog grabbed the decoys leg and they went tumbling. Hope they both were okay! That GSD should see a chiropractor...  "

Did you read the thread? You would have realized that Carm made the same mistake when reading my post. oke:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ShenzisMom said:


> Thats what I said? ":shocked: It looks like the dog grabbed the decoys leg and they went tumbling. Hope they both were okay! That GSD should see a chiropractor...  "
> 
> Did you read the thread? You would have realized that Carm made the same mistake when reading my post. oke:


Urm... I agreed with you.  .... oke::rofl:


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

:toasting: My apologies! Without a morning coffee I am a little less than useless. Have a pint on me


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Kinda off topic, but is Javir Talka Marda _really_ tall or is that helper _really_ short?? At the beginning with the helper in the blind, seems like Javir is barely jumping and is _easily_ at the helpers head level!

Nevermind- I posted that prior to watching the whole video. I see Javir has a female handler and the handler *is* taller than the helper.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Cliff said 
I could take that dog and convert him to PSD in heartbeat....really like what I see. His sire is known for producing strength in temperament. 

I think so too! Like everything about this dog , great pedigree SG, ED NORMAL ZW 78 Kinski vom Heidhof - German Shepherd Dog

I do not see any evidence of Blackthorns concerns with the dog being uncomfortable at all , anywhere .
Have never heard of pilo errection on the tail feathers . The tail carriage here has more to do with his croup and tail set .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 
.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Interesting insights Christine - I love getting the benefit of experience like yours. I'll be watching dogs from now on that had things go "wrong" with the routine and see how they react to it and how it carries on into the rest of their performance. 

Interestingly, I've just seen how a 'disturbance', lets say, carries over into other elements of protection just this weekend with my own dog - really changes how you see and understand the dogs. Gryff has been reliably clean in the blind search and hold-and bark for quite a while now, after some work. He just figured it out after a while, we did not use any aversives to clean him up. He just figured out that be clean = get the sleeve. 

So we were trying different exercises on Sunday, and one time he came around the blind and got really dirty, and his tone was pissed, and he was up in the helper's face. We all wondered why he was so angry? It wasn't like him. Then the next new exercise we tried, we figured it out: the previous H&B before him getting dirty, he did it correctly, but we did not let him have the sleeve. So the second time around, he was mad that he did not get the sleeve that time as we were trying something different. It was eye-opening to see him carry that sense of injustice over not getting the sleeve into the following exercises and expressing his anger and outrage at not getting what he felt he should have gotten. 

I know a Javir son that is police dog material and if he pans out will be going into service - wagging tail and all.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Looking again at the Javir video--his tail doesn't wag at all during his guards after an out--in fact, he is super intense and frozen.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I do not see any evidence of Blackthorns concerns with the dog being uncomfortable at all , anywhere .
> Have never heard of pilo errection on the tail feathers . The tail carriage here has more to do with his croup and tail set .
> 
> Carmen
> ...


I'm not talking about tail carriage, but pilo-erection. It's very mild in this video and it's possible that it's not what it is here. It's easier to see in person and in some dogs with longer tail hairs, it's much more obvious.

I do think the dog went through some processing following the tumble. I think he is a very good dog with good nerves--that does not mean that he was unaffected by what happened. I think if he had been exposed to something like that in training, he might not have been as affected or might have been more pissed. I kind of think he was processing and the decoy presses him very hard right after the tumble in the re-attack after the out. So his unease shows, to me--and reveals, perhaps, some holes in his training that perhaps should not exist at this level of competition (IMO).

I think that the dog is not really working in defense or fight drive--not that he can't, but that he isn't normally worked that way. I could be totally wrong about that and might have another opinion if I saw the dog work in person or took a grip from him myself (which I suck at, by the way!). I think judging from a video is always more uncertain than seeing the dog in person.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I like that dog... a lot


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It is very normal for a dog to react differently to something new. In this instance the dog has probably done this routine hundreds of times WITHOUT a spill regardless of the reasons for the spill. So we're in new territory for the dog. It would not be natural for the dog to comport itself the same at this point until the dog regains control, IF they seek to regain the control. The reaction of the dog to the situation is very resilent and satisfactory for a thinking working dog. Come back is good!. JMO


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

That dog has the most beautiful head-he almost looks like a show dog


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

If I only caught the last part of the original video...I'd have to credit the helper. You wouldn't have known he'd been taken down.
Sorry, a bit off topic; but sometimes I get distracted watching the helpers. I admire their ability to stand there with a dog barking in their face.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> That is proper Schutzhund heeling - the position is a bit different than AKC/CKC heeling.





Liesje said:


> Depends on who you ask. To me, yes, my dogs shoulders should be even with mine. I use the same position for Schutzhund, SDA, AKC.... My dogs are probably considered a bit too "crowdy" for full points AKC obedience but I don't like forging and I believe a dog can still heel very animated and powerful in that position.
> 
> However in protection they aren't really looking at the precise position of the heeling (at least, I hope they aren't.....). You will see dogs heel in obedience that are basically perfect but in protection they might be ever so slightly forged and (in my opinion) should focus on the helper, not the handler's face.


 
thanks guys. I appreciate your insight. It helps a lot in understanding this. 

I do have to say i'm not sure how i feel about the dog forging ahead but i also prefer my dogs next to me in a heel or slightly behind me. Might be because i'm a slight control freak or i've had too many dogs trip me up so them being even slightly in front is not good for my walking skills lol


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