# Breeding An Old German Shepherd



## tylerfraser

Hello, I have an 8 year old german shepherd. I'd like to breed her. Is she too old? Should I take her to the vet first to make sure she is ok to be bred?
Thank you,
Tyler


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## Bella67

She's too old.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Bella67 said:


> She's too old.


I agree, in fact the vet visit for her spay could save her life. I had a friend delay a spay on their senior bitch and not only did she almost die from pyrometra the bill from the vet ended up being almost $2000. Scary time and they were lucky she made it.


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## royals17

Don't breed her, she's too old.


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## Bella67

Good thing you did ask for advice first. Sadly, most people don't.


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## MaggieRoseLee

If you love your girl just go back to your breeder! Its important we support responsible breeders by going to them and enable them to keep up the good work!

Have you seen this -->>http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Magwart

We just pulled an 8.5 y.o. dog with great genetics into rescue....and she had life-threatening pyometra too. The spay saved her life too. Our bill wasn't as high as MaggieRoseLee's friend's bill, but it was still a lot (nearly $900). 

Risking an old dog's life seems like far too big a risk to me, esp. for a dog who's been good and loyal her whole life. These last years are the years to cherish her, and let her enjoy her 'retirement.'


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## lhczth

Yes, she is too old. 

Spaying is not a bad suggestion. Friend dealt with pyo in too older females. Very expensive and very scary.


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## Sunflowers

In human years, your GSD would be 55 years old.


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## Nikitta

****, I'm glad I just got Jasira spayed and she's only 3 but the vet said she had over-large odd shaped ovaries. He doubted she could ever get bred anyway. I wouldn't have because she came back with mild hip dysplasia after I had her x-rays done. I won't pass that along.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Aside from the obvious reasons, do you know what you are doing as far as breeding? Not trying to offend, I just don't know your background? Do you have decades of experience and have successfully bred gsd's for the betterment of the breed and have you had them in dog sport, titled... I mean I'm just not sure if this would be your first time or if you are a long standing hobby breeder or what? Like I said, I don't know your background BUT if this would be your first time, I would stay away from it and leave it to the professionals, plus your dog is older, these are her golden years. Just love her and leave her be as far as the breeding.


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## martemchik

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Aside from the obvious reasons, do you know what you are doing as far as breeding? Not trying to offend, I just don't know your background? Do you have decades of experience and have successfully bred gsd's for the betterment of the breed and have you had them in dog sport, titled... I mean I'm just not sure if this would be your first time or if you are a long standing hobby breeder or what? Like I said, I don't know your background BUT if this would be your first time, I would stay away from it and leave it to the professionals, plus your dog is older, these are her golden years. Just love her and leave her be as far as the breeding.


So the prerequisite to breeding a litter of dogs...is decades of experience breeding dogs?


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## Mumma1

martemchik said:


> So the prerequisite to breeding a litter of dogs...is decades of experience breeding dogs?


No, but the ideal is that even if you hadn't raised a single litter before, you would do enough research to know that 8 years is too old/risky.


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## Liesje

I would not breed an 8 year old for the first time, no.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Mumma1 said:


> No, but the ideal is that even if you hadn't raised a single litter before, you would do enough research to know that 8 years is too old/risky.


Thank you


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## wolfy dog

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> if this would be your first time, I would stay away from it and leave it to the professionals,


Every professional once was a newbie plus "professional"doesn't make it necessarily good. Puppy mills are also professional breeders, earning their money by producing dogs.
As soon as someone mentions the word "breeding" we get a flood of the well-known comments and questions on basically why they should forget about it.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

wolfy dog said:


> Every professional once was a newbie plus "professional"doesn't make it necessarily good. Puppy mills are also professional breeders, earning their money by producing dogs.
> As soon as someone mentions the word "breeding" we get a flood of the well-known comments and questions on basically why they should forget about it.


You are right about the professional word, and how even back yard and puppy mill breeders can be considered professional. In that case let me rephrase. "Leave it to the reputable breeders"


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## martemchik

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> You are right about the professional word, and how even back yard and puppy mill breeders can be considered professional. In that case let me rephrase. "Leave it to the reputable breeders"



How does one become reputable if the breeding is only left to the established reputable breeders? Are new people never allowed to breed?


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## Galathiel

Not if their breeding stock is 8 years old maybe.


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## wolfy dog

martemchik said:


> How does one become reputable if the breeding is only left to the established reputable breeders? Are new people never allowed to breed?


Phrases like these have become cliches over time and don't mean anything and it feels like people are copying them without really knowing what it means. There is not a definite standard for "reputable" because it is subjective.

If we would only go to experienced breeders, we will lose the breed in the next few (human) generations.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well stated WolfyDog.

Though I think there are some minimum standards which most could agree on, the rest is very subjective and really open to free market influences.


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## selzer

If the OP isn't just a whelp wanting to stir the pot, then he has gotten his answer and is long gone. 

8 years old is not too old to produce a litter, but having a first litter at 8 is way too risky. The problem is, that she can and probably WILL get pregnant if she is given the opportunity. 

It is then, that you have to decide whether to spay abort, or try to let her go through with it. And the chances of complications skyrocket after the age of 5 or 6 for first-time litters. A large-breed bitch is closing into geriatric at this point, and the chances that she will not have the required stamina to produce a litter, the chances are very good that it will be very small, meaning much larger puppies, labor may not start, my start and stop, and she may not be able to push the large pups out.

Possible C-section. Will the instincts of motherhood kick in as strongly in an older bitch? Maybe. If she did not have them naturally? Maybe. Will she bounce back from a c-section? Maybe -- lots of maybes. 

What you have to really ask yourself is whether you have the stamina to raise a litter if the bitch rejects them or is lost in the process. If you are ok with that, well, no one here is going to condone what you are doing. Read up on the process and pay special attention to when to call in the vet and get your bitch help if she is having trouble.


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## tylerfraser

She has been bred several times. And she turns 9 this June.


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## selzer

Then it depends on the bitch and her current health. 

I got a litter of seven out of Jenna 11 months ago. She will be 10 in August. She delivered naturally, and had no problems. Her previous litter turned 2 January 29. She is an excellent dam and has never had a still born pup, nor has she lost one after birth. 

She is retired now, only because she is 9.5 years. 

It will depend on your bitch. 

If she hasn't had a litter for a number of years, that also can be an issue, like, if she had a litter at 2 and 3 and now 5 years later you want a last litter out of her, that would be harder on her than if she had a litter each year. Also could be tougher for her to conceive.


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## tylerfraser

She had puppies last year and she looks great. I think I will breed her in the next 2-3 months.


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## huntergreen

martemchik said:


> How does one become reputable if the breeding is only left to the established reputable breeders? Are new people never allowed to breed?


i would think a starting a kennel/breeding program requires a bit of thought, some basic knowledge along with a basic plan. any one can get a male and female and bingo puppies will happen. what does he know about his females pedigree ? what parameters will be used when selecting the male? what traits is he looking for? is the op prepared to take back the pups if things go wrong? with the little info we have about the op, it is hard to advise this person.


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## huntergreen

wolfy dog said:


> Phrases like these have become cliches over time and don't mean anything and it feels like people are copying them without really knowing what it means. There is not a definite standard for "reputable" because it is subjective.
> 
> If we would only go to experienced breeders, we will lose the breed in the next few (human) generations.


you are correct of course, but i would think there is a minimum amount of knowledge required before one intentionally breeds a dog. otherwise we should just start supporting the local pet shop.


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## martemchik

huntergreen said:


> i would think a starting a kennel/breeding program requires a bit of thought, some basic knowledge along with a basic plan. any one can get a male and female and bingo puppies will happen. what does he know about his females pedigree ? what parameters will be used when selecting the male? what traits is he looking for? is the op prepared to take back the pups if things go wrong? with the little info we have about the op, it is hard to advise this person.


But then why not ask those questions?

Instead, someone who has just as much limited experience with the breed, absolutely no experience breeding dogs, doesn't have any idea what titling a dog means, and probably has never discussed with a real life breeder what they take into consideration when they're breeding dogs, makes a statement about what someone else should do when they're breeding dogs? "Leave it to the professionals." It's just not necessary to even make that statement in the first place.

Look at yourself in the mirror first before telling others what they should be doing with their dogs, especially when you have extremely limited information coming from a short post on the internet.


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## pyratemom

tylerfraser said:


> She had puppies last year and she looks great. I think I will breed her in the next 2-3 months.


If you are really firm on this decision I would get a really good vet check done, complete with blood work to make sure she is able to deliver a healthy litter. Tell your vet that you have a planned breeding so he/she will look for the appropriate things. I assume you have done your homework on hips, etc for the sire you have planned. Eight is no longer a young dog so be prepared to help with the litter, possibly bottle feeding, cleaning the pups, etc. She may need more help as the pups get older too as she will get tired of being pulled at and nipped by those sharp little puppy teeth. It isn't an easy job but if you know what you are looking at going into it then you will be more prepared.


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## wolfy dog

If I were to breed my dog, I would only do so after all the health checks and with the consent of her breeder, let him find the match and go from there under his supervision. By then I will be a new breeder with knowledge on how to raise good pups (physically and mentally sound), which would mean to me "reputable", even though it would be my first bred litter.


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## Jenny720

If the health checks are clear and you are going to breed her- it is a good idea to notify your vet of possible c-section as a backup plan if there are any complications. Make sure your vet or a vet will be around in the days close to her due date- in case if needed you will know where to go.


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## selzer

Even for an older bitch, it is better not to need a c-section. I think I would just wait until day 56 or so and get an x-ray to ensure that we have a regular sized litter, not just one or two huge puppies. Also having an accurate count of the pups in there, can help you know whether or not she is done. When they are older, they may get tired out sooner, and if a pup doesn't show up, that can be fatal. Also, I would make sure the gal gets regular exercise, and plenty of healthy food to give her the stamina she will need to get through whelping.

Keep vanilla ice cream, carnation condensed milk on hand to give her a boost in the middle of the process, maybe a couple of boosts. 

Good luck. Hope all goes well.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

This is super ridiculous, I mean... OP why? Like why do you want to breed an 8 year old dog? What is your purpose? What is it like is it the money? Is it because she is some super spectacular show or protection sport champion that you feel the need to pass down her genes? Everyone else, can shut it. I don't want anyone else's responses, I just want to hear from the OP. That's all. OP: Dogs shouldn't have to go through all of this for our pleasure or our finances. Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old. I doubt she wants this. How about just love her and care for her in her old age and let her be. Darnn!


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## GatorDog

My female's dam was 8 when she had her last litter. 8 puppies and a healthy delivery.


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## Jack's Dad

GatorDog said:


> My female's dam was 8 when she had her last litter. 8 puppies and a healthy delivery.


Troublemaker.


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## Liesje

If she's been bred before, it's a different scenario than breeding for the very first time at that age, but still not sure why the OP would come here and ask. If you're going to do it and you think it's fine, then why ask. I've seen and heard of dogs bred even older and been OK, but they were already experienced brood bitches being bred by very experienced breeders (experienced as in having bred or helped whelp dozens of litters, seen just about everything there is to see and know what to do when things go wrong and how to recognize trouble). It's not a black and white thing, but the decision depends on way more than just a general question/vague information so I'm guessing the majority of this board are going to err on the side of caution and say no.


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## martemchik

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> This is super ridiculous, I mean... OP why? Like why do you want to breed an 8 year old dog? What is your purpose? What is it like is it the money? Is it because she is some super spectacular show or protection sport champion that you feel the need to pass down her genes? Everyone else, can shut it. I don't want anyone else's responses, I just want to hear from the OP. That's all. OP: Dogs shouldn't have to go through all of this for our pleasure or our finances. Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old. I doubt she wants this. How about just love her and care for her in her old age and let her be. Darnn!



Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat.

You seem to know a lot about how this dog feels without actually meeting her.


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## GatorDog

Jack's Dad said:


> Troublemaker.



Can't help myself.


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## selzer

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> This is super ridiculous, I mean... OP why? Like why do you want to breed an 8 year old dog? What is your purpose? What is it like is it the money? Is it because she is some super spectacular show or protection sport champion that you feel the need to pass down her genes? Everyone else, can shut it. I don't want anyone else's responses, I just want to hear from the OP. That's all. OP: Dogs shouldn't have to go through all of this for our pleasure or our finances. Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old. I doubt she wants this. How about just love her and care for her in her old age and let her be. Darnn!



Whether or not you want our responses, you are going to get them, this is the nature of posting on a forum. If you just want to have the OP respond, send a PM, and from your tone, I doubt it will be answered. 

What do you really know about it? Are you a breeder? Do you know how much some bitches truly LOVE to mother their puppies? Do you know? Have you been there? Have you bred an eight year old bitch and found she had trouble with it? Do you know that bitches are just as eager to be bred as dogs are to mate with them? Do you know? What do you know really? Are you a breeder? Because if you aren't then you really don't know what a healthy eight year old bitch is capable of in that area. 

Jenna is 9.5 years old in April. I have chosen not to breed her again. Her puppies are a year old in April. She is still happy to share everything with the two young bitches. She is a super mother and it is hard to not breed her because of how much actual enjoyment she gets with her puppies. She loves young pups. If I ever had a orphaned litter, I would use her even if she could not provide milk for them. 

I have heard of a ten year old bitch who had 10 healthy puppies. This is NOT like a 70 year old lady having a 10 pound baby. It is not comparable. 63 days of pregnancy is not comparable to 9 months. 2 months of taking care of the babies is not comparable to 2-30 years of taking care of them. We freak out because the only comparison we have is with humans, but dogs have none of the stress that humans go through. They have stress and whelping a litter can be stressful, but it just isn't in comparison to what humans go through to have babies. It is comparing apples to oranges and as my pre-cal/trig teach drummed into our heads so many years ago, ya just can't do that.


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## Lilie

GatorDog said:


> My female's dam was 8 when she had her last litter. 8 puppies and a healthy delivery.


Ummm...I think we were ordered to "shut it". Rebel!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

martemchik said:


> Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat.
> 
> You seem to know a lot about how this dog feels without actually meeting her.


You really gave me a good laugh. Lol. She wouldn't go into heat if she didn't want to have puppies? That's like saying a female wouldn't get her period if she didn't want to get pregnant. Lol. It's basic biology. Female animals/ species don't really have a choice on coming into heat/periods/ whatever else you call it for other animals. Unless there is some odd and rare species I don't know about that can choose to come into heat? Lol this was a good read though. Thanks


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## gsdsar

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> You really gave me a good laugh. Lol. She wouldn't go into heat if she didn't want to have puppies? That's like saying a female wouldn't get her period if she didn't want to get pregnant. Lol. It's basic biology. Female animals/ species don't really have a choice on coming into heat/periods/ whatever else you call it for other animals. Unless there is some odd and rare species I don't know about that can choose to come into heat? Lol this was a good read though. Thanks



I agree that the dog should not be bred at this age. 

But I disagree in regards to what I quoted. Humans go through menopause. It's the bodies way of telling us no more kids. 

Now that dogs are living longer, I have seen many that stop having heat cycles. Same thing. While the person/dog is not in control of there fertility, the body does know.


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## Nikitta

GatorDog said:


> Can't help myself.


LOL Gator. You crack me up.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

You know what... I was just thinking about what martemchik said and... I mean, can bitches really choose to come into heat if they want to get pregnant that bad? Lol... I might be really ignorant on this. Maybe this is why I feel so against this/ breeding because I always thought, dogs don't necessarily want this, it's just what humans want, BUT!!! if a dog CHOOSES to go into heat because she really wants to be pregnant then shoot! I STAND corrected! I will apologize to everyone supporting breeders and go on about my merry way and just focus on other threads. I just sincerely, honestly, have NeVER heard of this phenomena !?,I didn't know bitches could choose this. That's kind of amazing! Haha! You learn something new everyday! Female humans got the short end of the stick :-(


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

gsdsar said:


> I agree that the dog should not be bred at this age.
> 
> But I disagree in regards to what I quoted. Humans go through menopause. It's the bodies way of telling us no more kids.
> 
> Now that dogs are living longer, I have seen many that stop having heat cycles. Same thing. While the person/dog is not in control of there fertility, the body does know.


I agree that our err biological clock does know. However, menopause is something human females can't control. We will go through menopause at some point and we don't really have a choice. I mean we could take hormones and stuff to stay young, hot, and fresh and keep dippin' it and doin' it lol, but eventually we will all go through it. I'm not sure if it is the same for dogs?


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## Sunflowers

Against breeding? Then why do you have a purebred dog?


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## selzer

Having puppies is natural. Bitches will breed to dogs given the opportunity and get pregnant on every heat cycle, if they are healthy and not restrained. 

Their reproductive cycle goes through the same process whether they get pregnant or not, which is not quite the same for humans. The progesterone hits their parts and does a number on them whether or not they are bred. Sometimes false pregnancies are so like to the real thing that the bitch has milk and goes into a false labor. 

With excellent nutrition and good longevity in the lines, a bitch can be quite young at eight, while another is losing a step at five or six. It depends on the bitch. 

Really the whelping process is hard. It is the only discomfort the bitch goes through. And by the next day, she is generally back to herself. Once the puppy is out, you wouldn't know she was in any pain at all, save occasional tearing up of papers. Whelping can be dangerous. But most bitches make it through whelping fine, even the older bitches. 

With a c-section, there is pain from the surgery, and the puppies will be right down there digging where the stitches are. That is tougher on a bitch than natural birth.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Sunflowers said:


> Against breeding? Then why do you have a purebred dog?


Because I rescued him?. Or I guess I could have just left him wasting away, starving, in someone's backyard the rest of his life? I think not... I have rescued other dog breeds... This dog is a gsd. And what? If there were no more gsd's in the world, I would move on to the next breed of dog that needs help. There will always be dogs that need help. Good question though!! Thanks sunflower


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

selzer said:


> Having puppies is natural. Bitches will breed to dogs given the opportunity and get pregnant on every heat cycle, if they are healthy and not restrained.
> 
> Their reproductive cycle goes through the same process whether they get pregnant or not, which is not quite the same for humans. The progesterone hits their parts and does a number on them whether or not they are bred. Sometimes false pregnancies are so like to the real thing that the bitch has milk and goes into a false labor.
> 
> With excellent nutrition and good longevity in the lines, a bitch can be quite young at eight, while another is losing a step at five or six. It depends on the bitch.
> 
> Really the whelping process is hard. It is the only discomfort the bitch goes through. And by the next day, she is generally back to herself. Once the puppy is out, you wouldn't know she was in any pain at all, save occasional tearing up of papers. Whelping can be dangerous. But most bitches make it through whelping fine, even the older bitches.
> 
> With a c-section, there is pain from the surgery, and the puppies will be right down there digging where the stitches are. That is tougher on a bitch than natural birth.


Thank you for the explanation. What I really want to know is, do bitches choose to go into heat because they like/want to be pregnant? And by the same token, can they choose to not go into heat if they don't like being pregnant? That statement martemchik posted really was so thought provoking!! I never even knew it was a possibility for females of any species to choose to go into heat? I think people have sort of answered this? But it just didn't seem like a direct/ literal yes or no answer so Im still unsure?


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## selzer

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Thank you for the explanation. What I really want to know is, do bitches choose to go into heat because they like/want to be pregnant? And by the same token, can they choose to not go into heat if they don't like being pregnant? That statement martemchik posted really was so thought provoking!! I never even knew it was a possibility for females of any species to choose to go into heat? I think people have sort of answered this? But it just didn't seem like a direct/ literal yes or no answer so Im still unsure?


If a bitch is healthy, she will go into heat. I have not known any to not go into heat due to age, but I believe that could be a possibility. If she is healthy and is bred when in standing heat she will probably become pregnant.

A bitch's instinct is to breed when she is in standing heat. I do not know how she can possibly connect that to the whelping process or having puppies. But her instinct will also drive her to clean and care for her puppies, some are much better than others. 

Some bitches can be excellent dams, but will be ready for their pups to go home at eight weeks. Others take motherhood to a whole other level. They play with their puppies and they enjoy their company, long after the eight weeks. This is not just instincts, but preference. Dogs are complex critters with instincts, preferences, who can create and maintain strong bonds with creatures of other species. They can be trained, and trained to disobey if it is unsafe (seeing eye dogs). They have both choices and instinct, preference and instinct, training and instinct. The great lie is that bitches suffer through motherhood, and are forced to be bred, forced to have puppies, forced to raise puppies as though it is some terrible, awful ordeal. There are many things we subject dogs to that are far more irritating, frustrating, stressful than having a litter of pups. Like cramping them into a crate all day, or taking some dogs to the vet. I have never had a bitch loose a tooth over having a litter of puppies, but I have had a bitch break a tooth trying to get out of a crate. 

I don't believe bitches need to be bred to be complete. But breeding bitches is not some evil thing, not to the bitch herself. It could be bad for the breed, if you are breeding poor temperament or health, and it may be bad for pet population. But it is not bad for the bitch. That is simply a lie.


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## qbchottu

BARBIElovesSAILOR: you may think your outrage and vitriol is helping to deter people from breeding older females, but really your fear mongering only does a disservice because people get fed up with the righteous spiel and go on to do their own thing. By spreading myth and using scare tactics, you do the opposite of what you wish to do. 

If this bitch has been bred before and whelped well, if she comes from a dam line that is known to have healthy litters at older ages, if OP has the experience and foresight to prepare for a riskier pregnancy, if this is a planned breeding with a goal in mind, then it is not for us to say what age is too old. 

Take a look at Palme Wildsteigerland - this female has had about 12 litters, worked the farm when she was over 10, and lived a long healthy life. 
V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land

On the other hand, there are 3 year old females that have wonky heats, can't breed naturally, and need artificial help every step of the way. In no way is a younger female better able to handle a pregnancy than an older one just based on age. 

It depends on the female ultimately. 

This female was recently bred to Drago v Patriot - she will be 10 this fall. Her last litter with Drago was when she was 8, and she produced a healthy litter of 12 pups. 
Bonny von der Hagenmühle ? working-dog

I'm not entirely sure what gives you the experience and expertise to make such sweeping judgements on which females are allowed to be bred.


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## Sunflowers

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Because I rescued him?. Or I guess I could have just left him wasting away, starving, in someone's backyard the rest of his life? I think not... I have rescued other dog breeds... This dog is a gsd. And what? If there were no more gsd's in the world, I would move on to the next breed of dog that needs help. There will always be dogs that need help. Good question though!! Thanks sunflower


Interesting.
Because Sailor was a GSD, then you chose to get another GSD.

Both purebred, products of breeding with human intervention.


You say you are against breeding, yet benefit from it.


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## katieliz

"Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat".

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing...last week there was some dialogue on an episode of "Girls" that I'd never heard before and I can't get it out of my head, it seems to apply here...

"Bitches be cray"...

thinking of a bitch having a heat because she "wants" to be bred is close to the most hysterical thing I've ever heard. The rest of the discussion...not gonna touch it with a 10 foot pole except to say that the only people who should be breeding a senior bitch (or breeding any bitch actually), are those who would not have to ask any questions on a message board about if it's okay.

ps...and I wanna say I'm havin' some trouble finding BarbieLoves' "outrage and vitrol". Seems more like just a differing opinion that, considering the OP's apparent inexperience, might be based in reality??? But I confess to reading the thread quickly, so maybe I just missed the o&v.


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## Nigel

:rofl: "that" maternal instinct!!


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## Sunflowers

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I know I want a gsd one day again, sailor made me completely fall in love with the breed you see.


There you have it. But you are against breeding.


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## misslesleedavis1

Nigel said:


> :rofl: "that" maternal instinct!!


This^
We (all females of every species) have cycles for a reason, that reason is to procreate.


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## selzer

The OP may be more experienced with breeding than with message boards. If he were more experienced with message boards, he would have created a thread asking breeders when they retire their dams and sires and for what reasons. 

But, we don't know the OP at all. In general on this site, we want more information about everything except anything to do with breeding. If you are here at all, for whatever reason, you probably aren't a good candidate to breed dogs, but you are better than anyone else out there for everything else.


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## qbchottu

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> This is super ridiculous, I mean... OP why? Like why do you want to breed an 8 year old dog? What is your purpose? What is it like is it the money? Is it because she is some super spectacular show or protection sport champion that you feel the need to pass down her genes? Everyone else, can shut it. I don't want anyone else's responses, I just want to hear from the OP. That's all. OP: Dogs shouldn't have to go through all of this for our pleasure or our finances. Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old. I doubt she wants this. How about just love her and care for her in her old age and let her be. Darnn!





BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> You know what... I was just thinking about what martemchik said and... I mean, can bitches really choose to come into heat if they want to get pregnant that bad? Lol... I might be really ignorant on this. Maybe this is why I feel so against this/ breeding because I always thought, dogs don't necessarily want this, it's just what humans want, BUT!!! if a dog CHOOSES to go into heat because she really wants to be pregnant then shoot! I STAND corrected! I will apologize to everyone supporting breeders and go on about my merry way and just focus on other threads. I just sincerely, honestly, have NeVER heard of this phenomena !?,I didn't know bitches could choose this. That's kind of amazing! Haha! You learn something new everyday! Female humans got the short end of the stick :-(





katieliz said:


> ps...and I wanna say I'm havin' some trouble finding BarbieLoves' "outrage and vitrol". Seems more like just a differing opinion that, considering the OP's apparent inexperience, might be based in reality??? But I confess to reading the thread quickly, so maybe I just missed the o&v.


Perhaps slow down and read the thread to understand the nuances? 

Do people with simple differing opinions curse, make sweeping statements, attack others, and dictate who may or may not post on the thread? Forgive me if I'm mistaken


----------



## katieliz

okee-dokee, I just read every word you quoted, and read it slowly and carefully, and I don't see the curse, the sweeping statements (except where somebody else makes the comment about breeding relative to her (BarbieLoves), falling in love with the breed), or any "dictating" who "may or may not" post in the thread, I see where BarbieLoves is "not interested" in hearing from others but from the OP relative to their reasoning, which falls under the category of personal interest not dictating, which truthfully, I was kind of wondering about too, although I would not have chosen the phrase "everyone else can shut it", which is the strongest outrage and vitrol I see in her posts. Oh, okay, the stuff about bitches "choosing"...I read as kinda tongue in cheek, but truthfully...in a way I thought the same thing. And Sue, come ON, nobody with any kind of breeding experience is gonna ASK these kinds of questions. Seriously?

Carry on...


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Sunflowers said:


> There you have it. But you are against breeding.


Thank you for the opportunity sunflowers. I will explain myself for the last time about my feelings for the breed. I love gsd's . But if no one ever bred them? Where would I be, what would. I do? I would be just fine. Probably rescuing some other breed or any other mix-mutt. And I would most likely be on a forum for this breeds or mixes. So? I love german shepherds, but the world would still go round if they ep ever existed. I'm not for breeding them , but all for rescuing, though I will say breeding dogs is legal in this country! Just like carrying firearms, eating animals, freedom of speech. Etc... Many other topics. While some people may not agree with certain laws in the country, if they are legal there is not a darn thing we can do about it until laws change. So will there be breeders? Heck yea! There are some breeders who care about the dog or what they are doing. There are some breeders that don't give a lick and just want to make money. Both are legal. I have more respect for someone who is responsibly breeding, but for me, if responsible breeders and irresponsible breeders of gsd never existed and there were no gsd's I would be just dandy, and find some other cause to help with. The end. Hope that answers your Q?


----------



## GatorBytes

katieliz;6669193
[B said:


> The rest of the discussion...not gonna touch it with a 10 foot pole *except to say that the only people who should be breeding a senior bitch* [/B](or breeding any bitch actually), *are those who would not have to ask any questions on a message board about if it's okay.
> *
> ps...and I wanna say I'm havin' some trouble finding BarbieLoves' "outrage and vitrol". Seems more like just a differing opinion that,* considering the OP's apparent inexperience,* might be based in reality??? But I confess to reading the thread quickly, so maybe I just missed the o&v.


I think this is the direction the thread should have gone.

Same old cast of characters taking this thread down a different path and validating what the OP set out to do. Wonder if we'll see his pups in the Urgent rescue thread in a year or two.

Congrats to the new BYB on your first litter when it comes. Sigh.


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

katieliz said:


> "Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat".
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing...last week there was some dialogue on an episode of "Girls" that I'd never heard before and I can't get it out of my head, it seems to apply here...
> 
> "Bitches be cray"...
> 
> thinking of a bitch having a heat because she "wants" to be bred is close to the most hysterical thing I've ever heard. The rest of the discussion...not gonna touch it with a 10 foot pole except to say that the only people who should be breeding a senior bitch (or breeding any bitch actually), are those who would not have to ask any questions on a message board about if it's okay.
> 
> ps...and I wanna say I'm havin' some trouble finding BarbieLoves' "outrage and vitrol". Seems more like just a differing opinion that, considering the OP's apparent inexperience, might be based in reality??? But I confess to reading the thread quickly, so maybe I just missed the o&v.


I thought it was funny too! But then I was like, wait,.. Is there some truth to it? So I asked the question but no one answered me as of yet. One person did answer me that female dogs like to care for their puppies and it is also maternal instinct. Was it selzer? But no one has actually answered me yet if a dog can choose to go into heat so she can have puppies one day. I'm still waiting. If someone DID answer me and I didn't get it, I apologize.


----------



## qbchottu

GatorBytes said:


> Congrats to the new BYB on your first litter when it comes. Sigh.


It's not his or the dog's first litter - where are you getting this info?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I thought it was funny too! But then I was like, wait,.. Is there some truth to it? So I asked the question but no one answered me as of yet. One person did answer me that female dogs like to care for their puppies and it is also maternal instinct. Was it selzer? But no one has actually answered me yet if a dog can choose to go into heat so she can have puppies one day. I'm still waiting. If someone DID answer me and I didn't get it, I apologize.


No. I can imagine that environmental factors may possibly play a part in skipping a heat only based on the fact that us human females can skip ovulation due to stress and hormonal imbalances, illness, not 100 on whether or not that applies to dogs. I think the majority of unfixed females have natural heat cycles that enables them to procreate.


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

misslesleedavis1 said:


> No. I can imagine that environmental factors may possibly play a part in skipping a heat only based on the fact that us human females can skip ovulation due to stress and hormonal imbalances, illness, not 100 on whether or not that applies to dogs. I think the majority of unfixed females have natural heat cycles that enables them to procreate.


Thank you darling! Martemchik... I think we got our answer! ;-)


----------



## GatorBytes

qbchottu said:


> It's not his or the dog's first litter - where are you getting this info?


 Whether dogs first litter is regardless and not in my comment, so why that was brought forward

I think Katieliz summed it up nicely 
That's my answer to your question. K.


----------



## selzer

GatorBytes said:


> I think this is the direction the thread should have gone.
> 
> Same old cast of characters taking this thread down a different path and validating what the OP set out to do. Wonder if we'll see his pups in the Urgent rescue thread in a year or two.
> 
> Congrats to the new BYB on your first litter when it comes. Sigh.


Bitch already had litters before, so not first litter. 

Barbie, yes, I answered you, you didn't get it. Not sure if you can get it. Sorry. 

As for maternal instinct, a bitch that doesn't have it is really awful to try and get her to raise her pups. Muzzle her and let the pups suck for at least 24 hours, and then raise them by hand I guess. But if you have ever witnessed a bitch giving birth to puppies, first litter, you would see that instinct kick in. She knows she has to get the placenta off. She knows she has to clean that pup and make it squeak. She knows to stay right with them and keep them warm. The go for the teets, and she knows they need to be stimulted in order to potty. She may not know why she does what she does, but she does it all the same. It is instinct. And yes, they will carry all of this out without any sort of training, on their own, in a cave or den if need be.

Sometimes our domestication of the dog, our humanizing of them may effect their natural ability in this area. And we have heard of bitches who reject puppies or try to kill them. This is abnormal and such a bitch should not be bred again. But that doesn't mean there is not maternal instinct -- not sure if I called it that. But if I did, it is close enough. Some things you just have to see, be there to understand I guess. But if you have never than scoff away.

I can't get over the, well-if-there-are-no-more-GSDs-that's-ok-too attitude. I don't know if there is any way we can ever understand one another. I can accept that some people don't ever want to breed dogs, but the idea that they would be happy if the breed no longer existed, that is beyond my comprehension. I just hope there aren't too many people thinking like that.

I let my nieces watch the last litter be born. I am sure that at least two people of the up and coming generation will not be anti-puppies.


----------



## katieliz

qb...do you really feel that someone with much, if any, experience would not only ask if it's "okay" to breed a 8 year old bitch, but also if they should "take her to the vet" to have a health check first????? do you know that this poster does indeed have any experience whatsoever? 

BarbieLoves, I'm going to answer your question also...there is absolutely no chance based in reality that any bitch of any breed "chooses" to go into heat because she consciously, thoughtfully, wants to breed or wants to be a mother. These dogs are impossibly smart and sometimes almost human I admit...but the assumption that their heat cycles are anything but a biologic function is totally incorrect and a case of where I totally agree that we must NOT assign human emotions to our bitches. Or they be cray, lololol...

Now, I have seen bitches who were bred a few too many times (or at too advanced an age) who, after carrying and whelping their puppies had the unmistakable look on their faces saying, "oh, please, NOT THIS AGAIN". Yup, I've seen those bitches alright.


----------



## qbchottu

GatorBytes said:


> Congrats to the *new* BYB on your *first litter* when it comes. Sigh.





GatorBytes said:


> Whether dogs first litter is regardless and not in my comment, so why that was brought forward


It was brought forward because you said it clearly in your response. 

Your newest response clearly shows your ignorance and inexperience - whether it is the female's first litter or not is of monumental importance when answering the question. 

If it is her first litter, she is too old to be bred for the first time and answer is no. 
If it is not her first litter and she has whelped a healthy litter recently, then the answer is depends, and is based on the circumstance surrounding the breeding. 

So you see, that's why it matters


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Selzer- I think you are right that we will never understand each other or agree on this particular topic. However from what I read you were discussing that bitches will have a desire and instinct to care for their pups, and go through all the natural things to bring puppies into this world and care for them. However that wasn't my question. My question was if a bitch can CHOOSE to go into heat because she likes being pregnant or likes having babies. Your answer, is just an answer ONCE she is already pregnant. I'm talking about before... If that makes sense? I think someone already answered with a no. I kind of lean towards this too, that NO a bitch cannot choose to go into heat as much as humans cannot choose to menstruate if they want to have babies one day. As far as I know (I'm no phd) but I think it just happens. Due to... Nature and evolution or what have you. We don't choose to sexually mature or go through puberty or anything like that as much as other animals. Is this a wrong assessment? Trying to keep to the topic of dogs, basically, I just thought the statement was funny because I never for once thought bitches can choose to go into heat because they like to be bred. Haha


----------



## GatorDog

Lol at the judgement from people who have no experience and clearly very limited knowledge on the subject of breeding. If you think a female who's in standing heat is going to turn down any male, you're mistaken. If she's 8 and going through normal heat cycles, then she's breedable. And without any other info, no one here can judge as to whether or not OP is a BYB. Not everyone shares their entire personal life and every bit of detailed information with strangers over the Internet. Get your craigslist dogs and be happy.


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## katieliz

Sue, maternal instinct and "coming into heat due to a desire to breed" are two vastly different things. 

I have very deep roots in this breed and will save the discussion of what I've seen happen over the last sixty-some years because of indiscriminate, careless, and uneducated breeding for another time. Suffice it to say that for someone who grew up watching the best of the best, it's very, very sad.

Nothing personal to anyone here who breeds, and I also want to add that I know nothing about Czech, DDR, or working line German dogs, or the state of breeding those subtypes.


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

GatorDog said:


> Lol at the judgement from people who have no experience and clearly very limited knowledge on the subject of breeding. If you think a female who's in standing heat is going to turn down any male, you're mistaken. If she's 8 and going through normal heat cycles, then she's breedable. And without any other info, no one here can judge as to whether or not OP is a BYB. Not everyone shares their entire personal life and every bit of detailed information with strangers over the Internet. Get your craigslist dogs and be happy.


Iiii... Don't think anyone is arguing a female is going to turn down a male if they are in heat. I think the question is can a female choose to be in heat. Ummm NO. I have my craigslist dog, and he is great except he is a big clown. Anyone want to swap dogs? Jk hehe. Captain is fast asleep. He could give two licks about 8 yr old female gsd's being bred. *sigh*


----------



## selzer

Here ya go, I will just bold the pertinent part:



selzer said:


> *If a bitch is healthy, she will go into heat.* I have not known any to not go into heat due to age, but I believe that could be a possibility. * If she is healthy and is bred when in standing heat she will probably become pregnant*.
> 
> *A bitch's instinct is to breed when she is in standing heat. I do not know how she can possibly connect that to the whelping process or having puppies*. *But her instinct will also drive her to clean and care for her puppies*, some are much better than others.
> 
> Some bitches can be excellent dams, but will be ready for their pups to go home at eight weeks. Others take motherhood to a whole other level. They play with their puppies and they enjoy their company, long after the eight weeks. This is not just instincts, but preference. Dogs are complex critters with instincts, preferences, who can create and maintain strong bonds with creatures of other species. They can be trained, and trained to disobey if it is unsafe (seeing eye dogs). They have both choices and instinct, preference and instinct, training and instinct. The great lie is that bitches suffer through motherhood, and are forced to be bred, forced to have puppies, forced to raise puppies as though it is some terrible, awful ordeal. There are many things we subject dogs to that are far more irritating, frustrating, stressful than having a litter of pups. Like cramping them into a crate all day, or taking some dogs to the vet. I have never had a bitch loose a tooth over having a litter of puppies, but I have had a bitch break a tooth trying to get out of a crate.
> 
> I don't believe bitches need to be bred to be complete. But breeding bitches is not some evil thing, not to the bitch herself. It could be bad for the breed, if you are breeding poor temperament or health, and it may be bad for pet population. But it is not bad for the bitch. That is simply a lie.





BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Selzer- I think you are right that we will never understand each other or agree on this particular topic. However from what I read you were discussing that bitches will have a desire and instinct to care for their pups, and go through all the natural things to bring puppies into this world and care for them. However that wasn't my question. My question was if a bitch can CHOOSE to go into heat because she likes being pregnant or likes having babies. Y*our answer, is just an answer ONCE she is already pregnant. I'm talking about before... If that makes sense?* no it doesn't, I said clearly, if a bitch is healthy, she will go into heat -- nothing about choosing to do so.  I think someone already answered with a no. I kind of lean towards this too, that NO a bitch cannot choose to go into heat as much as humans cannot choose to menstruate if they want to have babies one day. As far as I know (I'm no phd) but I think it just happens. Due to... Nature and evolution or what have you. We don't choose to sexually mature or go through puberty or anything like that as much as other animals. Is this a wrong assessment? Trying to keep to the topic of dogs, basically, I just thought the statement was funny because I never for once thought bitches can choose to go into heat because they like to be bred. Haha


Well, there was this one bitch I had, that would choose to go into heat each and every time I signed her up for classes. :laugh: First day of class, without fail, she would start dripping. 
How I got a title on that bitch, still amazes me.


----------



## selzer

katieliz said:


> Sue, maternal instinct and "coming into heat due to a desire to breed" are two vastly different things.
> 
> I have very deep roots in this breed and will save the discussion of what I've seen happen over the last sixty-some years because of indiscriminate, careless, and uneducated breeding for another time. Suffice it to say that for someone who grew up watching the best of the best, it's very, very sad.
> 
> Nothing personal to anyone here who breeds, and I also want to add that I know nothing about Czech, DDR, or working line German dogs, or the state of breeding those subtypes.


Please read the bolded in my response to Barbie. I have NEVER suggested that a bitch comes into heat due to a desire to breed. They do desire it very much when they are in standing heat, but they are not desiring puppies, they are driven by instinct to mate with the male that is present. It is natural. It is unnatural to surgically remove the hormones and bits of their anatomy. But that is just going to spark enough material for another couple of dozen threads. 

I think that the instinct a bitch has drives her to mate with a male while she is in standing heat, and it drives her to care for her young when they are whelped. I don't know that they are different things. I think it is just her instincts. Some bitches who mate willingly enough reject or attack puppies, so a defficiency in the one does not necessarily mean the other is also defficient. I just don't know whether we chop up instincts into instincts to mate, instinct to care for her young, and so forth, I see instinct as a package deal, understanding that it will not be the same for all canines -- a dog can have strong instincts in some areas, and in other areas they may seem to be non-existent, but this is really not an area I have studied. The bitches I have had have all seemed to have great instincts for both breeding and for whelping and raising their young.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

opcorn:


----------



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

selzer said:


> "Please read the bolded in my response to Barbie. I have NEVER suggested that a bitch comes into heat due to a desire to breed."
> 
> So the answer is NO? Thanks... That's all I needed.


----------



## selzer

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Please read the bolded in my response to Barbie. I have NEVER suggested that a bitch comes into heat due to a desire to breed."
> 
> So the answer is NO? Thanks... That's all I needed.
> 
> 
> 
> And you would've found that way back in my previous post, quite clearly.
> 
> Not sure what point it makes for you though. If a bitch came into heat because she wanted puppies, then it would be ok, hunky dory to have all the bitches everywhere having puppies? It is almost as silly as suggesting that because a bitch does not come into heat because she wants puppies, breeding bitches is forcing them to have puppies, when you have it backwards: we are actually orchestrating breedings or no breeding at our whim, which means LESS litters all told. If it was up to the bitch, she would have two litters per year. Because we step in and prevent that from happening, she is bred fewer times -- is that ok, or should all bitches everywhere be allowed the freedom to mate at will?
> 
> If she mated at will, it would not be to another GSD, it would probably be to a rangy, mangy border collie mix from down the street. So then that would me more mixed breed dogs. And, as we know 25% of dogs in shelters are purebred, or that is the figure, 75% are mixes, which means more mixes. Is that what you want? I don't get it.
Click to expand...


----------



## katieliz

I think what we all want are fewer breeders breeding that don't know what they're doing. 

and I think that the craigslist reference was unkind and really mean spirited.

and I think that any statement by anybody can be twisted and re/misinterpreted to justify anybody's point of view or agenda, and sometimes only for the sake of argument because somebody takes something personal which was not meant to be.

but man, that craigslist dog reference was just plain and simple...mean spirited. we all love our dogs no matter where they came from. and KUDOS to anyone who gives a home and loving kindness to any dog from anywhere who needs it.

that's all from me about this.


----------



## Sunflowers

katieliz said:


> I think what we all want are fewer breeders breeding that don't know what they're doing.
> 
> and I think that the craigslist reference was unkind and really mean spirited.
> 
> and I think that any statement by anybody can be twisted and re/misinterpreted to justify anybody's point of view or agenda, and sometimes only for the sake of argument because somebody takes something personal which was not meant to be.
> 
> but man, that craigslist dog reference was just plain and simple...mean spirited. we all love our dogs no matter where they came from. and KUDOS to anyone who gives a home and loving kindness to any dog from anywhere who needs it.
> 
> that's all from me about this.



Why was it mean-spirited?



Alexis noted that some people are against any sort of breeding. 
She simply said that if they are of that mindset, to go to craigslist, get a dog, and be happy.

When I find interesting is that no matter where the dog is available for adoption, someone, somewhere, bred the dog, whether intentionally or not. So even if you go to rescue or craigslist, you are still indirectly supporting breeding. Unless you believe that all those dogs are mating and whelping in the streets.


----------



## Sunflowers

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Thank you for the opportunity sunflowers. I will explain myself for the last time about my feelings for the breed. I love gsd's . But if no one ever bred them? Where would I be, what would. I do? I would be just fine. Probably rescuing some other breed or any other mix-mutt. And I would most likely be on a forum for this breeds or mixes. So? I love german shepherds, but the world would still go round if they ep ever existed. I'm not for breeding them , but all for rescuing, though I will say breeding dogs is legal in this country! Just like carrying firearms, eating animals, freedom of speech. Etc... Many other topics. While some people may not agree with certain laws in the country, if they are legal there is not a darn thing we can do about it until laws change. So will there be breeders? Heck yea! There are some breeders who care about the dog or what they are doing. There are some breeders that don't give a lick and just want to make money. Both are legal. I have more respect for someone who is responsibly breeding, but for me, if responsible breeders and irresponsible breeders of gsd never existed and there were no gsd's I would be just dandy, and find some other cause to help with. The end. Hope that answers your Q?



I have to say, this is the most perplexing thing I have ever read on the German Shepherd forum.

I can't imagine a world without German Shepherds. To me, they represent the finest of what human beings can do, if they set their minds to it.

I waited 25 years to get one, am honored to own one, and consider myself lucky and blessed to have finally been able to have one in my life.


----------



## GatorDog

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> This is super ridiculous, I mean... OP why? Like why do you want to breed an 8 year old dog? What is your purpose? What is it like is it the money? Is it because she is some super spectacular show or protection sport champion that you feel the need to pass down her genes? Everyone else, can shut it. I don't want anyone else's responses, I just want to hear from the OP. That's all. OP: Dogs shouldn't have to go through all of this for our pleasure or our finances. Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old. I doubt she wants this. How about just love her and care for her in her old age and let her be. Darnn!


You're the one who brought up whether a dog "wants" to be bred or not. And everyone else pointed out that biologically, if she's still going into heat, then she's breedable. And as I already pointed out once before, if you've ever seen a bitch in standing heat, I highly doubt that she's being "forced" to do anything.


----------



## Lilie

katieliz said:


> qb...*do you really feel that someone with much*, *if any, experience would not only ask if it's "okay" to breed a 8* *year old bitch*, but also if they should "take her to the vet" to have a health check first????? do you know that this poster does indeed have any experience whatsoever?


Sometimes I think people post questions like that just so they can advertise that they are going to have a litter of puppies in the near future (or on the ground already). I've no doubt someone will IM them, "hey, where you located? I'm looking for a puppy". It's the internet, anything is possible.


----------



## Sunflowers

Lilie said:


> Sometimes I think people post questions like that just so they can advertise that they are going to have a litter of puppies in the near future (or on the ground already). I've no doubt someone will IM them, "hey, where you located? I'm looking for a puppy". It's the internet, anything is possible.


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Nigel

martemchik said:


> Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me._*" If the dog didn't want to be bred, she wouldn't go into heat.*_
> 
> You seem to know a lot about how this dog feels without actually meeting her.





GatorDog said:


> You're the one who brought up whether a dog "wants" to be bred or not. And everyone else pointed out that biologically, if she's still going into heat, then she's breedable. And as I already pointed out once before, if you've ever seen a bitch in standing heat, I highly doubt that she's being "forced" to do anything.


This is where she got that idea and posed her question.


----------



## martemchik

Alright, for all you geniuses out there.

First, dogs aren’t rational creatures. Neither is any other organism in the world except for humans. Humans are the only animals that make the RATIONAL decision not to have offspring when they are biologically ready and capable to do so. All other creatures, will have offspring when they can have offspring.

Second, a when a female dog’s body goes into heat. It is nature telling it to have puppies. The dog’s body and hormones are making the decision for the dog. Remember, it’s not a rational being, it follows what nature and biology says it should. Anyone that thinks any of a dog’s decisions are based on rational thought…needs to rethink some things about their own life. Every organism in the world is like this, if their bodies, or the environment tells them it’s not a good time to have offspring…they WILL NOT go into heat. If you don’t believe that this is the organism “making a choice,” there’s really nothing else left to be said.

Third, the only unnatural thing that occurs in regards to dogs breeding, is what Selzer pointed out…humans control when, if, and to what a dog is bred to. The PREVENTION of a litter is the unnatural thing. In the wild, a dog would be bred each time she goes into heat. More than likely, it wouldn’t go into heat more than once a year. The reason dog’s do it more frequently is that HUMANS remove their puppies from them and take care of the puppies for them. In the wild, a dog would still have to help raise the puppies past 8 weeks and more than likely wouldn’t come into heat as often as the hormones from breast feeding the puppies and then still having to take care of them would prevent a natural heat cycle from occurring in the way we see it in domesticated dogs today.

The statements “Dogs never asked to be forced to be bred at 8 years old” and “after carrying and whelping their puppies had the unmistakable look on their faces saying, oh, please, NOT THIS AGAIN” are completely ridiculous and HUMANIZING. You’re using human logic, not dog logic. The second statement…if you had no idea the dog had just had a litter, you’d probably see the same face and think the dog was just sad, or tired, you wouldn’t have a reason in your own head to understand WHY the dog looks like it does. You, as a human, have RATIONALIZED the dog’s facial expression and have connected the litter to the facial expression the dog is exhibiting. This is a completely normal HUMAN thing to do, we love to imprint our emotions on animals, so it seems natural, but yet is the craziest thing we probably do.


----------



## GatorDog

Nigel said:


> This is where she got that idea and posed her question.


Barbie posted her rant before Martemchik's response. 

And theoretically, the only reason a bitch goes into heat is to be bred. It's not like they copulate for pleasure. Their only purpose for going into heat is for reproduction. Its us, as humans, who get to decide when its appropriate or not.


----------



## Nigel

GatorDog said:


> Barbie posted her rant before Martemchik's response.
> 
> And theoretically, the only reason a bitch goes into heat is to be bred. It's not like they copulate for pleasure. Their only purpose for going into heat is for reproduction. Its us, as humans, who get to decide when its appropriate or not.


I think most people knew what he was implying, it was just worded poorly and could be easily misconstrued.


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## martemchik

It's really surprising to me that a male (me) has to explain to females how their own reproduction works. The fact that women are shocked by the news that their bodies will tell them when they can and can't have children is pretty disturbing to me.

Is it really news that even for home sapiens their bodies will not go through normal ovulation cycles (heat) if they are not healthy enough to take care of a developing fetus? Do you really think that other species are any different? You guys know we share the majority of our DNA with all creatures on this planet right?


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## Lilie

martemchik said:


> Second, a when a female dog’s body goes into heat. It is nature telling it to have puppies. The dog’s body and hormones are making the decision for the dog. *Remember, it’s not a rational being, it follows what nature and biology says it should. Anyone that thinks any of a dog’s decisions are based on rational thought…needs to rethink some things about their own life*. Every organism in the world is like this, if their bodies, or the environment tells them it’s not a good time to have offspring…*they WILL* *NOT go into heat*. If you don’t believe that this is the organism “making a choice,” there’s really nothing else left to be said.


 
Kinda makes you want to ponder the structure of the wolf pack. The alpha female is the only one that produces puppies. She's the only one that is bred. However, other females in the pack will go into heat at the same time, but they will not be bred. Those females might go into a false pregnancy and actually produce milk and help care for the litter of puppies the alpha female whelps. 

I wonder who's decision it is that the other females aren't bred. The males? The bitches? Maybe they all go out for a girls night out (that last the duration of the heat cycle) while the Alpha couple hang around and romance.


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## martemchik

Nigel said:


> I think most people knew what he was implying, it was just worded poorly and could be easily misconstrued.


Nope, it's clear that there are some people on this forum that have no idea how biology works. It's quite sad really as the last biology class I took was in my freshman year of high school.


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## martemchik

Lilie said:


> Kinda makes you want to ponder the structure of the wolf pack. The alpha female is the only one that produces puppies. She's the only one that is bred. However, other females in the pack will go into heat at the same time, but they will not be bred. Those females might go into a false pregnancy and actually produce milk and help care for the litter of puppies the alpha female whelps.
> 
> I wonder who's decision it is that the other females aren't bred. The males? The bitches? Maybe they all go out for a girls night out (that last the duration of the heat cycle) while the Alpha couple hang around and romance.


My assumption would be that the pressure from the alpha female is what causes this to happen. I don't know for sure, as I've never studied wolves, but I have a feeling its the environmental force (even from other pack members) that causes this to happen.


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## Lilie

martemchik said:


> My assumption would be that the pressure from the alpha female is what causes this to happen. I don't know for sure, as I've never studied wolves, but I have a feeling its the environmental force (even from other pack members) that causes this to happen.


I would ponder further that there is some sort of rational thought process happening within that pack to create the environmental force. Be it from the individual member or the entire pack.

Many of us have had the pleasure of witnessing the interaction between an intact male and intact female when she comes into standing heat. Or experienced the mind altering chaos that occurs when you attempt to keep them apart. 

Now consider 3 or 4 females in heat at the same time. I wonder how that male avoids the temptation. But, that would assume he'd have to have some sort of a rational thought process.


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## martemchik

Just quickly looked up the wolf thing...looks like a pack generally consists of the alphas and their offspring. Once the offspring are sexually mature, they leave the pack and try to find their own pack. So it’s not like there are 5 year old bitches in standing heat around the alpha male (who is usually their father). The idea that only the alphas breed is also just a “general” idea and there are plenty of recordings of when the lower bitches have litters as well.

Some might call what you describe rational thought, others will call it survival of the fittest. The strongest female prevents the others from mating. It happens in a lot of pack structures. That is probably not rational and it’s probably driven by instinct…

At the end of the day, neither of us know enough about the subject to have a real conversation about it and will just be throwing anecdotes we picked up here and there at each other to prove one another wrong. I can’t disprove the fact that there are other bitches in heat around a male wolf, because I don’t know when a wolf naturally has its first heat cycle. If it’s delayed until 2-3 years (I won’t assume that they have the same sexual maturity as dogs), then it can be inferred that they might leave the pack at that time or fight for breeding rights with the alpha.


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## Lilie

All righty then.


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## Gwenhwyfair

martemchik said:


> Actually, assuming she's still going into heat, that's nature saying "breed me." If the dog *didn't want to be bred*, she wouldn't go into heat.
> 
> <snipped>.


Your wording was a little wonky. But I understood what you were getting at, the drive to procreate is driven by hormones and hormonal cycles. Generally this is not something controlled by the higher reasoning parts of the brain in dogs or humans. (There's some good jokes there...but I'll leave it be. LOL!)

It's for the most part an autonomous function. Varies from species to species and environmental stresses can suppress, trigger or exaggerate hormone production. 

For instance, a female in a very poor state of health or starvation will often stop ovulating. 

I recently changed out some décor in one of my fish tanks and two fish that hadn't spawned in the several years I had them all of sudden got busy. I put some plants in that were good cover and tweaked water conditions which put them into what is termed 'breeding condition'. Their little fishie hormones kicked in and off they went.

I have to say, this has been one of the oddest threads I have read on this board. :crazy:


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## martemchik

I didn't realize I had to explain to people that their dogs don't think rationally and that humans aren't dogs. I didn't think I had to explain to women that if their bodies weren't capable of having offspring, they'd tell them that by not going through a cycle. I figured being the year 2015, most people (especially women) should know what kind of affect hormones and health have on the ability to have offspring. Figured that most women understand that their bodies go through monthly cycles because they are capable of having children, and in theory "want" to have children, and that it's the BRAIN of the woman that prevents that from occurring. It's kind of scary that as a twenty year old guy I have more of an understanding of how a female body works and that eventually it will (all on its own) realize that it can't have offspring because it's too old. So if we want to compare dogs to humans...clearly an 8 year old bitch's body has not told it that it's too old to have offspring.

I'm all for this bitch probably not needing to be bred...but the people need to give correct reasons for it and not just scream scare tactics from undereducated, inexperienced opinions that are not based in reason or reality. When that happens, that's when OP just leaves and does whatever they want anyways. If you give real reasons, explain things from experience and real knowledge of the subject, you might get through to the person, that's when they might change their mind. Not when you're freaking about the possible breeding of an "older" bitch and accusing them of doing it only for financial reasons.

Lesson learned to not expect much from the people on this forum when it comes to common sense and practical knowledge...


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## Gwenhwyfair

You are only 20 years old!

No kidding. I had you pegged at least in the mid 30s. So serious for someone your age.

Wowzers.

I think a couple of folks were messing with you a little bit......

On other forums when it got this silly we'd go off on a meme. Bacon was big for a while when we got tired of LOL cats. That's not allowed here though. It's how we handled threads like this. 

Anywho, I think the OP is LONG gone and it sounds like his mind was made up. I just hope it works out O.K. for the female and the puppies.


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## Jack's Dad

*


martemchik said:



I didn't realize I had to explain to people that their dogs don't think rationally and that humans aren't dogs. I didn't think I had to explain to women that if their bodies weren't capable of having offspring, they'd tell them that by not going through a cycle. I figured being the year 2015, most people (especially women) should know what kind of affect hormones and health have on the ability to have offspring. Figured that most women understand that their bodies go through monthly cycles because they are capable of having children, and in theory "want" to have children, and that it's the BRAIN of the woman that prevents that from occurring. It's kind of scary that as a twenty year old guy I have more of an understanding of how a female body works and that eventually it will (all on its own) realize that it can't have offspring because it's too old. So if we want to compare dogs to humans...clearly an 8 year old bitch's body has not told it that it's too old to have offspring.

Click to expand...

*


martemchik said:


> I'm all for this bitch probably not needing to be bred...but the people need to give correct reasons for it and not just scream scare tactics from undereducated, inexperienced opinions that are not based in reason or reality. When that happens, that's when OP just leaves and does whatever they want anyways. If you give real reasons, explain things from experience and real knowledge of the subject, you might get through to the person, that's when they might change their mind. Not when you're freaking about the possible breeding of an "older" bitch and accusing them of doing it only for financial reasons.
> 
> Lesson learned to not expect much from the people on this forum when it comes to common sense and practical knowledge...


 Can't wait to hear the women on the forum thanking you for the education about how their bodies work. :smirk:

Agree with the second quote.


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## Sunflowers

Jack's Dad said:


> Can't wait to hear the women on the forum thanking you for the education about how their bodies work. :smirk:
> 
> Agree with the second quote.


It's all new to me. Until Max posted, I thought I had a penis.


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## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> It's all new to me. Until Max posted, I thought I had a penis.


With today's medical advancements you can have one made, attached and kinda working if that's what you want. ...no worries, I won't judge you.


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## martemchik

Saphire said:


> With today's medical advancements you can have one made, attached and kinda working if that's what you want. ...no worries, I won't judge you.



But don't you dare breed a dog older than 8 years old!


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## Gwenhwyfair

:spittingcoffee:



Sunflowers said:


> It's all new to me. Until Max posted, I thought I had a penis.


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## Jack's Dad

Sunflowers said:


> It's all new to me. Until Max posted, I thought I had a penis.


 Wow, you don't?

You know how there is that, whats for dinner thread.

Maybe Max can start a ( What's with Women's Bodies thread).

You know, a little female anatomy, physiology, etc...

Kinda an ongoing educational thing.


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