# Defense drive / prey drive / protection training



## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

The last question I posted regarding when to start protection training with pups led to a nice discussion. Further it led me to read more about different drives dogs use during protection training and I was specifically interested in further discussion about defense drive.

My understanding is having a helper get barked around by a younger dog, around 7 - 8 months is designed to build confidence and hopefully the dogs defense drive. But from what I read this drive does not full develop until 18 months and if too much pressure is put on a young dog they can shut down. Because of this risk do some trainers skip this?

I am very curious to hear some example of protection training timelines for pups. Such as rag work 8 weeks - 4 months, 4 months - 7 months off for teething. 7 months - 1 yr barking at the helper with minimal pressure and rag work, and so on. Of course I imagine this cannot be generalized across all dogs. But the thought of shutting a dog down due to wrong timing is a scary thought. Do some people skip all defense drive training until the dog is older and only work protection in prey drive?

To be up front I am very much an amateur and strictly looking to learn. So I look forward to hearing everyone’s thought.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

whatisami said:


> The last question I posted regarding when to start protection training with pups led to a nice discussion. Further it led me to read more about different drives dogs use during protection training and I was specifically interested in further discussion about defense drive.
> 
> My understanding is having a helper get barked around by a younger dog, around 7 - 8 months is designed to build confidence and hopefully the dogs defense drive.


No. Barking moves the man. The man should be still, dog barks, man moves to activate the prey object (rag) and rewards dog for barking. This is prey drive that is being built. The hardest bites come in prey drive, not defense. 



whatisami said:


> But from what I read this drive does not full develop until 18 months and if too much pressure is put on a young dog they can shut down.


You push a young dog in defense and you can bet on shutting them down. A dog working in primarily in aggression can not sustain it. It's mentally exhausting. And a dog biting in aggression will most times have a crappy grip. 

I guarantee that 95% of the helpers working in "defense" are actually working in prey and just don't know it.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> No. Barking moves the man. The man should be still, dog barks, man moves to activate the prey object (rag) and rewards dog for barking. This is prey drive that is being built. The hardest bites come in prey drive, not defense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes sorry, that is what I meant. The helper is still, the dog barks and move object around. 

What is an example of defense drive? Would when the helper slowly creeps up to the dog acting suspicious, the dog barking and scaring the helper away being defense? Or is this more of prey drive with the helper being the prey? If that is defense could something as simple as that could be too much for a young pup?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

whatisami said:


> yes sorry, that is what I meant. The helper is still, the dog barks and move object around.
> 
> What is an example of defense drive? Would when the helper slowly creeps up to the dog acting suspicious, the dog barking and scaring the helper away being defense? Or is this more of prey drive with the helper being the prey? If that is defense could something as simple as that could be too much for a young pup?


Nope.  You got it. That's exactly working suspicion. Sometimes a table is used. Sometimes the dogs are flanked to make them angry. 

There is no reason to do this to a young pup. Working in aggression is very stressful for dogs and the dogs need to learn to transitiion to prey for the bite.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Nope.  You got it. That's exactly working suspicion. Sometimes a table is used. Sometimes the dogs are flanked to make them angry.
> 
> There is no reason to do this to a young pup. Working in aggression is very stressful for dogs and the dogs need to learn to transitiion to prey for the bite.


I see. At what age do you usually start to work on defense drive? My pup is 8 months, he has not been on a table or flanked. But has had some defense drive work like discussed above but mostly with the helper pretty far away. Obviously the thought of shutting him down is scary so interesting to hear about different view points.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't do defense unless needed. I train the dog in front of me. I would never purposely work my female, whose primarily drive is aggression, in defense. That would be stupid. My male was very prey and would lock up in prey so we needed to work him in aggression to make him angry and more serious. 

All training depends on the dog in front of you. If anyone just works a system without considering the natural drives of the dog then you are setting a dog up for failure. Showing a puppy defense to see what the puppy is like is not a bad thing. But working a dog in defense just to work him in defense makes zero sense.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

When you work a dog in defense like you described, the chance at shutting them down comes from not respecting the dogs response. If a dog is posturing and barking and the threat is continuing or not responding, it can push him to flight. If every time your dog barks he’s getting a response from the helper, it’s highly unlikely to shut him down. Obviously barking isn’t the only response and the helper needs to be able to recognize the dogs response and react/act accordingly. I’ve seen young dogs with lower confidence start off cowering and showing avoidance/flight towards the pressure brought up to a forward response by a helper. This was a very skilled helper and I wouldn’t recommend this most.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I don't do defense unless needed. I train the dog in front of me. I would never purposely work my female, whose primarily drive is aggression, in defense. That would be stupid. My male was very prey and would lock up in prey so we needed to work him in aggression to make him angry and more serious.
> 
> All training depends on the dog in front of you. If anyone just works a system without considering the natural drives of the dog then you are setting a dog up for failure. Showing a puppy defense to see what the puppy is like is not a bad thing. But working a dog in defense just to work him in defense makes zero sense.


I see, that makes sense. Not one size fits all.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> When you work a dog in defense like you described, the chance at shutting them down comes from not respecting the dogs response. If a dog is posturing and barking and the threat is continuing or not responding, it can push him to flight. If every time your dog barks he’s getting a response from the helper, it’s highly unlikely to shut him down. Obviously barking isn’t the only response and the helper needs to be able to recognize the dogs response and react/act accordingly. I’ve seen young dogs with lower confidence start off cowering and showing avoidance/flight towards the pressure brought up to a forward response by a helper. This was a very skilled helper and I wouldn’t recommend this most.


That makes a lot of sense that as long as the dog is gaining confidence and “winning” they are unlikely to get shut down. So really an 8 month old pup that is low in defense drive may benefit from working a bit of defense with low pressure as long as they are not displaying any avoidance / scared.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

whatisami said:


> That makes a lot of sense that as long as the dog is gaining confidence and “winning” they are unlikely to get shut down. So really an 8 month old pup that is low in defense drive may benefit from working a bit of defense with low pressure as long as they are not displaying any avoidance / scared.


They can, depends on the goals. In a sport sense, it’s usually done for barking and guarding. It’s done Tj get the dog to focus their barking at the man. This can help give them deeper, more rhythmic barking. It can also be used to get some dogs to engage and then transitioned to prey work.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> They can, depends on the goals. In a sport sense, it’s usually done for barking and guarding. It’s done Tj get the dog to focus their barking at the man. This can help give them deeper, more rhythmic barking. It can also be used to get some dogs to engage and then transitioned to prey work.


I see. The goal is to compete with my guy. He has super high prey drive, but is very low in defense drive, and displayed avoidance when the helper tried to test his defense. Perhaps that is all because he is so young. The helper mentioned some table work to try and build his defense drive a bit. So, I am trying to educate myself because I want to be involved in his training and understand what is happeneing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just curious why he feels the defense needs to be built instead of allowing a puppy/young dog to mature? Why not use the prey to build the barking (the only real place aggression plays in)? What is happening that he feels defense needs to be built? Is he locking up in prey? Or is this just the helper's go to move? I'm not against table work when done fairly and correctly. Both of my dogs have been up on a table to build confidence and barking.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Just curious why he feels the defense needs to be built instead of allowing a puppy/young dog to mature? Why not use the prey to build the barking (the only real place aggression plays in)? What is happening that he feels defense needs to be built? Is he locking up in prey? Or is this just the helper's go to move? I'm not against table work when done fairly and correctly. Both of my dogs have been up on a table to build confidence and barking.


I am not to sure exactly why he feels the defense needs to be built up right now. Maybe go to move? When working in prey he does not lock up, he is striking and motivated. Wwhat would table work entail, and how does it build defense drive? I know you already mentioned its tough to know without seeing the dog, but what age does table work usually begin, roughly?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

whatisami said:


> I am not to sure exactly why he feels the defense needs to be built up right now. Maybe go to move? When working in prey he does not lock up, he is striking and motivated. Wwhat would table work entail, and how does it build defense drive? I know you already mentioned its tough to know without seeing the dog, but what age does table work usually begin, roughly?


Al animals have a fight or flight instinct. It builds defense because they have only one choice and that is to fight. There are very few trainers I would allow to do this with my dog, and one of those people was taught by Gene England. I've seen dogs fall apart on the table and it can be ugly when that happens. It's ugly even when the dogs don't fall apart so you better really trust your trainer. If he's not locked up, striking well, motivated and barking well - I fail to see the reason to "build defense" in this dog, at this age. There is a time and a place for building defense. Don't get me wrong. We had to with my male to get barking because he was locked up. But your dog is less than 1 year old. He's a baby. Give him another year and see what you have. 

First hand conversation from someone who has sat in the kitchen with this dog...."Bordy Blendy is all prey". And wouldn't all of us in the sport like their own Bordy?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

whatisami said:


> I see. The goal is to compete with my guy. He has super high prey drive, but is very low in defense drive, and displayed avoidance when the helper tried to test his defense. Perhaps that is all because he is so young. The helper mentioned some table work to try and build his defense drive a bit. So, I am trying to educate myself because I want to be involved in his training and understand what is happeneing.


I have seen it done with a dog close in age to yours with similar traits. The results I described before. I didn’t ask why the decision was made to work him on the table. If you want I can show you how it was with my dog. It will give you an idea though it’s not exactly the same as yours.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Al animals have a fight or flight instinct. It builds defense because they have only one choice and that is to fight. There are very few trainers I would allow to do this with my dog, and one of those people was taught by Gene England. I've seen dogs fall apart on the table and it can be ugly when that happens. It's ugly even when the dogs don't fall apart so you better really trust your trainer. If he's not locked up, striking well, motivated and barking well - I fail to see the reason to "build defense" in this dog, at this age. There is a time and a place for building defense. Don't get me wrong. We had to with my male to get barking because he was locked up. But your dog is less than 1 year old. He's a baby. Give him another year and see what you have.
> 
> First hand conversation from someone who has sat in the kitchen with this dog...."Bordy Blendy is all prey". And wouldn't all of us in the sport like their own Bordy?


Okay, that is good to know. I will try to inquire more about why they felt defense should be built. I will definietly be waiting until he is older for any table work. It sounds like the type of training that could potentially be more harmful than helpful if done wrong.


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## whatisami (Jul 5, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> I have seen it done with a dog close in age to yours with similar traits. The results I described before. I didn’t ask why the decision was made to work him on the table. If you want I can show you how it was with my dog. It will give you an idea though it’s not exactly the same as yours.


That would be awesome I would definietly like to see how its done


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I tried to send you a link in a pm. Let me know if it works.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

whatisami said:


> Okay, that is good to know. I will try to inquire more about why they felt defense should be built. I will definietly be waiting until he is older for any table work. It sounds like the type of training that could potentially be more harmful than helpful if done wrong.


It depends on the trainer and what they are trying to accomplish. I've seen dogs fall apart and I've seen trainers take 45 minutes to get the dog to make a squeak so they can reward them. I''ve seen good work with suspicion with a dog as young as yours and dogs that age fall apart. I've seen young dogs put on an elevated platform just for barking because being elevated makes them feel stronger and you can control it (look up Mike Diehl - I know somewhere there are videos of him working young dogs backtied on a platform) that is brilliant work. 

None of your questions have an absolute answer. Personally, I would not put a dog under the age of 1 on the table as a general basis to "build defense". I see no reason for it. I would use a platform and a backtie to use suspicion and build confidence and barking. Those are two different things. My advice is to watch and learn. Asking on here will give conflicting answers because we do not know your trainer and do not know your dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

whatisami said:


> I see. The goal is to compete with my guy. He has super high prey drive, but is very low in defense drive, and displayed avoidance when the helper tried to test his defense. Perhaps that is all because he is so young. The helper mentioned some table work to try and build his defense drive a bit. So, I am trying to educate myself because I want to be involved in his training and understand what is happeneing.


Your dog is still a puppy. A good helper is never going to push a young dog into avoidance. First off, your doing sport with your dog, and sport requires a high level of prey drive. A dog can successfully compete and title in sport being completely trained in "prey." High prey drive is critical for a sport dog. Prey is a happy place for a dog to work. builds confidence and full grips. Prey brings speed and speed is power. Honestly, there is little need for defense in sport work. I've been bitten for real by dogs in "prey" and by dogs in "defense", I can tell you that both hurt. 

For a young sport dog, focus on building confidence and strong, full, hard grips. The quality of the bite is largely genetic, full grips are largely genetic. But good grips can be made better and fuller. Naturally genetic full grips can also be made worse with poor handling and poor decoy work. 

I do a lot of table work with Police K9's. I learned some of the techniques I use from Gene England, who Jax mentioned. You have to be very careful working a dog on the table, especially a young dog. I can easily put a dog into defense just by shooting a look at a dog. It doesn't take much but presence from the helper. Dogs can be worked in prey and defense on the table and a good decoy can switch back and forth. There is a lot to be gained from table work, done correctly. You can build grips, teach the out and put a dog into defense. When I push a dog on the table it is to invoke serious aggression, I will put the dog into a rage. But, that is only done more mature Police K9's. Even the young patrol dogs in training rarely get pushed that far in the beginning of training. 

It is really good that you are doing research and asking questions. You, as the handler need to be as involved in your dog's training as your decoy. Proper handling makes the dog so much better. The handler is an integral part of building a dog in training and must be part of the training. Be wary of anyone that dismisses prey drive, or calls high prey drive dogs "prey monsters." I work with some very high prey drive Malinois and they are phenomal Patrol dogs. I own and work vey nice Malinois, Dutch Shepherd, and GSD's. 

For your young dog, continue working in prey, build your dog up. Learn as much as you can from knowledgeable folks. Watch them work their dogs and see how their dogs look, work and respond. 

Good luck to you.


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