# Chest- Broad, not Narrow



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Let's talk about the GSD's chest. The breed standard according to the USCA states:

"The chest should be moderately broad, the lower chest as long and pronounced as possible. The depth of the chest should amount to approx. 45 % to 48 % of the height at the withers."

Here are some questions I have:

What part of the dog's conformation defines the chest width? Does the placement of the scapula, and or the length of the humerus give an appearence of a wider/narrower chest? Or is this only a factor of how wide the sternum is?
What is the function of having a wider/narrower chest?
Why do we tend to see narrower chests in Highline dogs? Was this a conscous decision or a by product of other conformation decisions?

Full disclosure- what I really want to talk about is turning ability and how the front end of the dog influences turning ability (especially as it relates to croup angle). But I think before we get to that conversation, it might be wise to understand how the narrowness or wideness of the chest affects things.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I can't help much, but I can tell you my male who has a very broad, very barrel chest, has a very deep bark lol. He is also not as agile as thinner chested dogs I've come across. Fast, but straightline fast lol. Like a Ferrari compared to a musclecar. I think those are linked.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not sure if this plays into the discussion, but during a breed survey the chest is measured.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes, interestingly this conversation came up off the forum and was almost spot on with what you're saying, Hunter. I suggested that I really liked the wider chest I'm seeing on a lot of Mals, and that I thought that generally the GSD is suffering from a narrow chest. It was pointed out to me that a wide chest does not necessarily equate to athleticism, and that narrow chested breeds often tend to be more athletic than GSDs.

I think one must be REALLY careful when talking about conformation in saying that any one thing is "the reason" that a dog can turn. I'm sure the whole packaged is involved (thus my comment on croup angle- which I swear I've read on this forum that croup angle is hugely important for collected turning). But again, I'd like to first understand if the width of the chest serves any particular function for the athleticism of the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, I found Nikon's info, I'll give it to you since you've seen him in person multiple times and possibly some (crappy) agility footage, so you can kind of mentally gauge what that means as far as what you're pondering..... 

At 4.5 years of age he was measured 62cm tall, 30cm chest depth, and 81cm chest circumference. 

Things that may relate to movement/agility....
Constitution: moderately robust
Structural characteristics: normal proportions
Bone: moderately strong
Musculature: well developed/powerful
Firmness of front ligaments: very good
Firmness of rear ligaments: very good
Back: firm
Tightness of elbows: very good
Firmness of pasterns: good
Front view: straight
Croup: normal length
Firmness of hocks: good
Gait: front/rear correct, straight
Front reach: very good
Rear drive: effective

"Medium size, medium strong male with good expression and pigmentation, high withers, firm back, nice top- and underline, very good angulations in front and rear and balanced chest proportions. Steps correctly coming and going and shows fluent gaits with free front reach and effective rear drive. Sure temperament; TSB pronounced; does out."

Personally, I'd say Nikon's chest is a tad on the narrower side, but I wouldn't call it *too* narrow. I think he does have quite good length of upper arm, shoulder angulation, and correct open reach and I think having a more correct front places the legs a bit father under the dog, so at least visually, a dog with a more straight front and arms farther forward might make the chest appear a bit wider up top. I would not mind a tad more chest on him (width, not depth), but would rather have his chest than one that is a tad too wide, IMO.

ETA: Actually according to your numbers his chest would be considered on the wider side of the standard. 48% of his height is 29.8cm and his chest was measured 30. However, I'd bet if we measured him 3 times, we'd get 3 slightly different numbers (like 29, 31, 30). The breed survey isn't spectacularly accurate I don't think (that lady that measured our dogs at the Premier seemed to do a much more comprehensive and careful job).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

That wasn't very clear above... What I meant to say is that I commented that I liked the wider chest I'm seeing on Mals because just like in Ferraris, the wider wheelbase creates a more stable platform. THAT'S when I was told that often wide chested dogs are not particularly agile, which is curious to me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there are many links but a lot of factors involved. For example, used to do SchH with some Rottweilers and a few of these dogs literally could not breathe after 15 barks. They were strong dogs, good barking and aggression, nice muscle, but...maybe their heavy bone structure and huge chests just make it more work? I mean, essentially they are performing the same things as a lighter dog like a 45lb Mal or 65lb GSD. It seems like it has to take more effort for a bigger, wider, heavier dog to perform the exact same tasks? As long as the dog has the physical mass necessary to do a task, more bulk probably doesn't help (otherwise why are gymnasts typically under 5'2"? talk about agility). And that's not even considering the skeletal anatomy and how angulation comes into play....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the ideal GSD conformation is determined by the dogs' function.

The GSD was meant to be a dog with tireless endurance .

That means that the that the chest has to be capacious enough to accommodate a good set of lungs.
That is one of the criticisms with the American show bred dogs, deep but very narrow -- not for endurance.

The muscle of the GSD is not supposed to be short and bulky , longer bundles allowing for extension , not load bearing. 

Always the balance between flexibility and strength. 
Great article written and illustrated by Linda Shaw in Das Schaferhund Magazin June 2006


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

What you are actually addressing is a term called "spring of ribs" and Carmen is right. The German shepherd should have a nice spring of rib, not the slab sided narrow stuff you see so often today. It's all about lung capacity - nice spring of rib yields more area for lungs to expand. How they got narrow slab chest from the Standard is beyond me.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/422145-some-pictures-weekend.html

That's a decent set of pics of my males chest. He also has great endurance. Did an AD on him on a whim with no real prep lol


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Doc said:


> What you are actually addressing is a term called "spring of ribs" and Carmen is right. The German shepherd should have a nice spring of rib, not the slab sided narrow stuff you see so often today. It's all about lung capacity - nice spring of rib yields more area for lungs to expand. How they got narrow slab chest from the Standard is beyond me.


Absolutely what Doc said.

If you look at the sighthounds, they have very deep chests to accommodate their organs, and they still have good spring of rib (especially Whippets).

Nothing about the chest lends to turning ability, only the ability to hold organs without them being "squished" and allowing the lungs to expand to maximum capacity to hold oxygen.

Length of body will affect a dog's ability to turn.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the ability to turn comes more from the back and over all proportions, length of limbs and muscle and ligament tone.

too long tends to over all looseness which impairs a quick change of direction .

too short , is too fixed trunk and you have a wider turning circle - to rigid


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Reflecting on a pair of dogs I had: The narrow, deep chested dog had more speed and more endurance that the heavier, broader chested dog. Can't figure that one out with the reasoning here. Am I missing something?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

If the second dog had the breadth of chest but not the depth, that would account for lack of endurance. Even though the chest was broad, without the depth, the organs will still be "squished", and the lungs unable to fully expand when breathing.

You need both depth and breadth for endurance


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

So where does the broad chest come from? Is this from the width of the sternum? Or perhaps from the angle that the ribs are attached?

Carmen- I thought for sure that YOU were the one who said "turning comes from the rear" and you've essentially confirmed that here. Is there any explanation for the fact that broad chested dogs don't tend to be as agile as narrow chested dogs? What function does the front end play in turning?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What do you mean by "agile"? Collection and wrapping?

As far as the front end and agility, I'd say the shoulder angle and reach matter more than the chest measurements.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah- by agile I meant having the ability to turn sharply.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In the air? On the ground...definitely the rear would be way more important I think.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Personally, I think turning in the air is a function of turning on the ground. If the setup is correct, if the dog is flexible and athletic, they should be able to perform a flying lead change. I know Pimg can do it nicely. Watch at 2:57 here:

Course of the week sequencing - YouTube


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Think of it this way. Tightened vs a linebacker. Both are conditioned. Tight ends run specific routes; linebackers are involved in every play. They are built very different but both are athletes.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the ability to turn quickly depends more on broad muscular thighs and a strong hock joint. 

had my dogs out goofing in a raging snow dump today just to watch them in motion making turns in their chasing each other.

they stop on the front, drop weight on the rear hand , bend at the stifle and change direction from the back end. The front has to have good angulation to extend and get itself out of the way to allow the rear to make that forward propulsion. 

A chest should have good capacity for lung and heart . A GSD should not be stuffy or loaded in the front because that affects the length of muscle and cartilage bundles . Short bundles are for weight bearing not for flexibility. The shoulder and scapula placement affect the length of those muscle attachments.

The rear can't be straight stifled because that is for forward motion , not for turning because there is no bend .
The rear can't be too angulated because the longer the bones the longer the muscle , the longer the cartilage , like a worn spring , equally weakness and instability. 

the chest can't be too narrow because the body comes to a rest on the front , and too narrow would not have the same stability in the stop , the turn wouldn't be as sharp . 

the back and top line are not flat as some people like to ask for erroneously. the top line consists of 3 parts , withers , back and croup . The back should be straight . A saggy back is indicative of loose ligaments, a roach back will impede flexibility.

the hock has to be strong to push the body into a new direction

you have to look at the overall dog.

if you want to post some pictures so others can discuss ?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Well, it's hard to know what pictures to post, because I'm still learning about the mechanics of a dog turning. To me, this picture looks like a fine example of a dog turning from the rear. However, I feel like it's maybe two frames passed where we might see what the front does:









I mean, when a four legged animal changes lead, isn't that initiated from the front legs? If so, in what way? Does the front just act as a post to push off of (in the new direction) while the rear takes care of powering through the turn? Or does the lead change actually come about from the rear?

Here's a photo of a nice tight jump wrap:









But I think that the angle might be a bit off to figure out what's happening mechanically speaking...

Here's another picture of a jump wrap:









I find this one pretty interesting. What's going on here? The dog is turning left, and yes we see the rear left foot lower then the rear right. So the dog actually pushed off of the rear left (likely). But check out the torsion in the body- I'm thinking this is influencing the turn- or at the very least preparing the body for landing from the turn.

Here's a photo where it sure seems like the front end is causing the turning, as Pimg's rear end is still on the other end of the weaves:









However, here's a photo where it seems like the rear end is causing the turning:









Then again, here's a photo where it seems like both the front and rear are making the turn:









And finally- here's a mashup from a series of three photos where Pimg catches and turns into the lure while coursing. I have no idea what leg is doing what here:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo -- in a minute I'll be taking the hounds to the back acres for an hour or so romp and I'll be looking and analysing .
Linda Shaw could give you the explanation in the form of levers and pulleys , bone and angles and muscle attachments.

I took your question to mean about turns and the changes in direction that a French ring or knpv dog would execute in an esquive as seen 



 see how much depends on the hock stability. front planted rear changing the direction.
I was thinking of natural quick changes in motion such as in trying to contain a sheep - dodging out of the way and into the sheep, turning those corners at the end of the border that the herding gsd is patrolling.

the moves you have with weave poles wouldn't have any natural place , so the question is a bit different .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hmmm... I just have a hard time seeing what the rear is doing to cause a turn in that video. I see the dog plant the front for, bend its spine and head, bite the guy, and the rear end just follows along. :shrug:

This is also a good example of why agility people have such a hard time finding a good agility dog from ring sport people.


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