# First Bitch



## Xeph

There's this bitch that has been for sale since around Thanksgiving. She is drop...dead...freaking...gorgeous with a pedigree to DIE for. 16 months old, OFA Prelims done and CLEAR (OFA Good Elbows Normal), ears up and firm, great personality, a little extreme in the rear for my taste but could be taken to something less extreme. Elegant, a little light on bone, but she is, again, proportionate, nice neck (maybe a little long).

Long story short, this bitch that started out at *$2500* around Thanksgiving is now being offered for NO money exchanged. All the breeder wants is for her to be SHOWN and either have someone handle another bitch for her for a few shows, and/or ONE breeding back on THIS particular bitch (I would look over the contract forward and backwards).


Linebred on: 
Proven Hill's Banker of Altana 
WeLove DuChien's Matthew 
Kismet's Sweetheart Deal 
Jo-San's Enterprise 
I can post a full pedigree if anybody is interested.

The bitch in question:









Here she is when she was first offered for sale:









Hopefully talks will progress and I'll go see her to evaluate


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## gsdlove212

oh jackie....sounds perfect for you..i know squat about lines and such.....but she looks nice and what a deal. hope it works out for you if it turns out to be what you are wanting!


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## Xeph

Thanks ! I'm hoping so too







I believe she's just in Indiana, so I'd grab another GSD person and a video camera to take a look.

I can evaluate movement with lots of video, but what I REALLY want (because it can be sketchy in a few AmBred lines) is to see temperament and reactions to noise.

I don't normally care for so much linebreeding, but for a "starter bitch" when you want to breed, it can be fantastic.

Select quality? No. Finishable? Yes. And she would DEFINITELY do more than just conformation, which could please the breeder 

She's old enough that I don't have to worry about ears, and young enough that I feel comfortable taking her on and she can learn plenty of new things. 

Her OFA prelims are also done already (Good hips normal elbows) so I know in that regard that at least right NOW she isn't a flop in the joints department.

I'd like shorter pasterns. I think hers are strong, just a little long.

Fingers crossed!


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## WiscTiger

Jackie I see that you have already said you will look over the contract, it might not be a bad idea to have some one else look it over also, a set of eyes that have no vested interest in the deal. A person to play devil's advocate.

Write down you numbers, what it is going to cost you. Also take in to account that by showing the bitch you are increasing the value of the bitch. 

Not a bad looking bitch, I agree she is a little more extreme than I like, but she has a very nice top line, her pasterns have firmed up, she could use more angle on the front shoulders. 

Do you have a head shot?

Val


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## Xeph

> Quote:Jackie I see that you have already said you will look over the contract, it might not be a bad idea to have some one else look it over also, a set of eyes that have no vested interest in the deal. A person to play devil's advocate.


I'm already arranging to take 2-3 extra sets of eyes with me that can be more objective











> Quoteo you have a head shot?


Not current...the one I have is from when she was first available and it's an icky puppy head shot. I do think she may be a bit narrow, but there are some nice boys with much better heads that could "fix" that. It's more in her cheeks than her actual skull (I call it "Flat 
cheeked")

I try very VERY hard to keep my eyes open and not become jaded or kennel blind.


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## WiscTiger

In the older shot the first one, it looks like she has some width to her muzzle, but maybe a bit of a roman bump in there. Her stop could be better, a bit of a ski slope. LOL but now I am being really picky.


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## Xeph

She appears a bit dishfaced in the photo, but it also seems a little blurred. 

I'm picking her faults, but I'm being careful because, as you know, pictures can cause illusions. I DO see the small roman nose however.


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## Krusin K9

Not really up on the show lines, but she looks nice. I just wanted to comment on the "stacking blocks". What a great concept! Is that something used commonly amongst "show" people?


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## GranvilleGSD

She looks nice, and she will do some filling out as she gets older too. Those block stacking photos crack me up too!


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## Xeph

They're called "Happy Legs" and they're $200 a set! Better to make your own or use soup cans/bricks! This is a very common method though


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## Xeph

Headshot:


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## WiscTiger

Well she has a dark eye, that is good. But holy wonkers she could use smaller ears. Not just in height but the over all ear. She would be much prettier if she had smaller ears, the ears over power the rest of her face. Decent color on the muzzle would like to see a little darker on the forhead. Being picky again.

Val


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## Xeph

I agree about the ear size...however, because of the fantastic SET I am uber forgiving. Usually bitches like this are bat eared...I also think they'll look more proportionate when she's mature.

If I end up with her I'd take her to something with a shorter ear.


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## selzer

I look forward to seeing her when she has filled out. 

Her back leg seems a little long to me, without the usual accompanying stretched slope, is she level when she trots? 

I like her face and I am partial to large ears. 

Isn't it great that when the camera comes out, so does that tongue?


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## Xeph

She has an over-elongated stifle (AKA she's got too much rear). No idea if she's level...I've not gotten to see her in person yet.

I would prefer shorter ears at least...too large for me currently, but I "accept" the largeness because of the nice set.

She's not stretched because she has a proper loin and back, while many others tend to be too long through the back, so we'll see how that affects her gait


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## Doc

I like her. She may fill into those ears? Nice pigment and proportional. Is her croup a little steep or is it the picture? Front pasterns?


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## Andaka

Nice bitch. Every one else has already pointed out both her good and bad attributes (as spotted in the pictures), so all that reamains is for you to go see her.

Let us know how it comes out.


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## Xeph

Doc,
Her croup is a little steep. Firm pasterns, but they're a little long (Justin has the same issue).

I wish her owner would e-mail me back >.<


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## Doc

don't you think she may grow out of some of the physical points we have pointed out? How old is she? She's a real looker for sure!


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## Xeph

I think a lot of what I'm seeing is what it is. The pasterns won't get shorter, nor will the hocks...the croup may change angle slightly as she matures, but it'll still be a little short. 

I DO think that she'll look better in the rear as she matures and grows back into it, same for those ears.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Doc She may fill into those ears?


At this age, I would guess no.(Or at least not enough to make them look "regular" sized.) A young puppy with HUGE ears is one thing, an older puppy/young adult is something else.


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## arycrest

Jackie, I think your girl's pretty, especially for a starter/foundation bitch. She might not be perfect, but there are very few, if any, dogs who are. FWIW, this picture of Bruiser was taken when he was 14 months old ... he was 4 years old on Sunday. I'm not saying your girl won't grow into her ears, but Bruiser's still a pin-head and he still has the Dumboian ears (despite the fact he only has an ILP registration number, on paper he's well bred). 








Good luck - I hope she turns out to be the perfect dog for you to start your breeding program!!!


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## Doc

Jackie - I think she has more good qualities then not. You can always compensate "flaws" by selecting the right male. How is her dam line as far as nurturing? Is her dam a good mom? You would hate to get a bitch that absolutely hates pups and will not care or feed the pups. Or worse yet, abandon/kill the litter. It's a horrible thought but you can't leave any question unanswered.


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## Xeph

Thanks Gayle and Doc







I just hope I get her at all!

Please don't think I'm being harsh by picking out her faults...I'm trying to remain objective and not be blinded by how much I want her









I see plenty of great things about her (Whoo! What a ped to start with!), but objectivity is my foremost concern when looking at dogs, including ones that are or will be (hopefully) mine.


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## Doc

Jackie, have you posted her pedigree? If not, please do.


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## GranvilleGSD

Yes, please do, also, the first 3 dogs that you listed were in her pedigree, the links do not work.


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## Xeph

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/597997.html


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## Doc

Well Jackie, she does indeed have the genetics! How is her temperament?


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## Xeph

No idea...haven't met her. I'm trying to set it up and made a phone call to the breeder today in the hopes I'll hear something back


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## selzer

Good luck, I sure hope you get her.


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## Xeph

Why is it that the most important answers take the longest to receive?


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## Brightelf

........ I shall tell you.........

............ later.


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## Xeph

*Gasp* Well that's just mean! LOL!

Glad you've got a good sense of humor about you though Patti ^_^


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## Brightelf

Jackie


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## WiscTiger

Well I am really busy right now.... But I will get back to you soon.


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## Xeph

*Snickers*

Wait....that was a joke, right?


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf........ I shall tell you.........
> 
> ............ later.


You are amazing, Patti


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## DancingCavy

Ahh Patti. You are the best.

I really hope you hear from the breeder soon, Jackie. Sounds like you're really excited about this bitch.


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## RubyTuesday

Jackie, I've got all fingers (& toes) crossed for you & this girl. You deserve it!


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## Xeph

I also did the happy dance when I realized that Rolf is going to be 11 this year! Yayyyy longevity!


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## cliffson1

Jackie, I would take a hard look at the breeding on this dog in terms of in/linebreeding. she is 2-3 on a Kismet dog....she is therefore 3-4 and in one case 3-3,4 on the parents of this dog. When I looked up the linebreeding on these three dogs they all seem to go back to Hawkeye, Reno, Frack, Morgan, etc. If I am not mistaken these are all Lance progeny.....My concerns would be twofold...you have expressed a desire to maintain working qualities in the breed...would this not be the type of breeding that got the American lines to the condition they are in today?, second...how would you be able to breed her to most American lines without further digging into the Lance saturation? How do you see your temperament improving? Just curious....Cliff


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## Xeph

I've looked VERY carefully at the lines of this bitch. One of the reasons I like her pedigree so much in terms of linebreeding is for early set type.

I would NOT breed her to something as heavily linebred as she is, especially on these same dogs because it is asking for trouble. I want a more open pedigree.

For a starter bitch a pedigree like this is awesome because depending on who you bring her to you basically know what you're going to get. It's going to be pretty hard to find a good bitch with an open pedigree as it is with nice breed type (IMO).

Eventually I'd like to cross out to some German dogs to "harden" things up again, but there are some nice dogs out there without Lance behind them or with him in the pedigree very little...it just takes a LOT of digging.

Temperament is first on my list, followed by health and conformation/working ability.


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## Xeph

*sighs* No updates. I think I'm just going to let it go, because there couldn't be that many people interested, and it's very frustrating to get no information about what's going on at all.


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## Liesje

Sorry it didn't work out Jackie


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## Xeph

*shrugs*

I'm frustrated in general...have offers on a couple other bitches...just waiting


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