# An update on the litter I'm getting a pup from!



## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

The dogs will be bred sometime this next six weeks. It will be the breeders first GSL WGW cross litter. I would post a pedigree, but they're on paper.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Congrats. But I'm curious what makes you choose this litter? What are the breeders goals? WL/SL crosses are often marketed as "the best of both worlds" but rarely work out that way, especially if the breeder is not experienced with *both* types and crossing them for a specific purpose.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> Congrats. But I'm curious what makes you choose this litter? What are the breeders goals? WL/SL crosses are often marketed as "the best of both worlds" but rarely work out that way, especially if the breeder is not experienced with *both* types and crossing them for a specific purpose.


She has bred working lines for all the time she's been breeding and I trust her alot. Her goals are to produce active companion dogs, she knows many SL dogs (not sure how many), but shes never owned one. The only reason she was crossing a showline in was because she wanted less high strung puppies and the particular female she's breeding currently is pretty high strung if she doesn't get run more than 3 miles a day. if you have any more questions feel free to ask, but I hope that answered them.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

out of all the breeders in the world you choose one who is crossling a working and show line for the first time ever. must be cheap! otherwise i have no idea why you wouldnt choose a better breeder. and if you mean high stung as in no off switch then thats a fault.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I have never understood breeding a not-so-good dog to a good-dog in the hopes of getting good puppies....I would want a great dog bred to a great dog for great puppies...but that's just me...any breeder who says their dog is "high strung" and they are breeding to hopefully "fix" that is someone I would have a LOT of questions for....one in particular "why the heck are you breeding a dog with a temperament fault?" And probably* ultimately not give my money to.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This "The only reason she was crossing a showline in was because she wanted less high strung puppies and the particular female she's breeding currently is pretty high strung " is a really bad idea . Sounds amateur. What they likely will get is even more high strung animals , possibly with nerve issues.

keep looking


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Congrats

Its hard to relay information on the internet at times. Especially when there are so many details that aren't there, and the information comes from a second party.

If you have done your research and are happy with the breeder and the litter in question, go for it. 

And post pics...lots of pics.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

GSDolch said:


> Congrats
> 
> Its hard to relay information on the internet at times. Especially when there are so many details that aren't there, and the information comes from a second party.
> 
> ...


This is true....when I finally pick a breeder and get my pup, when I post about him if anyone asks where he came from I'm going to just say "no comment." If people really are dying to know or I see someone asking about the breeder on the forum I will PM. Don't need anyone commenting on anything I didn't ask to be commented on. But that won't stop me from pondering why a breeder would breed a not-so-stellar dog...I just do not understand that...I don't like the term "high strung" for anything though, makes me anxious lol.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

DaniFani said:


> This is true....when I finally pick a breeder and get my pup, when I post about him if anyone asks where he came from I'm going to just say "no comment." If people really are dying to know or I see someone asking about the breeder on the forum I will PM. Don't need anyone commenting on anything I didn't ask to be commented on. But that won't stop me from pondering why a breeder would breed a not-so-stellar dog...I just do not understand that...I don't like the term "high strung" for anything though, makes me anxious lol.



I can see that train of thought.

I guess, at least for me, there is a lot left to individual interpretation since there isn't a lot of information to go on. Words sometimes can get thrown around without their true meaning really being used. Like "high strung", for some its not a good thing, for others it is. When I think of high strung I think of a high drive working dog. Which some people do look for in a dog, especially if they are going to work them in something. I don't know if I would go so far as to say the other dog is not so stellar either, at least not without knowing more about the dog in question other than its a SL. It could be a very good dog for what it was breed for (showing). 

If its a good breeding or not...eehhhh, I'm not usually a fan of SL dogs, personal preference and all, but the match could work maybe. Depending on the dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

high strung dogs tend to have the attention span of a gnat -- that is not good for working - 
that "high strung" has to have an escape valve and that can be with obsessive behaviour, tail chasing , flank sucking, pacing , dog stuck in a behavioural rut, pacing, running circles --

this litter is "future" -- don't leave a deposit -- see the pups first at an age where you can get a sense of what they are like , say 7 weeks - then make a decision . The female will be bred about 6 weeks from now, 8 weeks gestation , 8 weeks in whelp to wean . That's a long time . In the meantime the anticipation and emotions will have you invested in the litter more. If you are getting a dog, and I believe this may be your first? , then go out and have a look at a lot of litters and meet with a lot of breeders . Take your time. You do have time on your side.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The advice to go visit other breeders if really good advice-you don't loose anything by doing that-if you are able-as for posting who I get my next dog from-if I am happy with it it won't really matter what someone else says-and it doesn't matter with my current dogs-I am the one that lives with them


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

carmspack said:


> *this litter is "future" -- don't leave a deposit* -- see the pups first at an age where you can get a sense of what they are like , say 7 weeks - then make a decision . The female will be bred about 6 weeks from now, 8 weeks gestation , 8 weeks in whelp to wean . That's a long time . In the meantime the anticipation and emotions will have you invested in the litter more. If you are getting a dog, and I believe this may be your first? , *then go out and have a look at a lot of litters and meet with a lot of breeders . Take your time. You do have time on your side.*


:thumbup:


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I'm curious as to why the thread got moved?

While the direction did take the road of talking about the breeder, the OP isn't asking for information on choosing a breeder? *confused*


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

By high strung, I mean high energy.Not nerve issues, Plus I trust her a lot. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have the pedigree of the breeding match?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" the OP isn't asking for information on choosing a breeder?"

call it support .

you don't have someone walk into a potentially bad situation , at least have them put on the brakes and think about it. I gather the OP is a young person , without this kind of experience .

there is so much time between now and actually having a pup to look at . 

The formula of a high strung , or even high energy(?) dog mixing with a show line to go for a golden middle does not work . The breeder has never done it so they have no experience. They must feel their female is a bit of a problem , otherwise why try to "fix" things.

If you want to breed animals ideal for a pet market then start off with animals ideally suited for the pet market. Start with what you want to end up with .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

breeders and what they think they can produce sounds great when you don't know what you don't know.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

carmspack said:


> " the OP isn't asking for information on choosing a breeder?"
> 
> call it support .
> 
> ...



You make a lot of assumptions based on very little information. But, that's your priorities and all.

For all we know this breeder has another experienced breeder in the mix and the OP is just relaying information that they misunderstood because they don't know any better. Perish the thought.


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## von Bolen (Mar 30, 2012)

Although i get the reservations, I get the feeling that 'out-crosses' between working and show/companion lines get a bad rap and alot of umbrella treatment. To me and many other shepherd people that I get mentoring from(one being, IMO, the TOP Gshep breeder overall in W. Washington) feel that what it REALLY BOILS DOWN TO... is the temperaments. Working and show lines aside, the temperaments and mannerisms of the parents are whats really going to show through. One of my females, Fricks, is an outcross of, simply put, 3/4 working and 1/4 show and companion lines. She's 3 years old, and to be utterly honest, has been a complete DREAM to raise. Her temperament screams above all other attributes and to me is just totally perfect. But, thats just me and my dog. Not all out-crosses are gonna come out like that, but I see alot of people speaking highly against this kind of breeding and I don't think they are looking at the evidence/data. 

Thats my .02.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

von Bolen said:


> Although i get the reservations, I get the feeling that 'out-crosses' between working and show/companion lines get a bad rap and alot of umbrella treatment. To me and many other shepherd people that I get mentoring from(one being, IMO, the TOP Gshep breeder overall in W. Washington) feel that what it REALLY BOILS DOWN TO... is the temperaments. Working and show lines aside, the temperaments and mannerisms of the parents are whats really going to show through. One of my females, Fricks, is an outcross of, simply put, 3/4 working and 1/4 show and companion lines. She's 3 years old, and to be utterly honest, has been a complete DREAM to raise. Her temperament screams above all other attributes and to me is just totally perfect. But, thats just me and my dog. Not all out-crosses are gonna come out like that, but I see alot of people speaking highly against this kind of breeding and I don't think they are looking at the evidence/data.
> 
> Thats my .02.


Agree with this... My dog is WGSL/WGWL half and half cross. He has a great temperament, healthy as a horse and excels in the sport that we do(herding).

BUT I do agree that if you're going to get a cross(and I did not set out to, it just ended up that way) the breeder really needs to know what they're doing. I got lucky in that my breeder has over 30 years experience with the breed. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't jump into this litter especially given her reasons for doing the cross.


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## von Bolen (Mar 30, 2012)

I also agree, but since this is a first litter from an otherwise experienced breeder... you gotta start somewhere, right? I think its safe to give the benefit of the doubt if the breeder has done the research and is experienced otherwise.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

My Strauss is an outcross. Best dog I've had to date.

My first litter will be an outcross, but I asked for the input of people I trust (just a couple), and looked through TONS Of different stud dogs before I finally picked one.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Tess is a cross, her breeder has been raising shepherds for over 25 years. Both of her parents were stable, confident dogs, as was her grandsire. She is 2 years old, without health issues and just a wonderful all around dog. I think it as always will come down to the dogs being bred, and their lines.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

GSDolch said:


> I'm curious as to why the thread got moved?
> 
> While the direction did take the road of talking about the breeder, the OP isn't asking for information on choosing a breeder? *confused*


I am pretty sure that I moved it. 

This thread could be a story, it could be choosing the right puppy, it could be choosing a breeder, it could be bloodlines and pedigrees, but it is not General Information. When people just randomly stick threads there, and they get moved, they get moved to where I, or whoever it is that is moving them, decide, often with time constraints, i.e., I am not able or going to ponder the intent of the poster. Some are clearly health, grooming, behavior issues, others have interpretations. 

Regardless, good questions are good questions, and anectodtal stories of successful crosses are not evidence of anything in this case, particularly the potential for success of a specific breeding. Pedigrees would tell much more.

HeidiGS - paper pedigrees can be typed, can be scanned, etc. if you are allowed to.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't think this being an outcross is what people are warning the OP about. It's how the OP is explaining this breeder and what their goals are with this litter.

- The breeder wants to take energy and/or drive out of her dogs by bringing in show line blood. 
- The breeder has never even owned show lines, so how much can she possibly know about these lines she's introducing to her working lines.
- The goal of this litter is to produce pets

It seems this litter can be all over the place. There's probably a right way to do an outcross - this just doesn't sound like it.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I don't think this being an outcross is what people are warning the OP about. It's how the OP is explaining this breeder and what their goals are with this litter.
> 
> - The breeder wants to take energy and/or drive out of her dogs by bringing in show line blood.
> - The breeder has never even owned show lines, so how much can she possibly know about these lines she's introducing to her working lines.
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I remember reading from a well respected breeder on here that a breeding should consist of 90% comparable traits and 10% compensatory traits. This litter doesn't sound even close to those percentages.

I also spoke to another breeder that was doing an outcross when I was looking at litters a little while ago. They knew their lines. They owned and worked both dogs being bred. They knew everything about the two dogs being bred and their pedigrees. The litter wasn't to compensate anything - just a breeding of two good dogs. They stressed how similar the two dogs were (and how crucial that is when doing an outcross) in terms of temperament and drives and that's why they were being bred together. I'm sure that litter turned out great.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

von Bolen said:


> I also agree, but since this is a first litter from an otherwise experienced breeder... you gotta start somewhere, right? I think its safe to give the benefit of the doubt if the breeder has done the research and is experienced otherwise.


She has lots of experience and knows both dogs very well.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Good luck with your puppy Heidi!!! 

You have a long fun frustrating road ahead, raising a puppy!!! Let the fun begin. 




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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lucy Dog you hit the nail on the head ! All those reasons.

Heidi , the breeder may know the individual dog(S) but she may not know the lines .

Good luck .


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice, I'm worried, but don't get me wrong. I'm looking forward to it!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> The formula of a high strung , or even high energy(?) dog mixing with a show line to go for a golden middle does not work . The breeder has never done it so they have no experience. They must feel their female is a bit of a problem , otherwise why try to "fix" things.
> 
> If you want to breed animals ideal for a pet market then start off with animals ideally suited for the pet market. Start with what you want to end up with .


^This, x1000. 

If the breeder is working with working lines, high energy kind of comes with the territory, and if the breeder doesn't want a high-energy litter, why is she breeding this particular bitch? It's sort of confusing, wish the breeder were here so she could explain her goals.



Lucy Dog said:


> - The breeder wants to take energy and/or drive out of her dogs by bringing in show line blood.
> - The breeder has never even owned show lines, so how much can she possibly know about these lines she's introducing to her working lines.
> - The goal of this litter is to produce pets
> 
> It seems this litter can be all over the place. There's probably a right way to do an outcross - this just doesn't sound like it.


I do believe there is a right way to cross the lines. But breeding a working line to a showline in an attempt to water down "high energy" (still not exactly sure what she means by that) does not sound like a good plan. If this particular female is over-the-top hyperactive and can't settle in the house unless she is run several miles day, it's not the kind of dog you should be breeding for a "pet" litter. Breeding her to a laid-back show dog *seems* like a good plan on the surface, but it's much more complicated than that. Mixing genes is not like mixing paint.



Lucy Dog said:


> I remember reading from a well respected breeder on here that a breeding should consist of 90% comparable traits and 10% compensatory traits. This litter doesn't sound even close to those percentages.


We could give the breeder the benefit of the doubt and assume that's what she is doing, but without a pedigree, we cannot really know. All I can say is, I wouldn't buy a show/working cross puppy unless the breeder is very experienced with both lines and has crossed them before with good success. I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig that tests a breeder's first attempt at this, especially with a female that can't settle down. 

I agree with the others--keep looking.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Okay...... You guys probably think I'm on the hunt for criticism, but apparently the showline dog the breeder chose as a stud wasn't a good fit for the female who is NOT over the top. she instead decided to breed her own dogs. The litter will be primarily Czech DDR lines. That's all I know, but if you have a specific question feel free to PM me.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

lol you are incredibly naive. i bet she could tell you her dog can speak italian and you'd believe her.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

HeidiGS, my question to you is this. 

You picked this particular breeding because you thought it would produce a puppy that fit what you wanted. Now that the breeding is going to be different, bringing in VERY different traits from the male, how can it still be a litter that fits what you want? 

I know you like this breeder. But it has to be more about the breeding than the breeder sometimes. I have a hard time believing that the change in breeding is not going to affect the outcome. 

I talk to a lot if people in my line if work, vet tech, about choosing dogs that fit for their life. It always boggles my mind when someone talks to me about trying to decide between two breeds,ie German Shepherd vs Bassett Hound. Huh??? They could not be more different. What is it that YOU really want and need in a dog??? Because those dogs bring very different things to the table. 

That's what this change seems like to me. I encourage you to really try to understand and articulate what you are looking for in a dog and find a planned breeding that will fit that. Don't get caught up with sticking with one breeder. Especially since she thought a Showline male would best compliment a female then switched it to a VERY different type of dog. 

Wish you the best, but encourage you to slow down and make a calm educated decision. 


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I hope this answers your question, the first litter i.e showline litter was the litter that had the type of dogs that my mother was preferring, but she left it up to me on what puppy. The current breeding, for example is what I am wanting in a dog. If I wasn't clear there then I don't know what to say.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Heidi, I think what some are asking is, what ARE you looking for in a dog???


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Post pedigrees!!!

I want to know what a Czech DDR line looks like...


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

heidi, i don't know half of what some people on this forum know. i will tell you my last gsd was the wrong dog for us. luckily my girls ran in hs and drained a lot of energy. training her was quit different than i was used to. she was hungarian and czeck. very high energy, very intense at everything she did. she was a working dog 100% of the time. it worked out, but it was a family effort. my point is you can get a gsd that will fit from the start. learn the different flavors available and get the one that suits you. having had gsd all my life, i thought i knew what i was getting and was wrong. it all worked out and i wouldn't have changed a thing, but not all will have the help i had. please take your time. the wrong gsd can be a nightmare.


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