# My GSD and strangers



## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Dexter is a 2 yrs 4 months old, intact male (will likely be neutered this year, but that’s not the subject of this post!). His story goes like this:

I adopted him at 4 ½ months after his breeder found the family who purchased him abused and neglected him. He was fearful of unknown people and places, but with lots of socialization after 6 months he did well in all scenarios he was exposed to. He would allow strangers after a proper meet to pet him, though he was not like some who roll over and let people rub their belly, but he accepted their affection. When he was 1, he encountered a local untrained, dominant neighbor’s dog…..the long and short of it is, it bit Dex twice and the event was very traumatizing to him. Dexter developed a fear aggression towards unknown dogs as a result. I worked him hard in this area and it’s still a work in progress. What I seem to have noticed since that, is although he is never aggressive to strangers, he does not like someone he doesn’t know touching him. If he meets a stranger I will make him drop or sit and then he is given the command to say hi. All that is fine, but if the stranger wants to touch, he will low growl and does not want them in his personal space. He would rather just walk up, sniff, walk away and ignore. He has met a number of my friends and he is fine, he just seems to not want people he doesn’t know well in his close personal space or giving him affection. Once he gets to know people, he allows affection. 

The decision for me is this: I believe my position lies in allowing the dogs individual personality ie. He is not an overly submissive animal who will roll over at the feet of strangers, he is aloof, doesn’t seem afraid or fearful, but just only wants people he knows to give him affection. The other side of the fence I guess is to force the behavior through positive reinforcement. 

Should I accept his personality (if that’s what it is) / behavior or do I force the issue in a safe, rewarding way? Still contemplating…….he gets so much attention from people when we are out training and people will ask to meet him……

Looking for constructive criticism from people who have dealt with a similar situation.

Thanks


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, first I would say that you have a German Shepherd and part of their personality is to be aloof to strangers so I don't really think you have a oddball. 

The growling is an issue though, even though his issues of trust are understandable. He should accept attention. Is he treat motivated? If so, I might keep treats with me and let the strangers give them to him.

Remember that down is a submissive position so I don't think I would Down him. And pay attention to the body language of the strangers. Are they leaning over him? That is a show of dominance. Are they petting his head? Same thing. Are they a little to fawning over him? Maybe that annoys him.

The only time I will put Jax in a Down for a stranger is if she's nose to nose with a toddler and that only because I'm afraid she'll accidentally knock them down.

It sounds like you've come a long way with Dexter! Good job on working so hard for him!


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Thx Jax, I appreciate your input.....oh yes, the aloof characteristic is one of the many reasons I have always loved the GSD personality, just wanted to indicate it seems to be more aloof than fearful.....
_
"the __growling is an issue though, even though his issues of trust are understandable. He should accept attention. Is he treat motivated? If so, I might keep treats with me and let the strangers give them to him._"

I used that technique with him when I first adopted him and it worked well. I guess why I'm not sure about using it again, is the behavior seems different to me this time. He is not reactive (barking) like he was before, he just doesn't want to be bothered with complete strangers touching him (which I guess is reactive in a different way).....that's why I'm confused this time.

_"Remember that down is a submissive position so I don't think I would Down him. And pay attention to the body language of the strangers. Are they leaning over him? That is a show of dominance. Are they petting his head? Same thing. Are they a little to fawning over him? Maybe that annoys him._"

Sorry, should have clarified, he is never in a drop when someone touches, just sometimes while I'm standing talking to them. For sure anywhere near his face, but even petting the back he is not fond of the breach of personal space! 

_"It sounds like you've come a long way with Dexter! Good job on working so hard for him! _"

:blush:...you're too kind, thanks for the atta-girl!!lol We all need them now and again....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Petting on the back is a sign of dominance also. They have to lean over him to pet his back. They should pet him on his chest if possible.

If I knew Jax didn't like strangers petting her then I might keep the treats. Let the strangers give her supplied treats but not let them pet her unless she was showing acceptance of them. Since it worked for Dexter before, maybe do that again. Really high value treats like cheese or chicken.

He just doesn't like it. But it obviously makes him uncomfortable,and you said it started after a traumatic experience. It could just be his age also. They do go through a butthead stage. But given his background, I would worry that could progress to fear, or is fear already. So I would want to stop the "discomfort" he's feeling somehow.

How does he act in crowds? Any sensitivity to being brushed up, or crowded, against while going through a tight group of people?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My female is alot like this, she is perfectly fine to sit/stand whatever and check YOU out, but very much prefers NOT to be fawned over / pet by strangers. She tends to pick and choose her people, (this is funny but she is all over anyone who has booze on their breath, not that I hang out with drunks) 

She has given a low grumble if , say, a stranger tries to push themselves on her, I always tell people , you can "look, but don't touch" unless she makes overtures . 
I can read her pretty well, and know when she's just NOT interested in someone. 

I do NOT correct the grumble/growl, because for me, she's telling me this is not someone she's comfortable with. I usually just say something like "oh knock it off", make no big deal of it, and tell the person not to take it personally) She is content to take in any and all scenes, just doesn't want people petting her. I have learned to respect this, never push anyone on her, she's not real treat motivated (more toy) but I do carry treats with me, and will have others treat her, or drop them on the ground. 

Now this a dog who can go anywhere off leash (tho we don't in most circumstances) and would ignore 50 people standing around, and I trust her completely. It's just her 'makeup".. She's never bitten anyone, or tried to attack anything/.anyone, she is just the total description of "aloof" when it comes to the majority of strangers we encounter.

I'm fine with it, again, it's who she is, some people don't understand these aren't golden retrievers, but I just tell them not to take it personally)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is what I would do:

I would get him into classes. Make your goal a CGC. But on the way to that, I would suggest Rally, and possibly agility. I think the dog has to be measured for agility, so start with rally/obedience classes. 

Take him to classes at least once per week for at least a year. This will improve the bond between you and him, and at the same time he will be exposed to other people and dogs (hopefully at a safe distance). Take him to shows if you want (no touching in Rally), but this puts him into a whole other arena. Be sure to let people know that they cannot run up to him and pet him, but these are almost all dog people and rarely do I see them do that. 

Anyhow, once you have trained him to the point where he can work on lead and off lead and will allow the stand for exam with your own trainer, start giving him that same command and have other people go over him. This is just a touch to the head, back, and butt, it is not a stroke, but three touches. Start with people he knows, the instructor, then a member of the class. feed him treats and stand right with him. 

As he gets comfortable with this, either use stranger people, or increase your distance, and treat only some of the time. 

I would not punish the growl. The growl is a warning. What you do not want is for him to bypass the warning and go to a snap or a bite because he knows he better not growl. But until the growling disappears completely, stay at the head offering treats for touching without growls. 

But I think you are not to this point yet. I would spend several months, six or eight, just teaching him in classes what you want for him, stays, sits, downs, finishes, heel, come, pivots, fetch, and start teaching him agility equipment -- for some reason this really helps dogs that need to build confidence. 

Lots of praise, treats. At some point, you stop giving the treats and have others give him treats. Mine at this point know their best bet at a tasty morsel is from anyone else. I dubbed Heidi, The Mugger. (Kind of like smoking OPs, not sure my classmates like this.) But this may be later too. 

Our trainer, every day starts with a meet and greet. She comes up and shakes our hand and says hello. Dog sits and behaves himself. After a few classes, she does this to everyone, and then asks if she can pet the dog to each of us. After this is going ok, she has her husband or another classmate come up to us. If the dog shows discomfort we stop the exercise and go back to a previous point using praise and treats. 

Lastly, there is no reason on Gods green earth that every Tom, ****, and Harry has to be allowed to pet your dog. You can ALWAYS say no. The only exception is the vet, and if you start right away going in there twice a week and having vet techs give him treats, that shouldn't be an issue. Have them start by just dropping them without looking at him. Then have them drop them with looking at them. Then offer the treat in their open hand. Eventually make him work for it, sit or down before he gets the treat. Pretty soon your dog is thinking, YaY! We are going to the VET, Kool!!! Treats! 

Just plan on it taking a year or so and enjoy the ride.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

selzer said:


> Lastly, there is no reason on Gods green earth that every Tom, ****, and Harry has to be allowed to pet your dog.


 That's what I keep thinking. What is the reason behind letting every stranger pet your dog? I can say no to the cutest kid if I or my dog are not in the mood, and I do not feel guilty.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Anna's the same way. If she knows you, she wants to be all up in your space, but if not, she'll just sit and watch you. 

In OB class, during the sit for exam, this is a struggle for most GSDs. They'll allow it, but not too happily, as say a lab would. My instructor says that's a GSD, and if you wanted a lab response, you would have purchased a lab!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

The stand for exam is a real struggle for my 2=yo male GSD (Baron) but for the opposite reason. he wants to be petted by almost all people he meets. very gregarious and friendly BUT not with everyone. Every now and then he will meet someone he just doesn't like - not aggression just doesn't seem to trust them enough to allow them to pet him. usually he doesn't even mind being petted on top of of his head which is usually a No-No for many dogs.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your great input....

Jax- _How does he act in crowds? Any sensitivity to being brushed up, or crowded, against while going through a tight group of people?
_We do lots of walking downtown, but I honestly don't recall lots of brush ups...I live in a small town, not a whole lot of crowds lol....but I do take him in between people and he does really well.

Jakoka- _My female is alot like this, she is perfectly fine to sit/stand whatever and check YOU out, but very much prefers NOT to be fawned over / pet by strangers. She tends to pick and choose her people_......._I do NOT correct the grumble/growl, because for me, she's telling me this is not someone she's comfortable with. I usually just say something like "oh knock it off"_............_She is content to take in any and all scenes, just doesn't want people petting her. I have learned to respect this, never push anyone on her...._
Thx for sharing this...it is interesting to hear your experiences, this sounds just like Dex.....and I too am leaning towards the let him be who he is....when she does low growl I assume the person retracts their hand.....have you ever had her react to that or is she just happy the person is out of her space???? I don't want to "correct" the growl either with a leash correction I wouldn't want any kind of re-directed aggression and I do want him to let me know he is uncomfortable.....I'll likely use the "settle" command for situation, seems the only one we use that would apply....

Selzer- _Lastly, there is no reason on Gods green earth that every Tom, ****, and Harry has to be allowed to pet your dog. You can ALWAYS say no.
_Absolutely!!!....and by no means do I allow that EVER....I am very selective and try to pick balanced sensible strangers!!!lol....I am more thinking of encounters with people who are strangers to Dex but known to me ie. work colleague etc.....who may want to meet him....I really don't care so much about complete strangers, so am more thinking of people known to me.

Aubie- _Anna's the same way. If she knows you, she wants to be all up in your space, but if not, she'll just sit and watch you......_
thx Aubie, it is reassuring to hear that others experience this also...._My instructor says that's a GSD, and if you wanted a lab response, you would have purchased a lab!_....














BINGO, that's what I thought!!lol....


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Gib, masi usually will give that warning grumble, prior to anyone touching her, I normally tell people to just ignore her, and so far the majority have) 

any word, settle included, can accomplish what you want, )


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the best way to get him to the point where he accepts the people you want him to accept is to allow the people willing to greet him and help you with him to do so, as many as possible so long as they are not afraid or do not give you bad vibes. 

I think that you can do this with just your select group but it will take longer. 

The best thing to do when they come in, or before they come in is to give them a treat, and tell them to completely ignore the dog. If the dog comes up to them they should quietly offer the treat with an open hand. If they hold the treat between the thumb and forefinger, a nervous dog that tries the ole snatch and go, will snatch the finger as well, and while damage is unlikely it will probably hurt and make your friend afraid of the dog. 

Offering with an open hand forces the dog to zero in on the treat and take just that. 

Explain too, not to pet the top of the head, but to scratch up under the muzzle or on the chest. Eventually the dog should be ok with a head pet especially if the purson starts at under the muzzle and works slowly up the face to the top of the head. 

The more postive experiences your dog has with people of a variety of shapes and sizes and attire, the easier it will be for thim to meet the people you want him to meet. 

You can always decline and should do so if the dog has had a tough day already or if you think that the people may not provide a positive bit of socialization.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

thx Selzer.....I always tell people who are new to the home to ignore him and after a min. he is fine.....on the street gonna go back to the treat "bride" lol, never thot of the thumb forefinger problem so will instruct not to do that, great point.... am gonna try the under the muzzle and chest technique....haven't done that yet, makes perfect sense......


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Anyhow, once you have trained him to the point where he can work on lead and off lead and will allow the stand for exam with your own trainer, start giving him that same command and have other people go over him. This is just a touch to the head, back, and butt, it is not a stroke, but three touches.


Cody use to have a hard time with the stand for exam for the CD. I started out in 4H with him so you could say I got a lot of "practice" with him but I didn't do AKC until he was 3-4 years, anyways, he never liked strangers going over him for that exercise. It took a good year for him to get use to it. It's a dominant thing to him, he would never growl, nothing, he just didn't like it but he would stay. When I started AKC, he got his CD in 3 shows all with 1st place and in the high 195's. Even today at almost 7 years, he is not into the whole stranger petting thing. Never has been and I'm not going force him to like it. 

Akbar also is aloof. He'd rather look at you and then continue on. There has only been a certain amount of strangers he's actually really liked for some reason. He's confident in new surrounds, loves going to dog shows because of other dogs, is fine walking around and near strangers, even brushes up against them if it get's to compact in an area like at a dog show and is perfectly fine. 

Isa on the other hand loves every ****, jane, and harry, lol. There has only been one person in her entire life time that she did NOT want to pet her. It was very odd to, I wonder if this person put something on. We have every month at various places an event for us people who like Ball Jointed Dolls to interact and share our dolls, well we had it at our house and many people came over, probably around 20 people. This lady walks in like everyone else and Isa greets her and is fine. This lady says she needs to use the restroom, walks out and nears Isa and suddenly she wants to get away from this person. Isa has never done any behavior like this since the 4 almost 5 years I've had her. It was odd indeed.... Makes me wonder what she put on because Isa wouldn't go into the bathroom that whole day...



> Lastly, there is no reason on Gods green earth that every Tom, ****, and Harry has to be allowed to pet your dog.


For some reason, I feel compelled to want to have a social dog who enjoys being petted....... I'm so use to Isa's joy at having someone pet her that I kind of forgot what it was like to have a dog that doesn't, ie Akbar, lol. Cody doesn't get out much because he's retired from sports as he has arthritis so he's not out there in public too often unless it's at a pet event or walking my dogs, or going to the park to throw the ball.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes it is not so much what we want, but what the dog is comfortable with. One of your dogs was a social butterfly, another is a different sort. We can condition the dog and build the confidence level, but if you want a dog who loves everyone, get an English Setter.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ....she is just the total description of "aloof" when it comes to the majority of strangers we encounter.


I wouldn't think that growling is "aloof" as the GSD standard indicates our dogs should be. Aloof to me means that the dog accepts the attention but doesn't react like we expect a Golden Retreiver for example to react and really like it.

A growl basically says "I don't like what you are doing and you better get away". The next step will often be a snap/bite if the other person or dog doesn't back off. 

If the dog is growling it should be interpreted as not very friendly and we shaould try to avoid putting our dogs in those situations that might elicit a growl (or condition them so they may not react that way if we can)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My use of the word 'aloof' was intended for the majority of time, there are times when no , she does not want to be touched by someone she doesn't know, and will elicit a low grumble, that's my cue that she is uncomfortable with the person, and they are instructed NOT to touch her.

She can sit/down/stand 1 foot from a person, with absolutely no reaction, she just prefers NOT to be touched by them. 

I , Like, Missy (akbar) , am learning to get used to a dog who would prefer to be ignored by others but can be taken into any situation and be fine with it. May not be ideal, but that's the way it is. 

I prefer to not correct that grumble/growl as I'd rather deal with that, then have a dog just 'go for it' with no warning. 

This is a dog who would let an axe murderer in the house (and I mean anyone) and lick them to death. She is just not a social butterfly out in public)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree to find some select people to help with interactions........people who are NOT afraid of your dog............and know how to go about it......which aren't many.....

my young male amost 2 years now was totally socialized with people, in classes from 12 weeks, went to work with me every day, met a new person every hald hour that handed treats and all positive stuff.....still does not like people in his space...does not like people approaching him, etc, etc..........its just the way he is........he will also growl, and no doubt would nip if i didn't control the situation..........he is very in tune with people and i have noticed if he even senses people are nervous around him or scared of him, he gets very uncomfortable..........

i have a Very selected few people helping me with him.........slowly getting up close and personal.........he also does not like eye contact.........with the help of one friend who has had gsd's for years and trained in SchH..............she can now make eye contact with him without a reaction, he will come up close to her sit and take treats without growling and backing away......this has been a long process........we met every week, and she goes a bit further, like patting his back while he takes treats etc......if he shows anything uncomfortable we back up...........

he will never be a dog that will just let anyone fall all over him.........but with careful conditioning he at least will learn to relax in the presence of people he knows......

i don't care that he's not going to be a golden retriever, my goal is to teach him if i say "friend" he can relax in their presence, and trust me to make the call...

i think their are many ways to define "Aloof" dogs growl, thats how they communicate, i would call that out of standard for a gsd..........i have also seen gsd's who are golden retriever like.......i have a friend who has a male and i call him "mr licky" he goes right up to people even if he doesn't know them and licks them to death..........so, would that be classified as not being within standard gsd behavior?


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

*For some reason, I feel compelled to want to have a social dog who enjoys being petted*....

_*Sometimes it is not so much what we want, but what the dog is comfortable with....

She can sit/down/stand 1 foot from a person, with absolutely no reaction, she just prefers NOT to be touched by them......

he will never be a dog that will just let anyone fall all over him*_......

*my goal is to teach him if i say "friend" he can relax in their presence, and trust me to make the call...*


I'm certainly glad I posted this question, so many of your comments, above included, really hit so close to home.....I feel much better about trusting and accepting who he is, but working with that personality from a training perspective to "tweek" certain aspects of it......I'm not new to dogs, but am certainly new to this "personality"!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Sometimes it is not so much what we want, but what the dog is comfortable with. One of your dogs was a social butterfly, another is a different sort. We can condition the dog and build the confidence level, but if you want a dog who loves everyone, get an English Setter.


Why? I love the German Shepherd. Even though Isa loves being petted, she does NOT act like a GR or a lab, she just stands there and leans into the person. She doesn't wag her tail madly or lick you, just stands there and "smiles", and if she relly likes you, you get a tail wag.  Akbar is different, very different but even though I love Isa's approach, both are still GSDs. And yes, I do prefer a GSD like Isa and hope to get more like her in the future.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It goes to correct temperament. A GSD is not supposed to be a dog that loves everyone, but it should be approachable. They are working dogs, guarding dogs, sheep guardians as well as herders. They do not make friends as quickly as we do.

However, the dog should take his cues from you and be approachable so long as you are not fearful about the encounter. If the dog does not trust you to protect him, he must protect himself. Generally rumblings or growls are warning the person to back off because the dog is uncertain or nervous. 

It is funny. We do meet and greet every time at dog classes where the instructor and or helpers come up and say hello and shake your hand. A lot of the dogs want to go forward and jump up on the person wagging and saying hello. My dogs sit at my side, and I know some are inwardly thinking: "Oh not this, I hope they do not want to touch me this time." Other people are calming their dogs down and commanding them to SIT. I always say "LAUNCH." and my dog sits calmly at my side. 

But the standard says they should be approachable, so the grumble is a little on the unapproachable side. I would not correct the grumble, but try with treats and praise (when not grumbling) to get the dog beyond this. Not to turn him into a black and tan pointy eared labrador, but to get him to the point where he is not so concerned when freindly people approach.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

debbiebrown said:


> i have a friend who has a male and i call him "mr licky" he goes right up to people even if he doesn't know them and licks them to death..........so, would that be classified as not being within standard gsd behavior?


Yes, it is not what was intended for an adult GSD according to our standard.

But I would certainly take that behavior over the opposite - an overly sharp dog or worse yet a fearful and/or shy dog.

And I have one who is a very friendly dog, although he is also very protective and we are working with him.

I think that any adult GSD should be good with kids and puppies also but that is a personal standard for me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Actually some Labs can be a bit grumbly themselves!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am just curious where this standard gsd behavior evolved from.....meaning a base in general.........there are different lines of the gsd........i can see why a showline would have to be approachable for showing purposes........but workingline protection lines would be more suspicious by nature......i think the standards should be updated on the GSD because i see alot more dogs with a suspicious nature nowdays.....maybe the breeding standards have changed????? to much inter-breeding? 

i agree that with a dog that appears uncomfortable with people approaching the handler needs to take charge and go accordingly........let the dog know they will protect them, etc, etc


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually Masi is VERY approachable, however, she prefers (if you are a stranger) to ignore her) She doesn't run and hide behind me, she actually behaves as selzer's description of her dog in a class, when shaking hands with a stranger/person. I don't see her being shy or fearful (have had fearful before)) . She is content to sit, wait, watch, just doesn't want to interact with you. 

I would say she has some suspicion to her, she is definately a 'watcher', she knows what's going on all around her without being a jerk about it) The incidents I see the growly/grumble is usually when a stranger is swinging arms, jerky motions, which may put her into a defensive mode. 

Hard to put into words I guess)

Wouldn't trade her for a million bucks. She's a good 'teacher' and we are always learning from our dogs. If I wanted a golden retriever, I would have gotten one. 

I know I could definately have much worse problems, just from seeing what's posted on this board on a daily basis.

She is what she is


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

from reading posts on here regularly i would say Masi is on the upper scale of what standard should be..........there are no perfect dogs for sure........they are all unique and all have things about them that we learn from.......if anyone were to post and say they had a perfect dog i would be a bit suspicious myself.......and if we all had perfect dogs.........this forum would be pretty boring......LOL


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks debbie, your right, we should all be so lucky to have perfect dogs, and yes, if we did it would be kinda boring))


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i am just curious where this standard gsd behavior evolved from.....meaning a base in general.........there are different lines of the gsd........i can see why a showline would have to be approachable for showing purposes........but workingline protection lines would be more suspicious by nature......i think the standards should be updated on the GSD because i see alot more dogs with a suspicious nature nowdays.....maybe the breeding standards have changed????? to much inter-breeding?
> 
> i agree that with a dog that appears uncomfortable with people approaching the handler needs to take charge and go accordingly........let the dog know they will protect them, etc, etc


This really got me thinking and I think you make a very interesting point about the difference between show dogs and more traditional working or protection lines. It made me consider a definition of "aloof" in the dictionary, here's the one I read:
*a·loof*

   /əˈluf/  Show Spelled[uh-loof]  Show IPA 
–adverb1.at a distance, esp. in feeling or interest; apart: They always stood aloof from their classmates. 


–adjective2.reserved or reticent; indifferent; disinterested: Because of his shyness, he had the reputation of being aloof. 




My guy is content to be in a sit or drop as I talk to a stranger and pays no attention to the person.....it seems he may be quite aloof as the definition indicates, but he is not approachable as the show standard requires.....in a way it seems contradictory to me.....I would tend to agree the kind of approachable that is required for show standard is different from a protection line dog, which is what my guy is.....and our breed didn't just start out competing in shows lol.....inter-breeding, I don't know, maybe.....but makes me wonder if we are requiring the dog/lines to be more approachable b/c of shows....dunno, just some random thoughts!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The German Shepherd Dog should be fearless and steady in nerve. A dog that shies away and will not allow someone to touch him is actually showing fear which is a character flaw. None of them are perfect, and if some of the show dogs and possibly other dogs from other lines, were not worked regularly to get them over this, there may be a lot more dogs with this characteristic. 

So the dog is supposed to allow you to approach, but he is not suppose to solicit pets from everyone. I think this approach would be when you are right there. If the dog is guarding the home, it may be a whole other story.

A protection trained dog should have nerves of steel, one should not train an unsound dog for protection, so the dog should be approachable. The only protection dog I knew was very approachable to everyone. He would not attack unless given the command.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Gib Laut said:


> .......
> My guy is content to be in a sit or drop as I talk to a stranger and pays no attention to the person.....it seems he may be quite aloof as the definition indicates, but he is not approachable as the show standard requires.....in a way it seems contradictory to me.....I would tend to agree the kind of approachable that is required for show standard is different from a protection line dog, which is what my guy is.....but makes me wonder if we are requiring the dog/lines to be more approachable b/c of shows....dunno, just some random thoughts!


 Any GSD should be approachable - but not necessarily while they are "working" depending on what they do for work.But even a protection dog is 'off-duty' some of the time and may even have to be out in public. After all a protection dog cannot be much protection if you can not take them around people. And i would certainly expect such a dog to be descriminating enough to NOT attack a 4 yo child who comes running up to the object of protection.

In other words the dog has to be approachable by innocent man and beast but also aloof so that they can just ignore most other people.

Difficult to describe but beautiful in existence.

I once saw a perfect example of this when my wife walked Julius Due's (a German judge and breeder legend in the GSDCA world) personal male GSD around a conformation dog around an AKC show one afternoon for wellover an hour. Only when she got back did we find out that he was a Sch3 who was hi scoring in protection at the German Seiger show twice! never would have known it from the dog's behavior - totally calm and "approachable". BUT can you imagine what would have transpired if some fool had tried to attack my wife while walking with him?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

this is my point..............i see alot of gsd's that have been socialized properly everything done right, classes, exposure, etc..........and still show uneasiness with people, dogs, etc.........and i see it alot in the workinglines........definitely character flaws.........as to where the temperments are very unpredictable........managable yes, but why are we seeing more of this? i could see if the owners were not training and exposing them to things early on and thereafter.........most of the people i see with these dogs are very dedicated to working with the problem and do end up managing it, but also living a life of a proactive dog owner because of the unprdictable nature of these dogs........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Gib good observation)
and debbie interesting point as well, I don't think we'll ever get a true answer


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Truth be known i think there are more of these types of dogs than people are willing to admit...........or the owners are just being proactive to the point where it can somewhat be hidden with leadership and training.....not that this should improvise the fact that its acceptable in the breed.........but its a reality..........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think we see it everyday just from reading posts on this very board)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

we see it here, and i see it all the time around here..........people i know in my classes with workingline dogs.........Even SchH people...........they do not let people approach their dogs...hmmmmmmm?? even off the field.......

honestly, the only people i know that have approachable GSD's are showling people.....


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

mis-spelling........showline people


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

codmaster said:


> BUT can you imagine what would have transpired if some fool had tried to attack my wife while walking with him?


 Nothing would happen. First, you don't know if the dog was trained in personal protection, second, I don't see any reason why the dog would decide to protect your wife. Just my opinion.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

I wanted to See what Josie would do in an uncontrolled enviroment with people approach her. I usually have her on a leash in a sit when people approach, she does soak up the attention.

However i saw somewhat a different side when she wasn't under my control. My cousin came by on his 4 wheeler when i was out running Josie at my dad's farm. She didn't have any care in the world. When the cousin approached and stopped his 4 wheeler in front of me, Josie came over to check out the guy, he leaned over and grabbed her head for a rough scratch. She kind of backed up alittle to show him that she didn't like that. She was actually polite about it. However when he called her over she did approach and she got a couple of scratches on her chest and she went on her way as if she had enough. 

She definitely was not all over him like a lab. But will stand her ground if being petted by a stranger.

She does very well in the stand exam.

Oh and Debbie, Josie isn't a showline and i do let folks pet her  she is definitely not unpredictable . Then again i guess every workingline Shepherd dog is different. Josie has always taken strangers very well.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Josie, thats great your dog friendly and comfortable with strangers.....especially the four-wheeler incident.......although her backing up does say she was a bit apprehensive about the guy reaching out to her......so, that tells me if someone were to push things its possible she could react.......i wouldn't let my dogs run up to a stanger unattended.........if you feel you can do that, thats great.........


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

Selzer, I like your advice the best. A GSD who growls may never make good on the threat, but then again, he might. He needs to learn to trust his owner to determine who is a danger and who is not. Once "Mom" gives him the settle or say hello or other greeting command, that should be it for any type of aggression (and growling is often a precursor to that). My 85 lb rottie mix has a similar temperament to Dex; she has been taught that it is simply not acceptable to react with a growl unless the threat is real danger, not merely a child or strange adult wanting to pet her on the back or the top of her head. She doesn't have to be enthusiastic about the attention, but she MUST rely on ME to make the decision to allow the petting.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

Funny thing is Debbie i've been told Show shepherds are more un-predictable and nervy. I really think it's the way the dog is brought up . 

I know Josie pretty well not to do anything. She does have a solid temperament.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

May i ask how you taught her not to react with a growl? if a dog cannot growl how does he say he's uncomfortable? or does he just go ahead and bite without warning? i guess as unacceptable or out of standard it is, i would much rather have a warning before a bite........i would think that way of training could backfire...........but thats just me.........

if a dog growls there is a reason for doing it..........right or wrong.....its still a warning....a warning that means the owner needs to remove the dog from the situation because they are not comfortable...........then proceed with counter-conditioning training...........etc


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