# Understanding pedigrees an values



## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

First off, this is purely for educational purposes.. I love Yoschi and have zero regret!!!

I am trying to learn how value is applied to GSD's.... I'd like to learn if Yoschi was over priced, under priced etc etc....

I would also like to have some help deciphering his pedigree for this same reason as well as to determine his potential based on pedigree alone...

On the koi forum I visit, it's considered tacky to say what you paid for a fish,, I am not sure the same applies here, so I'll wait to post that.. I'm hoping for an educational conversation about how breeders come up with a price and also to help me learn about my dogs lineage..
thanks in advance..

sire: V1-Gildo vom Herzbach SchH3, IPO3, FH, KKL1"a"
dam: V-Fenja vom Herzbach SchH3, FH, KKL1"a"


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

What does GSH-S after the names mean? I've never seen that before. Why aren't the dogs' titles listed on the pedigree? 

I'm not a pedigree expert and don't know anything about the particular dogs listed, but I recognize a couple of German showline kennel names.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

That is the Working-dog.eu pedigree. the GSH-S means German Shepherd Dog straight Hair top coat. One the database when you hover over the name it shows the datasheet for the dog and it will show any titles the dog has listed.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

robk said:


> That is the Working-dog.eu pedigree. the GSH-S means German Shepherd Dog straight Hair top coat. One the database when you hover over the name it shows the datasheet for the dog and it will show any titles the dog has listed.


She said Yoschi is a WGSL dog with strong working potential... does that match up with the pedigree?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

This is a standard WGSL pedigree. The V in front means an excellent show rating Titles Charts. The titles afterward are SchH3 schutzhund 3 (United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Schutzhund Training) IPO3 Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung 3 (What is Schutzhund and IPO? and Schutzhund Training, Schutzhund Titling, German Shepherd Training) 
FH is Fährtenhundprüfung advanced tracking dog exam. KK1a is breed survey for life. Here are breed survey rules and what it tests for: SV Breed Survey | Fred Lanting. 

Both sire and dam are titled well so that is probably why they say the puppy has good working potential and is WGSL. Sire goes back to Zamp and dam has Scott in her pedigree. I am guessing you paid more than what one would pay for a similar puppy in the states, but these sales are not uncommon so your price is probably what the market will bear. I don't think we have any rules about saying what you paid. In fact, there is a thread or two out there about how much each person paid for his or her dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

In the US, puppy prices for German showline GSDs such as yours, range from about $1800 on up to $8000 (ridiculous), with $2000-3000 the average. I want to say you get what you pay for, but with dogs, it isn't always true... there can be great breeders who only charge a low-end price, and awful breeders who charge $5000 or more, and everything in between. It's more about finding the right breeder than the right price, IMO.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> This is a standard WGSL pedigree. The V in front means an excellent show rating Titles Charts. The titles afterward are SchH3 schutzhund 3 (United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Schutzhund Training) IPO3 Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung 3 (What is Schutzhund and IPO? and Schutzhund Training, Schutzhund Titling, German Shepherd Training)
> FH is Fährtenhundprüfung advanced tracking dog exam. KK1a is breed survey for life. Here are breed survey rules and what it tests for: SV Breed Survey | Fre:d Lanting.
> 
> Both sire and dam are titled well so that is probably why they say the puppy has good working potential and is WGSL. Sire goes back to Zamp and dam has Scott in her pedigree. I am guessing you paid more than what one would pay for a similar puppy in the states, but these sales are not uncommon so your price is probably what the market will bear. I don't think we have any rules about saying what you paid. In fact, there is a thread or two out there about how much each person paid for his or her dog.


Fwiw I paid $2800+tt&l=$3200


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

That is not bad. Pretty standard for a WGSL stock coat pup out of titled, rated, breed surveyed parents.


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## FirstTimeGSD (Jul 31, 2012)

Yoschi, besides your koi, do you have any other pets?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yoschi's_Pet_Human said:


> Fwiw I paid $2800+tt&l=$3200


Tax, title, and license? On a dog?


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

Emoore said:


> Tax, title, and license? On a dog?


yep,, paid sales tax,, transfer of ownership fee,, akc registration fee and microchip fee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

transfer of ownership? Did you have to pay a service charge on the deposit you placed?

My dogs breeder chipped their pups at no charge....tattoo'd no charge....registration for akc was done before the pups left the breeder....again no charge.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

FirstTimeGSD said:


> Yoschi, besides your koi, do you have any other pets?


yeah,, a few.... A Lhasa Apso female. Daisy.., a Lhasa Apso/Schitzu mix, Abbey.. Daisy's puppy from her and our now gone schitzu Gizmo... A Cinnamon Turquoise Green Cheeked Conure, A Red Foot Tortoise,, A 6000 Gallon Koi Pond, home to 20 koi,, A 110 gallon Mbuna tank in the living room, a 65 gallon Goldfish tank in our bedroom, a 45 gallon aquarium, home to one Oscar in my son's room and a Red Kneed Turantula....


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> transfer of ownership? Did you have to pay a service charge on the deposit you placed?
> 
> My dogs breeder chipped their pups at no charge....tattoo'd no charge....registration for akc was done before the pups left the breeder....again no charge.


to be honest, I'm not too sure


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> transfer of ownership? Did you have to pay a service charge on the deposit you placed?
> 
> My dogs breeder chipped their pups at no charge....tattoo'd no charge....registration for akc was done before the pups left the breeder....again no charge.


the transfer of ownership was for the pink papers,, he came with a german microchip, but we had to pay for the american,, also had to pay to register him as a foreign dog with the akc


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> transfer of ownership? Did you have to pay a service charge on the deposit you placed?
> 
> My dogs breeder chipped their pups at no charge....tattoo'd no charge....registration for akc was done before the pups left the breeder....again no charge.


Yep, mine too, except for the microchip. I had my vet do that when my pup was 14 weeks.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

Emoore and Onyx girl...were your dogs from Germany?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No, mine was from a great breeder less than two hours from me! I didn't need to go far to get the perfect pup


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> No, mine was from a great breeder less than two hours from me! I didn't need to go far to get the perfect pup


I'm pretty sure all those "extra" charges were due to him being a foreigner... we found him by accident,, weren't looking specifically for one from Germany,, the lady that we got him from was only an hour away


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A pedigree's and dog's value is all relative to who paid for it and what they want from that dog. Many people on this forum will tell you that you could've gotten something cheaper that would probably meet your goals. To tell you the truth, SchH3, IPO3, KKL1, is really not hard to find all throughout a pedigree if you find a good breeder and most of those pups in the United States are going for much less than what you paid.

The thing with pedigrees that I have learned is that unless you really really really know what you're looking for. You know what a certain dog produces and want that dog in the 3rd generation and another dog in the 2nd and another in the 4th ect. ect...you won't really get anything out of looking at a pedigree. When it comes to show lines...you're really paying for the prospect of winning shows and possibly sudding/breeding later on to make a little bit back (and the glory of telling your neighbor's your dog is from champion lines). It's an inflated price that is due to the market, not really the true value of a dog.

Value is very subjective. You have a great dog, from great parents, and you should be very happy with your purchase. You will find 100 people on this forum that will tell you that you could've gotten the same thing in America for cheaper/less. You paid a premium for a dog imported from Germany, maybe that comes with some benefits maybe it doesn't (again very subjective).

A good working line prospect can probably be imported from Germany for 1000-1500, which is what you would pay in America from any number of great breeders.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, sometimes breeders will break down all the costs separately. Others will just charge a flat price for the pup and you get it all included. It sounds to me, though that your pup came from a broker, so I can understand them charging for every individual thing.
off topic some: 
I looked at your first thread, and the koi part is interesting. I have 16 koi, we paid $75 for all of them when they were smaller(the breeder would charge according to size and then charged a bit more for the butterfly's) They are so big now, I need to get a few moved to other ponds! Do your Koi change in color/markings as they age? I think a few of mine have. So far, we haven't had babies(they probably get eaten) maybe we could start a thread in the chat room, I know a few others here have ponds.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Well, sometimes breeders will break down all the costs separately. Others will just charge a flat price for the pup and you get it all included. It sounds to me, though that your pup came from a broker, so I can understand them charging for every individual thing.
> off topic some:
> I looked at your first thread, and the koi part is interesting. I have 16 koi, we paid $75 for all of them when they were smaller(the breeder would charge according to size and then charged a bit more for the butterfly's) They are so big now, I need to get a few moved to other ponds! Do your Koi change in color/markings as they age? I think a few of mine have. So far, we haven't had babies(they probably get eaten) maybe we could start a thread in the chat room, I know a few others here have ponds.


They definitely change as they get older .. to be honest, butterflies ate frowned upon by some .. I have a couple though.. most of my koi came from japan via a broker but were only $50-$100 as babies.. I have one I paid $600 for... bit in the world of koi shows, $600 is an entry level fish... I really do love koi... Google it and look for koi shows in your area.. they're held mostly in Tue fall but sometimes in the spring as well.. once you see a real, full sized show quality koi,, you'll never look at them the same... 
The forum I go yo for koi is Koiphen.com or koibito


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

My wife laughs at me, talking about koi on a GSD forum and I've been talking about GSDs on the koi forum LOL


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