# The effects of different collars on dog's spine.



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Thought this was an interesting article about the different risks behind alllll the kinds of training collars and harnesses on the market these days.

Sorry if it's a duplicate thread, I searched and couldn't find it anywhere recently around here. I think bottom line, know how to use the tool and use it properly, like we always say....just thought it was a thought provoking article.

Happy reading 

Caring for your Dog's Neck and Spine: Dog Collar Issues - DogBreedz.com

ETA: My apologies if "affect" is the proper grammar. I get those two confused constantly lol.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Nice article. Thanks for posting. And you're right - "effect" is correct.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Nice to see their comments regarding the use of a prong collar.......best one to use 

SuperG


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## Botox (Feb 7, 2014)

Wow I was surprised by the prong collar mention. I use it in my home when I am training on a 4ft lead, however she is still a 14 almost 15 week old puppy I am worried that when she gets excited on walks outside that she will hurt herself. I realize the dog needing to realize that she is the one causing the correction is the desired result, however I still worry that she will try and bolt off to people when we are walking by. Maybe in a few weeks  good read though thanks for posting


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

Good read. I too was surprised about his take on the prong collar. I was not expecting that reaction.


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

Good read. I've been on the fence about the prong collar for a while now... I made the decision to put one around my own neck and give it a nice pop..... It was quite a shock. I've seen the good things it can do, and I planned to use it... I was just afraid it could harm her. This has made me feel infinitely better. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Great read. Definitely sharing it so others can see why I choose to use a prong collar.

On that note, please don't use them on dogs less than 6 months old or 40lbs. It ISN'T safe at that point. A 14/15 week old should NOT be wearing one. As with any tool, there ARE ways to abuse them.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Nice informative read about collars and the ever controversial prong collar. I have used the prong on 2 of my dogs with help from a trainer. It was the right move.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Excellent, print that one the next time you get attacked by a behaviorist


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Awesome find Dani! I knew the prong was the safest collar, but it's always nice to have an expert's affirmation, lol. Thanks


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Botox said:


> Wow I was surprised by the prong collar mention. I use it in my home when I am training on a 4ft lead, however she is still a 14 almost 15 week old puppy I am worried that when she gets excited on walks outside that she will hurt herself. I realize the dog needing to realize that she is the one causing the correction is the desired result, however I still worry that she will try and bolt off to people when we are walking by. Maybe in a few weeks  good read though thanks for posting


Two points on the prong first I wouldn't use one on a dog until I can see a problem that needs correcting. And this is a puppy so there's that.

Second I try and figure out what I'm doing wrong before I grab a tool to fix a dog.
Having said that if you can do this, then you have no problem!






But this these would be my first choices (I don't do the clicker thing myself)


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*" I try and figure out what I'm doing wrong before I grab a tool to fix a dog."


*Very wise words.....I tend to look to my own failings first before I look for the "easy" fix.

SuperG


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Great point on the "easy fix" thing - but also...

Some dogs are quick to catch on to leash training (cue Patton!) and other dogs are very slow and resilient to your training despite different methods, and you just have to have a management tool to be able to get through your walk/potty break safely - cue the prong collar! 

I didn't realize that Frag couldn't walk outside on a leash without dragging us around until he was almost two and we moved to the city for college. I was like *crap* I have a 90lb dog that has no idea how to walk about on the sidewalk. We didn't have a fenced yard, and I started with silky leash training instantly, but still had to take him out on a prong collar every time because he could pull me around easily if he wanted to, and sometimes he did! I am 140lbs so it wasn't easy for me to control him. Prong helped give me some "power steering" while I worked on training the problem through positive reinforcement, and I never used it to correct him, just for him to correct himself.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

SuperG said:


> *" I try and figure out what I'm doing wrong before I grab a tool to fix a dog."
> 
> 
> *Very wise words.....I tend to look to my own failings first before I look for the "easy" fix.
> ...


I don't think it's about "ease," just training tools and preferences. A prong collar isn't a "last resort" or something to use when "all else fails." It's just another way to get a clear message to a dog. 

My personal opinion is that the prong itself doesn't screw up the dog....inconsistent, badly timed, training, does. It has to be clear and *consistent*. The dog can't behave one way sometimes and not be allowed to do it others (leash pulling, jumping, breaking a down, etc). Dog can't get a correction for breaking the down and then other times the dog is allowed to break the down himself. 

When I first started training I asked my dog to "down" he downed...then a second or so later, he started to get up. I gave another verbal...he paused...I gave the verbal again, and he went into a down again...The trainer was like, "so...which command does he have to listen to, the third one, the one with the most 'serious' tone??" lol. I was told to go to him when he broke it, take his collar, and lead him to the ground by the collar (not rough or anything). He fought me, but eventually calmed, and stayed in the down. Then broke it again, I took the collar again, gave the command and put him in a down (there were lots of releases and praise throughout the session to release the dog from the pressure). I could have used a prong to correct for breaking the down, I really think it wouldn't have mattered to the dog. I think I would have achieved the same success, because I was being consistent. 

I wasn't being consistent before. The dog didn't know which command was my "serious" command....it took that one session for me to go from a dog that released himself, to a dog that waited to be released because he knew if he broke it, I was going to come and lead him to the ground again...I wasn't just going to nag him with another verbal command. I think so many of us aren't consistent. Dogs test it too...."is she really going to make me down, or is this just nagging and I'll just wait until she gets serious." 

My point is, I'd venture to guess that a lot of the "misuse" of tools like a prong, are owners that stick it on the dog, and give corrections now and then....aren't clear, aren't timed correctly, and are not consistent (sometimes the dog "gets away with" the behavior, other times it doesn't, so it will always test it and will definitely break it during distraction). Anyway, just thinking out loud lol.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Two points on the prong first I wouldn't use one on a dog until I can see a problem that needs correcting. And this is a puppy so there's that.
> 
> Second I try and figure out what I'm doing wrong before I grab a tool to fix a dog.
> Having said that if you can do this, then you have no problem!


Excellent post!

Although I personally don't believe in using prong collars, I do think that if someone does choose to use one that the dog should fully understand what you are asking before you correct him. It is a tool, just as a gentle leader, which also should be used while teaching the dog, not as a crutch to not teach the dog how to walk on a leash (like the person in my neighborhood that rides her bike with her dog on a gentle leader with a retractable leash...how confused is that dog?!)

Obviously if your dog doesn't pull, then the various potential problems with flat collars, harnesses, etc that the author lists aren't an issue.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I should add...I always have to laugh at people who shun or belittle someone(speaking generally here, not to any previous posters, SuperG I don't think you are saying this) who uses a prong/ecollar as a "quick/easy" way to do something .....yeah...so?? When it comes to pet obedience, and the dog quickly understanding a command and moving on, I just don't know why you'd want to draw that out if it isn't necessary? How is that fun for the dog, why not just teach it, clear, concise, and move on? Especially a lower nerve dog prone to stress. 

I've seen great success achieved with some horrible rescue dogs (nervy, DA, HA, etc), and almost every one was done on an ecollar. The dogs weren't traumatized, on the contrary, most were saved from their path to euth. I mean, it's wonderful if you want to achieve the reliability in obedience via a more drawn out way, I just don't like when those same people turn around to those using ecollars and prongs and say things like "well...I don't want the easy/quick route...." In a way that implies that those using those tools don't want to take the time to do it the "right way." One isn't more right than the other....

Of course, I don't think you should rush anything....I just don't think it needs to be super slow either for *most dogs.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Two points on the prong *first I wouldn't use one on a dog until I can see a problem that needs correcting*. And this is a puppy so there's that.
> 
> Second I try and figure out what I'm doing wrong before I grab a tool to fix a dog.
> Having said that if you can do this, then you have no problem!
> ...


That's fine that *you* wouldn't do that...however, a lot of people use a prong, ecollar, choke collar, etc...to proof the commands. In any method of training you have to proof the commands. Proofing isn't a "problem" it's teaching the dog that even under distraction, it has to perform the command. I think most family pets can perform "sit, stay, down" in their kitchen, with their family. You walk the dog out the front door and try it, on the lawn, the dog won't do it. This isn't a "problem" it's natural, there are things of higher value than you to the dog around. Some will "proof" the command in the new environment, under distraction...sometimes this is done with a prong. I wouldn't call it a last resort because of a problem. Just a tool used to proof the dog, or further clearly teach it what is/isn't acceptable. If that makes sense.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> When I first started training I asked my dog to "down" he downed...then a second or so later, he started to get up. I gave another verbal...he paused...I gave the verbal again, and he went into a down again...The trainer was like, "so...which command does he have to listen to, the third one, the one with the most 'serious' tone??" lol. I was told to go to him when he broke it, take his collar, and lead him to the ground by the collar (not rough or anything). He fought me, but eventually calmed, and stayed in the down. Then broke it again, I took the collar again, gave the command and put him in a down (there were lots of releases and praise throughout the session to release the dog from the pressure). .


And just when you think you know everything! I am still guilty of that one! Go to the dog! :blush:

I don't use or need corrections on Rock at all "Wobblers" so no pressure on his neck ever but he is kinda blase with snapping to a stay,not as fast as I'd like. But I can go to him, gotta let him wobble once or twice! Rock solid on the stay but kinda slow getting there! Thanks!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> And just when you think you know everything! I am still guilty of that one! Go to the dog! :blush:
> 
> I don't use or need corrections on Rock at all "Wobblers" so no pressure on his neck ever but he is kinda blase with snapping to a stay,not as fast as I'd like. But I can go to him, gotta let him wobble once or twice! Rock solid on the stay but kinda slow getting there! Thanks!


Aw, poor old guy. Nah, he deserves to just be spoiled, with lots of kisses and treats. ;-)


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Very surprising article. Thanks.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Aw, poor old guy. Nah, he deserves to just be spoiled, with lots of kisses and treats. ;-)


Yeah poor old guy not! Dominate Aggressive male, Big time! lots of work went into him!

My intro into GSD's and what high rank Dive mean!! Only one of my dogs that caught a bird in an open field???

Came to my defense when I slipped on ice while protecting him from charging dogs and deterred them with extreme prejudice! He does all right with his Scooby Doo prance!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> That's fine that *you* wouldn't do that...however, a lot of people use a prong, ecollar, choke collar, etc...to proof the commands. In any method of training you have to proof the commands. Proofing isn't a "problem" it's teaching the dog that even under distraction, it has to perform the command. I think most family pets can perform "sit, stay, down" in their kitchen, with their family. You walk the dog out the front door and try it, on the lawn, the dog won't do it. This isn't a "problem" it's natural, there are things of higher value than you to the dog around. Some will "proof" the command in the new environment, under distraction...sometimes this is done with a prong. I wouldn't call it a last resort because of a problem. Just a tool used to proof the dog, or further clearly teach it what is/isn't acceptable. If that makes sense.


 For the record, none of my remarks are directed at people that "Know what they are doing" with these tools, they are not the ones looking for a quick fix. JQP is the one that "slaps" a tool on a dog for a quick easy answer. If you already know how to use these tools then no problem.

Had I seen the video on the prong,that I posted when I was training my dog (13 years ago), I would not have made the mistakes I did with my first dog and a prong collar. "I" was the guy I'm taking about! 

Just wanted to make that clear. 

And yes I understand your point about proofing the dog..fortunately for me,I only used it for screwing up my first dog's on leash behavior!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thanks for sharing the article!


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Very interesting article.

I have never used a prong collar and only seen one once, so excuse this question if it is silly - can the actual prongs puncture the dogs skin? or are the prongs blunt?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The prongs are blunt. It is about pressure.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

thanks David


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Just a side note.. because not all prong collars are created equal.. You have to get a good one.. The ones that the ends are more rounded versus the cheaper ones that are flat and the edges are sharp..


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## GSKnight (Oct 18, 2011)

Good article... With Viktor, I use several types of collars and change them up depending on what we are doing, where we are doing it, how he is behaving... (prong, choke, martindale and flat)


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Just a heads up, for people who've never used a prong: it is not a "quick fix" at all. There's no such thing as a quick fix, lol. It does make the dog tend not to pull, because it's not comfortable. Just like wearing high heels and panyhose will make a woman not race up a flight of stairs - except in the movies, lol.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I use a prong collar on both of my dogs, they are the best tools ever.


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## nicky (Jan 12, 2014)

Thanks for posting that article. I might just have to print it and keep it in my pocket for the next person who says "look at that collar, that's so mean". One of the ladies that said that had a choke collar on her dog.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Just a heads up, for people who've never used a prong: it is not a "quick fix" at all. There's no such thing as a quick fix, lol. It does make the dog tend not to pull, because it's not comfortable. Just like wearing high heels and panyhose will make a woman not race up a flight of stairs - except in the movies, lol.


You've solved it!! If prong collars get banned everywhere, we'll just develop a high heels/pantyhose system to train dogs in!! hahaha  Picturing a GSD in high heels made me smile this morning.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They didn't mention martingales. Martingales tighten the same exact way a prong does, but they are not correction collars so they do not give the effect of power steering. However, if you teach your dog to walk with a loose leash, then you do not need to be pulling, yanking, or correcting them. 

I use a flat collar for the tags. 

What they said about the choke chain is not correct. The idea is not to let the dog pull until it chokes itself. That is ridiculous and uninformed. The choke chain is a correction collar like the prong collar. It should remain loose around the dog's neck. When the dog reaches beyond where it should be, a correction is given and the pressure is immediately released. Usually the sound of the chain is enough for the dog to know it is not where it ought to be. 

Unfortunately, the choke chain has been used poorly and ineffectively by millions of people because they are cheap and readily available. People put them on backwards so that they do not release tension, they yank and crank away, they let the dog pull, pull, pull, they have even hung dogs up by them until the dogs are unconscious. It is not a tool I feel comfortable suggesting because of how easy it can be abused, however, it can be safe and effective. 

The chiro that wrote the article could have made it an article that says, "train your dog to walk on a loose lead, otherwise he will be out of alignment." Instead he picks the collar that causes the least trouble because it self-corrects, and the dog there fore isn't pulling the owner using its neck. However, depending on the use of the prong, you can still do more damage with a prong collar through corrective pops, than you will if you train the dog without the used of these types of corrections. 

I am not a fan of prong collars. I am not purely positive reinforcement either. But I do not like using leash corrections on dogs specifically because a dog that is corrected will generally need stronger and stronger corrections to avoid behaviors that are of more value to him, which means stronger leash pops, prong collar or no, and that means it is likely that you will cause damage to the dog's alignment. There are better methods out there to train dogs. 

If you repeat his little study and check out dogs that have been trained to walk with a loose leash, then I am sure you will have less issues with those dogs overall, than any of the collars for dogs not trained. 

It is just a feel-good article for people who use prongs, when places are banning them.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There are lots of people who use a prong collar on their dogs because the dogs are better behaved in public when they're wearing one. They don't tend to pull or lunge because they don't like the sensation. It would be easy to say "train your dog" but the reality is that some of these dogs just won't be out in public anymore without a prong. The other problem is that without the prong, in public, these dogs are going to act like the rottie down the road here: dragging his owner wherever he likes, showing the world that she has zero control over him, and scaring the crap out of other people who are nervous when they see an out-of-control large dog like that. It might help influence people who want to ban certain breeds, because they're afraid of them.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> However, depending on the use of the prong, you can still do more damage with a prong collar through corrective pops, than you will if you train the dog without the used of these types of corrections.


Damage how Selzer? In what sense are you talking about?



> I am not a fan of prong collars. I am not purely positive reinforcement either. *But I do not like using leash corrections on dogs specifically because a dog that is corrected will generally need stronger and stronger corrections to avoid behaviors that are of more value to him, which means stronger leash pops, prong collar or no, and that means it is likely that you will cause damage to the dog's alignment.*


Interesting comment.. Especially coming from someone who doesn't like the prong, nor uses one..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> There are lots of people who use a prong collar on their dogs because the dogs are better behaved in public when they're wearing one. They don't tend to pull or lunge because they don't like the sensation. It would be easy to say "train your dog" but the reality is that some of these dogs just won't be out in public anymore without a prong. The other problem is that without the prong, in public, these dogs are going to act like the rottie down the road here: dragging his owner wherever he likes, showing the world that she has zero control over him, and scaring the crap out of other people who are nervous when they see an out-of-control large dog like that. It might help influence people who want to ban certain breeds, because they're afraid of them.


Whatever. One does not need a prong collar to train a dog. What you are saying is that too many people are not willing to go the whole nine yards and train their dog. They are banned in some places. I wonder what all those people are going to do now. If you cannot control your dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog. Prong collars come open -- then what do you do??? The dog gets to the nasty little dog and chews it up because you have zero control over it and haven't bothered to train it because you have this beautiful device that makes him safe in public. I am truly glad that they do not fail often, but it is only masking the symptom, it does nothing about the problem.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

It's interesting because I don't think anyone said they were using leash corrections for this purpose, here. 

I use prongs for walking to help me control the dog and get some self-correction. I don't pop the leash, though.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Not all dogs that wear prongs are wearing them to mask horrible anti-social behavior, like chowing down others' pets. I think those dogs are kept behind fences. And anyone who doesn't double up with a safety back-up collar is tempting fate: you can't blame the collar if they like to gamble with it.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

selzer said:


> If you cannot control your dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog.


Wow. 

I guess I shouldn't own dogs then because I use a prong on both of my dogs. I must be a bad and unfit owner. Oh and neither of my dogs would charge another animal or a person.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

G-burg said:


> Damage how Selzer? In what sense are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting comment.. Especially coming from someone who doesn't like the prong, nor uses one..


I have been around the block a few times. I have an e-collar, I have a prong collar, I have tried it on a couple of dogs. Now, I choose to not use these things. But if a dog can be damaged with a choke chain, or a flat collar he can be damaged with a prong as well. Some dogs pull on prong collars. Some people give a lot of leash corrections with a prong collar.
And people generally build the dog's tolerance to corrections by starting out small and increasing their correction if needed. 

If you train with very few corrections, any correction verbal or physical has much more punch. It is not permissiveness because you are not letting a dog get away with any unwanted behaviors, but you are saving your negative markers for what really counts, and therefore you do not need a lot of negative markers. You teach the dog what to do. You tell the dog what to do. It works a lot better than yanking a dog for doing something he shouldn't do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LaRen616 said:


> Wow.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't own dogs then because I use a prong on both of my dogs. I must be a bad and unfit owner. Oh and neither of my dogs would charge another animal or a person.


Take it out of context if you want to. I said if you cannot control your dog without the collar, not if you use the collar. What Blanketback was saying is that all these dogs will be left home, because they will act idiotic when brought into a public place dragging the owner to other dogs, people, etc. If that is what you have LaRen, then no, you shouldn't own those dogs. But it does not sound like that is what you have.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blanketback said:


> Not all dogs that wear prongs are wearing them to mask horrible anti-social behavior, like chowing down others' pets. I think those dogs are kept behind fences. And anyone who doesn't double up with a safety back-up collar is tempting fate: you can't blame the collar if they like to gamble with it.


I have never, not once, seen any dog in a prong collar with a back up. Halti's yes. Prongs, no. I have been in a class where a fiesty nasty terrier broke the prong collar and went charging off after another dog in the class. They do break or open. But most people do not bother with a back up.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> Whatever. One does not need a prong collar to train a dog. What you are saying is that too many people are not willing to go the whole nine yards and train their dog. They are banned in some places. I wonder what all those people are going to do now. *If you cannot control your dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog.* Prong collars come open -- then what do you do??? The dog gets to the nasty little dog and chews it up because you have zero control over it and haven't bothered to train it because you have this beautiful device that makes him safe in public. I am truly glad that they do not fail often, but it is only masking the symptom, it does nothing about the problem.


Selzer, until you own a dog that is truly high drive, high prey, high defense, I really think you should check your judgemental, know-it-all, my-training-is superior, my dogs-are-superior, attitude. Until you have a dog, you've trained yourself, title in IPO, SDA, or anything high intensity, I just don't want to hear it. And your dog you purchased with a title, doesn't count towards your ability to train/handle high drive.

By self-admission, you breed a laid back GSD. I'd loooove to see you take a hold of the 5 month old nutcase in active thread right now, whose owner is on her last rope. Or the out of control....two seconds from Euth rottie, I watched be completely turned around with an ecollar. That's FINE that you train how you train, but don't assume because you've put CGC titles on several dogs, you know or understand the other side of the spectrum of training.....


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## nicky (Jan 12, 2014)

Selzer- Can you explain how you would train this dog to walk on a leash? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious. 


The Good Dog Minute 11/26/12: How we teach a 90 pound pit to walk perfectly in one session! - YouTube


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

Selzer it seems like you have an axe to grind against prong collars and are not really responding to what the article says. You can do damage with any type of collar, and if your dog never pulls it can be made out of nails and won't damage them because there will never be pressure. The article is stating that prong collars apply pressure more evenly around the neck than other collars which from my experience is true because of the design. The article isn't talking about how to due corrections or about how people can abuse any collar. The doctor just states that he has found that dog's that use this particular collar have far less upper cervical subluxations than with any other collar type. 

Maybe some people have perfect dogs that will never pull under any cicrumstances. When you are on a walk and a rabbit runs in front of your dog I would say the majority of dogs react. I'm sure some would sit there perfectly but I would not say that is the norm.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

selzer said:


> I have been around the block a few times. I have an e-collar, I have a prong collar, I have tried it on a couple of dogs. Now, I choose to not use these things. But if a dog can be damaged with a choke chain, or a flat collar he can be damaged with a prong as well. Some dogs pull on prong collars. Some people give a lot of leash corrections with a prong collar.
> And people generally build the dog's tolerance to corrections by starting out small and increasing their correction if needed.
> 
> If you train with very few corrections, any correction verbal or physical has much more punch. It is not permissiveness because you are not letting a dog get away with any unwanted behaviors, but you are saving your negative markers for what really counts, and therefore you do not need a lot of negative markers. You teach the dog what to do. You tell the dog what to do. It works a lot better than yanking a dog for doing something he shouldn't do.


Using a prong *incorrectly* can damage a dog. 
I do not understand your theory of saving negative markers for what really counts. Anytime my dog disobeys a known command, then it really counts.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Okin said:


> Selzer it seems like you have an axe to grind against prong collars and are not really responding to what the article says. You can do damage with any type of collar, and if your dog never pulls it can be made out of nails and won't damage them because there will never be pressure. The article is stating that prong collars apply pressure more evenly around the neck than other collars which from my experience is true because of the design. *The article isn't talking about how to due corrections or about how people can abuse any collar. The doctor just states that he has found that dog's that use this particular collar have far less upper cervical subluxations than with any other collar type*.
> 
> Maybe some people have perfect dogs that will never pull under any cicrumstances. When you are on a walk and a rabbit runs in front of your dog I would say the majority of dogs react. I'm sure some would sit there perfectly but I would not say that is the norm.


:thumbup:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I've never used my prong collar without a back-up, and I've had it for about 20 years (thank you, HS for the great quality) so I guess I was blessed with a higher-than-average IQ because it's pretty straightforward to me: the links aren't physically connected to one another. Of course it would require a back-up that was actually one piece. You can't blame the collar.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Selzer, until you own a dog that is truly high drive, high prey, high defense, I really think you should check your judgemental, know-it-all, my-training-is superior, my dogs-are-superior, attitude. Until you have a dog, you've trained yourself, title in IPO, SDA, or anything high intensity, I just don't want to hear it.


I agree DaniFani.....

I love that fact that those of us who do know how to train dogs, have been doing it wrong all these years!! With all the wrong equipment!!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> They didn't mention martingales. Martingales tighten the same exact way a prong does, but they are not correction collars so they do not give the effect of power steering. However, if you teach your dog to walk with a loose leash, then you do not need to be pulling, yanking, or correcting them.
> 
> I use a flat collar for the tags.
> 
> ...


Of course that's how you'd interpret it....it's results you don't like. Nevermind he's a doctor, and is simply stating where he sees the most problems compared to other areas.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Selzer, until you own a dog that is truly high drive, high prey, high defense, I really think you should check your judgemental, know-it-all, my-training-is superior, my dogs-are-superior, attitude. Until you have a dog, you've trained yourself, title in IPO, SDA, or anything high intensity, I just don't want to hear it. And your dog you purchased with a title, doesn't count towards your ability to train/handle high drive.
> 
> By self-admission, you breed a laid back GSD. I'd loooove to see you take a hold of the 5 month old nutcase in active thread right now, whose owner is on her last rope. Or the out of control....two seconds from Euth rottie, I watched be completely turned around with an ecollar. That's FINE that you train how you train, but don't assume because you've put CGC titles on several dogs, you know or understand the other side of the spectrum of training.....


I've put RNs on 6 different dogs in six months time. I have trained dogs that I have raised and whelped to CD. I don't care at all about IPO. I have an IPO dog, and she isn't anything higher in drive or harder in temperament than my dogs. I don't know that I have said I breed laid-back dogs. I would like to know where you came up with that. I am not breeding working line dogs. 

The vast majority of people out there yanking and cranking on prong collars are not going for IPO, they do not have hard, high drive, high energy or defiant dogs. They have ordinary dogs, they have labs and goldens and showline GSDs all on prong collars. They start puppies out under 4 months of age on prong collars. They think they are defiant. People think dogs that poop in the house are being defiant. And that is what they think about pulling and all those other behaviors. 

I actually have suggested prong collars to some people. But as a training device, not as a regular collar, not forever, but only until the dog is trained. I don't think prongs hurt dogs to use them as a regular collar, but I think that there is the temptation to just forget about it, when the pulling and lunging stops because of the collar. When we have effectively masked the symptom.

But what we are talking about is whether or not the collar can cause spinal injury. Sure it can. Put something high on a dog's neck and then yank it. Yes it can cause problems, like any collar can. It can avoid the problems associated with chronic pulling.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm sorry, but my nervy pet dogs can get rally and obedience titles... it is not the same as a powerful high drive dog doing protection at all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm sorry, but my nervy pet dogs can get rally and obedience titles... it is not the same as a powerful high drive dog doing protection at all.



Are we saying then that working line dogs, protection dogs, high drive dogs cannot be trained without prong collars? 

I wonder what people do in places where they are not allowed. Must be a lot of cheating going on somewhere. 

But I did not say anything about high drive protection dogs. You all are bringing that up. 

Look at all the dogs people say are dominant. Most of them aren't. Some of them are the exact opposite of dominant. Some are just ordinary puppy-crazy.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I do think that what people want as end results are going to influence things somewhat too. If your priority is leash manners, then your dog will be proficient on the leash. If you're like me and don't want a dog on a leash, then it's going to be a different style of training altogether.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Why does everything have to turn into a prong (or e-collar) debate?

I think the basis of the article is pretty simple... yanking on the dog's neck/head is bad. Period. Some pieces of equipment are going to naturally, due to the way they work, lessen the frequency or severity of the yanking, pulling or lunging that occurs. Therefore, from the standpoint of spinal health, they are preferable. That doesn't mean that they are/aren't preferable from an overall standpoint for any given dog or situation.

As far as the "train your dog" argument, well obviously training is important. However, with most dogs and humans here in this mortal realm where not everyone is perfect all of the time, there is an "in training" period where the dog doesn't know that yet or isn't yet reliable to not yank and pull in all situations, but alas still has to be taken on leash somewhere for something and some yanking or pulling may occur, in which case this sort of information is an important factor to consider, amongst others, when deciding what sort of equipment to use during that time.

Additonally, whether we like it or not, we should accept that most dog owners are not dog trainers, they are dog managers. So long as they are able to have their dog behave acceptably in public, that is all that they care about. And if a piece of equipment can accomplish that easier and quicker than actual training it is what they are going to use. Certainly not a situation that we lofty dog owners and expert trainers on the forum consider proper, but it is reality for probably most dogs in the world. A lot of people are going to rely on equipment rather than training and if doing so allows dog and owner to live together happily the world won't end. Certainly there are far worse fates for a dog than wearing a prong on a walk. And since that is going to happen, then again information on the safety of different types of equipment is important for owners to have.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chris Wild said:


> Why does everything have to turn into a prong (or e-collar) debate?
> 
> I think the basis of the article is pretty simple... yanking on the dog's neck/head is bad. Period. Some pieces of equipment are going to naturally, due to the way they work, lessen the frequency or severity of the yanking, pulling or lunging that occurs. Therefore, from the standpoint of spinal health, they are preferable. That doesn't mean that they are/aren't preferable from an overall standpoint for any given dog or situation.
> 
> ...


Thank You, what I don't understand is why the folks that can use a prong properly get all riled up? If you know what your doing fine! JQP doesn't know what he's doing!

I was that guy Seltzer was talking about, I've learned. I don't know that I will ever use a prong again but I do know that I will never use it like I did in the pass! 

Learning and growing wiser is suppose to be the point is it not?


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Thank You, what I don't understand is why the folks that can use a prong properly get all riled up? If you know what your doing fine! JQP doesn't know what he's doing!
> 
> I was that guy Seltzer was talking about, I've learned. I don't know that I will ever use a prong again but I do know that I will never use it like I did in the pass!
> 
> Learning and growing wiser is suppose to be the point is it not?


This is pretty much what I was going to say. Over here (Ireland) prong collars are rare, so rare I've only every seen one in my life, but we manage to train and walk our dogs without them. Admittedly I had a poor view of them (before spending time on American sites), but now understand through reading other's experiences that they can and are an effective tool *in the right hands and used correctly*. 
The problem is that anyone can buy them, and slap one on a dog and start yanking away with no sense of timing or understanding of dog behaviour.
Regarding the article, I don't find it a particularly good article, the 'doc' in question is not a vet and is just a Chiropractor with an opinion who happens to write books. His opinion carries no more weight than anyone else on this forum, so I'm not sure why anyone would use him as a source of information. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence and ANY collar in the wrong hands can be detrimental for a dog. I've seen haltis poo-pooed repeatedly on this forum, but here in Europe we use them a lot -without damaging our dog's necks. Again, like with a prong, one does not slap it on a dog and expect results, but you train your dog to wear one and control your dog thus. My own dog, approaching two, a fully intact male, usually wears a running-line harness (mid-back connection) or a flat collar these days as I've trained him not to pull at all. 
I don't see why this issue should divide people so much, a little tolerance and a little reading and understanding of positions might be far more useful.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Nice post Chris.

It always makes me shake my head when people talk about not needing a prong collar because there are more effective ways to train, if you implement those other training techniques properly. Then they go on about improper prong collar use and state that corrections are harsh and build tolerance.

Let's compare apples to apples, good training to good training, or bad to bad.


Effective training with any tool will create a situation where the dog does not pull on the collar.

Ineffective training with any tool will create a situation where the dog will still pull and you are using the collar to manage bad behavior.

According to this health professional, the dog pulling against the prong creates the least physical damage to the dog. Pulling against a flat collar creates the most.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Arlene/Archer said:


> This is pretty much what I was going to say. Over here (Ireland) prong collars are rare, so rare I've only every seen one in my life, but we manage to train and walk our dogs without them. Admittedly I had a poor view of them (before spending time on American sites), but now understand through reading other's experiences that they can and are an effective tool *in the right hands and used correctly*.
> The problem is that anyone can buy them, and slap one on a dog and start yanking away with no sense of timing or understanding of dog behaviour.
> Regarding the article, I don't find it a particularly good article, the 'doc' in question is not a vet and is just a Chiropractor with an opinion who happens to write books. His opinion carries no more weight than anyone else on this forum, so I'm not sure why anyone would use him as a source of information. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence and ANY collar in the wrong hands can be detrimental for a dog. I've seen haltis poo-pooed repeatedly on this forum, but here in Europe we use them a lot -without damaging our dog's necks. Again, like with a prong, one does not slap it on a dog and expect results, but you train your dog to wear one and control your dog thus. My own dog, approaching two, a fully intact male, usually wears a running-line harness (mid-back connection) or a flat collar these days as I've trained him not to pull at all.
> I don't see why this issue should divide people so much, a little tolerance and a little reading and understanding of positions might be far more useful.





David Winners said:


> Nice post Chris.
> 
> It always makes me shake my head when people talk about not needing a prong collar because there are more effective ways to train, if you implement those other training techniques properly. Then they go on about improper prong collar use and state that corrections are harsh and build tolerance.
> 
> ...


Well put!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chris Wild said:


> Why does everything have to turn into a prong (or e-collar) debate?
> 
> I think the basis of the article is pretty simple... yanking on the dog's neck/head is bad. Period. Some pieces of equipment are going to naturally, due to the way they work, lessen the frequency or severity of the yanking, pulling or lunging that occurs. Therefore, from the standpoint of spinal health, they are preferable. That doesn't mean that they are/aren't preferable from an overall standpoint for any given dog or situation.
> 
> ...


Yet again..well put,thank you!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> The vast majority of people out there yanking and cranking on prong collars are not going for IPO, they do not have hard, high drive, high energy or defiant dogs. They have ordinary dogs, they have labs and goldens and showline GSDs all on prong collars.


If we're going by anecdotal evidence, actually the vast majority of "pet" people I see using a prong are doing it wrong. They are fitted WAY too loose (so often not as effective or not effective at all) and the owners are NOT correcting the dog, just allowing the dog to pull into the prong collar thinking that the tool is what corrects the dog.

I hate when people think there is some sliding scale of training devices, like a prong is a "last resort" but they think they are doing the dog a favor by not fitting it or using it properly. *IF* the prong is an appropriate tool for the dog, then by all means use it properly! If you don't want to use it properly, then please don't.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Liesje said:


> If we're going by anecdotal evidence, actually the vast majority of "pet" people I see using a prong are doing it wrong. They are fitted WAY too loose (so often not as effective or not effective at all) and the owners are NOT correcting the dog, just allowing the dog to pull into the prong collar thinking that the tool is what corrects the dog.
> 
> I hate when people think there is some sliding scale of training devices, like a prong is a "last resort" but they think they are doing the dog a favor by not fitting it or using it properly. *IF* the prong is an appropriate tool for the dog, then by all means use it properly! If you don't want to use it properly, then please don't.


Bam!! And there you go, case in point! New user dog with a problem...throw a prong on the puppy! Nothing about understanding the dog or "The Proper Use Of The Tool!" ill informed prong users that's the problem!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/413586-defiant-dog.html


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> what I don't understand is why the folks that can use a prong properly get all riled up?


 I guess some just get tired of the hatred, belittling and snide comments from some people.. After a while it really does get old.. :help: But your right it really shouldn't matter.. Especially since someone was trying to point out the good in a training tool...

The prong collar has helped 1000's of dog owners over the years and has saved 1000's more from being euthanized.. That I know to be true..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No kidding Leesa, not to mention....come into my house and pick up a prong collar...you will have three dogs hopping around excitedly read to go out jogging/biking/training/whatever!! They know it means FUN stuff ahead.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liesje said:


> No kidding Leesa, not to mention....come into my house and pick up a prong collar...you will have three dogs hopping around excitedly read to go out jogging/biking/training/whatever!! They know it means FUN stuff ahead.


Of course if you use a choke chain, and you pick up a choke chain at home, the dogs are hopping around excitedly too. They know that fun stuff is ahead. 

I pick up Babsy's flat collar and her tags rattle and she gets so excited. It doesn't mean that the flat collar is less likely or more likely to injure her. It doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems. It only means that she gets to go with me, and that makes her excited.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Bam!! And there you go, case in point! New user dog with a problem...throw a prong on the puppy! Nothing about understanding the dog or "The Proper Use Of The Tool!" ill informed prong users that's the problem!
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/413586-defiant-dog.html


What about ill informed flat collar users, or Halti, or harness, or gentle leader.

The guy was making the point about damage from different devices. Not about training or how good or bad the handler was.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But look at the sample he is working with. How many people will take their dog to a chiropractor? Probably people with plenty of money, and maybe people who are more likely to use the prong collar properly -- maybe. 

So the results are, dogs pull less on prong collars. That's it. There are those that will see that as a license to use as much force as they want because it is safer than a flat collar, and I can yank my dog to kingdom come with a flat collar and it doesn't even phase him. 

The people who use martingales must have the best record with neck/back injuries because they haven't even gotten a mention from the good chiro. So they must not have caused any problems for their pooches.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

:headbang: 

You'd be surprised at how many people take their dogs to the chiro vets... because they care about the dogs well being! And it's not a matter of it being people with plenty of money.. Agility dogs, herding dogs, shutzhund dogs, working dogs and your plain ol pet dogs..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

G-burg said:


> :headbang:
> 
> You'd be surprised at how many people take their dogs to the chiro vets... because they care about the dogs well being! And it's not a matter of it being people with plenty of money.. Agility dogs, herding dogs, shutzhund dogs, working dogs and your plain ol pet dogs..


I've never been to a chiropractor and neither have my dogs. I suppose I don't care about them. 

Actually, before today, I have only heard of one person who took their dog to the chiropractor. Her ASL friends were telling her that her GSL dog was terribly roached, so she took the dog back to the breeder to ask her opinion. The breeder told her the dog has a UTI, take her to the vet. LOL. She took the dog to the vet, who diagnosed her with a UTI, she then took her to a chiropractor before treating the UTI! That's it, the only experience I have with people taking their dogs to a chiropractor.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jack's Dad said:


> What about ill informed flat collar users, or Halti, or harness, or gentle leader.
> 
> The guy was making the point about damage from different devices. Not about training or how good or bad the handler was.


Any tool improperly used...can be abused!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Well Selzer, maybe you should try it.. You'd be surprised at how out of alignment they may be... From just doing everyday normal stuff and from any type of training..


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

G-burg said:


> The prong collar has helped 1000's of dog owners over the years and has saved 1000's more from being euthanized.. That I know to be true..


YES!!! 

My 75 year old 100# mother uses a prong on their 75# dog. She has balance issues so can not risk him lunging forward and taking her off of her feet. Plus, she just isn't that strong anymore. She just wants to be able to get some exercise and take the dog with her. The prong works. Guess I could tell her that she doesn't deserve to own a dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Leesa, your wasting your breath.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> I've never been to a chiropractor and neither have my dogs. I suppose I don't care about them.
> 
> Actually, before today, I have only heard of one person who took their dog to the chiropractor. Her ASL friends were telling her that her GSL dog was terribly roached, so she took the dog back to the breeder to ask her opinion. The breeder told her the dog has a UTI, take her to the vet. LOL. She took the dog to the vet, who diagnosed her with a UTI, she then took her to a chiropractor before treating the UTI! That's it, the only experience I have with people taking their dogs to a chiropractor.


One trainer I work with has a chiro come to her training barn once a month for a clinic...the spots are filled every single time/though the clients have x-rays previously for better information on the dog. 
Chiro for working dogs(or competitive obedience) is a routine for many handlers.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lhczth said:


> YES!!!
> 
> My 75 year old 100# mother uses a prong on their 75# dog. She has balance issues so can not risk him lunging forward and taking her off of her feet. Plus, she just isn't that strong anymore. She just wants to be able to get some exercise and take the dog with her. The prong works. Guess I could tell her that she doesn't deserve to own a dog.


I have Scleroderma on my right side so my right arm is weak and it cannot walk a dog, not even a chihuahua. I can't risk injury to my left arm because I highly depend on it. I walk both dogs with a prong collar, Sin wouldn't pull me if I didn't have the prong on but I won't take the chance. Draco on the other hand would love to drag me everywhere and he has a ridiculous amount of strength but he's amazing on the prong. My dogs are treated like royalty, spoiled rotten with wonderful lives full of love. I do deserve to own a dog and so does your mother.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You don't have to justify why you're using a prong collar. There's nothing wrong with them, they aren't cruel or abusive, and you shouldn't feel bad for using one. 

If someone does abuse their dog with one, I'm going to bet money that this has nothing to do with the collar, and they're being impatient and unfair to their dog even when the collar is off. MY dog said he'd rather have a pop on the prong than a kick in the ribs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Most people I know with dogs that are training and competing (not just trained up to earn a title and then don) regularly take their dogs to chiro (I'm talking people I know in flyball, agility, and SchH) and also will do consults with a vet that's familiar with sports, just to get a full once-over and make sure nothing is going on. I've also x-rayed my dog's spine in addition to hips and elbows, for a baseline in case I ever suspect injury.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Most people I know with dogs that are training and competing (not just trained up to earn a title and then don) regularly take their dogs to chiro (I'm talking people I know in flyball, agility, and SchH) and also will do consults with a vet that's familiar with sports, just to get a full once-over and make sure nothing is going on. I've also x-rayed my dog's spine in addition to hips and elbows, for a baseline in case I ever suspect injury.


I xrayed Frag's back along with his hips a few years ago, for unrelated reasons, but this was pointed out by a friend after and it's a great point. I might do the same with Recon after he turns two - just like bloodwork, for a baseline.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

So does a collar exist which doesn't cause any problems according to the article posted?

I don't think the article is factual.

Seems like a good way to get people to bring there dogs in for more costly treatment.

Does it mention how many dogs were used to research the findings?

I think a regular collar(1"-2") tightly under the dogs chin is going to cause minimum damage to the dog. A poorly fitted collar can possibly do damage as can an inexperienced dog handler yanking and getting frustrated every day on walks.


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## Okin (Feb 27, 2013)

MadLab said:


> So does a collar exist which doesn't cause any problems according to the article posted?
> 
> I don't think the article is factual.
> 
> ...


No collar will cause problems if a dog doesn't ever pull on it, unless it is put on incorrectly. The article states that harnesses and prong collars do the least damage because of the design. Anything restraining a dog is going to potentially do damage if it is being pulled against hard enough.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

_All_ collars are bad  this is the new training challenge, to train your dog without using one.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I find the general public generally doesn't have a clue how to use or fit a prong collar correctly. Now that I think about it, I can't even recall the last time I saw one fitted correctly on a dog. I'm talking just out and about on walks or in public.

Most people have them loose and very low on the dog's neck. The dog's also walking about 3 feet in front of them while they're being dragged. Makes you wonder why they even bother putting one on their dog to begin with.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'll admit that I'm terrible with comparisons, in general. I always grind my teeth when someone says I shouldn't own/use something because someone else can't manage to do it properly. Cars, guns, knives, toothpicks, you name it - someone can't figure it out. Why oh why should their ineptness reflect on me?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I find the general public generally doesn't have a clue how to use or fit a prong collar correctly. Now that I think about it, I can't even recall the last time I saw one fitted correctly on a dog. I'm talking just out and about on walks or in public.
> 
> Most people have them loose and very low on the dog's neck. The dog's also walking about 3 feet in front of them while they're being dragged. Makes you wonder why they even bother putting one on their dog to begin with.


I see pictures on FB all the time of dogs like this. People can bring dogs into the nursery and I often see them with prongs down around their shoulders, and they're big dogs like rotts who just continue to pull towards whatever they want, and then the person sees me looking at the prong and says "Those things don't work obviously".


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

MadLab said:


> So does a collar exist which doesn't cause any problems according to the article posted?
> 
> I don't think the article is factual.
> 
> ...


I think the article is a little bit misguided in the idea that the COLLAR is causing the problems. It seems to me that the article was written with the idea in mind that all of these dogs pull excessively. There can't be any strain and pressure unless that force is being applied. 


I see it all the time at my store. Dogs flying around like kites at the end of their leashes. Doesn't matter what's on them...head collar, flat collar, choke collar, badly-fitted prong collar, front-latch harness...they're towing and their owners are like trailers, just along for the ride. People buy the harness because they're afraid of the dog "choking itself" and then get huffy in a few months when the dog takes off after a rabbit and drags their kid a half mile. They wonder if there's anything that will help with the pulling, and then look at me like I'm speaking Portuguese when I recommend working with their trainer on loose-leash walking (it astounds me how many trainers in my area DON'T have this as part of their basic obedience curriculum). They look at me like I'm a monster when I recommend the prong, explain its idea and function, and how to properly fit it. Those who bite that bullet regarding how it looks and what they've heard come back and tell me how much better their dog is because of it. And those who have been weaned off of it and walk nicely on leash...their owners are over the moon.

Training and education on the part of the owner is the safest collar your dog can wear. Then, the prong


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Selzer, that's just your opinion, to make you feel better and superior - prongs are proven to be safe and effective.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> _All_ collars are bad  this is the new training challenge, to train your dog without using one.


Challenge accepted


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Right on Baillif! I knew you wouldn't let me down. You rock


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

I use a prong collar in public not because my dog is an out-of-control hooligan, but because he and I are close in weight, and he is way stronger. I am always worried if he had a lapse in behavior that he could surprise me and pull away, or I could fall and accidently drop the leash. Then he might get hit by a car. So with the collar if he pulls it corrects him and then I don't worry as much. I have worked with his trainers on how to fit and use it, and which kind to buy.

I am pretty horrified that I have been using it without a backup collar. I will start doing that immediately.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lark said:


> I use a prong collar in public not because my dog is an out-of-control hooligan, but because he and I are close in weight, and he is way stronger. I am always worried if he had a lapse in behavior that he could surprise me and pull away, or I could fall and accidently drop the leash. Then he might get hit by a car. So with the collar if he pulls it corrects him and then I don't worry as much. I have worked with his trainers on how to fit and use it, and which kind to buy.
> 
> I am pretty horrified that I have been using it without a backup collar. I will start doing that immediately.


I posted a link on the second page I think, of a proper use of a prong.

D ring back up is fine but if your using a prong and your still worried you need to find a new trainer! Crap happens but in general if your dog ditched his collar, you should be able to tell him "STAY" if he won't stay then you have more work to do and your using the prong to mask the problem.

Generally if dogs are well trained they don't lapse and forget their training...they fall back on their training, if he knows he's to be close to you on a walk, then that's where he will be!

I use a leash on my dogs around here not because I need them but because it makes the public feel more comfortable around them. JQP doesn't know by sight that an unleashed dog is under control! I don't want to go around scaring the crap out of people with unleashed dogs! 

If "I" am having issues with my dog "I" don't blame the dog, "I" try and figure out what "I'm" doing wrong!


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

Chip18 - you nailed it. His recall is not stellar. One of his trainers is supposed to be a really great trainer, and he said for some reason he cannot get him to reliably recall either. He comes when he feels like it. It has gotten better, but still not to the point where I feel he should be at his age. Unfortunately I am not the best dog trainer, so I am a bit lost. Other than recall he does so well, and has great manners. He doesn't pull on his leash, and I can take him around other dogs and people and he behaves. But obviously recall is one of the most important commands.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i do feel a lot of pet people use the prong as a crutch/excuse. the prong is a training tool and should be used to train the dog and once its trained, why would you need to use it for daily walks or running errands or to go to the park??? you cant possibly think that a high and tight prong is more comfortable for the dog than a regular flat collar or even a choke chain that hangs loose around the dogs neck. no matter what the dog wears if it doesnt pull then there isnt any damage to any part of the dogs body. a few on here say that their dog is well trained and walks well on leash but they have the prong on just in case. lol that means your dog isnt well trained! thats just making excuses to stop training.

imo when you start training any dog, the goal is to get it to listen to any command in any situation. you should be able to walk your dog around the neighborhood without any collar or leash. if you need a collar/leash to walk the dog then you should continue training instead of putting the prong on the dog every time you go on a walk. imo if anyone needs a prong to take their dog outside then that dog isnt even close to trained.

if a dog is training/working then the prong is a great tool for control but in every day life a dog shouldnt need a prong collar. heck a well trained dog shouldnt need a collar at all.

edit- i'd also like to add that according to this article, schutzhund dogs must have some of the worst spines because they are taught to lunge and pull.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

75 pound bitch, and 45 pound girl. Flat collar. Loose leash. Chiropractor not necessary. 



If someone truly cannot control a dog without a prong collar, than they shouldn't have the dog, because, what are you going to do if the collar fails? What are you going to do if that dog is running naked toward another dog? What is your 100# mother going to do if she slips and the leash comes out of her hand? 

The prong collar _should_ _be_ a training tool. It should not be relied upon because the dog is stronger than you are and can pull you down.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Sorry. 

There are a lot of sport situations where I want my dogs to be drivey and ready to go and rely on a prong collar to keep them where they're at and me standing. 

Could I stop them from being amped up and pulling on the leash verbally? Yes. But that would ruin the drive that they have that I WANT. It would demotivate them completely. 

Enter prong.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> Sorry.
> 
> There are a lot of sport situations where I want my dogs to be drivey and ready to go and rely on a prong collar to keep them where they're at and me standing.
> 
> ...


They are banning them in sporting events. 

In AKC you can't use them, which is fine. The obedience people that want their dog hyped up use a toy or a tug. There are more ways to skin a cat.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> They are banning them in sporting events.
> 
> In AKC you can't use them, which is fine. The obedience people that want their dog hyped up use a toy or a tug. There are more ways to skin a cat.


I am not talking about getting them hyped up. I'm talking about controlling them once they are without shutting them down.

I don't care what's banning them, it doesn't change the fact that there are reasons why you wouldn't be able to control your dog that they work well for. I sure won't be participating anywhere that I can't use it as I see fit, but that doesn't effect our sports at all.

Obedience pep is NOTHING like dock diving or lure coursing pep. We're talking apples and oranges.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Selzer, it's really not surprising that you, once again, bring up the fact that your bitch can be walked by a child...it's like your quintessential "test" to prove that your dogs are breed worthy or well trained or something...you do realize that every time you use that as your go-to example of breed worthy/solid/well trained dogs, you are showing everyone how incredibly low your bar is for the breed and standard?? It's ludicrous. 

Now...you show me a "before" of an insane, high drive, out of control, leash yanking, 4 year old lab...pitbull...rottie...jack russel (lol)...and then an "after," with your training being proven on multiple animals, of all higher energy/drive/threshold/hardness/defense, then we'll talk. I'm sorry, but there are way more here that think your examples and comparisons are just plain silly than there are that don't. Sometimes you have to take a step back and think..."Am I wrong/crazy or is EVERYONE else"....ya know, everyone that has loads of dogs under their belts and story after story of success?

Prongs are banned in certain European countries and good ol' Australia (is there anything that isn't banned there??) and they aren't allowed on the premise of the WUSVs (or maybe that's just ecollars). They won't ever be banned in the US. 

I am so against legislation based on fear mongering and an ill-informed/uneducated populace. It's just pathetic that we need a "higher power" to create legislation because we let the actions of a minority create fear in the majority...but now we're really drifting here.

PS: You have NO IDEA if your dog's spine is messed up or needs an adjustment....as you stated...you don't go to a chiropractor. That's the thing about dogs, they can't tell us if something is nagging them. It usually takes incredible pain for them to display symptoms.

ETA: I don't care how you train your dogs...it seems to be working for you. As I've said many times, it's the way you insinuate, judge, make extreme claims, and demean/belittle those that "aren't good enough to own a dog," that gets people defensive with you. You have not proven your "methods" on intense dogs...that's just the truth. Can't blame people for questioning someone who claims they can run 30 miles, when they've only run 5.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DJEtzel said:


> I am not talking about getting them hyped up. I'm talking about controlling them once they are without shutting them down.
> 
> I don't care what's banning them, it doesn't change the fact that there are reasons why you wouldn't be able to control your dog that they work well for. I sure won't be participating anywhere that I can't use it as I see fit, but that doesn't effect our sports at all.
> 
> Obedience pep is NOTHING like dock diving or lure coursing pep. We're talking apples and oranges.


I don't know, I think the border collie hag could give you a run for your money with her nutty pooch. Some obedience people are pretty intense, LOL!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Sorry.
> 
> There are a lot of sport situations where I want my dogs to be drivey and ready to go and rely on a prong collar to keep them where they're at and me standing.
> 
> ...


in the sport world, a prong just allows people who cant handle their dog to compete in that sport. if you want to encourage pulling the dog should be on an agitation collar or harness but like you said, your dog would pull you flat on your face. 

btw why cant your dog be drivey and ready to go without pulling to the end of the leash? last i checked, schutzhund trails are off leash. those dogs are definitely in drive and ready to go without having to pull.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I just wonder how many dogs have damaged their owners shoulders while out for a leisurely stroll. 

The best I heard was a lady being dragged out the door before she put her shoes on. The dog a cz shepherd cross doberman used to pull bike racks or anything it was tethered to when it seen another dog.

It also hated men in beards and uniform and would jump through windows to get to them and rip their sleeves or trousers off.

Great guard dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> Selzer, it's really not surprising that you, once again, bring up the fact that your bitch can be walked by a child...it's like your quintessential "test" to prove that your dogs are breed worthy or well trained or something...you do realize that every time you use that as your go-to example of breed worthy/solid/well trained dogs, you are showing everyone how incredibly low your bar is for the breed and standard?? It's ludicrous.
> 
> Now...you show me a "before" of an insane, high drive, out of control, leash yanking, 4 year old lab...pitbull...rottie...jack russel (lol)...and then an "after," with your training being proven on multiple animals, of all higher energy/drive/threshold/hardness/defense, then we'll talk. I'm sorry, but there are way more here that think your examples and comparisons are just plain silly than there are that don't. Sometimes you have to take a step back and think..."Am I wrong/crazy or is EVERYONE else"....ya know, everyone that has loads of dogs under their belts and story after story of success?
> 
> ...


Look, I am not coming here to sell puppies. Sorry to disappoint you. Most of my dogs, I do not breed. It is my business whether or not I think they are breed worthy and it has nothing to do with this discussion. 

Look, people live for 70+ years, and they walk on two feet. They are likely to need a bone crusher at some point. I was raised not to trust them. My sister goes, and she takes her kids. But I see it kind of like accupuncture or reke (however you spell that). 

The thing is, lots of us have been where you are, we have trained that way, we have used the tools. Through experience with a number of dogs, we come to a different place. Lots of us started out with choke chains and compulsion. Right now prong collars are huge like choke chains used to be. Does it make the tool the best for most situations? I don't think so. 

I have dogs that pull like freight trains. At four months old, they pulled that little kid right off her feet. I didn't use a prong collar on her. When I took her out the other day, she was fine. She's a year old now. It is not the collar that controls the dog, it is the relationship we have with the dog that controls the dog.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

boomer11 said:


> imo when you start training any dog, the goal is to get it to listen to any command in any situation. you should be able to walk your dog around the neighborhood without any collar or leash. if you need a collar/leash to walk the dog then you should continue training instead of putting the prong on the dog every time you go on a walk. imo if anyone needs a prong to take their dog outside then that dog isnt even close to trained


Didn't you make a thread recently about how your dog dragged you whining towards one of your friends and bit him in the arm or something? I remember it was something like that. Is the problem fixed now? 

And I completely disagree with you about dogs being walked without a leash or collar. I don't care how well you think your dog is trained. Unless you're in the middle of nowhere with no one else around, your dog needs to be leashed at all times in public. I can't stand when people think they can just walk their dogs around without leashes. It's just asking for trouble.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lucy Dog said:


> Didn't you make a thread recently about how your dog dragged you whining towards one of your friends and bit him in the arm or something? I remember it was something like that. Is the problem fixed now?
> 
> And I completely disagree with you about dogs being walked without a leash or collar. I don't care how well you think your dog is trained. Unless you're in the middle of nowhere with no one else around, your dog needs to be leashed at all times in public. I can't stand when people think they can just walk their dogs around without leashes. It's just asking for trouble.


I disagree. Some of our dogs can be trusted off lead, on a heel, in public. I have one, at present. I used to have another. The rest of my girls are still works in progress. 

A well-trained dog ought to be able to be walked off lead. But I usually snap the lead on when I see other people, just for their peace of mind. It doesn't have to be an accident waiting to happen.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> I'll admit that I'm terrible with comparisons, in general. I always grind my teeth when someone says I shouldn't own/use something because someone else can't manage to do it properly. Cars, guns, knives, toothpicks, you name it - someone can't figure it out. Why oh why should their ineptness reflect on me?


?? It' doesn't reflect on you!

So far the only consistent "issue" I see in any of the prong threads is the fact that a lot of skilled armatures seem to think "if I can do it...anybody can!" That's not realistic, not "everybody" can properly use a prong collar!

I can't juggle that make juggling wrong??


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> I disagree. Some of our dogs can be trusted off lead, on a heel, in public. I have one, at present. I used to have another. The rest of my girls are still works in progress.
> 
> A well-trained dog ought to be able to be walked off lead. But I usually snap the lead on when I see other people, just for their peace of mind. It doesn't have to be an accident waiting to happen.


I'm sure there are plenty that can be off leash, but that doesn't mean they should be. There's leash laws for a reason. It's a pet peeve of mine when I see people that do stuff like that. It's not often that I see people doing it, but it happens.

If I'm walking down the street and I see some guy walking his rottie off leash coming towards me, am I supposed to just assume the dog is trained and there's absolutely no chance something bad might happen? No, I'm seeing someone that thinks he's above the law walking around with a 120 pound dog with no leash attached to it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> in the sport world, a prong just allows people who cant handle their dog to compete in that sport.


What?

So Bart Bellon, Iban Balabanov, Michael Ellis and Bernard Finks are just using prong collars because they can't handle dogs?




> btw why cant your dog be drivey and ready to go without pulling to the end of the leash? last i checked, schutzhund trails are off leash. those dogs are definitely in drive and ready to go without having to pull.


Tell me how they proof that behavior without the use of aversives. Sure, they don't have the collar on when trialing, but what about the 100s of hours of training behind that finished dog.

How did you proof your dog before trialing?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i use a flat collar untill the dog is 9 months old. then
i switch to choker. when i switch to the choker the dog
knows how to heel on either side with or without a leash.

i saw a homeless man walking a Pit/Bull Dog type dog.
he a rope around his dog's neck. there was no noose.
he had the rope around the dog's neck and he was
holding both ends of the rope. the dog could have easily
backed out of the rope or pulled it out of the man's hand.
the dog was walking beside the man calmly. when the man 
stopped the dog stopped, when the man moved left the dog 
moved left. i saw this on a crowed center city street.
the dog stopped.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Didn't you make a thread recently about how your dog dragged you whining towards one of your friends and bit him in the arm or something? I remember it was something like that. Is the problem fixed now?
> 
> And I completely disagree with you about dogs being walked without a leash or collar. I don't care how well you think your dog is trained. Unless you're in the middle of nowhere with no one else around, your dog needs to be leashed at all times in public. I can't stand when people think they can just walk their dogs around without leashes. It's just asking for trouble.


yes that was me with that thread. my dog didnt drag me anywhere. he was pulling on his leash and instead of putting him in a sit,stay i allowed them to meet. he wasnt out of control. just bad judgement by me. 

i jog with my dog off leash. i walk with him around the neighborhood off leash. he does have his collar on so if i see a tense situation i can recall him and hold on to his collar. i dont think its asking for trouble. i think my dog earned the right to be off leash. if he doesnt react to dogs, cats, squirrels, skateboards, kids, etc and can recall and listen to commands at a distance why does he have to walk right by my side? he's earned the right to more freedom. imo if you have to constantly hold onto a leash and are afraid to drop it then how well trained can the dog really be?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm sure there are plenty that can be off leash, but that doesn't mean they should be. There's leash laws for a reason. It's a pet peeve of mine when I see people that do stuff like that. It's not often that I see people doing it, but it happens.
> 
> If I'm walking down the street and I see some guy walking his rottie off leash coming towards me, am I supposed to just assume the dog is trained and there's absolutely no chance something bad might happen? No, I'm seeing someone that thinks he's above the law walking around with a 120 pound dog with no leash attached to it.


We have a leash law in Ohio. But the way it is worded is that the dog needs to be leashed or under the control of a responsible people. 

From the Ohio Revised Code:
" 
(C) Except when a dog is lawfully engaged in hunting and accompanied by the owner, keeper, harborer, or handler of the dog, no owner, keeper, or harborer of any dog shall fail at any time to do either of the following: 
(1) Keep the dog physically confined or restrained upon the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer by a leash, tether, adequate fence, supervision, or secure enclosure to prevent escape; 
(2) Keep the dog under the reasonable control of some person."




Of course, Ohioans even have trouble with this.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> in the sport world, a prong just allows people who cant handle their dog to compete in that sport. if you want to encourage pulling the dog should be on an agitation collar or harness but like you said, your dog would pull you flat on your face.
> 
> btw why cant your dog be drivey and ready to go without pulling to the end of the leash? last i checked, schutzhund trails are off leash. those dogs are definitely in drive and ready to go without having to pull.



Obviously spoken by someone who has never titled a dog or any idea how to train in sport/protection.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> What?
> 
> So Bart Bellon, Iban Balabanov, Michael Ellis and Bernard Finks are just using prong collars because they can't handle dogs?
> 
> ...


no they use the collar because it gives them better control of the dog. you dont think they could do it without the use of a prong? they dont NEED the prong, it just makes life easier.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

boomer11 said:


> yes that was me with that thread. my dog didnt drag me anywhere. he was pulling on his leash and instead of putting him in a sit,stay i allowed them to meet. he wasnt out of control. just bad judgement by me.
> 
> i jog with my dog off leash. i walk with him around the neighborhood off leash. he does have his collar on so if i see a tense situation i can recall him and hold on to his collar. i dont think its asking for trouble. i think my dog earned the right to be off leash. if he doesnt react to dogs, cats, squirrels, skateboards, kids, etc and can recall and listen to commands at a distance why does he have to walk right by my side? he's earned the right to more freedom. imo if you have to constantly hold onto a leash and are afraid to drop it then how well trained can the dog really be?


Your young dog (how old is he now?) has a history of biting and you still walk around with him off leash? He's earned that right? You're absolutely asking for trouble. 

And people holding onto a dog's leash in public and the dog being trained have nothing to do with the training or lack there of. It's just basic common courtesy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> I just wonder how many dogs have damaged their owners shoulders while out for a leisurely stroll.
> 
> The best I heard was a lady being dragged out the door before she put her shoes on. The dog a cz shepherd cross doberman used to pull bike racks or anything it was tethered to when it seen another dog.
> 
> ...


Oh geezer, I was going to start with dog shouldn't bolt out the door but ..that dog owner is just a target "rich environment"....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I disagree. Some of our dogs can be trusted off lead, on a heel, in public. I have one, at present. I used to have another. The rest of my girls are still works in progress.
> 
> A well-trained dog ought to be able to be walked off lead. But I usually snap the lead on when I see other people, just for their peace of mind. It doesn't have to be an accident waiting to happen.


Ditto! Little old lady in a wheel chair could walk my Struddell (Boxer) and she never saw a prong! Nothing against a prong but my Bull?Mastiff proved to my that "I did not know how to properly use one...with my first dog!" 

He walked well off leash but "not" on leash, I was sad to say case in point for JQP!:blush:


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> We have a leash law in Ohio. But the way it is worded is that the dog needs to be leashed or under the control of a responsible people.


How many people think their dog is trained and always under control? Then when something happens, what's the first thing they say? Oh Buddy's never done that before. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen heard something like that and probably won't be my last.

And just to clarify, not talking specifically about you. Just joe public in general.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

can you walk your dogs on a farm without a leash (other animals
around), can you walk your dogs in center city without a leash,
can you walk your dogs in a large crowd without a leash, etc?
don't give me there's leash laws. i just want to know do you
have dogs that can be off leash in a lot of different situations?



Lucy Dog said:


> Didn't you make a thread recently about how your dog dragged you whining towards one of your friends and bit him in the arm or something? I remember it was something like that. Is the problem fixed now?
> 
> And I completely disagree with you about dogs being walked without a leash or collar. I don't care how well you think your dog is trained. Unless you're in the middle of nowhere with no one else around, your dog needs to be leashed at all times in public. I can't stand when people think they can just walk their dogs around without leashes. It's just asking for trouble.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Obviously spoken by someone who has never titled a dog or any idea how to train in sport/protection.


do you think if the prong was banned, people couldnt title their dogs? sure the prong makes it easier ( i use it myself) but some people make it sound like a prong is necessary.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> no they use the collar because it gives them better control of the dog. you dont think they could do it without the use of a prong? they dont NEED the prong, it just makes life easier.


How many dogs have you trained in any sport?

Weren't you just asking questions about the CGC a couple of weeks ago?

Michael Ellis' Philosophy of Dog Training - YouTube

Here's a couple questions you missed.


> Tell me how they proof that behavior without the use of aversives. Sure, they don't have the collar on when trialing, but what about the 100s of hours of training behind that finished dog.
> 
> How did you proof your dog before trialing?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> And people holding onto a dog's leash in public and the dog being trained have nothing to do with the training or lack there of. It's just basic common courtesy.


would you be more nervous of a dog with no leash walking nicely by its owners side or a dog on a leash pulling hard towards you? common courtesy is having a well behaved dog in public.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> can you walk your dogs on a farm without a leash (other animals
> around), can you walk your dogs in center city without a leash,
> can you walk your dogs in a large crowd without a leash, etc?
> don't give me there's leash laws. i just want to know do you
> have dogs that can be off leash in a lot of different situations?


Not too sure about a farm. The closest I've ever been to a farm is picking up groceries at stew leonards. 

I know I can walk around large crowds with a loose leash without having to worry about her pulling or reacting towards anything. Same goes for my 9 month old puppy who's very solid, but he's still a work in progress, as all puppies are. 

I don't see or feel the need to prove anything by removing a leash. What would be the point of that? Does it somehow prove something that no leash is attached? The dogs are still walking calmly next to me without any pulling or reacting to anything.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

boomer11 said:


> would you be more nervous of a dog with no leash walking nicely by its owners side or a dog on a leash pulling hard towards you? common courtesy is having a well behaved dog in public.


Both would make me cross the street. I'd probably give the dirty look to the person that didn't have the courtesy to attach the dog to a leash though.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> How many dogs have you trained in any sport?
> 
> Weren't you just asking questions about the CGC a couple of weeks ago?
> 
> ...


a pop of a flat collar is aversive. why does it have to be a prong? also aversive training doesnt have to be physical. it can be mental. 

you also missed a question i asked. do you think those top sport trainers can't title dogs without a prong??


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> a pop of a flat collar is aversive. why does it have to be a prong? also aversive training doesnt have to be physical. it can be mental.
> 
> you also missed a question i asked. do you think those top sport trainers can't title dogs without a prong??


I know Michael has tried. He actually explains that in the video link I posted. The only upper level IPO competitor that I know of that doesn't use training collars is Shade Whitesel.

Boomer, do you train in protection?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I also know that Bob Scott trained his SchIII dog with no corrections. I'm not saying it can't be done with the right dog. These are few and far between IMO.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

For the safety of my dogs I obey both the letter and the spirit of leash laws. In a conflict which dog gets the ding with AC, the one on leash or the one off? Law enforcement really doesn't care that you're a super special snowflake whose dog never ever makes a mistake.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

GrammaD said:


> For the safety of my dogs I obey both the letter and the spirit of leash laws. In a conflict which dog gets the ding with AC, the one on leash or the one off? Law enforcement really doesn't care that you're a super special snowflake whose dog never ever makes a mistake.


Well said. Exactly what I'm trying to say. I like the hint of sarcasm too.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> I know Michael has tried. He actually explains that in the video link I posted. The only upper level IPO competitor that I know of that doesn't use training collars is Shade Whitesel.
> 
> Boomer, do you train in protection?



There are a couple. I can't think of names off the top of my head. I don't know how successful they are with it and training for five years for an IPO 1 isn't my idea of fun. 

Boomer, you're only talking about IPO for "sport". What about all the other sports that require a LOT more control than IPO? Good luck! A pop with a flat collar? My 4.5 half month old puppy already can work through that when she's in drive. Instead of beating the dog up, I would rather use a prong and get the point across without beating the dog up.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> There are a couple. I can't think of names off the top of my head. I don't know how successful they are with it and training for five years for an IPO 1 isn't my idea of fun.
> 
> Boomer, you're only talking about IPO for "sport". What about all the other sports that require a LOT more control than IPO? Good luck! A pop with a flat collar? My 4.5 half month old puppy already can work through that when she's in drive. Instead of beating the dog up, I would rather use a prong and get the point across without beating the dog up.


I think it's usually more of an experiment to see if they can do it than anything.

Imagine training KNPV with just a flat collar LOL


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I also know that Bob Scott trained his SchIII dog with no corrections. I'm not saying it can't be done with the right dog. These are few and far between IMO.


>>"With the right dog."

That seems to be the common trend in higher levels competing without compulsion/correction collars. They have 1 (sometimes 2) that they are successfully competing with. Mario Verslype is also a top competitor that has one dog he went all the way with (although he has contracts with ecollar adverts and I've seen video of him "correcting" with his foot....). Shade has that one black GSD she took pretty high. It also seems to take a lot longer to get the results. Not saying that's good or bad, just is what it is. Some say faster is worse.....insinuating rushed, abusive, fearful, lazy, sloppiness....that's where a lot disagree and get defensive.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I also know that Bob Scott trained his SchIII dog with no corrections. I'm not saying it can't be done with the right dog. These are few and far between IMO.


i'm not talking about no corrections. im talking about this need to have a prong. if the prong collar is banned, you're basically saying titled dogs will be few and far? 

i just started bite work. i use an agitation collar. i also use a prong collar. it makes things easier but schutzhund is a routine. im not saying that some dogs dont need to be made to out but if your dog doesnt do something right you can just train some more until the dog gets it right. its not out in the real world where the dog HAS to out immediately when asked. the prong has its place but it isnt an absolute must in the sport world like some people make it sound.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> *I think it's usually more of an experiment to see if they can do it than anything.*
> 
> Imagine training KNPV with just a flat collar LOL


Yeah, that's what I think too. I know one of the trainers listed went through several dogs before choosing the one that went all the way with. Now they are selling seminar tickets for upwards of $1000 a piece....always follow the money. lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> I think it's usually more of an experiment to see if they can do it than anything.
> 
> Imagine training KNPV with just a flat collar LOL



I agree with the experiment thought. 

Imagine any sport where real control is needed haha. SDA, PSA... The type of dog that's required to make it through some of those sports is not going to be fun on a flat collar. I'm not about beating a dog up. I want to send clear messages the first time and not bang, bang, bang the dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

All I know is I have a ton of different collars that I use for various reasons. Stupid people should be banned, not tools.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Yeah, that's what I think too. I know one of the trainers listed went through several dogs before choosing the one that went all the way with. Now they are selling seminar tickets for upwards of $1000 a piece....always follow the money. lol


I was trying to remember Mario. Thanks!

I'm sure that any dog being trained PP IPO is going to be one of many tested, and I bet there is no civil in that dog at all. JMHO


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I agree with the experiment thought.
> 
> Imagine any sport where real control is needed haha. SDA, PSA... The type of dog that's required to make it through some of those sports is not going to be fun on a flat collar. I'm not about beating a dog up. I want to send clear messages the first time and not bang, bang, bang the dog.


I know what it's like to train green dogs on odor with a flat collar. A couple of hours of that will tear you up, and that's just ball work. I had to switch arms when handling to give my rotator cuffs a break. 

Corrections on a flat collar aren't something I really do. Maybe in a special situation, but not as a training tool. I agree with the "beat the dog up" comment totally. Imagine the bone jarring corrections you would need on some dogs with just a flat.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> All I know is I have a ton of different collars that I use for various reasons. Stupid people should be banned, not tools.


i agree with that. i'd rather use an ecollar over a prong anyways. much easier on the dogs neck.

i always thought the 127 levels on the dogtra was just going way overboard until i worked my dog. i've seen his neck twitch from a stim and he doesnt break his focus one bit.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> i agree with that. i'd rather use an ecollar over a prong anyways. much easier on the dogs neck.
> 
> i always thought the 127 levels on the dogtra was just going way overboard until i worked my dog. i've seen his neck twitch from a stim and he doesnt break his focus one bit.


Why are you using the prong then?

Why use the e-collar or prong if you can do it on a flat collar? I mean those pops on a flat collar are aversive, right?

David Winners


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I was trying to remember Mario. Thanks!
> 
> I'm sure that any dog being trained PP IPO is going to be one of many tested, and I bet there is no civil in that dog at all. JMHO


The thing is, *some of these trainers finally find 1 dog they have great success with. Then the method/theory/tool is labeled, packaged, and sold to 1000's with the promise of "see...it worked for me...on this hard, working, dog. It will and should work on any dog." This is then used as a segway into the "you don't really need prongs/ecollars etc...see this trainer or this trainer that was able to compete at high levels with no prong/ecollar??!!" When in reality, that trainer had to go through many dogs to get one the methods worked on, the trainer is very, VERY, experienced in the working dog world, etc...there are so many variables that just don't apply to most pet homes...and yet the idea is sold as a "one size fits all." When in reality there is no "one size fits all." 

Not every dog can be taught only with clickers and treats to be reliable...and not every dog needs a prong. However, the more options that are taken away, the more dogs that are shoved into the "one size fits all" mold, the more problems that are going to be created, or not solved and given up on. 

Or we'll just have dogs bred that only military/police personnel can own...the rest of us will just have to have watered down, only needs the verbal correction, dogs. OR we'll be like Australia and the few working dog clubs around are super hard to get into and training happens behind 20 foot walls. But, now I'm just being dramatic.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Why are you using the prong then?
> 
> Why use the e-collar or prong if you can do it on a flat collar? I mean those pops on a flat collar are aversive, right?
> 
> David Winners


the same reason micheal ellis etc use those tools. its easier. why take the hard route? 

i like how you completely miss the point.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> the same reason micheal ellis etc use those tools. its easier. why take the hard route?
> 
> i like how you completely miss the point.


Did you watch the video?

It's not just because it's easier. It's because stress has to be introduced to the dog. It's because at some point in training, a competing motivator is going to be worth more than your reward. It's because if you don't ever correct the dog during training and you have to eventually, it may go very wrong.

I understand your point. I was asking questions so you would have to think about your answers.

Good luck with your dog. It will be interesting to have this same conversation with you after you have some experience.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> The thing is, *some of these trainers finally find 1 dog they have great success with. Then the method/theory/tool is labeled, packaged, and sold to 1000's with the promise of "see...it worked for me...on this hard, working, dog. It will and should work on any dog." This is then used as a segway into the "you don't really need prongs/ecollars etc...see this trainer or this trainer that was able to compete at high levels with no prong/ecollar??!!" When in reality, that trainer had to go through many dogs to get one the methods worked on, the trainer is very, VERY, experienced in the working dog world, etc...there are so many variables that just don't apply to most pet homes...and yet the idea is sold as a "one size fits all." When in reality there is no "one size fits all."
> 
> Not every dog can be taught only with clickers and treats to be reliable...and not every dog needs a prong. However, the more options that are taken away, the more dogs that are shoved into the "one size fits all" mold, the more problems that are going to be created, or not solved and given up on.
> 
> Or we'll just have dogs bred that only military/police personnel can own...the rest of us will just have to have watered down, only needs the verbal correction, dogs. OR we'll be like Australia and the few working dog clubs around are super hard to get into and training happens behind 20 foot walls. But, now I'm just being dramatic.


They make their money though.

There is a lot to be learned from the successful PP trainers. They have to think really outside the box to get results, and their hard work is worth looking at. I'm all about different tools in the box.


I hope it doesn't get to the same level of government control is in some European countries. There are places the police can't use prongs in training. They really struggle to get dogs good enough to do the job. It's sad.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> They make their money though.
> 
> *There is a lot to be learned from the successful PP trainers. They have to think really outside the box to get results, and their hard work is worth looking at. I'm all about different tools in the box.*
> 
> ...


I read up on a lot of the PP trainers. Balance, balance, balance.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> It's not just because it's easier. It's because stress has to be introduced to the dog. It's because at some point in training, a competing motivator is going to be worth more than your reward. It's because if you don't ever correct the dog during training and you have to eventually, it may go very wrong.


you are talking about the real world though, not the sport world. if your dog doesnt out, what can go very wrong? you wont get your title? i understand the dog needs to out when asked. if the prong was banned from training, i'm sure people could come up with creative ways to have a quick out on an intense dog. there just isnt a need because everyone uses prongs and ecollars.

if it was a pp dog or a police dog i'd absolutely have a prong on it. i wouldnt trust a dog to out in a real fight.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> you are talking about the real world though, not the sport world. if your dog doesnt out, what can go very wrong? you wont get your title? i understand the dog needs to out when asked. if the prong was banned from training, i'm sure people could come up with creative ways to have a quick out on an intense dog. there just isnt a need because everyone uses prongs and ecollars.
> 
> if it was a pp dog or a police dog i'd absolutely have a prong on it. i wouldnt trust a dog to out in a real fight.


The out isn't trained with a prong by a lot of competitive or PP trainers. Most street dogs have a tendency to stick, especially on a street bite. Many military dogs take their sweet time to out. Nothing like the precision in sport work. Most street dogs work in a flat collar. My MWD works in no collar or wears a flat or choke so I have a place to attach a leash if needed. It's not like I'm going to give my dog a leash correction on a street bite to get her to out. 


If you really want to know how ME uses a prong, get the focused heeling DVD.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chris Wild said:


> . And since that is going to happen, then again information on the safety of different types of equipment is important for owners to have.


Well that is my take!

As I say I was one of those that abused a pronged! For whatever reason "some" people that
can use a prong properly don't seem to believe that people that don't know what they are doing with a prong collar exist??

First time dog owners or people having problems are advised to use a prong right out the gate??? Clearly some of them have no idea what they are doing they don't understand their dog and an incorrectly used prong collar is going to solve there problem??


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

What's wrong with making life easy? Or for that matter, dog training? 

Does it really mean you're a crappy trainer/dog owner because you choose to use something, a prong collar for this thread, that has a high success rate for a lot of people.. 

Because that's what I'm hearing or we shouldn't own a dog because of the training tool we use.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

David Winners said:


> I know what it's like to train green dogs on odor with a flat collar. A couple of hours of that will tear you up, and that's just ball work. I had to switch arms when handling to give my rotator cuffs a break.
> 
> Corrections on a flat collar aren't something I really do. Maybe in a special situation, but not as a training tool. I agree with the "beat the dog up" comment totally. Imagine the bone jarring corrections you would need on some dogs with just a flat.


And that goes back to the OT. That the prong collar does the least amount of damage to the dog's neck.  

Could you imagine working detection dogs with a Halti or one of those no pull harnesses? :wild:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I've used prong collars, very safe and effective tool used properly. After reading this thread I took a look around the web and was surprised at all the misinformation out there in regards to banning them, lots of fear mongering, horrible pics of abused dogs as if that (pics) was normal for prong use, I guess I shouldn't be surprised with the number of activist type people out there that thrive on telling everyone else what they should and should not do. What do they do with dogs that won't be cotton candied along into training?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Everyone insists on reading what I wrote incorrectly. 

I never said that someone should not own a dog because they use a prong. I said, if someone truly cannot control a dog without a prong collar, they should not own the dog. 

There is a difference. 

The arguments about light or elderly women with 100 pound dogs, and the old prong collar jingle -- he gets so excited, well they are the worst arguments for prong collar usage.



G-burg said:


> What's wrong with making life easy? Or for that matter, dog training?
> 
> Does it really mean you're a crappy trainer/dog owner because you choose to use something, a prong collar for this thread, that has a high success rate for a lot of people..
> 
> Because that's what I'm hearing or we shouldn't own a dog because of the training tool we use.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

My trainer explains prongs like this,

A prong is a great tool to use when you understand how to use it and you need help,
The object of the game is to get them from prong to flat though, im still at the prong stage with one of my dogs though. I like them, they are amazing tools that have a much needed purpose. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> I have never, not once, seen any dog in a prong collar with a back up. Halti's yes. Prongs, no. I have been in a class where a fiesty nasty terrier broke the prong collar and went charging off after another dog in the class. They do break or open. But most people do not bother with a back up.


After my terrier's prong collar came apart in a busy parking lot on the way into training class, I always used a backup any time I used a prong. Although I don't use prongs anymore I still generally use a backup for almost any type of collar/harness except a flat collar (if I have a dog who would escape a flat collar, they would be using a martingale or an 'escape proof' harness).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> My trainer explains prongs like this,
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And that's the key...trainer!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chicagocanine said:


> After my terrier's prong collar came apart in a busy parking lot on the way into training class, I always used a backup any time I used a prong. Although I don't use prongs anymore I still generally use a backup for almost any type of collar/harness except a flat collar (if I have a dog who would escape a flat collar, they would be using a martingale or an 'escape proof' harness).


I never used a Martingale but I can see the value, I had Boxers that could apparently ditch a regular collar at will! And near as I could tell they were properly fitted regular collars?

But they were well trained young dogs and my backup was a "Stay" command! Still those were heart stopping moments that I would rather not have again!

So I'll most likely use and not abuse a Martingale in the future.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Chip18, all this talk of your 'prong abuse' has me wondering what exactly happened? You bring it up in all the threads, and now my curiosity has finally gotten the best of me, lol. I'm not trying to be nosey or anything, so please ignore my question if it's too much. But I'm really dying to know


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Chicagocanine said:


> After my terrier's prong collar came apart in a busy parking lot on the way into training class, I always used a backup any time I used a prong. Although I don't use prongs anymore I still generally use a backup for almost any type of collar/harness except a flat collar (if I have a dog who would escape a flat collar, they would be using a martingale or an 'escape proof' harness).


We had problems with the Petco/Petsmart variety prong collars coming apart and at fist tried using a short tether connecting the prong to the flat collar. I didn't care to have both collars on at the same time, so we looked for a better prong. We saw a few others here using the secret power ones, tried one ourselves and liked it, haven't had an issue since.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> Chip18, all this talk of your 'prong abuse' has me wondering what exactly happened? You bring it up in all the threads, and now my curiosity has finally gotten the best of me, lol. I'm not trying to be nosey or anything, so please ignore my question if it's too much. But I'm really dying to know


LOL. No not a problem, It was a BullMastiff/Pit mix I used it on (badly). 

The only thing I did right with the prong is “never” using in for anything other than walks! Everything else he was stellar and he could walk "off leash" just fine! But put the prong on him and it was "go time"!

He couldn't drag "me" down the street but I don't have photos of children or little old ladies walking him either, no one could walk him but me! 

I did it wrong (the prong) with him from day one he passed in 2010, but for “ten years” he resisted my amateurish attempts at using a prong!

When I got into Boxers I started to change approaches, my first Boxer/Pitt ,I told him one time to SIT!!! he sat then looked up at me like he was going to cry! He was a great dog and learned quickly. 

That's when I realized that if I'm not getting the results I want with my dog then the problem is with me and not the dog! Never used it again on another dog, except,,like an idiot on Gunther!!! Got a Boxer never used ( won't even think of putting a prong on her) and taught her to walk beautifully with a flat leash and collar.

Hence for me prongs are bad??

Then finally I saw this: 




That's when I realized..."Oh my god, I am an idiot!!!"

Sadly it was to late for Gunther. But I now fully understood what a moron I had been! I was JQP. I half read a book and figured, I knew what I was doing! My dog was telling me "NO YOU DON'T" but I wasn't listening! 

Now I understand, it's not the tool it's the end user! It scares the crap out of me when newbies are told to grab a prong to fix their dog! And told Nothing about it's proper use! 

Pretty much what I drew from my experience...is that “any tool improperly used can be abused!”


Hence for me a flat collar and leash for training ,and a new mind set...if I can't the job done with regular tools then ”I think ...what am I doing wrong?? Not what's wrong with this stupid dog???”

Then the pros get upset because a useful tool is being slandered and skilled armatures get bent of shape because they seem to think “if I can do it anybody can!”

Nobody every seems to mention “The proper use of a Prong collar?” It alway seems to be, Prong... Pro or Con?”

That's pretty much it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Chip18, I want the details! LOL! So, you put the prong on, and then what? He didn't pull? I'm not being a weirdo, I just want to know why you're so hard on yourself, lol. You always come into prong threads uttering doom and gloom warnings, and I'm very curious why. Details, please


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Chip18 said:


> I never used a Martingale but I can see the value, I had Boxers that could apparently ditch a regular collar at will! And near as I could tell they were properly fitted regular collars?
> 
> But they were well trained young dogs and my backup was a "Stay" command! Still those were heart stopping moments that I would rather not have again!
> 
> So I'll most likely use and not abuse a Martingale in the future.


Yeah my dog whose prong collar came apart was a foster dog at the time, in a beginner's obedience class and an impulsive terrier so we had not yet mastered the "stay" command. Luckily he actually did not notice it and I was able to grab him quickly.
I've actually only used the martingale on one dog so far, a foster Chinese Shar-Pei whose neck was seemingly the same size as his head and his wrinkles also seemed to help to push a buckle collar right off! He never actively tried to get out of the collar, it would just come off. So we switched to a fabric martingale.




Nigel said:


> We had problems with the Petco/Petsmart variety prong collars coming apart and at fist tried using a short tether connecting the prong to the flat collar. I didn't care to have both collars on at the same time, so we looked for a better prong. We saw a few others here using the secret power ones, tried one ourselves and liked it, haven't had an issue since.


The one I had that came apart, I think I got it from my trainer IIRC. It was just a regular prong collar. I ended up switching to a quick release prong collar, which I've heard some people say they had problems with coming loose but I never had the quick release come off him. I think it was because I didn't have to bend the prongs to take it on/off.
I took a short loop tab and connected one end to the buckle collar and another to the leash, as my backup. I always have a flat collar on my dogs when we're away from home in order to hold their ID tags, I am kinda paranoid about them having visible ID just in case something happened.

My terrier was too smart though, he knew the difference between wearing a prong vs no prong and even between the prong on and connected to the leash vs the prong on and not connected, and would pull whenever it wasn't in use. I eventually got rid of the prong and taught him not to pull on a flat collar by just backing up when he pulled, and only going forward when the leash was loose ("Penalty Yards" basically.)


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