# Thread for the old timers—linebreeding



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

I’ve been researching and Learning about different lines and pedigrees etc etc and I have questions about line breeding. Not looking to become a breeder or anything of that type but as far as pedigrees go, how far back does line breeding actually make a difference. Is a 5-5 really having that much influence on the dog in front of me?? How much line breeding is too much? I’ve see. Some breedings, from a big kennel with a 2-1. Seems too close to me but what do I know? Please feel free to voice opinions. Thanks!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I'll let more people post personal experiences but here's a decent article on COIs. Also I love discussing this so feel free to pm me if you want to further discuss. I'm not an old timer so don't want to derail the thread too much.









COI FAQS: Understanding the Coefficient of Inbreeding


By Carol Beuchat PhD You probably see references to the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) often, but do you understand what it means? Here are the answers to some frequently asked questions. What is...



www.instituteofcaninebiology.org













The Costs and Benefits of Inbreeding


By Carol Beuchat PhD



www.instituteofcaninebiology.org


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

a species is an isolated population because it may only reproduce unto itself. There are only so many canidae genes in total, because they all descend from the same common ancestors. Breeds are just isolated micro-populations within the species at large.

one may not "outbreed" within an isolated population, because every individual within an isolated population is already related. Therefore one may only attempt to effectively _MANAGE_ inbreeding depression, and ultimtely the only way to do that is by linebreeding.

In my experience genepools seem to be somewhat "circular." It's kind of like politics and how anyone who leans too extreme in any direction ends up "circling" all the way around to the other side without even realizing it. If that makes any sense?

Unfortunately I don't* KNOW *about linebreeding gsd specifically, because I haven't done it_ yet_. I can say for certain that early on in the breed's history (way back in the database) both inbreeding and very close linebreeding were common. The fact that breeders eventually ceased such practices leaves me no alternative but to assume that at some point doing so created serious problems. If it hadn't caused problems, they'd have had no reason to stop. Furthermore I can clearly observe examples of "introgression" in every modern gsd type, and no breeder goes to all that trouble until they need to.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think the impact of line breeding depends on knowing if the dogs being line breed on have demonstrated from their own breedings, if they tend to throw dominant genes for desirable traits. It becomes more complicated because a dog that is line bred on has been breed to different dogs and it is an educated guess as to whether the dog line bred on or the dog he/she was bred to is largely responsible for producing the desired traits. That is why many breeding are really experimental unless and until a breeder has a program to develop his own lines and doesn't just sell pups, but follows them closely or holds back entire litters to see what is produced. The vast majorty of breeders won't due this due to time and expense. That is probably why some of the early military programs (DDR and z PS) had a good sense of what they were producing because they were able to breed for prepotency due to being under thumb off communistic regimes who told you what you had to do. Another thing to consider, even though the further away a dog is generationally from the breeding pair, the less genetic influence he or she will have, back massing on dogs significantly beyond five generations can have an effect on outcome. I believe in the future it will become a moot point because advancement of knowledge and technology will remove all the guesswork. In people it has ethical implications, but not so much in dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

In case anyone here isn’t already well aware, Chip is WAY out of my league with the ddr z ps stuff, so I’ll preface in hopes everybody understands just who it is they’re talking to now. I come from a long line of byb. I’m talkin’ barefooted, bare chested, old overalls wearin’, old hank listenin’, old redman plug spittin’ _OLD TIME_ byb. And even I find it disconcerting that all modern gsd go back to the same couple/few bottlenecks anymore. But like it or not, those bottlenecks are all that define the modern gsd.
Once you get good at reading gsd peds, you can learn a lot by studying other breeds. For example, spend some time studying high performance bsd peds and you’ll find some real linebreeding. The fact that gsd are no longer linebred the way high performance bsd are linebred may suggest the modern gsd has become “overbred.” The 2019 sv bszs video below may support that hypothesis as well?




 To my eye it couldn’t be more readily apparent those dogs_ may only _be intended for use as seedstock, engineered to crossbreed x bsd dsd etc. Conformation snobs who espouse the virtues of breed purity in this day and age only unwittingly foot the bill for_ the real _breeding programs.

















Y chromosome = nuclear dna. When I study a ped, I look for repeats in the Y slots. AKA “linebreeding.”









mtdna = x chromosome (mitochondrial dna). Here I look for biological diversity. The more numerous unique mtdna ancestors the ped contains, the more biologically diverse the ped is.









if you sit down with a handful of peds and plan just a few generations out, you’ll see for yourself how quickly the stuff in the middle just gets lost forever (ancestor loss coefficient, AVK). 









the goal of the old time byb is to “target” the Y chromosome (nuclear dna), yet build the entire pedigree on some (hopefully) unique ancestor x chromosome (mtdna). I deliberately inbreed nuclear (Y) _AND_ deliberately outbreed mitochondrial (X) at the same time, in an attempt to effectively _manage_ inbreeding depression.








be forewarned: when done properly the above illustrated old time byb formula WILL require some old time byb culling. The earlier, the better. Even on christmas day. If you have to ask, you don’t want to know. Need I say this is not a recipe to turn a profit selling puppies to pet homes? Any attempt to do so will only cost you very dearly.








we’re strictly on the hunt for day 51 vpat aces here, and that requires proper weaning. Failure to wean properly puts even the best individual at a very serious disadvantage.

*note: when calculating inbreeding/ancestor loss coefficients, always leave a blank slot behind every name in the ped, regardless of how many generations you’re calculating. Failure to do so will skew your results.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I'm just saying that because the East German Army and the Czech Border Patrol owned the dogs in their breeding program and they generally were not sold as pets and had stations where they could be raised and evaluated, they had a much better opportunity to see what each breeding produced and could experiment with different breeding practices and see the results. In the working lines, the gene pool has been expanded some by breeding West German dogs to East German/Czech/Slovak dogs. The European show line dogs are essentially cookie cutter dogs. Riser used to have an article on RSV 2000 that was a study that supported that the working lines and the show lines were essentially separate breeds genetically speaking. One approach to breeding is to pair pedigrees with dogs that were producers of producers. Of course you have to define what you consider a good product. And you still have to have a good idea of what dominant genes that are desirable are likely to be thrown by each dog in a pedigree. Having said that, I have never bred a dog because I believe you would have to be independently wealthy to do it correctly and have a very knowledgeable full time staff to raise, train and evaluate the dogs. I also think it would take several generations of breeding many dogs to get a particular result that was consistent. The one breeding program that I know of that has been doing this for years is Jinopo in the Czech Republic and the owner was a breed warden at one of the z Pohranicni Straze stations and went commercial after the border patrol program shut down. But IMO, even with his knowledge base of his lines, he has morphed his lines into a more commercial dog that is different from what they were originally. I am sure that is driven by market demands and prices he can get for dogs going to families or individuals are much higher than what he could sell dog to the police and military for. The general public is looking for a more diluted version of what the early dogs from Eastern Europe were like. But there are some small scale breeders who have a good understanding of what their dogs tend to produce and produce some very nice dogs.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Yes, genetics can come through the generations. To see it, you have to know your bloodlines and personally know the dogs. A lot of breeders don't ever get beyond the second or third generation. Others just import breeding females already bred and sell the puppies. So they never know what they are producing. In order to truly know you have to keep them close by and watch or hold progeny back. 

But the answer is yes. Genetics can absolutely come down. Mannerisms, structure, looks, it can all come down through the generations.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Wouldn't all breeds benefit by the 7/8 rule? This strict requirement of 3 generations of documented purebreds is killing this, and other breeds! Sad, but true...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The other side of the coin in terms of producing some of the best police and military dogs is evident in Holland where non FCI Mal/DS X's are bred. They are not purebred and more so in the past, dogs like pitbulls, Rottweilers, Great Danes, etc. were out crossed to which added hybrid vigor and often produced some super dogs and improved or added certain traits to the gene pool.. I would say GSDs are probably out crossed to more these days, one reason being Rottweilers and Great Danes have been ruined as working dogs.. I believe it is illegal to out cross to pit bulls in Holland, but e-collars are banned and they are definitely used and not the way they are typically used in the states. Dutch trainers, IMO, tend to be a combination of the best and worst trainers, but they are training for a sport that requires minimum control and precision and use KNPV as a way to produce police dogs. They tend to focus a lot on bite work and building the dog up in that area and control later using severe compulsion.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Tikkie said:


> Yes, genetics can come through the generations. To see it, you have to know your bloodlines and personally know the dogs. A lot of breeders don't ever get beyond the second or third generation. Others just import breeding females already bred and sell the puppies. So they never know what they are producing. In order to truly know you have to keep them close by and watch or hold progeny back.
> 
> But the answer is yes. Genetics can absolutely come down. Mannerisms, structure, looks, it can all come down through the generations.


the question is how many generations does is “come down” not if it does. 3 generations, 5 etc etc.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Why would there be a limit as to how many generations genetic traits can pass down? Go to pedigree database and pull up some random dogs of any breeds and look at some of the physical traits that are passed down from many generations ago. If you have access to people who know the dogs, they can tell you about behavioral traits passed through the generations.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why would there be a limit as to how many generations genetic traits can pass down? Go to pedigree database and pull up some random dogs of any breeds and look at some of the physical traits that are passed down from many generations ago. If you have access to people who know the dogs, they can tell you about behavioral traits passed through the generations.


So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations. 


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> the question is how many generations does is “come down” not if it does. 3 generations, 5 etc etc.











Occasionally throwbacks appear to emerge randomly. If you're in the market for something specific look for what you want on both sides of a ped (behind _both_ parents). Old time byb rule #1. calculate everything in terms of 1/8's (great grands and nearer.) But an 1/8 is an 1/8 is an 1/8, and I've seen 1/16's line up where there were enough of them present. Old time byb rule #2.* BEWARE OF ANOMALIES! *I cannot strongly enough emphasize rule #2.









genes are like this many dice










purebreeding and linebreeding are about _narrowing the odds_ down to fairly predictable results









Few wolf pups are destined to become the alfa, because wolfpacks depend on _more_ betas doing _most_ of the work, in order to survive. I suspect this explains the variety of temperaments exhibited in *every* litter of domestic dogs. Like it's just "naturally programmed" into the genome or whatever. That said, not every wolfpup is destined to reach maturity, let alone reproduce. Many are simply destined to become a light lunch. Nature applies considerable selection pressure in order to ensure the future of the species.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?

Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back? Where did those ancestors get it? Did they inherit them from dogs six generations before? Ten?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> So then why haven’t all of toms progeny who had ipo handlers had the same successes? There’s obviously limitations.


 did tom come from your breeding? did you properly wean and condition tom's offspring @ weaning thru vpat? 

the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are* hypercritical* because at that age they are like little sponges

the old nature vs nurture is a fallacy. It takes both to ipo well.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?
> 
> Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back?


That is my exact question to you and the reason for this thread. He was simply mentioned as a well known dog, commonly line bred. Don’t ask me the questions I’m seeking answers to. Unless you doing so is you also admitting that you don’t know. 

Did tom 3 generations back bring more success than 5 etc etc. is there any real data? Idk. Hence this thread. Answering my questions with questions is not productive. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> did tom come from your breeding? did you properly wean and condition tom's offspring @ weaning thru vpat?
> 
> the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are* hypercritical* because at that age they are like little sponges
> 
> the old nature vs nurture is a fallacy. It takes both to ipo well.


Lol. No. Definitely not from my breeding. I don’t breed. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A lot of factors can be involved. Have you established what percentage of Tom's success was due to Tom's genetics and what was due to his training and handler? Just what traits did Tom posess thst contributed to his success? Was he prepotent for those traits? How about the females he was bred to and all of the dogs behind them? How did they factor in?
> 
> Barring a mutation, can any dog possess a trait that has not been inherited from its ancestors be that ancestor two or ten generations back? Where did those ancestors get it? Did they inherit them from dogs six generations before? Ten?


And yes, it can. Depending on recessive traits that may have never surfaced before. So are you just commenting to comment or do you have something meaningful to add to the discussion. Obviously genetics play a part. But how much is lost and what are the benefits/downfalls of linebreeding. Don’t you import dogs? Based on what??? The dog in front of you or the pedigree? That’s what Im getting at 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> That is my exact question to you and the reason for this thread. He was simply mentioned as a well known dog, commonly line bred. Don’t ask me the questions I’m seeking answers to. Unless you doing so is you also admitting that you don’t know.
> 
> Did tom 3 generations back bring more success than 5 etc etc. is there any real data? Idk. Hence this thread. Answering my questions with questions is not productive.
> 
> ...


 Sorry, misunderstood your comment. I do know.

It's is not a black and white issue. It depends on the females he was bred to as well as nature's hand. It's about recessive and dominant genes.

Not sure if it was here or another forum but I remember a black and red WGSL bred to a black that produced black puppies. Sure 'nuff, 8 generations ago there was a black dog in the sire's pedigree that silently passed through eight generations. If it's genetic, it had to come from somewhere.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

it may *EASILY* all come down to the simple matter of who reared the litters and how. If the peds checked out, and for that matter even if they didn't, odds are somebody dropped the ball from wean to evaluation

"the appx 3 weeks from wean to vpat are* hypercritical* because at that age they are like little sponges"

breeders _in the know _don't like to share that info because it creates very stiff competition in the marketplace


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> it may *EASILY* all come down to the simple matter of who reared the litters and how.


Maybe. In traits like behavior.... but not looks. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> Maybe. In traits like behavior.... but not looks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like mawl mentioned!


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sorry, misunderstood your comment. I do know.
> 
> It's is not a black and white issue. It depends on the females he was bred to as well as nature's hand. It's about recessive and dominant genes.
> 
> Not sure if it was here or another forum but I remember a black and red WGSL bred to a black that produced black puppies. Sure 'nuff, 8 generations ago there was a black dog in the sire's pedigree that silently passed through eight generations. If it's genetic, it had to come from somewhere.


Appreciate the clarification. Thread was possibly unclear 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> it may *EASILY* all come down to the simple matter of who reared the litters and how. If the peds checked out, and for that matter even if they didn't, odds are somebody dropped the ball from wean to evaluation


Also, you think 7-8 weeks of puppy raising will inhibit drives for the entire lifetime of the dog??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Let me see you raise and train those terriers to be flock guardians or to move cattle.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let me see you raise and train those terriers to be flock guardians or to move cattle.


Not the point. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let me see you raise and train those terriers to be flock guardians or to move cattle.


I don’t have cattle or terriers. I have a mixed breed and a shepherd. The question is more so I’m 3-5 on falk. How much of that actually makes it to my dog. Or if you’re 5-5 on nick how much of that dog actually has influence?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let me see you raise and train those terriers to be flock guardians or to move cattle.


Actually my mixed breed has some terrier but I can’t tell you which one due to forum rules. My question is more for those who breed so if you don’t breed I don’t think you can really weigh in. I think tikkie hit the nail on the head so to speak. 


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Also, you think 7-8 weeks of puppy raising will inhibit drives for the entire lifetime of the dog??


 there is absolutely no question about it. The first 4 weeks pups are left to their dam. After that dam is removed, human takes over for the next 3 weeks in order to *condition* the litter for a* life* of work. Failure to condition results in an underachieving litter everytime.

this is the only real world difference between import pups vs import genetics bred in usa. It's not the air, it's not the water, it's not the kibble, it's the breeders don't know how to condition their litters. Case closed. Don't blame your dog. It's not his fault.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> there is absolutely no question about it. The first 4 weeks pups are left to their dam. After that dam is removed, human takes over for the next 3 weeks in order to *condition* the litter for a* life* of work. Failure to condition results in an underachieving litter everytime.
> 
> this is the only real world difference between import pups vs import genetics bred in usa. It's not the air, it's not the water, it's not the kibble, it's the breeders don't know how to condition their litters. Case closed. Don't blame your dog. It's not his fault.


This thread has nothing to do with my dog. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> there is absolutely no question about it. The first 4 weeks pups are left to their dam. After that dam is removed, human takes over for the next 3 weeks in order to *condition* the litter for a* life* of work. Failure to condition results in an underachieving litter everytime.
> 
> this is the only real world difference between import pups vs import genetics bred in usa. It's not the air, it's not the water, it's not the kibble, it's the breeders don't know how to condition their litters. Case closed. Don't blame your dog. It's not his fault.


The question is, you thing the breeder is responsible if the dog doesn’t bring out the drive, let’s say prey of a dog 5 generations back?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmm...that black dog producing black show lines was most likely my comment since my friend owns him. That dog is from a genetically dominant black dog. Not a black dog in the woodpile. Now, whether another breed was brought in generations ago that has dominant black in there is a question I've never gotten an answer too. They did develop inside the Soviet Block but it could be a mutation.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let me see you raise and train those terriers to be flock guardians or to move cattle.


I think you'll be quite surprised to see what those little terriers are up to, if you bother looking into it



Nscullin said:


> The question is, you thing the breeder is responsible if the dog doesn’t bring out the drive, let’s say prey of a dog 5 generations back?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think you'll be quite surprised to see what those little terriers are up to, if you bother looking into it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do those pictures add any meaningful information?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

it takes a lot more than a ped to work. The conditioning that occurs between weaning and vpat is THE FOUNDATION upon which a trainer builds after vpat. You can't expect ANY pedigree to perform in such an environment unless the pup was conditioned for it very early on. Good dogs are not born, they are built. Bite and prey building should begin @ weaning.

I wish you'd just come right out and asked your question directly in the first place.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> it takes a lot more than a ped to work. The conditioning that occurs between weaning and vpat is THE FOUNDATION upon which a trainer builds after vpat. You can't expect ANY pedigree to perform in such an environment unless the pup was conditioned for it very early on. Good dogs are not born, they are built.


Ok. Your other threads were a little difficult for me to follow and your insight on this one seems to do nothing but derail so please refrain from commenting. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> it takes a lot more than a ped to work. The conditioning that occurs between weaning and vpat is THE FOUNDATION upon which a trainer builds after vpat. You can't expect ANY pedigree to perform in such an environment unless the pup was conditioned for it very early on. Good dogs are not born, they are built. Bite and prey building should begin @ weaning.
> 
> I wish you'd just come right out and asked your question directly in the first place.


“I’ve been researching and Learning about different lines and pedigrees etc etc and I have questions about line breeding. Not looking to become a breeder or anything of that type but as far as pedigrees go, how far back does line breeding actually make a difference. Is a 5-5 really having that much influence on the dog in front of me?? How much line breeding is too much? I’ve see. Some breedings, from a big kennel with a 2-1. Seems too close to me but what do I know? Please feel free to voice opinions. Thanks”

Original topic is above. 


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Original topic is above.


 right, but your_ real question_ is, why don't tom's pups ipo?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> right, but your_ real question_ is, why don't tom's pups ipo?


No lol. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> right, but your_ real question_ is, why don't tom's pups ipo?


Is English your first language? No insult intended but you seem to have difficulty understanding. 


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Slightly off topic but you’re usually pretty flexible about that.

I am interested in this linebreeding topic as well. I'm less interested in the 3,3 linebreeding verse 5,5 linebreeding. Genetics are wonky and I bet even with the best breeder, it’s still a game of chance.

What interests me is comparing 3,3 or 5,5 linebreeding with a kennel that is actively creating their own line. To the lesser extent the kennels like DDR, ie state sponsored programs working towards one goal. I am specifically referring to the kennels creating a line of their own with their own stock and who follow the progeny and chose from them for their sequential breedings.

I would imagine these kennels would be more likely to create the dog they are aiming for than linebreeding a 5,5. But what about a 3,3?
And if you are looking for a specific type of dog, are you more likely to get it with a dog linebreed on a known producer or with a kennel (which functions as stated above) whose breeding goals match yours?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Slightly off topic but you’re usually pretty flexible about that.
> 
> I am interested in this linebreeding topic as well. I'm less interested in the 3,3 linebreeding verse 5,5 linebreeding. Genetics are wonky and I bet even with the best breeder, it’s still a game of chance.
> 
> ...


Ah hah! I am usually very flexible. You’re right. Especially within reason. You get the question and that expands on my question. That is the kind of discussion I am trying to create and learn from. And you’re right. About my flexibility. It’s sort of on pause bc this is a topic which within a little wiggle room I’d like to stick to bc honestly I want to know the answer. Honestly I don’t think there is an answer. I think it’ll be largely opinionated with little facts but certain things won’t help the discussion. 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> Not the point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> ...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> I don’t have cattle or terriers. I have a mixed breed and a shepherd. The question is more so I’m 3-5 on falk. How much of that actually makes it to my dog. Or if you’re 5-5 on nick how much of that dog actually has influence?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I already answered that above.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I already answered that above.


In terms of color you did. Unless I missed something else. 


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I know that in terms of line breeding, a 5-5 or 4-4 is like moving the dog up one generation. So a 5-5 line breeding is like having that dog in the 4th line of the pedigree, or so I was told. As for how likely that dogs traits are to appear, it depends on the breeding. Obviously there is going to be some loss as the dog moves further back, which is what makes the dogs up close important. The likely hood of a particular dog's traits carrying on depends on how dominant they are. Some lines carry stronger than others, which is why some great dogs aren't great producers. I'm no expert, so I could be completely wrong. Maybe @wolfstraum will have more info.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> In terms of color you did. Unless I missed something else.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You missed a whole bunch.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Nscullin said:


> the question is how many generations does is “come down” not if it does. 3 generations, 5 etc etc.


I've noticed this in people particularly you can really see the genetic impacts of the grandparents and great grandparents. In dogs my puppy and most of his litter took after the grandparents not the parents. At the same time I am very similar to my parents but I think the genetic traits at least in people can be seen more prominently by grandparents because the parents raise them so nurture would have a higher impact. But I mean if you can just talking with your family members and seeing how much traces back to specific grandparents or is seen across the offspring can be awesome. My family on my mom's side is very large and close so you can really see how similar they are. She has 5 siblings so decent amount to compare to. 

For example I have lighter hair and blue eyes, that comes from my grandparents and great grandparents, both of my parents have darker hair and brown/hazel eyes. 

My puppy is very much like his grandfather (not sure if maternal or paternal) in terms of temperament. Very little like his parents.

Keep in mind recessive genes can go a very long time without being expressed if there is never that perfect match up.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Nscullin said:


> I don’t have cattle or terriers. I have a mixed breed and a shepherd. The question is more so I’m 3-5 on falk. How much of that actually makes it to my dog. Or if you’re 5-5 on nick how much of that dog actually has influence?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is going to be extremely variable. Because each puppy gets a separate dice roll so unless you're tracking specific dna or traits it's hard to predict what comes from what. Barring no crossovers in the DNA which muddy things up.

Dogs have 78 chromosomes. Each chromosome is passed separately and a puppy gets 39 chromosomes from each parent. 

So lets use X and Y as the easiest example









The blue X marked with A is the gene/chromosome that carries the gene you want from a dog further back in the pedigree. Both of those males are related back to a dog the blue X is from. However the puppy you produced does not have it just because of a random roll of dice that happens on every single one of the chromsomes. The one chromosome you could track easily is the Y chromosome on the male side since only males can pass it on. Any male puppy from this paring would have the orange Y chromosome from the father and grandfather.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> there is absolutely no question about it. The first 4 weeks pups are left to their dam. After that dam is removed, human takes over for the next 3 weeks in order to *condition* the litter for a* life* of work. Failure to condition results in an underachieving litter everytime.
> 
> this is the only real world difference between import pups vs import genetics bred in usa. It's not the air, it's not the water, it's not the kibble, it's the breeders don't know how to condition their litters. Case closed. Don't blame your dog. It's not his fault.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

@Nscullin 

If you like this illustration I can make more going farther into inbreeding/linebreeding pairings and such. Here is a 6 (not 78 lol) chromosome mockup for my sanity. Each circle chromosome set stands for a sperm or egg cell. The two columns illustrate the chromosomes and chromosome sets. 

3 sets with 2 chromosomes in each set. There will only be 3 chromosome, one from each set, in every egg or sperm cell. (I'm leaving out crossovers and other complications. A crossover would be if for example the white gene moved onto one of the black chromosomes.)

There could be more combinations than just the 4 sperm cells I did for the male. Just trying to give decent variety. For example you could have 1 blue chromosome and two black chromosomes. If you notice puppy #4. He carries none of the desired genes from the desired male. So it doesn't matter if you linebreed on him, the genes aren't there. Puppy #3 carries some sort of "bad" gene from the male, so if you linebreed on him you're more likely to get whatever that bad trait is.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

After all these explanations/answers what do you come away with?

I'm a Computer Scientist by trade, and I can tell you clearly that this is an NP Complete problem...which means, not solvable by a computer of any strength! Too many unpredictable variables!

It's why breeding is a respected art! It is not, and will never be clear.

But as berno said previously, many dogs need to be culled along the way...sad, but true...

Good news is lots of the culled dogs make great companions. 

So in the end, it's a good thing...

I don't want dogs that live only 7-10 yrs. I'm done with that!!! 

Just a few years back, it seems like more like 12 to 16 might have been more accurate, 7 to 10 now, no!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> After all these explanations/answers what do you come away with?
> 
> I'm a Computer Scientist by trade, and I can tell you clearly that this is an NP Complete problem...which means, not solvable by a computer of any strength! Too many unpredictable variables!
> 
> ...


There are some really awesome programs when evaluating livestock etc. It isn't 100% obviously but it does a ton of good. You can make massive improvements in production system with EBVs. Obviously we'd need to be careful to also maintain genetic diversity and avoid too many popular sires.









A better way to pick 'em: using EBVs to reduce genetic disorders in dogs


Many of the traits in dogs that we would like to select for or against are influenced by more than one gene. In fact, there can be dozens or even hundreds of genes behind a trait, each having only a...



www.instituteofcaninebiology.org





Things we could rate on:
Health (OFA scores of that dog and as many of it's progeny as possible. This part is key, you need see how the produce.)
Longevity, don't add in dogs that died of unnatural causes. (Hit by a car etc.)
Temperament. This one is more difficult, but in my head you'd use temperament testing on your litter of puppies and add their scores in. For proof it would be simple enough to video the temperament test. HIGH heritability on temperament so it would be an important one. 

Reproduction traits
Litter size: Difficulty of birth, if the mother produced enough milk or not, if she had maternal instincts or not

I think I remember seeing a website where somebody was trying to track some of that for GSDs? The important thing is getting a large data pool. 

The reason I would consider Penhipp as a breed test is apparently they have a high success rate for predicting hip dysplasia and you get to compare your dogs to the average of the breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> There are some really awesome programs when evaluating livestock etc. It isn't 100% obviously but it does a ton of good. You can make massive improvements in production system with EBVs. Obviously we'd need to be careful to also maintain genetic diversity and avoid too many popular sires.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am glad you brought up reproductive traits. There was an all breed forum discussing this and I was shocked at how many breeders do not let their dogs breed. So many use AI all of the time claiming it was for the safety of the dogs. I don't think you can breed for the whole dog if you don't know if your dog can breed naturally.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am glad you brought up reproductive traits. There was an all breed forum discussing this and I was shocked at how many breeders do not let their dogs breed. So many use AI all of the time claiming it was for the safety of the dogs. I don't think you can breed for the whole dog if you don't know if your dog can breed naturally.


I don’t mind the use of AI to an extent. I don’t think it should be used if animals refuse to breed naturally or are physically unable to though, with the exception of age. Or maybe some sort of traumatic injury after a male had been proven. 

Traits I’d be more worried about lie more in other reproductive success though. For example I’ve been hearing about show labs having one litter puppies. There could be a couple reasons contributing to that including excessive line breeding along with or due to not selecting for litter size and other good reproductive traits such as mothering ability and milk production.

Another issue is breeding dogs that have difficulty giving birth and require c-sections (not talking about bully breeds, different problem there) I mean breeds that should be able to give birth naturally with zero issues. It’s one thing if you have a breech and another if the female just isn’t up for it. Maybe a fluke singleton where there isn’t enough hormone to imitate pregnancy could be excusable.

In livestock males are actually rated on “calving ease” which is how easy their calves should be born. Things like birth weight come into play. Calving ease bulls are good choices for heifers. 

AI can result in smaller litter sizes so there is that. I think it has a place but maybe make the animals prove themself with one natural litter first.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> I don’t mind the use of AI to an extent. I don’t think it should be used if animals refuse to breed naturally or are physically unable to though, with the exception of age. Or maybe some sort of traumatic injury after a male had been proven.
> 
> Traits I’d be more worried about lie more in other reproductive success though. For example I’ve been hearing about show labs having one litter puppies. There could be a couple reasons contributing to that including excessive line breeding along with or due to not selecting for litter size and other good reproductive traits such as mothering ability and milk production.
> 
> ...


I am not against AI. I just don't think it should be a substitute for natural breeding when possible. I think the start to finish reproductive process needs to be evaluated as a package deal.

I would hate to buy a puppy from a "reputable" breeder for show and breeding only to find that the dog is incapable of breeding naturally. That would be a dog I would wash from my program.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

This is a sore spot for me personally because the pup I'm training wasn't reared properly. Good genetics are only 1/2 the formula. If breeder doesn't do his part from wean thru vpat, litter will never rise to full potential. You don't _need_ that much yard to do it right. Dedicated breeders get it done in _much_ smaller spaces.
@ wean introduce a bunch of seesaws, tunnels, balls, tugs, springpoles, ramps, toys etc. Don't leave it all the time or pups get bored. Just a couple hrs at a time, and they go crazy exploring. Stash treats to foster hunt drive, start building ball drives, carefully break out the reizangel to start building prey and bite. When pups tucker out, take the gear away. When you return the gear, it will be exciting for the pups again. Try to reconfigure, add, build, as you go, in order to create new challenges for the pups..
Next week start them running to build endurance. Run them over obstacles to build confidence. Continue as directed until vpat and you will have a litter to be proud of. Best ped on the planet will fail if breeder drops the ball. Worst ped on the planet will succeed if breeder follows thru.
I forgot to mention imprinting and sound sensitivity. You want to condition a litter with some sort of _snapcracklepop!_ (whatever you can get away with onsite)and the best time to do it @ feeding. Litter will quickly begin to associate "_bang bang = kibbles and bits._"


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Look, not every dog in a litter will turn out well. You can have puppies in a litter that look exactly like the father and than there is that one puppy that looks just like the mother within the same litter. You are extremely lucky when you get one dog that is the same or better than the father and it is extremely rare to breed a dog that is better than the father.

There are males that are known to reproduce themselves but it will not work if you don't have a solid mother.


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## dogtricks (Apr 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> This is a sore spot for me personally because the pup I'm training wasn't reared properly. Good genetics are only 1/2 the formula. If breeder doesn't do his part from wean thru vpat, litter will never rise to full potential. You don't _need_ that much yard to do it right. Dedicated breeders get it done in _much_ smaller spaces.
> @ wean introduce a bunch of seesaws, tunnels, balls, tugs, springpoles, ramps, toys etc. Don't leave it all the time or pups get bored. Just a couple hrs at a time, and they go crazy exploring. Stash treats to foster hunt drive, start building ball drives, carefully break out the reizangel to start building prey and bite. When pups tucker out, take the gear away. When you return the gear, it will be exciting for the pups again. Try to reconfigure, add, build, as you go, in order to create new challenges for the pups..
> Next week start them running to build endurance. Run them over obstacles to build confidence. Continue as directed until vpat and you will have a litter to be proud of. Best ped on the planet will fail if breeder drops the ball. Worst ped on the planet will succeed if breeder follows thru.
> I forgot to mention imprinting and sound sensitivity. You want to condition a litter with some sort of _snapcracklepop!_ (whatever you can get away with onsite)and the best time to do it @ feeding. Litter will quickly begin to associate "_bang bang = kibbles and bits._"


If a dog only has 3 out of 10 (3/10) for prey drive, genetically, you can condition all you want but the dog is still only going to be a 3/10 in prey drive.

I agree though, that a breeder can help the litter reach its genetic potential.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

when I watch that video carefully I can spot the underachiever early on. @ 33 it actually retreats momentarily. When it finally catches up to the rest of the pack @ 1:07 note how it_ looks to the breeder _before engaging. Obviously that individal is not ipo3 material, but that's beside my point. I've learned not overestimate nature, and I've learned not to underestimate nurture.
SchH was encoded in gsd dna @ the breed's founding, but you can't expect any dog to just "organically" ipo based on the fact that it is "purebred." The entire process begins with a knowledgeable breeder @ wean. Again, this is the only real difference between import pups vs import genetics whelped in usa. 
I think perhaps my apparently "unique" perspective on this issue comes from the fact that I haven't even looked @ a gsd for over 20 yrs. To be honest I learned quite a bit fooling around with other breeds during that time, and I have to admit doing so really "demystified" gsd for me. 
I say the following not to troll or offend, but strictly on behalf of the breed. 20 yrs later I return only to find even more bogus health screens, more complicated breeding schemes, far less genetic diversity, and the breed in far worse shape than when I walked away from it over 20 yrs ago. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind gsd was THE greatest breed of dog ever created by man, and I'm glad I won't live long enough to witness it's bitter end. Granted that's awfully harsh, but re-reading this thread leaves me with a sense of... I don't know... I should probably just edit/delete this last paragraph... it certainly won't do any good... I'll post it because I want my testimony to be archived in cyber perpetuity...

cheers, everybody!


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Berno, have you ever bred any dogs?


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## dogtricks (Apr 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Next week start them running to build endurance. Run them over obstacles to build confidence. Continue as directed until vpat and you will have a litter to be proud of. Best ped on the planet will fail if breeder drops the ball. *Worst ped on the planet will succeed if breeder follows thru.*
> I forgot to mention imprinting and sound sensitivity. You want to condition a litter with some sort of _snapcracklepop!_ (whatever you can get away with onsite)and the best time to do it @ feeding. Litter will quickly begin to associate "_bang bang = kibbles and bits._"


I don't agree that "worse pedigree on planet can" succeed if breeder follows through with conditioning. 






@ *1:35* on timer to *2:05* on timer you can see this dog: Xaver von Loosbroekerhaus

This dog and many like him are an embarrassment to German Shepherd. Yet, this dog was Kkl1-recommended for breeding lol.

_"The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs."_ - Max v. Stephanitz

IMO, the main problems with the German Shepherd is not lack of conditioning from breeder at 4 weeks on, but rather poor breeding practices (not breeding to the standard and BYB - nice doggy to nice doggy). Also, breeding for extremes like super high prey for sport dogs without balance.

The main market for German Shepherds is not for working but for pets...although, a well bred shepherd should be able to do both. Unfortunately, average pet owners don't know how to handle a well bred German Shepherd.

People want golden retrievers in German Shepherd body. So you have all kinds of riff-raff breeding black sables with raccoon eyes without any regard for working temperament or nerve strength. Zero breeding planning, just nice doggy to nice doggy...MONEY

The real good breeders seem to be the exception.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> hmm...that black dog producing black show lines was most likely my comment since my friend owns him. That dog is from a genetically dominant black dog. Not a black dog in the woodpile. Now, whether another breed was brought in generations ago that has dominant black in there is a question I've never gotten an answer too. They did develop inside the Soviet Block but it could be a mutation.


No, this was not a dominant black.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

dogtricks said:


> This dog and many like him are an embarrassment to German Shepherd. Yet, this dog was Kkl1-recommended for breeding lol.



_NHSB 2660818 _ If I were you, I wouldn't loose any sleep over this dog.









_LOSH 1106570_ his only progeny DOB 2011 produced no registered offspring

if you really want to be mad about something, stick around for a couple months.
you'll be absolutely APPALLED @ my breeding program...


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## dogtricks (Apr 19, 2020)

No worries mate. I'm not mad at all 

Actually, that dog I posted just happened to be the first one I saw. There are many others just like him in that video.

"Here we have it in black and white that less than 20% of the SV German Shepherds have the necessary drive to do police service work."

Leerburg | The Split Between the German Police & The SV




berno von der seeweise said:


> if you really want to be mad about something, stick around for a couple months.
> you'll be absolutely* APPALLED* @ my breeding program...


I'm sold. I'll get the popcorn.

I won't get mad


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

These puppy playgrounds will not make up for poor genetics. They just won't. If you have weak genetics, it will show, and no matter how much you expose, you will always see it. 

You can have a puppy in a litter that was pushed down by it's littermates and it seems like it's a weaker puppy but once they are taken out of the litter and put into a home, they start striving and can actually end up being stronger than the strongest puppy in the litter. 
Also, sometimes you have a puppy that appears very strong. He's the bully, that bullies every puppy, likes to be on top of other puppies but a lot of times, that pup turns out to be rather nervy. 
Then you have a super nice puppy, that shows all the qualities you could ever want in a puppy and all of a sudden, they just fizzle out with maturity. 
Also, these playgrounds will not make up for true exposure and exploration. I get more out of puppies with exploration and exposure than sending them over these obstacles in order to get to food. Let them make their own experiences, let them climb, dig, jump, explore naturally. You can toss these obstacles out and they will use them during play. All of these puppy courses are more gimmicks to impress buyers.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Tikkie said:


> All of these puppy courses are more gimmicks to impress buyers.


*Tons *of breeder wisdom in Tikkie's post above. Decades, obviously. And Tikkie is 100% correct about breeders using cute puppy playgrounds as a marketing tool. Breeders, I assure you, 99.999% of puppy shoppers want absolutely* nothing *whatsoever to do with *any* of what I've been talking about. The kind of pups I'm talking about raising are _the overwhelming majority _of puppy buyer's "*worst nightmare*."

I've only been explaining that "ben ipo3's" pups won't ipo themselves unless you _rear them specifically _for protection sports. If you want to *compete* in protection sports, you best buy a pup from a litter that was bred weaned and conditioned* specifically* for that purpose.

seriously, how many buyers even_ think_ they want a dog like that? 1 in 1000? 1 in 5000? and of those 1 in 1000 or 5000, how many are _actually equipped_ to handle it? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 20,000? Forget about it. There is no profit margin to be had whatsoever.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Back to answer the original question, yes genetics come down from many generations back. When looking at the line breeding, you need to look at what dogs are being back massed on. There are many health issues beginning to pop up more and more, and when looking at the pedigrees, you will see the same dog, over and over 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 generations back... 6, 8 even 10 times or more... That definitely is genetics coming through numerous generations. That's one of the reason's I prefer no line breeding in the first 5 generations. You are cutting down on the back massing and getting better genetic diversity in the breed. My two cents worth, anyways.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

This thread is terrifying! Lol. I'm not that smart.
Here is a few things to consider though. All canines who pack produce litters of 4-6 pups on average, usually closer to 3-4, and these pups are born programmed to the position they will hold in a pack. Domestic dogs do this as well but have artificially large litters. 
Linebreeding has always been used to solidify traits but you solidify the good and the bad, inside and out. And few people ever stop to consider the impact some traits will have on ALL the pups in a litter. 
Linebreeding has been used for centuries in horses and livestock, but they produce ONE offspring per breeding and have longer gestations so if you do a breeding and the results are less then acceptable you know this before you get in too deep. With dogs you produce 8? pups and what now?
As far as how much is present in generations down the road that depends on so many genetic and environmental factors that there is no way to tell, and throwbacks are really a thing because of this. you also need to factor in that dogs can and will evolve and develop traits FAST! Like in 2 generations fast. 

So dog A is bred to dog B and dog C who where raised differently and born into different positions. Both bitches produce litters that look like Dog A. All 16 puppies go to different owners and circumstances and none act like Dog A. Breeding continues through two more generations and then the owner of Dog A gets a pup descended from the original breeding and that pup is the spitting image, inside and out, of Dog A and people jump to the throwback thing. In reality one pup, generations down, carried the right genetics and was raised in the same manner and held the same pack position at birth. 

High prey drive, just as an example, may work in a beta dog but in an omega is going to cause issues. Again just example. But if the beta is raised in a chaotic or neglectful environment and the omega is raised with steady and consistent handling they will present very differently again. But then you breed both dogs. So what issues have you created there?


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