# first day work the ecollar



## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Not sure if our first session went well or not. Just bought a dogtra 1500ncp off of eBay. I charged it for 3+hrs, but it died after only 30 minutes, so I'm not sure if it needs a new battery, maybe it just needs to be charged longer.

, I'm having trouble finding my boy's working level. I didn't see any reaction, just fur twitching at level 40 (out of 100). Shortly after, it was dying, so we just went on a walk.

Any advice? I tried to do some recall work (per Lou castles protocol) so I turned down a bit from 40, but I didn't think he was feeling it.

I think he wore an ecollar at the rescue, but I'm not sure what his experience was. When he tried another brand, he didn't feel the stim until 5 out of 7. So I don't know if 40 is just the level to work at or not. I don't want to fry the boy!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the collar isn't working correctly, please don't start training him on it. Dogtra's are known for their inconsistent stim. Especially the older models. 
I have a newer model 2300ncp and can feel it at 18, my dogs level is around 35 when not in a high state of drive. It has the 2 hour recharge feature.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> If the collar isn't working correctly, please don't start training him on it. Dogtra's are known for their inconsistent stim. Especially the older models.
> I have a newer model 2300ncp and can feel it at 18, my dogs level is around 35 when not in a high state of drive. It has the 2 hour recharge feature.


The collar is working,I could see the dogs hair twitch. It was the remote part that got a low battery. The dog just wasn't showing any signs other than the hair twitch that he felt it, so I'm not sure what level he feels it at.

I have never heard that dogtras are inconsistent :/


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You should start low then, with commands he knows and is proofed on. If you don't know his level, time to back up. Be fair to him.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> You should start low then, with commands he knows and is proofed on. If you don't know his level, time to back up. Be fair to him.


 That doesn't follow the protocol. You find their working level first and teach them how to "turn off" the stim, then you introduce the commands.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So then how are you finding the working level? From your posts, you don't know it yet?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If the collar is an older unit it may have the NiMH batteries that require a minimum 10 hr charge, Lithium polymer batteries 2 hrs. If you can figure out which battery your unit has, you can figure out if it needs to be charged longer or if replacement is needed.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> So then how are you finding the working level? From your posts, you don't know it yet?


 By seeing when he first feels it, which he's not showing me.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Nigel said:


> If the collar is an older unit it may have the NiMH batteries that require a minimum 10 hr charge, Lithium polymer batteries 2 hrs. If you can figure out which battery your unit has, you can figure out if it needs to be charged longer or if replacement is needed.


Thanks ! It is an older unit, so I will leave it charging over night.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> By seeing when he first feels it, which he's not showing me.


You said you saw a twitch. That's him showing you.

ETA the level at which you first saw the twitch is his working level


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> You said you saw a twitch. That's him showing you.
> 
> ETA the level at which you first saw the twitch is his working level


 No it's just his muscle reacting to the stim. Not him looking down, "biting at a bug", flicking his ears, etc. He is not twitching, his muscle is. He did not act like anything was happening.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

While getting a deep charge on the remote, it may pay to locate a trainer experienced with ecollars and have them work with you. It is amazing what a second set of eyes can see that we miss sometimes.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Never mind. Too many possibilities


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> This is weird. At what level is his muscle twitching? I thought this happened at higher levels.
> 
> In any case, my dog didn't react up until 20, I stopped then and asked for advice.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if it may be his way of shutting down, possibly? Maybe I will keep following the protocol on a lower level. I was also going to try again tomorrow in the house so he has zero distractions and see if he gives me something.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> I'm wondering if it may be his way of shutting down, possibly? Maybe I will keep following the protocol on a lower level. I was also going to try again tomorrow in the house so he has zero distractions and see if he gives me something.


Or it isn't tight enough. Or the collar is bad. Or inconsistent. That's why I deleted my post. Too many possibilities. 

Oh this should always be done with 0 distractions. I had this problem in the house. See what happens inside. The more distractions the higher the level they need

But I don't like using ecollar on a dog that doesn't know commands. Just a personal preference


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Or it isn't tight enough. Or the collar is bad. Or inconsistent. That's why I deleted my post. Too many possibilities.
> 
> Oh this should always be done with 0 distractions. I had this problem in the house. See what happens inside. The more distractions the higher the level they need
> 
> But I don't like using ecollar on a dog that doesn't know commands. Just a personal preference


I tried the collar on my arm, so I know it works and it does light up. 

the dog does know the commands, but the protocol does not work that way. You first teach the dog how to stop the stim. Not using the stim as punishment.

Will try again tomorrow inside instead of the backyard.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey GSL, I think you're missing a couple things in the way you're reading this stuff. If you're seeing a muscle twitch, he's feeling it. You're seeing his reaction to it. He doesnt have to do anything you listed. I'd probably turn it down a little, I may be wrong but it kinda sounds like he's resisting it a little more then you'd want for this.

He learns to turn off the stim by completing a known command, like sit or come. You can teach the commands with the collar, but I think its better with something known.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey GSL, I think you're missing a couple things in the way you're reading this stuff. If you're seeing a muscle twitch, he's feeling it. You're seeing his reaction to it. He doesnt have to do anything you listed. I'd probably turn it down a little, I may be wrong but it kinda sounds like he's resisting it a little more then you'd want for this.
> 
> He learns to turn off the stim by completing a known command, like sit or come. You can teach the commands with the collar, but I think its better with something known.


As I said before, we are doing Lou castles protocol, where you do not start with a command. 

The muscle twitch is like what happens when you use a tens unit, not like him twitching. Obviously he should feel that, but he had literally no reaction to it. He was not twitching his own muscle (imo) the stim was. If that makes any sense....


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ok. Have fun.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Ok. Have fun.


Ok? I was just trying to clarify.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I know, and you're following a plan, so I'm not going to contradict it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If he's twitching he can feel it. He just doesn't understand so he's ignoring it. Lou covers this on his page. 

Get a good charge on the transmitter and receiver. Put the collar on properly and then go through the steps to find his working level. Sometimes the signs that the dog can feel the stim are very subtle. If the first thing you see is a twitch, then stop there and do your leash pulls. 

Sometimes it takes some repetitions before you see the first turn towards you on the stim. After the dog figures out what the stim means, the response will happen quickly. 

If you go through 12 leash pulls without seeing any progress, I would put the dog up and try again tomorrow. 

You can pm Lou on this site or email him and he will certainly get back to you.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

David Winners said:


> If he's twitching he can feel it. He just doesn't understand so he's ignoring it. Lou covers this on his page.
> 
> Get a good charge on the transmitter and receiver. Put the collar on properly and then go through the steps to find his working level. Sometimes the signs that the dog can feel the stim are very subtle. If the first thing you see is a twitch, then stop there and do your leash pulls.
> 
> ...


I went back a reread it and I wasn't sure what he meant by 15 leash pulls. Is that the guiding the dog to move toward you for recall? 

Thanks!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Yes. You have the dog on a flexi leash and at the same time, stim and pull towards you. After the dog turns towards you, you release the stim. 

I can't overemphasize this enough. Read those pages on Lou's site until you hate them. Practice by yourself, or even better, with the collar on a training partner, until you get the mechanics and timing down. 

If you don't fully understand something, do not try it out on your dog. Ask questions and practice until you understand the protocol before you put the collar on the dog.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

So today went much better. We went to the park we walk at every day before anyone else was out walking. I waited until he was calm, he was laying down. I think this was a better place to go than our yard, because we spend more time here than in our yard. I saw HIM twitch on his back at 20, so I turned it down a little from there and started working.

He did awesome. After a few times he was glued to me. We went on a walk and he walked by my side for most of it.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Issues I had with dogtra. 
Inconsistent stim. Had to get longer prongs or tighten fit. 

Poor reception at distance. Had to replace antenna on transmitter. 

Poor battery life. Batteries on trans and reciever both needed replacing. 

Got an einstien. like it better except for the stupid transmitter shape.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Didn't do any work yesterday bc I was out of town. Did a little today and he was good. I'm just having trouble getting distance from him, if he feels the leash at all he comes right in to me. I am going to bring out my long line next time so I can get away from him a bit lol


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Be careful. Lou cautions about keeping the dog in the Velcro stage too long. A lot of us with working-line shepherd types have more trouble sending the dog away than keeping them close. This is where a send out, sit-stay, or other command paired with e-collar comes into play. Personally, I have no interest in simply teaching the dog that she can't leave my side with the e-collar. I use it to re-enforce commands with off-leash work especially with high distractions (other dogs). Quite complicated, but at some point you do need to use high-stim once or twice especially around a high distraction. 

At this point all I'm suggesting is you follow Lou's protocol and don't stay in Velcro stage too long. There's nothing abusive about Lou's methods (so you can't "ruin" a dog if you use low-stim), but you don't want the dog thinking the ground is somehow "hot" anywhere away from you, but rather to understand that she has control over the on/off of the stim by following commands.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Be careful. Lou cautions about keeping the dog in the Velcro stage too long. A lot of us with working-line shepherd types have more trouble sending the dog away than keeping them close. This is where a send out, sit-stay, or other command paired with e-collar comes into play. Personally, I have no interest in simply teaching the dog that she can't leave my side with the e-collar. I use it to re-enforce commands with off-leash work especially with high distractions (other dogs). Quite complicated, but at some point you do need to use high-stim once or twice especially around a high distraction.
> 
> At this point all I'm suggesting is you follow Lou's protocol and don't stay in Velcro stage too long. There's nothing abusive about Lou's methods (so you can't "ruin" a dog if you use low-stim), but you don't want the dog thinking the ground is somehow "hot" anywhere away from you, but rather to understand that she has control over the on/off of the stim by following commands.


Thank you for your response! I definitely don't want him to be too Velcro, although it is nice to have his focus and eye contact for longer periods. Something I've never gotten with him, even using only positive methods and raw meat.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> Not sure if our first session went well or not. Just bought a dogtra 1500ncp off of eBay. I charged it for 3+hrs, but it died after only 30 minutes, so I'm not sure if it needs a new battery, maybe it just needs to be charged longer.
> 
> , I'm having trouble finding my boy's working level. I didn't see any reaction, just fur twitching at level 40 (out of 100). Shortly after, it was dying, so we just went on a walk.
> 
> ...


Hey i'm pretty new to e-collar work!
I think a good idea when using e-collar is using it on yourself. Like other places and people have suggested to me. I even went to the 127 (highest stim) on my e-collar on myself to see what it felt like- to give me perspective.
My girl's working level as of now is from anywhere of 14-35 out of 127 stims, if that helps give you perspective on the stim you used, every dog is different though. We use the dogtra 1900. 

Lou Castle is a really nice guy and very knowledgeable, he usually will message you back on questions. He has a forums and also tells you step by step how to use e-collar.. fitting, finding working level, etc. on his website. If you still feel uncomfortable, maybe he might have suggestions to e-collar trainers that have a similar style to his that can show you in person that are near you. Or you can do your own research and ask many questions to see what type of e-collar work they do. 

This is my thread on me starting the e-collar. I'm no where near an expert. I'm still being trained!  

Good luck!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...t-session-e-collar-trainer-today-3-hours.html


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

VTGirlT said:


> Hey i'm pretty new to e-collar work!
> I think a good idea when using e-collar is using it on yourself. Like other places and people have suggested to me. I even went to the 127 (highest stim) on my e-collar on myself to see what it felt like- to give me perspective.
> My girl's working level as of now is from anywhere of 14-35 out of 127 stims, if that helps give you perspective on the stim you used, every dog is different though. We use the dogtra 1900.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Thank you! I will read through your thread too


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

So I'm really confused after our work today....as you guys know I'm following the Lou castle protocol. So I use a flexi leash when I'm working with the ecollar on recall. He has been super Velcro since starting the ecollar work.

Today we went on a walk and I forgot the flexi at home. I always have my long line with me though so I decided to work a little with that instead. Totally different dog. Had to turn the stim way up from what it was, it was like starting over. 


I Still have trouble finding his working level, so I usually try to find it, then adjust a little once I start, based on if he responds or not. I'm not sure why he is so different with the flexi, maybe he associates it with the stim? 

IDid an experiment when we got home and he again was super Velcro with the flexi, and okay but not Velcro with out and needed higher stim.

What do you guys think?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

you are going with Lou's protocol, you should ask Lou. IF I were training my dog to an ecollar without knowing, I would not be asking advice on a forum but train with someone knowledgeable on it and working one on one with them. You need to be fair to your dog.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> you are going with Lou's protocol, you should ask Lou. IF I were training my dog to an ecollar without knowing, I would not be asking advice on a forum but train with someone knowledgeable on it and working one on one with them. You need to be fair to your dog.


I have asked him as well. That is also why I am keeping the stim so low, the highest I have used on him for recall is 20.

Ecollar trainer is not in my budget and there are none with in a driving distance that I can do right now. 

Luckily I have very good timing and have been erring on the side if caution.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think you're being a little too random, too soon. You need to spend more time in a setting that eliminates all the variables you'll come accross out on a walk. You shouldnt be turning up the juice, you're supposed to be showing him how he can turn it off.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I think you're being a little too random, too soon. You need to spend more time in a setting that eliminates all the variables you'll come accross out on a walk. You sho:hug:uldnt be turning up the juice, you're supposed to be showing him how he can turn it off.


I followed the protocol so that if the dog doesn't respond after 15-20 leash pulls, you up the stim. I don't think that is too random, do you? 

He turns to me immediately every time on the flexi. And took no notice of the stim on the long line in the same location. That's what really got me.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Random as in his surroundings changing his attention level and perception of what you are doing. You arent isolating what you want, his learning about electric and how to respond to it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Here's some more stuff you can read:

https://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Here's some more stuff you can read:
> 
> https://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/schutzhund/schutz.html


Thanks for the link!


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

So I talked with Lou about it on his forum and he thinks I could be right, that he is associating with the flexi. I also did a session on the flexi with the ecollar on his neck, but not turned on, you would have thought it was on. He acted just the same as when I stim him. I think he feels the slight pull from the flexi, that's why he is so Velcro. He is not like that on a regular leash.

Going to start from the beginning on the long line and ditch the flexi for now.


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