# Looking to breed my male.



## mockbam5

I'm looking to breed my male, I do not want money just a pick in the litter. My dog has perfect temperament and is very healthy. He is 14 months old at the moment.

Parents

va4 Ilbo vom Holtkamper and the mom is sg5 Leila vom Drei Birkenzwinger

I purchased my puppy from Germany.


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## Emoore

You don't want to wait for his hip scores?


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## Jessiewessie99

I would suggest reading this:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/149422-so-you-want-breeder.html

There is much more to breeding than what you are talking about.


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## Chris Wild

What health testing has he had done? At 14 months old he's not yet old enough for OFAs, but perhaps he was certified in Germany where a dog need only be 12 months. He's too young to have titles yet, but is he in training for those and when do you expect them to be accomplished?

Unfortunately, "perfect" temperament and health is very subjective, and also cannot be truly proven without impartial evaluations in the sense of health testing and some form of test of proper breed temperament and ability by a qualified judge (e.g. titles).

Furthermore, despite a strong pedigree and heritage, if he cannot prove that he lives up to that himself via his own accomplishments, the fact is you will not be able to attract the owner of a quality bitch to breed to him. Why would someone with an excellent bitch choose to breed to an untitled, untested, unproven male when there are hundreds of highly titled, tested and proven studs to choose from? And without a quality bitch, no matter how strong of a producer your male may be himself, one cannot have a quality litter of quality puppies.


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## Lucy Dog

I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to post this... might as well be me.

mockbam5, here's a good flow chart to help you decide if your dog is a good candidate to be bred. Let us know how your dog matches up and if you have any questions.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## Lora

I am sorry but is there not enough qualified breeders out there, enough GSD's that need homes, enough backyard breeders, and puppy mills ...... pick of the litter for a quality pup is like getting money IMO. Instead of getting Stud Fees you get a pup ...
a pup that if is of any quality could fetch hundreds of dollars so technically you are getting money .... in order to get one pup, four or six have to be born .... What if the female turns on your male you could end up with vet bills... an offspring from a GSD or any other breed that you have loved is so great to have, but it can be selfish too...
Please do not take it as I am calling you selfish I am not..... Just think it through real hard before you stud out....


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## mockbam5

Thank you for all the wise input. I'm waiting to have my dog OFA certified, and I will not be showing my dog although he has all potential to be a great show dog. Now regarding temperament, when I say perfect temperament I really mean it. I have never heard him growl or have aggressive tendencies towards any human, he is very social with all dogs. Fulfills all his commands and duties. Protects the home and listens carefully. We had a dog trainer who usto also train police dogs and he said my dog would be a perfect candidate for police work or search and rescue. My family has had German shepherds in our lives for many many generations. This being my second, and I am pleased to say Kai is the perfect assortment of strength, mind, and temperament. The best dog my family has ever been with. By looks he's almost an exact copy of ilbo vom holtkamper see. The reason I want to mate my male, is because more dedicated German shepherd lovers want a puppy from my dog. Now I have sent all my friends to dirk from osterbergland. Most say they want a puppy from kai due to his looks, temperament and energy.


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## mockbam5

Looking at that box above, I'm ready to mate my guy when he is ready.


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## rvadog

What's it like to be in your own little world where it's sunny all the time?


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## mockbam5

Also, I would have gone to my breeder but he lives in germany. When he sent me the puppy he said, "I sent you one of the best two puppies in the litter, he is too young to tell if he will be a champion show dog but I believe he will be a great show dog by looking at him now." I sent pictures to dirk when he turned one and he was amazed at how great my dog looked and said you now have serious show dog.


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## mockbam5

rvadog said:


> What's it like to be in your own little world where it's sunny all the time?


I'm very much down to earth. If my dog even had one reason not to be bred, I wouldn't even think about it and have him neutered.


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## mockbam5

I'm not here to argue, I would like for a recognized breeder to look at my dog and decide for him/her self if my dog would be perfect. Thats all.


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## Liesje

mockbam5 said:


> I'm very much down to earth. If my dog even had one reason not to be bred, I wouldn't even think about it and have him neutered.


But so far there are no reasons FOR him to be bred. No OFA or a-stamp, no title, no show cards or breed survey. No proof or evidence of correct conformation, healthy joints, correct temperament and drives.


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## rvadog

mockbam5 said:


> If my dog even had one reason not to be bred, I wouldn't even think about it and have him neutered.


You are lying through your teeth. There are thousands of GSD's that have "perfect temperament" but are titled and health checked.

What makes your dog more special than the SchH3 dog in my club that loves kids and is almost golden retriever sociable but can be instantly protective?

The only person you are going to find is a BYB. Go spend some time learning about GSD's, title him in something, then think about it.

And the issue for me is you are doing this for very selfish reasons. If you truly loved the GSD breed then you would see how what you are asking is harmful. The SchH3 I mentioned above? The one in which the owner has taken years to title and work with? He refuses to breed it because he says there are better shepherds out there. He loves his dog but unlike you he also cares about the breed as a whole.


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## Liesje

Also I would bet Ilbo is still breeding. Why not get another puppy by him out of a dam of the same lines as your male's dam? You'll get something a lot closer to your male than breeding a poor quality female to him trying to get a puppy like him.

The breeder sending you a nice show puppy and a dog trainer liking him is not a substitute for years of work training, conditioning, and titling the dog. This sort of breeding is what underminds the entire process. People expect to buy nice puppies from Germany out of parents that have high show ratings and titles, and think they can be overnight experts and good breeders without having to do the same?


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## Cassidy's Mom

mockbam5 said:


> If my dog even had one reason not to be bred, I wouldn't even think about it and have him neutered.


What would you consider a valid reason not to breed? There are usually numerous reasons why any particular dog should not be bred, but I suspect that you wouldn't care about most of them because it sounds like you've already got your mind made up. :shrug: No decent breeder is going to simply look at your dog and tell you if he should be bred. For one thing, the best way to know if he truly _does_ have the potential to be a "great show dog" is to actually SHOW him. (BTW, Chris Wild IS an experienced breeder, did you read her post?)

Just this week I got yet another "it's a shame" comment about my dogs being speutered, as if there aren't enough GSDs being bred without my two adding to the gene pool. Yes, they're "good" dogs, yes, they're beautiful, yes, they're smart. But so what? The breed isn't going to disappear or even suffer if I choose not to become a BYBer.


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## JKlatsky

Liesje said:


> But so far there are no reasons FOR him to be bred. No OFA or a-stamp, no title, no show cards or breed survey. No proof or evidence of correct conformation, healthy joints, correct temperament and drives.


 Agree.
Stud dogs are a dime a dozen. People with quality females want males with paperwork because it makes them easier to sell and advertise. Believe me I know. I have a stud dog that has ALL the paperwork and titles as well as exemplary temperament and no one's beating down my door to use him. Why?? Because he's not current. 

Most breeders with females will usually go one of 2 routes- 
1. They use a male that they already own.
2. They go to a high achieving male in their region, or even further. Agree with what Lies said- Why would someone who wants your dog's bloodline use your male with no titles, breed survey etc. if Dad is still producing? 

Consider it from the bitch owner's prospective. And if you can't take it to a quality bitch...well then it really doesn't matter how good your male is. The bitch is arguably a bigger influence on the pups.


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## Whiteshepherds

JKlatsky said:


> I have a stud dog that has ALL the paperwork and titles as well as exemplary temperament and no one's beating down my door to use him. Why?? Because he's not current.


What does "he's not current" mean? Too old, titles are from years ago maybe?


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## Andaka

Not the popular bloodlines. I have had that problem with my dogs too. My American show line dogs are older bloodlines that no one is interested in anymore, even though they were top winning and performing dogs. Oh, well.


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## elisabeth_00117

Andaka said:


> Not the popular bloodlines. I have had that problem with my dogs too. My American show line dogs are older bloodlines that no one is interested in anymore, even though they were top winning and performing dogs. Oh, well.


You can send me one of your 'out of date' bloodlined pups any day!!!


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## Liesje

Also, some of the top studs are accessible for cheap or free. They get better rankings based on their progeny, hence why they are bred so often. So, again, why would the owner of a really nice female choose an untitled, unproven male and be required to provide a puppy, when they can breed to some of the top studs in the US or Europe for cheap or even free?


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## emsoskar

I can't help myself so I must post this....imagine if people shared that same attitude with our own abilities to "breed" lol. Like because someone is really good looking, comes from a great family, and has potential they should be bred and their genes carried on. Just think of how many "Zoolander" (its a comedy about a male model who is full of himself in case you don't know) type offspring would be running around. Hahaha. What an amusing thought. 

I blame this moment of ridiculous thinking to the lack of sleep from two 7 week old pups.......:wild:

I think everyone's point here is that just because you have this super awesome, sexy in the dog world gsd....that doesn't mean you have to breed him. I was at the vet's office the other day, and what do you know there was another gsd there just about to leave. The owners asked if our pups were male or female, they seemed disappointed when I told them male as they "want to breed their male later on." Of course they did. Because everyone does. Unless one of my dogs starts crapping gold nuggets, they will never be bred. Because they just don't HAVE to be.


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## Whiteshepherds

mockbam5 said:


> *Thank you for all the wise input. I'm waiting to have my dog OFA certified, and I will not be showing my dog although he has all potential to be a great show dog*. Now regarding temperament, when I say perfect temperament I really mean it. I have never heard him growl or have aggressive tendencies towards any human, he is very social with all dogs. Fulfills all his commands and duties. Protects the home and listens carefully. We had a dog trainer who usto also train police dogs and he said my dog would be a perfect candidate for police work or search and rescue. My family has had German shepherds in our lives for many many generations. *This being my second, and I am pleased to say Kai is the perfect assortment of strength, mind, and temperament.* The best dog my family has ever been with. By looks he's almost an exact copy of ilbo vom holtkamper see. The reason I want to mate my male, is because more dedicated German shepherd lovers want a puppy from my dog. Now I have sent all my friends to dirk from osterbergland. Most say they want a puppy from kai due to his looks, temperament and energy.


I'm just curious to know if you already are, or if you'll be doing any sports, Schutz. etc. with him in the future? He sounds like a great dog, I'm just wondering if he's a companion and pet only, or if you're out there letting him use all the great qualities he might have.


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## Stevenzachsmom

emsoskar....If one of your dogs DOES start crapping gold nuggets - please DO breed him. I want one of those pups. LOL!


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## lizzyjo

MY HEART GOES OUT TO ALL THE RESCUE DOGS THAT APPEAR ON THIS SITE. I WONDER IF ONE OF THOSE WERE THE "GREAT" DOGS THAT YOUR DOG IS GOING TO SIRE? CAN WE JUST IMAGINE IN THE U.S. HOW MANY GSDS ARE IN A RESCUE OR A KILL SHELTER....DO YOU THINK THE WE ACTUALLY need ANOTHER LITTER. I AM NOT BASHING THE BREEDERS THAT HAVE INVESTED THEIR TIME AND MONEY IN PERFECTING THE BREED....BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW TO PUT ON A BANDAID DOES NOT MAKE YOU A DOCTOR.


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## Liesje

Well, I don't agree with the "every time you breed a littler, you kill shelter dogs" attitude. Personally, I don't have a problem with people breeding, as long as they're breeding with a little bit more forethought and experience. The breed will need new trainers, competitors, breeders, exhibitors, etc or there will be no one left, no one lives forever.


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## wolfstraum

mockbam5 said:


> I'm not here to argue, I would like for a recognized breeder to look at my dog and decide for him/her self if my dog would be perfect. Thats all.


Pretty much SV judges are breeders first! 

So take the dog - show it - title it - koer it - THAT says it should be bred.

And "don't want money - ONLY want puppy" is in a normal situation asking for MORE than average stud fee....and why most litters in the Sunday paper classifieds ARE bred..........someone wants a pup from their "perfect" dog - 

As everyone says - to get the owner of a quality breeding approved female to breed to your male - there has to be a reason for them to use him - tons of very nice "gorgeous" well bred Sch3 males never get a breeding - and most males in the US get relatively few breedings outside their own kennel - only the top top dogs get multiple outside females....

IF this dog is as nice as you think - get out there, get involved with the sport and get the credentials - if he is that nice, there might be a nice female whose owner likes him too!

Lee


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## lizzyjo

liesje said:


> well, i don't agree with the "every time you breed a littler, you kill shelter dogs" attitude. Personally, i don't have a problem with people breeding, as long as they're breeding with a little bit more forethought and experience. The breed will need new trainers, competitors, breeders, exhibitors, etc or there will be no one left, no one lives forever.


 what i meant to say, was "i" think breeding should be a profession and not a hobby. Someone who knows the breed and tries to improve the gsd breed. But i believe alot of the kill shelter dogs are a result of a byb trying to make a quick buck and producing dogs with faults that people throw away. Sorry didnt mean to offend anyone.


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## emsoskar

Stevenzachsmom said:


> emsoskar....If one of your dogs DOES start crapping gold nuggets - please DO breed him. I want one of those pups. LOL!


You got it!  That will be the first poop I would kill to pick up!!


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## Lin

Liesje said:


> Well, I don't agree with the "every time you breed a littler, you kill shelter dogs" attitude. Personally, I don't have a problem with people breeding, as long as they're breeding with a little bit more forethought and experience. The breed will need new trainers, competitors, breeders, exhibitors, etc or there will be no one left, no one lives forever.


Ditto. And imagine if everyone did stop breeding, then what happens when we are only left with the poor representations of the breed for reproduction? Our beloved breed would die without the responsible breeders working their butts off (like Chris) to bring to breed to a higher level.


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## Denali Girl

emsoskar said:


> I can't help myself so I must post this....imagine if people shared that same attitude with our own abilities to "breed" lol. Like because someone is really good looking, comes from a great family, and has potential they should be bred and their genes carried on. Just think of how many "Zoolander" (its a comedy about a male model who is full of himself in case you don't know) type offspring would be running around. Hahaha. What an amusing thought.
> 
> I blame this moment of ridiculous thinking to the lack of sleep from two 7 week old pups.......:wild:
> 
> I think everyone's point here is that just because you have this super awesome, sexy in the dog world gsd....that doesn't mean you have to breed him. I was at the vet's office the other day, and what do you know there was another gsd there just about to leave. The owners asked if our pups were male or female, they seemed disappointed when I told them male as they "want to breed their male later on." Of course they did. Because everyone does. Unless one of my dogs starts crapping gold nuggets, they will never be bred. Because they just don't HAVE to be.


 
Well to the first part of your answer, I agree with you.........1945 Germany!


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## lizzyjo

I kind of am the mind set that "we" cannot be the best judges of our own dogs. There are alot of professional awards that are certification by others that qualify our dogs as a better than average quality.


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## Emoore

mockbam5 said:


> Looking at that box above, I'm ready to mate my guy when he is ready.


Referring to the box, "impartial outside observers" means breed wardens and judges, not your neighbor who used to train police dogs.


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## lizzyjo

yeah what emoore said was what i was trying to say...


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## RudeDogTraining

In all respect and courtesy, there is a lot more that goes into breeding than having pick of the litter. What is your ultimate goal in breeding? What are you trying to keep or even change in the line of dog you have? What type of homes would you give your dog to? Would you be able to provide a health guarantee to the owners? Would you have legal documents between you and the bitch's owner? What if the owner decides they don't want to keep the dog, and they get rid of it, and one of your pups is in a shelter or in a home that knows nothing of the breed or their needs? There are so many things to think about before having a litter of puppies, and as Jessie said, look at the thread "so you want to be a breeder". A LOT goes into breeding a dog. My breeder imports international champions in schutzhund and shows, and it would be nice to have an offspring of my puppy, because he's everything a GSD should be (not saying yours or anyone else's isnt), however, I admit to myself that I do not know nearly as much as I should about what goes into breeding. Just do your research and then think if it's something you want to go through.


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## Mrs.K

lizzyjo said:


> what i meant to say, was "i" think breeding should be a profession and not a hobby. Someone who knows the breed and tries to improve the gsd breed. But i believe alot of the kill shelter dogs are a result of a byb trying to make a quick buck and producing dogs with faults that people throw away. Sorry didnt mean to offend anyone.


You know that all breeders in Germany are supposed to be Hobbybreeders and actually NOT supposed to make any profit from breeding dogs? 

Reality is much different though... some breeders earned themselves "a golden nose" by breeding...


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## Emoore

Mrs.K said:


> Reality is much different though... some breeders earned themselves "a golden nose" by breeding...


Out of curiosity, what does "a golden nose" roughly translate to? Because in English it makes them sound like a cocaine dealer.


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## emsoskar

Emoore said:


> Out of curiosity, what does "a golden nose" roughly translate to? Because in English it makes them sound like a cocaine dealer.



LOL! Wait, wouldn't that be a white powdered donut nose??


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## sagelfn

mockbam5 said:


> Thank you for all the wise input. I'm waiting to have my dog OFA certified, and I will not be showing my dog although he has all potential to be a great show dog. Now regarding temperament, when I say perfect temperament I really mean it. I have never heard him growl or have aggressive tendencies towards any human, he is very social with all dogs. Fulfills all his commands and duties. Protects the home and listens carefully. We had a dog trainer who usto also train police dogs and he said my dog would be a perfect candidate for police work or search and rescue. My family has had German shepherds in our lives for many many generations. This being my second, and I am pleased to say Kai is the perfect assortment of strength, mind, and temperament. The best dog my family has ever been with. By looks he's almost an exact copy of ilbo vom holtkamper see. The reason I want to mate my male, is because more dedicated German shepherd lovers want a puppy from my dog. Now I have sent all my friends to dirk from osterbergland. Most say they want a puppy from kai due to his looks, temperament and energy.


No offense intended but I'm wondering how somone who has only owned GSD pets knows what the correct temperament of a GSD is. I'm sure he's a wonderful pet but the GSD is not meant to be only a pet. "Pet quality" GSDs should not be bred. Until you prove your dog can work and do good in shows he is only a pet.


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## Lin

^ you're opening up another can of worms there by saying pet quality shouldn't be bred lol. There are many breeders that specialize in "pet lines" of GSD. I've seen that argument get dirty here before. 

Or are you referring to the "pet" dogs in an otherwise show/working litter? Yes, those shouldn't be bred. They are specifically not what the breeder was going for in the breeding, but otherwise great dogs that make great pets.


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## mockbam5

Guys you are taking this out of line. I have family member who is fully capable,extremly responsible and passionate about our breed of dogs. He has had 2 German shepherds in his past from Breeders in Germany. My dog has great agility and stamina, he has a prey drive, he is extremely affectionate with people, and guards the house well. This is why this particular family member wants a puppy from my dog. He is beautiful (Not only my opinion) comes from great blood line and has the full capability to win medals, honors and awards. Its my fault since I do not have time to spend 40 hours a week working on my dog's ring skills. None of my previous dogs have been bred. So stop calling me a bad, awful person. I want a breeder to look at my dog and judge for him/her self. I don't have any foul intentions, I will only breed with a responsible breeder which has healthy, well tempered bitches. If you are willing to help then do so, otherwise mind your business as I am a responsible adult who has only good intentions. I feel like I have the perfect dog and I should share my wealth with others. I feel extremely lucky and have all intentions to better the breed rather than spread a bad name for a German shepherd.


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## mockbam5

Mrs.K said:


> You know that all breeders in Germany are supposed to be Hobbybreeders and actually NOT supposed to make any profit from breeding dogs?
> 
> Reality is much different though... some breeders earned themselves "a golden nose" by breeding...



Mrs. K , I was on the phone with DIRK for 2 months every single day until he decided to give me a puppy. He charged me for the food and time's cost it took to take care of the dog.


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## onyx'girl

Ring skills do not make a GSD. Conformation is just one of the important parts of the dog.
If you are serious about breeding him, then you should be serious about getting titles on him. If you don't have the time to title him, hire someone to do so(more often than not, titles are not _handler owner __trained_, unfortunately) Send him to Germany to get titled...
A responsible breeder will not look at your "stud" with out him showing he is everything and more that can benefit the breed.
Go out and work your dog, show everyone how special he is by earning titles...then you just may have responsible breeders asking if they can use him as stud.


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## sagelfn

I guess everyone has a different definition of pet quality. I am talking about dogs that are not able to perform in any working venue or show because they are lacking.

I think that is different than someone working or showing their dogs in something and then placing dogs on non breeding contracts in pet homes.


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## mockbam5

Whiteshepherds said:


> I'm just curious to know if you already are, or if you'll be doing any sports, Schutz. etc. with him in the future? He sounds like a great dog, I'm just wondering if he's a companion and pet only, or if you're out there letting him use all the great qualities he might have.


We haven't done any sports and Schultz. Work schedule makes it difficult to do so. He is extremely fit since I let him off the leash daily and run with him, he runs a bit more than I do , so he gets about 5-10 miles daily exercise with me alone and then another at least 5 daily in the backyard.


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## Liesje

mockbam5 said:


> Its my fault since I do not have time to spend 40 hours a week working on my dog's ring skills.


Even my lazy no drive mutt dog has at the very least a CGC certificate and I spend 5 minutes training a dog, 3-4 times a week. Most of my friends spend more time than that per half hour tinkering with their smart phone. I also do not ring train my dog* at all* and he is 3 times VP, SG, and UKC Champion (with twice as many points as he needed). I am at work 9 hours a day plus I do other projects on the side.

Why would a breeder give you their time when you admittedly cannot do the bare minimum with your dog? To be that seems disrespectful of their time and knowledge. What makes you different than anyone else who claims to have a champion show dog that won't ever be shown or a fabulous pet with no formal training or testing? We are not attacking you personally, but everyone here has heard this all before 100 times over. If you could see the state and behavior of some of the dogs I've heard the same claims made about you'd understand.


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## mockbam5

Instead of saying you dont know what the proper temperament is, how about the expert dog breeders tell me what the proper temperament may be. :doggieplayball:


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## Liesje

That is easy enough, enter the dog in a trial and have it evaluated. The BH is the basic obedience test and temperament test. Half of it is the temperament/traffic portion where the dog is evaluated on whether it should continue.


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## Whiteshepherds

Let's assume he gets great results from health testing, hips are excellant etc. 
What will your criteria be for choosing a dam?


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## onyx'girl

It would seem you should know that as an up and coming stud owner...
Have you ever read this:United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard


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## Liesje

You can also enter the dog in the ATTS Temperament Test. There is NO obedience required (not even allowed) for this test, it is a temperament test/certificate. You can also do herding instinct evaluations/certificates to see if the dog has the right behaviors for herding (not just "prey drive").


Another thing, if I remember correctly the dog is only 14 months? You are not seeing the "true" dog yet. GSDs mature slowly both mentally and physically. My dog went through a rather drastic change mentally/temperament from 22-26 months. His bitework, tracking, obedience, and his general nature around the house and in public changed quite a bit during that time frame. I would not assume I'm really seeing my dog for who he is until he is three years old.


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## KLCecil

Can you post pictures of him stacked, his pedigree, his health clearances and his titles he has achieved?

These are the minimum requirements that any of the reputable breeders on here will require before breeding to one of their bitches.


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## selzer

He is fourteen months old. You have PLENTY of time.

If you want to do this "right" here are some thinks you should consider doing:

1. Join a shepherd club, go to meetings, volunteer at events or show your dog.

2. Join a training club or schutzhund club, go to meetings, volunteer or show your dog.

3. Use these venues to find some top GSD breeders. Get to know them, and their bloodlines. They need to know that you are not one of the fifty milliion shepherd owners who think their dogs are Gods' gift to the GSD, and that you are serious about breeding responsibly.

4. Make a decision that you will NOT breed your dog to ANY bitch that does not meet a strict list of requriements, hips, elbows, von wildebrand's diesease, brucesllosis as a minimum of health checks, and then too acheivements that prove the temperament, (CGC is nice but not enough).

5. Spend the next two years learning everything there is to know about breeding and about the German Shepherd breed. Take time every day to study different bloodlines. Look critically at the GSD, to see what you like and what you dislike in the breed. You will want to breed for some things, health, temperament, and away from other things. I would suggest staying within your dog's lines -- working, ddr, Czech whichever they are. But inside of those lines you want to get to know the dogs, what they have, what they are known for producing. It does not happen over night.

6. Spend all of this time, training, and showcasing your dog. At fourteen months his final temperament is not yet 100%. But there is no reason you should not be putting lots of time on the trianing field with him. He is a dog, he can wait until he is six or seven to have his first litter, it is not like bitches who really cannot wait forever. Make him as desireable to bitch owners as he is to you, by his accomplisments.

7. So you want to breed him and get a puppy out of him. To what end? If it is simply to have a puppy out of him, just stop now. That is not a good enough reason. You really have to be a serious student of the breed and breed a dog to produce progeny that have the breeding and potential to produce excellent shepherds. 

If you have an awesome dog, and you spend the next two years training him, train him for SAR, for Schutzhund, for agility, obedience, whatever. And down the line you find an awesome bitch that complements him, and is strong where he is weak, and you want to have puppies out of the match, by then, maybe you will be able to convince the awesome bitch's owner that your dog has what it takes.

Or, forget all the above, put an ad in the personal column, Looking for AKC German Shepherd Bitch, so my dog can sire a litter. Would like bitch to be sable coloring, but other colors might be Black, or blue, or liver, or black and tan. Will provide stud for a puppy only. Call 8675 3 0 9, or leave a message on the wall...

Don't hold your breath.


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## mockbam5

onyx'girl said:


> It would seem you should know that as an up and coming stud owner...
> Have you ever read this:United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard



Onyx yes I have, thank you though.


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## lizzyjo

Am i missing something here...i thought the common answer was "dont" ....or if you insist on it dont expect a top notch bitch.


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## mockbam5

selzer said:


> He is fourteen months old. You have PLENTY of time.
> 
> If you want to do this "right" here are some thinks you should consider doing:
> 
> 1. Join a shepherd club, go to meetings, volunteer at events or show your dog.
> 
> 2. Join a training club or schutzhund club, go to meetings, volunteer or show your dog.
> 
> 3. Use these venues to find some top GSD breeders. Get to know them, and their bloodlines. They need to know that you are not one of the fifty milliion shepherd owners who think their dogs are Gods' gift to the GSD, and that you are serious about breeding responsibly.
> 
> 4. Make a decision that you will NOT breed your dog to ANY bitch that does not meet a strict list of requriements, hips, elbows, von wildebrand's diesease, brucesllosis as a minimum of health checks, and then too acheivements that prove the temperament, (CGC is nice but not enough).
> 
> 5. Spend the next two years learning everything there is to know about breeding and about the German Shepherd breed. Take time every day to study different bloodlines. Look critically at the GSD, to see what you like and what you dislike in the breed. You will want to breed for some things, health, temperament, and away from other things. I would suggest staying within your dog's lines -- working, ddr, Czech whichever they are. But inside of those lines you want to get to know the dogs, what they have, what they are known for producing. It does not happen over night.
> 
> 6. Spend all of this time, training, and showcasing your dog. At fourteen months his final temperament is not yet 100%. But there is no reason you should not be putting lots of time on the trianing field with him. He is a dog, he can wait until he is six or seven to have his first litter, it is not like bitches who really cannot wait forever. Make him as desireable to bitch owners as he is to you, by his accomplisments.
> 
> 7. So you want to breed him and get a puppy out of him. To what end? If it is simply to have a puppy out of him, just stop now. That is not a good enough reason. You really have to be a serious student of the breed and breed a dog to produce progeny that have the breeding and potential to produce excellent shepherds.
> 
> If you have an awesome dog, and you spend the next two years training him, train him for SAR, for Schutzhund, for agility, obedience, whatever. And down the line you find an awesome bitch that complements him, and is strong where he is weak, and you want to have puppies out of the match, by then, maybe you will be able to convince the awesome bitch's owner that your dog has what it takes.
> 
> Or, forget all the above, put an ad in the personal column, Looking for AKC German Shepherd Bitch, so my dog can sire a litter. Would like bitch to be sable coloring, but other colors might be Black, or blue, or liver, or black and tan. Will provide stud for a puppy only. Call 8675 3 0 9, or leave a message on the wall...
> 
> Don't hold your breath.


Thank you, I will follow your steps. The last thing I want to do is your final option. (which is not an option at all to me.) I am a perfectionist and I would like a perfect bitch, and if it takes effort to make a perfect match that's what it will take.


----------



## vomlittlehaus

mockbam5 said:


> We haven't done any sports and Schultz. Work schedule makes it difficult to do so. He is extremely fit since I let him off the leash daily and run with him, he runs a bit more than I do , so he gets about 5-10 miles daily exercise with me alone and then another at least 5 daily in the backyard.


I thought you said you dont have time to train him? How long does it take to run 5-10 miles? If you spent only two of those times a week training, you could certainly earn an obedience title. Mental stimulation is just as tiring as physical work.


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## mockbam5

AKC's Canine Good Citizen (CGC) Program

My dog does all of this already and much more. CGC is just to prove the dog has good listening and temperament skills.


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## mockbam5

dawnandjr said:


> I thought you said you dont have time to train him? How long does it take to run 5-10 miles? If you spent only two of those times a week training, you could certainly earn an obedience title. Mental stimulation is just as tiring as physical work.


I train my dog daily for command recognition and then test him off leash. I spend an hour a day with my dog running and playing. I have never done any SCCH3 training though. I run about 3-5 miles when with him, but I let him wander and run around for a long period of time and on call he comes right back to my knee.


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## onyx'girl

Well then it shouldn't take much to get with a club or group and work on getting him titled. 
A CGC is nothing more than a certificate. It has nothing to do with being breedworthy. My fear aggressive one passed the test twice but I'd never pass along her genetics.
As others and I have written, if you are serious, then do some serious training/titliing...show the world how special your boy is.


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## mockbam5

onyx'girl said:


> Well then it shouldn't take much to get with a club or group and work on getting him titled.
> A CGC is nothing more than a certificate. It has nothing to do with being breedworthy. My fear aggressive one passed the test twice but I'd never pass along her genetics.
> As others and I have written, if you are serious, then do some serious training/titliing...show the world how special your boy is.


Would I have a problem with titles since my dog is Showline but by German Standards?


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## onyx'girl

What do you mean? Showlines are still GSD's and should have working titles...conformation title is just about the body. If your dog is "breedworthy" he should have a SchH title to prove his character, but that is only my opinion, many showline breeders do not go that far in proving breed worthiness.

_The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog._

Not going to find that tested in the showring.


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## Liesje

Yes, b/c of the genetics of the dog it will be a lot more work, but if the dog is decent it can be done.


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## mockbam5

Here is a quick picture I just took of kai. He hasnt been washed since the snow storms hit so he isn't looking his best :laugh:


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## mockbam5

onyx'girl said:


> What do you mean? Showlines are still GSD's and should have working titles...conformation title is just about the body. If your dog is "breedworthy" he should have a SchH title to prove his character.
> 
> _The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog._
> 
> Not going to find that tested in the showring.


What I meant by that, he is perfect standards by SV but not so sure about AKC.


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## Lin

sagelfn said:


> I guess everyone has a different definition of pet quality. I am talking about dogs that are not able to perform in any working venue or show because they are lacking.
> 
> I think that is different than someone working or showing their dogs in something and then placing dogs on non breeding contracts in pet homes.


Well thats what the debate would be. But has been discussed on this forum, breeders who specialize in breeding for pet homes and not in working or showing.


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## onyx'girl

AKC is all about the look, too...more to the dog than the looks.
AKC doesn't even recognize SchH titles...


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## Lin

mockbam5 said:


> What I meant by that, he is perfect standards by SV but not so sure about AKC.


Don't go to AKC shows then, stick to SV ones. Or UKC.


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## irongrl

lizzyjo said:


> MY HEART GOES OUT TO ALL THE RESCUE DOGS THAT APPEAR ON THIS SITE. I WONDER IF ONE OF THOSE WERE THE "GREAT" DOGS THAT YOUR DOG IS GOING TO SIRE? CAN WE JUST IMAGINE IN THE U.S. HOW MANY GSDS ARE IN A RESCUE OR A KILL SHELTER....DO YOU THINK THE WE ACTUALLY need ANOTHER LITTER. I AM NOT BASHING THE BREEDERS THAT HAVE INVESTED THEIR TIME AND MONEY IN PERFECTING THE BREED....BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW TO PUT ON A BANDAID DOES NOT MAKE YOU A DOCTOR.


Thank you for this post. I am constantly amazed at the number of GSDs in shelters. It makes me sick.


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## sagelfn

Without doing any testing how do you know he is perfect? 



> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


As someone already mentioned he is only 14 months old and not yet mentally & physically mature. 

I hope you take the time to do it right if you are still set on breeding him just once. If he is just perfect to you there's nothing wrong with that just don't breed him.


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## Liesje

Not a good photo for critique but I think he looks very healthy and fit with nice bone. I would be careful about overworking the joints at this age, especially with a larger dog and heavier bone. If he's truly running 15 miles a day I'd maybe take a chunk of that time and focus on training and mental stimulation (which can be just as exhausting for a GSD) than hard exercise. The joints need to form properly without being overworked.


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## Lora

What happens if you find a breeder that agrees to use Kai as a stud the puppies arrive and you are given pick of the litter. You make your pick and as the puppy grows he/she is nothing like Kai and has a personality that is not what you all were looking for. You don't always get the temperment and so forth you are hoping for from a puppy regardless of the parents. BTW IMO your Kai looks alot like my Brewski not that the really comes into the topic here unless I felt I should breed him. 

On another note how many on here non breeders think their GSD has the makings of good sire? How many of you have had someone say "what a great looking GSD I'd like a puppy like hiim/her?" I know I have got a lot since getting Brewsk and no he will not be bred. (was into breeding years ago, to much responsibility and work and time )


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## Cassidy's Mom

Lora said:


> How many of you have had someone say "what a great looking GSD I'd like a puppy like him/her?"


ALL the time! Halo was "propositioned" when she was only 7 or 8 months old. We got asked about Dena & Keefer (who were half siblings) on a routine basis - are we breeders, are we going to breed them, have they been spayed/neutered. No, no, and yes.  "What a shame!"


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## Lin

I get that all the time. Recently I was told by some neighbors that it was "a shame" that both my dogs are female, because they wanted a puppy and my dogs are so gorgeous and well behaved. So I said you know what? They're both rescue dogs and there are so many great GSDs in rescues right now... but nope, they don't want no leftovers rescue dogs. Especially because they want a puppy to "raise up right" and no, weren't interested in hearing that rescues have puppies.


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## onyx'girl

Lin, the neighbors were really commenting on how well you train your rescues...even though they don't know that! It comes down to training/handling when people see well behaved dogs, they think it is the dog when it is really all that time consuming training that makes the dog shine.


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## Holmeshx2

Lin said:


> I get that all the time. Recently I was told by some neighbors that it was "a shame" that both my dogs are female, because they wanted a puppy and my dogs are so gorgeous and well behaved. So I said you know what? They're both rescue dogs and there are so many great GSDs in rescues right now... but nope, they don't want no leftovers rescue dogs. Especially because they *want a puppy to "raise up right"* and no, weren't interested in hearing that rescues have puppies.


Ok this part made me have to post. First thank you for telling them about rescue but I absolutely HATE this response when people give it. They are **** bent on doing everything wrong. They are completely against rescue will absolutely NOT pay for a reputable breeder so they want to spend $100-200 on a BYB puppy and are completely set in their ways because "they want to raise it right" but these are the same exact people who 99% of the time do absolutely no training with the dog heck even do about a 75% job at potty training leave the dog outside all day by themselves etc.. but had to have the puppy to "raise it right"

I'm all for rescue and all for responsible breeders I used to do foster work still help volunteer with rescues and am in the dreaded wait for a puppy from a very responsible breeder. Anyways I digress...

Back to the OP I'm sure your dog is great and yes the CGC is just a certificate he may be able to pass with flying colors however its the fact that its a test and gives you a paper telling the owner of the female that he has those capabilities and that goes with all the titles BTW and no a CGC does not prove breed worthiness by any means. Best way I can put it is like someone going for a job that SAYS they can do everything the job requires but they never went to school never took any tests that showed they actually knew what was required and had the diploma or whatever to show the employer and give the employer ease of mind knowing the person actually knew their stuff not just taking their word for it. 

Also you have had a few breeders already tell you what you need to do and you just ignored it because it wasn't what you wanted to hear you rather would choose to make excuses as to why you can't or wont do it. For the record Chris gave you excellent very impartial advice and she is extremely reputable and responsible with AMAZING females and she does go elsewhere for stud dogs so she would "potentially" be one of those people looking for your male and telling you what she looks for in her males and you didn't bother listning. She also has like 9 dogs of her own has litters of pups on the ground raising them (can you imagine 9 of your own and like 10 puppies running around) she still trains and titles ALL of her dogs and both her and her husband work full time really no reason not to have the time to do it you make time for the things that matter to you.


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## Lin

So true, thanks  I need to focus on that side of things. A few years back a friend of mine adopted a shepherd mix, and then after tons of calls saying this was wrong or that and me telling him what to do (even offering to foster him for a bit to see the issue myself) he rehomed the dog. Afterwards, he said to me "I adopted a shepherd because I wanted a dog like Tessa." I replied, "you do realize she didn't come this way, right? That I've put tons of time and money into her training?" The silence spoke volumes. People think GSDs are so smart they train themselves. If only it worked that way!


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## Lin

Holmeshx2 said:


> They are completely against rescue will absolutely NOT pay for a reputable breeder so they want to spend $100-200 on a BYB puppy and are completely set in their ways because "they want to raise it right" but these are the same exact people who 99% of the time do absolutely no training with the dog heck even do about a 75% job at potty training leave the dog outside all day by themselves etc.. but had to have the puppy to "raise it right"


Yep! You pegged them. They also started saying they've been looking for a pup for a while, because all those people in the paper want waaay too much for them. They don't even want to pay a BYB fee! They have a dog right now they let run loose. The fenced area is really tiny, and I was talking to my landlord one day about all the loose dogs in the area and he mentioned they frequently let him out of the yard to just run around.


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## Holmeshx2

onyx'girl said:


> Lin, the neighbors were really commenting on how well you train your rescues...even though they don't know that! It comes down to training/handling when people see well behaved dogs, they think it is the dog when it is really all that time consuming training that makes the dog shine.


Figured this needed to be repeated. People always want a dog "just like yours" when its well trained but don't want what is required to train in then get mad and figure they dog "a dud" because theirs is nothing like yours. Exactly the reason I don't even bother telling most people who my breeder is because most people just want a BYB dog and even if they did bother contacting my breeder they would be a waste of time basically because I know they have no intentions of training let alone the money that goes into a well bred dog so no reason to waste my breeders time with people who aren't serious.


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## Holmeshx2

Lin said:


> Yep! You pegged them. They also started saying they've been looking for a pup for a while, because all those people in the paper want waaay too much for them. *They don't even want to pay a BYB fee*! They have a dog right now they let run loose. The fenced area is really tiny, and I was talking to my landlord one day about all the loose dogs in the area and he mentioned they frequently let him out of the yard to just run around.


Was going to say that but skipped over it pretty funny you mentioned it. You always hear I've been looking for so long and that $300 in the paper is just too high which then is normally the same reason you get when they can't afford to spend $100 on a spay/neuter fee and their dog has the "oops litters" and can't afford to spent $10 on the bag of their junk food and need someone to PLEASE help feed their dog just until payday etc... ok ending rant now lol.


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## onyx'girl

I would not recommend my boy's breeder either, unless I knew the person would be someone the breeder was ok with even screening. Very few people I'd even recommend a GSD to. I've talked more out of one than into, because this breed needs more than the average JQP owner.


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## Mrs.K

Oooh don't even get me started on loose dogs. They are EVERYWHERE around here. 

I was asked so many times why I wouldn't breed Yukon since he is soooo gorgeous. He is gorgeous and has a great Pedigree and my dad would love to see a litter out of him if I can get him titled but why? Why should I contribute to all those dogs in the Shelter and more dogs while there are thousands of thousands of breeders already out there "trying to improve" the breed. 

Yeah, all my dogs, except Zenzy are intact. I have no fence yet but I am out there with them, they are supervised at all times and believe me, I will NOT have an oops litter or breed just because I have two great, intact dogs, that would make a perfect fit from the pedigree. 
Even though Yukon has Gildo in the third Generation and it would be an extremely interesting and tempting litter... I simply can't justify it. I can't... I've been trying to find a reason and justification to have a litter with the two one day and I can't find a reason why the heck I should bring more dogs into this world while there are thousands of dogs in the shelters. 

Yeah, they would make high drive, top-notch working dogs but who knows me? Who would buy the dogs? The police will not knock on my door and the military won't either... maybe I could place one or two pups in SAR but who would buy the rest of the litter? I am a no-name. Nobody knows me. Maybe from the internet but then they also know what Yukon has been through and that he's not titled and that alone will scare them off. 

So who would actually want to buy the pups? You know how many people say they'd buy a pup and then back out of the deal? They say that now but wait until your litter is there and see how many of those people really buy your pups. I bet you that not one of them will spend the money. It's human nature. 

It's like with a birthday... "Oh sure, we'll be there..." and when the day has come nobody shows up!


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## lizzyjo

I belive that the german shepherd dog's heart is only surpassed by the german shepherd dog owner....just a thought....


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## trudy

Since you have such a knowledgable family member it is odd you have had to ask about several things, like finding a girl to breed to. If he/she is unable to refer you to their multitude of German Shepherd friends and breeders and trainers I am shocked. Most of us have ore GS people friended on facebook and as face to face friends, we all tend to gravitate to them. 

I have also been approached tons of times to use my male for stud and I refer them to his breeder or a list of other reputable breeders. My dog is also perfect!!!! There are thousands of perfect dogs, and if you feel that way look on line and in other places for meetings/training places where German Shepherds will be. 

Get some real opinions. Maybe you do have the next best thing to chocolate milk, BUT unless he is shown and trialed no one will know or use him, I think more great dogs live at homes where they are loved than ever hits the show/training/competitive circuit. If you want a second dog, finish training this one, trial him, let him mature, then go to another respected breeder, maybe they will use your dog or sell you one from their lines but you will know more and your pup will have matured and shown his strengths and weaknesses by then, Good luck and keep loving him, and remember to check those hips/elbows, adn other hereditary things.


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## Lora

I don't think he was/is looking for a second GSD, rather it is a family member that want a GSD just like his! "I'd really like one if his/her pups or I'd really like a puppy just like him/her". You know the syndrome of your GSD is so well behaved, so friendly, so big, so pretty, I want one, then it goes oh crud this one is nothing like so and so's!


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## Whiteshepherds

I don't know about the rest of you but I wasn't born with a compartment in my brain that contained everything there is to know about GSD's, breeding, training etc. 
I do know this...... When someone asks a legitimate question, the fastest way to lose their respect or to have them leave before you can point them in the right direction is to ridicule them or to make them feel stupid.

The poster deserves at least as much courtesy as he's showing everyone else on the forum. People who don't know everything to know about the breed or breeding aren't ignorant, they're uninformed. Big difference.


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## Lora

To breed or not to breed is a decision only you can make. All any of can hope for is that you make a well informed decision. Hopefully when someone makes the decision to breed, they already know there are definate homes for the little ones! Again the decision is yours, please take the info in each post considerate carefully, then decide if it is right for you and your GSD! Good luck!


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## Good_Karma

Whiteshepherds said:


> I don't know about the rest of you but I wasn't born with a compartment in my brain that contained everything there is to know about GSD's, breeding, training etc.
> I do know this...... When someone asks a legitimate question, the fastest way to lose their respect or to have them leave before you can point them in the right direction is to ridicule them or to make them feel stupid.
> 
> The poster deserves at least as much courtesy as he's showing everyone else on the forum. People who don't know everything to know about the breed or breeding aren't ignorant, they're uninformed. Big difference.


Excellent post, bravo!:thumbup: I agree, the OP has been very courteous in this discussion.


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## GSDElsa

Don't make excuses and get your dog out there and campaign him appropriately. Do the health testing and then people will welcome you as a "reputable breeder" (even if it's only one time).

You say you are a perfectionist and won't accept anything less than breeding him to the perfect female. Why would the owner of a bitch expect anything less from a stud? Your desire to find the perfect female but not put real work into your dog is a very hypocritical statement, IMO.


----------



## ZebsMommy

selzer said:


> Or, forget all the above, put an ad in the personal column, Looking for AKC German Shepherd Bitch, so my dog can sire a litter. Would like bitch to be sable coloring, but other colors might be Black, or blue, or liver, or black and tan. Will provide stud for a puppy only. Call 8675 3 0 9, or leave a message on the wall...
> 
> Don't hold your breath.


:rofl:


----------



## Mrs.K

trudy said:


> Since you have such a knowledgable family member it is odd you have had to ask about several things, like finding a girl to breed to. If he/she is unable to refer you to their multitude of German Shepherd friends and breeders and trainers I am shocked. Most of us have ore GS people friended on facebook and as face to face friends, we all tend to gravitate to them.
> 
> I have also been approached tons of times to use my male for stud and I refer them to his breeder or a list of other reputable breeders. My dog is also perfect!!!! There are thousands of perfect dogs, and if you feel that way look on line and in other places for meetings/training places where German Shepherds will be.
> 
> Get some real opinions. Maybe you do have the next best thing to chocolate milk, BUT unless he is shown and trialed no one will know or use him, I think more great dogs live at homes where they are loved than ever hits the show/training/competitive circuit. If you want a second dog, finish training this one, trial him, let him mature, then go to another respected breeder, maybe they will use your dog or sell you one from their lines but you will know more and your pup will have matured and shown his strengths and weaknesses by then, Good luck and keep loving him, and remember to check those hips/elbows, adn other hereditary things.



Even if the dog is shown, it takes years of building a reputation for the dog and a couple of shows won't cut it. 

How many SchH3 V dogs are out there that are unknown or nobody won't breed even though they successfully went through the SchH3 for 10 plus times... there are too many dogs on the market. Too many dogs available and there is always a dog that will be better than yours.


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## Zoeys mom

I think I am torn on this. If someone gets their dog from a reputable breeder, titles the dog, does all the appropriate health testing, the dog has an impeccable temperament, and a mate of the same caliber is found what is the issue? Sure there are already some amazing dogs out there being bred, and some not so amazing ones. There is no shortage of GSD's, and the probability that anyone's dog has something out there to add that is not already available is slim, but using this method no one should be breeding then. 

Breeders should breed for a purpose and to better the breed, but how do you define who's purpose is worthy and who's isn't? Some are looking for great defense drives or social drives, all of us want solid nerves and even temperament, some focus on conformation, other's on working ability, and we all know when looking at working ability buyers are looking for very different but specific traits all found by pairing different dogs together to get what that breeders thinks will be the total dog. 

I'm not saying the OP should breed his male and from what I've read believe he has a lot of research to do before even considering becoming a breeder, but I often wonder how one really knows they have 2 dogs who should breed when looking at all the compnents that go into breeding


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## Cassidy's Mom

Zoeys mom said:


> I think I am torn on this. If someone gets their dog from a reputable breeder, *titles the dog, does all the appropriate health testing*, the dog has an impeccable temperament, and a mate of the same caliber is found what is the issue?


He's already said he's not going to do all that stuff. :shrug:


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## wolfstraum

Mrs.K said:


> Even if the dog is shown, it takes years of building a reputation for the dog and a couple of shows won't cut it.
> 
> How many SchH3 V dogs are out there that are unknown or nobody won't breed even though they successfully went through the SchH3 for 10 plus times... there are too many dogs on the market. Too many dogs available and there is always a dog that will be better than yours.


And that coming from someone who grew up in the sport in Germany !!!! 

Here it is similar - most people breed within their club/group/friends as well....everyone has a male who trains/competes and many many many males never get used at stud because there are just so many males. At one club, we had at least a half dozen titled males, and I had the only breedable female - one owner came to me with not only his dog's pedigree but the semen evaluation he had done by Dr Hutchinson, fully expecting that I would breed my female to the dog because of who had the dog in Germany - another had a very well known BSP male and he called me over and over trying to get me to breed to the dog with either of my titled females that he had seen work a few times (Kyra and Fenja). I get calls from owners of males all over the US who want me to use their male and they don't want a stud fee - they will breed "for free - just for a puppy"

People with females control what males get used, and unfortunately only a small percentage of breeders go outside their own circle for a male...many clubs are filled with progeny of the trainers dogs, and if a prospective/member shows up with a dog from elsewhere, there can be hard feelings! Talk to my friend down south about his reception with an imported pup at a club where there was a breeder with a litter!! And without that captive market, it is difficult to sell pups to working homes no matter how good the pedigree! 

BTW Mrs. K - if your father was breeder of the litter from your male - with his kennel name - I think it would be marketable....

Lee


----------



## Mrs.K

wolfstraum said:


> And that coming from someone who grew up in the sport in Germany !!!!
> 
> Here it is similar - most people breed within their club/group/friends as well....everyone has a male who trains/competes and many many many males never get used at stud because there are just so many males. At one club, we had at least a half dozen titled males, and I had the only breedable female - one owner came to me with not only his dog's pedigree but the semen evaluation he had done by Dr Hutchinson, fully expecting that I would breed my female to the dog because of who had the dog in Germany - another had a very well known BSP male and he called me over and over trying to get me to breed to the dog with either of my titled females that he had seen work a few times (Kyra and Fenja). I get calls from owners of males all over the US who want me to use their male and they don't want a stud fee - they will breed "for free - just for a puppy"
> 
> People with females control what males get used, and unfortunately only a small percentage of breeders go outside their own circle for a male...many clubs are filled with progeny of the trainers dogs, and if a prospective/member shows up with a dog from elsewhere, there can be hard feelings! Talk to my friend down south about his reception with an imported pup at a club where there was a breeder with a litter!! And without that captive market, it is difficult to sell pups to working homes no matter how good the pedigree!
> 
> BTW Mrs. K - if your father was breeder of the litter from your male - with his kennel name - I think it would be marketable....
> 
> Lee


I am pretty sure it would be marketable with the reputation of his kennel name but only because of that and not because of me. Take that name away and all you have is a shell. 
He's a gorgeous dog. Stocky, great coloring and pigmentation. I could probably sell to the average joey but would that make me a reputable breeder or a BYB?

My dogs are healthy, de-wormed, get their shots, are in the family, I train them but have not one of them titled. 

I know that he would have turned out totally different if he did not end up with that guy who ruined him. 
Greg Doud saw him yesterday and said that it is a great rehabilitation dog. With his Pedigree it's a shame that he can't be bred but I see it that way. There are many other great dogs with great Pedigrees out there. The only reason why he is so interesting is because of all the names in his Pedigree. 
Neumann's Janko, Fero, Gildo in the third Generation, Bojar de Lupis Fidis, Harro aus der Lechrainstadt, Anja von der Schaeferhuette and Caro vom Allerswald in the fourth Generation. 

It's a shame but would it make me any different? I know he'd pass on the Genes but I would be no different than the OP since my dogs are not titled. Over here it may not be a big of a deal as in Germany... but if i did it. I'd be a BYB too, even though they are very well cared for.


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## wolfstraum

Mrs.K said:


> I am pretty sure it would be marketable with the reputation of his kennel name but only because of that and not because of me. Take that name away and all you have is a shell.
> He's a gorgeous dog. Stocky, great coloring and pigmentation. I could probably sell to the average joey but would that make me a reputable breeder or a BYB?
> 
> My dogs are healthy, de-wormed, get their shots, are in the family, I train them but have not one of them titled.
> 
> I know that he would have turned out totally different if he did not end up with that guy who ruined him.
> Greg Doud saw him yesterday and said that it is a great rehabilitation dog. With his Pedigree it's a shame that he can't be bred but I see it that way. There are many other great dogs with great Pedigrees out there. The only reason why he is so interesting is because of all the names in his Pedigree.
> Neumann's Janko, Fero, Gildo in the third Generation, Bojar de Lupis Fidis, Harro aus der Lechrainstadt, Anja von der Schaeferhuette and Caro vom Allerswald in the fourth Generation.
> 
> It's a shame but would it make me any different? I know he'd pass on the Genes but I would be no different than the OP since my dogs are not titled. Over here it may not be a big of a deal as in Germany... but if i did it. I'd be a BYB too, even though they are very well cared for.


ahh - I should have qualified my comment - once he was titled and koered!!! I KNOW you respect the system enough that the dog would not be used without that.....

and yes - every dog you look at has a great pedigree - LOL no one breeds dogs with bad pedigrees - bad dogs with great pedigrees all the time though!

Lee


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## Lin

I have a question... You mentioned dogs in the fourth generation being great, how important is that? In horses, those in the fourth generation mean nothing... Those with famous names back there are a dime a dozen, and its all about who the parents and grandparents are.


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## Mrs.K

With dogs it still matters. You always want to know who is in the second, third and fourth generation because the traits still come through. 

It is very important to know who is in there and if you know what these dogs were like, were they stable and sound, a bit on the nervy side, completely borderline, dirty... if you know that, you know what to expect and what you don't want in your Pedigree


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## wolfstraum

Lin said:


> I have a question... You mentioned dogs in the fourth generation being great, how important is that? In horses, those in the fourth generation mean nothing... Those with famous names back there are a dime a dozen, and its all about who the parents and grandparents are.


ee

I do not agree that this is not true!!! Maybe for marketing quarter horses or something....but in TBs pedigree analysis is done back and back and back! female families, dosage index etc....read some of the analysis' published weekly by the Blood Horse - very very interesting - Yes, colts by THE big name stallion will bring the most money at the sales - but even the lesser priced yearlings will have buyers based on 4th, 5th generation, breeding nicks, dosage etc....


In dogs, it is not just line breeding but back massing to watch and make decisions regarding matings. Dogs in the 10th generation can affect puppies adversely! 

Lee


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## Dainerra

I think that Lin means that there has to be something worthwhile in the previous bloodlines, not just way back there.

A TB whose great-great-grandfather was Secretariat doesn't mean much if his recent pedigree is all "also ran" and "never ran" horses.


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## mockbam5

Cassidy's Mom said:


> He's already said he's not going to do all that stuff. :shrug:


I said, I do not have time to make my dog SCHH3. I will have every aspect of his health checked and I will have him certified for CGC and other titles too! This makes me frustrated!


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## mockbam5

Zoeys mom said:


> I think I am torn on this. If someone gets their dog from a reputable breeder, titles the dog, does all the appropriate health testing, the dog has an impeccable temperament, and a mate of the same caliber is found what is the issue? Sure there are already some amazing dogs out there being bred, and some not so amazing ones. There is no shortage of GSD's, and the probability that anyone's dog has something out there to add that is not already available is slim, but using this method no one should be breeding then.
> 
> Breeders should breed for a purpose and to better the breed, but how do you define who's purpose is worthy and who's isn't? Some are looking for great defense drives or social drives, all of us want solid nerves and even temperament, some focus on conformation, other's on working ability, and we all know when looking at working ability buyers are looking for very different but specific traits all found by pairing different dogs together to get what that breeders thinks will be the total dog.
> 
> I'm not saying the OP should breed his male and from what I've read believe he has a lot of research to do before even considering becoming a breeder, but I often wonder how one really knows they have 2 dogs who should breed when looking at all the compnents that go into breeding



Thank you.


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## Jax08

Can I just say, in regards to breeding, that the CGC means NOTHING. It means your dog knows basic obedience. It does not mean that your dog is breed worthy. If you are going to breed your dog then you should have upper level titles, not novice, and have a temperament test done that tests that the dog German Shepherd Breed temperament...not a Poodle, a Golden Retriever, a Boxer...A German Shepherd. 

And without titles, testing, trials, health clearances, no reputable breeder will want anything to do with you...so that would make you a BYB. If you don't have the time to do trial your dog then you do not have the necessary desire to breed your dog. I hope you do much more research into what makes a breed worthy dog. 

Because, I am tired of getting phone calls that say, "We have Shepherd here. You have until Monday to find a rescue or we'll have to euthanize because we're full and have no open kennels."


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## GSDElsa

mockbam5 said:


> I said, I do not have time to make my dog SCHH3. I will have every aspect of his health checked and I will have him certified for CGC and other titles too! This makes me frustrated!


Actually, you've specifically said you don't have "time" to work on "ring skills," "sports," and "Schultz" (misspelled purposely since that's how you write it). 

The only mention of titles in which you said you'd get them is saying he can easily get a CGC.

What titles, exactly, are you talking about? CGC is not a title.


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## Lin

Dainerra said:


> I think that Lin means that there has to be something worthwhile in the previous bloodlines, not just way back there.
> 
> A TB whose great-great-grandfather was Secretariat doesn't mean much if his recent pedigree is all "also ran" and "never ran" horses.


Yes, thats more of what I was addressing. And referring mostly to TBs since thats where my experience is! With all the TB racehorses, those with Native Dancer for example are a dime a dozen. My mare had him in her pedigree but it didn't mean anything. However her grandsire was a pretty well known racer in Indiana.


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## wolfstraum

read the pedigree analysis column in Blood Horse on line - you will be surprised how in depth pedigrees are analyzed... 

As far as Secretariat - he was a dud in the breeding shed in truth....and so was Spectacular Bid - I bred to Bid - got a gorgeous gray dink....mean tempered as a foal...parrot mouthed ....Graustark granddaughter too....

Yes there are as many TBs with Native Dancer/Northern Dancer as there are GSDs with Fero - does not mean they are all winners - lots of dinks in both....

Certain sons carry more weight for sure....

Back to topic!

The bottom line is that the OP has no intention of working/titling-Koering this dog - he knows it is perfect - well - I think my dog is perfect and is better than any VA dog! And no one can tell me different coz I KNOW!!! 

The quest for a perfect female is the key - will anyone with a high V titled perfect female want to breed to him????? I think we can all figure that out....

Show line pedigrees are so closely related - if your family member wants one like Kai - I am sure one can be found for him without producing a BY litter...

Lee


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## Barb E

wolfstraum said:


> As far as Secretariat - he was a dud in the breeding shed in truth....
> 
> Lee


Still breaks my heart that this is so, I:wub:ed Secretariat


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## Andaka

Well, when you are that great, where do you find mares to breed him to?

It was also thought that he was a fluke.

But I loved the big guy too. I did my senior term paper on Bold Ruler.


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## Mrs.K

Barb E said:


> Still breaks my heart that this is so, I:wub:ed Secretariat


I am not surprised though. A lot of great studs are not used for various reasons, while they are alive and once they are gone, everybody realizes "Crap, maybe we should have used his genes a little more than we did."

Same thing happened to a great working dog. He was badmouthed by his very own breeder because he was jealous and once he was gone, everybody wanted his pups.


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## Mrs.K

By the way, another thing to consider as a breeder is how you keep your buyers. I bought two dogs from the same breeder because I felt that he loves his dogs. I even have him on my facebook page now and within two days he made a lot of comments on Judge. 

I love my breeder for that. That he is interested in his pups and loves to see pics. Even if it is pictures of them fooling around, he loves to see how they grow and what they turn out to be. 

Because he loved hearing about Indra, I went back and got another one because I knew he cares. People want a breeder where they can go to with their questions and where they feel safe. 

I would not want to buy a dog from a breeder that knows nothing about the breed. They more you know, they more interest you show in your buyers and they more you care about what you do even if you do it for profit, they more comfortable people feel buying from you. 

I know for certain that if one of them ended up with HD or something else happened to them, I'd go back to Horst and buy another pup from him because he's already proven himself as the trustworthy and caring breeder he is. 

And that is something a breeder has to accomplish. With all the other resources out there I wouldn't have to go back but I chose to and once you have buyers that chose to come back to you... than you really are a reputable & trustworthy breeder.


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## wolfstraum

Andaka said:


> Well, when you are that great, where do you find mares to breed him to?
> 
> It was also thought that he was a fluke.
> 
> But I loved the big guy too. I did my senior term paper on Bold Ruler.



Now HE was a great sire! My Special 's sire was Four Ten - and his dam was a full sister to Bold Ruler....

as far as the mares - both Secretariat and Bid were on the Broodmare sires List for years and years - the FEMALE families of the wonderful mares bred to them carried through as producers - they WERE bred to wonderful mares when they went to stud - and many many unraced or low achieving mares far outperform their race records in the breeding shed - genetics at work...there is much to be learned about breeding dogs from studying TB breeding as it is done with the goal of pure athletic achievement (running races) - or performance....female families are really the key...

Lee


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## Mrs.K

wolfstraum said:


> Now HE was a great sire! My Special 's sire was Four Ten - and his dam was a full sister to Bold Ruler....
> 
> as far as the mares - both Secretariat and Bid were on the Broodmare sires List for years and years - the FEMALE families of the wonderful mares bred to them carried through as producers - they WERE bred to wonderful mares when they went to stud - and many many unraced or low achieving mares far outperform their race records in the breeding shed - genetics at work...there is much to be learned about breeding dogs from studying TB breeding as it is done with the goal of pure athletic achievement (running races) - or performance....female families are really the key...
> 
> Lee


that is very true. 

My dad literally studies the sire-books and the history of the pedigrees. He used to do the same with the dogs. He sat hours over hours in the office, studying pedigrees to put together the links and what he knows to get the right connections which is one of the reason why they were so successful with breeding dogs. 

If there is anyone out there who really knows pedigrees it's my dad. When I showed him Indra and her pedigree he told me exactly what to expect and watch out for and he's been right with every word he said. 

To know a breed you need to know it's history and that includes the pedigrees and that one really studies the pedigrees. The pedigrees play a huge factor, especially with the females. 

if things go wrong, it's the female that is going to be blamed. It's always the female. If things go right, it's always the male that gets all the credit but in the end, it's the female that plays a huge part as well. They pass on genes just like males do. People just don't give them enough credit.


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## Lilie

mockbam5 said:


> I said, I do not have time to make my dog SCHH3. I will have every aspect of his health checked and I will have him certified for CGC and other titles too! This makes me frustrated!


Mockbam, I can certainly understand you having a great deal of love and loyalty towards your boy. I can also follow thought process as to really wanting to share with others the love, joy and pride that your boy has given you and your family. 

What I'd like for you to do, for a second, is consider this; if you truly feel that your boy is exceptional, and would truly benefit the GSD bloodlines for generations to come, wouldn't you consider placing him in the show ring? Get him out there where professional breeders can see him - where his potential can really be utilized? If he truly is as good as you (and as you stated, others) think he could be, put him out there for others to see as well. 

If you were to bred him to an unworthy bitch, then all of the faults of the following generations will all point back to your boy. Consider this..please.


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## wolfstraum

Mockbam - do some research on the numbers of GSDs in teh US - 2nd highest number of AKC registrations in 2010 - and the heartbreaking numbers of dogs in pounds, shelters, rescues - there is not a day goes by that I don't see heartbreaking stories of dogs rescued from abominable circumstances - and my donation allowance for 2011 is already committed to an atrociously abused dog...if there were more selective breeding to high standards - and I am not saying anything negative at all about your dog - but that breeding is just too easy here in the US - that so many people do it for the wrong reasons - that just thinking your dog is perfect and wonderful does not make it breedworthy - nor are most dogs being bred breedworthy - but there is no criteria here, no reprecussions for breeding dogs without going through stringent protocals before hand - and that is why we as a nation kill so many helpless innocent animals every day! Yes, I breed - but very very selectively - and with animals certified to the SV standards - I have a Schh3 male that people ask to use all the time for stud - but I know - even though Sch3, KKL, CD, CGC - he is not a terrific choice for breeding - do I love him? Do I wish I had another one very much (but not completely!!!) like him??? A resounding YES! And I know what I like and where that comes from and will have another similar (a paternal niece/nephew) but I would not breed him (one test litter and it told me enough knowing his family) - there is no reason to breed HIM!!! I know I can get something carrying his sire's good points - have one 'niece' already....I think he has some exceptional qualities - but I have them in a better package in his paternal half sister!

Lee


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## agreen

*2 yr old female*

Advertising for breeding purposes is not allowed here. Why not post some info about yourself and your dog in the Welcome section.? Daphne -- Mod


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## selzer

agreen said:


> See Above.


When you joined, you signed something having to do with board rules/regulations. You need to check them out again. We are not a site where we advertise our pups for sale, nor is it within the regulations to advertise your dog or bitch for breeding purposes.


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## onyx'girl

That google search must be very active lately for people looking to breed their dogs....what a great way to find a perfect match


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## sagelfn

Its summer, everyone wants puppies now 

I have a friend at the local shelter, by Friday they will have 30 puppies under 6wks old...


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## Freestep

mockbam5 said:


> I am a perfectionist and I would like a perfect bitch, and if it takes effort to make a perfect match that's what it will take.


If your male doesn't have an OFA number and titles, no one who owns the "perfect" bitch will even look at your dog. The only people who will want to breed to your dog will be backyard breeders themselves. And then you'll be one, too. Your dog should do better than that.

Your boy is very handsome, and if he has the "perfect" temperament as you say, get him out there and show him, get titles on him, PROVE to the world just how perfect he is!

Then educate yourself about his bloodlines. Learn everything you can about his pedigree and know how his lines would combine with others.

THEN, after all these things are done, you can start thinking about breeding him to the perfect bitch, because only then will the bitches' owners start to take you seriously.


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## Catu

My first advice would be: read the same thread you posted in.


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## Germanshepherdlova

sagelfn said:


> Its summer, everyone wants puppies now
> 
> I have a friend at the local shelter, by Friday they will have 30 puppies under 6wks old...


:thumbup:


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## GsdLoverr729

I don't know if you are supposed to put your email on here. I do know that you do not have to post twice and are not supposed to repeat posts. 
Does your female have titles? A good pedigree? Hips/elbow evaluations? Why do you want to breed her? What does she have to offer to the breed? What lines is she? How do you define perfect temperament?


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## Kaity

Why not just find a really good breeder to match you with a puppy once yours grows up? Or get another one from the litter if it's going to happen again down the line? At 14 months.. I wouldn't even be THINKING about another PUPPY, much less breeding my PUPPY. You just want pick of the litter? What happens to the rest of the litter, I hope you know breeding your dog doesn't exactly mean _cloning_ your dog.. if that's what you're going for. Pretty stupid reason to breed.


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## selzer

This is soliciting and not allowed on this site I think.


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## jaggirl47

selzer said:


> This is soliciting and not allowed on this site I think.


 
This post is also from January 2011.  The OP is probably long gone.


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## GsdLoverr729

jaggirl47 said:


> This post is also from January 2011.  The OP is probably long gone.


It came back alive due to the two posts above mine. Cali is looking to breed her female.


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## selzer

That is the one I notified on, it was made today. She is offering to swap a pup for a stud service.


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## GsdLoverr729

^ Yuppp


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## jaggirl47

GsdLoverr729 said:


> It came back alive due to the two posts above mine. Cali is looking to breed her female.


 
Yes, I know Cali is looking to breed her female.  However, it is ok to write that the post is extremely old so she doesn't think anything will come from it.


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## GsdLoverr729

Didn't even think about that. xD


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## Anna_Johnson595

I have a female I would love to breed. She's 2 and solid white. I'd like to find her a suitable mate before her heat is over.


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## JakodaCD OA

the original post is 3 years old.


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## Castlemaid

Please read board rules - this forum is not a vehicle for advertising or soliciting studs.


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