# Byb



## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

At what point does a person become a BYB. 

What if a person, knowingly breeds their two dogs at a mature age and sells two of the pups. The rest are for family and friends who requested a pup based on how good looking, behaved the parents were. 

Now in the same aspect, a person breeds their dogs to sell each pup for $500 on a site like craigslist. Out of 7 pups, that is $3,500 cash, minus vet bills. 

What if same person sells them for $150 a pup? $75? Does this sound like a byb or a mistake, or possibly pups for family friends, the last few sold to good homes?

How much does each pup cost from birth to 8 weeks? 


I'm just trying to get an understanding here.. To me a byb is someone who breeds for profit.. I don't know the true cost of raising a pup from birth to 8 weeks but anything less than $150 doesn't seem like much profit..?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

As far as I'm concerned, a byb is anyone who breeds "family pets." If the dogs aren't hip/elbow certified and titled in _something_ to prove nerve and temperament, then that person is more concerned with producing cute puppies or making a profit than they are with the health and temperament of the dogs they produce.

They may do it out of ignorance (they honestly don't know about hip and elbow certs, they've never heard of obedience/agility/schutzhund trials) or they may do it out of greed, but they're still producing cheap animals for the pet market and are backyard breeders. I don't care if they're charging $25 or $2500. 

If family and friends want a dog like mine, they can go to my breeder.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a byb is anyone who breeds "family pets." If the dogs aren't hip/elbow certified and titled in _something_ to prove nerve and temperament...
> 
> If family and friends want a dog like mine, they can go to my breeder.


Agree 100%

A "real" breeder is someone breeding to better the breed and is fully aware of bloodlines and pros and cons of certain matches. 

A byb breeds their female to the male next door b/c the puppies will be cute. 

I don't care about making a profit or not - it's the intent behind. If you're not bettering - don't do it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Profit has NOTHING to do with it. 

A BYB is any breeder who is not a reputable breeder, a puppy mill is the worst type of BYB, with many dogs, terrible conditions, etc.

A reputable breeder breeds dogs and may profit by it, but they have a goal. They are breeding dogs to the standard or for specific type of work. They hold back puppies and use them in their breeding program. They are breeding toward an ideal shepherd. They are breeding to maintain the breed. 

Reputable breeders make their decisions on who to breed and to whom to breed their bitch, by considering temperament, conformation, genetics, health histories, and blood lines. They experiment and reject some of their choices. 

Reputable breeders offer buyers support and experience, and will take back a dog if it becomes necessary.

Reputable breeders train and trial or show their dogs, stay up to date with dog affairs, and work hard to preserve dog ownership. 

Not all of them are able to cover every base, but they should cover most of them.

Everyone else is a BYB, putting together dogs for convenience, to make a few bucks, for their female to have just one litter so they can keep a puppy, because they just love puppies, and those who didn't properly manage their intact dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

To me, a BYB is someone who is not breeding with the intent to make the breed better. 

Two purebred AKC dogs are not enough to prove breeding worth. 

A dog who is proven they can work (titles), are health tested, are temperament tested (titles), has a strong pedigree, and are within the standard is the minimum of what it takes to be considered breed worthy in my opinion.

Anyone who doesn't do all of the above things I mentioned, I would consider as a back yard breeder. By doing all of these things, you are trying to improve the breed. You are trying to produce the best quality dogs possible. 

BYB's usually could care less about trying to better the breed, they're just trying to better their bank account.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Now how much does it cost, to raise one pup from birth to 8 weeks?

Now how about this: everyone has a right to a want. What if you have someone who wants a gsd. However they can't afford $1,500 for a dog. They just want a family pet, who is great with kids, protective, and so on.. They can afford the monthly costs and pet insurance. However they just simply can't come up with $1500 cash for a dog. 

Now should they be denied a dog of their liking because of cost? There are hundreds of thousands of dogs out there, from byb or mistske breeding, mixed and pure that live happy, quality lifes with families. 

So is it quite fair that only the rich can have dogs? To maintain "the breed". Or should there be a balance for good folk who can't afford a huge upfront cost, but want a companion?

I feel byb are a way of life, in a small portion of good. Most however, bad. Bad bad bad. They do give options to good people out there. But I think there are just too many byb out there. Plus a pup pops out 8 pups at a time.. That adds up across the board. It is an out of control problem. But the supply is an option for some. 

What's your thoughts?


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Basically you have Mary Sue Nobody, who has, let's say since we're here, a GSD she got from another BYB. He looks good to her, has what she seems to think is a nice temperament, and believes everyone will want a dog like this and she will make money breeding him. She's not knowledgeable about breeding, so she breeds him at a year old with some random female on craigslist, and sells the pups for a few hundred dollars. They have no shots, no wormings, no certs, just cute faces that will appeal to equally misinformed people perusing the internet. In some cases, the cycle thus continues.

Everyone else already defined what is generally accepted as describing a reputable breeder, and obviously a BYB is the polar opposite, to simplify. They're one of the biggest reasons why our shelters and rescues are overrun with dogs needing homes, and why innocent dogs are being killed by the thousands.\

EDIT: In response to your latest post, many reputable breeders offer less expensive pet quality animals for sale if they arise in their litters. This doesn't mean the dog is "defective," it just may have a few insignificant faults (too light colored eyes, short back, etc.) that casual pet owners won't mind. Additionally, there are always rescues.

My issue with buying a lesser quality dog is this: Even if your GSD ends up costing you 1,200 dollars, it's still the cheapest part of the equation because dogs cost a lot of money to raise for 14 years. Vet bills, toys, food, grooming, etc. Your statement about having money for everything but not the purchase price of the dog is contradictory, therefore. Also, if you bought a lesser quality dog that came from dogs with no certs for hips/elbows, and it develops problems later in life, you're going to end up paying a LOT more than 1,200 dollars to fix it. So, either invest in a better dog whose chances of being healthy are better and you'll know it started out right because it was well bred and well raised by dedicated breeders, or if you can't afford it, rescue or adopt.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What are my thoughts?

If someone cannot come up with 1500 dollars for a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, than maybe they should consider rescuing a dog from a shelter or reputable rescue organization. 

Or, they should adjust their priorities and SAVE UP for the puppy. $1500 is just not that much money for an animal that will be living with you for ten+ years. People see nothing at all wrong with dropping TONS of money into their computers, games, cars, cable, television, and other things that you really do not even need to have, I do not buy it that people are too poor to pay for a dog. 

Dogs should NOT be cheap. There is too much responsibility that is required for pet ownership, but we think that we should be able to pay for our dog with the remains of a week's salary. 

Put away $50 to $100/month and save up for a dog from a reputable breeder, or rescue one from a pound or rescue. Do not feed the monster.


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> At what point does a person become a BYB.


I think the best definition of a BYB is a breeder who is not interested in the quality of the breed as a whole. It doesn't matter how much they charge for a pup -- if they're not engaged in a thoughtful breeding program, screening for temperament and genetic health defects, they're effectively a BYB.


Titling -- that's a more complicated question. Someone can train their dog to an extremely high degree in SCH, obedience, agility, etc, and never bother to actually do the work to get the dog titled. If they're actually objective in judging the dogs and have consistent standards that they employ, titling isn't exactly necessary. However, as it stands, titles are proofs that a dog has reached a certain level of training and maturity, and are thus can be very useful in judging an animals worthiness to be bred. And, because most people can't be trusted to evaluate their animals in an objective and consistent manner, official organizations are the easiest way to cover this base. 

That being said, you'll almost never see a responsible breeder selling pups for a few hundred bucks -- _unless_ they're defective in some way. (F'rex, long-coated, liver, or blue GSDs that've been thrown off in a litter of purebreds.) This is because of the fact that breeding dogs responsibly gets expensive, with low margins due to producing far fewer litters than is technically possible in the same size facility if you didn't care about the animals, vet care, registrations, genetic tests, etc. Plus, of course, the intense investment of -time- into raising breeding dogs and then raising a litter. 

I'm willing to pay a thousand bucks or so for a dog that's probably not going to have some horrible crippling genetic disease that will force me, probably years after I've gotten attached to the dog, to make the decision to either put it down or pony up thousands of dollars in vet bills ... and then maybe having it die or be permanently crippled anyway. It's worth it to get a pup which you know has been properly handled, socialized, etc from birth, and is less likely to cost me hundreds or thousands of dollars in either trainers or damages. It's worth knowing that a dog will likely have certain genetic propensities as far as drive and personality go.

I would -like- to pay $200 for a pup, but nowadays that's like paying $200 for a car: if it drives, you're likely lucky if you manage to get it past an inspection once you get it to a mechanic.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

selzer said:


> What are my thoughts?
> 
> If someone cannot come up with 1500 dollars for a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, than maybe they should consider rescuing a dog from a shelter or reputable rescue organization.
> 
> ...


How about cats? They, like a dog, (typical family) are there as a family pet. They provide all the loving aspects of a dog, minus protection, again considering the type/size of dog. 

So why aren't cats under the same concept? If for a loving family member, factors of background shouldn't matter too much, right? 

This goes on the same lines as you should get a quality dog. Therefor, if I have a child who is flow blown retarded I should drop em off at the local fire station and try again. 

I would think as long as the dog looks, acts, and overall feels to you is just right, nothing else should matter about history or background.. Right?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

my thoughts are...that if every good home that cannot afford $1,500. would adopt from a shelter or rescue, and if every responsible pet owner would spay and neuter, and if all breeders who are not breeding to improve the breed would stop breeding, and if we the people would stop supporting puppy mills and pet stores...

well, i can dream...


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

However good point people. I pretty much agree with all of you.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If you don't have the $1,500 to pay for a dog, should you really be getting another puppy when you already have multiple cats and a puppy to take care of? 

What happens if one of these animals gets sick and you have vet bills to pay? Are you prepared for all of this as well as another puppy?


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

Also, as far as evaluating honest-mistake vs. BYB, you have to remember that it's often wise to charge a fee for a pet if you give half a **** about it. Far too many people consider the initial cost of an animal in whether or not they decide to treat it well, particularly if it needs a vet. I regularly get people looking at me like I grew a third head when I tell them that I've taken a rat to my vet and it cost me a hundred bucks, or that I paid $30 per rat for some other rats I've had when I got them from a rescue organization. (And the fact that I got them from a rescue. And that such things exist for rats.)

So anyway, there's both a bottom line where caring people who would otherwise give an animal away for free will charge just to ensure that the people who want the pup actually want it enough to drop some real money on it. But then again, I'd say that craigslist is, in general, a poor source for such a massive investment as a dog.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> If someone cannot come up with 1500 dollars for a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, than maybe they should consider rescuing a dog from a shelter or reputable rescue organization.
> 
> Or, they should adjust their priorities and SAVE UP for the puppy. $1500 is just not that much money for an animal that will be living with you for ten+ years. People see nothing at all wrong with dropping TONS of money into their computers, games, cars, cable, television, and other things that you really do not even need to have, I do not buy it that people are too poor to pay for a dog.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree with this!! I am not by any means rich - I am single, live in an apartment complex with two dogs and am only a part-time worker who picks up as many shifts as I can to get full time. However, I shelled out $1200 for Madix - he gets all the preventative care and vet care he needs and I also train for Schutzhund, flyball, agility, rally, obedience, tracking etc. 

I have to budget every month and I had to save up ahead of time to buy him. I would LOVE a new computer, a new lens, a DVD player and ****, cable TV but I forgo them b/c I would prefer to work with my dogs. 

In fact, I am rather insulted with the comment that only the rich can buy a dog from a reputable breeder - I am not rich, but it was important to me and I worked hard to get there. I have two BYB dogs - one that pops a tumor about every 2 years and the other with so many health issues I don't care to figure out how much I've spent on vet bills. The fourth dog is a rescue that I rehab'd. Madix has been worth every penny. 

If you can't afford or don't want to save for a dog from a reputable breeder - then rescue. I just transported two gorgeous Dutch mixes that I really liked for the NADSR...


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Wrong. Poor quality animals can be devastating to the wallet AND the heart. I loved my poorly bred Great Dane more than anything in the world. But he had health problems all his life that cost me a small fortune, and he died too young, which broke my heart forever - not to mention, his quality of life suffered as a result. Had he been better bred, he would not have had to endure those ailments. Anyway, if those things like background, health screenings, etc. don't matter to you, as you said, adopt from a rescue.

Animals are not children. We don't choose our children, unless we adopt them. But we have every right to choose and purchase whatever dog we like. Therefore, as with every purchase I make, I will select the best I can find. I do this to avoid long term complications as much as possible.

Cats are also not dogs. Cats are cats, unless you get a weird fancy breed, which can be prone to health and behavior problems. Most cats are just regular American shorthairs, which are relatively healthy and problem free, whether they come from a mansion or a trailer, it doesn't matter because they're almost always the same. It's a completely different thing, I think.

Looking and feeling right aren't enough for a lot of us. I like the comfort in knowing I at least have good breeding and good background on my side, and that I am contributing to not only the preservation of the breed by selecting the best and helping a good breeder, but I am also not helping bad BYBs continue business by putting more unneeded dogs into the world.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> If you don't have the $1,500 to pay for a dog, should you really be getting another puppy when you already have multiple cats and a puppy to take care of?
> 
> What happens if one of these animals gets sick and you have vet bills to pay? Are you prepared for all of this as well as another puppy?


Uhh sounds like you assume this is somehow based on me..?

This is all hypothetical. I personally can afford my, and my pets well-being. No idea where you thought this somehow had to do with me personally...


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

FG167 said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with this!! I am not by any means rich - I am single, live in an apartment complex with two dogs and am only a part-time worker who picks up as many shifts as I can to get full time. However, I shelled out $1200 for Madix - he gets all the preventative care and vet care he needs and I also train for Schutzhund, flyball, agility, rally, obedience, tracking etc.
> 
> I have to budget every month and I had to save up ahead of time to buy him. I would LOVE a new computer, a new lens, a DVD player and ****, cable TV but I forgo them b/c I would prefer to work with my dogs.
> 
> ...


To be fair, I didn't say only the rich can afford dogs. I asked if that was the case. No need to be offended. 

I on the other hand can wake up, and instantly go out and buy what it is I want (within reason). However what you may see as pratcial I may not.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

adamdude04 said:


> Uhh sounds like you assume this is somehow based on me..?
> 
> This is all hypothetical. I personally can afford my, and my pets well-being. No idea where you thought this somehow had to do with me personally...


It's your thread and you've repeatably said that you refuse to pay more than $200 for a pet.  I guess I was assuming it was you that you were talking about. 

I'm also saying it in general though. If you don't have the money to put towards a dog from a reputable breeder (which is usually a lot more than $200) and you already have multiple lives that you're responsible for than maybe you shouldn't be adding more animals to your home. Not just you, but anyone considering adding animals to their home when they already have others.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Exactly, Lucy Dog, and incidentally if anyone ever stumbles on this thread who is considering breeding their so-so dog because they think he's the greatest thing ever, please don't - we have enough of a mess already! Spay and neuter, people!


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Larien said:


> Wrong. Poor quality animals can be devastating to the wallet AND the heart. I loved my poorly bred Great Dane more than anything in the world. But he had health problems all his life that cost me a small fortune, and he died too young, which broke my heart forever - not to mention, his quality of life suffered as a result. Had he been better bred, he would not have had to endure those ailments. Anyway, if those things like background, health screenings, etc. don't matter to you, as you said, adopt from a rescue.
> 
> Animals are not children. We don't choose our children, unless we adopt them. But we have every right to choose and purchase whatever dog we like. Therefore, as with every purchase I make, I will select the best I can find. I do this to avoid long term complications as much as possible.
> 
> ...


How is a cat different from a dog? And not on a physical level either. 

I love both my cats very much. I consider them the same as my pup. However I understand dogs can come out jacked up if bred with a chicken. 

At what point does the dog, a family pet ( still leaving working dogs out of this whole thread) become more important than a cat? When you get a cat, most people pick the one they like best. With the same psychological aspects as they do with dogs. The bonding moment is nearly the same. Each has their own personality..

So I'm having a hard time understanding how a cat is just a cat. But a dog has to be prime, and correct, and expensive for premium dog loving.


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> How about cats? They, like a dog, (typical family) are there as a family pet. They provide all the loving aspects of a dog, minus protection, again considering the type/size of dog.
> 
> So why aren't cats under the same concept? If for a loving family member, factors of background shouldn't matter too much, right?


Well, aside from the fact that cats are, mostly, utterly dissimilar in the ways they provide companionship, there's one thing that cats have going for them: people don't value them as much. Because there hasn't been as much directed breeding by irresponsible people, most cats out there are the result of undirected breeding done mostly by the cats themselves, so recessive traits haven't mostly concentrated in them; they're still developing along evolutionary principles. (Yeah, I know, there certainly are purebreds out there, including retardedly-bred purebreds, but most people who have a cat in the USA just have a cat they got somewhere.) 

Also, you're wrong in that they're regarded similarly to a dog: it's been my experience that, even in a family with little regard for either, the dog tends to get more attention and veterinary care than the cat does, which may see the vet once when it gets purchased, maybe. 

That said, we expect more of dogs. If you get a dog out of a feral litter, it's likely to be a menace, an honest-to-god danger-to-life-and-limb. If you get a cat out of a feral litter, it's likely to be a danger to your limbs, but that's about it. We don't expect cats to be highly trainable. We don't expect cats to be grabbed by children and not bite. We don't expect cats to form the same kind of bond with us that dogs do. We can't afford (literally) dogs that would dart out from cover, take a mouthful of a stranger passing by, and then run off. 



> This goes on the same lines as you should get a quality dog. Therefor, if I have a child who is flow blown retarded I should drop em off at the local fire station and try again.


There are people out there who think this way. Just sayin'. 



> I would think as long as the dog looks, acts, and overall feels to you is just right, nothing else should matter about history or background.. Right?



See my other posts for a reply. Just 'cause a dog looks okay and acts okay now doesn't mean that it will in the future. And if you have high expectations of your dog and what you would like it to do, you want to make sure that it's had the best possible start that can be provided for it in life, since so much of a dog's personality and even ability to learn is shaped very early. 

Also, consider the fact that by supporting people who help breed animals irresponsibly, you're helping to perpetuate the process. 

If you don't care all that much about the animal's background, get one from a shelter or a rescue. That way, you're still getting a cheap animal, but at least you're not supporting irresponsible breeders.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

You COMPLETELY misunderstood. I meant from a purely physiological standpoint, not a family/emotional one. Basic, regular run of the mill cats are pretty much all the same, there's no special herding cat, or OFA certified cat, or cat that's more prone to bloat (lol) than another cat. What I mean to say is, there is always a difference between a BYB shepherd and a well bred one. There's no difference between a cat bred by someone breeding them who loves them and someone with unaltered cats who bred. Most of the time, the cat will be of the same health. They're not prone to all kinds of specific behavioral and bodily ailments and diseases like different breeds of dogs are, or different qualities of a breed of dog are - do you see what I mean?

I am not talking about a dog being more important than a cat. A 1500 dollar cat (and I don't mean like some fancy exotic bengal or persian) and a free cat are the same, same health problems or lack thereof (unless you neglect them), same general temperament if you raise them right, etc.. A 1500 dollar dog and a BYB crappy dog will be vastly different in many aspects.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Tropism said:


> Well, aside from the fact that cats are, mostly, utterly dissimilar in the ways they provide companionship, there's one thing that cats have going for them: people don't value them as much. Because there hasn't been as much directed breeding by irresponsible people, most cats out there are the result of undirected breeding done mostly by the cats themselves, so recessive traits haven't mostly concentrated in them; they're still developing along evolutionary principles. (Yeah, I know, there certainly are purebreds out there, including retardedly-bred purebreds, but most people who have a cat in the USA just have a cat they got somewhere.)
> 
> Also, you're wrong in that they're regarded similarly to a dog: it's been my experience that, even in a family with little regard for either, the dog tends to get more attention and veterinary care than the cat does, which may see the vet once when it gets purchased, maybe.
> 
> ...


Aren't most dogs in shelters from byb? I would think if someone dropped $1500 on a pet they wouldn't be so easy to drop at a shelter..?

Considering rep breeders like to keep the breed pure. And most shelters home mixed breeds..


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Aren't most dogs in shelters from byb? I would think if someone dropped $1500 on a pet they wouldn't be so easy to drop at a shelter..?



Yes? That's why I prefaced that with "*If you don't care all that much about the animal's background*...."


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Larien said:


> A 1500 dollar dog and a *BYB crappy dog* will be vastly different in many aspects.


Lol I like how you put that. So not all byb dogs are "crappy"?

I'm sure there are many out there who sent $3000 on a pair of quality dogs. Hit a hard patch, decided to breed and there you go. One litter and their cost of premium dogs is covered. Now they out for profit, with quality dogs that will now just get worse with each batch


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

But that's just the point she's trying to make - the BYB produced a dog. One of the following occurred:

1) Dog ended up with personality and or health defects, causing the owner to take it to the shelter.
2) Owners could not provide adequate care because of finances, which is why they got a cheap dog in the first place - and shouldn't have.

Now the BYB dog is in the shelter. Now, two more things occurr:

1) Instead of someone going directly to the breeder to pay money for a dog, and in the process give the BYB more money to fuel their business AND make room for ANOTHER pup to be bred and sold, they go to the shelter and adopt a byb dog already in existence.
2) People go to the shelter to adopt other BYB or rescued dogs, and the BYB herself no longer has any business. No demand = no supply - she stops breeding. Success.

A person adopting from a shelter seeks a pet quality companion that they are willing to love and care for, and pay for if it needs expensive medical care, because they want to help end the plight of homeless dogs AND help to prevent BYBs by stopping their production due to lack of demand.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

adamdude04 said:


> Aren't most dogs in shelters from byb? I would think if someone dropped $1500 on a pet they wouldn't be so easy to drop at a shelter..?


Exactly why you should never buy from a BYB no matter what the price. 

When these dogs from BYB's don't get sold, they most likely end up in shelters and eventually die because there isn't enough room to house them or food to feed them.

This is why everyone has been telling you not to support a BYB and buy a puppy for $200 off craigslist and keep looking at rescues and shelters if you don't want to pay that premium price from a reputable breeder. You might not find what you're looking for in the next couple days (maybe you will), but if you keep looking, I'm sure you'll find something.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Ugh, relax. I meant "crappy" in terms of poor health/temperament/body condition, etc. in relation to someone who prefers a well bred, healthy dog. Don't over analyze, lol. I happen to love dogs, all dogs, but when it comes to my own, I want the best to try and minimize future heartache and money loss.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Tropism said:


> Yes? That's why I prefaced that with "*If you don't care all that much about the animal's background*...."


Right.. But I'm still supporting the backyard breeders by housing the dog.. I just went through a 3rd party. 

Considering most dogs are about a year old. They loose the "cute factor" at what, 6-8 months?

So how is going to a shelter better than a byb, if most the dogs are from a byb in the first place??


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Lol I like how you put that. So not all byb dogs are "crappy"?
> 
> I'm sure there are many out there who sent $3000 on a pair of quality dogs. Hit a hard patch, decided to breed and there you go. One litter and their cost of premium dogs is covered. Now they out for profit, with quality dogs that will now just get worse with each batch



To bring children back into the picture, as you seem wont to do, that's like saying: "Well, y'know, I thought I could do this, but my 16-year-old is just consuming too much food and not contributing anything: it's time to start pimping her out."

Irresponsible breeders are irresponsible breeders, and it seems relatively rare that conscientious, responsible breeders of any animal become irresponsible breeders: they just give up breeding. But that said, if you could locate a litter like this, it might be worth taking a chance on -- if you knew that the pups were at least being raised in a way that doesn't cause health, house-training, and temperament problems. However, if you're dealing with a breeder like you describe, they likely are being raised in poor conditions.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Larien said:


> Ugh, relax. I meant "crappy" in terms of poor health/temperament/body condition, etc. in relation to someone who prefers a well bred, healthy dog. Don't over analyze, lol. I happen to love dogs, all dogs, but when it comes to my own, I want the best to try and minimize future heartache and *money loss.*


Pet insurance?? Lol kidding! (not really, good to have just wanted to joke up the moment. Make some laughs)


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

No, you're not. Because eventually, if every BYB dog ever bred (let's just say) ends up either in a shelter OR staying with whoever bought it forever, the BYB will be put out of business because no one is going to her for dogs anymore. They're either adopting existing dogs from the shelter OR they're buying well bred dogs from reputable breeders instead.

It's better because you're saving a dog as opposed to buying it, which as I said, gives the BYB more money to make more dogs and continue the cycle. If we end up adopting out every BYB dog in the world, and then when all of those dogs die, all we're left with are dogs from reputable breeders or shelter dogs (that have been abandoned, or owner died, mistreated, etc.) then I think the world would be a better place. We're a loooong way from that, but doing your part to discourage overpopulation helps.

Edit: Jokes aside, even with insurance, a dog with a lot of health issues is an unhappy one. It suffers with pain and sickness. That's the heartache part.


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Right.. But I'm still supporting the backyard breeders by housing the dog.. I just went through a 3rd party.


No, you're not, because the BYB isn't making a profit off a dog.

This is how a typical BYB puppy mill operates:
Breed cute puppies.
Sell cute puppies.
Desperately try to sell less-cute less-puppies that no one bought and that're rapidly becoming older.
Take dog for loss, drop it off at a shelter.

There're also a lot of people who would try and sell puppies as they reach marketable age, and then give up after a weekend and drop the rest off at a shelter. Either way, the person responsible for the breeding doesn't get a cent of financial compensation.


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## bmasplund (Sep 7, 2010)

selzer said:


> What are my thoughts?
> 
> If someone cannot come up with 1500 dollars for a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, than maybe they should consider rescuing a dog from a shelter or reputable rescue organization.


Yes BYB breeders are not for the breed and usual for the money or an opps. But to say if someone cant afford the high price tag that comes with a GSD they should rescue. But in a way isnt getting dogs from a BYB if you are very aware they are a BYB the same as a rescue essentially as you dont know much about the parents, past health etc. Nothing is guarenteed. 

By the way, I got Sasha from a BYB. We went to a farm that had puppies for sale. I was able to meet both parents which was a plus. We didnt do this sporatically as we had been talking about getting a GSD for months and had been talking to rescues for some time because at this time I didnt have the money for that large price tag but I also feel its very important for kids to grown up with pets. But everytime we went to look at a puppie someone else adopted them. We thought we found an amazing 5 year old female went to meet her, went home talked about it emailed the owner and she said sorry but when you left my daughters cried so we decided to keep her. Then a month later she was on a local rescues site. So we decided on Sasha who we love and adore. I am very happy re got her because for all I know the Farmer would have killed the pups if he couldnt have found homes for them. 

We have started training and are hoping my daughter can use her for the 4H dog project. We went to a Schutzhund meeting but we just dont have the time till after Feb to go consistantly. 

Although I do put money aside now each month so we can get a pup from a great breeder once we buy some more land.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Larien said:


> No, you're not. Because eventually, if every BYB dog ever bred (let's just say) ends up either in a shelter OR staying with whoever bought it forever, the BYB will be put out of business because no one is going to her for dogs anymore. They're either adopting existing dogs from the shelter OR they're buying well bred dogs from reputable breeders instead.
> 
> It's better because you're saving a dog as opposed to buying it, which as I said, gives the BYB more money to make more dogs and continue the cycle. If we end up adopting out every BYB dog in the world, and then when all of those dogs die, all we're left with are dogs from reputable breeders or shelter dogs (that have been abandoned, or owner died, mistreated, etc.) then I think the world would be a better place. We're a loooong way from that, but doing your part to discourage overpopulation helps.


So if most the dogs in shelters are from byb, and I was to adopt one... What? Couldn't I just go to a byb? I'm sure most, if not all byb are sold. Who can refuse a cute puppy?? 

I do get what youre saying though.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Obviously you don't, because if you went to a BYB, you're buying a dog who was bred to fill the spot left by the LAST dog she bred which is now in the shelter. Instead of adopting THAT dog, you're buying an ADDITIONAL dog and giving the BYB more money. So then she has to fill ANOTHER spot with ANOTHER dog. That's how the cycle continues. But you could end it by adopting the one in the shelter instead of fueling her fire.

I can't make it any clearer. I can absolutely refuse a cute puppy if it's poorly bred and raised. All pups are cute. But I want a healthy one with good breeding and good temperament.

Anyway, I've said all I can say - there's nothing else to offer to the argument. So I'm goin' to bed, 'night, all.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

adamdude04 said:


> So if most the dogs in shelters are from byb, and I was to adopt one... What? Couldn't I just go to a byb? I'm sure most, if not all byb are sold. Who can refuse a cute puppy??


No they aren't and BYB's are a large part of the reason why so many purebred dogs are dying in shelters everyday. 

We've got an entire urgent section on this message board dedicated to all the purebred dogs on death row.


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Pet insurance?? Lol kidding! (not really, good to have just wanted to joke up the moment. Make some laughs)


I know you said it off the cuff, but it's a serious thing.

Pet insurance doesn't cover a lot of things, and tends to be high deductable.

Pet insurance doesn't cover the dog who simply can't get it through its head that it shouldn't go potty in the house.

Pet insurance doesn't cover your homeowner's insurance dropping you 'cause your fear-aggro, weak-nerved dog chomped someone and they decided to sue.

The most reliable way to ensure that a dog doesn't have expensive (in money or time or tears) issues is to go through a reputable breeder. If you've got _more_ time, money, and experience to burn, then shelter dogs can make fantastic companions. My family has had several. That said, I'm saving up for a dog and looking at breeders right now because I want to do as much as possible to avoid setting myself up for failure, expenses, and heartache as time goes on.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Shelters are different from BYBs because shelters actually care for the dogs. They taking care of the problems the BYBs caused.

Shelters and reputable breeders care for the dog overall, something BYBs lack in.


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## bmasplund (Sep 7, 2010)

Larien said:


> Edit: Jokes aside, even with insurance, a dog with a lot of health issues is an unhappy one. It suffers with pain and sickness. That's the heartache part.


We bought an English Springer Spaniel from a good breeder, The lines were good as in the grandparents had all recieved titles in conformation to bird hunting. My springer had to be put down because he got cancer. I was going to bring him back for a new puppy but I fell in love with him and stuck it out as long as he could handle it. 

With or without a guarentee I think most people wouldnt give up their puppy. We looked at a dog that had hip dys. We were willing to adopt her and talk on the financial tasks but we have a split level and didnt think the stairs would work. I talked to the breeder who had no Hip problems reported to her before. So things can happen no matter where you get you dog. 

Now I dont support BYB in most terms but we did by sasha from a farmer who in all I would consider a BYB so in a way I supported BYB in my purchase.


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

bmasplund said:


> With or without a guarentee I think most people wouldnt give up their puppy.


Well, yes. And I think that's the point: if you really care about your dog, you're going to do whatever you can for it. And unless you have a great deal of expendable cash and/or time, you want to minimize the chances of major, expensive problems in the future. But that's all that you can do -- minimize the chance. You can still throw the dice poorly and come up snake eyes. 

That being said, at least dogs aren't as bad as rats, who seem to entirely turn to cancer at around age 1.5.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

adamdude04 said:


> Right.. But I'm still supporting the backyard breeders by housing the dog.. I just went through a 3rd party.
> 
> Considering most dogs are about a year old. They loose the "cute factor" at what, 6-8 months?
> 
> So how is going to a shelter better than a byb, if most the dogs are from a byb in the first place??


except you did NOT support the byb. they got only expenses and no money to cover them. In some areas, you even have to pay a token amount to take the dog to the shelter. So what did the BYB learn? that there is no money to be earned, so they take their female and have her spayed.

many shelters work closely with rescues. the shelter dog will be vetted and possibly fostered. some will have basic manners and obedience. the foster family can tell you if the dog is good with kids/cats/dogs and what type of personality. is the dog hyper or laid back? will the dog need to go potty every 2 hours or can he hold it all day? etc etc


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

adamdude04 said:


> Now how about this: everyone has a right to a want. What if you have someone who wants a gsd. However they can't afford $1,500 for a dog. They just want a family pet, who is great with kids, protective, and so on.. They can afford the monthly costs and pet insurance. However they just simply can't come up with $1500 cash for a dog.


If they can afford the monthly costs for food, meds (flea & tick, heartworm) and the luxury of pet insurance then they can certainly save all that up for a few months so that they have the purchase price ($1500) and an emergency fund saved up before bringing a dependent living being into their home for the next 10-15 years.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gsdraven said:


> If they can afford the monthly costs for food, meds (flea & tick, heartworm) and the luxury of pet insurance then they can certainly save all that up for a few months so that they have the purchase price ($1500) and an emergency fund saved up before bringing a dependent living being into their home for the next 10-15 years.


This. I's what I did. I'm far from being a rich person, but I'm buying a puppy from a reputable breeder because I saved up my money.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

FG167 said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> A "real" breeder is someone breeding to better the breed and is fully aware of bloodlines and pros and cons of certain matches.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a byb is anyone who breeds "family pets." If the dogs aren't hip/elbow certified and titled in _something_ to prove nerve and temperament, then that person is more concerned with producing cute puppies or making a profit than they are with the health and temperament of the dogs they produce.
> 
> They may do it out of ignorance (they honestly don't know about hip and elbow certs, they've never heard of obedience/agility/schutzhund trials) or they may do it out of greed, but they're still producing cheap animals for the pet market and are backyard breeders. I don't care if they're charging $25 or $2500.
> 
> If family and friends want a dog like mine, they can go to my breeder.


:thumbup:


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Now how much does it cost, to raise one pup from birth to 8 weeks?
> 
> Now how about this: everyone has a right to a want. What if you have someone who wants a gsd. However they can't afford $1,500 for a dog. They just want a family pet, who is great with kids, protective, and so on.. They can afford the monthly costs and pet insurance. However they just simply can't come up with $1500 cash for a dog.
> 
> ...


 
OK I'll play along....I know what you are trying to say here and I still have to go through the rest of the posts, but as for "just getting a dog for the family or kids", wouldn't you want to stack the deck in your favor? By that I mean going to a reputable breeder who has produced proven dogs year after year with truly solid temperaments? I do have to add and I don't mean to offend anyone and I am in mo way "rich" but if you can't afford 1500 for a good bread shepherd or save the money weather it takes a month or a year or five years maybe you should think of getting a dog from a shelter? There is at times full bread dogs there that would probably make good pets. I don't think 1500 is that much for a dog honestly and say you do get a 200 dollar dog from a byb and he has hd or who knows what, then you will be beyond the 1500 from paying medical bills.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't have children. But if I did, you'd better believe the only dog I'd have around them would be a very well-bred puppy or an adult dog that I could see for myself what he/she was like around kids. I would not bring a backyard-bred puppy into my home with kids. 

Rocky is a byb dog. We bought him before we knew any better. He is sharp, shy, and nervy as all get-out. I honestly think that he'd become a fear biter around children.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I don't have children. But if I did, you'd better believe the only dog I'd have around them would be a very well-bred puppy or an adult dog that I could see for myself what he/she was like around kids. I would not bring a backyard-bred puppy into my home with kids.
> 
> Rocky is a byb dog. We bought him before we knew any better. He is sharp, shy, and nervy as all get-out. I honestly think that he'd become a fear biter around children.


 
My Sinister is from a BYB, I absolutely trust him with children and even though I do not have kids nor do I want any I would absolutely trust him with them. I have 2 nephews ages 11 and 5 and a neice that is 3 years old. Sinister has been raised around them and he is extra careful with them. He absolutely adores children and he even is requested to attend birthday parties. He has never bit anyone, he wasn't even a landshark puppy. He doesn't lash out when in pain (I've stepped on him, other dogs have accidently hurt him as well.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LaRen616 said:


> My Sinister is from a BYB, I absolutely trust him with children and even though I do not have kids nor do I want any I would absolutely trust him with them. I have 2 nephews ages 11 and 5 and a neice that is 3 years old. Sinister has been raised around them and he is extra careful with them. He absolutely adores children and he even is requested to attend birthday parties. He has never bit anyone, he wasn't even a landshark puppy. He doesn't lash out when in pain (I've stepped on him, other dogs have accidently hurt him as well.


I'm not saying all byb dogs are sharp or shy or nervy or unhealthy or have bad hips or anything else. I'm just saying puppies are a crapshoot either way, but with backyard breeder dogs the dice are loaded against you. When getting a puppy, load the dice in your favor, _especially_ if you have kids.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I'm not saying all byb dogs are sharp or shy or nervy or unhealthy or have bad hips or anything else. I'm just saying puppies are a crapshoot either way, but with backyard breeder dogs the dice are loaded against you. When getting a puppy, load the dice in your favor, _especially_ if you have kids.


I understand where you are coming from, I just had to stick up for the BYB dogs out there that are good dogs.

I bought Sinister without truly knowing what a byb was, now that I know I will never do it again. I got extremely lucky with him, he could have had all kinds of temperment issues and health issues. Thank goodness that he doesn't have those issues, and even though he is everything that I wanted in a dog and exactly what I was looking for the chances of getting another byb dog like him are extremely unlikely and I wouldn't want to take that chance again.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

I don't think it's the issue of good vs. bad dogs that have so many of us against BYBs, it's the BYBs themselves and their contributing to the overpopulation of dogs and therefore the deaths of many dogs that concerns us. If it's a pet quality animal one is after, instead of shelling out hundreds of dollars for an animal that will only create a void to be filled by yet another animal, adopt an existing animal at a shelter for a fraction of the cost and the comfort of knowing you saved an animal from death and a bad life, and also cut off the BYB's chain of demand. But I've said that now maybe 6 times, lol.

Here's my experience with it, and part of the reason (beyond the shelters being overrun) why I am so against BYBs is because of my mom's dogs and my Dane.

My mom purchased her two small dogs from a Petland store. I was in high school at the time, and knew next to nothing about pet stores and puppy mills. Now that I do, she is forbidden from ever seeking another dog at a store. As mentioned, puppy mills are just BYBs on a larger, often way more cruel scale. The dogs are not of suitable pedigree and are not health guaranteed. They're not even AKC.

Both of my mom's dogs are problematic. Lexie is very aggressive, possessive, quick to snap (I call her insane 4 times a day) out of control and sensitive. She has a luxating patella, chronic cherry eye, and severe eye discharge that are expensive and difficult to manage. Racey is timid, shy, nervous and not at all like a normal dog. She is cowardly, and prone to skin and ear infections. She is bowlegged in front. If simply training them or correcting OUR behavior was the problem, then why are my well bred Pom, GSD and Corgi so close to perfect?

My Dane came from your average BYB, she had a female she thought was pretty, and bred her. There were two pups, Scout and his sister, who was stillborn. I never got his papers (again I got him in high school), either, even though they were promised. I am not so naive now. Scout had health issues all of his life - allergies, rashes, ear infections. He suffered a great deal with his problems, as did I and my bank account.

My well bred Corgi has had no health issues whatsoever in the 5 years I have owned him. Nor has Rem, so far. Behavior is normal.

So I will absolutely never again go to a BYB or pet store. It's reputable breeder or nothing at all. Not that it will be perfect, but the odds are at least in my favor, and who doesn't like starting out on the right foot?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

When I went to get Ozzy (yes, he's from a BYB, but I don't regret my decision) the breeder was telling me how she was planning to breed one of her other dogs. However, I was the only one that called about Ozzy and his brother. Business was slow. She said that since puppies weren't selling as fast, she wasn't going to breed the female she was planning on breeding because puppies weren't in demand. 

That right there is a prime example. She slowed down her breeding because people weren't buying.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

selzer said:


> profit has nothing to do with it.
> 
> A byb is any breeder who is not a reputable breeder, a puppy mill is the worst type of byb, with many dogs, terrible conditions, etc.
> 
> ...


honestly,after doing all your certs,training,health screening and just good home care and feeding regime,oh and lots and lots of your time and attention you really are not going to make much of a profit anyways,no matter how well bred your dogs.i mean this is not a job your should be getting rich off of.it should be something you are doing because you love the dog,you love the breed and want to see it succeed.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> now how much does it cost, to raise one pup from birth to 8 weeks?
> 
> Now how about this: Everyone has a right to a want. What if you have someone who wants a gsd. However they can't afford $1,500 for a dog. They just want a family pet, who is great with kids, protective, and so on.. They can afford the monthly costs and pet insurance. However they just simply can't come up with $1500 cash for a dog.
> 
> ...


 many good breeders who know you will provide a good home but just don't have the large amount upfront will make arrangements for you to pay in increments on a monthly basis.if they know that there is a good home for their pups they will make it possible for, yes the average joe, to have a healthy, beautiful, well bred companion.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

selzer said:


> what are my thoughts?
> 
> If someone cannot come up with 1500 dollars for a well bred pup from a reputable breeder, than maybe they should consider rescuing a dog from a shelter or reputable rescue organization.
> 
> ...


 people will often value something more if they have to earn it because they will remember more readily how hard it was to get there.as you said,some people will readily drop thousands for an inanimate object and not blink and eye.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> how about cats? They, like a dog, (typical family) are there as a family pet. They provide all the loving aspects of a dog, minus protection, again considering the type/size of dog.
> 
> So why aren't cats under the same concept? If for a loving family member, factors of background shouldn't matter too much, right?
> 
> ...


 trust me cats are right up there with dogs.my mother breeds ragdolls and is one of the most reputable you can get.she screens for health,temp you name it.she shows her cats all over the world and has title after title for her cats.just because they are cats does not mean you should hold them to a lower standard either.they have as many health deffects if not more if bred irresponsibly.**** cats get fiv which is a disease that is in comparison to hiv in humans.they also can get feline infectious leukemia and all sorts of other nasty things which are preventable through responsible screening and breeding.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Cats:
Breed Related Disorders in Cats - AskMyVet.net


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Shelters are different from BYBs because shelters actually care for the dogs. They taking care of the problems the BYBs caused.
> 
> Shelters and reputable breeders care for the dog overall, something BYBs lack in.


 Except that many "BYB"s are people who really do love their dogs. And there are plenty of shelters who really don't care. Dogs most commonly end up needing new homes because they have owners who were unwilling to commit to their dog long term, for whatever reason. Shelters are there because of and for those owners. Those owners will always exist. Even if the only dogs available were from commercial breeders who spayed/neutered them prior to them being sold, there would be a need for shelters and rescues. 

Things are just not as simple as "shelters and good and most breeders are bad". There are lots and lots of variables and every person and every situation is different. And not as simple as "if everyone would just go to shelters instead of breeders, there would be no business for the breeders". That is a very idealistic view but not very realistic. 

The fact is, there are lots of people out there who want the popular breeds of dogs. They want them for a variety of reasons, some well thought out and others not so much. There are a lot of fine pet homes who can't or won't spend $1000++ on a pet quality puppy but they want a puppy and a puppy of a certain breed. Shelter dogs do not fill this need, no matter how much people want them too. There are just not that many purebred puppies available through shelters and rescues. And most of the cautions apply to shelter and rescue dogs that apply to buying from "BYB"s - unknown health and temperament background. 

What there really is a need for with the popular breeds is pet breeders who health test and offer after sale assistance.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Tropism said:


> I'm willing to pay a thousand bucks or so for a dog that's *probably* not going to have some horrible crippling genetic disease that will force me, probably years after I've gotten attached to the dog, to make the decision to either put it down or pony up thousands of dollars in vet bills ... and then maybe having it die or be permanently crippled anyway. It's worth it to get a pup which you know has been properly handled, socialized, etc from birth, and is less likely to cost me hundreds or thousands of dollars in either trainers or damages. It's worth knowing that a dog will likely have certain genetic propensities as far as drive and personality go.


We paid $1,000 for Hannah and she's has crippling dysplasia. Just because you pay high bucks doesn't mean it can't happen. I hate that things like this can just happen no matter how good the breeding.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

will_and_jamie said:


> We paid $1,000 for Hannah and she's has crippling dysplasia. Just because you pay high bucks doesn't mean it can't happen. I hate that things like this can just happen no matter how good the breeding.


 
I'm sorry to hear about Hannah. If you don't mind me asking, how old is she? Is she too old to take back to the breeder?


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Denali Girl said:


> I'm sorry to hear about Hannah. If you don't mind me asking, how old is she? Is she too old to take back to the breeder?


She's three years old on 12/31. We don't want to take her back. Her breeder did offer us another puppy, but we declined.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

jeankbbmmmaan said:


> cats:
> breed related disorders in cats - askmyvet.net


 someone quoted that she noticed most ds(domestic short hairs)are generally healthy with minimal problems.where as fancies are riddled with genetic faults.she states because ds have bred freely without selective breeding and narow gene pools.
This is all breeding practice related.its very clear to most people when they look outside their zone(dogs)but tend to be blind when it comes to their own.
And anyone who says that cat people are not bonded to their animals and vice versa,that they are not on the same intigrated level as dogs has obviously not been to a tica cat show.i've seen some pretty over the top cat fanciers out there almost to the point of being strange........no,not almost,they are definatley eccentric to put it mildly.and they willingly and happily pay $600 for pet $1200 for show and $2500 for a breeder. And my mother ships cats to japan,brazil you name it.


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> I'm sorry to hear about Hannah. If you don't mind me asking, how old is she? Is she too old to take back to the breeder?


Take back?? Seriously?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Take back?? Seriously?


Some people do return a dog that has an issue like Hannah does. It's in the contract of many breeders that they will take back such a puppy and replace it with another.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Some people do return a dog that has an issue like Hannah does. It's in the contract of many breeders that they will take back such a puppy and replace it with another.


I wouldn't want to think about the fate of such a returned dog.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> Take back?? Seriously?


 
Yes, take back, if it was young and I guess if you weren't bonded to the dog a good breeder will take the dog back. I don't get your reply?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Most of the breeders I know will take back their pups/dogs. In the instances I know, nothing bad happens to the dogs or pups. Can't speak for all situations though.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I know of several breeders who have it written in their contracts that they will either take the dog back or give the owner a full or partial refund (depending on the severity of the HD/ED) with proof from a vet.


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

will_and_jamie said:


> We paid $1,000 for Hannah and she's has crippling dysplasia. Just because you pay high bucks doesn't mean it can't happen. I hate that things like this can just happen no matter how good the breeding.


I don't even want to tell you how much I paid for Blitz and I just found out she has mild dysplasia in one hip! How old is Hannah and what have you done/plan on doing?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

How is it possible that we have a discussion about whether or not supporting BYBs is bad? I thought anyone who's been on the boards for more than a day could figure it out.


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

I agree, sagelfn, and it's because people think they're okay that we have too many dogs and too many dogs being put down.

As far as BYBs loving their dogs - obviously, there are going to be breeders that love and care for their dogs. That doesn't mean they should be breeding and it doesn't mean they have good stock.

And again, obviously it's very possible to get an expensive, well-bred dog with problems. But the point a lot of us are trying to make is that why not stack the cards in your favor whilst also helping to curb BYBs and the high number of dogs they put into the world that end up abandoned, in shelters or killed? But once again, I've said that now like 8 times, so I'm done here unless someone brings up something new.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

To answer the original question:



adamdude04 said:


> At what point does a person become a BYB.


1. When two dogs mate by mistake and the owner lets the dam have the pups regardless of the dams age, her physical health, temperament etc.

2. When the owner has no idea when the dam is due or what to do when the pups start coming if there's a problem.

3. When the owner doesn't have the financial resources to take care of the sire, dam, or puppies if a medical emergancy happens.

4. When the owner buys a purebred with a limited registration and breeds the dog anyway. 

5. When a "breeder" pays no attention to genetic issues, doesn't do health testing and doesn't worry about temperament.

Basically, anytime someone allows puppies to be born that may have potential problems that could have been avoided if the "breeder" had done their homework.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

CaseysGSD said:


> I don't even want to tell you how much I paid for Blitz and I just found out she has mild dysplasia in one hip! How old is Hannah and what have you done/plan on doing?


She will celebrate three years old this coming New Year's Eve. We give her Adequan injections once a month, keep carprofen around for pain on days that she's very active, and we will be starting her on some Sea Mussel supplement stuff once I figure out what kind to get. I think someone PM'd me with some info so I'll have to check that out again. She's seen an orthopedist and FHO's were recommended due to her petite size (55 pounds). 

I'm so sorry to hear Blitz has dysplasia. How old is she? 

I could never give her back to the breeder, put her to sleep (seriously recommended by some people), or trade her in. Just not doable. She's so lively, energetic, and gives her all to everything she does. This is just a bump in the road to her life. We'll get her the surgery she needs when the time comes that it can't be managed with supplements and medication. We keep the carprofen usage super minimal. Like three times a month limited.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Except that many "BYB"s are people who really do love their dogs. And there are plenty of shelters who really don't care. Dogs most commonly end up needing new homes because they have owners who were unwilling to commit to their dog long term, for whatever reason. Shelters are there because of and for those owners. Those owners will always exist. Even if the only dogs available were from commercial breeders who spayed/neutered them prior to them being sold, there would be a need for shelters and rescues.
> 
> Things are just not as simple as "shelters and good and most breeders are bad". There are lots and lots of variables and every person and every situation is different. And not as simple as "if everyone would just go to shelters instead of breeders, there would be no business for the breeders". That is a very idealistic view but not very realistic.
> 
> ...


Never said that, nor was that what I meant.

I meant that shelters are good breeders care for the overall being of a dog such as health, temperament, behavior and who the dog goes to. BYBs basically just think their dogs will have a cute puppies or have ridiculous reasons to breed, its mostly whats best for them, not whats best for the dog.Even though the shelter gets dogs with unknown backgrounds, but they try their best to work with what they have and try their best to take care of the dogs health, behavioral problems and get them into a home best suited for them. BYBs most of the time don't really care about that.

For your statement about people should just go to shelters, is nothing what I even talked about. People need to go to good breeders or shelters/rescues. If they did that, there probably won't be as many BYBs.

Never said that all shelters were good either. If the shelter doesn't have whats best for the dog at heart, then they aren't doing their job as a shelter/rescue now are they? 

As for shelters/rescues not having enough purebred puppies is not necessarily true. That all depends on the location. My shelter gets tons of chihuahuas, labs, and alot of GSDs. It all depends on location etc.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

If say someone purchased a pup and it didn't work out, a reputable breeder would take the pup back. The current owner would not be looking for a home for that pup on CL.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have read through all the responses, and there are some things that make me a little uneasy:

1, it seems like people think that a well-bred shepherd will not have serious health problems or dysplasia. In the last few pages, some people have dogs that they purchased with a heavy price tag, and those pups ended up having dysplasia. That is going to happen. Sometimes it is mild, sometimes it is crippling. Buying from a reputable breeder does not gurantee no problems. 

I think that people who have researched and chosen a reputable breeder, pretty much understand that sometimes living creatures have problems. These people are very likely to research the illness and provide the supplements and care and possibly operations the the dog might need. People who have to buy a bargain pup from a mating of convenience, without any consideration to the health of the sire and dam and recent ancestors, are more likely to find themselves in the situation, and possibley in less of a position to manage it. 

2, The idea that only BYB dogs will have behavior or temperament problems. Not so. Seriously weak nerves will most likely come from BYBs, but most of the problems dogs have have more to do with training/environment than genetics. Getting a GSD from a top breeder will not gurantee you a dream dog if you do not get out there and do your part. I think that people who have researched and found a reputable breeder, and put their money where their mouth is, are very likely to go the other nine yards and train and socialize the puppy properly. They are likely to have a success.

We support breeders with dollars. If you give ANY dollars to breeders who are not doing the minimum, we are encouraging these breeders to continue pumping out puppies. I think people want to rationalize this, because they just want a pet, and do not want to pay an arm and a leg for it. 

There is a serious problem with cats as well as dogs. I knew someone who had a Persion, and she said that purebred cats have half the lifespan of other cats. Their breeders probably hear the same kind of flack that dog breeders hear, why is it that much, there are free kittens down the road.

Well, if that is what you want, go and get one, see ya later. There are people who breed cats and there are people who keep intact cats allowing them to breed indiscriminately, giving their kittens away or dumping them. Lots of shelters euth cats regularly. Other places are keeping feral cat colonies, speutering them. Other people are funding spay and release programs. 

The problems with cat overpopulation is probably as bad if not worse than dog overpopulation. I do not know about how bad the purebred cat owners are about breeding without knowledge, etc., a cat BYB. Most of the problem we see are the mongrel cats, breeding constantly.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Larien said:


> I agree, sagelfn, and it's because people think they're okay that we have too many dogs and too many dogs being put down.
> 
> As far as BYBs loving their dogs - obviously, there are going to be breeders that love and care for their dogs. That doesn't mean they should be breeding and it doesn't mean they have good stock.
> 
> And again, obviously it's very possible to get an expensive, well-bred dog with problems. But the point a lot of us are trying to make is that why not stack the cards in your favor whilst also helping to curb BYBs and the high number of dogs they put into the world that end up abandoned, in shelters or killed? But once again, I've said that now like 8 times, so I'm done here unless someone brings up something new.


I agree 100%.


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## Tropism (Nov 30, 2010)

selzer said:


> I have read through all the responses, and there are some things that make me a little uneasy:
> 
> 1, it seems like people think that a well-bred shepherd will not have serious health problems or dysplasia.
> 2, The idea that only BYB dogs will have behavior or temperament problems.


I didn't mean to give that impression. As others have mentioned, it's about loading the dice: you're more likely to get a 'good' dog from a reputable breeder than a BYB. You could get a terrible dog from either, but you're more likely to get one from a BYB. It's all about playing the probabilities.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I hate to hear people say that they are "ONLY" getting a dog for a pet. Being a companion and living with children is the MOST important job a dog will ever have, not to mention one of the hardest! Kids running around, other pets, strangers at the door, etc etc It requires strong nerves, good judgment (not to confuse the sales man with the burglar sneaking in the window), manners, and (we all pray) a long and healthy life.

Why, then, do people think it's ok to get a cheap dog for this? It's not because they don't have the money, they always say they would spend $$ if the dog was for a purpose! I truly believe if dogs could talk that, from the most expensive show dog to the lowly mutt free in the newspaper, their family will be their greatest priority.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You don't breed a dog for the ancillary use of the dog. The most important use of a car is for transportation....we get that....but if you buy a Ferrari you have certain performance expectations of the car. All people don't desire nor can handle these expectations. The car was created for performance and speed and people who buy them understand this and usually are the type to appreciate this. You don't try to "change" the Ferrari so that it is " convenient for people driving to work every day for "transportation", because you like its looks!!!!!! This is absurd. Buy a Sable or Camry for "primarily" transportation purposes, but leave the performance dogs/cars intact. This is an understanding that "BREEDERS" should never compromise on; if they have knowledge and passion for the breed. When they compromise these principles they are the biggest BYB, in my opinion, because they do irreputable damage to the breed and its function. BYB isn't about certs, money, titles, or if the dog is bred in a shed, BYB is about people producing dogs that don't represent the breed in form and function. And people who use the dog for its intended use understand this, and internet armchair experts don't. JMO


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## Larien (Sep 26, 2010)

Excellent point, Dainerra, very true. And same to you, Cliffson1, I forgot to mention how BYBs are also contributing to the damage done to the GSD breed. There's just too many reasons not to go to a BYB and too many options available that are better, jmo.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

cliffson1: Like Larien, I think you make an excellent point. The German Shepherd is not just any dog. It is a superior dog, with unique traits that are not typically found in many other breeds of dogs.

The purpose of reputable breeders is to keep those traits going and strong in the breed, to keep it superior, to keep it elite in its qualities. Nothing is sadder than to meet a German Shepherd that does not cut it, that is low-life or common, that brings embarrassment to the good name of the German Shepherd. 

Even if you have a BYB German Shepherd with excellent qualities and traits, you have to tip your hat with respect to the reputable breeder. In all likelihood, even the GSD with excellent traits that is from a back yard breeder has, in its ancestry or bloodline, a GSD that was properly bred. Improper breeding, on the other hand, easily leads to a diluting of the superior traits of the breed and the strengthening of flaws and defects, like bad hips.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

adamdude: You also raised a good point about economics. What if a family is poor or just does not know how to go out and shop for a properly bred GSD? That is a good question. I would suggest, as others have done, to go to the rescues and find a good GSD there. 

Sad to say, there are properly bred and fine quality GSD's in the rescues and shelters. Because having money doesn't prevent you from being an idiot and a horse's rear end. And there are plenty of idiots with cash who buy a well-bred GSD and then say, "like, oh my goodness, this dog is, like, way too much to handle, and like, oh no, this dog left his hair on my Louis Vuitton, like this dog doesn't appreciate my nice stuff, and like, no way can I keep a dog like this."

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. In fact, I have read "cry me a river" posts by people looking for sympathy who are rehoming that I wanted to stick a "horse's butt" icon on, but obviously that icon is not available for posting. But people who are a horse's anus go and buy very good GSD's and then dump them or just give them away (even though the dog's buying contract clearly states to return to breeder), and they will wind up in a shelter (or if lucky, a rescue) without people realizing what a fine quality dog it actually is. So, if a poorer family researches the rescues you will find wonderful GSD's there also and not have to pay a lot.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/urgent/147539-whiteville-nc-female-k35-black-panther.html


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## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Everyone has some good points. Glad this thread has a lot of information


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

adamdude04 said:


> How about cats? They, like a dog, (typical family) are there as a family pet. They provide all the loving aspects of a dog, minus protection, again considering the type/size of dog.
> 
> So why aren't cats under the same concept? If for a loving family member, factors of background shouldn't matter too much, right?
> 
> ...


Your last comment above is so wrong!!! Yes it should matter the background and history. Do you want a dog that has medical issues or worse temperment issues? You want to promote people that cram their dogs in cages and force them to breed one after another? Then when they are done with them they drop them at a shelter or just kill them? Of course I am referring to the worst case, puppy mills also known as BYB. I have had one of these dogs because I did not know better. But I since had saved my money to buy that expensive dog and what a difference!!!!!

Save the money, if a person can not come up with $1500 ( and I can understand that) then how are they going to come up with $3000 if the dog gets bloat or something bad happens? Adopt form a rescue or shelter, at least they are not directly supporting the BYB. As my trainer has said, it is sad that most of the GSD he see's now are crap! They are skittish and unstable, not what a true GSD is and where do you think most of these dogs come from?


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