# Chinese herbs vet?



## Grims

I am fed up with my vet, I have been trying to figure out my pups digestive issues for months...and he just deworms him and puts him on a Science Diet prescription canned food each time. 

So, i wanted to find a vet that supported raw feeding, thinking they would be more open minded...the only one I could find just moved here from California...and doesn't have an office yet. She sees patients in her barn and does acupuncture and Chinese herbs only. Sounds kinda witch doctory to me...

The vets name is Darcie Quam, I did a google search and she is indeed a certified vet. 

This is her husbands website...who she is mentioned on...he does horse Chiropractic ..

http://www.horsefixer.com/services.html

I would rather not throw a way any more money on snake oil, what are your thoughts on this?


----------



## Grims

Oh, and don't mean to rush but I set up an appointment (out of desperation) so if you guys have any opinions one way or the other...sooner the better


----------



## Brightelf

I'm a real believer in Traditional Chinese Medicine for animals. The science behind it-- and it IS science-- is not "Western" thought nor even close to it. The reasoning behind what is done to help settle a digestive issue isn't the way we think about it at all. This is treating the entire system and not a teeny weeny symptom. The focus is balancing the system itself. Then, it lets the body maintain itself at the optimal balance. WOW... I have seen near miracles with this.


----------



## littledmc17

I have Brady on herbs everyday!!!
sick of having him on Meds


----------



## LisaT

I'm glad that you made an appointment.

Doing only herbs and acupuncture allows her to not have to deal with a lot of conventional medicine that runs counter-intuitive to someone working with that type of medicine. I have been to both types of vets that do acupuncture and herbs -- one that only does that, and another that is a mix and works in a big practice. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

As for the type of medicine -- If you find the right practitioner that connects with your dog, they should be able to help a lot, in ways that conventional medicine can't. 

I think it's cool that her husband does equine chiropractic. That says that she will know quite a few things outside of her certification, at least looking over the site that you posted.

Do be sure that you let us know how it goes!!


----------



## 3K9Mom

I'll bring my dogs to any vet that might be able to help them. And the only way to know if someone can help them is to bring them to the vet. 

Kind of circular, huh?

In the end, it helps to have an open mind, a discerning brain, and a watchful eye. If something sounds reasonable, try it. If it works, keep doing it. If it has bad effects, stop. If it doesn't seem to be helping (but it doesn't seem to hurt), try it a little longer and do some more research. If nothing helps, check out other options. 

And the more you do this, the more you learn (how do you think some of us learned this stuff? We've had sick dogs!). And the more you'll trust your instincts. 

I think that discontinuing using your existing vet is a good idea, BTW. Even if you opt to find another traditional vet as a back-up, leaving that other practice seems (to me, anyhow) like a wise idea. There are lots of good vets out there. Unfortunately, there are some less than adequate ones too. So, we keep searching. 

Keep us posted. Good luck. I hope this works for you and your pup.


----------



## Grims

Thanks guys, I was a little worried about it. I never knew there was any science to this old Chinese stuff.


----------



## Grims

Get this, when I called my now ex vet to get Axel's records they told me I would have to pay a 15 dollar processing fee!


----------



## mommyof1

What are you serious? Thats crazy. That is ridiculous.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: AxxelThanks guys, I was a little worried about it. I never knew there was any science to this old Chinese stuff.


It also depends on what you mean by science. There is science to it, but Western medicine hasn't yet found ways to measure all the things that are affected. Thus, if they can't measure it, it's difficult for that type of medicine to acknowledge the full benefits. Some of that is changing however.

http://www.saugertieswellness.com/scienceacup.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-05-09-acupuncture-cover_x.htm
http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avh...ategoryId=47263


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: AxxelGet this, when I called my now ex vet to get Axel's records they told me I would have to pay a 15 dollar processing fee!


I had a vet office that did that -- he charged per page. He was also a terrible vet, and made my dog quite ill


----------



## Maedchen

Western medicine treats dis-eases by only masking the symptoms, eastern medicines treat the whole being, addressing the underlying cause and is able to establish a true cure (given the lifeforce isn't too damaged)- western medicine does not.


----------



## Grims

Okay, I went to the visit and have some mixed feelings about it. First I was impressed she wasn't bias towards either medicine...she says she supports what ever works and most people get to her after they have tried everything else. 

I was impressed she at least has knowledge of higher quality foods such as Wellness, Innova, TOTW, etc. She doesn't out right reccomend raw diets, but she does support them as long as you can put in the effort required. 

The things that worried me were things like saying my dog is a "fire" because he is vocal and curious (arent all puppies?) supposedly there are 4 different dog personalities and determine what type of treatment a dog should receive. They are of course the elements of Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind... I don't see how chinese mythology can predict treatments, and besides...don't they eat dogs over there...why would they know anything about dog care? I know the Chinese are obsessed with everything being symmetrical, but it seems like that is taking it a bit far to me. 

Most GSDs are typically Water dogs it seems because they bite when they are afraid or cornered..

For a trained vet she seemed to have common misconceptions about our dogs and said at first she was worried I was brining a GSD because they can be aggressive, and apparently most all rottis are too (I have owned rots all my life dont get me started)

She was extremely hyper, talked faster than I could blink an eye, and jumped subjects like a frog in heat...which makes me wonder if she is sampling her own drugs..

Anyway Axel is on a herb called "Happy Earth" now for a couple of weeks.


----------



## LisaT

She is using the 5 element theory which is, in fact, quite powerful, if it's used correctly:

http://www.tcmbasics.com/basics_5elements.htm

The generalizations about the breed, I'm not so sure about. I saw one TCM (traditional chinese medicine) vet that thought GSDs were predominantly Fire. However, she worked with police dogs, so that temperament might have been appropriate. If your vet has seen mainly a certain type of GSD, she will generalize in that way. 

To be a vet, they all go through that "vet training", and I don't think any of them come out of it without some type of misconception. Heck, each of us has our own misconceptions that typically we aren't called on







Very few vets will know the details of good nutrition, though the tcm will typically know more than the regular vets. *Some* will know the details only if they have studied it a lot. And it's funny sometimes the areas where they will seem very conventional -- I'm often surprised when I'm talking to a very open minded TCM vet, and then suddenly some common conventional misconception will slip in. I think it's just a "well, they're human too" thing.


----------



## Grims

Alright, I am trying to keep an open mind myself. It just seemed like a few rad flags to me.


----------



## BowWowMeow

You might want to check out the book, "Four Paws Five Directions," for a better understand of the theory underlying this type of treatment. It's actually a great book to have in your library. 

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=cdn153

The holistic vets that I've seen did not make assumptions about animals based on breed but instead did a lot of testing and asked a lot of questions to determine the elements of the individual animal.


----------



## 3K9Mom

My friend's GSD (Camper's "niece") is a fire dog too. So while Camper is enjoying all sorts of "hot" food, my friend is always cooling her dog down. 

But it seems to work for the skin issues that her dog had. Then again, Camp's elk, bison, etc diet works great for his skin issues too. I always felt that Camper was a Wood dog.

I never completely understood it. But I do respect it because it seemed to work for her.


----------



## Grims

She says my dog id neither hot nor cold, but his personality is fire.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom.....I never completely understood it. .....


I've tried, but felt like I was going in circles, chasing my tail, so to speak.

Guess it's that yin-yang thing


----------



## Grims

What I don't get is you guys have said no one really understands its full effects. Doesn't that mean it could be doing as much good as bad?


----------



## Maedchen

Read "Voices of Qi: An Introductory Guide to Traditional Chinese Medicine" and you will understand how TCM works. It's very complex.

The term fire doesn't relate only to his temperament, but his physical complaints too. Inflammation of any kind is a sign of too much heat/ fire. By supporting the organs (with certain supplements, specific/ cooling diet, acupuncture) who correlate with certain problems (like the kidneys affect the ears, stomach probs correlates with the spleen which is affected by the liver) the system is brought back into balance. Hope that makes some sense.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: AxxelWhat I don't get is you guys have said no one really understands its full effects. Doesn't that mean it could be doing as much good as bad?


What I can't seem to get is how to use it to treat in terms of the number of complexities. I do understand the basic theory of stagnation, abundance, etc. I can't look at the dog, the tongue, feel the pulses, etc. and put the whole picture together. 

I like to reason things out, and with TCM, I don't quite have a handle on it to reason it out the way that my vet does. (Guess that's why she went to training?!?!????) But I like to pinpoint cause and effect as closely as I can, and that's kinda the hard part, because if you think too much, you can go in circles with this stuff. Again, I need the vet to translate for me.

What I can use is many of the TCM properties of herbs when I choose which ones that my dogs need. I need my vet to translate for me what my dogs are, read their pulses, tongue, etc. to put that all together. If I have that information, then I know how to choose herbs and supplements for them. She uses that information to help decide which acupuncture points to use when Max is getting treating, among other things.

More on using meridians and what they are:
http://tuberose.com/meridians.html
http://www.acumedico.com/meridians.htm



Dogs get their own charts too








http://www.tallgrasspublishers.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=27


----------



## 3K9Mom

> Quote:no one really understands its full effects.


Ah, Axxel, that's not what *I* said. I said *I* never completely understood it. Big difference. 

I come at veterinary medicine as someone who understands western human medicine quite well. So that's ALWAYS my starting point. (Start with what you know, right?) Others here always start with herbs and tinctures or the chiropractor's office. 

By way of an example: I don't completely understand how acupuncture works for pain management. I mean, it sort of makes sense if we're stimulating nerves to work in new ways in areas where the nerves are understimulated or injured. I understand that. 

But acupuncture, in the Eastern world, is about finding the areas in the patient's body where her energy (her Chi) is blocked, and strategically placing needles (and sometimes a flow of electricity) so that energy can flow again. It's not about the western medicine idea of "fixing" the nerves. 

Honestly, my very western medical brain doesn't quite get that. I did yoga for years; I understand the whole energy flow theory, but it's still hard for me to understand how blocked energy can keep my senior dog from bounding around the yard.

Nevertheless, when we went to an alternative vet and she did acupuncture on Zamboni, the results were quite significant. She was bounding around the yard. Her chi was flowing!

Do I have to understand everything for it to work? No. There's probably a lot about regular medicine (human and veterinarian) that you don't understand, but it often works. 

Can a practitioner be doing bad as well as good? Yes. That's why we observe carefully. What is going on? Is our dog comfortable throughout the procedure? Does what we're being told SEEM reasonable (even if it's stretching our mind?) The more my brain is being stretched, the less I'm willing to tolerate invasiveness or my dog's discomfort during a procedure. 

My dog curled up in my alternative vet's lap and snoozed during her acupuncture session (this is a dog that doesn't warm up to anyone the first few times she meets them). As she was giving Zamboni chiropractic (her first session), Boni leaned in to the vet, as if asking for "more, please." I was pretty comfortable that what I was doing was right for my dog at that time. She was making that pretty clear. 

But as you've experienced, there are poor practitioners in every field --traditional and alternative. We learn to trust our instincts, and what our dogs are telling us. If either says "eh, this isn't right." Then, for me, it's time to go. 

And yes, just like that, I go.


----------



## Grims

Thanks 3K9Mom, but I was actually referring to Lisa's post. 



> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: AxxelThanks guys, I was a little worried about it. I never knew there was any science to this old Chinese stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> It also depends on what you mean by science. There is science to it, but Western medicine hasn't yet found ways to measure all the things that are affected. Thus, if they can't measure it, it's difficult for that type of medicine to acknowledge the full benefits. Some of that is changing however.
> 
> http://www.saugertieswellness.com/scienceacup.html
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-05-09-acupuncture-cover_x.htm
> http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avh...ategoryId=47263
Click to expand...


----------



## LisaT

Perhaps I should have been more clear. 

The practitioners of TCM know and understand it. Western medicine, that used to completely discount chinese medicine and acupunture, did so because they don't know how to measure it's effects. While that is what is slowly changing, it is still true that Western Medicine takes a very different viewpoint of TCM than does those that practice it. 

You will find a similar, and perhaps even a stronger bias, against chiropractic.


----------

