# Stability in GSD Disappearing.



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Several unrelated threads recently had me mulling over whether I would actually want another GSD.

I think probably not. I know a couple of places I could probably get a stable dog.

My problem though is why does one have to do months to years of research to find a decent GSD.

To me any breed should have a stable temperament, to where you don't have to worry about them constantly. I have seen personally, and read about too many neurotic GSDs.

People blame BYBs all the time but where do their dogs come from.

The problem IMO is within the larger GSD community.

Dogs bred to extremes for sport and show.

Most of them will wind up in homes and yes some will be bred by the dreaded BYB but the overall direction of the breed is not coming not from them.

They work with whatever is out there that is bred by the big sport and show crowds.

A stable GSD with good health and temperament is becoming increasingly hard to come by.

People on other threads have discussed the lack of temperament for SD dog work. That is pathetic. The GSD was the go to dog for the blind and other SD work for years. They are now becoming less and less the dog of choice.

Most pet owners buy a particular breed "because they like it".
If you like GSDs then buyer beware.

This forum has some dedicated breeders on it but in the real world I don't really like a lot of today's GSDs.

I'm aware that this is happening in other breeds and that too is pathetic.

Perhaps someone will start a new breed with sanity and stability as their main goal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you don't have to start a new breed -- you just do not ever sacrifice soundness for anything else.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

It does seem that there is a lot of major problems with our breed..well bred or byb...I have been blessed so far with Sib, but am always fearful of that dreaded cancer or bloat...Are other breeds afflicted as often or as severe as GSD's?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

carmspack said:


> you don't have to start a new breed -- you just do not ever sacrifice soundness for anything else.


That's true Carmen but not what is happening IMO. 

Sport dogs are getting sportier and show dogs showier (new word).
The cost is temperament and stability.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> People blame BYBs all the time but where do their dogs come from.


Exactly this!!
I mean seriously...when all the raids with pit bulls went down and Michael Vick was arrested, the "old timers" dissed him for being a punk, or whatever, but where did he get his dogs? BYBs? So where did _they_ get _their_ dogs??

Someone, a breeders somewhere (dozens is more like it) wasn't (weren't) careful in placements, and that's the bottom line with all breeds. 
Err, I mean the bottom line is always money...


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## Shep's_Shepherd (Jan 18, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Perhaps someone will start a new breed with sanity and stability as their main goal.


Starting a new breed won't fix anything. Just take a look at all the new "designer" dogs for sale (doodles and poos). I hope you don't think they're the answer to finding sanity and stability in a dog. Give it a few years, and your "new breed" will have problems too. GSDs have been a very popular breed for a very long time. That demand has led to poor breeding in an effort to chase dollars. Maybe the way to go is to find a rare breed dog with the qualities you want, and it _shouldn't_ have the over breeding issues the modern GSD has suffered from (but I think it may be tougher to find the rare dog breeder than finding a good GSD).


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I was half joking about a new breed but at one time not all that long ago the GSD came about as a new breed. 

Taken from several different lines and I'll bet a lot of culling to arrive at a stable Jack of all Trades, good with kids and can settle in home dog.
Dogs that could work at numerous tasks and still settle.

Not a whole lot of them in the GSD population any more.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I was half joking about a new breed but at one time not all that long ago the GSD came about as a new breed.
> 
> Taken from several different lines and I'll bet a lot of culling to arrive at a stable Jack of all Trades, good with kids and can settle in home dog.
> Dogs that could work at numerous tasks and still settle.
> ...


Part of the problem is that people don't have the heart for culling anymore. I know I couldn't do it. I think even rescues tend to go to far in trying to save all dogs. I know I want to save them all, but should we?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Why do you associate "sporty" with bad temperment? Stability is still strongly there in working lines. I said they might not be a good choice for "psychiatric" as I interpret that to mean "there to comfort and calm" someone. A working line will likely show distress at the handlers distress


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It hard to fathom...with all the new ways and means, and experts....I should think the breed should be able to do service work like they used to when the dogs were of lesser quality as people tell me.....really baffling!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Why do you associate "sporty" with bad temperment? Stability is still strongly there in working lines. I said they might not be a good choice for "psychiatric" as I interpret that to mean "there to comfort and calm" someone. A working line will likely show distress at the handlers distress


Because people are breeding for specific characteristic, traits, or beauty as they see it. It doesn't matter if it's horses, dogs, birds. When you inbreed or linebreed too closely for certain wished for traits or looks then somewhere the negatives will get stronger also.

The vast majority of GSDs are in pet homes and most pet homes want stability and a dog they don't have to worry about law suits over.

The nerve base in the GSD is a dying characteristic.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

All breeds have issues they are more prone to. Small breeds have them, large breeds have them. Dogs are always bred for qualities that are most desired. The first dog of any breed is nothing the same as the dog of that breed today. 

You can take the best bred dog and chain it outside with no food or water, keep it unsocialized, unloved and abused and it will not have a stable temperament. That is how a byb has an unstable dog and therefore unstable puppies. Its a cycle. Not to mention society has a lot to do with why they aren't used. They considered aggressive breeds by social media. 

GSDs have been in the top owned breeds for a few years now. There must not be something that wrong with them. Its all about what you want and can handle.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think part of the problem is people are breeding for very specific things like a specific sport or a certain trait they want and not taking into account the wider temperament/health, so you get more issues with temperament or health that maybe you can control if you keep the dog in a very controlled environment but are not ideal for a home situation... So it seems things like aggression, dog aggression, fear issues, reactivity, allergies, and so on are becoming more common because breeders do not care about these things when they breed...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no one hates the disappearing nerve base more than myself --- 

this "That's true Carmen but not what is happening IMO. 

Sport dogs are getting sportier and show dogs showier (new word).
The cost is temperament and stability "

I keep trying to provide examples of dogs that "ARE"

and have another one to show - just need to figure out how and where -- wait for "Buffy"

these are important to all the Service Dog provider/breeders that are emerging lately.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't necessarily think your finding less dogs with good nerve but I think your rather finding more and more german shepherd dogs with bad nerve. Being one of the most popular dogs in the country, your bound to have crap stock producing more and more crap stock to meet the ever increasig demand. What is difficult, however, if weeding your way through the masses with subpar temperments and finding a dog with the temperment everyone knows shepherds should have.

Doing your research and resourcing reliable sources shouldn't be and isnt rocket science. Since when did people get so lazy as to not fully research into what they are purchasing? You get out of it what you put into it. Doesn't matter whether your buying a car, a house, a camera, or a german shepherd dog. Not all things are created equal and it takes a little bit of digging beneath the surface to see past aesthetically-pleasing websites, colorful advertisements, or someone preaching that they have the 'next best thing'.

As far as the generalizations of sport dogs and showline dogs being extreme one way or the other.... Well, go see them for yourself and follow your gut. If your in the market for a shepherd and go to check out the parents, the biggest question most people aren't asking themselves on a very basic level is "do the PARENTS of these puppies exemplify what IM looking for in a dog, structurally, temperamentally, etc?" If not, MOVE ON and keep looking.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

In the late 1960's through the 1970's my next door neighbor from childhood had two GSD's. They were mostly kept in the backyard, but never aggressive to me along our shared fence, they'd let me pet them, they were quiet. It was our Beagle that was the terror. At the business my father managed in the Bronx in the late 1970's, they took in and housed a stray family of GSD's. No issues with them. It was being around these dogs that made we want a GSD when I got older. 

I don't know how much has changed over the years, but it does seem strange the intensity and duration of training many of these dogs require (including my own) to get a good family pet.

And speaking of a SD for the blind, the man down the street has one. The first one I met was a male GSD, he would let his dog stop and smell my former GSD mix and we would talk briefly, he was nice. His 2nd SD GSD, a female, is definitely dog reactive - her hackles go up and has a fierce bark, thank goodness no pulling or chasing. We can't stop and talk anymore.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I can't say I agree abakerr. The average person should NOT have to do "research" on dogs for a year to find a *decent* dog. It's one thing if you want to compete in sports/show, then yeah I get it, but for the average person? I tried for 6 months and still did not end up with a healthy dog and I considered myself dog savvy and asked tons of people for their opinions.

For anyone "just getting into" GSDs there's just no possible way to gain information about lines that took breeders decades to obtain. It's even more impossible with all the misinformation that is floating around. Strangers who see my GSD, 9 times out of 10, will tell me how glad they are that my shepherd isn't so "sloped" and how the "slope contributes to HD", "GSDs are all mean", blah blah blah. It's ridiculous. I don't even respond anymore to those comments; I just nod my head and smile because I can't be bothered to explain again for the millionth time.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Because people are breeding for specific characteristic, traits, or beauty as they see it. It doesn't matter if it's horses, dogs, birds. When you inbreed or linebreed too closely for certain wished for traits or looks then somewhere the negatives will get stronger also.
> 
> The vast majority of GSDs are in pet homes and most pet homes want stability and a dog they don't have to worry about law suits over.
> 
> The nerve base in the GSD is a dying characteristic.


I have a high sport dog, and a very "real" PPD/police style dog. Both are very stable. Ill put my males stability and nerve up against any other dog I've ever come across. Either could function well as a pet, but I choose to work them. If I decided to no longer work my dogs, I'd still seek out the same lines or type of dog 

I good working breeder is breeding for maximum function, which includes stability, trainability, performance, health, longevity, etc.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My own experience is I have found better and better GSDs over the years. Now maybe it is because I know more of how to look ..........


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Gretchen said:


> In the late 1960's through the 1970's my next door neighbor from childhood had two GSD's. They were mostly kept in the backyard, but never aggressive to me along our shared fence, they'd let me pet them, they were quiet. It was our Beagle that was the terror. At the business my father managed in the Bronx in the late 1970's, they took in and housed a stray family of GSD's. No issues with them. It was being around these dogs that made we want a GSD when I got older.
> 
> I don't know how much has changed over the years, but it does seem strange the intensity and duration of training many of these dogs require (including my own) to get a good family pet.
> 
> And speaking of a SD for the blind, the man down the street has one. The first one I met was a male GSD, he would let his dog stop and smell my former GSD mix and we would talk briefly, he was nice. His 2nd SD GSD, a female, is definitely dog reactive - her hackles go up and has a fierce bark, thank goodness no pulling or chasing. We can't stop and talk anymore.


The amount of training a dog requires is simply good marketing coupled with our "I want results now!" Mentality. Same reason our divorce rates are high, and kids medicated but still failing basic schooling


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> My own experience is I have found better and better GSDs over the years. Now maybe it is because I know more of how to look ..........


Me too Nancy, but it really isn't about me. 

I have two dogs that may outlive me, so I'm not really concerned about my next dog.

Jack is very solid temperament. Zena is a little more skittish than I would like but is not afraid of people or other dogs and is not reactive. She is more hyper and twangy than Jack though.

I'm really referring to the neurotic dogs I see in public and all the problem dogs on here. 

Hunter: In the circles of dogdom that you run in, you probably don't see a lot of what I'm talking about. Believe me there is a negative trend in the breed overall IMO.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

OP, i am not sure every dog owner would have the same thing in mind when you say stability - do you mean docile, inactive, low prey drive, rock solid nerves, high thresholds, submissive, biddable, on/off switch, balanced drives....what exactly do you mean??

you have made some big claims about entire breed/s, i would like some clarification on what you are talking about if you please.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

x11 said:


> OP, i am not sure every dog owner would have the same thing in mind when you say stability - do you mean docile, inactive, low prey drive, rock solid nerves, high thresholds, submissive, biddable, on/off switch, balanced drives....what exactly do you mean??
> 
> you have made some big claims about entire breed/s, i would like some clarification on what you are talking about if you please.


Well for a starter I'm not indicting a whole breed. I'm generalizing, so of course it doesn't apply to all.

Secondly, If people can't tell the difference between stable an unstable dogs, or people for that matter, then nothing I say will make much difference.

Just to take from your list though I would say; rock solid nerve, high thresholds, biddable, on and off switch. I personally don't care for dogs who submissively urinate or deficate from fear. I don't think hiding behind their owners is a sign of stability and freaking out over every new situation is not stability by my definition. Certainly not fear aggression.

I'm sure there are more but I think that's a good start.

I've been fortunate to have had a few really sound dogs with rock solid nerves, so I'm fairly comfortable in believing I can tell the difference and see what is happening to this breed.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

think i gotcha, thanks for clarifying. i am getting most words do describe temperament but words like, stability, nerve, clarity... i still stuggle with. they seem context and possibly culture dependent. 

cheers


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Me too Nancy, but it really isn't about me.
> 
> I have two dogs that may outlive me, so I'm not really concerned about my next dog.
> 
> ...


I see those types too, but not as much as other breeds.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I guess I've been lucky, the last German Shepherd I had with nerve issues was back in 1974 and my parents purchased him from the newspaper, since than my own dogs have been WGSL's and they have been wonderful dogs able to balance being great watch dogs with going to public stables and trail rides with strangers and strange loose dogs as well as being completely trustworthy with my farriors, feed delivery people, vets and even children that come to ride, I haven't had one bad Shepherd in close to 40 years!!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I saw an awful lot of nervy GSD back in the early 80's. Heck, my father never wanted one when we were growing up because he didn't trust them and felt they were mean and dangerous (I am a child of the 60's and 70's). He is a dog person and loves dogs. I am not sure if the problem has gotten worse or if we are just now far more exposed to the problems because the internet and these message boards have broadened our world. I had to look at a lot of litters and talk to a number of breeders to find my first dog. 

What I do see now is it is far harder to find good solid dogs for work and dogs with correct GSD temperament.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't see too many issues...I do see dogs that aren't up to MY standard when it comes to drive or temperament, but I wouldn't say they're problem dogs. The problem dogs are the ones that people are just plain too lazy to do any research on. They go to their local paper, craigslist, or whatever and find the first dog under $300. If you just do a google search on German Shepherd in my area you'll probably end up getting directed to my club and then find a very good shepherd for a family. Not one that will do schutzhund, not one that will excel at some other sport, but one that will be a very good family dog. Some of you don't agree with that, but that's the world we live in when it comes to GSDs. Everyone wants a dog that looks like their local K9 and Rin Tin Tin...but no one wants to do the work that comes along with a "working dog."

We get a few bad eggs at our club every once in a while...most of which come from pretty good breeders that just have a bad dog every once in a while and don't deal with it responsibly.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

*Temperament*
*The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very *_*serious faults.*


A portion from the AKC breed standard.

If most GSDs had the temperament shown above there would be very few problems from this breed. 

I've personally seen many that don't come close to what is written above.

Why?
_


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> The problem dogs are the ones that people are just plain too lazy to do any research on. They go to their local paper, craigslist, or whatever and find the first dog under $300.


This is not 100% true all of the time. I'm not a lazy person and when I decided I wanted another dog I did go to craigslist and happened to find my GSD and yes she was under $300. Yes I might have got lucky, but she is one heck of a dog. Her temperament is what its suppose to be per the standard. I did my research afterward and was shocked at what some dogs were like. The GSD club by me has nothing but dogs that are aggressive, and both my dog and I looked at them like they were crazy. I have never gone back because I didn't want my dog around dogs like that. I have put a lot of time in to my dog and I couldn't be prouder of her. That is not laziness, it was a choice.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

Verivus said:


> I can't say I agree abakerr. The average person should NOT have to do "research" on dogs for a year to find a *decent* dog. It's one thing if you want to compete in sports/show, then yeah I get it, but for the average person? I tried for 6 months and still did not end up with a healthy dog and I considered myself dog savvy and asked tons of people for their opinions.
> 
> For anyone "just getting into" GSDs there's just no possible way to gain information about lines that took breeders decades to obtain. It's even more impossible with all the misinformation that is floating around. Strangers who see my GSD, 9 times out of 10, will tell me how glad they are that my shepherd isn't so "sloped" and how the "slope contributes to HD", "GSDs are all mean", blah blah blah. It's ridiculous. I don't even respond anymore to those comments; I just nod my head and smile because I can't be bothered to explain again for the millionth time.


Are we talking temperament qualities or health problems of the breed in this thread? 

Regardless of how much research people do on a bloodline or cross, its foolish to say that they are somehow immune to the possibility of variability and I hope that wasn't the underlying tone of my previous post. There's always room for the opportunity of a thin nerved dog to crop up in a litter of projected good nerves, just as there is always room for the opportunity of bad hips to crop up in a litter of projected good hips. This type of unpredictability is not limited to dogs, this is life. I like to think that by doing your research, you minimize ( but certainly not eliminate) the risks involved and stack the odds in your favor. Do more research, better your odds. Most of the time it works out, sometimes it simply doesn't. That said, I feel like variability can be a two way street... Sometimes the most well balanced, stable, and healthy pet shepherd a person claims to have ever had has come from untitled and unregistered byb dogs found in the local paper. The odds are not favorable for this type of outcome under these circumstances but I'de be a liar to say its unheard of. Oh, the possibility in a world of possibilities. 

On a more specific note, I remember the kennel/ bloodlines your dog came out of when you initially posted him. If you don't mind me asking, H/D aside (and btw I remember how severe his X-rays were... Poor guy), how do you feel his temperament as an adult matches up with what you expected when you were considering the bloodlines?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> This is not 100% true all of the time. I'm not a lazy person and when I decided I wanted another dog I did go to craigslist and happened to find my GSD and yes she was under $300. Yes I might have got lucky, but she is one heck of a dog. Her temperament is what its suppose to be per the standard. I did my research afterward and was shocked at what some dogs were like. The GSD club by me has nothing but dogs that are aggressive, and both my dog and I looked at them like they were crazy. I have never gone back because I didn't want my dog around dogs like that. I have put a lot of time in to my dog and I couldn't be prouder of her. That is not laziness, it was a choice.


Yeah...but its true MOST of the time. I'm not judging you or your dog. My dog wasn't much more than $300. The only thing I cared about was working line and AKC registration when I got him. I, like you, got lucky. He's got an amazing temperament and is willing to do anything for me.

As to the comment about the temperament on the AKC website. Most of the dogs I see fit that description. I know we always judge dogs based on drive or what not...but who really knows which dogs would herd all day or do some other type of work all day. We don't allow our dogs to do that so who knows if they have it in them? Sure...they can't all be police dogs. But that's not the world we live in, we live in a world where 99% of dogs are pets.

But most of the dogs at my club have fine temperaments. They live full, happy lives in their families, and we don't generally have to deal with any kind of aggression issues. Some of these dogs can't pass the GSDCA temperament test because they won't walk over this, or that, but in general they are very good family pets.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I saw an awful lot of nervy GSD back in the early 80's. Heck, my father never wanted one when we were growing up because he didn't trust them and felt they were mean and dangerous (I am a child of the 60's and 70's). He is a dog person and loves dogs. I am not sure if the problem has gotten worse or if we are just now far more exposed to the problems because the internet and these message boards have broadened our world. I had to look at a lot of litters and talk to a number of breeders to find my first dog.
> 
> What I do see now is it is far harder to find good solid dogs for work and dogs with correct GSD temperament.


I've often wondered about this, are any of these problems really new? It also seems to me that every breed has these types of issues. I have been researching Aussies lately and there seems to be similar problems in that breed as well, people breeding for niches. You just need to connect with a breeder that likes and breeds for the qualities that you like. GSDs have a very obvious split between show and working, but that spilt is present these days in every working breed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I found this article one night, it was written in 1920 by Jay Hall. Besides having one of the earliest GSD breed standards (very interesting) he also said this (among other things)
*The well-bred Shepherd untrained for police use is an admirable companion, loyal, affectionate, well mannered, obedient and in no way savage or solitary. *
If you have time read the article (not very long) and see what you think. I think it shows how people (not all) perceive the breed today as compared to early on. 

*http://www.oldandsold.com/articles04/dogs65.shtml*
*

*


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I personally see the dogs getting more and more solid/stronger with sure temperaments as time goes. It's like comparing a 1920 automobile to a 2010 one in terms of performance and reliability, there is no match. But the good news is that if you still want a 1920 performance/reliability animal, they are still available.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Very interesting Whiteshepherds. 

I didn't see anything about fear aggression or submissive peeing in there.
Guess it wasn't excepted then.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

martemchik said:


> I don't see too many issues...I do see dogs that aren't up to MY standard when it comes to drive or temperament, but I wouldn't say they're problem dogs. The problem dogs are the ones that people are just plain too lazy to do any research on. They go to their local paper, craigslist, or whatever and find the first dog under $300.


Not necessarily. My dog had issues (reactivity, food allergies, etc) and she originally came from what was supposedly a good/reputable breeder, was purchased as a breeding and Sch prospect as a pup (not by me, I got her later). I've since heard other issues from people who got dogs from them, and there were problems with the breeder also (like not getting her papers). This is not a BYB or someone you find in the newspaper.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, IT IS THE FORUM!
It's not the breed, it's the FORUM. 
All those doomsday predictions are going seriously on my nerves. Yeah, there are bad dogs out there, there are horrible breeders but that is why every breed. 
A forum is a small melting pot but it doesn't necessarily represent the German Shepherd in the entire world, because many people, that have a solid GSD will never even show up on a Forum like this one. 

The breed is nowhere near doing as bad as everybody makes it sound because I, on the other hand, don't know about any of these kind of Shepherds that are portrayed on this forum, in my whole life I maybe met two or three of these type of dogs. So either people are just smarter about how they are managing them or the hype about downtalking the breed and producing something outlandish, is going above and beyond. There is no such thing as the perfect dog. It's a living being and not a machine. If you want something that doesn't react to anything at all, then get a stuffed puppet!

So don't let the Forum warp your view on the breed like it did with mine on cops shooting dogs.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, IT IS THE FORUM!
> It's not the breed, it's the FORUM.
> All those doomsday predictions are going seriously on my nerves. Yeah, there are bad dogs out there, there are horrible breeders but that is why every breed.
> A forum is a small melting pot but it doesn't necessarily represent the German Shepherd in the entire world, because many people, that have a solid GSD will never even show up on a Forum like this one.
> ...


Exactly. This forum is mostly dog owners are posting either behavior issues or health issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

there is good and bad in every breed , and every breed tends to change as the years go on , because you have breeders (new & old) who have changed their ideas of what that breed should be.

Honestly, I can probably name 5-6 + breeders off the top of my head that I would purchase a dog from, sight unseen and "know" I would get what I wanted. Some are on this forum , some are not.

I really don't think it's hard to find a good stable german shepherd, obviously research IS involved, but knowing what "you" (general you) want, being able to trust that breeder will pick what's right for your situation is key. 

While there are alot who post here with behavioral, health issues, they are seeking answers and that's what a forum is about correct? 

You can advise people on where / how to go about purchasing a puppy, in the end they are going to do what they want to do.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Maybe I've been lucky. I've rarely known a German Shepherd to be unstable, without good reason.
　
I've owned several German Shepherds and most of them were quite good.
　
The first German Shepherd I had, was what I would call a pistol. My grandfather got a German Shepherd that was trained for home security. He was stable, but he was a pistol all of the time. He was a loaded gun ready to go off and he had to be treated very carefully. He could be with kids, but the kids could not fight or play tag because if the dog perceived there to be fighting, the dog would try to subdue whoever seemed provocatively aggressive, and would defend those that seemed to be threatened. The dog had to be carefully introduced to company. The dog was a lawsuit ready to happen, but that's the way it was trained and conditioned. 
　
The most unstable dog I ever had. Was a German Shepherd that had been abused and had a very painful chronic ear infection. The dog had trust issues and fear aggressions; particularly with male adults, or older male juveniles, particularly of a certain race. I gather that it was abused by young males of that race. With the help of some friends, I was able to train the dog to not be fearful of that race, but it never fully got over its fear of young males. I put the dog down because it seemed to be suffering and I considered it a lawsuit waiting to happen. When she didn't have an ear infection, she was a very good stable dog. But this she had an ear infection, she became unstable because of the pain. If someone touched her near her ears she often acted out of fear and defensively; especially when it was causing her pain. Simply petting her on the head, could cause her excruciating pain. It was heartbreaking. The Shepherd that I ended up putting down because of a chronic ear infection. Before I got the dog it had been kept on a leash in a semi urban area, unsupervised during the day. The dog acted as if neighbors had thrown rocks and hit it with sticks. I'm almost sure that it was abused, because it was fearful and aggressive of young males, especially if they were holding sticks or rocks.
　
The rest of the dogs I have had have been extremely stable. It helps to screen them before you get them. I prefer dogs that have a family temperament. Most of my German Shepherds have been excellent with people and animals.
　
If you've habitually had problems with dogs being unstable, I would suspect that you or perhaps someone else in your family or neighbor is nurturing or causing the unstable behavior. If you put junk in, you get junk out. If a dog doesn't have a stable leader for doesn't have a stable environment; you can't expect the dog to be stable.
　
Not that I'm doubting that extreme breeding and puppy mill breeding is part of the problem. Unfortunately the puppy mills are more concerned about quantity, then quality. Most breeders nowadays, seem to be more concerned with appearances, rather than temperament and work dog characteristics. Regretfully many people seem to care more about pedigrees, then the actual characteristics of the dogs.
　
I don't think dogs with undesirable traits don't necessarily have to be culled, they need to be spayed and neutered before they breed. Regretfully many breeders that have dogs with famed pedigrees, breed dogs that have bad characteristics. Regretfully for many it's more about greed, then the breed. Breeders need to have better ethics.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> I saw an awful lot of nervy GSD back in the early 80's.


My first experience with a GSD (in the early 80s) was getting bitten in the face, broke skin in several spots!

Anyway....what I see is not so much that the *dogs* are bad or worse or not improving, but that *people* seem to have ideas about what a GSD is that just doesn't jive with what they truly are. I've had people ask for help finding a GSD and they want a very laid back, calm dog that is openly friend and loves socializing with other dogs at the dog park. If they see a GSD that is more aloof or heaven forbid shows some reasonable suspicion or social aggression, then they go off on how the breed is too nervy and vicious.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

For the most part I have been pleased with the German Shepherd breeds mental stability. I've had more problems with physical characteristics of health. 

I don't like the squaty hind end show look, I might be wrong but to me it screams dysplasia. I would prefer a more normal stance. Every dog that I've had with the show look, developed dysplasia early on.

I've had a lot of German Shepherds with dysplasia, tumors, or G.I. issues and one that had chronic ear infections.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, :thumbup:

I help teach Puppy classes so get to see a lot of puppies. We get some bad GSD puppies in the classes. Seems like the majority of the GSD pups are horrible. At least horrible to my standards. We also, though, get a lot of really bad examples of other breeds when I think about it. Maybe because we both love the GSD we are more sensitive to the bad pups that come into class. In all the years we have been doing this class, though, there have been only a few that were absolutely AWFUL. Being reactive to other dogs/puppies seems to be the worst issue we see, but there are two pups that I remember distinctly. One was terrified of everything. She was a genetic mess of nerves. The other just wanted to leave and wanted nothing to do with her people. She was fine with the other puppies, fine with us as touching her and stuff, but wanted little to do with her owners and was still that way as she grew up. While ths is probably a much easier issue to deal with than the terrified puppy it is still NOT correct for a GSD. 

As I said earlier, though, I saw these same types of dogs 30 plus years ago so I can't really say I am seeing more now other than I am exposed to a heck of a lot more dogs now than then.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I have seen numerous examples throughout my life of unstable GSDs with poor nerves. 

So I don't believe it's just the forum but if it is just the forum then every topic on here is not representative of reality.

Lisa my firs GSD back in my 20's, which was a long time ago had poor nerve and it was out of champion show dogs. It was re gifted to me from a very wealthy friend who could not keep it. 

So my point regardless of how long this has been going on, is that if the main goal of breeding was just aiming for what the standard calls for in temperament we would have few problems in the breed. 

A lot of breeders do not aim for the temperament but shoot for a certain look or to make the dog fit their chosen sport.

I don't need to be a breeder or a genius to know that when you aim for a particular characteristic at the expense of temperament something will give eventually.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

A number of people, including me, have talked about the difference in the dogs. There is a difference and mostly what has changed is the protective instinct in the dogs. I saw some very unstable dogs back in the 70s and 80s also, ( they have always been there and that has been stated before), but the good ones, were a little different than many of the "good ones" we see now. I think there are lots of "stable" GSDs but the reason they are stable is different. Many do not have the natural suspicion and protective instinct that they used to have. So, their view of the world is not the same. In order to have stable dogs who also have that protective instinct, IMO, you have to also have great nerves. It seems to me, that the dogs with really solid nerves , ( and the rest of what a GSD was intended to be), are becoming harder to find. 


Of course, the people who have been around for five years will argue and say how much better the dogs are now vs 30 years ago, since they never saw those dogs. It really is something you would have to see the difference in but I will say, it is harder to try to breed the kind of dog I just talked about. I think that has always been the case but people now do not seem to understand what is missing. That's the people factor that Lies talked about and many of those people are now training in SchH and breeding dogs. Many, completely mistake defense behaviors with a real protective instinct and I mean where it is very clear, who and what the dog is protecting and that it is in fact, protection.... not a dog who views it as a safe game. Where the dog has the genetic ability to understand what is to be protected and when.


When you try to get it all in one dog, ( meaning what the standard calls for), that's when you have to know what you are doing and even then, mistakes can be made. Most people do not have the experience necessary to accomplish it and then you have the people factor again, where someone takes a dog THEY are not genetically designed to handle. 

The problem with this forum is also fueled by some of these kinds of threads. I used to think I was helping people to understand but now I think what people take away from some of these threads is far different than what we are trying to tell them. Everything becomes unstable in their eyes or like I said, they think a GSD is really stable because basically , he is too friendly and views the world like other breeds do. Also, a protective instinct is not just barking at the door. All of this has been talked about ad naseum but people only hear what they want to hear, so, that's where we are....in my opinion.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Anne, please, please, please don't give up teaching and posting about this. It is people/ breeders like yourself that do make a huge difference in educating. I'm sure it gets overly frustrating for you and others with such great passion for this remarkable breed but it needs to be repeated constantly.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Anne, I agree with you and specifically this:



> Everything becomes unstable in their eyes or like I said, they think a GSD is really stable because basically , he is too friendly and views the world like other breeds do. Also, a protective instinct is not just barking at the door. .
> __________________


To many people want a golden retreiver temperament in a gsd body and I also agree with the above post, while I may not understant alot in regards to schutzhund, I enjoy reading your posts and wisdom when it comes to good dogs


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

julie87 said:


> Exactly. This forum is mostly dog owners are posting either behavior issues or health issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I joined this forum before I got my dog, though. So I would have been here either way...if I'd ended up with a dog with issues or not I still would have been posting.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Maybe I've been lucky. I've rarely known a German Shepherd to be unstable, without good reason.


Me too and I grew up with dozens and dozens and dozens of dogs. My family bred through the Alphabet three times and if you take an average of 5 per litter, that's over 300 dogs, not speaking of brood bitches, males, dogs that came in to be trained, that were bought and sold, etc. 
And most of the time it was more than five pups, sometimes less. 
So this is just an estimate. 

Were there weak nerved dogs? Absolutely, but I barely got in contact with these kind of dogs at all. Maybe it's because my parents had such a high standard or maybe I selectively remember. 

However, people don't even know the difference between a "protective" and "fear aggressive" dog. So how do you expect them to make a sound judgement what the heart of the dog truly is?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Perhaps some of you who have been raised around GSDs your entire life or those active in Schutzhund and other sports need to get out more. 

I have an example that happened this morning. Zena was barking so my wife went out to see what was up. It was one of our neighbors walking his black GSD of unknown (to us) origin. He asked about Zena and my wife asked about his dog. He said she was really sweet but afraid of everything, meaning dogs and people. 

If this was an isolated example in the real world away from Schutzhund and those who are surrounded with very sound dogs, then it wouldn't be worth mentioning. My experience in the pet population is that it is not uncommon at all.

Quote Mrs. K However, people don't even know the difference between a "protective" and "fear aggressive" dog. So how do you expect them to make a sound judgement what the heart of the dog truly is? 

You should be more clear as to who that quote is directed at and how you know who those people are. Just for clarity.

This is a German Shepherd forum and my main interest is the breed. Breeding, Training, and Temperament.

My thread may not be as exciting as (What kind of Soda one drinks) or (The Wedding Thread) but I thought it was an appropriate topic.

Anne: Thanks for your usual common sense approach and for sharing your knowledge with us and if you don't post often anymore I sure do understand why.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Perhaps some of you who have been raised around GSDs your entire life or those active in Schutzhund and other sports need to get out more.


Need to get out more? I don't know how much more out I could have possibly been exposed to the breed. Yeah, I have not been exposed to BYB's and I am glad I wasn't! Why would you want to be exposed to crap breeding like that? Plus I've been travelling a lot in and around NY for SAR purposes and I've seen a lot of SAR dogs, mainly Shepherds and those I've seen were good quality dogs. Solid dogs. I've only seen two dogs that shouldn't be doing it. One is a Shepherd, the other one a lab. 

I've seen two American pet line Shepherds that had no drive whatsoever but that's what the owners wanted them for and other than that nothing special. Just one single dog that I didn't trust but the owner has done an excellent job with working that dog. 



> You should be more clear as to who that quote is directed at and how you know who those people are. Just for clarity.


Do I really have to clarify that? Come on... 



> My thread may not be as exciting as (What kind of Soda one drinks) or (The Wedding Thread) but I thought it was an appropriate topic.


Never even looked into one of those


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while I do think one can find a well balanced dog..Your not alone Andy, I've seen alot of unstable dogs I wouldn't want over the years. So yes they are out there, do I see a 'growth' of them? Not really only because I'm not as involved in the clubs/showing aspect any more so I don't see to many to begin with 

Of course I read about them all the time via the net, people with issues, and one can only wonder is it genetics? is it bad training? uneducated owners? bad placement? I think it can be any of the above.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If it weren't for pet homes Breeders could close up shop. 

The amount of people involved in Schutzhund, SAR, PSA or anything else you can think of are a small fraction of the GSD population.

I have no proof but I would guess that at a minimum 80% of all GSDs are pets. So who do you think winds up with the dogs that have lousy nerves.
Most venues won't allow a dog with bad nerve to even attempt SAR so where do you (general you) think those dogs go. ? 

I don't do Schutzhund but if a dog appears not up to it where does it go? 

Pet homes.

When I say get out more I mean visit some pet people and see if you find the kind of dogs many of you speak of.

If people are only concerned about finding the type of GSD they want and don't care about the breed over all, I don't know what to say.

It's kind of like living in a mansion and not believing there are very many homeless because there are none on your street.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> while I do think one can find a well balanced dog..Your not alone Andy, I've seen alot of unstable dogs I wouldn't want over the years. So yes they are out there, do I see a 'growth' of them? Not really only because I'm not as involved in the clubs/showing aspect any more so I don't see to many to begin with
> 
> Of course I read about them all the time via the net, people with issues, and one can only wonder is it genetics? is it bad training? uneducated owners? bad placement? I think it can be any of the above.


I agree that there are other factor beside breeding. Breeding is however, the base from which everything else relies.

If you get a dog that is unsound, unstable, bad nerves it can be worked with but will never have the positive characteristics that most desire.

Doesn't mean it's a bad dog but one you may need to watch very carefully for its life.

A stable dog even with a mediocre owner will still be stable.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

IMO unless you experienced life around a well bred balanced German shepherd from the 60s or 70s, one's mindset is limited as to what this breed is suppose to be. Like Anne said, there was something "different" about those dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Doc but I'm only too aware that my mind is "limited" in many areas.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I ran into an old aquintance a while back at an agility trial, turns out she has a WL dog from the same breeder I got Odin from. So we got to talking, she said that her dog was such a nerve bag that it couldn't compete in agility, scared of its own shadow etc etc. I ran into her again about a month later at a park and spent about 5 minuttes chatting, her dog was on leash, mine were still in the car. It took 5 minutes for me to think "ohhh, your dog is fine, YOU are the problem." Everything the dog looked at or alerted to, the handler REACTED to "what was that???" "Did you see something that scared you??" etc. Do that over an over again to an alert dog and soon you have a dog that needs to be medicated to be in public. 

I don't consider a GSD to be a beginner dog and in the hands of very beginner people (or people just not suited to the breed) I think you will see problems. Now obviously its not always the handler, I have met plenty of dogs that had a screw or two loose. But just something to think about.

The breeder I got Odin from pumps out at least a dozen litters of puppies per year, (which is why I didn't get a second dog from her) so I have a few trainer friends that get a lot of her dogs in their classes and for private training. Same thing, dogs are way too much for the handlers, out of control, reactive etc. All of the trainers that I know say the same thing, the dogs are just too much for the particualr handlers. All of her dogs that go to experienced handlers turn out pretty awesome (Odin included)


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