# Tracking issue driving me nuts!



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My dog tracks left..... He starts a track beautifully, then at some time during the track, usually when I start to smile thinking "we HAVE this!", he starts to veer off to the left. Still apparently tracking, and if I did not know where the track was, I would not even mess with him.

This started about 3 months ago. I quit tracking for about a month. Brought him back out as a baby, food in every step. That was screwing him up as my handling was not clear enough to get him to eat every piece, so he would pass, then backup. 

So we went to food every 3rd step, much better. But still veers off and comes back.

He is pretty handler sensitive, a verbal "No" when he is off smelling the roses is more than enough usually, and if I get frustrated ( I know, handler issue) and use a more irritated "No" he comes back to me and starts offering behaviors. Then the rest of the track is pretty much ruined.

If you have had or seen this issue..... please give me some input!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How old is he, how many tracks do you run per week, how windy is it when you are tracking, how are you laying the track, what type of vegetation and how long has he been tracking? Also, when he veers off the track how far is he going, does he self correct back to the track or are you helping? Are you tracking with the line going straight to his collar, under one leg, straight under his body and how far away from him are you?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

He is 2 coming on 3.

Lately we track 4-5 days a week. (did some puppy tracks, but did not start really tracking until he was a year. We would track for a few months, then not for a few months). 
Today as an example: No wind, park style shortish grass, dew. First leg about 100 paces, got to the end before he started to veer. Brought him back, made the turn nicely.... then just started left. I got frustrated, so started coming back to me.

I am pulling him back on when he gets more than a body length off the track. I have let him go farther, and he showed no real signs of coming back on his own. He did start quartering for a while, but now seems to prefer left.

Until about 2 months ago, he was tracking in a harness. When this became an issue, I swapped to the fursaver, line under a leg. Kind of freaked him out at first as he is pretty sensitive to collar corrections. That first day, I ended up snapping two lines to his collar, one under each leg, to "steady" him. Since then, just one line.

In the past he has tracked different types of vegetation, over gravel roads, through drainage ditches. No food drops. Article indication was easy-peasy. (he has been blowing off articles now- kind of hard to find them when you aren't on the track.)
Because he seemed to really be good at it, I probably pushed him too fast. 

So when I started seeing issues, I backed up. But I am still seeing issues.

I track by myself, so likely have "taught" him this inadvertently. He has a SUPER nose, can find hidden objects and missing children (my daughter). But following a track is proving difficult to train.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> He is pretty handler sensitive, a verbal "No" when he is off smelling the roses is more than enough usually, and if I get frustrated ( I know, handler issue) and use a more irritated "No" he comes back to me and starts offering behaviors. Then the rest of the track is pretty much ruined.


Here is your answer.^^^^

I can't remember the last time I verbally corrected any of my dogs on the track. Or with the leash. The only time I will correct my dog is if he quits and he must REALLY quit before I do. 

Talking by the handler causes the majority of problems in tracking. It is disruptive for the dog. The best advise I can offer you is to learn to be quiet, ( completely quiet and that includes encouragement), and let your dog work the track. The reason I say even encouragement is because most people will do that first, before they get mad at the dog. The dogs figure out pretty fast that any talking means trouble, so, be quiet.

What you are describing, the tracking to the side of the track, can be stress and avoidance and in this case, I am bettting it is.

The idea of food in every foot step is a mistake, if you ask me. That is for beginning dogs and should not continue past the initial training. It is never a good idea to stop the dog and demand that he eat the food. It can cause confusion and block his drive...resulting in behavior that you are describing.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I figure it must be avoidance. 

Sooooo, when he goes off track, what sould be my "reply?" Stand stock still and ignore him? Under the assumption that he will eventually return to the track and work it?

God it is hard to be quiet and quit "helping" my dog!

BTW--- he did seem to track better with no food on the track.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You need to make yourself "small" Mary. You cannot be this big , angry, imposing menace walking behind your dog and that is what you are saying here. Pulling the dog back on the track worries him and for sure getting angry does. That is simply disasterous during tracking.

If he leaves the track, you should stop moving forward and be quiet. Let him look for it and when he hits the track again, start moving forward.. It will take some time because you have already damaged some trust here. The quiet part is the most important but you can't be yanking him around either. Tracking is done in a lower state of drive than the other phases. Therefore, you can easily become a prroblem for your dog . Be small when you are handling him, so he can think. He is too worried about what you are going to do next.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

gagsd said:


> .... First leg about 100 paces, got to the end before he started to veer. Brought him back, made the turn nicely.... then just started left. I got frustrated, so started coming back to me.


I wonder if I started to tense up anticipating "will he make the turn?" Which caused his cute little avoidance technique of leaving the track????

This dog is going to teach me to be a better handler, for sure.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I can guarantee you that he will be extremely relieved when you shut up. lol. I had to learn this myself and it does work.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Vandal said:


> I can guarantee you that he will be extremely relieved when you shut up. lol. I had to learn this myself and it does work.


I laugh way too much when "talking" with you!

I never thought about it, but I talk a LOT when I am nervous or anxious. Betting I am doing the same thing on the track. Also betting that I am tensing up on the line when we approach more difficult things like change of cover, turns etc.

Am I the only one who needs to type things out and get input from others to gain salf-awareness??


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I wonder if I started to tense up anticipating "will he make the turn?" Which caused his cute little avoidance technique of leaving the track????


Most people will start talking to their dog when they get to the corner or , if they can be quiet, they will make a subtle, ( or not so subtle), change in how they handle the line, usually they will start to "steer". If the dog even looks the other way, he is corrected or the talking that preceeds the correction starts up.

I remember helping someone with tracking some years back. Their dog would go the opposite direction and then circle on the corner. The handler was there yaking away at the dog and it was clear, ( to me anyway), that the handler was causing all of it. I told him to be quiet on the next corner, whereupon the dog nailed it, same on the next one and the next one. The handler was shocked but if you think about it, the talking puts the dog in another state of mind. Sometimes, it brings the drive up , sometimes it takes the drive away but in both cases, the dog will show it in his behavior. When the dog is working at the right drive level, they work really well. When you disrupt that drive level, you will have problems.

Edited to add: It is much easier to disrupt the dog's drive in tracking than the other phases but what I said applies to everything in dog training. The handling is just extremely important.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you for this!! I am just starting Jax in tracking and I noticed that if I just stand back, she'll work the scent box. If I even so much as softly say "good", her head comes up and she stops working. Mouth shut...loose leash..WILL DO!!!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I can guarantee you that he will be extremely relieved when you shut up. lol. I had to learn this myself and it does work.


I have been going over this same issue with my dog. I am much too tense. I literally have to do some calming breathing exercises before going out to track because otherwise Aiden totally freaks out, and he is an amazing tracker! It's tough, but we gotta do it.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> ... Mouth shut...loose leash..WILL DO!!!


Harder than you might think!
I never talked on the track. Until Ari started quartering. Not sure why that started. Dry, windy, difficult conditions. 
But rather than leaving him to figure it out, I worried. 
"OMG.... He's not on the track!!!"

So I made the conscious decision to use verbal praise when he was correct. Well, for me, verbal praise was followed soon by verbal correction. I thought I could steer him into correctness with my voice. Has not worked too well. 
And I did not even realize it until posting this thread. I would have kept getting stronger with my voice, then probably saying a leash correction was in order.... and never realizing I needed correction, not the dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Keeping my mouth shut is NEVER easy!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Boy do I know that feeling!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

gagsd said:


> I never thought about it, but I talk a LOT when I am nervous or anxious. Betting I am doing the same thing on the track. Also betting that I am tensing up on the line when we approach more difficult things like change of cover, turns etc.
> 
> Am I the only one who needs to type things out and get input from others to gain salf-awareness??


I always liken it to driving. You know how you have to turn down the radio when you are trying to get through a super busy intersection, that's how I think it must be for dogs when they are tracking. Even though the noise has nothing to do with smelling, it just needs to be gone. 

And, no you are not the only one who gains self-awarness from posting, works for me every time .


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Glad to know that Annette! I think part of it is I want to trial..... and soon. So am anxious, but also hyper critical. Not a good combination, especially with a dog like Ari, who knows what I am about to be feeling.

I really should not track alone all of the time.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> And I did not even realize it until posting this thread. I would have kept getting stronger with my voice, then probably saying a leash correction was in order.... and never realizing I needed correction, not the dog.


This is the case 99.9% of the time. I wish I could video all the sessions I do with just the ordinary people who come here with their pet dogs. I could put up a five hour tape with every single, ( smart), person commenting on how it is so much more about THEM than the dog. 

The good trainers understand or learn to understand just how important they are. The others just never get it and unfortunately, the dogs pay for that, since they are always who these people blame for their inadequacies.

The dogs want to do what we ask, it is a question of how clear we make it for them. The first question should always be "what am "I" not doing right here?".


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I think part of it is I want to trial..... and soon


Another poisonous thing to allow. High expectations.....I'd be working to eliminate that thinking , along with the talking.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

The "T" Method of Tracking Training Theory:
No Talking, No Thinking.... just Training.
Teehee


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I've noticed our tracking is best when one dog is checking the other dogs track for scraps when I'm busy at the truck and there is no leash, command, and it's just a hungry dog looking for hotdogs


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I never realized just how much we as handlers influence our dogs' tracking. Last year was very revealing for me, as I was tracking both dogs, ususally on the same day, in the same area. In the past, it was easy to make excuses for keeta, because well, she isn't a real working dog, she's just a mutt, she doesn't have the same drives and focus as the GSD's, and so on. 

Then I was running into the same issues and challenges with Gryffon that I had with Keeta. On similar days, where I would lay their tracks in similar fashion, they would perform in similar ways - either both would nail all their corners and track in a single-minded focuses way, or both would be distracted and sloppy. It really opened my eyes that I was the main influence in their tracking style, not just in general, but day-to-day, for each track. I'm not sure what are all the little things that I am doing that bring this out, but it completely changed my thinking from the dog being a certain type of tracker and that is all we can expect out of him/her, to me being a certain type of trainer/handler that has full influence on how my dogs perform. 

Now only if I could have a magic mirror that would tell me exactly what it is that I am doing or not doing that affect my dogs so much!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> I never realized just how much we as handlers influence our dogs' tracking. Last year was very revealing for me, as I was tracking both dogs, ususally on the same day, in the same area. In the past, it was easy to make excuses for keeta, because well, she isn't a real working dog, she's just a mutt, she doesn't have the same drives and focus as the GSD's, and so on.
> 
> Then I was running into the same issues and challenges with Gryffon that I had with Keeta. On similar days, where I would lay their tracks in similar fashion, they would perform in similar ways - either both would nail all their corners and track in a single-minded focuses way, or both would be distracted and sloppy. It really opened my eyes that I was the main influence in their tracking style, not just in general, but day-to-day, for each track. I'm not sure what are all the little things that I am doing that bring this out, but it completely changed my thinking from the dog being a certain type of tracker and that is all we can expect out of him/her, to me being a certain type of trainer/handler that has full influence on how my dogs perform.
> 
> Now only if I could have a magic mirror that would tell me exactly what it is that I am doing or not doing that affect my dogs so much!


That's why I video record virtually everything. I go back through and mark everytime my time was off, my correction was too high or low, I missed a marking opportunity, giving a cue, etc


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have noticed that the people who have the most difficulty with tracking are those who come from a competitive obedience background (and also people who competed with horses). It can be very very difficult for them to let the dog work without micromanaging every step of the track.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I find, that when I get stressed, I revert to my "foundation" training. 
I learned to train dogs with the Find-a-Bigger-Stick method.

I did also ride event and dressage horse for years.

Now I just have to see if I can get him on the right track without my "assistance."

Lucia, that magic mirror is called hindsight I think!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Mary, I come from both an obedience and competitive horse background. Letting go in tracking was tough when I first started.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Most people need to develop an "inner calmness" when they work their dogs. It is a real human trait to try to put behaviors INTO the dogs vs developing the feel to bring behaviors out. If that doesn't make sense to you, you'll have to think about it more and maybe you will understand. People have a tendency to try to force the issue...in just about everything. It is that control freak behavior that people who are attracted to animals seem to have in large doses. The good trainers learn to control that aspect of themselves. 
It is funny you mention horses because while I am not competing , or intend to compete, I have found training horses has made me better at training my dogs. You can look at line handling in tracking maybe the same way you look at the reins. You have people who just hang on the reins and yank the poor horse all over the place ...getting limited results and usually a stressed out horse who starts to fight it....and then you have the ones who look like they are doing nothing and the horse is there responding like it is magic. It is feel and sensitivity that the good trainers have. It is not about imposing your will on the dogs. We all have to learn it and like I said before, many never do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My struggle with Pan is when his pace is too hectic and/or he's veering off and I stop to wait for him to find the track, that distracts him even without me saying something. He hits the end of the lead, looks back at me like I corrected him (nope) and then just stands there or will lie down. I fully believe our issue is due to age and lack of experience. He's young, and we have not tracked much at all. But it's still kind of frustrating for me. I'm trying to help him by not helping him (and I'm not really worried about this, as he does show me drive for tracking) but I end up giving him mixed signals and interrupting his drive anyway.... we had a REALLY bad track earlier this week but I laughed it off. The conditions were bad even for a good dog, and terrible for a young, inexperienced dog. I ended up getting Nikon out (wasn't planning to track him) and letting him re-run Pan's track, lol. He did much better since Pan left more than half the bait and I'd traipsed on it twice, but still wasn't anything to brag about!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think line handling in tracking is a real skill. I can't say that my dogs "hit the end of the lead" when I stop. Usually, ....if my dog is having difficulty on the track, I am closer on the line and handling it a certain way . Meaning, I make certain I do not allow the leash to correct him. Maybe I'd have to see what you are talking about but if he is really "hitting the end", then for him, you did correct him, whether you will admit that you did or not.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So, I went to pickup the child from school, and decided to lay a track on the way. I know, 3PM, but we track whenever.

Laid a very "clean" track. No start/end flags, no scent pad, no food, no scuffing, no articles, no turns. Just 300 feet of normal pace with an article at the end, and a silent and small (if happy) handler at the end of a 12 ft line.

Ari started beautifully, about 1/2 way down started to veer off.... to the Right! I did nothing, just stopped and he came right back to the track. Head never came off of the ground.
Not a lot of leash pressure, but if I had let him, we would have run that track.

Now, to do that over and over.

Interestingly, someone told me last month that I was "making him crazy" in protection, with the type of obedience work I was doing. Just goes to show how so many times all 3 phases are affected by the same things.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

After reading this thread, I'm curious as to how Karlo will track tomorrow. I'll be quiet, no praise and will stay closer with the line. He is not real committed to the track and articles aren't a huge reward for him. His last track was bad, he blew two out of 8 articles and then tried to pee on some taller grass right after we did a turn. I'm going back to three short straight tracks, no articles and food jackpot at the end. We'll see how he does with such a simple layout. Because we tracked in spongy wet clay ground I wondered if it had anything to do with anything. Tomorrow will be the same wet ground-but the grass is growing so it won't be such short new grass of the season, it is raining buckets today. 


> Just goes to show how so many times all 3 phases are affected by the same things


I sure know that!!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Just goes to show how so many times all 3 phases are affected by the same things


You mean by the same person don't ya?

Why are you removing the articles Jane?
Also, what is his motivation for tracking and what is his reward for finding the articles? What do you do when he misses an article?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

His motivation for tracking is not there, he's not committed or dedicated. I feed him from my hand when he indicates and he gets a raw meal jackpot at the end. 
Though he does like to track. He just isn't tunnel visioned on it(too aware of his surroundings).
We've only tracked a few times since November so I'm backing up some. When he missed the articles the other day he was casting and I knew he missed one but wasn't aware til he indicated the next and it wasn't the black one. MY bad, for not knowing. 

Then Dianna who was with me, went back to get the missed one and found another. When he has missed articles in the past, I circle him and reset with search command. Dianna suggested to go back to short tracks, no articles and some food for the next couple tracks. I tend to make them too complicated, and the season change is already challenging with the new grass waking up. I just need to track more.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I think line handling in tracking is a real skill. I can't say that my dogs "hit the end of the lead" when I stop. Usually, ....if my dog is having difficulty on the track, I am closer on the line and handling it a certain way . Meaning, I make certain I do not allow the leash to correct him. Maybe I'd have to see what you are talking about but if he is really "hitting the end", then for him, you did correct him, whether you will admit that you did or not.


He just pulls so hard, it's like he shoots forward, then stops to eat bait (or hits the end of the line). I like some pressure on the line, but I don't like being dragged, having to dig in my heels, or the constant start, stop, start, stop. I only track him with an 8' leash, under his front leg, and I'm standing next to him so I can (try) to control the pace and see what he's doing. If the conditions are really nice and/or we've been tracking consistently, I give him a bit more line. It's like he has so much drive to track, but he doesn't know what to do with it. He's 75lbs muscling forward but doing puppy type tracks. I definitely don't need to lift weights! But in any case, I think it's an issue of inconsistency. We tracked earlier this week and before that the last time we tracked was early February. I would have tracked this evening (and the conditions are much better) but the extreme weather changes give me migraines so I'm on the couch tonight.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't see how taking the articles away is going to fix your article problem Jane....lol...might feel like it did though. Sometimes that's not a bad thing...  . 


What did you use to motivate him to track when you first started training? Food? Does he have lots of food drive? What do you think your dog likes the most? Food? Praise, play? Which one?

You say he likes to track....how do you know that? What is he doing that gives you that impression? I ask because you seem to be contradicting yourself. He is not motivated but he likes to track....I don't quite get what you are saying. If he is too interested in his surroundings, there is either a nerve issue or there is not enough interest in the track, ( doesn't like tracking ). Just making them shorter is not going to change that. You have to find a way to make the track more interesting, more enjoyable etc. 
Has he been corrected on the track? How did you teach articles? Off the track, guide him into a down? Corrected him to down? How? 


If you are placing a "food jackpot" at the end, IMO, you are working against yourself. You want him to really like the articles, not to really like the end of the track.

Do you praise him at the articles or just hand him the food?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I know what you are saying Lies. I have had dogs who did that. Some of them, I just put up for a while instead of trying to fight that behavior. Whether I did or not depended on whether it improved with more consistency on my part...meaning tracking at least three or four times a week. Usually, that does make a big difference but sometimes, it does seem to be age related.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I know what you are saying Lies. I have had dogs who did that. Some of them, I just put up for a while instead of trying to fight that behavior. Whether I did or not depended on whether it improved with more consistency on my part...meaning tracking at least three or four times a week. Usually, that does make a big difference but sometimes, it does seem to be age related.


What also seems to help him are longer tracks so he has the chance to settle down and get into a rhythm. I didn't track with him for a long time because he was just SO happy and hyper and distracted by every little thing...not like he didn't show drive for tracking, he did, but it would be like three seconds dragging my butt down the track, then an ooo shiny moment following a leaf, then OMG TRACK!! and back to dragging me down the track. Everything is so much fun for Pan we battle constant mind explosions. Same day we tracked earlier this week, I got him out for his turn to do obedience and he lasted about 10 seconds. It's never an issue of drive or motivation but keeping him calm and focused. Given his age I'd rather just have a laugh and put him away for the remainder than fight with him. When he is not so crazy high and tracks well he really looks nice so I know it's there.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal said:


> *I don't see how taking the articles away is going to fix your article problem Jane....lol...might feel like it did though. Sometimes that's not a bad thing...  .*
> Last week we tracked in the evening, and Karlo did well in winds and very short dry grass. He indicated all the articles that night.
> Peeing after the turn the other morning was much more of an issue. I verbally corrected him and yanked him back out of surprise. That was after he blew the two articles.
> *
> ...


Personally I love to track and am challenged to find the time and grounds to do it. I wish I had a field nearby, I'd track much more often. Now with longer daylight, I'll commit to do it as often as I can. 

Sorry Mary, for getting your thread off track!

Anne, thank you for your insight, much appreciated!!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

No apology needed! I am learning from other comments.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jane, I have found at times that too many articles can work against us. Try using only a couple of articles with one being at the end for now. 

Lies, hopefully you can get a chance to track with me and we can come up with some ideas for Pan (it may also just be a young goofy male issue). I have found that my driviest tracking dogs come into themselves in their 4 year old year. It is as though they start to mature and are able to channel their drive into the track instead of just going.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think we might be tracking on Sunday. Pan is so funny, I was laughing because at the end of his track I had dropped the food container with the remainder of the food, and when he got to it he flipped it aside with his nose and tried to keep tracking. Sometimes I just don't know what he wants. He LOVES food and will do all sorts of things for food, but it's like bait on the track is some sort of trick he's not going to fall for.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

LOL I use a ball at the end of Deja's track and for a long time she would check it out and then follow my path off of the field. She loves to track (though not always what I want to track). It will come. With Deja articles helped her a lot because they gave her something to search for besides food. Over time the food did become more important, but I think she finds the articles rewarding.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lisa - do you leave the ball right at the end of the track or have it in your pocket? I had Jax's in my pocket tonight so if she picked up the track, got to the "jackpot" then she got her ball as the big reward.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Jane, I have found at times that too many articles can work against us. Try using only a couple of articles with one being at the end for now.


I'll have one at the end, and a loaded scent box to start. I'm going to use cat kibble instead of the over used natural balance and string cheese. 
This better be just a glitch in our(my) training and not something that has to be fussed with every week Thanks Lisa!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> Lisa - do you leave the ball right at the end of the track or have it in your pocket? I had Jax's in my pocket tonight so if she picked up the track, got to the "jackpot" then she got her ball as the big reward.


It depends on the dog. Deja it is always there. I will have an article and then another 20 paces will be the ball. Vala it varies. Donovan usually ends on a can of sardines. Sometimes I'll have the ball with me. Sometimes I don't. Once in a very great while (usually when I forget the sardines) I will end the track with a ball.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Sometimes I just don't know what he wants. He LOVES food and will do all sorts of things for food, but it's like bait on the track is some sort of trick he's not going to fall for


 
I have seen this with some of the dogs I have trained as well. They enjoy the track itself. Nowadays, people have such a hard time believing that dogs bred to do certain jobs will get satisfaction from doing what they were bred to do. Sure, all animals eat but GSDs were not bred to just eat. 

Might be that Pan gets drive satisfaction from tracking, as in following the scent. He likes it. This is what is at the core of genetic obedience, which everyone thinks is simply flashy obedience. It isn't. It is drive satisfaction, where the dog gets satisfaction from simply doing the activity. It is instinctual. We don't hang bait bags on sheep to get the dogs to herd, they come with that instinct already there. 
Believe it or not, SchH used to be about putting the dogs genetic drives and instincts on display, not simply about "training" using food and ball drive. What has suffered the most in this new mentality of training behaviors into the dogs, is the protective instinct but it is also true in the other phases as well. People now have a hard time understanding that not everything comes about thru the use of food and toys. Some dogs still work simply for the satisfaction they get in doing the work. Not many seem to recognize it and many actually fight against it.


This was why I asked Jane what motivates her dog. Maybe, he simply likes to track but she keeps interrupting his desire to do so with food, too many articles etc. Many times, the dogs who really enjoy tracking will have issues with articles. They are kind of carried away by the scent on the track and the articles have no significance. Like food, they can become an interruption and then sometimes, the handlers make it worse by adding corrections or stress when an article appears. With dogs like this, you have to be smart, where you shift some of that interest in the track to the article. How the article is introduced for dogs like this makes a huge difference in how interested they are in them. Also, the handler's behavior when the article is indicated can make a big difference in how the dogs view them. Sometimes, you should simply have a party there with the dog and really let him know how happy you are he found it. Simply handing him food, ( which he may not care about in this situation), is not enough. His food drive is not what is motivating him, so, offering him food is not really a reward. 

You have to really ask yourself what motivates your dog and that should never be limited to just food or toys. The preferred way of teaching tracking for SchH nowadays is all about food 99% of the time. I find it hard to believe that every dog is motivated this way and that's when you start seeing people use force. They think their dog is not a good tracker when in fact, they are not reading their dog correctly.


I see this determination to use food and toys in every single phases of SchH now. People think they are being humane but for me, being nice to your dog is about learning who he is, not just doing something that makes you feel good.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Vandal said:


> This was why I asked Jane what motivates her dog. Maybe, he simply likes to track but she keeps interrupting his desire to do so with food, too many articles etc. Many times, the dogs who really enjoy tracking will have issues with articles. They are kind of carried away by the scent on the track and the articles have no significance. Like food, they can become an interruption and then sometimes,* the handlers make it worse by adding corrections or stress when an article appears.* With dogs like this, you have to be smart, where you shift some of that interest in the track to the article. How the article is introduced for dogs like this makes a huge difference in how interested they are in them. Also, the handler's behavior when the article is indicated can make a big difference in how the dogs view them. Sometimes, you should simply have a party there with the dog and really let him know how happy you are he found it. Simply handing him food, ( which he may not care about in this situation), is not enough. His food drive is not what is motivating him, so, offering him food is not really a reward.


Here you are talking right about me!!!!
Now I have a lot of thought to do....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I have seen this with some of the dogs I have trained as well. They enjoy the track itself. Nowadays, people have such a hard time believing that dogs bred to do certain jobs will get satisfaction from doing what they were bred to do. Sure, all animals eat but GSDs were not bred to just eat.
> 
> Might be that Pan gets drive satisfaction from tracking, as in following the scent. He likes it.


Could be.... I mean, I really HOPE so because that's what I want, a dog that does things for the pure sake of doing it (or doing it with me). He certainly does flyball simply for the sake of doing it!

I have a good friend whose dog has always been a super tracker. V score in tracking and this is her first dog (not her first GSD or her first SchH dog but her first dog ever). Like you say, he has always struggled with articles. He can do them off the track just fine, and was not trained to track or to indicate with pressure, but on a track he just wants to track. He often pauses at the article for a second or two and keeps going. In trial it's not a question of whether the dog will track, whether he can stay on track, but if he will indicate articles.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> In trial it's not a question of whether the dog will track, whether he can stay on track, but if he will indicate articles.


No, he still has to track. lol. 

It can be much easier to teach articles if people would simply open themselves up to what is now a different way of doing things but used to be the norm. Many of the ideas people now call "old school" were simply smart.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When I first learned to track we used no food. The motivation was to track and find something. Problem I ran into doing things that way is the "sport" wants and rewards a very artificial tracking style. Food, for the most part, is the easiest way to teach what is now required. I personally HATE baiting every foot step so I get away from that fairly quickly and use random food drops and then eventually articles to reinforce what I want to see with my dog. 

The skill in tracking is finding what motivates your dog and not trying to force each dog to fit a certain training method. I am lucky, I have tracked more than a dozen dogs and of those only one lacked sufficient food and/or hunt drive. She lacked in other areas too.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Lies, I read that last sentence you wrote as a general statement, not about that individual dog. Ooops. . Disregard...

I think in SchH tracking many make the mistake of making it about just tracking and following a scent to a pile of food. In SAR, in detection work, in police tracking, there is always a goal introduced at the beginning of the training. The dog is searching for SOMETHING. I have said it before but I'll say it again, I have never understood not having an article there from the get go in SchH tracking. It makes no sense and it reinforces the behavior of just following the scent without a goal. Used to be, we started SchH tracking the same way many of the police trainers do, or maybe now it is did.....since some of those people have lots their minds as well.

The best tracking dogs I have ever trained...the ones who would not quit and fought to stay on the track and had no problem indicating articles....were the ones I introduced tracking by tying them out, showing them something they liked...ball, tug whatever....and walking down the track waving it. Placed it about 25 paces down the track, walked back on the track to the dog. Dog dragged me to the object and then we played. Tied the dog back up, walked down the same track, past where I laid the object the first time, another 25 paces, showed the dog and put it down. Walked down the track to the dog. Now the first 25 feet the track is walked over four times and the last 25 feet it is walked twice. Get the dog, dog runs to the first place the ball was, doesn't find it and then tracks to where it is. Lots of praise and play, take the dog back. Walk down the same track past the second location another 25 paces or so, lay the ball down, walk back down the track. Get the dog, dog runs to first place, no ball, starts to track but faster than he did previously, gets to the second place where the ball was and then tracks to the third location. Yes, the dogs pull in the beginning of this training. No, it is not footstep tracking at this point but there are areas where the dog clearly uses his nose, follows the scent and finds his goal. I used this method to introduce corners as well by simply putting a turn in the track and laying it the same way. This way of training is about bringing up and reinforcing the dog's hunt drive. People in SchH now seemed to be frightened of drive in tracking. They think the dogs should walk really slow and look in every footstep whether they need to or not. I can hear the people reading this saying, " "oh that won't work for SchH". Well, that's what I was doing with the dogs and yes, they tracked slow and very accurately when I was done. I also attribute the determination they showed in tracking to the initial training but it was also the dogs themselves, they had hunt drive which I brought up with the training and then reinforced. 

I have trained other dogs using food and they track well also but I never use food in every footstep trying to get them to search each one. I move away from that very quickly and use food to simply tell the dog " yes, you are on the track", during periods of difficulty. I introduce an article on the very first track. Nowadays, I will put another article in the middle of the track much sooner than I used to when I train using food. I always make the article a very pleasant and enjoyable place for the dog to be. They look forward to finding them and no matter how you train them to indicate, that should be the constant and the reward should match the drive the dog is working in.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Uhhhhhhh.... I wasn't supposed to start off with and article/reward at the end of the track?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> This was why I asked Jane what motivates her dog. *Maybe, he simply likes to track but she keeps interrupting his desire to do so with food, too many articles etc.* Many times, the dogs who really enjoy tracking will have issues with articles. They are kind of carried away by the scent on the track and the articles have no significance. Like food, they can become an interruption


We tracked today...one straight track(150 paces) with some cat kibble piles(maybe 5 or 6) randomly placed, ball at the end. He ate most of the kibble, but sometimes went over it continuing on(as he does when he blows articles).
The 2nd one had a few less kibbble piles 2 articles and I whipped out the tug after he ended(no food jackpot).
Karlo tracked well today, slow methodical is his normal style. He didn't have any interest in the ball when track one ended w/ it, just wanted to keep searching, he was in the mode. 
So we did the 2nd track(300paces/2 turns) and he indicated the article fine, wanted to keep tracking after the 2nd article...wasn't interested in the tug either, maybe because there was no food jackpot. 


> I think in SchH tracking many make the mistake of making it about just tracking and following a scent to a pile of food. In SAR, in detection work, in police tracking, there is always a goal introduced at the beginning of the training. The dog is searching for SOMETHING. I have said it before but I'll say it again, I have never understood not having an article there from the get go in SchH tracking. It makes no sense and it reinforces the behavior of just following the scent without a goal. Used to be, we started SchH tracking the same way many of the police trainers do, or maybe now it is did.....since some of those people have lots their minds as well.


 I agree with this as far as my dog is concerned, he would rather track a real life situation and use his air scenting skills when doing so.
He never lifted his head today, though he did cast some after a turn even though there was no wind.... the pines that ran along his track were the culprit. It was a drizzly foggy morning.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

very informative thread. I am just starting real tracking with Benny who will be 3 next month, but think we have laid a good foundation. As a pup I used to play hide and seek with him in the house and then at the park where I would hide behind trees and bushes ( I would throw his ball first and when he was looking the other way go and hide. We then progressed to finding toys I would hide in the house and at the park, I then got him to find my keys ( which I often misplace) by dabbing a bit of peanut butter on them. First I hid them in plain sight and then under couch cushions and then finally dropped them in the grass outside. We would just play this game a maybe 5 or 10 minutes but he loves it. I always stayed quiet and did not give any clues. It was just a game so I didn't feel any pressure like I do when training. He always found the object and was rewarded with a toy or food and lots of enthusiastic praise. He seems to be motivated equally by all three depending on the day.

I have never yet done it with a line or scent articles


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Vandal said:


> *I think in SchH tracking many make the mistake of making it about just tracking and following a scent to a pile of food. In SAR, in detection work, in police tracking, there is always a goal introduced at the beginning of the training. The dog is searching for SOMETHING.* I have said it before but I'll say it again, I have never understood not having an article there from the get go in SchH tracking. It makes no sense and it reinforces the behavior of just following the scent without a goal. Used to be, we started SchH tracking the same way many of the police trainers do, or maybe now it is did.....since some of those people have lots their minds as well.


Ok, I come from a SAR background first, then into SchH. I *really* struggled with the idea of sullying a perfectly good track with food. But, I was told, that is the way things are done. I have done it that way but I am really, really interested in seeing someone doing it this way - from start to finish in training. 

My pup (10 months) has already been started with the food track, as per my only knowledge LOL. What would be the best way to segue into doing the more purposeful track? I have an article at the end now, I help him into the down there. I taught articles separate with food/marker. Should I add another, more than that, to the rest of the track? Because I am from a SAR background (wilderness air scent, aka the dog was out of sight, working on its own), I offer very little verbal encouragement/line handling and prefer to let him work his problems out himself. I do line correct if I feel he's getting a little hectic.

How do you slow the dog down so you get the more methodical picture with the ball technique? Kastle is naturally very, very methodical so speed, right now anyway, is not an issue. I would like to give him a drive to find the articles rather than the flat drive to track - which he enjoys because he likes the work - more than he likes food and he likes food a lot. Do I pick up the food and work with less? Do I put food where it is more difficult and let him work on the easier stuff without food? I am dying to hear more!!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I also would like to hear more! 

With the understanding that dogs can tell direction on tracks, I never did scent circles, or double/triple laid tracks. Many people have great success I know, but I started with tracks of about 30 feet. Reward at end.

I also started with an article at the end, paired with a reward. 
At first a toy, then quickly over to open container of food, then closed container and I asked for a "down" while I opened it. Then just the article, and the food reward on me. 
Ari just started offering the down when he saw the article.

Right now, I am going back to his KONG ball at the end of the track as I have caused issues handling, and that is his most favorite reward

I have never tracked with someone else, so doing everything by reading and figuring.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

FG167 said:


> Ok, I come from a SAR background first, then into SchH. I *really* struggled with the idea of sullying a perfectly good track with food. But, I was told, that is the way things are done. I have done it that way but I am really, really interested in seeing someone doing it this way - from start to finish in training.
> 
> My pup (10 months) has already been started with the food track, as per my only knowledge LOL. What would be the best way to segue into doing the more purposeful track? I have an article at the end now, I help him into the down there. I taught articles separate with food/marker. Should I add another, more than that, to the rest of the track? Because I am from a SAR background (wilderness air scent, aka the dog was out of sight, working on its own), I offer very little verbal encouragement/line handling and prefer to let him work his problems out himself. I do line correct if I feel he's getting a little hectic.
> 
> How do you slow the dog down so you get the more methodical picture with the ball technique? Kastle is naturally very, very methodical so speed, right now anyway, is not an issue. I would like to give him a drive to find the articles rather than the flat drive to track - which he enjoys because he likes the work - more than he likes food and he likes food a lot. Do I pick up the food and work with less? Do I put food where it is more difficult and let him work on the easier stuff without food? I am dying to hear more!!


My dog is pretty much weaned off food drops now, thankfully. I still do an occasional one, like 5 metres past the turn, but very small (I use single piece of cat kibble). I do always reward the article with food from my hand.
My problem was that the birds (crows/seagulls) were trolling and picking up my food drops. My "solution" was to bury them slightly but that wasn't such a good idea as the dog was getting distracted from the track by having to dig up the treats. In the end I use the cat kibble very sparingly so I don't care if the birds pick it up but the article reward is super yummy. She loves the raw sirloin burgers from costco. One burger will cover rewarding the 5 articles I lay each tracking session, with the biggest portion on the last article. 

I taught with an article from the start, I started with a big article (leather glove) and now use competition sized articles. I'm no expert by any means as I'm self taught but I did learn that the biggest asset is patience.
I track on sandy ground and my double laid tracks (at start) were very easy to see. I unwittingly taught my dog to track by sight and it took me several weeks of going back to basics (including me learning how to lay and following a non obvious track) before I got her to rely on her nose.

BTW: this may be an option for you. The way our club teaches tracking (which is not the way I use because I started tracking before the club were really teaching it) is to dump a can of cat food in a stocking, tie the stocking to the end of a leash and draw the stocking behind you between your legs. They combine this with food drops, but it may be worth trying without the food drops. I never really liked the idea much for a variety of reasons but the club guys swear by it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

FG167 said:


> How do you slow the dog down so you get the more methodical picture with the ball technique? Kastle is naturally very, very methodical so speed, right now anyway, is not an issue.


I took the advice from this forum of... let the dog to mature and stop obsessing with speed.

So far it has worked better than anything else


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Super good topic and lots of very good observations and opinions. 

In the vein of this thread, I like the idea of "not getting stuck in a particular step on your way to the final product." And food on the track would be a step. My trainer likes to use food in each step but has said that eventually food can become a detriment and that when they start passing it up, then start using less. 

I like using food in the foot steps in heavy cross wind or in deep grass to help the dog stay in the footsteps (Schutzhund tracking). So far we are doing well and I only bait when I think it's appropriate based on previous tracking behavior combined with track conditions. 

As far as talking to my dog  - I do praise when my dog has worked thru a particularly hard part of the track, after pegging a corner perfectly and at the articles. But I keep my mouth shut when she is working something out. 

We are gradually working longer tracks, using 8 articles of various size and material. Only after she was indicating the articles very well have I said "phooey" when she tried to blow over two articles in a single session. Since then she is not blowing by the articles and continues to work happily. BUT I AM GLAD TO READ THE INPUT FROM THIS THREAD SO I DON'T RUIN A GOOD THING.

I am NOT very experienced in tracking so we are working thru tracking with my trainers help, talking to knowledgable people, reading tracking books and then trying to apply common sense based on basic dog training theory. 

My agility class has taught me to be patient and let the dog learn. There is even the term of "running silently" when in a particularly complicated part of the course and just use body language to direct, allowing the dog to think. Seems applicable to tracking where the suggestion was to "be small at the end of the leash."  love it!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

I'm driving right now so can't write much, but I just wanted to add that this thread has been incredibly educational and informative! Thank you Anne, Lisa, etc. for sharing your knowledge!


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