# Need Advice on Contract



## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Technically I do not have a written contract on Kimber. I got her from the breeder that I have been discussing in my other thread (would you use this breeder). We have batted emails back and forth about the details. I really don't want to put price in this thread, but I really feel like I can't accurately discuss it if I don't and I really do need advice. 
Kimber's price is set at $1500 which payment in full means my name is first on registration and breeder's name is second + two pups are required to go back to the breeder from her first litter. If I want to fully own Kimber with the breeder not the on the papers, her price is $2000 + 2 pups back from her first litter. If the price per pup is $1500, that means I am looking at $4500-$5000 for the cost of Kimber. Holy crap, I don't like seeing that written down.
But again, besides some emails back and forth over these possible details, there is nothing signed in writing.
I have her health certificate and purchase slip, but the breeder still has her papers.
So far, I have paid $550 towards her price. The remaining comes from a combination of training, working her off at the breeders, money, etc... Or I can just pay it all and then owe the 2 pups, which the breeder is wanting to stud from her kennel.

Here's the problem. I am wanting to move on from my relationship with this breeder. Again, see other thread. 
What would you consider my options and/or what would your advice be? 
Thanks!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Um wow..... that's a tricky one. Honestly I'm curious why you would have entered into such a contract to begin with. This sounds like a co-ownership agreement (unless the breeder requires ALL of their puppy buyers to breed their dogs and give her pups back, something I'd have major issues with). 

Did you enter into this because you want to become a breeder, and now you've changed your mind about that?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I could very well be wrong, but just from what is written above, your only option might be to give her back and loose the $550.

Also from what is written above, IMO, you are WAY better off being done with this person.

What happesn if she proves to NOT be breeding quality? Would the "breeder" breed her anyway?


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I entered into this because 
A) I had not found this board at the time. I've been with this person since last year, working dogs, etc... Breeder was the only contact I had met around her, listened and sounded good, did some training, etc..
B) I do want to become a breeder. I have not changed my mind about that. Just about mentoring under this person. 
If she proves not to be breeding quality, I think it would be the $2000 and then being spayed. But it would be surprising if she turned out to not be.
Yes you could look at it as sort of a co-ownership basically.
I just hate to have to give her back as I love love love my girl.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

sounds like a win win for the breeder but def not for you. co-ownerships only work if the terms are those BOTH parties can agree to. 

I would've put it down on paper to see what the numbers were before doing this. If you don't have a contract and you pay her the 2k for the dog, i assume you get the papers then?

Again, seems like she's the only one winning here. Even with the 2k, how would she guarantee you would give her the 2 pups if her names not on the dog? 

I would prob. cut my losses. I agree, how would you know she would be breeding quality? Thats a pretty expensive arrangement for a whatif with strings attached.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I think I would only get the papers after the $2000 and the 2 pups.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

wow.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Young pups are a crap shoot in SO many ways. There is no way to know for 100% certainty until a dog is a fully MATURE adult if they are breed-worthy. Yes, you can tell some potential as a pup but until the dog is mature (which is not always at 2 years of age) you will not know if they are really should be reproducing. There is the extensive training that would be needed to prove soundness of temperament and nerve that are not always shown until the dog is put through the stress of training. Not just the puppy classes and one or two classes at Petsmart. Then there are the health clearances and of course the structure aspect.

I would probably cut my losses and run. Is this the pup out of untitled parents and you will essentially be paying $5K to purchase????


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: CustomKimberI think I would only get the papers after the $2000 and the 2 pups.


So in other words the only difference between the $1500 + 2 pups and the $2000 + 2 pups is the extra $500! You have no more control or "rights" one way than the other.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

No this is not out of the scenario that I posted. The one posted is for an upcoming litter. This is a pup from another set of untitled parents. The stud is from a different kennel, working on his AKC CH. 

And I wouldn't even think about breeding her until she was of course over 2, passed med tests, and had titles on her.

The +$500 means that only my name would be on the papers and after the first breeding I would be free to do what I wanted.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Right, but if I was paying $2000 I would be free to "do as I wanted" WITHOUT being REQUIRED to breed my dog. What would happen if you paid either price and Kimber ended up HAVING to be spayed before there were any litters? (By "having to be spayed" I am talking about a medical emergency.) Would you then be responsible for paying an additional $3000? (The price of 2 pups that will never be born due to NO FAULT of your own.)


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

I know, bad situation. I guess I don't really have an option if I want to get out of the relationship.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly I can't even figure out what is what! I would do like you said, sever ties and move on.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

Wow, I've never seen anything like that before-I guess you will have to cut your losses.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

For that amount of money, I personally would not like the idea that I would have to breed the dog and puppies would have to go back to the previous owner.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes I agree. I'm going to discuss it with the breeder and will probably be left with no option but to give her Kimber back :-(


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Well, if you want to keep Kimber the best option is to see if you can work out an agreement with the breeder that allows you to keep her without having to breed her. Doesn't hurt to try.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Well we will see. That would be my best option. But I'm preparing for the worse :-( Because I know that the breeder really wants to breed her.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The AKC show people really do things differently from what I have heard....sorry you are in this situation...

Lee


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thank you all again for your helpful advice. I really wanted to keep Kimber as I love her to death but breeder said she is going back. But at least she is refunding what I've paid.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

But, definitely done with that relationship.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

IF this were my dog and I "loved her to death",,I'd pay her off /spay her and keep her.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

She wants the dog back. It's not an option. And I no doubt absolutely love the girl to death. She doesn't want her spayed.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Going to play devil's advocate here and take the other side.....

If you and the breeder are on good terms I'd sit down with them and write up a contract that spells out all the bells and whistles involved so that there's no misunderstanding from here out. It goes without saying to NEVER purchase a dog, especially with any guarantees or strings involved without a VERY specific contract spelling out who does what in each situation. 

The breeder IS taking a risk in this agreement as described in selling what apparently she considers a breeding/show prospect for $550 in cash and having you work off the remainder of the purchase price at the Kennel and with pups back. If she's providing and paying for the stud, that equals the value of one pup in her mind. So the female you have costs you the $550 plus a puppy back, which of course she would loose if the bitch is not breeding quality. You do need to clarify what "breeding quality" means, at what age she is to be bred and if both she and the male are to be OFA'ed prior to the breeding. You don't want to get stuck with 6 puppies to sell without both parents certified at the very least. 

Lastly the AKC papers... it sounds like you are currently listed as a co-owner on the papers?? If so she could make a copy of them for you to have in your records for when the dog is OFA cert. or if you enter her in an AKC show/match in obedience or breed. If you are supposed to be listed, and she balks at providing a copy you can contact the AKC and ask for a duplicate to be sent to you.

Any agreement can be questioned and look odd if held to a strong light... but may be well intentioned to start with. Get it in writing if possible with all the "what if's" spelled out. Hopefully everyone's intentions are good and it will work out okay. Oh, when/if the time comes to breed her, take her to the stud and bring her home, if there's any tension between you and her breeder DON'T leave her there... remember possession is 9/10's of the law!!


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Technically the working it off was only occasional like $10 here or there. The rest would have been paid in cash and already given in the form of post-dated checks.
Anyway, I have already spoken with the breeder and the situation has been resolved the way it will be.
Thanks.


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## Sue F (Oct 3, 2007)

OK, I think I get this for what it is...

You couldn't handle the black GSD foster, you are sure that Kimber is now messed up by the fact that you couldn't handle the foster, and now you are being sure to get rid of her, since you have also gotten feedback she might not be the best for your potential backyard breeding program.....

So best to get rid of the dog your kids now see as their puppy, since she won't meet your needs, and start over with the other dogs you have been posting to get info/opinions on.

You are a piece of work.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

Oh yeah, you're right on








And that's about all the dignification you are going to get for an answer.


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## Sue F (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh really? 

Because I am right.

Let's be honest here...you have been on here only for a few weeks, and all your posts have been looking for fosters, breeding potentials, and show potentials.

You had a vet check done on you by a rescue, who found you have barely taken Kimber to the vet, and you are a DNA at a local humane society near you, because you are known to dump dogs.

You have already dumped the black GSD you were supposed to foster, and now you are dumping Kimber.

I think I have called it exactly like it is. I certainly hope no one else adopts to you.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Custom,

Do not beat yourself up. There are contracts like this in the schutzhund world and German showing as well! Not just regulated to the AKC world.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Last I knew the dog was still being fostered waiting for rescue to come thru like they said they would and rescue has seemingly bailed. 

Personal attacks aren't allowed.


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## vcroft0313 (Feb 3, 2009)

This will be my last post on the thread since it has gotten drastically off topic. 
1) I still have the black foster that I pulled who was due to be euthanized because rescue bailed. He will be kept until a suitable home can be found.
2) The DNA is the result of a vindictive rescue in Tallahassee who got upset when I didn't agree with their for profit actions from a "non-profit".
3) Not that it is any of your business but Kimber is 13 weeks. How many times should she have been to the vet by now? Got shots and de wormed at the breeder, took to vet immediately upon getting her. 
4) I am not dumping Kimber. I am doing what I was told by the breeder who OWNS her. 
5) Not that it is any of your business.. but thanks for your concern on my future non backyard breeding program.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Since this thread has degenerated into personal attacks on the OP and the OP's decision has already been made, thread closed.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Custom Kimber I am glad that you posted to clear things up.

Topics can and do go off track fairly often, it isn't against the rules.

You might want to do some Reading on what a Non-Profit is and what is allowed by law. Non-Profits can actually make a profit. They can't pay a person for being an officier of the Corporation like regular corporations can. I for Profit business has to show a profit or attempts to make a profit or they are usually audited by the IRS after years 3 - 5 with NO profit.

Val


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