# rory let himself down today



## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

I am heartbroke, we have always had a problem with Rory running at other dogs,not to hurt them, but only we know that, if the dog just stands there Rory will veer off. if not he will mouth it or chase it. because of this if we see another dog we put him on a lead till we get past. if we are out walking with a person with a dog or two he is usually fine and is also happy to let people into the house. he has been socialised from an early age and always had regular contact with people and dogs.
rory can also run at people and frighten them so we always put him on the lead. Today we walking in the woods with all 4 dogs and as we came to the edge,Rory ran off at speed, we shouted to him but it was as if he didn't hear us, neither of us saw the incident as it was over before we emerged from the trees, Rory had jumped up at a young lady, who had consequently nearly strangled her boyfriend holding on to him. she was very shaken up and told us he didn;t bite, but mouthed her.... they were very nice about it and we couldn't apologise enough, we brought Rory straight home in disgrace, Stephen and I fell out, both blaming each other and we are both gutted. Rory behaved like a dangerous dog and i don't know what to do. i have had him to training classes were he was perfect, but i feel we just can't trust him, i want to walk him without a lead but what if something happens, today we were caught out, what if he had bitten, what if he had pushed an elderly person or a child to the ground! i am frightened i may lose him, i am also very dissapointed in him and myself because i must have gone wrong somewhere, i am finding it difficult to type because i am crying. i don't know how to stop this behaviour


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

Thread title in incorrect. A dog cannot let himself down. He only does what he's been trained to do.


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## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

i get your point, your your post is neither helpful or welcoming!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How old is Rory? It sounds like he's young yet and he behaved like a puppy rather than a dangerous dog.

I would have him on leash at all times until he can be trusted. My Jax will be perfect in classes, in the house and in our yard. It's when she's out and can be easily distracted that she's not always with it. It takes time and consistency to train your dog.

The first thing I would do i put a correction collar on him and 'set him up' to jump on people (with a person that knows how to block a jumping dog) so I could control the correction. If he's still in a class you should talk to your trainer.


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

Have you tried doing some obedience classes? That may help some. And read on the behavior of dogs and try more to get into a dogs head so you can understand what needs to be done. Best of luck.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rory's mum i get your point, your your post is neither helpful or welcoming!


You made a post blaming your dog for something that is not his fault. I responded with a simple statement that corrected a fairly large error on your part. I didn't bash or say anything rude...it was simply matter-of-fact.

From your other thread, it appears this GSD is 3 years old. Have you had him since he was a puppy? If so, what your dog did wasn't something that is innate in his genetics or personality (or it shouldn't be anymore) like a dominant ScH dog wanting to bite. It's purely due to a lack of training the dog off-leash. If you don't have total control of him off-leash, you should not be walking him so. As you stated, someone could get hurt and it would not be Rory's fault.

Also, you put this thread in the "Aggression" forum. That, in itself, says a lot.


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## crazyboutdogs (Aug 26, 2007)

well, here's my deal. whether you will like it or not it is the truth. i have a gsd who is an absolute lover. BUT, and here is the big BUT. i cannot trust him with strangers. he is very wary of them. overprotective on the lead. when a stranger approaches me, he goes into protective mode. now, i can let whoever i want in the house. he can be a bit wary of men, but with the kids and my 15 year old girlfriend's friends, he's a sweetheart. even joins in with the sleepovers and ends up in the middle of a pile of heap of teenagers soundly sleeping!!! first of all, i have leash laws in my town. god forbid if storm jumped up and so much as scratched someone, it is my fault. not his, not anyone elses, MINE!! the laws are strict down here. most people do abide by them and i'm glad. i have had certain incidences where strange dogs have lunged at me off lead and it scared me to death. once i had my baby out in his stroller and a loose pitbull was roaming the streets. thank god he was nice!! (oh and folks i'm not prejudiced against pitbulls but they do have a rep for being nasty, who would let one roam free?). back to the point. sometimes we have to put ourselves in the other person's shoes and imagine how they would feel. now my storm used to get out of the yard. i didn't realize he was using our trampoline to hoist himself over the fence. he did approach a few neighbors, but never acted aggressive. he also went up to one neighbor's dobie. he started to try and nip his feet. she was scared to death. i couldn't have him terrorizing the neighborhood, so being a responsible dog owner i immediately went out and charged a bigger fence on my credit card. i've since moved the trampoline and storm is now confined safely to his yard. would i luv to let him off lead??? oh of course, but to protect my baby from any potential lawsuits or having to be taken away from me it's just now worth it. maybe you can find someone with a big enough yard that you can let him run in. people just don't understand that he is just "mouthing". and after all, they are dogs, i'm the first to admit, as much as storm has my heart, i just can't trust him with strangers, especially on lead.


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## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

Rory has been socialised from a puppy, been to training classes from an early age and i work regularly with him on a one to one basis. I am not a proffessional trainer and do my best,This was a horrendus thing to happen and in my post i do blame myself, maybe i could have worded the title better. I came to the forum for advice, frienship and help, i feel , that although what you are saying is correct it could have been put in a friendlier and more helpful manner, there are ways of addressing people without upsetting them further. i wouldn't be here if i didn't want help, i am more than aware of my part in this incident


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hmmmm...I would talk to a professional trainer for ideas. It doesn't sound like he was trying to terrorize the neighborhood. More like he just hasn't figured out jumping on ppl and mouthing them is not ok.

Jax is 16 mths old and still mouths me. It's just something she needs to be corrected on constantly. She will jump when excited but I normally have her on a leash unless I'm playing with her.


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## Helly (Mar 31, 2008)

I won't let Jackson, 13 months, out of the yard off-leash...and yes I have been disappointed by his behavior, especially when he is around small dogs...and its my fault, but I have no clue how to correct him, so I keep him on-leash outside of the back yard at all times.

rory's mum...I have had my butt handed to me several times on this forum for asking simple questions...don't let it get it to you...they are few and far between


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

First off, while you want to, you can not have Rory off lead at the moment. You might get a long line to give a little more room and maintain control while you work on this. That is a good way to work build on your recall. You want to work on controlling Rory by giving him commands and/or redirecting before he takes off and that means paying closer attention to him while out so you can better anticipate when he might take off like that. And that is difficult to do when you do not see the object of his interest like in the experience you just described.

Have you read Control Unleashed? There are some exercises that might help you gain more control. There's a thread in the Favorite Books, Links and Videos section here: Control Unleashed 
But getting an instructor to work directly with you and Rory is the best way to work on this.

You might want to put your general location in your profile. That way others in your area might be able to give you some references.

Good Luck. I understand the joys of allowing your dogs to be off leash but you need to step back a bit for the moment and focus on modifying his behavior.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: crazyboutgsd's
> Well, here's my deal. Whether you will like it or not it is the truth.
> 
> I have a gsd who is an absolute lover. BUT, and here is the big BUT, I cannot trust him with strangers. He is very wary of them. Overprotective on the lead.
> ...


Crazy, I edited your post as I could not read it the way you posted it but it has some valid points. If you add some paragraphs and other editing it would be much easier to read.


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

First of all...don't let yourself get "heartbroken!" This is simply a setback in training.

Not to be rude, but I do agree with Winkin in the fact that it's not Rory's fault...it's simply the fact that he wasn't ready to be placed in that kind of situation reliably. You already sound like you know that though. We've all had moments where we've "overdone" it and pushed our dogs too far too fast (whether it be your situation or allowing the dog to break a stay or whatever else)...don't let it get you down. Just push on!

Walk him on leash from now on. The long line idea is a great one. Practice your recalls! And although you've had him in class before it doesn't hurt to continue. More classes will help you with your handling skills and will help Rory through even more distractions.

Good luck!


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## Martie (Jun 3, 2008)

This time of the year can be tough as there are more people/dogs out and about in the nicer weather and our dogs are not used to seeing them. I hope you will keep Rory on a leash or long line. As upsetting as this is to the owner - it goes double for the poor person minding their own business and getting rushed at by a loose dog. I'm sure you thought he would be OK, but he has shown you he is not and needs your help. 

There is no quick solution to this and I think some dogs can never be trusted in public off-leash. However, the first step is training - lots of it.

Dogs seem to train in levels. As an example: While probably important for most people with big dogs, I have some pretty severe arthritis and cannot risk big dogs racing past me up or down stairs. My dogs first learned "sit" - then "stay" - then "sit-stay" at the top or bottom of stairs - wait to be released - come up/down quietly - sit quietly at the top/bottom until released. It takes a lot of time and "levels" to get them to the place where they are fool-proof and automatic as they can be. It starts with lots of individual commands and progresses on through false starts-returning to try again to just some individual commands to frequent reminders to occasional reminders until you finally get there (and continue to praise/reward). Consistency is key and any time it seems too much work and you just let the dog go, sets back training a lot.

If off-leash, dogs need to be under control, which means they look to you first for permission before chasing that squirrel or whatever seems exciting at the time. A good trainer would be a great help.

I know how upsetting this is, but this is time to mobilize and take control. You need to accommodate for Rory's reactivity now (by keeping him on-leash) and begin work in earnest to take him toward a time when he can walk with you off-leash once again. 

I'm sure others with more experience will offer some great ways to work with Rory on this particular issue. Please keep us posted with your progress!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Have you ever considered an e-collar? We're currently looking into this because, while Jerzey hasn't yet run off while on a hike, we want to prevent this from every happening. I know some people are very against them but it's the only way (from what I understand) that you can have some sort of control while your dog is off leash. Obviously it would require some research and training on your part before you actually use it on the dog, but it might be something worth considering.

Good luck. I hope you can find a solution soon.


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## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

I agree with Winkin, it was the way it was said that upset me. thank you for your help and be assured Rory will get there with my guidance and support. want does anyone think of a remote control collar???


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

At 3 Rory has probably hit social maturity and may be feeling he can offer a challenge. I would go back to obedience school with him. Work on your leadership and your relationship with him. He can't be blamed for your lack of control. 

Train a very reliable recall in a secure are and use a long line in an unsecure area. Keep him leashed.

I would not use an e collar (electronic collar). Not because they area good or bad tool but becasue I think the OP probably lacks the experience to use one correctly. She would need to work with a professional on this. 

From the OP's pattern of speech I suspect she may be british and I think they are illegal there.


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## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

i am English and they are not illegal, but a lot of people frown upon them., and the jury is out as far as i am concerned. the classes i used to take Rory have finished, i need to find another one. I have a check chain, a 30 foot lead and a 60 foot lead. as soon as Easter is over i will look in to new classes for him. my long term goal is to be able to walk him with the other 3 dogs and still have full verbal control. with hindsight Rory has become more protective since we got Cassie , the rough collie, she is now 10 months old!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

find someone to teach you how to use the e-collar. It's a good way to mess your dog up if you aren't using them correctly. Mine is on a shelf until my trainer comes back north for the summer.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:Rory ran off at speed, we shouted to him but it was as if he didn't hear us


This tells me that Rory is not ready to be allowed off leash.

I doubt our girl Sasha will EVER be trustworthy off leash - and I don't have a problem with that. She'll always be on a long line - it's just something we live with.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

When a dog fixates they don't hear you. At that point it is not even disobedience, they just do not hear. That is why it is important to learn those triggers, work on them and then realize when and when not to allow your freedom.

I have 3 GSD's. One of them is working on being 11. Max is never off a lesah as he has never had a good recall. He came to us as a rescue and I have never gotten that level of control. 22 month old Havoc has a better recall. I can blam him being a rescue or I can blame my trainging. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 

Best thing is understand your's and Rory's limits and don't put him in situations where he can make a mistake.

If you use a long line use it on a flat collar for safety. Put a short tab on the check chain as a handle to grab.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWWhen a dog fixates they don't hear you. At that point it is not even disobedience, they just do not hear.


How very interesting!! That would explain why Jax was a mile down the road after cousins dogs before she even crooked her ears back at me screaming to her last year!!

See Rory's Mom...it's NOT just Rory!


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## Prize (Feb 5, 2009)

I wouldn't use an e-collar. Just a long lead. And now that you know he has a problem, you can do as other posters suggested, and "Set him up" so that you can repeat that situation but with more control so it can be corrected. No one was hurt, just pride, and at least you are aware of that problem before a more troublesome situation (like you mentioned with children, etc) can occur. Working on mouthing with strangers might be helpful too. I can imagine it would be terrifying if the mouth-ee didn't understand what was going on. 
I understand long leads can be a pain when you are going through a woodsy area, I clip a flexi leash to me, you can still get stuck going around trees, but at least it is off the ground so it doesn't get stuck in brush. 
Good luck!


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

There are some dogs that can never be off-leash in a public, unfenced area. Nothing wrong with the owner or the dog, but even with a lot of training, there are some dog personality types that just doesn't fit with being off-leash in a public area. I'm sure w/enough effort you must be able to find an area that is either private or if it is public, it is fenced and you can control access for a period of time.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would LOVE to take all nine of my dogs for an off-lead hike with me. I expect Ceaser or Victoria Stillwater or Jan Fennel could pull it off, without a blood bath freeforall, a few less wild animals in the neighborhood, and a possible lawsuit. 

Seven of these dogs have titles and Canine Good Citizen Tests the others are puppies. So they ARE trained. 

I am not so sure why we think that having all of our dogs accompany us on a frolic in public is such a great thing. I can see the romance of it. But it is romance. It is not necessary at all. But if this is your ultimate goal, then you need to do a ton of work with your boy and your ten month old individually, first on lead working on jumping up, etc. Then off-lead but with you by yourself. Then once the dog is 100% at that, then start with another dog -- one of the older ones preferrably. Go back to putting a long lead on him and letting it drag. 

You are right to be mortified about this. You have had a very close call, a wake up call. You are very fortunate that your dog was not injured or did not injure anyone else. You cannot let the scene repeat. It hurts all dog owners. 

In order to accomplish your dream you are going to have to work very hard at your leadership, his obedience, obedience with distractions, etc. 

Good luck with your dogs.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWWhen a dog fixates they don't hear you. At that point it is not even disobedience, they just do not hear. That is why it is important to learn those triggers, work on them and then realize when and when not to allow your freedom.


I agree w/you, Kathy. I can have mine off leash in this big field we go to and they will come readily when called. On the other hand, in our own back yard if the dog across the way it outside, they get fixated and barking like crazy and immediately go Mom-Deaf.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Ack! System timed out before I was finished ...

*rory's mum:* If you are concerned he will really bite, you could also put a muzzle on him in situations like this. For safety's sake it's something to think about as a help tool.

Also, if you are noticing behavior changes in your dog, especially those that are scary - you might want to check into the symptoms of thyroid disease. I just recently learned that my dog has hypothyroidism (different from _hyper_thyroidism) which can cause aggression in some dogs. He's been on meds for one week now and will be restested after six weeks. 

See if your dog is displaying any of these symptoms. The behaviorial symptoms can mimic other things (like just plain being a dog or a GSD, LOL!) so you need to be real honest w/yourself and watch him close for signs. 

Knowing what I know about the illness right now _(I'm no expert!)_ I myself plan on having *any* GSD I have tested. They're on the list for being prone to thyroid dysfunction for one thing. If I'd had him tested sooner, I would probably not have all this behavior modification training to do and I feel I definitely would have saved myself a whole bunch of heartache and at least as much $$$ in trainers and a few other things - like a new fence!

It's a simple blood test and not expensive in my opinion. I had my vet draw the blood and they _on my request_ sent the blood to the Hemopet lab in CA for testing as these people are supposed to be *the* experts in the field. If it turns out your dog has thyroid dysfunction, the meds are very inexpensive (I got 6-8wks worth for $12) and supposed to be *very* effective in *most* dogs







which for me is a very encouraging thought









You also might want to consider working w/your trainer to teach Rory the proper way to approach another dog. He can get hurt if he doesn't follow the proper "Doggie Meet & Greet" protocol that is part of being a dog. Some dogs take improper approaches real seriously and/or as a confrontation which then becomes a dog fight waiting to happen or actually does become a dog fight. I have seen this happen w/my own dog - he's very reactive to improper approaches.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

rory'smom: Something similar happened to me with a totally obedient dog. We were walking in the forest with a couple of dogs and suddenly a couple were on the path in front of us, her reaction was so fast, she charged and hackles up was quite a scary sight. However I yelled and she turned off. my daughter who was with us commented on my tone of voice and I have been working on it ever since. First yell was high pitched and she ignored it, second was lower and more serious and she listened. My daughter said the first I sounded scared and the second mad.
Just a thought, the people startled her and my fear sounding yell assured her we were in danger, the second yell showed no fear and that I had taken over. She responded correctly. My suggestion is to practice your voice and your control at all times, go back on leash and go for longer walks and set up situations and see the reactions. You are in control and must be firm enough to prove it. Good luck.
By the way she has never done it since. I control my voice and reactions and that controls her.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

If you're interested in learning how to use the Ecollar take a look at the articles on my website. HERE.  

They're easy to learn to use and will give you the ability to call your dog back from any distraction.


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## Kelsey3283 (Feb 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Winkin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: rory's mum i get your point, your your post is neither helpful or welcoming!
> ...



[Removed by Admin. Wisc.Tiger - Board Rules, no personal attacks]. People simply don't understand these dogs sometimes and the breed's reputation suffers for it. If someone comes here for help its a GSD enthusiast's responsibility to help.

At any rate he's totally right. You need to know if your dog has the ability to be off-leash. My dog simply does not have that ability yet. Though we are working on it she may never be an off-leash dog, and it was due to my failure to realize how high strung her drive is and train her accordingly. It happens all too often, people need to understand that a large dog is a huge responsibility and can be dangerous if not done with complete awareness of the animal's behavior and your own surroundings.

You should continue to find out what the triggers are and work on them but keep in mind that you may have a leash-bound dog for life. You owe it to him and everyone else around to keep him contained. He can still be a very happy dog and give you great companionship from the end of a leash.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW....Best thing is understand your's and Rory's limits and don't put him in situations where he can make a mistake....


I think this is the key here. Know when and where you can do what with which dog. 

And would we collectively please work on being less sensitive? If you post to a BB you really cannot tell people how to respond or control how they do. Calling someone rude makes me laugh because I don't think that response would be considered polite!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Kelsey
> Removed by Admin. Wisc.Tiger on Previous Post


I didn't find Winkin's post to be rude. however there's no mistaking that your name calling was about as rude as one can be. 

Any failure here was not the dog's, as the subject line suggests, but that of the owner! Winkin was merely pointing that out. 



> Originally Posted By: Kelsey Removed by Admin. Wisc.Tiger on Previous Post


I agree. YOU could have been much kinder and a post like this one could have been, SHOULD HAVE BEEN sent privately. 



> Originally Posted By: Kelsey If someone comes here for help its a GSD enthusiast's responsibility to help.


NO ONE has such a _responsibility _ Participation here is strictly voluntary. 


Fascinating how you can call someone else "rude" yet post as you have.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that this post is getting way out of hand. Back on page one or two Rory's owner agreed that the subject line could have been better stated. 

I think that ensuring that Rory does not continue to run freely at other people is important. I think that can be accomplished without sniping at one another.


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## blord (Feb 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI think that this post is getting way out of hand. Back on page one or two Rory's owner agreed that the subject line could have been better stated.
> 
> I think that ensuring that Rory does not continue to run freely at other people is important. I think that can be accomplished without sniping at one another.


Perfectly stated.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

So how is Rory doing this week?


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## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

I took Rory to the park today, just me and him. i had a 30 foot lead and a muzzle. I started by making him sit and walking away with him on the long lead, then i walked round him in a full circle and then crossed over him, i told him to wait, stand , sit and down, perfect. i have done this before with him. i then muzzled him and took him off the lead and repeated everything but I was able to move further away, again perfect, i was rewarding him with treats, he was fully focused on me. the park was reasonably busy but he was not distracted by dogs or people. I walked away from him and called him too me, halfway there i commanded him ''DOWN'' it was not immediate and he stole a few yards but it was good, i repeated this many times. Next i did some heelwork with him, he was still muzzled and he was brilliant. There were people and dogs about but he was totally focused on me. there is a kiddies swing area in the park which is fenced in, everbody was watching him, and they all stood up and applauded him. the kids were going whooooo! i was embaressed and proud both at the same time. i took his muzzle off and did heelwork with him, again he was very focused on me, a young boy and his mum asked could they stroke him, i told Rory to sit and the boy gave Rory one of my treats after asking for a paw.
we walked the length of the park with Rory off lead but close to heel and focused, we passed dogs and people with Rory behaving immaculately. i kept telling him ''leave it'' every time we came near a dog and a person. Today Rory was a star and i am proud of him. we are going to repeat this every day. i know things are going to be different when all 4 dogs are back together and i am going to ask advice on how to approach this when the time is right. what are your opinions on remote control collars??? if you think this might help i will buy one even though they are very expensive. i know things will be a lot harder when Rory has not got my undiveded attention and the other dogs are there but my goal is to walk him off lead with the others without worry and knowing i have full verbal control.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

congrats to you and Rory,,my suggestion,,,keep doing what your doing with Rory alone daily for a good amount of time,,when your ready to introduce the other dogs into it,,I would start with ONE at a time,,work that until you get the desired results you seek, and then PROOF it,,,then go on and add another dog,,and so on...

continued success to you both


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## hilary bradshaw (Apr 12, 2009)

thank you, i was going to do that, just one at a time, but not for a while!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yay for Rory and you!!


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Great job!!!







That a boy Rory! SOunds like you are on the right track. Look forward to hearing about your progress.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for updating us on your progress with Rory! Sounds like he's coming along wonderfully!


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