# Suspicion in Czech Shepherds, what exactly does that mean?



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

When describing Czech bloodlines, I keep hearing that they have more "suspicion" than the other lines? What exactly does that mean?

Webster's Definition:
1
_a_ *:* the act or an instance of suspecting something wrong without proof or on slight evidence *:* mistrust 
_b_ *:* a state of mental uneasiness and uncertainty *:* doubt 

2
*:* a barely detectable amount *:* trace <just a _suspicion_ of 

Most dogs of any breed bark at someone at the door. Max, who is Czech/WG, has what I think is suspicion. He has "discernment". For instance, at the playground, kids , and adults milling about. He will notice the one guy standing still, and emit a low growl. I tell him quiet he is fine.

Is that the suspicion everyone mentions? I don't view it as a bad thing, although I feel some folks do?

So, what exactly is "suspicion"?
Thanks for the insight!


----------



## Wustenbergerland (Nov 29, 2012)

Its bit different from the normal breeds and bloodlines. Sometimes more suspicious than normal breeds.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

ponyfarm said:


> When describing Czech bloodlines, I keep hearing that they have more "suspicion" than the other lines? What exactly does that mean?
> 
> Webster's Definition:
> 1
> ...


 
I think that example is a pretty good one to describe it. They're not going to be everyone's friend until they've watched them. Clearly the one person standing still instead of moving around like everyone else in that area is going to be suspicious to anyone, especially a dog who is keeping an eye on everything. 

I'll be following this thread to see what people say. I'm curious to gain some more insight.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would call it sharpness and distrust of strangers, which can be a good thing. Sometimes it is also coupled with thin nerves. A lot of the early czech lines were military lines and they didn't want a social, happy prey dog. Those old lines and type of dog are all but gone.


----------



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I would call it sharpness and distrust of strangers, which can be a good thing. Sometimes it is also coupled with thin nerves. A lot of the early czech lines were military lines and they didn't want a social, happy prey dog. Those old lines and type of dog are all but gone.


Chip, so this trait is not as commonly seen in the other lines? And sounds like rarely seen now in the Czech?


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> I think that example is a pretty good one to describe it. They're not going to be everyone's friend until they've watched them. Clearly the one person standing still instead of moving around like everyone else in that area is going to be suspicious to anyone, especially a dog who is keeping an eye on everything.
> 
> I'll be following this thread to see what people say. I'm curious to gain some more insight.


Me too, while Delgado is only part Czech I find he is very alert to everything especially while outside of the house. You can almost see him cataloguing everything with his senses and his intense but quiet alert stare can really unnerve people. While I didn't buy him with a PPD in mind his presence and alertness is enough deterrent for almost everyone  He’s one serious pup when on leash outside, he has no time to be lovey dovey with strangers 

Whether that comes from the Czech lineage or not, I don't know. 

It does make sense when you look at the purpose of the breeding


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I would call it sharpness and distrust of strangers, which can be a good thing. Sometimes it is also coupled with thin nerves.


 
I agree Chip. If I'm being honest, I like seeing a little bit if the thin nerve(in context to this discussion) in my protection dogs.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I'd say the trait is less commonly seen in other lines but not absent. Depends on the individual dog and sometime who they were linebred on. A lot of the current Czech lines are being crossed with West German working lines and IMO, the dogs are becoming more sporty, because that is where the market is. I don't Jinopi breeds the same dogs they were used to breeding. They too are more sporty and breed for bone and pigment, again, where the market is. Too much liability for socially aggressive and sharp dogs.


----------



## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

The Czech dogs Ive personally seen mostly meet that description. I think that the DDR can also be very suspicious as well. My pups suspicion has gone up 10x in the last month. He is very aloof, he does not want to be friends and could careless for a stranger.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I'd say the trait is less commonly seen in other lines but not absent. Depends on the individual dog and sometime who they were linebred on. *A lot of the current Czech lines are being crossed with West German working lines and IMO, the dogs are becoming more sporty, because that is where the market is.* I don't Jinopi breeds the same dogs they were used to breeding. They too are more sporty and breed for bone and pigment, again, where the market is. Too much liability for socially aggressive and sharp dogs.


Interesting, so would part of the benefit of adding in the WG be a more biddable dog that would better bond with the handler and therefore be more appropriate for sport? Just curious why WG would be specifically mentioned


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

A GSD can be more aloof and suspicious without "thin nerve". Really, that's the last thing you want. This is not the first time I have heard this theory that the suspicion comes from a weakness in nerve. It may appear to be the case with some dogs, as Chip seems to be saying, but it is not correct and not something to "like".


----------



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Vandal said:


> A GSD can be more aloof and suspicious without "thin nerve". Really, that's the last thing you want. This is not the first time I have heard this theory that the suspicion comes from a weakness in nerve. It may appear to be the case with some dogs, as Chip seems to be saying, but it is not correct and not something to "like".


 Oh no! I wasn't saying suspicion comes from weak nerve! I just was looking for an accurate description of "suspicion". I know there are plenty of fearful GSD, that was not the description I was putting "suspicion" under. 
My dog is not weak -nerved, at least doing what I do with him..he is an active companion/ob/rally and hopefully BH dog!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> A GSD can be more aloof and suspicious without "thin nerve". Really, that's the last thing you want. This is not the first time I have heard this theory that the suspicion comes from a weakness in nerve. It may appear to be the case with some dogs, as Chip seems to be saying, but it is not correct and not something to "like".


Thank you, Anne.

I trained with and handled a few of the early Czech dogs that were imported into the USA. While most had very good social aggression, for the most part they were not untrusting of strangers or antisocial. Some actually had good pack drive and wanted to work with their handlers. Some also had good drive for toys. Only one of the many that were brought in lacked pack drive. He also had thin nerves, was rather rank, high social aggression and tried to eat his handler a few times. 

Many of the Czech and DDR dogs I see now, even those that have not been crossed with Belgian or WGWL, are not the same types of dogs. Some of the crosses are nice dogs, but often it seems like they have inherited the worst of both worlds.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Anne,
Just to clarify, I am not saying thin nerve is desireable, but is often part of the catalyst of probably the majority of sharp GSDs, regardless of bloodlines. That is why I like some of the Malinois/DS lines so much. It is very hard to find a healthy GSD, with extreme drives and social aggression that has rock solid nerves. With some of the Malinois/DS, they are often so driven to bite, it's okay if they are happy prey dogs. Or, if you get one that is socially aggressive, your odds are better at finding one with solid nerves if you know where to look. I am aware there are a lot of Malinois in general with nerve issues.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very interesting!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thin nerve is the last thing you want in a protection dog . that'll be the dog that hangs around just enough to rile the bad guy , then vamoose , leaving you there by yourself .

suspicion is being sceptical , an interested watchfulness , neither hostile nor friendly .

Zorro Lagerwall DDR dog was a good source of natural suspicion.
Prey dogs don't think so much of the overall dynamics and complex subtleties . 
Suspicion should never cross into untrust , fearfulness.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I wonder if sometimes people talk about "thin nerve" and they really mean something more along the lines of the difference between a hot quick to react Thoroughbred and an old dead sided school horse??
The Tb can be more fun to ride for sure You will never get flash from the old schooler.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

With thin nerve, there are always matters of degree and not all thin nerved dogs will be run off. Sometimes they will bite confidently but for no apparently good reason. So some would call them overly aggressive. They have a hole in their temperament, but sometimes it is only small and training can often patch the hole fairly well. Breeding thin nerved dogs is a separate issue.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Shade said:


> Interesting, so would part of the benefit of adding in the WG be a more biddable dog that would better bond with the handler and therefore be more appropriate for sport? Just curious why WG would be specifically mentioned


I'd think that that the main reason WG has been added is to increase prey drive. You can have a super biddable dog to his handler without the need of the happy, social part. Falling into stereotypes... GSDs don't need to act like Golden Retrievers to have a super bond with their handlers.

So far the best example to me of the dog with suspicion is the one of the dog in the park. Watchful, attentive, nailing what is different without barking nor hackling up.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Catu said:


> I'd think that that the main reason WG has been added is to increase prey drive.


Ah, I'm always learning  Thanks!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The hotter, more reactive horse could be more like a thin nerved dog...but usually thin nerves are a negative - insecurity issue - when coupled with suspicion, a real liability of a dog...but suspicion does not go hand in hand with thin nerves...and is a good thing when the dog is a solid nerved dog.

My K litter was from a Galan Naleg male...both his parents half Czech, half Belgian, dam WGR and DDR - pups not as social/open/happy as my Belgian WGR lined pups...would notice and watch things/people more closely and not make up as quickly....but nerves very solid....

Lee


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

carmspack said:


> suspicion is being sceptical , an interested watchfulness , neither hostile nor friendly .


^^ That's my definition of suspicion as well, i.e. neither hostile nor friendly towards neutral strangers, just observant. I think, a dog can be very suspicious and at the same time very approachable.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My male Dodge was a zorro grandson, if you looked up 'aloof' in the dictionary hisname would be next to it..He was a 'watcher', and could honestly have given two figs about anyone but me. He was very approachable, and you (general you) could really do anything to him, but he was just uninterested (aloof , Suspicious? maybe because he was a "watcher", a nosey dog I had to explain to people to not take it personally, "(why is he so unfriendly?), he was not unfriendly, just didn't care about you (general you).

Masi is 3/4 czech/1/4 ddr, the most czech i've had in a dog, while also being 'aloof' out in public, I see much more 'suspicion' in her. She will stare you down, but as carmen says, neither hositle nor friendly..I think I've heard Cliff mention Rieko, had alot of suspicion? Masi is a reiko granddaughter.. 

Strange but people seem to avoid Masi much more than Dodge, maybe a color thing? Both were/are approachable, Dodge being abicolor, at the time most people thought he was a lab mix so that may be the reasoning, while Masi is a dark sable, and you immediately hear wolf or something ridiculous..


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The type of "thin nerve" I was referring to isn't the type of nerve we see in a dog that's in the corner peeing itself. I will try and describe it like this. 

Take a military troop in a combat zone conducting a patrol. He is observant to everything, possessing everything. He is in a high state of alertness. Maybe a little on edge? It's not that he isn't confident in his team or in his own abilities. Or that he will "snap" at any moment. Just that he's expecting and ready for the worst. After all complacency kills. I'm sure many of you wont understand this analogy but this was the only way I could describe it.


----------



## andreaB (Nov 6, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> The type of "thin nerve" I was referring to isn't the type of nerve we see in a dog that's in the corner peeing itself. I will try and describe it like this.
> 
> Take a military troop in a combat zone conducting a patrol. He is observant to everything, possessing everything. He is in a high state of alertness. Maybe a little on edge? It's not that he isn't confident in his team or in his own abilities. Or that he will "snap" at any moment. Just that he's expecting and ready for the worst. After all complacency kills. I'm sure many of you wont understand this analogy but this was the only way I could describe it.


This totally make sense to me!!! and that how they wanted dogs to be in Czech before revolution


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by carmspack 


> suspicion is being sceptical , an interested watchfulness , neither hostile nor friendly .


.


GSD07 said:


> ^^ That's my definition of suspicion as well, i.e. neither hostile nor friendly towards neutral strangers, just observant. I think, a dog can be very suspicious and at the same time very approachable.


I agree with the above. Karlo(Czech/WG) is like this, he is aware of his surroundings at all times. It does make a dog like this a bit more difficult to train because they are basically multi-tasking....keeping one eye on the world and one eye on what is expected of them. 
Tracking can be a bit of a challenge! 

Karlo isn't what I would call thin nerved, sharp or reactive at all and has a higher threshold for the most part. He is quiet in his crate in the vehicle, but if someone puts their hand or face near him, he'll low warning growl. As he's matured his level of suspicion has lowered a bit.


----------



## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

Subscribed. Following this thread closely since my girl is from Czech stock. Not an issue for us, just something to learn and understand for general knowledge.

Wheelchair Bob


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The type of "thin nerve" I was referring to isn't the type of nerve we see in a dog that's in the corner peeing itself. I will try and describe it like this.............


Well, that's not really about "thin nerve". That is more along the lines of social aggression.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> [The type of "thin nerve" I was referring to isn't the type of nerve we see in a dog that's in the corner peeing itself. I will try and describe it like this.
> 
> Take a military troop in a combat zone conducting a patrol. He is observant to everything, possessing everything. He is in a high state of alertness. Maybe a little on edge? It's not that he isn't confident in his team or in his own abilities. Or that he will "snap" at any moment. Just that he's expecting and ready for the worst. After all complacency kills. I'm sure many of you wont understand this analogy but this was the only way I could describe it.


It makes sense to me!

I see it as a dog who is on guard and more alert to everything that's going on around them.. 

I have two dogs that I would say have a higher level of suspicion in them.. And both of these dogs will walk around with their tails held high. Where as my other 3 that aren't suspicious, there tails hang down.. Not sure if that has anything to do with anything, just an observation on my part..


----------

