# They have no reason or obligation to be ethical



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

First, I want to say that this forum does a good job of education potential breeders. The members and staff are firm, but not harsh. 

However, I see a problem with the education and encouragement of potential breeders to breed ethically. You can show them the responsible breeder thread, you can tell them that their dogs need titles and health clearances, and you can tell them that they're going to need plenty of money to breed.

The problem is, they see no reason to follow your advice and suggestions, especially the ones who see it as a business rather than a hobby.

I do remember when I first started coming to dog forums. I had the opportunity to buy two GSDs for $100-$300 each. I was actually planning to start breeding from two GSDs not bred ethically. Fortunately, I was educated and I did not contribute to the downward spiral of a breed and dogs as a whole. If I had not become curious and wanted to know what other dog people thought and knew, I would have probably become an unethical breeder.

I am glad I didn't. I think I see the light and the real consequences of what unethical breeders not only do to their customers, but a breed and dogs as a whole.

Any way, what I am saying is, why should a potential breeder or want to be breeder follow what we suggest and advise? Some of them see money. They see, "I can buy a male and female = $200, and sell the pups for $100 each. If I get 7 pups, that's profit of $500 dollars."

All I want to say and the purpose of this thread is to say that we, as dog and GSD lovers, need to give them a reason to be ethical and responsible breeders. 

I find it sad when someone who wants to be a breeder comes and is bashed into the ground and they go off and become unethical any way. All the people who bashed the person had to do was educate instead of bash. Of course, you've got the ones who aren't going to listen any way, but then there's the ones who love dogs and could make fabolous breeders. They have the passion to contribute to the breed and to dogs as a whole.

I want to say this: The next time someone comes on here or any site saying they want to breed, educate them, but remember: this isn't just to keep dogs out of shelters, this is for the breed and dogs as a whole. I think all educators, breeders, dog enthusiasts, etc, should remind potential breeders of this.

That is all.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

But honestly, when it comes down to the real jist of it, are the reasons provided by knowledgeable members of this board or any other board good enough for the common everyday person to NOT breed their dogs when they don't really understand the concept? 

I think what you are seeing is the frustration behind the repeated posts of people who want to breed their dogs simply because they think they are the best or want a puppy from their dog. It's not as often that you see someone post that they love the breed itself and would like to find out and understand HOW you can become a good breeder. I also think that there is a fine line between what can be called bashing and someone just giving it to them straight.

I believe there are also many members here that work in rescue and foster as well, and have too many times seen the results of these "not well thought out" breedings... Just my thoughts on the matter.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't see the point of your post.



> I want to say this: The next time someone comes on here or any site saying they want to breed, educate them, but remember: this isn't just to keep dogs out of shelters, this is for the breed and dogs as a whole. I think all educators, breeders, dog enthusiasts, etc, should remind potential breeders of this.


I've seen plenty of this on all of those threads.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I see it more as a business than a hobby. I think it is actually better the people who see it as a business and not just a hobby. 

A hobbyist spends his time, money, and talent on something they love, and that is all well and good, but people have varying degrees of passion for their hobby, and my cycling hobby went caput after an injury, and I don't know, when we are talking about contracts and warrantys, I think I want more than just a whim. 

With people who are doing this as a business, they can be very good, or very bad. If I was running this as a furniture business and the employees are my dogs, and the product is my puppies, some of my employees would be fired. From a complete business sense it may make better sense to download them or euthanize them. And someone with good business sense and no ethics would do just that. I see it a little different. I see taking care of those that wash out, retire, or are returned is a cost of the business. And reputation is everything in this business. Treating dogs badly will give a bad name -- worse than failing to do some testing, or breeding outside of the lines, or even breeding too young. 

For people who are looking at it as a business, the good ones care about their reputation, and they have true feelings for and responsibility toward all their dogs. They are going to make it their business to take care of details. If we could make it pay to health check, to train and title, to get the best bloodlines, to breed carefully and responsibly, to be involved in every aspect of dogs, then I think more breeders would do more. It is unfortunate that the breeders who do the least, and sell cheaper can make more, by breeding and selling more puppies, then the better breeders who breed only their better dogs, and only how many they can manage well. 

It is the oops-people that we can really do nothing with. You cannot educate people who claim the whole business was an accident. 

Hobbyists and business people -- the good ones will continuously learn, will try new things, will delve ahead, will pick and choose, but there is hope for both to be really good breeders.

For the almighty oops breeder -- don't bash me, it is already done, I don't know, there is nothing you can do and no where to go with these. I mean, you can harp on them, but it _is_ already done. And after 13 pages, the following week another will come on saying, help Codie just got our 10 month old Nickie, we do not believe in abortions, what do we do? 

And it is really, really hard not to smack them upside the head because of what just went on last week with the other people. It is hard to remember that this new person looked for this site only after the tie, and has no idea whatsoever why people are frustrated.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the OP states his point rather clearly.



GSD Fan said:


> The problem is, they see no reason to follow your advice and suggestions, especially the ones who see it as a business rather than a hobby.
> 
> All I want to say and the purpose of this thread is to say that we, as dog and GSD lovers, need to give them a reason to be ethical and responsible breeders.





Catu said:


> >>>>>I don't see the point of your post.<<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen plenty of this on all of those threads.


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## Mom2Shaman (Jun 17, 2011)

I know it feels like answering these threads over and over again is like being broken record -- not that all people still know what that term means -- maybe a scratched CD -- anyway, yes OP, your point is right. A LOT of people start out planning to breed their "wonderful" and "papered" and "champion-line" BYB pets. With education rather than bashing, there WILL be people who say "oh forget the idea" and spay/neuter their animal and maybe even choose a shelter animal for a companion for it rather than breeding to keep a pup and sell the rest. They may even tell the people who claim to want one of their pups to go get a shelter animal. There also WILL be a smaller proportion of people who will educate themselves and breed good quality animals that are healthy in mind and body, people who will join the hobby for true love and desire to better the breed. However, the bashees just go "forget you people" and go off and do it anyway. I know after the 100th time saying why not to breed pretty pet to handsome pet it gets frustrating. However, the bashee was not exactly present the other 99 times like the people here have been. Your point, OP, is valid. If someone chooses NOT to post they condone by silence. If someone chooses to bash, the bashees just call you a bunch of names in the privacy of their computer space and go do what they want anyway none the wiser.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The only way to get people to raise their standards is to not buy from those who have low standards. 

That means, if a well bred pup who is 1-3k, then you have to stick to your guns and shell out instead of spending 200-400 to the hobby-byb. I know you will turn down the business-byb, and well and good. But spending 200-400 and getting a puppy whose owner did not do some crucial things is actually really, really bad. Titles and health screenings WILL NOT assure you an easily trained, healthy puppy, but buying a cheap dog from a Hobby-BYB means that we are rewarding the wrong people with our business. 

I KNOW a breeder who gave up on health checks and no longer bothers with titles because people do not care about them. He can sell all his puppies at eight weeks old for $500, no questions asked. And he just breeds more bitches. It is a lot harder to sell the more expensive pups,

So the better breeders spend more to produce their puppies, to maintain their puppies, they keep them longer sometimes because it is harder to sell them. And generally all the money goes back into the dogs. 

The only way to force breeders to be ethical, is to refuse to buy from breeders who are not. We will not change a lot here on the forum. People come on saying they just bought this dog, and now they think it was a BYB. And most of us have bought from a less than ethical breeder. But we can encourage and educate our friends and people at training, the things they should look for in breeders. 

Right now there are people on this site, that probably think that it was better to pay only $200-$400 for a pup so that the breeder did not gain so much by the litter than the breeders who sell their pups for over $1000. They probably feel it is less worse. The lesser of two evils -- people are bullied into feeling shame for going to a breeder at all, at least they did not give them more money, more incentive. 

If we want to encourage ethical breeding, then we have to pay the ethical breeders for puppies, and not pay the unethical breeders -- not buy from them.


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## Mom2Shaman (Jun 17, 2011)

How about the BYB who charges "competitive rates" with the dedicated ( for lack of a better term ) "professional" breeder? In SoCal, for example, there is a mini aussie breeder who has some really top stuff. There is another BYB in that same area with an amazing website with music and great graphics, but not quality animals or pups. Charges about $100 less than the quality breeder to look like a bargain. The whole area is convinced good mini aussies cost $1200 and look no further. Only a trained eye and some watching over time shows one to produce quality and the other to produce, um, insert fecal-reference expletive of your choosing. It's the sort of the opposite of Selzer's last post. Just convince the whole region that any quality animal costs X and just charge that no matter. That actually ticks me off much more than the $200 bargain-basement as-is pup seller (not that I like those people either). If you are selling fecal-reference expletive, at least don't fleece the people out of top bucks. It's like double evil.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sure there are people selling puppies that do not have nearly the blood lines or the quality of other dogs and charging through the nose for them. $230k for a dog -- sorry. But mostly those selling dogs cheap and producing more, and cutting every corner have a greater section of market share than the better breeders. 

What is the proverb, "a fool and his money are soon parted"? I am less worried about the breeder who is charging top dollar for medium grade dogs. The people willing to pay for a good dog, most of them will do some homework before buying. Some people have too much money and can afford to pay for the prestige of having an expensive dog. If they want to buy a puppy for 20k, that is probably exactly what they got -- an expensive puppy.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

All the ethical breeding practices can be presented until you're blue in the face. People will do what they are hardwired to do after information is presented to them (ie giving them the opportunity to be educated).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This is the reason that we need to educate people about the breed. There are many people on this forum that feel much more equipped to make decisions because of the dialogues about the breed. The future QUALITY breeders are thirsty for knowledge....the perspective owner that feels a passion for this breed is thirsty for knowledge. We sell people short that they can't see through fluff and substance in many of these discussions. People who are objective and just want to learn can determine who is making sense; and who is spouting rhetoric to support their respective camps. 
When we provide this information and knowledge, the people who want to benefit will drink, others will read and continue what they do. Cream rises to the top....trust me!
The price of a dog has nothing to do with quality. Period. The knowledge of the breeder and quality of dogs has everything to do with good breeding.
I try not to bash the new person who wants to put together two dogs because they need to be informed, and most people don't respond or benefit from bashing unless they are in an organization of some type. OTOH, the really knowledgable people of the breed are less inclined to bash anyway... I liken it to owners/handlers/trainers of the highest order. The handlers tend to be the most passionate, vocal, and strongly opinionated especially along the way they have been successful. The great trainers have to know how to do things many different ways because all dogs are different and they also have to know how to work successfully with others handlers...ie people.
This holds true for people's comments to newbies, or individuals with good intentions but lack of knowledge....the handler type will bash or criticize them and lose them more often than not, thus defeating the purpose they espouse to want, while the trainer type will try to connect with them so that their information will be received maybe resulting in altering the newbies thinking.
Hey, I could be offbase, But I tend to agree with the OP in concept, and when I hear the comments that the newbies intent is so inciteful to people that they HAVE to lash out....it becomes about them and not the newbie.
Just my thoughts....
Now for the supposed veterans of the breed that are ill informed.....that's another barrel of apples:help:.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Catu said:


> I don't see the point of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen plenty of this on all of those threads.


I am sorry you feel this way.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> the OP states his point rather clearly.


 
I agree that her point is very clear. And I have felt the same way many times.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Catu said:


> I don't see the point of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





GSD Fan said:


> I am sorry you feel this way.


I believe what Catu is saying is that what you're asking people to do is mostly being done. Therefore they don't see the necessity of your post.

There are a handful of posters here who do criticize and can get snarky. But most seem to try to educate.
That is what Catu is was trying to convey. At least that's how I read it.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> That is what Catu is was trying to convey. At least that's how I read it.


That's how I took it as well.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly there aren't enough hours in the day for me to get everything in my own life done let alone worry about what other people are doing and why. I guess if people want to spend $5000 on an unhealthy dog from someone who has never trained or titled a dog in years it's their money..... IMO people only hear what they want to hear anyway.


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