# Pom to Shepherd and back



## gewaltiger Sturm (Jan 25, 2012)

I know this is a GSD forum but work with me here. We have our land shark trolling around. We have a 3 y/o spoiled Pom. I dont let the puppy get to rough with the Pom because I know its not a good thing to be pounced on from some floppy, uncordanated galoot. I understand the "its my bone dont even think about it". He will steal anything he can from the puppy. (he has always been a theif) He cant stand him ti have a bone. He will go into the ex-pen and nab a bone and be off with it. 
Here is the problem. The Pom will just out of the blue be a complete jerk to the puppy. They can chill beside each other with no problem and then for no reason the Pom wants to be a butt. I know its the "Im older than you and you will listen because I am going to be dominant" Problem is, its hard to be dominant when you weigh 10 lbs. Well now the puppy seems like he has had enough and will now from time to time decide he is going to stand up for himself. Obviously I dont want the Pom hurt. Any suggestions on how to stop this behavior? 
They are NEVER left alone with each other. They are fed seperate.
Is this something Im just going to have to deal with? I have always had GSD and never a small dog. My last GSD would take new born kittens and pick one as his own. He would, against the mother cats wishes, pick a kitten, pick it up and take it to the living room and lick and protect it. (I ended up having to keep a few cats because of this.)
Bottom line is it would devistate, along with get me divorced, if anything happened to the Pom.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Never ever let a puppy correct an adult. 

Don't let your Pom display those behaviors toward the puppy, period. If you see your Pom advancing to take something from the pup, make him back off. I'm sure that even with his own bone, he wants to take the pup's, but just be persistent on making him chew his OWN bone/toy/etc.

Don't let the pup get too rough with the Pom, and don't let the Pom boss around and bully the pup.


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## CMeredith (Jan 28, 2012)

Yeah, it seems like you just need to ensure that they both understand that YOU'RE the alpha - not the Pom or the GSD. Positive reinforcement when they're getting along well and removal from when one decides to exert dominance. Just be consistent every single time they're together. Obviously easier said than done but if they're never alone together, it should be easier to control their interactions.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

While I'm not big into the whole "I'm alpha, grr" mentality I do believe in not letting the dogs correct the other dogs. My thing is I want my dogs to look to me for leadership and know I will protect them so they don't have to do it themselves.. strange dog comes up they look to me and "I" back the other dog off I don't want the dog making the decision of when it should react and feel the need to correct another dog or even a person.

Right now with the foster pup she is a resource guarder so I correct her when she's growling because it's not allowed but I also back Jinx up so she's not crowding the pup making her insecure if Jinx is a brat (happens often lol) and takes something from the pup I get up remove it from Jinx's mouth and give it back to the puppy I don't care if it really is hers to begin with she is to share and is NOT allowed under any circumstances to just go and take something from the other pup (or dogs visiting) You just have to be a full time referee between them eventually it gets better as they learn what is expected and what is not allowed. Kind of like with kids if one kid hits the other you don't want your other kid hitting back because then a fight breaks out and you don't want them correcting their sibling (grounding etc..) you as the parent step in do the correcting between them. I know it's frustrating right now but it'll get easier as they fall into their rolls. Right now its the pup refusing to be bullied and your Pom thinking he runs stuff and everything is "mine mine mine" Like the jealous older sibling crawling in the crib when a new baby comes home haha.

As I speak Jinx just took the Kong away from the pup and keeps wanting to take it however we have had this Kong for over a year and she never touches it she HATES kongs no matter what they are filled with but right now this plain empty year old Kong is apparently her favorite toy of all time simply because the pup likes to chew on it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I know its the "Im older than you and you will listen because I am going to be dominant" Problem is, its hard to be dominant when you weigh 10 lbs. Well now the puppy seems like he has had enough and will now from time to time decide he is going to stand up for himself. Obviously I dont want the Pom hurt. Any suggestions on how to stop this behavior?


I've never had a dog that small with my shepherds but I did have a 35-40 lb. mix. Whenever we brought a puppy into the house she took dominate and rolled them right away when they were pups and I let her. She was the senior dog and had every right to be boss. With my Buddy she was so bossy I don't think he ever figured out that he was bigger than her. But at about 3 Shadow had enough. He was dominate male and he decided he wasn't going to take her stuff any more. One day we were all outside and I saw in his eyes that it was going to happen. I had the hose ready to spray him if I had to get them apart but I steped back out of it. Turns out I worried for nothing. He let her know in no uncertain doggies terms that he was bigger, badder and he wasn't going to take it any more. However he was very gentle about it and she was no fool she let him become big boss. I WAS extremely lucky!


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

without getting into an argument I will just repeat my post. YOU make sure you step in and stop both of them from this so they know to look to you to keep order in the house.

No way in heck is it ever ok to let your dog run over and alpha roll a puppy that did nothing just because the bigger dog can. That is a very severe correction and should not be used "just because" sorry but thats a dog being a bully and definitely not allowed because it doesn't always end so well.

Not sure this will be your case since your pom is smaller but with us know my girl is playing with the foster pup and they roll around however even in play I don't let her keep the pup pinned long just because it can create issues down the road shes also not allowed to keep the pup in a corner where she can't escape if she wanted to just to make sure issues stay avoided.

Just make sure YOU stay the leader in your house and not let the dogs take to correcting and dominating the others as they see fit and things should be just fine for you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds to me like you have a case of resource guarding from the Pom. I think you need to start there to solve that problem first. And you need to stop any aggression on either side before it starts. If you can't actively monitor them then I would crate one. When you do have them both out, make sure there is a leash on them. I would really watch to see what is triggering your Pom to go after the puppy. Is it toys? Food? Bones? People? I think you need to figure that out.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

To the OP if you choose to go with the "be the boss" method mentioned. Please remember you will always have to be there to stop it. You can never leave them alone together without worrying about what will happen because just like in any situation if the boss is not around....


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## CMeredith (Jan 28, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> To the OP if you choose to go with the "be the boss" method mentioned. Please remember you will always have to be there to stop it. You can never leave them alone together without worrying about what will happen because just like in any situation if the boss is not around....


Hmmm...Not really sure that's based on any known behavioral science. I've never heard any trainer advocate for allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order in the house. I've occassionally allowed a bouncy puppy to get a little lesson from a cat, but I'm not worried about the cat becoming regularly aggressive and dominant.

You need to make it clear that dominant and aggressive behavior is never okay. If you want to attribute human qualities to dogs, then I'd say that people can be taught to do the right thing even when the boss isn't around - simply because they know it's the right thing.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

CMeredith said:


> *Hmmm...Not really sure that's based on any known behavioral science*. I've never heard any trainer advocate for allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order in the house. I've occassionally allowed a bouncy puppy to get a little lesson from a cat, but I'm not worried about the cat becoming regularly aggressive and dominant.
> 
> You need to make it clear that dominant and aggressive behavior is never okay. If you want to attribute human qualities to dogs, then I'd say that people can be taught to do the right thing even when the boss isn't around - simply because they know it's the right thing.


Nope its based on the "I hate Holmes and will disagree with her on everything method" 

However it also is not generally recommend to leave a full grown german shepherd out alone with a small dog unsupervised for any length of time just in case of the "what ifs" always better to be safe then sorry. Seen many times (mainly with terriers and the like) where dogs were fine for years came home little one was dead no one knows what happened but might have been no one around little dog got bossy bigger dog decided to take a stand and just the size and power difference things can get out of hand quick.


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## CMeredith (Jan 28, 2012)

Sounds reasonable, and maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never had issues like this.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

CMeredith said:


> Hmmm...Not really sure that's based on any known behavioral science. I've never heard any trainer advocate for allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order in the house. I've occassionally allowed a bouncy puppy to get a little lesson from a cat, but I'm not worried about the cat becoming regularly aggressive and dominant.


What I'm saying is you have to back the old dog, the one that was there first. The puppy is a puppy and just learning. If you have done your job right the older dog no matter what the breed will know house rules. Do not let the puppy bully the older dog. I would think that if you step in too often that could create problems. I'm not advocating allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order but you can't expect the pom to just allow the bratty newcomer access to what was once exclusively her house, her toys and her family.


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

I have had some bad experience with this. My mother-in-laws GSD came along after their miniature poodle (3years at the time). The same thing happened you are talking about. The mini-poodle would resource guard almost anything and one day when the GSD was all grown up, the mini-poodle went too far and let's just say it didn't end well. Believe me when i say this, my in-laws put up no sort of boundaries and this obviously didn't help the outcome, since they thought it was cute that the mini-poodle was bossing around the GSD. I tried to intervene a few times and explain to them how bad this could possibly get, but it went in one ear and out the other. Do all you can do now to stop this behavior before it ends up with a lot of negativity.


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## CMeredith (Jan 28, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> What I'm saying is you have to back the old dog, the one that was there first. The puppy is a puppy and just learning. If you have done your job right the older dog no matter what the breed will know house rules. Do not let the puppy bully the older dog. I would think that if you step in too often that could create problems. I'm not advocating allowing aggressive behavior to set the pecking order but you can't expect the pom to just allow the bratty newcomer access to what was once exclusively her house, her toys and her family.



I understand what you're saying but I just have a different view. I tend to place an expectation on the older dog to be the grown up  Puppies are....puppies! I expect my older dog to show some restraint (because I've trained her that way) and to trust that I'm not going to let the puppy annoy her to the point that SHE has to put a stop to it. That's what I'm there for. But as dogs get older they should understand that aggression and dominance don't have any place in the family. That said, there IS sometimes some retaliatory behavior when one of the dogs has had enough. The bully gets the message but I still correct the dog that snapped. It becomes a learning point for both dogs.

As for the "bratty newcomer" getting access to everything that was once the older dog's...that's an absolutely valid concern. But there are other ways to address that other than letting the older dog smack the newcomer around. When you bring a new baby into the house, it's natural for older siblings to be jealous. You address that by creating good feelings associated with the new baby (Look! You're baby sister gave you a present!) You don't let the toddler push the baby in order to teach it to stay away from its toys.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

CMeredith said:


> I understand what you're saying but I just have a different view. I tend to place an expectation on the older dog to be the grown up  Puppies are....puppies! I expect my older dog to show some restraint (because I've trained her that way) and to trust that I'm not going to let the puppy annoy her to the point that SHE has to put a stop to it.
> 
> *Actually I think I understand what you are saying. I expect the older dog to show some restraint as well. But puppies being puppies I don't expect the older dog to have to put up with everything and I'm not always going to see 24/7. At some point I'm going to have to trust my older dog to do the right thing. *
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on the situation.  I never felt my older dogs behavior was overly agressive or out of line. She just wasn't going to put up with two big rambunctious puppies being the boss. She did what any good doggie mommy would have. She low growl or wack them with a paw if they got out of line. Thew would roll and behave for a little bit and then would be back up playing again. I saw no reason to stop her from doing what came natural to all of them. I was still the boss over all. She just took over doggie mom duties and was great at it. As I said from the beginning I'm not sure this would have worked had she only been 10 lbs instead of 35. I've always also tried to keep things even.. If I had a female I'd bring in a male, if I had a male I'd bring in a female so there was a lesser chance of conflict that way.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> I guess it depends on the situation.  I never felt my older dogs behavior was overly agressive or out of line. *She just wasn't going to put up with two big rambunctious puppies being the boss. She did what any good doggie mommy would have. She low growl or wack them with a paw if they got out of line. Thew would roll and behave for a little bit and then would be back up playing again. I saw no reason to stop her from doing what came natural to all of them. I was still the boss over all. She just took over doggie mom duties and was great at it. As I said from the beginning I'm not sure this would have worked had she only been 10 lbs instead of 35. I've always also tried to keep things even.. If I had a female I'd bring in a male, if I had a male I'd bring in a female so there was a lesser chance of conflict that way*.


I actually agree with all of this.. (I know shocking right?  ) Just one tiny thing.. the part about her not letting the puppies be boss I'm not sure its the puppies trying to be boss as much as just puppies being puppies and as we all know they can get rather annoying as young pups and get on older dogs nerves kind of quick. As far as an older dog being dominant/aggressive to a pup I think you're setting yourself up for failure (you as a general term not specifically YOU) Trying to keep the bothersome puppy from annoying the heck out of the older dogs should be the duty of the owner however an older dog doing a little "training" to the youngster I think is perfectly acceptable so long as the older dog doesn't over do it. Right now my girl is not allowed to "correct" the puppy as far as an actual correction goes however when the pup has a shoe that I didn't see and Jinx goes and takes it from her and brings it to me I allow it. This pup is easy however in the past when i've had young pups going nuts and the older ones would do a growl or "snapped AT" but didn't touch I would allow that as well within reason. However letting the older dog do the whole "everything in the house is mine, toys are mine, treats are mine, bones are mine etc.. I do not allow AT ALL. I get the older dog was there first however they are required to share.. puppy is not allowed to take it from older dog and older dog may not take it from younger dog.. and older dog may not prevent puppy from taking something that was on the floor with no one around it either. When I posted I wasn't referring to allowing the older dog "mother" them so much as when you said: 



shepherdmom said:


> Whenever we brought a puppy into the house she took dominate and rolled them right away when they were pups and I let her. She was the senior dog and had every right to be boss.


This sounds like you brought the pup in set it down and she just rushed them and pinned them to show them "whos boss" from the get go.. not that they were annoying the heck out of her and she did it as a correction. One is an adult having enough of the puppy antics and the other is just being a bully.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Holmeshx2 said:


> I actually agree with all of this.. (I know shocking right?  ) Just one tiny thing.. the part about her not letting the puppies be boss I'm not sure its the puppies trying to be boss as much as just puppies being puppies and as we all know they can get rather annoying as young pups and get on older dogs nerves kind of quick. As far as an older dog being dominant/aggressive to a pup I think you're setting yourself up for failure (you as a general term not specifically YOU) Trying to keep the bothersome puppy from annoying the heck out of the older dogs should be the duty of the owner however an older dog doing a little "training" to the youngster I think is perfectly acceptable so long as the older dog doesn't over do it. Right now my girl is not allowed to "correct" the puppy as far as an actual correction goes however when the pup has a shoe that I didn't see and Jinx goes and takes it from her and brings it to me I allow it.
> 
> *It is wierd agreeing  but this is actually what I was talking about. The older dog knows the rules, don't chew on shoes, don't eat the furniture and either corrects or tatles on the puppy. Xena loved to tattle on them she would come tell me anytime they were into stuff they were not supposed to be.*
> 
> ...


We just don't communicate very well, I think. :shocked: I would never bring a puppy in and set it down and let an older dog go at it. I'm talking about once the puppy and the older dog are used to each other. Unless you want to be babysitter 24/7 at some point (when it is safe) the dogs are going to have to work it out. If you (general you) get uptight or always have to be the one to correct them both then there are going to be problems. I don't want to be constantly rotating crates and babysitting dogs. I've done that when my dad passed away and mom and her cat moved in. It's not fun to always have to worry if someone will get hurt and with that cat I was never certain if the dogs would win or if it would. :laugh:


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> We just don't communicate very well, I think. :shocked: I would never bring a puppy in and set it down and let an older dog go at it. I'm talking about once the puppy and the older dog are used to each other. Unless you want to be babysitter 24/7 at some point (when it is safe) the dogs are going to have to work it out. If you (general you) get uptight or always have to be the one to correct them both then there are going to be problems. I don't want to be constantly rotating crates and babysitting dogs. I've done that when my dad passed away and mom and her cat moved in. It's not fun to always have to worry if someone will get hurt and with that cat I was never certain if the dogs would win or if it would. :laugh:


Very true it can be a pain and the constant watching isn't the same with aggressiveness as it is with being a referee because after they learn the rules then its a matter of just making sure they play fair and stepping in when one decides to play dirty or things just get too rough.

I'm still not sure I would ever leave a 10 lb dog out alone with a full grown GSD just too many risks involved maybe for a bit while you are outside or whatever but not while your at work or something.. it only takes once with that size difference.


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## gewaltiger Sturm (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. I do want to make 1 thing clear. The Pom and puppy are *NEVER* left alone unsupervised. The puppy has an ex-pen in the kitchen and a crate in the bed room. I would say 90% of the time the puppy is in one of them. He goes in his crate when we go to bed and pretty much stays in his ex-pen the rest of the time. He is let out for training. Well he thinks its just him getting hand fed one bite at a time so I dont tell him any different. He is also let out of his pen when I have a chance to get in the floor and play with him. There are times that he is aloud out just to hang. NOW. the Pom will accualy play with him sometimes and other times its like the devil comes out. The Pom will lay beside the crate or pen when the puppy is in it. I dont let the puppy get to rough. If I see it happening I will step in. The Pom will also jump in the pen or crate and steal him a bone. The puppy doesnt even pay attention because we are his focus. The Pom does gaurd his bone and toys though. After reading some of the post, I will now take the item and put it away. My guess is I have a teenage Pom that will just need to get used to there being another brother in the house. The Pom does tolarate the puppy. Just seems like sometime he wants to flex his little bitty muscle. 
Tuesday of this week I will be installing a nice privacy fence around the back yard so it will take some of the pressure off all of use. Plus once the weather gets a tad warmer we will have plenty of beach time to run off all that energy and some swim time in the lake beside the house.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Holmeshx2 said:


> Very true it can be a pain and the constant watching isn't the same with aggressiveness as it is with being a referee because after they learn the rules then its a matter of just making sure they play fair and stepping in when one decides to play dirty or things just get too rough.
> 
> I'm still not sure I would ever leave a 10 lb dog out alone with a full grown GSD just too many risks involved maybe for a bit while you are outside or whatever but not while your at work or something.. it only takes once with that size difference.


It really would depend on the dogs involved. Our first GSD was so good we could leave her home with the cats and she was fine but she was raised with them. The would curl up on her and cuddle together all the time. Our other shepherds not so much. I think Buddy might be ok. He ignores the neighbor cat but if it was in his house.... ummm not sure, so I wouldn't put him in that situation.


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