# Very new dog to my home and open aggression



## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

Hi all. I just got a 1 1/2 year old male GSD from a breeder as a re-home. His name is Havoc. I had my son here at my house when I got home with the dog. He doesn't live here, but I need him to connect that my son is someone to trust.

So he dropped by today, his name is Mick. With him was my other son, Craig, who was in the area. They are both grown young men. 

Havoc growled at Mick at the door and then was fine. 

Then, later in the visit, Mick who was sitting diagonally across from me, with Havoc on the floor between us, got up abruptly. The dog growled and semi lunged at mick. I corrected him in no uncertain terms. 

As they were getting ready to leave, Craig came up to Havoc to ask for his paw. He again growled very loudly, bared his teeth and lunged toward him. I again very firmly corrected him

What would cause this? I'm very concerned, as these are my family members and I can't let this happen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Did the breeder say why he was being rehomed?


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Did the breeder say why he was being rehomed?


Yes, the original female owner is being treated for cancer and was no longer able to keep him. There were no red flags beforehand, the breeder said he is a very calm loving boy. 

When this happened today, I messaged the breeder. She says maybe the dog is just seeing "too much at once" here in his new home. It's been just over 1 day.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Maybe the two week shut down is a good thing here. If you search that here it will give you steps to do. You have to remember everything has changed for him. Maybe getting a crate and letting him see everything around him without any interactions would be best.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You just got this dog yesterday,correct?Before jumping to any definite conclusions,allow him a month long period to get acclimated to you and his new home and routine.Put him away when guests or family are visiting.Take things slow and get to know each other.Then you can more accurately access any temperament issues and come up with an action plan.My guess is he's feeling overwhelmed right now and it's best to introduce new experiences,people,other animals in a few weeks,and a little at a time.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> You just got this dog yesterday,correct?Before jumping to any definite conclusions,allow him a month long period to get acclimated to you and his new home and routine.Put him away when guests or family are visiting.Take things slow and get to know each other.Then you can more accurately access any temperament issues and come up with an action plan.My guess is he's feeling overwhelmed right now and it's best to introduce new experiences,people,other animals in a few weeks,and a little at a time.


This ^^^^ to much to, fast to, to soon! The dog does not even know you!!

He needs to trust you before he will trust anyone else. And yanking and cranking on him ... is a pretty poor start in my view.

It's not a puppy or a Lab it's a new dog in a house he does not know full of people he does not trust. Slow your roll, start with the first link here:


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

Welcome aboard.


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## Strikker (Dec 2, 2015)

I agree with the slow it down approach. Havoc will take time to understand that you are his person and your home is his home too. I am not a big fan of isolating the dog from visitors as I have found this can create jealousy and aggression. I am more a be in control the dog on a leash when guest are there and work to meet guests then have dog at a down stay with you reassuring him until Havoc can adjust to guest not being danger.
I also found that if you are close enough to a shopping center where you can walk Havoc where people are helps. The two of you bond as Havoc learns to focus and the distraction of people becomes less and less an issue and more an everyday situation. 

Congratulations on your new family member! Pictures?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Craig came up to Havoc to ask for his paw.


You need to make sure people stay neutral and aloof around the dog until you know more about it.

A dog will attempt to get a scent of a person, observe it's body language and get used to hearing a person before it is comfortable with that person approaching the dog.

If the person makes the moves to fast to meet the dog, the dog will tell it to back up or in this case actually lunge toward the person. 

basic way to ask people to act around a strange dog is, ignore the dog, don't approach it, speak to it or look at it. Don't jump around or make sudden movements. Talk lowly and keep cool.

Then the dog gets a chance to get a feel for the person.

Try not to make the dog center of attention as well. It always happens that when you get a new dog people want to meet him and call to see him, but it is better to give some time for them to actually meet him.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

So it's a week now, mostly just him and I with some visits from my son. Took him for a ride yesterday, and stopped at the BIL's for a beer in the garage. All ok, he first barked when meeting Peter, but was corrected and quickly calmed down.

His wife came into the garage and everything was fine too. She later went to the house, and came back to the garage where we were sitting. As she approached, Havoc lunged and nipped her in the abdomen. 

I'm totally shocked and confused...


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I would go back to the breeder and ask more questions and get the breeder to help. Barring that, while it is early in his introduction to you, these are some very questionable behaviors. You could find a good trainer, one that knows the protection breeds well, and have the dog evaluated. And then it is about training investment with someone who can help you manage this dog. BTW, it took 6 months with our adult GSD rescue to figure out what we really had. They take weeks to build trust.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Looks like you didn't take the advice that was given you. The part about taking it slow and keeping him out of social situations.

What you have begun now is to instill negative training into him. 3 or 4 more negative experiences in social settings and you're well on your way to having "trained" him to react badly every time, possibly for the rest of his life. 

The dog is learning. Continued stress in social situations that he is not ready for because there is no trust and bond yet are teaching him this is the go to response. It may not make sense to you, but take a look at your progress in the last week with this problem...... right back to square one.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Looks like you didn't take the advice that was given you. The part about taking it slow and keeping him out of social situations.
> 
> What you have begun now is to instill negative training into him. 3 or 4 more negative experiences in social settings and you're well on your way to having "trained" him to react badly every time, possibly for the rest of his life.
> 
> The dog is learning. Continued stress in social situations that he is not ready for because there is no trust and bond yet are teaching him this is the go to response. It may not make sense to you, but take a look at your progress in the last week with this problem...... right back to square one.


^^^^^ This exactly. You came to this forum for advice, from very experienced GSD breeders, owners, trainers, and owners of GSD rescues. You were given excellent advice that has been used over and over again, and proven successful. You were told to give Havoc at least 2 weeks with no social events, and that includes NOT taking him over to a buddy's for a beer... You were even advised to stretch that shut-down time to a month, to go slowly with him. Yet you decided you knew best and didn't follow the advice, and now you wonder what went wrong. You don't have golden or a lab, you have a German Shepherd.

Everyone here loves GSDs and wants you to succeed with this dog. But it's very frustrating when someone is given advice that is the result of countless years of experience, and that person doesn't follow it. This poor dog was parted from his person, he is confused, upset, wanting his life to go back to what it was. Please, for the sake of Havoc, you, your son, and anyone who may eventually come in contact with this dog, do as everyone here is asking you to do. And better still, if you can find a trainer who is definitely experienced with GSDs, get some help. These are great dogs, but you have to realize that there will be time and effort involved to bring that wonderful dog out to bond with you.

Best wishes for your success, really. Please don't take any of this negatively, we all want this situation to work out for the best.

Susan


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I adopted a 1.5 year old GSD male several years ago. He was surrendered to the Humane Society. I had him for about 3 weeks. I could tell that he had not bonded to us yet and he was unsure of how to respond in certain situations. He was depressed in that he would not play and showed no interest in much on his walks. 

I had to go in and work overtime one day. My husband and I had discussed Max's need to be in the part of the yard with the high fencing at all times and never let into the side yard with the 3' fence.

But, he was mowing the lawn while I was at work and let Max into the side yard where he was working. Max hopped the fence and was hit by a van. It was on a Sunday and our local vet was closed so he drove around for 45 minutes trying to find a vet that was open. Max bled out in the back of the truck.

This dog had no chance to bond to us. We knew he was surrendered by an owner that lived in our community. We think that he was trying to get home to his owner..... GSD's are very intelligent - they don't forget. It's possible your dog has a lot of confusion and a want just to go home to "his owner", who he probably knows is sick. He probably does not understand why people took him away from his owner.....

Just something to think about that might help you with the patience thing...
Keep him safe, let him know you care and don't put him situations where he can get into trouble. Can you hire a trainer after a few weeks of quiet/bonding time?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

rd people advised a two week minimum shut down. You did a week. You are confused by the dog's behavior? I'm confused by yours.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

middleofnowhere said:


> rd people advised a two week minimum shut down. You did a week. You are confused by the dog's behavior? I'm confused by yours.


So magically after one more week he wouldn't bite? Don't patronize me with your flippant comments. Why not be more intelligent and offer some insights. 

How I see things is perhaps the breeder has not been fully open with me, and that perhaps there was some underlying behaviour issues in the first place. He's a 1 1/2 male, seems very bonded to me already. But overly protective. 

My thought is keeping him shut down will make the problem worse. I have reviewed the 2 week shut down as advised. Not everyone agrees with that method, including the breeder when I asked her about it.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Since he has already "nipped" one person in the weeks that you have had him, possibly the first owner didn't tell the breeder the true temperament of this dog and he most likely acted like this with the first owner and she was afraid to tell the breeder the truth.
You need to slow down with him, quit forcing him into situations that he is uncomfortable with until you actually can figure him out. If indeed he acted like this with his first owner, he may become even worse in time. 
I might consider returning him to the breeder. He bit one person already in a friendly situation. He might be the type of dog that will not fit into your way of life. He might never be a friendly dog and taking him into situations at other peoples houses or even having your sons come into your home will never be a safe situation.


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

raggdoll said:


> So magically after one more week he wouldn't bite? Don't patronize me with your flippant comments. Why not be more intelligent and offer some insights.
> 
> How I see things is perhaps the breeder has not been fully open with me, and that perhaps there was some underlying behaviour issues in the first place. He's a 1 1/2 male, seems very bonded to me already. But overly protective.
> 
> My thought is keeping him shut down will make the problem worse. I have reviewed the 2 week shut down as advised. Not everyone agrees with that method, including the breeder when I asked her about it.


How many pups have you trained? rehomed? maybe this breed of dog is not the right one for you.
put in the work and the pay off is great, cut corners and it will blow up in your face.
maybe his overly protective is really fear,
I mean picture yourself in his shoes. 
Dragged to a different country knowing no one. all you would want is to go home. Hes a smart dog not a circus monkey. Give it the time for him to trust you and actually be himself. I dont think your seeing his real personality yet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That dog is not protecting YOU. That dog is protecting himself. Something is triggering this. And he's doing so in an inappropriate way. Dogs do not just go for a bite. They work up to that. So for 1.5 years, he's been giving off warnings that have not been managed. Probably first submissive calming signals, then avoidance, then growling and then biting. Someone, somewhere missed the boat on this.

I don't know your breeder. Don't care too. But, as a person who has worked in rescue, I can tell you that it take 2-4 weeks to really see the dogs true personality. Unless you are a professional and really know what signs to look for. But for a lay person? 2-4 weeks. And if you think the breeder has not fully disclosed behavioral issues with you, do you really want to trust her input on training if she's in denial about the true nature of this dog?

The 2 week shut down is not to shut the dog down. It's to let the dog acclimate to its environment. Then you add the socializing and exposure in. So yes, it's possible that magically after one week he wouldn't bite if it's done correctly.

To be honest, as you've taken a hostile tone above, I doubt anyone here can help you. I would advise finding a trainer who can see the dog in person. There are so many little signs that you will miss that a professional standing aside will catch. This dog is young. Possibly catered to and spoiled. Possibly genetically sharp. Regardless of the "why", he needs professional input and increased obedience so you can properly manage him.

Good luck with him! This can be fixed by you really do need a trainer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I adopted a 1.5 year old GSD male several years ago. He was surrendered to the Humane Society. I had him for about 3 weeks. I could tell that he had not bonded to us yet and he was unsure of how to respond in certain situations. He was depressed in that he would not play and showed no interest in much on his walks.
> 
> I had to go in and work overtime one day. My husband and I had discussed Max's need to be in the part of the yard with the high fencing at all times and never let into the side yard with the 3' fence.
> 
> ...


There is a reason that German Shepherds are known as the most loyal of all breeds. This poor dog is lost and confused and wanting to go home to its owner. It is a German Shepherd, and many of the breed have little use for strangers in general. I can't help but wonder just what expectations OP has for this dog in the long run. 



raggdoll said:


> So magically after one more week he wouldn't bite? Don't patronize me with your flippant comments. Why not be more intelligent and offer some insights.
> 
> How I see things is perhaps the breeder has not been fully open with me, and that perhaps there was some underlying behaviour issues in the first place. He's a 1 1/2 male, seems very bonded to me already. But overly protective.
> 
> My thought is keeping him shut down will make the problem worse. I have reviewed the 2 week shut down as advised. Not everyone agrees with that method, including the breeder when I asked her about it.


Raggdoll, if you believe the breeder has not been fully open with you about your dog's behavior, what makes you think they were fully open with you about the two week shutdown method?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Because you are not on board with slower introductions and understanding why YOU may be provoking this problem, it will most likely continue.

If there is only one thing that you will listen to with this dog - Muzzle him. This so your refusal to listen doesn't harm your family or friends. You have no way of knowing what you have in this dog. Experience of others says you are misreading the dog and these situations didn't have to happen.

Muzzle the dog around people and other pets until you know what you have. If you are not trained to work with this dog and cut it a little slack - separate yourself from this dog. He needs to go to a home with an owner with more experience or who is willing to hire a trainer straight away. I had asked if you can hire a trainer and no answer, so I'll take that as a no. 

All this advise that you are getting (and rejecting) is getting more direct. That's because we know what a train wreck this can end up being if you continue to misjudge and misread this dog....... We are here to help your dog and to keep others safe so the breed does not get a worse reputation - it's not necessarily about sympathizing with you and honoring your personal opinion. You want the same outcome we do but really don't want the answers you are getting here. Maybe you need a time out to think about the logic of that decision........


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

wyominggrandma said:


> Since he has already "nipped" one person in the weeks that you have had him, possibly the first owner didn't tell the breeder the true temperament of this dog and he most likely acted like this with the first owner and she was afraid to tell the breeder the truth.
> *You need to slow down with him, quit forcing him into situations *that he is uncomfortable with until you actually can figure him out. If indeed he acted like this with his first owner, he may become even worse in time.
> *I might consider returning him to the breeder.* He bit one person already in a friendly situation. He might be the type of dog that will not fit into your way of life. He might never be a friendly dog and taking him into situations at other peoples houses or even having your sons come into your home will never be a safe situation.


I certainly don't feel I'm forcing him into situations. I have this dogs absolute best interest in mind. Certainly, it appears he needs more time with just me, but my gut instinct is there is something the breeder hasn't been totally upfront with me about. 




kelliewilson said:


> How many pups have you trained? rehomed? maybe this breed of dog is not the right one for you.
> put in the work and the pay off is great, cut corners and it will blow up in your face.
> maybe his overly protective is really fear,
> I mean picture yourself in his shoes.
> Dragged to a different country knowing no one. all you would want is to go home. *Hes a smart dog not a circus monkey. *Give it the time for him to trust you and actually be himself. I dont think your seeing his real personality yet.


Why would you draw that comparison, to imply I'm treating him like a circus monkey. Really, come on, how can I not be offended by that and as a result somewhat "hostile"? I am not parading this dog around. I'm trying to do whats best. 



Jax08 said:


> That dog is not protecting YOU. That dog is protecting himself. Something is triggering this. And he's doing so in an inappropriate way. Dogs do not just go for a bite. They work up to that. So for 1.5 years, he's been giving off warnings that have not been managed. Probably first submissive calming signals, then avoidance, then growling and then biting. Someone, somewhere missed the boat on this.
> 
> I don't know your breeder. Don't care too. But, as a person who has worked in rescue, I can tell you that it take 2-4 weeks to really see the dogs true personality. Unless you are a professional and really know what signs to look for. But for a lay person? 2-4 weeks. And if you think the breeder has not fully disclosed behavioral issues with you, do you really want to trust her input on training if she's in denial about the true nature of this dog?
> 
> ...


That was not my intention. But the one line response that poster made to me was inappropriate. And not helpful at all. 

I'm waiting to hear back from the breeder. I am going to have some more specific questions about his first owner and temperament in her care. Right now, with my family and grandchildren's safety first and foremost, I'm leaning on sending him back


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I have my first GSD. You read about it, but if you are new to GSDs, it is difficult to have a working knowledge about how deeply they bond to their owner and how incredibly sensitive they are. I have had great dogs throughout the years, and as wonderful as those dogs were, they were nothing like a GSD.

Yes, returning the dog to the breeder may be your best option. A lab or golden will shake off re-homing easier than a GSD from what I understand. GSD require a huge commitment as I have found, and it's okay not to be up to it and do the right thing for the dog and return it. Best of luck.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

Moriah said:


> I have my first GSD. You read about it, but if you are new to GSDs, it is difficult to have a working knowledge about how deeply they bond to their owner and how incredibly sensitive they are. I have had great dogs throughout the years, and as wonderful as those dogs were, they were nothing like a GSD.
> 
> Yes, returning the dog to the breeder may be your best option. A lab or golden will shake off re-homing easier than a GSD from what I understand. *GSD require a huge commitment as I have found, and it's okay not to be up to it* and do the right thing for the dog and return it. Best of luck.


Thanks for that. I'm just not 100% certain about his temperament now, and how that relates to my kids/grandkids. It's shaken my confidence.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

raggdoll said:


> Thanks for that. I'm just not 100% certain about his temperament now, and how that relates to my kids/grandkids. It's shaken my confidence.


A nervous GSD paired with a nervous handler is a disaster waiting to happen. If you can't get an experienced trainer to help you, then this is not going to end well for you or the dog, and especially not for anyone you keep exposing the dog to.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liulfr said:


> *A nervous GSD paired with a nervous handler is a disaster waiting to happen.* If you can't get an experienced trainer to help you, then this is not going to end well for you or the dog, and especially not for anyone you keep exposing the dog to.



Agreed. 100%. I think returning the dog to the breeder is definitely an option in this case.


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

Hello ragdoll, 

When I got my 7 month old aggressive to everything from leash to dogs to kids, I took the advice to not take him out except for a short walk and only if nothing was on our path. I played with him in my backyard - I totally jack-potted him with treats - he had a new name to learn - and just hung out with him. When I did take him out it was always under threshold .. lots of treats - today he is a decent dog - He can go anywhere and ignore .. would I ever, ever let him around my grand kids? No. Where he lived there were 3 little girls and the youngest one was allowed to gouge his eyes, pull his hair, dig in his ears. So even if it looked like I got him used to my grand-kids,I would still be worried something would trigger an old memory .. they said he only nipped their kids and maybe he did - when I saw him with them his guard hairs up, ears back..parents oblivious - I took him and I am so glad I did but my advice to anyone who isn't extremely experienced in reading dogs to never let their adult rescue GSDs be around the little ones. Just from one grandma to another


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

Im sorry I didnt mean it to come out so harsh, What I mean by circus monkey is circus monkeys are used to new places new faces and change. Your dog isnt. Id hate to see you rush to return your pup with out trying out a trainer or listening to the peeps here, Hes worth the effort Im sure.
Its just a little time and caution to see who he really is. Please try a behavorist or professional trainer,


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

What I meant by forcing him was taking him to a strangers house, in a setting with new strangers way to soon. 
Having you son ask him to shake paws, way to soon.
I think you are risking your grandkids, your children and your friends to being bitten. This dog has issues, way more than either anyone truly knows, or he has some issues that you were not told.
Either way, a bite already, or an"nip", is just the beginning.
Return him to breeder.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Had similar issues with my own dog whom I also adopted when he was about 1yr old.

GSD's, especially ones with a strong/confident disposition, will naturally associate with their owner and immediate family very quickly. 

But anyone who they perceive as a stranger will be treated with suspicion, and sometimes aggressive challenges.

So 2 things:
1) Your dog is a new environment. As others have said, let him get acclimated a bit with your house, you, the neighborhood, ect. before you start doing introductions and having people over.
2) Start some training, if haven't already. Your dog may be somewhat guarded or suspicious of house guests, which is normal for the breed, but he can't be allowed to take charge of the situation and show outright aggression (at least when its not warranted). Obedience training will go a long way in making your dog understand that you're in charge, not him.

If the aggression continues to happen, the other steps you can take for more intensive training and socialization. It's possible too that your dog could have some nervous tendencies when meeting new people (which often take the form of aggressive barking and reactions), but from what you've described so far, your dog doesn't necessarily fit that category.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

raggdoll said:


> So magically after one more week he wouldn't bite? Don't patronize me with your flippant comments. Why not be more intelligent and offer some insights.
> 
> How I see things is perhaps the breeder has not been fully open with me, and that perhaps there was some underlying behaviour issues in the first place. He's a 1 1/2 male, seems very bonded to me already. But overly protective.
> 
> My thought is keeping him shut down will make the problem worse. I have reviewed the 2 week shut down as advised. Not everyone agrees with that method, including the breeder when I asked her about it.


Sorry but ^^^, is not a flip comment it's very astute!

I would say you have an "unpredictable" dog but I can't because you now "know" that "if" given the "opportunity" that dog will bite someone! 

You need too "stop" handling "this" dog like he's a happy go lucky Lab and up your game! 

That same link I posted also had a link to "Who Pet's my Puppy or Dog" *(keep people out of his face.)* Do that and "Train" the "Place Command" and "walk your dog" and you "won't" be having these issues.

Despite what you choose to believe ... you don't have a bond with this dog! If you did he would not be doing "this."

Been there done that it's not a big deal. 

If you are going to continue the "well I guess that did not work?? Approach with "this" dog and people?? Then you should rehome the dog "before" someone gets hurt! 

My dog would have done the exact same things your dog is doing had I given him the "opportunity" to do so. He never got that chance worked out fine, No big deal if handled "properly" and I'm not a "Pro."

But hey if your breeder says "go for it" ...good luck with that. Keep us posted on how that works out???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Raggdoll, if you believe the breeder has not been fully open with you about your dog's behavior, what makes you think they were fully open with you about the two week shutdown method?


Aww man, I should have said that! Good catch!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MacD said:


> Hello ragdoll,
> 
> When I got my 7 month old aggressive to everything from leash to dogs to kids,


LOL ,when I got mine at seven months he was perfect! Fit right in with my Am Band Dawg and my female Boxer!

He laid low for about seven months and then the crap hit the fan!! Maybe he thought ...naw not big enough yet?? When he hit 116 lbs (OS WL GSD) he decided yeah time for a new number one in this dog pack! 

He caught me off guard! The old "my dog changed thing!" That was lesson one ...more were to follow! School of hard knocks ...here we come! :crazy:


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## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

OK, I know I am too late in posting this and only wish I had seen it when first posted - Raggdoll, that dog was NOT returned because the owner had cancer and that is a blatant lie by the breeder. I know the former owner and I own that dog's littermate brother and I know the actual story here. I am really hoping Kama catches up with this breeder.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Stonemoore said:


> OK, I know I am too late in posting this and only wish I had seen it when first posted - Raggdoll, that dog was NOT returned because the owner had cancer and that is a blatant lie by the breeder. I know the former owner and I own that dog's littermate brother and I know the actual story here. I am really hoping Kama catches up with this breeder.


If the breeder lied, the dog has had prior issues, and the OP has the lies documented (ie. emails / paper), this would be the rare occasion I'd fully support going after the breeder via legal methods (ie. sue their a$$ off).


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

The dog has a bite history from previous owner and as a result was returned to the breeder. Nothing to do with illness or cancer.
This breeder needs to be shut down....


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Stonemoore & Saphire - you guys should PM the OP with whatever information you have. Putting the OP in contract with Havoc's previous owner is step one to shutting down that breeder.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

It's been done but what a shame people were hurt as a result of a very irresponsible breeder.


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## Hockeymumtoaidan (Feb 10, 2016)

Hi everyone.. I am the original owner of Raylex's Wreaks Havoc and I can assure you that the Breeder and her vet clinic were well aware of the aggression. There were no medical issues found ( full medical work up) . The only reason I surrendered my beautiful boy was due to the safety of my kids. The Breeder assured me that he would not be re-homed to a family due to the aggression and she would keep him with her. I am completely devastated that not only did I lose an amazing dog but that she would be so negligent and put him in a situation whereby he ends up biting someone and ultimately have to be put down.. I loved this dog and it killed me to have to give him back.. I did everything possible to try and control the aggression but ultimately the safety of my kids and others prevailed and I gave him back.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hockeymumtoaidan said:


> Hi everyone.. I am the original owner of Raylex's Wreaks Havoc and I can assure you that the Breeder and her vet clinic were well aware of the aggression. There were no medical issues found ( full medical work up) . The only reason I surrendered my beautiful boy was due to the safety of my kids. The Breeder assured me that he would not be re-homed to a family due to the aggression and she would keep him with her. I am completely devastated that not only did I lose an amazing dog but that she would be so negligent and put him in a situation whereby he ends up biting someone and ultimately have to be put down.. I loved this dog and it killed me to have to give him back.. I did everything possible to try and control the aggression but ultimately the safety of my kids and others prevailed and I gave him back.


 Oh ... I did not know he was PTS?? I am so sorry!

This was not on you it was on the "Breeder" they put this dog in the hands of someone who "proved" themselves to be incapable of "properly" dealing with the dogs "issues." 

Apparently they were in a hurry to get the dog off there hands and did not ask a lot or enough questions?? I don't know I'm not a "Breeder." 

And again sorry this happened, it's to bad and was not necessary had time been devoted to finding the right home.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Chip, the dog was not PTS. Hockeymumtoaidan described a hypothetical situation.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

yuriy said:


> Chip, the dog was not PTS. Hockeymumtoaidan described a hypothetical situation.


OH!! Well ..then ...never mind!


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## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

We are pretty sure he was put to sleep. There is another thread where the second owner has surfaced with their very sad story.

It has also come to light that the breeder was trying to use this dog as a stud while he was owned by his first owner. His littermate brother that I own is a train wreck and the breeder had seen him and was fully aware. Way over size, 4 white feet, downed pasterns and terrible rear. Weak nerve, no drive, and I have to manage him very carefully with guests and children as he can be aggressive with them. I am curious at this point as to where their sire is and what his temperament is like.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Maybe the sire has already been put down and that is why she was trying to use Havoc as a substitute...
Very sad all around. Unfortunately, a good majority of the time when an adult is placed in a rescue the former owners don't give the true reason why they are rehoming.
It seems in this case, the former owners were truthful to the breeder, who instead of doing the correct thing and having the dog euthanized, the breeder lied and sent the dog out to a new novice owner making up a false story for sympathy for rehoming in what turns out to be a dangerous dog. This breeder definitely needs to be put out of business. You can also turn this type of information into AKC if that is where the dog was registered and they will investigate the breeder and her actions,especially if the first owner has anything showing why they returned this dog to the breeder and that she lied to new owner to dump the dog and not be responsible for him.
How sad all the way around.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Maybe in the hands of the breeder who did not push this young and confused dog who just lost his home and owner, he was calm and loving.

Maybe this poor dog was nothing but a product of two inexperienced homes.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe in the hands of the breeder who did not push this young and confused dog who just lost his home and owner, he was calm and loving.
> 
> Maybe this poor dog was nothing but a product of two inexperienced homes.


Brother is in a good home and belongs to a club and being actively trained. Also showing aggression and structural issues. 

Not all dogs can or should be saved. The dog had been evaluated by experienced people and deemed unsafe. The breeder could be held criminally responsible and negligent. I do hope the owner does what he can to shut down this breeder.

I have a few customers with her breedings and all are heartbroken as their dogs have serious health issues starting at young ages. We are working through them but I guess it further jades my opinion of this kennel.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Saphire said:


> Brother is in a good home and belongs to a club and being actively trained. Also showing aggression and structural issues.
> 
> Not all dogs can or should be saved. The dog had been evaluated by experienced people and deemed unsafe. The breeder could be held criminally responsible and negligent. I do hope the owner does what he can to shut down this breeder.
> 
> I have a few customers with her breedings and all are heartbroken as their dogs have serious health issues starting at young ages. We are working through them but I guess it further jades my opinion of this kennel.


I am not saying we should save them all. Maybe I am mistaken, but isn't this dog of American and Canadian showlines? If that is true, many have weak nerves, no secret there.

Health issues are a whole other ball game, but that doesn't seem to be the problem here unless I missed something.

I guess what I am really saying is that the most alarming thing I read regarding this dog was the mishandling by an inexperienced handler, as well as unrealistic expectations, as being the biggest problem.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not saying we should save them all. Maybe I am mistaken, but isn't this dog of American and Canadian showlines? If that is true, many have weak nerves, no secret there.
> 
> Health issues are a whole other ball game, but that doesn't seem to be the problem here unless I missed something.
> 
> I guess what I am really saying is that the most alarming thing I read regarding this dog was the mishandling by an inexperienced handler, as well as unrealistic expectations, as being the biggest problem.


Weak nerves runs in All lines. You must be careful where you get your pup or dog from. This thread seems to be a monthly topic.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Such a sad story. I wonder what made the breeder think her actions were not going to come back and bite her.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Stonemoore said:


> We are pretty sure he was put to sleep. There is another thread where the second owner has surfaced with their very sad story.


Oh. I didn't realize there was another thread on this. Very sad indeed.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

yuriy said:


> Stonemoore said:
> 
> 
> > We are pretty sure he was put to sleep. There is another thread where the second owner has surfaced with their very sad story.
> ...


 It was mentioned in another thread in great detail. It was a Topic asking specifically about the kennel in question and other breeders in Canada. The post was removed by an admin and they were told to keep it to PM's, but in the removed comments raggdoll said they were told to drop the dog off at an animal hospital where they believe the dog was PTS. Very sad situation all around.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not saying we should save them all. Maybe I am mistaken, but isn't this dog of American and Canadian showlines? If that is true, many have weak nerves, no secret there.
> 
> Health issues are a whole other ball game, but that doesn't seem to be the problem here unless I missed something.
> 
> I guess what I am really saying is that the most alarming thing I read regarding this dog was the mishandling by an inexperienced handler, as well as unrealistic expectations, as being the biggest problem.


The biggest problem is the breeder took a returned dog with a bite history and rehomed it saying the owner had cancer and could.no longer look after him and NEVER disclosing the dog had bit someone....you must see the issue here right?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Saphire said:


> The biggest problem is the breeder took a returned dog with a bite history and rehomed it saying the owner had cancer and could.no longer look after him and NEVER disclosing the dog had bit someone....you must see the issue here right?


I am not so concerned about the breeder not disclosing the bite issue at this point as we do not know what happened at that time. Who did the dog bite? Why did the dog bite? Under what conditions? I can't make that call based on no information other than the dog has bitten somebody. However, I don't accept the breeder lying about the previous owner's health. I called the breeder's integrity into question in the beginning of this thread. 

Regarding bite history, I think things are getting a bit into overkill to want the breeder shut down based on that alone. Perhaps there is much more to it than I am aware of. I would like to add though, that the least of our problems is ONE breeder rehoming a dog with a bite history when it is a practice of epic proportions of many shelters and disreputable rescues recycling dogs with bite histories back into our communities.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

Saphire said:


> The biggest problem is the breeder took a returned dog with a bite history and rehomed it saying the owner had cancer and could.no longer look after him and NEVER disclosing the dog had bit someone....you must see the issue here right?


It was an OUTRIGHT LIE. That's the issue, not the nonsense about an inexperienced handler...


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not so concerned about the breeder not disclosing the bite issue at this point as we do not know what happened at that time. Who did the dog bite? Why did the dog bite? Under what conditions? I can't make that call based on no information other than the dog has bitten somebody. However, I don't accept the breeder lying about the previous owner's health. I called the breeder's integrity into question in the beginning of this thread.
> 
> Regarding bite history, I think things are getting a bit into overkill to want the breeder shut down based on that alone. Perhaps there is much more to it than I am aware of. I would like to add though, that the least of our problems is ONE breeder rehoming a dog with a bite history when it is a practice of epic proportions of many shelters and disreputable rescues recycling dogs with bite histories back into our communities.


Listen, get out of here and your trying and to derail this obvious issue with a lying breeder. 

There have been many other complaints about Raylex. You have no clue what your talking about. Nice plant by Alana


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

raggdoll said:


> It was an OUTRIGHT LIE. That's the issue, not the nonsense about an inexperienced handler...


I think the person you really want to address with that is me.

Call it what you will, but you took a half grown dog of a breed known for being loyal to its owner and aloof with strangers that was grieving the loss of its owner and exposed it to a lot of strangers without giving the dog a chance to wind down, settle in, and bond to you. You really weren't fair to the dog, you expected to much from him too soon, and, in my opinion, you expected too much from the breed. When people tried to advise you of this, you became defensive and did not want to hear it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

raggdoll said:


> Listen, get out of here and your trying and to derail this obvious issue with a lying breeder.
> 
> There have been many other complaints about Raylex. You have no clue what your talking about. Nice plant by Alana


 Hmm ... attacking MAWL does not absolve "you" of responsibility. I don't know the dog or the breeder.

What I do know is that you took a dog who had already made it "crystal clear" to you that he had a "people issue" and you treated him like he was lab and people got hurt.

The dog can't write so he did what he needed to "protect" himself because no one had his back. 

The dog needed time to adjust through "Exposure" not "Socialization" and he was not given that time and people got hurt.

Speaking for myself, I don't need to know anything about a dog with a bite history because under "my" care *they will never be given an opportunity, or put in a position to bite anyone, *been there done that no big deal.

So by all means continue to blame the "lying" Breeder for a situation which "you" by your own admission made worst. I'll stay out of your way.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

raggdoll said:


> Listen, get out of here and your trying and to derail this obvious issue with a lying breeder.
> 
> There have been many other complaints about Raylex. You have no clue what your talking about. Nice plant by Alana


Listen, you don't get to dictate my actions or when and where I post. You came here looking for help, and you got it. Many good, qualified, experienced people tried to help you, but you chose to fight with them rather than heed their advice.

I have not derailed anything. Your post was about a dog that you failed to manage and control on multiple occasions and you were looking for help. Too bad the help did not fit the "poor little me" image that you had hoped it would. Now it has turned to breeder bashing which is not permitted on this forum.

If there are so many complaints about this breeder, why did you get a dog from them? I think if you looked in the mirror, you will find the person that can answer so many of your questions for you, but that would require pointing the finger inward instead of outward and I don't think you have that capacity.

Making false accusations will get you no where. In your mind, I went from somebody that didn't know what I was talking about when I suggested your breeder was not being honest to somebody that is a plant when you became convinced the breeder deceived you. That speaks volumes about who you are, but most following this thread already knew that with your first post on this thread. 

It is sad what happened to YOUR dog. Some people should not own a pet rock.

Chip, stupid is a choice and you can't fix it.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

It's really easy to blame the owner of the dog, it's also very easy to blame breeders. Animals are living creatures and there is no 100% guarantee that all puppies will be amazing dogs regardless of what extreme measures a breeder takes.
The problem here is this breeder lied and in doing so, put people at risk. I would look at this very differently if the breeder had disclosed a bite history along with what he/she believed contributed and did a thorough screening of the home and experience level of the buyer. None of this was done in this case and as a result a 2nd person was bit by this dog. Inexcusable, dangerous and possibly criminally negligent, all to be determined in the near future. 
The brother to this dog is and has shown aggressive behavior, is a structural disaster, as well as difficulty with training and is constantly lame. The dog lives in pain but thankfully has a wonderful owner who's had him from puppy and is able to manage him. She has zero breeder support and instead is told "he's faking it, drama queen etc.
Then there is the young couple who has a young male, so far looks good structurally but has such severe allergies he's covered in sores, itching and almost bald!! Zero breeder support. This is their replacement dog as their first puppy had to be put to sleep at 8 weeks old, 1 week after they brought him home, kidney failure. 
I'm sorry but I've seen these dogs, I've met the owners. Good people that are working really hard to try and get their dogs healthy and a breeder who doesn't care to help and feels it's necessary to lie to place her dogs. 
Blame who you like but until you look into the eyes of these people and see the heartache, you really have no idea and I draw my conclusions from what I have seen with my own eyes. I'm not even going to go into details about how they all are fighting for the registration papers that has led to CKC having to intervene. It is much more than just the 1 dog that brings me to this conclusion.

I'm so sick of crappy breeders! !


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I guess I must have missed something in the translation on these posts. Didn't the former owner of this dog come forward and say they gave up the dog due to aggression issues?

Didn't another poster who owns a sib and is very active with the GSD breed also come forward and back up the original owner and also state that there seems to be a problem with another sib?

This is so much more information than most of us pet quality owners get when something goes way South. What are the odds of people coming forward at this time to disclose additional information such as what happened here?

This is a group that a couple of months ago = when a single mom adopted a young GSD that proved to be nippy and there were recommendations to put that dog down. That dog, apparently was dumped at an overnight drop off kennel at a shelter hours later as a direct result of conversations here about the dangers of that pup.....

I see a conflict here in what advise is given for a young dog with problems and 2 different people who came forward to back that story as opposed to the one that was sent to his obvious death from the single mom that was so well "counseled here - that it lead to it's death. What messages are we sending here? Where is the consistency? Should it really make a difference if a professional breeder is caught in a lie as opposed to the other problem where the previous owner said "no problems" and handed the single mom the leash?

Shouldn't be a distinction IMO.....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I might be mistaken, but wasn't the dog you are talking about being aggressive with the woman's children?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I might be mistaken, but wasn't the dog you are talking about being aggressive with the woman's children?


There were questions about that right away and it was never determined if the pup was just unruly or had true aggression issues. The OP reported that there was "chasing" and "nipping but no bite was reported on the kids or the senior dog in the family. No determination was made. The OP said she did suffer a bite personally when she had the dog outside and was attempting to apply "discipline" to the pup by being "dominant" and yelling at the dog.....

It is impossible to determine what exactly happened between these two owners experiences. The mom and the OP here where he said his buddy's wife got "nipped". There is however a similarity..... inexperienced GSD owners, both handed young adult dogs with previous problems. Holding both the experienced breeder and the woman that handed off her problem pup (thru Craigslist) ad to a young mother with lots of little children and a senior dog.

I do think there are similarities here but hold the breeder with the greater responsibility. If these allegations are true - should there be no penalty and things allowed to continue?

I'm just wondering what happens on this forum when evidence is revealed that presents a true problem attributable to a breeder? Would a report to the AKC really do anything?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> There were questions about that right away and it was never determined if the pup was just unruly or had true aggression issues. The OP reported that there was "chasing" and "nipping but no bite was reported on the kids or the senior dog in the family. No determination was made. The OP said she did suffer a bite personally when she had the dog outside and was attempting to apply "discipline" to the pup by being "dominant" and yelling at the dog.....
> 
> It is impossible to determine what exactly happened between these two owners experiences. The mom and the OP here where he said his buddy's wife got "nipped". There is however a similarity..... inexperienced GSD owners, both handed young adult dogs with previous problems. Holding both the experienced breeder and the woman that handed off her problem pup (thru Craigslist) ad to a young mother with lots of little children and a senior dog.
> 
> ...


I don't remember the details so it is hard to comment. 

However, I have not seen anything that demonstrated to me that this dog acted inappropriately. It might have been a sharper dog and it might have been a nervier dog, but considering the circumstances, I did not view this dog as a serious problem from what was presented. If children were involved, I would definitely be singing a very different tune. There were no details provided for the previous bite, so as it stands, nobody really knows what happened so we should not judge.

I agree that reputable breeders should be held to a different standard, but without being privy to the details between this buyer and seller, we really can't comment on that either.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't remember the details so it is hard to comment.
> 
> However, I have not seen anything that demonstrated to me that this dog acted inappropriately. It might have been a sharper dog and it might have been a nervier dog, but considering the circumstances, I did not view this dog as a serious problem from what was presented. If children were involved, I would definitely be singing a very different tune. There were no details provided for the previous bite, so as it stands, nobody really knows what happened so we should not judge.
> 
> I agree that reputable breeders should be held to a different standard, but without being privy to the details between this buyer and seller, we really can't comment on that either.


I agree. I think there's a point in a post such as this that does indeed put the young dog's life on the line that we have to be very careful about comments. In addition to inexperienced owners - emotions, anger, shock and knee jerk reactions are involved. You are absolutely right, the breeder will be accused first. Not right... 

A new owner's decision (that some are just looking for the posts that support what fate they've already decided) simply cannot be solved here. We've got everything for suggestions on these very serious problems from "view these generic training mini segments online" to - "sorry - I've seen this before and you need to put the dog down". This one certainly has details that are way beyond anything anyone not experienced with this particular litter could advise on. 

I'm not sure why the OP is still doing general posting and not exclusively PM'ing with the two that have direct experience with this pup and litter.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't remember the details so it is hard to comment.
> 
> However, I have not seen anything that demonstrated to me that this dog acted inappropriately. It might have been a sharper dog and it might have been a nervier dog, but considering the circumstances, I did not view this dog as a serious problem from what was presented. If children were involved, I would definitely be singing a very different tune. There were no details provided for the previous bite, so as it stands, nobody really knows what happened so we should not judge.
> 
> I agree that reputable breeders should be held to a different standard, but without being privy to the details between this buyer and seller, we really can't comment on that either.


As you do not know all the details, your comments are useless. Why prop up a lying breeder? All the details you need to know are clearly posted


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lets do a recap...

Dog was in a home, bit someone, but breeder stated person was fighting cancer in order to rehome with no info regarding aggression disclosed? 

Breeder rehomed to second home and dog showed signs of aggression. Did the dog bite a second person?

Dog was dropped off at breeders or at vet to be put to sleep?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

raggdoll said:


> As you do not know all the details, your comments are useless. Why prop up a lying breeder? All the details you need to know are clearly posted


If you withheld details, then your posts, as well as your thread, are useless, as is everybody else's comments. What did you expect? You then openly admit to wasting a lot of people's time.

I would never consider bashing this breeder based on the comments made by somebody like you. You mishandled this dog, you set it up for failure, then you attacked anybody that tried to help you when YOU came here looking for help. No, you are the last person I would believe. You have demonstrated some serious anger management problems on this thread as well. No, you are not believable. 

The prior owner spoke and said the dog was amazing. On the other hand, she stated concerns for her children. We most likely will ever know if she allowed the children to incessantly bother the dog when it ate or slept, or if it attacked without reason, or even if it did more than nip. Those details have been withheld.

The bottom line, you set the dog up for failure. I hope you don't get another dog, especially a GSD.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Lets do a recap...
> 
> Dog was in a home, bit someone, but breeder stated person was fighting cancer in order to rehome with no info regarding aggression disclosed?
> 
> ...


I don't think one can be that simplistic when talking about putting an 18 month old puppy to sleep.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't think one can be that simplistic when talking about putting an 18 month old puppy to sleep.


Do me a favor, call Alana and ask her, she won't talk to me or several other of her "customers"


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't think one can be that simplistic when talking about putting an 18 month old puppy to sleep.


I'm just trying to follow the story and there were a couple confusing posts. Was the dog put to sleep (who made that decision if that is the case?)or not is all I asked. I'm not here to judge either of the owners or the breeder, I'm just trying to follow how everything happened.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

raggdoll said:


> As you do not know all the details, your comments are useless. Why prop up a lying breeder? All the details you need to know are clearly posted


OP - IMO once you had direct contact here with the previous owner and one who owns a sib and is very knowledgable about the litter.... what more can anyone do for you here? We can give general knowledge and tips but nothing as detailed the information you have been afforded.....

What does it really matter who here has any opinion about non specific situations, there are many and will always be many (always with the pups best interest at heart and with the knowledge that 90% of the problems here are due to training/development issues with a novice and untrained pup)

What more do you want said here by people who do not have the detailed knowledge that you now have??? Your questions are not changing, knowing what you know now. This venue cannot be used to break a breeder. How can you be further helped here?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I'm just trying to follow the story and there were a couple confusing posts. Was the dog put to sleep (who made that decision if that is the case?)or not is all I asked. I'm not here to judge either of the owners or the breeder, I'm just trying to follow how everything happened.


I know, it is a confusing thread.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> OP - IMO once you had direct contact here with the previous owner and one who owns a sib and is very knowledgable about the litter.... what more can anyone do for you here? We can give general knowledge and tips but nothing as detailed the information you have been afforded.....
> 
> What does it really matter who here has any opinion about non specific situations, there are many and will always be many (always with the pups best interest at heart and with the knowledge that 90% of the problems here are due to training/development issues with a novice and untrained pup)
> 
> What more do you want said here by people who do not have the detailed knowledge that you now have??? Your questions are not changing, knowing what you know now. This venue cannot be used to break a breeder. How can you be further helped here?


I don't think the OP is looking for help or asking any questions.They haven't really asked any questions and seem to be finding out new info as they go along. Aside from being angry at the breeder and making a comment here and there I dong see the OP asking for anything.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know, it is a confusing thread.


There are like 3 different ones that have to do with this one or something, right?


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> OP - IMO once you had direct contact here with the previous owner and one who owns a sib and is very knowledgable about the litter.... what more can anyone do for you here? We can give general knowledge and tips but nothing as detailed the information you have been afforded.....
> 
> What does it really matter who here has any opinion about non specific situations, there are many and will always be many (always with the pups best interest at heart and with the knowledge that 90% of the problems here are due to training/development issues with a novice and untrained pup)
> 
> What more do you want said here by people who do not have the detailed knowledge that you now have??? Your questions are not changing, knowing what you know now. This venue cannot be used to break a breeder. *How can you be further helped here*?


Simply by letting the truth about Raylex re-homing an aggressive dog with bite history, be known. Thats it...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> There are like 3 different ones that have to do with this one or something, right?


Yes, and it has been requested by others for it to be taken to PM as it was quickly becoming breeder bashing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I'm trying to follow the chain of events. You were going to originally adopt a female of the same age and then within a couple days that changed and this pup was in your home. Was that the through the same breeder and what happened with the female?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

raggdoll said:


> Simply by letting the truth about Raylex re-homing an aggressive dog with bite history, be known. Thats it...


OK - think you got that point across.... Thats it


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## Hockeymumtoaidan (Feb 10, 2016)

Before you judge others, you might want to get your facts straight.. Havoc was the most amazing, loyal, smart and beautiful boy and I loved him as much as I love my children. It almost killed me to have to give him back to the breeder. I only agreed to return him as long as he was not re-homed. If you feel the need to place blame, make sure you have all the facts. I am absolutely devastated at what has transpired and I will never be the same again. Havoc did not deserve this fate. The only thing our family did wrong was love Havoc unconditionally.. If that makes me a bad owner then there is something really messed up in this world.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hockeymumtoaidan said:


> Before you judge others, you might want to get your facts straight.. Havoc was the most amazing, loyal, smart and beautiful boy and I loved him as much as I love my children. It almost killed me to have to give him back to the breeder. I only agreed to return him as long as he was not re-homed. If you feel the need to place blame, make sure you have all the facts. I am absolutely devastated at what has transpired and I will never be the same again. Havoc did not deserve this fate. The only thing our family did wrong was love Havoc unconditionally.. If that makes me a bad owner then there is something really messed up in this world.


Just as you backed up the OP. Your story was backed up, we get that. This is a public forum and not a good place for 2 or 3 people with personal experience with one particular dog or litter to try to develop "support" . There's no point to it..... 

Sorry, but on a public forum that is 1000% pro GSD, they are just that. Most of the time - the lack of knowledge of what is required of the various training requirements of a GSD with different drives and temperament are the source of the problem and simple tips or direction to a trainer can be suggested.

This post went on way long before parties with direct knowledge posted. There - it was recommended you all go to private messaging. None of you apparently chose to do so for whatever reason. Had you done so - you would not be miffed about different opinions voiced here.

There are breeders here, there are trainers as well as regular GSD pet owners - none of us are any use to you in this matter once it gets this specific and you have each other support in whatever sanction you decide to take.

Again - what do you want of posters here once the story has been told?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Hockeymumtoaidan said:


> Before you judge others, you might want to get your facts straight.. Havoc was the most amazing, loyal, smart and beautiful boy and I loved him as much as I love my children. It almost killed me to have to give him back to the breeder. I only agreed to return him as long as he was not re-homed. If you feel the need to place blame, make sure you have all the facts. I am absolutely devastated at what has transpired and I will never be the same again. Havoc did not deserve this fate. The only thing our family did wrong was love Havoc unconditionally.. If that makes me a bad owner then there is something really messed up in this world.


I think it's a good thing to hear the whole story. Why did you give him up? Maybe the whole story minus anything about the breeder can clear things.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

If this dog got put down, I'm sorry to hear it. From what the first owner has said, its a terribly unfortunate and unwarranted outcome.

The breeder and second owner seem to both have made really negligent, bad decisions which culminated in this dog being pts, unnecessarily, from what has been posted here. 

What a sickening shame.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I think it's a good thing to hear the whole story. Why did you give him up? Maybe the whole story minus anything about the breeder can clear things.


It is their business, but I agree and find it rather juvenile to keep posting: " I've got a secret and I'm not going to tell". 

Either the prior owner should post her reasons for returning the puppy to the breeder contingent upon it not being rehomed, or she should just let sleeping dogs lie.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is their business, but I agree and find it rather juvenile to keep posting: " I've got a secret and I'm not going to tell".
> 
> Either the prior owner should post her reasons for returning the puppy to the breeder contingent upon it not being rehomed, or she should just let sleeping dogs lie.


I agree Mine. There's nothing here that can help. When I questioned the Op on the continued posts - they stated it was solely to discredit the breeder....

We are not here for that. IMO end of story.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bottom line, you set the dog up for failure. I hope you don't get another dog, especially a GSD.


I wasn't going to comment on this thread but this post really irritated me, this post is totally uncalled for IMO. 

The OP got a dog from a breeder and that breeder failed to mention that the dog had previously bitten another person. The OP adopted/purchased this dog without knowing it's true history because they were lied to by the breeder.

So how did the OP set the dog up for failure? The dog had issues that the OP didn't know about!

And to say that you hope the OP doesn't get another dog, especially a GSD, that is freaking ridiculous and rude. 

Your post reminded me of why I don't come on this forum much anymore. There are a lot of rude and judgmental people on here who think they do no wrong. Well I can't wait for you to mess up and have people jump all over you.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Well said LaRen616.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Hockeymumtoaidan said:


> Before you judge others, you might want to get your facts straight.. Havoc was the most amazing, loyal, smart and beautiful boy and I loved him as much as I love my children. It almost killed me to have to give him back to the breeder. I only agreed to return him as long as he was not re-homed. If you feel the need to place blame, make sure you have all the facts. I am absolutely devastated at what has transpired and I will never be the same again. Havoc did not deserve this fate. The only thing our family did wrong was love Havoc unconditionally.. If that makes me a bad owner then there is something really messed up in this world.


Im so sorry that this happened it is a very sad ending to a very sad story. I think a lot of people on here want to know more as it may have been possible for the dog to be rehomed with an owner that has experience with a dog with aggressive tendencies and is set up to own a dog like this -no little kids etc. Would it have been possible for this dog to have a successful outcome if the breeder was truthful and made a point to find an owner who is capable of working with this dog such as this. The breeder was at fault here and the fate of this dog no doubt lies in the breeder hands.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LaRen616 said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread but this post really irritated me, this post is totally uncalled for IMO.
> 
> The OP got a dog from a breeder and that breeder failed to mention that the dog had previously bitten another person. The OP adopted/purchased this dog without knowing it's true history because they were lied to by the breeder.
> 
> ...


I am sure there are many people on this forum who have bought dogs from breeders who were less than honest, many will never know. Nobody really knows the bite history of shelter and rescue dogs either, but that does not seem be much of a factor in whether they live or die once adopted out. What is important is how they are managed and controlled from that point forward.

Even if this dog did not have a bite history, the consensus by most posting is that OP still poorly mishandled this dog creating the current problems that needlessly led to its death. The "fact" that this dog even has a bite history has not been clearly established. Was this an over exuberant landshark of a puppy? Was there food aggression? Did he bite the mailman? We could ask a million questions. We will never know, as the prior owner making that accusation is choosing not to speak up and I certainly give little credence to OP and his needlessly combative, and contradictory, attitude. I would not take his word as gold. Right now the facts are being withheld, and without that information, I don't understand how anybody can condone the death of a puppy we know was mishandled and are unsure of its bite history. If you know something the rest of us don't know, please enlighten us so we can all comment from the same reference point.

Perhaps if you had read the entire thread, really read it, you would have noticed OP ask for, and ignore, all the advice by people who did nothing but try to help and had a repeat performance of issues with his dog for his efforts only to follow his less than stellar performance with rude, nasty, and snarky personal attacks on people. You either skipped over those parts or you selectively chose to ignore them while singling out others, how convenient. I guess you feel it is okay for others to be rude as long as they agree with you, but not okay for others to *respond* in kind, although I don't believe my comments have been rude, but simply honest.

If I "mess up", I deserve to have people jump all over me. My dog's lives, and the safety of others, depend on my knowing what I am doing, and failing that, seeking experienced advice AND FOLLOWING IT.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

While I do agree that the OP blew off the initial advice, I think it's very important to remember none of us here know this dog and, therefore, can not form an educated opinion on the stability of this animal.

I've fostered a dog that a person would think was a wonderful sweet dog. Until he wasn't. And you never knew when that would be. The adopters, knowing his full history, gave him 7 of the best months he most likely ever had before euthanizing him. I watched a beautiful young male this weekend. That was dangerous. He already put a serious bite on one of his owners. And he'll do it again. Not because of mismanagement. But because of breeding.

Several people on this thread are saying the same thing about the dog in question and the breeding. There seems to be plenty of blame to go around but with all the information provided over the last couple of days, that finger goes right back to the breeder.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I've been in that situation with fosters. We were given a dog that we ended up keeping long term as they couldnt find an adopter. She was good with me but tried to bite several people when in a stressful situation. I didn't like stressing her, but we had to test her before putting her out for adoption. I found out two weeks in she had been abused and I was never told. I finally came out and asked and was told the truth by the rescue. That adoption had a happy ending. I worked with her on obedience and manners before we gave her up, so they got a better dog going out than she was coming in. My recommendation was an adult only home in a rural area where the dog would not have to interact with strangers, especially males. The adopters knew the history because I insisted it go into the dog's record and I also refused to sign the dog out for adoption until speaking to the adopters on the phone and meeting them in person. The last I heard, that dog is now 10 and they've never had a single behavior problem. She goes to work with the husband but is only exposed to people she has come to know, never to strangers and is never around children.

We can't comment on the outcome. It's none of our business. Well, we can but we shouldn't. Not every dog can be saved. The breeder should have had someone test out the dog in different scenarios before adopting out. Saying the dog behaved with her at her home is no excuse. A rescue must be tested in the same situations they will face in an adopter's home. Dogs with bite histories, that have lived with abuse, excessive stress or haven't been properly socialized need to go to homes prepared to handle them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Dogs with bite histories, that have lived with abuse, excessive stress or haven't been properly socialized need to go to homes prepared to handle them.


You are still discounting genetics.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> You are still discounting genetics.


I didn't mean to. I was focusing on dogs that can be rehabilitated and saved. If it's a genetic cause, what can be done except to put the dog down? Not every dog can become a family pet.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I didn't mean to. I was focusing on dogs that can be rehabilitated and saved. If it's a genetic cause, what can be done except to put the dog down? Not every dog can become a family pet.


I think it is important to hear that some can live long full lives if placed in the right environment. What upsets me, is when an owner decides to put the dog down without a proper evaluation. That, so someone else won't end up with a problem. I certainly see the need, but not a judgment to be made by an untrained owner IMO. How many owners - really have the training and experience to know if it's a hopeless genetic issue or not?.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I didn't mean to. I was focusing on dogs that can be rehabilitated and saved. If it's a genetic cause, what can be done except to put the dog down? Not every dog can become a family pet.


That's my point. And that none of us know because we aren't there to see it. This thread is exactly why I hate to see people give advice for aggression on here. Unless a person sees the animal, you just never know.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I think it is important to hear that some can live long full lives if placed in the right environment. What upsets me, is when an owner decides to put the dog down without a proper evaluation. That, so someone else won't end up with a problem. I certainly see the need, but not a judgment to be made by an untrained owner IMO. How many owners - really have the training and experience to know if it's a hopeless genetic issue or not?.....


The owner made no such choice in this case. The breeder directed him to leave the dog with her vet. I don't believe anyone but the breeder can confirm the fate of the dog in question.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A hopeless genetic issue is really rare. I doubt this was the case here, although it is possible. That said, there are dogs that just aren't suited to most homes, not hopeless cases, but very difficult to home. Usually, these dogs are euthanized just for lack of proper homes. That is sad, but reality.


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## akat (Feb 11, 2016)

Hi raggdoll, I just rehomed a long-coated german shepherd a year ago. The previous owner told me he was very well adjusted and would be just fine but once we were home I noticed that anything new or loud would make him anxious. He would nip or bark at the kids when they were rough housing or jumping around and be got worse over time beginning to bark and growl at every person we met on the street. I got us enrolled in dog training classes (even though he was 6 years old and already had his Canine Good Neighbor certificate). I think the training helped a bit. But what really ended up helping the most was when I started to put myself between him and other people (when we walked) putting my body in front of him sort of guarding him. I would also tell people that asked that they could not pet him and asked that they not make eye contact with him if we stopped to talk. (He's an attractive dog so we got lots of people wanting to ask about him.) I saw him relax a bit when I would do this. And it dawned on me that I wasn't protecting other people from him but protecting him from other people and that that was what he needed. He needed to know that he was safe and that no one was going to take him away again. I did this for a whole year and he seems like a different dog now. He's much more relaxed and doesn't bark at strangers when we walk. I can even stop and having full conversations with people about him and they can make eye contact with him without him losing his cool. I watch him carefully and have learned what he looks like when he is uncomfortable and so now I feel that I can tell when he is okay with someone reaching out to pet him and when he is not. I usually just request that strangers and people he doesn't know not touch him. He seems to prefer that right now. But he's coming around and will even happily accept petting from people he has met and recognizes now. And he loves his kids. He happily runs with them and is so gentle. He still barks at them but now it is a warning of "that doesn't look safe" or "stop doing that" when the kids are fighting or something warranting it. The nipping has almost disappeared. I am sure that as his confidence builds and his trust that he will only get to be a better canine baby. It takes time so be patient. However, if your dog is baring teeth or snapping his teeth (different than a nip which is gentle and restrained) then you may need to take more precautions....putting him in a gated area when people are over etc. until he is more confident that no one is going to hurt him. Let him get use to their presence before he has to be in amongst them. (may take several visits before he relaxes enough to be more curious v.s. defensive.) I wouldn't take chances with him possibly hurting someone. He is just scared so let him have his space, let him know you are in control and you will protect him, and don't force him to be near people he isn't comfortable with until he is more settled. It takes time to trust. Hope this is helpful.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

akat said:


> Hi raggdoll, I just rehomed a long-coated german shepherd a year ago. The previous owner told me he was very well adjusted and would be just fine but once we were home I noticed that anything new or loud would make him anxious. He would nip or bark at the kids when they were rough housing or jumping around and be got worse over time beginning to bark and growl at every person we met on the street. I got us enrolled in dog training classes (even though he was 6 years old and already had his Canine Good Neighbor certificate). I think the training helped a bit. But what really ended up helping the most was when I started to put myself between him and other people (when we walked) putting my body in front of him sort of guarding him. I would also tell people that asked that they could not pet him and asked that they not make eye contact with him if we stopped to talk. (He's an attractive dog so we got lots of people wanting to ask about him.) I saw him relax a bit when I would do this. And it dawned on me that I wasn't protecting other people from him but protecting him from other people and that that was what he needed. He needed to know that he was safe and that no one was going to take him away again. I did this for a whole year and he seems like a different dog now. He's much more relaxed and doesn't bark at strangers when we walk. I can even stop and having full conversations with people about him and they can make eye contact with him without him losing his cool. I watch him carefully and have learned what he looks like when he is uncomfortable and so now I feel that I can tell when he is okay with someone reaching out to pet him and when he is not. I usually just request that strangers and people he doesn't know not touch him. He seems to prefer that right now. But he's coming around and will even happily accept petting from people he has met and recognizes now. And he loves his kids. He happily runs with them and is so gentle. He still barks at them but now it is a warning of "that doesn't look safe" or "stop doing that" when the kids are fighting or something warranting it. The nipping has almost disappeared. I am sure that as his confidence builds and his trust that he will only get to be a better canine baby. It takes time so be patient. However, if your dog is baring teeth or snapping his teeth (different than a nip which is gentle and restrained) then you may need to take more precautions....putting him in a gated area when people are over etc. until he is more confident that no one is going to hurt him. Let him get use to their presence before he has to be in amongst them. (may take several visits before he relaxes enough to be more curious v.s. defensive.) I wouldn't take chances with him possibly hurting someone. He is just scared so let him have his space, let him know you are in control and you will protect him, and don't force him to be near people he isn't comfortable with until he is more settled. It takes time to trust. Hope this is helpful.


The dog was returned to the breeder.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Saphire said:


> The owner made no such choice in this case. The breeder directed him to leave the dog with her vet. I don't believe anyone but the breeder can confirm the fate of the dog in question.


My response that you quoted was in response to Luvshepherd's post. As you can see, those posts were not referring to this specific dog.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Muskeg said:


> A hopeless genetic issue is really rare. I doubt this was the case here, although it is possible. That said, there are dogs that just aren't suited to most homes, not hopeless cases, but very difficult to home. Usually, these dogs are euthanized just for lack of proper homes. That is sad, but reality.


I believe this dog to be from a litter of 3 pups (could be wrong), 2 of which have shown aggressive behaviour. 1 is being managed well with safety precautions..belongs to a club and is surrounded by knowledgable people, 1 returned to breeder twice due to biting people, unsure of 3rd. 
Is this a fluke?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

akat said:


> Hi raggdoll, I just rehomed a long-coated german shepherd a year ago. The previous owner told me he was very well adjusted and would be just fine but once we were home I noticed that anything new or loud would make him anxious. He would nip or bark at the kids when they were rough housing or jumping around and be got worse over time beginning to bark and growl at every person we met on the street. I got us enrolled in dog training classes (even though he was 6 years old and already had his Canine Good Neighbor certificate). I think the training helped a bit. But what really ended up helping the most was when I started to put myself between him and other people (when we walked) putting my body in front of him sort of guarding him. I would also tell people that asked that they could not pet him and asked that they not make eye contact with him if we stopped to talk. (He's an attractive dog so we got lots of people wanting to ask about him.) I saw him relax a bit when I would do this. And it dawned on me that I wasn't protecting other people from him but protecting him from other people and that that was what he needed. He needed to know that he was safe and that no one was going to take him away again. I did this for a whole year and he seems like a different dog now. He's much more relaxed and doesn't bark at strangers when we walk. I can even stop and having full conversations with people about him and they can make eye contact with him without him losing his cool. I watch him carefully and have learned what he looks like when he is uncomfortable and so now I feel that I can tell when he is okay with someone reaching out to pet him and when he is not. I usually just request that strangers and people he doesn't know not touch him. He seems to prefer that right now. But he's coming around and will even happily accept petting from people he has met and recognizes now. And he loves his kids. He happily runs with them and is so gentle. He still barks at them but now it is a warning of "that doesn't look safe" or "stop doing that" when the kids are fighting or something warranting it. The nipping has almost disappeared. I am sure that as his confidence builds and his trust that he will only get to be a better canine baby. It takes time so be patient. However, if your dog is baring teeth or snapping his teeth (different than a nip which is gentle and restrained) then you may need to take more precautions....putting him in a gated area when people are over etc. until he is more confident that no one is going to hurt him. Let him get use to their presence before he has to be in amongst them. (may take several visits before he relaxes enough to be more curious v.s. defensive.) I wouldn't take chances with him possibly hurting someone. He is just scared so let him have his space, let him know you are in control and you will protect him, and don't force him to be near people he isn't comfortable with until he is more settled. It takes time to trust. Hope this is helpful.


 Thank you, that's how it's done when people have a clue!

If "you" are working with a fearful dog, then you should be aware of these:
The "Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog." "Sit on the Dog" is how you work with fearful dogs "Exposure" not "Socialization." Which "apparently" you understand. Job well done. 

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7qf-W8udaI


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Thank you, that's how it's done when people have a clue!
> 
> If "you" are working with a fearful dog, then you should be aware of these:
> The "Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog." "Sit on the Dog" is how you work with fearful dogs "Exposure" not "Socialization." Which "apparently" you understand. Job well done.
> ...


If your working with a dog with a bite history and known aggression issues, you should be made aware and be given the information to make an informed decision. 
I am an experienced dog owner and I have no interest in taking on a dog with such issues. It's wonderful that you feel you could control and train an aggressive dog sight unseen but many cannot nor wish to. I'm not saying this dog deserved to be pts, but he should have been homed with an experienced handler fully aware of history. You cannot blame the owners here, they did the responsible thing by returning the dog to the breeder, not the SPCA or rehoming to another unsuspecting family, but the breeder!!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> My response that you quoted was in response to Luvshepherd's post. As you can see, those posts were not referring to this specific dog.


Thank you. There are now three different subjects in the same thread. What to do with an aggressive dog, what to do with this dog (too late to do any good) and how to rehome a dog. I'm going to stop posting in this thread because I don't want to confuse anyone else.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Muskeg said:


> A hopeless genetic issue is really rare. I doubt this was the case here, although it is possible. That said, there are dogs that just aren't suited to most homes, not hopeless cases, but very difficult to home. Usually, these dogs are euthanized just for lack of proper homes. That is sad, but reality.


I agree. Most homes are not equipped to deal with aggression issues.

In the case of my foster, he just wasn't wired correctly. In the case of the dog this weekend, he NEVER should have been placed in a pet home.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> *If your working with a dog with a bite history and known aggression issues, you should be made aware and be given the information to make an informed decision.*
> I am an experienced dog owner and *I have no interest in taking on a dog with such issues.* It's wonderful that you feel you could control and train an aggressive dog sight unseen but many cannot nor wish to. I'm not saying this dog deserved to be pts, but he should have been homed with an experienced handler fully aware of history. You cannot blame the owners here, they did the responsible thing by returning the dog to the breeder, not the SPCA or rehoming to another unsuspecting family, but the breeder!!


100% agreed..

Especially when most people want/need a dog they can take anywhere..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Saphire said:


> If your working with a dog with a bite history and known aggression issues, you should be made aware and be given the information to make an informed decision.


No one is disputing that fact, and no one is "blaming" the original owner of the dog for any of this. 

What's in "dispute" by "some" is how the dog was handled once the dog make it clear to the second owner ... that he had a "people" issue. 



Saphire said:


> I am an experienced dog owner and I have no interest in taking on a dog with such issues. It's wonderful that you feel you could control and train an aggressive dog sight unseen but many cannot nor wish to. I'm not saying this dog deserved to be pts, but he should have been homed with an experienced handler fully aware of history. You cannot blame the owners here, they did the responsible thing by returning the dog to the breeder, not the SPCA or rehoming to another unsuspecting family, but the breeder!!


 Well I also was a an "experienced" dog owner and I "thought" my WL GSD experience was going to parallel my "people luv'ing" Boxer experience?? 

My WL GSD made it "crystal clear" to me that he had a people issue after seven months of no issues to be seen??! I took him at his word and did not "put" him in situations where he was label to cause harm to others.

I did not sign on for "aggressive" dog rehab but I had one on my hands?? Fortunately for "Rocky" I was a quick learner and chose "Exposure" to people over "Socialization" with people. He was given "time" to adjust his attitude. 

So no he did not go over to friends home and be given an opportunity to demonstrate "exactly" how uncomfortable he was with people. We went for walks and I kept people out of his face. I "showed" him how I expected him to behave around people by giving him "time" he got that and he's still here, worked out fine. 

And it doesn't take "experience" to understand that a dog has a "people issue." People that get that ...still have there dogs, those that don't PTS. Pretty much that simple.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> No one is disputing that fact, and no one is "blaming" the original owner of the dog for any of this.
> 
> What's in "dispute" by "some" is how the dog was handled once the dog make it clear to the second owner ... that he had a "people" issue.
> 
> ...


Your choice and comfort level to continue that path. The 2nd owner did not euthanize the dog, he returned it to the breeder when it was obvious he could not handle the aggressive behaviour. The point is. ....had the breeder told him of the bite history, he would not have bought this dog from her. This is not his fault. This lands solely on the breeder. It was irresponsible, beyond negligent and dangerous to sell a dog with a bite history to an unaware and inexperienced owner. In fact she went to great lengths to hide the bite history by stating he was returned as a result of the 1st owner fighting a.battle with cancer.
You don't see an issue here but instead choose to blame the 2nd owner, your blaming the wrong person.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Saphire said:


> Your choice and comfort level to continue that path. The 2nd owner did not euthanize the dog, he returned it to the breeder when it was obvious he could not handle the aggressive behaviour. The point is. ....had the breeder told him of the bite history, he would not have bought this dog from her. This is not his fault. This lands solely on the breeder. It was irresponsible, beyond negligent and dangerous to sell a dog with a bite history to an unaware and inexperienced owner. In fact she went to great lengths to hide the bite history by stating he was returned as a result of the 1st owner fighting a.battle with cancer.
> You don't see an issue here but instead choose to blame the 2nd owner, your blaming the wrong person.


 Oh I have no idea which dog was PTS?? I just view "situations" and dogs like this "handled poorly" get "PTS."

But it seems we are at an "impasse" and simply saying "agree to disagree" is not my style, I'll go with this: 










I can be the pig if you like.


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

Saphire said:


> If your working with a dog with a bite history and known aggression issues, you should be made aware and be given the information to make an informed decision.
> I am an experienced dog owner and I have no interest in taking on a dog with such issues. It's wonderful that you feel you could control and train an aggressive dog sight unseen but many cannot nor wish to. I'm not saying this dog deserved to be pts, but he should have been homed with an experienced handler fully aware of history. You cannot blame the owners here, they did the responsible thing by returning the dog to the breeder, not the SPCA or rehoming to another unsuspecting family, but the breeder!!





Saphire said:


> Your choice and comfort level to continue that path. The 2nd owner did not euthanize the dog, he returned it to the breeder when it was obvious he could not handle the aggressive behaviour. The point is. ....had the breeder told him of the bite history, he would not have bought this dog from her. This is not his fault. This lands solely on the breeder. It was irresponsible, beyond negligent and dangerous to sell a dog with a bite history to an unaware and inexperienced owner. In fact she went to great lengths to hide the bite history by stating he was returned as a result of the 1st owner fighting a.battle with cancer.
> You don't see an issue here but instead choose to blame the 2nd owner, your blaming the wrong person.


Thanks !


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## raggdoll (Dec 10, 2015)

Posted on various FB pages, including this one: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1706361702983950/1714485708838216/?notif_t=like


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