# Sick Puppy after Paramite Dip - RIP Little Pup



## Pasha!

German Shepherd Male Puppy cannot walk, bark, stand up..etc , 8 hours after being diagnosed for Sarcoptes Scabeii Mange with Paramite Dip at the vet.

10:30 - Injection for Mites, Skin Scraping to look for Mange under the microscope
He bled a little from skin scraping
11:00 AM- Paramite Dip performed by the vet after the her recommendation
1:00 - Picked up the puppy and took him home
5:00 - He walks, eats, pees, poops and runs but started to stall just a little bit.
6:30 - Dinner + Clavamox after dinner (1+1/2 tabs 62.5 mg each tab) as instructed
6:45 - Puppy goes to sleep
10:00 - Checked on him and he cannot walk, his eyes are open, he tries to walk but legs wont hold.
10:30 - At the ER of 24/7 Animal Hospital (not the first place we took him)

He's staying overnight at this other hospital to get a bath to get rid of the Paramite Dip stuff. He's also going to be on the infusion pump with IV Catheterization and IV fluids. The vet at the ER called the Animal Poison Control and according to him they said the main cause is the Paramite Dip. 

Any thoughts?

I'm ready to raise **** for the vet that did the Paramite Dip wash.

Thank You


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## msvette2u

Don't use the dip.
Use ivermectin and THAT IS IT. No dips. They are extremely toxic.
But also some dogs can be sensitive to ivermectin. You'll need to ask about that.

Drugs reported to cause problems in dogs that carry the MDR1 mutation. Information from the VCPL at Washington State University. You can have him tested.

Dosage for ivermectin - but ask your vet first if they'll give the dosages to you.


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## LisaT

Pasha! said:


> He's staying overnight at this other hospital to get a bath to get rid of the Paramite Dip stuff. He's also going to be on the infusion pump with IV Catheterization and IV fluids. The vet at the ER called the Animal Poison Control and according to him they said the main cause is the Paramite Dip.
> 
> Any thoughts?....


I'm so sorry to hear about your pup 

I know of a dog that had a severe neurological response to a medication, and the IV fluids were very important. 

It sounds like you have him at the right place, and hopefully they have all the correct protocols in place. 

I would want to know the dose that they used. If someone made a mistake and used too much, you may never know. If your pup is sensitive to the "proper" dose, that is important to know too - I do think, as mentioned above, dips aren't used so much anymore, too toxic. There is some info on proper treatment at the bottom of this link: Sarcoptic Mange and here Canine Scabies: Sarcoptic Mange in Dogs

Hoping for the best for your pup. When he gets home, I would try to eliminate anything toxic, which would include feeding a bland homeprepared diet for a bit, and find a good whole food product to help provide some extra nutrients to support the nervous system (vit B's, C, etc.), something like Missing Link. Carmen might have some other recommendations.


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## NancyJ

I hope the little guy does ok.


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## carmspack

oh my god -- I am sending you all my hope that the pup will be okay. That is like burning your house down to get rid of a mouse in it. 
Get the dog back on its feet .
Then I would do a diet that is pure meaning no junk or chemicals, preservatives that will tax the kidneys or liver.

Go to the health food store and get chlorophyll rich wheat grass juice to start .

please let us know -- 

Carmen


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## carmspack

when your dog is back on its feet , consult a local natural practices vet , holistic . They will probably recommend milk thistle as a detox liver cleanse.


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## jetscarbie

I would...along with your vet...get in touch of the makers of the dip. Submit the health report and other reports from the vet saying the dip caused this.
I would make them, at the very least, pay the vet visits and followup ER.

They may buck at it...but at least try. I know I did the same thing YEARS ago when my cat got very sick from Hartz flea drops. At first Hartz denied all. I contacted the AG, BBB, and about every other place I could think of. After a few months, they finally reimbursed me my vet cost.

I hope your vet quits using this product now that they know what can happen to some dogs.

Praying for your pup.


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## JakodaCD OA

Poor Puppy, how old is he?


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## BlackPuppy

I had a vet suggest the dip for my first dog, too. It was my first dog. I had him for only a week, and the vet said, "I would do it if it were my dog." 

Well, I looked it up online because my dog was lethargic after the dip. After reading about it, I will never do it again! And, I always check on things my vet suggests. Luckily, I have a holistic vet now and she would never ever suggest something so toxic. 

BTW, my dog was fine afterwards. Hmm. I never thought about this before, he died of cancer (lymphoma) 4 years later. I'm always wondering if there was anything I did that contributed to his cancer.


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## Pasha!

The hospital just called and told us that the puppy passed away.

I am very furious and sad.

I will keep this forum updated on why it happened once I get there and come back.


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## jetscarbie

OMG! I am so sorry


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## cta

i'm so sad to hear this news...i'm sorry for your loss


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## Mary&Stella

I am so sorry, this just breaks my heart.


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## wyominggrandma

I have a friend that lost a Champion Sheltie to this dip. 
I would be taking all the bills to the vet that did the dip and hand them over. They should never have dipped the pup in this nasty stuff without telling you of the possibilities of a fatal reaction.


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## Freestep

Oh I am so sorry.

Back in the day, before Ivermectin, Advantage, and Frontline, we used to use Paramite dip for mange and severe flea infestations. I always hated the stuff. Had to wear gloves and a mask when using it, and I thought, this can't be good for the poor dog. As soon as I quit working at that hospital I swore I'd never touch the stuff again.

However, this is the first time I've heard of it killing a dog. I would call the company that makes Paramite and ask to be reimbursed for the vet bills. Don't be too hard on the vet--although I can't imagine why they would use Paramite in this day and age, they've probably never had a problem with it before, and used as directed by manufacturer it should NOT cause death!!


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## NancyJ

How old was this puppy - is there any chance she was in violation of the manufacturers directions. If he was I would be submitting a formal complaint the relevant veterinary board so that he does not kill another puppy.


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## RebelGSD

This s terrible! I would be very upset! Has the vet warned you of the possibility of fatal reaction? I feel the vet and the company should reimburse you for the expenses.

I would also insist that the case is reported to the FDA. The collect product safety information and can pull unsafe products from the market.

I am very sorry for your loss. It is tragic to lose a baby to a condition that is easily treatable.


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## RebelGSD

jocoyn said:


> How old was this puppy - is there any chance she was in violation of the manufacturers directions. If he was I would be submitting a formal complaint the relevant veterinary board so that he does not kill another puppy.


If they did, it will be impossible to find out.


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## NancyJ

What would be impossible to find out?


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## 1sttimeforgsd

God Bless, may the little one be running free at the bridge. :rip:


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## Miss Molly May

My heart goes out to you and your family! I am so sorry for your loss!


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## Josie/Zeus

I am so sorry. Thoughts and prayers to you and your family. Oh my God, how horrible.


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## RebelGSD

jocoyn said:


> What would be impossible to find out?


I cannot imagine anyone admitting threy killed a puppy by applying the dip in a manner which is in violation with manufacturer's directions. Unless the application as been videotaped and they make the tape available.


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## NancyJ

Ok, I meant maybe the puppy was to young to be given that treatment. Organophosphates are serious stuff. I remember using it years ago but only on adult dogs. I figured that may be on the labeling. 

The only label I could find was for livestock use and it says not less than 3 months old
Paramite L.A. Wellmark International (Farm Supplies - Swine Health - Swine Fly Lice Control)

My understanding is there is no longer a paramite product labeled for canine use.


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## RebelGSD

I found 12 weeks as the age limit. If the pup was younger than the manufacturer recommended age limit, I would definitely go after the vet. That possibility did not even occur to me. I was thinking of improper application, dosage or oral ingestion, which is hard to prove.


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## NancyJ

But was that for dogs or livestock. I have been several places that say it was discontinued for use in dogs by the manufacturer---so I would question anyone who chose to use the product on dogs of any age, particularly puppies. Yes it works and we used it years back and our dog did not die but those were the days when the choices were flea powder, dips, and flea collars. Now many of the safer medicines can control scabies as well.

You can see the manufacturer's page does not list paramite on the dog tab - please not the link reads flea and tick but it is the only link for "dog products" 
Vet-Kem® Flea & Tick Products for Dogs

But does for cattle and swine
Vet-Kem® Paramite® L.A.

Sorry to digress on the unemotional - how can this be fixed page - but nothing can be done to bring this poor puppy back. Maybe the next one can be saved.


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## CeCe

Jocoyn is correct-google parmite and you will find that it has been pulled from all pet supply websites. Perhaps the op doesn't live in North America. 
Pasha-I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## RebelGSD

I googled it and found one link for dogs, i wonder whether it is outdated. This is really very disturbing if they used the dip after being withdrawn by the manufacturer for use on dogs.


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## Freestep

If Paramite has been withdrawn by the manufacturer, then you probably have a case for a lawsuit against the vet. This didn't occur to me until now, but I haven't actually seen Paramite in at least 15 years.


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## CHawkins

I am so sorry. This just made me sick.


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## LisaT

I am just sick to hear of this devastating loss. I am so very very sorry


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## JakodaCD OA

how sad,,I have to say,,heads would be rolling


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## Good_Karma

Oh Pasha, I am so sorry for your loss.  What a terrible tragedy!


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## Verivus

I'm so sorry for your loss.  You should contact your vet and the manufacturer and fight for reimbursement for all medical costs; one of them is most definitely responsible for what's happened.


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## Pasha!

The puppy was also given Ivermectin. The doctor does not remember the dosage but will check the dosage in the morning when I call them. She has also stated that 1/2 dose of the Paramite Dip solution was mixed into the water.
I found more cases of death from Ivermectin than Paramite Dip.

Dr. is not the owner of the hospital.

The owner of the hospital gets back on the 19th. She called me first to say she's very sorry..then I got a call from other Dr. saying she's sorry..

Here is the full report by the other vet who performed the bath and gave him the fluids

All we did was to take him to these people to fix his scratching issue because of the Mange...Our only mistake was to take him to Montville Animal Hospital for his first set of puppy vaccinations...then they became our "regular vet"... I will regret this for the rest of my life.
This weekend has turned out to be a nightmare for us. Please learn from this. Even though we had Pasha for only 10 days, I brought him home for my parents as a New Year's present, we have bonded so well and we are now all emotionally distressed, a big part of us has been taken away from us. Nothing we will do will bring him back. We will of course talk to the vet who is responsible for this in more depth. 

I wish I was a veterinarian instead of an engineer.. I do not trust any of these people anymore. 

RIP Pasha 1/8/2012 .. I will never forget you little guy.


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## cta

i'm so sorry this happened to your innocent pup and your family. may your little one rest in peace.


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## msvette2u

This is awful. 8 weeks is too young for that dip. 
I'd say you have a case - and I'm not "sue happy". 
RIP poor puppy.
OP - you did the best you could.
I used that dip before I knew any better. Never again. The dog we used it on did not die but got drowsy and was sick. 
I use ivermectin now, but only w/vet supervision - and also not on anything with sensitivity to it. There's a test you can do for the genetic pattern that can cause toxicity in some dogs.


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## BR870

I lost a cat and a rabbit to a dip when I was a child. It was to treat fleas, and I believe my mother did not dilute it enough...

...Here is the weird part. The cat, named Sundae, haunted our house for awhile afterwards. I kid you not. You could hear this weird unearthly yowling and wailing that seemed to come from the hallway and bathroom where she passed away. It would literally make the hair stand up on your neck. It went on for weeks, and terrified my mother and I. Finally it stopped when my mother, on advice from a spiritual hippie type friend, apologized and asked it to move on since it was scaring us. After that it stopped and never happened again...

Dunno what to say, thats what happened...

Very sorry OP


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Pasha - I am so sorry. It is so hard to learn to say, well let's wait and I will bring him back for treatment in a couple of days, so that you can read up and see what the deal is. 

I am going to say something that is disturbing to a lot of people, but if you are considering reporting your vet that did this, you may need a necropsy. I am not sure if you will, but whatever state office that these reports go to may be able to tell you. 

They sell this stuff online to people, yikes.

Some info on sarcoptic mange for people: Canine Scabies: Sarcoptic Mange in Dogs
Sarcoptic Mange

This is just...so sad. I am very sorry.


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## KZoppa

I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how hard this whole thing has to be for you and your family. Poor pup. Way too young.


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## RebelGSD

The ivermectin can also cause problems. 
I just rescued a JRT puppy that had pretty bad demodex and we started her on the ivermectin treatment, starting at a very low dose and increasing the dose every week. After three weeks of treatment she developed Ataxia and turned lethargic. I immediately discontinued the ivermectin and she recovered fully. These neurological side effects are very scary. I think the dip and the ivermectin together could have been too much.
If you are considering legal action, you may want to do a necropsy ( I know it sounds terrible).

I am very sorry for the loss of the puppy, run free Pasha...


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## Pasha!

I dont have any means to sue. It won't bring him back and money will not ease the pain.
Instead I will give my next dog the best life that a dog deserves, with Pasha in my mind.

Looking to get an another puppy soon. I think that would help us emotionally.


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## msvette2u

I'm sure this is a very difficult time. 
At the very least you need to contact the 1st vet and ask for your money back. Bring the notes from the 2nd vet. 
Do it all in writing and keep records of any phone calls, etc.

At the very least there is small claims and no judge would deny the 1st vet killed your puppy.


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## RebelGSD

You may consider reporting the case to the veterinary board, so that they don't do it to another puppy. From what I found on line, the manufacturer recommends it for dog's above 12 weeks old. Your pup was 8 weeks. 

Where did the puppy come from that he had mange so young?


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## RebelGSD

I think the first vet should cover the cost of the emergency care, since they caused the problem. You can ask or do small claims court. They should take responsibility for it.


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## NancyJ

Pasha! said:


> I dont have any means to sue. It won't bring him back and money will not ease the pain.
> Instead I will give my next dog the best life that a dog deserves, with Pasha in my mind.
> 
> Looking to get an another puppy soon. I think that would help us emotionally.


I think that is a realistic approach, I would talk with them, though, to try to prevent this tragedy again. They do need to understand your pain. Also some GSDs have a gene mutation that makes them not tolerate Ivermectin (more common in collies but also present in GSDs...to consider when it comes to heartworm prevention) and I think the ivermectin dose for scabies is a lot higher than for heartworm prevention. 

It sure sounds like you did eveything you could for little Pasha so you can sleep well at night knowing that this was beyond you.


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## Judykaye

I am so sorry over this loss of your sweet boy...but also am glad to see that you are thinking of another GSD...if you are going to consider using the same breeder then I would make sure to do the testing for the mutant gene that causes the drug sensitivity issues...Ivermectin can be deadly...and I think the test costs around $80.00...I have a collie and they are prior to the drug sensitivity issues...the way around that is to use Interceptor if you don't want to have the testing done...if you do a search on drug sensitivity on the Internet you can pull up all the drugs that can cause problems...Again, I am so sorry for your loss...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Judy-remember Simone?  Also a GSD with mange, who was so sick, and was given Ivermectin...

Yes, I think suing doesn't really work with dogs/vets because they are property but reimbursement and reporting them so that they will use their heads the next time this happens...just heartbreaking - we all wish you the very best with your next puppy.


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## msvette2u

I lightened and 'framed' your pics...hope you do not mind.



















He was a beauty...rip Pasha


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## Pasha!

Source: Parasite Drug (Ivermectin) Poisoning in Dogs | petMD

This toxic reaction occurs especially in dogs that are genetically hypersensitive to ivermectin, an anti-parasite medication most commonly used for heartworm prevention, or to treat ear and hair mites, which can lead to mange. Ivermectin prevents or kills parasites by causing neurological damage to the parasite, resulting in paralysis and death for the parasite. But dogs genetically sensitive to the medication have an anomaly that allows the ivermectin to pass the dog's blood-brain barrier and into its central nervous system, which can be lethal for the animal.

While the sensitivity to this type of medication is not always guaranteed, the following breeds are most likely to be affected:



Old English Sheepdog
English Sheepdog
Shetland Sheepdog (Sheltie)
Australian Shepherd
*German Shepherd*
Long-haired Whippet
Silken Windhound
Skye Terrier
Collie
 
It is also seen in mixed-breed dogs, older....Read more


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## msvette2u

The GSD isn't at the top of that list, they actually give percentages of dogs sensitive.
I'm not saying he was or wasn't - but amitraz/paramite - is 100% toxic. 

https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy....,cf.osb&fp=a832e4bee034e5be&biw=1006&bih=504

There's absolutely no question that either drug could have caused it but the amitraz will without a doubt cause the symptoms you describe. They warn specifically against those symptoms.

The only way you could tell if the ivermectin was to blame would be to do the genetic testing and I don't know if they can post-mortem.

However, amitraz is contra-indicated in puppies under 12 weeks - your puppy was 8 weeks. If the vet clinic allowed him to get some in his mouth, that would explain the exaggerated symptoms and subsequent death of your puppy.


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## RebelGSD

I would recommend a different breeder for your next puppy. It is bad if a breeder sends a puppy to a new home with sarcoptic mange.


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## NancyJ

I know it is highly contagious. How long can the mites live before introducing a new puppy?


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## msvette2u

Not long at all in the environment. However if another pet in the home got them, it could be bad. Or if a human got them but I don't think a human can be a vector.

Not to be...rude or anything (especially at this time)...but I see no evidence of mange on that puppy at all...other than an itch which could have been a flea or dry skin even.


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## msvette2u

Sarcoptic Mange



> When an animal with sarcoptic mange scratches itself, it breaks open the tunnels that the mites have burrowed into and the mites are killed (though the itch persists due to toxins in the skin). The result is that the mites can be very difficult to confirm by skin scraping tests. *(Probably mites are confirmed in 50% or fewer of sarcoptic mange cases).*





> DIPPING - Anti-bacterial or anti-itch shampoos precede one of several anti-mite dips. Mitaban dip (Amitraz), or Lime-Sulfur dips given weekly are usually effective. Disease typically resolves within one month. *Dipping is labor intensive and rarely done any more as the other products are easier and more rapidly effective. We mention dipping since it has been a standard mange treatment for decades prior to the introduction of ivermectin.*


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## RebelGSD

I have to agree, the puppy does not look like a puppy that has mange. There was another thread recently when mange was diagnosed by visual inspection.


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## LisaT

Mdr1 reaction in a GSD: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...vomec-reaction-advice-please.html#post1296139

Your pup was 8 weeks old, given a dip labeled for 12 wks or older, and given ivermection. For *any* young dog, this could be too much, even without the complication of the mdr1 issue. 

:hugs:

I am very happy to hear that you will be getting another pup :hugs:


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## msvette2u

When we had one with sarcoptic mange, I dx'ed here after visual inspection. I'd never seen it but had read the above site, and knew immediately it was sarcoptic mange. He even had the ear pinna itch thingy, that made him scratch with his back leg. 
I used lyme dip and ivermectin but he was not a collie or any of the breeds with sensitivities. 
Ivermectin used for sarcopses is only given like every week-10 days. But I did lyme dip him weekly. It's safer by far for puppies


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## LisaT

There's a lot of wild speculation going on in this thread. 

There have been cases of sarcoptic mange diagnosed via scrape because it cannot always be found visually. What other dogs have been able to tolerate is not relevant here. Blaming this on an mdr1 involvement may or may not be accurate, but the dip alone, just the dip could have cause this. 

RIP little pup.


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## RebelGSD

With this baby, I wonder how they diagnosed and why they treated so aggressively.


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## msvette2u

Me too Rebel...me too


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## katieliz

rest in peace dear little sheppie puppy pasha...

note to the op, i hope you are able to recover from this terrible tragedy and find a new pup to honor the memory of this one, and with time feel the joy they bring your heart once again. take care, many blessings.


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## arycrest

msvette2u said:


>


 :rip: I'm so sorry about your beautiful Pasha!


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## Jelpy

I'm so sorry for the loss of your pup. I would be at the vet's office first thing Monday morning raising ****. Where are you anyway? I'm sure some people here could recommend a good breeder in your state. 

Jelpy


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## qbchottu

Even if you do not have the means to sue, you can talk to some lawyers in your area about your situation. It costs nothing to have a meeting, present your case to the lawyer and see if you have a case. Nothing may come of it, but at least you know you tried. 

I would also have a very detailed meeting with the vet after talking to a lawyer. He or she should know what the mistakes were so this won't happen again... I had a vet that did not diagnose two very large solid masses in my golden's neck. Had we caught it early enough, we could have explored some treatment options, but my girl was already terminal by the time I took her to a different vet to get a second opinion. I couldn't sue my old vet, but I met with him and told him how much his tragic misstep had devastated my family. I bet he'll think twice the next time he gets a golden with large solid masses. 

I am very sorry for your loss.


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## RocketDog

I just read this. 

My sincere condolences.


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## Pasha!

LisaT said:


> Mdr1 reaction in a GSD: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...vomec-reaction-advice-please.html#post1296139
> 
> Your pup was 8 weeks old, given a dip labeled for 12 wks or older, and given ivermection. For *any* young dog, this could be too much, even without the complication of the mdr1 issue.
> 
> :hugs:
> 
> I am very happy to hear that you will be getting another pup :hugs:





msvette2u said:


> When we had one with sarcoptic mange, I dx'ed here after visual inspection. I'd never seen it but had read the above site, and knew immediately it was sarcoptic mange. He even had the ear pinna itch thingy, that made him scratch with his back leg.
> I used lyme dip and ivermectin but he was not a collie or any of the breeds with sensitivities.
> Ivermectin used for sarcopses is only given like every week-10 days. But I did lyme dip him weekly. It's safer by far for puppies





RebelGSD said:


> I have to agree, the puppy does not look like a puppy that has mange. There was another thread recently when mange was diagnosed by visual inspection.





msvette2u said:


> Not long at all in the environment. However if another pet in the home got them, it could be bad. Or if a human got them but I don't think a human can be a vector.
> 
> Not to be...rude or anything (especially at this time)...but I see no evidence of mange on that puppy at all...other than an itch which could have been a flea or dry skin even.



The pictures are from when we first got him. He was scratching even then. He lost hair around his left eye in a week from scratching and the vet that did the dip + ivermectin did a skin scraping and looked under the microscope. His skin was also dry and he had lots of dandruff / dead skin


Most sources say that most puppies do have mange if the mom has it, but it can be get rid of.


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## NancyJ

A well cared for dog should not have it. I am 56 years old, have continuously had one or more dogs since I was 10 and never had a dog with mange.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Pasha, I am so very sorry for your loss. I understand your reluctance to get a lawyer and sue. That is probably not necessary. The vet knows he/she did wrong and knows you COULD sue. At the very least, you are in a position to negatively impact the practice. Being known as the practice that killed someone's puppy is not good for business. 

Brief story - my daughter was in the old school braces. Went through the palate expander, lip bumper, 2 stages of braces. I think her case was too complex for the orthodontist There was damage to her four front teeth and he removed the braces. My daughter looked in the mirror and cried. I found another orthodontist who was willing to put her into a different type of braces. I wrote a letter to the previous orthodontist. I told him that my daughter looked like the "before" picture and he could not tell me that he would post her picture on his board of success stories. "After 4 years of braces, you too could look like this."

I told him I thought he should refund at least part of our money. Obviously, he consulted with his attorney. He refunded the full amount. Write a letter and request that your expenses be paid - vet bills and the cost of the puppy.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Pasha! said:


> I dont have any means to sue. It won't bring him back and money will not ease the pain.


Keep in mind that many lawyers that handle these types of claims do so on a contingent fee basis. That means you pay NOTHING up front, and the lawyer only gets paid if you win/settle your case. Otherwise, you owe nothing.

It's not necessarily the money, but I'd be wanting to make sure this doesn't happen to another puppy.


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## RebelGSD

It is not normal for the mom or the pups to have sarcastic mange. The mom should have been treated and not bred withbany type of mange. Puppies with weak immune system sometimes develop demodectic mange. With good care they cam recover even without treatment. I raised several rescue litters from malnourished moms and none of the puppies had mange. Not normal.

I think the letter requesting the vet to cover expenses and the cost of the puppy is excellent. They are likely to do it as this is a very bad thing for their practice.

Can you PM me the breeder information?


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## Stevenzachsmom

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Keep in mind that many lawyers that handle these types of claims do so on a contingent fee basis. That means you pay NOTHING up front, and the lawyer only gets paid if you win/settle your case. Otherwise, you owe nothing.
> 
> It's not necessarily the money, *but I'd be wanting to make sure this doesn't happen to another puppy.*


Absolutely!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I am so sorry for your lossof Pasha.


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## Stella's Mom

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## Stella's Mom

RebelGSD said:


> It is not normal for the mom or the pups to have sarcastic mange. The mom should have been treated and not bred withbany type of mange. Puppies with weak immune system sometimes develop demodectic mange. With good care they cam recover even without treatment. I raised several rescue litters from malnourished moms and none of the puppies had mange. Not normal.
> 
> I think the letter requesting the vet to cover expenses and the cost of the puppy is excellent. They are likely to do it as this is a very bad thing for their practice.
> 
> Can you PM me the breeder information?


My girl developed a spot of demodectic mange when she was about 6 months. Not knowing better I allowed her to have one dip. After the first dip and antibiotics she still had the mange lesion. 

She was then infected by a tick bite so our vet and I decided we would not treat the mange while she was being treated for the tick infection. I cleaned her mange lesion daily with apple cider vinegar and then started her on goodwinol ointment. It has since healed and gone away. Reading this thread I will never give my dog a dip again if she has another outbreak.


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## msvette2u

We dipped a Chihuahua type dog when we had first started doing rescue.
Keep in mind you have to glove and gown yourself and do the dip outside where there's ventilation. There's huge warning labels all over the stuff. It's extremely toxic and that's how it kills the mites.
But you're right, StellasMom, goodwinol is the best for localized patches. 

I'm curious if there is a pic of the puppy with the hair loss, etc.?
And if the vet actually found some mites, and if so which they were? Do you have chart notes from the 1st vet who did the dip?

Hair loss around the eye(s) can even be a sign of puppy strangles (juvenile pyoderma).


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## Stella's Mom

msvette2u said:


> We dipped a Chihuahua type dog when we had first started doing rescue.
> Keep in mind you have to glove and gown yourself and do the dip outside where there's ventilation. There's huge warning labels all over the stuff. It's extremely toxic and that's how it kills the mites.
> But you're right, StellasMom, goodwinol is the best for localized patches.
> 
> I'm curious if there is a pic of the puppy with the hair loss, etc.?
> And if the vet actually found some mites, and if so which they were? Do you have chart notes from the 1st vet who did the dip?
> 
> Hair loss around the eye(s) can even be a sign of puppy strangles (juvenile pyoderma).


The vet did scrape twice and he said their were mites after each scraping. The lesion was above her left eye. I need to look through some old pics and see if I can find one where you can see the hair loss.


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## Stella's Mom

msvette2u said:


> We dipped a Chihuahua type dog when we had first started doing rescue.
> Keep in mind you have to glove and gown yourself and do the dip outside where there's ventilation. There's huge warning labels all over the stuff. It's extremely toxic and that's how it kills the mites.
> But you're right, StellasMom, goodwinol is the best for localized patches.
> 
> I'm curious if there is a pic of the puppy with the hair loss, etc.?
> And if the vet actually found some mites, and if so which they were? Do you have chart notes from the 1st vet who did the dip?
> 
> Hair loss around the eye(s) can even be a sign of puppy strangles (juvenile pyoderma).


Here is a pic of the lesion


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Everyone - I am going to move this thread to In Loving Memory so that we keep focused on the loss of Pasha. Feel free to start (very informative) threads and posts in the health section - I think education is very important.


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## asja

I am so sorry about the loss of Pasha. How sad for you and the poor pup. 

Please file a complaint with your state vet board. I did that once, and I was worth it. There was no excuse for that vet.


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## JakodaCD OA

OMG< something is "screaming" at me,,,PASHA, you mentioned , are you talking CT vet? 

I am in CT, there was an incident with a clients dog at a vet's office and I believe it was a couple years ago, a "male" vet,,and it was NOT good.. And if this is CT we are talking about, I'm wondering who the breeder was,,you can pm me if you like.


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## GSDBESTK9

How very sad, I'm so sorry for your loss. What a GORGEOUS puppy he was.  R.I.P. little one.


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## Pasha!

JakodaCD OA said:


> OMG< something is "screaming" at me,,,PASHA, you mentioned , are you talking CT vet?
> 
> I am in CT, there was an incident with a clients dog at a vet's office and I believe it was a couple years ago, a "male" vet,,and it was NOT good.. And if this is CT we are talking about, I'm wondering who the breeder was,,you can pm me if you like.


No, we took Pasha to Animal Hospital in , NJ

I wish we never have...


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## JakodaCD OA

ahhh ok,,again I am so sorry( poor little guy


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## LisaT

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Everyone - I am going to move this thread to In Loving Memory so that we keep focused on the loss of Pasha. ...


Stopping by to let you know I'm thinking of you and your family :hugs:


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## LoveEcho

JakodaCD OA said:


> OMG< something is "screaming" at me,,,PASHA, you mentioned , are you talking CT vet?
> 
> I am in CT, there was an incident with a clients dog at a vet's office and I believe it was a couple years ago, a "male" vet,,and it was NOT good.. And if this is CT we are talking about, I'm wondering who the breeder was,,you can pm me if you like.


My parents take their dog to similar name Hospital in CT, I almost had a heart attack.

I am so, so, so very sorry for your loss...make those ******* pay for what they did. *hugs*


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## Geeheim

So sorry for the loss of your little Pasha! I would be beyond livid and would not rest until I got justice for him.

RIP sweet boy.


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## Catu

I am very sorry for your lost 

You are right, most dogs carry sarcoptic mites and it is transmitted from their mothers, though it doesn't become mange unless the dog is immune-depressed. Young puppies are, of course, more at risk. I recently fostered a pup with a severe case of sarcoptic mange and felt safe doing so because my own dogs, young, healthy, well fed and exercised adults, should not be infested and probably have been exposed to the mites long before. Me, who I am not that young, healthy, well fed (junk food) nor exercised didn't get it either.

I have never heard of this product and I did a small research, because I'm supposed to known all the antiparasitic medicines for my Wednesday test and everywhere I found it it says it's discontinued. You start to guess why...

A big hug for you, you are being very brave all this and keeping your heart open for a new pup.


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## RebelGSD

Catu said:


> I am very sorry for your lost
> 
> You are right, most dogs carry sarcoptic mites and it is transmitted from their mothers, though it doesn't become mange unless the dog is immune-depressed. Young puppies are, of course, more at risk. I recently fostered a pup with a severe case of sarcoptic mange and felt safe doing so because my own dogs, young, healthy, well fed and exercised adults, should not be infested and probably have been exposed to the mites long before. Me, who I am not that young, healthy, well fed (junk food) nor exercised didn't get it either.
> 
> I have never heard of this product and I did a small research, because I'm supposed to known all the antiparasitic medicines for my Wednesday test and everywhere I found it it says it's discontinued. You start to guess why...
> 
> A big hug for you, you are being very brave all this and keeping your heart
> open for a new pup.


You mean demodectic mange, it is the one associated with depressed immune system.


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## chelle

I am so very sorry for your loss. What a sweet pup. You will see your baby again someday. Again, so very, very sorry. We trust those in a position to know what to do and it hurts twice as bad to be let down. Prayers for you.


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## Catu

RebelGSD said:


> You mean demodectic mange, it is the one associated with depressed immune system.


you are right!


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## Pasha!

Veterinary Clinical Pharmacology Lab at Washington State University states that *Ivermectin* will cause neurological toxicity in dogs that are homozygous for the MDR1 mutation. We do not have proof that Pasha experienced the MDR1 mutation but he was not tested for this either. Before even thinking about attempting to do this injection on Pasha, the doctor should have taken the precautions and simply test him for this mutation. According to them, 10% of the tested German Shepherds showed signs of MDR1 mutation.
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/breeds.aspx
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/drugs.aspx
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/


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## msvette2u

Yes it can be toxic to dogs w/the MDR1 mutation - but we've been saying that while it "could" cause problems (might not, too, in 90% of cases in fact) the odds are it was the dip.

The dip is extremely -* EXTREMELY* toxic to even adults with no other health issues. 
How do you think an 8 week old puppy would handle it?
Especially since the dip is not recommended for puppies under 12 weeks?

The vet deliberately used a dip on an 8 week old that was not that badly infected, there were safer things to do and even a puppy of 8 weeks can tolerate ivermectin - provided they don't have the mutation.

Not to mention its been discontinued for use in dogs - http://www.drugs.com/vet/vet-kem-paramite-l-a-insecticidal-spray-backrubber.html

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Vet-Kem-Paramite-LA-32oz/dp/B000EMWMJQ[/ame] 

Due to the toxicity. Read the symptoms of toxicity on it.




> *This product is contraindicated in dogs less than 12 weeks old and pregnant dogs.*
> 
> Read more: Paramite Dip Treatment for Sarcoptic Mange in Dogs - VetInfo


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## msvette2u

I just wanted to pop back in here and say that nobody on here is blaming you for what happened, I'm sure you are blaming yourself, but please do not!

I recently (against my better judgement) put a dog on a cardiac med that was prescribed by a vet we don't usually visit. 
It could have killed her and may in fact have made her heart worse than before she was on it. The vet did not tell me much about it and I should have just asked more, but we often just blindly rely on our vet's advice, after all, they are the ones that went to school.
Most the time it turns out well - after all, they _are_ the ones who went to school, not us 
But sometimes, mistakes happen - just like with human doctors, mistakes happen.

The only thing, I'd reiterate, like you haven't heard it enough, either present in writing what happened with your puppy and/or report it to your state veterinary board.


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## JakodaCD OA

My aussie is an MDR1 dog with a mutant/mutant reading 

It's not your fault, most people have never even heard of the mdr1 gene, let alone that gsd's can have it,, 1/3 of all aussies test out for it in one form or another.

My vets didn't know about the percentage in aussies when I first got her, they usually associate it with collies,shelties..


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## mahhi22

This has to be one of the most unfortunate & sad posts I’ve read on this forum. 
Pasha!, I’m so sorry for the loss of your sweet puppy.


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## msvette2u

JakodaCD OA said:


> My aussie is an MDR1 dog with a mutant/mutant reading
> 
> It's not your fault, most people have never even heard of the mdr1 gene, let alone that gsd's can have it,, 1/3 of all aussies test out for it in one form or another.
> 
> My vets didn't know about the percentage in aussies when I first got her, they usually associate it with collies,shelties..


We had a GSD x Dutch with demodex and our vet mentioned the issue w/ivermectin. He was prescribed goodwinol instead.


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## Betty

I am so very very sorry.


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## dakotachloe

This post broke my heart. I'm so very sorry for what you're going through.


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## Pasha!

It took Dr. Shelli Skeels of Montville Animal Hospital 23 days after she came back from her "vacation" to send us a lousy letter with a brochure saying how to deal with a dead dog's grief.

This is after I sent a letter myself and called 3 times with no returned calls.


Completely humiliating.. 

I will do whatever is necessary to bad mouth her business. She is the one who needs a brochure on how to deal with patient's grief.

Any feedback is appreciated.


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## asja

I feel so bad for you. I am so sorry about your puppy.

You can file a complaint with the New Jersey state vet board. I think in an earlier post you said New Jersey. If not, Google it. But here's the address for NJ:
New Jersey Division of Consumer Affairs - State Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners

Once I filed a complaint with the state vet board. I truly hope I pissed off that vet as much as they did me with their crappy care. Oh yeah, I will badmouth Sherry Spain in Nashville, TN, even though that was ten years ago. 

You could also sue them for the price of the puppy. I know that doesn't replace your puppy, but it's something. Maybe also sue them for emotional distress? 

Again, I am so sorry!


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## Freestep

Have you talked to a lawyer? Often times the consult is free.


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## Stosh

I agree- report her to the state board and keep bad mouthing her forever. I would ask her for the cost of your pup and every cent your paid her office. I'm so sorry that Pasha had to be with his life. I'd put his picture in the paper with a few lines about what happened- not accusing the vet of incompetence, just stating the facts.


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