# growling 18-month old



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Haven't been on the forum for a while but here again, asking for info/advice.

Our two male, un neutered german shepherd males are now 18 months old. We have worked hard to ensure they get appropriate training, socializing, etc. It has been an eventful 18 months but overall, we are pleased with their development/progression. 

We have a new-onset challenge that we can't quite decipher. One of our boys (Hawkeye) has started growling at night….sometimes he growls at his brother, sometimes he growls at us, and sometimes he just lays there and growls when nothing is happening. His growls don't sound scary and they don't escalate to anything. The next morning he acts happy and no more growling…it's like he shuts down at night when he gets tired and is just grumpy. He has never snapped or nipped but we don't want to ignore this behavior. We don't know why he does it and we aren't sure how to stop the behavior We just say, "NO" when he does it and he stops for a few seconds….then growls again. His brother (Trapper) usually just ignores him when he does it. Trapper and Hawkeye play well together and are good friends. Hawkeye has always been the alpha of the two and tries to manage Trapper's movements. We intervene and don't allow Hawk to control Trapper. I wonder if his growling is a different way for him to try to control Trapper. Trapper no longer seems to notice or care. Any thoughts/advice?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My female is just around that age. She growls when she's tired.... it's not really a growl - it's more like half growl and half groan. She's always been vocal about everything in general she yowls when she's happy and makes a different set of noises when you scratch the spot on her chest or neck that she can't reach. 

If she's asleep and is hogging the bed and I tell her to scoot down, she'll growl/groan but it means nothing. She's just a talker..... If I laugh and tell her "oh be quiet you ol crab" she gets all happy and wants to play or be petted like "I'm sorry! I don't know why I made that noise!

I would look at it different if it was actually directed at a person or other dog though......


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

That's our impression but we can't be certain.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The only reason I am ok with it is that she makes these same growl/groan noises when she's settling down anywhere for a nap even alone in another room. It's just some kind of pre sleep ritual. 

For a while, I wondered if it might somehow be related to the fact that she is slightly oversize as I have heard and watched larger breed dogs do this before when the were circling getting ready to lay down. Not a pain thing - just like a "man I need to take a load off" thing or I want to play but I'm so tired and don't want to sleep thing. Hard to describe.

Anyway, I quit worrying about it - just another little mystery until I know different....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

video tape him and post it.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Good idea. May be a few days before I get that opportunity but will post as soon as I capture it. Thanks.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Could be pain and not feeling good? Just a thought.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

but in the mornings he's chipper and sweet. Seems like he's just a grumpy pants when he gets tired….and he gets tired as soon as the sun goes down. He plays hard during the day and I think he just runs out of steam. Right now he is sawing logs at my feet. When we go to bed, he will crawl into bed, lay at my feet, and growl a little when I pull my feet out from under his body, lol!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

to me a groan is very different from a growl and I would never confuse or combine the two. I'd like to see a video as well. even if my dog is being a "grumpy pants" I would not tolerate a growl... that said, a groan wouldn't raise a brow from me so I think it's important to distinguish what he's doing...objectively.

what's the rest of his body language said... head lowered, averted eyes, head turned? is he standing, laying, does he move away... inside, outside, low light?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

is the growler the top dog or the underdog?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Mine just let out a little growl. She's been sound asleep beside me on the couch about 2 feet away for the last hour. She stretched her legs and is sound asleep again. No pain here..... she is the soundest sleeper I have ever had. She's actually a little silly dopey when she wakes up. She's becoming a good watchdog when she's awake - when she's sleeping - she's out like a light.... is your's the same way OP?

I'll admit - she's different than any other GSD I've owned in this way. But I know her sire was just a big easy going guy too and the dam was very vocal.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the top dog carmspack, Hawkeye


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Are lips curling? Video tape would help, are you working with a trainer? Be careful, 18-24 months is when some of "traits" can change, pack positions can be challenged, etc...Maturity can be a game changer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know . That was to have the OP think of it from that position because there has been a history where Hawkeye has been aggressive and attacking the other dog to the point where a behaviourist was called in.

The dog is getting too big for his britches . They are 18 months of age - two intact males , fairly indulged , training ? who knows , not crated . As I recall this growling has been going on for a long time . Now the dog is growling at the owner . He luxuriates on the bed and growls when the owner disturbs him when she moves her feet. Where is the other dog . Excuse me old doggy , but your relegated to something comfortable on the floor . 
Aggression with the other dog can escalate before you even see it coming.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh, didn't know there was a history. Sorry - please ignore my posts...


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> but in the mornings he's chipper and sweet. Seems like he's just a grumpy pants when he gets tired….and he gets tired as soon as the sun goes down. He plays hard during the day and I think he just runs out of steam. Right now he is sawing logs at my feet. When we go to bed, he will crawl into bed, lay at my feet, and* growl a little when I pull my feet out from under his body*, lol!


Yeah, unless you're misinterpreting a groan for a growl, I would not be okay with that. At all.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Newlie has always been very vocal. When I first got him, I thought he was growling at me because that is what it sounded like. He never showed any teeth, never curled his lip, no raised hackles and over the course of three years, he has never laid a tooth on me or anyone else. He makes these sounds when he gets his belly rubbed, when he backs up to me so I can scatch his butt, when things happen that he likes or things happen that he dislikes. It's like it is his way of commenting on things.

I think a video is a great idea. That way, people with experience can take a look at your pup's body language and tell you what they think. You certainly don't want to ignore something that is a warning sign.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when the dog is trying out "bully" behaviour with the owner as he did with his brother , and the owner is adjusting and letting the dog get his way , then there is a recipe for bigger problems .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I am aware of the history also. I did not know they were not Crate trained however?? Given the "past " issues ...I "assumed" Crates were a given.

At the bare minimum the dog needs to be off the bed starting now and furniture privileges if any need to be removed! For the record Leerburgh advises that dogs not sleep in the room with the owner and certainly not in the same bed!

The dog should have a drag leash on him at all times and if he is not out and about in the yard?? Then in the house he should be in "Place or in his Crate no "free roaming!"

The window of "opportunity" to experiment DIY style dog training is closing fast! Speaking for myself the next growl and it would be "Bonker Time!" 

But add a Crate and this:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

You can find where to find a competent qualified "Balanced" trainer in that post.

This is not a "grumpy" sleeper type dog here, t's a dog serving notice that there is a problem here! Attention should be paid!

People need to know when it's time to get real as it were! The term "up leash dog" is looming here.

Now if a medical check up shows the dog has a "medical condition" ... then never mind.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

They are crate trained but have house privileges at this point. Hawkeye (the growler) is the alpha and has shown aggression towards Trapper in the past. The last incident was ~ 6 months ago. I was convinced they had worked out their issues and were now on a good path. However, after reading your posts, I am convinced it is more than just groaning/sleepy behavior. Even though there are no other obvious signs (doesn't snarl or avert gaze, etc). 

Yes, they are indulged and therein is surely the problem. I used the example of Hawkeye on the bed and growled when I moved my legs. The more common scenario is Hawkeye sleeping on the floor and I kneel down and pet him before I go to bed….he sometimes lets out a low growl (not scary…just seems like a warning). How should I handle it? He does the same with my husband.

Both Trapper and Hawkeye usually sleep in their own dog beds (not in crates) or on the wood floor (cooler). We don't use their crates anymore as they are dependable in the house without them. We leave them uncrated, in the house for about 5 hours a day once or twice a week. They are together during that time and don't seem to have any problems. They aren't destructive when we're gone. We still take them to training every week. We have also started taking them to doggie day care for a 1/2 day every week so they can socialize with other dogs. The place has a good reputation and the dogs are closely supervised. So far, the feedback has been positive. 

Maybe we need to use their crates again and take away privileges. I realize this is a critical time. Is it as simple as making it clear to Hawkeye he isn't the boss?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Alright…..no more furniture or beds. Do most people still crate their GSD's at 18 months? 
Our boys hang out with us in the house. Putting them back in their crates in the house seems odd to me, given they don't usually leave our side. We take them out several times a day to play ball. They have a pretty reliable daily routine and overall, it seems to be working. However, if Hawkeye's growling is indicative of a needed overhaul of discipline/schedule/approach, etc. then that's what we need to consider.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Fodder said:


> the top dog carmspack, Hawkeye


Is the top dog really Hawkeye? Or he is trying to get that spot? From what I have observed the top dog generally doesn't have to act like a bully. They know they are the top dog. I have a similar situation in my house with Apollo(15 month old intact). He tries to bully Midnite. Midnite walks away and I step in, I'm on Apollo like flies on poop. It has gotten much better and happens on occasion, our goal is never. He never growls at me or any human. I think Hawkeye is the bully, but not the top dog. 

Do you do stuff with them seperaately?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ I see your point. not my dogs, not my term... the response seemed to fall in line with the context of the person asking. I'm not going to read a year of back post for historical accuracy. it's definitely a thought to explore.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hawkeye from his first introduction was the more outgoing , more pushy , heavier dog (his 10 to Trapper's 8) . His personality and physical advantage put him on top . Too rough play , biting Trapper who would have been underneath him. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/559369-trapper-hawkeye-update.html

not a new problem "Lately Hawkeye has started to bully Trapper ( controls the dog beds.. controls where Trapper can relax in the house, etc. I realize we must prevent/ correct this behavior by anticipating, re- directing, and ? putting Hawk in time out if he bullies Trapper." that was back in March.

the dog's are huge --- "Last weight was 2 months ago... Trapper was 100 lbs and Hawkeye was 90 pounds" but that was back in April -- making the dogs just over one year of age .

super indulged .

they also appear to always be together -- so much for the advice separation and treating and training them as individuals.

They don't need to be playing with the neighbour's dogs or go to doggy day care for group play . 
Pushy dogs tend to have this trait reinforced every time a dog submits or gets victimized . Submissive dogs have this looser message driven home each time they are put into the position where they yield and avoid .

What the dogs need is separation from each other. No dysfunctional co-dependence . Some serious training .
You don't want a 100 pound spoiled dog who is full of himself coming up the leash at you - or challenging you .

I would never have them alone together , free and loose.
One little conflict could become a major fight and you come home to a blood bath.

Separate the dogs . Treat them as individuals. Sign up for obedience class , the classic basic AKC companion dog training. Exercise them with obedience being part of the excursion. Have them earn their food . Adjust attitudes , when interacting with you . 

I wouldn't have them in the nursing home together .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Hawkeye from his first introduction was the more outgoing , more pushy , heavier dog (his 10 to Trapper's 8) . His personality and physical advantage put him on top . Too rough play , biting Trapper who would have been underneath him.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/559369-trapper-hawkeye-update.html
> 
> not a new problem "Lately Hawkeye has started to bully Trapper ( controls the dog beds.. controls where Trapper can relax in the house, etc. I realize we must prevent/ correct this behavior by anticipating, re- directing, and ? putting Hawk in time out if he bullies Trapper." that was back in March.
> ...


You cited that thread but I didn't see anything in that thread that indicated Hawkeye as a bully. Did I miss something there? I thought there was another thread, but that one just indicated once again that Hawkeye was a bully.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Fodder said:


> ^ I see your point. not my dogs, not my term... the response seemed to fall in line with the context of the person asking. I'm not going to read a year of back post for historical accuracy. it's definitely a thought to explore.


OK I make three on this one! Pro's will tell you that "owners" often get the problem dog wrong.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how are these dogs allowed into nursing homes ?

was there no prerequisite for some obedience and temperament evaluation , CGC , at minium?

two dogs with a history of being grumbly with each other , with one feeling his oats and showing his displeasure when petted or disturbed on his bed which you share .

that picture of the dogs on the bed - if the one became growly and refused , that could have become a big fight with the handler and the other dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are priority rights which the more assertive animal has which give him the ability to enjoy the best bed, eat the best and more food , possess the best toys, start play , often rough and sending a message which exaggerates dominance or submission through repetition (happens in dog parks and play groups all the time) etc etc.

this in one of the old threads is how Hawkeye was described , consistently from the pups first appearance on the forum to now.

all the relevant advice has already been given from the very beginning when people were recommending that the OP come home with ONE dog , citing the difficulties of raising two well adjusted dogs and having harmony in the home. To complicate things these dogs are males, and whole , and still coming into masculine maturity.

I don't think I am without experience when it comes to assessing pups or dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the not a new problem was entered in the wrong part of the thread --- I do have many other things to do and interruptions , so that was my error - in placement 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/541298-another-littermate-question.html 

there's your priority rights http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/522546-whos-boss.html

"At 8-9 months one started bullying, controlling, and occasionally attacking the other. We hired a behaviorist who, after evaluating them in our home" from http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...18-help-my-dogs-trying-kill-each-other-3.html

the dynamics are not new . The ability to do serious damage has increased and now there is entitled attitude is creeping into trying to bully the owner .

if you want to review the entire communication you know how to do it -- go to Jake and Elwood and click on posts made by Jake and Elwood.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Hawkeye from his first introduction was the more outgoing , more pushy , heavier dog (his 10 to Trapper's 8) . His personality and physical advantage put him on top . Too rough play , biting Trapper who would have been underneath him.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/559369-trapper-hawkeye-update.html
> 
> not a new problem "Lately Hawkeye has started to bully Trapper ( controls the dog beds.. controls where Trapper can relax in the house, etc. I realize we must prevent/ correct this behavior by anticipating, re- directing, and ? putting Hawk in time out if he bullies Trapper." that was back in March.
> ...


Actually the correct response to this post should be "Roger That!"

What thread came when, will be pretty much immaterial when someone or dog is on there way to the vet or hospital for stitches!!

Two puppies at once is seldom a good idea and the current "situation" would be why. 

Leerburg | Raising Two Pups at a Time: Why It's a Bad Idea

It's time to step it up or put *"rehoming"* one of the dogs on the table! The dog is "growling" at his sibling and the owner! You can't get anymore "Red Flag" than that??


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thank you .


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Just for clarification: Trapper and Hawkeye currently attend weekly obedience classes. They attend separate classes. They have always been in classes. They live together but are frequently separated. My husband takes one when he runs errands or visits friends and I take the other. We switch dogs. We hike with them separately and together and we train them at home, separately and together. Just because I haven't discussed this on the forum doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have taken the advice on the forum seriously and have implemented several good suggestions. And I'm grateful for those suggestions. 
For several months, Trapper and Hawkeye have played well together and Hawkeye hasn't been bullying Trapper. Except for their once a week time at home (for a few hours) they are supervised ALL the time. I'll admit we indulge them and we aren't perfect but we are listening to you and we are working hard to make sure they are safe and well adjusted. We don't underestimate the gravity of the situation. It's impossible to paint a complete picture on this forum. 
Trapper and Hawkeye spend a lot of time together and they like each other. Trapper is now 96 pounds and Hawkeye is 85 pounds. Trapper doesn't growl or try to bully Hawkeye but he also doesn't seem intimidated by Hawkeye. When they play outside, Trapper chases Hawkeye as often as Hawkeye chases Trapper. Their play seems evenly matched. They don't get too rough when they play. I was actually wondering if Hawkeye is realizing he's losing his control over Trapper. Both Trapper and Hawkeye are very sweet and affectionate dogs. 

As I stated earlier, I value the advice from members of this forum and I recognize your experience and expertise. But I'm not a sheep. I know my dogs better than you. If your theory seems consistent with what I'm seeing in their behavior, then I take it seriously…..and many times it's spot on. At other times, it is incorrect…not because you are not an expert but because you don't see the big picture. 

I will continue to ask questions and seek advice but I will never blindly follow anyone's advice………I'm quite certain none of you would either. I listen to all the advice and then make decisions that I believe will be most effective and appropriate for our specific situation. And I will continue to be grateful for the well-meaning posters who offer advice.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Just for clarification: Trapper and Hawkeye currently attend weekly obedience classes. They attend separate classes. They have always been in classes. They live together but are frequently separated. My husband takes one when he runs errands or visits friends and I take the other. We switch dogs. We hike with them separately and together and we train them at home, separately and together. Just because I haven't discussed this on the forum doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have taken the advice on the forum seriously and have implemented several good suggestions. And I'm grateful for those suggestions.
> For several months, Trapper and Hawkeye have played well together and Hawkeye hasn't been bullying Trapper. Except for their once a week time at home (for a few hours) they are supervised ALL the time. I'll admit we indulge them and we aren't perfect but we are listening to you and we are working hard to make sure they are safe and well adjusted. We don't underestimate the gravity of the situation. It's impossible to paint a complete picture on this forum.
> Trapper and Hawkeye spend a lot of time together and they like each other. Trapper is now 96 pounds and Hawkeye is 85 pounds. Trapper doesn't growl or try to bully Hawkeye but he also doesn't seem intimidated by Hawkeye. When they play outside, Trapper chases Hawkeye as often as Hawkeye chases Trapper. Their play seems evenly matched. They don't get too rough when they play. I was actually wondering if Hawkeye is realizing he's losing his control over Trapper. Both Trapper and Hawkeye are very sweet and affectionate dogs.
> 
> ...


I think the first thing to do is figure out the growling situation and what it is or isn't? How often? You said somewhere that he growls at you?

My opinion has not changed, Trapper is the top dog and Hawkeye would love to be. Hawkeye is challenging him and Trapper knows his place and doesn't acknowledge Hawkeye. Can that change? In a minute if Trapper gets tired of Hawkeyes attitude.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so they are free roaming alone in the house together while you are out and away ?
"in the house for about 5 hours a day once or twice a week. They are together during that time and don't seem to have any problems. They aren't destructive when we're gone."

in today's post you said "Except for their once a week time at home (for a few hours) they are supervised ALL the time" also to add , what then is the point for vigilance and then leave them on their own with no supervision, when you know there is a potential problem.

I ask because how can they be destructive when you're gone if they are crated? We can assume that they are not crated.

"Hawkeye (the growler) is the alpha and has shown aggression towards Trapper in the past. The last incident was ~ 6 months ago. I was convinced they had worked out their issues and were now on a good path"

dog's don't work out their own issues . This is malingering , a situation like tinder waiting for the match to drop.

so safe to say the dogs have access to each other , while alone and unsupervised -- potential blood bath !

you may know your dogs better than I do , but I know DOGS better than you do --


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds like the sibling syndrome is manifesting itself. This is the typical age that it starts causing problems, despite the fact that you have worked very hard to avoid it. They, however, will always realize the sibling competitiveness. Wishing you good luck and vigilance.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Just for clarification: Trapper and Hawkeye currently attend weekly obedience classes. They attend separate classes. They have always been in classes. They live together but are frequently separated. My husband takes one when he runs errands or visits friends and I take the other. We switch dogs. We hike with them separately and together and we train them at home, separately and together. Just because I haven't discussed this on the forum doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have taken the advice on the forum seriously and have implemented several good suggestions. And I'm grateful for those suggestions.
> For several months, Trapper and Hawkeye have played well together and Hawkeye hasn't been bullying Trapper. Except for their once a week time at home (for a few hours) they are supervised ALL the time. I'll admit we indulge them and we aren't perfect but we are listening to you and we are working hard to make sure they are safe and well adjusted. We don't underestimate the gravity of the situation. It's impossible to paint a complete picture on this forum.
> Trapper and Hawkeye spend a lot of time together and they like each other. Trapper is now 96 pounds and Hawkeye is 85 pounds. Trapper doesn't growl or try to bully Hawkeye but he also doesn't seem intimidated by Hawkeye. When they play outside, Trapper chases Hawkeye as often as Hawkeye chases Trapper. Their play seems evenly matched. They don't get too rough when they play. I was actually wondering if Hawkeye is realizing he's losing his control over Trapper. Both Trapper and Hawkeye are very sweet and affectionate dogs.
> 
> ...


No one is trying to shut you down!

And no one should blindly following anyone's advice. But you need to be able to spot "patterns" in advice and when you do ... it would be pretty clear that
"carmspack" is spot on! At the bare minimum it will keep "someone" from getting hurt!

The no dogs in the bed or on furniture thing?? Is not from me that's from "Leerburgh" he has trained thousands of dogs I have not!

But I would say that the dogs that should be allowed furniture or bed "privileges" are dogs that have "zero" behavioural issues!

You did not sign up to become a "Dog Trainer" but that is where you are at. 

There is a freight load of trouble headed your way, it's time to make changes.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Do you think I'm resistant to change or advice? I'm not. When I said no more dogs on furniture/bed I meant it….that makes sense to me. Also plan to set up a crate again. Will use it as a time out/punishment for Hawkeye anytime he growls. He's smart and I think he will quickly understand..seems like a fairly simple way to get the message across. Will also use drag leashes again in the house and work on 'place' command again. 

I'm on this forum, seeking advice because I want to accurately dx problems with our dogs and implement the best course of action as soon as possible. We have worked to deal with every real and anticipated challenge during these past 18 months and continue to do so. We aren't experts but we are learning and trying….and our dogs are doing well. I get the impression from some on this forum that a dog that bullies (as Hawkeye likes to do) is not fixable…….and owners should be drawn and quartered. By the way, when we had a behaviorist evaluate Hawkeye, she was underwhelmed with his bullying behavior and told us she thought it wasn't a problem. She spent several hours in our home observing them and that's all she had. She suggested we just continue to supervise until they are adults…..not that helpful but that's essentially what we do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think before this thread goes any further, maybe J&E could upload a video. As it is right now, people are just making assumptions.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Agreed. Currently at work and dogs are home with hubby. Flying out tomorrow with hubby to visit family for Christmas. Trapper and Hawkeye will be with petsitter while we are gone. Petsitter knows our boys well and has owned GSD's for many years. Currently no other dogs in her home. She sends videos and pics throughout our trip so we trust her.

When we return on 12/27 I will get some video of their interactions and will upload to this site.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dogs are 18 months old. Littermates. Intact. Pets. 

These are facts that can all be problematic. 

Assumptions are which one is alpha. It could be either. The one that is ignoring could be a natural alpha dog, and the growly, troublesome one could be a wanna be alpha or beta dog, who sensing the fairly equal overall power of the other dog, might be looking for an opportunity to overthrow the hierarchy. We don't know. 

So, we will go back to the facts. At 18 months old the dogs are sexually mature, but they are not yet mature in their strength, or temperament. If there was an alpha male present that had some years on the pups, they would, most likely still submit to his superior standing. They are like big teenagers -- "I'm 18 and I don't know what I want..." They have hormones going and they are looking for leadership. They will follow a good leader. They may be less likely to accept inconsistent, less confident leadership.

They are littermates. I really haven't read up on littermate syndrome. I haven't had a problem raising littermates. But I am not exactly a pet home. So it really doesn't apply. What you have are two males of similar strength, size, power, standing, that have grown up together, giving them ample opportunity to test the other's power through play, and know each other's weaknesses, etc. At some point, you could reach over to give the one dog a piece of cheese before the other, and it may just be on for that alone. Sometimes our interfering with the natural order can create issues.

They are both intact. Hormones are raging. They both know the other is intact. Males fight for breeding rights. And yes, getting the lesser of the two neutered could make a difference. Getting them both neutered, maybe, especially if there are females anywhere near. 

And, they are pets. Most of our dogs are indeed pets. Since I am not a shepherd and know none, I really can't say what being a working dog is really like, but if someone is raising sheep and dogs, working with them 14-16 hours a day, one would think that the relationship between the dogs and the shepherd would far outstrip what we who own pets generally have. Even if we stay at home and are with our dogs 24/7, I don't believe it is the same as actually working the dog for the duration. Pets would generally have more freedom -- untasked time without restraint, less opportunity to channel their energy and brains into something positive, less opportunity to build the bond of trust, etc. 

I don't know what to suggest at this point.
It is late in the day to consider rehoming one at this point.
I might consider upping the training and work in classes and out of classes, doing something new, agility, nosework, tracking, herding schutzhund. 
I think that not letting a dog sleep on your bed is pretty much crazy stuff, but if a dog of mine growled at me, really growled at me from my bed, that dog would spend the next year crated at night. Maybe longer. There would be some serious boot camp going on. So far, I am glad that I have never had to employ that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I think before this thread goes any further, maybe J&E could upload a video. As it is right now, people are just making assumptions.


Well ...yeah and "my" assumptions are pretty scary!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Agreed. Currently at work and dogs are home with hubby. Flying out tomorrow with hubby to visit family for Christmas. Trapper and Hawkeye will be with petsitter while we are gone. Petsitter knows our boys well and has owned GSD's for many years. Currently no other dogs in her home. She sends videos and pics throughout our trip so we trust her.
> 
> When we return on 12/27 I will get some video of their interactions and will upload to this site.


Safe travels and Merry Christmas!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks. Merry Christmas to you too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" a crate again. Will use it as a time out/punishment for Hawkeye anytime he growls. He's smart and I think he will quickly understand..seems like a fairly simple way to get the message across. "

that isn't how to use a crate and that isn't how a dog's mind works.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Agreed. Currently at work and dogs are home with hubby. Flying out tomorrow with hubby to visit family for Christmas. Trapper and Hawkeye will be with petsitter while we are gone. Petsitter knows our boys well and has owned GSD's for many years. Currently no other dogs in her home. She sends videos and pics throughout our trip so we trust her.
> 
> When we return on 12/27 I will get some video of their interactions and will upload to this site.


I got an idea. Let her know what is happening and see if it happens when they are there, maybe she can provide some insight?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> " a crate again. Will use it as a time out/punishment for Hawkeye anytime he growls. He's smart and I think he will quickly understand..seems like a fairly simple way to get the message across. "
> 
> that isn't how to use a crate and that isn't how a dog's mind works.


Welll ... a "timeout" was called so I was gonna let it slide but yeah.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Will certainly let her know what's happening and get her perspective. Thanks.

For Chip and Carmspack…..you are quick to criticize and insult my lack of expertise, while pounding your own chests regarding your awesomeness as GSD whisperers but what would you do? Beat him????I don't think so……re-home him? not gonna happen……oh, I know…..it would have never happened had they been raised in your home…that must be it, although not helpful. If this is all so simple to you and I'm such an idiot, then what would you do? My boys are awesome dogs…they are smart, sweet, happy and extremely bonded to us. Hawkeye has just recently started growling and we want to nip it in the bud…..the correct way. Currently, we just tell him NO and it stops it short term but doesn't fix the underlying problem. Our lives do revolve around them and their happiness and well being is the most important priority for us. We are struggling with leaving them for these next 4 days, even though we trust our pet sitter tremendously. As much as I appreciate the forum and the ability to gather a wealth of knowledge from experienced GSD owners, I find it exhausting to endure the hostility that seems to be a requirement. "come take your medicine and let us beat you down before we offer a little help"….while having pity for our dogs who are forced to live their sad little lives in our world instead of in your "expert" dog world. I have put up with the snakiness because I'm trying to find answers. I guess it's a sad commentary on human behavior as nameless and faceless characters on social media…..opportunistic. Too bad.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Tammy, to me its all simple. Two young male dogs are going to think for themselves when they get the chance. The better you do at limiting the the situations where they do that, the easier everything is. Generally, when you see the growling or bullying, whatever, its the results of things that have gone on when you didn't notice. Controlling the situations and conditions makes everyone look like a good trainer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"For Chip and Carmspack…..you are quick to criticize and insult my lack of expertise, while pounding your own chests regarding your awesomeness as GSD whisperers but what would you do? Beat him????I don't think so……re-home him? not gonna happen"

GET A GRIP . Not once has there been criticism of you -- only advice , repetitive advice, consistent advice , from the time you were looking at getting littermates and in every thread and post since . 

the help that you are looking for remains -- separate the two dogs . Crate and rotate . Take to meaningful structured obedience classes - you can prove the work by going in for an AKC title such as the basic Companion Dog . That gives you a bar to rise to .
The problems you are facing are inherent with having siblings , complicated by being intact same gender pair . 


"And I will continue to be grateful for the well-meaning posters who offer advice. "

So , this is not the first time you have alluded to my (specifically) advice -- which is nothing but well meaning .
Nothing but well meaning , just not what you want to hear.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

JandE, as soon as you see "the look", immediately you say "Oops" (as you can not say that in a mean way), take that dog by the collar without further explanations, gentle but as a matter of fact and put him behind a closed door for a minute. You don't want to yell or physically punish that. Then, before you release him, have him sit and practice some obedience with both. And I agree with Selzer to neuter the lowest in rank, once you are sure who that is to make the hierarchy gap between the two bigger. Sometimes the one you think is "guilty" is actually responding to the instigator. I would ask a trainer to come over for a couple of hours to quietly observe the dynamics . Pet sitters are not necessarily educated in evaluating behavior.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks (really)!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

J&E- I don't believe that alpha-beta roles are constant or even a real thing. It's something humans really like as a label and is way overused when it comes to our very domesticated dogs (GSD) living in our homes with constant human contact and "free" food. 

In some situations one dog may get the resource or be the leader, in another, the other dog will. You see this all the time when two dogs are playing- sometimes one dog will lie on his back while playing, another second the other will. I see this constantly with all genders and ages. Dogs switch roles all the time in real life, too. 

I know the OP said that one dog is "alpha" or the bully, and that may be true in certain scenarios, but I'm betting the role of "decider" switches frequently. Because of this, I don't advise neutering the so-called beta dog to fix things. If you want to neuter, that is fine, it will probably lessen the tension between the males, but neuter both dogs at the same time. 

I do agree that two intact male GSDs that are showing the signs OP describes are gunning for a fight at some point unless steps are taken. Control resources that cause conflict- for example don't allow either dog on the bed if there is growling. Control entry and exit points, that's where I see conflict arise, too. Be extra mindful of situations where both dogs are excited. Excitement can lead to re-direction, aggression, and a fight.

Watch carefully for stiff posture and hard-eyes. Interfere and immediately separate if you see this. And do crate or separate the two boys when you go out. This is only a few hours a week, much better safe than sorry. 

I'd also strongly advise you have a plan in place if these dogs do start to fight. Thin-skinned people are most likely to get badly hurt trying to break it up, not the dogs- have a plan in place and whatever tools you need at the ready. 

I don't think obedience training, titles, etc. will have any impact on how these two behave around each other in the house. It is a great way to work with the dogs separately but will not affect day-to-day relations or the growling. 

I've known highly titled IPO and ring dogs who still would fight another equal male to death in their own house... OB and training don't really matter, management is most critical.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> For Chip and Carmspack…..you are quick to criticize and insult my lack of expertise, while pounding your own chests regarding your awesomeness as GSD whisperers but what would you do? Beat him????I don't think so……re-home him? not gonna happen……oh, I know…..it would have never happened had they been raised in your home…that must be it, although not helpful. If this is all so simple to you and I'm such an idiot, then what would you do? My boys are awesome dogs…they are smart, sweet, happy and extremely bonded to us. Hawkeye has just recently started growling and we want to nip it in the bud…..the correct way.


 Well... Ok then. I was content to let it go and wait for the "video evidence" but ...since you asked. First I want to say the internet is a funny place it kinda levels the playing field as it were?? I'm flattered to be in the same category as Carmspack?? 

I am "not" a "Pro" but what I am good at is "learning" from others and I don't waste peoples time on crap that does not work! But what I do have is experience with a "Red Zone" OS WL GSD! And it you need to have only one of them in a lifetime to change your world view! Stitches and a permanitly bent little finger (breaking up a fight) don't hurt either! long way of saying "been there done that ...got the stitches! But ... my GSD did not direct his growl at me! So your one up on me and not in a good way.


So with that said it's time to "Cry Havok" and "let slip the Dogs of War:










No one is insulting you or doubting your level of commitment but "some" of us would like to make you aware of the dept of the waters you are in! The first step to swimming out is to prevent anymore conflict and my thing not waste time on "trainers" and crap that won't work!

To wit ... "I" never advise people to "lay hands on dogs" in "any" case, much less a "growling" dog! The term that comes immediately to mind is "redirect!" And the time out to let "Rufus" "think" about what he has done??? Yeah good luck with that!

Bailiff already told people how to deal with this but "apparently" I was the only one that cared to notice??:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7411666-post22.html

Punishing the behaviour is subject to interpretation?? But the quickest and easiest solution may very well be in that thread?? Use a "Bonker" and hit the freaking dog with it at the first sign of trouble! 

Will that work I don't know but you could contact Gary Wilkes and ask him:
https://www.clickandtreat.com/html/aggressionpractice.html

Had I known of it at the time I would be able to say first hand if it worked but I did not know of "Bonkers" at the time I had "issues" but now ... you do. 

My preferred tool of choice ... a Slip Lead Leash was not an option for me because Rocky is a "Wobble" dog! The only advantage I had was an extremely well trained American Band Dawg! Who would "Down" on command even with 116 lbs of OS WL GSD on his back! 

I'll also add that I still have the use of my left hand today. I screwed up "collar grabbing" and my hand landed in Gunther's mouth! 

I knew I had screwed up big time but as soon as Gunther felt my flesh ... he let go even, with 116 lbs of GSD on his back! So if you go Collar grabbing, I hope your dogs are that well trained?? 

I never had a chance to solve "this"problem, Gunther passed following the last battle due to unrelated issues. The next chapter was outward directed HA??? That one I got solved with "crap free" advice no problem.

But for "me"... option two would be a "Dominant Dog Collar" and a "Drag Leash" at the first sign of "trouble" "I" would grab the "Drag Leash" apply gentle upward pressure until I have the dogs full attention and say "NO!" I would repeat as necessary!

If all of that is to much for you then look into an E-Collar as a solution?? I have no idea myself but Lou would and he is on here and his site is in the post I linked.

Until you address "this" growly situation and "drop a hammer" on these dogs ... this will not stop! If you don't want to "keep it real" with them?? Then you should follow "carmspack's" advice and keep them apart. 

It's safe to say what you've been doing is not working?? It's time to do something different. 

Now to be "Crystal Clear" you asked what "I" would do and the above is pretty much it! I got "Sandbagged" with my first WL GSD but it won't happen again in my life time with another dog!

For "others" ... I source information for them and direct them to "Balanced Trainers." "Trainers" that deal in the real world as it were with "Dog Killers Dog Fighters and Human Biting" dogs! 

The above is "advice" from the "Homie School of Dog Training." And as people know:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes management is critical 

yes I would have both dogs neutered 

they are good looking dogs , they may be very good in temperament and have potential for work -- it is not the dogs that are being criticized 

the problem lies in having two littermates - same gender 
and the extra management that needs to be maintained to have peace and harmony 

one dog is getting too big for his britches as he is trying out his control by growling at the owner


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Homey the Clown.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am going to put this out there, because no one else has yet:

While these dogs are not mature, they are not babies either. They are of adult size and weight, and if they bite someone, there will be no puppy forgiveness. 

Dog aggression is not and does not become human aggression. However, humans DO get bitten during dog fights. And these bites can be bad. 

Have you considered what your petsitter is going to do if the pups decide to escalate this while she is in charge? Can she handle two adult males intent on hurting the other? Because, it is a heart-racing, terrifying thing, and if she does not know how to get them apart, your dogs will get injured badly. And your pet sitter can also be injured.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Steves clown 1 : Chips clown 0


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Growling is communication and should not be corrected. Sounds like resource guarding, not dominance.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Growling is communication and should not be corrected. Sounds like resource guarding, not dominance.


Emily you are very brave

MadLab no clowns are good


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MadLab said:


> Steves clown 1 : Chips clown 0


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Growling is communication and should not be corrected. Sounds like resource guarding, not dominance.


 That is "not" a universal. It depends on who you talk to and it depends on the circumstance for some of us.

"Pro's" say ...shut it down! Most "Pet People" and I am one. try to figure out why the dog is growling?? And look for "solutions," I did the loo for solution thing with Rocky. He would growl at the Cats when he had treats so he only got treats under direct supervision. He would growl if the Cat came near I would say "Cat" the Cat would walk away and then "Rocky" the growl would stop! Been eight years worked out fine! 

But he did not growl at me!! Much less in my bed at night with his 85 lb brother! Good luck living with that!

Dogs like people need to know when to make "good choices."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Homey the Clown.


LOL as it happens ... that does look like me! But I'm down wit dat!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsvAj6qfmFQ&sns=em


Gezz I turned it into a "Homie thread??" Did not see that coming???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Steves clown 1 : Chips clown 0


I like mine better.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are two trainers I know and trust in MN that you might want to have look at the dogs. One is Josiah Neuman of Neuman K9. He is very experienced with GSD.

Minnesota Dog Training - Neuman K-9 Academy

The other is Jake Schneider of Allbreed North

Welcome to AllBreed North

Go to the pros on issues like this. Not internet forums.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Growling is communication and should not be corrected. Sounds like resource guarding, not dominance.


 I think that we tend to go a little overboard about not correcting communication. 

If a puppy growls at the cat or at the UPS man, and the owner drags the puppy up by the collar into the air and slams it down, onto the floor and then starts beating on it, you can bet that that puppy is never going to growl in warning again. It will go right past growling and probably any other type of communication, and go right to the bite. 

If the owner says, "Eh! Knock it off Turkey!" with or without a collar pop, the pup is probably not going to give up on growling in warning in every situation, maybe just the cat or the UPS man. and probably it will need to be reminded a few times that that isn't ok. 

Maybe growling at the cat, was as far as the pup would have ever gone, and a reasonable correction is enough for him to understand that the cat is off limits. 

I would be more likely to say, "Knock it off, it's the UPS man" without any type of physical correction, for a stranger on the porch. It is a correction for a warning, but it is also communication, not severe punishment. It lets the dog know that I know what is going on, that I have it covered, that I am ok with it.

And here is where nerves come in to play. With a weak-nerved dog, any correction might be enough to stop a dog from doing _that _again, be it pee in the house, or growl at the UPS man. And some will take it to extremes: peeing while you are present, growling at anyone or anything. If you have a dog like this, you have some pretty big issues already, and you will either find a way to manage the dog safely, or the future will be very bleak for your animal whether he skips introductory warnings or not.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

How does correcting the progression of aggression cause a jump in steps? Stop spouting nonsense. It's a myth.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> How does correcting the progression of aggression cause a jump in steps? Stop spouting nonsense. It's a myth.


If that was directed at me, please speak English. I have no idea what you are talking about. 

My whole point was to go ahead and correct -- correct not abuse a dog for the communication -- progression of aggression if you like. If you don't have a total nerve bag it will be fine. If you do have a total nerve bag you have your hands full whatever you do.

And, your avatar is still scary. LOL!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Homey the Clown.


In Living Color...:laugh:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> In Living Color...:laugh:


 Well yeah.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Some dogs growl and it doesn't progress to much of anything. Zebu is like that. He is nervy and gets angry. A dog might brush him and when he is in that mood he will growl and then go into avoidance. He will growl out of nervousness sometimes. Sometimes it's a battle that doesn't need to be fought and sometimes it is. You need an expert to determine which is which.

I have a friend who has a malinois which will growl at him when he tries to correct him and then doesn't do anything when my friend calls the dog on his bluff and they just leave it at that. Sometimes it isn't worth fighting over and sometimes it's something you can end pretty quickly. There is a certain type of dog with a certain type of growling that can come from different places but getting rid of it is just not worth the effort.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ugh ... stepping in the water here yet again. The whole point of this forum is to exchange information, share experiences and "learn new things." 

To that end ... I don't believe Seltzer was talking about chasing a behavior?? What she explained is how most of us "Pet People" view a growling dog?? We try and figure out why the dog is growling and the best "reasonable" approach to stop it?? 

Apparently that is not the only way to stop a growling dog?? Stopping it cold is not a solution that is know by ...many "Pet People??" It was news to me??? But I am good with it myself, if people aren't?? Then don't do it! And for the record "no" I'm not going to "retool" Rocky been eight years and actually the Cats stay out of his face these days with his treats the walk by him when he's eating (that ticked him off now a days he doesn't care about that either, so we're good. 

In closing "information" is just that "information" if you learn something new you can dig deeper! That's kinda why it's called ... uh ...learning.

So that said ...yet again I'm out!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

ksotto333 said:


> In Living Color...:laugh:






Chip18 said:


> Well yeah.


My favorite is still Wanda.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

How is a dog to communicate what he's feeling? Communication is good until such time as we can read their minds. A growl is nothing more than communication. 

I had two GSD's that didn't growl. Their method of communication was to snap at or firmly grasp something in their mouths (hard but not breaking the skin) that was annoying/concerning or threatening them. This is not good. You never heard a growl from them, just saw the action. I want my dog to growl when they need to communicate a problem. I think what I did with my first two GSD's was "correct the growl" but did nothing to address the underlying problem.....until I saw the problem....... and I couldn't anticipate the problem because there was no growl......

Correcting and forbidding a dog from growling is merely suppressing his communication system. It does nothing to stop the action - if there is going to be one. I can understand what Bailiff is saying in that respect. Sometimes a growl can mean "please stop, I'm just not in the mood right now" (to another dog) or it can mean "one more step and you're going to be pushing up daisies".....

Sire and Dam growl at their litter when they're training them. It's a taught and useful form of communication.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The issue is complicated and there isn't a one solution fits all to these kinds of things. A growl could be the first step in an escalation to aggression. If this is the case it should be corrected. It could be a nervous expression and it doesn't escalate from there. If that is the case it can pretty safely be ignored. The issue is also clouded by how dogs condition to events. 

In western society we tend to think of the mind and body as separate, that our thoughts and emotions are separate from our state of body. Science keeps giving us evidence this isn't true, and it's certainly easy to see that it is especially not true in the dogs. Their behaviors and expressions and body gestures express and heighten their emotional states. Knowing that one can have a great influence on the other sometimes correcting and interrupting those expressions can be a great first step into changing how the dog feels about something. On the flip side if a dog is growling and it results in a positive outcome for the dog i.e. It is reinforced somehow the growling can start off pretty innocent and then evolve into aggression.

Sometimes it's just something that can be managed and its best not to pick that battle. For example Zebu hates being turned into his back when it is time for nail clipping. He growls in protest even as he voluntarily assumes that position and I ignore it. I don't stop the procedure because he is doing it though. He isn't going to escalate to a bite. He is nervous and he's being nervous. He growls over things that are way stupider. Most of these things I just let go. Weirdly enough he doesn't growl when I'm going to physically correct him when it comes to obedience related stuff. He might growl if someone brushes by him when he's not expecting it. It never becomes aggression so I just let it go as Zebu being Zebu. If I saw it escalating it would be different. Regardless if a dog is growling in a pretty innocent way I don't allow it to change what I was doing if what I'm doing is reasonable. In other words Zebu growls when I'm turning him over to do nail clipping I won't let that growl stop me from getting it done.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Their behaviors and expressions and body gestures express *and heighten their emotional states*. Knowing that one can have a great influence on the other sometimes correcting and interrupting those expressions can be a great first step into changing how the dog feels about something.


nd

Well, I must be very Western oriented. To me - this is like saying the tail wags the dog. Or, "If I don't yell, I won't get angry".To me, that requires a thought process that humans can train for in themselves but I'm not so sure that dogs have that knowledge or ability. You don't see them counting to 10 or taking a walk around the block to cool off. Even if they are distracted by their leader and do not become physically involved (growling, hackles raised etc) - if calmed or corrected and put right back in that situation within a couple of days they are likely to react the same exact way again.... until the problem itself is resolved. IMO 


I don't know, have to think about it for a while but you can see my roadblocks on this thinking.....


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I tell you, it sounds ridiculous, but I am not even sure if what Newlie does IS a growl or not. All I know is that's what it sounds like, but there is none of the body language that you would think would be associated with it. I have got to the point that I really don't pay much attention to it anymore when he acts this way with me. If I think it needs to be done, it gets done, regardless of his muttering at me. For example, I usually take his prong collar off at night and he doesn't like that, but I do it anyway. I know Newlie, though, and I have had him for three years without a single snap or nip. I am not necessarily saying this is a path anyone else should take.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm saying the tail can wag the dog yes. But even that expression implies a partition between mind and body that doesn't really exist like you think it does. The tail IS the dog. The dog wags the dog.

You can train it for the dog. A behavior like growling, reactivity, etc are expressions of an emotional state. Going into those reactions heightens into a much more energetic emotional state. If those reactions are blocked through punishment, an undesirable consequence directly and clearly linked to that behavioral state that interrupts that behavior the emotional state isn't able to accelerate into that fury. It leaves the dog open to counterconditioning. You can't counter condition a dog while it is in a fury.

The biggest problem is everyone is so stuck on dominance theory they don't understand the science behind operant and classical conditioning. Everyone is so stuck on theories that humanize the dog and provide incomplete and sometimes just plain wrong explanations for how dogs think, behave, and react to their surroundings. Programs like NILF and things of that nature are an expression of that lack of understanding.

Dogs learn in pictures under the principles of operant and classical conditioning. There isn't a whole lot of bleedover. You can't eat before a dog, step out of doors before a dog, not let it sleep on your bed, ignore it when it seeks your attention, and walk with your chest puffed out and expect the dog to somehow see you as a dominant life form and then proceed to do everything you want. Dogs don't work like that, and everytime I see a trainer or person talk like that it makes me want to pull my hair out.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

newlie said:


> I tell you, it sounds ridiculous, but I am not even sure if what Newlie does IS a growl or not. All I know is that's what it sounds like, but there is none of the body language that you would think would be associated with it. I have got to the point that I really don't pay much attention to it anymore when he acts this way with me. If I think it needs to be done, it gets done, regardless of his muttering at me. For example, I usually take his prong collar off at night and he doesn't like that, but I do it anyway. I know Newlie, though, and I have had him for three years without a single snap or nip. I am not necessarily saying this is a path anyone else should take.



If that's how it is keep doing what you're doing. It doesn't sound like a problem worth bothering with.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> nd
> 
> Well, I must be very Western oriented. To me - this is like saying the tail wags the dog. Or, "If I don't yell, I won't get angry".To me, that requires a thought process that humans can train for in themselves but I'm not so sure that dogs have that knowledge or ability. You don't see them counting to 10 or taking a walk around the block to cool off. Even if they are distracted by their leader and do not become physically involved (growling, hackles raised etc) - if calmed or corrected and put right back in that situation within a couple of days they are likely to react the same exact way again.... until the problem itself is resolved. IMO
> 
> ...


The biggest roadblock you are suffering from is because you are seeing the dog from the perspective of a human, you understand the dog based on your experiences as a human. You are not seeing the dog for what it is. You are seeing the dog for what you are.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Baillif said:


> The issue is complicated and there isn't a one solution fits all to these kinds of things. A growl could be the first step in an escalation to aggression. If this is the case it should be corrected. It could be a nervous expression and it doesn't escalate from there. If that is the case it can pretty safely be ignored. The issue is also clouded by how dogs condition to events.


Which is exactly why people should have waited to see a video before even having an opinion.

Jax talks all the time. ALL THE TIME. Anyone that doesn't know her would think she was growling. She's not. Her growl has a totally different tone and comes with a lip curl. 

The comment from the OP on her dog growling when she pulls her feet out from under him? Yup...can totally relate and hear Jax telling me off. Again, it's not a growl. There is no aggression.

The fact that the dog is making this growling noise when nobody is around? And it's only happening at night? That makes me want more information that can't be expressed only in words on a forum.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The biggest roadblock you are suffering from is because you are seeing the dog from the perspective of a human, you understand the dog based on your experiences as a human. You are not seeing the dog for what it is. You are seeing the dog for what you are.


Ha! I know. I need something that will help alter my mind..... mmm - The teachings of Don Juan - I haven't read that series since 1970. Are you familiar with them - They really make a mockery of the Western way of thinking about things like this.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

If a growl is accompanying bad nerves then stopping the growl actually helps the dog relax imo. If it's aggression then you help stop the aggression by stopping the growl.

It may be nothing, or not even a growl as has been stated but generally I don't want to hear my dogs or any dog I'm looking after growl. i don't let them bark either. I accept they will alert bark but I expect them to stop when I tell them.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

newlie said:


> I tell you, it sounds ridiculous, but I am not even sure if what Newlie does IS a growl or not. All I know is that's what it sounds like, but there is none of the body language that you would think would be associated with it. I have got to the point that I really don't pay much attention to it anymore when he acts this way with me. If I think it needs to be done, it gets done, regardless of his muttering at me. *For example, I usually take his prong collar off at night and he doesn't like that, but I do it anyway.* I know Newlie, though, and I have had him for three years without a single snap or nip. I am not necessarily saying this is a path anyone else should take.


I thought prongs were only supposed to worn during training.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

training is for the life of the dog


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Stone- read up on "power poses". Body position supposedly does influence mind, in fact I believe there is research showing a link between the hunched over, weak position people assume when looking at their smartphone and depression.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> training is for the life of the dog


For every second of a dog's life, even when sleeping?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He took the collar off before that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


> He took the collar off before that.


The comment stated "usually" takes the collar off at night, that in itself, and that still leaves down time during the day with a prong on.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Stone- read up on "power poses". Body position supposedly does influence mind, in fact I believe there is research showing a link between the hunched over, weak position people assume when looking at their smartphone and depression.


Thanks, I'll look at that. I've read a couple on communication of body language. I was serious about the Castaneda books because there is mentioned something specific as to understanding/communication with animals. There is an explanation about a dog's relationship with man that I want to look back at.

Poor Carlos is sent out to learn about the nature of a dog and spends an evening wandering with this dog in the desert under the influence of peyote and wakes up in the morning outside thinking it's raining. It turns out to be the dog peeing on him.... There was something though about what a dog knows, what they care about and respond to and what will never be a part of their world. I think it was in "The Journey to Ixtlan"...


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

MAW, you are right, he does wear his collar the majority of the time. Newlie likes his collar, he fusses when I take it off and jams his head into it when I go to put it on. He has very thick fur around his neck so he never gets any red places or anything. I do usually take it off at night unless I get comfortable and fall asleep before i mean to...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

newlie said:


> MAW, you are right, he does wear his collar the majority of the time. Newlie likes his collar, he fusses when I take it off and jams his head into it when I go to put it on. He has very thick fur around his neck so he never gets any red places or anything. I do usually take it off at night unless I get comfortable and fall asleep before i mean to...


I was always taught if you aren't training, the prong collar is off. No offense, but I could not imagine how a dog can relax and rest his head while being constantly poked. It reminds me of laying on a bed of nails, it can't be comfortable, but that is just my opinion.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/equipment-how-use-where-find/142442-misuse-prong-collar.html

As one poster commented on that thread: "The prong collar is a training tool. If you rely on it forever, you're not using it as intended."

And another: "I also see people often leaving prong collars on their dogs all the time, whether they are using it or not. Leaving them on for extended periods of time, is not only dangerous but can cause pressure sores in the dog's neck. When not using it, take it off."


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

MAW,something you may not have considered is for us older,arthritic folks it's the best tool for communicating with the dog when he's leashed.We can use a lighter touch and it's a relief for aching hands and wrists.It's difficult to take it off and on multiple times also.It doesn't bother my dog to leave his on all day occasionally either.He's got a thick ruff and lots of loose skin.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> MAW,something you may not have considered is for us older,arthritic folks it's the best tool for communicating with the dog when he's leashed.We can use a lighter touch and it's a relief for aching hands and wrists.It's difficult to take it off and on multiple times also.It doesn't bother my dog to leave his on all day occasionally either.He's got a thick ruff and lots of loose skin.


There is no way that anybody is going to convince me that laying on prongs, regardless of fur and loose skin, is comfortable any more than laying a blanket over a bed of nails makes everything okay. 

If the dog need a prong for a walk then there are the ones that easily clip on and off and are easy even for old and arthritic hands.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...e-find/180828-question-prong-collar-pros.html


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I only use mine for training and then it comes right off. The training tapes I viewed said only to have it on during training. I had the regular HS Prong and found it was pulling neck hairs when I was pinching to remove it, plus it was difficult.

I got the quick release prong and use that now in tandem with a regular flat collar. Much easier on the hands and no discomfort for the dog with pulled fur when removing. 

There's no way I would ever be convinced that having it on for extended periods of time is comfortable for the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I'm saying the tail can wag the dog yes. But even that expression implies a partition between mind and body that doesn't really exist like you think it does. The tail IS the dog. The dog wags the dog.


 Well I see this train is still moving forward! I've been "accused" of not being big on asking questions. But they are usually PO only "type" ... I'll let it go at that. 



Baillif said:


> You can train it for the dog. A behavior like growling, reactivity, etc are expressions of an emotional state. Going into those reactions heightens into a much more energetic emotional state. If those reactions are blocked through punishment, an undesirable consequence directly and clearly linked to that behavioral state that interrupts that behavior the emotional state isn't able to accelerate into that fury. It leaves the dog open to counterconditioning.


 No questions here ..it seems "crystal clear" to me.



Baillif said:


> You can't counter condition a dog while it is in a fury.


 Yep no doubt! That was one of the first things I got pretty quickly when I had 200 lbs worth of dogs in "conflict" in my living room!! Changes your "outlook" on dog training pretty quickly! 

I'll add that anyone not "lucky" enough??? To have seen the "full fury thing" at home, can get a chance to see it at " a lot" of Dog Parks ...if they are so inclined. 



Baillif said:


> The biggest problem is everyone is so stuck on dominance theory they don't understand the science behind operant and classical conditioning. Everyone is so stuck on theories that humanize the dog and provide incomplete and sometimes just plain wrong explanations for how dogs think, behave, and react to their surroundings. Programs like NILF and things of that nature are an expression of that lack of understanding.


 Ok question time! The first part the "Dominance" thing I get that! Usually I take a deep breath and start answering because the first step is to stop that crap! Usually people doing that are having problems and they if they keep it up they just dig the hole deeper, so understood!

Now the NILF thing?? I had no idea what the heck that was?? I'd hear it mentioned every now and then and finally got curious and found this:

Nothing in Life is Free

It seemed like a fairly simple way to get over some pushy obnoxious behaviour in a fairly simple way?? That's all "I" saw?? What am I missing??



Baillif said:


> Dogs learn in pictures under the principles of operant and classical conditioning. There isn't a whole lot of bleedover. You can't eat before a dog, step out of doors before a dog, not let it sleep on your bed, ignore it when it seeks your attention, and walk with your chest puffed out and expect the dog to somehow see you as a dominant life form and then proceed to do everything you want. Dogs don't work like that, and everytime I see a trainer or person talk like that it makes me want to pull my hair out.


Hmmm most likely this part is related to my first question?? You're just listing more specifics here?? 

I'll dig deeper into* "principles of operant and classical conditioning" * Pro talk makes my head spin.:crazy: They should write a * "principles of operant and classical conditioning" * for Dummies Book ...I like funny pictures!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip the website careforreactivedogs.com has a decent overview of operant conditioning and classical conditioning.Go to the site and click "start here".Can't post links today for some reason


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

I also take the prong off whenever it's not being used for training. Too many things it can catch on, even if you don't have a wire crate. I use a prong with a quick-release buckle, makes putting it on or taking it off a very simple task.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I love my dogs!!!

They don't growl at me. Ever. 

I have never had to punish a growl, because they have never growled at me. Ever.

If a dog growls at another over food or a toy, "I might say, "Knock it off!" Kind of like when they are barking and carrying on because I have the audacity to be bringing food out to everyone. "Knock it off, you turkeys!" It does not prevent them from ever barking again. Almost wish it would. My neighbors do. Nor will telling a dog to knock it off when they are growling at another dog going to stop them from ever growling again, unless you have a very unstable dog.

Leaving a prong collar on a dog 24/7? I used to have a friend, a breeder of many years, who would cluck when she saw my dogs sporting their leather collars with tags dangling. She felt those tags had to annoy the dogs. I told her they don't mind the tags. I was wearing collars on my dogs all the time then. 

But the more experience I have with dogs, the more I realize that they do not show irritation/annoyance/being uncomfortable the way a human might. Collars only go on now when we are leaving the property. They can manage the annoyance of tags for a short duration, but I am not going to leave tags on them or collars on them when they are not needed. I am not a fan of prong collars at all. I think they are an unnecessary crutch. 

If someone is having problems that appear to be leadership issues with a dog, I might suggest NILIF, but I am really not a fan of that either. I think we make owning, managing, and training dogs much harder than it has to be.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

yuriy said:


> I also take the prong off whenever it's not being used for training. Too many things it can catch on, even if you don't have a wire crate. I use a prong with a quick-release buckle, makes putting it on or taking it off a very simple task.


I don't normally leave it on either.But a couple of times after driving home after a walk in town I didn't remove it in the car as normal and he had it on the rest of the day.He had a couple of naps on the hardwood floor and he was never uncomfortable.Surprised me too,but it really doesn't bother him.Of course it shouldn't be on with no supervision,or in a crate,kennel,or yard.Sorry about not being more clear!
And as for the quick release,I've heard too many stories about them coming apart so I'm sticking to the regular for now.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Agree with Bailiff that NILIF is bunk.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Chip the website careforreactivedogs.com has a decent overview of operant conditioning and classical conditioning.Go to the site and click "start here".Can't post links today for some reason


Thanks will do!


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> And as for the quick release,I've heard too many stories about them coming apart so I'm sticking to the regular for now.


I've had mine come apart once - when another dog (some sort of pointer) launched at my dog's neck. It has never come apart in training/normal "day to day" use.

I think that for most "casual" dogs the quick release should be fine. If the dog has serious issues (such as handler aggression), there definitely needs to be something beefier in place (and maybe a second collar).


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

yuriy said:


> I've had mine come apart once - when another dog (some sort of pointer) launched at my dog's neck. It has never come apart in training/normal "day to day" use.
> 
> I think that for most "casual" dogs the quick release should be fine. If the dog has serious issues (such as handler aggression), there definitely needs to be something beefier in place (and maybe a second collar).


Thanks,that's good to know.My boy's pretty casual I guess,just strong as an oxAs was I once upon a time.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I had a prong just fall off once too. So, I use two collars one prong and one flat and here's how they connect to the leash. If the prong drops - no biggie)

The pinch prong was just no longer an option for me.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I had a prong just fall off once too. So, I use two collars one prong and one flat and here's how they connect to the leash. If the prong drops - no biggie)
> 
> The pinch prong was just no longer an option for me.


Thanks Stone:gsdsit:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Midnite got his off twice. First time we came home from training and I let him out as soon as we got home, he came in without it and I found it in the middle of the yard. Second time he had a second collar on.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Here's another approach for Prong's popping off, it might make the quick release a more viable option???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0c8rztq1vg&feature=youtu.be


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> I don't normally leave it on either.But a couple of times after driving home after a walk in town I didn't remove it in the car as normal and he had it on the rest of the day.He had a couple of naps on the hardwood floor and he was never uncomfortable.Surprised me too,but it really doesn't bother him.Of course it shouldn't be on with no supervision,or in a crate,kennel,or yard.Sorry about not being more clear!
> And as for the quick release,I've heard too many stories about them coming apart so I'm sticking to the regular for now.


Regular prongs are notorious for coming apart as well which is why they always are recommend a second collar attached to the leash or a prong leash.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Agree with Bailiff that NILIF is bunk.


Sigh ... Boxer sklls herr








Sigh ... Boxer skills here.

It's great that "you" have a more thorough understanding of Bailiff's reply than I do. I would like to better understand the "objections" that the two of you apparently share?? 

If some "serious trainers" have objections to NILF I would like to better understand why, so that I "can" make my own better "informed" opinion.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Sigh ... Boxer sklls herr
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did she get hit in the face with a mud pie?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you have issues with a dog not doing a behavior you want it to or doing a behavior you don't want it to you address that issue in whatever picture it is occurring or (not occurring if you want it to) directly.

I see too often it gets touted as a way of asserting dominance over a dog and it doesn't work like that. It doesn't bleed over into issues you're having trouble with unless youre somehow able to address it directly with a method like that.

Can you teach a dog to get into a crate or calmly wait to walk through a door with it? Sure. Can you stop aggression with it? Not so much. It gets overly touted to being helpful in areas where it isn't.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> If you have issues with a dog not doing a behavior you want it to or doing a behavior you don't want it to you address that issue in whatever picture it is occurring or (not occurring if you want it to) directly.


By describing in this way (in whatever _picture_ is occurring (or not) _directly_, I take it to mean _only that one action only at that exact time (like taking a picture in your mind of that one thing or to focus on that one thing_ Is that correct? Thanks


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> If you have issues with a dog not doing a behavior you want it to or doing a behavior you don't want it to you address that issue in whatever picture it is occurring or (not occurring if you want it to) directly.
> 
> I see too often it gets touted as a way of asserting dominance over a dog and it doesn't work like that. It doesn't bleed over into issues you're having trouble with unless you're somehow able to address it directly with a method like that.
> 
> Can you teach a dog to get into a crate or calmly wait to walk through a door with it? Sure. Can you stop aggression with it? Not so much. It gets overly touted to being helpful in areas where it isn't.












Apparently "my" particular interpretation is a bit off?? I found it a bit puzzling when I "finally" looked into it?? My particular take away was a variation on a "two week shut down??"

A "pushy" dog situation ... so do this for a few days or a week?? "Retool" the dogs "expectations" and then get on with the program of training your dog!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Chip the website careforreactivedogs.com has a decent overview of operant conditioning and classical conditioning.Go to the site and click "start here".Can't post links today for some reason


I looked at it ... All the term's are there.

But my take away was that they acknowledge all four quadrants of OC, but they don't actually use them?? 

Most likely "there" spin" would work just fine with "most" dogs?? But I look for solutions from trainers that deal with serious freaking problem and adjust to scale!

Kinda "vague" I will grant so a more real world example ... meet "Shelly!":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73qT5Z03VMw

Positive Only trainers "step on up!" Bring the good treats with you!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Did she get hit in the face with a mud pie?


LOL no idea??? Crazy Boxer crap! Boxers "specialize" in finding the "holes" in expected behaviours!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

NILIF being used as an aggression band-aid is a huge pet peeve of mine. Making the dog sit for petting and wait at doorways has nothing to do with aggression, especially fear based aggression, which much of it is. Counterconditioning and desensitization change the dog's feelings about what they are aggressing towards.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> NILIF being used as an aggression band-aid is a huge pet peeve of mine. Making the dog sit for petting and wait at doorways has nothing to do with aggression, especially fear based aggression, which much of it is. Counterconditioning and desensitization change the dog's feelings about what they are aggressing towards.


  

Thank you for expanding! I myself never thought it did?? It never occurred to "me" that people would think outerwise??

Hence my confusions?? I'll make adjustments! 

Folks can learn from "Boxer" luv'ers "butts load of "patience required" just saying.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Baillif said:


> I'm saying the tail can wag the dog yes. But even that expression implies a partition between mind and body that doesn't really exist like you think it does. The tail IS the dog. The dog wags the dog.
> 
> You can train it for the dog. A behavior like growling, reactivity, etc are expressions of an emotional state. Going into those reactions heightens into a much more energetic emotional state. If those reactions are blocked through punishment, an undesirable consequence directly and clearly linked to that behavioral state that interrupts that behavior the emotional state isn't able to accelerate into that fury. It leaves the dog open to counterconditioning. You can't counter condition a dog while it is in a fury.
> 
> ...


So, you are saying the NILF is not a useful tool? I have used it with one of my bullies with an attitude problem,and it seemed effective. If I may mention something else, it seems that many of us wañt multiple dogs, perhaps because we know they are pack animals. Butmaybe it is better to own just one dog and get them a cat for company!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

*Video clips of Trapper and Hawkeye*

Below are links to video clips I took to show Trap and Hawk interacting. The last clip shows Hawkeye growling at me at night). 



https://youtu.be/papxX3alw84

https://youtu.be/NQuulD1HgqE


https://youtu.be/wgdbKxDRN-I

https://youtu.be/8rV224TSfLU

Thanks to a well respected member of this forum, I am connecting with an experienced, competent GSD trainer and am hopeful we can 'nip' this behavior in the bud and get our boys on track. 

Thanks for continued suggestions... I have so much to Learn!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

In first video Trapper is on top of Hawk and Trapper is the vocal one. trapper is larger than Hawk.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OK... I recognize that noise. It is "I need quiet, I want to sleep." Hans does that too in the evening when we have the TV on and he is trying to go to sleep. It is more of a groan, not a growl, at least that is what we have here. More like an exasperated, not aggressive, dog. 

In the video, I know you are trying to show what he does... but instead of leaving him alone, you talk to him, approach, even pet. The dog understands that his moan didn't get the message across, and gets frustrated. I don't want to be petted when I am trying to sleep. 

The cooing "it's okaaaaayyyyy" is not what I would do in this case. It is not OK. 
But I would take it as a communication from the dog, and I would turn around and leave him be.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OK, I watched the ball video, not to the end, but enough to see that the dogs do not respect you and you need to learn authority over them. Honestly, you are treating them like children and they know they don't have to listen to you. Letting them have the ball teaches them that you do not mean business. 
YOU are supposed to be the owner, keeper and giver of those balls, and they had better hand them over when you say. Otherwise, they think THEY own the toys, and are allowed to disrespect you.
Also, I would play separately with ball, not both dogs at once. 
The trainer will be invaluable in teaching you to channel your inner benevolent dictator, because GSDs do not respond to sweet cooing. 
That is my observation.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ok. So in the first video Trapper gets overstimulated. His full hackles are up, then he gets insecure, runs and takes cover. He is insecure. (I say this seeing the 3 minute video and that's it, I may be wrong) 

The "growling" isn't growling. It's groaning. The dog is not tense, the dog is not "uncomfortable" the dog is just talking to you. My boy does that every time I hug him. I did not watch it until the end, so if he snarls or snaps at the end, I didn't see it. But that dog did not even roll it's eyes, lick it's lips. He is talking. If it makes you uncomfortable. Don't bug him. But that's not a sound or body language I would personally be worried about.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

My dogs groan all the time, we actually like it, it's funny, it's like talking. Ruby sometimes growls at night at sounds she hears, we actually laugh because we will say leave it and she winds down slowly and sounds like an engine that is having a hard time starting up. 

They always play with hackles up. I have crazy videos on youtube of their wild crazy play. 

I know some people who could not keep two unfixed males together under 1 roof.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Watched the videos, thats not growling. Its groaning. My husbands previous dog was a big talked and the more you petted him the more he groaned, it was so cute. 

Zeus sounds just like that when he wants belly rubs and he is very tired. Sometimes he will groan louder if i am not touching him and ignoring him. Same groans when he turns over at night or alarm clock rings early. I find it cute I love hearing him. 

About the ball, meh i think some comments are a little harsh, I let mine play keep away. When they realize I am not playing back they will come and put it on my feet. I treat mine like children too. 

They don't do this with my personal stuff only toys that they know are theirs. 

I think you have wonderful dogs, I see nothing wrong at all. Nice dogs!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

In the first video Hawkeyes tail posture when Trapper was under the table gave me the impression that he wasn't happy with the correction. Is that bad, it could probably escalate. I prefer not to play ball with two dogs at a time, Midnite does not always give me the ball, but it isn't a big deal for me because he is missing out and it makes it easier for me to play ball with another one. I don't see it as a lack of authority or respect, because if I really wanted the ball I would get it. I also didn't see growling, it's a groan.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

First video at 1:49, it strikes me that "something is going on??" Decisions being made??

Last video I see a tentative owner hovering and bugging the crap out of a dog trying to sleep?? I could not hear anything however but lot of noise outside here at the moment.

But if you have someone with eyes on ... it should be all good.


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## annap24 (Jul 22, 2014)

I don't think letting the dogs keep the ball is a problem, but I do think you giving the command "drop it" and then laughing when they don't and letting them have it could become problematic. I have a similar view as others, where if the dogs want to play keep away that's fine because they're missing out. But if I tell a dog to drop something, I expect them to drop it. By not reinforcing the command you gave, you're teaching them that it's ok for them to decide to ignore you. That isn't something I would want my dogs to get in their heads. Playing tug/keep away doesn't encourage dominance like some think, but allowing them to disobey commands and not correcting them for that can cause issues.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

first video: the play appeared calm and appropriate, at some point, hawk eye changed his mind and things got tense. they took longer than I'd like to get back on neutral terms and for that reason I wouldn't leave two adolescent boys together unsupervised - not with the expectation of intervening, I'm actually glad you let them work it out once it got to a certain point... but to be there if things were to become more serious. if they were opposite sex or a wider age gap, my opinion could change. it was nice that they kept their distance but there was still a lot of communication happening. my males are similar but the older one is better at diffusing the situations rather than becoming submissive.

as far as catching early signs and keeping things under control... at that first snip around the :40 mark... personally, I would have thrown in a "that's enough boys, go to your beds"

video two: I tug with my boys and I let them win... but if I ask them to give up the ball, they need to, right away.

video three: good boys!

video four: as it stands, he's groaning. that said - the stroking and telling him it's okay is either going to piss him off or it's going to reinforce it. but in my house if I move in my own bed and you grown - there's a good chance I'll tell you to get off my bed. if you groan on your own to get comfortable it's all good.

different strokes different folks.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ps. thanks returning with videos - very helpful for those of us who followed the thread.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Compared to my dogs, yours are calm. I laughed at the rough play. If mine played that politely I would be happy. I've leap over each other, snap, growl, and do all kinds of crazy things they they play. 

That groan is almost like purring. I had a male dog who did that when he was calm and happy. 

I didn't see a video of aggression. I missed that one. The ball is typical of a dog who is protective or possessive of his toys. I never take something they want without replacing it with something better or giving it back.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Compared to my dogs, yours are calm. I laughed at the rough play. If mine played that politely I would be happy. I've leap over each other, snap, growl, and do all kinds of crazy things they they play.
> 
> That groan is almost like purring. I had a male dog who did that when he was calm and happy.
> 
> I didn't see a video of aggression. I missed that one. The ball is typical of a dog who is protective or possessive of his toys. I never take something they want without replacing it with something better or giving it back.


Exactly these dogs are angels, the way mine play and the sounds they make... oh my!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Our female plays rough and gets away with it because she is a girl. With the dog we lost last year and with our new puppy, she is quite vocal and active.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Neko said:


> Exactly these dogs are angels, the way mine play and the sounds they make... oh my!


Mine are also a lot rougher and louder. I thought the same thing when I watched the video...this is playing?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I do wonder if everyone watched the first video all the way thru?! what went on under the table was not angel like and could very likely escalate... but you can't expect much more from two passive-aggressive teenage boys trying to find their voice. if my boys were like that at 3 and 9, to me it'd be a problem. not a panic and hire a behaviorist problem... but a seperate when I'm not home problem.

I prefer the noise on the front end... my boys play way rougher and louder too!


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Now this is playing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpdCESA4UZs 

And what my typical day looks like, they hug they play they groom each other. 

https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithZe...0.1451963754./365867403602634/?type=3&theater

I did see what happened under the table, in this house its all day, they snarl at each other and second later clean ears. They are dogs after all, they can communicate with each other. i never had anything escalate, they act like siblings not puppets.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Fodder said:


> ^ I do wonder if everyone watched the first video all the way thru?! what went on under the table was not angel like and could very likely escalate... but you can't expect much more from two teenage boys trying to find their voice. if my boys were like that at 3 and 9, to me it'd be a problem. not a panic and hire a behaviorist problem... but a seperate when I'm not home problem.


I did notice that--that is what I commented on.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Neko said:


> Now this is playing... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpdCESA4UZs
> 
> And what my typical day looks like, they hug they play they groom each other.
> 
> ...


This is still quieter then mine. Add one more GSD, and a golden that thinks he is a GSD. They bang against the fence a few times, then come in and sleep together.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

llombardo -- I saw that, I removed the arrow when I saw you commented between me and the last post


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

llombardo said:


> This is still quieter then mine. Add one more GSD, and a golden that thinks he is a GSD. They bang against the fence a few times, then come in and sleep together.


Much quieter than my two, but similar energy level. Maybe the girls are just more talkative..


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

In the one where he's growling at you Tammy, what if instead of coddling him you told him to move?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I don't like something, am not sure about something, realize I can't enforce something, I NEVER say "that's ok" to the dog. 

Usually, "OK" is a release word, usually at the end of an obedience exercise like STAY. "OK" can be recognized as something that is right, a response from the dog that is correct. The dog stayed, OK, oh, I did it right, I get to get up now, yay, I got a treat. 

Sometimes we use OK to tell the dog we have it covered, the situation is OK, the man I just let into the house is not an axe murderer, looking to steal treats out of the fridge. "He's OK" That means, the dog better not eat him. 

I would not say OK when the action out of the dog was clearly not OK. If you want the dog to drop the ball, he should drop the ball and it is not OK for him not to. Yeah, playing tug is ok. Sure, but then you're playing tug. You are letting the dog win to build confidence and you are challenging him for exercise and drive, etc. But you still have to be in control of the game. Because dominance bunk aside, dogs LEARN to ignore commands when they are given but not enforced. 

Two young adolescent dogs. It's great when the play and wear each other out, but the are also likely to get on each other now and again. 

You chose to have two, you need to work with each separately and probably together too. I would work with them regularly probably for a couple of years, take them separately to classes off and on.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This is still quieter then mine. Add one more GSD, and a golden that thinks he is a GSD. They bang against the fence a few times, then come in and sleep together.


"bang against the fence" lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> If I don't like something, am not sure about something, realize I can't enforce something, I NEVER say "that's ok" to the dog.
> 
> Usually, "OK" is a release word, usually at the end of an obedience exercise like STAY. "OK" can be recognized as something that is right, a response from the dog that is correct. The dog stayed, OK, oh, I did it right, I get to get up now, yay, I got a treat.
> 
> ...


Oh and easy one.

I use "OK" as a release word primarily at thresholds and in or out of the car. OK and Rock knows ... He's good to go!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

neko I understand your point and I watched your video. as much snarling and snapping and hackles that show, it's still a very different conversation that your boys are having. you have not had things escalate but I'm pretty sure the OPs dogs have fought before, and hawkeye was the aggressor. different history, different relationship. certainly they've matured and perhaps came to a different understanding, but the history is there. therefore I tread lightly as far as blowing this off. I already said it's not a need for panic but I personally wouldn't let my guard down with these two for awhile.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Yes. I like that idea and will do it the next time he growls at me. He's easy to re-direct when he growls but it's been haphazard because I haven't actually tried to re-direct…I've not known exactly what to do and didn't want to correct him (for fear of teaching him not to growl). So I like your suggestion.
Thanks Steve



Steve Strom said:


> In the one where he's growling at you Tammy, what if instead of coddling him you told him to move?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

It IS concerning. Trapper was growling under the table and was also baring his teeth in the video. In the past, Hawkeye and Trapper have had a couple of brief (but scary) fights where Hawkeye was the aggressor and drew blood and Trapper did not fight back. Both times were outside and we were outside with them. I pulled Hawkeye off Trapper by dragging him by his back legs. They have not had a fight for many months now. However, just in the past couple of weeks I've noticed Trapper seems to be more assertive (not aggressive). He doesn't back down when Hawkeye tries to steal a toy and he realizes he is larger and more powerful than Hawkeye. 

I appreciate all the input and suggestions. We will amp up the training and continue to supervise and remain vigilant. 





Fodder said:


> I do wonder if everyone watched the first video all the way thru?! what went on under the table was not angel like and could very likely escalate... but you can't expect much more from two passive-aggressive teenage boys trying to find their voice. if my boys were like that at 3 and 9, to me it'd be a problem. not a panic and hire a behaviorist problem... but a seperate when I'm not home problem.
> 
> I prefer the noise on the front end... my boys play way rougher and louder too!


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Yes. I like that idea and will do it the next time he growls at me. He's easy to re-direct when he growls but it's been haphazard because I haven't actually tried to re-direct…I've not known exactly what to do and didn't want to correct him (for fear of teaching him not to growl). So I like your suggestion.
> Thanks Steve


I have a very nervous dog who is anxious and insecure (non-gsd). He also growled at us humans if anyone stood by him while he was sleeping. It was almost like he gets startled and then becomes super defensive. My bf believes in instant corrections, come to jesus moments while I believe in methods that doesn't require me to try and win a fight against a 120+ lb dog. Bf's methods were not effective. It made the dog even more nervous causing this to happen more. When he'd send the dog to the crate for growling, he'd chase him and once the dog got in the crate, he'd scold him and the dog would get super defensive out of fear and his growling would escalate. My bf would hit the crate to challenge the dog and that's when the dog would lunge. I don't like it when my dog growls at me, but I choose not to escalate the situation and I simply send the dog away to his crate where he is left alone. This happened a lot and I would send him to his crate every time. Sometimes I leave the door open and sometimes I close it. Over time, any time he felt uncomfortable, he would retreat to his crate without growling and continues to do so to this day. 

The dog in the growling at you video doesn't seem to be nervous. I think he's being a brat. He doesn't want you being in his space and he's voicing his disapproval. That behavior would be unacceptable to me and I would be sending him to his crate. 

Eh..I don't know why I wrote so much. I guess I wanted to share that sending my dog to his crate has been highly effective for us. I want to show you just a bit of what I described. Note, I do not back off. I continue to stand my ground, but I do not pressure the dog any further. I am not moving any more into his space. My voice is calm, but commanding and I give him time to process and perform the command. It will be different for you and your dog and it's up to you to figure that out - what works and what doesn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3nizkQd7VA


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Hector3 said:


> I have a very nervous dog who is anxious and insecure (non-gsd). He also growled at us humans if anyone stood by him while he was sleeping. It was almost like he gets startled and then becomes super defensive. My bf believes in instant corrections, come to jesus moments while I believe in methods that doesn't require me to try and win a fight against a 120+ lb dog. Bf's methods were not effective. It made the dog even more nervous causing this to happen more. When he'd send the dog to the crate for growling, he'd chase him and once the dog got in the crate, he'd scold him and the dog would get super defensive out of fear and his growling would escalate. My bf would hit the crate to challenge the dog and that's when the dog would lunge. I don't like it when my dog growls at me, but I choose not to escalate the situation and I simply send the dog away to his crate where he is left alone. This happened a lot and I would send him to his crate every time. Sometimes I leave the door open and sometimes I close it. Over time, any time he felt uncomfortable, he would retreat to his crate without growling and continues to do so to this day.
> 
> The dog in the growling at you video doesn't seem to be nervous. I think he's being a brat. He doesn't want you being in his space and he's voicing his disapproval. That behavior would be unacceptable to me and I would be sending him to his crate.
> 
> Eh..I don't know why I wrote so much. I guess I wanted to share that sending my dog to his crate has been highly effective for us. I want to show you just a bit of what I described. Note, I do not back off. I continue to stand my ground, but I do not pressure the dog any further. I am not moving any more into his space. My voice is calm, but commanding and I give him time to process and perform the command. It will be different for you and your dog and it's up to you to figure that out - what works and what doesn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3nizkQd7VA


Personally, I would be concerned about your boyfriend chasing a nervous dog into his crate and hitting the crate. I think that would make your dog more fearful and likely to bite.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks for sharing your experience and the video clip. Your dog's noises are right on the money and your command effective. As we no longer use the crates (might re-think if necessary in the future), I plan to try Steve's recommendation of just telling Hawkeye to "move" when he starts to sound grumpy. 






Hector3 said:


> I have a very nervous dog who is anxious and insecure (non-gsd). He also growled at us humans if anyone stood by him while he was sleeping. It was almost like he gets startled and then becomes super defensive. My bf believes in instant corrections, come to jesus moments while I believe in methods that doesn't require me to try and win a fight against a 120+ lb dog. Bf's methods were not effective. It made the dog even more nervous causing this to happen more. When he'd send the dog to the crate for growling, he'd chase him and once the dog got in the crate, he'd scold him and the dog would get super defensive out of fear and his growling would escalate. My bf would hit the crate to challenge the dog and that's when the dog would lunge. I don't like it when my dog growls at me, but I choose not to escalate the situation and I simply send the dog away to his crate where he is left alone. This happened a lot and I would send him to his crate every time. Sometimes I leave the door open and sometimes I close it. Over time, any time he felt uncomfortable, he would retreat to his crate without growling and continues to do so to this day.
> 
> The dog in the growling at you video doesn't seem to be nervous. I think he's being a brat. He doesn't want you being in his space and he's voicing his disapproval. That behavior would be unacceptable to me and I would be sending him to his crate.
> 
> Eh..I don't know why I wrote so much. I guess I wanted to share that sending my dog to his crate has been highly effective for us. I want to show you just a bit of what I described. Note, I do not back off. I continue to stand my ground, but I do not pressure the dog any further. I am not moving any more into his space. My voice is calm, but commanding and I give him time to process and perform the command. It will be different for you and your dog and it's up to you to figure that out - what works and what doesn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3nizkQd7VA


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Yes. I like that idea and will do it the next time he growls at me. He's easy to re-direct when he growls but it's been haphazard because I haven't actually tried to re-direct…I've not known exactly what to do and didn't want to correct him (for fear of teaching him not to growl). So I like your suggestion.
> Thanks Steve


Wait a minute, that wasn't an idea, that was a question. I wouldn't tell you to start picking fights with him, but to me it just looks like he doesn't really respect you. I would just look at a lot of general, consistent obedience to build that respect and limit his ability to be in those types of positions where he can decide he's going to challenge you like that.

I also think there's a difference between playing outside, having the space to run around and relieve some of the competitive stress vs play fighting inside where one of them can feel trapped. I don't let them do anything but settle down inside.

Even outside, if my two start to get real vocal like that or even if I just don't like how physical the play is, I make them knock it off. Just in general Tammy, I think there's probably just things that have created some competition between them and allowed them to not listen to you. When you start working with the trainer, see what they say about it.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I understand. When you asked the question, it hit me as an effective way to redirect him. I know they don't respect me as they should (my fault). After watching the ball video, I worked a session with them yesterday and changed my tone when saying "drop it". Both Hawkeye and Trapper dropped the ball on command (multiple times). They know my tone and inflection and they know when I mean business. I guess I just don't pull that tool out often enough.

I look forward to working with the new trainer and working towards a long-term plan for living with these two wonderful (but powerful) creatures.
Thank you.



Steve Strom said:


> Wait a minute, that wasn't an idea, that was a question. I wouldn't tell you to start picking fights with him, but to me it just looks like he doesn't really respect you. I would just look at a lot of general, consistent obedience to build that respect and limit his ability to be in those types of positions where he can decide he's going to challenge you like that.
> 
> I also think there's a difference between playing outside, having the space to run around and relieve some of the competitive stress vs play fighting inside where one of them can feel trapped. I don't let them do anything but settle down inside.
> 
> Even outside, if my two start to get real vocal like that or even if I just don't like how physical the play is, I make them knock it off. Just in general Tammy, I think there's probably just things that have created some competition between them and allowed them to not listen to you. When you start working with the trainer, see what they say about it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its not that its your fault or anything like that Tammy. Different dogs need different rules, and you just adapt and learn just like all of us do.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It looked liked nothing escalated at a unstoppable level because you guys were there it looked liked they kept glancing at you for possible direction/or correction. That is a tight spot under the table and it could of easily escalated. Just constant management that goes along with the turf with 2 unneutered males. If you guys were not around it could of turned into something ugly. So it would be diligent management not to keep them together when you are both out of the house again it goes along with the turf. It would make the dogs more comfortable and relaxed if you separated them when left alone. The sleeping video I don't see a growl . max makes that same noise on occasion I think only when he is completely exhausted or just about to go in that deep deep level of sleep, a distinct groan is made if disturbed and always on the floor. He probably says no more kisses. It is equivalent to a human grunt or complaint or deep sigh) and wonder even if it's a semi unconscious response, either way I tell him to knock it off in a stern voice but then leave him be I let him sleep and understand he wants to sleep. I can move him get him up do whatever I wanted he would be fine but I just let him sleep. We have kids and believe me I trust max would do nothing to them if disturbed. I would not sing him to sleep though and tell him it's okay as you heard from a few. I remember though when I first heard max make a complaint it I was like huh? Thus is new!But I had a very vocal dog -teddy-growing up many groans oohs and other sounds , barks that meant nothing and he would even sing with music so it was not so foreign. I can have a whole dog conversation with him as vocal as he was. It's good you posted a video we are always getting to know our dog even when we get them from a pup and we need to know them best. Handsome dogs you got there!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I can't imagine playing ball with young two male dogs the competion is natural and I think one at least would not give the ball up with the other around I'm sure brains get fuzzy. I'm sure you will see a huge difference when playing fetch alone with each of them. You will be able to Reinforce good training habits more easily one on one.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I play fetch using 1 ball, two high drive dogs, and result is lots of fun tumbling! -.- every dog is different, not an issue here.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Neko said:


> I play fetch using 1 ball, two high drive dogs, and result is lots of fun tumbling! -.- every dog is different, not an issue here.


Not an issue there... but you have show line male and female, different ages. 

Quite a different dynamic than 2 male working lines, litter mates.

I know your dogs are great. But your situation is not the same as OP's.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I went back and watched the whole play video and saw them under the table. That was barely a warning. My older one has gone after the puppy with a much stronger reaction over a toy. Your boys get along well and they adjust to each other. I don't see anything to worry about, other than maybe ignoring you.

We taught a toy possessive dog to give up one toy for another one. We love those Chuck It's, but they break and pieces can come off, so once it splits, replace it. I was buying them in bulk for a while. Not really, but it seemed like it. When they each have a ball, take a third one and throw it. When he realizes if he gives one up, he gets a moving ball as a replacement, he might give it up. Then you work on Drop it rather than Give it. Giving up a toy to you means loss, dropping a toy when there is another one ready to throw means gain.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Neko said:
> 
> 
> > I play fetch using 1 ball, two high drive dogs, and result is lots of fun tumbling! -.- every dog is different, not an issue here.
> ...


Exactly.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Well... I agree with what most people area saying, and I think you have done a good job given all the warnings we gave you. It is just tweaking it now. It is true with two intact males you may well end up with problems.... and it may be between them and it may be with other dogs. So you have to, and I think you understand this, have extra control over these dogs. I'm in the same boat but I have a male and female both are not intact and both can cause trouble by feeding off each other's energy. That is my job to manage. I will say that mine are much more work that yours look to be. I was so jealous to see the film of both of them sitting there with each having their own rubber chickens. I can't have toys out, there is just too much competition for possession between my two. 

So yes, work with a trainer, get the crates dusted off and use them so that you always have that tool available. You travel a lot, I think?, the crate is indispensable. So use them regularly so it is never a big deal.

I would be more structured with them an be crystal clear in commands. They are still young punks and you will pay for it if they start challenging your authority. Ramp that up... these guys are not fur babies... just typing that creeps me out.... they are big strong german shepherds.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I would also be concerned after seeing the under the table segment. What I saw was play go to an intentional nip on the ear, then as if the other dog knew what was coming he ducked under the table. IMO the next minute or so clearly shows there is a problem that could accelerate. There is communication going on the whole time between the dogs, we peeps just miss a lot of it. 

Your dog getting picked on had to "wait" until the aggression began to pass on it's own with the other dog and things got back to normal. But you can see how this can accelerate in the future if the leader (owner) does not intervene. We came across all this when we brought a 3rd dog into our "pack" after the first two had been with us sometime. 

Don't leave it to the dog getting picked on to resolve a problem that's not his. IMO the dog that can't control himself has to have something happen that is not neutral or rewarding. A "go to your spot" or if they've been cooped up and not exercised enough a separate exercise session may be in order. You can train to let a dog know there will always be consequences for crossing a play line or being a bully at any other time and you can also help to bleed these bully feelings out before they start by some good old fashion exercise (separately if needed) if the cause is just boredom or lack of exercise. 

If he gets crabby when he sleeps - then he has to "go to his spot" to sleep and can't just sleep in the middle of the room where he is sure to get continually disturbed. 

All this is just another opinion. If you have a trainer coming into the picture please keep us posted so we can learn from your experiences.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Not an issue there... but you have show line male and female, different ages.
> 
> Quite a different dynamic than 2 male working lines, litter mates.
> 
> I know your dogs are great. But your situation is not the same as OP's.


I don't disagree. But I feel like sometimes based on such limited info, things get WAY over analyzed. Like a dog can't be a dog. Snarling is not ok, hiding, flipping, groaning. It's all a bit crazy to me. I was at first worried about all that stuff until trainers told me to let my dogs be dogs unless there is a real issue, and after that, things only got better. 

Ruby always attacks Zeus and he is always on his back, or hiding or snarling, oh well, she is dominant and they learned to deal with it. There is always snarling and neck grabbing, yet they don't behave this way with any other dogs in public, they know better. If the biting gets too crazy for me I tell them to get a toy and they ram each other with toys in their mouth.

The whole working line/show line... don't wanna go that direction at all. My dogs come from IPO3 parents on both sides that compete/competed nationally and internationally alongside working dogs. It's like being told "you don't really have a German shepherd" I know some working lines more mellow than mine. Just because someone has a bi-color shepherd does not make their dog automatically more crazy than a show line. I know a breeder who has long coat working lines that she breeds for more mellow temperament to be family dogs. They are like potatoes, they just look like working dog's, but are far from it. Just saying  just by looking at those videos and the original questions OP had. Her dogs seem really normal and great... to me. 

So back to playing ball, unless there is an issue, I would not change a thing. Also some people commenting only have one dog in the house so whats normal behavior in that house can be different from what is normal in this one. Just like human sibling bickering. 

Ether way interesting discussion. Just sharing my opinion like everyone else.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

newlie said:


> Personally, I would be concerned about your boyfriend chasing a nervous dog into his crate and hitting the crate. I think that would make your dog more fearful and likely to bite.


Yes, we've been through many heated arguments over the behavior of this dog. This dog is suppose to be a guardian breed with undying loyalty for his family yet here we have a dog that is growling at his owners when we have never treated him wrong nor threatened or beat him. The dog just can't help himself. He's that much of a nerve bag. At first we thought the dog was trying to challenge us and that he didn't respect us and was going to attack us. I researched more on the internet and expanded my skills as a pet owner and come to find this dog is not trying to be alpha, he was extremely afraid. I tell my bf the boy is afraid. It's just the way he is so just leave him alone. Sometimes he'd won't move from one spot because he would be stuck in fear/defense mode that his growls would escalate because we wouldn't lighten on our spatial pressure so my bf interpreted that as the dog escalating things to a challenge. 

My bf didn't lash out because the dog did it the first time. This was a nightly occurrence for nearly a year. Even I was getting fed up. Many times we have considered euthanizing this dog. It's hard for anyone to live and watch him be so consumed by fear. I always tried to step in before my bf got pissed. I tell my bf to back off and leave him alone and that I will deal with him. We have tried to positive training methods and nothing seemed to stick and the dog's weak nerves always got to him. We have made some changes in the household as there were other things that fed to the dog's anxiety that I won't go into. We also got him neutered and it really made a drastic difference in his anxiety levels. He has not had a sleep aggression episode since and I believe that consistently sending the dog to his crate taught him how to cope anytime he felt uncomfortable. 

The bf is feeling better about the dog and the dog is trusting him more. The other night when I came home from work, my bf happily told me that the dog slept by him on the couch while he watched tv.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm reading "The Book of Thrones" right now and it's pretty interesting the way dogs are described/treated. Clearly the law of tooth and fang. I suppose it just depends on how much "animal" you want your dogs to be while in the house.

I didn't like the constant snarling (warning) and charged atmosphere in the house when the 3rd dog came. It was not a relaxed atmosphere. Blood was never drawn but I felt it was a matter of time. The dogs were stressed and none were able to truly relax but they were certainly being dogs and true to their nature. There was a balance per se but it was not a good one. 

The newcomer dog, I think partially the reason for her stroke and death was from this constant stress. I wanted to rehome her and my husband said no "they'll work it out".......

I don't like to see one dog bully another, not if they're living under the same roof and if it can be trained out.... why wouldn't you?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

neko, I agree that it's hard to come to conclusions online and with limited info... but in this case, there is more info available. your dogs I see now are different genders and different ages - that makes a huge difference. your dogs have already worked out their order... these dogs haven't yet and the OP has already stated that one is starting to respond differently now than he has in the past. you say one of yours attacks the other but I'm guessing it wasn't multiple attacks with blood and injury as the OP has experienced.

dogs should be allowed to be dogs to a certain degree, and interference and over analyzing can definitely get in the way but the suggestions of separation and improving dog/handler relationship aren't harmful at all.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Neko said:


> Sunflowers said:
> 
> 
> > Not an issue there... but you have show line male and female, different ages.
> ...



Our last shepherd was a working line although he was two years old he was trained in police work but had many issues in releasing so he could not be used he was straight from Belgium. Incredibly trained dog filled with much energy you would even know if you saw him in the house. He always had a calm demeanor. Totally ignored other dogs as if they weren't there it irked my collie so much she bit him on the but once just looking for some kind of recognition.?My asl has much energy much more them my first shepherd. and still a lot to learn 15 month young teen dog. He always gave me the ball. I have been sick Christmas rain etc. kids been throwing the ball. Now I have issues with giving me the ball right away. He likes to squeeze and prance around with his prize. have to work on that now.l giving me the ball when asked like he once did. If I had another shepherd or dog that like to fetch I better work on that when the other dog was inside. Then I can start playing with both again. I can imagine having two male dogs from the same litter same young age can be a struggle in the beginning if you want it to work. I can it imagine it to look like if you had to teen boys at the same age in the same house. Or any siblings for that matter. They look great together and looks like it is working but that didn't and will not happen on its own. So many different personalities out their some are easier to put together then others.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Fodder, I totally missed the blood. Only happens here on accident and usually Zeus biting his own tongue. 

Jenny, agree. 

The OP will take what they need to from all this. They are doing great overall and these dogs are in good hands.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Hector3 said:


> Yes, we've been through many heated arguments over the behavior of this dog. This dog is suppose to be a guardian breed with undying loyalty for his family yet here we have a dog that is growling at his owners when we have never treated him wrong nor threatened or beat him. The dog just can't help himself. He's that much of a nerve bag. At first we thought the dog was trying to challenge us and that he didn't respect us and was going to attack us. I researched more on the internet and expanded my skills as a pet owner and come to find this dog is not trying to be alpha, he was extremely afraid. I tell my bf the boy is afraid. It's just the way he is so just leave him alone. Sometimes he'd won't move from one spot because he would be stuck in fear/defense mode that his growls would escalate because we wouldn't lighten on our spatial pressure so my bf interpreted that as the dog escalating things to a challenge.
> 
> My bf didn't lash out because the dog did it the first time. This was a nightly occurrence for nearly a year. Even I was getting fed up. Many times we have considered euthanizing this dog. It's hard for anyone to live and watch him be so consumed by fear. I always tried to step in before my bf got pissed. I tell my bf to back off and leave him alone and that I will deal with him. We have tried to positive training methods and nothing seemed to stick and the dog's weak nerves always got to him. We have made some changes in the household as there were other things that fed to the dog's anxiety that I won't go into. We also got him neutered and it really made a drastic difference in his anxiety levels. He has not had a sleep aggression episode since and I believe that consistently sending the dog to his crate taught him how to cope anytime he felt uncomfortable.
> 
> The bf is feeling better about the dog and the dog is trusting him more. The other night when I came home from work, my bf happily told me that the dog slept by him on the couch while he watched tv.


Sounds like progress, then. I have not had a nervy dog, myself, so I don't have a lot of best practices to offer, but there are plenty of people on this forum who have dealt with them and might have some tips for you that they discovered along the way. What I would suggest is to start a new thread of your own so that more people will see it and can kind of chime in. There is a wealth of experience on this board, so please take advantage of it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just an FYI...Not that I think the lines matters one bit but these dogs are not working line. Not sure where that information came from.


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