# Fear aggression/fear biter



## tunez33 (Mar 21, 2016)

Posting for a friend. Also posted this in the find a trainer section. My friend has a gsd who is a very fearful dog/anxious dog. He rescued the dog when he was 5, the dog is now 7. The dog has become a fear biter especially at the vet. Even wearing a muzzle he will muzzle punch and freak out. My friend has taken the dog to a trainer who came recommended by vet, one who is positive only and he got some good results as far as obedience went, but nothing that helped the fear aggression. His fear aggression is at its worst when the dog is in a new place. 

He lives in Rhode Island as well and hasn't found many dog trainers outside of positive only. What training methods would you suggest to look for in a trainer for the fear biting? And if anyone has trainer recommendations. He's going to take the dog to jones animal behavior who is a animal behaviorist but only works with positive only. Any recommendations would be great. Dog is an amazing dog all around, just fear issues.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tunez33 said:


> Posting for a friend. Also posted this in the find a trainer section. My friend has a gsd who is a very fearful dog/anxious dog. He rescued the dog when he was 5, the dog is now 7. The dog has become a fear biter especially at the vet. Even wearing a muzzle he will muzzle punch and freak out. My friend has taken the dog to a trainer who came recommended by vet, one who is positive only and he got some good results as far as obedience went, but nothing that helped the fear aggression. His fear aggression is at its worst when the dog is in a new place.
> 
> He lives in Rhode Island as well and hasn't found many dog trainers outside of positive only. What training methods would you suggest to look for in a trainer for the fear biting? And if anyone has trainer recommendations. He's going to take the dog to jones animal behavior who is a animal behaviorist but only works with positive only. Any recommendations would be great. Dog is an amazing dog all around, just fear issues.


Fear biters are dangerous. They require management as well as training. I have one, she's a treasure.
Poor genetics, and improper handling when young can contribute to the problem. I'm no expert, but IMO, your friends dog did not become a fear biter, it probably always was. You may find biting was the reason for it being rehomed in the first place.
Forget the 'positive only', it will very likely make things worse. Find a trainer who can evaluate the dog and give your friend a training plan, but understand that dogs who are fear biters are not to trusted. They need to learn that you are in control not them and that you will make the decisions not them. 
Beyond that, crate training, locked gates, secure fences and signs, diligent supervision and handling.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww ... Fear Bitter + Positive Only = Waste of time and Money! 

If your friend wants to find a trainer that can actually help them take a look at the first link here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

First link "Jeff Gellman" Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training deals with dogs like these day in and day out ...no big deal, he can help people find a trainer local to them. 

Hm ... actually Solidk9training is in RI! So there is that .. gonna be expensive though. Still ... he gives his work for free for those that can do it themselves. I am not a "Pro" but "People Friendly" "H/A" or "Fearful" I have worked with them all (rescue stuff) and "I" do the pretty much the "exact" same thing with all of them. 

Ultimately they all turn out to be who they will be, it's my job to see that no one or there pets, gets harmed while that process is on going ... "I" find it fairly simple myself?? Others of course are free to disagree. 

It starts here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

I would recommend the very first link, I just got a rescue what do I do?? Just flat start over from day one, undo "everything." I don't know if the dog is "Crate Trained??" If he is not ... it would be a good idea to do so, couple of links.:














It's not about keeping the dog out of trouble it's also about setting rules and boundaries. 

Moving on the first link has two other links to "Articles" in it, the first is "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" and the other is "The five Golden Rules ..." I combined the last paragraph of the Five Golden Rules ... a flat "No" touch with a body block if need be with "Who Pet's."

And with that my H/A dog and I went on "structured walks" finding people for him to "ignore." If I stopped to talk he stayed behind me or to my side, and his job was to quitely "observe." I did use a muzzle on him for awhile, then once I see that he was getting with the program ie calm and not really concerned about people ... I dropped the use of the muzzle.

It was still a while before I allowed anyone to pet him (another story) but when I did it was "No big deal to him Dad talks to people all the time ... whatever. So that's the out and about bit, if this dog is still not good with people being 6 to 8 feet away ... no problem we'll get there.  And least I forget company in the home?? Dog should be in Crate or in Place, and company kept out of his face so the tricking people into the dogs face with the use of treats thing?? Yeah "No" leave him be and if the "other party can't do that" put the dog in a Crate and call it good. I kept Rocky in Place and did use a muzzle for awhile but he was Rock Solid in Place and I was pretty hard core with "No Pet" for company with him ... worked out fine. 

Next step ... rules of the house, for this dog more rules, more structure and more limits. No bed or furniture privileges no free roaming in the house. In doors it will need to be "Place or "Crate" period. So ... "Place and Sit on the Dog" great for all dogs is "Place" and especially useful for dogs with issues is "Sit on the Dog" details are here:

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD

That is how you train "calming behaviours" into a dog, the dog learns to chill. Those would be trained indoors or backyard first and then moved to areas with "distractions." Again use a muzzle if need be if the dog is uneasy or unstable but "Sit on the Dog" is done once he understand in areas out of the way, no contact. Where the dog and owner just "Sit and observe no contact required and eventually the same deal with "Place" once trained and use a long line if needed and yet again "no contact" the goal is to "show" him ... "people are no big deal" and he never needs to actually like people but he does need to be safe in public. 

And if the owner in question, wants to contact Jeff he can of course. But I feel safe in saying ... that the more of "this" that owners starts ... then the less time his dog would spend at Solidk9training. 

And in case I missed something, I most likely said it here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

I would say ..."good luck and ask questions" ... but the party involved is not really here??


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You got all of that out of this?

"The dog has become a fear biter especially at the vet. Even wearing a muzzle he will muzzle punch and freak out. My friend has taken the dog to a trainer who came recommended by vet, one who is positive only and he got some good results as far as obedience went, but nothing that helped the fear aggression. His fear aggression is at its worst when the dog is in a new place."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Frankly, if you try to correct a fear biting episode, likely it will make things worse. 

Of course you want to use positive techniques with a dog that is fearful. The idea is to build the confidence of the dog, stay under the dog's threshold, build the trust the dog has in the owner, and slowly reducing the dog's threshold. 

Management is key. The owner has to be aware of the environment and act before the dog reacts. 

It is genetic, and there is no cure. But the dog can reach its potential which is usually an improvement from where you are. 

Positive only doesn't really exist. But by building the relationship through consistent training techniques, the dog can become more relaxed understanding his boundaries and expectations. 

Dog is seven years old. I have worked with dogs that were reactive at 1-2 years old and stable and easy at 5 years. So a dog that is already 7 may be the best thing to do is to accept that he is what he is, how do we manage him to keep everyone safe. Sometimes when we stop trying so hard, the relaxing of all the attempts to change actually improves the situation.

The vet is trying. I mean if you are terrified of the dentist, you can down a valium before you go and it can help. But if the vet needs to assess your dog's condition, drugging the dog before you take him there might be counter productive. I guess muzzle and prong collar for added control, and hopefully the dog doesn't NEED to go to the vet more than once every 2-3 years.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You got all of that out of this?
> 
> "The dog has become a fear biter especially at the vet. Even wearing a muzzle he will muzzle punch and freak out. My friend has taken the dog to a trainer who came recommended by vet, one who is positive only and he got some good results as far as obedience went, but nothing that helped the fear aggression. His fear aggression is at its worst when the dog is in a new place."


I did ...yes. A dog that is calm and balanced ... does not suddenly freak out at the vet and become a fear bitter over night??

The "approach" I out lined "flanks the dog as it were" it addresses the issues as a whole, indirectly. I suppose one could address each instance of "instability" one by one?? I would hope however that the dog does not bite the crap out of someone if something gets missed using that approach??? 

Pretty sure "PO" only trainers would luv the one by one approach ... a steady stream of income, I would imagine?? 

I'd cut them out of the loop ... "yank and crank" free I might add. 

My oft mentioned "Bubble Dog" zero issues with him at the vet ... nothing I ever thought about and yes the first couple of times he was in a muzzle .. not needed however, now if the vet did home visits ... that might be different?? 

But as you know ... the people thing is what I do with my dogs in anycase.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Frankly, if you try to correct a fear biting episode, likely it will make things worse.
> 
> Of course you want to use positive techniques with a dog that is fearful. The idea is to build the confidence of the dog, stay under the dog's threshold, build the trust the dog has in the owner, and slowly reducing the dog's threshold.
> 
> ...


To be clear "here" I made zero mention of "corrections" or collars. 

Although ... let's just say "not correcting" a dog with "fear" issues is not a "universal concept." But ... "off topic" conversation that would be.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I guess I read it differently. I read it to mean that this is something that has happened over time and is getting progressively worse. 
'
I think OP's friend would be best served by getting his dog a complete physical to see if their is an underlying cause to this increasing fear and aggression.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I guess I read it differently. I read it to mean that this is something that has happened over time and is getting progressively worse.


 Well no disagreement there, most likely they did something wrong two years ago ... and they continue to do so??

I guess I'm saying in a roundabout manner, if this dog went to some one perhaps more skilled?? Would they be having these same issues with this dog?? Who can say??



MineAreWorkingline said:


> '
> I think OP's friend would be *best served by getting his dog a complete physical to see if their is an underlying cause to this increasing fear and aggression.*


 Third party here most likely if the owner in the topic was here someone would have said just that. 

But as it is ... you just did.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well no disagreement there, most likely they did something wrong two years ago ... and they continue to do so??
> 
> I guess I'm saying in a roundabout manner, if this dog went to some one perhaps more skilled?? Would they be having these same issues with this dog?? Who can say??
> 
> ...


This behavior is most likely genetic, not created. I doubt anybody did anything to this dog two years ago.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Positive training does work. It does. Unfortunately, poorly done training is rampant in all methods. 

The more dogs you have, the more dogs you work with, the more experience you have the less need for corrections -- across the board. The more confidence you have, the more the dogs tend to simply accept and trust you. It doesn't mean they do not have their own personality and quirks, but life is so much easier. 

Dogs like this one, give us a real boost in handling skills and experience, when we have learned to manage them effectively and safely. There is nothing wrong with avoiding situations that we know will be hard for an older dog. What's tougher is knowing that we might never go on vacation again because we own _this _dog. I mean, we can't bring a dog that is a fear biter with us -- too far out of comfort zone and too difficult on both dog and owner. Can't leave the dog behind, because who do we trust to take care of our biting dog? Ok, fine, we will go to Hawaii in 2023, and just save every year's budget for vacation and travel until then.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I guess I read it differently. I read it to mean that this is something that has happened over time and is getting progressively worse.
> '
> I think OP's friend would be best served by getting his dog a complete physical to see if their is an underlying cause to this increasing fear and aggression.


Agree with exam, I thought from the post this had been done though. I may have misunderstood. I can tell you that a good many owners report an increase or onset of fearful behavior around 7-8 years old. It seems to be the age were owners start reporting things like fear of storms, loud noises, wind or shadows. 
Fear aggression does not develop, dogs are or are not. You can condition and work within thresholds but you cannot remove it, because a good many fearful dogs will NEVER resort to aggression. If you have one that does you need to manage that. And coddling makes it worse. The last thing a fear aggressive dog needs is a cooing handler, or one who won't control them. These are the dogs who need confident, firm handlers.


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## tunez33 (Mar 21, 2016)

Dog has been through multiple physical exams and blood work. Nothing medically wrong with the dog. The dog has to be sedated each vet appointment for safety of the vet, he's tried multiple vet and locations but same reaction each time. He hasn't bitten anyone and is very friendly to strangers. In the 2 years he has had him, the dog has only growled at one stranger while being petted as they approached the hips. He does have a confinement fear, the dog will put up a fight rather than go into a crate. Dog is fine free roam of the house, not destructive, enjoys laying on the couch and his dog bed, no accidents in the 2 years.

I'll show him the solid k9 training, I think that seems promising.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I have so much i could say, i just dont even know where to begin. Everyone has been given good advice so far really.. Being the dogs advocate, obedience, and getting them from defense drive to prey or pack drive is key. 

You can look at my old threads if you want, most of them involve failed attempts of things, but can give good insight, also some good things that works for me and my FA dog to strangers. 

Like Selzer said, you cant fix it, you can help improve it and manage it. Zelda just has bad nerves and high defense drive (like most FA dogs), which is what that dog sounds like too. Its a bad combo to have, but common in bad breeding of GSD's. I groomed a FA GSD the other day, it was a GSD that actually sent my boss to the hospital half a year ago. I kept her on a leash, i walked her out in the yard for 5-10 minutes to build a connection with her. Eventually i gained her trust to get a muzzle on her. And i picked her up, which she did great with and i did the whole groom in the tub (my poor back lol!) But she felt more secure. For her its fight or flight. She knew she couldn't fight back, with the muzzle on, so she felt the need to flight which she learned quickly she couldn't do because of the set up. So eventually she found a position she felt comfortable in and i just did what i could with her. (The dog parents cant brush her at home, so this is why they bring her in..) Anyways, im saying this because security is what they need. My dog likes it when i pick her 75 pound ass up! She gives me full control that way, and she relaxes and i can introduce the fact that there are people in the room and she doesnt have to worry about it. i also know that if i have her facing the option direction of the people she can smell the air (im assuming trying to smell them) and listen to them before she has to see them, and that helps her a lot too. Than i tend to do obedience with her, to put her in another drive other than defense drive, which is what she would go to, if i wasn't on my game. 

Boost confidence. By giving the dog a job.. Nosework is a great one. Any dog can learn this. Obedience and treat games. Agility, etc.

A combination of training methods is typically what is needed for any dog. Counter conditioner, e-collar work at low level stim, positive reinforcement, etc. 

Management is the biggest thing to take away from all of this though. Doesn't make them a bad dog, just makes them a dog with bad thresholds, nerves and too much of one drive a not of another. Its not the correct balance for a balanced level headed GSD. But i sort of feel like the best thing is if the owner/handler can have a solid trustworthy relationship. 

Also a suggestion for the vet visit. Try a basket muzzle than put an Elizabethan collar on. I find this super helpful for dogs that still try to go after you even with a muzzle on, that way they cant, and hit the side of the cone instead.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This behavior is most likely genetic, not created. I doubt anybody did anything to this dog two years ago.


Ah ha ...my opening!!!!

Yes it may very well be "genetic" so yes perhaps the dog will not be all he could have been with better genes??

Still the dog is "paws on the ground with this owner" thus far to late for the "should have got a better dog bit." Proper "training and management" and this dog can still live up to his potential (Everybody's a winner if you will) and if that is a dog that "never likes people" so be it. He can still be made better and safe (within the parameters) I outlined, in "my" view.

I'll note for the record "this" is how these things go "off topic" just saying.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Ah ha ...my opening!!!!
> 
> Yes it may very well be "genetic" so yes perhaps the dog will not be all he could have been with better genes??
> 
> ...


My comment is not off topic. This dog has had training and according to OP seems to be doing quite well with it. OP never said the dog did not like people, just fearful at the vet's and of new places. I would never call a fear aggressive dog safe and yes, he can most likely be made better as long as OP's friend does not lose focus.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> * most likely be made better as long as OP's friend does not lose focus.*


Fine then as much as I see ^^^ we're still on point.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Fine then as much as I see ^^^ we're still on point.


Fine!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tunez33 said:


> Dog has been through multiple physical exams and blood work. Nothing medically wrong with the dog. The dog has to be sedated each vet appointment for safety of the vet, he's tried multiple vet and locations but same reaction each time. He hasn't bitten anyone and is very friendly to strangers. In the 2 years he has had him, the dog has only growled at one stranger while being petted as they approached the hips. He does have a confinement fear, the dog will put up a fight rather than go into a crate. Dog is fine free roam of the house, not destructive, enjoys laying on the couch and his dog bed, no accidents in the 2 years.
> 
> I'll show him the solid k9 training, I think that seems promising.


If the dog goes to SK9T ... I guarantee you he will be Crate Trained! 

Any competent, qualified trainer, that can actually help this dog with his "issues" ... will Crate Train this dog! 

Free Roaming and the Crate is not about what the dog enjoys, it's about Rules, Structure and Limits. Pet People and I am a member by and large don't understand that, until it gets "hammered" into them hard way!!

For me the "Free Roaming" thing ... "Pack Fights" five of them between my first OS Wl GSD and my AMerican Band Dawg and every time Rocky started them! And every time, he was allowed the "opportunity" to do so because he was "allowed" to Free Roam in the home. Had a done Crate and Place that would not have happened!

Any dog that has "serious" behavioural issues should be on lockdown in the home ... "Crate and Place" and "No Free" roaming. 

Most likely if the owner did try and Crate Train the dog?? The Dog threw a fit, the owner said ... well he's not tearing up crap anyway, ... "screw it not worth the hassle." Round one goes to the dog! And it's downhill from there. As I see it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that problems can be exacerbated by too much freedom, freedom without supervision.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I agree that problems can be exacerbated by too much freedom, freedom without supervision.


I agree. I also think that even worse problems are created by too little supervised freedom.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

selzer said:


> Frankly,* if you try to correct a fear biting episode, likely it will make things worse. *
> 
> Of course you want to use positive techniques with a dog that is fearful.* The idea is to build the confidence of the dog, stay under the dog's threshold, build the trust the dog has in the owner, and slowly reducing the dog's threshold. *
> *
> ...


Our former GSD was about two when we rescued him. He was aggressive toward some men and all male dogs.

We were referred to a guy who was and still is the lead K9 trainer of an inner-city department. They use Belgium Malomois (sp) but he also trains GSDs.

The reason I *highlighted* most of Selzer's post is because it is almost exactly how that trainer approached my dog's aggression.

It was all about managing the dog's behavior etc.

There was no Fix. I learned his triggers. I learned to manage him mostly by avoiding the things that caused him to react. My dog was always on a leash or long-line. The guy actually taught me HOW to use a long-line.
I could never let my guard down. It was a lot of work, but very much worth the time and $

That trainer believed that a dog's aggression is permanently ingrained in them after age 2.

My dog lived to be 13. he was the best family dog. Great with kids and great with women. 
he is the reason we got another GSD.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I disagree and agree with all of you. 

I have work with mostly poorly bred dogs, much like Shadow but she is an extreme. I have worked exclusively with hand me down dogs. They all arrived at my door with baggage.

MAWL is correct, they need ample amounts of supervised freedom. They need to explore, gain confidence and exercise.
You never correct fear aggression
You never set the dog up to fail
You never waver or waffle, that increases the dogs stress. Once you've made a decision do it, come **** or high water.

Dogs thrive on structure and boundaries, but they need to find the boundaries and learn that there are consequences for crossing those boundaries.
So you celebrate even small successes like they are priceless, you put your dog in situations that will build success.
You correct before the dog reaches that point, sometimes just a redirect works. And you manage the dog so that it is never a threat to anyone, or a danger to itself.
Just remember that a dog that will resort to aggression in response to fear is not one you should ever consider safe.

Dogs freak at the vets for some pretty obvious reasons. They are in a small room, restrained and surrounded by strange people, weird smells and funky equipment and lights. They can't run so they fight. Me and Shadow did weekly visits to the clinic, just to visit and get a treat. She was allowed to explore and meet people and at the first sign of stress we left. She still doesn't like it but we are a long ways from the foaming at the mouth, snarling and fighting for her life.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Aww ... Fear Bitter + Positive Only = Waste of time and Money!


LOL ... yet again the flair for the dramatic. :grin2:
Well without writing a novel and pointing only to "potential" fear biters and not actual biters. So narrow the scope as it were, to the "potential" to bite or "unpredictable" dog.

What I meant was typically, a proclaimed "PO" trainer (Gentle Paws) for instance, is not aware of "Place or Sit on the Dog." I only knew of a single "PO" only trainer that acknowledged and trained "Place" myself.

And since those things (Place and Sit on the Dog) are done by trainers that do work with and solve the issues of dogs "with serious freaking problems" ... that was the thought behind my "equation." 

The original owner would say the same based on their checkbook, and results I would think??

I wondered why Selzer kept bringing up "PO" only. 

So to be clear ... this time. With this dog yes, PO approach, if you can work here with the right techniques which would include in my view "Place and Sit on the Dog." And once those "behaviours are trained and understood by the dog .. then you work with distractions and you can correct the dog for breaking a known command, "under distraction" ... "Flank the dog" as it were he is "not being corrected for the reaction he is being corrected for breaking a known command. The "reason" why is irrelevant.  

Hey ... can I get a warning for "bickering" with ...myself?? What if "I' had called "me" names?? What I stand for that?? Has this ever happened before???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I agree that problems can be exacerbated by too much freedom, freedom without supervision.


Well now that I have cleared up my misunderstanding with me. 

Yes too much freedom, it happened to me also and I never saw it because well ... my other dgs were never like etc, etc.

By and large it happens mostly to "pet people." We tend to think, if a dog is not peeing in the house or tearing crap up then he's golden. 

For me, I never understood that there were holes in my management. My other two dogs were well trained so with number three "Rocky" I got this ...yeah not so much! Heck I actually De-Crate trained Rocky ... all downhill from there. And the "Free Roaming" for me that was a huge mistake! "Five fights out of the blue??" He was allowed to Free Roam, so he was free to pick ... time and place for a battle ... pretty much that simple.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well now that I have cleared up my misunderstanding with me.
> 
> Yes too much freedom, it happened to me also and I never saw it because well ... my other dgs were never like etc, etc.
> 
> ...


How did it come to be that only two out of three of your dogs were well trained?

Why do you feel that free roaming was the catalyst for five dog fights?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I do know trainers who successfully correct fearful dogs. It's not pretty and thus really not on YouTube, but if it is done correctly and with the proper timing so the dog understands, it can work really well. 

Here's one of the only examples I've seen of an aggressive dog working with a trainer who uses corrections. I like this because it shows the training involved, not just a before after picture. Doesn't mean I agree with all the training techniques or handling- again the only thing two trainers agree on is that the third trainer is wrong- but it is a good video to watch and discuss. Because it is all shown, mistakes, included.






I prefer to correct the dog for failure to follow a known command. For example, dog wants to chase cars while out on a walk? You give the "heel" command, a command you have worked and proofed so the dog knows exactly what it means. If the dog breaks to try to chase the car, then you can correct and put the dog back in heel. Yay, win-win.

But not always. For example, chasing deer or even chasing cars, no command needed. Dog shows intention of the chase, even just getting excited and sniffing deer scent. Correct the dog. After the correction, you can give him a command or just keep walking. Timing is everything! Correct intention.

Dogs get that real quick, but I generally reserve this type of stuff for real dangerous behaviors that need to be stopped. Like chasing cars, bikes or deer. But also for reactivity. Dog starts loading up, correct. It's a behavior I don't need or want. I usually use a trained command for reactivity, but not always particularly at first. I want to minimize repetition of that kind of behavior so I simply correct. 

I don't consider reactivity the same thing as fear aggression, but they are often interchanged and "fear aggression" is used to cover any sort of behavior perceived as aggressive, whether rooted in fear or not, by trainers or behaviorists. So in that sense I may be correcting for so-called "fear aggression" at times. 

OK, back to fear aggression at the vet. If it were my 7 year old dog, I'd just sedate the dog for vet visits as necessary. It may not be necessary with the right vet, possibly. 

I have found a huge difference in vet experience with "aggressive" dogs. Asking around to find who works with the police K9s or who IPO people take their dogs to can help you find a vet who might be able to handle this type of dog better. 

VT girl suggested muzzle and Elizabethan collar and that's a nice strategy to keep everyone safe, too. But hopefully vet visits are relatively rare and not a huge part of the dog's life.

If fear aggression isn't an issue with meeting strangers in everyday life, that's great. If the vet is the only issue- unless the dog is sickly and needs to go in really often, I'd just make it a non-issue and sedate.

OP- can you go into more details on the dog's issues outside the vet? 

Controlling resources in the house is a good training strategy in general for certain dogs, but if the dog is only having issues at the vet- I don't think it will address that.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not sure there was anything productive about the whole him handling the dog part.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How did it come to be that only two out of three of your dogs were well trained?


 Hmm OK well ...hopefully "this time" ... I won't have a problem with me! 

So ... to be clear ... "all" my dogs are/were well trained. Rocky was dog number three, 7 month OS WL GSD ... Foster Fail. Got along great with everybody for 7 months. 

Basic obedience, walked well on and off leash, respect thresholds and for me that included the front yard and the car ( don't exit the vehicle "until I say so) "explicitly" released, doors open or windows down ... once they are in the car it's a rolling "Place Mat." 

If they are in the car they are "Quite" no screwing around in the vehicle period ... kinda my thing. 

And no people issues to be seen? He was a foster so I "ASS_U_MED" he was used to being around people?? Foster homes, rescue day events etc etc. Why would there a "people issue??" Seven months zero issues ... WL GSD ... no big deal. 


So for 7 months .. he got along fine with me and Marilyn and Gunther and Struddell and Struddell happily accepted the dog number three position. And he did not destroy crap in the home when allowed to roam free just like my other dogs ... so far as I could see ... my job was done ... yeah not so much!

But unknowingly ...I had brought a "Trojan Dog" into my pair of dogs?? First lesson to be learned ...Two Dogs are a Pair, three dogs are a pack???:

Leerburg | Introducing a New Dog into a Home with Other Dogs

Not understanding that, combined with free feeding and my Le Mans style exits out the door. Wait first, then every dog for himself release (Rocky with wobblers) ... always lost. Meant I had lit a fuse ... I had unknowingly brought a High Rank Drive Dog into my low drive pack ... Boxers APBT/Boxer mixes and American Band Dawgs all low "Rank Drive" dogs., I had more than a decade of experiance with those guys and "Zero Issues."

But this is what I had unknowing added, see "Rank Drive" scroll down to Rank Drive in dogs:

(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )

And yes ... I "understand" there is some disagreement on that article. 

But ... I am a :









Kinda kinda guy, and my "Permanently" bent little finger from "breaking up dogfights" says to "me" ... that article got it right! Others are of course free to disagree. 

Not understanding that dynamic and continuing to do what I had always done because well ... it had always worked?? 

Kept me from recognizing that "this dog was different?? Rocky played it cool for 7 months ... and the the "old my dog changed," thing happened?? 

"Out of the Blue" I got my first front row view of a "Red Zone" dog??? Gunther was "apparently" the source of "Rocky's" discontent Gunther went to eat and "Rocky" struck!!! "Rocky" had "decided" it was time for a regime change??? It was quickly apparent to me ... that a "cookie" or no cookie was not a solution!!! Had I enforced a "Crate and Place and No free roaming" in the house policy for "him" ... that would "never" have happened!

Unfortunately, I was never given the opportunity to solve my "Pack" issues. Gunther passed after the last of five fights due to unrelated issues.  

But that ... was only part one ... he (Rocky) was not done just yet ... he was "apparently" interested in discovering the "limits" of my experiance and abilities?? So now it was on to challenge number two! Just what does "Daddy" know?? The first arrival of company in the home was met with a "low growl and a cold hard stare" ...WTH???

The rest of the story is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why do you feel that free roaming was the catalyst for five dog fights?


Fairly simple in my view, "Rocky" was free to roam about just like my other dogs, this "allowed" him the opportunity to "choose the time and place" of engagement with his chosen his foe. 

Had I enforced Crate or Place with him, those fights would never have happened. If I had know where he was ...he'd have never been given the opportunity to "make poor choices" I'd have seen inappropriate behaviour and he'd have been corrected for making "poor choices!" You break "Place" and you get corrected!!

Would doing that "correction" for breaking "Place" ultimately have solved the problem?? Well no way to know really?? But what I do know .. is that those five fights would not have happened and I would not have a permanently bent little finger, to remind me that ... choosing a "big furry dog with a funny face" ... is not the way to go to in choosing a WL GSD ... who knew??

So yes a few things I don't know?? But one thing I do know ... it won't happen again. A dog of mine, breaks "Place" once properly taught, and we are going to have a "issue!" It's never going to get to the fight stage ... "you don't freaking move dog until I say so!" For "me" ... it's pretty much that simple. ANd as I am want to say ... others are of course ... free to disagree.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Steve- I completely agree. 

I don't agree with everything that the trainer does in that video, and I was very uncomfortable watching the handling part.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> So yes a few things I don't know?? But one thing I do know ... it won't happen again. A dog of mine, breaks "Place" once properly taught, and we are going to have a "issue!" It's never going to get to the fight stage ... "you don't freaking move dog until I say so!" For "me" ... it's pretty much that simple. ANd as I am want to say ... others are of course ... free to disagree.


So are you saying that in the future if you have multiple dogs they will live their lives in a place command unless you have the time to babysit them?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I do know trainers who successfully correct fearful dogs. It's not pretty and thus really not on YouTube, but if it is done correctly and with the proper timing so the dog understands, it can work really well.


LOL ... I did not put in a call for backup??? 

But of course if I did it would be you! 

And Deer??? LOL yes .... I had my "Deer Experience" of course ... it was with a "Boxer!'" And I seem to be some sort of "mutant freak with those guys??" Kinda weird actually??

At any rate that story is here:

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Training Management and Leadership!

And yes ... "corrections for known trained behaviours!" Flank the dog as it were.

And ... of course "pet People" but I'm "Solid with my Guy" ... day in day out Jeff shows them as he gets them. Periscope app they are there pretty much daily.

But ... his fails ... first day tend to be a longer in length ... to wit:







Back on point that (the clip) dog ... yeah that dogs's a problem!!! It would be interesting to understand ... how that dog was "allowed" to get to that point???

Did the owner do nothing?? I've never experienced anything like that with my dogs??

And most likely the dog in discussion, yeah if it's isolated to the vet drug/muzzle the dog call it a day?? I'd still not let it go myself but ... there is that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The dog was shot at close range by a stranger, that is when it became aggressive.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So are you saying that in the future if you have multiple dogs they will live their lives in a place command unless you have the time to babysit them?


 "Me???" Well my experiance and I don't understand it but ... Rocky "only" attacked when I or my wife were on site as it were??

The fact of the matter is "I" got in Gunther's way. Marilyn tells me that an attack happened once while she was on site. She's not going to get in the middle of two "serious dogs" having an issue! 

She says without my intervention, Gunther put Rocky down hard!! Pinned him to the ground by the throat and held him!

So perhaps the "let them work it out approach" would have been the right call?? But for me, no dog attacks my dogs! Not even one of my dogs, so yeah ... I had a "problem."

Gunther and Rocky were together when we went to work and no one was carved up while we were away?? Only happened when we were there??

So for me ... "Yes" if I have a dog that "refuses" to get with the program! Then yes indeed "that" dog will live his "indoor" life in "Place!" And no I don't need to "baby" sit?? I tell my dog's "Place" and I turn my back and walk away and they best not move!

Gunther is the only one that "challenged" that "once!" We had a "conversation" never happened again! 

Rocky and Struddell, "never" "challenged Place or Stay." I'll be right here when you get back! "Pretty much that simple." As I am want to say. And ...sigh ... no harsh corrections required. To achieve that "understanding."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Didn't insinuate that Place was babysitting, just the opposite.

So now you are saying that actually free roaming in the house was NOT the problem with your dogs but the presence of the owners?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think dogs do better with clear boundaries. Allowing free ranging in the house our in the neighborhood can cause issues with an untrained dog. 

Lots of people do NILIF. The dog earns the freedom. He is not just turned loose and is on its own. 

For my dogs, I have them kenneled when I am not there doing something with them. Babs is given the run of the house most of the time, but when I leave, I kennel her with Quinn. She and Quinn can go inside and outside, but the inside area is only about 10'x12' and the outside area 8' x 20'. It is not an entire yard or entire house. And what is in there is safe for the dogs. It keeps them safe. Babs could have the run of the house whether I am there or not, but then she would not have any way to get outside to potty, so I put her in with Quinn. f

When I am house training a youngster, I will often let them stay in the section of the house where I am at night. I put a baby gate up at the hallway, which keeps the puppy closer to where I am. They can still get in trouble, but there is less opportunity. Being physically closer to where I am, maybe gives them pause. Maybe I will wake up if I hear something being shredded. Hard to say. But it seems to work to build up to run of the house. 

Usually when I let one up in the house, they are not bored and getting in trouble, they are rushing around, playing with their inside toys. Usually. 

Today I let the werewolf in. And she ran around with a toy in her mouth. I had a paper bag of garbage in the kitchen and she looked at it, and from the living room, I said, "Eh-eh!" and she moved away from it. She glanced at the kitchen garbage but without a reminder gave it a wide berth. Good. I relaxed on the couch, knowing that my pup would not bother the garbage in the kitchen nor mess with anything on the counters. And she did not. 

However, I had put a bucket of water in the kitchen for Babs the day before, and suddenly I heard that bucket. I sat up quickly from my supine position and noticed that the werewolf had shoved her entire head in the bucket. I YELLED, "EH! NO!!!" And she rushed right over to me and leaped up on the couch where I found that not only her head, but her front legs had been in that bucket. Distressed leather couches do dry eventually. 

Ah well, I digress. I think that just being in the proximity of the dog makes a difference to what the dog will or will not do. It certainly is the only you can correct what you do not want effectively. But as the pup matures, most dogs can have a larger area to be unsupervised without problems. 

But if I had a dog that had issues, temperament issues, I would want to have those clear boundaries, of kenneling when I am not supervising. Less stress on the dog. 

I have crates. Crates are good for transportation, and maybe for sleeping at night, when you can't supervise to keep them safe. But I don't like the idea of a pup or a dog in a crate for hours on end, for daily management and night time management. A dog should be able to move freely, drink, and potty during the course of an 8-10 hour day that most of us spend working.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Didn't insinuate that Place was babysitting, just the opposite.
> 
> So now you are saying that actually free roaming in the house was NOT the problem with your dogs but the presence of the owners?


Not exactly but "free roaming" with the "owners present was ... "apparently" had "some" bearing?? A "reverse" Daddy's got my back perhaps???

A missed opportunity I suppose?? I never put "Rocky on the "couch"to "discuss" his "issues with "Gunther???"

In anycase ... there is no "law" that states:

*"Dog ownership requires, that all dogs regardless of issues, are to be allowed the right to free roam all parts of the interior dwelling,regardless of whether or not the owner is present."*

For me "now" ... I see "free roaming" as a "right" that has to be earned ... not a "privilege" "given" because "well, he's my dog and stuff."  

Those are "my" conclusions based on "my" experiance with my dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Not exactly but "free roaming" with the "owners present was ... "apparently" had "some" bearing?? A "reverse" Daddy's got my back perhaps???
> 
> A missed opportunity I suppose?? I never put "Rocky on the "couch"to "discuss" his "issues with "Gunther???"
> 
> ...


I still don't understand how free roaming comes into play in this situation. The dogs were free roaming when you weren't there and had no problems. The dogs had water available when you weren't there and had no problems. But now when you are there, there is a problem but you chalk it up to free roaming and your presence but not due to the water bowl? See what I mean?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The dog was shot at close range by a stranger, that is when it became aggressive.


Yeah forgot ... that would certainly do it!

Still there are other dogs just as bad and I don't all of them have been shot.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

That dog in the video was one of the worst I've seen on YouTube. Aside from a dog or two on episodes of "Dog Whisperer" - and no I don't want to discuss Cesar- but they used to have some pretty hard core dogs on that show before it went to mostly celebs.

I'm happy the trainer actually is showing what he does, the process. It takes guts to open yourself up to critiques. And everybody is an expert when it's someone else working the dog...

With fear aggression, yes correction just itself can work with proper timing and a good trainer, but it is easier for someone (like me) who hasn't trained a bunch of dogs to layer in OB and correct for failure to follow a known command. 

Doing so helps a newer handler do a few things. It helps get the timing right, it gives the dog an alternative behavior to whatever it was they wanted to do, and it forces the handler to get out and train the dog in OB- not just have no foundation of training and go out and "zap" them or "prong" them for any infraction probably with poor timing and no clarity for the dog.

Just that process of training the dog a solid heel (without any special tools) can go a long way in reducing the need for corrections, period. Which is what we all want!

I do think NILIF stuff can have some value just in general and is a good guideline for some owners just to get the relationship with the dog in the right place. But it is not going to fix any problems, like reactivity or fear aggression, and that type of thing. Those problems need to be addressed when and where they are happening. (see above).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think when you have issues, it is far more important to get the following right:

1. Management
2. Leadership
3. Training
4. Exercise
5. Socialization

The training does increase the confidence because the dog learns that you are consistent -- puts structure into his life and he becomes more relaxed. 

Every dog needs those things, and if you get those things down, the need for corrections goes way down, and some issues never crop up in the first place. 

Socialization is last on my list because, until the dog trusts the person on the other end of the leash, socialization experiences can actually be more bad than good. If the person has no bond, no faith in what the dog is likely to do, they are probably approaching every situation with a death grip on the lead and exuding fear pharamones galore. 

Socializing puppies between weeks 8 and 16 usually is ok, for the most part, because no one expects an 8 week old puppy to bite some kids fingers off. So maybe everyone is a little more relaxed. And puppies that age don't know that strangers are to be feared. 

But for the reactive, fear aggressive dog, every socialization experience is an opportunity for the dog to get exactly what it wants by barking and lunging and acting like the Tasmanian Devil. 

I don't like suggesting a correction in this situation. I've done it, and it did work. Timing happened to be perfect, and the correction was stiff. The thing is, if people give whimpy corrections, use poor timing, do not move right on and keep on going, doing that can be dicey.

Also, the problem is not so much in the dog, but the owner, if the dog is in a habit of reacting. I mean, if the very first time your pup sees a strange dog and acts like a total nut, you immediately give it a strong correction and move on, it may work no problem. But if you have let your dog get into a habit of reacting to other dogs, then when it reacts, it reacts because you did not act in time. You did not give a command, adjust your path so that you stay outside that threshold, you didn't give your LEAVE IT or when the dog first tensed/noticed/started its Baloney. So, correcting the dog is kind of, I don't know, smacking the individual on the wrong side of the lead. Maybe you need to give a correction even though you could have handled the situation better and avoided the scene. Allowing it to go without doing anything... Again, the more confident we are, experienced we are, the less we get into these situations. 

In is all intermixed -- training builds the bond and we can improve the leadership, training helps us to learn the dog so that we know how best to manage. Consistency in training elevates you in your dogs eyes on the leadership scale. Managing surrounding, helps you set the dog up for success, and build confidence and reduce thresholds.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think dogs do better with clear boundaries. Allowing free ranging in the house our in the neighborhood can cause issues with an untrained dog.
> 
> Lots of people do NILIF. The dog earns the freedom. He is not just turned loose and is on its own.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the insight and for the record I'm not suggesting people have a dog in "Place" for 8 hours while they go to work ... that would be silly. 

I'd never considered a Kennel or a Crate in the past ... never had a need. Most likely all I needed was a little less freedom and a little more structure with my guy??? 

But most likely "my other dogs think" that kept me from "seeing" that "this" dog was different??? 

"Work with the dog in front of you" once I understood that ... "Rocky" and I "progressed" along just fine. Sometimes .. it's the "little things" that make a difference.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Yeah forgot ... that would certainly do it!
> 
> Still there are other dogs just as bad and I don't all of them have been shot.


Genetics?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Genetics?


Genetics??

LOL well I'm willing to give ground. By and large in my "view" there are levels of JQP that care about Genetics. Speaking for myself ... I never gave it a second thought??

But ... Boxer ownership ... is most definitely not a place to not care about genetics. So genes and health that one is easy to see. And JQP, "gets" that one first, the other stuff not so much??? 

In my circle of "friends" some can't even stop a dog from barking at the window, barking in the car and forget walking off leash!

Watching one try to stop her dog from doing crap that I would simply not tolerate ...makes my head hurt. :crazy: 
But to your point, yes "genetics matters" and ultimately solid genes will dictate how bumpy an owner's ride will be with a given dog. And how far the dog can go and how well he recovers from mistakes or adversity. So yes good genetics is important is a given.

Still for me I only do family pets or pets behaving badly when I get the chance. And I, like a lot of the Pros that deal with such dogs ... don't ask for pedigrees. "The dogs an A-hole," is all I need to know ... let's do this thing.  


But ... I'm not a "Breeder" knowing "Genetics" is important is all I need to know. And despite my cavalier attitude ... most likely, hanging out here, ... I'll learn and understand more of genetics through osmosis in anycase.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Genetics??
> 
> LOL well I'm willing to give ground. By and large in my "view" there are levels of JQP that care about Genetics. Speaking for myself ... I never gave it a second thought??
> 
> ...


On breed generalizations:

"There are trends within breeds where you see certain types of behaviors more frequently or less frequently. It doesn't mean that there aren't.. that I say there is a German Shepherd that acts like a Golden Retriever and there is a Golden Retriever that acts like a German Shepherd. Right? They are out there for sure. And so.. when I say these things and we know that there are certain types of traits that are common in um.. a certain breed and it helps me not be surprised when those things happen. So if my German Shepherd is possessive of his toys and doesn't want to bring them back to me but loves to carry them around, I'm like how shocking is that, another possessive German Shepherd. Easy.. but if I say I am expecting that from the dog I am much more likely to be ready in the moment to deal with it in a way that's positive for that dog where I make good outcomes. So when I make breed generalizations that's just like that, it's one to isolate that different temperament types can respond to the same situation differently but also it's to say you know if you know that if you have some information what Labradors are generally like, you are not surprised when your Labrador eats an entire bag of dog food. Right? Right, because you weren't watching. And so having those things available you still need to pay attention to the dog you have in front of you. And all those things may be completely wrong for the dog you have in front of you and you have to pay... but it helps me get a leg up and be slightly more prepared for that. ...... "

Michael Ellis

Breed / genetics matter. So take it from the pros! :wink2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> On breed generalizations:
> 
> "There are trends within breeds where you see certain types of behaviors more frequently or less frequently. It doesn't mean that there aren't.. that I say there is a German Shepherd that acts like a Golden Retriever and there is a Golden Retriever that acts like a German Shepherd. Right? They are out there for sure. And so.. when I say these things and we know that there are certain types of traits that are common in um.. a certain breed and it helps me not be surprised when those things happen. So if my German Shepherd is possessive of his toys and doesn't want to bring them back to me but loves to carry them around, I'm like how shocking is that, another possessive German Shepherd. Easy.. but if I say I am expecting that from the dog I am much more likely to be ready in the moment to deal with it in a way that's positive for that dog where I make good outcomes. So when I make breed generalizations that's just like that, it's one to isolate that different temperament types can respond to the same situation differently but also it's to say you know if you know that if you have some information what Labradors are generally like, you are not surprised when your Labrador eats an entire bag of dog food. Right? Right, because you weren't watching. And so having those things available you still need to pay attention to the dog you have in front of you. And all those things may be completely wrong for the dog you have in front of you and you have to pay... but it helps me get a leg up and be slightly more prepared for that. ...... "
> 
> ...


Well yeah I got hammered by "breed characteristics" no doubt. And good genes and the right approach is most likely why it all ultimately worked out as well as it did for Rocky and I?? 

And it was awhile after the dust had settled that I started to question where did the H/A thing come from?? The only think I knew ... was I did not do this??? Dealing with it proved to be not a problem once, I "finally got with the "work with the dog in front of me program."

But ... JQP and all ... answering my lingering question on my own proved difficult, on account of not being aware of Genetics and stuff. 

Still my rather "laissez-faire" approach to genetics worked out ... as you answered the question for me. H/A is part of the DNA in a WL GSD. So in point of fact ... my approach does work! I don't have to know "stuff" I just have to know people who do. 

And with that ... ME's sound advise notwithstanding, I'll say for this particular topic ... I've drank enough.


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