# Therapy training and IPO?



## Chris1N1A (Dec 3, 2015)

I will be bringing home my new GSD puppy this weekend. I am active duty military and I am interested in getting him titled in IPO but I would also love to get him trained / certified as a therapy dog so that I could take him to the children's hospital and VA clinic here in Omaha. 

Is this possible? Or are these types of work too opposite to succeed in both? I've been getting a lot of mixed information. 

One school of thought is that people don't think a dog trained in protection work would be safe / reliable around children / elderly / wounded veterans. That if he misread a command at the wrong time you could have a bad situation. 

The other school of thought is that a well trained protection dog would actually be MORE reliable in these situations because he's trained how to recognize an actual threat and to respond with restraint until ordered. 

Any thoughts or input?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

yes-I think tdi allows it -the VA is really welcoming to dogs-the veterans love them visiting-the dog just needs to be certified through tdi


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wonder how many out there do both? Midnite is a therapy dog and has never showed an interest in IPO. Then again I never trained with him for it, he looked at me like I was crazy when I wanted him to bite a sleeve. Robyn on the other hand thinks the sleeve is the best thing in the world and she isn't a therapy dog. She could do it, but not like Midnite and vice versa. It just depends on the dog I would think.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chris1N1A said:


> I will be bringing home my new GSD puppy this weekend. I am active duty military and I am interested in getting him titled in IPO but I would also love to get him trained / certified as a therapy dog so that I could take him to the children's hospital and VA clinic here in Omaha.
> 
> Is this possible? Or are these types of work too opposite to succeed in both? I've been getting a lot of mixed information.
> 
> ...


My only thought is that this will depend on the dog. Not all dogs are going to want to be therapy dogs. My male working line would love it. My female would have hated it when she was young.

I think your cart is before your horse.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

You will need to find out what groups are active in the area where you will wish to work. Then you will need to clear this with them. Some organizations will allow this while some will not. 

And as already posted, you will need to wait and see how your dog develops and matures to see if he even shows an interest in doing therapy. Many groups will not deal with a dog under a year old to even evaluate. And some of those dogs who were fine at 12-14 months of age are not able to stay after reaching the age of 18-24 months. 

The only thing that you can do toward that goal is to really work at keeping your pup socialized around people and other animals. Sometimes there are several TDs working in one area at the same time.

Some dogs could handle both but you can not really count on it until the dog begins to mature and he will let you know what he enjoys.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I tried with my local organization. There insurance does not allow dogs that have bite work training at all. My boy would love doing therapy work, but can't.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Each therapy group is different with what they allow - best to check the groups around you and see. Also remember that all dogs are different. My friend and I both have GSDs training in IPO. Her dog would make an excellent therapy dog, but mine is more aloof with strangers and would not enjoy the work.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

My 3 females are registered with Alliance of Therapy Dogs, formerly Therapy Dogs incorporated. My IPO3 titled female was my first registered therapy dog. You just have to find a national organization that does not have the restriction of bite work. Most actually do not understand that the bite work is all about obedience.


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## MagicHorse (Feb 3, 2016)

I have a service dog and in some states, no dog that has been trained for guard/protection work is legally allowed to be a service dog. But there isn't a uniform law regarding it so you will need to do the research for where you are.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

MagicHorse said:


> I have a service dog and in some states, no dog that has been trained for guard/protection work is legally allowed to be a service dog. But there isn't a uniform law regarding it so you will need to do the research for where you are.


State laws can only give additional benefits -- not take away any rights to SD owners that are given or protected by federal laws. As in most cases, laws can be tricky to read.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

MagicHorse said:


> I have a service dog and in some states, no dog that has been trained for guard/protection work is legally allowed to be a service dog. But there isn't a uniform law regarding it so you will need to do the research for where you are.


Which states? Federal just states the service the dog performs cannot be protection/guard --makes sense. It states nothing in regards to what the dog does outside of its service work its like saying oh you can't do barnhunt or dock diving with your SD.????


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## MagicHorse (Feb 3, 2016)

I have no idea which states. It almost seems like they make the laws confusing on purpose. When you do find information, it's hard to tell if it's current and/or accurate.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

MagicHorse said:


> I have no idea which states. It almost seems like they make the laws confusing on purpose. When you do find information, it's hard to tell if it's current and/or accurate.



Yeah it's annoying... I don't know why people perpetuate information they can't confirm......


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Chris1N1A said:


> I will be bringing home my new GSD puppy this weekend. I am active duty military and I am interested in getting him titled in IPO but I would also love to get him trained / certified as a therapy dog so that I could take him to the children's hospital and VA clinic here in Omaha.
> 
> Is this possible? Or are these types of work too opposite to succeed in both? I've been getting a lot of mixed information.
> 
> ...


Hey Chris! I am also active duty military in Omaha with a GSD what a coincidence haha! Anyway, I think the ability to do IPO and therapy together would depend greatly on the dog. Some dogs I think could handle it and have a stable on or off switch, where they would know what mode to be in when, some dogs would not. It would take a GREAT amount of training in order to be able to accomplish this. Before starting either I'd work toward a strong foundation in obedience. You'd want your puppy to be obedient toward you no matter what, you want to have a really strong bond.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

you may want to focus on one at a time. Wags makes a good point. Focus on obedience for now. That is important no matter what you do in the future. You can start work with IPO while your dog is young. Later, when they retire from IPO you'll know if they will have the calmness and steadiness for therapy work. Older dogs still love work but may not have the energy to leap and run as much. 

I'm not sure if anyone else has actually done this. As posted below, some states and organizations won't allow your dog to do therapy work if they'be been trained in bite work, even though in IPO you are actually teaching a dog control in biting situations.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

It all depends on what National Therapy Dog Organization that you decide to register your dog through. Some do not allow it, others do. As I said previously, my females are registered Therapy Dogs. My first one is IPO3, and I had not problems getting her registered. I stated up front on our cover letter that she is training is Schutzhund, which is tracking, obedience and protection, and went on to explain that the protection part is all about obedience. Each of my other 3 have had some foundation work done for protection. Just haven't had the access to clubs and helpers to go further.

Obedience and a good solid, stable temperament, as well as liking people, is key for a Therapy Dog. I am located in North Platte, Nebraska. If you have more questions about Therapy Dogs, and Alliance of Therapy Dogs (formerly Therapy Dogs, INC.) based in Cheyenne, WY, I am glad to help out.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My understanding has always been...with regard to service dogs but I think it applies...

It is a liability risk, not that a schH trained dog is more likely to bite someone, but if it did bite someone they might have a field day with you in court saying you had reasonable knowledge the dog would bite because it was trained to, then put in a public position as a service dog, they could potentially sue your pants off.

Whereas just some other dog who had not done bite work bites someone, they don't have the same leverage in court.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The way IPO(schutzhund) is now, it is completely based in obedience. The bitework phase as well. If the dog has an IPO title, it 'should' mean the dog is balanced in the brain and is controlling aggression through obedience/capping the drive state. 
I would think a titled IPO dog could be fine as a working service dog, SAR partner and a therapy dog. 
Gambits breeder put an IPO title on a male before donating him as a service dog for a PTSD vet. She wanted that title on him to prove he was stable/ sound and a dog that would be a good SD. He has proven himself over and over in his SD career. He is mostly a therapy dog, to help his handler to stay calm and diffuse anxiety/agitation level, yet he also alerts to other medical issues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Onyx girl I am sure what you are saying is true & makes perfect sense. But the potential for what it could *look* like to someone else is the problem. If that dog ever did do something it shouldn't. 

Too big a risk for some organizations, because heaven forbid that dog ever did bite someone its prior knowledge the dog would do that. (Not true but that is how it could be made to look in court)

At least that is how it was explained to me by a service dog trainer


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

In IPO the dog learns to bite sleeves, not humans.

That said, there is plenty of irrational prejudice against any protection sport. The prejudice is based entirely on lack of knowledge.

I know from experience that some SAR organizations will accept IPO dogs, others will not. I would suspect it's the same across the various therapy groups.

Insurance companies probably have the final word.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

One reason I encourage everyone to get a CGC (Canine Good Citizen) on their dog. Helps with insurance companies, and could also help in court, showing your dog has been trained and is good out in public settings.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

not therapy dogs but Service dogs and "protection work"
Protection training and service dogs | Service Dog Central

While the ADA does not prevent a person from doing protection training with their service dog, it also does not protect their choice to do so, and businesses may legally exclude a protection trained dog from their premises even if it is also trained as a service dog, as a direct threat.


When the Department revisited the regulatory language concerning the term "protection" starting in 2008, they received lots of feedback from the public expressing concerns about how people were interpreting "minimal protection" to include attack training, bite training, and threat training of service dogs. In their first Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (published in the Federal Register Volume 73, Number 117, Tuesday, June 17, 2008), the department related it's views on the issue of protection training in service dogs and protective service dogs.

"People have asserted, incorrectly, that use of such animals
is protected under the ADA. The Department reiterates that public
entities are not required to admit any animal that poses a direct
threat to the health or safety of others."


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