# Aggression toward a child? (LONG)



## Kim (Feb 1, 2009)

Last night myself, my husband and our 10-year old daughter went to a park for my daughter's swimming lesson. This is a state park with camping, trails, etc. We took our almost 2-year old neutered male GSD Carter along -- first time he'd been here.

For the first 45 mins of our visit, he was fine: excited and sniffing everything in sight, but well behaved, no barking, etc. We walked around the trails, I showed him the swimming pools, an area enclosed by chain link fence and filled with little kids and adults, then finally we all sat down in a shaded area about 50 feet from the pools. 

When my husband and daughter entered the enclosed area for her lesson, I brought Carter over, staying right behind the fence with my daughter and husband on the other side. At first, Carter was again fine, laid down next to me as we all chatted from opposite sides of the fence.

Then a child about 8-years old approached Carter and I, from the other side of the fence. "Hi doggie!" the kid says and Carter leaps up and barks. The kid then put his hands on the fence and leaned toward Carter and suddenly Carter lunges for him, barking and growling.

Here's how I reacted (it happened so fast!) and by all means, feel free to critique: I jerked him back (I use a Gentle Lead Harness as I can't control him fully on a regular collar and admittedly am not a big fan of pinch collars) telling him "NO!" and immediately put him in the "alpha dog rollover," which he submitted to easily. Then I stood up and got him out of there, fast. Once we got about 75 feet away, I put him in a down/stay and made him stay there for about five minutes. Then back to our original place, about 50 feet from the pool and again made him remain in a down/stay for about 5-10 mins. In a somewhat atypical manner for Carter, he didn't fight me on this -- and I've never really asked this of him before. 

Unfortunately, Carter hasn't had much exposure to kids: our daughter is a tall 10-year old and while he's been to a number of kid-related events (parades, Girl Scout meetings) these events aren't very often and with much time lapsing in between events. There's been times he's been surrounded by little kids and has behaved perfectly -- other times, he's become excited, barking, but no real "aggression."

ALSO: this spring we installed a chain link enclosure for him, directly off our back door, giving him a pretty large area to roam loose in. He seems to have a strong prey drive -- when ever he sees a cat, jogger, bird, even airplane (!), he will run and leap against the fence.

So here's my guess what happened:
1. He hasn't had a lot of exposure to kids.
2. The kid perhaps appeared to lunge at him -- or me -- when he put his hands on fence and perhaps Carter interpreted this as aggression on the child's part.
3. Possibly he's become conditioned to lunge at things he can't reach behind his own fence???

What do you guys think?
Could I have handled this better?
And most importantly, what can I do to teach him aggression towards kids is unacceptable?

(My tentative plan is to continue taking him back to this same park/swimming lesson every week -- AT A SAFE DISTANCE from children/the fence -- in order to keep exposing him to kids. Though, I have to admit, I'm not sure this is a good idea: as a parent myself, as a big part of me thinks he has *no* business around kids at this point, esp when so many of them want to pet him -- something I would have allowed before this incident, when and ONLY when I had a tight handle on him. But how else to get him used to kids?)

Thanks, all!
Kim and Carter


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

When he lunged at the child how was he behaving? Were his hackles up, tail wagging, etc?

Sometimes what some people think is aggression could also be fear. (I am by no means a pro on this, but how he was reacting can be a huge indicator as to what he was thinking)

When he is in the backyard fenced area has he ever been teased or taunted by people, kids?


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## Kim (Feb 1, 2009)

Danielle: it happened so fast. I'm pretty sure I heard him growl -- didn't have time to observe hackles. Could have been fear -- or protection, possibly, toward me? (The first few times I walked off and left him w/my husband/daughter during this outing, he cried like a baby -- likes to be with me. Another thing I'm trying to teach him: to accept me leaving him. After the third time, he seemed to accept this --he kept me in his vision, but quietly.)

And no, he's never been teased or taunted by people from behind his fence -- though on occasion, he's watched us/friends/kids in the yard and perhaps been frustrated that he couldn't join us. I try not to do this very often, however, exactly as I know it does frustrate him -- but sometimes (mowing the lawn,etc.), it does happen.

I'd say the baby skunks and the neighbor's cat that show up in our lawn, however, taunt him a WHOLE lot: never run away but stay out of his reach!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I would not consider this protection. Protection means an attempt to save you from a threat and a child is not a threat and if a dog considers it a danger than something is seriously wrong with the dog's head. Can be lack of socializing with kids too. 

In your situation I would correct the dog, move away, do down stays for much longer, I would praise him for being good, but I would not roll him over. What was the purpose of that? If it was a fear reaction than you just imprinted more fear into him. Also you corrected him with 'no'. 'No' what? What you expect him to do in the same situation in the future? Did you provide him an alternative behaviour? 

I would use 'Leave it' and 'No speak' the moment I started seeing him being uncomfortable around the child and the correction would come after he didn't respond to the commands. I would also train the commands separately, take him around playgrounds to socialize, use the commands, treat-treat-treat for behaving nicely.

Just a few thoughts. Your dog is still very young and still learning!


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## Kim (Feb 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07I would not consider this protection. Protection means an attempt to save you from a threat and a child is not a threat and if a dog considers it a danger than something is seriously wrong with the dog's head. Can be lack of socializing with kids too.


I'm trying hard not to take offense at this reply but to say something might be "seriously wrong with [my] dog's head" is a bit harsh, don't you think? Especially as you say yourself, a lack of socialization with kids could be the problem -- in this case, he _could _have interpreted a child as a threat, could he not? We humans know "a child is not a threat," but a dog who isn't used to them couldn't necessarily be expected to know this inherently.



> Originally Posted By: GSD07In your situation I would correct the dog, move away, do down stays for much longer, I would praise him for being good, but I would not roll him over. What was the purpose of that?


A fair question -- I felt a potential attack on a child was something that needed a drastic correction. I know the roll over is controversial -- I've heard trainers praise it and others shun it. In this case, I wanted to give him a very clear "Oh no you DID NOT JUST ATTEMPT TO ATTACK A CHILD!!!" message. 

When you say you would have "correct" the dog, what sort of correction would you have used? And after he kept his down/stay for the 5-10 mins, I did indeed praise him and we left the area for a walk back on the trails as a reward.



> Originally Posted By: GSD07If it was a fear reaction than you just imprinted more fear into him.


Yikes -- point taken. I would not have wanted that! Again, how would you have corrected him, say when he first lunged at the child thru the fence?



> Originally Posted By: GSD07Also you corrected him with 'no'. 'No' what? What you expect him to do in the same situation in the future? Did you provide him an alternative behaviour?


Hmmm. "No," admittedly was more of a reaction on my part then anything. He knows "Enough!" when we wish for him to cease a certain behavior, although he doesn't always obey. Probably I should have used "Enough" at the very least. What would you suggest for an alternative behavior?



> Originally Posted By: GSD07I would use 'Leave it' and 'No speak' the moment I started seeing him being uncomfortable around the child and the correction would come after he didn't respond to the commands. I would also train the commands separately, take him around playgrounds to socialize, use the commands, treat-treat-treat for behaving nicely.


"Leave it" is once we're still working on. Will work on this more, for certain!



> Originally Posted By: GSD07Just a few thoughts. Your dog is still very young and still learning!


True -- and thanks!


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I think he was scared

The child should have asked for permission to come near the dog in the first place
Yes he is still young take him more places socialize and train the best thing for him


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07I would not consider this protection. Protection means an attempt to save you from a threat and a child is not a threat and if a dog considers it a danger than something is seriously wrong with the dog's head.


Ummm, NO. To many dogs, anything that is not normal is a threat. Kids are anything but normal. They move funny, are extremely unpredictable and are just plain wierd at times. Many dogs have issues with kids. In order to have a dog that is well mannered around kids carefully planned and managed socialization and training needs to happen. Can you luck into a dog that just naturally is great with kids? Sure, but it's not the norm. It was not the case with any dogs I've owned and it sure is not the norm with GSD's.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kim, please don't take offense, I didn't mean to offend your dog or you. At this point he's is truly still learning to control his impulses and you are working with him so nothing is wrong with him. 

What I meant to say that forget about the word protection and just work on socializing. I am very sensitive to this word because I recently see too many owners with lunging and growling GSD puppies who claim that their dog is protecting them and there is nothing what they can do about this GSD nature. So I guess I just vented on you, it's obviously not your case



Kim said:


> Again, how would you have corrected him, say when he first lunged at the child thru the fence?[/guote]
> I am very careful to make my correction fair and also make sure that my dog is crystal clear why he is corrected. I am extremely careful with physical corrections (I do use prong collar but I can handle my dog on a flat collar too) when it's somehting related to children and other dogs because I'm afraid to set the wrong association. That's why I want to give a certain command first and then correct for disobedience. In this case I'm not sure if your dog associated correction with the lunging at a child or the child himself.
> 
> What I do in such situations (and I worked with fearful Yana who was lunging at everything that resembled a living creature, and with Anton who was and still is a little dog reactive) is I place myself between the percieved threat and my dog (body block), say 'Leave it', and start moving towards my dog not letting him move around me and get to the object of his attention.
> ...


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Still not positive it is agression. IF the child lunged toward the fence, it could of startled him and his first response was to protect you/warn the child. It is hard to really say.

I would definitely try to increase his socialization with children, (maybe relatives or friends of your daughter) but make sure it is a very controlled environment. Leash him, put him in a down stay, and have your daughter initiate the petting. giving lots of treats for him behaving during might also help. Make sure he associates children with a very positive experience.

Not sure if you have taken him for training or not, but that might help also.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> Sure, but it's not the norm. It was not the case with any dogs I've owned and it sure is not the norm with GSD's.


John, I understand what you are saying. But for me non-socialized GSD is NOT the norm. For me non-socialized GSD is screwed up and let down by his owners and is not considered NORMAL. Non-socialized GSD needs to be rehabilitated and returned to the NORM. Non-socialized GSD is not a protector, he's a liability. That's my personal opinion.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

<span style="color: #000066">I know my dog is a different dog behind a fence than he is when people are in the yard. If he's behind the fence - his or anyone else's, he barks at whatever/whoever is on the other side, unless he knows them. Once we let the people in the yard - painters, landscapers, etc., he's fine. 

My dog has had almost no exposure to kids, so I tend to keep him away from them (we don't have kids and none of our friends or relatives do either), but it might just be the fence thing that set him off. Not saying that makes it acceptable, just that the fence could bring out the "territorialness" in him, even though it wasn't the fence in your own yard. 

I've been putting myself between Kaiser and our fence to distract him from whatever or whoever he's barking at and that seems to be helping a bit. But I know in your case everything happened so quickly that all you could do is react. </span>


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Kim,

A few things going on here. First off you were behind a fence. Barrier aggression is very very common in dogs. I have a male that will wag his tail while out and about on leash at virtually everything and everyone (unless on a protection field). Take that same dog and put him behind a barrier (crate or fence) much less his own fence and he almost loses all of his brains. He's getting better and better, but it's work. Now, Carter has begun to form a pattern along fences since he's doing it at home. Why should it not show up behind a different fence at the park? Same picture to dog, same reaction. Second - STOP ALPHA ROLLING YOUR DOG. Best case your dog will think that you are an unfair bully and not understand what you are trying to "teach" him with the action. Worst case you will get bit because your dog fears for his life and he has developed into a strong confident adult. Read this thread for a better in depth explanation http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719180&page=1#Post719180

Now, what to do? Take a step back and work with him. Work on recalling him from the fence, and do not allow him to fence fight with anything. Amp up the socialization and actual interaction with young children. Learn to understand his body language so you can stop him before lunging or reacting in the future. A good trainer is always a great idea. A trainer that teaches you to alpha roll your dog is NOT A GOOD TRAINER fyi. 

Good luck!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07John, I understand what you are saying. But for me non-socialized GSD is NOT the norm. For me non-socialized GSD is screwed up and let down by his owners and is not considered NORMAL. Non-socialized GSD needs to be rehabilitated and returned to the NORM. Non-socialized GSD is not a protector, he's a liability. That's my personal opinion.


I absolutely see where you are coming from, and agree 100% on how you socialized your dogs with kids. I work very hard at it as well, and cannot stress enough how important it is. But when you have so many just plain irresponsible BAD breeders out there putting dogs in homes with bad genetics to begin with, and you match those up with owners that do not understand the amount of training and socializing a dog (much less a weak nerved dog) needs you get what we have. LOTS AND LOTS OF WEAK NERVED POORLY TRAINED AND UNDER SOCIALIZED GSD'S OUT THERE. Unfortunately it's pretty close to normal. Sad, but normal. 

Now, I'm not saying that's the case with the OP. She is obviously working hard on training (with the down stays and such) and reached out for help when she came across something that confused her. All I'm saying is that reaction (especially with the fence where it was) is not the most surprising thing in the world!


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## Kim (Feb 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07I am very sensitive to this word because I recently see too many owners with lunging and growling GSD puppies who claim that their dog is protecting them and there is nothing what they can do about this GSD nature. So I guess I just vented on you, it's obviously not your case


No offense taken -- and thanks for clearing that up! Yes, I agree: whereas GSD are known for their protective traits, I could certainly see how folks could allow some sorts of understandable behavior out of laziness, etc. and simply say "Oh, we can't help it." In that case, they are doing the dog no favors, are they? 

THANK YOU for the rest of your advice -- most helpful!
Thank you to everyone else also: Dawn, John, Danielle, and "Ray's mom." Some excellent advice here! (And I very much do think the fence had something to do with his behavior: only a month ago he was surrounded by 5 toddlers happily throwing grass on him and Carter just laid there and soaked it up like an old pro.)

Logging off now to get some work done -- which includes working with Carter. (Just boiled a bunch of beef for "treats." Don't know 'bout you GSD owners, but mine is the King of Sensitive Stomach. I can't treat him with much of the store-bought stuff out there or he has diarrhea -- no fun.)

Coming back later to read this all again before working with him.
Thanks again!
Kim and Carter


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:First off you were behind a fence. Barrier aggression is very very common in dogs.


Soooo true. I always said that anyone breaking into my house had better come in the front door b/c da Vinci, my 1st Irish Wolfhound, was a jerk about the stupid fence. Many things contributed to the problem, but it was clearly in his genetic code & I didn't catch it developing until it was full blown ugly. Unfortunately (or not!) he was fine with close friends & family at the fence so I couldn't use myself to train him away from the behavior. 



> Quote:Can you luck into a dog that just naturally is great with kids? Sure, but it's not the norm. It was not the case with any dogs I've owned and _it sure is not the norm with GSD's_.


That surprises me. I'd expect that a flock dog would be naturally inclined to *understand* & tolerate children. I know this isn't necessarily the norm with all breeds, & should never be assumed for any individual dog, but it's something I'd think was expected, even demanded, from a well bred GSD.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was thinking barrier aggression too. 

At home, I would limit the time your dog is loose in your fenced yard. He should never be able to lunge at the fence when joggers or anything else is going by. It kind of increases the barrier aggressiveness to allow him this type of behavior. So I would go out with the dog and the minute he starts this stuff, bring him in. 

Children are a toughie but as you have a child, it is that much more important for you to ensure that your dog is solid around kids. I do not have much advice as to get there. Management for sure, and socialization in such a way that the kids involved are safe. 

Good luck.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Kim:



> Quote:I'm trying hard not to take offense at this reply but to say something might be "seriously wrong with [my] dog's head" is a bit harsh, don't you think? Especially as you say yourself, a lack of socialization with kids could be the problem -- in this case, he could have interpreted a child as a threat, could he not? We humans know "a child is not a threat," but a dog who isn't used to them couldn't necessarily be expected to know this inherently.


Try first of all try not to misinterpret what was said. I have been in your shoes and I *definitely* thought there was something wrong with my dog's head. Humans and dogs see & perceive things differently and so many of us forget this constantly. It's one of the reasons we wind up with so many dogs being euthanized when they shouldn't be. The comment made here is right on ... we as humans just expect a dog to see & understand like we do. It doesn't work that way.

Carter's reaction was not appropriate IN YOUR EYES and the eyes of probably all humans. In HIS eyes it may have been very appropriate. You have no way of knowing what he saw or perceived to cause him to react the way he did.These are the times I really wish dogs could talk and tell us what the **** happened so that we could react appropriately.

I'm going to sound like a broken record but I'm not going to quit spreading the word either. To many dogs die because people don't know to or don't bother to check for medical reasons their dogs go aggressive and/or bite someone.

I would have Carter's thyroid checked. One of the symptoms of Hypothyroidism is innappropriate, abherent, aggressive behavior with children. Just because he behaved the way he did doesn't mean he's got thyroid dysfunction, but it CAN mean that's what's going on. No matter what you do to train or correct him, it won't do any good if his thyroid is not working right.

There are stickies and posts on thyroid issues in many places on the boards. I would have the vet do the blood draw but send the blood to Hemopet for testing. I myself will not trust a local lab, these people are the best in the country, this is what they do.

http://www.hemopet.org 

It's not expensive either. 

There have been some nice big changes in my male after we found out he's got Hypothyroidism (not to be confused with Hyperthyroidism) and put him on the medication. It's a supplement to give the dog what the thyroid is suppoed to be but not giving him. 

After you find out if the thyroid is contributing to the problem and deal with that if necessary, then you can work on proper behavior. In the meantime, I would keep him away from children. Even at what you might consider a safe distance .. how safe is that distance if the leash or collar breaks? Don't think for one second that can't happen, either.

We will probably never let our male get close to children because of the way he reacted to them in the past. The thyroid meds have made a big difference, but my assuming he'll be find w/kids now just because the meds made him better could be suicide for my dog and financial disaster and heartache for us. I could not live with myself if my dog injured anyone, but especially a child. It would not take but an instant for him to inflict severe injury or worse on a small child. He seems fine with kids over about 6yrs old, it's the littler ones he doesn't do well with. But then they are more at eye level .. guess what? 

Some dogs take direct eye contact as a confrontation. My Riley is the same way. If that kid stared into Carter's eyes, that would explain it, too.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> 
> 
> > Quote:Can you luck into a dog that just naturally is great with kids? Sure, but it's not the norm. It was not the case with any dogs I've owned and _it sure is not the norm with GSD's_.
> ...


Well, there is the ability to stand on leash near a child and tolerate them, and then there's the ability to have heavy interaction with a child off leash. There's a massive difference there, and the latter takes much socialization and conditioning. Think about how a dog instinctually acts around other living beings at his eye level. His genetic impulses need to be muted a bit around kids. It just takes some work, and it is by far the easiest to do when the dog is a puppy because you can easily control them physically while still keeping everything positive resulting in a crystal clear message to puppy - if you are calm and respect the childs space then children are sources of great fun and joy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think you can luck into a dog that's naturally great with kids. We don't have kids and the few friends that do we don't see often and their kids are mostly older, so Dena was not really socialized with them. She did see kids of all ages at off leash parks that we took her to every weekend from 4 months old but there wasn't a lot of interaction with them. 

She loved people in general and was always bad about jumping into the air in front of them to give kisses, (this was something that we were never able to totally break her of), but was very good about not jumping on kids. That could simply be because they were already at head level so she didn't need to jump to lick their faces, I don't know, but she really lit up around kids, and was always very gentle. 

She was an incorrigible baby kisser - whenever we passed babies in strollers she'd lean over and lick the little hands and feet that were sticking out. I have no idea where this came from, but she seemed to have a natural infinity for children and seemed especially joyous when they were around.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A common problem with parents and with owners of dogs - all dogs, not just GSDs - is that they have a hard time being objective when it comes to a loved one. 

Temperament IS genetic. One pup in a litter can pick up a gene from a dog in the background that no other pup carries and has some characteristic from THAT dog. It happens. Good tempered dogs are NOT MADE. They are born that way. Socializing and working on exposure can help one wtih a less than 100% temperament - or just make one that much better whose temperament is genetically sound.

One of the first articles I remember reading about European breeding practices had a comment....a verbatim statement

"any dog who showed it's teeth or growled at a child did not see the next sunrise" 

Aggression towards children - for any reason - was not tolerated. Today, we save and rescue every dog with a problem. Today, our breed is becoming more and more at risk due to weak tempered dogs. 

Whether it is a lack of familiarity, a lack of training - whatever - yes, you can work to condition the dog to children - but - please be OBJECTIVE. You cite that the dog is stressed if you leave him with family members???? This is not a temperment of soundness....I am NOT trying to hurt your feelings, but owners of dogs with fear aggression, uncontrollable aggression, fearful of environments etc. need to understand they did not do anything wrong in training, that it is ok to love these dogs, but it is the dogs genetic nature! You have a problem here, and need to not make excuses for the dog, but to condition the dog with knowledge and objectivity that the dog is unsound - maybe 10% maybe 50%. 

I am sorry if you are offended. I do not mean to offend you. But to succeed in fixing an issue, you must understand what and why you have an issue - and get help to fix it if you want to continue to take this dog in public or have him around people.

I would hope you will get some professional help. Get rid of the halti and make life black and white for the dog - make it very clear what is acceptable. His life depends on that clarity.

Good luck. 

Lee


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I also think there is a HUGE difference between a dog that is just not aggressive towards children, and a dog that is well MANNERED around children when off leash. Just because aggression is not an issue does not mean a dog is what parents would call "good with children". A dog of sound temperament that is not aggressive at all towards children still may not respect the child's space, learn to avoid them on the way to other places as opposed to plowing through them, curb their prey drive and NOT chase or get mouthy when the 3 year old goes running and screaming past them with their arms flailing about, play gently and not body check them, etc. None of my GSD's have displayed one bit of "aggression" towards children, but all of them had to be taught manners around them.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have and have had dogs who never saw a child until they were adults...and loved kids...my Kelsey adored kids, would not leave a child's side if one was around - 1st time she saw them was when a secretary brought her 3 girls to our office - Kelsey was maybe 3 years old....she stayed with the kids the whole time they were there...Csabre loves kids - never has been around them at all and they can pummel her and hug her and she is great...same with Basha....My older male does not adore kids, he will politely let them pet him, but does not like being hugged...he lifts his head and nose as far as he can and rolls his eyes....but has not shown a tooth at all...I avoid the possiblity of him interacting with them - of course, he does not like an adult mauling him either...he only seeks out people if they have a toy/stick or he thinks they will throw the one he has. Otherwise, people don't exist.

Lee


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

First of all, I did not read all of the posts completely,so, if I am repeating what anyone else said already, I will ask you to excuse me.
As for what took place. First thing you need to understand is dogs. So, if I were you I would find someone who understands German Shepherds and also understands aggression to help you understand your dog and also to help you to understand how your behavior can and will affect things. The fence is a biggie, like a couple of people already mentioned. Many dogs are much more aggressive when they are behind a fence. In fact, many people who train protection dogs and want to bring out more aggression will use a fence to do just that. You should not be introducing a young dog to anything from behind a fence..and yes I realize you did not plan what happened but in the future, you will need to recognize situatuions that might trigger this insecurity in your dog.

Second, your behavior after it happened was completely inappropriate but that's kind of normal. Most people over-react and send the exact WRONG message to their dog after something like that happens. You have to be more aware of what is happening around you, or what could provoke your dog, and like I said, people approaching from the other side of a fence is just one of those things you need to understand may incite a reaction from your dog.

If this were my dog, I would stop taking him places until I had done some very good obedience work with him. Then, I would start to introduce things to him using the obedience he had learned. Each time he is introduced to a new situation, he should be asked to sit. If he breaks the sit to bark for example, he is corrected for not sitting. None of this "leave it" stuff, simply repeat the word sit and make sure he does it. All of this should be done in the most calm and matter of fact fashion that you can muster so that YOU don't rattle your dog and create even more insecurity in him. The dog looks to you to get an idea of what a situation is, so, if you get upset or nervous, expect to see a bigger reaction from your dog. 
It is up to you to direct the people or control the situation he is placed in so that he can learn that he is safe when he is sitting and behaving himself. Since he is a young dog, he may need to be reminded to sit, (with a calm and unconcerned sit command), as the distractions, people other dogs etc, get closer. This does three things for the dog. First the obedience is telling him what it is you expect him to do in these situations. Second, your calmness will help him to remain calm and third, it builds confidence because he must stay sitting and not bark or lunge or show all the behaviors that accompany his insecurity. So, he learns that he doesn't HAVE to do those behaviors to stay safe. That is what the dog is trying to do, he is trying to protect himself when he is feeling insecure, so, he shows whatever he is viewing as the threat, that he is a tough guy and to leave him alone. The kid on the other side of the fence was actually doing things that HE should not have been doing. He kept coming and put his hands of the fence after the dog had "warned" him. That created even more insecurity in the dog and the situation escalated. It is up to you as the handler to tell people to stop advancing on your dog and to stay out of his space. People have a nasty habit of coming into the space of strange dogs and this kid did exactly that. He ignored what the dog was trying to tell him with the bark and kept coming toward you.

The most important thing in all this is your behavior. You simply must remain calm and in control of your emotions when you are handing your dog. Attacking your own dog after the kid there completely rattled him, is just not fair or reasonable but it is very common. People get upset or embarrassed when their dog behaves that way and feel like they simply MUST do something and they usually make a big display of it, so people know they didn't like what their dog did. Again, it is not the right thing to do and as was already mentioned, the Alpha roll crap is just that. It is one of the dumber things that has ever been introduced to the world of dogs and training. 
You also cannot be asleep at the wheel and then try to adjust things AFTER the dog has reacted. This is a case where you must be pro-active and see what is around you, so you can tell your dog how to behave BEFORE someone does something stupid around him. Sorry, kid or not, that was just dumb what that child did. Not everything is the dog's fault, some people are simply idiots around animals and yes, they are animals and will behave like animals if something disturbs them enough.

These types of problems are the number one thing I deal with with a huge majority of my obedience clients. I can tell you that there are dogs with temperament issues and they are more reactive to things around them but, almost 100% of the time, their owners have made the problem fifty times worse than it had to be, with their own nervous, out of control behavior. If you want to be in control of the dog, you have to be in control of yourself. So, you have to be calm, cool and collected and have the presence of mind to tell the dog how to behave before he makes that choice. It never works out well for anyone when the dog is left to make the decision and just putting a dog in a situation and watching him react to it, is not training nor is it the proper way to socialize. They need direction from you to help them become more confident. Even dogs with the best temperament benefit when their handlers are doing their part. 

Again, now you have had the bad experience and since you are human, you will probably get a little nervous or tense the next time someone approaches you and your dog. You simply must try not to do that and the best way to accomplish that is to tell your dog to sit and to take control of things before they escalate. This includes instructing the people approaching you as well. 

If you can, find an obedience trainer who also understands how to train a dog in protection. I can tell you from personal experience that when you know how to make a dog aggressive, you can see very easily, how people do it by accident. It is not that hard to correct if you are someone who can spend a little time learning about animal behavior and also about your own behavior and the impact it can have on your dog.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends on the dog.

Baer loved everyone, especially babies. He was the one that did therapy work at the Ronald McDonald House and was sch titled!

Drigon loved Gabor and no other men. Could not care less and would ignore them. Drigon was the alpha dog and a few WUSV helpers were very wary of him; he hit the body in the work. VERY serious, etc. But, excellent with small dogs, women and children.

All our current dogs are excellent with adults and children. Gabor’s Enzo is the only one that is friendly, but aloof. Even as civil and fight driven as he is on the field, adults and kids can walk up to him or by his crate with no issue. But, we do not depend on our 5 year old and possibly a few kids at their club – we take them out and put them in situations where we can see the true temperament, not a reaction.

Exposure is critical for any dog to different situations, different field, etc. When I was not married and did not have a child, I would make sure that it was one of the things that I exposed my dog to. Socializing was not just going to the familiar places – it was going to the park, going to the outside malls, lots of distractions and lots of kids (different ages and behaviors).

Good or questionable temperament, no matter which one, need LOTS of exposure, socializing – you need to see how the dog really reacts. You need to be honest about how your dog is from a genetic and temperament standpoint. 

Dogs that stressy/nervy are the ones that can go ballistic when people/children go by, whether fence, crate or just walking.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Anne, I agree with your post completely. Except that I consider 'leave it' an obedience command and train it. 

The only thing I wanted to add is that's important to realize that everything that you say a dog owner needs to do when taking their dogs to public places takes time to master to the level it will be natural, automatic and properly timed. 

It will take time to learn the dog, his triggers, his reactions, his limitations, his threasholds, and act approprietly. It will take time to learn not to be embarrased with the dogs behaviour but deal with it and stand behind your dog, and be proactive, calm and fair. To realize that being a leader is a huge responsibily to the dog and not just a priviledge and God given right.

I'm saying this so Kim doesn't feel bad or discouraged.

It's being three years I'm actively involved in training and behaviour modification and I'm still at the beginning of my journey. Thanks so much to you, experienced dog owners, trainers and breeders, for sharing your hard earned knowledge!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86Exposure is critical for any dog to different situations, different field, etc. When I was not married and did not have a child, I would make sure that it was one of the things that I exposed my dog to. Socializing was not just going to the familiar places – it was going to the park, going to the outside malls, lots of distractions and lots of kids (different ages and behaviors).
> 
> Good or questionable temperament, no matter which one, need LOTS of exposure, socializing – you need to see how the dog really reacts. You need to be honest about how your dog is from a genetic and temperament standpoint.


Exactly. Just like titles on the field gain knowledge of a dogs working ability, socialization gains knowledge of a dogs livability.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Anne, I agree with your post completely. Except that I consider 'leave it' an obedience command and train it.


I could be wrong, but my opinion is that I don't like the leave it command. At all. I feel it's reactive, while asking for a different behavior before an incident happens is ACTIVE. You are taking the pressure off of the dog and taking ownership of the environment, which is all your dog really wants you to do anyway. You can start this simply by teaching a look command. After you do that, every time you see a stress signal in your dog ask the dog to look at you. Mark it reward it and keep on doing it. Soon it will become a pattern behavior. Dog feels stress, looks at you. Now you have the ability to break attention when something causes stress. Now you can ask for a behavior - sit as Anne suggested. Instead of yanking on a leash after the dog lights up I've conditioned the dog to look at me and then sit resulting in built confidence and proper social behavior.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Anne, I agree with your post completely. Except that I consider 'leave it' an obedience command and train it.
> 
> The only thing I wanted to add is that's important to realize that everything that you say a dog owner needs to do when taking their dogs to public places takes time to master to the level it will be natural, automatic and properly timed.
> 
> ...


Yes, because socialization isn't just about exposing the dog to new things, it's reading their reactions, then adjusting, and maybe not adjusting for the thing you thought was a negative trigger (hey, it wasn't the hat, it was the sunglasses), then adjusting again, and doing it all while trying to stay calm and hoping that you are in some way getting it right and that you are communicating with your dog well without screwing up the relationship you have with them. All the while someone keeps dropping people doing weird things, and other animals in as tests, when you have not studied for those exam items yet! 

That is one reason why I am willing to go ridiculously slow. It's as much for me as it is for the dog. If we can get the basics down, if I can read them well, I can anticipate and prevent. Then when ready, nail those things that we would have trouble on. 

That's the plan anyway! And we all know about the best plans...

I have also found that going to training classes for as long as you need to, to learn your dogs' language and they yours, helps a lot.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> I could be wrong, but my opinion is that I don't like the leave it command. At all. I feel it's reactive, while asking for a different behavior before an incident happens is ACTIVE. ......


Great approach, I only wish it would be so simple and straight forward with every dog. This method didn't work with Yana at all, she was under pressure the moment we were stepping out of the door, there were no need to look for the stress signals. The level of her obedience didn't matter because when she was under stress she was shutting down immediately and the only solution was removing her from the situation.

For a long time I worked with her just on establishing mutual trust and respect, and teaching her that the world was not a scary place. What worked for us was 'Look at that' game. I didn't ask for a focus anymore, I didn't ask for any obedience, I asked for just looking at the threat and for not reacting for a few seconds and I treated and praised heavily. 

Then I labeled this exercise with 'leave it'. It meant that she could watch as much as she wanted but not move and not bark. I was working with her everywhere, everyday, in all situations that she could ever find herself, gradually increasing distraction. I took her to classes but I made my own Yana's behaviour modification program based on many sources because I refused to cater to her fears and I refused to follow local trainers and a behaviourist advice that was a quick fix but could ruin (and already started doing that) the foundation of trust I was building for a couple of years. 

After months and months of 'look at that' and 'leave it' in all kinds of places and situations she started offering me focus on her own, without my asking for it. I say 'leave it' ahead of time, she looks at me, I say good girl. There is no pop on any collar, it's not needed. 

Yana is now perfectly fine on a flat collar, she's very responsive, can be taken everywhere, she looks for direction, she TRUSTS the handler. She is reliable off leash, rock solid off leash recall from anything, she will come to my side when unsure. She is a great dog, weak nerves are still there but she can be managed and live a long happy life of a pet. I do not regret all the work and time I put into her because I was rewarded for that just by seeing her coming out of her shell and enjoying to be alive. And be alive because she would have to be put down otherwise. The ironic thing was that we never bonded, we had more like doctor/patient relationship, but it's a different story. 

I work with Anton the same way, not because he wouldn't respond to the traditional redirection method but because it's just so natural for me to train the Yana way. We walk, his ears are going up and towards the dog we approach, or squirrel, I say 'Aack, leave it', he looks at me and we continue on our tracks. I don't see any reason putting him in a sit and emphasize the importance of every dog or a person we meet.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

Heidi, my husband, and I stayed in my in-law's RV while they were in the area over the July 4th weekend. Heidi did really well with the in-laws and their three shitzus (amazingly!), but I was so disheartened and upset when Heidi cowered and then growled at two young girls who came up and wanted to pet her. Heidi wagged her tail, but at the same time, she shrank back and then quietly growled when one of the girls looked at her and approached. Heidi doesn't like it when people she doesn't know look into her eyes. And I've discovered that it's very hard to get people not to do that!

Heidi was definitely more fearful than usual being in different surroundings. What we do with her (and it seems to work) is have really good treats on hand and make her do things like sit, shake, bow, etc., and then give her the treats. It seems to distract her from being scared. In this case, doing her repertoire of tricks definitely took the edge off Heidi and the little girls loved it (and we didn't even have any treats at the time!)

Since she's a rescue dog and we don't know her history (plus, the fact that she's weak nerved), I would never completely trust her with a child. Then again, she was really good with a niece and nephew we saw recently (toddlers), but I kept an eagle eye on her the whole time.

It seems like there are quite a few GSDs with these kind of issues. It makes me wonder if it's a little more common in the breed because of their protective, yet aloof, nature. In any case, we owners with dogs like this just have to work harder. It sounds like it can be done and it's hugely important to help your dog overcome these problems.

Best of luck to Kim (and all of us!)


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Yana is now perfectly fine on a flat collar, she's very responsive, can be taken everywhere, she looks for direction, she TRUSTS the handler. She is reliable off leash, rock solid off leash recall from anything, she will come to my side when unsure.


This is a HUGE accomplishment, Oksana, and I can only imagine how much work was spent getting to this point. I hope that someday I can say the same about Heidi!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KarinSince she's a rescue dog and we don't know her history (plus, the fact that she's weak nerved), I would never completely trust her with a child. Then again, she was really good with a niece and nephew we saw recently (toddlers), but I kept an eagle eye on her the whole time.
> 
> It seems like there are quite a few GSDs with these kind of issues. It makes me wonder if it's a little more common in the breed because of their protective, yet aloof, nature. In any case, we owners with dogs like this just have to work harder. It sounds like it can be done and it's hugely important to help your dog overcome these problems.



Kudos to you and everyone who takes on a problematic dog. It is not their fault that they are fearful or have issues generally.... HOWEVER - I find it very disturbing that many people are complacent and even feel it is common to expect temperament problems in this breed. 

This can only be brought under control if buyers will insist on buying dogs from breeders who are knowledgable; when they stop saying "I don't want to spend xxx - I just want a pet - I don't want a show dog" and when buyers stop supporting BYB selling constantly in the Sunday paper for $300 - when the market dries up for cute puppies no matter that mom is growling at visitors from under the coffee table...

Not saying every titled dog is perfect - heck, I have seen dogs who have been to multiple World events run from a helper on a field practicing for a koer class a few weeks afterwards! Training CAN and does cover alot! But soundness can be much better judged with OBJECTIVE breeders who understand that not every dog is perfect, but what characteristics MUST be avoided, what combinations can give you problems, and acknowledging that poor temperament starts with poor tempered parents/grandparents. No dog IS perfect, but social temperament is primary in producing good dogs for work or companions. A sound minded poor hipped dog can lead a happy fulfilling life as a companion, while a fear aggressive dog with OFA Excellent is a disaster waiting to happen!

Lee


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

I meant to add that it makes me wonder if it's inherent to the breed, OR if these problems are more prevalent in badly bred dogs (which it sounds like they are). I will probably always get a rescue dog myself, but if I were to buy one, I would do tons of research and a good, sound temperament would be of the utmost importance. I know there can be no guarantees, but it sounds like you have a much better chance when the puppy comes from a long line of good-tempered dogs.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

And that's what it comes down to. If you do not want to spend a decent amount of money on a dog or puppy - RESCUE. If you are going to buy a puppy - do not go to a freaking pet store or get a dog from an ad in the paper or Craigs List. A well bred puppy that has been raised correctly for the first 10 weeks of his life is a dream to own and train.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

It can be specific lines as well or combination of lines. Some lines genetics are very strong and dominant. Dogs that are stable no matter where they are at, on a trial field (everything strange), bad weather, reactive other dogs, traveling in crates (some freak out).

Gabor got Drigon when he was 6 mos. Driggy was not really socialized, etc. Grew up straight in a kennel. Breeder wanted to keep him for competition for himself. His brother Dreschler was sold to Jenny (boyfriend is Jogi - aka Fabio that Lisa and Angela were commenting about the other year ). Dreschler was socialized, taken everywhere,etc from the time that they got him. When Gabor got Drigon at 6 months, he did the normal things that they do there - dog on the buses, trains; things that would freak out some handlers in the US.

We worked dogs for 10 days after the 2003 WUSV in Germany, traveling throughout Germany and the Netherlands. Both males are dominant, one person dogs. Aloof, love women and children. Men are just OK. Not dog aggressive or nervy - just the ALPHA dog. Grips that bruised the arms of the helpers through the sleeves. 
Stable temperament.

Enzo same way, but was raised by a family for the 1st 6 months. 

Genetics do show through - in the temperament, the reactions, the grips (elbows or canines for avoidance), the yawning, head tilts, etc.
Lot of subtle keys that can take years of learning, training with an open mind.


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