# Aggressive behavior with newborn baby



## brebrehj

My newborn is close to 2 weeks old. My 1 year old GSD is super sweet and gentle with the baby. My 4 year old GSD goes crazy when in the same room with him. He tries to root the baby with his nose and barks at him. He goes crazy trying to get to the baby. We've tried having me hold the baby while my sister stands by his side just in case. We've tried my sister holding the baby while I stand by his side. The "introductions" end with him being pulled back and having a wild look in his eye that is difficult to read, that I have only seen when he sees a cat.
Has anyone else experienced this or have any info or tips on how to get him to calm down and accept the new family member? 

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## TinkerinWstuff

Have you considered consulting with a trainer? You realize the risks here right?


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## gsdsar

You really really need to get a professional into your home to evaluate and discover the root of your dogs aggression/insecurity with the baby. You need to do this tomorrow. No waiting. 

I don't want to sound harsh, but your babies security is paramount. And someone needs to actually see the interaction to determine the cause and recommend if it can be fixed. 

No one on this board is qualified to help you based on a web posting. This situation is possibly too dangerous for internet help. Sorry. 

Good luck and congrats on the baby!!!


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## DaniFani

This is way to dangerous a situation to be getting advice on the internet...the fact that you went to the internet, let the dog get close enough to "root" the baby, and have "pulled him away...barking.." I can't tell you what I would have done to that dog. Please rehome him if you don't get a trainer immediately. Even if you do get a trainer, rehoming would still be my number 1 suggestion. I would never trust that dog again...just wait until the INFANT (that does not move right now) starts moving. It takes an instant. Have you ever seen a wild dog/wolf/coyote kill a cat or rabbit...it is just a second.


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## sparra

Keep the dog away from your baby and seak help immediately.
I am not sure I could ever trust a dog like this around a little one.


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## David Winners

Keep them 100% separated. Get a trainer, a good one, and be prepared to re home the dog or keep them separated for years. Wild eyed crazy prey behavior could lead to very bad things with an infant.



David Winners


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## llombardo

That is certainly behavior I wouldn't want to see. I don't know if it's aggression as much as prey drive, imagine when the baby starts crawling? Has this dog ever been around kids ? I would also consult a trainer ASAP.


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## SunCzarina

David Winners said:


> Keep them 100% separated. Get a trainer, a good one, and be prepared to re home the dog or keep them separated for years. Wild eyed crazy prey behavior could lead to very bad things with an infant.


^ this. 

what happens when your baby starts crawling? What happens when the baby starts walking? Are you going to be able to keep them separated and what kind of life is that for your dog? Or for you with all that management. 

Get a trainer in the house with your dog and your baby or prepare to rehome the dog. There's no quick internet solution to this serious problem.


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## nktigger99

Call a trainer NOW!!! That dog should not be anywhere near the baby. 

I honestly would be rehoming the dog....no questions......

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## LeCielEstRouge

Oh gosh, I am by no means an expert but I wouldn't be able to keep a dog like that around my child if it displayed such behavior. I'm sure you love your dog as we all love ours, but the baby is now the priority in this situation. I would keep them separated until you can have a professional come and evaluate, but prepare for the worst. So sorry!


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## brebrehj

I will contact his trainer. I was just curious if others have gone through this and what they ultimately had to do.
He has only been introduced to the baby the two times. When Thor is in the house I close the door to the hallway where the bedrooms are and the door to baby boys room. When the baby and I are in common areas of the house Thor goes outside. 
It's just baffling to me because he has always been so good with my other 2 boys I figured he would be with the baby as well. 
Of course my ultimate concern is for the safety of my newborn. I would hate to re home him. But if it comes to that I will to ensure that my little guy is okay. Ideally I would just give him to my ex husband so there would still be a family tie to him, I love Thor so incredibly much but I dunno if I can wait another year while he (the ex) is deployed. 
Grrrrrr.

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## Oisin's Aoire

What others have said. If the infant is triggering his prey drive you need to get a trainer in there ASAP. Even if you vow to keep them safely separated accidents happen especially when other kids are involved..if he accidentally gets out and gets to the baby ..horror type stuff. 

Is there is any friend with no little kids that can watch him while you schedule a visit from the trainer?


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## brebrehj

Oisin's Aoire said:


> What others have said. If the infant is triggering his prey drive you need to get a trainer in there ASAP. Even if you vow to keep them safely separated accidents happen especially when other kids are involved..if he accidentally gets out and gets to the baby ..horror type stuff.
> 
> Is there is any friend with no little kids that can watch him while you schedule a visit from the trainer?


I too fear thor accidentally getting to the baby.
Unfortunately I don't have anyone who could take him in until the trainer shows up.

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## sparra

brebrehj said:


> I too fear thor accidentally getting to the baby.
> Unfortunately I don't have anyone who could take him in until the trainer shows up.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If it were me I wouldn't let him inside the house. Keep him outside till you can get help. I didn't realise you had other young children.....makes things harder to police.


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## selzer

You have two other boys? Was one or both an infant when you had Thor? Babies sound, look, and smell different than other people. 

Babies come first. I have to agree, the dog would be outside and I would be working with a professional behaviorist with an excellent reputation, or rehome him.


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## sehrgutcsg

I think most of the members that have responded to this thread of been absolutely correct - the one thing that they haven't pointed out is that you could be locked up for the rest of your life for negligence. I know that you're not in intentionally putting your infant at risk but it's a matter of hey! What are you going to do?

I think you should seriously consider boarding the dog first thing in the morning and getting that dog out of the house - so that your baby has a safe place to live if the door accidentally gets opened by one of your other children - it's going to be heartbreak city.


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## brebrehj

selzer said:


> You have two other boys? Was one or both an infant when you had Thor? Babies sound, look, and smell different than other people.
> 
> Babies come first. I have to agree, the dog would be outside and I would be working with a professional behaviorist with an excellent reputation, or rehome him.


We adopted Thor for the shelter when my older boys were 2 and 4. They are now 4 and 6 years old. Thor came into and established family, now our family is established and the baby has come into it. 

Thors time inside has been less and less. And I think you're right he will just have to stay outside until we can get the situation evaluated and see where to go from there. 
It breaks my heart at the prospect of possibly rehoming him but my main priority is that little baby.
I've contacted some GSD rescues in the area to see who they use as far as trainers and behaviorists. Hoping there is some sort of way to make this situation work. He deserves more than being a back yard dog. As long as we've had him he has been and indoor dog

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## TinkerinWstuff

My 10yr old GSD was incredible with children. But when my son came along and crawled into the dog's space one time, he threatened the child. Not everyone may have approved of my method in that moment but he learned where he stood right quick. After that, they were the best of buds for the next two years until the dog passed of old age.

As so many people mentioned , the crawling thing and an adult dog isn't something to take lightly.


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## brebrehj

You're right and I'm thinking ultimately he will probably end up with my ex husband (it's not ideal) but I would never forgive myself if anything happened to this fragile little human.
It's such a shame because he has been wonderful with my older boys. 

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## pineconeforestGSD

totally agree with gsdsar


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## Longfisher

*Just out of curiosity...*

...what did you do when the dog first barked at the baby?

I believe it's possible that the dog was trying to play with the baby. You say he was "rooting" around the baby. Many dogs try to induce play with other dogs, particularly smaller dogs and puppies when they push their noses into them and prod so as to make them move, run, etc. so they can engage in a chase. Perhaps it's prey behavior.

What tone was the barking? High pitched or vicious? Did he show his teeth and growly or try to take the baby in his mouth? If it was high pitched and if the dog didn't have his ears back and head lowered, again he was trying to play.

But it's misplaced play because the baby is, well, a baby. And, as such the baby could be hurt even with well-intentioned play.

I for one NEVER allow my Zeus around children. Even children with experience with dogs can do things that Zeus finds frightening or that simulate prey behavior. And, let's be honest...kids are dumb as rocks about things like this.

Why, just the other day a young girl who has been badgering me about letting her pet the dog made a quick movement (she threw aside her plastic water bottle) and that scared the dog. Zeus recoiled and then came back at her with a low growl.

Now, back to what did you do when this happened? Sounds like nothing.

Here's what you should have done. You should have immediately charged the dog and knocked him about physically with your body (any part will do) until the dog ran out of the room. I charged Zeus when he growled at the little girl without permission. And, I pulled him up close to me with the leash and choke collar and screamed in his face, "BAD DOG". It was instinctual and instantaneous.

You should have seen how wide his eyes opened and how quickly he retreated.

Above, a Gentleman hinted that he'd do something similar. but all the mamby-pambies on this board have, apparently, intimidated him into not saying.

Anyway, I don't allow any children around my dog, even though many want to play with him. I think big dogs and children, particularly small children and absolutely babies simply don't mix. As many have said above, it's just too dangerous.

But I feel really bad for your dog. He was just playing and trying to induce play in the baby (who couldn't have played with the dog in any way). I would be very reluctant to get rid of the dog as others have suggested. Just develop a plan to keep them completely apart and next time be ready to make the dog pay a stiff price for his foolishness.

LF


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## David Winners

Longfisher said:


> ...what did you do when the dog first barked at the baby?
> 
> I believe it's possible that the dog was trying to play with the baby. You say he was "rooting" around the baby. Many dogs try to induce play with other dogs, particularly smaller dogs and puppies when they push their noses into them and prod so as to make them move, run, etc. so they can engage in a chase. Perhaps it's prey behavior.
> 
> What tone was the barking? High pitched or vicious? Did he show his teeth and growly or try to take the baby in his mouth? If it was high pitched and if the dog didn't have his ears back and head lowered, again he was trying to play.
> 
> But it's misplaced play because the baby is, well, a baby. And, as such the baby could be hurt even with well-intentioned play.
> 
> I for one NEVER allow my Zeus around children. Even children with experience with dogs can do things that Zeus finds frightening or that simulate prey behavior. And, let's be honest...kids are dumb as rocks about things like this.
> 
> Why, just the other day a young girl who has been badgering me about letting her pet the dog made a quick movement (she threw aside her plastic water bottle) and that scared the dog. Zeus recoiled and then came back at her with a low growl.
> 
> Now, back to what did you do when this happened? Sounds like nothing.
> 
> Here's what you should have done. You should have immediately charged the dog and knocked him about physically with your body (any part will do) until the dog ran out of the room. I charged Zeus when he growled at the little girl without permission. And, I pulled him up close to me with the leash and choke collar and screamed in his face, "BAD DOG". It was instinctual and instantaneous.
> 
> You should have seen how wide his eyes opened and how quickly he retreated.
> 
> Above, a Gentleman hinted that he'd do something similar. but all the mamby-pambies on this board have, apparently, intimidated him into not saying.
> 
> Anyway, I don't allow any children around my dog, even though many want to play with him. I think big dogs and children, particularly small children and absolutely babies simply don't mix. As many have said above, it's just too dangerous.
> 
> But I feel really bad for your dog. He was just playing and trying to induce play in the baby (who couldn't have played with the dog in any way). I would be very reluctant to get rid of the dog as others have suggested. Just develop a plan to keep them completely apart and next time be ready to make the dog pay a stiff price for his foolishness.
> 
> LF


IMHO, this is totally possible but not something that can be assessed over the internet. A trainer is a must in this situation. 

David Winners


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## Charlie W

My initial reaction when I read your post was "rehome the dog", having read everybody's input I still think you should rehome the dog. I say this as a mother and a dog lover. Sad for you I know, but the dynamics in your house have changed and you don't need the worry which you will always now have with this dog, and your dog is likely to be stressed by it too.. I don't envy you..


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## my boy diesel

as to longfishers post
what makes you think tossing the dog about is going to make it safe around a baby?
genuinely curious
the dog may regret having growled at a child or baby but that dont make it safe around that child or baby

your derisive tone really makes no sense
if any dog of mine went after a child (none of mine do) they would be scolded swiftly and surely but i still would not trust them around kids after that 
apparently you dont either so it has nothing to do with mamby pamby crap or lack thereof now does it?

*Anyway, I don't allow any children around my dog,*

i dont have to manhandle or fling my dog about to get him to be good with kids
but sanity should prevail in all cases and small kids should not be left alone with any dog


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## Chip18

David Winners said:


> IMHO, this is totally possible but not something that can be assessed over the internet. A trainer is a must in this situation.
> 
> David Winners


I'll tag along with this one, it sounds like something my Gunther would do. He always got "excited" with kittens and puppies. Play bow and woofing...my female Boxer did not care for that behaviour from him...but that's another story! 

Keep everyone safe and get someone that knows what they are doing have a look at the situation.


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## wolfy dog

brebrehj said:


> My newborn is close to 2 weeks old. My 1 year old GSD is super sweet and gentle with the baby. My 4 year old GSD goes crazy when in the same room with him. He tries to root the baby with his nose and barks at him. He goes crazy trying to get to the baby. We've tried having me hold the baby while my sister stands by his side just in case. We've tried my sister holding the baby while I stand by his side. The "introductions" end with him being pulled back and having a wild look in his eye that is difficult to read, that I have only seen when he sees a cat.
> Has anyone else experienced this or have any info or tips on how to get him to calm down and accept the new family member?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Have you all overlooked the original post?


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## David Winners

wolfy dog said:


> Have you all overlooked the original post?


What do you suggest? 

Here is the way the advice is going:

No contact with the kid until evaluated by a trainer. Be ready to rehome the dog.


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## Chip18

wolfy dog said:


> Have you all overlooked the original post?





David Winners said:


> What do you suggest?
> 
> Here is the way the advice is going:
> 
> No contact with the kid until evaluated by a trainer. Be ready to rehome the dog.


This and I'm not going to suggest anything to contradict that advice.

But since the OP did bring up cats. I have had a similar behaviour with newborn kittens!

My guys grew up with cats completely non cat reactive but they had never seen newborn kittens. I had them in the room while the kittens were being born. My Boxer was always a calm balanced dog, she sat quietly and calmly observed the process and laid very still so as not to disturb the new creatures. 

My BullMastiff?APBT mix was always a Dominant dog he to was non cat reactive but he knew this was different?? 

What to do what to I have to do something? Was his take, he got excited and barked and play bowed! That was a bit to much for my Boxer and she decided to put him in his place...then I had to put her in her place but I digress. 

Something very similar might be going on here? If such is the case your most likely very lucky the calmer of the two dogs didi not redirect to the more excited one!

It is best to get eyes on the dog by a pro but it might also be as simple as my Dominant Dog new born kittens example. ie What to do what to do??


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## llombardo

I have a feeling that we might be surprised at what a trainer has to say and that is all I have to say


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## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> IMHO, this is totally possible but not something that can be assessed over the internet. A trainer is a must in this situation.
> 
> David Winners


I agree 100%. Totally possible, but ONLY if the parents are more than the average pet owner--they would have to be very canine savvy, able to read the dog completely, know how to handle such a situation, etc. etc. The vast number of average pet owners are not capable of evaluating that dog's intentions, or correcting them, and the OP has to be brutally honest enough to admit it. That baby's life is too precious to play with.


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## wolfy dog

David Winners said:


> What do you suggest?
> 
> Here is the way the advice is going:
> 
> No contact with the kid until evaluated by a trainer. Be ready to rehome the dog.


I was worried and felt that the general advice in the later threads was going to put the dog first. 

I am too very interested what the trainer's evaluation will be. But there is also a large variety of trainers as we ll know.


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## nktigger99

As a mom of young kids to suggest that it would be as easy as keeping the dog and child apart is well a joke. Those first few months can be down right exhausting....sometimes walking around with a few hours of sleep night after night. I know when I have had a newborn or two no way could I have been on my A game every second to keep the baby safe with a dog like that. There is zero room for error....I mean babies are on the ground so much...in their bouncy, swing, etc. One mistake could end badly. 

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## wolfy dog

nktigger99 said:


> As a mom of young kids to suggest that it would be as easy as keeping the dog and child apart is well a joke. Those first few months can be down right exhausting....sometimes walking around with a few hours of sleep night after night. I know when I have had a newborn or two no way could I have been on my A game every second to keep the baby safe with a dog like that. There is zero room for error....I mean babies are on the ground so much...in their bouncy, swing, etc. One mistake could end badly.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Agree 100%.


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## David Winners

I would crate the dog, in the garage, unless it was on a leash at my side. I wouldn't expect to be able to keep them separated in the house with the dog having freedom. I know I couldn't do it with any hope of certainty.




nktigger99 said:


> As a mom of young kids to suggest that it would be as easy as keeping the dog and child apart is well a joke. Those first few months can be down right exhausting....sometimes walking around with a few hours of sleep night after night. I know when I have had a newborn or two no way could I have been on my A game every second to keep the baby safe with a dog like that. There is zero room for error....I mean babies are on the ground so much...in their bouncy, swing, etc. One mistake could end badly.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## brebrehj

Well the trainer won't be able to come out here till next week or the week after. In the mean time he will remain outside with the doors locked so my other 2 children can not let him in, at night he will come inside with the door to the hallway (where the bedrooms are) closed with a hook lock so the children again can not let him near the bedrooms.
In the mean time I have been giving him articles of the babies clothing to smell, articles of my clothing which has the smell of my milk on it. He seemed very curious about the scents. I let him inside while my sister was holding the baby, first muzzled with a prong collar on. He rooted and whined for a minute after a while when he was good and calm and showed minimum interest in the baby I took the muzzle off, held on to his leash. He smelled the baby. I wrapped my arms around his chest as if I was hugging him (really incase I needed to quickly pull him back). His ears were back his head was down, he seemed very submissive. He smelled the baby licked his hand (gross) and left him be.
He will still be evaluated. I by no means believe this means everything is okay or safe, just like with my other 2 boys he will not be alone with the baby and will continue to be separated but it gives me hope. His behavior right now could not have been any more ideal. But like I said I understand we are not in the clear but I do have a a little more hope.

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## Chip18

Just gonna say the prong collar is a mistake! It can put drive into the dog..opposite of what you are trying to achieve. That is unless you have been schooled in it's proper use?


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## alexg

maybe put a baby for adoption?


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## DaniFani

Please stop doing this on your own...we're talking about an infant child here...stop experimenting...you should be teaching the dog to not even look at the child (general neutrality). STOP PUTTING THE DOG NEAR THE CHILD.


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## zyppi

put your baby first no matter how you love the dog.

Take no chances!


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## mrs.campbell

Some dogs do not. I have my 6th baby on the way and I will tell you right now that dog would be finding a new home. What happens in a few months if you all are doing okay and he is in a bouncy and you go to the bathroom or something and the dog nails your baby? I am not saying it can't work out. I love dogs and always have, however babies come first. Your words of'' he goes crazy when in the same room with him'' is enough for me to say it isn't safe for your child. If you can't get a trainer asap maybe get him into a home he is safe in until you can work this out and keep baby safe.


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## wolfy dog

brebrehj said:


> I wrapped my arms around his chest as if I was hugging him (really incase I needed to quickly pull him back). His ears were back his head was down, he seemed very submissive. He smelled the baby licked his hand (gross) and left him be.


This is the scariest and riskiest thing you could have done IMO. You could never prevent an attack in this situation. Holding a dog around his chest, trying to prevent him form attacking if he has that intention, will never work, you will never be strong or fast enough. It happens in a flash of a second. 
I don't understand why this dog is still in your home.


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## SunCzarina

wolfy dog said:


> I don't understand why this dog is still in your home.


I am afraid I don't understand either. It's not good for the dog's mental health to be outside but the exercise with your sister and your baby, you are very lucky that didn't end badly.

Please send the dog to live with your x husband. I'm assuming this is the older children's father. They'll still see him, you'll still see him and it's much safer for your NEWBORN. 

Good grief woman, be a mother.


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## brebrehj

SunCzarina said:


> I am afraid I don't understand either. It's not good for the dog's mental health to be outside but the exercise with your sister and your baby, you are very lucky that didn't end badly.
> 
> Please send the dog to live with your x husband. I'm assuming this is the older children's father. They'll still see him, you'll still see him and it's much safer for your NEWBORN.
> 
> Good grief woman, be a mother.


I am a mother and you can make assumptions about me all day long. You insinuating I am not a good mother is uncalled for and rude.
The ex lives in another state, he is the father of my older children AND newborn. It will take a bit of time to coordinate getting the dog to him and when he comes to visit his 3 children or we go to visit him they will still all be exposed to each other. 

I have never EVER left my children alone with any dog and wouldn't at any point in the future. The way my home is, it is easy to separate the living room and kitchen and the bedroom/play area. In the mean time my Thor seems very content spending his time outside during the day.
Everyone's judgement and concern is very endearing, I asked for those who have been through this to step forward and offer their opinion not to be ripped apart

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## DaniFani

brebrehj said:


> I am a mother and you can make assumptions about me all day long. You insinuating I am not a good mother is uncalled for and rude.
> The ex lives in another state, he is the father of my older children AND newborn. It will take a bit of time to coordinate getting the dog to him and when he comes to visit his 3 children or we go to visit him they will still all be exposed to each other.
> 
> I have never EVER left my children alone with any dog and wouldn't at any point in the future. The way my home is, it is easy to separate the living room and kitchen and the bedroom/play area. In the mean time my Thor seems very content spending his time outside during the day.
> Everyone's judgement and concern is very endearing, *I asked for those who have been through this to step forward and offer their opinion not to be ripped apart*
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com
> Free App


Here's my anecdotal experience.....

I had a CORGI (that was around 20 pounds) snap at my baby...she was corrected, it was in her nature (nervy). Spoke to a few trainers, and ultimately decided to re home to a kid free house....this was a 20 pound dog...not a adult German Shepherd, and I still rehomed her. I think your dog may need a "come to jesus" talk, and that could fix things (only a trainer/behaviorist can say this for sure), but I still wouldn't ever trust the dog in the home with my children. 

So, I have had experience with aggression towards my child. I re homed the dog without a second though. I loved that dog (my "baby" before my human baby came), but my son was more important. If my corgi had been a GSD and *acted like yours* (having to be pulled away with a 'crazy look in his eyes'), it probably would have been out the door to a new home the day it happened. If I could get a trainer to evaluate it on the way out? Sure, but I would never trust that dog again, so it wouldn't have mattered much what the trainer said. Plenty of dogs don't do well with children, they don't belong with children....

Sorry if you are getting defensive, but we're talking about a 2 week old *infant* child. I can look past the initial problem (sorta), everyone learns through things like this. It's the fact that you SET UP another "experiment" with your *80+lb German Shepherd*, to see if it would continue to show inappropriate behavior with your *two week old child*. Most *trainers* would never do this, let alone suggest you do it on your own. 

Do you really not understand the harshness coming from people? Children are bit everyday from dogs, an *infant* could be killed in a second from a dog "playing," let alone being aggressive. Makes my stomach turn. You are full of so many excuses, SunCzarina said "be a mother" because you are making excuses for not dealing with an adult GSD being inappropriate with your baby. Never thought I'd say it...but I agree with her, completely.

What worries me more is now that you "have hope" it's easy to assume that your guard is going to be lowered a little with this dog. Please for the sake of your newborn, just keep them separated, get a trainer to evaluate, and be ready to rehome...if the kids will continue to be exposed at the ex's house, for goodness sake put the dog in a childless home.


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## LoveEcho

brebrehj said:


> Well the trainer won't be able to come out here till next week or the week after. In the mean time he will remain outside with the doors locked so my other 2 children can not let him in, at night he will come inside with the door to the hallway (where the bedrooms are) closed with a hook lock so the children again can not let him near the bedrooms.
> In the mean time I have been giving him articles of the babies clothing to smell, articles of my clothing which has the smell of my milk on it. He seemed very curious about the scents. I let him inside while my sister was holding the baby, first muzzled with a prong collar on. He rooted and whined for a minute after a while when he was good and calm and showed minimum interest in the baby I took the muzzle off, held on to his leash. He smelled the baby. I wrapped my arms around his chest as if I was hugging him (really incase I needed to quickly pull him back). His ears were back his head was down, he seemed very submissive. He smelled the baby licked his hand (gross) and left him be.
> He will still be evaluated. I by no means believe this means everything is okay or safe, just like with my other 2 boys he will not be alone with the baby and will continue to be separated but it gives me hope. His behavior right now could not have been any more ideal. But like I said I understand we are not in the clear but I do have a a little more hope.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



This is an incredibly, extremely dangerous thing to do. OP, as for your other post, you asked for advice from people who have been there and everyone has said keep the dog and baby separated under any and all circumstances. 

My brother was bitten as an infant by his father's dog doing pretty much the exact same thing. He was horribly disfigured and required a lot of plastic surgery. Now with his own children he would never, ever put his baby near the dog and his dog is totally stable.

Not leaving the dog and baby unattended is not enough. As others have said, there is absolutely no way you would be able to stop the dog from biting the baby- it happens too fast. 

Please be safe and good luck with the trainer.



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## alexg

Correction: All the kids need to be put for adoption. 


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## nktigger99

brebrehj said:


> Well the trainer won't be able to come out here till next week or the week after. In the mean time he will remain outside with the doors locked so my other 2 children can not let him in, at night he will come inside with the door to the hallway (where the bedrooms are) closed with a hook lock so the children again can not let him near the bedrooms.
> In the mean time I have been giving him articles of the babies clothing to smell, articles of my clothing which has the smell of my milk on it. He seemed very curious about the scents. I let him inside while my sister was holding the baby, first muzzled with a prong collar on. He rooted and whined for a minute after a while when he was good and calm and showed minimum interest in the baby I took the muzzle off, held on to his leash. He smelled the baby. I wrapped my arms around his chest as if I was hugging him (really incase I needed to quickly pull him back). His ears were back his head was down, he seemed very submissive. He smelled the baby licked his hand (gross) and left him be.
> He will still be evaluated. I by no means believe this means everything is okay or safe, just like with my other 2 boys he will not be alone with the baby and will continue to be separated but it gives me hope. His behavior right now could not have been any more ideal. But like I said I understand we are not in the clear but I do have a a little more hope.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am sorry but that was just STUPID....nothing would have stopped that dog from attacking....dead baby would have what you would have gotten...would you want to be planning a funeral right now....facing investigation from the police.....

That may sound harsh but good god you were tempting fate....putting your child's life in danger. 

And no re homing the dog should mean a child free home not a home where your kids would still be exposed to danger. 

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## belladonnalily

Stop the introductions! The dog has already shown aggression towards the baby. He doesnt get a chance to "accept." You are giving him options, which he shouldnt have. One of his options could be for you to have a dead child. 
I wouldn't put a small dog in the situation you've put your baby in. 

When I read that you had once again, let your dogs mouth near your infant, a knot formed in my stomach. I hope we dont read about a tragedy on the news. 

Im dealing with my own dog aggression issues right now and believe me, things happen FAST with a dog, more so with one as powerful as a GSD. The fact that you think holding his chest will prevent him from harming your child, especially when his teeth are within inches of your baby, is truly frightening. 

Nix the trainer, rehome the dog. To do otherwise is selfish and irresponsible. 

And the fact that you've shared this on the internet, and refused to take the advice of many knowledgeable posters, is going to really make you look bad at your trial. 

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## Sarah~

brebrehj said:


> I took the muzzle off, held on to his leash. He smelled the baby.


I actually gasped out loud when I read this! Please listen to everyone here! That was so dangerous, I wouldn't have even let the dog in the same room as the baby with the muzzle ON.


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## DonnaKay

Infant critical after dog mauling near Tempe

For the sake of your children, please please please rehome the dog.


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## SunCzarina

alexg said:


> Correction: All the kids need to be put for adoption.


I don't doubt your sentiment here. It's a wacky situation and NONE OF US I'm sure want to hear on the news that a german shepherd attacked a baby. Makes the entire breed feel bad - just talk to some pitbull and rottie people if unclear on the concept of breed specific legislation and discrimination.

It's your call, they're your children and your dog. This really is one of those it's me or the dog situations.


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## Sarah~

Yeah there have been 3-4 "pit bull" attacks in the last week alone. I hate seeing those articles pop up on my facebook and email, it does make me feel bad as a pit bull owner. OP's story doesn't have to end this way! 

If you think people are nasty and ignorant to shepherd owners, walk a pit bull in public. :/ I would hate to see shepherds get an even worse reputation.


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## KZoppa

OP, you are putting your NEWBORN in danger. You are also creating further tension by continuing to try the introductions, especially but thinking the dog being muzzled with you hugging him is going to do anything to stop him if he decides he's going for it. Rehome the dog. He is displaying aggressive behavior and clearly unstable around the baby. He may be fabulous with your older kids but he knows them, he's used to them, they move more normally and don't make prey noises like a new baby does. 

I've been in the same situation and the dog was rehomed. I was not about to put my kids in jeopardy like that, no matter what. The dog was questionable in his behavior. Not only will the dog suffer in your situation of separation, it's not going to help with how you're going about it. The dog is stressed and you are not helping by continuing to introduce. The time to introduce has long since passed and he's abused the privilege of meeting the new addition by behaving dangerously. 

REHOME THE DOG! It's better for him and the newborn. Your newborn should come first, above all else. This is an instance where your feelings about the dog need to be put on the back burner and your protective mothering instinct needs to come out full force and keep that baby safe. The dog is a liability displaying such behavior and should be unwelcome. I don't think training is going to help this situation any. I've seen too many cases where I or my mentor was called in for similar situations and the dog ended up either being rehomed or euthanized because the parents lapsed and the dog nailed the baby. 

Newborns are a great deal of work. Newborns with two older children are harder. Add those with a dog who needs far more work put in and you'll slip. It's a cosmic promise that all the best intentions, someone WILL slip up. You have a 4 and a 6 year old. So do I. My kids are great but still push it and do things they shouldn't. Do you really want to take that chance? Do you realize the kind of mental scarring that can be done to your older children if they were the ones to allow the dog back inside despite your rules and attempts to keep them from doing so and they witness the dog maul your baby? What about if they let the dog inside and go off to play and the dog mauls the baby? 

Management only lasts to long with kids in the house.


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## Blanketback

OP, I'm not going to rip a strip off you and bash you for your decisions. But I will add a very sad and tragic article for you to read:
BBC News - Eliza-Mae Mullane died after dog bite, inquest told

"I hope this inquest will raise public awareness of the potential dangers family dogs can present to very young children."

They thought their dogs were fine, and now they've lost their daughter and their dogs. I doubt they're ever get over this. What could be sadder than this? My heart aches for them.


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## my boy diesel

*I asked for those who have been through this to step forward and offer their opinion not to be ripped apart*

and they gave it
hire a trainer and/or rehome the dog
there was no advice on intros or anything else because this board as a whole states it is too dangerous for this to do on your own and may be too dangerous even with a trainer involved
people are upset because you asked then summarily ignored everyones advice
and you then did the most dangerous thing to your newborn infant you could have dreamt up
prongs muzzles and leashes are no instruments to have around a newborn baby!
and if you need those tools just to have that dog around your baby then there is something gravely wrong!
one grab by that dog could _kill_ your infant
for gosh sake mere _curiosity_ on your dogs part about this baby could kill it!


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## SunCzarina

Sarah~ said:


> Yeah there have been 3-4 "pit bull" attacks in the last week alone. I hate seeing those articles pop up on my facebook and email, it does make me feel bad as a pit bull owner. OP's story doesn't have to end this way!
> 
> If you think people are nasty and ignorant to shepherd owners, walk a pit bull in public. :/ I would hate to see shepherds get an even worse reputation.


Thank you Sarah. That's exactly what I'm saying. We had a GSD in the neighborhood who the parents carelessly left out and about with the baby sitter. The children were tweens and elementary age. The story of that shepherd biting the baby sitter on the hiney was ALL OVER THE HOOD, made me feel bad and it was kinda annoying because random people I barely knew would come up and eye my dogs with suspicion because someone else's shepherd had nipped the sitter!


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## wolfy dog

As a trainer I often find that people ask for advice, you help them and then they go on in their own ways. In these cases I think they only want validation for what they are already doing, even if it wasn't working. 
This do-it-yourself-training with the GSD is starting to look like child endangerment. 
We tried, it is up to the OP now.


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## JakodaCD OA

> Correction: All the kids need to be put for adoption.


Is that supposed to be a joke? If so, it's not real funny or appropriate.

I agree with the others,,don't try this on your own, keep the dog separated from the baby until you can get an evaluation or your ex can take him.


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## Alice13

Everyone here is right. No matter how much you love your dog, your baby comes first. You can't be on guard all the time. I'll give you an example, a pretty simple one. My dog likes to run away with our slippers when she is out. All it takes is for me to get distracted for 1 second n she is off with the slippers. The same way, all it takes is for you to let your guard down for 1 second n it might be too late. 

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## SunCzarina

As Krystal said, the impact on the older children is great too. This dog is their buddy, what if they slip up, open a door INSIDE the house to talk to mommy who's nursing the baby?

I have 3 children who are much older, 9 y/o twins and an 10 1/2. We have a 14 month old puppy who takes inappropriate things so she has to stay where I can watch her. Not a day goes by where the door to my office or the kitchen isn't left open with me calling Where's Venus?


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## Longfisher

*I understand why they do so.*



wolfy dog said:


> As a trainer I often find that people ask for advice, you help them and then they go on in their own ways.


I disagree. Folks most often get so much contradictory advice on dog topics, particularly on the Internet, that they become hesitant, indecisive and perhaps even foolish.

It's human nature.

LF


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## llombardo

I'm reading all the posts and I just want to confirm what I'm reading.. Dog gets along fine with older kids. Dog nudges baby and cries. Dog licks babies hand. Dog shows minium interest in baby after he gets to smell it. Dog has a look in his eye, which doesn't say much. No lunging, barking, or growling? Has never experienced a smaller baby? Just wanted to get all the facts in order.


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## alexg

JakodaCD OA said:


> Is that supposed to be a joke? If so, it's not real funny or appropriate.
> ....


So don't laugh.

It is my POV, if I may.

Thank you, dear.


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## sparra

brebrehj said:


> My 4 year old GSD goes crazy when in the same room with him. He tries to root the baby with his nose and barks at him. He goes crazy trying to get to the baby. We've tried having me hold the baby while my sister stands by his side just in case. We've tried my sister holding the baby while I stand by his side. The "introductions" end with him being pulled back and having a wild look in his eye that is difficult to read, that I have only seen when he sees a cat.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Re-read it llombardo......I think you have misinterpreted it..........not everyone else......


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## llombardo

sparra said:


> Re-read it llombardo......I think you have misinterpreted it..........not everyone else......


Actually I took the time to get more info and since the first post the OP has had the dog in the same room. The dog has kissed the baby. The dog has walked away from the baby. Maybe it's hard for some people to read the dog, maybe it's a really nervous mom that just gave birth. There is always an adjustment period with a baby, not all dogs know what a baby is. That is why proper introductions are needed when a baby enters the picture. We had a husky when we were younger that did the nudging and got excited when my sister was a baby. That dog took every opportunity to poke his nose at her belly and make her fall down and cry in the playpen. That dog and my sister were inseparable as she grew up.


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## David Winners

It's JMHO, but I wouldn't automatically get rid of the dog. I can't trust the OP to have the experience to evaluate the situation. Therefore, I recommended a trainer who could get an honest read on the dog and make the appropriate call.

I know my CC could have never been trusted with a baby the day I got him, but he's great with them now. I took the necessary steps to evaluate him, found him to have good temperament and bad manners, and implemented the proper training.

This is not something I believe can be accomplished over the internet IMO.

David Winners


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## LeCielEstRouge

This whole situation makes me sad. I can't imagine being in this position and it is probably easier said than done. It would be devastating to have to part with one of my dogs but if I felt they were a danger to my children it'd have to be done. Even the gentlest of dogs can have days. They're animals. But this one sounds like he has some serious issues with the new baby. OP, please don't put him around the baby again. Especially after reading the article on the last page.


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## llombardo

David Winners said:


> It's JMHO, but I wouldn't automatically get rid of the dog. I can't trust the OP to have the experience to evaluate the situation. Therefore, I recommended a trainer who could get an honest read on the dog and make the appropriate call.
> 
> I know my CC could have never been trusted with a baby the day I got him, but he's great with them now. I took the necessary steps to evaluate him, found him to have good temperament and bad manners, and implemented the proper training.
> 
> This is not something I believe can be accomplished over the internet IMO.
> 
> David Winners


Agreed


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## sparra

Which is what most have been saying all along.......the fact that llombardo thinks it is progress cause the dog has "kissed the baby" is frightening to me.....the dog shouldn't be anywhere near the baby let alone licking it (which by the way is not "kissing" it) but anyway.......carry on.......


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## llombardo

sparra said:


> Which is what most have been saying all along.......the fact that llombardo thinks it is progress cause the dog has "kissed the baby" is frightening to me.....the dog shouldn't be anywhere near the baby let alone licking it (which by the way is not "kissing" it) but anyway.......carry on.......


People all over the world have dogs and babies. Some are able to introduce without issue, some need more time. Do you think that people everywhere don't have this issue? The dog barked at the baby, which is the worst thing the dog did. Do we know if the bark was aggressive or excitement? How does one think a dog acts if they are excited about something new? Let's talk about the look in his eyes, were we there to see it? Does the OP know how to read the look? I can bet my dog Midnite would attempt to react the same way and I am 100% sure he wouldn't hurt the baby but he would be very excited to meet the baby. These dogs can sound vicious in any circumstances, play, excitement, etc. do I think a trainer is needed to evaluate, yes if the OP isn't sure what the dogs body language is or is nervous, because that is traveling to the dog. I agree the baby's safety is first, but I also believe the wording of the original post scared everyone. I give the OP credit for trying to make things right, because if every dog that acted this way in the beginning would be rehomed or put in a shelter. I know my dog was brought to the shelter for stuff he did with kids and a baby was on the way. He does nothing but follow the kids in my home around, sleep with them, he just simply adores them, but his original owners would tell you differently. Mine came to me with no manners, he had to be taught. Just like David said about this dog. If a trainer comes in and says this dog is aggressive I will gladly admit I was wrong, but based on what I know besides what is in this thread I don't think that will happen. In any case the OP is prepared to rehome the dog for the safety of the baby. It bothers me that we wouldn't be having this conversation if the dog was a golden retriever. It bothers me that if a dog barks then he should be rehomed without question. It bothers me that people think the OP is a bad mom. It bothers me that no one has given any ideas on how to introduce a dog and a baby. There are just lots of things that bother me about this whole thread...


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## sparra

llombardo said:


> There are just lots of things that bother me about this whole thread...


I know......to think that people care more about a newborn than a dog.......shameful..........


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## Sarah~

I don't think OP is a bad mom, and I'm sure she knows her dog so if there is even a question in her mind that the dog might be acting aggressive I don't think anyone should give advice on how to introduce him to the baby. Maybe he's not being aggressive but that is not for the people on this forum to say, a trainer needs to see the dog before any decisions are made, I think. I would say the same if the dog was a chihuahua, or any other animal with teeth and claws...


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## DobbyDad

I will agree with David, Llombardo, and Alexg ( because it was funny and something was needed to lighten the mood). The last interaction between the baby and the dog seemed better. Which gives hope. The dog still very much needs to be evaluated by a good trainer. Separate them until then. Hopefully you will be able to keep both.


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## Angelina03

I'm ver curious to know the outcome of the evaluation...


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## LoveEcho

Trainer definitely needs to evaluate, mom definitely needs to stop DIY'ing. 

It's all impossible to evaluate over the internet, but safety needs to be a priority. Most people wouldn't know what they're looking at when looking at dog behavior, and even more gets lost in translation over the net.


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## Blanketback

llombardo said:


> It bothers me that we wouldn't be having this conversation if the dog was a golden retriever.


And it bothers me that you believe this. Why would breed have _any_ bearing on it? I'm assuming that OP isn't a behaviorist, so when OP sees the same reaction from the dog that a cat would typically get, I'm thinking this isn't a safe situation. It's called erring on the side of caution.

It would take a split second for a tragedy to occur. This is why I don't let my dogs play with my rats: they're fragile and tragedy can happen in the blink of an eye. In this case we're talking about a newborn infant! 

It makes more sense to me to consider rehoming the dog than it does to isolate the dog. As you know yourself, an adult dog can have just as much love and attention in its 2nd home - and I'd rather see the dog getting the love and attention it deserves, than being relegated to a run or the yard while the other dog gets to be with the family. I'm thinking of the dog too, not just the newborn baby.


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## nktigger99

The breed makes no difference.....



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## Sunflowers

Of course we would be having the same conversation if the dog were a Golden. Or a Chihuahua, or a Yorkie.
Doesn't matter. You are putting a newborn with a predator.


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## selzer

We would definitely be having this conversation if the dog was a Rottweiler or a Pit Bull. They are all canines. And new babies smell different.

I think the only hope I see is that the dog is good with the four and six year olds. And that they were 2 and 4 when he came to live there. 

I do not think that going to live with the x is a good idea, unless you are going to swap kids for dog. And anyways, kids should be free with the parents' dogs. 

It is possible that the dog just needs to adjust to the new family member. The consequences are so dire though if that goes wrong, that I would prefer to say rehome the dog. 

It sounds like there have been some serious changes in this dogs life. Adopted as an adult or puppy two years ago, and at some point within the last 9 months, Father stepped out of the picture. This is a major item. Dogs seem to understand pregnancy. They sniff at the belly, and they know that something is different there. New babies are a big questionmark to a lot of dogs. Maybe when this one is toddling, there will be no problem at all. But again. the consequences of being wrong are unbearable. 

To keep the dog, means constant vigilence. And it can all turn out daises. I hope so.


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## wolfy dog

Blanketback said:


> It makes more sense to me to consider rehoming the dog than it does to isolate the dog. As you know yourself, an adult dog can have just as much love and attention in its 2nd home - and I'd rather see the dog getting the love and attention it deserves, than being relegated to a run or the yard while the other dog gets to be with the family. I'm thinking of the dog too, not just the newborn baby.


Good point of view. Especially when regrets come too late, then everyone has lost.

..


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> Of course we would be having the same conversation if the dog were a Golden. Or a Chihuahua, or a Yorkie.
> Doesn't matter. You are putting a newborn with a predator.


No we wouldn't. Yorkies and chihuahuas are barkers, so most people would think that the dog barks at everything anyway. If a golden nudged a baby with its nose, it would be an awwwww moment.


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## selzer

nktigger99 said:


> The breed makes no difference.....
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think it does, but not much of a difference with infants. Any dog can kill an infant. 

But, I think overall, it doesn't do those of us any good, who own breeds that have been bred indiscriminately to the point where there is marked instability in a population of the breed, or bred for the traits that use their natural aggression, prey drive, pack drive, play drive, to believe that our dogs are no more dangerous than any other dog out there. 

There are breeds that are more likely to bite, to seriously injure, and to kill, and the owners of these breeds should not be living in la la land about it. I think you had better know what you are doing, and what your dog is doing if you own pits, cane corsos, presa canarios, and some of the other breeds that tend to be most likely to get themselves into trouble. GSD, Rottweiler, and Doberman owners and many other formidable dog breed owners, also need to be aware that while their dogs may not be as likely to kill as some other breeds, they are more likely than others, and we need to protect them. 

There are more labs than GSDs out there, but GSDs tend to have more bites on record and more deaths on record than labs. Breed does make a difference. Labs have been getting crazier too. But it makes sense to see a thing for what it is, and what it isn't than it is to just say that breed doesn't make a difference. I think breed makes a big difference. How many beagles are out there killing people? Would I leave a beagle alone with an infant? No way. But I would not be shocked if we weren't having this conversation if this was a beagle forum and a beagle that we were talking about.


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## Sarah~

selzer said:


> I think it does, but not much of a difference with infants. Any dog can kill an infant.
> 
> But, I think overall, it doesn't do those of us any good, who own breeds that have been bred indiscriminately to the point where there is marked instability in a population of the breed, or bred for the traits that use their natural aggression, prey drive, pack drive, play drive, to believe that our dogs are no more dangerous than any other dog out there.
> 
> There are breeds that are more likely to bite, to seriously injure, and to kill, and the owners of these breeds should not be living in la la land about it. I think you had better know what you are doing, and what your dog is doing if you own pits, cane corsos, presa canarios, and some of the other breeds that tend to be most likely to get themselves into trouble. GSD, Rottweiler, and Doberman owners and many other formidable dog breed owners, also need to be aware that while their dogs may not be as likely to kill as some other breeds, they are more likely than others, and we need to protect them.
> 
> There are more labs than GSDs out there, but GSDs tend to have more bites on record and more deaths on record than labs. Breed does make a difference. Labs have been getting crazier too. But it makes sense to see a thing for what it is, and what it isn't than it is to just say that breed doesn't make a difference. I think breed makes a big difference. How many beagles are out there killing people? Would I leave a beagle alone with an infant? No way. But I would not be shocked if we weren't having this conversation if this was a beagle forum and a beagle that we were talking about.


That's a good point, selzer, I didn't think about it that way. Actually I would not be shocked if we weren't having this conversation on a pit bull forum, either, because the second the dog looked at the baby wrong it would be gone, not that I could really blame them.


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## my boy diesel

this dog didnt just "nudge the baby with its nose"
it was extremely over the top and out of character and the op interprets this
probably correctly, as aggression
the op has another dog who is calm and wonderful with the baby and the kids
but this is different or she would not be on here asking for advice


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## Lilie

I would also be concerned with displaced aggression towards the other children/family members/guests.


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## llombardo

my boy diesel said:


> this dog didnt just "nudge the baby with its nose"
> it was extremely over the top and out of character and the op interprets this
> probably correctly, as aggression
> the op has another dog who is calm and wonderful with the baby and the kids
> but this is different or she would not be on here asking for advice


Have you ever written something using the wrong words or not explained it correctly? Words transfer differently to everyone. If I have a question I go right to the person to clarify. It was clarified and it was a dog that used its nose and nudged the baby. I don't find a dog that barks at a baby as over the top. Whining and crying doesn't qualify for over the top either. All my dogs would whine and cry, even be vocal about what they want.


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## nktigger99

selzer said:


> I think it does, but not much of a difference with infants. Any dog can kill an infant.
> 
> But, I think overall, it doesn't do those of us any good, who own breeds that have been bred indiscriminately to the point where there is marked instability in a population of the breed, or bred for the traits that use their natural aggression, prey drive, pack drive, play drive, to believe that our dogs are no more dangerous than any other dog out there.
> 
> There are breeds that are more likely to bite, to seriously injure, and to kill, and the owners of these breeds should not be living in la la land about it. I think you had better know what you are doing, and what your dog is doing if you own pits, cane corsos, presa canarios, and some of the other breeds that tend to be most likely to get themselves into trouble. GSD, Rottweiler, and Doberman owners and many other formidable dog breed owners, also need to be aware that while their dogs may not be as likely to kill as some other breeds, they are more likely than others, and we need to protect them.
> 
> There are more labs than GSDs out there, but GSDs tend to have more bites on record and more deaths on record than labs. Breed does make a difference. Labs have been getting crazier too. But it makes sense to see a thing for what it is, and what it isn't than it is to just say that breed doesn't make a difference. I think breed makes a big difference. How many beagles are out there killing people? Would I leave a beagle alone with an infant? No way. But I would not be shocked if we weren't having this conversation if this was a beagle forum and a beagle that we were talking about.


Any dog regardless of breed displaying the behavior the OP described in the original post should get the same response. ALL dogs could kill a 2 week old infant....all dogs could disfigure a 2 week old infant. 

I had a golden(and a clumber spaniel) when one of my child was an infant....and you can bet anything if he had acted like that no way would I have said oh how cute. But I never let my dogs ever get that close to my infant children. 



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## Lilie

brebrehj said:


> . *He tries to root the baby with his* *nose and barks at him. He goes crazy trying to get to the baby*. The "introductions" end with him being pulled back and having a in his*wild* *look eye that is difficult to read, that I have only seen when he sees* *a cat.*
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't think this is difficult to understand.


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## Blanketback

brebrehj said:


> ...having a wild look in his eye that is difficult to read, that I have only seen when he sees a cat.


Llombardo, does this sound like the kind of reaction you'd like to see from one of your dogs, when introduced to your newborn child? Not me.


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## Sunflowers

llombardo said:


> No we wouldn't. Yorkies and chihuahuas are barkers, so most people would think that the dog barks at everything anyway. If a golden nudged a baby with its nose, it would be an awwwww moment.


Lisa, we need to look at the whole picture. Any dog that goes into predator mode with a newborn should be looked upon as a danger. Crazy eyes, whining, rooting.

No "awwww" there.

I fail to see the relevancy of the "if it were another breed" discussion.
It is not another breed, our breed can be dangerous, and we should not deny that.
I think the only safe thing we can recommend is to have the dog evaluated by someone who knows GSDs.
Since we were not there to see exactly what the dog is doing, we have no way of knowing whether it is safe to keep the dog or not.


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## Blanketback

I'm pretty sure if it was a JRT, there would be the same answer. I think most people would say it's just not worth the risk.


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## my boy diesel

in the op it is stated that the dog "goes crazy" not once but twice the op states that using those terms
no i would not want a dog that "goes crazy" around my infant or toddler or even preschool age kid!! 
she equated the going crazy with the look the dog gets when he sees a cat
dogs of all breeds can easily see infants as prey
it is age old, hard wired behavior to view a warm, wiggly squeaking small object as prey

if people refuse to understand this they are ignoring *basic dog 101 *


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## Stevenzachsmom

I can't believe some people think breed matters and we wouldn't be talking about it here if..... This is a GSD forum. Yes, the vast majority of conversations are going to be about GSDs. As it so happens, I do belong to a beagle forum. Some of those people are afraid, yes afraid, of their beagles. Many have been bitten by their beagles or feel their child is unsafe around the beagle.

My cousin once offered me a young English Springer Spaniel, who someone was rehoming. Soon after getting the dog home, it growled into my 2 year old's face. That dog was out the door in a nano-second. I am a mother. Breed is irrelevant to me. I don't think a dog showing questionable behavior toward a child is cute, no matter what the breed.

I remembered this story. I'm sure many of you do - the Pomeranian who killed a 6 week old. Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog - Los Angeles Times It doesn't take a GSD, or a pit, or any other large breed to kill a baby. I certainly hope we would take aggression toward a child seriously, regardless of breed. If not, shame on us.


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## selzer

I am not sure about the rooting. I have seen bitches do this to baby puppies, or to me where the baby puppy had been up against my shirt. They are sniffing at it, not necessarily to kill it. But to understand what it was, does it need food, does it need to potty -- they have to help. Is it sick, what is it. Where is it in some cases.

But the rest of it, having to have the dog pulled away, I have to sometimes carry a pup through the house for something, and I have to be able to say to the girls, Eh! Mine. They cannot jump up and try to get at the baby. They have to respect that that is mine, not for them, leave it. 

Can this dog just have terrible manners? I don't know. The dog needs to be evaluated in person by someone who knows what they are doing. 

The baby is the most important. I don't know if it is possible to ensure every minute that the baby and the dog will never be in close proximity. If it was as easy as regulating the dog to the outside until the dog realizes the baby is part of the family now, and gets used to it, then I would think that was a plan. But how could we come to that determination? Can an animal behaviorist/trainer provide the owner with the answers the owner needs and be accurate?

Any level of risk is too high. Really. The consequences are just too great. And if you let the x have the dog, and then the children go to visit, and the baby gets hurt over there, how is that any better?


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## selzer

Well, to be fair, beagles are hunting dogs and do have plenty of prey drive. So I could understand a beagle acting weird around possible prey.

But yes, I do remember the pom that killed the infant, the baby was left on the bed when the the father went to fridge to get the formula, and up came the pom and killed the baby. Crazy story. Sad. Stupid too. 

People see their dogs as a personality, but do not always recognize that outwardly a dog puts on the attributes of a pet, it behaves to maximize the good things, and to minimize the negative things around his owners. But underneath he is 100% canine. 

Evenso, some canines are bred _for_ their drives, for their prey drive, pack drive, play drive, guarding tendencies, natural aggression. And the breeds that are bred with little respect to who they are, between all of them, we can have dogs that are closer to their instinctive canine background that they are so prized for. And we can also have dogs that are unstable. 

It think a lot of breeds have had a lot of that bred out, or did not have a lot of the various drives. Terriers kill rats. They have a lot of prey drive, and can kill. But I think there are some breeds that are just much less likely to be not good with babies/toddlers. And individual dogs of any breed can be awesome with children and even babies. But we don't trust any dog with an infant. 

It is sad that people are afraid of their beagles. Has beagle breeding been so bad as that, or are people just totally clueless? I grew up around beagles. No one was afraid of beagles then. 



Stevenzachsmom said:


> I can't believe some people think breed matters and we wouldn't be talking about it here if..... This is a GSD forum. Yes, the vast majority of conversations are going to be about GSDs. As it so happens, I do belong to a beagle forum. Some of those people are afraid, yes afraid, of their beagles. Many have been bitten by their beagles or feel their child is unsafe around the beagle.
> 
> My cousin once offered me a young English Springer Spaniel, who someone was rehoming. Soon after getting the dog home, it growled into my 2 year old's face. That dog was out the door in a nano-second. I am a mother. Breed is irrelevant to me. I don't think a dog showing questionable behavior toward a child is cute, no matter what the breed.
> 
> I remembered this story. I'm sure many of you do - the Pomeranian who killed a 6 week old. Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog - Los Angeles Times It doesn't take a GSD, or a pit, or any other large breed to kill a baby. I certainly hope we would take aggression toward a child seriously, regardless of breed. If not, shame on us.


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## David Winners

There are conditions where I would definitely rehome this dog.

Owner not being able to read the dog and honestly tell the difference between excitement and predatory behavior.

Dog going into predatory behavior after being taught to be calm and giving the baby space.

Owner not willing to create a safety bubble around the baby, insisting that they interact.

Dog showing aggression towards the baby.



There are also conditions where I would train this dog.

Dog becoming excited but learns to become calm and respect boundaries without frustration.

Dog shows extreme interest in the novelty of the baby but switches gears once the novelty of a screaming, wiggling baby wears off.

Dog is not showing stress or frustration at all around the baby and understands what is appropriate behavior.


IMHO, it's important to ascertain exactly what the dog's motivation is and if it is safe to address the behavior. You don't want to just remove the behavior, because that will fail when you are not paying attention to the dog. You have to change how the dog views the baby. 

None of this is a possibility without watching the dog in person. I will never trust an owner's opinion on something like this. It is no fault of theirs, but they often wear rose colored glasses when viewing their dog. Emotions cloud judgement, creating a situation where small details are omitted causing a dangerous situation. They often don't know what different states of mind look like. They often see what they want to see.



David Winners


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## selzer

David, I don't know if I could trust a trainer or behaviorist either. First you would have to find one that has credentials, that have not been exaggerated and the right kinds of experience with the right kind of dogs -- this is a daunting task in and of itself. It is not just a matter of hitting the yellow pages. And you just can't go to your vet and ask for a recommendation. They may have one. But you can't rely on that person being capable of evaluating your dog.

And then, they see the dog for what? 45 minutes? 2-3 hours tops? Maybe there isn't a thunderstorm going on in that timeframe. 

At the end of the day, we have a helpless infant, and the trainer/behaviorist would have to live with his recommendation, but they wouldn't be burying a child. 

I think that since the dog seems good around small children, he shouldn't be that hard to place. He would probably do best in a home with no kids or older kids, but it isn't like he will be a raving lunatic if he sees a toddler. People generally keep infants away from stranger dogs. It's not like little kids who will run up and drape their arms around your dog and kiss it when you have you back turned.


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## Blanketback

This dog's life isn't in danger - we're only talking about rehoming. IF something happens to this infant, then the dog's life is most definitely over. It seems like the logical thing to do, to consider the option of rehoming. I honestly wouldn't trust anyone to predict the future, and that's what it would be, IMO.


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## David Winners

The Developing Canine



> Carolyn Weinbaum has been a professional animal trainer since 1984 when she began her career at the Miami Seaquarium training and presenting shows with Orcas, Pacific white-sided dolphins, California sea lions and Pacific harbor seals.
> 
> In 1989 Carolyn was asked to develop a training program with the New Orleans' Audubon Zoo’s five California sea lions. While in New Orleans, Carolyn expanded her training skills by training white rhinos, red wolves, and primates.
> 
> After obtaining her certification as a dog trainer in 1995 from a nationally recognized dog training school, Carolyn founded The Developing Canine Behavior and Training.



Sounds like a good place to start.


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## nktigger99

David Winners said:


> Owner not willing to create a safety bubble around the baby, insisting that they interact.
> .


This! I do not understand why the OP wants a dog any dog that close to her newborn?

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## Gwenhwyfair

Mary, GAGSD and mod on this board I believe is also a trainer and lives near Columbus...trying to remember the name of her training biz.....will try to find it and link here.


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## David Taggart

> Has anyone else experienced this or have any info or tips on how to get him to calm down and accept the new family member?


That is a typical behaviour of a male towards a new family member. If your baby was his own puppy - he would behave absolutely the same. He behaves like that because he doesn't know what to do with your baby, but he feels that that little creature somehow is very important (probably it is your body language indicates that). If your baby was his puppy - the mother would draw him away agressively. It is not in dogs only, cat-mothers behave extremely agressive towards the tom cat father. And, not without a reason - he might like to play with the puppy/kitten and harm him. So, I think, you should do the same, just tell your dog "Go away!" and train him to keep distance. Believe me, he will understand the reason and finally will lose this interest with repetition. But, don't worry, that is not agression, just unhealthy interest.
There are different problems might occur with the newborn. You dog might become jealous. In order to avoid it ( you have to have some time away from your baby anyway) exercise him yourself, feed him treats, fondle him often, not just shoo him away.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Found it, in case this helps the OP sort this out....

von den Thermalquellen - Training Information


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## sparra

David Taggart said:


> That is a typical behaviour of a male towards a new family member. If your baby was his own puppy - he would behave absolutely the same. He behaves like that because he doesn't know what to do with your baby, but he feels that that little creature somehow is very important


Seriously? My male must not be "typical" cause he certainly didn't behave like this toward my newborn.....and if he had of he would have been out the door.


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## llombardo

sparra said:


> Seriously? My male must not be "typical" cause he certainly didn't behave like this toward my newborn.....and if he had of he would have been out the door.


Really? Even if you knew your dogs general temperament you would have not taken the time to teach or train him the right way if hd didn't have the proper manners?


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## David Winners

I guess it's from working with aggressive dogs, but it's hard for me to understand the knee jerk reaction to get rid of the dog without seeking professional help first. I would take this dog on as a trainer in a moment. The opportunity to really make a change in the lives of people and dogs doesn't happen all that often. Most training is about getting people to actually work with their dogs regularly. Getting the chance to work on something like this is always an opportunity in my book.

IMO, this isn't even a bad case. No one has been bit. I sometimes see cases where dogs have been biting their family for years. They just put up with it. This doesn't appear to be an established habit that has been going on for years. It isn't even something that happens frequently so far, and the dog is fine with other small kids.

The infant will only be an infant for a short period. IMHO, proper evaluation, management and training should work in this case. I think it must be done, but it could be a good situation for the dog, owner and children if proper steps are taken.

JMO


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## sparra

llombardo said:


> Really? Even if you knew your dogs general temperament you would have not taken the time to teach or train him the right way if hd didn't have the proper manners?


Yes really.....it is not a chance I would take with my baby for the sake of keeping a dog.


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## Blanketback

Everybody thinks it won't happen to them. When it's too late to turn back the clock, then what? Why think that this dog needs to be taught manners? Why compare this situation to other everyday biting incidents? Isn't prey drive something that the dog either has or it hasn't? If the drive is very strong, how much success will even the best trainer have in diminishing it? 

Family Dog Attacks on Children - Staying Safe from Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org


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## DaniFani

David Winners said:


> I guess it's from working with aggressive dogs, but it's hard for me to understand the knee jerk reaction to get rid of the dog without seeking professional help first. I would take this dog on as a trainer in a moment. The opportunity to really make a change in the lives of people and dogs doesn't happen all that often. Most training is about getting people to actually work with their dogs regularly. Getting the chance to work on something like this is always an opportunity in my book.
> 
> IMO, this isn't even a bad case. No one has been bit. I sometimes see cases where dogs have been biting their family for years. They just put up with it. This doesn't appear to be an established habit that has been going on for years. It isn't even something that happens frequently so far, and the dog is fine with other small kids.
> 
> The infant will only be an infant for a short period. IMHO, proper evaluation, management and training should work in this case. I think it must be done, but it could be a good situation for the dog, owner and children if proper steps are tak
> JMO


ou On 


I guess it's from being a parent, I personally, would never trust this dog again... Why would I put my dog or myself through that constant hesitation and distrust. It may not be founded, if the dog gets training, but it doesn't change that I would not trust that dog. I dont think any child and dog should be left together, but I would never be able to get the image of the dog wanting to get at my child, out of my mind. Call it dramatic, uncaring, whatever. That's my baby, yes it'll only be a baby for a little longer, but if I have a baby, most of my friends have babies, babies are everywhere in my life. I completely understand wanting to rehab it, but I wouldn't want it in my home. It depends greatly on the genetic makeup of the dog, my corgi was a nervy as all get out. It was complete fear aggression with her, genetic. Anyway, it's not that I don't believe aggressive dogs can't be rehabbed, I just don't want to have them with my kids.


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## gsdsar

I do believe it all goes back to the owner and their ability to read and train their dog. Some on this board would be more than qualified to work through this issue. But then, they would not be asking for opinion or help. If they are qualified to do it, they just do it. 

I am not convinced this family is capable and qualified to take the risk. I could be very wrong. But if I am not, I don't want a baby to be injured. That said, I have seen wholly unqualified people go the extra distance and prove me wrong and work a dog that I thought was outside of their ability. If the dedication is there.....but based solely on the posts here, I fear for the child. 


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## nktigger99

llombardo said:


> Really? Even if you knew your dogs general temperament you would have not taken the time to teach or train him the right way if hd didn't have the proper manners?


**** yes!!!!!!! My kids safety comes before anything else!!!!!! 

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## David Winners

Just for clarification. I wouldn't blame anyone for rehoming a dog in this situation. I understand family and safety first, and ultimately it is us as parents that keep our kids safe. In no way did I mean to imply that rehoming this dog would be a mistake. 

I also understand that my viewpoint is going to differ from others, and respect everyone's opinion.

David Winners


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## maxdog630

Having very young children myself - where is the "extra" time to work with a trainer going to come from. Having a newborn as well as two other children, I'm not seeing how you can find the time. Even knowing my heart would want to find a way to make it work - IMO, I would always be worried and that is not a risk I could take regardless of all the training evals and expert opinions.....


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## Susan_GSD_mom

gsdsar said:


> I do believe it all goes back to the owner and their ability to read and train their dog. Some on this board would be more than qualified to work through this issue. But then, they would not be asking for opinion or help. If they are qualified to do it, they just do it.
> 
> I am not convinced this family is capable and qualified to take the risk. I could be very wrong. But if I am not, I don't want a baby to be injured. That said, I have seen wholly unqualified people go the extra distance and prove me wrong and work a dog that I thought was outside of their ability. If the dedication is there.....but based solely on the posts here, I fear for the child.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's the crux of the matter. If they had to ask what to do, they aren't able to accurately read this dog, nor are they able to decide the dog's motives, consequently they are not qualified to correct the situation. The child is not safe.


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## llombardo

I find it hard to believe that anyone much less people on here would not attempt to evaluate their dog and choose to rehome it immediately in this situation. I know that if I had a dog in my home for a couple years with NO previous problems with anything, has a good temperament, and is fantastic with older but still young kids I would not jump right to rehoming. I would evaluate how the introductions to begin with were done. I am positive Midnite would have and still might bark, cry and whine to get to a baby, especially on a leash. I am positive he would nudge the baby to. I am positive I would not rehome him because I know him and I trust him. It would be my job to protect the baby as it is to protect Midnite. It's my job to teach him the baby is just that and it's my job to teach him what is allowed and how he should act. It would be completely different if he growled or snapped at the baby, showed signs of not having a stable temperament, or previous aggression etc.


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## David Winners

maxdog630 said:


> Having very young children myself - where is the "extra" time to work with a trainer going to come from. Having a newborn as well as two other children, I'm not seeing how you can find the time. Even knowing my heart would want to find a way to make it work - IMO, I would always be worried and that is not a risk I could take regardless of all the training evals and expert opinions.....


So if you are walking your dog next week and an off leash JRT attacks your dog, with the result that you dog becomes fearful of other dogs and aggressive, you're going to rehome the dog instead of train it?

I would train my dog instead of sleep if it meant not getting rid of the dog. There is always time, just not always motivation.

David Winners


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## sparra

David Winners said:


> So if you are walking your dog next week and an off leash JRT attacks your dog, with the result that you dog becomes fearful of other dogs and aggressive, you're going to rehome the dog instead of train it?
> 
> I would train my dog instead of sleep if it meant not getting rid of the dog. There is always time, just not always motivation.
> 
> David Winners


Obviously never taken care of a newborn 24/7.........not much sleep to be had in the first place......but anyway.....this discussion is just becoming a waste of time.
Good luck to the OP............hope you find a solution that is safe for you your beautiful new baby and your canine friend.


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## David Winners

sparra said:


> Obviously never taken care of a newborn 24/7.........not much sleep to be had in the first place......but anyway.....this discussion is just becoming a waste of time.
> Good luck to the OP............hope you find a solution that is safe for you your beautiful new baby and your canine friend.


LOL... father of 2 with a granddaughter.

David Winners


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## sparra

David Winners said:


> LOL... father of 2 with a granddaughter.
> 
> David Winners


Sorry.......doesn't mean you have looked after a newborn and two older kids 24/7......maybe you have .....maybe your superman  but for most of us mere mortals doing this and training a dog not to harm your baby might just be too much......one slip up and it could end very badly......but then we all know that anyway right??


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## David Winners

This thread is so negative it is astounding. I'm not even going to respond to that. I'm going to stop responding to anything outside of PMs. Sometimes you would think nothing is possible in training if you read this board.

If you don't believe you can do something, you never will.


OP, feel free to PM me.


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## maxdog630

David Winners said:


> So if you are walking your dog next week and an off leash JRT attacks your dog, with the result that you dog becomes fearful of other dogs and aggressive, you're going to rehome the dog instead of train it?
> 
> I would train my dog instead of sleep if it meant not getting rid of the dog. There is always time, just not always motivation.
> 
> David Winners


 Clearly you are the dog expert.... My animals aren't disposable, I love them with all my heart and put every effort into being a responsible pet owner. They are members of my family. But you are talking about the life of a baby and this mother is raising these children alone. Now throw in just giving birth two weeks prior - realistically she cant try and be supermom ever if her heart is in it. 

No need to be confrontational.


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## llombardo

sparra said:


> Sorry.......doesn't mean you have looked after a newborn and two older kids 24/7......maybe you have .....maybe your superman  but for most of us mere mortals doing this and training a dog not to harm your baby might just be too much......one slip up and it could end very badly......but then we all know that anyway right??


Wow... Well I have been there and done that with 4 kids and 5 dogs. One dog that wasn't overly fond of kids so needed to be watched and trained, two dogs that thought they could boss that dog around if he did anything stupid with the kids and 3 kids that weren't even mine. Worked full time to. A busy time in my life, I'm not super woman, but I did it and never had any problems. It's called dedication and mine was to everyone in the home.


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## maxdog630

David Winners said:


> This thread is so negative it is astounding. I'm not even going to respond to that. I'm going to stop responding to anything outside of PMs. Sometimes you would think nothing is possible in training if you read this board.
> 
> If you don't believe you can do something, you never will.
> 
> 
> OP, feel free to PM me.


 David - I read a lot of your posts and find you are a wealth of information and no doubt an amazing trainer. Your advise to people is extremely helpful.


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## Blanketback

I hope you reconsider, and do add to this thread David, because my question was sincere: how much prey drive can be diminished through training? 

Everyone is seeing this through their own experiences. My experiences consist of seeing dogs rehomed, with emphasis placed on putting the dogs in the right environment. So, if they're not good with kids or cats, then they go to homes without them. 

My other concern here is comes from my experience with a stray BC I'd taken in. She was perfect with my cats, all indoor cats. One day a neighbor's cat was in my yard, unknown to me. This dog made straight for it, with me on her tail, and all I can say is that she seemed to be in another world. It was something else! The cat died.

So I'm not "being negative" when I think rehoming is the best option. I think I'm being realistic. I don't think this is a training issue, because I think the dog here is motivated by something that isn't a learned behavior, but instinctual. And I believe that is would be a dangerous situation, given that an infant is far more fragile than a toddler.

So am I wrong? I'd like to learn something, really. Thanks, if you do decide to answer.


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## nktigger99

llombardo said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone much less people on here would not attempt to evaluate their dog and choose to rehome it immediately in this situation. I know that if I had a dog in my home for a couple years with NO previous problems with anything, has a good temperament, and is fantastic with older but still young kids I would not jump right to rehoming. I would evaluate how the introductions to begin with were done. I am positive Midnite would have and still might bark, cry and whine to get to a baby, especially on a leash. I am positive he would nudge the baby to. I am positive I would not rehome him because I know him and I trust him. It would be my job to protect the baby as it is to protect Midnite. It's my job to teach him the baby is just that and it's my job to teach him what is allowed and how he should act. It would be completely different if he growled or snapped at the baby, showed signs of not having a stable temperament, or previous aggression etc.


Well....believe it.....because without a doubt that is what would happen in this household! 


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## belladonnalily

maxdog630 said:


> Having very young children myself - where is the "extra" time to work with a trainer going to come from. Having a newborn as well as two other children, I'm not seeing how you can find the time. Even knowing my heart would want to find a way to make it work - IMO, I would always be worried and that is not a risk I could take regardless of all the training evals and expert opinions.....


This.

There are plenty of people qualified to have a GSD with possible temperament issues and newborn. But there are exponentially more that are not.

I wouldn't have had a GSD puppy with a good temperament, or an adult with anything but stellar temperament and training, when my children were young. I wasn't prepared for it.

So while some here could manage this situation and try to make it work, this is a single mother, with an ex who lives far away, with 3 young children. And based on what she has said, she is not experienced enough to know what to do. 

That is the difference. 

It might work out. "Might" just wouldn't be good enough for me personally but everyone has to walk their own road.

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## Blanketback

Llombardo, if one of your dogs bit your child, what would you do with the dog?


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## sparra

David Winners said:


> This thread is so negative it is astounding. I'm not even going to respond to that. I'm going to stop responding to anything outside of PMs. Sometimes you would think nothing is possible in training if you read this board.
> 
> If you don't believe you can do something, you never will.
> 
> 
> OP, feel free to PM me.


I really don't understand your take on this situation ........at first you seemed just as worried as the rest of us and now you seem to think it justifiable to expect a single mother with three young children to train the dog no excuses........sorry you find it negative that some people would put the safety of a baby before a dog.


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## LoveEcho

My fear with the scenario is that the OP is throwing caution and common sense to the wind, so I'm not terribly optimistic in their desire to take the time and effort to work with the dog properly. Rather than taking the time and effort to keep everyone separated and safe until a trainer can be consulted, she seems to be looking for a "quick fix" (and validation, as others have said). Can many people work through the issues with the help of a trainer? Probably. Does everybody want to or have the ability to work through the situation? Probably not. 

I think a lot of people responded as passionate parents who would find themselves incredibly overwhelmed if presented with the same situation. Someone who is very dog savvy might not hesitate in saying, "well of course I would work through the issues," while someone who is comparatively inexperienced would say, "gosh, I don't know if I could do that... so why risk it?" 

The OP asked for help in the first place, so the building blocks of wanting to work through the issues are there. I hope the OP realized how dangerous what she was doing was, but continues to seek help from someone who can more appropriately evaluate the situation.


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## sparra

llombardo said:


> Wow... Well I have been there and done that with 4 kids and 5 dogs. One dog that wasn't overly fond of kids so needed to be watched and trained, two dogs that thought they could boss that dog around if he did anything stupid with the kids and 3 kids that weren't even mine. Worked full time to. A busy time in my life, I'm not super woman, but I did it and never had any problems. It's called dedication and mine was to everyone in the home.


Good for you


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## nktigger99

llombardo said:


> Wow... Well I have been there and done that with 4 kids and 5 dogs. One dog that wasn't overly fond of kids so needed to be watched and trained, two dogs that thought they could boss that dog around if he did anything stupid with the kids and 3 kids that weren't even mine. Worked full time to. A busy time in my life, I'm not super woman, but I did it and never had any problems. It's called dedication and mine was to everyone in the home.


Sorry that is not been there done that.....just going to leave it there.....it is like a childless daycare working saying they know what it is like being a SAHM to multiple kids....it is laughable. 

You can say that the OP should work with this dog....but please don't think you can say you have been there done that. 

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## llombardo

Blanketback said:


> Llombardo, if one of your dogs bit your child, what would you do with the dog?


I would look at the situation. Did the kid jump on the dog? Did the kid get into the dogs face? Did the kid try taking a bone out of the dogs mouth? Did the dog grab the finger when offered a treat? I would not get rid of the dog if the bite was due to something the kid did. Shame on me for not teaching the kid how to behave around the dog. In all my years and many dogs none of the kids in my household have ever been bit, but they are taught respect early on. The respect is a two way street with dogs/kids. It's not even something I'm worried about to be honest. I would be more worried about having a newborn around a cat and the cat suffocating the baby.


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## Blanketback

Thank you for answering, and I agree with you. Lots of times here, it's an instant rehoming situation. And having seen some of the dogs that are relinquished with a bite history, I think it's imperative to prevent this from happening in the first place. A dog with a bite history is generally doomed.


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## llombardo

nktigger99 said:


> Sorry that is not been there done that.....just going to leave it there.....it is like a childless daycare working saying they know what it is like being a SAHM to multiple kids....it is laughable.
> 
> You can say that the OP should work with this dog....but please don't think you can say you have been there done that.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Raising 4 kids and 5 dogs isn't been there and done that? That's offensive to say the least. I have every right to say I have been there and done that because I did. I did it alone because the parents of the three kids I was raising plus my own were drug addicts, thieves, and committing every other crime you can think of. So back off and don't tell me what you think you know. I made sure everyone in the house was safe..kids and dogs.


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## belladonnalily

So Lombardo, you believe you can completely proof a toddlers behavior with dogs and if the toddler does something to provoke the dog, its your fault as a parent for not teaching the CHILD? If the "child" is 10, okay I get it. But we're talking about a 4 & 6 yo and a NEWBORN.

A 4 yo child shouldn't face a possible bite for making a mistake with the dog. 

I'm all for teaching children how to behave around animals. But no child should learn in an environment that could mean life or death.

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## llombardo

belladonnalily said:


> So Lombardo, you believe you can completely proof a toddlers behavior with dogs and if the toddler does something to provoke the dog, its your fault as a parent for not teaching the CHILD? If the "child" is 10, okay I get it. But we're talking about a 4 & 6 yo and a NEWBORN.
> 
> A 4 yo child shouldn't face a possible bite for making a mistake with the dog.
> 
> I'm all for teaching children how to behave around animals. But no child should learn in an environment that could mean life or death.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It is my responsibility to teach, watch and teach. A 4 year old should never be left unattended with or without a dog. There is no excuse or reason that a 4 year should be able to make that kind of mistake. It is not acceptable behavior for any child of any age to provoke any dog. It is not tolerated and not allowed . I am very strict about this and I have never had a child not understand that I meant business and the rules are the rules, therefore with multiple dogs and kids in the house I have never had an issue. There is no growling or barking at the kids allowed. And the kids understand that dogs are there to pet not man handle and to maybe even play some fetch. It really isn't that hard of a concept.


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## belladonnalily

I understand what you're saying and I think most everyone would agree with your philosophy on children and dogs. But its also not a perfect world and many (I'd go as far as to say most) parents cannot be 100% diligent. Especially a single parent with 3 young children. Its awesome that you believe you are 100% diligent, and I'm not doubting that you are as I don't know you. But for every child that gets bit because their parents are flat-out negligent, there's another one whose parents were careful and responsible but they dropped the ball when it mattered most. Family crises, illnesses, day-to-day stresses make us all imperfect at some point.

I don't know the OP either. What tempered my response was not so much the initial incident, but what she thought was a good solution to the problem. Putting the dog and baby close again, and the way she described holding the dog, didn't reassure me that she understood the situation.

I'm just suggesting she stack the odds in the baby's favor. Not to mention the dog, who has at this point done nothing life-changing. 

FWIW, my pup has gotten an "interesting" look in his eye at my 92yo 100lb grandmother. She loves him and wanted to talk in a high-pitched voice to him. After I saw that "interest", he is always in a down when she is in the room, and I dont allow her to put herself near his face. And he wears a prong and slip collar for back-up. And he's never growled, barked or displayed any other signs. No way I'd ever live in the home with her and my pup. Not worth the potential heartbreak even though I really dont believe he would ever hurt her.

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## Blanketback

I agree, belladonnalily. It's all about the circumstances. If the same scenario happened at David's home, there's no way I'd tell him to rehome his dog, lol. I can trust that he'd be able to handle it. With OP I have no way of knowing if this is a workable situation or not. It's not a simple fix, and treating like that is irresponsible IMO.


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## sparra

This thread has nothing to do with dogs biting kids......or did I miss that the two week old baby provoked the dog......maybe it pulled on the dogs hair.........


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## selzer

sparra said:


> I really don't understand your take on this situation ........at first you seemed just as worried as the rest of us and now you seem to think it justifiable to expect a single mother with three young children to train the dog no excuses........sorry you find it negative that some people would put the safety of a baby before a dog.



I don't either. I don't understand how he thinks this is so negative and now won't respond on the thread. Whatever. 

Yes, we love dogs, yes they are family members, but a mother with three little ones, and another dog, is probably better off without a dog that is scarey around her infant. And no, she probably doesn't have the time to work on training the dog on top of everything else. 

There's another dog too. If there is an attack, the baby lives or dies, no one is going to feel sorry for the dogs -- yes, dogs. Because if someone lives through a GSD attacking their infant, I don't expect them to keep either of them. 

Sometimes you have to understand you are out of your depth in a situation, and go ahead and get the dog evaluated so you can place it in the best situation for the dog and the people. 

Babies are just too precious, and some things you just cannot take back. And little kids are of no help at all, but they may open the door and let the dog in. Because little kids do not think the way adults do. They do not think of the long-term repercussions or of all possible outcomes. I think this is a tragedy waiting to unfold. I hope I am wrong.


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## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> I hope you reconsider, and do add to this thread David, because my question was sincere: how much prey drive can be diminished through training?
> 
> Everyone is seeing this through their own experiences. My experiences consist of seeing dogs rehomed, with emphasis placed on putting the dogs in the right environment. So, if they're not good with kids or cats, then they go to homes without them.
> 
> My other concern here is comes from my experience with a stray BC I'd taken in. She was perfect with my cats, all indoor cats. One day a neighbor's cat was in my yard, unknown to me. This dog made straight for it, with me on her tail, and all I can say is that she seemed to be in another world. It was something else! The cat died.
> 
> So I'm not "being negative" when I think rehoming is the best option. I think I'm being realistic. I don't think this is a training issue, because I think the dog here is motivated by something that isn't a learned behavior, but instinctual. And I believe that is would be a dangerous situation, given that an infant is far more fragile than a toddler.
> 
> So am I wrong? I'd like to learn something, really. Thanks, if you do decide to answer.


Sorry that's an example of an untrained "cat" proofed dog, Any of my dogs could do this:









Some folks are "deeming" the OP as "incompetent" and "reckless". And saying she can't "read" her dog, yet many have no problem accepting her original, "guess" as "prey drive?"

If it is "prey drive" which I doubt myself, that's different, if it's not she's seeking a second opinion. Seems reasonable to me?

A dog that's calm and balanced acts one way with "new circumstance" a dog that has dominant tendencies acts another way. 

Does not make either behaviour wrong, a calm behavior is just easier to "accept". If she had two calm balanced dogs she most likely would not have even bother to post!

I have seen both behaviors at the same time, with two dogs, it does not make the Dominant dog "dangerous!"

Just saying.


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## belladonnalily

Chip, all of that may be true. We really have no idea if the OP is competent. We have no idea if the dogs behavior is "prey drive." 

What we DO know is the dog behaved in a way that made the OP very worried about the safety of her baby. And then, instead of keeping the baby completely separate from the dog until a trainer could assess the situation in person, the OP experimented by putting the baby and dog back in the same situation. 

THAT is the concern. 

But, no one here really knows. Either way. 

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## belladonnalily

David Winners said:


> Keep them 100% separated. Get a trainer, a good one, and be prepared to re home the dog or keep them separated for years. Wild eyed crazy prey behavior could lead to very bad things with an infant.
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners


This was David's first post about the subject. Numerous others simply said "consult a trainer ASAP." And keep them apart until then. 

And the OP apparently ignored all of that.

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## selzer

If you don't rehome the dog, and it attacks the baby = terrible
If you do rehome the dog, and it would have attacked the baby (but didn't) = ok
If you don't rehome the dog and it doesn't attack the baby = good
If you do rehome the dog and it would not have attacked the baby = well, shucks.

I guess you just have to do a risk management. Most owners cannot be absolutely positive they are reading the dog correctly. I wouldn't probably trust a trainer/behaviorist either, it takes nothing to set yourself up as one, and if they are wrong, you live with the consequences. 

I know a fellow that was having a baby so he got rid of his cat that he had before he ever married his wife. He did not give the cat a chance at being ok with the baby or not. He just got rid of it. I don't think that is what is going on here. I think we have a dog that is VERY questionable, and a situation that has so many opportunities in it for a tragic result.


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## Nikitta

Sorry. I love my dogs to death but if I had a baby and a dog who was being aggressive to it, the dog would have to go.


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## misslesleedavis1

OP, dogs are quick and hugging his chest would not do a thing to stop him. Its good you have a trainer on the way, im with other members about keeping them apart. Hope it works out for you 




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## David Winners

I'm done posting on this type of thread. There are plenty of omniscient people around to handle these situations.

David Winners


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## sparra

David Winners said:


> Just for clarification. I wouldn't blame anyone for rehoming a dog in this situation. I understand family and safety first, and ultimately it is us as parents that keep our kids safe. In no way did I mean to imply that rehoming this dog would be a mistake.
> 
> I also understand that my viewpoint is going to differ from others, and respect everyone's opinion.
> 
> David Winners


I really don't understand what your problem is ........ Your original post in this thread was not too optimistic either .......


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## Blanketback

Chip18 said:


> Sorry that's an example of an untrained "cat" proofed dog, Any of my dogs could do this:


I don't get what you're trying to tell me: what do you mean these are _untrained_ dogs, just sitting there watching a cat? Huh? And your dogs could do that too - ok, are they also untrained? What am I missing here?


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## my boy diesel

curious if anyone has looked at ops past posts

wonder if she has made progress with this 1 yr old or if it is the same dog that has already bitten the grandmother of this infant and is described by the op as "nervy" 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/383202-my-1-year-old-bit-my-mom.html#post4688714


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## sparra

I think he means the dogs in the photo were cat proofed unlike the dog in your story.......although there are quite a few dogs in that photo that look like they would love to eat that cat


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## llombardo

my boy diesel said:


> curious if anyone has looked at ops past posts
> 
> wonder if she has made progress with this 1 yr old or if it is the same dog that has already bitten the grandmother of this infant and is described by the op as "nervy"
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/383202-my-1-year-old-bit-my-mom.html#post4688714


Not the same dog. I did go back and read a good deal of the OPs posts. The dog in the baby thread is the older dog and she has never had anything but good things to say about him. The one year old bit grandma, but if you read the thread grandma was drunk and hovering over the kids.


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## belladonnalily

Oh wow I didnt realize this was the same as the grandma biting dog OP. 

Sounds like the OP has some serious issues to manage in her home, Grandma being one of them. Just further reinforces my feeling that OP might just have too much on her hands. Drunk Grandma, 1yo dog that has issue with DG (not that I can blame) & now a confused adult GSD.

I think some people are just a glutton for punishment. Maybe rehome Grandma? 

I know from past personal experience that friction in the home with the humans can cause all sorts of issues with dogs. This doesn't sound like a stable environment. 

I do feel for the OP. But sometimes we make life harder than it needs to be.

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## llombardo

sparra said:


> I really don't understand what your problem is ........ Your original post in this thread was not too optimistic either .......


Why? Because he isn't telling the OP to get rid of the dog immediately? Or is it because he is smart enough not to diagnose a dog online? There is no way that anyone can determine this dog is aggressive because it barked and nudged the baby. It's not hard to understand .


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## belladonnalily

And BTW, OP states on her other thread that 1yo is a nervy, poorly-bred dog. Anyone else want to have that around young children, let alone a newborn? While Grandma is getting drunk? I dont know...

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## llombardo

belladonnalily said:


> Oh wow I didnt realize this was the same as the grandma biting dog OP.
> 
> Sounds like the OP has some serious issues to manage in her home, Grandma being one of them. Just further reinforces my feeling that OP might just have too much on her hands. Drunk Grandma, 1yo dog that has issue with DG (not that I can blame) & now a confused adult GSD.
> 
> I think some people are just a glutton for punishment. Maybe rehome Grandma?
> 
> I know from past personal experience that friction in the home with the humans can cause all sorts of issues with dogs. This doesn't sound like a stable environment.
> 
> I do feel for the OP. But sometimes we make life harder than it needs to be.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I believe that Grandma is out of the picture since OP moved out of state?


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## llombardo

belladonnalily said:


> And BTW, OP states on her other thread that 1yo is a nervy, poorly-bred dog. Anyone else want to have that around young children, let alone a newborn? While Grandma is getting drunk? I dont know...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And yet the one year old is calm around the newborn. The dog in question with the baby is the older dog not the younger one.


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## sparra

llombardo said:


> Why? Because he isn't telling the OP to get rid of the dog immediately? Or is it because he is smart enough not to diagnose a dog online? There is no way that anyone can determine this dog is aggressive because it barked and nudged the baby. It's not hard to understand .


Go back and read his first post........pretty much said what everyone else is saying.......no need for anyone to throw the toys out of the cot and storm off .........
Why is it ok for you to diagnose the dog but nobody else? You seem very sure the dog is not aggressive and you haven't seen it........oh that's right.....you have inside information........hope you are right and something awful doesn't happen.


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## sparra

Just read the other thread........so much happening for this poor mum to deal with......drunk mother, nervy dog, new baby now other dog acting up and all on her own. I take my hat off to her and really hope things work out for the best. She should be enjoying her new baby, not worrying about all this other stuff.


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## llombardo

sparra said:


> Go back and read his first post........pretty much said what everyone else is saying.......no need for anyone to throw the toys out of the cot and storm off .........
> Why is it ok for you to diagnose the dog but nobody else? You seem very sure the dog is not aggressive and you haven't seen it........oh that's right.....you have inside information........hope you are right and something awful doesn't happen.


Yes I took the time to find out how certain things were worded. I am realistic and don't expect every dog to know what a baby is. I also have been in shelters and see how many dogs are given up because the owners don't bother. I have a dog that was given up this way, so yes i do believe a trainer is needed for peace of mind and no I will not put a label on this dog. There is nothing in this dogs history that would indicate aggressiveness ever. Any dog on this forum can hurt or kill a child. I'm sure there are other dogs that bark at kids but love them . The dog did not attempt to grab or bite the baby, the dog wanted to be closer and didn't know how to act. The dog has been able to be near the baby and walk away and ignore the baby. Introductions are do very important. The OP asked for help in doing this and no one offered anything besides the dog needs a new home. I have seen threads where dogs have ran out the door across the street and bit a child. This board deemed that as an accident and manageable. That dog reacted on its prey drive and should be considered dangerous, yet not recommended to be rehomed?


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## Blanketback

sparra said:


> I think he means the dogs in the photo were cat proofed unlike the dog in your story.......although there are quite a few dogs in that photo that look like they would love to eat that cat


Maybe the "_untrained "cat" proofed_" comment means: that he's saying that a dog with solid OB won't break a sit/stay command, regardless of the distraction? If that's the case, then the dog is only as good as whoever's watching it. Take the commands away and see what happens. If those dogs were let loose in a yard with that cat, left to their own devices, how many of them would ignore the cat?


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## llombardo

sparra said:


> Just read the other thread........so much happening for this poor mum to deal with......drunk mother, nervy dog, new baby now other dog acting up and all on her own. I take my hat off to her and really hope things work out for the best. She should be enjoying her new baby, not worrying about all this other stuff.


And yet she comes here for help and ends up defending herself about being a bad mom? There needs to be lots more compassion in this board IMO. She is doing everything she can to make it work and trying to stay positive. She knows her dog but can't read the dog because she is nervous to begin with. If the dog is truly aggressive then it needs to be rehomed, but it deserves the chance and she wants to give him that chance.


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## sparra

Look I get what you are saying.......but it still involves taking a risk.....you can't be annoyed at people who just wouldn't be willing to take a risk when there is a precious baby involved. I wouldn't take a risk.....you would.....David sounds like he would......I just think she has too much going on to take the risk.
I am out of this thread too .......enough said......has been raining here for two days.....sun is out tomorrow so time to get back to work.....


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## misslesleedavis1

Blanketback said:


> Maybe the "_untrained "cat" proofed_" comment means: that he's saying that a dog with solid OB won't break a sit/stay command, regardless of the distraction? If that's the case, then the dog is only as good as whoever's watching it. Take the commands away and see what happens. If those dogs were let loose in a yard with that cat, left to their own devices, how many of them would ignore the cat?


If It were mine, shiggs would be cuddling a cat she loves cats, dex would be terrified of cats as he has proven in the past and tyson would have the cat for dinner. 

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## llombardo

Blanketback said:


> Maybe the "_untrained "cat" proofed_" comment means: that he's saying that a dog with solid OB won't break a sit/stay command, regardless of the distraction? If that's the case, then the dog is only as good as whoever's watching it. Take the commands away and see what happens. If those dogs were let loose in a yard with that cat, left to their own devices, how many of them would ignore the cat?


That cat wouldn't stand a chance if those dogs were left to their own devices.


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## sparra

llombardo said:


> That cat wouldn't stand a chance if those dogs were left to their own devices.


Haha......that we can agree on


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## belladonnalily

llombardo said:


> And yet the one year old is calm around the newborn. The dog in question with the baby is the older dog not the younger one.


For now. 

At 1yo, I'd wager a guess that things could easily change there too. How much time can she possibly spend training 1yo right now? Mine is not nervy or poorly bred and I can't imagine how he would be if I had no trainer and little time to train.

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## Chip18

sparra said:


> I think he means the dogs in the photo were cat proofed unlike the dog in your story.......although there are quite a few dogs in that photo that look like they would love to eat that cat


LOL,Yeah I saw that, maybe a refresher course...for a couple of them still they all held station!


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## my boy diesel

.....


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## Sunflowers

llombardo said:


> it deserves the chance and she wants to give him that chance.


No animal who behaved that way would have "deserved" a chance in my household, especially since I was a sleep-deprived basket case at the time I had newborns.

See... we all give advice through the prism of what we are and what we have. 
The dog we own is nothing like the one she has, and we are nothing like her. 

We can argue all we want, but every situation is unique and we just don't know all the factors to say the OP is capable, or incapable, or whether or not the dog is trainable. Not to mention that we don't know anything other than what was posted by the OP.


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> See... we all give advice through the prism of what we are and what we have.
> The dog we own is nothing like the one she has, and we are nothing like her.
> Not to mention that we don't know anything other than what was posted by the OP.


Most of us do not know if our dogs are like this dog. Most of us are older and probably won't be introducing a newborn to our dogs anytime soon. I can see Midnite being and acting the same way as the OPs dog. I do know more then what was posted because I took the time to ask questions, that is what I'm trying to tell you guys.


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> No animal who behaved that way would have "deserved" a chance in my household, especially since I was a sleep-deprived basket case at the time I had OP.


What way? Barking at the baby? Whining at the baby? What way does everyone expect a dog to act that has never been around a newborn? Do people actually think that every dog will ignore a baby or not bark at a baby? That is not realistic at all. The majority of dogs will show interest in a baby and that level of interest should be determined by the owner.


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## wolfy dog

Well-trained dogs with excellent impulse control, which is different than cat-proofed. 
It looks like everyone has made their point clear and now this thread has evolved into a strange conversation, between people talking in circles, without further input from the OP.


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## Sunflowers

llombardo said:


> What way? Barking at the baby? Whining at the baby?What way does everyone expect a dog to act that has never been around a newborn? .


This way. Behaving like a stimulated predator. 

I would expect a curious sniff. What that dog did was not normal for a well balanced dog.



brebrehj said:


> . He tries to root the baby with his nose and barks at him. He goes crazy trying to get to the baby. . The "introductions" end with him being pulled back and having a wild look in his eye that is difficult to read, that I have only seen when he sees a cat.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## my boy diesel

interested and a bit excited but over the top crazy (as per the op) is not acceptable and is an indication of the dog interpreting the infant as prey

i find it interesting that this discussion which is basically become a bunch of arguing continues despite the op not having checked in for some four days

llombardo nobody has told anyone to euthanize this dog
rehoming the dog is not the worlds end and giving the dog a chance which you feel he deserves got him overstimulated and quickly into predator mode with the infant as prey

rehoming would make a lot of sense as it does not sound like either of the ops dogs are candidates for the most stable dog of the year

all anyone has said is get a professional on board and if you can not do that or will not do it then look at rehoming 
or if the professional feels it is too risky to rehome but only after seeking a professionals advice

i fail to see why you are so up in arms about this


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## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> Maybe the "_untrained "cat" proofed_" comment means: that he's saying that a dog with solid OB won't break a sit/stay command, regardless of the distraction? If that's the case, then the dog is only as good as whoever's watching it. Take the commands away and see what happens. If those dogs were let loose in a yard with that cat, left to their own devices, how many of them would ignore the cat?


Well "Stay" means "Stay" no grey area. You would have to call the school to find out if the dogs are actually "cat proof" or just well trained?

My dogs are "cat proof" they don't respond to cats in the environment period, every, end of story. If these dogs aren't "cat proof?" I suspect a simple no, leave it, stay or down would stop them.

A service dog, a K9 or certainly a bomb sniffing dog can't go "off task" to chase a cat! 

Not really a "mystery" it's called training. If you don't live with cats, I would imagine it would be harder to achieve a "cat proof' dog? 

Cat proofing has value to us "pet people" beyond the obvious. Cat proof dogs don't chase chase cat's! No cat chasing BS on walks! I have a pretty low threshold for "crap" behavior from my guys.


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## Sunflowers

my boy diesel said:


> rehoming would make a lot of sense as it does not sound like either of the ops dogs are candidates for the most stable dog of the year
> 
> 
> i fail to see why you are so up in arms about this


Because some people see rehoming as the worst thing that could happen to a dog. 

Others see it as a possible better situation for the dog. 

A dog will be happy and bond with anyone, as long as he is treated well and his needs are met. Dogs live in the moment and will not pine for the first owners for the rest of their lives.

What needs to be considered is the possibility that the dog could go to a better home, where he is not stressed and feels more relaxed and happy and gets more attention than could be had in the current situation with multiple kids and dogs and only one caretaker..


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## selzer

You can cat-proof without putting a human infant at risk. If you screw up and your dog really isn't cat-proofed, then the cat has a fighting chance at getting up high or out of the area. A human infant doesn't have a prayer. And if the cat is torn to pieces it would be really sad, but no one will go to jail, and the dog _might _not be euthanized. 

The risk is too great. 

I am kind of disappointed in David, for bowing out on a discussion because of the negativity. Discussions need various opinions to be expressed so the OP, who may still be reading, even if she is not posting, can make the best decision after considering all the responses.
Though with three tiny humans, and other critters, I don't know how she could be expected to spend a lot of time here.

In the end, it is the OPs baby, if she wants to look at some advice and say, that's crazy, that is what she needs to do. And look at other advice and say well, they have a point, that's what she needs to do. I don't think anyone should accuse her of being a terrible mother, but it is true that because we see our critters differently than other people do, we see their personalities, and in a sense, we see the good and often over look the bad stuff -- wasn't it David that said, he would never trust an owner's assessment of their own dog?

I ask the OP, to think about the reports of dogs that have attacked people, and how many of them say, they couldn't believe that their dog would ever do such a thing. Are they _all _lying to avoid prosecution? Or do some of them actually not believe that their dog was capable of something and were wrong?


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## David Winners

I haven't left the discussion, just the thread.

I'll be evaluating the dog myself if it's not done before I can get there.

Let the bashing continue.

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

David did you see the link I posted to Mary's website (gagsd) She's close by to the OP maybe she could help you and the OP out. 



David Winners said:


> I haven't left the discussion, just the thread.
> 
> I'll be evaluating the dog myself if it's not done before I can get there.
> 
> Let the bashing continue.
> 
> David Winners


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## David Winners

Yes, and thank you for that. I'm going to work on several options for trainers before I make the trip for sure. I will be contacting them this weekend when I have time.

She's going to get the help she needs one way or another.

David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.k. Good deal. 



David Winners said:


> Yes, and thank you for that. I'm going to work on several options for trainers before I make the trip for sure. I will be contacting them this weekend when I have time.
> 
> She's going to get the help she needs one way or another.
> 
> David Winners


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## SunCzarina

my boy diesel said:


> curious if anyone has looked at ops past postshttp://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/383202-my-1-year-old-bit-my-mom.html#post4688714


I did. Interesting to say the least.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> You can cat-proof without putting a human infant at risk. If you screw up and your dog really isn't cat-proofed, then the cat has a fighting chance at getting up high or out of the area. A human infant doesn't have a prayer. And if the cat is torn to pieces it would be really sad, but no one will go to jail, and the dog _might _not be euthanized.
> 
> The risk is too great.
> 
> I am kind of disappointed in David, for bowing out on a discussion because of the negativity. Discussions need various opinions to be expressed so the OP, who may still be reading, even if she is not posting, can make the best decision after considering all the responses.
> Though with three tiny humans, and other critters, I don't know how she could be expected to spend a lot of time here.
> 
> In the end, it is the OPs baby, if she wants to look at some advice and say, that's crazy, that is what she needs to do. And look at other advice and say well, they have a point, that's what she needs to do. I don't think anyone should accuse her of being a terrible mother, but it is true that because we see our critters differently than other people do, we see their personalities, and in a sense, we see the good and often over look the bad stuff -- wasn't it David that said, he would never trust an owner's assessment of their own dog?
> 
> I ask the OP, to think about the reports of dogs that have attacked people, and how many of them say, they couldn't believe that their dog would ever do such a thing. Are they _all _lying to avoid prosecution? Or do some of them actually not believe that their dog was capable of something and were wrong?


Someone else threw in a dog killing cat incident, so I responded to that.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> Yes, and thank you for that. I'm going to work on several options for trainers before I make the trip for sure. I will be contacting them this weekend when I have time.
> 
> She's going to get the help she needs one way or another.
> 
> David Winners


This is the response of someone who cares about the dog and the humans involved--not just content to debate the whole thing over and over again. JMHO.
Susan


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## llombardo

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> This is the response of someone who cares about the dog and the humans involved--not just content to debate the whole thing over and over again. JMHO.
> Susan


:thumbup:


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## selzer

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> This is the response of someone who cares about the dog and the humans involved--not just content to debate the whole thing over and over again. JMHO.
> Susan


True. 

And, at the same time, if most of us made the same offer, it would be extremely irresponsible. And many people might want to help both the dogs and the people, and in doing so, might do much more harm than good, because they may not realize that they really don't have the expertise they think they have. I don't feel qualified to tell anyone that their dog will be perfectly fine with their infant, if they do X, Y, Z, even if I see the dog in person.


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## Blanketback

Chip18 said:


> Someone else threw in a dog killing cat incident, so I responded to that.


It wasn't _just_ a "dog killing cat" incident, it was a question regarding prey drive (cat, in my case) which David was very generous to answer via PM. I'm still wondering why you quoted my post to insert than fabulous picture though, lol. 

Thank you for going above and beyond to help OP, David.


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## sparra

David Winners said:


> Yes, and thank you for that. I'm going to work on several options for trainers before I make the trip for sure. I will be contacting them this weekend when I have time.
> 
> She's going to get the help she needs one way or another.
> 
> David Winners


Good for you


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## carmspack

Blanketback said:


> I don't get what you're trying to tell me: what do you mean these are _untrained_ dogs, just sitting there watching a cat? Huh? And your dogs could do that too - ok, are they also untrained? What am I missing here?


that is a rather old picture , at least 20 years old.
I believe these are the fine members of London (UK) police k9 - Metpol .


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## belladonnalily

Thats awesome news! And very kind of you David!

Sincerely hoping to hear the best news possible and all ends happy for the family. 

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## Chip18

Thanks David!


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## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> It wasn't _just_ a "dog killing cat" incident, it was a question regarding prey drive (cat, in my case) which David was very generous to answer via PM. I'm still wondering why you quoted my post to insert than fabulous picture though, lol.
> 
> Thank you for going above and beyond to help OP, David.


"untrained dog" was over the top! Sorry not what I meant! 

20 years are not still an awesome photo!


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## Blanketback

The thing is Chip, what I was shown with that BC incident was that despite the fact the the dog was what I thought "perfect" around prey (my personal cats) she threw me for a loop when she wasn't under my thumb. And yet, when I tried to save that other cat, and _was_ right on top of her, she was completely zoned out to me. Not because she was blowing me off, either. Her focus was so intense that I wasn't even in the picture. This was my worry with OP's dog: that OP'd be just like me and believe that she had a good grip on her dog, but at some point this would fail. I have complete faith that David can assess her dog, and can also succeed in an area where I've already failed.


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## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> The thing is Chip, what I was shown with that BC incident was that despite the fact the the dog was what I thought "perfect" around prey (my personal cats) she threw me for a loop when she wasn't under my thumb. And yet, when I tried to save that other cat, and _was_ right on top of her, she was completely zoned out to me. Not because she was blowing me off, either. Her focus was so intense that I wasn't even in the picture. This was my worry with OP's dog: that OP'd be just like me and believe that she had a good grip on her dog, but at some point this would fail. I have complete faith that David can assess her dog, and can also succeed in an area where I've already failed.


I don't think it's prey drive myself but we'll see. 

BC/herder dog yeah, not really a fan myself. I can see that happening with those guys!

I've trained a couple, found them (females) to be very willfully, stubborn but very smart. I much prefer the working dog groups myself. 

Though my better half seems to be falling for...Dachshunds!!!


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## sehrgutcsg

David Winners said:


> I haven't left the discussion, just the thread.
> 
> I'll be evaluating the dog myself if it's not done before I can get there.
> 
> Let the bashing continue.
> 
> David Winners


David, _My puppy keeps running with sizzor's, can you stop here too >? :help:_

Good Job !!


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## misslesleedavis1

Lol are you making trips now David? Want to stop off in brooklin by any chance  jj 

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## David Winners

When I win the lottery, I'll be traveling around in my refitted AC/DC tour bus. I'll be sure to stop by!

I actually have some business down in that part of the country anyhow and would be willing to adjust my schedule to accommodate the OP. She hasn't got back to me in a few days though. I think she has been run off 

I will keep trying to get in contact with her though.

For anyone that thinks proofing a dog against it's natural behaviors is impossible, check out the Fama thread.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Why does the song, "Back in Black" pop into mind reading that?

You and Fama in the AC/DC bus!



I hope the OP sees your messages......





David Winners said:


> When I win the lottery, I'll be traveling around *in my refitted AC/DC tour bus*. I'll be sure to stop by!
> 
> I actually have some business down in that part of the country anyhow and would be willing to adjust my schedule to accommodate the OP. She hasn't got back to me in a few days though. I think she has been run off
> 
> I will keep trying to get in contact with her though.
> 
> For anyone that thinks proofing a dog against it's natural behaviors is impossible, check out the Fama thread.


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## brebrehj

Took a break for a while but here is an update.

Thor has been working with a trainer and is in side randomly throughout the day. It was determined that his behavior was an excited behavior not aggressive. 
He is closely monitored when inside but absolutely loves the baby and is fantastic with him.

He likes to kiss his feet and rest his head on baby's lap.

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## TinkerinWstuff

That's awesome news!


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## brebrehj

TinkerinWstuff said:


> That's awesome news!


Thank you and indeed it is. I'm stubborn and was in no way shape or form ready to give up on Thor or the situation. 

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## blackshep

Great update!


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## The Stig

Thank you for your update. It is never easy seeking advice online, because it usually turns ugly. I am glad it worked out for you and your family.

Some of the comments here... phew! But it is good to know there are those who are dedicated to helping instead of just flinging opinions and wild assumptions about. I was taken aback when someone went there re: the OP's personal life.


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## brebrehj

The Stig said:


> Thank you for your update. It is never easy seeking advice online, because it usually turns ugly. I am glad it worked out for you and your family.
> 
> Some of the comments here... phew! But it is good to know there are those who are dedicated to helping instead of just flinging opinions and wild assumptions about. I was taken aback when someone went there re: the OP's personal life.


It's always a touchy subject when children are involved. It was hard to read that I am a bad mother because I soooo desperately wanted this to work. Maybe initially I didn't take the right steps. I didn't want to lose my dog but I was prepared just in case. 

There was a lot more in the situation than people knew or understood (in regards to my older children)

-mom and dad split
-move to a new house and move to a new state being forced to leave their home, friends and father behind.
-new brother.
There were so many changes and this dog, Thor has been their best friend through it all. I wasn't willing to give up on Thor, my older children's relationship with him not to mention my own relationship with him.
Has it been exhausting caring for a new born, homeschooling a 4 and 6 year old along with trying like heck to get the situation under control?..absolutely and I will continue to work on the situation to continue to keep the peace every day so that my kids don't have to lose their best friend.
If alllllll of that makes me a bad mom I guess I can't win for trying lol.
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## glowingtoadfly

Great news!


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## brebrehj

Oh and in regards to my nervy dog with him, he is absolutely the best and has mellowed out tremendously since my son has come into the home

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## wolfy dog

brebrehj said:


> Took a break for a while but here is an update.
> 
> Thor has been working with a trainer and is in side randomly throughout the day. It was determined that his behavior was an excited behavior not aggressive.
> He is closely monitored when inside but absolutely loves the baby and is fantastic with him.
> 
> He likes to kiss his feet and rest his head on baby's lap.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Still scary to me. You will never be fast enough if he snaps.... I don't understand the "loves the baby". Kissing is close to his teeth.... I will sound pessimistic but there is a fragile newborn involved. At this stage I would not give him physical access to the baby but teach him that the baby is just "part of the furniture" and thus has to be ignored. Just my HO and realizing that I cannot see the entire picture/situation.


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## sparra

It is good to hear things are better. I too would always be cautious but then that is required with all dogs.
but given the start with him.....well you know....
I admire you......you have dealt with a lot .......I really hope it is smooth sailing from here on in


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## brebrehj

sparra said:


> It is good to hear things are better. I too would always be cautious but then that is required with all dogs.
> but given the start with him.....well you know....
> I admire you......you have dealt with a lot .......I really hope it is smooth sailing from here on in


Thank you and I agree I am very cautious but more relaxed, he was most definitely picking up on my anxiety and nervousness

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## Juliem24

Fantastic. So glad you were able to work through that, especially with all the rest of the stuff going on. I'm glad for your kids, too.


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## brebrehj

Juliem24 said:


> Fantastic. So glad you were able to work through that, especially with all the rest of the stuff going on. I'm glad for your kids, too.


Thank you 

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