# Using the E-collar



## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

Which is correct when you use the e-collar. 

I have used one before and I always trained giving a low nick stimulation after the command, if the dog failed to comply. 

I bought a new collar yesterday and read through the manual: which says to stimulate at low levels while you give the command and establish the relation between the stimulation and the command, then allow the dog to avoid the stimulation when he complies. 

The way in the manual seems to take a step back and not allow the dog to get right the way I already trained him. Is this a way of making the dog sharper to the command? or is it wrong all together?


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## BeautifulChaos (Aug 15, 2011)

To me, the first one is more correct. The way that I have always collar conditioned my dogs and was taught to do is to give the command, give the dog roughly 2 seconds to comply, then give the command a second time _while_ giving the collar correction.
So it would be:
"sit" 1, 2...
"SIT" + lowest possible stimulation until the very second that the dog begins to move into the sit, here, etc.

I'm wondering if this is what the manual was saying to do?


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I've always it done it after the dog has failed to comply as well.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

The second is what I have read to do online.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

LOU CASTLE - ARTICLES

Read it. Learn it. Apply it.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Dr. Teeth said:


> Which is correct when you use the e-collar.
> 
> I have used one before and I always trained giving a low nick stimulation after the command, if the dog failed to comply.
> 
> ...


 
I can't understand the "while".
The dog isn't given the opportunity to comply. the command is associated directly with a correction...??

I could understand "command" no comply "correction" repeat "command", of course this would be after the dog has already been shaped and clearly understands what is being asked of them.

No experience here with e collars though.

What 'command' are you training?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The command turns on the electric and the execution of the command turns the electric off.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> The command turns on the electric and the execution of the command turns the electric off.


Exactly. Everyone I train with...including myself *generally* use it this way. On continuous, not nick. 

For instance.....working on recall. Throw a treat, you say "FIDO HIER!" and on here the electric comes on and as they are turning to come book it back it comes off. 

I personally like this better than having to issue a correction for non-compliance. You're basically not giving the option for the dog to not comply using low level stimulation.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cowboy17 said:


> I can't understand the "while".
> The dog isn't given the opportunity to comply. the command is associated directly with a correction...??
> 
> I could understand "command" no comply "correction" repeat "command", of course this would be after the dog has already been shaped and clearly understands what is being asked of them.
> ...


You're not thinking about it in the right context. The stimuation is at a "working level" where the dog is not so uncomfortable it is truly being issued like what you would likely think of as a correction with the e-collar. No ZAP! Just a steady ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> *generally* use it this way.


 
Very good point. The e-collar is an amazing tool and can be used in myriad ways to accomplish myriad behaviors. 

My previous post was an effort to keep it as simple as possible for newer trainers.


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## BeautifulChaos (Aug 15, 2011)

I also use a continuous, not the nick.

The dog first learns how to _stop_ the correction, and then learns how to _avoid_ the correction.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

BeautifulChaos said:


> To me, the first one is more correct. The way that I have always collar conditioned my dogs and was taught to do is to give the command, give the dog roughly 2 seconds to comply, then give the command a second time _while_ giving the collar correction.
> So it would be:
> "sit" 1, 2...
> "SIT" + lowest possible stimulation until the very second that the dog begins to move into the sit, here, etc.
> ...


This is how I use it.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Exactly. Everyone I train with...including myself *generally* use it this way. On continuous, not nick.
> 
> For instance.....working on recall. Throw a treat, you say "FIDO HIER!" and on here the electric comes on and as they are turning to come book it back it comes off.
> 
> I personally like this better than having to issue a correction for non-compliance. You're basically not giving the option for the dog to not comply using low level stimulation.



This is what I have been taught as well.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

BeautifulChaos said:


> To me, the first one is more correct. The way that I have always collar conditioned my dogs and was taught to do is to give the command, give the dog roughly 2 seconds to comply, then give the command a second time _while_ giving the collar correction.
> So it would be:
> "sit" 1, 2...
> "SIT" + lowest possible stimulation until the very second that the dog begins to move into the sit, here, etc.
> ...





Syaoransbear said:


> This is how I use it.


With that method, it seems like you're giving the dog the option to not have to listen to the first command. Shouldn't you expect them to come when called the first time? 

That why I like lou's methods. You give the command and immediately give a stim. When the dog complies, stim is turned off. One command and that's it.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

BeautifulChaos said:


> The dog first learns how to _stop_ the correction, and then learns how to _avoid_ the correction.


Perhaps this is nit-picky terminology, but, to me, when the e-collar is used in this manner then it is not a correction. Rather, it is pressure. 

It is impossible for a dog to understand how to stop or avoid pressure until pressure is applied, but yes, he must first learn how to stop it then he can figure out how to avoid it. Once the dog learns how to turn off the pressure they can then figure out how to avoid it by turning it off before it can turn on. IE. executing commands quickly. And when I reference "quickly" I am not referring to "two seconds" as you said earlier. To me, this is about 1.98 seconds too long for the dog to respond to a command.


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## BeautifulChaos (Aug 15, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> With that method, it seems like you're giving the dog the option to not have to listen to the first command. Shouldn't you expect them to come when called the first time?
> 
> That why I like lou's methods. You give the command and immediately give a stim. When the dog complies, stim is turned off. One command and that's it.


Same results. The dog is still expected to come/sit/etc the first time. He doesn't have the option to not have to listen. 

I'll use the recall as my example in this.

It gives the dog the chance to either make a mistake, or the chance to be successful. If he comes immediately, great! He successfully avoided it. If he does not come right then, the stim is turned on and does not turn off until the dog begins to come.
The dog learns that if he doesn't comply immediately the first time a command is given, then something gets him in the neck (for lack of a better word). If he does come, then nothing gets him.

Both methods are quite similar in that the dog learns how to turn the stimulation on/off. The main difference that I see is that in the one that I use, the dog has the chance to avoid the stim.

If the results are the same, I say do what works for you.


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## BeautifulChaos (Aug 15, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> Perhaps this is nit-picky terminology, but, to me, when the e-collar is used in this manner then it is not a correction. Rather, it is pressure.
> 
> It is impossible for a dog to understand how to stop or avoid pressure until pressure is applied, but yes, he must first learn how to stop it then he can figure out how to avoid it. Once the dog learns how to turn off the pressure they can then figure out how to avoid it by turning it off before it can turn on. IE. executing commands quickly. And when I reference "quickly" I am not referring to "two seconds" as you said earlier. To me, this is about 1.98 seconds too long for the dog to respond to a command.


I agree with what you are saying. Perhaps I should have worded it better 
And yes, 2 seconds is quite the exaggeration. I, too, expect an immediate response to a command - given that the dog is physically capable of complying that quickly. (My poor Great Dane took several seconds of arranging her back legs to get her butt to go to the ground haha)

Either way, the expectations and results are the same.
In this case, I believe it is just preference of the trainer/handler/etc. 


ETA: Clearly I am not wording things well tonight. When I said "The main difference that I see is that in the one that I use, the dog has the chance to avoid the stim." I think I implied something there that I did not mean, nor did I want it to come off that way.
I meant during the initial stages of using the ecollar, in one method the dog is given the chance right then to avoid it, and in the other the dog learns to avoid it. 
...Is this making any sense? I think I should stop posting until I clear my thoughts enough to make an educated statement haha


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Dr. Teeth said:


> Which is correct when you use the e-collar.
> 
> I have used one before and I always trained giving a low nick stimulation after the command, if the dog failed to comply.
> 
> ...


Actually both techniques are used depending on the type of training. The thing you want to remember is the ecollar is an extension of the leash and collar. The more positive way of traing with an ecollar is command-nick if the dog fails to comply-praise and reward when the dog complies. Some old school schutzhund trainiers use the other method of stimulate the dog until the dog complies. This is more of a negative approach to training with and ecollar. I don't reccomend it unless your training a high drive insane dog that needs the stimulation to get the point. It all depends on the dog. I train the way you do. Has worked miricles for me. Also keep in mind that the ecollar is a negative reinforcment so you must counter the negative with a positve and praise and reward the dog when he completes the required command. I really love ecollars they are very useful tools when used correctly.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Go here to learn about the use of the e-collar. great site!

Modern Ecollar Training • Index page


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

suzzyq01 said:


> The more positive way of traing with an ecollar is command-nick if the dog fails to comply-praise and reward when the dog complies. Some old school schutzhund trainiers use the other method of stimulate the dog until the dog complies. This is more of a negative approach to training with and ecollar. I don't reccomend it unless your training a high drive insane dog that needs the stimulation to get the point. .


I don't think it's "old school" nor is it more negative. The levels I've seen everyone use for stimulate on the command are quite low--much lower than what is used for the "nick" or "continuous" correction for non-compliance. You're using a level in which the dogs is AWARE of the stimulation, but is not in discomfort. Again...the key word being "stimulate" and not "correct." Medo's working level with the e-collor is about an 8 or 9 (Dogtra 1900)....when we are using it as a "correction" in the sense he is not complying we START at a 14 and go up from there depending on what it is. But there are a couple dogs where I train where their "stimulation" level is a 1. If anything, I think this method is MORE positive than "BAM" correction if you do don't do it. I think of it as SHAPING a behavior using low level stimulation.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I wonder whether both methods can be used on the same dog? Combined as needed?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)




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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I haven't watched the video again yet, but I also have a question about E collars....

My boy has weak nerves. I want/need to proof his recall. But as soon as I use the vibrate on him he cowers and runs the other way. I have never used the stim on him (zapped him) and I am afraid that I will create a bigger problem if I do since he responds to the vibration the way he does. Note: He doesn't get far when he cowers and runs the other way due to having him leashed. 

With my girl, I was trying to use it to make her stop head butting my boy when he chases a toy. What she does is, she will have a toy in her mouth and when my boy goes after the ball I throw for him she bumps him with her head as if to try to stop him from getting a toy. I have not used a stim on her either, just the vibration. When I give her to vibration, she instantly drops her toy and turns to try to get the irritant off her neck. 

So, what would you all do in these situations?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How did you introduce the collar to your dogs, Zisso?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

There are 2 different ways to use the collar.

As a *PUNISHMENT* and *CORRECTION* when your dog doesn't obey (activate AFTER the command only when they ignore you).

OR

The way I prefer to *TEACH* and *TRAIN *my dog as a learning experience, and that is to activite with the continuous button when you give the command and the dog learns to 'turn it off' or prevent the collar activation at all. 

At this point on raising dog 4, I'm all about the teaching and training rather than the corrections and punishment. 

I know it's much easier to just activate and PUNISH the dog with the collar than TEACH by using the collar. So realize that's what most people do. Heck, read the directions that come with the collar? Or get a trainer to help? NO WAY.............. :help:

WELCOME TO LOU CASTLE.COM has alot of good TRAINING information using the collar.

Using the E-Collar To Train the Recall | Ty Brown

Sirius Dog


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you start training your pup the day it comes home.
you continue training, daily, several times a day.
when do you decide it's time for an e-collar to train?
an e-collar for training sounds like the gadget way out,
a short cut. whatever happened to doing it over and over
and over again. sit dog, zap; down dog, zap; come dog, zap;
that really works well for the human. i wonder how the dog feels about
it?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> I wonder whether both methods can be used on the same dog? Combined as needed?


Of course.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> you start training your pup the day it comes home.
> you continue training, daily, several times a day.
> when do you decide it's time for an e-collar to train?
> an e-collar for training sounds like the gadget way out,
> ...


Spoken like a person who does not understand training. An e-collar is not a short-cut, it is just another tool. In some circumstances it is the most appropriate tool.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep. I plan on using one for Pan's retrieve. I've been planning on this for quite some time and it won't happen for another year yet.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Yep. I plan on using one for Pan's retrieve. I've been planning on this for quite some time and it won't happen for another year yet.


Why are you waiting another year to make retrieves??


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Zisso said:


> My boy has weak nerves. I want/need to proof his recall. But as soon as I use the vibrate on him he cowers and runs the other way. I have never used the stim on him (zapped him) and I am afraid that I will create a bigger problem if I do since he responds to the vibration the way he does. Note: He doesn't get far when he cowers and runs the other way due to having him leashed.
> So, what would you all do in these situations?




This is not an uncommon reaction to the vibration. Some dogs ignore it, some dogs are startled by it and quickly recover and some dogs, like yours are "freaked out" by it. That's the bad news. The good news is that you may be able to desensitize the dog to it by wrapping a bandanna under the collar (that "tones down" the feeling) and then treating the dog after hitting the button. More good news – you don't need to use it and so this desensitization is unnecessary for most dogs. More good news – The stim is adjustable and there's no relation between how a dog reacts to the vibe and how it will react to the vibe. I'd suggest using my methods (others have supplied some links ... [thanks very much]) to teach the recall and the sit using the stim.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> Why are you waiting another year to make retrieves??


I have no clue how to do it this way and so far haven't found anyone near me that I trust. I know someone who did it with his dog who is similar to Pan in temperament, like the method and the result, but with the help of his TD and they are in TX. Pan is just so immature. All of the other components of the obedience routine are there so he's plenty far along (only old enough for his BH two days ago) but he's still such a puppy and not taking anything seriously. I already tried doing a forced hold a different way and it just wasn't enough pressure or the right amount of pressure. When I do the retrieves I want it to be something we can work on like twice a day for a few weeks and then have a fabulous retrieve but I'll need to find someone, or more likely take him somewhere and I can't do that in the near future. With Nikon it was just about teaching it and actually having a dog that can do schutzhund in any capacity but with Pan I would like to score and place.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

lhczth said:


> How did you introduce the collar to your dogs, Zisso?


So far it has been with the vibrate only and it has been with Nadia mostly-If she doesn't sit when told, I repeat the command while giving her a vibration. As soon as she sits the vibration stops and she is praised. When she is playing and has a toy in her mouth, and Z is going after a toy, if she charges after him, she gets the verbal command to stop with the vibration which stops as soon as she backs off.

With Zisso, I have done the same for say not sitting, and his settings are lower than hers, but as soon as he feels the vibration he drops what he is doing and goes as far away as he can with his head down low and tries to hide.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> This is not an uncommon reaction to the vibration. Some dogs ignore it, some dogs are startled by it and quickly recover and some dogs, like yours are "freaked out" by it. That's the bad news. The good news is that you may be able to desensitize the dog to it by wrapping a bandanna under the collar (that "tones down" the feeling) and then treating the dog after hitting the button. More good news – you don't need to use it and so this desensitization is unnecessary for most dogs. More good news – The stim is adjustable and there's no relation between how a dog reacts to the vibe and how it will react to the vibe. I'd suggest using my methods (others have supplied some links ... [thanks very much]) to teach the recall and the sit using the stim.


Thank you for the extra insight  But I am confused a little. In the first part I highlighted, are you saying that I may not need to use the E collar at all? Of my two dogs, the male has less OB on him than the female. This is my fault, but I felt it necessary to focus on the female as she has issues that could have been a liability for me when I first brought her home. I failed my male in the training dept on many levels. .. On the 2nd part highlighted, do you mean there is no relation to how a dog reacts to the vibe and how it will react to the stim(zap)?

I have your links book marked and am on my way to do some reading. Much appreciated!!!

Oh and when I took them out and about yesterday, I tested my male a bit. We went to the local park, and found us in an area where there was no one around. I dropped his leash and let him drag it around. He walked better with me when he was dragging his leash than when I am holding it. We engaged in some play, running around, hide and seek stuff and he was great! I was proud of him as I expected him to basically just do whatever he wanted...sniffing around and wondering on his own. Maybe he has benefited from the training I HAVE done with him after all.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Zisso said:


> Thank you for the extra insight But I am confused a little. In the first part I highlighted, are you saying that I may not need to use the E collar at all?


No, sorry for not being clearer. I meant that you don't have to use the vibe mode at all. (Of course no one ''needs" to use an Ecollar. We trained dogs for thousands of years before they were invented. But they're here now and they make most training go much faster and easier on both the trainer and the dog). 




Zisso said:


> On the 2nd part highlighted, do you mean there is no relation to how a dog reacts to the vibe and how it will react to the stim(zap)?


Yes. There is no correlation between the way that a dog reacts to anything from treats, to raised voices, to loud noises, to leash corrections and how he'll react to a low level stim from an Ecollar. I've found that many dogs that people call "sensitive" due to the fact that they very reactive (usually meaning overly submissive) to a loud voice or the presence of their owner, are perfect candidates for the Ecollar. Often leash corrections don't work well for such dogs because of this submission. But, since the Ecollar is impersonal, and the dog (if my methods are used) come to believe that the stim starts due to his actions, it's not apparent that the owner is pressing the button, the so dog responds better to it. 




Zisso said:


> Oh and when I took them out and about yesterday, I tested my male a bit. We went to the local park, and found us in an area where there was no one around. I dropped his leash and let him drag it around. He walked better with me when he was dragging his leash than when I am holding it.


This is not uncommon. Some "sensitive" dogs are like this because they go into submission when the owner gives them a correction. If the owner can't correct, they don't go into submission and so they're more relaxed. 




Zisso said:


> We engaged in some play, running around, hide and seek stuff and he was great! I was proud of him as I expected him to basically just do whatever he wanted...sniffing around and wondering on his own. Maybe he has benefited from the training I HAVE done with him after all.


When there are no distractions present many dogs with a little OB training are very good. It's when the distractions arise that training is tested.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Thank you for your responses. Just sent you a pm, but wanted to elaborate on something.

My male has been improving in areas such as distractions...baby steps, but it is due to my reluctance to 'test' the waters. I have a fear that some day my dogs might cause harm to someone else's pet, so I rarely take chances. Last week, with both dogs at the park, I had my male jump up on a stump, had my female sitting at the base of the stump, and had dropped the males leash to take a picture. A gentleman was passing by with his small dog. I continued to take pictures and did not pick up my males leash. He held his sit stay on the stump. He watched the little dog, but held his place there until I released him.

I am, admittedly, the biggest draw back to my dogs progress due to my reluctance to take chances such as this. So when we take these baby steps, I tend to beam with pride. Maybe it is that I am proud of myself for taking a chance, but I feel the pride in my dogs for behaving appropriately.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Zisso said:


> I feel the pride in my dogs for behaving appropriately.


As well you should. When you take the time to train your dog and he behaves as you want in the face of distractions, you should be beaming!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Dang it....I did some E collar work with my dogs today. My boy was on vibe at 15 (of 100) and when he felt it, he tried to run to hide. 

Back to reading Lou's site to see how I can stop that!

On the other hand, Nadia does a fairly good Fuss when she is wearing her collar. Also only on vibe at 15. She is also learning Bleib for when I throw a toy.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I did exactly what Lou told me to do. Worked a charm. I work my male only on electric as its the only correction he does well with in protection (as in not putting his defensive drive through the roof)

I have a collar for my female, but presently work her only on a fursaver using my hands and voice for correction. I use th ecollar if she is being stupid with blinds, blowing me off to engage the helper, and downing at a distance


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I am just using the E collar for stuff around the house at the moment. I figure if my male is trying to shut down(run and hide) with a level 15 vibe he would do the same with a shock wouldn't he? 

Here is an example: I tossed the toy and he started to bring it back. Giving him praise all the way. He is great about bringing the toy back. Once I get it back, he starts jumping up to try to steal it away. I tell him no once and bump him away but he does it again. So I tell him no with a vibe. He runs into the kennel-avoidance. The whole point of the exercise was to stop the jumping when I have the toy. Each time he ran to hide(I shut the kennel gate, so next time he found his travel crate opened in the shed) I would bring him back. 

Right there, I don't know if I should be praising when I bring him back? For this time, I told him 'come' as I was bringing him back. I don't want to do something to shut him down and fear that the shock would do that in such a way that he might not recover since he is this bad with a vibe.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I shouldn't have used that word in the sense that I did. What I should have said I guess is that he is fearful of the vibe and runs away. I was just reading Lou's articles again. Will read them every morning before we go out to train to keep it all fresh in my mind


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Zisso said:


> I am just using the E collar for stuff around the house at the moment. I figure if my male is trying to shut down(run and hide) with a level 15 vibe he would do the same with a shock wouldn't he?
> 
> Here is an example: I tossed the toy and he started to bring it back. Giving him praise all the way. He is great about bringing the toy back. Once I get it back, he starts jumping up to try to steal it away. I tell him no once and bump him away but he does it again. So I tell him no with a vibe. He runs into the kennel-avoidance. The whole point of the exercise was to stop the jumping when I have the toy. Each time he ran to hide(I shut the kennel gate, so next time he found his travel crate opened in the shed) I would bring him back.
> 
> Right there, I don't know if I should be praising when I bring him back? For this time, I told him 'come' as I was bringing him back. I don't want to do something to shut him down and fear that the shock would do that in such a way that he might not recover since he is this bad with a vibe.


Nope, no correlation. My female was horrified by the vibe at first where my male was just curious as to what was buzzing on his neck. Took weeks of just working vibe and treating to *make* it a positive marker for my female. No training involved, just lots of vibe->treat, vibe->treat. Now when it vibes she expects payment once services are rendered. She takes much higher stim than my male does... and shrugs it off. My male works around 8 in lower drive OB, rarely more than ~25 in protection (once went to 36 because he was getting way too nutty and in fight drive, and electric seems the only thing that can calm him.. voice, prong, hands, etc all make it worse). Female needs ~16 in OB, sometimes as high as ~50 in protection to even realize I'm there.

You're using the vibe as a negative thing... a warning that worse is to come, right? I use it as a positive marker. Stim is my negative.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Zisso said:


> I shouldn't have used that word in the sense that I did. What I should have said I guess is that he is fearful of the vibe and runs away. I was just reading Lou's articles again. Will read them every morning before we go out to train to keep it all fresh in my mind


Decide what you want the vibe to be first.. many use it as a warning, some as a recall. Not my preference. For me its a positive marker. That way, I can both encourage or discourage behavior at a distance and in an impersonal way.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> You're using the vibe as a negative thing... a warning that worse is to come, right? I use it as a positive marker. Stim is my negative.


 Not really because I have never ever used the stim at all. The only thing I have used is the vibe. I don't know how they could possibly know worse is to come when they have never felt the stim.

I will try to use it as a positive marker from now on. I am so hesitant to use the stim at all on my boy who wants to run and hide every time he feels it vibe. I am afraid that if I try to use the vibe as a positive with him, like 'vibe-treat' that he won't take the treat, because he will try to run off before he has the chance to even try to take it. Even if I use a short leash, his first reaction is to run as soon as he feels the vibe. So say I have a treat, ask him to sit and he doesn't...so he doesn't her the treat. The next time I give him the command, should I hold him in place with the leash & stim him to get compliance and then vibe him as he gets the treat? 

My female is totally different-she pays attention and performs beautifully when she has the collar on. Period. Once in awhile she will not release a toy and might see me reaching in my pocket for the remote, then instantly drops the toy. But her focus is beautiful in heel position and she pays attention to staying in heel position which was a problem before.


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