# Bad News from the breeder



## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

I recently got some bad news from my girl’s breeder. Her mother was recently euthanized due to mammary glad tumor that was cancerous. 
I was told a lot of things that turned out to be a lie two years ago and instead of fighting in court over my deposit, I brought my girl home anyways. Too make a long story short I should have done better research at the beginning instead of trusting someone who turned out to be very unethical. 

Here we are 2 years and 4 months later and I get the news that grace has been euthanized. My question is what steps can I take to help my girl beat the odds. So far she’s very active and healthy, no lumps or bumps can be felt by me or the vet. And one important question is if I get her fixed now will that help her chances any? I didn’t get her fixed because I was advised to wait till two by the vet. She has not had any puppies either.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Genetics are genetics...but IMO She's over 2 years anyway so... Yes ... get her spayed now and you'll decrease her chances of getting that type of cancer.....btw- kudos to your vet that can be rare to find one that by the age of 6 months is not giving the spay/neuter speech.....


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A retired (holistic, accredited clinic) said that the protection of spay against mammary cancer is gone after the first heat. Most cancers can be removed with good outcomes. Most...not all of course. The remaining issue is pyometra, especially close pyo but if you know your dog well and the signs and are alert about the slightest behavior changes, then a spay will most likely get her well.
Enjoy your life with your dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with the spay. What does your vet say about it?


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

The vet recommended spaying as well. She said it couldn’t hurt but was very firm with me that detection is key.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

My 9yr old GSD had a mammary tumor. It was found when she was about 2-4 (don’t know her true age, the vet estimated 2-4 when I got her). At that point, it was not causing any discomfort or pain, and was benign. At the age of 9, it started to grow and become uncomfortable for her when she would lay down. We had the tumor removed and had her spayed. She’s doing great! I know it’s much easier to say than do, but don’t stress until there is something to stress about!

My girl had been a BYB breeding bitch prior to me getting her, and she had been bred at every cycle, including her first. The vet couldn’t tell me if it was the litters that caused it, or her not being spayed. Why take the chance? She’s past the age of maturity for a female GSD. I’d go with the spay.


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

Supposedly colostrum has cancer fighting properties. Could be given as a daily supplement.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

At the first sign of any tumors in middle age, I would consider removing the entire mammary string on that side -- it's all the nipples and the "plumbing" connecting them. It's several thousand dollars, as it's a big, complex surgery. I wouldn't do it preventatively but I would not hesitate to do later in life at the first sign of a tumor.

We've had two in rescue that had tumors removed that came back benign that were dead within a year or two when additional tumors formed in the same area that weren't benign. Both had localized surgery removing just the tumor -- not the bigger surgery removing the whole string. I now think more aggressive surgery is the better judgment call, after seeing this happen to two different middle-aged dogs.

I would also talk to your vet about something like EverPup (from the maker of ApoCaps and one of the vet authors of the Dog Cancer Survival Guide).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> The vet recommended spaying as well. She said it couldn’t hurt but was very firm with me that detection is key.


 :surprise: It does hurt so why have her go through major surgery just because "it wouldn't hurt?" $$$?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, I would trust your vet on the spay here. The literature shows a significant benefit to spaying before 2.5 years of age. While the most benefit is accrued if done before the first heat, it's an error to assume that because you're not getting the most benefit, you must be getting none. You're still right there at the edge of the beneficial window for mammary cancer, so I would get 'er done and hope you capture some of the protection -- even if it's not as much as it would have been at the time of the first heat, it's still taking down risk. 

If you dig into the veterinary literature, at least according to one study, there does also appear to be some protective effect to spaying even after the second heat because spayed dogs overall (even spayed as adults) have increased survival time if they end up with malignant tumors and were spayed at least two years before the diagnosis. 

This article summarizes the veterinary research on the subject:

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/prognosis-treatment-canine-mammary-tumors

Keeping your dog lean is also critical -- there's a correlation between obesity in dogs and mammary cancer. High-fat diets also appear to raise risk.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

Magwart said:


> OP, I would trust your vet on the spay here. The literature shows a significant benefit to spaying before 2.5 years of age. While the most benefit is accrued if done before the first heat, it's an error to assume that because you're not getting the most benefit, you must be getting none. You're still right there at the edge of the beneficial window for mammary cancer, so I would get 'er done and hope you capture some of the protection -- even if it's not as much as it would have been at the time of the first heat, it's still taking down risk.
> 
> If you dig into the veterinary literature, at least according to one study, there does also appear to be some protective effect to spaying even after the second heat because spayed dogs overall (even spayed as adults) have increased survival time if they end up with malignant tumors and were spayed at least two years before the diagnosis.
> 
> ...


Tomorrow I’m going to call about setting up the spay. I wasn’t going too have her spayed at all but if it COULD save her I’ll do it. I would consider the whole mammary string if I was in better financial shape (.getting there ) so maybe like one person said in the future if something is found. I know it’s painful but I want to give her the best quality of life she can have and her health is my #one concern.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> Tomorrow I’m going to call about setting up the spay. I wasn’t going too have her spayed at all but if it COULD save her I’ll do it. I would consider the whole mammary string if I was in better financial shape (.getting there ) so maybe like one person said in the future if something is found. I know it’s painful but I want to give her the best quality of life she can have and her health is my #one concern.


Huh? Does your dog have a confirmed cancerous mammary tumor? If not, why in the world would you consider removing her mammary chains? 
My dog had a small cancerous mammary tumor removed at 3 yo. I had her spayed at the same time. I did not have her mammary chain removed just in case. She is fine. If I ever get another bitch that won't be bred she'll be spayed around 2 yo.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

When my eldest's full sister (litter mate) died of cancer (not mammary), my vet and I agreed on a program of monitoring. You might want to consider that before rushing to surgery.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would spay. 

Her dam had to be euthanized due to mammary cancer. Do you know how old she was? 

Spaying before or just after the first heat cycle is supposed to be the best preventative for mammary cancer. After the second heat cycle it is a little less. I think you may still have some benefit in doing this. 

Normally, I worry about the increased risk of other types of cancer, that often effect younger dogs. But your dog has a much increased risk of mammary cancer, so spaying now, might kind of cancel that increase of risk, and take you back down to a normal risk. 

She's had hormones through growth, and I think that is important too. 

And please be a little more considerate of your breeder. She did not have to call you and tell you the dam died of mammary cancer. She did that so you could make a better decision for your puppy. Your frustrated because your puppy is living in fallen world, where there is disease and death. From wherever you got your puppy that would the case. 

No breeder breeds bitches with mammary cancer to create puppies that have it. They found out the bitch had it by taking her the vet when they found a symptom. They chose to euthanize. And then they let you know. There is nothing unethical in that. If some things happened prior. Well, no one is perfect. I think folks on these sites expect the impossible. 

They want breeders to be available 24/7, and to have nose on the puppies 24/7. But they do not want them to live off of the sales of puppies. They want people to do all kinds of trials and shows and work with their dogs, but not make any of that work come out in the price of the puppy. They are all concerned about the price, but if the breeder talks money at all, then she's a fiend. And, they expect the dogs to live forever. If the dog runs in front of the car, it was due to poor temperament because of genetics. 

I have read posts here where the people came and saw some grass clippings in the water dish, and thought that was a huge red flag. Sometimes I think folks think the puppies will poop golden nuggets and be 100% house trained at 8 weeks old. 

There are no guarantees with live critters. You can have a warranty on hips and elbows, some warranty anything genetic for period of time --1-2 years. And others warranty temperament. Often they have a list of what you can and can't do with your dog with voiding your warranty. But in reality, the only guaranty is that unless your pup meets with a tragic, fatal accident, it is going to get some form of disease that will kill it if you do not put it out of its pain. That is your guaranty. Good breeders try to breed for longevity. But no breeder knows their young stud dog is going bloat and die after producing 4 litters with two bitches. 

If your male is going strong and producing litters at age 9 that's great, but bitches, you can wait only so long before you breed them, and if they get hemangiosarcoma at age 9 there was no way of knowing that when the bitch was 4 and 5 when she was bred. That bitch's daughters that I kept lived to be almost 13 and almost 14, another just turned 13. There was no of knowing I would get longevity from them. 

Cancer is not something that you can totally eliminate by genetics. Or it would be gone. Your dog may get mammary cancer, and it may not. It may not have that problem at all. Spaying may reduce the risk. I'd do it.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@selzer, I 100% agree, with all you posted. Us dogs owners want the sun and the moon, at the price of a boat ride. Having Lykas puppies woke me up to just how hard it is to raise a litter, and the time, worry, and effort is often tossed away when something goes wrong. I had one person come to look at the puppies, and because one had pooped between the last clean up and their arrival (5 minutes max), they posted on social media that I kept the puppies in horrible dirty condition, and just was in it for the money. Yeah, didn’t breed her myself, and I didn’t take any money from those that paid the teenager I got them from. 

I’m not a breeder, will never be a breeder, and having Lyka’s litter just cemented that decision for me. It was crazy hard work. I couldn’t imagine doing it full time, and having to deal with the sun and moon owners. Huge props to those that do breed ethically, and still have time for trials and titles. They are the ones that deserve the sun and moon!


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

I had a show lab growing up that developed mammary tumors later in life (around 11). I think I mentioned it here before, but I don't remember if they were benign or not. She was also intact up until this point. We removed the whole mammary chain - it was expensive, took a long time to heal, and now that I'm an adult - I wonder if the surgery was the right option at her age. She was spayed while under too. Once it did heal though, she lived another 5-ish years before finally dying of old age.

I agree with Selzer - it happens. No reason to be angry/upset with the breeder. She has already gone beyond what I would have expected from most breeders by reaching out to tell you the dam died due to cancer.


I would go forward with a spay if I had no intention to breed the bitch. It practically eliminates the fear of pyometra.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

selzer said:


> I would spay.
> 
> Her dam had to be euthanized due to mammary cancer. Do you know how old she was?
> 
> ...


I know that you can’t breed out cancer but I found out all kinds of things from the vet that took care of my girls mom and unethical is the right word for these people. Yes they contacted me to let me know but at that they were still lying. Her mother was four years old and to the vets knowledge had been bred every cycle. Grace had four cycles a year just like my girl. The breeder said grace was seven when put down. Which can’t be true since she was born in 2015 I registered my girl and that is listed as the dams date of birth. That’s besides the point but yes I agree getting her fixed is the first step and I set the appointment up today. She will be spayed September 9. 

To the person worried I’m going to have the whole mammary chain removed, that will be a last option, I will not put her through that on just the possibility. This is heartbreaking for me and I’m probably over thinking and stressing for nothing but I’m scared. My dogs are no different than my child and I love both unconditionally. 

I also want to say thank you to everyone for the thoughts and opinions. I will be keeping this post updated as we progress


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

I’m not rich but money has never been a concern for a healthy animal. Im just calling it like I see it a bitch that is bred from her first heat to having a litter two months before being put down at the age of four. Maybe uneducated is more appropriate than unethical. I don’t think she’s a bad person just don’t think they need to be breeding German Shepherds, or any dog or animal if your goal is anything other than improving the breed.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Pet insurance! You need good pet insurance before anything is ever found on YOUR dog. Get a policy without a limit on coverage, as cancer is expensive (my dog with Melanoma is pretty much in remission, but it took over $10,000 to get us there, and we've got about $1500 to go to finish out one more year of staging and final treatments....his insurance paid 90%).


Tell your vet to keep the medical record clean and clear for future insurance claims re there being no sign of cancer and the spay is purely preventative/elective. You'll want that in the record later.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't know if any surgery involving the reproductive system, will be covered by pet insurance. HP doesn't cover spay or neuter.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

The point is not to insure to cover the spay (that's never covered), it's to insure to cover FUTURE cancer diagnosis/surgery/treatment because OP has mentioned cost-sensitivity to major surgery.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> I agree getting her fixed is the first step and I set the appointment up today. She will be spayed September 9.


This is the right thing to do. Please let us know how she does.

I am sorry the breeder lied to you, and I would be mad about it too. Been there too many times myself.



Shevasdwish17 said:


> I didn’t get her fixed because I was advised to wait till two by the vet.


The other person you should be mad at is your vet. Your vet must have known what any vet student knows:

"The risk of a dog developing a mammary tumor is 0.5% if spayed before their first heat (approximately 6 months of age), 8% after their first heat, and 26% after their second heat."

"In female dogs, 50% of mammary tumors are malignant."

From:

http://www.acvs.org/small-animal/mammary-tumors

We went through the dog breast cancer thing when we took in a 12-year-old GSD that the rescue group that placed her didn't want back, because who would be stupid enough to adopt a 12-year-old dog? (We were, of course.) The anti-spay/neuter folks would have loved her owner--he never had her spayed. So she came to us with breast cancer and the beginning of pyometra. We had her spayed immediately so the pyometra didn't kill her. Then the surgeons got to work on the breast cancer. They removed the tumor she came with and part of the mammary chain next to it. We went nuts doing breast exams on what was left and so we caught the breast cancers that popped up when they were smaller than BB's. She ended up with four surgeries that totally removed both mammary chains, and, yes, these were brutal. But she was a happy dog when it was over and lived a good year. She was finally euthanized because of hip dysplasia that was so severe that it couldn't be helped surgically and the pain meds weren't working anymore. So much for not spaying a dog to prevent hip dysplasia.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Magwart said:


> Pet insurance! You need good pet insurance before anything is ever found on YOUR dog.


This is a really good idea. I signed Cava up with Healthy Pets shortly after we brought her home. I have the $250 per year deductible/80% coverage plan, but there are others. It will not cover routine care (vaccinations, exams, etc.) or elective surgery like spays or neuters, but will cover practically everything else. It takes effect 30 days after you sign your dog up, and as Magwart said, anything pre-existing won't be covered so you want clean medical records. They will ask for your vets records, including chart notes, before they start processing claims, so best not to mention any concerns about future mammary cancer based on her dam's diagnosis.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

HP effective date is 2 weeks from sign up. I just checked Faren's so I known when I can do hips and elbows. Signed up 11/2, effective date 11/16.

Is there a documented genetic link with canine mammary cancer?


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## Sabre's Mom (Jul 27, 2018)

I have Nationwide Whole Pet with Wellness, and that did cover 90% of my dogs laparoscopic spay & pexy after my $250 deductible.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Is there a documented genetic link with canine mammary cancer?


Excellent question. It would be surprising if there weren't, given the genetic links with human breast cancer. There is research that indicates a genetic link in dogs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19887619

http://www.americanveterinarian.com/news/humans-and-dogs-share-mammary-cancer-genes


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabre's Mom said:


> I have Nationwide Whole Pet with Wellness, and that did cover 90% of my dogs laparoscopic spay & pexy after my $250 deductible.


I would love it HP would pay for the pexy! I'm having two dogs done this year. I would never make it to the vet in time


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What is "pexy"?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> What is "pexy"?


It prevents torsion if your dog gets bloat. It fixes the stomach to muscles (I believe). Im considering it for my dog since he is sitting at about 98lbs and drinks about 50% of air when he drinks water and belches quite a bit. When I was 19 (10,00 years ago) I had a GSD die of torsion in front of me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> I know that you can’t breed out cancer but I found out all kinds of things from the vet that took care of my girls mom and unethical is the right word for these people. Yes they contacted me to let me know but at that they were still lying. Her mother was four years old and to the vets knowledge had been bred every cycle. Grace had four cycles a year just like my girl. The breeder said grace was seven when put down. Which can’t be true since she was born in 2015 I registered my girl and that is listed as the dams date of birth. That’s besides the point but yes I agree getting her fixed is the first step and I set the appointment up today. She will be spayed September 9.
> 
> To the person worried I’m going to have the whole mammary chain removed, that will be a last option, I will not put her through that on just the possibility. This is heartbreaking for me and I’m probably over thinking and stressing for nothing but I’m scared. My dogs are no different than my child and I love both unconditionally.
> 
> I also want to say thank you to everyone for the thoughts and opinions. I will be keeping this post updated as we progress



Hi there, I think you are wrong about something here that may make you feel differently about your breeder and your pup: The numbers, the date on your bitch's registration papers are not the sire and dam's birthdate. They are the date their names were entered into the stud book. This happens when they register their first litter. 

It sounds like your bitch's dam registered her first litter in 2015, which would have been at age 3 if she died in 2019 at age seven. I don't think your breeder would lie about this. To register a litter a bitch has to be a certain age, I think it's 12 months, though it may be 18 months. Evenso, she had to be at least 5 years. 

Also, the vet is being very unprofessional to speak disparagingly about a client. I have been fortunate to have a relationship with my clinic for 36 years or so, long before I started breeding. And for some stuff, I go to a clinic that has a reproductive department. But I have also experienced bias from other places. Many vets do not like breeders or breeding dogs, and can have prejudice against them. This vet has told you things he can't know. If she is bringing the bitch in every heat cycle, or every pregnancy even, she is doing much more than she needs to. 

I think your breeder is not as bad as you think. 

But look at the dog you have. Do you like her? Do you love her? Can you have fun with her? Do you enjoy her? If you do, who cares where she came from? She doesn't. If you answered no to any one of those questions than drop her off at a shelter. Because she deserves to be cherished. And, there is nothing worse for a dog than to be kept by someone who is doing it out of some ridiculous obligation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> I’m not rich but money has never been a concern for a healthy animal. Im just calling it like I see it a bitch that is bred from her first heat to having a litter two months before being put down at the age of four. Maybe uneducated is more appropriate than unethical. I don’t think she’s a bad person just don’t think they need to be breeding German Shepherds, or any dog or animal if your goal is anything other than improving the breed.


This isn't right. The bitch is most likely seven years old like the breeder said. The dates on the registration certificate for sire and dam are the dates the dogs were listed in the stud book, the dates they registered their first litter, not their birthdate. 

We don't know that she was bred on her first heat either. The person giving this information may not have known when her first heat was. It certainly sounds like the vet is unprofessional to talk about a client to another person. 

As for improving the breed, in whose opinion? It's a terrible reason to breed. That is how we have incredible ski-slopes and dogs with no off-switch. People are "improving" the breed, when what we ought to be doing is breeding to the standard, which is maintaining the breed. We should be breeding for health and temperament, but those should be givens. 

I don't know who this breeder is, but I think that there are some things that are misunderstood. They appear to be lies, when they are clear misunderstandings. Like the dates on the registration certificate. Anyone can tell you that what I said is true, they are not the birthdates. And, since there is little difference between 5 years and 7 years, I doubt the breeder lied at all about the age. She certainly did not have to call and let the owner of the puppy know this information. 

We do not breeder-bash on this site for a reason, it is so quick for these "misunderstandings" to spiral into making the person out to be some kind of monster. That is not the entire reason. But we have to try to not jump to conclusions, which is so easy to do.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

selzer said:


> Shevasdwish17 said:
> 
> 
> > I know that you can’t breed out cancer but I found out all kinds of things from the vet that took care of my girls mom and unethical is the right word for these people. Yes they contacted me to let me know but at that they were still lying. Her mother was four years old and to the vets knowledge had been bred every cycle. Grace had four cycles a year just like my girl. The breeder said grace was seven when put down. Which can’t be true since she was born in 2015 I registered my girl and that is listed as the dams date of birth. That’s besides the point but yes I agree getting her fixed is the first step and I set the appointment up today. She will be spayed September 9.
> ...


Thank you for your response and you may be correct about the dates but there were other lies as well but like I said that isn’t the point. She is part of my family and will be for ever how long we have together. I have no obligation to her and would never treat her as anything other than a cherished family member. I love my child and my dogs unconditionally and will do whatever is needed to make sure my family is happy and healthy. I will be considering all of the advise that has been given. I am not the person to drop any animal at the shelter. When said animal comes into my life for whatever reason I make it work the best I can. 

128 puppies in four years from 2015 to 2019 whether she was born in 2015 or not she was still over bred. I don’t know where this figure came from only repeating info. You mostly certainly could be right about hating breeders though. The vet was very forthcoming with this info and would have talked more if I had continued. I won’t be using her anyways because she was unprofessional. I never once said these people were bad Definitely not in it for the breed though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

32 puppies per year??? That bitch should be in the Guiness book of world records, and I want to know what they are feeding her. A litter of 8 every three months. Not possible. It just isn't possible. A bitch is pregnant for 9 weeks. Then she has the puppies for eight weeks. her body just wouldn't do that. It can't. Even with meds to bring her into heat, and stripping the puppies off of her at four weeks, she couldn't maintain the condition, and without it, she would start having very small litters or be dry. 

I don't know who is telling you that she had 128 puppies in four years, but there is some serious exaggerating going on. 

My best producer, started having puppies at age four and had her last litter at age 8. She had 39 puppies total, in five litters. 

I 'd have to see it to believe it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The breeder may have produced 128 puppies in 4 years with multiple bitches, and that wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility or even make her a terrible breeder. 32 puppies per year, that's 3-4 litters. 

And breeding a bitch twice a year, there are reproductive vets that say that that is perfectly fine. It is not like a person dropping a kid every other year (normal). Women are pregnant 9 months, not 9 weeks. And parents have to take care of their kids for 18-40 years. The bitch generally has her pups for 8 weeks. So it isn't really terrible to breed back to back, but continuous breeding back to back will degrade the bitch's condition and litter size and increase puppy mortality.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

selzer said:


> Shevasdwish17 said:
> 
> 
> > I’m not rich but money has never been a concern for a healthy animal. Im just calling it like I see it a bitch that is bred from her first heat to having a litter two months before being put down at the age of four. Maybe uneducated is more appropriate than unethical. I don’t think she’s a bad person just don’t think they need to be breeding German Shepherds, or any dog or animal if your goal is anything other than improving the breed.
> ...


this post isn’t to bash anyone I want advice on the best possible course of action for my dog. I have received that and then some. I only told my side of the story. I didn’t mention any names and I won’t. Like I said I don’t consider them bad just won’t do business with them or recommend them. I didn’t mean to offend you or come off like i was saying anything negative about breeding dogs. I can’t and won’t say the information from the vet is the gospel but she was unprofessional I agree on that which is why I won’t be doing business with her either. Have already made the spay appointment at my regular vet for September the 9 and will go from there. Also I am going to be looking into insurance as well


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

1) Your dog doesn’t have cancer, that great news. I was dancing under the stars when I found out Lyka’s was benign. You’re acting like you’ve already lost your dog to it.

2) whether you care to admit it or not, you’re breeder bashing. Not by name, which would quickly get the info deleted by an admin anyway, but you’re still harping on everything “wrong” the breeder did, all coming from a biased vet.

3) when your complaints are explained by other members with breeding experience, you deflect and come back with more outrageous claims. You got your answer to your question in the first 3-4 posts. Yet you continue to post more slander.

4) if you don’t want to come off like your dog is second to the “horrors” the breeder supposedly committed, maybe people wouldn’t assume you feel like your dog is lessor or no longer desirable because of this.

5) Report the vet to the board. Sharing ANY clients information is illegal, and breaks both the law, and the code of ethics they are held to. If any vet treating any of my dogs started gossiping about other clients or their pets, especially with knowledge of who they are talking about, I would walk out of the office right then and there. If she is bashing clients, she isn’t a true veterinarian, she just plays one, and not very well at that! 

6) I never thought I would find someone as detail driven, over thinking, and surviving on stress as much as I do, but then I found you! Take it from someone who knows, let it go. (Do you wanna build a snowman). Sorry, that song always pops up when I tell anyone to let it go. Disney ruined that phrase ?. But seriously, let go of what you can’t change, it is harming your health in physically unnoticeable ways. Your dog is healthy, a spay can give her a better chance. That’s is. That’s all you need to focus on. I got some of my brood from crap circumstances, and I get angry over what people do to dogs, but it’s not going to change anything in the long run. 

7) listen to @selzer, she’s a breeder, and is giving you very sounds advice. She isn’t mocking you, she is explaining that wherever you are getting your information from, is either not giving full details, or intentionally misleading you. 

Just enjoy what you have OP.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

selzer said:


> The breeder may have produced 128 puppies in 4 years with multiple bitches, and that wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility or even make her a terrible breeder. 32 puppies per year, that's 3-4 litters.
> 
> And breeding a bitch twice a year, there are reproductive vets that say that that is perfectly fine. It is not like a person dropping a kid every other year (normal). Women are pregnant 9 months, not 9 weeks. *And parents have to take care of their kids for 18-40 years. *The bitch generally has her pups for 8 weeks. So it isn't really terrible to breed back to back, but continuous breeding back to back will degrade the bitch's condition and litter size and increase puppy mortality.


Oh dear God, Sue - Not 40! Please says it's not 40. HAHAHA!


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

Like I said in previous post I can’t and won’t say the info provided is true nor does it matter. I love her I will do what’s right by her. Your right I got defensive over some things and I shouldn’t have. I’m scared and over thinking situations that haven’t happened and might not. I have thought long and hard about everything and whether I like to admit it or not I’m trying to justify my anger with info that might not be as accurate as originally thought and that isn’t fair. She was kind enough to let me know what was happening and she didn’t have too at that. I’ll not be responding anymore over the breeder. This isn’t about them and I don’t want it too be. I shouldn’t have repeated the info that I have no idea is factual or not. Lesson learned. I don’t want to be that angry poster. Your right I overthink most situations, and have terrible time letting things go. I’m just so scared something MIGHT happen to her and I love her so much I literally broke down in tears when I found all this out. All I will say is I have been a wreck and angry over this whole situation and I am letting my emotions get the best of me when I should be enjoying life with her as several have pointed out . Like you said I am overthinking things when she is healthy right now. 

When those figures where thrown at me I was shocked, disappointed and disgusted that someone could do that to an animal without ever really thinking if it was possible or not. Again I’ll apologize for putting info out there that was not factual and only here say.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

❤


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Oh dear God, Sue - Not 40! Please says it's not 40. HAHAHA!


35, not 40.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I completely understand the overthinking and making rash decisions. Just look at any of my posts! lol. I was a complete wreck for 2 weeks before the surgery was done to remove Lyka’s tumor, spay, and mesh surgery. She’s my heart dog, and losing her would kill me emotionally right now. So I worried and worried myself so much that my blood pressure shy rocketed, and I started having massive anxiety attacks. My own surgery was almost postponed due to my stress levels. And I probably posted so not so kind things. I probably still am because I’m socially inept, and still in pain. But the most important thing I did was learn to let go of anything I didn’t have the power to change, and change the things I didn’t like that were something I could change.

Just hang in there! Spay is a super common procedure. We are actually having one spayed in the next few months before she has her first heat because of what I experienced with Lyka. So use the negative in your case and flip it to a positive. You now know the importance of spaying!


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

Jchrest said:


> I completely understand the overthinking and making rash decisions. Just look at any of my posts! lol. I was a complete wreck for 2 weeks before the surgery was done to remove Lyka’s tumor, spay, and mesh surgery. She’s my heart dog, and losing her would kill me emotionally right now. So I worried and worried myself so much that my blood pressure shy rocketed, and I started having massive anxiety attacks. My own surgery was almost postponed due to my stress levels. And I probably posted so not so kind things. I probably still am because I’m socially inept, and still in pain. But the most important thing I did was learn to let go of anything I didn’t have the power to change, and change the things I didn’t like that were something I could change.
> 
> Just hang in there! Spay is a super common procedure. We are actually having one spayed in the next few months before she has her first heat because of what I experienced with Lyka. So use the negative in your case and flip it to a positive. You now know the importance of spaying!


“learn to let go of anything I didn’t have the power to change, and change the things I didn’t like that were something I could change.” 

This really strikes home for me I’m so quick to anger and be defensive that sometimes I do more harm than good. Like with this situation just constantly trying to get people to see my side of things and where I am coming from I completely lost sight of the positives that I have. A healthy dog. The breeder does care about her animals or she wouldn’t have informed me of what was going on and certainly wouldn’t have put me in contact with her vet. I think I will take your advice about reporting the vet though, I know if my doctor was to release info with out my consent and was bashing me too, I would be upset and would want to know. So I will be making the proper authorities aware. Like was suggested. 
I don’t know if I should inform the breeder or not on what was said because I really don’t want to start any trouble but she does deserve to know how this person is making her look. There were lies in the beginning but those could be misunderstandings and miscommunication as well. Would anyone recommend letting the breeder know that her vet is spreading info around to make her look bad. It wasn’t just to me either. I don’t want to contribute to a bad situation nor do I want to be in the middle but the more I think about it the more I feel for some reason I was manipulated with lies just to scare me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would stay out of it. Let her hash it out with her vet. Someone else will tell her and you don't want to be in the middle of that mess when it happens. If she is angry enough to sue him for slander, anyone who talked about it could become a witness. Focus on what you need to do for your dog.

If you are trying to get everyone here to agree with you, it will never happen, even if everything you post is reasonable and right. I haven’t seen a thread yet where every single person agrees with an OP.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> I would stay out of it. Let her hash it out with her vet. Someone else will tell her and you don't want to be in the middle of that mess when it happens. If she is angry enough to sue him for slander, anyone who talked about it could become a witness. Focus on what you need to do for your dog.
> 
> If you are trying to get everyone here to agree with you, it will never happen, even if everything you post is reasonable and right. I haven’t seen a thread yet where every single person agrees with an OP.


That is outstandingly good advice on all counts.

Shevasdwish17, please do not waste your time trying to kiss up to your critics on this forum. You did good. You were given some good advice and some bad advice, and you intelligently took the good advice and will do the right thing for your dog.

Just about anyone who criticizes a breeder here will be subjected to a stompfest. Please ignore it. Go play with your dog instead of wasting your time with nonsense. And please let us know how she does with the spay.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your bitch is beautiful and looks well-loved. Don't worry about what might happen. Instead, ask yourself if there is anything that you can do to improve her chances, do that, and then let it go (don't know no snowman song). 

We all have cancer cells in us. Dogs too. When our system goes out of balance they can take off. Often times stress can make this happen, while laughter and enjoying life works to strengthen our immune system. So love your girl and do everything with her, enjoy her, have fun with her. 

Sometimes, like with my little werewolf, Quinnie, there is nothing we can do. When I posted on Jchrest's thread, still raw from my bout with that oral cancer, I thought that was what it was. And, I am ecstatic that it is not, because no one should go through that. It took five months after the diagnosis, and at that point, I wanted to go with her. I think the only thing that kept me was that Babsy was almost 14 and I had her since she was born, and she was like a service dog for me, and I wanted to be the one with her if/when she was put down. That happened in May. I have been in a bad place for that and other reasons. I was so fortunate to have gotten Jenna to almost 13, Babsy to 14 and Heidi is now 13. I lost Whitney at 4 -- she had chronic problems from the bad dog food (menu foods recall), and Tori got some weird spinal tumor thing going on, and died at 9. Those were the pups I kept out of Arwen who died from hemangio at almost 9 years. 

We love these dogs so much, and they deserve it because they give us all their devotion. I tell you of Arwen because just because she died kind of young doesn't mean that her babies will have had that. It is hard to lose them however old they are when they pass. But we need to make the best use of the time we have with them, so that whenever they go, we know that they had a wonderful life, and we have great memories with them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> 128 puppies in four years from 2015 to 2019 whether she was born in 2015 or not she was still over bred. I don’t know where this figure came from only repeating info.



hmmm....you should do the math on that figure before you repeat the info. Female comes into heat 2x per year. 2(4 years) = 8 litters. 128/8= 16 puppies per litter.

Sorry....I'm not buying that. 12 is a HUGE litter for a German Shepherd. Most litters are 7-9 puppies. 8 litters x average 8 puppies per litter = 64. Half of what the figure you are are repeating.

So if the number of 128 is improbable, I would doubt the rest of the information you were given without actual proof.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

I thought I would update the post. She was spayed this morning and is resting comfortably at my feet. I took a lot of the advice that was given and I feel like I did what was right by my beautiful girl. Thank you too all that posted, I appreciate every response. Now we heal and de stress for awhile and just enjoy this blessed life that I truly have. ❤


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

And yes since she can’t jump up to sit with me I will Be joining her in the floor ❤


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pretty dogs. I know it had to be done, but I just hate those cones. She should heal quickly.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> I thought I would update the post. She was spayed this morning and is resting comfortably at my feet. I took a lot of the advice that was given and I feel like I did what was right by my beautiful girl.


Thank you so much for the update and the wonderful pics. She and her canine buddies are gorgeous and adorable.

You absolutely did what was right by her.

It's worth doing breast exams on her every month. Just gently pull up the skin around each nipple and gently roll it between your fingers. Any lump, no matter how small, should be immediately removed with some of the surrounding tissue and sent to a pathologist. Lumps often show up under the skin where they can be felt but not seen when they are small. If you detect and remove breast cancer early in dogs, the prognosis is very good,


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## VictorsMom (Dec 4, 2018)

If you detect and remove breast cancer early in humans the prognosis is very good too. &#55357;&#56832;


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

Help!!!!! 


As everyone knows Sheba was spayed sept 9th

She is bleeding like she is in heat not a lot just spotting but it is bright red not old blood or anything like that. I called the vet that done her spay and they have already closed and there aren’t any emergency vets in my area or close for that matter. Advice or anything similar happened to anyone here. should I go ahead make the four hour trip to the nearest emergency vet?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> She is bleeding like she is in heat not a lot just spotting but it is bright red not old blood or anything like that. I called the vet that done her spay and they have already closed and there aren’t any emergency vets in my area or close for that matter. Advice or anything similar happened to anyone here. should I go ahead make the four hour trip to the nearest emergency vet?


Yes, you should call the emergency vet NOW to let them know you are coming, and leave immediately with her. Go!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Lyka had some vaginal bleeding after her spay, but she also had a tumor removed, and a mesh surgery for vaginal prolapse, but the vet warned me she may have some vaginal bleeding. 

I would 100% call the emergency 24hr vet. It certainly won’t hurt, and they can tell you if she needs to be seen ASAP. Bleeding after a normal spay is not a normal side effect of the spay. If any ovarian tissue was left, she could still go into heat though, but this isn’t as common. I’d call to put my mind at ease.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

We went ahead and took her. They did not Seem extremely worried by the amount of blood. They did NOT put my mind too ease and kinda blew me off! She is still having some discharge which is quiet dark now ( it’s not a large amount of blood just a drop here and a drop there) I will be taking her to the vet that spayed her today.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Sorry the ER vets were jerks. You did right by taking her--with a four hour drive to the ER she could easily have bled to death if she had started a major bleed. Is there a vet in your area who can do an abdominal ultrasound?


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

Just back from the vet. They performed an ultrasound and I saw it with my own eyes ( but I really didn’t know what I was looking at ) there was no blood pooling inside her and everything looked great ( according to the vet techs ) . They did a blood panel and everything was normal. They also did a urinalysis and didn’t find anything abnormal there either. The only thing they could figure out is maybe she was super close to going into heat and her body was already preparing for it. None of this makes much sense to me and is very upsetting considering she was just fixed nine ten days ago. But I’m not the only one that is baffled by this the vet said he hadn’t ever seen anything like this is his 20 years of vet service. They want me to keep her on light activity for another two weeks just in case and monitor her gums closely to make sure she isn’t loosing color in them. So that’s where we are currently and I’m still extremely worried about her.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Is there another vet you can visit for a second opinion?


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> The only thing they could figure out is maybe she was super close to going into heat and her body was already preparing for it.


That is just expletive deleted. This is what almost certainly happened--the vet did a lousy job of stitching things together internally, so some stitches loosened or slipped off completely. But your vets aren't going to admit that. If the stitches had come loose earlier, your dog likely would have bled to death internally. I suggest that you never let this vet operate on your dog again.



Shevasdwish17 said:


> They want me to keep her on light activity for another two weeks just in case and monitor her gums closely to make sure she isn’t loosing color in them.


I would definitely keep her quiet and monitor her gums for this. If anything doesn't seem right, take her to a different vet. This is absolutely not what is supposed to happen after a spay.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

I will be taking your advice and finding a different vet. This has truly been an eye opening experience for me. I have cried more over the past few days for her, than when I was getting divorced! It’s so sad to me the nonchalant attitude I was greeted with at both the er vet and her regular vet. I can’t say for certain what happened but I going to presume you are right. I will be finding another vet it will be over an hour and half away but for my animals well being it is worth it. 

Sheba didn’t have any discharge this morning and her gums were pink and eyes bright. I will continue to crate her for another two weeks (4 hours at a time with a thirty min break in between. I can leave work at lunch and return home to check on her and let her use the bathroom) I also set up a cam so I can keep an eye on her prior to her break and after. I pull eight hour shifts. She will have free roam of the house after I get off work but she will be leashed at all times to keep her from jumping on the bed and couchs. At this point I am pretty disappointed that the professionals seem only to care about money and not the welfare of the animal.


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## Shevasdwish17 (Feb 22, 2018)

Not that I can get her too as quickly but if the bleeding starts again we will be making that trip


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When they say check the gums. what you do is press on the gum so that it turns a little white and watch it refill to the pink color. It is best to do this on your dog when she is healthy, so that you know what it looks like. Your checking refill. 

And on the back of the neck, like if you were going to scruff a pup, pull up on the skin and watch it spring back. If it is sluggish, then you know she is dehydrated. 

It is not a bad idea to have a digital thermometer for her as well. You can take her temperature anally with it, so long as you know what it is when she is healthy, the cheap ones will beep in a few seconds, and say somewhere between 100.5 to 102. If you know her healthy temperature, you will know if she is running one. 

When you call your vet, if you can say, "my girl is acting strangely, she is not drinking her water, and left her food this morning. I checked to see if she is dehydrated and she seems ok, and her refill on her gums seems normal, but she usually runs 101.2 and she her temperature is 103.1." 

They will still say they need to see her, but then they have information, they can decide if Monday morning is too long to wait, or if you should go to an ER. As you have more experience, you can use these things to decide the best course of action. Changes in behavior, dehydration, fever, refill, eating and drinking -- these are how we can know our critter is in trouble, because they cannot tell us with words.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> Just back from the vet. They performed an ultrasound and I saw it with my own eyes ( but I really didn’t know what I was looking at ) there was no blood pooling inside her and everything looked great ( according to the vet techs ) . They did a blood panel and everything was normal. They also did a urinalysis and didn’t find anything abnormal there either.* The only thing they could figure out is maybe she was super close to going into heat and her body was already preparing for it. None of this makes much sense to me and is very upsetting considering she was just fixed nine ten days ago. *But I’m not the only one that is baffled by this the vet said he hadn’t ever seen anything like this is his 20 years of vet service. They want me to keep her on light activity for another two weeks just in case and monitor her gums closely to make sure she isn’t loosing color in them. So that’s where we are currently and I’m still extremely worried about her.



Her body might have been preparing for it, but they removed her uterus! Therefore--that part should no longer be present. 

Unless she only had her ovaries removed, in a laparoscopic spay.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Shevasdwish17 said:


> I will be taking your advice and finding a different vet. This has truly been an eye opening experience for me. I have cried more over the past few days for her, than when I was getting divorced! It’s so sad to me the nonchalant attitude I was greeted with at both the er vet and her regular vet. I can’t say for certain what happened but I going to presume you are right. I will be finding another vet it will be over an hour and half away but for my animals well being it is worth it.
> 
> Sheba didn’t have any discharge this morning and her gums were pink and eyes bright. I will continue to crate her for another two weeks (4 hours at a time with a thirty min break in between. I can leave work at lunch and return home to check on her and let her use the bathroom) I also set up a cam so I can keep an eye on her prior to her break and after. I pull eight hour shifts. She will have free roam of the house after I get off work but she will be leashed at all times to keep her from jumping on the bed and couchs. At this point I am pretty disappointed that the professionals seem only to care about money and not the welfare of the animal.


All excellent strategies. 

I am still fuming about the way the vets treated you and Sheba. None of this should have happened. Thank God she is doing better.


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