# East German or Czech Dogs?



## Glacier

Is there any noticeable difference between their temperaments, drives, etc? I'm looking for a schutzhund prospect and I haven't seen anything that would state the use of one over the other. Do you have a preference, if so why?


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## BlackGSD

If I were getting a SchH "prospect" I wouldn't get a DDR lined dog. I would go with a WG working line dog or a dog that was Czech+ WG.

(I am not "bashing" DDR lines dogs. My youngest is 3/4 DDR 1/4 Czech.)


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## SunCzarina

My east german boys have been pretty mushy. They had more than their share of bravado and weren't afraid to put someone in their mouth but both of them were mommy's boys. 

lol, it's not me making them that way! My west german workingline bitch is hard as nails, she'd give both those boys what was coming to them and they'd back off as if to say Yes Mame!


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## umzilla

Look at the individual dogs, parents, etc. You'll find good and bad in any line.

Christine


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## onyx'girl

This thread has info on the differences, I keep resurrecting it!
There are opinions on the East, West and Czech throughout.


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## Glacier

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDIf I were getting a SchH "prospect" I wouldn't get a DDR lined dog. I would go with a WG working line dog or a dog that was Czech+ WG.
> 
> (I am not "bashing" DDR lines dogs. My youngest is 3/4 DDR 1/4 Czech.)


Why not?



> Originally Posted By: umzillaLook at the individual dogs, parents, etc. You'll find good and bad in any line.
> 
> Christine


Yeah, I'm aware of this. That's why I want to taking this as slowly as possible. I want a dog that will be a good match for me.



> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlThis thread has info on the differences, I keep resurrecting it!
> There are opinions on the East, West and Czech throughout.


Thanks for the link.


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## mjbgsd

From what I have learned, DDR dogs don't do good in SchH because they look at the sleeve as being a "joke", not real. They think before they do whatever they are going to do and tend not to want to bite a "sleeve". They do excellent in real protection work which is why a lot of police dogs are from DDR/Czech lineage.


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## debbiebrown

i think it depends on the linage myself. i have seen both good and not so good in both ddr, czech, and WG lines. i have experienced all of them and personally prefer the DDR. in my experience with the ddr, they are very focused on the work, and are willing to do anything.
i have a ddr female who fits that discription to a tee.

debbie


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## angelaw

Grace is all DDR, not for schutzhund. She's getting way to civil for sport. She doesn't like any nonsense, lol Prey drive? the only prey drive she has is for the cats and that's only recently (she's 2 1/2)


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## littledmc17

I have a DDR he is the biggest social butterfly. 
only prey drive he has is for his ball


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## kleinenHain

Max is mostly DDR 3/4 and he is hard as nails when it comes to SchH but he is more into the man than the sleeve. We never trained in SchH until he was well over three but took to it like he had done it all his life. I've also has West German and I loved how they worked in SchH. but not as serious as Max. 

With as much travel as a do with my dogs I would much rather have a serious dog like Max. Max has proven himself to me more times than one that he will go through a brick wall for me.

I have 2 full DDR dogs and have had a few here for training and I've only seen two to be good SchH DOGS. One a female that I had to send home to her owner and my boy Ike ( still in training). 

You can find a good SchH dog in any breed German Shepherd, I've owned West, Czech, DDR Working lines and Show line that were all good SchH dogs.


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## Brightelf

Beware. I got a Czech male. When I heard: "They mature really, really late!" I thought that meant only on the training field, only regarding their drives. NOPE. _It's in real life, too._









He's 2.5 years old. All silly.







All the time. 

"The Doofinator?" I am not kidding!


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## gagsd

I have no experience in Czech dogs (working on that) and limited with DDR lines, however....

--What I have seen in the DDR dogs I have personal experience with is they tended toward handler sensitivity so need a very cool, calm happy handler (particularly in their younger training stages).
--they had a LOT of "real" prey drive but think a rag is to mop with, not to chase This makes the obedience training techniques a lot of people use right now a little difficult.
--They can be a bit edgy/defensive as young dogs and therefore are easy to screw up or just get given up on.

As mature dogs the ones I have seen were very stable, solid temperaments, still lots of real prey drive, worked in a serious, civil style and did not always come off of the field and make buddy with the decoy.
These dogs were from Lord Gleisdrieck, Baldo Wolkenstein lines.


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## gagsd

I went back and looked at pedigrees of the dogs I was talking about, and you can add multiple lines to the Osterberg dogs, Don Rolandsteich, and Robby Glockeneck to Lord and Baldo.


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## GSD07

Mary, thanks for the information! Since Anton is exactly the way you describe (have you met him by chance?







) I looked into his pedigree again (ongoing process for me







). I knew that his sire was linebred on Don Rolandsteich, but I started digging deeper into the pedigree on the dam's side and I can't believe how many times I see Don Rolandsteich there. Lots of the Osterberg dogs too.


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## CainGSD

My DDR dog was my first SchH dog. I was very upfront with the breeder and explained what I planned to pursue with the pup. She advised me that they mature slowly and that training could/would be challenging. Since this was my first dog I thought I understood all that LOL...I have been very happy with dog. We are still training and in his individual case he has turned out to be all I asked for and more. In my opinion anything he lacks has been a result of my inexperience rather than the dog. I have received very nice compliments on him from a national level competitor as well.


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## gagsd

Have not met Anton It is interesting how things show up in certain lines. I just wish I knew more people to talk pedigrees with
I currently have 3 Czech/DDR puppies (why?--because I'm crazy!) and the main difference I have noticed so far is they are much more confident and pushy in strange environments, and much more into tugs and toys. Check out this video of one of them as he is put down at a stranger's house, with strangers around him..... 
http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j151/ga_gsd/?action=view&current=bOYS10WEEKS003.flv


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## gagsd

Nora-- Could you elaborate on what you think the breeder meant when saying "training could/would be challenging."
Thanks!!


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## Vandal

> Quote: I can't believe how many times I see Don Rolandsteich there




http://www.deutscherschaeferhund.com/ru/information/12-don-vom-rolandsteich.html

Interesting that these dogs are behind many of the better working line dogs nowadays. Dogs who bring something a little more real to the protection phase besides prey drive. Don is behind Falk von den Wölfen thru Ahron vom Granite Rose and Robby is found behind Tom Leefdalhoof. Both sit in the top line of the pedigrees of these dogs.
Of course, Robby is also behind other notable dogs like Gento Haus Larwin and Orry which again leads to Tom and also to Zender vom Lusondai . Similar dogs in the way they perform in protection. Lots of power and fight.

As for the maturity aspect. I think there are simply times in the training of these dogs that you just have to stop and wait a couple of months before proceeeding. There are certain times with these dogs that no training is the best method.


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## Smithie86

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsdFrom what I have learned, DDR dogs don't do good in SchH because they look at the sleeve as being a "joke", not real. They think before they do whatever they are going to do and tend not to want to bite a "sleeve". They do excellent in real protection work which is why a lot of police dogs are from DDR/Czech lineage.


Not a lot. Some. K9s are selected for their ability. Most of what we were bringing over were WG or WG/Czech.


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## Catu

> Quote: I can't believe how many times I see Don Rolandsteich there


Here, at the other end of the world, with a line coming from Hungary... and Diabla has Don on her pedigree.


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## GSD07

Sue, is it also because PDs don't want to wait years for full maturity, need more working life out of the dog, and also don't see it feasible to modify their training program to accommodate a dog too different from the mainstream even though the ability is there? That would make perfect sense to me and I would want them to operate efficiently and cost effective since they are using taxpayers money. I know close to nothing about the law enforcement operation, just curious.


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## Vandal

You have to consider that most K9 units, at least here in CA, have handlers who are police first. Meaning, they are not dog trainers. If I were going to place a dog on a PD as a patrol dog, it would have to be one with a bit more hardness to tolerate lots of handling mistakes. I know people and used to train with a man who owned a Police Dog School. They return dogs rather quickly if they don't make the grade. 
I placed two East German dogs with PDs years ago. One made it and went on to do very well on the street and at their police olympics and one came back to me. He would have made a great patrol dog, very serious and did not lack in that regard but they wanted a duel purpose dog and he was not cut out for detection.
Placing dogs on PDs can be rather frustrating, so, IMO,you not only have to have the right dog for the job, ( one that would do great with a good handler), but one that can tolerate their handlers. No insult intended, just that they are not dog trainers, they are police.


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## CainGSD

Hi Mary,

I can tell you what she relayed with her particular lines. She said that her lines were slow to mature mentally and physically. I definitely experienced that with Cain. He was all of 2 1/2 to 3 yrs old before I began to see signs of mental maturity that was anything more than fleeting. Cain has always been somewhat handler sensitive so it has been a balancing act to learn how much input to give him from me. As a very green handler the learning curve for me was extremely steep as well. It's been very hard at times to train a dog to perform when I have felt as though I had no clue what we were doing.

As a 8 mth old dog when we began SchH, Cain (per the training director and decoy) was way more interested in the decoy/man than equipment. Prey drive and food drive was not readily apparent at that age. We took our time and brought him along slowly and waited for his brain to catch up with his brawn. He is a stockier framed dog and has a very intense look to him. He was often thought to be much older in yrs than he actually was and it would have been easy to listen to the suggestions that he should be doing a lot more than he was ready for as a youngster. Our training director and decoy spent countless hours bringing both of us along.

Cain is now 5 yrs old. He is very intense, has shown himself to have a higher pain threshold, he is still sensitive to me and that can be a detriment in protection if I put too much verbal influence on him. He has also shown himself to be real and willing to step up and defend for real.

His lack of titles sit solely on my shoulders. Tracking holds little attraction for me but we are planning to trial for his SchH this fall.


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## gagsd

Nora, Thanks for the input. It really helps me, and maybe others, to give specifics. It sounds like you were very lucky to work with a good club. And your boy is gorgeous (I checked out his Dogster page).
I also noticed conflict in protection with my boy Dingo. He seemed to be checking with me all of the time saying,"am I doing the right thing?"
BTW-The puppy video I posted above is a Reiko grandson... so that makes your Cain his uncle, right?


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## mjbgsd

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: mjbgsdFrom what I have learned, DDR dogs don't do good in SchH because they look at the sleeve as being a "joke", not real. They think before they do whatever they are going to do and tend not to want to bite a "sleeve". They do excellent in real protection work which is why a lot of police dogs are from DDR/Czech lineage.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a lot. Some. K9s are selected for their ability. Most of what we were bringing over were WG or WG/Czech.
Click to expand...

I was noticing that here in my county, a lot of the dogs are Czech/DDR. But I do know there are a lot of WG/Czech dogs in other places. I should have said I noticed for my area, lol.


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## nh_greg

Not sure if anyone has brought this up.... What are *you* looking for in a SchH dog?? There are so many variables out there. From what I've seen in my limited experience in the sport so far, the West German dogs seem to be more popular that the DDR dogs. Of course there are both, but the west seem to be more popular. 
I have a DDR/Czech dog that is in no way suitable for SchH. Weak nerves and no where near the drive needed. 

Just got a new dog for SchH that is west, and although young, he has a serious side that is in there and will occasionally come out. (He's 15 months old). Very nice toy/ball drive. Food drive could be a bit better but I do like the toy drive a lot. (Got a few scars from it already). 

You need to find out *exactly* what kind of dog you're looking for. There are dogs out there are prey monsters, others that are very serious in their work with little prey drive, and then you can find others that are a good balance. Are you looking for over the top toy drive? Food drive? 

Do your homework, but really look at what YOU want in a dog. There are sites out there that sell dogs that are older and have started in SchH. Lots of good videos to see. 

Lastly visit some SchH clubs, watch, and ask as many questions as you can. There's tons of info out there. 

Good luck


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## CainGSD

Hi Mary,

Yes that would make Cain the pup's uncle. Please drop me a PM with the lines on the pups if you have a moment. I don't want to hijak anyone's thread







.

I get up to Georgia several times a year for Schutzhund seminars. If you are anywhere near the training center, it would be great to meet up.


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## jdp2134

my opinon is that DDR/Czech dogs dont have ENOUGH prey drive. I dont like prey monsters or anything and i train my WGW in PSA.

I like to push my dog to see what level he is at and if we can move forward. My dog is hard (my definition of hard is how quick to bounce back from adversity) and IMO you need more prey drive than they typical DDR/Czech because if you do push a dog a litte to far you NEED something to build him back up which is the need for prey drive.

I like DDR/Czech dogs for their seriousness than most but IMO if you find the right gentics and evaluate the puppy correctly and train it how is supposed to be trianed a WGW is the total package. 

Also i have heard that those dogs dont produce enough consistent solid nerves which is understandable considering their high defense.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: jdp2134
> if you find the right gentics and evaluate the puppy correctly and train it how is supposed to be trianed a WGW is the total package.


With such approach you can find a total package dog in any line, American showline included.


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## jdp2134

Amercian showline doesnt typically( very rare if non existent) have the right genetics for what this thread is calling for which is working ability (but you knew that your an elite member!







)

And IF you did that would be the exception not the rule.

Threads like these generalize everything when talking about certain types of dogs.


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## Ocean

More important than the question of DDR or Czech is the question of finding the right schutzhund club. So if the OP is looking to do do SchH, the best thing to do is find the right club first then talk to the people in the club especially the TD about breeders and dogs. 
The OP is a 21 y/o who has been doing Internet research on GSDs for 2 years, that is great! The problem is one may decide they want a DDR or Czech lines dog based on what they've read on the Internet and many, I would daresay most, SchH clubs out there today do not have the necessary support system, skills or knowledge to do justice to a DDR or a Czech lines dog. The OP will just get frustrated in her first experience in dog sport. 
Certainly, all dogs are different and with a lot of searching it is possible to find a DDR or Czech dog that essentially behaves like a West working line for sport. For someone looking for their first dog the odds are lower.
If the attraction to DDR/Czech is due to their looks: dark sable, bigger boned, etc., it is possible to find West working lines with those looks.
And of course, there are many, many mixes of lines these days and anyone looking for 100% DDR, 100% Czech, 100% West etc. is not asking the right question.
Since the OP is in the LA area, there is no better option than to seek out adlerstein kennels and to have a chat there first as a starting point.


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## cliffson1

I think Czech dogs are very good dogs for almost any decent sch club...DDR dogs are often more difficult for some clubs to plug into...JMO


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## boeselager

I do think it depends on what lines the DDR dog's are from though. Some of the DDR lines can have the dog mature slowly mentally, which means you have to wait longer to start training them. If you push these dog's when their not ready mentally, you could ruin the dog. Mind you some of the DDR lines throw this, but not all. I have a DDR/west working male that worked from day one, and picked up very fast, was easy to train, but he is a DDR/west combo too. I had a full DDR female awhile back that you could start training right away, and another that you could not. You do need the right trainer and a good one too, for any breed of dog. 1 bad trainer can ruin your dog. That's just my 2 cents about it all.


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## Rerun

I was under the understanding that czech and DDR were the same lines, and have read that here on this forum. What is the actual difference? Are they infact completely different?


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## Catu

I will let technical explanations to the expertes because the Czech and DDR dogs I know in person can be counted with my fingers.

But only to start, the origin. Czech dogs come from Czech Republic and DDR dogs come from what used to be Oriental Germany on the Berlin Wall times.

I'm curious about where you read that DDR and Czech were the same.


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## Rerun

Catu said:


> I'm curious about where you read that DDR and Czech were the same.


Several threads, on this forum, with some experienced members discussing them. Don't remember the threads off hand, sorry.


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## JKlatsky

DDR/Czech is a fairly common cross and are often referred to that way. "My DDR/Czech dog..." Could that be where some of the confusion is coming from?

Regardless, they're not the same lines. It's not always easily distinguishable on sight but there are different characteristics. I do not have a Czech or a DDR dog so I will let someone else explain that better than I could with 2nd hand knowledge.


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## atravis

Older thread on differences:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/115472-difference-btw-e-german-ddr-czech.html


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