# Raw, Apartment Living, and Backpacking



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Hi all! So I'm interested in feeding raw (my original plan was Orijen and is still something I am considering), but I'm curious about how that would work in an apartment?

In many of the videos I see about raw, when feeding whole quarters of chicken, or a whole rabbit, bones, etc. the dog drags their meal around a lot. This isn't a problem if they eat outside, but I imagine inside it is rather messy. I'm fairly germaphobic so having my dog drag a hunk of chicken around would be unacceptable even with cleaning afterwords. I thought restricting eating to the kitchen, but I'd always wonder if I missed a spot. I thought about feeding in the crate, but I don't like the idea of all those germs smeared on his bedding where they will lay and washing the bedding after each meal is unrealistic.

I am considering getting a meat grinder to simply grind up the whole mess of stuff and separate it into individual meal portions, prepared and ready to go. I've heard that makes them eat much neater. That plan sounds great, my only concern is it negates the benefit of exercise/mental stimulation/teeth cleaning from chewing on the bones.

Is offering a good chew like a Himalayan cheese stick or antler along with other toys like kongs an acceptable alternative? Again, as much as I would love giving the pup something like a knuckle bone to chew on, I'm just not comfortable having them drag it around an apartment.

I'm trying to plan out my food schedule and recipes in advance so when I get the pup I am ready to go and stocked with alternatives in case of a food sensitivity.

Also, I plan on doing a lot of extended camping/backpacking trips with my dog where carrying a heavy cooler with meals would not be possible amd we'd not be near civilization for a grocery store. When backpacking, every ounce is precious and a cooler would be impossible. I'd have to bring kibble then anyway and I fear my dog would look at it like, wha this this nonsense? Would it be better to avoid the whole issue and just feed a high quality kibble like Orijen from the start and not worry about it? The only other idea I have is a dehydrated meal I could make with water and having kibble as an emergency back up.

Thank you!


----------



## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I feed mine raw on the weekends and live in an apartment. I feed the bloody bits frozen. No mess, no fuss. 

They know they only get raw on the weekends and switch back to their kibble on Mondays without issue. If I had more freezer space I would look into feeding raw full time. For now though it's just weekend yummies.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I taught mine to eat meaty bones, necks, feet and the like on an old bath towel. Meal/snack over... towel hits the laundry. Easy peasy
I feed raw and kibble. We actually have days where kibble is chosen over raw...go figure.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I lived in an apt. My dog ate over his bowl. Dropped the chunks of chicken carcasses (I cut up carcasses with chicken shears) next to it , I wash the floor afterward with vinegar and water.

Recreational bones were served on a throw. He knew when the specific throw came out! He would start doing a side step dance. I would have him sit to the side until put it out, and then he would promptly hop on the throw and wait to get his bone. He just layed down with it and went to town. If he started moving off the throw I would simply adjust it or tell him to move.

As for camping. Honest Kitchen dehydrated. Weighs less than kibble


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

GatorBytes said:


> I lived in an apt. My dog ate over his bowl. Dropped the chunks of chicken carcasses (I cut up carcasses with chicken shears) next to it , I wash the floor afterward with vinegar and water.
> 
> Recreational bones were served on a throw. He knew when the specific throw came out! He would start doing a side step dance. I would have him sit to the side until put it out, and then he would promptly hop on the throw and wait to get his bone. He just layed down with it and went to town. If he started moving off the throw I would simply adjust it or tell him to move.
> 
> As for camping. Honest Kitchen dehydrated. Weighs less than kibble


Great suggestions! Honest Kitchen dehydrated sounds like a very good backpacking option.

I do like the idea of a throw! Do you wash it after every use or store it somewhere special?

Another question for everyone, would a separate freezer work in an apartment? Like plugged into a regular outlet? Did you use a separate freezer? Most apartment freezers I've seen are quite small.


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

My dog has his bones in his crate, with bedding removed. Any mess is a quick squirt and wipe with a paper towel.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, we have a separate freezer. 7 cu.ft. chest freezer for the dog.

Chest and upright freezers use a regular outlet just like a fridge. If you have room a small freezer would be ideal. Allows you to buy in bulk and save $$$. 

IME chest freezers are cheaper and quieter. Small uprights tend to not be quiet or have good warranties (I looked high & low). I have a 2 year old upright and the 20 yr. old chest. The upright makes a ton of noise and the only reason I stand it is it is in the garage. The old chest freezer you can't even hear running. Just my 2 cents


----------



## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

We live in the country now, but I did live in a basement apartment with four large dogs who were fed raw and we did a lot of camping and showing. My dogs ate above their bowls, I would do a quick mop or wipe underneath after if they dropped anything outside of the bowl. Rec bones were eaten on a towel, depending on how nasty it was after I would use it again or wash it. And I use honest kitchen when travelling. Since being switched to raw, my dogs don't seem to be able to tolerate large amounts of kibble, and digestive issues while travelling is no fun so honest kitchen it is.
I was fortunate that there was a garage on the property we could use, we had a big freezer in there. Otherwise I would have just gotten a small chest freezer for inside.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Dunkirk said:


> My dog has his bones in his crate, with bedding removed. Any mess is a quick squirt and wipe with a paper towel.


This is what I do, super easy cleanup.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Persinette said:


> Also, I plan on doing a lot of extended camping/backpacking trips with my dog where carrying a heavy cooler with meals would not be possible amd we'd not be near civilization for a grocery store. When backpacking, every ounce is precious and a cooler would be impossible.


I've done a lot (lot, lot lot) of extended backpack trips with my GSD. It's my experience that the dog needs to consume so many calories each day, a meal on the trail ends up being different from the typical meal plan at home, no matter how you feed. 

We've used a bunch of different things over the years, including Red Paw X-Series, dehydrated dog meals (super lightweight but bulky and insanely expensive), pouches of low sodium tuna, cutting butter or coconut oil into her meals at night for extra calories and warmth on winter trips, dehydrated eggs mixed into a slurry with warm water, hard boiled eggs, single serving packets of natural peanut butter, etc. One of the most helpful things we did is getting her used to variety in her daily diet, so she doesn't have digestive upset when we go backpacking. I'll be happy to PM you a few more things that worked for us, if you're curious. Happy Trails!


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I live in the desert so even though we own our home I don't want to feed outside because our yard is just dirt because of this drought. I trained my GSD to eat on his own towel, if he accidentally moves off I tell him pick it up and he moves it back to the towel. I just spot clean after with vinegar water, boom done. Have never gotten sick or had problems... honestly fresh raw should not be covered with tons of bacteria like a lot of people think, just use common sense and handle it like meat your going to cook and you'll be fine! You can also feed partially frozen which is a lot less messy.

I also keep a smaller 6ft cubic freezer in my house, between my kitchen and my dining room. I could put it in the garage but it'd be an annoying hassle, I like I can access his food right there. You really do need a freezer to make raw feeding cost effective especially for a larger dog but you can usually find them pretty cheap off CL. I bought mine new from Home Depot for about $150 just because I wanted to warranty.

For backpacking I'd use freeze dried raw, it's extremely light!


----------



## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

I may bet crucified for this.........
After years of feeding my dogs, I've found that they do best on Purina Pro Plan - Savor. I've tried Origin, Taste of the Wild, Eagle, Victor, Raw and many others. 
ALL of my dog have better coats, good stools, good body conditioning, good appetite and plenty of energy.
I still give a small bit of raw almost every day, usually while cooking and while asking for behaviors......(usually down stays when cooking... LOL). 
I understand that every dog is different and that every owner feels strongly about what is best for their dogs. 

We take our dogs on an extended camping trip every summer, a week of the trip usually includes backpacking in the Rockies. We usually take one or two with us on the backpack and kennel the rest locally. 
We have learned that nothing creates a good pack than letting our dog loose to chose if they want to stick around or run off and starve (none have every run away).
We have a big black mutt who used to enjoy bolting out the front door and staying 3 steps out of reach until she tired of the game. After the first camping trip with her, her behavior changed and she never played that game again. 
For camping, especially where bears and wild cats can be an issue, kibble is much easier to pack. Predators will smell the meat and could follow, we have never had a problem with kibble. Raw, unless dehydrated will spoil quickly on a backpacking trip. 
We've found that our dogs get much more exercise and eat less during backpacks, no matter what we feed them. One year I purchased a huge quantity of freeze-dried meats (very expensive) and reconstituted them before giving them to the dogs, they still didn't eat as much as normal. Its very difficult to know how much to plan for your dog unless you've taken him on a few trial backpacks close to home. 
Our dogs pack their own food (and water in arid areas) in, in their packs we also put at least 1 set of dogs boots per 3 dogs, a good first aid kit including antibiotics, splints, vet wrap. a leash for each dog and an extra collar or two. We make sure to vaccinate against snake bites too. Worst possible scenario is having an incident and having no way of bringing a dog back out.
Planning a trip with water sources is extra important when packing with dogs. We can carry a quart or two, and so can the dogs, but they seem to need more than usual and they also like to lay in it to cool off.


----------



## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

Mountain House has freeze dried meats in large cans.
Mountain House Premium Meats ReadyPack


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Definitely do what works best for your dog and I've seen dogs who just don't do well on the higher quality kibbles. With raw though, you need to make sure you research and transition properly. I've seen time and time again people starting with WAY too much variety when starting raw. You want to feed only chicken(preferably bland) for the first two weeks then add in one new protein at a time. It's a very gradual process, do too much too soon and you'll have major rocket butt on your hands. My GSD does best on raw, he just doesn't do well digestive wise on kibble.

Like I said though, do what works best and what your comfortable with. Purina doesn't have the best ingredients but they are one of the few companies that has actually done trials and real studies on their food.


----------



## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

I know! Purina of all brands......

I start all my puppies on raw with added milk replacer, they do great on it. By the time they are 8 weeks, they can eat a variety of foods (raw chicken, meat, and a mixture of kibble brands combined), this seems to make transitioning to their new homes much easier. Many new owners don't realize the importance of switching a puppy slowly, even if they're cautioned. 

Of my dogs, one is on a raw diet, most receive mainly kibble with some raw, 2 of my dogs do not do well on raw. If fed exclusively raw, 1 shoots it out both ways (even after lean chicken with bone is fed for a week), the other becomes listless after a few months. Like humans, every dog's digestive system is different.

With multiple dogs, finding something that most can agree on is important to me. Crazy how Purina has that one. They eat the Savor - Salmon or Chicken varieties. They will turn their noses up on the Sport varieties and will eat the Focus but don't really like it. 
IMO - being open minded, and studying each dog's short and long term condition is important no matter what is being fed.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Rallhaus said:


> Our dogs pack their own food (and water in arid areas) in, in their packs we also put at least 1 set of dogs boots per 3 dogs, a good first aid kit including antibiotics, splints, vet wrap.


^ This, for sure. Before I took Tica on her first "real" backpacking trip (15 days), I made an appointment with my vet to go over some health concerns. He was very helpful, and said that their office usually doesn't prescribe canine painkillers or broad spectrum antibiotics ahead of time. However, after we talked, he determined that given how far we would be from a road, no cell service, no vet, we wrote me a prescription for several items, and took the time to write up dosage instructions and make sure I understood fully. Thankfully have never needed any of it, but I do feel better traveling with it on hand. 

I used to think dog booties looked stupid and were for "foo-foo" dogs. I learned that lesson fast. Tica cut her paw open on some ice on a winter camping trip, on day 1 of a 3 day trip. It didn't seem to bother her or slow her down, but it was bleeding quite a bit and we had two more days of hiking until we got out. I made a boot out of sterile gauze, one of my wool socks, and duct tape. It worked fine, but looked ridiculous and cost me a very expensive sock. Now, we bring boots, just in case.

This thread makes me want to skip out of work and go camping.


----------



## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

First time out, we had to evacuate our home due to a hurricane, we ended up camping at Enchanted Rock Park in Texas and going on day hikes. First day out, my Aussie burned her feet on hot rocks. We were just site camping and veterinary care was close by, this could have been disastrous had we been 20 miles into a 40 mile loop trail! As it was, one person had to say at camp and babysit the "carpet dog" instead of exploring the park with the others. 

An important aspect that many do not account for..........
Your dog must be physically ready for a backpack... including its feet! 
"Carpet dogs" with soft pads endure much pain during such a pack. 
We usually camp for a week at a higher elevation, since we're at sea level where the terrain is completely flat and we have no rocky soil, we camp at about 8,000 feet (more for us than the dogs), during this time our dogs have supervised free range all day long. Their pads quickly become thicker and better able to handle the sandy rocky conditions. Their bodies also better able to handle uneven rocky terrain and they learn to avoid cactus. 
We also schedule a few weekend walk in, camp and walk out weekends to help prepare ourselves and our dogs. 
There is an amount of training required before taking a dog pack packing.... dog must have a 100% recall even under heavy distraction (deer running past), they must learn where their packs are (at first they bump into everything), they also must have a 100% down stay command (incase we encounter another hiker). 
In some states, dogs are PTS for running after deer, elk and other hoof stock. 

In national forests, a dog must be in control at all times. This means they must be obedient and come back when called, must not be threatening to others, and must not fight if another dog is encountered of you want to let them off leash.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Ahh, I love backpacking!

Another thing to consider along the lines of WIbackpacker, who suggested bringing pain meds and antibiotics (a good idea) is porcupines. My vet prescribed Ace (sedative) for me to bring on trips if we had a bad quilling, so I could pull the quills myself. Even a curious dog can get quills in her mouth for just a quick sniff. Never had to use it, the stuff scares me, honestly, but a week from the nearest road and I would do what's needed. 

I wish they offered porcupine avoidance courses, like they do with rattlesnakes. So if you're in porky country, it's an important consideration. Even a really well trained dog can get in trouble, it just takes a second to get quilled. 

I always bring high-energy kibble (Dr. Tim's or RedPaw) on backpacking trips. The dogs pack their own food. Water is extremely important- dogs do not tolerate heat well, and need frequent water breaks. 

Dehydrated raw is an option but I use it to supplement, not feed. Too expensive. 

I saw a cougar and her cub walk by the trail above my tent on a solo (with dog of course) backpacking trip in the Chelan Wilderness. That was a great trip.


----------



## Flutter (Aug 2, 2013)

When we lived in an apartment we mostly fed complete grinds from a bowl. Food stays in the bowl. Special treats like marrow bones, chicken necks/feet, whole fish, etc were fed on the balcony. 

Now that we have room for a freezer we assemble his food ourselves. We have a towel in front of his bowl because heaven forbid whole pieces of food stay in the bowl. The must be put on the floor then eaten off the floor. I have a garbage can the dirty towels go into then wash them separately with bleach. 

As for backpacking. It's so important to condition your dog. Start with an empty pack and gradually add weight. Get your dogs feet tough and their endurance up. Good behaviour is incredibly important and have your dog wear a bell. Out here dogs are famous for bringing Grizzlies and other predators to their people. Behaviour is incredibly important and work on it. Make every hike a training session and reward heavily to make those difficult behaviours extra rewarding. Staying close is important, recall is a lifesaver, but behaviours like 'far enough' and 'turn' are very important too. Also practice behaviours at a distance. When your dog is 30' away in a highly interesting environment will they lay down when asked? What about at 100'? Get all of your behaviours at a distance. We also track with our dog and tracking is the best thing ever. He does it all the time but stays within 100' of us. However, sometimes there is a really good scent and voices can't get through to his brain (the way we track can be called trailing or tracking through drive, it's not precise and methodical like Schutzhund tracking) so have an emergency recall. We use a Fox 40 whistle. Incredibly obnoxious and piercing. 

Another thing to consider is build up their pack endurance slowly. We went too fast and our dog got some rubs on his armpits. This tells us to go slower AND where to put moleskin. Always bring moleskin to pad the pack straps because you don't know when an irritation can occur. 

Lastly, can you carry your dog? How far can you carry them? If you're hiking 20km from help can you carry your dog 20km back? Are you ok with leaving your dog behind if you can't? Determine your distances ahead of time. Take a first aid course and kit. Do you know how to carry your dog for distances? How comfortable is your dog with being carried? You need a dog that will be quiet on your back for hours. Train this. We practice even when our dog is dirty from hunting birds in a marsh (he's a retriever, shhh, but I've found this is the best place for raw information, help, and support). He stays on the carpet by the front door and gets carried up the stairs and down the hall to the shower. Your dog needs to be relaxed on your back over varying terrain.


----------



## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Thank you all for all the great suggestions! I'm getting tons of ideas!

As for the question regarding carrying the dog should he become injured, I've given this a lot of thought. I am planning on learning how to make one of those sling type drags where you can drag an injured person (animal). I believe they have very light weight collapsible ones too. Perhaps this would be an effective method? But safety is very important. I'll be sure to do lots of research and lots of conditioning before going on an extreme outing.


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I do not live in an apartment, but I feed my GSD raw inside in his crate. Plastic tray, wipe up when done, and that's it. No mess, no fuss.  When I did live in an apartment I would often give recreational bones on our balcony on a towel. When they were done we would throw it in the wash. You don't have to drag an entire animal carcass into your house to feed raw.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I really like the Real Meat brand (air dried I think) dog food for potential back packing. I have used it for training treats and occasional small meals. They are kibble sized pieces and don't need to be rehydrated.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Flutter made perhaps the most important point re: behavior.... besides safety, of course. Lots of long distance backpackers strongly dislike dogs on the trail, some are actively campaigning to prohibit them, because they've had very bad experiences. If you check out WhiteBlaze, the AT forum and search for "dogs" you'll get a glimpse of the controversy. There are some decent resources on there too, if you read between the threads of dog haters and dog lovers screaming at each other. 

We trained "Get Back" (walk behind me), and the all important "Leave It" at sources of drinking water. With all hikers filling their bottles from limited sources, people get understandably annoyed when they come up to a tiny spring or other water source and a dog is slurping away.

We were near a shelter area one night and there was a very badly behaved dog who managed to get into another hiker's food bag and eat 3+ days of meals before it was pulled away. Things escalated, and it wasn't pretty. I always bring a tent, even on trails where there are shelters available, because some people don't appreciate bedding down next to the fragrant aroma of wet dog. Can't imagine why?

With good preparation your GSD can be a great ambassador for the breed, and dogs on trails in general.


----------



## kburrow11 (Jan 31, 2014)

Persinette said:


> In many of the videos I see about raw, when feeding whole quarters of chicken, or a whole rabbit, bones, etc. the dog drags their meal around a lot. This isn't a problem if they eat outside, but I imagine inside it is rather messy. I'm fairly germaphobic so having my dog drag a hunk of chicken around would be unacceptable even with cleaning afterwords. I thought restricting eating to the kitchen, but I'd always wonder if I missed a spot. I thought about feeding in the crate, but I don't like the idea of all those germs smeared on his bedding where they will lay and washing the bedding after each meal is unrealistic.


I feed raw in an apartment, and it was fairly easy to avoid mess and such. I laid down a piece of cardboard and taught Vida to keep her food on top of the cardboard, I just had to tell her a couple times to get her food back on the cardboard and everything was good. Then after the meal, all I had to do was fold up the cardboard and stick it away.


----------

