# Sable x Sable Breeding



## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

I understand that a sable x sable breeding will produce "true sables". Some breeders scoff at this, why is that? If you're breeding 2 dogs that are titled, health tested, out of good stock and will complement each other, shouldn't color, provided the color is allowable by the breed standard, be immaterial?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't understand your question. Color is immaterial. Is it the "true sable" label you are questioning? Sorry, confused.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't understand your question. Color is immaterial. Is it the "true sable" label you are questioning? Sorry, confused.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sable is a dominant gene. there is no such thing as a "true sable". all sable are sable. That sounds like a marketing gimmick.

Yes, color should be immaterial as long as it's in standard.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

I'm sorry I should have been more clear. "True sable" is not a marketing gimmick, they look the same as any other sable. If you breed a sable to a sable, you can get a "true sable" in the offspring. These dogs will only produce sables regardless of what other colors they are bred to. I'm sure there is another word for this but this is what I have often heard breeders commonly refer to it as.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

They will produce only sable because each parent gives one gene color. If one parent is aw/aw then they can only give aw, which is dominant over all other colors, then their offspring will be sable. It wouldn't matter what the other parent is.

The offspring will not necessarily be "true sable". Only the parent that is aw/aw would be. In order for the offspring to be "true sable" both parents would have to be "true sable" and only have aw to pass down.

I guess if people want to put a name to it, okey dokey, but I've found when people do that it's generally a marketing gimmick. 

Reputable breeders are not breeding for color so, in answer to your question, color should be immaterial as long as it's in standard.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

I guess it would be the opposite of a marketing gimmick as from what I've seen people seem to frown upon this. I'm in the same boat as you, if they are nice, healthy dogs with good temperament then who cares what color they are (provided it's in standard of course)? I wonder if people involved with different lines look at it differently. A lot of people involved with show lines think that sables are harder to finish so maybe that is why it is frowned upon? I can see how folks with working line dogs wouldn't care as much.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

The word is homozygous. It simply means they carry two copies of the sable gene, and thus will only produce sables when bred to any other color GSD. There is nothing special about it whatsoever. Sable is sable, whether the dog is homozygous for sable or carries sable+any other recessive color gene.

If a dog is being 'advertised' as 'pure sable' it is a gimmick and nothing more.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

I think everybody misunderstood the question. There is no marketing gimmick or dogs being advertised as pure sable or anything like that. It is actually the opposite. I have noticed that many people in show lines will not do these sable x sable breedings because they do not want to produce these homozygous sables.

Let me rephrase. Do you see issue with breeding a litter that will produce homozygous sables, and if so, why?


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

Color should be the last concern when considering breeding, and even then, color faults (outside of breed standard) should be about the only thing color-wise that should disqualify. Literally everything else is more important, or at least should be.

Sable has been all but bred out of showlines, especially WGSL. Even ASL is almost all Black and Tan. They, for the most part, won't breed to any sable dog, homozygous or not. Sable won't win in the show ring.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

Sable is seen at almost every AKC conformation show, and wins. Some people do seem to think that sable is more difficult to finish, that hasn't been my experience. My boy finished easily and that was with a total noob for an owner. Do you think that's why it is, just the "sable is harder to finish" mindset?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Ken Clean-Air System said:


> Even ASL is almost all Black and Tan. They, for the most part, won't breed to any sable dog, homozygous or not. Sable won't win in the show ring.



Not true at all. ASL aren’t almost all Black and Tan. There are blacks, bi-colors and sables galore. When I showed Scarlet last month, there was a bi-color in her class, and two sables were in with Scarlet, for Best of Breed. Scarlet’s sire is a black dog. 

Sables win ALL THE TIME. I know many sable champions. Scarlet’s half sister is a champion, and is going to the National this week. She’s sable, and quite stunning. Saw a video of her herding her owner’s sheep the other day. She doesn’t just run around a show ring.


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> Not true at all. ASL aren’t almost all Black and Tan. There are blacks, bi-colors and sables galore. When I showed Scarlet last month, there was a bi-color in her class, and two sables were in with Scarlet, for Best of Breed. Scarlet’s sire is a black dog.
> 
> Sables win ALL THE TIME. I know many sable champions. Scarlet’s half sister is a champion, and is going to the National this week. She’s sable, and quite stunning. Saw a video of her herding her owner’s sheep the other day. She doesn’t just run around a show ring.


I stand corrected. The ASL's that I usually see are black and tan, and black and tan's always seem to be what you see in the big shows like Westminster. I know there is more variety of color, by far, in ASL than WGSL but not a ton more. I'm not a showline guy, obviously, sorry for the assumption ... as to not doing anything but running around the showring, I don't believe I ever said anything about that being the only showlines can do ... good lord.


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## Mikki94 (Mar 8, 2018)

Sables galore has kind of been my experience in my region as well. We have a lot of sables, and a lot of sable champions here. I believe a couple years back the #2 dog was actually a sable. That's kind of why I asked, as it seems that people are not opposed to sable itself, because you see it often enough, but opposed to sable x sable breedings, as you never see that. I'm going through my head right now and can't think of a single ASL sable x sable breeding. Maybe it's a regional thing or maybe it actually is indeed avoided?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have a homozygous sable male used for breeding. I am not so crazy about his color, his mother was my ideal. He has been bred almost exclusively to black females, and has produced gorgeous dark pigment in every litter. He is producing his mother's pigment in a high percentage of pups - nice dark dark sables....Ken Cleanair has a son of his, a sable. Right now I have a co-owned litter of 7 very very dark sables from him. His female littermate carries black recessive, and has only been bred to sables and has produced both sables and blacks.

Is it a problem that he will only produce sable? Sure, occasionally I have someone who just HAS to have a black puppy, but seriously, temperament, health and working ability are more important. With his oldest pups less than 2, he already has one trialing this month, and another going for detection certification in a few weeks (the littermate to Ken's) Producing ability is more important than color.


Lee


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