# inbreeding puppy risks ?



## AK_rob (Jul 13, 2020)

Thanks a lot for viewing this post. I paid $700 deposit for a $2500 GSD showline puppy. Both of the parents are imported from Europe, however, after checked the pedigree, I found a female dog (ancestor ) is the mother of the dam and the grand mother of the sire. I checked the ACK regulation, they said the limit is 2-3 (means a dog can appear in 2nd gen and 3 gen of the puppy pedigree). But I am still worried a lot. So, any thoughts? potential risks ?

Thanks a lot.


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## iBite (Jun 24, 2020)

I personally wish they would stop doing that... it’s normal, but why... it does more harm than good... we’ve suspected for a long time inbreeding isn’t good, now we have DNA evidence ifs really not good. 
Anyway, that by itself wouldn’t stop me from buying a particular dog I liked... but I’d be a lot happier if I didn’t see line breeding in their pedigree.


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## AK_rob (Jul 13, 2020)

iBite said:


> I personally wish they would stop doing that... it’s normal, but why... it does more harm than good... we’ve suspected for a long time inbreeding isn’t good, now we have DNA evidence ifs really not good.
> Anyway, that by itself wouldn’t stop me from buying a particular dog I liked... but I’d be a lot happier if I didn’t see line breeding in their pedigree.


Thanks a lot IBite! I know this is really not good, the German has prohibit 2-3 line inbreeding since 2013... Since GSD has some potential gen disease, I am worried about my future puppy may suffer any.... But I really like both parents . What a hard decision for me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Typically a good breeder tries to avoid this until they have a specific reason for doing so. I believe 2-3 is the closest the SV allows. It's called "line breeding" not "inbreeding". They do this to set traits and then outcross. The closest I've, personally, seen breeders do is 4-4, and 3-5. That close line breeding should be done with purpose and carefully thought out.

This can bring out the good as well as the bad. I would ask the breeder what their purpose is for breeding this close on these lines. If they don't have a good reason, walk away.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> It's called "line breeding" not "inbreeding".


A rose by any other name...  Nope, it's still inbreeding in my book. Due to my training in genetics/biology, I'd likely give this breeding a pass. I think too much inbreeding has been responsible for the expected lifespan of the GSD dropping to about 10 years, whereas it used to be about 12 to 13.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Sunsilver Whatever.....go roll your eyes elsewhere. There was no need to be rude when I was simply explaining the terminology breeders use to the OP regardless of what is in your "book".


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, if you had known the pedigree earlier would you still have paid the deposit? If not, you can try to get it back or else call it a $700 lesson. It may save you many $$$ down the road in health costs if this breeding was not carefully thought out. If yes, then I wouldn't worry about it and enjoy your pup when you get him home. Put him on pet insurance asap.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Typically a good breeder tries to avoid this until they have a specific reason for doing so. I believe 2-3 is the closest the SV allows. It's called "line breeding" not "inbreeding". They do this to set traits and then outcross. The closest I've, personally, seen breeders do is 4-4, and 3-5. That close line breeding should be done with purpose and carefully thought out.
> 
> This can bring out the good as well as the bad. I would ask the breeder what their purpose is for breeding this close on these lines. If they don't have a good reason, walk away.


SV no longer allows 2-3. The closest you can do now is 3-3. 

I have a number of dogs that are linebred 3-4 or 4-3.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Tikkie said:


> SV no longer allows 2-3. The closest you can do now is 3-3.
> 
> I have a number of dogs that are linebred 3-4 or 4-3.


That was changed within the last 3 years, right? 2-3 was the old allowance? 

BTW.....That 4-4 Karn litter looks to be SUPER nice and balanced. <3.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A good breeder who understands linebreeding and does it correctly can set very important traits and be more positive they will end up in the puppies they have bred. But they must know what they are doing. I asked my breeder at our first visit if she does Linebreeding and she said No, but she has imported linebred dogs, very rarely, for very good reasons.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> A rose by any other name...  Nope, it's still inbreeding in my book. Due to my training in genetics/biology, I'd likely give this breeding a pass. I think too much inbreeding has been responsible for the expected lifespan of the GSD dropping to about 10 years, whereas it used to be about 12 to 13.


To date, all of my GSDS have lived to age 13-14. I think it’s much more complicated. The other things that have changed since I got my first dog are food products, medications, and vaccines and formulas. Even yard products are different.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

essentially inbreeding and linebreeding are the same..... i differentiate between the two depending on the breeders intent (or lack of), also factoring in their knowledge/goals/experience.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

AK_rob said:


> Thanks a lot for viewing this post. I paid $700 deposit for a $2500 GSD showline puppy. Both of the parents are imported from Europe, however, after checked the pedigree, I found a female dog (ancestor ) is the mother of the dam and the grand mother of the sire. I checked the ACK regulation, they said the limit is 2-3 (means a dog can appear in 2nd gen and 3 gen of the puppy pedigree). But I am still worried a lot. So, any thoughts? potential risks ?
> 
> Thanks a lot.


Before you saw the pedigree, what did you like about this breeding? How did you make the decision to place a deposit? I’m curious why you didn’t check the pedigree before paying? Are you willing to lose the deposit if you can’t get it back? If it bothers you a lot, you might want to pass. It could be an excellent breeding, though.


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## Jonah D (May 24, 2021)

Many breeders who do not understand the risks and benefits of 'linebreeding' breed animals with multiple distant linebreeding on several ancestors, believing that this is somehow better.
It is actually far worse, and completely without benefit. 
To make matters worse, these cases are also often without consideration for type, compensation for weaknesses, solidifying strengths, etc.
The results are often extremely inconsistent, essentially rendering the concept of a purebreed meaningless, which is even more apparent in full outcrosses, such as working lines to show lines, American to German, or even so greatly divergent lines that no common ancestors appear for 10 or more generations. 
A particularly excellent specimen that has diminished genetic diversity due to a close up linebreeding on a single equally or even more excellent ancestor, and with whom he or she shares clear phenotypical traits that are desirable, MAY demonstrate genetic prepotency for those traits, even to the degree that outcross offspring will exhibit those desirable traits.
However, outcross offspring that exhibit the desirable traits of a prepotent sire or dam are unlikely to pass the same traits on to their own offspring with any consistency, particularly if the sire and dam are mismatched for phenotype of the traits in question.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They say the best way to get a champion out of a champion is to line breed, the sire of the sire, being the grandsire of the dam. Which is what you are talking about. What can happen? Well, while the close breeding itself will not create issues, issues that are there are more likely to come out in the litter. Why? Because issues that are genetic, are often recessive and when you have recessive genes on both sides of the equation, the likeliness of the recessive being passed on by both the sire and the dam goes up. I don't see this as deal-changer, but I would want to know why they chose to breed that closely and what they hoping to achieve. 

Twice I have sold more than one dog to people who chose to breed them together. Both were 2-3 breedings. One had a litter of six, one of which needed to be put down because of liver shunts. The other had a litter of one which was terribly deformed and they let the vet put it down. They tried the breeding again, and got a normal litter. I have bred 3-3, usually after an outcross. An outcross will usually give you a litter that is all over the place. The idea is to bring in some trait or a number of traits into your lines. We outcross for a purpose. But then we breed back into our lines. Maybe not 2-3, or even 3-3. But we want to assimilate that dogs traits into what we we like about what we are producing. We want to have uniform litters, and especially if you go outside the lines, like you are breeding German Showlines, and you incorporate a working line dog in there or an American bred dog, you would then want to come back into your own lines to kind of set, bring back the type of dog you are breeding. 

Talk to your breeder and ask her reasons for breeding that close. A lot of times people do it because it is for nothing more than convenience. They won't say that, of course, but by their answer to the question you can make a decision on whether or not to pass on the pup.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The OP posted this 10 months ago. Curious what the decision was and if he decided to go ahead, how the dog is doing?


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