# Sticky  Success: stem cell treatment for degenerative myelopathy



## RebelGSD

Gait before treatment




 
Entering the car - before treatment




Neuro exam before treatment




Three months later, two days after third treatment


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## 1sttimeforgsd

That is great that Riley is doing so good. Thanks for the video's, they are very helpful and educational.


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## Pattycakes

So good to see that Riley is doing so well. 

Have to say, watching the first couple videos made me cry. Brought back memories of my Alexi who had DM. 

Love the last video of Riley having a good time!


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## RebelGSD

Being able to demonstrate such dramatic improvement with stem cell therapy also has huge implications for humans with neurological disease and spinal cord injuries.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This is truly incredible - thank you for posting this Rebel!

Is there a place where people can get more information?


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## RebelGSD

Not yet, this treatment is very experimental. Two GSDs were treated up to date (Riley being one of them). The other GSD showed dramatic improvement as well after 4 treatments. His disease was more advanced.


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## Jax08

I have great hopes for stem cell therapy. This is wonderful news!


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## CarrieJ

That was amazing. Thanks for sharing.




> Is there a place where people can get more information?


Yep, yep....please?


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## arycrest

It's nothing short of a miracle. I lost Tasha, my first GSD, to DM and am almost in tears that there may finally be something on the horizon that will spare dogs and their owners from the heartbreak of this debilitating disease.

Thanks for posting this!!!


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## RebelGSD

arycrest said:


> It's nothing short of a miracle. I lost Tasha, my first GSD, to DM and am almost in tears that there may finally be something on the horizon that will spare dogs and their owners from the heartbreak of this debilitating disease.
> 
> Thanks for posting this!!!


I agree, I am in awe myself, seeing a dog that was falling down the stairs jumping into a pretty high truck. I have seen the video of a mouse improving, but this is a big animal. And thinking of the hope the treatment offers many animals and humans - it is simply humbling. I am sure everybody who lost a dog to DM (i did) will understand.

This is so new that it has not been published anywhere yet (I just made the movie last week). There is another GSD who is a similar amazing success story (I have his movie), but that 's it. I am hoping that these successes will help raising funds to broaden the research.


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## asja

Thanks for posting. 

Was that VetStem, or another place? Where were the stem cells injected?

Three years ago we treated our German Shepherd Boris with VetStem stem cell therapy for arthritis in both hips and one knee. It worked great! I was very impressed. Unfortunately Boris passed away five months later from hemangiosarcoma. But I like reading about the stem cell therapies, just in case for another dog.


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## RebelGSD

It is not vetstem. It is university research. I will ask for permission to name the institution. These are bone marrow stem cells. The Stem cells were injected IV, so that part is relatively easy.
Sorry to hear about Boris, I lost two to hemangiosarcoma.


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## M&J

Amazing.


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## wolfstraum

Wonderful!!!!!!!!!! I lost my Alice to progressive neurological issues (she had also been hit by a car so never knew for sure if it was the car or DM)

I know it is being done in horses - I have friends who are equine vets, and they did this a few months ago on a horse and the horse showed dramatic improvement...not a university - but a fairly sophisticated equine clinic (they do some work on dogs as well) - about 30 miles southeast of Pittsburgh PA

Lee


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## BowWowMeow

Wow! That's amazing! Thanks for posting.


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## RebelGSD

What is even more amazing is that Riley showed significant improvement after two weeks (after the first) treatment. We expected noticeable improvement after 4 treatments and they showed after two treatments. The other GSD remained stable for 18 months after treatment. I think that this will work for injuries as well, the treatment is certainly not limitedbto DM.


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## LisaT

Absolutely incredible! Thank you for posting!


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## RebelGSD

If anyone has a dog with DM an is interested in pursuing stem cell treatment, please PM me and I can provide contact information.


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## KZoppa

wow. That is just amazing! the first video brought tears to my eyes because he moved the way i once saw a coyote move after being hit by a car in front of me. And to see, what is such a dramatic improvement.... that is just wow.


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## Fafhrd

This is the best news I've seen in a long while. My previous dog became very crippled from DM, and I just barely kept him hobbling for a year and a half with the two medicines that Dr. Clemmens recommends, but he got progressively worse despite the medicines.

Thanks for posting.


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## RebelGSD

It never ceases to amaze me. This is the video of his after- treatment neurological exam.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14310853/Riley Herman May 10.mov


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## alaman

Please check your PM

Thanks




RebelGSD said:


> If anyone has a dog with DM an is interested in pursuing stem cell treatment, please PM me and I can provide contact information.


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## RebelGSD

Responded


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## marshies

This is amazing!Thank you so much for sharing. The videos have really made an impact in me, and I think will have the same impact on many others.

To think that THIS much improvement can be seen in Riley, and yet, there are still people who refuse to look at this advancement fairly and give it a due scientific research process.

I hope when and if I ever deal with disorders that can be treated via stem cell therapy, it will be a more available procedure.


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## RebelGSD

Riley continues to do well several months after the last treatment.
He was re-evaluated last week by the treating veterinarian and he is doing great for an 11.5 yo GSD.


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## Jax08

That's wonderful! I have great hope for stem cell therapy in many areas of medicine.


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## RebelGSD

I feel the same, I think it is the future of medicine. It is a pity that there are so many hurdles in research on humans.


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## dvitola

Hi all, I am new to this Forum and need some help for my GSD.

My boy Hans (9yrs old) has DM and I am looking for any and all information on the stem cell Therapy. Also, any information on vitamins or any thing else would be appreciated. I have him in a Biko Brace now to be able to exercise him more and that seems to be helping. I have had to put boots on both back feet because of dragging and wearing the nails down to bleeding. They also seem to be helping and he is such a good boy about anything I put on him. I also take him swimming every other day which he loves!


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## DanielleOttoMom

WOW truly Amazing! Riley looks great what a big change in such little time. Speachless.....


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## LisaT

dvitola said:


> Hi all, I am new to this Forum and need some help for my GSD.
> 
> My boy Hans (9yrs old) has DM and I am looking for any and all information on the stem cell Therapy. Also, any information on vitamins or any thing else would be appreciated. I have him in a Biko Brace now to be able to exercise him more and that seems to be helping. I have had to put boots on both back feet because of dragging and wearing the nails down to bleeding. They also seem to be helping and he is such a good boy about anything I put on him. I also take him swimming every other day which he loves!


DM is such a terrible disease, I'm sorry that you are dealing with it.

You might need to pm the OP about the stem cell question, if she doesn't see this post later. My understanding is that this is still in the experimental phase, but it's VERY exciting.

There is a Health Sticky at the top of the health forum, which has information DM and other spinal conditions. You will have to scroll down and find the actual thread, or do a search in the page, the links got messed up when the board changed over.


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## dvitola

Thank you for the information. I have PM Riley's owner so hopefully she will get back to me soon. I also found your links very helpful and have already emailed to inquire about the stem cell treatment. Thank you again and I will update Hans' progress.


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## tchouros

*Sadie's stem cell journey - so far.*



dvitola said:


> Hi all, I am new to this Forum and need some help for my GSD.
> 
> My boy Hans (9yrs old) has DM and I am looking for any and all information on the stem cell Therapy. Also, any information on vitamins or any thing else would be appreciated. I have him in a Biko Brace now to be able to exercise him more and that seems to be helping. I have had to put boots on both back feet because of dragging and wearing the nails down to bleeding. They also seem to be helping and he is such a good boy about anything I put on him. I also take him swimming every other day which he loves!


My 12 yr old female had bad hips. She would walk with her feet together, drag her paws and hold her back legs together until the very bottom and took very short steps. Glucosimine worked great for years but was no longer able to help. I went to her vet to discuss pain management options and learned about the treatment. We proceded in early May. I will try to describe her journey so far - good and bad. If you don't care to read it all, long story short, I would DEFINITELY do this procedure again. Not only is she able to stand up without struggling but is apparently no longer in pain, easily goes up and down stairs, plays with the other dogs and is truly enjoying her life again - not just living it out.

- Went to vet, found out about procedure and decided to proceed. While doing pre-procedure health testing, we discovered she had "breakthrough heartworms" that were not seen in her annual exam four months earlier. While on heartworm preventative her entire life, it seems she is one of the breakthrough cases found in the Mississippi River area. We chose to do the stem cell first then wait a month before starting heartworm treatment.
-Post surgery pain was more than I had anticipated. She was hurting pretty badly for a few days and was clearly sore for a few days after that.
- We saw no improvement unit about four weeks. Over night her stride started to get longer and longer. This continued to improve for the next few weeks.
-While her stride was improving, one leg seemed significantly weaker than the other. This lasted about 2 - 3 weeks until the leg seemed to catch up to the other.
- About 7 - 8 weeks post procedure, we saw that she started carrying her legs further apart and no longer had the mermaid effect going on. 
-While her range of motion and spread of the back legs continued to improve, her legs appeared to be wobbling very badly at this stage. While I suspected, her vet confirmed that her muscles had atrophied from lack of use. Because of the heartworm treatment, we have to be very careful and conservative with her therapy for this. We take short walks in tall grass so she has to pick up her back legs. I also tickle her belly so she will kick the back legs. BTW, she had not kicked her back legs during belly rubs for YEARS until having the stem cell therapy. Now it happens every time she gets her belly rubbed and she seems to love it. Her legs muscles seemed to be improving slowly but surely. Her vet says this will probably take longer than the joint regeneration.
- It is the third week of July and this is where we are so far. My vet continues routine follow up on her (weekly) as he is extremely interested in her progress as she is only his third stem cell dog. His was his first. It was a bird dog with bad back legs and and a front shoulder degenerative disease that had plagued the dog since it was four years old. He says that while the experts say you can expect to see improvement for up to three months, he has seen his dog continue to improve for the last six months although not as significantly as the first few. He has posted a video on youtube of his dog before the procedure and two months later. You can view it by going to youtube, then search "Hillcrest animal hospital" and click on the stem cell video that comes up. For me, it is the first video under that search. 

Good luck with your dog. I can truly empathize with you and hope if you choose to do this, your dog has as much success as mine.
-


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## tchouros

*More input from Sadie's mom*



dvitola said:


> Hi all, I am new to this Forum and need some help for my GSD.
> 
> My boy Hans (9yrs old) has DM and I am looking for any and all information on the stem cell Therapy. Also, any information on vitamins or any thing else would be appreciated. I have him in a Biko Brace now to be able to exercise him more and that seems to be helping. I have had to put boots on both back feet because of dragging and wearing the nails down to bleeding. They also seem to be helping and he is such a good boy about anything I put on him. I also take him swimming every other day which he loves!


I have noticed in some of the other posts they talked about their dogs "maintaining". I wanted to emphasize that my vet was clear that this is only successful in about 80% of the dogs that it is conducted on so far. His training in the procedure was recent, Jan 2011, so I am pretty sure he has up to date information. I can tell you that Sadie has not only maintained but we have seen SIGNIFICANT improvement. I took preprocedure videos of her condition. In those, she would not go up the steps for my husband although she was dying to be with him. They also show her not wanting to stand up and struggling when she did. There are also some of her labored walking. I am waiting to shoot the "after" videos for another three weeks or more so she is off heartworm house arrest. I will post these on youtube after she is free to roam and go wide open. She is dying to run and I can't wait to see that. I can tell you that it is amazing seeing what has happened so far. She gets up relatively easily and without pain, sneaks up the steps anytime she can if someone is upstairs even though we have them blocked as part of her house arrest. She also jumps in the car before I can slow her down when she is on her way for her vet check ups. This is something she hasn't been able to do in years. However, the most amazing part is seeing her _enjoying _being a dog again and having that "sparkle" back in her eyes.


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## asja

tchouros, does your dog have DM, or just bad hips? Which stem cell therapy did you use? Did you use Vet Stem? In any case, it's good to hear of her improvement!


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## tchouros

asja said:


> tchouros, does your dog have DM, or just bad hips? Which stem cell therapy did you use? Did you use Vet Stem? In any case, it's good to hear of her improvement!


I am sorry, to be honest, I cannot remember if it was Vet Stem. When we looked into it, I had the website and looked up all the information I could but my vet has just always referred to it as stem cell. I will ask him the next time we are in there which is about 1 1/2 weeks from now. What is the difference? I can tell you her vet harvested her fat, removed the stem cells and did the injection in both hips all in the same day. The remaining stem cells were administered via I.V. Within a few months of first discussing it with my vet, the procedure went from him harvesting the cells and having to send them off where they would come back in two weeks and he would do the injection to him actually doing it all in house. This update seems to have been pretty recent (since January). I also know he sheduled the procedure on his day off so he could spend the entire day with her to make sure everything was perfect and she was doing well.

Sadie had arthritis in her hips. We searched a long time to find a good breeder and both her parents were OFA certified. We hoped she wouldn't have any hip problems but she is a big girl and we started to notice her symptoms when she was about nine or so. The picture below is not her but looks identical to how she carried her legs prior to having the procedure. It hurts me to even look at this picture. But I am happy to say that we now see her in her beautiful gsd stance with that back leg kicked out.


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## dvitola

Thank you for all the information. I am glad your girl is doing better. I am waiting for the only vet I know of in AZ to get back to me, and hopefully we can start with the treatment. I know he has been doing the fat stem cell for dogs with arthritis so hopefully he has contacts about the bone stem treatment too. Let me know when you post the new youtube video, I love to see the dogs enjoying themselves again. Hoping I will have my own to post soon. If anyone out there knows more about the bone stem cell treatment for dogs with DM, please let me know who or where I need to contact for information. Good luck to you all!


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## RebelGSD

Sorry, I was traveling and did not have Internet for a while. The stem cells Riley received were bone marrow stem cells and they were administered by IV. The vet who developed the procedure ships them all over the country so they can be administered by a local vet.
I responded to the pm with contact information.


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## dvitola

Thank You!!!! I will give the information to my Vet and will keep you updated on Hans progress.


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## Mary Jane

Rebel,

First of all sincere congratulations on Riley's progress. I can't tell you how rewarding it is to see that some research procedures yield such productive results.

I do research biology and will look forward to seeing this bone marrow stem cell transplant published. There has been tremendous excitement about the ability of some bone marrow cells to differentiate broadly and replace several absent cell lineages-but some of the published work has also been contested.

You can't contest that change in Riley's gait.

thanks for the information and the very good news,
Mary Jane


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## RebelGSD

It is hard to make a controlled study for DM and quantify outcomes. I know how to quantify, but funds would be needed for then instrumentation and analysis (software development). Unfortunately the video cannot go into the journal paper. Luckily Riley's progress is well documented, with me, the neurologist and the investigator taking the videos. I am looking forward to seeing it published too.

Considering the speed of Riley's recovery, it is possible that there is repair going on (as opposed to or in addition to new cell formation). The neurons would take more time to regrow.


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## Mary Jane

RebelGSD said:


> Considering the speed of Riley's recovery, it is possible that there is repair going on (as opposed to or in addition to new cell formation). The neurons would take more time to regrow.


Yes, as I understand it-that is the contested point: whether the stem cells actually differentiate to form neurons (or other non-hematopoietic cells) or whether they provide growth factors that enable some repair of the host cells.

I see how interesting the research is and with Riley, and others like him, how important it may prove to be.

all the best,
MJ


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## RebelGSD

My sense is that initially it is the latter, repair, and maybe at a later stage neurons are also formed. The success for DM is better when the disease is not too advanced, I am speculating that there are enough neurons to repair. The other dog that had his treatment over a year ago is still doing well (4the dog was worse than Riley), so the effect of the treatment is lasting.

The only way to know for sure is to kill the dog and analyze the spinal cord. Obviously no dog owner will allow that and no responsible veterinarian would do it.

I think that the attitude of the community has to change and they have to start accepting proof based on treatment outcomes, such as my video records.


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## Pattycakes

I think its wonderful how well your dog is doing, RebelGSD.  I hope they continue to do research on DM with stem cells.


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## dvitola

Hi All

Hans is going in this Tuesday for his first Stem Cell Treatment. My doctor has the equipment in house to process the stem cells after he retrieves them from Hans. If all goes well, Hans will be home with me by 2pm. Please say a prayer for my puppy! I will keep you updated on his progress. Thank you all for all your kind words and information on Stem Cell Research. With any luck, no dog will have to worry about DM in the next couple of years!


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## cindy_s

Great news that there may be a treatment of value. I wish it came 6 yrs ago


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## RebelGSD

Good luck to Hans, we will be beaming positive thoughts your way. This is a different approach from the one we used - I hope it works equally well.


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## dvitola

Hi All

Hans came through the Stem Cell Procedure like the trooper he is and is home resting on his favorite pillow. Thank you all for your positive thinking and prayers! Hopefully we will start seeing improvement in 3-4 weeks.


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## alienegypt

Positive healing vibes to Hans!

RebelGSD, I sent you a PM.


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## RebelGSD

Any news about Hans? 
Riley recovered beautifully from bloat and is still happy, active and chasing the ball.


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## dvitola

Great news about Riley, keep throwing that ball!

Yesterday was 4 weeks since Hans' first treatment and he has shown improvement. Very rarely does he cross his paws in the back now and he is starting to get his gait movement back when trotting and not "bunny hopping" all the time. He still drags his left paw, but I haven't seen him this happy in about 6 months! I can't stop him from wanting to play ball! He goes in tomorrow for his 2nd stem cell treatment and to remove more fat from his other side to get more stem cells for use later on if needed. Please keep him in your thoughts and prayers and I will let you know how he is after surgery tomorrow.

PS I think every German Shepherd owner should own stock in a rubber ball company!


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## dvitola

Hans came through his second surgery and stem cell treatment with no problems. The fat taken this time has produced 1.08 billion, yes billion, stem cells. That means we have a total of 9 more stem cell treatments if we need them. His third and hopefully final stem cell treatment will be in 45 days. I will keep you updated on his progress.


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## OzGSD

Hi RebelGSD, just letting you know that I sent you a PM about a weeks ago and I'm not sure whether you've checked your inbox or not as I haven't received a reply. I'd highly appreciate it if you could get back to me. As I explained in my email, I'm very close to having to put my dog down as I've tried everything so far except for the stem-cell treatment. And I would like your advise on it. I've explained everything in detail in my email. Thanks.


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## RebelGSD

Sorry, I was flooded in hurricane Irene and the next one as well as out of power and did not get much on line. I will check my PMs. The situation was bad around here.

My veterinarian has shipped stem cells to different veterinary offices in the US and Canada, where the treatment was administered (stem cells injected IV). I am not sure whether the stem cells would be viable longer distances, such as Australia. You can check shipping times from California to your location.

The stem cells that were administered to Riley were bone marrow stem cells from a donor (not fat stem cells that are typically used for treatment of arthritis).

The level of improvement may be dependent on how advanced the disease is.


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## RebelGSD

The lab that did Riley's stem cell treatment just opened a web page and the page has some information about the treatment:

Contact us at ReGena-Vet Laboratories, LLC


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## Katerlena

Incredible the videos are remarkable (I can't even see Rileys gait post treatment hes moving so fast with his ball!)

Hope Riley and Hans continue to improve--what a joy it must be to see them playing like that again


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## MatsiRed

Hi Rebel,

Thank-you for pointing me to this thread. This is incredibly interesting, and I love the videos. Visuals can be very convincing.

I also skimmed the website link you posted. Will read more closely when I get back.

If possible, I'd love to hear more details about the actual process of stem cell therapy (acceptance criteria for the dog, prep work, auto vs allo, possible complications such as graft vs host disease, potential cost to the consumer as things stand so far, etc). I realize it's unpublished research and still in its infancy, so may not be able to discuss publicly, but anything you or others can share would be appreciated.

I have both Star and Duke with advanced DM, and although I'm not interested in pursuing information for personal reasons (at least, I don't 'think' I am), but I'm also a stem cell transplant nurse so I'm interested in all this from a professional standpoint...


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## RebelGSD

Why don't you just call me? Late evening is best.


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## rebelsgirl

It is amazing what they can do now. I wish there had been something like this for Rebel when he was alive. He suffered so much with this. I'm glad they are finding a way to treat this horrible disease.


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## RJ145

*Dextramethorphan*

Hello, I'm new to this thread. 

Haven't read everything here, but I wanted to post an article on a recent study in July. It showed that dextramethorphan, the main ingredient in cough medicine, had a beneficial effect on myelin. 

Researchers wonder, therefor, if dextramethorphan might help MS patients. As both DM and MS involve a breakdown in myelin, I've had my dog on a daily dose of cough medicine. My vet, after reading the study, recommended the dosage based on body weight. I use the OTC brands and formulations that don't have other cold ingredients in them. 

Link to article:

Component of common cough medicine may help treat multiple sclerosis - UC Davis Health System Newsroom


ara


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## RebelGSD

Just updating this thread, Riley continues to do well.
Just vin case someone is dealing with degenerative myelopathy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Amazing!!!!!!!!


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## LisaT

I agree


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## RebelGSD

Every time I look at him I think about how lucky we are to live in a time when a treatment like this is possible. I will be eternally grateful to the vet who enabled this. Hopefully humans will be allowed to benefit from stem cell treatment one day.


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## Series007

RJ145 said:


> Hello, I'm new to this thread.
> 
> Haven't read everything here, but I wanted to post an article on a recent study in July. It showed that dextramethorphan, the main ingredient in cough medicine, had a beneficial effect on myelin.
> 
> Researchers wonder, therefor, if dextramethorphan might help MS patients. As both DM and MS involve a breakdown in myelin, I've had my dog on a daily dose of cough medicine. My vet, after reading the study, recommended the dosage based on body weight. I use the OTC brands and formulations that don't have other cold ingredients in them.
> 
> Link to article:
> 
> Component of common cough medicine may help treat multiple sclerosis - UC Davis Health System Newsroom
> 
> 
> ara



Can you tell us what brand cough medicine you are using and the dosage (what weight is your dog)?


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## dvitola

Hi

Can you let me know what cough medicine you are using and how much your dog weighs. Hans is 84lbs. I would like to start him on it asap.
Thanks


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## starrchar

*Need information on DM stem cell therapy*

I joined this board years ago, but haven't been here for a very long time. I have a female GSD long coat rescue named Shelby that I adopted 3 1/2 years ago and to make a long story short, she was diagnosed with DM in January 2011. She has been on the Dr. Clemmons' protocol since then. She has also been given acupuncture, laser therapy, physical therapy and stem cell therapy, as well as a natural raw diet. The stem cell therapy was done through Renovoctye lab. THe stem cells were harvested from a couple punch biopsies of the shoulder/neck region. Shelby had two treatments thus far. Her second treatment was about 6 weeks ago and I've not seen anything remarkable. She is continuing to decline. 

A poster from the PDB told me about someone on this board (RebelGSD) who has a dog named Riley with DM that was treated with stem cell therapy, with encouraging results. I went through the thread and found that Riley was treated with cells harvested from bone marrow. I also found the link to the stem cell lab and the website states that they are not accepting any more applicants. If anyone has anymore info on this I would greatly appreciate it. I have lots of questions! 

I will do anything possible to help my sweet girl. She is still holding her own, but is deteriorating before my eyes. I am still holding out hope that there is something that can help her. 

I would PM or email Riley's owner, but haven't figured out this board yet! 

PLease forgive me for not knowing how to navigate this board very well! I actually thought I was replying to the original DM thread, but was confused by the fact that I needed a title!


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## RebelGSD

They may not be accepting dogs for the trial any longer, but I believe you can still get the treatment if you pay for the stem cells. The stem cells are bone marrow stem cells.
The lab that did it for us was Regenavetlabs. They would ship the stem cells to a vet who administers them.


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## starrchar

Thank you so much for the information. Is Riley continuing to improve? Did the stems cells come from a donor or from Riley? 
Thank you,
Char


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## starrchar

Regarding the Dextramethorphan, are you seeing any improvement? Also, how is the doasage calculated? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Char


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## GSDBESTK9

That is awesome!


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## RebelGSD

Riley is doing amazingly well for a 12yo. We fetch every day, even in this brutal cold, he seems to be in his element. He does have some arthritis too.

The stem cells are donor stem cells. They tried with the dog's own stem cells in the early stages of the research, however, it turned out that the DM dogs did not produce enough stem cells for the treatment. These are bone marrow stem cells, not those from fat.


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## RebelGSD

They do the matching of blood type with the donor. Riley was a blood donor for many years, so we knew his blood type.
Before they start the IV with the stem cells, the dog receives a prednisone injection. The day before the treatment, the dog is started on cyclosporine (immunosuppressant) and remains on it for one week. Riley spent around 3 hours at the vet for the IV. He was evaluated for his general health before the treatment.


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## starrchar

THank you for the information RebelGSD. I'm so glad Riley is doing so well. That is awesome!


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## starrchar

RileyGSD, I called and emailed Regenavet early yesterday, but they have not gotten back to me. Did you find that it took them a while to return your calls and/or emails?


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## RebelGSD

I heard from people that it takes a while for them to get back to people as Dr. Vuilliet tends to travel a lot. I suggest being persistent and re-sending an email until you hear back. The do respond eventually.


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## starrchar

Thank you RebelGSD. They called today and I spoke to them for quite a while. I am taking Shelby to the vet tomorrow to discuss whether or not to move foreward with this. It's another $2,400 after already spending $2000 at Renovocyte. If there was a guarantee it would work, I wouldn't give it second thought.


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## RebelGSD

I am just bumping up this thread since there were quite a few DM related threads recently.


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## RebelGSD

Riley, at 12.5, continues to do well and does the best to chase his ball.
Bumping up this thread in case someone is interested in DM treatment.


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## rockyhusky

Thanks alot Rebel for bringing this up on this forum, I have been strongly considering this option for sometime in the very near future.

I am located in Los Angeles and have been directly in contact with a doctor at medivet.

Can you please send me more info regarding this? Also if you can include how much you paid for the whole procedure i would really appreciate it.

Thanks and keep us updated on your dog, it is very good news, congrats!!


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## RebelGSD

Riley's treatment was done by ReGenaVetLabs. We were in a trial and the stem cells were free. I paid around $300-400 per round for the medication (atopica) and administration. The administration cost can very depending on how expensive the local vet is. Mine was pretty expensive.

Doing treatment earlier is better, before there is extensive damage.


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## rockyhusky

So I would have to get the bone marrow stem cells directly from them?


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## RebelGSD

Yes, they ship it by FedEx overnight


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## supercamp

How is Riley?


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## RebelGSD

Riley is getting up there in age, will be 13 in February. This summer he came down with old dog vestibular syndrome, which left him somewhat wobbly and uncoordinated. But he is still chasing his ball, carrying around his 5 yard stick and demanding tug of war to play with me. In his mind he is still a puppy. I am so blessed with this wonderful dog.


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## alane

Does anyone have the dosing amount and how often to give the Dextromethorphan?


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## chemist690

*Stem cell facility?*



RebelGSD said:


> I agree, I am in awe myself, seeing a dog that was falling down the stairs jumping into a pretty high truck. I have seen the video of a mouse improving, but this is a big animal. And thinking of the hope the treatment offers many animals and humans - it is simply humbling. I am sure everybody who lost a dog to DM (i did) will understand.
> 
> This is so new that it has not been published anywhere yet (I just made the movie last week). There is another GSD who is a similar amazing success story (I have his movie), but that 's it. I am hoping that these successes will help raising funds to broaden the research.



Can you please elaborate on where you had the stem cell therapy done? how well did it work? Thank you


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## Marnie

My vets just started offering this treatment for several degenerative problems. Your post was very interesting. I hope your dog continues to respond well to the treatment. Please, please keep us posted.


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## milo12

Does anyone know of a vet in California that offers this treatment?

I went to the ReGenaVetLabs site and it says they are not accepting patients.

My dog started exhibiting symptoms within the last week. I am amazed at the speed it has progressed. A week ago we were having fun at the park, today she is having trouble controlling her right rear leg.

Thanks in advance.


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## arycrest

Milo12 ... are you sure your dog has DM? What did your vet do to diagnose it? DM is a disease of exclusion and a week sounds like a short time from noticing the first symptom to reaching a diagnosis.


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## dcg9381

arycrest said:


> Milo12 ... are you sure your dog has DM? What did your vet do to diagnose it? DM is a disease of exclusion and a week sounds like a short time from noticing the first symptom to reaching a diagnosis.



Specifically, did you have an MRI done or any other examination type that looks internally for other root neurological causes? In my experience, show a vet a GSD that has rear end gait problems that are neurological and they'll diagnose DM. If you see a veterinary neurologist, they'll tell you that they need to do an MRI (about $3k around here) to rule out other root causes. 

Is your dog positive for a genetic marker related to DM? Which "genetic" test did you use?


It's *great* news that your dog is improving. However, other results that I've seen on DM dogs in regard to stem cells were not nearly as promising.... We don't want other owners thinking that this is a DM cure or treatment when it may not be viable in all cases.

Again, so glad that it's working for you!


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## RebelGSD

It sounds like you did not read the post, the questions you raised were addressed in the post. No, I did not do necropsy on my dog prior to the stem cell treatment to prove DM with certainty.

While my post shows evidence for one case (I do have an even more striking video for another dog), I don't see you providing any evidence for your negative conclusions and discrediting remarks. It would be nice if you showed the same level of proof for negative results that you demand for positives. What kinds of stem cells were used? How were they administered? were the negative results published in a peer-reviewed forum? Where was the treatment done?

This is a free country. Pet owners have the option to chose a treatment method that has not been shown to work for every case - they don't have to. But they deserve to have the information to make a choice. Who is the "we" you are referring to?


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## dcg9381

I've never done stem cell treatment. I'm not discrediting your results at all, your results just are and I think it's absolutely GREAT that stem cells worked in your case.

I am asking questions, before stem cells are hailed as a miracle cure for DM:

Did this dog have *confirmed* DM? Although necropsy is really the only way to absolutely confirm, MRIs typically "rule out" other root causes. In my experience, show a vet a shepherd with rear end neurological issues and they'll diagnose DM, which may be right in most cases. DM cannot be diagnosed reasonably without MRI and cannot be diagnosed definitively without necropsy.

I know of others who have tried stem cells, over on a DM specific forum: The DM Message Board ? Index page (you need to register to view). I saw zero positive results over there, but the same questions would apply - are the owners sure it was DM? What makes the owners sure? What type of stem cells were tried?

What would be great is a double blind academic study. If stem cells treatment had been substantially successful, I assume there would be one, but maybe not. What did your vet tell you about this treatment? Had it worked before? Was it experimental?

Again, I'm not knocking your results - And stem cells may be an option that some owners should try. I'm cautioning owners that stem cells may not be a DM "cure", that's all... And I'm asking questions about how deep you went in terms of diagnosis to determine DM or other neurological condition because unless the root cause is confirmed, you may be treating something else entirely.. I've read about GSD owners that have tried Asian medicine including implants to Accupuncture and stuff beyond that. 

Absolutely no offense was intended.


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## dcg9381

Rebel, I did a little more digging.
One DVM (neuro) that I really respect for his work specifically with our breed and DM is Dr. Clemmons of the University of FL. He was looking at stem cells in 2006. Here's the reference and here is the paraphrased take away:




> Dr. Clemmons has been doing a limited number of stem cell transplants, on dogs that have advanced DM, in the hopes that this treatment might help dogs with Degenerative Myelopathy. However, he has found that we cannot expect them to be the miracle that everyone thought and hoped they might be. With all that was being said about stem cells, it sounded like they would be able to recreate every organ. The answer is "No, they can’t." Stem cells can be made in the test tube to do certain things. They can be made to develop certain structures and in that sense, might be useful. However, there are a few problems. If you want to use histocompatible stem cells so that anti-rejection drugs are not also needed, they must come from the individual. Mesenchymal stem cells are able to do that. However, they are as old as the patient and therefore not as robust. They can be coaxed into becoming things, but only to a limited degree and they have limited life-span. Of course, making embryonic stem cells from the individual would be great, as mentioned in the news as of late, but that turned out to be a hoax. If you use embryonic stem cells, they are more robust, but that can lead to other problems not mentioned. So, we are probably going to try fetal stem cells to see if we can find the happy medium.
> Even so, while stem cells can be found to lay down and even become neurons in some cases, no one has shown that they become functional. What is known is that certain conditions improve. What we think is happening is that the stem cells provide factors which help reduce acute problems and kick start the nervous systems ability to heal which has been impeded by the formation of glial scarring. Unfortunately, it appears that this benefit, like we see with many things, is limited. While repeated stem cell injections provide minor additional effects, they begin to wear off. Whether fetal cells will be more beneficial or whether it is only the nerve growth factors that are needed remains to be seen. Dr. Clemmons is discouraged that they did not turn out to be the "cure", but we have learned a lot and that might, in the long run, turn out to be the most important thing. We need to complete our study and since Dr. Clemmons has been open about his research findings, it is getting harder to recruit people. They know that it might not be the answer, from what we already have found.







In conjunction with that - Oxford had a double blind study. I can't see the actual research and would encourage you to pay attention to how many of these dogs were actually GSD's - as GSDs may have an entirely different type of DM than other breeds... The study noted "some mobility improvement" in paralyzed dogs when using olfactory cells.. It seems to be in line with what Dr. Clemmons says - resulted in some improvement, but no cure... and we don't know how long that improvement lasts.


Reference




Again, my take is simply to state that DM does not have a cure... It's a progressive disease - meaning the degeneration will continue.


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## RebelGSD

I have provided all the details about my dog's treatment in this post along with videos, they are here for everybody to read, and believe or not. I don't have the interest or time to argue with people who have an essentially negative attitude and are trying to discredit the method without having personal experience or expertise, which you are repeatedly doing while claiming the opposite. 

As to Dr. Clemmons, I am aware of the group glorifying him: I tried his treatment with two dogs and it did not them. I would not be as arrogant as to discredit it and try to convince dog owners that it is not worth trying. His work was not rigorously peer reviewed either, as far as I know, and there is no double blind study of his method either. A web page of his fan, paraphrasing his words, can hardly count as scientific evidence. So whatever, you can feel free not to try it with your dog and other dog owners are free to chose whatever course they feel comfortable with, with their own dog. 

Stem cell treatment has come a long way since 2006 and there are different types of stem cells, ways of growing them, ways of administration, concentrations/numbers administered etc.

It is not true that Dr. Clemmons is the god and one and only of DM, as his followers try to make everybody believe.


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## dcg9381

Rebel, please review the totality of my posts. I certainly appreciate the details that you've shared - specifically about your treatment. I believe your outcome and I'm not attempting to discredit your case.

I'm sorry if you feel that my attitude is negative. My attitude is simply cautionary as not all outcomes are as positive as yours. That doesn't discredit your outcome or reflect on your personally. In fact, I'd love to see more feedback that indicates positive results from people that try the same steps that you did.

Regarding the DM advice of Clemmons (U of F) vs Coates (U of M), here's where I stand:
1) Clemmons didn't publish work that stands up to normal scientific bar, as far as I know. However, he did focus on GSDs. I think the advice he gives in terms of treatment is good - exercise, supplements (specific), and diet. At a minimum, it can't hurt. I haven't seen statistical results that show that his test for DM is any more valid than any other. 

2) Coates work - as originally published - as I reviewed it recently - included a total of 4 GSDs in the affected group. Diagnosis was confirmed by one of 4 different means, with the lowest bar being "DM-like symptoms, probably DM". That's not enough data for me and the diagnostic bar isn't high enough for me personally.

I'm hoping that Coates will publish additional data this year. Hopefully with a much larger number of DM dogs that were confirmed by the highest diagnostic bar - necropsy and spinal cross section. If she does that, it'll settle the issue for me...


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## RebelGSD

As far as I am aware, no medical treatment method (human or veterinary) provides guarantees that it will have equally positive outcome for everybody. I never made such claims in my post. It seems that nothing available in the field satisfies you and you are certainly free to try nothing if your dog were to develop DM. I doubt that anyone will be able or willing to give you the assurances of a positive outcome you demand, even if the field were better funded or researched. I am completely fine with the fact that whatever I post will not be enough to satisfy everybody's demands. 

My post was intended to provide information and an option for those dog owners who are looking for alternatives to just letting their dog die slowly.


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## dcg9381

Rebel, 
We're almost there.. Thanks for being willing to have a rational discussion.

You're making statements about what I believe and I've got a right to correct you: You're right that nothing in the field *TODAY* satisfies me as scientifically proven treatment or definitive genetic test (DM) for the GSD. I don't require an equally positive outcome for everyone, but I do require a positive on outcome for the majority of patients that receive a type of treatment. Isn't that what you require?

The only proven thing that I know about is exercise / physical therapy - and it's only proven to delay the outcome.

If you're saying that it's impossible to satisfy me in terms of genetic testing, that's not true. I simply need to see the blind results of genetic tests on GSDs, a reasonable sample size of the breed, and the results to be confirmed by spinal cross section / necropsy. * This is a minimum bar that should be used for any study.* It completely boggles my mind that we have "genetic tests" for GSDs, but this data is missing. Using the results from other breeds likely won't work for this disease and confirming DM by looking at symptoms isn't enough. If you think this bar is too high, please explain to me why we as consumers - or breeders - or dog lovers should accept "tests" or "treatments" as "working" without this basic level of investigation. Already, we're paying for these tests in some cases. The data to back them is not there.

I've got no problem with experimental treatments like stem cells. And if you've had positive results, I think that's great and would encourage people to look into the specifics of your treatment.. I do have an issue with anyone who says that stem cells are a "cure" (you didn't say that). And I question - don't challenge - but question because I'm curious about how long the positive results will last. Please keep us informed on if your dog continues to decline or if the positive results you've seen stick around.. I do hope they stick around.

And I'm interested not due to academics, I'm interested because we owned and cared for a DM dog for more than 3 years.. Had I seen more positive posts about stem cells (like yours), then they might have been something we would have tried.


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## RebelGSD

I am not going to post updates about my dog for you to dissect nor will is necropsy my dog to please the demands of an on-line stranger. If someone is interested in details about the treatment they can PM me. The vet who did the treatment for my dog no longer does it.


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## dcg9381

Rebel,
Again, forgive me if I've upset you. I've tried being rational and that isn't working. If not posting your results helps you feel like you're somehow punishing me, then that's fine... 

Note, I'm not asking you to necropsy your dog that is doing well. I would have done that with mine, after euthanasia, if I thought that it would benefit other owners or provide some research benefit into this horrible disease. I mention it as many other diseases can "act like" DM and if you don't "prove" results of a test, how can you be sure it's working?

Again, sorry if I've somehow hurt your feelings.


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## RebelGSD

If it makes you and your research feel better just feel free to assume that the method is not working  I am not interested in proving anything to you  feel free to move on and dissect someone else. 
I will be happy to communicate with others who are not negative people or "researchers" and who are interested our experience (and who are not turning us into their science experiment and theory) - privately. 
I am happy and sure that my dog who had difficulties walking could jump into the truck after this treatment. For me it was success, I don't care if it is not success enough for a "scientist"


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## jamesthompson1025

Rebel, I am very interested to talk with you. Please message me!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gsdpolarbear

RebelGSD - sent you a PM.


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## RebelGSD

Responded


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## shpd

RebelGSD, how is your dog now? My dog has been diagnosed with DM (after a DNA test) and I am looking for treatment for him. Please respond. Thanks!


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## benhurmx

RebelGSD said:


> Responded


Hi,

I was unable to PM you since i only have 3 posts. My dog was diagnosed with DM a month ago, and now she is unable to walk without falling. If you would please pm the contacts. Thank you very much.


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## RebelGSD

benhurmx said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was unable to PM you since i only have 3 posts. My dog was diagnosed with DM a month ago, and now she is unable to walk without falling. If you would please pm the contacts. Thank you very much.


Sent message


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## RebelGSD

shpd said:


> RebelGSD, how is your dog now? My dog has been diagnosed with DM (after a DNA test) and I am looking for treatment for him. Please respond. Thanks!


Responded


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## lobo-tomy

My dog is rapidly loosing his rear end can you please point me in the right direction to stem cell?


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## RebelGSD

I used ReGena VetLabs in California, Dr. Vuilliet.


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## SuperG

I'd like to know how your dog is doing as well.....lost my last girl to DM about the time you started this thread. Her DM was more advanced than your videos displayed. 


SuperG


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## arycrest

This is just an FYI ... my sweet Slider was diagnosed with Cauda Equina Syndrome (CES) and as time progressed he began to develop progressive rear end problems ... dragging his back legs. My vet x-rayed him and since his CES had not changed much, she diagnosed him with DM. When he passed away this past April, I wanted a necropsy done to determine if he had DM or not .. my vet didn't have the necessary tools to perform this type of necropsy, so I had a DM DNA test done (not the Dr. Clemons test, this one was done by DDC). Anyway, it turned out he was only a carrier ... only had one positive marker, the other marker was normal. So I assume all the rear end problems he had were due to the CES. (I lost 3 other dogs to CES all with the same symptoms but no testing was done). So there are diseases that mimic DM that really aren't, though it really doesn't make much difference since the results are the same, just the name is different.


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## lacey girl

*Not DM in my Lacey*

New person here so bare with me. I have 2 shepherd sisters 7yrs.old Lacy and sheeba in great active health. 2 days ago was throwing ball out front lacy ran full stride missed ball and turned tight, I heard a small yipe, she came back with ball looking fine, both dogs finished playing came in house. My wife and I sat down to watch a movie, both dogs laid down. about an hour later Lace struggled to get up, her rear legs were wobbly and dragging. I took her right away to vet hospital, Lacy walked in wobbly dragging toes. Vet did x-rays hips, legs. no deformities, they gave me 3 sets of drugs and told me to watch her in the next couple days, if gets worse bring her back, the drive home was 30 miles by the time we got home 2:00 am she lost all functions of rear legs had to carry her in. the next morning took her back, the nuero- surgeon was in and evaluated lacy, right away DM was brought up, but they were perplexed at the quick onset, My wife and I were a mess since everything we looked at on the web. I told the surgeon to get Lacy in NOW for MRI and workup, costly but my girls are worth it. Glad I did, turned out to be a bulging disc in her neck causing rear leg paralysis. Lacy is recouping as we speak at the hospital and is bearing weight on rear, therapy for next 3 weeks, she comes home next week with or visits morning and evening. Her sister Sheeba slept next to her cage all night at home and still looks for her. she misses sister. The neurosurgeon said no more up on bed, when they jump down is the worst, they hit with front legs and jolts their head forward than back fast. If your dog is active and something like this happens suddenly, please don't think DM first. And if your baby has DM give them all the love and support you can give them, remember when you come home no matter what kind of day you had they wag their tail and love you no matter what. Prayers to all your tailwaggers. Patrick


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## Pistol Pete

We had to put our 10 year old GSD down a couple years ago because of DM.

I had no idea about the stem cell treatments, our vet never even mentioned it.


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## Sabis mom

Pistol Pete said:


> We had to put our 10 year old GSD down a couple years ago because of DM.
> 
> I had no idea about the stem cell treatments, our vet never even mentioned it.


It is a newish treatment that they have seen limited success with. 
DM naturally plateaus throughout its progression and what seems to happen is that the treatment extends the duration of those plateaus in some dogs.
In a few they have seen what appears to be a recovery but then it returns with a vengeance.
It is also prohibitively expensive.
Much, much more research will be needed to call this a cure. 
My condolences on your loss. I lost Sabi to DM.


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## Sammy79

Would stem cell therapy work on German Shepherds with IVDD?


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## Jax08

Debbie at Wizard of Paws is releasing new information based off her work with laser therapy and exercise. It's been successful in giving dogs years of mobility.


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## Heartandsoul

@Jax08, where will she be announcing the information? I didnt find anything on her web site.


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## Jax08

Heartandsoul said:


> @Jax08, where will she be announcing the information? I didnt find anything on her web site.


I saw her post it on her facebook page. Looks like there is a link to the study and will be an interview with Debbie on the 27th.




__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Heartandsoul

Jax, Thanks for the link! Oops, looks like something went awry. No matter, I will contact her via her website. But thanks for your help. Edit to add: a message popped up saying it was no longer available.


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## ebliss

RebelGSD said:


> Gait before treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entering the car - before treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neuro exam before treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months later, two days after third treatment


WOW that is great! What an improvement? I’ve had a couple GSDs that suffered with this and now atleast there is some relief for the dogs! Thanks for posting this.


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## CarolynSD

RebelGSD said:


> Gait before treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entering the car - before treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neuro exam before treatment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months later, two days after third treatment


Can you tell me how long the improvement lasted, if it was successful after that three month period? We just did stem cells on our Lab/Ridge and are praying.


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## CarolynSD

RebelGSD said:


> What is even more amazing is that Riley showed significant improvement after two weeks (after the first) treatment. We expected noticeable improvement after 4 treatments and they showed after two treatments. The other GSD remained stable for 18 months after treatment. I think that this will work for injuries as well, the treatment is certainly not limitedbto DM.


I hope you are still looking at this community. We just had stem cell transplant on our Lab/Ridgback and his was extracted from the fat cells on his abdomen, not the marrow. His were also injected at the base of his brain in the sub-arachnoid area into the dura (I believe that is what she said). She was supposed to do an IV flush but I don't think that wound up being done since they chose to do the SA spot. Just wondering if you have any knowledge of the difference between bone marrow stem cells and stem cells from the fat?


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## Auggie

My 6 year old GS was diagnosed with Fribotic Myopathy in his rear right leg. Has ANYONE had experience with this diagnosis? Please help!


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## Quinnsmom

Auggie said:


> My 6 year old GS was diagnosed with Fribotic Myopathy in his rear right leg. Has ANYONE had experience with this diagnosis? Please help!



Suggesting you start a new thread in the Health Issues forum. This thread is very old and additions to it may not get noticed by members.


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## Loki’sMom

CarolynSD said:


> I hope you are still looking at this community. We just had stem cell transplant on our Lab/Ridgback and his was extracted from the fat cells on his abdomen, not the marrow. His were also injected at the base of his brain in the sub-arachnoid area into the dura (I believe that is what she said). She was supposed to do an IV flush but I don't think that wound up being done since they chose to do the SA spot. Just wondering if you have any knowledge of the difference between bone marrow stem cells and stem cells from the fat?


How is your dog doing? Did the treatment help? Considering for my gsd that was recently diagnosed.


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## Mickee_101

RebelGSD said:


> If anyone has a dog with DM an is interested in pursuing stem cell treatment, please PM me and I can provide contact information.


Hi Rebel,

My dog has been diagnosed as having DM. Could you please provide me with the stem cell therapy contact info?

Thank you!
Mije


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## Magwart

Mickee_101 said:


> My dog has been diagnosed as having DM. Could you please provide me with the stem cell therapy contact info?


RebelGSD hasn't posted on this forum in years. That's a user I really would be happy to see return!


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