# Perlich Ring a Bell for Anyone?



## Rionel

I have a 4 generation pedigree on my dog and cannot find much information on one of the dogs/breeders further back on the dam side. The dog is Perlich's Duke and I assume the breeder is Perlich. "Duke" appears twice if I trace that back thru the pedigree database online so I assume he had some good strengths. There are a couple other dogs from Perlich as well, so I tend to think there was a breeding program of some sort. 

I'm interested to know if anyone has any information on Perlich's dogs? I can't find pictures or other real information of any Perlich dogs online. Thanks for any info you may have.


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## berno von der seeweise

I don't know perlich, but I recognize a good number of names from 30 something yrs ago. I wouldn't call perlich a line, but there are some very fine old lines behind perlich peds.

If you hang around long enough you'll see the phrase "back yard breeders may hold the key to the future of the breed" bandied about on a regular basis. From what I'm able to piece together, perlich peds illustrate that theory. In other words, no popular sire's and none of the "working line" _usual suspects_.

I've been hunting HARD for 7 months, and those old lines appear to be all but gone, primarily due to introgression.

Can I see some more photos of your dog? Looks like a very interesting study.


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## Rionel

Yes, I will need to take a current picture of her at 22 months. On her dam's side she also has Yates of the Southland, and sire side has Big Bear Paw (sire) off of Benjamin Vom Westendorf. Those branches of the family are impressive looking and I know Benjamin has a brother that is popular. I'll try to get a pic posted by tonight. I regard my dog's pedigree as open, but with some really good herritage, which is why I wanted to see some of Perlich's dogs. Appreciate your response!

As for conformation of my dog, she sits 25" at the withers now, without being overly leggy, and just over 80 pounds.


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## Jax08

there are some pedigree's online.




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Perlich's Duke


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Perlich's Duke




www.pedigreedatabase.com













Perlich's Duke Pedigree


A complete pedigree and breeding report for the German Shepherd Perlich's Duke. Add your dog for free.




dogs.pedigreeonline.com





Those name are very much American names. There is a WG working line in the 5th gen.


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## berno von der seeweise

*yates vd southland*









*ben v westendorf*

the "working lines" (_"usual suspects"_) are a little more common than what I see behind perlich anymore


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## Rionel

Jax08 said:


> there are some pedigree's online.
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> Perlich's Duke
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> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Perlich's Duke
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> www.pedigreedatabase.com
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> Perlich's Duke Pedigree
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> A complete pedigree and breeding report for the German Shepherd Perlich's Duke. Add your dog for free.
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> dogs.pedigreeonline.com
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> Those name are very much American names. There is a WG working line in the 5th gen.


Awesome-thanks Jax08. That is what I have as well aside from my AKC pedigree. Wish I could see pics of that leg of the pedigree : )


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## Rionel

thanks!


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## Rionel

Jax08 said:


> there are some pedigree's online.
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> __
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> Perlich's Duke
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> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Perlich's Duke
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> www.pedigreedatabase.com
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> Perlich's Duke Pedigree
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> A complete pedigree and breeding report for the German Shepherd Perlich's Duke. Add your dog for free.
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> dogs.pedigreeonline.com
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> Those name are very much American names. There is a WG working line in the 5th gen.


Also, I inadvertently misstated Perlich's Duke as being in her pedigree more than once. It was actually Perlich's Socks (sire) who appears on both sides of Dukes lineage, mated to two different dams, which were also Perlich dogs. I guess the advent of iPhone and digital cameras made it more convenient at some point to enter dog's pictures. Thank goodness not everyone was lazy in getting pictures throughout the breed's history, when all we had was film lol.


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## Rionel

Good stuff


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## berno von der seeweise

I'd guess the main thing impeding your research are spelling errors in the database. Some stuff get's lost in translation, other times it's simply a typo. Akc will sell you a certified 5 gen ped (great grands). Do you have the names of your dog's parent's handy? Sire and dam?


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## Rionel

Yes, I have a 4 generation pedigree already from AKC, that came with my registration. Big Bear Paw is the sire (but not listed on online pedigree database as far as I can find) and Dam is Zoe Juliet or Zimmerman's Zoe Juliet (I'll have to get it out of a file cabinet to be sure). I don't know that either of those dogs are currently listed online, other than AKC, unless they are under different names, as you suggest. I appreciate your feedback! Whatever her background, I can honestly say she's the most impressive dog I've owned. Smart, moderate to high drives, but very manageable and sweet.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'd guess the main thing impeding your research are spelling errors in the database. Some stuff get's lost in translation, other times it's simply a typo. Akc will sell you a certified 5 gen ped (great grands). Do you have the names of your dog's parent's handy? Sire and dam?


I am curious about your concern of "introgression" as my understanding of that is to blend disparate sets of genetics, like a dog and a wolf. I may have a misunderstanding of that term, however. Are you concerned about mixtures of ASL/WGSL/WL or are you suggesting other breeds of dogs, or something altogether apart from the GSD gene pool? I don't have a dog in the fight (pardon the pun : ) but I, myself, tend to like the pictures of dogs between the 1930s and mid 1960s better than most GSD produced today. It's intersting that if you view GSDs from the 1920s, many have muzzles like the modern Doberman Pinscher, and that was well into the founder's influence of structure, if I'm not mistaken.


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## berno von der seeweise

my comment re; introgression related specifically to perlich duke. Those old "usa byb type" lines, and the genetic diversity they represented, appear to have been crossed and backcrossed out of existence now. That's what I've been hunting, and I'm just not finding them.



Rionel said:


> View attachment 560889



in any event, this is a textbook example of what a real gsd is supposed to look like, and the wall to wall working titles behind southland and westendorf speak for themselves 

don't ever let anybody tell you different


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> my comment re; introgression related specifically to perlich duke. Those old "usa byb type" lines, and the genetic diversity they represented, appear to have been crossed and backcrossed out of existence now. That's what I've been hunting, and I'm just not finding them.
> 
> 
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> 
> in any event, this is a textbook example of what a real gsd is supposed to look like, and the wall to wall working titles behind southland and westendorf speak for themselves
> 
> don't ever let anybody tell you different


Thanks so much! This is my first GSD, but I have had pedigreed Rough Collies and Sheltis over the last 16 years. All had/have issues and were expensive dogs at the time. So, I am learning to "learn" all I can so I hopefully get healthier dogs going forward.

You probably would have liked Nikita, who is my dog's grandmother and a daughter of Duke. She's 10 years now, and was on the yard when I bought Rey. They had retired her from breeding by 2018.


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## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> It's intersting that if you view GSDs from the 1920s, many have muzzles like the modern Doberman Pinscher, and that was well into the founder's influence of structure, if I'm not mistaken.











_SZ 2 (SHSB 1672)_

I see hints of dobe from before dobe even existed. Before the pincher/schnauzer split. I don't doubt dobe DNA has influenced gsd many times, but I'm confident gsd played a starring role in dobe foundation stock to begin with.









have a look at SZ 4's *pedigree*

the founders inbred like MAD and traded offspring back and forth amongst themselves









SZ 114

v stephanitz book illustrates a wide variety of "gsd" types, as well as other breeds, not to mention wolf crosses; yet dobe and airedale are conspicuously absent... IMO this may call the author's... "_accuracy_" into question...
there's actually a photo of an airedale on pg 127 he identifies as "rough haired german shepherd of wurttemburg." At the very height of the airedale boom...


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## Chip Blasiole

BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed. Geneticist Malcolm Willis has research that supported heritability of schutzhund scores was meaningless. So many people talk about having dogs health tested and IGP titles. How much of HD is heritable? The ability to improve the breed lies in very knowledgeable trainers who also breed and know what results are due to genetics vs. training. Also, the prevalence of breeding GSD’s as pets is detrimental. All you have to do is read the posts on this forum and see the volume of poorly bred dogs and unskilled handlers. If you dilute the formula to accommodate pet owners and politically correct dogs you see a decline in the breed. That does not mean all GSD’s should be dominant, hard ass dogs that require “professional” handlers, but it comes close. It has become a snowflake issue.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed.


The point is that in a good many lines valuable traits have been completely lost by selectively breeding for others. In some instances the dogs in the hands of lesser breeders or BYB's possess those traits that have been all but lost. A good many knowledgeable people have theorized that it may come to pass that the "lost" genetics are alive and thriving in dogs we may not expect. I can tell you, for example, that a startling number of my rescues possessed very strong herding ability. The lines have also been less "honed" toward the sharpness so desirable in sport. Remember the breed is supposed to be a jack of all trades, not a master of one. Safe around children was the original vision, as was safe around other animals(farm dog). Able to move between herder, hunter and guardian with ease.
Also consider the gross genetic bottlenecks that have been created. Linebreeding was never meant to be used for untold generations. It was meant to solidify traits.


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## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed.


as much as I want to disagree, I am not able to at this time. I've looked high and low and I'm just not finding the usa byb gsd type that was so common, prior to german reunification. A few very old, very well known "holdout" breeders remain, solely focused on the companion market ("old style" neither bred for show nor work) but to my eye even their lines have diverged beyond recognition now...










bear in mind that until nearly the turn of the last century, MWD's were BYB's









Chip Blasiole said:


> Geneticist Malcolm Willis has research that supported heritability of schutzhund scores was meaningless.


There's a best in every litter, and proper rearing/conditioning early on is critical. Linebreed on best and you'll get better. I very much appreciate the modern "working type," but if I'm being perfectly brutally honest, I fear it may be overrated in the minds of some enthusiasts, and I *know* it underperforms vs another breed or 2 nowdays...

no offense intended


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> Linebreeding was never meant to be used for untold generations. It was meant to solidify traits.


 I assert a handful of individual kennels selecting and linebreeding a few generations in house may create genetic diversity, but I'm beginning to suspect they may have to begin by outcrossing without kennel club oversight in order to restore some real agility 

gsd "movement" may have started out a good theory, but $omewhere along the way thing$ went horribly wrong...


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## Chip Blasiole

There is no need for herding these days. Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock. That is my point. People often can’t recognize true working ability and IGP in particular adds to the problem by selecting for sport traits rather than working traits.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is no need for herding these days. Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock. That is my point. People often can’t recognize true working ability and IGP in particular adds to the problem by selecting for sport traits rather than working traits.


There is no need for ratters anymore but terriers abound, ratting instinct intact.
Maybe some folks don't recognize work ability but having spent a fair bit of time with real stock dogs I consider myself able. The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be an all around dog and it is that herding instinct that makes them so well rounded. The loss of it will irreversibly alter the breed.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> BYB’ers are not the savior of the breed. Geneticist Malcolm Willis has research that supported heritability of schutzhund scores was meaningless. So many people talk about having dogs health tested and IGP titles. How much of HD is heritable? The ability to improve the breed lies in very knowledgeable trainers who also breed and know what results are due to genetics vs. training. Also, the prevalence of breeding GSD’s as pets is detrimental. All you have to do is read the posts on this forum and see the volume of poorly bred dogs and unskilled handlers. If you dilute the formula to accommodate pet owners and politically correct dogs you see a decline in the breed. That does not mean all GSD’s should be dominant, hard ass dogs that require “professional” handlers, but it comes close. It has become a snowflake issue.


Wow, I have owned working dogs for over 30 years, and have seen what "reputable breeders" have done with breeds like APBT, for instance. (Moderators I am not promoting a breed) Those formerly "sound" dogs are basically extinct for a number of temperament factors, due to professional breeders and handlers, and in the 1980s I owned 4. Currently, I have two expensive Rough Collies with significant health issues, each purchased at high prices from professional breeders. And let's not forget GSD lines that walk on their hocks due to over angulation and roach backs. How about the diminutive sized dogs that roll out after enough line-breeding? And you know what? All those aspects were the brilliant results of - yep, you guessed it - professional breeders and trainers. I think maybe by using the term BYB you are referring to indiscriminate breeders, who have no desire to uphold and further the GSD breed. That (unfortunately) also occurs in many professional breeding programs. To me, an ethical breeder is the one that supports the breed standards, and strives for as many characteristics as possible based on the original goals of the breed. That happens to also include dogs that are good pets as GSD. There are plenty of dogs (SL/WL) that are so overly compartmentalized genetically, they will likely add to the deterioration of the breed without out-crossing. Now, I criticized "roach backed" GSD. I personally think they look kinda neat, as well as the ASL slope backs. But truthfully, I would not opt to buy one because I prefer a square framed dog - as do many working line owners, regardless of breed. That's just me, but if I adopted a SL dog of either flavor I would care for it like every other dog I own. I really never met a dog I didn't like. I just would not breed that one.

This discussion is about my dog's pedigree and one of her ancestors origination. That's it. Berno and Sabis mom have offered thoughtful comments about genetic pool diversity and the merits of that. And I agree with that based on three decades of purebred dogs and the realization that phrases like "full blooded" and "professional breeder" "line-bred" do not always equate to stellar dogs. If there is one unfortunate thing about this forum, it is that investigative conversations seem to get attacked by someone ascribing all GSD faults to backyard breeders. Are there people breeding poor dogs out there? Yes and It is not helpful to the breed. Are they always BYBs -nope.


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## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> There is no need for ratters anymore but terriers abound, ratting instinct intact.
> Maybe some folks don't recognize work ability but having spent a fair bit of time with real stock dogs I consider myself able. The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be an all around dog and it is that herding instinct that makes them so well rounded. The loss of it will irreversibly alter the breed.


Come to think of it, there are a lot of joggers, but we've had cars for quite a while now ; )


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is no need for herding these days. Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock. That is my point. People often can’t recognize true working ability and IGP in particular adds to the problem by selecting for sport traits rather than working traits.


What exactly are you saying friend? If I look at all your comments, you seem to think heritability of Schutzhund scores is meaningless, health test are meaningless, herding is meaningless, but temperament that causes a dog to be a good pet is "detrimental"? Here's an article on prepotency and filial degeneration that may help. Genes are a matter of probability. If they were not, "professional breeders" would never had linebred or inbred at all. 

PREPOTENCY AND FILIAL DEGENERATION 

Obviously titles are earned on ability and not every pup in a litter gets every trait of every ancestor, but that's why littler sibling/progeny studies help to see consistency of a breeding. I didn't buy my dog based on the number of titles in her lineage. But they are there, and her intelligence, instincts and drives are quite nice.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> _SZ 2 (SHSB 1672)_
> 
> I see hints of dobe from before dobe even existed. Before the pincher/schnauzer split. I don't doubt dobe DNA has influenced gsd many times, but I'm confident gsd played a starring role in dobe foundation stock to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> have a look at SZ 4's *pedigree*
> 
> the founders inbred like MAD and traded offspring back and forth amongst themselves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SZ 114
> 
> v stephanitz book illustrates a wide variety of "gsd" types, as well as other breeds, not to mention wolf crosses; yet dobe and airedale are conspicuously absent... IMO this may call the author's... "_accuracy_" into question...
> there's actually a photo of an airedale on pg 127 he identifies as "rough haired german shepherd of wurttemburg." At the very height of the airedale boom...


I'd say that's his story and he's sticking to it lol. Very interesting stuff for sure.


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## Chip Blasiole

True herding stock is gone due to the SV pressuring low income people who depended on their dogs for their herding abilities to breed their herding stock to the high lines in order to get more money for pups and to promote the SV’s agenda. Even though heritability is low based on schutzhund scores, it became the SV’s gold standard and was progressively watered down to accommodate the high line dogs and the financial factor. IGP has become a joke in terms of assessing a dog’s genetics. Line breeding currently has little genetic impact vs. the traits of a breeding pair. Titled dogs are more likely to reflect a dog inconsistent with the breed’s working heritage. The SV claims HD is only 25% genetic. What do you chose to believe? Training is more of a factor than genetics in terms of IGP titles especially if you look at the level the titles were obtained.


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## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> This discussion is about my dog's pedigree and one of her ancestors origination. That's it.


re-reading pg 1, I'm the one who derailed this thread. I always do. Sorry 

I don't know Chip, I don't always agree with Chip, and he never agrees with me. Nevertheless I respect Chip because his handler/trainer credentials are self evident, and years ago he mentored a couple _other breed_ guys who later went on to mentor me in _other breeds_. I'm not trying to be cryptic, I just don't want to muddy up the gsd forums with non-gsd stuff.
Chip is not a big talker. He doesn't say much. My goal is to coax as much info out of him as I'm able. Most of it goes over my head, but I do my best. Anyway, my point, with Chip it's never personal. It's not about thumbs ups or follows or friends. It's strictly about the dogs and the work, or the lack thereof. So I don't bother trying to explain or justify or defend, because Chip ain't got time for that, and even if he did, he just doesn't care 

I glean whatever I can, and let the rest melt like _snowflakes_ off a duck's back; but speaking of collie (_see there? I'm doing it again!_)...









_ when I look real close, I'm pretty sure this is a photoshop..._

you are apparently familiar with rough collie so I'm curious as to your thoughts about any genetic relationship possibly shared between tervuren/groenendael and collie










interesting gsd x collie photos


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> re-reading pg 1, I'm the one who derailed this thread. I always do. Sorry
> 
> I don't know Chip, I don't always agree with Chip, and he never agrees with me. Nevertheless I respect Chip because his handler/trainer credentials are self evident, and years ago he mentored a couple _other breed_ guys who later went on to mentor me in _other breeds_. I'm not trying to be cryptic, I just don't want to muddy up the gsd forums with non-gsd stuff.
> Chip is not a big talker. He doesn't say much. My goal is to coax as much info out of him as I'm able. Most of it goes over my head, but I do my best. Anyway, my point, with Chip it's never personal. It's not about thumbs ups or follows or friends. It's strictly about the dogs and the work, or the lack thereof. So I don't bother trying to explain or justify or defend, because Chip ain't got time for that, and even if he did, he just doesn't care
> 
> I glean whatever I can, and let the rest melt like _snowflakes_ off a duck's back; but speaking of collie (_see there? I'm doing it again!_)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ when I look real close, I'm pretty sure this is a photoshop..._
> 
> you are apparently familiar with rough collie so I'm curious as to your thoughts about any genetic relationship possibly shared between tervuren/groenendael and collie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting gsd x collie photos


Could be -I really can't say, as the history I've found references various generalized, nondescript dogs as the founding stock. As I understand, like with Malinois/Tervuren/Belgian Shepherd stocks, there were variations in the founding Scottish dogs and then later refinements (including Borzoi) to distinguish them. As far as the old Scottish Collie being mixed with the Belgian dogs, it eludes my eye when looking at current dogs-which means absolutely nothing. A better trained eye/more informed fancier may see it. If I had to do it all over again, I would have put much more vetting into the Collies hystory before buying. I was just busy (career) and naive enough back then that I assumed price and pedigree was always synonymous with health.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> re-reading pg 1, I'm the one who derailed this thread. I always do. Sorry
> 
> I don't know Chip, I don't always agree with Chip, and he never agrees with me. Nevertheless I respect Chip because his handler/trainer credentials are self evident, and years ago he mentored a couple _other breed_ guys who later went on to mentor me in _other breeds_. I'm not trying to be cryptic, I just don't want to muddy up the gsd forums with non-gsd stuff.
> Chip is not a big talker. He doesn't say much. My goal is to coax as much info out of him as I'm able. Most of it goes over my head, but I do my best. Anyway, my point, with Chip it's never personal. It's not about thumbs ups or follows or friends. It's strictly about the dogs and the work, or the lack thereof. So I don't bother trying to explain or justify or defend, because Chip ain't got time for that, and even if he did, he just doesn't care
> 
> I glean whatever I can, and let the rest melt like _snowflakes_ off a duck's back; but speaking of collie (_see there? I'm doing it again!_)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ when I look real close, I'm pretty sure this is a photoshop..._
> 
> you are apparently familiar with rough collie so I'm curious as to your thoughts about any genetic relationship possibly shared between tervuren/groenendael and collie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interesting gsd x collie photos


Yeah, the Shollies are sometimes pretty, but other times not lol. My wife keeps nudging me to let that happen and I tell her she's lost her mind. Talk about opening a can of worms : [ Honestly, as far as all this genetic depletion is concerned, I believe there are plenty of opportunities to better the breed within its own remaining lines. Or, someone could infuse something else and breed back to GSD until it is again considered purebred GSD. I'm sure the breeding police will converge on me at this point lol.

The Volkosoby is off limits but if it ever got exported, it already has primarily GSD. Tough fellas.





Then there's the Russian Wolfhound, that someone could look at:





Come to think of it it looks an awful lot like Benjamin V. Westendorf. Things that make ya go huuuuuuuum.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> True herding stock is gone due to the SV pressuring low income people who depended on their dogs for their herding abilities to breed their herding stock to the high lines in order to get more money for pups and to promote the SV’s agenda. Even though heritability is low based on schutzhund scores, it became the SV’s gold standard and was progressively watered down to accommodate the high line dogs and the financial factor. IGP has become a joke in terms of assessing a dog’s genetics. Line breeding currently has little genetic impact vs. the traits of a breeding pair. Titled dogs are more likely to reflect a dog inconsistent with the breed’s working heritage. The SV claims HD is only 25% genetic. What do you chose to believe? Training is more of a factor than genetics in terms of IGP titles especially if you look at the level the titles were obtained.


Whatever the disposition of the breed's gene pool, I do appreciate that people are looking at it. Incidentally, as you probably know, the GSD genome has been mapped (Australia) and apparently has 2.8 billion base pairs remaining today. I'd say that's good news. First complete German shepherd DNA offers new tool to fight disease


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## Lukas77

How many different dogs were used to create the GSD before they closed the studbook? And isn´t all GSD going back to similar dogs anyway regardless which country or breeder the come from, so what can you really do except avoiding letting certian dogs get to infleuntal in the breedings if genetic diversity is a problem in the breed?

Chip, I suppose the majority of breeders don´t think best points is a sign of the best breeding dog, on the other hand if perfect IGP scores is something certain breeders think is important I guess they are intressted in those dogs that have the genetic ability to score very high in all phases of the sport.


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## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> Yeah, the Shollies are sometimes pretty, but other times not lol. My wife keeps nudging me to let that happen and I tell her she's lost her mind. Talk about opening a can of worms


I intend to cross a gsd sire x collie and/or collie types (bc/acd/et al)



Rionel said:


> Honestly, as far as all this genetic depletion is concerned, I believe there are plenty of opportunities to better the breed within its own remaining lines.


I hope you're right



Rionel said:


> Or, someone could infuse something else and breed back to GSD until it is again considered purebred GSD.


I'm sure I'll do some backcrossing, but I'm really not sure just how much...

if you're into the wolf mythology, I suggest a serious look at the origins of the czech wolfdog. I assume you're fully aware just how much czech gsd ("z") your dog has in his ped. *EDIT:* quick second look shows less than I thought; but in looks, to me, he definitely takes after the "Z ps" in his ped. 



Lukas77 said:


> so what can you really do except avoiding letting certian dogs get to infleuntal in the breedings if genetic diversity is a problem in the breed?


doing so only shrinks the genepool further now

the modern bottlenecks are easy to find. Pick a pedigree, any pedigree, EVERY pedigree, and you'll find yourself staring at the same sire within 7 clicks (in most cases much sooner)


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## Rionel

Yeah, I don't know what to think of the Czech Wolfdog. To me it structurally looks a lot like these Blue Bay Shepherds. Very leggy and long muzzled. That's a very interesting read you sent. And yes on the Czech background for Rey. Maybe that's where she got her Irish temperament : )


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## Sabis mom

@Rionel your dog is lovely. I am no expert but I like her expression and she appears well put together. What is she like?


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## Rionel

Thank you for that - I get the impression you have been with this breed a while, so I appreciate your input. She (Rey) is probably my most favorite dog ever. She is pretty much all the positive lore you can read about the breed. Sensitive and gentle to play with (most of the time), follows me like my shadow, refuses to retrieve (she only brings the ball back to me then turns to evade me so I'll chase her ). On the flip side she is an incredible guard dog for our home, and exhibits discerning defense drive. We went thru obedience training with a K9 officer locally and he seemed to think she was pretty smart (he thought I needed more work lol). Started her on rudimentary scent work and she seems to be on it. So for my first GSD purchase, I got kind of lucky I guess, or maybe they're all just this fun? I hope to have her hips/elbows checked after August, when she's over 24 mos. How many do you own and do your experiences sound like mine?


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## Sabis mom

Rionel said:


> Thank you for that - I get the impression you have been with this breed a while, so I appreciate your input. She (Rey) is probably my most favorite dog ever. She is pretty much all the positive lore you can read about the breed. Sensitive and gentle to play with (most of the time), follows me like my shadow, refuses to retrieve (she only brings the ball back to me then turns to evade me so I'll chase her ). On the flip side she is an incredible guard dog for our home, and exhibits discerning defense drive. We went thru obedience training with a K9 officer locally and he seemed to think she was pretty smart (he thought I needed more work lol). Started her on rudimentary scent work and she seems to be on it. So for my first GSD purchase, I got kind of lucky I guess, or maybe they're all just this fun? I hope to have her hips/elbows checked after August, when she's over 24 mos. How many do you own and do your experiences sound like mine?


I spent a decade or more running a GSD rescue. I have very little experience with well bred shepherds, most of it being with one line selected by my former employer for their work ability. 
My most amazing Sabi was in fact a BYB dog and was everything a good German Shepherd should be, except healthy.
She could do it all. She served as my patrol partner for many years, trained for personal protection, building searches, narcotics detection and crowd control. She swung effortlessly between jobs and was a full time pet as well. Easily the most discerning dog I have ever met with amazing protective instincts and not a mean bone in her body. She saved my life at least twice. She was intelligent beyond measure, adored children and baby animals and was always up for a good time. She was also clearly convinced I was an idiot and in need of much help.
She was over sized, and thick boned. She also had awful hips, was sterile before I got her spayed and I ultimately lost her to DM. 
I currently have my little genetic nightmare, Shadow who is getting older. I will be purchasing a pup in the future and I know exactly what I am looking for.


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> the modern bottlenecks are easy to find. Pick a pedigree, any pedigree, EVERY pedigree, and you'll find yourself staring at the same sire within 7 clicks (in most cases much sooner)








Bill Bethme


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Bill Bethme




www.pedigreedatabase.com





so what do you think of this one?


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> everything a good German Shepherd should be, except healthy.


 That's my singular criticism, concern, whatever. I stepped away 30+ yrs ago due to breed health and began dabbling in other breeds. I learned that neither genetic health issues nor genetic obedience are limited to gsd.

Overall gsd type has changed quite a bit in that time. Where did the old fashioned usa byb gsd go? Where did the old fashioned usa white gsd go? Where did the pure ddr lines go? I can't help wonder if perhaps they weren't "played out" along the way? Common sense suggests die hard ddr devotees didn't cross their beloved bloodlines without very good reason.



Sabis mom said:


> so what do you think of *[bill bethme]*?


 At a glance? DOB 1991, 6/8 czech. Paternal grandsire descends from _SZ 640721 ('47)._ Maternal grandsire descends from _SZ 739163 ('49)_. Still the "usual suspects" but a refreshingly diverse ped. Nice one! If only it was 1991 again, right? *Cheers, Sabis Mom!!*
Paternal grand dam dead ends appx 1970. Maternal grand dam dead ends appx 1966. Smells a little wolfy in here all of a sudden, maybe?  In _my mind_ the czech lines are a little elusive. They documented _significant_ outcrosses (1950's - 1970's), but they used ddr foundations, and now those lines come full circle back to ddr and/or admixtures thereof. That's not a criticism, only an observation (_clock is ticking_).

As for me and the collie thing, I don't know? I have one eye on a late summer/early fall tervuren litter, but there's a bunch of malinois in the ped, and it seems to me there's enough gsdxbsdxdsdxgsd going on already. Something like this is somewhat tempting. I'm not at all opposed to "jumpstarting" with a backcross (6/8 out of the gate.) Or perhaps something like this, but the sire MUST be gsd _(so that one is a no go_). 

I kind of feel like I should do something a little less... conventional? There are lots of amish/menonite/hutterite proven working herding crosses and herd/guard crosses around. I'd intended to pick one up earlier this year, but then a little gsd pup showed up... and here I am...


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## Sabis mom

That is my Buds sire line from his grandsire back. 
I really liked the end product.


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## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is no need for herding these days.


I'll agree there is currently very little need for herding... but when you look at the arc of postindustrial civilization... you know, "road warrior world" and all that... just kidding. I hope.



Chip Blasiole said:


> Plus, the true herding stock had genetic obedience and any modern day BYB GSD’s that can “herd” are a far cry from the original herding stock.


Genetic obedience may be found in other breeds, and we can't really talk herding without qualifying "continental herding style" vs "herding trials." Apples and oranges.



Chip Blasiole said:


> True herding stock is gone


the key to true gsd (aka "continential" aka "living fence") herding style is imprinting from 3-16 weeks. I assert that because my "random sample" gsd pup can herd correctly, nearly _any_ _young enough_ gsd pup may be imprinted and trained to herd correctly. It's not rocket science. Correct gsd herding style is about as exciting as watching paint dry. The dog just hangs out. Keep the stock out of the road, keep an eye out for predators, and don't act like a border collie. 



Chip Blasiole said:


> Training is more of a factor than genetics in terms of IGP titles especially if you look at the level the titles were obtained.


Agreed, but that's a dual edged sword. For example, would it matter to you if DNA analyses revealed your dog's maternal great grand dam was a gsd/black lab mix? 1/16 black lab? It certainly wouldn't matter to me, and I absolutely guarantee it wouldn't make a bit of difference to a bad guy on the wrong end of your leash 

I love you, man. Just sayin.

lately I find myself wondering _just_ _how many generations_ has it been since one of my pup's ancestors was raised outside of a climate controlled environment? It'll be interesting to see what sort of undercoat he develops over the next 6 months


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## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> I spent a decade or more running a GSD rescue. I have very little experience with well bred shepherds, most of it being with one line selected by my former employer for their work ability.
> My most amazing Sabi was in fact a BYB dog and was everything a good German Shepherd should be, except healthy.
> She could do it all. She served as my patrol partner for many years, trained for personal protection, building searches, narcotics detection and crowd control. She swung effortlessly between jobs and was a full time pet as well. Easily the most discerning dog I have ever met with amazing protective instincts and not a mean bone in her body. She saved my life at least twice. She was intelligent beyond measure, adored children and baby animals and was always up for a good time. She was also clearly convinced I was an idiot and in need of much help.
> She was over sized, and thick boned. She also had awful hips, was sterile before I got her spayed and I ultimately lost her to DM.
> I currently have my little genetic nightmare, Shadow who is getting older. I will be purchasing a pup in the future and I know exactly what I am looking for.


Sorry to hear about the DM, she sounds awesome. On the up side, she was obviously a diverse dog! I have an aging female Collie that has an arthitic condition in both back knees. Once she's up she runs across the yard, still loves walks, but there may be a day soon where she goes south. Just 12 years old but has dealt with this the last two years. Cosamine/asprin have had little influence. You'll have to let us know how you come out with the next pup.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> At a glance? DOB 1991, 6/8 czech. Paternal grandsire descends from _SZ 640721 ('47)._ Maternal grandsire descends from _SZ 739163 ('49)_. Still the "usual suspects" but a refreshingly diverse ped. Nice one! If only it was 1991 again, right? *Cheers, Sabis Mom!!*


Or 1950 : ))


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## Sunsilver

I got a GSD who'd been bred by a BYB. I never met the guy, but he loved animals, and judging by how this dog turned out, he may have know what he was doing.

Smartest **** dog I've ever had. I trained him to be my hearing ear dog. All I had to do was show him something 3x, and he had it down cold. He even learned stuff I didn't know I'd taught him, like the time I did two repetitions with the kitchen timer, then decided I didn't use it often enough to make teaching him that worthwhile. The next time that timer went off, he was there at my elbow, nudging me.

Worst conformation fault was his flat feet. No exaggerations in his conformation, and he had the most gorgeous male head. Perfectly sound temperament. He'd bark aggressively at strangers who came to the door, but let someone into the house, and he'd be wanting them to play ball with him within a couple of minutes. 

He lived to be 14, and the only health problem he had was he developed arthritis in his spine, first noticeable about age 11. He had to be PTS at 14, as he had days when he couldn't walk, or get up off the floor.

Here's the surprising part. Given his temperament, etc. I always assumed he was mostly German working lines. Then I showed Cliff some pictures of him, and he said he looked like pre-Lance American lines.

I know some breeders who'd give their eyeteeth to get a dog with genetics like that! 
But of course, he didn't have any papers...

So I get what you're saying about BYB. Not all of them are the spawn of Satan. Some of them even health test, and their most important criteria is often a dog with a stable temperament so it will fit into a pet home.


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## Chip Blasiole

When you say fit into a pet home I assume you mean aBYB dog.


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## berno von der seeweise

Sunsilver said:


> I showed Cliff some pictures of him, and he said he looked like pre-Lance American lines.











_AKC W862973 04-63_


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## Sabis mom

Any German Shepherd unsuitable to live as a pet is out of standard, just like any German Shepherd incapable of work is out of standard.


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## MineAreWorkingline

German Shepherds make great pets for the "right" families, not all families. There is no such thing as any one single dog breed that can be a good pet in all homes.


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## berno von der seeweise

_AKC A333969_

_







_
_AKC A451841_

It's worth noting how few_ pre-lance _akc gsd lacked SZ #'s, as well as how few generations back to those that did. In other words most were only 1 or 2 generations removed from import. Meanwhile on _that side_ of the pond...









_SZ 764298_

_







_
_SZ 757701_


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## WIBackpacker

berno von der seeweise said:


> the key to true gsd (aka "continential" aka "living fence") herding style is imprinting from 3-16 weeks. I assert that because my "random sample" gsd pup can herd correctly, nearly _any_ _young enough_ gsd pup may be imprinted and trained to herd correctly. It's not rocket science. Correct gsd herding style is about as exciting as watching paint dry. The dog just hangs out. Keep the stock out of the road, keep an eye out for predators, and don't act like a border collie.


There is so much misinformation in that quote above. Have you ever actually worked herding dogs?

Asking because I spent yesterday doing boundary work (tending) with one of my dogs and foundation with another. And today I went to a different farm and did driving arena work with one, and worked my younger male on basic gathers. Literally spent the whole weekend working my dogs alongside other GSD, terv, and groendenael herding judges and handlers. Your quote above is just.... wrong.


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## berno von der seeweise

it's a little different when you live on the farm, and the dog lives with the stock. Ain't no days off on the farm. Chores everyday and christmas too.

hence the fact that SV originally _automatically _awarded HGH to any dog employed as such

no briard or bouvier participation @ the workshop?

for the record I certainly don't diminish anybody doing any activity with their dog. On the contrary I applaud it. Bravo! Cheers to all who participated!!


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## WIBackpacker

I have livestock of my own, I’m aware.


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## berno von der seeweise

no offense intended, really. Was Deb Bender involved? sheep and wool fest related?


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## WIBackpacker

No offense taken or otherwise implied.

This wasn’t a special event, this was just regular training.


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## Rionel

I guess in the interest of getting back to pedigree traits, I have read that a working dog Horand was not trained in military/police work. It is rather astounding that a herding breed founded on Horand is so heavily utilized in that kind of work, provided this is an accurate quote from Von Stephanitz, when referring to Horand:

...a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in his puppyhood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at his master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and an incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go, well-disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad on children and always in love. What could not have become of such a dog, if we only had at that time military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, and never of his stock. He suffered from a suppressed, or better, a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in heaven when someone was occupied with him, and then he was the most tractable of dogs.

Seems like if genetics are there, training is easier. There's nothing like trying to take a teacup Poodle and training it to do SAR or bite work, which is apparently all that is required.


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## berno von der seeweise

WIBackpacker said:


> just regular training.


 I wondered maybe you had a group practicing for a demo


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## Rionel

Sunsilver said:


> I got a GSD who'd been bred by a BYB. I never met the guy, but he loved animals, and judging by how this dog turned out, he may have know what he was doing.
> 
> Smartest **** dog I've ever had. I trained him to be my hearing ear dog. All I had to do was show him something 3x, and he had it down cold. He even learned stuff I didn't know I'd taught him, like the time I did two repetitions with the kitchen timer, then decided I didn't use it often enough to make teaching him that worthwhile. The next time that timer went off, he was there at my elbow, nudging me.
> 
> Worst conformation fault was his flat feet. No exaggerations in his conformation, and he had the most gorgeous male head. Perfectly sound temperament. He'd bark aggressively at strangers who came to the door, but let someone into the house, and he'd be wanting them to play ball with him within a couple of minutes.
> 
> He lived to be 14, and the only health problem he had was he developed arthritis in his spine, first noticeable about age 11. He had to be PTS at 14, as he had days when he couldn't walk, or get up off the floor.
> 
> Here's the surprising part. Given his temperament, etc. I always assumed he was mostly German working lines. Then I showed Cliff some pictures of him, and he said he looked like pre-Lance American lines.
> 
> I know some breeders who'd give their eyeteeth to get a dog with genetics like that!
> But of course, he didn't have any papers...
> 
> So I get what you're saying about BYB. Not all of them are the spawn of Satan. Some of them even health test, and their most important criteria is often a dog with a stable temperament so it will fit into a pet home.


Stable temperament should actually be a baseline measurement of all breeders, IMHO. In other dog breed histories, dogs that failed that were culled, because the worst thing that can happen is to have a powerful animal utilized in defense work become a man biter (handler). Some will disagree, but the same traits that make dogs under pressure tractable also makes them safe for homes. Call it nerves, temperament, whatever. Anyone that believes producing dogs devoid of that have settled on what they are able to get out of their line, claiming a different degree of hardness.

Sounds like you had a really good dog!


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## Rionel

MineAreWorkingline said:


> German Shepherds make great pets for the "right" families, not all families. There is no such thing as any one single dog breed that can be a good pet in all homes.


Couldn't agree more.


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## Sabis mom

Rionel said:


> a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in his puppyhood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at his master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and an incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go, well-disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad on children and always in love. What could not have become of such a dog, if we only had at that time military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, and never of his stock. He suffered from a suppressed, or better, a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in heaven when someone was occupied with him, and then he was the most tractable of dogs.


This is what I mean. Well disposed to harmless people. Mad on children. 
Of course no dog is a good fit for everyone, but you should not need to be a dog handler to have a GSD as a pet! This fable about they are supposed to be aggressive is ridiculous. All animals including humans carry some aggression, it a survival thing. But when breeders start telling people my dogs aren't pets we have a problem.

As far as herding, it is those genetics that we are so dismissive of that make the breed what they are. The living fence myth is but a tiny part of what these dogs did, it brings in those guarding instincts. They also needed to be able to work with a shepherd to seperate stock, it's where the need to be a partner and pick up subtle cues and pay attention comes from. They needed to be able to move herds, hence the pushy nature.
Seriously, a herder with over the top prey drive would be useless. A herder with poor impulse control is useless and since birth control is a new invention and children were free labor a herder that was untrustworthy with kids probably would have not done well.


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## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> This is what I mean. Well disposed to harmless people. Mad on children.
> Of course no dog is a good fit for everyone, but you should not need to be a dog handler to have a GSD as a pet! This fable about they are supposed to be aggressive is ridiculous. All animals including humans carry some aggression, it a survival thing. But when breeders start telling people my dogs aren't pets we have a problem.
> 
> As far as herding, it is those genetics that we are so dismissive of that make the breed what they are. The living fence myth is but a tiny part of what these dogs did, it brings in those guarding instincts. They also needed to be able to work with a shepherd to seperate stock, it's where the need to be a partner and pick up subtle cues and pay attention comes from. They needed to be able to move herds, hence the pushy nature.
> Seriously, a herder with over the top prey drive would be useless. A herder with poor impulse control is useless and since birth control is a new invention and children were free labor a herder that was untrustworthy with kids probably would have not done well.


Great points! Honestly I think a little trolling has gone on in this thread- and right after that nice moderator posted that bit about giving advice. = [ I have a lot of respect for the breed and more broadly for working dogs in general. When trainers start making veiled slurs I just take note of the name and make sure I don’t purchase from their kennel or one they associate with. I actually just passed on a dog from a reputable guy in N.C. because the pedigree showed, while having a decent line breeding coefficient, the dogs from the last few gens were just less than desirable in structure. Great lines but too far off for me. Maybe that became popular because of breeders having to supply MWD and losing sales to the smaller Malinios? They are more manageable for paratroopers in tandem jumps. 

lAnyways, I’m just trying to be a responsible buyer and appreciate your (and others) sharing your experiences. It’s nice to get straight forward information in a non-adversarial, non-denigrating way.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> _AKC A333969_
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> _AKC A451841_
> 
> It's worth noting how few_ pre-lance _akc gsd lacked SZ #'s, as well as how few generations back to those that did. In other words most were only 1 or 2 generations removed from import. Meanwhile on _that side_ of the pond...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SZ 764298_
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> _SZ 757701_





berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't know perlich, but I recognize a good number of names from 30 something yrs ago. I wouldn't call perlich a line, but there are some very fine old lines behind perlich peds.
> 
> If you hang around long enough you'll see the phrase "back yard breeders may hold the key to the future of the breed" bandied about on a regular basis. From what I'm able to piece together, perlich peds illustrate that theory. In other words, no popular sire's and none of the "working line" _usual suspects_.
> 
> I've been hunting HARD for 7 months, and those old lines appear to be all but gone, primarily due to introgression.
> 
> Can I see some more photos of your dog? Looks like a very interesting study.


Point of interest. Perlich is a Germanic name, and could be Slavic or Croatian. Means ’bear like’. Could be made up or a family name. But interesting enough. I’ll have to track it down I guess = \. Thanks for looking into it.


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## Sunsilver

Sabis mom said:


> Any German Shepherd unsuitable to live as a pet is out of standard, just like any German Shepherd incapable of work is out of standard.


Sabis, there's a lot of breeders out there that need to learn that! The stories I hear about some of the show dogs, especially some very well known ASL dogs that were heavily used in breeding...

Here's my boy. I still miss him. He was rescued from a guy who kept him on an 8 foot chain pretty much 24/7. At one point, the choke chain he had around his neck was neglected, and it grew into the skin... The owner got some local anesthetic spray, and removed it, tearing it out a couple of links at a time. (A friend of a friend saw this/helped with the removal) He replaced it with a wide leather collar. The collar stunk so badly from being on his neck while that festering wound was healing that I had to throw it out. Amazing what a dog with a truly sound temperament will go through, and still be a wonderful companion. When I first brought him home, he'd perk up his ears and get excited every time a certain make of pickup truck went by. He was still hoping to see the a** who did this to him.


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## Jenny720

I have two Show dogs Max a asl my heart dog and Luna a wgsl who is a complete dream. I did not have to search far and wide for them either. I had young kids when they were both Pups. Stability was number one priority.Both extremely intelligent my male never met a dog like him and human like intelligence and very connected. Luna extremely biddeble social but yet discerning when needs to be. A kid can train her. Both live to please. Highly focused and trainable. There are bad breeders in any bunch you can read all the headlines in the news or google it. It what i did in search for my next dogs. My kids enjoy them as much as I do it’s what I wanted. The results of bad breeding can be violently dangerous. Good breeders help make life grand.


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## Sunsilver

They certainly do, Jenny! And a pox on the ones who keep breeding magnificent looking dogs with crappy temperaments!! Gives the whole breed a bad reputation...


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## Rionel

Sunsilver said:


> Sabis, there's a lot of breeders out there that need to learn that! The stories I hear about some of the show dogs, especially some very well known ASL dogs that were heavily used in breeding...
> 
> Here's my boy. I still miss him. He was rescued from a guy who kept him on an 8 foot chain pretty much 24/7. At one point, the choke chain he had around his neck was neglected, and it grew into the skin... The owner got some local anesthetic spray, and removed it, tearing it out a couple of links at a time. (A friend of a friend saw this/helped with the removal) He replaced it with a wide leather collar. The collar stunk so badly from being on his neck while that festering wound was healing that I had to throw it out. Amazing what a dog with a truly sound temperament will go through, and still be a wonderful companion. When I first brought him home, he'd perk up his ears and get excited every time a certain make of pickup truck went by. He was still hoping to see the a** who did this to him.
> 
> View attachment 561042


Glad your path crossed with his. Sounds like you saved him from horrible neglect - and a nicely built dog to boot!


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## Sunsilver

Yeah, well, his conformation wasn't anything to write home about, but he was sturdy, and never suffered any lameness, despite the flat feet and sloped pasterns. And it definitely was a match made in heaven!

Like Sabis, he saved my life one night. When I fell into a fence post hole that was hidden in the snow, and couldn't get out, he came over to me, and let me lean my weight on his back so I could pull my leg free. It was late at night, and if I hadn't been able to get out of it, I likely would have succumbed to hypothermia.

He's the only non-pedigree dog I've ever considered breeding. I resisted the temptation, though, and had him neutered after he developed a very badly infected prostate.


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## Jenny720

Sunsilver said:


> They certainly do, Jenny! And a pox on the ones who keep breeding magnificent looking dogs with crappy temperaments!! Gives the whole breed a bad reputation...


You should mean to clarify “a pox” to any breeder with one sided goals that put stability at risk - in which the statement widens the circle of reality and not so much an agenda.


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## Sunsilver

Berno, those dogs you posted are what I think a German shepherd SHOULD look like! Very hard to find that sort of structure these days!

And about the SZ numbers, yeah, very true! Lance was a Troll grandson.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sabis mom said:


> There is no need for ratters anymore but terriers abound, ratting instinct intact.
> Maybe some folks don't recognize work ability but having spent a fair bit of time with real stock dogs I consider myself able. The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be an all around dog and it is that herding instinct that makes them so well rounded. The loss of it will irreversibly alter the breed.


I beg to differ there is no need for herding. I had a goat dairy and those can be unruly little buggers! I did not know how to train my shepherd to herd. I did teach her to do to different targets on the fence and could get her to move the goats or cut them off that way. I wished I'd known how to really do it because I could have really used her help.

We've been talking about getting sheep and goats again. On our acreage I could definitely use the help of a good dog. It isn't the same way they were used at first but we all must evolve!


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## Jenny720

I have not seen the herding instinct disappear despite what many say it what makes them incredibly intelligent.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sabis mom said:


> Any German Shepherd unsuitable to live as a pet is out of standard, just like any German Shepherd incapable of work is out of standard.


For me, this mindset is part of the problem with the breed. It was originally developed for herding and I imagine the true, capable herding dogs were primarily owned by shepherds. When herding faded out, the breed was promoted and selectively bred for police and military work and it is likely those dogs went to handlers in the police and military. After WWII, the breed was romanticized on TV shows like Rin Tin Tin and in America, the emphasis was on conformation showing with schutzhund coming to the states in the 1970’s. The popularity, breeding with too much emphasis on conformation, and greed has diluted the gene pool which has led to a high pet market. The breed’s own national dog club, the SV, is all about the show lines which have become an embarrassment as a working dog. That is not to say the breed should be a Cujo dog but rather, more like a Malinois in that they don’t make great pets.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> For me, this mindset is part of the problem with the breed. It was originally developed for herding and I imagine the true, capable herding dogs were primarily owned by shepherds. When herding faded out, the breed was promoted and selectively bred for police and military work and it is likely those dogs went to handlers in the police and military. After WWII, the breed was romanticized on TV shows like Rin Tin Tin and in America, the emphasis was on conformation showing with schutzhund coming to the states in the 1970’s. The popularity, breeding with too much emphasis on conformation, and greed has diluted the gene pool which has led to a high pet market. The breed’s own national dog club, the SV, is all about the show lines which have become an embarrassment as a working dog. That is not to say the breed should be a Cujo dog but rather, more like a Malinois in that they don’t make great pets.


That's just total hogwash Chip. I believe that may be your experience, with the dogs you have or have trained, but you have not evaluated every GSD on the planet. If your preferred lines are down to the retention of two or three traits that assist in bitework, and you've lost everything else, then those dogs are a subset. In the interest of fairness and enlightenment, if you have a genetic study that shows exactly only the genes for bitework remain, I would love to read it. I am all about education.


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## berno von der seeweise

I see both sides of the coin. Like Chip keeps saying about "low heritability" and I keep saying "there's a best in every bunch." One man's trash is another man's treasure. There's a wide variety of temperaments in every litter. That's what the* volhard puppy aptitude test* is for.


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## Rionel

Jenny720 said:


> I have not seen the herding instinct disappear despite what many say it what makes them incredibly intelligent.


Sadly, I get the feeling a lot of breeding community would have walked right past the founding stock Von Stephanitz used.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> I see both sides of the coin. Like Chip keeps saying about "low heritability" and I keep saying "there's a best in every bunch." One man's trash is another man's treasure. There's a wide variety of temperaments in every litter. That's what the* volhard puppy aptitude test* is for.


Yes but how do you get a GSD to hold the pencil to take the test ; ) No offense intended, but that's about how ludicrous generalities can get.


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## berno von der seeweise

give it a try and get back to me after you've screened a couple/few litters 

_post script_: Chip doesn't believe in the* volhard puppy aptitude test *either, so you 2 have at least that much in common


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## Chip Blasiole

First of, von Stephanitz was an unsuccessful breeder. As head of the SV he made poor choices. So what do you want to see the breed used for-seeing eye dogs? That horse has left the barn. Many other breeds including beagles and cocker spaniels can do detection work. Why is the SV so biased toward $how lines who cannot work? There are many more than a few traits that make a GSD a good police or military dog and the breed sport of schutzhund/IGP has further reduced those working traits. 



As far as the best in every litter, the worst pup can be the best producer of a single litter. It is about increasing the likelihood of dominant genes for desirable traits becoming prepotent in a line.
The assessment of breedworthy traits has to come from trainers who can distinguish genetics from training and that is woefully lacking.


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## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> Sadly, I get the feeling a lot of breeding community would have walked right past the founding stock Von Stephanitz used.


I'm just beginning to come to this realization myself so my thoughts aren't entirely composed, but if you dig down deep into the database/earliest foundations from like a Paleontological standpoint or whatever, it begins to appear as though they may have "manufactured" the breed almost entirely. Yes there were landraces involved, and other breeds, and perhaps even a wolf cross or 2 in the beginning; but the type that soon emerged from that genetic gumbo was quite unique. Definitely a big group effort involved.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> give it a try and get back to me after you've screened a couple/few litters
> 
> _post script_: Chip doesn't believe in the* volhard puppy aptitude test *either, so you 2 have at least that much in common


No, my friend, I was just trying to interject a little levity into this silly notion that keeps getting posited. (at least silly to me) I do believe in the merit of that test. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police dog program does just that. I happen to think it is a great practice. Hopefully Chip loves the breed well enough to not produce dogs that lack so much.


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## berno von der seeweise

I use it myself and it's worked wonders for me. So much so that I swear by it. Takes more to read and understand than actually do. Place pups in appropriate homes. Works like a charm.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> First of, von Stephanitz was an unsuccessful breeder. As head of the SV he made poor choices. So what do you want to see the breed used for-seeing eye dogs? That horse has left the barn. Many other breeds including beagles and cocker spaniels can do detection work. Why is the SV so biased toward $how lines who cannot work? There are many more than a few traits that make a GSD a good police or military dog and the breed sport of schutzhund/IGP has further reduced those working traits.


Not sure if I meant to give anyone the impression that I believe the SV should be producing dogs that cannot work. We agree there. Honestly though, I don't know of anybody who has tested every dog of every litter, on every continent, and can say emphatically that all German Shepherds can't do this or can't do that. Maybe the question should be whether Schutzhund has removed so much of the dogs' traits as it has conformed human ones? Schutzhund for all its aspects is still pretty silohed compared to what can go wrong for a police officer. I don't do Schutzhund. I see it as a great outlet, and good to a point in protection training, but not the same nuances as PPD/MWD/ training. I wish I could say I see all these deficits in my dog as you seem to be implying, but they're just not there. Is she perfect? Heck no!! But, I've had her trained by a police K9 handler and lightly evaled by another, and both would work her in some capacity if they had to do so. I would like to see that Beagle stop a hostile perp during a drug bust though. ; )


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## Chip Blasiole

I am not saying all working line GSDs are crap but between temperament and health issues the trend is quickly headed in the wrong direction. The same is becoming true of Mals. Regarding your beagle comment, there are single purpose and dual purpose dogs. Most police dog trainers fall very short of the gold standard and generally put in far fewer hours training than sport trainers and are not the best at reading dogs.


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## Sabis mom

Best and worst in every litter. Two brothers born in the same litter, another breed. One brother was hugely successful in the show ring. The AKC actually used him in their breed standard video. The other brother was a total failure. The champion was a dud as a producer but the other who had been passed around to a handful of substandard breeders and actually had a crappy life *sired more champions then any other stud of that breed registered with the AKC to that point!*
Is this a true story? Yes. How do I know? Because I was his foster home when the final breeder dumped him. By 7 years old he was the leading stud in both Canada and the US. And he never did squat in a show ring. 

I am curious though, and I have asked this before. If the German Shepherd Dog is not suitable as a pet, and should be so edgy and aggressive that only professionals can handle them, what happens to them if they get hurt? Or when they retire? Or if enough of those homes aren't available? What if the handlers get married and have kids?


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## Chip Blasiole

That is another part of the equation. The market drives supply. You see it in the Netherlands with the Mal X’s. After 911 there was a huge demand for very serious dogs. Now that that issue is less prevalent, the trend is to produce super social, extreme prey and hunt drive dogs and valuable genetics will be lost.


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## Jenny720

Rionel said:


> Sadly, I get the feeling a lot of breeding community would have walked right past the founding stock Von Stephanitz used.


They all come from the founding stock so I suppose one who dismisses the trait of stability as if it is a weakness- (let’s not forget why man domesticated the “dog”- as a companion to the family) dismisses the trait of herding instinct- like it is non existent therefore unimportant and is where protective instinct come to play and that human like intelligence and dismisses the importance of hunt drive detection work. Would mostly pass up the stock.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> I am not saying all working line GSDs are crap but between temperament and health issues the trend is quickly headed in the wrong direction. The same is becoming true of Mals. Regarding your beagle comment, there are single purpose and dual purpose dogs. Most police dog trainers fall very short of the gold standard and generally put in far fewer hours training than sport trainers and are not the best at reading dogs.


I absolutely agree with all that. On the flip side, the same stock gets selected for MWD. I'm utilizing the offical US MWD guide and their work includes correcting dog behaviors that would cause police to "wash out" a candidate. So really that speaks to your earliest point on training - GOOD training is essential. Sorry about the Beagle joke - just saw that in my head and thought it comical. But, yes of course single purpose dogs. And a great point we should all want a dog that will hunt, so to speak. Sorry if we've been speaking past one another. Not my intent.


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## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> Best and worst in every litter. Two brothers born in the same litter, another breed. One brother was hugely successful in the show ring. The AKC actually used him in their breed standard video. The other brother was a total failure. The champion was a dud as a producer but the other who had been passed around to a handful of substandard breeders and actually had a crappy life *sired more champions then any other stud of that breed registered with the AKC to that point!*
> Is this a true story? Yes. How do I know? Because I was his foster home when the final breeder dumped him. By 7 years old he was the leading stud in both Canada and the US. And he never did squat in a show ring.
> 
> I am curious though, and I have asked this before. If the German Shepherd Dog is not suitable as a pet, and should be so edgy and aggressive that only professionals can handle them, what happens to them if they get hurt? Or when they retire? Or if enough of those homes aren't available? What if the handlers get married and have kids?


That is a qood question. I have seen a bunch of documentaries where many MWD get put down and many get retrained and socialized. Haven't seen anything on police dogs. To me that suggests that those dogs had especially good instincts and could adapt. If you've never seen the movie, 'Megan Leavey', it's a really good true story.


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## Chip Blasiole

Jenny27,
Having a socially appropriate dog from a work or sport point of view is very different from what a pet owner considers stability.


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## Jenny720

@chipblaisole How so Chip? I’m not talking about drives, but Stability a dog who does not react dangerously undisciplined to a non threatening situation an important trait regardless of the purpose of the dog.


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## Chip Blasiole

It depends on what the dog is used for. In one role, mistrust of strangers is a genetic trait that can be valuable. Same for territorial aggression. A degree of dominance can bring power to bite work, but these traits would likely not be managed well in a strictly pet home. As a result, many dogs get labeled as unstable. High prey drive, possessiveness and frustration aggression are other useful traits depending on the role of the dog that would not mesh well in a strictly pet home. Genetically hardwired, strong active defense is very desirable if the threshold is not too low and the nerves are good, but not in a strictly pet home. Just a few examples.


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## berno von der seeweise

personally I'm more the rin tin tin type, believe it or not; but just now I heard a news report about child traffickers "harvesting" kids via online gaming, and I think to myself 'Chip *really ought* to be breeding'

I see both sides of the coin

_post script: _sick balls cujo!


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## MineAreWorkingline

A lot of the proplem stems from defining a nonthreat vs a threat. It is very subjective. I have seen numerous times on this forum where people see an intoxicated man or homeless person and automatically assume that they are a threat. The clean cut, nicely dressed, courteous man is often viewed as a nonthreat. My life experiences have shown me differently. I found a very intoxicated man on a river trail the other day @ noon. I had three dogs with me and none viewed him as a threat despite him stopping to chat briefly. Contact is a common trigger especially in isolation with my dogs, untrained. The dogs ignored the man and my only worry was as high as he was that they may find him floating in the river. I suspect many on here would have been disappointed if their dogs had the same reaction as the dogs I had with me that day did.


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## Sunsilver

Question for you, MineAreWorkingLine: Did YOU feel the man was a threat? Because so often, our dogs pick up on our feelings about the person. If we don't feel threatened, they are chill.


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## Jenny720

Just because a dog is stable does not mean the dog does not defend. Stability and being social to me are two different things. I had a trained police dog one who did not pass the test because he would not let go. He was then rehomed as a dog to guard the previous owners mechanic shop and he had kids. Then rehomed to me as they had some life changes. The dogs was always very calm but strong quiet drives and never over reacted he had a really good threshold was able to discern a threat and was trained to bite for real. People seem to sense his strength and intensity but yet he was not menancing in anyway. All these traits is what Allowed him to be rehomed by a family whom by the way was my first experience owning a German shepherd. The dogs was an easy dog. He liked his own space he would not act out but clearly uncomfortable and that was respected. He was only social to Close family members and friends but would play ball with a stranger with no emotional connection. Just because dog has discernment and good thresholds which to me equate to stability does not make him less protective.In my opinion even social German shepherd are not equivalent to your average social dog. German shepherds are all are aloof to strangers some more watchful of others and some are capable to go with the flow more of the needs arises and only be more comfortable with it. My male watchful of strangers he looks to me for direction in certain situations. They both follow my lead. My female aloof to strangers but if she has not much choice she will play the role and go with the flow of the moment speaking of when she was grabbed from behind as we were Iine she returned with kindness but would rather be left alone I can imagine.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sunsilver said:


> Question for you, MineAreWorkingLine: Did YOU feel the man was a threat? Because so often, our dogs pick up on our feelings about the person. If we don't feel threatened, they are chill.


No, I did not feel that this man was a threat. BUT, I am not a person that likes to act on MY gut reaction. I have found in the past that I usually can't trust my own gut reaction.


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## Jenny720

I found trusting my dogs reaction when they are matured at times -to people if the watchfulness is a bit more intense. I was on the woods on few occasions walking down the path seeing someone who I noticed max seemed to be more watchful of the following week walking Luna passed a car in the woods she was watching them to and I then realized same person was there as I was walking by a drug transaction. I just kept walking but glad she was with me.


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## berno von der seeweise

My pup is 7/8 ddr, and nearly 7 months old. I've seen him nose to nose with hummingbirds, butterflies, bumble bees, honey bees, toads, wood frogs, tree frogs, all sorts of critters. He just blinks at them. They seem to have no fear of him whatsoever. This spring, when he started loosing his undercoat, I saw a bird swoop down and snatch a tuft of "ddr cashmere" off him as he napped in the sun. When my 30 year old daughter tells him "you're like a real a disney princess!" he wags his tail uncontrollably and rolls over on his back.
When he first arrived (7 wks old) I saw my barn cat bring him a mouse a few times. Couple months later my barn cat had kittens and I saw my pup bring her a mouse a few times. The only critter he doesn't like is snakes. I assume he saw a snake kill a frog or something, and that made him dislike? Whatever?
I've kept him social and intend to continue. When he barks at anyone we let him know we are in complete control of the situation. No problem. To that extent, so far, I think he'd make a fine pet for anyone who understands "pack hierarchy" (obedience, obedience, obedience!).
I've put a lot of time into developing and training his bite and it is CRAZY! He just keeps blowing me away and he's not even half grown. You hear people say their dog has an "off switch," but my pup seems to operate in "off mode." When I flip his switch "on" he just explodes. Like there's a demon in his soul, just waiting to be loosed. I shudder to think of these genetics on the wrong side of the law... the stuff of nightmares... I'll have to remember to have DD get some photos when she comes around. She says her next cell (soon) will have video so I'm looking forward to that. Like she'll be able to record a video here and then upload it for me when she get's closer to a tower. I think? I don't really know how all that works?

Anyway, so, the ddr disney princess business is all well and good. I'm not complaining. But for the life of me I do not understand the low prey drive? I've worked other ddr breeds and they seemed to have much, MUCH higher prey? What's the deal with the ddr gsd low prey? It's obviously hard wired into the type. My question is why? Is it like a trade off? Higher defense = lower prey? Higher prey = lower defense? I'm still trying to figure that out?


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## MineAreWorkingline

I have found that prey drive comes in more than one flavor. I see the hectic and chaotic prey drive of the GSDs and Mals that will target anything, be that anything something trained or not vs that of the little blue Heeler whose prey drive is just as powerful but totally focused on livestock, fowl, and large, unruly dogs. She is enamored with small, non livestock animals and loves to kiss and cuddle them. I once had a GSD like her, small wonder he had herding titled dogs up closer.

Manfred Heyne speaks of appropriate prey drive, super high prey drive, needed for herding BUT is focused on sheep. Dogs with chaotic, unfocused prey drive aren't suitable for herding. Who needs dogs that will leave their duties to chase the plentiful wild rabbits and other wildlife in the field? Or worse, aren't all that interested in sheep?

And then there is low prey drive DDR dogs whose job was to protect the home and family. A lot can happen on the home front when faithful Fido is off chasing deer.

Today's high prey drive is a product of change where such drive is needed not only to perform well in sports, and do it with flash, but the need for real working dogs to work away from the handler, be it a building search, pursuing a suspect, etc.


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> And then there is low prey drive DDR dogs whose job was to protect the home and family. A lot can happen on the home front when faithful Fido is off chasing deer.


near as I can decipher, v stephanitz seems to suggest in his book that gsd began as a 3 way composite between "swabian, wurttemberger, and thuringian"

the old ddr dogs in the database seem to tend toward thuringian in appearance (_maybe?_ _I think?_) so what you say above makes me wonder if maybe low prey wasn't just inherent in that type?

WIKI: "from July 1945, the state of Thuringia came under the Soviet occupation zone" (_ie; "ddr"_). Czech foundations (_ie; "ddr"_) suggest thuringian type as well (_to my eye?_) and the geographical relationship between historical thuringia and czechia may also support?

But this is all "_double rectified 180 proof_" pure speculation on my part, and I'm hoping somebody here will set me straight?


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have found that prey drive comes in more than one flavor. I see the hectic and chaotic prey drive of the GSDs and Mals that will target anything, be that anything something trained or not vs that of the little blue Heeler whose prey drive is just as powerful but totally focused on livestock, fowl, and large, unruly dogs. She is enamored with small, non livestock animals and loves to kiss and cuddle them. I once had a GSD like her, small wonder he had herding titled dogs up closer.
> 
> Manfred Heyne speaks of appropriate prey drive, super high prey drive, needed for herding BUT is focused on sheep. Dogs with chaotic, unfocused prey drive aren't suitable for herding. Who needs dogs that will leave their duties to chase the plentiful wild rabbits and other wildlife in the field? Or worse, aren't all that interested in sheep?
> 
> And then there is low prey drive DDR dogs whose job was to protect the home and family. A lot can happen on the home front when faithful Fido is off chasing deer.
> 
> Today's high prey drive is a product of change where such drive is needed not only to perform well in sports, and do it with flash, but the need for real working dogs to work away from the handler, be it a building search, pursuing a suspect, etc.


I had no issues with the more controlled prey drive and dogs doing building searches. Bud was a lot of DDR, as far as I know, and completely awesome at keeping a boundary. The prey drive in my Heelers and crosses was totally different then what I see in a dog like Shadow who is all prey all the time and would hunt and chase 24/7. My Heelers were working cattle dogs, so needed to be focused on the task at hand not off chasing gophers. The chickens and barn cats weren't even on the radar unless they were saying hi. 
Sabi adopted anything on the property from birds to goats, guarded, tended and moved them around as she deemed necessary. She had no issues performing her tasks at work but I think she viewed humans as sort of stupid.


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> Bud was a lot of DDR, as far as I know


Bud's line is an *outstanding* illustration of "linebreeding" (_AKA preservation breeding, heritage breeding)_

not exclusive to dogs, but applicable to any germplasm deemed worthy of conservation 

all in all a very diverse ped, but follow the sire lines back


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## Chip Blasiole

IMO, there are dogs who genetically are prone to hectic prey drive and the influence of IGP selecting for less balanced dogs is a factor,
but I think most hectic prey drive in sport is created through poor training. You can see it just by pulling up a random YouTube video. This awareness has become very apparent to me from switching from schutzhund to PSA. Many in PSA also create hectiness which is especially a problem due to the sport essentially being. Mal sport, a breed typically with higher prey drive than a GSD. A dog has to learn to think and that becomes harder the higher the state of drive is in.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Bud's line is an *outstanding* illustration of "linebreeding" (_AKA preservation breeding, heritage breeding)_
> 
> not exclusive to dogs, but applicable to any germplasm deemed worthy of conservation
> 
> all in all a very diverse ped, but follow the sire lines back


That pedigree is simply the sire line, I cannot for the life of me remember the names of his dams parents. And his paperwork was never transferred to me.
I have searched high and low for dogs with similar lineage. Came up with nothing.
Bud displayed good health, good structure and probably a decent temperament. He was badly abused as a pup so there were some issues, he was sharper then I would have liked and very territorial. He took no crap from anyone, had zero issues biting and being serious about it. BUT, he was great with other dogs and safe around most animals, he could track anything, he was deliberate and steady about working. He took a dim view of humans trespassing. He was highly athletic, which made fencing him a challenge. He lived to be nearly 14 and was still vaulting over 6 foot fences at 10. He was washed from any protection training. He firmly believed a threat to me should stop existing permanently. I would have loved to breed him.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip Blasiole said:


> IMO, there are dogs who genetically are prone to hectic prey drive and the influence of IGP selecting for less balanced dogs is a factor,
> but I think most hectic prey drive in sport is created through poor training. You can see it just by pulling up a random YouTube video. This awareness has become very apparent to me from switching from schutzhund to PSA. Many in PSA also create hectiness which is especially a problem due to the sport essentially being. Mal sport, a breed typically with higher prey drive than a GSD. A dog has to learn to think and that becomes harder the higher the state of drive is in.


Chip, I am not disagreeing with your post. You are in a good place to observe these things about IGP and PSA and I am sure that there is much to what you say.

But the dogs I am talking about have had no formal training and the observations are just from every day life.


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## Chip Blasiole

But they can be trained to cap their prey drive to different extents depending on the goal. Also, some dogs are showing hyperactivity as opposed to prey.
Heyne was quoted as saying the selection for unnatural prey drive due to schutzhund was foolish. His dogs genetically knew where to grip a sheep and pull him down without harming the sheep and different regions had preferred areas of the body for the dogs to grip the sheep and this was the result of selection and genetic obedience. It became a very different and artificial practice to select dogs that were crazy for a toy. The same happened with Mals. They were originally different, smarter dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> First of, von Stephanitz was an unsuccessful breeder. As head of the SV he made poor choices. So what do you want to see the breed used for-seeing eye dogs? That horse has left the barn. Many other breeds including beagles and cocker spaniels can do detection work. Why is the SV so biased toward $how lines who cannot work? There are many more than a few traits that make a GSD a good police or military dog and the breed sport of schutzhund/IGP has further reduced those working traits.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the best in every litter, the worst pup can be the best producer of a single litter. It is about increasing the likelihood of dominant genes for desirable traits becoming prepotent in a line.
> The assessment of breedworthy traits has to come from trainers who can distinguish genetics from training and that is woefully lacking.


Yes! Seeing eye dogs! GSDs can be awesome service dogs and what an honorable and important job. 

It is not a job to be scoffed at, and why should we just give up because big programs use labs more?


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## Chip Blasiole

The GSD is rarely used as guide/ service dog anymore.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes! Seeing eye dogs! GSDs can be awesome service dogs and what an honorable and important job.
> 
> It is not a job to be scoffed at, and why should we just give up because big programs use labs more?


I could be wrong, but don't those organizations that still use German Shepherds breed there own? If memory serves me correctly, they claim that their dogs are an entirely different line of GSDs from what we are familiar with.


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## Chip Blasiole

Fortunate Fields was a project years ago that was a very scientifically planned breeding program that produced great dogs as seeing eye/guide dogs, but those lines are long gone. Now, Poodles and Retrievers are used and the retrievers are pet stock as opposed to field stock which is somewhat equivalent to GSD working lines in terms of drive and hardness.


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## Jenny720

There is organization in New Jersey they used there German shepherds a highly successful seeing eye dogs that are widely used presently. There are many Germans shepherds doing service work of all lines they can be found on Instagram dogs working them daily. These were just a few but so many have quite a big fan club.




__





GSD service dogs ♥️ (@service.shepherd.society) • Instagram photos and videos







instagram.com









__





The Seeing Eye - The Seeing Eye Viewpoint






www.seeingeye.org


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## MineAreWorkingline

I see a lot of high risk breeds and individual dogs of various breeds with aggression issues being used for service dogs despite their issues. A lot of innocent people and pets have been harmed, or worse, by dogs that should have been washed but are presented as service dogs. There simply is no accountability by law for the training or the dog itself. It's a free for all in the service dog industry.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Chip Blasiole said:


> Fortunate Fields was a project years ago that was a very scientifically planned breeding program that produced great dogs as seeing eye/guide dogs, but those lines are long gone. Now, Poodles and Retrievers are used and the retrievers are pet stock as opposed to field stock which is somewhat equivalent to GSD working lines in terms of drive and hardness.


Wait a minute. I can't think of a big guide org that is using poodles in number? I know of tons that use labs and CCI is crossing labs and goldens. I totally understand why the big programs went to labs, moreso now that I own one. 

I'd argue poodles are used less than GSDs, just off the top of my head, but if I am wrong someone by all means tell me. Fidelco still uses GSDs, SEeing Eye still uses GSDs. I _think_

Yes those lines are still disappearing. Not totally gone but nearly. I know of one stud dog who was heavily used in guide/ SD programs and produced very well, who still exists on ice whether any of those AI breedings will ever succeed, who knows. 

Are those the only GSD lines that can do the work? Who the heck knows if we don't try. My point was why should all of us GSD fanciers throw up our hands and say, eh, our breed isn't used for SD work anymore, when it is an honorable and great modern job for this breed. LOTS of owner training handlers are training GSDs of questionable lineage, for questionable reasons, and probably a lot of those dogs shouldn't be working but if any of them can, good for them!

I remember hearing that some big service dog organization was using a WGSL stud from some reputable kennel... Alta Tollhaus maybe? Does anyone remember? 

In my view a GSD that can do this kind of work is at least as useful to our world today as a GSD that can do IGP. Especially since as everyone is so fond of saying and I assume it's true...that the sport is causing breeders to breed "prey monsters"? Or whatever you call them


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## MineAreWorkingline

Prey monkeys. 😁


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## Fodder

There are several (almost half) guide dog schools in the US that still use GSD and there are slight differences in where / how they source their dogs depending on the size of their program. Labradors and Goldens definitely dominate the field, mixes and Poodles would come next but in significantly smaller numbers. Of the schools that use GSD, aside from Fidelco who uses shepherds exclusively, i’d estimate GSD make up 5% or less (of total dogs in the program, not just the ones who graduate). They certainly have their own breeding stock, i have not heard of claims of anyone having their own separate “line” as of recent years (again, program size plays a part)... Fidelco regularly uses outside working line stock. i don’t work there so unfortunately i don’t have any more specific details.

GSD were phased out for many reasons... the main one being changes in the demographics of blind individuals - we had less soldiers returning home from war who were capable or had the desire to handle a german shepherd. the training cycles were twice as long as they are now (meaning longer time in the kennels), training techniques have changed, the shepherds didn’t take to kennel life or frequent handler changes as well as other breeds and also a huge factor was placement of the dogs who were washed...usually for some level of aggression. the people who could handle them weren’t applying, and those who were, didn’t have the right breed knowledge, handling skills or realistic expectations. guide dog school names are attached to these dogs forever - placement has to be very careful.

anyway, all generalizations of course... just sharing what i know since the topic came up.


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I see a lot of high risk breeds and individual dogs of various breeds with aggression issues being used for service dogs despite their issues. A lot of innocent people and pets have been harmed, or worse, by dogs that should have been washed but are presented as service dogs. There simply is no accountability by law for the training or the dog itself. It's a free for all in the service dog industry.


I totally agree, and I hadn't even read this when I wrote post above about questionable dogs for questionable reasons.

It seems to be like a badge of honor to use a really unlikely breed for a service dog. If for no other reason, stack the odds in your favor by getting a dog whose breed traits aren't totally contrary to the work. 

I get the whole "I don't like labs" thing. Because I didn't think I did either. But mine has totally converted me.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Fodder said:


> There are several (almost half) guide dog schools in the US that still use GSD and there are slight differences in where / how they source their dogs depending on the size of their program. Labradors and Goldens definitely dominate the field, mixes and Poodles would come next but in significantly smaller numbers. Of the schools that use GSD, aside from Fidelco who uses shepherds exclusively, i’d estimate GSD make up 5% or less (of total dogs in the program, not just the ones who graduate). They certainly have their own breeding stock, i have not heard of claims of anyone having their own separate “line” as of recent years (again, program size plays a part)... Fidelco regularly uses outside working line stock. i don’t work there so unfortunately i don’t have any more specific details.
> 
> GSD were phased out for many reasons... the main one being changes in the demographics of blind individuals - we had less soldiers returning home from war who were capable or had the desire to handle a german shepherd. the training cycles were twice as long as they are now (meaning longer time in the kennels), training techniques have changed, the shepherds didn’t take to kennel life or frequent handler changes as well as other breeds and also a huge factor was placement of the dogs who were washed...usually for some level of aggression. the people who could handle them weren’t applying, and those who were, didn’t have the right breed knowledge, handling skills or realistic expectations. guide dog school names are attached to these dogs forever - placement has to be very careful.
> 
> anyway, all generalizations of course... just sharing what i know since the topic came up.


Can't remember and too lazy to look but it wasn't all that long ago that one of the organizations that bred their own GSDs actually had that information on their website, about creating their own line of GSDs.


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## Fodder

@Thecowboysgirl i’d have to pull up the info, but gsd and poodles are pretty neck and neck, fidelco may tilt things a bit. off the top of my head, pilot dogs, guide dog foundation, occupaws and guide dogs of the desert all use poodles. freedom uses a breed that is often mistaken for a poodle, the barbet, and Guide dogs of Texas uses Labradoodles.


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## Fodder

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can't remember and too lazy to look but it wasn't all that long ago that one of the organizations that bred their own GSDs actually had that information on their website, about creating their own line of GSDs.


yeah, i’m not sure either... which school, or the accuracy of their statement. we have “our lines” of labs and goldens... but we also participate in exchanges with other schools for diversity purposes. a schools own line can only exist so long before they have to introduce new dogs. maybe is a just a service dog line, lol, especially since we exchange with CCI too.


----------



## Jenny720

Cool pictures 








The German shepherd dog in word and picture : Stephanitz, Max von, 1863- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Colored illustration mounted on cover



archive.org


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

This is what Fidelco's site used to say, a breed within a breed:

"
_The Fidelco German Shepherd Dog

We describe them as "a breed within a breed." The Fidelco German Shepherd was created from Bavarian stock. It is an outstanding and exclusive product of selective breeding from strong working lines and has evolved to be truly a breed within a breed. Our dogs possess the characteristics of the ideal working guide; intelligence, temperament, stamina and stability.

They are responsible for our clients’ safety at all times. This formidable task requires us to have an uncompromising focus on the quality of the breed and extensive service training, which are the hallmarks of the Fidelco Shepherd, together with thoughtful and deliberate matching and placement - Partners in Exceptional."_


----------



## Jenny720

Morristown New Jersey- seeing eye dogs The Seeing Eye - The Seeing Eye Viewpoint


----------



## Fodder

Jenny720 said:


> Morristown New Jersey- seeing eye dogs The Seeing Eye - The Seeing Eye Viewpoint


are you pointing out something specific? link takes me to blog posts.


----------



## Jenny720

Fodder said:


> are you pointing out something specific? link takes me to blog posts.


It was following the discussion of German shepherd as guide dogs as a comment was made they were obsolete. There is a menu option with a drop down menu. They use there own breeding program of Germans shepherds.


----------



## Fodder

Jenny720 said:


> It was following the discussion of German shepherd as guide dogs as a comment was made they were obsolete. There is a menu option with a drop down menu. They use there own breeding program of Germans shepherds.


oh, yes...
and others:
Fidelco (mentioned)
Guide Dogs of America
Guide Dogs of the Desert (on occasion)
Guiding Eyes for the Blind
Leader Dogs
Pilot Dogs (some dogs are donated)


----------



## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> It depends on what the dog is used for. In one role, mistrust of strangers is a genetic trait that can be valuable. Same for territorial aggression. A degree of dominance can bring power to bite work, but these traits would likely not be managed well in a strictly pet home. As a result, many dogs get labeled as unstable. High prey drive, possessiveness and frustration aggression are other useful traits depending on the role of the dog that would not mesh well in a strictly pet home. Genetically hardwired, strong active defense is very desirable if the threshold is not too low and the nerves are good, but not in a strictly pet home. Just a few examples.





Jenny720 said:


> Cool pictures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The German shepherd dog in word and picture : Stephanitz, Max von, 1863- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
> 
> 
> Colored illustration mounted on cover
> 
> 
> 
> archive.org


Nice reference- thanks for sharing Jenny720.


----------



## Jenny720

Rionel said:


> Nice reference- thanks for sharing Jenny720.


Yes how cool is a lot of good reading.


----------



## Jenny720

Fodder said:


> oh, yes...
> and others:
> Fidelco (mentioned)
> Guide Dogs of America
> Guide Dogs of the Desert (on occasion)
> Guiding Eyes for the Blind
> Leader Dogs
> Pilot Dogs (some dogs are donated)


----------



## Jenny720

@Fodder There are quite a few it’s so good to see!


----------



## Fodder

Jenny720 said:


> @Fodder There are quite a few it’s so good to see!


yes, but since less than half the schools use them, the largest schools do not, and of those that do they make up 5% or less of the program... not to mention a lower success rate overall - even with fidelco, because of their smaller size.... i’d say today, GSD make up about 2% of working guides. they’re there.. but it’s not many. there was a big shift around 2008/2009.

the school that i work for currently has 1 gsd left in the field, she’s 14.


----------



## Jenny720

Fodder said:


> yes, but since less than half the schools use them, the largest schools do not, and of those that do they make up 5% or less of the program... not to mention a lower success rate overall - even with fidelco, because of their smaller size.... i’d say today, GSD make up about 2% of working guides. they’re there.. but it’s not many. there was a big shift around 2008/2009.
> 
> the school that i work for currently has 1 gsd left in the field, she’s 14.


I know fidelco is a few town over near be they use only labs. The school I listed in New Jersey I called awhile back they use a large amount of German shepherds there number is listed they breed there own dogs.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I just think many are beating a nostalgic dead horse. The GSD history is full of misinformation, one example of the founder being quoted as keeping his breed a working breed, yet an early foundation dog that all GSDs go back to, was touted as a genetic mutant and a gift- Roland von Starkenburg. He had a desirable type but was a nerve bag. The breed was developed as a specific herding breed and became promoted as a police/military dog and later as versatile dog/Jack or all trades but master of none. Then there was the split and valuable working genetics in both herding and as a police/military dogs were lost due to petty standard issues such as a lack of a black mask or slightly oversized, etc. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I think the emphasis should be on breeding healthy dogs that excel in both man work and detection. Not sport or show or guide dogs or agility or dock diving, etc. Just look at all the post with either temperament issues or owners unable to manage basic puppy challenges. My dog as a pup, was housed in an attached garage with a doggie door and had several acres to be on his own when left alone. He quickly learned to constantly knock over his water bucket. I screwed a metal bucket to a workbench leg and put another bucket with water in that bucket. Within a week. He tore the bucket and leg off the workbench. Then I went to bolting the bucket the the repaired workbench leg. He would come charging to me and my wife and knocked her on her ass multiple times by hitting her center mass. He has had hundreds or more hours of training and now is the perfect house dog. Come around the property and he shows overt aggression as in the van. His aggression is well managed and his obedience is at a high level, but he would have been rehomed at the least in a pet home, yet, he is my pet.


----------



## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> I just think many are beating a nostalgic dead horse. The GSD history is full of misinformation, one example of the founder being quoted as keeping his breed a working breed, yet an early foundation dog that all GSDs go back to, was touted as a genetic mutant and a gift- Roland von Starkenburg. He had a desirable type but was a nerve bag. The breed was developed as a specific herding breed and became promoted as a police/military dog and later as versatile dog/Jack or all trades but master of none. Then there was the split and valuable working genetics in both herding and as a police/military dogs were lost due to petty standard issues such as a lack of a black mass or slightly oversized, etc. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I think the emphasis should be on breeding healthy dogs that excel in both man work and detection. Not sport or show or guide dogs or agility or dock diving, etc. Just look at all the post with either temperament issues or owners unable to manage basic puppy challenges. My dog as a pup, was housed in an attached garage with a doggie door and had several acres to be on his own when left alone. He quickly learned to constantly knock over his water bucket. I screwed a metal bucket to a workbench leg and put another bucket with water in that bucket. Within a week. He tore the bucket and leg off the workbench. Then I went to bolting the bucket the the repaired workbench leg. He would come charging to me and my wife and knocked her on her ass multiple times by hitting her center mass. He has had hundreds or more hours of training and now is the perfect house dog. Come around the property and he shows overt aggression as in the van. His aggression is well managed and his obedience is at a high level, but he would have been rehomed at the least in a pet home, yet, he is my pet.


I can certainly get on board with healthier bred dogs. The book that Jenny720 linked above has some really excellent passages about breeding/consolidation and cases for and against it. (I think around page 340 or so) It's probably a repeat for some, but explains a lot. One point made (and I've seen this) is the heavy imprint of genetic material of the GSD when bred to a cur. It can be so heavy that it's easy to mistake the progeny as purebred Shepherd from a casual glance. From that standpoint I can see why these genetic discussions get so passionate.


----------



## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> He has had hundreds or more hours of training and now is the perfect house dog.


I don't want to knock anyone's dog, want to be clear on that.
Who really wants a dog that needs hundreds of hours to attain house dog status. I raised multiple patrol dogs, dogs that went on to earn their kibble, none of them needed that kind of work. 
I also housed multiple patrol dogs at my house over the years, none displayed really overt aggression though all would alert me to a visitor on the property, all would readily challenge a hostile intruder and all would react to an actual threat, lol, it was their job. Most were vocal about the patrol truck. 
I know the breeding behind them all, and even I know enough to know they were well bred, working dogs. All were related to Bud.


----------



## Rionel

Jenny720 said:


> Yes how cool is a lot of good reading.


VERY cool. I've already upped my GSD IQ a bit this evening. Thanks again.


----------



## Sabis mom

@Rionel I am still trying to dig up info on the Perlich dogs. I'm really interested now.


----------



## Bearshandler

The German Shepherd breed is based off of land race shepherding dogs. Since the beginning pretty much, the working focus has been on police and military work. That is what is being referred to when people talk about working ability. Most other jobs people think of can be performed by a lot of other breeds. Most other jobs, a shepherd could be perform quit well but would be considered inadequate for breeding by most working line people. Take most service dogs for instance, where a softer temperament is ideal. I don't think a German Shepherd should be a dog that takes an expert trainer to control and turn into a good house pet. I am whole-heartedly against breedings that move the breed away from that military/patrol work capability. I believe a shepherd ideally should be a dog that tolerates strangers and is social with people it lives with. It shouldn't show unnecessary aggression to people or other dogs. The judge check at a show or trial should not be cause for concern. It should not be timid either. It should rise to meet any challenge or threat with sufficient force. It shouldn't be so hard that a handler is risking attack anytime they give a correction, but should not fall apart from one either. They should be easily trainable for just about any task. I don't think the focus needs to be on overly hard dogs to achieve this, but breeding dogs who can't perform should be avoided at all cost. If youre breeding for balanced dogs, you will occasionally produce some softer ones that will be more suited for family life and some harder ones that require an experienced handler. Neither of the extremes is ideal. I've had overly soft dogs, and its not something I want again. I've also dealt with dogs that would turn their aggression on me as the handler, and I don't want that either.


----------



## Bearshandler

From what I saw, Perlich's appear to be an American showline dogs. I could be wrong though


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> The German Shepherd breed is based off of land race shepherding dogs. Since the beginning pretty much, the working focus has been on police and military work. That is what is being referred to when people talk about working ability. Most other jobs people think of can be performed by a lot of other breeds. Most other jobs, a shepherd could be perform quit well but would be considered inadequate for breeding by most working line people. Take most service dogs for instance, where a softer temperament is ideal. I don't think a German Shepherd should be a dog that takes an expert trainer to control and turn into a good house pet. I am whole-heartedly against breedings that move the breed away from that military/patrol work capability. I believe a shepherd ideally should be a dog that tolerates strangers and is social with people it lives with. It shouldn't show unnecessary aggression to people or other dogs. The judge check at a show or trial should not be cause for concern. It should not be timid either. It should rise to meet any challenge or threat with sufficient force. It shouldn't be so hard that a handler is risking attack anytime they give a correction, but should not fall apart from one either. They should be easily trainable for just about any task. I don't think the focus needs to be on overly hard dogs to achieve this, but breeding dogs who can't perform should be avoided at all cost. If youre breeding for balanced dogs, you will occasionally produce some softer ones that will be more suited for family life and some harder ones that require an experienced handler. Neither of the extremes is ideal. I've had overly soft dogs, and its not something I want again. I've also dealt with dogs that would turn their aggression on me as the handler, and I don't want that either.


This is exactly where I'm at. A dog that *can't* be a pet is just as out of standard as a dog that *can't *work. I don't know where this interpretation of aloof as aggressive came from. My dog meeting a friendly stranger should not be cause for concern. That is where discernment comes in. I have walked patrol dogs through buildings and never, ever worried that they might bite a cleaning lady or a guy working late in his office. Those same dogs had zero issues with figuring out the difference between the drunk guy waiting on a cab and the drunk guy waiting on a fight.

Perlich dogs- @dogfaeries or @wolfstraum. Anyone recognize that as a kennel name?


----------



## Sunsilver

Bearshandler said:


> From what I saw, Perlich's appear to be an American showline dogs. I could be wrong though


There are 6 Perlich dogs in the pedigree database. All are AKC registered. None of them have any titles listed, and if you follow them back far enough, none of their ancestors have titles either. No working titles, no conformation. Eventually, the line just peters out, with no well-known kennel names shown at all.

I honestly can't see anything special about this kennel name at all. It looks like it was a pet breeder, who bred a couple of litters, then quit.





__





Search - Perlich







www.pedigreedatabase.com


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Sabis mom,
The hundreds of hours hasn’t been for manners, it has been for PSA including development of bite mechanics and precision obedience. This training bleeds over into relationship development, teaching the dog to think and make good choices, reliable obedience for practical non-sport related things, exposing the dog to stress and teaching him how to work through which builds confidence, as well as being a good way to channel drive.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> From what I saw, Perlich's appear to be an American showline dogs. I could be wrong though


Lots of whites and silvers back there. Some American and Canadian showlines, a smattering of German dogs way back.


----------



## Chip Blasiole




----------



## Chip Blasiole

Example


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Sunsilver said:


> There are 6 Perlich dogs in the pedigree database. All are AKC registered. None of them have any titles listed, and if you follow them back far enough, none of their ancestors have titles either. No working titles, no conformation. Eventually, the line just peters out, with no well-known kennel names shown at all.
> 
> I honestly can't see anything special about this kennel name at all. It looks like it was a pet breeder, who bred a couple of litters, then quit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Search - Perlich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Lots of whites and silvers back there. Some American and Canadian showlines, a smattering of German dogs way back.


I wouldn't say "special" but very_ distantly_ related to the various types you'll find today.

Your dog looks phenominal Chip! PSA has come a long way in what _feels like_ a very short time here. Are you training for the tracking/scent phases as well? Beautiful conformation on that dog! I can't get over it. He's gorgeous!


----------



## Bearshandler

Sunsilver said:


> There are 6 Perlich dogs in the pedigree database. All are AKC registered. None of them have any titles listed, and if you follow them back far enough, none of their ancestors have titles either. No working titles, no conformation. Eventually, the line just peters out, with no well-known kennel names shown at all.
> 
> I honestly can't see anything special about this kennel name at all. It looks like it was a pet breeder, who bred a couple of litters, then quit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Search - Perlich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Lots of whites and silvers back there. Some American and Canadian showlines, a smattering of German dogs way back.


I pretty much see the same thing. I also traced some the offspring produced by perlich dogs. One thing I will point out, is the database is used more for working lines and German showlines. American/Canadian showlines aren’t commonly put in. Not a whole lot to look into as far as this breeder.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

early 90's, admixture of old black and tans, whites, black and silvers. No lance of fran jo, no highline, no ddr. The remnants of the type uncle sugar deployed to SE asia 25 yrs earlier. If I could find one today, I'd give it a try.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Thanks bvds. That is what I meant by hundreds of hours of training. I think you thinking about American Schutzhund which is affiliated with PSA, when you mention tracking and scent work. There is no nose work in PSA.


----------



## BigOzzy2018

For me I see the “lack of versatility” in the GSD. For example and there are many, Either they are great in Schutzhund but horrible in AKC OB, too friendly or will bite your face off in a sec. 
I’ve had my share of GSD’s the male I have is THE BEST versatile GSD I’ve ever had and seen. Solid nerves, aloof, excellent in the house, aggression is super just starting to tap into it, excellent off switch yet always ready to work. Great with kids, which he did not grow up with, could care less about other dogs. He is titled in AKC OB Certified therapy dog, just got his dock diving title herding instinct test done, CGC CGCU and we are training in IPG which he does extremely well in all 3 phases. ready for the BH. We can do so much more but no time. Most think these titles or accomplishments are wimpy or easy but it just shows he is what a GSD should be, VERSATILE. He would be fine as a house pet just would need exercise and stimulation. I don’t see this trait anymore in the GSD which is sad.


----------



## Sabis mom

@BigOzzy2018 the Oz man is an outstanding example of the versatility I and others are seeking. It should be easy to find in this breed. It should not require a degree to find a balanced stable dog that can and will do it all. And do it happily. 
@Rionel your girl is another great example. She is lovely to look at and your description speaks to a well balanced dog as well. Looking through her pedigree some may not see much but the end result is what matters. Perhaps someone smarter then us had a plan.
@Chip Blasiole Your dog is lovely and kudos to you for putting the work in. A non threatening person playing with stuff in a chair should not require more then a cursory intro to my mind. I do appreciate the long stay given that he was clearly uncomfortable with it , he did an amazing job holding steady. Again great job.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

the guy in the chair is a very,* VERY *bad guy. A total psycho, totally pumped, ready to violently attack Chip or Geist at any moment.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I am not so sure that when they say that a German Shepherd should be versatile and a jack of all trades that they mean it should all be found in one dog. In one litter, maybe, one pup should be suitable for LE work, another for sport, and another as a guide dog, but not one pup capable of it all. One of the problems today is that many breeders have become specialized, breeding a breed within a breed, where entire litters are best suited for X or a similar venue to X, but not suitable for much else.


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> I just think many are beating a nostalgic dead horse. The GSD history is full of misinformation, one example of the founder being quoted as keeping his breed a working breed, yet an early foundation dog that all GSDs go back to, was touted as a genetic mutant and a gift- Roland von Starkenburg. He had a desirable type but was a nerve bag. The breed was developed as a specific herding breed and became promoted as a police/military dog and later as versatile dog/Jack or all trades but master of none. Then there was the split and valuable working genetics in both herding and as a police/military dogs were lost due to petty standard issues such as a lack of a black mask or slightly oversized, etc. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I think the emphasis should be on breeding healthy dogs that excel in both man work and detection. Not sport or show or guide dogs or agility or dock diving, etc. Just look at all the post with either temperament issues or owners unable to manage basic puppy challenges. My dog as a pup, was housed in an attached garage with a doggie door and had several acres to be on his own when left alone. He quickly learned to constantly knock over his water bucket. I screwed a metal bucket to a workbench leg and put another bucket with water in that bucket. Within a week. He tore the bucket and leg off the workbench. Then I went to bolting the bucket the the repaired workbench leg. He would come charging to me and my wife and knocked her on her ass multiple times by hitting her center mass. He has had hundreds or more hours of training and now is the perfect house dog. Come around the property and he shows overt aggression as in the van. His aggression is well managed and his obedience is at a high level, but he would have been rehomed at the least in a pet home, yet, he is my pet.


My boy was raised differently then yours but he is just as driven as any dog raised in a kennel yet can live in the house just fine. 
We have done many diff stuff and to you that’s not a good thing. I always say to people like that. Throw everything and anything at your dog and see how he responds. I do IPG and have also done PSA but trainer moved. Ozzy excelled in PSA but excelled in IPG as well. No need to water down something just because you don’t do it.


----------



## Lukas77

Speaking of genetic diversity and "saviour of the breed". There are some lines/dogs left that isn´t so influenced by the more popular dogs that been used the last 40 years or so(speaking from a workingline view). I suppose those dogs may also be of a better quality because they are more proven for various work and not "back yard breeder" if that means breeding with no working ability and healht checks for many generations. These dog for example are free of many popular sires that been used since the early 80s that we seen in so many dogs, ferro is in one dog but thats about it and once. 
Aspirant's Dekov

Karga Landets Yngve


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> @BigOzzy2018 the Oz man is an outstanding example of the versatility I and others are seeking. It should be easy to find in this breed. It should not require a degree to find a balanced stable dog that can and will do it all. And do it happily.
> @Rionel your girl is another great example. She is lovely to look at and your description speaks to a well balanced dog as well. Looking through her pedigree some may not see much but the end result is what matters. Perhaps someone smarter then us had a plan.
> @Chip Blasiole Your dog is lovely and kudos to you for putting the work in. A non threatening person playing with stuff in a chair should not require more then a cursory intro to my mind. I do appreciate the long stay given that he was clearly uncomfortable with it , he did an amazing job holding steady. Again great job.


Thank you


----------



## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Example


Is he Western working line?


----------



## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> early 90's, admixture of old black and tans, whites, black and silvers. No lance of fran jo, no highline, no ddr. The remnants of the type uncle sugar deployed to SE asia 25 yrs earlier. If I could find one today, I'd give it a try.


Since the other three grandparent branches are mostly titled dogs, I think there's a possibility someone was looking for infusion of something one way or another. Maybe it was a short lived endeavor that died out, or maybe it went to another breeder for similar interests. I really have no emotional stock in it one way or another, but was primarily interested to see the motivation for the pairings. Nikita was on the yard when I bought Rey, is a saddle back and looks like what Berno refers to. I would have taken her home instead of, or along with Rey had the lady wanted to sell her.

Sire/Dam: BigBear Paw/Zoe Juliet. (would have given my eye teeth for Big Bear Paw. and Zoe wasn't anything to be ashamed of)

Grandparents: Ben V Westendorf X Twinkle XXVI (sire side) and Yates from the Southland X Zimmerman's Nikita (Dam side)


----------



## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> @BigOzzy2018 the Oz man is an outstanding example of the versatility I and others are seeking. It should be easy to find in this breed. It should not require a degree to find a balanced stable dog that can and will do it all. And do it happily.
> @Rionel your girl is another great example. She is lovely to look at and your description speaks to a well balanced dog as well. Looking through her pedigree some may not see much but the end result is what matters. Perhaps someone smarter then us had a plan.
> @Chip Blasiole Your dog is lovely and kudos to you for putting the work in. A non threatening person playing with stuff in a chair should not require more then a cursory intro to my mind. I do appreciate the long stay given that he was clearly uncomfortable with it , he did an amazing job holding steady. Again great job.


I have to wonder about someone having a plan as well (or it could have been just good old fashion greed-lol). She is not trained for PPD as I have my own opinions about that. My job is to keep her healthy and me out of court. We live in such a litigious society. She really does have a ton of good attributes though. Her litter was exceptionally consistent and several went to LE work. Also, thank you. I've had worse : )


----------



## Sabis mom

Rionel said:


> I have to wonder about someone having a plan as well (or it could have been just good old fashion greed-lol). She is not trained for PPD as I have my own opinions about that. My job is to keep her healthy and me out of court. We live in such a litigious society. She really does have a ton of good attributes though. Her litter was exceptionally consistent and several went to LE work. Also, thank you. I've had worse : )


Maybe not a plan, but there is clearly a type going on and consistency says something. If siblings are working for a living there is definitely something there.
A good dog is a good dog.


----------



## Rionel

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes! Seeing eye dogs! GSDs can be awesome service dogs and what an honorable and important job.
> 
> It is not a job to be scoffed at, and why should we just give up because big programs use labs more?


Have to say I agree with that. German Shepherds offer much more as seeing eye dogs for the person who might get mugged. I also have to believe that greed comes into the equation from another side. It's much easier for providers to acquire some of the other breeds at a much cheaper price than a solid GSD. If I were blind and utilized a dog, it would be a GSD.

Just before we got Rey, I was in Target and a lady was walking a therapy GSD. She wasn't blind, but had a harness on the dog. But what got my attention was the dog's surveillance habits. I would look over at the dog and both ears would stand up while she eyed me intently. I'd turn my head and her ears would lie back douwn and she'd relax. Turn back and she'd eye me again and raise the ears. Very responsive, intelligent, discerning dog.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> Since the other three grandparent branches are mostly titled dogs, I think there's a possibility someone was looking for infusion of something one way or another.


that's what I'm after



Rionel said:


> We live in such a litigious society.


You seem like you have good dog sense so I bet she'll be just fine. There's heavy duty dogs right up close in your ped, but like Chip keeps saying, the nurture factor plays a HUGE role. Weak pups may be conditioned to bite readily in sport, and strong pups may be trained and socialized into fine family companions.

quick personal anecdote, early on the pup I'm currently raising nipped at my hand pretty good once, while I was releasing him. I was aware the bloodline is somewhat notorious for handler aggression, but I didn't want to believe it. He was so young at the time, so I wasn't expecting it, and I just wasn't ready. I didn't even react, I just released him and thought about it after the fact. The next time I released him I was more than ready to nip that little nonsense right in the bud, Bud!  Perhaps I exuded a stronger vibe? Perhaps I took a little firmer grip? Whatever the case, I still haven't found an opportunity to correct it because he _hasn't even thought about_ trying it again.

Stay on your toes, stay one step ahead. No need to be harsh, just be consistent. Nip the little things right in the bud, early and often. Don't let any little inappropriate behavior progress into a problem. Put the time and effort into puppyhood and the dog will thank you @ maturity.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The comment about my dog ignoring the guy in the chair shows a lack of understanding. You start out with the guy in the chair without a bitesuit. Dogs are very contextual. Put the guy in a chair in a suit and the dog’s drive to bite him increases exponentially. It is about baby steps.
My dog was not raised in a kennel. IGP has one judge on the field and there are no distractions, FCI sanctioned events have eliminated stick hits. There is very little pressure put on the dogs, so I consider IGP very diluted. Ozzy, what stress has be thrown at your dog? Bvds, the guy in the chair has run enough dogs in PSA trials that some of the rules were changed to soften the sport.
Rionel,
My dog is 100% working lines including West German, Czech and Slovakian dogs. He goes back to many of the great dogs in the breed including some of the early, real DDR dogs. I think he gets his head, bone, pigment and aggression from the backmassing from some of those DDR dogs. He is 26” and105 pounds and very agile. I don’t want a dog that can be around a family picnic. Dogs like that today are often like a slingshot compared to a gun.


----------



## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> that's what I'm after
> 
> 
> 
> You seem like you have good dog sense so I bet she'll be just fine. There's heavy duty dogs right up close in your ped, but like Chip keeps saying, the nurture factor plays a HUGE role. Weak pups may be conditioned to bite readily in sport, and strong pups may be trained and socialized into fine family companions.
> 
> quick personal anecdote, early on the pup I'm currently raising nipped at my hand pretty good once, while I was releasing him. I was aware the bloodline is somewhat notorious for handler aggression, but I didn't want to believe it. He was so young at the time, so I wasn't expecting it, and I just wasn't ready. I didn't even react, I just released him and thought about it after the fact. The next time I released him I was more than ready to nip that little nonsense right in the bud, Bud!  Perhaps I exuded a stronger vibe? Perhaps I took a little firmer grip? Whatever the case, I still haven't found an opportunity to correct it because he _hasn't even thought about_ trying it again.
> 
> Stay on your toes, stay one step ahead. No need to be harsh, just be consistent. Nip the little things right in the bud, early and often. Don't let any little inappropriate behavior progress into a problem. Put the time and effort into puppyhood and the dog will thank you @ maturity.


So you were releasing him to do bite work I take it? That would sound like a pretty game frustration level, you may have a police/PP dog there : ) Thanks for all the info/input on this thread.


----------



## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> The comment about my dog ignoring the guy in the chair shows a lack of understanding. You start out with the guy in the chair without a bitesuit. Dogs are very contextual. Put the guy in a chair in a suit and the dog’s drive to bite him increases exponentially. It is about baby steps.
> My dog was not raised in a kennel. IGP has one judge on the field and there are no distractions, FCI sanctioned events have eliminated stick hits. There is very little pressure put on the dogs, so I consider IGP very diluted. Ozzy, what stress has be thrown at your dog? Bvds, the guy in the chair has run enough dogs in PSA trials that some of the rules were changed to soften the sport.
> Rionel,
> My dog is 100% working lines including West German, Czech and Slovakian dogs. He goes back to many of the great dogs in the breed including some of the early, real DDR dogs. I think he gets his head, bone, pigment and aggression from the backmassing from some of those DDR dogs. He is 26” and105 pounds and very agile. I don’t want a dog that can be around a family picnic. Dogs like that today are often like a slingshot compared to a gun.


He's quite the dog. So, this isn't arguing or baiting but are you just of the mindset that you can't get those characteristics and still have a dog safe for family events? Or, is it that he just happens to be all business so to speak?


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## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> Bvds, the guy in the chair has run enough dogs in PSA trials that some of the rules were changed to soften the sport.


I'm really surprised to read you say that! I looked at a PSA 3 obedience video today and was super impressed. It sure looks like a lot of pressure to me.






PSA decoys are the best!! they're all nuts, and they really don't care 

I can't remember what it's called now, but the decoys were wearing KNPV suits, so I assume it was probably holland (?) where handler and decoys play musical chairs around tables, while the judges call the tune?


----------



## Rionel

Reply


berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm really surprised to read you say that! I looked at a PSA 3 obedience video today and was super impressed. It sure looks like a lot of pressure to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PSA decoys are the best!! they're all nuts, and they really don't care
> 
> I can't remember what it's called now, but the decoys were wearing KNPV suits, so I assume it was probably holland (?) where handler and decoys play musical chairs around tables, while the judges call the tune?


Sort of looks like our family picknicks! JK. Yeah that seem like plenty of pressure to me.


----------



## Sabis mom

Cool video. Kind of looks like a slow day doing patrols at the Stampede.




__





Calgary Stampede skyride 2002 - Search







www.bing.com





For two straight weeks the dogs were on those grounds providing back up for the Stampede security. Aside from the midway, fireworks, random livestock and beer tents.


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## Chip Blasiole

That video was six years old. Changes have been made because their dogs failed or were run either due to poor training or genetics. Really good handlers can use creative ideas to increase the likelihood of their dog’s success. That video makes IGP look like the special olympics. I don’t take credit for where my dog is in his training other than I have put the time in and like the saying goes, “ When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” I have been at this for at least thirty years and it has taken me this long to find the potentially right dog and the right training. I will see how far we can go. We always pay attention to detail and expose the dogs to much higher levels of stress they will see in a trial to increase the odds of success. The only thing made harder in the sport is that a dog has to pass two legs (trials) of a given level in order to advance to the next level.


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## Chip Blasiole

Regarding the stampede, there certainly a lot going on that could show a dog’s nerves but the complicated sequence of exercises is not there.


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## Bearshandler

@Chip Blasiole This is the dog from canczech? Don’t they use their dogs in movies? I’m not doubting your statement, but any dog who could do that or a psa 3 I think would be able to survive a barbecue. Maybe have to tell people to leave him be, probably not with kids, but I think you could manage.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> Regarding the stampede, there certainly a lot going on that could show a dog’s nerves but the complicated sequence of exercises is not there.


My point was that it is admirable to train a dog to perform, but realistically a good trainer can bury a lot of faults. The difference is that our dogs did not have that. There is no sequence to control reaction. There are shoulder to shoulder crowds, nasty drunks, clumsy kids, people stepping on them and dropping food everywhere and in all of that chaos they must keep focused on the job and be ready to detain and escort said nasty drunk off the property or help search for said clumsy child or help calm clumsy child's hysterical mother. They don't have months to learn a routine, because there isn't one.
You scoffed at the idea of GSD's doing guide work when in reality it takes a much better dog. A guide dog cannot be taught that this will happen and then that will happen, they must be able to adapt on the fly. A service dog does not get the benefit of knowing when or where things will go sideways, they need to roll with it. A patrol dog cannot be taught that in X building a human is going to pop out of a door right after we walk by it. And none of those dogs can do their jobs while adhering to strict obedience routines, all of those dogs will probably need to utilize intelligent disobedience at some point. Also note that all of those dogs share day to day life, kids and guests and picnics and barbeques. 
I am not trying to belittle sport training but rather point out that it is a sport in a controlled environment with rules and boundaries. A truly balanced dog is necessary for work.


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## Chip Blasiole

Unlike IGP, you cannot pattern train for PSA because you don’t know what the scenarios are. My dog would be fine at a barbecue and I would tell people to leave him be because he is not a Golden Retriever. Some Canczech dogs are on a movie set, currently the Apple TV series “See.” But all pups from a litter are different and they kept back a couple of pups that were likely better suited for a movie set and gave me the pick best suited for my goals which included man work.


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## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> The comment about my dog ignoring the guy in the chair shows a lack of understanding. You start out with the guy in the chair without a bitesuit. Dogs are very contextual. Put the guy in a chair in a suit and the dog’s drive to bite him increases exponentially. It is about baby steps.
> My dog was not raised in a kennel. IGP has one judge on the field and there are no distractions, FCI sanctioned events have eliminated stick hits. There is very little pressure put on the dogs, so I consider IGP very diluted. Ozzy, what stress has be thrown at your dog? Bvds, the guy in the chair has run enough dogs in PSA trials that some of the rules were changed to soften the sport.
> Rionel,
> My dog is 100% working lines including West German, Czech and Slovakian dogs. He goes back to many of the great dogs in the breed including some of the early, real DDR dogs. I think he gets his head, bone, pigment and aggression from the backmassing from some of those DDR dogs. He is 26” and105 pounds and very agile. I don’t want a dog that can be around a family picnic. Dogs like that today are often like a slingshot compared to a gun.


I understand what happens in PSA, I’ve done it with my boy. I still would be doing it if the trainer did not move no place to train with quality decoys where I live. I love the challenges it brings but because I’m doing IPG doesn’t make my dog any less of a dog. 
Also your choice not to bring your dog in a public place like a picnic. I choose to bring my boy in public places, he is rock solid not a slingshot as you say. The gun is loaded just my choice on when I fire when needed. He could care less about running up to people to say hi. He does not look at anyone for attention except me. We live an active lifestyle and Ozzy is a part of that life. IPG is not my whole world it’s just a part of what we do. Having a dog that can’t be in public or too aggressive in public is not what I want and too much of a liability but if I need him to protect he will. 
I will agree the GSD today does not have enough balanced aggression way to friendly weak nerves. Too many want a GSD but more of a lab personality which is not what a GSD should have.


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## Chip Blasiole

Any sport requires a degree of commitment. The sport doesn’t necessarily determine what the dog is and you would know best because of the different things you do with your dog. I just think IGP has become a poor test. Look at all the show line GSD’s that are titled and watch videos of them and you can see how easy the helper is on them. I saw one recently and the dog was run yet the judge rated him as recommended for breeding. PSA has its faults but is a much better test of a dog’s nerves and controlled aggression.


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## Jenny720

As a highly intelligent breed it is hard to see why they would not be versatile in today’s society with so many venues to choose from whether if one likes to compete or just train. There are many washouts for specific purposed bred dog in litters it is not that uncommon. Many specifics traits though can bleed into another purpose. It is easy though to see the split began the time of war with adding to the breed to get what was needed or wanted. Also it is interesting to see that the breed was plagued with the same health issues with all the inbreeding at conception that are still strong health issues today.

To say a German shepherd should not be able handle a family barbecue sound like the forever changing of the breed. To teach a dog to ignore something whether it be a man who is pretending to be a threat while engaged is cool to watch and fun to train but it is not as challenging as an unplanned event in the real world where the dog truly shows its worth. It is the first step though. Young dogs acting like ding dongs are not as uncommon as one thinks and innocent accidents are pretty common that equate to broken bones with larger dogs just ask the er. They are just not bragged about that’s the difference there you see. My first gsd was ddr in the 90’s. I had many barbecues my own surprise parties. Late night crazy parties he would just lay down in midst of it all and watch. He was a dog that can fight off real criminals and handle family parties in his hey days. He was trained bite For real and was a trained protection/police dog to boot. A German shepherd is not any less of dog because of they can handle a family party. To be viewed that as a nerve or confidence issue is quite disturbing and without that trait - clear brains and good nerves with healthy thresholds my opinion brings the balance and without it would change the breed into another. I would not want a German shepherd that has to be hidden away from the ongoings of daily life that to is just as demise to the breed as is a German shepherd without true protective instincts.


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## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> Any sport requires a degree of commitment. The sport doesn’t necessarily determine what the dog is and you would know best because of the different things you do with your dog. I just think IGP has become a poor test. Look at all the show line GSD’s that are titled and watch videos of them and you can see how easy the helper is on them. I saw one recently and the dog was run yet the judge rated him as recommended for breeding. PSA has its faults but is a much better test of a dog’s nerves and controlled aggression.


I was not referring to showlines and IGP completely different subject and no comparison. You have strong working lines in IGP as well as weak ones. Same goes for PSA, Ringsport etc. I have seen dogs from these sports be strong on the field yet be nerve bags unpredictable and fearful in public. They spin in the crate like a mad dog bite off tails etc. yet you don’t see me bashing this type of sport. it’s about having g a very well rounded dog that can be strong in any sport you do yet strong in the real world. I know what controlled aggression is and yes IPG has that also known as sec OB. Yes, IPG has changed not for the better as in any sport. It’s all about knowing your dog being honest with your dogs temperament. Training what you have in front of you and having fun. 
Chip, you choose what you want to do or not do with your dog but stop bashing other sports people do. You keep your dog isolated from the world your choice. but again no need to say dogs who do go in the real world are slingshots or less of a dog. I don’t make this comment often but I will now. How is your dog in the real world? Have you exposed him to many challenges in society? Can he walk up and down an escalator? Sit relaxed in a group of people as you converse? Many more I can ask but...... I exposed and still expose my dog to everything I can not because of lack of temperament but because I love to challenge him as much as he loves the challenge. 

I’m done commenting anymore because I get a bit irritated when people look down on others for things they do with their dogs. I just say put your money where your mouth is. 
Cheers


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Jenny720 said:


> As a highly intelligent breed it is hard to see why they would not be versatile in today’s society with so many venues to choose from whether if one likes to compete or just train. There are many washouts for specific purposed bred dog in litters it is not that uncommon. Many specifics traits though can bleed into another purpose. It is easy though to see the split began the time of war with adding to the breed to get what was needed or wanted. Also it is interesting to see that the breed was plagued with the same health issues with all the inbreeding at conception that are still strong health issues today.
> 
> To say a German shepherd should not be able handle a family barbecue sound like the forever changing of the breed. To teach a dog to ignore something whether it be a man who is pretending to be a threat while engaged is cool to watch and fun to train but it is not as challenging as an unplanned event in the real world where the dog truly shows its worth. It is the first step though. Young dogs acting like ding dongs are not as uncommon as one thinks and innocent accidents are pretty common that equate to broken bones with larger dogs just ask the er. They are just not bragged about that’s the difference there you see. My first gsd was ddr in the 90’s. I had many barbecues my own surprise parties. Late night crazy parties he would just lay down in midst of it all and watch. He was a dog that can fight off real criminals and handle family parties in his hey days. He was trained bite For real and was a trained protection/police dog to boot. A German shepherd is not any less of dog because of they can handle a family party. To be viewed that as a nerve or confidence issue is quite disturbing and without that trait - clear brains and good nerves with healthy thresholds my opinion brings the balance and without it would change the breed into another. I would not want a German shepherd that has to be hidden away from the ongoings of daily life that to is just as demise to the breed as is a German shepherd without true protective instincts.


Could not say it any better. Thank you 
I do see more and more GSD being way to friendly with very little protective instinct. Too many want the look of a GSD with the temperament of a lab. Hence breeders BYB and some well known breeders catering to those wants. Very sad to see.


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## berno von der seeweise

SAR folk say "train the dog 10X harder than you'll ever work the dog"

I never heard of canczech but I just watched a few of their videos, and now I got a tip for you, sensei 

without doubt, the following will be the most profound words I ever type on this forum:

the key to success as a working breeder occurs from appx 4 - 7 weeks old. Begin imprinting and conditioning litters @ wean. Start with a 4 week old puppy sized confidence course, which gradually increases in size to 5, 6 and 7 weeks.


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## MineAreWorkingline

And then you run into the issue of what is the dog and what is the imprinting/training. Of course it will most likely provide an edge for venues but it won't pass on genetically. Are most people, including breeders, savvy enough to tell the difference (all due respect to Tony/Canczech)? Breeding is tricky enough as is, mother nature can be whimsical. Many GSD breeders can't tell the difference between high drive and high energy.


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## berno von der seeweise

so what do you suggest?

imprinting and conditioning from wean to VPAT is as close to "the scientific method" as it gets

it's empirical

having now applied the method to ddr x newborn livestock I'm more sold than ever

can't hardly wait to wean a litter here. Most fun I've ever had without breaking any laws


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## MineAreWorkingline

What happens when the right stimulus presents that overrides imprinting and training? Or trigger stacking? All of which can surface years later. 

Ivan Balabanov recently said: "You can not change what is genetically present. You can only guide it. To guide it, you must know what reinforces it."

Michael Ellis believes that you buy the genetics of the parents of the litter. What it becomes after that is 70% on you.

How does one start with the right genetics if either the breeder doesn't know what is raising and training vs genetics and neither do you?

When I buy a puppy, I have preconceived notions of what to expect from that pup and I work with what I have. Of course I probably could strengthen some weaknesses with raising and training but do I want to? 

If the genetics are there, I should get what I want, at all times, with modest exposure and training. I can also get what I want if I put in more work in weak areas but will the end product be just as reliable? IMO, enhancing and suppressing the natural dog vs lots of imprinting and training is going to give me a dog that will perform more reliably when the poo hits the fan vs a lesser dog that is challenged that has not been provided the skillset to cope with a novel, back to the wall event.

To simplify, dogs without the right stuff can be trained to perform under a variety of circumstances but it is impossible to train under all circumstances. Then what?


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## Jenny720

I would just think it would help to see what puppy goes where and to see some of their capabilities. Not sure how much imprinting /training can be done to influence any unnatural talent in a such young puppy as it goes to its new home at 8 weeks. Many breeders have people come play with pups prior to going home that may help with some pups transitioning and others not or it does not change how social they are as pups or not. I can though can see how very talented breeders/ trainers can hide flaws in their adult dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise

On the other side of the pond, expose/imprint/condition litters is standard operating procedure. This is why _the very same ped _whelped over there outperforms every time, while nearly every every litter whelped over here under performs in comparison. It's not the feed, it's not the water, it's _breeders over here drop the ball_ from wean thru evaluation.

this is precisely why I'm so "_apparently overly confident_" about crossbreeding "_willy nilly_"


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## BigOzzy2018

berno von der seeweise said:


> On the other side of the pond, expose/imprint/condition litters is standard operating procedure. This is why _the very same ped _whelped over there outperforms every time, while nearly every every litter whelped over here under performs in comparison. It's not the feed, it's not the water, it's _breeders over here drop the ball_ from wean thru evaluation.
> Where do you have proof that nearly every litter here is not raised according to the other litters raised I’m guessing in a diff country.???? That’s pretty bold to say.
> 
> Ozzy was raised with some interaction as far as socializing, some toys outside time but nothing like what the others do. He turned out fine. That’s because he had the genetics to handle everything I threw at him at 9 weeks old when I brought him home.
> How a breeder raised a pup has no bearings on how they will be as an adult unless the breeder keeps all or most of the litter and do their own training. Genetics play a bigger roll
> this is precisely why I'm so "_apparently overly confident_" about crossbreeding "_willy nilly_"


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## MineAreWorkingline

When you consider that the basic exposure window closes @ 4 months, I think the breeder can have a strong influence on the puppy but it still won't change the underlying genetics. In essence, a weak puppy can be made to appear strong but without lifetime exposure and work, or exposed to a novel situation, the pup will most likely revert to being a weak dog while the strong pup can pull off a lifetime of strength with far less investment. I have four dogs raised in the country until slightly later than pups brought home earlier and exposed to the city life. The difference is remarkable to my eye and the timing was just a few weeks. Only one pup easily made the transition but he is genetically a very powerful dog. 

A breeder may drop the ball on exposure and imprinting but I don't think the same necessarily applies to the purchaser in the US.


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> When you consider that the basic exposure window closes @ 4 months, I think the breeder can have a strong influence on the puppy but it still won't change the underlying genetics.


 agreed



MineAreWorkingline said:


> the strong pup can pull off a lifetime of strength with far less investment.


I disagree and this is precisely my point.

2 "identically" strong dogs, same ped, different breeders. Specimen A exposed/conditioned properly from wean thru puppy eval, specimen B breeder fails to follow through. Same club, same trainer, difference @ 1 year will be night and day. This is why imports continue to outperform_ import genetics_ whelped on this side of the pond. It's the only difference.


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## Chip Blasiole

BO,
You saw the video of my dog a few feet away from an unsuited decoy in a chair taunting him and the dog ignored him. My point about IGP and show lines is that the exercises are the same and the sport has changed to accommodate the show lines. I don’t care what people do with their dogs but I can express my opinions.


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## Sabis mom

I had an old guy tell me once that when raising dogs you just throw it all in the water and see what floats.
I keep saying I don't train pups, but that isn't really true. I spend the first several months exposing, conditioning, luring and shaping. I actively avoid letting them fail and I encourage safe exploration. I never let behaviors I don't want develop and I don't allow situations that are out of my control.
Ideally this gives me a young dog that believes it is invincible and is sure it can do anything. Genetics absolutely show, but a solid foundation will overcome a lot.
I failed miserably with Shadow, I know that. I had no business trying to raise any dog at that point nevermind a genetic nightmare.


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## BigOzzy2018

berno von der seeweise said:


> agreed
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree and this is precisely my point.
> 
> 2 "identically" strong dogs, same ped, different breeders. Specimen A exposed/conditioned properly from wean thru puppy eval, specimen B breeder fails to follow through. Same club, same trainer, difference @ 1 year will be night and day. This is why imports continue to outperform_ import genetics_ whelped on this side of the pond. It's the only difference.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> When you consider that the basic exposure window closes @ 4 months, I think the breeder can have a strong influence on the puppy but it still won't change the underlying genetics. In essence, a weak puppy can be made to appear strong but without lifetime exposure and work, or exposed to a novel situation, the pup will most likely revert to being a weak dog while the strong pup can pull off a lifetime of strength with far less investment. I have four dogs raised in the country until slightly later than pups brought home earlier and exposed to the city life. The difference is remarkable to my eye and the timing was just a few weeks. Only one pup easily made the transition but he is genetically a very powerful dog.
> 
> A breeder may drop the ball on exposure and imprinting but I don't think the same necessarily applies to the purchaser in the US.


So your saying imports are better by this one example. Hmmmm


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> BO,
> You saw the video of my dog a few feet away from an unsuited decoy in a chair taunting him and the dog ignored him. My point about IGP and show lines is that the exercises are the same and the sport has changed to accommodate the show lines. I don’t care what people do with their dogs but I can express my opinions.


No need to get pissy. Mine can do the same friggin thing. You keep bringing showlines up and it’s to water down IGP because showlines compete in IGP. Enough is enough your sport is better ok now you win move on already.


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## Chip Blasiole

I don’t think I’m the one getting pissy or personal. At least you are no longer in denial that “my sport” is better.


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## BigOzzy2018

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t think I’m the one getting pissy or personal. At least you are no longer in denial that “my sport” is better.


Re read your post but whatever it’s your way or the highway on this forum. Guess what you don’t know everything nor are you right in everything. You also don’t get sarcasm do you, lol 
I can bash PSA as well but I choose to be the better sport


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> agreed
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree and this is precisely my point.
> 
> 2 "identically" strong dogs, same ped, different breeders. Specimen A exposed/conditioned properly from wean thru puppy eval, specimen B breeder fails to follow through. Same club, same trainer, difference @ 1 year will be night and day. This is why imports continue to outperform_ import genetics_ whelped on this side of the pond. It's the only difference.


Now you're being funny, right?

What about different pedigrees but same breeders, exposure, imprinting?

I have raised pups together from different pedigrees. I have raised siblings together. I have raised different breeds together. I guide the pup's development with an eye toward they must live in human society but I do it with a light hand offering plenty of opportunity to not only be just dogs, but to be their genetics. It's kind of a passion of mine.

I used to raise them in pairs. It wasn't very challenging so I started raising them in threes.

The bottomline, IME, despite the breeder imprinting them the same through evaluation, and raised the same by me, the young dogs in front of me, are very different. It's interesting to see the pups exhibit various traits of the parents each specifically to varying degrees.

The breeder of the three siblings is in Europe, titles her own bitches to ZVV3, and people bring their dogs to her for training for ZVV or else for her to put the titles on their dogs. She's not exactly a novice, nor is she an American.

On the other hand, I know of a breeder of sport dogs that sold her top sport prospect to a newbie to sport. She later had an experienced person purchase a pup from the litter. After that person evaluated the pups, they really wanted the sold puppy. The breeder stood firm and the buyer chose another pup. Guess what? A year later the two owners and pups would meet on a training field. The top sport prospect had been raised by a single mother with young children that valued manners... and had become a mediocre sport candidate while the pup raised by the experienced owner was ready to go, night and day.


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## Chip Blasiole

You are getting personal again. It isn’t easy being right all the time.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

we're getting a little far afield here...

canczechdogs

browse the canczech channel, note how much goes into their exposure/imprint/conditioning of puppies

my point, if you purchase and mate 2 canczech dogs expecting to get the same results from a litter whelped and weaned in your spare bathroom, you're going to be *sorely* disappointed

of course genetics are paramount (_nature_) but do not underestimate the importance of proper rearing (_nurture_) from wean to VPAT


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## MineAreWorkingline

I am very aware of Canczech and their program. 

I think what they do can strengthen a weaker pup, it is a great exposure plan. However, if you take two strong dogs from any breeding, and if the resulting litter is a strong litter, you will have a strong pup regardless of investment as long as some effort is made. The strongest dog I ever met was raised in a pen in an offsite kennel with his siblings until 14 weeks of age. He should have had no fear tattooed on his forehead.


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t think I’m the one getting pissy or personal. At least you are no longer in denial that “my sport” is better.


Your sport... is a sport, a game. And according to you has not prepared him for a barbeque. My dogs that did real world stuff attended barbeques and did not need a suit or a sleeve to show them what a threat was. So perhaps different people have different goals.
I like my dogs and want to include them in my life. I do not think of them as sporting equipment to be used.


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## berno von der seeweise

it has nothing whatsoever to do with strengthening weaker pups

it's about laying a solid foundation very early on for a lifetime of work

of course doing so separates the wheat from the chaff as well, but the main thing is setting the strongest ones in the bunch up for a lifetime of success






if you want to breed dogs like that you have to start them @ wean


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## MineAreWorkingline

Yes, and setting weaker pups up to present an appearance of success and therein lies the problem.


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, and setting weaker pups up to present an appearance of success and therein lies the problem.


 there's only one best in any litter, and it's hard enough to find that one an appropriate home

unscrupulous breeders who pawn weak pups off on experienced trainers don't stay in business long


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## MineAreWorkingline

I disagree. Whuda thot?

I personally got the best pup in a litter and so did a friend of mine! Good thing our criteria was not the same. I wonder what the other puppy buyers think about their pups.

I don't believe that an 8 or 9 week old puppy can necessarily be deemed weak. Sometimes, yes, but not always. A pup like that may blossom away from a litter or with maturity. Benchmarks for development are only guidelines with plenty of wiggle room.

I do agree that a good dog that meets my criteria would be hard to place.


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## Rionel

Interesting points all around for sure. This little booger ripped my forehead open with an open mouthed dive and I had several lacerations that bled and bled. She was relentless on play attacks and I like to never broke her of jumping at my face and snapping her jaws like a croc









She'd grab my 104lb male Collie by his main and shake him until he was thoroughly miffed, but I'd peel her off again and again until it was corrected. Right now, she is perfectly safe at any family event. Don't know if that makes her a mongrel or what, but she's not lost anything in protection drive. . I think what we do can matter a lot, but there's also a point when goals and genetics no longer match. I would hope dogs that seem too hard to be around family events are simply misidentified as having a lack of stability by the trainer. Sure, retraining may be warranted, but if a dog is nothing more than an unstable attack machine, it is a washout for me. I am starting to think our friends from the Canada have really balanced goals and dogs worth looking into.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Since bvds posted a link to the Canczech library on YouTube, here are videos of my dog’s sire doing a muzzle attack under a water fall and his paternal grandam doing civil work. Neither dog is titled and are the only dogs in five generations and beyond that are not titled. The closest line breeding on my dog is 3-3 on Tyson von der Schifflache.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Since bvds posted a link to the Canczech library on YouTube, here are videos of my dog’s sire doing a muzzle attack under a water fall and his paternal grandam doing civil work. Neither dog is titled and are the only dogs in five generations and beyond that are not titled. The closest line breeding on my dog is 3-3 on Tyson von der Schifflache.


The Grandam is quite impressive. The only thing I see different in her and my untrained female is that the woman in the video would not be able to hold onto Rey like that. When Rey has lit up it's all I can do to restrain her, and I'm just over 6ft and 212lbs. That's genetics and not training.


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## Chip Blasiole

But training would help.


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## berno von der seeweise

in other words that dog is trained not to pull hard on the "watch him" command and expects to be held back

I still can't find lackland's statement of work, but I remember they evaluated prospects using "get him" (bark/lunge/snap) and "hold him" (bite and don't let go)

lots of equidius in that ped, and karthago further back. I'd never even heard of canczech until this morning. I don't watch tv. 

Stunning dog, Chip!


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## berno von der seeweise

Rionel said:


> if a dog is nothing more than an unstable attack machine, it is a washout for me.


 She was only trying to get your attention. That was just her way of saying "get a tug toy and play the bite game with me"


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## Sabis mom

You all seem to see something in all these videos that I don't. The waterfall is an awesome ad, looks impressive.
Have any of you ever stood under a waterfall? It's slippery! Yet the person manages to throw the dog off repeatedly. Clearly all of these dogs target. They aim for what is presented -the sleeve or whatever. I see no real aggression and in some dogs not even much determination. In fairness I suppose it would be really hard to find decoys without the pads, lol.
And someone explain to me please how any of this relates to protection? I keep asking and no one ever answers!


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## Chip Blasiole

Part of the problem is that the majority of dogs are not taught to cap their drive. One thing Rionel could try is to put his dog on a short tie out and the dog only gets a bite on a wedge when the dog sits and is calm. Giving advice on line is pretty useless because there are too many unknown variables but what he is describing might have to do with genetics but training is how to shape genetics.


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## Chip Blasiole

Sabis,
Targeting is fundamental to bite mechanics. How many GSDs these days would even go under a waterfall much less engage? I have concluded you are a bit tarded when it comes to dogs


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## Sabis mom

Chip Blasiole said:


> Sabis,
> Targeting is fundamental to bite mechanics. How many GSDs these days would even go under a waterfall much less engage? I have concluded you are a bit tarded when it comes to dogs


Well, in all my years I have simply never had a dog that did not know how to bite, but I think the comments from the decoy that tested Sabs were something about full and hard? Not sure since I was chuckling over the hits like a train comment. I'm not sure how you have arrived at your assessment of my intelligence, but I would assume that perhaps you are dizzy from all that work in a ring. 
Just for your satisfaction though I will endeavor to find a waterfall and take my little Punk here for a stroll. See my dogs go everywhere and do everything with me so even if they had not seen a waterfall they would have the confidence in me to give it a whirl, plus I really like water and spend much time there.


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> But training would help.


Absolutely.


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## Rionel

berno von der seeweise said:


> She was only trying to get your attention. That was just her way of saying "get a tug toy and play the bite game with me"


Don't you know it!


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## Rionel

Chip Blasiole said:


> Part of the problem is that the majority of dogs are not taught to cap their drive. One thing Rionel could try is to put his dog on a short tie out and the dog only gets a bite on a wedge when the dog sits and is calm. Giving advice on line is pretty useless because there are too many unknown variables but what he is describing might have to do with genetics but training is how to shape genetics.


That's just it. I think the kind of bite work like shown in the video teaches a dog to linger, sit and make noise - up close and personal to a perp. It only offers the perp time to stab the dog. It's very unrealistic. Instincts, courage and discernment require no training. As long as we're talking shaping and not supplanting a dog's lack of instinct. That's a recipe to fail. I guess it's just the old bulldog guy in me, where I was used to dogs being born knowing how to be grippers. That's one thing I have to give to the Mals as well. They're natural grippers (or at least they have a history of being grippers).


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## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> You all seem to see something in all these videos that I don't. The waterfall is an awesome ad, looks impressive.
> Have any of you ever stood under a waterfall? It's slippery! Yet the person manages to throw the dog off repeatedly. Clearly all of these dogs target. They aim for what is presented -the sleeve or whatever. I see no real aggression and in some dogs not even much determination. In fairness I suppose it would be really hard to find decoys without the pads, lol.
> And someone explain to me please how any of this relates to protection? I keep asking and no one ever answers!


Have to agree in that it is much more like sport. I think the Chinese teach their GSDs to jump thru flames. That's a better deterrent. Water on a GSD is kinda like water and a duck. They love playing in it. No disrepect to the dogs or breeders in those vids- they're top notch looking. 

So I guess the adage might be "You can take the trainer out of sport, but you can't take sport out of the trainer"!


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## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> Your sport... is a sport, a game. And according to you has not prepared him for a barbeque. My dogs that did real world stuff attended barbeques and did not need a suit or a sleeve to show them what a threat was. So perhaps different people have different goals.
> I like my dogs and want to include them in my life. I do not think of them as sporting equipment to be used.


You know...I didn't want to say it but that's kind of how Chip has presented it here : )) I think Chip has a much smarter dog than he gives credit for.


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## MineAreWorkingline

@Chip, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't your dog’s sire on loan to the Czech police breeding program for a year?


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## MineAreWorkingline

All dogs bite? I hear that all of the time. My experience has shown me that very few dogs of any breed will do more than put on a show especially without training. 

Bite is genetic. It can be enhanced or suppressed with training but whatever grip a dog is born with is usually pretty close to what you will get.

It is not natural for a dog to hold and grip in a defensive or offensive fight. Such grips only sets the wolf / dog / jackal, etc., up for severe injury and infection. If that happens then the dog won’t be able to hunt or feed itself and ultimately won't survive or pass on its genes. A gripping bite flies in the face of self preservation under fight circumstances. The bite and release is a natural bite in a fight with an equal or superior. Anything else is selectively bred for by man.


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## Rionel

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All dogs bite? I hear that all of the time. My experience has shown me that very few dogs of any breed will do more than put on a show especially without training.
> 
> Bite is genetic. It can be enhanced or suppressed with training but whatever grip a dog is born with is usually pretty close to what you will get.
> 
> It is not natural for a dog to hold and grip in a defensive or offensive fight. Such grips only sets the wolf / dog / jackal, etc., up for severe injury and infection. If that happens then the dog won’t be able to hunt or feed itself and ultimately won't survive or pass on its genes. A gripping bite flies in the face of self preservation under fight circumstances. The bite and release is a natural bite in a fight with an equal or superior. Anything else is selectively bred for by man.


No need to conflate. I never said that natural grippers bite and never let go. That shows you subscribe to misconception. Natural grippers do bite and only let go to get a more advantageous bite, and of course the trained ones of shepherd variants are able to out. I see it in Shepherds, Mals and others. But I was speaking to genetics and not this over emphasis of training. Some of the comments here seem to state that a person's dogs fur only grows because the trainer commands it to grow. Then in the same breaths they claim there's nothing decent left in the entire German Shepherd breed, unless speaking of their dog that can't be allowed to attend a family event. For heaven's sake watch Megan Leavey if you need a real world example.

I also NEVER said "All Dogs Bite".


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## Rionel

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Chip, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't your dog’s sire on loan to the Czech police breeding program for a year?


That means nothing, other than the breeder hoped there is something in Chips dog worth repeating. I saw Chips rudimentary videos of his monster and they're just plain embarrassing.


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## Bearshandler

What I see in that video is a version of a bark and hold. It sounds more prey driven then defense to me. The point of that command was't for the dog to actually attack the man, based on what they were saying. There are other videos of the sire that look a lot more impressive with everything that's going on in my opinion.


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## Rionel

Bearshandler said:


> What I see in that video is a version of a bark and hold. It sounds more prey driven then defense to me. The point of that command was't for the dog to actually attack the man, based on what they were saying. There are other videos of the sire that look a lot more impressive with everything that's going on in my opinion.


Thank you - I will absolutely look at them. I'm searching for a male. I appreciate your not attacking me. I'm new to the GSD over the last three years and absolutely love them over other working breeds I have owned and bred. I'm am in no way new to working dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Rionel said:


> That means nothing, other than the breeder hoped there is something in Chips dog worth repeating. I saw Chips rudimentary videos of his monster and they're just plain embarrassing.


Thank you for the enlightenment. I had no idea that the Czech police breeding program could have just as easily randomly chose pound puppies as a foundation for dogs to work alongside their law enforcement.


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## dogma13

_Take your disagreements to private messaging if you're unable to be polite and respectful.First and last warning.Time outs are next._


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## MineAreWorkingline

...


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All dogs bite? I hear that all of the time. My experience has shown me that very few dogs of any breed will do more than put on a show especially without training.
> 
> Bite is genetic. It can be enhanced or suppressed with training but whatever grip a dog is born with is usually pretty close to what you will get.
> 
> It is not natural for a dog to hold and grip in a defensive or offensive fight. Such grips only sets the wolf / dog / jackal, etc., up for severe injury and infection. If that happens then the dog won’t be able to hunt or feed itself and ultimately won't survive or pass on its genes. A gripping bite flies in the face of self preservation under fight circumstances. The bite and release is a natural bite in a fight with an equal or superior. Anything else is selectively bred for by man.


Absolutely agree. Probably why actual protection dogs are not taught to bite and hold, or I guess I should say they are given the freedom to adjust or redirect? First of all my dog is not protecting me if it's away from me and second in the event of more then one attacker the dog is useless if it is locked onto attacker number one. There is a time for a grip and a time for a bite. 
Most of my German Shepherds needed fairly minimal direction to turn them into adequate deterrents and that's all most people need. All of my patrol dogs came from one line, except Sabs, and the line was selected for its working ability. That said, again, none required the training to do their jobs as much as the obedience and conditioning to do it properly. Understand that patrol dogs aren't at heel more then occasionally and it's never a focused heel, none of my dogs would hold a stay if someone was approaching me but would move to heel position roughly. Our bite control certs involved someone actually grabbing me and there is no command, the dog responds to a threat and depending on the exercise is either called off or releases on it's own when the attacker moves back. We also did a scenario where I was approached in a doorway that required the dogs to hold the person/people at bay while I got the door unlocked for us to enter. Sometimes it involved a bite, more often positioning and growling/barking. We needed to prove control of our dogs and they needed to prove stability and discernment, so sometimes a person running up behind me proved to be a friendly stranger returning a forgotten wallet, or something. Decoys discretion I guess, one year they tried to drag me out of a car! Generally a handful of staged scenarios, twice a year, plus the obedience portions.


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## MineAreWorkingline

1


Chip Blasiole said:


> Since bvds posted a link to the Canczech library on YouTube, here are videos of my dog’s sire doing a muzzle attack under a water fall and his paternal grandam doing civil work. Neither dog is titled and are the only dogs in five generations and beyond that are not titled. The closest line breeding on my dog is 3-3 on Tyson von der Schifflache.


Chip, although we don't always agree, I just want to say that I do appreciate the depth of research that you do, often up front and personal, and your willingness to share that information with us.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Absolutely agree. Probably why actual protection dogs are not taught to bite and hold, or I guess I should say they are given the freedom to adjust or redirect? First of all my dog is not protecting me if it's away from me and second in the event of more then one attacker the dog is useless if it is locked onto attacker number one. There is a time for a grip and a time for a bite.
> Most of my German Shepherds needed fairly minimal direction to turn them into adequate deterrents and that's all most people need. All of my patrol dogs came from one line, except Sabs, and the line was selected for its working ability. That said, again, none required the training to do their jobs as much as the obedience and conditioning to do it properly. Understand that patrol dogs aren't at heel more then occasionally and it's never a focused heel, none of my dogs would hold a stay if someone was approaching me but would move to heel position roughly. Our bite control certs involved someone actually grabbing me and there is no command, the dog responds to a threat and depending on the exercise is either called off or releases on it's own when the attacker moves back. We also did a scenario where I was approached in a doorway that required the dogs to hold the person/people at bay while I got the door unlocked for us to enter. Sometimes it involved a bite, more often positioning and growling/barking. We needed to prove control of our dogs and they needed to prove stability and discernment, so sometimes a person running up behind me proved to be a friendly stranger returning a forgotten wallet, or something. Decoys discretion I guess, one year they tried to drag me out of a car! Generally a handful of staged scenarios, twice a year, plus the obedience portions.


I think the bite and hold makes the dog too much of a target. A lot of these thugs are so high that even when the dog gets a good grip in a sweet spot, it doesn't even slow them down.


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## Chip Blasiole

MAW,
The sire of my dog’s sire was sent back to the Slovakian Police who have their own breeding program.


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## Rionel

chrissvoboda said:


> You have NO idea what you are talking about.


Show me clinical studies of how genetics work them. I'm all about education and you seem to be the expert.


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## dogma13

Kudos to the members who are 'adulting' and able to disagree respectfully.It's not always easy.Thank you.


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## Jenny720

Only just to clarify there are organizations that choose specific chosen shelter dogs /pound pups and fund, train and donate them to departments to become police K9’s. Some are dual purpose dogs and some are single purpose dogs. Some of these organizations in addition from shelters also purchase dogs from breeders who breed specifically for police K9’s and train and donate them. It’s certainly not the majority way of how police departments get their K9’s but it is a way.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think most of those organizations provide dogs to police departments that are inadequately funded.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm really curious as far as, for lack of a better term I guess, "consensus" among the gsd breeder community regarding exposing/imprinting/conditioning litters from wean thru 7 week evaluations. I know, for sure, it's standard operating procedure with all sorts of other "working" breeds. Not at all limited to police/protection type programs, but applicable to everything from bird dogs to livestock guardians.

The idea that a very accomplished, say "elite" gsd trainer/handler or whatever, may prefer to evaluate completely green litters is not entirely devoid of merit in my mind (I guess?) but I assume that_ has to be _the exception rather than the rule. It's* most certainly* the exception in my neck of the woods, but I'm curious about everywhere else now? 

anybody care to weigh in? there's really no right or wrong answer so don't be shy. I'm just looking for opinions.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm really curious as far as, for lack of a better term I guess, "consensus" among the gsd breeder community regarding exposing/imprinting/conditioning litters from wean thru 7 week evaluations. I know, for sure, it's standard operating procedure with all sorts of other "working" breeds. Not at all limited to police/protection type programs, but applicable to everything from bird dogs to livestock guardians.
> 
> The idea that a very accomplished, say "elite" gsd trainer/handler or whatever, may prefer to evaluate completely green litters is not entirely devoid of merit in my mind (I guess?) but I assume that_ has to be _the exception rather than the rule. It's* most certainly* the exception in my neck of the woods, but I'm curious about everywhere else now?
> 
> anybody care to weigh in? there's really no right or wrong answer so don't be shy. I'm just looking for opinions.


I can see both sides. I have raised litters of working dogs and litters of fosters from unknown backgrounds. I do imprint, I was a horsewoman first. I had to bottle feed a litter from a mom that was so aggressive and uncontrollable that we deemed it necessary for the pups to be separated. I did huge exposure/conditioning with them and we still ran into some temperament issues as they matured, oddly with the softer pups.
I see both sides and I think both have merit. Perhaps it depends on many things and I do believe that it has the potential to bury genetic weaknesses until something pushes the right button.


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## David Winners

Nothing replaces genetics IMO. Take Fama as an example. Dutch KNPV GSD. Complete animal when I got her. Just wanted to fight because it was fun. Loved to punk people out. Handler aggressive. 

It's all she was ever shown.

4 months into our relationship, she was externally a very different dog. A year in, no one believed she was the same dog. Her work only got stronger through this process. This was in Afghanistan with a high op tempo, doing real work against armed men.

In retirement, she was the best family dog. Solid everywhere. Great with kids. Great with strangers. Still had it when challenged or when someone shady came around. Her genetics prevailed. I allowed her to be the real Fama. She was exposed to a partner instead of someone holding the leash and picking up poop.

My new pup is from strong herding lines. He's incredibly biddable and loves to work with me, whatever I'm doing. He's also absolutely fearless. A do anything and everything kind of dog so far. Love it!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Berno, I would also be curious as to whether the puppy buyers want a puppy that has been imprinted vs a blank slate barring mild exposure especially if the buyer is contemplating breeding themself. 

I know of two breeders / competitors that wants their puppies at six weeks, or younger, because they feels that they want to imprint the puppy their way. I think "their way" can be keywords to discourage a breeder from imprinting.


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## Jenny720

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think most of those organizations provide dogs to police departments that are inadequately funded.


I would imagine so since the dogs are $30,000 to $50,000 after training and is proven to be a success. A win win for the dogs, the department and people of the town as they would be without otherwise.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Unless it was an organization like Brad Croft's Universal K9 that was well paid to utilize shelter dogs by a breed specific lobbying organization. He was known to pull the old bait and switch promising the disadvantaged police departments breeds generally used in this venue but supplying the unexpected. He also got tied up in misappropriation of government funding and other fraudulent acts that caused the demise of the program and bought some jail time for him. Now all of the drug busts by his "trained" shelter dogs are under scrutiny. What's that old saying? You get what you pay for?


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## Jenny720

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Unless it was an organization like Brad Croft's Universal K9 that was well paid to utilize shelter dogs by a breed specific lobbying organization. He was known to pull the old bait and switch promising the disadvantaged police departments breeds generally used in this venue but supplying the unexpected. He also got tied up in misappropriation of government funding and other fraudulent acts that caused the demise of the program and bought some jail time for him. Now all of the drug busts by his "trained" shelter dogs are under scrutiny. What's that old saying? You get what you pay for?


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## Jenny720

Nope the organizations that have been used Succesfully for many years. The entire point was police departments have used shepherds that have been pulled out of shelters. You get what you pay for was an old saying which today does not always ring true but yes I would summise the old owners who abandoned the dogs that make into the K-9 unit are at dismay as to what the dogs are truly worth. Great opportunity for these dogs that gratefully someone can see more then what others would see. 



K-9 Top Cops - Shepherds Hope Rescue







__





Working Dog Program | German Shepherd Rescue of New England, Inc.






gsrne.org













Dog who was abused then rescued from animal shelter becomes K-9


JUNCTION CITY, Kan. — A German shepherd who was rescued from an animal shelter in Kansas is now a crime-fighting pup. According to a post on the Geary County Sheriff’s Department Facebo…



fox8.com


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## MineAreWorkingline

Universal K9 was very "successful" until they were busted.


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## Jenny720

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Universal K9 was very "successful" until they were busted.


It still does not define other organizations. There are 4 German shepherds that are called the pound puppy posse that were taken out of shelters and became members of the police department.
They gained the respect of the entire Philadelphia K-9 unit. Good lives these dogs will have. Good things.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Good! G


Jenny720 said:


> It still does not define other organizations. There are 4 German shepherds that are called the pound puppy posse that were taken out of shelters and became members of the police department.
> They gained the respect of the entire Philadelphia K-9 unit. Good lives these dogs will have. Good things.


Good! Glad that they were a success and that the program operates with integrity.


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## berno von der seeweise

I’m not disagreeing now, so please don’t nobody here take it that way. These are only my own opinions/observations. I won’t bottle feed pups, and I won’t let a pup go prior to 49 days old. According to my observations, a pup needs that exposure to his dam and littermates in order to develop properly. In my observation it is critical to wean cold turkey as soon as half the litter gets into a dam’s bowl @ feeding, and critical to allow pups to interact with each other while bonding to humans over the next appx 3 weeks. I may very well observe different in the future? Gsd, and more specifically ddr gsd, may bloom a little earlier? We’ll see here?
Again, I’m neither criticizing nor disagreeing with anyone, but strong herding line litters are almost certainly exposed to significant environmental stimuli during those aforementioned appx 3 weeks. I don’t disagree those stimuli may make the underachievers appear better than they really are, but I will say those stimuli lay an important foundation for the best in the bunch.
I’ve reared litters both ways, let’s call it “hands off” and “hands on.” The difference was so remarkable, my “hands on” program only intensified with every litter. With the recent addition of a ddr gsd sire here, I'm taking my my “hands on” program to next level, beyond beyond, “hands on version X-11.11” Anybody tells me they wouldn’t want one, I say “good! ‘cause _YOU_ can’t have one. Don’t even look at them. In fact, don’t even _think about_ looking at them! HA!” 









It occurs to me we’re coming up on the 19th anniversary of uncle sugar deploying k9’s to afghanistan. That's a mighty long time. More than long enough to found any number of working bloodlines. I realize such landrace types aren’t much to look at, but those locally adapted genetics only get fed with good reason. That’s a hard scrabble life, right there. I hope somebody, somewhere, is at least attempting to exploit such genetic resource’s for the good of gsd (et al).
Historically, real pastoral type was selectively bred white. For over a century now gsd diaspora has been introduced globally by various militaries, via gsd nuclear DNA. So when you see modern non white pastoral landrace type it’s a pretty safe bet there’s probably some long lost gsd sire, somewhere back in the ped. I know first hand from working with other breeds, when you outcross and backcross that sort of thing, the best in the bunch often has a tendency to “throwback” to some good old type.
















here again, no right or wrong answer so don't be shy, but I am the only one who sees... let's just say what appears to be _more than just gsd _expressing in some working line imports nowdays? I'm not attempting to impugn anyone's integrity with this. Quite the opposite in fact. Being a_ fanatic disciple _of rational breeding,* I applaud it!* 









With all that said, as far as getting what you pay for, my gsd was free, and at this time I have no plan to buy another. I would, but I’m just not finding want. If anybody happens to read this who still keeps that old fashioned usa byb black and tan/white/black and silver "perlich" type, by all means PLEASE message me privately. I have no use for papers, and I’m more interested in type than the pedigree.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Please don't view a disagreeing opinion based on variable experiences as anything negative. What a boring world this would be if we all viewed things the same. Learning could be brought to a standstill. 

Berno, let me ask you something since you keep pups until day 49. Personally, I have never owned a bitey puppy. The rare pup that did bite me was treated to my hand over his upper muzzle pressing his lips into his teeth to chew on. That usually resolved the issue on the first attempt. A repeat procedure was very rare. 

I asked a friend / trainer / competitor / breeder who has two toddlers whether he found puppies to be bitey with the kids, and if he did, what did he do to stop it?

His response was that most puppies that bite that much generally are removed from the mother and siblings too young. He prefers to get his own puppies at 12 weeks and to sell puppies at 10 to 12 weeks. He believes that 1) the puppies need that time with their siblings and 2) the puppies when left with their siblings longer outgrow the landshark phase much faster. I am not saying I agree or disagree with this. 

I am curious as to your thoughts on the theoretical landshark phase. I personally call it theoretical because I don't believe it exists but I don't know what people are doing to create this behavior in puppies.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am curious as to your thoughts on the theoretical landshark phase. I personally call it theoretical because I don't believe it exists but I don't know what people are doing to create this behavior in puppies.


Can I voice my thoughts?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Can I voice my thoughts?


Absolutely! Everyone has different experiences and I am sure that there are many causes. I seriously would love to hear them.

Heck, even as kids, GSDs were very popular and many families had them and they didn't chew on us kids no matter who raised them. If a puppy of any breed did landshark, they would have gotten a swat or two a few times as that behavior was not tolerated toward children.


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## Sabis mom

I fostered one litter, got them minus mom at around 4-5 weeks, that I referred to as the **** spawn pups. They were so awful I wore gloves and boots. Seriously they bit anything that moved, fought like gladiators and got into anything! It lasted about a month and a steady routine of redirection and removal was applied. Not one would bite by the time they went home. I believe the loss of mom played a key roll, even Sabi got tough on them.
Beyond that one litter, I never had most of the issues I hear about with or without mom. Puppies bite and chew and chase. That's normal, but these horror stories I hear seem odd to me.
I raise all pups essentially the same. I discourage or ignore behavior I don't like. I keep things firm, fair and consistent. I provide stimulation for body and brain. And always, love and affection. 
I agree, it's theoretical. I believe it is caused by equal parts of unreasonable expectations, inability to stick to a plan and lack of natural outlets.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Lack of natural outlets...I think that can play a key role.


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## Sabis mom

I wish everyone getting a puppy could watch a litter at play. See what really goes on. I think it would shift a lot of peoples perspectives. It is so normal and healthy for them to roll and wrestle and chase. Explore things, chew on things, climb on things. It always makes me a bit sad when people brag about how many commands their 12 week old puppy has learned, or how they have a perfectly behaved 16 week old. Puppies should be monsters! They need to get into stuff and tumble around.


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> Can I voice my thoughts?


for cryin' out loud, Sabis mom! you are the _yin_ to the _yang_ around here.

Without you, we'd be _all_ _yang_ 










In my experience the best biter @ wean often proves to be the most outgoing, stable, confident pup in the bunch come VPAT (appx 3 weeks later). Between wean and VPAT, littermates train said _over achievers_ (aka "landsharks")not to bite inappropriately. When he/she bites too hard, the puppy play comes to a screeching halt. They just walk away. They ignore. They exclude the “landsharks” from their puppy games until he/she learn proper puppy play manners.
During that time, from wean to VPAT, I direct/develop/encourage/praise bites on the reizangel, springpole, various toys, tugs, rags, balls, etc. Beyond bites I’m evaluating sound sensitivity, training basic obedience commands, leash training, retrieves, exposing variety of surfaces, obstacles, inclines, heights, tunnels, ladders, water, anything I can conjure. The key to all this is A) don’t push too hard, just let them come along at their own pace, or not, and B) frequent but _time limited _exposure yields the best results.
In other words if you just leave a see saw and spring pole @ wean, the litter will get bored with it after a day or 2. But if you introduce a few springpoles and position a few see saws directly under them for an hour at a time, several times daily: PUPPY PANDEMONIUM ENSUES!! And that’s what it’s really all about. Positive stimulation, let them process and develop naturally.
As days/weeks go by, I present progressively bigger challenges, with an eye on the ones exhibiting drive. Week 5 I’m exposing pups to progressively more challenging confidence courses, and I don’t deny the under achievers do their best to keep up with the over achievers. So yeah, there is some artificial “strengthening” going on; but most important to remember throughout it all, either a pup “wants to” or it doesn’t, and there’s no “fixing” drive. It’s either there, or it isn’t.
In all honesty day 49 is a little early for my inhouse genetics. Up ‘till now mine have done significantly better on day 51 or so, and people with protection goals like to get the best biters home ASAP. Now, with the infusion of ddr gsd nuclear dna here, day 49 is pretty standard. Time will tell. 8 weeks (day 56) is, or at least was, fairly universal among usa gsd breeders prior to german reunification.
Most adolescent “landsharks” IMO just need a regularly scheduled outlet for those drives. Not a big deal. Direct it in a positive way. Play tug for 10 minutes daily. Reinforce that behavior. Hopefully it’ll sink in and click if ever, heaven forbid, the need should arise. Better yet, bring a bitey pup back to me for free training sessions. Let’s see what we’ve really got on the end of that leash.
I’m sure this will be perceived by some here as “controversial” but there is such a thing as a fault in temperament so egregious that it merits elimination. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I know some here are firmly entrenched in the belief that _every darling puppy is sweet and just needs love and understanding_, but respectfully I assert that belief is ultimately false. True in most cases absolutely yes, but if you’ll please pardon my pun, I’ve had _first hand_ experience with exceptions to the rule.

Long as I’m gettin’ all high and mighty here, there’s another old expression comes to mind: “use it or loose it.” For many generations gsd breeding selection was determined by SchH. It’s hard wired into the breed. IMO a good gsd should _naturally_ target the arm and at maturity demonstrate an ability to calmly wrap it’s jaws AROUND a full size trial sleeve like no other breed. This is not to say gsd shouldn’t train_ beyond _that. Only that in order to properly evaluate the gsd bite, you have to put it on a big boy sleeve. Failure to select for that ability will quickly result in it’s loss. FAR too many "working line" gsd grip a sleeve like bsd nowdays...


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## David Winners

Are you insinuating that Mals bite shallow?


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> Long as I’m gettin’ all high and mighty here, there’s another old expression comes to mind: “use it or loose it.” For many generations gsd breeding selection was determined by SchH. It’s hard wired into the breed. IMO a good gsd should _naturally_ target the arm and at maturity demonstrate an ability to calmly wrap it’s jaws AROUND a full size trial sleeve like no other breed. This is not to say gsd shouldn’t train_ beyond _that. Only that in order to properly evaluate the gsd bite, you have to put it on a big boy sleeve. Failure to select for that ability will quickly result in it’s loss. FAR too many "working line" gsd grip a sleeve like bsd nowdays...


When selecting pups, my boss always said "pick the one with attitude, because you can train it down but you can't train it up."
I think he actually meant that you can teach a dog that has it to control it, but you can't teach a dog that doesn't have it to have it. Training up may be acceptable in a competition but when the dog is responsible for getting you home, it better be the real deal.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Are you insinuating that Mals bite shallow?


I'm not_ insinuating_ anything. Bsd (et al) breeding selection (bite suit) resulted in an entirely different bite than gsd breeding selection (full size sleeve). Bsd received no points for calm, no points for quiet, and no points for big grip; whereas gsd received points for all of the above. A gsd is _not supposed to be_ just an oversized mal with bad hips...



Sabis mom said:


> Training up may be acceptable in a competition but when the dog is responsible for getting you home, it better be the real deal.


Even the real deal needs to be trained to open it's mouth like a crocodile. That doesn't come naturally. You have to cultivate it. Failure to selectively breed for it will result in it's loss. Scrolling google images just now, it appears to be fading fast...


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm not_ insinuating_ anything. Bsd (et al) breeding selection (bite suit) resulted in an entirely different bite than gsd breeding selection (full size sleeve). Bsd received no points for calm, no points for quiet, and no points for big grip; whereas gsd received points for all of the above. A gsd is _not supposed to be_ just an oversized mal with bad hips...
> 
> 
> 
> *Even the real deal needs to be trained to open it's mouth like a crocodile. That doesn't come naturally. You have to cultivate it. Failure to selectively breed for it will result in it's loss.* Scrolling google images just now, it appears to be fading fast...


What? Nurture or nature?


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## berno von der seeweise

perhaps a bit of both? I don't mean to nit pick, it's just that historically it's always been a hallmark of the breed, and in practice it's quite effective. The well trained gsd does not maul.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> perhaps a bit of both? I don't mean to nit pick, it's just that historically it's always been a hallmark of the breed, and in practice it's quite effective. The well trained gsd does not maul.


I see it differently. The GSD was selectively bred away from a propensity to "maul". It didn't make for a good farm dog.


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## berno von der seeweise

you lost me again, but no matter. I can't claim to speak for the sv, or the professionals @ lackland, or the sport community. Maybe the breed is morphing? evolving into something other than what I remember?









I'm just a fossil. I speak for the dinosaurs.


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## Chip Blasiole

Genetics always extremely trump nurture. I heard of a Mal that spent the first two years of his life entirely in a barn and when tested was stellar. Do you think Einstein of Jordan were great due to nurture. Training always has an influence. The obsessive focus on a sleeve grip in IGP leaves so much to be desired. A pushing bite on a suit trained correctly teaches a dog how to fight as opposed to winning the prey of a sleeve. But again, genetics can be masked by training and vice versa. You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken poo.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> you lost me again, but no matter.


Pot, meet kettle.


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm not_ insinuating_ anything. Bsd (et al) breeding selection (bite suit) resulted in an entirely different bite than gsd breeding selection (full size sleeve). Bsd received no points for calm, no points for quiet, and no points for big grip; whereas gsd received points for all of the above. A gsd is _not supposed to be_ just an oversized mal with bad hips...
> 
> 
> 
> Even the real deal needs to be trained to open it's mouth like a crocodile. That doesn't come naturally. You have to cultivate it. Failure to selectively breed for it will result in it's loss. Scrolling google images just now, it appears to be fading fast...


Let's just say our experience differs. I don't get my information from Google pics.


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## dogma13

This is an excellent and interesting discussion.The more different perspectives, experiences,and spirited disagreements the better!I think quite a few members(me included) are always open to reading about other's insights and theorys.
We are articulate and capable of vehemently disagreeing without resorting to name calling.Everyone should feel comfortable to contribute without being ridiculed for having a unique viewpoint.


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## David Winners

I guess it could be argued that the Mals I have worked have been trained to have deep grips. I have no mal puppy experience, just green dogs, primarily bred for military work.

Deep grips are highly valued in KNPV and military testing.


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## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I guess it could be argued that the Mals I have worked have been trained to have deep grips. I have no mal puppy experience, just green dogs, primarily bred for military work.
> 
> Deep grips are highly valued in KNPV and military testing.


David I have two questions, if you don't mind.
Dogs specifically bred for military work, what differences are they breeding for? Or is it just a quality thing?
And also Mals vs. GSDs . I have only worked one Mal. He was brought in fully trained. I liked him but found the energy level exhausting over a 12 hour shift. He seemed to be on the verge of jumping off a ledge constantly. Is that typical, in your experience?


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## David Winners

I can't answer your first question because I have no sport mal experience.

The Mals I have worked have incredible prey drive, incredible athletic ability, are generally handler soft until mature, and recharge very fast. They have very good pattern recognition and are super easy to train to do anything. They have almost no off switch and typically come with some almost neurotic behaviors that are "cute" but a pain to deal with sometimes.

I would like to see more GSD in police work because they typically settle better in the patrol vehicle. They are also more situational in their aggression. They think.

Mals are perfect for military work where they may have multiple handlers over their career. They work for their toy more than their handler.

Just my experience talking here. These are very broad generalizations and every dog is an individual.


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## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> The Mals I have worked have incredible prey drive, incredible athletic ability, *are generally handler soft until mature*, and recharge very fast. They have very good pattern recognition and are super easy to train to do anything. They have almost no off switch and typically come with some almost neurotic behaviors that are "cute" but a pain to deal with sometimes.


Yikes!

Do you think that may be more of a result of training and handling?


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## David Winners

Those dogs live in kennels and come out to bite stuff. I imagine that if raised to be in the house, things would be somewhat different.

Again, this is speculation.


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## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Those dogs live in kennels and come out to bite stuff. I imagine that if raised to be in the house, things would be somewhat different.
> 
> Again, this is speculation.


I guess we are going to find out the hard way.


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## Sabis mom

@David Winners thank you! I am always curious. Lol. Over 15 years I had 4 assigned dogs, including Sabi, and worked a number of our "spares". The first 3 averaged 2 years with me and were all GSD. I liked the working style. 
I will comment that I noted no issues with bite "style" but our dogs weren't biting everyday either since the objective of their use was to ensure we could do our jobs safely.
Sabs would neither work for nor defend anyone but me, so there is that. She also was not a working dog in one sense, since the only motivator seemed to be defense of me. Which she was deadly serious about.
I like Mals but maybe not as work partners. I think it might be great fun to have one just to play with. 
Your comment about settling in the vehicle was sort of exactly my issue with the one I worked. It's tiring.


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## berno von der seeweise

I’m talking about gsd* breeding selection* here.

SchH was only a qualification. In terms of training, SchH was only intended to be… like a tenderfoot merit badge. Not a competition, but a certification. An evaluation of the dog’s strengths and weaknesses, designed to serve as a guideline for potential mating partners. For example a sire with marginal nose might be mated to dams with exceptional nose, in hopes of improved offspring. This is how the breed was developed, and how it was refined, until finally, once upon a time, it stood totally unchallenged by any other breed. Head and shoulders above the rest. In addition to breeding selection, SchH also served as “qualification” for further training, and the very best biters were sent on to postgraduate bitesuit school.

KNPV developed/refined some very respectable breeds in it’s own right, but gsd wasn’t one of them. Unfortunately I still can’t find the statement of work pdf, but I’m perfectly confident lackland continues to procure new dogs on a sleeve, and there too, it only serves as qualification for further training.






Look, ok, I’m the first to admit sv don’t even take themselves seriously anymore…










but out here in the nethermost reaches of the private sector, the full calm committed correct gsd bite still has it’s place

*Chip Blasiole
Banned*
Joined May 3, 2013
1,246 Posts

wait a minute? what? you banned Chip?

Your Honor, if you’ll please allow, I’d like to assure the court my client would never either_ knowingly_ or _deliberately_ violate this forum’s standards of decorum, etiquette, or terms of service. Somebody must have hacked his account. There was some sort of technological glitch. An accidental cross posting intended for some other forum. A mixup. A typological error. He was momentarily confused. Somebody slipped him a mickey. He didn’t mean to. It’s only a misunderstanding. He formally apologizes to the entire forum wholeheartedly. #freechipblasiole


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## MineAreWorkingline

😮 #freechipblasiole!


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## dogma13

@berno von der seeweise sometimes things are said and done that you didn't read.We are not going to discuss these things.Please get back on topic now.


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## berno von der seeweise

spanked_ again_... I only hope Your Honor isn't keeping a scorecard on me...

well, since _I'm the one_ who's been slingin' the mongrel card around, here he is









near 7 months old









He sure is a funny looking thing? may as well be an altogether different breed from the gsd I used to know? He's got 7 white hairs on his chest, and to me that suggests crossbreeding. Prey drive so low I can't imagine any mal in his ped. Dsd maybe?

nobody here to hold the camera today, but I'll get a legit pose when he's full grown, and I won't be tuckin' no toe of my boot under his hock when I do...

this thing is wolfy. Brushy tailed, musky smell. No shy sharp. He only started lifting his leg about a month ago, and since then the coyotes keep more distance. My place is fenced into paddocks so I worry that makes things a little confusing. I don't want to "patrol" anybody else's place with him until I'm sure he has a clear understanding of what's his vs what isn't. So far I've kept him as social as I'm able and he's fine. My postmen lady (postlady? postal lady? postperson?) has a highline female and she's deadset on giving him a try. She was a tremendous help and he's wild about her.

longjaw, low stop, flat forehead, just like I like. Somewhat slight of build IMO, surprisingly fleetfooted, big booming bark that he doesn't use without reason. Impressive low growl and you can feel the electricity coming up the leash when you flip his switch. Broke the needle off my bitepressure meter a long time ago.

I tell him somebody or their dog is ok and that's it. He remembers. He doesn't get chummy, but he doesn't act threatened or stressed. There's really only been one new person he just didn't like, and that clown offered me dope last time I saw him, so good call,_ jellymo! _Just to be clear on that, it's none of my business what substances consenting adults choose to ingest in the privacy of their own lives. I just ain't havin' any of it here on my place. No offense intended toward those who choose to partake, please.


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## Sabis mom

He's a cutie! Bud sort of looked like spare parts until he was nearly 2. Heavy bone, giant head, skinny body and massive feet. Grew into this though. Think he was 8 or 9 in this one. 









As to the mail carrier person(I don't know either) I had a great guy that brought all my pups treats. I have the weirdo dogs that love the posties and greet them like old friends.


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## David Winners

Generally speaking, MP dogs are only trained on sleeves. There are other flavors of military dogs that train on full suits, but typically not at Lackland.


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## Shadow Shep

Sabis mom said:


> @David Winners thank you! I am always curious. Lol. Over 15 years I had 4 assigned dogs, including Sabi, and worked a number of our "spares". The first 3 averaged 2 years with me and were all GSD. I liked the working style.
> I will comment that I noted no issues with bite "style" but our dogs weren't biting everyday either since the objective of their use was to ensure we could do our jobs safely.
> Sabs would neither work for nor defend anyone but me, so there is that. She also was not a working dog in one sense, since the only motivator seemed to be defense of me. Which she was deadly serious about.
> I like Mals but maybe not as work partners. I think it might be great fun to have one just to play with.
> Your comment about settling in the vehicle was sort of exactly my issue with the one I worked. It's tiring.


I would love to play with a Mal.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Shadow Shep said:


> I would love to play with a Mal.


Play yes, just don't fall asleep if they aren't crated or you might wake up to this:


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## Shadow Shep

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Play yes, just don't fall asleep if they aren't crated or you might wake up to this:
> 
> View attachment 561347


I hear the horror synthesizer. Isn't it a synthesizer that makes that sound?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Not sure of what sound you are referring to.


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## Shadow Shep

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not sure of what sound you are referring to.


It's played in horror movies sometimes. There goes my funny moment 😔. 

What do you guys think about this dog Etzel von Oeringen (Strongheart) (1917)


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> View attachment 561344


See what I mean? _That_ looks like a real gsd. Even from a mile away. he’s *ICONIC!*

nobody ever squinted at him and said "what kind of dog is that? he looks part wolf"



David Winners said:


> Generally speaking, MP dogs are only trained on sleeves. There are other flavors of military dogs that train on full suits, but typically not at Lackland.


if it’s good enough for MP it’s _way more than_ good enough for me. My uneducated guess is probably something along the lines that, after one too many too violent apprehensions, some dogs probably require reassignment to postgraduate bitesuit school



Chip Blasiole said:


> The obsessive focus on a sleeve grip in IGP leaves so much to be desired.


 I agree prey x bitearm may cause a dog to appear stronger than he really is, but unless you’re deploying to afghanistan, trying to compete in protection sports, trying to select breeding stock for either or, isn't making the dog look as strong as possible_ supposed to be _the goal?

ultimately now I like to think lackland's _bare minimum entry score_ is my own training finish line. Come, sit, stay on command, grab the arm on command, endure a little light padded agitation, out on command, and we’re done here.

I find this elementary formula really helps a dog deal with the stress of perceived 2 legged threats. It teaches him how to behave, whats expected of him, and basically conditions him to “fear no evil because you win the bite game every time.” Repeat the exercise until the dog has it down, and he’ll independently come to your side and calmly wait for a game whenever opportunity is perceived.
I’ve pushed harder with other genetics and was very fortunate in terms of the resulting liability my doing so created. Be careful what you wish for. Especially with gsd because it’s _supposed to be _encoded in the dna. 

_postscript:_ I'm aware that very few people are able to keep target ranges conveniently situated midway between their coffeepot and their keyboard  and some say sound sensitivity is a growing concern. It occurred to me just now that combining the afore mentioned disciplines (marksmanship + dog training at the same location) could very well be a billion dollar business model? wonder if any insurance company would cover that one?  

_ postscriptum scriptum:_ nothing against bsd/dsd, they’re just_ supposed to be_ altogether different breeds.


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## MineAreWorkingline

How are they supposed to be altogether different breeds when they are all herders with the same herding style? Even talk about similar roots and cross breeding rumors abound?


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How are they supposed to be altogether different breeds when they are all herders with the same herding style?


"herder" in that context is highly subjective, but in a word, breeding selection. The foundation stocks didn't remain static throughout development of the breeds, nor did the breeds themselves after standardization, as is evidenced in the case of gsd by the historical va list. Bsd/dsd enthusiasts may answer the rest much better than I.

as far as crossbreeding, yes. With enough geneflow, all 3 breeds would inevitably bleed into one.

Population science 101: You and I split the seeds from a single tomato. I take mine up north, short season, cold, wet. You take yours down south, long season, hot, dry. I select early, cold tolerant, you select long season, heat/drought tolerant. Just 3 or 4 generations we will observe RADICAL phenotypical variation from not only the parentstocks, but even more so from each other's resulting offspring.

artificial selection works the same way with dogs, especially wherever inbreeding and/or linebreeding is employed (see; _punctuated equilibrium_)


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> If it’s good enough for MP it’s _way more than_ good enough for me. My uneducated guess is probably something along the lines that, after one too many too violent apprehensions, some dogs probably require reassignment to postgraduate bitesuit school


No. That's not how it works. Top tier dogs are selected to go into SOF or other programs.

There is no "too violent" an apprehension. Sending your dog is the last step before lethal force. 

Contrary to popular belief, bite training is rarely about actual biting. It's about experience for the dog and control for the handler. Programs like SOF select dogs fora multitude of characteristics. Biting is definitely not the deciding factor.


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## berno von der seeweise

according to very reliable sources, patrol dogs forced to fight too real, too many times, may become unsuited (_too aggressive_) and therefore reassigned



David Winners said:


> Sending your dog is the last step before lethal force.


I definitely agree dog should be trained "non lethal" in the private sector

edit: with _very few_ exceptions










since you're the professional, you tell me, does this look like prey to you?


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> "herder" in that context is highly subjective, but in a word, breeding selection. The foundation stocks didn't remain static throughout development of the breeds, nor did the breeds themselves after standardization, as is evidenced in the case of gsd by the historical va list. Bsd/dsd enthusiasts may answer the rest much better than I.
> 
> as far as crossbreeding, yes. With enough geneflow, all 3 breeds will inevitably bleed into one.
> 
> Population science 101: You and I split the seeds from a single tomato. I take mine up north, short season, cold, wet. You take yours down south, long season, hot, dry. I select early, cold tolerant, you select late season, heat/drought tolerant. Just 3 or 4 generations we will observe RADICAL phenotypical variation from not only the parentstocks, but even more so from each other's resulting offspring.
> 
> artificial selection works the same way with dogs, especially wherever inbreeding and/or linebreeding is employed (see; _punctuated equilibrium_)


Are you comparing the adaptive product of evolutionary forces / natural selection, to man's selective manipulation / intentionally designed products?


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> See what I mean? _That_ looks like a real gsd. Even from a mile away. he’s *ICONIC!*
> 
> nobody ever squinted at him and said "what kind of dog is that? he looks part wolf"


I have to say thank you. I called him my handsome prince. He was the end of his line and I, sadly, lacked the smarts to do anything with him. He suffered early, prolonged and severe abuse that ended all hope. 
Of note, there was a temperament instability in that line that required knowledge. 
He is the dog whose partial pedigree I posted a few comments back. Dams side to the best of my knowledge was DDR, which would make him DDR and Czech? I think.
Either way, my best guy.


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## LuvShepherds

@MineAreWorkingline That knife wielding Mal should be in a haunted house movie. That is one scary dog, LOL.


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you comparing the adaptive product of evolutionary forces / natural selection, to man's selective manipulation / intentionally designed products?


Artificial selection is _light years_ faster than natural selection, again, especially wherever inbreeding/linebreeding is employed. Gsd is a wonderful example because for the most part it's so well documented.



Sabis mom said:


> Bud sort of looked like spare parts until he was nearly 2. Heavy bone, giant head, skinny body and massive feet. Grew into this though. Think he was 8 or 9 in this one.
> View attachment 561344
> 
> 
> As to the mail carrier person(I don't know either) I had a great guy that brought all my pups treats. I have the weirdo dogs that love the posties and greet them like old friends.


that iconic type is so ingrained in the popular psyche, even at great distance, the overwhelming majority of scavenger predators simply move on in search of an easier score


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> @MineAreWorkingline That knife wielding Mal should be in a haunted house movie. That is one scary dog, LOL.


Lol. First time I ever had a dog pull a knife on me!


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## David Winners

I'm just going to excuse myself from this conversation.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> Artificial selection is _light years_ faster than natural selection, again, especially wherever inbreeding/linebreeding is employed. Gsd is a perfect wonderful because for the most part it's so well documented.


But you have to start with variation in order to cultivate specifics. You can't get out what isn't there to begin with unless Mother Nature throws a mutation into the mix.


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## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I'm just going to excuse myself from this conversation.


Don't go! I learn stuff.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> I'm just going to excuse myself from this conversation.


 that would only be my loss 

did you catch the part about combining firing range and dog training facility in the same commercial venue? 

If anybody could pull that off, it's probably you


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> But you have to start with variation in order to cultivate specifics.


there's wide variation in every litter

the well defined various types of gsd we observe today are not the results of random mutations

they are the results of artificial selection x linebreeding


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## MineAreWorkingline

I know that. But you initially were speaking about one single tomato plant.


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know that. But you initially were speaking about one single tomato plant.


 actually, just one single tomato

let's call it hektor


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## Sabis mom

Here is an interesting story. A big yellow stray wandered about the area for years. He bred about every female he could get to. Purebreds, mutts, he was not picky. 
He was of known origin, had belonged to an old guy from the area. GSD/collie, built like a smooth collie, four white socks, white chest, white blaze on his face and white tip on his tail. Tipped ears. 
Regardless of what he bred the male pups looked exactly like him. Even more interesting though, his sons produced male pups that looked identical. So regardless of the bitches traits all male offspring looked identical. Yellow smooth coat collie crosses. But here is the truly odd part, the female offspring no matter the cross were easily identifiable as GSD crosses. AND carried pricked ears. 
I would have loved to see the genetics involved in that! 
Yes we had a stray dog problem.


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## berno von der seeweise

story time!










At the dawn of the kennel club/pedigree dog fancy, little over 100 yrs ago, the first mass marketed breed was the airedale. They sold pups mail order and shipped them by rail all across north america. Couldn’t breed them fast enough to keep up with market demand. The next big breed boom was created with the strongheart films, and once again pups were dispersed far and wide across the continent. Then came the lassie films, and collie was added to the mix. With the birth of television, rin tin tin and the lassie series infused additional doses of collie and gsd to the genepool, and the resulting type was fixed. The “great american landrace” which emerged from that genetic jambalaya persisted well into my youth, and purportedly, even right up to this day as the “english shepherd/farm collie.” Although I personally contend modern examples are_ markedly softer _than those of old.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Are you saying that the English Shepherd is a mix of Collie, GSD and Airedale?


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## berno von der seeweise

it was in the beginning, but that was long before anyone coined the name "english shepherd"

with the name "english shepherd" came a lot of border collie and australian shepherd genetics


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## Shadow Shep

Breed History


English Shepherds are descendants of the Shepherds' dogs of England and southern Scotland. This group also gave rise to modern "show" Collies and Border Collies. English Shepherds differ from their...



www.englishshepherd.org


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## berno von der seeweise

I have no further comment on the es


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> There is no "too violent" an apprehension.


re-reading I think I picked up on a miscommunication, so I'll try to reword more accurately

I'm told that too many, too violent criminals may eventually render a good police dog unsuitable for use in general public


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## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> re-reading I think I picked up on a miscommunication, so I'll try to reword more accurately
> 
> I'm told that too many, too violent criminals may eventually render a good police dog unsuitable for use in general public


I suggest you ask whomever told you that about it.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> re-reading I think I picked up on a miscommunication, so I'll try to reword more accurately
> 
> I'm told that too many, too violent criminals may eventually render a good police dog unsuitable for use in general public


I think that any working dog can sour. There is a balance to working a dog, like a good recipe too much of one ingredient can ruin it just as too little of an ingredient can. But first and foremost you need the right start. With so many police departments so badly underfunded you sometimes see things that shouldn't have happened. The wrong dogs, the wrong handlers, the wrong training, inadequate oversight and lack of continual training.
It's really just that simple. 
You could buy a pup from supreme herding stock, give it no exposure and no training, turn it loose with a flock and what will happen? Well, it could muddle through and it may even experience some success, but it has no foundation so enough waps by that one nasty sheep and either the dog snaps and takes revenge or it says screw you, you get the **** sheep!


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## MineAreWorkingline

I see merit to this. The dog doesn't always win and sometimes takes quite a beating.


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## berno von der seeweise

over the years I've heard tell of several. The last was reassigned dept of corrections as a cell extraction dog. supposedly at least.


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## MineAreWorkingline

That's not exactly what I was thinking.


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## berno von der seeweise

I don't know quite what to think about it? I mean what to you tell a handler when some city bean counter decides his partner is too much of a liability?


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't know quite what to think about it? I mean what to you tell a handler when some city bean counter decides his partner is too much of a liability?


That's nothing new.


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## berno von der seeweise

I'm looking at this again here and I'm still just blown away! You know  _not for nothin'_, Your Honor, but Chip intends to earn a PSA3 with his new dog, and it looks like he may just have the genetics and the decoy to make it happen? His doing so would be quite a service to the breed at large... just sayin'...


----------



## Nscullin

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm looking at this again here and I'm still just blown away! You know  _not for nothin'_, Your Honor, but Chip intends to earn a PSA3 with his new dog, and it looks like he may just have the genetics and the decoy to make it happen? His doing so would be quite a service to the breed at large... just sayin'...


Does he have the genetics though? I think there’s one psa 3 gsd. A nick son bred to a tom daughter... does he have those genetics? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## berno von der seeweise

Nscullin said:


> I think there’s one psa 3 gsd.


I heard about one. I think I remember everybody yappin' obama @ the time, so it's been at least 5 yrs ago. No idea if there's been another since?



Nscullin said:


> Does he have the genetics though?


State sponsored east european breeding program (slovak), so to be perfectly candid about it, IMO that's a very good question? I don't get the impression they're trying to breed sport dogs over there. I think Chip mentioned no sport titles in his ped for 3 generations? 5 generations? Something like that? But Chip's been training for decades, and I'm told his decoy is somewhat notorious, so... I personally have faith he can and will do it.


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## Amshru

berno von der seeweise said:


> I see both sides of the coin. Like Chip keeps saying about "low heritability" and I keep saying "there's a best in every bunch." One man's trash is another man's treasure. There's a wide variety of temperaments in every litter. That's what the* volhard puppy aptitude test* is for.


This is a great piece of info. Wish I'd had it 4 months ago lol


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## berno von der seeweise

berno von der seeweise said:


> Even the real deal needs to be trained to open it's mouth like a crocodile. That doesn't come naturally. You have to cultivate it. Failure to selectively breed for it will result in it's loss. Scrolling google images just now, it appears to be fading fast...


 these are the best grips I've found, and I've been hunting hard









eye sockets well forward of the jaw/jute









outstanding!

I don't have a facebook, but this is where I found it: https://www.facebook.com/feuergartengsd


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:
I see both sides of the coin. Like Chip keeps saying about "low heritability" and I keep saying "there's a best in every bunch." One man's trash is another man's treasure. There's a wide variety of temperaments in every litter. That's what the* volhard puppy aptitude test* is for.

You touched on an interesting topic. I don't raise pups exactly like you, you don't raise them exactly like the guy down the way.
No two people train exactly the same, no two dogs are identical. As fond as some folks are of studying genetics, which are important, I contend that nurture is as important as nature. I maintain that no two people will get the same results. 
I used to barrel race. I had a competitor who claimed that I only beat her because I had a better horse. She whined to Daddy until he caved and bought her the horse she wanted. I bought her old horse, and beat her with him. She had the better horse, she also had no clue how to make a horse want it more. 
My first assigned patrol dog was notorious for mauling handlers. He was supposed to deter me. He was AMAZING! He had the breeding, had the training, but no one had ever figured out how to make him want to work. He needed a partner. He needed someone to who wanted him, not just the dog in kennel 8. No one except my boss had ever played with him, rubbed his belly, scratched his ears and no one had ever called him on his crap. There was nothing that big oaf wouldn't do for me. We had a highly successful couple of years and everyone wanted him, he rocked.


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## Bearshandler

I think of it like building a house. The genetics are the bricks or materials you have to work with. A terrible builder with the best material is still going to build a terrible house. A great builder can still give you a pretty good house with terrible materials, but even he needs something to work with. An experienced builder is also going to have his preferred materials that he does his best work with. Having the right genetics is important, otherwise you’re putting a hard cap on what you can do. I also believe after a certain point the genetics stop being what’s most important and it all comes down to training. The higher the level you want to perform at, the longer those genetics will matter. A big part of it is matching the dog to the handler and training style.


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## Bearshandler

As for feuergarten, I’m a big fan of what she has going on. She’s constantly working with her dogs.


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## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> As for feuergarten, I’m a big fan of what she has going on. She’s constantly working with her dogs.


I really like her dogs. Carma is so awesome, and stunning as well.


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## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I really like her dogs. Carma is so awesome, and stunning as well.


I’ll need someone new to train with if I move back to Tennessee next year, so I’ve been doing some due diligence in clubs and people with pretty good dogs. I think we may be hearing a lot more about her boy Dante in the future, a dog out of Carma obviously. Carma is pretty accomplished bitch, something you don’t see enough of if you ask me. A lot of the girls meet the minimum and start pumping out the money makers, but she’s been able to strut her stuff.


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## Sabis mom

Bitches often come down to a timeline. A breeder has a finite amount of time in which to breed a bitch, and life gets in the way. 
I think a lot of times, because breeders have lives to, they get a bitch to a minimum title and she is showing huge potential but they are running against a clock if they want to breed her. 
I am understanding about that. To a point. Maybe the bitch has no potential, that's a different issue. But it's basically the same reason so few bitches ever get put to work. If we want the genetics then we need to keep them for breeding.
You have the issue of heats as well, and some bitches go through huge temperament shifts when in heat which can impact their ability. It's something a man might not understand, no offense to any men, but there are days when they just got nothin left.
And Murphy's law says that trial is going to happen when she's in heat.
Carma is an outstanding bitch. And I have no doubt that there is more to come from that source.


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## berno von der seeweise

The _OUTSTANDING_ grip illustrated on pg 16 is product of nurture. That big of a bite doesn’t just come natural, you have to cultivate it. Not every gsd has the makings. Meanwhile some other breeds/individuals do. Relatively speaking it takes a long jaw, low stop, flat skull. All gsd correct points once upon a time, but near as I can see the highline seems to have drifted away from that type now?

In terms of working females and breeding selection, the hardest working females don’t often make the best dams. There appears to be a trade off between working drives and maternal performance. This is not to suggest anyone shouldn’t give it a try by any means, only that doing so often proves to be the end of that maternal line. In such cases you may get a good male offspring out of it nonetheless.

My own obsessive focus with population science and pedigrees is primarily about biological sustainability. When I see wall to wall performance titles behind sire and dam, I assume it’s a good bet some of the offspring may title as well. Tracing the lines back to foundations, trying to determine who goes back to who and all that, is more about attempting to locate/identify potential genetic diversity in a breed. While on the one hand I’m obviously the biggest ped freak in the bunch here, on the other hand I am equally obsessed with crossbreeding, if not more so. I say again, nothing whatsoever against bsd/dsd here, I’m just not getting into that game myself.

I never completely lost interest in the breed and casually browsed available litters all along, but apparently not enough to realize just how prevalent “working type” became among pet/companion breeders until recently. In this part of the country at least. I swear I’m seeing a lot of black lab expressing in said pet lines hereabouts now. I suppose from a color genetics standpoint that may make sense? I don’t know anything about dog color genetics and frankly I don’t want to, for fear such knowledge may subconsciously taint my own selections.










I have _nothing whatsoever_ against lab retriever either. I imagine, in the right hands, outcrossing/backcrossing low prey ddr gsd x proven working lab may produce good results? Just because lab genetics don't reflect _my own_ breeding goals doesn't mean I dismiss that potential out of hand. I expect we'll only see more "flop eared" type express in working lines for years to come.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> The _OUTSTANDING_ grip illustrated on pg 16 is product of nurture. That big of a bite doesn’t just come natural, you have to cultivate it. Not every gsd has the makings. Meanwhile some other breeds/individuals do. *Relatively speaking it takes a long jaw, low stop, flat skull.* All gsd correct points once upon a time, but near as I can see the highline seems to have drifted away from that type now?
> 
> In terms of working females and breeding selection, the hardest working females don’t often make the best dams. There appears to be a trade off between working drives and maternal performance. This is not to suggest anyone shouldn’t give it a try by any means, only that doing so often proves to be the end of that maternal line. In such cases you may get a good male offspring out of it nonetheless.
> 
> My own obsessive focus with population science and pedigrees is primarily about biological sustainability. When I see wall to wall performance titles behind sire and dam, I assume it’s a good bet some of the offspring may title as well. Tracing the lines back to foundations, trying to determine who goes back to who and all that, is more about attempting to locate/identify potential genetic diversity in a breed. While on the one hand I’m obviously the biggest ped freak in the bunch here, on the other hand I am equally obsessed with crossbreeding, if not more so. I say again, nothing whatsoever against bsd/dsd here, I’m just not getting into that game myself.
> 
> I never completely lost interest in the breed and casually browsed available litters all along, but apparently not enough to realize just how prevalent “working type” became among pet/companion breeders until recently. In this part of the country at least. I swear I’m seeing a lot of black lab expressing in said pet lines hereabouts now. I suppose from a color genetics standpoint that may make sense? I don’t know anything about dog color genetics and frankly I don’t want to, for fear such knowledge may subconsciously taint my own selections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have _nothing whatsoever_ against lab retriever either. I imagine, in the right hands, outcrossing/backcrossing low prey ddr gsd x proven working lab may produce good results? Just because lab genetics don't reflect _my own_ breeding goals doesn't mean I dismiss that potential out of hand. I expect we'll only see more "flop eared" type express in working lines for years to come.


This head?


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## berno von der seeweise

not a great photo/pose above, but at a glance certainly looks far more correct than the highline










I don't even know _what _to think about this? looks like? akita or something? no idea?










at any rate the topic is good study of "nature vs nurture" because correct gsd bite requires* both *correct structure and solid training



















until last night I was 100% confident my pup would illustrate THE best gsd grip on the internets someday. Today I'm forced to come to grips with the fact that I may have to settle for 2nd place...

a tie, at best, because a gsd bite just don't get no better than that...


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think grip extends far more into genetics than just structure while training has much less of an impact.


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## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think grip extends far more into genetics than just structure while training has much less of an impact.


genetics = structure, and if you want your dog to bite that good you have to start it early, and often


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> genetics = structure, and if you want your dog to bite that good you have to start it early, and often


You can't get out what isn't there to begin with. You can only enhance or diminish genetics.


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## Sabis mom

I may be wrong but I think to some extent biting is vehemently discouraged in a good percentage of pups. So you may end up with the folks who get a pup and then go hey I have a GSD I will do bitework when the pup is bigger. By that point you've taught it NOT to open it's mouth. So you have dogs trying to overcome a year of conditioning.
I know that when raising pups to work as patrol dogs we were to actively encourage some behaviors not generally encouraged in pets. 
But I'm not very smart so I could be way off base. I know we had to correct Sabs bite a bit and once we explained it she had zero issues with it.


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## MineAreWorkingline

It's not a matter of will they bite but how they bite. Grip is primarily genetic.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It's not a matter of will they bite but how they bite. Grip is primarily genetic.


I agree. What I was pondering is if some dogs that would have genetically good grips don't show that because of conditioned hesitance to do so.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> I agree. What I was pondering is if some dogs that would have genetically good grips don't show that because of conditioned hesitance to do so.


I would think so.


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## berno von der seeweise

make no mistake, lesser bites get the job done everyday










I just prefer BIG bites 










in practice it doesn't matter because when bad guy resists the dog, handler is supposed to take over


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## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> But I'm not very smart so I could be way off base.


 I'm operating under the assumption you handled a patrol dog _professionally_

if indeed that is the case, you are *an authority* when it comes to such matters


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## MineAreWorkingline




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## MineAreWorkingline




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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> make no mistake, lesser bites get the job done everyday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just prefer BIG bites
> 
> View attachment 561429
> 
> 
> in practice it doesn't matter because when bad guy resists the dog, handler is supposed to take over


Big bites tend to be preferred to reduce damage and liability. It is not unusual for a better dog to have a lesser grip, depending on your definition of "better".


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## MineAreWorkingline

"... it takes a long jaw, low stop, flat skull."

Let me see you nurture a Saluki for an outstanding, big bite.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm operating under the assumption you handled a patrol dog _professionally_
> 
> if indeed that is the case, you are *an authority* when it comes to such matters


I don't know if professional is a word that would ever be applied to me! 

But according to me I am an authority on everything, so there is that.
Yes I was employed and trained as a dog handler, yes I was required to be certified and prove that I should be on an ongoing basis. 
But I was initially hired and trained for executive protection and since I was trained for both my dogs had some pretty unique jobs and fewer bites then some of the my co workers just due to the nature of the jobs. 
I got to hang out in better neighborhoods, lol.


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## berno von der seeweise

MAWL, I've seen sighthoundy type skulls give_ a very good showing of themselves_ on a full size trial sleeve, but they were a little more substantial that the example you provide above






I kind of like this dog


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## MineAreWorkingline

But were they Salukis? They have the skull construction. You said after that it's nurture.


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## berno von der seeweise

they were not purebred, but had some very close saluki relatives in their peds

you do not want a sighthound clamped onto your arm. trust me. I've been there


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## Sabis mom

__





Saluki Hunting - Bing


Find high-quality images, photos, and animated GIFS with Bing Images




www.bing.com





Not sure a Saluki would have an issue


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## berno von der seeweise

I wouldn't stick my hand in there...


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saluki Hunting - Bing
> 
> 
> Find high-quality images, photos, and animated GIFS with Bing Images
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure a Saluki would have an issue


Transferring that bite to a human is a whole other ballgame.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> they were not purebred, but had some very close saluki relatives in their peds
> 
> you do not want a sighthound clamped onto your arm. trust me. I've been there


I suspect it was not the Saluki blood that was responsible for a grip on a human.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Transferring that bite to a human is a whole other ballgame.


True but they are a hunting dog and not as fragile and prissy as they appear.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> True but they are a hunting dog and not as fragile and prissy as they appear.


I never presented them as prissy. I presented them as a breed that possessed the proper skull type that Berno stated was all the genetics a dog would need in order to be nurtured to an outstanding, big bite on a human.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never presented them as prissy. I presented them as a breed that possessed the proper skull type that Berno stated was all the genetics a dog would need in order to be nurtured to an outstanding, big bite on a human.


Well I tried, but I cannot find a video of one doing bitework! Great Danes and JRT's, a Poodle or two but not one Saluki.
I believe they take down gazelles by the neck so I would guess that would need a deep bite?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> Well I tried, but I cannot find a video of one doing bitework! Great Danes and JRT's, a Poodle or two but not one Saluki.
> I believe they take down gazelles by the neck so I would guess that would need a deep bite?


Bingo! They would need a genetic deep bite.


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## berno von der seeweise

time for a little history lesson 

All the police type breeds we know today are of recent manufacture, and none was developed or ever intended to be deployed as "lethal force." However for many centuries prior to the kennel club/pedigree dog fancy, sighthound type (et al) were indeed developed and employed as such. Once upon a time sighthounds were used to dispatch riders off horseback beyond the effective range of spears and arrows. 

go right ahead and laugh at salukis all you like now, because that's as grizzly as I'm going to get here

please carry on


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## MineAreWorkingline

Who's laughing at Salukis? What's humorous is thinking that grip is nurture if a dog has the right skull construction. Although, science has found that grip is strongly influenced by skull structure itself, but that's not nurture either.


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## David Winners

Man, if you crossed a saluki and the right GSD, those pups would bite so deep they would need snorkels.


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## MineAreWorkingline




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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Who's laughing at Salukis? What's humorous is thinking that grip is nurture if a dog has the right skull construction. Although, science has found that grip is strongly influenced by skull structure itself, but that's not nurture either.


I just dug up a few vids of Danes being flogged as protection dogs. Genetically a Dane can bite, and with an impressive force, but even raised and trained to bite it is at odds with their personalities and it shows. So in that case nurture does not trump nature. I've seen an angry Dane, they are impressive but to get one to latch onto a human requires extreme provocation. I suspect the same might be true of Salukis.


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## MineAreWorkingline

https://m.facebook.com/story/graphq...fSTcxMDc4ODQ3OTAxNDQ3MjoyNzI4OTM5NTk3MTk5MzQw


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## berno von der seeweise

berno von der seeweise said:


>


the truth is, these modern "herding" breeds we're all so fond of around here really aren't _all that_ bloodthirsty, and believe it or not, that's actually a big part of the reason we all like them so much

I've seen the results of outdated and unorthodox training methods where applied to less refined breeds, and I assure you all, it is no laughing matter


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## MineAreWorkingline

I think we already knew that they aren't NBKs.


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## David Winners

Just for comparison


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## berno von der seeweise

random dogs I snatched from the classifieds in about 60 seconds



























long, low, flat = gsd correct















apparently sv is "radically transforming" the bite now?












MineAreWorkingline said:


> What's humorous is thinking that grip is nurture if a dog has the right skull construction.


I wouldn't call it "humorous" but your apparent "belief" that any gsd might have ever "just naturally" opened it's jaws this wide without very good training is purely misguided.





















MineAreWorkingline said:


> Big bites tend to be preferred to reduce damage and liability. It is not unusual for a better dog to have a lesser grip, depending on your definition of "better".


 like I keep saying, the well bred, well trained gsd does not maul


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## Chip Blasiole

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think Chip mentioned no sport titles in his ped for 3 generations? 5 generations? Something like that? But Chip's been training for decades, and I'm told his decoy is somewhat notorious, so... I personally have faith he can and will do it.


Just to clarify, I said the sire of my dog and his paternal granddam are the only dogs who do not have sport titles in the first five generations and well beyond. There is also a lot of back massing way back on many great dogs such as Fado, Racker, Umsa, Greif, Bernd, Mutz, Vello, and some nice DDR dogs such as Lord, and some of the DDR foundation dogs for Jinopo and used in the zPS program such as Ingo v. Rudigen. While one could argue their genetic influence is slight, I would rather have back massing on those dogs than less reputable dogs.
As far as the decoy I train with, his “ notoriety” is based on pushing a dog to his genetics and trained limits in order to test the dog. Decoy talent has decreased.


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## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> Just to clarify, I said the sire of my dog and his paternal granddam are the only dogs who do not have sport titles in the first five generations and well beyond. There is also a lot of back massing way back on many great dogs such as Fado, Racker, Umsa, Greif, Bernd, Mutz, Vello, and some nice DDR dogs such as Lord, and some of the DDR foundation dogs for Jinopo and used in the zPS program such as Ingo v. Rudigen. While one could argue their genetic influence is slight, I would rather have back massing on those dogs than less reputable dogs.
> As far as the decoy I train with, his “ notoriety” is based on pushing a dog to his genetics and trained limits in order to test the dog. Decoy talent has decreased.


Who do you work with Chip?


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> they were not purebred, but had some very close saluki relatives in their peds
> 
> you do not want a sighthound clamped onto your arm. trust me. I've been there
> 
> View attachment 561447


Did you just add this picture? It looks like some type of lurcher: sight hound x terrier mix. And you think it gets a full grip and a willingness to fight the man from its Saluki blood?


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> random dogs I snatched from the classifieds in about 60 seconds
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> long, low, flat = gsd correct
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> apparently sv is "radically transforming" the bite now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't call it "humorous" but your apparent "belief" that any gsd might have ever "just naturally" opened it's jaws this wide without very good training is purely misguided.
> 
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> like I keep saying, the well bred, well trained gsd does not maul


Nowhere did I state that you can't enhance a dog's genetic grip. I clearly stated that you can't get out what isn't there to begin with.


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## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is also a lot of back massing way back on many great dogs such as Fado, Racker, Umsa, Greif, Bernd, Mutz, Vello, and some nice DDR dogs such as Lord, and some of the DDR foundation dogs for Jinopo and used in the zPS program such as Ingo v. Rudigen. While one could argue their genetic influence is slight, I would rather have back massing on those dogs than less reputable dogs.


looking forward to more obedience videos, and ultimately your psa 3 obedience video here! Protection, too, of course.

Breeding animals is like baking bread. It’s half Science and half Art. As you correctly often cite regarding heritability, the Science half is still _at least half_ theoretical (_there’s a real bernoism_), while the Art half relies primarily upon the breeder’s eye. It’s always interesting to click back through a pedigree and judge which of an animal’s ancestor’s does he most emulate? Good photos of good animals are really important for future generations of breeders.

I know many performance driven folk don't like talking conformation, but I want to say a few words as far as Importance of sire and dam fotos in terms of finding* a quality home *for a pup as well. High quality homes are high quality still foto oriented. “I want a pup who’ll grow up to look like _that dog!_”









Speaking of good fotos, and getting back to that old fashioned pre-perlich type, some of them looked/marked not altogether unlike like this working female I gleaned from from another thread.








looks like a very handsome full sib but the foto could certainly be better...








sire expressed somewhat similar type when bred to the above dam








half siblings fancy and fred suggest prepotent "old fashioned" type!

















really good example of a really bad foto. just doesn’t illustrate the dog at all…
sorry but, no sale...


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## MineAreWorkingline

Some say there is a correlation between the genetics of the stumpy legged, long bodied dog and social aggression more often found in Czech types.


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## Chip Blasiole

I believe I have posted this photo before, but you can see the muscle mass and bone. I will try to get some stacked photos later. Recent vet check showed the dog weighed 107.8 pounds. You can also see his large nails and he has large teeth and a very thick tail and strong pelvic muscle mass. PSA 3 videos are no time soon. We put a lot of emphasis in precision without creating conflict and that takes time. It is a marathon, not a sprint.


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## berno von der seeweise

Geist looks fabulous in the vids! 107+lbs!! I sure wouldn't want to wrassle that dog


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## Chip Blasiole

He is fast and agile for a dog his size, his bite mechanics are very good in that he strikes well and hits the upper bicep, and he pushes well, but does tend to pull when he gets winded. I need to work on conditioning him more when it gets cooler.


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## Chip Blasiole




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## Chip Blasiole

You can see the bite mechanics of grip, targeting, taking stick hits and outing. In the future we will likely do some table training which will tap into more aggression and likely change the dog’s mindset.


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## berno von der seeweise

_bumped for a 2nd look_




I like this one because I feel like I get a better look at him, relaxed, playing tug.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


>


calm, full, quiet. It's not personal, just business. Tail wagging, obviously loves his job. That dog exudes self confidence. You get a good sense of his physical strength @ 0:49  Chip says "good boy" and Geist gives the bad guy a little shake, like a ragdoll! Dog's attitude seems to suggest "just another day at the office."


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> calm, full, quiet. It's not personal, just business. Tail wagging, obviously loves his job. That dog exudes self confidence. You get a good sense of his physical strength @ 0:49  Chip says "good boy" and Geist gives the bad guy a little shake, like a ragdoll! Dog's attitude seems to suggest "just another day at the office."


Hey Berno! Here's an untrained full grip for you! 😜


----------



## Sabis mom

That's why Bud was not allowed near Shadow. Except he was not doing it in a playful or happy way. It was more of a "if I tear this off, will she go away?" Lol.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Browsing ads and this foto caught my eye. Looking at that little stud pup and remembering our conversation here, I coined a phrase: “Nurture that nature.” Loosely translated it reads: “natura quod, nutrio” Rings very nicely in my ear. That’s a keeper, for sure. In english it means “the nature, I nurture”_ ie; the genetics are contained within the breed, and the rest is up to you._
Every breeding program should have a Latin motto because so many potential high quality homes respond positively. I’ve employed several and have received countless positive comments over the years. Never a negative.
It’s perfectly acceptable and QUITE orthodox to borrow/employ any existing Latin motto you like (_ad usum proprium_). It’s actually better to use an existing latin motto because anyone can just google it. Whereas a homebrewed motto such as mine up above is ungoogleable, and therefore subject to endless debate among dead language bs’ers, such as yours truly


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

_Obscurum per obscurius_


----------



## berno von der seeweise

nurture the nature










nothing complicated about that


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Prey drive is only part of a dog’s drive/trait package. I would certainly want a pup that showed the prey and possession in the photo than one that didn’t. Other traits and drives aside, training a dog with very high prey drive incorrectly can lead to problems. Way too many decoys/ helpers overstimulate a pup/ dog in prey to essentially beg them to bite and their obsessive prey drive masks deficits that correct training would expose the pup/ dog to stress that the dog could learn to work through making them a much stronger dog. IMO that is where a lot of the opinion that a dog has only the genetics as a sport dog vs. an operational dog comes from. Also, sport doesn’t necessarily take a dog to the level of becoming civil due to the training. Some people don’t want or need that type of training but it shows how training can significantly influence how a dog turns out. IMO, IGP tends to set a dog up much more as a dog incapable of fighting a man because of the expectations of the sport.


----------



## David Winners

IME, most SCH3 dogs can't transition to the street unless they do civil work as well as soon as they are mature enough to handle some pressure. Ring and PSA dogs transition better. KNPV is obviously a direct path to the street.


----------



## Nscullin

David Winners said:


> IME, most SCH3 dogs can't transition to the street unless they do civil work as well as soon as they are mature enough to handle some pressure. Ring and PSA dogs transition better. KNPV is obviously a direct path to the street.


Funny you say this. I just read this on another site about psa dogs. Any response? 

“There are some that train for PSA shooting for serious precision which makes control and the odds of success at the higher levels greater. A “good dog” becomes more subjective in PSA because there is more stress to work through. A lot of very high drive Mals pass largely due to extreme prey and the compulsive drive that goes with it so they might not actually be civil dogs.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chip Blasiole

KNPV requires minimal control because they are selecting for police dogs. The issue there is that regarding Mal X’s, they are selecting for dogs theses days that are mainly extreme in hunt and prey and lack other forms of aggression.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> IME, most SCH3 dogs can't transition to the street unless they do civil work as well as soon as they are mature enough to handle some pressure. Ring and PSA dogs transition better. KNPV is obviously a direct path to the street.


What area would you say they struggle with? Is it taking the pressure? Is it targeting the man? Would you say it’s better to start the dog in civil work and work the sport aspects later or parallel train?


----------



## David Winners

From worst to least:

Inability to get away from the handler, meaning dog being stuck in a 6 foot radius because of so much OB or lack of confidence. This poses a real problem when trying to teach off leash detection where the dog works out to 100 meters.

Lack of ability to handle real pressure, escalating exponentially when away from the handler.

Completely equipment oriented. Won't bite on hidden equipment. Won't leg bite. Won't bite from the rear.

Tendency to bark and hold, anticipating the out, confused in strange situations (inside buildings, cars, slick floors, anything besides a sleeve on a field).


While I haven't trained for sport/SCH since I was a kid, I would say that concurrent training would be best, or better yet choosing a sport that more accurately mirrors real life. Any successful PSA dog that has enough hunt to do detection would make a great working dog.


----------



## David Winners

Nscullin said:


> Funny you say this. I just read this on another site about psa dogs. Any response?
> 
> “There are some that train for PSA shooting for serious precision which makes control and the odds of success at the higher levels greater. A “good dog” becomes more subjective in PSA because there is more stress to work through. A lot of very high drive Mals pass largely due to extreme prey and the compulsive drive that goes with it so they might not actually be civil dogs.”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many top tier military dogs work strictly in prey drive. If it's enough to carry them through the fight, that's all it takes. They are easy to train. They change handlers easily. 

That being said, that's not my kind of dog. I like to train them but don't want to live with them.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Many top tier military dogs work strictly in prey drive. If it's enough to carry them through the fight, that's all it takes. They are easy to train. *They change handlers easily.*
> 
> That being said, that's not my kind of dog. I like to train them but don't want to live with them.


That doesn't seem natural. What traits are behind that? Does it apply to all breeds used?


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Inability to get away from the handler, meaning dog being stuck in a 6 foot radius because of so much OB or lack of confidence. This poses a real problem when trying to teach off leash detection where the dog works out to 100 meters.


Not to be confused with actual protection where the dog is or may be taught to remain close and cannot be baited or driven away from its handler. Those dogs are or can be taught a command to leave if it is required.

Not disagreeing David. Just wanted to make that distinction for future readers.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Keep in mind the KNPV referred to are Mal X’s and their level of prey far exceeds that of a GSD and brings extreme possessiveness, frustration aggression and fight such that any resistance ratchets the dog up even more.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Not to be confused with actual protection where the dog is or may be taught to remain close and cannot be baited or driven away from its handler. Those dogs are or can be taught a command to leave if it is required.
> 
> Not disagreeing David. Just wanted to make that distinction for future readers.


Thank you for that clarification!

My perspective is entirely military'LE based. A dog that won't leave your side unless there is an immediate threat is a wash. It's a bad day when you send a dog in a window and it jumps back out.

I certainly train a tactical heel where the dog can face anywhere but must stay in contact with my legs.


----------



## Bearshandler

That’s interesting. While I never thought of shutzhund as a direct path to protection work, I never thought it would lead to that kind of struggle to transition. How much of that do you think was training and how much was the dog itself? Do you think most of them would have been more successful if they came in as green dogs? How old were they when they arrived? Some of those issues you listed obviously lean one way or the other. I would say most of your list comes from hyper specialized training.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> Keep in mind the KNPV referred to are Mal X’s and their level of prey far exceeds that of a GSD and brings extreme possessiveness, frustration aggression and fight such that any resistance ratchets the dog up even more.


Yes, an important point. They are very aggressive and possessive but it comes from a different place. They aren't angry because you are fighting them, they are angry because the bicep in their mouth is now theirs and you are trying to take it away. Very effective, and can be a royal pain.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Thank you for that clarification!
> 
> My perspective is entirely military'LE based. A dog that won't leave your side unless there is an immediate threat is a wash. It's a bad day when you send a dog in a window and it jumps back out.
> 
> I certainly train a tactical heel where the dog can face anywhere but must stay in contact with my legs.


It's interesting how different uses bring different perspectives. 
In general or dogs were trained for detection work/access control type stuff or crowd control or building searches/area searches for people. So they had that training if required but their default was personal protection, they were specifically trained to maintain a 6 foot perimeter around the handler and not leave us regardless of provocation. 
So if you came at me and Sabi bit you she was trained to let go if you pulled back. It prevented the possibility of one person baiting the dog away while others grabbed the handler. Because that happened.
So their default always was never leave the handler. Lots of prey drive would have made that difficult.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> That’s interesting. While I never thought of shutzhund as a direct path to protection work, I never thought it would lead to that kind of struggle to transition. How much of that do you think was training and how much was the dog itself? Do you think most of them would have been more successful if they came in as green dogs? How old were they when they arrived? Some of those issues you listed obviously lean one way or the other. I would say most of your list comes from hyper specialized training.


Hyper situational training. Training only for the required exercises. No real pressure applied to the dog during foundation.

Don't mistake me for thinking all IPG/IPO/SCH dogs are weak or can't transition. The best sport dogs are used for just that. Some of them would make outstanding patrol dogs. I can't say why these dogs ended up at the kennels to be tested. Money? Wash outs?


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Hyper situational training. Training only for the required exercises. No real pressure applied to the dog during foundation.
> 
> Don't mistake me for thinking all IPG/IPO/SCH dogs are weak or can't transition. The best sport dogs are used for just that. Some of them would make outstanding patrol dogs. I can't say why these dogs ended up at the kennels to be tested. Money? Wash outs?


I just wanted to get a good picture of your experiences. You’ve given me some good discussion points for the next time I talk to my training director. Inability to work away from the handler came up before.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I just wanted to get a good picture of your experiences. You’ve given me some good discussion points for the next time I talk to my training director. Inability to work away from the handler came up before.


The inability to work away from and out of sight of the handler is why so few dogs title to a ZVV3/SVV3. Most dogs won't stay on the field, let alone perform without their handler in sight. It is one of the major differences ZVV3 vs IGP.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

speaking of zvv3 






this looks like normal prey to me. when they said "ddr gsd" this is what I expected.

I do not understand the point/purpose of low prey in ddr gsd? what was the advantage?










also, what does anybody think about these new fangled rubber arms and legs?

I really don't know what to think? I'm a little skeptical?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline




----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Low prey so that the dog stays on guard duty.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Not so sure about that. The DDR wall dogs were tethered. Extreme prey KNPV can do an excellent object guard.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

David Winners said:


> Yes, an important point. They are very aggressive and possessive but it comes from a different place. They aren't angry because you are fighting them, they are angry because the bicep in their mouth is now theirs and you are trying to take it away. Very effective, and can be a royal pain.


GSDs who have aggression tend to have defensive aggression which is motivated by worry/fear which can increase the chance of avoidance and flight.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

IMO the rubber arms are stupid. Dogs don’t perceive them as a body part. They don’t smell like a person and the feels no movement of muscles and tendons such as with a competition suit.


----------



## David Winners

What do either of those videos have to do with prey vs civil?

It's an overweight GSD doing ok OB with a handler. It's distracted by the camera man. No bite work.

And an 8 week old puppy.

Please tell me what I'm missing here.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> GSDs who have aggression tend to have defensive aggression which is motivated by worry/fear which can increase the chance of avoidance and flight.


Sure, but that doesn't mean a civil GSD will run. There is also a chance a chicken will be in the picture with a 100% prey mal and you have to go find your dog.

Everything is a compromise. I totally understand the mal and it's uses. I commend the really capable dogs that do incredible things. 

They just aren't the dog I like to live with. I've known a few GSD that wouldn't run from a fight


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip Blasiole said:


> Not so sure about that. The DDR wall dogs were tethered. Extreme prey KNPV can do an excellent object guard.


? 
Why train a high prey drive dog to do what a lower prey drive dog does naturally? Wouldn't that be a waste of resources?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> What do either of those videos have to do with prey vs civil?
> 
> It's an overweight GSD doing ok OB with a handler. It's distracted by the camera man. No bite work.
> 
> And an 8 week old puppy.
> 
> Please tell me what I'm missing here.


He posted the fat GSD because the video was tagged ZVV3 and he wasn't impressed because I had mentioned ZVV3.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That doesn't seem natural. What traits are behind that? Does it apply to all breeds used?


Um... I'm not sure what you mean by natural. 

Most of these dogs are mal, Dutchie or mal x GSD.

Their drive is so crazy that you can train/extinguish about any behavior.

They are amazing, and crazy, and not like any dog you have experienced unless you have worked them. They are successful in the role they are asked to fill.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean a civil GSD will run. There is also a chance a chicken will be in the picture with a 100% prey mal and you have to go find your dog.
> 
> Everything is a compromise. I totally understand the mal and it's uses. I commend the really capable dogs that do incredible things.
> 
> They just aren't the dog I like to live with. I've known a few GSD that wouldn't run from a fight


Some dogs love the fight, some do it out of anger, but that is my opinion based on my humble experience. 

I remember not so long ago that some LE departments were rethinking training with balls because thugs had started to carry balls on them. They would throw a ball with a K9 in pursuit and the K9 would go left and the thug went right.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


>


my pup is WAY more naturally suspicious. Somebody come skulking up like that he is all over it. No leg lift, no ground sniff, just headlong charge, bark and hold. Less sound sensitive as well, but perhaps due to conditioning? Last week I had grain delivered. Bins seemed a little skunky so I washed them out and stacked the feed in the barn overnight. He was right there with me when I did it. Next morning I cut him loose and when he discovered that grain in the barn, where he knew it wasn't supposed to be, bark and hold! Caught me by surprise. I thought he had somebody cornered out there.



David Winners said:


> It's an overweight GSD doing ok OB with a handler. It's distracted by the camera man. No bite work.
> Please tell me what I'm missing here.


you missed the fact that zvv3 is an australian cattle dog in a gsd suit. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously plenty of gsd in it's ped, but there's definitely heeler on both sides back there somewhere as well.

pup vid just illustrates my idea of "normal prey drive." That's an easy quick pup to train. I call that pick of the litter.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

@David Winners

Natural as in bonding vs changing handlers easily.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> my pup is WAY more naturally suspicious. Somebody come skulking up like that he is all over it. No leg lift, no ground sniff, just headlong charge, bark and hold. Less sound sensitive as well, but perhaps due to conditioning? Last week I had feed delivered. Bins seemed a little skunky so I washed them out and stacked the feed in the barn over night. He was right there with me when I did it. Next morning I cut him loose and when he discovered that feed in the barn, where he knew it wasn't supposed to be, bark and hold! Caught me by surprise. I thought he had somebody cornered out there.
> 
> 
> 
> you missed the fact that it's an australian cattle dog in a gsd suit. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously plenty of gsd in it's ped, but there's definitely heeler on both sides back there somewhere as well.
> 
> pup vid just illustrates my idea of "normal prey drive." That's an easy quick pup to train. I call that pick of the litter.


Hey hey hey! Are you making fun of my Heeler?


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> you missed the fact that it's an australian cattle dog in a gsd suit. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously plenty of gsd in it's ped, but there's definitely heeler on both sides back there somewhere as well.


What?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @David Winners
> 
> Natural as in bonding vs changing handlers easily.


band of brothers = family. Dog should work for whichever member.

I know better than to insult a good heeler. Might do a cross myself @ some point.



Sabis mom said:


> What?


cult of breed. can't trust your own eyes 

c'mon now y'all, give me the low down on those rubber arms and legs. My decoy wants santa to bring one for xmas, but I'm really hesitant, and it's already way past berno's bedtime


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Working for anyone doesn't suit my purpose although it evidently works well.for others. I like my dogs theft proof. A friend just had his three LGDs hauled off in a pickup truck. He said he's off to Turkey for some real Kangals this time.

My Heeler is a good Heeler.


----------



## Shadow Shep

I like my dogs theft proof too. My Australian Shepherd wouldn't have let it happen, but my Standard Poodle probably would let it happen, and would only lose it if he was taken away from me. He has separation issues.


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hey hey hey! Are you making fun of my Heeler?
> 
> View attachment 561576


That is a nice looking dog. Love that mischievous expression.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> That is a nice looking dog. Love that mischievous expression.


Thank you! She is a little comedian.


----------



## Sabis mom

I love actual Heelers, they are pushy and funny.
Don't like the fat city ones that snap at people because they are so bloody bored.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Some dogs love the fight, some do it out of anger, but that is my opinion based on my humble experience.
> 
> I remember not so long ago that some LE departments were rethinking training with balls because thugs had started to carry balls on them. They would throw a ball with a K9 in pursuit and the K9 would go left and the thug went right.


Yes, there are definitely MMA fighter type dogs out there. I love them


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> I love actual Heelers, they are pushy and funny.
> Don't like the fat city ones that snap at people because they are so bloody bored.


Well, she is a city dog but not snappy at all. And not fat but incredibly muscular and rock hard. The GSDs and Mals keep her in shape.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Working for anyone doesn't suit my purpose although it evidently works well.for others.


MWD are raised and trained that way. Exact same dog raised /trained by you on your site would/should bond and not go with anyone else. Nurture.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> my pup is WAY more naturally suspicious. Somebody come skulking up like that he is all over it. No leg lift, no ground sniff, just headlong charge, bark and hold. Less sound sensitive as well, but perhaps due to conditioning? Last week I had feed delivered. Bins seemed a little skunky so I washed them out and stacked the feed in the barn over night. He was right there with me when I did it. Next morning I cut him loose and when he discovered that feed in the barn, where he knew it wasn't supposed to be, bark and hold! Caught me by surprise. I thought he had somebody cornered out there.
> 
> 
> 
> you missed the fact that zvv3 is an australian cattle dog in a gsd suit. Bit of an exaggeration, obviously plenty of gsd in it's ped, but there's definitely heeler on both sides back there somewhere as well.
> 
> pup vid just illustrates my idea of "normal prey drive." That's an easy quick pup to train. I call that pick of the litter.


I see nothing remarkable about either dog. For someone that advocates vollhard testing, I would think there would be more criteria to selecting pick of the litter than some prey drive testing.

I find it interesting that your dog went into a bark and hold on an inanimate object and you think that is a good thing.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Yes, there are definitely MMA fighter type dogs out there. I love them


I got one. I love him!


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @David Winners
> 
> Natural as in bonding vs changing handlers easily.


I have experienced the bond a GSD will form with a handler. There is nothing like it IMO.

I mean, I just got a GSD pup


----------



## Sabis mom

All the same kind of dogs, you understand them. Give them what they need. I meant the people that lock them in little yards until they are so bored out of their minds they get nuts. 
Heck my dog with a wonky heart walks more then any other dog in the neighborhood. Every day, rain or shine, we walk until her ear tips, lol.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> MWD are raised and trained that way. Exact same dog raised /trained by you on your site would/should bond and not go with anyone else. Nurture.


How many MWD have you raised and trained? My dog wouldn't work for another handler after me. She was 4 when I got her.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

not optimal 

I expect a dog to work for whichever team member needs a dog


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> MWD are raised and trained that way. Exact same dog raised /trained by you on your site would/should bond and not go with anyone else. Nurture.


I do not believe that bonding, or lack thereof, is nurture. Take Labs for instance, they are specifically bred to be social not only because they may be working near or with other people or dogs, but it is a common practice for a variety of hunters besides the owner to be able to take the dog with them hunting. That is why my original comment asked what traits were behind that specific behavior in the dogs David was talking about.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> not optimal
> 
> I expect a dog to work for whichever team member needs a dog


Have you worked a dog? Ever?

And you certainly didn't answer the question.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

training = nurture MAWL



David Winners said:


> Have you worked a dog? Ever?


never claimed to be a cop, or a soldier, or a sport. so what?
...


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> training = nurture MAWL
> 
> 
> 
> never claimed to be a cop, or a soldier, or a sport. so what?
> 
> ...


So nothing. Nothing at all.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> training = nurture MAWL
> 
> 
> 
> never claimed to be a cop, or a soldier, or a sport. so what?
> 
> ...


Training is a part of nurture but nurture involves a lot more than that.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> So nothing. Nothing at all.


 I'm a pirate!


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm a pirate!


Still didn't answer lol


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't quite understand your question? have I ever worked a dog?
I am a pirate, and I certainly don't feed a dog that don't work.








arrrgh!



David Winners said:


> I find it interesting that your dog went into a bark and hold on an inanimate object and you think that is a good thing.


Obviously it's genetic. I didn't train him to do that.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

En garde! 

And no, I did not train her to grab a knife and come at me while I slept!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

David Winners said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean a civil GSD will run. There is also a chance a chicken will be in the picture with a 100% prey mal and you have to go find your dog.
> 
> Everything is a compromise. I totally understand the mal and it's uses. I commend the really capable dogs that do incredible things.
> 
> They just aren't the dog I like to live with. I've known a few GSD that wouldn't run from a fight


Yes, there are many other variables involved and there are GSDs that genetically have very strong defensive aggression and others, via training can be taught to turn off and push through the stress. I am just saying initially, the catalyst for defensive aggression is worry where prey is more of a lustful drive.


----------



## Shadow Shep

MineAreWorkingline said:


> En garde!
> 
> And no, I did not train her to grab a knife and come at me while I slept!
> 
> View attachment 561577


She must have seen that in a horror movie😱


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> For someone that advocates vollhard testing, I would think there would be more criteria to selecting pick of the litter than some prey drive testing.


obviously you’ve never vpat’d a litter, but _have you ever even been around_ a litter?

this pup is a superstar! outgoing, confident, personable, self assured

he embodies the expression “pick of the litter”


----------



## Nscullin

berno von der seeweise said:


> obviously you’ve never vpat’d a litter, but _have you ever even been around_ a litter?
> 
> this pup is a superstar! outgoing, confident, personable, self assured
> 
> he embodies the expression “pick of the litter”


How would you know that without seeing the whole litter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> obviously you’ve never vpat’d a litter, but _have you ever even been around_ a litter?
> 
> this pup is a superstar! outgoing, confident, personable, self assured
> 
> he embodies the expression “pick of the litter”


I see prey drive in this video. I don’t know where the rest of your assessment comes from. Pick of the litter is highly subjective, depending on who you talk to and what they want the dog to do. I chose my puppy because he sounded handler oriented, with great confidence and nerve. I know someone else who just said give me the biggest one. Both dogs are worked in the same venue.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

bear in mind that additional, post vpat, 8th week had a profound effect on the individual. Nevertheless I've vapt'd enough litters to recognize a standout of that caliber from a mile away. Pup in the vid is handler oriented enough. "Gimmie the biggest one" is fairly common where potential breeding stock is being selected.

edit: while I'm at it here, re; _that heeler business_ (et al) to me it speaks volumes about the integrity of_ many_ export market breeders...


----------



## Sabis mom

I agree with @Bearshandler . My pick would not be your pick. Personally I don't like to see super high prey drive. I dislike working with it. I have a dog now with high, very hectic prey drive.
I look for other things more suited to my needs.

ETA I didn't see anything in that pup that indicates handler oriented as much as toy oriented. And while he looks fun, he definitely would not be my pick.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

he doesn't look "hectic" at all? he looks happy and well adjusted at play. Prey is only a cornerstone for training. Easy to direct.


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> he doesn't look "hectic" at all?


Lol. I'm still on my first coffee, but I don't think that's what I said.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> he doesn't look "hectic" at all? he looks happy and well adjusted at play. Prey is only a cornerstone for training. Easy to direct.


Sometimes it means more to direct.


----------



## Bearshandler

I’m not saying he looks bad or anything. I am saying that I need to see and know more to make a full determination. I can’t speak of a dog’s confidence from playing at home. I can’t say he’s outgoing from a video of him and his owner. I can’t say he’s handler oriented just from a video of him chasing a rag. There’s a lot that this video doesn’t say.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> obviously you’ve never vpat’d a litter, but _have you ever even been around_ a litter?
> 
> this pup is a superstar! outgoing, confident, personable, self assured
> 
> he embodies the expression “pick of the litter”


I grew up in a kennels. I've been around probably 40 litters through 10-12 weeks and have been involved in training some of those offspring through adulthood.

I wish I had your experience and extra sensory perception. It would make everything so much easier. 7 minutes in the life of a puppy. It must speak volumes to someone of your breeding prowess.

I mean, I'd need to see the rest of the litter, observe them together and individually, observe and interact with them in a strange location with different stimulus and all that mundane stuff that we mere mortals do to gain information on the individual pups in a litter.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

obviously too much is _too much_. I'm not suggesting gsd "_ought to be a malinois in black and red_."

very interesting evaluations, not at all without merits imo : winlunds



David Winners said:


> It must speak volumes to someone of your breeding prowess.


 vpat is empirical. no prowess required.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

You can get a sense of a litter of pups as to if they have potential depending what they were bred for or if they all need to be culled. Other than that, imprinting and training will tell you if a dog can do what it was bred to do.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> obviously too much is _too much_. I'm not suggesting gsd "_ought to be a malinois in black and red_."
> 
> very interesting evaluations, not at all without merits imo : winlunds
> 
> 
> 
> vpat is empirical. no prowess required.


How about a GSD like a Mali in solid black? She's more Mal than my black Mal.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> IMO the rubber arms are stupid. Dogs don’t perceive them as a body part. They don’t smell like a person and the feels no movement of muscles and tendons such as with a competition suit.


That’s the answer I was hoping for. I can get 500lbs ol’ roy for the price of one rubber arm.

re; low prey ddr gsd

Admittedly this is a far flung theory, but it occurred to me earlier today that one may easily assert some correlation between low prey and correct continental tending (“herding”) traits. The sole basis for that assertion being, the high flying prey drives exhibited by other ddr breeds/lines were neither developed to, nor developed from, livestock tending parentstocks.

Again, double rectified 180 proof pure speculation, but perhaps the ddr gsd program redirected/refocused the inherent _livestock tending tendency_ of ddr gsd toward “tending” criminals/prisoners/fugitives/etc?

In any event, according to my own observations at least, it doesn’t readily redirect/refocus to modern protection training. Of course it’s been done many times in the past and will again many times in the future, but unless you’re specifically looking for a “_square peg round hole_” challenge, I strongly discourage selecting a protection candidate which exhibits extraordinary lack of prey.

As our venerable Mr. Winners correctly stated previously in this thread:



David Winners said:


> Many top tier military dogs work strictly in prey drive. If it's enough to carry them through the fight, that's all it takes. They are easy to train.


----------



## David Winners

Berno

What is the deal with the fake dog with bogus titles in your sig?


----------



## Bearshandler

berno von der seeweise said:


> That’s the answer I was hoping for. I can get 500lbs ol’ roy for the price of one rubber arm.
> 
> re; low prey ddr gsd
> 
> Admittedly this is a far flung theory, but it occurred to me earlier today that one may easily assert some correlation between low prey and correct continental tending (“herding”) traits. The sole basis for that assertion being, the high flying prey drives exhibited by other ddr breeds/lines were neither developed to, nor developed from, livestock tending parentstocks.
> 
> Again, double rectified 180 proof pure speculation, but perhaps the ddr gsd program redirected/refocused the inherent _livestock tending tendency_ of ddr gsd toward “tending” criminals/prisoners/fugitives/etc?
> 
> In any event, according to my own observations at least, it doesn’t readily redirect/refocus to modern protection training. Of course it’s been done many times in the past and will again many times in the future, but unless you’re specifically looking for a “_square peg round hole_” challenge, I strongly discourage selecting a protection candidate which exhibits extraordinary lack of prey.
> 
> As our venerable Mr. Winners correctly stated previously in this thread:


Those East German dogs of old worked with social aggression. They were very civil dogs. That type of dog has fallen out of favor in modern times. I don’t know if low prey drive was selected for so much as high prey drive wasn’t selected for. A lot of the protection dogs from that time period had that sort of temperament, like old school working Doberman. The part I don’t get is how a history buff like you who does this much research is surprised by general East German characteristics.


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## Bearshandler

Gelmo is the puppy he talks about. I’m curious about the titles to now that you mention it.


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Berno
> 
> What is the deal with the fake dog with bogus titles in your sig?


 that's a _real_ pirate dog, and those are_ real_ pirate titles

arrgh!


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## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> A lot of the protection dogs from that time period had that sort of temperament, like old school working Doberman. The part I don’t get is how a history buff like you who does this much research is surprised by general East German characteristics.


I've trained ddr dobe and ddr schnauzer, all have FAR higher prey

gelmo v piratwald HGH, PPD11, Kkl1+, DDR ZL:XII is my only ddr gsd experience

ddr gsd vs ddr dob/gs is like night vs day


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've trained ddr dobe and ddr schnauzer, all have FAR higher prey
> 
> gelmo v piratwald HGH, PPD11, Kkl1+, DDR ZL:XII is my only ddr gsd experience
> 
> ddr gsd vs ddr dob/gs is like night vs day


Trained them to do what?


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## berno von der seeweise

mostly this


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## berno von der seeweise

while I'm at it here tonight, Mr. Winners, if you wanna see a dog that ain't fit to live with, go ahead and convince a low prey ddr gsd the protection game is "for real." On that note and with all due respect Chip, from where I'm sittin', you MUST be completely out of your mind 

I love you, man. No offense intended.


----------



## Sabis mom

Look, I'm just an idiot crazy dog lady. I know nothing. 
But Berno you keep coming back to this DDR prey drive thing, or prey drive in anything. The dogs I worked with were predominately or entirely of DDR lines. I handled 3 or four generations of those lines, none had particularly noticeable prey drive. I was always told by breeders and trainers that the DDR dogs never typically possessed high prey drive. It was not needed. These were not dogs to perform for a judge, they were bred to do a deadly serious job. They were straight up guard and attack dogs. They in general can track anything, climb anything, jump anything, don't give a rats petunia about weather conditions and take the health and safety of their handlers/families deadly seriously. That was my experience with the dogs I handled, including Bud. They worked every day, they would take on all comers(with a grin) and they got me home safe at the end of the job.
None of that requires high amounts of prey drive.


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## Chip Blasiole

If you are referring to evaluating puppies, it definitely has value but a seasoned breeder will be able to evaluate a pup far better than any test. Especially if they know their breeding stock well and how they produce. I think the breeder that picked my pup for me pretty much nailed what I was looking for and sent video showing the imprinting he received since the pup came from Canada. Regarding DDR dogs and lower prey, I think the comment that the early DDR breeders just didn’t value prey drive and selected for true social aggression and dominance is accurate. I have heard the old DDR breeders culled pups that showed high prey drive and even valued dog aggression thinking it could enhance overall aggression. Schutzhund wasn’t part of the early DDR dogs and the use of prey drive and inducive training approaches started well after the end of the DDR. As time has passed, IMO, selecting for too much prey has harmed GSDs and Mals. Dogs should have more balanced drives but sports like IGP has become big business in many different areas. Then add in the popularity of a breed always lead to overall decline. I can think of one seasoned breeder in the Netherlands that still breeds old style, non FCI Dutch Shepherds, but you won’t get a pup from him unless you have a connection and go and get the pup and even then you will get a lower quality pup.


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## berno von der seeweise

oh, I'm _completely confident_ you got EXACTLY what you wanted 

Nobody's rooting for your PSA3 more than me. I'm your biggest fan. Geist too.

I only hope no PSA decoys get seriously injured or killed along the way...

do those guys ever wear neck/throat protectors?


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## Chip Blasiole

I am realistic of the odds of obtaining a PSA 3, especially now that you have to pass two legs instead of just passing one trial. I also see many people who don’t fully believe in their dogs and fortunately I don’t feel that way. No neck protectors but sometimes a tricep bite will result in a neck injury to the decoy. For an escape bite we have trained for a leg bite behind and just above the knee which is safer and encourages a pushing bite. Recently while training I did a long send with my dog and his timing was off so he ran through the bite and turned around and did a nice tricep bite with zero training. It just goes to show how many repetitions are required for sport to prepare a dog for different decoy styles, many of which will be inconsistent with the expected decoy presentation.
As far as getting the pup I wanted, I didn’t have a connection with the breeder other than how I expressed my wants and experience. I was very fortunate to have an ethical, honest breeder.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

just to be on the safe side, they really ought to get some neck protection. If one of those hooligans pushes the wrong button on that dog, it's liable to get ugly.

no offense intended


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## Chip Blasiole

Actually, he is just 2.5 years old and in the future we will be doing civil work which can change a dog if done correctly. It just depends on what he can handle and how far I want to take it. My focus now is trial success which is so much about controlled aggression. If he were to be used for something more real to life the training would have already been different with increased liability. I don’t need him to protect me in downtown Detroit at this point.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> while I'm at it here tonight, Mr. Winners, if you wanna see a dog that ain't fit to live with, go ahead and convince a low prey ddr gsd the protection game is "for real." On that note and with all due respect Chip, from where I'm sittin', you MUST be completely out of your mind
> 
> I love you, man. No offense intended.


Please sir. Educate me. It's not like I've trained any defensive dogs.










Nothing but prey drive in those eyes.


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## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Please sir. Educate me. It's not like I've trained any defensive dogs.
> 
> View attachment 561620
> 
> 
> Nothing but prey drive in those eyes.


I taught mine to dance on air. My dogs call me the dance mommy. I started the Mals on hip hop and the Heeler on break dancing.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Please sir. Educate me. It's not like I've trained any defensive dogs.
> 
> View attachment 561620
> 
> 
> Nothing but prey drive in those eyes.


I thought you worked at some pet training place. Vohne something?


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I thought you worked at some pet training place. Vohne something?


HAHAHA... yeah. A small pet training facility. Mostly doodles and frizes. There was a single season reality show shot there. It's not reality, but it's fun to watch.

It's me or the dog 😂😂😂


----------



## Bearshandler

I have a preference for balanced drives, with prey a little higher if anything. I use my dogs more for sports, so it works better for me. The low prey drive, primarily defense dogs can be more challenging to train and less enjoyable to do protection with. If I wanted a personal protection dog, they could work out better for me. There is one I train with that I really like, but it also took a while for him to mature.


----------



## David Winners

Yes, defense takes time or it gets hectic and you see redirecting and conflict. You can't rush that kind of dog, and that happens too often IMO.


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> mostly this


Hey Berno! You like to imprint puppies. I know a breeder that used to use his bare arm to imprint puppies to bite the man. I actually saw the videos of the carnage. Did you go to the same school?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I don’t see it as dogs who have more defensive drive as those dogs take more time to mature. I see it as the training has to not outpace the dog’s ability to cope with his defensive feelings/stress which is not the case with prey. The defensive dog needs to learn what behaviors turn off the defensive aggression elicited stress by offering the behavior you want to see and reinforcing it by the behavior causing the stress to go away building the dog’s confidence in his ability to fight a perceived threat. The decoy has to be very good and should never push the dog too far that he has to back off of the pressure because then the dog learns if he just shows stress the behavior eliciting the stress will go away rather than the dog learning to work through the stress and becoming stronger.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don’t see it as dogs who have more defensive drive as those dogs take more time to mature. I see it as the training has to not outpace the dog’s ability to cope with his defensive feelings/stress which is not the case with prey. The defensive dog needs to learn what behaviors turn off the defensive aggression elicited stress by offering the behavior you want to see and reinforcing it by the behavior causing the stress to go away building the dog’s confidence in his ability to fight a perceived threat. The decoy has to be very good and should never push the dog too far that he has to back off of the pressure because then the dog learns if he just shows stress the behavior eliciting the stress will go away rather than the dog learning to work through the stress and becoming stronger.


Well said on all points.

I always thought KNPV stressed young dogs way too much, and I think a lot failed because of that, but any beast that made it through to 2 years was ready to put a hurting on someone.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I’ve said before that IMO, the KNPV culture of severe compulsion and stress placed on dogs in the program is a way to weed out all but the hardest dogs, when some, with patience and correct training could turn out well but that approach would effect the gene pool. Plus, more and more they are selecting for extreme, super social dogs with very high thresholds for defense.


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## berno von der seeweise

I’m going to qualify all this right here at the outset by again saying, no offense intended toward Chip. He’s been at it for a long time, he knows exactly what he’s doing, he’s well aware his dog isn’t “playing,” and he’s well prepared to manage all that entails...



Sabis mom said:


> Berno you keep coming back to this DDR prey drive thing, or prey drive in anything.


I’m just an internet chatroom pirate. I’ve never claimed to be a pet psychologist, but I do know prey. I understand prey. I’m not talking about chicken brained chicken killer off the charts prey. I’m talking about typical prey. Serviceable prey.










The fact that this dog is not attempting to engage is self evident. He could easily engage right there, and I have no doubt he would on command, but he’s clearly not in defense mode. In that dog’s mind it’s a game, and the fact that he enjoys playing the game is also self evident.

We talk about civil here, man bringing the fight to the dog, dog bringing the fight to the man, taking it to the streets, etc. I’m not criticizing any of that, but personally I do question it all in terms of myself, my dog, and real world application.

suffice it to say, if a bad guy resists my dog I’m going to get “real personal” real quick. So like Winners says about “top tier military dogs,” enough prey to carry a dog though the game is what gets the job done. Therein lies the problem, because extraordinary low prey dogs don’t play games. They think it’s for real, and if you keep drilling what was engineered to be “the protection game” into their heads, you end up with a highly aggressive dog, which I really don’t care to deal with. A typical old fashioned SchH prey monkey is more than enough protection for me. I know how to select it, I know how to train it, and I know how to deploy it. I’m not saying that's “better” I’m saying that’s all I know.

Well, not quite. I also know better than to bitetrain a livestock protection breed, because it’s not a game to them either. They think it’s real too, and anybody who ever trained one lived to regret it, because it ruined the dog. No longer capable of the actual work for which it was intended. Livestock protection breeds have extra low prey as well, and I hazard to guess there's a correlation between that and the gsd’s livestock tending parentstocks. Not a genetic relationship, just similar selection criteria, once upon a time.

Remember, gsd was coaxed from 3 way composite breedings between thuringian, wurttemberger, and swabian. I can’t say with any certainty what ingredient which type brought to the mix, but given the geographical relationship of thuringia to east germany and czechoslovakia, plus the fact the czech and slovak militaries did additional wolf crosses (prey drive?), maybe thuringian brought the defense? And maybe the old ddr gsd tended toward that thuringian component? Just a wild guess...

At any rate, since we’re down here in the breeding section I’ll circle back on topic by suggesting that if you attempt to plan a litter with mainstream modern protection goals in mind, use at least one parent with typical prey drives. Because if you pawn extraordinary low prey pups off on homes with mainstream protection goals, they won’t earn lots of titles. Hence the fact that upon reunification, all the ddr lines were soon absorbed by wgw, z ps, et al.

Getting back to me and my 7/8 ddr level 11 pirate protection dog, I’m trying to decide what to cross him with in a breeding scheme? My vet is hot after some bsd/dsd, but really I feel like there’s enough of that going on already. I’m more inclined to do something along the lines of heeler or bc? Asd or rough collie maybe? I haven’t quite put my finger on it yet? As far as prey is concerned, there’s prey somewhere in my gsd’s ped and I’m sure some of that will express in his offspring no matter what, so I can use anything I want.
I just can’t seem to make up my mind what I want, and that’s totally out of character for me. I’m an intj, and that makes me a little eccentric, but it also makes me a natural born judge, which in turn makes me an above average breeder. I know what I know, and I know what I don’t know, and right now I just really don’t know? Anybody got any ideas? don’t be shy. There is no wrong answer.









"vollmond vom piratwald"

4 dogs x 5 years. Inbred backcross program will throwback to some long lost type, but you have to play it loose. Adapt the program according to what emerges from it. Ped isn’t etched in stone, only a “first draft” blueprint. I’m going to dna the whole thing and “map” the resulting genome. Fun stuff.


----------



## David Winners

Let's see some video of gelmo working. Then we know what building blocks we have.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I’m going to qualify all this right here at the outset by again saying, no offense intended toward Chip. He’s been at it for a long time, he knows exactly what he’s doing, he’s well aware his dog isn’t “playing,” and he’s well prepared to manage all that entails...
> 
> 
> 
> I’m just an internet chatroom pirate. I’ve never claimed to be a pet psychologist, but I do know prey. I understand prey. I’m not talking about chicken brained chicken killer off the charts prey. I’m talking about typical prey. Serviceable prey.
> 
> View attachment 561641
> 
> 
> The fact that this dog is not attempting to engage is self evident. He could easily engage right there, and I have no doubt he would on command, but he’s clearly not in defense mode. In that dog’s mind it’s a game, and the fact that he enjoys playing the game is also self evident.
> 
> We talk about civil here, man bringing the fight to the dog, dog bringing the fight to the man, taking it to the streets, etc. I’m not criticizing any of that, but personally I do question it all in terms of myself, my dog, and real world application.
> 
> suffice it to say, if a bad guy resists my dog I’m going to get “real personal” real quick. So like Winners says about “top tier military dogs,” enough prey to carry a dog though the game is what gets the job done. Therein lies the problem, because extraordinary low prey dogs don’t play games. They think it’s for real, and if you keep drilling what was engineered to be “the protection game” into their heads, you end up with a highly aggressive dog, which I really don’t care to deal with. A typical old fashioned SchH prey monkey is more than enough protection for me. I know how to select it, I know how to train it, _and I know how to deploy it. _I’m not saying that's “better” I’m saying that’s all I know.
> 
> *Well, not quite. I also know better than to bitetrain a livestock protection breed, because it’s not a game to them either. They think it’s real too, and anybody who ever trained one lived to regret it, because it ruined the dog.* _No longer capable of the actual work for which it was intended. _Livestock protection breeds have extra low prey as well, and I hazard to guess there's a correlation between that and the gsd’s livestock tending parentstocks. Not a genetic relationship, just similar selection criteria, once upon a time.
> 
> Remember, gsd was coaxed from 3 way composite breedings between thuringian, wurttemberger, and swabian. I can’t say with any certainty what ingredient which type brought to the mix, but given the geographical relationship of thuringia to east germany and czechoslovakia, plus the fact the czech and slovak militaries did additional wolf crosses (prey drive?), maybe thuringian brought the defense? And maybe the old ddr gsd tended toward that thuringian component? Just a wild guess...
> 
> At any rate, since we’re down here in the breeding section I’ll circle back on topic by suggesting that if you attempt to plan a litter with mainstream modern protection goals in mind, use at least one parent with typical prey drives. Because if you pawn extraordinary low prey pups off on homes with mainstream protection goals, they won’t earn lots of titles. Hence the fact that upon reunification, all the ddr lines were soon absorbed by wgw, z ps, et al.
> 
> Getting back to me and my 7/8 ddr level 11 pirate protection dog, I’m trying to decide what to cross him with in a breeding scheme? My vet is hot after some bsd/dsd, but really I feel like there’s enough of that going on already. I’m more inclined to do something along the lines of heeler or bc? Asd or rough collie maybe? I haven’t quite put my finger on it yet? As far as prey is concerned, there’s prey somewhere in my gsd’s ped and I’m sure some of that will express in his offspring no matter what, so I can use anything I want.
> I just can’t seem to make up my mind what I want, and that’s totally out of character for me. I’m an intj, and that makes me a little eccentric, but it also makes me a natural born judge, which in turn makes me an above average breeder. I know what I know, and I know what I don’t know, and right now I just really don’t know? Anybody got any ideas? don’t be shy. There is no wrong answer.
> 
> View attachment 561642
> 
> "vollmond vom piratwald"
> 
> 4 dogs x 5 years. Inbred backcross program will throwback to some long lost type, but you have to play it loose. Adapt the program according to what emerges from it. Ped isn’t etched in stone, only a “first draft” blueprint. I’m going to dna the whole thing and “map” the resulting genome. Fun stuff.


Deploy a prey monkey for protection? Please elaborate. 

Manfred Heyne's dogs worked sheep and did bitework with success. 

You forget, the GSD was also tasked with protecting the shepherd himself from robbers and similar ilk. 

One of the mods here has a GSD, Mal, ACD mix. Maybe they will chime in regarding your breeding plans.

Nice pup, 6 months, had exposure, no smoke and mirrors, not in prey.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

you mooks don't even know how to read a ped...

next please?


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> We talk about civil here, man bringing the fight to the dog, dog bringing the fight to the man, taking it to the streets, etc. I’m not criticizing any of that, but personally I do question it all in terms of myself, my dog, and real world application.
> 
> suffice it to say, if a bad guy resists my dog I’m going to get “real personal” real quick. So like Winners says about “top tier military dogs,” enough prey to carry a dog though the game is what gets the job done. Therein lies the problem, because extraordinary low prey dogs don’t play games. They think it’s for real, and if you keep drilling what was engineered to be “the protection game” into their heads, you end up with a highly aggressive dog, which I really don’t care to deal with.


So I'm clearing a parkade with Billy one night back in about 1994, high crime/high drug use area. Drunk college type wanna be tough guy gets in my face. I'm 24, 125lbs with my boots on, no radio, no phone just a girl and her dog facing off against a guy with 80lbs and 8 inches on me. And his equally drunk, equally large buddies. 
Let me be really clear here, in Canada we don't carry guns! Until sometime in the early 2000's we were not allowed to carry anything! No batons, not even pepper spray. I had a flashlight (love my mag light) and my dog. 
It's not a game for me. It cannot be a game for the dogs. I counted on those dogs to get me home every night, because I had no one else watching my back. 
Billy was not aggressive. He was my dude, my pizza sharing, singing along with the radio partner. 
That night was one of our calmer encounters. They started circling, mouthpiece got a right he never saw coming and Billy let the rest know he wasn't playing. (Guys never expect women to actually throw a punch). They took their toys and went home. On my command the dog stayed put until he needed to watch my back, which kept him from becoming a target and getting us both hurt. Not aggressive. Pure defense.
I have been stabbed twice, held at gunpoint, had my arm busted with a pipe and my head with a bottle. I have been threatened with needles and pelted with beer bottles. None of it was a game. 
Billy was Buds uncle, sire line, ped I shared earlier in the thread. Bud was washed for aggression. Because he was pretty convinced that a threat to me should stop breathing, permanently. I get that that's bad, sort of. But he was one dog out of 3-4 generations. We didn't need a game, we needed serious.
Other people use what they need and what works for them, but the DDR dogs were not known for high prey drive and I like it. I am ok with the slower training and later maturing. It's different from what you may know but it's all I know. It was what my boss wanted, it's what he trained me to handle.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Heynes was the last of the breeders of true herding lines. His best dogs had more than enough prey drive to take down a large, powerful sheep to keep them in line. He saw the trend of exaggerated prey drive for sport as a detriment to the breed and shunned the high lines which the SV promoted to the poor shepherds luring them with the result of getting more money for pups at the great loss of genetic obedience which made the true herding lines so special. 
Many years ago, breeding GSDs to Mals was pretty much a disaster. 
I still think you are being way too esoteric in your conception of breeding. Expose and challenge your pup to as many things as possible that you think will result in a reliable assessment of your dog which is easier said than done. Then research dogs/breeds in which you can gain reliable knowledge of the likelihood of what their dominant genetics are. Even then, if you breed, you have to hold back whole litters, evaluate them and experiment. There is no secret sauce recipe. Experience training a dog to a high level is invaluable but still doesn’t mean the dog will be a producer. The best shortcut I have ever heard of is to look for pedigrees filled with producers of producers based on what your goals are and you need a lot of firsthand knowledge of the dogs’ handlers in the pedigree to get accurate information. I think that is why it becomes apparent that there are so many mediocre breeders. The breeder of David’s dog has dedicated her life to learning about dogs and lines. I think the breeder of my dog falls in a similar category but probably flies by the seat of his pants a bit more but has a good idea of what his breeding stock produces. 
Jiri Novotny of Jinopo was a breed warden at z PS and has decades of knowledge breeding thousands of dogs, but IMO has sold out to commercial breeding. More and more you see his lines going back to Fero when early on, his dogs were true working lines, but there is more money in the pet market of naive buyers who buy a diluted version of what he use to produce. They are reeled in by big heads, large bone, and dark sables who are defensive which makes them appear strong. Some are but more and more their bark is worse than their bite. Same is true for old time schutzhund breeders who breed BSP champions who are not the best working dogs.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> you mooks don't even know how to read a ped...
> 
> next please?


There are over 400 dog breeds out there. Why don't you research breeds vs pedigree and find a breed that has your required genetics? Maybe another breed can bring it all home for you.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Just to complicate things, I know a few people in the states who breed non FCI KNPV Mal X’s and they are not at all anal about selecting a breeding. They will try it and if the litter is ****, they end up in a five gallon bucket. I have heard of some bitches who are nervy as **** that produce very well with the right stud. I have the feeling with all the stuff going on in the world, if there is not a total collapse, genetic breedings totally based on genetic science will produce the dogs people want. There will be no guessing. With people you get into medical ethics, but not so much with dogs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think the breeder of my dog falls in a similar category but probably flies by the seat of his pants a bit more but has a good idea of what his breeding stock produces.







have you watched this video to the end? I couldn't be more impressed. I mean yeah, those guys are having a ball, and yeah they try to make the vids on their channel entertaining, but I don't get the impression they're "fooling around" about the pups they produce at all. I say you'd be _hard pressed_ to find a better breeder.

you don't _necessarily_ have to keep back whole litters, if you wean early and evaluate often

also, bioengineering is in it's infancy. A few years back USDA started selling that hard, and a lot of the operators who survived don't rely on it anymore, because it didn't work for them.

Dog breeding is changing, but in terms of performance breeding the big change is coming by way of sanctioned crossbreeding. Inbreeding is already regulated EU/FCI, so where are they going to go? AKC is slowly beginning to transition from "breed groups" to "breed types."


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I’m going to qualify all this right here at the outset by again saying, no offense intended toward Chip. He’s been at it for a long time, he knows exactly what he’s doing, he’s well aware his dog isn’t “playing,” and he’s well prepared to manage all that entails...
> 
> 
> 
> I’m just an internet chatroom pirate. I’ve never claimed to be a pet psychologist, but I do know prey. I understand prey. I’m not talking about chicken brained chicken killer off the charts prey. I’m talking about typical prey. Serviceable prey.
> 
> View attachment 561641
> 
> 
> The fact that this dog is not attempting to engage is self evident. He could easily engage right there, and I have no doubt he would on command, but he’s clearly not in defense mode. In that dog’s mind it’s a game, and the fact that he enjoys playing the game is also self evident.
> 
> We talk about civil here, man bringing the fight to the dog, dog bringing the fight to the man, taking it to the streets, etc. I’m not criticizing any of that, but personally I do question it all in terms of myself, my dog, and real world application.
> 
> suffice it to say, if a bad guy resists my dog I’m going to get “real personal” real quick. So like Winners says about “top tier military dogs,” enough prey to carry a dog though the game is what gets the job done. Therein lies the problem, because extraordinary low prey dogs don’t play games. They think it’s for real, and if you keep drilling what was engineered to be “the protection game” into their heads, you end up with a highly aggressive dog, which I really don’t care to deal with. A typical old fashioned SchH prey monkey is more than enough protection for me. I know how to select it, I know how to train it, and I know how to deploy it. I’m not saying that's “better” I’m saying that’s all I know.
> 
> Well, not quite. I also know better than to bitetrain a livestock protection breed, because it’s not a game to them either. They think it’s real too, and anybody who ever trained one lived to regret it, because it ruined the dog. No longer capable of the actual work for which it was intended. Livestock protection breeds have extra low prey as well, and I hazard to guess there's a correlation between that and the gsd’s livestock tending parentstocks. Not a genetic relationship, just similar selection criteria, once upon a time.
> 
> Remember, gsd was coaxed from 3 way composite breedings between thuringian, wurttemberger, and swabian. I can’t say with any certainty what ingredient which type brought to the mix, but given the geographical relationship of thuringia to east germany and czechoslovakia, plus the fact the czech and slovak militaries did additional wolf crosses (prey drive?), maybe thuringian brought the defense? And maybe the old ddr gsd tended toward that thuringian component? Just a wild guess...
> 
> At any rate, since we’re down here in the breeding section I’ll circle back on topic by suggesting that if you attempt to plan a litter with mainstream modern protection goals in mind, use at least one parent with typical prey drives. Because if you pawn extraordinary low prey pups off on homes with mainstream protection goals, they won’t earn lots of titles. Hence the fact that upon reunification, all the ddr lines were soon absorbed by wgw, z ps, et al.
> 
> Getting back to me and my 7/8 ddr level 11 pirate protection dog, I’m trying to decide what to cross him with in a breeding scheme? My vet is hot after some bsd/dsd, but really I feel like there’s enough of that going on already. I’m more inclined to do something along the lines of heeler or bc? Asd or rough collie maybe? I haven’t quite put my finger on it yet? As far as prey is concerned, there’s prey somewhere in my gsd’s ped and I’m sure some of that will express in his offspring no matter what, so I can use anything I want.
> I just can’t seem to make up my mind what I want, and that’s totally out of character for me. I’m an intj, and that makes me a little eccentric, but it also makes me a natural born judge, which in turn makes me an above average breeder. I know what I know, and I know what I don’t know, and right now I just really don’t know? Anybody got any ideas? don’t be shy. There is no wrong answer.
> 
> View attachment 561642
> 
> "vollmond vom piratwald"
> 
> 4 dogs x 5 years. Inbred backcross program will throwback to some long lost type, but you have to play it loose. Adapt the program according to what emerges from it. Ped isn’t etched in stone, only a “first draft” blueprint. I’m going to dna the whole thing and “map” the resulting genome. Fun stuff.


I'm not going to comment on the breeding thing.

It seems you are saying that because top tier military dogs are successfully working in extreme prey drive that a PPD11 dog would do the same. These are 2 different worlds with extremely different criteria for success. 

I'm sorry but I think this is a bit delusional. You are connecting dots that shouldn't be connected. A military handler has a job. They train, utilize and care for their dog. That is not the case for the typical PPD handler.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> you mooks don't even know how to read a ped...
> 
> next please?


This is inappropriate and against forum rules. Quit the name calling. This isn't that kind of forum.

I now you think you are funny but that doesn't fly here.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Bvds,
That video had the least to do with my decision to go with this breeding because it shows very little of the dog’s performance. I do think that because the Slovak Police who bred the Dog in the video which is the sire of my dog, wanted him to come back from Canada speaks of him being a good producer. The breeder of my dog bought the dog in the video as a young pup. He is originally from Czechoslovakia and has some old friends/connections in Europe who can tell him how a particular dog is producing which was the case with my dog’s dam. I was already familiar with the exposure Canczech did with their pups and it is far beyond what the Slovak Police program does. I have seen video of seven week old pups in a harness and sent down a zip line about ten feet off the ground. I saw a video of a very young pup in a harness being flown around by a remote controlled helicopter. They expose their pups to gunfire before their eyes are open as well as Dremel their nails. They exposed my pup to environmental stressors that I was not able to, and they get a good sense of predicting pup’s potential. But I would not have got my dog to where he is without the excellent help of the trainer I work with who is young enough to be my son. I have learned so much from him that most of what I thought I knew is obsolete, yet many people still train the way I use to. All dogs have issues and if you can’t identify them and teach the dog how to push through them, there is no growth. I used to think genetics were the gold standard and to a degree they are but very good training can yield very good results and raise the threshold of a dog’s genetic shortcomings.


----------



## Bearshandler

There’s a lot of talk here about the genetics of the dog. You can’t change genetics, having a dog genetically predisposed to doing what you want makes things easier, and the genetic capabilities of the dog can limit the level he’s able to perform at. At the end of the day though, I’m not training my dog to be what he genetically would have been without me. I’m training my dog to be the very best version of himself that we can make. If he had weak nerves, I would work him plenty of slow exposure. If he was hectic in drive, I would work on impulse control. If he wasn’t confident, I would put in plenty of positions to win and so on. I think a lot of what is said here over emphasizes genetics, and undersells training.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> There’s a lot of talk here about the genetics of the dog. You can’t change genetics, having a dog genetically predisposed to doing what you want makes things easier, and the genetic capabilities of the dog can limit the level he’s able to perform at. At the end of the day though, I’m not training my dog to be what he genetically would have been without me. I’m training my dog to be the very best version of himself that we can make. If he had weak nerves, I would work him plenty of slow exposure. If he was hectic in drive, I would work on impulse control. If he wasn’t confident, I would put in plenty of positions to win and so on. I think a lot of what is said here over emphasizes genetics, and undersells training.


Because at the end of the day, if training fails, you are left with the genetics and those genetics can result in dire consequences. 

I have yet to see any trainer or rehabber that doesn't advocate for a lifetime of training or reinforcement in order to maintain learned behaviors.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Because at the end of the day, if training fails, you are left with the genetics and those genetics can result in dire consequences.
> 
> I have yet to see any trainer or rehabber that doesn't advocate for a lifetime of training or reinforcement in order to maintain learned behaviors.


That would lead me to the questions of why training failed and why the dog was put in a position to fail.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> That would lead me to the questions of why training failed and why the dog was put in a position to fail.


Training can fail because nothing is perfect. Training can fail because genetics matter. Dogs can be put in the position to fail because of handler incompetence. Dogs can be put in the position to fail because the handler underrated genetics. Of course there are many other variations.


----------



## Bearshandler

I’m not sayin training doesn’t fail. Everything can fail. I’m saying the importance of it is not stressed here. Fortuna Eruditis Favet.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> Fortuna Eruditis Favet.


that's what I'm talking about! love it!!



David Winners said:


> It seems you are saying that because top tier military dogs are successfully working in extreme prey drive that a PPD11 dog would do the same.


no, not by any stretch. top tier prey is not well suited to sites/situations like mine.
I’m saying _just enough_ prey to do hidden sleeve is _more than enough_ protection for me, here.
Hidden sleeve = level 111 pirate protection dog.

























Genetics? well, believe it or not _some people do_ train other breeds. Training? Well, try training a dalmatian or whatever. Genetics = nature, training = nurture.

natura quod, nutrio

I gleaned a TON of inspiration from canczech’s puppy exercises






this video really struck me as well. Something just clicked in my brain? Then I came across a decrepit old HUGE cedar swingset. Free for the taking, just tear it down and haul it off, so I did. Now I'm building a mini SAR style puppy training course out of it.


----------



## Bearshandler

I guess what I’m saying is the quality of the dog is determined more by the quality of the handler than genetics.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I’m not sayin training doesn’t fail. Everything can fail. I’m saying the importance of it is not stressed here. Fortuna Eruditis Favet.


Perhaps because training is not passed on to the offspring. Or maybe the training compensates for weaknesses that consequently don't allow for good breeding choices. Maybe the training is sometimes more of a reflection of the trainer than of the dog.


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> I guess what I’m saying is the quality of the dog is determined more by the quality of the handler than genetics.


I absolutely disagree. Because a good dog can rise above even terrible handling.
A good handler can overcome flaws in a dog but they are always there.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

genetics? yes. training? yes.

but I'm telling you, and I PROMISE I know what I'm talking about here:

*do not underestimate the value of imprint/exposure from 4 - 7 weeks*

makes all the difference in the world for the rest of the dog's life


----------



## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> I absolutely disagree. Because a good dog can rise above even terrible handling.
> A good handler can overcome flaws in a dog but they are always there.


I’ve never seen a good handler or good trainer with a bad dog.


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> I’ve never seen a good handler or good trainer with a bad dog.


Exactly, but put that same dog with a less experienced or weaker handler and the flaws appear.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I’ve never seen a good handler or good trainer with a bad dog.


There are plenty of top notch handlers/trainers/competitors that have washed dogs. Sometimes they are with dogs that they should have washed.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There are plenty of top notch handlers/trainers/competitors that have washed dogs. Sometimes they are with dogs that they should have washed.


Those dogs are washed because they don’t work to that trainer’s standards. The doesn’t mean they can’t work or are bad dogs. Just because a dog doesn’t work, doesn’t make it bad.


----------



## jakubnovotny

Bearshandler said:


> I’ve never seen a good handler or good trainer with a bad dog.







Try @1:35 for an example


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> Those dogs are washed because they don’t work to that trainer’s standards. The doesn’t mean they can’t work or are bad dogs. Just because a dog doesn’t work, doesn’t make it bad.


Evidently those trainers don't agree with you. Bad is subjective.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> that's what I'm talking about! love it!!
> 
> 
> 
> no, not by any stretch. top tier prey is not well suited to sites/situations like mine.
> I’m saying _just enough_ prey to do hidden sleeve is _more than enough_ protection for me, here.
> Hidden sleeve = level 111 pirate protection dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genetics? well, believe it or not _some people do_ train other breeds. Training? Well, try training a dalmatian or whatever. Genetics = nature, training = nurture.
> 
> natura quod, nutrio
> 
> I gleaned a TON of inspiration from canczech’s puppy exercises
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this video really struck me as well. Something just clicked in my brain? Then I came across a decrepit old HUGE cedar swingset. Free for the taking, just tear it down and haul it off, so I did. Now I'm building a mini SAR style puppy training course out of it.


I hope that when you get your mini SAR training course done that you will start posting pictures and videos of your dog instead of random internet pictures. Google is everyone's friend, not just yours.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

jakubnovotny said:


> Try @1:35 for an example


Someone must have imprinted them wrong. 😬


----------



## berno von der seeweise

"vollmond vom piratwald"

if I had my druthers I'd be working w/ a highline foundation on this


----------



## Sabis mom

You know, it always makes me a bit sad to see dogs that are inadequately training or simply not suited pushed into situations they can't handle.
Look at the body language on some of those dogs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I hope that when you get your mini SAR training course done that you will start posting pictures and videos of your dog instead of random internet pictures. Google is everyone's friend, not just yours.


 I'll document a litter from start to finish here just for you


----------



## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Someone must have imprinted them wrong.


You just made me choke on my coffee!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'll document a litter from start to finish here just for you


After what you previously posted on another thread about your own pup's raising and training, I don't think I will have the heart to follow. I tend to view my dogs as more than livestock.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

It's hard. You can't be emotional. You have to be clinical. Intestinal fortitude.

There's a line you cross, at some point, and there's no going back. You can't undo what's been done, and either you know in your gut you're doing right, or you quit and repent. This is why I'll never breed purebred gsd x purebred gsd again.

frankly I believed I'd never touch another gsd, ever; until decades later, fate delivered one to my door


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> It's hard. You can't be emotional. You have to be clinical. Intestinal fortitude.
> 
> There's a line you cross, at some point, and there's no going back. You can't undo what's been done, and either you know in your gut you're doing right, or you quit and repent. This is why I'll never breed purebred gsd x purebred gsd again.
> 
> frankly I believed I'd never touch another gsd, ever; until decades later, fate delivered one to my door


I think your intestinal fortitude isn't working as well as you think. It seems your gut is misleading you. Your dog is an animal, treat him as a tool if you want, but respect that animal that you want to be able to "deploy for your purposes".


----------



## jakubnovotny

> Culling comes with the territory here, Dr. Blasiole. I raised a family in these woods. I had to quit hunting shortly after we started raising our own meat because the freezer is always full. I’ve done so much culling in fact that I coined my very own little latin culling motto years ago: “*praecisionem exactus*.” -* berno von der seeweise*


LOL


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

jakubnovotny said:


> LOL


Is he bragging about shooting puppies? 😮


----------



## Nscullin

berno von der seeweise said:


> but I'm telling you, and I PROMISE I know what I'm talking about here:
> 
> *do not underestimate the value of imprint/exposure from 4 - 7 weeks*


Prove it.. 

Where’s your litters that are so great?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sabis mom

Berno, number 1 you aren't likely to find a great deal of support coming to a breed specific forum and slamming that breed, and number 2 we tend to be very much a put your money were your mouth is bunch. 
If the pups you raise are so awesome prove it.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Evidently those trainers don't agree with you. Bad is subjective.


I’m not sure I follow you. Is this what the trainers you’re talking about told you? I’ve never heard a trainer say the phrase that’s a bad dog, not in the way we’re talking here. When I’ve talked to them about the dogs they wash, it’s usually they weren’t working at level I want, or health, or so on. Yes bad is subjective. I will tell you I believe there are no bad dogs only bad trainers.


----------



## Bearshandler

jakubnovotny said:


> Try @1:35 for an example


Show me the dog you’ve trained.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Responsible, ethical breeders do not pawn problems or mistakes off on unsuspecting homes. I assure you it’s not funny, and it’s certainly not fun, but it does come with the territory.

Once the decision is final, get it over with ASAP. Don’t put it off. Don’t procrastinate, don’t angst, just do your duty. Done and over with in less than a blink of your eye. Put it behind you and move on. Time and resources are finite. You can’t devote either or to a cull without putting your get at a disadvantage.

novotny should have linked to the thread. No doubt _volumes_ more bernowisdoms were right there for the pickin’...


Nscullin said:


> Prove it..
> 
> Where’s your litters that are so great?


 I am _chomping at the bit_ here for a litter and will keep you posted. Promise.


----------



## Bearshandler

jakubnovotny said:


> Try @1:35 for an example


What’s interesting is that dog was two in that video. How does he look in this one?


----------



## jakubnovotny

Bearshandler said:


> Show me the dog you’ve trained.


What I've trained is irrelevant.

According to United Schutzhund Club of America:

*Character*
_The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (*with strong nerves*) in terms of character, *self-assured*, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, *guard, protection*, service and herding dog._






Breed Standards | United Schutzhund Clubs of America


The United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the “Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)” in Germany. USCA is a member of the “World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs” and...




www.germanshepherddog.com





You said you've never seen a good handler/trainer with a "bad" dog. IMO, that dog in the video does NOT meet the breed standard and therefore is a "bad" dog according to the standard.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> I’m not sure I follow you. Is this what the trainers you’re talking about told you? I’ve never heard a trainer say the phrase that’s a bad dog, not in the way we’re talking here. When I’ve talked to them about the dogs they wash, it’s usually they weren’t working at level I want, or health, or so on. Yes bad is subjective. I will tell you I believe there are no bad dogs only bad trainers.


Bad is subjective. It's okay to say that a dog is bad. They aren't kids. We don't have to give them all trophies. Poor genetics, mental crossed wires, ill health, etc., are a reflection of the dog, not the trainer.


----------



## jakubnovotny

Bearshandler said:


> What’s interesting is that dog was two in that video. How does he look in this one?


Are you kidding me lol.

It's no wonder why good German Shepherds are getting harder to find.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> Responsible, ethical breeders do not pawn problems or mistakes off on unsuspecting homes. I assure you it’s not funny, and it’s certainly not fun, but it does come with the territory.
> 
> Once the decision is final, get it over with ASAP. Don’t put it off. Don’t procrastinate, don’t angst, just do your duty. Done and over with in less than a blink of your eye. Put it behind you and move on. Time and resources are finite. You can’t devote either or to a cull without putting your get at a disadvantage.
> 
> novotny should have linked to the thread. No doubt _volumes_ more bernowisdoms were right there for the pickin’...
> 
> 
> I am _chomping at the bit_ here for a litter and will keep you posted. Promise.


Why don't you link to the thread?

Just because a puppy is not up to your expectations doesn't mean it's not a perfect pup for someone else. Just place it in an appropriate home.

So tell me, how are you, Rionel, Chris Svoboda, and Jakubnovotny related?


----------



## jakubnovotny

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why don't you link to the thread?
> 
> Just because a puppy is not up to your expectations doesn't mean it's not a perfect pup for someone else. Just place it in an appropriate home.
> 
> So tell me, how are you, Rionel, Chris Svoboda, and Jakubnovotny related?


I'm his dad lol.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> Responsible, ethical breeders do not pawn problems or mistakes off on unsuspecting homes. I assure you it’s not funny, and it’s certainly not fun, but it does come with the territory.
> 
> Once the decision is final, get it over with ASAP. Don’t put it off. Don’t procrastinate, don’t angst, just do your duty. Done and over with in less than a blink of your eye. Put it behind you and move on. Time and resources are finite. You can’t devote either or to a cull without putting your get at a disadvantage.
> 
> novotny should have linked to the thread. No doubt _volumes_ more bernowisdoms were right there for the pickin’...
> 
> 
> I am _chomping at the bit_ here for a litter and will keep you posted. Promise.


You mean with your centuries of experience you don't have ANY video?


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Bad is subjective. It's okay to say that a dog is bad. They aren't kids. We don't have to give them all trophies. Poor genetics, mental crossed wires, ill health, etc., are a reflection of the dog, not the trainer.


The vast majority of problems I see with dogs are handler related. That is to say, put the dog with someone better and the dog will do better. Health is a different conversation as far as I’m concerned. As for trophies, I’ve never seen a dog show me theirs, so I don’t think that matters.


----------



## Bearshandler

jakubnovotny said:


> Are you kidding me lol.
> 
> It's no wonder why good German Shepherds are getting harder to find.


That dog was under prepared in that first video. I asked you how he did in the second one. You didn’t offer anything about it at all. If you don’t like showlines, that’s fine. Just come out and say it.


----------



## jakubnovotny

berno von der seeweise said:


> novotny should have linked to the thread. No doubt _volumes_ more* bernowisdoms* were right there for the pickin’...


_Culling comes with the territory here, Dr. Blasiole. I raised a family in these woods. I had to quit hunting shortly after we started raising our own meat because the freezer is always full. I’ve done so much culling in fact that I coined my very own little latin culling motto years ago: “praecisionem exactus.”_

As a bonus, I linked what you'd do if you actually found a "good" dog:

_"He was an outstanding specimen" - bernowisdoms_

Couldn't handle a good dog, so had to "rehome" him 

lol


----------



## jakubnovotny

Bearshandler said:


> That dog was under prepared in that first video. I asked you how he did in the second one. You didn’t offer anything about it at all. If you don’t like showlines, that’s fine. Just come out and say it.


That dog clearly does NOT have the genetics for a working dog, period.


----------



## Bearshandler

jakubnovotny said:


> That dog clearly does NOT have the genetics for a working dog, period.


Define working dog.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> The vast majority of problems I see with dogs are handler related. That is to say, put the dog with someone better and the dog will do better. Health is a different conversation as far as I’m concerned. As for trophies, I’ve never seen a dog show me theirs, so I don’t think that matters.


I agree that most dog problems are created by the handler but that doesn't mean that there aren't any bad dogs. There's a lot of them. It doesn't matter if the dog might do better with another handler. Some dogs are simply bad dogs. 

Of course dogs don't show you their trophies. Most don't have any. Like I said, we don't give them trophies for participation.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree that most dog problems are created by the handler but that doesn't mean that there aren't any bad dogs. There's a lot of them. It doesn't matter if the dog might do better with another handler. Some dogs are simply bad dogs.
> 
> Of course dogs don't show you their trophies. Most don't have any. Like I said, we don't give them trophies for participation.


That is probably the closest we’re going to get to agreeing.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> You mean with your centuries of experience you don't have ANY video?


if I have to wait to showcase my new _NEXT LEVEL_ *state of the art* Kynological Laboratory (!!!), so can you. Somebody will go into heat around here eventually. Be forewarned, I expect I'll have to dock at least _some_ f1 tails. My investors won't abide big 'ol gsdxgs tails knocking the lamps off their endtables. I'm only trying to raise the bar here, Winners, and you may not get to see_ anything_ if you don't moderate your new friend


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> if I have to wait to showcase my new _NEXT LEVEL_ *state of the art* Kynological Laboratory (!!!), so can you. Somebody will go into heat around here eventually. Be forewarned, I expect I'll have to dock at least _some_ f1 tails. My investors aren't going to abide big 'ol gsdxgs tails knocking the lamps off of their endtables. I'm only trying to raise the bar here, Winners, and you may not get to see_ anything_ if you don't moderate your new friend


If nothing else, you are consistent


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Bearshandler said:


> I guess what I’m saying is the quality of the dog is determined more by the quality of the handler than genetics.


 I think there's a good deal of truth in this. I'm certainly not the world's greatest trainer, so the world's greatest dog wouldn't look his best on the end of my lead.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> if I have to wait to showcase my new _NEXT LEVEL_ *state of the art* Kynological Laboratory (!!!), so can you. Somebody will go into heat around here eventually. Be forewarned, I expect I'll have to dock at least _some_ f1 tails. My investors won't abide big 'ol gsdxgs tails knocking the lamps off their endtables. I'm only trying to raise the bar here, Winners, and you may not get to see_ anything_ if you don't moderate your new friend


Are you disturbed by Jakub's input?


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I guess what I’m saying is the quality of the dog is determined more by the quality of the handler than genetics.


I completely disagree with this.

I can take a student that has never held a leash before and help them become a decent handler in a couple months. You put them with a crap dog and you get crap. You put them with a rock star and you get a good team. The handler is often the dumb end of the leash.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

that's great Winners, but you can't teach everybody 

edit: I take that back. I should have said "if only"

I don't doubt your training prowess for a nanosecond


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> that's great Winners, but you can't teach everybody


But he sure can imprint a puppy and post the videos to prove it!


----------



## berno von der seeweise

berno von der seeweise said:


> that's great Winners, but you can't teach everybody


I take that back. I should have said "if only"

I don't doubt your training prowess for a nanosecond


----------



## Sabis mom

I have you all beat! The puppy that I imprinted can do this


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I completely disagree with this.
> 
> I can take a student that has never held a leash before and help them become a decent handler in a couple months. You put them with a crap dog and you get crap. You put them with a rock star and you get a good team. The handler is often the dumb end of the leash.


How many times would you say the issues you see are the dogs fault?


----------



## Sabis mom

A dog is a dog. A weak dog can be made to appear stronger through training and handling but you cannot make it what it isn't.
Most people that meet Shadow think she is awesome. They have no clue.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> How many times would you say the issues you see are the dogs fault?


If genetics weren't critical then why not go to a pound and save a life? 

Dog breeds are purpose bred to genetically exhibit specific behavior traits. Form follows function. This is what gives us dog breeds capable of being highly successful in specialized performances. 

Border Collies move sheep, Cattle dogs drive half wild cattle, GSDs tend sheep by acting as a living fence, Beagles bay as they trail rabbits, Labs retrieve. It's what they do. Trainers only guide and reinforce the behaviors to use them to the trainer's benefit. The trainer does not create the natural abilities.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> How many times would you say the issues you see are the dogs fault?


After rigorous selection in Europe, so the cards are stacked in your favor, then initial training at the kennels, I'm going to say less than 50% of the dogs will meet military requirements, and 5% will fail to meet law enforcement requirements.

This is with a team of experienced trainers and a company with vested interest in making every dog work.

These are all dog failures. Genetic issues. Lack of hunt. Lack of confidence. Nerve issues.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If genetics weren't critical then why not go to a pound and save a life?
> 
> Dog breeds are purpose bred to genetically exhibit specific behavior traits. Form follows function. This is what gives us dog breeds capable of being highly successful in specialized performances.
> 
> Border Collies move sheep, Cattle dogs drive half wild cattle, GSDs tend sheep by acting as a living fence, Beagles bay as they trail rabbits, Labs retrieve. It's what they do. Trainers only guide and reinforce the behaviors to use them to the trainer's benefit. The trainer does not create the natural abilities.





Bearshandler said:


> I think of it like building a house. The genetics are the bricks or materials you have to work with. A terrible builder with the best material is still going to build a terrible house. A great builder can still give you a pretty good house with terrible materials, but even he needs something to work with. An experienced builder is also going to have his preferred materials that he does his best work with. Having the right genetics is important, otherwise you’re putting a hard cap on what you can do. I also believe after a certain point the genetics stop being what’s most important and it all comes down to training. The higher the level you want to perform at, the longer those genetics will matter. A big part of it is matching the dog to the handler and training style.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If genetics weren't critical then why not go to a pound and save a life?
> 
> Dog breeds are purpose bred to genetically exhibit specific behavior traits. Form follows function. This is what gives us dog breeds capable of being highly successful in specialized performances.
> 
> Border Collies move sheep, Cattle dogs drive half wild cattle, GSDs tend sheep by acting as a living fence, Beagles bay as they trail rabbits, Labs retrieve. It's what they do. Trainers only guide and reinforce the behaviors to use them to the trainer's benefit. The trainer does not create the natural abilities.


Never said genetics weren’t critical or that they didn’t matter. It’s true you can’t create natural behaviors through training. That’s pretty contradictory.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Not getting through to you. Let me try another way.

Ex. 1 Dog A was raised with love and adored. One day dog A put his owner in the hospital. When the owner finally came home, dog A tried to put her back in the hospital and succeeded. 

Ex. 2 Dogs B and C escaped their yard and bit a handyman across the street. The neighbor next door to where the handyman was working heard a commotion and looked out her door. She saw what was going on and yelled: Hey! Dogs B and C ran for her. She ran into her house. Dogs B and C started to lunge up and body slam her door...for two hours until animal control could arrive.

You feel free to think that things might have been different with another trainer. Maybe that is correct. Regardless, I say those are bad dogs.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not getting through to you. Let me try another way.
> 
> Ex. 1 Dog A was raised with love and adored. One day dog A put his owner in the hospital. When the owner finally came home, dog A tried to put her back in the hospital and succeeded.
> 
> Ex. 2 Dogs B and C escaped their yard and bit a handyman across the street. The neighbor next door to where the handyman was working heard a commotion and looked out her door. She saw what was going on and yelled: Hey! Dogs B and C ran for her. She ran into her house. Dogs B and C started to lunge up and body slam her door...for two hours until animal control could arrive.
> 
> You feel free to think that things might have been different with another trainer. Maybe that is correct. Regardless, I say those are bad dogs.


When I make the statement there are no bad dogs, that is an absolute. Absolutes are likely to be wrong. You can probably find an example of a dog I say should be put down pretty easy. Those are good examples to your point. I don’t think you read what I said though. Most issues are training related. I didn’t see those dogs or anything about them. I can’t say for certain. Would you say that scenario is more or less common than this one?


Maria Hera said:


> Hi guys I posted a while back about my puppy Levi things have gone from bad to worse he bit my friend and was barking non stop at him a few days later he bit my son Zack on other leg the 2 dogs were fighting and he got in the way I took my son hospital and he was prescribed antibiotics.We got a trainer in who Levi also bit he didn’t do much just overcharged me then the other day my friend offered to help train him she has some experience with dogs unfortunately it all went wrong my son told her not to pull his bed out his mouth she tried to so Levi bit her on both arms it saddens me to say this but she hit him and pushed him into the crate anyway what’s done is done I don’t think I can cope with Levi anymore I’m scared to be honest that he might really hurt someone next time .Had lots of advice from Southend dog training school and joined there Whitts app group if I could afford training classes it wouldn’t be a problem so know I have a 16 year old son crying in his room he is so attached to Levi and has been working really hard with training I don’t know what to do someone suggested I give him to the police force is that a good life for him ?its all getting so stressful and I’m worried about how my son will be if Levi goes 😢


----------



## berno von der seeweise

There's only one gold in a litter, and he/she is usually the first out of the box. Occasionally you'll have a hard time picking between 2 front runners, but normally there's a clearly identifiable silver.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just because a puppy is not up to your expectations doesn't mean it's not a perfect pup for someone else. Just place it in an appropriate home.


 it has nothing whatsoever to do with *expectations*

Not only is this kind of thinking wrong headed, it can be downright dangerous.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> When I make the statement there are no bad dogs, that is an absolute. Absolutes are likely to be wrong. You can probably find an example of a dog I say should be put down pretty easy. Those are good examples to your point. I don’t think you read what I said though. Most issues are training related. I didn’t see those dogs or anything about them. I can’t say for certain. Would you say that scenario is more or less common than this one?


I am not in disagreement that there are plenty of incompetent owners. It is one of the reasons I am so vocal against the use of aversives.... for wanting instant fixes for something that someone inadvertently trained for months or maybe longer. 

But I am still adamant that there are a lot of bad dogs regardless of the trainer.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> it has nothing whatsoever to do with *expectations*
> 
> Not only is this kind of thinking wrong headed, it can be downright dangerous.


Okay, just because it had two heads doesn't mean it can't be a perfect fit in another home.


----------



## Bearshandler

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not in disagreement that there are plenty of incompetent owners. It is one of the reasons I am so vocal against the use of aversives.... for wanting instant fixes for something that someone inadvertently trained for months or maybe longer.
> 
> But I am still adamant that there are a lot of bad dogs regardless of the trainer.


My definition of a bad dog: a dog that cannot thrive amongst humans in any venue regardless of training, upbringing or handling. That I would say, is pretty rare. Bad owners, I’d say they are quite common. Bad trainers, those are too. I had one give me a card once.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Bearshandler said:


> My definition of a bad dog: a dog that cannot thrive amongst humans in any venue regardless of training, upbringing or handling. That I would say, is pretty rare. Bad owners, I’d say they are quite common. Bad trainers, those are too. I had one give me a card once.


I understand what you are saying but disagree. There are bad owners but there are a LOT of bad dogs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> there are a LOT of bad dogs.


because so few breeders cull

you aren't supposed to be breeding pet bunnies with these genetics

propensity to bite x notable temperament flaw = cull


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> because so few breeders cull
> 
> you aren't supposed to be breeding pet bunnies with these genetics


I was talking about dogs in general, not "these genetics ".


----------



## berno von der seeweise

sorry, I thought we were talking about working dogs here

my bad


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> sorry, I thought we were talking about working dogs here
> 
> my bad


That can depend on how you define working dogs.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

are we talkin' gsd here, or not?

gsd is by definition _SUPPOSED TO BE_ a working dog

no?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

...


----------



## berno von der seeweise

nevermind...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Don't be shy. Speak your mind.


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> There's only one gold in a litter, and he/she is usually the first out of the box. Occasionally you'll have a hard time picking between 2 front runners, but normally there's a clearly identifiable silver.


Disagree, strongly. 
If a breeder has done their job and knows their business litters should be largely uniform. It may happen that a particular pup shows a bit less, and historically those went to someone's little one as a first dog. That's not to say individual dogs don't have different personality traits or strengths.
This is the difference between studying pedigrees and studying dogs. 

You can sit here until doomsday studying your percentages and pedigrees or you could learn from breeders who have actually studied the dogs. 



berno von der seeweise said:


> because so few breeders cull
> 
> you aren't supposed to be breeding pet bunnies with these genetics
> 
> propensity to bite x notable temperament flaw = cull


At this point I have to question if you actually know what a temperament flaw is?
Because I'm not certain you have a solid handle on what a GSD should be, or how to raise one.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I really don't want to go here. I like you. You're the yin to the yang around here. Without you, we'd be all yang. But you talk about your dog's faults all the time, and now you demand the market be flooded with more of the same...

so, fine. you win. "save the puppies." kumbaya...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> I really don't want to go here. I like you. You're the yin to the yang around here. Without you, we'd be all yang. But you talk about your dog's faults all the time, and now you demand the market be flooded with more of the same...
> 
> so, fine. you win. "save the puppies." kumbaya...


Wow, that's a little bit of a low blow.


----------



## jakubnovotny

berno von der seeweise said:


> I really don't want to go here. I like you. You're the yin to the yang around here. Without you, we'd be all yang. But you talk about your dog's faults all the time, and now you demand the market be flooded with more of the same...
> 
> so, fine. you win. "save the puppies." kumbaya...


Didn't you dump an "outstanding" dog because you couldn't and didn't know how to handle him?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Wow, that's a little bit of a low blow.


you set it up and I knocked it down.

nice goin' mawl


----------



## berno von der seeweise

jakubnovotny said:


> Didn't you dump an "outstanding" dog because you couldn't and didn't know how to handle him?


you're in so far over your head here, "jack," I won't even waste my time 

(_that's a little inside joke between me and jack, everybody_)


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

jakubnovotny said:


> Didn't you dump an "outstanding" dog because you couldn't and didn't know how to handle him?


Do tell us the details.


----------



## Nscullin

berno von der seeweise said:


> you're in so far over your head here, "jack," I won't even waste my time
> 
> (_that's a little inside joke between me and jack, everybody_)


Yeah “jack” you better watch out. He reads a lot of books about dogs. And watches this website that’s filled with information only accessible by him. I think it’s called YouTube. 

Seriously though..how do I stop getting notifications from this thread?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> you set it up and I knocked it down.
> 
> nice goin' mawl


I set up nothing.


----------



## jakubnovotny

berno von der seeweise said:


> you're in so far over your head here, "jack," I won't even waste my time


_I read old ddr threads and see the phrase "be careful what you wish for" a lot. *I had to rehome a dog (not gsd) due to handler aggression years ago. 27 inches tall, well over 70lbs. *I used to throw his ball downhill, and using the steep incline to his advantage, he'd catch it on the bounce like 10 feet in the air. *He was an outstanding specimen.*_





> Didn't you dump an "outstanding" dog because you couldn't and didn't know how to handle him? - *jakubnovotny*


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

jakubnovotny said:


> _I read old ddr threads and see the phrase "be careful what you wish for" a lot. *I had to rehome a dog (not gsd) due to handler aggression years ago. 27 inches tall, well over 70lbs. *I used to throw his ball downhill, and using the steep incline to his advantage, he'd catch it on the bounce like 10 feet in the air. *He was an outstanding specimen.*_


Handler aggression? Sounds like a trainer problem.


----------



## jakubnovotny

berno von der seeweise said:


> (_that's a little inside joke between me and jack, everybody_)


The only joke is you, jackaz.


----------



## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> I really don't want to go here. I like you. You're the yin to the yang around here. Without you, we'd be all yang. But you talk about your dog's faults all the time, and now you demand the market be flooded with more of the same...
> 
> so, fine. you win. "save the puppies." kumbaya...


Yup. By any breed standard she's a loser. Which is exactly why she was never put up for adoption, she will remain with someone dedicated to making sure she is no threat to herself or others, and why she will never reproduce. No one needs more of these genetics. BUT She's my loser. And she has achieved more, fought harder then anyone expected and she has done it with a grace and spirit people should envy. This dog should be held up as a standard, not of the breed but of courage and strength. You have no idea of the odds she beat just to earn the right to be a loser.

It's also why I put my money where my mouth was and fought tirelessly to see her breeder shut down, and as many others like him as I could find. Its why I advocate for responsible rescue and ethical breeding.
And why people who are trying to change a wonderful breed into something else get the sharp edge of my tongue.
There will always be a market for well bred German Shepherds because people love them. A well bred dog should fit near any situation as long as it's needs are met. 
David's Valor is a perfect example of what the breed should be.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

It's been a good thread, and I'm sorry to see it go sour. I'm going to crosspost my little anecdote in it's entirety because I think it speaks right to the heart of the matter at hand (no pun intended):

"I read old ddr threads and see the phrase "be careful what you wish for" a lot. I had to rehome a dog (not gsd) due to handler aggression years ago. 27 inches tall, well over 70lbs. I used to throw his ball downhill, and using the steep incline to his advantage, he'd catch it on the bounce like 10 feet in the air. He was an outstanding specimen.
One day he was in his kennel, I had a female in heat, and his 6 month old son was loose, "on perimeter duty." Somehow the dog got out of his kennel and went after the son. I managed to catch him by the tail and he spun around on me. I thought to myself "no way this dog would ever bite me" so I stuck my hand right into his mouth. SNAP went the jawtrap.
Bucket of cold water was no use. I had to put all my weight on top of him, and choke him off with his heavy duty prong collar. We had a very short lived love hate relationship after that, and I'll never play piano right again. So when you read that expression "be careful what you wish for." I'm telling you what, buckwheat  "

and now I'm going on hiatus for awhile

I'll be back after jack get's himself banned. won't be long


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Here is some secondary obedience and controlled aggression.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> that's great Winners, but you can't teach everybody
> 
> edit: I take that back. I should have said "if only"
> 
> I don't doubt your training prowess for a nanosecond


Handler selection is, or used to be, almost as rigorous as dog selection. On my Army Afghanistan tour, 25 started school and 8 made it.

You simply can't teach what isn't there to begin with.


----------



## David Winners

I really like this. Nice control. I love the bite for an OB reward. There's just a bit of avoidance when you go for the leash right at the end, but I think it's probably that he wants to continue. Good impulse control and I bet that was challenging with this dog. He switches off pretty well when everybody goes calm. Are you working on ramping up distraction yet?

Thanks for posting this Chip.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

It has been a long, complicated process. Initially, the toy had no value and releasing and trying to reward for correct obedience resulted in him wanting to bite the decoy. Through repetition, he had to learn that he had to bite toy before he could bite the decoy. The next step was more precision in the secondary obedience. It is a slow, tedious process but always rewarding because he keeps improving. There are those that will berate such training as “sportism” but I am pretty sure this dog would bite for real. That is not my primary goal but with all the time and effort involved and the fact that the dog has an edge, I think he would be civil. If I need protection, I have a gun. I enjoy the challenge of training intricate and precise behavior. He is not meant to be an operational dog, although, with different training I believe he could.


----------



## David Winners

Oh I'm sure a lot of incremental progress has been made. I appreciate the work going on here. 

I see nothing to berate because you are building control using his drive. It's different if you are trying to build confidence in the dog or correcting bite mechanics. You are showing him the path to what he wants and that listening to you in drive is rewarding. That is beneficial for any dog and doesn't take away from the fight IMO.

I train a bit different than typical working dog trainers I guess. 

Where this type of thing goes south is when the dog is forced instead of encouraged to make a decision. That's a very subtle thing that makes a huge difference in the finished dog and their behavior in drive.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Handler selection is, or used to be, almost as rigorous as dog selection. On my Army Afghanistan tour, 25 started school and 8 made it.
> 
> You simply can't teach what isn't there to begin with.


 but Mr. Winners?



berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm certainly not the world's greatest trainer, so the world's greatest dog wouldn't look his best on the end of my lead.





David Winners said:


> I completely disagree with this.
> 
> I can take a student that has never held a leash before and help them become a decent handler in a couple months. You put them with a crap dog and you get crap. You put them with a rock star and you get a good team. The handler is often the dumb end of the leash.


Respectfully, a lot of us hang on your_ every word here_, Mr. Winners. So much so in fact that I contend the very integrity of this esteemed institution rests largely upon your shoulders. That said, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m not really a pirate. I’m actually a high level secret agent. And now I resume self imposed double secret probation status. Full moon and things are bound to get wonky. Stay safe everybody.

Dog looks phenomenal, Chip!!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Where's your dad?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

David,
He has been introduced to level one distractions in obedience such as in the seated decoy video I posted and followed with decoys right next to him shaking clatter sticks and tapping him while heeling and he maintains a focused heel. He has been pummeled with a very loud aluminum can bottle curtain filled with metal nuts and washers while being driven on the bite and learned to stay on the bite without his grip changing. These are distractions and stressors that are beyond what is permitted at trial in all three levels.
Yes, his training is about him learning to make correct choices rather than compulsion him into it which takes longer but leaves the dog much more clear without conflict.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> but Mr. Winners?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Respectfully, a lot of us hang on your_ every word here_, Mr. Winners. So much so in fact that I contend the very integrity of this esteemed institution rests largely upon your shoulders. That said, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m not really a pirate. I’m actually a high level secret agent. And now I resume self imposed double secret probation status. Full moon and things are bound to get wonky. Stay safe everybody.
> 
> Dog looks phenomenal, Chip!!


I never said having any dog experience was part of the criteria for handler selection.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> David,
> He has been introduced to level one distractions in obedience such as in the seated decoy video I posted and followed with decoys right next to him shaking clatter sticks and tapping him while heeling and he maintains a focused heel. *He has been pummeled with a very loud aluminum can bottle curtain filled with metal nuts and washers while being driven on the bite and learned to stay on the bite without his grip changing.* These are distractions and stressors that are beyond what is permitted at trial in all three levels.
> Yes, his training is about him learning to make correct choices rather than compulsion him into it which takes longer but leaves the dog much more clear without conflict.


Wow. I'm trying to wrap my head around how I would accomplish this. Maybe start on a wedge and then reward good grip with a bite on the decoy. I would incrementally work distance, time and intensity increases on the distraction.

This type of fine detail training is so cool to me. It's a challenging puzzle that's always changing.

Thanks for the discussion.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I did a lot of conditioning to the cans such as at every meal, I would shake the cans around him and increasingly touch, hit him on the side in a reasonable way and eventually shake and slam them on the ground as he ate. At training he was put on a short tie out. We always use a leather pillow to start new bite work in the beginning. He could not run, not that he tried, and would have to go through the curtain to but the pillow. a successful bite made the cans go away. Then intensity was added to the cans and the process was repeated. It took some time but it got to the point where he was tested by a very good decoy with a lot of presence who essentially attacked him with the can curtain and after driving him hard and the dog holding his grip, the cans went away. Desired behavior turns the pressure off. Never make the pressure easier but also don't start at too intense a level.


----------



## dogma13

I usually have nothing to add in discussions of sport and dogs that do real work.But adding pressure and distractions in tiny increments and showing dogs how to work through it in order to make it go away or at least not worry about it is something that is a useful skill for any dog owner.And that it's a process,not something to try for a day or two and give up.I still have nothing to add  I just like the way Chip broke it down clearly.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

It’s been a_ FAR _ranging thread so I figure this is just as good a place as any. I just opened an email from my vet friend with this big idea about studing little gelmo x a fancy german wirehaired pointer. Semi-retired proven working dam, supersnooty import ped, owner hatches gamebirds on a big spread a couple counties away. So far all I know is certain interested parties have detection goals in mind. I have a sneaking suspicion it’s virus detection, but that’s only my wild guess?
I don’t even know what to think? Studfee or get? Personally I lean toward studfee but expect vet wants get, as I’ve already been assured our gs associates are interested. I know better than to believe this is all just “happenstance.” No doubt it’s been in the works, unbeknownst to me, for some time. Vet really gets around.
As for me, a couple pages back I mentioned exploring outcross ideas, but in my mind pointer is beyond a wildcard? No idea what to think about this development, other than breed appears sturdy, well muscled, and squarely built. I assume prey drive is all there? Your thoughts are most welcome. Anybody ever known or even heard of a gsd x gwp cross?


----------



## Sabis mom

Where to begin. 
Your pup is still far off breeding age. Health testing is not done, evaluation of work ability is not done. 
Both breeds are prone to hip and elbow issues. SOD1 gene is present in both. Temperament issue are prevalent in both. Both breeds have eye and heart concerns.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I think you hopes are far too cerebral when you should focus on training and learning your dog’s strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## David Winners

How old is this dog that is going to be the foundation of this program?

I typically see successful crosses that are either pointy eared or floppy eared. 

What exactly are you trying to accomplish that isn't already available?

You want a good detection dog, get a field bred black lab. Hunt test a litter and take the best of the bunch. It will probably be a better detection dog than you are a detection trainer/handler. No offense intended. I would say the same about most detection trainers and handlers, myself included. My first lab detection dog taught me so much. We used to joke about giving him a DAGR, notebook and pencil and he would come back with the GPS grids to all the hides. While this is exaggerating, it's not by much. 

I'm just not seeing the need for a new mousetrap. Bite stuff, 3 good breeds. Find stuff, 4 good breeds. Find and bite stuff, 3 good breeds.

IMO, you take a pointer and a pirate and put them together, you are just hoping without planning. Many crosses between similar breeds (mal x GSD) fail. Uncontrolled aggression. Hyper vigilance. Yes, some are incredible animals, but are they better than a good mal, Dutchie or GSD? Better at what?

What is your goal here? Someone mentioned detection and you hazard a guess that it's virus detection. How about an honest discussion with a goal in mind. I need a dog that will do XYZ, and it doesn't currently exist. Right now you have a pirate and you want to breed it with something to get something, but you don't know what either something really is.

That sounds like a wish in search of a cause.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> Where to begin.
> Your pup is still far off breeding age. Health testing is not done, evaluation of work ability is not done.
> Both breeds are prone to hip and elbow issues. SOD1 gene is present in both. Temperament issue are prevalent in both. Both breeds have eye and heart concerns.


You are good, sabi’s mom. Sharp! Keep ‘em on their toes!! I’ll forward these concerns to the negotiations. I’ve never paid much attention to the sporting group. Pretty dogs @ crufts and westminster, but that’s as far as I’ve ever looked. The more I read from the verein deutsch drathaar however, the more I think they might teach the verein deutsch schaferhund a thing or two.



Chip Blasiole said:


> I think you hopes are far too cerebral when you should focus on training and learning your dog’s strengths and weaknesses.


I can’t argue with that. He’s got the best eyes/ears/nose on my property, but so lacking prey I deem it a fault. Took a little break while his teeth came in but he’s finally back to an acceptable start. At first he attempted to revert back to a front tooth grip, but we’re working on it here. Vet says his teeth are too big for his mouth and the rest of his skull has to catch up up now.



David Winners said:


> I typically see successful crosses that are either pointy eared or floppy eared. [ ]
> I'm just not seeing the need for a new mousetrap.


 From a pointy ear perspective I agree 100%. I can't speak from a flop ear perspective, but I totally see the sense from a crop ear perspective. Not my dam, didn't even know about the plan until this morning, but I'll have fun relating the points you raise above as well. My wild virus guess was solely based upon supply side economics. I really have no idea what they're up to and whatever it is, they aren't likely to share much with little ole me.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> You are good, sabi’s mom. Sharp! Keep ‘em on their toes!! I’ll forward these concerns to the negotiations. I’ve never paid much attention to the sporting group. Pretty dogs @ crufts and westminster, but that’s as far as I’ve ever looked. The more I read from the verein deutsch drathaar however, the more I think they might teach the verein deutsch schaferhund a thing or two.
> 
> 
> 
> I can’t argue with that. He’s got the best eyes/ears/nose on my property, but so lacking prey I deem it a fault. Took a little break while his teeth came in but he’s finally back to an acceptable start. At first he attempted to revert back to a front tooth grip, but we’re working on it here. Vet says his teeth are too big for his mouth and the rest of his skull has to catch up up now.
> 
> 
> 
> From a pointy ear perspective I agree 100%. I can't speak from a flop ear perspective, but I totally see the sense from a crop ear perspective. Not my dam, didn't even know about the plan until this morning, but I'll have fun relating the points you raise above as well. My wild virus guess was solely based upon supply side economics. I really have no idea what they're up to and whatever it is, they aren't likely to share much with little ole me.


There are other places they would likely look than a veterinarian, such as a kennels with 500 proven detection dogs and a supply chain that could provide 500 more in a month's time, a training staff that is capable of turning out those 500 dogs in serviceable condition and the ability to retrain or replace any dogs that failed to meet standards in a timely manner.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

just out of curiosity I'm shopping trained virus detection dawgs online here and not finding much? So far tarheel turned out one, and top tier offers candidates and training. It'll be interesting to watch this market evolve, if indeed it does? I don't doubt that it will, but I won't be too surprised if it diminishes significantly in about another 90 days either? We certainly live in interesting times...


----------



## David Winners

Google isn't omniscient.

There are plenty of TB dogs, and rats, working every day.

If there is a void, there are companies ready to fill it. There are some pretty shrewd dudes training dogs out there.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> just out of curiosity I'm shopping trained virus detection dawgs online here and not finding much? So far tarheel turned out one, and top tier offers candidates and training. It'll be interesting to watch this market evolve, if indeed it does? I don't doubt that it will, but I won't be too surprised if it diminishes significantly in about another 90 days either? We certainly live in interesting times...


Let's just say that if you need a specialized detection dog, you are going to know who to contact. An internet search isn't necessary.


----------



## Shadow Shep

@berno von der seeweise can we have some pics of Gelmo please?


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I posted most recent photos somewhere in this thread. Unfortunately they weren't any good so I didn't save them to file. There's certainly nothing "special looking" about him. If you ask me he's really a funny looking thing. Quite unlike gsd I knew 30 yrs ago. I'll get a decent pose and post it next time I log on.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> I posted most recent photos somewhere in this thread. Unfortunately they weren't any good so I didn't save them to file. There's certainly nothing "special looking" about him. If you ask me he's really a funny looking thing. Quite unlike gsd I knew 30 yrs ago. I'll get a decent pose and post it next time I log on.


He's not a golden in a pirate hat?

I'm disappointed


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Let's just say that if you need a specialized detection dog, you are going to know who to contact. An internet search isn't necessary.


just out of curiosity, who do you suppose top tier k9 is targeting with their covid 19 detection marketing campaign? "community health/wellness innovations" trying to beat you to the punch here, my guess would be like schools? maybe little local municipalities? maybe it's more of a media campaign than a marketing campaign?


----------



## David Winners

I would say that top tier K9 isn't targeting any market other than 3 letter agencies catching bad guys. That's where the money is.

If someone asks for a dog that can detect substance x, they will imprint a dog or 12 and see where it goes. There isn't anything mystical about detection. It's a known variable.

As an example, when cell phone detection dogs became a thing, the big kennels just started training dogs. There were challenges but they know their stuff and they worked it out before the demand got big.

The bottom line is that detection is detection. It can be 23 different explosives, 7 different narcotics, bedbugs, 3 different essential oils or tuberculosis. It's the same training. If you are a kennels that specializes in working dogs that do detection, it's nothing to add an odor to your repertoire. Same trainers. Same program. Same sources for dogs. Different odor.

Some trainers are successful by getting out in front of the Bell curve. Bed bugs is a good example, but I think that's because of the the challenges involved in training aids. Bed bugs eat blood. You can connect the dots.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

top tier k9 webpage seems to put just as much if not more emphasis on their pet boarding/training and business development segments as it does targeting 3 letter agencies. I imagine overhead costs involved w/ training imports really eats away at net margins.

do you have any thoughts about why imports continue to dominate the market? that's really curious to me? I mean a mal mix is a mal mix, right? so why is the "3 letter agency" market still so import driven?


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> top tier k9 webpage seems to put just as much if not more emphasis on their pet boarding/training and business development segments as it does targeting 3 letter agencies. I imagine overhead costs involved w/ training imports really eats away at net margins.
> 
> do you have any thoughts about why imports continue to dominate the market? that's really curious to me? I mean a mal mix is a mal mix, right? so why is the "3 letter agency" market still so import driven?


Ok, I'm not talking about some web page named top tier. I'm talking about real kennels that provide dogs to governments that do specific jobs.

Again, Google is not your best friend. There is a world of working dogs that is not online. I'm not referring to a specific page with "top tier" in the name. You simply don't know what you don't know.

Imports continue to rule the market because they are a known entity. The percentage of dogs that succeed in their job is higher with imports than with domestic dogs. It's s matter of economics. People are expensive compared to dogs. If you can have a kennels in Holland where people bring you dogs to test vs scouring the huge country that is the US to find suitable dogs, which makes sense?

We're not talking about a dog here and there. We're talking hundreds of dogs a year. If you take a dog to a big kennels to be tested and it passes, they will pay top dollar, and this happens. Just not in large numbers.

I just jumped through a bunch of hoops to get a dog from a Canadian breeder. There are several breeders in the US I would have been happy to get a dog from. The difference here is in numbers. I wanted a particular dog. A single dog that fit into my idea of the perfect dog. I got him. If I wanted 300 dogs that I could train up and deploy, I wouldn't look at hobby breeders that breed the cream of the crop. I would look to the kernels that bring numbers of suitable dogs that can do the job.

Are you looking for the perfect dog or the army of dogs that get get job done?


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Are you looking for the perfect dog or the army of dogs that get get job done


There is that difference between a dog and the dog again.


----------



## Bearshandler

As an individual, I would say you look for a dog that fits. As you become more experienced and understand what it is you like and want in a dog, you look for the dog, the best dog that fits what you want.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> Ok, I'm not talking about some web page named top tier.


 ok, so again, what about this top tier?

who do you suppose they are targeting with their covid detection dog marketing campaign?



David Winners said:


> You simply don't know what you don't know.


 what I do know, for sure, is that absolutely every single line item in a kennel's budget costs but a small fraction in say, oh, somewhere like rural missouri or wherever for example, vs what it costs in holland, or anywhere else in eu for that matter. Land, taxes, water, kibble, fuel, energy, concrete, steel, you name it. It's far FAR cheaper to operate out in flyover country than it is to operate across the pond.

I'm convinced there's 2 major factors in play. The first, as I've previously mentioned, is imprinting from 4 - 7 weeks. The second, which only occurred to me just now, tonight, is the bureaucratic skim. 

do you know if your breeder did any clicker training with the litter before you got your new pup?


----------



## jakubnovotny

From Carmen
Carmspack says.....
“David, thank you very much. Valor is a bullseye right on target representing a 40yr dedicated plan for exactly that type of dog. Your plan is exactly what I do, what I have tried to put across for people to understand. As seen in the Early Socialization thread and the genetic obedience thread. *When I select and take a dog out, it is not to condition them, it’s not to flood or change behaviours, it is only to observe their natural nerve stability and judgement. Their boldness, a trait sorely missing in the breed. **Only by observing what the dog is naturally, do you know what you have genetically**, which will be passed on through generations when these things are considered also from the breeding partner. No trait is masked by conditioning.* As Valor matures and you give him more opportunities, you will come to understand what I have meant by genetic obedience. Oh, and by the way, how is his structure?.......Not bad eh!!“











Carmspack puppy inbound!!!


I edited my post above but I would like to clarify some things here for others that may be getting a new puppy and reading this. This is not driven by goals or some checklist. Every step along the way, Valor was monitored closely for stress or avoidance. Had I see any sign of either, we...




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## David Winners

They are targeting churches and airports according to their press kit.

No, Valor had no clicker work before I got him.

While every line item may be more expensive in the EU, dogs are not. There is a working dog breeding culture there that is not found anywhere else that I'm aware of.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> While every line item may be more expensive in the EU, dogs are not. There is a working dog breeding culture there that is not found anywhere else that I'm aware of.


and that eu working dog culture churns out the dogs you described below, correct?



David Winners said:


> Many top tier military dogs work strictly in prey drive. If it's enough to carry them through the fight, that's all it takes. They are easy to train. They change handlers easily.


you're giving me pearls here, Mr. Winners. I'm having a ball shaking things up in my little real time circles. Everybody thinks berno is pulling a coup d'état 










so in all your travels, did you ever see anything that looked like this doing detection work?

interesting genetic study. I firmly believe those guys had the right idea with the open herdbooks


----------



## David Winners

Sure. I've trained and worked with many bird dog breeds in detection. Everything from cockers to the various pointer breeds.

Pits, doodles, mutts, whatever has the drive and hunt.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I don't know? the type is so radically different? might actually make for a good outcross? obviously first generation would be out and out mutt, but on the backcrosses? who knows? might be worth a try?


----------



## Sabis mom

Border agencies are probably the second highest market for detection dogs. Why would they limit themselves to one breed or one supplier if any dog with the drive and ability can do the job? 
There are whole businesses built on testing, pulling and training pound dogs for this task. Beagles are doing a fabulous job and have the added bonus of being simply adorable and in huge supply. 
Like it or not Berno, your idea has been done to death.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

The idea of a sporting x never even occurred to me? And while I readily agree _certain sporting crosses_ do indeed appear _wildly popular_ as of late, that one really caught me by surprise? I’m still trying to get my head around it here.

In any event I’ve been kindly reminded the entire experiment would be conducted under strictest supervision of a “well respected, highly regarded, widely acclaimed, impeccably credentialed, state licensed specialist,” owner of the dam assumes liability for the genetic health of the litter, afore mentioned “well respected, highly regarded, yada yada” has already conducted a physical examination of little gelmo and found no reason to suspect he’ll be unable to sire a litter, and finally, here comes the really interesting part now, I’ve been informed those sporting folk aren’t even allowed to breed a dam more than three times, so she’s officially been retired for awhile. They hope/expect she’ll come into season again soon, and she’s getting up there in years now, so it’s soon or never.

Three litter limit is a good sound rule because it caps the influence an individual may exert upon the rest of the breed, so there’s _another valuable lesson_ sv could learn from vdd.

I keep using the phrase “usual suspects” because _bottleneck upon bottleneck upon bottleneck_ in the gsd database. 2019 VA1 has nearly six hundred progeny uploaded alone, and his own sire registered double that number. Talk about done to death! In terms of population science, that’s completely absurd. Beyond absurd.

Getting back to that sporting cross, my only concern, and maybe it’s just myth or whatever, “wive's tale” if you’ll please pardon the phrase, but I was raised to operate under the assumption previous sires may express in a dam’s future offspring.
Genetically speaking my wild guess is perhaps a dam’s DNA mutates while carrying a sire’s offspring to term? Or maybe that’s purely old superstition? Personally I kind of don’t think so, but it’s anecdotal at best. Whatever I ultimately end up doing here, it’ll be worth it to me just to “map” the resulting germplasm. Nobody gets a vom schnurrbart pup without a dna swab up front.


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## David Winners

How old is gelmo?


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## Shadow Shep

berno von der seeweise said:


> as much as I want to disagree, I am not able to at this time. I've looked high and low and I'm just not finding the usa byb gsd type that was so common, prior to german reunification. A few very old, very well known "holdout" breeders remain, solely focused on the companion market ("old style" neither bred for show nor work) but to my eye even their lines have diverged beyond recognition now...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bear in mind that until nearly the turn of the last century, MWD's were BYB's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's a best in every litter, and proper rearing/conditioning early on is critical. Linebreed on best and you'll get better. I very much appreciate the modern "working type," but if I'm being perfectly brutally honest, I fear it may be overrated in the minds of some enthusiasts, and I *know* it underperforms vs another breed or 2 nowdays...
> 
> no offense intended


Where did you get that photo from? What type of German Shepherd is that? My mom's grandparents and dad had GSDs that look extremely close to that one.


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## Chip Blasiole

Your obsession with breeding some special offspring is a way of avoiding an unwillingness to learn about dogs by training some and seeing others trained. It is akin to someone wanting to be a chef but has never cooked before.


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## dogfaeries

David Winners said:


> How old is gelmo?


I’m estimating 7 months?


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## Fodder

dogfaeries said:


> I’m estimating 7 months?


in days please..


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## dogfaeries

Fodder said:


> in days please..


Darn it. I would’ve calculated it, but my math skills are lacking.


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't know? the type is so radically different? might actually make for a good outcross? obviously first generation would be out and out mutt, but on the backcrosses? who knows? might be worth a try?


You do understand that this is a German Shepherd forum right? And while genetics are fun to debate I, for one, am vehemently opposed to indiscriminate breeding. Of any kind. Not one thing you have said on this forum is in praise of this breed and frankly I find the idea of breeding any dog underage and untested appalling. If you dislike the breed then maybe you would be better served to find a breed that suits your purposes.
I spent a couple of decades up to my eyeballs in the product of BYB's, all out to turn a quick buck at the expense of the health and well being of the dogs. 
Shadow was the only survivor of a litter of 11, born in a place were puppies went in the burn barrel routinely. Mori had never been out of the kennel she was born in until the night I cut the lock. George had to have part of his front foot surgically removed because it had been caught so long in the wire of his pen.
Some were a bit better, more like you. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Do you know what it's like to have an 8 month old pup crippled by HD? Or see a healthy young dog drop dead because of a heart defect? Hemangio, EPI both have a genetic component. 
Closer to home for me, watch your partner of 10 years disappear to DM. 
You study all these pedigrees but know nothing, or care nothing about genetic diseases? Come on.
Can we get this thread back to pedigrees and training please?


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## MineAreWorkingline

Instead of making an inept effort to produce top of the line working dogs without doing all of the legwork, perhaps you can find what you want already with four on the floor. Not all registries are concerned about breed purity. Some focus on can they work.



Bloedlijnen.nl | Home


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## berno von der seeweise

David Winners said:


> How old is gelmo?


he’s the most _near 8 month old_ natural born humpymonkey anybody ever saw, right on down to the ground



Shadow Shep said:


> Where did you get that photo from? What type of German Shepherd is that? My mom's grandparents and dad had GSDs that look extremely close to that one.


https://media.defense.gov/2011/Sep/06/2000222782/780/780/0/110906-F-XN622-007.JPG

to me he looked like an old time usa byb black and silver. I reckon he had black and tan as well as white in his ped. Judging from them jungle boots I’d hazard to guess appx mid 1970’s?



Chip Blasiole said:


> Your obsession with breeding some special offspring is a way of avoiding an unwillingness to learn about dogs by training some and seeing others trained. It is akin to someone wanting to be a chef but has never cooked before.


to be honest I haven’t fully ruminated on your above psychoanalyses, Dr. Blasiole, but I will give it further introspection here. You may well be onto something? Deep down I may suffer from a crippling training envy complex?
In the meantime however I am well prepared to declare, with utmost conviction, I know vigor when I observe it, and I know overbred when I observe it, and the vast overwhelming majority of gsd I observe appear grossly overbred. Don’t take my word for it, ask carmspack and canczech for their opinions on the subject. I’m completely confident they’ll concur. Hence the fact that both go to the ends of the earth in order to select their own breeding stock.
Genetics is my forte. A litter is a controlled experiment. Imprint, expose, evaluate, select, and repeat. For example if you linebreed on vpat 4, eventually you’ll get more vpat 4’s. It’s empirical. In the end my selection may not entirely conform to the breed's standard, but a vpat 4 is a vpat 4, by any other name.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not all registries are concerned about breed purity.


neither am I, obviously; but I'm just not into bsd either. Nothing against them, just not my thing. My vet is hot after some bsd, but I really don't see myself getting involved with any of that.



Sabis mom said:


> Can we get this thread back to pedigrees and training please?


well "bloodlines and pedigrees" is located down here in the breeding forums, and I am pondering the founding of a bloodline, so....

I'm *definitely* inclined to try a white gsd, but we'll have to see what comes my way?


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## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> he’s the most _near 8 month old_ natural born humpymonkey anybody ever saw, right down to the ground


Did you imprint that?


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## Sabis mom

berno von der seeweise said:


> well "bloodlines and pedigrees" is located down here in the breeding forums, and I am pondering the founding of a bloodline, so....


No. You are debating producing mutts from untested stock. Again this is a German Shepherd forum. The breed is darn near perfect the way it is, so if you don't like the breed why are you here?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> neither am I, obviously; but I'm just not into bsd either. Nothing against them, just not my thing. My vet is hot after some bsd, but I really don't see myself getting involved with any of that.


I don't believe that they are breed selective.


----------



## jakubnovotny

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don’t even know what to think? Studfee or get? *Personally I lean toward studfee *but expect vet wants get, as I’ve already been assured our gs associates are interested.





berno von der seeweise said:


> Genetics is my forte. A litter is a controlled experiment. Imprint, expose, evaluate, select, and repeat. For example if you linebreed on vpat 4, eventually you’ll get more vpat 4’s. It’s empirical.* In the end my selection may not entirely conform to the breed's standard, but a vpat 4 is a vpat 4, by any other name.*


LOL

Another "pet" BYB.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Sabis mom said:


> The breed is darn near perfect the way it is


 I don't disagree some extraordinarily admirable strains do persist, but if by "perfect" you literally mean the breed in it's current state, _as a whole_? berno's conscience would leave him no choice but to _vehemently take issue_ with such an assertion...


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## David Winners

The most important of questions has yet to be answered. What is the primary goal of this breeding? What is it that these dogs will bring to the table that current offerings do not?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Vigor and overbred are outcomes that few to no experienced trainers/breeders consider. You are approaching this from a purely academic point of view like someone who has researched physical training for performance sports but has never exercised. It is like you are trying to reinvent the wheel. IMO, someone who wants to breed should train their potential breeding stock and learn what results are based mostly on genetics vs. training. You need to have a lot more hands on experience with multiple dogs to get a firsthand taste of things.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I just now realized this is all far more complicated from your perspectives. So let’s just flip it around here and take a look from my perspective because it’s much more simple. The question here on my end is not “what do other breeds bring to the table?” The question on my end is, “what does a gsd sire bring to the table?” Bear in mind I’m not just “floating around aimlessly” on my own out here. I’m loosely affiliated with other breeds/breeders, and that’s how my gsd came to be. Lots of breeds are bottlenecked, some far worse than gsd.

so far I’ve observed improved nose, ears, and eyes. I expect he’ll develop an improved bite (pending) and the potential for improved defense (_whatever that is?_) may perhaps be pending as well? I wouldn’t say he’s a “better” stock dog, but there does seem to be some sort of emotional attachment between he and my stock that my other dogs just don’t exhibit. In time that may develop into something I’ll call an “improvement” as well? That also remains to be seen?

Whatever “improvent” he ultimately brings, I’ve already clearly observed significant costs in agility and prey. No doubt in my mind whatsoever I could breed him to a ham sandwich and get more prey out of at least one offspring.

As for agility, I believe that comes with the territory. Gsd were never engineered to be “springy.” Chip made a “sprint vs marathon” analogy earlier that fits perfectly right here. I guess about 15 yrs ago or so now there was some vintage knpv and schH footage circulating online which illustrated side by side “breed vs breed” agility and movement, if anyone doesn’t already know what I mean.

My point simply being, I’m happy to stop well short of calling the correct gsd movement illustrated in that early footage a fault. Obviously the breed was never engineered to move like the other breeds captured on that film. And for that matter, obviously those other breeds were never engineered to cover ground like a gsd. So chalk it up to different types, different selection pressures, whatever? But there again, no doubt whatsoever in my mind I could breed him to a ham sandwich and get more agility out of at least one offspring.

I’m not a cop, I’m not a soldier, and I’m certainly not looking to place pups w/ DOD. I’m looking for little a dash of prey if only to make training easier, and goodly dose of agility would better fill the bill. I could easily get that out of a standard poodle cross, and that may well be on the menu in my very near future; but ultimately I’d like to plan something perhaps just a bit sharper as well, if only to suit my own tastes.

I’m not a market breeder. I dig genetics and I’m head over heels about a great ped, but I couldn’t possibly care less about registration papers or puppy prices. I love to cook too, but I wouldn’t want to do it for a living because that would only take all the fun out of it for me. My hobby pays for itself because I’m surrounded by predators here and essentially “bating them in” with my stock. Fish and game just upgraded black bear status to common and wolf depredation continues to rise. Especially since they canceled wolf season permits. Like a sitting duck if not for good dogs. Years back I approached the online anatolian breeder community at large about some wolf issues, but they didn’t want nothin’ to do with it. I do know where to get a good maremma now, but livestock protection breeds just don’t rank high on the intelligence scale…

“just get another gsd” may seem like an easy answer, perhaps even the right answer to some, but follow that though for a few generations. Where does it lead? To what end? Make no mistake about it, I’m going to breed the living heck out of little gelmo here  but does the breed really need another akc byb crankin’ out papered companions for the cityfolk market? Or is there perhaps a fleeting little glimmer of a chance the breed might actually be better served someday in the very distant future if berno just focuses on founding a sturdy ‘ol muttline with his lucky little 7/8 ddr sire? I mean, I can get papers on that ham sandwich right now, no questions asked. When it comes to that sort of thing it’s not about what you know, it’s about who you know.

I’m already implicated in more than enough “one off” breeding plans here (_guilt by association_), but long term is the question constantly looming in the back of my mind. It’s very apparent to me that nobody participating in this thread has done much, if any linebreeding; but I’ve personally done more than enough to have learned first hand, _all too bitterly bloody well_,* the time is short.*


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I think you confuse our objections regarding working line traits with pet breeding. The point is that there are plenty of working line GSDs that not only are bringing it all to the table per your desires but they also are passing it on to their progeny. You are trying to create by mixing breeds what already exists in GSDs. 

Regarding agility, my little blue Heeler is incredibly agile. She was like that as a pup. The only thing that holds her back in comparison to the Mals are her stumpy legs and her Fred Flintstone feet. Now my Mal in black GSD clothing...I am still waiting for the Mals to show me that anything she can do, they can do better.


----------



## jakubnovotny

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm having a ball shaking things up in my little real time circles. Everybody thinks berno is pulling a coup d'état





berno von der seeweise said:


> I know vigor when I observe it





berno von der seeweise said:


> I’m loosely affiliated with other breeds/breeders, and that’s how my gsd came to be.


Oh hey, just curious if "manofmann" is part of your BYB collective ?

Here is a clip from his "german pointer cross german shepherd" :






^^^^^^^^ is this the F1 hybrid vigor you speak of lol


----------



## Sabis mom

My Bluetick, was actually a Bluetick/Walker cross. Purpose bred off parents proven for cat hunting. The parents were health tested, proven working dogs. The breeder had intially been breeding both as well as Redbones for years. He very deliberately bred my boys parents because it was a good cross, in terms of work ability. Each breed brought specific traits that he wanted to the table.
What he didn't do was sit looking at pedigrees and think "Gee. What sort of mongrel can I produce here?"
He worked both sire and dam. He had worked their sires and dams. He KNEW what he would produce. I only got Blue because he knew me and I have a long affection for Coonies. 
I have no issues with purpose bred crosses off working and tested stock. I have worked with, owned and cared for tons of them. 
I will always have issues with willy nilly crossing of unproven anything. And that is what you are proposing.


----------



## dogma13

This thread has me remembering reading The Island of Dr. Moreau.And Jurassic Park.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I feel like dr moreau 

"intelligence of dogs, brightest dogs" cites rott smarter than heeler?

dr berno may have to call quackery on that...


----------



## dogfaeries

berno von der seeweise said:


> I could easily get that out of a standard poodle cross, and that may well be on the menu in my very near future;


Because we don’t have enough doodles out here already.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

are you a standard poodle breeder? I've even never owned one, but was invited to join as a founding member of the standard poodle project years ago. I learned quite a bit from that experience.










as for the "doodles" comment, I do question the logic of importing crossbreeds? Winners just mentioned the "working dog culture" in holland. Apparently it's ok to cull in holland but "not in N. america?" Over here we're supposed to "save the doodles?" Doesn't make any sense to me?










but anyway, yeah, I'm definitely a staunch pro-doodle advocate


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> are you a standard poodle breeder? I've even never owned one, but was invited to join as a founding member of the standard poodle project years ago. I learned quite a bit from that experience.
> 
> View attachment 561934
> 
> 
> as for the "doodles" comment, I do question the logic of importing crossbreeds? Winners just mentioned the "working dog culture" in holland. Apparently it's ok to cull in holland but "not in N. america?" Over here we're supposed to "save the doodles?" Doesn't make any sense to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but anyway, yeah, I'm definitely a staunch pro-doodle advocate


Pictures of everyone else's dogs but yours....


----------



## David Winners

Who mentioned culling in Holland?

I'd kindly ask that you not attach my name to things I did not say. I have no knowledge of actual breeding practices. Therefore I don't make comments about them.

Thanks


----------



## dogfaeries

berno von der seeweise said:


> but anyway, yeah, I'm definitely a staunch pro-doodle advocate


So, berno, what do you know about doodles? As a groomer for over 40 years, I’m pretty sure I have more practical experience with poodle mixes (ie “doodles”).


----------



## berno von der seeweise

all I know about it so far is little igor (_formerly little gelmo_) is going to found a standard poodle bloodline, but I doubt I'll get too involved with any of that.

really my only point being, the whole "breed purity" myth is crumbling fast



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Pictures of everyone else's dogs but yours....


 you _really _want to see pics of little igor, eh? well, fine, I'll put the camera on charge...


----------



## Sabis mom

Spoos are awesome dogs. I cannot imagine deliberately crossing one. And I don't like doodles. Coats are a nightmare, temperament is all over the map. 
No reputable breeder allows their stock to be crossed. And therein lies the problem.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> all I know about it so far is little igor (_formerly little gelmo_) is going to found a standard poodle bloodline, but I doubt I'll get too involved with any of that.
> 
> really my only point being, the whole "breed purity" myth is crumbling fast
> 
> 
> 
> you _really _want to see pics of little igor, eh? well, fine, I'll put the camera on charge...


I want to see pictures of all of your animals.


----------



## dogfaeries

Sabis mom said:


> Spoos are awesome dogs. I cannot imagine deliberately crossing one. And I don't like doodles. Coats are a nightmare, temperament is all over the map.
> No reputable breeder allows their stock to be crossed. And therein lies the problem.


Standard poodles are a really fun breed. And you are absolutely correct about doodle coats and temperaments. The labradoodles and goldendoodles that I currently do are sweet, but very neurotic and noisy. Not the smartest dogs by any means. And the coats are indeed a nightmare. Owners generally are clueless, and dogs are inevitably shaved down. 

The doodle business is booming. $2000-3000 for a bernadoodle, shepadoodle, sheepadoodle, woodle, etc. 

Ugh.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Pups are culled everywhere. It might be more common in some places than others and different breeders have different practices.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

While I'm waiting on my camera here, I don't post lots of photos of little igor because I fail to see the point? I'm certainly not looking to "promote" him? To me he just looks like an average sable. Perhaps a shade or two darker than some, and a few shades lighter than others, but I really have no interest in color genetics. Frankly imo, if you've seen one sable, you've seen them all.

And I'll take the opportunity once again to emphatically stress: no photo is far better than a bad photo. Granted there's quite a bit more leeway in regards to training photos vs portraits; but either way, maybe 1 out of 100 stills capture a dog at his best? There's simply no such thing as "too selective" when publishing photos of your dog. If you don't know photography, google 'dog photo tips' returns like eight hundred million results.



















if I'm being completely honest about it here, I just zipped my camera up and let the battery go dead after I found the photos above. As far as I'm concerned, best gsd photos EVER!


----------



## Sabis mom

dogfaeries said:


> Standard poodles are a really fun breed. And you are absolutely correct about doodle coats and temperaments. The labradoodles and goldendoodles that I currently do are sweet, but very neurotic and noisy. Not the smartest dogs by any means. And the coats are indeed a nightmare. Owners generally are clueless, and dogs are inevitably shaved down.
> 
> The doodle business is booming. $2000-3000 for a bernadoodle, shepadoodle, sheepadoodle, woodle, etc.
> 
> Ugh.


My thoughts on it are this. Back in the 70s or so someone tried the cockapoo thing. They were going to be awesome, a new breed. Decades later they never succeeded in getting a set type, they never achieved breed status or even came close. The dogs were a mess, many ended up in shelters or worse. Subsequent doodle experiments went the same way. And poodles are awesome. I cannot imagine what any of these other breeds bring to the table that poodles don't already have.
Whoodles? That's just horrifying. I cannot imagine a worse coat and you are crossing a high energy dog that can launch 6 feet straight up and has a high maintenance coat with an uber intelligent breed that is highly active and has a high maintenance coat.

Whoodles- SCWTxPoodle.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

berno von der seeweise said:


> While I'm waiting on my camera here, I don't post lots of photos of little igor because I fail to see the point? I'm certainly not looking to "promote" him? To me he just looks like an average sable. Perhaps a shade or two darker than some, and a few shades lighter than others, but I really have no interest in color genetics. Frankly imo, if you've seen one sable, you've seen them all.
> 
> And I'll take the opportunity once again to emphatically stress: no photo is far better than a bad photo. Granted there's quite a bit more leeway in regards to training photos vs portraits; but either way, maybe 1 out of 100 stills capture a dog at his best? There's simply no such thing as "too selective" when publishing photos of your dog. If you don't know photography, google 'dog photo tips' returns like eight hundred million results.


Correct working conformation is very important for workability and long term joint health


----------



## dogfaeries

Sabis mom said:


> My thoughts on it are this. Back in the 70s or so someone tried the cockapoo thing. They were going to be awesome, a new breed. Decades later they never succeeded in getting a set type, they never achieved breed status or even came close. The dogs were a mess, many ended up in shelters or worse. Subsequent doodle experiments went the same way. And poodles are awesome. I cannot imagine what any of these other breeds bring to the table that poodles don't already have.
> Whoodles? That's just horrifying. I cannot imagine a worse coat and you are crossing a high energy dog that can launch 6 feet straight up and has a high maintenance coat with an uber intelligent breed that is highly active and has a high maintenance coat.
> 
> Whoodles- SCWTxPoodle.


Cockapoos were the worst dog I groomed all those years ago. Stupidest things ever, with a terrible coat. It’s amazing how crossing any breed with a poodle just dumbs the whole dog down. Poodles are so smart. How does that even happen, lol?


----------



## WIBackpacker

Berno, please remember that forum rules specifically ban posting copyrighted images unless you have permission from the owner. 

It'd be helpful if you can please remove anything that falls into that category. 

- Mod


----------



## berno von der seeweise

according to 3rd pan american convention, everybody owns all rights to everything they produce, so technically that's a little sketchy these days. For the time being at least, as far as the law is concerned, unless you're attempting to market some other Artist's work, it's all fair game.


----------



## WIBackpacker

berno von der seeweise said:


> according to 3rd pan american convention, everybody owns all rights to everything they produce, so technically that's a little sketchy these days. For the time being at least, as far as the law is concerned, unless you're attempting to market some other Artist's work, it's all fair game.


Have you asked Alexis if you have permission to re-post her images?


----------



## Sabis mom

I think people have no idea how awesome poodles really are. They are versatile, intelligent and athletic. I have yet to find a task that a Poodle cannot be taught. 
I guess by comparison most breeds are dumb. Lol. 
Spoos are one of my favorite breeds, and at one point in my life I owned a miniature as well. Great dogs. Nothing to be added.
The only thing that stops me owning any poodles is grooming. I hate grooming! Lol.
Same reason I will never get another Sheltie. Or a wheaten. Or a LC GSD. Lol. Unless I move in next door to a groomer.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Sabis mom said:


> I think people have no idea how awesome poodles really are. They are versatile, intelligent and athletic.


Yes. It's crazy, I had a pretty skeptical view of them until I met a few in agility. The ones I train with also (legit) hunt (!!!!!!!). They aren't the right breed for me, but good ones are pretty darn cool.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

WIBackpacker said:


> Have you asked Alexis if you have permission to re-post her images?


 that's what I mean about sketchy. technically if it's on facebook, zukerberg owns it, and he doesn't care who posts it where. Hence the fact that I don't have a facebook account


----------



## berno von der seeweise

WIBackpacker said:


> [standard poodles] I train with also (legit) hunt (!!!!!!!). They aren't the right breed for me, but good ones are pretty darn cool.


 like gsd, the working lines are quite "diverse" and often exceed the breed's standard, while pca standard conformation lines may as well be an entirely separate breed. Not the right breed for me either but I look forward to evaluating little igor's progeny all the same. It'll be an interesting study.


----------



## dogfaeries

berno von der seeweise said:


> that's what I mean about sketchy. technically if it's on facebook, zukerberg owns it, and he doesn't care who posts it where. Hence the fact that I don't have a facebook account


Wrong. 

While FB has the rights to do what they want (sort of) with your photos, you still own the photos. Taking photos from FB without permission from the owner is theft.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

dogfaeries said:


> Wrong.
> 
> While FB has the rights to do what they want with your photos, you still own the photos. Taking photos from FB without permission from the owner is theft.


posting facebook imagelinks is neither copyright infringement nor theft. I'm an Artist by trade, Mods, so I'm *intimately familiar* with the law. You really ought to be more careful with the liable around here. Doesn't matter to me because I'm anonymous, but somebody else might actually care.

https://scontent.feau1-1.fna.fbcdn....=0f8a1551921234b5f749c9ad5ec94fe1&oe=5F3D8A0C


https://scontent.feau1-1.fna.fbcdn....=df747bdd58c8b56f7d23f5ad0075155e&oe=5F3C8836


----------



## WIBackpacker

Asking again - Berno, will you please go back and remove copyrighted images from your previous posts?

We aren't Facebook, the forum rules here are pretty clear. 



> You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this WB.





> 12. Copyright rules, it is illegal to post a copyrighted photo unless you have written permission from the copyright holder to post on a public forum.


Board Rules: German Shepherds Forum









Perlich Ring a Bell for Anyone?


are you a standard poodle breeder? I've even never owned one, but was invited to join as a founding member of the standard poodle project years ago. I learned quite a bit from that experience. as for the "doodles" comment, I do question the logic of importing crossbreeds? Winners just...




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## berno von der seeweise

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/2053757-864650.jpg

here again, posted via the database. I don't own the image file. never claimed to. never insinuated. nada.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Sharing links is welcomed. 

Embedding copyrighted material within your posts is not allowed on this forum without permission from the owner.


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> Spoos are awesome dogs. I cannot imagine deliberately crossing one. And I don't like doodles. Coats are a nightmare, temperament is all over the map.
> No reputable breeder allows their stock to be crossed. And therein lies the problem.


I’ve yet to meet one that has any sign of intelligence which is crazy considering both the standard poodle and retriever are both intelligent breeds in their own.


----------



## dogfaeries

Saphire said:


> I’ve yet to meet one that has any sign of intelligence which is crazy considering both the standard poodle and retriever are both intelligent breeds in their own.


I know. It’s a mystery.


----------



## Sabis mom

Saphire said:


> I’ve yet to meet one that has any sign of intelligence which is crazy considering both the standard poodle and retriever are both intelligent breeds in their own.


Every single doodle that I have ever met seems to take the worst possible traits of both breeds and magnify them. It's bizarre. Maybe it's that hybrid vigor? Lol.


----------



## dogfaeries

Sabis mom said:


> Every single doodle that I have ever met seems to take the worst possible traits of both breeds and magnify them. It's bizarre. Maybe it's that hybrid vigor? Lol.


Seriously. It’s true. And I unfortunately get to groom them.


----------



## Sabis mom

dogfaeries said:


> Seriously. It’s true. And I unfortunately get to groom them.


Could we imprint better coats? Lol


----------



## dogfaeries

Sabis mom said:


> Could we imprint better coats? Lol


Well. Hmmm. I’ll ask some doodle breeders about that. I sure that’ll be a big priority. 

I’m on a lot of FB groomer groups, and apparently there are a bunch of doodle breeders telling their buyers that they don’t have to groom their dog for the first year. What??? So when they actually make it to the groomers, they are a pelted mess, because the average pet owner can’t brush a dog to save their life.


----------



## Sabis mom

I stick to GSDs because anything more then a good brushing is to much grooming for me!


----------



## Jax08

I've seen many Whackadoodles. Especially lately. Must be a special deal running on them. Grooming doesn't seem to be an issue but they do seem to have the worst possible traits and temperament.


----------



## dogfaeries

Sabis mom said:


> I stick to GSDs because anything more then a good brushing is to much grooming for me!


It’s why I don’t own an Afghan Hound. Too much work.


----------



## Bearshandler

The only one I've met was a golden doodle. He was a sweet dog, very social and outgoing personality, good temperament wise for a family pet type dog.I never saw any aggression from him, he just could be a little to friendly when dealing with other dogs like some puppies are. He wasn't the brightest though. He was well cared for by his owner though.


----------



## GatorDog

I'm only commenting since pictures of my own dog were posted as an example of grip, but he has genetically bitten that way since puppyhood, and didn't start formal training until around 8 months old, so that is 100% genetics and in no way "nourished" through environment. Genetics are definitely a real thing..









Video von Dante vom Feuergarten


Starting protection - 8 months



www.working-dog.com


----------



## Jenny720

.


----------



## EMH

GatorDog said:


> I'm only commenting since pictures of my own dog were posted as an example of grip, but he has genetically bitten that way since puppyhood, and didn't start formal training until around 8 months old, so that is 100% genetics and in no way "nourished" through environment. Genetics are definitely a real thing..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video von Dante vom Feuergarten
> 
> 
> Starting protection - 8 months
> 
> 
> 
> www.working-dog.com


Good looking dog!


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> Yup. By any breed standard she's a loser. Which is exactly why she was never put up for adoption, she will remain with someone dedicated to making sure she is no threat to herself or others, and why she will never reproduce. No one needs more of these genetics. BUT She's my loser. And she has achieved more, fought harder then anyone expected and she has done it with a grace and spirit people should envy. This dog should be held up as a standard, not of the breed but of courage and strength. You have no idea of the odds she beat just to earn the right to be a loser.
> 
> It's also why I put my money where my mouth was and fought tirelessly to see her breeder shut down, and as many others like him as I could find. Its why I advocate for responsible rescue and ethical breeding.
> And why people who are trying to change a wonderful breed into something else get the sharp edge of my tongue.
> There will always be a market for well bred German Shepherds because people love them. A well bred dog should fit near any situation as long as it's needs are met.
> David's Valor is a perfect example of what the breed should be.


Awe, Sabis you left out Ozzy. I’m so so sad . HeHeHe (inside joke I could not resist)


----------



## BigOzzy2018

berno von der seeweise said:


> It's been a good thread, and I'm sorry to see it go sour. I'm going to crosspost my little anecdote in it's entirety because I think it speaks right to the heart of the matter at hand (no pun intended):
> 
> "I read old ddr threads and see the phrase "be careful what you wish for" a lot. I had to rehome a dog (not gsd) due to handler aggression years ago. 27 inches tall, well over 70lbs. I used to throw his ball downhill, and using the steep incline to his advantage, he'd catch it on the bounce like 10 feet in the air. He was an outstanding specimen.
> One day he was in his kennel, I had a female in heat, and his 6 month old son was loose, "on perimeter duty." Somehow the dog got out of his kennel and went after the son. I managed to catch him by the tail and he spun around on me. I thought to myself "no way this dog would ever bite me" so I stuck my hand right into his mouth. SNAP went the jawtrap.
> Bucket of cold water was no use. I had to put all my weight on top of him, and choke him off with his heavy duty prong collar. We had a very short lived love hate relationship after that, and I'll never play piano right again. So when you read that expression "be careful what you wish for." I'm telling you what, buckwheat  "
> 
> and now I'm going on hiatus for awhile
> 
> I'll be back after jack get's himself banned. won't be long


I would not say that incident was not from handler aggression rather poor handling. Dog did what came natural with a female in heat.


----------



## Sabis mom

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Awe, Sabis you left out Ozzy. I’m so so sad . HeHeHe (inside joke I could not resist)


How could I possibly forget the most awesome, and gorgeous, Ozzy!


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Sabis mom said:


> How could I possibly forget the most awesome, and gorgeous, Ozzy!


Awe, Ozzy and I feel happy now. Lol smile


----------



## berno von der seeweise

I’m compelled to submit a closing argument to this spirited debate. Perhaps more of an epilogue?

imprinting is Science  

(_ Scientia est imprimo _)

_google> working dog imprinting >_


----------



## David Winners

Huh. If only we'd have known that sooner.


----------



## Saphire

Am I the only one who finds this thread very confusing?


----------



## Sabis mom

Saphire said:


> Am I the only one who finds this thread very confusing?


It's a mess!


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> Am I the only one who finds this thread very confusing?


Peanut butter and jelly


----------



## Jax08

Saphire said:


> Am I the only one who finds this thread very confusing?


This is one of the funniest threads I've ever read. And I have half the people posting blocked.


----------



## EMH

I can't ever tell what point "berno von der seewiese" is trying to make.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

Speaking of banned, I can’t remember precisely, maybe 9 months? Maybe closer to 11 months? But it took nearly a year for little igor to finally materialize and I read archived ddr threads all over the place during that time. I may have read them all?

I recognized a certain _very deeply disturbed_ newcomer’s syntax almost immediately, because he’s been trolling dog forums everywhere for like 20 yrs. I’ve actually read that individual threaten to intentionally harm and even kill other poster’s dogs, on behalf of “the honor of protection sports." I can’t prove it was him, but I know it was; and I say again, _very deeply disturbed_.

My point being, you never really know who or what you’re talking to in cyberspace, and there’s no such thing as “too careful” when it comes to sharing personal information online. People get comfortable and let their guard down, accounts get hacked, happens all the time. *So please be on guard*. Be vigilant. Not only with your own personal info, but also with that of friends and loved ones.


----------



## EMH

That is one of the most long winded and tedious ways possible to say "*So please be on guard*."


----------



## Sabis mom

EMH said:


> That is one of the most long winded and tedious ways possible to say "*So please be on guard*."


I will be on guard for no one. Lol.


----------



## Rionel

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why don't you link to the thread?
> 
> Just because a puppy is not up to your expectations doesn't mean it's not a perfect pup for someone else. Just place it in an appropriate home.
> 
> So tell me, how are you, Rionel, Chris Svoboda, and Jakubnovotny related?


I'm not related to anyone on this post or forum as far as I can tell. My question for Mr. Winters is how much sarcasm from "MineAreWorking" does it take to offend a moderator? Unless there is equal footing, this comes off less as a forum than an ambush site. I joined for the right reasons. I was singled out and then thumped. So if this is a real forum, could you please use an even hand? MineAreWorking is bating, and should stop with the insults.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

for me personally, this forum is as close to peer review as it gets. And while I can't deny the ad hominem does occasionally fly fast and furious hereabouts, it's still the only game in town, so...

wait a minute, what?!? MAWL is banned now? Your Honor, if it pleases the court, I'd like to offer on MAWL's behalf the utmost assurance that _whatever it was_, it'll never happen again  

#freeMAWL


----------



## David Winners

Rionel said:


> I'm not related to anyone on this post or forum as far as I can tell. My question for Mr. Winters is how much sarcasm from "MineAreWorking" does it take to offend a moderator? Unless there is equal footing, this comes off less as a forum than an ambush site. I joined for the right reasons. I was singled out and then thumped. So if this is a real forum, could you please use an even hand? MineAreWorking is bating, and should stop with the insults.


MAWL is on a temporary ban. I don't know how exactly to quantify sarcasm on a scale. 

Welcome back


----------



## Rionel

David Winners said:


> MAWL is on a temporary ban. I don't know how exactly to quantify sarcasm on a scale.
> 
> Welcome back


Thank you David Winters. I'm just looking to better my work with this breed -that's the only reason I joined. I do own the GSD dog in my avatar. Not trying to offend anyone, but don't see the need to be denigrated, which is obvious in the post I referenced.


----------



## Nigel

Rionel said:


> Thank you David Winters. I'm just looking to better my work with this breed -that's the only reason I joined. I do own the GSD dog in my avatar. Not trying to offend anyone, but don't see the need to be denigrated, which is obvious in the post I referenced.


Dig into some of the older threads. Older posts from Cliffson1, Bailiff, Vandal, (others too, just don’t recall names) and they will typically be involved in more in-depth discussions.


----------



## Rionel

Much appreciated Nigel!


----------



## Sabis mom

Nigel said:


> Dig into some of the older threads. Older posts from Cliffson1, Bailiff, Vandal, (others too, just don’t recall names) and they will typically be involved in more in-depth discussions.





Rionel said:


> Much appreciated Nigel!


Look at Carmspack threads as well. Carmen has great info. There are others I cannot recall but they will eventually surface in my crowded brain. 
You learn not to respond. It sucks. Welcome back. Glad you came back.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

did someone say strawman? moving the goal posts? red herring?  

there really ought to be a _no holds barred_ subforum for "steel cage battle royal" peer review...

that's where I'd hang


----------



## Jax08

Rionel said:


> I'm not related to anyone on this post or forum as far as I can tell. My question for Mr. Winters is how much sarcasm from "MineAreWorking" does it take to offend a moderator? Unless there is equal footing, this comes off less as a forum than an ambush site. I joined for the right reasons. I was singled out and then thumped. So if this is a real forum, could you please use an even hand? MineAreWorking is bating, and should stop with the insults.


FYI - you can put someone on ignore and you won't even see their posts. I highly recommend it.


----------



## Rionel

Sabis mom said:


> Look at Carmspack threads as well. Carmen has great info. There are others I cannot recall but they will eventually surface in my crowded brain.
> You learn not to respond. It sucks. Welcome back. Glad you came back.


Will do. I have seen several good things about Carmspack already. Appreciate the suggestion!


----------



## Rionel

Jax08 said:


> FYI - you can put someone on ignore and you won't even see their posts. I highly recommend it.


Good to know, thank you.


----------



## David Winners

berno von der seeweise said:


> did someone say strawman? moving the goal posts? red herring?
> 
> there really ought to be a _no holds barred_ subforum for "steel cage battle royal" peer review...
> 
> that's where I'd hang


There is another forum for that, but alas, it is rather slow these days and you don't meet the membership requirements.


----------



## berno von der seeweise

thanks anyway, but was I thinking more along the lines of clinical Ethology

you should google that


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I belong to a fabulous working dog forum with an emphasis on ethology!


----------



## dogsUSA

[[removed, heed Mod warning below]]


----------



## car2ner

please people. We have enough arguing in the world. Take a break.


----------



## Koshkonong

Rionel said:


> I have a 4 generation pedigree on my dog and cannot find much information on one of the dogs/breeders further back on the dam side. The dog is Perlich's Duke and I assume the breeder is Perlich. "Duke" appears twice if I trace that back thru the pedigree database online so I assume he had some good strengths. There are a couple other dogs from Perlich as well, so I tend to think there was a breeding program of some sort.
> 
> I'm interested to know if anyone has any information on Perlich's dogs? I can't find pictures or other real information of any Perlich dogs online. Thanks for any info you may have.


I have a female I purchased from Cody Perlich Indiana in 2018. He is a young man and his parents raised GSD all his childhood as farm ranch dogs. He’s continuing the line. I’ve tried to reach him by the phone number we previously used but I think he changed numbers. His and his parents dogs are straight back working family dogs. Mine is so perfect in every way and congenital defects free as well I was hoping to purchase another one, but I can’t reach Cody. I’d appreciate some help too.


----------



## Sabis mom

Koshkonong said:


> I have a female I purchased from Cody Perlich Indiana in 2018. He is a young man and his parents raised GSD all his childhood as farm ranch dogs. He’s continuing the line. I’ve tried to reach him by the phone number we previously used but I think he changed numbers. His and his parents dogs are straight back working family dogs. Mine is so perfect in every way and congenital defects free as well I was hoping to purchase another one, but I can’t reach Cody. I’d appreciate some help too.


Pics of your dog? Pedigree?


----------



## Rionel

Koshkonong said:


> I have a female I purchased from Cody Perlich Indiana in 2018. He is a young man and his parents raised GSD all his childhood as farm ranch dogs. He’s continuing the line. I’ve tried to reach him by the phone number we previously used but I think he changed numbers. His and his parents dogs are straight back working family dogs. Mine is so perfect in every way and congenital defects free as well I was hoping to purchase another one, but I can’t reach Cody. I’d appreciate some help too.


That's interesting for sure. At the time I posted this, I was only able to find some historical stuff on Perlich livestock, so if you find anything I'd be interested in more info. I was able to trace farther back on the pedigree and am really just interested in his conformation. My ped shows him DNA tested. At least three other legs of my dogs pedigree make the WG/DDR/Czech transition, with DDR fairly thick. That's the curiosity I had with Duke. Thanks.


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## Rionel

Koshkonong said:


> I have a female I purchased from Cody Perlich Indiana in 2018. He is a young man and his parents raised GSD all his childhood as farm ranch dogs. He’s continuing the line. I’ve tried to reach him by the phone number we previously used but I think he changed numbers. His and his parents dogs are straight back working family dogs. Mine is so perfect in every way and congenital defects free as well I was hoping to purchase another one, but I can’t reach Cody. I’d appreciate some help too.


Just for grins, I have finally resolved this inquiry tonight, in tracking down the infamous "Perlich's Duke". According to the lady I spoke with, who owned Duke, he was from a family bred line of GSD, weighed 130lbs Silver/Grey dog, and was sold to another breeder that bred my dog's maternal grandmother, Nikita. She was adamant that these were not show dogs. I am familiar with the breeder Duke was sold to, and again, he does not breed show dogs. His dogs, like my dog's maternal grandmother off of Duke, are of excellent structure. Can't speak to working abilities, or if they're just pet quality etc.., but according to the lady I spoke with, Duke, like the Perlich line were very good GSD guard dogs. Just goes to show that just because a naming convention isn't German, does not apparently make a GSD a show-line, which has been surmised by others in this thread. And speaking from first hand experience of my dog being crossed with good working lines and this Perlich dog, I have yet to meet anyone who is not impressed with her resolve and confirmation. And, any loose dogs that run free out here in the country, that have run up to intimidate her, do it once. I don't know Berno or anyone who are interested in looking for older blood (I am not at this point) but I think this lends a little credence to their thoughts on breeding, and discovering some genes that may have gotten preserved.


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