# Is Max's vision obsolete?



## [email protected] (Dec 9, 2009)

Three years ago I began educating myself on the GSD. I began with the premise that breeding is more important than breed as long as the breed chosen met my requirements. I found the WGSD was the most likely candidate and after having a Czech and a Czech/DDR I am quite satisfied with my breed of choice. I am however concerned with the breed as a whole. It seems to me that "Utility and Intelligence" and a standard that promotes what I call a good dog takes a backseat to the market demands of people who would probably be better served by another breed. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, I only want a clearer understanding from the perspective of the people who are trying to preserve the breed.

BYB's and mills will always exist. They do not warrant discussion. The debate between the various working lines 
is fascinating, but is still a bit beyond me at this time. What I don't understand is how at an AKC conformation show a dog who is crippled (the 'frog dogs') is allowed to represent anything but an animal cruelty charge. What is it about cosmetics that allows a person to intentionally breed a dog that they know will likely live a short and uncomfortable (to say the least) life. I know that many, if not most showline people care about their dogs, and yet this still happens. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with wanting a beautiful dog if it can be done responsibly. I have seen pedigrees with show/working lines and it makes me wonder if the WLs are being diluted. This is not showline bashing, just questions.

I am also aware of a breeder of working lines with several well titled bitches who uses a single stud, untitled for two generations who is well oversized by any standard and produces males in the 120# range. I will note that his dogs have been successful in SAR. I don't agree with his rationale, but I understand why-he has to make a living and people feel that bigger is better. Is this type of breeding common and how does it affect the breed as a whole? This person at times has pet only breedings. Is this "dumbing down" and is it necessary? 

Is the diversion of of quality dogs to non-working homes a concern of breeders? This is very important to me because I can't promise that I will title my dog although I'm sure my son will. In all likelihood my next dog, as do my current dogs. will bear the title 'Family Dog'. To me this is not the same as a pet. They will be trained and have a job, even if it is only as a companion, part-time tracker and security consultant. 

I guess my main question is this-what is wrong with the original standard and why isn't it adhered to? I do have one last concern about Schutzhund commands. How do you give the command 'Bring me a beer' in German and how do you train a dog in the importance of not shaking the can? Thank you,MWS


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Be careful what you ask for with the beer........my friends dog was trained to bring him beer.......then they couldnt keep her out of the fridge..........


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:I guess my main question is this-what is wrong with the original standard and why isn't it adhered to?


$$$$$$$$$$$ That and the human desire to always change things to their own vision of perfection.


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## SpeedBump (Dec 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Crawfish people feel that bigger is better.


I like them large so I don't have to bend over to pet them or have them hand me things.









The world changes, most people don't need a working dog in this day and age. As a result most working breeds have been diluted over the past several decades for show and pet purposes. People who need a working dog do their best to keep working lines going. Just my humble opinion.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I would argue that if the dog isn't a working dog then it really fails the criteria to be a GSD. I am not saying that your love bucket on the couch is NOT a GSD because you don't go out and do dogsports, have a ranch, are a K9 handler...I am referring to the breeding stock used to produce the dog. We know good working GSDs can produce dogs that are not breedworthy.

People can interpret Max everywhich way from Sunday, but my understanding from the snippets i have read the GSD is to be a WORKING DOG at its core - that is part of the breeding ideal. I do not think Max vision in this regard has been rendered obsolete as there are many dedicated breeders worldwide trying their damnedest to produce working GSDs

It irks me when a breeder produces consistently something that cannot work due to structure, will not work due to temperament and then quote Max himself on their business cards, website, etc. 

It does go back to MONEY and STATUS


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I saw some 130 pound GSDs on the internet tonight... Sold only as pets... AKC registered and what not. To see the GSD go into something like that is really sad. 

Too bad all dogs do not have to pass a breed standard test to be registered. 

IF they did I would guess the AKC would change the standard since they are all about money also.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The SV does require breed standard testing. The problem is the SV (German registry) and the AKC (American Kennel Club) are very different entities. The SV is ONLY GSDs. The AKC has over a hundred breeds. Each breed has a standard, but each breed does not have a criteria of tests required to register the puppies. 

A couple of years ago, I thought that the GSDCA could easily set up a registry that requires a similar set of tests that the SV does, health, titles, breed survey, endurance test, etc. This is when I was just getting into showing and joining the breed club, etc. 

At this point, I find it next to impossible to believe that the people in America that own GSDs will EVER come together for the good of the breed. Conformation people do not see any use for working line people. They smile and nod their heads and clap politely when obedience, rally, agility, or even herding trials are bragged about in the brag section. But the proof is in the pudding so to speak, they do not care about us and would be perfectly happy if we went away. I say this because of the long conversation I had with the person who judged agility and rally at the nationals, how she and her stewards were treated, etc. Clubs are not offering obedience and rally at their shows, and conformation dogs are rarely entered. 

In all honesty, working line people scoff a lot at the conformation dogs and diss their temperaments, their structure, etc. 

The seeing eye (I believe this was the organization) had their own breeding program for years, but because of changing needs and problems in temperament, GSDs are not being used so much any more for seeing eye dogs.

Police dogs are generally imported from other countries because the belief is that there is nothing in the states that is sufficient. 

I expect people who want schutzhund dogs, breed and raise dogs suited to that.

People who want herding dogs, breed and raise dogs suited to that.

People who want SAR dogs breed and raise dogs suited to that.

Some of what they do with the dogs overlap, but they will not come together with show or even performance event people.

And then you have the outliers, those who specifically breed for off colors, blues, livers; white sheps, black shepherds --though acceptable, they often want so many generations of just blacks. Coats, oversized dogs. 

If our breed would come together and just require a basic minimum, it would not be enough, and people wouldn't bother. I mean just hips and elbows, a temperament test, a title, and a breed survey. People would have to agree on the breed survey being simply, no disqualifying faults, but again, it would not be enough, it would cost money and time, and people wouldn't bother. 

There is a breeders code in the GSDCA that people can sign and put on their advertisements/websites, but there is no enforcement to speak of. And too few people know what it consists of. 

I don't know the answer. I wish people would stop putting the other dogs down. No one wants to hear that their dog is unworthy to be called a GSD because it is a show dog, or it has a straight back or it is a long coat or it is white or it is not trained for any type of work, or it has too soft a temperament to do the job.


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## [email protected] (Dec 9, 2009)

I thank all of you for the insight. I guess if an organization like the UN can't agree on a world vision for humanity it's a bit much to expect it to happen for dogs. I just want to do what I can to give my grandkids the chance to have a dog like Nomie.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopi...not-brains.html



Breeding decisions do matter. Genetics tend to work that way. Seems American education is not the only thing on the "dumbing down" track.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerIf our breed would come together and just require a basic minimum, it would not be enough, and people wouldn't bother.


If there was a requirement for hips/elbows to be clear and a basic test like the Swedish Mental test then it would be a huge step in the right direction. 

People would bother if they could not get registration papers for their litters without fullfilling these requirments with the sire/dam.


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