# choosing the right breeder in Ontario



## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

Just in the infant stages of my quest for the right gsd. I am looking for a healthy family pet and protector. I live on a 1/2 acre country home in Caledon with my wife and two kids ages 12 and 8. We have no other pets and are very active. This would be my 2nd gsd. We are looking for a spring 2016 puppy.
Of course health and temperament is the priority but lets face it we all have varying opinions on the perfect look of the dog. We want a large dog 100 lbs plus with a big masque line head, big boned, wide chest. Bigger dogs in my opinion are just more majestic. A Dark sable male would be our first choice but a darker black and tan or red is a close second. Not a fan of the over angulation but some angulation is fine. 
So far I have tried to contact a couple of breeders and I have gotten no responses. 

The first that did respond was carmspack, Carmen was absolutely wonderful to talk with , she is a wealth of knowledge. 

The next breeder was summerview in Acton, Very nice people. Great looking dogs especially one of their males "Nitro" 

The above mentioned male came from a kennel in Arthur called Wild Winds. I have not contacted them yet but they seem to have a mix of German working and showlines, very nice looking large dogs.

Does any one have any first hand experience with summerview or wild winds.
Thanks in advace


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"We want a large dog 100 lbs plus with a big masque line head, big boned, wide chest. Bigger dogs in my opinion are just more majestic. "

but it is just plain wrong -- the dog you like is out of shape and is wet , dangling flews (like on a st Bernard) -- not a power masculine head


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so come on out to the German shepherd dog club of Canada's annual National show GSDCC - Canadian National
I'll introduce you to some people .
If you want to look at American show lines .


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

carmspack said:


> so come on out to the German shepherd dog club of Canada's annual National show GSDCC - Canadian National
> I'll introduce you to some people .
> If you want to look at American show lines .


I will definitely come check out the Kitchener show.
Are you trying to say that the dogs I find appealing are considered American show lines?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the dogs you find appealing are not within the breed standard regardless of lines. what many here would consider an ethical and reputable breeder... who is striving to improve the breed... who work, train, show, title their dogs as well as perform all the necessary health screenings, etc, are not going to intentionally produce dogs so far out of standard merely in response to the demand. that said... many breeders do and among these breeders it's very common to cross different lines to achieve whatever it is they're after be it size, color, or whatever. 100lbs is an XL GSD let alone an "average sized male" as some sites suggest. "east and west german champions" in a pedigree is pretty vague - champions of what?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

of the breeders you've inquired about, one appears to breed WL and the other, WL/WGSL/ASL dogs. aside from appearance - I'm not sure what else appeals to you.


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

"We want a large dog 100 lbs plus with a big masque line head, big boned, wide chest. Bigger dogs in my opinion are just more majestic. "
Have you looked at Shiloh Shepherds? or even what they call King Shepherds?They fit your requirements and make great family pets, I know they are not a true GSD being mixed with Pyrs, Malamutes and Newfoundlanders for the size but looks wise it's exactly what you are describing you want.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

character is what makes a dog majestic , not size.

the dog you like is out of condition , soft , "wet" with flews (lips) that you would see on a st Bernard -- too heavy 

what was the pedigree of the dog that you had previously?

so far you have looked into American show lines . 
I think at this point of your education you would fall in love with the first little fur ball that gave your hand a lick !! any cute face .

remember our conversation . I said GSD aren't simple anymore . There is no one breed and there are 3 distinct genetic sub groups , American , west German show, and the third is being split into sport and working .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so we meet at the American show lines big annual National specialty show which show cases Canada's (basically American line combinations) and USA's top winning American "specialty" (as opposed to all-breed) GSD's competing for Grand Victor/Victrix . Later in October a similar event will be held in the USA for the same title in a show held by the GSDCofA. 

Have a look at the obedience trials .

Then Oct 3 and 4 Capital City Schutzhund club is holding a trial , working - sport , schutzhund - IPO trial . Capital City Schutzhund Club | Member of the WUSV and GSSCC in the ontario Region held in Pickering so not at all far from your home-base.

This will introduce you to "European" working GSD . A totally different dynamic. You have to decide what potential you want , and where you think you might best be able to get it.


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

carmspack said:


> character is what makes a dog majestic , not size.
> 
> the dog you like is out of condition , soft , "wet" with flews (lips) that you would see on a st Bernard -- too heavy
> 
> ...


 First and foremost the dog we (my family)are looking for has to be healthy and temperamentally sound. The dogs we find "good looking" may not be within the breed standards but preserving the breed is not my concern. With all due respect we like what we like and who gives anyone the right to say otherwise. There are plenty of purists out there to preserve the breed and that's a great thing but I am not one of them. This dog will be a family pet therefore all those fancy titles are not relevant .He will not be used for sport with the exception of fetching a ball or Frisbee in the backyard.
I found my first gsd from a newspaper.He cost me $150.00 I was young and those were pre internet days. He was twelve when he died and was absolutely amazing. I was told he was from a working line and had the look of a working dog but who knows. No pedigree.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Bird, this may sound bad, but if you just want a pet to 'play frisbee in the backyard', and 'do not care about fancy titles', may I suggest you save yourself a lot of time and money and go to the local pound! It may take a while, you say you are not in a hurry.. German Shepherds deserve so much more than a backyard, ball and frisbee!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

bird said:


> First and foremost the dog we (my family)are looking for has to be healthy and temperamentally sound. The dogs we find "good looking" may not be within the breed standards but preserving the breed is not my concern. With all due respect we like what we like and who gives anyone the right to say otherwise. There are plenty of purists out there to preserve the breed and that's a great thing but I am not one of them. This dog will be a family pet therefore all those fancy titles are not relevant .He will not be used for sport with the exception of fetching a ball or Frisbee in the backyard.
> I found my first gsd from a newspaper.He cost me $150.00 I was young and those were pre internet days. He was twelve when he died and was absolutely amazing. I was told he was from a working line and had the look of a working dog but who knows. No pedigree.


 Them why on earth would you come here looking for a breeder?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...would also suggest rescue-otherwise you are supporting breeders who don't breed to the standard


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

Just look for the right temperament to fit your family! If he or she ends up being bigger than average then that's a plus for you. We just got Max our new boy and he is 100lbs at 16mths old. Is he to standard NO but his temperament and gentleness is what won us over.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

bird said:


> First and foremost the dog we (my family)are looking for has to be healthy and temperamentally sound. The dogs we find "good looking" may not be within the breed standards but preserving the breed is not my concern. With all due respect we like what we like and who gives anyone the right to say otherwise. There are plenty of purists out there to preserve the breed and that's a great thing but I am not one of them. This dog will be a family pet therefore all those fancy titles are not relevant .He will not be used for sport with the exception of fetching a ball or Frisbee in the backyard.
> I found my first gsd from a newspaper.He cost me $150.00 I was young and those were pre internet days. He was twelve when he died and was absolutely amazing. I was told he was from a working line and had the look of a working dog but who knows. No pedigree.


I don’t want a show dog; I just want a pet. | Ruffly Speaking

Read the article and digest some of it. 

I'm sure you don't mean to come off insulting but the way you worded your response frankly is insulting to those who dedicate themselves to being responsible breed stewards. 

You will not find a responsible breeder breeding for 'large size' or 'straight backs' or whatever buzzword of the moment is to attract puppy buyers. People like that have a term - they aren't breeders. They're "greeders' - breeding dogs willy nilly with no regards to bloodlines, standard, health, temperament, or really anything that makes a German Shepherd a German Shepherd.

If you INSIST on an oversize dog with German-Shepherd-like appearance than I echo the other poster who advised you to look at a Shiloh or King Shepherd.


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

I never meant to come across as insulting but lets get real hear their are many wonderful gsd's that are slightly oversized and are great dogs. 
Once again PLEASE TAKE NOTE I feel that the breeders who preserve the original dogs and conform to the breed standards are doing a wonderful thing and I hope they continue to do so. I just don't agree with all other dogs outside that standard being terrible dogs, its just not true. I have first hand experience with this.
It is great to be passionate about something but just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't give you the right to make them feel inferior. People take life to seriously these days and that is very evident here. No one has the right to tell me what I should or shouldn't like or get. 
I came on here asking for some non bias testimonials on the above mentioned breeders and Instead of being helped I was spoken to like a child. 
I am not looking for a just a backyard Frisbee dog but I am not going to show or involve the dog in any competitive trials. He will be a family pet and protector. He will be actively involved in many physically demanding recreational family activities.
In my opinion the breeders that are breeding dogs outside the breed standard have a right to do so as long as they are doing it in an ethical way and breeding sound healthy dogs and that is why I asked and will ask again, Does anyone here have any first hand experience with any of the dogs from these breeders? If you don't please keep your opinions to youself.
Thank you


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

Miss Molly May said:


> Just look for the right temperament to fit your family! If he or she ends up being bigger than average then that's a plus for you. We just got Max our new boy and he is 100lbs at 16mths old. Is he to standard NO but his temperament and gentleness is what won us over.


 Thanks for the PM unfortunately I Cannot respond until I have over 15 posts. But once again thanks for the response


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I informed you of this forum , pointed out threads so that you could update your education on the status of the breed , and recommended breeders who have experience, a track record of accomplishments and are recognized for their ethics .
I extended my self by offering to take you around and introduce you to some of the people at the dog show, and again, at a schutzhund trial . I don't have anything to gain. You do though, by avoiding many pitfalls , such as temperament and health issues.
I felt it was a continuation of our first conversation. 

you said "I came on here asking for some non bias testimonials on the above mentioned breeders "

but you didn't like the answers. 

There are many posts scattered over the years over the forum discussing pet dogs being bred for more pet dogs, which is different than a pet dog from a litter of well bred GSD with attention to correct type , character, and build . 
A good breeder will scrutinize you as much as you do them . 
Fast and easy reservations and let us know the sex colour and colour band you want is like a catalogue shop at the old Consumers Distributing .

I'll leave it there -- wish you good luck .


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

bird said:


> I never meant to come across as insulting but lets get real hear their are many wonderful gsd's that are slightly oversized and are great dogs.
> Once again PLEASE TAKE NOTE I feel that the breeders who preserve the original dogs and conform to the breed standards are doing a wonderful thing and I hope they continue to do so. I just don't agree with all other dogs outside that standard being terrible dogs, its just not true. I have first hand experience with this.
> It is great to be passionate about something but just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't give you the right to make them feel inferior. People take life to seriously these days and that is very evident here. No one has the right to tell me what I should or shouldn't like or get.
> I came on here asking for some non bias testimonials on the above mentioned breeders and Instead of being helped I was spoken to like a child.
> ...


You came on here asking for advice and got advice from people who have done so much for the breed and are a wealth of knowledge and do want the best for you, your family, and future pet.

And instead you throw it back in their faces and ask people to keep their opinions to themselves (when you asked for unbiased opinions in the first place??).

A breeder breeding with a goal of producing oversize dogs as you want is flat out not reputable. And this is not some "purist" non-sense. A breeder breeding for over large German shepherds knows there is a market for the look and the dogs. People will be lured in by appearance and so to the breeder that's all that matters. Health testing? Maybe they'll do the bare minimum to look good if that. Titling? Why waste money on the dog? No need to prove the dog as a worthy contributor to the breed people won't care! You see it now too with people breeding for the raccoon eyed black sable DDR dogs. And breeding for appearance and size or coat. It's a pretty big red flag. So people tried to steer you away. 

But you don't care. That's fine people said a rescue might be an option. Rather than support a bad breeder. No. So people said that King or Shiloh shepherds might suit you better than a German shepherd as they have the look you want. 

People are not trying to make you feel inferior. People are trying to help and guide you. But you don't care and don't want to learn and are insulting. 

People are not being mean or elitist or purist. They want to help you find a good breeder and a good healthy representative of the breed in your future dog. They have nothing to gain from this. 

Honestly do think on why you want a German shepherd. What appeals to you about the breed. If you are still hung up on size than this will not be the breed for you as it will be hard to get what you want without going to a bad breeder. (Been there done that have the anguish to show for it). If so I suggest a Shiloh or King Shepherd they would fit your criteria pretty well.


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

Carmen, I do appreciate everything you have done for me, believe me I do, but when you make comments like "you would fall in love with the first little fur ball that gave your hand a lick !! any cute face" it comes across as condescending. I have been around all types of dogs my whole life.
Once again I am not trying to be insulting but you cannot tell me that all larger gsd's are breed poorly. 

No one has been able to give me any first hand experience with the two particula
r breeders. The fact remains that the condemnation of the two questionable breeders is not factual but just assumptions. If someone was to come on here and state that these particular breeders sold them a terrible dog than that would be different. How can you group all breeders that have bigger dogs as bad breeders? These bigger dogs are still gsd's. Does a larger dog not have the right to reproduce? That just isn't fair. 
Anyhow I will continue to research all breeders and make informed decision based on facts and not just opinions.

btw, that article on I don’t want a show dog; I just want a pet. | Ruffly Speaking is totally irrelevant to my situation. I never made any mention of cost. I will pay top dollar for the right dog.

Thanks for your help.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

-when a breeder is intentionally selecting large GSD -outside the standard-they are no longer breeding to the standard-that's is not in my opinion a good breeder-Read the GSD standard-since you say you want to make an informed decision


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have two dogs from one of the above mentioned breeders and know SEVERAL others from the same kennel and or from related dogs.

I suggest taking Carmen's and other's advice and look elsewhere.


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> I have two dogs from one of the above mentioned breeders and know SEVERAL others from the same kennel and or from related dogs.
> 
> I suggest taking Carmen's and other's advice and look elsewhere.


Thank you so much. That is exactly what I was looking for, first hand experience not just assumptions. Could I ask you to elaborate a little more through a pm. It would remain strictly confidential.

Thanks again


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I only speak in person about my experience... but your more than welcome to come out to one of our club events (KW GSD) to meet several dogs from some of the breeders you mentioned. I believe all owners would give you the same advice I just did.


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

Where and when is a good time to meet you and some of the members you mentioned.
Thanks


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am not sure if you are on Facebook or not, but you can either find us on there or visit our website to contact us. 

Link is below in my signature. 

We also have dogs from some local breeders who I would recommend in a heart beat, some members and others who come out weekly that you can meet as well.


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

My wife is on facebook. I will get her to take a look and arrange a trip out your way.

Thanks again


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bird, you said that your old German Shepherd was a BYB dog that you paid $150 for. I hear that.

Please let me share Sabi's story.

Sabi was the love of my life, my soul mate, my partner, my very best friend. I got to share my life with her for almost 13 years and I am grateful every day for every one of those days. She was a dream of a dog, supremely intelligent, loving, loyal, protective. She was up for anything, she raised dozens of foster pups with me as well as chickens, goats, kittens, robins and one jackrabbit named Steve. She watched over any child in her vicinity with a diligence and dedication unmatched. And she saved my life, and walked beside me, and watched my back every night at work. There is a very special bond that develops from knowing that if push comes to shove, your dog is the only thing standing between you and the scum of the earth. For almost 8 years she did her job, a long career.
She was a big girl. Big boned, just big, thick, solid and unstoppable. She came from a BYB.
I lost her to DM, just a few months shy of her 13th birthday. Yes she was old, yes they all go sometime but what a horrible way to go. My beautiful warrior, who lived to be at my side could barely stand and walk to the door. I got a front row ticket to watch my girl disappear one piece at a time.
Anyway, my long and rambling point is, I like big dogs. I like big, solid, dark GSD's that fool my heart into thinking I can replace her. I would never do her memory the disservice of buying a pup from any breeder who wasn't doing it right. Because she suffered for me, not with pain, but with the pain of not being at my side and the pain of knowing that I hurt every time I looked at her struggling to be near me.
My male is slightly over sized, but came from 'normal' sized parents, who were health tested, titled, working dogs, he turned 13 last month and is still trying to jump fences. Big dogs pop up more often then many breeders would like, just like kids outgrowing their parents. It's when breeders purposely breed outside the standard that things go wrong. 
A great dog is a great dog, regardless of breeding but we do the breed we all love a disservice when we try and make them into something they aren't. 
If you want a big dog look for breeders that breed the larger side of standard, because when the focus shifts to hard to looks and size, things like health, temperament and longevity seem to go out the window.

Sorry for the novel


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Bird, you said that your old German Shepherd was a BYB dog that you paid $150 for. I hear that.
> 
> Please let me share Sabi's story.
> 
> ...


Please don't apologize, I really appreciate you sharing your story with me. Sabi sounds wonderful, a lot like my first gsd. Sorry for your loss. The two reasons why it has taken me so long to finally look into getting another dog is, one, my kids had to be old enough to appreciate the dog and two I will never forget the sorrow I felt when I lost my dog and I am hesitant to go through that again even if it's years from now, He died from stomach cancer at twelve years. He was otherwise perfectly healthy until that point.
I see your point in regards to byb. Yes you are taking a risk with them. But The breeders I was looking into seemed to indicate that their dogs were health tested that's why I was considering them. I still want a large dog, not a monster but just slightly bigger than the breed standard. but I will not take any chances with health and temperament. That's why I started this thread. 

Thanks again


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

bird said:


> Please don't apologize, I really appreciate you sharing your story with me. Sabi sounds wonderful, a lot like my first gsd. Sorry for your loss. The two reasons why it has taken me so long to finally look into getting another dog is, one, my kids had to be old enough to appreciate the dog and two I will never forget the sorrow I felt when I lost my dog and I am hesitant to go through that again even if it's years from now, He died from stomach cancer at twelve years. He was otherwise perfectly healthy until that point.
> I see your point in regards to byb. Yes you are taking a risk with them. But The breeders I was looking into seemed to indicate that their dogs were health tested that's why I was considering them. I still want a large dog, not a monster but just slightly bigger than the breed standard. but I will not take any chances with health and temperament. That's why I started this thread.
> 
> Thanks again


 My problem is health testing is great, but demand proof not just their word and are the dogs healthy? As in well conditioned and well kept. I know nothing about either breeder, but overweight dogs are a serious concern for me. And the dog you liked, he is handsome, looks fat.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Health and Temperament testing an individual dog is just part of it. The knowledge of how the lines interact and the overall genetic characteristics of the dogs in the pedigree is what your good breeders do and that takes a lifetime of study. 

I think if you are going with a BYB to get the features you want that are outside of the breed standard (and not bred for by those wanting to improve/maintain the breed), then you would be safest with a repeat breeding of two very similar parents. Repeat, as in, "it worked the first time with no major issues"

Not my cup of tea ... to me the breed is intended as a medium sized working dog but....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yes to this 
"Health and Temperament testing an individual dog is just part of it. The knowledge of how the lines interact and the overall genetic characteristics of the dogs in the pedigree is what your good breeders do and that takes a lifetime of study." 

never mind the platitudes using the oft quoted von Stephanitz words -- all empty unless you pay attention and try to follow it -- keep my dog a working dog -- then breed for it and test for it.

No clue why this male is so suitable for the females???


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## bird (Aug 30, 2015)

Got off work a little earlier today so my wife and I went for a trip to Olympus in Orangeville and Wild Winds in Arthur. Saw some great looking dogs. Met some really nice people. 
Looking forward to the Kitchener show that Carmen recommended. At this point I am just going to take in as much information as possible and keep an open mind.


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