# Vaccination opinions?



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

My pup will be 19 weeks tomorrow and so far he's had the two DHPP(I think that's the abbreviation so correct me if I'm wrong) and he's due for a third.

I've read though that the third is optional but I know my vet is going to push it. I'm considering not getting it but we live in a pretty heavily populated area with people and dogs... Any thoughts?

Thanks!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

what age was he when he had the other two shots?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

In our rescue and our personal dogs, this is the schedule we use.

Community Practice Vaccination Protocols from the College of Veterinary Medicine

_DA2PP
Puppies 6,10 and 14 weeks or 8, 12 and 16 weeks
Repeat 1 year later
Then repeat every 3 years
Each patient should be evaluated for increased risk of exposure – may consider yearly protocols for these patients
Give in right shoulder

Rabies
Start puppies at 12-16 weeks of age
Repeat 1 year later
Then repeat every 3 years or as required by state, provincial, and/or local requirements
Give in right rear limb_


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> what age was he when he had the other two shots?


About 8 weeks for the first and 14 weeks for the second


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

The number of vaccines doesn't matter. What matters is the age at which they're given. If the last one was at 14 weeks I would give 1 more to be safe.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Usually it's at 8, 12 and 16. Since he was younger than 16 weeks, I would get the third shot


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Carriesue said:


> About 8 weeks for the first and 14 weeks for the second


Yes, you missed a vaccine. Give 1 more, anyway.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks everyone! Completely my fault(I have been really sick until late last week and honestly it just completely slipped my mind), will make an appt right away!


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

After having my boy almost die from a Rabies vaccine, I am even more limited vax than before.

So here is what I have always done with my dogs:

Distemper and Parvo: 7 weeks (at breeder), 16 weeks I either do it at home myself, or bring them to the vet...THATS IT, for life.

If it is one of my competition dogs, then I have to do Rabies for travel outside of Canada. So that is all I get done, and apparently that is still not safe!

Now, with that said, we have not had a reported case of Rabies as far back as I can search (1998), so I see no reason to vaccinate against something with such a small chance of occuring, for my "pet" dogs. I would check your area before you decide what is best for you and your dog.

BUT, we have about 3 Parvo outbreaks a year within our local shelter, and parvo in stray puppies is pretty rampant, and I have still never had a problem. I don't bring my dogs to the dog park ( we don't have one) and I do not bring them to the parts of town where the stray dogs congregate (yes, there are well known areas).

I have six dogs currently, but I have had about 10 fosters in the last 5 years (some longer than others) and they have all followed this, and all did fine. The youngest foster was 4 weeks when I took him on and 12 weeks when he left.

My dogs are 10, 6, 3, 2, 18 months and 12 months.

I would talk with your vet, get their opinion. Ask them questions, like how prevalent are these things I am vaccinating for in my area? Do you have any data to support your claim?

You can then do some quick internet clicking, and I am certain you can figure out what is going to be the best decision based on your research and what you are comfortable with.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

N Smith said:


> After having my boy almost die from a Rabies vaccine, I am even more limited vax than before.
> 
> So here is what I have always done with my dogs:
> 
> ...


Unfortunately in California rabies is required by law by four months of age(though I'm going to wait till 6 months) and done every I think three years after that. I do not want to do yearly vaccs after this though I will find out what might be in our area first. I've lost three animals in the last 4 years to cancer... I'm trying to be more proactive now in how I approach these things.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Ky has had the rabies, parvo and distemper vaccines ... each done individually a month apart, then the second set, and that's it. I will titer before I ever vaccinate again. 

I lost my last dog Abby to the rabies vaccine, and it will be over MY dead body before I lose another dog to a vaccine. 

If you can titer, I would do that (after you've done the initial vaccines) instead of vaccinating yearly or even every three years. 

Humans don't get vaccinated every year or even every three years, so why should our dogs?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

NOT vaccinating for rabies is beyond foolish. Sorry your boy had such a bad reaction, but most dogs do not. I would find out who the manufacturer was and if it was MLV or a killed vaccine for future reference. I would prefer they extend the 3 year rabies to a 7 year, but at least we have a 3 year. It is required by law (at least in the U.S., I can't speak for other countries), so it doesn't really matter what we think. Some counties will waive a rabies vaccine in lieu of a titer.

If you're scared of the DHPP and only plan on doing it once for the lifetime of the dog you should be doing it at 12 weeks then 16 weeks. Doing it at 7 weeks will provide absolutely NO immunity because mama's antibodies are still protecting the little one. Again, very few dogs have reactions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You can contact the Dept of Agriculture and they will tell you if a titer for rabies is acceptable or not...it isn't in Illinois(I tried that one). Besides the puppy shots, my dogs will have 2 adult distemper shots in their lives and rabies every three years..wouldn't even do that if it wasn't the law. I think that the parvo is more likely to happen then rabies, but it is what it is.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Our dogs get the DHPP yearly and the rabies every 3 years now that they changed that. What do you think about the kennel cough vac? They said now they allow once a year instead of within every 6 months. We usually only get when we're going to board them, which we are pretty soon. Clipper will be 12 years old the 18th of this month, kind of wondered about another vac. He had his DHPP in July. The kennel requires it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

readaboutdogs said:


> Our dogs get the DHPP yearly and the rabies every 3 years now that they changed that. What do you think about the kennel cough vac? They said now they allow once a year instead of within every 6 months. We usually only get when we're going to board them, which we are pretty soon. Clipper will be 12 years old the 18th of this month, kind of wondered about another vac. He had his DHPP in July. The kennel requires it.


Do they offer a 3 year distemper by you?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Carriesue said:


> Unfortunately in California rabies is required by law by four months of age(though I'm going to wait till 6 months) ...


Well, they have to CATCH you first, don't they? 

We have a kennel license that allows us to have the pack of dogs we have (actually allows up to 12). Every year in January we have to apply for the license. Part of that is showing that everyone is current on Rabies.

So far I've managed to get my puppies to at LEAST 9 months of age before having to get their Rabies shot.

So - personally, I would wait until you HAVE to get the shot.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Verivus said:


> NOT vaccinating for rabies is beyond foolish.


This.



> Humans don't get vaccinated every year or even every three years, so why should our dogs?


Because they are animals and we are humans?
Because their life expectancy is around 12-14yrs. (for GSDs, it seems 11-13) and ours is around 80?
That's just off the top of my head.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> This.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha......and we don't go around sniffing each others butts and sticking our noses in poop......


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

sparra said:


> Haha......and we don't go around sniffing each others butts and sticking our noses in poop......


There ya go...! LOL

Seriously though, parvo is transmitted because dogs sniff each other's poo so much!


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I am making him an appt tomorrow for his third parvo + distemper and am definitely getting his rabies(though won't lie I will have a total knot in my stomach that day until I know he won't have a reaction, can't help it he's my baby  ). I am going to wait at least a month after this last vacc to get it(rabies) though. All of my other dogs do and are licensed so he won't be any different.

Whether I do yearly vaccs or titer for him is still something I'm ruminating over but I appreciate all the advice/thoughts!


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I didn't say NEVER vaccinate the dog .. I said I wouldn't vaccinate WITHOUT titering first.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Verivus said:


> NOT vaccinating for rabies is beyond foolish. Sorry your boy had such a bad reaction, but most dogs do not. I would find out who the manufacturer was and if it was MLV or a killed vaccine for future reference..


My dog is rabies exempt, and reactions are a lot more common than you think. After doing research, I have found that most vets do not take the time to report mild reactions (swollen faces, cysts at the injection site etc), and also some will not report even severe reactions, because they do not want to admit that a vaccine could cause a reaction.

I have also found, that vaccine companies are not required to make the information public to anyone except people working in the veterinary field....why would that be?

And why would *I* vaccinate for Rabies, when my pet dogs never leave my province and we haven't had a reported case of Rabies as far back as I can search *1998*...

What I said to the OP was that she should check *HER* area and decide based on that.

I do not have to vaccinate him ever again, because of the severity of his reaction, he will be rabies exempt from now on.

And its funny you should say its foolish - you weren't standing there as my dog puked up liters of blood that was pooling in his stomach as he hemorraged internally, you weren't there as he lay on the table with his pupils blown and unresponsive while the vet put needle after needle into him just to get him to come around.

YOU weren't there when she told me that if I had been 20 minutes later to get him to the clinic, he would have died.

I never said to the OP NOT to vaccinate, I told her what I do, and why I do it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

readaboutdogs said:


> Our dogs get the DHPP yearly and the rabies every 3 years now that they changed that. What do you think about the kennel cough vac? They said now they allow once a year instead of within every 6 months. We usually only get when we're going to board them, which we are pretty soon. Clipper will be 12 years old the 18th of this month, kind of wondered about another vac. He had his DHPP in July. The kennel requires it.


First, at 12 years old, there is no reason at all to vaccinate for DHPP since he's been getting it yearly. My vet does not vaccinate senior dogs because after getting yearly shots year after year after year, their immunity is very high. Jax only had her puppy and 1 yr. I did titers at the age of 4 1/2y and hers were so high she will never need another one.

As far as KC. It's a useless vaccine but the boarding facilities still require it. There are many strains of KC, it lowers the immunity and can actually cause KC. My vet will not give it for boarding unless its more than 2 weeks before they board. To high of risk to the dog and to the surrounding dogs.



llombardo said:


> Do they offer a 3 year distemper by you?


My understanding, from the discussion I had with my vet, is there is no such thing as a "3 year distemper". The only difference between any company saying they have a 3 yr is that they actually did testing. I know there was an article I read on that too. Maybe if you did a google search you could find it? It was an interesting read.


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Kyleigh said:


> I didn't say NEVER vaccinate the dog .. I said I wouldn't vaccinate WITHOUT titering first.


Titering or not, I can't imagine skipping a vaccination, especially for distemper. Rabies is one thing as it's pretty rare in most areas, but distemper outbreaks are common in many areas. 

I would rather deal with the very unlikely possibility of a severe allergic reaction than knowing I skipped a vaccination and as a result my dog got distemper and died. I would never forgive myself. 

Sometimes I think we go overboard with the paranoia.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

shaner said:


> Titering or not, I can't imagine skipping a vaccination, especially for distemper. Rabies is one thing as it's pretty rare in most areas, but distemper outbreaks are common in many areas.
> 
> I would rather deal with the very unlikely possibility of a severe allergic reaction than knowing I skipped a vaccination and as a result my dog got distemper and died. I would never forgive myself.
> 
> *Sometimes I think we go overboard with the paranoia.*


:thumbup:
I can tell you from vaccinating some 150 dogs per year (which isn't much compared to a vet clinic, but a lot compared to a regular joe owner with one or two dogs) we have had 2 vaccine reactions over the past 12 yrs., and both consisted of hives/swelling of the face. Benadryl solved both issues quickly.
The worst reactions, from what I've heard and studied, are reactions to the Lepto vaccine, and it's allergic in nature.

DHPP rarely has any side effects. Dogs don't even feel ill afterward, or if so they certainly don't show it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Third time is the charm:

Having been a convert from a die-hard advocate of annual vaccines to once their puppy shots and one rabies booster is done, they are done. I want to weigh in on this.
The late Barker Sisters were 1 and 4 when I showed my vet the CSU Vet School protocols and said I was no longer vaccinating. After traveling extensively with me, visiting dog shows, walking in neighborhoods, stopping at poop filled rest stops, I did do titers at about 12 & 9 yo. Their titers showed excellent immunity.

So please explain to me why "NOT vaccinating for rabies is beyond foolish."

The frequency of your titers may depend upon the type of vaccine given (my current vet gives a different, milder vaccine to avoid reactions) but if a state requires a rabies vaccine a titer should cover you.

You DO want to have your dog protected from rabies because if they are bitten by a rabid animal and are not protected they will be euthanized.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You DO want to have your dog protected from rabies because if they are bitten by a rabid animal and are not protected they will be euthanized.


This exactly. Since rabies is so extremely deadly, the authorities will not take chances and it's curtains for the dog.
I don't even know if titers would be acceptable. Titers can be deceptive and I think health departments would err on the side of caution.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/CanineTiters.htm


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I use a minimal vaccine protocol:

Minimal Vaccine Protocol for Dogs - K9 Instinct - Dog Nutritionist and Dog Trainer in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada. K9 Instinct Blog!


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

I think that Rabies vaccine deaths are much more common than people think and are not being reported by vets. 

I just lost my Lab after a routine checkup, and he received his Rabies booster at that time. He vomited right after getting the shot, the vet kept him for 30 minutes for observation and sent us home. He was completely out of it, but the vet had warned us that the vaccine could make him lethargic and weak for a day or two and to just monitor his condition. 4 hours after receiving the vaccine my dog died the most violent death, seizing, choking, his heart stopped and I resuscitated him twice. He died on the way to the Emergency Vet clinic and there was nothing they could do for him.

The vaccine company paid for his necropsy, and they found out that he had an adrenal tumor, internal bleeding and a brain embolism. I'm sure they were happy to have a good diagnosis that made them look good. 

Even though my dog was sick, he was showing no symptoms at the time of our visit at all. We did extensive bloodwork because he was 10.5 to make sure he was fine, and everything came back normal. 

Now the vaccine maker is saying that the vaccine had nothing to do with his death, since he had cancer he would have died anyway. He certainly would have, but he was not sick enough to die when he did. Sudden internal hemorrhage and a brain embolism have nothing to do with the vaccine per manufacturer. His death did NOT count as a vaccine reaction. 

As someone who has lost a dog the way I did, which was absolutely traumatizing, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when I hear people say that somehow owners who question the safety of vaccines are foolish. Isn't it foolish to think that vaccines are safe when we don't know what they can cause in the long run? And when adverse reactions are not being reported as such? 

Yes, many dogs don't have immediate reactions, but as long as we don't know the long term effects, I reserve the right to be foolish and question everything that I'm not comfortable with when it comes to my dog's health. And to see people's concerns being laughed off is very distasteful.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Rabies is the one vaccine I will not mess around with. Rabies is a non-curable, absolutely horrific way to die and it's easy to transmit. Rabies terrifies me. Rabies is a vaccine I give happily.


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Wild Wolf said:


> Rabies is the one vaccine I will not mess around with. Rabies is a non-curable, absolutely horrific way to die and it's easy to transmit. Rabies terrifies me. Rabies is a vaccine I give happily.


I personally think that same way about distemper. It's almost as deadly but much more common


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We routinely ask for rabies to be given when the dog is altered. If a dog was going to have an issue, you'd think it'd be during the spay/neuter + rabies vaccine but none ever have :shrug:
I think once, a dog's shoulder swelled up and we weren't sure if it was the rabies vaccine or one of the other injections she got, like pre-anesthetic or a pain injection.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

shaner said:


> I would rather deal with the very unlikely possibility of a severe allergic reaction ...


But it's more than just a reaction (severe or otherwise).

Years back when I was fostering for a city shelter I used to vax my gang with DHLPP twice a year. I did it on the advice of the shelter vet - since I had the potential to be exposing my dogs to all sorts of things.

What did I end up giving them?

My girl Tessa got Immune Mediated Polyarthropothy. Her over-stimulated (gee, I wonder why) immune system was destroying the fluid in her joints. She was put on high doses of steroids to suppress her immune system. I was able to get her off those by switching to raw but they had already done their damage. Her stomach and intestine disintegrated when she was only 9 years old.

My boy Riggs was put down because of Rectal Cancer at only 11 years of age (he was perfectly healthy other than that).

Do you know that vets changed the location of where they give vaccines in cats because of the high incidence of cancer at the location site? Now they give them in the leg so if the cat DOES get cancer they can amputate the leg to save them.


As for the Distemper vaccine:



> Neurologic symptoms are the most common vaccine reaction seen in dogs. Canine distemper vaccination is the most common cause of neurologic disease, and can cause an inflammation of the brain.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Wanted to post the studies behind the location change for cat vaccinations:

Research Updates: Investigating the impact of vaccine administration site changes in cats - Veterinary Medicine


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> But it's more than just a reaction (severe or otherwise).
> 
> Years back when I was fostering for a city shelter I used to vax my gang with DHLPP twice a year. I did it on the advice of the shelter vet - since I had the potential to be exposing my dogs to all sorts of things.
> 
> ...


But that's pretty misleading just to say the distemper vaccine can cause neurological symptoms. What can distemper cause? Perhaps it's wise to compare the two, and not just that, but it's also wise to compare the rates of the two. What is the likelihood of a vaccine causing severe and/or permanent reactions? What is the likelihood of a non-vaccinated dog getting distemper? 

You need to look at all the data and make an educated and informed decision. Looking at one side is meaningless


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When looking at the data there is plenty of data to say that vaccines are good for AT LEAST 7 years, probably lifetime. 

When did you get your last polio vaccine? Measles? Mumps? etc.
We get tetanus every so many years but that is from a bacteria

It is hard to sort out all the variables but why did my dogs (why, by the way were fed awful cheap dog food) used to live regularly to 14-15 now be lucky if they live to 10 or 11 before they die from cancer. I remember back then nobody took the dog to the vet regularly - oh we got the spay/neuter and the rabies shots but even then you could buy your own rabies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We just got a Tdap due to lapses in vaccines and the fact viruses mutate constantly.
Pertussis is on the rampage.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Shaner, you said:



> Titering or not, I can't imagine skipping a vaccination, especially for distemper.


If titering shows that your dog HAS the immunities for Distemper, and doing the vax again can cause serious problems for the dog, why would you give another dose of the vaccine??

I'm not saying "Don't ever vaccinate". What I'm saying is *know ALL the RISKS and options* and make an educated (not emotional) decision.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Msvette - - - Yes, I got a first Tdap, it was my very first pertussis vaccine since 1957 - before that it was Tetanus every decade or so. Getting just a plain tetanus vaccine was not an option.


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## shaner (Oct 17, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Shaner, you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But I have yet to be convinced that titering by itself is reliable enough to rely on by itself. Many things I've read say that titers aren't completely reliable and there's differing opinions by experts on how much immunity is required. 

I've done my research and I will personally vaccinate for rabies and distemper every 3 years. I don't feel comfortable doing anything less than that. It's a risk reward situation for me and my dogs, and I feel that this is the best way to care for my dogs. A lot of the anti-vaccine information out there is purely anecdotal and not research based. You really do have to be careful when relying strictly on anecdotal information.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Heck - they even titer PEOPLE now. Since I work in a hospital environment I have to be covered for Measles. They did just jab me with a vax - they tested me to see if I needed it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Heck - they even titer PEOPLE now. Since I work in a hospital environment I have to be covered for Measles. They did just jab me with a vax - they tested me to see if I needed it.


I had to DEMAND a titer when I went back to grad school because they wanted to force me to take the measles vaccine even though I HAD measles, mumps, AND rubella as a child! Even then, they were saying immunizing someone for measles who already had measles in the past could cause problems.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Texas is a yearly rabies vaccine state, as is my county. Considering that my dogs don't stay home, 24/7, I will be forced to give that vaccine at the least. And yes, we see cases in Texas of rabies every year, some years being worse than others.

As to the other vaccinations, I've never heard of having titers done until I started researching (and reading about it on the boards). I'll ask my vet about that and see if that's something they perform (they're a little ... old school). Otherwise, I may have to find a more progressive clinic to go to, but I don't want to as I like the two vets there and they are quite empathetic with the animals. The older vet is a bit less so with cats, though. The younger vet is good with both and both seem to realize that pets are valued family members, without being pushy about treatments. They give you options and also don't try to make you feel bad if you want to try something conservative (and less costly) first.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Msvette - - - Yes, I got a first Tdap, it was my very first pertussis vaccine since 1957 - before that it was Tetanus every decade or so. Getting just a plain tetanus vaccine was not an option.


Yeah my son had a hammer fall on his head (long story) from about 7' off the ground, he had some nice stitches and a mild concussion. Then they gave him the vaccine and his arm hurt too!


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