# Lost my intended foundation bitch to hip dysplasia



## marbury

I have a 2.5 y/o bitch that I raised as the foundation for my lines. I showed her through her grand champion, spent countless hours on conditioning, play, training, showing, and exercise... hundreds of dollars on grooming, a thousand on showing, probably tens of thousands in upkeep costs for the past few years.
I fell in love with everything about her the moment she put her head on my knee and I watched her grow up from day three.
At two years we did our OFAs and passed elbows but failed hips. I was devastated. Her breeder encouraged me to try again when she was further out of heat and use a digital x-ray, so I did. While I had my other dog in for an orthopedic consult with Dr. Milton in Birmingham today I had her done, although I was sure I knew what we would find. Failed again. Severely dysplastic at 2.5 years. I raised her exactly as I was told. No running on pavement, no jumping on or off the couch or bed, no jogging/biking for long distances till she was 14 months old. Appropriate calcium and vitamins and protein.
On Wednesday she will be spayed. On Wednesday I call UKC and have her switched to Altered. On Wednesday all my hopes and dreams and hard work and love are worth nothing, and I have to start again.

The stud dog I was given by the same breeder has a 'rare' type of pano that has persisted in a single joint for 7 months, one excellent hip, and one fair to poor hip. He's 10 months old. I'm furious with my breeder, so hurt by this breed and all its health problems.

I wanted to be a breeder to improve the breed. At this moment I feel like there is no way to do so. I have one out of four dogs that is even a candidate, and she's too young to OFA. I detest the breeder that sold me these dogs and I detest the fact that I trusted her instead of doing deeper digging. I'm disgusted that I returned to her for another dog and that she was the mentor I chose. She bred a bitch that she KNEW failed OFA and lied to me about it (the dam of this bitch). She bred an underage stud before testing because 'both parents were excellent' (sire to my male with pano) who turned out to be severe dysplastic when tested. So did his littermate, who was neutered.

I have a contract on the bitch but the dog was free without contract because she wanted to keep the line but not the dog. I do NOT want another dog from her as replacement as listed in the contract, but I doubt I'll get my money back.

Right now I'm ready to give up on German Shepherds. If my third bitch (totally different lines, totally different breeder) has bad hips I don't know what I'll do.

I'm still trying to decide what to do with these animals. The bitch was my first and I am not willing to give her up. The dog may squeak by OFA at 2 years but would I feel right breeding him? No. He's gorgeous, he'll have a fantastic show career once the pano resolves. But what for? I can't use him as a stud, not without a guilty conscience. I know what it feels like as a puppy buyer, I refuse to do that to mine. The other bitch might well be fine. I'll take her into work tomorrow and do a prelim x-ray. If she's already showing signs, she's going straight back to her breeder too.

I'm crushed. I'm upset. I'm not thinking rationally. But Black Russian Terriers or Beaucerons are looking mighty good right now. I don't think I can take much more bad news about my dogs at the moment.


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## Merciel

I'm so sorry to read this. I can only imagine the disappointment and betrayal you must be feeling.

I don't have any advice or constructive suggestions to offer. I don't know the first thing about breeding. But you have great sympathies from this stranger on the Internet, at least. :/


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## keiko

1) Get a long, good night's sleep.

2) Don't give up on your darlings, despite their ailments. You didn't once mention their personalities. I'll tell ya my girl has personality. That's her most valuable asset. She also just happens to come from a champion, even BIS but that's only secondary, far down in importance.

3) Your breeder was responsible. Allow her to correct it for you. Seems to me she was willing to replace your dogs. Most people want to do the right thing if you allow them. I wouldn't spend another penny though.

4) Get GSDs or any dog for that matter because you enjoy them by themselves, not because of show accomplishments. In the end, it's just a piece of paper that reflects on the dog, NOT the dog is reflected by that piece of paper.


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## JakodaCD OA

Sorry your having all these issues with the dogs, I'm sure it's devastating.

I have had gsd's my entire life, over 50 years, never had bad hips or elbows.

If I ever have that misfortune, I wouldn't blame it on the breeder unless they knowingly sold you a dog with bad hips without disclosure. No one can predict the outcome of a puppy / health wise.

They are living beings, it's not their fault either


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## marbury

keiko said:


> 1) Get a long, good night's sleep.
> 
> 2) Don't give up on your darlings, despite their ailments. You didn't once mention their personalities. I'll tell ya my girl has personality. That's her most valuable asset. She also just happens to come from a champion, even BIS but that's only secondary, far down in importance.
> 
> 3) Your breeder was responsible. Allow her to correct it for you. Seems to me she was willing to replace your dogs. Most people want to do the right thing if you allow them. I wouldn't spend another penny though.
> 
> 4) Get GSDs or any dog for that matter because you enjoy them by themselves, not because of show accomplishments. In the end, it's just a piece of paper that reflects on the dog, NOT the dog is reflected by that piece of paper.


1) Agreed!

2) My problem is that they all have fantastic personalities. They're my children. How breeders can let go of their kids at 2 years is the mystery to me. If they didn't, they'd quickly have more 'pet' dogs than anything else and I know that... My inclination is to keep them all because I'm so attached. Trust me, I'm fighting hard here. Trying to make a 'responsible' decision and the 'emotional' one I want to make.

3) She is and isn't. She's handling this situation well, but the choices she made with her breeding were irresponsible in my eyes because she advertises as a breeder who health tests every animal and only breeds her dogs that have successfully passed all tests. She repeatedly lied and withheld information about the breedings. She just had another bitch whelp unexpectedly and she does not know who the sire was because the bitch was allowed to play with two males. That isn't responsible to me. She gave me the male way before this all went down because she wanted to keep her lines but didn't want to deal with another stud dog, which I understand. Our agreement on him was verbal. I own him but she has breeding rights in addition to me. All costs fall to me. 

4) Again, totally right. Remember, I'm only typing out the relevant parts of why I'm in the predicament I'm in here. I didn't mention that my kids are excellent lurecoursing dogs, or do super well in rally, flyball, and dock diving. I didn't mention that the bitch in question has such a perfect personality that I've converted non-dog people to dog people with her. I can trust her off-leash anywhere, she has an infallible recall, and her attentiveness to me is unmatched. However. Just because she is all those things does NOT mean I should breed her. That's how irresponsible breeding happens. "I have such a perfect dog, I want to have puppies!" How often do we have threads like that here? What do we always say to those people?
Paper isn't everything, but it MATTERS. Registries matter, bloodlines matter, performance matters. That's the point of improving the breed.

I LOVE the GSD, but it's a painful breed for me right now. There are other breeds that have similar qualities. I'll always have a GSD in my life, I know that. It's unavoidable, they're too awesome. But I have a passion for showing, training, and breeding that I've been nurturing since I was a child. It will not go away. And if I don't believe that I can help the German Shepherd Dog become better I will not encourage it to become worse by breeding dogs I don't back 100% and who are proven by judges in many different venues.
Case in point: the sire of my dog and his littermates were out of 'excellent' rated parents. What happened? We don't know... maybe one generation back, maybe five. Maybe it was lurking even farther back. That's terrifying! Right now I feel like I won't ever be able to trust that what I'm breeding doesn't have the same quirk.


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## keiko

marbury said:


> 1) Agreed!
> 
> 2) My problem is that they all have fantastic personalities. They're my children. How breeders can let go of their kids at 2 years is the mystery to me. If they didn't, they'd quickly have more 'pet' dogs than anything else and I know that... My inclination is to keep them all because I'm so attached. Trust me, I'm fighting hard here. Trying to make a 'responsible' decision and the 'emotional' one I want to make.
> 
> 3) She is and isn't. She's handling this situation well, but the choices she made with her breeding were irresponsible in my eyes because she advertises as a breeder who health tests every animal and only breeds her dogs that have successfully passed all tests. She repeatedly lied and withheld information about the breedings. She just had another bitch whelp unexpectedly and she does not know who the sire was because the bitch was allowed to play with two males. That isn't responsible to me. She gave me the male way before this all went down because she wanted to keep her lines but didn't want to deal with another stud dog, which I understand. Our agreement on him was verbal. I own him but she has breeding rights in addition to me. All costs fall to me.
> 
> 4) Again, totally right. Remember, I'm only typing out the relevant parts of why I'm in the predicament I'm in here. I didn't mention that my kids are excellent lurecoursing dogs, or do super well in rally, flyball, and dock diving. I didn't mention that the bitch in question has such a perfect personality that I've converted non-dog people to dog people with her. I can trust her off-leash anywhere, she has an infallible recall, and her attentiveness to me is unmatched. However. Just because she is all those things does NOT mean I should breed her. That's how irresponsible breeding happens. "I have such a perfect dog, I want to have puppies!" How often do we have threads like that here? What do we always say to those people?
> Paper isn't everything, but it MATTERS. Registries matter, bloodlines matter, performance matters. That's the point of improving the breed.
> 
> I LOVE the GSD, but it's a painful breed for me right now. There are other breeds that have similar qualities. I'll always have a GSD in my life, I know that. It's unavoidable, they're too awesome. But I have a passion for showing, training, and breeding that I've been nurturing since I was a child. It will not go away. And if I don't believe that I can help the German Shepherd Dog become better I will not encourage it to become worse by breeding dogs I don't back 100% and who are proven by judges in many different venues.
> Case in point: the sire of my dog and his littermates were out of 'excellent' rated parents. What happened? We don't know... maybe one generation back, maybe five. Maybe it was lurking even farther back. That's terrifying! Right now I feel like I won't ever be able to trust that what I'm breeding doesn't have the same quirk.


You're a great mom. You're responsible. They have tremendous personalities. They are great kids. They also have a couple of health problems.

Seems to me this is manageable.


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## wolfstraum

I'm so sorry for you and your dogs.....they don't know that they have failed and still will love you and deserve your continued love and concern...

NO ONE breeds to get HD on purpose....they may be kennel blind, they may be in denial at results...but they don't purposefully intentionally try for HD! You can be angry at them for their lack of objectivity, and I certainly would be...but I really don't think they intended this to happen. That anyone would deny an OFA rating and go ahead and breed is very irresponsible - but I have seen it happen and the owner rant and rave that the dog is fine and OFA is wrong (5 or 6 years ago, not a ASL breeder)

You need to back up and look at what is best for your dogs. I personally would "wash out" the male pup, and place him in a pet home where he will be neutered - why campaign him to a championship if his genetics are that poor for hips...do not give more credence to his bloodlines and kennel of origin. Spay your 2.5 year old, and enjoy her as you obviously love her. 

Get your other two pre-lim'ed.....start over with one of those if her hips are good and study the pedigrees on teh ones that are not good and try to avoid those families and combinations.

I know it is disappointing, but the dogs still need the attention and love they are accustomed to having.

Lee


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## marbury

wolfstraum said:


> I'm so sorry for you and your dogs.....they don't know that they have failed and still will love you and deserve your continued love and concern...
> 
> NO ONE breeds to get HD on purpose....they may be kennel blind, they may be in denial at results...but they don't purposefully intentionally try for HD! You can be angry at them for their lack of objectivity, and I certainly would be...but I really don't think they intended this to happen. That anyone would deny an OFA rating and go ahead and breed is very irresponsible - but I have seen it happen and the owner rant and rave that the dog is fine and OFA is wrong (5 or 6 years ago, not a ASL breeder)
> 
> You need to back up and look at what is best for your dogs. I personally would "wash out" the male pup, and place him in a pet home where he will be neutered - why campaign him to a championship if his genetics are that poor for hips...do not give more credence to his bloodlines and kennel of origin. Spay your 2.5 year old, and enjoy her as you obviously love her.
> 
> Get your other two pre-lim'ed.....start over with one of those if her hips are good and study the pedigrees on teh ones that are not good and try to avoid those families and combinations.
> 
> I know it is disappointing, but the dogs still need the attention and love they are accustomed to having.
> 
> Lee


Absolutely. You said it so well. Thank you for your kind words... I didn't know what I was looking for when I posted this, just that I needed to share. I felt like I couldn't share at my kennel club because my breeder is the president; I don't want to drag out my dirty laundry in front of everybody. But it does make it hard to find folks to talk to about this.

I do need to keep that in mind. She wasn't aiming to breed bad hips; it happens and she is just having difficulty taking responsibility for it. I know I should feel bad for her too; two of her three lines now produce HD. She must be struggling as well. I know I need to remember that.

Thank you.


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## carmspack

Do you want to look at the pedigree and see what the depth for good hips is.

If the other two are related to the ones who had such bad hip results , because what you are saying the stud and his littermate were both severely dysplastic, then do not breed them because the odds are stacked against you . 

terrible situation . prelims can be done as early as 9 months and used as a guideline , then you go back and get OFA .


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## marbury

Good news! I was so upset about the two shepherds I "lost" from my breeding program that I took my other bitch into work and snapped a quick x-ray, no sedation or anything. Had all the doctors at the practice take a look; they all rated her 'excellent'! PHEW! So grateful and relieved.

The bitch was spayed today, she's home and groggy. She did well in surgery and we took care of her umbilical hernia at the same time. The owner of the practice did the sx, and she said that my girl who it is near impossible to put weight on keeps all her fat INSIDE! It was actually quite interesting! She has a very fatty gut.

Anyway, just some 'good news'. Thanks for all y'all's support and help.


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## gagsd

Chris it sucks.... but Lee said it the best above. I have quite a few washouts lounging on the couches here. No ones "fault." They are what they are.
You are young and have plenty of time ahead of you. Train, compete, learn.... and cross your fingers.


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## gagsd

....and glad to hear "pano." Sounds like your visit to Milton was worth it.


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## marbury

gagsd said:


> ....and glad to hear "pano." Sounds like your visit to Milton was worth it.


It absolutely was... he was so fantastic! He was interested in the case, so I got everything for a ridiculously low price. We go back in 2 months for follow-up x-rays. I am recommending everyone I know to Milton now.


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## gagsd

What was the deal with the pano? What made it different?


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## wolfstraum

Is the female that x-rayed clean today related closely to the one that you spayed???

I don't know much about ASL lines.....but I would look for similarities and what to avoid closely...

Lee


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## robk

My breeder and I have spoke at length about what she looks for in breeding prospects. When she holds one back as a future breeding prospect she will prelim as early as 16 weeks to see what she is working with before she invests the next two years into developing the dog. It also helps her keep an eye on what her program is producing. She also strongly implores her puppy buyers to eventually have all hips Scored by OFA or PennHip and to keep her informed as to what they have.


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## Anubis_Star

Pennhip can be done at 16 weeks of age. And preliminary OFA can be done at a year. As well, the OFA database can be searched online. 

Its a hard lesson learned. Find a good breeder to mentor you. Dont take their word for it, see OFA results for yourself. Study the lines, contact other owners. Do preliminary hip tests so it's not a complete shock at 2 years of age. 

Live and learn. Sorry, but at least you are doing the right thing by not breeding now 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer

Are you giving your dog with pano Albon? You can knock out pano with albon. I heard this from a breeder friend, and was skeptical, but then I also was prescribed a pill-form of albon for a dog with pano. 

sorry you are having so much trouble with pups. Sometimes it is best to get an adult to start your program with. That way, you can assess adult temperament and have the major health concerns tested for prior to putting your money down.


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## marbury

wolfstraum said:


> Is the female that x-rayed clean today related closely to the one that you spayed???


There's one Tindrock bitch that is something like a second cousin about four generations back on both, but nothing else shallower.

I've decided to place the male in a pet home. He'll be going to a spectacular family that has two other dogs from this breeder, the male's sister and an older male that has already been neutered after HD diagnosis. They know whats going on with him and just want another pet GSD. I feel confident that he'll enjoy an excellent life on their 100+ acre farm... way more fun than he has here, haha!

I know I probably should have started with adults, but I stupidly let ONE bad experience prevent me from making that decision. The rescue I kept I got at 14 months and he is INSANE. All problems that could have been completely avoided with early socialization. I told myself that I wanted the control of development that comes with getting a puppy.
I didn't stop and think logically that there were plenty of adults who are just fine and not insane. After all, Red was from a puppy mill bust... any breeder I'm working with would not treat their animals the way he must have been treated.

I'm talking with a few folks about young adult dogs now. I'm bolstered by the fact that I have one dog with excellent (so far!) hips; I need to just find the right lines and right breeders to work with.


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## marbury

gagsd said:


> What was the deal with the pano? What made it different?


The reason Dr. Milton was so interested is because it's non-traveling. It appears to be limited to the right fore. The x-rays show that the left fore looks like it was affected at some point and has healed, but he never limped.
He also does not get fevers, is stoic enough that he does not appear to be painful (or he isn't painful), he has not had an appetite component or any other clinical signs. But the three week recurrence cycle and the x-rays all point to pano.

He gave us an up-to-two-year timeline on it. He says the worst case he's seen was in a male GSD who took three years to get over it, but it completely resolved. Fingers crossed... even though I'm placing this male I'll keep close tabs on him.

selzer, I never knew Albon was used to treat pano! I'll ask at the office and see what we can scrounge up. Thanks!


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## TrickyShepherd

I don't have any great input for this... but I wanted to stop in to say I'm so sorry to hear this. I'm in the same battle you are (just a few steps back). I have two dogs at home with a ton of medical issues. When I started with my 3rd dog's breeder as my training mentor.... I realized what the breed was supposed to be. I decided I wanted to strive to one day be a breeder and help get this breed back on track. I wanted to see MORE of those quality of dogs. Although I wasn't planning on this so early.... I ended up purchasing my first foundation bitch prospect last year. Like you, I spent a TON of money on this bitch in every way... training, health, exceptional upkeep care, equipment, etc. I couldn't hold on much longer, and took her to get her hips xrayed around her first birthday. They were just for my peace of mind until we can do OFA at 2, especially after watching both my other dogs get diagnosed with HD. I think I have a few grey hairs from all the waits. We're good now... but, that's to be determined at 2 with her OFA. It's still on my mind... "what if they are bad". Every GSD other then her that I've brought into my home or helped out with.... has at least HD. It's really stressful wondering what your next roll will conclude.

Anyway... I'm hoping for the best with your next prospect and all the luck in the world with getting your program started. Nothing worth while is easy. Trying to reach the status of a reputable breeder and being one, I'm learning fast, is certainly NOT easy. On the bank account AND the heart. Best of luck with your situation!


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## martemchik

The problem with buying a dog from someone without really getting to know them is that you really can't see if they're being truthful or not. Sure...they became your mentor, but the fact that you didn't know any better in the beginning is the reason why you thought they were a good breeder.

I belong to a GSD club. We have a lot of breeders that regularly go there (mostly ASL lines). After getting into the venues I have chosen, I would never take a dog from any of them. I've known them for 2+ years and I've seen plenty of their dogs come through the club as a lot of their puppies get sold to people either in the club or they convince their new puppy buyers to join the club for training. The issues I've seen are numerous, none super major IMO but not something I would want to deal with when it comes to temperament.

There was one breeder that I still do like, and I've liked some of their dogs, but recently they decided to change up their breeding goals and went more towards show than trial. They bred to an AKC champion...and 5 of the puppies (10 months old) are currently training at the club in various venues. One pup has EPI, another has weak pasterns (went to an agility home), another dog is missing some teeth, and if you lined up all the puppies...there is no way you'd think they were related. I don't know about hips...but at this point who knows what will show? These people have consistently bred pretty good dogs, and if I didn't know any better (or if I didn't know about their extended history), they'd definitely be someone I'd consider buying a puppy from. But the more you find out about people and their dogs...the more it makes you question what some of these "reputable breeders" decide to do.

It sounds like you really dove in head first into breeding...you purchased a lot of young dogs and tried to see how they would develop. Not sure if its something I would've ever done (lack of space and also too much risk) but it sounds like you're getting a clearer picture of what you want to do with your breeding program. The only thing I would question is your quick thoughts of switching to a different breed...I'm sorry, but how much knowledge of pedigrees do you have that you're so easily willing to think about breeding a different breed? I'm not questioning your abilities, but its very rare to find people that are extremely knowledgeable in more than one breed.


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## FlyAway

I'm so sorry about your girl, but I hear you have some good news. 

I know it's easy enough to believe the breeder. I bought a dog that was supposed to be Hips A according to the website, but OFA'd at Mildly Displastic. At least for American dogs, anybody can check the OFFA website for the results.


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## Liesje

Sorry to read this, you did everything right by your dogs and breeding. I've had some discouraging breeding experiences myself lately so I went out and adopted a 1 year old spayed free mixed breed female dog to have fun with. She's on my lap as I'm typing this. I'm not ready to give up on the breed yet, but I need a breather! I'm sorry, I have no specific advice other than to say, I can understand the disappointment and frustration (and those are major understatements!!).


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## marbury

martemchik said:


> The only thing I would question is your quick thoughts of switching to a different breed...I'm sorry, but how much knowledge of pedigrees do you have that you're so easily willing to think about breeding a different breed? I'm not questioning your abilities, but its very rare to find people that are extremely knowledgeable in more than one breed.


Oh, I have NO pedigree knowledge of any other breed, I assure you! That wasn't serious, it was one of those "end of the rope" moments where I felt like I was never going to get any good news about my dogs.

Don't worry! It was just one of those times that your therapist would say "ok, breathe and wait a week".


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## lhczth

I have never met a breeder, myself included, that didn't have disappointments and hit road blocks along the way. We stick to it because we love this breed. 

I bought my first GSD in 1985 with thoughts of breeding. Several dogs later I got what would be my foundation bitch in 2000 and had my first litter in 2003. I always started with puppies and tended to keep the dogs I had even when they didn't work out which limited how often I could buy my next prospect. I have never considered another breed even when things went wrong.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Marbury - I wanted to say I hope you stick it out. The breed NEEDS breeders like you - who have convictions and are not afraid to stand by them.


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## Mrs.K

I am sorry to hear about the roadblocks but I want to applaud you for being rational, honest and having the dogs best interest at heart without being overly emotional about it. That is a good start for breeding. Having a good head on your shoulder is important.


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## arycrest

I'M *NOT* A BREEDER, JUST A PET OWNER so take this suggestion for what it's worth ...

... Since you've had bad luck with raising puppies, spending lots of time and money only to find out they have health issues, have you thought of purchasing an adult that has passed the health tests which you find important and using her as your foundation bitch? As I say this is just a suggestion.


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## martemchik

arycrest said:


> I'M *NOT* A BREEDER, JUST A PET OWNER so take this suggestion for what it's worth ...
> 
> ... Since you've had bad luck with raising puppies, spending lots of time and money only to find out they have health issues, have you thought of purchasing an adult that has passed the health tests which you find important and using her as your foundation bitch? As I say this is just a suggestion.


This is difficult because good bitches cost a lot of money. And if you find one that the breeder is selling, usually its because she didn't work out for one reason or another...brings up the problem of why breed something that someone else is trying to get rid of?

If it is a good bitch...you wonder why the breeder is selling her rather than just keeping her and breeding her to make pups. Many times these bitches get rehomed when they are too old to breed or have gone through enough pregnancies that any more would kind of be cruel.

A lot of the breeders I know co-owned a puppy from a proven breeder. Then when that pup grew up, proved herself in whatever venue, they bred her to a good male and that's where the co-owner possibly got their foundation bitch. Others...they just get lucky with a great puppy that's healthy and successful.


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## Andaka

> And if you find one that the breeder is selling, usually its because she didn't work out for one reason or another...brings up the problem of why breed something that someone else is trying to get rid of?
> 
> If it is a good bitch...you wonder why the breeder is selling her rather than just keeping her and breeding her to make pups.


Because often a breeder will keep more than one bitch puppy from a litter and raise them to 6 months of age or so. They will do prelim x-rays, and maybe show them a couple of times. They decide which one they will keep and possibly sell the other one. Nothing wrong with the other one, it's just that with all of the laws restricting the number of dogs you can own, many breeders are having to cut down on the number of dogs they can keep.


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## lhczth

Have done that myself a number of times, Daphne. It can be an excellent way to get a young female that is old enough to x-ray joints and at least show working/show potential. 

I got the impression, though, that the person you quoted was talking about older bitches, maybe bitches who have already whelped a litter or more, being sold.


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## marbury

I'm so glad I spayed this girl. I've been speaking to owners of other pups from that litter and problems ABOUND. I don't know if the breeder was aware or if the lines just clashed horribly or what, but man...

One puppy had pano for about a year and a half, which I'm not concerned about. He also has severe allergies. My girl also had allergies. Two other littermates mentioned that their dogs have flea allergies.
Two puppies have very weak pasterns that never corrected.
One puppy had such a severe autoimmune disorder that she has to be on a host of meds for life and they almost euthanized her. She also has a clotting issue.
Three puppies are now being OFA tested to see if the hip problem was litter-wide or not.
Two puppies are still hock-walkers at over 3 years of age.

And I've only talked to four families! Those are pretty bad odds. Definitely glad to shut the line down on my end. Unfortunately two were sold back to the breeder's mentor, with whom I have been unable to make contact. They were trying to retire last I heard, so hopefully they just went into a pet home.

I'll update as I learn more!


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## marbury

Related, this is exactly what I know I will do with any litters I may produce. Does it sound out of place to put in a contract that I'd like all my pups to be OFA evaluated at 2 years at MY cost? That way the buyer has no real financial loss and we both get the information. I'd just feel more comfortable that way, although certainly I'd hope that buyers would contact me if they ever had any potentially genetic issues to contend with. Expensive, yes... but at least for the first few generations from an outcross it makes sense to double check.
Most of the folks I've talked to haven't told the breeder. Don't know why... I guess they didn't think they needed to? Hmm. Personally, I'd like to know if I've produced something out of place, even if accidentally.


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## JakodaCD OA

It does not sound out of place to put that in your contract, and at 'your' expense? Kudos to you, I honestly don't know of any breeders that would 'pay' for the xrays, but may there may be some.

Hang in there, you are doing the right thing and I think will be a great breeder someday


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## martemchik

marbury said:


> Related, this is exactly what I know I will do with any litters I may produce. Does it sound out of place to put in a contract that I'd like all my pups to be OFA evaluated at 2 years at MY cost? That way the buyer has no real financial loss and we both get the information. I'd just feel more comfortable that way, although certainly I'd hope that buyers would contact me if they ever had any potentially genetic issues to contend with. Expensive, yes... but at least for the first few generations from an outcross it makes sense to double check.
> Most of the folks I've talked to haven't told the breeder. Don't know why... I guess they didn't think they needed to? Hmm. Personally, I'd like to know if I've produced something out of place, even if accidentally.


I don't know if you really want to be shelling out $200+ dollars a pup for OFA when they're of age though. It's kind of unnecessary IMO. Check the dogs you have, severe HD is likely to show up early and you'll probably hear complaints from your buyers if it does happen.

I also have to say that I went about an hour away in order to get my dog's hips checked because its the only clinic that does it without anesthesia, personally believe its not necessary to put my dog under an unnecessary amount of time for a check like that. Mine isn't a breeding dog, and I just wanted to do it for agility purposes, but if I was a pet owner, I'd really prefer not to take that risk just so that my breeder can get some information.

At the same time a lot of people prefer to live without knowing. If you know...you have to start doing something about it...if you don't know...you can live without worrying. So if they do get checked...and the dog is HD positive, what are you then going to do about it? Cover costs of supplements? Replace the dog? It sounds like you really care about the breed and the dogs you'll be breeding...but you might really be breaking the bank in order to make sure that dogs that are probably not going to pass on their genetics are healthy.


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## Liesje

marbury said:


> Related, this is exactly what I know I will do with any litters I may produce. Does it sound out of place to put in a contract that I'd like all my pups to be OFA evaluated at 2 years at MY cost? That way the buyer has no real financial loss and we both get the information. I'd just feel more comfortable that way, although certainly I'd hope that buyers would contact me if they ever had any potentially genetic issues to contend with. Expensive, yes... but at least for the first few generations from an outcross it makes sense to double check.
> Most of the folks I've talked to haven't told the breeder. Don't know why... I guess they didn't think they needed to? Hmm. Personally, I'd like to know if I've produced something out of place, even if accidentally.


Personally I won't buy a puppy that has a lot of stipulations in the contract, regardless of who pays for it. Also it would make me wonder why just hips? There are certain titles that would tell me more important things about a dog's temperament, which is actually more important to me than the hip score but why only concerned with the hips?

Why not offer a "rebate" instead? Like if they can show you OFA results between 2-3 years of age, you will give them $100 back? I know many breeders give rebates for earning titles and passing health milestones. I would personally never expect a breeder to pay for it though. If there are certain dogs you're interested in, you can make an agreement with those owners.


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## martemchik

lhczth said:


> Have done that myself a number of times, Daphne. It can be an excellent way to get a young female that is old enough to x-ray joints and at least show working/show potential.
> 
> I got the impression, though, that the person you quoted was talking about older bitches, maybe bitches who have already whelped a litter or more, being sold.


This is more of what I was talking about...a titled/finished/close to finished bitch is going to run a pretty penny. At the same time, IMO if I saw a bitch with 10+ points and 2 majors for sale I'd really question why the breeder wants to sell her.

I'm not super into the AKC show scene (yet) but from what I've heard the problem with getting the "2nd" puppy is that when they go up against each other in a show the 1st puppy (that the breeder kept) SHOULD be beating the sister. Since most puppies and most owners stay local...you're going to be showing against that bitch until she finishes...not really worth your money if you know that you'll be losing to the "better" dog every show.

Of all the breeders in my club...their foundation bitches usually have a different kennel name. When you see their championship picture...they're co-owned by the breeder and the "new" breeder.

And just like Lies I hate stipulations as well. They're inconvenient and many times unnecessary. Some people's time is worth much more than you can ever refund them and they just won't want to be wasting much time health testing their dog for everything under the sun. At the same time...the fact that you'd be showing that you're THAT worried about hips would make me think you're almost expecting something bad to happen rather than believing/trusting that you know what you're doing and are breeding for good hips.


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## Blanketback

Marbury, those do sound like pretty bad odds! But I'm not a breeder, so I have no idea. I will say that my puppy has allergies, although both parents don't. A brother on his sire's side does, so it's there. I know 3 people whose GSDs have EPI, coming from separate breeders too. Another local breeder has sketchy temperaments - although this I'm not sure of, since I'd have to raise one of her pups myself to confirm it. The hips are just a tiny piece of the information you'd need, IMO. But by staying in contact with all your buyers, you'd know if your breeding was successful health wise or not.


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## marbury

All good input. I agree, it does make me wary as well to have a billion stipulations in the contract. I know of quite a few GSD breeders who do rebates; Truehaus (if I remember correctly) pretty much pays you back the price of your puppy if you put a Schutzhund 3 on them, and smaller rebates if you reach other milestones. I think that's such a smart idea! It encourages folks to get active with their pets if they want, but doesn't force it on them.

Keep the good ideas coming! I'm loving the possibilities!


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## Guardyan

> I'm so glad I spayed this girl. I've been speaking to owners of other pups from that litter and problems ABOUND. I don't know if the breeder was aware or if the lines just clashed horribly or what, but man...
> 
> One puppy had pano for about a year and a half, which I'm not concerned about. He also has severe allergies. My girl also had allergies. Two other littermates mentioned that their dogs have flea allergies.
> Two puppies have very weak pasterns that never corrected.
> One puppy had such a severe autoimmune disorder that she has to be on a host of meds for life and they almost euthanized her. She also has a clotting issue.
> Three puppies are now being OFA tested to see if the hip problem was litter-wide or not.
> Two puppies are still hock-walkers at over 3 years of age.


Do you know the COI for this litter? Was there a lot of linebreeding or was the litter more of an outcross? Just curious . . .


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## marbury

Dam:
http://www.redrockgsd.com/AmberSunPed.pdf

Sire:
Johnny - Red Rock German Shepherds
(Pedigree is at the bottom, imbedded)


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## JakodaCD OA

I like the rebate idea as well.. My aussie breeder offered 'rebates', for different titles, etc..I'm sure it would work for xraying


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## Anubis_Star

Let me ask, why would you ever breed a dog if it had bad allergies?

Maybe its a petty thing to some, but allergies are so common in the breed. We see so many dogs that have to be on expensive medications like atopica because they itch so bad, for life. Doesnt seem right to me to continue to breed dogs with such blatant problems that are likely genetic. Panosteitis is also largely assumed genetic because it is so common in some breeds. Again, maybe you should be concerned if lines are producing dogs that have a crippling disease for over a year.

I dont mean to sound harsh. I think you have the best intentions and your breeding goal is in the right place. But to me it just sounds like your dogs already had obvious genetic issues that you were ignoring, while yet so focused on hips. Rare forms of pano and allergies? Not the best foundation to good healthy breeding lines.

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## ugavet2012

Anubis_Star said:


> Let me ask, why would you ever breed a dog if it had bad allergies?
> 
> Maybe its a petty thing to some, but allergies are so common in the breed. We see so many dogs that have to be on expensive medications like atopica because they itch so bad, for life. Doesnt seem right to me to continue to breed dogs with such blatant problems that are likely genetic. Panosteitis is also largely assumed genetic because it is so common in some breeds. Again, maybe you should be concerned if lines are producing dogs that have a crippling disease for over a year.
> 
> I dont mean to sound harsh. I think you have the best intentions and your breeding goal is in the right place. But to me it just sounds like your dogs already had obvious genetic issues that you were ignoring, wh
> ile yet so focused on hips. Rare forms of pano and allergies? Not the best foundation to good healthy breeding lines.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


THIS THIS THIS
No dog with allergies should ever be bred, one of the biggest pains for me as both an owner and vet is ALLERGIES.


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## ugavet2012

Most people are not aware that ear infections are also due to allergies 99% of the time, so that should be a no go for breeding too unless there is a specific other underlying cause that is confirmed.


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## wolfstraum

OK - lets throw out all the dogs who have produced, whose siblings/half siblings have or have produced, or whose 

1. Allergies
2. failed OFA/a stamp
3. dental fault
4. PF
5. Spinal issues
6 DM
7. ACL repair

Then
1. Lack of drive
2. Too much drive
3. Fear of noise
4. Dog aggression
5. Weak nerves
6. too sharp
7. Hectic
8. Fear Aggression
9. separation anxiety

What is left? 

The BYB with nothing ever tested anyway

Dogs who produced failings in some way can produce excellent as well...from one female for example 2 OFA Excellent, 11 OFA Good, 2 OFA Fair and 1 OFA Mild (some prelim, some at 2)....should that female not have been bred because 1 pup failed OFA? 2 pups with allergies out of 30?

You have to look at the big picture....a female whose whole litter/half siblings are rife with issues, or who has produced a large number of problems should be taken out of the gene pool.

Lee


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## selzer

Ok, I have a dog out there with some skin issue. Their owner feeds an allergy-type food, few ingredients, etc., and still has some minor issues with occasional hot spots. 

They claim he is the be most confident GSD they have ever had, that he is perfect for them. He is good with their friends and other dogs. I have brought my pups there to socialize them to him, overall he is a great dog. 

I have 3 other adults out of the same sire and dam. None of them suffer from allergies, and nor have I heard from ANY of the other owners of his litter mates, or the next litter out of the sire and dam that their dog is suffering from allergies. That is 10+7, 17 dogs and one has some allergies. 

The allergies are totally manageable. They love the dog. People stop them all over the place to comment on how beautiful he is. 

Personally, I think there are bigger fish to fry. At some point you have to look at the whole picture, and say, yes, the dog does have allergies, one out of 17. Maybe the other sixteen have managed to avoid barley or wheat or soy or chicken or whatever else may cause allergies. And maybe that is just the one thing that dog has that means he is a living, breathing creature. Perfect is in heaven. Some critters have allergies, so do some people. 

If people stopped breeding any dog that produced or was related to any dog with anything that might be considered genetic. Then the breed would be totally history in a generation or two. Gone. No more GSDs anywhere. It is true that that won't ever happen. Only conscientious people would stop breeding. And then you leave it all in the hands of the worse type of breeders. 

Breeders need to listen to the people who have their puppies and make decisions based on the information, but they should not completely throw out every animal over every last thing. Some things are very serious, some serious, some minor, and some not really a consideration. You really need to take the whole picture into consideration, not just one or two issues.


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## gagsd

Not directed toward the OP.....
But allergies can be a pretty darn big fish. _*If*_ there is reason to believe that a dog _*produces*_ allergies, then I would take that dog out of my breeding pool. 
My vet just emailed me about a 4 year old GSD the owners are choosing to euthanize due to ..... allergies.


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## selzer

gagsd said:


> Not directed toward the OP.....
> But allergies can be a pretty darn big fish. _*If*_ there is reason to believe that a dog _*produces*_ allergies, then I would take that dog out of my breeding pool.
> My vet just emailed me about a 4 year old GSD the owners are choosing to euthanize due to ..... allergies.


Could be that some minor skin issues were actually misdiagnosed demodex, and at this point, they are just feeding the few ingredient food because it is working for their dog. 

If the people were considering euthanizing their dog over allergies, it would probably be a different story, and it probably wouldn't be 1 in 17 if it was serious genetic allergy issues. 

Let's see, should we drop all the dogs out of the breeding pool that produced a dog that had cancer too. I mean cancer is a big deal too. 

Sometimes by the time you know a dog produces a problem the breeding stock is nearing retirement age anyway. I mean a dog is 4 that they are considering euthanizing for allergies. Let's guess that this pup was out of the bitch's second litter at age 3 or 4. The bitch is 7 or 8 now. Go ahead and drop her from your program at this point. Will you also drop every other dog she produced from your program? And how about the dog? Could it have been the sire that produced the allergies, and not the bitch?


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## wolfstraum

I have allergies too...not fun...but there are many many many worse things....if someone wants a perfect dog - they sell big life sized stuffed animals....allergies can be manage 99 times out of 100....

Oh - I forgot Pannus, Pano and 

that really bad one! Hemagiosarcoma...

My 12 year old black male had it, and that was the definitive reason to PTS - his mother, her mother, his littermate, his mothers half sibling, his half sibling - all PTS or died from this.....and probably quite a few more that I don't know about....and this female family and her direct offspring were extremely heavily bred and there are probably literally well over a hundred dogs in his IMMEDIATE family - all at risk from hemagio......BTW - I never used him for breeding.....many reasons....but not his temperament or work ethic or looks! Those were all reasons that I could have used him....

Lee


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## gagsd

selzer said:


> Sometimes by the time you know a dog produces a problem the breeding stock is nearing retirement age anyway. I mean a dog is 4 that they are considering euthanizing for allergies. Let's guess that this pup was out of the bitch's second litter at age 3 or 4. The bitch is 7 or 8 now. Go ahead and drop her from your program at this point. Will you also drop every other dog she produced from your program? And how about the dog? Could it have been the sire that produced the allergies, and not the bitch?


I tried to be clear in my post.... I am not talking about a dog that produced "a" puppy with allergies... but a dog (or bitch) that _*produces *_allergies. I have seen so very many dogs and their owners miserable for years upon years.... not to mention the cost.
Certainly other things may contribute.... over vaccinating, pesticides, etc. But IMO, for what that is worth, allergies can be a huge issue and should most definitely be taken into consideration with at least as much thought as hip production.

and I was told this particular dog I mentioned has been fighting allergies for years. Have no idea of the pedigree.


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## marbury

Ok, ok... back up. My girl had flea allergies while we were living in Savannah, GA. Never anywhere else. We've lived in North Carolina and now Columbus, GA with no issues whatsoever. Never on medication except the occasional Benadryl, never needed shots. The specialist believes that the fleas were just SO bad there that even with Comfortis/Trifexis for two weeks and Advantage for two weeks we never did control them. I just had a delicious dog to them.

Second, I did not contact any of the other puppy owners until AFTER I spayed my girl and thus did not know all the nastiness that I found out. I should have done it first; had I known all this stuff she wouldn't have made it this long still theoretically *in* my breeding program.

Remember, she's never been bred. She hasn't passed on anything. Her genetics end in my hands. The other puppies are another story. Who knows if the others have been bred? That was the responsibility of their breeder, who I believe we can all agree has made some bad choices with her dogs.

I have made a responsible decision. She is incapable of reproducing herself, and with all the knowledge I have of her and her littermates now I would never dream of allowing her to. I know now what I need to do for MYSELF as a breeder to be confident in what I produce. I'm learning, and I think it's fantastic that I'm doing so without producing any dogs in the process. I haven't created genetic mistakes and I haven't contributed to the glut of unhealthy specimens of the breed. That makes me a very conscientious one-day breeder, and I will defend that. One day, armed with knowledge, experience, and help from others I will make my dream a reality. Until that time I will continue to learn and better myself.


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## Anubis_Star

Im not talking about a dog that has a half sibling with allergies. This dog that the OP wanted to breed had allergies. The stud the OP wanted to use had a rare and long term form of pano. Realistically, even before OFA was done do dogs like that really sound like good foundation breeding stock.

I dont think many of you understand how bad allergies truly plague this breed. It's especially bad because of their thick coat that leads to dermatitis and skin infections. Almost every german Shepherd patient I see in clinic has allergies and hot spots. And yes it CAN be managed. But an owner shouldnt have to manage allergies because they shouldn't be there. and treatment is EXPENSIVE. Atopica isnt cheap. Benedryl may sedate or change temperament while under the drug.

An occasional dog with allergies is going to happen. But when you have a breed predisposed to allergies, and then you breed a dog with allergies, seems a little irresponsible IMHO. Especially when you breed her to a male that has a rare and severe form of a disease that can cause a major handicap in a young dog. Zeke had pano for a month when he was a pup. Not a year and a half long.

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## Anubis_Star

To the OP as I said before I think you are making great steps to become a great breeder. Im just hoping you will maybe take more things into consideration. You stated you weren't concerned about a dog having pano but maybe sometimes it should be a consideration in breeding stock. Again just my opinion.

I hope you dont give up on the breed. The bad breeders already outnumber the good ones far too much.

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## marbury

Anubis_Star said:


> Im not talking about a dog that has a half sibling with allergies. This dog that the OP wanted to breed had allergies. The stud the OP wanted to use had a rare and long term form of pano. Realistically, even before OFA was done do dogs like that really sound like good foundation breeding stock.


That's why these two animals have been culled from my stock. If we start with puppies, we have to wait to see what we get. If I knew at week 10 that the dog I've raised for potential stud was stuck in pano I would have said no and that was that. If I knew at six months that all these other pups in the bitch's litter were 'messed up' in one way or another I wouldn't have wasted years treating her as a would-be dam. I would (and do!) still love all my dogs, but I would love them as pets and not look at them as the future of something I'm passionate about.

So no. Like I said when I started this whole thread, they do NOT sound like good foundation stock. That's why I was upset. I got what I paid for when I gambled on a puppy. I rolled the dice and lost. ETA: Twice.


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## selzer

Marbury, dropping dogs from your breeding program is a part of breeding, especially when you start out with puppies. While you can notate physical health and temperament of a dog when you raise it from a pup, the chances of a pup complementing your bitch when the two are full grown, well, let's just say that the odds of that not happening are so much greater than the odds of that happening. 

But if you cannot deal with the fact that you sold someone a puppy with a serious issue, then maybe being a breeder isn't your thing. Good breeders do not want to produce dogs with issues, but that does not mean that they do not. You can test your dogs left and right and up and down, and may still come up with a litter with, say several puppies with a heart problem. Now, you may have already sold some of the pups on full-registration. 

You can call the other owners, and offer to pay for testing on their dogs. Now let's say they are both clear of the hypothetical problem. You can suggest to their owners to not use them for breeding. You can offer to replace them with pups out of different lines. You can offer to buy them back. But notice those words: suggest, and offer. You will have no control. If those people want to breed the pup you sold, you have suddenly contributed this problem to the gene-pool. And if you can't live with that, then breeding is really not your thing. 

You can look at your dogs critically. You can look for every reason to drop them from you program. You can test their body and their spirit. And when you find that perfect dog that passed all of it, you will find that one that will not be bred, or cannot be bred, or cannot produce, or produces some flaw or problem. Or you lose her in whelping -- 50,000 shepherd bitches whelped without issues, and yours is lost. 

Why is it like that? Why does the son of a world sieger fail to produce any progeny, with the best of food, and the best of care, and the best of everything, while the rangey, mangey border collie mix down the street can go over three fences and nail your bitch for one tie and it produces 12 puppies. Why is breeding like that? 

Who knows? Maybe God doesn't like us getting too full of ourselves. I don't know. But nature is not always kind. And some things look a lot better on paper than in the flesh. 

I am not saying that you shouldn't drop your bitch/dog out of your breeding program. I have half a dozen at home I dropped for this reason or that reason, and I am kicking myself now on some of them, but perhaps I would be kicking myself even more had I bred them. 

And after you have that beautiful litter of awesome puppies in every way, and someone will say to you, "$1500?, how come that much? The guy down the street is selling GSD puppies for $300." And you just sigh, and tell them to go down the street and buy one for $300. No one takes into account that you have dropped several dogs from your breeding program, dogs that must be fed and trained, and housed, and groomed, and loved. Some of them, you may not feel comfortable putting with another person, so they are forever taking one of your slots, slots that could be filled with a pup out of your breeding, possibly a pup to be used for breeding. 

I know it's not about the money. It shouldn't be about the money. It isn't about the money. But it sure is about the money from the buying end of it, and that is perfectly ok.


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## Capone22

gagsd said:


> Not directed toward the OP.....
> But allergies can be a pretty darn big fish. _*If*_ there is reason to believe that a dog _*produces*_ allergies, then I would take that dog out of my breeding pool.
> My vet just emailed me about a 4 year old GSD the owners are choosing to euthanize due to ..... allergies.


We euthanized our 3 year old dog due to allergies. Well mostly. They were getting worse every year. Caused infections all over his body. Became resilient to one of the antibiotics, sever allergic reactions to two others. Nothing as no longer working. This on top of severe hip dysphasia his quality of life greatly suffered. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I realize this is rare to have them this severe but I still wish breeders took allergies more serious. It's awful for the owners. 


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## ugavet2012

gagsd said:


> I tried to be clear in my post.... I am not talking about a dog that produced "a" puppy with allergies... but a dog (or bitch) that _*produces *_allergies. I have seen so very many dogs and their owners miserable for years upon years.... not to mention the cost.
> Certainly other things may contribute.... over vaccinating, pesticides, etc. But IMO, for what that is worth, allergies can be a huge issue and should most definitely be taken into consideration with at least as much thought as hip production.
> 
> and I was told this particular dog I mentioned has been fighting allergies for years. Have no idea of the pedigree.


This is what I'm saying. Someone else mentioned "allergies can be managed 99 times out of 100". HA tell that to my clients I see every. Single. Day. With some sort of manifestation of food allergy or atopy. Tell them that when they have spent 100s of dollars to only find out its a food allergy that can only be managed on special expensive prescription food or home cooked diet with some exotic protein and not one other thing can go in that dogs mouth, no treats, no marrow bones, etc. its not always the case (actually very rarely) that we find out what the allergy is to, to be able to feed different things after the intial trial. If my Doberman doesn't stay on one particular type and brand of food, his hair falls out all over. Can't add any supplements to it or same deal. He is a mild case compared to what I see. 
Tell the people who have dogs with severe atopy and have to take allergy injections for the rest of their life to only even begin to manage the symptoms and give them even partial relief because their allergy test came back with so many positives we couldn't design a very effective injection that its ok, it can be managed. Or maybe they can just be on $100+ worth of atopica every month, no big deal. 
I would never ever purchase a puppy from parents with even mild known allergies, except maybe to fleas since it definitely can easily be managed in most cases, that one I might consider. I have met a number of shepherds who have none of the problems someone listed above and stellar temperaments. People settling for less than great health are part of the reason we got here in the first place. It's one thing for 2 dogs to produce 1 or 2 pups out of many with a certain problem, it's a whole different game to be breeding these dogs knowing they have a big problem themselves that's likely to be genetic.


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## marbury

Selzer, I hear you loud and clear. There's a huge divide between what people WANT their breeder to be and what a breeder CAN be. There are no perfect dogs.

However, I have a 'good candidate' for breeding as well as my two no-no dogs. She has never had any health issues. I took that for granted; the only conformation-related complaint I have about her is weak ears, but I'm not about to drop a dog because of weak ears. They're well up, have stayed up, and I've seen it bred out before. She's run head-long into picnic tables and been fine. She's a natural at herding, lure coursing, and dock diving. She's polite with high drive and a good head on her shoulders.

This was my first time dealing with dropping a dog. It will get easier. Breeding IS for me. Breeding is what I've dreamed of since I was old enough to articulate my dreams. I don't regret posting this thread; we're all weak at some point and we all doubt when times are tough. I wanted to share my feelings and get some support, and I got it. Now my head is clear and I'm back in my game. I know what I'm looking for and I know where to ask for help when I can't find it.

Thanks for the pep-talk!


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## carmspack

I have refrained from commenting in this thread .

It is hard to make a statement in print that does not come off as being harsh. That is not my intention.

You (one) can not go out and buy dogs to set up shop to become a breeder. You (one) can not go out and buy a foundation bitch, and the purchase of a male for that purpose is a waste of time and money , and unnecessary and limiting. 

"Breeding is what I've dreamed of since I was old enough to articulate my dreams. " Be as passionate about the breed as you are of the enterprise of breeding.

Study those pedigrees inside out . If you are serious I have a collection of American lines , GSDCofA German Shepherd Dog Reviews going back to the 1970's that are available at no cost , outside of shipping expenses. This was from Linda Shaw's archives and the issues I am offering I already have and don't need doubles . Selected issues were sent out to another forum member , a young lady that asked to be mentored . Champed at the bit, was impulsive, got involved in a too good to be true scheme , saw the error of her ways, bought a dog on impulse, was shown the error of her ways and has not been seen nor heard from since.

So German Shepherd Dog Reviews are available. The shipping is not cheap .

You have to do your best in understanding the full pedigree. 
Then if you have a female and you do your best and wisest breeding . This is a test . You evaluate the results. Long term , not for the short time they are with you. Then you breed the adult female to another , and you see , if there is a consistent positive production of what you want to achieve . If this is a pattern only then can she be considered a foundation . Foundation does not mean your entry into breeding , it is the essence and quality that you want to keep and put a stamp on all your dogs . There would be a bit of her in all future breedings , coming either from sire or dam side. Many kennels don't even do this . Each and every breeding is a new concoction. 

look at some of the pedigrees of Covy Tucker Hill Covy Tucker Hill German Shepherd Breeders - Home 
You can see how Lakesides and CTH worked together to rule the Am show specialty ring for years .

- declaration -- these are not GSD to what I consider near to standard --- but they are the tops in that particular GSD culture


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## marbury

Thanks for chiming in, Carmen. I would like to state for the record that my male was not something I went out and looked for. I never intended to have a stud, as no foundation breeding program needs one (IMO). There are plenty of better males out there with established histories to aim for. He was given to me and I took the offer.

I'm not aiming for American Showline, that's just where I started. I was unsure about other lines because I'm not interested in dogs with no off-switch (of which there are examples in EVERY line, I know). I also love the conformation ring, in which I would not have a chance with some types of dogs. I usually show UKC and have no interest in the AKC hock-walkers that plague American Showline blood.

I understand everyone's skepticism here. How many schmucks have come on this board to say "I'M A BREEDER!" and get run off because they have no consideration for anything except "my dog's the best, I want to breed him"? It's rare that we have the opportunity to foster someone who will grow to become as successful as the 'greats' that have established themselves on this board. You guys are rulers here because you made a successful name for yourselves, but I guarantee all of you started somewhere. You all had early development in your breeding lives. I'm at that square right now.

I picked a horrible mentor. I thought she was amazing when I met her and for years afterwards, but she didn't 'believe' that three or five generations back made any difference to her dogs. She does not have what I now consider to be good breeding practices. I thought I was doing super well by mentoring for years and not just jumping in with putting Jane to Jack and getting puppies out.

I'm making an effort here to be completely open and not get defensive about my choices. I MADE MISTAKES. We ALL have. My desire to learn more and BE BETTER outweighs my desire to save face and point fingers. At least my mistakes didn't result in puppies.

What I'm doing right now is saying "please help me". My mentor is no longer of interest or value to me. I know more than enough about whelping, raising, training, placing, medical care... now I need to learn the real meat. I've graduated GSD High School and am ready to get my bachelors degree. If I pass that I'll aim for my masters; by PhD I hope to have a place in this breed as prominently as Carmen or Lee or Selzer. Maybe by then I'll be the one helping some kid who has his heart in the right place make his choices. Until then, I need help.

Carmen, I have access to a lot of the Reviews back for about four years. I'll work my way through those before finding a spare few hundred for shipping the whole lot! I need to learn more about other lines, as I'm not honestly interested in American Showline as an exclusive foundation. I feel so many of them have nerves issues as well as physical challenges that I'm uninterested in perpetuating.

Thank you again, y'all. It means a lot to be this candid about what I'm trying to do and getting responses from some of the folks I look up to here.


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## Merciel

I hesitated before even posting this because I'm not going to add anything substantive to the discussion, but: marbury, I just wanted to reiterate that I have a lot of respect for your candor and your determination to do better going forward. As an outsider, it's been illuminating to tag along and get to watch a little bit of your journey, and I wish you all the best.


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## carmspack

you have my respect as well .

just quickly as my "spare" time has run out till much later tonight --

in breeding BEGIN where you want to END UP with .

American Show lines are as distinct and separate as the German Show lines and separate from the sport and working lines .

Know what your ideal is.

Off switch -- means a BALANCED dog .


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## Andaka

What do you want to know?


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## marbury

Is it possible (or responsible) to want to _meld_ the lines to create an all-around dog? I've met quite a few GSDs with excellent conformation, working ability, and calm demanor so I know it can be done. Most of them I've met are 'mixed'; maybe a grandparent was a working german import, mom was an american showline, dad was a czech dog... is that too much to hope for? Obviously there'd be no consistency for a few generations after the outcross, but it seems like the hybrid vigor might come into play. Yes? No? Totally off-base?


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## martemchik

marbury said:


> Is it possible (or responsible) to want to _meld_ the lines to create an all-around dog? I've met quite a few GSDs with excellent conformation, working ability, and calm demanor so I know it can be done. Most of them I've met are 'mixed'; maybe a grandparent was a working german import, mom was an american showline, dad was a czech dog... is that too much to hope for? Obviously there'd be no consistency for a few generations after the outcross, but it seems like the hybrid vigor might come into play. Yes? No? Totally off-base?


IMO it's possible but sadly it won't make your competitive in any venue. Any type of German lines in your dog will probably (depending on how prevalent) make it pointless to show those dogs in the AKC ring. And if you're breeding anything but a black and red, SV shows aren't really for you. I usually hate making temperament assumptions with broad strokes but having a more American temperament will probably not do well in Schutzhund so the working/SchH homes will probably not want to deal with that type of puppy. There are people out there that want to make a statement and train a ASL to do Schutzhund, but the truth is that a dog with American lines will probably not be the next SchH world champion.

I also sometimes question how much the people that own mixed dogs know about their dog. Are they calling it Czech because it has a big head and is a sable? Or do they truly understand that the pedigree is Czech? A lot of those people just believe whatever the breeder tells them, and many breeders will say anything to sell a dog.

So although I believe its not bad to try and mix lines...you're cutting off the heart of the market on both sides. Those that want to show, know what will succeed and it won't be a mix. Those that want to trial, know they'll have better success with a "pure" WL and not want to take the risk of any SL blood. Those people are the ones that allow you to make a name for yourself, the ones that will advertise your dogs and hopefully have success with your dogs which leads more people to go to you. If you're just selling to pet homes and placing dogs into homes where they aren't on display...your name/kennel can only go so far IMO.


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## Liesje

I'm very new to breeding and recently bred my WGSL male to a WL (DDR) female. Now it didn't take but we're probably trying again since most of the puppies were spoken for and I wanted pick male for myself. Anyway, our goal was not to use a SL to improve conformation and WL to improve drive and working traits. I think that is kind of a trap when doing these more extreme outcrosses. Basically, both I and the owner of the female really like both of our dogs. If I could afford to clone my current dog, I would. We were both looking for a male/female that would *preserve* and compliment the traits we like in our dogs and perhaps bring a few things to the table of less importance (for example, while my male is not by any means overly fine I think the female would certainly maintain if not enhance bone, but this is not a major thing). If I felt my dog had a major flaw that needed improvement I wouldn't breed him, but that said no dog is perfect (you know this). I guess what I'm saying is, you still have to look at the pairings piece by piece and not just a simple formula of show for looks and working for temperament. What is that saying.....if you have poop in one hand and gold in the other and you rub them together, what do you get? But yes the reason why we wanted to do a major outcross/mix lines was to avoid even tighter linebreeding and backmassing with either dog's pedigree. The progeny could be bred back to working or show to compliment.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Those people are the ones that allow you to make a name for yourself, the ones that will advertise your dogs and hopefully have success with your dogs which leads more people to go to you. If you're just selling to pet homes and placing dogs into homes where they aren't on display...your name/kennel can only go so far IMO.


Please feel free to ignore this if it's likely to derail the discussion, but this is a point that I've been wondering about for a while. How common/widespread is this viewpoint? How important is it, from the breeder's perspective, to have your kennel name "out there" in competition venues? Is that something many breeders consider a serious concern?


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## Andaka

I was a breeder for a number of years (my health issues have put that on hold, at least for now), and people would come to me for obedience and agility dogs. I hoped for half of a litter to go to working homes, and the other half were pets. I never charged more for the performance dogs, and I didn't give any rebates. But times have changed. Many people don't believe that the ASL dogs can do any performance, so they look to other lines for their dogs. I have a 3/4 ASL, 1/4 DDR dog that I am doing obedience and agility with. I can't run, so I find friends that can run my dog. One of them is a 13 year old girl. He is a sound dog with moderate structure. He has points toward his championship, but we probably won't finish it.


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## carmspack

In some ways what has happened allows you to stop for a moment and think about what exactly you want to do.


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## GSDElsa

I think your tale is a perfect example of why people recommend to people who are interested in breeding to be in the breed for years before considering it. You should know the ropes way before getting a "foundation" dog to try and avoid things like this. Granted, any dog at any time can have HD no matter what the breeder, but you are implying there are a ton of other red flags that have come to light since this. If you had taken it a little slower you probably would have avoided finding this all out way before you ended up with 4 dogs.

Regarding the allergies thing...I think degree of allergies should be considered. Are we talking watery eyes in the spring or severe allergies? There is such a huge spectrum in dogs, just like there is in humans.


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## marbury

GSDElsa said:


> I think your tale is a perfect example of why people recommend to people who are interested in breeding to be in the breed for years before considering it. You should know the ropes way before getting a "foundation" dog to try and avoid things like this... If you had taken it a little slower you probably would have avoided finding this all out way before you ended up with 4 dogs.


I respect your opinion but disagree with it, mostly because y'all don't know my timeline.

I was interested in the breed at the age of five. I plotted and planned for a dog and it took until I was 10 for my parents to finally gave in. I saved and did a whole powerpoint presentation; I got my first dog, who was not permitted to be above 25 lbs. I got a 25 lb shepherd-looking mutt, of course. I did everything I could with that dog, got obedience titles and agility titles... and I wasn't even out of high school.

I started contacting breeders I was interested in when I was 17. I put my deposit down on my first GSD when I was 20, and I got my first GSD bitch when I was 21 after speaking with her breeder for OVER A YEAR about her dogs. I got my second GSD bitch when I was 23 and the stud fell into my lap when I was 23. I am now 24. That is NOT what I would consider 'moving too fast'. I'm sorry, I will defend this point.

I did not jump into the breed and immediately start collecting. I know plenty of folks who do. I am not one of them. My fourth dog was a failed foster. I used to foster dogs for a rescue in Chicago. When I moved down to GA a satellite foster contacted me after a puppy mill bust and I ended up with a teenage labradoodle with serious issues. I ended up keeping him because he could not be placed and I'm rather fond of the old boy.

So to sum up, this is a good opportunity for me to focus in on EXACTLY what my goals are instead of having a vague "I want to better the breed" take on it, yes. But I am in NO WAY guilty of 'rushing into things'. I will defend this, and I have the right to do so. Sorry, but you won't change my mind. If I'd had litters of puppies or ended up with six dogs in two years I'd absolutely immediately agree with you and surrender, but I did not. I have never bred my dogs and I am dealing responsibly with my choices.


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## carmspack

in some ways I do agree with GSDElsa . That is one of the reasons I wasn't quick to get in on this topic . You can not go out and set up shop and buy dogs to be foundation. 
That sort of goes with having a dog and when he has his last breath you say "now THAT was a good dog" . Foundation you will only know mid to later in the involvement with that dog . Not the beginning . Not for a person new to the breed andnot for the responsibility that you have to all the puppy buyers, if you are caring and ethical (which I do not question with you at all! ) . 

You need to be conversant in pedigrees. 

The idea of the big meld -- not a good idea -- because you the new breeder can not and does not know how to mix them if at all. It is almost like three or four separate breeds. 
I used to keep up with all the American lines . Heck I had ROM's and Champions and dogs used in the creation of Select Champions. I had all the Reviews. I went to all the shows . A few of us were instrumental in instituiting temperament tests at the Nationals. You think that went over easy or was well received? Yeah right. 

At that point I had to drop the study of the American lines because they were not going into the direction that I saw was right. Even the links that I provided earlier -- I had dogs from those kennels - a Don Quixote son , I handled them. They were good . But now ! they don't look like GSD , some don't even look like DOGS. 

You can't possibly master American lines, German show lines, Working lines, the high Sport lines, Czech lines . 

You have to in your mind exactly what the perfect dog is . Start with and where you want to end up because the challenge is maintaining good and bringing forth improvements . You can't re-invent the wheel and take generations to get there . Each generation has lives that deserve to be good in body and good in mind . Give them the best shot at a good healthy life , appreciated by someone . 

Any help or questions I'll be happy to find answers.


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## marbury

*sigh*

I'm not going to fight. If y'all think I'm just another stupid ingrate who has dreams bigger than his brain, fine. I'm really trying to stay as open as I can but it takes a lot to shelve your pride and just take it.

You've all been very helpful. Your kind words got me through my episode of feeling really crappy. Thank you very much!


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## carmspack

nobody said that ! sometimes dreams are removed from the reality of how something works though.


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## GSDElsa

OK, so you were "into" showing GSD's for about a year and half before you bought a dog as your foundation bitch. I do think that is an extremely tight timeline. At least IMO. And you have to agree to a point here considering how it's all materialized with the breeder. I'm not sure where you are getting that anyone is calling you a "stupid ingrate" (wow, overkill much?!)....I just think it takes years and years to get yourself established in a dog breed and find someone that can truly mentor you.

Sure, there are people that jump the gun faster than you. But there are also people that show or trial dogs for a good 10 years or more before they decide to delve into breeding. 

I do think a 4 year timeline for getting and showing 4 dogs is a LOT. I'm just saying all this so maybe you can take a breather, enjoy the dogs you have, get some more experience with the breed and the people you associate with, and take another look into breeding when the stars have aligned a little more. No matter how you justify it to an outsider (me) it seems like you really dove into the whole situation before you realized what you were getting into (especially because it seems like you were buying a foundation bitch from a line that you aren't even interested in??). That doesn't make you a "stupid ingrate" or bad person in any way. I think we've all been there at some point with some situation.


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## Andaka

Marbury, if there are any questions that you have about the present prevelent bloodlines, I would be happy to help you with learning them.


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## marbury

OK, check this out. I was just offered this bitch:

WindsongK9's - Liberty

The deal is co-own till first litter (bred, whelped, owned, sold by original breeder) then signed over in full to me. Sounds good, right?

No. Look at her pedigree. She's not for me. Too much Woodside (weak/down pasterns, wobbly hocks, weak ears, specialty crouch) and bad hips way back. Turned her down.

It's not my first time turning a bitch down. I just wanted you all to be proud of me. I do make *some* good choices.

Elsa, yes. It was overkill. When I'm hurt I retaliate. I know it's not what anyone is intending to do, but it felt in the moment like I was having salt rubbed in my wounds. My apologies, I've come to terms with everything but it still hurts.


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## selzer

Marbury, I think you make good decisions. I commend you for dropping your bitch from your breeding program. 

I think that breeding is something that you will learn as you go. Sorry all you other folks, but if people wait until they know the peds in and out and all the different lines and everything else a good breeder should be versed in, they will be too old to stay up all night kneeling beside the whelping box with their bitches. 

To make an impact, you have to start somewhere, and have generations of dogs in your lines. You have to experiment and cut this dog, and that dog from your program. Eventually, through continuous learning, hard decisions, studying all you can get your hands on, and experience you will start producing the dogs you are dreaming about. 

If you start at 25, at 45 you will have 20 years experience. If you start at 40, you will have only 5 years experience at 45. You cannot replace experience no matter how many pedigrees you study. Sometimes you have to DO. 

I am not suggesting that people ignore all the other stuff, but with a decent mentor, and a good bitch, there is no reason you cannot carefully begin the process while you learn.


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## Anubis_Star

Im sorry but I think that b*tch is hideous! Thank you for trying to better showlines, because I'm sick of seeing dogs with callused pasterns from all the hock banging they do when they walk.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer

Anubis_Star said:


> Im sorry but I think that b*tch is hideous! Thank you for trying to better showlines, because I'm sick of seeing dogs with callused pasterns from all the hock banging they do when they walk.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Anubis_Star, first of all we are a canine site, and we can spell out the word "bitch" here. Secondly, if you do insert characters to simulate swear words so that you can get your point across without having the words automatically censored, that is against the rules. 

But whatever.

That bitch belongs to someone. I don't think she is hideous. She is an American Showline bitch with winning American lines. The OP, has reservations of some of the names in her background, and we have to be very careful about breeder bashing here. 

But to say a dog is hideous, I think is just so unnecessary. She isn't your type, that's fine.


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## Anubis_Star

selzer said:


> Anubis_Star, first of all we are a canine site, and we can spell out the word "bitch" here. Secondly, if you do insert characters to simulate swear words so that you can get your point across without having the words automatically censored, that is against the rules.
> 
> But whatever.
> 
> That bitch belongs to someone. I don't think she is hideous. She is an American Showline bitch with winning American lines. The OP, has reservations of some of the names in her background, and we have to be very careful about breeder bashing here.
> 
> But to say a dog is hideous, I think is just so unnecessary. She isn't your type, that's fine.


I apologize, you are very correct. More typed out but again you are right, different types different opinions. Not the best choice of words and I hope I didnt offend anyone. As far as bitch, just an old habit from years before. As well my phone will often times autocorrect the word into ***** so it's also a habit to avoid that.

I think there are some very nice looking show lines just for the record and I've seen more than a few on this site. I am glad the OP wants to encompass a sound physical structure no matter the lines, as that should be the ultimate goal in any breeding program.

I think conformation weakness is obvious no matter the line as well. Just another statement agreeing with the op. I hate seeing show lines with hocks banging on the ground when they move as much as I hate seeing giant blocky dark WL being bred just to supply a new fad for big black and intimidating - if that statement offends someone maybe they should take a closer look at what they're breeding. I dont care winning lines or not 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## marbury

Yes!! Excellent point. No breeder bashing, that was totally not my intent. Sorry if I didn't make that clear; she's clearly a very successful dog. She's just not what I'm looking for. I know Woodside quite well, I've seen two dogs in person with characteristics I'm not a fan of. Woodside is very successful, however! And that's great for them.

My error, apologies.


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## carmspack

To make an impact, you have to start somewhere, and have generations of dogs in your lines. You have to experiment and cut this dog, and that dog from your program 

except that Marbury doesn't even know if they want American show lines . Don't know yet what they want . Can't put together an ASL with an WGSL with a WGWD with a Czech dog --- 

time for looking at the STANDARD for the breed Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs 

Movement of the Working Dog

the dog pictured in the web site (black dog sidegaiting)
has no period of suspension. not an efficient trot at all . 3 legs on the ground .


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## carmspack

here is an example of very nice structure VA Wanko von der Maaraue


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## wolfstraum

Carmen has put some very good thoughts down in this thread.....

I admire that you have the integrity to step back and shelve your current plans. I think you have the drive and tenacity to continue in the breed.

But I agree with Carmen in that your goals are not defined or thought out clearly enough to establish a foundation line. 

First off, even though UKC is popular, it is not mainstream. It is not going to gain you the respect of your peers in the ASL dogs. I am always tickled to death when any of mine do anything that involves winning or titles, and one of my J litter went BOB and 4th in Group a few weeks ago at a UKC show in Canada....owner is a handler for other breeds (schnauzers and poodles) and entered her for fun since she was handling a bunch of other dogs......so the dog will get a UKC Championship in the future as a goal....but her forte is agility, flyball and obedience. I'd prefer schutzhund...but am happy to have Jyce out there doing anything! 

I am a working line person through and through....I actually think UKC judging is probably better - but it does not carry the weight of an AKC title for show fans. 

You can choose one of three directions - ASL (AKC) - Euro show or Euro work.....mixing is pretty much verboten...it is done alot - but only a few succeed in going forward - and then it is because they reincorporate that cross back into their line of choice...a show breeder doing a work cross litter, then taking an individual from that and going back in their show line program or vice versa....done in hopes of bringing some characteristic back into their game plan....just crossing and crossing litter after litter with no goal or plan is just plain BY or commercial breeding done to sell puppies to John Q Public with marketing of "best of all worlds combined in one dog"....ain't gonna fly as a serious breeder!

No dog is perfect - not any dog of any type ......I HATE HATE HATE the phrase "to better the breed" because I think the breed goes deeper and deeper in the toilet with so many breedings done by people with no clear cut vision or goals other than selling puppies.....instead I would like to say that a serious breeder strives to produce a dog who fits the ideal of the standard both in ability and in appearance.....

You have to have a clear picture of the ideal dog....and work is just as important as appearance....I don't like ugly working dogs - and I don't like showlines who have no courage or drive - and I don't like dogs who are ugly, have no courage or drive and who have weak temperaments of any type! 

But I seriously think you need to explore the various venues, types and strengths and weaknesses of each subgroup before establishing a 'foundation'....you express an interest in working dogs - so go and meet some working dogs and clubs....go to some SV type shows...

Mixing the types to me is sort of like making chocolate bacon cupcakes - some things just do not go together.

Lee


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## carmspack

Thank you Lee Ms Wolfstraum.

In many ways the results of the hips are a blessing in disguise , for you . Consider this as the safety brakes which prevented an accident. Had this female been hip cleared you may have gone ahead and bred her , without enough knowledge in the lines to pick a good male , and even then , best intentions and all, the failings in her genotype could have all been invested in one litter.
These kinds of problems "I'm so glad I spayed this girl. I've been speaking to owners of other pups from that litter and problems ABOUND. I don't know if the breeder was aware or if the lines just clashed horribly or what, but man...

One puppy had pano for about a year and a half, which I'm not concerned about. He also has severe allergies. My girl also had allergies. Two other littermates mentioned that their dogs have flea allergies.
Two puppies have very weak pasterns that never corrected.
One puppy had such a severe autoimmune disorder that she has to be on a host of meds for life and they almost euthanized her. She also has a clotting issue.
Three puppies are now being OFA tested to see if the hip problem was litter-wide or not.
Two puppies are still hock-walkers at over 3 years of age."

When you choose something for breeding you have to look long and deep into the pedigree, especially sire and dam and their progeny - and near relatives , siblings, progeny.

"Most of the folks I've talked to haven't told the breeder. Don't know why... I guess they didn't think they needed to"

Oh they need to make a big noisy squawk about it. 

On this note about allergies "THIS THIS THIS
No dog with allergies should ever be bred, one of the biggest pains for me as both an owner and vet is ALLERGIES"
this is not a weasly mealy mouth reply - my dogs do not have allergies -- BUT in my experience fielding questions and concerns from ALL breeds and mix breeds I can say that many allergies are MADE not born - or born because of accumulative effects from wrong feeding and vaccine management - read Pottenger's Cats . Evidenced by the tidal wave of growing problems - read Dr Plechner's Pets at Risk which covers Cancer to Allergies having the same base - a hormonal and endocrine balance. How peculiar, don't you think that the animal world and humans are on the same catastrophic course? 
Food , proper minerals, no more synthetics lab made "vitamins" , controlled and common sense in vaccination .

I have seen too many complete turn arounds . For that reason I can't see it entirely based in genetics. For a breeding animal you do choose one that does well , is hardy and healthy to start so that the epi-genetics are good and proper.

Then I have to back track a bit - once again calling upon Dr Plechner who also wrote Pet Allergies - Remedies for an Epidemic . That pretty well describes it , an epidemic.
He speaks out against commercial food , improper breeding practices , with which I agree. So my above statement did not condone, never will condone breeding animals that do not merely hold their own, but must be examples of powerful robust health. 

Demodex tends to get out of control and become a problem when a dog's immune system has not fully developed and the dog has had marginal prenatal and post natal nutrition and the dog has been stressed by temperature swings , cold , hot , where the body's thermoregulation is not developed and the dog was sent along the conveyor belt of what needs to happen to it (him/her) along some time-line , and is by this over processed without regard to its abilities to handle things. Frankly I am shocked by the number of people on this forum that have clearly stressed, distressed, not well dogs being told it is time to have a "shot" because somewhere on a wall chart it says it is time. IF that vaccination is even of any use or wise to give.

And to add , anti biotics are not the answer and may create worse , chronic problems because the problem has not been addressed. The gut has been stripped of essential beneficial gut flora , immune system further depressed , and then the fact that there are anti biotic strains emerging - just bad all round . Lucrative because you have a chronic vicious circle , a customer for life.

If you continue to follow your dreams do not do this again "I fell in love with everything about her the moment she put her head on my knee and I watched her grow up from day three."

That is too young to choose a dog for anything , for showing, working, loving companion , and especially not for breeding. That was the first red flag at the mentor's quality .


" The bitch was spayed today, she's home and groggy. She did well in surgery and we took care of her umbilical hernia at the same time. The owner of the practice did the sx, and she said that my girl who it is near impossible to put weight on keeps all her fat INSIDE! It was actually quite interesting! She has a very fatty gut."

Do not go ahead and breed a dog that does not keep well , in horse terms is a good-doer. A dog that is near impossible to put weight on , condition on is not ideal.
An umbilical hernia ,? -- not ideal.
Not for a foundation .

You got all four dogs from one breeder ? " I have one out of four dogs that is even a candidate, and she's too young to OFA. I detest the breeder that sold me these dogs"

Don't do that again. Can't go out and buy "stock" as if setting up shop.

this "because 'both parents were excellent' " Excellent , what , where , hips? Unless it is a pronouncement from OFA I would not believe it , not from show lines m unless and until people come out of the wood work and show me otherwise.
You did the same thing "Good news! I was so upset about the two shepherds I "lost" from my breeding program that I took my other bitch into work and snapped a quick x-ray, no sedation or anything. Had all the doctors at the practice take a look; they all rated her 'excellent'! "

Vets more than likely meant excellent as a looks like you have no problem -- which could be anything . Also depends on how experienced or qualified your vet is to read x rays - outside of trauma .

If that female came from the same breeder , shares the same lines she is not a candidate as a foundation either. 
"I'm talking with a few folks about young adult dogs now. I'm bolstered by the fact that I have one dog with excellent (so far!) hips"

"She's run head-long into picnic tables and been fine" ??
"She's a natural at herding" well that's good , but there are light-years distance between a dog that gets a small sample of seasoned sheep where the dog shows some attraction (some I've seen were only harassing the sheep) and the proper BOUNDARY control of a GSD , which is not Border Collie style.


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## selzer

As for mixing it up, I think you should start within the line you like the best, learn the dogs, learn the lines, experiment, look within the lines for the traits you want, and become successful. 

Then, if you want to color outside of the lines. You will be in a better position to make those choices. 

Understand though, that the people who like ASL dogs, want nothing German in them. The people that like WGSL dogs and Working line dogs want nothing American in them. And the Working lines and WGSLs grow farther and farther apart whether that is a good thing or not. The show line people claim X about the working lines and do not want to inject X into their lines, and the Working line people claim Y about the the Showlines and want no part of Y. 

There are a couple of people out there that are successful with mixing the lines. I think that to do so successfully, you have to have a serious goal and a plan. Get the best dog you can from the lines that best matches your ideal, critically assess the dog to see what is lacking, and then find the best dog known for producing that characteristic, and at the same time be very attentive to whatever else he is known to produce, and don't expect much from the first generation. Breed back within your lines on the second generation, and keep an open mind. Be ready to scratch that and try again. 

It is science and it is art, this breeding. 

It can be art when you color outside the lines, but it also can be pre-school/kindergarten work. And all the paintings have to hang somewhere. 

I think in the old days when people really weren't appauled at the idea of culling -- I mean really culling a litter, it would be easier to do this successfully because pups that were seriously faulty in structure or temperament could be eliminated, and you would not need 12 pet homes for the results of your experiment. I am not saying it is a bad thing that we have progressed from there, but it is something we really have to consider when we choose to go beyond the various lines.


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## marbury

Carmen, thanks for breaking it down so it was easy to understand, but some of your assumptions are incorrect. I do thank you for the points you made that were accurate and instructive, however.

Demodex does not come into play in any of my dogs, I cannot stand it. Ugh!

I had two from one breeder and one from a completely different breeder and lines. I did not expect to get a second dog from the first breeder. I thought I'd said that clearly, but perhaps not. In case, let me say so again. I have three German Shepherds. My fourth dog is a labradoodle. He obviously did not come from the same breeder and he predated all my shepherds; thus, moot.

The vets who read my informal x-ray are MY vets; the ones I work for and with five to seven days a week, fifty two weeks a year. We discussed it thoroughly. They are not specialists, however, and I take it worth its salt.

I'm not interested in selling to the hock-walking ASL crowd and never have been. I don't ever see myself having a self-made AKC Grand Champion, nor do I want to. 

So we've established that that's my problem right there; I don't know what market I'm aiming for. Please, help me figure that out, there's the first step!

In my 'dream goal', I want my puppies to:
1) Go to families that will challenge and engage them
2) Try many new things and have fun doing it!
3) Turn heads and get comments like "now THATs a shepherd like I remember them"
4) Be trustworthy companions to children and family* and appropriately wary of those with whom they are not familiar
5) Provide minimal worry to their families in regards to possible health problems looming overhead

_*Obviously, not every puppy is suited for every home. I've placed many puppies through rescue work, don't worry... I would never presume that there's any chance of having a litter of entirely middle-of-the-road pups_

Those are lofty, too lofty for any 'real' breeding program. I know that. But it's the Ultimate Goal, which is a great place to start. Falling short of it still puts me somewhere in 'excellent attempt' territory. I don't want to place puppies that are working machines. I just want to produce stable, happy, balanced dogs that can adapt to any basic job. I'm frankly not interested in schutzund 3 or IPO or dogs that will rip the face off the neighbor with a single command. I like the romantic notion of a dog that shows courage and valor when necessary and full command of himself at all other times. My spayed bitch is this way, a quality that I admire highly.
These goals are in great part why I love sports like dock diving, lure coursing, flyball, treibball... they're great, they're fun, they are such fantastic ways to bond with your dog. And anyone can do it (if you have knee braces, of course!). I know a LOT of folks on here are part of the GSD culture of 'if it doesn't work, it IS NOT a German Shepherd'. I'm treading on quite a few toes, I'm sure. That's why I started with ASL. It didn't demand the extremes of temperament like it sure seems working lines do. Unfortunately, you get a lot of 'crap' that comes with it; health issues, horribly weak/nervy temperaments etc.
I'd love to get involved with some of the more GSD-centric sports, of course. I want to die saying I've tried it all! But I know that most families don't necessarily need a dog predisposed to curl a lip at a potentially suspicious passerby.

So I have no real 'target market' in a professional sense. UKC allows me to have my stock checked outside of 'barn blindness', meet folks in the dog world, learn new sports, and not be measured up against a breed standard with which I do not agree. Ideally I'd like to place my puppies in 'pet' homes that want to be something more. I love starter families; there's nothing quite like placing a dog that moves a person (or a whole family!) to really join the Dog World. I've seen it happen, and it happened to me. Getting kids in the ring or getting Mom or Dad to drive the van out to local rally events is so excellent. It's fun for the dog and it's fun for the family.
And of course, by 'pet' homes I don't mean that I'm aiming for a litter of pet quality puppies. I mean I want responsible placements for every gem I produce and I want to be a part of the family's lives for longer than their dog is with them. I want to be the breeder that they come back to and refer their friends to because their dog is just so easy, good, and intelligent. My spayed bitch was already potty trained when I brought her home. She had one or two accidents in her crate, all of them my fault. She just 'knew' what I wanted and could read me like a book; that's a feeling I've only EVER gotten from German Shepherds. I want to create lines that take the worry out of a German Shepherd. "Will it be crazy?" "Will it be too nervy?" "Will it be crippled by the age of four?" are all questions that, ideally, we should never have to worry about. It's like what the Guide Dog association is trying to do with labs and goldens; lines aimed at eliminating (as best as possible, of course) health issues and creating the ideal dog for work and companionship. Obviously the temperaments are COMPLETELY different and I would never, ever want to breed a golden brain into the beautiful shepherd, but for comparison sake lets just use that example.

Perhaps that makes my goal being a cutting edge Pet Provider. And I'm sure I'll be descended upon, which is fine. It will help me narrow my focus and make different choices. I'm as open to learning and changing as ever.

I bet at least one person will say "NO GSDS FOR YOU. GO GET A LAB." Which will never happen. Labs are my least-liked breed, followed closely by the Finnish Spitz, which should never have happened in the first place.


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## Xeph

> Understand though, that the people who like ASL dogs, want nothing German in them.


This is rapidly becoming less and less true


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## carmspack

> "Demodex does not come into play in any of my dogs, I cannot stand it. Ugh!"


comments about demodex were made in a portion where I was saying that not every allergy or demodex is genetic but may be due to feeding , over vaccinating , physiological stresses , an immune depression , when the immune system is not fully developed , after first vaccination, worming , stress of weaning etc. 
It was a general discussion further to and in support of Wolfstraum's "I have allergies too...not fun...but there are many many many worse things....if someone wants a perfect dog - they sell big life sized stuffed animals....allergies can be manage 99 times out of 100...."
and against this comment "On this note about allergies "THIS THIS THIS No dog with allergies should ever be bred" 

with reasons for my position. General discussion.



On the issue


> "I had two from one breeder and one from a completely different breeder and lines. I did not expect to get a second dog from the first breeder. I thought I'd said that clearly, but perhaps not. In case, let me say so again. I have three German Shepherds"


 Doesn't matter where you got them from . But you did say " I detest the breeder that sold me these dogs" singular , breeder. 

when you say the hips were "excellent" people tend to take that as an OFA grade - your vet should have said it looks like the hips are clear , will pass OFA . 

Breeding GSD should be for the love of the breed and doing right by it , not satisfying a MARKET "I don't know what market I'm aiming for" because a well bred , stable, healthy dog can go ANYWHERE . 



> " In my 'dream goal', I want my puppies to:
> 1) Go to families that will challenge and engage them
> 2) Try many new things and have fun doing it! "


Once again a well bred GSD can live the life of a family dog that will enrich the lives of the family .
Your dream goal has more to do with being selective and discriminating in finding homes than it does with the knowledge needed and selection process of breeding. The potential of a dog , a well bred GSD should be limitless , not middle of the road . Don't aim for middle of the road.



> "Those are lofty, too lofty for any 'real' breeding program. I know that. But it's the Ultimate Goal"


 ?? I hope not.


> " I'm frankly not interested in schutzund 3 or IPO or dogs that will rip the face off the neighbor with a single command. "


 --- should get acquainted with some good dogs and schutzhund -- so how are you going to make your MIX of ASL with some CZECH and some WGWL ? Not saying they are neighbour face removers - but they will have schutzhund and will have had bite work. 

I am sure that you will get response here



> "
> I'm treading on quite a few toes, I'm sure. That's why I started with ASL. It didn't demand the extremes of temperament like it sure seems working lines do. Unfortunately, you get a lot of 'crap' that comes with it; health issues, horribly weak/nervy temperaments etc."


The GSD IS a working breed. Whether it is given an opportunity to work or not, at the heart of it , especially for the Cri du Coeur "I want to improve the breed" the breed is working . The best working dogs are not extremes they are BALANCED. 

a complete novice who says "I wanted to be a breeder to improve the breed" and says " not be measured up against a breed standard with which I do not agree." Who does not agree with the breed standard !! That is not a friend of the GSD . 



> " Ideally I'd like to place my puppies in 'pet' homes that want to be something more. I love starter families"


 If you do a good job then you will have the interest of the GSD veterans also.

Guide dog I know something about having had 5 successful dogs and a female picked for brood , also knowing some of the genetics used in different institutes breeding programs. They are not pet bred. The GSD, mine, and come from working backgrounds . The labs and golden retrievers come from hunt stock , their version of working.

Good luck.

*** Note from Admin. Carmen I edited this post and added in quotes to make it easier to read. ADMIN Lisa**


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## marbury

Please, Carmen... you're twisting my words. The GSD should be working in all aspects. I'm more interested in a form of work that makes him suitable for a more common home instead of a dog that could only comfortably fit in a SAR home or something similar.

It's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that a LOT of people on this board DISAGREE with AKC's PHYSICAL standard of the German Shepherd. That is what I am referring to. How many people have already commented with disgust on ASL hock-walking? I'm not alone in that thought and that is what I'm referring to.

I don't understand what you're looking for from me at this point, honestly. On one hand you say I need to have a goal that caters to specific types of GSDs and they must be a single line and they must be suited for a particular purpose. You're pushing me into ASL, which is fine for you to try to do. Then you're telling me I shouldn't have market goals? How else can you define where you should go with your shepherds? Telling me that my practices won't get me anywhere in the ASL crowd, but obviously due to my lack of experience in competitive dog sport I wouldn't have a chance in strong working lines either.

What is the first step? I assumed it was to try to start with the most basic structure of my 'ideal dog'. Clearly that was incorrect. What do I do now? How do we move from nitpicking and word-twisting into a question or series of questions that I can answer that moves us towards an actual solution?


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## Blanketback

Carmen, thank you for your insight regarding allergies. I wish it was easier to pinpoint where and why they affect our dogs - if it's something in the diet, the environment, or what. I do notice that quite a few GSDs here are having anal gland issues (mine did as well) and this was attributed to allergies by my vet. Knowing that the breed is prone to PF, it's a scary situation to be in. And being told that the allergy testing isn't conclusive (by one vet) and that there's not much you can do (by another) makes me feel bad for these dogs who are in discomfort.


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## carmspack

Perianal fistulas also have something to do with the GSD's conformation and tail set , and the tail being broad and hairy . AND temperament . A dog that is insecure will clamp the tail tight. They try to minimize their scent broadcast . When another dog comes to meet and greet they clamp the tail tightly. A confident dog carries his tail open and relaxed . When you have moisture and dark and no air and pressure that is ideal situation for infection , breaks in the skin, more infection, abscesses, and then the fistula.


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## jmdjack

> In my 'dream goal', I want my puppies to:
> 1) Go to families that will challenge and engage them
> 2) Try many new things and have fun doing it!
> 3) Turn heads and get comments like "now THATs a shepherd like I remember them"
> 4) Be trustworthy companions to children and family* and appropriately wary of those with whom they are not familiar
> 5) Provide minimal worry to their families in regards to possible health problems looming overhead
> 
> * * *
> 
> Those are lofty, too lofty for any 'real' breeding program. I know that. But it's the Ultimate Goal, which is a great place to start. Falling short of it still puts me somewhere in 'excellent attempt' territory. I don't want to place puppies that are working machines. I just want to produce stable, happy, balanced dogs that can adapt to any basic job. *I'm frankly not interested in schutzund 3 or IPO or dogs that will rip the face off the neighbor with a single command.* I like the romantic notion of a dog that shows courage and valor when necessary and full command of himself at all other times. My spayed bitch is this way, a quality that I admire highly.
> 
> * * *
> I know a LOT of folks on here are part of the GSD culture of 'if it doesn't work, it IS NOT a German Shepherd'. I'm treading on quite a few toes, I'm sure. That's why I started with ASL. *It didn't demand the extremes of temperament like it sure seems working lines do*. Unfortunately, you get a lot of 'crap' that comes with it; health issues, horribly weak/nervy temperaments etc.
> I'd love to get involved with some of the more GSD-centric sports, of course.


Hi Marbury, I have enjoyed following this thread. I appreciate your enthusiasm, and your willingness to acknowledge your mistakes and learn from them. These traits will benefit you in whatever you do. 

I am not a breeder and I have no desire to breed (imo, you have gotten some good advice from experienced breeders in this thread). However, my home is pretty much what you describe in your "goals" above (young kids, active family, dogs involved with everything we do, etc.). Because of this, I thought I would chime in to address your comment regarding working lines. We have two working line dogs, one "DDR" and one WGWL. Your comments about extremes in temperament and "rip your face off" are not in line with my experience at all. Ours are great family dogs who are up for anything and who carry the traits (in varying degrees) that GSDs should have. As such, I would encourage you to further educate yourself on working line dogs and gain some experience with them. You may ultimately find what you are looking for in the working lines.


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## lhczth

carmspack said:


> Perianal fistulas also have something to do with the GSD's conformation and tail set , and the tail being broad and hairy . AND temperament . A dog that is insecure will clamp the tail tight. They try to minimize their scent broadcast . When another dog comes to meet and greet they clamp the tail tightly. A confident dog carries his tail open and relaxed . When you have moisture and dark and no air and pressure that is ideal situation for infection , breaks in the skin, more infection, abscesses, and then the fistula.


PF is an autoimmune disease that tends to run in families so a genetic link probably exists. It has nothing to do with the dog's tail.


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## carmspack

with respect Lisa -- helped rescue dogs some 20 years ago and temperament and tail set did contribute - here are some links Perianal Fistulas in Dogs "This may be due to the larger number of glands in the perianal area when compared to other breeds, or the way the tail is set and carried. "

http://vetspecialistsofrochester.com/pdf/Internal-Medicine/Perianal%20fistulas.pdf "
reluctance to move or lift their tail. German
Shepherds are predisposed to perianal fistulae compared to other breeds. It is not
known why German Shepherds get PAF but it has been suggested to be a result of their​tail conformation or the number of sebaceous glands around the anus"

Anal Sac Inflammation and Scooting in Dogs - PetMeds®
*Perianal Fistulas *

A fistula is a tract that tunnels through the skin and deeper tissues of the body. Perianal fistulas are tracts that tunnel through the tissues under your dog's tail. Perianal fistulas are common in German Shepherds and Irish Setters but are rare in other breeds.
German Shepherds and Irish Setters have tails set low and carried close to the body so that air does not circulate under the tail. Bacteria multiply in this moist, dark environment and the immune system responds to the increase in bacteria by sending in white blood cells. In dogs that develop perianal fistulas, the white blood cells are more aggressive than they should be and they attack your dog's own skin. To control the white blood cells and prevent perianal fistulas, drugs that suppress the immune system, such as Cyclosporine, are prescribed. Many dogs with perianal fistulas also have inflammatory bowel disease, a disease also due to an overly aggressive immune system. Perianal fistulas, like inflamed anal sacs, are very painful and have a foul odor." 

Of course a strong immune system and good digestive system are very important , but you see how temperament can play a role, when there is no air circulating because of the dog clamping down.

next time you see dogs in the show ring , think about it. Watch any SV tape , pull any Das Schaferhund Magazin and see which "groups" have this tight tail carriage common to them.


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## lhczth

I know what PF's are. I dealt with it a number of years ago.


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## JakodaCD OA

having dealt with PF's as well, the low set tail can exasperate(sp) a dog with a fistula condition, because of lack of air to the area, but the reason PF's pop up are not because of the tail set. I do not agree that low set tails cause PF's.


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## kjdreyer

Really interesting and informative thread, I have learned a lot! I have a question regarding mixing of the lines though - in Jedda's pedigree, I see a lot of AKC and Canadian titles; show, herding, and tracking. This isn't true mixing of lines like was discussed previously though, correct? Just keeping a working breed working, right? She's ASL, but picked for me by breeder for temperment, and I'm glad her ears are too big, she's not a hock walker, and her back is nice and straight so she came to me instead!


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## selzer

kjdreyer said:


> Really interesting and informative thread, I have learned a lot! I have a question regarding mixing of the lines though - in Jedda's pedigree, I see a lot of AKC and Canadian titles; show, herding, and tracking. This isn't true mixing of lines like was discussed previously though, correct? Just keeping a working breed working, right? She's ASL, but picked for me by breeder for temperment, and I'm glad her ears are too big, she's not a hock walker, and her back is nice and straight so she came to me instead!



You got a good dog. They exist in ALL the lines. But some of the enthusiasts of specific lines feel their dogs are the only ones going to heaven. Oops! I mean, they feel their dogs are the only correct GSDs, and they think theirs are the only ones with the temperament and structure required for protection or SAR, police work or whatever. 

I think that some people say things like hock walkers, or broken backed, or ski-slopes, or coyotes, or nerve-bags, or hyper-idiots, because they try to make their brand of dog look better by putting down others. Are their extreme dogs in all the lines? Of course. But it is just ignorant to get on a GSD site and put down ANY of the different lines, because there is just no way around it, it is insulting some of the people's dogs. 

And, if you insult me, I will laugh it off most like, but insult my nieces, or my parents, or my dogs, and that spurs anger. When I see people doing that flagrantly, I lose respect for them.


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## qbchottu

lhczth said:


> PF is an autoimmune disease that tends to run in families so a genetic link probably exists. It has nothing to do with the dog's tail.





JakodaCD OA said:


> having dealt with PF's as well, the low set tail can exasperate(sp) a dog with a fistula condition, because of lack of air to the area, but the reason PF's pop up are not because of the tail set. I do not agree that low set tails cause PF's.


Agree. I too have dealt with this horrible disease and in the process have researched it extensively. Current literature cites PF as an autoimmune disease with a familial and genetic basis. In the shelter I volunteered at, we had different breeds come in with the disease as well, not just dogs with low tail set or with a particular conformation. The worst case I saw was a pit bull female with a high tail set, no excess hair around the perianal area, tail held upright, and had a SUPER temperament - nothing relating to low tail set, conformation, or temperament (???)

Tail set, broad base, hair in the perianal area might all exacerbate the disease, but are NOT the root cause... If that were so, tail amputation and shaving the area would be sufficient to treat and cure the disease - however, nobody recommends amputation anymore because it is not enough to cure the problem. As far as bringing temperament into it - I have _never _seen this reliably contribute to PF. Nice try bringing the WGSL into it - but this is not proved and is not reliable. I have seen GSDs of different lines (working, show, mishmash, backyard), different breeds, mixes and everything in between show up with PF so your causation is weak at best.


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## Mrs.K

Yup. I have a female from top working lines. Creme de la Creme of lines. 
She got three in January and has PF. Very young if you ask me. 
So far it is under control. She shows no pain, is active and happy, crazy to work. 
Should the day come where she no longer has that quality and PF should come back with a vengeance I will release her from it. I have done my research and I will not spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to put her through the horrible steroid treament that weakens the immune system even more. Right now I am setting everything on strengthening her immune system.

I do not know if that approach will work in the long run. I keep the area clean and put destin on it on a daily basis, I feed her Kefir twice a day, she also gets coconut oil. There is no redness, it is dry and no more excessive licking either, she is eager to eat. 

Once the licking starts, I know I have to step up my game. Once she will refuse food and become "anorexic", I know its time... 

If PF shows up in dogs that young, from top lines.... it is in the breed. I was asking the question on a group if it was ethical to breed PF dogs. 

I believe it should be tracked, just like HD/ED is tracked. A breeder who says they never had it, in my opinion, is lying. A breeder who is breeding for 20 years, doesnt know ifthey have or have not produced it. They cannot possibly have stayed in contact with every puppy they have produced. 

It is a big enough problem for vets to say that GSD'S are prone to it, so it is an issue. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## PupperLove

marbury said:


> Please, Carmen... you're twisting my words. The GSD should be working in all aspects. I'm more interested in a form of work that makes him suitable for a more common home instead of a dog that could only comfortably fit in a SAR home or something similar.
> 
> It's PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that a LOT of people on this board DISAGREE with AKC's PHYSICAL standard of the German Shepherd. That is what I am referring to. How many people have already commented with disgust on ASL hock-walking? I'm not alone in that thought and that is what I'm referring to.
> 
> I don't understand what you're looking for from me at this point, honestly. On one hand you say I need to have a goal that caters to specific types of GSDs and they must be a single line and they must be suited for a particular purpose. You're pushing me into ASL, which is fine for you to try to do. Then you're telling me I shouldn't have market goals? How else can you define where you should go with your shepherds? Telling me that my practices won't get me anywhere in the ASL crowd, but obviously due to my lack of experience in competitive dog sport I wouldn't have a chance in strong working lines either.
> 
> What is the first step? I assumed it was to try to start with the most basic structure of my 'ideal dog'. Clearly that was incorrect. What do I do now? How do we move from nitpicking and word-twisting into a question or series of questions that I can answer that moves us towards an actual solution?


Respectfully, I don't think Carmen is trying to twist your words or attack you. A well bred German Shepherd can compete in dogs sports or do SAR and relax comfortably in the home with the kids. Carmen has a lot of experience breeding and I consider her very 'wise' in the GSD world with some very successful dogs. She's reading between the lines and challenging you with questions you probably haven't yet thought about- questions you will need to ask yourself before becoming a breeder.

There is a huge split in the breed as you already know. You (general) need to learn about the different lines before settling on a specific type of breeding, and then about pedigrees and specific dogs in those lines and what they produce. What line do you want to start with? Do you want to mix? What traits are you hoping to bring forth from the bloodlines into your dogs? Working lines are not necessarily going to be 'go-go-go 24/7 rip people's faces off' kind of dogs.

Check this dog out: Dino-vom-Schaferliesel He is my puppy's grandsire. A pronounced working dog with a calm demeanor/gentle spirit. This is what I think a German Shepherd should be- this is the type of German Shepherd I someday hope to be breeding- a versatile, clear headed, kind, strong animal who can be worked or 'just a pet' and do it happily. 

And:http://www.schraderhausk9.com/dargo_.htm He is my male's great grandsire. Sounded like an awesome dog!

I, too, have big dreams of becoming a breeder. I have been following this thread and I think you have done a good job so far and have your head in the right place. I also think there is more to learn about the breed as a whole before you take the plunge. Keep up the good work learning, and try not to take things too personally.


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## marbury

Like I already said, Carmen brought up lots of good points. But she tried to make her mistake about assuming I had 4 GSDs from one breeder look like it was my fault instead of just saying 'oops'. She asserted that I was 'no friend to the GSD' because I'm trying to avoid an extreme look in what I produce. Other assumptions were also made with no data. That's what I'm referring to.

I went back and looked at one of my first dog breed books, a 1990 edition. In it is a bookmarked double spread about the GSD. The dog in that book is what i aim for; solid built but graceful, nice head, not extreme. Pigment left something to be desired, but I love darker dogs with a good dark head. That's my physical standard.

Carmen, do you use another hip registry than OFA? I plugged in a handful of the dogs on your website into the OFA database and it didn't pop up with any results. Do you recommend another method of checking hips?


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## kjdreyer

> "I think that some people say things like hock walkers, or broken backed, or ski-slopes, or coyotes, or nerve-bags, or hyper-idiots, because they try to make their brand of dog look better by putting down others. Are their extreme dogs in all the lines? Of course. But it is just ignorant to get on a GSD site and put down ANY of the different lines, because there is just no way around it, it is insulting some of the people's dogs.
> 
> And, if you insult me, I will laugh it off most like, but insult my nieces, or my parents, or my dogs, and that spurs anger. When I see people doing that flagrantly, I lose respect for them.


Wow, Selzer, you completely misread my intention if you thought I was insulting ANY dog. My breeder kept two from Jedda's litter because she thought they would most likely embody conformation breed standard, and I assume she let Jedda go to me because she didn't. I was only speaking about MY dog, and I didn't even know hock walker could be construed as an insult. Not my intention!


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## selzer

kjdreyer said:


> She's ASL, but picked for me by breeder for temperment, and I'm glad her ears are too big, she's not a hock walker, and her back is nice and straight so she came to me instead!


ASLs are not my thing but I am sick to death of people referring to them in derrogatory terms, like frog-walking, hock walker, etc. What you are saying, or what I am reading, is that you are happy your dog isn't a flashy show-dog, as you aren't showing, and wouldn't probably have him otherwise. 

But how it comes across to people who own the flashy show dogs, is being called once again hock-walkers or frogs -- how can those terms NOT be deragatory. The dogs do not walk on the hocks, and they do not resemble frogs. This crap is coming from people who do not own that type of dog, and are generally insensed that their dog would not do as well as one of these dogs. It gets parroted so much that people do not even think twice about using these terms. 

People ought to think before they diss a line of dogs or a type of dog. You are glad the showline dog isn't extreme, great. A lot of the show line dogs are not extreme, and some of them do well in shows. I have been to a lot of shows, and I have yet to see a dog walking on its hocks.


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## marbury

My first AKC show had some awesome ASLs. My second AKC show had many excellent ASL dogs, and mine (shockingly) did well. But then I got familiar with some folks from the world of Specialty Dogs and I started to see what everyone was referring to when they talk about that one 'documentary' that shows the frogdogs. I've since seen ASL campaign dogs that make me cringe. I can't see how they represent the epitome of graceful movement because their action is so choppy and floppy that it distracts me. So I use it derogatorily, yes. I personally find that level of the look way too extreme, the same way I find english bulldogs and pugs abhorrent. I've spent too long in animal anatomy courses to find that much skeletal distortion to be pleasing.

It's absolutely not a generalist statement. I think that after Jimmy Moses came out a few years ago and said "sorry, I took it too far" and started dialing back his angles the ASL crowd hopped on the bandwagon. It's not nearly as bad as it seems to me it was a few years ago. I've met way more middle-of-the-road ASL dogs (when it comes to angulation, I mean, not quality!) than I have Specialty Dogs, and I'm thankful for that.

My reaction was just because I don't think I'll ever have a name for myself with the upper echelons of the ASL crowd if they're all judging each other's stock based on the Specialty ideal. Hence why I like UKC, emphasizing more solid movement and less extreme reach with their new standard. Does that make sense?


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> ASLs are not my thing but I am sick to death of people referring to them in derrogatory terms, like frog-walking, hock walker, etc. What you are saying, or what I am reading, is that you are happy your dog isn't a flashy show-dog, as you aren't showing, and wouldn't probably have him otherwise.
> 
> But how it comes across to people who own the flashy show dogs, is being called once again hock-walkers or frogs -- how can those terms NOT be deragatory. The dogs do not walk on the hocks, and they do not resemble frogs. This crap is coming from people who do not own that type of dog, and are generally insensed that their dog would not do as well as one of these dogs. It gets parroted so much that people do not even think twice about using these terms.
> 
> People ought to think before they diss a line of dogs or a type of dog. You are glad the showline dog isn't extreme, great. A lot of the show line dogs are not extreme, and some of them do well in shows. I have been to a lot of shows, and I have yet to see a dog walking on its hocks.


It is not deragatory if it is the truth. I have watched a show recently and every single dog had issues, many dog aggressive as well. I wouldnt want a single one of those dogs. 

Poor example of the breed. And yeah, a nervbag is still a nervbag, no matter what line or type of dog it is. And just for the record there are some working lines with very weird angulation. There is a very popular dog on this very forum that has got to have the most horrid angulation in my opinion. I cant stand these type of dogs and all in the name of movement, even in working dogs....



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## Guardyan

Exactamundo! If it walks on its hocks, it's a hock walker. Call a spade a spade. 

There are problems with each of the types - acknowledge the issues and strive to do better, don't pretend the problems don't exist.


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## selzer

As I said, I lose respect for people who diss the different lines to try and elevate their own dogs. I saw the documentary, and I have to agree that there were some really ugly-looking structure in that documentary, but I have been to all-breed shows and many specialty shows in the US, and that is NOT what I am seeing at all. 

But even if it was, I would just not look at those dogs when I go for my next puppy. There is no reason in the world to make derrogatory statements about them in general. And that is what is being done. 

This site has a LOT of working line dogs. And it has a following for GSL dogs. And there ARE ASL people here as well. Why does it have to always come down to a pissing contest? Instead of saying, "ASLs are hock-walking frog dogs", why not say, "I prefer the way the working line dogs are angulated." One disses, one affirms. It is so much more fun to put down dogs than it is to point out what you like about your own dogs I guess. One says, "Your dog is defective." The other says, "I prefer, I like, It is more pleasing to me."


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## dogfaeries

selzer said:


> But how it comes across to people who own the flashy show dogs, is being called once again hock-walkers or frogs -- how can those terms NOT be deragatory. The dogs do not walk on the hocks, and they do not resemble frogs. This crap is coming from people who do not own that type of dog, and are generally insensed that their dog would not do as well as one of these dogs. It gets parroted so much that people do not even think twice about using these terms.



Thank you, Selzer. 

I probably shouldn't comment on the ASL bashing, since I'm stressed out from the tornado, and just really sensitive right now (maybe got a touch of post traumatic stress going on  ). The whole subject is like religion or politics. No one is going to change their minds. Everyone is "right". 

I am an owner of a couple of American show lines, that I show in AKC conformation. And a fabulous new puppy that I hope to show in the fall.
For all the people that say "I wouldn't have one of those crippled hock walkers", let me make it personal for you.

I have one AKC champion, Carly. She's on the large side of the standard. She doesn't have a fluffy plushy coat that is popular right now. She has side gait that will take your breath away. She is good coming and going, and is a powerful mover, good reach and drive. In the ring, she is outgoing and charismatic. At home, she is upbeat, energetic and pushy, great with kids. Vigilant. Opens every door and gate. Lots of ball drive. Constantly thinking - you can practically see the wheels turning in her head. My vet thinks I should get her in the program where kids read to dogs at the library. 

I have another bitch that I am showing, named Sage. She's well on her way to her AKC championship. I've recently posted about her - she is the dog that just went through a tornado and then turned around and went Best of Breed over 20 other GSDs, including 3 champions. She is very very pretty, and just floats when she moves. Nice front. In the ring, she is happy and (as a friend says about her) "chill". At home, she is my baby. Basically only listens to me. And she's a terrible back talker (which I find charming). Aloof with strangers, but good with kids. Big time prey drive - chases anything that moves, kills mice, bites sheep, chases the cat. You CAN call her off, but it's taken some work to get there.

They are not crippled freaks with calluses on their hocks. They aren't spooky, neurotic nervebags. They are two very nice GSD bitches. They aren't afraid to walk down the street, or go to a festival, or walk around a tornado ravaged neighborhood with sirens and helicopters, or go to the vet, or go ANYWHERE. I don't have to warn people not to touch them, or be afraid that they are going to bite a kid. They don't have to be muzzled at the vet, nor do they hide behind me. I keep reading about these very things over and over and over again on this forum. Problems with temperament.

My girls have had a wild run in the woods, climbing over logs, chasing bunnies, and then immediately hung out in the yard with a herd of screeching, playing little kids that they've never seen before. And not skipped a beat.

My 2 cents. My 2 dogs. Not hock walking crippled freaks.


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## dogfaeries

selzer said:


> Why does it have to always come down to a pissing contest? Instead of saying, "ASLs are hock-walking frog dogs", why not say, "I prefer the way the working line dogs are angulated." One disses, one affirms. It is so much more fun to put down dogs than it is to point out what you like about your own dogs I guess. One says, "Your dog is defective." The other says, "I prefer, I like, It is more pleasing to me."


Thank you again, Selzer, LOL. That's what I was trying to say with my lengthy dissertation about my own dogs. 

I prefer ASL. That's what I like, and that's what I have. But there are plenty of dogs here on the forum that I DO like that _aren't_ ASL.


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## carmspack

" not every allergy or demodex is genetic but may be due to feeding , over vaccinating , physiological stresses , an immune depression , when the immune system is not fully developed , after first vaccination, worming , stress of weaning etc. "
response Blanketback "regarding allergies. I wish it was easier to pinpoint where and why they affect our dogs - if it's something in the diet, the environment, or what. I do notice that quite a few GSDs here are having anal gland issues (mine did as well) and this was attributed to allergies by my vet. Knowing that the breed is prone to PF"

"Perianal fistulas also have something to do with the GSD's conformation and tail set " Key word ALSO . 

Not saying causative . Not helping the situation any. 

A stressed dog , and shy is distressed , not ready to face the world head on , is going to have the immune system challenged , have problems with general health and not be thrifty . 

Should an animal be bred with this problem ? NO.
Should an animal with subpar health be bred ? NO
Should an animal with questionable temperament be bred? NO

Answers to Marbury
" But she tried to make her mistake about assuming I had 4 GSDs from one breeder look like it was my fault instead of just saying 'oops'."
What?
Well actually that is a twist ---
I did say "You (one) can not go out and buy dogs to set up shop to become a breeder. You (one) can not go out and buy a foundation bitch, and the purchase ...." You being kept in the general not personal .
I was not alone in that sentiment .
. As eager as you may be to get started (your timeline) you don't know enough yet , did not have a good mentor to council you , to go and collect dogs to start a program . 
You said you were so disappointed because you spent " probably tens of thousands in upkeep costs for the past few years" taken from your first post.

Meanwhile I said "Be as passionate about the breed as you are of the enterprise of breeding."

Marbury "She asserted that I was 'no friend to the GSD' because I'm trying to avoid an extreme look in what I produce" here is the discussion

"The GSD IS a working breed. Whether it is given an opportunity to work or not, at the heart of it , especially for the Cri du Coeur "I want to improve the breed" the breed is working . The best working dogs are not extremes they are BALANCED. 

a complete novice who says "I wanted to be a breeder to improve the breed" and says " not be measured up against a breed standard with which I do not agree." Who does not agree with the breed standard !! That is not a friend of the GSD . "

Not ever , not once have I promoted extreme anything , not conformation , not drive -- yes to balance , balance , balance , versatility , utility, robust health, orthopedic soundness , longevity . Not ever extreme anything. Balance is harder to achieve and maintain . 

Marbury "I went back and looked at one of my first dog breed books, a 1990 edition. In it is a bookmarked double spread about the GSD. The dog in that book is what i aim for; solid built but graceful, nice head, not extreme. Pigment left something to be desired, but I love darker dogs with a good dark head. That's my physical standard"

me - might be good , might not . Who is it . There is a breed standard . I provided you some examples VA Wanko von der Maaraue .

hock walker is not an insult -- it is a fault , and yes they were common in the Specialty ring -- even Marbury recognized this . Apparently there is a change to less extreme angulation. 

Selzer " why not say, "I prefer ..." answer because it comes down to there being a written breed standard, not a personal preference --
Selzer "
This crap is coming from people who do not own that type of dog, and are generally insensed that their dog would not do as well as one of these dogs"

my answer -- sometimes it comes from people that have been committed and involved who have witnessed a good line of dogs , which if you go back into the Reviews and redbooks of the 70's 80's which document ASL you will see plenty of . That is the shame of it . They were good. They could even work . And then with inbreeding on Lance of Fran Jo , Zeus and Zeto -- year after year that extreme rear , dogs with exaggeration in conformation, males with collie heads , slim , no substance , but mostly that extreme conformation kept coming and coming .

I was there. I handled dogs . I had owned Champions, I produced Champions . Best of Breed , Champion under one year -- and High in Trial with score in the 190's at the same show. When I say champion I am talking major points - 3 or 4 shows -- stiff competition. 
You have that and maintain it, meanwhile all around you there is this race for more and more extreme and you become an anachronism.

If you go to 
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs the bicolor "Timmy" is a progeny of my female , sister to Kilo , and Cory .
I knew Cory well after he was advanced in age . BEAUTIFUL dog with beautiful conformation , soundness in movement -- balanced to go all day if needed -- and he was a solid performer in French Ring -- got Linda hooked to get Timmy in . Timmy could have , should have had a Ring title also but the club folded -- so quickly the dog was put in to SchH were he easily was titled .

Whatever Marbury chooses to do she has to do with some knowledge . 
If you have one dog it is good and true that as Selzer says 
"You got a good dog. They exist in ALL the lines"

When you breed you have to look far beyond the one dog in front of you. That "good" has to go deep into the pedigree . 

Marbury
I even offered you an entire collection of German Shepherd Dog Reviews at no cost outside of shipping if it is ASL that you settle on. 

Dogfaeries sounds like you have some good dogs.

anyway -- good luck on the breeding --


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## Anubis_Star

There are plenty of top pointed ASL that do indeed walk on their hocks, have callused pasterns (I've seen this first hand ), weak bone, snippy heads, roman noses, etc. Dont hide it so as to not insult a person's preference. If they dont like hock walking dogs that lack secondary sex characteristics, stop breeding and crowning such dogs! Dont cry about it! 

That being said, there are many ASL that have very nice conformation, strong and not over-exaggerated simply to promote an elongated trot. And on the flip side, there are many weak nerved working line dogs, too sporty, easily spooked off the sleeved, decoys at trials toning down their motions and presenting the sleeve to prevent a dog from being chased off instead of pushing the dog properly. Over-sized, over-stocky dogs bred for dark pigment. 

Dont get hot and bothered by legit criticism that might be deemed offensive, instead fix the offense! 

Yes I apologized, the way I spoke about an individual dog earlier was out of line. But fact of the matter remains that weak conformation is weak conformation. Crappy nerves and poor temperament can never be fixed. Doesnt matter the lined or the titles or the achievements. 

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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Dog Fairies You just described the kind of dog I want especially temperment. I have been going to our local dog show now for 10 years . I watch the GSDs show usually 3 mornings out of four and I usually go to their specailty. I saw Dallas and alot of other top dogs but I think each year I see one maybe two dogs in each show who have the elongation that is being talked about. I some times get to hold the leash of some of the show dogs as their handlers are getting another dog ready.They have been calm well except for the young ones who were just cute and excited. I think like anything else there are extremes. I like less slant but what Im most interested ini s temperment and health. Diane your girls sound wonderful and i look forward to hearing about your boy.


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## marbury

Hey, I have two ASL bitches that are beautiful. One has callouses on the back of her hocks from when she flopped around the ring as a puppy. She's always been clean coming and going, never any wobbling or crossing. But she's long in the hock. She also popped into easty-westy for almost 9 months and it terrified me. She grew into it, and her movement is drool-worthy at a year. So I have the right to say that about my own dog. I was worried for a while; as a puppy she was so well put together, and the leggy stage left me wondering how in the world I'd ever succeed in UKC with her. But she's pulled together and every day looks more and more like the solid puppy I bought her as. She was a hock-walker for about six months, and she looked like she paddled out in the front. I used her in my most recent UKC show as a point-builder for my other dogs and for a few other folks. She one anything more than Best Female and Best of Winners. She's too leggy for UKC right now! 

So to make everyone feel better, she is MY hockwalking, paddling dog. I can say that because she is MINE and it is MY evaluation. If she hadn't grown out of it she would not be with me, but she is maturing so well and I'm SO thankful she's caught up to her gangly legs.


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## marbury

dogfaeries, you described the dog I was attempting to describe in my 'breeding goals' post. That's what my spayed bitch is in every way, and what I want to use as the 'stamp' of my lines. Dogs like that are just 'easy' to live with, no worry and no strife. That's my goal.

I love ASL like we're talking about now. After going to so many AKC shows where I had to watch a different-proportioned specimen take the ribbon just because of the handler on the other end of the lead I didn't think folks were having all that much success with their ASLs in the ring. I guess the South East circuit doesn't have as many owner/handlers as other areas.


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## dogfaeries

marbury said:


> dogfaeries Dogs like that are just 'easy' to live with, no worry and no strife. That's my goal.


I think my dogs are pretty easy to live with, but I have been known to announce to the lot of them that they are getting on my last nerve. 

When Carly was younger, my breeder asked me if she _ever_ got tired. No, she doesn't. The dog just goes and goes and goes. You have to tell her enough is enough, which gets you the "you can't _possibly_ be talking to me" look from her. Right now she is in a chair, with her head on the arm rest, staring at the dog door, just in case she needs to go patrol the yard. She is a very vigilant dog.


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## martemchik

marbury said:


> I love ASL like we're talking about now. After going to so many AKC shows where I had to watch a different-proportioned specimen take the ribbon just because of the handler on the other end of the lead I didn't think folks were having all that much success with their ASLs in the ring. I guess the South East circuit doesn't have as many owner/handlers as other areas.


I think every area is dominated by professional handlers. Many of the GSDs in our area that have owner/handlers are just for fun dogs and the people aren't really serious about breeding. If they get a champion out of it, they'll stud and make some money, but its not really the end goal.

The larger kennels really show their dogs and anyone that pays them. A member of my club, and a large breeder in our area was trained to handle by Jimmy Moses, he pretty much dominates the handling scene. If he's handling your dog...you'll probably win. It also helps that the owners have generally been on the scene long enough that they know what judges will like what dogs. If a judge likes a bigger bitch...they'll put in their bigger bitch, if they have a small bitch...they won't even bother entering her in the show.

I've seen the one handler "lose" but it was clearly to a better dog.


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## Andaka

I have ASL dogs and love them! I grew up showing GSD's as a kid, and it has continued until recently when health issues made it difficult. I have competed in obedience, agility, and herding for nearly 30 years, and conformation for 45 years. The ASL dogs tend to run along a pendulum swing of really angulated to less angulated. I have seen temperaments run along the same pendulum. Right now, in some areas, the pendulum is swinging back to better temperament and less angulation. Part of that may be attributed to the careful additions of German lines, and part is just the general thought that things had gone too far.


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## carmspack

" Right now, in some areas, the pendulum is swinging back to better temperament and less angulation."

this is what I said , I have seen this also . Slow , but present . The Reviews really let you see trends in fast forward so the trends and shifts are more apparent.


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## selzer

The standard is kind of like the Bible. Lots of people believe they are following it. People interpret it differently. And some people think parts of it don't apply to them, so they ignore those parts. 

And then there is how they weight each deviation -- how the judge weighs each deviation with regards to the whole dog.


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## dogfaeries

selzer said:


> And then there is how they weight each deviation -- how the judge weighs each deviation with regards to the whole dog.


And that's why one day you'll go Best of Breed, and the next day you'll get completely dumped and not even win your class. Different judge, putting an emphasis on different things.


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## wolfstraum

There are dogs from ASL people who are not extremely angulated or poor tempered. I have seen a couple in the Obedience rings, but these are not doubling their titles often in the conformation ring...but the big push in the show ring the years I have watched does not support that type any more than it does my European WL...

But I have walked around a few dozen AKC shows with my working line dogs and been stopped by spectator after spectator to admire my dog and every single one who I talk to is confused and puzzled by what they see winning in the ring....this is not meant to be an insult - it is an observation and a report of facts. 

On Saturday, I was sitting beside a German woman...she had her first GSD, a female by X-box.....she proudly showed her to me...I said, oh yes, she is a pretty girl....then she proceeded to tell me how UGLY the WL dogs are, that they are horrid and should not be bred...yada yada yada....I merely said - well **I*** think MY female is the most gorgeous female *I* have ever seen....and she is a workingline and that is what I prefer...this lady - who has never bred a dog, has never titled a dog, has never OWNED a GSD before continued about how much drive her dog has, how show lines have as much drive as working and so on....

You don't have to know anything to have an opinion.

The key is that you have to figure out who actually has done something to figure out whose opinion is worthwhile.

Lee


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## marbury

dogfaeries said:


> And that's why one day you'll go Best of Breed, and the next day you'll get completely dumped and not even win your class. Different judge, putting an emphasis on different things.


Oh golly do I hear that! Sometimes I see dogs get put up that are just blatantly outside the standard and I have to wonder... "why?!"

I guess they're seeing something I'm just not honed in on at that time. But that's the fun of showing!


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## carmspack

then the championship has no value?

maybe the dog that got dumped the next show had some bad reaction - spooked or aggressed.

I've been at shows were dogs were dismissed. 

So whoever posted that extreme example , what dogs were in competition with each other to have so dramatic a difference in placement. Most shows I attended you had two capable winners exchanging placements show to show , and you wished the other one , a worthy competitor would get stalled and not make time on the entry.


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## dogfaeries

carmspack said:


> Most shows I attended you had two capable winners exchanging placements show to show , and you wished the other one , a worthy competitor would get stalled and not make time on the entry.


Sage was fairly consistent in the dog show cluster she was entered in, a week or so ago. She showed in 2 all breed shows and 2 specialties. Best of Breed in one all breed show, and won her class in the other all breed. And she went Reserve in both Specialties. 

And yes! We compete against some of the same dogs over and over, and its a toss up. Wins seem to go back and forth. You hope sometimes that they decide to go to a different show that weekend, LOL.

I had a funny thing happen last year when I was showing Carly in Little Rock. We breezed into town, and took the 4 point major with her. I swear no one groomed their dog, and everyone looked like they had just fallen out of bed. I have no idea what that was about, but the next day? Everyone's dog's were groomed, and all the handlers were all spiffed up. I wonder if they thought there would be no competition and they wouldn't have to try...


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## dogfaeries

I'll stop hijacking this thread, but one more set of stories and I promise to stop.




wolfstraum said:


> But I have walked around a few dozen AKC shows with my working line dogs and been stopped by spectator after spectator to admire my dog and every single one who I talk to is confused and puzzled by what they see winning in the ring....this is not meant to be an insult - it is an observation and a report of facts.



Just a few dog show experiences:

I was at a dog show in Arkansas recently with Sage, and there was a 1/2 GSL and 1/2 ASL entered, and a sable working line dog. The working line dog was nice, but the woman practically _ran_ from me when I tried to approach her with Sage. I never did get to tell her that I thought her dog was a nice dog - she avoided me like the plague, lol. I'm sure she's had some bad experiences with show people, but not EVERYONE acts like an idiot. 

I had Sage with me up in Kansas, watching a herding trial last year. A man wearing a jacket from some schutzhund club came up to me and told me that Sage was very nice. I swear I thought he was making fun of her at first, but no, he was sincere. He asked me if she did herding, and said, no, just herding instinct tests so far. 

For the last year, I have had someone at _every_ show I've been to, come up to me and tell me that Sage is beautiful, and they are glad to see a shepherd that doesn't have a sloping rear end. I don't know what to say to them, because I keep thinking "the german shepherd forum would hate my dog, and disagree with you." I usually just say, umm thanks, and try to move along.


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## LifeofRiley

marbury said:


> In my 'dream goal', I want my puppies to:
> 1) Go to families that will challenge and engage them
> 2) Try many new things and have fun doing it!
> 3) Turn heads and get comments like "now THATs a shepherd like I remember them"
> 4) Be trustworthy companions to children and family* and appropriately wary of those with whom they are not familiar
> 5) Provide minimal worry to their families in regards to possible health problems looming overhead
> 
> _*Obviously, not every puppy is suited for every home. I've placed many puppies through rescue work, don't worry... I would never presume that there's any chance of having a litter of entirely middle-of-the-road pups_
> 
> *Those are lofty, too lofty for any 'real' breeding program. I know that. * But it's the Ultimate Goal, which is a great place to start. Falling short of it still puts me somewhere in 'excellent attempt' territory.


I have to say when I look at the list of goals, I do not see lofty goals. I see goals that most people could accomplish by adopting a dog (any dog, not just GSD) from a shelter. Of course for point 3, you would have to stop the statement at a dog that turns head. 

The only possible exception is Point 5. That is one where you just can never predict in a shelter setting - although going with a multi-mixed breed seems to reduce the risk of some of the endemic problems that exist in any one breed.

I am not a breed fancier, I am a dog person. My intersection with this breed is through my work with a all-breed rescue and adopting my foster dog who happened to be a GSD - who meets points 1-4 on your criteria. Unfortunately, he has had seizures and has been diagnosed with epilepsy, so point 5 is a fail. But, I wouldn't trade him for the world and I would never choose to go to a breeder for any of the points on your list because when I am looking for a companion dog I know I will find the right one for me at the shelter.

But, if I was a breed fancier, or a breeder, the fact that producing dogs to meet the above requirements is something to work toward, versus being the starting place, would worry me about the state of the breed.

In fact, I am really glad I did not come to this forum before I adopted my dog because I think all the temperament problems reported in this breed on this forum would have freaked me out. Luckily, I now have had a lot of experience with GSDs in rescue and know that unknown breeding does not necessarily mean basket case.

I can tell from your posts that you are WAY, WAY ABOVE THE AVERAGE person who contemplates breeding. But, I really think that there are already too many people out there trying to realize their individual visions for the breed. I know you have worked in rescue so I know you have thought hard about that. But, where does this all end... endless people trying to fix a particular line vs. the breed as a whole. I don't know. Maybe the best thing would be a moratorium on all breeding for awhile.

Okay, Marbury, sorry to have hijacked your thread to express some of these thoughts. As I said, I admire your efforts to date. Just think that instead of channeling them towards breeding, you could channel them towards being an advocate for the breed by educating others, etc.


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## Xeph

> Maybe the best thing would be a moratorium on all breeding for awhile.


Oy...no thank you


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## selzer

LifeofRiley said:


> *In fact, I am really glad I did not come to this forum before I adopted my dog because I think all the temperament problems reported in this breed on this forum would have freaked me out*. Luckily, I now have had a lot of experience with GSDs in rescue and know that unknown breeding does not necessarily mean basket case.


I really don't want to let this statement pass without doing a reality check on it. 

Ok, How many GSDs are there in say the US? Guestimates based on the AKC number of registrations for the year of 2004 puts us at roughly half a million, going with 46k registered per year times 11 years. 

As you can see that is based on dogs living 11 years, and all dogs that can be registered being registered, and makes no consideration for the bajillion shepherds that were bred without the benefit of any registration. 

From my own numbers, I would not be surprised if half of the registratable dogs are simply never registered. So we can increase our guestimate to 1 million GSDs in the US alone, allowing the masses of unregistratable dogs to even out the number of dogs that don't make it to 11 years. 

But even if you go with 1 year's numbers. 46 thousand GSDs are going through teething, potty training, the stupid teenager phase, training, socializing, newbie owners -- you get the picture. 

Next, and really a good reason we do not allow breeder bashing here, people generally do not make threads that say, Wowza! I have the dog of my dreams and he is just PERFECT in every way. No, people tend to join the training and behavior threads, when they have an issue. 

Some of those issues are typical puppy growing pains. Some of those issues are newbies gaining experience raising a puppy for first time, or a GSD for the first time. But no way do we have 46 thousand people complaining about their pups. 

Sometimes we have a few, sometimes we have many. And when we here nothing but, "Help, my dog has bitten 3 people!" it can give you a bad view of the breed. But the fact is, that the majority of the posts are, "Is my 9 week old GSP aggressing?" 

We have a handful of people that discuss a biting incident each year. I have no numbers, but on this forum, we get a spurt of them, and then nothing. For months. And yes, some people are not going to talk about it here. But even if you multiply the total number of serious temperament issues we have on this site by 5 or 10, it is nowhere near an issue when you consider that there are likely half a million to a million GSDs out there. 

I looked for studies, and I looked for statistics. I got one that said 63 attacks and 7 deaths, but I don't know the time frame. Another attributes 17 deaths to German Shepherds, over a 20 year period. The thing is, there are so many of these dogs out there, that there will be accidents on occasions, and there will be some dogs that have serious temperament flaws, but I think taking a look at the number of posts on a forum such as this, and deciding that GSDs have terrible temperaments, is a bit out there. 

Even if the vast majority of the 20k+ members joined because of a training/behavior issue -- that STILL doesn't suggest that 500,000 to a million GSDs are defective. No, not everyone with a GSD problem finds this forum, but then not everyone who finds this forum was looking because of a temperament issue. 

These are strong, powerful dogs that have the capability of killing children or elderly people. A single dog would probably have a hard time killing a healthy adult human. But still, with as many dogs out there, and as powerful as they are, and as much as the average population does not know about how to handle dogs and raise puppies, one would think there would be a lot more problems. I think it is a tribute to the breed how well the vast majority of GSDs do. 

We tend to report and remember the negative. If 1 GSD out of 100,000 GSDs kills someone, then 99,999 GSDs out of 100,000 GSDs did not. It really is a rare thing. So rare, that you would want to look at exactly what happened and why it happened when it does. And yes, there are more bites than fatalities, but I really cannot get good numbers on how many bites requiring medical attention have been attributed to GSDs.


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## LifeofRiley

Selzer, I agree with you. 

I did not mean to suggest that I think that GSDs are all basket cases. My experience suggests otherwise and I now understand enough about this board's dynamics to read between the lines. 

But, the (understandable) emphasis this board places on going to a "reputable breeder" tends to suggest it is the only way to get a dog with a good temperament.

My argument is simply that shelters and rescues are stock full of dogs that would meet the temperament goals the OP stated as her breeding goals - GSD or not.


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## selzer

I would rather someone want to produced a balanced dog -- not a schutzhund champion, not a grand-champion, not over-sized, not super high drive, not a severe couch potato, proper temperament as written in the Standard of your line of shepherds -- yeah they are a little different, but more the same than different. 

Given that the dogs produced are being bred with respect to the health/genetics of the breeding dogs. 

When people breed to produce their vision of the ideal dog, to _improve_ the breed so to speak, that is when we are getting the extremes, extreme size, extreme angles, extreme drives. 

The vast majority of the dogs a breeder produces will be pets. And even those that go to show or working homes, they have to be able to function as pets. I think that if we aim for a good balanced dog with respect to the standard, then we will have dogs that will be good pets, and maybe we can pick some flyers out of the mix that will be suited for more.


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## LifeofRiley

selzer said:


> When people breed to produce their vision of the ideal dog, to _improve_ the breed so to speak, that is when we are getting the extremes, extreme size, extreme angles, extreme drives.


Again, I agree with this statement. If you look back on my post I used very similar language when talking about not needing more people breeding to their vision.

Perhaps, where we disagree is that I think the majority of people looking for a pet/companion should look into dogs in need of a home before going in the breeder direction. Because, again, the temperament that is described above by the OP can easily be found in shelters. Particularly, if people really thought what they want vs. their romanticized ideal of any given breed.

Health, well, that is another story.... I am willing to take the risk with shelter/rescue dogs because I know that I will do the best by them no matter what happens.


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## selzer

LifeofRiley said:


> Again, I agree with this statement. If you look back on my post I used very similar language when talking about not needing more people breeding to their vision.
> 
> Perhaps, where we disagree is that I think the majority of people looking for a pet/companion should look into dogs in need of a home before going in the breeder direction. Because, again, the temperament that is described above by the OP can easily be found in shelters. Particularly, if people really thought what they want vs. their romanticized ideal of any given breed.
> 
> Health, well, that is another story.... I am willing to take the risk with shelter/rescue dogs because I know that I will do the best by them no matter what happens.


There are many reasons to choose a breeder, shelter, or rescue as the source of a new family member. I am a breeder. I do not try to encourage people away from shelters or rescues and of course breeders. I guess I am just happy when people do not buy dogs from pet stores, or do not _rescue_ a pup from a breeder that they feel is not good, so they wanted to get the puppy out of there. 

A dog is a living, breathing creature. It is likely to have health concerns over the course of its life, wherever it is sourced. 

Some people want to go to a breeder because they believe in their dogs, and like what they produce, or even like/trust the breeder. They have a particular look or temperament that they are looking for. They are repeat customers. They do not want to spay or neuter their pet. They don't want strings attached. And so many other reasons. Maybe they want a purebred dog with registration papers. There are many reasons to go to breeders. Also, by testing the sire and dam, and matching sire and dam because of what they produce, it does stack the deck in your favor when it comes to genetic issues.

I do not think any one is better because they rescue or that anyone is better because they get dogs out of a pound, or that anyone is better because they go to a breeder. I think that is just a personal preference. No one should be given a guilt trip because of where they got their dog, or where they intend to get their dog. However, I think education is in order for those who get them from pet stores/puppy mills.


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## carmspack

http://gsd-legends.eu/Varia/DSH-Geschichte.pdf


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> http://gsd-legends.eu/Varia/DSH-Geschichte.pdf


Aaaah, Jan Demeyre. Either people hate or love him. He's the one who will stop at nothing to unravel the corruption in the SV. :thumbup:


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## cliffson1

I know of him, but don't know him personally, I only am in interested in truth and facts in what he writes.
I will say I find it amusing that more than once I have found him to make an assertion about corruption in judging and GSL, and the apologist come out and attack him and lo and behold a year later it turns out what he said was true....then all of a sudden the apologist get quiet. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not entitled to our own facts


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, he's opened up a huge can of worms. I've talked to him quite a bit. He has brought a lot of change in Germany. He's got a lot of haters, and the SV tried to throw him out of the club, even took him to court, etc. but there is simply no denying that corruption exists, and without Jan, it wouldn't have come out the way it did.


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## carmspack

Selzer said "The vast majority of the dogs a breeder produces will be pets. And even those that go to show or working homes, they have to be able to function as pets. I think that if we aim for a good balanced dog with respect to the standard, then we will have dogs that will be good pets, and maybe we can pick some flyers out of the mix that will be suited for more."

Although it may be true that the vast majority of GSD being produced end up as pets - that is not the ultimate goal in breeding . Not for a GSD . There are so many breeds created specifically to be companion dogs . This is absolutely not saying that the GSD should not nor could not be a companion - of course it CAN if it is bred with all components of temperament and character properly addressed. Less than this is wrong. See the thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-people-who-want-pets-not-well-served-14.html which so far, ends on page 14 with some pretty good statements from Cliff and Debbieg , who says , as did I earlier on in that thread "Many breeders cater to the market" . Yet even in this thread "lost my intended" there are concerns about segments of the market not being interested -- which market do you want to appeal to. The breed should not be market driven . 
A good dog can slide into any life plan .

I don't know about the flyers out of the mix --


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## martemchik

LifeofRiley said:


> Perhaps, where we disagree is that I think the majority of people looking for a pet/companion should look into dogs in need of a home before going in the breeder direction. Because, again, the temperament that is described above by the OP can easily be found in shelters. Particularly, if people really thought what they want vs. their romanticized ideal of any given breed.


The big difference is that on this forum you're dealing with a lot of people that are doing things with their dogs. Although they are pets...they are doing competitions that are way above the pet level.

So...I'm currently really into obedience and agility. I want to excel in those sports as much as I can, and the only way to do that is to get a dog that will allow me to do that. Although I might be able to find that in a rescue...chances are slim that the next obedience grand victor is sitting in a kennel somewhere. But if I go to a breeder...with a proven line of dogs in obedience/agility/SchH...and also a proven line of healthy dogs with no hip problems, I'm more likely to get the dog that I will need for the next 10 years.

I think the way you're looking at it is that you're benefiting the dogs (by rescuing), which is a wonderful thing. But many people here...and all over...need to make sure that their dogs fit what THEY want to do and aren't just worried about giving a dog a home.

And for the same reason that selzer listed for breeders doing what they do, each one of us has their own ideas of what a GSD should be. So although for you the temperament you found in Riley or in another rescue is "perfect" for me it isn't...and you will think the same way about my boy...he might be too much this or that for you.

And as a note about carmen's last post...I do think breeders need to strive for something. Since for every 1 champion or working K9 they produce they'll probably produce 20 or more very excellent pets in the process.


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## selzer

There is no reason a balanced dog cannot be trained to work. They do not need to be hyper idiots to be an obedience champion or to be a police dog. I have sold dogs to police officers/k9 handlers and have gotten good reports, though I have sold them as pets. The person who owns the studs I have used has many police dogs out there, and they are all German Show Line dogs. 

What I mean aiming to breed a balanced dog is balanced in structure and balanced in temperament. I think when we try to go for extremes, we run the risk of producing dogs that cannot function as pets.


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## Mrs.K

Why do people always say our dogs are hyper? There is a difference between a hyper dog and a driven dog. Energetic isn't the same as hyper either! Just saying...


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## selzer

There are hyper dogs out there. There is a video of a puppy that has been around in an x-pen. I personally do not think that pup is any more correct that the worst example of sloping top-line. 

I have a hyper bitch. She is not correct. No way would I breed her. I can manage her. I have trained her. I have titled her. It doesn't change the fact that she is a hyper idiot.


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## marbury

selzer said:


> I have a hyper bitch. She is not correct. No way would I breed her. I can manage her. I have trained her. I have titled her. It doesn't change the fact that she is a hyper idiot.


This. The clinic I work at handles a lot of the local aggressive/barely manageable dogs for boarding that other facilities will not deal with. MOST of the shepherds we board are, for one reason or another and to steal selzer's excellent term, "hyper idiots". I don't know if it's because of the local prolific breeder's lines **name removed** or if it's because we have a lot of macho or military guys, but they are what I would consider unmanageable for the average family. They have to be muzzled to touch for shots or exams, they thrash and roll when on leash, they pant and pace in their runs all day, bark at anything that moves, and cannot be kenneled next to or across from other dogs. All their mommas and daddies are very proud that they have 'working dogs'. "Dad was a bomb dog", "his dad chases guys and does the german thing", "we saw mom take down a guy at training". And the worst part is it's not just us that have trouble dealing with them; when we find raging ear infections the family says they cannot possibly medicate the dog because he'd bite them if they went near his ears.

Then we have the clients with what I can see could be 'real' working dogs. They are what y'all are describing when you tell us about how they should be. They have energy, but it lacks the uncontrolled, neurotic edge. The owners have done training and they have appropriate 'tack' for the dog to keep it in check. We may still have to muzzle them, but they don't alligator roll or act a fool when we do.

I think too many 'breeders' try and try to produce lines that are just showy, hyper idiots. They'd have no place on a police force because they'd be a liability and wouldn't succeed in trials because they'd have the attention span of a sparrow. When I worked for my mentor in her kennel she had two hyper idiots, and they were a pain in my hind end every single day. You'd run them out, play ball for an hour, and still have to 'catch' them to bring them inside. Wouldn't listen, had no respect, just go go go go go. They were working line dogs.

So my PERSONAL experience with 'working dogs' has been heavily weighted to the negative. I need to find more venues with responsible working dogs to meet better examples of the lines that produce higher drive dogs. That's where I'm coming from.


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## gagsd

You are welcome to come out and train with us. Either "my" field in or the schutzhund club.


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## gagsd

marbury said:


> When I worked for my mentor in her kennel she had two hyper idiots, and they were a pain in my hind end every single day. You'd run them out, play ball for an hour, and still have to 'catch' them to bring them inside. Wouldn't listen, had no respect, just go go go go go. They were working line dogs.


If we are thinking of the same person, I was not aware she had any working line dogs.

As to the breeder you named, no he is not considered "reputable." 

However, dogs that act aggressively in kennels, or lack training, are not necessarily poor breeding, or incorrect breeding.

Your mentor and I spoke often over the years, and what I have always said to her when we debated, is a GSD lacking in "aggression" is like a Labrador that can't swim.


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## Gwenhwyfair

See, I wouldn't ever argue pedigrees or training or genetics with you or Cliff.

I do, however, have thoughts about statements such as the below in red.

Dog breeding has _always_ been market driven, except for breeds that were reserved for royalty and surely we don't want that sort of elitism again? At first dogs were broadly catagorized into utilitarian types and then as human society became more specialized so did the dogs, hence the birth of actual 'breeds'. During the industrial age as people moved from agrian communities to jobs in cities the types of dogs changed. As people had more leisure time and money they started breeding and keeping dogs for pets, companions. Ironically, though, some of the oldest 'pure breeds' are* toy* breeds such as the Pekignese, Shih Tzu and Tibetan Terrier (along with some guarding breeds and sight hounds).

I see it as dogs having evolved along side human society.

I think the free market works just fine. It supplies the types of dogs that people of this day and age seek. Most people don't need the same type of dog my ancestors desired.

The problem here is more of a 'trademark' issue. Who gets to own the title of 'Real' German Shepherd. BTW the King Shepherd and Shiloh Shepherd people think their dogs are the 'real' GSD too, replicating the 'old fashioned' German Shepherd.

I honestly don't know how this will sort out in the end because each of the many groups think they have the right type of GSD and nothing will change that. It's never ending cycle.....



carmspack said:


> Selzer said "The vast majority of the dogs a breeder produces will be pets. And even those that go to show or working homes, they have to be able to function as pets. I think that if we aim for a good balanced dog with respect to the standard, then we will have dogs that will be good pets, and maybe we can pick some flyers out of the mix that will be suited for more."
> 
> Although it may be true that the vast majority of GSD being produced end up as pets - that is not the ultimate goal in breeding . Not for a GSD . There are so many breeds created specifically to be companion dogs . This is absolutely not saying that the GSD should not nor could not be a companion - of course it CAN if it is bred with all components of temperament and character properly addressed. Less than this is wrong. See the thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-people-who-want-pets-not-well-served-14.html which so far, ends on page 14 with some pretty good statements from Cliff and Debbieg , who says , as did I earlier on in that thread "Many breeders cater to the market" . Yet even in this thread "lost my intended" there are concerns about segments of the market not being interested -- which market do you want to appeal to.The breed should not be market driven .
> A good dog can slide into any life plan .
> 
> I don't know about the flyers out of the mix --


----------



## selzer

marbury said:


> This. The clinic I work at handles a lot of the local aggressive/barely manageable dogs for boarding that other facilities will not deal with. MOST of the shepherds we board are, for one reason or another and to steal selzer's excellent term, "hyper idiots". I don't know if it's because of the local prolific breeder's lines **name removed** or if it's because we have a lot of macho or military guys, but they are what I would consider unmanageable for the average family. They have to be muzzled to touch for shots or exams, they thrash and roll when on leash, they pant and pace in their runs all day, bark at anything that moves, and cannot be kenneled next to or across from other dogs. All their mommas and daddies are very proud that they have 'working dogs'. "Dad was a bomb dog", "his dad chases guys and does the german thing", "we saw mom take down a guy at training". And the worst part is it's not just us that have trouble dealing with them; when we find raging ear infections the family says they cannot possibly medicate the dog because he'd bite them if they went near his ears.
> 
> Then we have the clients with what I can see could be 'real' working dogs. They are what y'all are describing when you tell us about how they should be. They have energy, but it lacks the uncontrolled, neurotic edge. The owners have done training and they have appropriate 'tack' for the dog to keep it in check. We may still have to muzzle them, but they don't alligator roll or act a fool when we do.
> 
> I think too many 'breeders' try and try to produce lines that are just showy, hyper idiots. They'd have no place on a police force because they'd be a liability and wouldn't succeed in trials because they'd have the attention span of a sparrow. When I worked for my mentor in her kennel she had two hyper idiots, and they were a pain in my hind end every single day. You'd run them out, play ball for an hour, and still have to 'catch' them to bring them inside. Wouldn't listen, had no respect, just go go go go go. They were working line dogs.
> 
> So my PERSONAL experience with 'working dogs' has been heavily weighted to the negative. I need to find more venues with responsible working dogs to meet better examples of the lines that produce higher drive dogs. That's where I'm coming from.


LOL. Milla and Ninja are not that nutty. They do not need to be muzzled at the vet. They do come when called. Both of them came close to knocking me out at one time or another out of sheer exhuberance. They can be a pain with relation to my other girls, but compared to the examples you have, they probably would be an awesome change.


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## carmspack

of course there is a "market" . That is one of the problems with this popular breed. The market is too easy . Anyone can breed . You see this many a time when a breed is featured in a movie or TV show and the demand spikes , anything that looks remotely like that animal is bred and pups sold without any concerns about the being self assured , or biddable or dependable - standards of character. We've seen breeds surge in popularity then take a dive . The GSD , thanks to Rin-Tin-Tin and Bullet , then Lassie , then in the early 80's the Dobermann , then a decade later the Rottweiler when , what was it , The Omen ? featured them .
Actually speaking of Rottweilers in the early 80's when I was competing in obedience I got my first look at this breed. At that time there were only a handful of breeders and the Rottweiler was a rare sight . I was contacted by one of the early breeders -- dogs offered for free for me because I would do my best by them and show case them . I took a serious look -- ended up helping fine tune some dogs for competition . At that time there was a "union" of Rottweiler breeders that wanted to restrict breeding , keep the breed to a select group , NOT drive it into popularity -- price for a pup $5,000 - in say 1979 , that was a lot of money. 
Well that scheme did not work and by the late 80's Rottweilers had a strong presence on the street .
Big deviation of some of the dogs I had been lucky to have seen in the early days. Dogs with "pig" bodies. Others that looked houndy , or too fine , looking more like Dobermann. By 2000 Rottweilers were making bad press -- bites, fatal bites, dog fights -- . Now ? rarely see one . Hope this signals that some sense and control is back in the picture.
The breeder should have a vision of what is correct .

Believe it or not there are inquiries about "mini" GSD more suitable to urban apartment or condo living . Should someone exploit this market niche ?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh I'm with you on that. That's what I'm preaching to the pittie people too, stop making your breed sound like the 'perfect' nanny dog ( :crazy: ) the best thing that could happen to pitties is for them to become less known, less popular and less in demand.....


I cringed when I saw a GSD on the movie "I am Legend" and that alpha dog show too.....I started a thread on that. I've heard about the 'mini GSD' too.



However as with everything in life there is no such a thing as a perfect system. There will always be people who exploit the market in less then ethical ways. Still, as in your examples the market eventually self corrects too, as with the Dobies and Rotties the trend will pass. 


So the other side of this coin would be some sort of stricter control (_regulations_) on what types of dogs are bred, how many may be bred and who may buy them? Who get's to be the arbiter of these decisions and will this person/group still not cater to what they 'feel' is the 'real' dog of said breed? 


Which poison is the least? On the one hand people end up with dogs that aren't healthy or poor temperament, puppy mills too then on the other hand what if 'the breed managers' decide that ONLY showlines are allowed to represent the 'real' breed, or only Czech working lines? I think that's equally problematic.


I think the best way to go is to educate people and I also think that people are becoming far more educated thanks to the internet, shows like Dogs 101 and sites like this. Granted (like myself but I'm learning) the knowledge has gaps but big picture we're seeing more awareness. 


On the positive side what I see is there is a dog for just about everyone, every need. Tim Connell said there are still breeders providing good dogs for LE, there are breeders more focused on SAR and breeders who are providing Goldens with GSD coats for the companion only market. No one is really being left out.


I just think the reality is we humans don't *need* dogs the way our ancestors did. Just as we don't *need* horses the way our great grandparents did.


So I think that this fighting the tide is counter productive really.

You keep doing what you are doing. You have a following and a reputation that appeals to a segment of the market, showline folks (and many of them are producing nice moderate dogs) are filling another segment and so on.

I think we should focus on educating regarding baseline good breeding practices (obvious puppy millers) encourage better breeding practices and tell people what to watch out for. 


BTW- I called a BYB a couple of weeks ago (doesn't show, no working or sport titles at all, doesn't check hips and at least one breeding female isn't even registereable with the AKC). I acted interested but really was engaging him in a conversation about the breed. I didn't condemn, I was polite and tried to plant a seed of doubt in him. I don't know if I did, but that's all I can do....because what he's doing is not against the law and that's the price we pay to not have someone telling us what kind of dogs we can breed and own. 






carmspack said:


> of course there is a "market" . That is one of the problems with this popular breed. The market is too easy . Anyone can breed . You see this many a time when a breed is featured in a movie or TV show and the demand spikes , anything that looks remotely like that animal is bred and pups sold without any concerns about the being self assured , or biddable or dependable - standards of character. We've seen breeds surge in popularity then take a dive . The GSD , thanks to Rin-Tin-Tin and Bullet , then Lassie , then in the early 80's the Dobermann , then a decade later the Rottweiler when , what was it , The Omen ? featured them .
> Actually speaking of Rottweilers in the early 80's when I was competing in obedience I got my first look at this breed. At that time there were only a handful of breeders and the Rottweiler was a rare sight . I was contacted by one of the early breeders -- dogs offered for free for me because I would do my best by them and show case them . I took a serious look -- ended up helping fine tune some dogs for competition . At that time there was a "union" of Rottweiler breeders that wanted to restrict breeding , keep the breed to a select group , NOT drive it into popularity -- price for a pup $5,000 - in say 1979 , that was a lot of money.
> Well that scheme did not work and by the late 80's Rottweilers had a strong presence on the street .
> Big deviation of some of the dogs I had been lucky to have seen in the early days. Dogs with "pig" bodies. Others that looked houndy , or too fine , looking more like Dobermann. By 2000 Rottweilers were making bad press -- bites, fatal bites, dog fights -- . Now ? rarely see one . Hope this signals that some sense and control is back in the picture.
> The breeder should have a vision of what is correct .
> 
> Believe it or not there are inquiries about "mini" GSD more suitable to urban apartment or condo living . Should someone exploit this market niche ?


----------



## Blanketback

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I didn't condemn, I was polite and tried to plant a seed of doubt in him. I don't know if I did, but that's all I can do....because what he's doing is not against the law and that's the price we pay to not have someone telling us what kind of dogs we can breed and own.


I agree, the last thing we want is to see our breed regulated to the point that only LE can own them. Is that selfish of me? I don't think so. These dogs make awesome companions - in fact, I wouldn't own any other breed. 

I think your idea of subtle persuasion is a good one too. Just last week I had a friend tell me she was getting a labradoodle from her neighbor's female once she was bred. Instead of telling why it was a bad idea, I only mentioned that naturally since the breeding was planned, then the regular health checks would be attended to. Lol, of course not, and it changed the potential purchaser's mind. Maybe if enough people say no to taking a puppy, then this breeding won't take place.


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## Anubis_Star

The more this thread goes on and the more the OP answers, the more I think they REALLY need to learn before even considering breeding.

If you dont know lines and types and drives and pedigrees, you don't know the breed and have no business dabbling in the creation of more "german shepherd dogs", which I say loosely because if you're only creating a GSD in looks what are you REALLY creating?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cliffson1

I agree with you Gwynhwyfair in that more regulations are not the answer. I say let everyone do what they think is best and over time the cream will rise to the top. Their are types of dogs that very few people want these days, this is not because Cliff or Carmen,or Lee has said they are good or bad, it is because of what they have become left to their own breeding devices. I see 10x more sable WL dogs today than say twenty years ago, it's not because of what any one individual says, but more because people are seeing nice dogs that represent their idea of what a GS should be. There are no perfect dogs or lines, and there is good and bad in all lines, but there are lines that are growing and others that are declining....and in that I think cream rises to top over time and less than stellar slides into oblivion in time much like the Alsation. So there's no right or wrong, breed what you like, but I think over time it sorts out to some degree.


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## marbury

This thread is no longer about me in any way, Anubis_star. I've tried to bend over backwards to try and give this forum as much credibility as I could. I took all my convictions and said "well, since I'm here to learn... let's just do it right". So instead of trying to do what I thought was right, I decided to let the experiences of others help me learn. I chose to wipe the slate clean and try to put myself in everyone's shoes to be the best possible breeder that I could. That hasn't really worked.

I realized that there is no way to please everybody. I'm not out to please everybody. No breeder is perfect, and every breeder starts somewhere.

No breeder bashing. I want to be a breeder. Ergo, let's let this die. When I start my lines I certainly won't be yelling it from a mountain top here. I'll let my dogs speak in the ring and in their titles and achievements, and in the way they are ambassadors of their breed among my community. One day people on here may post pretty pictures of dogs that came from me. One day y'all could be talking about the next best 'whatever' dog, and it might come from me. One day you might be helping a new forum-goer who wants to get started in showing with their dog that came from me. I tried to be humble and call my breeding goals 'lofty' because I knew someone would immediately come and say NO DOG IS PERFECT YOU'LL NEVER MAKE A PERFECT DOG, so I put that disclaimer in. So instead y'all say that I shouldn't consider them lofty goals and that I'm irresponsible or something for thinking it wasn't possible. Oy, tough crowd!

Things I've learned: 
- There's a gigantic disparity between what people *want* to see and what is *actually possible* in the world of dog breeding.
- There's no point in trying to 'convince' anyone that what you want to do or are doing is right, because someone will inevitably say it's wrong on this forum.
- Hypocrisy is live and well, and that's OK. It's just like parenting; we preach more than we teach. That's life.
- There are no absolutes in dog breeding in any way. I would be condemned left and right if I didn't health test my dogs, yet a number of the 'greats' on this board don't seem to health test; and that's ok. I would be slammed if I bred a dog with no titles or anything, but lots of folks have no titles on either end of their dogs and breed just fine.
I'm done with this thread. I say that not in an angry or dismissive way, it's just served its use to me. I have learned a lot (and not all of it from the teachings y'all have shared) and I got the support I needed when I needed it.

If you guys want to keep discussing things that's totally fine, but just realize that it's not about me any more. It's about an ideal breeder that cannot possibly exist, and we can debate that in circles until everyone's little fingers fall off their keyboards. I'm game to watch, and I'll probably chime in. But let's just stop pretending that this has anything to do with me losing a breeding bitch to a genetic disorder and call a spade a spade.

Thank you for all your help and advice, it's been more helpful than you can imagine!


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## cliffson1

I understand your frustration Marbury, walk away from this thread, take what makes sense and forget the rest. At the end of the day, if you are breeding good dogs then they will speak for you, and if you repeatedly have to make excuses for your dogs, have then returned, more than normal health issues that are the owners fault.....you probably shouldn't be breeding. Get out their and train and learn about this breed, find yourself a mentor that is positive and productive. Some of the most negative people I have ever met were in the dog world, don't get frustrated, remember some of the experts on forum are self appointed. Take care!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, it usually ends up sorting itself out! I don't see that many WGSLs around here but part of that may be due to price and the fact that a lot of people aren't aware of their existence. I see mostly 'pet lines' around here....having said that in blue, I agree, working lines are becoming more common.

However, _be careful what you wish for_ as I'm seeing more of them in shelters and rescues too. It's never good for any breed (line) to become a fad either.

Sometimes (a lot of times?) people think they're getting 'straight back' HD proof dogs in the WLs and end up with more dog then they can handle. Just chatted with a friend who is trying to find a suitable home for a WL.

Also seeing more WL BYBs. The guy I talked to who is a BYB is using a WL male with ASL/pet line females. My trainer bumped into a guy who said his puppies are working line, black, but he couldn't tell anything about the pedigrees. 

Not a good thing for the GSD in general or WLs specifically IMO.





cliffson1 said:


> I agree with you Gwynhwyfair in that more regulations are not the answer. I say let everyone do what they think is best and over time the cream will rise to the top. Their are types of dogs that very few people want these days, this is not because Cliff or Carmen,or Lee has said they are good or bad, it is because of what they have become left to their own breeding devices. I see 10x more sable WL dogs today than say twenty years ago, it's not because of what any one individual says, but more because people are seeing nice dogs that represent their idea of what a GS should be. There are no perfect dogs or lines, and there is good and bad in all lines, but there are lines that are growing and others that are declining....and in that I think cream rises to top over time and less than stellar slides into oblivion in time much like the Alsation. So there's no right or wrong, breed what you like, but I think over time it sorts out to some degree.


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## Gwenhwyfair

So I'm not the only who was pondering that....

I recall watching a show with a police k-9 officer being interviewed many years ago. I remember he said something along the lines of "The German Shepherd is not #1 at any one task but is #2 at all of them".

The trend I see is toward extreme specialization and at some point dogs aren't going to be able to realistically keep up with our demands.

I predict that eventually dogs won't be used for LE or Military as robotics, nano technology and artificial intelligence improve. Helicopters with more advanced FLIR/Night vision tech replacing SAR in many instances. 

In the medical area scientists were examining how dogs can detect the smell of certain diseases like cancer. However, their goal was not to train more dogs but apply their studies to create medical technology that could mimic the dog's abilities.

Many farmers don't use dogs (or horses) to round up livestock. They use ATVs and other motorized vehicles.

It's reasonable to extrapolate from this that in the future the only role the dog will serve is as a companion(?) Time will tell.



Blanketback said:


> I agree, the last thing we want is to see our breed regulated to the point that only LE can own them. Is that selfish of me? I don't think so. These dogs make awesome companions - in fact, I wouldn't own any other breed.
> 
> I think your idea of subtle persuasion is a good one too. Just last week I had a friend tell me she was getting a labradoodle from her neighbor's female once she was bred. Instead of telling why it was a bad idea, I only mentioned that naturally since the breeding was planned, then the regular health checks would be attended to. Lol, of course not, and it changed the potential purchaser's mind. Maybe if enough people say no to taking a puppy, then this breeding won't take place.


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## DaniFani

I have pretty much stayed out of this thread due to the fact that SO many have been giving great advice and insight. I just thought, after reading through to about page 11/12, that I might offer the OP some opinions by a mainly "pet" friendly home, who is dabbling and getting more and more involved in SchH and Rally. 

OP you mentioned your "lofty" goals, to be honest, imo they are no where near lofty enough. From what I have gathered from your responses, you seem to be pretty well-versed in conformation. That's about where I see the end of your knowledge. You're flippant disregard for "drivey-sports-dogs" and not caring nor wanting any of that in your lines is where I am left confused. You claim a deep knowledge of the breed(and sorry I don't count the years of 5 years old-17 years old) and what it's "supposed to be," yet you disregard the area's it was bred to flourish in. AKC, agility, rally/obedience, etc...those should come fairly easy to any "well" bred breed of dog(bred for show or sport), and even a lot of shelter/not stellar genetics, dogs...imo. And your goals can be met by a lot of dogs in your local animal shelter.

I really encourage you to be a little more open-minded about the "drivey-sport dogs." SchH was, after all, CREATED to test the drive and nerve of the GSD. So ANY GSD bred, in my opinion, should be balanced enough to flourish a bit in the sport. They were/are supposed to be, after all, utility dogs, as I'm sure you know.

Please don't think I am twisting your words. I am just someone on the internet, who initially thought you were maybe on the right path, but then when I read further these are the conclusions I came to. As a breeder, you better be ready to take other's opinions, especially those looking for a pup. Their opinions matter. Breeding a "pet" that the whole family loves and can do some obedience/basic stuff with, is, too me, the most baseline of goals. It's all about balance, balance, balance....get out and visit some SchH clubs, your local police K9 handlers/trainers, some *good, protection trainers, and maybe some working GSDs (a dog that actually herds sheep, SAR, Seeing Eye). Lofty goals would be, "I want to breed dogs that can do ALL of these things, that are balanced enough to do EVERYTHING." Not just be happy with their family and be able to do some of the less challenging sports/jobs, FOR GSDs.... (NOT saying those sports don't take a lot of work, just that most dogs, of any breed, should be able to succeed a bit in them. And someone breeding GSDs, in MY opinion, should be able to show their dog's flourishing in the utility work MEANT for GSDs....K9, SAR, Protection, SchH, etc...)...being a family dog is kind of a "duh" in my book. 

I am just being a bit harsh because your words remind me SO much of my dog's "breeder." She talked all about "Old, True, GSDs," great with kids, could be therapy dog, wary of strangers, etc...and I have a dog that has a heart murmur that went from below a 1 to a 3.5 in two months...he will probably leave this world in the next few months, is nervy(not terribly, but NOT as stable as a GSD should be, and the breeder THINKS she's breeding super stable GSDs), and soft. I love him to death, as all of us with "problem puppies" do, but if I see someone else "thinking" of breeding that reminds me of her....well I can't help but speak up....

Get around some BALANCED shepherds....balance is what EVERY breeder should be striving for. When I read your responses I see a lot about conformation, "I want people on the street to say, THAT is a GSD", romantic ideals for being "wary" of strangers...NOT what I want, GSD is supposed to be aloof, not wary....and can take running into a table head-on and recovering?? lol...I just don't see anything about utility and balance (loyal, HAS drive, hardness, good conformation, on/off switch, clear in the head, able to perform well in MULTIPLE arenas...ie utility...etc...).

All that being said, I agree with Cliff's most recent post. It is true on so many levels, even outside of breeding....training specifically comes to mind. People are going to breed/train how they want to...but the proof is in the pudding. The "successful" dogs/handlers/trainers will prove the methods, multiple times over, in both training and breeding, and everything else debatable lol.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

DaniFani said:


> ...and I have a dog that has a heart murmur that went from below a 1 to a 3.5 in two months...he will probably leave this world in the next few months....


Have you posted in the health section about this dog? 

I know there are a lot of heart murmur people/dogs on this forum who have had their dogs for a long time.


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## marbury

I thought this would be the perfect place for an awesome heartwarming story from my day at work! We have a client that has 18 breeding female GSDs and one male 'stud'. We've spoken on occasion about his dogs because he's seen my vehicle (decked out with GSD stuff) in the parking lot. The only reason he is a client is for emergencies, severe worm issues in his litters, and rabies shots. He has no other treatments done by a vet. Last time we spoke he asked about line breeding, because at that point all his females were related to his 'stud'. He wanted to breed back. I asked him how their health testing was, and he replied that he'd 'never had any hip issues, not a one'.
Today an old bitch of his came in because she'd delivered six pups that were either stillborn or immediately died or were killed and eaten by other dogs in the yard. She wasn't acting right. We hospitalized her and did full x-rays. She had no more puppies, but we found significant masses in her abdomen and got her hips on the x-ray. She has no sockets and both ball joints were so mangled that they were just stubs; one sat on top of the socket on the VD view (tummy up on the x-ray table) and the other was squished up only a half inch below the crest of the pelvis. She was walking fine.

I was so upset. The dog was euthanized because her liver and kidneys had shut down and our doctor suspected she was positive for lepto anyway. But she'd already had seven litters of puppies. So this single person produced, assuming an average litter size of 6 surviving long enough to be sold, forty two puppies from this bitch. That's forty two german shepherds out there in the world sold with full AKC registration whose dam has cancerous tumors on the entire length of her intestines AND the worst set of hips our office had ever actually dealt with.

So that's my heartwarming story! I had to share.


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## PupperLove

That is really sad. I would have been so upset, idk if I would have been able to contain myself being face to face with that man. The human equivalent to garbage.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That's what I mean about educating people and reducing demand to put breeders like this out of business.

I get that some would want different drives, more of this temperament, less of that degree in angulation...and such..in the serious show/sport world....

but when you read stories like this it puts it into perspective.

dang..... 





marbury said:


> I thought this would be the perfect place for an awesome heartwarming story from my day at work! We have a client that has 18 breeding female GSDs and one male 'stud'. We've spoken on occasion about his dogs because he's seen my vehicle (decked out with GSD stuff) in the parking lot. The only reason he is a client is for emergencies, severe worm issues in his litters, and rabies shots. He has no other treatments done by a vet. Last time we spoke he asked about line breeding, because at that point all his females were related to his 'stud'. He wanted to breed back. I asked him how their health testing was, and he replied that he'd 'never had any hip issues, not a one'.
> Today an old bitch of his came in because she'd delivered six pups that were either stillborn or immediately died or were killed and eaten by other dogs in the yard. She wasn't acting right. We hospitalized her and did full x-rays. She had no more puppies, but we found significant masses in her abdomen and got her hips on the x-ray. She has no sockets and both ball joints were so mangled that they were just stubs; one sat on top of the socket on the VD view (tummy up on the x-ray table) and the other was squished up only a half inch below the crest of the pelvis. She was walking fine.
> 
> I was so upset. The dog was euthanized because her liver and kidneys had shut down and our doctor suspected she was positive for lepto anyway. But she'd already had seven litters of puppies. So this single person produced, assuming an average litter size of 6 surviving long enough to be sold, forty two puppies from this bitch. That's forty two german shepherds out there in the world sold with full AKC registration whose dam has cancerous tumors on the entire length of her intestines AND the worst set of hips our office had ever actually dealt with.
> 
> So that's my heartwarming story! I had to share.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The trend I see is toward extreme specialization and at some point dogs aren't going to be able to realistically keep up with our demands.
> 
> It's reasonable to extrapolate from this that in the future the only role the dog will serve is as a companion(?) Time will tell.


Yes, I think that's probably true, although hopefully a long way off.

Cost and reliability are huge considerations for any institutional user. Right now, dogs are cheaper (sometimes a LOT cheaper, sometimes only a little) and more reliable than the alternatives. As that changes, their use will decrease and eventually probably stop. I don't have figures to support my guess, but my suspicion is that police and military use of dogs is way down numerically, and way up in terms of training/demands on the animal, from what it was fifty or a hundred years ago.

At the same time, the "companion" side shouldn't be discounted. We're seeing a lot more use of dogs in PTSD therapy, autism support, etc., and the need for that only seems to be growing. I don't see _that_ role for working dogs evaporating in the foreseeable future.


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## Merciel

marbury said:


> So that's my heartwarming story! I had to share.




I'm so sorry.

My rescue gets a lot of dogs that come up from your general area. The ones we get typically aren't the old breeding dogs, but the former puppies that get dumped when they're 6+ months old and getting rowdy and the owners can't or don't want to invest any more time in them. Even at that age, sometimes it's not pretty.

And yes, it really does put your breeding plans into perspective.


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## cliffson1

The use of police patrol and nose dogs has increased significantly in past 10 years in local and state governments.


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## Merciel

cliffson1 said:


> The use of police patrol and nose dogs has increased significantly in past 10 years in local and state governments.


Huh, that's good to know.

Follow-up question: does that encourage "better" breeding (and how would that be defined in this context?), less, or is it kind of a wash?

It seems to me (guessing -- I don't know!) that the demands placed on current police dogs are pretty intense and would require a dog with a strong body, clear head, and good judgment. And obviously police departments want the best dogs they can get, since the stakes are about as high as they can be. So if more of those dogs are in demand, does that push the cultural needle in any measurable direction? Or are they relying on spayed/neutered import dogs with little/no impact on domestic programs?


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## carmspack

dogs can operate in terrains and conditions that "machines" or alternatives can not. Plus they are pretty mobile ! Plus dogs are able to be versatile and switch function , so they can go from making a find (detection) to making an apprehension . You have a partner who can work for you and with you - make decisions on its own .

there are other new opportunities for work - especially in detection - including bedbug, customs for contraband.

so I do agree with Cliff there is an increase in needs for a sophisticated dog .


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## cliffson1

I said the increase in use of dogs by local and state gov has increased, I DIDNOT say the increase of German Shepherds for police work has increased. So if the GS breeders turn the dog into fluffy the pet, dogs will still assist LE in their work.


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## Merciel

Oh, I see, I missed that the first time around. Sorry about that.

Is the increase mostly Mals, then? So no (direct) impact on GSDs here?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh I wasn't discounting the role of companion? I just was stating what IMHO the future may hold given the trends in technology.

Heck anyone who remembers the TRS-80 and now has a smart phone knows that tech is evolving faster then we can manage it. The computing power of a smart phone used to require room size main frames not so long ago. Some surgeries are being performed robotically. Human jobs have been replaced by robotics. Nano tech *probably* is already in use in the military. I think because I was, in the not too distant past, working in tech and supporting military applications I may have wee bit more of a window...not saying I know all but you know the military is usually the cutting edge first, then the applications go civilian.

Therefore there's no significant reason to NOT see the curve bend with the utilitarian use of dogs, when is the question. I don't know what the stats are for dogs being used in military or LE venues but either way the trends are already there in the military and LE towards increasing use of technology right?. The 'curve' on this, btw, usually starts bending where civilians (including civilian LE) can't see it...at first.

Again, just look to the use of horses for an example. People thought horses would never be replaced on the farm and as transportation, until the steam engine and then the internal combustion engine came along.....




Merciel said:


> Yes, I think that's probably true, although hopefully a long way off.
> 
> Cost and reliability are huge considerations for any institutional user. Right now, dogs are cheaper (sometimes a LOT cheaper, sometimes only a little) and more reliable than the alternatives. As that changes, their use will decrease and eventually probably stop. I don't have figures to support my guess, but my suspicion is that police and military use of dogs is way down numerically, and way up in terms of training/demands on the animal, from what it was fifty or a hundred years ago.
> 
> At the same time, the "companion" side shouldn't be discounted. We're seeing a lot more use of dogs in PTSD therapy, autism support, etc., and the need for that only seems to be growing. I don't see _that_ role for working dogs evaporating in the foreseeable future.


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## cliffson1

But for the here and now, dogs are a big part of the military/LE community.


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## selzer

In all the years of robotics, they have still not produced anything as functional and versatile as the human hand. Oh, they can substitue machinery for hands on, but they cannot take that machinery and use it within seconds to do another type of task, and another, and another.

The point is that the dog is a versatile creature with incredible talents that are going to be used for years to come. If they can create a sensor that will detect bombs/land mines as well as dogs do, then all the better. But I really don't think we need worry that dogs will no longer be used in working capacities. 

One of the things they still use horses for is crowd control. Crowds simply don't want to get too close to the mounties' horses. I think there are things that no guns or tasers or sensors can do as well as our pointy ear'd, teeth weilding friends, like dealing with people who are mentally ill when they clash with law enforcement.


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## Gwenhwyfair

in blue - I used to think the same way but I've changed my mind. The reason I've changed my mind is due to the 'snow ball' effect if you will. As our technology gets better it further enables us to improve technology even more and faster. So it's an exponential type of increase.

When I was watching the show about the dogs detecting disease I thought the end result would be the scientists were going to refine and train more dogs. When they stated during interviews that was NOT the end goal, the goal was to learn how the dog's olfactory system works to mimic that in medical tech, well I was surprised. However, I don't let my surprise become disbelief.....

Yes they do use horses for crowd control. I also have seen videos of people striking the horses with objects and throwing stones at them (hence the modern use of face shields on the horses). There's a psychological impact there for sure (size of the animal and with dogs predatory animal) and that will remain for some time but eventually they probably will use horses less and less too. 

It's not going to happen overnight but I don't think what I predict is out of the realm of possibility given the leaps and bounds tech has taken in just the last 30 years or so.

I think the other question is, is it really a bad thing if we no longer have to put animals in harm's way?






selzer said:


> In all the years of robotics, they have still not produced anything as functional and versatile as the human hand. Oh, they can substitue machinery for hands on, but they cannot take that machinery and use it within seconds to do another type of task, and another, and another.
> 
> The point is that the dog is a versatile creature with incredible talents that are going to be used for years to come. If they can create a sensor that will detect bombs/land mines as well as dogs do, then all the better. But I really don't think we need worry that dogs will no longer be used in working capacities.
> 
> One of the things they still use horses for is crowd control. Crowds simply don't want to get too close to the mounties' horses. I think there are things that no guns or tasers or sensors can do as well as our pointy ear'd, teeth weilding friends, like dealing with people who are mentally ill when they clash with law enforcement.


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## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think the other question is, is it really a bad thing if we no longer have to put animals in harm's way?


Yeah...I remember that one story about the guy holed up in a room and they sent a dog in (after giving warning) and the guy just aimed the gun low at the door and shot the dog...why not just send in a robot to see where he is? I'm sure we can build something that would take direct hits from a shot gun and still keep ticking.

Although the "pet" market is the big market for our breed. I still believe that breeders should strive to have those exemplary animals that are used in LE and the military. Nice to see actual herding dogs...although that's usually another breed unless the breeder really loves the sport or the shepherd is so in love with the GSD breed that they're just using them.

Even if just one dog out of 10 breedings makes it to that level...it shows the breeder is doing something right and breeding a balanced dog.

I think for many of us...we just don't understand what it takes to be a police dog. Truthfully...I've seen the police department over come a lot of issues with their dogs. Although a trainer doesn't want to have to overcome some simple fear, or a dog that won't just automatically do what's asked of it, there are some excellent trainers out there that will overcome those short comings. I know that the Milwaukee police department currently has a rescued pit bull working as a drug sniffing dog...I'm sure that wasn't the easiest dog to train and I'm assuming there were problems along the way, but the handler still managed to get the dog certified.

From what I've seen from police dogs...they don't look that special. They're just normal, well-balanced, well trained, dogs. If one walked down the street without a jacket on...most wouldn't even realize it. There isn't an over-abundance of drive, there isn't any anxiety to work, they are just balanced dogs with the drive to work but also the ability to turn that off. Problem with them is...they're not flashy...they're not 299 point dogs in Schutzhund, but they're just solid GSDs. But in today's world...flash sells...screaming from the mountaintops that your dogs get 290+ in SchH3 trials sells.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> They're just normal, well-balanced, well trained, dogs. If one walked down the street without a jacket on...most wouldn't even realize it. There isn't an over-abundance of drive, there isn't any anxiety to work, they are just balanced dogs with the drive to work but also the ability to turn that off. Problem with them is...they're not flashy...they're not 299 point dogs in Schutzhund, but they're just solid GSDs. But in today's world...flash sells...screaming from the mountaintops that your dogs get 290+ in SchH3 trials sells.


Here's a dumb but earnest newbie question: why wouldn't a dog like that score high?

I don't mean to pick on you, just this is a sentiment I've seen expressed a couple of times and I would like to understand it better. What are the solid-but-not-flashy dogs losing points on?

Also, does anyone happen to have youtubes or other visual demonstrations that might help me understand what the difference is in a "flashy" vs. solid but not high-scoring routine? Because while I _think_ I know what the difference is (based on what people call a "flashy" performance in other sports), I might well be wrong, and I'd rather have an educated person point it out to me than just guess and assume. 

(sorry, I know that's REALLY off topic, but I think we're at about the point in the discussion where it wanders off in other directions anyway...)


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## Anubis_Star

Merciel said:


> Here's a dumb but earnest newbie question: why wouldn't a dog like that score high?
> 
> I don't mean to pick on you, just this is a sentiment I've seen expressed a couple of times and I would like to understand it better. What are the solid-but-not-flashy dogs losing points on?
> 
> Also, does anyone happen to have youtubes or other visual demonstrations that might help me understand what the difference is in a "flashy" vs. solid but not high-scoring routine? Because while I _think_ I know what the difference is (based on what people call a "flashy" performance in other sports), I might well be wrong, and I'd rather have an educated person point it out to me than just guess and assume.
> 
> (sorry, I know that's REALLY off topic, but I think we're at about the point in the discussion where it wanders off in other directions anyway...)


We started training heel with Berlin yesterday. The trainer told me to reward treats higher above his head to encourage a prance in him. He says Berlin has a natural prance and if thats encouraged he'll really catch eyes on the field.

Personally I almost dont like a dog that is super prancey. I would much rather see a solid calm obedient dog. But schutzhund has become a sport, nothing more. Most schutzhund dogs would NOT make true protection dogs. And like any other sport, flash wins. The high gaited dressage horse isnt going to amount to anything out on a cattle ranch.

I DO think some of these flashy dogs are wrong. And I think there are still judges out there that realize this and judge accordingly, thankfully.

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## Mrs.K

> They're just normal, well-balanced, well trained, dogs. If one walked down the street without a jacket on...most wouldn't even realize it. There isn't an over-abundance of drive, there isn't any anxiety to work, they are just balanced dogs with the drive to work but also the ability to turn that off. Problem with them is...they're not flashy...they're not 299 point dogs in Schutzhund, but they're just solid GSDs. But in today's world...flash sells...screaming from the mountaintops that your dogs get 290+ in SchH3 trials sells.


To be absolutely honest, it is much easier to turn off my super high drive flashy female rather than my other female who is more of a thinker and not as crazy driven and flashy than the other one. 

Just because you have a high drive, flashy dog, doesn't mean they can't be turned off. 

No matter if Schutzhund or Lure Coursing, my flashy, super high drive dog can be almost turned off instantly and lead away without any issues whatsoever and that dog is pure intensity. 

Not all flashy, high driven and intense dogs are crazy and locked in prey.


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## Anubis_Star

I dont know what others feel about this video but I personally really like it. Shows a good difference in drives and what sportier judges may prefer vs other

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYlU4huWSs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

As well I know not all flashy dogs are impossible to turn off, too high drive  I just think when you get to a certain point there's a very fine line of what can be controlled and what can be pushed over the edge with too much drive, especially when potentially dealing with different types of drive.

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## Chris Wild

Very often the "flash" seen in obedience and rewarded in the score is not out of drive, but out of a hectic, frantic type of energy. It is that sort of flash, and reason behind it, that is incorrect for this breed and that compromises overall stability (as well as the dog's ability to turn off and be mentally calm and settled) because it is a factor of less than ideal nerve.

I'm certainly not saying that there is anything wrong with flashy OB or that a dog doing it is faulty or that all flashy performances come from that sort of personality. That certainly isn't the case and the end results are as much due to training as temperament. But this isn't uncommon either, and sadly is becoming more and more common with this breed and dogs bred specifically for sport because the dogs who do have that thinner nerve and nature that is constantly buzzing with energy are often the easiest to train to perform in the manner that brings the highest scores these days.


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## martemchik

Mrs.K said:


> To be absolutely honest, it is much easier to turn off my super high drive flashy female rather than my other female who is more of a thinker and not as crazy driven and flashy than the other one.
> 
> Just because you have a high drive, flashy dog, doesn't mean they can't be turned off.
> 
> No matter if Schutzhund or Lure Coursing, my flashy, super high drive dog can be almost turned off instantly and lead away without any issues whatsoever and that dog is pure intensity.
> 
> Not all flashy, high driven and intense dogs are crazy and locked in prey.


But that can be considered "balanced" because her off-switch balances that out. I'm not saying that a drivey dog can't be a police dog, but IN GENERAL you don't see the same type of crazy-flashy drive in GSD police dogs that you do out on the Schutzhund field. And yes...part of it is training, but I have to believe that part of it is the breeding. I'm also not saying that ALL Schutzhund dogs are "flashy/driven" I'm just saying that a lot of times the flashy dog will take a higher score.

As to the what does flashy mean? The last poster covered it well...its the prancing while healing, its the doing everything extremely accurate and exact. Sharp turns, quick movements, always ready to do the next thing, flying through the air during bite work...anything that would make a spectator go "WOW!"

IMO (just MY opinion) a GSD just carries itself differently than a Malanois. They just look like they're thinking, sizing you up possibly, but just waiting for YOU to make the wrong move. When you watch a Mal, its a lot quicker to act, bite first ask questions later type of attitude, not much thinking...no worries on how big something is or what the correct reaction would be, just exudes a lot more energy. Now...I'm not saying that Malanois just bite everything in their way...of course they don't. They are very good pets and act a lot like GSDs...but I'm just talking about the way the dog or the breed in general "carries" itself.

Malanois are flashy...and when they started getting the higher scores and beating GSDs in Schutzhund trials...some breeders started breeding dogs and some handlers started looking for dogs that would act more like a Mal in order to compete on that high level but in a GSD (larger/more powerful) body.

Now...I'm in no way an expert on either LE or Schutzhund. I've been to trials, I haven't trained, but I've seen what I've described. I've seen presentations by the police department with their K9s, I currently live down the street from my city's K9 officer. The overall energy you get from the two types of dogs is different...but that's not saying that I haven't gotten the LE energy from a Schutzhund dog either...because plenty have that type of "balanced" temperament that I would look for in a dog.


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## lhczth

While a low drive slug that totally lacks work ethic is never going to be flashy in obedience, flash is, for the most part, due to training and the skill of the trainer/handler. My flashiest OB dogs have not been crazy drive dogs. They have been biddable dogs that want to work with me. My drivier dogs, though, tend to show more power in their work. They are pushy and fast, but I have found them far harder to get the flash and precision needed for high scores.


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## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> While a low drive slug that totally lacks work ethic is never going to be flashy in obedience, flash is, for the most part, due to training and the skill of the trainer/handler. My flashiest OB dogs have not been crazy drive dogs. They have been biddable dogs that want to work with me. My drivier dogs, though, tend to show more power in their work. They are pushy and fast, but I have found them far harder to get the flash and precision needed for high scores.


That's what I love about my female. She's fast, pushy and flashy. She's got the flash built into her without being hectic. She's got tons of energy but can be turned off instantly and walked off the field. 

The lower drive dog, however, is a bit tougher, a thinker and can be a bit nervy (teeth chattering). I'm not skilled enough to make her look flashy and I am not a fast walker or have a large stride to get her to dance. Marcus had taken over her once and oh my gosh, she was dancing because he's much faster, has a longer stride and confidence and competence than I have. 

My other female even looks flashy with me and I can't possibly imagine, what a skilled handler could pull out of that dog and I know, if my Dad was still in the sport and breeding, I wouldn't have ever gotten near her. She's the real deal but she's also got the built in flash.


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## Andaka

Part of the "prance" is also conformation. The dogs with a straighter, more open shoulder have an easier time prancing while heeling than the more correct shoulder.


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## lhczth

Daphne, agree. 

IMO a lot of the current trend in obedience is due to the changes in training methods too. When I started in OB the only methods were jerk and praise. We needed hard compliant dogs. Pryor/Skinner didn't become well known until the mid 80's and even then it took the AKC people awhile to fully conform. The SchH people took another almost 15 years to start to look at all four areas of OC training. Now many people follow and emanate the methods of Mal trainers/handlers. People want their GSD to conform to those methods, look like the Mals despite being a very different breed (both in temperament and structure). IMO it is the training that has changed. The types of dogs chosen to work and then the judging eventually followed the trend. I also believe the methods of training have made it easier for weaker dogs to be titled. No conflict, no stress, no real testing.


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## martemchik

And lets be serious...that prance that is expected in Schutzhund...is not how you would walk with a dog on the street. It's not even how a guard/police officer/soldier would want a dog to walk with them. You'd want the dog looking out, seeing potential threats, not 1000% focused on the handler's face.

At least in AKC you can't really lose points if your dog isn't prancing...sure it helps if the dog looks happy and wants to walk, and you might actually lose points if they're in front of you (I believe how the heel position is judged is different in the two venues) or you have to kick the dog out of your way. Although more and more you're seeing that type of heeling in the AKC ring as well as people are crossing over and like Lisa mentioned the training methods are changing.

So there's a large reason as to why the "flashy" dog is getting bred. You get rewarded in Schutzhund when you have flash. In AKC...there isn't a reward and there isn't a penalty. As long as the dog is in heel, its in heel.


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## Mrs.K

That's why it's commonly called a "Circus Show" 
I think some flash is okay. But not all dogs will be capable of presenting the wanted flash or happy tail wagging, some dogs are more concentrated and look more serious and won't have that happy tail wag. 
I wouldn't want a dog that heels on three legs because of "flash" or is constantly bouncing on his hooks because of "flash". I'd prefer a correct heeling dog over all that flash anytime.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Dressage horses are not 'high gaited' per se like the Saddlebreds or some of the big lick walking horses......

Interesting comparison though as dressage started as a discipline to train horses to be obedient and agile in war, not herding cattle. A war mount had to be absolutely reliable and dependable. While the standard competition dressage no longer performs the 'airs above ground' (levade or capriole or courbette) which really were intended originally as movements that turned the horse into a lethal weapon against ground soldiers, the core of dressage was preparation of the war horse.

Thanks to tanks, bombs, fighter planes, HWWMVs horses aren't needed (nor effective) for war and indeed, dressage is just a sport, albeit an absolutely beautiful sport which showcases a level of OB and communication between horse and rider that most average horse owners would not be able to conceive of, much less commit to the level of discipline and training required. 

Much like a well performed SchH test. 

So just because the discipline isn't directly associated with the original intent it doesn't take away from it's value and I don't think being a 'flashy' SchH dog necessarily = *most* unable to do protection either. Everytime I would hear and repeat general comments like that- sure enough someone would come along to prove me wrong. Lesson, don't make too many generalizations as there are so many unique dogs AND trainers out there that they usually don't apply. Just sayin'....




Anubis_Star said:


> We started training heel with Berlin yesterday. The trainer told me to reward treats higher above his head to encourage a prance in him. He says Berlin has a natural prance and if thats encouraged he'll really catch eyes on the field.
> 
> Personally I almost dont like a dog that is super prancey. I would much rather see a solid calm obedient dog. But schutzhund has become a sport, nothing more. Most schutzhund dogs would NOT make true protection dogs. And like any other sport, flash wins. The high gaited dressage horse isnt going to amount to anything out on a cattle ranch.
> 
> I DO think some of these flashy dogs are wrong. And I think there are still judges out there that realize this and judge accordingly, thankfully.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

I agree, pretty much that certain traits can go overboard, but when you've got competition that's all pretty good (no matter the sport/venue) you've gotta have something to stand out, something to give your dog the extra 'ooomph' in the judge's eye. I think this becomes more important/predominant at the higher levels of competition.

In any sport that isn't judged soley by a stop watch it seems like an inherent problem(?) that's going to crop up. Setting oneself apart from the others produces this effect and I don't see how AKC would be *that* much different (or immune) in that regard?



martemchik said:


> And lets be serious...that prance that is expected in Schutzhund...is not how you would walk with a dog on the street. It's not even how a guard/police officer/soldier would want a dog to walk with them. You'd want the dog looking out, seeing potential threats, not 1000% focused on the handler's face.
> 
> At least in AKC you can't really lose points if your dog isn't prancing...sure it helps if the dog looks happy and wants to walk, and you might actually lose points if they're in front of you (I believe how the heel position is judged is different in the two venues) or you have to kick the dog out of your way. Although more and more you're seeing that type of heeling in the AKC ring as well as people are crossing over and like Lisa mentioned the training methods are changing.
> 
> So there's a large reason as to why the "flashy" dog is getting bred. You get rewarded in Schutzhund when you have flash. In AKC...there isn't a reward and there isn't a penalty. As long as the dog is in heel, its in heel.


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## Mrs.K

No venue is immune to it. Not even Flyball, hence the crossbreeding to produce the 'perfect' dog, instead of using what is already out there. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't know much about flyball but isn't that a purely timed event? 

...and yup being a 'jack of all trades' just doesn't seem to cut it anymore in sport OR work (dog nor human....work that is...oh and ask yourself why we haven't had a triple crown winner in how many years, it's the way they are breeding the horses now, immediate speed vs stamina)



Mrs.K said:


> No venue is immune to it. Not even Flyball, hence the crossbreeding to produce the 'perfect' dog, instead of using what is already out there.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lhczth

What scores high points in obedience is a correct dog that shows power, flash and is happy in the work. A correct dog that lacks some flash will also score well as long as the dog is still happy and willing in the work. A flashy dog that lacks power and is not correct will not score well. Judges want to see a happy willing working dog that is engaged with its handler and is also correct.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> As to the what does flashy mean? The last poster covered it well...its the prancing while healing, its *the doing everything extremely accurate and exact.* Sharp turns, quick movements, always ready to do the next thing, flying through the air during bite work...anything that would make a spectator go "WOW!"


Bolded part is almost all training, though. Almost any physically capable dog can do very precise heelwork. Great Danes and Basset Hounds might have trouble just because of their physical size/shape (although I've seen some Bassets turn in pretty good Rally performances and there's at least one OTCH Dane out there, so even that can be done!), but I would not expect there to be any significant difference in GSDs or Mals on that front. The only dog I've ever seen that had major difficulty doing straight Fronts was a severely dysplastic Golden Retriever who just physically couldn't do it because her hips were so bad.

For purposes of all my comments below, I'm talking about AKC/CDSP obedience and World Cynosport/APDT Rally, because those are the sports and venues I know best. I'm trying to figure out how the scoring might be different in Schutzhund.

So:

A faster dog will have an edge in Rally, which might give Mals an edge. And they do have some beautifully quick turns! But I also see a lot of Mals get dinged for wrapping/forging, and speed doesn't do you any good if you don't also have a high score, so there's definitely some downside to a very eager dog.

Prancing heelwork is fun to watch but doesn't make any difference in your score in those venues. What gets graded is precision and, in Rally, speed. Also you get dinged if the dog jumps up in excitement, and that also seems to be an issue with Mals, especially the young ones that I've seen. It's a thin line between a happy prance and bouncing up in excitement, and the latter will cost you points, potentially a lot of points under a tough judge.

I've been watching a lot of the youtubes that people post of doing all kinds of sports with their GSDs on this board (because I'm trying to learn more about how the different lines perform and which might be best for me), and I'm honestly not seeing anything in those dogs that looks less "flashy" to me. In almost all cases, at least the _potential_ is clearly there. There's an energy and a quickness in a lot of these dogs that's really quite remarkable and delightful to watch. Certainly I think they could go as fast as a Mal in an obedience/Rally routine (or, for that matter, a freestyle routine), where a team's top speed is typically limited by the handler rather than the dog. So I'm not seeing much of a competitive disadvantage there, personally.

But Schutzhund scoring is not something I know a great deal about, so that's why I ask. The discussion has been very enlightening, and I'm grateful to everyone who's added their thoughts.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In horses and dressage what conveys the power is engagement (hind quarters) and gives the appearance of a more 'uphill' movement. Being free through the shoulder (or as some may see it, prancing ..and other conformational attributes) to channel that power with balance and elegance (and happiness in it's work as well...). 

Would this be a close approximation of 'power' in OB for SchH too?




lhczth said:


> What scores high points in obedience is a correct dog that shows power, flash and is happy in the work. A correct dog that lacks some flash will also score well as long as the dog is still happy and willing in the work. A flashy dog that lacks power and is not correct will not score well. Judges want to see a happy willing working dog that is engaged with its handler and is also correct.


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## Markobytes

Prancing is generally a by product of conformation, the shoulder angle lifts slightly as the head moves up causing the front legs to lift more than they would if the dog was gaiting. Dogs that do not have enough shoulder angle have to compensate by suspending one leg in mid air and hopping with the other, some dogs will drop their rear to make the front movement more natural. There is a difference between prancing due to conformation and prancing that is more pushing the handler for the reward or just over anticipation for the reward due to training. Unnatural heeling such as prancing is penalized in Schutzhund, now known as IPO. IPO requires focused heeling, if the dog is looking away from the handler it is making decisions for itself and is not trusting the handler to make decisions.
Hugh Wilson also known as Markobytes


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> Bolded part is almost all training, though. Almost any physically capable dog can do very precise heelwork. Great Danes and Basset Hounds might have trouble just because of their physical size/shape (although I've seen some Bassets turn in pretty good Rally performances and there's at least one OTCH Dane out there, so even that can be done!), but I would not expect there to be any significant difference in GSDs or Mals on that front. The only dog I've ever seen that had major difficulty doing straight Fronts was a severely dysplastic Golden Retriever who just physically couldn't do it because her hips were so bad.


I think you're just getting into sport so just wait until you watch a greater variety of dogs. Or train at a place with all dogs with one breed...trust me, its not always just training. Sure, a great trainer can probably take a "middle" dog and get them to be exact and precise...but there are plenty of GSDs out there that can't do exact/quick moves because they aren't driven to do so. No matter how much training you put in them...they just won't do it.

The issue with Rally is that you really don't move for long enough distances to see what a dog does...and never is the dog working very far away from you. It's just a different animal in which precision and speed are necessary but its not the same type of flash I'm talking about when dealing with Schutzhund or even upper level AKC obedience.

Look at it this way...if the dog doesn't want to sprint full speed, NOTHING will make that dog do it on a recall. There are plenty of GSDs out there that do not do things as fast as they can...and no amount of training will bring it out of them.


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## Merciel

It's very true that I haven't seen a lot of GSDs to do side-by-side comparisons of different lines -- that's why I'm so interested in the videos, particularly as I haven't seen many working-line dogs at all. The AKC events around here usually have a good turnout of American show lines, but I hardly see any other types.

I'm gonna stick to my conviction that a sufficiently good trainer can eventually get a crisp, precise performance out of any physically capable dog, though, because I've seen it done many times (and high-level freestyle heeling is a LOT harder and more complicated than the heelwork in any other sport -- that's almost everything there IS in freestyle!). But sure, there's a big difference in how much work it takes to get that level of snappiness out of a Border Collie vs. some random shelter mutt. I _have_ those random shelter mutts, and boy do I ever envy the BC people some days!

My original question was whether there's really that big a difference between a good, solid, clear-headed working GSD and a Mal, though. I'd think the calmer, thinkier dog would be easier to train. And assuming you've got a decent inherent desire to work in the dog, it seems like it shouldn't be impossible to get a rocket recall or a snappy obedience routine out of one. We're not talking about shaky, flighty, or lazy dogs -- just solid GSD vs. solid Mal. I think (or, maybe more accurately, hope/guess) that if the two dogs are both inherently strong working dogs, any difference in point score must surely come from trainer/handler skill.

Or maybe I just tell myself that because I want one of those dogs really badly, and by god I'm not gonna let myself believe that we'll come in second because of it. Because of ME, yes. Because of the dog... I'd like to think no. So... could be a little bit of stubborn pre-emptive willful blindness there.


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## lhczth

Actually, Hugh, prancing, as long as the dog is moving in a fairly natural free way with the back level, is not penalized. It is the unnatural tight, crawling behind type of prancing/heeling that is being penalized. 

This is not faulty. Elena's heeling is rather flashy in person, but it lacks power. 









And neither is this, though she tends to wrap a bit. She is showing power.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Welcome to the board.  ..and as in Marko Haus Juris?



Makobytes said:


> Prancing is generally a by product of conformation, the shoulder angle lifts slightly as the head moves up causing the front legs to lift more than they would if the dog was gaiting. Dogs that do not have enough shoulder angle have to compensate by suspending one leg in mid air and hopping with the other, some dogs will drop their rear to make the front movement more natural. There is a difference between prancing due to conformation and prancing that is more pushing the handler for the reward or just over anticipation for the reward due to training. *Unnatural heeling such as prancing is penalized in Schutzhund*, now known as IPO. IPO requires focused heeling, if the dog is looking away from the handler it is making decisions for itself and is not trusting the handler to make decisions.
> Hugh Wilson also known as Markobytes


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## carmspack

"I'm gonna stick to my conviction that a sufficiently good trainer can eventually get a crisp, precise performance out of any physically capable dog, though"

disagree -- try training a dog that has a submissive melt down , oh so sensitive -- saw too many of them when doing my period as apprentice obedience judge . Some dogs acted like they had heavy chain weights on and were doomed to the gallows.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Nice pics!

I'm trying to grasp the concept of power as it translates to the dog's movement.

Looks to me your dog (yes?) has dropped her rear a bit in the second pic creating a more open and higher step through the front. Is that what produces the power?



lhczth said:


> Actually, Hugh, prancing, as long as the dog is moving in a fairly natural free way with the back level, is not penalized. It is the unnatural tight, crawling behind type of prancing/heeling that is being penalized.
> 
> This is not faulty. Elena's heeling is rather flashy in person, but it lacks power.
> 
> 
> And neither is this, though she tends to wrap a bit. She is showing power.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> "I'm gonna stick to my conviction that a sufficiently good trainer can eventually get a crisp, precise performance out of any physically capable dog, though"
> 
> disagree -- try training a dog that has a submissive melt down , oh so sensitive -- saw too many of them when doing my period as apprentice obedience judge . Some dogs acted like they had heavy chain weights on and were doomed to the gallows.


Yeah I agree with Carmen...I've seen enough dogs that there is just no hope for. Currently there is a dog in my rally class...at 8 months old he wants nothing to do with any type of work. NOTHING will motivate this dog...not food, not play, not praise. He'll follow the handler around and do what's expected...but there is no urgency in any of his movement.


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## Merciel

carmspack said:


> "I'm gonna stick to my conviction that a sufficiently good trainer can eventually get a crisp, precise performance out of any physically capable dog, though"
> 
> disagree -- try training a dog that has a submissive melt down , oh so sensitive -- saw too many of them when doing my period as apprentice obedience judge . Some dogs acted like they had heavy chain weights on and were doomed to the gallows.


I have. My main competition dog is a crazypants fear case. I made a thread about him. We melt down A LOT. 

Pongu is definitely, absolutely limited in what he can do. We're only actively competing in Rally because right now that is the only sport he can handle.

But you know what? In our sport, when Pongu doesn't melt down (which is not always!), I do get that crisp snappy performance. And we _win_.


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> But you know what? In our sport, when Pongu doesn't melt down (which is not always!), I do get that crisp snappy performance. And we _win_.


That's the point...when he's not melting down, he has the drive to be crisp and snappy. There are plenty of dogs out there that DON'T meltdown, but don't have the drive to have a crisp and snappy performance anyways. They just don't care about ANYTHING going on around them or what is expected of them.

Try to find your closest GSD club that trains and is affiliated with GSDCA. You'll get a very wide mix of lines in there and you'll really see the differences in dogs and their ability levels.

I don't suggest doing this at a Schutzhund club as chances are that most dogs will probably be pretty driven...but at a regular training club that focuses on obedience/rally/agility, you'll really get the whole spectrum and realize how much the DOG matters and the handler is just along for the ride.

I think carmen will attest to this...a good, well-balanced dog, is a joy to train. It's not hard, its as if it already knows what to do. Dogs with problems, or with lack of drive/energy, a good, dedicated trainer might be able to bring something out of them, but it will take a lot of work. Dogs with no drive, no motivation...even the best of trainers can't do anything for them.


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## carmspack

the original quote is not mine but Merciel's 
"I'm gonna stick to my conviction that a sufficiently good trainer can eventually get a crisp, precise performance out of any physically capable dog, though, because I've seen it done many times (and high-level freestyle heeling is a LOT harder and more complicated than the heelwork in any other sport -- that's almost "

so I don't understand why you made the comment and then later your dog melts down a lot.

In my experience as Obedience Judge apprentice this super soft temperament , which is totally disabling for a working dog attitude , was pretty common to the American line dogs . They were very pleasant animals , loved and loving , not fearful , but inhibited . The owner standing there face beet red because her dog is doing a belly crawl the last few feet on the recall , makes her look like she is a monster of a trainer -- so far from the case . Kidd glove all the way , by her inclination and out of necessity.


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## Merciel

No, Pongu wasn't (and still isn't) what I think you would call a "drivey" dog. He's not very interested in toys, not very interested in food. I had to build everything. He _is_ really smart, which helps a lot, but to him work has no value except the value that I've built up in it over the years. At this point that's a lot -- he would rather work than do just about anything else -- but man, it took a long time to get there.

I don't have easy competition dogs. I really would love one a few years down the road (don't have time this year because I over-committed on book projects, and I want to see how high I can get Pongu ranked nationally next year, so it won't be for a while). It sounds glorious. A lot of the dumb newbie questions I ask are aimed at trying to find that right dog. 

I've gone to a Schutzhund trial but it probably wasn't a good example for reasons unrelated to the mix of GSD lines that were represented. It was only one trial, though. I need to go to more.


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## Merciel

carmspack said:


> so I don't understand why you made the comment and then later your dog melts down a lot.


Because EVENTUALLY (a really long "eventually"!), I was indeed able to get a crisp and precise performance out of him.

I'm not saying it was easy or that I'd like to do it again. I am never ever going to knowingly get another fearful dog because good LORD it's been a grueling haul.

But, I mean, you _can_ get good competition heelwork out of a crazypants dog. It is a thing that is possible to do in the world. That's the only point I was going for with my previous comment.


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## carmspack

True " think carmen will attest to this...a good, well-balanced dog, is a joy to train. It's not hard, its as if it already knows what to do. Dogs with problems, or with lack of drive/energy, a good, dedicated trainer might be able to bring something out of them, but it will take a lot of work. Dogs with no drive, no motivation...even the best of trainers can't do anything for them."

at best the performance will not be reliable , not dependable. 
GSD are supposed to have some hardness and RESILIENCE . The desire to work is hard wired . Does not mean the dog is wired . Means that it doesn't take a lot of motivation to get the dog to work .


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> No, Pongu wasn't (and still isn't) what I think you would call a "drivey" dog. He's not very interested in toys, not very interested in food. I had to build everything. He _is_ really smart, which helps a lot, but to him work has no value except the value that I've built up in it over the years. At this point that's a lot -- he would rather work than do just about anything else -- but man, it took a long time to get there.


Why do you say that? If he has it in him to win a rally show...he has to have drive. He might not be the driviest dog out there, but he does have something. Trust me...you wouldn't be able to build ALL of the drive, you have to have something to start with. Clearly you're doing something right...and the meltdowns are just a soft temperament (I see he's a mix) and have nothing to do with drive. Sure...he's no Schutzhund dog...but there is still something there. No offense to you as a trainer...but I just can't believe YOU built all of it by yourself lol (take it as a compliment to your dog).

I hate tooting my own horn but I completed the AKC RE title in 9 shows with 9 first place finishes and none under 96 points. I know I have a dog with drive...not as much as some, but way more than others. He clearly has what it takes...and is a very easy dog to train (loves rally). And I compare his work ethic to those dogs I'm helping now...and that ONE dog has NO DRIVE to do anything...its really disappointing because the handler really wants to compete...just got the wrong dog from the wrong lines before she knew what she'd get into.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, I think Merciel is saying that a dog like Pongu shows that some things are 'do-able' with fearful dogs in certain venues (you don't plan on doing ShcH with him right?  ) BUT that is not what she seeks in a dog with her future goals in mind.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Why do you say that?


I guess because maybe I don't really know what people mean when they say "drive." 

I'm still learning the fine points of what people mean by "prey drive" and "pack drive" and so forth. Those aren't terms that are used in any of the venues or training schools I've worked in, so I'm still learning my way around them.

When I compare Pongu to a sport-line BC, working Golden, or Malinois, I don't see that same burning desire to work. I'm _imagining_ (because I haven't met many and don't know!) that a working GSD would also be like those dogs -- hardwired to want to work.

Pongu wasn't like that, and he still really isn't. He's just a scaredybutt pound dog.

I'm sure you're right that he has to have _some_ kind of work ethic to do anything, but I don't think it's remotely comparable to what a good working dog, of any breed, would/should have.


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## Andaka

> I hate tooting my own horn but I completed the AKC RE title in 9 shows with 9 first place finishes and none under 96 points.


And I have gotten 100's ad not placed, so you have to judge your placings against the level of your competition. My dog's biggest handicap is not lack of drive, it is his handler's ability to read. And times are going to get worse because I broke my foot last week and have 7 trials in the next 3 weeks to finish his RAE while we train for his Utility title.


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## martemchik

Andaka said:


> And I have gotten 100's ad not placed, so you have to judge your placings against the level of your competition. My dog's biggest handicap is not lack of drive, it is his handler's ability to read. And times are going to get worse because I broke my foot last week and have 7 trials in the next 3 weeks to finish his RAE while we train for his Utility title.


I feel like I just got backhanded...lol.

I've gotten 100s and placed first...and lets be serious, I know that in an obedience ring I wouldn't have gotten 100, and neither would most of the 100s I've seen out there. Judges get a very dull pencil when in the rally ring. I've been to a show where 30 dogs qualified for RAE legs...and no they weren't all deserving. Like that dog that wanders away from the owner every other sign, or the one that leaves the ring, comes back, and still qualifies. Trust me, I've gone up against good dogs.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yeah, I think Merciel is saying that a dog like Pongu shows that some things are 'do-able' with fearful dogs in certain venues (you don't plan on doing ShcH with him right?  ) BUT that is not what she seeks in a dog with her future goals in mind.


Ahaa no. No Schutzhund for this dog. Pongu would keel over and die of a heart attack the instant a helper looked at him. Wouldn't even have to wave the stick.

It would be very very sad and then I'd get a sane dog. 

But yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. So then the question is, assuming I want to move on to serious competition in multiple sports with a not-insanely-fearful dog, is there any intrinsic reason that a sane, stable working GSD would be at a disadvantage vs., oh, let's say, an Ot Vitosha?

(also: Andaka, good luck!!)


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## Markobytes

Thank you Lisa for posting pictures and giving your honest critique of your dogs heeling. My post was intended to address what I believed to be a mistaken impression that prancing is a requirement of Schutzhund heeling.. My post was admittedly somewhat misleading, although the FCI judges who rewrote the rules last year specifically mentioned prancing was to receive a deduction. I know their intention was to check unnatural heeling as you describe but it did cause a scare when the rule change came out. 
Gwenhwyfair, thank you and yes how did you know?


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