# Two dog sightings.



## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

We went to Costco today and saw a young lab in training to be a service dog. The dog was accompanied by a pair of handlers, was in harness and had a vest with patches. It stayed in a heel and was attentive to the trainers. It was a pleasure to watch it work.

Next we went to our local market. In the produce section, I saw a leashed dog bumbling around next to a woman. The dog was not wearing any vest or patch.
I spoke to the butcher--who is terrified of dogs--and asked him about the dog. He grimaced and said that the dog has peed inside the store. The owner claims that it is an emotional support animal and she needs it for her anxiety. The dog does not perform any tasks.

My husband was livid so I tried to avoid the lady and her dog while we shopped. When we came to the check out, the clerk looked at me and asked me--I thought as a joke--if I'd brought my dog. I said. "NO! I would never bring my dogs into a grocery store. People who pass off pets as service dogs infuriate me." I turned around to check on a price and nearly stepped on the dog's paw. The woman and her dog were in the next checkout! The dog was wandering around at the end of its leash while the lady paid. She picked up the dog and left, she didn't notice that her dog nearly tripped me or that I almost smashed its paw.

Our check out clerk confirmed that the dog has peed in the store and that the owner claims that an emotional support dog is the same as a service 
dog. I don't want to argue legalities. It seems very simple that a dog who is not housebroken should not be representing service or support animals in public food markets. 

The difference between the Costco lab and the market poodle was very clear. The lab was focused and the handlers were engaged. The market poodle was on an outing and the owner was oblivious. The poodle may well be an emotional support animal but I don't want it sniffing the cheeses and piddling on the floor.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Can the store ask that she put a diaper on the dog before entering? I'm not sure what the law is on denying them access.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

you can purchase, vest`s badges and even paper work off the net to be a "service dog", the feds need to crack down on this, I was at the local hospital with Max, in walked a gal with a little, i dont know what it was dog, lunging and barking at Max, the dog had a vest on, I ask the gal what the deal was, she said it was a "service dog" and "was there to make people happy"


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Emotional support dogs are not service dogs and do not have the same rights to public access.
Even a service dog not housebroken can be asked to leave.

People who abuse the rights of disabled people to have a service dog should be publicly humiliated. Just my humble opinion.

ADA Training Requirements


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gagsd said:


> Emotional support dogs are not service dogs and do not have the same rights to public access.
> Even a service dog not housebroken can be asked to leave.
> 
> People who abuse the rights of disabled people to have a service dog should be publicly humiliated. Just my humble opinion.
> ...


^ This. Blehmannwa, you might want to mention that the next time you're at your local market.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I actually did tell the clerk that an emotional support animal is not the same as a service dog and he was going to talk to management about this distinction. People who take advantage of disability law and pass off poorly trained unhousebroken dogs really make me furious.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree with all except Nigel --


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## rgrey (Jul 30, 2013)

I thought a service dog had to be clearly marked (vest, badge, collar, ect) as a service animal, otherwise it could be denied entrance as a pet? 

I had a friend who fostered? trained? started? (can't remember) pups for a service company (I think she had them till 6 months or so and then they went to the official training center, something like that, its been a long time) and we'd take them out to as many places possible to socialize them. They ALWAYS had to wear a vest. The one time we forgot we weren't allowed in anywhere, even though it was a small town, all the shop owners knew us and knew what she did (most knew that particular pup as well since we'd already been there.) They said that they could get in trouble for allowing a "pet" in, since he wasn't marked as a service animal.

That was years ago so maybe things have changed?


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## FirstTimeGSD (Jul 31, 2012)

I work in a grocery store and we have this same issue. Although the law is federal...the only thing our company permits us to do is to approach the customer and simply ask them "excuse me, is that a service dog". If they say yes...that's the end of it. No proof of any kind is required. If they say no, we are supposed to discretely find a store manager and let them know for them to handle. Nine times out of ten, the dog remains in the store.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Staff may ask two questions:
(1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and 
(2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform.

per... Revised ADA Requirements: Service Animals

No vest or harness is required. One may not ask for a task to be demonstrated.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

and another good thing to know: 
A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.

... per ADA


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

You know, the thing about confronting abusers of disability law is that they have to have their heads firmly where the sun don't shine in the first place. There is a huge level of entitlement at work. That is why I didn't engage with the woman directly and I can't really blame the store employees for not confronting the pair.

A local columnist says that if he sees a dog in the market , he'll turn to his child or companion and loudly comment "See that dog! That dog is working!" in an attempt to shame the owner. I don't know how effective that is.

Debbie, Thanks for the ADA attachment. It's a very clear explanation. I'll be printing it up and giving it to market management on Monday. Weekends are a madhouse there.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

And thank you Mary for the further clarifications of the law.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I thought a service dog had to be clearly marked (vest, badge, collar, ect) as a service animal, otherwise it could be denied entrance as a pet?


Incorrect. In America, no signage is required.

The rules of an organization are just that...the rules of an organization. That is not law. Also, laws on SDITs vary from state to state, but the laws for a fully trained SD are different and cannot be compromised


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> A local columnist says that if he sees a dog in the market , he'll turn to his child or companion and loudly comment "See that dog! That dog is working!" in an attempt to shame the owner. I don't know how effective that is.


It's not effective. It's just freakin' rude.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blehmannwa said:


> Debbie, Thanks for the ADA attachment. It's a very clear explanation. I'll be printing it up and giving it to market management on Monday. Weekends are a madhouse there.


I was just quoting Mary's post, she actually provided the link.


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## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

I cannot believe the chutzpah of a pet owner who would pass off a pet as a working SD. That takes a huge amount of pure nerve. According to the ADA the shop owner does have the right in this instance to deny the customer the "Right" to bring this pet into the store. Since the dog is neither under control or properly housebroken. I hate to think of the filth that the poor dog is subject to at home if peeing on the floor of a store is OK. I would hope that there is some penalty for faking a SD with some huge fine attached. That is just sad....

Wheelchair Bob


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

I run into this at work frequently - I'm an ultrasound tech, and people often want their dog with them for an exam. I draw the line at having the dog ON them, although two people have tried that nonsense! It irks me when it's so obvious the dog is a clearly not a true service dog, but whatever, if it helps people and doesn't bother others, I let it go. What I do mind however is leaving the exam room for a moment, and returning to find a patient has gone into my desk, removed my scissors, and is trimming her nasty little dog's butt hairs. No, I'm not exaggerating, and as always, it's the people that take advantage and push the boundaries of reason that ruin it for everybody! Drives me :crazy:

On the other hand, I keep lobbying my boss to let Jedda be the office therapy dog! Not working, maybe I'll get a vest off Amazon and try it that way.


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## JustJim (Sep 6, 2010)

blehmannwa said:


> A local columnist says that if he sees a dog in the market , he'll turn to his child or companion and loudly comment "See that dog! That dog is working!" in an attempt to shame the owner. I don't know how effective that is.


You know, sometimes I read things then have to read it over, or go back to see if it actually said what I thought it said. 

This was one of those times. 

Does this columnist have a name?


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

You know I can't remember who wrote but I don't think that I made it clear that he/she was referring specifically to pets that are being passed off as service dogs--not actual working dogs.

I know that there may be times when a service dog is not readily identifiable as such but there are times when it is very clear that the animal is a pet. The poodle piddling on the end of its leash, the snarly shih tzu, the leaping lab. These are the pet owners that the columnist is talking about. 

I just looked it up and it wasn't the columnist but a commenter who said that. It was in the local alternative paper, "The Stranger."


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## Petite4351 (Jul 27, 2013)

I'm not sure I could keep my mouth shut about this. Service animals deserve the respect that they have gained for doing their job. Any service animals that I have ever seen, are always well behaved and LOOK the part of a helper to the handler (complete with vest and harness). If I were to see something like what was mentioned here, I would be appalled. Especially in a store that sold food items.


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## rgrey (Jul 30, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Incorrect. In America, no signage is required.
> 
> The rules of an organization are just that...the rules of an organization. That is not law. Also, laws on SDITs vary from state to state, but the laws for a fully trained SD are different and cannot be compromised


Good to know. Shouldn't it be a requirement? I remember my friend saying she loved the vest because it let people know this was a working dog and while it was ok to ask to pet and pay attention to the cute puppy, cute puppy wasn't there to be cute, but to learn a job. People were more respectful when the pup was wearing a vest or some form of 'Service Dog in Training' sign. 

(This was 15ish years ago so my memory could be really fogged as well. Sheesh, I'm getting OLD.)


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## rgrey (Jul 30, 2013)

What I mean by "shouldn't it be a requirement" is-wouldn't it be easier if a trained service dog was required to wear some form of signage? Then non-dog/uninformed people would easily be able to see a service animal from a non-service animal. I would think even a support animal has to have some form of training/testing to qualify as a support animal. 

But...maybe I'm just used to rules and regulations.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Signage doesn't stop people from being rude and intrusive.
And no, ESAs have no training, which is why they do not have access rights with their handlers. They are not trained to mitigate a disability .


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## JustJim (Sep 6, 2010)

As Xeph has written, signage doesn't stop people from being rude and intrusive. It doesn't stop people from interfering with the dog or the handler. It doesn't stop ignorant people from trying to make rules that are inconsistent with the law, asking questions that are none of their business, or variously trying to pet/play with/otherwise interfere with dog/handler teams.

In the examples mentioned ("poodle piddling on the end of its leash, the snarly shih tzu, the leaping lab"), the problem is not something service dog owners are doing. People falsely claiming to have a disability, and that their dogs are service dogs, are the ones to go after. 

Section 209-204 of Missouri's Statues might serve as a starting point. It criminalizes impersonating "a person with a disability for the purpose of receiving the accommodations regarding service dogs." 

Store owners/managers are ignoring the exceptions in the law that allow for the removal of animals that are out-of-control or not housebroken. They need to get educated on the law, and live up to their responsibilities to provide a safe and clean environment. If they don't, call the health department. 

All vesting accomplishes is inviting people to interfere with the dog, and gives them yet another reason to be rude and ask intrusive questions to the handler.


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## PapaBravo (Sep 23, 2011)

I’ll add my .02 cents in here too. Normally my SD wears a vest, sometimes a bandana and sometimes just a collar, we also have a small tag that has Dept. of Justice phone number on it if there are any issues. ALL have a patch that says “service dog” very clearly on it. What he wears depends on the weather most of the time. His vest contains a pouch that I keep 4 sheets of paper containing ADA rules, phone numbers along with links a FAQ section of DOJ.

While the whole SD thing could be cleared up-OR really messed up with some federal rules, do we really need OR want more hoops to jump thru? To me it seems that a lot of money could be made by “certified trainers” that would test our dogs – but would we really have a better system that wouldn’t still be abused by some? 

As for a grocery store, we have been in there many times, but I’m lucky enough that going in without him is an option and that’s normally what I do. A friend and dog trainer of ours has said a dog can smell every item in there and each smell differently to them. I know how good it smells in there and have the grocery bill and waist to prove it! My SD just doesn’t see the need to have that put on him every time I to go in there.


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