# overbite in a 5 month old puppy



## Ziltoid

Hello,

I'm after suggestions/experience about overbite problems in a 5 month old pup who is teething. Have booked in to see a veterinary dental specialist on Friday so am trying to get ideas on what I should be asking about - I didn't even know these problems existed until yesterday.


I was at the vets for something else and asked about a baby canine which has not come out yet... (I assume it will soon as the others have and it is a bit loose) however when I showed the vet his mouth he got really concerned about his overbite. His bottom canines are basically in line with his top ones so are starting to press into the top gum on the front inside of the top canines. It doesn't seem to be causing any pain yet and there is no blood so it hasn't done more than create a little dent at this stage... but the teeth are far from fully grown so I guess this could get worse very quickly.


The vet seems to think that my only options are removing the bottom canines all together, or cutting them down and capping them. He didn't think that capping is very cost effective because the caps can be broken by biting on things and need re-capping numerous times throughout the dogs life. He did mention some kind of braces but didn't think that would help my dog because of how far off his bite is.


To be honest I'm a bit freaked out by this and really don't want to get his teeth removed all together, or even cut down... but will do it if that is the only option available. The cost mentioned for the cutting and capping was $1100-1200 but I don't know if he was talking about 1 tooth or 2. Guess I'll find out more about costs on Friday... the specialist visit is $165 on it's own. This is not going to be a cheap exercise.


I have spoken to the breeder and they own 4 generations of dogs on the dams side and have never had any other teeth issues in any of their dogs, or any of their other litters (this one included). My other dog is down that line and has perfect teeth so I believe that to be true. They are not aware of any dental problems coming from the sires side either... all dogs in my pups 5 generation lineage have been shown so I don't know where this came from. In my brief research it seems to be a genetic fault so obvioulsy one side has it... but I don't know a lot about genetics... maybe it's like a 1 in 1000 type thing? either way I guess that doesn't really matter, I have no intention of returning him and am only wanting to make sure he gets the highest quality of life that I can give him. He won't be shown or bred so I am not concerned in that regard.


Does anyone know anything about overbites? What should I be asking the specialist?


I have read other threads and articles where some dogs have come good on their own with age so I don't plan on getting any surgery done until it starts causing him problems or pain.

I don't know how to alter the picture size so rather than post something that comes out huge, I'll just add links. I apologise for the poor quality of the shots, it's quite difficult to hold a 5 month old down with lips pulled back and take photos at the same time.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/ziltoid1/1_zps102de5f8.jpg
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/ziltoid1/2_zpsc9806874.jpg
http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/ziltoid1/3_zps0020cc8c.jpg


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## Verivus

Did your puppy have an overbite since you first got him? How bad is the overbite? Are these baby teeth that are going into the gum? Or are they adult teeth that are coming in? Are any of the canines puncturing (or in danger of puncturing) the palette? 

At 5 months old, if the bite isn't too bad, it _may _correct itself. If it's baby teeth then I would consider getting it pulled if it's going into the gums like you say, but if it's already loose then it may fall out on its own relatively soon. However, once adult teeth start coming in and the jaw isn't correcting itself I would probably just go ahead and get the "shaving" procedure done. If any of the lower canines are puncturing the palette then I would definitely get it done ASAP. 

My GSD has a very bad overbite. At 10 weeks he had to get his lower canines pulled because of the trauma they were causing on his gums. At 6 months he needed to get dental work done (can't remember the name of the procedure off the top of my head).


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## Ziltoid

Verivus said:


> Did your puppy have an overbite since you first got him? How bad is the overbite? Are these baby teeth that are going into the gum? Or are they adult teeth that are coming in? Are any of the canines puncturing (or in danger of puncturing) the palette?
> 
> At 5 months old, if the bite isn't too bad, it _may _correct itself. If it's baby teeth then I would consider getting it pulled if it's going into the gums like you say, but if it's already loose then it may fall out on its own relatively soon. However, once adult teeth start coming in and the jaw isn't correcting itself I would probably just go ahead and get the "shaving" procedure done. If any of the lower canines are puncturing the palette then I would definitely get it done ASAP.
> 
> My GSD has a very bad overbite. At 10 weeks he had to get his lower canines pulled because of the trauma they were causing on his gums. At 6 months he needed to get dental work done (can't remember the name of the procedure off the top of my head).


 
I think he probably always had it. Honestly I didn't check or notice it when I first got him (8 weeks)... but I didn't know that overbites could be a problem so didn't even think to look at it. The first time I took him to the vets (12 weeks) the vet mentioned that he had one but didn't think it would be a problem so suggested we just wait and see if it improved as he grew. I didn't really think any more of it until yesterday.

It's the adult teeth that are in danger of going into the upper palette. I think it's pretty bad judging by what my vet said. The lower canines are basically in line with upper ones... the lower canine should sit in front of the upper one when closed so they would have to move quite a long way to do that. I tried to add links to some photos of it but am not sure if they actually show anything useful.

When you say that you got dental work done at 6 months, did you get the shaving procedure done? 

Does your dog have caps on the teeth and have the caps ever broken or needed re-capping?

Did you need to get root canal therapy done as part of it?


Sorry for all the questions. As I said I didn't even know this could be a problem until yesterday and am trying to find out as much as possible before I speak to the dental specialist.

Thank you for responding.


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## Verivus

Yes, the "shaving" procedure (the name of which escapes me atm) is the one I did. They shaved down the lower canines and the incisors for him. I did not get his teeth capped. From what the dentist was telling me, most caps fall off in a couple years unless you go with titanium which runs into a few thousand...  Right now one of his lower canines is bruised so I may have to get a root canal done.


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## selzer

I would not do anything to those teeth. The dog's head and skull is still growing. If you correct something now you might over-correct. And it really doesn't look all that bad. I would do a wait and see approach to this. So long as your dog is eating ok. Overbites usually do not cause major problems, under-bites usually will not correct themselves. Overbites are preferable in that respect.


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## Ziltoid

Verivus said:


> Yes, the "shaving" procedure (the name of which escapes me atm) is the one I did. They shaved down the lower canines and the incisors for him. I did not get his teeth capped. From what the dentist was telling me, most caps fall off in a couple years unless you go with titanium which runs into a few thousand...  Right now one of his lower canines is bruised so I may have to get a root canal done.


Oh no, I hope your little guy is OK. I think I may have read your thread in my searches for information on overbites.

Yeah, my vet mentioned that caps often need re-doing. I wasn't aware that they cut be cut down / shaved without a cap being put on so that is good to know.

Any surgery is already looking like it will be well over a thousand so I really don't think I could afford titanium on top of that.


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## selzer

I don't want to tell you what to do. But I will tell you what I would do. I would let the puppy grow into his mouth.


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## selzer

When Cujo was 6 weeks old, he had some cut on his head, and I rushed him to the ER, and the vet looked him over, and said, my he has a bad overbite. I freaked out. I took him to my regular vet and she looked at it and said it would probably straighten itself out. it did.


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## Ziltoid

selzer said:


> I would not do anything to those teeth. The dog's head and skull is still growing. If you correct something now you might over-correct. And it really doesn't look all that bad. I would do a wait and see approach to this. So long as your dog is eating ok. Overbites usually do not cause major problems, under-bites usually will not correct themselves. Overbites are preferable in that respect.


Thanks for your input selzer. I am really reluctant to get surgery done unless it is absolutely neccessary so it's good to hear from someone else that feels that might be a good idea. I'm still going to see the dental specialist on Friday to see her thoughts but was figuring I would put off surgery until I was 100% sure there is no other option.

It is definitely not affecting his appetite at this stage.

I don't really care whether he ever gets a 'perfect' bite as long as he is living pain free. The concern is whether the teeth are going to punch through the roof of his mouth, the adult teeth only came through fairly recently so they've still got a lot of growing to do... they already touch the top gums which is the scary part.


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## Ziltoid

selzer said:


> I don't want to tell you what to do. But I will tell you what I would do. I would let the puppy grow into his mouth.


Haha!! Nicely put.

I really hope that surgery is not necessary and have been saving various threads and photos on my phone of dogs that came good on their own, just in case the specialist gets really pushy on surgery... I was going to show her them and use that as justification for holding off for a while.


I was in an absolute panic when I left the vets yesterday, within a few minutes of getting home my vet had already called back to say that he'd put the referral through and giving me the dental specialists details to make an appointment... and basically saying my only options were complete removal or a major cut back and cap which I think involves root canal.

After doing a little searching around here and other sites I calmed down a little. At least there is hope that things may sort themselves out... whether that happens or not only time will tell.


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## Verivus

If the teeth are going to puncture the palette then it needs to be done, but I would hold out as long as possible. I waited with Kaiser maybe a bit too long in the futile hope it'd get better - he had a small puncture in the roof of his mouth by the time it was done. It did heal over though.


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## abakerrr

Get that baby tooth out of there ASAP. Both of these threads talk about base narrow canines as a result of retained baby teeth. Both (all three- including Pan) resolved on their own after the baby tooth was removed and the head/facial structure had adequate time to grow out.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...e-i-need-advice-canine-into-upper-palate.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-canine-tooth-possible-localized-demodex.html

My pup had the exact same issue at 5mts and my vet recommended hacking off the lower canine. After I let her play a serious game of tug of war with my adult shepherd, her last remaining baby tooth was yanked out and it took several weeks for her adult teeth to shift back to where they were supposed to be. You would be crazy to get adult teeth shaved off before giving it some time to self-resolve. If the pup gets close to adulthood and the tooth still hasn't self-corrected, then you should consider more drastic measures as recommended by your vet.

Good luck!


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## Ziltoid

abakerrr said:


> Get that baby tooth out of there ASAP. Both of these threads talk about base narrow canines as a result of retained baby teeth. Both (all three- including Pan) resolved on their own after the baby tooth was removed and the head/facial structure had adequate time to grow out.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...e-i-need-advice-canine-into-upper-palate.html
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-canine-tooth-possible-localized-demodex.html
> 
> My pup had the exact same issue at 5mts and my vet recommended hacking off the lower canine. After I let her play a serious game of tug of war with my adult shepherd, her last remaining baby tooth was yanked out and it took several weeks for her adult teeth to shift back to where they were supposed to be. You would be crazy to get adult teeth shaved off before giving it some time to self-resolve. If the pup gets close to adulthood and the tooth still hasn't self-corrected, then you should consider more drastic measures as recommended by your vet.
> 
> Good luck!


My vet wasn't worried about the baby tooth but I'll bring it up with the dental specialist and get her feelings on it too. The other side fell out some time in the last few days so hopefully this one goes soon too. He wrestles and plays tug with his big sister so maybe that will knock it out before Friday.

Thanks for the links, the more I read the better.


I will be giving it as much time as I can before getting anything done... but it already touches the top gum so I'm not sure how much self-correcting can happen before it starts causing problems. Argh!! I hate this, none of my other dogs have ever had teeth problems so it's not something that ever crossed my mind. I really don't want him to have to go through life without bottom canines.


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## wolfy dog

My Malinois from the past had a bad overbite (worse than your pup) at that age but her teeth aligned beautifully without any help or fancy dental work. I would wait and see. Messing with the enamel seems iffy to me personally.
Then another pup of mine had a overbite and it never corrected. It was a good lesson for me not to be such a perfectionist. He is old now and we love him. He easily crushes MBs.


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## Blanketback

I was told that because of my puppy's overbite, he might need a brace. Fortunately his adult teeth and bite are perfect now, but I was worried at the time. I read lots of stuff on the 'net, and it seems (what I picked up) that the lower jaw is slower to develop than the upper jaw. I'm curious to hear what the specialist says, but I also would wait it out, unless the teeth are puncturing the gum and you have no choice.


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## selzer

This is where it is scary to just trust a vet or specialist. The thing is, they may be quicker to put you through expensive treatments because that is their job. Dogs really do develop all different. Some grow slowly. Some shoot up. Some look all awkward and come out fine. Others look awkward and stay a little awkward. How to know? You want to do what is right for you dog. I think that sometimes we think that the more expensive path has to be the best path, and if we balk at it we are somehow not being loyal to a furry charge. 

Ask what will happen if you wait and see, might it get better on its own, and if it does not, will it get worse, and if it does what will be the difference if you wait until he is full-grown. I would plan on not making a decision on the spot. Take home whatever they say and sleep on it. This is not life or death, it won't matter if you wait 24 hours or 2 weeks.


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## Ziltoid

I guess the thing is that we (most pet owners) have to trust that a trained professional vet has more knowledge about a dogs health issues than we do. I know my vet has been in practice for a long time and obviously would have looked in a lot more dogs mouths than I have.

That said, who knows whether he has recently attended a seminar on potential dental issues so is on the lookout for them, or just doesn't have a great understanding of the various growth rates of german shepherds... or maybe he's right and there really is a problem there.

In a way by referring me to the specialist he is also saying to not take his word as gospel. I will see the dental specialist and listen to what she has to say. I am hoping that she tells me to wait and see, if not then I'll take her opinion and go away and think about it. 

I would hope that anyone working in the field would not recommend surgery unless it is absolutely vital.


Surgery is not something I am going to rush in to. I am aware that he is young and still growing and any surgical alteration made now is something that he is stuck with for life.


I appreciate the input from everyone, and thank you all for your responses. It's certainly given me something to think about.


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## wolfy dog

Also, play tons of tug games with ropey toys to force the baby tooth out.


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## selzer

I trust my vets too. They tend to shy away from early surgeries on some things. They will send us to specialists, and even there surgery is not always their number 1 recommendation. 

But across the board, I worry. I worry after watching I think a 60 minutes investigation, but it could have been some other similar show. They took a couple of shelter dogs with minor issues, and took them to about 13 different California veterinarians. They got some that diagnosed with the minor issue, but many diagnosed all kinds of things, some ranging from several hundred dollars worth of treatments to several thousand dollars worth of treatments. 

And yet we still do have to trust them. I mean, there is the AVMA. There is all that schooling. And there is the reputation they would get if they get serious complaints. 

And then there are situations where because I know the breed, or have some experience with a specific condition, and have paid attention to this board, I might have information that my vet does not have. Like pumping a slew of vaccinations at the same time into a siezure dog. I knew better. I told my dad. But he believed the vet when she said he should have them, and gave them all to him right there. And the dog suffered three days worth of totally unnecessary seizures. 

We try to do the best thing for our dogs. We trust to a point, we educate ourselves as much as possible, and we pray a lot.


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## Ziltoid

I'll admit that I do worry a bit about advice given by vets (or anyone for that matter) but I tend to be a bit a cynical in general... which is why I'm here asking questions and reading up on as much as I can before I go off to the specialist. I will take it all on board and then go away and decide for myself what I think the best option is... not that I think I have more knowledge than my vet or some of the very experienced members here... but all I can do is what I feel is right for my dog.

I honestly don't believe my vet would ever deliberately steer me in the wrong direction but everyone make mistakes and suffers from bad judgement at times so I at least attempt to do a bit of double-checking when it comes to things like surgery.



Thanks for the suggestion wolfy dog, I'll be doing all I can to make sure the baby tooth get removed by 'natural' means. It may not cause a problem but it's certainly not going to help things by still being there. I gave it a bit of a wiggle last night and it's starting to get fairly loose so with any luck it should come out soon.


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## Ziltoid

So i've seen the specialist and she is recommending surgery, sooner rather than later. She also seems to be suggesting complete removal as the most effective method. Cutting the tooth down is guess work because she won't know exactly where it would end up or size of the tooth. Braces might work but it'd be multi-stage and cost $3000-4000 not including the reattaching every time he knocked them off... and still may not work.

She said in her experience there is almost no chance it will fix itself and guessed the odds would be less than 5%.

I knew I would be dissapointed because there was only one answer I wanted to hear :'(

He is really reluctant to let anyone look in his mouth and she said that is because he is in pain and doesn't want us to hurt him. If he really is in pain then maybe I should get surgery as soon as possible.

I've told her that I want to think it over so she's going to email me details on my options.


What a crappy morning... I knew I wasn't going to like what she had to say. I thought waiting a while would be a good idea but I don't want him living in pain just because I don't want his teeth removed.


I don't know what to do.


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## Liesje

I just looked at the pics and honestly it looks almost identical to Pan's teeth during teething. He had baby teeth that wouldn't come out, his canines overlapped instead of fit together "scissor bite", he had an overbite..... but then a few months later his bite was perfect. I'm not saying the specialist is wrong but....I often wonder if I'd seen a vet or specialist at that age what they would have told me!

This was Pan's bite at 7 months. All the puppy teeth but one were out when I took this pic, but you can still see how the adult canines are overlapping and there's still an overbite (his bottom teeth were rubbing the soft tissue on the top of his mouth). Also in the second picture you can see his last retained puppy canine. I had that pulled for free when he got his hip and elbow prelim x-rays.

















I couldn't find any pics from earlier while he was still teething but it was ugly!! Teeth overlapping, jutting out every which way. I was scared but most people on this forum said just let him go through the process before doing anything drastic. As I said, by the time he was a year old all of his teeth lined up and he had a scissor bite. I've even shown him twice and he got SG ratings (highest possible rating for his age) both times with no negative comments about his teeth (meaning they are correct, if they weren't it would have come up). He has dental notations from an SV and USCA judge.


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## Ziltoid

Hope you don't mind but I actually showed the specialist those exact photos as an example of one that came good by itself. She had a good look at them but says that the angle Pan's lower canines were coming through was kind of aimed at the gap where my pups aren't.

I'm no expert but I think they look very similar.

It's really hard to know what to do. I am really against putting him through surgery... but would hate myself for leaving him in pain if it doesn't come good.

She suggested that while i wait i teach him to hold something in his mouth so that he's not in pain, and any growth can happen without the canines being jammed. He doesn't like holding things in his mouth outside of games though so i don't think i can do anything there.


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## abakerrr

Essentially what needs to happen is that baby tooth needs to come out so that the top adult canine can have the room to shift back and the lower canine can push forward. 

Again, I won't say your vet is wrong but I question anyone who says grinding down and capping a five month old puppy's lower canine is the best option at this point (especially when all the baby teeth haven't even fallen out yet). If that wasn't raising red flags for you too, I don't know that you would be on a web forum asking for advice/ input/ experience.

Ultimately you will do what your most comfortable with and if you trust the opinion of a licensed vet over us random people on the Internet who tell you to hold out and reevaluate in a month or two, then that's fine. No one is going to judge you for doing what YOU feel is best for your pup. But I guess what I'm getting at is there is more than enough reason to wait it out since we've given you more than 5% of real-world instances where this type of malocclusion has self corrected with time.


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## selzer

I am sorry you are having to make this decision. For fear that someone might claim I am anti-vet I am not going to suggest anything more. It is your dog and you have to decide whether your puppy is actually in pain (more pain than teething often causes) and what is best for him as you will have to live with the outcome of your decision. 

Please keep us updated. I hope for the best for your little guy.


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## Ziltoid

I agree that the baby tooth does need to go but the other side without baby tooth is off as well. I'll add photos of that side soon.

I did tell her that I wanted to hold off for a while to see what happens. She has offered a free catch up in a week or two if I want her opinion on whether there has been any improvement. I think that's pretty good of her.

I would love to wait until everything stops growing before a decision is made... but if it doesn't improve quickly it will punch holes through the roof of his mouth and possibly ruin his upper canines as well.

And yes, it would seem to be better than 5% judging by the threads and comments I have seen... But I don't know if those cases are all actually the same situation/severity or just look the same to my untrained eye.

Yes, I am looking for input from anyone that has any experience with this... whether that is because I don't completely trust the vets and specialists advice, or just because I am so against surgery at this age, I honestly don't know.


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## Ziltoid

selzer said:


> I am sorry you are having to make this decision. For fear that someone might claim I am anti-vet I am not going to suggest anything more. It is your dog and you have to decide whether your puppy is actually in pain (more pain than teething often causes) and what is best for him as you will have to live with the outcome of your decision.
> 
> Please keep us updated. I hope for the best for your little guy.


Please don't hold back on giving your thoughts because you're worried how people will look at it, and I hope I never gave the impression I felt you were just anti-vet because I certainly never intended it that way.

You are exactly the type of person I really appreciate feedback from. Ultimately whatever action I take (or don't) is my decision and no blame will ever be placed on anyone because I chose to follow their advice.

I am trying trying to make a balanced decision so the more I hear from any point of view, the better.


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## selzer

Na, not you, it is nothing that you wrote. 

I really have just the one situation where the ER vet said the dog had an overbite, and my regular vet was not concerned and said let's wait and see. His mouth never gave him any problems. That does not mean the same will be true for your puppy. 

A puppy buyer of mine took her pup to the vet and they found a heart murmur. First time that every happened to me. I had that pup to the vet 2 or 3 times for shots, and they never found a murmur. Her vet told her to return the puppy, considering all the trouble she had with her last dog. I said ok, or I would extend her money back period so that she could see if the pup would grow out of it. She took the dog to a heart specialist and they did an EKG on it. He said all the parts were there and clean and he would probably grow out of it. Three weeks later he was given a clean bill of health and they told the owner that she can do whatever she liked with him. She loves the dog, and I have gone to his obedience graduation, and then trained with him at my trainers. She is glad she did not jump on what her vet told her to do. 

But every situation is so totally different. I do not want to encourage you to wait if it might cause more of a problem, however much I doubt that it will. I do not know if two weeks is long enough to see enough change in his mouth. It seems like GSDs grow sometimes 1 part at a time. Cujo, for example, his ears and tail would grown, then the rest of him would catch up, and then his ears and tail would grow again. 

It is always possible that while the specialist might be experienced with dogs in general, she may not be totally experienced in GSDs and how they grow. Maybe. And, if she has performed surgeries at a young age, then she would have no idea how that dog would turn out without a surgery. How many people are going to go back 2 years later? I really don't know. 

How did this person come up with 5%?


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## Ziltoid

The 5% figure was a guess. I can't remember the exact wording used but it was in response to me asking whether she thought there was any chance at all of it coming good on its own (and showing examples of dogs who did, like Pan)... she said something like, in her experience or opinion it was very unlikely to grow into place and if she had to guess she would give it a 5% or less chance of happening.

Now, I am sure that dogs that have had their canines removed can live happy, healthy lives and obviously working in the field she does, she would see the worst case results of things like this going untreated (teeth punching through the roof of the mouth into the nasal cavity, infections etc.) so maybe she takes a safety first approach with it. If she told someone that it might fix itself and the owner didn't keep an eye on it which resulted in a worst case scenario, maybe it would look bad on her if the owner started going around telling everyone that she had told them to leave it and see if it got better... I don't know if that even crosses her mind, I am purely speculating here.

Agreed that once a dog has had teeth removed or cut down you will never know whether things would have got better on their own. That is what I am worried about - if I get surgery without being 100% sure it's the only option, I will always be questioning whether I did the right thing. On the other hand if things get worse and he is in pain, I'd hate to think that he is suffering because I can't make my mind up with what to do. He really doesn't seem to be in pain... but he lets me examine everything on him except the mouth which he is reluctant to show... maybe that's just him but my other dog happily lets me play around in her mouth - well I don't know how happy she is about it but she lets me without complaining. So maybe the mouth is hurting?

Also agree with them growing bits at a time, he has been going through short and stocky to long and gangly with over-sized ears etc. Maybe the jaw is just a bit behind... or maybe it's a problem, my normal vet did point out the overbite at 12 weeks so it's possible that he'll always have it.


The 2 weeks for a free follow up was just something she threw out there when she could see that I was planning on waiting to see if it gets better. If it's not causing more of a problem in 2 weeks I certainly won't be rushing in to get my free check up and make my mind up then. Obviously I don't like spending the money involved with seeing specialists but I think his teeth are more important than $160 a visit + whatever surgery costs may be involved.


My parents have a cat that has had things like heart murmurs picked up and he is still fine. At one stage they were told that he had a soaring white blood cell count after surgery to remove half an ear due to cancer, apparently the cell count was multiplying at such a rate that they were told he only had days to live... that was 2-3 years ago and he's still kicking on strong and healthy (with a normal cell count). The vets couldn't explain what happened just said that they were extremly glad to be wrong in that case.


The specialist gives seminars to vets here about dental issues and said that she would love to be proven wrong and have it grow out itself. She said if that happened she would use him as a case study... she just doesn't think it's going to happen.

Ahhh.. I'm rambling and still no closer to an answer... I'm off to see what else I can find out about overbites.


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## Liesje

I don't mind at all. I just wish I'd taken pictures earlier on when he was 5-6 months, but everyone said "don't even LOOK at his teeth right now or you will panic!" because they get so wonky at this age. So I tried hard to just ignore them until all the adult teeth came in. At that point I was still worried but everyone said give it a month or two and sure enough, it all got sorted out on its own.

One thing tons of people told me was that the lower jaw develops slower, so it's very common if not normal for the GSD puppies to have overbites, sometimes quite severe, while they are still teething and developing. I don't think the angle of Pan's adult teeth change, but his lower jaw finally developed out so everything "fit".


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## wolfy dog

My worry would be if you start to interfere at this young age and the jaw continues to develop that you end up worse than when you started, possibly preventing the self correction of his jaw and bite.
5% is still a chance.
As long as you can get enough food in him to grow up healthy I would wait a few more months, unless you see injury in his upper jaw.


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## Liesje

Re-reading the post from the specialist.....I don't know, like Sue says I'm not inclined to disagree with a specialist but...if they are recommending "removal" then what is the harm in waiting? What are they removing? Puppy teeth? Adult teeth? I guess personally I would be waiting until the puppy teeth are out and see where the adult teeth want to come in. 5 months is really young. Pan had a retained puppy tooth and I didn't have it removed until 7 months and even then I had people saying to wait and let it fall out on its own.


----------



## Liesje

Another thing I just thought of....do you remember how the puppy's teeth were around 8 weeks? A few people told me that generally how their mouth looks as a baby is how it will go back to once the adult teeth are in and "settle". So if you didn't notice any problems until during teething, it's possible there won't be any problems.

Whatever you decide, keep us updated. I'm curious to see what happens.


----------



## wolfy dog

Liesje said:


> Another thing I just thought of....do you remember how the puppy's teeth were around 8 weeks? A few people told me that generally how their mouth looks as a baby is how it will go back to once the adult teeth are in and "settle". So if you didn't notice any problems until during teething, it's possible there won't be any problems.
> 
> Whatever you decide, keep us updated. I'm curious to see what happens.


True. Same goes for gaits. If they look and move soundly as an 8 week old, they should be fine as an adult, providing good nutrition and appropriate exercise.


----------



## Blanketback

Ziltoid said:


> She suggested that while i wait i teach him to hold something in his mouth so that he's not in pain, and any growth can happen without the canines being jammed.


I did something similar - I was giving my puppy so many knuckle bones it wasn't funny. I mean, really probably, *too many* lol. But I was hoping that the constant gnawing on them would make the teeth align themselves. 

I'm sorry that you're in this position. That was nice of her to offer the 2 week follow-up. Fingers crossed that your pup makes a great case study!


----------



## stealthq

I have a standard poodle, and base narrow canines are common in the breed - mine had them as a pup, worse than yours, and they completely corrected themselves with zero intervention on my part by the time all of his adult teeth were fully in. He now has a perfect scissors bite.

There are things you can do to encourage the teeth to move into proper position. You can get a ball very slightly bigger than the inside of the puppy's mouth and encourage him to hold it for a couple of minutes multiple times a day. My pet dental specialist fits them to the puppy's mouth for you - it's become an established technique. If the puppy won't hold the ball, you can put your thumbs in his mouth and gently apply pressure in the direction the teeth need to move to do the same thing. Again, do it for several minutes at a time, several times a day, or as often as you can. There are dental appliances that work as well, but it doesn't sound like your specialist is knowledgeable about them, or he/she would have suggested one already.

Anyway, the general rule of thumb is that removing the tooth is the absolute worst thing you can do unless there a problem of rot or irreparable damage. Those canines help stabilize the other teeth in the jaw. Remove them, esp. in a young puppy, and you frequently find the other teeth move in undesirable ways. Basically, you create more problems. If you end up needing to go the dental procedure route, better to shave it down and risk having to repeat the procedure than to remove the tooth.


----------



## Ziltoid

Liesje said:


> I don't mind at all. I just wish I'd taken pictures earlier on when he was 5-6 months, but everyone said "don't even LOOK at his teeth right now or you will panic!" because they get so wonky at this age. So I tried hard to just ignore them until all the adult teeth came in. At that point I was still worried but everyone said give it a month or two and sure enough, it all got sorted out on its own.
> 
> One thing tons of people told me was that the lower jaw develops slower, so it's very common if not normal for the GSD puppies to have overbites, sometimes quite severe, while they are still teething and developing. I don't think the angle of Pan's adult teeth change, but his lower jaw finally developed out so everything "fit".



I have read numerous articles and posts that mention the lower jaw growing slower in german shepherds so am really hoping that is making things look worse than they really are.

As for her comments on Pan's photos... well... not trying to doubt the specialist because she obviously has a great deal of knowledge on doggy dentistry but she was shown the photos already knowing that the dogs teeth came good on their own, so it's not like she could turn around and say that they wouldn't turn out ok without surgery.




Liesje said:


> Re-reading the post from the specialist.....I don't know, like Sue says I'm not inclined to disagree with a specialist but...if they are recommending "removal" then what is the harm in waiting? What are they removing? Puppy teeth? Adult teeth? I guess personally I would be waiting until the puppy teeth are out and see where the adult teeth want to come in. 5 months is really young. Pan had a retained puppy tooth and I didn't have it removed until 7 months and even then I had people saying to wait and let it fall out on its own.



She's talking about removing the bottom adult canines. The harm with leaving them in is a few things -

1. the pain that he in (I really can't tell if he is or not, his behaviour has not changed at all - she was confident that he is). 
2. the teeth punching through the roof of the mouth 
3. this causing problems with the upper canines because the lower ones are pushing them out of alignment.




Liesje said:


> Another thing I just thought of....do you remember how the puppy's teeth were around 8 weeks? A few people told me that generally how their mouth looks as a baby is how it will go back to once the adult teeth are in and "settle". So if you didn't notice any problems until during teething, it's possible there won't be any problems.
> 
> Whatever you decide, keep us updated. I'm curious to see what happens.


I didn't really look when he was 8 weeks old, I wasn't aware that these problems existed so unfortunately never really checked. I am sure if I ask the breeders if they checked they will say they did... but they know that I am going through this at the moment so the answer would be yes regardless of whether they actually had or not. They have been breeding down this line of females for at least 4 generations and have never had any other problems so I don't blame them if they haven't made a habit of giving the teeth a thorough check before selling the pups.

The first mention of a potential problem was my normal vet at 12 weeks of age when he mentioned that he had an overbite. At that stage he didn't expect it to be a problem and said to just see if things improved with age.


----------



## Ziltoid

wolfy dog said:


> My worry would be if you start to interfere at this young age and the jaw continues to develop that you end up worse than when you started, possibly preventing the self correction of his jaw and bite.
> 5% is still a chance.
> As long as you can get enough food in him to grow up healthy I would wait a few more months, unless you see injury in his upper jaw.



I tend to agree with this. It's really hard to know what to do, if I take any corrective action now it's kind of guess work with how the teeth will end up on their own. This was something she mentioned when talking about cutting the teeth down and capping them - how do you know how far down the teeth would need to be cut? Apparently shaving would not be an option because dogs only have 1mm of enamel and any lower than that requires capping because you are into some kind of porous material.




Blanketback said:


> I did something similar - I was giving my puppy so many knuckle bones it wasn't funny. I mean, really probably, *too many* lol. But I was hoping that the constant gnawing on them would make the teeth align themselves.
> 
> I'm sorry that you're in this position. That was nice of her to offer the 2 week follow-up. Fingers crossed that your pup makes a great case study!



Thanks. Yep, the best possible outcome will result in the case study.

Your method sounds similar to the ball/massage theory. Apparently the dog biting down on a ball enough can help push the teeth out a bit.


----------



## Ziltoid

stealthq said:


> I have a standard poodle, and base narrow canines are common in the breed - mine had them as a pup, worse than yours, and they completely corrected themselves with zero intervention on my part by the time all of his adult teeth were fully in. He now has a perfect scissors bite.
> 
> There are things you can do to encourage the teeth to move into proper position. You can get a ball very slightly bigger than the inside of the puppy's mouth and encourage him to hold it for a couple of minutes multiple times a day. My pet dental specialist fits them to the puppy's mouth for you - it's become an established technique. If the puppy won't hold the ball, you can put your thumbs in his mouth and gently apply pressure in the direction the teeth need to move to do the same thing. Again, do it for several minutes at a time, several times a day, or as often as you can. There are dental appliances that work as well, but it doesn't sound like your specialist is knowledgeable about them, or he/she would have suggested one already.
> 
> Anyway, the general rule of thumb is that removing the tooth is the absolute worst thing you can do unless there a problem of rot or irreparable damage. Those canines help stabilize the other teeth in the jaw. Remove them, esp. in a young puppy, and you frequently find the other teeth move in undesirable ways. Basically, you create more problems. If you end up needing to go the dental procedure route, better to shave it down and risk having to repeat the procedure than to remove the tooth.



Good to hear of another success story with the wait and see method.

To be fair to the specialist, she did mention the ball and massage methods but doesn't really seem to believe in them... at least that was the impression I got when she was talking about it. She only mentioned it right at the end when she knew I was going to wait a while and said that some people try them and explained the idea behind it. I figure it can't hurt to at least try them out - he doesn't really like holding anything in his mouth for extended periods of time unless it's a game so I figure I'll have most luck with the massage.


She said that there are basically 2 schools of thought on vet dentistry - The American way which is do anything to keep the tooth, and the Canadian way which is fix the problem (surgery / remove the teeth). She said she tends to go the Canadian way. Apparently there are only 2 vet dental specialists in my city (or maybe it was state?) her and someone else. She said that the other one follows the American method... maybe I should look them up and see if I can get a referral for a second opinion.

We spoke long and hard about what removing the tooth would do to the structure and strength of the jaw. She said that the hole fills with bone so no strength is lost and the the other teeth won't lose position because of it.


In a way we seem to have completely different view points on how we should proceed. Obviously I have no experience or knowledge outside of a few days searching the net so my thoughts are purely based on what I feel most comfortable with. 

Her order of preference on what we should do is:

1. Remove the bottom canines
2. Cut down and cap them
3. Braces
4. Wait and see - I include the ball and massage methods here


My order of preference is:

1. Wait and see
2. Braces
3. Cut down and cap
4. Remove the teeth


Admittedly she did say that she would love to try the braces basically as an experiment to see what she could do. However it would be multi-stage and require frequent re-attachments every time be knocked them off. Apparently there is no such thing as a dog grade cement used for dog braces so they use human grade - humans can be told to not bite on things that they shouldn't - dogs use their mouths for everything and you can't really tell a dog not to pick up a stick or rock and bite on it... There is just no way I could ever remove absolutely everything from my property that he shouldn't be biting on, let alone things he finds on our outings.

The cost of braces she estimated at $3000-4000 + how ever many re-attachment costs he would need. I can't really afford that. She also said that there is no guarantee it would work. If I could get a guarantee that spending $3000-4000 as a one off cost would definitely fix things I would scrape the money together somehow (take out a loan or something) but I can't afford it on the off chance it works.


----------



## Ziltoid

Oh and his last puppy tooth came out either last night or this morning so that's one less thing to worry about.

I have no idea if it will make a difference but it obviously couldn't have helped by still being there.


I'm going to add a link to a couple more photos I took today when I can get them off my phone. Just got a new PC so have to install software and then get the photos off the phone before I can upload them.


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## Ziltoid

Here are the latest photos. Once again I apologise for the quality of the shots, I managed to get a bunch of photos even more blurry than last time... maybe it's time to invest in a decent camera rather than using my phone for everything.

It's hard to tell which one is worse - the left side seems to be closer to being in the correct place but is doing more digging in to the gum, while the right side is way out of whack but is not digging in to the top as much.


*Right:*












*Left:*


----------



## Liesje

Honestly, if the dog is not acting in pain (refusing to eat) I would agree with your order of priority and not the specialist. Your new pics look like Pan's progression and look better than the originals already.


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## Ziltoid

It's hard to tell whether they are looking better... I think they are slightly better but maybe the angle I took the shot is a little different. I really hope that they are improving.

Guess I'll just keep taking photos every 2-3 days and see if I can notice any difference.


I worry about my little guy. I tried to ensure that I got a nice healthy dog by making sure I was buying a pup from surveyed parents but he seems to be having problems. His mother had good joint and breed surveys and his dad (imported) had a Kkl1 rating and all breed and joint surveys were good, all progeny from both look to be doing well... to the best of my knowledge I was checking the right things.

He has a limp that's been on and off for 3-4 weeks now, which is why I was at the vets when this problem was picked up... of course he didn't limp at the vets so he just checked the joints and moved them around and doesn't think there is a problem there. I've owned german shepherds my entire life and have never had worries about any of them like I do with him.

Maybe I should be resting him for a few weeks to see if I can get the limp to clear up but he went through a stage of 'big boy' barking at other dogs and sometimes people etc. so I have been hammering the socialisation and started obedience training to try and knock it out of him. That seems to have been doing wonders because he's now calm and behaving himself really well in all situations... but what's more important?


My current female (same line on the mothers side) was easy, basically everything went as expected and I've never had any concerns about her health or behaviour.


All I can say is thank god I don't have children... I'd be a nervous wreck!!


----------



## wolfy dog

"He has a limp that's been on and off for 3-4 weeks now, which is why I was at the vets when this problem was picked up... of course he didn't limp at the vets so he just checked the joints and moved them around and doesn't think there is a problem there. I've owned german shepherds my entire life and have never had worries about any of them like I do with him."

I would ask for x rays to rule out Panostinitis, occurring in young fast growing males sometimes.
That's why you want to prevent too much growth in a short time.


----------



## Ziltoid

wolfy dog said:


> "He has a limp that's been on and off for 3-4 weeks now, which is why I was at the vets when this problem was picked up... of course he didn't limp at the vets so he just checked the joints and moved them around and doesn't think there is a problem there. I've owned german shepherds my entire life and have never had worries about any of them like I do with him."
> 
> I would ask for x rays to rule out Panostinitis, occurring in young fast growing males sometimes.
> That's why you want to prevent too much growth in a short time.



Thank you for the suggestion. I just had a very quick look at the symptoms and Panostinitis is definitely a possibility.

I was sure when I first noticed it that it was his front right leg that he was limping on but then a week or two ago it became the back leg - I was questioning whether it was back leg all along and I had just misjudged it. I mentioned that to the vet and he gave me calcium tablets saying that sometimes a calcium deficiency can cause a limp that shifts around... due to diet he doubted it was that but said that the tablets won't hurt.

He is growing very quickly, last check was about 31 kgs (68 pounds) which seemed to me to be quite heavy for a 5 month old. Obviously he's going to be bigger than my female but he's very close to her size already which surprised me. Although that said, the female did grow rapidly for the first 7 or so months and hasn't really got much bigger since then so who knows?


----------



## abakerrr

Ziltoid said:


> Thank you for the suggestion. I just had a very quick look at the symptoms and Panostinitis is definitely a possibility.
> 
> I was sure when I first noticed it that it was his front right leg that he was limping on but then a week or two ago it became the back leg - I was questioning whether it was back leg all along and I had just misjudged it. I mentioned that to the vet and he gave me calcium tablets saying that sometimes a calcium deficiency can cause a limp that shifts around... due to diet he doubted it was that but said that the tablets won't hurt.
> 
> He is growing very quickly, last check was about 31 kgs (68 pounds) which seemed to me to be quite heavy for a 5 month old. Obviously he's going to be bigger than my female but he's very close to her size already which surprised me. Although that said, the female did grow rapidly for the first 7 or so months and hasn't really got much bigger since then so who knows?


Stop giving the dog calcium tablets and start being more skeptical of whatever vet your using. Panosteitis is a very common problem in the german shepherd dog breed and is a self-limiting issue... Meaning, it will go away on its own. PANO should almost always be the default in any adolescent shepherd who presents with mildly painful lameness that shifts to different legs. If you were to take x-rays of your pup, you would likely see fibrous tissue in his long bones (femur, tib/fib). Some people have had luck with _lowering_ the protein and calcium ratios in the food they are feeding to their pups (such as Natural Balance LID Sweet Potato & Fish), others with adding vitamin C supplements, and others such as myself, have had luck with regular crate rest for a few days whenever there was a flair up. Some also like to give pain meds, others just let it take its course... Personal preference I guess, there's really no set remedy. One of my shepherds had it bad when she was 10 months and again at a 14 months, while the younger one had a mild case straight through from five to seven months. Both dogs (from totally different lines) presented in different legs on different days. Both dogs, including the one I mentioned earlier with a similar bite development to your dog, are totally healthy as adults and have no health issues.

Biggest question is why have you only posted pictures of the little guy's mouth?... What about the rest of him?


----------



## selzer

Pano is more likely in males than females. You can get an x-ray on that or wait and see. Pano is self-limiting. They can give you pain meds for it, and that may make it take longer to heal because the pup over-does it, and some pain meds can cause other issues. Or you can just let the pup be a pup and let him decide when he has had enough. Pano goes away on its own, and doesn't cause problems down the line. I have heard that albon can knock out pano, but I don't know if that is a regular dosing for coccidia or if you have to give higher doses. Its just that when they were testing pano out, they realized a bunch of the control group had pano and they went ahead with using them for the study, and all of them stopped having any symptoms of pano and it never reoccured. 

Why? 

God knows. 

Pano is the inflamation of a membrane on the long bones. You can see it on an x-ray. It happens when dogs grow fast. It can happen later on, but that is rare. Often times the dog limps on one leg, and then he starts limping on another leg. 

I did have a female with pano, so it does happen in girls, just not as common. Of all the things GSDs might get, pano would be my choice every time.

Calcium is bad. Overages of calcium can cause deposits in the joints and can cause hip and joint issues. Most puppy foods have plenty of calcium in them. And, calcium and phosphorus have to balanced. Don't give tablets. You can give raw meaty bones -- much better for teething puppies, help with ears up -- takes extra calcium, and the phosphorous/calcium ration will be proper.


----------



## Ziltoid

abakerrr said:


> Stop giving the dog calcium tablets and start being more skeptical of whatever vet your using. Panosteitis is a very common problem in the german shepherd dog breed and is a self-limiting issue... Meaning, it will go away on its own. PANO should almost always be the default in any adolescent shepherd who presents with mildly painful lameness that shifts to different legs. If you were to take x-rays of your pup, you would likely see fibrous tissue in his long bones (femur, tib/fib). Some people have had luck with _lowering_ the protein and calcium ratios in the food they are feeding to their pups (such as Natural Balance LID Sweet Potato & Fish), others with adding vitamin C supplements, and others such as myself, have had luck with regular crate rest for a few days whenever there was a flair up. Some also like to give pain meds, others just let it take its course... Personal preference I guess, there's really no set remedy. One of my shepherds had it bad when she was 10 months and again at a 14 months, while the younger one had a mild case straight through from five to seven months. Both dogs (from totally different lines) presented in different legs on different days. Both dogs, including the one I mentioned earlier with a similar bite development to your dog, are totally healthy as adults and have no health issues.
> 
> Biggest question is why have you only posted pictures of the little guy's mouth?... What about the rest of him?


Thank you very much for the information. After reading up a bit on it, it really does seem to be a fairly common occurrence in GSDs his age - certainly not something a vet shouldn't be aware of. Quite frankly he has a text book case of it and is displaying every symptom... I'm really disappointed that the vet did not pick this up... and really relieved that it could be this. I was starting to freak a bit that he had been struck down with HD at this age.

I will stop giving him the calcium tablets. I actually thought it was strange that the vet had given me the tablets when he fully admitted that he doubted that the dog had a calcium deficiency so I was only giving him half the recommended dose anyway.


Now for a couple of photos. I will point out that he is going through an awkward stage at the moment where he has just had a big growth spurt and is all legs and ears... and one ear has gone a bit floppy since teething really kicked in... I think he's aware of this and refuses to look at the camera unless I make strange noises.


----------



## Ziltoid

selzer said:


> Pano is more likely in males than females. You can get an x-ray on that or wait and see. Pano is self-limiting. They can give you pain meds for it, and that may make it take longer to heal because the pup over-does it, and some pain meds can cause other issues. Or you can just let the pup be a pup and let him decide when he has had enough. Pano goes away on its own, and doesn't cause problems down the line. I have heard that albon can knock out pano, but I don't know if that is a regular dosing for coccidia or if you have to give higher doses. Its just that when they were testing pano out, they realized a bunch of the control group had pano and they went ahead with using them for the study, and all of them stopped having any symptoms of pano and it never reoccured.
> 
> Why?
> 
> God knows.
> 
> Pano is the inflamation of a membrane on the long bones. You can see it on an x-ray. It happens when dogs grow fast. It can happen later on, but that is rare. Often times the dog limps on one leg, and then he starts limping on another leg.
> 
> I did have a female with pano, so it does happen in girls, just not as common. Of all the things GSDs might get, pano would be my choice every time.
> 
> Calcium is bad. Overages of calcium can cause deposits in the joints and can cause hip and joint issues. Most puppy foods have plenty of calcium in them. And, calcium and phosphorus have to balanced. Don't give tablets. You can give raw meaty bones -- much better for teething puppies, help with ears up -- takes extra calcium, and the phosphorous/calcium ration will be proper.



And thank you for the information selzer.

Yep, I have decided to cut the calcium tablets right out. He is getting raw bones and between those and the rest of his food I am confident he is getting plenty of calcium without adding tablets to it.

Of all the things that had crossed my mind for possible causes of his limping I am so glad it is probably pano. It's not that I'm pleased to see him in pain but I was thinking things like HD and ED.


It's crazy to think that his problems *might* all be related to him just being a fast growing pup.

This site is amazing, I only mentioned his limp in passing and boom, wolfydog seems to have probably diagnosed it 5 mins later on the very next post, without even hearing all the details, while my vet is selling me tablets that have the potential to contribute to joint issues down the line.

On top of that, I have a slim hope that he will get out of this without surgery on the mouth. I'm not counting on this being the case but am really glad I didn't take the specialists advice and jump on surgery straight away. If it turns out surgery is required at least I will know that I gave it every chance to come good on it's own.


----------



## abakerrr

Cute little showline pup! He's definitely going through the awkward phase but he'll start coming back together in a few months. 

If you see that his mouth is sore and he ends up having trouble eating with his wonky teeth, try wetting down his kibble before you give it to him. You'll drive yourself crazy if you keep checking them everyday. Though realistically it will probably take a month or two for his teeth to move around, I'de only reassess on a once-a-week basis and take it from there (for your own sanity). Good luck!


----------



## wolfy dog

Don't forget to enjoy him and take it as it comes.


----------



## Ziltoid

abakerrr said:


> Cute little showline pup! He's definitely going through the awkward phase but he'll start coming back together in a few months.
> 
> If you see that his mouth is sore and he ends up having trouble eating with his wonky teeth, try wetting down his kibble before you give it to him. You'll drive yourself crazy if you keep checking them everyday. Though realistically it will probably take a month or two for his teeth to move around, I'de only reassess on a once-a-week basis and take it from there (for your own sanity). Good luck!


 
Oh, he's not having any trouble eating... lol, he's a little pig!! I'll know something is seriously wrong if he goes off his food.

I think I'll be checking more often than I probably should be. Since the vet and specialist were talking about the teeth punching through the top of the mouth, I feel that I have to keep a very close eye on it.

Cheers, I'm really hoping things work out ok.


----------



## Ziltoid

wolfy dog said:


> Don't forget to enjoy him and take it as it comes.


Regardless of the end result he'll always be my little guy. I'm very attached to him which is why it has been so difficult to make rational decisions... especially when I am not necessarily agreeing with the advice I'm getting from my vet and specialist - and that's where I have to stop and think about whether it's because I'm thinking emotionally and not getting the answers I want to hear, or because there actually is something wrong with the recommendations.

It seems to be harder on me than it is him... He's still very playful and having a great time. Maybe I should just follow his lead.

So yeah, it's just going to have to be a matter of keeping an eye on things and dealing with whatever happens.


----------



## wolfy dog

Ziltoid said:


> Maybe I should just follow his lead.


:thumbup: for the overbite, take him to the vet for possible Pano.


----------



## Ziltoid

So I went to another vet for a second opinion yesterday. This guy came highly recommended by the breeders, obedience trainers and one of my mates... he used to breed GSDs and has been a judge at shows etc. so at the very least he knows the breed well.

With the teeth he wants to wait a couple of weeks and see where they go. We can't wait too long because the bottom canines have started punching holes up top. The position of his teeth is a little better than last week but they are growing upwards quicker than they're growing forward and out. Anyway he thinks we'll be able to get away with cutting a bit of the gum to give them room to grow out... or if it gets worse we may need to shave the teeth down a bit. He does not think we will need to remove the teeth all together... which is a massive relief.


For the limp he said that the symptoms I explained sound like pano (again Zakk didn't limp at the vets and I haven't been able to get a good video of it) but we can't know for sure without xrays. Apparently the limp moving from front to back to front is a good sign... well as good a sign as a moderately lame puppy can have. He doesn't like to put dogs under anesthetic unless it's really necessary so said that we are better off waiting the 2 weeks for his teeth and then if he has surgery for them, getting the xrays done when he is already sedated. If the teeth somehow magically fix themselves, we'll deal with the legs separately.


All in all I am quite happy with this guys prognosis and feeling fairly positive about things. I just hope that the teeth don't punch too far further in over the next 2 weeks... that's got to be painful. I didn't mention anything about seeing the previous vet, specialist or my feelings on things (potential pano etc.) because I didn't want to influence his diagnosis so it was really good to hear him suggesting pano and keeping the teeth.


I figure I'll keep updating this thread regardless of the outcomes for both teeth and the limp. While searching around I came across heaps of threads for teeth or limp problems that seemed to match my little guys but the threads often don't have any conclusion which doesn't help when you're trying to get a feel for what the possible outcomes are.


----------



## wolfy dog

Did your vet talk about a brace to force the teeth outward and away from the upper gums?


----------



## Ziltoid

He did mention braces but outside of his feeling that they won't work, I can't remember exactly what he said about them. I *think* he said that they won't work because what needs to happen is the bottom jaw to grow in length while braces can only change the angle of the teeth. Obviously if we change the angle of the teeth and then the jaw grows closer to the correct length that could cause some problems with alignment.

I know he said that there is a possibility that by 7/8/9 months the jaw might grow to be the correct length but the problem I have is that the teeth are already punching small holes so I can't afford to wait until then. Having the holes there obviously has an infection risk etc. and also holds the teeth in place so that even if the jaw grows it can stop the teeth moving into the slot.


----------



## Ziltoid

Just got back from the vets and have devastating news. I ended up getting the gums cut to give room for the teeth to grow out - minor surgery and he had already made some pretty large holes in the gums anyway so I figured he's doing it slowly and painfully so at least a quick clean cut while he's sedated was better and would give the teeth room to grow out.


Now for the bad part... while he was sedated I got x-rays done on all limbs to try and work out what was going on with the limping. The vet said that when he started going through the x-rays he wondered whether he should be waking the dog at all... he said he hasn't seen problems like these in GSDs in a long time. 

My pup has hip dysplasia in both rear legs and OCD in both shoulders - which explains why he has been limping on different legs at times. The front right shoulder is the one giving him the most problems judging by his limping but they would all be hurting. Apparently I can get surgery for the shoulders but usually a dog would be putting more weight onto the back legs while healing and he can't do that because of the HD. I haven't had much time to look into OCD but it seems like it is not a 100% guaranteed fix. There is surgery that can be done for hips but he said that PennHip would not recommend it.

I need to speak to him again when I clear my head a bit but his recommendation doesn't sound good. He just kept looking at me sadly while talking and going through the x-rays saying he is so sorry. I guess him saying that he was wondering whether he should be waking him up tells me all I need to know. 

I don't think I could have possibly got any worse news... I am absolutely devastated and don't know what to do. It's one of those decisions that I don't think I can ever be sure I made the right call - am I being selfish by keeping him for as long as possible while every step is causing him pain... if I put him down am I robbing him of a couple of years of somewhat happy living... I just don't know and don't think I ever will. How can you ever know what is best for him.

I have copies of all his x-rays but guess I'll start a new thread with them some time in the hip forum.

The vet knows the breeder's dogs and said he knows that their dogs all have good surveyed joints and that they use studs that have surveyed joints... so I'm just one of the really unlucky ones that copped the worst genetic outcome. I spoke with the breeders but all they could say was basically the same... the vet is really well known and revered in the german shepherd circles here so they have absolutely no doubt that what he is saying is right and haven't even asked to see the x-rays. They just mated a dog and said I could have pick of the litter... but I just said that I am not thinking clearly and can't give an answer on that yet.

I had always pictured a good 10+ years of me and my dogs being together... I can't even think about letting him go without crying. He's only 6 months old...


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## JakodaCD OA

I am so very sorry Every owners worst nightmare.

I am glad tho, that your breeder is standing behind you and not one of those that will ignore you when a problem crops up.

It's a very hard decision to make. And honestly, I'm not sure what I would do. Having all 4 legs affected in some way really does stink So unfair.

I'm sorry your in this position, sorry for your poor puppy.


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## NancyJ

I am really sorry for all that you are facing and the decisions you are struggling with. 

I can agree that I am not sure I know what I would do.

I think the best you can do is weigh the pros and cons, make the best decision you can with input from the vet and people who know your pup, and don't second guess yourself or beat yourself up for whatever choice you make.


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## Liesje

Oh no, I'm so sorry  I know what I would probably do but whatever you decide, it's clear you've never not had the dog's best interests at heart.


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## Blanketback

I'm so very sorry you and your puppy are going through this. What devastating news.


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## wolfy dog

OMG, I am so very sorry for you and him. A 6 month old pup........
But he cannot live his life in pain. Devastating and it makes me sad.
I am sending you and him strength.


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## Mog

My condolensces... I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you.


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## DaniRo

I am so sorry for you and your pup!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Ziltoid

Thank you all for the kind words. It's horrible for both him and me, I guess the only positive I can think of is that at least he got me as an owner and I will do my best to make the right decisions for him.

I'm going to speak to the vet again next week and have a list of questions with me so that even if I get overwhelmed again I can still get the info I need.

I've been watching him all day and he's been playing with my other dog and splashing around in his wading pool... it's so hard, he is just so full of life and oblivious to what is going on. It brings me to tears.

He's still enjoying himself so I think I might still get some time with him. I'll just get him as lean as possible and keep the exercise to slow, short, leashed walks for as long as I can. I'm also going to get a ramp built off the back deck, there's only 5 steps or so but I'm sure a gentle slope will be easier to deal with and it'll be there for when my other dog becomes a senior citizen.

I guess that hanging on might put me out of guarantee timeframes for a replacement pup from the breeder but I don't really care about that. I'm sure I'll eventually get another pup after him but might find it easier to go elsewhere and get something that looks different... I don't know, I'll see how I feel when I get there.


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## WISLADY

So sorry to hear about your pup. Give us an update when you can.


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