# Nature vs nurture



## Sabis mom

I want to have an honest discussion about the nature of dogs. Dozens of GSD's, well over a couple hundred dogs total, all sizes, breeds, ages and genders and they all ended up pretty much the same with their own personalities of course.

I have had no real issues with house training, or resource guarding. Very few fights. Only my Dane was destructive and difficult to crate train, but a sweeter natured dog I have never met. 
Am I the luckiest person in the world? Or is there more to it then that?
I am horrible at training, I'm lazy and I sort of don't care. I seem to get to the stage were they aren't total ass hats and then I drop it. But in spite of that they all seem fine. I tend to have conversations with them, rather then barking commands at them. I have had multitudes of other critters around them and it's been mostly ok. I routinely take food and toys away, and in some cases have actually reached in and pulled stuff from their mouths, and I promote playing with their food. I manage some behaviors and stop others but all in all every dog that has been in my house is stable and well behaved. Fosters leave my house crate trained, house broken, knowing sit, stay, come, down and walking on a loose leash. They take food nicely and sit for their dinner. No dog issues or nasty behavior, like I said all in all no problems.
Except Shadow, but we can discuss her another time.

Do we actually create problems?


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## Chai

What an interesting question 

I definitely feel like most of Tchai's ''issues'' are directly due to my lack of abilities in training and guiding him. For example, Tchai's parents are dog and human neutral (huge factor that attracted me to that litter), as well as his grandparents, but I have a 14 month old who fixates on dogs and loses all concentration. Many of Tchai's siblings are now in SAR and border control/security/narcotics detection training programs, demonstrating their ability to focus under immense distraction. I believe that I over did it with socialisation when he was younger, among other things, and inadvertently trained him to highly value other dogs. 

He's definitely getting better, but we work hard at it every day. I do believe that I failed him in that regard, and wasted some of the genetic advantages I had with him.


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## MadLab

I think it is a abit of both, nature and nurture. People do probably go over the top with nilif and 'training' and are encouraged to do so on the net as that is the main advice for newbies.

Discipline and manners would be more important to me.

IMO It is good to teach a dog there are consequences to there actions and when you say so they stop whatever they are doing.

Once they know that then they can be great pets with little effort.

I would agree that people create problems from simply not having enough experience or knowledge to deal with issues as they arise. 

Once you know what your doing the dogs respond to you accordingly.

Everyone is different but i like training my dogs. I am not at any high level as a trainer but am simply interested in it as a hobby. I would see huge benifits for dogs with an owner who is able to train the basics and deal with issues with little stress.


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## newlie

Very interesting question.

Part of it, I would think, would be expectations. For example, if I could wave a magic wand and make Newlie different, I would not do it, I love him just the way he is. But I can see that if he ended up with different people, he might not have fit the bill for them. If someone had wanted a hard dog, they would have been very disappointed
and it is possible that for others, he may have been too much dog. Either way, he could have ended up back in a shelter because he did not meet somebody's expectations.

T o go along with the original question, I will pose another thought. Newlie's trainer has commented to me before that "nice people usually end up with nice dogs." He has fostered and adopted some dogs with serious issues before himself, he is evidently known among other trainers in our area for being good with biters, so I guess in some cases, he means the end results. What do you think?


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## llombardo

Sabis mom said:


> I want to have an honest discussion about the nature of dogs. Dozens of GSD's, well over a couple hundred dogs total, all sizes, breeds, ages and genders and they all ended up pretty much the same with their own personalities of course.
> 
> I have had no real issues with house training, or resource guarding. Very few fights. Only my Dane was destructive and difficult to crate train, but a sweeter natured dog I have never met.
> Am I the luckiest person in the world? Or is there more to it then that?
> I am horrible at training, I'm lazy and I sort of don't care. I seem to get to the stage were they aren't total ass hats and then I drop it. But in spite of that they all seem fine. I tend to have conversations with them, rather then barking commands at them. I have had multitudes of other critters around them and it's been mostly ok. I routinely take food and toys away, and in some cases have actually reached in and pulled stuff from their mouths, and I promote playing with their food. I manage some behaviors and stop others but all in all every dog that has been in my house is stable and well behaved. Fosters leave my house crate trained, house broken, knowing sit, stay, come, down and walking on a loose leash. They take food nicely and sit for their dinner. No dog issues or nasty behavior, like I said all in all no problems.
> Except Shadow, but we can discuss her another time.
> 
> Do we actually create problems?


We are pretty much on the same page. I read what you wrote and I would have wrote the same thing. Just the other day Apollo stole his leg quarter, he wasn't suppise to do that, I told him to drop it and he did but Midnite picked it up, Midnite is not great at dropping stuff, so I physically took the leg quarter out of his mouth without so much a peep. It goes back further for me, I've never had issues with really any dog. When I was younger I can't even count how many dogs I picked up off the street and brought into the police station. Lots of them found homes. A few wouldn't let anyone near them except me, if they had a problem the police brought me back there. That never went away, I still have no fear of dogs running and will pick them up. I have a serious connections with dogs in general. They bond to me quickly. I do t expect them to be perfect, I like a little challenge but at the end of the day I think they know and they all return that tenfold. I can't speak genetically because most of my dogs come from I don't know where and they are all treated the same. I also think that they could very well act differently in a different home. They just respond well to me. I let them run and play, they walk well on a leash, are a dream in the car and they do dog stuff. I don't take that away from them and in return they respect that and listen when needed.


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## DutchKarin

I think it is both but I think there are people who are very good about attuning to the individual dog and working at that dog's pace and with the unique way they are thinking and reacting. There are some videos on YouTube by Stony Dennis. He talks about his litter of malinois and goes through each 8 week old puppy and says, "Well this one is confident and I can do this with training and this one is hesitant so I do this and this one is very dominant so I do that." Each puppy is treated as an individual and he works to bring out the best. He has a fluid way about adjusting his expectations, his timing, and pace. I think some of you are probably very natural about that, don't even think about it, think like the individual dog and work with that. Others have preset expectations about what their dog SHOULD be and lack the intuition, talent and training to attune to the individual unique dog standing in front of them. 

I worked very hard with a very natural trainer with my complicated Dutch. But my trainer just knows him and my dog responded very differently to him. I've worked hard and I think I am much better at reading the individual dog now. Our rescue GSD has an unknown early life of baggage. I'm learning to work within her unique way of understanding the world (very different from my confident Dutch) but for me it is work for others natural.

I think especially in our media driven world and especially with some breeds like the GSD, expectations on dogs are often too high too early and too rigid. We see that on this forum all the time.

Just my two cents.


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## dogma13

I agree with DutchKarin.Some people are better "dog listeners" than others.If you are able to read each other and respect the dog's individuality,nature takes a back seat to nurture.


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## Sabis mom

Thanks for all the responses!

This question has always puzzled me. And honestly it baffles me when I read all these questions about simple stuff like house and crate training. I have never done 'cookie cutter' training. I treat the dogs as individuals, respect their individual needs and get it done.
I was the kid that had pet squirrels, foxes and birds, basically anything I could catch came home with me. I was the one that got put up on the 'hard case' horses. I never met an animal I didn't like, and they like me. My belief is that if you genuinely care they sense that and respond. 
Specific to this breed, I hear horror stories about some of these pups and I just don't understand how I could be that lucky.


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## dogma13

I know what you mean Sabis Mom.People coming on here with brand new puppies clueless and freaking out.Makes me afraid for those poor dogs.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Sometimes a post is just a snapshot of a day in the life of that person and their dog. Sometimes i have a bad day which generally means my dogs are having bad days. if I wrote a post yesterday about Charlie and her training you would have recommended I have an inanimate object as a pet. I am no trainer ,Im not sure how Daisy got house trained ,Lucky came trained and Charlie has it down pretty well.I just remember Dasiy suddenly just got it and it wasnt an issue same w/ recall and sit. She never liked the down command and stay.She knew stop though.. Charlie is my first dog who has a sightimpairment and training is more difficult. Its different and I find myself second guessing alot. Daisy was smart too smart somtimes. Lucky wanted to be with me so he behaved well. Chevy and Thunder just wanted to relax by the fire or around us on the couch or outside. They were seniors who just wanted quiet. No real training just enough to exist together. Charlie is a different ballgame all together then my others . I bond w/ my dogs and Iam the one they want to be with but I am no dog whisperer and yesterday I was the dogyeller.


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## Sabis mom

Dogyeller I like that.

I can say I have my moments, I remember having 21 dogs, 7 cats and a chicken in my house and someone was doing something bad and I walked in and yelled 'kennel'! In half a second there was not an animal in sight, lol. Some crates had 3 dogs, some had none, nobody was in their crate, but every dog was out of sight. I laugh now, at that time I was thinking about dog fur jackets. I don't even remember what they were doing, I think it was just a dumped plant and everyone playing with the dirt, or something similarly dumb.
Maybe it is as simple as that I have low expectations. I expect barking, whining, shedding, spilled drinks, muddy floors, ruined furniture and bruises so when they happen they aren't tragedies.
My Dane was deaf, so I can sympathize with training a special dog. Twenty years ago people didn't train deaf dogs they killed them so I had no support, no advice, no guidelines. She turned out fabulous, but I won't take any credit. She was just a great dog.


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## dogma13

More like realistic expectations?I'm curious as to what you would do to get your Dane's attention when you needed him to look at you.I read somewhere about a woman who used a laser pointer to communicate with her deaf dog.I had a sheltie who was deaf in his senior years so I would walk around in front of him to get his attention.If he was some distance away outside I would wave my arms around until he noticed,then talk to him with hand signals.I would have to figure out a more efficient way if I had a deaf dog for many years.


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## Sabis mom

Inside I tapped my foot on the floor, outside I used a flashing light or a small mirror. In spite of having figured out by 10 weeks old that if she turned her head she could ignore me, she went on to learn over 100 signs and signals, she was a certified therapy dog and she never met a stranger. She was the steadiest, sweetest, most intuitive dog I have ever met and to this day when I talk about my deaf Dane, I get the 'Oh! You were Freeways mom. ' response. She was well known and much loved.


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## newlie

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Sometimes a post is just a snapshot of a day in the life of that person and their dog. Sometimes i have a bad day which generally means my dogs are having bad days. if I wrote a post yesterday about Charlie and her training you would have recommended I have an inanimate object as a pet. I am no trainer ,Im not sure how Daisy got house trained ,Lucky came trained and Charlie has it down pretty well.I just remember Dasiy suddenly just got it and it wasnt an issue same w/ recall and sit. She never liked the down command and stay.She knew stop though.. Charlie is my first dog who has a sightimpairment and training is more difficult. Its different and I find myself second guessing alot. Daisy was smart too smart somtimes. Lucky wanted to be with me so he behaved well. Chevy and Thunder just wanted to relax by the fire or around us on the couch or outside. They were seniors who just wanted quiet. No real training just enough to exist together. Charlie is a different ballgame all together then my others . I bond w/ my dogs and Iam the one they want to be with but I am no dog whisperer and yesterday I was the dogyeller.


Hahaha! Too funny!! We all have days like that...

I do think that there are people who have a gift with animals, a special affinity that allows them to understand and communicate in a way that's exceptional. Education and experience are just the icing on the cake.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Most dogs breeds are purpose bred to exhibit specific behavioral qualities. This is one of the things that give us dog breeds. To believe that dogs are primarily how they are raised would denote that breed specific behaviors are of little to no consequence. If that were true, all dogs of all breeds would possess equal ability to hunt rabbits, to be police K9s, to point birds, etc.

Despite raising my dogs all the same, their genetics demand that I treat and train them differently. I think the most that people can do is enhance or suppress a dog's natural behaviors.


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## dogma13

Sabis mom said:


> Inside I tapped my foot on the floor, outside I used a flashing light or a small mirror. In spite of having figured out by 10 weeks old that if she turned her head she could ignore me, she went on to learn over 100 signs and signals, she was a certified therapy dog and she never met a stranger. She was the steadiest, sweetest, most intuitive dog I have ever met and to this day when I talk about my deaf Dane, I get the 'Oh! You were Freeways mom. ' response. She was well known and much loved.


That's really wonderful.Thanks for sharing that story.Freeway was so lucky to have you.


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## Jackal

Nature vs Nurture.

for me, nature comes *first*. Hence why I am only interested in working line genes. I want a pup that is environmentally sound, is capable of working. Has masses of prey drive and strong nerve. At 8 weeks when its selected, these attributes are evident. I get pups from working parents. To enhance the likelihood that a pup that can work - will be produced. But in a litter of 8 pups on average, not all will make the grade for me. Im a sucker for a pup, so have my trainer or breeder select the right pup for the job i have in mind for it. 

Then from a great genes start point, i can layer *nurture* for its entire life span. 

A few years ago, i took in a mastiff rescue. My first ever non working line dog. Such a bad match for my lifestyle, i knew he was never going to stay forever, but would be re-homed as a pet at some point. 
Mastiff's are as thick as two short planks in comparison to working rotties and GSD's. This was nature. Pure nature. 

Whilst his focus increased, and the bond developed, and obedience came, it was slow going. As the dogs nature, was not to seek company of humans, mastiff's have independent natures. Not pack driven. They attach to a person, rather than a family. 

Nothing wrong with that dog. Just nature of me, does not match that type of dog.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Most dogs breeds are purpose bred to exhibit specific behavioral qualities. This is one of the things that give us dog breeds. To believe that dogs are primarily how they are raised would denote that breed specific behaviors are of little to no consequence. If that were true, all dogs of all breeds would possess equal ability to hunt rabbits, to be police K9s, to point birds, etc.
> 
> Despite raising my dogs all the same, their genetics demand that I treat and train them differently. I think the most that people can do is enhance or suppress a dog's natural behaviors.


I get what you are saying but then why are my GSD's different. I was thinking that most have been rescues and the lineage was not great, but Buds fairly well bred and with some differences in personality he is pretty much like the rest. I guess I tend to be a bit more rigid with Bud, he's more comfortable that way, but even at his worst he wasn't awful. I am just really curious where all these terrible puppies come from.

Sabi chewed up some plastic blocks as a pup.
I had one foster who chewed a couple of books and a sock.
Shadow had a thing about one specific lamp cord.
We called Bud the toy killer, but he never chewed anything else.
Gita chewed one shoe.
I had another foster pup that had some fixation with Kleenex.
This seems pretty minor, and the rest I don't recall chewing up anything.

I have had the odd crate issue but Shadow was the worst and she really wasn't bad.
I don't recall any serious house breaking problems, most of them got in in days.
Just GSDs I've gone through 7 litters, some with mom and some without, 5 or 6 singletons, at least 18 between 2 and 6 months, 7 or 8 between 6 months and a year and 11 between 1 and 2.
That's just the youngsters, and that's mostly rescues from questionable breeding and some really rotten places. 
So am I really lucky?


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## MadLab

> So am I really lucky?


By the sounds of it you have a lot of experience and so your not lucky but naturally attuned to your dogs needs and so they don't have issues.

How hard is it once you know what is an aceptable or not behavior from a pup/dog.

But if I threw you a un submissive,human aggressive pup with fear issues i wonder would you handle it so well. But maybe you've dealth with that kinda dog too. 

Personally I see fear issues with aggression, as something which is not so easy to simply do nothing about and needs a management system in place.


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## dogma13

If you are working with rescue organizations I'm guessing they don't offer you dogs with serious fear/aggression issues in the first place?


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## llombardo

MadLab said:


> By the sounds of it you have a lot of experience and so your not lucky but naturally attuned to your dogs needs and so they don't have issues.
> 
> How hard is it once you know what is an aceptable or not behavior from a pup/dog.
> 
> But if I threw you a un submissive,human aggressive pup with fear issues i wonder would you handle it so well. But maybe you've dealth with that kinda dog too.
> 
> Personally I see fear issues with aggression, as something which is not so easy to simply do nothing about and needs a management system in place.


One day I was driving down the road and I see something in a bush by the railroad tracks, so I stop on the median with blinkers on. It was the littlest, meanest GSD mix puppy I have ever seen. This pup took every opportunity to snap at me and he wasn't playing. It took me a half hour to get the little booger, but I wasn't leaving him. Finally I threw my sweater over him and grabbed in. He rode on the floor of the front seat as far as he could go in the corner, would not look at me at all. Fast forward 2 months, he was placed in a wonderful home with no issues. It took some work but once he figured out that no one was going to hurt him he blossomed.


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## HOBY

Nature vs Nurture......hummmmm....How about nature leads to nurture. First contact was nature in motion which turned into symbiosis via nurturing in its' most primitive form, then to mutual contentment and the forever bond. A content dog is a well nurtured dog.


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## Rolisaac

Sabis mom said:


> . I seem to get to the stage were they aren't total ass hats and then I drop it.


LOL! We are headed towards that stage now  

I believe it is both nature and nurture. As previously posted dogs are bred for certain traits and are known for these things behaviorally. If you leave a dog in a bad situation it isn't going to be the same dog that it could be in the right situation.


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## WIBackpacker

Great topic.

While I'm not old enough yet to look back on decades and decades of dogs, it seems from my experience that both play a part. 

Certain dogs have key genetic ingredients, instincts, drives. _*Nature*_. 

Then over the course of their life, they're given specific windows of opportunities to develop, determined by their owner(s), and daily manners and attitudes that are enforced, or not enforced..... _*Nurture*_.

I think *Nature* sets the template for the skillsets of the dog. Just like people who are born that are naturally artistic. You can teach anyone how to hold a paintbrush and how to mix colors, but without inner artistic skill, I don't think they'll ever be a truly creative artist. That, to me, is nature. Some dogs don't have instinct to herd, or hunt, or dozens of other things. You can teach them to run in a circle, or chase a bird on command, but they're not really doing the task because they don't naturally have the right ingredients. 

On the other hand, I think *Nurture* can determine much of the personality and daily habits of the dog. If you are a quiet, calm person, and you expect sane behavior in your household, you'll raise your canines accordingly, regardless of their aptitudes. 

The best analogy I can come up with: An artist, a brain surgeon, a politician, and a linebacker can all sit down at the same dinner table and enjoy a nice meal - _if_ they have been taught the same dining manners. _Nurture_.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sabis mom said:


> I get what you are saying but then why are my GSD's different. I was thinking that most have been rescues and the lineage was not great, but Buds fairly well bred and with some differences in personality he is pretty much like the rest. I guess I tend to be a bit more rigid with Bud, he's more comfortable that way, but even at his worst he wasn't awful. I am just really curious where all these terrible puppies come from.
> 
> Sabi chewed up some plastic blocks as a pup.
> I had one foster who chewed a couple of books and a sock.
> Shadow had a thing about one specific lamp cord.
> We called Bud the toy killer, but he never chewed anything else.
> Gita chewed one shoe.
> I had another foster pup that had some fixation with Kleenex.
> This seems pretty minor, and the rest I don't recall chewing up anything.
> 
> I have had the odd crate issue but Shadow was the worst and she really wasn't bad.
> I don't recall any serious house breaking problems, most of them got in in days.
> Just GSDs I've gone through 7 litters, some with mom and some without, 5 or 6 singletons, at least 18 between 2 and 6 months, 7 or 8 between 6 months and a year and 11 between 1 and 2.
> That's just the youngsters, and that's mostly rescues from questionable breeding and some really rotten places.
> So am I really lucky?


Not all puppies in a litter will inherit traits to the same degree and not all breeders are breeding with the same goals in mind. I know of breeders who breed with SAR in mind, others for sport, others for police/PPD, some for show, and some with no goals, each venue requiring varying degrees of different traits and although reputable breeders breed for consistency, not all pups will inherit the same traits to the same degree.

Example: Almost all workingline dogs today will exhibit some type of prey drive, but not all will possess the trait to the same degree.


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## Whiteshepherds

WIBackpacker said:


> Great topic.
> it seems from my experience that both play a part.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbupthe entire post)


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## Sabis mom

MadLab said:


> By the sounds of it you have a lot of experience and so your not lucky but naturally attuned to your dogs needs and so they don't have issues.
> 
> How hard is it once you know what is an aceptable or not behavior from a pup/dog.
> 
> But if I threw you a un submissive,human aggressive pup with fear issues i wonder would you handle it so well. But maybe you've dealth with that kinda dog too.
> 
> Personally I see fear issues with aggression, as something which is not so easy to simply do nothing about and needs a management system in place.


 Been there, done that. Bud was so bad when I brought him home I was the only one that could get near him, and even that was risky.
Shadow is fear aggressive/defensive. She doesn't run, she attacks. And I have had her all her life so this is genetic.



dogma13 said:


> If you are working with rescue organizations I'm guessing they don't offer you dogs with serious fear/aggression issues in the first place?


 I was the rescue. Or at least I was part of the group that formed it. Privately funded, so we could do what we wanted. So yes, I took a few if in my opinion they could be helped. Some can't. 
I also used to back door dogs out of shelters, if I could help them.


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## dogma13

Ok!So you have dealt with dogs with issues and what you are saying is they aren't so horrible and insurmountable as others seem to think?A little or a lot of tlc and structure so they aren't ass hats.I think it's because you have the intuition and skillsMany others do not so they panic or just feel helpless.


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## llombardo

dogma13 said:


> Ok!So you have dealt with dogs with issues and what you are saying is they aren't so horrible and insurmountable as others seem to think?A little or a lot of tlc and structure so they aren't ass hats.I think it's because you have the intuition and skillsMany others do not so they panic or just feel helpless.


I think many others just don't want to put in the time to get the results. They think dogs are disposable and they can get a better one without the aggravation. This would not be for people here but in general.


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## dogma13

llombardo said:


> I think many others just don't want to put in the time to get the results. They think dogs are disposable and they can get a better one without the aggravation. This would not be for people here but in general.


That's true.Or tie them to a dog house,feed them once a day,call it good.I know of too many people like that.


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## WIBackpacker

llombardo said:


> I think many others just don't want to put in the time to get the results. They think dogs are disposable and they can get a better one without the aggravation. *This would not be for people here but in general*.


 That's a really good point. It's rather easy (as least for me) to forget that this board represents a specific subset of GSD owners. We each deliberately took time to seek out, review, register, set up personal profiles, and participate in a breed specific online forum _with our free time_. 

That's really not your "average Joe" casual dog owner, in my humble opinion.


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## Sabis mom

Shadow helps with the chores. She takes the clothes out of the dryer and puts them in a basket. She is trying to put clothes in the wash but she isn't tall enough. She helps pull weeds. She tries to help make the bed.

This is nurture not nature. I am not teaching her, she watches and wants to help.

My point with this thread was kind of can we develop an instruction manual of some kind?


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## dogma13

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow helps with the chores. She takes the clothes out of the dryer and puts them in a basket. She is trying to put clothes in the wash but she isn't tall enough. She helps pull weeds. She tries to help make the bed.
> 
> This is nurture not nature. I am not teaching her, she watches and wants to help.
> 
> My point with this thread was kind of can we develop an instruction manual of some kind?


That's a very interesting ideaHow would you go about it?


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## Cassidy's Mom

Sabis mom said:


> Sabi chewed up some plastic blocks as a pup.
> I had one foster who chewed a couple of books and a sock.
> Shadow had a thing about one specific lamp cord.
> We called Bud the toy killer, but he never chewed anything else.
> Gita chewed one shoe.
> I had another foster pup that had some fixation with Kleenex.
> This seems pretty minor, and the rest I don't recall chewing up anything.





> So am I really lucky?


Haven't read everything yet, but as far as destructive chewing goes -YES, you are really lucky! We've had dogs that were never big chewers (Dena & Keefer), and were trustworthy around the house, even from a young age. 

We had another (Cassidy) that_ literally _could not be left unsupervised for more than a minute or two or she'd be merrily shredding something. She seemed to grow out of the chewing phase, only to have a second chewing phase several months later. She did ultimately outgrow destructive chewing again, but boy was she a challenge until then. And our first GSD Sneaker had a pretty bad chewing phase when young, but outgrew it by a year/year and a half, and never chewed up anything again. 

And then there's Halo.... :help: Seven years old, and just as incorrigible as ever. :wub:


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## Sabis mom

dogma13 said:


> That's a very interesting ideaHow would you go about it?


 I don't know! I'm really not that smart But with all the dogs that have passed through my door there has to be something more then luck. 
And Llombardo has bunches of dogs as well, she's saying the same thing. I know that dogs need training and structure, but how far will love and nurturing go toward smoothing that road?


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## Sabis mom

I think the root cause may be that people without the background over think things. They get so hung up on we need to do this, and we must have that, that they forget to breathe.


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## Jenny720

Each dog one has there own strengths and its up to the owner to discover that strength and build on it. I think one must know how to improvise and that comes with experience and for some a natural ability. There is no Manuel that can truly teach this. Most dogs conform to the family's routine etc. there are many inexperienced dog owners with great dogs. There are some dogs that are strongly mismatched. There are dogs have acquired or born with certain behaviors that help knowledgable dog owners go to the next level.the ones that are placed with none experienced owners who are not willing to put the time in -go to the animal shelter. There sometimes way to much thought and rigidity that adds to much pressure resulting in stress which results in only frustrating. Everyone has different priorities and if they put the time, patience and effort into acheiving what one wants -it will happen. No dog is perfect and needs guidance and love to help bring out the best in their dog and a lot of know how to manage the worst.


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## WateryTart

I don't know. It's an interesting question.

I chalk up a lot to nature, but my experience is limited. I got a puppy with a beautiful base temperament. That kind of temperament was a goal of the breeding program from whence she came. I had been led to expect pretty much exactly what I got, and the prediction/match was actually kind of scary in its accuracy! I have managed not to mess her up, and she is still a very nice dog. She isn't perfect, but she's pretty good.

I think in general, and in the ideal case, it would be understanding what's innately there and tailoring the nurturing to bring out the best of that individual dog. Realistically, there's a wide variety regarding how environment/nurture interacts with nature.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Nature beats nurture nearly every time » The Spectator


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## dogfaeries

Sabis mom said:


> I am horrible at training, I'm lazy and I sort of don't care. I seem to get to the stage were they aren't total ass hats and then I drop it. But in spite of that they all seem fine. I tend to have conversations with them, rather then barking commands at them. I have had multitudes of other critters around them and it's been mostly ok. I routinely take food and toys away, and in some cases have actually reached in and pulled stuff from their mouths, and I promote playing with their food. I manage some behaviors and stop others but all in all every dog that has been in my house is stable and well behaved...
> 
> ...Do we actually create problems?



I feel like I could've written this. 

I've had dogs all my life, which is a considerable amount of time seeing that I turned 60 yesterday.  Herding dogs, working dogs, terriers, toys, hounds. While they have these hardwired traits particular to their breeds, I've noticed a similarity among the dogs that I have raised from puppies. They have all been bold, pushy, and funny. From Dobe to GSD to sheltie to IG to yorkie, they all have been more than a little sassy. I love that in a dog. I loved that Sage talked back. I love that Russell LOVES life so much that he might explode. I loved that my IG Zelda could outsmart me. Considering that these are all completely different breeds, I can only conclude that it's something I'm doing.

I absolutely feel like a major slacker when it comes to training my dogs. I get on here and everyone's puppy could practically get their CD when they are 3 months old. Russell is almost three and doesn't know the sit command, LOL. He's not unruly though. They all have manners. We have a calm household, and they just seem to follow suit. 

My favorite line in this whole thread? ---> _I seem to get to the stage were they aren't total ass hats and then I drop it. _ Love it.


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## Nigel

Sabis mom said:


> I want to have an honest discussion about the nature of dogs. Dozens of GSD's, well over a couple hundred dogs total, all sizes, breeds, ages and genders and they all ended up pretty much the same with their own personalities of course.
> 
> I have had no real issues with house training, or resource guarding. Very few fights. Only my Dane was destructive and difficult to crate train, but a sweeter natured dog I have never met.
> Am I the luckiest person in the world? Or is there more to it then that?
> I am horrible at training, I'm lazy and I sort of don't care. I seem to get to the stage were they aren't total ass hats and then I drop it. But in spite of that they all seem fine. I tend to have conversations with them, rather then barking commands at them. I have had multitudes of other critters around them and it's been mostly ok. I routinely take food and toys away, and in some cases have actually reached in and pulled stuff from their mouths, and I promote playing with their food. I manage some behaviors and stop others but all in all every dog that has been in my house is stable and well behaved. Fosters leave my house crate trained, house broken, knowing sit, stay, come, down and walking on a loose leash. They take food nicely and sit for their dinner. No dog issues or nasty behavior, like I said all in all no problems.
> Except Shadow, but we can discuss her another time.
> 
> *Do we actually create problems*?


We have a FB page for training info. DW ended up joining a few Gsd groups and after seeing some of the stuff people post, I have no doubt humans are the problem the majority of the time.


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## selzer

I think we do create problems in dogs. Often our first dogs are really messed up. Probably because we didn't have a clue, and they taught us loads. Subsequent dogs are usually easier, not so much because we bought them from someone better, but because we did not repeat mistakes we made with the first one without realizing that the learning took place.

As we become less concerned, more relaxed, and have more realistic expectations for our pups/dogs, and have better discipline of our own selves with regard to our dogs, issues go down to zilch. 

Yes, I think we create problems dogs have.

I think the great push to socialize dogs causes issues. People who are scared to death of making a mistake, are out there pushing their pups at everything while their pup has no confidence at all in their person. Of course we are creating problems. 

Good breeders who have waiting lists of repeat customers, rarely have trouble with their pups, not so much because their pups are better than those around them, but because the owners are experienced. Most GSDs in the hands of people with good dog sense and experience do great. GSDs in the hands of newbies have more trouble, but a good dog can usually bring their person through this. Some people don't learn through experience, and this is why I get so wigged out about people taking responsibility for their dogs getting out and running loose, for people supposedly having oops litters, for people who have allowed their dogs to bite or own a dog that has bitten. If we do not take responsibility for our actions or inaction, if we blame the dog, or the guy speeding down the road, or the cop that shot the dog, or the hunter that shot the dog for running deer, or the farmer who shot the dog on his land, another dog will not be safe.


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## llombardo

Does anyone with multiple dogs of different breeds notice that they pick up traits of the other breed? I swear Brennan the golden thinks he is a GSD and his main partner in crime as a pup was Midnite. I've caught him herding, he is super high ball driven and plays like a GSD. I think he thinks like a GSD(all his trainers said he is super smart) but is happier then any golden I ever met. Within the same breeds I see they learn from each other. Apollo has a more bossy personality like Robyn but he doesn't attempt to use it on Robyn. Tannor had trouble swimming and Brennan went out with him and taught him, next thing I know Tannor is swimming like a pro. Misty taught all of them how to use their butts in play. I can see it all over her face when they use that move on her, she doesn't like it. So while I work with each dog and focus on them individually and what they need, they get guidance from the older dogs. I think my older guys help me mold the younger ones. By the time the next group comes in, the younger guys will be the new older ones and the circle will continue.


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## dogfaeries

I raised an Italian Greyhound puppy with an adult Doberman. That was the craftiest little IG I ever had. She used her brain. The other iggies? Not going to set the world on fire.


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## Nigel

My 4 are all gsds, but they still learn from each other. Ranger likes to ram into the others during play. My girls never did this until he brought that to the table. This is also how Ranger ended up needing a tplo. 

Ollie likes to "stomp" on things, kids, but mostly the other dogs. He rears up and takes a quick jab with one or both front feet in an attempt to get someone to play with or chase him. Our girl Tuke picked this up and now she does it to antagonize the others. I went to do some heel work with her last night (basement) and while I have a small wood box made up for this, I didn't feel like going outside to get it, so used a small cardboard box with a few towels inside. It would of worked, but when I called her into position she reared up and stomped it, ok let's try that again, stomp, stomp, gone, we just worked on some turns instead.


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## Sabis mom

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nature beats nurture nearly every time » The Spectator


Yes, but that's discussing things like IQ, artistic ability and predisposition to certain behaviors. Not attitude and personality.



dogfaeries said:


> I feel like I could've written this.
> 
> I've had dogs all my life, which is a considerable amount of time seeing that I turned 60 yesterday.  Herding dogs, working dogs, terriers, toys, hounds. While they have these hardwired traits particular to their breeds, I've noticed a similarity among the dogs that I have raised from puppies. *They have all been bold, pushy, and funny. From Dobe to GSD to sheltie to IG to yorkie,* they all have been more than a little sassy. I love that in a dog. I loved that Sage talked back. I love that Russell LOVES life so much that he might explode. I loved that my IG Zelda could outsmart me. Considering that these are all completely different breeds, I can only conclude that it's something I'm doing.
> 
> I absolutely feel like a major slacker when it comes to training my dogs. I get on here and everyone's puppy could practically get their CD when they are 3 months old. Russell is almost three and doesn't know the sit command, LOL. He's not unruly though. They all have manners. We have a calm household, and they just seem to follow suit.


My first dog ever was a Yorkie, bold as brass, sassy and outgoing. Couple of Collie crosses, bunches of Terriers and mixes, several Staffies, two Sheties, a Poodle, a Dobe, a Rotti, a Dane, an Elkhound, a Wolfhound, a Chessie, a Goldie, a Lab, a couple Coonies and some True Blue Mystery Mutts. They all had that same sweet, silly, chatty, adventurous personality. I think you and I are related.



llombardo said:


> Does anyone with multiple dogs of different breeds notice that they pick up traits of the other breed? I swear Brennan the golden thinks he is a GSD and his main partner in crime as a pup was Midnite. I've caught him herding, he is super high ball driven and plays like a GSD. I think he thinks like a GSD(all his trainers said he is super smart) but is happier then any golden I ever met. Within the same breeds I see they learn from each other. Apollo has a more bossy personality like Robyn but he doesn't attempt to use it on Robyn. Tannor had trouble swimming and Brennan went out with him and taught him, next thing I know Tannor is swimming like a pro. Misty taught all of them how to use their butts in play. I can see it all over her face when they use that move on her, she doesn't like it. So while I work with each dog and focus on them individually and what they need, they get guidance from the older dogs. I think my older guys help me mold the younger ones. By the time the next group comes in, the younger guys will be the new older ones and the circle will continue.


Yup they all act like morons, and they teach the newbies. But here's a kicker for you. Along with being nanny to bunches of pups, Sabi looked after a couple of kittens, a couple of goats and a baby jackrabbit. They ALL behaved like dogs. Couple ounces of jackbunny running to the door to confront visitors and chasing a rolling ball. The baby robins just behaved like birds but they did follow her around and sleep on her. The chicken that my Dane had attacked an intruder in the backyard while the dogs were in their runs. Point is if another species can adopt dog like behavior is it unreasonable to think that different breeds of dog will behave in a similar fashion if afforded the same upbringing?


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## Sabis mom

In case you all thought I might be kidding. Sabs and her Steve.


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## Jenny720

There is no doubt a lot of behavior is learned depending on the individual surroundings and upbringing. I think genetics also plays a role of capability. We had a parakeet growing up-officer bird. Great name for a great watch bird. He learned to chirp from our dogs who barked when ever someone came onto the property. Officer bird became the first one who alerted when someone was on our property then the dogs would chime in after. We have a horse a nearby barn every time we go there and its time for my daughter and I to leave -our horse would always lick the stall bars. Throughout the years he has had three different horses that were in the stall next to him. Each one eventually started licking the stall bars along with our horse every time when we left. Now after almost a year the horse behind our horses stall just started licking the bars when we leave. So every time we leave our horse, the horse next to him and behind his stall all lick the stall bars. Years ago my kids watched the movie air bud. They made many attempts to teach our chihuahua -topper to play fetch with no success. Years later when we got our german shepherd-max we taught him how to play fetch. Our chihuahua watched us play many hours of fetch with our german shepherd Our little chihuahua taught himself how to play fetch and showed us himself that he knows how to play just by watching us play fetch with our gsd. Sabis mom- that is the most priceless picture


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## HOBY

We humans use a dogs intuitive abilities which is genetic from nature and we nurture that in the dog to get the right job done. We do that knowingly and unknowingly. From the dogs perspective, anyone ever tell you, "that dog has you trained?" Talk about being plugged into each other.


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## WIBackpacker

Sabis mom said:


> View attachment 329394
> 
> 
> In case you all thought I might be kidding. Sabs and her Steve.


That is a _great _picture, I love it. I used to have a huge Flemish Giant rabbit that was a magnet of friendship to all species, it was the strangest thing. He hung out with chickens (and snuggled the baby chicks to keep them warm just like hens do), and enjoyed hanging out on the couch watching TV with my GSD, among other things. I never had a problem with dogs chasing him and the cats avoided him, largely (I think) because he acted like a dog and I sort of treated him like one when he was very young (crate/interaction/exercise/etc).

To the original topic at hand.... I think it would be a monumental challenge to create instructions of that sort, essentially it's on par with creating a parenting manual. An infinite number of variables, quite daunting really.

I do think some humans have an easier time developing intuitive relationships with dogs (and other species), because they are naturally intuitive people themselves. And _that_ might be the nature of the _person_, not just the nature of the dog.

Often, those seem to be the (intuitive) individuals who chose to surround themselves with animals from childhood through adulthood. They trained the family dog, they had as many other pets as parents would allow, they helped rescue broken wild critters in the yard. Some people are naturally at ease around dogs, just like some people are naturally at ease around horses, etc. A person close to me was involved in rehab of injured wild birds/waterfowl, I ended up involved, and now I'm of the opinion that the same holds true for wildlife people. Some individuals are just _good_ at working with animals, and are inherently in tune with what's going on in the critter's mind.

So now that I've thought about it some more, I'm of the opinion that:

*Nature of the Person* (is of equal importance to) the *Nature of the Dog*.

Add *Nurture*. The result is your *Relationship*.


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