# Dog Whisperer or Victoria Stillwell?



## bethandglen

I have seen both of these shows, like both their methods (although sometimes the Dog Whisperer is a little confusing to me) which one do you think is better? I want to read some books by them if I can, surprisingly our library has no books by either of them. Just wondering which methods are preferred?

Beth


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## MaggieRoseLee

I like them both and they really are completely different. Ceasar's expertise is sometimes VERY scary dogs and aggression. He seems to really work on 'the dog' to re-teach it how to be. Has the dogs learn to be part of a normal healthy pack and affect their mental outlook from being unbalanced and crazy.

Victoria is much more about teaching the owner/handers. And once they learn what they SHOULD have been doing, and now know a new way, then the dog starts getting it's lessons and learning. She's really about using positive methods, treats, clickers, toys to teach our dogs what to do right.


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## elly1210

How this can start a good conversation









Personally, I enjoy both. At first Victoria drove me nuts and I only watched Cesar but since we have adopted Sonny and joined this board and learned about positive reenforcement and more I really started to take her serious.

I find Victoria's methods of positive reenforcement to really do the trick and have used a lot of it on Sonny and he responds which I love.

I still enjoy watching Cesar, the biggest thing that I have a hard time is living in the now like they both say so say your dog bite you or is a reactive dog with other dogs to be able to completely be erased from your emotions is the hardest thing to do but with practicing with your dog and he gets better you do too.









I also took the advice of the board here and am reading If Bones would Fall from the Sky and ordered Controlled Unleased (I know that is off topic).


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## eggo520

I have been a huge Dog Whisperer fan for a couple of years now, but lately I'm starting to really enjoy watching Victoria's training methods. In addition to being creative with her methods, she seems to be very much about teaching the dog HOW to behave in addition to teaching it about its unwanted behaviors. I think this is SO important!







I am one of those people who often gets frustrated when my dogs don't behave like I want them to...but it's easy to forget that they won't know what that is unless I teach them! Just goes to show how important it is that we as owners have the right mindset about our dogs' behaviors. I watch Victoria whenever I get the chance!


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## bethandglen

Thanks guys, I was leaning towards Victoria's methods too, Caesar is fun to watch but I for our needs I think Victoria would work better. I would love to have Victoria come and teach my mom's dogs a thing or two! They are little but totally out of control!

Beth


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## Lauri & The Gang

I do not care for either one of the SHOWS. 

I think their shows create a 'it only takes 30 minutes to fix your dog' mentality in people and that contributes to dogs being dumped for fixable behavior problems.

I would rather see a show where they follow ONE (or maybe two) dogs and their training (progress AND setbacks) throughout an entire season.

All that being said I much prefer Victoria's methods over Ceasar's.


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## GunnersMom

Personally, I like Victoria better. Her general philosophy and approach seems to mesh better with my own, but I've picked up some useful tips from Cesar, too. 

I think that's often the key. Not one trainer, or one method, is going to work for every person or every dog. Or even for one person/one dog _in every situation_. I think the best thing to do is pick up as much information as you can, from multiple sources, and take what works for your dog (and you) and disregard what doesn't.


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## weber1b

I have not seen Cesar's show, but my sister gave us his book and I read it all. We watch Victoria and I do prefer the overall positive approach. We have already used some of her techniques. While the show is only 60 minutes, I do believe they show that all of these corrections do take time and are never accomplished overnight. I did learn some good things from Cesar's book however.


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## MrLeadFoot

I think they are both good shows, but they're really more about teaching PEOPLE. If people cared to learn more about dogs, their behaviors, what motivates them, etc., people and their pets' lives would be much better.

When I watch those shows, which I love to watch, it simply amazes me that there are so many people in the world that really have no idea what a dog really is, inside and out. Much as I try to be empathic and attempt to put myself in the shows' owners' shoes, I cannot. I can't even imagine what all these people thought when they wanted to get a dog for a pet. Did they really think that their dogs were just going to be animated stuffed animals they could just put in the closet at the end of the day?

I guess that in itself is a naive question on my part, because that's obviously indeed what many people think when getting a dog, because they can't even raise their own children right!

It's going to be a LONG time before you see any books in the library on Cesar and Victoria, because they don't make any money when a library loans a book; they'd much rather make money than share knowledge for free; that's why those shows are on TV.


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## ahlamarana

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootWhen I watch those shows, which I love to watch, it simply amazes me that there are so many people in the world that really have no idea what a dog really is, inside and out. Much as I try to be empathic and attempt to put myself in the shows' owners' shoes, I cannot. I can't even imagine what all these people thought when they wanted to get a dog for a pet. Did they really think that their dogs were just going to be animated stuffed animals they could just put in the closet at the end of the day?


I feel the same way, and a lot of those people say they have had dogs their whole lives, too! It's like, how could you possibly go 6 years just letting your dog pee everywhere in the house?







I can hardly stand to watch those shows because of the owners on them. I hope they don't represent the majority of the pet-owning public.


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## rainydaygoods

> Quote: It's like, how could you possibly go 6 years just letting your dog pee everywhere in the house?


I watched a Victoria Stillwell marathon one day and could not believe this exact thing. One family had a "potty room" for their dogs right off the kitchen! I have no words.

I enjoy both shows and a major lesson that I have taken from both is that so, so often it is really the owners who have issues. When Cesar Milan goes to deal with a scary dog whose owners never - or only rarely - walk it, and he actually has to tell the people that their dogs need to be walked to get rid of excess energy as a *start* to being rehabilitated, it shocks me. How many people give their dogs up and label them as dangerous or troubled because they did not do this BASIC BASIC task of giving it the exercise it needs?! I find his basic emphasis on "exercise, discipline, affection" to be good, as is his emphasis on calm/assertive energy. When I have a calm yet fun and alive and present energy with my Charlie, he is responsive and happy. It seems to make him visibly more secure. I would not use his more controversial techniques (that rollover, etc.) with my dog but I'm also thankful to not have an aggressive dog who needs *rehabilitation* so I don't have to think about more extreme methods. I do believe that he has saved dogs from being put down and educated the owners of those dogs but I hope that most people realize that they don't need to treat their dogs as rehabilitation cases when they are being "normal" dogs.

I prefer Victoria Stillwell's positive methods and I do like the show... but find the owners on that show make me want to throw a Nylabone at the TV. Dogs who don't know their names after two years, use the house as a toilet for YEARS, who don't get walked... I mean, come ON. I find that I feel the owners are neglectful and it makes me sad. I do think that her methods are better for more dogs and I hope that if owners are watching they realize what good some positive, ACTIVE training can do. But most of the owners on the show would probably be better off with fish for pets, seriously.


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## GSDLVR76

I like them both. I use both of methods. But dogs are like people and have different personalities. So Victoria's method may work well with one dog while Ceser's will work better with another.


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## Martie

I like them both. Although I part ways with Cesar occasionally (ie the "alpha roll" - which I think is really dangerous to present), I really like his "calm assertive" message and emphasis on exercise. Too many people treat their dogs as if they are bargaining for behavior. Just last week I watched a woman in a pet store with her dog, singing "sit-sit?-please sit?-sit-sit-sit". The dog continued to bounce around her and she finally gave up, laughing to her friend, "Guess he doesn't want to sit now..."









I like Victoria because she presents some imaginative solutions to problems - and also emphasizes exercise. Some of the owners are amazing - (how do they live that way???).


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## windwalker718

Echoing what others say... 

I worked with "juvenile delinquent" dogs in my group class. Many of the owners were on the brink of dumping their dogs because of behavior problems. They had a short time to see results generally due to an impending problem coming to crisis, or a spouse who was threatening to get rid of the dog. Also worked at a shelter where dogs were on verge of being considered unadoptable and worked with them on specific issues... mostly to gain "Attention" so that other work could be done with them.

The main difference is that Milan's methods, while they work very well, are NOT FOR THE NOVICE TO ATTEMPT!! Most require expert reading of the dog's behavior and conditioned reflexes to avoid getting your face chewed off. I've had a couple dogs who needed this extreme intervention, but I didn't allow the owner to try it until the dog was willing to submit to me. 

Victoria's methods are quite safe for anyone to try, and even if their timing is off, or they do things completely backwards they're not going to be worse off. I also like that she sits the owners down without the dog and forces them to recognize that THEY are the dog's problem, not the other way around.


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## darga19

Personally, i prefer Milan's show. Victoria kind of annoys me...not that her methods don't work. 

I use a combo of Milan's methods and positive reinforcement to train my dogs...it's worked very well so far. I think people should research training techniques from multiple sources and test to see which works best. All dogs are different.


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## southerncharm

Victoria is a nut...no trainer should ever wear those ridiculous boots while working with dogs. For a while she didn't even OWN a dog! She does not know how to properly communicate with her clients. She often looses her cool and is unprofessional. This list could go on and on...

I truly respect Cesar. Even if I may not choose to use some of his methods, most of them make sense and WORK. Victoria is 'purely positive' and many of her methods are not going to produce SOLID, lasting results. I have no problem using food occasionally to teach a dog a certain command if it is TRULY needed, but I do not believe in shoving food in a dog's face constantly to teach them everything.

The concept that you can properly train a dog 'purely' with positive reinforcement is a complete joke. Imagine raising a child without ever correcting them...you'd have a spoiled brat. I believe in creating a proper motivational balance with both praise and correction. That balance will differ based on the individual dog. And while I think Victoria needs to use more correction in her training methods, I think Cesar needs to use more praise in his. 

No trainer is perfect, and no training method is perfect for every dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:I think their shows create a 'it only takes 30 minutes to fix your dog' mentality in people and that contributes to dogs being dumped for fixable behavior problems.


While they do have to cram the show into an hour and you do usually see a big improvement... I feel Victoria's show does a great job as going back having her see footage of where the people are still having issues and problems when she's not around, so she returns for some fine tuning. And I think there is always a follow up a few weeks later so she can also see how dogs/people actually are doing when she returns.

I've also heard her say MANY times that training takes times, the owners will have to keep up the good work, and IF they do things will progress. 

Due to Milan's scary agressive dog, the lack of footage of all the weeks of training and specifics of all the work he does is much more concerning for me. He is REALLY wonderful and has a gift with this type of dog. But the 'how' of his training and all the subtleties with his observation with the aggressions cause me alot more worries if I was at home and trying to 'fix' my dog the same way.


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## southerncharm

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> Due to Milan's scary agressive dog, the lack of footage of all the weeks of training and specifics of all the work he does is much more concerning for me.


Which one of Milan's dogs is a 'scary aggressive dog'?


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote: Which one of Milan's dogs is a 'scary aggressive dog'?


Too funny!!!!









Clearly I MEANT (though didn't write it well) the ones he goes to the homes of and then has to 'fix'. Though I will say, I believe that some of the dogs he currently has in his huge pack USED to be scary aggressive dogs, until he did rehabilitate them.....

I sometimes watch the setup for his shows, with the owners and the dogs they've had for years that are so out of control I just cringe and thing OH MY GOSH! The fact Ceasar calmly comes in, deals with the situation and makes it better is amazing. I just think HIS skills and talents end up under-rated due to time constraints. Because he is truly amazing, and I don't think the rest of us can say the same about our natural abilty around some of the most aggressive dogs he goes to help with.


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## southerncharm

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
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> Quote: Which one of Milan's dogs is a 'scary aggressive dog'?
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> Too funny!!!!
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> Clearly I MEANT (though didn't write it well) the ones he goes to the homes of and then has to 'fix'. Though I will say, I believe that some of the dogs he currently has in his huge pack USED to be scary aggressive dogs, until he did rehabilitate them.....
> 
> I sometimes watch the setup for his shows, with the owners and the dogs they've had for years that are so out of control I just cringe and thing OH MY GOSH! The fact Ceasar calmly comes in, deals with the situation and makes it better is amazing. I just think HIS skills and talents end up under-rated due to time constraints. Because he is truly amazing, and I don't think the rest of us can say the same about our natural abilty around some of the most aggressive dogs he goes to help with.
Click to expand...

LOL I thought that was what you meant...just checkin!


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## Timber1

Your points are well taken. I do rescue work, and every now and then get a dog that is just mean and aggressive, probably fear based. The last dog is now beng rehabbed by a professional trainer, that has a herd of dogs almost as large as Cesar's group. The interaction helps, and the relatively rough methods used to get the dog to settle a bit were also helpful. 

I don't mind Victoria, but prefer Caesar. However, ?I am still waiting for the show that discusses a German Shepherd whose behavior is great 99 percent of the time, but every now and then gets very aggressive. You probably guessed, I have one of those dogs


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## southerncharm

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Your points are well taken. I do rescue work, and every now and then get a dog that is just mean and aggressive, probably fear based. The last dog is now beng rehabbed by a professional trainer, that has a herd of dogs almost as large as Cesar's group. The interaction helps, and the relatively rough methods used to get the dog to settle a bit were also helpful.
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> I don't mind Victoria, but prefer Caesar. However, ?I am still waiting for the show that discusses a German Shepherd whose behavior is great 99 percent of the time, but every now and then gets very aggressive. You probably guessed, I have one of those dogs


So the GSD is great most of the time, and then just suddenly flips a switch? Or is there something in particular triggering the aggression? What kind of aggression (who/what is it directed towards)? Not that I can really help from all the way over here in NC, but I'm just curious I guess. Even if Cesar did have a case similar to yours on TV, it doesn't mean that the cause would be same (but I'm sure you know that







), and may be handled differently.


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## Keisha

lol, I wrote out a very long post, but erased it. I like Victoria's methods better








And yes, this can make for a rather heated discussion, so it's best if I just say who I like


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Originally Posted By: Not_Just_A_Doglol, I wrote out a very long post, but erased it. I like Victoria's methods better
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> And yes, this can make for a rather heated discussion, so it's best if I just say who I like


Hey there, nothing stopping your for raving about Victoria and why.... doesn't mean you have to mention Milan at all!


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## Timber1

Your question regarding the aggression is something that I constantly think about. The dog has been to numerous events, nursing homes, and in crowds numbering in the thousands with never a problem. So initially I thought he was just being protective of my property. He loved chasing squirrels, rabbits and deer, but then he chased a jogger and knocked her down, but never bit. So I asked a well known behavior specialist for help. Her advice was it is part of his nature to chase other animals, but be careful when you let him do this this. That was not good advice, and why I am down a bit on most trainers and behavior specialists. 

A few months ago, while on leash he bit this man on the arm. Thankfully, no major damage, but that is when I took him to a trainer I highly respect. 

My work, and the trainer's is to make the dog behave perfectly on my command, regardless of distractions. So we practice that daily, and the dog is getting much better.

I got the dog from a good breeder, and when I take my annual one week vacation he always goes back to her house. She has three kids, he stays in the house with them, and is just great. 

I do not know the answer regarding why he acts this way, because the bite was not about being surprised, someone running by, or protecting my property. We are working with him in controlled situations to help the dog calm down when joggers, people with other dogs come by, etc. 

As strange as this sounds, I have had about 10 GSD's this year because I do rescue, and also had GSD's many years ago. This dog, despite the bite incident, is clearly the best shepherd I have ever had. Protective and faithful, easy to train, very versatile, knows my every move and is good with family and friends. However, for now and perhaps forever he is being tightly controlled. 

Could Caesar or Victoria help. Perhaps, but the other problem is the aggressive is so seldom the dog might just act perfectly around them.


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## wildwolf60

Prefer Cesar over Victoria, she drives me crazy with the outfit, lol! Seriously, I started watching Dog Whisperer and have tried some of his methods and got amazing results with my pups. I like his methods, and he explains behavours to the owners and tries to educate them. I have watched some of Victorias shows, and most of the time it seems as if the owners need rehabilitating, not the dog! I have been able to watch her show more often lately, she does have some good methods, but I don't believe in always using food for motivation either. Depends on the problem you are having I guess. Still think Cesar does a better job though. I like the fact that he keeps a lot of the really problem dogs himself as his pack and works with them. He really cares about their wellbeing. Just my opinion!


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## BJDimock

Timber, your concern is very real, but you haven't said what triggered the bite.
There is a well shown video of a police dog biting a reporter in the face,that when you look at in slow motion, everything is wrong.
It's supposed to be an OMG! Bad Dog video, but when you watch...
The officer and handler of the dog is kneeling, and so is the reporter, making the dog eye level or above (This to my guys means that I'm not entirely in control of the situation.)
The reporter then turns to the dog, places his hands on the dogs neck(in what I'm sure was a friendly gesture) In doing so he places downward pressure on the dog, and you can see it. Dog Done! Dog takes control of a situtation that he felt he needed too.
Look carefully at your situation before you blame your guy!
On that note, and back to this thread....
I think that as annoying as Victoria is, she has better pointers for the "average" dog owner. I also am positive reward based in the training of my pups.
I have picked up great pointers for my harder cases from Milan.


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## Keisha

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
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> Originally Posted By: Not_Just_A_Doglol, I wrote out a very long post, but erased it. I like Victoria's methods better
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> And yes, this can make for a rather heated discussion, so it's best if I just say who I like
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> Hey there, nothing stopping your for raving about Victoria and why.... doesn't mean you have to mention Milan at all!
Click to expand...

Well, it's not that I really hate Milan or anything. I find him a likeable guy, and think he has some good things going for him. But I like the fact that Victoria educates the dog first and foremost. I think in response to the OP's question, read both. Watch both. And read other trainers books as well. Take what you're comfortable with and use what works for the dog above all else. 
I'm just very uncomfortable with some of his methods, and find that although Victoria's methods take longer and more patience, that ultimately the bond between owner and dog will be stronger, and the dog will have learned in a positive way.
Obviously, those techniques may not work for every dog or owner, but I personally prefer those techniques







Read a lot, use what works, discard what doesn't. You can get some good things from both.


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## Timber1

Thanks, but quickly I cannot figure out what triggered the bite. I was standing and waiting to talk to my neighbor, Timber was in a down position on leash, then when the guy started walking toward his truck Timber bit him in the rear. The person said no harm, turned around, and said he dealt with shepherds before. He called Timber over and petted him. Then when he started to move away, Timber bit him on the arm. Fortunately it was winter, and the guy was heavily dressed. 

The incidents prior to that I can understand, but this one is scary, so for now it is more training. What is so disturbing is the dog has met and been petted by literally hundreds of people, including many children. 

So why did the bite occur, I wish I knew.


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## GSD07

Timber1, it's interesting because Yana behaves the same way, 99% of the time she's great and I am very scared of that 1% because I don't know when the switch will go off in her head. When it happens she completely shuts down and doesn't respond to any commands, doesn't react to voice, complete tunnel vision. 

Last week she ran into our neighbors yard (being on a long line and dragging me behind), cornered the neighbor next to the wall and performed a very nice bark and hold rutine into the face of the screaming from fear woman. She stopped barking only when I came over and got a hold of her collar which snapped her out and she became a normal dog again. She knows the neighbors since 8 weeks old, sees them every day. 

Yana is a fearful dog but she's fine in crowds, parks, dog parks, in petsmart, in dog training classes, with children, she has good off leash recall ( I can call her off rabbit chase, for example) but when she gets her moment than she's very scary and I believe she may be dangerous. At those moments it's like she's had no training whatsoever and just reverted to her default behaviour. I am lost, I don't know what to do.


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## Laura H.

I think since Dog Whisperer was on first, I've always been partial to him. I love how the dogs relate to him & vice versa. He has a lot of good advice IMO

I always remember what he says are the main rules
1) Exercise
2) Discipline
3) Love

So many people (myself included







) put No. 3 first too many times.


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## selzer

I read Ceasar's book, now I am reading Victoria's. 

I picked it up at Barnes & Noble yesterday. Maybe I should start my own thread on this. I thought, well, lets just look at it until I am annoyed. 

I like her, but figured the book would be sensationalized with a lot of stuff about rescue. 

I bought the book. I have a bookcase full of dog books, but this one really gives a good impression of what the dog's body language really means. I read through the forward and was kind of impressed with her story. I thumbed through (before I bought it) to get her opinions on speuter. 

She was really good about putting the pros and cons of spaying and neutering. She did say that spaying an aggressive female might make things worse. She did say that early neuter has been linked to problems with growth, joints, and cancer. She did say that no dog should be spayed or neutered to change a behavior without working on the behavior. That I liked. She did put that stupid bit about neutering a dog so it doesn't roam (which I find is rediculous as that in my opinion is a containment issue not a hormone problem). What she said about speuter (which I am for the most part against) did not make me want to spew, saw I bought the book. 

Anyone else check this book out. It's Me or the Dog, how to ...?


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## Timber1

Probably not the forum to respond, but with one exception my guy acts just like yours, aside from my neighbor. He does fine with the guy, but his lab and Tmber have played together since they were pups.

As for Caesar and Victoria, I am starting to ignore them and go with a good trainer. Frankly, most of the stuff they show is basic, and could be resolved by any responsible owner. 

As for Caesar's pack, I have had a dozen rescues this year, and when put in with a pack each rescue dog was fine.


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## TxRider

I have watched Caesar, picked up a couple of good tips, Haven't seen Victoria.

But from what I've seen of Caesar's show he doesn't cover training so much as just how to get your dog balanced and socialized, which is more then many owners are capable of it seems.

You can only get so much from any TV show though, a couple tips maybe. They just can't cover enough in the short time space. The real benefit is showing owners of dogs that it's pretty much always the owners at fault if a dog has terrible behavior and shows it in no uncertain terms and shows what a good trainer can do..

Like he says, he rehabilitates dogs and trains owners and the show always recommends to go find a good trainer and not to try things he does yourself.


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## rjvamp

Victoria  because I like her accent.... i just enjoy the show.


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## onyx'girl

The May Whole Dog Journal interviewed Victoria and I agree with her reasoning, ethics, techniques 100%. She listed her mentors as Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Suzanne Clothier, Jean Donaldson-she knows whats what. In the US she is located in Atlanta and is working with the rescues, has been doing this for her whole life according to the article. Whats not to like? Also stated that in the show problem fixing is portrayed as an instant cure, which she would like to change, but due to timing cannot. You have to read between the lines. Too many of us are into instant gratification. Also put into the mix is the temperament/health issues of puppy mill dogs, and the behavior problems that are rampant in this. Do away with the mills, and many the problems dogs have will go away. People buying them on the net without researching.







In this article, she did bash CM a bit, and I agree with her opinions on that as well. I watch both when I can, anything dog related is interesting to me!! I love Dogtown...


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## Chicagocanine

As far as the two trainers themselves, I find Victoria a little annoying. Cesar himself I don't care about either way but I don't like his methods or the reasons he gives. The reasoning he gives for why things he is doing works versus actual learning theory just do not fit together. I like Victoria's methods better than Cesar's and they actually make sense to me.


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## Timber1

Ceasar tends to be more show then help. Lord, at least for us old folks take those darn rollerblades off. And quit bragging up your dog park. Any dog, in the environment will behave quite nicely.

Victoria seems to be more down to earth, despite the clothes, and without all the CM crap that I am the best on the planet.


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## selzer

I agree about Victoria being more down to earth. I wish Ceasar would hook himself up to about ten GSDs and then they would touch noses and take him on the ride of his life -- all caught on live TV! 

Ok, that's mean, but I don't like the skates. Actually, I am not really a fan of his. I have seen him do a few things that I find disturbing.


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## Timber1

Victoria is apearing in Milwaukee next week on 5/12 at the Pabst Theatre and she will bringing along five dogs from the Wisconsin Humane Society. My daughter, Angela, wil be introducing Victoria, but darn I could not get a few free tickets. The tickets are priced at $25, $35, and $45.

Anyway, there is a nice article about her in Saturday's Milwaukee Paper.

The link is:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/lifestyle/pets.html


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## Qyn

Hi Timber, thought I'd post a link to the article - thanks for the link.

http://www.jsonline.com/entertainment/44180567.html


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## Sasha's Family

I Have never watched Victoria Series before but i have watched alot of the dog whisperer because he coats with Aggresive and viotrese dogs.


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## bergwanderkennels

I have not seen Victoria Stillwell shows so I can not comment.
There have been some things as well I have seen from CM that I do not agree with even. 

What I tell my clients is Some dogs need a more positive approach and some need a consequence. It is my job to read your dog and develop the best combination of methods for you and your dog to have a happy house companion.


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## bergwanderkennels

O.k so I did a search and watched some of Ms. stillwells You tube clips. 

Funny is I combine both styles from her and Ceaser into training of clients dogs! Cool I will watch more from her also to expand my tool box to help clients.


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## Timber1

Not necessarily because the dogs he deals with are very predictable when it comes to aggression. I am still waiting for a show that has a dog 98 percent predictable, but at times becomes very aggressive toward humans or other dogs.

I have one now and a great trainer. But none of us can figure out why the dog, at times, why she thinks her only goal in life is to attack and kill strange dogs.


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## bergwanderkennels

Timber, I would not even attempt to give any suggestions with out seeing first hand myself what is happening.


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## Timber1

Agree, this is a tough one and the only thing I can thing of is the dog was attacked by other dog long before she came into rescue. I have one friend whose Chessie went through that experience, and no other dog can even get close to the Chessie.


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## bergwanderkennels

It must have been attacked more then once. A 1 or 2 time attack will mentally change a dogs attitude but not to that point beyond rehabilitation. 

But if the dog were living in a home where it was under multiple or repete attacks everyday then It would be in defensive mode all the time when meeting new dogs. 
Again While I work with dog aggression cases it is not something I do over the internet without seeing the dog first hand.


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## Timber1

I appreciate your comments. As you said, no one can evaluate this dog without meeting the animal. 

As for Victoria, her show was a big hit. She took five dogs from the Wiscosnin Humane Society that had problems ranging from food aggression, to general aggression toward other dogs, etc. The dogs, on stage before large crowds did well.


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## bergwanderkennels

I figure if I can learn something from each trainer I meet then it can only help my students!


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## new_wind

In My Opinion Victoria’s cases are pick over the extreme to compete for audience in a 30 minutes fight arena, her methods even when they look very interesting talk about total dedication to the dog as the center of your life, while Cesar’s method put the dog as member of your pack in which you are the leader and the dog a follower.
Both have something good to offer if you don’t close your eyes to any of both.


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## Keisha

Personally, I think that you should always try positive training methods first. So of course I'm going to like Stillwell better. I think Milan brings up some interesting things, but everytime I watch his show I see dogs that, yes, he got to stop doing the behavior that they were doing. However, I also almost always see a dog that shuts down, excessive licking of lips, lots of panting, and just generally dogs with a very nervous look on their face. 

Those dogs that look like that seem more sketchy to me, because they seem more skittish, and fear can lead to snapping. In contrast, when Victoria works with a a dog and family the dogs seem happier and more obediant. Her methods take longer, because it's not forcing a behavior, it's teaching one. 

I don't think she makes the dog the center of their life, but at least a part of it. She has them to socialize their dogs and I think we would all agree that's something all dogs need. She has them work them mentally and physically, but she also tells them repeatedly to set boundaries. 
I've seen her deal with aggressive dogs. In one case, with a dog aggressive dog I would have dealth with the situation differently than she did. 
However, she dealt with an aggressive white German Shepherd once with positive methods and it worked very well, I thought. 

I've only seen one case where I thought that I would rather work with Milan than Victoria on. That was a full grown male Rotti that was very scary aggressive. It wasn't fear aggression, and he didn't growl in warning before he attacked. I'm not sure how one could tackle that with purely positive training, seeing as how he gave no warning and there was little fear. That's one case where I would really have no idea how to "fix", and I suspect it would be an ongoing commitment of the owners to make sure they kept others safe from then on. 

Cesar brings up dominance way too much for my tastes. I understand pack structure, and being a leader. But every dog he works with is not "dominant." Some of the problems those dogs have are actually more simple, and do not require an alpha roll or "claiming" the space. 
I don't know. Some would call me a bleeding heart (and have), even though I do think corrections have a time and place, if used correctly and humanely. 
I think he is too quick to correct when a lot of times the (clueless) owners have not taught the dog what they want the dog to do. I think you should only correct when the dog is in total defiance of you when he knows HOW to do something.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on them.


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## TxRider

> Originally Posted By: Not_Just_A_DogPersonally, I think that you should always try positive training methods first. So of course I'm going to like Stillwell better. I think Milan brings up some interesting things, but everytime I watch his show I see dogs that, yes, he got to stop doing the behavior that they were doing. However, I also almost always see a dog that shuts down, excessive licking of lips, lots of panting, and just generally dogs with a very nervous look on their face.


I've definately seen a couple, and definitely some dogs that were very stressed out from someone turning their world upside down and not getting what they are used to.

But it's a minority of dogs on the show, and I see him working with fearful dogs very well on some shows too, as well as dangerous aggressive ones.

The best thing both do IMO is show people no dog is past helping and a lost cause, and that almost all a dogs issues are the owners fault.


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## Keisha

Very true TxRider. I've also liked that Cesar seems to go out of his way (as does Victoria) to tell the audience that it's not the BREED, but the people who own them that causes a problem.


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