# Cat aggression



## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

Nick is now a little over 4 months old and I've never had a pup that was so focused on killing a cat (or two) and yesterday he got hold of one of the Bengals. He broke some skin but no real damage done as of yet. I don't need him really injuring one of my show cats though! I always keep him separated from them but last night the cat snuck out of the room while I wasn't looking. They aren't afraid of the other GSD's so they don't run from Nick.

I have tried toys and food to break his concentration on the cats but it's like I don't even exist. I don't want to try anything harsh on him because I don't want to hurt his drives either.

Any suggestions for me?


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

I am looking fro the same type of answers. I have Max who we took in from a shelter in December. We don't know his exact age but keep revising it lower. At this point, he may be just under 1 year old. We cannot get him to ease up on his cat drive. We keep him seperate from the cates, but they are getting bolder and are coming past the safe zone and I'm afraid one of them is going to get nailed. Last night we had him on a leash as one of the cats was trying to come down the stairs and we wanted to see where we could go with the situation. I could not get his attention off the cat even with food. I literally held it in his nose and he did not take his attention off the cat.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

No advice, but I will be following your post. I have the opposite problem, my 8 year old tabby (tough guy) will attack my dog. 

I can tell you that as time is going by Dakota is not as reactive to the cats, and the cats to her. I saw a segment on Dog Whisper that described your situation. He crated the cat and brought them together in the same room. He then let the owner take the cat out of the crate and allow the dog to sniff while he was holding the leash and correcting the dog. This was a very confident cat that was not stressed by this. The owner was to work on this for a few weeks. I don't know if it was successful or not or if this is even a good thing to do. I have not tried it.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Tracy..that crazy prey drive.. LOL...







As an owner of a stubborn headed Bengal that will not back down from the dogs, I have learned that for the safety of the cats and dogs, I have corrected my dogs when they go after the cats. Of course I tried the food and toy distraction first, but after realizing that Brandie WILL NOT leave the cats alone and will not stop chasing them, I started correcting her for going after them. I do not think she would hurt them, she definetly tries to nip at them, but I do not think she would try to hurt them. If you think Nick tries to hurt them, I would correct him. It won't hurt his drives IMO. Has not hurt Brandie's prey drive one bit that I have corrected her for chasing the cats.

What I did with her was just to give her a hard verbal correction and if that did not work I would put a leash on her and when she did chase the cats I would give her a leash correction with a "LEAVE IT". and then with a cheery happy voice "Brandie come" and a treat when she comes back. Then I remove the cat out of the room. Brandie also LOOOOVEEES to cuddle, so if she is cuddling with me on the couch or with my DH, and a cat enters the room, we hold her on the couch and tell her leave it leave it leave it, and praise her for not paying attention to the cat... well this is what I have done, and it seems to have been working pretty good. She still will chase the cats when she can, but she can be reverted away from them too.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

Nick understands "leave it" and he does with other dogs and objects but not the cats. I just had to use body blocking with him but I think I'll have to move on to little harsher leash corrections with lots of treats. I need a cat that I didn't pay an arm and a leg for first!


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Sorry to say - but that crazy cat drive is not going to go away. The only way to control it is with an e collar (pup too young though), constant supervision and harsh corrections.

If your cat (like my now deceased cat) has grown up with dogs and is not afraid and does not run, your cat will sooner or later be seriously injured or worse. I speak from vast experience. Things can go along great for months and suddenly the attack can happen.

Some dogs just have that high a level of prey and if you are not there watching to protect the cats bad WILL happen.

The only way you can be sure is to keep them separated when you are not there to supervise. Even "playful' play can result in serious injury which escalates quickly to serious harm.

I know now what my gut told me when I saw my workingline female with the breeder's cats. She said "Oh she wouldn't hurt the cat even if she caught it (referring to her cat in her home as I was purchasing the 18 month old female) But I knew better because I HAVE dogs that get along fine with cats but that intensity in HER eyes told me yes indeed she WILL kill a cat, and indeed she did after arriving here when I was out and my son let the dog into the yard. One of the most heartbreaking things to happen, but I couldn't blame the dog, that was just her DRIVE it was MY responsibility to protect the cat, and one slip up and he was gone.

I work very hard in my puppy selections for people if I know they have cats because if that 7-8 week puppy is completely focused and obsessed with the cat I will not let it go to a cat home. Why battle and fret everyday.? Did your breeder know you had cats? Just curious? Or is this as I gather from your post a "workingline high prey drive pup?"


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

Yep my breeder and I are friends (we're co-owning Nick) so she knew I had cats but she does not, so there was no good way to tell. 
Here's his pedigree. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/575537.html


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

This e-collar, is that a "shock" collar. I know someone who has one I might be able to borrow for awhile to get Max focused correctly. He is past the small pup stage so it would not be an issue in that regard.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

TRacy, just try the leash corrections with him. He will be just fine, I know how insane they can be after the cats, but they will learn what is out of boundaries and what is not!


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

I do NOT recommened using an e-collar unless you have someone to teach you how to use it correctly and especially with this particular issue!!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

An e collar is one that has a remote that you control the correction and the level. A typical shock collar is one that acts like a bark collar. Zaps intermittently. You would want the e collar, dogtra, etc. 

Tracy, you're unfortunately going to have to crack down on it. Idgie had very high drive and I had to end up scruffing her for awhile. She would come in, lock in on the cat, and no wasn't going to work with her. She enjoyed the chase. Even if the cat was on the table she went ballistic. 

Hard to break, but can be done, but it'll need to be done now before he gets much bigger and even then you might never be able to trust him completely alone. 

Oxana has very high prey for things that move, even at 11 she bolts out the door after rabbits every night, so she has to go on leash. She was older when I brought her into the house, but I still had to use electric on her for her agression to the older dog and to the cat. Now she is fine, but for about 3 wks, it was a pain.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I have an e collar packed away somewhere. I'd thought about using it as a last resort. 
I've scruffed him already Angela while he's zooming by me to get the cat. It's the only thing that will get his attention and that doesn't sink in for long. 
How about just sitting with him on a leash with a prong? Too young for that yet? Would an e collar actually be more fair?

Sheesh...even blockheaded Xandor really gave me no trouble with the cats and he lived in a kennel for years before I got him! He's one of those dogs that understands a good wallop to the head though.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

Yeah, what kind of breeder did you get that dog from?
















I agree with Paivi...put a leash on him. A dogs reaction dictates the level of correction. Try it on his buckle collar first, then a fursaver or training collar -meaning chain collar(not e collar). Your going to really, really have to work it. He's got high prey drives, he is used to playing tough with a little dog that he can chase, he doesn't get that he could actually hurt the cat. Have treats, use leave it, correct him, get his attention on you, praise, give a treat. 

Or, just get rid of those cats!


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

"Or, just get rid of those cats!" 

Or not! They are what are going to be paying for the little beast's training. 

I'll try everything everyone has suggested and keep working, working, working on him. Hopefully it will get better when we can get out and burn some energy off of him. This winter has been a killer. Want him in March Trish? LOL I have a cat show in South Bend and I could easily bring along Nicky.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

i never understood why people expect there dogs to get along with cats...i know that there are cases where they get along but come on...this is like trusting kernel sanders with your chickens


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

I am shocked that someone suggested an e-collar, the pup is only 4mo old, I would not even use a prong. Best suggestion I have is if you want to keep the cats keep them seperated. That is not a fix either since he already got a hold of one and they were already seperated, you need to be on top of the situation at all times.

Some dogs with very high prey drive will never give up on trying to get what they want but as he grows and you start doing obedience it might help when you are with him but he might always try and one day when you are not watching he will succeed.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

i have another question...are u planning to do any SchH training or any other training that you will want to keep all that prey drive?? JW i see that you have one dog with an IPO3.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

Steve, I have 4 GSD's in the house right now and a Rat Terrier. 3 of the GSD's (including the IPO3 boy) and the RT will curl up and sleep with cats on the couch. Do I trust them unconditionally? No way. If I'm not home, they are either in crates or the cats are in the cattery room. You never know when a dog might get possessive over some food or a toy. I've paid between $1500-$2500 each for my Bengals and they are not about to be lunch. The girl that got loose is in heat and driving us all crazy so I'm just lucky I was there when Nick got her.

Yes he will be in training for Sch. so I don't want to do anything that will cause him to hesitate to trust me in the future. 

I do know that he can do a heck of a bark and hold on a cat already. This boy is LOUD.


Xandor and some kittens.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Take a look at my avatar. My cat is 16.5 years old and has lived with dogs all of her life. My cat is a rescue who cost probably $25 and never earned me a cent and she is worth the world to me. I would never put her in danger. Most of my dogs (and fosters) have been gsds and several have had extremely high prey drive. I have only had one problem and made great progress with that dog and kept them separated unless I had total control over the dog. What worked with him was teaching him an incompatible behavior. So figure out what is the thing that your dog just can't resist and interrupt him/her just as they start to fixate on the cat get out the other thing--food (like meatballs, hotdogs or shredded chicken--something really high value and stinky), toy, whatever. Be sure your dog is on a leash so the exercise can't go wrong. Tell them to sit or down and then redirect them to the attractive thing. Pretty soon the dog will associate the cat with the incompatible behavior and begin redirecting them self. You have got to interrupt and redirect _before_ they get into the kill the kitty zone. I would start with just seeing the cat from a distance. 

Years ago I did live with a cat killing dog once and I adopted a kitten. I put a leash and training collar on the dog and sat there and corrected the dog every time she even looked at the kitten. That did work but not as well as the incompatible behavior training.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

I like the sound of the incompatible behavior training a lot. Our problem will be getting a cat to cooperate as they are very wary of Max right now. (no I did not start the thread, but I have the same issue)

I am concerned because our oldest cat is deaf and less than brilliant and I don't want to have a negative outcome. The cats are starting to get a little too brave as they are getting tired of spending more of their life upstairs than they were before. We are making sure he gets enough crate time to give them some freedom, and whenever we take him outside, they are brought downstairs to stretch their legs in the rest of the house. His training on this issue is our top item right now.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I didn't suggest an ecollar, just explained what it was to someone who asked. I hate the idea of even using a prong on a dog that is 6 months old, much less 4 months old. I'd start with tethering him to you nd see how that works.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I got the idea from Patricia McConnell. It's what she suggests to counter-condition unwanted behaviors. I used it to stop Rafi from jumping on me. 

Another idea I got from her was to redirect prey drive back onto me. Obviously this won't work for folks training for Schutzhund but Rafi is in training to be a good companion so it works for us. When I see him lock on something interest outside (when he's off leash) I immediately initiate some sort of game--tug, chase, fetch, etc. It has worked really well! Rafi definitely has high prey drive but if I interrupt just at the second he notices something it works every time.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WI didn't suggest an ecollar, just explained what it was to someone who asked. I hate the idea of even using a prong on a dog that is 6 months old, much less 4 months old. I'd start with tethering him to you nd see how that works.


I did not say you were the one who suggested an e-collar.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I guess I believe in the black and white theory of training/conditioning. I am always wary of redirection as I do not think it really makes it clear what behavior is rewarded - I have seen many people work with this idea of redirection with dog aggressive dogs and have never seen one really work! One in particular, a Westie, really seemed to me to become more dog reactive/aggressive over time with redirection training.

I agree that cat prey is a PIA. I have a very dog neutral Bengal too, and I have sold a really nice dog that I loved because he was obsessed with the cat. I have a young female who sits and stares and pants. I think an e-collar helps them understand that the cat IS off limits, but that Nick is way too young for it....and using an e-collar to condition a dog for aversion may limit it's usefulness in schutzhund if you would be a position there to need to use one.

Personally, I would correct the pup very very strongly with voice, scruff, and deprivation of your attention. Not reward him for not looking at a cat. I just don't think their minds can make that jump easily.

Lee


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

The redirection is what I've been trying with him and he won't respond with toys or food. The cat is far more interesting. 

This morning I've been doing pretty much what you're suggesting Lee. I put one of the cats in a small crate and did some focus work and hard corrections (on a flat collar) with Nick. When he started not listening to me, I put the hotdogs away and Nick in the crate next to the cat and sat and watched t.v. As soon as he settled, I brought him back out and started over. I had a migraine before he got tired of barking at the cat and decided to look at me instead.

Being a pup doesn't help...his brain goes to lala land easily.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: NWS_Haven I've paid between $1500-$2500 each for my Bengals and they are not about to be lunch.


holy crap!!









im not particularly a cat person, i do not hate them, but i would defenitly own a bengal. although i would not pay that much for a cat. do you know how many free kitten signs there are??







j/k


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i was going to suggest the same thing crating the cat and working onleash corrections with the pup, doing "leave it" and reward. this is done alot by the trainers here. but, it takes consistancy, alot of time, etc. with some it works with others with REAL high prey drive it might not.
some practice putting a dog in a submissive position beside the cat when things heat up.

i had a friend with two gsd's and a cat. she kept them separtated because she was nervous about the dogs hurting it. i wasn't crazy about her doing that because by keeping them separated the dogs viewed the cat as a stranger, not part of the pack. well, one day the cat snuck up out of the basement the dogs spotted it, went after it aggressively and killed it. it happend so fast my friend could act quick enough.

i guess i am not a believer in keeping them separated, prey drive or not i think the dogs need to know the cat is part of the pack and not a stranger. it takes work and supervision even if you have to keep the cat crated alot in the beginning while working with the dog, or keep the cat crated and out around the dog for a while, i think its better than the separation thing.

debbie


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have had dozens of regular cats in my life...and two Bengals....didn't pay that much for them - but I do have a twinge of guilt at buying a kitten when there are sooooo many needing homes too. But the Bengal I have is among my two favorite cats I have ever had...love her personality. I will get another some day! 

If Nick is to be a sucessful member of your household, you just have to get him through this sucessfully. It will take time, repetition and clear consistant demands on his behavior. Perhaps feeding in a crate with the cat near too, so the cat near him is related to good things...I still would be careful of feeding him if he is barking - being corrected. Praise for "quiet" command - I think doing foundation clicker and then marking the behaviorwhen he stops barking might be the most productive method...

Lee


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

We are keeping our cats seperate from the new dog Max right now, but only because he has shown too much drive towards them. At times at seems he just wants to check them out and play, and other times his attitude makes me fear for them. He sees us hold the cats etc. as we have tried to show him they are part of the pack. He knows Clover interacts with them freely, but that does not seem to blunt his focus. We will keep working it figuring sooner or later as he matures he could get past this.

The other part is that two of the cats will leave when my daughter moves out. That just leaves us with the 15 year old. Unfortunately, he is the one I'm most worried about.

One thing we have done in the short term is we have set up a screen when Max is in the crate to shield the view. The crate is in the family room so that when he is in there, he is with the family. the cat boxes, water and food are in the laundry room and the cats have to croos his view to get there. The screening allows them to pass without getting barked at and without him bouncing around in the crate or just "locking on" so all of the animals are more relaxed. We are going to do some more intense focus training this weekend when we can dedicate a large chunk of time to it.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

sounds like you got a good heads up on it all and are working twards maiing things work. i am sure it will work out if you are persistant.
i personally have had dogs and cats together for years. and all my dogs were Very prey driven, high drive in every way. i had some that believe it or not ignored the cat, some that just were curious and wanted to play, and then the cat chasers. never had any indending to harm the cat, although any nasty encounter gone bad could lead to something no so good. but, i really have found in most cases it works itself out with time and the animals settling in, etc.

debbie


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Generally I don't recommend the Ecollar for use on dogs under six months old, but I think you've got a special case here and that's what I'd suggest. I'd suggest that you NOT merely press the button when the dog looks at or shows aggression towards the cat, you can make the problem far worse. 

I'd suggest that you teach the dog to turn his head away when he starts feeling aggression towards the cat. I tell you how to do this here. http://loucastle.com/critter.htm 

I developed this method to stop police dogs from chasing cats on urban, yard–to–yard searches. It's never failed as long as people did their homework.


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## akgriffin (Feb 5, 2008)

i read that wouldnt use a prong collar on a 4 month old pup. then i guess you dont want to fix the relationship between your pup and the cats. when i got cinnimon she was almost 2yrs old. she wanted our cat to eat, i put her in the crate, and let the cat come up to her. if she acted up i put a sheet over the crate as a correction, if you act out you dont get to see out. she calmed down pretty quick. then i put cin in a sit or down position loved on her some and then ignored her. the cat came in to inspect her, if she moved to the cat she got corrected, put back into the sit or the down position and had the wife play with the cat near her. after a while say 3 months of work, she became oblivious to the cat, even when the cat does the cat on crack thing of running through the house and up and over everything.
cin will play with the cat now, putting the cats whole head in her mouth and then licking her till the cat looks like it fell in the toilet, and the cat will attack cin slapping her in the face and tail playing. it can be done but you will have to work at it, and 4 months old is not to young to teach with the use of a prong collar.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

There is a big difference between putting a prong on a 2yr old versus a 4mo old.


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## akgriffin (Feb 5, 2008)

pups can be started ob at 8wks of age....4months aint to old to use a tool to teach and train away unwanted behavior


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

Beating a dead horse..............


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: WolfstraumI have had dozens of regular cats in my life...and two Bengals....didn't pay that much for them - but I do have a twinge of guilt at buying a kitten when there are sooooo many needing homes too. But the Bengal I have is among my two favorite cats I have ever had...love her personality. I will get another some day!
> 
> If Nick is to be a sucessful member of your household, you just have to get him through this sucessfully. It will take time, repetition and clear consistant demands on his behavior. Perhaps feeding in a crate with the cat near too, so the cat near him is related to good things...I still would be careful of feeding him if he is barking - being corrected. Praise for "quiet" command - I think doing foundation clicker and then marking the behaviorwhen he stops barking might be the most productive method...
> 
> Lee











Lee, 
May I ship Sofie and Jack to you for 'cat-etiquette?' Oh, and can you handle Tatty Bad Cat at the same time. 
Such a service would be, well... priceless.
When would be a good time for you?


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