# Ughh! Too much whip!!



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Does anyone else ever have the over whelming urge to snatch the whip from a helper and break it over their knee? I think that if you took the whip from some "helpers", they would not be able to move!


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## LadyHawk (Jan 19, 2005)

wha????????


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Many times on other helpers; not the ones that work our dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I say that sometimes when I order a coffee drink! 
My TD is whip conservative with my pup.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

When I learned helper-work, not the fundementals but the actual "meat", anytime I cracked the whip and the guy for whom I was working his dog did not agree 100% with it, I had to explain, in detail, why I thought it was a good idea to crack the whip at that moment. Sometimes he said "Ok. That is acceptable" other times he told me " You are a moron". Actually, come to think of it, there was a time when I was not allowed to use a whip. I was told "When you learn how to use your presence then you can have a whip" and "The whip is a tool, it can not be used as a substitution for good work". 
It seems to me that there are quite a few "helpers" who try to use the whip as a form of lazyness or they do not know how to do certain things, so they just crack the whip a few hundered times.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I was once told that a lot of whip= lazy helper and I would believe it. All the good helpers I have ever worked with rarely use the whip. Although I won't presume to know the time and place for whip use, I assume it's got it's proper use like any other tool in the helper gear bag. 

I've also seen excessive whip backfire with the gun shots in OB.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgWhen I learned helper-work, not the fundementals but the actual "meat", anytime I cracked the whip and the guy for whom I was working his dog did not agree 100% with it, I had to explain, in detail, why I thought it was a good idea to crack the whip at that moment. Sometimes he said "Ok. That is acceptable" other times he told me " You are a moron". Actually, come to think of it, there was a time when I was not allowed to use a whip. I was told "When you learn how to use your presence then you can have a whip" and "The whip is a tool, it can not be used as a substitution for good work".
> It seems to me that there are quite a few "helpers" who try to use the whip as a form of lazyness or they do not know how to do certain things, so they just crack the whip a few hundered times.


Art,

Good point. Most helpers I have seen do not have the presence, but do have the attitude







No matter what level or association.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So in a trial would you be more concerned, or in training? The dog needs to be subjected to that, I would think to pass the test.
My TD is a trial helper. He reads the dog and knows when/why to use it. I feel fortunate to know that he isn't lazy as suggested above.
I wouldn't let my dog be worked with just anyone, though I know that he needs different helpers to prepare for trialing. 
Makes me leary...though I think my dog could handle it better than I.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

Too much whip has made it almost impossible for my to train regularly out here .... My male dog is so jacked up naturally that too much whip makes him crazy, not correct. I can see the whip when needed to get their attention, but the helpers have his attn the second he is out of the truck. as far as breaking it over their knee, I have had a few times I would have happily tied them up with it. :-(

But nobody listens to a young girl with only 2 trials and 5 years under her belt. My best helper still doesnt listen, but at least he hardly ever uses a whip. He has presence (and attitude) LOL 

My female dog just ignores the whip, if you want her to be serious(i.e. correct) you generally have to actually bop her on the head to get her attention, otherwise she just harrass' the helper. Due to my hubby playing too much 'play' ( didnt want to get sensored  with her.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jane, they are talking about the overuse of the whip (cracking it) in training not the stick hits that they will face in a trial.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Had someone crack the whip right up on my dog... the dog was so fast he caught the little end of the whip in his mouth... ewwwww.

I don't only have the urge, I have learned to take whips and sticks away until I tell them they can have them. *sigh* Another reminder of why I don't want to go to training....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, if it is your training director/helper, would you not communicate the overuse/underuse for the situation you are working on? 
We discuss what we are doing beforehand. 
I do trust my TD/helper to do right by my pup.

I was wondering if this thread was w/ helperwork where you didn't know their motivation...or in a situation that you have no control over


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The whip is a valuable tool in training and has its proper place and time. However, I have watched some training where it sounded like the landing on Normandy.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I used to visit a club that was right next door to the Long Beach Police Dept's firing range. There was more noise coming from the one helper than from the entire swat team.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Jane,

Before-hand discussions are well and good, however, it has been my observation that helpers fall back to what they know "in the heat of the moment". And it seems to me that what many helpers know is: "when in doubt crack the whip".


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

"....take cover, men!!!" I have been on that field too!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Now these people didn't sign up for a critique so I'm not inviting that on them. 

Perhaps someone could explain how the whip is being utilized to further develop the dog in protection work in a scenario something akin to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThNR-BELMk


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I stop the new learning helpers in our group and make them explain why they were using the whip at that time. More importantly. I try to get my young helpers to focus on what they are trying to do with the dog they are working before they start. If it is a familar dog then what are we working on and what is needed to work on that aspect. If it is a newer dog read first what the dog is exhibiting and try to plug in to a good starting point. I tell them often when the higher drive dog comes on field, what is the whip for right now???? Certainly not to rev him/her up. this whip thing is often a self stimulation thing for the helpers and a feeling they are "on their game". JMO


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1a feeling they are "on their game". JMO


I think many of them like to crack the whip because they don't know what else to do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't want to derail the thread but can someone explain what the whip does to the dog, the pros/cons, etc? It's something I've always wondered about. I have my thoughts about how it's used with my dog, but I'd rather know a bit about it in a more general sense, if that is fair...


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies,

Good questions. There are several common problems that I see created by poor use of the whip. The first problem is that the dog becomes dependant on the whip. If there is no whip there is no dog. Along these same lines are helpers who make a dog react to them (usually using the whip), it should be the other way around, the dog must initiate the fight and the helper reacts to the dog. The second is that many helpers use the whip so much that it looses any kind of meaning to the dog. If the helper is going to pop the whip it should mean something, there should be purpose to it. Third are the helpers who insist on popping the whip while the dog is gripping. Now there are times when this ok but what you see many times is that it just makes a dog hectic. 
Having said all that, when used correctly and with purpose the whip is an important tool.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks Art. What would be good use of the whip? Is there anything wrong with *never* using a whip if it seems that too many helpers use it too freely? How do dogs perceive the whip or does that depend on the dog? Is it a prey thing or defense thing? 

Does a dog know when a whip is a whip? What I mean is, I show one of my dogs and like to do the Temperament Test with my dogs and both involve close range gun fire test. Sometimes I hear people say "oh crap my dog is always worked with a whip and will go crazy when the gun is fired." Does the dog really know when it's a whip and when it's gun fire making the same sounds?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies, I am going to answer you "Lou Castle style" so bear with me, I know it is annoying but it is a very effective way to answer multiple questions.

Quote:

"What would be good use of the whip?"

Good use of the whip is when it is used with purpose and power, it has to mean something. It is impossible, at least for me, to fully explain this in writing. 


Quote:

"Is there anything wrong with *never* using a whip if it seems that too many helpers use it too freely?"

Nothing "wrong" with it, but then you are ignoring a good tool. I think this is kind of similar to people who would never use an e-collar because they don't know how to use it effectively. Instead of ignoring it, it is probably best to learn to use it. However, I do think it is a good idea for people learning to work dogs to learn without the whip, and learn to use themselves before they become dependant on a tool. 

Quote:

"How do dogs perceive the whip or does that depend on the dog? Is it a prey thing or defense thing?"

This is not dependant on the dog, it is dependant on the way in which it is being used. By itself the whip means nothing. 

Quote:

" Does the dog really know when it's a whip and when it's gun fire making the same sounds?"

I think the problems that you are alluding to stem from the whip being used to activate the dog. By this I mean the dog learns to "turn on" when the helper pops the whip. To me this is the wrong approach, the dog should activate the helper. The whip by itself is neutral, it has no innate meaning. So hearing a whip or gunfire in a circumstance when the dog is not actively engaging the helper should be, likewise, neutral in meaning. Ie. the "pop", by itself, does not mean the dog has to do anything.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Zahnburg, if you're going to answer "Lou Castle style" you're going to have to master using the quote feature.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomZahnburg, if you're going to answer "Lou Castle style" you're going to have to master using the quote feature.












[ quote ] at the beginning [/ quote ]

without the spaces


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomZahnburg, if you're going to answer "Lou Castle style" you're going to have to master using the quote feature.
> ...


I will work on mastering this feature.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Uh, no, that's okay, really!









Truly though, I can't read it, and also if you snip a quote by taking some words out that needs to be indicated. So all that quotey quote work is lost ona lot people because I would bet I am not the only one who can't read it. I wouldn't care if it was on the benefits of consuming GSD sized chocolates for cancer prevention I would have to read it elsewhere. 

Now, back to your whips. Shape it up. Get straight!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Art, those are some of the same peeves I have with the use of the whip....time and place for all tools but as Lisa said some use it because they don't anything else. good post!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The whip is mostly used to enhance prey drive. It can be used when pressuring a dog but it is not really the whip that pressures the dog, it is just a part of the picture that is part of a more intimidating and threatening helper. That kind of work is done very briefly with a specific purpose and if that work goes on too long , it causes more harm than good. 
Lots of people try to use the whip to put power into the dog vs working the dog in a way that brings what we want to see OUT of the dog. There is actually a difference. The whip may seem to bring some power at that moment but it goes away once the whip does. Some dogs are a bit more disturbed by the whip than others and this may be where people get the idea that you can get aggression by using it. Really that is just more of a spike in aggression similar to what pain does to the dog. It is touching the nerves which creates a little aggression spike but it is not the kind of aggression I view as positive in protection.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's OK, I understood the post, Art. Thanks for answering.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: VandalLots of people try to use the whip to put power into the dog vs working the dog in a way that brings what we want to see OUT of the dog. There is actually a difference.


Yes Anne. This is what I am talking about when I say the helper tries to make the dog react to him. To me, the dog must bring his own power. The dog activates the helper. 



> Originally Posted By: VandalThe whip may seem to bring some power at that moment but it goes away once the whip does.


This is part of what I mean when I say that a dog becomes dependant on the whip.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:Yes Anne. This is what I am talking about ....


Perhaps....but you didn't use the quote feature correctly, so, I did it without.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I will add this also. If I want to really disturb a dog in a way that will bring out some real aggression, the last thing I would consider using is a whip.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vandalbut you didn't use the quote feature correctly


Cut me some slack...I'm learning how to use these fancy features.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Third are the helpers who insist on popping the whip while the dog is gripping.


I do see this quite a bit and sometimes with very young dogs. When I say very young I mean under two or three years of age. Most of the time it is done when the helper is facing the dog and this to me is really VERY damaging . There is a certain age to bring out aggression but some helpers want to see it way too soon. They are trying to force the dog to bite hard. If the helper is facing the dog and popping the whip while it is on the sleeve, the popping noise is not the real problem, the frontal attack by the helper is. There is a time to work a dog with more threat and a time to use that posture where you face the dog, but you have to wait until the dog is bringing some aggression on his own first. 
What happens with this kind of work is what was already talked about, a reactive dog and the grip just never has the power that comes when you are patient and bring it out over time. I only try to teach the dog to fight back with his aggression maybe once or twice in a session once the dog shows he is ready. The dog will not bring it more than that and what you get when you keep trying is avoidance. All that work with the whip over and over while the dog is biting is creating avoidance or "learned helplessness" where they just endure it.

In my experience, while some dogs bite well from the get go, even in those dogs, the real power does not start coming until the dog is at least two years of age or older. That is when you can feel a change in the quality of the bite. That is also when you will start to see the dog trying to take control of the fight and is when you can add more pressure.... but really very slowly. It should always be a case where you see the dog doing the majority of the work, meaning where the majority of the action is what the dog is doing vs all the activity coming from the helper


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## JackieM1982 (Jul 21, 2005)

Yep! Treck's foundation bitework had too much whip. So much so, that he began coming off the sleeve and biting the stick/whip. After that club became defunct and we joined our present club we began work to correct this and he was then fine with the stick and stick hits.


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## Snoop Dogg (Oct 19, 2017)

*Too much whip*



JackieM1982 said:


> Yep! Treck's foundation bitework had too much whip. So much so, that he began coming off the sleeve and biting the stick/whip. After that club became defunct and we joined our present club we began work to correct this and he was then fine with the stick and stick hits.


I am having the same problem, how did you correct this ?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hi Snoop Dogg, 

Can you please start a new thread with your question? this thread is ancient, and most of the posters aren't active on the board anymore. thanks!


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