# Any comments about this breeder/line before I take the plunge?



## sprklnh2o (Dec 17, 2010)

Hi GSD experts!

I am soon going to be a GSD owner. I actually already put down a deposit and I will probably getting a puppy in 2 months! Before I really take the plunge though, I want to get you guys' opinion on this breeder/GSD line. Just for peace of mind and to know that I made the right decision in this breeder. 

I reserved a male puppy from this Q litter (Zamp/Gilla) 
I met with the breeder, the dam and sire, and visited the facility. Everything is a thumbs up from what I can see and detect. I am totally in love with the sire - Zamp. He's a magnificent dog with great temperament. 

Do you guys see any red flags? The puppies from this litter are $2000 each. I know it's a lot but it's worth it to me if I know these GSDs will likely to be healthy and have great temperaments. My dog will be living in doors with me as a house pet. 

Please let me know if you see any red flags or anything suspicious. I would love to hear you guys opinions!

Thank you in advance!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Don't know the breeder, but the dogs are lovely and it appears they are doing all the right things. No red flags as far as I can see!


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

the father is lovely , the mother is too , my only concern would be her pigment , she does not have any black on her face, although if you are getting a pet who cares. looks like all the health certs are in place , good luck , puppies are so fun!


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## sprklnh2o (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you guys think $2000 is reasonable for that pedigree? I don't know pedigrees very well. I guess I just want to know if $2000 is reasonable and if people would bargain when buying a dog? Sorry if I sound rude - this is my first time dealing with a breeder and I am not sure if "bargaining" is something people ask for when buying from breeders.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I have never 'bargained' altho one can always ask I guess but if they are asking that amount, they might be offended or turned off if one did ask.

as to whether they are worth 2000$, showlines are more expensive than working lines, I really couldn't say if they are 'worth it' or not.

Maybe someone with more experience regarding the dogs will pop in and give you their opinion. Nice looking dogs tho


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

sprklnh2o said:


> Hi GSD experts!
> 
> I am soon going to be a GSD owner. I actually already put down a deposit and I will probably getting a puppy in 2 months! Before I really take the plunge though, I want to get you guys' opinion on this breeder/GSD line. Just for peace of mind and to know that I made the right decision in this breeder.
> 
> ...


 
I have seen their dogs at the shows here on the West Coast, I have liked quite a few of them, the price is right what you would expect to pay for a Showline puppy.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

MY WGSL is from similar lines and he is worth every penny.


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## sprklnh2o (Dec 17, 2010)

Hi Blehmannwa - what does WGSL stand for? 

Thanks to everyone who replied, I feel more confident about my choice now!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sprklnh2o said:


> Do you guys think $2000 is reasonable for that pedigree? I don't know pedigrees very well. I guess I just want to know if $2000 is reasonable and if people would bargain when buying a dog? Sorry if I sound rude - this is my first time dealing with a breeder and I am not sure if "bargaining" is something people ask for when buying from breeders.


That's about the going rate for a showline pup. DO NOT attempt to "bargain" with the breeder, that is usually taken as an insult. Breeding dogs and doing it the right way is costly; health testing, showing, titling, vet bills, etc run up a lot of expense and most good breeders don't break even by the time they pay their dog-related expenses.

If cost is a concern, you could ask the breeder if they would be open to accepting payments. Some breeders will do that, but don't be surprised if they won't.

Oh, and WGSL = West German Show Line.


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## sprklnh2o (Dec 17, 2010)

Hi Freestep, 
Thanks for the suggestion. I wouldn't want to offend my breeder. :laugh:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Price looks good, the dogs look good, I think it is probably a good choice. 

Hope you enjoy your puppy. What do you intend to do with him/her?


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## VALOR (Dec 5, 2010)

I saw this litter announcement on another breeders site www.vompaukenschlag.com . Maybe the litter is co-owned or something along those lines. Good luck with your puppy!


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## sprklnh2o (Dec 17, 2010)

Hi Selzer, I just wanted him to be an awesome family pet. I will definitely take him to obedience classes but I am not very interested taking him to shows or anything. Who knows, maybe once I have him I would want to?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sprklnh2o said:


> Hi Selzer, I just wanted him to be an awesome family pet. I will definitely take him to obedience classes but I am not very interested taking him to shows or anything. Who knows, maybe once I have him I would want to?


I hope so. Enjoy your puppy. Take him to classes, and then more classes, and then more classes -- it is great socialization, for owner and dog, and the pup gets a good foundation. If you have a good instructor, I would be surprised if they do not encourage you to enter him in obedience or rally. I enjoy classes, and I think that if they are not fun, up beat, fun for the dog, then nothing terribly positive will come from them. 

But if they are upbeat and positive and fun, you can build the bond between you and your puppy. 

Good luck.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

my only question would be what the price is of the litters from titled females??? Is there a difference? 

Lee


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Sorry..West German Show line...love the Farbenspiels.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

nice dogs. Ham Urbecke died a few years ago.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

these are show dogs. why does she need black on her face? i doubt
there's any pet quality pups.



horsegirl said:


> the father is lovely , the mother is too , my only concern would be her pigment , she does not have any black on her face,
> 
> >>>>although if you are getting a pet who cares.<<<<<
> 
> looks like all the health certs are in place , good luck , puppies are so fun!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Showlines make perfect pet quality pups/dogs, I would recommend to go for it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Her pigment isn't the most amazing I've seen by any standard, but certainly not bad, don't worry!!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> these are show dogs. why does she need black on her face?


Lack of a mask is considered a fault in the SV Standard of the German Shepherd. I believe the desired mask should go up past the eyes in some way (some have a full black mask, others have a mask that has a definite black outline along the forhead). But regardless the mask should be there.

Quote from the SV Standard as translated into English-
*"Missing mask, light to white markings on the chest and inner leg sides, light toenails, and a red tail tip are signs of faulty pigmentation."*

Now having said that, pigmentation is very important to me, but I'll overlook a less than perfect pigment if the dog has an outstanding temperament. It's all in what you find important. I would want to meet the dogs, especially the dam, if at all possible.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> these are show dogs. why does she need black on her face? i doubt
> there's any pet quality pups.


she doesn't "need" black on her face , it is about pigment , possibly a personal opinion of mine? I like a dog with good pigment , which includes a nice dark mask and dark eyes. pigment is part of the gsd standard. I really like the showline dogs , but I see many with good body pigment and no black on their faces , I don't think it makes a very pretty picture.
If this is a pet and it doesn't bother you then no big deal. the dogs in this kennel look like they are healthy and have the appropriate certificates/tests to back it up.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Lee - the female has a Sch 1 -- it's pretty common for breeding females to have just that. Hearsay says that an intact bitch doesn't excell at Sch. 
As far as "no black on face" -- she has a little on her muzzle - that should count.

So far as the price, factor in that flight to Germany & back for her "date" or else the flight to a new home after breeding. This stuff gets expensive.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

middleofnowhere said:


> Lee - the female has a Sch 1 -- it's pretty common for breeding females to have just that. Hearsay says that an intact bitch doesn't excell at Sch.


According to the breeders website, she has as only a BH.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

"These are show dogs...I doubt there are any pet quality dogs there"....did I read that correctly?????In a litter of eight you would be lucky to get two show quality pups to my way of thinking. Between hips, elbows, testicles, missing teeth, temperament, curled tails, oversize, undersize, not enough angulation, not enough shoulder, short upper arm, etc. You are lucky to have two good dogs that have it all to be real show quality.JMO


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> "These are show dogs...I doubt there are any pet quality dogs there"....did I read that correctly?????In a litter of eight you would be lucky to get two show quality pups to my way of thinking. Between hips, elbows, testicles, missing teeth, temperament, curled tails, oversize, undersize, not enough angulation, not enough shoulder, short upper arm, etc. You are lucky to have two good dogs that have it all to be real show quality.JMO


I agree 100%


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

horsegirl said:


> she doesn't "need" black on her face , it is about pigment , possibly a personal opinion of mine? I like a dog with good pigment , which includes a nice dark mask and dark eyes. pigment is part of the gsd standard. I really like the showline dogs , but I see many with good body pigment and no black on their faces , I don't think it makes a very pretty picture.
> If this is a pet and it doesn't bother you then no big deal. the dogs in this kennel look like they are healthy and have the appropriate certificates/tests to back it up.


on another note most if not all of the puppies will be born with a mask , as they grow some pups masks will fade. In my opinion he darker the pups face and head (black and tan) , the better chances you have of getting a dog with good pigment. Just so you know


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

horsegirl said:


> she doesn't "need" black on her face , it is about pigment , possibly a personal opinion of mine? I like a dog with good pigment , which includes a nice dark mask and dark eyes. pigment is part of the gsd standard. I really like the showline dogs , but I see many with good body pigment and no black on their faces , I don't think it makes a very pretty picture.


The showline dogs seem to have a lot of red pigment, but personally, I like dogs with a lot of black on them--I prefer strong masks and saddles, and some showlines seem to lack this. In contrast, some working lines have a lot of black but not as much red... oh why can't we have the best of both worlds?


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

Freestep said:


> The showline dogs seem to have a lot of red pigment, but personally, I like dogs with a lot of black on them--I prefer strong masks and saddles, and some showlines seem to lack this. In contrast, some working lines have a lot of black but not as much red... oh why can't we have the best of both worlds?


  we can all work on it , that's my hope!


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## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

Freestep said:


> That's about the going rate for a showline pup. DO NOT attempt to "bargain" with the breeder, that is usually taken as an insult. Breeding dogs and doing it the right way is costly; health testing, *showing, titling*, vet bills, etc run up a lot of expense and most good breeders don't break even by the time they pay their dog-related expenses.
> 
> If cost is a concern, you could ask the breeder if they would be open to accepting payments. Some breeders will do that, but don't be surprised if they won't.
> 
> Oh, and WGSL = West German Show Line.





sprklnh2o said:


> Hi GSD experts!
> 
> I am soon going to be a GSD owner. I actually already put down a deposit and I will probably getting a puppy in 2 months! Before I really take the plunge though, I want to get you guys' opinion on this breeder/GSD line. Just for peace of mind and to know that I made the right decision in this breeder.
> 
> ...


*Freestep*
I really don't believe a puppy buyer should be paying extra for a puppy because the breeder titled and/or shows the dogs. This should be the breeders pride and hobby and I don't think that should be an added cost. I also believe this should be a way for a breeder to set themselves apart and shows their passion for this breed that they're out their working and training their dogs and keeping this a working breed, that's the type of breeder I want/will support. That being said most breeders I've talked to charge between $1200-$1500 which is where it should be, imo. 
I wouldn't pay $2000 for a pet and I'd find it hard for someone to justify that price for this bred thats pretty heathy outside of hips/elbows and doesn't have a need for crop or docking. If I was the OP and a breeder told me their charging $2000, which I think is high, I would want to know why and how they get to that price over other breeders charging a more fair price of around $1200-$1500 and if I hear them say anything on the lines for profit I'd be looking for another breeder. If a honest question like that will offend them so be it it's not like gsd puppies are hard to find, tons of great breeders out there. I'm still pretty new with GSD and still learning much maybe I'm missing something but $2000 for this bred seems high and unnecessary and I have yet talk to a breeder that charges that much.

*sprklnh2o*
If all your looking for is a pet why not go to a working breeder and save yourself some $$ and get a just as beautiful dog, I personally like working gsd a lot better and respect a breeder that keeps this a working breed, so I'm a bit bias this way. Are you set on a show line pup? if so why?.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

My most recent pup was $2000. In my experienced opinion, it was a fair price. If you've ever actually gone through the effort of titling a dog and/or raising a litter, it's not enough as far as I'm concerned. The parents of my pup are also both Koerklassed, so another expense and benefit to me. 

Annette


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

scuba_bob said:


> If all your looking for is a pet why not go to a working breeder and save yourself some $$ and get a just as beautiful dog, I personally like working gsd a lot better and respect a breeder that keeps this a working breed, so I'm a bit bias this way. Are you set on a show line pup? if so why?.


Maybe the OP likes black and red dogs? Maybe they don't want to deal with the higher drives of a working line dog? I personally wouldn't own a show line, but I respect them and have nothing against them. There are plenty of people out there that respect working lines and have nothing against them, but wouldn't own one. That's what makes the world go 'round.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

scuba_bob said:


> *Freestep*
> I really don't believe a puppy buyer should be paying extra for a puppy because the breeder titled and/or shows the dogs. This should be the breeders pride and hobby and I don't think that should be an added cost.


Why shouldn't it be? Showing and titling cost the breeder. It takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, and dedication, not to mention monetary cost. In my opinion, it's necessary for a breeder to do this with a working breed, in order to prove that working drives and attitude is there, and select the best for breeding. I don't mind that the cost of a pup reflects that; it's really a token amount when you consider that the breeder isn't making a profit. 

Still, why show lines cost more than working lines, I don't know.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Freestep said:


> it's really a token amount when you consider that the breeder isn't making a profit.


 I keep reading this over and over. Why all puppy buyers are so against the idea that breeder may make a profit or wants to make a profit? I can't envision myself refuse getting a pup I want because I do not want my money to profit the breeder, i.e. pay for his or her trip to Hawaii for vacation or visit Europe for pleasure and not for a breeding. I'm not offended that a vet makes a profit, I will not avoid a vet because they send their kids to college on my money, so why I would want to see starving breeders? I can't get this.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> I keep reading this over and over. Why all puppy buyers are so against the idea that breeder may make a profit or wants to make a profit? I can't envision myself refuse getting a pup I want because I do not want my money to profit the breeder, i.e. pay for his or her trip to Hawaii for vacation or visit Europe for pleasure and not for a breeding. I'm not offended that a vet makes a profit, I will not avoid a vet because they send their kids to college on my money, so why I would want to see starving breeders? I can't get this.


Most breeders have day jobs to pay for their dog habit. In order for breeders to make a living breeding dogs, they either have to charge waaaaay more for puppies, or operate a puppy-mill type setup. I am sure there are large kennels that do make a little money, but for the average ethical breeder with just a few dogs, puppy prices do not begin to cover the costs of raising, caring for, training, showing, and titling dogs. When you factor in everything that it takes to raise dogs right, including your time, gas money, vet bills, housing, food, supplies, etc., there's just no way you can make a living doing it unless you're selling puppies for $10,000 each. So if you want to send your breeder on a Hawaiian vacation, go ahead and give them some extra money!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Just curious how you know this?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Anyone who spends any time on the forums AND trains and titles dogs knows what it takes to take a puppy to a title. Hours and hours of time. Going to a trainer/group/club - often 100-300 miles each way in this country! A vehicle dedicated to dog training, sometimes meaning the ONLY vehicle one can own - gas prices, club dues, national dues, keeping dogs and feeding good quality, vet care, then the fees for trialing, travel, hotels, shows, koers - adds up to a ton of money. Anyone with more than a little brains can figure out making titled breeding stock is very costly. 

Why should someone who invests thousands and thousands of dollars NOT recoup some of it in puppy sales??? Why should people who do nothing with dogs but buy two and breed them every year or every six months command the same price as someone who puts work, energy, time and money into their breeding stock???


And there ARE people who make a living at this...they keep their own male(s), stud him out and produce 6+ litters a year (30+ pups if litter is avg 5 pups).....it is done.

IMO, prices should be credential/accomplishment driven.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Why should someone who invests thousands and thousands of dollars NOT recoup some of it in puppy sales??? Why should people who do nothing with dogs but buy two and breed them every year or every six months command the same price as someone who puts work, energy, time and money into their breeding stock???


Exactly.

I have no problem with it if an ethical breeder does somehow manage to make a profit--more power to them! 

I know a lot of breeders, and most of them consider themselves fortunate if they break even breeding dogs. If they make a living with dogs, it is usually on the back end--training, boarding, grooming, etc. And yes, I suppose a stud dog owner could make a profit, as the overhead for one male dog is relatively small.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Freestep said:


> So if you want to send your breeder on a Hawaiian vacation, go ahead and give them some extra money!


 I will give the breeder the asking price for a puppy if I want a puppy from that breeding, and if the price is within my budget. What the breeder does with his money is not any of my business since I am not counting money in other people's pockets. I suggest you do the same. 

Also, if a breeder runs a failing operation I suggest he or she contacts an accountant and gets some advice on how to stay afloat. Financial ignorance is not admirable.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I will give the breeder the asking price for a puppy if I want a puppy from that breeding, and if the price is within my budget. What the breeder does with his money is not any of my business since I am not counting money in other people's pockets. I suggest you do the same.
> 
> Also, if a breeder runs a failing operation I suggest he or she contacts an accountant and gets some advice on how to stay afloat. Financial ignorance is not admirable.


 Awesome post!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Also, if a breeder runs a failing operation I suggest he or she contacts an accountant and gets some advice on how to stay afloat. Financial ignorance is not admirable.


Like I said, most people have a day job to support their dog habit. They don't go into breeding to make money, they do it for the love of the dogs. If I give a breeder money for a pup, I don't need to ask where it goes!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh and in answer to the question why should someone put time and energy into titling their dogs and receive the same amount of $ as someone who didn't-beacause they just enjoyed spending that time with their dogs?? and maybe the dog is never used for breeding


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