# Any Obedience Victors at stud?



## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Sorry..I posted in obedience first and realized I should have posted here but do not know how to remove other one.

Does anyone know of any recent Obedience Victors that have stud careers besides DeBruts the Shadow Knows? Either Canada or US?

I haven't had much luck and feel it is a shame as these dogs should be given more credit (along with agility and herding) in formulating a breeding program....


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Susan Sullivan in CT does a lot of herding with American Show Line dogs. She has had at least 3 Herding Champions.

There is a Dual champion (herding and conformation) in Mid-Missouri.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Ashmead (Amy Vose) has had an OV in the last decade -- I haven't seen her in a while so I don't know what she might have now.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Is there any part of AKC obedience that is dominated by genetic imperatives (e.g. fighting the helper and grips in SchH) rather than the skill and persistence of the trainer? Obviously, you can't make a silk purse out of a pile of poop, but it isn't obvious to me what part of the dog's genotype AKC obedience exposes.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

There is only max one obedience victor OR obedience victrix every year, and some have been spayed or neutered....so there probably aren't many being used in breeding programs. While OV is something I would love to accomplish some day, I don't think it's particularly meaningful when making breeding decisions.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well actually I had an Obedience Grand Victrix - which I owned, trained and handled. Her score was 199.5 / 200 . She was Sentry Challenge, Benjamin Schultz , Dog World Award Canine Distinction, having earned each title in 3 consecutive trials - all scores over 195 -- her average was 197. She did schutzhund and tracking .
She produced other high in trialers - including daughters that also went Dog World Award .
She produced a dog that went High in Trial and Best in Show same day .
She produced "Ambergris" UD TDX SAR , herding dog on a farm , who in turn produced several SAR from ONE litter plus an rcmp male from the same -- and produced Ontarios first bomb dog who did all the prelim building searches on the Pope (John Paul) first north american tour , and same dog did security for the US President at Toronto based G - 8 Summit .

Her lines are flowing through my best working dogs -- the line that I have had for 35 years .

Her line flows through dogs like Winning Ways Chimo - through the maternal line with Lalique and Vesta .... 

So how was it ?

It was the most anti climatic event ever .

We had no car . All trials I went to I would hitch a ride or go to on public transit, rent a car for the big ones.
I had a rascally baby that was a distraction , a husband who came with me because he drove and I did not -- used bike and TTC, and walked . So he was pacing around , another distraction.
The timing of the trial was lousy because my dog had a litter at home , still weaning , so that is a distraction to the dog.
Because she was in maternity leave , no training had been done bascially since the time she was bred - so make that about 4 months prior to the trial.

I went into the ring - cold turkey. She was absolutely amazing . Lightning fast . Precise , animated . A real starlet . The judge , Howard Ward was notorious for being demanding and quick in his rapid fire change of commands . I always chose the judges that meant something . 

She lost her one half point because by the time we went in to perform her teats were starting to fill a bit , and remember she had been unworked. Going over the jump she gave a slight tick with her nail . (judge told me after).

You look around --- bah , not a person watching the results -- they were all at the conformation ring ----

I had my dog . I had met the challenge because when I took the pup I said I WILL make her a O GV . And I did. 

The trophy is cob webby in a box -- along with other trophies and ribbons. The big rosette is tattered and dusty -- 

I went through for judging obedience -- did a lot of sanction matches, encouraged a lot of people , gave them hints -- some belong to a good tracking club now. 

Obedience is not supported .

Now on the other side of the coin -- just because a dog has a G V does not mean that it is correct in temperament or trainable in other aspects.

and that is my story -

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

carmspack said:


> well actually I had an Obedience Grand Victrix - which I owned, trained and handled. Her score was 199.5 / 200 . She was Sentry Challenge, Benjamin Schultz , Dog World Award Canine Distinction, having earned each title in 3 consecutive trials - all scores over 195 -- her average was 197. She did schutzhund and tracking .
> She produced other high in trialers - including daughters that also went Dog World Award .
> She produced a dog that went High in Trial and Best in Show same day .
> She produced "Ambergris" UD TDX SAR , herding dog on a farm , who in turn produced several SAR from ONE litter plus an rcmp male from the same -- and produced Ontarios first bomb dog who did all the prelim building searches on the Pope (John Paul) first north american tour , and same dog did security for the US President at Toronto based G - 8 Summit .
> ...


Hey, I am still INCREDIBLY impressed!!!! That is SO Awesome!!! Congrats to you and your program even if you don't think it a big deal. It is!!!


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Andaka said:


> Ashmead (Amy Vose) has had an OV in the last decade -- I haven't seen her in a while so I don't know what she might have now.


Couldn't find a current website for her but thanks for mentioning it!

Also, yes...Susan is in my neck of the woods and I met her current herding dog- a Dallas bitch!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A Utility Dog title really impresses me....but it wouldn't be a basis for breeding no more than participation in the BSP. Definitely shows the dog has good aptitude for learning....but breeding has to be <imo< based on compatibility with the opposite mate. In this regard an OTC would not be a reason to breed to a dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> A Utility Dog title really impresses me....but it wouldn't be a basis for breeding no more than participation in the BSP. Definitely shows the dog has good aptitude for learning....but breeding has to be <imo< based on compatibility with the opposite mate. In this regard an OTC would not be a reason to breed to a dog.


Very true! 

An OTC or a CH or a ScH or any other title is not the only consideration for breeding - should be the entire dog and the genotype as well as the visible phenotype of each partner! Should be a consideration of the entire dog (physical and mental) and also how the male and female match up.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Um..of course it wouldn't be the sole reason to breed to a dog..Duh!!

But, a dog that shows a high aptitude for obedience work; has correct temperament, structure, and movement; and demonstrates breed type would certainly be worth a look.

As I get more involved in obedience, it is amazing how much breeding aptitude for the discipline can be displayed through the selection for this type of work.

The thread "gentic obedience" posted here is a great example!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ninemaplefarm said:


> *Um..of course it wouldn't be the sole reason to breed to a dog..Duh!!*
> 
> But, a dog that shows a high aptitude for obedience work; has correct temperament, structure, and movement; and demonstrates breed type would certainly be worth a look. *Exactly! If they have the correct temperament wouldn't you agree that includes a "high aptitude for obedience work"? But how about the other aspects of GSD work - K9, ScH, herding, S&R, Seeing Eye, etc.? Wouldn't these be equally important?*
> 
> ...


nine, "DUH" is also very correct! 

*"Um..of course it wouldn't be the sole reason to breed to a dog..Duh!!"*

If you were responding to my last post above, then here is what I said:

"An OTC or a CH or a ScH or any other title is not the only consideration for breeding - *should be the entire dog and the genotype as well as the visible phenotype of each partner!* Should be a *consideration of the entire dog* (physical and mental) and also how *the male and female match up. "*

*Sounds very much to me that you are very much into one aspect of the GSD - Obedience! *

*So naturally it would expected that one would tend to emphasize that one thing in your evaluation of the breed. Most people tend to do this and really have to think about a true balance of our breed! Esp. to think about breeding our favorite dog(s).*


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

An obedience victor is quite an accomplishment...but it doesn't really tell you anything about the dog beyond the fact that the dog is precise.

I know a couple of GSDs that are UDX dogs....the dogs clearly didn't enjoy the work, but they did it because they were told to. They were clean trialing dogs, but very flat and boring to watch. Ability to train and aptitude are, IMO, two very different things.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses as I appreciate everyone's take on the OV dogs!!

For me, it shows an INCREDIBLE degree of biddability and willingness to please handler to get that far- even to obtain an OTCH without the GV. As I get more involved in obedience, it is fascinating to see the genetic, natural ability come out of the dogs who were really bred for this desire to please and do it enthusiastically! Not every dog can OTCH even with the best training according to the competitors I spoke too. They said it really requires a biddable dog and that can be selected for in breeding. Plus, it requires a sound dog with the jumping involved. They were telling me about the dogs that could not OTCH due to getting hip issues and they couldn't take the jumps anymore.

I had a Border Collie breeder and competitor tell me that breeders are breeding for that incredible biddability and that now the pups come out almost genetically geared to please. She was telling me about the puppy tests they do to spot the pups who have this natural inclination to please and she had personally bred 3 OTCH dogs from this type of puppy selection!

So, she was saying that the Border Collie people she knows smartened up and started selecting studs and dams that had this tendency and it has made it easier on dog as they come out genetically wanting to please and able to really excel at this discipline. I told her that I thought all border collies came out like that! LOL But, she said there is a big difference between desire to work and desire to please...I found it quite fascinating!!!! A lot of top obedience people are really selecting OTCH dogs for breeding selections based on this biddability.

I know the GSD is not on the same par as the border collies, shelties, or goldens (in terms of show success not ability) in obedience but I do find the different selection methods utilized by the other breeds interesting!!

Thanks again for all the responses as a lot of very good points were made!!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I dunno, I know a couple OTCH dogs (non-GSD) and I can't say there is anything about them that screams any more special that another well performing obedience dog. And one has kind of a bad temperment, IMO.

And I don't think that you can assume the does are biddable nor willing to please just becase they have it. A dogs can have been trained will all compulsion.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I dunno, I know a couple OTCH dogs (non-GSD) and I can't say there is anything about them that screams any more special that another well performing obedience dog. And one has kind of a bad temperment, IMO.
> 
> And I don't think that you can assume the does are biddable nor willing to please just becase they have it. A dogs can have been trained will all compulsion.


Well, we have different opinions...


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

We were going to take a run at the Obedience Victor title this year but the Canadian National Specialty is on the West Coast....

Here in Canada the dogs can not be spayed or neutered.


> The GSD Obedience Victor or Victrix award
> is given to the male GSD or Female GSD
> (but not both) with Highest Combined Score
> in Open and Utility in any one of the four
> ...


Deejay does have CKC blue ribbon wins so we do qualify, maybe next year.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Deejays_Owner said:


> We were going to take a run at the Obedience Victor title this year but the Canadian National Specialty is on the West Coast....
> 
> Here in Canada the dogs can not be spayed or neutered.
> 
> ...


Glad you posted..I have been lurking for awhile and I always wanted to tell you that I REALLY like your dog!! Keep up the great work!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Thanks for all the responses as I appreciate everyone's take on the OV dogs!!
> 
> For me, it shows an INCREDIBLE degree of biddability and willingness to please handler to get that far- even to obtain an OTCH without the GV. As I get more involved in obedience, it is fascinating to see the genetic, natural ability come out of the dogs *who were really bred for this desire to please* and do it enthusiastically! Not every dog can OTCH even with the best training according to the competitors I spoke too. They said it really requires a biddable dog and that can be selected for in breeding. Plus, it requires a sound dog with the jumping involved. They were telling me about the dogs that could not OTCH due to getting hip issues and they couldn't take the jumps anymore.
> 
> ...


Did your person also indicate what traits that they were willing to give up or compromise on to get this "*genetically geared to please" ability? *

With the little that I know about genetics and breeding selection (from some genetics courses in college and a little experience in breeding), when the breeders select strongly for one trait it is almost certain that they must compromise (deselect?) for all others as the others are NOT selected for.

So when selecting for "Desire to please" as you put it - then the question becomes - what did those breeders ignore both mentally and conformation wise?

The GSD is an all around breed (or is supposed to be anyway) - to get a dog more geared to Obedience what would you be willing to give up? Proper structure? Protection capability? Size in either direction? Any thing else? Aloofness?

What?


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Actually, the dogs all had conformation titles in addition to OTCH titles AND EVERY SINGLE ONE had herding titles. The breeders I spoke to were pretty adamant about maintaining the ability to herd and to keep correct structure-which they said was a result of their dogs ability to herd! Does that make sense! LOL I guess the way they explained it was that if they bred for the ability to herd their dogs ended up with correct structure. Well, at least, that's my understanding of the conversations!

They did breed for the balanced dog. They just selected the pups that had great conformation, herding ability, AND the extra desire to please a human and not just desire to work for the sake of working.....


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

I wonder how many german shepherds there are that have a conformation championship, OTCH, and herding title? I know Debruts the Shadow Knows would qualify but not sure after that!!

Here are some random border collie examples as there are too many to list:

-CH OTCH CT Blitzen's Sharp Dressed Man UDX5 OA OAJ HXAs RN

-CH OTCH Shoreland's Zoomin in on EWE UDX14 HSas

-CH/OTCH22 Heelalong Jalapena, UDX15, HT, NA, OAJ

-CH OTCH Tystar's Easy Does It, TD, PT

There are a lot of shelties and goldens who have similar CH, OTCH, and working tiles-herding for shelties and field for goldens.

Here is a quote from a Golden site talking about one of their diverse champions: "In order for one dog to achieve this status, the dog must possess mountains of natural ability, be exceptionally biddable, be intelligent, be an extraordinary athlete, be very much a team player yet be full of self confidence and, have a well balanced temperament."


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