# Nail issues...What could this be?



## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Remember when I posted awhile back about walking out to my backyard with blood tracked everywhere? And it ended up being one of my GSDs' toenails he ripped out? That nail is growing back...BUT:

The nail issues have continued.

4 days ago he ripped his dewclaw nail partially out. The new one is coming in and everything looks good. He will go to the vet at any sign of infection, but so far it has been treatable at home.

I noticed he has been licking his feet. The hair around his feet is a rust color. This is on one hind foot.

On this hind foot, I noticed something strange about the underside of his nails. The center of the nail is gone. They are mostly hollow. One nail had red blood near the skin, but this was where the quick would be. Almost like a blood blister. The nails are cracked open along the underside, all the way to the skin.

On the other hind foot, this is not the case. However, his innermost nail looks like the protective outside of the nail is gone! It is just a little red spike tipped with white nail. I cleaned it and put clear fingernail polish over it as was reccommended before with nail stuff.

I can't find any information about this. Is this some sort of crazy food allergy thing? His nails are not overgrown. In fact, the nails on his hindfeet are perfect length.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

First, the rust color is from saliva. What surface is he mostly on? My pups are on a concrete run, so short hind nails. The quick is not always the length of the nail, hence the hollow out nail. Trim that off to keep it from ripping. The nails could be splitting from being dry, are you adding any supplements? What do you feed? You could try rubbing some olive oil on the feet and nails.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I hope that it's not this:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/162180-symmetrical-lupoid-onycodystrophy.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know a greyhound with an auto-immune disorder SLO. Her nails basically rotted away and the vet had to remove what was left. She had to wear booties during healing, and it was almost a year to recover. She is on fish oil/vitamin C & E(her owner feeds purina one lamb) before the problem the owner didn't supplement with anything. I still think she has issues, but not as bad as it was last year.
http://www.grassmere-animal-hospital.com/SLO.htm <pics


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Have you checked between the toes (on the rust colored foot)? Is there little black stuff? I do not know about saliva but if the foot has an infection between the toes, it will often turn a rust color. This can be cause by demodex mites, or yeast I think, but you can fight it with Micotin. The spray stuff people put on their feet to kill athlete foot fungus. My vet suggested it to me once, and if any toes start turning that rust color, I check inbetween and if there is black gunk or if it looks red, I will spray them with the micotin for a few days.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

TankGrrl66 said:


> I noticed he has been licking his feet. The hair around his feet is a rust color. This is on one hind foot.


There is an enzyme in the saliva that causes the rusty color to the hair. So when you have a red-footed dog, it means the dog is licking his paws, for whatever reason... usually it's because they itch or hurt. Sometimes they lick out of boredom or an obessive-compulsive issue.



> On this hind foot, I noticed something strange about the underside of his nails. The center of the nail is gone. They are mostly hollow. One nail had red blood near the skin, but this was where the quick would be. Almost like a blood blister. The nails are cracked open along the underside, all the way to the skin.


Is there any way you can get a photo?



> On the other hind foot, this is not the case. However, his innermost nail looks like the protective outside of the nail is gone! It is just a little red spike tipped with white nail.


It sounds like he ripped the nail clean off the quick at some point. It happens sometimes, and when it does, you will sometimes find a toenail "shell" lying somewhere.


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## Thru the Viewfinder (Aug 8, 2011)

Gosh, I'd never heard of this before. It sounds so painful! And it gives me the heebie jeebies because for whatever reason, injuries and nails put together totally wig me out. 

I hope you can figure something out and help him with supplements or something.  I'm sorry.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My 9 yo mix is going through nail issues. Before I got him last year, someone had quicked all his nails. This year they started being narley & splitting. I took him to the vet expecting just to have them clipped -- ended up being more than that. I do not remember what she called it but he is on niamicide 3 x a day, oil capsul supplement 1 x a day & a specific antibiotic 2 x a day (I think. I check before he gets the evening one.) The treatment is working, the nails are getting better which is a real turn around from getting worse!j

So worth a trip to the vet to get it diagnosed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The greyhound is on the niamicide, too. I forgot about that(probably the most important supplement for this condition!)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

middleofnowhere said:


> My 9 yo mix is going through nail issues. Before I got him last year, someone had quicked all his nails. This year they started being narley & splitting. I took him to the vet expecting just to have them clipped -- ended up being more than that. I do not remember what she called it but he is on niamicide 3 x a day, oil capsul supplement 1 x a day & a specific antibiotic 2 x a day (I think. I check before he gets the evening one.) The treatment is working, the nails are getting better which is a real turn around from getting worse!j
> 
> So worth a trip to the vet to get it diagnosed.


Hey Middle, I didn't know that you were dealing with this, I'm sorry! Very glad that the protocol is helping though.

I'm guessing that the antibiotic is tetracycline. Doxy is a stronger tetracycline (longer half-life I think), and less influenced by calcium and other minerals. 

Bottom line, it's working, yes!


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

The surface he is mostly on would be the wood/tile floors in our house. Outside there is grass and concrete. He walks on only concrete when we go on walks. We have a lot of plants in our backyard as well, and all of that foliage was my prime suspect with the first nail, and even the dewclaw. He easily could have snagged his nails running through that.

I was feeding TOTW, but switched bc of my puppy. I tried the chicken soup brand food and it caused skin problems. Now I am feeding them Healthwise. 

He gets Nupro in his food, as well as a G/C joint supplement. I'm also trying out a spironlina supplement that I got as a sample. He gets that one 3-4x a week, but the Nupro about everyday. 

I'll try the olive oil and see if that helps. 

I checked between his toes. It all looks good, but I saw one blackish speck. The skin looks irritated. Where can I get this Micotin stuff? At any CVS etc? 

I found the toenail shell. Ouch. 

Also, when I went to redo his bandages today for his dewclaw...the dewclaw had finally come off. It was just chillin' in the gauze. There was an angry little nub where it was, and that toenail smelled pretty awful. I can't describe how happy I am that that smell wasn't coming from his actual toe 
I flushed it with some saline, then cleaned it with some brand of sort of diluted iodine. He didn't enjoy that, but it needed it. Then I put on some antiB ointment, packed some more on some gauze and rewrapped it. He has acted happier ever since.
So now we are on the infection fence. It is a little puffy, but still pink. No oozing, no smelling. I'm seriously considering going in just to get some antibiotics and have the vet look at his other toes. 

Now I am off to redo his bandages. I can try to take pictures...I am also going to read the links a few of you posted.


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## raysmom (May 22, 2004)

A few years ago Kaiser broke one of his dew claws and the broken end was at a 90 degree angle to the other end. He was in a lot of pain so we took him to the emergency vet and they cut the nail way back and said to watch it as it grew back.

It eventually grew back, but then the quick fell out and I could see raw flesh deep in the nail. We took him to our regular vet who said the nail would probably never be normal and suggested removing both of his dew claws and digits, which is what we ended up doing.

Because he was our relatively new vet at the time, he asked if there were any other nail issues (which there weren't) because he was concerned about the autoimmune oncodystrophy that Lisa posted. I think a trip to the vet would be a good idea to be sure what's going on.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

TankGrrl66 said:


> He gets Nupro in his food, as well as a G/C joint supplement. I'm also trying out a spironlina supplement that I got as a sample. He gets that one 3-4x a week, but the Nupro about everyday.
> 
> I'll try the olive oil and see if that helps.



This really is sounding autoimmune to me, so....

If you are going to try any supplements, do try the ones that are recommended for SLO - fish oil rather than olive oil, and vitamin C (ester C or sodium ascorbate) and vitamin E (natural, with mixed tocopherols).

I don't see a problem with the Nupro.

Spirulina however, can be immune stimulating. I would not use that in a dog with suspected autoimmune disease, though it's very good for the kidheys and other things.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

my female has just started having a problem with her nails, might not be exactly the same as the OP's but similar........she has split her nails several times in the last year, had to have part of it removed a few times at the vets..........he said her nails are shaped different than a normal dogs, hers are more round and hollow, one thing that we can't do anymore is use regular dog clippers we have to file down with the dremel so not to leave jagged edges..........my vet said it is a condition that some dogs have, and it could also be associated with her teeth being worn down.........and she is also on TOTW and Nupro supplement, i haven't researched any other supplements for this condition i just added fish oil at this time........


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

LisaT said:


> This really is sounding autoimmune to me, so....
> 
> If you are going to try any supplements, do try the ones that are recommended for SLO - fish oil rather than olive oil, and vitamin C (ester C or sodium ascorbate) and vitamin E (natural, with mixed tocopherols).
> 
> ...


I'll try those for a week and see if it helps. If not, I have another vet appt to make :/

Thanks for the input everyone


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Best of luck with this!


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the replies and the info  
This may be what he has.

BUT: If it means anything, he has dark 'gunk' all over his crotch/lower belly(wherever the hair is thin) and most noticeably in his armpits. This stuff looks black, and the surounding area is rust colored.

Just this afternoon, another toenail is coming off. It is lifting right off the toe, with a little white nub underneath. This sucks!!!!

So fish oil, vitamin E and ester c? Anything special about what brands or anything to buy?

I also want to put him back on TOTW...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Get the best you can buy from a health food store(human grade)
niacinamide is the key to battling it too, IMO.
I would get to the vet, and bring a print out of SLO diagnosis info.. I know when my friends greyhound went, the diagnosis was done after they finally went to MSU. Many vets don't recognize it. Just so you know, Lisa won't be around to help, I'm pm'ing you another site she frequents. TOTW fish based would be the one I'd go with as fish based diets are recommended.


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

The yahoo group was very helpful to me, I started a protocol
with Sierra that (cross fingers) seems to have things under
control. 

It's true vets aren't familiar with it, the one I saw (not my
regular vet) was only 6 years out of UC Davis and just
barely knew of it, but didn't have as much info on what
to do as the yahoo group did. So I'd go there.

What I'm doing involves the fish oil, niacinamide, biotin,
C and also Knox gelatin powder in her food. Plus she 
had one full month of abx, what fun that was!

Here's the link:SLOdogs : Symmetrical Lupoid Onychodystrophy

Good luck!


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

All of his nails have what looks like old blood or scabbing right against the skin. I have to really move the hair back to see it. One had kind of a zit next to it, which I cleaned up. 

This is just awful. Right when one of my other GSDs gets diagnosed with pannus. This sucks.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

hopefully you can get it under control with some of the advice here and the Vets opinion....

Pannus does suck, i had a dog with it.........thankfully that can be controlled with eye meds and other steps to prevent the progression..........


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

We went to the vet yesterday. She took a sample of the ozzy stuff and checked it out. She told me she saw yeast and bacteria, but she still thought it could very well be SLO. She did refer to it as Lupus. She put him on an antifungal med and antibiotics, with an antifungal shampoo as well...just to rule these out. We reassess in 10 days.

A dermatological specialist was on the phone with another vet about another patient, so my vet was able to chat with this specialist as well. They do not want to lop off his toe (as was procedure with SLO to diagnos it officially), so I assume if he doesn't improve she will send him/her picutres or something. 

If it doesn't improve she does want to do a biopsy, which was PRICEY. 

You know it sucks when ALL the vets on hand have to have a meeting about your dog and what to do


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

TankGrrl66 said:


> Thank you everyone for the replies and the info
> This may be what he has.
> 
> BUT: If it means anything, he has dark 'gunk' all over his crotch/lower belly(wherever the hair is thin) and most noticeably in his armpits. This stuff looks black, and the surounding area is rust colored.
> ...


This sounds like a yeast or fungal infection (on the belly) and is most likely from environmental allergies. However, it sounds like he's got a pretty weak immune system so there are probably multiple things going on. 

It can take a while to see results from the supplements--up to 3 weeks. 

I have found this NEEM shampoo works really well for my partner's yeasty dog: TheraNeem, Pet Shampoo, 12 fl oz (360 ml)

We have tried probably 10 different shampoos and that one makes the biggest difference for her. You do need to leave it on for 10 minutes before you rinse it off. 

Also, I don't know if this would be advisable because I'm not familiar with the auto-immune problem she appears to have (and Lisa T is currently banned) but I have found that Rejuva Spray for Azmira works really well to disinfect and promote healing. I use it on myself too. 

ETA: Oops, just saw your update. NEEM is a great anti-fungal if the other stuff doesn't work.


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

He was diagnosed with LO.

I joined the yahoo group and I got to start his treatment plan. So far so good, but results take time :/

He has only 5 nails left now.

And a lot of pills/supplements to take!!!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am really hoping that you are able to report back with some positive results.

My girl had a lifetime of immune dysfunction, and I found that the jarrow true CMO really knocked down a lot of her immune mediated inflammation. I can only recommend that brand since I have experieence with it, but maybe something to keep in the back of your mind. 

:fingerscrossed:


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The most recent Whole Dog Journal had an article on this. I sort of put these away so it isn't right here... Anyway, might want to look into the article.


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