# My GSD wants to kill my other dog



## SVain (Jul 9, 2015)

I have a 3 years old GSD -Kyra- and a 15 years old mongrel -Roxie- (both female). 

Roxie is very weak and sometimes she falls and stays unconscious for about 5 secs and then is ok, when that happens Kyra gets worried and begins to smell her very nervously. If i grab her by the collar she gets crazy and begins to attack her so either i take her away or just leave her smelling her...

Today she attacked Roxie for first time while i wasn't around so i don't know the motive i just hear them screaming and went to grab Kyra and tied her, she was the one attacking and Roxie was in the ground screaming. She's been tied for about 8 hours and now i'm trying to make her friend with Roxie, i take her to where Roxie is and Roxie doesn't even looks at her or moves, she is very scared but still Kyra aims to attack her so for now im going to leave her tied.
Also i want to clarify that this is the first time that there is blood in the fight, Roxie has a wound in the neck and Kyra below the eye, both are superficial wounds and are fine

What can i do with her? I know that if i leave her free she will go straight to attack her. What surprises me is that she seems to have no motive, Roxie is very old, weak, and just wants to be quiet, its not aggressive at all. 

-English is not my native language, sorry if is bad written


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I don't have the answer except don't let them alone together at all. When my older boy started having health problems Raina was just hitting adolescence. The older she got, the weaker he got. That is when the problems started. At times they would get along fine and then suddenly if Pyrate acted weak Raina would get that hard look and try to hit him. If I grabbed her, Pyrate would try to attack back so I kept them separated unless under constant watch because I knew Raina was young and strong and it wouldn't take much to hurt Pyrate who had a lot of health problems including a bulging disc in his back. I didn't want Pyrate's last few years to be harassed all the time so I separated them. Pyrate did eventually cross to the Bridge after a seizure and now Raina is an only child. I would love to get another pup but I don't think it would go well with Raina and my house isn't that big to keep them apart. I did it with Pyrate because he was my heart dog and was here first and I wanted to protect him. I don't want to have to live that way all the time with crate and rotate. Two females will fight no matter what the age so that may be part of the problem for you.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Not good and yes two females starting to fight...not good! No way or another you will need to get a trainer involved! 

In any case don't allow them to be together unsupervised! You "will" have to crate and rotate one day in one dog out! You don't know what to look for and you "need" to know that before you have any chase of "solving this on your own."

Keep a drag leash on the "aggressor" (short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture) and get a muzzle if they have to be together unsupervised or out at the same time together "supervised!"

Is rehoming an option?? That would be the simplest solution. 

Failing that....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHwcvjWOaII
Leerburg | My Dog is Dog Aggressive: What Can I Do About It?
Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxEfqnuN0ic

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sive-german-shepard-attacks-our-yorkie-2.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...017-aggressive-when-i-correct-other-dog.html\

I'll stop with those and continue in a sec!


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

This info is gone from the original source?? But I have it, things you need to know in any case, but two females in any case so...yeah.

*How to Avoid Fights in Multi-Dog Households
suite101.comView OriginalDecember 29th, 2009dominance aggressionnew dog
Dog owners interested in owning a multi-dog household must be aware of pack hierarchy and pack dynamics. Being educated about such dynamics is a must for owners wanting a pack of dogs that is able of living together peacefully. However, one thing to be considered is that, at times, even with the best efforts, some dogs may not be capable of getting along well, and in order to avoid the potential for serious injuries, some dogs must be continuously monitored, separated or re-homed.

A Little Notion About Pack Drive

Dogs are pack animals which means they have a social rank. Such rank has helped dogs survive throughout the years, and it is thanks to such drive that dogs make it into our homes today. The pack leader, the most important figure, is often referred to as the 'alpha dog'. This member carries the most important tasks such as leading the pack, choosing mates, selecting hunting grounds etc. This role is not an easy one and requires some special qualities that often go beyond appearance and physical strength.

In a domestic setting, modern day, pampered pets still carry such pack drive. At times, it may be difficult for dog owners to accept that a dog will be dominant over the other dogs. Some owners turn overprotective of the subordinate dogs and may feel the need to discipline the alpha, with the end result of only exacerbating the pack drive of the alpha.

There are different scenarios where inter-dog dominance altercations may take place. Such fights are often a result of the dog owner's intervention, or simply a change in the pack structure which causes a disruption in harmony. Following are some common scenarios that may lead to inter-dog dominance aggression.

Causes of Dominance Aggression between dogs

Old Age
Often dog owners claim that their older dog is victim of serious aggression from a dog that was once subordinate. What happens in this case is that when an alpha dog turns old, the remaining pack may feel that this dog is no longer capable of carrying out his pack leadership as before. A subordinate dog, therefore, may decide that he or she must take over. Serious or even deadly fights may disrupt during this process. In nature, if the old dog does not surrender, it may even be killed.
Sickness or Weakness
Just as a senior dog may not be capable of carrying out its leader duties anymore, a sick alpha dog weakened by an illness may be forced to surrender to a subordinate role soon. In nature, a pack leader must be strong in order to allow the pack to survive. Most likely a sick dog will give up its alpha status, but if the dog is stubborn, it may be faced with aggression from other better alpha candidates.
Social Maturity
When a dog reaches social maturity which generally takes place between 18 months and three years of age, it may decide to challenge the alpha dog. There may be disputes at this point between the two, however, sooner than later, they should reach a mutual agreement.
Absences
When an alpha dog is removed from the pack for some time, such as in case of an illness, or when it dies, the pack will need another dog to take over. There may therefore be fights among the potential candidates looking to become the new leader.
Same Sex Aggression
Often females do not tend to get along well, especially if they are close in age. Males as well, may not get along with other males even though, the bloodiest fights are generally among female dogs. Many times, two dogs of the same sex may need to be kept separated all the time, especially when not supervised. Neutering and spaying may help prevent hormonally based fights.
A New Addition
The introduction of a new dog to the pack may create altercations over rank. This is often quite visible when owners add a third dog to their pack. The fights may be due to the dog being dominant in nature and therefore, challenging the authority of the current alpha member, or the dog may be corrected by other intermediate pack members so to let him know his place in the pack.
Owner Intervention
One major problem derives from the owner when he or she intervenes to 'save the insubordinate pack member'. For instance, the owner may feel sorry for the submissive dog and may feel the need to punish the alpha for acting dominant. This creates further rank issues and confusion over pack dynamics, further exacerbating the problems and creating the ideal grounds for fights.
.Lack of Leadership
Owners who care for a pack must establish a strong leadership role. Failure to do so, will cause fights among the other pack leaders over rank. An owner with strong leadership skills has the power to control his dogs and avoid fights among pack members.
Genetic Predisposition
Some dog breeds may tend to be dominant and may simply not do well in a multi-dog environment, especially when exposed to same sex dogs. Good research is important before selecting a specific dog breed.
Adding a new dog to a home may be an exciting adventure, however, it needs careful planning and strong leadership. Good research on breed, sex, age and temperament should be conducted. Owning a multi -dog pack is not recommended for inexperienced dog owners because it requires a good understanding of pack drive and strong leaderships skills.

Reference:*


----------



## SVain (Jul 9, 2015)

Its of course because she wants to be the leader, but the problem is that she is already the leader! Roxie doesn't challenge her, it's submissive, what else she wants? If i leave her free -my mistake the first time- she goes to Roxie, smells her and then attacks her, but Roxie doesn't provoke her she of course defends herself the way she can but is Kyra who starts the fight apparently without motive.




> Often females do not tend to get along well
> bloodiest fights are generally among female dogs


i always thought those where the males, good to know


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Roxy is weak and unhealthy. Your young girl is weeding out the weak from the pack. They are NOT safe left alone. Stop leaving them loose with each other. Roxy will end up seriously hurt or worse.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kyra does not want to be Roxie's friend. You are humanizing your animals, and they are both going to pay the price for that. The one will die, and the other will forever be tainted in your eyes for killing your other dog. Don't let that happen.

Your old dog is OLD. She is not long for this world. Keep your bitches separate and when it is time to let the old one go, don't bring home another bitch, not even a puppy. Bitches are known for fighting with bitches, and it being worse than dog-dog fighting. So when Roxie goes, seriously consider leaving your girl as an only, or bring in a male pup. But not another bitch.

Bitches are quick and sneaky. They WILL wait for an opportunity, and then you better be there and be quick. So for now, you are just going to have to be vigilent. 

It is NOT fair to tie the one dog. Keep two crates and crate one and let the other out. Then crate that one and let the other out. It is called musical crates. It is what people have to be willing to do when they own more than one bitch. If you can't do that, then buy a kennel for your basement or garage or back yard, and kennel one while the other is loose, crate and switch. 

This is manageable, but you have be hyper-vigilent.

I know no one is going to like this, but you could put the old one down. I don't even like the idea, she is unsteady, falls unconcious for a few seconds/minutes and then is ok -- I would take this as a signal that the inevitable is not far off. But, so long as the dog's still finds enjoyment in food, pets, something, as long as there are as many good days as bad days, I wouldn't want to put the old dog down, and especially if I am going to blame it on the younger dog. But, at 15, I wouldn't rehome the younger one, and I wouldn't try to make them like each other, I wouldn't waste money trying to find a trainer/behaviorist that says they can make that happen. 

Good luck.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SVain said:


> Its of course because she wants to be the leader, but the problem is that she is already the leader! Roxie doesn't challenge her, it's submissive, what else she wants? If i leave her free -my mistake the first time- she goes to Roxie, smells her and then attacks her, but Roxie doesn't provoke her she of course defends herself the way she can but is Kyra who starts the fight apparently without motive.
> i always thought those where the males, good to know


The "reason" at this point, doesn't really matter!

Keeping "Roxie" safe does! I "think" Kyra is OK??? Is not going to cut it! 

Either rehome Kyra ,put the "old dog down" or "man up" as it were and keep her safe! Otherwise "Roxies remaining days will be filled with terror and pain! You made a mistake! Your not alone, lots of us have! It's what we do afterwards, that makes a difference!

Get a muzzle and use it, if they have to be together. Crate and rotate otherwise. No more, "I" think she's OK??? Because "you" don't know! 

And training and walks one on one with "Kyra" and walks together while muzzled with Roxie.

Train the "Place Command:" 
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! - TheDogTrainingSecret.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

And train a solid "Down" and "Stay!" I'm a Boxer guy and in Boxer world two female in the same household is a hard "NO!" But when I train a dog to do something...they best do it!Two females females or not! They don't have to "like" each other but they best respect each other! 

Quit worrying about the "why" of it and start keeping "Roxie" safe!


----------



## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Please keep them separate. Kyra will kill Roxie. I have 2 females that would kill each other if not kept separate 100% of the time. Fixing the bully bitch did not help.


----------



## SVain (Jul 9, 2015)

So today i seen whats the problem actually, i put Kyra a muzzle and take her where Roxie is, She begins smelling her and giving her kisses in a nervously manner (like she always does) then Roxie gets tired of her and kicks her out, that's when Kyra gets crazy, she has a muzzle so they couldn't fight and Roxie ran away.
This thing of Kyra giving her kisses very nervously and sometimes growling at her while she gives her kisses is very common, the difference is that now she gets angry and wants to kill her when Roxie try to stop it.


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

The "nervous kisses" are a sign of anxiety. Keep the two dogs apart for the comfort and safety of your old dog. Even with a muzzle the younger dog has enough power to bruise your older dog and cause health problems.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SVain said:


> So today i seen whats the problem actually, i put Kyra a muzzle and take her where Roxie is, She begins smelling her and giving her kisses in a nervously manner (like she always does) then Roxie gets tired of her and kicks her out, that's when Kyra gets crazy, she has a muzzle so they couldn't fight and Roxie ran away.
> This thing of Kyra giving her kisses very nervously and sometimes growling at her while she gives her kisses is very common, the difference is that now she gets angry and wants to kill her when Roxie try to stop it.


 I want to stop reading this thread, because this is going to end badly.

Stop torturing Roxie! She is old, and deserves to have some peace in her world.
Pretty sure Selzer already said this:
Your dogs are not humans, they don't want to be friends!
Either commit to a routine of rotating them, or do the humane thing and put your old girl down!
Everyone has told you this will end badly if you insist on putting these two together, and no one hear wants to wake up and read that Kyra killed Roxie or tore her up so bad that she was PTS.


----------



## SVain (Jul 9, 2015)

No im not going to leave the two alone, Kyra had a muzzle and also i had her controlled with a chain, i just wanted to see if they might get along again or what was the thing, i think is important to understand the problem and now i get its just Kyra who wants to rule and Roxie who just won't take it, and that's super normal (unlike Kyra wanting to kill Roxie just for being old or worse for being the killer type). 
Just want to fix the problem since everything was okay until yesterday its not that all these three years they had a bad relationship, they played a lot (except last year because Roxie cant) and sleep together every day, of course always Roxie being the boss
I guess that now Kyra wants for be the leader they might not be friends again but who knows just wanted to see if i can fix the situation before taking decisions like rehoming or modify the house for separate them, don't worry anyway i wont leave them alone unless im 100% sure they won't fight.


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Just to let you know. I have a friend that has two female rescues. Both are totally sweet dogs. They will sleep together on the same mattress. They will play together. They eat in the same room. But, every once in awhile the two fight and when they do it is vicious, ending with both taken to the vet with stitches. If this happened with your two, your old dog would not stand a chance of coming out of it well. I have talked to my friend about what is going to happen but she is in denial and one day one of her dogs is going to pay for her denial. Please don't be that person.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SVain said:


> No im not going to leave the two alone, Kyra had a muzzle and also i had her controlled with a chain, i just wanted to see if they might get along again or what was the thing, i think is important to understand the problem and now i get its just Kyra who wants to rule and Roxie who just won't take it, and that's super normal (unlike Kyra wanting to kill Roxie just for being old or worse for being the killer type).
> Just want to fix the problem since everything was okay until yesterday its not that all these three years they had a bad relationship, they played a lot (except last year because Roxie cant) and sleep together every day, of course always Roxie being the boss
> I guess that now Kyra wants for be the leader they might not be friends again but who knows just wanted to see if i can fix the situation before taking decisions like rehoming or modify the house for separate them, don't worry anyway* i wont leave them alone unless im 100% sure they won't fight*.


 
This is the issue. You can't be. 
Understand that I am not being mean, but you seem really resistant.
There was no issue before because your younger dog was a juvenile. 
A minor fight at her age could have devastating affects on your old dog.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

They should not even be in the same room together without one being crated. You have been given the same really good advice over and over here and you are still trying to fix it? You can't. Selzer summed it up. Please take it from us, who have seen this personally. Give your oldie a sweet end of her life instead of torturing her with the stress she has to endure now by experiments. And enjoy your young dog so you don't have to blame her any longer.


----------



## SVain (Jul 9, 2015)

Again problems with her, i'm doing Crate & Rotate so Roxie is safe, but now she get angry with my dashound, lucky i was just there so i could take her away before any bite, it was just for 2 secs because i grab her by the collar before she could do anything so i don't know if it was a warning or she was going to bite him, still concerns me a lot, first because he is a dashound and wont take much, i think just one bite can leave it bad, also he is 14 years old, and second because he is very proud and may not submit to her and that is going to end in a fight.
Its like she is being very in dominiant and agressive lately, what can i do to correct this behaviour? i cant have her just like this, how can i punish her? i never hit her because i think it would make it worse, so i scream and tie her but she doesn't seems to care very much... she is the rebel-type 
The motive of the fight was because i grab some cookies, and usually give them both a little, i think she wanted to put him aside so she gets all the cookies, anyway i just grab them wasn't even going to give them.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Do you have anything else to throw into this drama? Where does the Dachshund come from or did I miss that in all this chaos?
It's starting to become a doggy soap opera (USA day time show about all kinds of drama about people and their relationships; never ends and also new characters appearing out of nowhere). Sorry, couldn't resist the analogy.
You have had all the advice possible so either you use it or don't.


----------



## SVain (Jul 9, 2015)

... I don't think my dachshund was worth mentioning before since it wasn't involved, do you think i'm being dramatic? i don't think leaving my bitch bulling the others dogs is a good think, just looking for advice because i can't control her, i appreciate any advice now if you don't care about the problem or don't have anything to say just don't answer my thread and done i didn't ask you anything


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Don't tie the bitch. Crate her if you must, but don't tie her up. You will increase her frustration. You have had good advice. Work with it. Keep your elderly dogs safe, and when they go, do not replace them.

Dogs should NEVER be put down due to dog aggressive issues. We expect dogs to live harmoniously with other dogs. If they cannot live with humans, than that is a reason to put the dog down. But there is just no excuse with dogs. You can rehome one to a home without dogs, or you can separate. When you chose to have multiple dogs, you should have had a plan for this eventuality. It is not the dog's fault that you cannot manage her properly so this doesn't happen. Forcing her to be around the other bitch, tying her, having another dog in and out of there while everything is so charged up is a problem with your management. 

You need to section your house off and give different dogs different areas. You need to section your time out and give different dogs different times. You need to work with the youngster, exercise her, give her attention and training, but until the others are dead, you also need to manage her so that she does not attack them. The only fix you can count on is proper management.


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Please consider the advice you have been given here. I know English is not your first language, we all understand that, but I know you understand what members here are telling you. Protect your older dog or put it down. It is not kind to the older dog to have to put up with another dog attacking it on its own home. Crate train the younger dog and work, work, work, with training on the aggression. I don't even know what to say about the doxie. Keep it safe. One crunch from GSD jaws and it doesn't stand a chance. If you are keeping all three dogs, keep them separate. That is the only way you can make sure the older dogs are not harassed by the younger one. Letting the younger more powerful dog attack the older one over and over because you can't control it amounts to neglect. Consider how you would feel if another more powerful person moved into your house then decided to take your food, push you around and tell you what to do. You would not be happy.


----------

