# Gildo vom Koerbelbach, Olko, Orly vom Baerenfang



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey guys, 

I didn't want to invade the other topic. 

How many dogs are there left, in the US and Canada, that are heavy on Gildo blood (3rd maybe even 2nd Generation). 

I would really like to know since I'd like to go back to Gildo. 

I am also looking for dogs that have Olko and Orly vom Baerenfang. These two produced like Gildo, however they weren't used much at all, especially Orly is hard to find.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You will probably have your best luck finding Gildo through Arek Stoffelblick and, even then, he will be back a few generations. Gildo was born in 1980. That is 32 years ago. Even Arek was born in 1984. The O litter Bärenfang was born in 1983. That is a lot of generations in dogs.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am seeing Gildo mostly in 5th and 6th generations.. my male has him in 6th/motherline. Would love to know what dogs in USA/CA have him closer up, as well!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vala has him in her 4th and his son Arek in the 3rd, but you will probably be hard pressed to find him closer than the 5th and 6th for the most part.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I can't imagine you'll find him that close these days. Kaiser had him in the 3rd, but he passed a couple months ago at almost 14 years old. Ira has him in her 4th, but she'll be 13 this December. As Ira was our foundation bitch all of our dogs have Gildo, but it's back to 5th and 6th generation now. Our A litter was linebred 4-5 on Gildo, but they'll be turning 11 years old in a few months. Too many years have gone by to find him close in a pedigree anymore.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> I can't imagine you'll find him that close these days. Kaiser had him in the 3rd, but he passed a couple months ago at almost 14 years old. Ira has him in her 4th, but she'll be 13 this December. As Ira was our foundation bitch all of our dogs have Gildo, but it's back to 5th and 6th generation now. Our A litter was linebred 4-5 on Gildo, but they'll be turning 11 years old in a few months. Too many years have gone by to find him close in a pedigree anymore.


That was my understanding, which is the unfortunate reality. As time goes on and our good producers are pushed farther back, all we can really do is try to find their descendents who best represent what they were.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I have Madina, who is linebred 3-5 on Gildo. But she was never bred (due to her temperament), and just turned 11.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There have always been varying opinions on this dog.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Vandal said:


> There have always been varying opinions on this dog.
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UBubvq8Lxc
> ...


Not impressed at all with those two videos.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Wild Wolf said:


> Not impressed at all with those two videos.


Careful, that's my dad we are talking about here. 
But yeah, he was off in Darmstadt because something was going on with a new helper and my dad couldn't get it worked out before the trial, if I remember correctly. 

What pisses me off is that they had to take that performance. 
We've got tons of VHS videos of Gildo at home (back in Germany) but my dad is not the type of person that wants to be on the internet and even back then they already recorded the trial and you could buy the movies and what do they use? Darmstadt! . So there is nothing anyone can really do about. 

Yukon has him in the 3rd and he'll turn 9. 
So I guess he is the last one out of the kennel...maybe I should take the chance or have him collected.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Alice, dam of my A & B's, had him in 4th via Arek....her dam was by Arek...but nothing alive and available from her for breeding   I would really liked to have gotten my breedings to her son - but....hey.....life happens....

She was also linebred on Mutz....

I believe Raino Flugge had a litter line bred on Gildo??? Lisa may remember...


Lee


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Careful, that's my dad we are talking about here.
> But yeah, he was off in Darmstadt because something was going on with a new helper and my dad couldn't get it worked out before the trial, if I remember correctly.


My apologies, no offense meant whatsoever. I just hate to see a dog in transport and steal a bite and have to be pulled off. Have seen many videos of Gildo, and as I mentioned I really like this male! Again, I just meant these two videos were upsetting.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Remember, this was 25 years ago!! The precision that gets the points now was not common (from teh videos I have watched) and power, strength and aggression was rewarded with points rather than the dog staring at the handler throughout! I enjoyed seeing this dog, even with the differences in handling, he shows his drive and personality! I knew your father used Gildo as a sire, but did not know he actually owned him Sandra...

correction - he was in 3 on Alice, 4 on her progeny....

Lee


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Remember, this was 25 years ago!! The precision that gets the points now was not common (from teh videos I have watched) and power, strength and aggression was rewarded with points rather than the dog staring at the handler throughout! I enjoyed seeing this dog, even with the differences in handling, he shows his drive and personality! I knew your father used Gildo as a sire, but did not know he actually owned him Sandra...
> 
> correction - he was in 3 on Alice, 4 on her progeny....
> 
> Lee


Absolutely!!  :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Yeah--before you comment too much about the obed or control, watch some other videos from the 80s. Such a different sport!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

linebred on Gildo 5-4 - Aragon vom Sophienhof - working-dog.eu

Chash vd Suderholmer Strasse and Lump v Cap Arkona
linebred on Arek, with Wotan, Happy, and Fricka Baerenfang: Chash von der Suderholmer Strasse - German Shepherd Dog
SG Lump vom Cap Arkona - German Shepherd Dog

Hardy v Struwwelpeter
linebred on Gildo, 4,5-4
5 geneneration pedigree for Hardy vom Struwwelpeter - German Shepherd Dog


Bruno v Midlicher Land
Wotan in the 3rd generation
Bruno vom Midlicher Land - German Shepherd Dog

Czcibor
Orly in the 4th
Czcibor - German Shepherd Dog

Nick del Lupo Nero
Gildo in the 4th
5 geneneration pedigree for Nick del Lupo Nero - German Shepherd Dog

Lubeck vd Mahler-Meister
Gildo 5-5, Orly 5-4
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=627896

Many more dogs linebred on Orly: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=5980&p=reverse-linebreeding


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good research Christine!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I'm trying to understand what is being said here. Seems people are saying SchH was so different back then and that is the reason for Gildo's performance? You think that all the dogs back then were out of control and it was allowed and not penalized? That's just not true. Yeah, you would not be dismissed but you did lose points each time the dog bothered or in this case, bit the helper.

I'll agree you can see his drive and his "personality" and not all of that is good. I have seen dogs like this and worked them. Hardness to the point of being not very trainable. When I say hard, I mean where the dog is basically not affected by corrections. Fights right through them and then you see this aggressive behavior when he is asked for obedience. In this case, it is channeled into the helper but I saw sons where it was not. The dog should be able to contain himself much better. His behavior in these videos says something about the dog, this is not just the training. 

Is it a huge problem to see this dog in a pedigree? No, but it depends on the rest of the pedigree. As was already mentioned, he is far back now, so , his influence is deminished. I had a female who was 4-5 on Gildo, ( and I did not do the breeding because of that, I can assure you), I didn't see this side of Gildo at all in that dog. She had a big grip and fight drive but there were other dogs in the pedigree who brought that as well, without the ,( for the lack of a better term), ...nastiness. 

What this line represents to me is hardness. When you have too much hardness, you get what people refer to as stubborn. Watch the transports and the heeling to the escape. Does that look familiar to anyone? I've read scathing comments when people watch some of the show dogs heeling this way. Believe it or not, there is a similarity here. Maybe most people do not view show line dogs as being "hard" but back then, ( and I even see some today), you could find show line dogs who just would not respond to corrections. That weird hardness where you could watch people being very harsh with the dogs and there would be no response. Like correcting a tree. As a general rule, the dogs back then were harder and the heeling in the transport was not about prancing and looking up at the handler. However, you can see what it took to get this dog to kind of stay with the handler when their was some distance from the helper and then of course, the inability of the handler to control him when the helper was just too close for the dog to contain himself. BTW, I think the handler did a good job considering what he was dealing with. 

Nowadays, I think we could use more hardness in the breed, so not a bad line to consider. However, you do not have to sacrifice hardness and fight drive for a lack of trainability. Nowadays, we have dogs who are very obedient, again, they could use some hardness and certainly fight drive. This dog had that. At the time however, there were dogs who had both trainability and the right degree of hardness. We discussed the Caro Allerswald influence on the Euro list. These dogs were not easy to train...at all. Not my kind of dog, so people can consider my bias when they read this.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Dang! I would hate to piss that dog off in a real life situation!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not your source of genetic obedience !


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , earlier this year I remember you said something about Gildo having good herding instinct . What can you say about that.
The information that I have says that the person who had Gildo before your father, said he was a hunting dog , good at dispatching wild hogs -- ??
We seem to be getting two very different views of the dog.

I am just buring brain cells trying to remember a kennel in Quebec (schutzhund sport) that did a lot of heavy linebreeding on Gildo . Do you think the name would come? I know a person who bought several of these dogs , the favoured dogs in his club . They did not appeal to me .


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Mrs K , earlier this year I remember you said something about Gildo having good herding instinct . What can you say about that.
> The information that I have says that the person who had Gildo before your father, said he was a hunting dog , good at dispatching wild hogs -- ??
> We seem to be getting two very different views of the dog.
> 
> I am just buring brain cells trying to remember a kennel in Quebec (schutzhund sport) that did a lot of heavy linebreeding on Gildo . Do you think the name would come? I know a person who bought several of these dogs , the favoured dogs in his club . They did not appeal to me .


There's Raino Flugge's kennel and then there's [schutzhund judge whose name I have forgotten] who imported and owned Mythus v Koerbelbach and bred Dune v Bergblick (and other dogs who I am not familiar with): 

Dune: Dune von Bergblick - German Shepherd Dog

Raino's current dog, Kofi:
V Kofi vom Kiebitzende - German Shepherd Dog
http://www.germanshepherddogs.ca/


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I believe you are talking about Lance Collins.

Ulk Bungalow was also in Canada owned by a man named Fred Scharpf (sp). Frank Mensing, (also a judge), handled Ulk at the 1983 Europameister, (WUSV), the same year I went with my dog Vandal. Ulk also stayed at my friend's kennel for a time in the mid 80s. Donn was also owned by Egon Vorrath. Von Enztal was his kennel name as I recall. Canadians seemed to like the Bungalow/Korbelbach dogs...or some of them did anyway. Some connection there with Ritzi I guess.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no ladies, none of those .
pooop pooop plink -- that is the sound of my last worn out grey cell falling to the floor - so I used my "life line" to ask Mike , otherwise I would be thinking about it all night - told him , guy in Quebec , all the schutzhund people around here went to him - almost all members of a certain club -- linebreed on Gildo -- and in a split second he had "it"

BruceLee kennels -- Chenil de Bruce Lee: To know me better ... used Mex Barenfang


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> no ladies, none of those .
> pooop pooop plink -- that is the sound of my last worn out grey cell falling to the floor - so I used my "life line" to ask Mike , otherwise I would be thinking about it all night - told him , guy in Quebec , all the schutzhund people around here went to him - almost all members of a certain club -- linebreed on Gildo -- and in a split second he had "it"
> 
> BruceLee kennels -- Chenil de Bruce Lee: To know me better ... used Mex Barenfang


I was just talking to Mom about Mex. I believe Christine found a dog that had Mex in the pedigree but it turned out the dog was dead. I believe a dog that was in Canada too, not even that far away from here. 

As for Gildo, from my knowledge, he never went hunting after hogs. I asked my dad about it and to he doesn't know anything about hog hunting either and he watched his training closely before he bought him. 

He did have herding instinct and he did pass it on. Best example is Dixie. 
She rounded up sheep and helped bringing them in. They would have went on the road and probably died, if it wasn't for that dog. Never had a single day of training in herding, she just did it. They were already outside the gate. 

All of them had/have it.
You could also see it with the horses. The dogs ran the paths/trail, all the way down and back around "to keep the horses together". I don't exactly know how you call it. 
And I believe I'm not the only one who knows that they have the herding instinct and that Gildo passed it on.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I was just talking to Mom about Mex. I believe Christine found a dog that had Mex in the pedigree but it turned out the dog was dead. I believe a dog that was in Canada too, not even that far away from here.


Wasn't this Kofi? I know someone in New England has a litter of his puppies on the ground right now--you sure he's dead? 

http://www.germanshepherddogs.ca/

Edited to add: Yes--Kofi is at the WUSV Championships right now--just posted a 72 point tracking score.


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## coldwetnose (Jan 22, 2010)

Just to clarify, Doug Deacon imported and owned & trialled Mythus v Koerbelbach.

Lance Collins owned and bred Dune v Bergblick, he still breeds under the kennel name vom Bergblick.

Frank Mensing bred GSD under the kennel name vom Norbreeze, and his wife bred Rotties under the kennel name vom Pacifica.

Juergen and his son Micheal were very well liked by the Canadians and sold many dogs to them, also were over for many seminars and judged many trials.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

e


BlackthornGSD said:


> Wasn't this Kofi? I know someone in New England has a litter of his puppies on the ground right now--you sure he's dead?
> 
> http://www.germanshepherddogs.ca/
> 
> Edited to add: Yes--Kofi is at the WUSV Championships right now--just posted a 72 point tracking score.


Ack, sorry. I am trying to remember. You showed me one dog that either had Gildo or another Baerenfang in there, that we both liked. He was standing in Canada. They e also did SAR. Not too far from the thousand island area. 
It was a really nice dog too. Maybe I can find it on mom's facebook.
edit: only sent her Kofi. Darnit. I'll go through the stuff and see if I can find that dog. It was a REALLY nice dog. CZIBOR! It was CZIBOR! 
She said "He was a really special dog for sure." so I'm guessing the dog no longer lives.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Speaking about bärenfang, I know a nice male here in sweden that is after this female, can you say anything about her father pilot, linebreed on gildo some times,
Chade's Malou - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just did a quick look -- lot of fast normals on there


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

björn said:


> Speaking about bärenfang, I know a nice male here in sweden that is after this female, can you say anything about her father pilot, linebreed on gildo some times,
> Chade's Malou - German Shepherd Dog


Personally I can't. He was born and handled during my very rebellious martial arts and "I'm all into Quarter Horses" time. I tried to talk to dad but the connection was so bad that I lost him several times and he couldn't understand a word I was saying, so I'll try tomorrow.


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