# TIGHT Inbreeding



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

What are your experiences with WL dogs inbred tight. Goal oriented not accidental, on good dogs. 
Im talking brother/sister, parent/progeny, grandparent/grandprogeny, dogs appearing several times close up etc. 

This seems to be more common with Mal/Dutchy folks, hunting dogs and game bred dogs. 

From what I hear the benifits (if it works out well) are extremely prepotent typey dogs that pass on their genetics well and you will be more likely to run into the potential pit falls in your bloodline.

The downsides are smaller litters, and bad recessives popping up both temperment and health. Obviously one would assume you would cull hard.

So any experiences good bad with such a work oriented breeding? Seems like going tight with appropriate outcrosses from time to time would increase the likelyhood of the pups you want expressing the traits you want..or thats the idea anyways.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think it is good idea today with most West dogs, but some years ago you could do it with the right compliments. Jmo


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

What makes it more possible with mals and dutchies?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Just wrote a long piece on this subject on another venue, don't want to bore people on this forum, but basically it goes back to the beginnings of these breeds. In summary, the German Shepherd needs to be balanced for continuity of keeping it strong,( compensation breeding), Mals/Dutchies naturally have stronger singular traits that when amplified still allow the dog to be functional to its purpose. Sorry about lateness of response, I only check this forum about once a week.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GSD are like a complex stew , many ingredients without one dominant trait.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Tight inbreeding?? Inbreeding is always tight breeding.


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## Wanderer (Apr 9, 2011)

I'd love to be pointed to the longer piece you did on this topic


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My boyfriends dog is linebred 2-3 on Ellute, which I consider a relatively tight linebreeding. He is an incredible dog, balanced in the house with any other dogs/people and environmentally stable everywhere else. He has incredible drive in all 3 phases of IPO. Super, super stable dog. Just had xrays done and hips and elbows looks great. But that's my only experience with a breeding of this type.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Just wrote a long piece on this subject on another venue, don't want to bore people on this forum, but basically it goes back to the beginnings of these breeds. In summary, the German Shepherd needs to be balanced for continuity of keeping it strong,( compensation breeding), Mals/Dutchies naturally have stronger singular traits that when amplified still allow the dog to be functional to its purpose. Sorry about lateness of response, I only check this forum about once a week.


 
Id love a link.

The Ellute breeding sounds interesting. Its hard to find nice tight breedings like that. Was there a lot of variation in the litter?

So correct me if Im wrong, you are saying that mals/dutchys tend to express things like drive and nerve more strongly then GSDs? So GSD breedings tend to be more about offsetting weakness instead of emphasising and concentrating strengths?

Would the issue be a lack of worthy individuals to go tight on? Or to many negative recessives within the pool of potentially worthy individuals?


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## coachcj (Jul 22, 2013)

Very interesting question that I've always though about myself, Blitzkrieg1. I've never seen a half brother half sister breeding (2-2)with the GSD and every time I've even seen it mentioned, I've seen the way people cringe. I've always wondered about it, because in the other breeds that you mentioned (Mals/Dutchies, hounds, sporting dogs, game bred dogs,hunting terriers,etc.), it's quite common. Showing a GSD pedigree to a fancier from one of the other working breeds and mentioning a dog bred 5-4 on a famous GSD,(say Mink) would be almost laughable . One thing I've learned is when looking at a GSD pedigree, you REALLY have to know WHERE those traits are coming from. Cliffson, I do understand a lot better now that you have mentioned the balance of the breed and being able to maintain it. I had always thought of other reasons.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes I had the same thought. On another thread people are talking about dogs 100 years back like they matter. Its common on here for people to get excited about 5-5 or 4-4 and I dont get that. Now 2-2 or 1-2 is a lot more interesting from my stand point.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

They are . 
You need to know why things are the way they are . Like reading history and understanding todays headline about conflict in the Balkans.

Let's you understand what ought to be , what is missing what is maintained .

you can never know too much


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> They are .
> You need to know why things are the way they are . Like reading history and understanding todays headline about conflict in the Balkans.
> 
> Let's you understand what ought to be , what is missing what is maintained .
> ...


Thats why I look at the grandparents, parents or even great grandparents. Beyond that its all just guess work IMO. Perhaps one day I will see evidence to refute this but not yet..

**OT political comment removed**


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

However I think we are sidetracked here geo politics and dog breeding are somewhat different..

But for the sake of argument you can look to my parents and grandparents to see the traits I express mentally and physically. Beyond that its really not helpful. Im an outcross btw. Perhaps if there had been generations of inbreeding the story would be different. Kind of like the aristocrasy of Europe during the 1600s. A great example of inbreeding and its potential pitfalls..lol.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I removed several OT political comments just in case people wonder where they vanished to.  ADMIN


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Oh I don't know about that....I think I could let you look at the 1st,2nd, and 3rd generation of a breeding, and I look at the 4th, 5th, and 6th generation, ( without seeing first three generations) and I think I could project the type of breeding it would be as well as you. But if I could what would you attribute it too?....possible luck?....or maybe those gens still have an impact. Of course you could be right and maybe I wouldn't have a clue with just those latter generations....lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

right Cliff ! unless you know what was then you have no idea where you have gone , or where you are going .

there is a lot that is missing in current breeding. 

the dogs from 100 years have no importance , yet the words of the man who "made" the breed are ? The GSD as a breed is complex. The needs and uses of the GSD as a breed are complex and fill many niches that other breeds do not . That is demanding . It requires balance. The dog's use in the 21st century is going to be interesting with increased and more sophisticated use in policing and detection.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Oh I don't know about that....I think I could let you look at the 1st,2nd, and 3rd generation of a breeding, and I look at the 4th, 5th, and 6th generation, ( without seeing first three generations) and I think I could project the type of breeding it would be as well as you. But if I could what would you attribute it too?....possible luck?....or maybe those gens still have an impact. Of course you could be right and maybe I wouldn't have a clue with just those latter generations....lol


I always find your pedigree anylisis interesting. 
I get that a breeder which has been using their own dogs and line breeding for successive generations would be able to predict what the pups would be. Assuming ofcourse that they are actually working and testing their dogs and culling appropriately..which again seems to be rare.

However, the majority of dogs you find around here are outcrosses and have been that way for several generations. Even assuming you knew the individual dogs how could the 5th or 6th generation tell you what traits the resulting pups inherited from the parents and how those pups produced when combined with the next generation and so on and so on.

There are so many intangibles. The expression of the pups as outcrosses create variation in progeny, what the breeders goals where with the litter and Im sure more that Im not thinking of.

I believe the parents, grand parents and even great grandparents can give you some idea of what pups will be but the dogs 60-100 years back?

Iv talked to a few well respected breeders and they always say one thing. They find strong females, breed them to the extreme males and keep back the best females to repeat the process.

One of them even laughed when I asked about pedigrees and their impact on his breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I understand....I have always said that I seem to have a lot of luck in picking out dogs from overseas, when I have never seen any of the parents for the first three generations, I think the advice about importance of females is right on. I see a lot of Showline breeders that place extremely high importance on just the first three generations.....as the further you go back they are all related anyway; they get much uniformity but they pay price in other areas. Anyway, like I said, maybe valuing these latter generations really doesn't have a clue. Things are different these days....it will be interesting to see as our breed develops.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here you go Blitzkrieg Carlie Vom Haus Fleming


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

That is my little girl's grandma! I would love to hear opinions on this pedigree Macro vom Gildaf


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> here you go Blitzkrieg Carlie Vom Haus Fleming


Thats a very interesting pedigree. However, I would be very worried about the close breeding on Brawnson. He sounds like a dog that had the perfect ballance of nerve, suspicion and aggression on the edge of being too much..but not if that makes any sense. Which does not seem like it generally carried over well..if the word on the street is anything to go by. 

It seems like in many encountered issues with health and nerve with line breedings or even straightup offspring.. You have Diehl's dog Kutter which doesnt seem to be the dog his father was, and Nates dog Stuka which I think is one of his best sons in my biased opinion due to the nerve and thresholds coming through from the mothers side...

I like him in a pedigree once but to be quite honest I would be worried about too much. Not saying it wouldnt work but I think many of the litter be culls..
Still learning so I could be wayy off base. Its all jmo


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm a newbie and don't know how to read a pedigree


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Thank you! She is quite a fireball. We love her.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I would also be worried about the line breeding because in both cases the dams side are Czeck and while I dont know the individual dogs, I dont think the general Czeck characteristics work well with what Brawnson brought to the table especially concentrated in a line breeding..again jmo..

Disregard misread just one of the dams bred to brawnson was Czeck.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

What sort of health issues? She has strong nerves but can get overaroused easily, we are overcoming it with training and structure and she seems to be coming into herself more at 2. Definitely a tempestuous teen though


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Theres a guy in the Portugal that just did a breeding 2-3 breeding on Pike, Kept females back and sent out the males. They look pretty good so far.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She also just happened to be our first dog lol. And she came back to the breeder before. But a lot of teen working line German shepherds are testers, right?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Anyway, thank you for the pedigree reading. Any insights on her brother?
Viking vom Gildaf


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

glowingtoadfly said:


> What sort of health issues? She has strong nerves but can get overaroused easily, we are overcoming it with training and structure and she seems to be coming into herself more at 2. Definitely a tempestuous teen though


How where the hip / elbows? Was she titled in a bite sport, how did she handle pressure? Was she social/Neutral towards dogs/people?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We haven't had her hips/ elbows checked out, but she is very athletic and healthy so far. She does fine with other dogs, there has been one she doesn't get along with, I think it is a personality difference. She barks at other dogs on walks sometimes but it seems to be that she's frustrated because she can't play, because she goes belly down in a play bow when she meets then. We have another dog who she gets along very well with with only a few spats. She loves strangers but is a bit hand shy- once she growled at a waitress at a dog friendly restaurant for petting her, and she doesnt much like the vet but we are working on it. She greets the pizza delivery man with much affection.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We have thought about Schutzhund for her but the local clubs are too far away. I always keep in mind with her that I do not know her learning history with her previous home, and how far we have brought her from where she was when we took her home nine months ago.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think you two are talking about two different dogs. Blitzkreig may be asking about Carlie, and glowingtoadfly about the grand daughter Macro??


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes Im talking about Carlie as that was the tightly inbred dog.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

just very excited to get insights


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Maybe a bit too excited, sorry for jumping on the thread lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Glowing, a woman that trains in agility where I train obedience has an almost full sister to your Macro. She is by Buzz, out of an Erri daughter (from haus Flemming) whose mother goes back on Brawnson (can't remember if she is a daughter or granddaughter). I thought it was a littermate to your dog, but she is not a Gildaf dog. 

HMMMMM, I think this is her pedigree (I don't think this is her) so her mother and your Macro are out of full sisters and by Buzz. 
lady de excaliber


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Blitz, Mike has told me that Kutter is the best street dog he has ever worked so for that area of work he has been better than his father.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I bet she is a very intelligent, drivey girl too  Ours is.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Id love a link.
> 
> The Ellute breeding sounds interesting. Its hard to find nice tight breedings like that. Was there a lot of variation in the litter?
> 
> ...


Pedigree of the Ellute linebreeding.

G Wuma zur Bindenburg

Hips are OFA good, elbows normal. Just came back 2 weeks ago or so.

The rest of the litter showed similar traits, though many were sold in active family homes without an issue. It was repeated and the pups are now almost 16 weeks I think. They showed a lot of nice promise and great qualities as puppies though. I know LoveEcho has a female from the repeat breeding who is developing nicely.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Blitz, Mike has told me that Kutter is the best street dog he has ever worked so for that area of work he has been better than his father.


 
Interesting that he says that. I was looking through his website and noticed he doesnt seem to have any females from Brawnson or Kutter that he lists. Do you know if he has kept any back and how they turned out?

Not that Im questioning Mike but you would think a Brawnson son better or equal to the father would have more "hype" then he does..

Nice breeding Gator I would love to see video of the Ellute pups. Very interesting, I would have thought such a breeding would have IPO people banging down the door.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I don't pay attention to Mike's breeding program, to be honest. I have seen one very nice female/puppy by Kutter, but that is it. Once I am down there training regularly I might see more. He and I just happened to be talking about the dogs he has worked on the streets when the comment about Kutter was made.


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## Ryanhaus (Dec 9, 2010)

<here you go Blitzkrieg Carlie Vom Haus Fleming>

Carlie is a beautiful girl, I was wondering if she has an elbow rating...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wuma isn't the tight inbreeding that Blitzkrieg is wanting to study


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Wuma isn't the tight inbreeding that Blitzkrieg is wanting to study


What are you talking about?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry meant to provide an example of what Blitzkrieg is curious about
Projays Femanus

father to daughter breeding .

good thread on inbred lines -- http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/163524-inbred-lines.html


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Pedigree of the Ellute linebreeding.
> 
> G Wuma zur Bindenburg
> 
> ...


 
this -- I see he asked for a link, and I am saying though this is not particularly tight inbreeding .


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## coachcj (Jul 22, 2013)

carmspack said:


> sorry meant to provide an example of what Blitzkrieg is curious about
> Projays Femanus
> 
> father to daughter breeding .
> ...


I think this answer from Cliff (from the given link)pretty much answers my question (after many years of me wondering and asking)


" it becomes complex with this breed because of the initial makeup of the breed in the first place. People like Christine, Chris, Lee, Lisa, Carmen, Sue, know of lines that are super strong in temperament especially nerve and hardness. But....some of these lines over the years have proven to show a higher incidence of HD. Do you not use these lines because you increase the chances of HD....Heaven forbid, if you want the breed to remain as courageous as its past. Yet you cannot continually pound these lines generation after generation or the HD factor will increase in severity until the functionality of the dog is compromised. So there has to be a balance, because the breed was created out of balances and when it strays to far from the middle, it inadvertently affects more than one area. "


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you can be very selective against hip dysplasia , which is multi factorial, needing attention to genetics, nutrition and environment .

you look into the depth of good hip production , not just what the breeding individuals are.

there is a misconception that an excellent will produce better than a fair. there is a misunderstanding about the nature of "fair" many thinking it is on the verge of falling apart , when it is not . 

In Germany, Mutz Pelztierfarm had an NZ , probably would have been rejected outright for breeding had it been OFA. Yet this Mutz was used because he improved hips ! and contributed much character and hardness .

that is a complex issue , which also needs some balance.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> sorry meant to provide an example of what Blitzkrieg is curious about
> Projays Femanus
> 
> father to daughter breeding .
> ...


Another interesting ped. I wish there was more info on the dam used as there is no hips or elbow rating. I also dont know Manus was he a dog worth going tight on? Ill assume the goale was to get Nick 3-2 but Im thinking you really have to be carful what dogs you use to bring that. In regards to HD Im assuming in any tight breeding you will have a higher then average cull rate. Thats the price you pay, so if you want to make good money off the pups probably not the best idea. I would think the goal of such a breeding would be to create breeding stock with a strong expression of the traits you want. Hopefully they would pass that on to their offspring better then an outcross.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"In regards to HD Im assuming in any tight breeding you will have a higher then average cull rate."

not necessarily -- depends on what you start with 

the tight breeding will intensify anything that you have , good or bad -Most breeds started out with this situation, to fix certain characteristics, more so the visual cosmetic type, rather than the behavioural. This includes the GSD when they wanted to fix the physical type of Horand with the erect ear carriage . Then when temperament suffered they would dive right back into the farm-herd dogs which may have had a wavy coat and drop ear , cosmetics not being important , temperament very important .
In the 1939 interview with Hirta von Stephanitz she said this was exactly the plan .
You can use it to problem solve . You can use it to reveal.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

http://windridgek9.com/


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

This page is about Bassett hounds, but I was trying to understand what they are describing, especially the spoken/written explanation. What does the "3, 3, to 2 represent? I see Brahms is used twice in the 3rd generation males side and once on the dams side in the second, but I'm confused on how they've expressed in "Kelly is line bred on Bahms 3.3/2


LET’S TALK LINEBREEDING


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> http://windridgek9.com/


 
Interesting pedigrees on some of the dogs especially the Pike son however I cannot take anything in that article seriously. Its clear she is trying to make excuses for not actually working or competing with her dogs in a serious venue that proves her stock. Just another pet breeder.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> "In regards to HD Im assuming in any tight breeding you will have a higher then average cull rate."
> 
> not necessarily -- depends on what you start with
> 
> ...


It seems like it is used successfully in other breeds to fix temperment traits which is what specifically interests me. Game dogs, hounds, mals etc.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not so easy in a utility breed - the simpler the purpose the easier it is .

the web link should have been http://windridgek9.com/ click on this link The Downside of Inbreeding: It's Time For A New Approach 

with articles by C A Sharp "_C.A. Sharp is editor of the "Double Helix Network News". This article appeared in Vol. IV, No. 3 (Summer 1998). It may be reprinted providing it is not altered and appropriate credit is given. _


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## coachcj (Jul 22, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> It seems like it is used successfully in other breeds to fix temperment traits which is what specifically interests me. Game dogs, hounds, mals etc.


No doubt about it, Blitzkrieg.More breeders from the breeds that you mentioned are more apt to line up on a great dog or a great cross to truly see what they're working with, good or bad". With that being said, one thing that hasn't been touched on is the role that economics or mentality of the breeders play as far as breeding styles of different breeds are concerned. When some breeders pay thousands of dollars to import those well-bred pups or brood females from overseas, heck, the first goal is trying to at least break even.I believe that culling is out of the question for some (not all, but definitely some). On the flip side anyone who's ever been around houndsmen understand that the mentality among them is "papers don't hunt" or "dogs can't read". 

I do understand , however, that there are lines of GSD with very strong temperaments , but also very high coincidences of HD. It may be a good thing;If the GSD breeders had the mentality of the Dutch or other breeds that you've mentioned, then those babies might have been thrown out with the bath water.


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