# Does neutering decrease the "intensity" of the dog?



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

So this is something of a takeoff of another thread, that I didn't want to muck up.

The other thread was about aggressiveness in the neutered vs non-neutered male.

What I would like to know... is if those who have raised and trained male dogs noticed a decrease in the intensity of the dog post-neuter.

What I mean by intensity. My 10 month old is an extremely focused, "intense" sort of dog. When we're working, he has only eyes for me, for his reward, for what we are doing. I suppose maybe this is actually called "drive" ? (Please correct me.) Whichever it is, it is very strong. 

It is hard to explain and I am pretty sure I'm not saying things just right. 

It's actually kind of hard to cope with sometimes. It's like his mind never stops working. 

If he were to be neutered, would that change? Would he be so driven, so focused? Obviously, no one can say for sure what may happen with a neuter, but just generally speaking, did anyone notice a difference in drive once a dog was neutered? Was this a detriment to you? I want to continue with Obedience and probably Agility next. I've basically decided to keep him intact for some time, but is this decision a positive for our future plans? Ie, keep him intact and let the testosterone rage, or neuter and let him mellow some?

I'm not altogether sure what I'm even asking, so I hope anyone reading can figure it out. Sorry, I'm tired. I guess, bottom line, I'd like to know if the "drive" or "intensity" of the dog was effected by neutering in your experiences. And whether that was a good thing or not.

Thanks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I know our boy is very un-driven, un-intense, and he's still intact at around 10-11 mos.

I think genetics and your training techniques would have more to do with it than neuter/non-neuter. 
Because you have been able to capture and keep his attention, I doubt that would change.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You should have put this in the SchH section! That's where people would really see a difference.  My GIRL didn't lose any of her intensity when she was spayed. She's still a nut.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I've only experience with one dog, but reading the accounts of others, and the experience with that dog, I'd say yes, in most cases, it likely does.

Samson's best friend, Jake, was neutered at 15 months. He was a pretty intense, drivey dog beforehand. Had lots of problems with him chasing cattle and it was almost IMPOSSIBLE to call him off. And that he wasn't listening - he just couldn't hear. The "chase" sucked up all of his focus. You could see him sort of exit a weird sort of haze when he finally realized you were calling him, and didn't understand why you were upset.

A few months after he was neutered, we noticed that it was much easier to call him off a chase, and he was less likely to instigate a chase on his own, or carry it out for as long. A few months later he wasn't chasing, period - and this is without doing any sort of training, P+, R+, or otherwise. The neuter pretty much killed his drive. It's still there, but you have to work a _lot_ harder to tease it out. I would say this is a detriment to training, though. Jake (the neutered dog) is much more difficult to train post-neuter. He remembers all the tricks he was taught while he was intact, but there was a long lull, and now it is much more difficult to get him focused long enough to really learn a trick.

Samson, on the other hand, is very intently focused on me during training sessions and picks things up every bit as quick as Jake used to, maybe quicker. He learns things even without being in a training context, he has a very sharp wit and is always learning from us. We are surprised some of the things he has learned to do. Very smart dog. Samson has low DRIVE but high INTENSITY. There is a definite difference so I think I know what you are talking about, and I think testosterone plays a major role in that sort of intensity you are talking about.

I'm not saying when Jake got his balls removed he got dumber, that's stupid, lol. But it took away some of the focus that was beneficial for training, I feel, and some of the drive that makes him pick up small queues so quickly. He's every bit as smart without his testicles, lol, just...and I know I'll probably get reamed for this, but, "lazier." I know it's a stereotype about neutering, but he honestly did turn into more of a lazy dog post-neuter. If you manage to tease his drive out, and get him going, he's every bit as easy to train as he used to be. Just have to work harder at it than you did before when he was intact.

Other intact males though may have a different sort of focus they use for training, where the testosterone, and the drive it affects, is only causing problems and I think, at least from a training perspective, they would benefit from being neutered (this is just from anecdotal accounts, mind you). I have read some people who say their dog was far more attentive toward them post-neuter in terms of training.

Sorry I can't really give you good advice on this one. If it is something you are considered I would ask your vet about a trial run of testosterone blockers for several months. That way if it affects his focus, you can discontinue and nothing permanent has been done. If you see things you like, the focus doesn't go away, other behavioral improvements, etc, you can go ahead and have him neutered and stop the drugs.

I don't ever recommend neutering for behavioral issues unless it is something of a sexually dimorphic behavior (and even then, training will make more of an impact) but there are benefits that come along with the surgery and removal of testosterone's influence. It would be silly for me to say that neutering would *not* help behavioral issues. It's impossible to tell with an individual dog, though, whether you are going to get benefits, detriments, nothing, or some mixture of those. You can only really make generalizations when looking at a large population. I think generally people are going to see more things they like than what they don't like though, following a neuter. Just how things are.

I wouldn't have him neutered as young as ten months, I think that can affect the normal development of a dog's psyche (I know you said you were waiting, and that is good). After he is an adult though I think that is a good time to evaluate any decision you are going to make.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

chelle said:


> So this is something of a takeoff of another thread, that I didn't want to muck up.
> 
> The other thread was about aggressiveness in the neutered vs non-neutered male.
> 
> ...


That's a good question. Over here you will not find a good male sheep dog who has been castrated. It is considered a big NO NO to castrate male dogs who you want to work sheep (talking kelpies, BC etc) All the really good sheep dog trainers here believe it makes them lazier, less focused and less willing to work the sheep all day......that it takes a lot of their drive away. I don't know how true this would be as there are just no good sheep dogs around here who are castrated to compare.....our female kelpie is speyed and we were advised not to if we wanted her to work sheep for the same reasons.....she is a pretty good sheep dog but not great.....now is that genetic (her parents are fabulous) or is it because we speyed her......I don't really know....but at least i know I won't have puppies!!!


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Didn't decrease Sigurd's intensity. I thought it would, neutered him at a year old. Same old intense dog. He's extremely focused, centered, intense. When he is focused on something, it's all that matters to him. Wish I never did it, regret it constantly! The Vet convinced me it would mellow out his intenseness, I believed it for some reason.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Doesn't change them at all--male or female I have both and training has gone forward the same before and after they were fixed.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Sigurd's Mom said:


> Didn't decrease Sigurd's intensity. I thought it would, neutered him at a year old. Same old intense dog. He's extremely focused, centered, intense. When he is focused on something, it's all that matters to him. Wish I never did it, regret it constantly! The Vet convinced me it would mellow out his intenseness, I believed it for some reason.


Why do you regret it?


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Most intense dog I have ever had is a neutered male pit bull. But he was neutered at 1 or 2 years he is a rescue. But this dog has drive like no other dog. He does not give up. He gets that intense look when the tennis ball is out. He is focused on the job at hand. Even now with his failing joints he still wants to do his job. The dog can hardly walk but his drive is still there. 

So no I don't think neutering effects the intensity. If anything it could make them more intense. This is just a idea, But with out the "balls" a male might be able to focus more. He is not so interested in all the others smells and trying to find a mate. The intacked males tend go be more head strong more into smelling everything in a way distorted by the need to find a female I don't know.


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## bomber72 (Mar 3, 2012)

hi my pup is 4 months old he stands 20 inches at front any idea roughly how tall he will be ?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I would be really interested to know what people involved with SchH, SAR, K-9 etc have to say in regards to how castration may effect drives in working dogs......I have always wondered about the whole "don't castrate a working dog" view and wonder if the same views are held in those circles as well??

bomber......might want to ask that question in the puppy growth forums.....you will probably get an answer quicker there.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am involved in SAR and prefer to keep my males intact but wouild not have an issue with neutering one once grown. My 8.5 year old is neutered to enlarged prostate. I have seen some changes in him but there is the overlay of being older and having some recent health problems.

Mainly the reasons I have is better chest and muscle development and a more compact dog. The dogs take a beating and having good muscle development holds all those joints together. Have not seen the agression issues due to being intact but then the dogs are screened properly and any deviant behavior is nipped in the bud. FWIW, right now there are 5 intact (if you still count Grim who was recently neutered as an old guy) male GSDs on the team. No issues. My own opinion is there are no real health benefits to nueter and I think, once grown, if not broken why fix it.

The male dogs are not allowed to mark or searches will turn into a pee-fest and have to be able to work in the presence of females in heat. Can be done. But I would be lying if I told you it was not distracting. They are not, however, allowed to frolic and play with each other. I think, that maybe, this may not be a good idea with the intact boys.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I really think neutering (after maturity) affect's a dog's ability to reproduce. Nothing more, nothing less. Take this with 5 grains of salt as its just based on my observations. Don't know what effects it has (if any) before maturity.

P.S. all you spelling nuts out there - like how I learned the difference between affect and effect? LOL I'm still not sure if I'm getting it right


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> P.S. all you spelling nuts out there - like how I learned the difference between affect and effect? LOL I'm still not sure if I'm getting it right


:rofl: Jane has me all messed up on it now!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I have noticed that, in males that are neutered after maturity, the intensity seems dialed down a bit and they are not quite as tightly wound. It seems most people who do SchH and other sport do not neuter because they want that extra intensity. However, I have talked to people who say neutering did not change their dog's attitude and intensity toward the work at all.

I have always waited to spay my females until after a year of age, and I did not notice a single iota less drive. None. Nada. Zip. In fact, I'd almost say that Luka got a bit MORE intense. I did notice that my females were a bit less fiesty with other dogs and more willing to be peaceful. I had one bitch that would attack my older dog when she was in heat, but after her spay it never occurred again.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think a lot of the reluctance in neutering working dogs (unless they are left intact for breeding) has to do with the repulsion (fear??) men tend to feel about removing the balls. 
And yes it's a fact of life. There was even a Frasier episode about it!


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

What does the repulsion men have with neutering have anything to do with neutering changing a dogs drive or intensity? Plus there are a ton of women in the Schutzhund sport so how would that line of thinking apply to them? 

I don't neuter my working/sport dogs because *I* feel that it does affect drive and intensity of the dog. I think that by taking the testosterone away, you do lose some of the things that are associated with it, good and bad. Also, I personally just don't see the benefits of neutering unless health related issues arise. My male does not mark, does not have any ill behaviors that are typically associated with being intact, so I see no reason to "fix" something that isn't broken!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think a lot of the reluctance in neutering working dogs (unless they are left intact for breeding) has to do with the repulsion (fear??) men tend to feel about removing the balls.
> And yes it's a fact of life. There was even a Frasier episode about it!


Well, I am a woman and have no particular attachment to my dogs testicles. I have had them intact and I have had them neutered. I think my intact dogs were healthier, certainly had better muscle and bone, and were more confident. I have not had enough dogs to generalize my observation to a larger population but just another small voice saying "this is what I have seen"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My SchH dogs are intact mainly because I see no reason to subject them to anesthesia and surgery (and the expense) for no good reason. I am 27yo female, FWIW.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Actually the decision to keep our male intact was mine, my husband was ok with having him neutered. But I was the one that did the in depth research & he supported my decision.


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## BlackJack (Jun 23, 2011)

I had Molly spayed last summer and regret it having it done. I don't miss the craziness and mess of her going into heat. But since she has been spayed she isn't quite as playful as she was and she will pee when she gets excited now. Personally I would trade dealing with her being heat, for the way she was before the surgery.

I will say its the last time I will alter one my dogs unless its a medical necessity.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Beast came to us from the rescue at 7 months and he had been neutered (when?? NO idea). If it decreased his intensity- well wow! I can't imagine what he would have been like even a notch more intense. Wow I miss my boy


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Well, I am a woman and have no particular attachment to my dogs testicles. I have had them intact and I have had them neutered. I think my intact dogs were healthier, certainly had better muscle and bone, and were more confident. I have not had enough dogs to generalize my observation to a larger population but just another small voice saying "this is what I have seen"


I meant handed down through the generations (the myth that they "need" the balls) I believe it used to be primarily men working the dogs years ago?
But on another note, I know a few pit bull owner/handlers whose dogs are neutered and extremely healthy/active/driven. 
I don't know as testicles have as much to do with it as people think.

You Can't Bring Me Down - Wallace the Pit Bull - YouTube

I don't think Maximus needed his testicles to do this!
weightpull - Pit Bull Pictures


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

I definitely didn't notice any changes with my two, they're both full of nutty driveyness when they feel like it. Thankfully my Pit Bull is better about chilling at home while my GSD/lab mix feels that he needs to be doing something and if you don't oblige he will bring you all items that were left on the ground and tell you about it.

And Dakota was neutered at 8 weeks of age. Which I do not recommend, I got him back in my ignorant days. My next dog will likely be a male and intact, if female I'd spay at around 2 years.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I have a family member who kept his dog intact because he couldn't deal with the loss of the dog's.. gonads. In that case, it was totally about the human, and not at all about the dog. This person didn't know a single pro vs con of neutering vs not. He just made some kind of weird correlation. So I know it happens with some people! Testicular sensitivity, I'll call it.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think a lot of the reluctance in neutering working dogs (unless they are left intact for breeding) has to do with the repulsion (fear??) men tend to feel about removing the balls.
> And yes it's a fact of life. There was even a Frasier episode about it!


Yes you're definitely on a limb there...

I'm a male and I have a bitch. I have no intent nor reason to spay her because IMO it is completely unnecessary. There's no balls involved here just common sense and an understanding of what I believe is best for my dog.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

chelle said:


> I have a family member who kept his dog intact because he couldn't deal with the loss of the dog's.. gonads. In that case, it was totally about the human, and not at all about the dog. This person didn't know a single pro vs con of neutering vs not. He just made some kind of weird correlation. So I know it happens with some people! Testicular sensitivity, I'll call it.


Mine is intact and I will go right ahead and just say it, there's a small part of that, that has to do with 'testicular sensitivity.' I think that is impossible for most if not all guys to get past. Facts of life.

But if it were truly the best thing for him, I would not let that stop me. He is intact because I think that is the healthiest thing for him and because there are no behaviors that are really consistent or problematic enough for me go ahead with it. He wouldn't be better off, and I'd probably only marginally be better off. 

Yes, there are some challenging butt-head behaviors that I believe are related to the presence of testosterone and he would probably be a more biddable dog without his gonads. But it hasn't yet crossed into the zone where I feel neutering him is necessary. If it becomes a stronger issue or he starts cropping the attitude all the time (occasionally, there will be a couple day stretch where he is just very trying - but it's rare, very few and far between - there are some medical reasons I suspect are related to it, but that's a very, very long story and will drag this topic ridiculously off track), then I'll be calling the vet to schedule a surgery. When it becomes that consistent not only am I unhappy but I believe the dog is unhappy as well. When everyone is living in harmony, then dog and human are happiest. I am sure that is quite possible for plenty of owners and dogs to achieve without surgery, but for some owners and dogs, the dog will need to be neutered.

And don't anybody get on my case for not attempting training with him first. I am constantly training him both in the traditional and nontraditional understanding of "dog training." Just how I act when I am around him is training. He is very perceptive and quick to pick things up.

But, yes, anyway, the testicular empathy is there and I cannot honestly say it does not affect things at all. It does. But it is not enough to shift my decision away if I felt it was _truly_ necessary for him.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh guys have admitted it to me (not just you Draug  ) so I know it exists. 

And pfitz, as long as you're fine with the specter of pyo, then all's good, I guess.

But seriously, didn't anyone see Frasier? It's the Episode called, quite appropriately, "The Unkindest Cut of All" :rofl:


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Oh guys have admitted it to me (not just you Draug  ) so I know it exists.
> 
> And pfitz, as long as you're fine with the specter of pyo, then all's good, I guess.
> 
> But seriously, didn't anyone see Frasier? It's the Episode called, quite appropriately, "The Unkindest Cut of All" :rofl:


If I sat around all day worrying about every possible disease my dog or even I could get, it would be a very sad existence


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes, some men probably do have an "issue" with it but just as many probably don't. I think there is a big difference between a "working dog" like a kelpie and the work he is expected to do everyday all day and a dog who is doing obedience, agility etc though.
I don't think you can compare the drive a dog has for a ball b4 and after castration to that of a "working dog" but that is JMO.
To my knowledge they do not castrate police dogs......if it makes them more biddable and focused then why don't they do it there......I doubt it has anything to do with anyone's complex over them losing their balls.
Who knows...


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

All my dogs are S/N. I have 3 GSD's.

I didn't really see any changes in attuide or drive in my female. She may be a little nicer now. She will puff up if I don't watch her.

My oldest male. He's probably a little less active now. I have to work very hard with the feeding and exercise to keep the weight down on all of them. They seem to gain very quickly if I don't. 

My youngest....I just neutered him, so I haven't seen anything yet.

I guess I can say, IMO, I think so far it's mostly been the weight that has changed about them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes loss of testosterone can change metabolism but so can age in general and activity level. 

None of my dogs are overweight and all are altered, but they would be fat if we did not measure out their food and didn't care how much they ate. 
I know you do care, so you work at keeping your dog trim, but if you did not, and just tossed a bunch of food in a bowl, the dog would probably be obese. 

Just like in humans, unless there's an illness involved, any time a body is expending less calories than it is taking in, you will see weight gain.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> I know you do care, so you work at keeping your dog trim, but if you did not, and just tossed a bunch of food in a bowl, the dog would probably be obese.


 Interesting point here. I never have to worry about my dog to overeat because he will not. He will eat exactly as much as he needs, and will walk away from kibble, raw food or treats if it's too much. He self-regulates his food intake based on daily activity. I wonder if it's because he's not neutered, because he's still young, he's not food-motivated, or because of his personality and genetics.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Oksana- that is interesting. I don't free feed cause I have multiple dogs but I am curious now as to my dogs would do, self regulate, eat it all etc.?


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Interesting point here. I never have to worry about my dog to overeat because he will not. He will eat exactly as much as he needs, and will walk away from kibble, raw food or treats if it's too much. He self-regulates his food intake based on daily activity. I wonder if it's because he's not neutered, because he's still young, he's not food-motivated, or because of his personality and genetics.


My girl is like that too. She only eats what she needs. Also since I started tracking with her, I cut her food back to 1/2 , feeding only in the morning after tracking. What she does now is only eat 1/2 of her 1/2 portion and leaves the rest in the bowl and won't touch it until what was her normal evening feeding time, at which point she finishes it off.

Going back to OT, my brother works and breeds English Springer Spaniels back at home. He has a few champion dogs and his best (hunting) performing dogs have always been females. None of his dogs are ever neutered, though I haven't ever asked him why not, I'm pretty sure no/very few Springer owners (back home in Ireland) who work their dogs have neutered them.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Oksana- that is interesting. I don't free feed cause I have multiple dogs but I am curious now as to my dogs would do, self regulate, eat it all etc.?


I can't say what Koshka would do, as he is pretty food motivated but prefers to eat with me near. However, I can pretty much guarantee that Krissie would eat herself into morbid obesity very quickly if I attempted to free feed. Most of the dogs I've had in the past would not self regulate well either.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSD07 said:


> Interesting point here. I never have to worry about my dog to overeat because he will not. He will eat exactly as much as he needs, and will walk away from kibble, raw food or treats if it's too much. He self-regulates his food intake based on daily activity. I wonder if it's because he's not neutered, because he's still young, he's not food-motivated, or because of his personality and genetics.


You forgot one of the main reasons a single dog won't overeat. No competition!
Unless you have multiple dogs?

One of our great "tricks" to get a finicky dog to eat is to set up another bowl with a (nice/non aggressive) dog next to it. Nothing like a little competition to get that appetite back


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> Why do you regret it?


No point to have him altered. He isn't around unaltered females. It was just all around an unnecessary move on my part.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> Interesting point here. I never have to worry about my dog to overeat because he will not. He will eat exactly as much as he needs, and will walk away from kibble, raw food or treats if it's too much. He self-regulates his food intake based on daily activity. I wonder if it's because he's not neutered, because he's still young, he's not food-motivated, or because of his personality and genetics.


Good question. Some dogs will self-regulate, but every dog I have ever owned would eat until they simply cannot eat any more. Wolves can consume 20% of their body weight in a single meal when they make a big kill, and I don't doubt my own dogs would do the same if they could. I used to have a dog who would escape the yard about once or twice a year and go dumpster-diving. She'd come back with her belly so full that she looked pregnant and due! Then she'd inevitably throw up so that I could see everything she ate. It was phenomenal--one time she pooped out a big wad of toothpicks after a dumpster run. Thank God they did not do any damage.


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

My experience has been interesting. Going back 3 GSD's ago, we had him neutered, just because that was the "right thing" to do. We were not going to breed him and he was of pet quality. He definitely had some of the side effects, weigh control and less active. The second was intact his whole life and there was only one reason we were going to neuter him later in life, which was marking, but the Vet and we agreed that it was more behavioral. I also was doing Schutzhund, so I did not want to risk the loss of testosterone, which given his slightly weak nerves could have affected his bitework even more, again I said could have. 

Currently, my new pup will not be neutered, unless there is a medical or overwhelming difficult behavorial problem, that can be resolved with neutering. I am back into Schutzhund training and I am under the general belief that having that nasty male hormone circulating, gives an edge when it comes to a dog's confidence, when you get into the higher levels of defensive drives and associated training. Of coarse there are exceptions, but it's pretty clear in humans what physical and mental effects there are from different levels of Testosterone.

The only conclusion that is absolute in my mind is that if you are going to neuter wait until the dog is at least 2 years old but 3 would be even better. They need those hormones to fully develop, physically and mentally.


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