# Drives in protection training



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Topic that came up on the sleeve carrying thread and I would like to continue it here to hopefully get more information.

It was stated that there are behaviors that you can observe to determine what drive the dog is working in. I know that each dog is going to behave differently, but would love to hear some examples.

Example:
A high pitched fast bark indicates prey drive.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I was told that Stark works a lot in defense drive when working on protection.

Big deep booming barks, tail up and wagging slightly, eyes on the helpers eyes/not the sleeve when it is on, if it's on the ground or on the shelf, then he will bark at it though, he lunges forward about 90% of the time, not backing away from the TD. He has a bit of a choppy bite lately so we are working on increasing his prey drive/possession by doing a lot of carrying the sleeve, flirt pole, tug, etc.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a defense type dog as well, barking has always been "normal" and not the high pitched prey stuff. Never barks at the sleeve. If the sleeve is on the ground and the helper is in his space, he's lunging at the helper, sleeve or no sleeve. Also he works better in close but the escapes are getting better.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lies, have you ever been told to work on bringing out more prey drive?

I was told a few weeks ago that although Stark has excellent prey drive, in protection it doesn't come out as much and that if he continues to work in defense (and I am not careful/in control) it could be bad (dangerous).

What are your thoughts on trying things to promote more prey into protection. To me I thought it sounded silly, because isn't protection work suppose to be about defense?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Elisabeth, I think it's not so much promoting or not promoting prey drive but getting the dog to switch back and forth between the two. A very balanced dog will be able go back and forth between defense and prey depending on what the helper is doing. A more defensive dog will default to defense unless the helper makes a concerted effort to put him in prey (and even then the dog may not switch). A more prey-ish dog will default to prey unless the helper can get into his head and challenges him.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Jason. Makes sense. 

Besides bark, what other signs can you see that help a newbie like me know when he is using a defensive approach or a prey driven approach? And, when would each be appropriate?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Lies, have you ever been told to work on bringing out more prey drive?


I haven't been told to, but I don't really do anything at home that carries over into protection. Prey drive in obedience is totally different, the dog will chase, tackle, kill, shake, rinse repeat until he keels over from a heart attack if I'd let him. Helper does things to work on certain aspects, like last weekend we did something a little different with the long bites. The nice thing is that it doesn't take a lot to activate the dog. I notice some dogs that are more defensive also require more from the helper to activate. He will run the blinds and engage, doesn't need to get all whipped up by the helper before starting a round. Personally I kinda prefer defense over prey assuming no dog of mine is ever going to be completely and ideally "balance" as far as the "perfect" GSD.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Thanks Jason. Makes sense.
> 
> Besides bark, what other signs can you see that help a newbie like me know when he is using a defensive approach or a prey driven approach? And, when would each be appropriate?


Oh, I don't know ... you have ask someone like Anne for that lol! Half the time I think I am putting the dogs in defense and they just look at me like I am some schmuck with a sleeve and a whip ...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I notice some dogs that are more defensive also require more from the helper to activate.


Lies, I would think a more defensive dog will require less from a helper to activate.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Jason L said:


> Elisabeth, I think it's not so much promoting or not promoting prey drive but getting the dog to switch back and forth between the two. A very balanced dog will be able go back and forth between defense and prey depending on what the helper is doing. A more defensive dog will default to defense unless the helper makes a concerted effort to put him in prey (and even then the dog may not switch). A more prey-ish dog will default to prey unless the helper can get into his head and challenges him.


Also, a dog who is unable to switch to prey may ultimately begin to feel more and more pressured in bitework. After all, where is the release of pressure, what is the reward, and how do they win if they are always in defense and the guy ALWAYS comes back the next session?

Add in a new field and new decoys, and a 2nd decoy for the back half, additional pressure from the handler as you work toward that Sch3 and maybe more points, and the confrontation for the dog becomes a bigger and bigger deal. If they have the ability to switch into prey that will bring in more fun for the dog, more of a release of pressure after a moment defense/fight, and a reason to want to keep coming back.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Thanks Jason. Makes sense.
> 
> Besides bark, what other signs can you see that help a newbie like me know when he is using a defensive approach or a prey driven approach? And, when would each be appropriate?


Watch body language, tail carriage, ears, lips, corner of the mouth, tension in the body. Sometime hackles, as well, although that can be indicative of overall excitement rather than defensiveness.

When would each be appropriate? Watch the helper and his positioning and where his eyes are and what he's moving or not moving.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jason L said:


> Lies, I would think a more defensive dog will require less from a helper to activate.


Maybe activate is not the right word, but, if the dog doesn't have a lot of prey drive, the helper has to initiate this confrontation to get a response from the dog (or a response worth working with). Or, like long bites or escape bites for example, wouldn't the really defensive dog not look as good because for one the helper is already running AWAY and for the other, there is a greater distance so the helper is not in the dog's "space"?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh. I was thinking of activate as in Voran or Pass Auf. We have a high defense young dog at the club right now and with him all you have to do as a helper is show yourself and he immediately goes into aggression. He interprets the MERE presence of the helper as threat. 

Yes, I agree with you on the escape. If the dog is really stuck on defense (or is worked too high in defense) and the helper runs away, the dog might think "Alright then. Job well done!"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Makes sense, I guess I mean at the more extreme ends of the spectrum. It probably also depends on the dog's trigger and how complacent he feels. I'm thinking along the lines of extreme prey dogs who just go wild at the mere sight of a sleeve. Doesn't take much to get them going, but maybe for the wrong reasons...


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

It is my understanding that the dog needs to use a balance of all three drives. Please correct me if I am wrong.

*Prey drive* is necessary to bite and hold. Prey isn't just about the chasing of the prey but also about the BITING and holding of the prey. That is what gives you a nice firm full bite. A dog holding prey isn't going to let go. 

*Defense drive* is necessary to take the work seriously and to "respect" the threat of the helper enough to not be dirty.

*Fight drive* or aggression is necessary to really engage with the helper instead of just the sleeve. Maybe sustainability too?

The purpose for the post is to get examples of what each looks like in practice.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I agree that a dog needs to be balanced in all three drives, but I would think that not many are... ? 

I have a question, sorry for my ignorance, again but I am trying to understand..

Now, take Stark for example (I have seen others do this too) he is said to be working in defense while on the field and yet he will bark at the sleeve if it is left somewhere, but he will also bark at our TD when he sees him on the field. He won't bark at him if he is sitting at the bench or just walking around with someone or sitting chatting... So, obviously he doesn't see him as a threat, right?

I also have a question, hopefully Lynn pops in here because I would love to hear her take on what she thinks Lao's works like... I would consider him a dog who works out of defense and not so much prey? Where her dog Dante is more of a balanced dog in all three drives? I am just using her dogs as an example because she had recently posted both her boys working and they are fresh in my mind.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I would suspect that few are completely balanced, but I would guess that is where training comes in. You teach the dog to access the drives that they dont use naturally.

We do the same thing with people training in business. Some are natural organizers, some innovators, some researchers... those who dont do that naturally are taught strategies for doing those things in a cognitive way. Practice.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

delete duplicate post


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## ilivenanigloo (Jul 6, 2006)

My dog had a little bit of bite work when she was really little (before I got her at 6 months). She's never had formal training. There have been a few times when a stranger (meter reader, friends she hadn't met, etc) walked through the gate and she ran up, sat square in front of the person and started a fast rhythmic bark. As the person stepped forward, she moved with him/her while remaining seated. It was beautiful. I'm guessing that would be defensive. 

I hope that helps.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Jason L said:


> Oh, I don't know ... you have ask someone like Anne for that lol! Half the time I think I am putting the dogs in defense and they just look at me like I am some schmuck with a sleeve and a whip ...


I have that T-Shirt too!!! Feel like I am in good company....want to go to Anne's house with onyx'girl and I for some training? We'll swing by Texas and pick you up! 
ROAD TRIP!!!!!!!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Stop in Missouri too! I was just waiting for the contingent to set out. Should we rent a panel van?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Samba said:


> Stop in Missouri too! I was just waiting for the contingent to set out. Should we rent a panel van?


A stop in Missouri is no problem. I would suggest one of those short yellow buses with big signs on the side that say "Saugus or Bust". I think I could even dig-out my old helmet....it has been years since I've rode in the back and licked the windows! :wild:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

:spittingcoffee:
Thanks for that image Wayne, I just blew my wine thru my nose!!! :rofl:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Road trip!!!!!!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Could you just imagine scene....this rag-a-muffin foursom, dusty from the road, me in my helmet, torn-up "Saugus or Bust" signs on the side of a dirty short yellow bus....except one window that has oddly been licked clean....and Anne meetin' us at the front door with a bad attitude, a couple of civil dogs, and a shotgun???? Like going cross country to Wally World!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well our gorgeous dogs tagging along would make up for the likes of us! 
I think Anne would have a pooperscooper in hand instead of the shotgun and point us towards the kennels.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I notice you didn't suggest she wouldn't have a bad attitude! Here's the thing, I don't think we can let her know we're coming....she'll suddenly go on vacation, or like my folks, she'll just move.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Wayne, you would never get past the security gates.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Wayne, you would never get past the security gates.


Please! White-trash from the South-side of Detroit here, are you kidding me? Security gates keep-out punks. Its the dogs I worry about...not sure a sleeve is good enough??


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

W.Oliver said:


> Its the dogs I worry about...not sure a sleeve is good enough??


:rofl: No. A sleeve is NOT enough.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> A stop in Missouri is no problem. I would suggest one of those short yellow buses with big signs on the side that say "Saugus or Bust". I think I could even dig-out my old helmet....it has been years since I've rode in the back and licked the windows! :wild:





Samba said:


> Road trip!!!!!!





onyx'girl said:


> Wayne, I just blew my wine thru my nose!!!


I just want to say: I am not with those people. I don't know how they got in my van.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Jason L said:


> I just want to say: I am not with those people. I don't know how they got in my van.


Shut-up and drive! :dogsledding:

It occurs it me, we'll be needing four pairs of Blues Brothers sunglasses!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Does anyone still want to talk about drive indicators or do I just have to get in the van?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Get in the van!! We can talk along the way....


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> It is my understanding that the dog needs to use a balance of all three drives. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> *Prey drive* is necessary to bite and hold. Prey isn't just about the chasing of the prey but also about the BITING and holding of the prey. That is what gives you a nice firm full bite. A dog holding prey isn't going to let go.
> 
> ...


Ok, a serious question: what is fight drive? And is this a drive separate of prey drive and defense drive or is it a possible expression of prey drive or defense drive?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

In a tiny nutshell.....

Defense drive = Reactive aggression
Dog responds to the perception of a threat. Ultimate goal is to make the threat go away. Mainly rooted in self preservation, though at times also related to the preservation of vital resources (territory, game, pack, offspring, etc...) In it's most basic form, the fight side of the fight/flight response. A weaker place for a dog to be fighting from, due to the stress involved and because there is always that flip side flight component not too far away (though depending on individual temperament, much farther away in some dogs than others) that remains as an option if the initial fight choice doesn't go so well.

Fight drive = Active aggression
Dog responds to the perception of an opponent/challenger. Ultimate goal is to prove superiority by dominating and defeating the opponent. Mainly rooted in social aggression/dominance and the desire to prove one's worth by being the biggest bad*** out there. A stronger place for the dog to fight from because it doesn't carry the same stress factor as defense because while the dog may (or may not) recognize and appreciate that the opponent is dangerous, unlike with defense he is not reacting because he feels a direct threat that he must defend against and doesn't have the flip side of flight (avoidance). His goal is to dominate, not just chase off. It's more optional for the dog, not self preservation, and he fights because he more or less likes to, and will willingly take on certain personal risks to prove himself as he's confident he'll win.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Chris, do you agree with Raiser then that there is a connection between a strong fight drive and a strong prey drive? Can a high defense dog have a strong fight drive?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Jason L said:


> Chris, do you agree with Raiser then that there is a connection between a strong fight drive and a strong prey drive?


In some dogs, but not all. So while I would say they are often found together in a dog, I don't think there is necessarily a causal connection. Most high fight dogs I've seen were also high prey, but not all. And I've seen plenty of dogs who while they exhibited strong prey in other areas (chasing balls, chasing squirrels, playing with their owner) they did not exhibit much prey in protection, or take to viewing the helper as a prey object no matter how hard the helper tried. But if the helper presented a challenge to the dog, the fight drive came out in spades. 

Actually had a perfect example of this in an 18mo Czech/WGR female visiting our club for her first ever SchH evaluation a few weeks ago. Plenty of prey with the handler or playing tug with other people in a social manner, but no interest in interacting with a helper in that manner. Very high threshold for defense and absolutely no response to suspicion work. But as soon as the helper just puffed up, squared off and presented the picture of a challenging opponent to the dog, the dog came alive with serious barking, huge, deep, hard bites, tons of fight and an "I'm going to kick your butt!!!" attitude.



Jason L said:


> Can a high defense dog have a strong fight drive?


Yes, though I've not seen this as much. I think mainly because with dogs that are high defense are also lower threshold for it and it tends to be a more overwhelming drive that is easy to trigger, and being so ends up being the primary drive the dog functions in. Though I've known many dogs where, if the underlying genetics for fight drive were there but not yet expressed, were developed into fight through defense. As they confronted threats and won, their confidence was built and they got rather full of themselves and came to enjoy the physical confrontation, and while always a bit quicker to trigger in defense (especially in new environments) the end result was a dog who worked primarily in fight drive once mature and well developed in training.

The other factor to take into consideration is how much leeway the dog has between when defense is triggered and when the dog switches gears into avoidance. Some dogs have quite a bit of working room there, some almost nill and once defense comes avoidance isn't far behind. This is what makes defense work very tricky with some dogs, but certainly in others it can be used to help bring out fight if the fight is there in the first place.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I used to train with a dog with tremendous fight drive. He was not a defensive dog nor high in prey. His goal was to beat the living daylights out of his opponent and he was very good at it. I have seen very few dogs like him, but he showed me that fight drive is a separate drive.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I used to train with a dog with tremendous fight drive. He was not a defensive dog nor high in prey. His goal was to beat the living daylights out of his opponent and he was very good at it. I have seen very few dogs like him, but he showed me that fight drive is a separate drive.


Can you explain what that looked like?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Along the same line of question: what's a sign that a pup or a young dog has a nice fight drive in him? That he likes to tug (as opposed to chasing a ball)?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Jason L said:


> Chris, do you agree with Raiser then that there is a connection between a strong fight drive and a strong prey drive? Can a high defense dog have a strong fight drive?


I agree with Raiser 100%. Drives are not separate entities that you can add and subtract like ingredients of a recipie. They are connected and entangled. I think of it like a lava lamp that is constantly shifting, moving and mingling. 

Let me explain using the drives in your question. When a dog is chasing a rabbit he is in prey drive. Right? But the dog also knows that the rabbit can fight back and can hurt him. So all during the chasing phase there is also an element of defense and fight. When the dog catches the rabbit he then has to use a higher degree of defense/fight to capture the rabbit but he still has to stay in a bit of prey in case the rabbit gets away.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Is this the rabbit from Monty Python's Search for the Holy Grail?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

:rofl:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It could be this tough bunny!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't know why I doubted what Fast was saying but I am now a believer....and to think, there are about 50 of those vicious creatures out on my training field nightly. Frightening.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

Vandal said:


> I don't know why I doubted what Fast was saying but I am now a believer....and to think, there are about 50 of those vicious creatures out on my training field nightly. Frightening.



We have whippets. No more rabbits.  Want to borrow whippets?

And thanks for the laugh, Anne, that's one of my favorite laughing movies.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Whippets? And mess with a good snake eradication program?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am thinking we will need something like Lisa described above. I don't want whippet bones all over the field. Hard enough to train around the gopher holes.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Ruthie said:


> Can you explain what that looked like?


No, not really. He was a dog you had to see.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> I agree with Raiser 100%. Drives are not separate entities that you can add and subtract like ingredients of a recipie. They are connected and entangled. I think of it like a lava lamp that is constantly shifting, moving and mingling.


I am not sure what you mean by "drives are not separate entities". I thought that the drive labels were just a way to describe different aspects of a dog's behavior. There would always be a combination of drives working at all times.

I am also not sure how you could "add or subtract" something that a dog is born with. I thought it was just that you trained the dog to access or use the drives that he was born with. Some having a higher level of any given drive or set of behaviors than another.

Did I not understand you?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

lhczth said:


> No, not really. He was a dog you had to see.


I guess what I am getting at is what did he DO that makes you say he was a fighter. Is it posture? The way he barked? Strength? 

I know people have said in the past that is just the "attitude", but how do you know what attitude they have.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I was going to question the "rabbit - defense" connection but then I saw Samba's anthology of youtube videos of killer rabbits ...


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> There would always be a combination of drives working at all times.


That's pretty much what I'm saying.

Don't worry about the rest. It's not something that most people want to hear.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> I guess what I am getting at is what did he DO that makes you say he was a fighter. Is it posture? The way he barked? Strength?
> 
> I know people have said in the past that is just the "attitude", but how do you know what attitude they have.


As a total newbie, that is what I am wondering too!

I hear people talking about these thing when watching dogs or on here, but WHAT DOES IT LOOK/SOUND LIKE? How would *I* know the difference and how do you pick up on subtle hints of each?


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2000)

When I think in terms of a dog that likes to fight, without being overly prey or defense driven, I get the image of a dog that stays focussed and intense on the helper if no sleeve is present and is not going to bite/grip the helper.

I know this sounds like a real civil dog that I described, but I actually have a dog in "Hex" who simply understands the game so to speak. He's not civil or super defensive in that he can be touched, petted, calmed, etc during protection work by the helper if need be. This comes into play for me at the blind as "Hex" wanted to simply come into the blind and grip the helper all the time. Always the sleeve as well. The traditional methods of correcting this problem wasn't working so good, and I simply started calming "Hex" myself, then started asking club members to do the same until one day we did it with the helper and bingo it worked.

Now in my opinion "Hex" is a bit more on the prey side of things, but he has huge crushing grips that I believe comes from a combination of genetics, and working defense as well.

My problem is that I really believe he is a smart dog, and he figures out other things as well. Some good, some bad. While this is fun from a training standpoint it's not so much fun as far as getting nice scores all the time.

Al Govednik


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

In the blind these dogs are saying, "move, make my day!". They are pushy, the barking strong, but also clean. When on the bite their job is to beat and over power their opponent and they put everything they have into achieving that goal. They bite the sleeve because that is what they have been taught to do, but will bite a suit or an unprotected person the same way. They aren't in this to win a sleeve or win their prey. They are there to make that opponent submit. Not sure how else to describe it, but once you have seen a dog like this you don't ever forget them. Think of them sort of like the people who do the ultimate fighting. I saw this dog take down a number of helpers. Not on the long bite, but on the escape. He would power through the helper, throw his body towards the front and down would go that helper. Even very experienced and strong helpers were exhausted after working him. He was not a flashy dog. No high speed flying long bites. Excellent secondary OB. He was also very clear headed off the field.

This wasn't the only dog like this either. He is just the one that left the largest impression on me.

For those that are curious; he was a combination of what I would call DDR working lines (different from what is most often seen) and WGWL.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Thank you, Al and Lisa, these are exactly the type examples that I am looking for. Fast, I am not "worried" about the drives. It is more that if I dont understand what is happening with my dog, I will never be able to make the right decisions when handling. I am not one of those people that can just learn by doing, I have to know the WHY behind it.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Bullet said:


> Now in my opinion "Hex" is a bit more on the prey side of things, but he has huge crushing grips that I believe comes from a combination of genetics, and working defense as well.


The posts from several more experienced folks really offer dimension to the concepts, but having had the opportunity to be on the business side of Hex, especially in contrast to my killer show dog, crystalizes the points for me.



elisabeth_00117 said:


> As a total newbie, that is what I am wondering too!.....How would *I* know the difference and how do you pick up on subtle hints of each?


 You're in the same boat as the rest of us...so don't worry, you're not alone! As newbies, I am of the view that our first step is understanding what we're looking for, so we have a better likelihood of knowing it when we see it. As for when we see it, it is simply a function of time & experience.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> I am of the view that our first step is understanding what we're looking for, so we have a better likelihood of knowing it when we see it. As for when we see it, it is simply a function of time & experience.


Well said!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

At training I always try to stand somewhere where I can see both the helper and the dog - this way you can see what the helper is doing to the dog and how the dog is responding to the helper. And if you see something interesting, unexpected, or something you don't quite understand, ask your TD or helper afterwards.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've started training recently with the helper that Karlo started on. 
He has had me come out on the field with him so I can see the difference in the drives.
It really helps when you aren't handling your own, so you can focus on the whole picture.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Onyx'girl, that really captures a big part of why I became a Helper. Although I am not going to be taking any awards as a Helper, I can safely contribute to training at my club, while at the same time, for me personally, I work at it as a basis to become a better trainer.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne said this many times in other posts: the handler should thrive to know as much as possible about what's going on during protection training. Don't go out there and just have the TD or the helper tell you to "stand there" or "be a post" or "hold the line like this". If possible, have a chat with the TD and helper before you bring your dog out (once the dog is out it's too hard to have an intelligent conversation lol) and find out what they want to do, how they want to do it and if the situation calls for it, why they want to do something.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Regarding dogs with fight drive like what Lisa referred to.
First, if you are the helper, it won't be a case of having to know what it looks like so you can recognize it when it happens. Quite the contrary actually. There are only so many dogs you work as the helper that you will always remember. Every dog that I have that memory of was the kind being discussed here. There have never been lots of these dogs but I do think there are less now. I think one thing to note is that these dogs don't have to bite to prove they have that fight drive. You can see it in their eyes and their powerful demeanor. THEY have presence and are not simply responding to the helper's. Being someone who has never had a fear of dogs, when you meet a dog who intimidates you,( even when you have all that equipment on), you have a tendency to remember it. I don't mean intimidated because you think the dog might bite you elsewhere either. I am talking about thinking twice before you even offer the sleeve. These dogs seem to know they can control you with simply a "watchful" stare and when sent to the bad guy, they knew how to use their bark to accomplish the same thing.

You might hear old timers talking about dogs who could stop you in your tracks just by looking at you. That was a very "Lierberg" type of dog who could do that. Also, the dogs I have worked or owned that had this fight drive also had a high degree of social aggression. Meaning, they were very attached to their owners and very protective. Not only on the field but off as well. They also had that ability to escalate which I will talk about in a minute. The dogs I had/have with these characteristics were not exactly dogs for just anyone and I think that is why they are dwindling in numbers. SchH people in the US have always claimed they were hard to train and get high points with. I have trained/titled several and I found that to be completely a wrong assessment. What is difficult to train, ( for me anyway), are dogs who don't possess these traits. The dog should have them if you are doing protection. These types of dogs, ( the ones I experienced anyway), were quite vigilant about protecting me, the property etc. When my friends would come visit, they would pretty much beg me to put the dogs away before they got here. Why? Not because the dogs would bite them but because they made it clear to visitors that they were thinking about it. lol. They would literally stalk my guests until their nerves wore out, ( the guests I mean, not the dogs). If someone would get up or move to another room, my dog would be right behind them watching their every move. It was intimidating but they never bit them, just kind of controlled them by watching. It was really funny, (to me anyway), my friends were not amused. hehehe.

As for what I said about escalating. If you think about the SchH protection routine, it demands that the dogs escalate and then de-escalate, (based on the helper's behavior), throughout the routine. The dogs I had with these protective instincts would not bite, ( I am talking real life biting), unless they were provoked to that degree. If someone was neutral they would meet that with their own level of neutrality but were never inattentive. If someone got more aggressive, they would meet that higher aggression with barking and when attacked, they would meet that with a bite. It was NATURAL in the dog to behave that way, you didn't have to train it. That was what SchH was designed to do. Display a dog's natural protection drives and that is why dogs like this were rather easy to train. The people who understood these dogs didn't try to train behaviors into them, they simply channeled what they brought naturally. That to me is where we have gone really wrong and why you now see so many dogs who will not protect. People are training dogs to LOOK like they are protective and trying to teach behaviors to the dogs that mimic those things. 
I see many dogs I would call good dogs but not many great ones and the ones I just talked about, IMO, were the great ones in that it all came natural. People who herd sheep talk quite a bit about this aspect of their dogs as well. They are not training the dogs to herd , they are simply channeling what the dog brings naturally.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Wow, Anne, great explanation. You painted a very clear picture. I have observed some of the behaviors that you described. Just for sake of labeling (for understanding), would you say that those dogs were high fight drive, low-med prey drive, medium defense?

Is the reason that maybe people started choosing to breed dogs that had a high prey drive was because the biting component isn’t really part of the fight drive and they had difficulty presenting enough of a threat to get the dogs engaged? Then as time goes on, people don’t understand what they are looking at or how to read the dogs so they rely on what is easier to do and select dogs for breeding that are easier to train to “perform” hence less dogs who have the serious working components.



Jason L said:


> Anne said this many times in other posts: the handler should thrive to know as much as possible about what's going on during protection training. Don't go out there and just have the TD or the helper tell you to "stand there" or "be a post" or "hold the line like this". If possible, have a chat with the TD and helper before you bring your dog out (once the dog is out it's too hard to have an intelligent conversation lol) and find out what they want to do, how they want to do it and if the situation calls for it, why they want to do something.


I agree, Jason. Those things are important. Our helper and TD are very good about explaining things. I post questions like this for several reasons 


It is just fun to talk about dog stuff
I already bug poor Chris to death with questions (Both at training and via e-mail during the week) and want to give her a break
There are only so many dogs in our club, and some are from the same blood lines. I don't think it is good to form my opinions and knowledge base solely on what I see there. It is good to get outside perspective from time to time.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think they had all the needed drives with that added component of social aggression. 
I don't recall having a hard time getting the dogs going but I have worked dogs who absolutely needed a reason to do protection, or maybe what I mean is, they needed the right trigger to view what was going on as protection. Once someone made that clear, it was easy. They certainly would not light up on a helper with the attitude of a child. 
Samba talked about helpers trying to make one of her dogs interested in the equipment to try to take the edge off the way her dog wanted to work. With her dog and with the dogs I am talking about, there was just no way to make them view protection as a game or a place to play. It could not be done. That seems to be a problem for most SchH people nowadays. They think there is something wrong with a dog like that when the problem is, the training. The easy answer is, " the dog is not cut out for SchH" but the irony of it is, some of these dogs are perfectly suited for SCHUTZHUND ( PROTECTION DOG), they just aren't suited to play tug with strangers.

I listed a few reasons why I think the socially aggressive dogs are becoming more rare, especially in SchH. I have also talked , ( probably too much), about what I think has happened over the years. I think people have changed, society has changed, SchH has and so on. We have people calling SchH a "Grip Sport" and saying the dogs are not and should not be protection dogs. The mentality has changed . Doesn't matter much now, I am just glad I have managed to maintain and bring back more of that social aggression in my dogs. I like those kinds of dogs and I have always preferred them. To me, a German Shepherd who will not protect, is not a German Shepherd. They can still be a Schutzhund dog though .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I listed a few reasons why I think the socially aggressive dogs are becoming more rare, especially in SchH. I have also talked , ( probably too much), about what I think has happened over the years..


 I wish you would talk on and on. Love your perspective and intellect! Thank you for sharing your knowledge :thumbup:


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Vandal said:


> .......a German Shepherd who will not protect, is not a German Shepherd......


Amen!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I wish you would talk on and on. Love your perspective and intellect! Thank you for sharing your knowledge :thumbup:


What a suck-up, you're just attempting to get an invite to Saugus to train on your own! You know you're not going without the three of us!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I need you all to help me clean the kennels...I'd be afraid to go by myself, need the posse for back-up!!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

With dogs working mainly in Defense drive, not the fight drive of those once-in-a-lifetime dogs, but the average club dog. Is there a risk than once in trial, with neutral and strange helpers, the dog will not know what is supposed to do? I know it is a problem with prey drive trained dogs, I've seen in some that do the work, routine is no problem, but you can tell that they are playing, and I've seen others in which the game is so different to what they know that the tail and bark tells me they are quite confused, even if the routine is, again, right.

How does affect the difference of training v/s trial to dogs trained in defense, v/s dogs trained in drive v/s those with real fight into them?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I think they had all the needed drives with that added component of social aggression.
> I don't recall having a hard time getting the dogs going but I have worked dogs who absolutely needed a reason to do protection, or maybe what I mean is, they needed the right trigger to view what was going on as protection. Once someone made that clear, it was easy. They certainly would not light up on a helper with the attitude of a child.
> Samba talked about helpers trying to make one of her dogs interested in the equipment to try to take the edge off the way her dog wanted to work. With her dog and with the dogs I am talking about, there was just no way to make them view protection as a game or a place to play. It could not be done. That seems to be a problem for most SchH people nowadays. They think there is something wrong with a dog like that when the problem is, the training. The easy answer is, " the dog is not cut out for SchH" but the irony of it is, some of these dogs are perfectly suited for SCHUTZHUND ( PROTECTION DOG), they just aren't suited to play tug with strangers.
> 
> I listed a few reasons why I think the socially aggressive dogs are becoming more rare, especially in SchH. I have also talked , ( probably too much), about what I think has happened over the years. I think people have changed, society has changed, SchH has and so on. We have people calling SchH a "Grip Sport" and saying the dogs are not and should not be protection dogs. The mentality has changed . Doesn't matter much now, I am just glad I have managed to maintain and bring back more of that social aggression in my dogs. I like those kinds of dogs and I have always preferred them. To me, a German Shepherd who will not protect, is not a German Shepherd. They can still be a Schutzhund dog though .


Bummer. I was trying to play back in my own words to see if I understood. Guess not.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, just avoided saying it again because I have said what you did before, if maybe a little differently.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, just avoided saying it again because I have said what you did before, if maybe a little differently.


Oh...good then.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I like the reference of Sch today to grip sport. I think this is very accurate. I also think that many of the elite working dogs in sport derive from this equation. One of the differences in times past and today and I think a correlation to the less amount of these type of dogs is the lack of use of muzzle training in protection work. If you want to clearly see a dominant, tough dog, with "fight drive" it is readily apparent in muzzle work. In this equation you are taking the main weapon(weapon of fight before somebody goes semantic on me and say avoidance is main weapon) of the dog away(and therefore the grips) and asking him/her to go into battle against the opposition. Look at the video of Nate Harves's dog Stuka doing muzzle work with Jim Laney. I have worked with this dog in person with Nate and Mike and this dog has real fight drive. Was a beautiful thing. Very good Sch dog but not a point dog for national podium. But my point is you can see in the muzzle work the strength of the dog in his approach to handling the decoy. This type of training used to be routine back in the day and you could readily see who could channel the prey into fight. Many prey monsters today would be very surprising in their muzzle work. I think it is a valuable piece of training that is seldom done by Sch people anymore....albeit to the detriment of the breed's fight drive. I have also seen Andy Maly Vah do muzzle work and believe me it was one of the reasons the dog impressed me. Just my take on aspects of identifying fight drive in action.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)




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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> With dogs working mainly in Defense drive, not the fight drive of those once-in-a-lifetime dogs, but the average club dog. Is there a risk than once in trial, with neutral and strange helpers, the dog will not know what is supposed to do? I know it is a problem with prey drive trained dogs, I've seen in some that do the work, routine is no problem, but you can tell that they are playing, and I've seen others in which the game is so different to what they know that the tail and bark tells me they are quite confused, even if the routine is, again, right.
> 
> How does affect the difference of training v/s trial to dogs trained in defense, v/s dogs trained in drive v/s those with real fight into them?


Anything that requires the helper to start the action will be a problem in SchH. If that requires the dog to be pumped up in drive or to be threatened to bring up defense drive, the dog will have problems from the beginning of the routine. The helper stands in the blind without any attractions, so, the dog's with active aggression will usually not have problems where the others will.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WAA1Q5eh7g


That video has nothing to do with dominance. They are simply getting the dog frustrated and letting the frustration tap into aggression.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Fast. You are right, I'm talking about a video of Stuka on the ground taking the fight to Mr. Laney and clearly trying to hurt or dominate him in the engagement. I'm talking about the dog using his body, feet, butting, to establish dominamce over the decoy. I'm sure you understand what I'm talking about when I say muzzle work.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One more thing, I am not saying the muzzle training should be used in Sch or Sch is bad because they don't use muzzle training,(because some people can't focus on the intent of the message without negativity), I am just saying that there was a time when a lot of the dogs doing protection work including Sch dogs would be worked in muzzle work. During this period it was very easy to see the level and intensity of the fight drive in this type of training. You very seldom see it utilized much anymore in Sch except for people in the sport that seem to maintain a connection with Law Enforcement. I like to see dogs work in muzzlework to give me added information about the dog's psyche. Just me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have a link to that video, Clif? I did a search and that was the only one that popped up/with muzzlework in the links
It would be great to see the one you are referring to!


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## Tehillah (Jun 21, 2010)

Here are links to some excellent SchH articles on the different drives. 


Schutzhund Village
Schutzhund Village


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jane, maybe Nate has taken it down...I know Melanie had some Utube work of Andy doing muzzle work. Sorry!


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