# Thought on this German breeder and litter



## gEEksWag03

Hello All,


I am looking opinions on the below breeder/kennel and pedigree. I have never dealt with an overseas breeder and so it's all a little new. The breeder seems very nice and knowledgeable but being that she is all the way in 
Germany, i have no idea. Any help would be greatly appreciated, i'm looking to get her pick of the litter. I am looking to compete in SCH/IPO at a regional/national level. 

She offers SV papers, I am asking her to keep the pup til 12 weeks old, so she will give the 2nd round of shots, gives a teeth/hip/elbow/health guarantee and microchipped. 

pedigree is
Line-breeding for the progency of V1,INT.CH.,DT.CH.BOB Friko von Metunaj and Daily von Metunaj

Kennel is Die kostenlose Homepage mit page4 - Home and her name is Isa

Thank you
Anthony


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## JakodaCD OA

I am not one to be commenting on pedigrees, but I would like to ask, why go overseas when there are so many great breeders/dogs here in the states that you could do the same thing with? Jst curious


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## gEEksWag03

My thought is that there are great breeders here. Have a deposit on a staatsmacht litter but I came so late to the party on that, I may have to wait to the next litter which would add another 10 to 11 months on it. I am also looking for a lack or very dark sable that comes with potential for Top Sport and seems like a lot of breeders will say, "we choose based on what you're looking for, not color." Which is not a bad thing but when i am paying $1800-2500 for a puppy, I just want what i want. 

I am looking for a litter that would be ready to come home in January or February and I seemed to always be 3 or 4 on the list. 

This breeder is from what I researched very well respected in Germany but that doesnt always mean the same here in the US.


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## Liesje

A friend of mine is breeding her dark sable to another even darker sable, sport line dogs, I believe the planned sire for the litter just came in third or fourth at Nationals this weekend. Your timeline is kind of steep though. Puppies ready in January would be born in the next few weeks so yeah, most people looking for the top sport picks are already on the lists.

I like dark sables too and didn't really have trouble getting what I wanted in the US, within driving distance and $1500-$2000 budget.


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## onyx'girl

Have you seen any video's of the parents training or trialing? Or vid's of offspring of the dam or sire's other breedings to see how they are turning out?
Sometimes dogs can be "too" sporty and leak drive...very hard to cap it. Even the highest scorers should have selective breeding matches to keep the stability.


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## gEEksWag03

Liesje said:


> A friend of mine is breeding her dark sable to another even darker sable, sport line dogs, I believe the planned sire for the litter just came in third or fourth at Nationals this weekend. Your timeline is kind of steep though. Puppies ready in January would be born in the next few weeks so yeah, most people looking for the top sport picks are already on the lists.
> 
> I like dark sables too and didn't really have trouble getting what I wanted in the US, within driving distance and $1500-$2000 budget.


This sounds like a great litter your friend has coming up, would you mind sharing who and what kennel??

I am looking for puppies that would be ready in January, February or even March. Seems like people make reservations 6 months to a year in advance, this is great if you are already in the world and knew these breeders but when trying to break in, sometimes you end up like me..........getting 3 or 4 on the list. And when looking for a top male prospect, it gets difficult.

This is when I expanded my search and was contacted by this breeder. I am trying to do as much research as possible but she offfers a lot of up front information and a the same guarantees as a US breeder. Also, SV papers.


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## gEEksWag03

onyx'girl said:


> Have you seen any video's of the parents training or trialing? Or vid's of offspring of the dam or sire's other breedings to see how they are turning out?
> Sometimes dogs can be "too" sporty and leak drive...very hard to cap it. Even the highest scorers should have selective breeding matches to keep the stability.


I have seen some and from what I have see i was very pleased. 

Sire's offspring
Progeny list for V1,INT.CH.,DT.CH.BOB Friko von Metunaj






Sire's training
Friko von Metunaj - working-dog.eu

Dam's Training





Daily von Metunaj - working-dog.eu


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## Elaine

If you are in that much of a hurry to get a puppy and already have a deposit on one of Stefan's puppies, why don't you ask him to import you one? Nobody is going to know what's what over there better than he does and he will import. He's one of the first people that I would look to for getting a top level sport or working dog.


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## gEEksWag03

Elaine said:


> If you are in that much of a hurry to get a puppy and already have a deposit on one of Stefan's puppies, why don't you ask him to import you one? Nobody is going to know what's what over there better than he does and he will import. He's one of the first people that I would look to for getting a top level sport or working dog.


I wasn't aware they imported for clients. I will look into that. Thank you for that heads up. I only knew of Eurosport and AlpineK9.


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## Elaine

He knows everybody over there and who breeds what. He will import when asked.

I will say that his pups are worth waiting for though. I have one of them and the drive on this dog is out of this world and I love his build. Most of the litter, and I see most of them, has the potential for very high level training.


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## cliffson1

You asked for thoughts on this breeding.....Well....it is not the kind of breeding I would import a puppy from UNLESS I had a personal relationship with the breeder and they assured me they had what I wanted. This pedigree has some very nice dogs in it, but there are a lot of different strengths and traits in this breeding. You could get a great sport dog, a great LE prospect, a very reactive dog, a very soft dog, a very hard dog, a very over the top drive dog.....now which one will the breeder send you???? If you lack a relationship with the breeder, then chances increase that you may not get what you are seeking.hey, but that just one take on it.....Good Luck whichever way you go.


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## gEEksWag03

cliffson1 said:


> You asked for thoughts on this breeding.....Well....it is not the kind of breeding I would import a puppy from UNLESS I had a personal relationship with the breeder and they assured me they had what I wanted. This pedigree has some very nice dogs in it, but there are a lot of different strengths and traits in this breeding. You could get a great sport dog, a great LE prospect, a very reactive dog, a very soft dog, a very hard dog, a very over the top drive dog.....now which one will the breeder send you???? If you lack a relationship with the breeder, then chances increase that you may not get what you are seeking.hey, but that just one take on it.....Good Luck whichever way you go.


Cliffson1, i totally respect your view on this but is that not the case with any breeder. Unless you know them personally, you have to rely on opinions and pedigrees., right?? Bill Kulla gave her a raving review and so did a few other well known breeders I emailed but still, i was hesitant on getting a dog shipped overseas....i always think it's too much stress. So due to that, even with the rave reviews, i decided to go with a US breeder. 

I had it down to 2, SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs and Staatsmacht Kennel, one of the top working lines kennel in the world both great kennels with awesome feedback and dogs. I first choose in a moment of impulse to put a deposit on a Staatsmacht litter but was just not really liking the communication. I know its a great place but I think I was looking for more, so I cancelled my deposit.

I still being leary was emailed back and forth with Jean @ SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs and just couldn't have felt better with her. She is awesome and has walked me through the whole process, not made me feel uninformed in any way and I love it. She is great and so i just last Friday but a deposit on a litter. She even put up with my request for a #1 all black male pick with potential for regional/national Top Sport. 
Since I was #3 on the list, I might not get what i want out this great match up F litter she has with Argo x Bara, so if I don't I will be #1 on list for a litter between her Qash x Argo or Qash x Lord.....both great breedins and would definately give me what I want. I am very excited. 

So, I will either be getting a puppy from her in late Jan/early Feb from Argo x Bara or Late May/early June from Qash x Argo or Qash x Lord.

And here are the pedigrees........thoughts????

Argo x Bara

Line-breeding for the progency of Argo z Libocké zahrady and VD Bára z Ronbaru


Qash x Argo
Line-breeding for the progency of Argo z Libocké zahrady and Qash Mirr von Schraderhaus

Qash x Lord
Line-breeding for the progency of V Lord von den Grauen von Monstab and Qash Mirr von Schraderhaus


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## cliffson1

Noooooo, it's not the case with every breeder, IMO. THE reason it's hard to determine what you receive is that the genetics of the breeding you gave has many different tangents in it....so the need for the personal relationship for comfort....many litters are hard wired with the same type of dogs throughout the pedigree in terms of nerves, aggression, hardness, prey, defense, gait, softness, whatever....in those cases you can have a much higher success of receiving the dog you want if the type is the type that is consistent throughout the pedigree. Hope this makes sense....btw, I have imported many puppies from overseas and have not seen stress affecting what comes out the box....if the pup is sound it's a piece of cake for the pup.


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## blackshep

cliffson1 said:


> Noooooo, it's not the case with every breeder, IMO. THE reason it's hard to determine what you receive is that the genetics of the breeding you gave has many different tangents in it....so the need for the personal relationship for comfort....many litters are hard wired with the same type of dogs throughout the pedigree in terms of nerves, aggression, hardness, prey, defense, gait, softness, whatever....in those cases you can have a much higher success of receiving the dog you want if the type is the type that is consistent throughout the pedigree. Hope this makes sense....btw, I have imported many puppies from overseas and have not seen stress affecting what comes out the box....if the pup is sound it's a piece of cake for the pup.


That is a really great explanation


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## gEEksWag03

cliffson1 said:


> Noooooo, it's not the case with every breeder, IMO. THE reason it's hard to determine what you receive is that the genetics of the breeding you gave has many different tangents in it....so the need for the personal relationship for comfort....many litters are hard wired with the same type of dogs throughout the pedigree in terms of nerves, aggression, hardness, prey, defense, gait, softness, whatever....in those cases you can have a much higher success of receiving the dog you want if the type is the type that is consistent throughout the pedigree. Hope this makes sense....btw, I have imported many puppies from overseas and have not seen stress affecting what comes out the box....if the pup is sound it's a piece of cake for the pup.


I think that that "personal comfort" comes from dealing with a certain breeder for a while. Or getting lots of advice but from what I see, your opinions and views come with great wisdom and I appreciate it. It helps me learn and grow more in this arena. 

I am happy I made the choice to go with Jean and look forward to posting more and learning from experienced people like yourself.


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## Ace952

it all depends on your goals for u and the dog are. What are your plans. This is your first shepherd?


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## Ace952

i also agree that a personal relationship helps big time.


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## blackshep

Ace952 said:


> i also agree that a personal relationship helps big time.


It does, but then again, that relationship has to start somewhere, too.


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## wolfstraum

gEEksWag03 said:


> My thought is that there are great breeders here. Have a deposit on a staatsmacht litter but I came so late to the party on that, I may have to wait to the next litter which would add another 10 to 11 months on it. I am also looking for a lack or very dark sable that comes with potential for Top Sport and seems like a lot of breeders will say, "we choose based on what you're looking for, not color." Which is not a bad thing but when i am paying $1800-2500 for a puppy, I just want what i want.
> 
> I am looking for a litter that would be ready to come home in January or February and I seemed to always be 3 or 4 on the list.
> 
> This breeder is from what I researched very well respected in Germany but that doesnt always mean the same here in the US.


Top Sport or Color - those 2 criteria are very very very far apart....the dog who won this years Nationals had medium to light color.....the darkest dog in the trial was way down the list.....the black dogs were not high either.....and points are NOT EVERYTHING!!! The Nationals winner is a nice dog - but he won based on secondary obedience - other equally as strong or stronger dogs lost more points on fronts, basic position, etc....

I don't see "top sport" probablity in that pedigree...I see some dogs and combos that preclude characteristics needed/causing issues that would let the dog go "top sport" - unless, of course, if you are an experienced "top sport" trainer/handler.....seriously - "top sport" is more about the handler's ability and experience than the actual dog.

If you want "top sport" and elbow, hip etc warranties...then buy an older dog.....you can see what you will get....

That being said - I know of a litter being bred in a few weeks (female in heat) that is from a WUSV competitor, National winner....and both sides are dark to darker sable....female has already produced a "top sport" dog, as has her dam.

Lee


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## wolfstraum

Just saw you put a deposit on a puppy.........

Did you give up on "top sport"????? Seems that color is more important.....while these are nice looking and titled dogs....there is no indication that this breeder is even trying to produce "top sport" pups.....few of hers even show up being titled in trial results.....

If you want a top sport puppy - you go where there is experience at that level IMO

Lee


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## huntergreen

interesting, if i could design my next gsd i know what color i would want, but the traits i want in a gsd are far more important than color. in other word, i wouldn't let color determine how i choose a pup.


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## gEEksWag03

Ace952 said:


> it all depends on your goals for u and the dog are. What are your plans. This is your first shepherd?


My plans are to eventually compete at a regional/national level. International competition doesn't appeal to me at this time but that could change. I have owned GSDs all my life, never for competition but more of a companion and i want to change that up.


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## gEEksWag03

wolfstraum said:


> Top Sport or Color - those 2 criteria are very very very far apart....the dog who won this years Nationals had medium to light color.....the darkest dog in the trial was way down the list.....the black dogs were not high either.....and points are NOT EVERYTHING!!! The Nationals winner is a nice dog - but he won based on secondary obedience - other equally as strong or stronger dogs lost more points on fronts, basic position, etc....
> 
> I don't see "top sport" probablity in that pedigree...I see some dogs and combos that preclude characteristics needed/causing issues that would let the dog go "top sport" - unless, of course, if you are an experienced "top sport" trainer/handler.....seriously - "top sport" is more about the handler's ability and experience than the actual dog.
> 
> If you want "top sport" and elbow, hip etc warranties...then buy an older dog.....you can see what you will get....
> 
> That being said - I know of a litter being bred in a few weeks (female in heat) that is from a WUSV competitor, National winner....and both sides are dark to darker sable....female has already produced a "top sport" dog, as has her dam.
> 
> Lee





wolfstraum said:


> Just saw you put a deposit on a puppy.........
> 
> Did you give up on "top sport"????? Seems that color is more important.....while these are nice looking and titled dogs....there is no indication that this breeder is even trying to produce "top sport" pups.....few of hers even show up being titled in trial results.....
> 
> If you want a top sport puppy - you go where there is experience at that level IMO
> 
> Lee



Lee, I think that it's a total package. Nothing is perfect but we want what we want. If I want a certain type of car or house, i'm going to go to the person I feel can get me there. If I want a dog who has potential to compete at a high level and I want it to be black, I am sure that can be achieved also. It takes the right breeder and more the owner who is molding the dog. But with everything else, it starts somewhere. 

I am a very strong handler and believe Jean @ schraderhausk9 will give me exactly what i am looking for. 

I believe a dog is a reflection of breeding but also the owner, so if she gives me a pup with all that she believes i am looking for, I can get him all the way there. This is the confidence i have in myself and my ability when given the right tools/instrument. 

I also dont believe point are everything, there are dogs that place 4th or 5th that are amazing so this i know. But i also know that there are dogs out there that compete very well and are black, like Italo z Eurosportu or Erri z Blatenskeho.


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## gEEksWag03

huntergreen said:


> interesting, if i could design my next gsd i know what color i would want, but the traits i want in a gsd are far more important than color. in other word, i wouldn't let color determine how i choose a pup.


I agree but if you could get both, why not get both?? If you have a breeder who has dogs with lines that produce and will give the color you'd like......seems to me you would. 

Yes, I have seen that everyone has there own idea of this. To me this seems like a topic with people on both sides. When you are paying $1500 - $2000, if not more. You want as close to when you can get as possible. And you'd pick a breeder who believes s/he can offer you this. 

Everyone here offers awesome opinions, great to see healthy debate/conversations happening.


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## blackshep

I kind of agree with the OP to a certain extent.

I would NEVER compromise temperament for colour, but if you really love a particular look and colour, is there anything wrong with holding out for the whole package?

I'm curious? 

For someone like me, I don't own a kennel full of dogs. Why would a person pick a black lab over a yellow or chocolate for example, if they were all well bred dogs from a good breeder? People pick colours all the time. 

I'll admit, I was smitten with the sable female in my pup's litter, but the breeder picked a black pup for me. I was a bit disappointed. Now that I have her, I wonder what I was thinking - she's gorgeous, and since you don't see a heck of a lot of black GSD's outside in the real world I think she's unique and people ogle her all the time when I'm out and about.

My horse too, I always hated chestnut horses, but of course that's what I ended up buying.

Can you not have your cake and eat it too? I realize colour isn't important in the grand scheme of things, but with all the nice dogs out there, is it so bad if that is a criteria? Even if it's lower down on the list? 

It's not really something I'd get too hung up on, but if I were looking at two dogs who were more or less equal, but one came in the colour I liked, would it be bad to pick that one, for that reason?


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## wolfstraum

Erri and Italo are with top experienced handlers....neither were bred by a kennel whose pups are primarily sold to companion homes.....I have a nice nice looking Sch3 black dog myself - ruined in OB/dumbbells unfortunately - went to a Regional with him early on...but the dumbbells kept me from being competitive....you won't find a better looking black dog than my male's sire....also Sch3 and V rated...

I am sure you will get a nice looking puppy. I am sure you will enjoy your puppy.....but if you want to be competitive, you get a pup from someone who produces a good percentage of dogs who get titled.....

Lee


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## Ace952

I know of 2 or 3 breeders in czech that mainly produce black dogs that do sport at top levels.

I agree with what Lee said about the term "top sport"


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## gEEksWag03

wolfstraum said:


> Erri and Italo are with top experienced handlers....neither were bred by a kennel whose pups are primarily sold to companion homes.....I have a nice nice looking Sch3 black dog myself - ruined in OB/dumbbells unfortunately - went to a Regional with him early on...but the dumbbells kept me from being competitive....you won't find a better looking black dog than my male's sire....also Sch3 and V rated...
> 
> I am sure you will get a nice looking puppy. I am sure you will enjoy your puppy.....but if you want to be competitive, you get a pup from someone who produces a good percentage of dogs who get titled.....
> 
> Lee



Lee, I am confused. Are you referring to schraderhausk9?? I am confused, since in doing my research, there were only a handful of kennels that came up. You were actually one of the first i emailed but never got back to me. Jean seemed really respected and from what I have seen, she has lots of SG/V rated, SCH3/IPO3/BSP/WUSV dogs with lots of great looking parents and on and on. 

I think Italo/Erri because they have a great handler but those handlers started somewhere. Some people are great because they work hard and bond so great with their dog. But the dog has a lot to do with this and the breeder. 

Before you got into GSDs, you had to trust someone to guide you, you had to read and research and go look. I have/had to do the same and after literally contacting no less than 30 breeders, not counting overseas, Jean got it. Now maybe I wont get what I am looking for still but maybe I will. Jean does her part as a breeder and gives me what I am looking for in a pup and I'll do the rest. 

I thought Krougar was amazing and I wanted a pup from him like crazy but I think Argo is equally amazing. 

If you have a different perspective, please PM me. Call me, lets chat. I love to learn and chat about things people are passionate about. It makes the whole process so much more rewarding.


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## gEEksWag03

Lee, could you also please tell me what you see that would give you pause to think this dog would be good for "Top Sport?" I honestly don't know as much as you in this regard and maybe your concerns would be mine, if I knew what they were.


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## holland

I always wonder why the black dog doesn't have a name-liked his dam -actually I own her granddaughter-I wanted a bi-color


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## wolfstraum

Anthony - I am sorry if you emailed me and did not get an answer......I am very prompt in answering emails....but I did spend almost 6 months in hospital/rehab after a serious car wreck.

Lee


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## gEEksWag03

wolfstraum said:


> Anthony - I am sorry if you emailed me and did not get an answer......I am very prompt in answering emails....but I did spend almost 6 months in hospital/rehab after a serious car wreck.
> 
> Lee


Oh wow, I am very sorry to hear that. I hope everything is back to 100% or at least all is going in the right direction.


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## BlackthornGSD

I wouldn't hesitate to get a pup from the Argo x Bara litter--I love her pedigree and she's very highly trained and titled.

The combination of Lord vd GM with a DDR x Javir daughter makes me raise an eyebrow. That wouldn't be my first choice for schutzhund sport. 

I think you've gotten some good input from others in this thread. I like and respect Jean very much--but some of the other breeders you have talked to have been more closely focused with their breeding programs on producing dogs that excel in schutzhund and other bitesports, which is what I think others were trying to point out.


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## gEEksWag03

BlackthornGSD said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to get a pup from the Argo x Bara litter--I love her pedigree and she's very highly trained and titled.
> 
> The combination of Lord vd GM with a DDR x Javir daughter makes me raise an eyebrow. That wouldn't be my first choice for schutzhund sport.
> 
> I think you've gotten some good input from others in this thread. I like and respect Jean very much--but some of the other breeders you have talked to have been more closely focused with their breeding programs on producing dogs that excel in schutzhund and other bitesports, which is what I think others were trying to point out.


The Argo x Bara litter I am truly hoping for. It am very excited for. I would also very very happy with a Argo x Qash litter. The Qash x Lord paring, what is the raised eyebrow for? Am I missing something in the pedigree???


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## BlackthornGSD

gEEksWag03 said:


> The Argo x Bara litter I am truly hoping for. It am very excited for. I would also very very happy with a Argo x Qash litter. The Qash x Lord paring, what is the raised eyebrow for? Am I missing something in the pedigree???


It could be just great... But I don't know what the Javir x an all DDR female breeding produced in Qash--I could see that combo producing either some very nice or some very mixed up dogs. And then Lord's pedigree has some elements that are more civil and dominant-type... So, it could be great--but it's going to matter a lot how the dam is and how the rest of her litter turned out--what elements predominated in that breeding and what will she produce?


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## cliffson1

I agree with Blackthorn in her assessment....I know what she is saying but it is difficult to explain unless you really understand the traits and interactions of these dogs. I really like the Argo/Bara litter as giving the best total dog that can go as far as your training ability. Solid, solid working traits with good hardness and nerve genetically...the only concerns you can pm me if you want. The other two breedings may produce some nice dogs, but I don't like the Javier fit with the newer DDR lines. Doesn't mean great dogs wouldn't come from, but national level sport dogs.....possibly but don't like odds. Let me also say that Jean is very very nice breeder and very knowledgable of the breed. But when looking for top sport....there are certain lines that seem to be prominent....other than Javir....I don't see it.


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## gEEksWag03

I am really hoping for a Argo x Bara pup but if not, could anyone please recommend a breeder that would breed a dog for what I am looking for?


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## holland

Just to be really clear on what they are saying-the female matters and I would never buy from a breeder who believes that when they got a good dog it was due to the stud only-ever- which isn't commentary on the breeder you selected-I have no clue-go contact clubs in the area and seek out their reccomendation


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## gEEksWag03

holland said:


> Just to be really clear on what they are saying-the female matters and I would never buy from a breeder who believes that when they got a good dog it was due to the stud only-ever- which isn't commentary on the breeder you selected-I have no clue-go contact clubs in the area and seek out their reccomendation


Holland, I have gone to some clubs and why not ask on here. However, this is a German Shepherd Forum, I think there are very knowledgeable people on here who can recommend breeders. If you have any breeders you are in mind, please pm me. Thx


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## Smithie86

Anthony,

May I ask who you will be training with? That is part of the equation, as well.


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## gEEksWag03

Smithie86 said:


> Anthony,
> 
> May I ask who you will be training with? That is part of the equation, as well.


I will be going to train adler-stein-kennels first, most likely and then with my local sch clud Welcome to SCSC


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## VALOR

I was also curious as to who you will train with as I live very close to Long Beach. If you are lined up to train with Anne at Adler Stein, why not look to her for advice on a pup ?


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## cliffson1

You can get a very nice pup from Sue and Gabor from this forum....they breed the ideal type dog for what you want.


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## Ace952

i know if some breedings coming up that have great sport potential (depends on handler & trainer) You would have to impirt though.


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## Smithie86

Thank you Cliff .

But, the reason that I asked about who you wll train with is multi-fold.

1. Are they OK with you getting a puppy from another breeder outside the club? There are some clubs that like to focus on dogs within or only certain types of dogs. Some are only good with young adult dogs.

2. To get to the level that you are looking for with a puppy, is there a training director, helper, etc in the club who has done that repeatedly with a puppy in the last few years to the National level and score in the x level that you are looking for?

If you are lined up with Anne, I echo the comment about talking to her about what to look for.


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## gEEksWag03

VALOR said:


> I was also curious as to who you will train with as I live very close to Long Beach. If you are lined up to train with Anne at Adler Stein, why not look to her for advice on a pup ?


I am still not sure, which is why i said "most likely" I work in Torrance and live in Long Beach so she is at least 1 1/2 hr i the wrong direction but is still a possibility.


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## gEEksWag03

cliffson1 said:


> You can get a very nice pup from Sue and Gabor from this forum....they breed the ideal type dog for what you want.


Cliff thx for the PM and I will look for Sue and Gabor. I am guessing Gabor is K9imports but do you know Sue's username or her kennel so I could contact her that way.


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## gEEksWag03

Ace952 said:


> i know if some breedings coming up that have great sport potential (depends on handler & trainer) You would have to impirt though.


I have no problem with an import if it comes from the right breeder and would provide me with what i am looking for. The tread started with a german import but seems that most are saying it wouldn't produce what i am looking for. If I can find one that would, i would be more than ok with it.


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## hunterisgreat

gEEksWag03 said:


> Cliff thx for the PM and I will look for Sue and Gabor. I am guessing Gabor is K9imports but do you know Sue's username or her kennel so I could contact her that way.


Smithie86 posting right above you lol


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## gEEksWag03

Smithie86 said:


> Thank you Cliff .
> 
> But, the reason that I asked about who you wll train with is multi-fold.
> 
> 1. Are they OK with you getting a puppy from another breeder outside the club? There are some clubs that like to focus on dogs within or only certain types of dogs. Some are only good with young adult dogs.
> 
> 2. To get to the level that you are looking for with a puppy, is there a training director, helper, etc in the club who has done that repeatedly with a puppy in the last few years to the National level and score in the x level that you are looking for?
> 
> If you are lined up with Anne, I echo the comment about talking to her about what to look for.


1. I just want to get what i am looking for, from a good breeder that can be more than just a breeder who gives one word answers and gets what I am trying to do. 

2. I am not sure but they come highly recommended but I can look into this. 

Since, i did look just now at k9imports.com, come great looking dogs. Do you believe you could help me with exactly what i am looking for. If so, could you pm me to discuss further.


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## gagsd

I have met Sue and Gabor and even trained with them a few times. In my opinion, they are knowledgeable and honest and CERTAINLY have dogs owner-trained and owner-bred competing at the highest levels.
And doing well at it, if I might add.


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## Ace952

here is a breeding that just took place. I have a pup from them. They work and title all of their dogs. Their dogs go to nationals and breeder puts zvv3 's on dogs from his breedings.

Line-breeding for the progency of VD Miki z Berounské basty and VD Jikra z Trucu

There are 2 are black females from this litter left.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1840495


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## gEEksWag03

Ace952 said:


> here is a breeding that just took place. I have a pup from them. They work and title all of their dogs. Their dogs go to nationals and breeder puts zvv3 's on dogs from his breedings.
> 
> Line-breeding for the progency of VD Miki z Berounské basty and VD Jikra z Trucu


Wow, very nice. The Dam is beautiful and stud is the exact body type i'm looking for. Not wirey.....Can you pm me how to contact them about this?


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## Ace952

sure


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## gEEksWag03

Thank you all for your help so far on my journey, I have one more that i'd like your opinion on

Line-breeding for the progency of SG Erri z Blatenskeho Zamku and ZVV1 Gabbi Mariko Bohemia


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## Mrs.K

Smithie86 said:


> Thank you Cliff .
> 
> But, the reason that I asked about who you wll train with is multi-fold.
> 
> 1. Are they OK with you getting a puppy from another breeder outside the club? There are some clubs that like to focus on dogs within or only certain types of dogs. Some are only good with young adult dogs.
> 
> 2. To get to the level that you are looking for with a puppy, is there a training director, helper, etc in the club who has done that repeatedly with a puppy in the last few years to the National level and score in the x level that you are looking for?
> 
> If you are lined up with Anne, I echo the comment about talking to her about what to look for.


I wouldn't want to be with a club that wants me to buy from their own people. The OP is it's own person. He can go wherever he wants. If the club has an issue with that, tough luck, there is always another place you can go to, even if it is a longer drive. 
There are also private training groups. If you look long enough, you will eventually find something.


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## wolfy dog

Sometimes the best dog for you is within reach. I have been looking for years and years and was starting to look oversees when I came across WD's breeder within two hours drive from me. He only had two pups available; one being WD, who happened to be 9 weeks old!!!! 
The breeder told me that WD would be what I was looking for but not his brother who was very high drive. I believed and trusted him as I knew his good reputation and I didn't see any red flags and WD was calm and social. He was right; I couldn't have wished for a better match.


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## gagsd

gEEksWag03 said:


> Thank you all for your help so far on my journey, I have one more that i'd like your opinion on
> 
> Line-breeding for the progency of SG Erri z Blatenskeho Zamku and ZVV1 Gabbi Mariko Bohemia


Interesting. My Akina is very similar breeding.The worst thing I can say is size. Many of the Erri progeny I have seen are small, as is Akina. Janaeulva on this board also has a littermatre.

Quick, willing, lots of drive. My girl has plenty of "defense" as well as prey. She is more "prey" and when first doing bitework had a problem barking because she was so overloaded. She is not a "powerhouse" but then she is small, the full sleeve makes her flip over when she carries. Very methodical tracker. She can be a little soft in obedience. Fast, fast, fast! Agile. "Flyer" in the bitework.

People in schutzhund state they love her. Pistol, Firecracker.... these are things people call her.
She is also an excellent house dog. A bit territorial and shows guarding behavior of "her" things.


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## cliffson1

I sent you pm about this breeding, that issue aside this is a nice working litter.


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## holland

I think most clubs will probably not care who the dog was bred by if it is a good working dog-thats my experience -there is another piece of going to the nationals though and you might want to go visit a schutzhund club-to see if its something you want to do-I kinda like the corgis the first breeder had -of course you probably don't need to go to Germany for a corgi-that breed is growing on me-


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## gEEksWag03

So after lots of input and thought, I have narrowed down my focus and hopefully i'll get the kind of pup i'm looking for. Below is who I have chosen. I have a deposit with both breeders. Wish me luck!!! 

1. Argo x Bara pup, this is an exciting litter for me
Line-breeding for the progency of Argo z Libocké zahrady and VD Bára z Ronbaru

I have been talking with Dari from German Shepherd Dogs Van Den Heuvel k9 406-438-1092 and she has 3 very interesting breedings and she would be the best of these 3 fitting what I am looking for.

Orry (IT) x Xanta Vitaxis
Line-breeding for the progency of SG Orry (IT) and SG Xanta Vitaxis

or 

Norbo Ben Ju(from frozen) x her Dam Bomba
pedigree for Norbo
VELMI DOBRY NORBO BEN-JU
pedigree for Bomba
Line-breeding for the progency of SG Isaac vom Bracheler See and Bega spod Kostola

or

Varen Van Den Heuvel (Son of Orry) x Sami Gymor
Pedigree for Sami
Sami Gymor
Pedigree for Varen
Line-breeding for the progency of SG Orry (IT) and Ulrike Egidius


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## GSD13

Did you decide which way you're going yet???


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## cliffson1

I will call around 6 pm PST.


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## carmspack

"The combination of Lord vd GM with a DDR x Javir daughter makes me raise an eyebrow. That wouldn't be my first choice for schutzhund sport."

I have to ask why not?


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## BlackthornGSD

carmspack said:


> "The combination of Lord vd GM with a DDR x Javir daughter makes me raise an eyebrow. That wouldn't be my first choice for schutzhund sport."
> 
> I have to ask why not?


I think the pups could do the sport but won't grow up to be the type of dogs easily trained for high levels of competition--which is what the poster has indicated is his goal.


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## carmspack

still needing to ask why. The DDR portion of the pedigree provides a rich vein of resources to Bernd Lierberg .
Javir does also .


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## lhczth

Yes, but the Lierberg's can be late maturing and sometimes much more difficult to touch or much harder to bring into drive. With the training now days not many know how to work these dogs.


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## wolfstraum

Putting down deposits on two litters?? Are you prepared to forfeit the one you don't go with??? 

Agreed that for your goals, I don't see that these are a good fit either...

Lee


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## BlackthornGSD

carmspack said:


> still needing to ask why. The DDR portion of the pedigree provides a rich vein of resources to Bernd Lierberg .
> Javir does also .


I don't have sufficient experience with the Javir progeny, but my impression is that they are very high drive, have very high prey aggression, and have very low thresholds. Combine that with some DDR lines that can be very civil and have high defense/territory aggression. There may also be some dogs with a lot of social aggression and some who may be a bit soft in temperament. So, in the puppies, you have a very wide dispersion of traits, and the balance of hardness, threshold, and aggression is probably going to be pretty varied across the litter.

As I'm sure you know, having a great working dog isn't just having good nerves and high drive--there's a lot of other things that work together to make the whole dog, to determine how the dog learns, how he handles frustration and anticipation, how the dog handles inactivity as well as periods of intense and frequent high-stress activity. Many of the best dogs are not just high drive and intense--their whole make up works well together to create a dog who is a pleasure to train and live with and who can take 100% of that drive and release it into the work with intensity and control.

The best pups from this type of breeding could be awesome, but the worst ones could be a terrible "package" for working and titling in schutzhund (even if that pup ends up being a fantastic dog for some other type of home). For someone who is looking for a dog to take to national level schutzhund competition... I don't think that this type of breeding is the _best _choice. Which is the question I was addressing.


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## gEEksWag03

Hello all, it's been a while since i've been on. I got really busy with work and school and having to move. My stupid landlord is going out of the country and 2 months before he leaves he tells me.

So.......here's my update. 

The Argo x Bara litter i passed on. I didn't think i would find a new place so soon, went from renting to buying but I found a great place. 

So, so far I have lost two deposits but it doesn't bother me just because I feel more than anything, i want to click with the breeder. I feel like it should be a bond. I also have become more enlightened on breeders, breedings, and that COLOR DOESN'T MATTER HAHAHAH so.........

I have only continued to work with Dari (who is amazing and great to work with) but dropped out of all previous litters and wanted something I could really get behind and she truly gave me it.... Her Hank vom Weinbergblick and Fuxie Vepeden breeding. 
Line-breeding for the progency of V (LGZS) Hank vom Weinbergblick and Fuxie Vepeden

I have seen progeny from this and I am in love with one of them. 

Cliff from here told me about a awesome guy named Zbynek. This is a good man and he has a great breeding coming up also

Zwinger Aritar Bastet: Zucht von Ares vom Wolfsblut und Jawa Aritar Bastet bei Working-dog.eu

Both are whelping within 2 days of eachother. 
I truly believe either of these will give me when I am looking for and would love other opinions. 

I really like the Tom son and Sid daughter combination but Hank brings Vito, Tom, Qerry, Fado and Ernst and Dam side is strong too with Norman Eqidius, Nike Eqidius, Jaguar Aritar Bastet, and Grim z Pohranicni straze CS

Both of these I believe will give me what I want..........either way, I will have a new pup by end of March!!!!!!


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## Mrs.K

If I ever went with Czech Blood, I'd go with Aritar Bastet. I've seen several dogs out of that kennel and every single one of them was exceptional.


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## cliffson1

Jawa from what Zbynek tells me is superior to her mother Zendy...and Zendy produced my heart dog, even though I am like the tin man in Wizard of Oz when it comes to hearts:wild:.....good luck. Btw, the best female I have had in past 20 years came from Dari....picked by her specifically for me. A Hagi Barnero daughter....have fun with your new addition!


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## wolfstraum

again, you can't pick a top working prospect on color....go look at the results of National and WUSV -very few top dogs are dark sables....only one dog at the Nationals this year was even near a true black sable (Gordon Fuchsgraben- find his WDC protection video from 2012)

And even fewer are Czech bred....now and then - yes.....

You say you "like" certain lines??? WHY? What makes you like them??? Because you have seen/worked with/spent time with dogs from the pedigrees??? Or because they are in pedigrees?

Go look at the dog who won the Nationals this year.....find his pedigree online....he is light sable, one testicle, and had absolutely clean secondary obedience in protection and a very high obedience score. Winning is not always going to be the result of the best dog.....the most powerful dogs in the trial were not the winner - Chuck, Max, Irmus.....but with a dog with power, control is harder, and points are easier to loose....you want that potential....and you want to dictate the color of the pup too??? And all types of guarantees?? As a first timer - what the dog does depends more on you and your ability and your dedication more than the dogs quality...

<<<shaking head>>>> Tom - Yoshey - Mink.....LOL LOL There are litters here in the US - friend owns one whelped last week - same combo....National/World dog sire....V rated, IPO3, KKL1 OFA Good/Normal dam....lots of World dogs and World producers in pedigree. National competitor taking pupppy, black and dark sable pups, but not enough males to go around. 

No one can guarantee the adult color of an 8 week old pup for absolute certain....I have a near black sable female - everyone else will call her black sable.....in 2 litters only 1 pup in each is nearly as dark...and only one of those two did I suspect of being that dark as a pup.....the other I was surprised about....

My point being, you can get just as good here - Drago Patriot here....friend is breeding a female next week....will be line breeding on Exe Smeidgarten.....with his dark color and hers, and her sire being black, should have nice rich sables...

If you are going Czech, Stribene Kemehno is a top top kennel with several dogs competing at high levels as well...

Lee


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## GSDElsa

If you do decide to import a dog, another recommendation for Aritar Bastet from me. You can PM me any questions you might have.


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## gEEksWag03

cliffson1 said:


> Jawa from what Zbynek tells me is superior to her mother Zendy...and Zendy produced my heart dog, even though I am like the tin man in Wizard of Oz when it comes to hearts:wild:.....good luck. Btw, the best female I have had in past 20 years came from Dari....picked by her specifically for me. A Hagi Barnero daughter....have fun with your new addition!


LOL........yes, everytime i speak with Dari she impresses me more and more with her knowledge and passion. Fuxie x Hank seems to me like a great breeding and it's repeat so I can look at these progey and i'm in love with one of them called Athos.

Zbynek just seems to have a great breeding with the Tom Son and Sid daughter. That's what is getting me but the time they evaluate I will pick and make the past decision for me. 

Thank you Cliff for all your advice and help and contact, i truly appreciate it.


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## CelticGlory

I'm not sure if anyone has mention Hans from Alpine K9? He has dogs he imports and knows the lines. I like his dogs, if I ever went with Czech/DDR lines he is one I would go with. Eurosport is another I really like the dogs, to play it safe I would go with a person who imports to help getting a dog from overseas. Some don't mind helping and working with a person to get a dog from overseas.


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## gEEksWag03

wolfstraum said:


> again, you can't pick a top working prospect on color....go look at the results of National and WUSV -very few top dogs are dark sables....only one dog at the Nationals this year was even near a true black sable (Gordon Fuchsgraben- find his WDC protection video from 2012)
> 
> And even fewer are Czech bred....now and then - yes.....
> 
> You say you "like" certain lines??? WHY? What makes you like them??? Because you have seen/worked with/spent time with dogs from the pedigrees??? Or because they are in pedigrees?
> 
> Go look at the dog who won the Nationals this year.....find his pedigree online....he is light sable, one testicle, and had absolutely clean secondary obedience in protection and a very high obedience score. Winning is not always going to be the result of the best dog.....the most powerful dogs in the trial were not the winner - Chuck, Max, Irmus.....but with a dog with power, control is harder, and points are easier to loose....you want that potential....and you want to dictate the color of the pup too??? And all types of guarantees?? As a first timer - what the dog does depends more on you and your ability and your dedication more than the dogs quality...
> 
> <<<shaking head>>>> Tom - Yoshey - Mink.....LOL LOL There are litters here in the US - friend owns one whelped last week - same combo....National/World dog sire....V rated, IPO3, KKL1 OFA Good/Normal dam....lots of World dogs and World producers in pedigree. National competitor taking pupppy, black and dark sable pups, but not enough males to go around.
> 
> No one can guarantee the adult color of an 8 week old pup for absolute certain....I have a near black sable female - everyone else will call her black sable.....in 2 litters only 1 pup in each is nearly as dark...and only one of those two did I suspect of being that dark as a pup.....the other I was surprised about....
> 
> My point being, you can get just as good here - Drago Patriot here....friend is breeding a female next week....will be line breeding on Exe Smeidgarten.....with his dark color and hers, and her sire being black, should have nice rich sables...
> 
> If you are going Czech, Stribene Kemehno is a top top kennel with several dogs competing at high levels as well...
> 
> Lee


I am very confused about your color statement since I didn't mention it but to say that color was no longer an issue for me as I have grown to appreciate more ability over it. I was never looking for dark sable in the first place but black. 

I like the dogs i listed because of the work I have seen them do. Obviously not in person, not everyone is able to travel all over to look at dogs. But from videos and speaking with many different people, I like what i see and hear. Also what i've read, all this goes into my decision. 

You seem to not have read my last post and so what I am a first-timer in ScH, is this supposed to mean i am not as good as someone else? How do you know my handling skills or intuitiveness?? Also, if you read, i also said i "COLOR DOESN'T MATTER" so maybe you should re-read my post. And since you point out one dog, I will as well, Hank vom Weinbergblick a Vito son, Tom Grandson so not sure your point??? As far as Chuck, Max and Irmus, the only one i like is Chuck and i reached out to Dan but Chuck will not be bred til late this year, so should i wait, no. Furious just had a litter but it wasn't with Chuck so I needed to move forward and find something I like that is available. 

I am also glad you have a friend that had a litter but sadly since I don't have as many contacts as you all I can do is search on the internet and via recommendations, so this is what I have done. And Dari and the Fuxie x Hank litter is here in the US. 

Drago is a great dog also but these are your friends, not mine. I can't know of every single breeding taking place. I have looked into Drago and the one i liked, the pregnancy didn't take. 

I think this site is to help people and educate people, not be also condescending. Just because you have tons of contacts and experience, that's all great but I do not in Dog Sport. But thank you for your assessment I need help finding quality litters.


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## GSDElsa

Even though I did it, I don't recommend to people to import just because it's a lot easier just to get a dog in the US. However, if someone wants to do it I don't really understand what the big deal is.

The OP seems to be doing their research and talking to as many people as possible about upcoming litters. Lots of people have a color preference, especially when new, and it sounds like the OP is on the right evolution for realizing that isn't the end all be all. Also interesting that certain people who definitely do have a color preference are ripping the OP for originally having one himself, but anyhoo.


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## wolfstraum

I just pulled this thread back up.....

When I mention that a friend had a litter - it means if you want info, PM me and I will pass it on....I was not trying to push the litter in general...

Sometimes, when someone does post, they have not read all the posts in a many paged thread - so sorry - I DID miss where you stated color was not as important now....

And yes - it does help to know what a person has seen that gives him a reason to like certain dogs!!! Then someone who knows what they are basing their preferences - on seeing work, on statistics of placements....it was not meant to be anything but a question that gives others more understanding of what you are trying to get....

I personally like Chuck alot....I have had him on a leash and worked him in obedience....I have hung out with him....so I *know* him more than the dogs that I have seen trial - he was bred to a 3/4 sister to one of my females and I really like what was produced....so that is a breeding I am planning right now, just waiting for the female to come into heat....there will be sables and bi/blankets in that litter as Chuck's recessive is black and tan (see Falk v d Wolfen for probably adult color) and Hexe and Furi both carry black as a recessive....

Sorry it took so long for me to see this....stuff pops up and disappears quickly off the 'active topics' page...

Lee


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