# Carmspack puppy inbound!!!



## David Winners

Tentative name is Valor


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Congratulations! I can't wait to follow this one!


----------



## Fodder

say whaaaaat!? congrats! cutie..


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Wow, what a cutie!


----------



## LuvShepherds

So exciting! Please tell Carm we miss her.


----------



## David Winners

I'm excited! I've wanted a pup from Carmen for a LONG time.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> I'm excited! I've wanted a pup from Carmen for a LONG time.


Are you planning on doing anything with him?


----------



## Sunflowers

Congratulations, David!
And what a great name.
I can’t wait to see what you do with the puppy who was always sniffing. He will excel at nosework, that’s for sure.


----------



## David Winners

Nosework, IPO, whatever he likes to do. I really want a go everywhere, do everything partner.

I'll start Nosework right away for sure. I'm headed up to Chris Wildland for a visit in a few weeks with my joint custody GSD Captain and I'll take Valor along. I'd love to do PSA or IPO with him.


----------



## NadDog24

Awww what a cutie


----------



## annabirdie

Congratulations!!


----------



## Kathrynil

Congrats! Nice looking puppy!


----------



## Cadfael

Very cool! purdy puppy!


----------



## David Winners

More current pic. I love his mask!


----------



## Cadfael

David Winners said:


> More current pic. I love his mask!
> View attachment 560697


That right there is cuteness in action!


----------



## Sunflowers

That masK! 🥰
That dog’s nickname has to be Bandit.
Or Ranger.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Congratulations!!!


----------



## sitstay

Super cool! That first photo is a hoot. He is looking right at you and saying, "bring it on"!
Sheilah


----------



## Bearshandler

When you put great dogs with great handlers, magic happens. I’m sure we’ll be hearing about more from this guy in the future.


----------



## onyx'girl

He is going to give you a great journey! So glad a Gus pup is in your future!


----------



## David Winners

My sweet boy is home


----------



## Sabis mom

Congratulations. I hope he is everything you hoped for.


----------



## David Winners

Super long, in depth opinion on this boy coming up. I'm very impressed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Super long, in depth opinion on this boy coming up. I'm very impressed.


You're prejudiced already! Lol

What's the name?


----------



## Sunflowers

Congratulations, David, enjoy him!
Valor will be 10 weeks on Friday and those ears are up! Already an overachiever!!


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You're prejudiced already! Lol
> 
> What's the name?


Valor is his name, and I'm not so sure I'm prejudiced 

He's got the biddable nature of a field lab with me, but is serious. He's aloof with strangers but friendly when approached. I walked through the hardware store with him on leash. He just came along at my side. No treats. No toys. No talking. Sat when I stopped. Laid down when I stayed stopped. Got up and moved along when I moved. Spent an entire busy day with me. Not one issue. I've had him for 31 hours and have done no shaping or luring or anything. Just spent time together doing daily stuff.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Valor is his name, and I'm not so sure I'm prejudiced
> 
> He's got the biddable nature of a field lab with me, but is serious. He's aloof with strangers but friendly when approached. I walked through the hardware store with him on leash. He just came along at my side. No treats. No toys. No talking. Sat when I stopped. Laid down when I stayed stopped. Got up and moved along when I moved. Spent an entire busy day with me. Not one issue. I've had him for 31 hours and have done no shaping or luring or anything. Just spent time together doing daily stuff.


He doesn't sound challenging enough for you. You send him to me and I will send the Mals to you for awhile.


----------



## Saphire

Lol I think the challenge will come out in a few months if he’s anything like his Sire.


----------



## Sunflowers

Brother Max says hey.

His ears are still in Flying Nun stage.😂


----------



## Chip Blasiole

If you are interested in doing PSA, I will tell you there is a lot of bad training out there. A main problem is clubs training for the short run and not considering how doing so will cause problems at the higher levels. The sport requires a lot of control and like other protection sports, it is being made softer with poorer training of decoys who can’t catch a dog or be creative in trying to fail your dog, which used to be part of the challenge of the sport.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> If you are interested in doing PSA, I will tell you there is a lot of bad training out there. A main problem is clubs training for the short run and not considering how doing so will cause problems at the higher levels. The sport requires a lot of control and like other protection sports, it is being made softer with poorer training of decoys who can’t catch a dog or be creative in trying to fail your dog, which used to be part of the challenge of the sport.


Thank you Chip. I will be really selective if I get into PSA with him. I am friends with couple legit decoys that work in clubs around here.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Brother Max says hey.
> 
> His ears are still in Flying Nun stage.😂
> View attachment 560864


Hey Max! It was great to meet you guys! I hope you had a safe trip.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> He doesn't sound challenging enough for you. You send him to me and I will send the Mals to you for awhile.


Hahaha... I thought about a mal for about 10 minutes, but the wife couldn't deal. Honestly, it was vanity driving the thought. They are flashy! I then thought about what I really want to do with this dog and it made sense to get a GSD. Then I found out I could get a Carmspack puppy out of Gus and there was no looking back.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Hahaha... I thought about a mal for about 10 minutes, but the wife couldn't deal. Honestly, it was vanity driving the thought. They are flashy! I then thought about what I really want to do with this dog and it made sense to get a GSD. Then I found out I could get a Carmspack puppy out of Gus and there was no looking back.


I thought the Mals would be more difficult but they are quite biddable, especially the female.


----------



## Rionel

David Winners said:


> More current pic. I love his mask!
> View attachment 560697


OK, I'm totally envious : ) What a serious look on that little face!


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I thought the Mals would be more difficult but they are quite biddable, especially the female.


Oh they are easy to train. Usually pretty soft unless in drive. They can just be challenging to live with.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Oh they are easy to train. Usually pretty soft unless in drive. They can just be challenging to live with.


That's what I am finding. Not what I expected at all.


----------



## David Winners

Rionel said:


> OK, I'm totally envious : ) What a serious look on that little face!


He is a serious dog for sure. He's not going to be flashy, but whatever he does, he means it.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's what I am finding. Not what I expected at all.


You can't really understand Mals until you train some. You watch videos of them in drive and you have an opinion, but that's not reality. Most of them are really sweet. Most of them have a small screw lose, meaning a particular quirk that isn't a show stopper but it's a challenge. If you are used to a pushy GSD, most Mals are easy if you accept their nuttiness.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> You can't really understand Mals until you train some. You watch videos of them in drive and you have an opinion, but that's not reality. Most of them are really sweet. Most of them have a small screw lose, meaning a particular quirk that isn't a show stopper but it's a challenge. If you are used to a pushy GSD, most Mals are easy if you accept their nuttiness.


So far I am finding them easier but they are young yet and Covid-19 is putting a damper on getting them out there. But they both are sweet and comical.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So far I am finding them easier but they are young yet and Covid-19 is putting a damper on getting them out there. But they both are sweet and comical.
> 
> View attachment 560874
> View attachment 560875


The derp is strong in this one


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> The derp is strong in this one


  You got him pegged!


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You got him pegged!


He needs a derptastic trick, like a running front somersault.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> He needs a derptastic trick, like a running front somersault.


Imma send him to you and you can teach him that!


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Imma send him to you and you can teach him that!


Challenge accepted


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Challenge accepted


Don't be surprised when he shows up on your door step with his best derp face on!


----------



## tysco

I've been hoping to find a sibling! Here is Reya (red girl) from the same litter.


----------



## Sunflowers

There is also Max 😍 who belongs to a friend of mine.


----------



## David Winners

What a cutie! Sure looks a lot like Valor


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> There is also Max 😍 who belongs to a friend of mine.
> View attachment 561173
> 
> View attachment 561174
> View attachment 561176


Ears up! Yay!!!


----------



## Saphire

I sooooo look forward to watching my boys pups grow up!


----------



## Saphire

tysco said:


> I've been hoping to find a sibling! Here is Reya (red girl) from the same litter.
> 
> View attachment 561170
> View attachment 561167


she’s gorgeous just like her dad!


----------



## David Winners




----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Nice shots and look at those ears!


----------



## David Winners

We spend an hour every evening just chilling in the front yard watching the world go by (and pouncing on bugs). A neighbor dog was making a fuss and Valor didn't approve.


----------



## David Winners

It was 2.5 hours tonight.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

You pouncing on bugs? I'd pay to see that.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You pouncing on bugs? I'd pay to see that.


It's tough getting the exoskeleton out from between the teeth, but it's worth it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> It's tough getting the exoskeleton out from between the teeth, but it's worth it.


I have had a lot of luck with these: 🤪








BOODA Fresh N Floss Spearmint 2-Knot Rope Dog Toy, X-Large - Chewy.com


Buy Booda Fresh N Floss Spearmint 2-Knot Rope Dog Toy, X-Large at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




www.chewy.com


----------



## Shadow Shep

What a cute puppy!!


----------



## David Winners

Still working out the proper angle on the camera.

This is just a little playing around this evening. Pardon the construction. Still finishing up the garden and playhouse.


----------



## Sabis mom

David! He is a dream! What a good boy. 
I love the attentiveness and he is so good trading for his ball. 
I especially love that you wrestle with him and let him be a dog. 
BTW, yard looks great and Shadow and I are jealous.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> David! He is a dream! What a good boy.
> I love the attentiveness and he is so good trading for his ball.
> I especially love that you wrestle with him and let him be a dog.
> BTW, yard looks great and Shadow and I are jealous.


Thanks!

He is very attentive. He's confident enough to get some distance but he's always checking in. Something I like to see. He's doing great off leash. We head to the park or reservoir every morning when it's cool to get in some quality exercise and informal training.

I really love off leash adventures. It reinforces engagement and recall. It helps them learn to keep track of you and gain independence at the same time. I'm a huge proponent of Stonnie Dennis and his training style. I use a couple playgrounds that are close to me as small challenge and exercise courses. I also use those times to evaluate his temperament when exposed to different things we may come across.
Just laying foundation for life. Any activities that we decide to engage in will benefit from this type of training. Follow me and cool stuff happens.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Thanks!
> 
> He is very attentive. He's confident enough to get some distance but he's always checking in. Something I like to see. He's doing great off leash. We head to the park or reservoir every morning when it's cool to get in some quality exercise and informal training.
> 
> I really love off leash adventures. It reinforces engagement and recall. It helps them learn to keep track of you and gain independence at the same time. I'm a huge proponent of Stonnie Dennis and his training style. I use a couple playgrounds that are close to me as small challenge and exercise courses. I also use those times to evaluate his temperament when exposed to different things we may come across.
> Just laying foundation for life. Any activities that we decide to engage in will benefit from this type of training. Follow me and cool stuff happens.
> 
> View attachment 561307


Dave, thanks for posting this. They should make a sticky out of your thread. This is how you raise and train a pup to take advantage of puppy development and avoid creating problems.


----------



## David Winners

I have always advocated working with the dog instead of trying to extinguish bad behaviors through punishment. If you look at what the dog is showing you, what it likes and wants to do, and combine that with the natural tendencies of a puppy, it makes "training" pretty fun and easy, providing that you like the same things as the dog. It requires a dedication of time, but it's time well spent. 5-6 hours a day over the next year will enable us to live together comfortably for a lifetime. 

There is the reason I waited 9 years to get a pup. You only get one shot at those critical periods of learning. I can spend my time developing a relationship and encouraging good behavior instead of trying to fix problems. This offers great freedom in training opportunities and allows us to just take whatever each day brings. No need to get any number of reps in or concentrate on a specific task that the puppy may or may not want to do right now. 

I know it will all come. It's so different than fixing problems, which is most of my dog training life. I'm always against a schedule because time is money and people want it easy. No need for all that with Valor. Baby steps at his pace in the right direction will end up where we want to go. I get to really observe how my actions and decisions effect his behavior the following day, and if I screwed up, take a step back or slow down.

Love everything about it.


----------



## Katsugsd

tysco said:


> I've been hoping to find a sibling! Here is Reya (red girl) from the same litter.
> 
> View attachment 561170
> View attachment 561167


Goodness, the head on that girl!  I'm in love!

Edit: Found it! 

Congratulations to all the new owners!


----------



## David Winners

Pond and woods fun


----------



## David Winners




----------



## Sabis mom

I am so in love with that boy! You two are going to have a lot of fun together.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

He got an independent streak. He might make you have to work for it.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> He got an independent streak. He might make you have to work for it.


I know right! I mean, when you go through more poop bags than treats, you know you're in for a rough ride


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> I know right! I mean, when you go through more poop bags than treats, you know you're in for a rough ride


Do that with triplets and get back to me on that one. 😁


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do that with triplets and get back to me on that one. 😁
> 
> View attachment 561444


Oh yes! That increases the difficulty just a smidge


----------



## David Winners

OK, so I have had Valor for 2 full weeks now. He will be 12 weeks old tomorrow. Now that we have gotten to know each other and I have seen him in many different situations, I would like to share my observations and thoughts about what those observations mean for the future.

I would also like to say that all the exposure work we have done is not training per say. I am not looking to work on anything when we walk into a store or watch a train go by. I am looking for his response. Yes, I will reward a good response with praise or food, but I'm not looking to shape anything here if something looks bad. I am specifically looking at temperament and resilience to see if there is work to be done.

I kind of hate the term socialization because it has come to mean "everybody pets my puppy and goes gaga and every strange dog is a learning opportunity" which I feel is a huge mistake. Therefore, I'm going to use the term exposure. That can be at quite some distance or up close, depending on the situation and how the pup is reacting. I guess the important thing here is to say that whenever possible, I let Valor make up his own mind about something new. I try my best to not get in the way so I can see what reality looks like and then address it later if necessary. I wouldn't talk him into approaching anything or carry him into a situation where he doesn't want to go. 

To be continued...


----------



## David Winners

I picked Valor, and his brother Max, up from the puppy courier and loaded them into crates in the back of my SUV with Captain, 18 month old joint custody GSD. We immediately drove 6 hours home. We stopped twice for potty and water breaks. Both dogs were clean and quiet in their crate. They both exhibited confidence on the breaks with both their environment and with Captain.

Homecoming was exciting of course. I haven't told Pam about having Max for a few hours until he got picked up and her shock at having 2 puppies was priceless 

Max exhibited more energy and a bit more prey drive than Valor. Max had done some toy/tug work for a couple days prior and Valor had not. They were both very confident in the new environment which included Captain, a 4yo male Cane Corso and a 15yo PB/Lab x. No problem with slick floors, loud noises, no toy or food aggression. Lots of good play.

The next few days were all about exposure and observation. The first day, I allowed people to meet the cute puppy and give him loving so I could see how he responded. After that, he only gets to interact with other people at my home. He is only crated when necessary. Just a few times for an hour or so over the last 2 weeks. He settles quickly and is clean and quiet in the crate.

To be continued...


----------



## David Winners

Edited to add: I do not recommend using my choices for your puppy. Every step along the way I was constantly monitoring Valor for stress and avoidance. If he had shown any signs of either, I would have backed off. This is not a checklist. I made the choices I did because of what the dog was showing me, not because I had some lofty goal set that I needed to achieve.

Over the first 2 days we visited 4 hardware stores, 2 pet stores, 3 bars, a restaurant, the vet office, 2 groomers, several friends, every park in town. We also spent as much time as possible out in the yard.

About 200 people a day walk or ride by our house. Most of them have a dog or 3. We live across the street from a nice park. All my neighbors have dogs. No one has a fence but they are good about training and management. Dogs at large are rare.

I have an underground fence and the adult dogs wear collars when out in the yard. They are non reactive to most dogs and people passing by. The e-fence is just there to keep them honest. If a passer by gets vocal, the dogs just check them out a bit and then return to us.

Captain is fantastic off leash, has a bomb proof recall, is a fetch machine and it's not reactive to, well, anything really. He's a good mentor.

Much of the yard activity for the first couple days was just laps around the house. I potty train using exercise. Pup wakes up and it's outside for some running. It gets things moving. It is also a great time to establish boundaries. All this is off leash. Treats and love for going potty. Treats and love for recalls. Valor watching Captain play fetch and doing OB for tug rewards.

Inside is some restrained play with the other dogs. I limit excitement levels to a low roar. Much sleeping, learning to use the dog door into the secure dog yard, figuring out schedules and locations for important stuff. A little bath tub exposure. Mostly saying thank you for good manners and learning the routine of our day.

Other outings of note are the shooting range, a couple big parks with ponds, my cousin's house/daycare who has chickens and 5 kids running around the pond, and an outdoor rock concert.

Just wanted to paint a picture of what type of exposure little Valor has had.

All that to tell you the following...


----------



## David Winners

This is the easiest pup ever. 

He is solid as a rock. Takes everything in stride. Train going by, that's cool. Loud drunk people, alert but just checked them out. Loud music, mower, garbage truck, 12 gauge shotgun, garbage disposal, chainsaw, barking dogs, baseball games, soccer practice, everywhere. He knocked over a metal folding chair. He ducked out of the way, turned around and went right back to check it out.

He's environmentally stable. Slick, hot, cold, muddy, stinky, rocky, tall grass, sticker bushes, nothing phases him. He will play on expanded metal playground equipment, going down slides on his own.

He fetches to hand naturally. He's not 100% and gets distracted or will stop short and lay down when tired. He will play fetch with a huge rope, a chunk of 2x4, a plastic lid from a container of screws, a sock with knots in it, anything.

He will go with me anywhere off leash. He usually goes a little out front of me and checks in to see which way we are headed. His recall is about 90%. I treat every recall and will for quite some time. 

Luring to positions is going very well. He's a quick learner and really aims to please. He will walk away from a bowl of food on the ground if I walk away. I'm getting that laser focus eye contact without really working on it. 

He sleeps through the night in bed with me. He's usually touching my leg or snuggled up under my arm. He gives kisses. We wrestle hard and he learned to not bite me in the face. The only corrections he's gotten are for biting too hard or biting my face. He's learned from them and taken them in stride.

He has been fantastic with kids. He responds well to my 10 yo granddaughter. He was super gentle with my 8 month old grandson right after playing rough and tumble with Captain. We had a 10 yo blind Chihuahua here 2 days ago. He checked her out and gave her kisses, then jumped on the 2 yo Golden that was visiting as well. He is gentle with my senior dog.

His nose is always on the ground when he's not engaged. Can't wait to do Nosework and tracking.

He is not a social butterfly. He's already aloof towards strangers, even in the house. He is friendly to them, but could care less if he meets them or not. He is alert to noises at night and will bark and investigate sounds in the house. He moves towards things.

I really, REALLY LOVE this dog.

I guess that about sums it up. If anyone has any questions or wants to see video of anything, let me know.


----------



## Sabis mom

@David Winners , it sounds like you have a keeper! 
It sounds very much like the approach I like with pups, except I crate at night or when they aren't supervised. For the first while. Depending on the dog. 
I am a bit curious about you not using a crate. Is there a reason behind it or just your preferred method?


----------



## Sunflowers

David, we will watch as many videos as you care to post... please . 🙂


----------



## David Winners

He is in a crate when unsupervised other than when sleeping. 8 have him with me at night because that's a big part of me having a dog. I have a lot of nightmares and they are much less frequent when I have a dog with me.

I'm just lucky in that my wife works from home, I have a 10yo granddaughter that lives with us Monday-Friday that loves puppy detail, and I own my own business so I can kind of work when it suits me through the day except for Thursdays and Fridays.


----------



## Sunflowers

I am thinking that’s how they do it in the military, the dog sleeps with his handler. And then, it becomes part of how you own a dog.
It stinks that you still have nightmares. But it sure is wonderful to hear that a dog helps.


----------



## Sabis mom

Got it. Thanks for responding. I guess I was dealing with a ton of rescues, or raising patrol dogs who may or may not go on to be kennel dogs. Sabs slept on my bed from day one and so did Shadow. I do think it creates a different bond when they sleep with you. Won't say better, to each their own, but different.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I am thinking that’s how they do it in the military, the dog sleeps with his handler. And then, it becomes part of how you own a dog.
> It stinks that you still have nightmares. But it sure is wonderful to hear that a dog helps.


Most military dogs sleep in the kennel. We were different than the MPs as we were stationed out with the trooops, so Fama always slept with me.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Most military dogs sleep in the kennel. We were different than the MPs as we were stationed out with the trooops, so Fama always slept with me.


I can't sleep without a dog. The only time I relax enough to close my eyes is when I have a dog next to me. When Sabi got too weak to get on the bed with me, I slept on the floor with her.


----------



## Heartandsoul

David Winners said:


> This is the easiest pup ever.
> 
> He is solid as a rock. Takes everything in stride. Train going by, that's cool. Loud drunk people, alert but just checked them out. Loud music, mower, garbage truck, 12 gauge shotgun, garbage disposal, chainsaw, barking dogs, baseball games, soccer practice, everywhere. He knocked over a metal folding chair. He ducked out of the way, turned around and went right back to check it out.
> 
> He's environmentally stable. Slick, hot, cold, muddy, stinky, rocky, tall grass, sticker bushes, nothing phases him. He will play on expanded metal playground equipment, going down slides on his own.
> 
> He fetches to hand naturally. He's not 100% and gets distracted or will stop short and lay down when tired. He will play fetch with a huge rope, a chunk of 2x4, a plastic lid from a container of screws, a sock with knots in it, anything.
> 
> He will go with me anywhere off leash. He usually goes a little out front of me and checks in to see which way we are headed. His recall is about 90%. I treat every recall and will for quite some time.
> 
> Luring to positions is going very well. He's a quick learner and really aims to please. He will walk away from a bowl of food on the ground if I walk away. I'm getting that laser focus eye contact without really working on it.
> 
> He sleeps through the night in bed with me. He's usually touching my leg or snuggled up under my arm. He gives kisses. We wrestle hard and he learned to not bite me in the face. The only corrections he's gotten are for biting too hard or biting my face. He's learned from them and taken them in stride.
> 
> He has been fantastic with kids. He responds well to my 10 yo granddaughter. He was super gentle with my 8 month old grandson right after playing rough and tumble with Captain. We had a 10 yo blind Chihuahua here 2 days ago. He checked her out and gave her kisses, then jumped on the 2 yo Golden that was visiting as well. He is gentle with my senior dog.
> 
> His nose is always on the ground when he's not engaged. Can't wait to do Nosework and tracking.
> 
> He is not a social butterfly. He's already aloof towards strangers, even in the house. He is friendly to them, but could care less if he meets them or not. He is alert to noises at night and will bark and investigate sounds in the house. He moves towards things.
> 
> I really, REALLY LOVE this dog.
> 
> I guess that about sums it up. If anyone has any questions or wants to see video of anything, let me know.


Genetically encoded intelligent discernment is what I thought of as I was reading this post. If there is such a thing, he has it  I loved how he took a curious sniff of the people on the bridge but then followed after you. Loved that you just kept walking and allowed him to make the choice also loved that the people didn’t seem to try to engage him.


----------



## Sunflowers

I foresee an overwhelming demand for Gus puppies.
I know I want one, but I might have to wait for Max puppies. 

Dogs like this shine a bright light on what a German Shepherd is actually supposed to be. Carmen has been on this board for years, talking about this, and now we actually get to see it for ourselves. If a picture is worth 1000 words, the video is worth a million.


----------



## David Winners

Heartandsoul said:


> Genetically encoded intelligent discernment is what I thought of as I was reading this post. If there is such a thing, he has it  I loved how he took a curious sniff of the people on the bridge but then followed after you. Loved that you just kept walking and allowed him to make the choice also loved that the people didn’t seem to try to engage him.


Absolutely. Genetic obedience. Herding lines. Not bred for over the top prey drive. Bred to work in conjunction with the handler, whatever that work may be.


----------



## David Winners

I edited my post above but I would like to clarify some things here for others that may be getting a new puppy and reading this.

This is not driven by goals or some checklist. Every step along the way, Valor was monitored closely for stress or avoidance. Had I see any sign of either, we would have backed off immediately. This wasn't en exercise in forcing the puppy to accept things or situations. It was not flooding. If you can't accurately define and recognize stress in a puppy, have someone help you do these kinds of activities. 

At no time did I have any expectation of how these adventures would go. I simply observed and recorded what Valor was showing me at the time. He was very happy to go along with everything. He got plenty of rest in between adventures. He got plenty of exercise before heading out to burn off that initial excitement after a nap.

The benefits of all these activities would have been immediately turned into liabilities had I forced Valor into accepting a situation in which he was uncomfortable. As in all training, let the dog in front of you dictate your strategy and goals. Challenge them with things in which they can succeed and have fun.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I foresee an overwhelming demand for Gus puppies.
> I know I want one, but I might have to wait for Max puppies.
> 
> Dogs like this shine a bright light on what a German Shepherd is actually supposed to be. Carmen has been on this board for years, talking about this, and now we actually get to see it for ourselves. If a picture is worth 1000 words, the video is worth a million.


While I have the utmost adoration for Gus, I think this is the combination of Gus and Ellie Mae. I had a very experienced and knowledgeable herding trainer with loads of GSD experience tell me that Ellie is the strongest herding lines bitch she has ever seen.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about GSD genetics or lines.

After getting to know Carmen over the last decade, I was bound and determined to get a CarmsPack pup. I wanted to see this genetic obedience for myself. I have seen it in good field labs before. I had one. Valor is like that lab. Ready for whatever as long as I'm there leading the way. Tresa said velcro dog, but that's not really it. He will certainly get away from me and off to his own devices if I'm not actively engaged with him. He will sit 75 feet away from me in the yard observing dogs walking by. One peep from me and he's rocketing to me.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Absolutely. Genetic obedience. Herding lines. Not bred for over the top prey drive. Bred to work in conjunction with the handler, whatever that work may be.


Who knows where I will be in ten years when these dogs are gone but if I do decide to add a GSD at that time, I already know that if there is a next one, it will be from strong herding lines.


----------



## Sabis mom

I keep trying to tell people that all these traits we desire and need come from herding. The loss of these herding genetics while irreparably change the breed.
David we need more pics and videos. 
Psst, I'm in love with your pup.


----------



## David Winners

More videos are in the works 

Psst... me too


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> While I have the utmost adoration for Gus, I think this is the combination of Gus and Ellie Mae. I had a very experienced and knowledgeable herding trainer with loads of GSD experience tell me that Ellie is the strongest herding lines bitch she has ever seen.


Absolutely. The right female is crucial. This is a perfect example of knowing how to read a pedigree and knowing what to look for in order to get the right outcome.

Gus was just bred to another female, Jadzea. It will be very interesting to see how this litter turns out. I am told that these pups will be higher drive.





__





Upcoming Litters :: Fraserglen Kennels







fraserglenkennels.com


----------



## David Winners

I am interested in how Valor will develop in the 12-24 month range. I think he will be a serious dog that likes the fight, not the dog that wants the sleeve.


----------



## Bearshandler

It is interesting reading about your pup. There’s some pretty big differences in personality between yours and mine. It will make an interesting comparison for how they develop.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> It is interesting reading about your pup. There’s some pretty big differences in personality between yours and mine. It will make an interesting comparison for how they develop.


Would you care to expound on the differences? What is your training and exercise schedule like?


----------



## Sabis mom

Sunflowers said:


> Absolutely. The right female is crucial. This is a perfect example of knowing how to read a pedigree and knowing what to look for in order to get the right outcome.
> 
> Gus was just bred to another female, Jadzea. It will be very interesting to see how this litter turns out. I am told that these pups will be higher drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upcoming Litters :: Fraserglen Kennels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fraserglenkennels.com


Be interesting as well to see what Ellie Mae produces with Nog.
This could be a fascinating study in genetics!


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Would you care to expound on the differences? What is your training and exercise schedule like?


He’s a lot more social than your pup. He’s a lot more interested in greeting and interacting with people he meets. He will explore and set out if we sit in one place long enough, but most of the time he’s our he’s focused on me more than the environment. Doesn’t stray too far, and looks to initiate play if we stop. He’s very people oriented. He shows interest in meeting and playing with other dogs he sees and is allowed to meet. Not anymore than you’d expect from a young dog with confidence, but outgoing none the less. He can be pushy and hasnt been fazed by warnings and corrections. He doesn’t get to greet unknown dogs, but has interactions with the ones I know. He has a similar set of nerves, doesn’t come undone from things around him. I live in a downtown area, so there’s plenty of stimulus whenever he’s outside. He takes well to city or more open areas. My work schedule wasn’t heavy before COVID, and I’ve gone to working on call from home since. He gets three or four walks spaced through the day, the first one being with my other dog. Around midday we go out and train in the park, right now just basic positions and recalls. We’ll have an evening session inside usually. I keep the sessions short and end with free play. He’s big on fetch, tug and wrestling. I change the environments we train in often from the beginning. He picks up fast and works for food and toys. The biggest difference I see though is the socialness. He has shown some suspicion uncertain situations and may grow into a serious guy, I think he has more of the sport dog temperament people think of.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> He’s a lot more social than your pup. He’s a lot more interested in greeting and interacting with people he meets. He will explore and set out if we sit in one place long enough, but most of the time he’s our he’s focused on me more than the environment. Doesn’t stray too far, and looks to initiate play if we stop. He’s very people oriented. He shows interest in meeting and playing with other dogs he sees and is allowed to meet. Not anymore than you’d expect from a young dog with confidence, but outgoing none the less. He can be pushy and hasnt been fazed by warnings and corrections. He doesn’t get to greet unknown dogs, but has interactions with the ones I know. He has a similar set of nerves, doesn’t come undone from things around him. I live in a downtown area, so there’s plenty of stimulus whenever he’s outside. He takes well to city or more open areas. My work schedule wasn’t heavy before COVID, and I’ve gone to working on call from home since. He gets three or four walks spaced through the day, the first one being with my other dog. Around midday we go out and train in the park, right now just basic positions and recalls. We’ll have an evening session inside usually. I keep the sessions short and end with free play. He’s big on fetch, tug and wrestling. I change the environments we train in often from the beginning. He picks up fast and works for food and toys. The biggest difference I see though is the socialness. He has shown some suspicion uncertain situations and may grow into a serious guy, I think he has more of the sport dog temperament people think of.


This sounds pretty normal and I think you are handling things well. In my limited experience, most male GSD pups are pretty social and become more aloof as they mature.

I don't allow interaction with strange dogs. I only allow interaction with other dogs at my house, with the exception of Captain who is family and a great mentor dog.

Your plan sounds good to me. How old is he?


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> This sounds pretty normal and I think you are handling things well. In my limited experience, most male GSD pups are pretty social and become more aloof as they mature.
> 
> I don't allow interaction with strange dogs. I only allow interaction with other dogs at my house, with the exception of Captain who is family and a great mentor dog.
> 
> Your plan sounds good to me. How old is he?


He’s 4 1/2 months. I’m pretty happy with him so far. I got the dog I asked for and he is everything she said he was, so the rest is on me.


----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> I edited my post above but I would like to clarify some things here for others that may be getting a new puppy and reading this.
> 
> This is not driven by goals or some checklist. Every step along the way, Valor was monitored closely for stress or avoidance. Had I see any sign of either, we would have backed off immediately. This wasn't en exercise in forcing the puppy to accept things or situations. It was not flooding. If you can't accurately define and recognize stress in a puppy, have someone help you do these kinds of activities.
> 
> At no time did I have any expectation of how these adventures would go. I simply observed and recorded what Valor was showing me at the time. He was very happy to go along with everything. He got plenty of rest in between adventures. He got plenty of exercise before heading out to burn off that initial excitement after a nap.
> 
> The benefits of all these activities would have been immediately turned into liabilities had I forced Valor into accepting a situation in which he was uncomfortable. As in all training, let the dog in front of you dictate your strategy and goals. Challenge them with things in which they can succeed and have fun.


From Carmen

Carmspack says.....

“David, thank you very much. Valor is a bullseye right on target representing a 40yr dedicated plan for exactly that type of dog.
Your plan is exactly what I do, what I have tried to put across for people to understand. As seen in the Early Socialization thread and the genetic obedience thread. When I select and take a dog out, it is not to condition them, it’s not to flood or change behaviours, it is only to observe their natural nerve stability and judgement. Their boldness, a trait sorely missing in the breed. Only by observing what the dog is naturally, do you know what you have genetically, which will be passed on through generations when these things are considered also from the breeding partner. No trait is masked by conditioning. As Valor matures and you give him more opportunities, you will come to understand what I have meant by genetic obedience. Oh, and by the way, how is his structure?.......Not bad eh!!“


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Saphire said:


> From Carmen
> 
> Carmspack says.....
> 
> “David, thank you very much. Valor is a bullseye right on target representing a 40yr dedicated plan for exactly that type of dog.
> Your plan is exactly what I do, what I have tried to put across for people to understand. As seen in the Early Socialization thread and the genetic obedience thread. When I select and take a dog out, it is not to condition them, it’s not to flood or change behaviours, it is only to observe their natural nerve stability and judgement. Their boldness, a trait sorely missing in the breed. Only by observing what the dog is naturally, do you know what you have genetically, which will be passed on through generations when these things are considered also from the breeding partner. No trait is masked by conditioning. As Valor matures and you give him more opportunities, you will come to understand what I have meant by genetic obedience. Oh, and by the way, how is his structure?.......Not bad eh!!“


This should be posted in the Perlich thread too. I always raise a pup with an eye for what a pup brings to the table, what will pass on genetically, not what I can accomplish with smoke and mirrors.


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> From Carmen
> 
> Carmspack says.....
> 
> “David, thank you very much. Valor is a bullseye right on target representing a 40yr dedicated plan for exactly that type of dog.
> Your plan is exactly what I do, what I have tried to put across for people to understand. As seen in the Early Socialization thread and the genetic obedience thread. When I select and take a dog out, it is not to condition them, it’s not to flood or change behaviours, it is only to observe their natural nerve stability and judgement. Their boldness, a trait sorely missing in the breed. Only by observing what the dog is naturally, do you know what you have genetically, which will be passed on through generations when these things are considered also from the breeding partner. No trait is masked by conditioning. As Valor matures and you give him more opportunities, you will come to understand what I have meant by genetic obedience. Oh, and by the way, how is his structure?.......Not bad eh!!“


Thank you so much for such an amazing animal Carmen. Your hard work and dedication is not lost on me.

I didn't comment on structure because I am no expert in this area. He is moving extremely well. He has a lot of bone. Front legs and feet are large. He is very sturdy. He's been stepped on, bowled over, corrected by humans and dogs, fallen off the bed, slid off a moving Merry go round... Nothing more than a slight yelp and shake it off. He is very athletic. 

He is becoming well muscled already. He's an easy keeper. He self regulates. He will share a bowl with another dog, kid, me, whatever. 

He's beautiful and perfect.


----------



## Sunflowers

It is so good to hear from Carmen again.
Thank you, Saphire. 
It would be great if you could do this more often, her voice here is sorely missed.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This should be posted in the Perlich thread too. I always raise a pup with an eye for what a pup brings to the table, what will pass on genetically, not what I can accomplish with smoke and mirrors.


It's a heck of a lot easier to get the dog that naturally does what you want instead of trying to change the dog. If it ain't broke, there's no need for fixin'


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> It's a heck of a lot easier to get the dog that naturally does what you want instead of trying to change the dog. If it ain't broke, there's no need for fixin'


I actually like a lot of what I have in these dogs now but I have no need for misdirected prey drive even though I always take a pass on the highest prey drive pups in a litter. I believe that by looking for a more appropriately focused prey drive like I see in the little Heeler will have huge benefits for me but I fear that I will be trading off a lot of other qualities. Then again I will be older when I make that decision and maybe the traits I love now just won't be suited to my lifestyle in the future.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I actually like a lot of what I have in these dogs now but I have no need for misdirected prey drive even though I always take a pass on the highest prey drive pups in a litter. I believe that by looking for a more appropriately focused prey drive like I see in the little Heeler will have huge benefits for me but I fear that I will be trading off a lot of other qualities. Then again I will be older when I make that decision and maybe the traits I love now just won't be suited to my lifestyle in the future.


Knowing what you ACTUALLY want is half the battle LOL


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> It is so good to hear from Carmen again.
> Thank you, Saphire.
> It would be great if you could do this more often, her voice here is sorely missed.


I will continue to post her dictations. 🙂


----------



## David Winners




----------



## Jenny720

A very cute pup! Having Max and Luna as pups in the middle of winter it was all about hibernating and occasional aspirations to be sled pups as the ground was often covered in ice and snow lol! The summer time is the best time to have a pup so much fun to have. Enjoy him!


----------



## Sabis mom

Puppies in clover always cute.
I love his eyebrows. He looks like he is thinking hard.


----------



## David Winners

From another thread, but I think it is applicable here. We were speaking about off leash training.
................
I've been thinking ahead and I have an idea for training leash pressure without aversives. I'm a prong collar trainer for leash work, a la Tyler Muto, and I think I can convey the same message on a flat collar using +R and -P once he is tugging really well.

We are working on his mechanics now, doing hind end movement on a perch, tuck sits, kick back stands, rear folding down, engagement, short retrieve sessions (3-4 reps), a little rag work and wrestling.

All easy going. Light work. Short sessions then free play. It's cool how 5 fun reps can sink in. The next session shows how much he retained. Overnight is even more dramatic.


----------



## Sunflowers

Would love to see videos of these sessions, if you have time.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Would love to see videos of these sessions, if you have time.


I have to get into the habit of just taking the camera with me. I don't walk out the door planning on a session. It depends on how Valor is acting once we got out there. If he's focusing on his nose and chasing down bugs, then we just do some laps around the house and reward recalls and stuff. If he's focused on me and wanting to interact, then we will do some food work.


----------



## David Winners

Ok. I got video of a positions session. I stepped on his tail half way through and he persevered.

Comments welcome!


----------



## David Winners

I need to adjust my down lure position. He's coming forward on the down. I love watching myself on video. I see my mistakes lol.


----------



## Sabis mom

I cannot believe how quickly he is growing! I think more people should watch these videos just to show what training a young pup should look like.
I love his willingness and watching him work stuff out so he does it right for you. 
And stop stepping on his tail you big meanie!


----------



## Sabis mom

I use the L lure on down. I find it stops that forward creep. Straight down from the nose to the ground and then out.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

By the time you get through with him, he's going to look like a beaver if things don't change. 😁


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> By the time you get through with him, he's going to look like a beaver if things don't change. 😁


That's the plan. It will make dock diving easier.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> That's the plan. It will make dock diving easier.


Let him rub elbows with a few Salukis and then try him out on snorkeling!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The salient behavior I see is your pup’s desire to engage with. That will make training so much more fun.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> The salient behavior I see is your pup’s desire to engage with. That will make training so much more fun.


That is really sticking out to me as well. He's a blast. Can't wait until we get into real tug rewards.


----------



## David Winners

Here's Valor in the front yard tonight. He's so stable. I like this reaction. Interested and watching but not threatened, nervous or excited.


----------



## Sabis mom

What a good boy! I love that little head tilt at the end right before he comes to you. 
I thought he was going to go investigate those kids then he just sat back down.


----------



## David Winners

Obstacle course introduction. He has been up the ramp, but not at that steep an angle.


----------



## LuvShepherds

What do you use for treats and do you work him before a meal? My dog was never very food motivated, so I used toys, but treats are easier and faster.


----------



## David Winners

It was 9 hours since breakfast.

I use a mixture of chicken, dehydrated beef, dehydrated liver, cheese, sometimes good hot dogs.

It's more about having fun with me than whatever food reward he's getting.


----------



## Sabis mom

David, watch that video! Near the beginning you jump into and then out of the box and so does he!
So cute.
He clearly has no issues following you and I like seeing how when he struggles you back off and go back to where he is comfortable. I think that is important for confidence and trust. It's something a lot of people miss. There is a balance between letting them try and beating down the confidence.

Edit: Since the tires seem to stump him would you consider laying them in a single level on the ground for him to climb around on and in before stacking them?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Stonnie Dennis move over! 😁


----------



## Damicodric

David.

Continued success and best of luck w him.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> David, watch that video! Near the beginning you jump into and then out of the box and so does he!
> So cute.
> He clearly has no issues following you and I like seeing how when he struggles you back off and go back to where he is comfortable. I think that is important for confidence and trust. It's something a lot of people miss. There is a balance between letting them try and beating down the confidence.
> 
> Edit: Since the tires seem to stump him would you consider laying them in a single level on the ground for him to climb around on and in before stacking them?


I don't see it as struggling with the tires at all. Its new to him. He went further than I thought he would on day 1. I'd call that success.

He will conquer the tires. It's just a matter of time. I see no need to make it easier. 

He's just getting used to things right now. We will start some formal stuff here in a couple weeks. I'm going to imprint him on Nosework odors hopefully tomorrow, if my helper is available. We're just setting foundation blocks that will support training. 

Just fun. No pressure. It's ok to fail as long as you try. No hurry.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Stonnie Dennis move over! 😁


Hahaha... Very not hardly


----------



## David Winners

Damicodric said:


> David.
> 
> Continued success and best of luck w him.


Thank you! I really appreciate it.


----------



## Sabis mom

I thought he was doing great! I just noted that he seemed to be I guess not struggling but trying to figure the tires out. I know they are hard for me to climb on, lol. I just was having thoughts. He is such an impressive little man.


----------



## Damicodric

I was going to say Winners’ Got A Winner, but that was a little too corny .... and easy.

Regardiess,

👍🏽


----------



## David Winners

Damicodric said:


> I was going to say Winners’ Got A Winner, but that was a little too corny .... and easy.
> 
> Regardiess,
> 
> 👍🏽


I feel like I hit the puppy lottery.


----------



## dogfaeries

That is a seriously fun puppy. Can’t wait to see him as he grows up.


----------



## Shadow Shep

dogfaeries said:


> That is a seriously fun puppy. Can’t wait to see him as he grows up.


That's just what I was thinking!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The video of him calmly watching the kids playing supports what I would consider genetic obedience. He is just watching and checking things out and not reacting. He instinctively seems to know what his turf and role is. My guess is that my pup at that age would have charged across the street and be very animated. Based on that snapshot, it would seem your pup would likely excel at focused tasks rather than precision sport, while any protection training could likely be successful if more PP oriented. Very nice pup. It goes back to the saying the dog is good but good for what?


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> The video of him calmly watching the kids playing supports what I would consider genetic obedience. He is just watching and checking things out and not reacting. He instinctively seems to know what his turf and role is. My guess is that my pup at that age would have charged across the street and be very animated. Based on that snapshot, it would seem your pup would likely excel at focused tasks rather than precision sport, while any protection training could likely be successful if more PP oriented. Very nice pup. It goes back to the saying the dog is good but good for what?


I agree with your assessment 100% and have said as much from our beginning together. He's not going to be flashy, but he's going to mean whatever he does.

Our daily life together supports this as well. The thing he gets must excited about is me. Not a particular toy or treat. His strongest drive us to work with me. If that includes a toy, that's great! If I quit the activity, the toy is no longer important. Definitely a PP candidate.

He's also nose crazy. Deep in the grass. Following and finding things.

He is possessive of things with the other dogs and people but not me at all. He will tug well but doesn't get frustrated when I take the toy. Just excited to go again.

We did 8 50 foot retrieves last night, right to hand on all but 1.

Watching him develop is so interesting.

ETA: yes, definitely good for what? I'm luckily in a position to do whatever he's good at. Sport or PP or Nosework, herding or whatever. I'm not trying to fit the dog to the job. He will have a solid foundation to build on and then we will go from there.


----------



## Pistol Pete

David Winners said:


> My sweet boy is home
> View attachment 560856


 This picture warms my heart!


----------



## David Winners

One tired puppy. 4 miles hike with intermittent swimming and romps through the woods. All off leash. 

Practiced recalls and a little hunt/fetch in some tall grass. 

We had a blast today!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

That's the way to do it. I bet he won't be practicing bad behaviors tonight.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's the way to do it. I bet he won't be practicing bad behaviors tonight.


Great time for his first bath. He did great


----------



## Sunflowers

Max, last night, being Out-to-dinner pup.


----------



## David Winners

Engagement! Love it


----------



## David Winners

Here is a more formal obstacle course session. This is the second formal session he has had.


----------



## David Winners

So we went up to train with Chris Wild and the gang today. It was fantastic to meet a couple people in person after knowing them on the internet for a decade. I had always meant to get up there with Fama but we never made it. Totally my fault. I should have done this sooner. Such a fantastic group of dog people.

Anyways, I really enjoyed watching all the dogs work. I realized how different SCH bite work is from military training. Not in a bad way at all. Really good decoy work, appropriately tailored to each dog. Chris and Jane are fantastic at explaining things to a grunt.

Valor did well. He figured out the flirt pole game, stayed focused, and he was confident when challenged a little bit. He's better at this than I am.

Anyways, good times, good people, good lunch, good dogs. That sounds like a lot of wins to me.


----------



## Sunflowers

So good to “see” you so happy.
You very much deserve it.


----------



## Sabis mom

So nice when you get to be with people who have shared interests. Glad you had a good time.


----------



## David Winners

First flirt pole session.


----------



## Sabis mom

He did awesome! I spit my pop when he laid down. That's a total Sabi move. Lol.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> He did awesome! I spit my pop when he laid down. That's a total Sabi move. Lol.


The problem is that he's smart. 

I like Tim a lot. He did a nice job with him. Understands that he's not a prey monkey.


----------



## Sabis mom

Of course he's smart! And the smart ones keep us on our toes and force us to do better.


----------



## Bearshandler

He’s off to a pretty good start. I think he’ll do fine if this is the field you chose. I’d bet he he surprises you when you move him to a sleeve.


----------



## David Winners

That will be much later. He's comfortable and drive is there. He will be a late bloomer and will be very serious, so I see no need to build anything at this point. I'll tug with him, teach him how to play, strengthen his grip and build our relationship. 

I'm not trying to go to nationals with a flashy dog. Nothing against that at all, but I like brains and fight. It's just the kind of dog I prefer.


----------



## onyx'girl

It was great to finally meet you and your Gus pup! Valor was fun to watch. Tim works with pups with Valor's drives often so knows that it is harder to engage a more serious higher threshold pup than a prey monkey.


----------



## David Winners

onyx'girl said:


> It was great to finally meet you and your Gus pup! Valor was fun to watch. Tim works with pups with Valor's drives often so knows that it is harder to engage a more serious higher threshold pup than a prey monkey.


Yes! We both had a very good time and enjoyed meeting everyone. Such a nice group of dog people. Tim said as much when we were talking. 

I just put another nosework video up in the other thread. He's having fun with it.


----------



## David Winners

Uploading some video now. It's just a normal training day for us. I my cameraman is back in school, so I have a head worn camera on that doesn't offer the greatest angle, so you can't see a lot of what is going on close up, but I think the video shows what a normal training session looks like for us.

I'll try to remember to tip the camera down in the future.


----------



## David Winners

This is leash pressure and the start of our off leash park adventure. Sorry it's hard to see the leash pressure work. If anyone wants better video of this stuff, let me know and I will shoot a session with a stationary camera so you can see whats really going on.

I did have to repeat a recall in this video which is something new.


----------



## David Winners

Continuation. Off leash park walk with distractions, engagement and recall training.


----------



## Sabis mom

He just keeps getting better. Almost looks like a big dog already.
One question though, or maybe just a point. Did you have him off leash on the road?
He is so cute I have a hard time paying attention to anything other then the adorableness.


----------



## dogma13

In hindsight I should have seized more opportunities at practicing recalls when my puppies were into scampering after birds and butterflies.Face Palm!I always 'paid' them for engagement but taking it a step further would have been a better foundation.Excellent video!


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> He just keeps getting better. Almost looks like a big dog already.
> One question though, or maybe just a point. Did you have him off leash on the road?
> He is so cute I have a hard time paying attention to anything other then the adorableness.


Yes, he was off leash on the way to the park, in the road. I have good sight lines all 4 directions and knew it was clear.


----------



## David Winners

He continues to impress me. He's staying consistent in temperament. Engagement is very good. Very solid around distractions. Prey drive is growing slowly and is at a very useful level. We are beginning to use toy rewards in OB and backing off food rewards for fetch, using a marker and another throw instead.

Nosework is moving along. I only work it a couple times a week and he's retaining what he's learned. We will move much faster after he is on a ball reward for odor. I'm waiting for a little more physical endurance before switching him to a ball because searching is very physically demanding and I want it to stay super fun for him.

He is very physically capable. He moves with power and grace, for a pup. He jumps well and has great proprioception. 

His grip is calm and solid on leather, firehose and fleece. I'm not back tying him at all, just free flirt pole, tug and rag work. He will go limp and just hang on sometimes, which is funny. I'm not sure what that means as I'm not that familiar with puppy tug. 

Around the house he is a gem. He absolutely loves the wife and grandkids. He doesn't chew anything that's not his. Settles well as long as he's worked out regularly. Uses the dog door to go pee. Eats well. 

I do cursory physical examination and grooming training every day. He's done great at the vet. He's not crazy about nail trims but he's getting better. Baths are fine. 

Pretty much a perfect pup for me. As long as I put the work in, he gives me everything I could ask for.


----------



## David Winners

dogma13 said:


> In hindsight I should have seized more opportunities at practicing recalls when my puppies were into scampering after birds and butterflies.Face Palm!I always 'paid' them for engagement but taking it a step further would have been a better foundation.Excellent video!


I think that as I grow older and have more experience, I just tend to look for any opportunity (within reason) to reward the dog. I try and create those opportunities where he can be mildly challenged but still be successful. He blew off a recall in the first video. I'm going to walk over there now and see if I can tell what had his attention. 

As he goes through the teenager phase, freedoms may go away and stricter management may be necessary. We will see!


----------



## Heartandsoul

Valor looks great and what a good boy. If you have the time and inclination, I would like to see a better vid of your leash work. The only bit viewable was when he was sniffing next to a tree.


----------



## Kathrynil

Amazing puppy. I'm jealous.  I love watching his obedience training. He's so engaged and prompt. It's so nice to see how obedient and focused he is off-leash. Something I really missed out on with Kias, mostly because he didn't get the solid training that he needed from the start. 
Good luck with him! Thanks for posting all the videos!


----------



## David Winners

Heartandsoul said:


> Valor looks great and what a good boy. If you have the time and inclination, I would like to see a better vid of your leash work. The only bit viewable was when he was sniffing next to a tree.


I'll try and get one soon. He's learning fast so I need to get it shot while there is still training going on.

It's basically the McCann puppy leash pressure method if you want to see good videos on the training methods.


----------



## David Winners

Leash pressure video from this morning. I had to use a distraction, tossed food, as he responds instantly to leash pressure without any distraction. The basis of this training is just to teach him to move with the leash in any direction. This will get more precise later when we use leash pressure to create heeling positions, transition between heeling positions, front placement, contact heeling and a walk position. If you have any questions or want more video just let me know.

And yes, I rock the croks


----------



## Shadow Shep

@David Winners why don't you have your own TV show? It would be the best dog training show out there.

What are your thoughts on Ceasar Millan? And Victoria stilwell?


----------



## David Winners

Thanks!

I think their hearts are in the right places.


----------



## Springbrz

How do you manage to go to a park with all those kids and not have a single one run up and ask to pet the puppy? I find it interesting that Valor seems to have almost no interest in other people at his young age. I love that he already knows his way home too. Great video.


----------



## David Winners

Springbrz said:


> How do you manage to go to a park with all those kids and not have a single one run up and ask to pet the puppy? I find it interesting that Valor seems to have almost no interest in other people at his young age. I love that he already knows his way home too. Great video.


I'm a really nice guy, but I'm not sure that I look terribly inviting. People who don't know me tend to keep their distance. Plus I had a camera on my head.

Yes, he's naturally fairly aloof, plus I'm the coolest guy ever  

J/K... I'm a dork.


----------



## Shadow Shep

What would be some of your advice for novice dog trainers?


----------



## David Winners

Shadow Shep said:


> What would be some of your advice for novice dog trainers?


Spend time and money on education. Read books. Watch videos. Attend seminars. Volunteer at a shelter.

Don't discount other types of trainers. For example, watching good trick trainers can help you understand clicker training and how to combine shaping and luring to raise criteria and develop behaviors.

Put the work in. The more you train the better you get at it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> I'm a really nice guy, but I'm not sure that I look terribly inviting. People who don't know me tend to keep their distance. Plus I had a camera on my head.
> 
> Yes, he's naturally fairly aloof, plus I'm the coolest guy ever
> 
> J/K... I'm a dork.


What kind of a camera set up are you using?


----------



## Heartandsoul

Thanks for posting a clearer vid. Me and my guy have entered our golden years but we still learn new stuff. I tend to talk it up with my guy and I really like how quiet you are with Valor And letting your movements talk to him using a little bit of noise.

I do use leash pressure but never got it exactly right so we have a different version.

Had to smile at your offer of more vids because the answer to that is always going to be a “yes please” lol.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What kind of a camera set up are you using?


A GoPro knockoff with a bunch of mounting accessories.


----------



## David Winners

Heartandsoul said:


> Thanks for posting a clearer vid. Me and my guy have entered our golden years but we still learn new stuff. I tend to talk it up with my guy and I really like how quiet you are with Valor And letting your movements talk to him using a little bit of noise.
> 
> I do use leash pressure but never got it exactly right so we have a different version.
> 
> Had to smile at your offer of more vids because the answer to that is always going to be a “yes please” lol.


I think people talk to their dogs WAY too much. It just becomes white noise. When I say something, I want his attention. I don't want him figuring out if I'm asking for a behavior or just running my trap again.

ETA: dogs don't speak words. They communicate with body language. I find it more efficient to do my best to use my body language to affect the dog. If I am consistent, it removes much of the necessity for commands in daily life.


----------



## Bearshandler

I don't talk to my dogs to often in daily life unless they are getting some loving or we are playing. In training I frequently use a continuation marker, for proper focus during a heel for example. Its something I try to phase out pretty quickly though. Overall in training, if I talk its a command, release/ reward marker, continuation marker, or a negative marker. I don't believe in using words in training that don't have meaning. I think to think my dogs have great situational awareness. They immediately go to their kennels when I get ready for work in the morning. I guess I don't use commands too often in my daily life either.


----------



## Shadow Shep

David Winners said:


> Spend time and money on education. Read books. Watch videos. Attend seminars. Volunteer at a shelter.
> 
> Don't discount other types of trainers. For example, watching good trick trainers can help you understand clicker training and how to combine shaping and luring to raise criteria and develop behaviors.
> 
> Put the work in. The more you train the better you get at it.


Thank you, @David Winners.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I think people talk to their dogs WAY too much. It just becomes white noise. When I say something, I want his attention. I don't want him figuring out if I'm asking for a behavior or just running my trap again.
> 
> ETA: dogs don't speak words. They communicate with body language. I find it more efficient to do my best to use my body language to affect the dog. If I am consistent, it removes much of the necessity for commands in daily life.


I am so guilty of this! Lol.
I know I need to shut my trap, but I have spent so much of my life alone with my dogs that it has become a habit. I have no one else to talk to.
So when new pup arrives perhaps I should purchase duct tape?


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I am so guilty of this! Lol.
> I know I need to shut my trap, but I have spent so much of my life alone with my dogs that it has become a habit. I have no one else to talk to.
> So when new pup arrives perhaps I should purchase duct tape?


Hahaha... Skip the tape. Buy some perspective 

Looking at things from the dog's point of view is very valuable.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I think people talk to their dogs WAY too much. It just becomes white noise. When I say something, I want his attention. I don't want him figuring out if I'm asking for a behavior or just running my trap again.
> 
> ETA: dogs don't speak words. They communicate with body language. I find it more efficient to do my best to use my body language to affect the dog. If I am consistent, it removes much of the necessity for commands in daily life.


One of, if not my absolute favorite trainers is Michael Ellis. It is not a coincidence that you and him say many of the same things.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> One of, if not my absolute favorite trainers is Michael Ellis. It is not a coincidence that you and him say many of the same things.


Oh no it's not coincidence at all. He's one of my favourites as well. None of the techniques I use or principles I follow are my own. There are lots of people out there smarter than me. I see no need to reinvent the wheel.

When the Michael Ellis School opens back up for in person training, I'm headed out there, hopefully for the full 4 month immersion program.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Oh no it's not coincidence at all. He's one of my favourites as well. None of the techniques I use or principles I follow are my own. There are lots of people out there smarter than me. I see no need to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> When the Michael Ellis School opens back up for in person training, I'm headed out there, hopefully for the full 4 month immersion program.


Lucky you!!! I was looking at taking time off to go attend some of his classes. I'll probably set a firmer timeline to do it once I finish sorting my life out next year.


----------



## WNGD

Great videos and Valor is really coming along well.
About once a week, I do an entire 40-60 minute walk with zero talking; eye contact, hand signals, occasional hand clap or finger point is all that's necessary and it really helps to build engagement. If I crouch and stare off, both pups know to freeze and stare in the direction I'm looking, then at me.

I use that for deer, coyotes or hikers coming in the opposite direction. Usually a hand signal recall (point at the ground if I want to be silent) is the next action.

Keep it up David, Valor is going to be a stud.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Adorable


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> I am so guilty of this! Lol.
> I know I need to shut my trap, but I have spent so much of my life alone with my dogs that it has become a habit. I have no one else to talk to.
> So when new pup arrives perhaps I should purchase duct tape?


I am with you. Carmen who attended most of my training sessions with Gus said this over and over.........”STOP TALKING TO HIM!!!”
I still struggle with minimal talking and once you start trying to stop, you realize just how much you do it.


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> I am with you. Carmen who attended most of my training sessions with Gus said this over and over.........”STOP TALKING TO HIM!!!”
> I still struggle with minimal talking and once you start trying to stop, you realize just how much you do it.


Towards the end of our year in Afghanistan, there were days where I bet I said less than 10 words to Fama other than "go suk" (look for bombs).

Try it sometime. Think the words you would normally say but don't say them. Just act like you normally would. Move your head like you're talking, just don't speak.

It will probably surprise you


----------



## David Winners

4 months


----------



## David Winners




----------



## WNGD

Looking good! They grow so fast


----------



## Catrinka

What a great looking pup! Valor is coming along really well.


----------



## Sunflowers

Valor is a Gus clone.


----------



## Heartandsoul

He came and sat and focus stared waiting for a command or something. And I would take that log and whittle him a dumbbell to fetch with. 

Those eyes are killer.


----------



## David Winners

Heartandsoul said:


> He came and sat and focus stared waiting for a command or something. And I would take that log and whittle him a dumbbell to fetch with.
> 
> Those eyes are killer.


He will fetch anything


----------



## Sunflowers

I want to see a video of him bring you a beer from the refrigerator 😂


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I want to see a video of him bring you a beer from the refrigerator 😂


Me too!!!


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Me too!!!


Ugh! Never teach a dog to open a fridge, lol. 

Dumb ex taught my Dane to fetch him beer. First issue was her discovery that she could crush the cans, nice mess that she thought was grand fun. Second issue was twofold, she learned she could take everything out of the fridge AND he did not teach her to close the fridge. Third issue was that she translated her fridge opening skills to everything, so the stove, the cupboards, the closets.
Danes are large dogs, their reach is quite interesting.


----------



## Damicodric

Saphire said:


> I am with you. Carmen who attended most of my training sessions with Gus said this over and over.........”STOP TALKING TO HIM!!!”
> I still struggle with minimal talking and once you start trying to stop, you realize just how much you do it.


God. Ain’t that the truth???


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Towards the end of our year in Afghanistan, there were days where I bet I said less than 10 words to Fama other than "go suk" (look for bombs).
> 
> Try it sometime. Think the words you would normally say but don't say them. Just act like you normally would. Move your head like you're talking, just don't speak.
> 
> It will probably surprise you


I tried this experiment with Shadow. We fail. I have said nothing to her for three days. She thinks I am broken. On walks she keeps stopping and looking at me, sniffing me, jumping on me. At home she climbs on my lap, licks my face and stares at me while whining and barking.
We suck. I don't deserve another dog.


----------



## Miika's Mom

Poor Shadow...
After this much time of you constantly talking to her she thinks something is wrong. 

I think if I talked to my girls all the time they would think something was wrong. I do tend to think our conversations. (Sometimes I wished that work as well with people, okay, a lot of times! 😏). Use physical cues more.

When my friend works Kiisa in nosework, he is constantly talking. We keep telling him he needs to give her a command and let her work. As long as she is working just let her be. She is more dependent on him for cues. (I do work with her at home and she is competitive with Miika so the only extra talking is usually to teach her a new command or praise.) When we work at home I can usually give her the command and let her work (once she realizes she is working, lol). But I think that when he tries not to talk she looks at him more.


----------



## Sunflowers

I would like to get back to Valor.
What is this attitude you speak of, David? 😄


----------



## David Winners

Hahaha... Just a little push back and "the look" when asked to do something he may not want to do. He's starting to watch people with more intensity. Harder play with large dogs. Less backing down to them. More drive all around. All totally expected. All welcome really.


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> I tried this experiment with Shadow. We fail. I have said nothing to her for three days. She thinks I am broken. On walks she keeps stopping and looking at me, sniffing me, jumping on me. At home she climbs on my lap, licks my face and stares at me while whining and barking.
> We suck. I don't deserve another dog.


You are being to hard on yourself. Much about our dogs depends on the dog itself. I don’t know Shadow’s background but my thoughts are, a sound dog is a sound dog. Gus simply tunes me out when I’m babbling too much. I have no doubt he had to learn to tune me out so he could focus on the task at hand but, that is the dog he is. Shadow may just be a different dog.
From your posts, nothing I’ve read has ever struck me as you not deserving another dog.
We learn from each dog and that is what makes us better handlers. Believe me when I say I’ve done more wrong with Gus than right. I’m thankful he is of forgiving nature and that I’m able to look back now and see so many things I could have managed and worked so much better.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I tried this experiment with Shadow. We fail. I have said nothing to her for three days. She thinks I am broken. On walks she keeps stopping and looking at me, sniffing me, jumping on me. At home she climbs on my lap, licks my face and stares at me while whining and barking.
> We suck. I don't deserve another dog.


It's just a sudden change in you that she doesn't understand. That doesn't say anything about your ownership. I think a pup would be lucky to have you.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> It's just a sudden change in you that she doesn't understand. That doesn't say anything about your ownership. I think a pup would be lucky to have you.


I always said if I ever got a normal dog it would probably hate me. Lol.

Valor is growing into quite the little man. He is going to be a stunning dog. I love those ones with that bit of attitude, just a bit of push back. That look that tells you that they are humoring you. I love that intensity in his eyes, that 100% focus on you.


----------



## David Winners

Ok, so I had a busy and hectic day. No engagement video. We didn't have any adventures today. He went everywhere with me and hung out at my restaurant (closed) while we took care of some things. 

I decided to get some video of his engagement in the front yard. I haven't taught a focused heel. Nor have a taught a watch command. I have rewarded eye contact quite a bit.


----------



## David Winners

And a pic


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> And a pic
> View attachment 563090


Isn't it amazing what they will do naturally? I have a few here that naturally heel and one of the Mals heels while pushing her muzzle into my hand. I do not teach Heel as I never use it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

And he is maturing quite nicely. How old is he now?


----------



## Sunflowers

He was born on April 30 😃


MineAreWorkingline said:


> And he is maturing quite nicely. How old is he now?


----------



## Shadow Shep

How tall is he now?


----------



## Saphire




----------



## Steve Strom

David Winners said:


> Tentative name is Valor
> View attachment 560695


Hey, congratulations David. Looks like you're having a lot of fun.


----------



## David Winners

Steve Strom said:


> Hey, congratulations David. Looks like you're having a lot of fun.


Thanks Steve. Having a blast. He's a really fantastic dog.


----------



## David Winners

4-1/2 months already!

We visited a friend last night. He's got an 18 month old female German Wired Haired Pointer, Remy. She's nervy and had only been around 1 other dog, a nasty ankle biter that freaked her out.

Valor was excited getting out of the truck, and Remy was very nervous. Avoidance like crazy. I just let Valor calm down and within 5 minutes, Remy started throwing some play signs. I let Valor off the leash and he was great with Remy. Lots of calming signals. He got her to chase him.

It only took a few minutes for her to relax and trust him. Then it was game on. They had a blast running around the barn, taking turns chasing each other. Valor got her into the pond for the first time. Its was such a cool thing to see her settle and really play.

We will make this a regular stop on our adventure circuit.

No pics of the play date, but here is a pic this morning taken at a local reservoir.


----------



## WNGD

He looks like a wise old man in an adolescent body!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

You can easily see the quality of the breeding which comes from someone who has dedicated her life to the breed.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> You can easily see the quality of the breeding which comes from someone who has dedicated her life to the breed.


I'm really looking forward to seeing what he brings as he matures.


----------



## Sabis mom

He is stunning!! A really exceptional looking dog and that expressive, attentive face.


----------



## David Winners

__





Fraserglen's Valor of Carmspack


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Fraserglen's Valor of Carmspack




www.pedigreedatabase.com


----------



## David Winners

Morning adventure in the woods.


----------



## Catrinka

Wow, Valor is looking so grown up these days. Beautiful dogs!


----------



## WNGD

Your dogs look bored, get out and do something with them


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Your dogs look bored, get out and do something with them


But I'm only supposed to walk them for 20 minutes


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> But I'm only supposed to walk them for 20 minutes


I often walk them 20 minutes....3X an hour


----------



## David Winners

Just got home from a week on the road with the DW, Cane Corso and Valor. We camped at 4 different locations through WV, NC, SC and TN. This was a new experience for all of us. 

Travel went incredibly well. We have a full sized SUV with a mattress in the back for the dogs. Several toys were available. We stopped every 3-4 hours to give dogs and humans a break and to stretch our legs. We have a spill proof bowl attached to the floor in the RV so giving water was easy. Open the door and let them in for a drink.

Dogs had free run of the RV. We didn't take any crates. They slept up in our beds with us. Everyone slept better than normal. We left them in the RV a couple times for a few hours to go to dinner. We have a camera in the RV so we could check in.

Valor and I went hiking every morning. I let him drag a long line in busy areas but let him off leash on trails and when playing in the water. I also let him drag a long line when we were setting up and tearing down. 

He was in a harness to avoid pulling on his neck if he hit a snag. I always had a treat pouch and a ball on me to reward recalls, outs and to play fetch. Most of the time, we worked on engagement under distraction and staying in positions. Any time is training time. I didn't do any "formal" training sessions. I just randomly asked for behaviors as needed. I basically brought my dog along and did things that we both enjoy.

2 adventures that stand out:

We took both dogs to the boardwalk at Myrtle Beach. I didn't even try to keep Valor from pulling. I just hooked a 6' leash to his harness and let him explore as we walked. Hank, his big brother Cane Corso, always draws a crowd so Valor got to hang out and be around a lot of people. He only interacted with a few, mostly kids. He's fairly aloof so I'm not worried about him getting all golden retriever on me.

We also had a very successful visit to a huge dog park. Lots of great interaction with great dogs. Valor brought a shy DS out of her shell a bit and get some great practice meeting and ignoring other dogs.


I really love this dog and our relationship. At 5 months, he's a lot of work as it takes a lot to wear him out, but he's also learning some patience. He is crazy stable. He really just wants to do whatever I'm doing and ties to fit in. Getting to be with daddy is rewarding to him so that makes life really easy. I pay attention to him and his needs and try my best to set him up for success. If I'm going to be fixing dinner and I know he had been out lately, I'll take him out for a short hike or some fetch to burn off some energy so he can be successful at being chill for dinner. 

More updates to follow. He's in the middle of teething. When he's got big boy teeth we will shoot some tug videos and some club work.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sounds like all of you had a lot of fun. You are raising Valor almost exactly like I raise my dogs. He's going to be a trouble free puppy for you and a go anywhere adult. 

It's so much easier with a pup that isn't interested in people and boy do pups focus on you when you do Adventure training. They don't want to miss a thing.

How do you like that spill proof bowl?


----------



## David Winners

My idea of raising a puppy is taking what they give you and going with it in a way that is beneficial. He wants to bite, we play tug. He wants to run, we fetch and recall. He wants to use his nose, we do Nosework. He wants to chill, we work on stay and house manners.

I manipulate his energy level to fit our schedule.

The more he understands, the more we can cross one type of behavior into another.

The better he gets at matching his excitement level to mine, the less I have to manipulate him through a schedule. He knows good stuff is coming. Sometimes you just have to wait and be good.

I like the bowl. It's a cheap one off Amazon and it won't last. I am going to replace it with a Ray Allen.


----------



## Sunflowers

Pictures would make this update perfect. 🥰


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> My idea of raising a puppy is taking what they give you and going with it in a way that is beneficial. He wants to bite, we play tug. He wants to run, we fetch and recall. He wants to use his nose, we do Nosework. He wants to chill, we work on stay and house manners.
> 
> I manipulate his energy level to fit our schedule.
> 
> The more he understands, the more we can cross one type of behavior into another.
> 
> The better he gets at matching his excitement level to mine, the less I have to manipulate him through a schedule. He knows good stuff is coming. Sometimes you just have to wait and be good.
> 
> I like the bowl. It's a cheap one off Amazon and it won't last. I am going to replace it with a Ray Allen.


"Energy level", Excitement" management, IMO, two critical points in raising a puppy. I would really like to see you talk more about these two things. Maybe another thread? I see energy and excitement as most puppy owners' downfalls and they don't know what they don't know and flounder. Such things as how it is used in rewarding puppies, how it affects training duration exercises or crisp obedience, leash pulling, etc.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Pictures would make this update perfect. 🥰


I left my phone in the RV on a shelf for most of the trip. It was an unplugged adventure for the most part.


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "Energy level", Excitement" management, IMO, two critical points in raising a puppy. I would really like to see you talk more about these two things. Maybe another thread? I see energy and excitement as most puppy owners' downfalls and they don't know what they don't know and flounder. Such things as how it is used in rewarding puppies, how it affects training duration exercises or crisp obedience, leash pulling, etc.


I'll start a thread in the puppy training section.


----------



## WNGD

Sounds like a GREAT time. Balanced dogs really can go everywhere.

Our dogs make the 3 hour trip to our cottage (lakehouse) 2-4 times per month for 5 months every year. They absolutely love travelling and love being in the SUV to the point where I can't leave it open in the driveway or they jump in and won't get back out. When my kids were little, I took the dog in the car to drop the kids off every morning for years and years and it was a daily highlight for her.

This, weekend, we're heading to the lake for Canadian Thanksgiving. They' be lots of hiking and sniffing for deer and bear tracks, exploring the woods, leaf color watching, spitting wood and campfires, a few adult beverages and a giant turkey/stuffing/veggies and pumpkin pie to look forward to. I might even share a little turkey with the dogs. Can't wait!

Harley and Rogan last week stuck in a traffic jam.


----------



## David Winners

The wife got a few


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Great pics! Where is that first one?


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Great pics! Where is that first one?


Thanks!

Myrtle Beach  The first big wave he encountered was pretty funny.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Myrtle Beach  The first big wave he encountered was pretty funny.


Beautiful place!

My dogs always like the big wakes the barges make on the river.


----------



## David Winners

He likes the big waves now. The first one was like, Holy Crap dad! The water jumped up and got me!


----------



## David Winners

Watching uncle Stonnie


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Adoreable!!!


----------



## WNGD

Great shot!


----------



## David Winners

Did some tall grass fetch today. He struggled in the second video but went a full 4minutes without giving up. I wish I had kept the video going. I took about 3 steps into the grass and he pushed out a little further and found it.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Very nice. How do you throw so far?


----------



## David Winners

It's a bumper. They are easy to throw. 



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0IDYY?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Very nice hunt drive, perfect environment, and Premacking out, sit and down with the hunt.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> Very nice hunt drive, perfect environment, and Premacking out, sit and down with the hunt.


I'm a big premack believer. Bites out of obedience. Down calmly and then flip into drive. I think it helps with capping and impulse control as long as you build into it and have good timing.


----------



## chuckd

Chip & David,

Thank you both for using this principle in context. It's always fascinating to me whenever human behavioral habitation and learning concepts cross over to dog training.


----------



## David Winners

chuckd said:


> Chip & David,
> 
> Thank you both for using this principle in context. It's always fascinating to me whenever human behavioral habitation and learning concepts cross over to dog training.


We're all mammals. Many learning principles cross over, particularly with young children.


----------



## LuvShepherds

David Winners said:


> We're all mammals. Many learning principles cross over, particularly with young children.


With old children, too.


----------



## Heartandsoul

He is showing great work ethic in that second vid. Were you walking behind him when you put the slight pressure on to get him to search further, or was he already out a ways?

It’s fun watching him grow up.


----------



## David Winners

He stopped next to me and looked up at me. As soon as I stepped towards the grass he jumped in front and pushed further into the grass ahead of me.

I think it's fun as well


----------



## tysco

Like looking into a mirror! (a better behaved mirror lol). Reya's favorite command is "find it", she'll search in the woods until she tracks down whatever ball, stick or branch was thrown in there. Valor does a wonderful job of return! Something she hasn't quiet caught onto yet.. she enjoys playing keep away  and treats have no value while she's in hunt mode

Great job as always, love watching him progress!


----------



## David Winners

tysco said:


> Like looking into a mirror! (a better behaved mirror lol). Reya's favorite command is "find it", she'll search in the woods until she tracks down whatever ball, stick or branch was thrown in there. Valor does a wonderful job of return! Something she hasn't quiet caught onto yet.. she enjoys playing keep away  and treats have no value while she's in hunt mode
> 
> Great job as always, love watching him progress!


I have strict rules to fetch. Bring it back is #1.

I would put a harness and long line on her and build the habit of returning the item. Check out Stonnie Dennis fetch videos.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I would put a harness and long line on her and build the habit of returning the item


I told the kids this was called fishing for puppies! Lol. 
I like Stonnies method. I taught multiple puppies to fetch in hallways. I would sit about 10 feet from the end and throw the ball gently. No where else for them to go, and I had the treats.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I told the kids this was called fishing for puppies! Lol.
> I like Stonnies method. I taught multiple puppies to fetch in hallways. I would sit about 10 feet from the end and throw the ball gently. No where else for them to go, and I had the treats.


Valor started out retrieving to me so I never did the hallway thing with him, but that's how I typically teach a retrieve. It's so much easier if they can't screw up.


----------



## David Winners

Here's a half hour session at a local reservoir. Just a few OB commands, some fetch, a couple recalls.

I'm building duration and compliance under distraction here. Also always rewarding calm, attentive behavior. There are some mistakes but both dogs perform fairly well. Some good hunt drive displayed again by Valor. He gave up a bit on one hard find and I just took a couple steps and he went right back in and found the bumper.

We followed this up with a 2 mile walk around the reservoir. No commands were given during the walk.


----------



## Jake78

David Winners said:


> Here's a half hour session at a local reservoir. Just a few OB commands, some fetch, a couple recalls.
> 
> I'm building duration and compliance under distraction here. Also always rewarding calm, attentive behavior. There are some mistakes but both dogs perform fairly well. Some good hunt drive displayed again by Valor. He gave up a bit on one hard find and I just took a couple steps and he went right back in and found the bumper.
> 
> We followed this up with a 2 mile walk around the reservoir. No commands were given during the walk.


Love the video. How did you get such a nice out from both of them?


----------



## Sunflowers

tysco said:


> Like looking into a mirror! (a better behaved mirror lol).


We don’t believe you.
You need to post pictures of Reya 😁


----------



## David Winners

PghLoveGSD said:


> Love the video. How did you get such a nice out from both of them?


I teach a motivational out. The dog outs and the game continues. It was much easier with Valor than with Captain. He's extremely biddable. He's the kind of dog that makes a trainer look good 

If you want a step by step, let me know and I'll type something out. It's nothing of my design. I start by waiting the dog out with a dead tug and build incrementally from there.


----------



## EgansMom

David Winners said:


> I teach a motivational out. The dog outs and the game continues. It was much easier with Valor than with Captain. He's extremely biddable. He's the kind of dog that makes a trainer look good
> 
> If you want a step by step, let me know and I'll type something out. It's nothing of my design. I start by waiting the dog out with a dead tug and build incrementally from there.


Yes please


----------



## bchevs

He's a beautiful pup David! I love the work you're doing with him, really enjoyed the videos teaching him to respond to the leash. The calmness between you two is great too, you're calm working with him and he's a happy, focused calm in response to you. Not overexcited or overstimulated. Something I should keep in mind when working with my boy.


----------



## David Winners

So I was thinking about Valor and our relationship today. I owe Carmen and Sheena a phone call and I'm thinking about what I'm going to say. I have been waiting for something to pop up. An issue. A question.

I have lived with some great dogs. I had a field bred lab that knew 5 different football plays. Fama was an amazing animal that saved my life several timers. Lucian was so in tune with me I didn't need commands most of the time. He just lived life with me and helped out where he could when I needed it.

This dog, at 5-1/2 months old, is already like my right hand. He looks ahead, thinking about our next move. He gets to a fork in the road and waits to see which way we will go. He is truly a partner, in it together, wanting nothing more than to do whatever is next, together.

He is a brave dog, full of himself. Confident in every situation. A smile on his face when tackling a new challenge. He hunts like crazy, fights like a champ and sleeps like a baby.

He is a joy to live with. He is kind to my 16 year old mutt that is deaf and blind. He is gentle with my 1 year old grandson. He will flat out battle an adult German shepherd. He walks in every room like he owns it and treats everyone with respect. He goes when it's time to go and stops when it's time to stop.

He's all about us, and I couldn't ask for a better dog.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Sounds like you found what you were looking for! Good deal!


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sounds like you found what you were looking for! Good deal!


That's all anyone can ask for 

I'm excited to see him mature. I think he's going to be a handful for Tim to catch.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> That's all anyone can ask for
> 
> I'm excited to see him mature. I think he's going to be a handful for Tim to catch.


We can count on you for video?


----------



## CometDog

Beautiful!!!! I have to give a nod to the name. I have a Valor too


----------



## David Winners

MineAreWorkingline said:


> We can count on you for video?


Absolutely! His big boy teeth are still coming in, but when they are finished, I'll start posting tug and flirt pole videos from home and the club.


----------



## David Winners

CometDog said:


> Beautiful!!!! I have to give a nod to the name. I have a Valor too


Thank you!!!

My wife named him. I'm terrible at naming dogs


----------



## David Winners

Quick recall video. I cross posted here to keep them all together. Feedback is always welcome!


----------



## Bearshandler

I’m terrible at naming dogs too. Most of mine would end up just being dog if I had to figure it out myself. As for the recall, I don’t see much difference between how you started yours and how I start mine. I do shape the finish from the beginning. With bear, I had to work in a little drive for his recall when he started training fit competition. That’s the story of pretty much everything with him.


----------



## David Winners

Training in the rain.

43 degrees and raining this morning. Embrace the suck and go have fun!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

David Winners said:


> Training in the rain.
> 
> 43 degrees and raining this morning. Embrace the suck and go have fun!
> View attachment 564719


The best of times!


----------



## David Winners

Soggy dogs


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Eau de Wet Dogue! One of my favorites!


----------



## chuckd

Looks like they had a productive day. Now please send some rain out west!


----------



## David Winners

David Winners said:


> Soggy dogs
> View attachment 564721


In a nutshell, this picture perfectly depicts the difference in personalities of these dogs. Valor is composed and focused. Still plenty of gas in the tank, but very compliant.

Captain, out of gas, checked out.

Back home, Valor is asleep, Captain is restless, constantly bugging Valor to play. I have to manage Captain much more.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## chuckd

Judging by their tongues hanging out, that must be a deceptively high rock pile.


----------



## David Winners

chuckd said:


> Judging by their tongues hanging out, that must be a deceptively high rock pile.




The 416 acres of tall grass and woods may have something to do with it.


----------



## chuckd

I envy your wide open spaces! You guys run in to wildlife often?


----------



## David Winners

chuckd said:


> I envy your wide open spaces! You guys run in to wildlife often?


We spooked 3 deer today, but that doesn't happen often. They were a hundred yards away so no recall challenge for the dogs. Usually it's squirrels and birds.


----------



## WNGD

David, we have entered the 4-dirty-towels-by-the-door season


----------



## David Winners

And in the truck, and the camper, and the SUV, and the garage...


----------



## David Winners

Camping this week. Had a fantastic time. He will be 6 months tomorrow. Time flies!


----------



## CeraDean

You’re having a dream “I just got my puppy” time. What great exposure and bonding time. He looks fantastic!


----------



## chuckd

Just curious, but what is your preferred sleeping arrangement when camping? Does it change if you bring both dogs? Car-camping or hike-in?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've camped with dogs for almost 20 years but I always like to see what others do... always searching for a better way, you know...


----------



## Sabis mom

How is he 6 months already???
He is growing into a gorgeous boy.


----------



## David Winners

CeraDean said:


> You’re having a dream “I just got my puppy” time. What great exposure and bonding time. He looks fantastic!


We're all about exposure and bonding. The campground was almost empty so we pretty much spent 4 days roaming around a state park off leash. I did get his favorite bumper hung up in a tree. He found it up there and was standing on a picnic table trying to get to it. It's 30 feet in the air.


----------



## WNGD

I have camped with dogs many times and deep into the Fallbut have never taken them Winter camping. They love new landscapes and new adventures but you have to keep in mind that they often stay alert and sleep less especially in a tent in the night among the new smells and sounds and given them more rest/sleep time during the day than normal.

David did you get him in the sleeping bag?


----------



## David Winners

chuckd said:


> Just curious, but what is your preferred sleeping arrangement when camping? Does it change if you bring both dogs? Car-camping or hike-in?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, but I've camped with dogs for almost 20 years but I always like to see what others do... always searching for a better way, you know...


We have a hybrid travel trailer with fold out beds on both ends. I sleep in one and the wife sleeps in the other. The dogs just sleep wherever they want to. Sometimes with us, sometimes on the other furniture or floor.

I have spent the night with a dog in most places imaginable. I'd say that my best piece of advice is have a tired dog and use your imagination.


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> I have camped with dogs many times and deep into the Fallbut have never taken them Winter camping. They love new landscapes and new adventures but you have to keep in mind that they often stay alert and sleep less especially in a tent in the night among the new smells and sounds and given them more rest/sleep time during the day than normal.
> 
> David did you get him in the sleeping bag?


Hahaha... Still too warm for that! I used to do that with Fama in the winter. I have a mountaineering bag good down to 40° F. With her in the bag, it could be 5° and we were fine.


----------



## Sunflowers

Holy Gus clone, Batman!
If someone had posted and told me that was Gus, I would’ve totally believed them.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Holy Gus clone, Batman!
> If someone had posted and told me that was Gus, I would’ve totally believed them.


Sapphire and I are always comparing puppy pictures. My wife has a hard time telling them apart


----------



## Sunflowers

Will be funny when Valor is older and he can again be photographed with Gus.


----------



## David Winners

He's got those crazy intense Gus eyes


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Will be funny when Valor is older and he can again be photographed with Gus.


I think I'm going to pull the camper up and stay with Sapphire for a couple weeks when she gets a pup. It will be fun to see Valor and Gus together. Those will be good pics.


----------



## Sunflowers

Yes, and that stare that looks right into your soul.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Hahaha... Still too warm for that! I used to do that with Fama in the winter. I have a mountaineering bag good down to 40° F. With her in the bag, it could be 5° and we were fine.


I have a queen sized sleeping bag for Fall camping I have used even in the Winter temps. My female dogs would still just lay on top, same as Harley. Even when I tried to cover them up with a simple blanket, they would just shake it off and lay on top.


----------



## SuperAndre

I think we need more pics!

What have you guys been up to?


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> I think we need more pics!
> 
> What have you guys been up to?


We've been camping and hanging out. Not a lot of "training" per say, but reinforcing good behaviors. I'm uploading a video now of a bit of a hike so you can see what he's looking like now a days.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> View attachment 565545
> 
> View attachment 565546


He looks more and more like Gus every time I see him... especially that first pic. Like father like son, both are stunning. 

How old is he now anyways?


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> He looks more and more like Gus every time I see him... especially that first pic. Like father like son, both are stunning.
> 
> How old is he now anyways?


6 Months 10 days, and yes, he definitely looks like Gus!


----------



## David Winners

This is a clip from the middle of a 5 mile hike. Not much going on that I haven't shown before. He's starting to look like a big boy!


----------



## WNGD

Seems like he was just a baby a few weeks go. Looking good


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Seems like he was just a baby a few weeks go. Looking good


Time flies when you are having fun


----------



## Bearshandler

Other than those ears, he’s starting to look pretty serious.


----------



## SuperAndre

Has he ever lost the toy in the brush lol?


----------



## dogfaeries

He’s a very handsome dog.


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Has he ever lost the toy in the brush lol?


Nope


----------



## Sunflowers

Soooooo when are you taking him herding so we can see THAT video? 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Soooooo when are you taking him herding so we can see THAT video? 🤣🤣🤣


I'm looking for a trainer that's remotely local. Why, you want to see him get whacked


----------



## Saphire

dogma13 said:


> In hindsight I should have seized more opportunities at practicing recalls when my puppies were into scampering after birds and butterflies.Face Palm!I always 'paid' them for engagement but taking it a step further would have been a better foundation.Excellent video!


I watch David’s videos and think “omg did I ever mess up when raising Gus”.


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> Ugh! Never teach a dog to open a fridge, lol.
> 
> Dumb ex taught my Dane to fetch him beer. First issue was her discovery that she could crush the cans, nice mess that she thought was grand fun. Second issue was twofold, she learned she could take everything out of the fridge AND he did not teach her to close the fridge. Third issue was that she translated her fridge opening skills to everything, so the stove, the cupboards, the closets.
> Danes are large dogs, their reach is quite interesting.


well Gus has learned to open meat freezers full of his food sooooo I agree with this lol


----------



## SuperAndre

Saphire said:


> I watch David’s videos and think “omg did I ever mess up when raising Gus”.


I think you are just being hard on yourself


----------



## Saphire

SuperAndre said:


> I think you are just being hard on yourself


No, not at all. I had some hard struggles with Gus in his younger days. He’s a lot of dog as well as a pushy smart dog. He took advantage of my lack of expertise in certain areas. I have learned ALOT from this dog and thankful he is very forgiving. David was a huge help to me when I was struggling.


----------



## SuperAndre

Saphire said:


> No, not at all. I had some hard struggles with Gus in his younger days. He’s a lot of dog as well as a pushy smart dog. He took advantage of my lack of expertise in certain areas. I have learned ALOT from this dog and thankful he is very forgiving. David was a huge help to me when I was struggling.


Was gus your first GSD?


----------



## Sunflowers

SuperAndre said:


> I think you are just being hard on yourself


Nah.
She’s right.
😂🤣
And, no, he wasn’t her first GSD.
But he was her first GUS!


----------



## Saphire

SuperAndre said:


> Was gus your first GSD?


He is my first working line GSD. My first GSD was a showline riddled with temperament and physical issues. Severe DA, EPI, serious allergies, failed to recover from anything negative, serious aggression with darker skin toned people. Lost him at 6 yrs of age to Hemangiosarcoma.


----------



## SuperAndre

Saphire said:


> He is my first working line GSD. My first GSD was a showline riddled with temperament and physical issues. Severe DA, EPI, serious allergies, failed to recover from anything negative, serious aggression with darker skin toned people. Lost him at 6 yrs of age to Hemangiosarcoma.


That is really unfortunate, I am sorry to hear. I will be getting my first GSD shortly. My girlfriends show line had me fall in love with the breed.


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> I watch David’s videos and think “omg did I ever mess up when raising Gus”.


Sapphire, you were in over your head with Gus. Unlike you, I have a lot of time to put into Valor, and I've trained a lot of dogs that would put you in the hospital if you made a mistake. I think you did a great job with Gus considering. You hung in there and learned so much when a lot of people would have given up. Handling him taught you the lessons that those of us that choose to handle hard dogs, real dogs, learn the hard way. There isn't another way. 

There is no book or video that prepares you for living with a strong, confident, full of himself GSD. You just have to do it and learn from it, and then do it better next time.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Nah.
> She’s right.
> 😂🤣
> And, no, he wasn’t her first GSD.
> But he was her first GUS!


He's such a cool dog. I've loved him from afar for 8 years. I was in Afghanistan when he was young. He reminded me so much of my Fama. I have nothing but respect for Sapphire for making it work. She overcame a lot of challenges and learned so much.

And now I've got one


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> well Gus has learned to open meat freezers full of his food sooooo I agree with this lol


Hahaha... Don't ever teach "bring me a beer"


----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> He's such a cool dog. I've loved him from afar for 8 years. I was in Afghanistan when he was young. He reminded me so much of my Fama. I have nothing but respect for Sapphire for making it work. She overcame a lot of challenges and learned so much.
> 
> And now I've got one


awwww you made me tear up ❤
There was a time where I wondered what kind of 4 legged monster he was, as I’d never had a dog like this. He seemed to always be one step ahead of me and I was playing catch up. There was also a time where I said “I will never own a Gus puppy”. Now that Gus is getting older and I finally caught up to him lol, I couldn’t imagine not sharing my home with him, I absolutely love him to death. I appreciate and understand what he is and I love Carmen for producing what a GSD is supposed to be. Most of all, the amazing friendship Carmen and I have. Without Gus, I wouldn’t have found her or had the wonderful friendship with Linda Shaw, really miss her.
When I brought Max here to stay until we could get him to Magen in Florida, I thought oh dear gawd, what am I getting myself into. Well he was a dream puppy. Then came Valor for a couple days for the same and again I thought wow these puppies are sooooooo easy. Either I’ve grown and learned to manage such amazing creatures or they were just angel puppies.


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> awwww you made me tear up ❤
> There was a time where I wondered what kind of 4 legged monster he was, as I’d never had a dog like this. He seemed to always be one step ahead of me and I was playing catch up. There was also a time where I said “I will never own a Gus puppy”. Now that Gus is getting older and I finally caught up to him lol, I couldn’t imagine not sharing my home with him, I absolutely love him to death. I appreciate and understand what he is and I love Carmen for producing what a GSD is supposed to be. Most of all, the amazing friendship Carmen and I have. Without Gus, I wouldn’t have found her or had the wonderful friendship with Linda Shaw, really miss her.
> When I brought Max here to stay until we could get him to Magen in Florida, I thought oh dear gawd, what am I getting myself into. Well he was a dream puppy. Then came Valor for a couple days for the same and again I thought wow these puppies are sooooooo easy. Either I’ve grown and learned to manage such amazing creatures or they were just angel puppies.


Gus taught you so much ❤


----------



## Bearshandler

Saphire said:


> awwww you made me tear up ❤
> There was a time where I wondered what kind of 4 legged monster he was, as I’d never had a dog like this. He seemed to always be one step ahead of me and I was playing catch up. There was also a time where I said “I will never own a Gus puppy”. Now that Gus is getting older and I finally caught up to him lol, I couldn’t imagine not sharing my home with him, I absolutely love him to death. I appreciate and understand what he is and I love Carmen for producing what a GSD is supposed to be. Most of all, the amazing friendship Carmen and I have. Without Gus, I wouldn’t have found her or had the wonderful friendship with Linda Shaw, really miss her.
> When I brought Max here to stay until we could get him to Magen in Florida, I thought oh dear gawd, what am I getting myself into. Well he was a dream puppy. Then came Valor for a couple days for the same and again I thought wow these puppies are sooooooo easy. Either I’ve grown and learned to manage such amazing creatures or they were just angel puppies.


He sounds like an awesome dog.


----------



## SuperAndre

Saphire said:


> awwww you made me tear up ❤
> There was a time where I wondered what kind of 4 legged monster he was, as I’d never had a dog like this. He seemed to always be one step ahead of me and I was playing catch up. There was also a time where I said “I will never own a Gus puppy”. Now that Gus is getting older and I finally caught up to him lol, I couldn’t imagine not sharing my home with him, I absolutely love him to death. I appreciate and understand what he is and I love Carmen for producing what a GSD is supposed to be. Most of all, the amazing friendship Carmen and I have. Without Gus, I wouldn’t have found her or had the wonderful friendship with Linda Shaw, really miss her.
> When I brought Max here to stay until we could get him to Magen in Florida, I thought oh dear gawd, what am I getting myself into. Well he was a dream puppy. Then came Valor for a couple days for the same and again I thought wow these puppies are sooooooo easy. Either I’ve grown and learned to manage such amazing creatures or they were just angel puppies.


Do you do IPO or anything with him?


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> He's such a cool dog. I've loved him from afar for 8 years.
> 
> And now I've got one


He certainly is, I can vouch for that.
I am so very happy for you.


----------



## Saphire

SuperAndre said:


> Do you do IPO or anything with him?


I did do IPO with him but multiple work injuries kept me away for months at a time, then came major shoulder injury and a surgery that put an end to that. Carmen came to most of our training sessions to observe. He is headstrong, pushy, confident, great deep grip and very serious. He’s not an IPO flashy points dog at all. He is incredible strong and powerful with such great speed for a dog his size. He was not focussed on the sleeve for the most part, he’d take the sleeve, drop it and redirect on the decoy. I do wish I’d have been healthy enough to train and get him to trial.


----------



## SuperAndre

Saphire said:


> I did do IPO with him but multiple work injuries kept me away for months at a time, then came major shoulder injury and a surgery that put an end to that. Carmen came to most of our training sessions to observe. He is headstrong, pushy, confident, great deep grip and very serious. He’s not an IPO flashy points dog at all. He is incredible strong and powerful with such great speed for a dog his size. He was not focussed on the sleeve for the most part, he’d take the sleeve, drop it and redirect on the decoy. I do wish I’d have been healthy enough to train and get him to trial.


This may sounds stupid, but when you wear the sleeve, how much pain do you actually feel? I am interested in joining a club when my pup comes around, just kinda curious about this.


----------



## Saphire

SuperAndre said:


> This may sounds stupid, but when you wear the sleeve, how much pain do you actually feel? I am interested in joining a club when my pup comes around, just kinda curious about this.


Depends a lot on the dog and what type of sleeve.


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> This may sounds stupid, but when you wear the sleeve, how much pain do you actually feel? I am interested in joining a club when my pup comes around, just kinda curious about this.


Depends on the dog. A full sleeve? You can feel it, but it won’t usually hurt. Now if you get a really hard biting dog, you can get bruised up. Intermediate and lower sleeves, you can feel a lot more, especially if the dog is ready to move up. Harder sleeves make for harder bites. Sometimes a dog will not bite as hard if they can feel you.


----------



## WNGD

You don't wear a sleeve for your own dog 
The decoy (person) does.


----------



## SuperAndre

WNGD said:


> You don't wear a sleeve for your own dog
> The decoy (person) does.


Do you not help others too with their dogs tho?


----------



## SuperAndre

Bearshandler said:


> Depends on the dog. A full sleeve? You can feel it, but it won’t usually hurt. Now if you get a really hard biting dog, you can get bruised up. Intermediate and lower sleeves, you can feel a lot more, especially if the dog is ready to move up. Harder sleeves make for harder bites. Sometimes a dog will not bite as hard if they can feel you.


Is that a good thing if they are for protection? Sorry I’m a noob and haven’t read much about personal prot


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> Is that a good thing if they are for protection? Sorry I’m a noob and haven’t read much about personal prot


If they don’t care about biting through a sleeve? I’d say that’s a good sign. I don’t do decoy work for personal protection dogs though.


----------



## Saphire

SuperAndre said:


> Do you not help others too with their dogs tho?


most people don’t/shouldn’t allow someone without a ton of knowledge and skill to catch their dogs. A lot of damage to the dog can occur if not done properly so I’d say a definite no.


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> Do you not help others too with their dogs tho?


Everyone doesn’t decoy. It takes time and training. I don’t work the younger dogs


----------



## Sabis mom

SuperAndre said:


> This may sounds stupid, but when you wear the sleeve, how much pain do you actually feel? I am interested in joining a club when my pup comes around, just kinda curious about this.


Our decoy wore hidden equipment, different training, and Sabi left bruises so I would guess he felt it. To be fair, it was minimal padding designed NOT to focus our dogs on any equipment. Just meant to protect him from serious injury.

@Saphire 
_No, not at all. I had some hard struggles with Gus in his younger days. He’s a lot of dog as well as a pushy smart dog. He took advantage of my lack of expertise in certain areas. I have learned ALOT from this dog and thankful he is very forgiving. David was a huge help to me when I was struggling. _
I love pushy and smart! These are always the dogs that force you to get better. And they are so awesome once you get that groove going on.
Hopefully David will be willing to help when I get my next puppy. I'm kinda old now. Lol.


----------



## Saphire

I plan on a two week boot camp with David when I get my Gus puppy.

@Saphire
_No, not at all. I had some hard struggles with Gus in his younger days. He’s a lot of dog as well as a pushy smart dog. He took advantage of my lack of expertise in certain areas. I have learned ALOT from this dog and thankful he is very forgiving. David was a huge help to me when I was struggling. _
I love pushy and smart! These are always the dogs that force you to get better. And they are so awesome once you get that groove going on.
Hopefully David will be willing to help when I get my next puppy. I'm kinda old now. Lol.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## SuperAndre

Sabis mom said:


> Our decoy wore hidden equipment, different training, and Sabi left bruises so I would guess he felt it. To be fair, it was minimal padding designed NOT to focus our dogs on any equipment. Just meant to protect him from serious injury.
> 
> @Saphire
> _No, not at all. I had some hard struggles with Gus in his younger days. He’s a lot of dog as well as a pushy smart dog. He took advantage of my lack of expertise in certain areas. I have learned ALOT from this dog and thankful he is very forgiving. David was a huge help to me when I was struggling. _
> I love pushy and smart! These are always the dogs that force you to get better. And they are so awesome once you get that groove going on.
> Hopefully David will be willing to help when I get my next puppy. I'm kinda old now. Lol.


Alright thank you! Yea, David is awesome!!!




Bearshandler said:


> Everyone doesn’t decoy. It takes time and training. I don’t work the younger dogs


oh okay! Makes sense. Thank you! 


Bearshandler said:


> If they don’t care about biting through a sleeve? I’d say that’s a good sign. I don’t do decoy work for personal protection dogs though.


Oh, what do you do for personal protection? 


Saphire said:


> most people don’t/shouldn’t allow someone without a ton of knowledge and skill to catch their dogs. A lot of damage to the dog can occur if not done properly so I’d say a definite no.


That would make sense. Thank you!

Thank you all for responses. I’m on my phone at the moment and responding is quite odd. Sorry for the brief responses. I feel like the most massive noob with everyone responding haha. I am sure there will be more noobie questions from me in the future as well. Ooops.

sorry for hijacking the thread a bit David.


----------



## Max’s Owner

David Winners said:


> I'm looking for a trainer that's remotely local. Why, you want to see him get whacked


Brother Max says -worth it!🤪


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Alright thank you! Yea, David is awesome!!!
> 
> 
> 
> oh okay! Makes sense. Thank you!
> 
> Oh, what do you do for personal protection?
> 
> That would make sense. Thank you!
> 
> Thank you all for responses. I’m on my phone at the moment and responding is quite odd. Sorry for the brief responses. I feel like the most massive noob with everyone responding haha. I am sure there will be more noobie questions from me in the future as well. Ooops.
> 
> sorry for hijacking the thread a bit David.


No worries at all.

Working a dog in a sport and for the street are 2 different things and are often 2 different kind of dogs. Not to say a good PP dog couldn't excel in sports.

It is also very different handling a real PP dog in public than a sport dog. You typically want the dog ready at all times, where a sport dog needs to be ready when it knows it's going to hit the field.

These are a lot of gray areas with overlap and can vary wildly depending on training and the individual dog.


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> Alright thank you! Yea, David is awesome!!!
> 
> 
> 
> oh okay! Makes sense. Thank you!
> 
> Oh, what do you do for personal protection?
> 
> That would make sense. Thank you!
> 
> Thank you all for responses. I’m on my phone at the moment and responding is quite odd. Sorry for the brief responses. I feel like the most massive noob with everyone responding haha. I am sure there will be more noobie questions from me in the future as well. Ooops.
> 
> sorry for hijacking the thread a bit David.


I do that kind of stuff more for fun than with serious goals. My dog’s primary focus is the sport side.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Bearshandler said:


> Sometimes a dog will not bite as hard if they can feel you.


I don't know if you care to elaborate but I'm surprised to read that you wrote that based on your comment on another thread about how a dog sees the suit as a toy.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> No worries at all.
> 
> Working a dog in a sport and for the street are 2 different things and are often 2 different kind of dogs. Not to say a good PP dog couldn't excel in sports.
> 
> It is also very different handling a real PP dog in public than a sport dog. You typically want the dog ready at all times, where a sport dog needs to be ready when it knows it's going to hit the field.
> 
> These are a lot of gray areas with overlap and can vary wildly depending on training and the individual dog.


Thank you for clearing that up a bit! I definitely need to do more research regarding training other than obedience. I like the idea of possibly doing some bite work / PP and Scent Work but it would never be a dog that was only personal protection. I would like to be able to dabble in multiple things if possible or sort of go with the flow of the dog. For me the most important thing is a companion, the rest just adds to the fun of it.


----------



## SuperAndre

Bearshandler said:


> I do that kind of stuff more for fun than with serious goals. My dog’s primary focus is the sport side.


My goal is to do things for fun as well. What kind of sports do you do, herding?


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> My goal is to do things for fun as well. What kind of sports do you do, herding?


I’m focused on schutzhund currently. I haven’t tried herding yet. I think it’s going to end up with my dogs getting whacked.


----------



## SuperAndre

Bearshandler said:


> I’m focused on schutzhund currently. I haven’t tried herding yet. I think it’s going to end up with my dogs getting whacked.


Cool! I saw a video on here the other day for the first time of someone's dog herding or training to become a herder. It is really interesting, not sure where on earth I would even access or find some sheep to practice herding LOL. You think my neighbor would like my dog terrorizing their livestock? aha


----------



## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't know if you care to elaborate but I'm surprised to read that you wrote that based on your comment on another thread about how a dog sees the suit as a toy.


Just as all sleeves are not created equal, neither are all suits. A more padded suit or sleeve gives the dog less ability to feel what is underneath. Depending on the dog, they may inhibit the bite. A dog truly intent on hurting you probably won’t care. A less serious dog may be affected. A dog that is never taught but inhibition won’t care. It can be a jarring experience for a dog the first time. You can train a dog to target a suit the same as a sleeve. You could have the decoy take the suit off and the dog will bark and lunge at the suit in the ground, no different than a sleeve. You can see a dog turn on when they see the suit, same as a sleeve. The things you talk about are more training issues than equipment in my experience.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

As you alluded to, its about a dog's genetics, the type of equipment and training. We only use competition suits (least padded) with a gauntlet underneath for hard biting dogs. That's why I said the dog learns to see the suit as an extension of the decoy because they feel a person's movement through the suit. The dog won't get that experience in a thick suit as you wrote. But a dog that is not that serious, will likely have to be started on the suit with the decoy wearing the top backwards and slipping it. A stronger dog has no issue. We only slipped the suit one time with my dog and he spit it out and focused on the decoy. Another aspect of training is how some people set a foundation that it is okay for their dog to go into very high drive and be hectic at the sight of a sleeve or suit. We set a foundation that is just the opposite because the dog has to learn not to bite the decoy unless given a command to or there is an attack on the handler. Dogs don't learn well when they are highly amped up. I have done zero training that is solely aimed at PP but I am confident my dog would bite someone on command or if I was attacked. You never know until it happens. That is the type of dog I prefer. It doesn't make sense to train very hard in a protection sport and end up with a dog that won't protect you. I realize not everyone wants that type of dog.


----------



## SuperAndre

Chip Blasiole said:


> As you alluded to, its about a dog's genetics, the type of equipment and training. We only use competition suits (least padded) with a gauntlet underneath for hard biting dogs. That's why I said the dog learns to see the suit as an extension of the decoy because they feel a person's movement through the suit. The dog won't get that experience in a thick suit as you wrote. But a dog that is not that serious, will likely have to be started on the suit with the decoy wearing the top backwards and slipping it. A stronger dog has no issue. We only slipped the suit one time with my dog and he spit it out and focused on the decoy. Another aspect of training is how some people set a foundation that it is okay for their dog to go into very high drive and be hectic at the sight of a sleeve or suit. We set a foundation that is just the opposite because the dog has to learn not to bite the decoy unless given a command to or there is an attack on the handler. Dogs don't learn well when they are highly amped up. I have done zero training that is solely aimed at PP but I am confident my dog would bite someone on command or if I was attacked. You never know until it happens. That is the type of dog I prefer. It doesn't make sense to train very hard in a protection sport and end up with a dog that won't protect you. I realize not everyone wants that type of dog.


How long does it usually take a dog to get the point to go straight for the decoy in training? I imagine there is a lot of building blocks to achieve that?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Some dogs just have the genetics for it, some dogs can be taught and there is no set time period to achieve that goal as each dog is an individual, and some dogs never will do that. For my dog we just tested it after he had about a year of training and was about 18 months old. I believe for him it was a combination of genetics and a training approach that teaches the dog how to fight a person.


----------



## SuperAndre

Chip Blasiole said:


> Some dogs just have the genetics for it, some dogs can be taught and there is no set time period to achieve that goal as each dog is an individual, and some dogs never will do that. For my dog we just tested it after he had about a year of training and was about 18 months old. I believe for him it was a combination of genetics and a training approach that teaches the dog how to fight a person.


What age do you suggest starting that kind of training? Apart from imprint work.


----------



## Sabis mom

@David Winners are you thinking of doing herding? Tell me more about that!


----------



## Chip Blasiole

SuperAndre said:


> What age do you suggest starting that kind of training? Apart from imprint work.


As I said, it was just a test. Training for sport has enough other things to try to master so man focus per se it not something we do. Again, it depends on the dog, what your goals are and if you have access to competent training.


----------



## Saphire

Chip Blasiole said:


> As I said, it was just a test. Training for sport has enough other things to try to master so man focus per se it not something we do. Again, it depends on the dog, what your goals are and if you have access to competent training.


Finding competent training is the hard part even for experienced people,ten times for worse for people new to the sport.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> @David Winners are you thinking of doing herding? Tell me more about that!


I would if I could find a trainer


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Sapphire,
I think the lack of competent training is a major factor why the US has struggled so long to consistently produce good dogs. Plus, if people aren’t knowledgeable trainers, people who breed don’t know if what they are breeding is training or genetics.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

David, 
This goes back to competent training. How far are you from Ulf Kintzel?


----------



## David Winners

Can I ask a favor. Take this conversation out of my puppy thread please. I just realized that all this was in that thread.


----------



## David Winners

Chip Blasiole said:


> David,
> This goes back to competent training. How far are you from Ulf Kintzel?


8 hours


----------



## Chip Blasiole

That is a big problem in such a large country. It’s just not practical to travel that far for training.


----------



## onyx'girl

Hadobar farm isn't far from you David. Not sure how active it is with the covid thing.

Ulf usually takes dogs in for a year long program with trial goals, as he runs a working farm and isn't an instructor for people to learn herding along with their dog. Camilla Hart has sent a few dogs to Ulf.


----------



## David Winners

onyx'girl said:


> Hadobar farm isn't far from you David. Not sure how active it is with the covid thing.
> 
> Ulf usually takes dogs in for a year long program with trial goals, as he runs a working farm and isn't an instructor for people to learn herding along with their dog. Camilla Hart has sent a few dogs to Ulf.


Thanks Jane!


----------



## David Winners




----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> View attachment 565677


Valor and your son? Super cute. How’s he do with kids?


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Valor and your son? Super cute. How’s he do with kids?


My grandson.

Valor has been fantastic with kids. Very gentle, even when he was a small pup.


----------



## David Winners

6 months


----------



## SuperAndre

Valor in the first video... he’s too cute. I think he’s more interested in the toys than your grandson!!
You have a lovely family


----------



## David Winners

Thank you

He doesn't play with the baby toys either. Yeah, I hit the lottery.


----------



## David Winners

Fetch and obedience in a rain storm with heavy winds this morning. We are both soaked and tied.

No excuses


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Fetch and obedience in a rain storm with heavy winds this morning. We are both soaked and tied.
> 
> No excuses


Those are some awesome bonding experiences


----------



## WNGD

Yup, was out at 7:00 with the boys in the woods and the rain. Wet, a bit dirty and tongues hanging out.
-Two white tailed deer jumped up in the woods 50 feet behind our yard, haven't seen them much all Summer, dogs didn't see them but I did!


----------



## David Winners

First snow! He loves it ❤


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> First snow! He loves it ❤
> 
> View attachment 565967
> 
> View attachment 565968


Lucky... we haven’t gotten that much snow yet


----------



## David Winners

The snow threw him for a loop. I know odor changes a bit and you often see detection dogs struggle in snow until they get used to it. He eventually found this tug and got progressively better throughout the adventure. I shipped the video because my hand was getting cold.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> The snow threw him for a loop. I know odor changes a bit and you often see detection dogs struggle in snow until they get used to it. He eventually found this tug and got progressively better throughout the adventure. I shipped the video because my hand was getting cold.


Seems to be having a ton of fun! I can not wait for the snow... we are supposed to get a ton today.

Did you teach him to always look back at you for guidance or just reinforce his natural behaviour?
edit: now that I re-watch it, I think he is just waiting for the ball / toy to be thrown LOL


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Seems to be having a ton of fun! I can not wait for the snow... we are supposed to get a ton today.
> 
> Did you teach him to always look back at you for guidance or just reinforce his natural behaviour?
> edit: now that I re-watch it, I think he is just waiting for the ball / toy to be thrown LOL


He's always had great engagement. You can look back at the very earliest videos and it's there.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## chuckd

@David Winners 
I hope you were able to enjoy all 10 minutes of Valor's combat nap!


----------



## WNGD

Dave, were you a jar head? Because you're dog sure is in the very best possible sense


----------



## SuperAndre

WNGD said:


> Dave, were you a jar head? Because you're dog sure is in the very best possible sense


a Jar head??? lol


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Dave, were you a jar head? Because you're dog sure is in the very best possible sense


No crayons for breakfast here 

I'm Army all the way, but I've served with many fine Marines. 

He is very much 100% go and nap when you can. Suits me just fine.


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> a Jar head??? lol


It's a friendly name for a Marine


----------



## David Winners

First Valor casualty.
Little turd got them while I was in the restroom. Mom isn't happy.


----------



## Bearshandler

🤣🤣I’m surprised you didn’t try to hide them.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣I’m surprised you didn’t try to hide them.


I couldn't really do that but I thought for a second about blaming her dog instead


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> I couldn't really do that but I thought for a second about blaming her dog instead


What kind of dog does she have?


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> What kind of dog does she have?


A Cane Corso.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> A Cane Corso.
> View attachment 566074


A friend of mine wants one of these in the army. He wants to get transferred over to some K9 squad ASAP because of this. Haha
Pretty pupper!


----------



## Bearshandler

I don’t remember ever hearing what you guys did with the Dane? Is she still there? Do you have all 3(4) together often? What’s their dynamic like and how do you manage it? Did you have to do anything special when introducing them?


----------



## David Winners

The Dane was only here for a couple days before we found her a great home. She was fine while here. Low end rank wise. Valor threw a bunch of calming signals and got her to playing within a half hour.

I have 3-5 dogs here quite often. I manage excitement levels to keep everyone under control. My dogs are well behaved with strange dogs and they are used to new comers. New comers aren't usually trouble because they are in a strange place and it's their natural instinct to fit in. Hank is a very imposing dog to new comers and they have a tendency to tread lightly around him. He will growl if they have had manners. I don't allow dog on dog physical corrections and my dogs understand and comply with that.

I occasionally get a truly DA dog that has to be separated for a while. Not often though. They are usually just reactive and can be worked in with leash pressure and proper introductions. I really miss having Fama around because she was a very rank female and dogs usually just fell in line. She ignored new dogs, for the most part, until they solicited attention. She would occasionally throw a dog around if they tried to play too rough with her.

I posted this pic in another thread recently and it made me think of Roscoe, the little tan dog. He was very dog reactive and an escape artist. He had been through 3 fosters who refused to keep him. They contacted me and I brought him home for a month. He walked in the door barking and hackles up. Fama and Lucian (Cane Corso) met him at the door and he immediately calmed down and started trying to make friends. They did far more training with that dog than I did.


----------



## Dunkirk

David Winners said:


> First Valor casualty.
> Little turd got them while I was in the restroom. Mom isn't happy.
> 
> View attachment 566072


Trying to be positive, it's a delicate, precision chew.


----------



## WNGD

I thought of you when I saw this little guy for sale up here yesterday








Oddly enough, the Sire's name is Lucius


----------



## David Winners

Pretty boy


----------



## David Winners

Valor and I were on an adventure in a park today. We came across some cut down logs that were spaced around a large fire pit, so I started doing some parkour training, hopping from one to another. Just a couple reps to see how he would do. I'll take the good camera back and continue in a couple days.

Then we ran into some stacked up picnic tables, so I thought I would try to get him to run over them. He biffed on the first attempt but got right back up there and rocked it. 

Trigger warning for those that think puppies shouldn't do steps. He will be 7 months in 3 days.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Valor and I were on an adventure in a park today. We came across some cut down logs that were spaced around a large fire pit, so I started doing some parkour training, hopping from one to another. Just a couple reps to see how he would do. I'll take the good camera back and continue in a couple days.
> 
> Then we ran into some stacked up picnic tables, so I thought I would try to get him to run over them. He biffed on the first attempt but got right back up there and rocked it.
> 
> Trigger warning for those that think puppies shouldn't do steps. He will be 7 months in 3 days.


You and valor are the dream team wow, you make it look easy.


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> You and valor are the dream team wow, you make it look easy.


He makes it easy. Hey, jump up there. Thanks very much. Here's a toy.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> He makes it easy. Hey, jump up there. Thanks very much. Here's a toy.


The poor guy on the first attempt LOL


----------



## David Winners

He's a resilient dog. Lots of bumps and bruises and failure that led to success and fun, starting the day I got him.


----------



## Sabis mom

Did you call him Nerd??


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Did you call him Nerd??


Yes. He recently graduated from turd to nerd. His actual name is like a command, look at me, and I don't pollute it by using it all the time. Plus, I've always given my favorite soldiers nicknames. It's a habit.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Yes. He recently graduated from turd to nerd. His actual name is like a command, look at me, and I don't pollute it by using it all the time. Plus, I've always given my favorite soldiers nicknames. It's a habit.


Lol. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't wrong. I call this one Punk, and I sort of do the same thing with the name. I expect a response to the name.
That looked like awesome fun!


----------



## David Winners

Posted for continuity


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Posted for continuity


When it went back under the rug I almost felt bad for him. LOL


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Valor and I were on an adventure in a park today. We came across some cut down logs that were spaced around a large fire pit, so I started doing some parkour training, hopping from one to another. Just a couple reps to see how he would do. I'll take the good camera back and continue in a couple days.
> 
> Then we ran into some stacked up picnic tables, so I thought I would try to get him to run over them. He biffed on the first attempt but got right back up there and rocked it.
> 
> Trigger warning for those that think puppies shouldn't do steps. He will be 7 months in 3 days.


I’m triggered. It’s such a great relationship to watch.


----------



## David Winners

Here's a short clip of a walk in the park by my house. There is a pretty athletic jump at 9:16. Good stuff starts at 6:50. I wanted to take him over and do some familiarization with slippery surfaces. It's nothing intense as far as training goes. Just exposure to snowy surfaces and some parkour training.

Sorry for the bad camera angle. It's hard to get it tipped down to just the right angle so you can see him up close and far away. I can't see the video until I take the camera off my head, and by then it is too late to do anything about it. Still learning.


----------



## KarmaPuppy

his coloring is awesome!! Karma is in the rebellious stage at the moment. i miss the days when she was a pup and listened fairly well like valor lol


----------



## Sabis mom

I so love this dog! 
David the videos you keep posting are so imensely valuable to so many of us. We get to see a gorgeous pup with incredible potential in the hands of a pro. Thank you!


----------



## David Winners

New camera mount / chest rig. Trying to find the best solution. Let me know what you think.


----------



## Sabis mom

I feel like I'm out for a walk with you two!


----------



## SuperAndre

Gotta keep these coming daily. What other activities do you and Valor do on the daily basis?


----------



## Bearshandler

I don’t think you’ll be satisfied with the setup till you rig up a selfie stick so we can you and valor at the same time.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think you’ll be satisfied with the setup till you rig up a selfie stick so we can you and valor at the same time.


It is hard to convey what's really going on. I'm thinking a drone in follow mode would be cool for outdoor adventure stuff.


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Gotta keep these coming daily. What other activities do you and Valor do on the daily basis?


A little nosework sometimes. OB in the house, working on long down stays and static position stuff. Obstacle course. Leash pressure heel foundation work. Being good walking through stores and hanging out in restaurants and bars.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> It is hard to convey what's really going on. I'm thinking a drone in follow mode would be cool for outdoor adventure stuff.


Good drones can get kinda pricey. I think you could get a 3rd person stick for 100.


----------



## chuckd

Camera crew. Time to put the kids to work.


----------



## David Winners

chuckd said:


> Camera crew. Time to put the kids to work.


My kids are 29 and 32, and they both make 30 bucks an hour. Maybe the grandkids...


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Good drones can get kinda pricey. I think you could get a 3rd person stick for 100.


Gotta check that out.


----------



## chuckd

Many youtube vloggers hand-hold their cameras on a gimbal. This not only provides stability and image stabilization, but also the ability to switch around to "selfy" orientation.

IDK how practical that would be for you, since I presume you'd like to keep both hands free. Something to consider, though.


----------



## David Winners

chuckd said:


> Many youtube vloggers hand-held their cameras on a gimbal. This not only provides stability and image stabilization, but also the ability to switch around to "selfy" orientation.
> 
> IDK how practical that would be for you, since I presume you'd like to keep both hands free. Something to consider, though.


I have a buddy with one and I'm gong to test drive it. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> New camera mount / chest rig. Trying to find the best solution. Let me know what you think.


Btw, I really like the chest mount rig thing. Way better!


----------



## David Winners

Dad... Frow sumptin


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Dad... Frow sumptin
> View attachment 566628


Handsome as always


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Dad... Frow sumptin .... *or I will eat your leg* ....
> View attachment 566628


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Dad... Frow sumptin
> View attachment 566628


Up and at em soldier.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## dogma13

Love it!


----------



## David Winners




----------



## SuperAndre

Hey! There's a dog photobombing that lovely tree!

Handsome Valor as always


----------



## WNGD

That face!


----------



## Rionel

Great pic. He just gets better looking.


----------



## Roscoe618

Awesome dog and videos. You're not afraid of a car speeding by when he is on the street? I can't let my pup off leash until we walk to the park about a mile away. 
And which retrieving toy is that you have?


----------



## David Winners

Roscoe618 said:


> Awesome dog and videos. You're not afraid of a car speeding by when he is on the street? I can't let my pup off leash until we walk to the park about a mile away.
> And which retrieving toy is that you have?


Thanks! I really love this dog.

There is a 4 way stop right there by my house so cars are going slow right there. I can also see all 4 directions for several blocks.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0IDYY?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


----------



## Roscoe618

David Winners said:


> Thanks! I really love this dog.
> 
> There is a 4 way stop right there by my house so cars are going slow right there. I can also see all 4 directions for several blocks.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0IDYY?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


Thank you for the link. Is it pretty durable since it's air filled?

Mine will also climb anything and work for a tennis ball. So now want to move it to one of these.


----------



## Max’s Owner

David Winners said:


> Thanks! I really love this dog.
> 
> There is a 4 way stop right there by my house so cars are going slow right there. I can also see all 4 directions for several blocks.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0IDYY?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


darnnnnnn doesn’t come in pink


----------



## David Winners

Roscoe618 said:


> Thank you for the link. Is it pretty durable since it's air filled?
> 
> Mine will also climb anything and work for a tennis ball. So now want to move it to one of these.


It's extremely durable. It should last forever if you don't get it hung in a tree or let them use it as a chew toy.


----------



## David Winners

Daddy has a busy schedule so the nerd gets a chill day. Second one in 5 months


----------



## Bearshandler

How does he handle those toned down days?


----------



## David Winners

Just fine so far. He will lay around until I get home.


----------



## WNGD

We just came in from an hour in the woods in steady rain and mud. 
Anyone have a few dozen extra towels they wish to donate?

My older dog had to be used to chilling 9-5 occasionally but not too often since I'm only out about 1 day per week and someone else was usually there. Now with COVID, we actually had to purposely go out for a few hours for no reason now and again just so the younger boy knows it's possible and no big deal.

The problem (good problem?) is they now go out waaay more often than usual and maybe possible in the future. Like 7:00 am, 10, 12, 3, 5:00, 8:00 and 11:00. I give in too easily to "the stare"


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Just fine so far. He will lay around until I get home.


Do you crate him at all?

Oh by the way, been watching a lot of Uncle Stonnie, gotta love the guy. I like his older videos way more the dudes funny haha.


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Do you crate him at all?
> 
> Oh by the way, been watching a lot of Uncle Stonnie, gotta love the guy. I like his older videos way more the dudes funny haha.


Once in a while to keep him familiar and see if there are any problems creeping up.

He doesn't need it. He's fine in in the house unsupervised. He's had run of the house since about 5 months.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Once in a while to keep him familiar and see if there are any problems creeping up.
> 
> He doesn't need it. He's fine in in the house unsupervised. He's had run of the house since about 5 months.


Before five months was he crated or confined to certain rooms?


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Before five months was he crated or confined to certain rooms?


Just crated when no one was home. He's never been confined to rooms or areas except my room at night.


----------



## LuvShepherds

David Winners said:


> My kids are 29 and 32, and they both make 30 bucks an hour. Maybe the grandkids...


You were a young parent. You have grandchildren? That could work. I like the new camera.


----------



## David Winners

LuvShepherds said:


> You were a young parent. You have grandchildren? That could work. I like the new camera.


Grandkids are 10, 7, 1 and due in February 

Thanks!


----------



## David Winners

Valor at 10 weeks at the range. Solid nerves. No training necessary.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Valor at 10 weeks at the range. Solid nerves. No training necessary.


That’s a pretty solid dog you got there.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> That’s a pretty solid dog you got there.


Thanks. I agree.

I wish I had video of this. I have been up at the restaurant selling off all the equipment and small wares. Think of it as a large garage sale. Lots of people coming and going. Valor has been keeping me company. It's great exposure for him.

A lady knocked a tote full of salt and pepper shakers onto the floor from a shelf right behind Valor. Huge noise. He spun around and thrashed the tote without hesitation.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Thanks. I agree.
> 
> I wish I had video of this. I have been up at the restaurant selling off all the equipment and small wares. Think of it as a large garage sale. Lots of people coming and going. Valor has been keeping me company. It's great exposure for him.
> 
> A lady knocked a tote full of salt and pepper shakers onto the floor from a shelf right behind Valor. Huge noise. He spun around and thrashed the tote without hesitation.


That’s such a great reaction.


----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> Thanks. I agree.
> 
> I wish I had video of this. I have been up at the restaurant selling off all the equipment and small wares. Think of it as a large garage sale. Lots of people coming and going. Valor has been keeping me company. It's great exposure for him.
> 
> A lady knocked a tote full of salt and pepper shakers onto the floor from a shelf right behind Valor. Huge noise. He spun around and thrashed the tote without hesitation.


Sooooo much like his dad but with a much better handler/trainer.


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> Sooooo much like his dad but with a much better handler/trainer.


You got the dog you needed. It's all downhill from here


----------



## David Winners

A boy and his dog watching TV


----------



## David Winners

Oh there is a repeat Gus x Elli Mae breeding coming up. Must. Resist. Female. Puppy.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Oh there is a repeat Gus x Elli Mae breeding coming up. Must. Resist. Female. Puppy.


You could get her for me for Christmas?


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> You could get her for me for Christmas?


Now that would be one heck of a present!


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Oh there is a repeat Gus x Elli Mae breeding coming up. Must. Resist. Female. Puppy.


Maybe I don't wanna resist!


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Maybe I don't wanna resist!


Do it. Do it. Do it now!


----------



## Sabis mom

Lol. Maybe she won't sell me a pup.


----------



## Bearshandler

Sabis mom said:


> Lol. Maybe she won't sell me a pup.


I don’t know. You seem like a pretty qualified buyer.


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> Lol. Maybe she won't sell me a pup.


I’m sure I can make it happen. David is also a great reference. I’m most likely looking to get a pup from that litter as well.


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t know. You seem like a pretty qualified buyer.


I'm just going to live vicariously through you all.


----------



## Sabis mom

Saphire said:


> I’m sure I can make it happen. David is also a great reference. I’m most likely looking to get a pup from that litter as well.


I told her I like Gus!
Some will depend on Shadows health and how she winters but I'm sure she will be ok. 
I will await an answer. 
More Valor pics!


----------



## David Winners




----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Now that would be one heck of a present!


I'm going to fill out an application.
GSD experience, check
Desire to title dog, check
Understanding of time and financial commitment, check
Agreement to let dog growl at you ..... cr*p I'm in trouble

Where's the stir the pot icon? 

Seriously, my next dog will likely be a female and I'm seriously hoping for a dark sable if all the more important factors add up.


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> I'm going to fill out an application.
> GSD experience, check
> Desire to title dog, check
> Understanding of time and financial commitment, check
> Agreement to let dog growl at you ..... cr*p I'm in trouble
> 
> Where's the stir the pot icon?
> 
> Seriously, my next dog will likely be a female and I'm seriously hoping for a dark sable if all the more important factors add up.


Valor doesn't growl at me. That doesn't mean he wouldn't at someone else


----------



## Sabis mom

WNGD said:


> I'm going to fill out an application.
> GSD experience, check
> Desire to title dog, check
> Understanding of time and financial commitment, check
> Agreement to let dog growl at you ..... cr*p I'm in trouble
> 
> Where's the stir the pot icon?
> 
> Seriously, my next dog will likely be a female and I'm seriously hoping for a dark sable if all the more important factors add up.


It's not about letting them growl at you. It's about recognizing that if they are, there is a problem and they are trying to let you know. It's up to you at that point to make a decision to communicate that a) ok we can try to fix this, b) sorry but this needs to happen.


----------



## David Winners

Morning hike. Captain is just 2 years old and is starting to push things a bit. He dropped a tug and bit Valor to take Valor's tug away. Then he broke a down a couple times. I wish I had an e-collar on Captain this morning so I could have shown the correction for this type of behavior. This is the first time it popped up so there will be a follow up video later showing the training involved. I ended up putting Captain up and playing some more with Valor.

We went to 2 more locations after this. No fetch though. I didn't want Captain to continue this behavior.


----------



## Sabis mom

A perfect example of live to fight another day.

I quite like Captain btw.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> A perfect example of live to fight another day.
> 
> I quite like Captain btw.


Eh... He's ok. I don't like that he doesn't settle in the house and I have to manage him.


----------



## SuperAndre

WNGD said:


> I'm going to fill out an application.
> GSD experience, check
> Desire to title dog, check
> Understanding of time and financial commitment, check
> Agreement to let dog growl at you ..... cr*p I'm in trouble
> 
> Where's the stir the pot icon?
> 
> Seriously, my next dog will likely be a female and I'm seriously hoping for a dark sable if all the more important factors add up.


You getting a pup from Fraserglen too?


----------



## WNGD

SuperAndre said:


> You getting a pup from Fraserglen too?


Maybe one day, we will remain a 2 GSD household for now.
I was just having some fun.


----------



## David Winners

He's growing up so fast...









Yes, the CC has his own chair. It gets hosed down with enzyme cleaner weekly. The drool struggle is real.


----------



## David Winners

Nosework video. Almost 8 months old.









Wearing out a puppy / Nosework


Here's a video of Valor hunting a bumper scented with odor. The wind is coming from our left at the start of the video. This is a fantastic way to wear out a puppy. Actively searching is very physically and mentally tiring and satisfying. Short clip from today. You can see that I fake him...




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## David Winners

We had Christmas last night with the kids and grandkids. Lots of laughter, cheer, wrapping paper, baby on the floor crawling around, toys everywhere, 10 year old granddaughter running around. 

Valor will be 8 months old on the 30th. Typically this is about a month into the butthead stage. Obedience takes a back burner to impulse and self gratifying behaviors.

To set him up for success, I took Valor out twice yesterday. The first time was just a hike through the woods for an hour. The second time in the afternoon was Nosework in large open areas.

He was a fantastic little gentleman. He played well with everyone at appropriate energy levels, wrestling hard with my son, playing chase games with my granddaughter, and gentle kisses for the baby. He did steal a toy or two from the baby, but in his defense, he and the baby often trade dog toys back and forth. After Valor learned what was not a dog toy, he left them alone and would bring approved toys to the baby to play with.

He was silly and entertaining. He greeted everyone at the door well. He respected plates of food on laps and the personal space of kids unwrapping piles of presents on the floor.

He was tired and satisfied at the end of the party and snuggled up on me in bed.

A perfect evening for a boy and his dog.


----------



## dogma13

Good boy Valor!Merry Christmas David


----------



## Sabis mom

Merry Christmas David! Valor sounds like he had a good day!


----------



## David Winners

dogma13 said:


> Good boy Valor!Merry Christmas David


Merry Christmas Terri!


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Merry Christmas David! Valor sounds like he had a good day!


Merry Christmas


----------



## WNGD

That would have been an exhausting mind work-out for a pup. Well done.


----------



## SuperAndre

Merry Christmas! Looks like little Valor is out cold 😂


----------



## David Winners

So I was under the weather, and cooking dinner for a bunch of vets, for 2 days and didn't get Valor out for exercise.

He was fine through both days, but last night at 2am, the little turd wanted to play. He was whining at the bedroom door, which typically means potty break, and he went directly out and attacked his Jolly Egg. 

There was a solid half hour of "go to sleep or I will choke you out dog." Then he went to sleep.

I ran his little booty off today. Several times


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> So I was under the weather, and cooking dinner for a bunch of vets, for 2 days and didn't get Valor out for exercise.
> 
> He was fine through both days, but last night at 2am, the little turd wanted to play. He was whining at the bedroom door, which typically means potty break, and he went directly out and attacked his Jolly Egg.
> 
> There was a solid half hour of "go to sleep or I will choke you out dog." Then he went to sleep.
> 
> I ran his little booty off today. Several times


Did you put him out? Or just told him to go back to sleep?


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> Did you put him out? Or just told him to go back to sleep?


I just didn't let him get his way and he got bored and went to sleep.


----------



## Sabis mom

You need to send that poor, neglected pup to me, lol.

Usually I use "I will sell you and buy beer" as a threat, but yours works to! 
Hope you feel better and got some sleep.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> You need to send that poor, neglected pup to me, lol.
> 
> Usually I use "I will sell you and buy beer" as a threat, but yours works to!
> Hope you feel better and got some sleep.


I rarely get much sleep, but I had a cold on top of it and I've been crazy busy lately. 

Headed to Florida soon. Beaches and relaxation are on the schedule.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> So I was under the weather, and cooking dinner for a bunch of vets, for 2 days and didn't get Valor out for exercise.
> 
> He was fine through both days, but last night at 2am, the little turd wanted to play. He was whining at the bedroom door, which typically means potty break, and he went directly out and attacked his Jolly Egg.
> 
> There was a solid half hour of "go to sleep or I will choke you out dog." Then he went to sleep.
> 
> I ran his little booty off today. Several times


I have never tried or been forced to deny Rogan at least an hour of solid exercise every day; I think he would destroy me 

We built snow forts for an hour and then had a violent snowball fight for an hour yesterday. Both dogs were right in there and had a blast. Harley came inside, had dinner and brought his ball for more play lol. They're still tired this morning tho....


----------



## SuperAndre

WNGD said:


> I have never tried or been forced to deny Rogan at least an hour of solid exercise every day; I think he would destroy me
> 
> We built snow forts for an hour and then had a violent snowball fight for an hour yesterday. Both dogs were right in there and had a blast. Harley came inside, had dinner and brought his ball for more play lol. They're still tired this morning tho....


Just if we got enough snow for a snow fort.... we have a solid 1/2in of snow.


----------



## David Winners

Had a fun outing with Valor today. We went to a state park that has a lot of hills to try some novice level climbing. It is deer season here so we went later in the morning when most hunters are finishing up. There were 4 guys in the parking lot, taking off their heavy clotting to go back and drag a deer out. They were being loud and joking around.

I let Valor out of the truck off leash and he was very neutral. Drive by checking them out. I asked if they were headed in and where they were going so as to not interrupt them and they said they were gone, just going back to get one they shot earlier.

We headed down the large trail in front of them. After a short distance, I realized I forgot my phone in the truck so we headed back. We met them head on, 4 big guys carrying shotguns and pulling a sled. I recalled Valor and put him in a down. He calmly watched them go by.

After getting my phone and heading back down the trail, we came upon a couple more hunters coming out of the woods. Again, neutral response from the nerd. They asked for directions so I stopped to talk for a few minutes. Valor saw me stop, returned and went down until we were done talking and I started walking again. No commands.

We did some retrieves down a couple hills and then continued down the trail. We met the guys hauling the deer out on the sled. They asked about Valor, so I stopped to talk with them for a bit. Again, he came over and into a down, waiting until I moved. They wanted to see him fetch a bit so I worked him for a few minutes into the woods and some tall grass. At one point, he ran right through them, jumping over the deer with a bumper in his mouth. 

They asked if he was gun shy, so I told them to fire a shot into the hill. He never slowed down heading for the bumper.

Fun times with a fun dog.


----------



## Sabis mom

I love dogs that are just so effortless. Not effortless like couch potato, effortless like "oh we doing that now? ok."
That's what I look for in a dog. 
Every time you describe Valor, I get that "Yes, that's what I want!".


----------



## Sunflowers

I firmly believe that experts make anything seem effortless. That dog is definitely in the right hands.


----------



## Sabis mom

Sunflowers said:


> I firmly believe that experts make anything seem effortless. That dog is definitely in the right hands.


Right! But as my Gram used to say, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I firmly believe that experts make anything seem effortless. That dog is definitely in the right hands.


I'm not an expert in anything


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I'm not an expert in anything


Says the guy who was paid to train thousands of police dogs.


----------



## SuperAndre

Bearshandler said:


> Says the guy who was paid to train thousands of police dogs.


David is just being modest


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I'm not an expert in anything


Well, can you be our expert? You are a Valor expert.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Says the guy who was paid to train thousands of police dogs.


Not thousands. 214 military dogs and I'm not sure how many police dogs, I usually just fixed problems, but it wasn't thousands.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Well, can you be our expert? You are a Valor expert.


I actually made a mistake with him the other night. I woke up to chewing noises. Unauthorized chewing noises. He had one of my Rocky insulated, zip up combat boots and was wrecking it. I gave him a stern verbal correction and swatted him in the face with the boot when I took it away.

He jumped up on the bed in avoidance.

I was upset and shouldn't have given him a physical correction. I know this and made a rash decision.

He's fine. I'm fine. Everyone is fine. I just feel bad about making that mistake.

He's a handler sensitive dog and I know it.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Not thousands. 214 military dogs and I'm not sure how many police dogs, I usually just fixed problems, but it wasn't thousands.


That’s still a lot of dogs. Expert or not, you give a lot of good advice here.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I actually made a mistake with him the other night. I woke up to chewing noises. Unauthorized chewing noises. He had one of my Rocky insulated, zip up combat boots and was wrecking it. I gave him a stern verbal correction and swatted him in the face with the boot when I took it away.
> 
> He jumped up on the bed in avoidance.
> 
> I was upset and shouldn't have given him a physical correction. I know this and made a rash decision.
> 
> He's fine. I'm fine. Everyone is fine. I just feel bad about making that mistake.
> 
> He's a handler sensitive dog and I know it.


Is that only the second thing he’s chewed? That’s a pretty good track record. Bear has a hit list ou of this world. Cion has some casualties too. Somehow I didn’t picture valor has the sensitive type. I guess the way you describe him, he does have a high level of pack drive.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I actually made a mistake with him the other night. I woke up to chewing noises. Unauthorized chewing noises. He had one of my Rocky insulated, zip up combat boots and was wrecking it. I gave him a stern verbal correction and swatted him in the face with the boot when I took it away.
> 
> He jumped up on the bed in avoidance.
> 
> I was upset and shouldn't have given him a physical correction. I know this and made a rash decision.
> 
> He's fine. I'm fine. Everyone is fine. I just feel bad about making that mistake.
> 
> He's a handler sensitive dog and I know it.


Even experts make mistakes. Its what makes us human.


----------



## WNGD

Sabis mom said:


> Right! But as my Gram used to say, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


Well you can but it stinks after awhile and Rogan will eat your purse ....

And David, if you aren't an expert, you still handle Valor expertly


----------



## REEHGE

David Winners said:


> I actually made a mistake with him the other night. I woke up to chewing noises. Unauthorized chewing noises. He had one of my Rocky insulated, zip up combat boots and was wrecking it. I gave him a stern verbal correction and swatted him in the face with the boot when I took it away.
> 
> He jumped up on the bed in avoidance.
> 
> I was upset and shouldn't have given him a physical correction. I know this and made a rash decision.
> 
> He's fine. I'm fine. Everyone is fine. I just feel bad about making that mistake.
> 
> He's a handler sensitive dog and I know it.


Less than optimal decisions will be made occasionally, even by the experts! That's interesting to me though, I had a sneaking suspicion he might be a bit handler sensitive from his body language/expressions in some of the videos, he reminds me of my boy sometimes. 

Does the genetic obedience go hand in hand with a certain level of handler sensitivity?


----------



## David Winners

REEHGE said:


> Less than optimal decisions will be made occasionally, even by the experts! That's interesting to me though, I had a sneaking suspicion he might be a bit handler sensitive from his body language/expressions in some of the videos, he reminds me of my boy sometimes.
> 
> Does the genetic obedience go hand in hand with a certain level of handler sensitivity?


I believe so. He is very forward and in your face with everyone but me. He is always looking to make me happy. 

This is my first go with a genetically obedient dog so you will have to excuse my ignorance to the nuances of such a dog.

It's strange to me. He is very similar to my KNPV working dog in a lot of ways, but he is soft towards me. I'm learning as I go with him, and he is very resilient, so I think I have a chance of making it through without screwing him up.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> I believe so. He is very forward and in your face with everyone but me. He is always looking to make me happy.
> 
> This is my first go with a genetically obedient dog so you will have to excuse my ignorance to the nuances of such a dog.
> 
> It's strange to me. He is very similar to my KNPV working dog in a lot of ways, but he is soft towards me. I'm learning as I go with him, and he is very resilient, so I think I have a chance of making it through without screwing him up.


haha I think you'd have to work hard to screw up a dog like Valor, even for a rook like you


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> haha I think you'd have to work hard to screw up a dog like Valor, even for a rook like you


He's everything I wanted in a dog. I'm looking forward to the next month. We are camping from the 8th through the 31st, at which point he will be 9 months old. I think this is a perfect time for 24/7 time with dad. It will offer us time to refine things a bit and work in some new venues. Things like on leash OB in highly distracting environments will fit right into our trip.


----------



## REEHGE

WNGD said:


> haha I think you'd have to work hard to screw up a dog like Valor, even for a rook like you


Easy on the guy, he said himself he's only trained a couple hundred military dogs before......he'll get there eventually


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> He's everything I wanted in a dog. I'm looking forward to the next month. We are camping from the 8th through the 31st, at which point he will be 9 months old. I think this is a perfect time for 24/7 time with dad. It will offer us time to refine things a bit and work in some new venues. Things like on leash OB in highly distracting environments will fit right into our trip.


Man I remember as a kid taking a 12 week old pup camping on multiple weekends where I couldn't remember most of it the next day and they still turned out all right lol....just followed me around like a puppy I was told


----------



## David Winners




----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> View attachment 568242


What a great way to start / end the day!


----------



## Sabis mom

That picture is calming and relaxing just to look at. Such a handsome boy.


----------



## David Winners

Down on strange stuff is the game of the day.


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Down on strange stuff is the game of the day.
> 
> View attachment 568257


Looks like a lion ready to pounce onto its prey with the bum in the air 😂

Silly boy


----------



## WIBackpacker

David Winners said:


> View attachment 568242


These are some of my favorite winter memories of all my dogs - fireside, content.


----------



## David Winners

Valor and I had an interesting evening. We are on vacation, camping in Florida at an Army campground. We were on a walk after dinner. Valor was in harness on a long line. It was dark and Valor was on high alert. A guy was following us. I was wandering through the campground and he stayed behind us. Valor noticed him as well.

I turned around towards him and he ducked behind the corner of a building. Very shady. He poked his head out a few times. Valor is focused on him at the end of the leash. We take a few steps towards him.

He jumps out, yelling at us. Valor lights up. Big boy bark. All 4 feet off the ground lunging. 

The guy yelled Hey Winners, It's Buddy! Nice dog you got there.


It's one of my trainers from Afghanistan. He's camping at the same campgrounds and saw us walking earlier when they were pulling in.

I about pooped my pants 

Very happy with Valor at 9 months! He chilled right out and said hi after.

He's just a great dog ❤


----------



## Sabis mom

Valor's a good boy!
You have friends like mine lol.


----------



## tim_s_adams

What a great unplanned test! Sounds like he passed with flying colors, not surprisingly...


----------



## SuperAndre

I thought this was going to turn into some dark story. I am glad your friend was just messing with you haha. 
You may have a PPD prospect on your hands too. Good work Valor!


----------



## David Winners

SuperAndre said:


> I thought this was going to turn into some dark story. I am glad your friend was just messing with you haha.
> You may have a PPD prospect on your hands too. Good work Valor!


He's always been a PPD prospect


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Valor's a good boy!
> You have friends like mine lol.


Yes, it's a twisted community for sure 

We are hanging out today. It's been 8 years.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Yes, it's a twisted community for sure
> 
> We are hanging out today. It's been 8 years.


Awesome that you met up and have the time to hang out. Hope you have a good day.

Twisted? Nah. My staff handcuffed me to a steering wheel to teach me a lesson about losing my spare key!


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Valor and I had an interesting evening. We are on vacation, camping in Florida at an Army campground. We were on a walk after dinner. Valor was in harness on a long line. It was dark and Valor was on high alert. A guy was following us. I was wandering through the campground and he stayed behind us. Valor noticed him as well.
> 
> I turned around towards him and he ducked behind the corner of a building. Very shady. He poked his head out a few times. Valor is focused on him at the end of the leash. We take a few steps towards him.
> 
> He jumps out, yelling at us. Valor lights up. Big boy bark. All 4 feet off the ground lunging.
> 
> The guy yelled Hey Winners, It's Buddy! Nice dog you got there.
> 
> 
> It's one of my trainers from Afghanistan. He's camping at the same campgrounds and saw us walking earlier when they were pulling in.
> 
> I about pooped my pants
> 
> Very happy with Valor at 9 months! He chilled right out and said hi after.
> 
> He's just a great dog ❤


Sounds like some of my friends. That’s pretty funny he just decided to test you guys. Did he know about valor before? It’s also a lot of trust that you wouldn’t let him go.


----------



## WNGD

Bearshandler said:


> Sounds like some of my friends. That’s pretty funny he just decided to test you guys. Did he know about valor before? It’s also a lot of trust that you wouldn’t let him go.


Or shoot him ....


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Sounds like some of my friends. That’s pretty funny he just decided to test you guys. Did he know about valor before? It’s also a lot of trust that you wouldn’t let him go.


He saw on Facebook I had a pup, and he knew I wouldn't send a dog without imminent threat. It just happened he saw us out and decided to mess with me.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> He saw on Facebook I had a pup, and he knew I wouldn't send a dog without imminent threat. It just happened he saw us out and decided to mess with me.


When do you plan to start working with a decoy?


----------



## SuperAndre

Bearshandler said:


> When do you plan to start working with a decoy?


What's the oldest a dog could be to start PP training?


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> What's the oldest a dog could be to start PP training?


Oldest? That depends on the dog. I don’t think many dogs work past 8 years of age. PPD aren’t as active as sport dogs though. I wouldn’t look to start past 7 with a dog that’s never had any training. I’ll ask the next time I see Kris.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> When do you plan to start working with a decoy?


Probably 18 months or so unless I decide to title him as well. If that's the case, sooner. It also depends on how busy we get with Nosework this spring and summer.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Probably 18 months or so unless I decide to title him as well. If that's the case, sooner. It also depends on how busy we get with Nosework this spring and summer.


Do you know who your going to work with?


----------



## SuperAndre

Bearshandler said:


> Oldest? That depends on the dog. I don’t think many dogs work past 8 years of age. PPD aren’t as active as sport dogs though. I wouldn’t look to start past 7 with a dog that’s never had any training. I’ll ask the next time I see Kris.


Appreciate it. I thought there would be some foundation work needed to be done or something at an early age.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Do you know who your going to work with?


Chris Wild for SCH, and possibly PP. I'll definitely take him to VLK for PP training as well. I'll work him with a lot of decoys after his foundation is solid and he's mature.


----------



## Fodder

SuperAndre said:


> Appreciate it. I thought there would be some foundation work needed to be done or something at an early age.


as with anything... a proper foundation is going to make things easier and be way more beneficial than none, but a skilled trainer with the right dog can still accomplish a lot. however, with the amount of time and resources that go into working dogs... to train an older dog just to get a years work out of it, isn’t the most practical decision.


----------



## David Winners

8 months

Sit on random objects is the game today.


----------



## WNGD

Still has that great mask


----------



## David Winners

Fetch hill.


----------



## Sabis mom

I love fetch hills. I always run them up the hill to avoid tumbles. Does Valor prefer to run up or down? Does David find it easier to throw up or throw down? 
Reading that sentence, it sounds like something it's not. Lol.


----------



## WNGD

On a regular part of our walk, we get to a very steep valley trail down to the river. Harley often runs to the bottom of the trail looking for squirrels and I just wait at the top and recall him. Twice back up that steep winding trail (it's steep enough that you couldn't run straight up) tuckers him out pretty good. Off to the creek for a drink, along the valley floor and back up, about 40 minutes total.


----------



## David Winners

I throw up the hill and then release him to fetch it. It's tall enough that I can't throw a bumper to the top. He did about 20-25 reps and then we hiked a few miles. We ended up back at that hill and did another 5.


----------



## Sunflowers

He is not even a year old and he already looks mighty impressive.
Can’t wait for a repeat litter.❤


----------



## Sabis mom

Sunflowers said:


> He is not even a year old and he already looks mighty impressive.
> *Can’t wait for a repeat litter.*❤


me neither!


----------



## David Winners

9 months. 

Losing that puppy face.


----------



## SuperAndre

Sunflowers said:


> He is not even a year old and he already looks mighty impressive.
> Can’t wait for a repeat litter.❤


Are you getting a pup when the litter is repeated?


----------



## Sunflowers

SuperAndre said:


> Are you getting a pup when the litter is repeated?


Wish I could, but no.
Way too much dog for me.
But I hear that Saphire is, and I will enjoy watching her raise him. 😏😏😏


----------



## SuperAndre

Sunflowers said:


> Wish I could, but no.
> Way too much dog for me.
> But I hear that Saphire is, and I will enjoy watching her raise him. 😏😏😏


Different Carmspack/Fraserglen pup then?


----------



## Sunflowers

I will not be ready for another GSD for quite a while. It is a challenge meeting the needs of the two I own.


----------



## David Winners

Gus and Valor


----------



## NadDog24

He looks so much like his dad!


----------



## Sabis mom

David do you have any pics of his dam? He sure looks like Dad.


----------



## Dunkirk

David Winners said:


> 9 months.
> 
> Losing that puppy face.
> 
> View attachment 569169


The expression! Valor's focussed, regal dignity.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> David do you have any pics of his dam? He sure looks like Dad.


I don't have any other than what is on the web page. It's a side pic.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Gus and Valor
> View attachment 569170


Gus looks like he’s aging pretty well.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Gus looks like he’s aging pretty well.


Better than me


----------



## Jen84

David Winners said:


> I don't have any other than what is on the web page. It's a side pic.


Here are a couple from PDB. I'm not sure of here age here, but you might be able to figure it out from PDB. There are a couple more pics on there:





__





Ellie Mae Vom Sucherquelle


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Ellie Mae Vom Sucherquelle




www.pedigreedatabase.com






































BTW, Valor is looking super! 💪


----------



## David Winners

Jen84 said:


> Here are a couple from PDB. I'm not sure of here age here, but you might be able to figure it out from PDB. There are a couple more pics on there:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ellie Mae Vom Sucherquelle
> 
> 
> Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Ellie Mae Vom Sucherquelle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, Valor is looking super! 💪


Thanks!

And thanks


----------



## Roscoe618

@David Winners In that video on the early pages of the thread walking near the pond and the muddy section, how old was Valor? Only asking because I take my older dog hiking in everything daily, and just began taking my 11 week old on short hikes in snow which is all we have now. Even without being fully vaccinated yet, I feel keeping them all locked up until fully vaccinated at 16 weeks is too much missed opportunities for exposure. At least for my lifestyle, the exposure reward outweighs the risk of getting sick.


----------



## David Winners

Roscoe618 said:


> @David Winners In that video on the early pages of the thread walking near the pond and the muddy section, how old was Valor? Only asking because I take my older dog hiking in everything daily, and just began taking my 11 week old on short hikes in snow which is all we have now. Even without being fully vaccinated yet, I feel keeping them all locked up until fully vaccinated at 16 weeks is too much missed opportunities for exposure. At least for my lifestyle, the exposure reward outweighs the risk of getting sick.


Check the date. He was born April 30. Came home at 9 weeks. I'm not sure to which video you refer.

I don't wait until 16 weeks to get a puppy out. That's about when the early socialization period ends. I take them to places where few dogs go to reduce risk. I believe that early environmental socialization is critical. I also believe that early recall and fetch training is critical. 

The risk vs reward decision is very individual and depends greatly on the Parvo risk in your area.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> View attachment 569499


Rare sight.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> View attachment 569499


He needs me to cuddle him!


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Better than me


Gus treats himself better than you do


----------



## Roscoe618

David Winners said:


> Check the date. He was born April 30. Came home at 9 weeks. I'm not sure to which video you refer.
> 
> I don't wait until 16 weeks to get a puppy out. That's about when the early socialization period ends. I take them to places where few dogs go to reduce risk. I believe that early environmental socialization is critical. I also believe that early recall and fetch training is critical.
> 
> The risk vs reward decision is very individual and depends greatly on the Parvo risk in your area.


I was referring to the videos on page 4. The date shows 2018 on the video


David Winners said:


> Check the date. He was born April 30. Came home at 9 weeks. I'm not sure to which video you refer.
> 
> I don't wait until 16 weeks to get a puppy out. That's about when the early socialization period ends. I take them to places where few dogs go to reduce risk. I believe that early environmental socialization is critical. I also believe that early recall and fetch training is critical.
> 
> The risk vs reward decision is very individual and depends greatly on the Parvo risk in your area.


I was referring to the videos on page 4. I think the date shows 2018 thats why asked how old the puppy was.


----------



## Roscoe618

I remember reading Valor is dog neutral. When he was a young puppy under 16 weeks, and either on or off leash, how did you address it if he showed high desire to greet another dog in the distance? 
I never exposed my older dogs to this situation until they were much older and already understood leash pressure and manners. I have not taught my 12 week old leash manner yet, and today decided for the first time to put on a flexi lead and go people watching. There was a Husky far way which he was insisting in running to and began getting frustrated when i did not let him, so I just picked him up and removed him from the situation. Based on close up greetings with a few dogs in the last few days he seems dog neutral and I definitely do not want to create leash frustration or reactivity. I do not make corrections at all yet because he does not know the word No and I will not correct for anything this early in our relationship anyway.


----------



## David Winners

Roscoe618 said:


> I was referring to the videos on page 4. The date shows 2018 on the video
> 
> 
> I was referring to the videos on page 4. I think the date shows 2018 thats why asked how old the puppy was.


The title of each video has the date in it. He was born April 30 2020.


----------



## David Winners

Roscoe618 said:


> I remember reading Valor is dog neutral. When he was a young puppy under 16 weeks, and either on or off leash, how did you address it if he showed high desire to greet another dog in the distance?
> I never exposed my older dogs to this situation until they were much older and already understood leash pressure and manners. I have not taught my 12 week old leash manner yet, and today decided for the first time to put on a flexi lead and go people watching. There was a Husky far way which he was insisting in running to and began getting frustrated when i did not let him, so I just picked him up and removed him from the situation. Based on close up greetings with a few dogs in the last few days he seems dog neutral and I definitely do not want to create leash frustration or reactivity. I do not make corrections at all yet because he does not know the word No and I will not correct for anything this early in our relationship anyway.


It depends on your other training. With Valor specifically, I only ever needed to recall him and move on. He never showed high desire to go after another dog. From very early on, he would recall away from another dog in mid play fight. I think you made a good call by picking him up if he was on a flat collar. I use a harness on puppies so I can pull them along on the leash without putting pressure on their neck and/or letting them practice leash pulling.


----------



## David Winners

Hanging with crazy dog lady at the bar.

In all honesty, she's a sweetheart, and former employee of mine. She has a heart of gold and is one of my favorite humans. Valor likes her a lot too


----------



## Sabis mom

I love it! But I thought I was the crazy dog lady?

Your boy is looking pretty growed up!


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I love it! But I thought I was the crazy dog lady?
> 
> Your boy is looking pretty growed up!


I think Suzanne could give you a run for your money 

He's definitely getting that Gus head. I'm very happy with that.

He's at that fun stage where puppy meets adult. I truly enjoy raising puppies into dogs. This stage is particularly interesting as they figure things out.

He is still crazy athletic. At 15°F I'm not sure I could actually wear him out. I had him jumping up and down off a dumpster tonight. He just floats up there.

Super fun dog. I love this nerd.


----------



## Sabis mom

I love raising puppies. I like all the discovery.
He sounds like a truckload of fun. It's going to be cool to see what he grows into.


----------



## WNGD

Sabis mom said:


> I love it! But I thought I was the crazy dog lady?
> 
> Your boy is looking pretty growed up!


Nah, you're craziness goes well beyond dogs


----------



## David Winners

10 months.


















He was helping me at work. We made this together. He picked the colors.


----------



## Bearshandler

He’s getting pretty good with his hands


----------



## Sabis mom

Wow! Good job Valor, oh and David you did ok also. Lol.

He is just a stunningly handsome dog.


----------



## WNGD

Wow, where did the last 8 months go?


----------



## Saphire

My gawd he’s gorgeous ❤❤❤❤


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> My gawd he’s gorgeous ❤❤❤❤


LOL


----------



## NadDog24

I love his serious expression sends shivers up my spine, the good kind.


----------



## David Winners

It's been a while since I posted any video. Here is Valor at 11 months in the same woods where I shot the first videos. Nothing ground breaking here. Just having fun in the woods. We are working a little on down on the other side of objects where I will be out of sight. Anyways, just a look at how he is doing. Super fun dog. Everything I wanted. 

P.S. I fall on my face at some point LOL


----------



## WNGD

Lookin' good
What a great woods to walk, long views this time of year.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> P.S. I fall on my face at some point LOL


I really need to watch this now! LOL. I just tried but I'm too tired right now. Keep loosing focus.


----------



## REEHGE

Just curious, have you checked Valor's height and/or weight recently? He looks pretty sturdy.


----------



## David Winners

I have not. He's very square and thick. I'm going to try to get him into the vet for a weight soon.


----------



## Countrygal

Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!


----------



## SuperAndre

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!
> View attachment 571827


Looks delightful !


----------



## WNGD

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!
> View attachment 571827


Beautiful face. Where are you in Canada?


----------



## Countrygal

WNGD said:


> Beautiful face. Where are you in Canada?


Thanks! I'm Northeast of Toronto.


----------



## David Winners

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!
> View attachment 571827


She's a striking beauty! Thanks for joining and sharing. I'm glad to hear you are enjoying her


----------



## Countrygal

David Winners said:


> She's a striking beauty! Thanks for joining and sharing. I'm glad to hear you are enjoying her


I'm slowly making my way through this thread and noting the many similarities to her bro, including a penchant for eyewear ... 
Seriously, your posts are so helpful in seeing her potential. Love watching how you work with Valor!


----------



## Max’s Owner

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!
> View attachment 571827


yay! Another littermate!


----------



## Jen84

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!
> View attachment 571827


Wow!

Look at the forearms on her. 

She looks like she took alot of the Czech side as far as appearance goes.


----------



## Sunflowers

Countrygal said:


> I'm slowly making my way through this thread and noting the many similarities to her bro, including a penchant for eyewear ...
> Seriously, your posts are so helpful in seeing her potential. Love watching how you work with Valor!


What color collar was she? Pink?


----------



## Countrygal

Jen84 said:


> Wow!
> 
> Look at the forearms on her.
> 
> She looks like she took alot of the Czech side as far as appearance goes.


Yes, she's a sturdy girl for sure, though will probably be a petite shepherd. She tries to keep up with our other GSD (10 years old!) who is a super fast runner. They chase each other around on our 10 acre property. She takes after her Mom in build and her Dad in colouring for the most part.


----------



## Countrygal

Sunflowers said:


> What color collar was she? Pink?


Yes, she was Miss Pink. I believe the smaller of the two females in the litter.


----------



## Sunflowers

Did she stay sweet?
She was the sweetest one in the litter.


----------



## Countrygal

Sunflowers said:


> Did she stay sweet?
> She was the sweetest one in the litter.


Yes, a total snuggler! Loves people, loves to give kisses, follows me from room to room even at this age though she's also quite independent. The other day I saw her trotting up a hill where we had been playing ball. I realized she was trying to find the ball which I had put away without her watching. The first day, even before we got her home, she was responding to Come with incredible enthusiasm and still does. Wish I could take credit, but those are things you can't teach!


----------



## Sabis mom

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!


This litter is turning out just incredible. Fingers crossed I can get a female from the repeat. Love her name!


----------



## David Winners

Blind open area search. Working on directed search patterns. 11 months.


----------



## David Winners

Oh, and I got tangled in the long line at the campground yesterday lol.


----------



## Sabis mom

David, Valor is turning out absolutely amazing. I love watching you two. You falling and getting rope burns is just pure entertainment. Lol. But Valor is awesome! 
Seriously though, those burns really sting! Ouch.


----------



## ksotto333

David Winners said:


> Oh, and I got tangled in the long line at the campground yesterday lol.
> 
> View attachment 572058


Aloe vera, always keep a plant handy.😉


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Blind open area search. Working on directed search patterns. 11 months.


Such a handsome boy!


----------



## tysco

Countrygal said:


> Hi! Here's another littermate from the same litter (Gus x Ellie Mae): Sophie Mae. About to have her first birthday at the end of the month. She's beyond wonderful and a beauty to boot! (May be a bit biased there ...). We are so lucky to have found her!
> View attachment 571827


Welcome!! We have Reya (Miss Red) from the litter!

We will be coming with some updates soon but for now here’s some cute pics!


----------



## Countrygal

What a serene beauty! I'm surprised she turned out to be a black and tan. I believe both girls were described as sables initially. Not that I would have cared either way. I'd love to see her progress!


----------



## tysco

She was freshly groomed in these pictures! In the thread there are some pictures of her from the side/behind and you can tell she is sable from there  

Here is our thread: 
Reya Weekly picture updates - Carmspack Gus x Ellie Mae...


----------



## Fodder

Countrygal said:


> What a serene beauty! I'm surprised she turned out to be a black and tan. I believe both girls were described as sables initially. Not that I would have cared either way. I'd love to see her progress!


it’s not uncommon for patterned sables to be mistaken for black and tan.


----------



## tysco

Fodder said:


> it’s not uncommon for patterned sables to be mistaken for black and tan.


I was wondering why my emails for this forum were going off.. I see my girlfriend has been keeping everyone updated! Lol awesome to see the missing sister on here, hope to see more!

Reya has always had an odd Black and Tan colouring on her chest. Plenty of colour from her mom it seems. I would still consider her a sable colour but I could also be wrong! See below for screenshots I grabbed from some video we took yesterday.


----------



## Fodder

tysco said:


> I was wondering why my emails for this forum were going off.. I see my girlfriend has been keeping everyone updated! Lol awesome to see the missing sister on here, hope to see more!
> 
> Reya has always had an odd Black and Tan colouring on her chest. Plenty of colour from her mom it seems. I would still consider her a sable colour but I could also be wrong! See below for screenshots I grabbed from some video we took yesterday.
> 
> 
> View attachment 572188
> View attachment 572189


patterned sable.


----------



## Countrygal

tysco said:


> She was freshly groomed in these pictures! In the thread there are some pictures of her from the side/behind and you can tell she is sable from there
> 
> Here is our thread:
> Reya Weekly picture updates - Carmspack Gus x Ellie Mae...


I had fun looking at your thread and seeing Reya grow up, many parallels to Sophie! Our girl loves the water, too! Yes, I can now see the sable in her. Sophie is a bit darker and has the dark markings on her paws as well. It's all a matter of degree, I guess. Here's a photo of our black and tan and Sophie from late last summer.


----------



## David Winners

Happy birthday Valor! His party is this evening 

Blind open area search. This is the 3rd large open area of the day. Lots of drive and range. Good athleticism in swampy, uneven terrain. Love this boy.


----------



## Countrygal

Happy Birthday, Valor, Reya, and Max(?)! Here's birthday girl Sophie with her birthday bone.


----------



## Biscuit

Happy birthday Valor, Max, Reya and Sophie 


... must have been a special litter alright


----------



## Sabis mom

@Saphire who is the missing pup? We have 4 and there were 5 right?
Also Sophie needs her own thread, hint, hint. We have the other three. 
@David Winners party pics? And tell that hunk of yours I said happy birthday!


----------



## tysco

Happy birthday to all the siblings! We are looking for a nice pond now that the sun is out again. Hope everyone has a good weekend!


----------



## Saphire

Happy Birthday to all the beautiful and amazing Ellie Mae/Gus puppies. Gus says he is incredibly proud of his pride of puppies. ❤❤


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> @Saphire who is the missing pup? We have 4 and there were 5 right?
> Also Sophie needs her own thread, hint, hint. We have the other three.
> @David Winners party pics? And tell that hunk of yours I said happy birthday!


I will have to check with Sheena to see who we are missing.


----------



## David Winners

Nice sunny pic









And his Cane Corso brother Hank


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> Nice sunny pic
> 
> View attachment 573744
> 
> And his Cane Corso brother Hank
> View attachment 573746


2 handsome boys enjoying a nice day in the sun. Love it!


----------



## Sabis mom

He is stunning! They both are. You are a lucky man.


----------



## WNGD

I like Hank a ton too 
Actually, Hank probably weighs a ton too ....


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> I like Hank a ton too
> Actually, Hank probably weighs a ton too ....


He's about 135


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> He is stunning! They both are. You are a lucky man.


Hank took a solid year of training to approach what I would call a good family dog. It was 3 weeks before I could touch his collar.

I agree that I am incredibly lucky. There may be some karma involved


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Hank took a solid year of training to approach what I would call a good family dog. It was 3 weeks before I could touch his collar.
> 
> I agree that I am incredibly lucky. There may be some karma involved


Good people get great dogs. Sometimes through surprising turns.


----------



## Fodder

David Winners said:


> He's about 135


gasp.
same..
i seriously can’t imagine having that much dog!


----------



## David Winners

Fodder said:


> gasp.
> same..
> i seriously can’t imagine having that much dog!


I grew up in a kennels. We had Saint Bernard Dogs, as well as GSDs. My personal dog ended up over 32" and 240 pounds. He was an early neuter. No body knew better back then. I was 5 and used to walk him through the neighborhood unsupervised. My mother trained dogs for police and prison use. Lots of Rotts back in the 70s. She was 95 pounds soaking wet.

I think I learned early on that controlling a dog is less about physically handling the dog than mentally working with the dog. I wish my mother could have been around to see the developments in training theory and methods.


----------



## Fodder

David Winners said:


> I grew up in a kennels. We had Saint Bernard Dogs, as well as GSDs. My personal dog ended up over 32" and 240 pounds. He was an early neuter. No body knew better back then. I was 5 and used to walk him through the neighborhood unsupervised. My mother trained dogs for police and prison use. Lots of Rotts back in the 70s. She was 95 pounds soaking wet.
> 
> I think I learned early on that controlling a dog is less about physically handling the dog than mentally working with the dog. I wish my mother could have been around to see the developments in training theory and methods.


i don’t worry so much about control and management... they don’t reach that size overnight and i’m a decent enough handler. that’s just a whole other sizable being... in my small house and small car. and the hair! and that food bill! and lifting when old or injured. i’ll pass 😛


----------



## David Winners

Fodder said:


> i don’t worry so much about control and management... they don’t reach that size overnight and i’m a decent enough handler. that’s just a whole other sizable being... in my small house and small car. and the hair! and that food bill! and lifting when old or injured. i’ll pass 😛


And the pooper scooper requirements


----------



## Fodder

David Winners said:


> And the pooper scooper requirements


omg 🙈
yes, that too.... forgot tiny yard!!


----------



## WNGD

I had a girlfriend with a Mastiff walking around weight 170 but they get a lot bigger.
Nowhere near athletic or agile enough for me. We'd go on hikes with my GSD and that dog would be done in 20 minutes.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## dogma13

Aww!He looks like Grandpa


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> I had a girlfriend with a Mastiff walking around weight 170 but they get a lot bigger.
> Nowhere near athletic or agile enough for me. We'd go on hikes with my GSD and that dog would be done in 20 minutes.


Hank can hike all day. He isn't nearly as agile as Valor, and he spends more time walking than running, but he can keep up. The CC, American bulldog, Rottie sized molosser breeds are a happy medium between high maintenance and slug.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I grew up in a kennels. We had Saint Bernard Dogs, as well as GSDs. My personal dog ended up over 32" and 240 pounds. He was an early neuter. No body knew better back then. I was 5 and used to walk him through the neighborhood unsupervised. My mother trained dogs for police and prison use. Lots of Rotts back in the 70s. She was 95 pounds soaking wet.
> 
> I think I learned early on that controlling a dog is less about physically handling the dog than mentally working with the dog. I wish my mother could have been around to see the developments in training theory and methods.


I was a tiny kid. Like barely 50 lbs at 10. No way could I have muscled the dogs I was around. Plus I worked horses. 
It's a lesson more people should learn. Your mom sounds like an amazing woman.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I was a tiny kid. Like barely 50 lbs at 10. No way could I have muscled the dogs I was around. Plus I worked horses.
> It's a lesson more people should learn. Your mom sounds like an amazing woman.


Thank you, and yes she was.


----------



## David Winners

I worked all day. I took the nerd out this morning and did some big open area searches. He was worked out.

The wife had both the grand babies today for 4 hours. She said Valor was awesome. He was playing fetch with the 1yo with no adult intervention. Lots of chill/snuggle on the couch. Good manners with the toddler walking around.

We went to my buddies house after work. He's going off the dock into the pond and retrieving from as far as I can throw a bumper.

OB is getting sharper in the last couple weeks. He's just snapper in his movements and compliance. I've done some NePoPo e-collar stuff so that may have some effect on that area.

He's definitely maturing in fantastic ways. His willingness to please is growing. His patience and impulse control are growing. His cardio and athleticism is growing. His hunt drive is crazy.

Yesterday, he held a down stay in the middle of a path while a family of 7 walked around him. No stim. No commands other than the initial down as they approached. They stopped and we had a conversation while he was surrounded by strange children. He just laid his head down on his paws.

I'm just really impressed with this dog, and he just keeps getting better. He's almost 13 months and he should be a compete jerk right now. This is really fun. My wife is not a GSD girl. She's a molosser girl. Last night, she said "I never thought I'd say this, but I would totally get a German Shepherd like him. He's just a great dog."

I love this dog.


----------



## David Winners

We are camping on South Bass Island. Home of Put-In Bay. Mini Key West. Lots of bars with outdoor seating. Golf carts running everywhere. Generally intoxicated participants in the island wide party everywhere.

We went bar hopping for 5 hours with the dogs. Lots of attention, loud music and people, other dogs... Loads of fun.

Valor is very attentive to his surroundings but calm. Willing to meet people but generally uninterested in doing so. Just a good boy.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> We are camping on South Bass Island. Home of Put-In Bay. Mini Key West. Lots of bars with outdoor seating. Golf carts running everywhere. Generally intoxicated participants in the island wide party everywhere.
> 
> We went bar hopping for 5 hours with the dogs. Lots of attention, loud music and people, other dogs... Loads of fun.
> 
> Valor is *very attentive to his surroundings but calm. Willing to meet people but generally uninterested in doing so. *Just a good boy.


Breed standard. Good boy!


----------



## David Winners

This is how we watch TV 

I regularly do long down stays as well.


----------



## Sunflowers

I still can’t get over how much he looks like Gus 💚💙


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I still can’t get over how much he looks like Gus 💚💙


That's a very good thing


----------



## REEHGE

Looks like he'd watch that show all day with you!


----------



## David Winners

I ran sound at an outdoor event today. I took Valor for setup and he stayed for the whole event. He was off leash the whole time. 

He's just a go everywhere, do everything dog. I let him roam as he pleased. There was about a hundred people in the audience. Lawn chairs and picnic tables kind of thing. He would occasionally wander around and say hi to newcomers and then make his way back and lay down.

I love this dog.


----------



## Sunflowers

By his face, that wasn’t his kind of music LOL 😁


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> By his face, that wasn’t his kind of music LOL 😁
> View attachment 575210


Lol... He had fun regardless


----------



## GSDchoice

Sounds like he had a blast!

So happy that life is beginning to open up again. 😊

Going to my first "jam" next Saturday. They still ask for masking though, and I've never tried to play a stringed instrument for 2 hours while wearing a mask, so it could be utterly Miserable...
will just leave early if I can't take it!
I'm also curious about what the people who sing, do. 😷


----------



## David Winners

GSDchoice said:


> Sounds like he had a blast!
> 
> So happy that life is beginning to open up again. 😊
> 
> Going to my first "jam" next Saturday. They still ask for masking though, and I've never tried to play a stringed instrument for 2 hours while wearing a mask, so it could be utterly Miserable...
> will just leave early if I can't take it!
> I'm also curious about what the people who sing, do. 😷


All our restrictions are removed.


----------



## SuperAndre

Looked like fun!


----------



## David Winners

First time on a boat. By the end of the afternoon, he was diving off the bow, retrieving and coming back up the ladder by himself.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> First time on a boat. By the end of the afternoon, he was diving off the bow, retrieving and coming back up the ladder by himself.


He’s maturing into a nice dog.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> He’s maturing into a nice dog.


Yeah. I like him a lot. 

We were at my brother in law's. They have a APBT and an American Bulldog. They got along very well with both my dogs. Apparently that's a first as they were worried about it.

The APBT had a seizure in the other room and Valor jumped up from under the table and went to check on her. We wouldn't have known otherwise. 

Valor also jumped up on the front rack of a 4 wheeler and rode through the woods with me. First time. No training.

He's just a good dog with dog nerves and a do anything attitude. In all honesty, that's more important to me than protection work, though I feel he will do well.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Yeah. I like him a lot.
> 
> We were at my brother in law's. They have a APBT and an American Bulldog. They got along very well with both my dogs. Apparently that's a first as they were worried about it.
> 
> The APBT had a seizure in the other room and Valor jumped up from under the table and went to check on her. We wouldn't have known otherwise.
> 
> Valor also jumped up on the front rack of a 4 wheeler and rode through the woods with me. First time. No training.
> 
> He's just a good dog with dog nerves and a do anything attitude. In all honesty, that's more important to me than protection work, though I feel he will do well.


I’d certainly rather have a dog with a good attitude and strong nerves than a dog with weak nerves and amazing protection work.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I’d certainly rather have a dog with a good attitude and strong nerves than a dog with weak nerves and amazing protection work.


Oh I concur. That's a liability.


----------



## David Winners

I'm officially a fur daddy. I'm teaching him to sit pretty.

Day 1


----------



## crowconor

David Winners said:


> I'm officially a fur daddy. I'm teaching him to sit pretty.
> 
> Day 1


Man, he is a real handsome pup. You can see the focus he has just through this small clip. Beautiful dog!


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I'm officially a fur daddy. I'm teaching him to sit pretty.
> 
> Day 1


You’ve settled into semi retirement quite well.


----------



## David Winners

crowconor said:


> Man, he is a real handsome pup. You can see the focus he has just through this small clip. Beautiful dog!


He is very handler centric. And thank you! I think he is quite the handsome boy. He looks like his daddy.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> You’ve settled into semi retirement quite well.


Now that's funny right there.

I think I like you more every day.


----------



## Fodder

David Winners said:


> I'm officially a fur daddy. I'm teaching him to sit pretty.
> 
> Day 1


i mean, you can redeem yourself but calling it something cool 😛


----------



## David Winners

Fodder said:


> i mean, you can redeem yourself but calling it something cool 😛


Maybe HAAAAAYYYY


----------



## WNGD

My dogs LOVE the boat, any boat. Pontoon boat, ski boat, Zodiac, paddle board, canoe and tried to climb into a kayak with me ..... that one was a hard no.

Valor looks pretty relaxed to me there except trying to get away from that bad music


----------



## SuperAndre

David Winners said:


> I'm officially a fur daddy. I'm teaching him to sit pretty.
> 
> Day 1


Too cute hahaha


----------



## NadDog24

That’s so cute, Valor is such a cool dog!


----------



## David Winners

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I went to the Carmspack website and saw no working titles on any of them, I also didn't see a family tree with any dogs who have worked. Why isn't that information on the website?


When I have time, I'll move your posts to another thread.

Carmen has bred working dogs for 40 years. I'm a long time working dog trainer. Let's just say that I have trained enough dogs to know what I want in a dog.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> When I have time, I'll move your posts to another thread.
> 
> Carmen has bred working dogs for 40 years. I'm a long time working dog trainer. Let's just say that I have trained enough dogs to know what I want in a dog.


I already started that thread. 

Valor is a good boat dog. He is looking all handsome laying there. Hopefully his baby sister will be as comfortable, since she will be sailing with me!


----------



## David Winners

Valor and Max on gotcha day.


----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> Valor and Max on gotcha day.


❤❤❤❤ lol I cried


----------



## Sunflowers

Wow, this seems like yesterday, I can’t believe it already has been a year!
I remember how Valor was not available, and then, all of a sudden, he was. All of the stars aligned correctly, and I was so overjoyed to see you get him, David.
Enjoy, I believe he was meant to be yours.

Max and me. 🤣🤣


----------



## NadDog24

Oh how time flies! Hard to believe they were once that small


----------



## David Winners

Nerd update.

Valor is 14-1/2 months now, and this weekend inspired me to write an update. 

We went camping with 2 of the grandkids for a week. It rained the whole time. Lots of quality time in the lake and the mud. Valor was off leash 90% of the time with just an e-collar for safety. I think I stimmed him 3 times when he broke a down because a strange dog came into our campsite. He took turns sleeping by each grandkid for a while and then rotating. He is very at ease in almost all situations. He does well on a tie out, even when he is separated from me by some distance. Settles well in the camper. Settles well in the truck when setting up and loading out. Sleeps while we are on the road.

The same day we got back, he kids went on vacation for a few days so we watched their Rough Collie puppy, male 4 months, pretty much no training but he is an easy dog. Valor and Ollie have met a few times so I wasn't concerned at all. It has been raining buckets here for a week now and everything is flooded and soggy. I took the pup and the nerd out to adventure a couple times. It was very interesting how different Valor plays with a soft puppy, compared to his behavior with his big brother Cane Corso. 

Ollie was timid at first as he has never been outside his back yard with the exception of an occasional on leash walk around their neighborhood. I know. He's my kid and I expect more but they have 2 babies under 2 and in diapers and he works 60 hours a week. I tried to talk them out of getting a dog, but alas, humans are harder to train than dogs. Valor was very easy on Ollie, running by him trying to get him to play, instead of rolling him around like a tackling dummy. It wasn't long before Ollie was along for the adventure with ears up, tail wagging and a smile on his really, really long face. Valor would readily share toys with Ollie and slow down when playing chase so Ollie could catch him.

Ollie woke up having to pee at 3am, so I took him out in the dog yard and came back inside. Valor then decided that he was going to teach Ollie how to use the double flap dog door to get back in. I didn't intervene in any way. I just observed. Ollie would whine over by the man door, trying to get someone to let him in. Valor would go out the dog door, go over to Ollie and then come back in through the dog door, turning around and sticking his head out to check and see if Ollie was coming. This went on for 10 minutes until Ollie finally came in. When Ollie was close to the dog door, Valor would just stick his nose out and then pull it back. When he went further away, Valor would go all the way out and lead him back through the dog door.

Last night, we attended a birthday party for my niece who is visiting from the PNW. My cousin owns a winery that is closed on Sundays, so she hosted the family get together. There were 30 people in attendance, ages baby through really old. It was a fun affair with lots of attention on Valor at times. The little kids were playing with him whenever he would give in to their plies. The winery is downtown on a reasonably busy (for a small town) street. We parked a couple blocks away and walked off leash to the winery. Several people stopped me to ask about Valor. He was ranging about 10 feet in front of me, sniffing things out. Whenever I would stop to talk, he would just lay down, focus on me, and wait for me to move again. No commands, just habits. 

He was fantastic at the party. He had only met a couple of the people there, and that was when he was a little pup. He was at ease with everyone, not begging for attention at all but not uncomfortable when someone wanted to give him some loving. Lots of little kids in his face. There were 4 rooms on the first floor that he readily explored with the kids. He would bring appropriate toys to them to play. They have a dog that comes to work with them, but she wasn't there for the party. Valor managed to identify the dog toys and left everything else alone. He didn't bother anyone while we were eating and held a down stay in a spot where a few people had to step over him a couple times. His excitement level was never inappropriate. We went upstairs, which is a large, empty room under construction, and played some fetch. He cranked it up to 11 for a few minutes, leaping up onto scaffolding and such. When we went back down to the party, he chilled right out again.

I am impressed with his nerves, his discernment for the given situation, his understanding of appropriate behavior, his desire to work with me, his intelligence and his kindness. He can go from 0-100-0 without frustration or leaking. He puts up with kids and puppies and enjoys their company most of the time. When the kids get out of hand, he just comes to me and lays down for a break. He is social and aloof. He is comfortable with strangers of all types but rarely seeks them out asking for attention, unless it's a woman making oggie boogie noises while squatting down. He is very comfortable in new situations and places, taking everything in stride, looking to me for guidance. 

He is built like a tank. Big feet. Big bones. Big head. Moves very well. He is quick and fast and has impressive ups. He hasn't had the slightest of injuries or medical issues other than the occasional scrape or cut from playing rough with other dogs or running through thorns. I regularly break all the "modern" rules of puppy raising. He runs too much, jumps too high, plays too long in the heat, carries things in his mouth, goes to the dog park when the other dogs are of appropriate temperament, sleeps in bed with me, gets on all the furniture, jumps up on me to say hi and sometimes to get me to throw the toy, is never crated and is rarely on a leash. 

I got a great dog and I put in the work. I think we are a fantastic team and I look forward to what the future holds with this nerd. I have been slacking on Nosework training as I want to make some videos showing his TFR training and I need a camera man to accomplish this, and I'm a procrastinator  He is task training well. He will pick anything up off the floor and hand it to me. He looks forward to Monday laundry time as he gets the opportunity to retrieve dropped socks for treats. He is learning sit pretty and stand pretty which will eventually become licking my face to help with PTSD. I am training it in steps because I think that if I go straight to kisses from the floor, it will be a fly by kind of maneuver. 

TL;DR - he's a great dog.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Nerd update.
> 
> Valor is 14-1/2 months now, and this weekend inspired me to write an update.
> 
> We went camping with 2 of the grandkids for a week. It rained the whole time. Lots of quality time in the lake and the mud. Valor was off leash 90% of the time with just an e-collar for safety. I think I stimmed him 3 times when he broke a down because a strange dog came into our campsite. He took turns sleeping by each grandkid for a while and then rotating. He is very at ease in almost all situations. He does well on a tie out, even when he is separated from me by some distance. Settles well in the camper. Settles well in the truck when setting up and loading out. Sleeps while we are on the road.
> 
> The same day we got back, he kids went on vacation for a few days so we watched their Rough Collie puppy, male 4 months, pretty much no training but he is an easy dog. Valor and Ollie have met a few times so I wasn't concerned at all. It has been raining buckets here for a week now and everything is flooded and soggy. I took the pup and the nerd out to adventure a couple times. It was very interesting how different Valor plays with a soft puppy, compared to his behavior with his big brother Cane Corso.
> 
> Ollie was timid at first as he has never been outside his back yard with the exception of an occasional on leash walk around their neighborhood. I know. He's my kid and I expect more but they have 2 babies under 2 and in diapers and he works 60 hours a week. I tried to talk them out of getting a dog, but alas, humans are harder to train than dogs. Valor was very easy on Ollie, running by him trying to get him to play, instead of rolling him around like a tackling dummy. It wasn't long before Ollie was along for the adventure with ears up, tail wagging and a smile on his really, really long face. Valor would readily share toys with Ollie and slow down when playing chase so Ollie could catch him.
> 
> Ollie woke up having to pee at 3am, so I took him out in the dog yard and came back inside. Valor then decided that he was going to teach Ollie how to use the double flap dog door to get back in. I didn't intervene in any way. I just observed. Ollie would whine over by the man door, trying to get someone to let him in. Valor would go out the dog door, go over to Ollie and then come back in through the dog door, turning around and sticking his head out to check and see if Ollie was coming. This went on for 10 minutes until Ollie finally came in. When Ollie was close to the dog door, Valor would just stick his nose out and then pull it back. When he went further away, Valor would go all the way out and lead him back through the dog door.
> 
> Last night, we attended a birthday party for my niece who is visiting from the PNW. My cousin owns a winery that is closed on Sundays, so she hosted the family get together. There were 30 people in attendance, ages baby through really old. It was a fun affair with lots of attention on Valor at times. The little kids were playing with him whenever he would give in to their plies. The winery is downtown on a reasonably busy (for a small town) street. We parked a couple blocks away and walked off leash to the winery. Several people stopped me to ask about Valor. He was ranging about 10 feet in front of me, sniffing things out. Whenever I would stop to talk, he would just lay down, focus on me, and wait for me to move again. No commands, just habits.
> 
> He was fantastic at the party. He had only met a couple of the people there, and that was when he was a little pup. He was at ease with everyone, not begging for attention at all but not uncomfortable when someone wanted to give him some loving. Lots of little kids in his face. There were 4 rooms on the first floor that he readily explored with the kids. He would bring appropriate toys to them to play. They have a dog that comes to work with them, but she wasn't there for the party. Valor managed to identify the dog toys and left everything else alone. He didn't bother anyone while we were eating and held a down stay in a spot where a few people had to step over him a couple times. His excitement level was never inappropriate. We went upstairs, which is a large, empty room under construction, and played some fetch. He cranked it up to 11 for a few minutes, leaping up onto scaffolding and such. When we went back down to the party, he chilled right out again.
> 
> I am impressed with his nerves, his discernment for the given situation, his understanding of appropriate behavior, his desire to work with me, his intelligence and his kindness. He can go from 0-100-0 without frustration or leaking. He puts up with kids and puppies and enjoys their company most of the time. When the kids get out of hand, he just comes to me and lays down for a break. He is social and aloof. He is comfortable with strangers of all types but rarely seeks them out asking for attention, unless it's a woman making oggie boogie noises while squatting down. He is very comfortable in new situations and places, taking everything in stride, looking to me for guidance.
> 
> He is built like a tank. Big feet. Big bones. Big head. Moves very well. He is quick and fast and has impressive ups. He hasn't had the slightest of injuries or medical issues other than the occasional scrape or cut from playing rough with other dogs or running through thorns. I regularly break all the "modern" rules of puppy raising. He runs too much, jumps too high, plays too long in the heat, carries things in his mouth, goes to the dog park when the other dogs are of appropriate temperament, sleeps in bed with me, gets on all the furniture, jumps up on me to say hi and sometimes to get me to throw the toy, is never crated and is rarely on a leash.
> 
> I got a great dog and I put in the work. I think we are a fantastic team and I look forward to what the future holds with this nerd. I have been slacking on Nosework training as I want to make some videos showing his TFR training and I need a camera man to accomplish this, and I'm a procrastinator  He is task training well. He will pick anything up off the floor and hand it to me. He looks forward to Monday laundry time as he gets the opportunity to retrieve dropped socks for treats. He is learning sit pretty and stand pretty which will eventually become licking my face to help with PTSD. I am training it in steps because I think that if I go straight to kisses from the floor, it will be a fly by kind of maneuver.
> 
> TL;DR - he's a great dog.


One of the reasons I chose German shepherds over malinois is I wanted a dog who go anywhere,function in any environment, and handle any changes in lifestyle at a moments notice. I love hearing about valor living in a similar fashion. You guys certainly make a great team.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> have been slacking on Nosework training as I want to make some videos showing his TFR training and I need a camera man to accomplish this, and I'm a procrastinator


If you buy one I will🤣🤣 I’d make more videos of I had a camera man too.








Pivo | Create Better - Holiday Sales - Up to 50% off


The world's most versatile AI-powered smartphone mounts. Pivo’s 360° motion tracking helps solo creators, horse riders, and athletes level up their content. Shop our Holiday deals now!




getpivo.com


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> If you buy one I will🤣🤣 I’d make more videos of I had a camera man too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pivo | Create Better - Holiday Sales - Up to 50% off
> 
> 
> The world's most versatile AI-powered smartphone mounts. Pivo’s 360° motion tracking helps solo creators, horse riders, and athletes level up their content. Shop our Holiday deals now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> getpivo.com


Like like a reasonable solution. Thanks!


----------



## Sabis mom

I love reading your updates! This dog of yours is my dream, exactly what I want. 
You and Valor are an amazing team.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I love reading your updates! This dog of yours is my dream, exactly what I want.
> You and Valor are an amazing team.


I'm right there with ya


----------



## ksotto333

Come over to Carey, Ohio and I'll film. 🙂


----------



## David Winners

ksotto333 said:


> Come over to Carey, Ohio and I'll film. 🙂


We have been thinking about camping at Van Buren State Park. I'll let you know if we plan a trip down your way!


----------



## ksotto333

We've camped there with our granddaughter, half is horse camping. It was nice hearing the horses at night. Very small campground.


----------



## WNGD

Nothing but a big ol' thumbs up for you David. I love it when a plan comes together .... I'm sitting up by the lake in the boathouse with both dogs watching a big thunderstorm....both dogs just laying on the dock with me calmly waiting for the thunderboomers to pass so we can get on with our day; nothing like these dogs


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Nothing but a big ol' thumbs up for you David. I love it when a plan comes together .... I'm sitting up by the lake in the boathouse with both dogs watching a big thunderstorm....both dogs just laying on the dock with me calmly waiting for the thunderboomers to pass so we can get on with our day; nothing like these dogs


I agree that there is nothing like a good GSD. They are like lab x lion offspring. Does it really get better than that?


----------



## David Winners

Progress with sit pretty. The new command is HAAAAYYYY.

Detailed video coming


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Progress with sit pretty. The new command is HAAAAYYYY.
> 
> Detailed video coming


Looks like he nailed that one. That’s not the easiest trick for me to teach.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Looks like he nailed that one. That’s not the easiest trick for me to teach.


It happened incidentally with a chunk of steak, so I used those same circumstances to capture it and then went from there. I have a camera man lined up for this weekend to do some Nosework videos and I plan on getting a few of the HAAYYYY training as well. I can walk around him and he will hold it some of the time.


----------



## David Winners

Hot out this morning.


----------



## Sunflowers

David, please, please start a blog.
You are such a great writer and Valor is such a good subject. 
I’m sure I’m not the only one who would love reading it!


----------



## tim_s_adams

Yeah David, in your "spare" time, start a blog! Not picking on you @Sunflowers, just couldn't help myself!


----------



## Sunflowers

tim_s_adams said:


> Yeah David, in your "spare" time, start a blog! Not picking on you @Sunflowers, just couldn't help myself!


Well, he did find time to write a whole book while serving in the military, so, yeah...


----------



## tim_s_adams

Sunflowers said:


> Well, he did find time to write a whole book while serving in the military, so, yeah...


Yeah I'd follow his blog too! It's just that, he said they're selling their house and he does have other commitments it seems...


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Well, he did find time to write a whole book while serving in the military, so, yeah...


When I wrote the Fama story, I was fresh back from deployment, so no work for a month, on my way out of the Army to go contract, so no work besides the occasional appointment, and my family was back in Ohio so I was living in my friend's spare bedroom avoiding their screaming kids.

I'm not sure what I would write about, but if I started writing, I'm sure stuff would come.


----------



## David Winners

15 months!


----------



## Sabis mom

He just gets more and more stunning. That is one handsome boy.


----------



## REEHGE

Camera man fall through for the nosework videos??


----------



## Sabis mom

REEHGE said:


> Camera man fall through for the nosework videos??


I may start stalking David. If I do I will share the videos!


----------



## REEHGE

Sabis mom said:


> I may start stalking David. If I do I will share the videos!


Works for me!


----------



## NadDog24

He is simply breathtaking! I hope I can get a pup from the repeat breeding of this litter.


----------



## David Winners

REEHGE said:


> Camera man fall through for the nosework videos??


Yes. Pretty much everything fell through lol


----------



## David Winners

Started informal dock diving today. I put a restaurant rug at the end for traction and he's really starting to jump with confidence. It could be a thing we do.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Started informal dock diving today. I put a restaurant rug at the end for traction and he's really starting to jump with confidence. It could be a thing we do.


Do you have a pool, river, lake? Some dogs just live for diving to the point of exhaustion; great exercise


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Started informal dock diving today. I put a restaurant rug at the end for traction and he's really starting to jump with confidence. It could be a thing we do.


That sounds fun! I love dogs that just want to try anything. The rug was a great idea.


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Do you have a pool, river, lake? Some dogs just live for diving to the point of exhaustion; great exercise


Pond with a dock a couple feet out of the water. He had been jumping off gingerly until recently. Once he showed some confidence, I decided to see if he would really launch. I'm putting him in a down stay, walking to the end of the dock with a bumper, releasing him and throwing the bumper just out ahead of him.

He's going out about 10' to his back legs. He's starting to really dig in.


----------



## Sunflowers

Pics or it didn’t happen.


----------



## David Winners

I'll shoot video next time


----------



## David Winners




----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I'll shoot video next time


Promises, promises!

How exactly does that dog of yours keep getting better looking?


----------



## David Winners

Gus.


----------



## tim_s_adams

David Winners said:


> Gus.
> View attachment 576963


He's such a magnificent looking specimen!


----------



## David Winners

Fun at the pond.










He had better jumps later in the day. I think I'm going to put carpet on the dock.


----------



## WNGD

Put a cape on him!


----------



## AKD

David Winners said:


> Started informal dock diving today. I put a restaurant rug at the end for traction and he's really starting to jump with confidence. It could be a thing we do.


We took Trinity last week and she jumped right away, I was not expecting it so was not prepared with right technique or methods to maximize jumps. Going again this Sunday (weather permitting) and have seen a few videos lets see. Last time she was still pausing a bit prior to diving the goal this Sunday is to get past the pause, once that happens I think the distance will come.


----------



## David Winners

Yeah. He's spoiled ❤


----------



## WNGD

I'm a "fan" of his ....


----------



## Galathiel

David Winners said:


> Yeah. He's spoiled ❤


If he's spoiled, then you may need to increase the speed or lower the temperature.


----------



## David Winners

Almost 18 months. Not a great pic through the window zoomed in.


----------



## Sunflowers

Good lord.
If you told me that was Gus, I would believe you.


----------



## WNGD

How the heck can he be 18 months already, he was a tiny pup a few months ago
Then again, Rogan will be 2 next month and I feel like we just got him ....


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> How the heck can he be 18 months already, he was a tiny pup a few months ago
> Then again, Rogan will be 2 next month and I feel like we just got him ....


That means you're (me included) getting old.


----------



## ausdland

How much does he weigh? Hunt drive? Is Carmen still breeding? I know she bought a pup from my breeder ~7 years ago out of an amazing female-Jorka. I'll be looking for another sar pup next year.


----------



## Sabis mom

We don't get nearly enough Valor updates! 
David, I'm very disappointed in your behavior lately 🤣


----------



## David Winners

ausdland said:


> How much does he weigh? Hunt drive? Is Carmen still breeding? I know she bought a pup from my breeder ~7 years ago out of an amazing female-Jorka. I'll be looking for another sar pup next year.


He's about 78 pounds. Hunt drive is as good as I've seen and he's still young. There are videos up this thread. I'll drop a couple here and you can check out my YouTube for the rest. The plan is to repeat this breeding.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> The plan is to repeat this breeding.


Stop selling my puppy!


----------



## Saphire

All pups from next breeding must live in Orillia so I can admire them whenever I want lol.
I just cannot believe how Valor is a clone of Gus.


----------



## Sabis mom

Saphire said:


> All pups from next breeding must live in Orillia so I can admire them whenever I want lol.
> I just cannot believe how Valor is a clone of Gus.


So me and the Punk are moving in with you? Is Valor just on a visitation schedule?


----------



## finn'smom

Saphire said:


> All pups from next breeding must live in Orillia so I can admire them whenever I want lol.
> I just cannot believe how Valor is a clone of Gus.


Orillia is close enough I can go admire lol for a day here and there!!!


----------



## David Winners

ausdland said:


> How much does he weigh? Hunt drive? Is Carmen still breeding? I know she bought a pup from my breeder ~7 years ago out of an amazing female-Jorka. I'll be looking for another sar pup next year.


I'm a former military dog trainer and I have worked with a few SAR teams, helping them through a few issues. 

I would consider Valor an outstanding SAR candidate. He is environmentally bomb proof. He will hunt through anything and he doesn't give up. He is structurally sound, big bones, big feet, and very athletic but not overly large. He's about 25" and 78-80 pounds. He is very handler oriented and biddable, but can be pushy. He is friendly without being overly social with strangers. He's got plenty of prey drive for training but the hunt and handler interaction is more important. He's not overly possessive or crazy to chase anything that moves. He doesn't leak at all. He will ride in a car without fuss for 8 hours. He is fine in a crate and fine not in a crate.

If you have more specific questions or want to see something specific, let me know.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I'm a former military dog trainer and I have worked with a few SAR teams, helping them through a few issues.
> 
> I would consider Valor an outstanding SAR candidate. He is environmentally bomb proof. He will hunt through anything and he doesn't give up. He is structurally sound, big bones, big feet, and very athletic but not overly large. He's about 25" and 78-80 pounds. He is very handler oriented and biddable, but can be pushy. He is friendly without being overly social with strangers. He's got plenty of prey drive for training but the hunt and handler interaction is more important. He's not overly possessive or crazy to chase anything that moves. He doesn't leak at all. He will ride in a car without fuss for 8 hours. He is fine in a crate and fine not in a crate.
> 
> If you have more specific questions or want to see something specific, let me know.


I really am hoping to get a female of this breeding and since detection and tracking are my two primary interests I am thrilled by your description of Valor. 
I will likely never work another dog but I am interested in the training. 
Valor sounds like he is maturing exactly as I thought, and he is gorgeous which is the icing on the cake. Should the timing prove problematic @Saphire will just have to puppysit for a minute.


----------



## REEHGE

David Winners said:


> I'm a former military dog trainer and I have worked with a few SAR teams, helping them through a few issues.
> 
> I would consider Valor an outstanding SAR candidate. He is environmentally bomb proof. He will hunt through anything and he doesn't give up. He is structurally sound, big bones, big feet, and very athletic but not overly large. He's about 25" and 78-80 pounds. He is very handler oriented and biddable, but can be pushy. He is friendly without being overly social with strangers. He's got plenty of prey drive for training but the hunt and handler interaction is more important. He's not overly possessive or crazy to chase anything that moves. He doesn't leak at all. He will ride in a car without fuss for 8 hours. He is fine in a crate and fine not in a crate.
> 
> If you have more specific questions or want to see something specific, let me know.


This made me wonder if you are still day-watching Captain and out of curiosity what you would say of an overall comparison between Valor and Captain at this point? Nerves/confidence, biddability, aloofness/sociability, prey drive, energy, and/or any personality trait whether similar or different that comes to mind.


----------



## SuperAndre

Sabis mom said:


> I really am hoping to get a female of this breeding and since detection and tracking are my two primary interests I am thrilled by your description of Valor.
> I will likely never work another dog but I am interested in the training.
> Valor sounds like he is maturing exactly as I thought, and he is gorgeous which is the icing on the cake. Should the timing prove problematic @Saphire will just have to puppysit for a minute.


When's the next Gus x Ellie Mae litter and are you confirmed getting a puppy?!?!?


----------



## Sunflowers

SuperAndre said:


> When's the next Gus x Ellie Mae litter and are you confirmed getting a puppy?!?!?


Whew EllieMae comes into heat this fall, and, yes, she is.


----------



## SuperAndre

Sunflowers said:


> Whew EllieMae comes into heat this fall, and, yes, she is.


Super exciting. Are you getting a pup too?


----------



## Sunflowers

SuperAndre said:


> Super exciting. Are you getting a pup too?


If I could, I would, but too much dog for me. Plus, I have two, and two is my limit.

But I will live vicariously through @Saphire, who is keeping one this time.


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> That means you're (me included) getting old.


No doubt  
Or there's time's stealers out there grabbing chunks of our lives and erasing them and stitching the timeline back together .....


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> If I could, I would, but too much dog for me. Plus, I have two, and two is my limit.
> 
> But I will live vicariously through @Saphire, who is keeping one this time.


Bahahahahahaha I wish I could but I want to give Gus his golden years without a pestering puppy


----------



## Sabis mom

Saphire said:


> Bahahahahahaha I wish I could but I want to give Gus his golden years without a pestering puppy


But you will still get mine to puppysit! Right?


----------



## Sabis mom

Valor is turning out to be exactly what I want in a dog. And my brief meeting with Gus confirmed my opinion of him. 
I like pushy dogs, I like handler oriented dogs, I like confident dogs. I want a pup with the ability to be a working dog that lives in a pet home.
That's a tall order, and breeders that can make that happen are few and far between.
I watch this thread somewhat with scepticism but so far Valor is turning out to be exactly what was promised. He is stunning, intelligent and healthy with all the traits I was looking for.


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> But you will still get mine to puppysit! Right?


I might be persuaded to puppysit. Any pup that is exposed to schipps, seems to be bomb proof lol


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> Bahahahahahaha I wish I could but I want to give Gus his golden years without a pestering puppy


😭😭😭😭😭


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> 😭😭😭😭😭


Yep it was a tough decision. I will wait for a grand puppy


----------



## NadDog24

Oh how I want a pup from the repeat breeding! Sadly, with being busy and working Nadja towards a BH, I’m not in the place to be getting another pup..  will have to admire from a distance I guess


----------



## David Winners

REEHGE said:


> This made me wonder if you are still day-watching Captain and out of curiosity what you would say of an overall comparison between Valor and Captain at this point? Nerves/confidence, biddability, aloofness/sociability, prey drive, energy, and/or any personality trait whether similar or different that comes to mind.


I do not watch him daily anymore. He was getting snarky with Valor when out on adventures about the time Captain was turning 2 and Valor was 7-8 months. It is something I could fix but it isn't worth the time in my opinion, and it's not my dog. The snark always happened around toys. Captain couldn't keep up with Valor, particularly after we had been out for 30 minutes or more, which would lead to frustration. They are OK together now with only the occasional challenge between them. 

A general comparison between them. They are definitely different dogs in a lot of ways, which is interesting because I pretty much raised both of them. All the training was the same. Same daily activities.

They are both confident dogs. Definitely go everywhere, do everything and have fun doing it personalities. Valor is more socially comfortable than Captain in that he is neutral / aloof towards people and he is totally OK meeting strangers or not. Valor will lay down in a bar and let total strangers step over him. Captain is less comfortable than that around strangers, but honestly he has never been a problem. Captain is generally aloof with a little more avoidance than Valor. 

They are both environmentally stable. I do a lot of adventure training in all kinds of environments and that pays off later. Neither dog has ever shown anything other than initial avoidance to a new situation. They will both recover quickly and carry on in just about any situation.

That's where the similarities kind of end. 

Captain is not a biddable dog. He can be trained of course, but he's in it for him alone and the opportunity to get a reward. He has OK prey drive. Likes to fetch but had to have some consequences to reinforce bringing the toy back. He is a dog that responds well to management through training. If you want a particular behavior in a particular situation, just train it and ask for it and he will be fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Valor is more biddable and handler oriented. He is always trying to figure out what I want. Fetch was automatic and remains that way. Valor is more about the interaction with me and Captain is more about the reward.

Captain has plenty of prey drive, let's say 6 on a scale of 1 - Mal. He tugs well and is a bit possessive. Not great in the hunt department. He will give up fairly easily on a hard find. Valor has a bit more drive all around. Maybe a 7 on the Mal scale, and hunt is phenomenal. He has shown forward defense in "stranger danger" evaluation where Captain backed up towards me. 

Energy, stamina, strength, toughness, all those things Valor takes by a landslide. Though Valor is shorter in height and length, they are almost exactly the same weight. Valor is quicker, faster, jumps much higher, is more agile and sure footed, has far more stamina and recharges while trotting. You can literally watch his tongue retract while trotting in front of you between hard searches and uphill fetches. Captain would be frustrated and seeking shade after 20 minutes of hard play where Valor would be ready to rock and showing far less signs of fatigue. The disparity is even greater now as Valor matures. Valor is much stronger than Captain and it is obvious when they rough house and he has an explosiveness to his movements that Captain just doesn't have. 

Captain falls apart under real stress as well. He had a bad nail trim experience, so he decided at about 2 that he was going to fight whoever tried to trim his nails. 4 people (at the same time) tried to confine him and trim his nails and he fought them all off. I started taking him to the groomer at the same time as Valor for nail trims. The first time I took him, I put a muzzle on him (he was previously muzzle trained by me) and restrained him. He literally lost his mind. Expressed his glands. Whale eyes. This is the wrong place to go into all the stuff I tried before just restraining him and getting it done. He is fine with nail trims now, so no need to tell me how messed up the situation was  

Captain will not settle. Even if he is tired and satisfied, he has a hard time just chilling out. He is easy to manage as he will down stay or goto place, but his mind never really relaxes. Yes, I've done a lot of exercises with him and so has his owner. He is better behaved now, but his brain is still going. Valor will chill out. He will sleep anywhere. He is fantastic in the car. He is ready to go 100% when it's time, and he's also good at 20% when called for. He takes his cues from me about what's going on right this second and tries his best to fit in. 

I don't really like Captain enough to want to feed him. He's a nice dog. He is beautiful and rather well mannered. He's just not my kind of dog.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## tim_s_adams

Valor is like a fine wine, he just keeps getting better looking with age!


----------



## David Winners

We went out at 7am this morning. Still dark. 60 fetches down the hill, through tall grass with standing water, up the hill and back to me. All in 60 minutes. We were skirting a reservoir and covered 2 miles in the process. Lots of OB reps and impulse control stuff. Nerd had a blast. He is 9 days shy of 18 months. 

This is 30 minutes later


----------



## drparker151

Jaz loves her egg, she’ll get frustrated that she cannot grab it, then sinks her teeth into a basket ball and uses it to push the egg, then a few minutes later back to just trying to corral the egg.


----------



## David Winners

The TURD chewed the corner of my phone last night and the screen is totally out of commission. I left it on the couch in the camper so it's my fault.


----------



## Galathiel

Just when you think they're 'perfect', they remind you ... yeah I'm still a puppy too. Ooof.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> The TURD chewed the corner of my phone last night and the screen is totally out of commission. I left it on the couch in the camper so it's my fault.


Is it in a rubber case. He gets points for creativity in my book. That’s the first time I’ve heard of a cell phone being chewed.


----------



## dogma13

The phone had dad's scent on it. He nibbled it out of love  My three stooges don't chew anymore but they will lick and mouth things with my scent. What a lovely treat first thing in the morning to slip on wet cold slippers


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> The TURD chewed the corner of my phone last night and the screen is totally out of commission. I left it on the couch in the camper so it's my fault.


I'm actually relieved that he actually has some flaws (both of you)


----------



## tim_s_adams

WNGD said:


> I'm actually relieved that he actually has some flaws (both of you)


Not a flaw, a feature!


----------



## GSD07

David Winners said:


> The TURD chewed the corner of my phone last night and the screen is totally out of commission. I left it on the couch in the camper so it's my fault.


 lol Reminds me… Our dog chewed a remote. My husband bought another remote which was destroyed by pup on the very same day. So my husband got upset, went and bought the third remote AND a lockbox. So now we have a metal fire resistant locking box on our coffee table for storing the tiny remote 😆


----------



## David Winners

Hill fun this afternoon.


----------



## Sabis mom

I love watching dogs bounce through grass and stuff. So fun when all you can see is a tail or ears now and then. They always seem happy doing it, like a doggie version of hide and seek.
Can't get over how gorgeous he is! He just keeps getting better.


----------



## David Winners

Hanging out in the camper. He's getting that big boy head.


----------



## Max’s Owner

David Winners said:


> Hanging out in the camper. He's getting that big boy head.
> View attachment 579873



So fuzzy!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## David Winners

Max’s Owner said:


> So fuzzy!!!!!!!!!!


It was 28 this morning and he went for a swim


----------



## Max’s Owner

David Winners said:


> It was 28 this morning and he went for a swim


do you mean 82?Heheheh


----------



## David Winners

Max’s Owner said:


> do you mean 82?Heheheh


No, which is why we are going to Arizona directly after Christmas 😊


----------



## David Winners

We were out at a regular adventure spot today and there was a gentleman driving along the path in a truck, spreading mulch around the base of trees.

This gentleman had a funny hat with ear muffs on it, and walked with a particularly large limp. He was carrying a shovel, moving the truck every couple minutes so into the truck, start it, stop it, out of the truck, you get the picture. He's a nice, older guy that used to eat at my restaurant.

Challenge accepted. No e-collar.

I started out focused heeling, or a version of that drawn with crayons on cardboard if you are a competitive OB type, close to the truck and guy. Probably 15 feet or so. Nerd was doing well. I put him in a down and struck up a conversation. I got around to mentioning that we were training and asked if I could include the truck. He said heck yeah, so we did.

I started by having him hup into the back, which was full of mulch, and staying while I walked around the truck. Then it was on the hood (it was a beat up truck ok) and then the roof. The guy was into it.

Ended up with Valor in the passenger seat holding a down, guy driving the truck, me in the back on the mulch. He was never uncomfortable, followed every command, ignored landscaping dude completely, even when they were in the same truck together, and had fun all the while.

Everything is a training opportunity.

I love this dog.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> We were out at a regular adventure spot today and there was a gentleman driving along the path in a truck, spreading mulch around the base of trees.
> 
> This gentleman had a funny hat with ear muffs on it, and walked with a particularly large limp. He was carrying a shovel, moving the truck every couple minutes so into the truck, start it, stop it, out of the truck, you get the picture. He's a nice, older guy that used to eat at my restaurant.
> 
> Challenge accepted. No e-collar.
> 
> I started out focused heeling, or a version of that drawn with crayons on cardboard if you are a competitive OB type, close to the truck and guy. Probably 15 feet or so. Nerd was doing well. I put him in a down and struck up a conversation. I got around to mentioning that we were training and asked if I could include the truck. He said heck yeah, so we did.
> 
> I started by having him hup into the back, which was full of mulch, and staying while I walked around the truck. Then it was on the hood (it was a beat up truck ok) and then the roof. The guy was into it.
> 
> Ended up with Valor in the passenger seat holding a down, guy driving the truck, me in the back on the mulch. He was never uncomfortable, followed every command, ignored landscaping dude completely, even when they were in the same truck together, and had fun all the while.
> 
> Everything is a training opportunity.
> 
> I love this dog.


Sounds like such an awesome session. Really flying on trust with no tools.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Sounds like such an awesome session. Really flying on trust with no tools.


I wasn't worried about a bite or recall situation, so no real risk. Valor is pretty neutral. Had the guy been shady at all, I wouldn't have gone there.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I wasn't worried about a bite or recall situation, so no real risk. Valor is pretty neutral. Had the guy been shady at all, I wouldn't have gone there.


I think I had begun to take having a dog that isn’t a flight risk for granted. Then I ended my mom’s dog decided he wanted to tour the neighborhood. For him to comfortably work away from you around all those strange goings on and a variety of surfaces shows a good combination of genetics and training.


----------



## REEHGE

Nice, did you instruct the Gentleman to remain neutral to Valor or did they interact at all?


----------



## David Winners

REEHGE said:


> Nice, did you instruct the Gentleman to remain neutral to Valor or did they interact at all?


The gentleman tried to get Valor to interact but he wasn't interested. I didn't instruct anything. I wanted to see what happened. Again, I wasn't worried about a bite or flight so no real down side.


----------



## REEHGE

David Winners said:


> The gentleman tried to get Valor to interact but he wasn't interested.


This might be one on my favorite features of German Shepherds. I regularly visit various peoples houses to purchase salvage vehicles and if I approve of the surrounding situation I will let the dog out as long as the land owner gives the ok. I always giggle l little inside when they try to coax him for a pet and he basically blows them off as is they don't exist


----------



## Sunflowers

Dad says hi, from snowy Canada. 🥶🥶🥶


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Dad says hi, from snowy Canada. 🥶🥶🥶
> View attachment 580570


Can't say that I'm jealous of the weather lol. It's been cold here but no substantial snowfall.

Valor has that full winter coat going as well. He's also eating like a horse.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Can't say that I'm jealous of the weather lol. It's been cold here but no substantial snowfall.
> 
> Valor has that full winter coat going as well. He's also eating like a horse.


It's raining here. Want to come visit?


----------



## David Winners




----------



## WNGD

No snow here in Southern ON Canada. Still have leaves to rake


----------



## crowconor

David Winners said:


> View attachment 580573


He is a very handsome dog. He looks pretty big, how does he weigh? Love his block head.


----------



## Sunflowers

Incredible, that it’s the same dog!


----------



## David Winners

crowconor said:


> He is a very handsome dog. He looks pretty big, how does he weigh? Love his block head.


He's right at 80 pounds. Eating like a horse and a bit lean right now.


----------



## SuperAndre

Sunflowers said:


> Dad says hi, from snowy Canada. 🥶🥶🥶
> View attachment 580570


Did you guys get snow already!?!?!


----------



## Sunflowers

SuperAndre said:


> Did you guys get snow already!?!?!


As you can see. Gus did.


----------



## David Winners

We went to my BILs house for Thanksgiving dinner today. They have a cranky American bulldog named Tubby. We took the dogs, of course.

Hank, our CC, just ignored tubby and stuck by his momma. That's what he does. Valor tried like crazy to make friends. Tubby would be growling, but not tense so no worry about an actual attack, and Valor would go in easy, head low, licking his flews. He wasn't bothered by the growling at all. Really calm. It took about 5 attempts before Tubby gave in and played with him. They ended up racing around the back yard like idiots, Tubby trying valiantly to keep up and Valor letting himself be caught.

I put Valor in a down stay next to me during dinner. He stayed there while Tubby was being fed entirely too many table scraps from everyone around the table. The matriarch of the family was begging me to let Valor have some turkey, so I took him into the adjacent living room, where everyone could see, and had him do the dancing pony show routine for turkey scraps. The grand finale was sitting pretty on a rocking chair that was rocking. They all want me to train their dogs lol.

They also made me a pumpkin cheesecake with salted bourbon caramel on top for my birthday.

Fantastic day! Good food, good friends and good dogs.

PS: Sorry no video. I left my phone in the car, on purpose.


----------



## WNGD

Hey, Happy Birthday David!
But what the heck is a dog fluke, Google says go to the vet lol?


----------



## Sunflowers

I think he meant flews. Darned autocorrect...

Happy Birthday, David...from all the German Shepherds on this board.


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Hey, Happy Birthday David!
> But what the heck is a dog fluke, Google says go to the vet lol?


Thanks!

Flews... My phone didn't like it


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I think he meant flews. Darned autocorrect...
> 
> Happy Birthday, David...from all the German Shepherds on this board.


Thank you!


----------



## Sabis mom

Happy birthday! Glad you had a good dinner.


----------



## Bearshandler

Happy birthday. Sounds like you had a great time. I bet that cake was amazing.


----------



## NadDog24

Happy birthday! Sounds like a fun day


----------



## jarn

Happy Birthday David! Your dogs are great!

(I laughed at a dog named Tubby getting table scraps)


----------



## David Winners

Blind search this morning. It's an area where we often walk the trail so I have to remind him to search a couple times when he came back to our normal walking path.

The area is pretty huge. It's 125 yards by half a mile. He found the hide after searching about a third of the area. We made a pass down the downwind flank and just started our return pass when he hit odor. It was a nice find from about 30 yards uphill from source. He was ranging out nicely. He has been crittering more lately, sniffing pee and getting distracted on a search. This is normal and will go away. I corrected him twice for it and put him back to work.

Questions and comments always welcome.


----------



## wolfy dog

My Malinois would swim through a thin layer of ice. Don't know how she could stand that.


----------



## Orphan Heidi

Thanks David. Valor has really matured since I've seen his videos. Quite a handsome lad.

What is the cue for him to go search? The name of the toy?
What are you saying/signaling to send him out to search?


----------



## Heartandsoul

David, that was a lot of fun to watch. I was wondering if he was searching for an item or a scent tin. I don’t think I will say right now exactly when and where he caught the scent (don’t want to ruin the fun for others), but interestingly enough, I saw two major change of directions. There definitely was a scent cone involved. 

This sure brought back some fond search memories. And Valor is impressive. Also, when he caught the scent, there was just a really nice change in his overall demeanor. more serious or urgency to get the job done is the best I can describe it. Edit: Had to come back to explain. Your first 2 “co su” search commands, he was searching, but he was searching an empty area and he knew it. It was like when my boy (rip) was searching an empty room. Knew it was empty before entering, just obeying the command.

really thanks for posting 🙂


----------



## David Winners

Orphan Heidi said:


> Thanks David. Valor has really matured since I've seen his videos. Quite a handsome lad.
> 
> What is the cue for him to go search? The name of the toy?
> What are you saying/signaling to send him out to search?


Go, means forward, and suk, Dutch for search

So go suk


----------



## WNGD

How about "you suk"? 
A distracted Valor is more on point than 95% of the dogs out there.


----------



## Sabis mom

He is looking good! I have to wonder though, why does he not live with me?


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> He is looking good! I have to wonder though, why does he not live with me?


He's got a thing for Jinjers that stopped maturing at about 14.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Blind search this morning. It's an area where we often walk the trail so I have to remind him to search a couple times when he came back to our normal walking path.
> 
> The area is pretty huge. It's 125 yards by half a mile. He found the hide after searching about a third of the area. We made a pass down the downwind flank and just started our return pass when he hit odor. It was a nice find from about 30 yards uphill from source. He was ranging out nicely. He has been crittering more lately, sniffing pee and getting distracted on a search. This is normal and will go away. I corrected him twice for it and put him back to work.
> 
> Questions and comments always welcome.


That’s some good work. The strong foundation makes it easier to correct the minor issues on the fly. How often do you get him out on searches right now?


----------



## tim_s_adams

David, set the scene for us, blind search, meaning someone other than you placed it previously?

No trail in or out?

Either way, impressive hunt drive by Valor. Just curious about the details.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> That’s some good work. The strong foundation makes it easier to correct the minor issues on the fly. How often do you get him out on searches right now?


Yes, I'm not worried about a little correction bringing him out of drive or anything. He wants the search. He was just a little confused because we regularly hike there while doing some OB and he's always checking in for the opportunity to get a command and reward. A little nudge to search got him back on task. 

I can only do blind searches twice a week as I don't have another person to place hides besides the handler I work with. We place hides for each other. This is part of the reason I haven't trained a TFR yet. I need to have the person who placed the hide along so they can confirm a find before I reward. 

I much prefer blind searches as it removes the chance that I will cue him when he gets close or subconsciously direct him towards the hide. We have to work together, me giving general direction and keeping track of what has been searched and him taking general direction and doing his thing.


----------



## David Winners

tim_s_adams said:


> David, set the scene for us, blind search, meaning someone other than you placed it previously?
> 
> No trail in or out?
> 
> Either way, impressive hunt drive by Valor. Just curious about the details.


Blind to me and the dog. I have a police handler that I work with. The only information we give each other is search area parameters. We place blind hides for each other. I search with Valor, put him up and then meet up with the handler and follow them on their search. He was having trouble with false alerts and I offered to trade training for him placing hides for us. It works out.


----------



## REEHGE

David Winners said:


> Blind to me and the dog. I have a police handler that I work with. The only information we give each other is search area parameters. We place blind hides for each other. I search with Valor, put him up and then meet up with the handler and follow them on their search. He was having trouble with false alerts and I offered to trade training for him placing hides for us. It works out.


Is there any specifics on the items used to hide besides human related odor, does your helper place other things you guys could find? How long do you want it or can it be placed out there before you search for it? Any worry of the person hiding it leaving scent trail to it?


----------



## David Winners

REEHGE said:


> Is there any specifics on the items used to hide besides human related odor, does your helper place other things you guys could find? How long do you want it or can it be placed out there before you search for it? Any worry of the person hiding it leaving scent trail to it?


The items are always a bumper scented with one or more of the Nosework odors. We are not training SAR, so human scent is discriminated against.

There is no human scent trail to the hide as it is thrown quite a distance from where the person placing the hide is last located. Also, the person placing the hide takes wind, terrain and the trail they are leaving into consideration when placing the hide. Some are easy. Some are harder. Some are deep in the search area or right on the downwind flank, some are right at the beginning on the upwind flank.

As Valor gets better, the search areas get larger and the hides can be more challenging to him and me. It's very beneficial to have an experienced handler place hides as they understand all these factors and can take them into consideration when setting up a training problem.


----------



## Heartandsoul

This is what I think was going on: He caught odor about 6min and 30 sec in when you called the search command. He passes you (that’s when I felt he caught the odor) and continues until 6:37 where he does an about face and races back to and ahead of you. That’s where I thought he was in a scent cone and at 6:47 maybe because the scent is too weak and does a 180 back to and past you again and seems back on track. The really nice change of direction comes soon after he had skirted some of the inside of the large incline, comes down and basically tracks in a straight line and then abruptly makes a right angle turn and probably a head snap as he does it. That part was cool. Straight ahead and bingo.

How old was that hide? I’m wondering if the scent had been skirting and up and over the small incline and stayed within (didn’t rise over the higher incline).

Also going to retract my statement about how he was working prior to catching the scent. He absolutely was enthusiastic through out. But there was something extra after the 6:30 mark.

just my novice observations.


----------



## David Winners

The hide was about an hour old. It hasn't had any scent added to it in over a month.

I don't believe he was in odor until right around 7:24 or so when he heads back towards me, brackets back away and then hits good odor at 7:27.

If he was in odor before we turned left and came down the hill, he wouldn't have stopped and checked in.

The difference you see in behavior is getting off the normal hiking path and his typical behavior there.

I will record our next search which is at a location where we haven't been in months with no typical routines.


----------



## REEHGE

Heartandsoul said:


> This is what I think was going on: He caught odor about 6min and 30 sec in when you called the search command. He passes you (that’s when I felt he caught the odor) and continues until 6:37 where he does an about face and races back to and ahead of you. That’s where I thought he was in a scent cone and at 6:47 maybe because the scent is too weak and does a 180 back to and past you again and seems back on track. The really nice change of direction comes soon after he had skirted some of the inside of the large incline, comes down and basically tracks in a straight line and then abruptly makes a right angle turn and probably a head snap as he does it. That part was cool. Straight ahead and bingo.
> 
> How old was that hide? I’m wondering if the scent had been skirting and up and over the small incline and stayed within (didn’t rise over the higher incline).
> 
> Also going to retract my statement about how he was working prior to catching the scent. He absolutely was enthusiastic through out. But there was something extra after the 6:30 mark.
> 
> just my novice observations.


I had initially thought it was about 6:58 he got first whiff of the scent...🙈


----------



## David Winners

He throws really hard changes and doesn't ease up, so if he hits fringe odor, his tail curls up and gets going and it's fairly obvious. He would be an easy dog for a new handler.

That pause at 7:01 is a dead giveaway that he's not on odor.

Most people have to look for subtle changes. It's a matter of experience with the dog.


----------



## Heartandsoul

Thanks for the explanation. I went back and watched to see what you were saying. Valor is what I call a licketty splitter, Covers more ground in less time. My guy was the epitome of sloooow and steady. Two very different styles. My new guy is a licketty splitter also.



REEHGE said:


> I had initially thought it was about 6:58 he got first whiff of the scent...🙈


At least you didn’t take 500 words to explain what you saw. 🤣


----------



## David Winners

Heartandsoul said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I went back and watched to see what you were saying. Valor is what I call a licketty splitter, Covers more ground in less time. My guy was the epitome of sloooow and steady. Two very different styles. My new guy is a licketty splitter also.
> 
> 
> 
> At least you didn’t take 500 words to explain what you saw. 🤣


Yes! He also drives to odor with a purpose. There is no thinking about it. He will blow out of a scent cone and it's obvious how he spins around that it effects him lol. He has learned to slow down close to source instead of blowing by it 47 times.


----------



## REEHGE

David Winners said:


> He throws really hard changes and doesn't ease up, so if he hits fringe odor, his tail curls up and gets going and it's fairly obvious. He would be an easy dog for a new handler.
> 
> That pause at 7:01 is a dead giveaway that he's not on odor.
> 
> Most people have to look for subtle changes. It's a matter of experience with the dog.


x2 on Thanks for the explanations!We'll see if we can nail it on the next video....


----------



## Heartandsoul

David Winners said:


> Yes! He also drives to odor with a purpose. There is no thinking about it. He will blow out of a scent cone and it's obvious how he spins around that it effects him lol. He has learned to slow down close to source instead of blowing by it 47 times.


 that was obvious when he bee lined it straight to it. It’s a lot of fun to watch.

Lol the “47 times” we did a lot of threshhold hide Practices. Settling at the threshhold for a couple seconds before the command so the hide wouldn’t be missed.


----------



## Saphire

Sabis mom said:


> He is looking good! I have to wonder though, why does he not live with me?


ummmmm I get first dibs on this amazing dog 😝


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> ummmmm I get first dibs on this amazing dog 😝


Uh huh.
Perfectly trained Valor...


----------



## David Winners

I think you all would have to fight my wife for him. Contrary to her initial belief, she is quite taken with the nerd.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I think you all would have to fight my wife for him. Contrary to her initial belief, she is quite taken with the nerd.


At least you know he’ll always have a home.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> At least you know he’ll always have a home.


I have always known that Saphire would take him. I also have a standing deal with my fellow VLK trainer that in case something happens you one of us, the other will take their dogs. He's got a handful of a Dutchie that would otherwise be euthanized.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I have always known that Saphire would take him. I also have a standing deal with my fellow VLK trainer that in case something happens you one of us, the other will take their dogs. He's got a handful of a Dutchie that would otherwise be euthanized.


🤣🤣🤣Sounds terrible. How do you sign up?


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣🤣Sounds terrible. How do you sign up?


I've worked Falco, and been around him a lot. He got retired when Gary recalled him out of a house in Iraq. Little did he know that Falco had found his way to the roof. He jumped off and broke both front legs.

He's also possessive. Gary's son in law thought it would be funny to throw a bowling ball in the back yard. Gary ended up in a bite suit trying to get it away from Falco.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I've worked Falco, and been around him a lot. He got retired when Gary recalled him out of a house in Iraq. Little did he know that Falco had found his way to the roof. He jumped off and broke both front legs.
> 
> He's also possessive. Gary's son in law thought it would be funny to throw a bowling ball in the back yard. Gary ended up in a bite suit trying to get it away from Falco.


That’s a strong dog. Definitely had a purpose in life. It’s good there is someone like you there for him if he needs it.


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> Uh huh.
> Perfectly trained Valor...


Yes indeed!


----------



## David Winners

Small dog encounter.

We had an interesting encounter at one of our normal stomping grounds. I pulled up and parked in the parking lot and there were 2 cars parked. One I recognized as a normal hiker that we encounter often as we hike at similar times. He's a nice old army vet and we always talk crap about navy guys 

The other car was strange to me. Nothing to worry about. I get out of the car to release the Kraken and this little terrier comes walking along. I decided to wait until the owner was around. I waited... And waited... And waited.

Finally I put a leash on the nerd and got him out. Training opportunity, so we were heeling and downing and stuff. LT keeps working closer with still no sign of an owner. I'm thinking loose dog. I let Valor off leash and they greeted each other and started playing gently for probably 5 minutes.

A lady gets out of the strange car, running towards us. She was exasperated. "I'm so sorry. He doesn't usually approach big dogs. Is he ok?"

So, you came, parked your car, let your dog out and got on your phone.

People are stupid.

Nice little dog.


----------



## Sabis mom

Good boy Valor! People are stupid.


----------



## WNGD

I have seen people go to the dog park, let their dogs in the gates and go back to sit in the car, no kidding. 
Only one step worse than those that stare at their phones the whole time or stand around talking and drinking coffee while their dog is 10o yards away in the opposite corner.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> He's a nice old army vet and we always talk crap about navy guys


🤣🤣🤣almost got me. This is a pg site though and I have practice dealing with normal people.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> 🤣🤣🤣almost got me. This is a pg site though and I have practice dealing with normal people.


I wondered if you would catch that


----------



## Jenny720

Valor is doing great. It’s nice to know how our dogs work. Blind searches are the best practice most certainly. As is the wind and watching them figure that out. My daughter went on a fox hunt they used artificial fake scent that is dragged the night before the hounds track down its all about the dogs. They were out for hours. It has to be interesting how they are trained but much the same. That has it all right there horses and scent work.lol.
I’m not very consistent but we always seem to pick up where we left off.During the summer I could not resist the set up had no balls or treats though so I am sure he felt jipped at the end with just praise. I had those geeky keychain nose work canisters with me with a dried up old qtip in that had to be over two years old. It makes it easy to drop and keep going. If long enough time passes i sometimes can forget where it is anyway lol. This is the First time I buried the qtip the dirt and he found it at the end as he was digging on top of the hill. I find it very hard to video but it’s the best way to see their body reactions I like to do that in slow motion to. The second video I cut the end off but he is alerting at the qtip snd got a snap shot. He seemed to start off close
to the qtip do a check went back to the source. I enjoyed that detailing of the truck lol. Turn the volume off to the songs lol. It’s nice to see all the time put into this animal and it all paid off. He loves this.




__





- YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




youtube.com


----------



## David Winners

Camping full time now, which means every day is different. Our first stop on the way from Ohio to Arizona was a brewery. There happened to be a corn hole tournament going on. He's just a go everywhere dog. We were playing off leash and chilling. A bunch of dudes wanted to say hello. Bags of corn flying around. He ate dinner while I drank beers. 

I love this dog.


----------



## WNGD

Sweet to have a dog balanced enough to go anywhere. Good stuff.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> View attachment 581605


He is just stunning!


----------



## Apex1

Does Valor wear an ecollar when off leash? I love this thread.


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> He is just stunning!


Zero bias there. 😁


----------



## David Winners

Apex1 said:


> Does Valor wear an ecollar when off leash? I love this thread.


Most of the time. I just had a long line on him in this shot. We were just taking a break after setting up at the current location.


----------



## NadDog24

Good golly! He’s so handsome!


----------



## Bearshandler

I certainly enjoy reading about your semi retirement. It’s like some of the time Valor is a hardcore working, searching acres for birch and Anise. Other times he’s just a dog out wrestling with a boy. Other times he’s just a pet watching a game of corn hole. Occasionally he’s a personal protection dog when old friend decide to test him out. It’s an amazing range.


----------



## Sunflowers

Valor should be featured in a GSD calendar.
I’ll bet sales would be good.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> I certainly enjoy reading about your semi retirement. It’s like some of the time Valor is a hardcore working, searching acres for birch and Anise. Other times he’s just a dog out wrestling with a boy. Other times he’s just a pet watching a game of corn hole. Occasionally he’s a personal protection dog when old friend decide to test him out. It’s an amazing range.


Yeah, that about sums it up


----------



## David Winners

We're at a winery in Texas for the night. It's on 260 acres down a dirt road. When we pulled up by the house, there were 12 dogs outside ranging from a Teacup Poodle to a Great Pyrenees. 2 GSDs.

We stopped while a young lady came out, told us where to park and got our order for fresh baked bread.

The winery was down a path next to the vineyard, around the corner. Probably 250 meters from the house. We drove down, parked the camper and got set up. It's just a huge farm so we let the dogs run free. It was a 10 hour travel day so they were amped up to be out of the truck. 

Valor barked one bark and ran around the camper. I walked around and the Pyr has made her way down to visit. Everything was fine with Valor and Hank. Butts were sniffed and then everyone moved on. (Later in the afternoon, Hank and Blizzard were laying outside together  ).

When the owner came up to greet us and sell us wine, a couple corgi showed up as well. Really nice dogs. Valor played some chase games with them. The 2 oldest boys delivered our bread and had training questions about the one GSD. I talked with them a bit and suggested they join the forum.

It's my favorite stop so far. Fresh baked bread and fantastic wine for dinner. Really nice people and dogs. No leashes and no boundaries. We played Nosework games in the tall grass and walked a lap around the vineyard. 

I kind of want a couple hundred acres in west Texas. It's beautiful here.

Nerd was great. Hank was great.


----------



## drparker151

We've had some great stays at Harvest Hosts.


----------



## Sunflowers

You’re making me want to get an RV and hit the road.


----------



## David Winners

drparker151 said:


> We've had some great stays at Harvest Hosts.


Oswald Vineyard if you get out this way. $15 for 50a hookup as well. Good T-Mobile and Verizon service. They have 5 or 6 spots. John, the owner, is a really interesting guy. He was a chemist with a cushy job in Alabama. They ended up out this way because their kids went to a bluegrass camp here. They made friends with a couple with a winery and stayed out here for a bit when their kids married each other. He worked on the vineyard and loved it. They sold everything, bought this land, built a house and vineyard such is entirely family owned and operated.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> You’re making me want to get an RV and hit the road.


It's fun!


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> It's fun!


Do you ever get tired, as people do when they travel, and just want to go home?
What happens when you just want to stay put?


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Do you ever get tired, as people do when they travel, and just want to go home?
> What happens when you just want to stay put?


You figure out how you like to travel. Some people stay a week or two at every stop. Some travel long days, sleep and repeat until they get where they are going. We limit actual drive time to about 6 hours a day. We alternate between 1 and 2 night stays until we get where we are going. We will be at 3 locations in Arizona for a total of a month. Then meandering for another month back towards Ohio.

When I get tired, I take a nap


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> Zero bias there. 😁


He’s a GUS CLONE lol of course he’s stunning!!!!


----------



## Sabis mom

Bearshandler said:


> I certainly enjoy reading about your semi retirement. It’s like some of the time Valor is a hardcore working, searching acres for birch and Anise. Other times he’s just a dog out wrestling with a boy. Other times he’s just a pet watching a game of corn hole. Occasionally he’s a personal protection dog when old friend decide to test him out. It’s an amazing range.


Exactly what I want in a dog! 
He really is just getting better and better David. I sometimes go back and start this thread from the beginning. I so enjoy watching him grow up.


----------



## David Winners

5am - he just poked me with his nose to wake me up. When I got up, he took a couple steps towards the door/water bowl. I went over and filled their bowl and opened the door. Nothing. I turned around to see where he was and he stole my bed, snuggled down on my pillow.


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> 5am - he just poked me with his nose to wake me up. When I got up, he took a couple steps towards the door/water bowl. I went over and filled their bowl and opened the door. Nothing. I turned around to see where he was and he stole my bed, snuggled down on my pillow.


This is the type of thing that earned Hans the nickname Turdhead. 😁


----------



## WNGD

David Winners said:


> Oswald Vineyard if you get out this way. $15 for 50a hookup as well. Good T-Mobile and Verizon service. They have 5 or 6 spots. John, the owner, is a really interesting guy. He was a chemist with a cushy job in Alabama. They ended up out this way because their kids went to a bluegrass camp here. They made friends with a couple with a winery and stayed out here for a bit when *their kids married each other*. He worked on the vineyard and loved it. They sold everything, bought this land, built a house and vineyard such is entirely family owned and operated.


Did a double take reading this. I thought it only happened in Mississippi?
There are a lot of wineries half an hour west of here, tons of fruit orchards too. Beautiful in all seasons and a nice lifestyle but don't kid yourself, those people work HARD.


----------



## drparker151

If I ignore the muzzle nudge to the neck, I'll get a tongue in my ear.


----------



## WNGD

No better way to wake up than a cold nose coming under the sheets to encourage you that it's time to get up .....


----------



## WNGD

drparker151 said:


> If I ignore the muzzle nudge to the neck, I'll get a tongue in my ear.


Sexy talk not allowed on this site ....


----------



## brittanyS

WNGD said:


> Did a double take reading this. I thought it only happened in Mississippi?


For Pete’s sake, even the Canadians make fun of Mississippi? (Proud Mississippian here)


----------



## David Winners

To be clear, the son of the owner of the vineyard met a girl at bluegrass camp and they hit it off and later decided to marry. The vineyard owner traveled to Texas for the wedding and they stayed with her parents who own and operate a vineyard.


----------



## Sunflowers

New pic of Valor, please.


----------



## WNGD

brittanyS said:


> For Pete’s sake, even the Canadians make fun of Mississippi? (Proud Mississippian here)


My parents-in-law bought a place on the beach in Gulfport years ago and it was totally wiped out by Katrina. They never rebuilt but that was one of the nicest beach strops I ever saw. Casinos ruined the area.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> New pic of Valor, please.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## David Winners

Tired nerd


----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> Tired nerd
> View attachment 581873


He looks SOOOOOOOO uncomfortable sheesh


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> He looks SOOOOOOOO uncomfortable sheesh


He was spooning me. I got up to take the picture


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> He was spooning me. I got up to take the picture


What a horrible life that poor dog has 😂


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> What a horrible life that poor dog has 😂


I know right! The poor baby. No schedule. No routine. A different environment daily. Such a terrible life


----------



## David Winners

Sunrise with my sunshine.

20 months


----------



## Sunflowers

I will never forget the first time I saw Valor, on a Zoom call.
The puppies had never been out in the big yard before, and they were brought out one by one.
Valor came out as if he owned the entire property, then proceeded to put his nose to the ground and sniff everything❤
We thought he would make a fantastic detection dog.
He was small, but sturdy, confident and, my goodness, so very cute.

Happy 20 months, Sniffy.
Love you from a distance.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I will never forget the first time I saw Valor, on a Zoom call.
> The puppies had never been out in the big yard before, and they were brought out one by one.
> Valor came out as if he owned the entire property, then proceeded to put his nose to the ground and sniff everything❤
> We thought he would make a fantastic detection dog.
> He was small, but sturdy, confident and, my goodness, so very cute.
> 
> Happy 20 months, Sniffy.
> Love you from a distance.


Not much has changed 

He's 80 pounds, very powerful, nose to the ground and very confident in any situation.


----------



## Saphire

I’m still in awe, it’s like looking at a young Gus ❤❤❤
I can’t wait to get pictures of the 2 of them together


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> I’m still in awe, it’s like looking at a young Gus ❤❤❤
> I can’t wait to get pictures of the 2 of them together


You were wondering if, in this litter, there will be pups that look and behave like Gus.
This, in the looks department, is as close as it gets. But Ellie Mae brought some welcomed softness. He has the same thousand-mile stare (and those humanoid eyebrows!) but sweetened just a touch.

Someday, I will pet that dog, and he will tolerate it, LOL.
Just like his dad.


----------



## David Winners




----------



## tim_s_adams

David Winners said:


> View attachment 582114


David, stop it already with the incredibly gorgeous pictures of you dog (kidding of course!). He is a handsome devil, but still..LOL!.


----------



## Sabis mom

You know I adore Valor! He is so stunning and such a good boy. But I thought there were 5 in his litter? Did we ever figure that out?


----------



## David Winners

Valor, Reya, Max and Sophie are all I know of.

I have kept up with Max, who is doing amazing.


----------



## David Winners

We visited Tombstone Arizona today. There were lots of people, horses, dogs, gunfights and unique sights and sounds.

He was a bit of an excited knucklehead, but my standards are high. Valor was a confident dog and he was never a problem. He got a few corrections for blowing me off, but he was generally a good boy.

At 20 months, it's a bit of a balancing act. Exposure vs obedience. I'm impressed with his temperament and his will. He's a super fun dog that is never boring.

He met 3 puppies today in a very gentle way. Sniffed noses with a huge horse and rode in a carriage. 

Love this dog


----------



## David Winners

We went to the Quartzite RV show and took the dogs. The big tent, which is literally the biggest tent I have ever seen, was packed full of people and there were a ton of dogs. It was awesome to see so many well behaved dogs! Hank and Valor were great, and so were all the other dogs. It was a cramped madhouse and it was challenging for me to stay calm when getting jostled around. It was such a great experience. I hardly paid any attention to the vendors. I was checking out all the dogs lol.


----------



## drparker151

That event is on our to do list. Are you boondocking in the desert or at a traditional RV park?


----------



## Nigel

David Winners said:


> We visited Tombstone Arizona today. There were lots of people, horses, dogs, gunfights and unique sights and sounds.
> 
> He was a bit of an excited knucklehead, but my standards are high. Valor was a confident dog and he was never a problem. He got a few corrections for blowing me off, but he was generally a good boy.
> 
> At 20 months, it's a bit of a balancing act. Exposure vs obedience. I'm impressed with his temperament and his will. He's a super fun dog that is never boring.
> 
> He met 3 puppies today in a very gentle way. Sniffed noses with a huge horse and rode in a carriage.
> 
> Love this dog


My day was similar to this, Mako met lots of people at a “football” party, some sober, some not, he did great with the resident dogs too. Later when we stopped by a friends house a white car passed by as we exited my pickup and fired 5 rounds at a house further down the block, neither the shots fired or police sirens soon after fazed him. Wrapping up the day with a short hike we encountered two guys on horses…..that part didn’t go so well so we’ll keep working on that.

I enjoy reading others adventures, progress and working with their dogs. I’ve picked of bits of information and new things to try from yours, bears handler, and others as well. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## David Winners

drparker151 said:


> That event is on our to do list. Are you boondocking in the desert or at a traditional RV park?


We were at Alamo Lake state park. If we come back to Arizona, we will just boondock. No point in paying for a site when there is so much BLM land. We have boondocked for months before.


----------



## David Winners

Sunrise pic


----------



## David Winners

Picnic table spins


----------



## Hopps

David Winners said:


> Picnic table spins


The little blep at the end is adorable!


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Picnic table spins


He’s a cheater.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> He’s a cheater.


I made a mistake rewarding partial downs even he was on top of odd objects. Now, he will down properly on flat ground but he tends to leave his butt up when he is up on things.

At least that's what I think to which you are referring


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I made a mistake rewarding partial downs even he was on top of odd objects. Now, he will down properly on flat ground but he tends to leave his butt up when he is up on things.
> 
> At least that's what I think to which you are referring


I assumed he was anticipating the reward. Makes more sense to that it’s your mistake and not his. He did test if it was the right answer though. It looks like it’s going away on its own. One of those moments you can see the dog thinking.


----------



## David Winners

We made it back home after 9000 miles of adventure over the past few months. The Nerd was a great traveling, hiking and camping companion. 

He's always used his nose like crazy. Today, we picked up the grandkids from the bus stop and brought them up to the campground for a visit. We were in separate vehicles. The wife got home before me and brought me lunch. After I got home with the nerd, the kids and DW went over to the playground while I scarfed a sandwich.

I wasn't sure which playground, as there are several. I put Valor in harness and hooked up his long line. As soon as we excited the camper, he was tracking them so I just followed. He went right up to a playground, but they weren't there. He picked up the trail and headed over towards the beach area, tracking them across the bridge and then around a corner to where we could see them.

I never taught him any of this. He just does it 

I need to start trailing with him.


----------



## Carter Smith

Sabis mom said:


> Be interesting as well to see what Ellie Mae produces with Nog.
> This could be a fascinating study in genetics!


I was reading over this forum and saw this comment, and currently an Ellie Mae and Nog pup, is laying down beside me while a plumber is using a huge loud auger to unclog a drain.. (very loud and causing vibrations) perfectly calm, collected after investigating the situation


----------



## Countrygal

Carter Smith said:


> I was reading over this forum and saw this comment, and currently an Ellie Mae and Nog pup, is laying down beside me while a plumber is using a huge loud auger to unclog a drain.. (very loud and causing vibrations) perfectly calm, collected after investigating the situation


Congratulations! Would love to see a photo!


----------



## Carter Smith

Countrygal said:


> Congratulations! Would love to see a photo!


Here’s our Ellie, named after her mom. She is just shy of 4 months. Hope you don’t mind sharing your thread David and Valor.


----------



## Countrygal

Thank you! She's beautiful and reminds me so much of Sophie at that age! Her body type is similar and I love the penciling on her paws! Love the name, also! 😍


----------



## Carter Smith

Thank you! Looks like we both took a bit of there moms name. I really like the pencilling as well. We are really happy, she’s come just as advertised and more. So glad we found this forum and chose Fraserglen


----------



## David Winners

2 years old today!

Happy Birthday Nerd


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> 2 years old today!
> 
> Happy Birthday Nerd
> 
> View attachment 586659


It seems like yesterday he was fresh off the truck. In my head it’s David’s pup Valor. I guess it’s officially David’s dog now😂😂


----------



## NadDog24

Happy birthday Valor! He just keeps getting more and more handsome


----------



## David Winners

I suppose I should give an update. 

He's just a great dog for me. He's maturing slowly. Reactivity is going down. Confidence is going up. We currently are at a camp site that is literally part of the playground at this park. He handles it very well. Easy going with kids and adults. Super handler oriented and obedient. He's very physical when we play and crazy agile for his size. He was 82 pounds a couple weeks ago but he's all ribby now and I think he's going to add some bulk. 

The biggest component about Valor is that he's a huge part of the family. He's great with the wife and grandkids. I sometimes work long days and they take him out without problems. He loves hide and seek with the kids and will track them across a state park. 

He's just a rock. Really solid temperament. A real physical dog. Calm when it's time. Crazy when it's time. He has pushed me at times but falls in line happily. 

Love this nerd.


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> It seems like yesterday he was fresh off the truck. In my head it’s David’s pup Valor. I guess it’s officially David’s dog now😂😂


He's still a goofy pup 

Once in a while he will man up, but he's generally a goofy nerd that just wants to play. I'm looking forward to seeing the dog he becomes when he grows up


----------



## Hopps

David Winners said:


> I suppose I should give an update.
> 
> He's just a great dog for me. He's maturing slowly. Reactivity is going down. Confidence is going up. We currently are at a camp site that is literally part of the playground at this park. He handles it very well. Easy going with kids and adults. Super handler oriented and obedient. He's very physical when we play and crazy agile for his size. He was 82 pounds a couple weeks ago but he's all ribby now and I think he's going to add some bulk.
> 
> The biggest component about Valor is that he's a huge part of the family. He's great with the wife and grandkids. I sometimes work long days and they take him out without problems. He loves hide and seek with the kids and will track them across a state park.
> 
> He's just a rock. Really solid temperament. A real physical dog. Calm when it's time. Crazy when it's time. He has pushed me at times but falls in line happily.
> 
> Love this nerd.


What kind of reactivity is it? Is it normal for most GSDs to go through a reactivity "stage" regardless of training? Or is it more about the dog developing its own "rules" as it grows up (part of maturation)?


----------



## Apex1

Happy Birthday Valor


----------



## David Winners

Hopps said:


> What kind of reactivity is it? Is it normal for most GSDs to go through a reactivity "stage" regardless of training? Or is it more about the dog developing its own "rules" as it grows up (part of maturation)?


Dogs with drive react to stuff. It's not over the top. Basically excitement, and its normal for young dogs. 

Just work towards being a good dog in a consistent manner. Pups all go through stages and handling those stages with confidence and consistency is the key to building good dogs. 

It's easier, for me anyways, to have a dog that is forward and pushy that can take a correction in stride. So I don't really find it difficult to fix the problem unless the dog is soft or nervy and a correction makes things worse. Then you have to go the whole LAT, desensitization route and I don't care for that.

Rarely do you find a confident, forward pup that doesn't react to people and dogs once in a while. I want a pup that is full of himself. I may have to squish some of that once in a while but that is preferable to me than trying to build confidence in a pup. 

Valor isn't a pup a for everyone. I'd recommend most novice owners start with an easier dog. He moves and thinks fast, and a few successful reps creates a behavior. If that's a less than desirable behavior, you have to figure out how to extinguish it.

I'm ok with a pup being a teenager and screwing up. I keep them in line and work towards being a great adult.


----------



## Sabis mom

Happy Birthday Valor! 

He is maturing nicely, such a handsome boy. He sounds like a great dog, little of this and little of that. Love it when they just fit.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Happy Birthday Valor!
> 
> He is maturing nicely, such a handsome boy. He sounds like a great dog, little of this and little of that. Love it when they just fit.


Yeah, I think you would love him. He's got a lot of personality but he has a great desire to go with the flow. He's got a fantastic nose and hunt drive, which is fun for me.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> Yeah, I think you would love him. He's got a lot of personality but he has a great desire to go with the flow. He's got a fantastic nose and hunt drive, which is fun for me.


Still hoping one day I will get to meet him. He just sounds so much like what I want. I'm not bothered by things that drive most people nuts, and a dog that is a bit pushy is fine with me. 
I'm all about that nose stuff, I think it's why I keep leaning back toward the DDR lines. Love the hunt drive, it makes so many things so much easier. Shadow takes it to an extreme, but a dog with a good level will stay in it and work the problem. I was really looking forward to a little Valor sister.


----------



## Hopps

David Winners said:


> Dogs with drive react to stuff. It's not over the top. Basically excitement, and its normal for young dogs.
> 
> Just work towards being a good dog in a consistent manner. Pups all go through stages and handling those stages with confidence and consistency is the key to building good dogs.
> 
> It's easier, for me anyways, to have a dog that is forward and pushy that can take a correction in stride. So I don't really find it difficult to fix the problem unless the dog is soft or nervy and a correction makes things worse. Then you have to go the whole LAT, desensitization route and I don't care for that.
> 
> Rarely do you find a confident, forward pup that doesn't react to people and dogs once in a while. I want a pup that is full of himself. I may have to squish some of that once in a while but that is preferable to me than trying to build confidence in a pup.
> 
> Valor isn't a pup a for everyone. I'd recommend most novice owners start with an easier dog. He moves and thinks fast, and a few successful reps creates a behavior. If that's a less than desirable behavior, you have to figure out how to extinguish it.
> 
> I'm ok with a pup being a teenager and screwing up. I keep them in line and work towards being a great adult.


I see! Thank you for the explanation, it’s very helpful. This thread is amazing, a rare opportunity for me to see the development of a workline dog without being bullied by one.


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> 2 years old today!
> 
> Happy Birthday Nerd
> 
> View attachment 586659


Happy birthday Valor, 3rd birthday pic i expect to see a cartwheel or somersault! 🤪


----------



## BigOzzy2018

Happy Birthday bud.


----------



## peachygeorgia

Happy Birthday Valor! Seems like such a wonderful boy


----------



## REEHGE

Carter Smith said:


> Happy birthday Valor, 3rd birthday pic i expect to see a cartwheel or somersault! 🤪


Valor can't be expected to put on the show for his own birthday, I thought David would do the cartwheels for Valor🥳


----------



## Fodder

Tentative name is Valor…
Is this official yet!? 😄


----------



## David Winners

Fodder said:


> Tentative name is Valor…
> Is this official yet!? 😄


I think so 

Though I call him nerd.


----------



## ksotto333

Happy birthday big boy!


----------



## WNGD

There's no way Valor is 2, you just got him a few months ago. Rogan will be 2.5 years this months....there's no way.


----------



## finn'smom

Happy Happy Birthday Valor!


----------



## Countrygal

Happy (belated) birthday, Valor, from little sis Sophie Mae!


----------



## Carter Smith

Countrygal said:


> Happy (belated) birthday, Valor, from little sis Sophie Mae!
> View attachment 586883


Great looking dog!


----------



## Dustinb80

So purdy


----------



## HHighlands

Happy birthday Valor from your half sister Mya


----------



## David Winners




----------



## drparker151

I know that look, I will sit over here in the cool grass watching you, while I wait for our next adventure.


----------



## WNGD

Can Valor pull that tree over???


----------



## Carter Smith

He looks a little concerned he isn’t right beside you


----------



## David Winners

drparker151 said:


> I know that look, I will sit over here in the cool grass watching you, while I wait for our next adventure.


That's exactly it! He's content to hang out. There's a playground adjacent to our site and he's non reactive to all the kids walking by and playing. 

I've been taking him on all my campground rounds. I put him in a down by the golf cart or up on the picnic table while I clean up the site and then he jogs along by the golf cart to the next site.

We go around the lake every morning to get the list from the office and he runs along. 

It's a good life for a boy and his dog


----------



## David Winners

WNGD said:


> Can Valor pull that tree over???


No, but don't tell him that 😂


----------



## David Winners

He's


Carter Smith said:


> He looks a little concerned he isn’t right beside you


Just keeping an eye on things.


----------



## Carter Smith

Would Valor be considered red sable?


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> Would Valor be considered red sable?


No. His coat just looks red in some light.


----------



## Carter Smith

Wow looks like a different dog


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> Wow looks like a different dog


Lol... I figured him playing tug with a strange lady on the floor in a bar would draw comment 

His coat looks different depending on the light, and probably the camera as well.


----------



## Carter Smith

Did she sign a waiver?


----------



## Hopps

Jesus Christ, has he ever headbutted you while going full speed on accident (or on purpose?!). He looks like a living battering ram, armed with teeth and the face of the cutest teddy bear.


----------



## David Winners

Hopps said:


> Jesus Christ, has he ever headbutted you while going full speed on accident (or on purpose?!). He looks like a living battering ram, armed with teeth and the face of the cutest teddy bear.


No head butts, but he's shoulder checked me a few times. He's definitely a solid dog and he's rather fast. I had to put a stop to that.


----------



## Hopps

I have another question about one of the new videos you posted on YouTube. It’s Valor playing with a squishy ball near your grandchild (congrats). I know you had mentioned he was already very gentle with children. 

But was there any “fine tuning” or anything like that minus close supervision? Valor had very very good control over his body and mindset(?). He took direction well all while keeping track of himself in relation to the adult and child. It felt like Valor would have easily played fetch with Colin if he was old enough. I don’t recall your adventure with him involving very close contact with children repeatedly.

Is this a combination of genetics + excellent foundation + very experienced handler?


----------



## Sunflowers

Look at that mask.
When he was little, we called him Bandit 😃


----------



## David Winners

Here's the video with my grandson. He's 6 months.






I'll respond in a bit.


----------



## David Winners

Hopps said:


> I have another question about one of the new videos you posted on YouTube. It’s Valor playing with a squishy ball near your grandchild (congrats). I know you had mentioned he was already very gentle with children.
> 
> But was there any “fine tuning” or anything like that minus close supervision? Valor had very very good control over his body and mindset(?). He took direction well all while keeping track of himself in relation to the adult and child. It felt like Valor would have easily played fetch with Colin if he was old enough. I don’t recall your adventure with him involving very close contact with children repeatedly.
> 
> Is this a combination of genetics + excellent foundation + very experienced handler?


I don't think I can accurately answer your question without a lot of supposition.

Dog ownership/training is all about putting the odds in your favor. Good breeder, good genetics, temperament that will likely work with yours, hard work in all aspects to lay good foundation and teach effective communication, recognizing what the dog likes and using that in your favor. 

I don't believe that any one thing makes a good dog. 

I haven't done any particular specialized training around babies. Praise for good behavior and verbal correction for inappropriate behavior. He's always been great around babies and he understands how we communicate with dogs in our home. I work on impulse control from day one with dogs like this and they learn to control their emotions to accomplish what is asked of them. 

I had a very clear picture of what I wanted out of this dog. He is a big part of my family and from day one I had that goal in mind. Everything else is whatever sounds like fun for the both of us. My selection, training and life with my dog has always been based on having a dog that can go anywhere and do anything. That includes playing fetch with babies.

I believe that genetics play a huge role in what a dog will become, but it's only a part of the equation. I can't really quantify what portion of his temperament is genetic or training or experience. I can say that he fits me and I fit him and we put the work in.


----------



## Sunsilver

Valor is 6 months in that video? How old is the baby? 
And would that qualify as a reverse mask?


----------



## David Winners

Sunsilver said:


> Valor is 6 months in that video? How old is the baby?
> And would that qualify as a reverse mask?


Valor is 2 years in that video. Colin is 6 months.

Yes. He has a reverse mask.


----------



## David Winners

I'd also like to add:

Genetics are the only thing you can't alter. You can change training, build better experiences, alter how you live with a dog to achieve results, but the genetics are what they are and you have to base everything on that fact.


----------



## Carter Smith

Funny, Ellie met a baby for the first time today, 4 months. Even though we have kids a little older she’s good with but still rambunctious, she was all happy happy saying hi to everyone when she got to the baby it was zen like she kinda moved in slow motion sniffed and licked babies hands and feet, to everyone’s adoration… she then proceeded to pop two of the older kids balls lol. Hey.. they wanted to play


----------



## Hopps

David Winners said:


> I don't think I can accurately answer your question without a lot of supposition.
> 
> Dog ownership/training is all about putting the odds in your favor. Good breeder, good genetics, temperament that will likely work with yours, hard work in all aspects to lay good foundation and teach effective communication, recognizing what the dog likes and using that in your favor.
> 
> I don't believe that any one thing makes a good dog.
> 
> I haven't done any particular specialized training around babies. Praise for good behavior and verbal correction for inappropriate behavior. He's always been great around babies and he understands how we communicate with dogs in our home. I work on impulse control from day one with dogs like this and they learn to control their emotions to accomplish what is asked of them.
> 
> I had a very clear picture of what I wanted out of this dog. He is a big part of my family and from day one I had that goal in mind. Everything else is whatever sounds like fun for the both of us. My selection, training and life with my dog has always been based on having a dog that can go anywhere and do anything. That includes playing fetch with babies.
> 
> I believe that genetics play a huge role in what a dog will become, but it's only a part of the equation. I can't really quantify what portion of his temperament is genetic or training or experience. I can say that he fits me and I fit him and we put the work in.


Thanks for the reply, I’ve only had 2 adult dogs and they’ve been very wonderful with children. Anyways, this has been quite helpful. I will continue to gather resources over the next few years and set myself up for success. Thanks for providing the videos and knowledge.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I'd also like to add:
> 
> Genetics are the only thing you can't alter. You can change training, build better experiences, alter how you live with a dog to achieve results, but the genetics are what they are and you have to base everything on that fact.


Ding, ding, ding! Can you put this on billboards everywhere please? 
Valor is an awesome boy. And so handsome. I cannot believe he is two already!
And your grandson is adorable.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> Can you put this on billboards everywhere please?


I think that would be well outside my discretionary spending budget 😂


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> Look at that mask.
> When he was little, we called him Bandit 😃
> 
> View attachment 588331


I don’t know if people realize how much he looks like his dad. Brings tears to look at him, so happy Gus passed on some of himself ❤


----------



## Saphire




----------



## David Winners

I feel so lucky to have the opportunity to raise a Gus pup. I've loved that dog from afar for a long time. 

Thanks @Saphire , Carmen and Sheena for the wonderful pup.


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> I feel so lucky to have the opportunity to raise a Gus pup. I've loved that dog from afar for a long time.
> 
> Thanks @Saphire , Carmen and Sheena for the wonderful pup.





Saphire said:


> I don’t know if people realize how much he looks like his dad. Brings tears to look at him, so happy Gus passed on some of himself ❤





Sabis mom said:


> Ding, ding, ding! Can you put this on billboards everywhere please?
> Valor is an awesome boy. And so handsome. I cannot believe he is two already!
> And your grandson is adorable.


Must be something in the water.. or the feedsentials


----------



## Sunsilver

Dave, have a question for you I'd rather not post in the forum. Sending a PM...


----------



## David Winners

So this was an interesting weekend. We had my brother in law and his GF staying in a tent right next to the camper. They have a PB and a Staffie with very little training. Neither are DA but both are excitable. 

Nerd was very good around the other dogs, including in the camper. The Staffie was very excitable, no manners, and he handled it well. He was also great on his tie out. He is really settling down and making good decisions. It's fun to watch him mature into a really great dog.

We also had an impromptu play date with a female adolescent mal. She is just a year old and probably 50 pounds. It was fast and furious 😂 They had a blast and both passed out shortly after. I wish I had my camera on. They were chasing each other over the top of a bunch of picnic tables that are in storage, all lined up next to each other in 3 lines. After an introductory period and a bit of feeling out to be sure the other dog was trustworthy, they let it all hang out. They were running in a loop and landing on the 3rd picnic table after sailing over the first 2, running full out. 

It really was a wonderful experience watching them play without reservation. They were running full out, taking turns being the bandit. She could turn quicker but he could run her down on the straights.

It was a pleasure to watch 2 good dogs just be dogs and have fun.


----------



## Sunflowers

That’s wonderful, David.
I’m smiling imagining this.
Video would have been great, but, as always, your descriptions are vivid and well written.


----------



## Carter Smith

That’s nice when you get two good dogs just having fun, such a natural but rare occurrence. Valor is living a good life!


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> That’s nice when you get two good dogs just having fun, such a natural but rare occurrence. Valor is living a good life!


We both are living a good life


----------



## WNGD

My thoughts too, your description is awesome.
My buddy has a GSD/Ridgeback cross that is Harley's girlfriend. They play like that but with a lot of noise and friendly teeth running full out. It's always fun to watch dogs be dogs.


----------



## David Winners

Morning nap after fetch off the dock.


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> Morning nap after fetch off the dock.
> View attachment 589426


Good looking dog


----------



## Saphire

David Winners said:


> Morning nap after fetch off the dock.
> View attachment 589426


My heart……❤


----------



## Hopps

Aww, dreaming about the next adventure!


----------



## Galathiel

He's a great looking and well rounded dog that you can be proud of. I've enjoyed (and shown my husband) your journey over the time you've had him and I look forward to all the updates!


----------



## David Winners

Galathiel said:


> He's a great looking and well rounded dog that you can be proud of. I've enjoyed (and shown my husband) your journey over the time you've had him and I look forward to all the updates!


I think I have the perfect dog for my personality, experience and lifestyle. I think that is the criteria that defines a good dog. There are a lot of members here that accomplish much more with their dogs than I do but I doubt that anyone enjoys their life with their dog more than me.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I doubt that anyone enjoys their life with their dog more than me.


This right here. That is really what it should be about.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> I think I have the perfect dog for my personality, experience and lifestyle. I think that is the criteria that defines a good dog. There are a lot of members here that accomplish much more with their dogs than I do but I doubt that anyone enjoys their life with their dog more than me.


The most important criteria.


----------



## Bearshandler

How are valor and Hank these days? How are you guys managing it? The question came to mine simce bear is still bear and Cion has become pretty assertive in his own right.


----------



## dogfaeries

Plus, we just really want more pictures of Valor


----------



## Hopps

Same same!


----------



## Carter Smith

Last I heard Valor was trying to pry a ball out of a snarling hanks mouth


----------



## David Winners

The boys are good. They push each other a bit on occasion and we have to settle things down but in general, they adjust to the other dog really well.

Here's a video from a couple months ago where you can see Valor changing his behavior according to Hank. When Hank pops up, Valor gives him a quick break and then calms him down by taking the submissive play role. They are taking turns.






Once in a while one of them will bite a little hard and the other will respond with a lot of forward noise and movement. No scuffles but we don't allow it to continue.


----------



## REEHGE

I'm impressed he appears so buff and so agile at the same time. Like an F350 Superduty with the speed and handling of a Mustang.


----------



## Carter Smith

I was gonna say, Valor looks jacked!


----------



## David Winners

He is very athletic and agile and gets a lot of exercise.


----------



## REEHGE

What would you say at this point-- how he's turning out overall compared to what you initially expected? Based off what you were told and first impressions as a pup? Any surprises?


----------



## David Winners

REEHGE said:


> What would you say at this point-- how he's turning out overall compared to what you initially expected? Based off what you were told and first impressions as a pup? Any surprises?


None at all temperament wise, other than maybe being more likely to snuggle than I expected.

I haven't done any protection work with him, so I can't comment there, but he's a really solid dog in every situation. Very biddable and easy to train. Gets along with everyone. Comfortable in strange and hectic situations. Great with kids.

I am surprised at his athleticism. He's not big by any means at 84 pounds or so, but he can really move like a much lighter dog. I would say that he's among the fastest GSDs I've been around but that is speculation without both dogs there. He's definitely more agile than Fama was, even when she was only 65 pounds.


----------



## Carter Smith

Have you done anything formal with Valor yet? I noticed early posts said you wanted to try IPO or PSA.. just curious if you have and now he did?


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> Have you done anything formal with Valor yet? I noticed early posts said you wanted to try IPO or PSA.. just curious if you have and now he did?


I have not. It's a time thing. When we are around home, I'm busy at work or with the grandkids. Then we travel 5 months.


----------



## David Winners

A couple of pics for fun


----------



## Sabis mom

I am always stunned at how gorgeous he is. He should come visit me!

Love the T-shirt!


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> A couple of pics for fun
> View attachment 591131
> 
> View attachment 591130
> 
> View attachment 591129


What a good looking dog, nicely symmetrical head. Half sister Ellie says hi, note the stair treads that didn’t phase her first time.


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> What a good looking dog, nicely symmetrical head. Half sister Ellie says hi, note the stair treads that didn’t phase her first time.
> View attachment 591133


She's gorgeous!

I wish I had video of Valor at 10 weeks walking up a steel fire escape. Solid dogs for sure.


----------



## Sabis mom

Carter Smith said:


> What a good looking dog, nicely symmetrical head. Half sister Ellie says hi, note the stair treads that didn’t phase her first time.


Wow! She sure got Momma's looks!


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> She's gorgeous!
> 
> I wish I had video of Valor at 10 weeks walking up a steel fire escape. Solid dogs for sure.


Thanks! Ya something about them for sure.


----------



## WNGD

Carter Smith said:


> What a good looking dog, nicely symmetrical head. Half sister Ellie says hi, note the stair treads that didn’t phase her first time.
> View attachment 591133


Is that Hamilton? I forget where you're from


----------



## Carter Smith

WNGD said:


> Is that Hamilton? I forget where you're from


Yep, chedoke stairs.


----------



## WNGD

Carter Smith said:


> Yep, chedoke stairs.


I thought I recognized it, run up and down them many times


----------



## Carter Smith

WNGD said:


> I thought I recognized it, run up and down them many times


Same, a lot more before kids


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I am always stunned at how gorgeous he is. He should come visit me!
> 
> Love the T-shirt!


That t-shirt is a pic of me and Fama 

It's this picture.


----------



## Hopps

David Winners said:


> A couple of pics for fun
> 
> View attachment 591130


He looks like he made contact with dogs on the moon or something.

Do you think Valor is a cute or does he just look like a dog to you? To me he looks almost like a stuffed animal??


----------



## David Winners

Hopps said:


> He looks like he made contact with dogs on the moon or something.
> 
> Do you think Valor is a cute or does he just look like a dog to you? To me he looks almost like a stuffed animal??


I think he's a handsome boy


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> That t-shirt is a pic of me and Fama
> 
> It's this picture.
> View attachment 591151


I'm not sure if Fama was thinking "I could get a way better trajectory from up here!" or "That's right slave, carry me so all will know I rule!"
I love seeing pics of you and her.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> I'm not sure if Fama was thinking "I could get a way better trajectory from up here!" or "That's right slave, carry me so all will know I rule!"
> I love seeing pics of you and her.


We were coming off a CH47 and she wanted to eat everyone. This was a way to disable that outcome. Had she been on a leash, anyone near would have been muzzle punched so I put her on my shoulder.

My buddy snapped the pic. It's one of my favorites.


----------



## jarn

WNGD said:


> I thought I recognized it, run up and down them many times


Have you ever done the stair event there? I have some friends who came 1, 2 last year, I was exhausted just hearing about it. 

Sorry to thread hijack David! Valor is as always hubba hubba handsome! and a very good doggo!


----------



## WNGD

jarn said:


> Have you ever done the stair event there? I have some friends who came 1, 2 last year, I was exhausted just hearing about it.
> 
> Sorry to thread hijack David! Valor is as always hubba hubba handsome! and a very good doggo!


No, just used to go with my daughter, she's a good athlete, runner, weights, tennis, golf


----------



## jarn

@WNGD I do hill repeats, but there's something evil about stairs...mind you, now that I live in a 24-story building, sometimes I do them as a pre-weights warm up and blegh.


----------



## WNGD

jarn said:


> @WNGD I do hill repeats, but there's something evil about stairs...mind you, now that I live in a 24-story building, sometimes I do them as a pre-weights warm up and blegh.


They closed them down during COVID and I haven't been back. I have a really deep ravine out back and get my leg workout there  The dogs do it 3X for ever one I do


----------



## jarn

WNGD said:


> They closed them down during COVID and I haven't been back. I have a really deep ravine out back and get my leg workout there  The dogs do it 3X for ever one I do


Show-offs!


----------



## David Winners

_







_


----------



## Sabis mom

@David Winners that picture is precious! 
Carmen is another that does not tolerate intolerance or aggression toward children in her dogs.


----------



## David Winners

Sabis mom said:


> @David Winners that picture is precious!
> Carmen is another that does not tolerate intolerance or aggression toward children in her dogs.


Carmen had the same dog as her goal as I do.

He's always been amazing with kids.
3 months old.













Valor and Asher 2







youtube.com





6 months





2 years


----------



## Carter Smith

Good job Valor, when is he getting his babysitting ticket. 
I second their dogs fondness of children !


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> Good job Valor, when is he getting his babysitting ticket.
> I second their dogs fondness of children !


I don't know what a babysitting ticket is.

He definitely keeps an eye on the kids and will track them down if they wander off away from the camper. He was running along with the four wheeler and playing in the pool this weekend.

At our new location there is a young male puppy GSD. 3 months old. He follows Valor around like crazy. Valor is doing a good job with him, being patient and sharing toys.


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> I don't know what a babysitting ticket is.
> 
> He definitely keeps an eye on the kids and will track them down if they wander off away from the camper. He was running along with the four wheeler and playing in the pool this weekend.
> 
> At our new location there is a young male puppy GSD. 3 months old. He follows Valor around like crazy. Valor is doing a good job with him, being patient and sharing toys.


Babysitter ticket is something little humans get okaying them to babysit lol.

What a lucky pup that other gsd is to have Valor showing him the ropes. Good test for Valor to, Ellie tends to resource guard a little.. verbal corrections work right away, “Ahh ahh” no growl or any type of show.. she would just prefer to have anything valuable in her possession lol.


----------



## tysco

David Winners said:


> _
> View attachment 591189
> _












How sweet are these dogs?!


----------



## tysco

Picture updates of our girl!




































ALWAYS has to be front and center


----------



## David Winners

tysco said:


> Picture updates of our girl!
> View attachment 591267
> 
> 
> View attachment 591268
> 
> 
> View attachment 591269
> 
> 
> View attachment 591270
> 
> 
> ALWAYS has to be front and center
> 
> View attachment 591274
> 
> 
> View attachment 591272


She's gorgeous!

And it looks like she's living the life!!!


----------



## Saphire

tysco said:


> Picture updates of our girl!
> View attachment 591267
> 
> 
> View attachment 591268
> 
> 
> View attachment 591269
> 
> 
> View attachment 591270
> 
> 
> ALWAYS has to be front and center
> 
> View attachment 591274
> 
> 
> View attachment 591272


She is stunning!


----------



## David Winners

tysco said:


> Picture updates of our girl!
> View attachment 591267
> 
> 
> View attachment 591268
> 
> 
> View attachment 591269
> 
> 
> View attachment 591270
> 
> 
> ALWAYS has to be front and center
> 
> View attachment 591274
> 
> 
> View attachment 591272


She looks like Max here!


----------



## Carter Smith

I can’t get over how much Valor and her look alike


----------



## David Winners

Maximus


----------



## David Winners

Enjoying our current location with 5 acres to run and play.


----------



## Carter Smith

All I see is head, while Ellie is on the shelf I started doing some amateur scent discrimination with cheese and rollover and trying to get her to signal the hide with a down, she’s helping me through it lol.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> Enjoying our current location with 5 acres to run and play.
> View attachment 591498


Where are y’all hanging out right now?


----------



## David Winners

Bearshandler said:


> Where are y’all hanging out right now?


NW Ohio, at my sister's until November. They have a nice spot in the country with a pool 

I think we are doing the east coast next summer. We should hook up.


----------



## David Winners

A short video from tonight. We had been playing fetch and things for half an hour.


----------



## Bearshandler

David Winners said:


> NW Ohio, at my sister's until November. They have a nice spot in the country with a pool
> 
> I think we are doing the east coast next summer. We should hook up.


That’s a nice place to crash. Definitely let me whenever you make your way north.


----------



## Carter Smith

Lol, I love the snap at the bug


----------



## David Winners

@Carter Smith something besides a head shot 

He's always looking at me so it's tough to get pics from the side when he's awake.

After adventure nap this morning. He's still filling out at 2-1/2


----------



## Carter Smith

Oh don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the masculine head! I’m just infatuated with these dogs and everything they are. So intense and fierce, driven and freakishly athletic, yet sweet and soft, family oriented. I can’t wait for another one day.. long down the road lol.


----------



## David Winners

Almost 2.5 years old.

We went on a hike with the granddaughter today and she was taking pictures.

We were in an old growth forest. Some of the trees date back to before the civil war.


----------



## WNGD

Dogs (and people) need to be in forests regularly ....


----------



## Carter Smith

How often do you have to use the DD collar David?


----------



## David Winners

Carter Smith said:


> How often do you have to use the DD collar David?


He wears it all the time but I can't remember the last collar correction he had.


----------



## Carter Smith

David Winners said:


> Her wears it all the time but I can't remember the last collar correction he had.


Miss Intensity says hi, I see some resemblance in Ellie and Valors eyes


----------



## Hopps

Do you have anything planned for Valor in 2023? PSA/IPO/nosework?


----------



## David Winners

It depends on what life brings. There are some things up in the air right now.


----------



## Saphire

Carter Smith said:


> Lol, I love the snap at the bug


His Daddy lived to eat bees 🐝 soooo he comes by it naturally.


----------

