# My dog bit my niece!



## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Lately, my dog's food aggression has been escalating. Mainly when I pet him when he is eating, but recently a few different scenarios prompt a growl. As a puppy, I was able to put my hand in his bowl and take his food from him and give it back after he sits or downs, in hopes to never see this behavior. He will growl at me when I pet him when he is eating. I've tried a bunch of different things to try and fix this including Cesar's methods, but if one doesn't work the first time I just try the next one. Bad on my part, but I really want to find something that works. I did try popping his collar like my trainer said to do, but we seem to find ourselves frozen in a tense battle of the waiting game to see who makes the first move.

Recently, he has been growling at new situations. He has a bed in our living room that he has never been possessive over, but he growled ONCE at me the other day and I quickly made him yield and said, "Move, move" and walked on the bed and just stood there. He hasn't growled on the bed since. He also growled at my wife when she went to throw something away in the trash can which happened to be by his bowl. We normally change feeding locations every now and then to prevent him associating bad locations for mealtime.

Well yesterday, it jumped to a whole new level. We went to my sister's house to have a crawfish boil. Drago came with us and on the ride over I told my wife since I was boiling the crawfish, I wanted her to keep a constant eye on Drago when out of the crate. We have 3 young nieces, all of whom Drago has met before and hasn't had a problem with. When we took Drago out of the truck, they all came out to greet us and the neighbor's kid ran up to Drago in a very brave, confident manner and Drago welcomed him by licking his hand and getting real excited. I thought that was great that Drago wasn't fearful of kids he hasn't met before. So, we continue on with the afternoon. Drago has been in that backyard before and has met all of the people there before as well. Very small crowd. As I was prepping the crawfish, Drago was curiously watching the crawfish since it was his first time with that. My niece Hailey walked up and started petting him as she always does without a problem and Drago started growling at which point I immediately looked at the situation to see Drago turning his head, ears back, and then he bit Hailey's wrist. I immediately grabbed him and removed him from the situation, putting him in his crate in their garage. After talking to my wife on what happened before I turned my head, she said Hailey pet him, then he growled, then Hailey pet Drago again trying to calm him, and then he went for her wrist. I'm pretty sure it was a bite then release as opposed to bite, hold, and shake even though I was there immediately to stop him. Obviously, Hailey was crying, but soon calmed down. He didn't break the skin and there was just one red dot. I was furious and didn't know how to react. I just had no idea why he did that. There was no food or bowl in sight, his closest toy(which he never has growled over) was at least six feet to the left of him. The only thing I could think of at the time was maybe she stepped on his foot or something, but everyone said no. Hailey still wanted to play with Drago afterwards so thankfully it didn't turn her off to him or dogs forever. I still kept him out of sight for the rest of the day. 

Now the girls have always loved playing with Drago and throwing his toys, but sometimes I think he may be getting tired so I would put him up in the past. I thought that maybe yesterday he was just on edge meeting a crawfish for the first time. I really don't know what else it could have been. Wouldn't he just walk away if he was getting annoyed with the girls?

Please let me know what direction to take with this and his food/general aggression. It is 100% unacceptable for him to go after a child like that. I want to be able to trust him while around kids and I do know that no dog should EVER be left alone with kids without supervision. Good thing I was only 3 feet away. I guess the food thing has to do with him thinking he is alpha over me and my wife, even though we do alpha exercises everyday. Please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me something can be done to fix this. 



P.S. Would neutering him minimize his aggression due to lower testosterone or is that just for male to male aggression and desire to roam (mate)?

Thanks.


Andrew


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Lots of excitement, new smells, not his yard, warning growl...

I wouldn't go off the deep end here. If he had really meant to hurt her, I don't think you'd see such a minor wound.

Back up and be more careful when around foods and kids.

He sounds like a good dog.

IMO, neutering him won't change his temperament.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

"As I was prepping the crawfish, Drago was curiously watching the crawfish since it was his first time with that. My niece Hailey walked up and started petting him as she always does without a problem and Drago started growling at which point I immediately looked at the situation to see Drago turning his head, ears back, and then he bit Hailey's wrist."

He bit her because he was resource guarding the crawfish.

She interfered with this. 
He gave a warning (growl)
She didn't heed his warning (kept petting.)
Dog bit your niece. 

He should not have been allowed to focus on the food for any length of time if he is food aggressive.
I would implement NILIF and hand feed him for a while.
Don't pet him when he is eating. There is a thread just about this on the forum now.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...m-breaking-down-right-now-tears-confused.html


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

How old is he?

You never pet a dog to calm them...touching means approval...so touching while growling is approval of the growling. He was giving her a warning to stop touching him, she didn't stop, so he bit.

You shouldn't be correcting him while he's eating. He's not equating the growling as the wrong thing...he's equating eating being the wrong thing. You're putting him through pain while he's trying to eat...so of course he's not going to like it. You have also shown in the past that you'll take his food away, well you actually escalated the resource guarding by doing that.

What you should've done is added something special to the food each time you took it away. That way he equates you taking the food bowl to something good coming. At this point...no one should be near him while he's eating food. He clearly has an issue if he growls at YOU while its feeding time just for petting him. You're the one that gives him the food and yet he's still warning you to stay away.

Get him into a lot of obedience. Show him that you're his leader and that you're going to be fair with him. Right now, you're not being fair at all. He does nothing wrong but eat and he gets tugged on or gets the food taken away.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Some extra details. He is 7 months old and intact.

Hailey pet him like she always does and when he growled, she pet him again. I know that wasn't right on her part but she is a kid and I think if she would have pulled away that would tell Drago growling works. Right?

Very good at obedience. He knows sit, down, stay, heel, drop it, leave it, crate, out/off (bedroom/couch/etc).

I always make him eat after all the humans and work for his food by performing a few obedience lessons. I then make him stay, put the food down, and then give release word to eat. I can hand feed him all day long without problems. I DO add turkey occasionally to his bowl as well.

I can take toys, shoes, anything from him...EVEN his bowl. It's just if I pet him and I'm sure some people are going to say then stop petting him, but what if someone else does and he bites them...like my niece?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

zyppi said:


> Lots of excitement, new smells, not his yard, warning growl...
> 
> I wouldn't go off the deep end here. If he had really meant to hurt her, I don't think you'd see such a minor wound.
> 
> ...


Sorry...but he does not sound like a "good dog." He bit someone, a kid for that matter. If this wasn't a niece, you'd probably have a few more issues than you do right now.

There is questionable leadership in the household, he believes he has to fight for food, so he will guard it.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Try feeding him by hand for a while.
or 
Just put a small amount in his dish. When he finishes that let him wait a few minutes then put another small amount in. You will only handle his dish when it is empty.
Don't make contact with him while he eats.
You could also try holding the dish while he eats. Make him sit and come to you to eat when YOU are ready... doing the small amount routine.

I don't understand why people think they should/could pet their dogs while eating .... seems kind of aggravating to me.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Drunlu said:


> It's just if I pet him and I'm sure some people are going to say then stop petting him, but what if someone else does and he bites them...like my niece?


Are you saying he bites if he is petted? Or does he bite or growl if he is petted while _eating?_


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

There are alot of posts on this board regarding food aggression. 

I don't agree with messing with a dog's food. I think even tho your intention was to prevent this very type of thing, by messing with his food, it's backfired.

I agree with the above, he may not have been right next to the food, but the smells are there, food is in the vacinity.

My suggestion, until you can get his food aggression under control keep him away from food sources especially if you have kids/guests around. When your eating, cooking, crate him.

I would stop messing with his meals, Feed him in his crate. Leave him alone when he has his meals. Let things calm down for a bit. 

I'm not sure I agree with taking his food away and giving him something even better "back", right now, I don't think he's going to see this as a good thing, just that you are still taking his food away.

Personally, I would sit down, and feed him each meal by hand, one piece at a time in a quiet calm manner. 

I admit I have never had any dog that was food aggressive, I've never messed with my dogs' food/bones/ etc, and, have ever had a problem with me or anyone else removing food from any of my german shepherds. 

Hope you can resolve the issue


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

A few of the methods I have tried,


1) Hand feed
2) Feed small amounts and make sure he watches me add food to the bowl.
3) Hold the bowl
4) Cesar sometimes puts food bowl on a stool or something so that the dog can't stand over (own) his food. I've tried that as well.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

He growls only when petted while eating? Is that really too much to ask. All of the dogs I had in the past didn't mind a calm petting while eating. Why is Drago different?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think it's time you got some professional outside help..A behaviorist/someone savvy that has worked with german shepherds.

He;s growling while he's eating because he thinks you are going to take his food away, and the growling is a warning / prelude to a bite. He is not like your other german shepherds, he is his own dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Drunlu said:


> He growls only when petted while eating? Is that really too much to ask. All of the dogs I had in the past didn't mind a calm petting while eating. Why is Drago different?


Um, because dogs are individuals and not clones?


I would not like to be petted while eating. 

Seriously, I, too, believe dogs should be respected when they eat, and not messed with. It is a very primal, important thing, and they should not be bugged while doing it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think it's time you got some professional outside help..A behaviorist/someone savvy that has worked with german shepherds.


:thumbup:

You pup is 7 months old. It sits on the borderline right now of being a serious problem for you. Please seek professional assistance with your pup. This can be easily nipped in the bud, but you really need someone who can observe the behavior of your pup before providing advice.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah its weird that he growls when you pet him, but doesn't actually snap and bite if you're taking the bowl away. At least that's what I've read...

I'm not sure who told you to correct him when he growls, but that was incorrect. Now you really need to start at step one and I would do some sort of a shut down phase where he's locked in a kennel to eat so that he knows no one can touch him. Probably for a good month or so you shouldn't mess with feeding time. Then slowly start leaving the door open for a while, then sitting next to him for a while while he's eating. Do everything pretty slow, don't try to rush the method, it might take months.

BTW...my comment about adding something better was directed at what should've happened before (if one is to pull the bowl away), not something you should do now.

I would not have any food around this dog when others are around. I would really limit the interaction between the dog and any kind of people food. Don't allow him anywhere near where you eat ect.

I've never dealt with food aggression but it does sound like although you meant to do something good, it backfired. Contact a behaviorist, or find a GSD group where there might be people knowledgeable in this subject. A Schutzhund club perhaps could help you solve this issue.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think martemchick, and I could be wrong, op was saying the dog growls when petting him while he is eating..

gotcha on the something better should have happened before


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

I don't think he was resource guarding the crawfish. And honestly? Your dog did NOT bite your niece. If he bit your niece, then she would not have a hand. He mouthed her AFTER politely warning her with a growl "Please don't pet me I'm uncomfortable". From how you describe the situation, he was looking away from her too. Looking away, ears back, growling, are all signs of fear. Your niece crossed his threshold and he responded. 
Your dog lacks trust in you and your nieces. 
Don't be mad at your dog, be grateful your dog has some bite inhibition, many people are not as fortunate as you or your niece.

Work on a strong leave it and recall command. A lot of times it is easier to call your dog away from an object (they are giving it up) rather than try to pull it out from under them (you're trying to muscle it from them with can cause fear/insecurity).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that while that was not what you want to have happen, if the dog was aggressively biting your niece, she would have needed stitches. We want that to NEVER happen. 

I think your best bet is to completely change everything you are doing with your puppy because it is NOT working. 

1. Don't mess with his food or his dish, don't make food or mealtimes a big deal. Feed him in his crate and leave him be to eat it. I would not make him work for it. I would not try to take it back. I would not move the dish around. I would not even bother with the crap about making sure he eats after the people. He is very food oriented and even fixated on food. I would stop making food even a higher value by doing all the interaction around food. 

2. Management. Continue to train and socialize your dog, but put him in his crate until after the food is put away, and you have all of your attention to ensure you are very present with all interactions. Put him up BEFORE he gets too much interaction, you do not want him to be overwhelmed. A little is a lot. 7 months can be a tricky time. You need to be able to stop a problem before it becomes a problem. And since food is so high value at this time, you need to ensure food is not a part of the equation. A game of fetch and then the dog goes back into the crate. 

3. Training, get your dog into regular training. Go every week, work a little every day. The idea is to build the bond between you and any other members of your immediate family and the dog. You might take him for six weeks then repeat with your wife taking him. He will be maturing during this time, but if you go to the same trainer, you will not be giving mixed signals. Even if his obedience is good, going to regular classes can be very helpful. If he is there in obedience, switch to puppy agility. 

4. Behaviorist. Get him evaluated. I think that this was a warning, not an aggressive bite. He was correcting your niece for not stopping petting him when he was focussed on food. And maybe even for acting like you with regards to food. 

Seriously, I would probably feed the dog at 7AM in his crate and then again at 7PM in his crate, and I would probably not make any mention of food at any other time. If you give the dog a chew that is only during crate time, and he is left totally alone with it. During training only will there be tidbits, and that is only coming from the adults doing the training.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your dog is growling at you and your wife and you took
him to a party. don't put your dog in situations where
he may growl or bite. find a trainer/behaviourist. good
luck.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Drunlu said:


> Hailey pet him like she always does and when he growled, she pet him again. I know that wasn't right on her part but she is a kid and I think if she would have pulled away that would tell Drago growling works. Right?


Well, in a situation like this, growling SHOULD work. He was giving a signal that he was uncomfortable with what she was doing at that moment, and if she'd heeded it she likely would not have been bitten. Wouldn't that have been better? What did he learn by having her not back down when he growled? Probably that his early warning signals will be ignored, so he has no choice but to escalate to a bite. 

No matter what else you do, I think you need to make sure that your nieces understand that they should give him some space when there's food around, and if he ever growls again, they have to stop and back off, not continue what they were doing. 

If he's growling due to resource guarding, then you work on that as a separate issue. The thread that Sunflowers linked to has some good information on how to do that. In the meantime, manage him the way Jakoda suggests. Keeping everyone safe, especially children, is the biggest priority right now. 



> He growls only when petted while eating? Is that really too much to ask. All of the dogs I had in the past didn't mind a calm petting while eating. Why is Drago different?


Why he's different is less important than the fact that he IS different. Respect that rather than expecting him to conform to your expectations of how he "should" be. Just like people have different personalities, dogs do too. Each of mine have been individuals in their own right, with their own unique personalities. 



> *I guess the food thing has to do with him thinking he is alpha over me and my wife*, even though we do alpha exercises everyday.


Absolutely not, this has nothing to do with who is alpha. Really, Cesar would be the last person I'd be emulating in this kind of situation, his over-reliance on outdated dominance theory is totally counterproductive when you've got guarding behavior going on.

What kind of "alpha exercises" do you do?


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> He;s growling while he's eating because he thinks you are going to take his food away, and the growling is a warning / prelude to a bite. He is not like your other german shepherds, he is his own dog.


Like I said, I can take his bowl away WITHOUT a growl so I don't think he growls because he thinks I'm stealing his food. He only growls if I or someone were to pet him while he's eating.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> From how you describe the situation, he was looking away from her too. Looking away, ears back, growling, are all signs of fear. Your niece crossed his threshold and he responded.
> Your dog lacks trust in you and your nieces.
> Don't be mad at your dog, be grateful your dog has some bite inhibition, many people are not as fortunate as you or your niece.


Sorry if there was confusion. He didn't put his ears back and start growling until she pet him the first time. He wasn't growling at the crawfish. I am very grateful she wasn't hurt because I know his potential. Still, biting/nipping a child doesn't go over well with me.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> your dog is growling at you and your wife and you took
> him to a party. don't put your dog in situations where
> he may growl or bite. find a trainer/behaviourist. good
> luck.


Party is the wrong word. It wasn't a college party with loud music and drunks. There were maybe 8 family members outside enjoying the afternoon. Drago has been in that backyard multiple times and has met everyone except the neighbor's kid(who wasn't present for the warning bite) multiple times. The only new experience he had was a crawfish. I thought socializing him to one wouldn't be a bad idea. If I would have known Hailey was going to pet him I would have prevented that. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to bring my dog to family gatherings?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Drunlu said:


> Party is the wrong word. It wasn't a college party with loud music and drunks Are you saying I shouldn't be able to bring my dog to family gatherings?


If my dog bit my niece because she petted him, I would not bring him again, but that's just me.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Absolutely not, this has nothing to do with who is alpha. Really, Cesar would be the last person I'd be emulating in this kind of situation, his over-reliance on outdated dominance theory is totally counterproductive when you've got guarding behavior going on.
> 
> What kind of "alpha exercises" do you do?


Really?? Are you saying food aggression has nothing to do with a dog thinking he is more dominant than the human? Dominance theory is totally counterproductive with guarding? Please explain...

According to 2 different trainers that we go to, alpha exercises are small things done throughout the day to maintain the alpha role, which I guess you aren't worried about. Making a dog give way to you, not the other way around. Humans walk through doorway first. Simple obedience sessions are forms of alpha exercises. Anything that tells your dog you are in control. As of right now, I don't feel in control of mealtime.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> If my dog bit my niece because she petted him, I would not bring him again, but that's just me.


So I should just not trust my dog ever again and keep him within the confines of our house at 7 months old? I know it sounds like I'm getting defensive and if so I apologize for that. I just can't understand why some people are saying don't take him out to new situations. I thought that is what socialization was if done properly unlike the other day. When Drago is an adult and calmer than the puppy he is now, I still won't be able to bring him to my family and friends because of something he did one day that wasn't his fault?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Drunlu said:


> So I should just not trust my dog ever again and keep him within the confines of our house at 7 months old? I know it sounds like I'm getting defensive and if so I apologize for that. I just can't understand why some people are saying don't take him out to new situations. I thought that is what socialization was if done properly unlike the other day. When Drago is an adult and calmer than the puppy he is now, I still won't be able to bring him to my family and friends because of something he did one day that wasn't his fault?


But it was his fault.
A stable dog doesn't do this. 
He is not stable, and should not be loose in places where he could bite people. 
Take him out, but have him on leash, under your control, and do not overwhelm him with crowds of people where he feels uncomfortable enough to bite.

When he is an adult he will not necessarily be calmer. He is who he is. Know your dog, know what you have, and manage him accordingly.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You don't take him to new situations because you don't want to "over stimulate." Dogs don't learn when they're over stimulated...they are too stressed to connect why you're correcting or why they're doing whatever it is you're asking them to do. This is why people slowly introduce dogs to situations in which the dog might "fail." You don't throw your dog into a pool if it can't swim...you gently coax it to get comfortable with the water.

Cesar would consider me a failure...I let my dog get away with murder. But my dog still looks at me as a leader and will do whatever I ask of him. I let him run out the door in front of me (I can ask him to wait if I wanted to, but I don't). I let him climb on the couch, I let him win tug, I let him get on top of me while wrestling. But the moment I say "sit" his butt is on the ground.

You can't say "when Drago is an adult and clamer..." he might not get calmer, he might get worse. He might get more fearful, or more guarded about resources if you don't step in and do something now. THE BITE WAS HIS FAULT!!! Your niece didn't ask for it, and it was your mistake to allow her to "calm" him by continuing to pet him...but the fact is THE BITE WAS HIS FAULT. Until you re-socialize him and work through his resource guarding issues...you shouldn't bring him around people. It's clear that if there is food...and he gets touched...he'll lash out. Next time, he might be a year old when he does it, and it won't be just a 7 month old nip, but a full on dog bite.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Ok note taken. So now what do I do other than not let him around people aka no more dog park and no more leaving the house/backyard and no more obedience classes like a lot of you have told me to do? Just feed him in the morning in his nice dark crate and then feed him in the evening in his nice dark crate? That doesn't sound like a good life for him. I am willing to accept full blame for what happened. I just don't know where to go from here.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Come on, now, that is not what we told you to do.

Train him. Take him wherever you want to, just avoid having him loose and in crowded places, watch him and gauge his reactions. Keep him leashed, and under your control.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

Drunlu, you've been given some fairly decent advice on this topic. Increased training, get a behaviourist, feed your dog quietly and in peace- which frankly I think most dogs appreciate. You say yourself his behaviour has been escalating, I think it is fair to say then that something in wrong in your current training model, no?
Some dogs are really fixated on food, they just are. And it can be great as a tool, but when it comes to resource guarding it's a nightmare and rather difficult to fix. You, however, need to understand that in order to keep everyone- nieces included and your dog- safe, he cannot be allowed to intermingle with all and sundry until you have full control over him, which you don't at the moment. He is growling at you and your wife, the people he ought to respect most, it would not be a stretch for this young dog to bite when pushed.
I'd suggest feeding him quietly and in peace- stop petting him when he is eating. I would then seriously up his training and work hard to build up his confidence in you and your wife. And if I were you I'd really try to forget a lot of the Cesear stuff, which can genuinely make a lot of things worse with young dogs.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Ok first of all I apologize to everyone. I came here for honest answers and that's what I got. I just feel like I screwed my dog up by trying to PREVENT my dog from getting screwed up. Not the best feeling right now.

I always have him leashed in public due to my own concerns and it's state law. As a puppy, I would take him to an outdoor shopping area while my wife was jumping from store to store and let strangers come up and pet him and so that he could smell new smells and hear new sounds. He loved it, but should I not take him there anymore? 

As far as my nieces go, is there any possible way they could interact with Drago? That is all they talk about when they see me or my wife. Maybe after he ate with no food or bowls in sight? One calm niece at a time to drop a treat in his crate so he associates them as positive things? Two days after the incident, we were babysitting the girls at our house and I just felt more comfortable moving Drago's crate into our bathroom and not letting the girls see him at all. It killed me and them. I felt like I was locking away a monster. I just hope it isn't always like that. 

I have an email into a behaviorist right now to see if he can help us. Waiting on a response...


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Also, if I never would have petted him while he was eating, I never would have found this problem. Like I said, I can take his bowl without issue. So for those of you that have never pet your dog while eating, would he/she growl at you if you did and if so would that be a problem? 

I guess it just bothers me because what if I never knew he growled while being petted during mealtime and that he didn't have food aggression due to me being able to take his bowl. Then he would be the perfect dog right or so I thought. Is my dog the same as yours? Will yours growl if petted while eating?

Do all of our dogs need a behaviorist like Drago does if they growl while eating?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Drunlu said:


> Ok first of all I apologize to everyone. I came here for honest answers and that's what I got. I just feel like I screwed my dog up by trying to PREVENT my dog from getting screwed up. Not the best feeling right now.
> 
> I always have him leashed in public due to my own concerns and it's state law. As a puppy, I would take him to an outdoor shopping area while my wife was jumping from store to store and let strangers come up and pet him and so that he could smell new smells and hear new sounds. He loved it, but should I not take him there anymore?
> 
> ...


Take a step back...we all make mistakes. This one is easily fixed. Personally...I would not take him to public places where I can't control the situation. Family gathering...you can control because you can ask people to not do A and do B, and they will probably respect your wishes since they are family. Dog park...I would avoid. People bring food and treats in there all the time. The last thing you need is Drago getting aggressive/possessive over a treat and ripping into another dog or human. Always remember...you have a GSD, it comes with its prejudices, and you don't want any type of aggression coming out of him in public.

He has issues with people and food. So an outdoor shopping area could have food, and a kid could run up with something good in their hand and try to pet your dog. All the sudden, Drago wants the food, Drago bites the kid petting him. That's an issue.

Keep going to obedience classes. Show him that you're the leader. One suggestion (if you have time) is to feed him his food while training. So if you can, give him all 2 cups of kibble through training. Heeling, sitting, downing, recalls. Don't be shy, give like 10-15 per exercise so that it doesn't take forever, or do just half his food and then give him the rest in a bowl after he's done with that first half.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Drunlu said:


> Also, if I never would have petted him while he was eating, I never would have found this problem. Like I said, I can take his bowl without issue. So for those of you that have never pet your dog while eating, would he/she growl at you if you did and if so would that be a problem?
> 
> I guess it just bothers me because what if I never knew he growled while being petted during mealtime and that he didn't have food aggression due to me being able to take his bowl. Then he would be the perfect dog right or so I thought. Is my dog the same as yours? Will yours growl if petted while eating?
> 
> Do all of our dogs need a behaviorist like Drago does if they growl while eating?


The only problem I see is that he reacted like that over seeing people food as well. Not just HIS bowl, but other's food that he wasn't even being allowed to eat (the crawfish). So this means he could lash out like this over any type of food that is out in front of him, in any situation. If it was just HIS bowl, its not a hard thing to fix...just leave him alone while eating and you've solved the problem. In your case...he reacts like this over any type of food and that is much harder to control (there is food EVERYWHERE in our world).


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

My own dog doesn't growl if I pet him when eating- he's not a resource guarding dog though- I've seen the cats take food from him. But I am also inclined to leave him be when he eats- the same way I like to be left alone when I'm eating. Resource guarders don't do well with being constantly tested when eating. It ups their anxiety and proves to them that they have something to guard. I think, honestly, at 7 months this can be turned around with careful training and a better understanding of your dog, but until then I'd be very careful with your nieces, who may -quite innocently-not read or understand the signals your dog is giving. You can still do loads of other socialisation exercises with him, building constantly his confidence and trust in you. Best of luck, you can get through this.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

martemchik said:


> The only problem I see is that he reacted like that over seeing people food as well. Not just HIS bowl, but other's food that he wasn't even being allowed to eat (the crawfish). So this means he could lash out like this over any type of food that is out in front of him, in any situation. If it was just HIS bowl, its not a hard thing to fix...just leave him alone while eating and you've solved the problem. In your case...he reacts like this over any type of food and that is much harder to control (there is food EVERYWHERE in our world).


I think I might not have explained myself very well. This may not make a difference though. No one was eating the crawfish yet. I opened the sack to dump them in an ice chest to rinse off and some fell out onto the ground still alive, crawling around and peaking Drago's curiosity. I don't think he thought, "This moving creature that I have never seen before will soon be rinsed off, boiled, and then eaten by humans." Did he really consider the crawfish as food to be guarded at that point?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Drunlu said:


> I think I might not have explained myself very well. This may not make a difference though. No one was eating the crawfish yet. I opened the sack to dump them in an ice chest to rinse off and some fell out onto the ground still alive, crawling around and peaking Drago's curiosity. I don't think he thought, "This moving creature that I have never seen before will soon be rinsed off, boiled, and then eaten by humans." Did he really consider the crawfish as food to be guarded at that point?


Yes, yes he did. Food was around. He could smell that this creature was going to be eaten. It's also a small, bright colored thing, that is prey to him, so of course he figured he'd eat it.

It doesn't matter if the food is on a fork, on the plate, or on the cutting board. Your dog realizes that you will be eating that. He understands very clearly that he could possibly get a taste of it. Drago was curious because he wanted to eat something new. To put it simply...dogs ask two questions about things, "can I eat it?" "can I play with it" Usually both involve putting something in their mouth and chewing. If it breaks into small enough pieces, they swallow, if it doesn't, they keep chewing.

Some posts...you really tend to humanize your dog, while others you make him into something dumber than a rock. Trust me, your dog knows. They learn very quickly what human activities mean. My dog knows that when the chef's knife and a cutting board come out...chopping of food will be done. My dog knows that when I step into the kitchen, there might be something in it for him.

I get that it doesn't have anything to do with food going into your mouth...it has to do with food being AROUND your dog and your dog getting touched. That is why you shouldn't take him where you can't control if food is going to be around your dog. A training class is perfect since there is no food around, and it is very structured and controlled. An outdoor shopping mall...is going to have food and you can't keep telling people, "get away from my dog because you have food" or "I have to get through here and my dog doesn't like it when people have food around him." So you can't control that type of situation...and until your dog is comfortable, and over this whole resource guarding thing, he shouldn't go there. A family picnic/crawfish boil, you could get your dog away from where the food is and more than likely your family will understand. You can tell them you're training him and working on his issue...people at an outdoor shopping place probably won't really understand why you're bringing a dangerous dog around them to "work on his issues" while putting them in danger.


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## Dante's mom (Nov 25, 2012)

I would just feed him in peace. At the get together who knows what the trigger truly was. I agree with continued training. When your nieces come over have them one at a time with just you and your dog do some training. It can be a great tool at helping build confidence all the way around. Remember to keep it structured and positive.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is not normal that a young dog, older puppy that has had positive encounters with a particular child would growl and then nip that child for petting him. 

I think I would write the incident down exactly as you remember it, and ask your wife to do the same. Compare the two view points. Consult a behaviorist, and use the written account. With a little time we tend to make things more or less than they really are. 

This dog is probably a good dog for a neuter surgery. You aren't and shouldn't breed him, and the lack of hormones may make some thing a little easier. 

I would definitely continue with obedience classes. But if that is where you are getting the alpha-talk you might want to consider a different class. Finish up with what you pay for, but don't try to manhandle your dog to get him in position or to get him to do what you want. 

The alpha-exersizes you are talking about sound a lot like NILIF stuff. It sounds like non-physical or non-confrontational ways to asert your leadership, and I don't see any problems with continuing those. Cesar is a natural leader and dogs respond to that, even if the guys approach to dogs, etc, is in my opinion not very helpful to a lot of people and not necessary to most dogs, and possibly dangerous to some. If the leadership quality is not a gift, you kind of have to work on it, and some of those techniques can help. I think what really helps is experience with a less than perfect dog, taking the time to understand and manage the dog, and a year or two later it is just what you do without even thinking about it. But you have to start somewhere. 

You believe you are not in charge of meal times. You are. You are the one with can opener or dog food container. I am not sure what more you need. Once you give the dog the food, it is then his. You do not need to be in charge of how he chews and how he swallows. And petting him while he is eating is just something this dog does not like. That is something you learned about this dog. 

Let's look at it this way, you want the dog to come when you say come and sit when you say sit. He wants you to leave him alone when he is eating. I think that's not a lot to ask. Maybe your dog is one that is likely to bloat. A lot of stress around meals is not supposed to be a good thing. Maybe learning now that you should leave him be when he is eating is a good thing in the over all scope of things. 

Being crated for 30 minutes with his food twice a day is not going to kill him. In fact, it is probably a good thing all in all. 

Some dogs do not like to be bothered when they are sleeping either, and your is a candidate for that as well. Or, yours has a bite threshold that is lower than some, and being startled out of a sleep can cause him to react poorly. So you have to manage that too. 

Some dogs really need a place that they can go where they will not be bothered. My mom had a GSD growing up, that liked babies and girls, but once boys got into long pants he hated them. That dog would let the little ones do anything though, and when he had enough he would go behind the couch and the kids were taught not to follow. 

I think that because your dog is willing to correct children, (and parents really don't like their children corrected by dogs), I think you need to manage any situation with a child in it. And that means taking the dog but stepping up and putting the dog in a safe place preferably before the dog lets you know he is uncomfortable.

Socialization is important. Good socialization. But good socialization turns into bad socialization if the dog becomes overwhelmed. We can easily manage the environment by learning our dog's body language. Was the dog licking his lips, did the dog yawn? Usually there are precursers to the growl even. 

We learn these by spending quality time with the dog, usually training and playing with him. 

Some dog are not safe around children. Those dogs need to be managed or put down. You cannot subject a child multiple times, or multiple children to a dog that will bite. I don't think your dog is at this level yet, but it is actually a possibility, and why I think your best bet is to find a good behaviorist and discuss this incident as clearly and honestly as possible, allow them to evaluate the dog, and be open to a plan of action for your dog.


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## yote54 (Nov 22, 2011)

"but once boys got into long pants he hated them". My GSD was the same way, I didn't pick up on it at first but it must be the way adolescent boys act, move, etc. One time a teen age boy kneeled down and got right in his face while my back was turned. Before I could stop him, my dog put his paws on his shoulders, pushed him down on his back (gently) and barked at him sharply. The mom frowned at me for not getting my dog back in time, then turned to her son and said loudly 'HE KNOWS BETTER, we have dogs'. I have had to back up on socialization several times with him because I was inadvertantly pushing his threshold too quickly. Dogs are individuals, each learn at their own pace. They also go through fear stages and the behaviorist can talk to you about that. About food, I was always taught with any animal, horses, dogs let them eat in peace. How would you feel if someone was poking at you etc. while you were eating? But it is good to know if your dog is resource guarding. The same dog who barked at the boy will leave with his ears back when the cat pokes her nose in his bowl. She is older and let him know quickly who is in charge. My other female GSD is a rescue and it took awhile for her to realize she had her own food/bones etc. I have to watch the bone situation, but worth it because they are both good dogs. Lots of good suggestions from people who care and with lots more experience. Good luck!


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Ok thank you everyone. Still waiting to hear back from the behaviorist. Until then, this is my plan based on what I've gathered so far. Correct as needed please.

1) Don't allow him around large groups of strangers.
2) Obviously keep leashed when in public.
3) Feed him his meals without taking anything away.
4) Feed meals by hand and maybe with some training thrown in (sit/down/stay/etc).
5) Don't pet him while he's eating even though I know there is a problem there, but someone else might not and learn the hard way.
6) Consult behaviorist
7) Continue with daily obedience and exercise.

Please add anything else I forgot.

Will this problem haunt me/him for the rest of his life? Will I always not be able to fully trust him around people, strangers or not? And yes, before I get attacked for that last question, I do know that NO dog, no matter how good or bad, can be left unsupervised without children. Thanks again everyone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

4. I would let him eat his food and not attach any training to his regular meal itself. 

5. I would manage the situation so that no one would be able to pet him while he is eating. That's on you. 

You own a German Shepherd Dog, and if your dog bites someone again, you are liable to be sued and your dog can even be put down. Sometimes there is a 1-bite forgiveness, where the dog then has a bite-history, though you are still liable for damages, pain and suffering, and all that. But if the bite is bad enough, or if the victim is loud enough, you can LOSE your dog. I cannot imagine being forced to have a dog euthanized. I do not ever want to be in that position. Also, this happened to a child. Your dog may bite someone's kid. Your chances of getting sued are way high if you let people mess with your dog while he is eating, or near food. 

I think that screwing around with this dog while it is eating, at least right now, is likely to add more stress than is actually necessary. 

And 8, I would neuter the dog. He should not be bred. Removing the testatserone might help.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Drunlu said:


> Really?? Are you saying food aggression has nothing to do with a dog thinking he is more dominant than the human? Dominance theory is totally counterproductive with guarding? Please explain...


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Guarding often comes from a place of fear or insecurity, not a place of confidence and trust. Fearful, insecure dogs are not dominant, dominant dogs are not fearful or insecure. And the problem with pushing an insecure dog is that they become even more insecure, more likely to feel threatened, which can increase guardling behavior.



> According to 2 different trainers that we go to, alpha exercises are small things done throughout the day to maintain the alpha role, *which I guess you aren't worried about.* Making a dog give way to you, not the other way around. Humans walk through doorway first. Simple obedience sessions are forms of alpha exercises. Anything that tells your dog you are in control. As of right now, I don't feel in control of mealtime.


No need for snarkiness - there are a lot of terms that get bandied about that mean different things to different people. I was just wanting to know what YOU meant when you used that term. "Alpha exercises" could mean anything from forcibly pinning a dog to the ground until they submit, to simply requiring them to do something for the owner before they get something they want, as in NILIF, which is totally hands off. Obviously, it's more helpful to the discussion if everyone participating is on the same page with regards to the terminology.

And for the record, I practice NILIF with all my dogs from the time they come home as puppies. I teach them impulse control, I do trading games to build trust, I claim space with my body language, I train default behaviors, and I teach them that it's in their best interest to make good choices and defer to me. I don't think of that as alpha exercises though, to me it's just good common sense and being proactive to prevent problems before they occur, as much as I'm able.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sunflowers said:


> Train him. Take him wherever you want to, just avoid having him loose and in crowded places, watch him and gauge his reactions. Keep him leashed, and under your control.


Exactly. We don't have company over often so it's a very exciting event for my dogs. They would jump all over our guests if we didn't keep them on leash until they calmed down, so we choose to leash them as people arrive. Once they're calm, the leashes come off. I could just put them away when anyone came over, but I'd prefer not to, and since it's really only the first few minutes that they're annoying and obnoxious it's a very manageable situation, and by using management techniques everyone is happy. The dogs get to meet people, the people get to not be knocked over by 140 pounds of happy dog!

And a note about socialization, it's only productive if your dog is happy and having fun. If he's stressed or anxious it's not a positive experience, and you're better off not exposing him to it. Don't overwhelm him - as someone already mentioned, a dog that's over threshold isn't learning, so he's not getting anything good from the experience anyway.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Drunlu said:


> Also, if I never would have petted him while he was eating, I never would have found this problem. Like I said, I can take his bowl without issue. So for those of you that have never pet your dog while eating, would he/she growl at you if you did and if so would that be a problem?


I don't routinely mess with my dogs while they're eating, but once in awhile I'll give them a pat on the side as I walk by. They're both perfectly fine with that, and they won't stiffen up or growl even if they've got something of much higher value than plain old kibble, like a bully stick. BUT, I've also done tons of work with them from a young age to build trust, so they have no reason to think I'd just suddenly yank their food away without warning and are comfortable with us around while they eat. I don't go out of my way TO touch them while they eat, but I also don't go out of my way NOT to. 

Did you read the thread that Sunflowers linked to in an earlier post? There was a great video about resource guarding, and I posted about what I do to prevent it from starting in the first place.



Drunlu said:


> Did he really consider the crawfish as food to be guarded at that point?


:rofl: Sorry, not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you! My dogs have never seen a live crawfish, but I can guarantee you they'd know exactly what it was: FOOD!!!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You have to get it out of your head that it is obligatory for training to handle his food when he has it. 

Personally, I think this is disrespectful to the dog. We control every aspect of their lives...at least we should let them eat in peace and undisturbed!

I think Selzer's suggestion to feed him in his crate is a good one. That way he knows he is safe to eat it without being bothered.

PS-- I know I suggested hand feeding, but given the subsequent replies from you, and learning a little more about him, I think it would be better for your dog to just have his food, for now.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> PS-- I know I suggested hand feeding, but given the subsequent replies from you, and learning a little more about him, I think it would be better for your dog to just have his food, for now.


What made you change your mind? Only reason I ask is because I was always able to calmy hand feed him if I wanted to before the growling even started and ever since the incident, that's all I have done except for one meal which was given in his crate.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if it were my dog he wouldn't be going anywhere untill i could
trust him. if i found out i couldn't trust him i would travel
another path. the onus is on you to take care of your dog.
train and socialize and find a professional to help. good luck.



Drunlu said:


> Party is the wrong word. It wasn't a college party with loud music and drunks. There were maybe 8 family members outside enjoying the afternoon. Drago has been in that backyard multiple times and has met everyone except the neighbor's kid(who wasn't present for the warning bite) multiple times. The only new experience he had was a crawfish. I thought socializing him to one wouldn't be a bad idea. If I would have known Hailey was going to pet him I would have prevented that.
> 
> >>>> Are you saying I shouldn't be able to bring my dog to family gatherings?<<<< [/QUOTE]


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## Jenne (Mar 13, 2013)

How much has he been socialized around kids? If he hasn't been socialized with screaming, excited kids who run up and touch him, then you don't know what his reaction will be. Definitely don't have him in this sort of situation. 
Cassidy's Mom said this:
"And a note about socialization, it's only productive if your dog is happy and having fun. If he's stressed or anxious it's not a positive experience, and you're better off not exposing him to it. Don't overwhelm him - as someone already mentioned, a dog that's over threshold isn't learning, so he's not getting anything good from the experience anyway."

Also, some of those alpha or Cesar ways may be adding to insecurity and unstable behavior.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP, I totally sympathize with you. Until I started with a training club and my TD told me about the proper way to curb food guarding I thought just like you. That if any dog showed food problems you should randomly take your dog's food, stick hands in it, basically bug the crud out of him while he's eating to, "get him used to it." Now I look back and think, "duh, how stupid, it's CREATING the problem!" 

Unfortunately your boy is a bit older, and will need a little more time, focus, and trust building, before you can trust him again (assuming the genetics are there). He has shown you that he is insecure enough about food needing guarding that he will bite someone that he not only KNOWS, but a child at that....

I think you're focusing WAY too much on the food stuff, instead of building a trusting relationship with the dog and helping him to be independent and confident. I would forget about the food, feed him alone in a crate or closed off area, and focus on building his confidence in YOU. No more dog parks, no more big get togethers, my dog was not exposed to any of those things (and still isn't in some regards) until I could trust him and I felt he could trust me. Little steps, building confidence, and trust. 

For my GSD, I built confidence by never putting him in a situation he could fail, if we encountered a strange dog/strange person, I was always between him and that person. This requires a little bit of obedience and control. For example, when my GSD was 5 or 6 months we encountered a HUGE fluffy dog. My dog looked at him and barked once. I put my dog in a "sit, stay" on my right(he doesn't get to say 'hi' to anything he barks at), and continued doing what I was doing while the other dog was on my left. My dog was concentrating on the "sit/stay" and while of course he knew the other dog was there, I had signaled to him that I was in control. After a minute I told my boy to, "break" we walked the other way, and eventually that same dog came around, my boy was acting curious, not scared, I asked the other owner if his dog was up for a "meet and greet" he said, "yes." My boy and her dog sniffed, tails wagged, and then we left. Just that little scenario was a teeny tiny lesson to my boy that I was in control, he could be confident in me, didn't have to worry about "stepping up" and it ended positively for him. BUT, if I wasn't confident in my dog's "sit/stay" I would never have stayed in that situation, because I knew I couldn't keep him in, what I consider, a controlled state. One reason why we never go to off-leash dog parks either.

Anywho, good luck with your boy! I have learned that if you focus on trust, confidence, and control, a lot of the problems (if they aren't genetic based or from an extreme trauma) tend to right themselves for the most part .


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Jenne said:


> How much has he been socialized around kids? If he hasn't been socialized with screaming, excited kids who run up and touch him, then you don't know what his reaction will be. Definitely don't have him in this sort of situation.
> Cassidy's Mom said this:
> "And a note about socialization, it's only productive if your dog is happy and having fun. If he's stressed or anxious it's not a positive experience, and you're better off not exposing him to it. Don't overwhelm him - as someone already mentioned, a dog that's over threshold isn't learning, so he's not getting anything good from the experience anyway."


He has been around my nieces since he was a puppy except for the youngest who would have probably pulled his ears, hair, etc. He has been around the well behaved ones for awhile. They used to "help" me train him. He was never stressed back then. If I saw him getting tired like all puppies do, I would put him in his crate which was away from prodding fingers poking through.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> I think you're focusing WAY too much on the food stuff, instead of building a trusting relationship with the dog and helping him to be independent and confident. I would forget about the food, feed him alone in a crate or closed off area, and focus on building his confidence in YOU. No more dog parks, no more big get togethers, my dog was not exposed to any of those things (and still isn't in some regards) until I could trust him and I felt he could trust me. Little steps, building confidence, and trust.
> 
> For my GSD, I built confidence by never putting him in a situation he could fail, if we encountered a strange dog/strange person, I was always between him and that person. This requires a little bit of obedience and control. For example, when my GSD was 5 or 6 months we encountered a HUGE fluffy dog. My dog looked at him and barked once. I put my dog in a "sit, stay" on my right(he doesn't get to say 'hi' to anything he barks at), and continued doing what I was doing while the other dog was on my left. My dog was concentrating on the "sit/stay" and while of course he knew the other dog was there, I had signaled to him that I was in control. After a minute I told my boy to, "break" we walked the other way, and eventually that same dog came around, my boy was acting curious, not scared, I asked the other owner if his dog was up for a "meet and greet" he said, "yes." My boy and her dog sniffed, tails wagged, and then we left. Just that little scenario was a teeny tiny lesson to my boy that I was in control, he could be confident in me, didn't have to worry about "stepping up" and it ended positively for him. BUT, if I wasn't confident in my dog's "sit/stay" I would never have stayed in that situation, because I knew I couldn't keep him in, what I consider, a controlled state. One reason why we never go to off-leash dog parks either.
> 
> Anywho, good luck with your boy! I have learned that if you focus on trust, confidence, and control, a lot of the problems (if they aren't genetic based or from an extreme trauma) tend to right themselves for the most part .


Thanks for your positive words Dani. I thought that the obedience classes would help us develop trust, but I guess I just need a longer track record of being his leader. 

Also, there are a few trainers here in Louisiana that hold a large field socialization together every Saturday morning. It is very structured meaning all dogs come in on a leash until they are all in, then all the owners release their dogs at the same time. No toys, treats, food, even sticks are allowed in the park. All humans must walk in a large circle around the perimeter of the park to prevent any dogs becoming protective/territorial of the owners area were they to be sitting. Obviously, the purpose is to let dogs be dogs and act like dogs all while meeting new people as well. Drago has been going as a puppy and loves it. The first time any new puppy/dog goes or if one is acting nervous/overwhelmed, the trainers ask them to go into the small dog park on leash and observe the main park until they get comfortable. Multiple trainers are in the park to prevent any "out of bounds" dominance or gang-ups. 

Is it still ok for me to take Drago there? Like I said, he loves it and there is no food, toys, or anything for dogs to guard or become possesive over. The trainers will run over and even pick up small sticks that could be problem starters. 

Thanks again for your help.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Drunlu said:


> Thanks for your positive words Dani. I thought that the obedience classes would help us develop trust, but I guess I just need a longer track record of being his leader.


Yes. From the moment you bring your pup home to the moment he closes his eyes for the last time, he needs to feel that you are his leader 100% of the time and he can trust you no matter what. My dog is four, just about to be five and we still work on building and keeping trust every single day. Being the leader also doesn't stop after Basic OB. You are the leader in his life for his entire life and you have to show him that every day.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Drunlu said:


> Is it still ok for me to take Drago there? Like I said, he loves it and there is no food, toys, or anything for dogs to guard or become possesive over. The trainers will run over and even pick up small sticks that could be problem starters.
> 
> Thanks again for your help.


Honestly, I would stop this. It sounds like it's better than most dog parks, but it's still a dog park. Your dog is off leash, you have no control over him, and you know he has some insecurity issues. Yeah, it's just with food, for now. Go into the history in the aggression problem threads on here. SO many of them start with, "he NEVER has displayed any aggression, he's NEVER bite someone." Your boy just showed you he absolutely has the potential to bite someone. And this will absolutely get worse with maturity if given the wrong environment. 

Trust me, I get it. It was really hard for me to see how destructive dog parks are. I live in freaking Oregon, there's practically a dog park on every block. And it's fun to watch your dog run around with other dogs. But, he doesn't NEED that. He NEEDS you, he needs black and white rules and messages from you. At the VERY least I would keep him away from off-leash dog parks until he has fully matured and has proven himself as a neutral dog to you. Even then I personally would stay away. But that's just me. Where are you located? Could you join a SchH club? Or a different training club that offers a LOT of structure? I don't know very many legitimate trainers that would be crazy about the scenario you described.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Where are you located? Could you join a SchH club? Or a different training club that offers a LOT of structure? I don't know very many legitimate trainers that would be crazy about the scenario you described.


Louisiana. I've looked for Schutzhund clubs around me, but all are so far away. There are a few working kennels around that do a little tracking/scent work. Few guys that train dogs for the police depts. I'll keep looking.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Just heard back from one behaviorist. He recommends the shaker can method and I just want to get everyone's take on this because I'm not so sure about it.

We used a shaker can for puppy problems like chewing/jumping on furniture, but is it really the best way to deal with aggression? He also recommends to eat before the dog eats and spit in the food before I give it to him. Surprised, I asked him why and he said, "So he smells your saliva already on the food and thinks that you have eaten already and are done with the food so others can eat it."

What do you all think about this? I have call into another behaviorist, just waiting to hear back.

Here is his resume. 

Master Trainer in Obedience, Tracking, Hunting, Search & Rescue, and Detector Dogs since 1980. 
Court Certified Expert in the field of Canine Training & Tracking through the Criminal District Courts of New Orleans, Louisiana, December 10, 1998, by Judge Julian Parker. 
UKC Conformation & Jr. Showmanship Judge. 
AKC Canine Good Citizen Evaluator. 
Co-author of bill signed into the Louisiana legislature presenting CGC as a dog defensive law. 
Member of The Association of Pet Dog Trainers APDT 
Licensed by the Drug Enforcement Agency as a Researcher in the Field of Canine Training - 1992. 
Studies and Training in Dog Psychology, Animal Behavior, Breeding & Genetics, and Canine Nutrition and Health Care 
Trained and experienced in handling Dangerous, Vicious, and Nuisance Animals since 1994, with a commendation from St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office. 
Developer and Presenter of the Lost and Safe Program. 
Founding member and trainer of Louisiana Search and Rescue Dogs, Inc. 1989 - 1996. 
Member of the National Association of Search and Rescue 1989 - 2000 
Retired Lieutenant with St. Tammany Parish Sheriff's Office, Search and Rescue Division. 
Owner, Handler, and Trainer of Ladyhawke, the First registered Louisiana Catahoula certified in Search and Rescue and Narcotic Detection to be commissioned by Law Enforcement, and receive the Service Champion Award for outstanding work in Community Service. Presented by the National Association of Louisiana Catahoulas.(N.A.L.C.) 
Recipient of the Excellence in Training award presented by Sigma Chemical Corporation. 
Author of The Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog. A book on the history, breeding, and care of Louisiana Catahoulas.(Out Of Print) 
Author of The Abney Method to Owning a Dog. A book on care and maintenance, behaviors, first aid, choosing and training a dog. 
Author of Canine Tracking Guide. A book on choosing and training a dog for human, animal, competition and blood tracking. Includes care and maintenance, and first aid. 
Author of The Complete Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog. A book on the updated history, breeding, and care of Louisiana Catahoulas. 
Certified breeder of registered Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dogs since 1985. (N.A.L.C.) 
Past President of the American Catahoula Association. 
Vice President of the Great Southern Kennel Club. A United Kennel Club (UKC) Organization.2003-2007 
President of the Great Southern Kennel Club. A United Kennel Club (UKC) Organization.2007-2008 
President of the Catahoula Owners, Breeders, and Research Association (COBRA).2004-Present


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Drunlu said:


> He also recommends to eat before the dog eats and spit in the food before I give it to him. Surprised, I asked him why and he said, "So he smells your saliva already on the food and thinks that you have eaten already and are done with the food so others can eat it."
> 
> What do you all think about this?


I think it's silly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would keep the appointment with the other dog behaviorist.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Drunlu said:


> Just heard back from one behaviorist. He recommends the shaker can method and I just want to get everyone's take on this because I'm not so sure about it.
> 
> We used a shaker can for puppy problems like chewing/jumping on furniture, but is it really the best way to deal with aggression? He also recommends to eat before the dog eats and spit in the food before I give it to him. Surprised, I asked him why and he said, "So he smells your saliva already on the food and thinks that you have eaten already and are done with the food so others can eat it."
> 
> ...


Ok, I gotta jump in on this one.

Shake a can for food aggression, spit in food? Cross this one off the list. 

The parts I read, it sounds like there is more then just food aggression going on with this dog. Locate a behaviorist that insists on seeing the dog and you before making recommendations for training. He/She will want to see the dog in action with food, general behavior, how you and the dog relate to each other. You may be surprised at what a qualified behaviorist will see and pick up on that you see every day but missed. Ask questions and more questions. Check with past and current clients that had to deal with the same type of problem. Decide if you are comfortable with them, they will be training you.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Ok everyone, little update here.

I've contacted 2 behaviorists over the phone and they both said the same thing. Super dominant yet insecure dog. One guy specializes in Schutzhund and works with European working lines like the one Drago is from. Both of them said my wife and I need to be a lot more physically assertive. The second guy, Sch trainer, said he has never heard of such a dominant dog that challenges it's owner day in and day out with such determination and aggression. I told him how I trained Drago and try to exert my dominance over him. He said all of that sounds good. He then said, "Normally I teach and train from the positive reinforcement school of thought, but this dog HAS to be knocked down the totem pole." He said I need to "pop the living **** out of him with the prong collar if he growls or starts to show any signs of aggression. "Man, I'm not trying to tell you to beat your dog or anything, but some of my super dominant dogs just don't vibe with the PR approach when it comes to aggression. A food treat isn't going to fix this." 

I didn't really like what both of those guys said, mainly because I don't want to treat his aggression with my own and I don't see how that could strengthen our bond/trust. So, I called another local behaviorist and she said she wanted to come see us in action. So she did and said it's never ok for a dog to growl or snap at anyone. Long story short, her advice was almost the exact same as the other guys. We went through a whole feeding session with the prong collar and popped it if he growled. He eventually just wanted to stop eating after we had a long staring contest, so I'm thinking he is starting to associate mealtime with punishment. Then we went to the crate problem. I put him in his crate and she asked when does he growl in there and without saying one word I just walked over and knelt down by the crate and he growled/snapped immediately. She was shocked and was kind of quiet while she thought. She said she has seen much worse dogs in terms of obedience, but not as far as behavior/aggression. Her solution was to spray him with a water spray bottle at the first sign of aggression in the crate. It did seem to work actually because it would snap him out of it it seemed like. I just don't think it is fixing the issue, maybe just hiding it or teaching him to maybe skip growling and just go straight to a bite.

I'm so stressed about all of this because I spoke with 3 professionals that all said the same thing.....physical corrections (my own aggression in my mind). 

Needless to stay the problem still exists so I wanted to get some advice on whether I should implement the physical correction like they say and "put him in his place/knock him down a level."

Please help! I never thought I would be "that guy" that has to surrender a dog because I can't control him, but with nieces and maybe our own kids in the future, I can't have a dog around them that I can't trust...even just a little bit.

Thanks for the help guys.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

I have NEVER heard of a (real) behaviorist that promoted corrections or used the word 'dominant'! That is ASKING for a bite! How dare these people come to these conclusions from one visit, ridiculous. 
What area do you live in ? I'll help find you someone.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

That's what I was thinking. New Orleans/Baton Rouge area.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

No expert here, but a couple observations and comments.

I 'may" agree with the first trainer. The second trainer, well, I'm not liking that she set your dog up with HIS MEAL, and had you pop the crap out of him if he growled while eating it. 

From the way it sounds, this dog's bad behavior exhibits itself when food is involved.

You said he's fine at the socialization/park thing that you'd been taking him to? Won't make me popular, but if he's fine there, I'd keep going. 

I would be doing things with him that do NOT involve food of any kind. FUN things, take a hike, take him swimming..

At home, I would feed him his meals IN PEACE, no touching, no nothing, put his bowl down, walk away. 

As for the crate thing, I don't think this is uncommon with alot of dogs, that crate is viewed as a safe haven, some dogs ARE crate possessive/aggressive because they can't get away from whomever/whatever is coming at them..I am not saying this is what I would want in a dog that did this to "me", but it's not unheard of. I would NOT be squirting him with ANYTHING in his crate..

The things 'she' advocated are in my opinion, asking for more trouble, aggressive=aggressive .

I am all for correcting a hard dog with a physical correction IF the behavior warranted.


While no one wants a food aggressive dog, it may be something you will have to manage and be on top of vs 'curing' it. 

Personally I would ask the first trainer to come and evaluate this dog in person not via the phone and go from there.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

IMHO, keep looking and follow your gut. If it doesnt feel right, it probably isnt.

I too am of the thought that you cant treat aggression with aggression. If you are looking for a conflict free, respectful relationship with your dog then it has to go both ways and the things those trainers suggested are not respectful. This doesnt mean being a doormat or throwing treats at the dog. 

There is much more to positive training than treats, I prefer to use the dog's natural motivators and functional rewards and rarely use food unless it is the dogs meal.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Drunlu said:


> I've contacted 2 behaviorists over the phone and they both said the same thing. *Super dominant yet insecure dog*.


:thinking: This just doesn't make sense to me at all. Truly dominant dogs are confident, not insecure. But I would agree that the "insecure" is accurate, because that tends to drive resource guarding behavior. I just question the "dominant" part.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I wonder what all three trainers/behaviorist are seeing to make pretty much the same recommendation? Anyway, the problem with their advice is that you need to be supervised in executing this type of modification. I am in the process right now in dealing with a strong Cane Corso that shows the same tendencies. The frustrating part is if the guy would execute what I tell him, the dog ships right up. He is 14 months and slowly taking over. When I take the leash he ships right up. When the owner takes the leash I tell him to pop him once and he insists on pulling him which just creates oppositional reflex in the dog. We have been working for 10 weeks and dog no longer tries to blow me off or do things on his terms, but once the owner gets the leash, he knows that the owner is not going to do the things that I have demonstrated works with this dog. Even his wife says why don't you do what Cliff says, see how he minds Cliff. 
My point is ....if they feel that those methods are what are needed then they must be there to help you enact them. The problem is depending on the method, as time goes on the behavior can become more entrenched. That's why some methods are very easy to implement with young pups when started early, but some methods when dealing with an older dog and the behavior is dangerous, then only the very skilled can balance the extensive time it takes to implement the method, with the possibility of a disaster happening from the behavior. 
Three different dog trainers/behaviorist probably see some things that we on the Internet don't....good luck.....I wouldn't rule out everyone that recommends something you might not understand or agree with....this fix will not be an easy fix and will certainly require the knowledge and execution of skilled help in addition to your implementaion. I could be way off, but that's how I see things.


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## khigh (Apr 30, 2013)

Drunlu said:


> Just heard back from one behaviorist. He recommends the shaker can method and I just want to get everyone's take on this because I'm not so sure about it.
> 
> We used a shaker can for puppy problems like chewing/jumping on furniture, but is it really the best way to deal with aggression? He also recommends to eat before the dog eats and spit in the food before I give it to him. Surprised, I asked him why and he said, "So he smells your saliva already on the food and thinks that you have eaten already and are done with the food so others can eat it."
> 
> What do you all think about this? I have call into another behaviorist, just waiting to hear back.


If you look at his website for the book he wrote, he tells people to do this when your puppy play bites:



> The method that I have found to work the fastest on young dogs and puppies is to apply an uppercut to the lower jaw, causing his teeth to clash together. This correction is performed to cause discomfort to the dog, and not an attempt at knocking him out. Simply correct him with enough force to cause his teeth to clash, and the behavior will usually cease after the second correction. The dog's response to the correction is normally an attempt to lick your hands. Do not overreact and strike him again. The licking is his indicator of acceptance of your leadership and correction. If he licks, praise him. If he mouths, correct him again. The correction must be meaningful and forceful enough to get his attention.


ABCANTRA - Abney Canine Training - Training Tips - Mouthing, Nipping, Biting
I would NOT trust this trainer with any dog.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Three different dog trainers/behaviorist probably see some things that we on the Internet don't....good luck.....I wouldn't rule out everyone that recommends something you might not understand or agree with....this fix will not be an easy fix and will certainly require the knowledge and execution of skilled help in addition to your implementaion. I could be way off, but that's how I see things.


I'd agree IF all three trainers had actually seen the dog; the first two are simply going off a phone call so they are reaching the same conclusion because they were fed the same information and did not take in any of their own by observing the dog. I know many self-proclaimed trainers that give cookie cutter advice that sounds much like the above for any and all behavior problem they are told about also without ever having met the dog in person. Not a lot of stock in that kind of advice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dominant and insecure sounds like they want to cover all the bases. 

I think they really need to see the dog to give advice, and I would really have a sour taste for a behaviorist who diagnoses and recommends stuff over the phone.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> dominant and insecure sounds like they want to cover all the bases.
> 
> I think they really need to see the dog to give advice, and I would really have a sour taste for a behaviorist who diagnoses and recommends stuff over the phone.


No worse than recommendations over the internet.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> No worse than recommendations over the internet.


I think it is. No one here is claiming to be a behaviorist and taking money for their advice. Also, if I give some really bad advice on here, four other people are going to come on and say, "no. don't do that." A miriad of suggestions can be given and the OP can weigh them all, and then do what he feels most comfortable with after listening to all the discussion. And many of us are saying -- get a behaviorist. 

A behaviorist gets a call about a dog that bites a kid, and is showing food aggression and crate aggression. They ought to consider themselves this person's only contact about this situation. They cannot count on a person checking their advice with other experts. Something that serious, I would want to evaluate the dog in person and not just go with what the owner says he saw. I am not suggesting that owners lie, but the fact is, not ever owner is tuned in enough to read all the signs.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

I understand everything that you all are saying. I came here knowing that I would get multiple opinions and views and thats exactly why I DID come here. I have a lot to learn about this situation and know that some of you have been in my shoes before. I just don't know what to do right now because I am not comfortable applying painful corrections to my dog and hope that there is another way. I just can't find any local dog behaviorists that seem legit. I went to http://iaabc.org/ and the closest one is 4 hours away. 

I don't know what to do or where to go. Unfortunately, all I can think about is getting rid of Drago and that kills me. I don't want to give up on him and will try ALMOST anything....I will not uppercut my dog. 

I just feel so confused, stressed, and helpless. ****, maybe Drago is sensing this from me...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

dogs will pick up on an owners, stress, insecurity , what they can get away with and what not.

How about Drago's breeder? Don't know where you got him from, but maybe they can offer some help.

I will say, IF you get rid of him, you will have a hard time finding someone who will be willing to take on a dog who has 'bit', no rescue will touch him, he would have to go with a gsd savvy person/trainer. 

I would continue to look for other behaviorists/trainers OR a gsd breeder in your area for recommendations and forget the phone consults, you need someone one on one.

Good luck/hope you can work it out..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good Luck!.....I would be interested in what a 'real behaviorist" recommends......you have to do something because the clock is ticking and life is not good in these stressful situations.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Have you considered "send-away" training with Joe at Acadiana K9? My understanding is he takes the dog for several weeks, and works with it at his facility. 

I've never trained with him and don't know him well, so I can't make a recommendation from personal experience. You would need to evaluate on your own whether you trust him and agree with his methods. For what it's worth, though, I've heard very good things about him locally from adopters with a dog who developed significant behavior issues, particularly where those adopters weren't experienced (and/or had issues with follow through on their own--I don't know you, so I can't say whether that's the case here, I'm just putting out there that I'm told he has been helpful in such circumstances).


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Your so afraid to give a "painful correction" all the while the dog is taking over the household. It may not be the only way to go, but you can't be afraid to correct your dog. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## HSV-SD (Apr 28, 2013)

OK for what it is worth. 

Drunlu step away from the phone and computer. You are on information, emotion and stress overload. You are not horrible, nor is Drago. 

I have always been told a dog's crate is its home/den. The dog should feel safe going in there and should not be used as punishment. If it were me I would put his crate in a quiet place and certainly not shoot water at him while he is in it. You need to remember that is his safe spot and maybe there is a reason he went in there to begin with. 

I would go to the link mentioned earlier in the discussion thread.

I liked the idea of feeding in the crate at set times, going back to the whole thought of a safe place.

Spend time with him like before, he will not understand what is going on nor the vibes you are giving off. 

I would wonder how much the behaviorists know about all the breeds. I think the information given here about breed specific issues might outweigh the behaviorists. Not to discredit them, but wondering their experience with GSD.

You need to detoxic from the information, emotions and stress before making any hasty decisions.


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## HSV-SD (Apr 28, 2013)

Here are some more thoughts.

Let the nieces come into the house when they come over with him in his crate. After they have been there awhile, bring Drago into the room on a leash where the girls are playing. I would not take the girls to him with him in his crate (makes for stressful situation) while he is in his "safe haven". While he is on leash let them feed him, pet him and talk to him, explain to the girls about dogs and Drago and his crate. Then put Drago back into his crate and close the door to where his crate is so he can hear the girls, but not in direct contact with them. 

I would plan on taking a crate whenever you take him anywhere for awhile and always on leash. My thought is the crate will give him a safe place he knows he can go to and not be messed with.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Is there no one near you who specializes in this type of dog.

I would try to find someone who deals with aggressive dogs. Dogs should not bite kids period.

I also understand that you are uncomfortable with some of the advice from trainers/behaviorists you have spoken with. However at some point you need to decide that consistency is more important than a perfect trainer.

There are so many opinions on dog training that you can over analyze to the point of driving yourself to distraction.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Drunlu said:


> I just can't find any local dog behaviorists that seem legit.


I understand that you are emotional right now. At some point though, I hope you'll do some self-reflection. I think the advice you've received about consistency is very apt.

I would urge you to please be thoughtful about what you post here, if it reflects on the reputation of the people you've consulted. Such posts also may reflect on you as a client.

From your earlier posts, I can identify at least one of the people you appear to have worked with locally, and it's a dear friend whom I've personally trained with, who is a German Shepherd person. The trainer whom I can identify from your post is not a behaviorist and doesn't hold himself out as one. He's a fine obedience trainer and a wonderful guy. He's all about developing close bonds between dogs and handlers. 

I really hope you didn't mean to include him in your derision of all local resources as not being "legit" (perhaps you didn't, since your post reference behaviorists specifically). Even if you believe his training approach (which is very kind and gentle, BTW) won't help your particular dog's issues with aggression, that doesn't mean he's not a "legit" trainer. I've worked with him--he is. Not every trainer or behaviorist is a good fit for every dog--that's natural--but it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't "legit." It sometimes just means their skill set is not a match for that particular dog's (or owner's) needs.

BTW, I'm often at the socialization field you mentioned. I'm not going to go into why this controlled environment is very different than "dog park" interaction, and why it can have a rehabilitative effect that is usually impossible at a dog park. Or how many psychologically damaged dogs I know who have been helped over time, with consistent commitment from their handlers, by interacting with the stable, well-trained, well-socialized "pack" (training alumni!!) that gets together for the field exercise. It's okay if you've decided it's not for you or for your dog (and not everyone wants to get up at dawn every Saturday...) I urge caution, though, in accepting opinions from strangers on the Internet about the field exercise who've never been there (and who are likely mentally analogizing it to their own dog park experiences, based only on your partial description). 

I would gently suggest that you reconsider posting blanket derisive comments about local resources here, if there's any possibility you might want the help of one of these local people in the future. Baton Rouge is, after all, a pretty small dog community, and an even smaller GSD community. 

Again, I know you are emotional and frustrated now, and sometimes things come across differently than you mean them or would say them in person. Good luck!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Magwart said:


> The trainer whom I can identify from your post is not a behaviorist and doesn't hold himself out as one. He's a fine obedience trainer and a wonderful guy.
> 
> I really hope you didn't mean to include him in your derision of all local resources as not being "legit" (*perhaps you didn't, since your post reference behaviorists specifically).* Even if you believe his training approach (which is very kind and gentle, BTW) won't help your particular dog's issues with aggression, that doesn't mean he's not a "legit" trainer. I've worked with him--he is. Not every trainer or behaviorist is a good fit for every dog--that's natural--but it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't "legit."
> 
> ...


 
I understand completely what you mean and did not mean to damage anyone's reputation. *From what I know, and I'm open to different views on this, there are trainers and then there are behaviorists.* The people I mentioned are trainers in my opinion just like you stated. The only reason I called them was 1) I heard excellent things about them from my co-workers as far as obedience/tracking/ScH/etc and 2) they are close. 

I knew they were *trainers* when I called, but I figured they know more about this than I do and wanted to know if they could help me in any way or send me to someone who could.

So everyone reading this, please understand that my "not being legit" comment would have normally gone like this if only I wasn't so mentally drained, " The local *trainers* that I contacted over the phone provided potential solutions that, at this current time, I'm not comfortable implementing with Drago until I have a *dedicated behaviorist* come in my home and analyze our situation."

That being said, I actually did ask them if tracking or ScH would be a good job/outlet for Drago and I to dive into given the fact that he has a crazy strong ball/prey drive. All of the *trainers* thought it would be beneficial and are willing to work with Drago.

So once again, I apologize to everyone if I lumped trainers and behaviorists into one category.


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## Drunlu (Oct 5, 2012)

Magwart said:


> Have you considered "send-away" training with Joe at Acadiana K9? My understanding is he takes the dog for several weeks, and works with it at his facility.


I have looked at their website but have not contacted them yet. I have also seen someone close by that has been to the graduate program in the School of Animal Sciences at Louisiana State University to earn his masters degree with an emphasis in animal behavior.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Hailey pet him, then he growled, then Hailey pet Drago again trying to calm him, and then he went for her wrist.


I practice methods of positive training and learn new about dog's behaviour virtually every day. This or other method could be good for one dog, and not so good for the other. Nevertheless, try to accept my point. 
"Petting" became a command to growl at you, given in your body language. You have taught him that. The stereotype that has been built by his seven months could be replaced by a new stereotype. 
First of all, look at the problem in colours of psychology. If he minds himself as a leader in your family, it must be something that threatens his domeneering Ceasarly position everu day, that's why he wants to prove to himself again and again, that he is not the one you can mess with. The inferiors definitely are not those who can dare: he told your niece to behave herself.
First of all, you should not only stop this "patting", but stop putting his dignity down in all possible situations. The dominant males should be trained as they are. Change time of "petting" him, pet him after, not at his dinner or before the meal, call him to yourself after he finished and "pet" him vigorously, make him growl like a bear. This way you behave as alpha's mate, grooming him and encouraging him to involve in afterdinner languid play. Start putting your fingers into his mouth: brush his teeth, push garlic cloves into his throat, do it gently and caressingly. Believe me, he won't bite you if you do it away from his bowl and his bed by choosing moments he has a good mood. He must get used to various types of "hand-teeth" interference, bodily contact is a clue for your possible success. Mouth-to mouth feeding, probably, is too late and won't do much, but you can also try putting a slice of apple or a carrot chip in your mouth and give it to him. This behaviour of yours will sound for him as "we are on good terms".
With time he will forget his past experience that he was constantly threatened by you, or, better say - challenged. You could call him off the bed instead of telling him "Move". He may not always like moving his bossy bottom, but, if you attend classes and he learns something, it should work in the future.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This may not be popular here, but if you build a secure kennel (ie. concrete base, 6' height, covered over if the yard isn't fenced, maybe an indoor outdoor connected to your garage, and put a nice cot in the garage-section if it is heated, dog house if it is not. 

And then you take start taking your dog to classes, schutzhund, tracking, obedience, agility, dock diving -- whatever floats your boat. And you are at class for an hour or so, 1 or more times a week, and you give that dog a solid training session on off days, and every day you take him for a walk, or bring him inside and let him hang out with you while you don't have visitors, your dog will mature. 

And as he matures, you will be making training the dog both in classes and out of classes a part of your life -- not saying you aren't already, but I mean training with a focus and a goal. You will trust your dog and your dog will trust you, and the likelihood of anything like this happening, even in six or 12 months from now are very slim. 

Usually dogs act out when they have not accepted a leader as someone who will protect them, etc. If the dog is looking to you when he has some kid coming over, and you are not concerned about the child, and he has a solid bond with you, dogs will accept the child without aggressing. If the dog thinks he needs to take care of everything himself, then he is going to make bad decisions. 

Some dogs are not good with kids. Yours might be one of them. With an active training regime, your dog can live safely kenneled, even if you have kids some day. I really don't think this will be the case, but it does beat the alternative. Rescues will not accept a dog with a bite history, and the dog will not make it out of a shelter. To give the dog up without disclosing would be the worst thing you can do for everyone involved.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I do not agree with the hard corrections during meal time. In my opinion, that would make the dog more fearful. When he sees food, he feels stress. Since the alpha thing hasn't work out for you, perhaps try positive training techniques? You never know till you try. 

I don't have a GSD, but I do have a fila. I went to a trainer whose had a reputable history. He was a judge and schtz expert for 30 yrs. I went to this trainer one week after I got him at 4 months, he told me and did yank the crap out of him every time he growled. This was due to my ignorance and the pup suffered. After that session, I was done. I did not like using that amount of force on a puppy and I did not believe in it. I used clicker and marker training, it has worked great and I still use it to this day. 

I also believe some dogs have a low tolerance level with kids period. I have two rescues and one of them is a belgian shepherd mix and they both will not tolerate kids petting them too much or mugging their faces. They will snap and I have seen it and also was the reason why they were in shelters in the first place. You should ask yourself, what if one of your nieces had food in their hands or food on their plates on a kid table?


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