# 5 m old Ollie's overbite--I need advice!! (canine into upper palate)



## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Hi All,

My 5 mo. old shepherd puppy has an overbite, and I don't know what to do. I noticed it a few weeks ago, but a few days ago I noticed that his canines are cutting into the roof of his mouth a bit. 

I talked to my vet and she said it's, "rare for the breed," which I think is incorrect--therefore I don't trust her judgement here at all. 

I have also read that the lower jaw grows slowest and so I'm not sure if it will correct itself over time. Any advice would be much appreciated!!! Thanks guys!!

Here's my attempt to post a pic: 









Attempt 2:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

This is NOT that uncommon in the breed and it's a HUGE problem if those canines grow permanently into the upper palate!

There is massage and also a surgery that can be done to guide the lower canines into position. But you have to get on it NOW when the teeth are still growing in and are easily able to change their path.

http://www.veterinarydentalcenter.com/pediatric.htm

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=PRINT&A=164


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

So I'm assuming a dental specialist is the person to see? I've been having trouble finding one in my area. 

I'm just so worried! He's my little man, and it looks like it hurts, even though he doesn't act like he's in pain :-(


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Your regular dentist should have a list of specialists to recommend.

This is NOT a big deal if you get to someone this coming week to get it adjusted.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well he's only 5 months old, still teething and the lower jaw always needs to catch up at this age it seems. If the teeth are only slightly affecting the roof of the mouth (like he can eat and drink and doesn't seem bothered) I would give it another month or so. My Pan's teeth looked like that while he was teething. He also retained one of his upper canines. I had that pulled at 6 months. By about 8 months, everything had lined back up again, and by 10 months the slight overbite that was leftover was gone. At 13 months I got a dental notation from an SV judge, the bite is fine. Their teeth go crazy while they are teething. Ironically my show line male's teeth never looked that bad, he had a slight overbite while teething, but unlike Pan's which looked like your picture or worse, Nikon's slight overbite never corrected.

No harm in seeing a specialist but I personally don't know that I'd alter anything at this age since the dog is still teething and the bite will change on its own. I would ask the breeder about the parents and the lines, if there is any history of bite problems.


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

If you're in Buffalo, you could see the dental specialist at the Ontario Veterinary College in Guelph Ontario. Its a bit of a drive, but I don't know many dental specialists.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When Cujo was six weeks old, the ER vet said, "Oh, he has an over bite, well, that's ok, you are not planning on showing him." 

I just called Cujo over to me (he is six), his teeth have a perfect scissors bite, no overbite whatsoever. 

I suggest calling your breeder and asking them about it, and see if they want for you to wait or to consult some type of dental specialist. If this will clear itself up, then you will put your pup through pain and cost yourself a deal of money. A dental specialist is unlikely to tell you to wait and see. They are there to make money. 

An over bite is MUCH better than an under bite. An overbite often corrects itself.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

get to a specialist if you want to correct this. If not, you may just have to pull the offending canine. Vet schools will have one - Cornell or Guelph - I have no clue which is closer.

Lee


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Guelph is actually closer--thanks I'll check that out


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I once had a GSD with an overbite like that--it never caused any problems, so we never had to mess with it.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Well he's only 5 months old, still teething and the lower jaw always needs to catch up at this age it seems. If the teeth are only slightly affecting the roof of the mouth (like he can eat and drink and doesn't seem bothered) I would give it another month or so. My Pan's teeth looked like that while he was teething. He also retained one of his upper canines. I had that pulled at 6 months. By about 8 months, everything had lined back up again, and by 10 months the slight overbite that was leftover was gone. At 13 months I got a dental notation from an SV judge, the bite is fine. Their teeth go crazy while they are teething. Ironically my show line male's teeth never looked that bad, he had a slight overbite while teething, but unlike Pan's which looked like your picture or worse, Nikon's slight overbite never corrected.
> 
> No harm in seeing a specialist but I personally don't know that I'd alter anything at this age since the dog is still teething and the bite will change on its own. I would ask the breeder about the parents and the lines, if there is any history of bite problems.


Yeah that's why it's so tricky! He's been on a tooth-losing spree for the last week or so (he's lost both upper canines, two molars, and a third is on it's way out now). The lower canines are only just coming in, so I'm worried it will get worse before it gets better. I'd really hate to take extreme action this early in the game, because I think things will still change. 

However, I don't want to wait, have him be in more pain, and then wish I'd done something. It's such a crap shoot :-/


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Makes you wonder what they did before they had doggy dental specialists.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> Makes you wonder what they did before they had doggy dental specialists.


... or behaviorists or trainers or kibble or breeders ...

What in THE HECK did they do for those 10s of thousands of years??


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> ... or behaviorists or trainers or kibble or breeders ...
> 
> What in THE HECK did they do for those 10s of thousands of years??


They died. Survival of the fittest, you know...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I would have the dog evaluated by a specialist, and then decide what you want to do. 

Not exactly the same thing, but this thread has some info in it: Ike is going to need braces ... ARGH! - GermanShepherdHome.net


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Guelph will probably cost twice as much as Cornell so that's something to consider. 

Looks like there's a veterinary dental specialist in Cheektowaga

David E Hansen
Small Animal Fellow
Town and Country Animal Clinic
3095 Genesee Street
Cheektowaga, NY 14225
1-716-896-2424

I found his information here: AVD Members


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## London's Mom (Aug 19, 2009)

When London was that age he had an over bite as well. His canines were cutting into his gums. My vet said this occassionally will occur when a pup is growing in his big teeth. He suggested I leave it alone, but keep an eye on it. I did and within a few months every in his mouth "fit" together perfectly.

Secondly, when I adopted Olina, she was already grown and had an overbite. It never bothered her. The vet told me that dogs are like people, some of them will have an overbite. Olina's did not affect her mouth or eating habits at all.

My advice would be to leave it alone for a few months but keep your eye on it. You don't want your pup to be in pain, but you also don't want to have someone start cutting up his gums for no reason.


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## ctsiegf (Apr 28, 2008)

I would recommend getting it checked out. I had to have my pup go in for surgery to correct a maloclusion at 6 months. It was caught early enough that there wasn't any problem fixing it at UW Madison's Vet teaching hospital. At 8 months you would never know anything was done. If I'd waited and let things set? Who knows...

For your pup, in my completely uneducated opinion, the overbite looks to be the real problem. I'd definitely have it looked at by a specialist so you can find out what your options are. You look like you've found your problem even before I did so you've got even more time on your side.

Good luck!

-Carter


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Since this CAN be so bad your pup can have holes poked into their upper palate by their lower canines. And I can't even see the lower canines kind of coming into the correct position for your pup... rather than waiting until the teeth are in and the damage is done, I'd go for that specialist.

You may just need a guide to for the lower teeth, to prevent


> Just as you would want to cure a painful skin condition or sore joint in your pet, consider relieving pain in your pet's mouth. When an oral problem is caused by poorly aligned teeth, orthodontic treatment may be needed.
> Orthodontics for pets is not frivolous and is seldom performed for cosmetic purposes. Orthodontic procedures are the tools used to improve dental function and reduce pain.
> Teeth that are crowded, rotated, or tilted at abnormal angles can result in:
> 
> ...




 
: Print this Veterinary Partner Article










Here's an example of the holes that can occur:



Orthodontics - Pet Dentist Tampa Bay Florida - Veterinary Dentist - Veterinarian Dental, Dr Michael Peak

More holes and issues:










Another device to move teeth WHEN THEY ARE STILL COMING IN, into the correct position:


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

I have an appointment tomorrow afternoon--I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for your responses guys!!


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Addie had an overbite at that age, and her canines looked like they were pushing on her gums. I was pretty concerned, but decided to wait a few months and re-evaluate. She is now 8 1/2 months old and has a PERFECT bite. Honestly, I doubt a canine dental specialist is ever going to tell you just to wait and see. They don't make any money that way.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

AddieGirl said:


> Honestly, I doubt a canine dental specialist is ever going to tell you just to wait and see. They don't make any money that way.


When I took Bretta to be seen that's exactly what they said! Massage the tooth outward toward where it should be growing a few times a day, and come back to her in 2 weeks.

But that was my dog at her stage with her teeth and gums. I'd much rather spend the $$$$ on the front end and prevent a situation rather than wait and see.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

ollie_leyna said:


> I have an appointment tomorrow afternoon--I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for your responses guys!!


Good luck tomorrow!


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

The specialist jumped straight to surgery. A $900 surgery. He said he has a class II maccloclusion (sp?), and that his lower jaw was about 1/2" behind his upper. 

When I asked him about waiting to see if it improved, he made it seem like that would never happen. I know it would never be perfect, but maybe it would catch up enough to push his lower canines out. 

Right now therapy to move his teeth would be impossible, as his lower canines are pretty much dead center with his uppers. I scheduled an appointment for the surgery three weeks from now, but I am absolutely looking for second opinions. My college alma mater has a really good vet school, so I'm going to check them out, as well as Cornell. 

Overall I was very disappointed with the specialist, and I'm hoping to find other options. I get so upset thinking about him in surgery and then what happens if it does improve?? Gah. Too bad they don't make doggie retainers to protect his upper palate!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Exactly what would be done during the surgery?

I'm a big fan of second opinions.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Have you called your breeder and asked his/her opinion?

If it was my puppy, I would not do the surgery at this point. That pup has a LOT of growing to do.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

He wants to grind down and cap the lower canines. :-/

He said that the jaw is pretty much done by 20 weeks (his birthday is May 24th, so he just turned 5 months yesterday), but that seems to contradict everything I've heard on here. I've emailed Tufts Veterinary school, Cornell, and Guelph, so we'll see what I get back.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe a Yorkie is done growing in the face by 5 months, but not GSDs. Cujo's head is bigger than he was at five months, ok, that is a little, teeny bit of an exaggeration.

This is a couple of 18 week old puppies with their mom. Lots of growing is yet to come:


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I don't know growth spurts, and the growth of the jaw might be different than the growth of the other parts, but it might be worth asking about jaw growth in one of the breeder forums? Reading selzer's post makes me realize that the breeder's might have a good insight into this?


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Good suggestion! I posted under the general breeder stuff--maybe they'll have more concrete data. Thanks


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I assume teething isn't finished until 7 months. I would seek another opinion before jumping into grinding/capping on a 5 month old.
Spacers/braces would be an option?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Okay, this might sounds silly......but.....

I had a dentist that wanted to do this to me - none of my teeth were matching up, and it was causing me pain. He wanted to take each section of my mouth and "reshape" everything so that the bite matched up. I was desperate enough to consider it!

Soooooo glad I didn't do it! After I started seeing a chiropractor, my mouth lined up where it should - my jaw was way out of alignment.

A K9 chiro might be something to try before you try for surgery?

Doctors, worldwide, certified in animal chiropractic by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association

.


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## Quinnsmom (Dec 27, 2008)

Sent you a pm.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh geez I would definitely get a second opinion. If you can avoid grinding and capping a 5mo old puppy's teeth thats probably a g ood idea! Check out abakker (think thats her username) recent dental post. She is a friend of mine....her puppy's teeth looked just like that and they look great right now a month and change later! I dont think you can ever be sure if you need to do something or let it go. Some fix themselves great others dont. But surgery that drastically alerts the adult teeth is insane imo


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You'll have to go with your gut I suppose. My Pan's teeth looked similar if not worse. His canines overlapped and he had one extra one. The only thing we did was have the extra puppy one pulled out and now his bite is perfect.

Like LisaT I was also told as a kid I needed my mouth re-arranged and 10K of orthodontic work. My parents just couldn't afford that so we never did any of it and guess what...ALL my adult teeth "fit" in my mouth including my wisdom teeth. I have one slightly crooked tooth on the bottom up front which you cannot even see even when I smile big. We never did anything the orthodontist suggested. I still have an overbite and my teeth do not line up perfectly but none of this effects how I look or my "smile".


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> I assume teething isn't finished until 7 months. I would seek another opinion before jumping into grinding/capping on a 5 month old.
> Spacers/braces would be an option?


I'd also look into the spacers/braces options. I think I had pictures up above on how that would look...

That said...

can you post ANOTHER picture of his mouth teeth like the first one? Because if his bottom canine is still completely invisible cause it's growing up and into his upper palate and puncturing it, I'm not sure how that will fix itself.

Instead that bottom canine will be held in place BY THE HOLE, and since the resulting hole can allow food/bacteria into the nasal cavity, it's not something I'd be happy about. And fixing all that may be way more than $900.

Why did the surgeon want to wait 2 weeks? Think he'd want to do something early to guide the growing teeth into the proper position?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is how Pan's looked for a while, and they actually got worse before they got better. You can see the bottom canines are behind the top ones (instead of filling that gap and fitting together). The bottom ones did cut into the top of his mouth/gums a bit. You can see the retained upper canine on the left (that was pulled at 6 months). For a while his front top teeth stuck almost straight out. I had an acquaintance go himself and check the bites on the sire and dam, and had a German professor help me read the breed surveys. I believe the dam has one double premolar but neither dog had any mention of overbite and both have correct scissor bite. I decided to wait it out a bit longer. At 6 months he had his prelim xrays done and they pulled the retained canine for free (though it had started turning gray so likely would have come out on its own). The bite slowly improved. By 8 months everything linen up normal and there was a slight overbite. By 12 months it was fine, correct amount of teeth, everything lined up right.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

I used Dr. Hansen with Caja a while ago, and he did good work. A root canal on a canine, with that said I would wait another month or so before you decide on surgery. I did end up having the tooth pulled on Caja last year, it ended up pretty infected along with the other upper one. But without the root canal she wouldn't have been able to get her schutzhund 1.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

He did? I'm glad that he does good work, but he just seemed so negative when I asked about waiting to see what his teeth would do. :-/ 

I scheduled the appt for three weeks from now (have to wait for the teeth to erupt more)--hopefully something will change between then and now that would give us more options.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Keep an eye on the gums/and tissue that the teeth may be affecting. Infection may set in and then you have even more issues to deal with.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

I have some new photos but I don't have the cable for my digital camera...grrr. I'll post asap.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

Here's a photo of his teeth from today--I only just caught his canines and his incisors, but I might be able to get a better shot with some help from my bf tonight. The vet said it's half an inch behind, but it looks more like a quarter of an inch to me.










Here's a shot of his upper palate. As you can see, he's starting to puncture just inside his upper canines, and if you look closely, you can see where his incisors are rubbing against the roof of his mouth as well. 










And here's a photo of my little man--I figured you guys would want to see what he looks like aside from his teeth--also he's just adorable and I can't stop myself!


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

GSDElsa said:


> Oh geez I would definitely get a second opinion. If you can avoid grinding and capping a 5mo old puppy's teeth thats probably a g ood idea! Check out abakker (think thats her username) recent dental post. She is a friend of mine....her puppy's teeth looked just like that and they look great right now a month and change later! I dont think you can ever be sure if you need to do something or let it go. Some fix themselves great others dont. But surgery that drastically alerts the adult teeth is insane imo


Leyna - From buffalo? I grew up in the elmwood district :wub:

My pup Kai (almost seven months now) had a perfect scissor bite at 8 weeks but when she finished up her teething at 5/6 months, I noticed her front right canine came in base narrow (digging into the upper palate of her mouth). Though the situation is a little different than yours because hers was likely caused by a retained baby tooth, her whole bite was thrown way off and downright ugly for a few weeks. I was really stressed and a few people told me the dog would likely need to see a specialist and would need a retainer to realign her bite. I waited it out for a month and luckily, her teeth competely shifted back to where they were supposed to be in a rather short period of time. Though I'm certainly no vet, I think if the dental specialist is telling you hack off a five month old puppy's lower canines, I would wait it out a month or more and see if anything starts changing around. Teething isn't exactly a pleasurable experience for them, but if the dog isn't in any serious pain or discomfort, I would suggest waiting it out and crossing your fingers that things start to shift around. It seems that theres really no way to know at this point whether this dog has a genetic predisposition to having a parrot mouth overbite or whether the dog is just going through a weird growth phase and needs more time for his lower jaw to catch up. Good luck!


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

ollie_leyna said:


> He wants to grind down and cap the lower canines. :-/
> 
> He said that the jaw is pretty much done by 20 weeks (his birthday is May 24th, so he just turned 5 months yesterday), but that seems to contradict everything I've heard on here.


Just wanted to add... My lifelong friend, who happens to be a vet in a very nice buffalo area clinic, feeds her dogs beneful and considers it a 'well balanced dog food'. Her associate recently tried convincing my sister that her unneutered 8 month old brussels puppy will certainly start marking everything in their house if he wasn't neutered immediately. Last week, my personal vet tried convincing me that my black-bi shepherd puppy is a husky mix... Always consider that just because it comes from the mouth of a vet, its never guaranteed to be fact. People try do the best they can, you know? Do your own research, come up with your own conclusions. The Internet can be a very valuable resource once you figure out how to weed through all the nonsense.


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## ollie_leyna (Oct 21, 2011)

*Update*

Hi all,

I just wanted to post an update on Ollie's teeth. He went to the vet for his procedure today. Originally he was supposed to get both lower canines capped, but I noticed a few weeks ago his left canine had moved.

When I took him in this morning, the vet took a look at them (I called ahead and they said they'd re-assess), and he said his left side corrected itself and his right side was looking better too. Instead of capping, they took out a bit of his gum on that side, so his tooth has a place to go. I just have to make sure he plays with his ball as much as possible in the next 2 wks to push his teeth out. 

The procedure much less invasive and he got to keep his teeth! So glad I waited. Thanks everyone for your input!

I'll try to post pics of his teeth in the next few days--his mouth is still a little sensitive.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good news))


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Instead of capping, they took out a bit of his gum on that side, so his tooth has a place to go. I just have to make sure he plays with his ball as much as possible in the next 2 wks to push his teeth out.


Great news! I bet his teeth will really fix themselves out with that help.


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## Jacksons Mom (Jun 23, 2010)

So funny to see this thread- my Yorkie, Jackson, just had to have dental surgery for the same thing. His one canine tooth was causing an indent in his upper palate. He is 3 years old and it was getting to the point where it was bothering him and I KNEW it needed to be fixed. I guess he had what they called a vital pulpotomy. They basically shaved down the tooth and filled it, I think. They thankfully did not have to do any surgery to the gums/roof of mouth. He is young enough to where the skin will probably grow back! He, too, luckily only had it on one canine tooth and not both! It wasn't cheap - we went to a veterinary dentist specialist.


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