# Do you use Susan Garrett's method?



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I love Susan Garrett's methods!! They have helped me and my dog out so much!! Has anyone else used her method??


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I've watched her seminars. Can't say I've followed anything from them, though I've been training dogs for years and am a pretty independent sort at best anyway...

But, for someone just learning methodology, hers is a good one! I've used much the same approach for years! Thing is, she doesn't show much in the way of working with your dog in highly destructive or stressful situations.

There's a place and time for her methodology, but if you really want to go places with your dog, there's a lot more to get there.

It's impossible to explain in a few words. It's an art, and a perspective that is required to get you there...not just technique! 

She's good though, I enjoyed her seminars.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thing is, she doesn't show much in the way of working with your dog in highly destructive or stressful situations.


That is the only thing I don't like with her, but other than that she's great! I would like to find a positive reinforcement trainer that does that. Do you have any recommendations?

I 100% get what you're saying! I had to do that with my dog today while training him to walk nicely on leash, but I truly got what to do with him today! He's a Standard Poodle.

This is him. His name is Sisko


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Good looking dog! I really like standard poodles! 

Anyway, my personal feeling is that as you branch out into more highly distractive situations, while a purely positive approach can work, it simply takes too long!

I train solid obedience without distractions, then correct for misbehavior as distractions are introduced.

But unlike many other trainers, I hardly ever use treats while out and about! From my perspective, it's work, not a game, and not optional. 

So, walks, training in the park or anywhere away from home, NEVER includes treats, but I'll use a ball or praise sometimes. Mostly though, I just demand proper behavior. From experience, it just sets a better understanding in the dog.

At home we're training. There, I reward for attention and for success while learning something new.

Out and about, they are just expected to do what they "know" from our training.

As I said, my view is a bit different that most...

And honestly, offhand, I can't think of any trainer out there advocating the same philosophy...


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good looking dog! I really like standard poodles!
> 
> Anyway, my personal feeling is that as you branch out into more highly distractive situations, while a purely positive approach can work, it simply takes too long!
> 
> ...


Thank you! I like them too, but it's different from having an Australian Shepherd, so it can be challenging sometimes. He is still a baby too😄.

Okay! I also think that behaving should not be an option, and should do what is expected of them.

I start with treats for when he is starting to learn a new behavior or trick, or when we are somewhere new, then I reduce the amount of treats until there's no more, and then expect good behavior where we trained for it.

I ran out of treats while walking with him, but still kept on going, and he did awesome. We make things into games when we can.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good looking dog! I really like standard poodles!
> 
> Anyway, my personal feeling is that as you branch out into more highly distractive situations, while a purely positive approach can work, it simply takes too long!
> 
> ...


Would you use this same method with a dog with serious aggression with an ultimate goal of off leash, public outings?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good looking dog! I really like standard poodles!
> 
> Anyway, my personal feeling is that as you branch out into more highly distractive situations, while a purely positive approach can work, it simply takes too long!
> 
> ...


I use a very similar method! I am going to work on engaging more with my pup more out in public though, I want myself to be more fun and interesting than whatever he's smelling.

The taking too long for purely positive is a huge thing. For some behavior that's okay. But when for example your only option to even let the dog outside to go to the bathroom is on a leash you can't take 2 months(arbitrary number) to teach a new dog to walk nicely on a leash. Especially if you don't have unlimited time in your day, such as also having a job. That's part of the reason training is so situation and it can be helpful to change up methods and incorporate bits and pieces.


----------



## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

If you want to train agility she is very successful. If you want to learn how to shape behavior she is also very good at that. If you want to deal with behavior issues like fear, aggression, separation anxiety, ect... you'll need to look else where. I recommend exposing yourself to a variety of trainers and methods, each one with have their strengths and weaknesses. If you are into reinforcement based training check out Fenzi Dog Sports.


----------



## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good looking dog! I really like standard poodles!
> 
> Anyway, my personal feeling is that as you branch out into more highly distractive situations, while a purely positive approach can work, it simply takes too long!
> 
> ...


Jeff Gellman goes about it that way.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Would you use this same method with a dog with serious aggression with an ultimate goal of off leash, public outings?


I guess that would depend on the dog in question. What is "serious aggression"? IME so much of what people see in their dogs is strongly related to its handling, not so much genetics...


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Here is my Susan Garrett exp. Good friend of mine is a pretty serious agility competetor so of course she has done everyhing Garrett including the Recallers course which is supposed to result in 100% recall. She was lamenting to me thst the dog still blew her off. I said try an e collar. She said no, I'll start over and do Recallers again. I thought, this will be an interesting experiment. She is a serious dog owner. She is a perfectionist. She can be counted on to do EXACTLY what the course says to do.

At the end of it again the dog is still blowing her off. After six months on a long line and ALL the motivational stuff in the world ala Garrett. She finally put him on an e collar and problem solved.

I have also had a conversation along these lines with her about SG. She has the whole "its yer choice" thing and sometimes these people are very into getting the dogs to choose. I've seen plenty of situations where this is just not helpful. It isn't constructive to make the dog choose. They are actually relieved when you just say this is what it is and you don't have a choice.

I don't dislike SG. Obviously she's awesome at agility. I don't think she is a bad dog trainer. But for average real world obedience it's maybe not the best place to look. Although you can probably learn a lot about motivating a dog. 

If my friend couldn't get her dog 100% from that plan it probably can't be done with her type of dog. My lab on the other hand, it would prob work awesome. I haven't even worked that hard on him because he just naturally stays close to me, naturally obeys, doesn't chase game...so what's there to really work on.... you know there are those dogs out there who are just easy no matter what and they can make certain training styles look perfect even when they are lacking.

Don't get me started on Jeff Gellman. If I am not mistaken his membership was finally revoked by IACP


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Bramble said:


> If you want to train agility she is very successful. If you want to learn how to shape behavior she is also very good at that. If you want to deal with behavior issues like fear, aggression, separation anxiety, ect... you'll need to look else where. I recommend exposing yourself to a variety of trainers and methods, each one with have their strengths and weaknesses. If you are into reinforcement based training check out Fenzi Dog Sports.


Okay, thanks! Looking at it right now.


----------



## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Don't get me started on Jeff Gellman. If I am not mistaken his membership was finally revoked by IACP


I definitely don't like the guy or his methods and would never let him touch one of my dogs. Tim said there weren't any trainers out there not using treats and demanding dogs behave so I gave him an example of someone who follows that philosophy.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I like Susan Garrett in my experience with my male it was the enforcing the beginning of shaping behaviors and positive training but she or similar trainers was not my one way ticket to my goals with my male. With my goal being a lot of off leash hiking with many distractions deer, woods filled with feral cats etc. proofing with the ecollar and not being depending upon it was my result using a different trainer which brought the balance I needed and found positive and negative training overlaps nicely. My female on the other hand who has less prey drive and less thick headed - i would not have to deviate much from someone like Susan Garrett. Most like any teachers, religion, politics or just about anything you can take what you like and need and move on from there. She offers free training videos.No harm in getting some free advice.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Here is my Susan Garrett exp. Good friend of mine is a pretty serious agility competetor so of course she has done everyhing Garrett including the Recallers course which is supposed to result in 100% recall. She was lamenting to me thst the dog still blew her off. I said try an e collar. She said no, I'll start over and do Recallers again. I thought, this will be an interesting experiment. She is a serious dog owner. She is a perfectionist. She can be counted on to do EXACTLY what the course says to do.
> 
> At the end of it again the dog is still blowing her off. After six months on a long line and ALL the motivational stuff in the world ala Garrett. She finally put him on an e collar and problem solved.
> 
> ...


Okay, thank you, so much! I was going to save up money and join Recallers, but probably not after reading this. 

I heard of Jeff Gellman. That would be good if his membership got revoked.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Jenny720 said:


> I like Susan Garrett in my experience with my male it was the enforcing the beginning of shaping behaviors and positive training but she or similar trainers was not my one way ticket to my goals with my male. With my goal being a lot of off leash hiking with many distractions deer, woods filled with feral cats etc. proofing with the ecollar and not being depending upon it was my result using a different trainer which brought the balance I needed and found positive and negative training overlaps nicely. My female on the other hand who has less prey drive and less thick headed - i would not have to deviate much from someone like Susan Garrett. Most like any teachers, religion, politics or just about anything you can take what you like and need and move on from there. She offers free training videos.No harm in getting some free advice.


Okay, thank you🙂!


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think that the average pet dog with an average owner could probably do really well with SG. But the problem with methods is that they are likes ruts, you get stuck in them. 
Methods of any kind keep people from thinking outside the box and when the method doesn't work then frustration starts to build. That's why you hear people saying that you need to train the dog in front of you.
Some dogs respond best to a particular type of training and some dogs need combinations of things to reach their potential. A fairly large number of the dogs I had came to me as unmanageable. They weren't, they just needed a different approach then their previous owners had used.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I think that the average pet dog with an average owner could probably do really well with SG. But the problem with methods is that they are likes ruts, you get stuck in them.
> Methods of any kind keep people from thinking outside the box and when the method doesn't work then frustration starts to build. That's why you hear people saying that you need to train the dog in front of you.
> Some dogs respond best to a particular type of training and some dogs need combinations of things to reach their potential. A fairly large number of the dogs I had came to me as unmanageable. They weren't, they just needed a different approach then their previous owners had used.


So true! I find that I have to think outside the box and mix and match methods with my dog (he is a Standard Poodle). That's sad that the previous owners didn't try any other methods and just labeled their dogs unmanageable and gave up on them.

I don't want to be an average owner with an average pet dog. I have big plans for my dogs and myself😄.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow Shep said:


> So true! I find that I have to think outside the box and mix and match methods with my dog (he is a Standard Poodle). That's sad that the previous owners didn't try any other methods and just labeled their dogs unmanageable and gave up on them.
> 
> I don't want to be an average owner with an average pet dog. I have big plans for my dogs and myself😄.


Then my advice would be to study a lot of different and opposing methods and experiment. One of the things no one ever addresses is that some methods fail for some owners simply because of who they are. If the methodology runs counter to the owners personality it is not going to work well no matter the effort applied. 
Spoo's are highly intelligent dogs with serious backbones. One of my favorite breeds. I've worked with a couple and I enjoy them. Yours is very cute.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Then my advice would be to study a lot of different and opposing methods and experiment. One of the things no one ever addresses is that some methods fail for some owners simply because of who they are. If the methodology runs counter to the owners personality it is not going to work well no matter the effort applied.
> Spoo's are highly intelligent dogs with serious backbones. One of my favorite breeds. I've worked with a couple and I enjoy them. Yours is very cute.


Okay, thank you! 

Yeah! That's awesome! I don't know where people get those stereotypes about them from! They must have never interacted with the breed at all. 

Thank you! Sisko seems to have some anxiety (not due to lack of exercise, and it's a long story how he got like that. I can PM you if you're interested in hearing about it) I'm still training him, but it has had really bumpy moments because he gets frustrated really quickly and easily with training and learning new things, so it's really hard to do. One thing that is getting a lot better is his leash walking😁


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I really like It's Yer Choice as a foundation for puppies. It's basically a default leave it, and I add default eye contact too. They learn that if I have something they want they need to ignore it and look at me instead. I've also used her method for creating a motivating toy before, I can't remember with which dog though. It was a while ago. Those are the only Susan Garrett things I've tried and they were both very beneficial.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I really like It's Yer Choice as a foundation for puppies. It's basically a default leave it, and I add default eye contact too. They learn that if I have something they want they need to ignore it and look at me instead. I've also used her method for creating a motivating toy before, I can't remember with which dog though. It was a while ago. Those are the only Susan Garrett things I've tried and they were both very beneficial.


Okay, thank you. I struggle trying to get Sisko to maintain eye contact. May I ask how you did it?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Here is my Susan Garrett exp. Good friend of mine is a pretty serious agility competetor so of course she has done everyhing Garrett including the Recallers course which is supposed to result in 100% recall. She was lamenting to me thst the dog still blew her off. I said try an e collar. She said no, I'll start over and do Recallers again. I thought, this will be an interesting experiment. She is a serious dog owner. She is a perfectionist. She can be counted on to do EXACTLY what the course says to do.
> 
> At the end of it again the dog is still blowing her off. After six months on a long line and ALL the motivational stuff in the world ala Garrett. She finally put him on an e collar and problem solved.
> 
> ...


Just curious as to your friend's dog breed.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow Shep said:


> Okay, thank you!
> 
> Yeah! That's awesome! I don't know where people get those stereotypes about them from! They must have never interacted with the breed at all.
> 
> Thank you! Sisko seems to have some anxiety (not due to lack of exercise, and it's a long story how he got like that. I can PM you if you're interested in hearing about it) I'm still training him, but it has had really bumpy moments because he gets frustrated really quickly and easily with training and learning new things, so it's really hard to do. One thing that is getting a lot better is his leash walking😁


you can pm me anytime!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Shadow Shep said:


> Okay, thank you. I struggle trying to get Sisko to maintain eye contact. May I ask how you did it?


Are you trying to get sustained eye contact or just increase engagement in general? You need to get consistent eye contact before you can begin to build duration so pick your starting point based on wherever you're at with that. And before you expect to get that kind of attention outdoors in a high distraction environment, perfect it at home in a low distraction environment. 

I start out with a new puppy by reinforcing eye contact whenever offered up. Puppy looks at me, click/treat (or a verbal marker). The more puppy gets rewarded for seeking out eye contact, the more s/he does so. With regards to It's Yer Choice, I sit on the floor with a handful of kibble. As soon as the pup stops trying to get it and backs away, I open my hand. I close it if puppy dives in again and wait. Usually when the pup backs off from trying to get at the food, it looks up at me. I keep opening and closing my hand as necessary until I can sit there with food in my open hand and puppy is sitting or laying down watching me and then I start to feed kibble a piece at a time. As long as s/he is waiting for me to hand over each piece, I continue. If not, I close my hand and wait for pup to back off and look at me again. How long it takes to get to this point depends on the dog. It may take some patience, but be consistent.

I build eye contact into everything I can think of. Opening the door to go out? Puppy has to ask by sitting and looking at me until released. Same with the food bowl, same with a bone or to throw a ball. This is all default behavior, the dog learns that impulse control is what works to get what s/he wants. I'm not saying anything, there's no "leave it" or "watch", the dog understands the rules. I do later name these things and put them on cue but not until I'm getting them consistently offered spontaneously. It never took very long for my dogs to figure out that if I walked towards the door to the garage, where they're fed, and just stand there saying nothing and doing nothing, they have to sit and make eye contact in order for me to open the door. And if they tried to run out before I said "okay", I'd slam the door shut. 

Have you watched the video? If not, here it is.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Are you trying to get sustained eye contact or just increase engagement in general? You need to get consistent eye contact before you can begin to build duration so pick your starting point based on wherever you're at with that. And before you expect to get that kind of attention outdoors in a high distraction environment, perfect it at home in a low distraction environment.
> 
> I start out with a new puppy by reinforcing eye contact whenever offered up. Puppy looks at me, click/treat (or a verbal marker). The more puppy gets rewarded for seeking out eye contact, the more s/he does so. With regards to It's Yer Choice, I sit on the floor with a handful of kibble. As soon as the pup stops trying to get it and backs away, I open my hand. I close it if puppy dives in again and wait. Usually when the pup backs off from trying to get at the food, it looks up at me. I keep opening and closing my hand as necessary until I can sit there with food in my open hand and puppy is sitting or laying down watching me and then I start to feed kibble a piece at a time. As long as s/he is waiting for me to hand over each piece, I continue. If not, I close my hand and wait for pup to back off and look at me again. How long it takes to get to this point depends on the dog. It may take some patience, but be consistent.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to do both. I've been playing it's Its Yer Choice for over a month with him every chance I get with food, and opening doors, I have made progress with him if something drops, but sometimes he still doesn't sit when waiting to go out. Can I have suggestions for playing it in other situations please?

The bottom line with Sisko is he has poor impulse control.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Curious- does this impulse game conflict with chasing the treat lessons we often use starting a pup in OB?


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> Curious- does this impulse game conflict with chasing the treat lessons we often use starting a pup in OB?


Hmmmm, I'm not sure, but it might.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Muskeg said:


> Curious- does this impulse game conflict with chasing the treat lessons we often use starting a pup in OB?


I did not find that to be the case, since I'd released the dog with the marker so it was free to chase the treat. It wasn't an issue with luring behaviors either.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If Sisko doesn't sit to go outside, what do you do? Do you let him out anyway? Unless he needs to go outside urgently I'd simply wait a few seconds and if he just stands there, turn around and walk away from the door. I usually use a negative marker to indicated that there will be no reward - in this case access to the outdoors. "Oops!" or "sorry!" or something like that, wait a few minutes and try again. 

The concept of default behaviors is that they're not cued, the dog learns what's expected by context and does it automatically. In order for you to open the door and release him to go out, he has to sit. You shouldn't need to tell him to do it. If he's not, then he doesn't yet understand, so back up a step and cue it a few times until he gets it. This is more NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) than it is It's Yer Choice - you want something, you do something for me first. I've also seen it referred to as Say Please.


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If Sisko doesn't sit to go outside, what do you do? Do you let him out anyway? Unless he needs to go outside urgently I'd simply wait a few seconds and if he just stands there, turn around and walk away from the door. I usually use a negative marker to indicated that there will be no reward - in this case access to the outdoors. "Oops!" or "sorry!" or something like that, wait a few minutes and try again.
> 
> The concept of default behaviors is that they're not cued, the dog learns what's expected by context and does it automatically. In order for you to open the door and release him to go out, he has to sit. You shouldn't need to tell him to do it. If he's not, then he doesn't yet understand, so back up a step and cue it a few times until he gets it. This is more NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) than it is It's Yer Choice - you want something, you do something for me first. I've also seen it referred to as Say Please.


Okay, thank you. I will look at more NILIF. I close the door when he doesn't sit, and I do it everytime we go out.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just be honest with your dog! None of these stupid techniques are going to save you!

Communiate with the dog I'm front of you!!!

Reinforce what you do want, and discourage the rest...it isn't rocket science!

Some things take time...and consistancy! Others, just time and patience...


----------



## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just be honest with your dog! None of these stupid techniques are going to save you!
> 
> Communiate with the dog I'm front of you!!!
> 
> ...


Thank you. I know all of this. I was already training like this. Then our training got derailed and what used to work didn't work anymore. But it might be starting to work again😁.


----------

