# Why is color so important??



## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have a few questions.

1) Why in the West German lines and shows are almost all the major winners red and black? Why are sables, blacks, bi-colors, and black and tan (less pigmented) dogs overlooked or not bred for?

2) What advantage to working does having a deeper shade of red color have for a German Shepherd Dog?

3) Why are American judges okay with putting up black, bi-color, blanket saddled, and sable dogs, but German ones are not? What's the difference between the two countries in regards to color?

4) Why are there few working lines GSDs that are red and black saddle pattern?

Even on this board, when someone posts a dog to be evaluated, color often is one of the first or only things responders mention. Just wondering what the importance of depth of the tan or red color is in this breed.

Thanks!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

The color doesn't mean anything. It just happens that way.









Well, somebody can explain it better, but an example is that American show lines tend to be saddles, and are breed to other American show lines who are also saddles and it's not often that another color type is bred because the saddle is so perpetuated.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Effie325I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) Why in the West German lines and shows are almost all the major winners red and black? Why are sables, blacks, bi-colors, and black and tan (less pigmented) dogs overlooked or not bred for?


Because back in the 60s and 70s the dogs produced by the kennels that controlled the SV were black/tan. So it became the preferred color of those trying to compete with them. The German show breeders in all countries, but especially in Europe, have a huge export market. The world over, the vision everyone has of a GSD is black/tan saddleback. We see this even here in the US where many aren't even aware they come in other colors and even if they are many still want that "classic" look. So producing the color the majority of the population considers most correct and representative of the breed increases marketability and sales, or so the breeders believe.

It is to the point now where the genetics for other colors are practically extinct in the German show lines, so they couldn't produce another color if they wanted to.



> Originally Posted By: Effie325
> 2) What advantage to working does having a deeper shade of red color have for a German Shepherd Dog?


It has no advantage. Many just find richer, more reddish pigment to be more aesthetically appealing.



> Originally Posted By: Effie325
> 3) Why are American judges okay with putting up black, bi-color, blanket saddled, and sable dogs, but German ones are not? What's the difference between the two countries in regards to color?


You'd have to ask a judge. But my theory is that the whole "cookie cutter" mentality of all dogs looking the same seems to be more pronounced in European show judges, so they are less likely to break with that and put up a dog who doesn't look like everyone else. American show breeders have been presenting dogs of all colors forever, so judges haven't had the opportunity to get brainwashed to think black/tan is the only way to go.



> Originally Posted By: Effie325
> 4) Why are there few working lines GSDs that are red and black saddle pattern?


Because most working line people don't care about color so long as it is a color acceptable by the standard. That allows the genes to express themselves more naturally. Most working lines are sable just because it is the most dominant gene. Black and black/tan are quite common, but not as common as sable because they are recessive to it. Bi-color is the least common, simply because genetically it is the least common color gene available in the gene pool. 

The black/tans that are found tend to be more tan than red, and often more melanistic (larger, darker black markings) because for the most part breeders have allowed genetics to run their course and haven't selected for any specific color. Whereas the German show breeders have made black/red saddlebacks a priority and bred for it for decades, in many cases sacrificing black markings (we see this often in very small, faded saddles) in favor of getting more red pigment in the tan.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

Interesting. That's all mostly what I thought, but I figured I'd ask the experts!









It makes no sense to me. Color is the last thing I care about, though all things equal I have a special appreciation for sables and bi-colors.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's like Carole said, color is incidental, it's more about structure type, and the type these lines have pretty much all carry the black and red color. So it's not that they are not choosing other colors, these colors just don't exist. There are some big name show line kennels who probably have not had a color other than black and red show up for dozens of litters if ever at all. 

Even among black and red/tan you will see variations in black coverage, how rich the red is, eye color, etc. Plenty of dogs win and are used heavily for breeding that do not have full black masks and/or very faded saddle markings. Like Chris said, it seems that they are more concerned with the richness of the red than how much black coverage there is. I personally like a lot of black on the face, but that's just an aesthetic personal preference, I would never want that to take priority over health, temperament, etc. My first GSD is the opposite of what I wanted as far as looks, size, color, pattern, etc.

There are a few very successful sable German show lines.

Working lines are rarely placed highly. Color is incidental here as well, other than it being an easy way of identifying the dog as a working line for those less familiar with the show circuit. The top placements and large shows really have very little to do with the quality of the dog. It is very political and the dogs that win are heavily campaigned show dogs. Working line dogs probably have much better things to do, lol, plus the owners know the dog is not going to win b/c he is not the "type" the judges are looking for so why spend all that time an money campaigning the dog?


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

True. I just think it's kind of sad. Like in Whippets, black dogs rarely win. They're also rarely as typey and pretty as the show dogs. Most race Whippets are black or solid brindle or solid fawn- most show Whippets are flashy brindle and white or fawn and white. It's silly, though- because it shouldn't matter.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Effie325It's silly, though- because it shouldn't matter.


Yep *sigh*

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1207672&page=0&fpart=1
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1207758&page=0&fpart=1
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1187295&page=1#Post1187295


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I remember reading something somewhere written by an old time show breeder where she said that one reason *she* preferred a black/tan or patterned sable was because she felt it helped accenuate the dog's angles, and in fact the right set of markings could create an optical illusion and make the angles seem different (more correct) than they truly were. 

But I've no idea if that has anything to do with why those colors are preferred in show. I really tend to think it's more just due to public perception that it is the "correct" color for a GSD, and since the majority of pups from show breeders go into pet homes they are trying to appeal to that.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI really tend to think it's more just due to public perception that it is the "correct" color for a GSD, and since the majority of pups from show breeders go into pet homes they are trying to appeal to that.


Interesting, I think you're onto something with that. 

Otto looked like a blanket back until about 10 or 11 months, now he's starting to get a bit of lighter tan ticking along his newly defined red/black saddle. Before he had those 'classic' markings, I often had people ask 'german shepherd, right?'

He's still very dark for a saddle back. LOL least I think he's a saddle back. The lines along the saddle (what do you call those, the reins







) are reddish tan where my classic black and tan female has silver

you tell me, he sure is a bit different. (this is the first picture I could find that shows the red on his shoulders, must dash to get Boy #1)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jenn I call the lines the "wings", not sure if that is a real term though, lol


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild I really tend to think it's more just due to public perception that it is the "correct" color for a GSD, and since the majority of pups from show breeders go into pet homes they are trying to appeal to that.


I agree.

Just look at the huge number of new members that post that are wanting a puppy and it MUST be the "classic" black and tan saddle color.

Though at least im my area, folks DO know that just becasue a dog is sable, that doesn't mean it isn't a GSD. I think the police K-9s really help with that. A lot of places you rarely, if ever, see a police K9 that is black and tan. If they are a GSD they are usually sable or solid black(or Bi-color). So while folks might WANT a black and tan dog, they are beginning to realize that they DO come on other colors. I haven't had anyone yet that didn't know Siren was a GSD. (Even when she was a tiny baby.) Well that is EXCEPT for the stupid girls in the vets office.







But my vet DID know what she was.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I get asked all the time what mine is. He's a coat and a bi color and a puppy, so there's no hope! lol


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

I think it is sad when people don't know what king of dog Asgard is. He is a sable, and people always ask one of two things:

What kind of dog is he?
Is he a purebred shepherd?

And there have even been people who wondered if he had wolf in him! *sigh*

At least they always think he looks 'cool' or 'gorgeous' because they think he is rare or something...

I mean, those who have seen sable shepherds obviously know he is a GSD, but the general public seem to have no idea! The other GSD colors are too under appreciated or under represented imo.

edit:
Figured I should add a picture... typical sable gsd


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Asgard is beautiful!







Glad you found him, if you know what I mean...
I just looked at his pedigree and he shares Pike and Karlo w/ my boy! Distant cousins!
I've gotten the same thing from people who don't know the breed, about Karlo. Think he is a wolf mix. His eyes are very dark, not yellow!
Onyx is a bi-color and people don't know what she is, Kacie is a blanket back long coat, I get asked about her as well. But you know what, everyone comments on my dogs when we are out in public. Not sure that would happen if I was walking a cocker spaniel. (Not that I have anything against CS's)
My old boy Stomper was a black and people didn't know what he was.
I don't think I will ever have a "normal" black and tan/red


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh my gosh, he's GORGEOUS! I want a sable next


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

Thanks









Onyx'girl: That's nead that they share some relatives! I wonder if they will share any characteristics from them!


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## wolfmonte (Aug 28, 2019)

It looks nice.


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