# Trainer corrections



## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Without taking the time to write a long story, I will say that my trainer gave my dog a correction with a prong collar that made him yelp. (He downed on an out of sight sit.)

I've never given him more than a mild correction. She said she didn't hurt him.......that he was being dramatic. I don't treat my dog this way.

I don't believe anyone but me should correct my dog. 

After that episode, we were doing something else and he was in a sit-stay. When she moved toward him, he broke to move away from her. He wouldn't break the sit if anyone else moved toward him.

This is really bothering me. My trainer is very well respected and very successful. Am I being overly sensitive? 

I can't work with someone my dog is going to fear. She has laughed at what I consider a correction for my dog. 

Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It depends on the dog, yours seems pretty soft and doesn't recover easily. Because this is the case, I'd talk with your trainer about your dogs temperament and let her know that her corrections are too much for him. 
I don't think she was out of line correcting for the out of sight down stay, but she should be aware that your dog isn't one that needs a collar pop.

All dogs are so different, she should apply her methods to the individual and not think one size fits all.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you don't feel comfortable with this trainer, don't go to her. If you have a problem with her correcting your dog when he goes down on an out of sight, then how will your dog learn he can't do that?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Are there other trainers at the facility you can work with? Or can you be bold enough to say to the trainer, I am not going to "pop" my dog that hard?

We have used a trainer that uses the prong for corrections. It is very effective, but when it gets to the point where the dog is yelping, I've heard dog owners outside of class question this method and not want to come back. At training I am criticized for being too easy with a correction, then the trainer would show me a firmer correction in front of the class, also stating the "pop" is not hurting my dog - she didn't cry out. So it seemed that yelping/crying out was the sign your correction was too aggressive.

If you like everything else about the class, the facilities, the activities, etc, then you might continue to go and just explain that you are not going to allow your dog to be handled that way. If you trainer is like mine - money motivated - they might let you continue with class if you want to keep paying for lessons. On your own time, you can start to use more positive methods of training. We had used prong then graduated to a reward/treat based training. (Our dog was not into treat training when she was younger).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what exactly was she correcting him for?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If it were me, I'd fire her and find a different trainer that you and your dog can trust. It sounds like she's shattered this dog's trust in her. Also, laughing at your preferred style of mild correction strikes me as unprofessional and obnoxious IMHO (and it would annoy _me_ if a trainer were to do that)--having an honest, respectful conversation about whether the mild corrections are working for you would seem like more appropriate approach for a trainer. 

If it were me, I'd trust my instincts and listen to my dog. I'd look for someone with a training philosophy that works for you so that you have a supportive partner in training who will take the time to see your dog as an individual and tailor the training method to his learning style so that it is _fun _for the dog. What you describe doesn't sound like it's fun for you, or the dog.


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## iloveshepherds (Jul 10, 2012)

i think you should find a different trainer... doesnt sound like you both are "clicking"

why does your dog need a prong for training? my trainer actually bans prong collars from her training class. (alot of people dont use them right)
next time she approaches your dog, tell her you will make your own correction with him.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

My dog is very confident, and I remember the first 3 super harsh corrections our trainer gave to our dog made our dog back away from him at the 3rd jerk (with a choke chain). My dog was reacting towards other dog.
But then it was the harshest correction he ever gave, and never gave such harsh ones again. And my dog is not afraid of him, the trainer does balance between corrections and praises.

But that is coz my dog is strong and there's balance between correction and praise. With your dog, it clearly is too harsh for him. I don't buy it that a yelp like that is complaint, a frustrated complaint sound from a dog is different, and dogs don't fake pain yelps.

I use a pinch collar myself on my strong dog, so I have no problems with it. But IMO, a good trainer should evaluate a dog's temperament to find the appropriate training tools and not just put the same intensity of correction on every dog. Why over correct a dog, when he just needs a softer correction? Or even actually no correction but motivational training?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Your trainer gave your dog a correction that made him yelp. So? It sounds like it was appropriate. 

The question is did you give your trainer permission to correct your dog? If this is normal, then I don't see a problem. If you haven't given permission and he had never corrected your dog before, then it's a problem.

It sounds like your corrections are very mild and your trainer finds them ineffective. Maybe you should reevaluate the corrections you are giving and decide if they are effective or not. If you have to nag your dog or the correction doesn't get the reaction desired, then it's ineffective.

If you don't like what your trainer is doing, no matter what, it's your choice to leave or not.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It's your dog. It doesn't matter how good of a reputation your trainer has, if you are not comfortable with her methods and your dog is not comfortable with her methods then you should find a different trainer. 

I have a soft dog. My corrections are verbal only (and relatively mild) and quite effective for him. Every dog is different and if your trainer can't or won't recognize that then that is another reason to find a different trainer.


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## ali822 (Aug 7, 2012)

You are not being overly sensitive at all. I once had a trainer that used a prong collar on my Boxer, they made him yelp as well and then they recommend I euthanize him because of how relentlessly he attacked the trainer, they told me on a scale of 1-10 he was a 12. They did it a second time and I never took him back there again. He actually developed an angry trigger as a result of the prong collar use. Euthanizing him was never an option ever. 

The next trainer I worked with figured out our problem right away! My Boxer only new Spanish! I adopted him when he was 2 and I speak English. She used only positive reinforcement NILF training on him and made him think more and it worked great. 

She used the following example: You don't knwo Spanish, I'm giong to send you to Mexico for a week and every time someone says something to you and you don't respond to what they say I'll punch you in the face. Eventually you'll get so frustrated and angry you're going to fight back.


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Rebound time seems pretty important in situations like this. My dog yelped once with his prong on because he tried to lunge to play with another dog. 5 seconds later, he was back to being his goofy self and has never backed away from the trainer as a result. 

I think it's best to go with your gut. If you feel uncomfortable then so will your pup.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sheep said:


> dogs don't fake pain yelps.


Actually, they do. Many dogs learn that yelping makes a painful, scary, or annoying thing stop. So they will yelp pre-emptively if think it will prevent something they don't want.

I see it all the time in the grooming shop. Client says "He won't let me brush him!" Which is code for "I try to brush him but he fights and cries and tries to bite, so I give up quickly."

I get the dog on the table and the dog starts yelping the moment I touch him with the brush. He doesn't like to be brushed, and he knows that if he yelps, fights, and snaps, it makes his owner back off. Unfortunately he has to un-learn that with me, and you'd think I am torturing that poor dog, the way he's crying and snarling and blubbering and carrying on. I'm obviously not hurting the dog by brushing his hair, but he'd rather be doing something else, and he'll naturally do what he's been "taught" to do when he's not getting his way. In short, he's trained his owner.

Not saying this reflects on the OPs situation. It's possible your dog could have been overly "dramatic", but it sounds like he's a really soft dog that doesn't recover well from corrections. So for him, corrections probably need to be somewhere in between what you're doing and what the trainer did that made him yelp. If the correction made him fearful, it's too harsh. If your trainer thinks your corrections aren't effective, then they probably need to be a LITTLE stronger, but not strong enough to make him cry.

With some dogs, learning how to take a correction is part of the process. The correction needs to get the dog's attention, and be unpleasant enough that he wants to avoid it, but not so painful that he lives in fear of it. At first, he may not understand what causes the correction, and he may become anxious and confused. Once he understands what he needs to do in order to avoid the unpleasant stimulus, he'll have an "aha" moment and his attitude should improve, and he'll be less likely to go into avoidance or shut-down mode.

You should be able to communicate with your trainer and let her know that your dog is soft and sensitive, and that hard corrections may be counterproductive. If the trainer is used to working hard, high-drive, resilient dogs, this may just be her default mode, but she needs to be able to adjust her methods to suit the dog's temperament. If she doesn't listen, or if what she says feels wrong in your gut, then you need to find another trainer that you "click" with and trust. 

I generally only use corrections in obedience when I know the dog fully understands what is expected of him, and he chooses to do something else. I may also use corrections to diminish uwanted behaviors. But whenever I have to use a correction, I make it a point to use lavish praise and high-value reward the moment the dog realigns himself to the desired behavior. That way, the dog learns that a correction will always be followed with reward for doing the right thing, so he's less likely to fear corrections, and more likely to try harder to do the right thing if he gets one. If a dog is cringing, showing signs of anxiety, or shutting down and sulking, that's a dog that needs a LOT of positive training methods and rewards rather than punishment-based training.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I believed that I had a soft, very sensitive dog for a very long time. It wasn't until this last weekend when working at an IPO seminar that I had a trainer disagree. I've been having trouble keeping Aiden clean in protection and never thought that I would be able to physically correct him without having avoidance issues afterwards.

This weekend, the trainer told me to give him a firm correction. I was hesitant, and of course he yelped at the first correction, but once he realized that I wasn't fooling around, he stopped yelping at the following corrections. He had me trained to think that I'd stop if he made a big scene and cried that I would stop, so I never gave him corrections. He was absolutely faking it. After a few sessions, Aiden doesn't make a peep at a correction anymore. 

It needs to be made clear to the dog what exactly you are correcting them for, and with you out of sight, you will need another person to correct him for that behavior.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

In my opinion, more important than it being clear to the dog why it is being corrected is being clear and fair to the dog in expectation. Have you kept a training journal? What is your dog's current average duration for out of sight sits? Are you going WAY passed that when she breaks? Have you gradually built up that duration? Keep good records so that you can know where the threshold is. If you leave for 60 secs and the dog has a 30sec threshold and downs after 45 secs, you need to make note of that in your training journal. Work your out of sight sits for 40 secs and immediately come back to reward the dog. There needs to be more value in holding the sit, and if you don't know your dog's threshold for holding that behavior, you are in the dark about knowing how to build the duration. There's absolutely no reason to be issuing a correction on a dog that doesn't have any value in holding the position your asking. Completely unfair to the dog.

I also initially trained under a heavy-handed trainer. It's good motivation to learn about the other strategies out there that have a bit more respect for the dog as a thinking/conscience being.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Stosh yelped the first time he was corrected with a prong- the trainer had just fitted it and was demonstrating the proper way to use it and waited until a correction was needed. I think it was more out of surprise than anything else since he adores that trainer and Stosh is a bit over dramatic. I'm not sure I would switch trainers over that one incident.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok I still want to know exactly what the trainer was correcting him for?

And I have/had a couple of drama queens

My gosh I'm surprised AC hasn't shown up at my house when I blowing out Masi, that girl screams like I'm killing her, she stands there like a perfect angel, but the noise she makes is unreal


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok I still want to know exactly what the trainer was correcting him for?


Wouldn't the correction be for breaking the sit? Were you looking for something more specific?


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I have had a lot of dogs who should win an oscar for best actor/actress. Not saying that your dog was faking his reaction,but that could be a possibility. If you are happy with your trainer otherwise,I wouldn't stop going to her. If I were really bothered by what happened,then I would call her and talk to her before going to the next session.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't think I've seen dogs that are more dramatic than GSD's!  However... I learned the "hard way" about over-correction of a dog that's soft to the handler. I had a hard time adjusting my training to her in the beginning. Yes, it could be that you're not correcting "enough". The test of that is "are you getting the desired response with what you're currently doing?" If the answer is "yes" then continue on. If it's "no" then you need to adjust. It's hard to not become protective or defensive in this position. However, they can and *will* yelp from a correction either because it's not been done before or they're being a drama queen. However, the response toward the trainer afterwards is troublesome. Also, did the trainer *ever* acknowledge after the dog showed fear of her that she'd maybe gone over the top? Did she come back to the dog with praise and reward after seeing the dog's reaction to her? If not, she's not a "good trainer" in my book. Every owner and trainer needs to know the dog and adjust accordingly. I think it's unprofessional to laugh at a client's training method. There are many trainers out there, and just because some people may think they're great, if that's not your experience then it is what it is. Personally? If a trainer made my dog cry out, I wouldn't right off think this is a problem. However, if then they laughed at me and/or didn't recognize the impact on the dog and try to correct that right off I'd be out the door. That dog *could* (depending on the dog, of course) turn aggressive in defense of itself or be so worried about what happened that it's not paying attention to the training anymore. IMO, you shouldn't have to point out to a "good" trainer that the correction has caused issues and to try another method. They should be able to see this themselves, AND it would've been a great "teachable moment" for what happens when you over-correct a dog that's soft to the handler and how to adjust after that, etc. 

Trainers are not only teaching the dog, they're supposed to be teaching the handlers. So, this may be a good time to turn this into a "teachable moment" for the trainer. I still cringe remembering the mistake like this I made with my female. It involved using an e-collar, and after ONE correction she was so aware of it that simply picking up the remote made her go and lay down... head down and all. She never did recover from that. I had been too used to dogs that were hard to the handler and failed to evaluate this about her prior to that. Please (even if you leave the class) TELL the trainer what happened after with your dog. I'd want to make sure she was aware so this doesn't happen to another dog like yours in the future. At the same time, evaluate your methods to see if you need to adjust. This does sound like a dog that need more positive training and less correction based training.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well duh willy your right LOL I didn't see the parentheses in her first post ,,one of those dayz..

I most likely would not have given a yank on a soft dog, I however would have gone over and put the dog back into a sit.

And I agree with Jag, gsd's CAN be soooo dramatic! When I was training for competition obedience, my trainer was very old school, but was also totally into rewarding with food/praise, she had so many OTCH dogs I lost count, She would have totally done this and honestly I wouldn't have been phased by it with my gsd's. 

Anyhow, depending on what you want out of the dog and the dog itself I think would be dependent on how I corrected.

My aussie is a marshmellow, and would definitely shut down with such a correction. I would have walked back and put the dog back in position. My gsd's not so much, they would get the message and move on.

If OP's dog was then avoiding trainer, it sounds like she is a softer dog, and I probably wouldn't have liked the trainer correcting my 'soft' dog like that. 

I agree with Jag, I would speak to the trainer voice your concerns..It really is NOT unusual for a trainer to 'correct' a dog especially when doing out of sights..


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

wildo said:


> In my opinion, more important than it being clear to the dog why it is being corrected is being clear and fair to the dog in expectation. Have you kept a training journal? What is your dog's current average duration for out of sight sits? Are you going WAY passed that when she breaks? Have you gradually built up that duration? Keep good records so that you can know where the threshold is. If you leave for 60 secs and the dog has a 30sec threshold and downs after 45 secs, you need to make note of that in your training journal. Work your out of sight sits for 40 secs and immediately come back to reward the dog. There needs to be more value in holding the sit, and if you don't know your dog's threshold for holding that behavior, you are in the dark about knowing how to build the duration. There's absolutely no reason to be issuing a correction on a dog that doesn't have any value in holding the position your asking. Completely unfair to the dog.
> 
> I also initially trained under a heavy-handed trainer. It's good motivation to learn about the other strategies out there that have a bit more respect for the dog as a thinking/conscience being.


Yeah, to me how I would define a successful trainer and how this trainer acted are 2 different things. And I like Wildo's post. 

IF you wanted to correct your dog that is one thing (and obviously you were not able to from where you were at) and it sounds like you know how you want to do that. 

But, I don't like anyone else correcting my dogs, unless they are a danger to themselves or others. 

Think about all the situations that you could replace the word trainer with - groomer, vet, UPS, drunk uncle, etc, and imagine peoples' reactions then. Just because someone has a title doesn't make them right all the time - I don't know a human who is.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

In all the training I did, the trainer was a guide for me to train my own dog. I would not accept nor allow the trainer to give the correction, its your dog, your decision on the training you want to do. If anyone gives the dog a correction, it should be you. I would either tell the trainer that you prefer that they don't correct your dog, but show you how(if that is the method you want to use) you can decide what your dog can handle...no matter how soft the dog is OR I'd find another trainer. We always tell people to go to classes because of the bond it creates or for the mere fact that not only is the dog being trained, but the owner is also learning. That is what training should be.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jean, your right, and I think anyone going into an obedience class should be clear on what they expect , want and don't want the trainer to do when it comes to their dogs.

Some trainers may be offended by it, but if they are, well then they probably aren't the trainer for "me"..Trainers should not only teach but respect that a client may not want 'them' correcting their dog and should be willing to base training on the dog itself.. 

I don't mind it, in a class setting, IF the correction is appropriate, because I am there to learn as well as my dog. If it was an inappropriate correction then I'd be PO'd. I've had some pretty hard core trainers, and honestly can't recall any of them correcting my dog mostly telling ME what to do..

Some people are unprepared , may be afraid to say something, aren't expecting a trainer to do something like this. 

I think both parties should be clear from the start and shouldn't be afraid to speak up. 

Now, other people correcting my dogs, doesn't fly with me, but I've never really had anyone other than myself correct my dogs so have never been in that situation.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yeah, and the hard part going into a class, is you're not thinking of those kind of things like, how assertive do I need to be with this trainer, or what do I do if this happens kind of stuff. You just want to train your stinking dog and have, you hope, (I hope!) some fun doing it. 

It helps to watch classes and assess your comfort level with what the trainer does if that's possible. 

Even then - I sent an adoptee to a trainer I thought would use motivational methods and she wanted to prong and pop for inattention - SO off base for that dog who couldn't even glance at a person when he first got here, never mind give that long gaze...and I give the adopters huge kudos for refusing. And I won't recommend that trainer now either.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i think the level of a correction depends on the dog
and how it was corrected early in life. i've had 2 trainers
that taught me a correction doesn't have to be harsh.
both trainers taught me to speak in a normal voice
and level when training and correcting. there was
never any yanking and cranking with the leash. a slightly raised
voice was enough of a correction for my dog. a harsh correction
was putting my hand under his chin and looking directly at him
with a raised voice. 

with your correction method how does your dog respond? if your
dog doesn't need a harsh correction to respond tell your trainer.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Thank you all for your replies! It's great to have people with experience share their knowledge.

JakodaCD OA, the trainer corrected him for downing on his sit-stay. He has been trained to do sit-stays for 5-7 minutes with me out of sight. It was quite warm and he just decided that he'd rather lay down. She didn't see him as he went down, when she noticed him down, she said she went over and gave him the correction. I know that she always tells me to let them know why they are being corrected, so I'm sure she told him "sit" when she corrected him.

Yes, he needed corrected, but it just made me feel bad for him when I heard him yelp.

She corrected him once before. It's been quite some time ago, but I was working on heeling and he just wasn't making any effort. She took the lead and told him to heel. When he didn't, she gave him a quick pop that made him yelp, but he got in gear and heeled nicely.

I do have to admit that I'm rather soft. I do know that he does need a firmer correction from me and not a nagging one. When I have given him stronger corrections, he will lean into me at heel position. I talked to her about that and she said that was a good sign, that he wanted to do what was right.

I don't correct him unless I know that he fully understands what I am asking for. There has been a few times when he was learning something new at home and wouldn't do it at group practice. I felt that he needed encouragement to feel confident enough to do it in another context and she would want me to correct him. I may be wrong, but when I train a new behavior, I don't feel that they know it until I have trained it in many different places.

I have a lesson tomorrow. I will see how it goes. I don't have a problem discussing the level of corrections with her. I do like her as a trainer. I guess I get really torn on how to train my dog. So far it has been mostly positive with mild corrections. I do use a clicker when I'm training new behaviors and have been successful with accomplishing my goal. My trainer has the mindset that clickers are for dolphins and that behaviors that are taught using only positive reinforcement, fall apart.

I know it's a decision I have to make. I'm trying to learn how to be a good trainer. 

Freestep, what you wrote about a dog having to learn how to take a correction made sense. I get the feeling that when he's corrected, he's wondering why I would do such a thing to him. Maybe that's what I'm feeling. I just love that dog with all my heart.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Karla said:


> My trainer has the mindset that clickers are for dolphins and that behaviors that are taught using only positive reinforcement, fall apart.


This really cracks me up. It's funny because I've meet a few trainers who have the same mindset. But when you walk into their classroom, what do you hear over and over and over and over and over and OVER??

"Aught! Aught!" "Eh! Eh!" "No!"

Funny that behaviors that are built by constantly telling the dog no seem to, well, fall apart.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

wildo said:


> In my opinion, more important than it being clear to the dog why it is being corrected is being clear and fair to the dog in expectation. Have you kept a training journal? What is your dog's current average duration for out of sight sits? Are you going WAY passed that when she breaks? Have you gradually built up that duration? Keep good records so that you can know where the threshold is. If you leave for 60 secs and the dog has a 30sec threshold and downs after 45 secs, you need to make note of that in your training journal. Work your out of sight sits for 40 secs and immediately come back to reward the dog. There needs to be more value in holding the sit, and if you don't know your dog's threshold for holding that behavior, you are in the dark about knowing how to build the duration. There's absolutely no reason to be issuing a correction on a dog that doesn't have any value in holding the position your asking. Completely unfair to the dog.
> 
> I also initially trained under a heavy-handed trainer. It's good motivation to learn about the other strategies out there that have a bit more respect for the dog as a thinking/conscience being.


In my opinion this entire post is fantastic and training this way may put more fun into 
training.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

> Funny that behaviors that are built by constantly telling the dog no seem to, well, fall apart.


Wildo, thanks for making me laugh!

I trained his sit-stays and down-stays using the method you described. I teach him by rewarding behaviors I like and build on success. I think that is much better than always correcting your dog for what it does wrong. I'm sure my dog thinks it's a lot more fun too!


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Hmm about faking yelps, wouldn't the dogs yelp coz they are unsure and surprised? With the grooming, the dog might find it scary and it's like a human screaming for what seems very scary and could hurt. But then after forcing the grooming, they get to understand that it might not be that bad at all.

With the corrections, it might also be similar, that the dog is not very used to something pinching the neck and it seemed very scary. But then if we force it more times, the dog gets used to it (as in understanding what it is and not being desensitized) and stops overreacting so much. Maybe it's like a human being pinched out of nowhere all of a sudden ("WAAH!"), and then after a few pinches the reaction decreases as it's not much of a surprise anymore.
But of course, this is only if it's more frequent, since if the corrections are not that frequent and only happens once in a while, the reaction would still be of surprise.

But well, this is just an opinion of course, as I have never really seen a dog that actually fakes, so maybe some are actually intelligent enough? Maybe some would even see which humans the fake yelps works and which humans are meaner lol.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

oh my dog fakes lots of things. Like when Rayden was younger I cut a nail too short. I felt horrible and babied him for a long time after that. Then I realized that he wasn't even limping on the same foot and only did it around me. SUCKER!

But I do agree that it was probably surprise, like a kid who gets away with certain behavior with Mom and gets a swat on the behind from Dad. Add in the fact that most GSDs are real drama queens. Another factor, how did you react when you came back into the room? If you were anxious and upset then he would be feeding off of that - it was scary when Mom left me alone. Think of it like a child with a scraped knee. If you are matter of fact "here's a band-aid that will make it all better" they are on their way and back to playing in 2 minutes. If Mom acts upset and dramatic and "oh my gosh are you ok? poor baby" and carries on, then you see a child react with fear and tears and general upset and clinginess.

A correction is nothing to be afraid of as long as it is FAIR. That means that the dog knows what is expected of him (sounds like you have practiced this exercise so CHECK) and that it doesn't cause lasting harm. Before you decide that it was excessive, though, examine your own reaction when you re-entered the room. Also, discuss with your trainer what he was like before you came back in. Was he reluctant to engage? Or did he just carry on and then get tense/upset when he saw you?


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

I don't baby him, but I don't give corrections that make him yelp. He broke the sit and she corrected him and he did what he was supposed to do.


I returned to him in a neutral frame of mind. We moved on to doing something else. When he got near the exit, he pulled in that direction. I knew he wanted his safe place, the car. I told him that we weren't done and continued on. He didn't get reluctant to engage with me. 

It's one thing to have a healthy respect for my trainer, but he shouldn't be trying to avoid her.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My dog is a drama queen-she has never yelped at a correction though--we are actually working on our out of sight stays and I would want someone at least letting me know my dog broke her sit-think its perfectly ok to say I want to correct my dog-if you like other things about the class why leave--during class last week my trainer yelled at me--it did not bother me at all-other trainers have done that and I eventually left--think that I really just enjoy the class and the instructor so its not a big deal


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

sheep said:


> Hmm about faking yelps, wouldn't the dogs yelp coz they are unsure and surprised? With the grooming, the dog might find it scary and it's like a human screaming for what seems very scary and could hurt. But then after forcing the grooming, they get to understand that it might not be that bad at all.


Some dogs will yelp when surprised or unsure of the stimulus, especially when it is something new. But some owners unwittingly "train" their dog to yelp by removing the stimulus when the dog yelps. So they do it as a learned response--I can tell the difference. When a dog starts yelping when I've barely touched him, that's a learned, "pre-emptive" yelp. When I have a 12 week old pup on my table, and a catch a little mat in the comb and the pup yelps, that's surpise or pain. It may or may not be painful, but when the stimulus is new and the dog has no frame of reference for it, he has no idea how long it's going to last or if it's going to get worse... he's not faking when he cries (although some pups are bigger drama queens than others). It does take a little while for the puppy to understand what it means to be brushed, bathed, clipped, etc. and he may cry at certain points until he learns and understands that any discomfort is going to be fleeting. The more he is desensitized to it, the better he behaves, and eventually he'll tolerate something that is briefly uncomfortable because he knows it'll be over in a second.



> Maybe it's like a human being pinched out of nowhere all of a sudden ("WAAH!"), and then after a few pinches the reaction decreases as it's not much of a surprise anymore.


Exactly.



> But well, this is just an opinion of course, as I have never really seen a dog that actually fakes, so maybe some are actually intelligent enough? Maybe some would even see which humans the fake yelps works and which humans are meaner lol.


Yes, they are smart about who it works with, and who it doesn't work with! I have a lot of clients who can't do things to their dogs at home, that I can do in the shop no problem. One client has to chase down, catch, sit on, and fight with her screaming Mini Poodle just to put medication in her ears. The medication doesn't hurt or sting, it's simply an antibacterial/antifungal solution that helps keep the ear dry and healthy. When the poodle comes to me, I put the stuff in her ears and she doesn't even move. But it's a big dramatic scene when her owner does it at home! It's rather humorous to me, as it shows a dog's intelligence and how they can have their owner totally buffaloed.  It happens all the time--I could go on and on with examples, like the Aussie who needed four people to hold him down at the Vet's office just to do his nails... while I popped him up on my table and clipped the nails on all four feet with barely a flinch.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

I had a talk with my trainer yesterday and all is well. 

She doesn't think Timber is a soft dog at all, but a good manipulator. A good correction is something new to him. I have been too easy going with him. I agree that one good correction is better than a thousand nagging corrections. 

I want to be a good trainer for my dog and for me to be successful as an obedience competitor, I need Timber to be reliable. For the most part, he works well for me; but then he has his times where he just isn't making the effort. So, if it's a behavior that I know he knows, then he will learn that he will get a correction. When he complies, he will be rewarded and praised. 

She said she was wishy-washy with her first dog. Nobody wants to hurt their dog. 
I think that's probably the most difficult thing for a new trainer to learn to do. The timing and level of correction needs to fit the offense.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I'm glad she was understanding and everything is better now.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You know, I have dogs that trick me from time to time and I applaud them for their craftiness. 

There are so many ways to go about looking at a situation. 

Dog needs to be reliable and make an effort. Do I do it first by trying corrections and getting what I want or do I do it first by trying to work on relationship and getting the dog to do what I want and then if that doesn't work (when I know they know what I want) trying corrections? I like to go the second way and generally don't have to use corrections after that. Clear communication from me about what I want can happen without a correction. Takes more of my brain power and I admit to shortcutting it (hey, you can stop a puppy from doing things by picking them up and moving them!)! But when I really want a behavior to stick...that's what I know I need to do - go the relationship route and see what happens. 

Cooperation and relationship: Articles | Suzanne Clothier so many great articles to read. Working together as a team is the goal. I don't like the whole stimulus response kind of thing and do like to work on the relationship. Because if they are smart enough to manipulate, don't they deserve to be treated as smarter than a pigeon trying to get seed?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Karla said:


> She doesn't think Timber is a soft dog at all, but a good manipulator.


Ah, she may have a point. But he can be both soft AND manipulative. I know a lot of dogs that are this way--I call it "submissive manipulation". The dog simply rolls over when he doesn't want to do something, and of course the owners will generally throw up their hands at that point, and the dog has learned how to get away with something. Soft, yet stubborn. 

I once had a husky client who was that way. Every time I'd lead him to the tub, he'd simply glue himself to the floor, making submissive squishy-faces, wagging his tail, and licking my hands. At first, I'd simply scoop him up and lift him into the tub, since he wasn't very heavy. But at a certain point, I got tired of doing that, as I KNEW he could jump--there was nothing wrong with him, I'd seen him jump into his owner's car. 

So, one day I simply pulled his head up and encouraged him to jump. He didn't want to, and let himself hang limply from his collar. After a few seconds, he started getting uncomfortable as he realized he was choking himself.  He struggled against it for a moment, then had a flash of canine clarity, and jumped upward toward the pressure instead of pulling away from it, and landed beautifully in the tub. He got glorious praise, of course. After that, he would not only jump into the tub, he would see the tub, get a running start, and LEAP into it!

Nowadays I have a ramp for the tub, so it's a lot easier, but I still have dogs (Goldens mostly) that simply crumple when asked to walk up the ramp... Now, I am not going to lift a cringing 80 lb. sack of potatoes when I know the dog can perfectly well walk up a ramp. It does take some pressure, but the dog will learn to do it, and do it quite happily, once he realizes that his "submissive manipulation" isn't going to work. 

Still, with a soft dog like this, I'm not going to over-correct, as the dog may simply shut down.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

> Dog needs to be reliable and make an effort. Do I do it first by trying corrections and getting what I want or do I do it first by trying to work on relationship and getting the dog to do what I want and then if that doesn't work (when I know they know what I want) trying corrections? I like to go the second way and generally don't have to use corrections after that. Clear communication from me about what I want can happen without a correction. Takes more of my brain power and I admit to shortcutting it (hey, you can stop a puppy from doing things by picking them up and moving them!)! But when I really want a behavior to stick...that's what I know I need to do - go the relationship route and see what happens.


I've read books by Suzanne Clothier, Patricia McConnell, Morgan Spector, Pat Miller, Melissa Alexander, Jean Donaldson, etc. 

I have trained him using positive reinforcement and this is why I'm having a conflict with the use of corrections. Timber and I have a wonderful working relationship and I wouldn't want to damage that in any way. I've had judges tell me that I have a nice working dog. He's confident and shows enjoyment of his work. 

I've had people tell me that you can't get a reliable retrieve without corrections. I disagreed and clicker trained the retrieve. He loves to retrieve. 

All behaviors that I've taught so far are reliable. Why? Because they have been rewarded over and over again and behaviors that have been positively reinforced, get repeated. He's not working to avoid a correction. 

Timber has a RE and CDX title trained with positive reinforcement. We're now training for a UD title and I didn't plan on doing things any different than I already have. Am I dreaming?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

just because you use a correction doesn't mean your dog will be working to avoid a correction.

it's a form of communication like anything else. when you learn how to use it and you find yourself in a situation where it could be used, you're not limited in what you can do.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Sounds like you're one the right track, Karla! Train the way YOU want to train, and that YOU believe in. If your instructor doesn't share those philosophies, find a new instructor. Don't buy into the rhetoric that you must use corrections in order to get results. With your RE and CDX, you already know that's BS. Train the way that you want to train- it's your dog!


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Thank you! I appreciate all your replies!

What it comes down to is training the way I feel comfortable. There are so many methods and tools out there and you just have to find out what works for you and your dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And don't get stuck on certain methods....dogs progress or regress depending on what they are learning. Best to stay consistent, yet know when it's time to change it up.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Karla said:


> What it comes down to is training the way I feel comfortable. There are so many methods and tools out there and you just have to find out what works for you and your dog.


Precisely. It can be so overwhelming with all the different theories and methods, and everyone seems to think that one way is the ONLY way. Some are so adamant that their method is right and everyone else is wrong (not only wrong, but downright EVIL), that you simply can't work with those people if you have differing methods or philosophies. 

IMO, you have to be flexible and find what works for each individual dog. Some dogs need corrections and will actually try harder after getting a correction. Others will fold up and shut down. So you really have to know your dog, know what works, and use it. It's always good to be open to new ideas, but you should always go with your gut.

It broke my heart to do a force-fetch with one of my GSDs. She had a beautiful, enthusiastic retrieve, but I was told that it was absolutely necessary to do the force-fetch tecnique for it to be truly reliable. I watched her lose her love and enthusiasm for the dumbbell during the force training, but gradually, eventually, it came back when she realized that all she had to do to avoid an ear pinch was to do that thing she loved doing anyway. So even though I was reluctant, it actually turned out okay. 

However, I often wonder if I really HAD to do that force fetch, or if she would have gotten her CDX just fine without it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The force retrieve is old school....yet some dogs need to know there is pressure if they don't do it reliably. Some dogs will retrieve _the_ scented(hot)spoon no problem, no pressure in the training. 

I also taught my dog a forced retrieve(IPO), but we tried other methods before going to that. He runs out for it just fine, but bringing it back, he lacks speed and enthusiasm. He won't out it for another toy either to encourage speed back. Holding it is his safe spot. I wish I'd trained it differently or when he was younger.


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## Karla (Dec 14, 2010)

Freestep, I think you would have been just fine without the ear pinch; but I'm glad it turned out ok for you in the end. 

A lot of people think that corrections or ear pinches are necessary because they all 'get to the point when they choose not to retrieve and they need to know that it's not a choice.'
Well, corrections or not, they always have a choice to make.

Onyx' girl, I'm teaching scent discrimination (metal articles) with the clicker and he's doing well with it.

I also have to ask if the forced retrieve solved your problem? Why do you wish you had trained it differently?

Timber didn't know how to retrieve until I introduced the dumbbell. He was probably about 4 years old at the time. He had no interest in retrieving balls, sticks or anything. I started off clicking for him even glancing at the dumbbell and went from there. He now thinks it's a fun game.


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