# You may not like this... Kira grew a pair.



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Well, it happened. Kira grew a pair of B*lls, and set someone straight. It wasn't invited, but some people are pseudoswearing and ask for it.

Here's what happened...

I live near a local park. It's a waterfront park, with trails, benches, and lots of places to go for a bike ride or walk.
Within this park, are two designated areas for dog parks.

In this dog park, there's a GSD that's harassed Kira on a regular basis. Her owner would generally downplay it as "only dogs", and they'll work it out. She's taken a few snips at Kira for no reason.

A few days ago, I made a firm decision not to put Kira in that dog park anymore.

SOOOO, here I am walking with Kira along a path, and here comes the "snippy GSD dog" with the owner. He walks towards me, and lets out his retractable lead. The guy knows that Kira is timid, and IMO, was asking for trouble.

Here comes this barking dog, with her owner leading his dog right into Kira's face.
Well.... My baby girl raised her hacks, charged the on coming dog, and set her straight. It happened so fast, I couldn't have prevented it.

Kira wasn't having nay part of that dog anymore, and as much as you may not like how I feel, I'm happy for her. She needed to get in touch with her canine side.
She may not have acted this way is she were loose in the dog park. I felt as if being restricted on the leash, forced her hand.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Congratulations, you finally got the dog you have always wanted.

What are you going to do when she encounters a dog that is way more bad ass than her.

The way you go against advice it will happen.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yep.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Very much don't like. Scary.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So, the how to answer an ignoramus with a dog, is to better him at his own game? 

If his dog needed veterinary care, you can be liable. 

If the next dog your dog _needs_ to attack needs veterinary care you will be liable. 

I am sorry this happened. Your dog is now fear-aggressive. She did not grow a pair of testicles. Her hair/hackles were up, common fear response. She lunged and attacked because she knew she could not get away and she did not trust you to protect her.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Congratulations, you finally got the dog you have always wanted.
> 
> What are you going to do when she encounters a dog that is way more bad ass than her.
> 
> The way you go against advice it will happen.


I don't appreciate your comments. It's not the dog I always wanted.

Go against advice? Please tell me HOW going for a WALK in a park is going against advice?????

I'd really like to hear what it is that I did so wrong.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Well, it is sad that she apparently was a friendly dog and that this other dog was permitted to harass her on so many occasions that she felt as if she had to defend herself. This is exactly how serious dog aggression issues start. One of my dogs (the one who is a rescue) came to me as an older puppy and already had this issue. No fun at all-when you can't even pass another dog on a walk without your dog acting like a complete psycho trying to attack another dog who is walking along on the sidewalk across the street from you-make sure you repost and let us know how much you enjoy it when it happens.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Fear agression at its best. The most confident response would be to ignore the snippy dog if it was not a genuine threat (actually my male throws calming signals at them or turns away or even just blows them off completely) and, if she was a true threat, for you to protect her.

The best way to approach an iffy situation with a fearful dog is to have eyes in the back of your head and do something to occupy the dog until the situation passes - such as obedience and avoid the contact altogether. She needs to learn in a controlled setting with confident adult dogs how to be a confident dog..............


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What I see that is wrong is to be proud of letting your dog get into an altercation with another dog. You saw them approaching, you should have taken evasive action because your dog is intimidated by the other dog. If my dog got into it with another dog for any reason, I would be mortified, and apologetic, not proud. And when you have a dog that is softer or has weak nerves, timid, shy, you have to manage the environment so that she is safe and gains confidence, is not overwhelmed, so that a bad situation does not happen.

Every negative incident involving GSDs is bad for all of us.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Maybe you're not understanding the post. We were walking, and another dog charged HER!
There was NO place to go and hide. It's a 5 foot walkway at most, and people go for casual walks along these paths all day. The owner of the other dog let out his dog's lead. I just stood there, ready to pull his dog off Kira. I froze.
What do you think should have happened in that case?

She is NOT aggressive, and soon after, passed a half dozen more dogs on the paths, without incident.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I think all of you missed the part where this other dog went right up into her face B.A.R.K.I.N.G! A dog that used to harrass her before. 



> *In this dog park, there's a GSD that's harassed Kira on a regular basis.* Her owner would generally downplay it as "only dogs", and they'll work it out. She's taken a few snips at Kira for no reason.
> 
> A few days ago, I made a firm decision not to put Kira in that dog park anymore.
> 
> ...


If she was on a leash it was a totally normal reaction. Don't do as if it was something completely out of the blue. 

A dog on the leash, driven into a corner by a dog that used to regularly harass her and is now perceived as a threat because he's going right into her face, barking... only knows one way out and that is going into defense. 

Also, from experience most of the time it does go faster than you can react.

He actually FOLLOWED advise by not taking her to the dog park anymore. How is that going against advise? And stuff like that happens so fast that usually you can't react. That is why it is so important to learn reading dogs and he is a novice at that. So give him a break!


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

i just read this and cringed. if you see them again, get some space between the two of you and hope that she's quiet when she sees that dog. be proud if she's quiet, not if she goes into a tizzy, cuz THAT'S what you should want from your dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anthony8858 said:


> Well, it happened. Kira grew a pair of B*lls, and set someone straight. It wasn't invited, but some people are pseudoswearing and ask for it.
> 
> Here's what happened...
> 
> ...


I guess maybe this is why I mis understood. It sounds like your girl hackled, charged, and set the other dog straight. His dog was in Kira's face, and barking. Barking is often an invitation to romp or play. It sounds like your dog is fearful and being leashed responded out of her fear because she could not get away. Not sure why your dog is fearful, either genetic, or lacking in socialization, but now you have a fear-aggressive dog and if another dog is up close and personal, you have a real liability.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I think all of you missed the part where this other dog went right up into her face B.A.R.K.I.N.G! A dog that used to harrass her before.
> 
> If she was on a leash it was a totally normal reaction. Don't do as if it was something totally out of the blue.
> 
> ...


The OP could have prevented the whole thing by taking his dog off the path and not passing this dog with such close proximity to begin with, especially since this dog has a history of bullying his dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Kira wasn't having nay part of that dog anymore, and as much as you may not like how I feel, I'm happy for her. She needed to get in touch with her canine side.
> She may not have acted this way is she were loose in the dog park. I felt as if being restricted on the leash, forced her hand.


You're happy that you have a fear-aggressive dog? It makes me sad that she was put in a position where she felt she had to defend herself. Is this some kind of macho thing, that you want your dog to be tough? 

Come back and tell us how happy you are when she does this to every dog she meets from now on.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I think all of you missed the part where this other dog went right up into her face B.A.R.K.I.N.G! A dog that used to harrass her before.
> 
> If she was on a leash it was a totally normal reaction. Don't do as if it was something completely out of the blue.
> 
> ...


Apparently you understand what transpired.

We were BOTH cornered. Not sure what many of you expect to happen in that situation.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Maybe you're not understanding the post. We were walking, and another dog charged HER!
> There was NO place to go and hide. It's a 5 foot walkway at most, and people go for casual walks along these paths all day. The owner of the other dog let out his dog's lead. I just stood there, ready to pull his dog off Kira. I froze.
> What do you think should have happened in that case?
> 
> She is NOT aggressive, and soon after, passed a half dozen more dogs on the paths, without incident.


This response is a perfect example of you not listening.

Has anyone agreed with your actions. *NO*.

You defend them and go right on.

Carmen took time to write you a book. You should read it and apply it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The OP could have prevented the whole thing by taking his dog off the path and not passing this dog with such close proximity to begin with, especially since this dog has a history of bullying his dog.


Yep. Yep. Yep.
Repeat OVER AND OVER.
Protect your dog. Don't force her to be afraid and attack out of fear.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds to me like Kira was fearful of this one dog because he's picked on her before. Sure, best case scenario would have been for Anthony to cross the street or do a 180 when he saw the other owner giving his bully of a dog more slack on its leash so it could charge up to Kira, but maybe he wasn't able to because of other people around or maybe he was thinking about work and it didn't occur to him. 

Either way, I don't think that one instance of Kira standing up to a dog that has picked on her before and was charging towards her on a flexi leash means she is going to be fearful and dog aggressive for the rest of her life.


Anthony, maybe try to look a little farther down the road when you're walking your dog? Kira, good on you for making the best of a bad situation.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Well I smiled and thought "Go Kira!". 

Sure, maybe not the behavior any of us want for our dogs, but Kira had been harassed by this dog before and it seems like the other dogs owner didn't help the situations any.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The OP could have prevented the whole thing by taking his dog off the path and not passing this dog with such close proximity to begin with, especially since this dog has a history of bullying his dog.


Not if the other dog is on a retractable lead. It sounds like he did not even have the time to do that. That is why so many people hate those retractable leads in the first place.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Anthony8858 said:


> Apparently you understand what transpired.
> 
> We were BOTH cornered. Not sure what many of you expect to happen in that situation.


You put the dog behind you, step in front, bend over and yell "NO!!! GET OUT OF HERE!!!" to the oncoming dog.
I guarantee you'll piss the owner off and maybe even succeed in him making sure his dog isn't harassing anyone.
Do you _want_ your puppy putting herself in harm's way because you're not protecting her??

Because as others said, it's all fun and games until another dog comes along who will not back down.
You set her up to fail over and over and over


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

So in that case, step in front of your dog. Show your dog that you will make the attempt to do things that they will not have to do on their own. Because once that seed is planted...I don't think that's ever a good thing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Not if the other dog is on a retractable lead. It sounds like he did not even have the time to do that. That is why so many people hate those retractable leads in the first place.


Yes he could. He could have stepped in front and yelled at the dog - and owner.
That's what I'd have done with my puppy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maybe he couldn't have avoided it--it just makes me sad, and bewildered that OP is HAPPY and PROUD of his puppy's behavior, describing it as "growing a pair".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Yep. Yep. Yep.
> Repeat OVER AND OVER.
> Protect your dog. Don't force her to be afraid and attack out of fear.


Again, retractable lead. Not sure if you ever encountered a dog on a long retractable lead that is so fast at you that you have nowhere else to go because the owner is not holding them back, instead giving them more room.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I think all of you missed the part where this other dog went right up into her face B.A.R.K.I.N.G! A dog that used to harrass her before.


Didn't miss it, just would have handled it much differently and have. I would have acted like my dogs protector and would have done one of several options:

1) Told rude owner with rude dog NOT to let his dog approach

2) Turned and walked away or steppped off the path as far as I could (yes, I've walked through mud, over ice or other gross situations to avoid an issue with another dog)

3) if 1 or 2 doesn't work, body block, scare the dog off and generally SHOW my scared dog that I will keep them safe and they don't need to defend themself


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> You're happy that you have a fear-aggressive dog? It makes me sad that she was put in a position where she felt she had to defend herself. Is this some kind of macho thing, that you want your dog to be tough?
> 
> Come back and tell us how happy you are when she does this to every dog she meets from now on.


couldn't agree with this more. chobahn has weak nerves...it sucks...but i manage it. when he was a puppy i was walking him early in the morning before work and when we rounded the corner and approached the park a big GSD (that was off leash mind you) came running over to us. i didn't see the darn thing and before i knew it, chobahn was on the ground screaming because this dog just overtook him completely. i was HORRIFIED! it happened so quickly, but i felt so bad that i didn't see it and that i wasn't able to protect him. i'm pretty sure after i got over the shock of it i cried because i felt terrible that i let him down. you better believe ever since that happend i have eyeballs in the front, sides and back of my head so something like this doesn't happen again. i know my situation is a little different, but it just makes me cringe that the feeling at the end of this situation was happiness. meh.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So in that case, step in front of your dog. Show your dog that you will make the attempt to do things that they will not have to do on their own. Because once that seed is planted...I don't think that's ever a good thing.


I agree with Jean. We are our dogs advocates and we should be proactive to manage the situations they are placed in. That way the don't feel like they need to be "on guard" all the time, because their handler has their back, this builds the confidence in the dog as well.

The book Calming signals;On Talking terms with Dogs by Turid Rugaas and her DVD on the subject of dog communication should be read by all. Not to say we can control every situation that is placed in front of us, but staying on top of what lies ahead will help.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Yes he could. He could have stepped in front and yelled at the dog - and owner.
> That's what I'd have done with my puppy.


Maybe OP was so startled that he didn't think of it. Happens to the best of us. Sometimes things happen way too fast as if you could have reacted. 

You can't always be perfect in every kind of situation. We can only TRY to be perfect but the fact is, (I need better words) HAPPENS!

It just happens. Again, things happen to the best of us. Indras leash slipped through my hands when I let her out of the car because she saw another dog coming around the corner. She was half a year old. It went so darn fast I couldn't even react... it just happened. She was barking at that woman and the sheltie. Every dog owner is a hypocrite and a liar if they say that nothing ever happened in all those years they owned dogs that went so darn fast and they could not react at that moment. It happens to every single one of us at least once!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Not if the other dog is on a retractable lead. It sounds like he did not even have the time to do that. That is why so many people hate those retractable leads in the first place.


I do hate retractable leashes and I have a neighbor who walks her huge dog with one-a dog that has knocked her over, broke her arm and got loose from her before. My dogs hate this dog and anyhow I see this lady coming toward me so I quickly turn my dogs around and go in the opposite direction. I get home from the walk and the impudent woman is right by my front yard but on the sidewalk. My dog aggressive boy is going crazy and her dog is tugging towards mine and I had come to a complete stop at the side of my lawn far away from her giving plenty of space for her to pass by. What do you know her dog lunges towards mine and she accidentally hits the release button on the retractable leash and the dog comes flying toward my dogs-good thing I had stopped and waited FAR back from them-because I had anticipated something like this could happen. Anyhow nothing happened-the leash extended all the way right there in my yard but I had wisely kept my distance. She finally got control of her dog and I stayed put until she was safely down the block. When you know another owner is an idiot you have to do whatever it takes to protect your dog-even if it requires acting like your dogs haven't "grown a pair" by keeping them far away from oncoming trouble.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Maybe he couldn't have avoided it--it just makes me sad, and bewildered that OP is HAPPY and PROUD of his puppy's behavior, describing it as "growing a pair".


Oh I get it.. I should have been happy and proud that she got pinned, and went home with a few holes in her neck.

Kira was next to me, walking at heel. 
It's a narrow walkway, surrounded by trees, and very little space to run. It happened in a flash. I had no reaction time.

Walking my dog in a park, is not setting up to fail.

And finally, I'd bet 99 out of 100 people would NOT get in front of a charging GSD. nor would they have the time to react.
PLUS, and GSD runs a lot faster than I do.

Sorry folks, I'm not a dog expert. I didn't have the knowledge to protect my dog.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

So what would be the best reaction if you are walking your dog and two loose dogs come barreling up to you barking and growling? You put yourself between your dog and the loose dogs, but your dog puts himself between you and the other dogs? Now what?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Oh I get it.. I should have been happy and proud that she got pinned, and went home with a few holes in her neck.


Are you deliberately being obtuse? No, you should not be happy that she got attacked. You should not be happy and proud that your puppy was forced to fight to defend herself. You shouldn't be happy about any of it. It's one thing if you honestly had no time to react--I'll give you that. It's disturbing that you are happy and proud that this happened.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

two dogs? you say a prayer! but if your dog chooses to step in front of you i'm assuming that's not a nervy dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

idahospud49 said:


> So what would be the best reaction if you are walking your dog and two loose dogs come barreling up to you barking and growling? You put yourself between your dog and the loose dogs, but your dog puts himself between you and the other dogs? Now what?


If you live in an area where there are loose dogs at all, mace or bear spray is a must have. Either than or a pocket protector.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Maybe OP was so startled that he didn't think of it. Happens to the best of us. Sometimes things happen way too fast as if you could have reacted.


Oddly, my dog's safety is utmost in my mind at all times. 
Just like my child, I'd put myself in harm's way to keep them safe - instinctively. I'd never have to stop and think about it!


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Emoore said:


> If you live in an area where there are loose dogs at all, mace or bear spray is a must have. Either than or a pocket protector.


We have four loose dogs.... Two are "usuals" and while annoying to have around, because they like to taunt Glock when I have him on leash, they are super sweet. There are two others that only show up a few times a month and have once come running up barking and growling at us. I am tempted to get mace!!!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

idahospud49 said:


> So what would be the best reaction if you are walking your dog and two loose dogs come barreling up to you barking and growling? You put yourself between your dog and the loose dogs, but your dog puts himself between you and the other dogs? Now what?


I had that situation. I had four dogs on the leash and two loose dogs came at us. Harrassing mine. It is NOT easy to fight them off while you are trying to manage four dogs on the leash. Thankfully mine didn't attempt going at them but boy did they pull at that moment. I was yelling from the top of my lungs that the entire neighborhood looked out of the window and literally kicked them off and trying to keep them at a distance with my yelling. 

If there is one weapon I have it is the sheer Volume of my voice and so far it has worked. To keep two loose dogs off of mine and to scare off a pit bull that was going at Nala. 

HOWEVER, I would not advise that to everybody. It can be dangerous. But sometimes it's either you or a disaster waiting to happen. 

Honestly, if something had happened that day with mine and those two dogs. I would have not put myself in between. I love my dogs but not as much that I put myself between six dogs fighting.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

idahospud49 said:


> We have four loose dogs.... Two are "usuals" and while annoying to have around, because they like to taunt Glock when I have him on leash, they are super sweet. There are two others that only show up a few times a month and have once come running up barking and growling at us. I am tempted to get mace!!!!


I would absolutely get mace in this situation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Now we have growling going on? 

Well, the thing is, we are humans. We stand much taller than dogs. Not sure if that matters. But if me and my dog are charged by two loose dogs, I would do my best to get in front of my dog and use my height and my voice and even my feet if necessary to encourage the other dogs to get away. I am the leader. I do not expect my dogs to protect me from other dogs. So far, we've been ok. But then, I do keep a wary eye on my surrounding, and avoid trouble for the most part. The closest I have come to this situation was walking my dog past a house with two loose dogs. I think they had an invisible fence but as they were charging, I jumped in front and yelled so they could hear me in their house, "GO HOME!!!" Sure enough the people inside came out and called the dogs and nobody got pinned or bitten.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Oddly, my dog's safety is utmost in my mind at all times.
> Just like my child, I'd put myself in harm's way to keep them safe - instinctively. I'd never have to stop and think about it!


But you can't put your standard on everybody else. Not everybody has that instinct. Some people have to learn it.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Hindsight is always 20/20. And I personally know how fast things can happen, before you even know how to react. I don't think Kira is going to be fear aggressive because of this one incident. She may be afraid of this dog, but it doesn't necessarily mean she'll be afraid of all dogs.

So now you know that if this happens again to put yourself in front of Kira to protect her and maybe the other dog's owner will think twice about letting his dog rush other dogs.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Folks unless Ive missed something Anthony wasnt' in the dog park w/ Kira,he was walking a path in a large metro area where people walk. Anthony I understand not wanting your dog to picked on or submissive to the point they cant defend themselves. The problem is in today's society it does not take much for a dog to find themselves listed as dangerous or for home owners insurance to become an issue even if its not on your property. I always read your posts b/c I learn from them . You have done a wonderful job w/ her training from your reports and she is a beautiful youngster.Daisy as a puppy and as young dog was very happy go lucky however the combination of several bad dog experiences and my poor training allowed a bad experience to become her pattern of behavior.Kira stood up for herself and hopefully this is a one time only incidient. The reaction does sound reactive or fear based so its not really being assertive.I also will say despite my lacking expertise she is a puppy. I have to say that when called to deal w/ an idiot owner and a aggressive dog Im not sure I would give the right signals. My experiences w/ Daisy and Dodger put me in the idiot owner slot. I grabbed collars used what would be censored language and carted my dogs to the car and then returned to apologize . Ok reading all this and other posts Is dog socialization a good idea? Two, How do you find the right ones to play w/? Kira has had some bad experiences w/ this GSD but hasnt she had alot more good experiences? Doesnt that make a difference?i was wondering Anthony if your trainer could come to meet you and Kira when your out and about w/ Kira and help you learn how to intervene before it gets to that point. My experience bears more to the other dogs position so I knew Daisy on leash is very different w/ other dogs on leash then she is off.Its just a thought.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I had that situation. I had four dogs on the leash and two loose dogs came at us. Harrassing mine. It is NOT easy to fight them off while you are trying to manage four dogs on the leash. Thankfully mine didn't attempt going at them but boy did they pull at that moment. I was yelling from the top of my lungs that the entire neighborhood looked out of the window and literally kicked them off and trying to keep them at a distance with my yelling.
> 
> If there is one weapon I have it is the sheer Volume of my voice and so far it has worked. To keep two loose dogs off of mine and to scare off a pit bull that was going at Nala.
> 
> ...


That would definitely be a scary situation!! A dog fight can be bad enough, but when there are that many dogs...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

What I don't get is that everybody expects a dog owner to be perfect in every second of the day. You don't give anyone room to learn. 

How do kids learn? They learn from mistakes. If you haven't been around dogs your entire life you've got to learn it as an adult. And how do we learn? We LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES!

This happened once. I doubt it'll happen a second time because now he knows what to watch out for. So let the man learn!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs. K. 
The people on here have spent hours, pages and pages typing advice to Anthony and he consistently does just what they warn him against. (And then say "ah she finally grew a pair!" as if taking pride in her reaction.) 
If he was completely new here, I'm sure they (and I) would be more tolerant of this latest mistake.
Park or no park. I'm sure there's things that could have been done, and should be done in the future to prevent this type thing.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> What I don't get is that everybody expects a dog owner to be perfect in every second of the day. You don't give anyone room to learn.
> 
> How do kids learn? They learn from mistakes. If you haven't been around dogs your entire life you've got to learn it as an adult. And how do we learn? We LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES!
> 
> This happened once. I doubt it'll happen a second time because now he knows what to watch out for. So let the man learn!


Agreed. Not only that, but we cannot control the actions of people around us. If we could I would NEVER be stuck behind someone going the speed limit!!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Hindsight is always 20/20. And I personally know how fast things can happen, before you even know how to react. I don't think Kira is going to be fear aggressive because of this one incident. She may be afraid of this dog, but it doesn't necessarily mean she'll be afraid of all dogs.
> 
> So now you know that if this happens again to put yourself in front of Kira to protect her and maybe the other dog's owner will think twice about letting his dog rush other dogs.


Exactly this. :thumbup:


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Hindsight is always 20/20. And I personally know how fast things can happen, before you even know how to react. I don't think Kira is going to be fear aggressive because of this one incident. She may be afraid of this dog, but it doesn't necessarily mean she'll be afraid of all dogs.
> 
> So now you know that if this happens again to put yourself in front of Kira to protect her and maybe the other dog's owner will think twice about letting his dog rush other dogs.


Ah, a voice of reason. How refreshing.

She's a lover, not a fighter.

IMO, she merely stopped that dog from charging, instead of running and hiding. Yes, I'm proud of her.
I understand what your concerns are... but I think there's a difference between fear aggressive, and submissive fear. 

I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve the verbal onslaught that some of you threw at me.
Yes, carmen wrote me a book, and I'm grateful, and took her advice.
There was nothing wrong with going for a leashed walk in a park.

I took her advice, and made sure she didn't go into the fenced area, where dogs are off leash.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Mrs. K.
> The people on here have spent hours, pages and pages typing advice to Anthony and he consistently does just what they warn him against. (And then say "ah she finally grew a pair!" as if taking pride in her reaction.)
> If he was completely new here, I'm sure they (and I) would be more tolerant of this latest mistake.
> Park or no park. I'm sure there's things that could have been done, and should be done in the future to prevent this type thing.


He has just come around and followed the advise not to go into the dog park anymore. Didn't you read the last topic where he was listening and following advise and actually asked questions how to go further in her training, where Carmen has given valuable, valuable advise? 

He was actually trying to do the right thing. 

So he used the wrong wording. It's a guy thing. So what? Don't hang yourself up on those three or four words.


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## Razzle J.Dazzle (Sep 8, 2011)

Anthony, what did you do after she went after the other dog? Did you have to separate them or did they stop on their own?


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> What I don't get is that everybody expects a dog owner to be perfect in every second of the day. You don't give anyone room to learn.
> 
> How do kids learn? They learn from mistakes. If you haven't been around dogs your entire life you've got to learn it as an adult. And how do we learn? We LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES!
> 
> This happened once. I doubt it'll happen a second time because now he knows what to watch out for. So let the man learn!


I just want to quote this because it needs to be quoted. 

Things happen, not always by the book. We screw up, we sometimes are proud of things we shouldn't. My daughter punched a boy in the nose in 3rd grade after he punched her in the stomach. Da*m right I was proud... was it right to be proud? No. But I was. Since someone else used protecting our children as an example  

Anthony could have done it different, but it didn't happen that way. Sometimes that happens.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I've seen the videos and read this OP's posts in the past. His female seems to have nerve issues and has been attacked by other dogs. From that video he posted a couple days ago, she seems to want to avoid a fight and lay down than fight.

I can kind of see where the OP is coming from being proud his dog stood up for herself. Speaking from a guys standpoint, I can see not wanting a dog yelping in fear as a dog runs at her - play or not - it's a pride thing. This dog has been bullied before by the other GSD and he was proud she stood up for herself. 

The problem I see with this way of thinking is dogs are not humans. Dogs don't have pride like humans do. He's feeling pride when this happened, but Kira was scared and reacted.

Was this situation handled correctly by Anthony? No, not how I would have handled the situation. I would have gotten out of the way of the dog and it's retractable leash and would never have allowed this to happen. 

It also seems a lot of Kira's bad behavior has been happening around loose or off leash dogs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time she was attacked was at an off leash beach. He continues to go to dog parks and Kira seems to pick up more bad behaviors. Now she's reacting to other dogs which is probably going to get worse in the long run.

Anthony, my advice is to start making better decisions with Kira. Hindsight, you're proud that Kira stood up for herself, but she shouldn't have to be put in those situations where she has the opportunity to react. You need to start setting her up for success.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Mrs. K.
> The people on here have spent hours, pages and pages typing advice to Anthony *and he consistently does just what they warn him against*. (And then say "ah she finally grew a pair!" as if taking pride in her reaction.)
> If he was completely new here, I'm sure they (and I) would be more tolerant of this latest mistake.
> Park or no park. I'm sure there's things that could have been done, and should be done in the future to prevent this type thing.


I would like for you to back up your comment.

I've gone as far as printing out some of the advice given, and it's helped me in ways that I never would have accomplished on my own.

Constantly does what people warn me against, is a direct hit for me.

Let's show me where I've done this.

If you back this up, then I'd be willing to rescind my membership, and no longer post to these boards.

I've learned, and I've shared what I've learned with other new dog owners.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I haven't kept track of this poster and dog outside this thread, where Carmen wrote the book and what advice was taken and what advice was not taken. I am just going by the way the original post was described.

I think it got a strong response, and that he expected it to or he would not have said in the title, "You may not like this..." but it got a strong response because of the attitude that comes across of being glad that a young submissive dog had to protect herself. 

It makes us upset because it CAN lead to serious problems none of which are likely to end well for the dog. There have been situations were dogs have been put to sleep for dog-dog aggression, which is terribly sad. Giving a dog up to a shelter is almost always a PTS deal because no one wants a dog that will attack other people's dogs. And if someone sues the OP for his dog's actions, he is going to have to make serious decisions, sometimes our hands would be tied because our home loans require that we carry insurance on the home. One lawsuit can make that impossible if the dog is kept. 

Now I realize that that is a worse case scenario, but hearing someone flippantly say, she grew a pair, is going to set our hair on edge, and that is the reason, at least for me.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I've seen the videos and read this OP's posts in the past. His female seems to have nerve issues and has been attacked by other dogs. From that video he posted a couple days ago, she seems to want to avoid a fight and lay down than fight.
> 
> I can kind of see where the OP is coming from being proud his dog stood up for herself. Speaking from a guys standpoint, I can see not wanting a dog yelping in fear as a dog runs at her - play or not - it's a pride thing. This dog has been bullied before by the other GSD and he was proud she stood up for herself.
> 
> ...


Thanks Paul. I agree with your assessment. She was attacked in the past, and did have fear issues. I live on the beach, and a walking distance from a state owned park. There are its of dog owners in my area. Impossible to avoid other dogs. Off leash laws allow til 9am. After that, only in designated areas.

I felt that I did set her up for success, by walking with her in the trails (on leash), and avoiding the dog park. This was a random chance encounter, with a dog owner that frequents the dog park.

There was no contact between the dogs. I was proud that she didn't run, and nothing happened. Maybe my choice of words played a role in the reactions of some.
If I would have said.... GSD barking and charged Kira, and she barked back, and dog stopped charging, would it have been better?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> I just want to quote this because it needs to be quoted.
> 
> Things happen, not always by the book. We screw up, we sometimes are proud of things we shouldn't. My daughter punched a boy in the nose in 3rd grade after he punched her in the stomach. Da*m right I was proud... was it right to be proud? No. But I was. Since someone else used protecting our children as an example
> 
> Anthony could have done it different, but it didn't happen that way. Sometimes that happens.


True.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Razzle J.Dazzle said:


> Anthony, what did you do after she went after the other dog? Did you have to separate them or did they stop on their own?


 Anthony what did happen?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Ending on a good note.

No contact was made. Kira simply barked back, and stopped the other dog from advancing on her.
If she didn't do that, I can be 100% certain that she would have gotten pinned again.

I was walking in the park, mind our business.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> Thanks Paul. I agree with your assessment. She was attacked in the past, and did have fear issues. I live on the beach, and a walking distance from a state owned park. There are its of dog owners in my area. Impossible to avoid other dogs. Off leash laws allow til 9am. After that, only in designated areas.
> 
> I felt that I did set her up for success, by walking with her in the trails (on leash), and avoiding the dog park. This was a random chance encounter, with a dog owner that frequents the dog park.
> 
> ...


Based on what I've read, I think you're doing a good job with her. My main thing is to always set the dog up with success. You're learning on the job... we all have to start somewhere.

Next time this happens, stand tall, change your direction and keep Kiras focus on YOU and you only. Don't even give her the opportunity to make eye contact with these kind of dogs.

Things do happen. Stupid people own dogs and let them do as they please which is why I really don't like dog parks. A handy can of pepper spray or citronella dog deterrent would be good to keep around to avoid aggressive off leash dogs in the future.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I would like for you to back up your comment.
> 
> I've gone as far as printing out some of the advice given, and it's helped me in ways that I never would have accomplished on my own.
> 
> ...


I have not followed your posts and really don't remember much about you personally. I take it you are a new dog owner and so you are learning. That is fair enough. We all have to learn. I learned my lesson when my GSD was a puppy and me and my husband were out on a walk with him. We saw a pit bull tied in a front yard as we walked along and the pit was behaving very aggressively but he was tied and his owners were standing near-he could not reach the sidewalk and so we didn't want to make our dog seem like a coward or something so instead of crossing the street-we walked right in front of the house with the pit tied out. 

The pit became so enraged that our dog dare walk so close to him that you'll never guess what happened next-he broke the leash! Came running at our puppy and my husband and I were kicking at him and trying to shield our puppy from him but he managed to get around us and jumped on my dog from the back-he bit him once but it wasn't too bad. The owner managed to get him off our dog-and a tough lesson learned for us-cross the street, turn around, do whatever it takes to keep our dog from this type of situation again.

I know your post seemed very proud of what transpired but I hope that you have learned something from your experience and from the reactions received on this thread. Good luck with your dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anthony8858 said:


> Thanks Paul. I agree with your assessment. She was attacked in the past, and did have fear issues. I live on the beach, and a walking distance from a state owned park. There are its of dog owners in my area. Impossible to avoid other dogs. Off leash laws allow til 9am. After that, only in designated areas.
> 
> I felt that I did set her up for success, by walking with her in the trails (on leash), and avoiding the dog park. This was a random chance encounter, with a dog owner that frequents the dog park.
> 
> ...


I think it would have made a difference. It certainly sounded like your dog did more than bark. But evenso, I think there is plenty of advice, even in this thread where you should step up and handle the situation, act before your dog needs to react.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Anthony what did happen?


*There was NO contact!!!*

Kira was leashed. The other dog had plenty of lead to get closer. When the other owner saw that Kira wanted no part of her, he pulled his dog back.

Whatever language these dogs speak, I was happy that she didn't get touched. The stage was set for her to get pinned, and she didn't allow it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would just take a deep breath and walk away from the post for a while.

I th ink much of the negative reaction you are getting (and you were even in your face about it when you first posted-so what DO you expect?) is due to the initial apparent "pride" with her response. 

Many of us have lived with a dog who learned a fear agressive response and are cringing. Having lived with such a dog (and Cyra is that way)- walking is always with full awareness of what is going on in a 360 degree circle around me. Usually you do have the time to divert, even with loose dogs. (I once had to divert a pack of 4 loose dogs by putting my dog in a sit-stay and going after them with a big stick--walk with a big walking stick - good weapon)

Ironically, the dogs I have actually seen who seem to have the best response to strange dogs have spent less, not more, time playing with other puppies growing up. 

Perhaps she is young enough for you to find 2 or 3 solid adult dogs who can mentor her in dog language and calming signals. I actually think that is how Turid Rugaas has done some rehab (from reading her book - the video is great too)

Once I got Grim I started watching other dogs and saw how the confident dogs rarely got in fights because they simply would not play that game and knew when an oncoming snarky dog was not a real threat and used calming signals on them.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I am always hyper aware of my surroundings when I have my dogs out in public, and you need to be too. Always be on the lookout. I try not to go around blind corners. I prefer to walk one at a time and take my sturdy walking stick. I have used my walking stick a time or two to block an offensive dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> I would just take a deep breath and walk away from the post for a while.
> 
> I th ink much of the negative reaction you are getting (and you were even in your face about it when you first posted-so what DO you expect?) is due to the initial apparent "pride" with her response.
> 
> ...


Yes, all of this. 

When dogs aren't raised with other dogs, I think they lose some of their language while trying so hard to please us in ours. 

I had my Mario in an obedience class and was watching him trying to communicate with the other dogs from single dog households - very politely trying to tell them that he was nervous and friendly - and they were looking at him like whaaaaa???? Mario had been in multi-dog households from tiny puppy on so was fluent in dog. They no longer were. 

I think everyone should take a time out before they post or re-engage.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

OK, I'm going to sleep.

Kira just wanted me to let you all know that she's alright, and not to worry.

Here's a smile for you:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Perhaps she is young enough for you to find 2 or 3 solid adult dogs who can mentor her in dog language and calming signals. I actually think that is how Turid Rugaas has done some rehab (from reading her book - the video is great too)


It's not easy to find these kind of dogs if you don't know where to start looking in the first place. 

One dog stable, confident, calm dog would probably enough to begin with. 

Before she had Pyometra, Zenzy helped Yukon tremendously and now he's the one that helped others being calm outside.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Ending on a good note.
> 
> No contact was made. Kira simply barked back, and stopped the other dog from advancing on her.
> If she didn't do that, I can be 100% certain that she would have gotten pinned again.
> ...


Thats what I thought. Not at the dog park and no physical contact. I like Joycyn's suggestion re finding adult dogs who are confident for Kira to pal w/ ?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Final note....

I want to apologize to everyone here.
Maybe you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have been proud that she stood up for herself. Maybe I took her actions more "personal", as opposed to weighing the ramifications of having a fear aggressive dog.
Maybe I wasn't knowledgeable enough to recognize an action out of fear, as opposed to an actions out of maturity.
I was proud that she corrected the "bully". My bad.

I do appreciate all the posts and help I've gotten in the past three months. It'd made me a better dog owner, and has awarded me a very nice well behaved GSD

Obviously, my issues are outside the home, and do may require a better understanding of what's considered success or not.

Good night


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Do you have the book "The other end of the leash"? 
If not, do read it.
Also Temple Grandin's books helped me a lot to determine what's going on underneath dogs' reactions, the hormones and chemical reactions and changes that take place when a dog is afraid, for instance.
They are great books.
Something about dog body language is a great suggestion though.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

_Anthony, _are you a regular NCIS watcher? If so, "DON'T APOLOGIZE!" 

Who knows which rule that is?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

In all fairness, the other guy was being a jerk with his "big bad dog" and I think you probably took pleasure in showing him up as well.
Natural reaction but yet, do not humanize her, and she's a baby, needing your protection.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

mrs.k said:


> _anthony, _are you a regular ncis watcher? If so, "don't apologize!"
> 
> who knows which rule that is?


Rule #1 on NCIS but the Duke said it first in Mclintock.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And thankfully for us, Anthony has better social skills and it is appreciated - helps us all to step back and figure out ways to help him help her!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Rule #1 on NCIS but the Duke said it first in Mclintock.


I don't know Mclintock but I love NCIS. 

It's two rules that are important. Never Apologize and never mess with a Marines coffee.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Haha LOVE NCIS!!! McClintock too actually.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Now I need to google McClintock.

And Anthony, don't apologize because in this case you haven't done anything wrong.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I just got the book "Calming signals". I wanted to start reading it tonight. I guess if I read it yesterday, a problem could have been avoided. 

Also, Kira's fear issues are not with every dog. She has play mates, and plays nicely. (go look at the videos I posted of her socializing). Her problem is with dogs that APPROACH her. So maybe that had something to do with my elation. The approaching dog didn't faze her this time. This is something Carmen, and many other have taken the time to address.

Here's one of her play mates.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I still love you guys.....

Even though you're a bunch of hardass dog owners.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

You work with her first - *no dogs* - you get her confident in you -- you give her a reason to trust you .

This was a quote from Carmen on your last thread. I made no dogs bold.

I'm not an expert but I know when I'm listenig to one. What Carmen said in this quote along with a lot of other things she covered are what you should be doing. Not forcing your pup into things she is not ready for and doesn't need. 

I have a 19 week old puppy and my 5yr. old jack. 

My puppy has only been around strange dogs in the controlled environment of 2 puppy classes. She will be starting obedience class this week.

I don't need for her to meet strange dogs or play with strange dogs or go to a dog park. Right now while she is a puppy both myself and my wife are very conscious of what is going on when she is in a public place. I avoid situations like some of the ones you have gotten into like the plague.

I don't want to raise a fear reactive dog.

You would probably not understand Jack at all. He has no interest in other dogs. That's fine with me. 

I tried the dog park a few times and he could have cared less that there were other dogs there. He wanted to be with me and play with me.

Not all dogs and in particuliar GSD's need to be social butterflies. 

Your pup has had enough negative experiences. Please take Carmen's advice no dogs for awhile. Like she said, she needs to be more confident in you. IMO


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Anthony, she seems to play very nicely with that dog. Seems like you have a great girl. Please-do all that you can to keep that nit-wit dog owner and his dog away from your sweet girl. You don't want everything you have been striving for with her to be ruined because of this guy.


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## amaris (Jan 6, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> _Anthony, _are you a regular NCIS watcher? If so, "DON'T APOLOGIZE!"
> 
> Who knows which rule that is?


isn't it rule #6...Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness?

love NCIS


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Anthony, I think some of the posts, like Paul's, were really good. 

Don't feel like it's over because of one mistake--Mrs. K was right when sometimes it is very fast. Rocket got blindsided once at PetSmart by a terrier on a retractable, and just yesterday we were walking in our mountain trails, on which we've NEVER come across anyone other than one neighbor with two goldendoodles that Rocket knows and are very nice and well-behaved. As we rounded the ridge and came up top, he was about 8 feet in front of me and I saw two white dogs running towards us from the other side. I initially thought they were the 'doodles, so I wasn't too concerned. But as I got a better look, they were running towards him and I could see they WEREN'T the 'doodles. He started to move forward, and I said "ROCKET." I don't know if he responded to my voice, or he is his own calming signal dog (or playing the puppy card still) but he stopped. I said "Wait", which was kind of silly, because he doesn't really know that much at all. He immediately went into a down. They came roaring over, the guy huffing behind them, and I didn't want him to freak out or react because of me, so I calmly walked as quickly as I could over. He stood up, and they were both kindi of sniffing, but with one, he immediately went into the end-to-end sniff, very politely. They were doing fine and the other one suddenly went beserk and --remember that thread the other day where someone asked how they could tell if their dogs were fighting? Well, this one was attacking Rocket. There was no mistaking that fast and furious. Rocket just head bobbed and avoided and I called him to me while I started to turn slightly, so as not to head toward him, and he came immediately and I leashed him. I was scared that he would have an issue with the attack, but he seemed fine. 

Funny enough, the guy kept saying they weren't aggressive, (uh.... the one, maybe) but then he went on to say the older one (they were 8 and 9) had been attacked by an Akita as a pup and ever since had "issues" with meeting other dogs.  I said, "Yes, I'm sure, I'd like for my pup to not have to experience that". 

The point is, I did not have Rocket on the leash. I wasn't really close enough to prevent at least one bite, in reality. I was lucky, that Rocket seems very affable and not prone to freaking out. He reminds me of a surfer dude, LOL. A "Man, whazz up? Why ya gotta be that way?" type. If he wasn't, I wouldn't want to project any nervousness to him when I saw dogs, but I would make sure he didn't get very close to them for a while. I would just draw Kira's attention to you while steering her as far away as possible. Sometimes this is unavoidable, because people can be idiots, but I think you know this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> And thankfully for us, Anthony has better social skills and it is appreciated - helps us all to step back and figure out ways to help him help her!


The voice of reason again!!! :apple:



Anthony8858 said:


> I just got the book "Calming signals". I wanted to start reading it tonight. I guess if I read it yesterday, a problem could have been avoided.
> I still love you guys.....
> 
> Even though you're a bunch of hardass dog owners.


Read Calming signals and pass it on to someone else...it is cheap enough to pass the message on, and will possibly help others. I bought it, gave it to a clueless doggy daycare/trainer owner, never got it back but hoped it helped if she passed it on...that is a pay it forward book!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Anthony, I think some of the posts, like Paul's, were really good.
> 
> Don't feel like it's over because of one mistake--Mrs. K was right when sometimes it is very fast. Rocket got blindsided once at PetSmart by a terrier on a retractable, and just yesterday we were walking in our mountain trails, on which we've NEVER come across anyone other than one neighbor with two goldendoodles that Rocket knows and are very nice and well-behaved. As we rounded the ridge and came up top, he was about 8 feet in front of me and I saw two white dogs running towards us from the other side. I initially thought they were the 'doodles, so I wasn't too concerned. But as I got a better look, they were running towards him and I could see they WEREN'T the 'doodles. He started to move forward, and I said "ROCKET." I don't know if he responded to my voice, or he is his own calming signal dog (or playing the puppy card still) but he stopped. I said "Wait", which was kind of silly, because he doesn't really know that much at all. He immediately went into a down. They came roaring over, the guy huffing behind them, and I didn't want him to freak out or react because of me, so I calmly walked as quickly as I could over. He stood up, and they were both kindi of sniffing, but with one, he immediately went into the end-to-end sniff, very politely. They were doing fine and the other one suddenly went beserk and --*remember that thread the other day where someone asked how they could tell if their dogs were fighting?* Well, this one was attacking Rocket. He just head bobbed and avoided and I called him to me while I started to turn slightly, so as not to head toward him, and he came immediately and I leashed him. I was scared that he would have an issue with the attack, but he seemed fine.


That was my thread-so could you tell right away that they were really fighting?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> You work with her first - *no dogs* - you get her confident in you -- you give her a reason to trust you .
> 
> This was a quote from Carmen on your last thread. I made no dogs bold.
> 
> ...


I have to stress this one more time....

I did NOT put her in a position to be with other dogs. I did take Carmen's advice. I was walking in the woods, along a trail around a lake in the park. Dogs were passing us by one after the other, and with each passing dog, Kira got her "leave it" command, and didn't even look at the other dogs. THEN from around a bend, comes this barking DS on a 50 foot lead!!! Not much I could do at that point.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova:

Oh yes. And he can really play hard with his visla-boxer "girlfriend", LOL, but this was DEFINITE. It was a snarling, whirling attack. Extremely fast. And dead serious. 

I can't remember who it was that said you'd be able to tell, but they were exactly on the money. Even the dude knew, although he didn't want to admit it. The male tried again to go after Rocket, because they weren't leashed, but the guy thankfully had no qualms about physically getting in the way. He didn't exactly kick the dog, but he did something. I couldn't quite see, because I was putting Rocket behind me. The funny part is, we ended up going along the ridge together for a while, his dogs just stayed far ahead and I kept Rocket, much to his dismay, because he STILL wanted to go play with them, on the leash.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah... but he still needs to go out and walk his dog to potty and to exercise her. Not his fault when some idiot owner lets his dog approach her on a retractable leash. He didn't plan the encounter... and there is a slight difference between an unplanned encounter and deliberately taking her back to the park to put her through negative situations. 

This was an accident. Not his fault. 



Jack's Dad said:


> You work with her first - *no dogs* - you get her confident in you -- you give her a reason to trust you .
> 
> This was a quote from Carmen on your last thread. I made no dogs bold.
> 
> ...


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Germanshepherdlova:
> 
> Oh yes. And he can really play hard with his visla-boxer "girlfriend", LOL, but this was DEFINITE. It was a snarling, whirling attack. Extremely fast. And dead serious.
> 
> I can't remember who it was that said you'd be able to tell, but they were exactly on the money. Even the dude knew, although he didn't want to admit it. The male tried again to go after Rocket, because they weren't leashed, but the guy thankfully had no qualms about physically getting in the way. He didn't exactly kick the dog, but he did something. I couldn't quite see, because I was putting Rocket behind me. The funny part is, we ended up going along the ridge together for a while, his dogs just stayed far ahead and I kept Rocket, much to his dismay, because he STILL wanted to go play with them, on the leash.


wow-so I have been noticing a bit of difference between when my dogs are playing and when the playing is turning into a fight-the growling intensifies and things start going crazy. Glad your dog is alright though.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I have to stress this one more time....
> 
> I did NOT put her in a position to be with other dogs. I did take Carmen's advice. I was walking in the woods, along a trail around a lake in the park. Dogs were passing us by one after the other, and with each passing dog, Kira got her "leave it" command, and didn't even look at the other dogs. THEN from around a bend, comes this barking DS on a 50 foot lead!!! Not much I could do at that point.


Right here you just said "dogs were passing us one by one after the other etc.." How is that no dogs. Why would you assume if you are passing one after another that it won't happen again with a dog you don't suspect.

I don't think flooding her with dogs will work but she is yours to do with what you wish and I sincerely wish you and her the best.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Right here you just said "dogs were passing us one by one after the other etc.." How is that no dogs. Why would you assume if you are passing one after another that it won't happen again with a dog you don't suspect.
> 
> I don't think flooding her with dogs will work but she is yours to do with what you wish and I sincerely wish you and her the best.


I don't know about you, but *walking by* dogs is *not MEETING *a dog face to face/nose to nose. :help:


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Right here you just said "dogs were passing us one by one after the other etc.." How is that no dogs. Why would you assume if you are passing one after another that it won't happen again with a dog you don't suspect.
> 
> I don't think flooding her with dogs will work but she is yours to do with what you wish and I sincerely wish you and her the best.


OK, maybe I'm taking the "no dogs" thing differently.

My definition of "no dogs", is no off leash situations, where Kira would be exposed to aggressive dogs and different temperaments.

When I said dogs passing by, these were leashed dogs, walking with their owners, on a nature trail.
I find it quite easy to walk past a dog on a leash....
I understand what you're saying. I didn't understand earlier.

So I need to find a "dog less park"


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't know about you, but *walking by* dogs is *not MEETING *a dog face to face/nose to nose. :help:


That's what I've been trying to say.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I don't know about you, but *walking by* dogs is *not MEETING *a dog face to face/nose to nose. :help:


Mrs.K. 
I am referring to Anthony constantly exposing this pup to other dogs. Whether in dog parks or on walks or in regular parks.
I don't understand the need for this. Especially with the experiences this pup has had.
Why does his pup need to be walking by dogs on a regular basis.

With regard to the specific incident. It has happened to me and lots of people being surprised by a loose or improperly leashed dog.

If the puppy were mine I would not have her around other dogs right now. No parks, definitely no dog parks and not even walking around strange dogs right now and for some time to come. 
As I said before we all have those choices though.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

As long as all dogs are on leash, I don't see a problem with keeping Kira around other dogs that way. No nose-to-nose meet and greets or anything like that with random dogs, but walking by other leashed dogs on a trail shouldn't be a problem. 

Actually, it's a good opportunity to work on focus with other distractions around. 

There was another recent thread that went on for pages about how some people feel that leash laws don't apply to them in similar situations as this, so keep in mind not all dogs are guaranteed to be on leash as they should be.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what I said in the Kira-at-the-park-Bruno thing. 
follow 

Kira grew a pair of B*lls - xxx no afraid not , she did not. She did the opposite . 

In this dog park, there's a GSD that's harassed Kira on a regular basis - xxx so why continue going there . 

I don't recall this dog being mentioned in previous posts. You are not suggesting that it was Bruno?

xxx this is beginning to sound like the kid being bullied till one day they come back to the school with some mission of vengeance. 

He walks towards me, and lets out his retractable lead. The guy knows that Kira is timid, and IMO, was asking for trouble --- xxx you saw it and looks like you could have acted differently -- but he was asking for trouble . 

The dog is a dog , not a representative of you . 

My baby girl raised her hacks, charged the on coming dog
--- xxxx fear , threshold lowered , fear biter . She drove the dog off out of fear , setting up a reward for pre-emptive fear response . Not good . 

Kira wasn't having nay part of that dog anymore, and as much as you may not like how I feel, I'm happy for her. She needed to get in touch with her canine side.
She may not have acted this way is she were loose in the dog park. I felt as if being restricted on the leash, forced her hand --- xxx nothing to be happy about . Unfortunately these things take more to undo. She has only a canine side to be in touch with -- you are right , in the park she would have had the opportunity to run away , first option . Fear- flight , better than fear-fight. Now she has fear-fight in her quiver. 
I am dissapointed . You knew the dog , you know the history , you should not have left the other guy with the control of the situation expecting them to understand your problems and stand there is a passive aggressive way and let things unravel , so that Kira could have the moment that you felt she should have had . You don't like to see her run away -- embarrasses you , so finally the dog fights and you say good finally the dog has some balls , yet it is fear .

example. Dogs that I raise up and expose to all manner of environments so that I CAN VIEW how they handle things are taken in to Oshawa an area that has some troubled areas . If I see someone on the sidewalk performing for spare change and a dubious looking dog with them, I will call out from a distance , please could you get your dog under control -- proactive. Then I pass without loosing my stride , drop a coin in the case , tell them thanks and continue . Same thing on the Toronto Beach board walk where there are groups of dogs running off leash -- you do a quick read - if they are okay you walk by - control your own dog , who should be ignoring them -- or if they look like trouble - same thing , you call out and ask for that the dogs be put on lead . Don't care , mine is , yours should be . Continue , say thanks , no incident .

I keep thinking this is not the dog you wanted that she embarrasses you. I also wonder what you did in the dog park after Bruno gave her the look and she ran off . What did you do once you gathered Kira up. Did you slink away . Did you correct her. Were you angry - the answer would be a clue why and what is wrong to guide this dog into better experiences.

I just stood there, ready to pull his dog off Kira. I froze.--- xxx but that is what happened at the dog park , you stood there and kept taking the video -- you need to anticipate your dogs reactions and take a proactive stance . At the dog park some movement to break the tension would have been good -- not a worried "oh this doesn't look good" -- here you want to wait to pull the dog off -- stop the dog , shout at the owner , shout at the dog - the other dog - get outa here --- put the brakes on , and at the same time do something with your dog , who says you have to stay on the 5 feet of sidewalk - it's not an electrified field beyond that -- zig to the side do quick right angle turn , move your dog with you. Walking the dog is an active activity , sounds funny, but it is like riding a horse . All the time you are looking ahead, anticipating , giving communications .

Oh I get it.. I should have been happy and proud that she got pinned, and went home with a few holes in her neck --- xxx if this is the enormity of the other dogs aggression why did you have your dog running in the park with Kira there and why did you have her there several times , and why did your worst fear - holes in the neck not happen in the park when they were loose and had ample opportunity.
Don't recall you mentioning the dog before -- yeah I already said that -- . 


two dogs? you say a prayer! but if your dog chooses to step in front of you i'm assuming that's not a nervy dog. ---xxx been there done that -- you give body posture signals to the other dog and you use your voice to impress them - get outa here - go home , been there , done that -- guess what DECOYS who don't play the prey-play game can easily chase off dogs with nothing more than taking up a stance , eye contact , attitude of head , posture , voice , voice is a great tool -- most dogs are pretty melty when it comes to authority in the voice --

IMO, she merely stopped that dog from charging, instead of running and hiding. Yes, I'm proud of her.
I understand what your concerns are... but I think there's a difference between fear aggressive, and submissive fear---xxx Anthony, how did she stop the dog from charging , you never did say what happened , did the other dog back up , did the owner take control . Did you ever SPEAK with the other owner and ask them to please control their dog - don't be passive aggressive -- take a positive position which creates a change . Don't leave it to the Kira pup to do it . There is that proud again. You need to know what is happening . 

last topic where he was listening and following advise and actually asked questions how to go further in her training, where Carmen has given valuable, valuable advise

--or Mrs K , doing the SAME thing in a different location.
Self identity is tied up with the dogs identity. Separate it and you'll make better decisions . 
--I can kind of see where the OP is coming from being proud his dog stood up for herself. Speaking from a guys standpoint, I can see not wanting a dog yelping in fear as a dog runs at her - play or not - it's a pride thing ---xxx exactly what I am talking about -- because the dog is wimpy (short cut description understood) does not mean that Anthony or you are wimpy. Don't tie up your identity with the dog. However this is what I feel is at the bottom of all this -- the saving face , how can my GSD be so chicken , what is wrong with this dog , what an embarrassment, for pete's sake she's supposed to be a GSD --- love the one your with , love the one your with .
Anthony you call her your baby -- well then that includes unconditional love -- as she is , for what she is , shortcomings and all -- and that and only that , understanding what her nature is and providing the environment for that dog to come to her best potential . Genetics and environment / management . You can not change the past , or her genetics, but you can change the future. Anthony makes mistakes and hopefully learns from them. The dog is also learning from those mistakes. They will have a more profound result on her than on Anthony . To Anthony they are cerebal . To Kira they are visceral. 
Dogs that learn that an aggressive response to fear will act out aggression at increasingly lower levels of threat - thus eliminating the threat . A fear aggressive dog will lunge out , hit the end of the lead pre-emptive . They will learn to bite first , ask later . 

He's feeling pride when this happened, but Kira was scared and reacted --- xxxx yup

------------Ironically, the dogs I have actually seen who seem to have the best response to strange dogs have spent less, not more, time playing with other puppies growing up-------- xxxxxx oh so true.

Anthony , weird smile , I'm not reading that as a relaxed dog . To my eye that looks like a dog being teased. The first signal to leave me alone - the eyes , the white of the eye , the mouth tight , closed , blurry picture - a bit of a lift or crinkle to the lip. .....

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Mrs.K.
> I am referring to Anthony constantly exposing this pup to other dogs. Whether in dog parks or on walks or in regular parks.
> I don't understand the need for this. Especially with the experiences this pup has had.
> Why does his pup need to be walking by dogs on a regular basis.
> ...


Where else are you supposed to walk your dog if not on the only trails you are allowed to walk them?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Mrs.K.
> I am referring to Anthony constantly exposing this pup to other dogs. Whether in dog parks or on walks or in regular parks.
> I don't understand the need for this. Especially with the experiences this pup has had.
> Why does his pup need to be walking by dogs on a regular basis.
> ...


I understand what you're saying. It's very difficult to accomplish this, when you live in an area surrounded by parks, and in those parks are people with their dogs. 
I have a state park nearby, that would accomplish what you're saying.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

*Ideas for alternative walking areas.*

Woolf has to be walked, get exercise, burn the energy or he and I both would not be happy. Woolf is also DA which makes it difficult to walk without running into other dogs. We've had to get creative. During the week we use large church grounds, cemeteries, in the evenings empty office parks. On weekends school campuses and office parks. None of this short walks. This also gives us the advantage of long walls on building to use for heel work. 

Just some ideas to think about for walks....


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> what I said in the Kira-at-the-park-Bruno thing.
> follow
> 
> Kira grew a pair of B*lls - xxx no afraid not , she did not. She did the opposite .
> ...



Oh boy, am I in trouble.

OK.... I'll go easy and first address the smile. The "smile" was a video snip of her chewing on a wet food meatball with her daily vitamin. She was actually licking her chops, and I pulled that clip out of the video. I wouldn't read into that too much.

The "other dog" is the dog that I may have mentioned earlier. She is a GS female, that would always interrupt Lira when she used to play with the white dog in the first video. I would meet the white dog for some one on one, and then the other GS would arrive, and that was that. Kira would be scared and hiding. I would then remove her as soon as I see the other dog coming.

Here's a better pic for you.



















Getting back to the real issues... I can't argue with you. You're right. It was a bad judgement call on my part, and the wrong way to handle the situation. I felt better about Kira not getting bullied, and I expressed it. That's all. It was harmless on my part, but I shouldn't have been proud of her actions.

Dog park...
I have to make this clear.... I do NOT take her to the dog park on a regular basis. I just recently started using that area to meet with certain dogs as friendly playmates, and it just so happen that other dogs got into the picture. It was then, that I became concerned with her behavior and addressed it here.

The park has trails for walking, and the reason I crossed paths with that dog, is because it was 65 degrees in January. Any other day, this doesn't happen.

Honestly have no answers for you. If I read here posts, it sounds if I'm doing a horrible job raising my puppy, and maybe shouldn't have gotten her.

I appreciate the responses to my concerns, and am doing my best to understand what needs to be done.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

11 pages in a couple hours not involving breeding, neutering, or food... impressive stuff. You're a bit of a firecracker here, Anthony.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> 11 pages in a couple hours not involving breeding, neutering, or food... impressive stuff. You're a bit of a firecracker here, Anthony.


LOL.. I'm starting to feel as if I'm wearing out my welcome.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

For once the Redhead isn't the firecracker! 

Hooray!!

Anthony, I will be forever grateful.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony , you are a gentleman in your responses, and I am glad that everyone is trying to help you. I think Twyla gave you some good ideas . the Wolters book is very good . I think YOU enjoy going to the dog park. I would imagine that you are quit a social person. So do you have some friends with dogs that would join you on a walk. I know there are some people from the subdivision a 5 minute car ride away. They drive their dogs to the one room school house at the intersection of my road, park there and then they walk up my road , side by side, dogs very nicely heeling as they go up and then down to return to their cars . That would put them at about 4 ks return trip. Early morning when my son was still at home, and he was active in a competitive rowing team I would drive him up to the lake (Scugog) 5:30 in the a.m. before school , take a dog or two in the crate (s) back of van . While he was on the lake I would be doing the circuit in this small town Port Perry , up and down the roads, residential area business area. When a film crew set up - the crew would meet and greet the dogs -- that film depending on your taste was either "best" or "worst" ever - Ray Romano and Gene Hackman in Welcome to Moosewood . They loved the dogs , but I never saw the movie -- but that is the town just north of us.
Any hooo, one of the other parents had a dog as well that would be free and jumping around while the kids were getting the equipment out of the boathouse . I asked her , hey , want to join me for the walk - and so she did , and the next time another . Occasionally we had three or four walking down the middle of the road - no traffic that time of day in sleepy town . All dogs on leash , minding their own. After when it was time to have the kids return , dogs would be put away , and we'd have coffee together .
You can turn it into something social . That was all the contact that the dogs needed - being in proximity . One was a feisty Jack Russell and he would be put on the outside left side - and even he settled after the owner got a few tips . See if there is not someone you can link up with from your training classes , or see if there is some walking club .. You may be surprised to see what is available.
best to you
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> two dogs? you say a prayer! but if your dog chooses to step in front of you i'm assuming that's not a nervy dog. ---xxx been there done that -- you give body posture signals to the other dog and you use your voice to impress them - get outa here - go home , been there , done that -- guess what DECOYS who don't play the prey-play game can easily chase off dogs with nothing more than taking up a stance , eye contact , attitude of head , posture , voice , voice is a great tool -- most dogs are pretty melty when it comes to authority in the voice --


Best weapon you have and I learned that from my father. So far it has been a lifesaver. That you don't react and freeze up happens once but if you aren't
learn-resistant, it won't happen again. I do have faith in him. He's shown that he is willing to learn. He is trying to use the advise that is given to him. 

Getting advise from a forum and trying to use that advise while not having one that is correcting you, as the handler, is extremely hard, especially if you are a novice. 

So I would actually try to find a decent trainer that doesn't take your last shirt and work with that trainer. Even if it is only every two weeks. If it is a good trainer it WILL make a huge difference. 

I know they are expensive but the really good trainers, with years and years of experience, usually are pretty good behaviorists too and know exactly how to deal with these kind of dogs and can give him the tools to deal with it. It doesn't take a Cesar Milan to work with a puppy like that.

Plus, he's got one advantage. It's a puppy. A half a year old dog that can still be shaped in either direction. With the right attitude, the will and being pro-active about it, I have faith that he will grow with his dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anthony for what you are dealing with and your level of experience you are doing fine. If your dog after this incident walked past other leashed dogs without incident then the previous incident DIDNOT create a fear or dog aggression issue. You probably shouldn't have mentioned your feelings. No need to apologize. You got some good constructive advice, take it; you also got some emotional responses based on personal feelings; ignore them, GoodLuck


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

wow, 11 pages

I've said this before, I did a 'bad' thing when I took Masi as a young puppy to a puppy class..Full of idiot owners without a clue who allowed their dogs (yes there were some dogs in the class) to 'jump' mine. Stupid stupid me, I should have known better this wasn't my first gsd. The "trainer" wasn't much better. 

What I 'had" was a very outgoing, curious, friendly puppy to what I "got" @ 4months of age, a puppy who thought she had to defend herself against other dogs because they scared the crap out of her, all within the time span of 3 - 1 hour classes 

It took me quite some time, a few months probably, to deprogram and get her back on track. Thankfully, most of that hasn't been a lasting impression, tho I can see she hates Goldens, (the big instigator in puppy class)..

I don't 'do' dog parks, but I am out walking/hiking, in public ALOT with her. She isn't a social butterfly out in public, but minds her own business and doesn't care about other dogs around her. 

However, if a dog charges us/her, and it's happened a few times, she is definately going to react. I have never had an incident where she's "connected" or fought with a strange dog, because I have been able to stop/block it. 

I have had incidents as Anthony, on a trail, not much space, and had some woman one time come around the corner with two labs, they were going BONKERS, I told Masi to "leave it", (which is her signal to be quiet and well, ignore it),,I backed off the trail, but the woman was having ALOT of difficulty holding back her raving lunatic dogs,,my sister had to go help her. If she wasn't there, I don't want to think about what could have happened.

My point is, and off topic I guess, is, this woman couldn't handle two dogs she shouldn't have been out there, it could have resulted in something none of us could have stopped.

I carry pepper spray now 

I also think your doing ok with Kira..I would take her everywhere I could, and let her play with dogs she's happy with. Keeping all encounters positive can only be positive for her


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> wow, 11 pages
> 
> I've said this before, I did a 'bad' thing when I took Masi as a young puppy to a puppy class..Full of idiot owners without a clue who allowed their dogs (yes there were some dogs in the class) to 'jump' mine. Stupid stupid me, I should have known better this wasn't my first gsd. The "trainer" wasn't much better.
> 
> ...


Sounds pretty much like the same experience.
These things will happen, and I'd bet most people wouldn't have the reactive instincts to handle it as most people here suggest. There's a level of anxiety that kicks in, and unless you specialize in canine behavior, one wouldn't jump in front of their dogs, but rather expect their dog to defend them.

In my case, I never felt that Kira was in danger. I knew the dog was on a lead.

I guess bottom line.... I was happy that Kira barked instead of running behind me, with her tail between her legs.

I admit.... I may have had a testosterone rise. If felt good to see her hold her ground.

HOWEVER, (before everyone sharpens their axe), I'll be certain to apply the methods that everyone here suggests in the future.
I promise never to put her in that situation again!!!

ON A BRIGHTER NOTE:

My wife finally "got it", and agreed that Kira doesn't need to be at a dog park to have fun.
As we speak, my wife has Kira in the park, JOGGING with her in the trails. There are lots of dirt jogging trails, and she just called to tell me that KIra is in her glory.
She's in a happy trot with her, and my wife swears that Kira keeps looking up at her with a smile 
Do you get the impression, that we love our dog? 

As always, I ABSOLUTELY thank each and every one of you for getting on my case about this incident.
I unknowingly could have put my dog in harm's way.

I truly do appreciate your straight forwardness, and if anything, it's a true testament to your dedication to owning and properly training a GSD.

Kira, says thanks, too


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> These things will happen, and I'd bet most people wouldn't have the reactive instincts to handle it as most people here suggest. There's a level of anxiety that kicks in, and unless you specialize in canine behavior, one wouldn't jump in front of their, but rather expect their dog to defend them.


Not necessarily. Some people go through great lengths to protect their dogs at all cost. 

Puppies can't defend you. It's like expecting a 13 year old to protect you from an intruder while you are the one standing behind them. 

You will learn. Like Cliffson, I and others said, you did nothing wrong. Sometimes things go so fast that you can't react. Now you know what to expect and know what to do but even knowing what to do doesn't mean you can automatically use that knowledge in a stressful situation. 

I am glad that your wife is on the same page with you. When both agree it's so much easier than having to argue with your spouse on a constant basis on top of that. 

Next time you encounter these two "special species" call out to her to keep her dog back. If she doesn't keep her dog back, stomp towards the dog and yell at the dog and then tell that woman to never let her dog go at her or next time you will kick him off.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Not necessarily. Some people go through great lengths to protect their dogs at all cost.
> 
> *Puppies can't defend you. It's like expecting a 13 year old to protect you from an intruder while you are the one standing behind them. *
> 
> ...


I was thinking more in "dog terms", not puppy. But you're right.

You know.... A lot of people are afraid of charging, barking dogs. I know my wife would NOT get in a GS's face and yell at the dog. She would be stared straight. I wouldn't hesitate doing it, but never thought that that's the right measure to take in that situation..


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I just want today one more thing......

This board has a "pack mentality".

You have evolved!


Ya think?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Zisso said:


> *I am always hyper aware of my surroundings* when I have my dogs out in public, and you need to be too. Always be on the lookout. I try not to go around blind corners. I prefer to walk one at a time and take my sturdy walking stick. I have used my walking stick a time or two to block an offensive dog.


No matter if its my dogs or my horse, it's up to me to "scope" out my surroundings and be totally aware of everything BEFORE my dogs or horse sees the object. This way my dog or horse knows I am already taking necessary precautions to ensure thier safty. The dog or horse can not fully trust you if they are the ones on the lookout. I learned this with my horse that used to freak if he saw a deer in the woods, now I spot the deer and make sure I direct him to where the deer is, then he is much more confident about the situation and wont spook. 
I walk 3 dogs at a time, I live in a pretty rural area, not desolate by any means. There have been many times I turned my dogs around in the opposite direction if I came up on a loose dog or something to avoid any altercation. Also walking in an arch instead of straight on does help.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

kiya said:


> No matter if its my dogs or my horse, it's up to me to "scope" out my surroundings and be totally aware of everything* BEFORE my dogs or horse sees the object.* This way my dog or horse knows I am already taking necessary precautions to ensure thier safty. The dog or horse can not fully trust you if they are the ones on the lookout. I learned this with my horse that used to freak if he saw a deer in the woods, now I spot the deer and make sure I direct him to where the deer is, then he is much more confident about the situation and wont spook.
> I walk 3 dogs at a time, I live in a pretty rural area, not desolate by any means. There have been many times I turned my dogs around in the opposite direction if I came up on a loose dog or something to avoid any altercation. Also walking in an arch instead of straight on does help.


You do realize that that is merely impossible because horses and dogs know way ahead of you that something else is out there, right? 

I don't know, but I'd rather read and feel my horses bodylanguage instead of being so darn concentrated on my surroundings that I possibly MISS what my horse is trying to tell me. 

The bodylanguage of your horse can tell you much much more and a lot faster than your eyes can canvas the area.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am sure she's doing both.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> And finally, I'd bet 99 out of 100 people *would NOT get in front of a charging GSD*. nor would they have the time to react.
> PLUS, and GSD runs a lot faster than I do.


I got between my GSD and three large dogs, one GSD, one husky and their offspring. I shoved by dog against the wall pinning his head to the wall and stood in front of him. I'll take a few bites, I'll heal. My dog would have suffered a life time of dog aggression that I'm not sure I can fix. Luckily the dogs owner and my husband (and most of the employees at the feed store) heard me yelling and came running. I was able to belt one dog on a lucky swing and that was enough to buy me some time. 

My dog sits on the fence. He is two, and as of today, will ignore other dogs. He doesn't bark or growl or lunge. He won't even give them the time of day. He doesn't want to be their friend, he doesn't want them to come greet him. I do everything I can to avoid any contact with my dog and another dog, unless it's a planned greeting. *That* I can do. 

Once we've fallen off the fence, once my dog decides he needs to be the aggressor, our entire dynamics change. It would be very difficult to climb back up on that fence again.

Wanted to add, my dog has a pair. God gave them to him.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

As the folks at my Shutzhund club say, dog parks are places where bad things are waiting to happen.

We have stopped going to dog parks all together since joining the Shutzhund club. Our dogs do not socialize with each other at our club either. They are crated and in the car apart from each other if they are not on the field.

The only dogs my girl gets to see now are the dogs in the neighborhood while out on walks. Thankfully we have nice dogs in our neighborhood with responsible owners who keep their dogs well in tow.

Stella has no issue with the neighborhood dogs and there is one that she absolutely adores.

She also met other puppies in obedience classes that we took her to last year. I am grateful that she has not really had any bad experiences with other dogs.

Stella does seem to have a fear issue with horses though, she barks each time she sees them. I am not sure why she is afraid of them as she has only been withing 20 feet of them with no interaction with the horses.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> *You do realize that that is merely impossible because horses and dogs know way ahead of you that something else is out there, right? *
> 
> I don't know, but *I'd rather read and feel my horses bodylanguage* instead of being so darn concentrated on my surroundings that I possibly MISS what my horse is trying to tell me.
> 
> The bodylanguage of your horse can tell you much much more and a lot faster than your eyes can canvas the area.


It is not impossible to see things before the animals. I do it all the time. Yesterday we were walking up a trail, me & the 3 dogs. I glance over to the left side and about 50' away there stood a deer. I was quite amused because if Lakota picks up fresh scent she doesn't stop till she finds the deer. I stopped and started talking to the deer, the dogs didn't have a clue. There have also been several times while riding I saw the deer first and pointed my horse in the direction sometimes having to wait for a tail flicker for the horse to see. I have also seen loose dogs before the dogs.
Visual is only 1 way to be in tune, probably one of the most important, you also absoulutely have to read your animals by watching the dogs or feeling the horse underneath you.
Maybe becuase I have had to deal with reactive dogs for so long I learned to be extra aware of everything around me because I will not let my dogs get into a predicament that would endanger thier life.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> feeling the horse underneath you.


As well as watching the ear play and listening to the breething. First it's the ear play. They hear something. Then the body tightens up and the breething changes.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> As well as watching the ear play and listening to the breething. First it's the ear play. They hear something. Then the body tightens up and the breething changes.


Unless of course you happen to be riding a highly strung Arabian. In which case, first you'll get....

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Then, if you're still in the saddle, you might get some ear play and breathing......however, the breathing would be coming from the rider......


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lilie said:


> Unless of course you happen to be riding a highly strung Arabian. In which case, first you'll get....
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!WWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Then, if you're still in the saddle, you might get some ear play and breathing......however, the breathing would be coming from the rider......



lots of drive + nerves :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Somehow, we ended up talking about horses.

I was wondering if I could train my fish to stop being so aggressive?
I have a Yellow Tang, that keeps chasing Nemo. Dori hides under rock (ala Kira).

Do we have a "_Fish whisperer_" in the house?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Somehow, we ended up talking about horses. I was wondering if I could train my fish to stop being so aggressive?


Don't ride it?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> The dog is a dog , not a representative of you .
> 
> -- because the dog is wimpy (short cut description understood) does not mean that Anthony or you are wimpy. Don't tie up your identity with the dog. However this is what I feel is at the bottom of all this -- the saving face , how can my GSD be so chicken , what is wrong with this dog , what an embarrassment, for pete's sake she's supposed to be a GSD --- love the one your with , love the one your with .
> Anthony you call her your baby -- well then that includes unconditional love -- as she is , for what she is , shortcomings and all -- and that and only that , understanding what her nature is and providing the environment for that dog to come to her best potential .


Carmen, marry me.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Unless of course you happen to be riding a highly strung Arabian. In which case, first you'll get....
> 
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!WWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Then, if you're still in the saddle, you might get some ear play and breathing......however, the breathing would be coming from the rider......



LMAO! Isn't that the truth!!! I've had that happen to me many times! Usually, not even on a trail where it is expected...nope... completely out of the blue in the dressage arena with nothing around! You know, those fences and cones can be quite dangerous....


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

wow

Anthony I think some of the reply's you got were way overboard. I don't think Kira will be fear - aggressive from this. raising Cody on the sidewalks of Chicago, we had thousands of encounters with leashed and unleashed dogs. Some went ok, some got aggressive. and he is stable. he's nice and can play with other dogs and walk right by them without issue. 

i'd try my best to get Cody (100 pounds) and Mandi (70 pounds) behind me. or get myself between them and the charging dog, but it doesn't always happen that way...

i understand where your sense of pride came from.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Somehow, we ended up talking about horses.


Sorry, the two go hand in hand for me. When dealing with behavioral issues such as fear and reactions the handling can be similar. The most important thing I was trying to state is that it is totally up to you to take control and anticipate the next move.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony , you are a gentleman in your responses, and I am glad that everyone is trying to help you. I think Twyla gave you some good ideas . the Wolters book is very good . I think YOU enjoy going to the dog park. I would imagine that you are quit a social person. So do you have some friends with dogs that would join you on a walk. I know there are some people from the subdivision a 5 minute car ride away. They drive their dogs to the one room school house at the intersection of my road, park there and then they walk up my road , side by side, dogs very nicely heeling as they go up and then down to return to their cars . That would put them at about 4 ks return trip. Early morning when my son was still at home, and he was active in a competitive rowing team I would drive him up to the lake (Scugog) 5:30 in the a.m. before school , take a dog or two in the crate (s) back of van . While he was on the lake I would be doing the circuit in this small town Port Perry , up and down the roads, residential area business area. When a film crew set up - the crew would meet and greet the dogs -- that film depending on your taste was either "best" or "worst" ever - Ray Romano and Gene Hackman in Welcome to Moosewood . They loved the dogs , but I never saw the movie -- but that is the town just north of us.
> Any hooo, one of the other parents had a dog as well that would be free and jumping around while the kids were getting the equipment out of the boathouse . I asked her , hey , want to join me for the walk - and so she did , and the next time another . Occasionally we had three or four walking down the middle of the road - no traffic that time of day in sleepy town . All dogs on leash , minding their own. After when it was time to have the kids return , dogs would be put away , and we'd have coffee together .
> You can turn it into something social . That was all the contact that the dogs needed - being in proximity . One was a feisty Jack Russell and he would be put on the outside left side - and even he settled after the owner got a few tips . See if there is not someone you can link up with from your training classes , or see if there is some walking club .. You may be surprised to see what is available.
> best to you
> ...


off subject briefly..love watching the early morning practices as the sun comes up over the water....and the mist dissipates..miss those days..and all you can hear is the chunk of the oars..


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

When Zeus was a puppy, I took him to the park everyday (not a dog park). I didn't know this at the time, but there was a local bully, a huge Golden R. I'd be walking my puppy and this Golden out of nowhere come running and put Zeus on his back. Through word of mouth, I found out that this Golden has a habit of doing this to all the new dogs. His owner never corrected nor leashed his dog. I avoided the man and Golden like a plague. 

One day, when Zeus was about 10 months old and almost as tall as the Golden, he decided, he has had enough, he put the the Golden on his back. Never again did this Golden bothered Zeus, his owner decided to leash his dog. 

This was over a decade ago, Zeus grew up very confident, social, neutral and ended up being a therapy dog, and he was intact too. 

I hope Kira can overcome this fear and have the same outcome as Zeus did.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think if the OP is willing to learn about dog behavior and how to interpret their body language, it will help tremendously. 

I think what got people most (looking back at this thread) was his misinterpretation of the puppy's body language...and the fact that it could have easily flipped the other way and the oncoming dog could have beat up Kira in a moment.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Josie/Zeus said:


> When Zeus was a puppy, I took him to the park everyday (not a dog park). I didn't know this at the time, but there was a local bully, a huge Golden R. I'd be walking my puppy and this Golden out of nowhere come running and put Zeus on his back. Through word of mouth, I found out that this Golden has a habit of doing this to all the new dogs. His owner never corrected nor leashed his dog. I avoided the man and Golden like a plague.
> 
> One day, when Zeus was about 10 months old and almost as tall as the Golden, he decided, he has had enough, he put the the Golden on his back. Never again did this Golden bothered Zeus, his owner decided to leash his dog.
> 
> ...


The more I read, the more I see that many of you have had the same experience as I did.
Very interesting.

So if Kira decided yesterday to put the overbearing GSD on her back, how should I have felt about that?

If the other dog had enough lead, maybe she would have gotten close enough to make contact. At that point anything could have happened.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I think if the OP is willing to learn about dog behavior and how to interpret their body language, it will help tremendously.
> 
> *I think what got people most (looking back at this thread) was his misinterpretation of the puppy's body language...and the fact that it could have easily flipped the other way and the oncoming dog could have beat up Kira in a moment*.


 
Ah yes, now you're getting it. I was just happy that Kira was able to avoid a confrontation. 

And I'm very interested in learning dog behavior. I find it facinating, and if anything, absolutely necessary.


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## BlackCat (Sep 22, 2011)

I'd appreciate you experts take on an incident I had with my Lobo many years ago. He was my first GSD and I bought him from a reputable breeder, Fernheim GSDs. I got him at 8 weeks of age and started him in puppy kindergarten as soon as I could. We eventually went through advanced obedience classes, though I wasn't really interested in competition. 
I don't know that he was dog aggressive, he never started anything with other dogs. On walks, in the park, out hiking, he would pretty much ignore them but did want them to keep their distance. One time, however, he really reacted poorly and it was when another dog attacked him. 
We were walking in our subdivision early in the morning, when a neighbor came out of his house to get his paper. He let his two dogs out, off lead. I saw them and Lobo and I crossed the street, just to avoid any problems. The older dog, a retriever of some sort just walked to the sidewalk and laid down. The smaller one, a poodle mix I think, started barking and the guy called him. Lobo and I kept walking on the other side of the street. We passed the house, and the guy was headed back to his porch, when the poodle mix came tearing after us. I turned to meet the dog, yelling at him to "GO! HOME!" He ran around me and jumped at Lobo's face. I don't know if he actually made contact or not because Lobo jerked the leash clean out of my hand and took off after this little dog. In just a couple of yards, Lobo caught him and rolled him with his mouth around the dog's middle. I had been yelling at Lobo to come, but he completely ignored me until he caught the other dog. Then he let go and trotted right back to me. The poodle mix jumped up and scooted right back home to the guy who had been shouting uselessly for him to come back. I apologized to the fellow for Lobo's behavior and he told me the dog was just wet where Lobo had mouthed him. 
He said, "If he is stupid enough to take on your big dog, he deserved it." 
I didn't know what to say to that. If he had kept his dog inside, or on a leash, the whole incident wouldn't have happened. 
Thanks in advance.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> So if Kira decided yesterday to put the overbearing GSD on her back, how should I have felt about that?


Not happy or proud, that's for sure. I would be really concerned if a young pup did that. If she "won", she's more likely to repeat the behavior whenever she feels threatened. And since she's easily threatened, it could become a default behavior--"I'm gonna get you before you get me".

A friend of mine had a GSD with that problem. He was horribly dog-aggressive because his owner allowed him to be attacked several times as a puppy. Like you, she was "proud" when he "stood up for himself" by fighting back. She had to pay out a lot of money in vet bills for dogs he attacked in his lifetime, and he was a constant liability. Had to keep him muzzled when she took him out in public. He also bit a child in the face--how he escaped that with his life, I don't know. 

He was, like your Kira, a low-threshold dog, and was easily intimidated as a pup. His owner wanted him to be "tough", and encouraged aggression. The poor dog probably thought he was doing what he was supposed to.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just like with people there's always gonna be someone bigger and badder out there.

When assessing dogs for service you have to cat test them. 
There's dogs who are friends with cats, there's dogs who will chase but not hurt kitty, there's dogs who will chase kitty but if kitty doesn't run, they'll back off when kitty arches it's back and hisses at the dog.
Then there's dogs who will get enraged and try to attack and harm kitty when they see the cat arch it's back and hiss. 

Years ago I took a dog from the shelter to the prison in Gig Harbor where they have a service dog training program. Well, the pup was perfect in every way except he was the latter kind of dog and wanted to hurt kitty. He took kitty's arching and hissing as a challenge and wanted to eat that cat. So he flunked 

My point is...your dog got lucky this time, and the other dog backed off. Like the dog who flunked out of training (taking the cat's arching as a challenge), you're going to eventually encounter a dog that will take her "challenge", up the ante and whip her butt. 
Just because she managed to ward off the oncoming dog this time doesn't mean next time it will work, and even if she gained confidence from that session, that's not necessarily a good thing, because you're going to eventually run into a dog who won't back down but will be happy about fighting and harming your dog.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep;2359060[I said:


> ]Not happy or proud, that's for sure. I would be really concerned if a young pup did that. If she "won", she's more likely to repeat the behavior whenever she feels threatened. And since she's easily threatened, it could become a default behavior--"I'm gonna get you before you get me".[/I]
> 
> _A friend of mine had a GSD with that problem. He was horribly dog-aggressive because his owner allowed him to be attacked several times as a puppy. Like you, she was "proud" when he "stood up for himself" by fighting back. She had to pay out a lot of money in vet bills for dogs he attacked in his lifetime, and he was a constant liability. Had to keep him muzzled when she took him out in public. He also bit a child in the face--how he escaped that with his life, I don't know. _
> 
> ...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> You do realize that that is merely impossible because horses and dogs know way ahead of you that something else is out there, right?
> 
> I don't know, but I'd rather read and feel my horses bodylanguage instead of being so darn concentrated on my surroundings that I possibly MISS what my horse is trying to tell me.
> 
> The bodylanguage of your horse can tell you much much more and a lot faster than your eyes can canvas the area.


Mrs K - experience from doing endurance riding -- sure the horse senses something , sometimes not -the point is that the rider is aware of the situation to take appropriate control . You do not want to be passively sitting on the horse and the horse decides what it needs or wants to do , which is to run - Saw plenty of that going out with a trail riding club . Know what you are dealing with , give the horse its head , tell them what you want them to do . An emotional animal needs to be given that calm and security that comes from the rider .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> I just want today one more thing......
> 
> This board has a "pack mentality".
> 
> ...


Anthony don't know what or who you are referring to . A consensus does not equal a pack. Not seeing this . I think people speak freely and independantly on this forum.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Plus if you have 50 people telling you you were wrong, it might just be that you were wrong


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> As well as watching the ear play and listening to the breething. First it's the ear play. They hear something. Then the body tightens up and the breething changes.


by then it is already to late because the horse is already in that emotional state , which you will have to turn around. Meanwhile if you are on the same page and aware then you put on the leg and say go forward -- the horse reads YOU , senses your calm and confidence. Why wait and sense that you have an upset horse underneath you. Why sit there and then be scared when the horse runs , bolts, rears -- the more surprised and panicked and scared you are the more the horse will flee.
Here is an example where you need to look ahead.
One of my last outings was an invitation to ride with an all-ladies riding club , 5 hours straight in the saddle - thank god my horses are the "cadillac" rocky mountain gaited horses. Any way we are heading back an alternative route to the trailers . Well if one lady doesn't hit some brush which disturbs a hornets or bees nest up in the tree. Another lady panics when these insects swarm - she is allergic but she does carry an epi pen , and we always carry a full med- kit and pens with us -- her sheer fright , spooks the horse who gallops faster than some of the grade-B cowboy movies, lady not in control , hanging on for life . Someone finally got up beside the horse and was able to control it. Another fear was that the horse was running blind and heading toward the busy roadway. So there , the horse was not afraid of the bugs or the cars -- and would have run onto the road -- handler preparedness by knowing what is in your surroundings .
Be prepared . 
A good trainer , dogs , horses , lions is always aware of the state of the animals mind - and is prepared to guide the correct - desirable behaviour.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

To the original poster,I wouldn't worry about it at all. One incident defines or proves nothing. Hopefully the other owner and dog learned something.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> The more I read, the more I see that many of you have had the same experience as I did.
> Very interesting.
> 
> So if Kira decided yesterday to put the overbearing GSD on her back, how should I have felt about that?
> ...


My thoughts are that if Kira had accomplished that, she has reached the point of really getting herself in trouble. Meaning she may be brave enough next time to try the same thing and be the one hurt.

I've always liked reading the posts on Kira and realize there has been some issues with other dogs. Kira is at a tipping point. With work and guidance, she should be able to regain her confidence. If something like this happens again she could slip on into DA.

If a behaviorist isn't involved yet, I would really be thinking about contacting one. It may only take a couple of visits, you and she would begin learning some skills to help her. It would also be another set of eyes to see what signals she may be giving.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> by then it is already to late because the horse is already in that emotional state , which you will have to turn around. Meanwhile if you are on the same page and aware then you put on the leg and say go forward -- the horse reads YOU , senses your calm and confidence. Why wait and sense that you have an upset horse underneath you. Be prepared .
> A good trainer , dogs , horses , lions is always aware of the state of the animals mind - and is prepared to guide the correct - desirable behaviour.


Sorry, but most of the time, when we were out in the woods, we couldn't see or hear anything at all while you could watch the ear play. It's very subtle, going back and forth. There was no emotional state involved. Our human senses are nowhere near a horses or dogs senses and most of the time they can hear stuff while we think everything is okay and have no clue whats going on around us even though we are super hyper sensitively canvasing the area. THAT is what I'm talking about.
And if you have to turn around a horse because the body is tightening, the ears play and they blow out some air... then maybe that rider shouldn't be out in the woods all by himself in the first place. 

Heck, I put the reins on the neck, was completely relaxed, reading a book, not canvasing the area at all and simply let her go our usual route and knew exactly if something was coming our way because her head popped up.... sometimes overthinking things "WHAT COULD HAPPEN" makes things worse than being totally relaxed and just trust yourself and the horse.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> You may not realize it, but I am very grateful that you've changed my way of thinking.


All of us are here to help, really! Even if we sometimes get frustrated or grumpy in our replies, always know we have the best interest of the dog at heart. None of us are perfect, and that's why this forum exists. To help each other.

I love it when new dog owners hear good advice and take it to heart... keep it up, and you two are going to be great partners.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

One more thing that should and needs to be said, which goes for both, dogs and horses. 


If you are stiff, trying to avoid everything, nervously canvasing the area and scared that something could happen: Dogs and Horses will pick up on that. 

Everybody says that you should be on everything a 100% of the time and need to be aware of everything. Just accept the fact that you can't do that and DO NOT beat yourself up over it. 
If you get anxious because you are trying to be the super-perfect dog owner and try to protect her from the world... she will pick up on that. 

There is a German phrase, the literal translation would be: Everybody is cooking with water
Meaning that none of us is special in what we do and that we all had to start learning at some point. 

It is important that in whatever you do, remain calm, relaxed, cool. Don't get anxious, don't be scared, don't stiffen up trying to accomplish something that is merely impossible. 

Just like I said with the horse in another post. If you are in tune with your pet, whether it be a horse or a dog, it's better to relax and calm instead of stiffening up and frantically searching the area for something "that could happen" because thats exactly when stuff happen. 

Be aware of your surroundings but don't overdo it. There is no 100%. If you concentrate of what is going on around us then we don't concentrate of what is right there in front of us, which is our pets. Just be aware but don't try too hard. Let it come to you naturally and you'll get better at reading your dog and the area you are in. Don't try to rush it and set yourself under stress. If you are stressed, the dog is stressed and thats when they decide to be in charge because they can't trust you as a leader and the majority of the time that is why they seem to be or become dog aggressive, leash reactive in the first place. 
90% of the time it's the handlers fault. Not the dogs fault.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> by then it is already to late because the horse is already in that emotional state , which you will have to turn around. Meanwhile if you are on the same page and aware then you put on the leg and say go forward -- the horse reads YOU , senses your calm and confidence. Why wait and sense that you have an upset horse underneath you. Be prepared .
> A good trainer , dogs , horses , lions is always aware of the state of the animals mind - and is prepared to guide the correct - desirable behaviour.





Mrs.K said:


> And if you have to turn around a horse because the body is tightening, the ears play and they blow out some air... then maybe that rider shouldn't be out in the woods all by himself in the first place.


Think there might be a misunderstanding here. I think what carmspack is saying is that if you wait, then you have to turn the emotional state around from nervous/fear back to calm/confidence. Not that you have to literally turn the horse around and go back.

That said, part of the way we trained horses involved riding them through contrived frightening situations (puffs of baby powder, hissing of an empty fire extinguisher, etc.) and showing them that they could depend on their rider to make the judgement call. It didn't matter if they were initially afraid. You showed them your confidence and determination to continue through your seat, steady leg pressure and hands and they would go through it.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I only read the first and last page so sorry if this is a repeat.

I am so excited from my new knowledge gained from reading my book about fear aggressive dogs and my trainer's advice that may help you out....

Because Rocky has been traumatized by a few off leash dogs and I now know what his fear "triggers" are, we are learning the OUT command.

He isn't perfect at it yet, far from it, but basically what you do is you teach your dog a quick way to turn away form something you know he will react to.

Once taught perfectly, when you say OUT, your dog will instantly jump to your left side at a lope and ya'll will walk or jog away quickly from the problem. Regardless if your dog is heeling already or sniffing around, this command will make it instantly get to your side so you can walk away and avoid confrontation.

Because we often walk on trails that have sharp turns, I can't see who is coming around the corner. Because Rocky is fearful and can possibly turn fear aggressive, he is not supposed to be meeting strangers right now. We are only supposed to be watching from a distance and treating when he ignores them. However, I still have to take him on walks and although he is good with 90% of people, HATS and overweight people are his fearful triggers. We can walk by anyone else without a response, but I want to be able to quickly get away from his triggers the second I spot them because I don't want to push him to soon.

Perhaps this could help if you see a dog you know your dog is aggressive towards?

Hope I helped!
-------------
Also, a good idea would be to sit down and make a list of your dogs triggers (things that make it fearful or aggressive) and be very specific so you can work on them. For example, with ROcky's fear of overweight people, later on in our training I will introduce him to normal people, then slightly chubby people, then overweight people, etc. I won't try to get him to take a treat from a very large person at petsmart on the very first day. This would be overwhelming.

Some people think the way to train the dog is to force them to be near the thing they fear until they give up. However, this is like putting aperson afraid of cockroaches in a box with them with no goggles or ear plugs until they stop screaming. Not good!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

chicagojosh said:


> wow
> 
> Anthony I think some of the reply's you got were way overboard. I don't think Kira will be fear - aggressive from this. raising Cody on the sidewalks of Chicago, we had thousands of encounters with leashed and unleashed dogs. Some went ok, some got aggressive. and he is stable. he's nice and can play with other dogs and walk right by them without issue.
> 
> ...


 
hi - if you go back over the dogs history you will see why people are worried about the dog resorting to fear aggression . This is a soft dog who feels pressure and at this point runs to avoid .
The advice given is to prevent the dog from resorting to another fear based strategy. One is flight , the other is fight. 
This is the time to do it .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

BINGO - this chicagojosh is exactly what we are saying to Anthony quote Freestep
" she's more likely to repeat the behavior whenever she feels threatened. And since she's easily threatened, it could become a default behavior--"I'm gonna get you before you get me".

repeat - and since she's easily threatened


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Well I smiled and thought "Go Kira!".
> 
> Sure, maybe not the behavior any of us want for our dogs, but Kira had been harassed by this dog before and it seems like the other dogs owner didn't help the situations any.


 Yeah-but what if that other dog was a chihuahua or a maltese?? They tend to aggregate too..Just saying..
Jan


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Twyla said:


> My thoughts are that if Kira had accomplished that, she has reached the point of really getting herself in trouble. Meaning she may be brave enough next time to try the same thing and be the one hurt.
> 
> I've always liked reading the posts on Kira and realize there has been some issues with other dogs. Kira is at a tipping point. With work and guidance, she should be able to regain her confidence. If something like this happens again she could slip on into DA.
> 
> If a behaviorist isn't involved yet, I would really be thinking about contacting one. It may only take a couple of visits, you and she would begin learning some skills to help her. It would also be another set of eyes to see what signals she may be giving.


 
you know what? your right , but dogs that are fear aggressive tend to do this .... follow ... they rush in really fast , default , hope that their bluff will scare off the other guy . BUT , they rush in cause further aggressive response on the other end and then they RETREAT leaving you in the lurch . They don't figt to win or fight to finish , they agitate , rush in nip and retreat. 

You see this is schutzhund many many times . A dog gathers up false courage or is anxious, bites out of fear , crummy little frontal bite , body well back , let go , move , often step back then go forward again . If the decoy were to drive forward the dog would avoid. That is why you see more decoy work with the decoy travelling with the dog away from where the dog launched from instead of driving the dog backward , because the dog would let go.

lack of confidence in self.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually double bingo on repeating the behavior..

this gets old I know, but this is exactly what Masi ended up doing after that stupid puppy class ,, any dog at that point, Masi went into defense mode, and this was just 3 classes at which time I pulled her out, had to rework all the 'bad' experiences perceived by her, thank god, she bounced back , matured out, and now could care less about dogs (tho I admit she still hates goldens) 

But I admit, I really thought I ruined her by listening to someone whom I "thought" was going to be a good trainer I really should have known better especially with a 4 month old puppy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

stealthq said:


> Think there might be a misunderstanding here. I think what carmspack is saying is that if you wait, then you have to turn the emotional state around from nervous/fear back to calm/confidence. Not that you have to literally turn the horse around and go back.
> 
> That said, part of the way we trained horses involved riding them through contrived frightening situations (puffs of baby powder, hissing of an empty fire extinguisher, etc.) and showing them that they could depend on their rider to make the judgement call. It didn't matter if they were initially afraid.
> 
> You showed them your confidence and determination to continue through your seat, steady leg pressure and hands and they would go through it.


that is exactly right. 
thanks


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Carmen, marry me.


we'll see , what's involved , do I have to be a personal chef -- thanks a bunch made my day lol


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> BINGO - this chicagojosh is exactly what we are saying to Anthony quote Freestep
> " she's more likely to repeat the behavior whenever she feels threatened. And since she's easily threatened, it could become a default behavior--"I'm gonna get you before you get me".
> 
> repeat - and since she's easily threatened


I fully understand.

What would you recommend as a daily program geared towards a reprogramming?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony get her into that class or work with someone who knows what they are doing.
When you post we only get a bit of the picture.
Example - "kira got a pair" , because you thought her rushing the dog hackles up was courage , in reality she was scared . We don't know what you did after. Did you praise the dog? If so you have reinforced an undesirable behavior.
The incident in the dog park where she bolted from the gaze of Bruno , what happened after the video ended . Did you collect her and in your disappointment drag her off , she being sensitive would have felt this and not connected your emotional state to what happened moments ago , but to you collecting her and putting her on lead . So another problem - she may percieve this as pressure and unpleasant . The next time she is off lead and runs she may be harder to catch or recall.

Carmen


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Anthony get her into that class or work with someone who knows what they are doing.


been saying that all along...


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony get her into that class or work with someone who knows what they are doing.
> When you post we only get a bit of the picture.
> Example - "kira got a pair" , because you thought her rushing the dog hackles up was courage , in reality she was scared . We don't know what you did after. Did you praise the dog? If so you have reinforced an undesirable behavior.
> The incident in the dog park where she bolted from the gaze of Bruno , what happened after the video ended . Did you collect her and in your disappointment drag her off , she being sensitive would have felt this and not connected your emotional state to what happened moments ago , but to you collecting her and putting her on lead . So another problem - she may percieve this as pressure and unpleasant . The next time she is off lead and runs she may be harder to catch or recall.
> ...


I'll address both incidents.

After Kira barked at the other dog, I turned and continued walking. I didnt praise her. I pulled her o ff, and started walking away.
About 20 feet away, we came across her friend (the white dog in one of her videos). They both wanted to play, and were wagging tails and playing as they were in the video. I didn't stay, instead, I called her off and continued walking.

After the Bruno incident, I did nothing. Bruno never came near her. She continued to observe from a distance, but didn't engage.

Also to mention, ... We are in obedience class. There are about 8 dogs in class, ages 5 -8 months. In class, she just sat there, and listened to me. She couldn't care what other dogs were there.


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

This incident reminds me of one of the many reasons I am thankful for my bad leg... when unwelcomed dogs get in my dog's face, a good whack with my carbon fiber cane usually sets them straight. Thankfully I've only had to do it twice.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

webzpinner said:


> This incident reminds me of one of the many reasons I am thankful for my bad leg... when unwelcomed dogs get in my dog's face, a good whack with my carbon fiber cane usually sets them straight. Thankfully I've only had to do it twice.


Comments like this concern me more than my dog.

What's worse, dog aggression or human aggression?

Sure, baby your dog, and protect it. But if someone else's dog enters your space, it's ok to whack it with a cane.
What if the other dog was a friendly dog?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Also to mention, ... We are in obedience class. There are about 8 dogs in class, ages 5 -8 months. In class, she just sat there, and listened to me. She couldn't care what other dogs were there.


In the class, with 8 dogs, does the trainer have the time to observe and address the issues your pup is having? The signals given can be so small, tightening of the facial features, dilation of pupils..


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

I am sorry that happened to Kira. It really is a textbook example of something that can easily further trigger negative reactions. It really hit home with me because I have a shy dog. I have invested a lot of time working with her around other dogs and doing everything I can to make everything positive. It is challenging. We are polar opposites because my first reaction was never pride when my dog had a fear reaction. Unfortunately, things do happen and we can't undo them. I hope that you take and put into action the advice that people have given here. Good luck in continuing to work with Kira.


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## Sambuca (Mar 13, 2010)

My personal opinion is that this one "incident" is being totally blown out of proporation. It was one event and little detail was provided.

In this day of the Dog Whisperer everyone has become an expert on dog training and is always quick to point out what's wrong or how things should have went down in any given situation.

I say good for Kira for sticking up for herself!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

She's been fine since.

Today, we had a play date with a 135 pound Rottie, and a Boxer.
She had a blast!!!

I see no sign of dog aggression, and if anything, she's gotten so much better around other dogs.

I've been avoiding the dog parks, and only making special arrangements with stable, friendly dogs... and their owners.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

anthony8858 said:


> she's been fine since.
> 
> Today, we had a play date with a 135 pound rottie, and a boxer.
> She had a blast!!!
> ...


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

hi anthony;

i loved the picture of kira smileling. sorry to hear about the other dog incodent. i take my puppy everywhere, hiking, parks, work etc and if i had a dime for everytime i hear an owner of a unleashed dog say "oh, they are very dog friendly" id be a rich woman. a few times this was not the case and i had to intervene, i can happen in just a second, no one is perfect you do the best you can. good luck to you and kira, beautiful dog by the way


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> hi anthony;
> 
> i loved the picture of kira smileling. sorry to hear about the other dog incodent. i take my puppy everywhere, hiking, parks, work etc and if i had a dime for everytime i hear an owner of a unleashed dog say "oh, they are very dog friendly" id be a rich woman. a few times this was not the case and i had to intervene, i can happen in just a second, no one is perfect you do the best you can. good luck to you and kira, beautiful dog by the way


Thanks.

I've been a member here for 4 months. In those months, I've learned so much from the people here. Whether as a result of a mistake, or by reading and asking routine questions.
As a result, Kira is turning out to be more than I ever could have imagined. She's terrific.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Anthony8858 said:


> *I've been avoiding the dog parks,* and only making special arrangements with stable, friendly dogs... and their owners.


Your love for your beautiful girl shows


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Yes, and she knows it too. 

Today, I was out a local park area. It was 16 degrees at 7am, and we were walking along the beach and park area. ( I live beach front)

Soon after, a few people show up with their dogs. One dog was playing with a soccer ball, and the woman had the audacity to warn ME that her dog was possessive, and I should take precautions to make sure Kira doesn't go near her dog.
I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I had no intention of staying, and allowing Kira to play with these dogs, so it didn't matter, but just one of the reasons why everyone here was SO RIGHT about the dog parks.

We THINK they're good for our dogs. Instead of playing with dogs, she plays with me, and as a result, her attentiveness, has been super. When we're out, it's me, her, and what I want her to be doing.
I like it that way.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's so awesome. 
I wish more people understood we don't want to take away their fun. Just make it safer!
The way I see it...there's so many risks we can do nothing about. This is one we can.


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## Sambuca (Mar 13, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Yes, and she knows it too.
> 
> One dog was playing with a soccer ball, and the woman had the audacity to warn ME that her dog was possessive, and I should take precautions to make sure Kira doesn't go near her dog.
> I couldn't believe what I was hearing.


This is how my dog was bitten at the dog park. The lady knows her dog is possessive yet decides to play ball with him inside a dog park right in the middle of everyone so she can socialize with other owners.

My dog went to pick up a ball on the ground when the lady's 8 MONTH OLD big him on his face. She didn't even come over to apologize. I told her off pretty good though.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Sambuca said:


> This is how my dog was bitten at the dog park. The lady knows her dog is possessive yet decides to play ball with him inside a dog park right in the middle of everyone so she can socialize with other owners.
> 
> My dog went to pick up a ball on the ground when the lady's 8 MONTH OLD big him on his face. She didn't even come over to apologize. I told her off pretty good though.


That lady is no lady. Seems all too common for people to assume we will stop our dogs from acting normal or protecting themselves because their dog is aggressive for one reason or another... or that it is our (or our dog's fault) for not taking into account their dog's aberrations.


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## 2GSDmom (Aug 4, 2011)

Ooh, boy!--I feel for you Anthony!--I've never seen that kind of a feeding frenzy outside of the Great Barrier Reef! 

As for your pride in Kira--Go right ahead..She deserves it. No, Virginia, not every defensive response is a bad thing. She's a dog---not a ticking timebomb. Just as "calming behaviors" (also known as "submissive signals") are used by canines to avoid conflict--canines also will use "dominant signals" and behaviors to "teach" other canines "proper" behaviors. This sometimes includes, "I'm sick of your [email protected]#$...leave me alone". If your dog reverts to _normal _immediately afterwards, this is all that was occuring--If on the other hand, if the dog remains in a combative state--you have a problem... Sounds like your Kira did exactly what she was _supposed_ to do in order to *school* the bully.

As for putting yourself in between aggressing dogs--Are these people NUTS? That has got to be one of the silliest things to go the rounds in current fashion. "I'll heal"?...SO will your dog---and it has a protective layer of hair--which humans do not. Lord knows, I love my dogs to pieces--but I'm no good to them ripped to smithereens. Get yourself BEHIND and pull the dogs apart--by their rear legs, if necessary--then remove them from the vicinity(preferably out of sight) of the other dog.

Not every "soft" dog is a timid or fearful dog. They just require a gentler and steadier training approach. "Soft" dogs can be made fearful by too forceful of training techniques---this is why forced "socializing" isn't a good idea for them. It's like throwing a child leery of the pool into the water to teach him to swim. It doesn't mean they're chicken--but they will be if you force it.

Sounds like you're doing very well for a newbie--Mrs. K is cool beans--she's absolutely right--if we were perfect, we wouldn't need dogs, now, would we?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

2GSDmom said:


> Ooh, boy!--I feel for you Anthony!--I've never seen that kind of a feeding frenzy outside of the Great Barrier Reef!
> 
> As for your pride in Kira--Go right ahead..She deserves it. No, Virginia, not every defensive response is a bad thing. She's a dog---not a ticking timebomb. Just as "calming behaviors" (also known as "submissive signals") are used by canines to avoid conflict--canines also will use "dominant signals" and behaviors to "teach" other canines "proper" behaviors. This sometimes includes, "I'm sick of your [email protected]#$...leave me alone". If your dog reverts to _normal _immediately afterwards, this is all that was occuring--If on the other hand, if the dog remains in a combative state--you have a problem... Sounds like your Kira did exactly what she was _supposed_ to do in order to *school* the bully.
> 
> ...


She's been great since the incident. No issues or signs of aggression towards dogs or humans. She's now 7 months, and very stable. I can walk anywhere with her.
Just yesterday, we went to Petco, and they had the Rescues there. Maybe 10 dogs in a very small area. She just sat next to me, while I chatted. Couldn't care less. 
That's the way I wanted it.


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## SophieGSD (Feb 6, 2012)

I agree with the others. If you SAW this other dog coming, you should have TURNED YOURS AWAY and walked off. I honestly highly doubt you were walking through a cattle chute that inhibited you from maybe walking to the other side of the street, or turning away for a while until the other dog passed.

Or maybe you should have asked the other owner "Hey, can you keep your dog away? It CLEARLY makes mine uncomfortable, and it's not just puppy play. This can get dangerous. Please take your dog away from mine."

No big deal.
Random attacks like that don't just happen once. It'll happen again, and if your dog throws the first punch, YOU are the one paying the vet bills. YOU are the one giving in to the media's reputation that Shepherds are mean, vicious animals.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

SophieGSD said:


> I agree with the others. If you SAW this other dog coming, you should have TURNED YOURS AWAY and walked off. I honestly highly doubt you were walking through a cattle chute that inhibited you from maybe walking to the other side of the street, or turning away for a while until the other dog passed.
> 
> Or maybe you should have asked the other owner "Hey, can you keep your dog away? It CLEARLY makes mine uncomfortable, and it's not just puppy play. This can get dangerous. Please take your dog away from mine."
> 
> ...


Whoa!
Did you read the whole thread?

No attack whatsoever.

She just barked back at the meanie. I wouldn't qualify that as grounds for giving the media's reputation that Shepherds are mean.


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## SophieGSD (Feb 6, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> Whoa!
> Did you read the whole thread?
> 
> No attack whatsoever.
> ...


You missed my point. And apparently several others.
I said IF your dog attacked.
Because IF she did attack and hurt the other dog, the other owner may decide that "Hey, that dog is mean and the owner doesn't know how to control it. If my dog's hurt, they're paying the vet bills!"

Also, did you not know that in the '80s the US tried to erraticate the breed? Why else would they be on a restricted/aggressive breeds list? Definitely not because unknowing people thing they're big teddy bears. The media advertises German Shepherds as ruthless killers and fighters, and a danger to people and their children. (I've seen several movies that have mean G-Sheps in them, that attack people.) People also see the K9 unit police dogs, and automatically think that if that dog is attacking a criminal, then they'll likely attack random people that they just don't like. But, because they don't know about the breed, they don't realize that the police work is all command-based.

So yeah. IF someone sees your dog hypothetically "attacking" someone or someone else's dog, yeah. You're playing into the media-given bad reputation.


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## KaiserGSDLove (Oct 21, 2010)

SophieGSD said:


> You missed my point. And apparently several others.
> I said IF your dog attacked.
> Because IF she did attack and hurt the other dog, the other owner may decide that "Hey, that dog is mean and the owner doesn't know how to control it. If my dog's hurt, they're paying the vet bills!"
> 
> ...


You're being a little harsh. He admitted it might not of been the best response but it's the way he responded in that instant. He has gotten many responses and some good advice for the future. Maybe instead of some criticizing how he didn't respond the way how others would we should give helpful preventive tips in a not such a harsh matter.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

2GSDmom -- keep on reading . Not one person said that Anthony's dog was a ticking time bomb . The opposite. She displayed fear . She was a young dog in situations that were uncomfortable for her putting her into a flight mode . 
I think Anthony has done a superb job in his quickness to understand what was going on and to take reins in the situation to turn it around . 
Just look at this " She's been great since the incident. No issues or signs of aggression towards dogs or humans. She's now 7 months, and very stable. I can walk anywhere with her.
Just yesterday, we went to Petco, and they had the Rescues there. Maybe 10 dogs in a very small area. She just sat next to me, while I chatted. Couldn't care less. 
That's the way I wanted it"
Isn't that good !!
Now when he goes out , the dog is relaxed, he is relaxed , and everyone that sees him wishes their dog was like his. I mean, look at the picture in the avatar . 
Will there be other problems - sure . Anthony can handle it and the dog will know it belongs to a group that looks out for one another.

good going Anthony.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

SophieGSD said:


> You missed my point. And apparently several others.
> I said IF your dog attacked.
> Because IF she did attack and hurt the other dog, the other owner may decide that "Hey, that dog is mean and the owner doesn't know how to control it. If my dog's hurt, they're paying the vet bills!"
> 
> ...


Oh please. Stop blowing it out of proportion.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I have a headache


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

This thread is old. Very old. Things are very different now.


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