# Gunbil German Shepherds



## Cheza

I am interested in purchasing a imported German Shepherd from Gunbil in a couple of months, most likely a female.
Any feedback about Gunbil or insights you may have about there rep in the breeding community the kinds of german shepherds they produce would be greatly appreciated, they seem like a reupitable breeder. 
At the moment it looks like when I do purchase my GSD it will be from them, so what guys do think?

Also if you know of a great breeder post a link in your reply so I can check them out as well, thanks!


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## szariksdad

Are you looking for a showline? Also if you are in the Colorado area there are better breeders than these guys to visit. I did do a email and visit with them while looking and walked away.


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## Cheza

I'm looking for a 'working class' GSD not showline, I live in Ontario Canada so my puppy will have to be shipped to me.


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## NancyJ

All you have to do is look at their webpage to realize they carry showlines. I have no experience with them or with showline dogs but Carmen Duggan on this fourm (carmpsack) is in Ontario I believe.................and breeds true working GSDS...I also have no experience with her or her dogs.

Probably want to clarify your intent as you may need to take some time to really learn the different type of GSDs. It is not uncommon for someone to think all import GSD lines are the same. There are vast differences between various european GSD types.


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## Chris Wild

Cheza said:


> I'm looking for a 'working class' GSD not showline,


Gunbil is German show lines, not working lines. So if you're looking for working bloodlines this wouldn't be the right place.


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## GSDElsa

Maybe take a step back and think about what you're really looking for in a dog and let people know here as what your intent seems to be and what you're looking at are 2 different things.


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## Cheza

jocoyn, I will look into carmpsack,

Thanks for all the replies,

In a nutshell I'm looking for a GSD with 'working lines' thats protective of its owner, affectionate an playful, not to much to ask for.


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## szariksdad

If you want working line and are in Canada i believe we have the breeder carmspack and another one on here recently that are up your way. I would maybe go to some of your local working clubs and talk to the GSD owners to see where they got there dogs from and what they liked about that breeder.


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## Cheza

szariksdad, carmspack looks like they breed the kind of gsd I'd like to bring home, I really don't mind if its all black or the traditional coat as along as it's healthy and has a authentic gsd temperament.


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## GSDElsa

In the US, but close to you is Claudia Romard who is going to have a litter this summer and Pia Blackwell.


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## carmspack

Thanks everyone for your kind thoughts.

Cheza if you want to PM me I'd like to find out more about you.

I look for very solid temperament. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## mnm

** If you have something negative to say, please take it private. Thank you. ADMIN **

You are saying that you want 'working lines', but I am not sure you really know what working lines really mean. What you described initally was a show line dog that would be a good family companion and yet protective of his family. Many dogs are like this without specifying show or working lines. I think that you need to be completely honest with yourself about what your lifestyle and family life is like. Do you have kids? young or older? Do you have an active life. How much time will be spent with the puppy? How much time will you give to it when it gets older. How much time for training will you have. 

I do not know how much you know about the German Shepherd breed, but in any litter, show or working lines, there might be a puppy that would be suitable to your lifestyle. The key is to really know what you want. Find a breeder that you feel comfortable with, who has the kind of dogs that you'd like to have , and begin there. Develop a relationship with them, gain lots of knowledge about their dogs, and specifically ones that you might be interested in a puppy from. Let them know exactly what you want in your puppy. If you can, go and meet them and the parents of the puppies. If you are not able to do that, but have a very good feeling about the breeder, do some asking around about them, just like you did here.

There are several breeders on here that come highly recommended. Best advice I can give you is to take some time and do some research. 

Goodluck!!!


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## Cheza

@mnm, I'm bleeding from the ears with research about german shepherds, heh, for past month I've been constantly reading about the bloodlines, difference between show and worklines, the hole 'sloped back' issue which is mainly predominate in the shows lines, the difference in temperament, there really is a lot,

I know when I do get my pup I will take the absolute best care of it thats for sure, I'm not going to feed it that kibble crap either, I'll get a good old fashioned meat grinder some vegetables and raw meat, chicken or beef? 

I've already watched a couple Leerburg DVD's, Bite Training Puppies, Building Drive Grip & Focus, First Steps of Bite Training, How to Raise Working Puppy, Power of Dog Training with Food, Basic Dog Training. 
They all have a lot of useful information that was news to me, great stuff.

@carmspack, thanks, I'll do that.


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## onyx'girl

Cheza, you can never research too much! And taking time to learn more about the breed will benefit your puppy as much as you. I agree with all the posts that suggest going to training clubs and looking at dogs if you can. Then you'll get a feel for what you like, or don't with the different lines.
I would also look at the sticky:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
I wish you luck in your search, exiting times ahead for you!!
Did you view the Michael Ellis video clips on Leerburgs site? They are excellent and free. Worth spending a night viewing! http://leerburg.com/stream/videolistcat.php?cat=Michael Ellis


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## Cheza

@onyx'girl, wow look at all those video's I didn't know those were up, will be watching them this weekend thanks..


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## cliffson1

Carmspack can provide you with what you described, good solid temperament, which will be able to adjust to your lifestyle as long os its not abusive or neglectful.


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## wolfstraum

Gunbil is a large quantity importer - reseller and producer....a business...and as others say - West German Showlines....

Carmen (Carmspack) is in Canada, and there are other breeders in Canada as well - although not on the boards...

Lee


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## holland

If you say negetive comments in a different way does that make it better? Just curious-

But there are some excellent breeders in Canada


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## Cheza

Thanks for all the help everyone, I'm total thrilled about bringing home a pup in the near future, me and my dog are going to be like glue


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## Dr. Teeth

I give Gunbil an A+. My first GSD was from them in 2002 and I will be getting my next dog from them this year. Gunbil knows the breed, honors the standard, and produces excellent dogs as should be expected. 
This is what I can tell you: The quality of the dogs is amazing, the owner is very ethical. If you "order" a pup and get 1st pick, or second pick for instance they will honor that and hand pick the best pup based on the qualities you ask for. They won't just send you the last pup to go. In 2002 I visited most of the Colorado GSD breeders or talked to them on the phone, not one came close to having quality, and a good breeding environment. They have a good sized breeding program because that's what it takes to make complimentary matches, with consistent results.

PS My Gunbil dog was a show dog, that was trained with amazing protection skills, and still let the kids tug on his ears. I would only pick a working line if I was doing police work, or nationally competitive Schutzhund.


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## NancyJ

Dr. Teeth said:


> . I would only pick a working line if I was doing police work, or nationally competitive Schutzhund.


I am glad you had a great experience , BUT there are many of us (and a lot on the forum) who do neither police work or nationally competitve schutzhund who have owned showlines and feel the working lines are really better dogs - in terms of structure (compared to german showlines) and temperament, and working ability.

I had no comment on the specific breeder because I have not bought a showline dog for over a decade.

I think the best advice is for the OP to meet and learn representatives from the different lines to make a decision.


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## Castlemaid

Dr. Teeth: Well, people are entitled to their preference. Though as Nancy said, lots of people have working lines as family dogs and do neither high level Schutzhund nor police work, and their dog fit into their lifestyle seamlessly.

Mine was raised with small children around, and cuddles with my cats. Yet has the seriousness in Schutzhund that an international level competitor wanted to jokingly kidnap him and take him home. 

Don't see why a well balanced working line wouldn't work?


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## Dr. Teeth

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a good working line, but a lot of people are outright shocked when they see how well a show dog can do the same things. The working dogs I have trained had a little more "natural edge" to them. Quicker to bark, quicker to bite, and possibly more stamina if it had been tested...the kind of thing you would value as a cop. The working lines were also a little quicker to make the jump from doing bitework as a game to bitework for real. The show dogs tended to turn the alert off a little quicker when the handler was relaxed. Pick what you want, but the notion that GSD showlines are pretty little things to be admired is absolutely false.


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## NancyJ

The OP indicated a desire for a working dog and not a showline. 

I think several suggested to step back and LEARN about the variation in the breed. There are plenty of showlines and working lines people on the forum who get along just fine. No need to "defend" the showlines or downgrade the working lines.

The most stable dog I have every owned is my DDR/Czech male. Not reactive with a short fuse. Nice high thresholds. Best temperament I have ever seen on a dog. Safe dog. Very high drive dog with an off switch.

Not all working line dogs have short fuses I have seen a fair share of timid showlines. I am sure there are nice showline dogs just as there are stable not over-reactive working lines dogs. Some folks want to make the workinglines more sporty and others want solid working dogs so there is variation even there.

FWIW - I do SAR and I see more and more working line GSDs and very few showlines and our dogs have to be very level headed and not on the defense. At least on the East coast.....


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## Dr. Teeth

If I'm following the original post correctly, I believe someone is soliciting an opinion on Gunbil? a showline only breeder, and while there was a lot of practical information on where to get a working line in Canada, few answered the original post. Gunbil has awesome dogs. I'm only offering a pro showline opinion based on that specific breeder, and if you read my previous post I think it's positive toward working lines in general but acknowledges a purpose for choosing a working line.


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## GSDElsa

Dr. Teeth said:


> If I'm following the original post correctly, I believe someone is soliciting an opinion on Gunbil? a showline only breeder, and while there was a lot of practical information on where to get a working line in Canada, few answered the original post. Gunbil has awesome dogs. I'm only offering a pro showline opinion based on that specific breeder, and if you read my previous post I think it's positive toward working lines in general but acknowledges a purpose for choosing a working line.


 
Because the OP seemed to be confused. They were interested in Gunbil, yet specifically said they wanted a working line dog. Since Gunbil isn't a working line breeder, then obviously people are going to steer them away from that since they are confused as to what kind of breeders they are looking at and most certainly would NOT be getting a working line dog from Gunbil.


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## Cheza

I think showlines are great there is one reason why I am kind of shying away from them, it is not the case with all but I see a majority of these showline gsd have a slightly too sloped of a back when standing up straight.



Dr. Teeth said:


> The working dogs I have trained had a little more "natural edge" to them. Quicker to bark, quicker to bite, and possibly more stamina if it had been tested...the kind of thing you would value as a cop.


Thats why I am leaning towards the working line, those are the kinds of things I value in a dog, on the surface a dog should be happy go lucky wagging its tale always ready to play with its favorite toy but at its core a true gsd needs that 'natural edge' otherwise I might as well get myself a poodle 

I've been reading up on GSD DDR and well I'm impressed, I definitely want to adopt a 'Working Line DDR GSD' most likely a female and hopefully from Carmspack who I will keep in touch with,


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## Dr. Teeth

I think these post have brought out some good opinions. I will say that before anyone trys to purchase a dog out of state or out of country, you will be better off with a local breeder, where you can see the parents, see the facility, and test the puppy yourself. I would apply that to showline or working line. 

As some of the posts have mentioned, temperment of show vs work, temperment is not defined is fair, good, excellent, etc. - Temperment is "correct" or it's " not correct ". Any GSD that that displays a "not correct" temperment should never be breed or even trained in sport. And my comment on working lines"...quicker to bark, quicker to bite.." refers to when they were first asked to perform that task by their handlers... a very subtle difference. 

"A too much sloping back"- If you see "too much" this is a fault. But it's referred to as angulation and it has a correct or incorrect angle. Angulation by itself does not indicate poor hips. It was in many cases American breeders in the 1970's who failed to breed to the German standard, agressively seeking a "low" back end which caused the problems. This is why pure German dogs have been seen as healthier. They are angled correctly and bred only when hips have been tested for generations.


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## NancyJ

Cheza happens to LIVE in Ontario.......  

Been around enough to hear major arguments between German Showlines and Workinglines folks to know that the standard is and has been interpreted differently. Unlike Cheza I have met enough of the types to KNOW what I want. Probably something Cheza needs to do a little more research on and I believe is going to happen.


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## Cheza

My 2 new books just arrived in the mail, 

chapters.indigo.ca: The German Shepherd Today: Winifred Gibson Strickland, James A. Moses: Books

and

chapters.indigo.ca: German Shepherds For Dummies: D. Caroline Coile: Books

Great!


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## NancyJ

You know I don't think there are any good books that cover the showline workingline split and the various types of working lines though that shaw site is pretty good. Some good stuff on wildhaus kennels page too.

Ihave the strickland book and it is, to me, dated and more focused on amlines - though she was more into REAL GSDs than the current trend I think and imported into her lines.....and really into dog training....if she is still alive she must be ancient.

I had a really neat book written by a woman who passed away too young but it was very comprehensive but even that was before the wall came down and all the eastern bloc dogs were 'discoverd'........

WE NEED A GOOD BOOK ON THE WORKING LINES! EVERYTHING IS ON SHOWLINES


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## Cheza

The 'Dummies' book I bought is decent the other book does focus a bit much on the showlines I agree but there's still plenty of good reference info in it, yea a book on just purely working lines would be nice.


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## Xeph

Nancy, I believe Winn is still alive and is in her 90s


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## holland

How come no one knows if she is alive or not-shouldn't someone know?


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## Xeph

I just did a google search. Not only is Wynn still alive, she's the vice president of the Diamond State German Shepherd Dog Club!!


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## JakodaCD OA

Cliff needs to write a book and I wanted it signed to


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## NancyJ

JakodaCD OA said:


> Cliff needs to write a book and I wanted it signed to


PUT ME DOWN FOR A COPY - I would in a heartbeat.
Maybe a few of the great heads could collaborate.
Has there been anything really written since Willis? That was almost 20 years ago, no?


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## codmaster

It seems that a lot of the WL dogs, at least the ones that I see in person and esp. in pictures, have a distinctive roach in their back. If so then this would seem to be as much of a deviation from the standard as an over angulated back end, wouldn't it?

BTW, I have had GSD's over the last 30+ years from all sorts of lines, starting from a BYB (first one) to top US show lines to top German imports to another US show line kennel.

Strangly enough the "hardest" dog we have ever had was a male from a US top show kennel (probably a genetic freak as his litter mates were not like him at all with much softer more typical SL temperaments).


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## Cheza

codmaster said:


> It seems that a lot of the WL dogs, at least the ones that I see in person and esp. in pictures, have a distinctive roach in their back. If so then this would seem to be as much of a deviation from the standard as an over angulated back end, wouldn't it?


I would disagree with that at the moment, the roach legs seem to be happening more on the showline side, but since I'm going to get a DDR working line dog I'll be avoiding the roach leg issue all together.

'Many of us remember what communist controlled countries were like. They were not allowed free trade or contact with the outside world and were dominated by their government over decisions most of us take for granted everyday. So was it also for the breeding kennels in East Germany. With the border and Berlin Wall up, closed breeding within the DDR kennels kept the dogs at their standards without outside influence. '
www.ddrlegends.com :: Where the REAL Working Dogs Unite


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## codmaster

Cheza said:


> I would disagree with that at the moment, the *roach legs* seem to be happening more on the showline side, but since I'm going to get a DDR working line dog I'll be avoiding the *roach leg issue* all together.
> 
> 'Many of us remember what communist controlled countries were like. They were not allowed free trade or contact with the outside world and were dominated by their government over decisions most of us take for granted everyday. So was it also for the breeding kennels in East Germany. With the border and Berlin Wall up, closed breeding within the DDR kennels kept the dogs at their standards without outside influence. '
> www.ddrlegends.com :: Where the REAL Working Dogs Unite


 
You probably can avoid "roached legs" - I have no idea what you mean by this term. 

I was referring to a roach in the dogs topline. (along their back). This is a big fault according to the AKC GSD standard which calls for a level back.

And it is very, very noticable in many of the pics you see of WL German dogs - even in some of the pics you can see on some breeders web sites.


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## NancyJ

Can you point out an example of this? I can't recall seeing a WL with a roach. German Showlines, absoultely.......and to be fair, a lot of that is the extreme stack.


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## onyx'girl

I've not seen a roach-backed WL either. I would like to see pics too!


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## codmaster

Are you folks serious about never seeing a roach backed WL GSD? Just curious - do you have WL dogs?

Here is a link that explains what a roach back is since you might have never seen any.

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, THE BACK


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## codmaster

Try looking at the site listed below. The owners claim they are WL. I found the site on the web.
I.E. "All of our dogs have strong, proven working bloodlines"

Not every dog, but a couple of the males listed look kind of roachy to me.

http://grandcanyonk9.homestead.com/Studogs.html

Or you can do a simple search on Google to see a lot more examples. That is of course how I found the site above.

Or you might even find a few in some of the pics that are posted on this forum.


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## Samba

I have seen working line dogs with a roach. I have occasionally seen a roach over the loin in WL dogs and American dogs.


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## NancyJ

Ok so never say never.......Looks like one of the dogs on that page may have a roach but is it the back or it it the pose? I see the other one but I don't think so. 

I have seen plenty of showlines standing normally (not posed) with a roach and can't recall seeing any working line dogs that way but the implication was the roach was a characteristic of the working lines and it is not.

As the Shaw article does say - Look at the dog naturally-these are the two dogs that appear roached in the shoot.....they don't look very roached to me in real life. IF the dogs front legs are planted and the rear end is pushed forward the back has to bend. That does not make it a roach. 
FRANKIE
Bára z Oplovny - Autor: frea1, Video na Stream.cz (ID: 284372)

I do have a working line dog. He does not have a roach neither does my other working line dog. Your statement was rather condescending that we would not know what a roach is but I guess so was my assumption that you must have made the common misconception that a german showline dog is a working line dog.


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## LARHAGE

I would say the stack accentuates the appearance of a
roach back, I haven't seen excessive roachs in free moving dogs, my dog would appear roached to a lot on here seeing his show stack, but trust me he is not a roached back dog, just like my Arabian show horses don't have a excessive level croup unless I set them up in the ring, it's a show ring appearance, my dog and my horses are beautiful movers.


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## Cheza

The dog Dyk's from http://grandcanyonk9.homestead.com/Studogs.html is one amazing looking dog wow, what a muscle machine and the sable on black looks so nice!


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## codmaster

jocoyn said:


> Ok so never say never.......Looks like one of the dogs on that page may have a roach but is it the back or it it the pose? I see the other one but I don't think so.
> 
> I have seen plenty of showlines standing normally (not posed) with a roach and can't recall seeing any working line dogs that way but the implication was the roach was a characteristic of the working lines and it is not.
> 
> As the Shaw article does say - Look at the dog naturally-these are the two dogs that appear roached in the shoot.....they don't look very roached to me in real life. IF the dogs front legs are planted and the rear end is pushed forward the back has to bend. That does not make it a roach.
> FRANKIE
> Bára z Oplovny - Autor: frea1, Video na Stream.cz (ID: 284372)
> 
> I do have a working line dog. He does not have a roach neither does my other working line dog. Your statement was rather condescending that we would not know what a roach is but I guess so was my assumption that you must have made the common misconception that a german showline dog is a working line dog.


*Nope, wrong!* I assumed nothing about your knowledge, or lack of it - just provided an interesting reference to an article illustrating what a roach back is and the possible effects of it. Nor did I assume that a WL is a SL. Too funny.

One thing that seemed likely to me was that you probably had a WL dog (are you also a WL breeder?) - thus explaining your seemingly great sensitivity of the subject of a WL dog being not according to the standard. The AKC GSD standard calls for a level back, not roached!

I didn't even indicate whether I thought that a roached back was bad - just that I had seen what seems like a lot of WL dogs that possessed that feature. 

Just like a lot of US SL dogs have excessive angulation.

So no need to get defensive or upset - just mentioning what I had seen.

Since you do own one, maybe you can tell us whether most (any or all?) WL breeders consider a roached back as a plus or a minus when deciding whether to breed a particular bitch or to a particular stud dog? 

Would you, or anyone else for that matter, be able to answer that? 

I would be interested in finding out what WL breeders consider (besides working ability of course) when deciding on a breeding.

I think that everyone would say that breeders should consider the total dog - both conformation and their mental capacity; but how many really do use both sides of the dog?


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## Cheza

I think that a roach back is bad thing, I don't think it helps the dog in anyway way and it doesn't look good either, when GSD dogs were first bred there backs were straight.
A slight slope I guess is normal even a humans back isn't perfectly straight, but mainly in the cases of showlines as I've seen so far the slope can be to extreme.


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## NancyJ

codmaster, not defenseive but, being an INTP, truth is important to me.

I think that ascribing the roach as an attribute of WL dogs is misinformation. The main conformational flaws I have heard are straight shoulder, long back, perhaps too little angulation..........

The roach more a showlines thing, acknowledging that much of it appears to be the stack and that good showlines dogs probably don't have a roach.

Personally I do think the standard is important as, I think, most good WL breeders do breed to the standard, but what wins shows is fancy and not a true working structure. I will take a dog that can actually work all day long over one that can only do a few things on a sport field or show ring.

My experience with the dogs is using them for SAR and I have been involved in K9 SAR for about a decade. At least in the East, I see very few showline dogs doing this. I manily see WL dogs and, believe it or not, a smattering of American BYB. This is not a "fancy" thing. I think more people ooh and ahh over the plush red and blacks than the "uglier" WL dogs but performance and sound working structure are what it is about.


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## GSDElsa

Codmaster, the roached back is not something one sees "a lot" in working lines. That's just fact. Can you find an occasional dog with a roach back? Perhaps. I will say the one dog on the page you linked does look like he has a "roached back", but that could be a result of the way he is standing because it is so UNCOMMON in working line dogs. 

Google search "working line german shepherd"
working line german shepherd - Google Search=

Google search "show line german shepherd"
show line german shepherd - Google Search=

Obviously the google search provides seom "workingline" results in the showline search and visa versa. But I think in that working line search you'd be hard-pressed to find a dog moving freely with a roached back this IS a working line.


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## NancyJ

posted pix earlier of the two "roached" dog and here is a video of Frankie Anrebi
That is one handsome dog


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## Chris Wild

Of course some WLs have a roach. I've seen a few in person and photos, but in relation to the overall WL population such dogs are few. It is certainly the exception, not the norm. Whereas with the German SL, it seems to be the norm and non-roached dogs are the exception. So while one can't factually argue that WLs don't ever have it, the impression given earlier was that it was a hallmark of the WLs, which is certainly is not. It's that impression that people are taking exception to I think.


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## Samba

I would not be looking for my working line dogs to be bred to the AKC Standard. To compare them to such is to compare a dog to a standard it is not bred to. I have never gotten a WL dog that was being bred to meet the AKC standard description of the dog and I would not expect the breeder to do so.

That being said, I don't see many roaches in WL dogs. The fact that I can tell you that I have seen it is because it stood out as unusual to me. I have seen almost all conformational defects in all lines of dogs. Some have tendencies to appear in one line more than others, of course...genetics.


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## NancyJ

Chris, Samba thanks for the more succinct clarificaiton.

I do think looking at real dogs and videos of real dogs in motion (e.g., BSZS for showline, BSP for working line, Westminster for am show line) helps a lot to clarify.......the roached dogs I have seen were hunched over when just relaxing and did not move efficiently and gracefully at all. As in the other thread, so much can be attributed to a bad stack.


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## jmopaso

Cheza
Also in Canada, (NB) is Robin Winter, von Narnia Kennels. I have 3 dogs that came from her kennel. My Hazel von Narnia is a daughter of Robin's Wichita von Narnia, who in 2010 at around 8 or 9 years of age was a WUSV competitor for the Canadian team. Hazel has been a great producer for me. I am very pleased with the dogs I have from her. Sonodor von Narnia has just been bred to Grimm van het Groot Wezenland for her first litter.
Contact Robin, let her know what you are looking for and see what she might have available.


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## Cheza

jmopaso said:


> Cheza
> Also in Canada, (NB) is Robin Winter, von Narnia Kennels. I have 3 dogs that came from her kennel. My Hazel von Narnia is a daughter of Robin's Wichita von Narnia, who in 2010 at around 8 or 9 years of age was a WUSV competitor for the Canadian team. Hazel has been a great producer for me. I am very pleased with the dogs I have from her. Sonodor von Narnia has just been bred to Grimm van het Groot Wezenland for her first litter.
> Contact Robin, let her know what you are looking for and see what she might have available.


Thanks, will keep her kennel in mind as well.


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