# Panda German Shepherds??



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Has anyone else heard of this? 










It kind of looks like a German Shepherd, just with really odd markings. I did a bit of searching on the internet, and it appears they are becoming their own breed -- which just doesn't seem right. If you're breeding specifically for a random (and rare) mutation, how in the world can you also be breeding for temperament?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, many of us have heard of them. If they go for separate breed status it seems the gene pool would be limited? I believe the color is dominant(?), so breeding within the breed would allow more choices to them.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

That's the first coated Panda I've seen...

Phenom Shepherds - Home


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

They are absolutely gorgeous!

I would love to have one, but not from a byb.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Was it a outcross or a color mutation? Was it a "mutation" -- that special kind that happened when no one was watching?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Apparantly DNA tests have been done and they are German Shepherds and the parents of the first one (neither of which where Pada colored) were the sire and dam of the first Panda. So yes, it is being studied as a mutation by a couple of schools.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Huh. Maybe someday they will have an "Any other color" classification for the breed which would include blue, panda, white if they don't branch off too far, etc. then.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

The unusual coloration is so jarring, I can barely see the German Shepherd underneath.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Nice drawing










Adorable baby









Another adorable baby


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Looks like a GSD wearing a tri color collie coat.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

e.rigby said:


> If you're breeding specifically for a random (and rare) mutation, how in the world can you also be breeding for temperament?


Be Quiet!......the red & black or white folks could hear you!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

the panda coloration is a mutation. Health wise there is nothing wrong with the dogs. They did DNA tests and everything on the first pup and now phenom shepherds is the only breeder that has the dogs. if you get a panda shepherd from her, because her lines are the original lines, she gives you a certificate of the dog being authentic and purebred. She actually has the rights to the dogs kinda like copyright. 


I fell in love with panda's a couple years ago. I'm hoping to have one or two some day. They're beautiful.


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I am voting for a merle collie (smooth coated) back a generation or two (and perhaps a tri back on the other side) and some waiting. I would choose Aussie, but it messes with the earset and in most cases, size. Collie is more typey though from the pix you can see type is not as GSD and is more varied amongst her foundation stock. She posts the pedigrees on her site, but (not saying this is absolutely the case) it might not be the first time a breeding under the table occurred. Pedigree/registration, after all, is rather on the honor system. Sure the parents of the dog are the parents in a doggy paternity test, but what about back a bit? Something this extreme didn't just mutate into being unless a mutation came in the form of a merle and a back room.

IF it were some odd mutation in a reputable breeder, it would be altered and placed in a pet home and that breeding would not be duplicated. Instead, it was named as its own type, bred and reproduced the coloration, a special club was formed centered around it, minion breeders were established, they hold specialty shows and give themselves titles, they want it to be it's own breed, etc. Seems very ambitious and intentional.

Hate to be a skeptic, but I watched the whole Ragdoll cat creation by one lady here in California, careful linebreeding, trademarking, establishing minion breeders, creation of a club to hold speciality shows and register animals, non-mainstream registry (ACFA and then TICA) acceptance, mainstream (CFA) registration, petitioning and showing in provisional classes for years, acceptance of just one of the color varieties, full acceptance. This seems like it is following the same routine. Ragdolls are now a great breed and quite pure, healthy, sound, etc. However, it was based on one outcross.

Not that Pandas or Ragdolls for that matter aren't wonderful.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cara - If you go to the website, you will find the documentation from the DNA tests. I think this topic has been argued to death several times on several boards. According to reports, the Panda mutation has occurred before but breeders culled the dog (as in killed it).

There is one person on this board who has one of their dogs.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Cara Fusinato said:


> Not that Pandas or Ragdolls for that matter aren't wonderful.


I have a Ragdoll and she is the best cat ever. If I ever decide to get another cat, it will be a Ragdoll.


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## Sep (Aug 19, 2011)

Hello there , im new here...and i fell i love with the panda-shepherds....
Can anyone tell me if there are any breeders??? Im from the Netherlands and as far as i know they dont breed them here in Europe.
I tried to contact Phenom shepherds by email, but im not able to send it...perhaps anyone knows their current email adress for me??? I would be much obliged!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I love that coat pattern in general. I have had calico cats and pinto or paint ponies, so have an affinity for the look. I just don't think I could get used to it on a GSD. If I really want a dog with that pattern I guess I'd get an Entelbucher or something along those lines.

Annette


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Sep said:


> Hello there , im new here...and i fell i love with the panda-shepherds....
> Can anyone tell me if there are any breeders??? Im from the Netherlands and as far as i know they dont breed them here in Europe.
> I tried to contact Phenom shepherds by email, but im not able to send it...perhaps anyone knows their current email adress for me??? I would be much obliged!


 
phenom shepherds is the only breeder of the panda line so they're the only one to contact.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Cara - If you go to the website, you will find the documentation from the DNA tests. I think this topic has been argued to death several times on several boards. According to reports, the Panda mutation has occurred before but breeders culled the dog (as in killed it).
> 
> There is one person on this board who has one of their dogs.


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Sep (Aug 19, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> phenom shepherds is the only breeder of the panda line so they're the only one to contact.


Thanks but im not able to contact them via their email adress, so im wondering if they have a new adres..perhaps anyone can tell me...???:help:


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Sep said:


> Thanks but im not able to contact them via their email adress, so im wondering if they have a new adres..perhaps anyone can tell me...???:help:


 
the information on their website should be current. Beyond that, there's no other way to contact them. sorry.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

bocron said:


> I love that coat pattern in general. I have had calico cats and pinto or paint ponies, so have an affinity for the look. I just don't think I could get used to it on a GSD. If I really want a dog with that pattern I guess I'd get an Entelbucher or something along those lines.


To me, they look like long-legged Corgis. Quite pretty, but they just don't have the GSD expression, IMO.

What bloodlines did the Panda originate from, anyone know? It appears this breeder raises Whites also, so I'm assuming she's using American lines.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Freestep said:


> To me, they look like long-legged Corgis. Quite pretty, but they just don't have the GSD expression, IMO.


I agree! 

I do think they are very interesting looking dogs, and some are even very pretty. However, I find it hard to see them as German Shepherds. 

I would be VERY interested in being able to meet one in real life. 

Even better, I would absolutely love to see one doing protection work in schutzhund!!!!!


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## prophecy (May 29, 2008)

Cara Fusinato said:


> I am voting for a merle collie (smooth coated) back a generation or two (and perhaps a tri back on the other side) and some waiting. I would choose Aussie, but it messes with the earset and in most cases, size. Collie is more typey though from the pix you can see type is not as GSD and is more varied amongst her foundation stock. She posts the pedigrees on her site, but (not saying this is absolutely the case) it might not be the first time a breeding under the table occurred. Pedigree/registration, after all, is rather on the honor system. Sure the parents of the dog are the parents in a doggy paternity test, but what about back a bit? Something this extreme didn't just mutate into being unless a mutation came in the form of a merle and a back room.
> 
> IF it were some odd mutation in a reputable breeder, it would be altered and placed in a pet home and that breeding would not be duplicated. Instead, it was named as its own type, bred and reproduced the coloration, a special club was formed centered around it, minion breeders were established, they hold specialty shows and give themselves titles, they want it to be it's own breed, etc. Seems very ambitious and intentional.
> 
> ...


Not to sound like a ''party pooper'' BUT spontanious mutations have happened in other breeds as well.Dobermanns come in 4 acceptable colors, black,blue,fawn(isabella),and red wich have rust toned markings.2 'normal' colored dobes produced a white doberman back in the 70's,it was then bred with it's siblings and parents.The color is still around today,and the dobermans are purebred.They are tyrosine + albinos.

My thought on the pandas origins are they are a genetic mutation in the color locus genes that is being expressed for the unusual coat coloring. (perhaps a mutation in a modifier area?)

In collies the white collar,feet and tail tip is a result of a gene(s) that is an incomplete modifier and permits white splashes on colored dogs.
In huskies,I ''think'' white can completely ''mask'' coloring???(not 100% sure there)

I think they are not overly attractive to be honest,but they are still shepherds.Just really oddly colored shepherds.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I have actually seen the "Panda color" in a litter over 15yrs ago.
*A well established, large breeder had a litter, and there were 2 puppies with the Panda color mutations.*
These were pure bred puppies....
She placed them as "mixed breed puppies" and never spoke of them to anyone.
I think the mutation did "appear" from time to time over the many years....but no one publicly spoke of it......until more recently.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

And all of us complain when someone thinks we have a mix or wolf  Can't imagine what owners of pandas go through.

When I first learned of them I couldn't get over the color and see the GSD in there. Now I see it. I think they are cute. Don't know that I would seek to own one. I like darker colors.

Is the panda gene where the white spotting comes from in this breed?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

prophecy said:


> Not to sound like a ''party pooper'' BUT spontanious mutations have happened in other breeds as well.Dobermanns come in 4 acceptable colors, black,blue,fawn(isabella),and red wich have rust toned markings.2 'normal' colored dobes produced a white doberman back in the 70's,it was then bred with it's siblings and parents.The color is still around today,and the dobermans are purebred.They are tyrosine + albinos.
> 
> My thought on the pandas origins are they are a genetic mutation in the color locus genes that is being expressed for the unusual coat coloring. (perhaps a mutation in a modifier area?)
> 
> ...


 

this is all my understanding.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I talked to the breeder through email a while ago, she has some American and some German lines.



Cara Fusinato said:


> I am voting for a merle collie (smooth coated) back a generation or two (and perhaps a tri back on the other side) and some waiting. I would choose Aussie, but it messes with the earset and in most cases, size. Collie is more typey though from the pix you can see type is not as GSD and is more varied amongst her foundation stock. She posts the pedigrees on her site, but (not saying this is absolutely the case) it might not be the first time a breeding under the table occurred. Pedigree/registration, after all, is rather on the honor system. Sure the parents of the dog are the parents in a doggy paternity test, but what about back a bit? Something this extreme didn't just mutate into being unless a mutation came in the form of a merle and a back room.


Actually color mutations are not that unusual. You can find them in many species, many species that are selectively bred by people have colors/patterns that began as a mutation like this and then were purposefully bred for after that.
The mutation was traced in this case and originated with the sire's germ line (according to info from the school where this was done) which means neither parent carried the mutation down from further back.



sagelfn said:


> And all of us complain when someone thinks we have a mix or wolf  Can't imagine what owners of pandas go through.
> 
> When I first learned of them I couldn't get over the color and see the GSD in there. Now I see it. I think they are cute. Don't know that I would seek to own one. I like darker colors.
> 
> Is the panda gene where the white spotting comes from in this breed?


No, this gene is a recent mutation. As I understand it white spotting comes from several white spotting genes found in the breed.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I'd heard that "Panda Shepherds" are actually the result of crossing a GSD with a Border Collie (looks like it to, too, and there are tricolor Border Collies), but not sure how true that is.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

CookieTN said:


> I'd heard that "Panda Shepherds" are actually the result of crossing a GSD with a Border Collie (looks like it to, too, and there are tricolor Border Collies), but not sure how true that is.


It could be possible that someone out there is mixing BC and GSD and calling it a "Panda Shepherd" but the Panda Shepherds from the breeder being discussed here are not mixed with Border Collie. They are the result of a gene mutation. In order for the coloration to have been passed on from a Border Collie ancestor, the gene must have been present in the parents, and other offspring would have shown it, rather than only one. So it could not have been passed on from an ancestor who carried the coloration.

Here is the info from the researcher:



> * The coat color pattern stems from a spontaneous mutation; it was not introduced from another breed or population.
> 
> * The de novo mutation occurred in the Sire’s germ line, and was then passed down to his daughter, who was the only offspring of that sire to show the distinguishing markings.
> 
> * In subsequent generations, the Panda pattern has exhibited an autosomal dominant mode of inheritance, consistent with the action of a single gene acting with full penetrance.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I have never seen one before, nice looking dogs for sure.


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## jdh520 (Jun 4, 2011)

Does anyone know how much they cost?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I didn't like them before, when we first heard about them. But since I started going to IABCA shows I see them there and they are actually quite striking in person and have started to grow on me.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

W.Oliver said:


> Be Quiet!......the red & black or white folks could hear you!




Or the black sable breeders.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

jdh520 said:


> Does anyone know how much they cost?


About the same as other GSDs.


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## koda girl (Feb 15, 2010)

Sep said:


> Thanks but im not able to contact them via their email adress, so im wondering if they have a new adres..perhaps anyone can tell me...???:help:


You can write them a letter or phone them:

Phenom Shepherds
PO Box 22
Stoutsville, OH 43154
ph: 740-497-7558
[email protected]


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

At first glance I thought it was a GSD and Collie mix. I have never seen one prior to today.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

LARHAGE said:


> Or the black sable breeders.


Touché!


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