# Training yesterday....



## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

So today was the first day of biting the sleeve with Gabor, the first bite was solid, great. The second and third, not so much. This video is of the second bite. Were not keeping him on the sleeve, not gonna push it. 

Bite two, not good enough. He is going for the AD and Breed Survey in November. On the way to getting his titles and it's so exciting!! It's a long road, but a fun road none the less. 

Killian, dog on right, of course!


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh yea, I am taking Killian all the way to his ScHh III, so now matter how long it takes to lay the groundwork down, I'm fine with that!!  Can't rush perfection!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you ever held the line instead of his being back-tied? Where are you during this?
He may have more in him with you in the picture, praising him.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I am behind the camera, I come to praise him when I'm called in. I stand just five feet off against the tree line. When he calls me in I go over and get under him.... I go in for the "out" too.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why is he still backtied? Just asking, I know we do it now and then but usually the handler is still with the dog(unless the dog is so handler sensitive that it won't focus on the helper)


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Why is he still backtied? Just asking, I know we do it now and then but usually the handler is still with the dog(unless the dog is so handler sensitive that it won't focus on the helper)


I don't have that answer..... Hmmm..... LOL! I don't have the ability to hold him really well, and he takes me off my feet... Maybe that has something to do with it? I'm not 100% sure, but if Sue sees this thread I'm sure she can explain why..... The ONE question you ask and I don't know the answer too, go figure! :wild: I know almost everything else!!  Haha!!!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Dog is not handler sensitive at all. 

If the dog is backtied - he has to deal with everything on his own. No backup. No owner behind him creating a safety net.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks Sue!!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Sue. 
I've seen a couple dogs(mals/dutchies) that are very handler sensitive so are backtied to learn to work independently. 

Killian looks confident in the video, regardless. I was just curious as to why Victoria wasn't with him.... For a young dog, I would think a bit of handler praise and encouragement would be positive re-enforcement, not so much as a safety net, more as a confidence builder.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Killian was fine and no issue with the helper or me walking by a few times right next to him, when he was engaged on the sleeve.
Gabor adjusts training, based on what is needed. Too many times, people (general term) result to building that safety net, so you do not see how the dog really is. Victoria would step in for the praise, etc based on what was being done. 

I did this in CA and when in Europe as well. When I moved here, everyone was just doing the holding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think we should utilize it more often than we do, I think a couple of the dogs would have progressed faster( not the dutch/mals that I posted above these two are GSD's~one very high threshold and one that was on the lower threshold side) Each one is doing fine now(about 15 mos each), but thinking without the handler holding them and they were side by side as in the video, they may have progressed in a different way than they have.
by the way, how old is Killian?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

13 mos? 3rd time here, 2 real training session with Gabor. Keeps short

He is young. Gabor really does not do serious work until later, both with training dogs and his own. All work done, no matter what phase, is combined and targeted on a goal.

Same initial work that he did on Enzo, Emi, Fani, Frodo, Quasi, Griff. Norbo is a few weeks older than Killian and doing variation on the same.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Killian is 13 months! Thanks Sue, also thanks for the call!! Jane, your pretty awesome!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Here's my guess based on a very limited amount of info:

The game starts high in prey drive, and that gets a nice full mouth grip on the sleeve. As the prey drive is going down, the pressure is mounting on the dog (who's pretty young anyway), particularly since you're not there for moral support. The helper comes at him squared off without a very animated sleeve, and is spending a lot of time squared off to the dog. There were no misses in that video, and every presentation was intended for a bite... I would prefer "miss, miss, bite" from the helper. He's a pretty big guy anyway, so the premature fight/defense is getting too high relative to prey and the bite deteriorates as a result. Have the helper only give the dog a side profile with the sleeve, keep the sleeve more animated, and when doing a miss with the dog, rather than turn left to run back, just jog backwards still keeping the sleeve side presented to the dog. Also, no eye contact during the whole affair.

It also appears he froze while the dog was barking, then rewarded when the frozen sleeve let the prey drop, and the dog stopped barking... with two dogs barking its hard to tell for sure who was or wasn't barking

Just my guess, feel free to rip it apart, those who know more than me


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know Sue or Gabor personally but have no reason to doubt they know exactly what they are doing. My impression was that Killian has not been worked consistently having been allowed to age and mature before starting bitework seriously, and that this was one of his first times at this club. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't see harm in backtying the dog the first time or two so the helper(s) can get a good idea of the dog on his own without handler influence (whether that creates a safety net or creates more conflict or has no effect).

He's a beautiful dog. Good luck with the new club, sounds like a fabulous fit!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't know Sue or Gabor personally but have no reason to doubt they know exactly what they are doing. My impression was that Killian has not been worked consistently having been allowed to age and mature before starting bitework seriously, and that this was one of his first times at this club. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't see harm in backtying the dog the first time or two so the helper(s) can get a good idea of the dog on his own without handler influence (whether that creates a safety net or creates more conflict or has no effect).
> 
> He's a beautiful dog. Good luck with the new club, sounds like a fabulous fit!


Well I only say the above (not implying anyone doesn't know exactly what they are doing, but to paraphrase someone else, sometimes a more novice eye can see something otherwise missed?, so I volunteered what I interpreted from the video... not saying its right or wrong) bc generally good genetic bites get crappy b/c of stress. Stress coupled with letting the prey drive drop can cause a problem. Squaring off to the dog causes stress. Eye contact causes stress. back tying causes stress. Dog looks around several times, assuming at the handler off camera. That also tells me the dog is stressed.

And in this case, my advice would be at worst, a slightly less effective session if its wrong... but if its right, problem solved (identified, but easily solved).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think it's a difference in preference as to how they want to work the dog.

Also, IMO...to back tie a dog is creating less stress than having a handler work the dog who admittedly cannot handle the line. With a dog that age, it's also a safety thing!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Tying dogs out to work is as old as SchH. lol. There is NOTHING wrong with it. 

Really Hunter? You would work the dog with no eye contact or stress at all? I think you could up the action a bit to help the dog, ( maybe that's the plan...not really going on here about what is in one video), but I sure wouldn't be working the dog as you are suggesting. If the dog can't handle some stress and eye contact, he isn't for SchH. 

I realize I am helping to hijack this thread but what the heck..... It's hot outside.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

When they use the leather strap it's a miss, miss, bite. It was the first time on the sleeve. He was allowed to fully mature before we started training every week. He has a lot of growing and improvement to do....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with the back-tying/especially with a new handler...
I saw the first video that Victoria put up last week-Killian was on the gridiron then, too. I just wondered where she was during this. I didn't realize she had only been training for a few sessions.
I'm sorry if from what I posted, the thread took the turn it did.
I don't think she put the video up for a critique on the helperwork, I was just curious with my questions, not criticizing the way Killian was worked. I would be honored to have Gabor work Karlo!!


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Yea, were just trying to lay down some solid ground work and correct the incorrect stuff. We haven't worked long. We've been three or four times, and we have a lot of work ahead of us. Gabor is an AMAZING trainer and Killian has made LEAPS and BOUNDS since we started working with him, Killian has a whole new, HARD deep bite. Before he didn't. Were getting there, I'm always within five feet of Killian to move in and praise and make the "out". I do as Gabor says, this is my first ScHh dog, and my first go 'round with ScHh period, so I have lots of learning and am doing it Gabors way, which is PERFECT for us!!!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Tying dogs out to work is as old as SchH. lol. There is NOTHING wrong with it.
> 
> Really Hunter? You would work the dog with no eye contact or stress at all? I think you could up the action a bit to help the dog, ( maybe that's the plan...not really going on here about what is in one video), but I sure wouldn't be working the dog as you are suggesting. If the dog can't handle some stress and eye contact, he isn't for SchH.
> 
> I realize I am helping to hijack this thread but what the heck..... It's hot outside.


A dog brand new to bitework, and first time on a sleeve? I would do little stress there I think. Doesn't have anything to do with what the dog can take... It's about maximizing the experience

Didn't say anything against backtying. Heck I have a 6" post in my backyard for it.. just said that it is additional stress. When *teaching* the prey needs to be upped if the stress is, I think... Once the dog knows what is expected, the. More stress is appropriate

There is a big difference between a avoidance or flight from too much stress and having fight drive clouding the mind. I was referring to the latter scenerio


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Yes...that's what I said. I didn't say overwhelm the dog with stress but what you picked out there, a dog for SchH should be able to handle....even the very first time he works.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Yes...that's what I said. I didn't say overwhelm the dog with stress but what you picked out there, a dog for SchH should be able to handle....even the very first time he works.


Overwhelm to me means avoidance/flight/submission. Too much stress in a *solid* dog will draw him into defense/fight, and is harder to train in, particularly when young or not fully understanding the game and will often deteriorate the bite quality. Teaching should take place in prey IMO


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> *A dog brand new to bitework*, and first time on a sleeve? I would do little stress there I think. Doesn't have anything to do with what the dog can take... It's about maximizing the experience
> 
> Didn't say anything against backtying. Heck I have a 6" post in my backyard for it.. just said that it is additional stress. When *teaching* the prey needs to be upped if the stress is, I think... Once the dog knows what is expected, the. More stress is appropriate
> 
> There is a big difference between a avoidance or flight from too much stress and having fight drive clouding the mind. I was referring to the latter scenerio


He has been doing bitework for about 6 months now, not crazy long but not only a few weeks long. He just hasn't moved past the jute, or the leather strap. He wasn't working with the same trainer everytime we trained, and I moved clubs so we could train more frequently with ONE trainer. He's made progress since then.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yikes! I dunno....I would seriously be worried about a dog that is getting ruined the stress placed on him in that video.......shouldn't be doing any protection work IMO...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Yep, lots of people believe that now.
You don't train things into a dog. It is there or it isn't. The helper's job is to bring it out and only working in prey creates it's own set of problems that I see MANY people struggling with.

I am not comfortable talking about the video. I think that was more a little test the helper did to see where the dog is at. He can certainly continue to stay tied out and watch...nothing wrong with that.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Yikes! I dunno....I would seriously be worried about a dog that is getting ruined the stress placed on him in that video.......shouldn't be doing any protection work IMO...


That is beyond even a gross distortion of what I said

Dogs get stressed. Don't act as though they don't or a stressed dog is a poor dog. It's not a bad thing, it's a critical tool in training


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Yikes! I dunno....*I would seriously be worried about a dog that is getting ruined the stress placed on him in that video.......shouldn't be doing any protection work IMO...*


Hold on, your saying my dog is getting ruined and you wouldn't do ScHh with him???


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Hold on, your saying my dog is getting ruined and you wouldn't do ScHh with him???


I think Elsa is just picking on Great. A little sarcasm.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

gagsd said:


> I think Elsa is just picking on Great. A little sarcasm.



Ooooohhhhh, I was a little worried there..... *sigh*


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Hold on, your saying my dog is getting ruined and you wouldn't do ScHh with him???


No, I'm saying if your dog DOES have his bite or whatever ruined by the small amount of stress that Gabor is putting on him then he's not a dog who should be doing protection work--I'm responding to what Hunter has been saying.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Hold on, your saying my dog is getting ruined and you wouldn't do ScHh with him???


She was implying I said that bc I said there was too much stress on the dog if the bite went downhill after a nice opening. She equates stress with an insult. The right balance of stress is critical, and ever changing depending on the dog, the goals, etc


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Some dogs mature slower than others. Could be he is a completely different dog in six months. 
There is nothing going on in that video....and I did go back to see if there was one I missed after I read some of the comments........that would ruin that dog.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> No, I'm saying if your dog DOES have his bite or whatever ruined by the small amount of stress that Gabor is putting on him then he's not a dog who should be doing protection work--I'm responding to what Hunter has been saying.



Oooooh, See, I get it now. I knew you weren't that *****y..... LMBO!!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

My, things change so quickly here. I can't keep up...time to make myself go clean the Frig.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Vandal said:


> My, things change so quickly here. I can't keep up...time to make myself go clean the Frig.



I had to go back and re-read EVERY post to understand how she got there with her wording. Totally get it though!!  LOVE YOU GSDELSA!!!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> No, I'm saying if your dog DOES have his bite or whatever ruined by the small amount of stress that Gabor is putting on him then he's not a dog who should be doing protection work--I'm responding to what Hunter has been saying.


I'm not taking about ruining anything. I'm taking about training. Genetic grip is genetic grip. It will always be there when in prey... I don't believe it can be ruined


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If it can't be ruined, then who cares how much stress someone puts on a dog?

OP- Have fun! Glad that you get to train with Sue and Gabor. You have a handsome young dog and good opportunities.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

gagsd said:


> OP- Have fun! Glad that you get to train with Sue and Gabor. You have a handsome young dog and good opportunities.



Thanks, were taking it slow for Killian, he is having way to much fun! 
I'm having a blast too, learning a LOT!!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> If it can't be ruined, then who cares how much stress someone puts on a dog?
> 
> OP- Have fun! Glad that you get to train with Sue and Gabor. You have a handsome young dog and good opportunities.


Because prolongs the end goals?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm not taking about ruining anything. I'm taking about training. Genetic grip is genetic grip. It will always be there when in prey... I don't believe it can be ruined


You said 3 times in this thread about a bite getting crappy or deteriorating...ruined...getting crappy...deteriorating....isn't that all saying the same thing?



hunterisgreat said:


> ...and the bite deteriorates as a result.





hunterisgreat said:


> ...and will often deteriorate the bite quality. Teaching should take place in prey IMO





hunterisgreat said:


> ...bc generally good genetic bites get crappy b/c of stress.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> You said 3 times in this thread about a bite getting crappy or deteriorating...ruined...getting crappy...deteriorating....isn't that all saying the same thing?


Ruined implies permanent, and I never used that word. Deteriorate, means lowering in quality over time. Deteriorating bites can be turned around the second you identify why it is happening. 

Delt with it with my own dogs, anyone who hasn't watched bite quality rise and fall either isn't paying attention, isbt putting any stress on the dog, or isn't training hard or training so conservatively as to avoid it ever happening. Either in a session, or over days/weeks/etc, everything is always improving or deteriorating. Nothing is static


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Hunter,

You aren't becoming one of those "I.E." people that we talked about a little while ago, are you?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Ruined implies permanent, and I never used that word. Deteriorate, means lowering in quality over time. Deteriorating bites can be turned around the second you identify why it is happening.


 

And at what point does "crappy" and "deteriorated" become "ruined" continuing on the path they are?

I say tomato you say tomato. :crazy:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

and this is why I never post training video's......


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> Hunter,
> 
> You aren't becoming one of those "I.E." people that we talked about a little while ago, are you?


I e?

No, just offering an opinion, then trying to prevent the opinion from being grossly altered, and the altered opinion being attacked as though it was what I said. I have personally witnessed, and been shown how to correct similar situations. CLEARLY caveated that there was very little info to go on, and feel free to dispute, in my first post. No one has disputed my original points, just the false conclusions attributed to what I said


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> And at what point does "crappy" and "deteriorated" become "ruined" continuing on the path they are?
> 
> I say tomato you say tomato. :crazy:


As I said. Genetic bite is genetic.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> and this is why I never post training video's......


It's not like I insulted anyone , just called them like I saw them. Anyone who feels they are perfect is a fool


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> As I said. Genetic bite is genetic.


Do you train your dogs in ScHh too?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I.E. = Internet Expert


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Do you train your dogs in ScHh too?


Yes, every day


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> Yes, every day


Okay. I was wondering about your first post. Dang, everyday. Killian works once a week. LOL!!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Okay. I was wondering about your first post. Dang, everyday. Killian works once a week. LOL!!


Nothing wrong with that. I just dont have wife/kids/etc  more free time


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> Nothing wrong with that. I just dont have wife/kids/etc  more free time


Yea, I work, I'm in college, have a 3 year old, and obviously married. I stay busy.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Yea, I work, I'm in college, have a 3 year old, and obviously married. I stay busy.


I run two companies and trying to finih grad school


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> I run two companies and trying to finih grad school


Thats great. Your lucky you find time for the dogs.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> Thats great. Your lucky you find time for the dogs.


I make time. Sometimes it's pretty hard, but I force myself. At home I have no one to please but myself, so that is a big difference from having a kid/husband to please on personal time


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK this got long fast but just wanted to clarify to Hunter that my response was not trying to criticize what you said you would do with the dog, I was responding to the comments about backtying and why it was done that way, just so happened my post showed up below yours. I got the impression that this was more about just feeling out where this dog is at than a formal training session. The video would have probably looked a lot different had it been a dog that Gabor had already been working with for several months.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

hunterisgreat said:


> Anyone who feels they are perfect is a fool


Agreed.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Liesje said:


> The video would have probably looked a lot different had it been a dog that Gabor had already been working with for several months.


That I agree, and Gabor changes how he works with the dog based on how the dogs learn and their personality.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> OK this got long fast but just wanted to clarify to Hunter that my response was not trying to criticize what you said you would do with the dog, I was responding to the comments about backtying and why it was done that way, just so happened my post showed up below yours. I got the impression that this was more about just feeling out where this dog is at than a formal training session. The video would have probably looked a lot different had it been a dog that Gabor had already been working with for several months.


Totally possible he was fully aware exacty how he was presenting to the dog to assess the dg, but though he was already working the dog regularly. Too many unknowns, which is why I so carefully wrote my first post, saying just that


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

WarrantsWifey said:


> That I agree, and Gabor changes how he works with the dog based on how the dogs learn and their personality.


Any trainer that didn't tailor the program, isn't really a trainer


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah too many unknowns hence I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt considering his experience.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> I make time. Sometimes it's pretty hard, but I force myself. At home I have no one to please but myself, so that is a big difference from having a kid/husband to please on personal time



Yea, all I do is work on his attention at home, building his drive for his tug. Which takes on average 15 minutes a day. The only ScHh work he does is at the club on Sundays. So I've learned time management well since I started classes up.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> OK this got long fast but just wanted to clarify to Hunter that my response was not trying to criticize what you said you would do with the dog, I was responding to the comments about backtying and why it was done that way, just so happened my post showed up below yours. I got the impression that this was more about just feeling out where this dog is at than a formal training session. The video would have probably looked a lot different had it been a dog that Gabor had already been working with for several months.


Aren't all training sessions "feeling out" where the dog is at? Every time a young dog goes out, it is never the same.... you progress or regress~and do adjust the training to whatever you see.
Most good helpers can see the heart of a dog within a few minutes of their first time out. 
As I posted before, I was questioning where Victoria was in all this(after viewing her previous training session), not critiquing the video and glad that Sue chimed in for clarification.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess if I were a helper and someone came out with a large dog, more mature (than say a puppy 6 months or younger) and the handler him/herself was admittedly not very experienced, I'd want the dog posted for safety and to absolutely ensure that the dog was only getting bites when it should be getting bites. How many times have we seen a helper tell someone to post their feet and yet they creep forward, let out more line, or just don't know the strength of their own dog especially if the dog has never tried bitework before and comes out strong. On the flip side I've also seen helpers instruct handlers to allow the dogs to pull them forward....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yeah, a couple weeks ago I had Karlo on the fursaver(dead)which was what the helper asked me to do(I told him it was hard to control him if I didn't have a prong on him) and the helper was not wearing scratchpants, he didn't have the sleeve on him either...
Karlo pulled~ BOUnced me off my feet towards him( I was low to the ground but it happened) and I was reprimanded(no connection, but close). 
My bad, but also helper should be prepared for a bite if he isn't protecting himself, when agitating (close in) the dog with a whip. Clearly my 90# male is stronger than me when in drive and on a fursaver...that is why I like the prong.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Ditto, switched Pan for that reason and he's only 67lbs! There's so much going on I hate having to worry about staying on my feet. I get enough of that practice with Nikon doing SDA!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thats where I was training, with Dennis T...he put the pressure on big time/Karlo reciprocated.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I wanted to come but even though I wasn't too far it would have taken a while to get there, no good direct route. I'm going tomorrow though!


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Victoria: I wish you luck with your pup. Sounds like you have a good trainer and are enjoying your first schutzhund dog. Enjoy the ride because you only get to experience your first time with one dog. He will always be special to you because he will have been your first and you will have learned schutzhund together.

Cheryl


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Renofan2 said:


> Victoria: I wish you luck with your pup. Sounds like you have a good trainer and are enjoying your first schutzhund dog. Enjoy the ride because you only get to experience your first time with one dog. He will always be special to you because he will have been your first and you will have learned schutzhund together.
> 
> Cheryl


Thank you Reno!! I really do love and enjoy him. He is amazing. :wub:


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Renofan2 said:


> Victoria: I wish you luck with your pup. Sounds like you have a good trainer and are enjoying your first schutzhund dog. Enjoy the ride because you only get to experience your first time with one dog. He will always be special to you because he will have been your first and you will have learned schutzhund together.
> 
> Cheryl


Cheryl,

Are going to tell her not to train the first dog in the back seat of a car? :shocked:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:rofl:


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Zahnburg said:


> Cheryl,
> 
> Are going to tell her not to train the first dog in the back seat of a car? :shocked:


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

WarrantsWifey said:


>


Sorry, it was a poor joke. You certainly have an excellent trainer to work with, and I wish you the best of luck.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Zahnburg said:


> Sorry, it was a poor joke. You certainly have an excellent trainer to work with, and I wish you the best of luck.


Oh, I just wanted in on the inside joke, I figured it was inside!! LOL!!  I'm nosey!!


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

OOOhhhhhh, I AM SO BLONDE! I get it now!!!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

:spittingcoffee:

Art. Sorry - the back seat of the SUV is taken over by Quasi right now 

Good conversations; just getting thru reading the posts.

Couple of points of clarification.

That is not a sleeve - it is a puppy bite wedge. And Killian (and Freya - the Vito daughter next to him) had the leather right before (not on this clip). This age is too young for the sleeve.

The work is done in prey. But, Gabor's version of training young dogs and competition dogs is probably different from what you have watched. Different trainers do different things. Since Gabor trains and competes, as well as training/trial helper work, he looks at foundation training and training overall differently. And he is very black and white about the ability of a dog, including his own.

Defense does not come in until later. That is why no puppy sleeve or hard sleeve.

Staring at a dog is actually helping the dog - making a connection, a little bit more reassuring. Some of the most intimindating helpers with true quiet intensity in the US do not look at the dog and/or hover over the dog in the blind, hold and guards. Look at Lotus Perkins doing helper work. He is not a large guy, but he radiates presence and threat during his work. I have seen Lisa's helper, Sean Murphy do the same. No antics, posturing - just presence. 

Jane - Dennis T is good


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

:thumbup: Thanks Sue, your a great mentor!! :thumbup:


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