# Puppy Mill Question vs reputable breeder



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Puppy mills produce a lot of pups. For reputable breeders some produce 15-16 litters per se and still be count as a puppy mill? Still the dogs end up healthy for many owners, although there can be an odd time where pup is unhealthy.


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## BensLife (Mar 5, 2014)

A puppy mill is breeding the dogs to quickly sell whether they have good or bad bloodlines/health. A reputable breeder will take into account a lot of factors before breeding such as health, bloodline, temperament, etc.

Just google what a puppy mill is and you'll see the difference between a reputable breeder and a mill.


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Lobobear44 said:


> Puppy mills produce a lot of pups. For reputable breeders some produce 15-16 litters per se and still be count as a puppy mill? Still the dogs end up healthy for many owners, although there can be an odd time where pup is unhealthy.


Puppy mills crank out puppies as quickly as possible to make money, which makes the bloodlines of their pups and the health of the dams suffer. 15-16 litters doesn't mean puppy mill automatically, it depends on how many dams they've used and over what amount of time, I would think. I'm not a breeder, so this is just my opinion! 

For example, if that number is over the course of say a career of 16 years, that comes to about one litter a year or so - which is generally more than quite reasonable (as long as the dam is within acceptable age range for breeding throughout that span of time). If the number is over the course of say 2 years, that's 8 litters a year which means they have several litters on the ground at once, and are probably cranking out pups like nobodys business. 

A good breeder will put in a lot of work into their pairings as well, and know their lines. Bloodlines, health, temperament, confirmation, etc is all stuff that puppy millers don't generally take painstaking time over .

Bottom line though, you want to research your breeder and spend some time here. You'll find out what you need to know if you look!


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

One cannot compare a Hyundai to a Cadillac in my opinion.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You can purchase from a breeder and still make a value based decision by supporting breeders who treat their dogs the way you'd prefer dogs be treated. 

You can get a Cadillac from 2 dealers - one who treats their customers well after a sale, one who doesn't, your research, and what is important to you will tell you which you want to deal with. 

You can also get a dog from someone who has the experience of having the dogs in an environment similar to the one you are going to have them live in, and can relate their house manners, other animal interactions, or you can buy from someone who has kennels and staff.

It's your money, so you get to decide what is important to you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jean, :thumbup:


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Debanneball said:


> One cannot compare a Hyundai to a Cadillac in my opinion.


Lol ^ 
Yes.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Debanneball said:


> One cannot compare a Hyundai to a Cadillac in my opinion.



Hyundai is a better quality and Cadillac cost more?


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Jean, I am sorry if I put my thought down in a manner that you did not agree with. Why, you ask...

Stella (rip), came to me via a friend (her chow and Stella did NOT like each other) bought her from byb, she had bad hips (diagnosed at 6 months), allergies to food, runny eyes, she was agressive from the getgo. I took her to school, to the vet for needles for allergies, cleaned her ears every Friday, I did my best. She eventually accepted other dogs, but took years. I was told
the place she came from was dirty and smelly, and the mother was fearful. But none the less, I LOVED her with all my heart! 

Now, Fritz, I bought from a breeder who shows dogs, he is healthy, friendly, happy.. Sure, sometimes he is a pain in the butt, but I have something I can depend upon.

Maybe Cadillac to Hyundai was wrong.. In hindsight, oranges to apples probably would have been better. 





JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You can purchase from a breeder and still make a value based decision by supporting breeders who treat their dogs the way you'd prefer dogs be treated.
> 
> You can get a Cadillac from 2 dealers - one who treats their customers well after a sale, one who doesn't, your research, and what is important to you will tell you which you want to deal with.
> 
> ...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There's so much more to a breeder than the number of puppies they produce. I know for a fact there are breeders that this forum respects and reccomends that produce upwards of a litter a month. Debanne...your experience is just one, with just two dogs. Sure, it's the more probable outcome when you think about statistics, but I have a dog that came from a "byb" who is extremely stable and a very good dog. I'm doing IPO with him, have done SDA work, titled in AKC venues. I also have one that comes from a much better breeder. Is she a better dog? Debatable in many aspects and is really all about what you're looking for.

Both dogs are healthy. Both dogs are friendly. And both dogs would be fine in any home. I've got friends that have spent 3 times what i did on my first dog and their dogs from those reputable breeders have health problems and in some cases have questionable temperaments or aren't able to do all that my boy has done.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

alexg said:


> Hyundai is a better quality and Cadillac cost more?


Exactly. But you get that exciting pearl paint job.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Both dogs are healthy. Both dogs are friendly. And both dogs would be fine in any home. I've got friends that have spent 3 times what i did on my first dog and their dogs from those reputable breeders have health problems and in some cases have questionable temperaments or aren't able to do all that my boy has done.


I call this luck and yes it does happen. You increase the odds of a good dog from byb if you know what your looking for and willing to take a chance on their health. The OP has no clue and therefore needs to focus on reputable kennels.

I had a puppy mill rescue straight from a despicable mill in Missouri, a beautiful Siberian Husky. She had EPI, and some fear based aggression but she lived a long and somewhat healthy life as my lead sled dog. She outlived my well bred Huskies making it to 14 years old. 

Pure luck and nothing more!

It's important to stack the odds in your favor, not against. Even more important for someone like the OP to find a good breeder who will mentor him and keep a close eye on that puppy as it grows and develops.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just like getting a healthy puppy from a "reputable breeder"? Pure luck and nothing more. Stacking the deck doesn't guarantee anything. Like I said, I know dogs from kennels that are considered very good and they have genetic issues...only difference I've heard? For some reason those breeders are allowed to use "genetics" as an excuse. Where as those that might make mistakes because they just don't know any better get reprimanded and called a BYB. 

The question also had to do with amount of litters being a sign of a good breeder or a puppy mill, and my story was meant to show that many times the amount of puppies has nothing to do with quality of breeding. I've seen people on this forum recommend kennels that easily produce 12 litters or more per year, and make mistakes, and produce genetic issues. All we tell those owners? Oh well...sorry, they're living things. Can't guarantee everything...try again next time!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

ALL puppies are complete crapshoots. 

What you are usually paying for is the ethical standpoint and support from the breeder. You're paying to support that person and what they are doing with their dogs/litters.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't believe all pups are crap shoots. 

I do believe the ability to differentiate between good and bad breeders is very difficult. Even more difficult for that first time buyer.

In the end, personal experience is what defines for most people. 
You can't tell someone that Ole Roy is crap food when that's all they have fed and dogs live to 20.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Puppy mills are generally not pleasant places. The dogs are miserable, often sick. Most mill pups have behavioral issues, these stem from a lack of care and socialization. On occasion the genetics shine through, since some of the breeding stock is gained through lying to reputable breeders or loving owners forced to rehome. Money is the only objective and the bitches are bred every heat until they stop producing and are killed, or die. Many mill dogs die in the same cages they were born in, they never know love or affection, or in some cases even kindness. Inbreeding is common since the goal is puppies. Health issues range from treatable to fatal.
Buying from these places does not save a dog, it condemns other dogs. Because as long as they are making money the cycle continues. 
Shadow is the sole survivor of her litter, fortunately the place she was born no longer exists. I dubbed it doggy ****. Most of the dogs related to her are now dead, which was a kindness. Her mother at 2 years old had produced 3 litters and we suspect that Shadows sire was also her uncle. Dead or dying pups were tossed in a burning barrel and an investigation of the property revealed a number carcasses tossed into sheds, vehicles and behind buildings. When the dogs were eventually seized, no evidence of food for them was found.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Puppies ARE crap shoots. No matter how much research you do, how much you know about the bloodlines and ancestry....things HAPPEN.

Knock on wood, I haven't had any elbow issues...the few non passing OFAs are borderline/mild and at last 2 had crappy (not just in my opinion, but in BC radiologist vets on staff at Tufts Vet School) x-rays and 1 had nice hips albeit thick femoral necks....so no really bad hips that compromise the dogs future....I am pretty comfortable with predicting that hips and elbows should be serviceable to Excellent! 

But the crap shoot is still there......did a breeding and ended up with dwarf pup. Great great pedigree - should have been great pups...but....crapshoot.....

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Two important factors for me:

1. Where I'm spending my money. I try to support people, kennels, and dogs that mean something to me. I see myself as someone who supports this *breed* and not just supporting my own cause of getting a dog for myself, if that makes sense. So I try to spend my money with people who I feel are also committed to this breed.

2. Temperament. Yeah health may be a crapshoot, but in many ways, temperament is NOT. Temperament is actually more important to me than health. It's fine to look at a nice BYB or puppy mill dog after the fact and say they turned out OK, but I need to know certain things up front before I purchase a dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Saphire said:


> I call this luck and yes it does happen.
> 
> It's important to stack the odds in your favor, not against. Even more important for someone like the OP to find a good breeder who will mentor him and keep a close eye on that puppy as it grows and develops.


I agree with this.



Liesje said:


> Temperament. Yeah health may be a crapshoot, but in many ways, temperament is NOT. Temperament is actually more important to me than health. It's fine to look at a nice BYB or puppy mill dog after the fact and say they turned out OK, but I need to know certain things up front before I purchase a dog.


I also agree with this.

I've gone the byb route more than once. My first byb dog was Sinister and he *knock on wood* hasn't had any major health issues so far and he has an excellent temperament. But one had a terrible temperament and one had several health issues.

Now I will only purchase from reputable breeders that do all of the proper health testing and takes proper breed temperament extremely serious.

Wanted to add, I also don't want to support a breeder that has more than 2 or 3 litters a year or a breeder that breeds more than one breed.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Two important factors for me:
> 
> 1. Where I'm spending my money. I try to support people, kennels, and dogs that mean something to me. I see myself as someone who supports this *breed* and not just supporting my own cause of getting a dog for myself, if that makes sense. So I try to spend my money with people who I feel are also committed to this breed.
> 
> 2. Temperament. Yeah health may be a crapshoot, but in many ways, temperament is NOT. Temperament is actually more important to me than health. It's fine to look at a nice BYB or puppy mill dog after the fact and say they turned out OK, but I need to know certain things up front before I purchase a dog.


Puppy mills are bad places. Puppy mills need to shut down, as they are a key factor thus responsible over pet overpopulation.


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> I've gone the byb route more than once. My first byb dog was Sinister and he *knock on wood* hasn't had any major health issues so far and he has an excellent temperament.


I'm not so sure that your Sinister is the product of a "byb." That breeder is registered through the AKC and health checks all of her breeding stock. She also breeds for temperament - as evidenced by your Sin.

A "byb" does none of these things, right?

And, before anyone asks (not that they will; I usually kill threads), yes, my dog is from the same breeder as LaRen's shepherd. Is our breeder the best? Nope. But she certainly *is not* a "byb."


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Dexter came from a farm, his breeder health checked and registers them. 
I dont think shiloh is a byb dog. Lol I think she is a product of some bad scene and no one planned her. 
Ty could have come from an exceptional breeder?

I will go with a reputable breeder next time around. I have some great people that can help me find one.


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I will go with a reputable breeder next time around. I have some great people that can help me find one.


Yep!

I am already researching breeders for my next GSD. Now that I have some experience, I have come to the conclusion that I'd like to become involved in agility stuff. My Tasha, while exceptionally obedient and pretty, is just not that agile...lol

I am hoping to add another pup sometime next year


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

If you get a good dog from a BYB, it's the exception, NOT the rule. And you definitely shouldn't be talking as if it's ok to support those practices.

Zeke is an amazing dog. Very stable temperament, handsome, a few minor health issues (he has mild HD on one side but is not clinical for it), but really all around he's a good dog. I got LUCKY. Doesn't mean I was justified in closing my eyes and buying the first puppy out of the newspaper that picked up their phone (which is exactly what I did). My next BYB special, as I like to call them, was the sweetest boy to me. I loved him. I also euthanized him at 3 years old because of his extreme fear aggression and difficulty to manage.

I would say the majority of poorly bred german shepherds have temperament issues. They're freak shows. They're skittish. Can't trust them. Most owners are blind and too naive to know any better. There's a reason every single one of my coworkers hated german shepherds before they met mine. 

Berlin is my first "well bred" dog and the difference is night and day. Not just health, but temperament. He's everything a german shepherd should be and I've never seen that same solidness from a poorly bred shepherd (I've seen plenty of owners CLAIM their dogs have it, but....). I also know plenty of good breeders that have numerous litters a year. For someone with experience and property and time, that doesn't make a bad breeder. Yes even the best health testing can produce sick dogs. It happens. But your chances are greatly decreased. And you are still likely to have a dog that's sound and stable in temperament.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> If you get a good dog from a BYB, it's the exception, NOT the rule. And you definitely shouldn't be talking as if it's ok to support those practices.
> 
> Zeke is an amazing dog. Very stable temperament, handsome, a few minor health issues (he has mild HD on one side but is not clinical for it), but really all around he's a good dog. I got LUCKY. Doesn't mean I was justified in closing my eyes and buying the first puppy out of the newspaper that picked up their phone (which is exactly what I did). My next BYB special, as I like to call them, was the sweetest boy to me. I loved him. I also euthanized him at 3 years old because of his extreme fear aggression and difficulty to manage.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear about that experience you had with your dog. Anyways, I refuse getting a dog from a BYB, only responsible breeders who know what they are doing should breed. I wish that was the law or something. A mix of byb, puppy mills, in general irresponsible breeding, and irresponsible owners are main key factors of over pet overpopulation. Thus, making dogs die millions every year or day. My choices are reputable breeders or rescue. Thanks for the other suggestions on the contrary.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I'm sorry to hear about that experience you had with your dog. Anyways, I refuse getting a dog from a BYB, only responsible breeders who know what they are doing should breed. I wish that was the law or something. A mix of byb, puppy mills, in general irresponsible breeding, and irresponsible owners are main key factors of over pet overpopulation. Thus, making dogs die millions every year or day. My choices are reputable breeders or rescue. Thanks for the other suggestions on the contrary.


Good luck finding a breeder.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Its not that hard to find a responsibble breeder really imho . I think you should focus more on yourself . Are responsibble ? Are you ready for a ling time commitment ? Ready to provide whatever your puppy need ? They cost money and time .


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Audie1 said:


> Yep!
> 
> I am already researching breeders for my next GSD. Now that I have some experience, I have come to the conclusion that I'd like to become involved in agility stuff. My Tasha, while exceptionally obedient and pretty, is just not that agile...lol
> 
> I am hoping to add another pup sometime next year


Im jealous... I want a new puppy already..


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Good luck finding a breeder.


Thanks for the confidence boost.  Found a few, overwhelmed with who to pick. I feel might be best put them on a doc, outline, etc.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> Thanks for the confidence boost.  Found a few, overwhelmed with who to pick. I feel might be best put them on a doc, outline, etc.


Coming up with a more specific idea of what you're looking for is going to be what helps the most. All you've posted about so far are general characteristics that are basically the breed standard. Get more specific than a "large male hiking buddy." Narrowing down lines, looks, etc will help.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> If you get a good dog from a BYB, it's the exception, NOT the rule. And you definitely shouldn't be talking as if it's ok to support those practices.
> 
> Zeke is an amazing dog. Very stable temperament, handsome, a few minor health issues (he has mild HD on one side but is not clinical for it), but really all around he's a good dog. I got LUCKY. Doesn't mean I was justified in closing my eyes and buying the first puppy out of the newspaper that picked up their phone (which is exactly what I did). My next BYB special, as I like to call them, was the sweetest boy to me. I loved him. I also euthanized him at 3 years old because of his extreme fear aggression and difficulty to manage.
> 
> ...


Yes, breeders can do it all right and still end up with sick pups. How they handle it with the buyer after the fact says a lot. There have been threads about this, some situations were handled well others not so much.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Puppy millers don't health test. Ever. It eats into their profits. 

I just lost my elderly puppy mill rescue Italian Greyhound. She went blind at 3 years old, because her puppy mill breeder bred dogs with Progressive Retinal Atrophy. I knew it was a possibility when I adopted her as a young puppy, but I still cried when the ophthalmologist confirmed it when I had her CERFed. This was totally preventable, if the breeder had cared about what he was producing. But Italian Greyhounds are big mill dogs, so they just keep cranking them out, with no regard to health. 

I'd prefer to stack the odds in my favor, by getting a dog from someone that health tests. While this little Italian Greyhound had an amazing temperament, and was sooooo easy to train, she was a train wreck genetically. Unless you are rescuing a mill dog and know what you are in for, why take the chance?


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> Coming up with a more specific idea of what you're looking for is going to be what helps the most. All you've posted about so far are general characteristics that are basically the breed standard. Get more specific than a "large male hiking buddy." Narrowing down lines, looks, etc will help.


I told you all many times. Every dog is their own individual, you don't how the dog is going to be when full grown. A large male, active, outgoing, affectionate, loyal, protective, amazing temperament. I'll be happy who I end up with.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Debanneball said:


> Jean, I am sorry if I put my thought down in a manner that you did not agree with. Why, you ask...
> 
> Stella (rip), came to me via a friend (her chow and Stella did NOT like each other) bought her from byb, she had bad hips (diagnosed at 6 months), allergies to food, runny eyes, she was agressive from the getgo. I took her to school, to the vet for needles for allergies, cleaned her ears every Friday, I did my best. She eventually accepted other dogs, but took years. I was told
> the place she came from was dirty and smelly, and the mother was fearful. But none the less, I LOVED her with all my heart!
> ...


I think you misunderstood - assume that people think of a breeder A as a breeder of Cadillac quality and the dogs are the same quality as breeder B, so both are Cadillac quality, with no argument to the quality of the dogs produced. 

But breeder A has 15-20 litters a year from dogs living in kennels and only interacts with them periodically (or has staff that interacts with them daily in a kennel setting) and breeder B has a smaller number of dogs and the breeder treats the dogs like I treat my dogs. 

They are both Cadillac dealers, but I am going to put my money with where my values are, and go with B, because I believe that all dogs have a need to be treated like dogs and that almost all dogs (particularly herding breeds) need to be with people, so that's what I would support. 

Another value I have is the education/knowledge of the breeder - do they understand genetics beyond (and including!) color? So that eliminates further. 

You can still make value based decisions when purchasing a dog, and this reinforcement of where you put your money is as strong a statement as rescuing a dog is, in my mind. 

Hope that clears it up - the dog is the car, the dealer is the breeder, and not all dealers are the same when you are buying a car, nor are all breeders, regardless of the quality of the dog they produce.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Audie1 said:


> I'm not so sure that your Sinister is the product of a "byb." That breeder is registered through the AKC and health checks all of her breeding stock. She also breeds for temperament - as evidenced by your Sin.
> 
> A "byb" does none of these things, right?
> 
> And, before anyone asks (not that they will; I usually kill threads), yes, my dog is from the same breeder as LaRen's shepherd. Is our breeder the best? Nope. But she certainly *is not* a "byb."


Not bashing, but these are characteristics of a BYB. 

The breeder does very minimal health testing if any, only does pre lims on some of the dogs, breeds dogs that are 10 months old, breeds more than 6 litters a year (at one point there were 10 litters), breeds large, over the standard dogs, colors that are considered faults and should not be bred like blues and livers, these dogs have Lab-like personalities. Puppies are sold first come first serve, no matching is done by the breeder.

That is the definition of a byb.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I told you all many times. Every dog is their own individual, you don't how the dog is going to be when full grown. A large male, active, outgoing, affectionate, loyal, protective, amazing temperament. I'll be happy who I end up with.


Genetics, and personality traits (pups) are huge indicators of what an adult will be like,
If you want a big male,
Are you looking at standard sized GSD's?
If you want a aggressive dominant male,
Are you looking a long line of genetically outgoing social dogs?
If you want an outgoing dog
Are you looking at a puppy that is shy ?
Alot of personality traits of pups indicate what a dog will be like,
Hence when a breeder has a litter and states "blue collar male-suitable for working home" its not because they are blowing smoke up potential buyers butts, its because a hood breeder knows fron the start what a puppy will and wont be capable of.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Lobobear44 said:


> I told you all many times. Every dog is their own individual, you don't how the dog is going to be when full grown. A large male, active, outgoing, affectionate, loyal, protective, amazing temperament. I'll be happy who I end up with.


Yes, you've said THIS many times... I understand that... my point is you are describing the breed in general- you need to be more SPECIFIC if you want to narrow down your search.


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## damaya (Feb 1, 2011)

I posted this a couple years ago.
Puppy mill \/

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/181796-went-puppy-mill-today-pic.html


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## Katey (Aug 11, 2010)

damaya said:


> I posted this a couple years ago.
> Puppy mill \/
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/181796-went-puppy-mill-today-pic.html


Damaya, I clicked through to your link and (sadly) I instantly recognized the place. I've never been there myself, but my sister goes to college nearby and she's described it to me, and I won't forget what I saw on their website. Extremely sad.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think you misunderstood - assume that people think of a breeder A as a breeder of Cadillac quality and the dogs are the same quality as breeder B, so both are Cadillac quality, with no argument to the quality of the dogs produced.
> 
> But breeder A has 15-20 litters a year from dogs living in kennels and only interacts with them periodically (or has staff that interacts with them daily in a kennel setting) and breeder B has a smaller number of dogs and the breeder treats the dogs like I treat my dogs.
> 
> ...


Sometimes knowledge is proportional to experience. A breeder who breeds one bitch one time in 4 years, Keeps a puppy bitch out of each litter and everyone lives together in harmony because they only have 3 dogs, is simply not going to have the hands down experience that someone who breeds a couple of litters a year. And that person is not going to have the experience of someone who breeds half a dozen. 

Someone with less dogs can have more book-knowledge. They can look at a LOT of litters on paper. But they cannot actually see how what works on paper translates to what happens on the ground. It is a balance. What is more important to you. 

Someone who doesn't hold back puppies, isn't breeding for the future, isn't breeding dogs to produce show/work/sport dogs. And, they aren't going to have as much knowledge about their pups as a breeder who does. Eventually the breeder who does, is going to have to have kennels, and is going to not have everyone running about in a huge free-for-all.

Again, you have to have an amount of balance. You want a breeder who will take back a puppy at any point in there lives. You want a breeder who breeds for the future. You want a breeder who raises puppies in the home. You want a breeder who trains and works with each of their dogs. Chances are your breeder's set up is not going to the same as your average pet owners. 

Average pet owners do not generally have multiple intact dogs of one or both sexes. Breeders HAVE to have the facilities to separated dogs and bitches, and bitches and bitches as a minimum, when there are heat cycles, or if fights are happening. 

When a breeder has one bitch and one dog, and breeds that bitch. Most likely the breeder isn't breeding for Cadillacs, but the dogs will be sleeping on the bed and hanging out in the AC most of the time.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> Yes, you've said THIS many times... I understand that... my point is you are describing the breed in general- you need to be more SPECIFIC if you want to narrow down your search.


I talked to a breeder today. She agreed we have no idea what the pup or dog is going to turn up to be. We cannot predict the future, that what makes it exciting. He won't be someone else's dog my own, and will touch him the moment I meet him for the rest of his life.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> I talked to a breeder today. She agreed we have no idea what the pup or dog is going to turn up to be. We cannot predict the future, that what makes it exciting. He won't be someone else's dog my own, and will touch him the moment I meet him for the rest of his life.


?
No. Breeders cannot monitor what an owner does with a pup after the pup is sold but you CAN have a good idea what sort of dog you can expect your pup to turn put to be. A nervous unsure pup, usually is not going to be sold off to a sport home, get it? So many breeders pick pups for people also, Family says, this is what I want and breeder says okay! Pup A is a good pup for them.

Thats why everyone is saying narrow it down 
Want a big male?
a protective family companion?
An out going social pup?

Genetic markers will indicate some of these traits, absolutely!


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> ?
> No. Breeders cannot monitor what an owner does with a pup after the pup is sold but you CAN have a good idea what sort of dog you can expect your pup to turn put to be. A nervous unsure pup, usually is not going to be sold off to a sport home, get it? So many breeders pick pups for people also, Family says, this is what I want and breeder says okay! Pup A is a good pup for them.
> 
> Thats why everyone is saying narrow it down
> ...


Yes along with brave and loving


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Lobobear44 said:


> Yes along with brave and loving


So what if you end up with a dog like Shadow? Fearful, skittish, unpredictable.
What if you end up with a dog like Bud? He is well bred. He is also independent, high prey drive and highly defensive. No breeder would have placed him in my home initially, I would not have chosen him.
But at a glance he fits your list.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Ya or my shiloh she fits your list only female. 
Big
Brave
Loving

Absolutely, undeniably just a pet. 
Dont ask for much from her,


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

You do get it tho right?
A good breeder knows their pups and knows the lines and understands which pups do best in certain homes.


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> You do get it tho right?
> A good breeder knows their pups and knows the lines and understands which pups do best in certain homes.


I'm a brave person myself.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

There is SOOOO much more to a dogs temperament than just loyal, brave, protective, loving etc. When I was younger and I had just lost my first GSD I was desperate to find a new one. I wanted a full working line male (my first GSD was working/show cross) and didnt realize how many different things make up a dogs temperament and personality. I found a breeder told her I could handle a strong working line male and brought him home at 6 months old (I was barely 17 at the time). Within a week of bringing him home he had his first live bite on a friend who took away his toy. He went for her with no hesitation, just hanging off her hip. He acted in a way that I never expected a 6 month old puppy too. From that moment on things had to change when it came to my mentality in handling this dog. I realized then he was alot of dog and I had to be careful in my handling, control and containment of him. Eventually at about a year and a half I had to give him back to the breeder as my current living situation was not working with his upbringing and training. He did NOT accept anyone into his "pack" other than myself and I was living with 3 other people (one being my disabled mother in a wheelchair, who I could tell was terrified of the dog though never showed it). Last straw was when I was outside with my sister and her boyfriend trying to figure out how my puppy (my current dog) was escaping from his outdoor run when in a flash I noticed Rade's behavior change in his expression only (he gave no other clues but in his eyes when it came to his body language) by the time I went to pull him back he was already lunging for my sisters throat but luckily he only got her stomach as I reacted as fast as I could and pulled him down. Once I saw his intention to KILL my sister, not just bite her he wanted to KILL her (which IMO is not normal for a dog to go for a human beings throat, thats a severe psychological issue IMO) I knew he had to go. If I had lived alone and could ensure the safety of others as well as his own I would have kept him. I loved him to death and he loved me. I think I had the strongest bond with him among my 3 GSDs but he was just too much for me at the time. Had I had more experience handling a dog like him and a different living environment things would have been different. He went on to work for the corrections dept in Connecticut and I'm sure he is extremely happy. 

Moral of the story be as SPECIFIC and HONEST as possible when trying to describe the type of dog you need and more importantly the type of dog your experience and knowledge can handle SAFELY! There is SO much more that goes into finding the right dog with the right temperament that generic terms used to describe the breed as a whole.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

Quality GSD Breeders have a special bond to their dogs. If they are bring them into the family, socialize them, let them out for plenty of exploring and exercise - then they are a GSD breeder. Otherwise they are just a puppy mill. People that have a day job and two or three litters a year because they have a male and a female that have not been spayed and not even close to being genetically, structurally, mentally and socially sound dogs are totally irresponsible and are just as bad as a puppy mill.


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