# Snarling Face?



## kwath20 (May 18, 2016)

Hi Everyone, 

I have a 14 month GSD who just yesterday started to make, what I consider a pretty aggressive snarl. He has only done it twice, but I don't know if this is normal gsd play behavior as they get older, or something I should nip immediately. He doesn't growl or make any noise or snap/bite when he does it, just shows his teeth like that. I can post a picture. Him and my Pomeranian are best buds and were playing tug of war over this bone. They always get a little rough of course, but this seemed a little much. They share nicely and there is no resource guarding over toys/food etc. Thanks for any advice!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Looks like they're both giving a death stare.I wouldn't let them play tug with a food item.It can turn nasty in the blink of an eye.If you're getting an uneasy feeling about how they play,go with your gut and break it up calmly and give them something else to do.


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## kwath20 (May 18, 2016)

That is the feeling I am getting. Thank you!


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## kwath20 (May 18, 2016)

*Chip:*

(I can't send PM's yet )Hi, thanks for replying! I definitely understand the zero margin for error. We crate him whenever no one is in the house so he isn't left alone with our small dogs. This all just started two days ago so any advice I can get is helpful. I got him at 8 months, so he has a whole other set of issues I won't even get started on. I have a part time trainer now, a retired park ranger on the k9 team. He has helped us tremendously, I mean really turned my guy around from when I first got him. I've talked to probably every other trainer in maryland trying to get him into a strict obedience program, and it seems like no one wants to take him on because he is an older pup with issues. So I am feeling a little left on my own with him. The dog training/GSD ring is a tough community to break into apparently : (. But thank you for your advice, I don't get easily offended by what people say when I ask for help! : )


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm so sorry you're having issues!It's great you at least have your ranger friend to help though.Very best of luck to you!


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## kwath20 (May 18, 2016)

Thank you, and thanks for your side note!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Just remember that a normal scuffle between these two can easily end up with the pom getting killed just due to the sheer size difference. 

I would go a step further then just not allowing them to not play tug with the bone. I'd say no resources out while they are out together period. 

No bones. No treats. Not favorite toys. No nothing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

kwath20 said:


> (I can't send PM's yet )Hi, thanks for replying! I definitely understand the zero margin for error. We crate him whenever no one is in the house so he isn't left alone with our small dogs. This all just started two days ago so any advice I can get is helpful. I got him at 8 months, so he has a whole other set of issues I won't even get started on. I have a part time trainer now, a retired park ranger on the k9 team. He has helped us tremendously, I mean really turned my guy around from when I first got him. I've talked to probably every other trainer in maryland trying to get him into a strict obedience program, and it seems like no one wants to take him on because he is an older pup with issues. So I am feeling a little left on my own with him. The dog training/GSD ring is a tough community to break into apparently : (. But thank you for your advice, I don't get easily offended by what people say when I ask for help! : )


Hmmm ... Maryland huh??? How far away are you from here:
Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

You could contact them and they may know of a "trainer local to you" or Jeff also does "Skype" sessions! A hint ... with that option ... I've already outlined for you a lot of what he would tell you. 

So that said ... "Zero Margin of "Error" ... unequal sizes you have there. Your little guy is not going to be able to handle a lot of mistakes on your part!

A path I understand well ... cept for "me" I had a huge margin of "error" American Band Dawg vs an OS WL GSD. Five dust ups ... the only one that got seriously hurt was me! Breaking up the last of the dust ups ... resulted in my first stitches ever! Good times, Good Times. 

The things I outlined under Rules, Structure and Limitations ... I did "none of that!" I actually "DeCrate" trained "Rocky" that would come back to bite me in the butt!! And yes my "infamous" I Dare You To Try It" Protocal! Rocky was posturing with head over "Gunther's shoulders!!! :mad

I stood on "Rocky's" flank and "Dared him to try it!!! Rocky took that bet! I'm fast but he was faster ... I think that was the one where I got stitches?? 

At anyrate the things I outlined ...yeah I did none of that! But the "Free Roaming" indoors was what "allowed" him to pick the time and place of "his" choosing to act the fool! You can't stop him if you don't know where he is or what he's doing???

But in anycase ... it sounds like you "already" have a "Trainer??" And now your hoping to find a "Magic Bullet" trainer?? 

Irregardless of whatever "Trainer" you find ... short of a "Board and Train" the onus of "Management" is on you! 

"Keep It Simple" if your "trainer" has already taught you how to "Walk your dog properly" on a loose leash?? Then your already halfway there! A dog does not "need" you to "exercise" but he does need you to "Walk!" 

Living in the open desert ... I badly "underestimated" the importance of a "structured walk!" Hard lesson learned! 

That and "The Place Command" all the trainers "I" reference train "every dog" in "Place." That and institute a "No Free Roaming" in the house policy for "this" dog. I'd just start over .. in the link I sent under "New Dog a Challenge" you'll find ... "I just got a rescue, what do I do??" I'd start there ... the dual "leader thing" did not work out so well for me!


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I agree with not letting the dogs have toys together, especially high value toys. I have a French Bulldog with an attitude problem, and no one has toys unless I am right there to supervise. They love to go to bed in their crates at night, where I give them a stuffed kong. They can chew away without worrying about the others bothering them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> I agree with not letting the dogs have toys together, especially high value toys. I have a French Bulldog with an attitude problem, and no one has toys unless I am right there to supervise. They love to go to bed in their crates at night, where I give them a stuffed kong. They can chew away without worrying about the others bothering them.


How many of those guys do you have???


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Nope, I'd stop that behaviour. My friend's female rough collie (when I looked after her) used to show that face occasionally when a bone or chew was involved. I'd immediately take it away. It's mine after all, I gave it to them, and I can take it away.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I agree with Voodoo and Dogma. The size disparity is too much and your Pom may get seriously injured or worse. 

If you want to give valued treats, make sure one of them is crated so there can be no accidents. 

In the meantime, until you find a trainer, I would make sure your GSD is getting plenty of exercise and mental stimulation while you work on obedience. Dogs that are under exercised and / or bored can become anxious or frustrated which can lead to destructive behaviors.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Well, the good news is that I consider this normal GSD behavior(snarling). So I don't think your dog is aggressive, but yea, what others have said is true; It can escalate very quickly. The pom can easily have his neck snapped with a half second bite and shake. Don't set up the opportunity for them to fight for food.


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## kwath20 (May 18, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your advice, it is very appreciated! My GSD gets a ton of exercise - 2 walks/day, a ton of mental exercising (hide/seek) SAR exercises (from my park ranger bud), swimming, hiking and running in our creek - he's always on the move- so he isn't bored. I've been letting these two play rough and I guess I should stop that - we haven't had any problems until my gsd made that face - and since I immediately took the toy away and put him in his crate he hasn't made it again. My GSD never actually puts his mouth on the POM, just a lot of yipping, but my POM does get in his face a lot since he is the Dominant dog of the pack - but with all your advice it sounds like I should really not let them continue that kind of rough behavior. (Also - he is a complete gentleman on the leash and listens to all my commands.) -

Is it okay for them to play without any toys involved?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's perfectly fine for them to play together IF you are diligent.You know your dogs and can see when they begin to get irritated with each other.I've got a little dog who is usually the instigator,lol!Whenever he starts trouble he's sent behind the baby gate,back in the house,etc.It's no big deal and happens infrequently.
I have found that making a fuss and correcting just gets them haired up.So just matter of factly separating them calms them.I can see them relax immediately.That's what works best for us anyway,switching off the excited behavior and replacing it with chill.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

kwath20 said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice, it is very appreciated! My GSD gets a ton of exercise - 2 walks/day, a ton of mental exercising (hide/seek) SAR exercises (from my park ranger bud), swimming, hiking and running in our creek - he's always on the move- so he isn't bored. *I've been letting these two play rough and I guess I should stop that *- we haven't had any problems until my gsd made that face - and since I immediately took the toy away and put him in his crate he hasn't made it again. My GSD never actually puts his mouth on the POM, just a lot of yipping, but my POM does get in his face a lot since he is the Dominant dog of the pack - but with all your advice it sounds like I should really not let them continue that kind of rough behavior. (Also - he is a complete gentleman on the leash and listens to all my commands.) -
> 
> Is it okay for them to play without any toys involved?


It sounds like you are a good owner providing well for your dog. He is lucky to have you.

Regarding rough play, I would stop that immediately. I don't allow rough play between my own or with anybody else's dog and I don't allow another dog to rough play with mine. Besides the obvious, such as injuries, even between equally matched dogs, rough play can way too easily escalate.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

kwath20 said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice, it is very appreciated! My GSD gets a ton of exercise - 2 walks/day, a ton of mental exercising (hide/seek) SAR exercises (from my park ranger bud), swimming, hiking and running in our creek - he's always on the move- so he isn't bored. I've been letting these two play rough and I guess I should stop that - we haven't had any problems until my gsd made that face - and since I immediately took the toy away and put him in his crate he hasn't made it again. My GSD never actually puts his mouth on the POM, just a lot of yipping, but my POM does get in his face a lot since he is the Dominant dog of the pack - but with all your advice it sounds like I should really not let them continue that kind of rough behavior. (Also - he is a complete gentleman on the leash and listens to all my commands.) -
> 
> Is it okay for them to play without any toys involved?


"Outside" should be fine. One of the things I've always "observed" with my guys is that they always took "turns" chasing and being chased ... if the little guy is "always" being pursued ... then you have another "problem."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are in the Ellicott City Area, contact P.U.P.S obedience. She has German Shepherds. Is highly experienced with aggression and works her dogs in IPO. Good trainers. Lovely people!
P.U.P.S Dog Obedience Training serving Maryland, Virginia, D.C.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Don't have anything to add. Just want to say, "Welcome!" - from another Marylander.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> It's perfectly fine for them to play together IF you are diligent.You know your dogs and can see when they begin to get irritated with each other.I've got a little dog who is usually the instigator,lol!*Whenever he starts trouble he's sent behind the baby gate,back in the house,etc.*It's no big deal and happens infrequently.
> I have found that making a fuss and correcting just gets them haired up.So just matter of factly separating them calms them.I can see them relax immediately.That's what works best for us anyway,switching off the excited behavior and replacing it with chill.


Mine play in the house too! They know the game is over if things get to rough or noisy.


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## kwath20 (May 18, 2016)

Thank you, Stevenzachsmom! 

I will definitely contact P.U.P.S Dog Obedience Training serving Maryland, Virginia, D.C. - I had not heard of them, thank you for the contact info, Jax08! 

MineAreWorkingline and everyone else thank you for all of your advice, it is incredibly helpful. I will definitely be creating a new play plan for these two immediately. Their rough play definitely is too rough for their size difference, I am glad I reached out to such knowledgeable people!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

kwath20 said:


> I will definitely contact P.U.P.S Dog Obedience Training serving Maryland, Virginia, D.C. - I had not heard of them, thank you for the contact info, Jax08!


The ladies there will take good care of you  They've been doing this a very long time.


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