# PMR from Newb to Now



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I thought I would share my raw feeding experience with the board to encourage those just starting out, and maybe help someone along that is experiencing troubles. 

I started raw feeding years ago because I was concerned with the crap my dogs were eating, and I had a dog with some severe skin / coat / ear issues. I think most people come to raw feeding as a solution to a problem, and rightly so. gut health is where the health of the animal is centered. A healthy gut, populated with all the right bacteria and having a proper ph goes a long way towards the overall health of your dog.At the same time, the gut not having to deal with large particles of indigestible food means it can do it's thing without interruption or inflammation.

I started by reading all I could find on the subject. The internet offers a multitude of raw feeding sources of information. I was pretty overwhelmed by the abundance of conflicting information. Everyone has a theory about what is "right" or "balanced." I came to the conclusion that dogs survive very well on their own in the wild, and no one weighs out the ingredients for every one of their meals. This can't be too hard to get right. I mean, people eat wildly varying diets over the course of a month, and thrive. As long a good basic nutritional needs are met, the small details are trivial IMO.

I used Raw Feeding as a guide, and it was very helpful. Lauri breaks down raw feeding into very simple terms and offers a system that is easy to follow. 

I was pretty nervous about the transition period. I started with chicken backs, no skin, watched the poop, did everything "right." It was interesting to me that at first, the dogs struggled with eating. They were all so used to little bits of food that it took them a while to figure out how to eat real meat. They would get confused and try and lick it to death, or shake their heads about when they got a piece of something that felt weird in their mouths. They caught on pretty quick and it was time to graduate to skin on backs.

This posed the first real problem for one of my dogs. He's a big fella (115 lb Cane Corso) and he got used to just crunching up a back a few times and swallowing it. Well, a big ole piece of whole chicken skin with fat attached didn't agree with his tummy, and up it came after about half an hour. Of course, he was right in the middle of the carpeted living room, and my wife was sitting right there. He proceeded to chew it into a couple of pieces and swallow it again.

At least he cleaned up after himself.

Through the early days, when switching to chicken quarters and then adding other proteins, there were definitely some stumbling blocks. The dogs had to adjust to things that their bodies had never had to deal with before. A small bout of loose stool when adding liver, super hard poop when bone levels got too high for too long, explosive squirts when I used a bad of dehydrated beef liver for a long training session after feeding liver that day. All normal in the transition period. Every dog was different. 

There was also a detox period, where some things that I was trying to alleviate with the raw diet actually got worse. Fama blew her coat, got an ear infection, was scratching like crazy, it was driving me nuts! She was also overweight when I got her (back) and was in the process of losing burning up those fat stores that (IMO) contained those histamine producing agents. She went on ozone blood treatments, a round of pred, and about 3 months of diphenhydramine to keep her from going insane.

Then, about 5 months in, things started to really click. I got a system down for processing large amounts of food. I got all the right equipment for weighing, grinding, stuffing bags, cleanup and associated processes squared away. The supplements started really kicking in too. I feed FEEDSentials and Sunday Sundae regularly. I also use several of the Carmspack oil supplements occasionally. Anytime I was feeding anything besides wild game, I would (and still do) add FEEDSentials. The dogs were eating anything I threw at them vigorously and not having any digestive issues. Poops were solid and crumbled into powder after a week. I was adding proteins regularly without any side effects.

However, I was working really hard at feeding my dogs. I weighed everything they ate. Tracked everything in excel. It took me as long to prepare dog food as people food, and I didn't have to cook it! Something just didn't seem right, so I took a step back, mentally, and thought about what my dogs needed, and how to deliver it to them in a way that worked for everyone involved.

Some people, and they very well may be smarter than me, would argue that perfect calcium / phosphorous balance is important for every meal, that certain bones should be avoided, that only organic fresh killed kosher meat is good enough for their dog. Whatever. I know that dogs don't pick and choose specific amounts of each type of organ when they consume an animal in the wild. They don't have spreadsheets and calculators and white papers. They eat stuff and thrive. So, I started taking a much simpler approach to feeding. Balance over time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I started getting a lot of free meat off of craigslist. I would pick up deer and elk carcasses after hunters were done with them, and gut piles after I got the hunters trained. I would get freezer dumps or leftover meat from last years deer harvest. What I did was build whole animals out of parts. Lauri had laid out a general proportion for meat, bones, organs, liver and I just concentrated on getting the dogs a general idea of that ratio throughout the week. 

So on to today. 


I don't feed chicken at all anymore. I find it cost prohibitive to feed organic chicken, and everything else gives Fama the itches. I will feed carcasses to the other two dogs for bone content if I'm running low on other stuff. Thanks to Cathy from Goosing Gus for the tip (they are super cheap). I feed mostly wild game. I don't think a deer can get hit by a car in my county without me getting a phone call. I stop and check road kill deer. If they are really stinky or bloated, I pass them up, but if they are reasonably fresh, they go in the truck. Occasionally, I will just cut the legs off and leave the rest for the scavengers. A couple of times cutting into the abdominal cavity of a ripe deer will teach you that it's not worth the trouble. I hunt all I can, and feed deer, pheasant (whole), rabbit (whole), elk, squirrel (whole) and quail. I also get the occasional animal from a farmer. I'm always careful to ask what antibiotics or meds the animal has been on recently. I just got done feeding 5 llamas.

Here's the process I go through, and how I generally feed. I had 5 live llamas dropped off to me. We humanely slaughtered them and went to town getting them quartered up. All the organs went into totes. All the hides went to someone that wanted them. When we got it home, the legs went into the freezer, whole with hide on. The rest of the carcasses were stripped of meat and the meat ground. The organs were all ground up together and bagged in 10 pound portions. All the ground meat was mixed with the appropriate amount of organ mix, ground dried bone meal (Big Dan's Trucking), supplements and then portioned into meal sized bags and frozen. The remainder of organs were mixed with supplements and coconut oil (virgin cold pressed) and portioned into daily sized meat balls and frozen. The heads and remaining carcasses were about 50% frozen, 50% thrown in the back yard. 

For the first few days, the dogs just eat the stuff in the back yard. The heads usually go first. They pick all the meat off everything and chew up some of the bones. I don't bother with any organs at this point. Fama walks around looking pregnant and spends a lot of time laying in the sun digesting probably 5 pounds of food. After the carcasses are relegated to recreational bones, I give them a day at least with no food. Then I feed in one of 2 ways.

I feed the prepackaged food, straight from the freezer. It is a complete meal, balanced with all the right organs and bone content, and I don't have to think twice about what they ate yesterday. This is how I feed when I'm busy, when someone else has to feed the dogs, or when I'm out of other stuff. It's basically my back-up food source.

I feed whole legs or big chunks of whatever is in the freezer. After about the right amount of time, and their bellies look about right, I trade them an organ meatball for whatever is left of the big chunk and it goes back into the freezer until tomorrow. When they get a leg stripped of meat, the bones stay in the yard for recreational chewing and so they can get the marrow out. Sometimes they stink a little bit, but not for long. I pick up the bones they discard for fresher stuff once in a while.

It's really cool (to me) to watch the dogs eat now. They are pros. They will put 2 feet on a leg and rip pieces of meat off to chew up. Sometimes, they will team up for better leverage. I don't advocate pack feeding. You have to know your dogs, and they have to be of the right temperament to willingly share food. Mine get along very well, so I don't worry about it now. It was a long process of moving food bowls closer to each other over time while carefully watching the dogs for subtle signs of discomfort. Read: don't try this at home if you don't have a lot of experience and the right dogs!

They generally take a chunk off to their own section of the yard and go to town.

their health has never been better. They enjoy meal time in a primal way, figuring out how to deal with a particular piece of meat. Eating a deer leg with the hide intact is not a simple thing if you don't have thumbs and a knife. It can take them an hour to eat sometimes, but it's no big deal to me if they are over or under fed on any given day. they will get what they need over time. If they start packing on pounds, they get less food. If they start to lean out, they get a heavy day or two. 

If you think about it, and pay attention to your dogs, it's not difficult at all.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Reading all you wentt through to get to the it-is-easy stage got me Tuckered out.:smile2:

I'm about 8 months new to raw and I do weigh but just started getting good at eye-balling the portions then weighing to see if my eyes were right. No joke.

I did read somewhere that the hide,fur and feathers do offer benefits to a raw fed dog. Micro minerals? I find the process of it all fascinating and a phenomenal learning experience. There seems to be a lot of cautions though concerning wild game. I read deer needs to be frozen for a few weeks? I'm asking if you have concern with that. 

I think the newbie stage is where all the weighing is done as many seasoned raw feeders on here do eyeball the portions/feed according to how the dog looks and acts.

I have considered calling the state police to see if there is a list I can get on for deer road kill. In this area, you can't just pick it up and take it. It has to be called in. 

I was not a member when you were active here but I read daily. I remember your post of Fama and her 1st chicken meals. Heck I'm a Fama fan.lol. It's nice to see your posts again as they were always very helpful.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I always contact the Sheriff's Department if they don't contact me first.

I don't know about the micro nutrients thing. I know that they eat the hide if it's on there, and that's good enough for me.

There is some concern about chronic wasting disease in deer. That effects the brain and spine. With deer around here, it's not a concern. There are other parasites that could be present in wild game. The information I have read states that the freeze / thaw cycle kills them, not prolonged freezing. 

I do freeze all organs before feeding, but the dogs get fresh scraps as I process deer and dig in right after on the carcasses. I guess it's a risk I'm willing to take. If I see anything wrong with the animal, other than man induced holes or car impact trauma, I don't feed any of it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am lucky to be in a co-op with past sale date meat. Human grade. I also get a beef grind and a venison grind from a processor. Yet I still find myself running short of bones. I don't feed many mammal bones as they are very dense. Duck necks are my choice for the go to if possible but they are getting expensive all the sudden.
Cathy from Goosing Gus was generous to send me some kefir grains so I am able to give a nice probiotic filled portion of kefir to the dogs daily.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, I go to the store and buy chicken leg quarters and pass them out. When I have a litter of puppies, I pass them drum sticks. Usually they eat the meat, and the dam does the bones. Sometimes they will squabble over a drum, so I get another and scruff one offering the other drum, and they get the point that taking this one is as good as fighting over that one. Puppies from 6 weeks on can do a number on drumsticks. 

Since my Honda has mowed down 4 deer, I keep threatening to make them dog meat. But, I don't have a separate freezer. My freezer is big enough for a rotted package of meat waiting for garbage night, some rainbow Sherbert, some bags of frozen veggies, and maybe some frozen appetizers. I couldn't freeze deer meat for a month or so to kill bugs. So I don't feed game. 

And, mostly I feed kibble, so when I pass around chicken legs, or freeze dried liver, that is like taking all the kids to Dairy Queen. 

It sounds like you have a working recipe though, and I bet time will show your dogs are getting better than any kibble-fed dogs. 

I'd feed horse-meat if I could, but people would be disgusted and protest. I love horses. But they die, and there is no reason that a predator wouldn't thrive off of a huge herbivore. Ah well, in the name of being politically correct, I won't vilify our dogs by suggesting them to be serial-horse-murderers. No one seems to mind them eating cows, pigs, or chickens though.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> Wow, I go to the store and buy chicken leg quarters and pass them out. When I have a litter of puppies, I pass them drum sticks. Usually they eat the meat, and the dam does the bones. Sometimes they will squabble over a drum, so I get another and scruff one offering the other drum, and they get the point that taking this one is as good as fighting over that one. Puppies from 6 weeks on can do a number on drumsticks.
> 
> Since my Honda has mowed down 4 deer, I keep threatening to make them dog meat. But, I don't have a separate freezer. My freezer is big enough for a rotted package of meat waiting for garbage night, some rainbow Sherbert, some bags of frozen veggies, and maybe some frozen appetizers. I couldn't freeze deer meat for a month or so to kill bugs. So I don't feed game.
> 
> ...


I have picked up a couple freezers off craigslist. I have 40 cu. ft. of dog freezer 

I'm going to slaughter a horse in the next couple weeks! I don't care if people freak out. The horse is going to die. I might as well utilize the meat for the dogs. It weighs about 800 pounds. That's going to be a rough day.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I have picked up a couple freezers off craigslist. I have 40 cu. ft. of dog freezer
> 
> I'm going to slaughter a horse in the next couple weeks! I don't care if people freak out. The horse is going to die. I might as well utilize the meat for the dogs. It weighs about 800 pounds. That's going to be a rough day.


It sounds good. 

I really have no place for a freezer. I could put it in the sun/dog room, but I've no electricity in there, so I would have to use a big extension cord, and half of my sockets don't work due to these shorts that trailers get, and the outside wall sockets have my room ACs in them at the ends of the house. When I vacuum, I need to turn one of those off, or I trip the breaker. I no longer have overhead lighting in the living room or the dining room, one due to a short, the other caught the wall on fire because of some nail the former owners put in there -- that is totally shorted too, so I sue a lamp in there, and in the living room, and wow, that sounds like four pages of excuses for why I can't have a freezer to feed raw. 

Really, my place is too small and the electricity can't even manage a decent sized microwave. LOL!

The horse sounds good though. I know slaughtering it sounds horrible. But, I really think that dogs were meant to eat horse meat. IF you think about it. Humans grow attached to the animals they work with regularly, your horse that plows your fields, or pulls your buggy, or that you ride all day -- you would have a hard time eating him. Anyone would. He has a name, and wasn't intended all along for meat. But the dogs, lean flesh from a grass-eating critter, probably ideal in all nutrients. I think dog food used to be mainly horse-meat.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We feed some raw along with their kibble. Mostly chicken, be we add beef, turkey and duck when we can get it. We give them chicken feet for snacks, but I trim the nails first, some are pretty dang sharp, lol


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

A very insightful post, thank you! It is especially great to hear about the progress of knowledge first hand.

You have an awesome set up. I am a bit soft when it comes to feeding raw, but the doge has slowly been making me get over it! I still don't think I'd ever be able to do slaughtering, but it would save me so much money! Not to mention superior freshness and knowledge of what processes the meat has been through. 

I have been able to get my hands on large kangaroo legs and tails, he loves them. Those tails are dang heavy, though. I'm a puny weakling, so lugging a roo tail almost as tall as myself is a huge deal for me :nerd: Unfortunately I still have to pay a pretty penny for whole rabbits and goat from my favourite butcher 

Can I ask if you feed any fish?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> It sounds good.
> 
> I really have no place for a freezer. I could put it in the sun/dog room, but I've no electricity in there, so I would have to use a big extension cord, and half of my sockets don't work due to these shorts that trailers get, and the outside wall sockets have my room ACs in them at the ends of the house. When I vacuum, I need to turn one of those off, or I trip the breaker. I no longer have overhead lighting in the living room or the dining room, one due to a short, the other caught the wall on fire because of some nail the former owners put in there -- that is totally shorted too, so I sue a lamp in there, and in the living room, and wow, that sounds like four pages of excuses for why I can't have a freezer to feed raw.
> 
> ...


Before I was set up like I am now, with 2 big freezers, a grinder I built out of an old #22 and a 3/4 HP commercial hood fan motor, it really was taxing to feed raw, especially 6 pounds a day. It was rather expensive, and I had to work much harder at it than I do now. Many people do it without the same gear, but it wasn't something I was willing to do. I wasn't willing to spend the money to buy everything either. 

It's definitely not for everyone, but I decided I was going to make it work, if only just for Fama, because of her health issues, and because she saved my life countless times and I owe it to her to do everything I can to give her the best quality of life possible.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chai said:


> Can I ask if you feed any fish?


I do occasionally feed fish, when I get it for free from a friend or freezer dump. I don't fish myself though, so it's not often. I'm a gun guy


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, I have my bid in for the publisher's clearing house, and I have another bid in with the guys at work for the mega-millions or whatever flavor they are dishing up, and if that ever happens, I have in my plans for refrigerators, freezers, dishwashers -- all in a basement kitchen, just for the dogs. I am thinking 50/50 fresh pet Vital, and RAW. 

Until then, we are going to go with boring dry kibble, using freeze-dried liver, and the occasional chicken leg quarter to replace a meal here and there. Six pounds of raw doesn't feed my boys, Oscar, Mufasa, and Cujo. I have more girls. The idea of feeding raw is daunting. What is good is that they do know what to do with it, when I take 30-40 pounds of leg quarters out there and pass them about. I got them for 58cents/pound last week. So everyone definitely got them -- that's cheaper than kibble. 

And the remaining 3 leg quarters I simmered with celery, onion, parsley, spices, and carrot till I had a nice broth and the meat was cooked, Then I par-boiled carrots and turnips, and made a white sauce. Then I added some of the broth, and took the meat and skin off the bones and added that to the sauce. Then I put some frozen peas in with the carrots and turnips, drained all that, and added that to the sauce. And I drained off the rest of the broth and put the soggy celery, onion, carrots, and spice into the sauce. And mixed it with Basmati Rice and ate it for a week. I should say, Babs and I and the werewolf ate it for a week. 

Usually, though, even leg quarters are around 99 cents/pound, and that becomes cost-prohibitive.


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