# German Shepherd Dog Size



## radulf

German shepherds are supposed to be medium sized dogs, which makes sense since it’s the best size for a versatile working dog and even most herding dogs are that size, so my question is, does the GSD of medium size still exists? And by that I mean dogs whose ideal weight is bellow 75 lb for males and 57 lb for females.


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## Emoore

Rocky was below 75lb for many years. Now that he's become a senior and he's more sedentary, his weight has edged up to 77 or 78lb, but he is certainly a medium-sized GSD. Kopper's ideal weight is currently below 75lb, but at 16 months I'm not sure whether he'll be above or below that mark at full maturity.


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## selzer

radulf said:


> German shepherds are supposed to be medium sized dogs, which makes sense since it’s the best size for a versatile working dog and even most herding dogs are that size, so my question is, does the GSD of medium size still exists? And by that I mean dogs whose ideal weight is bellow 75 lb for males and 57 lb for females.


I am just curious, where does your definition of medium size come from?


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## Emoore

I think the SV standard has a weight for males of 30-40 kg (66-88lb) and females 22-32 kg (49-72lb). I guess under those guidelines OP's definition would be "medium".


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## sashadog

Well Sasha hovers between about 68 and 72 lbs. Alot of the GSD's I know are right within the standard that Emoore mentioned as well. So yes. In my area at least, it still exists.


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## Cassidy's Mom

The midrange of the SV standard is approximately 77 pounds for males and 59.5 pounds for females. Halo is usually right around 60 pounds, so she's almost exactly at the midpoint, Keefer is usually around 80 pounds, so he's a little over the midpoint, but still well within the standard. There do seem to be a lot of oversized GSDs out there, but not all of them are.


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## codmaster

Emoore said:


> I think the SV standard has a weight for males of 30-40 kg (66-88lb) and females 22-32 kg (49-72lb). I guess under those guidelines OP's definition would be "medium".


 
And the AKC standard in the US doesn't specify a weight just a height range (about the same as the SV 24-26" males and 22-24' for females.

that sounds like a good weight for that size.

My 4yo male is just about 27" (little over size) and about 87 lbs depending on when he has eaten!

he certainly seems to be medium sized to me.


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## radulf

selzer said:


> I am just curious, where does your definition of medium size come from?


 The reason I’m delimiting the size of dogs by weight instead of height is because the physical conformation of dogs is so wide that you can have short dogs of heavy physic like english bulldogs or tall but lean dogs like greyhounds, so height is not a good pointer to classify dogs by size. Now, with the GSD, the wide range (too wide if you ask me) of weight that the standard allows, 66 to 88 lb for males and 48 to 70 lb for females, has made of the GSD a large dog instead of the medium size dog that is supposed to be. So by looking at other breeds that are considered to be of medium size, I delimited a range around 44 to 75 lb, then I overlap it with the standard of the GSD which give us a range of 66 to 75 lb for males and 48 to 57 lb. Hope that answered your question.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

Sasha seems medium size to me. I can't remember her exact height but it was within that 22-24" I believe. She's 70lbs, which to me makes her a medium sized dog, albeit perhaps on the upper end of weight for the breed for her sex.


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## radulf

Emoore said:


> Rocky was below 75lb for many years. Now that he's become a senior and he's more sedentary, his weight has edged up to 77 or 78lb, but he is certainly a medium-sized GSD. Kopper's ideal weight is currently below 75lb, but at 16 months I'm not sure whether he'll be above or below that mark at full maturity.


 If is not too much of a bother I would like to see a photo of him in his prime. And also of those within the range, thank you.


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## selzer

Ok, I think even Milla and Ninja are out of your range for medium sized. But medium size is subjective, really. If you are accustomed to collie/shepherd sized dogs, and not a stranger to St. Bernards, Great Danes, and Mastiffs, the properly-sized GSD look kind of small in comparison. If your used to Yorkies and Chis, well then a properly-sized GSD looks huge, large breed for sure. 

It really all comes down to character though. If you have matched the dog to the owner, then the size of the dog is perfect.


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## Liesje

All of my GSDs fit the OP's standard. Nikon is 70-75lbs (depending on time of year and if I'm showing him in a UKC show) at 3.5 years, and Pan is 71lbs at 19 months. Kenya my 8 year old female is usually 50-53lbs.

Nikon













































Pan




































Kenya


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## Beau

Not to hijack an interesting thread, but I really love your dogs! So beautiful!


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## cliffson1

You tend to see the type/size GS you are inquiring about in some of the dog sports that emphasize agility, (French ring, KNPV,etc), and many of the non European police dogs I see are this size.


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## DianaM

Clifton, would you know of some lines that tend to produce the smaller end of the size scale? I've seen a fair amount of the upper/over-standard dogs and yes, they can move if well-built but a smaller dog seems to fly.


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## ponyfarm

Dogs that size exist..my pup's parents both weigh about 75 lbs. To see the sire..goggle *Jabina-Eros.* It is a great size for me. I like to participate in obedience/dock diving/rally and a smaller dog is better.


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## Liesje

I think that many GSDs look larger than life. I've gotten so many comments on Nikon's size, head, and bone and then when people meet him in person they are surprised at how compact he is. Most people guess he weighs 80-90lbs and he weighs 70. For me this is ideal - a dog that does not have the appearance of being small or fine, but appears well-boned and masculine yet is not large or heavy. I'm really happy with how he's matured, both his overall appearance and his actual size. Pan I believe will end up over 75lbs since he is already as tall as Nikon and only 19 months. However I did intentionally ask for a smaller male and growing up he was usually 10-15lbs lighter than his litter brothers. I like the medium size for sports. I think it is safer for the dogs (especially flyball, since all the equipment is a fixed size, fixed height, there's no way to make accommodations for a larger dog like in agility where you can run lower jump heights and pace your dog slower). I also like that my dogs are easy to manage for me, physically. I took Nikon to get a dog massage at a recent flyball event and the lady had this look of dread on her face b/c she does the massage up on a grooming table. I said no problem and easily lifted Nikon on/off her table. Smaller = less to feed, easier loading in/out of vehicles, easy for me to lift and carry when I have to, more comfortable in normal sized crates. Pan is the fastest U-fli flyball German Shepherd in history. He's not what I consider small, but there's nothing excessive about him. He's lean, a bit finer boned (for a male), and doesn't have a huge bulky head. Everything about his body is....efficient. He's not the best or most impressive looking dog, but he is fast and runs clean and safe.


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## DianaM

> For me this is ideal - a dog that does not have the appearance of being small or fine, but appears well-boned and masculine yet is not large or heavy.


Agreed! People think Renji is much larger than he really is and tend to think twice about approaching him. Even had someone try to come into the gate only to see a faceful of angry Renji. He screamed "THERE'S A BIG EFFING DOG HERE." Renji is 50 lbs soaking wet but ridiculously fast and agile. To me, that's perfect. Have the presence of a rottweiler, the speed of a whippet, the agility of a border collie, wrapped up in a very manageable size. 



> Everything about his body is....efficient.


Perfect! That is an excellent way to put it. Not a small GSD, not an oversize GSD, an "efficiently sized" GSD.

Lies, do you have links to videos of Pan in action?

Ponyfarm, thanks for that. A lot of people like the Jabina dogs. I'd like to meet one sometime.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Liesje said:


> I think that many GSDs look larger than life. I've gotten so many comments on Nikon's size, head, and bone and then when people meet him in person they are surprised at how compact he is. Most people guess he weighs 80-90lbs and he weighs 70.


Very true, it's difficult to tell how large a dog is from a picture, even when near another dog or a person, unless you know how large that person or other dog is! I'd definitely have guessed Nikon to be bigger, it's hard to imagine him being 10 pounds less than Keef, who is also big boned with a large masculine head.


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## cliffson1

There really are no lines anymore that seem to emphasize the smaller dog....dogs like Arek vom Stoffelblick seem to have a tendency to produce smaller dogs but it really comes down to what the general genetic composition is.


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## Liesje

DianaM said:


> Lies, do you have links to videos of Pan in action?


Pan's flyball videos - YouTube

Also Debbie's Halo is doing flyball and I believe she's a medium/correct sized female,if I recall she's under or near 60lbs. Falon's Kastle is doing flyball and he's still under 60lbs I think (he's a year old next month). Nikon does flyball too but he's not as fast as Pan or Kastle (he started around 5.2 and now is getting closer to 4.5 but is never going to be a 4.0 or sub-4 dog like Pan).


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## Cassidy's Mom

Yep, Halo is right around 60 pounds, and most of that is hair! :wild:


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## NancyJ

My breeder actually bred two dogs on the small size and out came Baby Huey (for those who remember the comics)

Actually at 9 mos Beau is not THAT big - 70lbs but I imagine he will wind up 80-85 since he is already 24 inches at the shoulder 

Grim is 70-75 and that is a nice working size for me-he is 23 inches at the shoulder.


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## robk

Ruger is 11.5 months old and is on the smaller size. He is 24 inches and 62lbs. I know he is just a pup and has more growing to do but I expect him to always be on the smaller size. Both of his parents were dutch imports with KNVP dogs on top and bottom of his pedigree. I am not sure if that is really connected to his small size or not but it satisfies the bigger is better crowd who always comment on his size.


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## codmaster

I had a couple of breeders tell me that a GSD has reached just about their adult size in height by about 9-10 mo but they will add some pounds as they get to about 2yo.


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## codmaster

jocoyn said:


> My breeder actually bred two dogs on the small size and out came Baby Huey (for those who remember the comics)
> 
> Actually at 9 mos Beau is not THAT big - 70lbs but I imagine he will wind up 80-85 since he is already 24 inches at the shoulder
> 
> Grim is 70-75 and that is a nice working size for me-he is 23 inches at the shoulder.


 
23 would be a little under the AKC standard for a male GSD *(24-26").*


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## doggiedad

don't tell anybody i said this but i think you have
a big as in big dog. :shocked:



codmaster said:


> And the AKC standard in the US doesn't specify a weight just a height range (about the same as the SV 24-26" males and 22-24' for females.
> 
> that sounds like a good weight for that size.
> 
> >>>>> My 4yo male is just about 27" (little over size) and about 87 lbs depending on when he has eaten!<<<<
> 
> >>>>> he certainly seems to be medium sized to me.<<<<<


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## codmaster

doggiedad said:


> don't tell anybody i said this but i think you have
> a big as in big dog. :shocked:


 
Depends on what one considers a BIG dog. 

27" is a tad oversize according to the AKC standard but is not a big dog as dogs go. Mastiff, Great Dane, LeonBerger, etc. are what I would consider big dogs.

Plus, if I can pick him up, I don't consider him a big dog.


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## JakodaCD OA

Masi has flunked her size standard, had her in the other day for her annual, she's 26" at the shoulders and lean 80lbs...The only other female I had was 26" and around 70lbs. Masi is longer in body I would say.

My males were 26" and around 80lbs except for the "mutant" who was 32" and 125lbs.

Oh well, love them anyway, they weren't picked for their 'size', just ended up being what they are


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## radulf

DianaM said:


> I've seen a fair amount of the upper/over-standard dogs and yes, they can move if well-built but a smaller dog seems to fly.





Liesje said:


> For me this is ideal - a dog that does not have the appearance of being small or fine, but appears well-boned and masculine yet is not large or heavy.


 Exactly! As I see it, being a medium sized dog is an asset for a versatile and multi-purpose working dog like the GSD, which, in contrast with a bigger dog, would mean more speed, agility, endurance and, in the long run, less stress for the body (specially the joints).


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## radulf

Okay, first of all thanks for all the answers so far and to come. Now, for what I’m seeing, the medium sized GSD still exist but is not your average GSD as it should be, it’s more like the oddity.


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## radulf

codmaster said:


> Depends on what one considers a BIG dog.
> 
> Mastiff, Great Dane, LeonBerger, etc. are what I would consider big dogs.





selzer said:


> But medium size is subjective, really. If you are accustomed to collie/shepherd sized dogs, and not a stranger to St. Bernards, Great Danes, and Mastiffs, the properly-sized GSD look kind of small in comparison. If your used to Yorkies and Chis, well then a properly-sized GSD looks huge, large breed for sure.


 For a better reference of what I mean, a good example of a medium sized breed would be the Siberian Husky, while the Alaskan Malamute is a large breed. The St. Bernard, English Mastiff and the like are well above in the giant (extra-large) breeds.


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## Dainerra

Singe just measured at 24" and 74 lbs at 16 months old.


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## selzer

Most of my girls are 24 inches or slightly over 24. A few are 23 inches. And Milla and a few of the others are around 60 pounds, where my heaviest girls are around 70 on fat days. So they are not gigundo dogs. 

The funny thing is, I get people who say they are really large, and other people who say they are really small.


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## Dainerra

selzer said:


> The funny thing is, I get people who say they are really large, and other people who say they are really small.


THIS  For every person who asks why my dogs are so small/skinny there are 2 more who panic at the sight of my "huge" dog


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## Liesje

According to the vet visit this morning, Pan weighs 68lbs and Nikon weighs 71. I am 5'7". They don't seem oddly small or short to me!


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## BlackthornGSD

My first female GSD was big--24" and 78 pounds. My next girl was Nike -- 22" and 55 pounds. 

Now I have 5 females under 65 pounds for normal weight--Jubilee (22.5) and Xita (22.5 ish) are around 59 pounds; Hunter is 65 (23"), Oda is 65 pounds, probably 23". 

Young Nemi is going to be the big girl--she's 65 pounds at 8 months--but she doesn't look it. I think she's just very heavy boned. 

As long as the dogs are within the standard and have good bone strength, I'm happy with the small size--tremendous agility, easier time handling the heat, and easier to have in the house. But I still love the looks of a large (but within standard!) male.


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## codmaster

BlackthornGSD said:


> My first female GSD was big--24" and 78 pounds. My next girl was Nike -- 22" and 55 pounds.
> 
> Now I have 5 females under 65 pounds for normal weight--Jubilee (22.5) and Xita (22.5 ish) are around 59 pounds; Hunter is 65 (23"), Oda is 65 pounds, probably 23".
> 
> Young Nemi is going to be the big girl--she's 65 pounds at 8 months--but she doesn't look it. I think she's just very heavy boned.
> 
> As long as the dogs are within the standard and have good bone strength, I'm happy with the small size--tremendous agility, easier time handling the heat, and easier to have in the house. But I still love the looks of a large (but within standard!) male.


Both of your first ones were within the AKC standard (22-24") for females.


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## BlackthornGSD

codmaster said:


> Both of your first ones were within the AKC standard (22-24") for females.


Yes, indeed. In fact, both of them were koerclassed (breed surveyed) and bred.

But my point was that they can be *big* or *small* while within the standard. Frost was a seriously solid chunk of a dog and was at the top of the standard, while Nike was at the very bottom of the standard.

Nike was athletic as all get out--her first time on a dog walk in agility training, she was doing 360s on the 12" board trying to figure out which direction I wanted her to go. And she flew in bitework and over the 1 meter wall....


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## mharrisonjr26

In my opinion My male Bruno is of a medium structure and weight he is 17 months. He weighs 75 pounds and Stands 65.5 cm, and to me especially next to his father He would be considered medium. Next to brunos Uncle whjo is 30 in 125 pounds his father is small .Bruno still has to fill out but his father is 105 and I dont expect my boy to reach near that. My female is 62 cm she is 70 pounds but she is to me somewhat masculine


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## pets4life

60 is too small 100 is too big 70-90 is perfect german shepherds are large dogs they are not medium sized dogs they are LARge dogs like a rottie or a doberman. 


a medium sized dog is a lab or a border col, aussie shepherd, cattle dog, siberian husky, samoyed, mal, pitbull um do i have to go on? 


a extra large dog is a malamute or a great pyr 

a giant dog is a mastiff, great dane, st bernard etc..


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## codmaster

pets4life said:


> 60 is too small 100 is too big 70-90 is perfect german shepherds are large dogs they are not medium sized dogs they are *LARge dogs like a rottie or a doberman. *
> 
> 
> a medium sized dog is a lab or a border col, aussie shepherd, cattle dog, siberian husky, samoyed, mal, pitbull um do i have to go on?
> 
> 
> a extra large dog is a malamute or a great pyr
> 
> a giant dog is a mastiff, great dane, st bernard etc..


 
Rotties are MUCH bigger than a GSD (Standard sized in each)

Rottie - Technically a "medium / large" breed, according to the FCI standard the Rottweiler stands 61 to 69 cm* (24"-27")* at the withers for males, 56 to 63 cm *(22"-25") for* females, and the weight must be between 50 to 58 kg *(110-130 lbs) for males* and between 40–48 kg (90-105 lbs) for females. Weight must be relative to height."


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## pets4life

hmm that is strange because every rottie i have seen is shorter and seems smaller than my shepherd who is mature at 90 pound and very athletic working shepher 1/2 czech half german. I had no idea the rottie standard was like that most of them seem small compared. I guess they are extra large but not giant breeds.


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## Falkosmom

pets4life said:


> hmm that is strange because every rottie i have seen is shorter and seems smaller than my shepherd who is mature at 90 pound and very athletic working shepher 1/2 czech half german. I had no idea the rottie standard was like that most of them seem small compared. I guess they are extra large but not giant breeds.


 
The Rotties I see that are from reputable breeders are usually standard height or a little larger. I see plenty Rotties from backyard breeders and they can be rather small.


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## radulf

pets4life said:


> ... german shepherds are large dogs they are not medium sized dogs they are LARge dogs like a rottie or a doberman.


 Yep, for what I’m seeing most GSDs seem to be like that, and that's why I'm wondering if there are still GSDs of medium size, 66 to 75 lb for males (to be within the standard), as they’re supposed to be.


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## codmaster

radulf said:


> Yep, for what I’m seeing most GSDs seem to be like that, and that's why I'm wondering if there are still GSDs of medium size, 66 to 75 lb for males (*to be within the standard*), as they’re supposed to be.


 
The US standard for GSD's does not list any weight for them. Only size at the withers!


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## GsdLoverr729

My current girl, Koda, is 58-60 lbs and fluctuates from morning to night. However, her sister is 63 and her brother is 145 (ya. Monstrous beast). 
My past two were 90 lbs, then 85 lbs. I prefer dogs on the larger side of the standard. Yes they are less agile blah blah blah and they're "medium" dogs but I like the punch my two males could pack with their lean weight.
Plus, I myself am a petite 100 lb girl and it is a great convo starter when people see me with a larger shepherd (not oversized, just larger). Because the dog is so big they get more curious. Then I get to brag on my breed and explain that training and good breeders are the key


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## msvette2u

If 70lb. is a medium sized dog, what's small, and what's large!?

Dogster has x-small at under 10lb, small at 11-25lb, medium 26-50lb, and large at 51-100lb. XL is over 100lb!
That's how I tend to think of sizes as well, for instance, Libby ranges from 38-40lb, and to me, that's medium.


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## GsdLoverr729

msvette2u said:


> If 70lb. is a medium sized dog, what's small, and what's large!?
> 
> Dogster has x-small at under 10lb, small at 11-25lb, medium 26-50lb, and large at 51-100lb. XL is over 100lb!
> That's how I tend to think of sizes as well, for instance, Libby ranges from 38-40lb, and to me, that's medium.


:thumbup:


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## radulf

codmaster said:


> The US standard for GSD's does not list any weight for them. Only size at the withers!


 But the international standard (FCI), which is the German one, does. For males 66 to 88 lb and 48.5 to 70.5 lb for females.




msvette2u said:


> If 70lb. is a medium sized dog, what's small, and what's large!?
> 
> Dogster has x-small at under 10lb, small at 11-25lb, medium 26-50lb, and large at 51-100lb. XL is over 100lb!
> That's how I tend to think of sizes as well, for instance, Libby ranges from 38-40lb, and to me, that's medium.


 This shows you how generous I’m being with my set limit in order to be within the standard, although I’d stretch the medium size range to be more around 15 to 30 kg (33 to 66 lb). And GSDs are supposed to be medium sized dogs.


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## codmaster

radulf said:


> But the international standard (FCI), which is the German one, does. For males 66 to 88 lb and 48.5 to 70.5 lb for females.
> 
> 
> *I live in the United States so I use the US standard, Germany and Europe residents would probably use the FCI standard, naturally.*
> 
> 
> This shows you how generous I’m being with my set limit in order to be within the standard, although I’d stretch the medium size range to be more around 15 to 30 kg (33 to 66 lb). And GSDs are supposed to be medium sized dogs.


 
They* are* medium sized dogs, if they are healthy and within the height limit of the US standard.

For a check, compare a std sized GSD to a Great Dane or a Rottie and see if there is a difference in the size of the animals. Large vs Giant vs Medium.

Many, many GSD's today are way oversized, so maybe that is what you are seeing! Some of these would certainly range into "Large" dogs, BUT that is not what they are supposed to be!


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## Debbieg

This thread made me weigh and measure Benny. He is 27 inches from floor to shoulder and 95 pounds! He has grown an inch and gained 8 pounds in the last year. He goes in at the waist and does not seem over weight. Does he need to lose?
Here are two pic taken today at tracking.


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## Liesje

msvette2u said:


> If 70lb. is a medium sized dog, what's small, and what's large!?


To me a small dog is a Beagle or a JRT. A large dog is a Rottweiler or Bullmastif. A giant dog is a Great Dane or Newf.


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## msvette2u

Liesje said:


> To me a small dog is a Beagle or a JRT. A large dog is a Rottweiler or Bullmastif. A giant dog is a Great Dane or Newf.


I'd say the same but I group dogs over 50lb as large... Labs, Goldens, and gsds. 
I think if right at 50lb its either a larger medium dog or a smaller large dog


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## PaddyD

Abby is 25.5 and 70 pounds yet people comment on how small and slim she is. According to the standard she is just over the top. Other females I see are bigger than her.


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## codmaster

PaddyD said:


> Abby is 25.5 and 70 pounds yet people comment on how small and slim she is. According to the standard she is just over the top. Other females I see are bigger than her.
> View attachment 17104


Actually, the US standard says 22-24" for a female GSD. Although I suspect that there are few in the show ring anywhere near the lower range of the standard.


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## OriginalWacky

Not that it makes a huge difference, but in my own mind the way I classify dogs is something along these lines:

Tiny = 10 lb and under
Small = 11-25 lb
Medium = 26-50 lb
Large 51-90 lb
Extra Large 91-120 lb
Giant = 121 lb and over
*(Additional categories -
That's not a dog, it's a horse! = 180 lb and up Hahaha
I have cats bigger than that! = 3 lb and under
Hahaha)*


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## GsdLoverr729

OriginalWacky said:


> Not that it makes a huge difference, but in my own mind the way I classify dogs is something along these lines:
> 
> Tiny = 10 lb and under
> Small = 11-25 lb
> Medium = 26-50 lb
> Large 51-90 lb
> Extra Large 91-120 lb
> Giant = 121 lb and over
> *(Additional categories -
> That's not a dog, it's a horse! = 180 lb and up Hahaha
> I have cats bigger than that! = 3 lb and under
> Hahaha)*


Hahaha! This I relate to


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## mharrisonjr26

OriginalWacky said:


> Not that it makes a huge difference, but in my own mind the way I classify dogs is something along these lines:
> 
> Tiny = 10 lb and under
> Small = 11-25 lb
> Medium = 26-50 lb
> Large 51-90 lb
> Extra Large 91-120 lb
> Giant = 121 lb and over
> *(Additional categories -
> That's not a dog, it's a horse! = 180 lb and up Hahaha
> I have cats bigger than that! = 3 lb and under
> Hahaha)*


 
*I think that should be an official size chart i love it lol.*


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## mharrisonjr26

Ok i consider my gsd's to be of medium size my male at 18 months is 26" in and 75 pounds. My breeder said he will fill out to 85-90 but I dont see this happening but he know his dogs better, also i just got in from the vet and my lady is 69 pounds and just under 24 in at the shoulder but she looks 80 pounds. Now my gf's uncle has a 130 pound J.A.B and my dogs both look very slim. next to a mastiff my pups look like pups.


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## rarerare37

Well to be honest, people who look at these standards to me are missing something. These standards were written over a hundred years ago. All domestic animals and people have naturally gotten bigger over the past 100+ years. During the American Revolution the avg American male was 5'7inches. Today it's 5'10inches. I am around race horses and can tell you the avg thoroughbred in the US has increased by a hand+ (4 inches +) over the past 120 years. Why do people think the gsd should not have increased in size? Due to improved nutrition alone this would cause people or animals to increase in size. This is scientific fact. To me a gsd should have increased in size and weight due to better knowledge of nutrition for the pregnant bitch and the puppies after birth. Using 100+ year old standards is just plan nutty. Thats my opinion anyway.


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## mharrisonjr26

rarerare37 said:


> Well to be honest, people who look at these standards to me are missing something. These standards were written over a hundred years ago. All domestic animals and people have naturally gotten bigger over the past 100+ years. During the American Revolution the avg American male was 5'7inches. Today it's 5'10inches. I am around race horses and can tell you the avg thoroughbred in the US has increased by a hand+ (4 inches +) over the past 120 years. Why do people think the gsd should not have increased in size? Due to improved nutrition alone this would cause people or animals to increase in size. This is scientific fact. To me a gsd should have increased in size and weight due to better knowledge of nutrition for the pregnant bitch and the puppies after birth. Using 100+ year old standards is just plan nutty. Thats my opinion anyway.


J/W have you ever seen an oversized gsd doing police work or herding livestock all day . As far as the breeds evolving I can understand, but I dont think an increase in size is natural for all living things. Some things have infact gotten smaller like Insects and almost all animals actually. There is a very good reason for the standard .Cpt.Max von stephanitz the father of the breed had very specific reasoning for creating the gsd. There is a reason they have been one of the greatest most popular breeds in history. Its not because they have gotten bigger. Can you explain what you mean by people who look at these standard are missing something? What is it that we are missing?


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## GsdLoverr729

I think that if the breed is able to retain its purpose, ability, temperament, look, etc that it may not be so bad for them to be larger. BUT, they should not be purposely bred to increase size. If the dog ends up larger but is still a great example of his/her breed then I have no problem with it (particularly because many other species have increased in size including us). Just my thoughts  Not tryin to start a war or argue woth anyone.

mharrison- I have had two police k9s (one retired and one washout) and both were over the size stated in the standard xD This isn't typical, but that's just the two I have had


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## Falkosmom

mharrisonjr26 said:


> J/W have you ever seen an oversized gsd doing police work or herding livestock all day . As far as the breeds evolving I can understand, but I dont think an increase in size is natural for all living things. Some things have infact gotten smaller like Insects and almost all animals actually. There is a very good reason for the standard .Cpt.Max von stephanitz the father of the breed had very specific reasoning for creating the gsd. There is a reason they have been one of the greatest most popular breeds in history. Its not because they have gotten bigger. Can you explain what you mean by people who look at these standard are missing something? What is it that we are missing.


I remember reading an article many years ago about St George's County, I think in Maryland, but I really don't remember the geographic details. However, their police were using GSDs averaging 125#s. The article went on to state that the police were going to quit using the big dogs not because they were too big to work, but because the dogs were capable of doing so much more damage. This decision came about as a result of lawsuits against the force because of the extensive damage being done when the dogs were apprehending criminals. The straw that broke the camels back was when they were searching a warehouse and a dog did some serious damage to a homeless man that was taking refuge there. The homeless man was not the criminal being sought. 

I guess the homeless man isn't homeless anymore, eh?


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## mharrisonjr26

Thats a big dog Gsd or not lol I guess my foots in my mouth but I still haven't seen to many 120 pounders at my club or any club I've visited maybe once or twice. Probably that would include my life but i could be wrong. Anyways I dont see why everyone wants a huge dog.


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## GsdLoverr729

Huge dogs are great for increased intimidation, SOMETIMES. Also, the increased damage is attractive to some people. I am a very small female (I myself waver between 95-100 lbs), and I have always felt a strong pull towards dogs that can aid me if I am unable to defend myself. Growing up I was taught larger dogs do more damage and are better at this.

Granted, my current shepherd is only 60-65 lbs and is fully capable of inflicting damage (though I am proud to say she is a big mushmellon). xD


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## Falkosmom

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Thats a big dog Gsd or not lol I guess my foots in my mouth but I still haven't seen to many 120 pounders at my club or any club I've visited maybe once or twice. Probably that would include my life but i could be wrong. Anyways I dont see why everyone wants a huge dog.


I read that article a good 20-30 years ago. 

I am not promoting big dogs, but I just thought that article was interesting and worth mentioning.


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## mharrisonjr26

It was your on a roll (Falkosmom) by the way. I had a gsd who was oversized 31 at the shoulders and about 135- 140 ponds at 30 months huge but couldnt run with my 95 pound male for 10 minutes. Was intimedating he was softas a pillow but huge. He had longer hair too and he was pure gsd akc papers picked him up from XXXXXXX out of florida. So my statement is from personal experience.


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## GsdLoverr729

mharrisonjr26 said:


> It was your on a roll (Falkosmom) by the way. I had a gsd who was oversized 31 at the shoulders and about 135- 140 ponds at 30 months huge but couldnt run with my 95 pound male for 10 minutes. Was intimedating he was softas a pillow but huge. He had longer hair too and he was pure gsd akc papers picked him up from XXXXXXX out of florida. So my statement is from personal experience.


Now that is a big shepherd!!! O-O Lol! Doesn't surprise me that he couldn't keep up with the smaller male though


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## mharrisonjr26

Yeah his father and mother where overe 115 he was huge but he only lived to be 5 bad story.


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## Falkosmom

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Yeah his father and mother where overe 115 he was huge but he only lived to be 5 bad story.


Ouch, that is young.


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## pets4life

put your gsd next to a cattle dog aussie shep, border collie, spgriner spaniel or siberian husky (not a giant malamute or sled dog mix) gsds are much larger those dogs i do not conisder large they are medium though not small


the mal is a medium sized dog also my trainer has them and they are much smaller than my working shep my friend has 3 ridgebacks 2 female are slighty smaller than my shep and the male is a bit bigger. Most dobies i see are a bit smaller also. I consider them large dogs also about the size of shepherds. But 65-85 pounds is a big dog.


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## pets4life

Also i went to some dog shows in canada. I didnt enroll my dog but my friend breeds and competes dogs (not gsd). I was just watching with mine. The gsd males in the show were bigger than my 90 pound dog here in canada. They were huge. I dont think people are weghing them in shows or even care about weights at all. They were really big dogs.


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## rarerare37

mharrisonjr26 said:


> J/W have you ever seen an oversized gsd doing police work or herding livestock all day . As far as the breeds evolving I can understand, but I dont think an increase in size is natural for all living things. Some things have infact gotten smaller like Insects and almost all animals actually. There is a very good reason for the standard .Cpt.Max von stephanitz the father of the breed had very specific reasoning for creating the gsd. There is a reason they have been one of the greatest most popular breeds in history. Its not because they have gotten bigger. Can you explain what you mean by people who look at these standard are missing something? What is it that we are missing?


Sure, I'm not saying bigger is better but that the dog getting bigger makes sense. You say some animals have gotten smaller, well maybe so. I said humans and domestic animals. Wild animals are at the mercy of nature. Humans cannot control what they eat or where they live. When I said what people are missing is the fact that those standards were first come up with over 100 yrs ago. Since then we have come to understand much more on what a dog or any other domestic animal requires health wise. If you feed an animal or person for that matter the optimum nutrition and provide the best enviornment and health care for that animal it will grow to its fullest potential. Since 1900 we've learned a lot, so good or bad it only makes sense that the german shepherd has gotten larger.


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## codmaster

rarerare37 said:


> Sure, I'm not saying bigger is better but that the dog getting bigger makes sense. You say some animals have gotten smaller, well maybe so. I said humans and domestic animals. Wild animals are at the mercy of nature. Humans cannot control what they eat or where they live. When I said what people are missing is the fact that those standards were first come up with over 100 yrs ago. Since then we have come to understand much more on what a dog or any other domestic animal requires health wise. If you feed an animal or person for that matter the optimum nutrition and provide the best enviornment and health care for that animal it will grow to its fullest potential. Since 1900 we've learned a lot, so good or bad it only makes sense that the german shepherd has gotten larger.


 
Have you heard of "Selective Breeding" - i.e. selecting the breeding partners at least partly for the bigger sized ones. 

That is a MAJOR factor in the many over size GSD's that we see in the world today!

Genetics play a major role in the size an animal reachs - don't you agree.

If you feed a Chi all the best food in the world, do you think it will get to be 30" high at the shoulder? Of course not - would it get a little bit bigger than a litter mate who is not fed enough - also of course; but the genes are the ultimate decider on how big the dog will reach!


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## rarerare37

codmaster said:


> Have you heard of "Selective Breeding" - i.e. selecting the breeding partners at least partly for the bigger sized ones.
> 
> That is a MAJOR factor in the many over size GSD's that we see in the world today!
> 
> Genetics play a major role in the size an animal reachs - don't you agree.
> 
> If you feed a Chi all the best food in the world, do you think it will get to be 30" high at the shoulder? Of course not - would it get a little bit bigger than a litter mate who is not fed enough - also of course; but the genes are the ultimate decider on how big the dog will reach!


Cod you are 100% correct. I never said people can't also play a part by breeding larger dogs to larger dogs. Breeders of shepherds come into play all the time. Many Europeans consider North American shepherds almost a different breed due to what has been bred here. They don't really like North American dogs. But maybe a better way of saying this is if Stephanitz had had access to our dog foods and health care today, the dogs he bred would have slowly gotten bigger. Thats all.


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## codmaster

rarerare37 said:


> Cod you are 100% correct. I never said people can't also play a part by breeding larger dogs to larger dogs. Breeders of shepherds come into play all the time. Many Europeans consider North American shepherds almost a different breed due to what has been bred here. They don't really like North American dogs. But maybe a better way of saying this is if Stephanitz had had access to our dog foods and health care today, the dogs he bred would have slowly gotten bigger. Thats all.


 
Yea, don't they ever consider US GSD's to be different. And a lot of Americans do as well. 

I have one of two US show dog GSD's in my ScH club (and the other one is a long coat so looksd very different anyway). When you see my male GSD from a top US show kennel next to the ones from German parents - WOW! They really do look different - body shape and esp. the head of the males. 

BTW, my dog is NOT one of the overly extreme anulated dogs you often see in the ring today. And the German lineage dogs are not the extreme roach backed dogs you see in German dogs.

But they are VERY different! (Mine is nicer - Neh! Heh! Heh!)


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## mharrisonjr26

Look at the size and shape of other breeds of dog. Alot have stayed true for well over 100 maybe even 1000 years. By the way the breed standard for the gsd has been revised a few times since Von stephanitz. Not saying you dont have points i just dont agree. I consider gsd's large breed they just dont look so large next to other large breeds.


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## rarerare37

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Look at the size and shape of other breeds of dog. Alot have stayed true for well over 100 maybe even 1000 years. By the way the breed standard for the gsd has been revised a few times since Von stephanitz. Not saying you dont have points i just dont agree. I consider gsd's large breed they just dont look so large next to other large breeds.


LOL, thats fine I would certainly not consider myself a dog breeding expert. I just always felt that there was an explanation for a certain degree of increased size. Now breeders are certainly the cause of the majority of increase. 130lb dogs are not due to improved nutrition. But 75lbs to 85lbs. That could be attributed to nutrition over 100 yrs. But thats just me and have never seen any research either way.


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## radulf

I want to share this: German shepherd dog from 1915

And please keep posting about those GSDs closer to the lower range of the standard (66 lb for males and 48.5 lb for females). I don’t want to believe I’m looking for something long gone.


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## Liesje

68lbs (weighed recently before a heartworm test)









I didn't dig that blog post. Too much reducing this breed down to something as exclusive as size. Getting a Malinois because you want a GSD in a smaller size? Um yeah right! WAY different temperament. Plus I know quite a few Mals and Dutches that are taller and heavier than both my male GSDs.


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## ladyfreckles

Mals and shepherds are two very different dogs, size aside. 

There is a lot of emphasis on size. Personally, I think it's too much emphasis. As long as a shepherd is in the breed standard size range I am okay with it. Of course I've seen odd ones out. My friend got a shepherd 3 years ago from a breeder with no large dogs (males were 70-80lbs) and her male ended up being 85-90lbs. You get what you get. The quality breeders who aren't trying to make the dogs huge are still out there. You just have to look for them, be willing to travel, etc.


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## rarerare37

Well I'll start out by saying that my family has purchased a GSD and is our first. Our previous 2 dogs were Great Pyrenees. Now I'll add that I personally could not care less about what the AKC or any other group says is the breed standard. What the AKC judges as a perfect GSD in a show arena is a poor excuse for a dog, in my opinion. Breeders care more for a certain look then a functional dog. Can someone tell me why a dog who fits perfectly into the standards and wins a show title yet is not capable of performing a GSD's job is better then a 90lb GSD who can? Size and weight should have NO factor on the quality of the dog. If the dog can do the job then its a quality dog, period. If both parents are GSD's then the offspring regardless of traits is too. Why can a coated GSD not compete in a show ring? It's a GSD. Oh it's a recessive trait. Well so is human blonde hair and blue eyes, do we exclude them from beauty contests? I find the AKC nothing but a political BS organization. Breeders should worry more about the abilities, drive and temperments of the GSD and a heck of a lot less on looks.


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## KZoppa

OriginalWacky said:


> Not that it makes a huge difference, but in my own mind the way I classify dogs is something along these lines:
> 
> Tiny = 10 lb and under
> Small = 11-25 lb
> Medium = 26-50 lb
> Large 51-90 lb
> Extra Large 91-120 lb
> Giant = 121 lb and over
> *(Additional categories -
> That's not a dog, it's a horse! = 180 lb and up Hahaha
> I have cats bigger than that! = 3 lb and under
> Hahaha)*


 
yeah this is how i see it as well. 

Shasta is 2 years old and about 68-70 lbs. I havent measured her height recently so i couldnt tell you that one.


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## bocron

Had Uma in yesterday for a check up and she weighed 59.8lbs which was great with me. My husband's male (Uma's half brother) weighed 73lbs at his last check up. To me both dogs are an ideal size to work and I wouldn't want any bigger. I also own a WGSL male who weighs 84lbs and he seems absolutely gigantic to me. Not a size I would want as the norm for a GSD, he is just too big and just doesn't portray the athleticism of the others. Although he is a total clown and I love him to death.


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## jmdjack

My female is about 23 1/2 inches tall and weighs a lean 76 - 78 pounds. Compared to our last gsd, a male we rescued as a pup who grew to be a very large dog (in excess of 27" and a lean 105 lbs) she seems small, but in reality she is large by the standards.


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## Whiteshepherds

rarerare37 said:


> Now I'll add that I personally could not care less about what the AKC or any other group says is the breed standard.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at least blame the right people. The AKC has nothing to do with setting the breed standard, that's done by the GSDCA.


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## codmaster

rarerare37 said:


> Well I'll start out by saying that my family has purchased a GSD and is our first. Our previous 2 dogs were Great Pyrenees. *Now I'll add that I personally could not care less about what the AKC or any other group says is the breed standard*. What the AKC judges as a perfect GSD in a show arena is a poor excuse for a dog, in my opinion. Breeders care more for a certain look then a functional dog. Can someone tell me why a dog who fits perfectly into the standards and wins a show title yet is not capable of performing a GSD's job is better then a 90lb GSD who can? Size and weight should have NO factor on the quality of the dog. If the dog can do the job then its a quality dog, period. If both parents are GSD's then the offspring regardless of traits is too. Why can a coated GSD not compete in a show ring? *(If you could just read the standard, you will, strangely enough, find out why!)* It's a GSD. Oh it's a recessive trait. Well so is human blonde hair and blue eyes, do we exclude them from beauty contests? I find the AKC nothing but a political BS organization. *(How about the SV - ever hear of them?)* Breeders should worry more about the abilities, drive and temperments of the GSD and a heck of a lot less on looks.


*BOTH BOTH BOTH are important - physical conformation is NOT a beauty contest. Ever hear of this - "Function follows Form!"). If not, look it up!*

Obviously you don't seem to know much about the GSD standard, or do you and it is just that you really actually know *more* than the folks who created the GSD standard.

You are aware of course that the (AKC and SV) GSD standard covers BOTH physical and mental characteristics (of course you do, right?)

BTW, how many of your dogs (ones that you bred!) have you titled in any performance venue? Just curious?


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## Xeph

Besides that, coats can be shown in AKC. It's a minor fault.

Mirada is a little over 22" and weighs 58 lbs, Strauss is 27" tall and weighs 87 lbs, Mahler is 17.5 weeks and weighs 43 lbs, Wesson is just shy of 8 months and weighs about 53 lbs


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## Catu

And now long stock coats can be shown too under SV, in their own category.


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## Smithie86

Liesje said:


> I think that many GSDs look larger than life. I've gotten so many comments on Nikon's size, head, and bone and then when people meet him in person they are surprised at how compact he is. Most people guess he weighs 80-90lbs and he weighs 70. For me this is ideal - a dog that does not have the appearance of being small or fine, but appears well-boned and masculine yet is not large or heavy. I'm really happy with how he's matured, both his overall appearance and his actual size. Pan I believe will end up over 75lbs since he is already as tall as Nikon and only 19 months. However I did intentionally ask for a smaller male and growing up he was usually 10-15lbs lighter than his litter brothers. I like the medium size for sports. I think it is safer for the dogs (especially flyball, since all the equipment is a fixed size, fixed height, there's no way to make accommodations for a larger dog like in agility where you can run lower jump heights and pace your dog slower). I also like that my dogs are easy to manage for me, physically. I took Nikon to get a dog massage at a recent flyball event and the lady had this look of dread on her face b/c she does the massage up on a grooming table. I said no problem and easily lifted Nikon on/off her table. Smaller = less to feed, easier loading in/out of vehicles, easy for me to lift and carry when I have to, more comfortable in normal sized crates. Pan is the fastest U-fli flyball German Shepherd in history. He's not what I consider small, but there's nothing excessive about him. He's lean, a bit finer boned (for a male), and doesn't have a huge bulky head. Everything about his body is....efficient. He's not the best or most impressive looking dog, but he is fast and runs clean and safe.


I think that people do overestimate weight. We keep our dogs, both retired and current competition dogs at a good, lean working weight. People that come to club for training are usually told that their dogs are a few lbs heavy..

Even a few lbs can have a impact on normal day to day life in addition to training. We start from the beginning with very lanky, young dogs. If you have a dog that is on the larger size, you have to condition the dog differently. Enzo was 86 at his fully muscled working weight when he was consistently competing. He just turned 10 and runs with his daughter (speed demon) and pushes to work.

Does not matter at local level or higher - so many people forget that conditioning is part of training. That is why you see dogs that are injured at 4-5 years and/or have problems later. Being proactive for quality of life is critical.


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## ladyfreckles

Oh man, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the words "he's going to be HUGE" or "he's going to be at least 120lbs!!!!"...

People drastically overestimate the weight and size of German Shepherds. At Petpalooza the owner of a labrador retriever was sitting there commenting on how huge Viking was going to be and how they went with labs because GSDs are just "way too large for them". Most German Shepherds I meet are smaller or the same size as labs. Not larger. There's a huge misconception.


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## RubyTuesday

Yeah, that's true.

At his one yr exam the vet tech was so surprised at Djibouti's weight that she made everyone guess what he weighed. It's been awhile, but I think 105' was the smallest. Even when she insisted "Guess again...Hint, he's not nearly as big as you think he is." the guesses increased rather than decreased while people looked baffled as though uncertain what trick she was pulling. The vet guessed 110' or 115'. He weighed 92. He's a stock coat but it's not an abundant coat & he's never had a ton of undercoat. They just guessed him much heavier than he is.

Yrs ago another vet told me she wouldn't lift Cochise b/c 75' was her limit & he weighed at least 90'. He actually put a few lbs on (he was bone thin) before he was weighed several months later at 52'. The tech apologized & said the scale must be broken. On a follow up visit to a different vet the tech weighed him, looked confused & weighed him again. She then shook her head & took him down the hall to another scale. She looked utterly baffled. I asked what he weighed. In an uncertain voice she told me, "I'm getting 52'...Both scales must be broken or something." LOL! My guy that had been professionally assessed as weighing _at least 90 lbs_ probaly weighed 48-50' at the time. Through the years vets & their techs continued to be amazed at how large Cochise looked & how little he weighed. He was simply all fur & attitude.


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## Debbieg

I just want to keep Benny in the best possible health and that means lean. He weighed 85 when he turned two and is 26 1/2 inches tall. Now at age 3 he is 90 but I can easily feel his ribs and he has a defined waist. He gets lots of exercise ( trying to herd a Borzoi in the park sees to that ) plus our 3 mile walks and training.

Often people with obviously over weight dogs tell me Benny is too thin but would be offended if I said their dogs were too fat. 

My last GSD, Eli was the same height as Benny but never got over 80, was also lean but not thin ( until the last month:teary

I think just like with people some have heavier bones, more muscle. What would be overweight for one is lean for another.


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## ladyfreckles

Debbieg said:


> I think just like with people some have heavier bones, more muscle. What would be overweight for one is lean for another.


Bingo. I am at my "prime" health wise when I am a size 2. At a size 6 my body fat percentage is borderline overweight (one more percent up and I would have been classified as obese in terms of body fat) and I was just not healthy (higher cholesterol etc). Other people I know would have to starve down and be really unhealthy if they wanted to be a size 2, and some people have hip bones and collar bones and ribs that show at a size 4-6. It's all based on the individual.


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## Liesje

I do believe there are points (high and low) at which the utilitarian aspect of the breed can't really be maintained. I don't see this as an absolute number, because it has to always be weighed (pun intended) in context with the other attributes of the dog. For example, I'd rather have a dog 5lbs heavier than my personal standard than a dog within my personal standard and having poor nerve. Given the sports and activities I do I would say size is pretty important to me because there is a point at which I feel a dog is too big to safely do what I do (regardless of whether he's skinny or fat or what weight/muscle mass is good for him), but it's also fairly easy to predict based on pedigree and evaluating the litter and previous progeny.


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## Doc

If you believe in the theory of standard distribution, then 50 per cent of the German shepherds will fall within 1 standard deviation of the norm. ( I would assume the norm for height is the number listed in the Standard?). The other 50 percent would be broken down as 25 percent below the normal distribution and 25 per cent above the normal distribution. (The Bell Curve Theory of Distribution)
The height distribution gives no correlation to any other characteristics other than height. To suggest that a German shepherd that is outside of the normal distribution is mere speculation.
As a side, research done at Flanders Field with Guide dogs indicated that dogs taller than the standard learned quicker. That correlation is documented and supported by data. I have seen no other research that shows that German shepherds outside of the standard are not as functional as those within the standard.


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## Xeph

Just for random input, people frequently overestimate how much Strauss weighs. The highest (and most laughable) answer I ever got was 115 lbs.

Strauss weighs 88-89 pounds.

Due to his having surgery, he got up to 96 lbs (had to rest at home, no exercise), and was still not fat. He was fat to ME, but you could still feel ribs and he had a waist.

In his prime, he weighed 85-87 lbs. At 8 years old, to weigh just a pound more? I'm not going to fret about that. But he's definitely not 115 lbs!


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## Liesje

I just go by whether the dog can safely perform the repetitive activities and whether or not I can safely assist my dog if he got injured. I expect him to stand by me and protect me so I won't offer him any less. My weird requirement is that if I can't carry my dog to safety then he's too big. Might be a perfectly fine dog for someone else or something else but that's my personal requirement, I've got to be able to lift and carry my dogs because sometimes we are in situations that could be dangerous and we're too far away for immediate help. Other people are going to have different numbers and requirements based on their uses for the dog. 

As far as research, I don't really need it because usually it's just common sense. No one wants to see a dog get hurt. I've seen a dog excused from an activity not because he wasn't trained correctly or lacked the drive but he was just plain too big/heavy and could not do it safely. In a lot of activities, certain factors (like height and width of jumps, size and materials of a box, angle of a contact obstacle, floor surface, etc) are always constant and you cannot adjust for a larger dog. In some of these activities I do believe there is a point at which a dog can be too big even if the dog is a great dog and well suited for other activities.


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## Doc

Lies, I understand your point. I just go back to the original purpose of creating a German shepherd and the tasks that were expected of them. I would contend that their is still no correlation of size to those tasks. 
If you are trying to put a German shepherd into sporting events that were created for fun and games, then your point can be well applied. Max created a standard set of tasks for his German shepherd to be tested. Passing was not dictated by size but rather ability. When he saw that a certain trait was lacking in his breed, he found a "champion" that would add that trait back into the dog. Again size wasn't the criteria but rather the mastery of a trait. Limited as it may have appeared, Max's original test was to challenge and master the qualities he designed for the German shepherd.
Today we put German shepherds into all kinds of sports, some that really don't showcase what a German shepherd is suppose to master. It is in these venues, that size plays more of a role - venues that were not created to test the innate ability of the German shepherd breed but rather a sport/entertainment venue that is more a test of training rather than skill, IMO.


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## Liesje

For a time I was seriously interested in getting involved with SAR but recently gave that up due mostly to my job and not having the ability to be on call as would be required. However at the time I was getting dogs I made sure to look for dogs that didn't have an excess of bone or coat or anything really, dogs that were not any larger than they needed to be (but not too fine) and dogs I could lift and assist as a partner when needed. I don't personally see SAR work as sports or entertainment. 

Watching the pre-war footage of GSDs I just can't see huge and/or heavy-boned dogs completing some of the tasks...a lot of the stuff they're doing our dogs no longer have to do but maybe they should...


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## Doc

The original SAR German shepherds were known as Swabian Service dogs. There were larger dogs that were very calm and methodical. These dogs were used to perform under high stress conditions and not run off chasing anything that moved. They were often seen dragging wounded army men to safety and bringing medics to the wounded. No one thought about having to carry them off the field so the larger dog wasn't a problem. Endurance was not a problem for the larger dogs because they were use to working all day as herders. From a historical perspective, saying a large dog can not perform SAR effectively is misleading.


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## LukasGSD

I have a feeling that even at 15 months old Jaxon's going to fit into the standard, he might get a bit bigger. He's a very lean 75. But out of standard in height. He's not big of bone either.


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## codmaster

Doc said:


> The original SAR German shepherds were known as Swabian Service dogs. There were larger dogs that were very calm and methodical. These dogs were used to perform under high stress conditions and not run off chasing anything that moved. They were often seen dragging wounded army men to safety and bringing medics to the wounded. No one thought about having to carry them off the field so the larger dog wasn't a problem. Endurance was not a problem for the larger dogs because they were use to working all day as herders. From a historical perspective, saying a large dog can not perform SAR effectively is misleading.


 
How big were these dogs? I would guess they weren't the 120-130lb monsters that a lot of current GSD breeders brag about in their ads!


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## cliffson1

They were the dogs primarily where the breed gets a lot of its bone and large size from, also their rock solid nerve and temperament. Also,the courage piece is very strong from the Swabian. I don't weigh in on the size issue in general because it is very low on the priorty list for me like color. My dog Chris might have been a little bigger than my ideal, but I loved him because he was perfect between the ears and his beauty was in his functionality. My current male, Taro, is a little smaller than my ideal, but I love him too cause his temperament and work ethic is off the charts also. Both dogs such pleasures to own, but size of them is really meaningless. They both are sound of mind and body and capable of doing what they are supposed to do.


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## Doc

cliffson1 said:


> They were the dogs primarily where the breed gets a lot of its bone and large size from, also their rock solid nerve and temperament. Also,the courage piece is very strong from the Swabian. I don't weigh in on the size issue in general because it is very low on the priorty list for me like color. My dog Chris might have been a little bigger than my ideal, but I loved him because he was perfect between the ears and his beauty was in his functionality. My current male, Taro, is a little smaller than my ideal, but I love him too cause his temperament and work ethic is off the charts also. Both dogs such pleasures to own, but size of them is really meaningless. They both are sound of mind and body and capable of doing what they are supposed to do.


:thumbup:
Cliff, I am going to paraphrase and give you credit for one of the best statements made about the German shepherd ...
"The size of the German shepherd is really meaningless as long as they are sound of mind and body and capable of doing what they are suppose to do."


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## Liesje

Doc said:


> The original SAR German shepherds were known as Swabian Service dogs. There were larger dogs that were very calm and methodical. These dogs were used to perform under high stress conditions and not run off chasing anything that moved. They were often seen dragging wounded army men to safety and bringing medics to the wounded. No one thought about having to carry them off the field so the larger dog wasn't a problem. Endurance was not a problem for the larger dogs because they were use to working all day as herders. From a historical perspective, saying a large dog can not perform SAR effectively is misleading.


I don't argue any of this but I'm not talking history or hypotheticals. These days there are probably a dozen different SAR disciplines and various groups are into various types of work and have preferences for their dogs. I'm speaking from the conversations I had with an actual SAR team. The type of work they do and train to do just doesn't require a 100+lb dog and is not practical with one of that size. They aren't dragging injured soldiers off the fields of battle and such. Perhaps SAR groups in other parts of the country have use for a very large dog. Just because the work and tasks have changed over the century does not make their work any less critical or noble. I try my best to get a dog that's going to succeed at the task at hand so everyone can work safely.


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## Doc

So don't put a German shepherd in a situation he isn't going to excel in. Forget his size, match the dog for the purpose. It's not the dogs fault if humans change the rules. If you need a smaller dog than get one with the structure and brains for the task.
Since history isn't important to some, then don't dare read Stephinitz's ideas on how to breed a German shepherd for SAR. 
Unfortunately, from what the SAR old timers tell me SAR isn't what it use to be. All the registration and affiliation restricts many outstanding people and dogs.


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## Liesje

A regular size GSD (50-90lbs) is perfectly fine. Why look at other breeds when the vast majority of GSDs are at least size-wise perfectly well suited for the task? Labs do really well and I like them OK but I prefer the more aloof and naturally protective nature of GSDs. Also people think GSDs are getting high strung but I've seen way too many high strung labs. I prefer the overall structure of the GSD, especially the coat and the ability to work in all terrain and all types of weather. Too many other breeds have breathing problems or don't like heat or don't like cold or this or that. GSDs seem virtually unaffected by climate and terrain because of how they are built, not due to an overabundance of drive (which I don't like). Even as pets I prefer these qualities in my dogs. I also like a dog with a tail and I like dogs with pointy ears but not ones that have to be docked. For me the GSD is strong and agile without having an excess or lacking anything, a "pack and play" kind of breed.


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## Grizzley2011

How does he look to you. To me he looks rather small but, I think its because I've seen him @ 102LBS. He lost weight do to ear infection he refuse to eat. In this picture he 85lbs and gaining weigh probably about 94 lbs no matter how hard you work him.


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