# Dealing with a Breeder



## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

Last fall, we made a deposit on the K litter from a breeder who shall remain nameless. The litter was to be bred last Nov/Dec, depending on when the bitch went into heat, and was, in fact, bred in early December.

We've now learned that the bitch experienced a false pregnancy. The breeder is sort of pressuring us to take a puppy from another litter, the H litter, that will be born just slightly later than the K litter would have been.

One of the reasons we chose the K litter was because it was expected to be a full litter of coated sables. The H litter will be mixed black and red and sables, as well as mixed stock coats and long coats. I'm sure the H litter will be a litter full of wonderful puppies, but, honestly, I'm just not interested in a stock coat I don't want to take the chance that I would be "stuck" with a puppy that I wasn't 100% thrilled with.

The other reason we chose the K litter was because the timing was just exactly right for us. The breeder is going to repeat this pairing, depending on when the bitch goes into heat, but the puppies would likely not be ready to go home until fall. Unless you've lived in Western Washington, you can't imagine the absolute dread I have of taking delivery of a tiny puppy, who will need to be escorted outside many, many times a day, just as the rain and mud season is getting underway. So I need a spring puppy.

So here's my question, and I hope some of you breeders will chine in on this, would it be wrong of me to expect the breeder to refund our deposit?


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

Im not a breeder - I am a business man. It is not wrong for you to expect your deposit back, and I expect they will return it without any drama, unless they just plain dont have it, in which case they are liars and cannot be trusted at all. If thats the case, I would just walk away and bad mouth them forever.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

I assume you knew ahead of time that the deposit was non-refundable? Most breeders are very upfront about this. What was the deposit agreement you had with this particular breeder?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Yes, it was non-refundable, and I would never expect it back if we just changed our minds about wanting a puppy.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

From agreements i've read from other breeders, if the deposit you placed for a certain litter didnt result in a litter, a lot of breeders would either allow the deposit for another breeding or refund if your original deposit was placed and a false pregnancy resulted from the breeding and you're not interested in a different litter. I guess it really depends on the breeder. I think i would ask for my deposit back given the circumstances, especially if i wasnt interested in any of the other litters. It doesnt hurt to at least ask given the breeding didnt produce and the next breeding may or may not take and the time you would get the puppy doesnt work well with your schedule.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm rather blown away that you are selecting for coat type & color and that that is a deal breaker. Nonetheless, read your contract carefully. It sound like if you were very specific on which breeding you wanted for whatever reasons and that is reflected in the contract, you should get your money back.


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## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

In a perfect world, I believe you should get your deposit back. You didn't back out, it's not your fault that the bitch had a false pregnancy. You wanted a puppy from that particular litter, I believe it should be your choice if you wanted to roll to another litter or get your deposit back. That's just my opinion...


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

(I am not a breeder but here is my opinion)

Would the breeder be a bad person to uphold their contract? No

You can call the breeder and try to show them your side of the story, but if they say no, this doesn't make them mean. They have to make some money to pay for all the dog food, C-section emergencies, etc. If they make an exception for you, its kinda hard to deny other people's exceptions, isn't it?

If you don't end up getting the money back, either get the H litter pup or wait until the spring. If the breeder decides to uphold the contract, yell and scream or vent to your hubby or family, but don't be mean to the breeder. You are stuck with them  You will want all the advice you can get from them once you get the puppy 

I am sorry you are in this predicament. Unfortunately, this happens with dogs. I would be upset if I were in your position too. However, it is better to get a dog with a different color than you wanted instead of a dog from a backyard breeder that is aggressive. That is one positive side!

Once you sign a contract, no matter what excuse you have, you are kind of stuck unless the person upholding it gives you a break.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Had a similar experience with a breeder here in Texas. Deposit on litter A; litter A was a false pregnancy. Deposit moved to litter B, breeding did not take. Deposit moved to litter C, no pregnancy. Deposit moved to litter D, no males were born. I asked for my deposit back since litter E was not even conceived yet. Breeder informed me deposits are non-refundable. I got into an argument with breeder and received only $250 of my $500 deposit back. I ended up getting Kopper from another breeder. Live and learn.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Idea!!

Next time (if you get a different breeder, or another puppy in the future), if you only want a specific litter, see if the breeder will put that in the contract. (Ex: If this litter does not take and there is not another preapproved backup litter by the buyer, buyer gets a refund)

I don't know ifa breeder would actually do that though, unless you were looking for a specific dog to do shtz. or police work


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Unless it is the stated policy of the breeder that all deposits are non refundable, and must be transferred to another litter in the event of chosen litter not producing what the buyer wants, it should be refundable. If you made your criteria specific, you should not have to take a pup you do not want....but the other litter may have what you want....

How does H come AFTER K??? what happens to I and J???? Just curious

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> You can call the breeder and try to show them your side of the story, but if they say no, this doesn't make them mean. They have to make some money to pay for all the dog food, C-section emergencies, etc. If they make an exception for you, its kinda hard to deny other people's exceptions, isn't it?


Seriously? The litter never happened. The breeder did not uphold his bargain. It's not the buyers fault that the breeder has expenses. The buyer wants a specific puppy, if the litter doesn't happen, I would expect my money back without being pressured into taking a puppy from a breeding that I am not interested in.

Even if the deposit usually is not refundable, just out of honesty they should re-fund it, if the litter didn't happen. The buyer did not change his mind or step out of the contract.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Yeah they are usually up front about the non-refundable deposit so you will have to come up with an agreement with the breeder no harm in asking. I hate the idea of the non-refundable deposit but I understand why they do it. 

My plan next time I deal with a breeder who has a non-refundable deposit is to make a previous agreement if I know for whatever reason that I would not be happy being transferred to another litter and give them my reasons why up front.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too bad breeders take deposits before the whelp...problem solved unless the male female ratio was a problem. 
The breeder I bought Karlo from said they'd refund if that was the case(I wanted a male) because it wasn't worth the hassle to hold my money for another breeding. 
They are responsible /reputable. 
If the potential purchaser was being extremely picky about certain coat, color or whatever on the already born litter, then they'd have every right to keep the deposit.

Screening potential buyers is a good way to weed out problems before they ever can manifest.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> Unless it is the stated policy of the breeder that all deposits are non refundable, and must be transferred to another litter in the event of chosen litter not producing what the buyer wants, it should be refundable. If you made your criteria specific, you should not have to take a pup you do not want....but the other litter may have what you want....
> 
> * How does H come AFTER K??? what happens to I and J???? Just curious*
> 
> Lee


That I'd be interested in as well.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I saw that too, maybe they go backwards in the alphabet once they get to Z?


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Mrs. K, I wasn't posting what I would do if I were a breeder. I was posting what the breeder had the right to do in the event that a contract was signed that said the deposit was non-refundable. I never said this was honest or fair. Many people aren't....the OP should be prepared for this.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

Your contract may say your deposit is non refundable, but that doesnt matter when the breeder cannot live up to his/her side of the agreement. Delivery of the agreed upon dog was to take place in the spring and now its not going to take place untill fall ? Are you kidding ? That is not what you agreed upon. As far as them leaning on you to accept a different dog with different colors, well they have a name for that, its called "bait and switch", and its in clear violation of consumer protection laws basically in every state.

You have nothing to worry about and its virtually certain that you are going to get your money back in the event you ask for it.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Guys she's just asking for opinions and reasonable expectations given the circumstances. Not anything regarding how the litter letters are arranged. 

Paula put a deposit on THIS litter for several reasons. She already has a good idea of what to expect temperament wise because the pup WOULD HAVE BEEN a full blood brother of her Shasta. She's been pleased with Shasta and prefers the coated sables. Why is it so hard to understand that she wants what she wants? 

I want a black sable male on the larger side of the standard who will have the potential to work in whatever venue i am interested in trying but my primary goal is a black sable male to be family companion as well as my demo dog for classes. I want what I want. I've settled before. We're allowed to want the full package we desire and do what we can to get that! 

Now should she or shouldnt she be able to reasonably ask/expect the breeder to be honest and refund her deposit since the desired litter didnt take this time around?


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Selection criteria aside, I would think that if this were a reputable breeder, they would return the deposit. If I am putting down a deposit, it is because I'd like a pup from a specific breeding and what those 2 dogs bring to the table or have the potential to produce. If the breeding doesn't take, and I am not interested in other pairings, I don't think that I should have to eat the deposit...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe she shouldn't have put a deposit down on a non existent litter....expensive lesson learned. I feel bad for Paula, and hope the breeder will do right by her, especially if she is a repeat buyer.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

But isn't that a usual practice over here, to put a deposit down to reserve a puppy?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Well I certainly didn't think, based on what I've seen here, that it was all that unusual to place a deposit on a future litter.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

with many breeders - esp those who are "professionals" - ie make a living breeding pups - deposits are the norm and it is first come, first served....

Many breeders do not take deposits until the pups are born - I don't - lol, when I did a few times, I did not get pups, so I don't want anything until the pups are on the ground.....it is no different than paying a stud fee and getting stiffed when the litter does not happen - you just gave the owner a $800 gift....

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe, I wouldn't do it....I'd wait til they were on the ground first. Even then, a responsible breeder wouldn't guarantee a pup if it wasn't a good match(regardless of first come/first serve or "pick of the litter"~that should be the breeder's decision on who gets which pup).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't take a deposit until the pup is around 5 weeks of age . I will reserve a pup - wait and see if the character and drives are suitable -- 
The OP wants a coated sable and says that there could be coated sable in the following litter from which the breeder is moving the deposit to . So what is wrong with that then. They are trying to accommodate the buyer.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I didn't see anything in the posts about what exactly was in your contract - did it say anything about what type of puppy you wanted or mention the exact litter?

I would certainly try explaining to the breeder - doesn't seem like you really have a contract or perhaps that they breached by not having the puppy you contracted for (if it was described in the contract). if the amount is big enough you might even consult with a lawyer (if the breeder won't budge). And contact your local GSD club and the better Business Bureau and maybe even the Consumer person at your local TV stations (assuming the breeder is giving you a hard time of course).

Good luck! very frustrating!!!!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I don't take a deposit until the pup is around 5 weeks of age . I will reserve a pup - wait and see if the character and drives are suitable --
> The OP wants a coated sable and says that there could be coated sable in the following litter from which the breeder is moving the deposit to . So what is wrong with that then. They are trying to accommodate the buyer.


If I wanted a specific line, I wouldn't want a puppy from another litter but rather my deposit back and keep looking


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Codmaster, you deduced correctly. There is no written contract, which in hind sight was probably not the best way to go about things. The amount is big enough that I'd be sad to forfeit it, but not so big that I would consult a lawyer or raise a public stink about it. At this point, I have no particular reason to think that the breeder would refuse a refund. Also not 100% sure we'll ask for one. My husband isn't as particular about what the dog will look like as I am.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I do hope you get your deposit back, you certainly should and I don't feel that you should settle for a litter you had no interest in. That other litter may or may not have what you are looking for, would be a half sibling to Shasta if I am right. I definitely like the pairing of the litter you were waiting on much better than the one you are being moved to. A friend of mine just got a female puppy from one of the more recent litters. I would be kicking up a fuss myself if I were in your shoes because in my opinion the two litters don't compare that much - the one you originally wanted is superior and that breeding has been done before with good progeny to show for it. The other is a first breeding, at least I think so - which for you is more of an unknown. 

Truly hope you are able to get your deposit back and I don't see anything wrong with wanting a puppy that looks a certain way - I am always going to be drawn to longhairs myself and sometimes I like to be choosy about color. No big deal in my opinion - you should get what you want - it's going to be your new family member after all!


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

paulag1955 said:


> Codmaster, you deduced correctly. There is no written contract, which in hind sight was probably not the best way to go about things. The amount is big enough that I'd be sad to forfeit it, but not so big that I would consult a lawyer or raise a public stink about it. At this point, I have no particular reason to think that the breeder would refuse a refund. Also not 100% sure we'll ask for one. My husband isn't as particular about what the dog will look like as I am.


 
Ive been through this type of crap so many times that I cant even count. 
*Should you decide to be agressive about getting your deposit back -* 
If after requesting the return of the deposit the breeder denies, then a letter should be sent to the breeder (return reciept requested) demanding the deposit back. If that fails then take a copy of your demand letter, a copy of your return reciept proving delivery, and write a summary of the events that have occured through present day, and file a formal complaint (just google it) with your states attorney generals office (because its free). They will screw around for a few weeks, then they will demand a response from the breeder, depending on what the breeder says and what the agreement was, they will attempt to get the parties to settle and if they cant, its entirely possible the atty generals office will sue the breeder for violation of consumer protection laws (provided that has actually happened, and it sure sounds like it). In the event an investigation reveals a pattern of deceptive behaviour on the part of the breeder, then look out because a cease and desist order may very well be the next thing that happens, putting the breeder out of business. Should they continue operations then the principals could face criminal charges.
Somtimes when Im really ticked off at a crooked person, I actually fill out the atty generals complaint forms and go talk to the jackwagon one last time, and I show him the prepared complaint. That usually is where everything stops, and if it dosent, then follow through and file it.
The day the breeder recieves the notice from the atty general, he/she is going to piss his pants, and then beg to settle the situation. 
I dont know how much your deposit is, but I only follow the above protocol for the small potatos stuff when its not worth retaining your own legal counsel.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe, I wouldn't do it....I'd wait til they were on the ground first. Even then, a responsible breeder wouldn't guarantee a pup if it wasn't a good match(regardless of first come/first serve or "pick of the litter"~that should be the breeder's decision on who gets which pup).


Guess who it depends on whom you are buying from. If the breeder is well known, or the breeding is anticipated, then it is VERY common to put a deposit down as soon as you know you want something from that breeder or breeding. The last pup I bought I sent the deposit a good month before the breeding ever took place. In a previous breeding with the female I was looking to get a pup from, I was 5th in line and there were 6 pups born, BUT only one female and I was second in line for a girl so no pup for me. She did refund my deposit since I had in my contract that I wanted a pup from that breeding only. If I didn't have that stated specifically in my contract then I would completely expect my deposit to be moved to the next litter available. When the breeder decided to breed the female again the following year, she called me to give me a heads up. This time I was first in line and of course sent in the deposit right away. If I would have waited for pups to be on the ground I would not have gotten a pup since there were already 6 deposits by the time they were born.
If you don't check the contract contains stipulations for your specifications, then the contract goes by the breeder's standard practice. If you know you don't want a pup from other dogs within that breeder's program then you need to *clarify that on the front end* and modify the contract accordingly. If I agree to anything saying non-refundable, then I make sure the amount is something I can afford to lose. Caveat Emptor.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

DayTrader, where were you when I lost half my deposit last year?


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

See...I can understand why she doesn't want a different puppy...I seriously wish I had gotten my money back when I bought my Savannah cat. I had wanted a male, had him picked out, named, all that jazz, but he ended up dying from a fall...She gave me a slightly older female for a discounted price....and I wish I would have waited for a male. (me and female animals just don't click for some reason...)I ended up rehoming her with a friend because she kept peeing on my bed/behind the bathroom door for no reason (had her checked out by the vet, talked to the breeder, etc) [btw, she's doing great with the friend...no accidents and she is a happy little camper!]

anyyyyyywho, I would try and get your money back...i think a good breeder understands why...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

DayTrader, I'm pretty sure most of what you are saying applies to those with a business license. 
Since there is no actual contract, we have no idea what the OP actually agreed to. Maybe it's stated clearly on the website, maybe not. But since none of us have seen what the breeder's policy it then it is all just guessing anyway.(The OP very correctly did not put the info in the post)
Did the buyer specify that she would ONLY take a long coated sable puppy? Did the breeder agree to that parameter? Then that is one thing, if the buyer sent a non-refundable deposit stating they wanted a puppy from that kennel then that's a different matter altogether.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

bocron said:


> *Guess who it depends on whom you are buying from*. If the breeder is well known, or the breeding is anticipated, then it is VERY common to put a deposit down as soon as you know you want something from that breeder or breeding. The last pup I bought I sent the deposit a good month before the breeding ever took place. In a previous breeding with the female I was looking to get a pup from, I was 5th in line and there were 6 pups born, BUT only one female and I was second in line for a girl so no pup for me. She did refund my deposit since I had in my contract that I wanted a pup from that breeding only. If I didn't have that *stated specifically in my contract* then I would completely expect my deposit to be moved to the next litter available. When the breeder decided to breed the female again the following year,* she called me to give me a heads up*. This time I was first in line and of course sent in the deposit right away. If I would have waited for pups to be on the ground I would not have gotten a pup since there were already 6 deposits by the time they were born.
> If you don't check the contract contains stipulations for your specifications, then the contract goes by the breeder's standard practice. If you know you don't want a pup from other dogs within that breeder's program then you need to *clarify that on the front end* and modify the contract accordingly. If I agree to anything saying non-refundable, then I make sure the amount is something I can afford to lose. Caveat Emptor.


Best thing to do is* communicate* with the breeder! So you are both on the same page. I would hope most do a reserve list, then do a deposit after they've screened thoroughly to protect their pups and themselves before accepting a deposit. Though I know many breeders aren't that selective, neither are the buyers.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

That is why we have people state on the check what they are looking for on the deposit.

Very specific.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

since the H litter is expected to have stock coats
and long coats why don't you wait and take a pup from that litter?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Paula, Shasta is beautiful and just a wonderful dog in general so I completely understand why you would want a full blooded sibling of hers. I know how eagerly you were anticipating a new puppy from that potential litter and sympathize with your disappointment. I think the breeder should be more than happy to return your deposit to you if you request it. Best wishes with whatever you decide to do.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

What was the agreement on the deposit?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

As I said, there's nothing in writing at this point, but the K litter was going to be a full litter of coated sables. So I think a rational person could deduce that that's what we were looking for.

DoggieDad, if the litter does actually produce a male, coated sable, I'd be perfectly happy to take a pup from that litter. There just is no guarantee at this point that it will.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

bocron said:


> DayTrader, I'm pretty sure most of what you are saying applies to those with a business license.
> Since there is no actual contract, we have no idea what the OP actually agreed to. Maybe it's stated clearly on the website, maybe not. But since none of us have seen what the breeder's policy it then it is all just guessing anyway.(The OP very correctly did not put the info in the post)
> Did the buyer specify that she would ONLY take a long coated sable puppy? Did the breeder agree to that parameter? Then that is one thing, if the buyer sent a non-refundable deposit stating they wanted a puppy from that kennel then that's a different matter altogether.


 
The action i described can be used to resolve this type of issue with *any* incorporated business or sole proprietor. Liscenses have nothing to do with it. You are sort of correct in thinking that if you are a business entity required to have a liscense of some sort, then usually things are substantially worse should somone have a ligitimate complaint.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

PatternDayTrader said:


> The action i described can be used to resolve this type of issue with *any* incorporated business or sole proprietor.


So the breeder would have to be incorporated? Pretty unlikely.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

bocron said:


> So the breeder would have to be incorporated? Pretty unlikely.


Or a sole proprietor - which is the technical name for a person doing business in their own name.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

But, what was the agreement? A deposit or a deposit on a specific litter and specific type of puppy?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

PatternDayTrader said:


> Or a sole proprietor - which is the technical name for a person doing business in their own name.


Doesn't that have to be registered with the Secretary of State (for your state) just like being incorporated? In most states, breeders aren't required to register with the state unless they produce a certain number of animals per year (a pretty high number, like 100 puppies or something). 

Personally I think the OP should talk with the breeder and see where they stand before dragging the attorney general into it .


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

bocron said:


> Doesn't that have to be registered with the Secretary of State (for your state) just like being incorporated? In most states, breeders aren't required to register with the state unless they produce a certain number of animals per year (a pretty high number, like 100 puppies or something).
> 
> Personally I think the OP should talk with the breeder and see where they stand before dragging the attorney general into it .


 
Your thinking of a DBA - which means "doing business as" which does have to be registered or recorded usually with the county within which the business resides. The process outlined in my previous post will get the job done in that situation as well. 
Your right about leaving the atty gen out of it untill all else fails.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

There is also small claims court.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would say no, actually. If they are allowing you to apply the deposit to a different litter, or to wait until they repeat the breeding, then I think that is fair. The problem is we are dealing with nature, and not every breeding takes. 

Now you can say, that the breeder is not out anything, give the money back. Well, true, maybe. No matter what breeders do, they are never in the right. The breeders that chimed in here, do not accept deposits until pups are on the ground, and neither do I. But, there are others who say you should not breed until you have x-number of homes for the puppies. Having x-number of people say "yeah, I want one" does not equal x-number of homes. Unless they shell out cash, they are not committed. Sorry. People back out even after they shell out cash, and pups are on the ground, and they STILL want their deposit back, and STILL there are people on these forums who will say that a reputable breeder should refund the money.

But whatever. If the breeder waited for x-number of deposits before deciding to breed that bitch to that dog, she may have used the deposits for the stud fee. If the stud fee was $1,000, the stud owner does not refund it because the breeding was missed. But they generally offer to provide the service when the bitch comes back in if no litter resulted. So the bitch owner is out money for the stud fee.

If you were set on certain blood lines, or certain qualifications, titles, hip/elbow certificates, and the one litter is clearly superior to the other, I can understand waiting for the bitch/dog combo that you want. If you need a spring puppy, and you are ok with this other litter, go with it. Color should be the last consideration, coat type, pretty down there on the list. But whatever. 

It is possible that the breeder might not want to deal with you, in which case she may refund the deposit. But with a oral agreement and $500, I don't know, I think both parties should have their hands smacked.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

All other things being equal (good breeder, good dogs, etc.) I could see wanting a certain coat type/color.
If you were choosing a bad breeder with a desirable coat color and type, over a good breeder whose dog's weren't the "right" color for you, _that _would be a problem.

Same litter you wanted, and it's a matter of spring vs. fall and the right litter, I might say no to the refund though. Get some piddle pads and an x-pen


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

WOW...I can't believe that such a little question has resulted in answers such as small claims court, poor ethics and law suits...really??.....OMG.
*This is why breeders usually run from forums.*

Paula....talk to the breeder first, before you get upset about anything.
Contract or not.....the breeder may just refund your deposit based on the simple reason that the litter did not take and you are not interested in another litter.
*There is no reason that you should feel wrong for wanting a specific sex, color or coat type.....contrary to what many say.*
If he/she does not refund....then you will need to make the decision of getting a puppy from a different litter or losing your deposit......that is actually the only out come...if it was a *non refundable deposit.*

Many breeders (including myself) do not take deposits on puppies that have not been born yet....especially because incidents like this can happen, and the fact that we may not have the "specific" type of puppy that the buyer is needing or looking for....which includes sex, color or coat type...along with temperament & drives.

I wish you the best in getting your deposit back.....contact your breeder first.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Robin, thanks. No worries, I don't feel bad at all for wanting a dog that I love the looks of. Also, I would never pursue any kind of legal action against our breeder. She is Shasta's breeder, after all, and I'd like to maintain a good relationship. Of course we'll talk to her if we decide we don't want a puppy from the H litter or to wait for the fall litter.

I'm so sad about this litter not taking I almost feel like crying, but I'm not upset in the sense of being mad at the breeder at all. These things happen, but I foolishly didn't expect it to happen to this litter. I don't believe it's ever happened before with this bitch.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> If he/she does not refund....then you will need to make the decision of getting a puppy from a different litter or losing your deposit......that is actually the only out come...if it was a *non refundable deposit.*


For everyones sake, Im going to let this go after this post; before I do, I am going to leave you with this thought - Do you think if I put money down and order a new car and the dealer cant deliver, would I get my money back ? The answer is of course I would. Would i still get my money back if I was offered another car that was different while being equal ? The answer is of course I would. So if your still thinking that a non refundable deposit is still non refundable when the vendor is in default...Well all I can say is you better hope the vendee is more foolish than me.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

A car is not a living creature. I don't see how you can compare the buying and manufacturing of a car to the breeding and selling of a litter.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

Clyde said:


> A car is not a living creature. I don't see how you can compare the buying and manufacturing of a car to the breeding and selling of a litter.


 
They are both considered personal property. The analogy inst perfect* - *the point is the vendor is the party in default. 
There now thats my last post.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I love you Robin, but I disagree with you in this circumstance. And it has nothing to do with the ethics of the breeder or anything like that. It's just the consumer rights and business laws I've been drilled with since I was a wee lass.

I agree fully with PatternDayTrader. If I wanted this particular breeding for a particular reason and communicated it to my breeder, should the breeding not take, then the conditions to my sale and deposit were not fulfilled. In Canadian law intention is of great importance, and intention can be unwritten. I feel the intention of the non-refundable deposit is to ensure that if the puppies were born, the breeders don't get screwed from buyers backing out. I think many will agree with me that the non-refundable deposit isn't there to LOCK a buyer to a breeder for better or for worse even if the litters to come are not what the buyer wanted.

But what I am saying is the WORST it could come to and the last actions Paula CAN take if she doesn't come to an agreeable solution with her breeder. The best situation would be if her breeder and her came to a good alternative together.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

*Well...I certainly would hope that you read the contract before signing then.....*

MANY contracts state that IF the breeding does not produce a litter, certain sex etc/etc...then the deposit is moved to another litter...*simple as that.*
**You sign.....you agree.**
NON refundable is simply NON refundable....UNLESS otherwise stated.
Car, clothing, home animal......whatever...
IF a contract (any contract).. has stipulations regarding the deposit...and it is stated as NON refundable.....BUYER LOSES.....period.

_Getting upset, threatening or even down right nasty...does not change a thing._

*On the bright side....MOST breeders would refund a deposit from a litter that was not conceived.
ALWAYS read, understand & question your contract BEFORE you sign....

*personally....I think Paula should be refunded if a puppy does not result in a breeding that she chose.....but that's me.*


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> *Well...I certainly would hope that you read the contract before signing then.....*
> 
> MANY contracts state that IF the breeding does not produce a litter, certain sex etc/etc...then the deposit is moved to another litter...*simple as that.*
> **You sign.....you agree.**
> ...


I agree with you in this circumstance. If there was a signed contract stating that the refund was unrefundable in all circumstances, then Paula would lose out. But Paula said she had no contract with her breeder yet, so the situation is a bit ambiguous. 

When I was writing my last post to Paula, I was thinking of the SEVERAL times you told me that I could change my mind before I got Amaretto, whether that be from her to another puppy or from you to another breeder. Which is why I don't think it'll come to what PatternDayTrader wrote about. 

But options are valuable I guess.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Marshies....you should reread my post.....
I do not DISAGREE if a breeding does not produce a puppy that the buyer wants...that the deposit be kept.....actually, I believe it should be refunded.
HOWEVER;.....there are contracts that have stipulations (for such things) and I am saying BEFORE you sign....you must READ.
IF those stipulations are included within the contract...and the buyer AGREES and SIGNS it......there is no recourse...and no reason to be upset.

*I cannot believe the responding of law suits, bad ethics and complaints that immediately follow a simple question like this.
Some things are simple and black & white.
Same as if a dog is not everything the buyer wanted, or a health issue arises......*burn the breeder at the stake mentality*.....good God.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Marshies....you should reread my post.....
> I do not DISAGREE if a breeding does not produce a puppy that the buyer wants...that the deposit be kept.....actually, I believe it should be refunded.
> HOWEVER;.....there are contracts that have stipulations (for such things) and I am saying BEFORE you sign....you must READ.
> IF those stipulations are included within the contract...and the buyer AGREES and SIGNS it......there is no recourse...and no reason to be upset.
> ...


Robin, we're saying the same things, but just getting confused with each other's caplocks!

Contract with deposit clause = buyer loses out. No contract = refund. 

I know you would refund because with Amaretto, you gave me so many chance to change my mind. Which is why I think Paula's breeder would be the same.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Marshies....
How long did I refuse to take a deposit from you?.....
I only agreed when you absolutely decided that you really wanted her....and I would have to keep her for over a month till you were physically better.....and ONLY because I would not be able (during that time) to accept another home/buyer for her. I also would not accept total payment until she was almost ready to go home.

Because of reasons like included in this thread.....we do not accept or want deposits until puppies are born and doing well.
*Actually....in the past, we accepted or required very few deposits on puppies.....only over the past couple of years have we started to require them.
Having bad checks written on pick-up day or NSF after puppies were shipped.....changed our policy.

Paula must have a good relationship with her breeder, she already has a beautiful dog from them....I'm sure she will be satisfied.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> At this point, I have no particular reason to think that the breeder would refuse a refund. Also not 100% sure we'll ask for one. My husband isn't as particular about what the dog will look like as I am.


Can't hurt to ask, all she can do is say no. Might as well give her a call and find out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I can't believe this situation brought up bad business practices and other such legalese. 
This is not manufacture of some uniform commodity. 

The breeder in good faith took a female to a stud (outside or own - does not matter) expected a litter . On that expectation took deposits . As a breeder I would not take a deposit that soon. As a buyer I would not offer a deposit until I was assured the pups had passed all critical periods and pups were doing well . Of course with my very limited litters , potential owners become virtual house guests till the pups actually leave -- so I have the opportunity to get to know them, and they the pups . Their involvement and interest is as good as a deposit. So usually payment in full at the time the pup has been vetted and ready to go. 

The breeder did nothing deceptive . No litter came of the breeding . They have nothing to offer from that combination.

They have gone so far as to keep the deposit and apply it to a REPEAT breeding , which may or may not , produce pups in the fall. That the timing isn't ideal for the buyer is not the breeders fault . What can they do . 
They have also offered to apply the deposit to the litter imminently due , but what happens if some event results in no pups from that litter either.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think this can be an easy fix

It sounds like you got no contract but the breeder said she would either 1. return your deposit or 2. transfer to another litter or 3. hold your deposit until the breeding was repeated.

I would ASK for my deposit back, and then ASK her to let you know when the repeat is done. Unless of course your not happy with the breeder in the first place.

Within that time, you can look around and see if you can find something else your interested in.

Pretty simple to me. Look for what you want, you don't have to settle for something you may not want


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Do you know how long until the next litter? I think you should wait, since you said you would be happy to take a sable male from the alternate litter. No need to make a fuss and make the relationship uncomfortable with breeder if they end up producing what you are hoping for in the next litter. If what you are hoping for doesn't happen with this litter, then I would ask about refunding the deposit.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

A dog is not like a car. If a dealership can't deliver the specific color car you wanted, who the heck would take them to small claims court? You would probably get laughed at. If the dealership said "Sorry but we don't currently have Black Hondas. You can take the blue Honda or you can wait 2 weeks for the black honda to come in." IF you had placed a NON refundable deposit, you would choose to get the blue or wait for the black. If you went to court, the judge would dismiss your case in 5 seconds, presuming you could even find a lawyer dumb enough to take your case.

I completely understand the buyer wants a specific color--but, regardless of if there is or isn't a contract, if the agreement was that the money was non-refundable, it is NON refundable.

What kind of person tries to sue a breeder that has two litters a year for a NON refundable deposit. Sounds *sue happy* to me. 

(None of this is in reference to the OP, just in reference to later comments)

I would hate to meet the people in real life that think it is perfectly fine to sue everyone because they don't want to follow the rules they agreed to.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> A dog is not like a car. If a dealership can't deliver the specific color car you wanted, who the heck would take them to small claims court? You would probably get laughed at. If the dealership said "Sorry but we don't currently have Black Hondas. You can take the blue Honda or you can wait 2 weeks for the black honda to come in." IF you had placed a NON refundable deposit, you would choose to get the blue or wait for the black. If you went to court, the judge would dismiss your case in 5 seconds, presuming you could even find a lawyer dumb enough to take your case.
> 
> I completely understand the buyer wants a specific color--but, regardless of if there is or isn't a contract, if the agreement was that the money was non-refundable, it is NON refundable.
> 
> ...


Like!!!


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## nomansland4404 (Jun 15, 2010)

Clyde said:


> I assume you knew ahead of time that the deposit was non-refundable? Most breeders are very upfront about this. What was the deposit agreement you had with this particular breeder?


What kind of trash breeder doesnt give a deposit back when THEY cant deliver the litter you put the deposit down for in the first place?!?! Your deposit should be given back no questions asked.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

nomansland4404 said:


> What kind of trash breeder doesnt give a deposit back when THEY cant deliver the litter you put the deposit down for in the first place?!?! Your deposit should be given back no questions asked.


If you don't like how a particular breeder handles deposits then don't buy from that breeder. SIMPLE!! But if you do agree to something then I would fully expect that should things turn out not as planned you as the buyer would honor whatever you agreed to. Its not like the breeder is just trying to screw you over. This is why these agreements need to be made in the first place.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

A question on expectations - should there be a time limit clause in a deposit contract? That is, if i put a deposit down for a particular litter and for some reasom it doesn't take either no puppies or no males/females - whatever we contracted for but esp. in the case of no litter.

And the breeder is small w/o any other litters due. How long should I be normally expected to wait? I.E. next season (6-8 mo)? And what if the next one doesn't take - another 6-8 mo +? 

Would the normal practice of a small breeder be to eventually return the deposit if that breeding never takes (for whatever reason)? Or would I be forced to take a puppy from a litter that wasn't what I thought I contracted for?


The matter of taking a deposit on an object (puppy) that doesn't exist is a very tricky one I would think - as I can see both sides of it. But my deposit should not be used to cove breeding expenses (i.e. stud fee, etc.) I don't believe.

I would, I hope, write into the contract when I gave a deposit on a particular litter and even a particular type of puppy (male, long hair, black for example) along with the conditions that would cause a return (if i had any!). If the breeder doesn't agree then find another breeder (or get a rescue!!!!!!!) or maybe someone with puppies/dogs already in existence.

Tough situation for both!!!!!!!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Contracts are not always iron clad and there are always loop holes. The states laws also need to be taken into consideration.

Two people cannot enter into a contract that violates a state law. The state law makes it null and void. At least that is how it is in our state.

While dogs are not cars....it is still a business transaction. If you go to a car dealer, he says "YES, we will have black coming in next week." and you say, "I want black!" give him a deposit that is specified for a certain color..then the time comes and he says "sorry, we only have red". Then YES the buyer has a right to get their money back, even if there is a contract, because the seller did not uphold their end of the contract. Now..there is some wiggle room, such as giving more time for the color to come in, renegotiating on the terms, etc etc. But in the end, if the seller does not uphold their end of the sale, then usually the buyer is entitled to a full refund regardless of contract.

If there is not a contract, then most states have a default that they go by. Like, with renting, in our state if there is no lease, it defaults to a month by month and those rules apply. (no im not comparing renting to dogs)

The OP has no contract, so it would default to whatever the laws are in her area. There is no contract, so I fail to see why people are focused on that so much. If we were dealing with a contract then it could very well be different. Personally I would either expect my deposit back, or a guarantee on a future breeding such as first or second pick. That's just good business practice when dealing with your customers. But that is just IMO.

I think that you and your breeder can come up with something that makes you both happy.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

It kind of sounds simple to me...a quick phone call between the potential puppy buyer & breeder..questions asked, concerns addressed and hopefully two satisfied people at the end of the conversation


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Marshies....
> How long did I refuse to take a deposit from you?.....
> I only agreed when you absolutely decided that you really wanted her....and I would have to keep her for over a month till you were physically better.....and ONLY because I would not be able (during that time) to accept another home/buyer for her. I also would not accept total payment until she was almost ready to go home.
> 
> ...


Robin, I'm sorry if I came across wrong and upsetted you. What in sayin is I don't know who Paula's breeders are and what their agreements were. But I do know how you acted in my situation, which was 100% considerate of my decision and timeline. Which is why I said what I said. If it were a good breeder, like yourself, it would not come down to the formal process. But if Paula's breeder was joe brown in the newspaper and was being unreasonable about how to go forward now that they have a deposit down, whether it be finding another litter that worked or whatever it may be, it's the last recourse


Reasonable buyers and reasonable breeders never make it there because they are serious about the transaction on both ends.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I feel pretty confident that Paula will be able to work something out with her breeder - she is not a bad breeder and really does try to accomodate what her puppy buyers want/need. I have not gotten a puppy from her, but I have entertained the idea in the past and I know someone who has a few from her - very nice dogs. I don't think Paula is asking for too much and I think her breeder will be able to work something out that will make both of them happy, whether it be refunding the deposit or holding off till that breeding is repeated even though the timing is not good. No reason to make the breeder out to be a bad breeder and no reason to make Paula look bad simply because she wants her puppy to look a certain way - there is no harm in that. Plus the puppy she wanted would be a full sibling to her dog - she already knows she loves her dog and a dog from the same pairing would likely result in a similar dog. Why not go with what you know works for you.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> So here's my question, and I hope some of you breeders will chine in on this, would it be wrong of me to expect the breeder to refund our deposit?


This is the op original question. I think it got lost in this thread.

No, in my opinion, not only would it not be wrong to ask for your deposit back it should be refunded.

You selected a certain litter based on your preferences. 

The timing was good for you for adding a young dog. (Wish all puppy buyers would think of that)

The litter did not happen. Through no fault of their own the breeder did basically default, not you.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in with an opinion. We are still processing the false pregnancy. It feels curiously similar to actually losing a puppy, although obviously not nearly as painful.

No matter what we decide, we'll try to work it our amicably with our breeder and I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to reach an agreement that will be satisfactory to both of us.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I personally don't put a deposit down unless it's on an actual DOG, not a hypothetical litter in the future that may or may not produce anything I'm interested in. I put a deposit down on Pan because it was my first dealing with his breeder, but I sent a deposit AFTER the litter was born and it was verified that there were three stock coated males and two that fit the temperament I was looking for. My deposit was not for a hypothetical litter but one of those two actual dogs. I was not interested in any other dogs for sale or planned upcoming litters.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I am extremely glad this post was created so those of us getting puppies in the future did not make the same mistake. Thank you OP


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

paulag1955 said:


> Just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in with an opinion. We are still processing the false pregnancy. It feels curiously similar to actually losing a puppy, although obviously not nearly as painful.
> 
> No matter what we decide, we'll try to work it our amicably with our breeder and I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to reach an agreement that will be satisfactory to both of us.


 
I get the impression it was always about a new puppy and the deposit was just ancillary. That is very honorable, and its also why I am sure you wont have any trouble with whatever happens next. Good luck.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Good luck Paula!! I'm so sorry the pregnancy didn't take, I think I would feel the same way if it happened to me! I know when my breeder told me that she had retired Glock's mom and there would be no more litters like his I was a little sad and I hadn't ever even thought of trying to get another puppy from a repeat litter!!

A male Shasta would be stunning.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Paula I have a question. Do you think MAYBE you could talk to the breeder and see if maybe they will do something in writing stating they will change the deposit to the next litter contingent on the fact there is a male long coat sable that fits what you are looking for and if not you get the deposit back? That way if there is you are assured a puppy and if not you get the deposit back instead of just taking it back now then running the risk of losing a potentially perfect pup from the next litter in the spring? not sure if its possible just throwing out an extra option that may or may not have been considered and then would cover everyone. I know how hard it is I had my heart DEAD SET on a litter and it didn't work however I have Jinx which was a litter I absolutely was not going to do (bad timing) however in the end everything worked out and she is PERFECT for me. Also converted me to sables and to the long coats


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Personally, I'm just curious why someone would breed two coats together...


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Holmeshx2 said:


> Paula I have a question. Do you think MAYBE you could talk to the breeder and see if maybe they will do something in writing stating they will change the deposit to the next litter contingent on the fact there is a male long coat sable that fits what you are looking for and if not you get the deposit back?


Yes, we will...we just have to make up our collective minds as to exactly what we want to do. Even thought I think it would be a absolute nightmare to get a puppy in the fall, we still may want to wait for the repeat breeding.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Yes, we will...we just have to make up our collective minds as to exactly what we want to do. Even thought I think it would be a absolute nightmare to get a puppy in the fall, we still may want to wait for the repeat breeding.


Its a pain but tell me you wouldn't do it again for Shasta :wub:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Generally the bulk of potty training is done in about 3 weeks, so it's not like it goes on too terribly long. I brought home Uma the last week of January last year, and while we don't generally get snow around here, we do get bitterly cold temps at night (in the teens) during January and February. So while I hated getting up and putting on the down squall parka and slippers to go out at bedtime and during the night, I was pretty much done with that by the first of March.

Annette


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

I don't mind going out in the cold and I would actually LOVE going out in the snow. We get rain. It can rain here for weeks, almost without stopping and our yard basically turns into a mud pit. It's just not something I'm looking forward to. Yes, most of the hard work is done in about 3 weeks, but if I remember correctly, I was still taking Shasta out quite a few times a day even after she was reliably trained. Our yard isn't fenced, so it's not as though I could let even an older puppy outside unsupervised.

Also, yes, I would do it again in a heartbeat for Shasta!


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

The breeder I was originally going to go with had a nonrefundable deposit and I had placed one on second female. If there was NOT a second female in the litter, it'd be moved to another litter. I knew that before hand, but I also had a contract and she made it clear to me. The stars were not properly aligned for me and that puppy at the time, so I ended up losing my deposit all together and going with another breeder, but again, I KNEW it was nonrefundable beforehand. Good luck!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Betty said:


> This is the op original question. I think it got lost in this thread.
> 
> No, in my opinion, not only would it not be wrong to ask for your deposit back it should be refunded.
> 
> ...



This happened to me several years ago with a board member, Barb E - she sent me a deposit after the breeding was done...the breeding did not take, and I returned her deposit. I asked her on the next breeding if she was interested, and due to her own non related to dog issues - it was not...the relationship always remained cordial....and 3 or 4 years later, Barb decided the timing was right and she decided to get a puppy...no problem, did not even take a deposit until a few weeks after the pups were born 

If the OP has a good relationship with the breeder, I doubt that there would be a problem...

Lee


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

If someone had told me you had handled the situation differently Lee, I would of felt pretty comfortable telling them they were mistaken........<grin>

I'm surprised that some people think it's more complicated then that. 

The breeding did not take. End of story.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

wolfstraum said:


> This happened to me several years ago with a board member, Barb E - she sent me a deposit after the breeding was done...the breeding did not take, and I returned her deposit. I asked her on the next breeding if she was interested, and due to her own non related to dog issues - it was not...the relationship always remained cordial....and 3 or 4 years later, Barb decided the timing was right and she decided to get a puppy...no problem, did not even take a deposit until a few weeks after the pups were born
> 
> If the OP has a good relationship with the breeder, I doubt that there would be a problem...
> 
> Lee


I so understand how Paula feels about the breeding not taking, I felt the same way when Basha wasn't pregnant the first time. 

And here we are now.....with the Sable Tornado


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

paulag1955 said:


> The breeder is going to repeat this pairing, depending on when the bitch goes into heat, but the puppies would likely not be ready to go home until fall. Unless you've lived in Western Washington, you can't imagine the absolute dread I have of taking delivery of a tiny puppy, who will need to be escorted outside many, many times a day, just as the rain and mud season is getting underway. So I need a spring puppy.


I'm in Portland Oregon, I feel your pain on that one!!

I felt the same way, but when this K litter came to be I had a thought I hadn't had before.

Given our mild winters temperature wise, I'm able to take Kaos to the office with me and crate her in the Explorer.

This has proved to be very valuable in many ways:
She gets to meet a LOT of people
I have training time with her I wouldn't otherwise
No $$ for someone to come in multiple times a day to potty her
Etc

Don't get me wrong, the middle of the night potty runs in the pouring down rain are not fun :rofl:


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Barb, I work from home so I'm fortunate(?) enough to be able to be with a puppy nearly 24/7. If we do end up with a fall puppy, I'll just prepare a heavily wood-chipped area where we can at least stay out of the mud.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

paulag1955 said:


> Barb, I work from home so I'm fortunate(?) enough to be able to be with a puppy nearly 24/7. If we do end up with a fall puppy, I'll just prepare a heavily wood-chipped area where we can at least stay out of the mud.


I work from home 2 days a week (today is one, shhhh I shouldn't be here :rofl: ) and that is most helpful!!!

At one point I was ready to build an Ark I had so much water in my backyard, since it's only February I'm not hopeful that was the only "Ark Building" time!!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

You 2 be glad you live oin the warm, rainy side of the mountains!!!

I have no problem with PDX winters.(After living in the Vancouver area and north for 30 years.

But there is no way I can imagine having a baby puppy in the winter over here!!!! Some winters we have snow from November until April!! And as if that isnt bad enough, there are the temps from the mid teens to below zero. And that isn't taking into consideration the wind chill when the wind blows 25+ mph with gusts to 50 mph!!!!!! NO, no winter puppy here!!!! LOL


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