# Which method would you use?



## Brightelf

I am so hoping those with experience in holistic therapies and methods can guide me or offer ideas for which to try for a really odd problem I've never seen in a dog before, certainly never to this degree. It seems to be a neuro issue, to be truthful-- the way the dog is wired. So, really want to find a therapy to ease this for him and us. 

I am getting to the root of what is problematic with Grimm. He has a strange tendency (I have NEVER seen this before) to see something he wants to greet (usually a dog, sometimes a dearly loved guest), and he suddenly gets this *extreme intensity that rapidly SKYROCKETS*-- right through the roof. Not only I can I not really control him then, but he also cannot control himself. The skyrocketing intensity suddenly turns into an explosion-- where he bolts right towards the object of his greeting-desire. The tension just boils right over, and he detonates (bolts headlong towards the dog or person he wants to greet). He is otherwise a good boy, but becomes "easily aroused" to the extreme. It's as if he is FINE until he sees something he must have. (wants to greet) Then, the intensity suddenly is there and just skyrockets. (yes, done the training to re-focus him, left turns, sits, downs, etc.) The current running under the surface is too powerful.

Done the sit/wait/give focus/wait for release command for each meal, and in coming through all doorways, since he was 9 weeks old. It hasn't helped-- because even HE cannot truly control himself when the sudden intensity happens and shoots right through the roof.

This is something to do with the way Grimm is wired. This is a neuro issue. While he is very immature (to be expected with Czech lines) at his age, most young dogs do not have this bizarre, sudden intensity to get to who they want to greet and then explode to get there. This is WAY more than a simple impulse control issue or training/managment concern, since we've incorperated "wait training" into our daily lives since day one.

*It is the <span style="color: #FF0000">tendency</span> for these "sudden intensity skyrocketing into explosions" to happen, that I need to find a way to address. *

Chinese Traditional Medicine herbs to rebalance a system that is running on extreme high-speed? Homeopathy? bach flower too gentle? Ideas?

This isn't normal. This isn't just an active overgrown pup with poor impulse control.. there's an underlying current that only gets activated when he wants something. (usually, to greet a dog or person) yes, I am delighted he is friendly and not aggressive-- but this tendency to explode is *extreme.* He is just simply wired that way.

Ironicly he is otherwise a GSD who is calm in the house, settles immediately after entering the house, never destroyed anything as a puppy, never nipped, never chewed, never needed to learn bite inhibition.

Also ironicly, he is only a medium-energy GSD who is "done" after maybe 10 mins chasing thrown rubber balls. Low excersise needs compared to other GSDs I have had. He never paces in the house. He's a blob. If he is exhausted by too much excersise, it does NOT effect this tendency to have the sudden intensity/explosion when he sees another dog or beloved guest. He gets the extreme sudden intensity and detonates the same regardless of excersise.

Which therapies may be best for preventing him from getting so easily aroused! i want him to be at peace near things he wants, instead of at the mercy of skyrocketing arousal/intensity/explosions.


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## littledmc17

Would Rescue Remedy work? I bought some for missy and obviously I don't need it

If you want I can smuggle it to you its for pets


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## Brightelf

Thank you Dawn, I thought about that, too! Unfortunately I kinda think it would be like tossing a cup of water on a raging housefire, though.







The problem is way beyond extreme.

I think I need a longterm re-balancing thing, or a daily holistic medical management plan for this like daily Chinese herbs,







daily homeopathy, or something. This is an extreme weird wiring problem. he goes through the roof and explodes.

I am hoping all is okay with Missy Choco-Moo. I am following her thread, and sending you mondo good luck vibes for the vet's!!


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## littledmc17

you give it daily!!
if you want it I'll send it to you 
I hate to see it go to waste
you let me know

I think he will calm down in a year or so
he is still a pupper and loves everyone


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## gsdlove212

Patti...I am wondering, you got my wheels a turning. My son, Brayden is on the Austism Spectrum. Because of this he can become easily stimulated by certain things that go un noticed to us. Some things he is over-stimulated by and others he is under-stimulated. I wonder if some sort of therapy (sensory integration) might could help. I have no clue how you would find someone willing to try it on a dog, but maybe someone could offer you some suggestions. 

Even though Grimmi seems to be wired this way, that doesn't mean he can't learn to keep it under control to an extent. Will it be a challange for him, yeppers. And it will take alot of time and consistancy, but I am confident he can learn to control this. And perhaps using some sort of homeopathic therapy to kind of tone him down while you work him in these situations can speed it up a bit. 

Hopefully someone can offer you some advice, but I will keep this at the top of my thoughts.


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## Technostorm

Hi Patti, 

I'm no behavorist but, it seems like you need a very experienced behaviourist along with calming meds. Someone who also has a pack of balanced dogs that Grimm can intermix with. This is hoping that he will gradually learn to control himself and learn from other balanced dogs all while under meds to calm himself down. Then, the human aspect again with meds and training. 

I've seen dogs that are genetically wired to extreme excitement and no workout, running, walks or excercise will help. The dog can be extremely tired yet, the neuro part of him will kick in and his andrenaline will push it over the top and he becomes arouse in a fraction of a second.

The hardest part I would guess is finding the right behavorist with a pack of dogs. Someone like Ceser Millan (althought I don't all agree with him sometimes), but a similar short term work is needed in this case I assume. Good luck and keep us posted.

Dan


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## LJsMom

Is Grimmie's diet high in carbohydrates?


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## Brightelf

Dawn, thank you! I may take you up on the offer anyway when I get back.







I am so sorry that it didn't seem to help Missy Moo as much as you'd hoped. Unfortunately, this is way more than "excited teenager dog." It's sudden extreme intensity that rapidly builds until he explodes. Never seen this before even in young dogs. VERY weird.

GSDLove212, thank you for thinking about this and keeping it in your thoughts! I am truly baffled, because I have never seen anything like this before. But autism spectrum disorders come to mind too here. My sister's son has sensory intergration disorder, and she brushes him with a plastic brush, It makes s difference! WQith Grimm, this is extreme, bizzarre, and something oddly neuro. I am hoping something out there might help!

Dan, thank you for posting! Yes, Grimm needs work, for sure, and a behaviorist would be ideal. But, this also is something physical-- is how he is wired. It is truly extreme, and ironicly, he is not a high drive dog, either. I am hoping to get a behaviorist-- but need to find one who can offer me more than I am doing now myself (the sit and wait and give focus before eating, before released to come through doorways, etcv etc.. we're already doing that and have been since 9 weeks.. hasn't made a dent)

This sure is strange. I've never seen anything like this before.


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## Brightelf

Joanne, he is raw fed, so very little. But you are right, carbs can make things worse. Right now, he is eating some carbs in homecooked chix and rice, and yes it is maybe a bit worse, but overall, this seems to be something other than carbs, as it happens even on his usual raw.









Dan, he actually just got back from a send-away with extensive follow-up with me for a Cesar Millan-type training where he was turned out with a pack for 10 hours a day. It helped. But the underlying hidden current was still there, waiting to eriupt into the intensity when he saw a trigger. So, very frustrating that this happens.. we both feel overwhelmed when it happens, both Grimm and I. Am hoping for a therapy to help, since we will look for a training club and behaviorist-- although most trainers probably have in fact not seen this. This is (otherwise) not a hyper dog. Very odd.


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## Chicagocanine

If possible I would recommend a consultation with a holistic veterinarian.


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## Maedchen

Its clearly not a training issue and trainers like Milan can do more harm then good.








If you find an EXPERIENCED classical homeopath (shouldn't be hard to find in Germany) he can be much helped or even cured, cranio-sacral therapy (osteopathy) should def. help too.


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## littledmc17

Patti I was told her poop issues were stress related and suggested the rescue remedy 

absolutely when you get back its yours 
and I know some herbalists that may be able to help when you get back too


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## Brightelf

Mädchen, we move to USA next month. I am totally eager to try homeopathy, and will consider that. Cranio-sacral therapy? Do many holistic vets do this? (I don't know quite what that is, to be honest-- have never heard of it before)

ChicagoCanine, absolutely. A consult is what I am going to get when I can. I am hoping the vet I choose offers many therapies, especially Chinese herbs and homeopathy.

I wish this were a training issue. Corrections DO help him to control himself to a small degree, but the base problem itself needs to be addressed (the sudden intensity out of the blue when he sees a trigger, then it goes through the roof and he explodes). To set us both up for success, we need to stop the problem at the source, his nerves, his wiring. So, I am trying to figure out a holistic therapy that would apply to such a strange problem. I have just never seen or hear of this before.

Thanks Dawn! Herbalists are good! I can't wait to meet you and Brady! As you can see, at this point, it will sadly need to be without Grimm, until we can get this under some sort of control.


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## Technostorm

Hey Patti, 

When you do arrive into the U.S., maybe also look into doggy acupunture. I've read and heard it can effectively calm and help hyper dogs. To what extend is beyond my knowledge. Anything is worth a try and looked into at this point. Please keep us posted and good luck. 

Dan


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## Brightelf

Thanks for the idea, Dan. While Grimm oddly isn't hyper (until this cascade of intensity symptoms sets in), who knows, it may help. If I can find a holistic vet who offers enough varying types of therapy, hopefully she or he may also offer accupuncture, and can tell me if it might suit this unusual problem or not. Thank you for your input, Dan-- I really do appreciate it!


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## LisaT

In this way, Max and Grimm could be brothers, they share this trait. Standard training stuff doesn't get at this particular issue, though, as you know, completely necessary to provide structure, etc. 

This is a constitutional issue, and if you find a good homeopathic practitioner, they should be able to help. I have one that might do phone consults, if and when you are ever ready. I haven't been able to work much with her with Max -- so many fires to put out with these dogs in the past couple years, too much to manage, both with time and finances.

There are only two things that I have found so far that make a difference with Max. The first is that he is so much better when he is on doxycycline -- which leads me to believe he is hosting some systemic "thing". The second is when I added a fish oil, high in EPA, kinda by accident. This is the one that I've been using: http://www.vitacost.com/Country-Life-Omega-3-Mood

Craniosacral - Tuning in: http://www.equinecst.com/


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## Brightelf

Thank you for the input, Lisa! Max is this way, too? Is he always hyped up? Or only suddenly when he sees something he wants and it just gets to this insane intensity/detonation? Grimm is a blob in the house, but gets wildly hyped up when a visitor comes that he WANTS to greet right now now nowwww-- and it escalates. Very much, as you say, a constitution issue. It's how he's wired. He came this way at 9 weeks. More than low frustration tolerance, more than impatience, more than impulse control issues.. a friendly happy dog who suddenly gets intensity that builds superfast into an explosion. YIKES. This is likely a neuro/nerve issue.

Training can help to some small degree, but it is the *tendency* to suddenly get intense and explode that is the real problem.

I may take you up on the phone consult idea, if the holistic vet is as good as you say! Thank you so much for thinking of Grimmi and me!


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## LisaT

Yes, reactive is a bit of an understatement. Max is a very lovable and sweet boy, but only once he has "settled". It does not take much to trigger this "tunnel vision" type of reactiveness, and when it's triggered, there is no outside world for him. *He cannot handle stimulation* 

Oddly enough, it is similar with nutrition and supplements. If I add something with him, it has to be small doses, or it overwhelms him. Indy seems to absorb and utilize evrything, not so with Max. Very often I have to give him the same dose I would give little Indy, rather than a GSD size dose. 

I am now wondering, as I think about this, if it's not the vaccines. I had a hair analysis done, and the metal getting close to the "high" measurement for Max was mercury. 

I guess I'm curious about doing a metal detox. And homeopathy is one of the best treatments for anything vaccine related.


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## gsdlove212

Wow...it sure sounds alot like Autism related issues. Very interesting indeed.


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## Chicagocanine

My holistic vet uses many different therapies and treatments including acupuncture, different herbs including chinese, massage therapy, chiropractic and others. So hopefully you should be able to find a vet like that. If you're interested this is my vet: http://royaltreatmentvetspa.com/


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## BowWowMeow

Hi Patti,

I agree that classical homeopathy would be the way to go with this one. You may have to try different remedies (one at a time) but hopefully one will work. 

Basu was like this--I used to describe it as going from zero to 60 in one second flat. He had many triggers and I had to watch him like a hawk b/c once he got set off he was, well, for lack of a better word: off. In his case it was very dangerous as he was a fear biter.









I wasn't able to treat the problem holistically and as he got older he mellowed out somewhat. 

I am hoping that once you move and get (hopefully!) get Grimm into a play group that this behavior will quiet down.


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## Brightelf

Ruth, my gosh, Grimmi is zero-to-sixty when this happens! Good description! May I ask which homeopathic (or holistic) methods you did try with Basu? I am on the edge of my seat...


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## Brightelf

Lisa, you also described it perfectly! No outside world when this kicks in. "Reactive" really IS an understatement!! This is something we will forever be training to work on, but, I do want to find a holistic treatment, too, because it is clear that this is physical.

GSDLove212, your sweet son is so lucky to have such an educated, well-read Mom who never stops learning, all to better things for him in his life. Your kids are very fortunate to have such a loving, savvy, caring Mom!! And yup, my nephew has an autism spectrum disorder too, odd how nerves suddenly come into play in some situations with certain stimulus. Know?

Hopefully ChicagoCanine, I'll find a scopey holistic vet who has as much to offer as your super vet. Good going finding that clinic!

I wonder how many behavioral tendencies are physical?

Please, if anyone can think of a holistic method that can help this tendency, please let me know!


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI wonder how many behavioral tendencies are physical?


Probably a lot more than people realize. Even SIBO can have an effect. When Indy is sore, she becomes quite stubborn. I often mistake that for her "regular" stubbornness, but I see how different she is on antibiotics. Training her when she was younger, really taught me a lot!!




> Quotelease, if anyone can think of a holistic method that can help this tendency, please let me know!


Absolutely -- we need more tools for this!


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## Brightelf

Lisa, Val also said something about Cheyenne being sensitive to food and tummy issues effecting her behavior. We already think of thyroid with some behavior concerns.

I sure wish physical causes of behavioral issues were discussed more often by people-- owners, vets, trainers, holistic practitioners, etc!

I wonder about vaccines, about neuro issues, and I also think on the Traditional Chinese medicine "systems" of things being out-of-whack and needing balance to be restored. I wonder about glandular issues, about lots of things.

What flummoxes me is that this is only a medium drive, medium energy dog... I could understand this so much better if he were ALWAYS hyped up.

Know what's sad? This is an über-friendly dog. Socially open with people and dogs, non-aggressive. "he just wants to say Hi" is the truth here. But, it's what triggers this cascade of symptoms and he becomes unreachable very very quickly, and explodes, blasting right towards the other dog (or much-loved guest). He gets ramped up when in a very chaotic and very new situation too, when he is onlead with a group of people who are all friendly to him. He becomes so insanely hyped-up.







Want to learn what can help mitigate the underlying physical cause for this!


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## LisaT

Even the trainer that I used to work with couldn't break through this stuff with Max, which says a lot, because she is a type of "dog whisperer" in her own right. 

I used to want to blame a lot of this on what happened to him before he got here. Those things did reinforce some bad things, but they didn't cause him to be the way that he is.

I thought that some of the things would change when STB-ex left. Some did -- Max and I communicate better, and in some ways I am retraining him as you would a pup or a new rescue, but it hasn't changed the fundamental nature of his issues. 

Sometimes, when he is in that tunnel, I put the palm of my hand over his eyes until he settles. It's about the only thing I have found that causes him to settle himself when he has gone over the line. We are getting better at getting him not to cross that line, but that's the age thing.

He responds to all males better than any female. Ticks me off. I suspect that has someting to do with previous training also -- it's the males that probably had the power to shock, etc. He does not behave for them out of self-control though, it is more out of fear.


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## Brightelf

Lisa, I see I'm really not alone. How frustrating with Max! When they are in that tunnel, reaching them is near impossible. There must be something physical going on, because it escalates so quickly, that even when motivated, shaped, corrected, etc all of that, this intensity just skyrockets. Physically, something is going on that we do not yet understand.

"Easily aroused" and "reactive dog" really are understatements. I think of temporal lobe epilepsy, of thyroid issues, of encephalitis, of humans that have "a short fuse," and so did their father, grandfather and great-grandfather, etc... and I am baffled. I'm doing all the training work-- I am committed to doing that! I just wish I had a handle on what physically is causing this.


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## LisaT

Has Grimm ever had a full thyroid panel, including TgAA, thyroglobulin antibodies?


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## BowWowMeow

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfRuth, my gosh, Grimmi is zero-to-sixty when this happens! Good description! May I ask which homeopathic (or holistic) methods you did try with Basu? I am on the edge of my seat...


Patti,

I'm reading a really good book on homeopathy for animals right now. I am going to look and see what remedy might be prescribed for Grimm and will report back! 

Basu had so many health problems that I didn't even try to treat his reactivity with homeopathy. I didn't know as much about it then as I do now either.


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## LisaT

I am not sure that those books will be able to offer something to effect constitutional change, as that type of homeopathy is pretty complicated, but maybe you will find something that will help take the edge off. I'll be curious to see what you come up with!


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## Brightelf

Uodate: I asked on a holistic vet forum, and the vet suggested getting a homeopath consult of course, but that homeopathic phosphorus may be helpful.

Anything 'bout that in your books, Ruth?

Lisa, I am amazed that Max is this way too. I feel like I am alone in the world with this, because it is so much more than just reactivity.

My feeling is that I want to try both homeopathy (if there is something in that modality that might help such a tendency) and possibly at some point also look to Chinese herbs to rebalance whatever is out of whack. 

I also will get his thyroid checked, Lisa-- great idea! Will need to wait until I get him back in USA for that though.

How would I know if he has too much mercury in him from a 5 way puppy vaccine? How can I test for it so I can know if I need to do a detox for mercury?


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## LisaT

Sure wish I could find my "dog notes" . Indy was on phosphorus, Max wasn't, and that's about all I remember:

http://www.holisticonline.com/remedies/Anxiety/anx_homeopathy.htm#Phosphorus
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/homeopathy_advice/Remedies/POLYCHRESTS/phos.html
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/p/phos.htm
http://tinyurl.com/m9g5o7
and from Vithoulkas, the master:
http://www.vithoulkas.com/content/view/408/lang,en/

Max's thyroid was low-normal, but he had some antibodies, and his T3 is always low, even with supplementation. It wasn't clear whether he should be treated, but it made a huge difference. I had to leave our old vet to get him treated.

For the heavy metals, I had a hair analysis done, but I honestly don't know how valid the results are. It was more of a curiousity.


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## Brightelf

Thanks for posting, Lisa. I'm grateful to read your experiences with Max.

I am committed to address the training side of this, but still am curious about holistic modalities to try to find a way to simmer down his engine







when he sees something he wants (to greet a dog or a loved guest). I guess I'll really need to get with a holistic vet when I'm in Massachusetts-- as well as get his







thyroid tested.

I want ideas, I want options, I want solutions.







As I said, I'm quite committed to continuing to throw all I have into the training aspect of this. Praying maturity helps.







But, just so wish to find a way to address the physical source. This goes so far beyond being reactive, easily excitable, leash reactivity, impulse control issues, low frustration tolerance, etc. It's how he's wired.








And the freaky thing is, he is a relatively calm dog otherwise-- until a trigger sets him off and he's suddenly, abruptly unreachable in that intensity.


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## LisaT

Hey Patti, just curious how alike or different Grimm and Max really are. 

Does Grimm ever avoid eye contact? 

Prone to panting, red eyes, or ear infections? Does he drink a lot of water?

What's irritating, isan at the beginning of a walk, if a car zooms by us going too fast, that will ruin him for almost the entire walk. 

Btw, he HATES motorcycles and, when he is in the yard, barks at planes! The latter just might be boredom though?


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## LJsMom

> Originally Posted By: LisaTwhen he is in the yard, barks at planes!


Wow, and I thought Lady Jane was bad. She does bark at pictures of people on buses. Not all people, just certain ones.


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## LisaT

Oh LadyJane, bark away!! That is so funny!! I love that she discriminates!


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## LJsMom

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh LadyJane, bark away!! That is so funny!! I love that she discriminates!


Yeah, well, it's embarrassing.


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## DancingCavy

Patti, though this isn't EXACTLY the same as Grimm, I know several people who have their dogs on anti-anxiety medications so that they could get their dogs to a level where they could learn. Basically, the dog's anxiety was so high they could 'not be reached.' But, by putting them on medication, they were able to lessen the anxiety to the point that they could work the dog. It basically becomes a part of the behavior modification.

I think something like this could work for Grimm (not an anti-anxiety med per se, just something to 'take the edge off'). It may not need to be a permanent solution, but could be what you both need to get him to a level where he could learn proper behavior.

Just a thought.


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## natalie559

Patti I haven't read everything here so not sure if this was mentioned but my friends give their lab valerian root to help calm him.


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## Brightelf

Jamie, yes, good point-- calm enough to learn. In certain situations, perhaps, like a class setting or something?

Natalie, maybe valerian is a good idea for a class setting or something, a stressful situation where I need him to be just calm enough to be able to focus. Do you know anything about Chinese herbs? Or Homeopathy? I am kinda clueless.. and keeping lots of ideas open right now.

Around the home and on walks, Grimm is calm enough. I wouldn't want or need him sleepy, per se. Just wishing for a way to prevent that zero-to-sixty explosion thing from happening in situations where he gets wildly overexcited suddenly. (seeing a dog on walks, when a beloved guest is in sight)


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## LisaT

If you are in the mood for googling, maybe there are some things that help with autism that might be useful here?


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## LJsMom

Or even Executive Functioning Deficit in Asperger Syndrome.


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## Brightelf

Ow! Ow! My cerebellum is cramping up!







Complex info.. time to start Googling! Am not truly sure this corresponds to something like an autism spectrum disorder, but I will be looking and reading about that anyway, just to see if anything seems to click. Mainly, I am approaching this from a training angle-- but really am hoping for also trying a holistic modality to kinda "cool the fire" in his tendency to get suddenly hyped up by a trigger. Sigh.


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## gsdlove212

Patti~ To me, it does sound very very similar to an ASD. Just a thought.... there is a part of the brain called the Reticular Activating System (RAS). The RAS is kind of a filter of sorts. It effects our perception of stimuli and thus our reactions. Sometimes the RAS doesn't function correctly, it filters too much out. When this happens only the things the RAS allowed in will be acknowledged or recognized (like when Grimmi sees a friend/potiential playmate). What determines what our RAS deems important? We do, usually...our subconcious (ever say you can't find something, and then find out later it was right in fron tof you...your RAS was following orders from your sub-c "you can't find this"). Sometimes though, systems just don't work right. Sometimes the RAS malfunctions the other way, and doesn't filter enough stimuli out, thus causing an overload. All very interesting stuff, but while the RAS is rarely talked about in conjunction with Autism, I can see a very distinct and obvious link.


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## LisaT

Okay, guess I am off to google


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## BowWowMeow

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfJamie, yes, good point-- calm enough to learn. In certain situations, perhaps, like a class setting or something?
> 
> Natalie, maybe valerian is a good idea for a class setting or something, a stressful situation where I need him to be just calm enough to be able to focus. Do you know anything about Chinese herbs? Or Homeopathy? I am kinda clueless.. and keeping lots of ideas open right now.
> 
> Around the home and on walks, Grimm is calm enough. I wouldn't want or need him sleepy, per se. Just wishing for a way to prevent that zero-to-sixty explosion thing from happening in situations where he gets wildly overexcited suddenly. (seeing a dog on walks, when a beloved guest is in sight)


Valerian is a sedative and definitely makes you sleepy. Grimm sounds like such a mellow guy that I don't think anything with sedative qualities is going to be helpful. 

I honestly think that the right homeopathic remedy would be the way to go. I have looked at my books though and there is nothing very specific about behavioral stuff.







I think it would be wise to work with someone who is trained in homeopathy to find the right remedy. 

What about a specific Bach Flower Essence? That might also work. There are specific essences for thunderstorm fears, helping to come out of anesthesia, etc. and I've found that they work very well. http://www.bachflower.com/Article-OverviewBFR.htm


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## Brightelf

GSDLove212, you bring up some good points. It really does seem neuro to me.

Ruth, I kinda don't want him dopey/sleepy. he is a blob in the house, calm on walks, and one of those dogs who never destroyed anything, even as a puppy, no separation anxiety, etc etc... BUT, the instant that he sees a guest he loves or a dog he wants to greet (or is in a new situation without STRONG, calm leadership) he freaks out. A current of hyper-excitement switches on, and he himself cannot stop it. He becomes insanely hyped up. Can't feel corrections. Tunnel vision. zero-to-sixty. Vibrating with extreme intensity, waiting to EXPPLODE towards who he wants to greet, and if in the new situation, ready to explode in all directions simultaneously. OH, and if anyone adds any giddy energy: "Bahahahaa! He sure is hyped up! Bahahahaa!" He feeds on that, it exacerbates the condition, tunnel vision excludes me and my corrections, he goes through the roof in wildness and is out of control. 

But I swear, oddly, where there is nothing/nobody he sees that he wants to greet, and he is not in a new situation with wimpy leadership, he is an easygoing fellow who lounges around at home and schlumps along in perfect heel on walks.


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## puppymamma

Wow! It sounds like we all have very similar dogs. Barrett is very very similar to what both of you are describing. One of my issues is that once he gets worked up over something he can't let it go. He will continue to be a boob for the rest of the day if something has set him off.
I want to go the holistic route and rescue remedy didn't touch it. Any ideas?


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## puppymamma

Ok I am rereading some of these posts and realizing that Grimm, Max, and Barrett are the same dog! I am so shocked that all the behaviours you two are describing are so close to what is happening for me. So on Sat I took Barrett to my favourite small town to do some people desensitization. It was the worst ever! Right out the door he barked at a guy and pulled me


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## LisaT

This isn't so much about STRONG leadership, as it is about communicating what is and isn't appropriate. 

Somewhere along the line these dogs got the wrong message and unlearning, or learning a replacement behavior is difficult. Once something is learned in a heightened situation, it is harder to unlearn. 

One of Max's problems is that I haven't spent the time with him alone, without Indy, training. He also can't wear any type of collar - what I wouldn't give to have him on a rolled collar instead of a harness 

For the training, it has to be baby steps, not too much too soon. And he needs BIG DOG releases to play and run, and he needs consistency and to learn to communicate. 

Puppymama, can you have Barrett look you in the eye on command ("watch me")?


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## puppymamma

I can get it all the time at home (100%) but never when he is in an aroused state. Although I have to say he is getting better with all the work we are doing.


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## LisaT

A good guideline to follow then is that if you are so close that he won't do a "watch me", then you are too close too fast. I think a, common mistake, which I do to, is getting too close too soon. Having the patience for those baby steps for me is difficult. 

Glad Barrett is getting better though! Max is too


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## puppymamma

I feel like I have to get close to make sure that he won't lunge at someone. He is very loud and barky when he is in that state and I just can't trust him. The worst part is that I know I will have to trust him sometime or else this won't work. He is just so disappointing sometimes. I know that he reads my vibes - its very obvious. So I am for sure working on that. I am just so tired of being embarrassed and having people look at me like "how could you have a dog like that????"
We are working in very small steps. As in 2 steps forward - 1 step back!


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## LisaT

Remember, every time that he gets too close and lunges and/or barks, that reinforces what he is already doing. Close in by inches and small steps, but not too close where he has success. Have you seen the little book Feisty Fido?


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## 3K9Mom

I just stumbled here and skimmed quickly. At my service dog club mtg last month, we had an expert on flower essences speak. She said that Rescue Remedy is so dilute that she doesn't consider it worth the effort, much less the money. If you're going to use bach flower, you need to buy it from someone who actually sells *real* flower essences. 

She strongly recommends with reactive dogs that you consult with someone who does flower essence consultation to get the best mix for your dog (btw, flower essence is not the same as essential oils. You can't overdo flower essences, but you can definitely overdo essential oils). I know this may not be possible for you Patti, but since she mentioned it, I figured I should toss it out there. 

Anyhow, that's what I learned. Toss the Rescue Remedy and get something that is concentrated enough to work.


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## Brightelf

Wow, thanks for replying and sharing what you'd learned! In Germany, there are Bach Flower practitioners, but most vets who do alternative stuff (and over there, that's many) swear by homeopathy instead. This surprised me. I've rarely heard of someone's dog or cat improving much on Rescue Remedy, wether for thunderstorm phobia, reactivity, or anything involving lots of energy and stress.

I haven't found a holistic vet in my area yet. Working on that! I'll probably have a regular alopathic vet for most things, as the taxi would be affordable to there... but have a few times a consult with a holistic vet now and again to see if he or she can offer ideas with Traditional Chinese vet med, homeopathy, real Bach Flower essences mixed there or compounded by a trusted source, or see what methods would work for my Grimm best.

Sighh.. I think I could understand this so much better if he were a busy, pacing, unsettled, panting dog in the house, but he's a quiet blob. It's simply that when he sees a trigger, his hyperexcitability suddenly comes out and he himself isn't able to put a damper on it. Unlike truly reactive dogs, there's not even insecurity-- _he can't WAIT _to.... get in the taxi, greet the dog, etc. So, whatever method helps him gain some control over his impulses, ( in addition to our soon-to-begin, lifestyle change into a comprehensive training program) I am open-minded to!


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## jake

bach rescue kinda worked for me and Jake-don't laugh but I used it twice a day and I took it too and at the same time.Made a point of showing the Jakester I was taking it too from same dropper and tried to think positive.It actually worked NOT 100% but did really help.


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## LisaT

I'm not laughing ttall, makes sense to me!


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## csaiz

Patti,
My almost 9 year old rescue BC Spyder is a lot like your Grimm.

With Spyddy its anything that thrown or tossed like a dumbell in competetive obedience at the open level! Spyder has his CDX, and I put an RN on him this summer, he is now retired from competetive obedience. When I have him out in the yard with me by my back pasture he will run along the fenceline trying to get the sheep to move until he would give himself a heart attack or heatstroke! Once he is in the "zone" its next to impossible to get him back on this earth! I have tried 2 different obedience trainers to no avail. The only thing that helps is very structured sheepherding! I found that out by accident when my Kati torn her pads at a clinic and Spyddy jumped in to take up the slack so to speak. My herding instructor was stunned at how well he does when there is direction to his madness. The best I can figure Herding is a new activity to him without any major "baggage" so to speak.
I am just glad that I am not the only one with a "different" dog!

Oh, I forgot, he also beats all the greyhounds and whippets that he lurecourses against!!


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## puppymamma

I wish I had some sheep!


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