# New Law in Hanover, Germany



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I just read an article about a new law in Germany. 

In Germany, if you own a dog, you are being taxed. On top of the tax they want you to register the dog in a central registration (which is kind of weird because you already ARE registered due to insurance and the tax) for 20 Euros once your dog is 6 months of age. 

Now here is the kicker. If you want to buy a dog, any dog... you will now have to pass a written examination and a practical test to demonstrate your skills which is called "Drivers License for Dogs" http://www.nordsee-zeitung.de/nachr...er-kurzen-Leine-_arid,913917.html#sendarticle

Most states, counties etc. already have something similar in place if you want to own one of the banned A-List dogs. 

My aunt used to own an American Staffie when the new BSL law was put in place. . She had to undergo a background check, pass a written examination, the dog had to pass a temperament and obedience test and on top she was taxed out the wazoo and grandfathered in. 

A friend of mine pays over 600 Euros per year in dog tax to keep his Listed Dogs (BSL). 

How do you feel about passing a written and practical test in order to be able to buy a new dog?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really am for less government controls rather than more. 

My problem with the government getting its nose into dog affairs is that we do not elect our legislators on how dog-savy they are, nor should we. 

Who would write this test, who would administer the test? What questions would be asked? And what would the cost be to the government, and then the people? 

I prefer the idea of chipping each dog. Instead of buying a license each year, you buy a lifetime license which is a microchip. If that dog is found abandoned dead or alive, stray, having bit anyone, then you are seriously responsible. Turning a dog over to a shelter would mean losing your license to get another dog for a set time, 2-5 years maybe. 

Not licensing your dog would be a serious fine, $2500. Something major, not the current double the licensing fee. I mean come-on, if I chose not to license my dogs for the last 15 years I would be way ahead -- I have never had animal control visit me for any reason, and they can only check licensing if they visit for a reason, nor have they picked up any of my dogs. I license them because it is the law. But many people do not, because the fine is nothing to worry about. Instead of a $10 license, you have to pay $20, and that gets you licensed and on your way. 

I guess I just do not like the idea of a test created by whom? The humane society? Encompassing what? How to feed, water, train, leash your dog?


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm with Sue on this. Government has far more important things to deal with and honestly, nobody needs them meddling in any more than they already do. Less government.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

** deleted quote removed**

Absolutely, **political comment removed** in Germany and dog laws have become stricter too. It isnt so much about speuter but about education.

The BH has a written part and all the new legislation says, is: if you want to own a dog, you can, BUT you have to educate yourself and pass this test before you do so. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think more government control of anything in any country is really not the best answer. I would give Sue a big ditto.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

That is the *EUROSTANDARD 2010*, the owners of all European countries would have to have it, it is not something new, for the majority of European contries these tests are their ordinary routine. No unwanted pets, no shelters, no strays - that is where we are moving to. Dogs are many, so, weighty tax collection as well...


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It would be interesting to get the test questions, which would give us more of an understanding of what they are doing. It probably wouldn't change my mind, but it would be interesting.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

David Taggart said:


> That is the *EUROSTANDARD 2010*, the owners of all European countries would have to have it, it is not something new, for the majority of European contries these tests are their ordinary routine. No unwanted pets, no shelters, no strays - that is where we are moving to. Dogs are many, so, weighty tax collection as well...


Looking at Spain and Italy, they sure have a long way to go, though. Its not that easy and each state has its own legislation...
Right now, there are tons of unwanted dogs on death row, imported to Germany from Spain and Italy. 
Also, I never had to take the test. It was only for owners with dogs on the bsl list. Hanover is the first place to adopt it for everyone. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the big problem for me is the ones who obey laws are not the problem here. It is like the dog owner on our forum who wants to keep (legally) his intact dog and will be quite responsible about owning it and working with a lawyer to ensure proper compliance. For everyone like him there are scores who just don't care and are not held accountable.

I just wish people were truly held accountable for the actions by their dogs, their kids, their cars etc, instead of trying to force new unenforceable laws on the law abiding. I want my police finding killers and rapists, not checking dog licenses.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

In my opinion, weeding out neglectful and irresponsible dog owners is a good thing. If people can't afford to register their dog, they probably can't afford to take care of it. Its the owner, not society, that should be responsible for looking after their dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As I keep going on about in the pittie threads, it's about all of us being resonsible dog owners. So something to help enforce responsible dog ownership *could* be a good thing...but then once again Jocoyn brings up a valid concern.

We aren't as egalitarian a society as we like to think.

In addition to those who don't care anyways not abiding by the rules, those who do care and try to follow the rules may be priced out of owning certain breeds. 

Just as Mrs K noted how much more expensive it tends to be here to train/compete dogs in IPO and other venues....so will this make dogs more expensive and difficult to own for average law abiding citizens? Good chance it would.....I think.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As I keep going on about in the pittie threads, it's about all of us being resonsible dog owners. So something to help enforce responsible dog ownership *could* be a good thing...but then once again Jocoyn brings up a valid concern.
> 
> We aren't as egalitarian a society as we like to think.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but it is only certain breeds that are more expensive. Pit Bulls, Cane Corso, etc. Those dogs are expensive. In Hessian, you have to pass a background check, dog has to pass a temperament and obedience test and the owner has to pass the drivers license for dogs and pass a written test. That educates the owner. They have to take classes, whether they like it or not. Tax per year is about 200 to 250 bucks. 

They are already going from door to door to enforce registration in most counties and count the dogs to weed out unlicensed dogs. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Metro_Mike (Mar 29, 2013)

I agree with Selzer on adding government controls.

Additional controls will continue to expand like a cancer. What if they limit the number of dogs owners can own on the belief that pack mentality makes these BSL dogs more dangerous? What if special licenses are required for breeding with limit on the number of BSL dogs produced? What about liability that can transfer back to the breeder for civil lawsuits based on faulty temperaments?... 

There are many more things that are dangerous than a dog. People need to be responsible and should be held accountable at an individual level.


----------



## Swifty (May 11, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, but it is only certain breeds that are more expensive. Pit Bulls, Cane Corso, etc. Those dogs are expensive. In Hessian, you have to pass a background check, dog has to pass a temperament and obedience test and the owner has to pass the drivers license for dogs and pass a written test. That educates the owner. They have to take classes, whether they like it or not. Tax per year is about 200 to 250 bucks.
> 
> They are already going from door to door to enforce registration in most counties and count the dogs to weed out unlicensed dogs.


With such a high tax it seems like those breeds will be _de facto_ illegal. I think education and temperament tests might actually be a good thing overall, but marking certain breeds as 'undesirable' is something the government shouldn't be engaged in, imo. It seems to me the temperament test would weed out any dangerous animals anyway, so this bias serves no purpose.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Given that it'll be a revenue source I suspect **if** implemented there won't be too many differentials from breed to breed in the U.S.

....and once 'they' latch onto a revenue source they usually don't let it go.

I'm not sure about interstate commerce either as it compares U.S. to Germany but I think the implementation would be more difficult and costly in the U.S. given geographic size and population numbers compared to much smaller but densely populated Germany.




Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, but it is only certain breeds that are more expensive. Pit Bulls, Cane Corso, etc. Those dogs are expensive. In Hessian, you have to pass a background check, dog has to pass a temperament and obedience test and the owner has to pass the drivers license for dogs and pass a written test. That educates the owner. They have to take classes, whether they like it or not. Tax per year is about 200 to 250 bucks.
> 
> They are already going from door to door to enforce registration in most counties and count the dogs to weed out unlicensed dogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

btw...I'm basing my assumption on all breeds listed as 'dangerous' would be treated equally under this and that such breeds as beagles or mini poodles and such would be exempt...


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I can see registering your dog and paying a small annual fee to support the animal shelter and to ensure rabies vaccinations. In my city and in parks and on trails there are poop bags, and dog parks. So what does a dog owner in Germany get for all the registration and tax fees?

A tax on top of registration is ridiculous. The test and exam is too much. We are not required to have a written test before we have children (although more education could be encouraged). About 10 years ago, the SPCA in my area required that you pay up front when you adopt a dog for 4 training sessions. It's up to you whether you go to them or not, but this was a way for them to get money. So I had to pay when we got our 1st dog, and then the SPCA never scheduled classes. In the least they could have given me a voucher to take to the trainer of my choice, but this is yet another malfunction of govt getting too involved with our lives.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

governments everywhere are broke, surely it is inevitable they are going to be making up all sorts of new novel taxes to try get some cash? given the large dog population seems like a smart idea to rake in some bucks without having to spend anything new on infrastructure.

as far as regulation, the responsible are always paying for the sins of the irresponsible, thats a fact of life, get used to it.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

x11 said:


> governments everywhere are broke, surely it is inevitable they are going to be making up all sorts of new novel taxes to try get some cash? given the large dog population seems like a smart idea to rake in some bucks without having to spend anything new on infrastructure.
> 
> as far as regulation, the responsible are always paying for the sins of the irresponsible, thats a fact of life, get used to it.


Governments are broke, but I doubt the the US government will do anything to want to curb pet ownership, especially if these numbers are accurate. Just keep spending!


U.S. Pet Industry Spending Figures & Future Outlook

The following spending statistics are gathered by APPA from various market reseach sources and are not included in the organization's bi-annual National Pet Owners Survey. 


Total U.S. Pet Industry Expenditures

Year Billion

2013 $55.53 Estimate
2012 $53.33 Actual
2011 $50.96 
2010 $48.35 
2009 $45.5
2008 $43.2
2007 $41.2
2006 $38.5 
2005 $36.3
2004 $34.4
2003 $32.4
2002 $29.5
2001 $28.5
1998 $23
1996 $21
1994 $17 
Estimated 2013 Sales within the U.S. Market

For 2013, it estimated that $55.53 billion will be spent on our pets in the U.S.

Estimated Breakdown: 
Food $21.26 billion 
Supplies/OTC Medicine $13.21 billion
Vet Care $14.21 billion
Live animal purchases $2.31 billion
Pet Services: grooming & boarding $4.54 billion 

Actual Sales within the U.S. Market in 2012
In 2012, $53.33 billion was spent on our pets in the U.S.

Breakdown: 
Food $20.64 billion 
Supplies/OTC Medicine $12.65 billion
Vet Care $13.67 billion
Live animal purchases $2.21 billion
Pet Services: grooming & boarding $4.16 billion 



Data sources and notes 

1. Food total is based on PFI research consultant Davenport Co, BCC, Inc plus Packaged Facts U.S. Pet Market Outlook 2011-2012, and IBISWorld 2012 Pet Food Analysis, Dillon Media February, 2012 trends report and Fountain Agricounsel 2011 - 2012 Situation Analysis Report, BCC 2011 Report on Pet Care Products and Services 

2. Food category includes treats.

3. Supplies based on APPA historical, BCC Research-The Pet Industry, Fountain Agricounsel 2011 - 2012 Situation Analysis, Dillon, Mercanti Group, Pet Product News, Packaged Facts, Dillon Media Pet Industry 2012 Strategic Outlook, IBISWorld Pet Store Analysis 2012.

4. Veterinary care includes routine vet care/prescription meds. It does not include surgical veterinary care. 

5. Veterinary care is based on AVMA, Newsweek, Brakke Consulting, Bain & Co, Fountain Agricounsel 2011-12 Situation Analysis Report, Dillon Media Pet Industry 2012 Strategic Outlook, Packaged Facts Pet Market Outlook 2011-12 and Bayer Veterinary Care Usage Study 2011. 

6. Live Animal purchases based on APPA, Barron's Research, Fountain Agricounsel, Franchise Magazine and Euromonitor estimates 

7. Other Services based on Packaged Facts estimates, LA Times, APPAState of the Industry Report, Newsweek, Dillon Media Trends Report, IBISWorld and Smallbiztrends.com data

8. Other Services include grooming, boarding, training, pet sitting, miscellaneous 

9. Pet insurance figures are included in Veterinary Care



APPA National Pet Owners Survey Statistics: Pet Ownership & Annual Expenses 


According to the 2011-2012 APPA National Pet Owners Survey, 62% of U.S. households own a pet, which equates to 72.9 millions homes

In 1988, the first year the survey was conducted, 56% of U.S. households owned a pet as compared to 62% in 2008

Breakdown of pet ownership in the U.S. according to the 2011-2012 APPA National Pet Owners Survey
Number of U.S. Households that Own a Pet (millions)

Bird 5.7
Cat 38.9
Dog 46.3
Equine 2.4
Freshwater Fish 11.9
Saltwater Fish 0.7
Reptile 4.6
Small Animal 5.0



Total Number of Pets Owned in the U.S. (millions)

Bird 16.2
Cat 86.4
Dog 78.2
Equine 7.9
Freshwater Fish 151.1
Saltwater Fish 8.61
Reptile 13.0
Small Animal 16.0


According to the 2011-2012 APPA National Pet Owners Survey, basic annual expenses for dog and cat owners in dollars include: 

Dogs Cats 
Surgical Vet Visits $407 $425
Routine Vet $248 $219 
Food $254 $220 
Kennel Boarding $274 $166 
Vitamins $95 $43
Travel Expenses $78 $48
Groomer/Grooming Aids $73 $34
Food Treats $70 $41
Toys $43 $21 


**Note: APPA does not ask Survey Participants how much in total they spend on their dog or cats annually. The expenses listed above are not all inclusive and each category was asked separately of the survey participant.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Metro_Mike said:


> I agree with Selzer on adding government controls.
> 
> Additional controls will continue to expand like a cancer. What if they limit the number of dogs owners can own on the belief that pack mentality makes these BSL dogs more dangerous? What if special licenses are required for breeding with limit on the number of BSL dogs produced? What about liability that can transfer back to the breeder for civil lawsuits based on faulty temperaments?...
> 
> There are many more things that are dangerous than a dog. People need to be responsible and should be held accountable at an individual level.


Limiting the numbers you can own is already done in the US. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

True, depends on the communities but most incorporated cities and HOAs and other local entities have limits on the number of dogs a person can own.


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Well, it's ridiculous, to be honest. We have so many laws here in Germany but nobody is actually there to control them.
I live in North Rhine-Westphalia and we have to:

a) pay taxes (and the more dogs you own the more expensive each dog gets! E.g.: 
* If you own one dog you pay 110€/year (~142$)
* If you own two dogs you pay 126,50€/year [each dog!!] (~163$)
* If you own three dogs you pay 143€/year [each dog] (~185$)
Why we have to pay these taxes? No idea... There aren't any "advantages" or things dog owners get for paying these horrendously high taxes!

b) pay for an insurance (of course - the more dogs you have the more expensive it gets...). It's something like:
* one dog - 60€ (~77$)
* two dogs - 100€ (~129$)
* three dogs - 130€ (~168$)etc.

c) register with the office of public order (well, that's for free)
But as soon as your dog's going to be heavier than 20 kgs or bigger than 40 cm, you have to pass a written test to be allowed to take this dog for a walk. And it's not just the owner who hast to do the test... If someone else takes this dog for a walk on a regular basis, this person has to pass the test, too. You can take this test at your vet's office for about 40€ (~52$).

And the best thing is - we got our first dog about ten years ago and nobody has ever controlled anything...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BoTaBe said:


> Well, it's ridiculous, to be honest. We have so many laws here in Germany but nobody is actually there to control them.
> I live in North Rhine-Westphalia and we have to:
> 
> a) pay taxes (and the more dogs you own the more expensive each dog gets! E.g.:
> ...


My god, has it changed that much in recent years? 

Also, the taking for the walk is that so you are able to take your dog off leash? I know in the State where I lived, when a dog has shown less than stellar temperament and they didn't pass the test, you were still able to take them on a walk, you just were not allowed to take the dog off leash.


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> My god, has it changed that much in recent years?
> 
> Also, the taking for the walk is that so you are able to take your dog off leash? I know in the State where I lived, when a dog has shown less than stellar temperament and they didn't pass the test, you were still able to take them on a walk, you just were not allowed to take the dog off leash.


Well, the taxes are different in every state, so it depends where you live. Unfortunately it's pretty expensive to own dogs where we live...

And the test has nothing to do with on or off leash. When you want to take your (or somebody else's dog) for a walk, you are supposed to do this test. It has nothing to do with the dog's temperament or if you take the dog off leash.

In case you own a Stafford, Pit Bull etc. the requirements are even stricter (and the taxes are much higher)...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BoTaBe said:


> Well, the taxes are different in every state, so it depends where you live. Unfortunately it's pretty expensive to own dogs where we live...
> 
> And the test has nothing to do with on or off leash. When you want to take your (or somebody else's dog) for a walk, you are supposed to do this test. It has nothing to do with the dog's temperament or if you take the dog off leash.
> 
> In case you own a Stafford, Pit Bull etc. the requirements are even stricter (and the taxes are much higher)...


Since you compete in Agility, you had to take the BH to do so, right? Are you still obligated to take such a test if you already have the BH on your dog? 

I've lived in Muenster, NRW for six years but didn't own a dog during that time, so I had no idea about the strict law in NRW. 

Baden Wuerttemberg seems to be much more lenient about dog ownership, except if you own a Pit or Staff, Tosa Inu etc.


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> Since you compete in Agility, you had to take the BH to do so, right? Are you still obligated to take such a test if you already have the BH on your dog?
> 
> I've lived in Muenster, NRW for six years but didn't own a dog during that time, so I had no idea about the strict law in NRW.
> 
> Baden Wuerttemberg seems to be much more lenient about dog ownership, except if you own a Pit or Staff, Tosa Inu etc.


Yes, you're right! If you want to compete you have to take the BH. And if you do it for the first time and you haven't done the test before (e.g. at the vet's office) you have to take it on the day of the BH. It's like a theory part before the BH starts. And you have to pass it, but ususally that's not a problem. If you took the test it's "final" and you don't have to do it again (e.g. if you're taking the BH with another dog).
That's how I did it, before taking the BH with my first dog a few years back. 
My mother on the other hand, who takes my dog(s) for a walk when I'm at school/university, had to take the test at our vet's office because only the dog's handler can do the test at the dog club on the day of the BH...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BoTaBe said:


> Yes, you're right! If you want to compete you have to take the BH. And if you do it for the first time and you haven't done the test before (e.g. at the vet's office) you have to take it on the day of the BH. It's like a theory part before the BH starts. And you have to pass it, but ususally that's not a problem. If you took the test it's "final" and you don't have to do it again (e.g. if you're taking the BH with another dog).
> That's how I did it, before taking the BH with my first dog a few years back.
> My mother on the other hand, who takes my dog(s) for a walk when I'm at school/university, had to take the test at our vet's office because only the dog's handler can do the test at the dog club on the day of the BH...


I know about the Theory part of the BH. It's been always like that. However, I've never had to take a test, ever to own, walk or handle dogs and we've lived in BW and Hessen. 

Now the question is, are they truly and really enforcing it or is it just law abiding citizens like you, that follow the law.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Mrs K and BoTaBe,

Prior to these rules and tests (especially as they pertain to Pits, Staffies and such) were there serious and consistent problems occuring with dog bites/attacks which caused the public in Germany in general to demand stricter rules?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes, there were quite a few bad, very bad Pit Bull attacks. We basically have the same issue with Pits, prior to the law, that the US has over here just on a lower level. Low Life Thugs using Pits and making the civil. Pits suddenly snapping and attacking their owners, kids, etc. 

Now in Germany, the Shepherd is actually the one breed that outnumbers every other breed and statistically causes more damage than every other breed. But it is also the most bred, and owned breed there is.


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> Now the question is, are they truly and really enforcing it or is it just law abiding citizens like you, that follow the law.


Honestly, I think most of the sport dog owners do it because they have to but the "family dog owners" mostly don't do it.
Either because they don't want to invest the time and money or they just don't know that they're supposed to do the test. Like I said, I've NEVER heard that someone asked for the certification that one passed the test. Never...



> Prior to these rules and tests (especially as they pertain to Pits, Staffies and such) were there serious and consistent problems occuring with dog bites/attacks which caused the public in Germany in general to demand stricter rules?


No, Pits, Staffs etc. have a "special" regulation (I hope it's the right word...) so these breeds have to pass certain tests to get the permission to walk without muzzle and/or leash. 
There was a case that started this whole thing back in 2000, when two dogs (a Staff and a Pit Bull) killed a child in Hamburg. After that there were certain restrictions for certain breeds (like Staffs, Pit Bulls, Tosa Inus etc.) and they have to do special tests to prove that they're "harmless".

The theory test I was talking about has to be passed by every dog owner that owns a dog heavier than 20 kgs and/or bigger than 40 cms.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BoTaBe said:


> Honestly, I think most of the sport dog owners do it because they have to but the "family dog owners" mostly don't do it.
> Either because they don't want to invest the time and money or they just don't know that they're supposed to do the test. Like I said, I've NEVER heard that someone asked for the certification that one passed the test. Never...
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, there were quite a few cases that pushed the BSL law. It wasn't just one case but that one case you are talking about was the final straw, if I remember correctly. 

I know, where we lived, people were pushing for it, they were fed up with Pit Bulls. However, the pro Pit Bull people always called out the Shepherd people because it is true, the Shepherd, statistically has more bites than any other breed, however the Pit Bull attacks almost always lead to death.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In theory, I'm all for dog owner education, but in practice I don't like stuff like this for many reasons. For one, some of the prices being listed in this thread would pretty much disqualify any working class person from owning dogs. Two, at least in my area the humane society shelters *already* offer plenty of educational material, cheap training classes, and cheap or free vaccine and speuter clinics. Third, the local governments are always broke and cannot afford to maintain our basic infrastructure let alone start new programs like this and pay people to enforce them.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Take heed folks this is what happens when the govt and HS gets involved because they know "best". Lets hope this nonsense stays across the pond were it belongs, Im assuming there is a democracy in Europe so the people there are the authors of their own difficulty. Govt will only get away with what you let it. I personally educate myself on the party or individual I vote for and their policies. Most sheeple dont and in the end they reap what they have sown. 
With freedom comes responsibility without responsibility there can be no freedom (Thatcher) Who chose not to join the EU...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

While I'm *not* fond of more laws and regs either...

Let's be REALLY SUPER clear about something here, it was the PEOPLE of Germany (per Mrs K and BoTaBe who are German) that PUSHED for these laws and the gov't obliged. 

MOST of the laws wrt dog ownership in the U.S. are at *city, county and state level*.

We had one new 'dangerous dog law' passed in GA last year and another in the works this year.

The law passed last year PASSED WITH AN OVERWHELMING BIPARTISAN VOTE because the *MAJORITY of people* are getting fed up with irresponsible dog owners and right now most of the problems are with pitties/bully types.

This is important because understanding WHY laws are being passed helps people understand what the REAL problems are.

The question here is do laws help or would more education help solve some of these problems.





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Take heed folks this is what happens when the govt and HS gets involved because they know "best". Lets hope this nonsense stays across the pond were it belongs, Im assuming there is a democracy in Europe so the people there are the authors of their own difficulty. Govt will only get away with what you let it. I personally educate myself on the party or individual I vote for and their policies. Most sheeple dont and in the end they reap what they have sown.
> With freedom comes responsibility without responsibility there can be no freedom (Thatcher) Who chose not to join the EU...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*sigh* the - but they do it too! - argument.  

Mrs K and BoTaBe,

Do either of you know if the laws have helped reduce serious dog attacks in Germany?



Mrs.K said:


> Actually, there were quite a few cases that pushed the BSL law. It wasn't just one case but that one case you are talking about was the final straw, if I remember correctly.
> 
> I know, where we lived, people were pushing for it, they were fed up with Pit Bulls. However, the pro Pit Bull people always called out the Shepherd people because it is true, the Shepherd, statistically has more bites than any other breed, however the Pit Bull attacks almost always lead to death.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *sigh* the - but they do it too! - argument.
> 
> Mrs K and BoTaBe,
> 
> Do either of you know if the laws have helped reduce serious dog attacks in Germany?


There were a few recent dog attacks with German Shepherds. 

One attack was of two personal protection dogs from a German Hells Angel Boss. The dogs got out and went on a rampage, attacking several people severely. The dogs got shot. 

Another attack was from an actual police dog. The police dog got away and attacked kids on a playground. There was an investigation going on. The handler was seasoned and made a huge mistake. 

Other than that, I have not followed the news as I used to. I think the last Pit Bull attack was late 2012 somehwere around Chemnitz with three injured people. A 20 year old woman took the dog on a walk with her three year old son. The dog attacked the young woman and two men tried to pull him off and got injured in the process. The three year old, luckily, was unharmed. 

I know of another attack in Austria, back in 2012. A guy basically sicked his dog onto two 14 year old Turkish kids. That was horrific.


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *sigh* the - but they do it too! - argument.
> 
> Mrs K and BoTaBe,
> 
> Do either of you know if the laws have helped reduce serious dog attacks in Germany?


I googled and found these statistics for our state ( http://www.umwelt.nrw.de/verbraucherschutz/pdf/hundestatistik_2012.pdf ) 
It basically says that the number of "potentially dangerous dogs" (Pit Bull, Staffs...) decreases from year to year (it's the first graphic in the document) and that the number of bite attacks (including a person's physical injury) were also down in 2012.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BoTaBe said:


> I googled and found these statistics for our state ( http://www.umwelt.nrw.de/verbraucherschutz/pdf/hundestatistik_2012.pdf )
> It basically says that the number of "potentially dangerous dogs" (Pit Bull, Staffs...) decreases from year to year (it's the first graphic in the document) and that the number of bite attacks (including a person's physical injury) were also down in 2012.


That has got to be one of the most thourough statistics I have seen. Very very interesting. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I recently researched the local laws pertaining to domestic dogs where I live because someone on our neighborhood facebook page was uncertain. Based on the laws I uncovered, if one were to follow all of these laws as most of us already do, there would be no dog attacks so I see no need to push for *more* legislation and steeper licensing fees.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Why am I not surprised that the Germans would be good at tracking results and record keeping? 

Danke!



BoTaBe said:


> I googled and found these statistics for our state ( http://www.umwelt.nrw.de/verbraucherschutz/pdf/hundestatistik_2012.pdf )
> It basically says that the number of "potentially dangerous dogs" (Pit Bull, Staffs...) decreases from year to year (it's the first graphic in the document) and that the number of bite attacks (including a person's physical injury) were also down in 2012.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think education would go further, in the U.S., in reducing serious dog bite incidents. 

The problem is people aren't good at equating education with marketing when in fact for this purpose they are one in the same.

Marketing the education means that the message/lesson need to be in the right context and repeated often enough to make a measurable difference.




Liesje said:


> I recently researched the local laws pertaining to domestic dogs where I live because someone on our neighborhood facebook page was uncertain. Based on the laws I uncovered, if one were to follow all of these laws as most of us already do, there would be no dog attacks so I see no need to push for *more* legislation and steeper licensing fees.


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Why am I not surprised that the Germans would be good at tracking results and record keeping?
> 
> Danke!


 Yeah, we're really good at this! 
Bitte!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

You will note that I said the people in Germany are responsible for all the nonsensical laws they have. 
REALLY? Bipartisan support for protecting the public from dangerous dogs?? Show me a politician that would have the knowledge or backbone to oppose that and Ill show you a unicorn. 
There isnt a problem anymore then there was 40 years ago. There will always be idiots, criminals and the uneducated. When you start regulating an entire society based on the actions of the above groups which probably makes up less then 0.5% of the population you are compromising your freedom. More regulation, taxes and redtape is never a good thing but again I stand by what I said. If the local population is too foolish or blind to see that thats their issue. Luckily we in North America for the most part still value the freedom of individuals to do as they please within reason. 
You only have to look at the inflated buerocratic nightmare that is the EU and all the issues they have to see what happens when govt becomes oversized and redundant. Im for intelligent laws that make sense not just the ones that sound good. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> While I'm *not* fond of more laws and regs either...
> 
> Let's be REALLY SUPER clear about something here, it was the PEOPLE of Germany (per Mrs K and BoTaBe who are German) that PUSHED for these laws and the gov't obliged.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's not like we get asked and can vote on it. Some of us still have common sense and a lot of this nonsense many didn't like. 

I am, personally, on the fence with a lot of it. However, right now, most of it doesn't even affect me, since I no longer live there and the laws in North Rhine Westphalia are not the same as in Hessian or Rhineland Palatine. 

It's the same thing. It all depends on the State, County and City law.

The laws that BoTaBe has to live with, I never had to deal with because I lived in Heidelberg which is a different state.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Why am I not surprised that the Germans would be good at tracking results and record keeping?
> 
> Danke!



That's what broke our neck in WWII. :rofl::wild: ... and we still have not learned from it!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You're the one making sweeping socio-political generalizations about the EU, it's people and culture and* different* countries, not I. BTW *Politics is off limits on this forum.* You want some edumication I can send you a link to a couple of forums you might like just let me know I'll PM them to you.

In RED: Look up GA HB 685 and you'll see that sucker flew through even with the conservative no more gubermint types.....what that means is, AT STATE LEVEL the people were telling their ELECTED representatives they wanted something done about dangerous dog attacks.

Now you can disagree with the efficacy of the laws all you want but it is completely disengenious and silly to suggest that this wasn't something the majority of people in GA WANTED done.



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You will note that I said the people in Germany are responsible for all the nonsensical laws they have.
> REALLY? Bipartisan support for protecting the public from dangerous dogs?? Show me a politician that would have the knowledge or backbone to oppose that and Ill show you a unicorn.
> There isnt a problem anymore then there was 40 years ago. There will always be idiots, criminals and the uneducated. When you start regulating an entire society based on the actions of the above groups which probably makes up less then 0.5% of the population you are compromising your freedom. More regulation, taxes and redtape is never a good thing but again I stand by what I said. If the local population is too foolish or blind to see that thats their issue. Luckily we in North America for the most part still value the freedom of individuals to do as they please within reason.
> You only have to look at the inflated buerocratic nightmare that is the EU and all the issues they have to see what happens when govt becomes oversized and redundant. Im for intelligent laws that make sense not just the ones that sound good.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.K. I wasn't sure so it is similiar to the U.S. in that the laws are mostly at the local levels.

Too many times people jump on the it's National (U.S.) level that puts all these laws in place for dog ownership when really the vast majority are county/city/state. People really do have a lot more say at the local level, it requires a little civic action on their part though......




Mrs.K said:


> It's not like we get asked and can vote on it. Some of us still have common sense and a lot of this nonsense many didn't like.
> 
> I am, personally, on the fence with a lot of it. However, right now, most of it doesn't even affect me, since I no longer live there and the laws in North Rhine Westphalia are not the same as in Hessian or Rhineland Palatine.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well now...that's sort-a funny, I just noticed you are a Canadian with a German screen name to boot, eh? 

OOOoooo I could have fun with that but I'm going to be good.

Are any communities in Canada enacting laws regarding 'dangerous breeds'? I know Canada has some strict regs in other areas of their society...





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> <snipped>If the local population is too foolish or blind to see that thats their issue. Luckily we in North America for the most part still value the freedom of individuals to do as they please within reason.
> You only have to look at the inflated buerocratic nightmare that is the EU and all the issues they have to see what happens when govt becomes oversized and redundant. Im for intelligent laws that make sense not just the ones that sound good.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well now...that's sort-a funny, I just noticed you are a Canadian with a German screen name to boot, eh?
> 
> OOOoooo I could have fun with that but I'm going to be good.
> 
> Are any communities in Canada enacting laws regarding 'dangerous breeds'? I know Canada has some strict regs in other areas of their society...


Yes Im a quarter German, and the screen name is my previous dogs call name. Yes, I am Canadian I cannot recall ever saying were I lived was perfect there is BSL in my province but we are not even close to being as regulated as many European countries. My point is that we in North America should avoid travelling down the European path of over regulation, inflated beurocracy, and ultimately the infringment on individual freedoms not limited to but including dog ownership.

Why am I not shocked you pulled some random law passed somewhere in the States? Re read my post I said for the MOST part not entirely. I know very well that there are many people in North America that seem to believe that the Govt should handle everything and regulate every aspect of our personal lives, hence the reason for my post. 
I also happen to know how often BSL is enforced in my neck of the woods, which is to say hardly ever, I see pitts all the time. All the law has done is prevent owners that are interested in abiding by local laws from owning one. In almost all cases the people with the pitts appear less then savory. 

Yes I am making a sweeping generalization about the culture and socio political structure within the EU, it also happens to be for the most part correct..if the shoe fits and all that sort of thing...the law in question we are discussing is but a microcosm of the larger state of affairs that is going on over there. We could get more specific but whats the point.

Again dog attacks are not new they have always happened and will continue to happen as long as we keep dogs. You cant legislate common sense or intelligence. Regulations dreamt up by people that couldnt train or handle a dog out of a wet paper bag are not going to change anything.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I think it's funny when Americans/Canadians pull out their anchestry "I'm quarter German, Italian, Spanish and somewhere in there I've got a noble Englishman."

Born and raised Canadian makes you Canadian and just Canadian. 

Honestly, despite all our regulations, I feel like I've got more freedom in Germany than I've ever had in the US in the past three years. 

I can't walk down the road with a bottle of beer in my hand. To me, being able to do so, that's freedom. 
I can't take my dog off leash, on a bus, into a restaurant, to the farmers market, into general stores, malls, any other public event... to me, being able to do so, that is freedom. 

In some places I'm told how many dogs I can own despite owning my own property. To me that is an infringement on freedom. 
Other places tell me that I have to speuter my dogs. 
That is an infringement on freedom. 

You have more regulations and laws regarding dogs, than we will ever have. 

So what we have a tax to own dogs. So what we have to pass a written test and the BH or Temperament test BUT we can take our dogs on a Bus, into Restaurants, we can take them off leash, go to public events, take them to Malls, Cafes and pretty much anywhere that doesn't have a sign in the window telling us that dogs are not allowed. 

Except for Supermarkets, there is barely a place that bans a dog from entering. 

To be absolutely honest. I take that 150 dollar tax and the written exam and temperament test ANYTIME over all the restrictions in Northern America! 
At least I can take my dog to places, whereas in the United States, dogs are basically banned anywhere and everywhere!


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> I think it's funny when Americans/Canadians pull out their anchestry "I'm quarter German, Italian, Spanish and somewhere in there I've got a noble Englishman."
> 
> Born and raised Canadian makes you Canadian and just Canadian.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I thought the same thing when I spent some time in America a couple of weeks ago. It was so strange that dogs were allowed practically nowhere and that you can't really take them for a walk off leash (at least not like we do here in Germany).
I mean, I wouldn't complain if the taxes were a little lower, but that's just the way it is (unfortunately)...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BoTaBe said:


> Honestly, I thought the same thing when I spent some time in America a couple of weeks ago. It was so strange that dogs were allowed practically nowhere and that you can't really take them for a walk off leash (at least not like we do here in Germany).
> I mean, I wouldn't complain if the taxes were a little lower, but that's just the way it is (unfortunately)...


Exactly, those off leash walks is what I miss the most. The sad thing is, I live as rural as it can get, but it isnt like Germany with all those public unpaved field roads, where you can take your dogs off leash. There are no biking trails in or around the cities. 
I still cannot wrap my mind around how strickt the laws are and that you simply cannot take them along when you go to a Mall or into a Cafe.

People always wonder how we can take our dogs to places and why we have dogs that are behaved in public places... I am not saying all dogs are. We have those "oh dont worry he is friendly" (der tut nix fraktion LOL) in Germany as well. But overall, these regulation have made a difference. 
Of course there are people that will not pay tax, follow the rules, etc. But overall people do, especially those involved in Sport because no matter what you want to compete in, you need the BH to do so. 

Want to compete in RH, Agility, THS, you cant do so without the BH. 
The BH is a must and the national national Standard to compete, and that is why people seem to have less issues in public, with their dogs. It is not only a Temperament test, it is mainly a Companion Dog test.

A dog is not put to sleep as quickly as in the US. If something happens, the dog has to go through a test. If the dog fails, he can no longer go off leash and has to wear a muzzle. In rare occassion the dog is pts' ed.

That being said, some of those Temperament tests are ridiculous...most tests are conducted by the Veterinary Department. It is not the same as Animal Control or Humane Society. Animal Control goes through the Veterinary Department and cannot be compared. It is a different System. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First Gen 100% German American here....but that's neither here nor there.

Ya know Canada is BY FAR more like Germany or really the UK then the U.S. is!

It is worth noting that we don't have a problem with illegal Canadian immigrants flooding over our northern borders to escape extreme destitution and poverty. They just come down to Florida in the winter and cause delays at the Golf Courses!

 

I have some relatives (immigrants from Germany to Canada) and first cousins in Canada, they like to kevetch but I can never get them to move to the U.S. Too chicken LOL!!

BTW Random law my foot. If it's random they YOU PROVE that laws are NOT being passed in many communities and states in the U.S.

I'll not hold my breath awaiting your concise report about how 'random' dangerous dog and BSL laws are in the U.S. 

I will say they do tend to be more prevelant in more densly populated urban/suburban areas so if you pull up one example in a part of North Dakota where cows outnumber the human population that'll be a FAIL. LOL!






Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Yes Im a quarter German, and the screen name is my previous dogs call name. Yes, I am Canadian I cannot recall ever saying were I lived was perfect there is BSL in my province but we are not even close to being as regulated as many European countries. My point is that we in North America should avoid travelling down the European path of over regulation, inflated beurocracy, and ultimately the infringment on individual freedoms not limited to but including dog ownership.
> 
> Why am I not shocked you pulled some random law passed somewhere in the States? Re read my post I said for the MOST part not entirely. I know very well that there are many people in North America that seem to believe that the Govt should handle everything and regulate every aspect of our personal lives, hence the reason for my post.
> I also happen to know how often BSL is enforced in my neck of the woods, which is to say hardly ever, I see pitts all the time. All the law has done is prevent owners that are interested in abiding by local laws from owning one. In almost all cases the people with the pitts appear less then savory.
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's something that a lot of people just can't grasp here, it seems too counter intuitive to them but what you say has a lot of truth. 

Good post.



Mrs.K said:


> I think it's funny when Americans/Canadians pull out their anchestry "I'm quarter German, Italian, Spanish and somewhere in there I've got a noble Englishman."
> 
> Born and raised Canadian makes you Canadian and just Canadian.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

More on topic, wrt the laws and regs in Germany it appears that they are working. The report BoTaBe linked is interesting (I noticed issue with the Presa (dogo) Canario as well...just what we need mastiffs/bully breed crosses...anyhoo)

While the evidence in Germany is indicating that the laws and fees for certain dogs does seem to be curbing serious bites/attacks what works for Germany may not work as well in the U.S.

Culturally, financially and geographically we face more obstacles to that sort of more intensive regulation.

The sheer population numbers in the U.S. The cost of implementation and enforcement would be prohibitive for many communities. Culturally, let's just say an ACO would probably need police back up to do enforcement of the new rules and regs in some urban AND rural areas. 

There's been a mixed bag of laws being passed in the U.S. Some are preventive in nature and some are geared more to severe punishments of owners AFTER an attack has occured. Germany seems to be placing more emphasis on prevention type codes whereas in the U.S. the punish the owner after the fact fits in more with the cultural meme of not 'punishing' law abiding citizens with more taxes and regs.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> More on topic, wrt the laws and regs in Germany it appears that they are working. The report BoTaBe linked is interesting (I noticed issue with the Presa (dogo) Canario as well...just what we need mastiffs/bully breed crosses...anyhoo)
> 
> While the evidence in Germany is indicating that the laws and fees for certain dogs does seem to be curbing serious bites/attacks what works for Germany may not work as well in the U.S.
> 
> ...


That is very true. In Germany you drive +/- 5 hours from one boarder to another, no matter what direction. Where I lived, I had to drive three hours in each direction and I was either in France, Belgium, Austria or Switzerland. 

If I made a 5 hour trip and I was in the Netherlands or all the way down in Schleswig Holstein. 

Here, I'm half an hour away from Canada but if I drive three hours, I'm not even out of State. 

People in Germany forget how HUGE the US is. They can't grasp the concept of Texas being bigger than Germany and that our rules may not work for the US. Heck, I can't grasp that our rules may not work here. It's a totally different system and culture. To me, it's more chaotic than anything else because I cannot grasp how this system has worked so long without people not starting a riot or another civil war, especially when it comes up to the dog laws. 

I can't grasp how ya'll can be happy not being able to take your dogs anywhere and that the only answer, city councils seem to have is to put more and more bans into place. :help:


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are German and your ancestors were German, then you are German whether you live in Germany or not. It doesn't make you an authority on dogs or German Shepherd dogs. It is just a nationality. The US has been called a melting pot, and many of us have been encouraged to remember where we came from. I think that is a good thing. My grandmother came over from Austria Hungary in the early 1900s that maks me 1/4 Hungarian. My grandmother's husband was American rooting back to John Paul Jones, but somewhere there was a English coat of arms, and all that balony, and the name itself is German so the family probably emigrated or immigrated or whatever the difference is to England and set up there before coming to the US. 

My Mom's side is German, Dutch, and some Jewish back there a bit. At least enough to get my Uncle into Podiatry School on a Jewish scholarship. I guess it made sense for him to know his heritage, and not just say, Mom and Pop were born here, I am American. 

My nieces are Guatamalan, but they are Americans. They may not be able to be president ever, but in every other way, they are Americans. But they are also Guatamalan.

Comparing Germany to the US or even to Canada, is kind of like comparing the SV to the AKC. Germany is one country within the European Continent. It's size, bordering countries, nearness to different countries, etc, just makes it not the same when it comes to what laws are implemented and how as it is the US or Canad, which has a lot more land, and different provinces/states which make up their own laws.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> If you are German and your ancestors were German, then you are German whether you live in Germany or not. It doesn't make you an authority on dogs or German Shepherd dogs. It is just a nationality. The US has been called a melting pot, and many of us have been encouraged to remember where we came from. I think that is a good thing. My grandmother came over from Austria Hungary in the early 1900s that maks me 1/4 Hungarian. My grandmother's husband was American rooting back to John Paul Jones, but somewhere there was a English coat of arms, and all that balony, and the name itself is German so the family probably emigrated or immigrated or whatever the difference is to England and set up there before coming to the US.
> 
> My Mom's side is German, Dutch, and some Jewish back there a bit. At least enough to get my Uncle into Podiatry School on a Jewish scholarship. I guess it made sense for him to know his heritage, and not just say, Mom and Pop were born here, I am American.
> 
> ...


Oh gosh, Selzer, really? IT WAS A JOKE. No reason to get all huffed up. And no with Germany it isnt like that. Having anchestors in Germany will not help you. If I so much do as apply for us citizenship I will lose my german citizenship over that. You have to apply for dual citizenship in order to keep the german passport. If I am an american citizen and have kids that makes them american, just like me. My identity will be German but my citizenship and rights as german are no longer existant and my kids will never have the chance to be German either. 

The rules for citizenship in the US are different. Just because you had a grand grand grand grand mother from Germany, that does not make you German. You cannot even comprehend what it means to be German. Your Identity and everything you know is American. 
In order to be German, you have to identify yourself with it.
In order to be American, you have to live and breath and identify yourself with it.
Same with Canada. 
If you canmot identify yourself with a country, rules, culture and lifestyle...even if I should take the American Citizenship one day, I cannot identify myself as American. My identity and what I live and breath and my way of thinking and comprehending things will always be German.

But that is waaaay off topic now!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People who are first generation or even second generation Americans are often raised with the culture of their parents and grandparents. Probably more so than not. There are many, many cultures in the US, that do much the way it was done in the old country. I see nothing wrong with that. My grandmother was German, totally. She was totally different from my Hungarian Grandmother. My mother was raised by a German who was married to someone who was Dutch, and she married the son of a Hungarian immigrant. And his father was the one that goes back to England and before that Germany. We were raised in a Polish/Irish/Italian neighborhood. So we have been exposed to many, many cultures within the main culture. 

To suggest that we no longer have any traits that are German or Hungarian because we were born and raised here, joke or no, is kind of ludicrous. To suggest that people just off the boat cannot be Americans, cannot embrace the new culture and live like their neighbors is also ludicrous. One of my sister's roommates in Indian, and the other is Ukranian, but they are also Americans. 

I do believe that to become a citizen here, you do have to stop being a citizen that you formerly lived in. That makes sense. Whether you are a citizen or not, you are subject to the laws of whatever country you are in.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> If you canmot identify yourself with a country, rules, culture and lifestyle...even if I should take the American Citizenship one day, I cannot identify myself as American. My identity and what I live and breath and my way of thinking and comprehending things will always be German.
> 
> But that is waaaay off topic now!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The elderly German lady at the end of my block has a different opinion. When I initially spoke with her and asked where she was from, she sharply dug into me about being an American for longer than I've been alive. Lol!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My best friend is a lady that was born and raised in Germany. And while she has some relatives over there, she is totally an American. She is an American citizen and raised her children here. And yeah, she has been an American for more years than I have been alive.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> My best friend is a lady that was born and raised in Germany. And while she has some relatives over there, she is totally an American. She is an American citizen and raised her children here. And yeah, she has been an American for more years than I have been alive.


It is all about identity.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> People who are first generation or even second generation Americans are often raised with the culture of their parents and grandparents. Probably more so than not. There are many, many cultures in the US, that do much the way it was done in the old country. I see nothing wrong with that. My grandmother was German, totally. She was totally different from my Hungarian Grandmother. My mother was raised by a German who was married to someone who was Dutch, and she married the son of a Hungarian immigrant. And his father was the one that goes back to England and before that Germany. We were raised in a Polish/Irish/Italian neighborhood. So we have been exposed to many, many cultures within the main culture.
> 
> To suggest that we no longer have any traits that are German or Hungarian because we were born and raised here, joke or no, is kind of ludicrous. To suggest that people just off the boat cannot be Americans, cannot embrace the new culture and live like their neighbors is also ludicrous. One of my sister's roommates in Indian, and the other is Ukranian, but they are also Americans.
> 
> I do believe that to become a citizen here, you do have to stop being a citizen that you formerly lived in. That makes sense. Whether you are a citizen or not, you are subject to the laws of whatever country you are in.


You are as much German as I am American. I have been exposed to the American culture ever since I can think. We have family in Canada. But just because I was exposed to turkish, portugese, american or arabian culture doesnt mean I identify myself with it. The only polish thing I know is a couple of dishes, that does not make me Polish, even though I have Polish blood, 

Identification is and roots is the most important thing we have. Yes it is a melting pot. But let me ask you, can you speak German or traveled to Germany? Do you know how many States there are in Germany and how they are called? Can you comprehend the German way of thinking because you and I butthead all the time. And you would think that someone makes an effort to learn about these thing if they are so interested in it and consider it heritage. 

It is not ludicrous at all. Our country is as much a melting pot as yours. I was one of three Germans in my own School Class. 

First Generation yes. But the US is pretty good in integrating immigrants. That is the beauty about the United States.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way, I always thought I had more American in me than the average German, because of the heavy exposure. Why do you think my english is as good as it is. When you went downtown, there was no German. It was all American. But living here made me realize that I know nothing about the culture, the way Americans think or live. 
Believe me Selzer. There is a difference! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Of course there is a difference. I have not been learning German since grade school, like many foreign countries have their children learning English or other foreign languages. I have learned Spanish, and have no spanish blood in me, nor any country that speaks spanish. My sister speaks German, Hindi, Chinese, Spanish, and others. She has traveled to India, Guatamala, China, and probably other places I can't remember. My brother lived in Germany for 3 or 4 years, and he speaks enough German to get by. My German is limited saying Thank You, If you please(or you're welcome), and I can order beer -- that is better than my Hungarian to be sure. I don't have the gift for language that my sister has. 

Her kids are learning both Spanish and have learned some French, and their Hindi is better than mine. 

One thing though that I have learned from Rhadika is that the perception of Americans from overseas is very different than reality. They get their perception mostly from television, and that is very different. 

As for you and I butting heads. Well, I think Germany is a little bigger than Ohio, and I am sure there are other Ohioans I butt heads with. My best friend would butt heads with you for certain, as her perception of what the German Shepherd is and what it should be is very different from what you say. So I suppose everyone in Germany does not hold the same views about the breed either, else, you would not have German working lines and German showlines, would you?

Maybe it is the German in us, but both of us can be direct and perhaps abrasive at times.

As for your English being as good as it is, well, it is not as good as Radhika's English, and frankly it should be because German and English are both Germanic languages. But I have nothing to say, as your English and Rad's English are both better than my German and Hindi. Maybe if I had been learning it all through school it would be different.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol I just looked at the law, its one of the garden variety ones you can find just about anywhere in the USA or Canada. One of those laws that sounds great and doesnt do much and has next to no impact on the average pet owner.
I fail to see how that compares with intensive taxation based on the amount of dogs owned or the requirement to right some temperment test to own/walk a dog.. I just dont see any similarities.

I also dont see how Canada is similar to Germany, we have much more legislation in common with the USA then any European country with the possible exception of the UK.

I have no issues with consequences to reckless owners actions that result in harm to others. Im all for personal responsibility thats inherent to having freedom. 

Mrs K: As for were Im from, I was explaining my screen name not trying to pretend Im german, I happen to keep track of my ancestry its part of who I am. Whether you find it amusing or not means next to nothing to me. As for off leash law theres lots of space around here I walk my dogs off leash all the time and have always been able to do so regardless of were I live. There are numerous local bylaws in every state, province and county. The vast majority do not impact your average dog owner.

Here is the principal difference between North America and Germany and some other countries in the EU. 

1. No one tells me what kind of collar I can and cant use
2. Taxes on dog ownership are non restrictive and also un enforced most places
3. I dont have to write some random test to own and walk a dog
4. I dont pay more money if I want to own a certain breed of dog because some egghead decided its dangerous


These laws have a direct impact on all dog owners vs local laws that are largly un enforced and do not affect the majority of Joe public dog owner. These laws are generally implaced in order to give the local govt the ability to take action against hoarders, cases of neglect and criminally negligent behavior.

Anyone that thinks these are a great idea have clearly never heard about the slippery slope concept. IMO these laws reflect that they are already almost at the bottom..lol.

Can I take my dog to the mall or into a resteraunt? No do I need to? Why would I want to take my dog into clothing stores and resteraunts? We have acres of parks, forest and walking trails in most urban centres in North America. Plenty of places to walk your dog, there are times and places for everything.
Fyi not sure about the USA but I can take my dogs on local transit as long as they are behaved.

Should the govt be able to control and regulate dogs that have attacked or bitten people? Sure, never said otherwise. Should the state be able to make a mint off me owning a certain number of dogs or force me to write some arbitrary test if I want to own or walk my dog? Not a snowballs chance in ****. If I or my dog make a mistake or endanger others I should be held accountable but otherwise stay out of my business and let me live and do as I please.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In Ohio, the way the law is written, our leash law that is, is worded such that the dog must be under control. You can have your dog off-leash but it has to be under control. 

The evening I was walking Babsy off lead and the cop came running up in the dark, I put my hand on her collar and stopped, and the cop ran on by. It would have been bad if my dog attacked him, but she was under control, and I have often worked her uptown off lead. He came back later an apologized for startling us. He never mentioned anything about her not being on lead. Also people who are hunting do not have to have their dogs on lead. 

I am not sure how NY's leash law is written. 

There are a lot of people in the US that are plain dumb. I am sorry, but there are. Many of these people aren't worried about getting sued because they simply have nothing lose. They do not control their animals, they have nothing to lose, and until their dogs KILL someone, they aren't going to really be held accountable. 

I suggested years ago on here that people who want to own formidable breeds should have to own a house or pay a bond in the event that the dog does do something, and I got my butt whipped down pretty fast on that. I mean, why should some lady be totally disfigured in her face, or some kid be chewed up and terrified of dogs, and their owners get off scott free because they have nothing to take, and are not even all that fussed when the dog is euthanized. But I was told that that would be some form of discrimination.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

selzer said:


> In Ohio, the way the law is written, our leash law that is, is worded such that *the dog must be under control*. You can have your dog off-leash but it has to be under control.
> ...


This is the way the laws are written in a lot of places where I've lived (not that I've lived in that many places).


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

arycrest said:


> This is the way the laws are written in a lot of places where I've lived (not that I've lived in that many places).


Not in our place, sadly. Even on your own property, if not fenced in, the dog has to be leashed. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you go state by state on edgarsnyder.com (dogs bite lawyer website), this is what it says about Ohio:

In Ohio, dogs must be physically confined or restrained or properly leashed and controlled by a person, except in cases where the dog is hunting with its owner or keeper.

And this is what it says about NY:








New York law requires dogs to be confined or restrained at all times.






But this is the Ohio Revised Code:
*955.22 Confining, restraining, debarking dogs; dangerous dog registration certificate.*


(A) As used in this section, "dangerous dog" has the same meaning as in section  955.11 of the Revised Code. 



(B) No owner, keeper, or harborer of any female dog shall permit it to go beyond the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer at any time the dog is in heat unless the dog is properly in leash. 



(C) Except when a dog is lawfully engaged in hunting and accompanied by the owner, keeper, harborer, or handler of the dog, no owner, keeper, or harborer of any dog shall fail at any time to do either of the following: 



(1) Keep the dog physically confined or restrained upon the premises of the owner, keeper, or harborer by a leash, tether, adequate fence, supervision, or secure enclosure to prevent escape; 



(2) Keep the dog under the reasonable control of some person. 


Obviously, the law offices got it wrong. But that's Ohio. NYC has some type of crazy leash law that seems a bit more stringent and those flexi-leads don't qualify unless they are 6' or less. I did not find the state wide leash law in NY, and am not sure there is one.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Most laws like leash laws and dog licensing are local ordinances, not state laws.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In Ohio, it is a state law as is licensing the dog, though each county sets the actual cost of the license. I think localities make noise laws, and breed bans, and limit on the number of pets around here.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I get to have a foot in each culture  . My parents immigrated to the U.S. as adults so they were 'very' German. I was born here but grew up with the mores and sensibilities of my parents.

As it pertains to laws and enforcement of dog ownership laws Germans tend (I use the word tend because of course individuals vary  ) to be more pragmatic about problems in society.

If it is a problem it should be looked over in a logical way, analyzed and then corrective measures taken, usually from the perspective of prevention which is more efficient and less expensive in the long run. If a community is proactive on preventing serious dog attacks the dogs will be more welcome in public areas and cafes and such, natürlich. 

Whereas in the U.S. taking this approach is often viewed as an overreach on individual freedoms. Rather then being a problem to be solved it becomes a moral imperative on preserving freedom. That tends to put an end to a preventative problem solving approach and therefore creates the need to limit exposure to the after affects of liability = restrictions on where dogs can be taken in public. 

Another aspect, speaking of liability, is tolerance of risk. I'm *not* sure about this wrt Germany but in the U.S. we're pretty bipolar about this. In some circumstances we have a very, very low tolerance for risk and in others a very, very high tolerance for risk. (see liability of a kid being bit by a dog vs accidental shooting...agree or not with the 'rightness' of it we really are inconsistent and that's part of the chaos I think Mrs. K is sensing.)


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You still haven't backed up your comment about 'random laws'.

I don't know how it works in Canada but in the U.S. laws regarding dog licenses, leash laws, fees and such are determined primarily at the LOCAL level, city and county, vaccinations such as rabies at the state level. The laws will vary and they usually vary according to population (urban vs rural) and what the communities deem as important. As to laws regarding dog bites/dangerous dogs there has been a trend to state level initiatives but that's not random, that's how our system of government generally works! 

When an elected representative passes a law you agree with it's representative democracy in action, when an elected representative passes a law you don't agree with it's tyranny. 

(btw, I live in the southeast part of the U.S., just in case you didn't know this you live in a soshualist commie country...LOL! Sorry couldn't resist but that's what my neighbors tell me. :laugh: ) Still you know Canada AND Germany have fared much better then the U.S. through these tough economic times...you guys must be doing something right.... Peace, eh?




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol I just looked at the law, its one of the garden variety ones you can find just about anywhere in the USA or Canada. One of those laws that sounds great and doesnt do much and has next to no impact on the average pet owner.
> I fail to see how that compares with intensive taxation based on the amount of dogs owned or the requirement to right some temperment test to own/walk a dog.. I just dont see any similarities.
> 
> I also dont see how Canada is similar to Germany, we have much more legislation in common with the USA then any European country with the possible exception of the UK.
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In blue, mutti und vati's part of Germany. 

Everything in life has a price. The price of the 'slippery slope' argument is that dogs are not allowed in many public places (see blitzkerigs last post).

Frankly many people are happy with that price.

I'm more like you, I wish we would be free more from the price of liability to go more places with our dogs......liability, which is expensive like taxes and fees too.





Mrs.K said:


> That is very true. In Germany you drive +/- 5 hours from one boarder to another, no matter what direction. Where I lived, I had to drive three hours in each direction and I was either in France, Belgium, Austria or Switzerland.
> 
> If I made a 5 hour trip and I was in the Netherlands or all the way down in Schleswig Holstein.
> 
> ...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thats because I assumed the law was similar to the one in Hanover, I know of no similar law in NA hence my statement of the law being random. Upon examination of the law I found it to be the usual run of the mill legislation so therefor I retract the random statement..but once again I dont see it as similar to the Hanover Law. 
Yes, Canada has a good grasp on our finances..the Govt is currently small C conservative and has been for the last 10 years or so, so take from that what you like. We do have some laws that right wingers would view as socialist in nature. Again, I dont happen to like all our laws. I can have an opinion that runs contrary to some of our legislation. 
If laws are passed through representative democracy I dont call them tyranny. I obey them whether I agree with them or not. You will note that I blamed the people in Germany not their govt since I assumed they elected it.
You seem to like the idea of taxation and having to write tests to own a dog. Thats your right but if you ever do end up living under that kind of system i am sure you will find it less ideal than it sounds. The trade off is to take your dog to Cafe's and malls? Not worth it, again we dont live in a tiny country you can get across in 5 hours, there are a million places you can take your dog to walk or run.

You have the right to your opinion and I have right to mine, we are probably not going to agree and thats fine. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> You still haven't backed up your comment about 'random laws'.
> 
> I don't know how it works in Canada but in the U.S. laws regarding dog licenses, leash laws, fees and such are determined primarily at the LOCAL level, city and county, vaccinations such as rabies at the state level. The laws will vary and they usually vary according to population (urban vs rural) and what the communities deem as important. As to laws regarding dog bites/dangerous dogs there has been a trend to state level initiatives but that's not random, that's how our system of government generally works!
> 
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Little c in Canada is way left of center in the U.S. ..... and my invite stands about the political forums, but you better have a tough skin over there.

Of course the German law is different but in some cities in the U.S. taxes (license fees) and county licenses are required. I never meant to imply that we have any very similiar laws as the one Mrs K used to pose her question, to a mostly U.S. audience of what they thought of this. Which of course invites hypotheticals of would this be a good idea for the U.S. (and in your case Canada).

You'll note I have my doubts as to whether it would work here in the U.S. or not.

Your tendancy is to really look at these issues in a one sided way and I'm here to tell ya those slippery slopes have TWO sides (that or they are a flat out logical fallacy because they tend to impute the worst possible outcomes no matter what)....so let's go down that other side, why do we need regulations/rules for dog ownership at all? If you can argue that more 'rules' and laws always lead to over reach on the rights of the dog owners then I can argue that without rules and regs chaos would ensue and feral dogs would be menacing every neighborhood....see cause those slippery slopes don't stop in their rhetorical audacity.

As to your incorrect assumption I tend to look at these things with a wider view. *Everything has a price*. You choose to pay for problems AFTER the fact and accept the limitations that places upon ALL OF US.

Some of us would rather pay less up front to have more freedom with our dogs in general.

The problem here it is very easy to quantify the upfront costs of the German system, right? Go into OMG more taxes vapor lock and that's the end of it?

What is not easily quantified is our after the fact costs of increased liability insurance, ACO time and expenses, cost to maintain shelters with unwanted dogs (due to negiligent owners), negative public perception of dogs leading to less dog friendly places,difficulty finding rental housing that allows dogs and the fact that these costs get placed onto the responsible owners through the liability,inconvenience and costs of it all.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not telling anyone which is the 'right' way to think, but by golly I'm not going to ignore the fact that YOUR way of seeing things *DOES HAVE COSTS TOO* and creates limitations on what we can and cannot do with our dogs as well! 









Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats because I assumed the law was similar to the one in Hanover, I know of no similar law in NA hence my statement of the law being random. Upon examination of the law I found it to be the usual run of the mill legislation so therefor I retract the random statement..but once again I dont see it as similar to the Hanover Law.
> Yes, Canada has a good grasp on our finances..the Govt is currently small C conservative and has been for the last 10 years or so, so take from that what you like. We do have some laws that right wingers would view as socialist in nature. Again, I dont happen to like all our laws. I can have an opinion that runs contrary to some of our legislation.
> If laws are passed through representative democracy I dont call them tyranny. I obey them whether I agree with them or not. You will note that I blamed the people in Germany not their govt since I assumed they elected it.
> You seem to like the idea of taxation and having to write tests to own a dog. Thats your right but if you ever do end up living under that kind of system i am sure you will find it less ideal than it sounds. The trade off is to take your dog to Cafe's and malls? Not worth it, again we dont live in a tiny country you can get across in 5 hours, there are a million places you can take your dog to walk or run.
> ...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I was going to stop..

Im talking about a law passed that affects dog owners, why would I need to go discuss politics on another forum? My interest is dogs not politics in and of itself, I already have opinions in that category other people's opinions wont change mine so why bother?

Im not looking at this in a one sided way, I have looked at both sides and I dont like the other one. For me its black and white not everything is shades of grey.
No I dont propose a state of Anarchy, I support simple laws that make sense and hold people to account for their actions.
I a freedom kind of guy, Im also a responsibility kind of guy.

Ill make it real simple, here is what Im against:
-Laws that are poorly disguised methods of taxation as are most animal liscening laws, especially ones as onerus as the one in question. I mean at least buy me a drink before you know what me.. 

-Laws that have little to do with reality but sound good, feel good, and to the ignorant appear to address the issue (insert BSL here)

-Laws that create UNREASONABLE restrictions on how people live their lives and pursue hapiness. (insert having to write a test so you can walk your dog down the street)

-Laws that presuppose that we are all incompetent and dont know whats best, BUT WAIT the govt does!! These are to my mind the death knell of presonal liberty.

Guess what, the world is a dangerous place, dogs can be dangerous, cats can be dangerous, bears are dangerous, crossing the street is dangerous. People are going to get hurt regardless of what you do. You cant bubble wrap the world, you can only promote personal awareness and *responsibility*. I know its a word that going out of fashion real quick.

Pass these kind of laws and its only a matter of time before you start getting nonsense about what kind of collar you are or are not allowed to put on your dog. SOUND FAMILIAR? What you can and cannot teach your kids. What you can and connot think...etc etc.

Laws are necessary to the orderly running of civilized society.

If your dog bites someone you are responsible and he may be put down.

If you abuse animals you may be banned from keeping any.

No you cant have 15 dogs if your living in a subdivision.

Common sense, realistic simple laws that serve a PURPOSE.

One sign of Govt becoming over inflated, under utilized and incompetent are foolish laws like the regulations in Hanover. 



Thats all Ill be saying on this subject.


Gwenhwyfair said:


> Little c in Canada is way left of center in the U.S. ..... and my invite stands about the political forums, but you better have a tough skin over there.
> 
> Of course the German law is different but in some cities in the U.S. taxes (license fees) and county licenses are required. I never meant to imply that we have any very similiar laws as the one Mrs K used to pose her question, to a mostly U.S. audience of what they thought of this. Which of course invites hypotheticals of would this be a good idea for the U.S. (and in your case Canada).
> 
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In red - Yeah you're trudging around political ideology big time, starting with broad generalizations of other "socialist" countries (EU) as though you didn't live in one yourself (???) to prove that somehow the way you see things is the ONLY way. (??? Which really is odd btw, this coming from a Canadian)

(in blue, obviously!) Clearly your mind is made up and nothing will change it and you would not want to examine this idea from a simple objective pros and cons type of discussion. You are examplifying the 'being right' is more important then actually 'getting it right' type of meme. You latch onto the typical C 'slippery slope' argument and there you will stay. So yes, you should stop, or join a political forum where the discussion can be more frank and open about what _drives_ your_ opinion_ on this topic.

The fact of the matter is THERE are pros, positive aspects to what Hanover and other communities in Germany are doing. That doesn't mean it's perfect or the right solution for everyone but maybe some of the ideas they have would be good for some communities in the U.S. However we can't even get discussions to that point because people just screech on the mental brakes and say....black and white.


The other side of this is your way of thinking definately has negatives, cons to it as well and I've listed several of them previously.

Empirical evidence that doesn't coincide with your 'slippery slope/black and white' POV are simply ignored (see BoTaBe's link showing data that serious dog attacks are down in Germany). It's called getting RESULTS.

REAL life is* rarily *black and white and your opinion isn't going to change that reality.

Yes indeed, you should stop.






Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I was going to stop..
> 
> Im talking about a law passed that affects dog owners, why would I need to go discuss politics on another forum? My interest is dogs not politics in and of itself, I already have opinions in that category other people's opinions wont change mine so why bother?
> 
> ...


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Whereas in the U.S. taking this approach is often viewed as an overreach on individual freedoms. Rather then being a problem to be solved it becomes a moral imperative on preserving freedom. That tends to put an end to a preventative problem solving approach and therefore creates the need to limit exposure to the after affects of liability = restrictions on where dogs can be taken in public.
> 
> Another aspect, speaking of liability, is tolerance of risk. I'm *not* sure about this wrt Germany but in the U.S. we're pretty bipolar about this. In some circumstances we have a very, very low tolerance for risk and in others a very, very high tolerance for risk. (see liability of a kid being bit by a dog vs accidental shooting...agree or not with the 'rightness' of it we really are inconsistent and that's part of the chaos I think Mrs. K is sensing.)


Gwen, I feel your comments on this thread have shown that you are an astute observer of culture. As someone who has lived abroad and in the States, I could not agree more with your analysis.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I get to have a foot in each culture  . My parents immigrated to the U.S. as adults so they were 'very' German. I was born here but grew up with the mores and sensibilities of my parents.
> 
> As it pertains to laws and enforcement of dog ownership laws Germans tend (I use the word tend because of course individuals vary  ) to be more pragmatic about problems in society.
> 
> ...


Yes, that is exactly what it feels like. There is absolutely no rational Order in this country. 

If you want to problem solve or start preventative methods, education etc. It's basically bombarded with "Communists want to take away our freedom." 

But instead, every single day, people infringe on their own freedom because they rather ban something instead of solving the problem. 

It just doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever. 

What has the spay and neuter law in certain counties, to do with Freedom? 
Banning dogs from all public places and events? Some people can't just up and go and drive hours to let their dogs run, or live in a county with less restrictive laws. 

Something needs to happen, but the course that America has taken on dog ownership is absolutely scary. 

Same goes for so many other topics which would lead into politics but just for example, Sex Education is one of them. Same story, different topic. Rather than preventing, let's get it all banned, no matter what it is, so we don't upset anyone or take the freedom away. But by banning something, you take the freedom away from everyone, step by step, bit by bit you are no longer allowed to do something. 

How does that even come close to rational thinking? :help:

I just don't get it. How does banning dogs from events and places solve anything? It doesn't. The problem is still there. Just like our car, it looks nice on the outside but once you open the hood, it's rotten.


----------



## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

I can't help myself. As a German, I like the new law. As a German living in the States, I can understand that this might be difficult to understand for someone who was not brought up in Germany.  

Hey, only in Germany can you find this:









I refuse to translate..... :wub:


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Sitz&Platz said:


> I can't help myself. As a German, I like the new law. As a German living in the States, I can understand that this might be difficult to understand for someone who was not brought up in Germany.
> 
> Hey, only in Germany can you find this:
> 
> ...



LMAO genial!


----------



## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Hilarious! 

I understand why you don't want to translate. Clearly this is an infringement on the rights of Ducks! Okay, have to admit, it is also an example of German's obsession with order : )


----------



## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Sitz&Platz said:


> I can't help myself. As a German, I like the new law. As a German living in the States, I can understand that this might be difficult to understand for someone who was not brought up in Germany.
> 
> Hey, only in Germany can you find this:
> 
> ...


 Wie cool!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LifeofRiley said:


> Hilarious!
> 
> I understand why you don't want to translate. Clearly this is an infringement on the rights of Ducks! Okay, have to admit, it is also an example of German's obsession with order : )


Yup, you've got to have humor and to be able to laught at yourself.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I only had to have help translating the last line! 

(I really need to start on one of my bucket list items and that's learning to speak/read German....my German language skills are not good....  )






Sitz&Platz said:


> I can't help myself. As a German, I like the new law. As a German living in the States, I can understand that this might be difficult to understand for someone who was not brought up in Germany.
> 
> Hey, only in Germany can you find this:
> 
> ...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Mrs K, I have wondered sometimes at how many times you must say to yourself "what?!". You have said many positive things about the U.S. but I could tell from some of your posts you really must scratch your head sometimes and wonder what the heck? I was born here and I still shake my head at how illogical some of our shenanigans are.


The problem is when people cannot accept that things aren't working the way they think they should, they refuse to admit they're wrong. We see this all this time with dog training as matter of example. How many times do people get locked onto only one training method and won't try anything else? 


Evidence and lack of results won't get them to change their minds.


This 'being right' is more important then actually 'getting it right' isn't good.

On a macro level this unwillingness to set realistic goals and achieve them through more logical results oriented processes is really very dangerous for human kind. For some reason we here in the U.S. are more prone to this. Bravado can only carry one so far.....


(btw- I follow macro-econ and the German's aren't above making this mistake too. They are pushing policies that have clearly failed and the supportive econ papers for these policies have been found to have very serious errors and were not peer reviewed < that should never happen! But many in Germany's leadership refuse to accept this, partly because there's been a 'moral' scale applied...not good, Germany is too important to falter like this)


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am sure there are many things where Americans Expats would shake their head about us.

One major thing is to stop and wait at a red light, as pedestrian, when no car is coming. 
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! However, the German's will be prepared when invisible cars are invented. 

My father, one thing he liked as a young man here in the U.S., was he didn't need deal with the red tape and to belong to a club to hunt deer and pheasant. Priorities!

I grew up eating a lot of game meat! 

Most kids, hotdogs, me venison roast made the German way!



Mrs.K said:


> I am sure there are many things where Americans Expats would shake their head about us.
> 
> One major thing is to stop and wait at a red light, as pedestrian, when no car is coming.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Selser said


> Not licensing your dog would be a serious fine, $2500. Something major


That's cruel, lucky your not making the rules. lol

Is there something wrong with me to say a dog doesn't need a licence or a micro chip. It's a dog. It has served us for thousands of years and deserves a bit of recognition and thanks. 

I'm living in euro land and i hope this dog tax doesn't end up here. I'll be making myself a rather big pair of trousers to hide my mutts in.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL! However, the German's will be prepared when invisible cars are invented.
> 
> My father, one thing he liked as a young man here in the U.S., was he didn't need deal with the red tape and to belong to a club to hunt deer and pheasant. Priorities!
> 
> ...


Yeah, once you are done with the hunting license, where I'm from. You probably spent around 10k on it. Registration for the Class itself was around a 1000 Euros. The class was one year and it was some intense training. Especially on Safety and Laws. 

The Hunting License isn't just about shooting. It teaches you a lot more than just that. It's an indepth class about the laws, safety, game, history of hunting etc. but it differs from State to State.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, once you are done with the hunting license, where I'm from. You probably spent around 10k on it. Registration for the Class itself was around a 1000 Euros. The class was one year and it was some intense training. Especially on Safety and Laws.
> 
> The Hunting License isn't just about shooting. It teaches you a lot more than just that. It's an indepth class about the laws, safety, game, history of hunting etc. but it differs from State to State.


Wow, a hunting license in Jefferson, Ohio can be purchased at the grocery store, where you can also purchase a gun, ammo, fishing tackle, a grill, and just about everything else. I love that place. It is about one fifth the size of WalMart, and has more of what you want, and better quality meat. But I digress. 

Anyhow, if you are over 16 or 18, not sure which, you can just buy a license. If you are under 16, the school offers a hunter safety course for those who want to take it. I did. The game warden came in and talked to us for about an hour. All I remember was not to hang a white hankey out of your back pocket if you plan to bend over out in the woods. But then, it's been about 30 years, and I suppose it is pretty remarkable that I remember anything at all from it. 

I heard fishing licenses are up to around $20 these days. Hunting licenses usually costed a little more than fishing license, and deer and turkey tags are extra. But I am pretty sure you could pick up gun, ammo, and license for less than $200-$250 here in town, and maybe a little cheaper up at WalMart.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My parents left Germany in the early 1950s so it probably wasn't as much back then. 

I think this maybe an instance of geography too, LOTS of land to hunt on in the U.S. Germany, not so much, less game too, so they probably have to be more restrictive just from the sheer logistics of X number of hunters on only X amount of land to keep hunting sustainable and safe.



Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, once you are done with the hunting license, where I'm from. You probably spent around 10k on it. Registration for the Class itself was around a 1000 Euros. The class was one year and it was some intense training. Especially on Safety and Laws.
> 
> The Hunting License isn't just about shooting. It teaches you a lot more than just that. It's an indepth class about the laws, safety, game, history of hunting etc. but it differs from State to State.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> Selser said That's cruel, lucky your not making the rules. lol
> 
> Is there something wrong with me to say a dog doesn't need a licence or a micro chip. It's a dog. It has served us for thousands of years and deserves a bit of recognition and thanks.
> 
> I'm living in euro land and i hope this dog tax doesn't end up here. I'll be making myself a rather big pair of trousers to hide my mutts in.


It is not cruel. If you drive without a license they will slap you with a serious fine. It doesn't cost and arm and a leg to license your dogs, here it is $10 or $12 per dog. I pay for five and pay a buck each for extra tags. So it is a little cheaper for me as I have a kennel license. 

Still, I feel that the costs incurred by irresponsible dog owners should be paid by irresponsible dog owners. If dogs are in shelters, they should be funded by irresponsible dog owners, not the general public some of whom do not even own dogs. 

So if everyone paid a life-time licensing fee, with the cost of a chip built in, then when that dog is discovered loose, or abandoned, the proper person can be charged with the crime, and pay a decent fine. And if someone else can't be bothered enough to take a hike to the courthouse and buy a license for his dog, they should sock it to him. 

I guess I am just tired of the price of licenses going up and up and up, and the cost of everything to do with dogs, being landed on the 50% of the dog-owning population that bothers to obey the laws. Cut the price of licensing dogs in half and go after the yayhoos, and bring in more money, by fining them but good. 

Next year there will be a lot more people volunteering to pay their license fees on time. 

As it stands in Ohio, they cannot even come to your door and ask to see your license unless they are called there for some other reason.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> My parents left Germany in the early 1950s so it probably wasn't as much back then.
> 
> I think this maybe an instance of geography too, LOTS of land to hunt on in the U.S. Germany, not so much, less game too, so they probably have to be more restrictive just from the sheer logistics of X number of hunters on only X amount of land to keep hunting sustainable and safe.


Actually, we are quite overrun by razorbacks because there are no natural predators to take care of the numbers. Same with Foxes, etc. 

We have very little wolf numbers, they are slowly coming back though but only in certain parts of Germany. 

It's the overall cost, of buying the rifle, going to the range, paying for shooting lessons, etc. etc. etc. once you are completely done with everything, you've spent probably around 10k on everything.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I had heard about that, same as U.S., some are boar/wild hogs and some feral hogs interbred with boars. 

Still, it stands to reason part of the cost is due to less hunting opportunities for the traditional game (deer, certain fowl) which probably are less in number in Germany due to the much smaller game preserves/land mass and less game biodiversity too.

It would become somewhat of a demand V supply situation.

I know in some areas in the U.S. people are authorized to cull wild boar, no season and fewer restrictions. Perhaps this is an instance where the Germans could take a que from the U.S. and open the hunting up a bit on the razorbacks.

(and as you know, they often use dogs here to hunt hogs, don't know if that is allowed in Germany (yes, no?)



Mrs.K said:


> Actually, we are quite overrun by razorbacks because there are no natural predators to take care of the numbers. Same with Foxes, etc.
> 
> We have very little wolf numbers, they are slowly coming back though but only in certain parts of Germany.
> 
> It's the overall cost, of buying the rifle, going to the range, paying for shooting lessons, etc. etc. etc. once you are completely done with everything, you've spent probably around 10k on everything.


----------

