# Jumping up



## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Anybody got any advice on stopping dogs from jumping up? Whenever my husband or I comes home he goes crazy jumping up. I've tried ignoring him and that makes him jump more. I've also tried rewarding him when all four paws are grounded. That works for the time being but the next time coming in he goes right back to jumping like he's had no training at all. He jumps on my husband more than he jumps on me. If anybody has any suggestions or advice that has worked for you guys please let me know. Thanks in advance!!


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Most GSDs will have the "jumpies" when they first see their master(s) after an absence, either long or short. It's something that you get used to and actually come to enjoy as they're expressing their earnest delight to see you.

It's flattering. Enjoy it and engage in the fun with the dog rubbing him all over and squealing in delight just to see him again. It's a big part of the fun of owning a GSD.

But no one likes the jump up into your face deal. And, it's a bit dangerous, really, as the GSD nose is a battering ram in you face you surely don't need.

I'm sure you'll get some other comments in this thread, but, here's how we broker ours from jumping into our faces. Firstly, we would lightly knee the dog in the chest for jumping into our faces and also scold him with our command of displeasure. Then we'd turn away from him to deprive him of the joy of our company. Hey, it works.

But once in a while he still wants to jump in our faces. So, I've taken to crossing my arms at the wrist in front of me before he jumps (you'll come to understand his body language well enough to predict) and saying Nein (German for no). He then remembers how he shouldn't jump.

LF


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

With my Sting, the ignoring worked, but I had to turn my back. And yes, he would test it by jumping up again, only I ignored that also. When he learned that his jumping up would get no attention, he gradually stopped. It does help to work on an acceptable behavior. I taught Sting to come to my hand when it was held out and to sit. I had a treat in my hand which he got. That way when I saw that look that he was going to jump - I held out my hand - he came and sat and got a reward. I also had him sit before I opened the door and let him out - that helped him to learn to sit when I came home.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks. I'll try that. We have started setting him off for a toy but that only makes him want to play, which brings excitement and more jumping. I will for sure try having him sit and work for a treat. 

I woudn't want to knee him. Hes so funny because when we turn our backs to him he thinks it's a game and runs around to meet us and jumps again. Lol yes the GSD nose to the face! Had that happen many times


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Try teaching the dog a down.......extended downs....running across the yard with the dog and teaching a down where the dog hits the dirt in an instant....something about a well obeyed down will lighten one's load so much in so many instances including the front door parties.....if you so choose. One must be honest to themselves regarding the reception they desire at the front door....faking it doesn't always fool the dog.


SuperG


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Teachin him a down sounds great. We've tried just making him sit, but maybe a down would work better. He probably can sense I don't mind him jumping on me, but I cannot have him jumping up and being rude with guests, especially my four year old niece. So I prefer to not confuse him and just not allow him jumping at all.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Decus.115 said:


> Teachin him a down sounds great. We've tried just making him sit, but maybe a down would work better. He probably can sense I don't mind him jumping on me, but I cannot have him jumping up and being rude with guests, especially my four year old niece. So I prefer to not confuse him and just not allow him jumping at all.



Agreed....no jumping at all ...especially at the front door when you come home or guests arrive. I used to have my dog on prong and lead when company would come over....or better yet I greeted them in the driveway with dog hooked up...seemed like the dog was less excited with the meet and greet in the driveway. That evolved to the inside of house....dog on down/stay and corrected the moment she budged....then when she got her act together..I allowed her up to scent the company but with only enough leash to keep it loose. I would put my foot on the leash on the floor with enough slack so it allowed her a proper posture and a tad more...if she jumped...she basically self corrected by running out slack in the leash...she figured it out soon enough....Yeah...I'm all for exuberant greetings with my dog when I come home but in the beginning, I had to forgo the event in order to create consistency with all guests.

Little humans getting mugged by a GSD when they come into your house is not the best way to go....however...when the nephews and nieces are told not to run away from the dog while screaming...in the backyard...and then persist to do it anyway....well...when the dog runs them down and gives them a hip check and puts them on the ground....I guess it's a " I told ya so" moment. A couple of my nephews and nieces actually think its fun getting herded like that, so I just thank them for being herding participants.....

SuperG


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

I read in Jan Fennel's book, the Dog Listener, to apply the 5 minute rule. That is, when you come in, ignore the dog for 5 minutes. Walk past, do not make eye contact, do not greet, speak or anything. Keep moving, make yourself a cup of tea. Then, when the dog has calmed down, call them to you. She explains it better than I can, but that the gist of it ... and it works.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

He does need time to calm down when we come home. It's kinda become a game for him because the best way to somewhat stop the jumping is to send him after a toy, which just creates excitement. So yeah the 5 minute rule would probably be a good one for him. 

I guess reverting back to the leash when guest arrive would be a good option. I like the idea him correcting himself. Did you use the prong collar for that?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Decus.115 said:


> I like the idea him correcting himself. Did you use the prong collar for that?



I did... don't know if one has to...I would put the collar on a bit different in that particular situation with the lead attachment clip off to the side and slightly downward angling since the direction of the correction would come from underneath rather than above in most all other situations.

The calming down approach worked on one of my previous GSDs ......it was and is my first approach with all 3 I have had. The problem I had with my current GSD was....even if I ignored her and turned from her and went about my business ...I still had a jumping GSD pup tagging along....so I employed the other tactics I mentioned.


SuperG


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Lol sounds like Decus. If I turn my back to him he just follows and continuously jumps or he thinks it's a game and tries to run around me to face me. He's very excitable and trying to get his focus on anything can be a challenge. I'll probably get a prong collar though, that would help more than just jumping up but also pulling on the leash on walks.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Our instructor told us that all of his GSD'S have gone through a jumping phase between 8 and 12 months. Lobo started jumping at 8 months. We tried quite a few techniques but the knee to the chest is what has worked as the best deterrent. Lobo doesn't do it as a greeting; he jumps when we are outside playing (especially when there is snow, that stuff makes him crazy!) Or oddly enough on recall. This jumping habit started in obedience class when I called him to me and he just went crazy!!! It was 3 embarrassing minutes of Lobo jumping, me correcting, and the Other students observing and patiently waiting for class to resume. 

I thought that we had gotten lucky and missed the jumping stage as he hadn't done it since we picked him up at 9 weeks old, however he saved this behavior to use now that he is a hundred pounds and on his back legs, stands as tall as I do  silly dogs


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## DonnaKay (Jan 20, 2014)

Mystique loves to give kisses so had the same problem with jumping. Nothing seemed to work, even turning away just made her more persistent. So I came up with my own solution and invented the "kissy chair". The kissy chair is the end of the couch closest to the doorway. When I get home and she's all excited, jumping up trying to give kisses, I give her the command "kissy chair". She'll race to her spot on the couch, hop up and sit there waiting for her kisses. Now most times she'll race there before I even give the command. Once I take my coat off and get situated, I go in and love her up.

Recently tried this when visiting my mom and it worked! I pointed to the spot where I wanted her to wait, said "kissy chair" and she hopped right up in the chair and waited for her kisses. 

Place command with a cute name.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

He will be 2 in May so it makes sense he's going into this phase. He has just fully recovered from a THR and can now stand on his hind legs FOREVER!! Before he would sort of pop up to say hi but his hips bothered him so much it didn't last. Now that es not in pain I think it's just fun to jump. And yeah even better now that he's as tall as me and can knock me down. I guess that's partly why I worry about kneeing him in the chest. I'm afraid of hurting him or causing him to resent me. 

He loves kissing my mouth so I've started making him sit and once he sits then I come to him and let him kiss like crazy. 

Maybe I just need more practice at these techniques. He's a fast learner but this one is really testing me. It's like he just forgets it all the next day. But I appreciate all of y'all's input!!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> Most GSDs will have the "jumpies" when they first see their master(s) after an absence, either long or short. It's something that you get used to and actually come to enjoy as they're expressing their earnest delight to see you.
> 
> It's flattering. Enjoy it and engage in the fun with the dog rubbing him all over and squealing in delight just to see him again. It's a big part of the fun of owning a GSD.
> 
> ...


This is a personal choice.
My dogs bark and go crazy just before I walk in the house. They are excited but don't need to jump on me... My smaller female is still guilty of this, but she is getting better. My older male is good.

If you reward and entertain the behaviour... Never expect the dog to stop doing it.. It can be avoided if a person does not want this... And this is not the way.

It also begs the question what will the dog do around visitors who might feel uncomfortable? Will you always have to lock the dog away?

I loved jumping dogs on me for many years... Personally I actually like it... But its not really acceptable social behaviour... A dog can be taught not to do this.. And how difficult this is depends on how long you let it happen.

Some strategies I use is wait a bit for them to calm down... Distract them with a command.. eg. sit.. Time the way I walk through the door... i.e. if overly excited I can wait a bit.. And let them jump on the gate before I enter.. Walk and ignore in a manner that does not acknowledge the behaviour.. Or makes it harder for them to jump... Eventually they get the attention they want, when they look at me or sit calmly.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

I did make him wait this evening until he calmed down and had him lie down before coming through the gate, this really seemed to work. He only jumped once instead of thousands of times  
I do agree though I want him to be able to greet friends without being kenneled or locked away. And I surely don't want to pop his nose or knee him. I feel doing this would break his trust in me. 
I'm fairly new to dog training, so I guess after several repetitions and consistency it will click?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Decus.115 said:


> I did make him wait this evening until he calmed down and had him lie down before coming through the gate, this really seemed to work. He only jumped once instead of thousands of times
> I do agree though I want him to be able to greet friends without being kenneled or locked away. And I surely don't want to pop his nose or knee him. I feel doing this would break his trust in me.
> I'm fairly new to dog training, so I guess after several repetitions and consistency it will click?


You implemented a new strategy and got positive results.....roll with it....especially if it complements your mentality of keeping the trust alive.


SuperG


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

I definetly will. Thanks for the advice


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Decus.115 said:


> I did make him wait this evening until he calmed down and had him lie down before coming through the gate, this really seemed to work. He only jumped once instead of thousands of times
> I do agree though I want him to be able to greet friends without being kenneled or locked away. And I surely don't want to pop his nose or knee him. I feel doing this would break his trust in me.
> I'm fairly new to dog training, so I guess after several repetitions and consistency it will click?


Well done on getting results already.

A few more tricks I do all based on this:

I open the gate.. So the dogs could run out... (Don't do this if they may actually get away from you.. Never had a problem myself).. But open slightly... Command that space... If they try run out... Close the gate... On them if need be.. . Just so they know its not going to happen.. (This will also help making dogs not charge and rush out of doorways/gates etc...).. Keep doing this until they relax and don't want to run out of gate to get to where you are..

How does this relate to dog Jumping?

Well if you have done this several times.. When you open the gate and are still outside... The dogs are naturally in a more a relaxed state... They know they cant get to you.. they have already seen you... So their excitement starts dissipating faster.

So now they are waiting for you to enter to get excited again... Well open the gate, again when they are relaxed and sitting... get a feel for their energy..
If they are too riled up.. and feel they will jump.. 

Take a step into the gate.. (half way in, half way out)
Just step out again.. and close the gate... if they are predicting to you that they will jump... 

Eventually the dogs will realise that they can, greet and be happy you are home, and have some fun with you faster and faster the less they jump.

An extra trick is when you get home, don't just ignore... Give them the attention they wanted... Maybe after they comply and don't jump on you have a quick game of tug. (A treat they will never get if they jump on entry to the house)


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lykoz said:


> ... Command that space...


Yes, this is a good exercise..

I would use an entryway or any other narrow passage....it works well when the dog is inside the car and you open the door to let them out...easy space to control the dog's passage.

Dog is on one side of the passage way and you are basically on the other...if you put your dog on a wait...sit/stand/down and you control the dog's passage through the doorway. Dog budges before being released...I would fill the door way with my body and give a "back" and use my legs/knees to stop the dog's progress and move the dog back to it's original position....and start again.....dog holds position for X amount of time...short duration at first ...I would then invite the dog through the entryway...job well done. Increase the dog's "wait" duration as the dog learns as you also need not crowd the doorway with your body...only if the dog attempts to go through before released. Front door, back door and exiting from a car are great places to train as you are guaranteed the dog wants to go through these passageways. Of course having a lead and collar on the dog is important if the dog should get through your blocking attempts.

I agree with Lykoz on the mentality that this exercise tends to mellow the dog or change the dog's frame of mind and can be applied in many other uses than simply having a dog bolt out the front door full of piss and vinegar.

SuperG


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

This makes a lot of sense. I'll work on that with him. He's not too bad at trying to get out of the gate unless he thinks we are going on a "go" then he darts straight for the truck! But making him wait and calm down before even coming through the gate I'm sure help a lot with his jumping as it seems to mainly be from excitement from not seeing us all day. He doesn't jump much when we've been home all day.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Decus.115 said:


> This makes a lot of sense. I'll work on that with him. He's not too bad at trying to get out of the gate unless he thinks we are going on a "go" then he darts straight for the truck! But making him wait and calm down before even coming through the gate I'm sure help a lot with his jumping as it seems to mainly be from excitement from not seeing us all day. He doesn't jump much when we've been home all day.


Well its great that he is already trained not to run through the gate.

What the gate provides for you essentially. Is not only a way to calm down the dog.

But also an opportunity or a barrier between you and the dogs ability to physically jump on you..

Any behaviour that the dogs does repeatedly, and enjoys.. The dog becomes conditioned to do it more, and more...

So with the gate between you... You create a situation where the dog cant be conditioned to the behaviour you don't want. 

So you are one step through the gate... The dog pre-loads to jump on you... Quickly step back.. close the gate... He ends up maybe jumping on the gate...

Then you can make fakes... Where you open the gate slightly... and close again... So the dog can not predict when you will be entering.. So the dog gets frustrated.. and bored.. I mean how many times is the dog going to jump into air, not achieving, his intended purpose? He will probably give up on it eventually. Or substitute the behaviour, with just jumping on the gate.. Dogs like us, dont really like being unsuccesful in what they are trying to do... I think they also get frustrated. This is a time to frustrate them a little bit  (caution don't make it too fun, you want to suck the dogs drive to jump on you right out of him... Not a situation where he enjoys it. He can enjoy you, when he does not jump on you )


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Or you could avoid all that silly stuff and avoid teaching incompatible behaviors or alternative behaviors which are unlikely to work when the dog gets super excited anyway and just punish the dog for jumping on you. When the dog comes to get attention in a sensible way then reward with petting and attention.

Dogs don't jump on cactuses. Why? Because they don't like the end result. Don't want a dog jumping on you? Be a cactus.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Be a cactus.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

I don't want him looking at me as a source of discomfort. I simply want to stop the behavior, but I don't want to cause him pain. I mean it makes sense to make jumping uncomfortable but at the same time I want him knowing coming to me is a good thing not bad. My husband has tried popping his nose (which I hate) and he only thinks it's a game and jumps more also trying to mouth his hand. 

I do like what Lykoz is saying about the gate and making a barrier. Once he calms down he's better anyway. And he did even better today than yesterday. I think we just let him get away with it too long without correcting him that now he sees it as acceptable behavior it's just taking longer to reverse it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I never said cause him discomfort every time he comes up to you. Only when he jumps and the jumping isn't invited. If the dog jumps cactus. If the dog doesn't jump, you are a flower.

Want to make a clear message? Dog jumps on you the second he jumps you say no and jab him in the ribs with your thumb till he puts all four feet back on the ground. When he does come down after a few seconds of not jumping you say good and pet and praise and then stand right back up rigid again. If he jumps again no and poke. If he doesn't after a few seconds you come right back down and pet and praise again. 

Dogs jump on us usually because they want attention. Ultimately you your friends or family members created the jumping in the first place because you reinforced it somehow by giving the dog something it wanted and it became advantageous for the dog to do it.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I never said cause him discomfort every time he comes up to you. Only when he jumps and the jumping isn't invited. If the dog jumps cactus. If the dog doesn't jump, you are a flower.
> 
> Want to make a clear message? Dog jumps on you the second he jumps you say no and jab him in the ribs with your thumb till he puts all four feet back on the ground. When he does come down after a few seconds of not jumping you say good and pet and praise and then stand right back up rigid again. If he jumps again no and poke. If he doesn't after a few seconds you come right back down and pet and praise again.
> 
> Dogs jump on us usually because they want attention. Ultimately you your friends or family members created the jumping in the first place because you reinforced it somehow by giving the dog something it wanted and it became advantageous for the dog to do it.


I tried all this before... Dog did not get it...
I wasn't prepared to hit harder to make him 'get it'.

I am not saying it does not work.. Each dog is different. Each owner is different.
Personally I got more results from the methods I described, than by being a cactus.
A bit of everything can work..

You could use both methods.. for Maximum benefit and less cactasing...

Bruce Lee is unimpressed with Cactasus.

Bruce Lee says: Be Water my friend.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If it didn't work for you it was because you did it wrong. Something was wrong with your technique or your timing or you sent mixed messages by not separating the punishment event from the positive reinforcement and it ended up being more of a Nepopo thing where the dog saw it as negative reinforcement to signal positive reinforcement. This isn't something that should take a long time. It should be 90% done the first day.

Punishment done right isn't about intensity so much as it is about proper procedure in that the information of what is right and wrong is presented clearly.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Baillif said:


> If it didn't work for you it was because you did it wrong. Something was wrong with your technique or your timing or you sent mixed messages by not separating the punishment event from the positive reinforcement and it ended up being more of a Nepopo thing where the dog saw it as negative reinforcement to signal positive reinforcement. This isn't something that should take a long time. It should be 90% done the first day.
> 
> Punishment done right isn't about intensity so much as it is about proper procedure in that the information of what is right and wrong is presented clearly.


Ridiculous... I think I did it quite right... Certainly did everything you described, with many more considerations.

If i did not do it properly I wonder how the OP will get it 'right' with the information: "Be a cactus"... Leaves a lot to the imagination.. And your subsequent explanation was hardly in depth, to get an idea...

"A dogs paws cant hit what the eyes can't see"... Muhammed "doggie" Ali.
"float like a butterfly..." "sting like a bee" (stinging may not be required... Not trying to knock anybody out.. Just trying not to get hit...)

"Notice that the stiffest tree is easily cracked whilst the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind" - Bruce Lee.

With regards to becoming a cactus... Do you really want to be a cactus to your dog?
"As you think so you will become" - Bruce Lee

"Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. "

The fundamental flaw with your training method is that you require the dog to jump on you... In order to teach it not to... Through rigid force...

Other ways can make it a non-issue. I am not saying move like Ali.. That will excite the dog... I am saying position yourself in such a way that the dog cant see or is impossible for the dog to jump on you. Reward behaviours you like.

why do you insist on JUMPING to corrections without showing or explaining how things work to the dog first... 
Especially as advice to somebody who does not have experience with using corrections correctly.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Because rewarding alternative behaviors or incompatible behaviors doesn't teach the dog what NOT to do.

For example let's say it is my goal to get you to stop speaking English. I could teach you French and reward you for speaking French but that doesn't mean you won't speak English. If I want to get that I have to disincentivize or punish you for speaking English at some point.

When it comes to dog jumping you don't need to teach a dog an alternative to not jumping as they already know behaviors that dont involve jumping on people like putting all four feet on the ground for instance. All dogs that I know of that have all their limbs know this behavior. All that remains is to disincentivize the jumping. You don't need to teach touch buckets or baby gates or sits or long downs. You can't really accomplish those with a high degree of accuracy in real world conditions with most dogs without using aversives at some point anyway.

Besides I know you didn't do it right. You say you punished your dog? Not according to science you didn't as in order for it to be considered punishment there had to be a reduction in the target behavior.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong but a dog in a excited state of mind is harder to train? Don't they need to be calm submissive in order to get my point across to him? Dispite my feelings on it my husband has "been a cactus" and caused discomfort to the dog upon jumping and he thought it was a game thus jumping more. The best way I've found to encourage all four paws on the ground is to get him calm and have him sit. Once he's able to focus and listen he's been much better. 

I do understand your point but I'm not wishing to inflict any pain or discomfort on him to train him. 

I don't have much experience in training dogs but I have extensive experience training horses and from that I know if you train a horse out of fear you have a potential for an outburst and explosion because that horse has no trust in you. Wouldn't be the same for dogs? I'd rather my animals do what I ask because they trust my judgement rather than because they are afraid of me. 

We never have encouraged the jumping behavior, he just never really did because of his severe hip dysplasia. Now that his hips are fixed he's discovered he can get closer by jumping on us.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Because rewarding alternative behaviors or incompatible behaviors doesn't teach the dog what NOT to do.
> 
> For example let's say it is my goal to get you to stop speaking English. I could teach you French and reward you for speaking French but that doesn't mean you won't speak English. If I want to get that I have to disincentivize or punish you for speaking English at some point.
> 
> ...


Like I said... It was not working because the dog was too happy and wanted to jump on me... The Correction had to be stronger... And I didn't want to up the intensity. So yes... like I said... in my post, my correction was not severe enough for that particular dog. However if I used that same intensity on you... Trust me you would complain.. And possibly take me to court... I didn't want to up the intensity on that dog. 

There are many other ways to deal with this situation. My way is replicable for a begginer.. Easy to do.. And she is seeing results. Your way may need more advanced training knowledge..
It is not as replicable... And things can go wrong, if you do it wrong..

I make it a point to post training advice that can not effect the dog negatively... Are there better ways? Im sure there are...
But you would have to go into a lot of training theory, and refinement in order to make them work.

As for alternative behaviours.. Well that's not my intention. It can however happen, and I just mentioned it could happen...

To be honest I didnt really teach an alternative behaviour.. Because coming into my house, the dogs naturally jumped on the gate before I did anything anyways. I never actually rewarded them jumping on the gate... And frankly I like that they jump on the gate... Its a security thing... People get intimidated, walking past. Not many poeple will go inside.. even though my dogs would never attack anyone..
I think my posts are pretty clear on that.

This is a case of trying to break down everything I said.
I am dealing with the very essence of your posts, and you are trying to find flaws in little sentences here and there.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Decus,you're doing great!Continue to train with whatever method is effective and feels right to you.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm kind of reading between the lines here but will express my ignorance anyways....I'm used to it. Regarding Baliff's approach... my dog no longer jumped on me using my method of restricted leash and prong pressure from underneath the dog which essentially was the same as being a "cactus" as the prong collar would tighten only because the dog attempted to jump up...the correction was self induced by the dog's actions, starting and ceasing instantly based on the dog's behavior...the dog figured it out rather quickly. I never once felt I was punishing the dog for jumping....just simply giving the dog a better option.


SuperG


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I totally get the approach that Bailiff is suggesting and it absolutely does work when done correctly and consistently.. 

Pretty much pet dog training 101!! Correct for the negative and or unwanted behavior and then reward when the dog is correct..


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Thank you dogma. I'm still learning but it's working  

The leash method to me doesn't seem as harsh because in the dogs eyes he's causing the pressure or discomfort by jumping. It's not me being the source of the discomfort. Does that make sense to just me? Lol. Maybe I'm looking at it from a horse trainer perspective, horses as prey animals look at the source of pain (me if I am a cactus) and stay away from it. Maybe dogs approach it differently.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If all you ever did is punish your dog then yes he would avoid you. If you were loving and great to your dog and only punished when the dog performed a certain action and it was clear then the dog just avoids that action.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ok I can see that, it makes sense.  
Thank you for clarifying.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think it's good to be flexible as you train and solve problems as they come up.As many posters say "have lots of tools in the tool box".Depending on your dog's temperament,one approach may be ineffective while another may achieve your goal.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

True. I agree, he has an extremely high pain tolerance so to make him uncomfortable enough to stop a behavior is to an extreme I'm not comfortable with at the moment if other measures work just fine. I believe all the methods work around the board. Giving him another job to so other than jumping & him understanding he has to chill and lay down has been working pretty good so far.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMHO as someone who has struggled with what Baillif is explaining, the two problems most dog owners have is timing and intensity when being the cactus.

I struggle with it because my motor skills are kind of sucky to begin with. Also I have not trained a lot of dogs.

When I worked with horses it was through observation, practice, muscle memory and working with many horses that I improved my skills of communication with them.

You learn to read and respond to dogs (and horses) more appropriately with actual practice. 

Baillif when working with people and their pets do you find that they tend to be too slow? That's been my experience and observations of others as well.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The biggest issue I've seen wasn't necessarily the timing. People have a tendency to try to hold the dog down to keep it from coming up. What that ends up doing is building drive for the dog to jump. 

The other thing they do is they tend to poke or "correct" and at the same time or immediately after pet the dog and that is a huge mixed message. Often times they don't even realize they are doing it until you point it out. Even after you point it out some people end up doing it again.

Many people are inconsistent because the dog will jump on them and they'll miss the event entirely. The biggest issue is when the dog jumps on someone else and they either miss it or fail to correct it. 

Inconsistency ends up being the biggest failure rather than timing I think. Even if your timing was on the bad side if you were super consistent the dog would eventually make the connection between the behavior and the punishment and learn. Get inconsistent though, and you're basically confusing and abusing your dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah yeah yeah that makes sense, holding the dog down. That's similiar to the restrained recall exercises we did to build the dogs desire to b-line to the handler!

Thanks I will be keeping this in mind when working with my dogs. 




Baillif said:


> The biggest issue I've seen wasn't necessarily the timing. People have a tendency to try to hold the dog down to keep it from coming up. What that ends up doing is building drive for the dog to jump.
> 
> The other thing they do is they tend to poke or "correct" and at the same time or immediately after pet the dog and that is a huge mixed message. Often times they don't even realize they are doing it until you point it out. Even after you point it out some people end up doing it again.
> 
> ...


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Inconsistency ends up being the biggest failure rather than timing I think. Even if your timing was on the bad side if you were super consistent the dog would eventually make the connection between the behavior and the punishment and learn. Get inconsistent though, and you're basically confusing and abusing your dog.


Amen to this! 

Continue on with your conversations...


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I was very consistent...
No one technique works without fail...

there are a lot of considerations.
I was not against his approach... In fact i use it.. But i got much better results with the other considerations on that specific dog.

My point was to be WATER! as bruce lee states.. Not a porcupine or a cactus.

This whole argument started when he said the rest was nonsense...

IMO... Many people's problem is they are spoon-fed by trainers and cant apply the trainers recommendation past a certain dog...
The trainer coaches them to handle that specific dog... And that is it. They never think for themselves.
The trainers train them to deal with "Their" dog...
Instead of educating them on the why...

Today I strongly believe that pet dogs should always be not put in situations where they can AVOID being corrected in the first place...

Corrections are necessary for refinement... But it should never be a FIRST approach.. Not for pet dogs... Doing corrections wrong can influence your relationship with your dog.. So its not a good first recommendation.

Those that do use corrections as a "first approach"... Need to be very well schooled in their training methodology... Because things can go very wrong...

Its these type of people who end up with an aggressive dog and then say: "Sometimes the dog just goes nuts"...Nonsense... Dogs rarely go Nuts without some sort of thing you did for them to lose it... It could have even been pushing protection training, when the dog just wasn't meant to be doing it. 


No the dog is not going nuts... It is you always using corrections as a first line of action...

As he said you correct the dogs and a few things and be nice on the rest...

Well if corrections is your first way to deal with every problem... That creates a situation where you are correcting an awful lot... And can end up with a reactive dog... And a weakened relationship. ESPECIALLY when giving advice to a new dog owner!!! They start seeing every solution as a 'correction'.

I am not perfect... My dogs certainly are not perfect...

But one problem I have never had is an aggressive dog towards me.. (Something not even police/IPO handlers can say... Even with there flawless form and advanced training)
Also the dogs are happy...

People get so overhauled with having perfect technique and style.. And the most effective/fast down etc.... 

They sometimes forget the dog is a member of the family too..

Do the work... Then correct... The other way round just does not make sense for a pet dog.

Do both... do it all.. By why not make at least an attempt to avert the behaviour.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The problem with most pet owners (in general not referring to you Lykoz) is by the time they get to a trainer they've already allowed or unintentionally established bad behavior in their dogs. Sometimes it's the adult rescue who came to them that way and sometimes it's because they haven't shaped their puppies behavior properly and allowed it to progress.

Once you have a dog with established habits the training paradigm shifts.

Naturally this should be adjusted according to the individual dogs temperament and good trainers do that.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Well if corrections is your first way to deal with every problem... That creates a situation where you are correcting an awful lot... And can end up with a reactive dog...


I don't think people are talking about correcting your dog for every problem.. Just one that has to do with this thread.. Jumping up on people.. And it can be a serious problem where someone can get seriously injured.. But hey, obviously, folks are free to train their dogs the way they like.. 

The rest of your post is just interesting.. Makes me go


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Lykoz I do agree with the things you said. I also know from training horses that the correction has to be immediate, so I do feel I would be capable of correcting that way if need be. I just don't feel I'm there yet. And yes I don't want to over do it and cause aggression when it's not needed. 

What do y'all suggest as far as a trainer? Should I be seeking out a trainer for further assistance? I've done all his obedience training myself. However he does have trouble focusing. Where would I even start in looking for a good trainer?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Re getting a trainer, it depends. If you aren't getting results you want after a couple three weeks of trying probably best to seek help.

In my experience finding a trainer that isn't locked down into PO training only will be your best bet. 

Honestly the best dog trainers I've run across are or have been involved in bite sport and roughly follow the Micheal Ellis school of training. When I started learning from these trainers (and practicing) what they taught me the improvements in my dogs OB and behaviors like you are discussing improved by leaps and bounds. They were 90% positive and taught the use of corrections with prong collars judiciously. IMO if you can find that sort of trainer you'll get the jumping up problem fixed in very short order.

Like one of my horse trainers said during a clinic (dressage) to a Rider being unclear with her aids, "if you nag your husband like you nag the horse you will be divorced!" 

Be clear, be consistent, get it over with and move on, better for the dog and the human. Good luck! 




Decus.115 said:


> Lykoz I do agree with the things you said. I also know from training horses that the correction has to be immediate, so I do feel I would be capable of correcting that way if need be. I just don't feel I'm there yet. And yes I don't want to over do it and cause aggression when it's not needed.
> 
> What do y'all suggest as far as a trainer?* Should I be seeking out a trainer for further assistance*? I've done all his obedience training myself. However he does have trouble focusing. Where would I even start in looking for a good trainer?


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair...I will keep that in mind. If and when I ever need a trainer. Thank you for all the positive advice and tips.  

I've also heard that saying about nagging! So true!!  lol


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

....dressage trainers can be a rough bunch. Poor lady started crying! 

Keep us posted please.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Poor thing! Yes they can! Same with hunter/jumper!

I will for sure keep you updated. In fact he didn't jump on me once today...he actually laid down on his own as I was approaching the gate and before I gave the command...now let's see what happens since I said that!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Haha, yes dogs, kids and horses will make liars out of us. 

Famous final words.

Sounds like good progress though!


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks. He's a good boy, I wouldn't trade him even if he always jumps! Lol


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks. He's a good boy, I wouldn't trade him even if he always jumps! Lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wow this is still going on?? OK put me in the knee camp. Boxer tested Boxer approved. A GSD is a big slow moving target next to those guys! 

Dog jumps up I lift my knee, dog lands on knee. She got the message real quick, works on the neighbors untrained dogs. That dog sits for me and I never said a word!

But... while it will stop a dog from jumping on you! It takes a bit to to translate it to not jumping on others! This same Boxer use to humiliate my friend, when he tried!

If your timing is off...it's just a new and exciting game! So the knee thing doesn't work if your not agile!  

But eventually they soon "assume" if it happens when they jump on you...then it will happen when they jump on anyone!

So that took the pressure off my friend!


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

The kneeing doesn't work. Even with the right timing. He thought it was a game and jumped more. And it only took two days. He didn't jump at all on anyone yesterday, not just me but everyone he encountered.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Decus.115 said:


> The kneeing doesn't work. Even with the right timing. He thought it was a game and jumped more. And it only took two days. He didn't jump at all on anyone yesterday, not just me but everyone he encountered.


I'm sorry please disregard my last message. I can't find a way to edit & my phone auto corrected and froze up. I intended to say:

I've never personally tried kneeing him so maybe your right. Maybe it is the timing, because he does think it's a game . But I'm looking for something that stops the behavior & I don't want to tell anyone that comes to my house to knee my dog. I'm making progress even if it's slow. 

I think it's like somebody already said. It was the inconsistency that caused a lot of trouble. I'd work with him and others would allow him to jump up. Now that everyone is on the same page he's getting it pretty quick.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Re getting a trainer, it depends. If you aren't getting results you want after a couple three weeks of trying probably best to seek help.
> 
> In my experience finding a trainer that isn't locked down into PO training only will be your best bet.
> 
> ...


Yep exactly this...

The guys from a dog sport background are usually the best and most knowledgeable to follow.
However a word of caution. You can also go very wrong with them...

You really need to find somebody who is more targeted and focused on PET dogs... (Now that is a hard thing to do, when most trainers involved only with pet dogs are all positives..)

They understand there is a huge a difference. And are not obsessed with competition or Reality based protection exclusively.

Michael Ellis as Gwen mentions, is the perfect trainer for this.
He is one of the few guys who gets it. So anyone who somehow follows this philosophy..

Before the Sport/Reality based guys jump on this... For your purposes sure you can find somebody better for YOUR purposes.... I would not know...
I am talking about pet dogs now.

Everything he teaches is replicable and directly associated with pet dog training.


This is the philosophy I personally ascribe to... And I don't think anyone has done a better job in making his competition training process more suited for pet dogs. 

All positives more famous trainers like stillwell/Zack George etc... Are frankly clueless. Don't get stuck in those schools of thought.





Watch that video.. If you can find a trainer that thinks along those lines +/- great.
Some great videos here too:
The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers

If you want to take charge of your own education, online with some very informative basic obedience courses at affordable prices that allow you to think critically and apply to your dogs. That are all coherent to Michael Ellis' style of training message me..

If you want to employ a trainer, I would try follow somebody with the Ellis style of thinking. (Much harder than one would expect). Every trainer is different...
But I think the basic philosophy of 'teach the dog 100% of what it needs to do' - 'then correct if it choses to ignore' is the way to go for PET dogs.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't like the idea of kneeing either, for a few reasons, one of which is unintentional but serious injury to the dogs tender abdomen area. 





Decus.115 said:


> I'm sorry please disregard my last message. I can't find a way to edit & my phone auto corrected and froze up. I intended to say:
> 
> I've never personally tried kneeing him so maybe your right. Maybe it is the timing, because he does think it's a game . But I'm looking for something that stops the behavior & I don't want to tell anyone that comes to my house to knee my dog. I'm making progress even if it's slow.
> 
> I think it's like somebody already said. It was the inconsistency that caused a lot of trouble. I'd work with him and others would allow him to jump up. Now that everyone is on the same page he's getting it pretty quick.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ellis is not the God of dog training


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well as I said..not everyone can do it! But to clear up a misconception...this is not UDF (Ultimate Dog Fighting)! Your not grabbing the dog by the back of his neck and driving your knee into his chest!

As I said or did I? I can stop friends and neighbors untrained obnoxious dogs from jumping on me, pretty much inside of 30 secs! The owners never see anything happen...the dog does... an unexpected knee once or twice and they sit politely and wait for my attention!

Here is a much more 'Wordie" explanation: Stopping Dogs From Jumping and Why the Knee Method Works

But I'm not trying to win converts just explaining a very likely, old concept.

This is something I just found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFscKdfpQWA

To touchy feely for me but it might work well for some?


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well as I said..not everyone can do it! But to clear up a misconception...this is not UDF (Ultimate Dog Fighting)! Your not grabbing the dog by the back of his neck and driving your knee into his chest!
> 
> As I said or did I? I can stop friends and neighbors untrained obnoxious dogs from jumping on me, pretty much inside of 30 secs! The owners never see anything happen...the dog does... an unexpected knee once or twice and they sit politely and wait for my attention!
> 
> ...



Ok so as a first line technique the guy in the video intentionally calls the dog up so he can intentionally hurt it...

Dont know if you noticed the dog is reluctant to jump up... And he is growling and trying to nip at him... But is afraid of him..

Now look at Ellis' approach... 

I figured my own original ways to deal with the situation. But it's based on the same line of thinking.

Ellis is always don't allow behaviour avert/divert positively enforce your changes... And then correct when the dog understands it is wrong...

As we saw from OP... Her dog was getting the non-punishment advice we were giving her.. Then a commenter just popped up and said nonesence.. Just knee him in the chest... (Something hard to control on a moving dog, whilst you are one leg, especially if dog is rilled up and commited to behaviour... I would even go so far as to say, if you are going to knee the dog in the chest... all the prior advice I gave, would help you to control the intensity of the jump... If the dog is strong and going full throttle, you can easily fall over on one leg.. Lift your knee too fast and catch the dog wrong... Or even clip the dog on the chin for a nice big UFC style KO shot...)






You can see the difference in maturity... Both videos are professionals...
As you can see..

One is a shinning star... Other guy well (quoted video).. He sort of gets the job done. Note the beginnings of an unhappy growling dog.. Asked for a behaviour... Him and the dog know is going to end in pain..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well as I said..not everyone can do it!


"I"don't bait dogs, "I" don't hurt dog, "I" don't fall over, "I" can stop a dog from jumping on me inside of thirty secs!

In the interest of full disclosure I also took Muay Thai for a number of years, so I understand the application of force! So there is that. 

But to your point...yes that guy was baiting the dog! But his point was squeeze the paws, as I said ..."not my style" but it might work for some.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> "I"don't bait dogs, "I" don't hurt dog, "I" don't fall over, "I" can stop a dog from jumping on me inside of thirty secs!
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure I also took Muay Thai for a number of years, so I understand the application of force! So there is that.


With the baiting... I was referring to the video you attached.. Not to you.

Brilliant... good for you...

Now that I know you have Muay thai experience. I can relate further to you..

How many times have you sparred relatively hard with soft knees... And somebody in a training session gets clipped with an unintentional knee and gets a giant gash, a blue eye.. Or even a knockout.. (Without intent to do harm)...

Now I have every confidence you can control the movement and the correct technique on the dog so that you dont hurt him..

Now lets use the OP's situation..

She is a married female. We don't know how old she is.. She maybe has not had that type of experience.. 
We tell her to correct this behaviour... Next time she has some problem somebody tells her to correct the next behaviour... 
Maybe she has not done all the other work everyone else talks about...

Suddenly there is an awful lot of corrections going on, that are probably going to be badly timed... 

Again it is not always a case of what you do... But the advice that can best help each individual...

When I had a puppy that kept bitting me too hard all the time... Personally I bit it back... (I would never recommend that to anyone on a forum). But yes, it did help that situation.

There is a big difference between what works for us, and what works for somebody else.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ugh. No it's not UDF and no one said so but it is crumby advice to give for a few reasons.

1 This is the internet, you don't know exactly what is going on with dog, owner

2 It that requires strength, skill and coordination and if one of those things is off dog and or owner quite likely to get hurt. See #1

3 Better to use a prong collar properly under the guidance of a good trainer. Much less chance of epic fail.




Chip18 said:


> Well as I said..not everyone can do it! But to clear up a misconception...this is not UDF (Ultimate Dog Fighting)! Your not grabbing the dog by the back of his neck and driving your knee into his chest!
> 
> As I said or did I? I can stop friends and neighbors untrained obnoxious dogs from jumping on me, pretty much inside of 30 secs! The owners never see anything happen...the dog does... an unexpected knee once or twice and they sit politely and wait for my attention!
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Uh oh.

We aren't going to have a Ivan v Micheal rumble are we? The Cesar v Victoria wars are bad enough! 

Ellis is pretty well known, more accessible due to the Leerburg promotion. 





Baillif said:


> Ellis is not the God of dog training


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:

I see you had addressed the lack of coordination aspect (re kneeing a dog) already Lykoz!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Uh oh.
> 
> We aren't going to have a Ivan v Micheal rumble are we? The Cesar v Victoria wars are bad enough!
> 
> Ellis is pretty well known, more accessible due to the Leerburg promotion.


That shouldn't even be up for debate. I could name a ton of better trainers in the US better than Michael not named Ivan. Lisa Geller, John Soares, Bart Bellon, Fabian Robinson, Jake Schneider... the list could go on.

Leerburg is good at marketing to beginners though I'll give them that.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Exactly! 

And...that's where most dog owners are at and where they shall stay, beginners.

So....let Ellis have the wee sliver of popularity he has when compared to the likes of Cesar and Victoria......

He and Leerburg have opened the door to a style of training that is more compatible with results and reality...a door through which some will go and then explore and learn more.






Baillif said:


> That shouldn't even be up for debate. I could name a ton of better trainers in the US better than Michael not named Ivan. Lisa Geller, John Soares, Bart Bellon, Fabian Robinson, Jake Schneider... the list could go on.
> 
> Leerburg is good at marketing to beginners though I'll give them that.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And...that's where most dog owners are at and where they shall stay, beginners.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point...

Even the World champion Ivan is not as much in touch with the pet owner as much as Michael Ellis. But even Ivan considers Michael the most complete and similar in approach and in agreement with Ellis... So goes to show... A world champion in the sport you so respect, thinks Michael Ellis is the man in the dog training world. Also Ivan and ellis are very similar in approach.. Words out of Ivan's mouth... In fact Ivan says there is no dog trainer on circuit he agrees more with, and if you want dog training ELLIS IS THE MAN...

So who should I listen to? Your opinion on better dog trainers? Or Ivans? You obviously think the world of Ivan... Ivan thinks the world of Ellis.. And Ellis shows Ivan the same respect.

Now the thing you need to understand with Ellis... And what seperates him from the rest of the sport guys... Is he creates material DIRECTLY RELVANT to PET DOGS... 
Its almost as if we are not allowed access to SPORT DOG experience trainers... 
We like ellis... Let us listen to him... He relates to us... Most others dont. 
Not to mention he is famous enough, and out on the web enough, that we can get a good feel about what he is about... Others claim superiority.. However dont have the transparency Ellis has.

This hyper competitvness of the sport world is what makes them completely delusional in training pet dogs. And what is really most important..

Your reply confirms this...

Pet dog owners want to draw from the expertise of the sport world...

But we dont have time for their mucho rubbish and hyper competitiveness that are so result driven, and less about the human dog relationship.

We like Ellis... We want him to lead the way for us... 

He is certainly better than the rubbish of Stillwell and Zack George...

Michael is a big deal... No matter how jealous some people are of his popularity. He is a great trainer. And he's methods are very well considered for Pet dog training... 

In fact most of his free for access work, can not create a negative situation with new pet owners.

I dont care who is achieving the best results in Competitive sports. Frankly it is irrelevant to me.

Ellis has the experience he needs. More than most professional trainers 99.99% of users on this forum are getting involved with privately as pertaining to training pets. I can say that with confidence.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They should at least keep it real though. How many of you have ever seen Ellis punish a dog? Do you guys even know he does it? That part which is vital to how they finish dogs is always left out of the YouTube videos and any buyable material I've ever seen them produce.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I *think* I know what you are talking about and why there are certain club training sessions where Looky-Lu's aren't invited.....

Most people aren't going to finish dogs at anything. Most people just want to stop the peeing in the house, door dashing and being dragged on the leash.

Those who are getting that serious won't be looking for a video.....





Baillif said:


> They should at least keep it real though. How many of you have ever seen Ellis punish a dog? Do you guys even know he does it? That part which is vital to how they finish dogs is always left out of the YouTube videos and any buyable material I've ever seen them produce.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You dont know what Ivan thinks of Michael. It isn't what you think. If you knew about how Ivan trained you'd see just how foreign it is from what Michael does.

Michael doesn't train pets. His system isn't even geared toward pets. If you went to Michael and asked him to train your dog he doesn't even do that. Ivan trains pets for clients though.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Lykoz, true about serious sport trainers vs trainers for every day pet owners.

It was the same with horse trainers. Beginners didn't train with Micheal Poulin (Olympic dressage rider). Micheal only worked with other serious competitors after a certain point in his career.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh boy.

I couldn't afford to pay either of those guys!

I've seen this sort of thing in the horse world too.

I've seen videos posted by raw novices working with ME, posted by the students themselves not produced for any $$$. 

I did enjoy Ivan's youtubes with some Yorkies I think it was. . 

Too funny!

Anyhow, Ellis, Ivan all the others are way beyond my experience so it really doesn't matter.

My main point was Ellis has more "production" support and is a bit more well known for it. That's not necessarily "all" bad.... :shrug:




Baillif said:


> <snipped>
> 
> Michael doesn't train pets. His system isn't even geared toward pets. If you went to Michael and asked him to train your dog he doesn't even do that. Ivan trains pets for clients though.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Come to think of it one of the Ellis videos was with an older lady and an obese adult GSD (looked to be ASL) that didn't have recall or good leash manners. She was definately not involved in any kind of serious sport with her dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The leerburgs Ellis stuff is all geared to sport the school itself trains dog trainers who are either doing sport or just wanting to go into it as a business so there are pet related things it just isn't what you see on YouTube usually.

If I had to pick a school for training pets knowing what I know now I'd have rather gone to Tom Rose


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Baillif said:


> You dont know what Ivan thinks of Michael. It isn't what you think. If you knew about how Ivan trained you'd see just how foreign it is from what Michael does.
> 
> Michael doesn't train pets. His system isn't even geared toward pets. If you went to Michael and asked him to train your dog he doesn't even do that. Ivan trains pets for clients though.


 I know what Ivan thinks of Michael... They have testimonials for each other on each others websites: Here they are...

Stop this competitive rubbish... Your just throwing names to devalue Ellis...
But the very names you are throwing out RESPECT ELLIS IMMENSELY.

So please.. You are fighting a losing battle.

Ellis is very well known for adapting sport training techniques for small pet dogs.. 

Ellis does not teach clients much... He Teaches DOG TRAINERS... I.e. to think critically... He does not work on just the dog... He works on the TRAINER he is TEACHING.

IVAN BALABANOV TESTIMONIAL MICHAEL ELLIS:
source: The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers

If you are reading the testimonials you must be still in doubt which School for Dog Trainers to attend? And if you are reading this one, you must value my opinion so here it is:
I don’t know of “any” other school instructor(s) that has the gift and passion for teaching, combined with years of collected experience and knowledge that Michael Ellis have! Sure we may have some differences in training, but overall there is no other trainer I could agree more with. This is the school. 

Ivan Balabanov
Multiple IPO World Champion

Michael Ellis Testimonial for Ivan: Source Ivan's websites Ivan Balabanov & Ot Vitosha Malinois - 2 x World Champions! 
Dog Training Videos - Testimonials

Ivan Balabanov is, in my opinion, the most gifted competitive sport trainer in this country. I have learned more from my time training with, and from watching Ivan, than from any other single trainer in my career. He is thoughtful, innovative, and insightful. Ivan and I may have our training differences, but I cannot recommend anyone more completely. If you are interested in dog training, you should expose yourself to Ivan Balabanov. Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers.


They agree with each other because they UNDERSTAND differences in material they produce.. And who it is focused for...

As Micahel says of Ivan... He believes he is the most gifted COMPETITIVE dog trainer.... 

Huge difference in mindset... Pet dog owners are NOT competitive.

If you took a kid from his family, and trained it like a SPARTAN... Sure it would do great as a professional fighter or a soldier...
That is what is happening with many competitive dogs... It is win at all costs...
Anything to get the edge...

Pet Owners dont want competitive people training their family companions.

Ellis is the best I have found who is not completely competition based..
He is not trying to win world championships.

K9 dogs critisize sport guys for focusing too much on points...
Why cant we critisize sport guys for the same as pet dog owners?

We dont want a Rambo dog... Or a UFC dog..
We want a dog that is a pleasure to live with... Non agressive... And has a great bond with us..

UFC fighters and Rambo types often dont know when to turn it down.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

My guess is both those guys would be bored to tears or worse dealing with the sort of clients and dogs you deal with. 

Generally the higher level trainers do exactly that, train apprentices to take on the run of the mill pet clients. Same in the horse world.

My trainer that I work with went to that school. Cool! 




Baillif said:


> The leerburgs Ellis stuff is all geared to sport the school itself trains dog trainers who are either doing sport or just wanting to go into it as a business so there are pet related things it just isn't what you see on YouTube usually.
> 
> If I had to pick a school for training pets knowing what I know now I'd have rather gone to Tom Rose


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You base your information off an old testimonial. 

This isn't a battle. You're wrong.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> My guess is both those guys would be bored to tears or worse dealing with the sort of clients and dogs you deal with.
> 
> Generally the higher level trainers do exactly that, train apprentices to take on the run of the mill pet clients. Same in the horse world.
> 
> My trainer that I work with went to that school. Cool!


Your trainer went to Tom Rose school?

I dont know much about Tom Rose...
So since we are talking more about training styles, than actual dog trainers... Thread has lost scope a bit...

I would like to hear a Tom Rose trained trainers approach to Pet dogs..

Based on your posts I would imagine he also ascribes to the 

"Show your dog the way positively, before using corrections"?
Is this how your trainer works?

i.e. does his general philosophy co-incide with Ellis? Or is it contradictory?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, Tom Rose school.

One of the first things he did was loan me a couple of Micheal Ellis videos. 

So yes he does ascribe to the same basic methodologies as you describe below.

He also has two Malinios one with a PSA title, one he's working in IPO along with his Czech WL GSD that he works in IPO and he is a helper at his IPO club. 

He works with pet owners to pay the bills. 





Lykoz said:


> Your trainer went to Tom Rose school?
> 
> I dont know much about Tom Rose...
> So since we are talking more about training styles, than actual dog trainers... Thread has lost scope a bit...
> ...


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup, Tom Rose school.
> 
> One of the first things he did was loan me a couple of Micheal Ellis videos.
> 
> ...


Well awesome...

So we are all in agreement then.
Tom Rose... Michael Ellis.

They seem to agree on pet owner methods.

I think people here try so hard to degrade a trainer.

They don't realise the top guys they are comparing them with are actually all on the same page..

I hate these trainer vs trainer threads..
All these guys are good..

When I say subscribe to a 'similar philosophy to michael ellis'..
I dont mean he is the only trainer thats worth anything.
I also dont mean copy/paste word for word...

We were talking about the general idea of showing the dog what to do, and correcting thereafter where necessary... 

That is all..

Baillif recommended Tom Rose style training.. Well a graduate of his school, is thinking along our lines.
They seem to all be doing the same thing anyways for pet dogs.. The top guys at least, that are not stuck up on competition or reality protection work..

Its only users here throwing temper tantrums on who is better... You will find a lot of these top guys really respect each other..

I know Ellis' style better.. So I use his philosophy and general thinking as an example.. He is also quite popular.. So people can relate to him.

My point is I really believe on a: REWARD BASED SYSTEM for PET OWNERS...

As for competition... I would not know... I am sure there are better approaches that are faster to do things. Just remember to the 'social competitors' out there... That often its just a hobby for you and your dog... And the rest of the time you need to live with him. I would hope its a happy dog.

Fast Results in some dog sport does not = pet dog success.
The other mistake some dog sport trainers do is they treat every dog like its High drive working line, tough as nails GSD... 
I had a dachshund a long time ago, that crumbled when I did a small correction for peeing in the house... It became afraid of me... It was so terrible. Had to rebuild that dogs confidence so much..
When you give random people advice... Corrections, if they dont apply them well to the right dog can be disastrous. I learnt this over many years, and many different type of dogs.

That is all..


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Tom Rose is usually more geared toward use of R- with prong and e-collar to teach more so than food training when teaching new behaviors although they aren't above slices of hotdog. If you ever see a trainer spitting food out of his mouth at a dog looking up at him it's probably a Tom Rose trainer. If they love using sliced hotdogs also probably a Tom Rose trainer.

The reason I tend to shy away from food use for most pet dog training especially in the way Michael Ellis uses it for sport dogs is there's a conditioned sense of expectation as well as excitement that gets packaged with the behavior itself. Most clients that seek out training for their dogs for an inboard training system have a dog that is out of control excited already and needs to be more patched down than brought up. The Ellis type stuff is great if you have a dog that needs to be brought up out of suppression either because it is nervy or flat, but even then you have to move past that to either punishment or R- if you want to finish behaviors well.

Tom Rose style stuff is more conducive to the kind of state of mind clients typically want. Most people do not have the ability to handle in a high energy state of mind in a controlled way, or at least in a way I see as controlled. You don't want to add fuel to a dog that is already a firecracker.

What that graduate ended up going with isn't necessarily what they were taught there. I've seen graduates from that school run the gambit of yank and crank to going nearly purely positive. A lot of times its a marketing decision.

I have a feeling you don't even really have a grasp on what Michael does off video. If you think you know Ellis just based on what you've seen on youtube or a video from Leerburg here and there you're still pretty clueless. Those videos are set up to where they teach you just enough to get yourself in trouble without getting the next one. They don't give their cow away but they let you sample the milk.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Tom Rose is usually more geared toward use of R- with prong and e-collar to teach more so than food training when teaching new behaviors although they aren't above slices of hotdog. If you ever see a trainer spitting food out of his mouth at a dog looking up at him it's probably a Tom Rose trainer. If they love using sliced hotdogs also probably a Tom Rose trainer.


Ed Frawley also teaches spitting food in dogs mouth... Just saying... Its in one of his paid courses.

Sliced Hotdogs... Frawley... Ellis... Forrest micke.. They all do that...
I love hotdogs as my treats.. And I have barely seen Tom Rose's material at all.



Baillif said:


> The reason I tend to shy away from food use for most pet dog training especially in the way Michael Ellis uses it for sport dogs is there's a conditioned sense of expectation as well as excitement that gets packaged with the behavior itself. Most clients that seek out training for their dogs for an inboard training system have a dog that is out of control excited already and needs to be more patched down than brought up. The Ellis type stuff is great if you have a dog that needs to be brought up out of suppression either because it is nervy or flat, but even then you have to move past that to either punishment or R- if you want to finish behaviors well.


Did you not read how I approached the problem with the ops dog? It was Michael Ellis inspired... However was not a direct pick-up from Michael Ellis.

Ellis is really good at teaching a mindset.. A way of thinking... He's material is never exclusive from small raised puppy. Thats one of the reasons I love him so much... In the video I showed he was not coaching a baby puppy... It was a bigger dog who was jumping on the owner.



Baillif said:


> Tom Rose style stuff is more conducive to the kind of state of mind clients typically want. Most people do not have the ability to handle in a high energy state of mind in a controlled way, or at least in a way I see as controlled. You don't want to add fuel to a dog that is already a firecracker.


I clearly showed ways to remove the fuel positively without s correction.



Baillif said:


> What that graduate ended up going with isn't necessarily what they were taught there. I've seen graduates from that school run the gambit of yank and crank to going nearly purely positive. A lot of times its a marketing decision.


I have seen some of his philosophy since you brought him up ... Tom Rose's style is very adaptable to what the dog needs... The pet dog owner with a Tom Rose style, saw through his education at Tom Rose, and felt that Michael Ellis had some brilliant material, that all pet dog owners should watch.. Further affirms my points.



Baillif said:


> I have a feeling you don't even really have a grasp on what Michael does off video. If you think you know Ellis just based on what you've seen on youtube or a video from Leerburg here and there you're still pretty clueless. Those videos are set up to where they teach you just enough to get yourself in trouble without getting the next one. They don't give their cow away but they let you sample the milk.


Im sure he does a lot more... But maybe he IS NOT COMFORTABLE SHARING THEM TO THE PUBLIC DUE TO INCOMPETENT MISUSE... That shows SOCIAL CONSCIENCE. Trust me Ellis covers most vital information out there for Pet dog owners. He even covers some competition work... But we are not talking about competition here.

I wonder what makes YOU so confident showing a NEW dog owner half techniques not explained properly, with incomplete background, that may have a NEGATIVE effect on her dog.

Dig deeper... There is a place for everything... But its about applying it, and WHO should apply WHAT..

Incomplete information on a forum, should be DO NO HARM info that can HELP...

For more serious advice, I always advise them to educate themselves thoroughly.. OR Find an appropriate trainer.

I think over many many years of owning dogs.. I know the type of trainer I would consider working with...

Michael Ellis is definitely one.. Tom Rose, seems to be more similar to Ellis than you like to admit...

Watching a competition capable Tom Rose trainer teach a pet dog owner the way he does says more than you will ever know about Tom Rose...

He is not as different as you think from Ellis on Pet dogs. proves my points more.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You're a Leerburg fanboy. I get it. You don't know Tom Rose style stuff but feel comfortable lumping it in like it was what Ellis was teaching. That's cool. It's wrong but that's cool.

It doesn't show social conscience at all. Ellis doesn't shoot and edit those videos. Leerburg does. It's a marketing decision.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I dunno guys. 

I trained with two different trainers. Both trained and competed in bite sports in addition to training pet OB. The first one was modeled on ME style training with the food and exuberant praise, motivation, timing, consistency, releasing pressure. I trained in a group class with many breeds and it was loose leash walking, recalls, sit, down, proofing. Those of us who had GSDs and wanted to wade into IPO stayed after** and we worked with flirt poles, rags and tugs. It was so much fun....anyhow the trainer doing the group quit and the main trainer didn't want to fool with beginner groups.  

Then I started with the other trainer and he was similar. However in both training situations the trainers adjusted depending on the dogs and owners.

I know the way they trained with us was different then when they trained with their bite sport groups. 

All I know is it really helped me greatly, got me out of the PO box and put me on a better more results oriented path. I just hope I have the opportunity to continue to learn and maybe get to wade into the IPO world again.

**it was interesting how you could tell who was really committed to learning and improving their skills with their dogs, wanting to go to that next level. We stayed and worked, in the rain, the cold...but we loved it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Competition training is always more fun than training pets.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

It really makes since the way you explain things Lykoz & I do agree the Michael Ellis inspired methods you gave I like best. I'll be honest though I kinda got lost in all the different trainers (I'll have to go re read lol)  But the way you explained to me how to handle my situation is working. 
I am more uncomfortable with corrective measures because even though I believe my timing is right I may be wrong. And yes the thought of unintentional injury to the dog is another concern. Also for my dogs sake I'd much rather not tell people he's not familiar with to just knee him if he jumps. With the way I'm going with him now I can actually see him thinking and trying to figure out the best way to get me inside the gate (he's learning it's not by jumping) I always wish for my animals to think for themselves and the fact that he is I think is great. I can't always knee him if I've got a handful of things, plus when my husband tried it he would begin anticipating it and just move out of the way and jump again. He's always a step ahead of us. The last thing I need is to damage his trust and cause a potential agression issue. Especially with my young niece around a lot. 

As far as different trainers and methods when training horses I always would use the natural horsemanship methods of training, which works amazing and actually develops a trusting relationship. The Micheal Ellis method you describes Lykoz seems more along those lines to me. Anyway, I'm not opposed to corrections if and when necessary, I'm just not looking for that to be my first attempt in problem solving.


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## Mumma1 (Jan 26, 2015)

Baillif said:


> When it comes to dog jumping you don't need to teach a dog an alternative to not jumping as they already know behaviors that dont involve jumping on people like putting all four feet on the ground for instance. All dogs that I know of that have all their limbs know this behavior. All that remains is to disincentivize the jumping.
> 
> Besides I know you didn't do it right. You say you punished your dog? Not *according to science* you didn't as in order for it to be considered punishment there had to be a reduction in the target behaviour
> 
> _You don't need to teach touch buckets or baby gates or sits or long downs. *You can't really accomplish those with a high degree of accuracy in real world conditions with most dogs without using aversives at some point anyway.*_*.*




Have you got any scientific or analytical data for that statement? What is your definition of a high degree of accuracy? 

Personally, I prefer the consistent use of commanding space with Oscar from Day 1 because I can teach and reinforce the calm behaviours I desire right from the get go, and avoid inflicting negative punishment when my dog is so young. Sure, he knows behaviours like all 4 feet on the ground at this age (he does have all 4 limbs, after all), but he also has had lots of time to learn jumping fun with litter mates.


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## Mumma1 (Jan 26, 2015)

Baillif said:


> It doesn't show social conscience at all. Ellis doesn't shoot and edit those videos. Leerburg does. It's a marketing decision.


All that editing. Does give me pause for thought. I feel like the "Power of" series, and also Leerburg's puppy video had more than enough examples of perfect training scenarios where everything went splendidly. I would have appreciated a few more 'blooper' reels and those moments where the best of intentions just went off the rail.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=flGubVRwZYc

That's my definition of a high degree of accuracy. That took one take and no editing. I can reproduce that outside (it's 9 degrees outside atm so maybe later) but it's just a fact. When I give a dog a known command I expect it to be carried out.

With the highest motivated dogs trained really well maybe you can get close but those dogs are pretty rare and it only works when P- is super effective and clear. You have to be really good at reinforcement schedules too. I don't have any study data for you but I know no purely positive team has ever won a national or world level event in ring sports. I'm not talking all these sports where a dog is basically in a Skinner box.

As for the knowing he didn't truely punish the scientific definition of punishment means there is a reduction in target behavior.

Competing motivators get in the way. At some point the dog is either not going to care about your reward or just not care about being wrong when there is no cost or just a momentary denial of resources.

That's just how it is. Even Ellis punishes dogs. If you listen to the video with the lady with the jumping shepherd the dog jumps she says should I punish that he says **** yeah you told him to sit.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Baillif what would be your best advice to ensure the correction at the exact moment? Even with natural horsemanship you would apply pressure or basically pop them with a whip until you get the desired result. The harder amount of pressure depends entirely on the horse...not enough to hurt the animal just enough to get then to move. So where I do agree correction is needed at times would I apply the same technique to dogs as far as timing the correction?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

If I get jumped on I grab both front paws and hold them where they landed for a few seconds longer than the dog wished them to be there. Works great.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Those things as you understand them are for negative reinforcement. If you want the dog not jumping up you need to punish the act of jumping not negative reinforce them into coming off you. 

So timing wise ideally you catch the dog as he is coming up, with a marker indicating he screwed up and then it buys you time to punish even if by the time the dog already comes off before you get to him you can still deliver a consequence and the dog still knows the reason why.

As for how hard. It needs to be hard enough to reduce the potential for future occurrences of the behavior. And it needs to be unpleasant. How hard is that? Depends on the dog. But let's say you poke a rib. It needs to be hard enough that one rub poke makes the dog want to get off you immediately.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> If I get jumped on I grab both front paws and hold them where they landed for a few seconds longer than the dog wished them to be there. Works great.


I love this one too. This is probably the easiest option.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ok, so basically the same concept as applied to a horse. Thank you for the clarification. I figured so but just wanted to be positive. He seems to have figured things out for the most part without it. He hasn't jumped in two days on anybody. So far so good  but I'm sure at some point I'll need a correction on something. Sorry if I ask a lot of dumb questions, maybe things that seem obvious to some, I'm really interested in the training aspect and would love to learn as much as possible about it. Maybe that's why I'm so interested in his training myself so I can learn more.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Good idea about holding te paws! Lol I don't think he would ever wish to come down, so holding his paws and keeping him there would probably be wonderful for him and I'd probably be standing there for hours


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Trust me they all get sick of it eventually. You want to be super matter of fact about it and stale. Don't get silly and dance with him.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Right. Well that's one of his biggest problems. His favorite time to jump is when we are playing. So I'm trying to make it a point to never allow it even in play. I think that's where my inconsistency came from before. That's actually how I stopped him from mouthing, just holding my hand in his mouth longer that he wants it there and not making it a game


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Do a lot of people think he's a positive only trainer? 




Baillif said:


> That's just how it is. *Even Ellis punishes dogs. * If you listen to the video with the lady with the jumping shepherd the dog jumps she says should I punish that he says **** yeah you told him to sit.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I don't like the idea of kneeing either, for a few reasons, one of which is unintentional but serious injury to the dogs tender abdomen area.


We seemed to have moved on from this but...

The "Knee thing" seemed pretty straightforward and simple to me?? And rest assured that it can be done "without" injury to the dog!

But upon further reflection, I get the objections! If the concept of "pulling a strike" is alien to someone , then yes it might be difficult to grasp the "knee thing."

I will refrain from recommending that technique in the future. 

By and large we are all here to learn!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I just read the OP. There are definitely inconsistencies between how I handle this and how my husband does, so that doesn't really help, but this is what I do if it's just me:

I come in, calmly greet my dog in her crate, take care of a few things (like take off my coat and shoes, maybe go change clothes), and quietly walk up and open the crate. She's usually still pretty excited and wagging and jumping. I turn my back to her with a slight hip check if she jumps and give our command for no jumping. Calm praise when she keeps all of her paws on the ground. She is getting better for me, gradually.

My husband is always excited to see the dog and goes straight to the crate to let her out.

We haven't had people come over in a really long while, so I'm not sure how she'd behave. I think I'd leash her for that.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Yeah I'm more of the rule maker and my husband is more for games and play according to Decus. Lol. He knows that he has to listen to me. I tend to ignore him at times when coming home until he calms down. My husband usually redirects him to a toy which get him excited. 

And yeah actually I did have to go with another method. The calming him down and making him lie down worked for a bit but when he got overly excited it didn't matter he still jumped. Chip we eventually turned to trying to knee him, which he was able to duck away from and thought we were playing a game. Lol so he really jumped more. However I think we have solved the problem!!!    I don't remember who suggested it but we grabbed his paws and just held him up until he was ready to get down, and told him "off" when we released him. Guess who will not jump anymore?! If he does he barely pops off the ground but his feet never touch us. He's cured! Haha!!


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's advice and opinions, yes we are all here to learn and you guys have much more knowledge about it than me. So thank you all again! My husband and I are on the same page now so the inconsistencies we had before are much better.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Decus.115 said:


> Yeah I'm more of the rule maker and my husband is more for games and play according to Decus. Lol. He knows that he has to listen to me. I tend to ignore him at times when coming home until he calms down. My husband usually redirects him to a toy which get him excited.
> 
> And yeah actually I did have to go with another method. The calming him down and making him lie down worked for a bit but when he got overly excited it didn't matter he still jumped. Chip we eventually turned to trying to knee him, which he was able to duck away from and thought we were playing a game. Lol so he really jumped more. However I think we have solved the problem!!!    I don't remember who suggested it but we grabbed his paws and just held him up until he was ready to get down, and told him "off" when we released him. Guess who will not jump anymore?! If he does he barely pops off the ground but his feet never touch us. He's cured! Haha!!


I posted the "squeezie paw" thing clip and got flack because the
guy baited the dog! 

The "knee" thing I did qualify and if the dog can anticipate...your doing it wrong! And yep done wrong...it's a game!  But it sounds like you're getting it done in a different way. 

But for the record...the dog sound see anything, he jumps up then you extend your knee, he comes down and hits the knee...throws him off balance...what was that??

But squeezie paw will yield the same results and is much easier to execute for most folks.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Good to see that I'm not the only one who sees one member's unwavering 'fanboyism.' (Is that a word? It is now). 

In any case − prefer to stop jumping up by looking for the precursors, and then stopping it early in the behavior. 

"Just about all puppies (and many older dogs that have not been trained not to do so) will jump up if given the opportunity. They want the face-to-face contact that they enjoy with their peers. The best way to stop jumping up is to take action before the act starts.

* "Precursors * 

"You need to recognize when the act of jumping up starts. There’s a weight shift to the back legs and usually a slight crouch in the front legs. Next the head comes up. When you see the weight shift, quickly extend your hand in front of Fido's face with your palm towards his face, the finger pointing up in the classic, universally recognized signal, "STOP!" Let him jump up so HE BUMPS INTO YOUR HAND. Make sure that HE is responsible for this action. If he gets past your hand, it's too late to do this. The act of him running into your hand must be due to HIS actions, NOT YOURS. You merely put your hand in his path and he runs into it."​
THE REST ...


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Yeah I liked the video about grabbing the paws. I guess I did notice him baiting the dog to jump up, but I looked at it more as because he was trying to show how to correct it not for any other reason. It worked though! 

I guess that's what bothered me most about kneeing him. Even I I can execute it precisely others may not be able to. But anyone can grab his paws and hold him up. 

I apologize if I offended you about the kneeing method. I knew it wasn't being done right so I was a little more anxious about telling people to do it.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Loucastle, I like that method as well. I'll probably try that next if he decides to start jumping again


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Decus.115 said:


> Yeah I liked the video about grabbing the paws. I guess I did notice him baiting the dog to jump up, but I looked at it more as because he was trying to show how to correct it not for any other reason. It worked though!
> 
> I guess that's what bothered me most about kneeing him. Even I I can execute it precisely others may not be able to. But anyone can grab his paws and hold him up.
> 
> I apologize if I offended you about the kneeing method. I knew it wasn't being done right so I was a little more anxious about telling people to do it.


Oh no problem! LyKoz had a problem with it. Ticked me off at first! But it made me "think" and yes...the point was valid!

I can do it but yes it requires a "certain" skill set that not everyone has! 

Glad you getting it done and we are all here to learn!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> Good to see that I'm not the only one who sees one member's unwavering 'fanboyism.' (Is that a word? It is now).
> 
> In any case − prefer to stop jumping up by looking for the precursors, and then stopping it early in the behavior. "Just about all puppies (and many older dogs that have not been trained not to do so) will jump up if given the opportunity. They want the face-to-face contact that they enjoy with their peers. The best way to stop jumping up is to take action before the act starts.
> 
> ...


WOW! That strikes me as "simple" "direct" and an easy skill to transfer! 

No "kneeing" no "Poking" and no "Squeezing" although that last one is not subject to doing damage but...all those require hands on the dog.

I detailed what works for me but I don't recall ever issuing a command?? So a given dog quickly learns...OK I won't jump on this guy! But others are fair game!!

So my question would be, if this is done as you outline...does this stop a dog from jumping on others?? Is an actual "command" a part of getting the jumping on "other" people to stop??


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Somehow I missed this thread. Of the three dogs I just pet sat for two have jumping issues. I read through this thread and got some good ideas I hadn't used before. It's great to come here and find there are always others that have more ideas.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Yeah. My timing is pretty good from years of horse training but my husband has never really been around animals until we got together so his timing is kinda sporadic lol That's what concerned me about kneeing him or popping him on the nose. But the squeezing technique has worked very well. 

As far as attaching a command with it, we have been telling him "off" everytime and now if someone comes over and he jumps on them I say "off" and he does get down without them having to touch him. Works when he jumps on the gate too  He's pretty smart and picked up on it quickly. He hasn't jumped on anyone in about a week.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Oh no problem! LyKoz had a problem with it. Ticked me off at first! But it made me "think" and yes...the point was valid!
> 
> I can do it but yes it requires a "certain" skill set that not everyone has!
> 
> Glad you getting it done and we are all here to learn!


Actually no... If you read this thread properly, I dont have a problem with it.

It was certain people who disagreed with a more positive approach as a first strategy.
I also mentioned that not everyone might be able to use the knee effectively due to an overexcited dog and normal citizens being out of balance... Not controlling their own balance, and maybe overhitting etc.

It is subtle. 
But whoever actually reads the thread will understand that I was not against kneeing per say.. I was against the idea as this being your first and only strategy. If the first strategy worked even a bit... You would need to knee less. And deal with a less excited dog... A dog who is going crazy to greet their owner, will always need a 'stronger' correction to 'get it'..
People were disagreeing with things I suggested, that I believe do work.. And throwing it out the window, because they felt a knee to the dogs chest was 'easier'.
We are talking about a dog who has probably being doing this for a while.. And he is super excited..
Anyways lost in translation of the forum again, what I was saying.

Makes for lazier training and worse relationship with the dog.

We dont all want police style trained dogs in our house... :gsdbeggin:


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Calming him down and the advice you gave Lykoz worked wonders for him. Almost a complete turn around for him. The only problem I think and it wasn't your advice, is that I'm generally his main handler. So where he listens great to me. My husband and guests are another thing altogether and did require more correction.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good deal. 

Something Lou mentioned and I think Bailiff did as well, try to catch the behavior before it happens. Once he is solid with the "off" command give the command as your guests are walking in and he's getting just into the jumping "mode" before he even lays a paw on them. 

Kind of like a horse without ground manners getting ready to rear, soon as they start acting up, shaking or swinging that head down..... 






Decus.115 said:


> Calming him down and the advice you gave Lykoz worked wonders for him. Almost a complete turn around for him. The only problem I think and it wasn't your advice, is that I'm generally his main handler. So where he listens great to me. My husband and guests are another thing altogether and did require more correction.


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## Decus.115 (Oct 30, 2014)

Ahh true. Lol as much as he jumped before he's gonna think his name is "off"  but really I do see what you mean, I can see him preparing himself to jump.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Decus.115 said:


> As far as attaching a command with it, we have been telling him "off" everytime and now if someone comes over and he jumps on them I say "off" and he does get down without them having to touch him. Works when he jumps on the gate too  He's pretty smart and picked up on it quickly. He hasn't jumped on anyone in about a week.


OK, it looks like "squeezie paw" can work and you do "need" to issue a command!

My way worked for me and I guess I just let other folks deal with her!:blush:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Actually no... If you read this thread properly, I dont have a problem with it.
> 
> It was certain people who disagreed with a more positive approach as a first strategy.
> I also mentioned that not everyone might be able to use the knee effectively due to an overexcited dog and normal citizens being out of balance... Not controlling their own balance, and maybe overhitting etc.
> ...


Well additional clarification is seldom a bad thing!

So moving on...



Lykoz said:


> We dont all want police style trained dogs in our house... :gsdbeggin:


Is that where that came from??? Just something I always did?? Maybe I saw it in a book??


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