# DDR-mix



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

I saw an uppcoming breeding with this male,
Gråmanns Orkan

He is a perfect policedog according to the handler and others and works as a PSD, haven´t seen so many good dogs with more modern DDR-dogs included,anyone know his DDR-part? Is going to be mated with a a very "drivey" female from the same combination as this dog,

Brigadens Cross


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

His dam line is the key to him being different from modern DDR dogs. Very interesting pedigree, not surprised he is great police dog.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Actually this proposed breeding may be very very nice. The female pedigree is very sporty and built for prey and grips. Orkan is built much more for balance which is needed when complimenting an extreme good pedigree. I love the breeding mentality of the Scandinavian countries in terms of balance and mixing lines to maintain the balance.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My Ufo v Guy's Hof daughter was bred to Q haus Shiho twice, and to ****** once. There were police dogs, SAR dogs and sport dogs produced, with several having both "real" and sport certifications. Great temperaments and work ethics. There are a few personal red flags for me, but overall I like the balance and combination.

Lee


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Really like the mother lines in both sides of Orkan`s ped. It has connections to old herding lines and classic working lines. I can see how it balances out the DDR, and the extra hard WGWL and why he is such a good police dog. Then you pair it with modern schutzhund lines in Cross and you will probably get both good police dogs and good schutzhund dogs from the upcoming litter, in short just good GSDs all-around. If I was wanting a foundation female going further, this litter sounds promising.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Just realized that Cross is 2-5 on Orry. Any concerns about that (question mark - lost the question mark key on my keyboard :0 )


----------



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

wolfstraum, what are the red flags if you are willing to share?


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

just dogs I don't like to have in pedigrees...see my PM...

Lee


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Btw, Bjorn, when I said sporty for female, I looked at total pedigree, Orry, Mohnweise, daelenberghutte, Tom, Zennevallei, this is recipe for a points sport dog, IMO.


----------



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

I know they was planning to use another male earlier, but if the motivation is the same for using this male they wanted to add some stability and balance combined with more unused rare lines for increasing the genepool. What I have seen from this females and her littermates and halfsiblings they seems quite extreme in their preydrives and grip, nice sportdogs but there are also policedogs and securitydogs among the littermates. So they are not overly sporty if that means only prey and speed and not much else.

The female also is a certified securitydog, easy to train and maybe not a hard dog, but has so much drive she seems to do such job well, not so far from many malinois in type of dog
One female and male from the same combination as this female, they are quite similar in type of dog,










The female in question,









She also had a litter before with another policedog but his lines is more of the swedish ones, but I like the dog I seen from that litter in structure and character, much prey but also some aggresion and brave dogs, one male from that litter at 18 months who also works as a securitydog,









His first time doing protectionwork at 11 months,


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bjorn, you get get a police dog from sporty lines, especially for nose work and also for patrol work. You can get a police dog from west German show lines. When I say sporty I am identifying primary general traits you can expect like the prey drive and subsequent grips. (As you have pretty much described in some of their "Mal" like behaviors. In Sweden this is good place for dogs like this because the chances are these type dogs will not be bred to other like type dogs thus creating Mal drives and disaster for the breed. But Sweden has a much more balanced approach to this breed than those breeding for points.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"What I have seen from this females and her littermates and halfsiblings they seems quite extreme in their preydrives and grip, nice sportdogs but there are also policedogs and securitydogs among the littermates. So they are not overly sporty if that means only prey and speed and not much else.

The female also is a certified securitydog, easy to train and maybe not a hard dog, but has so much drive she seems to do such job well, not so far from many malinois in type of dog"

I was hoping that Mona (Brigadens) would stay more with the old Swedish type dogs . I think her first departure was with Troll Milinda who had hardness in protection phase SG Troll vom Haus Milinda -- originally a plan involved using this Jack Stieglerhof son -- one amazing dog 
Whio¿s Greve Goliat

I would like to see Brigadens, and Swedish breeders preserve that essence of character , not so much exclusively using Swedish lines in purity the way some DDR breeders here think it needs to be done. This makes for alternative genetics that could come in useful for all .

I hope things don't get too trendy .

On the youtubes first female lots of prey , some stress in the bite , no release , tugging play and the leaking - noise .

I probably see the same red flags as Wolfstraum


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The female goes back on Optikas Dusty (same kennel as Daelenberghütte) through her mother. Dusty is linebred on Belschik Eicken-Bruche who had very high social aggression himself and was used for producing dog for both police and some sport. I have a Belschik daughter. 

Dusty is also linebred on Arek Stoffelblick who again brings social aggression, fight drive and power in protection (most coming from, IMO, his dam Ira Körbelbach). He also brought very good hunt drive. 

Dusty's sire, Xamm, was used for producing police service dogs in the UK. The breeder of Daelenberghütte tends to like a more serious balanced dog and seems to do a very good job of crossing the different lines based on his dogs I have met and trained with.


----------



## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Cliff, I know what you mean, but with "sporty" dogs I mean either dogs that have to little drive/motor for pass a selectiontest for the police, or dogs that have insane preydrive but may lack other thing like confidence/courage in tough environments or other things that isn´t good for service, like maybe having to much drive and a lively disposition for their nerves to be able to concentrate in work like hard surface tracking or similar. Both types of dogs could do well in sport thou, but I think these dogs I´m refering to here is not sportdogs by that definition, that they lack aggresion or preydrive, enough confidence etc. Can send you a PM of two males who works in the police and one in security, the policedog same combination as this female discussed here, the other same mother but different father, just to see if they are what you consider sportdogs.


Carmspack, I guess it´s inevitabel some breeders will breed more for sport also here when the borders are more open and IPO is introduced, just like you see many doing IPO in czech and breed dogs from sportlines. However as you know there are different type of dogs also in those breed long for IPO, so I guess this isn´t necessarily a bad thing. The breedings done here I would say is often somwhere between 100% foreign IPO-dogs and 100% of the old swedish lines, how much you use of certain lines I suppose is depending on what the goal and personal taste is for a breeder, or just what lines he/she have most knowledge on. Using only IPO-dogs is however not as widespread here as countries like germany and belgium for example.

The kennel you refering to is not the breeder of this litter, even if the female comes from their breedings. As you said they have used combinations of different lines, IPO-dogs, KNPV-dogs or swedish dogs. I don´t think they have any intresst to breed to the trendy dogs, their goal is dogs that could do high level sport and servicework, not only "easy" point sportdogs, or dogs that may be good policedogs but lack the grip and speed in the attacks that is needed for matching the malinois in different dogsports, regardless if it´s KNPV,IPO or swedish program.


----------

