# SV-Conformation Questions



## Renoto (Feb 28, 2012)

In my quest for competing in just about every venue I can with my GSD Xena, I've been turning a lot of attention to SV-Conformation shows (though not yet Seiger shows). After scouring the web, articles, forum posts etc I think I've got a good idea about it. Once money builds again I'll be joining up with the USCA and registering Xena with them too.

Right now she does ring class weekly, and has been in a couple formal and informal shows and she works well with moving ahead. Sometimes she pulls left, but were working on it. Considering the amount of conditioning that will be needed (mostly for me), and the distance/infrequency of shows in my area, I dont think we'll actually be entering an SV-Show for a while yet so I've got time for us to prepare.

I do have some questions though, so if anyone can help me out that'd be fantastic!

The first question I have is about handling. I kind of dont want to hire a handler for a few reasons, and I dont mind bumbling through things while learning. It would honestly be far less stressful for me to handle, but I'm curious if it is actually allowed or not. Nothing I read gave a straight answer. Some articles said owners cant show and some said it's not recommended, and some talked about owners first time in SV shows actually showing, so I'm honestly not sure what the definite answer is. 

Another question, how many times can a dog compete for a rating? And is there any distinct reason that a dog would be V in one show and SG in another? Is that even a possible outcome? I'm not entirely sure how the ratings really work. I know how the show itself works, but in AKC shows a dog could win the breed under one judge and lose it's class under another judge, but at the end you get points which lead to a Championship. If I were to enter Xena in a show and she gets an - optimistic - V rating, and at another SV-Show under a different judge she gets a G, which title would stick? And could I compete again to get a better title? 

I'm sorry if this sounds like a glaringly novice question, but I couldnt find much information about this online. I havent yet looked into books about SV-Shows, but I will soon. Any volunteered information is also really helpful! Thanks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, you can handle your own dog. I handle Nikon (but I do have my husband or a close friend who he likes "call" him for me if I need it). If you are handling without a double handler then your dog needs to be trained to move WAY out ahead of you and move fast.

A dog can compete as few or as many times as you want. You don't need to earn points or majors or wins; the dog earns a rating and critique every time. One reason a dog can V once and then SG is because judges have bias and/or are willing to overlook things. Like if a dog is obviously too large, one judge may still give it a V rating but another might be a stickler for size. One judge might be "working line friendly" and V rate a nice WL but another judge might be a jerk that only likes WGSL. Getting an SG rating after a V rating does not mitigate the V rating.


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## Renoto (Feb 28, 2012)

I was hoping you would answer!

Thanks hah! Yeah I was going to be using my boyfriend as the Double Handler, but I think he might have to do the 'hide-and-call' method. Were going to have to work on it, but Xena gets excited easily if there is something for her to be excited about. So it's certainly going to be a while before we go anywhere, but she just turned a year, so she's still young.

I was curious about the Working Line vs Show Line aspect of this too. A few times I read that there are some clubs which are more friendly to one type or another, but so far nothing about judges being unfair based on type. Is that ever an issue though?


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## Renoto (Feb 28, 2012)

Oh and that reminds me of another question. I've seen everywhere that you can have either a tattoo OR a microchip, but all the registration forms I've seen for membership or showing just say Tattoo #. Would I just write the microchip number and write 'Microchip' in () or...what would I do in this case?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Renoto said:


> The first question I have is about handling. I kind of dont want to hire a handler for a few reasons, and I dont mind bumbling through things while learning.


I advise you to find a handler at the show or you can email the trial secretary to find out if there is a list of available handlers or sometimes the show website will list available handlers or you can show up the day of and ask around for a handler. The majority of people will do very poorly when handling their own dog. It is far better to have an experienced handler handle your dog in the ring if you have never done an SV show. Judges like dogs that have been worked and trained properly for the venue - most dogs will not do well with having the owner handle. It looks bad 99% of the time.



> Another question, how many times can a dog compete for a rating? And is there any distinct reason that a dog would be V in one show and SG in another? Is that even a possible outcome? I'm not entirely sure how the ratings really work. I know how the show itself works, but in AKC shows a dog could win the breed under one judge and lose it's class under another judge, but at the end you get points which lead to a Championship. If I were to enter Xena in a show and she gets an - optimistic - V rating, and at another SV-Show under a different judge she gets a G, which title would stick? And could I compete again to get a better title?


You can show as many times as you like for one age group or class. 

VP or P ratings:
3-6mo 6-9mo and 9-12mo

SG or G ratings:
12-18mo and 18-24mo

After 2 years is when it gets a little complicated... 
In Germany, they do not have the open class for untitled dogs over 2 as dogs over 2 are expected to be titled before showing for a rating. In the USA, it is much harder to get dogs titled so many shows have open class for these untitled dogs over 2. Some shows will even have requirements like only 24-36mo can show in open class untitled. If you show in untitled over 24mo, the highest rating you can get is SG. 

If over 2 years and titled, the dog will be shown in working classes. In these classes, the dog has the possibility of getting a V rating. If the dog is not a V conformation dog, it will get SG, G and so on. For VA, it will have to be a Sieger show and dog must have additional requirements. 

Unless you are a show person with a conformation dog, I advise you not to show a dog multiple dogs after you get the highest rating for the respective class, because you CAN get lower ratings even if you got a higher rating under a previous judge. One judge's rating does not necessarily influence another (unless it is a big show with big names...and that's a whole another story  ) so you CAN get different ratings under different judges. Some judges are kinder and more accepting of working lines so we show the working dogs under them. Some judges don't mind about oversized dogs as much so you show your bigger dogs under them. Some judges are very particular about color so I might not show a dog with pigment issues under them and so on. 

For example, knew a working dog that was really a "G" in structure. Under Judge 1, the dog somehow got a V when shown in a working class - everyone was pretty amazed that this G dog got a V. For some odd reason, the owner showed the dog again under a different judge. Judge 2 was by the book and gave the dog what it deserved: a G rating. Now it looks bad for the dog as a V dog now gets a G rating under a bigger judge. You will still have both show cards, and you can advertise her as a "V" dog, but if people looked at the info, they will still know that the dog was rated G. Unless you have lots of aspirations for the SV show ring, show her once for the best rating possible and stop. 

I will show my showlines under many judges even if it is for the same class. So even if I got my SG, I still show her for many SG's under different judges because that shows that multiple judges rate this dog as a SG rating. Same for when she gets titled and goes for a V - she will be shown many times because it campaigns her, gets her recognition, AND gives me important feedback on what many different judges think about her structure. I can then use that information to plan for the future. 

For my working pup, I will most likely only show her once for each age group. Most working people I know only show once as a young dog for SG rating as they need it for the breed survey later on. And if they want to go for a V rating, they show the dog again after it is titled. I like to show so I will campaign and show my working pup along with my showline. But I will not show her as much as my showline. For example, the working pup is entered in 4-6mo in the Sieger show to get her VP rating in that age group. I could have shown her at 2 other shows, but I will not - only my showline will enter those. Then I will show her once each as 6-9, 9-12, 12-18, and 18-24 - if at all possible, I will show her under judges that are accepting and fair to working dogs. Once over 24, I will wait to put a title on her and then start showing her seriously for several V ratings as it is a personal goal of mine to campaign and show a working dog in larger shows under several judges - working dogs need to be represented as well and if we do not go out and show the dogs, then we have no room to sit around and whine about show dogs ruining everything. But again, this is because of my personal goals, my conformation background, and it is only possible because the pup has the structure, movement, and conformation for me to even try for that - I would not try this with just any working dog - dog must have the structure. 



Renoto said:


> Oh and that reminds me of another question. I've seen everywhere that you can have either a tattoo OR a microchip, but all the registration forms I've seen for membership or showing just say Tattoo #. Would I just write the microchip number and write 'Microchip' in () or...what would I do in this case?


You can have either. Just fill in microchip number - they will know which one you are talking about as tattoos are shorter than chip numbers. Before the show, they might check tattoos and chips. At that time, just let the checker know which one you have.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Renoto said:


> I was curious about the Working Line vs Show Line aspect of this too. A few times I read that there are some clubs which are more friendly to one type or another, but so far nothing about judges being unfair based on type. Is that ever an issue though?


I can't remember the last time I was at a show where there were no working lines. They are definitely a minority but they do show. In my opinion, the ratings given have always been fair. Normally a show line has to be pretty exceptional to win a class (or beat competition, not just win because it's the only one). But I can say the same about my show line dog. I don't do a ton of ring training and don't campaign him at shows so he typically places towards the back even though he is a show line dog. As long as I get the rating I feel the dog deserves, I'm happy. I'm not huge into showing so I don't care if I'm not given the top spot. 

It's not that the club is working or show friendly, but what type of club is hosting the event. For example the last event I was at there were many working lines because the show was hosted by a Schutzhund club that has national level members, so their show is going to draw more working line people. I've shown my young working line dog to an SV judge from Germany at a show dominated by show lines and he got the highest rating possible for his age (SG at 13 months) so in general I've found that the judges are pretty fair. 

I tend to not show my dogs at shows right before a Sieger show or to judges that are judging the next Sieger show because these shows get more competitive and political.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Renoto said:


> I was curious about the Working Line vs Show Line aspect of this too. A few times I read that there are some clubs which are more friendly to one type or another, but so far nothing about judges being unfair based on type. Is that ever an issue though?


Yes - I've shown Kessy several times, most of the judges were very complimentary. I know her structure isn't perfect but she is an honest SG dog.

But one judge was downright nasty, she put Kessy at the back of the line and really smashed her in the critique. Said it's a dog of much "lower quality" than the others (showlines) in the class, and gave her a G. 
The next day we had our Kkl, and the judge actually LOOKED at her and in the critique said a bunch of things that contradicted what she said the previous day. 

I've also seen judges give WL dogs V's that REALLY don't deserve them. I'm not after an easy V - I'd rather get an honest rating!


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## Renoto (Feb 28, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I advise you to find a handler at the show or you can email the trial secretary to find out if there is a list of available handlers or sometimes the show website will list available handlers or you can show up the day of and ask around for a handler.


I'd rather give it a go and if I suck, then there is always next time. For me personally this is something I want to do, and I'm very willing to work with my girl and practice with her in class and even at AKC shows. 

There some other reasons as well, but some of them are sort of personal, and I write/talk enough as it is! It has nothing to do with the dog, I honestly dont think she'd really care who handled her, but this is a 'me' thing. I mean I'm not averse to the idea, but I dont think it's best in my case.



qbchottu said:


> Unless you have lots of aspirations for the SV show ring, show her once for the best rating possible and stop.


Nah I'm just interested in seeing how we do, how she is rated, etc. I only really used that analogy because it was the only situation I could think of where it would make sense to go again for a different title haha. If I went out and got a V rating I dont think I'd be going out again :3.

Thanks so much guys for these answers!


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I second what Lies said. You do NOT want to show your own dog. Practice at home, set up a ring with tape. One of you handle and one run the outside of the ring and call. That way dog gets the idea, hopefully. 

We did a show and I just walked around with Falon and we asked real nice..lol..to some of the handlers and got a handler for our dogs. The guy I asked was popping a beer at 9am..lol..so I knew he would be calm. Max loved him.

My experience was everyone was super friendly. Max is a gnarly working line and got a fair critique and I wasnt even too embarrassed! Have fun!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah finding a handler is never a problem. I've seen people try to show their own dogs and then someone jumps in the ring and takes their leash!


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## Renoto (Feb 28, 2012)

I was actually thinking of setting up a mock ring in my yard too! So now that ponyfarm has mentioned it I actually might get to that in a few weeks (Xena has been limping, so now everything is on hold til she's better).

Well to be honest, if it was my trainer or someone I knew personally I'd be fine with someone else handling Xena, but really the problem actually is me. I'm not even sure how to explain it, but I dont think that any handler I worked with would walk away happy with me. I have a very very bad habit of shutting down mentally under random stimuli. Quite a few times I've tested the extremes of my IPO trainers patience. One time I got so anxious I actually forgot left from right. I was threatened with an electric collar lol! All in fun, but sadly this has been an issue of mind for several years now. 

It's very random when this happens, but it always involves the initial anxiety of working closely with people I dont know. Even thinking about it right now has gotten me a little frazzled. If I did go with a handler I dont know, they would need the patience of Jesus to deal with me. (Or give me some beers for popping at 9am haha!)

I'll probably talk to my IPO trainer, I think she has done some SV shows with her previous dogs. Hopefully she could direct me to someone she knows, and that would give me time to get to know them personally. Or someone from class, which would be even better.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Where do you live, or where is the show?


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

You, nor the dog have time for nerves..the handler takes the dog and off they go! I had all the same reservations. If anyone is nervous -nellie, its me..you dont do anything but run/walk around or hide ( I had too, Max was better if he couldnt see me). The handler was great..dont worry , they arent training your dog, just letting them pull them around the ring. Most seem to be just fine with that!

It was fun, exciting, nervewracking all at the same time..and I might even do it again. I guess I am a glutten for punishment.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly. Your handler doesn't have to deal with you, YOU will have to deal with the handler! They will tell you what to do.

The only issue with setting up your own ring is that unless you know what it should look like, no training is better than bad training. I see people trying to do their own ring training but the main thing they're missing is...other dogs! They can train the dog to gait off leash by himself around in circles but when you put all the other dogs (and people, and people waving toys, and yelling....) into the picture, if the dog is not trained for that it all falls apart and then you're just left with a confused dog that has the wrong idea about the show ring.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ponyfarm said:


> It was fun, exciting, nervewracking all at the same time..and I might even do it again. I guess I am a glutten for punishment.


We gotta get you in a bigger show, it's more fun! Maybe this coming fall (I'll have to wait and come back to show Nikon for his V since all the other shows in my region got cancelled). I think our show was the same weekend as another big show in the same area so that's why no one turned up. It was the lowest attended show I've seen by far.


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## Renoto (Feb 28, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Where do you live, or where is the show?


Theres no show yet, but I tend to get as much info as I can about things way in advance before I do them. Also, I live in Upstate NY, Orange County. Theres 2 SV-Conformation shows that happen about 2 hours from me this year, and I think they happen yearly. The closest one is June, but I'm thinking I'll wait on that. 

I dont want to wait until she's 2 years old though, just because I'm still unsure if I'll be able to get her an AD title or not, again based on my own limitations lol. I'd like to give it a shot though, but I'll need some roadwork done on me much more than the dog...and a bike. 



ponyfarm said:


> You, nor the dog have time for nerves..the handler takes the dog and off they go! I had all the same reservations. If anyone is nervous -nellie, its me..you dont do anything but run/walk around or hide ( I had too, Max was better if he couldnt see me). The handler was great..dont worry , they arent training your dog, just letting them pull them around the ring. Most seem to be just fine with that!
> 
> It was fun, exciting, nervewracking all at the same time..and I might even do it again. I guess I am a glutten for punishment.


That honestly does make me feel a little better about the handler aspect, though I still would rather know the person handling ahead of time, but I'll worry about asking around later since I'm in no real rush. It really does sound exciting though, which is also why I'd love to handle myself. Being on the sidelines just irks me. At least I've got time to think about it.



Liesje said:


> They can train the dog to gait off leash by himself around in circles but when you put all the other dogs (and people, and people waving toys, and yelling....) into the picture, if the dog is not trained for that it all falls apart and then you're just left with a confused dog that has the wrong idea about the show ring.


We already do ring class every week, and she's been to two shows so far and one of them was in a very large, noisy domed building. It was really cool, and she was fine for that show. Class also gets pretty crowded so she's had dogs up her butt and almost ridden up other dogs before, so hopefully that aspect is pretty well covered.

What she isnt used to though, is the rope on the inside of the ring. She's never had to go through something like that and while I dont think it would phase her at all, that is something I could get her used to in my yard at least. Mainly I just want her to get used to the idea of pulling and being between ropes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Most conformation classes are for UKC and AKC style showing which is very different and won't necessarily transfer over (though it DOES help that your dog is used to *standing still* and being stacked even if you don't know how to stack perfectly).

Once a dog is two, to be eligible for a breed survey rating she would need to have a BH, AD, hip and elbow certifications, and a SchH or HGH title. However many club level shows offer an "open" class for dogs 24+ months without their titles but these show cards do not count towards a breed survey.

If you want to handle you can certainly handle other people's dogs. I've handled for other people a few times. A club level show is generally small and very relaxed. I've also seen very young kids learning to handle and most judges are very patient with them. The last show I was at there was a 6 year old boy handling.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are people that show their owns dogs. It is not ideal, but I have seen it done and the dogs showed well. I wish I had jumped in and taken Deja's line from Lies. She would have shown better for me. 20/20 hindsight. Elena, on the other hand, showed great with a handler. You do have to know what you are doing, though. Might be good to go watch some shows so everything isn't totally new for you.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Didn't Mike D. and Gabor handle their own dogs? Granted they are very skilled handlers with lots of experience.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah some dogs like Nikon and Deja are a little more cray-cray than your average show line! If I handed the leash over and tried to walk in front of Nikon he'd be hauling his handler through the mud face first! He is perfectly fine being touched, examined, pet, etc by other people but he's a German Shepherd, not going to walk away from me with a stranger for a cookie, lol. But even if I'm handling him myself I still have someone else calling him. Even stacking him for his breed survey I had someone calling him for me. Also I've done like seven SV shows so I can see how it's done. I would never have volunteered to handled or handled my own dog at my first show. Now Pan I had someone else handle and I doubled. He's more laid back in the ring and he'd go home with anyone!


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