# Would an e-collar work?



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Just looking for some insight before I bring this up with our trainer.

Stark has kind of relapsed in the past few weeks in regards to his obedience, both at home and on the field. Not sure if it is because of Zefra (they don't train together and are outside only once or twice per week together) or because we have been training a little less, or what.

I brought him out to the new club we are going too (had been there before with Zefra, but finally brought him out) and we went through most of the BH pattern - it didn't go well at all. No focus at all and his sits/platz/steh's were super low motion. Totally distracted. This has been happening at home as well.

When asked to sit or down he will look away and slowly go into a sit/down. 

I have been reinforcing the command verbally and if he has a collar on, will give a correction with that but it doesn't seem to be working.

I want to ask my trainer if working with the e-collar would help with this? He knows the commands (no confusion about this) but is not performing the way I know he can. Seems totally distracted or uninterested in performing. 

Even his recall as of late has been slow. He will perk up when I give him his informal recall command, look at me, start towards me and then start sniffing the grass or bush and then meander back to the place of interest and then will start over back to me again. His recall was 100% reliable in any situation until a few weeks ago.

Like I said, the two pups don't go out together often so I don't think this has to do with him getting distracted or annoyed by his little sister.

I have been doing a lot of bond building stuff with Stark and spending extra time with him doing some fun, engaging things and things we both enjoy like bike riding to see if this helps (maybe he feels out of place with the new pup?) but not quite sure if that is the reason.

Any insight would help, do you think the e-collar would work?

I of course, will not implement it without my trainer's help as I want to ensure it is being used correctly and that I know what I am doing first.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Any insight would help, do you think the e-collar would work?


No. You need to ask yourself what might be different about what YOU are doing. How YOU are feeling when he is not performing the way you want and so on. The type of correction does not improve what you are talking about there but a change in your own attitude, enthusiam and praise can. Not saying you should stop using any corrections either but what you do immediately after one, or what you are doing when your dog is doing something RIGHT. Easy to get stuck in the what he is doing wrong stuff without considering the other side or it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm obviously not a Schutzhund person but everything you describe sounds like Stark isn't having fun. That super slow response is often a calming signal to the handler as the dog can sense your frustration. Too many aversives are a recipe for slow and distracted OB. Why not change things up and use rewards instead? Make it fun and rewarding for both of you.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

It also sounds like you might be getting stuck working the dog over and over in a routine. Where he is simply bored and you are there doing nothing to change that. 

Also, when people are training in a new place, they usually look different to their dog because they are nervous. New people are watching and they are distracted by that. All these things the dog sees and feels and reacts to.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I should clarify, most of my training IS reward based (either toy or food) but I do use corrections as well when needed.

In order to get Stark to perform, I need to get him high-high in drive (for him - which is about a medium level drive) which we have been doing by teasing him with the lure/tug/toy. This is something we do before we train and have done for quite some time.

I have been told to go back to the basics with him and reward eye contact, reward engagement, etc.. see if that helps the behaviour. Just today I had him at the local park off lead and had treats on me and kept calling him over and running around while treating him. 

Maybe he is bored? I have been trying to get him ready for his BH/AD and have been going through the routine quite a bit, putting the pieces together. When we went through it on Sunday, it was almost a joke. No focus, not even an ounce. 

I guess there was/is some frustration there with him too on my part because he will perform amazingly for awhile and then regress again, be doing awesome, me thinking it's time to start trialing and then we get so close only to have issues like this pop up again.

It was also suggested to me to bring him out to the field and just play with him. Work on engagement/focus through play and then put him up. No obedience, no protection. Just play and fun on the field. 

I know I will never ever get those snappy sits/downs/heeling with Stark, I have learned to accept that and not expect it but I do expect him to show some obedience/focus while working and ESPECIALLY when we are just out and about at home. I think the recall today (with him kinda blowing me off) was what really did it for me to realize that this isn't just a problem on the field but that it had carried over to our "real life" too.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> In order to get Stark to perform, I need to get him high-high in drive (for him - which is about a medium level drive) which we have been doing by teasing him with the lure/tug/toy. This is something we do before we train and have done for quite some time.


If you have to do that, he isn't motivated by it. Food probably isn't his thing either. Try PRAISE...be happy, be enthusiatic when he does things right.....tell him when he is doing things right. Be entertaining so he WANTS to look at you. You have to be willing to look a little silly sometimes to get the dogs interested but it won't matter what you do with that ball, he just doesn't care about it.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I would go back to just working on engagement, as that's the main trouble (it seems) that you're having. He's already learned the commands, he's just not focused or willing to do them. 

Do short sessions, make them very rewarding, end before he's tired of working (basically, end with him wanting to play more, or earn more treats). My goal would be to just work on eye contact.

An e-collar would teach him to obey or else, but you wouldn't necessarily build up his desire to do so. 

As for recall, if he's starting to ignore you, put him back on a long line and don't give him the opportunity to completely blow you off! Or have someone help you and try to do restrained recalls after you've build up some desire on his part to participate! Or even, work him on a 6' leash and put a lot of enthusiasm into your recalls, he'll only have a short distance to go to get to you, but hopefully you can focus on speed and quickness of response that way.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Stark sounds exactly like Lucy. She isn't food motivated at all and gets bored very easily. To get her to train, there has to be a ball involved. Even a tug toy won't do it unless it's a flirt pole.... it has to be a ball and can really be a struggle sometimes.

As mentioned above, it sounds like Stark is just bored. It might not be what you want to hear, but maybe he isn't just isn't cut out for a BH or AD title. Are you sure he's really enjoying the training or is it kind of just something he has to do... like homework for a kid? 

If it's gotten to the point where you need to put an e-collar on him just to focus... is it really worth it to you and him? If I recall correctly... hasn't this been a constant issue with Stark? Maybe the titling and training just isn't for him. Some pets are just meant to be great pets... maybe that applies to stark.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> I have been reinforcing the command verbally and if he has a collar on, will give a correction with that but it doesn't seem to be working.





> Even his recall as of late has been slow. He will perk up when I give him his informal recall command, look at me, start towards me and then start sniffing the grass or bush and then meander back to the place of interest and then will start over back to me again. His recall was 100% reliable in any situation until a few weeks ago.


Listen to Anne. Stark is showing avoidance. The looking away, the slow reactions to command, going elsewhere on the recalls, all show that he is feeling stress and/or confusion (and I am leaning towards the former just going by what you are writing).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Vandal said:


> If you have to do that, he isn't motivated by it. Food probably isn't his thing either. Try PRAISE...be happy, be enthusiatic when he does things right.....tell him when he is doing things right. Be entertaining so he WANTS to look at you. You have to be willing to look a little silly sometimes to get the dogs interested but it won't matter what you do with that ball, he just doesn't care about it.


I don't do Schutzhund, but oh my gosh, this works so well with my sweet Bella, who was afraid to look people in the eye when I got her, to now giving me really nice heeling (in an environment she is comfy in - she is still no stable Mabel) with enthusiasm. She likes when I say Hercules! Hercules! and clap from the one Eddie Murphy movie...makes her go all happy and then she's ready to roll. 

Also - people can correct me - I try not to be a droning constant noise in their heads, but do reinforce a lot with my voice as they are doing what I want, the more low key the dog, the higher, happier my voice. It works for kids too! Lots of inflection and enthusiasm. EEEEEE! Wow! Yay! 

I really make an idiot of myself.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Also I don't get this - when the dog looks away give a correction - how does that work - I would *never* look back at you because I would totally go into opposition -that's my Chow Chow coming out. I'd be like screw this. (and that's what the Chow mixes would do too) and my GSD would be like wow, that's so unfair, I don't really think we should work together anymore. 

I don't think it's regressing either...I don't think it's good to be labeling things so much as improvement, regression, it's all part of being a young male dog who has a lot going on that is more interesting than what you want him to do. Think a 17 year old boy with hormones raging - is he going to want to listen to his mom nag about his chores, or is he going to be more interested in what he wants to be interested in. I don't know how you can be more interesting than that, but getting away from stimulus-response thinking and more into the partnership you have when you are NOT training could help.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Play with him-we just started this put a ball (if he likes a ball) under your arm attach it to a leash if he is not looking drop the ball-make him miss it and use the leash as a flirt pole


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Lisa is spot on. What he is showing is avoidance. Stark is telling you clearly that he is not enjoying this and is stressed out by it. Using something to make it more stressful and less fun is not the answer.

I don't mean to pick on you, but I clearly remember some videos of Stark heeling that you posted a while back, and thinking as I watched them that it was some of the most boring, stiff, uninteresting and non-energetic handling I'd ever seen. And I know you got some comments to that effect at that time, though worded a bit less bluntly than I just did. But if the handling is the same, it isn't surprising that he is giving the same disintersted attitude, and then responding with avoidance to attempts to make him do it rather than make him want to do it (huge difference there).

It's tempting when they don't perform as we like to blame the dog and want to come up with ways to make them do what we want, but that's the wrong outlook to have. 99% of the time a failure to perform, and I'd say 100% of the time a failure to *want* to perform, is entirely our fault as handlers. 

Really the bottom line is if we want our dogs to engage with us we have to be engaging. If we want them energetic, we have to be energetic. If we want them intersted and paying attention, we have to be interesting and worth paying attention to. If we want them to have fun, we have to be fun. 

He knows this stuff and you know he knows this stuff, but to do it he has to want to do it. The more pressure you put on him, the less fun it is and the less he wants to do it, and the worse things get. You have to find a way to bring up his attitude and get him to want to do it, and that hinges entirely on your attitude and how you interact with him. Listen to Anne because what she is saying is exactly what you need to do.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I soooooo agree with the posters above (who are much more knowledgeable than I am) and would like to add..

A female I used to have, working in obedience, was REALLY boring for her, unless I was TUNED UP and having a GREAT time myself..If I drilled to much /to much repetition with things she already knew, she would go into avoidance..BORING ALREADY KNOW IT 

I finally "got it",,and said "enough",,It would kill my die hard obedience drilling sister who was constantly training obed, that I would do a quick fast run thru, go into a ring and score a 195+ on this dog..

She was not a flashy, wrapped around your leg, staring into your eyes type of dog, but she was 'with me'. It was all about ME knowing when I was overdoing stuff, and doing what worked for 'her'. And always being Happy, upbeat, not to serious, and lots of PLAY..

Just to add, I would never use an e collar or correction on my dog for not looking at me, avoiding me is my problem not the dogs


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with others. And probably that Zefra is playing a part in it. Sounds a lot like what Elsa was doing the first couple months Medo was here. I think it was a combo of not being the only child any more and the fact that mom's life was in shambles and I wasn't so fun any more. Everything kind of fed off each other and I can't say I loved the dog I had for awhile there.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A dog can have an off day, but this does not sound like an off day, it sounds like avoidance and boredom, as others have said. I found that if I drilled Gryff with a lot of repetitions, he started tuning out - or throwing different behaviours at me, maybe thinking that if I kept asking for the same thing, maybe he was doing it wrong? So I learned, one sit-out of motion in a session is all he needs - he does it well and snappy, why ruin it with five more that will get slower and slower? 

So forget the obedience routine for a while, change his mindset and go out there and play with him, making a fool of yourself. Another piece of advice is to use a different collar and leash on him too so he does not have the same association.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think that it is great that you have posted videos asking for feedback-because it is really easy for people to post videos of themselves and their dogs doing the perfect video routines-


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Could someone post a video of 'correct' handling? I think this is better than only a negative response.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My girl has lost it in heeling. I believe put too much pressure on it and did not keep the level of fun really high. I broke it and now have to fix it.

I have to find what motivates her. Heeling will not be more than a few exciting steps. I will add a lot of excitement.

Don't know if you have access to any of bridget Carlsen's vids? I am working on hackpot training and Conditioning excitement into each little bit of tge exercises. I am rewarding the least bit of EFFORT, not rewarding the performance of the exercise.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Avoidance. I agree that it would help to completely forget about any pattern work, and work on focus and engagement. Ruger did this to me when I was showing him in AKC. When I got Cues, I got all the M. Eliis DVDs and studied them. By watching them, I saw that all Ruger's issues were me. I was able to become much more dynamic and motivational to Cues. If you can swing it, the tug DVD may be able to help you.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Very good advice everyone, couldn't have said it any better. I had the same issues with Wolf and went to the "happy" place with my voice,etc. and there is now a world of difference in his attitude. We are still not doing formal heeling since I messed up soooooo bad, but we are getting there. Listen to what is being said here and hang in there. It will improve.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

This is also my problem with Sonar. I'm no fun. As soon as I became fun, wow what a change. 
He never looked at me consistently he would give me a glance when I said look but never stared at me and just kinda dredged along next to me. As soon as I started being super happy and ridiculous with my "look" command things changed. He would trot happily next to me looking dead into my eyes. 

My problem now is focus (he is 17 months). He will heal next to me and look while walking proud and tall but only for about 30-60 seconds then he will continue to heal and look at what he wants and go back to a normal walk. How to I keep it up? We am a spectacle at the park lol with him and me acting like a special person haha


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

'Engagement' training isn't just something we work on with puppies. The same 'work' with a puppy has to go on and continue with our adult dogs. If we are NOT working with an engaged dog, it's not their fault, it is OURS!

Watch these handlers. They are loud. They are obnoxious. They are moving. They have treats/toys.

THEY ARE FUN!!! So the pups are 'engaged'

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ime-owner/162230-engagement-key-training.html


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

As I am working on Soleil's heeling poop face, I have been utulizing some of Bridget's ideas. She definitely knows how tomadd her energy into the training.

also if you are practicing the routine before trialing, that is deadly for attitude. If you feel you need to run through the routine for your lesrning, do itbwithout the dog.


Bridget teaching energy and pizzazz...


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Do you have a link to Bridget's website?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes...

Bridget Carlsen - Competition Obedience Training


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

1) If you aren't a bit sweaty and out of breath while training heelwork, you probably aren't putting enough into it!

2) It's EXTREMELY important that praise/food/toys are used to REWARD the behavior and not to elicit the behavior. If you don't understand what I mean by that, please ask and I'm sure someone here can answer, or I'll answer tonight....but I gotta get on the road right now, I'm already late for an appointment.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Samba said:


> Yes...
> 
> Bridget Carlsen - Competition Obedience Training


Thanks!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Just wanted to say that I have read all the responses and will reply tonight (or tomorrow). I started a new job and have been super busy with that plus making sure the pups get their time with me.  Will respond. Thanks everyone!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Samba said:


> Bridget teaching energy and pizzazz...


I don't have audio at work so I don't know if she talks about what she's doing but ...

Why is she CONSTANTLY popping the dogs leash?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Why is she CONSTANTLY popping the dogs leash?


 
To a LOT of dogs, nagging little pops like that build drive and intensity. Seeing this dog's body language and response to the pops I would speculate this is such a dog and that is what she is doing. Clearly that dog does not view them as corrections, nor are they intended to be corrections.

There are a few things I personally don't care for in that particular demonstration, and that I'd do differently myself. (Honestly removing the toy lure would be one of those). But that's me. Overall it's good work and clearly illustrates what is being discussed in this thread, and there's nothing detrimental to the training with those pops.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You can pair the pops with the ball and they associate pops as positive


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

My problem with the pops is that the dog may rely on them for a cue to heel. It might be better to never use them then to have to fade them. But if that works well for her, that's great. Her dog looks happy and motivated!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

holland said:


> You can pair the pops with the ball and they associate pops as positive


Also very true. And when using toys as the primary motivator, this can help make the transition to fading out the toy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I train with the person in this video to improve my handling and footwork skills. I see such a difference in the way some AKC trainers work their dogs compared to the SchH style. 
After getting to know her and the dog in the vid(who is a dog that will challenge her, he is not a submissive happy go lucky golden, but a field working line type) her nagging on the collar or tapping the forehead, suitcase carrying the neck fur, different forms of reminders are beneficial and tend to build drive. 
She has other dogs that she works too, mostly field trial competition. He is not her only 'project'
She has learned from me(and another SchH person that trains with us) on how we build drive and cap it, and I have learned from her.
After watching Chris and Heidi and the relationship they have(no toy, leash required), I was in awe watching them do obedience. Heidi is doing it because of the interaction with her handler, not a toy or high value treat. 
When you trial, it is just you and the dog(no reward other than you)!
Great advice from Chris...and I have kept it in my head everytime I train.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

maybe Stark could use a day or two
of no training. go for a walk and give
him a treat for nothing. when in the house
a pet here and there for no reason.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> After watching Chris and Heidi and the relationship they have(no toy, leash required), I was in awe watching them do obedience. Heidi is doing it because of the interaction with her handler, not a toy or high value treat.


Thanks, Jane. You're right, that is her motivation and reward. But what you missed was the months of me running and jumping around like a slap happy idiot with a sugar high for a good long while before there was any formal obedience going on. I'm very pleased with her obedience, but it didn't come without a lot of work and I'd say more work went into building that training relationship and enthusiasm she has than into the actual obedience. And she still gets a good round of having a party with me for a job well done.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> . But what you missed was the months of me running and jumping around like a slap happy idiot with a sugar high for a good long while before there was any formal obedience going on.


 
That made me chuckle.... I know my neighbors think I'm a total 100% Idiot!! Some of the people in my SchH group think I'm nuts to.. but I want "me" to be the best most exciting thing out there on the field!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> me running and jumping around like a slap happy idiot with a sugar high for a good long while


Oh, I imagined it! LOL!! I bet your neighbors _do_ think you are the crazy dog family of which your extended family always seems to visit on Saturday(luckily you don't have many neighbors)
Lynn, I bet you and the boys(and the new girlygirl) keep your group smiling ear to ear every time you show up!


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> But what you missed was the months of me running and jumping around like a slap happy idiot with a sugar high for a good long while before there was any formal obedience going on.


:rofl:

I tried this the other day with Odin, decided to work some more on his heeling and stuff and I wanted to try different ways of making myself more interesting, since i'm normally a pretty quiet and laid back person. My roommates weren't home, didn't look like the neighbors were home.. I was hopping around, had a high-pitched excited voice and Odin was just beside himself.. it really made a huge difference. After the fact I was sweaty and out of breath, and then noticed my neighbor who had been working in the barn facing the field with a ridiculous grin on his face. Oh well.. I think they already had a sneaking suspicion that I was a little off.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

There's a lot of good information in this thread!

I had something similar happen with Saber. Granted she is a puppy (9 months) but has been doing formal OB classes for months. She was always SUPER happy and loved doing OB with me. I signed her up for outdoor 'proofing' classes this summer, and we went to various parks and locations to do Novice drills. The last 2 classes, she was SO bored. She had the slower responses and lack of enthusiasm. The very last class, she kept trying to wander from her stays. The instructor said "What's up with Saber today?" and I just had a feeling it was time for a break.

So we didn't attend anymore classes and I put her in something different for fall... no formal OB. We still do it at home but not The Drills. Maybe stark needs a break too. I know you want him to get his BH but maybe he could do something else for awhile and try again in 6 months? 

Also I wonder if he sees his beloved mommy cuddling and loving on the new baby sister and has some feelings about that, too. Even with human children and an awesome mom, the 3 yr old can act out when the baby enters the family. Even with lots of love and attention and even though they love the baby too, it is hard to share mommy.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes...sometimes I need a break too And its fun to do something different-go somewhere different-not just the same thing


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Cross-training is always a good idea!!

Bunny is going for a herding eval on Friday. I'm a big believer in cross-training.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Why is she CONSTANTLY popping the dogs leash?


Beyond what's already been said about the leash pops, the position of the leash is just as important. The leash goes right under the dogs chin and every pop on the leash helps keep the dog in the correct heel position and keep the dog's head up. She also uses it to help the dog find a rhythm when it heels.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, going to try and respond to everyone's posts all at once. If I miss something, please feel free to ask me again. 

I also want to say THANK YOU to everyone who responded, seriously. 

First off, Stark about 4-5 months ago was doing superb. He was as close as could be to doing the BH. He had a nice heel (not flashy by any means, but was focused and engaged), his exercises were going great. 

As soon as I started putting the pattern together, he lost interest. He became bored, maybe because I became boring (more than likely). I was concentrating on the routine more than my dog, I thought I had cleared that up. I would walk the pattern by myself and didn't take Stark out to work it until I knew it like the back of my hand.

When I took Stark out for a long time he was nailing it. I did have a slight problem with him lagging on the about turns but with some fun STOP and GO play (I would halt quickly then jump up and have him play with me/no reward besides me and some pushing which he LOVES - it worked) before the about turns we seemed to work it out. 

We stopped working for a good month or so, just doing some fun stuff at home or at the park, nothing serious because we lost 2 more people we train with so it was basically me and a friend working our dogs and it just wasn't going well so we stopped.

Then Stark started to show me these behaviours and around this time, Zefra came home. 

I started going to a new club about 1-1.5 hours away and so I brought Stark out to meet them and go through the routine to see if they could add any suggestions as to why he was shutting down. 

The second I sat him before we even started he was all over the place (in his mind, totally not focusing/listening) so I stopped, broke him for a second and then started again. The president told us to keep going and to break whenever we needed or I felt like I was loosing him, which basically was 2 steps in. 

He and I both agreed to stop it right there because he was just not "into it" at this point. He did say (and I trust and admire this person - will give website to those who ask in PM if you like) that Stark could do a BH, probably not this year but definitely next season (spring/summer) and he could most definitely get a "1". He has the potential. I totally agree which is what makes this so frustrating.

Now, in my original posts, it may seem like I am popping him or verbally correcting him every second, I am not. We use mostly positive training - especially on recalls and heeling - but I will admit to getting at a point where I don't know what else to do because the positive training isn't working (obviously) and no matter how animated I am (trust me - I have gotten silly) he is not interested in working. He will play and engage with me but as soon as I ask for a behaviour (either silently or with a verbal command) he just ignores me. I am not changing my tone or my attitude or my body language I don't think either.

I think at this point I am going to start bringing him out to the field, work with our new club and do as he suggested. Just bring him out to the field and play with him. No more working at home, just play at the club and work on focus/engagement again. 

I can't make it to the club in the next few weeks so during that time I will work on our bond and work on engagement and see how that goes.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

DunRingill said:


> Cross-training is always a good idea!!
> 
> Bunny is going for a herding eval on Friday. I'm a big believer in cross-training.


As for cross training - Stark does herding as well and we always do agility in the winter months.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> He and I both agreed to stop it right there because he was just not "into it" at this point.


There is a point where the dog has to understand that what you ask is not optional. A correction right after the command to heel usually snaps them into working mode. I think, ( just based on what I see people writing on these boards), that there is a fear of correcting the dog or a belief that once you correct the dog, you have to be the task master and not allow the dog to have any fun. I use corrections from the get go. How much of a correction depends on the dog but immediately after a correction, I am praising the dog for adjusting and then keeping him in the behavior with praise and enthusiasm. It is an attitude I am bringing that the dog can see. While you can use your body to encourage prancing, it does not have to be a case , ( like in the video), where you are running or immediately dropping a toy after five steps or...looking like an idiot for months on end. I have never had to do that when using corrections and praise together. No, it will not be that look with the dog's head cranked in that rather unnatural position, like the dog in the video. The dog will be looking at my face, not at the armpit. The look in the video is a bit to circus like for me but many believe the dog will crab walk if you don't use that toy there. Then they will lose points. That's veering off into another subject but I will say this. If you are simply out there begging your dog to comply, you are not going to get anywhere. Certain kinds of dogs respond very well to well timed corrections and praise. I understand the idea with the constant popping under the chin like the video but when you use a correction, or if it makes people feel better, a pop, to tell the dog when he is out of position and then praise when he adjusts, he will learn something and start to actually be trained.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Anne, this is what we have been doing. 

Coupling corrections, praise and reward (toy) even though Stark could really care less about the toy.

Still not an improvement unfortunately. I am hoping this new trainer can help, he actually has owned/trained a dog very much like Stark he said and he was able to put a "1" or "2" on him (can't remember) so that makes me hopeful. He said that Stark is showing way more promise than his male did so hopefully he can help!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The second I sat him before we even started he was all over the place (in his mind, totally not focusing/listening) so I stopped, broke him for a second and then started again. The president told us to keep going and to break whenever we needed or I felt like I was loosing him, which basically was 2 steps in.
> 
> He and I both agreed to stop it right there because he was just not "into it" at this point.





> Now, in my original posts, it may seem like I am popping him or verbally correcting him every second, I am not. We use mostly positive training - especially on recalls and heeling - but I will admit to getting at a point where I don't know what else to do because the positive training isn't working (obviously) and no matter how animated I am (trust me - I have gotten silly) he is not interested in working. He will play and engage with me but as soon as I ask for a behaviour (either silently or with a verbal command) he just ignores me. I am not changing my tone or my attitude or my body language I don't think either.
> 
> I think at this point I am going to start bringing him out to the field, work with our new club and do as he suggested. Just bring him out to the field and play with him. No more working at home, just play at the club and work on focus/engagement again.


I was reading these comments when I responded. I am saying, just taking him out to play will not fix it. Just being happy with an "up" attitude alone, will not fix it. All those things you can still use but he must understand that he must work when YOU want him to, not when he feels like it.

Edited to add: When he complies, then he sees the fun, the attitude...(while staying in the behavior), and finally, the play, when you release him.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Bridget fades the toy. She has it non-visible quickly. She does pull out all the stops to get the dog to establish "getting air" in heeling. Toy is then hidden. Food rewards not often on the handler. Not everyone puts so much emphasis on style. It does work for her. Training us an entire "system". She has earned a few OTCH points along the way.

I have seen several people use motivational collar jangling. Hogan really likes it.

My rescue female is having issue with correction. Some of it is her. Surely I have done something also. She used to have a lovely prance...now almost no heeling! Super! Someone said to me this weekend that they love her heeling prance...they must have caught sight of the three steps of it! Back to the drawing board. Much of that is going to be break from training. She needs to want it more.

I had a female previously who went to crap when it came time to learn it was a "have to". Also, the exercises got harder and it was work. Fell apart. But, with some time, some time off, some persistence...she no longer minded the "have to". She even came to believe it was her idea. It is an evolution in some dogs, maybe.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As someone who has trained probably, by now, hundreds of dogs using corrections and praise, I can pretty much say that yes, there is an evolution but it depends on the dog. Some dogs, you train a few sessions and then leave them for a few weeks and come back. Others, you can just keep on going. Some will be very attentive and correct but will not prance, no matter what you do. Some will not prance at first but later on, once the pressure is less, will start to do that. 
MANY will shut down a little at first and that is where the skill of the handler comes in. It is for sure a knowing when to stop situation when you are teaching the dog he must. Since there is some stress there, you have to read the dog and stop sooner rather than later or you get in a place where the dog starts to avoid. It can be just downright unpleasant trying to bring the dog out of avoidance and most handlers lack the skill and the fortitude to do it correctly. You can not leave the dog in avoidance, so, like I said, it is best, (for most people), to avoid putting them there in the first place. 


I think the thing I see most in the people is when they correct the dog, they either raise their voice, stop and let the dog think too much about what just happened, or they do not give an effective correction. All of these things results in the dog avoiding and then the handlers don't know what to do to get them out of it. IMO, if a correction puts a dog into avoidance, a correction will be needed to bring them out of it. That doesn't mean you cannot also encourage the dog to say, come forward while heeling because he is lagging or stopping due to a correction, but you will not be having success trying to beg the dog to come out of it. I think people get frightened by the response in the dog and then stop and that is the biggest mistake of all. Leaving the dog to get relief from stress, by avoiding.

There are dogs who do not care about a toy.....so how she would handle training a dog like that, would be interesting to watch. Not sure if that toy in her arm pit is standard equipment or if she is just using it for that particular dog. He doesn't look really super motivated by it, so, not sure why she uses it. She might get the same result without it.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> He doesn't look really super motivated by it, so, not sure why she uses it.


At that stage of training the toy under the armpit is not there for motivation, it's a focal point.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Anne,I understand what you are saying about the avoidance. I think I learned the most about this from you. I seldom wanted to forge ahead in the face of the initial avoidance from the dog. Then what a quagmire I created! There is some understanding needed, I guess to read the dog in the midst of squeezing through the avoidance knot hole. I learned I sort of had to just have faith in the dog and plunge through the avoidance. It is not easy to do sometimes.

Once the energy that was being expended in avoidance is directed into the behavior, it seems the other side is reached and performance is on the road. Can't say I ever enjoy the stage, but it is a bit hopeful then as I know a leap is about to be made.


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