# How often are show line dogs taught bite work?



## Kodakp

I brought Koda to another trainer who said he had pretty high drive. He asked me if I ever considered bite work? Wondering if it's about money?? It is hard to find the right trainer. Koda is becoming a beast. I have allowed him to rule. Anyhow he started to get bored with reward base training so I tried to change it up.


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## gaia_bear

we have a show line in our club who is doing quite well.


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## Kodakp

If you ever take video post it! I would love to see it. I had more than 1 trainer tell me Koda can do some work. I just kept thinking they want all this money. Lol


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## mspiker03

I am doing IPO with my two younger dogs. Both enjoy it, one will be better than the other. I of course want them both to do well, but I am fine and happy with however far we get


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## Kodakp

Awesome. I am a little interested.


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## Mrs.P

I am doing IPO and PSA with my WGSL he does well. Best bet is to find a club IMO


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## Gwenhwyfair

PSA with WGSL?



(Would love to see videos if you have any.. . )


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ilda had good feedback from the IPO trainer we started with. The main thing I hear about the WGSL and IPO is not enough prey, too much defense.

That was what I was told of with Ilda too. Though she had really started going after the rag and tug before we had to stop. I don't think it was about money, in fact there are groups out there that don't want to fool around with WGSLs at all.

IME...

If your dog has enough to work with I think the key is finding trainers-clubs that are willing to work with what *good* WGSLs bring to the table. Good luck.


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## mycobraracr

BY all means, have the dog checked out. A good club would be your best bet. Every dog is different, so know can say just because it's x,y, or z line it can't do it. 

IME, it's not always a "drive" issue with SL's. It's a nerve and hecticness issue.


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## carmspack

I guess the answer would be , where are you? If you were in Europe it would be necessary for the "show line" dog to train and title in IPO as part of the breeding-pass.
You can see the results on you tube videos posted on several threads on this forum , or go on a search . 
I agree with mycobraracr , issues with nerves .

You have to know your animal. Once you start something you have to be prepared for the consequences. Make sure you don't acquire unintentional problems.

You did say " Koda is becoming a beast. I have allowed him to rule. Anyhow he started to get bored with reward base training so I tried to change it up. "

Personally I would focus on this. 
Remedy the relationship . Don't bribe the dog with treats . Make him work for the reward .


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## Kodakp

He doesn't have much ball drive but will play fetch for just a couple of runs. But he has prey drive and chases cats, birds ect all day. But I see him loving all people so not sure if that will change anything. I never looked into anything but obdience and just loving him. Now I am looking up videos, sports and it's pretty **** cool!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh boy. You guys. Even when I repeat what experienced people/trainers tell me IRL I'm still getting it wrong.

Is it 5 o clock yet? I think I need to just go get a horse again.. 1000 pounds and still easier....

Hehehe . :crazy:  :help:




mycobraracr said:


> BY all means, have the dog checked out. A good club would be your best bet. Every dog is different, so know can say just because it's x,y, or z line it can't do it.
> 
> IME, it's not always a "drive" issue with SL's. It's a nerve and hecticness issue.


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## WesS

carmspack said:


> I guess the answer would be , where are you? If you were in Europe it would be necessary for the "show line" dog to train and title in IPO as part of the breeding-pass. You can see the results on you tube videos posted on several threads on this forum , or go on a search .
> I agree with mycobraracr , issues with nerves .


Im sure a lot of show-line dogs who cant handle, are not bred or forced to title. Most owners certainly don't do it. Obviously it happens also where dog is forced into it even when a bad candidate. But the whole point is to not breed dogs that cant establish the 'minimum' criteria for a GSD. Because when you do, you fundamentally change what the GSD is. I think conformation has its uses, as pertaining to show-lines (Emphasis not just on results on the field, and how they do that work. But it was never meant to be a stand-alone judgement of the breed. 

So I don't think its true that show-lines have to title in Europe or anywhere else. Only show-line gsd's that are fit for breeding do. Also why breed dogs with 'issues with nerves'.


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## Kodakp

I have to find away to make him really work. He is starting to get through the sit, come, stay very quickly but cannot hold position that long. I have a new trainer lined up for June with a lot of experience in Northern Ca. Meanwhile I will buy bully sticks to keep him off my arm. I am now wearing a bandage and ugg long boots in hot weather LOL. Koda has not stop play biting and has mastered run , jump up and nail my arm .. Of course while bear hugging me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Don't get too excited until you get in a club and find out if it fits you and your dog.

It's a huge let down if things don't work out, this I know from experience. 




Kodakp said:


> He doesn't have much ball drive but will play fetch for just a couple of runs. But he has prey drive and chases cats, birds ect all day. But I see him loving all people so not sure if that will change anything. I never looked into anything but obdience and just loving him. Now I am looking up videos, sports and it's pretty **** cool!


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## mycobraracr

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh boy. You guys. Even when I repeat what experienced people/trainers tell me IRL I'm still getting it wrong.
> 
> Is it 5 o clock yet? I think I need to just go get a horse again..
> 
> Hehehe . :crazy:  :help:



What I say comes directly from my experiences. From what I've personally decoyed, owned and trained. That's why I put IME. People want to disagree. That's fine, it doesn't affect me at all.


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## Kodakp

I need to find a club near by. But I can definetly see the hectic type behavior. While why he is biting me and my feet.


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## Kodakp

I won't. Personally I think it scares me a little. I will start him out with the basic training then start popping my head into clubs if he seems to be headed that direction.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ya missed the smilies at the end of my post?



Lazy, not hectic, has been another complaint about WGSLs I've heard. 

It's just that the experiences people who work these dogs share are so differing. It's confusing as heck ya know?

Anyhow....this is going to turn into another WGSL v WL thread and I'm not going there, pretty sure you don't want to either....have a good day! 



mycobraracr said:


> What I say comes directly from my experiences. From what I've personally decoyed, owned and trained. That's why I put IME. People want to disagree. That's fine, it doesn't affect me at all.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup: have fun!




Kodakp said:


> I won't. Personally I think it scares me a little. I will start him out with the basic training then start popping my head into clubs if he seems to be headed that direction.


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## Kodakp

Thanks


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## mycobraracr

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ya missed the smilies at the end of my post?
> 
> 
> 
> Lazy, not hectic, has been another complaint about WGSLs I've heard.
> 
> It's just that the experiences people who work these dogs share are so differing. It's confusing as heck ya know?
> 
> Anyhow....this is going to turn into another WGSL v WL thread and I'm not going there, pretty sure you don't want to either....have a good day!



Got ya. The problem is, you have different ends of the spectrum with them. I've seen the super lazy SL's. In recent though with all the "SL's have no drive" topics, I've seen breeders try to introduce more drive into their breeding programs. Drive without the nerve/brain to support it turns into hectic behavior. That's what I'm seeing more of now. 

As for the more defense, I've seen this to. A dog that only works in defense is not a good thing to me. In a trial, the dog comes out in straight defense, is usually the first dog that will get ran.


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## mspiker03

Kodakp said:


> I have to find away to make him really work. He is starting to get through the sit, come, stay very quickly but cannot hold position that long. I have a new trainer lined up for June with a lot of experience in Northern Ca. Meanwhile I will buy bully sticks to keep him off my arm. I am now wearing a bandage and ugg long boots in hot weather LOL. Koda has not stop play biting and has mastered run , jump up and nail my arm .. Of course while bear hugging me.



Who/where is nor cal is your trainer? You can pm me. I train in N. Sac-ish


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## mycobraracr

I'm in Nor Cal as well.


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## mspiker03

mycobraracr said:


> I'm in Nor Cal as well.



You going to dogstock?


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## Liesje

Kodakp said:


> I won't. Personally I think it scares me a little. I will start him out with the basic training then start popping my head into clubs if he seems to be headed that direction.


If it interests you at all, I would start club shopping sooner rather than later. The foundation work is absolutely critical, especially when you are new to the sport and style of training, and already at somewhat of a disadvantage with a "black and red" dog. If you are doing basic training and obedience now, you will want to make sure your expectations for the behaviors and training style will not conflict with IPO. It's not just about the end result of demonstrating certain behaviors, but the process of getting there.

As to whether the dog can do it...only time and effort will tell. Find a good club, have the dog evaluated.


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## mspiker03

Actually if the OP is interested in bite work, dogstock might be a good place to go watch. It is the weekend of the 5th in Lincoln at Placer County Schh Club. I think that Saturday would be the day to go. There will be helpers from various clubs around Nor Cal there.


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## Carriesue

My boy is a show/work cross, he isn't able to do protection(lacking drive with some nerve issues) but when we're able to get back I still train with him anyways because he loves OB and showing promise with tracking. I'm not out to win nationals, I just like working with my dog and he's a great dog to learn the sport with.  I will be getting my working line sport prosect in two months and even with a dog more suited I plan to still train with him and plan to shoot for at least a BH but maybe some tracking and OB titles as well. It's all about my love of dogs and having that amazing bond that only comes from doing this sort of work with them. 

My boys half sister who is full showline however is doing a stellar job in IPO. She has drive and intensity and so far I haven't seen nerve problems with her. They are out there.  Just be prepared though that some clubs may be elitist you know what's... The first club I went to treated me terribly. Way to get more people in the sport!


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## mycobraracr

mspiker03 said:


> You going to dogstock?





No, it's my wife's birthday weekend. As much as she likes dog stuff, she wants to get out of town for a bit.


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## mspiker03

mycobraracr said:


> No, it's my wife's birthday weekend. As much as she likes dog stuff, she wants to get out of town for a bit.



Have a good time!

I am excited to go to Dogstock - it will be my first time.


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## mycobraracr

mspiker03 said:


> Have a good time!
> 
> I am excited to go to Dogstock - it will be my first time.



When are you coming out to my group?


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## carmspack

WesS said:


> Im sure a lot of show-line dogs who cant handle, are not bred or forced to title. Most owners certainly don't do it. Obviously it happens also where dog is forced into it even when a bad candidate. But the whole point is to not breed dogs that cant establish the 'minimum' criteria for a GSD. Because when you do, you fundamentally change what the GSD is. I think conformation has its uses, as pertaining to show-lines (Emphasis not just on results on the field, and how they do that work. But it was never meant to be a stand-alone judgement of the breed.
> 
> So I don't think its true that show-lines have to title in Europe or anywhere else. Only show-line gsd's that are fit for breeding do. Also why breed dogs with 'issues with nerves'.


 
nice thought , but not so . 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs

In order to breed , to have the progeny recognized and registered , in Europe , in Germany , the dogs do have to have an IPO title .
The breed has fundamentally changed http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

The sport has fundamentally changed http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4431-who-said-goldens-cant-do-schutzhund.html


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## GatorDog

WesS said:


> Im sure a lot of show-line dogs who cant handle, are not bred or forced to title. Most owners certainly don't do it. Obviously it happens also where dog is forced into it even when a bad candidate. But the whole point is to not breed dogs that cant establish the 'minimum' criteria for a GSD. Because when you do, you fundamentally change what the GSD is. I think conformation has its uses, as pertaining to show-lines (Emphasis not just on results on the field, and how they do that work. But it was never meant to be a stand-alone judgement of the breed.
> 
> So I don't think its true that show-lines have to title in Europe or anywhere else. Only show-line gsd's that are fit for breeding do. Also why breed dogs with 'issues with nerves'.


LOL. Check around in the actual real world of dog sport and not on the internet and you'll see how naive that idea is.


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## WesS

GatorDog said:


> LOL. Check around in the actual real world of dog sport and not on the internet and you'll see how naive that idea is.


I was referring specifically to show line breeding, and keeping a minimum working/temperament testing standard.


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## WesS

carmspack said:


> nice thought , but not so .
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs
> 
> In order to breed , to have the progeny recognized and registered , in Europe , in Germany , the dogs do have to have an IPO title .
> The breed has fundamentally changed http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html
> 
> The sport has fundamentally changed http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4431-who-said-goldens-cant-do-schutzhund.html


I cant understand german. That video is in german. Care to explain the video? You have it with subtitles?


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## Anubis_Star

Showlines in german have to have an IPO title. "Bar papers" are also very common in germany. Any title can easily be bought, and it's the reason we can post videos of top "ipo 3" siegers being run off the bite sleeve with a little bit of pressure time and time again


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## WesS

Anubis_Star said:


> Showlines in german have to have an IPO title. "Bar papers" are also very common in germany. Any title can easily be bought, and it's the reason we can post videos of top "ipo 3" siegers being run off the bite sleeve with a little bit of pressure time and time again


Need more info here please. So the IPO3 classification may mean nothing in the end? Are they not able to pass the IPO test legitimately? or do they buckle under 'more' pressure?


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## martemchik

WesS said:


> Need more info here please. So the IPO3 classification may mean nothing in the end? Are they not able to pass the IPO test legitimately? or do they buckle under 'more' pressure?


Get out there, work some dogs, watch other dogs get worked. You'll figure it out. Don't just believe every word you read on the interweb.


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## carmspack

the video is pretty much self explanatory . These are the show lines which are the economic power house which keep the whole thing going . Big bucks for tourism , big bucks for export / sales .
At the beginning you have a vet who cares for yet another young show line dog with sacral lumbar problems - a condition which is increasing (breeding selection / conformation) and is disregarded by the fancy. The SV knows full well what is going on . They are complicit in perpetuating the breeding of dogs , lines, with faulty sure to break down physical problems and dogs with faulty , embarrassing , not even close to the legendary ideal temperament and character.
The reporter gets in on conversations where people are in the know , and will prey (my word) on foreigners anxious to get on to the money generating band wagon.

It is about the $$$$$$.

There is a segment were working and police are questioning where they will get their good GSD from .

There is a lot of footage of animals walking around the ring , not even close to a natural canine movement , not even close to free and unrestricted movement . And there is much footage showing embarrassing bite work -- and these are "the top" at the top National event , not some local club -- "THE" dogs that will spawn the next generations for year to come.

reality .

just watch the video .


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## WesS

martemchik said:


> Get out there, work some dogs, watch other dogs get worked. You'll figure it out. Don't just believe every word you read on the interweb.


Did not ask a question for a criptic response, or to become your pom-pom girl.


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## martemchik

There is a constant, unnecessary spreading of information without much back up or proof behind it. The only way to learn some of these things is to get out there and get into the world of Schutzhund/IPO/breeding. Until you have done it, or are on your way to doing it, the "bashing" of any dog (even hypothetical) for having a "meaningless" title, when you don't actually know this to be the case through personal experience doesn't seem right to me.

Usually this amounts to WGSL bashing by people that just regurgitate information they've read online that is written by highly biased people with a clear agenda against those types of dogs.

It's also a "CHEERLEADER" - one that leads cheers...not chairs.


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## Liesje

WesS said:


> Need more info here please. So the IPO3 classification may mean nothing in the end? Are they not able to pass the IPO test legitimately? or do they buckle under 'more' pressure?


Regardless of lines, if someone wants to do SchH, like they are buying a dog knowing that is their goal, then they should seek out breeders and dogs who enjoy this venue and have success in it.

Many dogs have not passed tests legitimately and many just don't pass. Now I HAVE a show line dog (who is legitimately titled in Schutzhund as well as many other things), but I'm the first person to get discouraged by this sort of thing. The last west German show line event I was at, I saw a dog refuse to engage on the long bite (not just miss or come off and re-bite, but just refuse to bite) and after some whispering with the judge, the dog walked away with a pass and TSB-pronounced, was given a KKL for life. I was at this event with a friend who has a working line dog that she has owned and trained since puppyhood, worked very hard to earn her SchH title, go through all the right hoops correctly and legitimately (and not without some failed attempts along the way). She was very nervous for this event, but had done some preparation and did fantastic with her dog. It is embarrassing for me to have to try to explain to her why the other dog passed when he never bit and should be given the same rating as her, when she came prepared, her dog was very powerful (everyone clapped). I am not saying every dog has to be a SchH3 podium dog just to pass a breed survey, but they have to at least attempt to perform the tasks asked of them which have already been laughably watered down.


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## Anubis_Star

Of course there are WGSL with real titles, and dogs capable of doing the work well enough.

But there are plenty more that are NOT capable, physically or mentally, of a lot of the work. Yes, titles are easily bought all the time in germany. And even many WL imports to America probably have bought titles. Why spend the time and money training when some schmuck in 'Murica will pay 16,000$ for an IPO I stud! 

So at the end of the day, unless you know what you're looking for and can actually watch the dog work, titles do mean very little, especially IMO with SL dogs. It's not an insult against SLs, it's just a fact.

Top sieger shows in the country and they're getting run off the field!

When you breed ANYTHING, be it lab or GSD or horse (just look at halter horses) for conformation and looks alone, you tend to do so at a cost to working ability. The whole package should be considered, and if SL fanciers and breeders are insulted that anything but the whole package is considered of their dogs, then they need to get out there and work them and prove everyone that they are sound and stable and capable.

https://youtu.be/10-bn34-2fE


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## Blitzkrieg1

There is a vast difference between show judges and trial judges. Most trials around here are judged by show judges. 85 points Pronounced if fluffy can just grab the sleeve and hold on...somewhat.. 
Many have been shocked at just how poor the quality of their training and or dog is after making that switch...


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## mspiker03

mycobraracr said:


> When are you coming out to my group?



I do hope to soon. I especially want to work on OB at a different venue for both dogs. I am hoping to head down to the Bay Area again soon to help my parents out - will see if I can coordinate a visit!


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## mycobraracr

mspiker03 said:


> I do hope to soon. I especially want to work on OB at a different venue for both dogs. I am hoping to head down to the Bay Area again soon to help my parents out - will see if I can coordinate a visit!



We train Thursday nights and Sunday afternoons. Just let me know when you're thinking.


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## WesS

Anubis_Star said:


> Of course there are WGSL with real titles, and dogs capable of doing the work well enough.
> 
> But there are plenty more that are NOT capable, physically or mentally, of a lot of the work. Yes, titles are easily bought all the time in germany. And even many WL imports to America probably have bought titles. Why spend the time and money training when some schmuck in 'Murica will pay 16,000$ for an IPO I stud!
> 
> So at the end of the day, unless you know what you're looking for and can actually watch the dog work, titles do mean very little, especially IMO with SL dogs. It's not an insult against SLs, it's just a fact.
> 
> Top sieger shows in the country and they're getting run off the field!
> 
> When you breed ANYTHING, be it lab or GSD or horse (just look at halter horses) for conformation and looks alone, you tend to do so at a cost to working ability. The whole package should be considered, and if SL fanciers and breeders are insulted that anything but the whole package is considered of their dogs, then they need to get out there and work them and prove everyone that they are sound and stable and capable.
> 
> https://youtu.be/10-bn34-2fE


Thanks for the response. But could it not be said that some effort is better than none? At least some evidence that something is going into temperament testing?

Also with regards to that video, could it not be considered a blooper video? I.e. a couple of dogs did well. And that one, on that particular day, just did not perform? Kinda like scoring an own goal in football? (Soccer they call it in US I believe). It happens.Here is the thing. Working lines are bred to perform the work. They are pretty much a race car. Harder to drive, but uncompromising in performance?

A showline on the other hand, is a bit more for people, who are never going to compete, or do IPO. The title is more for consumers to know that their dog has met some standards. Its not really for the puppy itself, but more for the parents and lineage? I.e. showing its 'genetics' can handle some form of pressure, and conflicting drives. I.e. when to be restrained, when to engage. This inherently goes some way I imagine, in alleviating overly fearful dogs or overly weak nerved dogs from being bred and being a 'disaster waiting to happen'.

Now I know a typical response by some, is get on the field and watch/train. I think this is a bit obnoxious. I just spent significant time on another thread, explaining why there is 'imperfect information' to buyers. Basically what they are saying is you have to be 'in' on the system, to access this information. Which further drives that point of selecting a dog, should not be about being so intrically involved. (I don't need to be a mechanic to pick the right car for me.)

I think people are afraid to be open, because that when the bickering starts from different 'groups' of people defending their decisions. I think its a good conversation though in terms of getting more information, on what people think. When we talk showline, I think we are talking more 'mass market'. We are talking more mainstream. 
So if one can not gather information, from actively engaging with people involved. Who can they gather information from? I dont like going into 'constrained' environments, where Its one perspective. A plethora of perspectives is important. Because its only in disagreement, where one can analyse the reasoning, and perspectives of each trail of thought.


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## Blitzkrieg1

If you want a dog for work of any kind get a workingline or a mal.
If you want a dog for IPO get a WL or Mal
If you want a dog for showing get a SL.
If you want a dog for pet get a low drive WL or a SL

If you want to spend time, effort and money and work twice as hard for half the results get a SL for IPO.

If you want to make money breeding, buy an IPO 1 SL bitch and put her to whatever is black and red and winning shows in your area and have at it.

Simple enough? 

Dont forget to get out and work some dogs...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks for the clarification. :thumbup:



mycobraracr said:


> Got ya. The problem is, you have different ends of the spectrum with them. I've seen the super lazy SL's. In recent though with all the "SL's have no drive" topics, I've seen breeders try to introduce more drive into their breeding programs. Drive without the nerve/brain to support it turns into hectic behavior. That's what I'm seeing more of now.
> 
> As for the more defense, I've seen this to. A dog that only works in defense is not a good thing to me. In a trial, the dog comes out in straight defense, is usually the first dog that will get ran.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Blitz, a unicorn? My kingdom for a unicorn. Preferably pink and invisible, for the cute stealth factor.....


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## KathrynApril

Is that nino von tronje or a descendant of? I'm confused as I don't know what the "figlio di" means.


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## trcy

The club I was in had all show lines.


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## carmspack

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Blitz, a unicorn? My kingdom for a unicorn. Preferably pink and invisible, for the cute stealth factor.....


however ..... that is all prey play .
the decoy is running backwards , catching the dog , who is behind the decoy so not even eyeing him to dominate , there is zero pressure , zero threat ....


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## WesS

carmspack said:


> however ..... that is all prey play .
> the decoy is running backwards , catching the dog , who is behind the decoy so not even eyeing him to dominate , there is zero pressure , zero threat ....


Is that a bad thing? We are talking temperament of a family dog. How much threat do you need a pet gsd to take to be fit for a family setting? I can understand fight drive is important in protection, or real field work?

Just asking? Is play/prey drive not something desirable for a family pet?


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## Gwenhwyfair

In one way that's good, I posted it because the dog was not all defense. So I was right about that..I am learning....it's not defense.....so...

 

Also posted it for a little joke with Blitz.....


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## Gwenhwyfair

KathrynApril said:


> Is that nino von tronje or a descendant of? I'm confused as I don't know what the "figlio di" means.


Niño von Tronje Son. I had to do google translate too when I found the video.


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## KathrynApril

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Niño von Tronje Son. I had to do google translate too when I found the video.


Thanks


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## martemchik

WesS said:


> Is that a bad thing? We are talking temperament of a family dog. How much threat do you need a pet gsd to take to be fit for a family setting? I can understand fight drive is important in protection, or real field work?
> 
> Just asking? Is play/prey drive not something desirable for a family pet?


Nope, not a bad thing at all. It's actually nice to see a helper that understands what the dog needs and that more pressure isn't it. Defense work is much easier when it comes to helper work. Anyone can threaten a dog, stand in front of a dog, made the dog react to a threat. Prey work actually takes a lot more timing and a lot more thinking on the part of the helper because you're not "forcing" the dog into a corner.

The old school thought process that a dog needs to be beat up, threatened, whipped, hit, in order to prove how great it is, is ancient. Most people that think that way, think it because their own dogs aren't capable of doing it and saying "the sport isn't like it used to be" is just an excuse to not have to work their own dogs. Their dog can't get qualifying scores because there's not enough pressure and the dog is "bored." Yeah...right. That's exactly it. That's like saying Michael Jordan would lose to a 10 year old because the competition wouldn't be up at his level.

This sport would be dead if all that a helper did was run at every dog that came onto the field and their only goal was to run the dog. Training, is just that, training. 

It's funny...anyone that makes those statements about dogs or videos like that, never posts videos of their own dogs getting "highly pressured" and "fighting back." Wonder why...


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## Mister C

martemchik said:


> It's funny...anyone that makes those statements about dogs or videos like that, never posts videos of their own dogs getting "highly pressured" and "fighting back." Wonder why...


You seem to talk from experience and make plenty of your own statements (which differ from the ones you are talking about above, I realize).

But I haven't seen any of your videos. Maybe I missed them. Would love to see you and your dogs in action. Mind sharing with the board?


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## martemchik

Feel free to point out where I said that my dogs, or dogs from 40 years ago are so much better than the dogs today, and I'll be more than happy to post a video for you.

I don't make blanket statements about how this training is bad, or that training is bad, that these dogs are terrible, those dogs aren't what they should be. If I did...I'd prove it.

Those that need to, have seen my training. I don't make myself out to be something I'm not.

Want to point out how a certain type of helper work is bad? Go ahead and show the rest of us how it should be done. Let's see the results of the "better" training. Why just bash someone's work without anything to back it up? Show respect for people that are doing something with their dog. Until you've tried to do it, and lets say, until you've done it recently, making comments about how it's wrong, is out of line.


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## carmspack

it is a bad thing because we are not talking about pets , these are the dogs that will form the back bone of breeding programmes.

This is not what the breed was , is , nor should be .

Stress runs throughout all of life . These dogs don't cope . 

Some can't cope with the simple day to day - they are reactive , it affects them physically with premature aging or accelerated aging . 

Is the GSD a joke ? Have you seen videos where a dog is in the family car with some guy approaching in a determined manner , not even overt threat , just purposeful and the dog wants to jump out of the window and get out the situation.

A good honest solid dog with correct temperament and character can be an outstanding pet never causing concern , and giving comfort to know that you have him watching your back and your home.

This is a working breed. This is a USEFUL breed . Let us never forget this. Truly and not just platitudes which make for nice selling points. 

How ironic that the youtube I provided is titled GSD Documentary - the end of a German Legend !


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## Blitzkrieg1

Not a unicorn, that is an artfully done video to maximize entry speed and grips to show the dog to his best advantage. Either for sale or stud. Im betting the decoy worked the dog like this for a very good reason.


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## Lilie

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If you want a dog for work of any kind get a workingline or a mal.
> If you want a dog for IPO get a WL or Mal
> If you want a dog for showing get a SL.
> If you want a dog for pet get a low drive WL or a SL
> 
> If you want to spend time, effort and money and work twice as hard for half the results get a SL for IPO.
> 
> If you want to make money breeding, buy an IPO 1 SL bitch and put her to whatever is black and red and winning shows in your area and have at it.
> 
> Simple enough?
> 
> Dont forget to get out and work some dogs...


And yet they choose it ignore that obvious.....


----------



## Steve Strom

> Defense work is much easier when it comes to helper work. Anyone can threaten a dog, stand in front of a dog, made the dog react to a threat. Prey work actually takes a lot more timing and a lot more thinking on the part of the helper because you're not "forcing" the dog into a corner.


I think that's backwards, to be honest Max. Even a clod like me can make misses, run by, toss a sleeve. What's the worst that happens? Dog gets a poor grip or misses when he wasn't supposed to? Start over. 

Working that aggression, that's where the skill comes in. That's where the wheels come off if you aren't skilled in reading the dog. "Forcing" into a corner is a little too simplistic.


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## Gwenhwyfair

We don't know that for sure, c'mon. (Btw that could be said of any video no matter the dog...)

At least the dog was energetic and eager.

But o.k. Another unicorn down vote. Dang. 




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Not a unicorn, that is an artfully done video to maximize entry speed and grips to show the dog to his best advantage. Either for sale or stud. Im betting the decoy worked the dog like this for a very good reason.


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## martemchik

Steve Strom said:


> I think that's backwards, to be honest Max. Even a clod like me can make misses, run by, toss a sleeve. What's the worst that happens? Dog gets a poor grip or misses when he wasn't supposed to? Start over.
> 
> 
> 
> Working that aggression, that's where the skill comes in. That's where the wheels come off if you aren't skilled in reading the dog. "Forcing" into a corner is a little too simplistic.



To each their own, if you believe that all prey work is misses and tossing sleeves, that's your opinion and you can run with it.

"Reading the dog" becomes an issue when you decide to run the dog instead of training it. A dog doesn't constantly have to be in a state of aggression to do Schutzhund or prove its nerve strength.

And yes, I did over simplify defense work, but truthfully, the majority of helper work you still see today, is defense, which is why a lot of dogs still don't get anywhere.


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## Steve Strom

Yeah, ok.


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## carmspack

A dog who is in a constant state of aggression is not stable.

I don't agree at all about the majority of helper work is in defense -- I see prey / play .

Defense is NOT fight drive . It is the fight drive , that quiet authority , the dog exerting its will to dominate a threat or situation . That is what is missing from the breed today. When a herding dog exerts its power to bring a situation into control it is not working in prey and it is not working in defense . 

Maybe things are worse than I imagined them.


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## martemchik

Hard to know how things really are when all you're doing is imagining them.


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## lsatov

I disagree that defense is easier work for a helper but we are not talking about defense drive we are talking about fight drive which is even more difficult for the helper. a dog in fight drive is not backing down it is not about fight or flight it is about fight. The helper must be able to read the dog no the limits, be able to transition from prey to fight and be fast and agile.

My dog is worked in fight drive, most helpers want to work her in prey, easier for them. She can play that game and does get high scores and pronounced but if she is in fight drive the intensity the bite the domination is astonishing. And you do not back her into a corner that is where she will put you. Yet perfectly clear headed, handler sensitive I do not have to yell, outs are clean. It is all about the balance sometimes difficult to manage from either end of the spectrum. 

I took me along time to find a few helpers that 1 can read dogs understand what they are seeing and help the dog and have many tools in their tool box. Never have to use a whip but watch your fingers. She is worked on a flat collar or harness, never used a pinch The helper is not her friend, yet when we are done we are done, excellent side and back transport.

I know some showline that do IPO and do get titles. but the picture is very different from a dog that is in fight drive. They complete the exercises.

My dog very easy to live with when not training is a pet dog/farm dog, Very social welcomes visitor appropriately.

Where I live good helpers that really understand the dogs are few and far between and most work their dogs in prey. In Ontario many dogs will get IPO title at club level that maybe should not but they want to encourage people to stay in the sport and learn. Their are pros and cons to this with anything.

Just my opinion and experience, I am not an experienced but I am always learning.


----------



## martemchik

lsatov said:


> I disagree that defense is easier work for a helper but we are not talking about defense drive we are talking about fight drive which is even more difficult for the helper. a dog in fight drive is not backing down it is not about fight or flight it is about fight. The helper must be able to read the dog no the limits, be able to transition from prey to fight and be fast and agile.
> 
> My dog is worked in fight drive, most helpers want to work her in prey, easier for them. She can play that game and does get high scores and pronounced but if she is in fight drive the intensity the bite the domination is astonishing. And you do not back her into a corner that is where she will put you. Yet perfectly clear headed, handler sensitive I do not have to yell, outs are clean. It is all about the balance sometimes difficult to manage from either end of the spectrum.
> 
> I took me along time to find a few helpers that 1 can read dogs understand what they are seeing and help the dog and have many tools in their tool box. Never have to use a whip but watch your fingers. She is worked on a flat collar or harness, never used a pinch The helper is not her friend, yet when we are done we are done, excellent side and back transport.
> 
> I know some showline that do IPO and do get titles. but the picture is very different from a dog that is in fight drive. They complete the exercises.
> 
> My dog very easy to live with when not training is a pet dog/farm dog, Very social welcomes visitor appropriately.
> 
> Where I live good helpers that really understand the dogs are few and far between and most work their dogs in prey. In Ontario many dogs will get IPO title at club level that maybe should not but they want to encourage people to stay in the sport and learn. Their are pros and cons to this with anything.
> 
> Just my opinion and experience, I am not an experienced but I am always learning.


Can you explain how a helper puts your dog in "fight drive" without fighting your dog? How does your dog, enter a blind and get into "fight drive" without being allowed to touch or dominate a helper? What is the interaction between helper and dog like, and how does that transfer to a Schutzhund field?


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## carmspack

domination is in posture and eye contact and bark pitch , grip natural and deep and hard .

see too many dogs that enter , grab the sleeve and tug the sleeve like some booty toy 

often the dog with fight will bang into the decoy , full hard body contact (not neck stretched two feet away) , and drive INTO the decoy pushing him backwards 

Vandal has spent a great deal of time sharing her knowledge from both sides of fight work


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## carmspack

the decoy also brings his dominant attitude , the body posture , the glare of direct eye contact , the stillness 

too many decoys jumping around like monkeys


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> the decoy also brings his dominant attitude , the body posture , the glare of direct eye contact , the stillness
> 
> too many decoys jumping around like monkeys


Thanks for the explanation of how to work a dog in DEFENSE.

I haven't seen a single helper "jump around like a monkey" at any of the Schutzhund trials I've been to. Club, regional, national trials over the past few years. Not a single helper has moved erratically, or improperly by the USCA rule book. Must a Canadian problem. I've read the rule book over in the past couple of weeks, and "jump around like a monkey" is not a permissible action by a helper in a trial. You might want to take this up with your helper committee in Canada. They should really work on fixing that issue.


----------



## lsatov

Can you explain how a helper puts your dog in "fight drive" without fighting your dog? How does your dog, enter a blind and get into "fight drive" without being allowed to touch or dominate a helper? What is the interaction between helper and dog like, and how does that transfer to a Schutzhund.[/B]

Good questions will try to answer to the best of my ability but I am new to this and just starting to understand as it relates to my dog, Every dog is different.

Will answer last question first transfers very easily on an IPO field, it is about balance allowing freedom but establishing some rules at the right time. In the beginning we wanted her to come in and hit the decoy in the blind show domination. and push him or her back then when the time was right introduced some rules. She is very clear headed and handler sensitive she responds quickly. Her bark and hold she is in as close as she can get.

First question tough for me to answer are you referring to now or in the beginning of her training. Now she knows her job and recognizes the picture and she loves the fight.She has always had fight drive it is just there. She transitions herself, searches the blinds in prey but as she approaches the blind she transitions herself. She was taught to run blinds not in the traditional way was taught by a ring sport decoy. She never knows what blind the decoy is in so she will transition from prey to fight as she approaches, her body posture changes. Her searches are tight and fast. but she is right side dominant and blinds on the left she searches bottom to top, and on the right top to bottom

2nd question what is the interaction between dog and helper, When and where? in the blind on the field during the transport, courage test? When she was learning or now in the present.

May not get back to you tonight I am going to Regionals


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## mycobraracr

WesS said:


> Is that a bad thing? We are talking temperament of a family dog. How much threat do you need a pet gsd to take to be fit for a family setting? I can understand fight drive is important in protection, or real field work?
> 
> 
> 
> Just asking? Is play/prey drive not something desirable for a family pet?




A dog than has the solid nerve that can handle pressure, can handle every day stressors as well. Kids throwing things, tugging on ears, yelling, screaming, things out in the environment. Protection work tells you a lot more about the dog than protecting. That's what so many fail to see.


----------



## WesS

mycobraracr said:


> A dog than has the solid nerve that can handle pressure, can handle every day stressors as well. Kids throwing things, tugging on ears, yelling, screaming, things out in the environment. Protection work tells you a lot more about the dog than protecting. That's what so many fail to see.


Ok nice. These are the type of answers I am looking for. What are the ideal drives for an ideal family pet GSD. Who can be trained well and engaged (For family, fun, not competition). 

I honestly believe the temperament testing and work done, reflects on the family GSD's we chose. (I have come to the conclusion, that I will need to watch the dogs, based on what people have said with regards to selection of breeder, but that is not enough, without some idea of what to look for).

I am not making statements now. I am just throwing ideas logical in my head to spurn conversation, and learn more. Your thinking makes sense. So you need fight drive, for solid nerve? On the other hand, should a dog with extreme 'fight drive' one day attack god forbid... The results could be much more severe? 

Whilst a dog bred with defence drives might be more volatile as a family pet? Can a dog who is bred with too much of a focus on work? or sport, be bred to excel in those aspects, but be more of a volatile dog as a family pet?

Looking for unbiased answers. Obviously nobody can generalise completely. I also believe identifying drives for the optimal family GSD, can be challenging compared to identifying drives required to excel in your sports/work.

Could 'minimal pressure on the dog' replicate the stressors of everyday family life? (Im sure police dogs for example, have to be able to take a lot more of a beating, I mean a kid pulling a dogs, ears, vs an assailant kicking the dog..) Now I understand you have to be responsible too and manage the dogs. But breeding also plays a role.

Us consumers and family pet owners have incomplete information. So I would really like to know more on what people with experience think.


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## onyx'girl

pet dogs need to have a balance of nerves....as most pet owners aren't versed in the higher skills of training and if they get a dog with less than stellar nerves, they are over their head. Today on a local GSD page, a new to the breed owner of an 11 week old pup is extremely concerned as 'she is a bit headstrong and wants to be alpha (according to vet). She is biting and growling a bit more than we'd like with not much success on correcting.'
11 weeks!!! and the owner is already freaking. She went on to say the vet called a trainer while they were at their appt because the puppy was being difficult. ugh.


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## lsatov

WesS

I agree with Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
A dog than has the solid nerve that can handle pressure, can handle every day stressors as well. Kids throwing things, tugging on ears, yelling, screaming, things out in the environment. Protection work tells you a lot more about the dog than protecting. That's what so many fail to see.

I can just tell you about my dog and personal experience. Being a pet dog I think is the most difficult of jobs. In most pet homes there is no black or white just grey open for interpretation. Lead to problems. My dog has solid nerves she is a great pet, children can pull her ears even fall on her. She gets up and walks away. But would never leave her unsupervised around young kids too many things can happen. My 97 year old mother can walk her, she is very protective of my mom but also respectful of her fragility, they play fetch and tug and she is very gentle with her Dogs that are stable and have fight drive differentiate what is a threat and what is not. but this brings us into another topic of thresholds different topic but feeds into fight/defense.

I can walk my dog in the city with many strange characters noises and sounds do not phase her.. My dog needs to work it does not matter what the work is something that engages them mentally and physically and tired dog is a good dog

Good luck


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## RockyK9

martemchik said:


> Thanks for the explanation of how to work a dog in DEFENSE.
> 
> I haven't seen a single helper "jump around like a monkey" at any of the Schutzhund trials I've been to. Club, regional, national trials over the past few years. Not a single helper has moved erratically, or improperly by the USCA rule book. Must a Canadian problem. I've read the rule book over in the past couple of weeks, and "jump around like a monkey" is not a permissible action by a helper in a trial. You might want to take this up with your helper committee in Canada. They should really work on fixing that issue.


 Oh please , you really don't know what Carmen was referring too in how helpers move around excessively at times? Get real.. And I think you should stop with the "Canadian" negative references. It's bashing and I think may be against board rules. When one resorts to these types of insults it is certainly telling.


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## lhczth

martemchik said:


> Can you explain how a helper puts your dog in "fight drive" without fighting your dog? How does your dog, enter a blind and get into "fight drive" without being allowed to touch or dominate a helper? What is the interaction between helper and dog like, and how does that transfer to a Schutzhund field?



A dog does not need to touch the helper to dominate and control them. How does a helper put a dog into fight? They don't. It is innate in these dogs. The helper's job is to channel the drive and the handler's to show the dog what is allowed and what isn't. I am not articulate enough to explain it any other way. Of course it is easier to dismiss the idea of a dog working out of fight when one has never seen or worked a dog like this.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In bold. There are breeds that have little to no fight drive but still tolerate a lot of stressors. A well bred Lab comes to mind. **. Will put up with gun fire, kids running around screaming and yelling, safe and stable around people and other dogs...and so on.

If you get a nice workingline GSD be prepared to exercise those "extra" drives they bring to the table.

Breaks my heart when I see WLs in homes that don't understand what they have.....


(**btw- this may well lead into the "golden with a GSD coat" discussion, you've been warned. . )




WesS said:


> Ok nice. These are the type of answers I am looking for. What are the ideal drives for an ideal family pet GSD. Who can be trained well and engaged (For family, fun, not competition).
> 
> I honestly believe the temperament testing and work done, reflects on the family GSD's we chose. (I have come to the conclusion, that I will need to watch the dogs, based on what people have said with regards to selection of breeder, but that is not enough, without some idea of what to look for).
> 
> I am not making statements now. I am just throwing ideas logical in my head to spurn conversation, and learn more. Your thinking makes sense. *So you need fight drive, for solid nerve?* On the other hand, should a dog with extreme 'fight drive' one day attack god forbid... The results could be much more severe?
> 
> Whilst a dog bred with defence drives might be more volatile as a family pet? Can a dog who is bred with too much of a focus on work? or sport, be bred to excel in those aspects, but be more of a volatile dog as a family pet?
> 
> Looking for unbiased answers. Obviously nobody can generalise completely. I also believe identifying drives for the optimal family GSD, can be challenging compared to identifying drives required to excel in your sports/work.
> 
> Could 'minimal pressure on the dog' replicate the stressors of everyday family life? (Im sure police dogs for example, have to be able to take a lot more of a beating, I mean a kid pulling a dogs, ears, vs an assailant kicking the dog..) Now I understand you have to be responsible too and manage the dogs. But breeding also plays a role.
> 
> Us consumers and family pet owners have incomplete information. So I would really like to know more on what people with experience think.


----------



## Anubis_Star

WesS said:


> Thanks for the response. But could it not be said that some effort is better than none? At least some evidence that something is going into temperament testing?
> 
> Also with regards to that video, could it not be considered a blooper video? I.e. a couple of dogs did well. And that one, on that particular day, just did not perform? Kinda like scoring an own goal in football? (Soccer they call it in US I believe). It happens.Here is the thing. Working lines are bred to perform the work. They are pretty much a race car. Harder to drive, but uncompromising in performance?
> 
> A showline on the other hand, is a bit more for people, who are never going to compete, or do IPO. The title is more for consumers to know that their dog has met some standards. Its not really for the puppy itself, but more for the parents and lineage? I.e. showing its 'genetics' can handle some form of pressure, and conflicting drives. I.e. when to be restrained, when to engage. This inherently goes some way I imagine, in alleviating overly fearful dogs or overly weak nerved dogs from being bred and being a 'disaster waiting to happen'.
> 
> Now I know a typical response by some, is get on the field and watch/train. I think this is a bit obnoxious. I just spent significant time on another thread, explaining why there is 'imperfect information' to buyers. Basically what they are saying is you have to be 'in' on the system, to access this information. Which further drives that point of selecting a dog, should not be about being so intrically involved. (I don't need to be a mechanic to pick the right car for me.)
> 
> I think people are afraid to be open, because that when the bickering starts from different 'groups' of people defending their decisions. I think its a good conversation though in terms of getting more information, on what people think. When we talk showline, I think we are talking more 'mass market'. We are talking more mainstream.
> So if one can not gather information, from actively engaging with people involved. Who can they gather information from? I dont like going into 'constrained' environments, where Its one perspective. A plethora of perspectives is important. Because its only in disagreement, where one can analyse the reasoning, and perspectives of each trail of thought.


That video I posted is MULTIPLE dogs, not just 1.

And it all comes down to the same old beat to death argument - what is the GSD, a WORKING dog, suppose to be? If you can't handle that, why should you be able to water it down to suit your lifestyle?


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## Anubis_Star

martemchik said:


> Nope, not a bad thing at all. It's actually nice to see a helper that understands what the dog needs and that more pressure isn't it. Defense work is much easier when it comes to helper work. Anyone can threaten a dog, stand in front of a dog, made the dog react to a threat. Prey work actually takes a lot more timing and a lot more thinking on the part of the helper because you're not "forcing" the dog into a corner.
> 
> The old school thought process that a dog needs to be beat up, threatened, whipped, hit, in order to prove how great it is, is ancient. Most people that think that way, think it because their own dogs aren't capable of doing it and saying "the sport isn't like it used to be" is just an excuse to not have to work their own dogs. Their dog can't get qualifying scores because there's not enough pressure and the dog is "bored." Yeah...right. That's exactly it. That's like saying Michael Jordan would lose to a 10 year old because the competition wouldn't be up at his level.
> 
> This sport would be dead if all that a helper did was run at every dog that came onto the field and their only goal was to run the dog. Training, is just that, training.
> 
> It's funny...anyone that makes those statements about dogs or videos like that, never posts videos of their own dogs getting "highly pressured" and "fighting back." Wonder why...


Ok, I'll post a video of mine. I'm a noob and don't have any clue what I'm doing half the time. We're far from the best team out there. But at least my doofus can take some eye contact or a stick hit without running off the bite  and I get it, he lacks a lot of the drive to get into it without pressure. Which is why my decoy has joked he would sell him for a PP dog and buy 3 sport dogs, haha

I understand training and building up a dog's confident. But if the decoy can't even make eye contact with your dog for fear of the dog not biting... maybe you should rethink both training that dog, or breeding it, etc...


http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=qv49TN-RNGI


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## Jarkko

carmspack said:


> I guess the answer would be , where are you? If you were in Europe it would be necessary for the "show line" dog to train and title in IPO as part of the breeding-pass.


Europe is a large place. In Finland SL and WL dogs live in the completely separate universe, so to speak. Yes, we also do have the breeding-pass test, which requires at least IPO1, but it is not that important. Almost all SL dogs are bred without that test. The show continues regardless of these tests. A good SL dog in IPO trial is actually such a freak of nature that everybody knows that by the name. But there are some, of course.

In Germany, it is pretty much the same, but they do have these dogs trialed. In many other countries people don't care anymore .

Did you know that FCI is now discussing about changing the rules of IPO1 so that trialing of more dogs becomes reality? Almost all of the control work is going to be missing in the trial, if that goes through. So basically you just send the dog to blind, drag him to attack, no control. In my experience, the control work is what really separates good dogs from not so good. Almost all dogs can be taught some level of guard and attack, at least the picture of it. I think this change is welcome, then everybody knows IPO1 is something else IPO3.


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## lhczth

That is probably why they eliminated the old way of disarming of the helper. It required a level of control and for the dog to maintain drive while under control. Gotta make it easier so everyone can play.  The FCI, though, is an all breed show organization that offers sports for all. They don't care about testing working dogs.


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## Colie CVT

I'll bite a bit here, since I am honestly curious to what those whom I hold with respect in this forum have to say about my girl. 

Leia is from show lines. Leia is white. Leia has been bred three times (never by me). She was raised in a mostly kennel at a breeder type of situation, though she lived with a family for a year. I got her because I wanted another shepherd, and I wanted to start learning more about IPO and other sports that I was interested in. And given that I worked in a cruddy area, I was hoping to have a dog who would do a bark and hold, act defensive when I was out in the dark by myself. (Which is kind of sad since there's a police station about 200 ft down the road from my work)

Leia didn't start bitework until she was almost five years old. She got injured and spent some time recovering. And currently now, the decoy I was working with - who has been doing it for a long time in both europe and here in the US - is doing master's work up at WSU, so we haven't done it in awhile. I can say, I started out hoping to learn (and I have so much!) and we kept doing it because of how much she loves it and how much I enjoy it.  We're not impressive, we run into the bite now due to her previous injury (which came when she hit the end of the leash and flipped herself) and I don't drop the leash because we are fairly sure she'll bite the decoy, and I do like the guy lol.

Not in any order, and since Leia megabombed her instinct test, the decoy decided to start her in my SUV to see if we could get defense from her.

Video
Video
Video
Video
Video
Video
Video
Video

They aren't really in any order. I'm learning in all these and still am. But I figure here's a SL dog doing bitework who isn't aiming for a sport, but just genuinely enjoys getting to yell and bite.


----------



## RockyK9

lsatov said:


> WesS
> 
> I agree with Originally Posted by mycobraracr View Post
> A dog than has the solid nerve that can handle pressure, can handle every day stressors as well. Kids throwing things, tugging on ears, yelling, screaming, things out in the environment. Protection work tells you a lot more about the dog than protecting. That's what so many fail to see.
> 
> I can just tell you about my dog and personal experience. Being a pet dog I think is the most difficult of jobs. In most pet homes there is no black or white just grey open for interpretation. Lead to problems. My dog has solid nerves she is a great pet, children can pull her ears even fall on her. She gets up and walks away. But would never leave her unsupervised around young kids too many things can happen. My 97 year old mother can walk her, she is very protective of my mom but also respectful of her fragility, they play fetch and tug and she is very gentle with her Dogs that are stable and have fight drive differentiate what is a threat and what is not. but this brings us into another topic of thresholds different topic but feeds into fight/defense.
> 
> I can walk my dog in the city with many strange characters noises and sounds do not phase her.. My dog needs to work it does not matter what the work is something that engages them mentally and physically and tired dog is a good dog
> 
> Good luck





Anubis_Star said:


> Ok, I'll post a video of mine. I'm a noob and don't have any clue what I'm doing half the time. We're far from the best team out there. But at least my doofus can take some eye contact or a stick hit without running off the bite  and I get it, he lacks a lot of the drive to get into it without pressure. Which is why my decoy has joked he would sell him for a PP dog and buy 3 sport dogs, haha
> 
> I understand training and building up a dog's confident. But if the decoy can't even make eye contact with your dog for fear of the dog not biting... maybe you should rethink both training that dog, or breeding it, etc...
> 
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=qv49TN-RNGI


 Looks like a really nice dog to me. Maybe lacks a bit of prey you tend to see in sport nowadays but I don't think that really makes him a better PP dog candidate as your helper mentioned. I saw a little defense but not much pressure either . Dog looked like it was having fun.I am sure he can do well and have fun in whatever you decide.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah. No one will accuse Leia of being fixated on the sleeve.


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## Kodakp

I need to catch up! Wow I missed a lot.


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## Kodakp

Wow I need to catch up! I am from SF so not that far from Sacramento but far enough not to go there on a regular basis.


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## Kodakp

Where would you see prey drive? How he attacks the sleeve? I am new to this so not sure..


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## Colie CVT

Only way to get Leia to hold the sleeve when it's slipped is to have the decoy run and let her chase him lol. Soon as we stop, it's on the ground and her attention is on where he went lol. We call it a good day if she holds it or shakes it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Anubis the WL male looks decent, I think better work from the helper and handler would achieve a different picture. However, for PP he looks good.


The white dog was not bad especially considering the genetics. There are many worse SL males and females being bred daily. No good for IPO but I like her for low level pp. I would expose her to some progressive pressure and build her some more through that without worrying to much about grips and focus more on her commitment to remaining engaged.


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Anubis the WL male looks decent, I think better work from the helper and handler would achieve a different picture. However, for PP he looks good.



And what different picture would that be?

And what is a low level personal protection dog?


----------



## Jarkko

lhczth said:


> The FCI, though, is an all breed show organization that offers sports for all. They don't care about testing working dogs.


Mkay... But if they change the rules for IPO1, then those are the rules for IPO1. I still trust much more on these standardized tests than any "backyard" test or talk in the interwebs. I mean everybody thinks their dog is the killer. If the dog has "it", it will be visible in IPO test, at least for those who want to see.


----------



## WesS

Jarkko said:


> Mkay... But if they change the rules for IPO1, then those are the rules for IPO1. I still trust much more on these standardized tests than any "backyard" test or talk in the interwebs. I mean everybody thinks their dog is the killer. If the dog has "it", it will be visible in IPO test, at least for those who want to see.







I would absolutely crap myself if this dog ever came at me. Just saying. That would traumatise me.


----------



## Anubis_Star

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Anubis the WL male looks decent, I think better work from the helper and handler would achieve a different picture. However, for PP he looks good.


 Thank you. I know if he had an experienced handler the picture would be very different. But he's my first WL and my first sport dog and he's very forgiving for my training mistakes and I couldn't be happier with him :wub:


----------



## RockyK9

Mrs.P said:


> And what different picture would that be?
> 
> And what is a low level personal protection dog?


 I would be curious to know this as well


----------



## Baillif

WesS said:


> I would absolutely crap myself if this dog ever came at me. Just saying. That would traumatise me.


Man that first catch was a terrible catch. Id have been pissed if my dog got brick walled like that. Super unsafe.


----------



## Sunflowers

Mrs.P said:


> And what is a low level personal protection dog?


Ill take a stab at it: it's a Dachshund trained in PSA! :wild:


----------



## lhczth

Jarkko said:


> Mkay... But if they change the rules for IPO1, then those are the rules for IPO1. I still trust much more on these standardized tests than any "backyard" test or talk in the interwebs. I mean everybody thinks their dog is the killer. If the dog has "it", it will be visible in IPO test, at least for those who want to see.


I agree with you (note my signature of titled dogs) though, unfortunately, with the way they have weakened IPO we need to do more outside testing than we used to. 

The FCI wanted to remove the stick hits because it is objectionable to some countries. Their reasoning, IPO in most countries is sport and not a breed test. It will get to the point where so much of the test, the pressure, is removed that, no matter how much we wish differently, IPO will tell us very little about the dogs as working dogs.


----------



## Jarkko

lhczth said:


> The FCI wanted to remove the stick hits because it is objectionable to some countries. Their reasoning, IPO in most countries is sport and not a breed test. It will get to the point where so much of the test, the pressure, is removed that, no matter how much we wish differently, IPO will tell us very little about the dogs as working dogs.


Yes, unfortunately title without seeing the performance doesn't tell much, even more so after these proposed changes (if they ever happen). But if the dog is trained properly, then of course the rules don't matter that much. This is why we have different contests for each breed. GSD judges ideally want to see GSD-like performance etc. When GSD people start to change the criteria for judging guard etc. then we are in real trouble.


----------



## lhczth

It already has changed.


----------



## WesS

lhczth said:


> It already has changed.


Is IPO and Schutzhund titles of equal standing? Is everything identical? Schutzhund just being the std. in Germany?


----------



## WesS

Baillif said:


> Man that first catch was a terrible catch. Id have been pissed if my dog got brick walled like that. Super unsafe.


Must be hard at that speed though I Imagine. Also maybe training and the test is different for safety (i.e. More pressure on test)? Did he make a timing mistake? Or is that how it is meant to be?


----------



## onyx'girl

WesS said:


> Is IPO and Schutzhund titles of equal standing? Is everything identical? Schutzhund just being the std. in Germany?


change of name for the politically correct...No longer can you earn a 'Schutzhund' title....it is all IPO now.


----------



## martemchik

The majority of the training clubs I've been to, and many of the training videos I watch, definitely push the dog past what is seen on trial day. Most of the time this is done so that as a handler you know that if something weird happens during the trial by accident, your dog won't have an issue with it and will keep going. It's why I believe that the training is just as important as earning the title itself. But you do need the title, because the dogs I have known that have been trained from day 1 to title in IPO, when they don't get their titles, 99% of the time it's because the dog wasn't capable (even when considering the "test" is easier today). So I wouldn't trust a single breeder that gives the excuse, "I've seen the dog work in training and can tell you it can title, I just haven't because I don't need to." It's one weekend, usually just one day at a club trial, if that dog isn't titled, there are underlying issues.


----------



## WesS

Could something like this not be just as valuable, with or without titles?
Unedited footage of dogs working? (this isn't unedited, but you get my point.)






Seems to make more sense. Maybe there should be a video standard. Show off dogs, and what they are capable of? And see breeding parents actually work?

A video would probably mean more than the IPO certificate?

Or like previous video I posted?... 
Maybe uncut, unedited. I dont know. Seems the more breeder can show off about their dogs, and more info they can give the more you can trust that its a good place to go?


----------



## WesS

onyx'girl said:


> change of name for the politically correct...No longer can you earn a 'Schutzhund' title....it is all IPO now.


Thanks. I really thought they still had a Schutzhund association in germany? IPO was more for 'global standards'? But the germans didnt want to let go of their standards? Even though as far as I know its pretty much the same thing?

Am I wrong with that? Has that changed?


----------



## Baillif

WesS said:


> Must be hard at that speed though I Imagine. Also maybe training and the test is different for safety (i.e. More pressure on test)? Did he make a timing mistake? Or is that how it is meant to be?


No. The dog was jammed it's as simple as that. I don't know about the stick in knpv but I am pretty sure you are not supposed to feed it to the dog. Regardless of that you do not run at a dog running at you in a face attack and then stiffen up and fail to absorb the impact of the dog. He should have spun the dog or at the very least went limp to cushion the impact. His catch was very dangerous for both decoy and dog.


----------



## mycobraracr

KNPV decoys don't spin. Just like bad guys don't spin. The dogs body check as they come in to dissipate the energy. Look at the pictures. All four legs are on the decoy.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Low level PP dog, to me is a dog that can put on a good show at need and potentially bite in certain situations. The concern I would have about the dog in the vids I saw, is her getting to the bite through pressure and hanging in there if and when pressure occurs on the bite. Its not an atypical issue for a number SLs that I have seen working. 
If it was my dog I would work on building the dog through progressive exposure to more pressure prior to and on the bite.

For the WL I personally would want to see more entry speed, deeper grips and more intensity all around. Lots of ways to go about that but it comes down to having an excellent helper..one that can move around a bit when necessary..

I would stop giving him freebees and make him work harder for those grips. Get him frustrated, do some more confrontational work and transition into quick presentations and fadeaways that if missed will lead to NO bite. Show him the decoy can and will sting him if he doesnt bring it.
Give him different presentations at different angles and make him miss unless he goes in 100%. 
Table work would also be in order.

If his intensity level was higher I think you would find the grips would naturally deepen and you wouldnt have to spend to long focussing on the carry. Again, you go to a skilled decoy for this. 
Thats my opinion if this was my dog.


----------



## onyx'girl

mycobraracr said:


> KNPV decoys don't spin. Just like bad guys don't spin. The dogs body check as they come in to dissipate the energy. Look at the pictures. All four legs are on the decoy.


I went to a KNPV seminar a couple yrs ago with two LEO trainers from Bunkerdogs Holland, here are a few of my notes:

~For trialing, they discourage the dog from using the front feet while biting. Also when they train the biting, they encourage and reward the dog to push in, not tug/pull as the dog bites. This is best for the decoy, when working many dogs, the pulling/tugging down wears on the decoys back, the decoy prefers to stand upright and lean back some. It also will cause unsuspecting suspects to be pushed over with the dog on top, instead of the dog pulling him down.
During trial the foot positioning is noted, points will be taken if the dog using feet on the decoy.
~They also cannot use lines or collars during trials, everything is done off line.


----------



## mycobraracr

I'm not talking about feet on the decoy during the bite, I'm talking about on impact. The dogs body check just like a hockey player. 

You want dogs to push on the bite, because flesh tears. Blood is slippery for officers trying to grab hold, plus bio hazards.


----------



## onyx'girl

right, they are pushing in always, never pulling back...the dogs that are trialing are usually sold to depts and or breeding....they aren't always going on to more competitions. The trials are to prove they are street ready or worthy of breeding.


----------



## Baillif

Regardless of what the dog does he brick walled the dog in a way a safe catch never would have. Brick walling is an NVBK or Belgian ring thing but even they at least let the dog move them backward or do their attacks up an incline.


----------



## onyx'girl

the dogs can take it... obviously sad but true.


----------



## WesS

onyx'girl said:


> the dogs can take it... obviously sad but true.


Theoretically if you build it up correctly slowly. They can get efficient in that movement. I dont think they would be so intense on the bite, if they got so hurt every time they got a bite. There would be a pain response, disincentivising such behaviour during training.

Same way if you put an office clerk in professional hockey match. As opposed to a hockey player playing as a youth in safer minor leagues.

You work up to anything. Now you have a great point. What is too far? And when does it become unsafe to do routinely? People need to sit down and say wait a minute. There are too many injuries here. How can we train better? How can we make the economy of motion better and so forth.

The points mycobar has made are amazing. When they attack body on body, the dogs land on all fours after bite. If they hit the arm, they naturally swing. Obviously this requires very responsible training.


----------



## Colie CVT

Thank you for your reply, Blitz. It means a lot, and what you describe as low level PP is exactly my goals with Leia.  I was hoping for a dog who puts on a good show and will potentially bite if needed. She has good bite inhibition, and she is more confident within the car when it comes to doing what I hope for. We got a late start, but she is a serious and enthusiastic girl when it comes to what she sees as a job. The videos are a range of bites from the sessions, beginning to end of the bites. My roommate films and generally he isn't good at filming for me lol. >>

The trainer had been setting his hand on her face for a few moments when we had been working last, and wanted to try and do some hidden sleeve scenarios before he left, but time didn't line up. He tailors the training to the dog and your goals. Always explains what he's doing and why. I learned a lot watching as much as working with my girl. The variety of dogs each day made for fun.  Since Leia is not a sport dog, he was a good trainer to work with. I know doing a club with her wouldn't work for us. 

I did dabble a little with basic things with my younger dog, but I am realistic. Neither are dogs to work up to titles with. But it doesn't mean we cannot try and see what they like. The thing I love about Leia and Doyle is their willingness to try what I ask them to and seeing them excel on what they like to do. I know her breeder was super excited to see us working on PP. She is a good girl and it's obvious she likes it as much as I do lol. She gets so excited about it I have little doubt she'd push herself beyond what is safe. Which she is very good at doing with everything. 

I posted her working in hopes of honest feedback.  I know we're an atypical team lol. I wouldn't recommend SL for the work, but I can't see a problem with trying it to see what the dog will do and if they will enjoy it. Dogs like to work and they like to do activities with you. So I can't see the harm in trying if you're curious.


----------



## Colie CVT

I do have hopes for Leia as far as her response to pressure based on the day she hurt herself. We did get video that day, I'm just not sure if my roommate has it any longer. 

It was first bite out. She yelped as she hit the sleeve, but didn't stop. The decoy instantly slipped the sleeve and ran to get out of her sight (only way she calms down). She dropped the sleeve and stood on three legs, barking after him until the threat was gone. Only then did she start yelling more, spinning in a circle with her right leg up. I was terrified she had ruptured her CCL or slipped a disk/suffered an FCE to her back. We walked out of it and I tried to figure out what hurt. She wouldn't give me any good signs. -.-

Before we put her up, the trainer did threaten again, letting her bark and warn him off to keep her from associating the training with pain. She stood before me on three legs, ready to face the threat, even through the pain. Her heart is one of the things I love about her. She wants to work, she loves to work. 

I was in tears that day when I drove to my work to have her evaluated for the injury. I was afraid of what it meant, that we would have to stop training. She loves it so much. She tries so hard for me. But I won't let her do something that hurts her. Working as a vet tech always has you going for worse case scenario lol. Turned out she had pulled a muscle badly, which was a slow injury to heal from, but it didn't stop her. We got a warm up routine for her and changed it up to prevent reinjury, and there had been no trouble when she started up again.  No negative associations. If anything, she was over excited to work again lol.


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Low level PP dog, to me is a dog that can put on a good show at need and potentially bite in certain situations.



Oh neat then my mom has a 4lb Maltese low level pp dog


----------



## Jax08

Mrs.P said:


> Oh neat then my mom has a 4lb Maltese low level pp dog


:rofl: it's always the little ones you have to watch out for!


----------



## osito23

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: it's always the little ones you have to watch out for!


Yes, and often these dogs bite "for real." Gotta watch those toes.


----------



## Mrs.P

http://youtu.be/xeUhNhqkqWo

Extra artsy fartsy camera angles included! And music to 86 the 'colorful' background dialogue to keep it PG


----------



## Carriesue

Mrs.P said:


> http://youtu.be/xeUhNhqkqWo
> 
> Extra artsy fartsy camera angles included! And music to 86 the 'colorful' background dialogue to keep it PG


Love Enzo! Sorry I was also slightly distracted by his shiny raw fed coat. :wub::wub:


----------



## carmspack

Mrs.P said:


> http://youtu.be/xeUhNhqkqWo
> 
> Extra artsy fartsy camera angles included! And music to 86 the 'colorful' background dialogue to keep it PG


very nice work -- and he keeps his eyes open !

TeMar does have some nice dogs for work


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Nice. 

Thanks for sharing!!




Mrs.P said:


> http://youtu.be/xeUhNhqkqWo
> 
> Extra artsy fartsy camera angles included! And music to 86 the 'colorful' background dialogue to keep it PG


----------



## Sunflowers

I see a super pretty GSD who does some badass work!


----------



## Saphire

Yay Enzo!!!!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Thats a good sign, that she hung in there. Keep working the dog . 




Colie CVT said:


> I do have hopes for Leia as far as her response to pressure based on the day she hurt herself. We did get video that day, I'm just not sure if my roommate has it any longer.
> 
> It was first bite out. She yelped as she hit the sleeve, but didn't stop. The decoy instantly slipped the sleeve and ran to get out of her sight (only way she calms down). She dropped the sleeve and stood on three legs, barking after him until the threat was gone. Only then did she start yelling more, spinning in a circle with her right leg up. I was terrified she had ruptured her CCL or slipped a disk/suffered an FCE to her back. We walked out of it and I tried to figure out what hurt. She wouldn't give me any good signs. -.-
> 
> Before we put her up, the trainer did threaten again, letting her bark and warn him off to keep her from associating the training with pain. She stood before me on three legs, ready to face the threat, even through the pain. Her heart is one of the things I love about her. She wants to work, she loves to work.
> 
> I was in tears that day when I drove to my work to have her evaluated for the injury. I was afraid of what it meant, that we would have to stop training. She loves it so much. She tries so hard for me. But I won't let her do something that hurts her. Working as a vet tech always has you going for worse case scenario lol. Turned out she had pulled a muscle badly, which was a slow injury to heal from, but it didn't stop her. We got a warm up routine for her and changed it up to prevent reinjury, and there had been no trouble when she started up again.  No negative associations. If anything, she was over excited to work again lol.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> http://youtu.be/xeUhNhqkqWo
> 
> Extra artsy fartsy camera angles included! And music to 86 the 'colorful' background dialogue to keep it PG


Thats a nice SL..seems that kennel is doing some good things. The last Unicorn on here was from there too.


----------



## osito23

Good boy, Enzo!


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats a nice SL..seems that kennel is doing some good things. The last Unicorn on here was from there too.



Hrm there seems to be a correlation here if done correctly, breeding program, very possible?

Or is it the home they go to? Not as likely to be worked? Who knows. But broad and sweeping statements do not help anyone.


----------



## Mrs.P

Why can't it be "that's a nice working dog"


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> Hrm there seems to be a correlation here if done correctly, breeding program, very possible?
> 
> Or is it the home they go to? Not as likely to be worked? Who knows. But broad and sweeping statements do not help anyone.


 
I have seen SLs from a number of blood lines both in Canada and the States training. They all had dedicated handlers that went to the club, seminars etc. 
Unfortunately the dogs were what they were regardless. Training does not trump genetics. 
Many like the black and red dogs, many would work them if could do the work. Like dobermans the good ones are few and far between.

Misleading statements don't help anyone either .


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> Why can't it be "that's a nice working dog"


He is a SL correct? I am comparing him to other dogs I have seen and worked within that group. 

When we start comparing the dog to WLs and Mals doing the same work it changes the criteria somewhat..


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have seen SLs from a number of blood lines both in Canada and the States training. They all had dedicated handlers that went to the club, seminars etc.
> Unfortunately the dogs were what they were regardless. Training does not trump genetics.
> Many like the black and red dogs, many would work them if could do the work.



Never claimed to believe that regarding genetics. 



But Wait I thought genetic variation stinks? Same few wgsl's being bred over and over -not much unique about my guy's pedigree ... Hrm... peculiar


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> He is a SL correct? I am comparing him to other dogs I have seen and worked within that group.
> 
> When we start comparing the dog to WLs and Mals doing the same work it changes the criteria somewhat..



Let's not stretch this to mals/dutchies totally different animal there. 

What exactly is that criteria? Stop moving the target.


----------



## carmspack

I'll give it to you . That is a nice working dog.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> Let's not stretch this to mals/dutchies totally different animal there.
> 
> What exactly is that criteria? Stop moving the target.


Ok..compared to a WL doing the same work. Biting a suit with minimal control I see nothing remarkable. If he was a sable dog on a different thread I wouldnt have said anything.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> Never claimed to believe that regarding genetics.
> 
> 
> 
> But Wait I thought genetic variation stinks? Same few wgsl's being bred over and over -not much unique about my guy's pedigree ... Hrm... peculiar


I believe I mentioned that this kennel seems to have produced some decent dogs. Based on 3-4 dogs I have seen vids of from there.

If you are talking about line breeding yes I find it preferable to outcrosses and the kenels that have the most success tend to follow this method. Whats your point?


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ok..compared to a WL doing the same work. Biting a suit with minimal control I see nothing remarkable. If he was a sable dog on a different thread I wouldnt have said anything.



You're selectively simplifying. Not surprised. 

As you should know good portion of control is training -channeling drives blah blah. this wasn't to show training/control. 


Handling pressure, environmentals, transitioning drive to drive, clarity -genetics. Can build upon it sure however point is it's available -right combination. 

And unfortunately I don't see that many GSDs in PSA

A good dog is a good dog that's all.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> You're selectively simplifying. Not surprised.
> 
> As you should know good portion of control is training -channeling drives blah blah. this wasn't to show training/control.
> 
> 
> Handling pressure, environmentals, transitioning drive to drive, clarity -genetics. Can build upon it sure however point is it's available -right combination.
> 
> And unfortunately I don't see that many GSDs in PSA
> 
> A good dog is a good dog that's all.


You posted a vid of your dog. Im commenting on that vid. Maybe he is better then what he shows in the vid, I dont know. 

He isnt the first dog I have seen working a suit. Based on that vid there is nothing remarkable about his work, sorry if that is to simple for you.

As I said based on the vid he is a decent dog. Excellent for a SL though..sorry if you find that offensive.


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You posted a vid of your dog. Im commenting on that vid. Maybe he is better then what he shows in the vid, I dont know.
> 
> He isnt the first dog I have seen working a suit. Based on that vid there is nothing remarkable about his work, sorry if that is to simple for you.
> 
> As I said based on the vid he is a decent dog. Excellent for a SL though..sorry if you find that offensive.


 
Not offended at all ...have heard much worse lol . Just trying to figure out why you have different criteria(and what that is exactly) as I don't see it beneficial to anyone or anything -seems pretty counter-productive if the lines are in such shambles . Are you trying to be polite? lol. 

To me, that is just as bad as removing the stick hits...


----------



## Mrs.P

carmspack said:


> I'll give it to you . That is a nice working dog.


 
Thank you


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Mrs.P said:


> Not offended at all ...have heard much worse lol . Just trying to figure out why you have different criteria(and what that is exactly) as I don't see it beneficial to anyone or anything -seems pretty counter-productive if the lines are in such shambles . Are you trying to be polite? lol.
> 
> To me, that is just as bad as removing the stick hits...


Is your implication that because your dog is a SL that somehow this proves that the nerve and drive issues that myself and others are saying are endemic to those lines are overblown? 

I'll say it like this, based on the SL I have seen your dog is very nice breeding him to other SL would be benificial to the breed assuming he is healthy. 
If he was a WL I would not consider him breeding material from that video. Same with that male Griff.

Your dog should not be an exception to the rule and Imo he is.

If you want an example of a dog working a suit that is very good checkout Hunters dog.


----------



## Mrs.P

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Is your implication that because your dog is a SL that somehow this proves that the nerve and drive issues that myself and others are saying are endemic to those lines are overblown?
> 
> .


 
Not at all -never suggested that. I have seen some pretty good show lines and have seen some extremely crappy ones, just as I have seen very very good working lines and have seen some very crappy ones as well. My criteria does not change.

My implication, although thought I was very straight forward as I wasn't hinting , is why do you change the standards or your criteria? What do you think that is accomplishing in doing so?


----------



## Baillif

http://youtu.be/-GYu1hSRvhM

Showline dog. He won nationals in mondioring at the 1 in 2008


----------



## carmspack

a kennel / breeder that does pay attention to character and working ability using the show lines , and proving themselves over years and many litters should be recognized .

this dog is comfortable with social pressure . Many dogs are not - and this does include working lines . He is close , enclosed , close to the face , staring right back , open eyes and not getting rattled by it , making mistakes and redirecting (snap at face) or getting busy to get it over with so he can escape the pressure.

this dog is calm , in full control , clear 

good dog.

I do have experience in Ring , and Campagne and currently do work with a Ring trainer who has several of my dogs being worked by him. Trial possibility -- probably not -- because the interest in Ring is not there . 
I have worked with one of the founding members of Ring (NARA and ARF) and Cudahy and Carlson . 

how interesting to go through Enzo's pedigree Enzo v TeMar

and see relatively low Canto Wienerau , good source for work Quanto , Fanto Hirschel and in the Temar female see French gsd Ring genetics and old Kirschental working herding lines from way back.


----------



## martemchik

I really didn’t want to get into the discussion about this particular dog, as I’ve never seen him work in person, but the conclusions drawn from a two minute video, where all the dog is doing is four highly stimulating long bites, without showing any control or obedience, is quite interesting. Can the dog track? Does it do obedience? The pressure put on by the helper…can easily have been desensitized through training. Is the video nice to see? Absolutely. But I’d love to see what this dog can do on an inactive helper or someone that isn’t bringing any threat. I’d love to see how the dog reacts to a situation where there isn’t the extra stimulation and the dog has to be able to bring the drive and energy himself.

The reason you change your criteria? Watch any national level competition and see what those dogs are doing. What you see that dog doing, is probably “good enough” for any police department or other personal protection situation. Dog has the drive to bite, a lot of them do.


----------



## Mrs.P

martemchik said:


> But I’d love to see what this dog can do on an inactive helper or someone that isn’t bringing any threat. I’d love to see how the dog reacts to a situation where there isn’t the extra stimulation and the dog has to be able to bring the drive and energy himself.


 
One surprise scenario in PSA 1 includes a send through a tunnel on a passive decoy -fine tuning everything now- but no issues with that scenario next time we are at the field and work it will have someone record


----------



## Smithie86

Where I trained before in California and in Europe, all dogs were worked in all 3 phases. Did not matter. And all were expected to do well. As well as working line dogs being trained for the show ring (respect for the judge and club), show rating and breed surveyed.

Same thing we do in our club. No exceptions


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

My criteria has never been stated nor has it ever changed so dont know where that comment is coming from. 
I have been pretty clear that I have two different standards. Judged by the WL standard based on the vid the dog is decent not remarkable.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

In the interest of being open about my criteria this is what I consider "WL nice". www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnSns1Uvraw


----------



## KathrynApril

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> In the interest of being open about my criteria this is what I consider "WL nice". www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnSns1Uvraw


Link isn't working. At least not for me.


----------



## Mrs.P

Id much rather see the push in than pulling away especially when decoy freezes up. Nice distraction room though.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

New link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnSns1Uvraw

This is an IPO dog he is being tested not training in a suit sport. What I like to see is a dog that is actively fighting the decoy and trying to take him down. I like the switch between fight to active guarding and I like the grips that the dog displays despite a ton of pressure. The grip is full, calm and crushing such a dog can easily be taught to push.


----------



## SuperG

It all looks like a big game ( fun ) to the dog plus they could really use a maid or do a bit of housecleaning perhaps.


SuperG


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## WesS

SuperG said:


> It all looks like a big game ( fun ) to the dog plus they could really use a maid or do a bit of housecleaning perhaps.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Eh you stole my joke.  I think they need to worry more about the office, and less if the dog can bite.


----------



## MadLab

What I don't like about the dogs in the last video is the movement. It looks to me like they don't respect the dogs and the beauty of dogs. I'd like to see a dog like that hit the guy with out a suit and see how macho he is then. They see the dogs as tools. But they are the tools really.


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## Sunflowers

No way in h e double toothpicks would I ever let anyone slam my dog around like that.


----------



## carmspack

oh no another dog demoed being picked up like some carry on luggage . 
this dog , working in prey .
the decoy is his super-booty .

not at all impressive control. handler on two or three occasions has to say fuss (and the dog really really does not - held by collar and he is charging on two feet), and the handler says bleib , (remain or stay) and the dog doesn't - not even close

if the dog were in fight drive he wouldn't hold on to the suit , he would let go and punish the decoy for disrespecting him. 

I prefer this little fella Gandalf van Brandevoort KNPV PH 1
met lof at a very young age https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMjvHaft_Fk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfkGw5JXZno

his sire was KNPV met lof , the progeny of a KNPV PH 2 male and a female who herself was KNPV and Sch H 1 .

so this male more than proved himself and proved his ability to pass on to the next generation (Gandalf representing) had a campaign against him as a breeding animal .... because ..... his mother's mother was a show line.

so the heck what . so what .


----------



## SuperG

Dog is having fun in those videos as well.....nice to see.


SuperG


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## mycobraracr

MadLab said:


> What I don't like about the dogs in the last video is the movement. It looks to me like they don't respect the dogs and the beauty of dogs. I'd like to see a dog like that hit the guy with out a suit and see how macho he is then. They see the dogs as tools. But they are the tools really.



What?


----------



## Mrs.P

carmspack said:


> oh no another dog demoed being picked up like some carry on luggage .
> this dog , working in prey .
> the decoy is his super-booty .
> 
> not at all impressive control. handler on two or three occasions has to say fuss (and the dog really really does not - held by collar and he is charging on two feet), and the handler says bleib , (remain or stay) and the dog doesn't - not even close
> 
> if the dog were in fight drive he wouldn't hold on to the suit , he would let go and punish the decoy for disrespecting him.
> 
> I prefer this little fella Gandalf van Brandevoort KNPV PH 1
> met lof at a very young age https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMjvHaft_Fk
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfkGw5JXZno
> 
> his sire was KNPV met lof , the progeny of a KNPV PH 2 male and a female who herself was KNPV and Sch H 1 .
> 
> so this male more than proved himself and proved his ability to pass on to the next generation (Gandalf representing) had a campaign against him as a breeding animal .... because ..... his mother's mother was a show line.
> 
> so the heck what . so what .



Loved the last one super nice!


----------



## Colie CVT

I think what strikes out to me more with the dogs that Blitz and Carmen posted is the sheer tenacity of the dog. That certain bit more that they are willing to go in order to get the reward (whether bite or ball). It's something in the eyes, something in the body language. I dunno. Personally, I've loved watching all the dogs presented.  It only helps me learn more the more that I watch, especially getting to see other sports. 

Hey, I'm the one who owns the white showline that bites. Outside of Blitz, no one has a word to say good or bad, when I was hoping for opinions.  If we want to talk about how some lines get looked down on or whatever lol. Even if we should look at the dogs themselves, certain drives, certain genetic factors are gonna make the job easier in the end. There really is a certain look about the dog, a certain something that makes it easy to see who would be better than others. Though end of the day, if your dog enjoys something and is happy doing it, you should do it!

Best way that I can explain is like the other day. Our ophthalmologists are participating in the ACVO-Service Dog Exams. The military brought up a few dogs. The first one that I saw was very calm. His whole demeanor and body language suggested that he was easy going and chill. First thing I asked the girl was what he did, because I figured he was detection rather than apprehension. Turned out that he was detection. Next dog that came in was detection, but patrol too. He was much more watchful, much more aware and lively. There's just something that suggested he was "more" dog than the other dog. Both nice looking GSD. Two totally different dogs. I hadn't really meant to stay for the second exam (I wanted to ask about the clear muzzle the dog had on since it looked like a softer material than the traditional leather) and then got trapped by a photographer. >> Least I could turn lights on and off for the dr lol.


----------



## mycobraracr

Colie CVT said:


> Hey, I'm the one who owns the white showline that bites. Outside of Blitz, no one has a word to say good or bad, when I was hoping for opinions.  If we want to talk about how some lines get looked down on or whatever lol. Even if we should look at the dogs themselves, certain drives, certain genetic factors are gonna make the job easier in the end.



The problem is you can't dissect a dog based only on video of a particular session. It's not fair to the dog. It's also not always fair to the decoy that has no idea people may be talking about him. Also, often people ask opinions about their dogs, but as soon as something negative or something they disagree with comes out, then people get defensive and the conversation goes no where.


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## Blitzkrieg1

No Carmen that dog was not exclusively in prey..lol. He did not let go while being flanked because he is a quality dog. Watch his grips and body language while being pressured. Coming off the bite is an avoidance behavior. 
This is the kind of dog you breed too.

I was just at a dept getting a dog tested, guess what they did to him on the bite? Flanked him to see how it affected his engagement and grip. 

The last dog was for sale last year. I was semi interested but had some concerns about his level of aggression and fight based on the videos. I contacted some people that new of him. Their opinion was that he did not have the level of aggression / seriousness and dominance necessary to be an exceptional dog or a stud.
Lets not forget the SL blood that comes through Lubeck that is likely responsible for this deficit. 
He is nothing special, but has good training.

There is really no comparison in the quality of the two dogs. I like these threads, really helps you understand where other people are coming from with the things they say...


----------



## Colie CVT

I get that, Myco. It's why I posted multiple sessions over the span of at least a year's time. I'm honestly interested in what has to be said about my girl. I know she's nowhere near the caliber of many dogs posted here. I know she's never going to be a sport dog, she may bend under pressure. Gunshots make her nervous, which is something I know. With my roommate, she'll run away from him without a second's thought. If she's with me, she will stay at my side. She has flaws. I definitely know that. 

My curiosity is the different viewpoints that I cannot get here (meaning IRL). I'd be more than happy to let her work with many of you who I've seen on these boards. Downfall being time, travel, money, things that I just don't have lol. Man if I did. ; ; I'd seriously love to be able to actually meet people here, see them working dogs, work my dogs with them. The thing that I love most about Leia will never change, and that's her heart. She wants so badly to try what is asked of her, she will go beyond her comfort zone. 

Heck, first time that we were in the car, when the trainer went from just making gestures at the car and actually challenged her at the window by coming close, she shot backward and anal glanded the dog bed in my car. -.- Want to talk about disgusting. By the end of that session, she was standing her ground. End of it all, I know where we started, that we are far from where we can go. I just like hearing differing viewpoints because you learn that way.


----------



## carmspack

get the facts straight -- you watch the dogs , I put them in .
Lubeck ? let go .
" He was the best attacker in the PH 1 competition for all GSD's. Lübeck has incredible work ethic and his hunt and retrieve drive is among the best. His attacks on the suit are very violent, much more like a Malinois than a German Shepherd. His grips are full and punishing and he has very high fight drive, but at the same time, has the nerves and stable temperament to do virtually any job."

a biddable dog with fight drive . 
that is why he was chosen by van Brandevoort

the conversation that was ongoing was that he did have a show line in his background and you just can't have an un-pure "working line"
who would buy it -- 

he has more than proven himself with progeny in Dutch military , law enforcement etc who don't have the sport statistics


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Lubeck was a good dog, as a stud he is maybe not so good. Thats likely why he was sold. Thats why he came here and flopped as in little demand for his services.
Same reason his son was sold and ended up here too..never to be heard from again...nothing special.


----------



## WesS

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lubeck was a good dog, as a stud he is maybe not so good. Thats likely why he was sold. Thats why he came here and flopped as in little demand for his services.
> Same reason his son was sold and ended up here too..never to be heard from again...nothing special.


Great points. Breeding is not just about the dog who is breeding. It's about the pups it is capable of producing. 

Traits can come from anywhere along the 'family tree'. So if the dog is the exception rather than the rule in his immidiate progeny, it is likely he won't be a great producer of working dogs?


----------



## martemchik

Colie CVT said:


> Hey, I'm the one who owns the white showline that bites. Outside of Blitz, no one has a word to say good or bad, when I was hoping for opinions.  If we want to talk about how some lines get looked down on or whatever lol. Even if we should look at the dogs themselves, certain drives, certain genetic factors are gonna make the job easier in the end. There really is a certain look about the dog, a certain something that makes it easy to see who would be better than others. Though end of the day, if your dog enjoys something and is happy doing it, you should do it!


Yeah...you won't get true opinions about YOUR dog on this forum. It's just not wroth the drama. Truthfully...you won't get a true opinion on your dog unless you take it somewhere different than where you've been training it, either for training or a trial. You should also try to look for someone who isn't getting paid to work your dog, that's when you get a true opinion. I'm not sure how your training has worked in the past...but it has sounded like a pay per lesson type deal and that's where you really won't get unbiased opinions. I mean...no reason for a trainer to tell you something that can lead you to not come back.

You might get somewhere through PMs, but even then, most good trainers won't give you any real advice or opinions without seeing your dog work and being able to actually help you.


----------



## lhczth

I can't watch videos on my computer and they suck up too much data on my phone. Sorry I can't give input Colie CVT.


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## lhczth

I know nothing about Lubek other than pedigree. There are many reasons why dogs are sold: not producing (nerves not good, joints not good, other health issues popping up), not enough interest by sport people (that is where the money is for working line stud dogs) for some reason, getting older, money. The show lines in his mother are a big deterrent to many breeders.


----------



## WesS

MadLab said:


> What I don't like about the dogs in the last video is the movement. It looks to me like they don't respect the dogs and the beauty of dogs. I'd like to see a dog like that hit the guy with out a suit and see how macho he is then. They see the dogs as tools. But they are the tools really.


The toughness of the wolf. Ancestor of the dog. 





The sad truth about what dogs are bred for these days. To watch Game of Thrones, on couch and look 'cute', and be quiet. (I am sure their favourite characters are those 'dire wolves'.





GSD's were meant to be tough. I see nothing wrong with that video. The dog is tough enough to keep fighting and to keep engaging. Getting a bit roughed up is not going to hurt him. 

In fact I think he is a lot healthier than that pug.


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## Mrs.P

WesS said:


> The sad truth about what dogs are bred for these days. To watch Game of Thrones, on couch and look 'cute', and be quiet..


 
Some *** Go visit your 'local' working dog club


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## Kodakp

Sorry I had to get through some of the messages to find ones that pertain to me. Lol ok so yes dog stock. I am looking into it. Also I tried to send Steve a message and it would not let me so I will post my reply I can go to Morgan Hill! I am actually in San Jose but most people are more familiar with SF. I am bringing Koda to Cali K9 for a class to see how he does. I am afraid grabbing his mouth to stop him from biting me maybe stopping his drive. I don't do it anymore but just wear long sleeve and boots. I bought a ton of tug toys and he goes crazy! Lol Where is this place on Friday?


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## Kodakp

Both of those post are really great advice. I need to find a club just to kind of look at him. The reason I questioned the money factor in the first place is because the trainers kind of late out a tier of training and the prices. Just a evaluation was 50 dollars.


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## Kodakp

Stupid question for anyone. When Koda is playing with my Great Dane his hackles are up. Is this indicating fear? Or is it excitement? I have noticed if he meets a new dog they go up also..


----------



## mspiker03

Kodakp said:


> Sorry I had to get through some of the messages to find ones that pertain to me. Lol ok so yes dog stock. I am looking into it. Also I tried to send Steve a message and it would not let me so I will post my reply I can go to Morgan Hill! I am actually in San Jose but most people are more familiar with SF. I am bringing Koda to Cali K9 for a class to see how he does. I am afraid grabbing his mouth to stop him from biting me maybe stopping his drive. I don't do it anymore but just wear long sleeve and boots. I bought a ton of tug toys and he goes crazy! Lol Where is this place on Friday?



I am going to Steves club Friday


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## RockyK9

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You posted a vid of your dog. Im commenting on that vid. Maybe he is better then what he shows in the vid, I dont know.
> 
> He isnt the first dog I have seen working a suit. Based on that vid there is nothing remarkable about his work, sorry if that is to simple for you.
> 
> As I said based on the vid he is a decent dog. Excellent for a SL though..sorry if you find that offensive.


 I am curious Blitz where you feel all your wisdom and experience about assessing and observing all these different qualities comes from? Are you an experienced working breeder? Have you been in the working dog world for long? Are you a top level IPO handler? I only ask because in your posts you always seem so ..... sure of yourself so I am curious? You of course are entitled to your opinion just not sure what experience you base it on. Do you still train in Orangeville at Saugeen?


----------



## GatorDog

Meh, I don't take very many people's opinions on working capability very seriously at all on this website. I've had quite a few people tell me that my bitch is only a sport dog and not "real" enough to their liking, while I've had offers from departments to purchase her for breeding programs in police departments in real life. I laugh it off and trust the opinions of fellow people who are either competing at the level I aspire to, or at the very least have been where I am. For some reason the first people like to offer their critique on the Internet are people who did something with dogs 15 years ago and haven't seen a trial field since, or people who think they're already good enough without accomplishing anything for themselves. Not much value in that for me.


----------



## Carriesue

mattpayne said:


> I am curious Blitz where you feel all your wisdom and experience about assessing and observing all these different qualities comes from? Are you an experienced working breeder? Have you been in the working dog world for long? Are you a top level IPO handler? I only ask because in your posts you always seem so ..... sure of yourself so I am curious? You of course are entitled to your opinion just not sure what experience you base it on. Do you still train in Orangeville at Saugeen?


A nice quote I've seen here, the strength of ones opinions should not exceed their knowledge. It applies in this situation, just sayin'.


----------



## Jax08

Carriesue said:


> A nice quote I've seen here, the strength of ones opinions should not exceed their knowledge. It applies in this situation, just sayin'.


That's mine


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## Mrs.P

Carriesue said:


> A nice quote I've seen here, the strength of ones opinions should not exceed their knowledge. It applies in this situation, just sayin'.



:thumbup:


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

mattpayne said:


> I am curious Blitz where you feel all your wisdom and experience about assessing and observing all these different qualities comes from? Are you an experienced working breeder? Have you been in the working dog world for long? Are you a top level IPO handler? I only ask because in your posts you always seem so ..... sure of yourself so I am curious? You of course are entitled to your opinion just not sure what experience you base it on. Do you still train in Orangeville at Saugeen?


I always enjoy these type of posts Matt..

Since you asked, I started working dogs in 05 in the private securities field. 
No I am not a breeder..anyone with a male and female can do that so I dont consider it any kind of qualification. 

Its touching that you went to the trouble of finding out a little about me. I dont train at Saugeen anymore, I am surprised you dont know that. 

Seems like you may have some familiarity with this area. How about this:

Come down to Kitchener, bring your dog/s and we can have a training day. You can see my dogs and my training and decide for yourself whether or not Im a "keyboard trainer" and if I know how to evaluate a dog for work. 
This is a serious offer. Feel free to bring your camera and take video if you like. 

I have been around long enough, seen and experienced enough to know that the working dog world is full of delusional breeders and handlers that will happily mislead newbies about the quality of their dogs. In many cases its not intentional, the person cannot get past their ego or emotion and as such can not see the truth of what their dog/s are. In other cases these individuals simply do not adequately test their dogs, are kennel blind or are out and out liars. 
Lets not forget the people that have been doing "it" for 30 years and still cant train or objectively evaluate a dog.

I have lost time and money to such individuals. Perhaps thats why my posts come across as caustic. I have no patients for it anymore. However, if they stop one new person from losing the time and money that I have to such people they wont be in vain. Seeing is believing. 

Finally, I am no guru, never claimed to be. The things that are talked about on this forum rarely if ever require that level of knowledge. This thread for instance "SLs doing Bitework". If you have educated yourself and got out there with multiple dogs and training these topics are not complicated. 


No mysteries here, if anyone wants to see my dogs or training they are welcome to come down and we can get to some training. No one is more critical of my dogs or training then I am.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Carriesue said:


> A nice quote I've seen here, the strength of ones opinions should not exceed their knowledge. It applies in this situation, just sayin'.


...


----------



## carmspack

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lubeck was a good dog, as a stud he is maybe not so good.
> 
> ******** carmspack reply
> this was not the case . Jan Rekers took an opportunity to expand his range of exposure for his fine kennel . The SV has IPO (shutzhund) and does not look outside of the country or this system to find good dogs . Rarely incorporated. This is not the case for the other countries as France (Ring Sport) and Holland and Belgium (KNPV / Mondio) and Sweden etc do make use of each other's and Czech / Slovak and German dogs . Not so the other way .
> 
> Lubeck was a prepotent stud . He put his stamp on his progeny both in appearance and in character .
> 
> Here is one of his young female progeny from Rekers kennel from Lubeck's sister Lola https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lun_Wp-5-t8
> 
> so WesS there is a genetic base -- Lubeck/Lola sire is Inox haus Ming KNPV PH2 , dam is KNPV PH 1 . Lubeck was met lof and he produced met lof (Gandalf) .
> 
> 
> 
> Blitzkreig said "Thats likely why he was sold. Thats why he came here and flopped as in little demand for his services."
> 
> well I did almost 2 years research on this dog -- I did my best to answer why he was sold.
> 
> Flopped . From the beginning of his arrival there was great energy spent to create controversy about this dogs show line in his 2nd generation . V Lubeck von der Mahler-Meister
> 
> do you see that the show line was accomplished ?
> 
> Big talk about not being able to sell a dog with a show line in the background .
> 
> No matter who I contacted the answers were the same , very stable self sure , high fight drive (which the breed needs) . For all the drive the dogs were calm in the house and kennel , applied themselves with energy in work, were biddable and great as family companions . Sounds pretty ideal to me .
> 
> Blitzkrieg said
> "Same reason his son was sold and ended up here too..never to be heard from again...nothing special.


"

my reply ---- I have been following non-SV breeding programmes for a long time . Brandevoort was of special interest because they were so consistent . Here is proof http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...anding-knpv-dogs-results-dutch-nationals.html (2012) 

I emailed Stommels (van Brandevoort) and followed young Gandalf before he ever went to trial . With his experience and his success he is not going to be fooled by a dog and he is not going to jeopardise his success . There was a declared purpose in choosing Lubeck and it paid off .
Gandalf went to trials and rose to the top , did get honours or met lof scores . 

The brother that was to have mysteriously disappeared was Gideon who went to Dutch military. They tend not to post or compete -- just get to work . There is a female from that G litter that may be used in the future.

--The reason for "never to be heard from again" was because tragically a few days after arriving in the US , the dog was hit by a car - deceased. It made me sick to hear of this -- I would have loved this dog.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Sorry to hear he was hit by a car, the death of any dog is sad. 
Doesn't change my opinion of who he was as a dog though. He came here and would have faded into obscurity just like his sire who imo was the better dog. Many average KNPV dogs get good scores..

Not surprising Stommels said nice things about his dog... Others that train dogs in that area did not share his opinion. 
He looked like a good dog from the vid but exceptional..I dont think so imo.


----------



## RockyK9

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I always enjoy these type of posts Matt..
> 
> Since you asked, I started working dogs in 05 in the private securities field.
> No I am not a breeder..anyone with a male and female can do that so I dont consider it any kind of qualification.
> 
> Its touching that you went to the trouble of finding out a little about me. I dont train at Saugeen anymore, I am surprised you dont know that.
> 
> Seems like you may have some familiarity with this area. How about this:
> 
> Come down to Kitchener, bring your dog/s and we can have a training day. You can see my dogs and my training and decide for yourself whether or not Im a "keyboard trainer" and if I know how to evaluate a dog for work.
> This is a serious offer. Feel free to bring your camera and take video if you like.
> 
> I have been around long enough, seen and experienced enough to know that the working dog world is full of delusional breeders and handlers that will happily mislead newbies about the quality of their dogs. In many cases its not intentional, the person cannot get past their ego or emotion and as such can not see the truth of what their dog/s are. In other cases these individuals simply do not adequately test their dogs, are kennel blind or are out and out liars.
> Lets not forget the people that have been doing "it" for 30 years and still cant train or objectively evaluate a dog.
> 
> I have lost time and money to such individuals. Perhaps thats why my posts come across as caustic. I have no patients for it anymore. However, if they stop one new person from losing the time and money that I have to such people they wont be in vain. Seeing is believing.
> 
> Finally, I am no guru, never claimed to be. The things that are talked about on this forum rarely if ever require that level of knowledge. This thread for instance "SLs doing Bitework". If you have educated yourself and got out there with multiple dogs and training these topics are not complicated.
> 
> 
> No mysteries here, if anyone wants to see my dogs or training they are welcome to come down and we can get to some training. No one is more critical of my dogs or training then I am.


 Thanks Blitz for sharing. To be honest don't be too flattered I did not really need to go to much trouble to find out anything about you. You are quite open on the forum about where you have trained. I trained at Saugeen 13 years ago so I would have no way of knowing if you still train or not there. 
Its great that you have been training /working dogs for 10 years. I can come see you work and train ( thanks for the invite I am actually really close) , hear your assessment and evaluations and that still does to really validate anything other than you have 10 years experience with the dogs. That matters. I am not saying you are a keyboard trainer but interesting you should think that. Did you feel I was implying that, versus being curious how you form such confidence in your opinions ? 

It may seem noble that by sharing in these discussions you can stop people from losing time and money but I don't really think people come on these boards looking for people to talk them in or out of anything...at least I hope they don't . Everyone needs to rely on relationships /trust to truly be informed other than relying that anyone on the boards is going to solve their issues for them.How do they know you are any more trustworthy on a message board? I do think reputations of breeders /kennels, lines can help guide even opinions . But in the end you know what they say about opinions 

In the end thanks for sharing.


----------



## RockyK9

:


GatorDog said:


> Meh, I don't take very many people's opinions on working capability very seriously at all on this website. I've had quite a few people tell me that my bitch is only a sport dog and not "real" enough to their liking, while I've had offers from departments to purchase her for breeding programs in police departments in real life. I laugh it off and trust the opinions of fellow people who are either competing at the level I aspire to, or at the very least have been where I am. For some reason the first people like to offer their critique on the Internet are people who did something with dogs 15 years ago and haven't seen a trial field since, or people who think they're already good enough without accomplishing anything for themselves. Not much value in that for me.


 Agreed. :thumbup:


----------



## WesS

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> ...


Blitzkrieg your posts are great. One of the few who is not afraid to say it how he believes it is. 

I get more benefit from your posts that most other politically correct posts. I dont understand why everyone climbed on your back here. The take home message is to not be blinded by your dogs capabilities by those around you, or by self actualising ego. 

My personal problem is people who take themselves way too seriously on the forum, and classify themselves as self-procclaimed experts because they know a bit more than those they are speaking to. 

To everyone, check your ego at the door, and (the self-manufactured ego you created for your dog). Sometimes you hear things you like, and other times not so much. Why post videos of your dogs as proof of for example, that SL can work, or to ask for an opinion and then when somebody gives his honest opinion, that is not in agreement, with your self professed image, you rebel and personally attack them? 

It really does not take a genius or years of training experience that they are huge differences from line to line.

Check your Ego's at the Door.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

mattpayne said:


> Thanks Blitz for sharing. To be honest don't be too flattered I did not really need to go to much trouble to find out anything about you. You are quite open on the forum about where you have trained. I trained at Saugeen 13 years ago so I would have no way of knowing if you still train or not there.
> Its great that you have been training /working dogs for 10 years. I can come see you work and train ( thanks for the invite I am actually really close) , hear your assessment and evaluations and that still does to really validate anything other than you have 10 years experience with the dogs. That matters. I am not saying you are a keyboard trainer but interesting you should think that. Did you feel I was implying that, versus being curious how you form such confidence in your opinions ?
> 
> It may seem noble that by sharing in these discussions you can stop people from losing time and money but I don't really think people come on these boards looking for people to talk them in or out of anything...at least I hope they don't . Everyone needs to rely on relationships /trust to truly be informed other than relying that anyone on the boards is going to solve their issues for them.How do they know you are any more trustworthy on a message board? I do think reputations of breeders /kennels, lines can help guide even opinions . But in the end you know what they say about opinions
> 
> In the end thanks for sharing.


Your probably right. However, some of the things people take as gospel on here need to be questioned, and Im going to keep doing that.

In the end its a forum and everything is a matter of opinion...


----------



## RockyK9

WesS said:


> Blitzkrieg your posts are great. One of the few who is not afraid to say it how he believes it is.
> 
> I get more benefit from your posts that most other politically correct posts. I dont understand why everyone climbed on your back here. The take home message is to not be blinded by your dogs capabilities by those around you, or by self actualising ego.
> 
> My personal problem is people who take themselves way too seriously on the forum, and classify themselves as self-procclaimed experts because they know a bit more than those they are speaking to.
> 
> To everyone, check your ego at the door, and (the self-manufactured ego you created for your dog). Sometimes you hear things you like, and other times not so much. Why post videos of your dogs as proof of for example, that SL can work, or to ask for an opinion and then when somebody gives his honest opinion, that is not in agreement, with your self professed image, you rebel and personally attack them?
> 
> It really does not take a genius or years of training experience that they are huge differences from line to line.
> 
> Check your Ego's at the Door.


 Well everyone " says it how they believe it" thats why these debates start. In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion based on whatever they wish . Who sis to say who is right or wrong anyway?? All can feel free to argue , debate and disagree. Beauty of message boards.


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## WesS

mattpayne said:


> Well everyone " says it how they believe it" thats why these debates start. In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion based on whatever they wish . Who sis to say who is right or wrong anyway?? All can feel free to argue , debate and disagree. Beauty of message boards.


My post was not addressed to you. You asked a valid question. It was the subsequent snarky comments after that adding no value. Yes I agree. Its about opinions. And you dont read to much into it. You just get to see things from different perspectives and open your mind. That is the beauty of a forum. Not complete advice. Or taking it as truth. The different opinions balance themselves out.


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## RockyK9

WesS said:


> My post was not addressed to you. You asked a valid question. It was the subsequent snarky comments after that adding no value. Yes I agree. Its about opinions. And you dont read to much into it. You just get to see things from different perspectives and open your mind. That is the beauty of a forum. Not complete advice. Or taking it as truth. The different opinions balance themselves out.


 No I realize it was not addressed to me Wes. I agree with you 100%.


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## onyx'girl

Too bad there are so many ego's floating around here...what ever happened to being humble and open minded. I see more than a few here that have become the board experts(after many real ones left the building), every thread turns into negative instead of positive. 
We all love this breed, enjoy training, yet there seems to be angst in many posts.
I hope that doesn't go down the leash~ if you don't use a leash then it's all good lol


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## martemchik

Here come the passive aggressive comments...

Ready...

Go!


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## onyx'girl

How about bringing this back to the thread subject....and not bring it down further. Stop with the negative and lets all get along, is it really that difficult to try to be nice?


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## Steve Strom

Kodakp said:


> Sorry I had to get through some of the messages to find ones that pertain to me. Lol ok so yes dog stock. I am looking into it. Also I tried to send Steve a message and it would not let me so I will post my reply I can go to Morgan Hill! I am actually in San Jose but most people are more familiar with SF. I am bringing Koda to Cali K9 for a class to see how he does. I am afraid grabbing his mouth to stop him from biting me maybe stopping his drive. I don't do it anymore but just wear long sleeve and boots. I bought a ton of tug toys and he goes crazy! Lol Where is this place on Friday?


Technically, Its Coyote. You probably know where Coyote Ranch is. Its the same road. I've never trained with Jas at CaliK9, but I've talked to him at trials. He seems like a pretty good guy. I'll send you a pm and see if it works.


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## lhczth

Yes, please people, lets try to stay on the topic of dogs and away from personal back and forth discussions. THIS is the reason many people that used to post do not. This board is for educational purposes, but when everything degrades into nasty back and forth bickering we lose the people we were trying educate. 

Also, whether one agrees with a person or not, one can still learn something.

ADMIN Lisa


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup: 




carmspack said:


> I'll give it to you . That is a nice working dog.




Mrs. P. You and Enzo too! :thumbup:


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## Colie CVT

It has been a pay by session style of training. The trainer has been honest with me. There are only two other trainers I know of in the area and they are related to clubs. A few years back there was some drama with the clubs and things changed up some. By then I had not been going to them in awhile to watch. Leia isn't really a sport prospect so I am not sure what kind of evaluation I would get on her. 

It is why I say I wish I had money to come work with many of you and see you work dogs.  I have learned a lot in general through working with Leia as much as watching others. And even if she is white and I know we aren't championship material, the thread was questioning bite work with a show line. Which is what we are doing.


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