# Finding myself on the fence on two issues.....



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

1.
Until this week I would have never imagined finding myself on the fence regarding training methods. The last ten years I have only used the positive training techniques that worked well with my own and clients' dogs.
WD however has gotten so strong physically that I once wished I had a prong collar; the time on a trail that he lunged at another dog, held by the collar by his owner, who was dressed in camouflage gear and hiding in shrubbery crazy I know it would set off the gentlest dog. He almost pulled me off my feet.
My main worry about this collar is that he will associate other people, dogs and "things" with the negative feeling of the collar and make things worse. 
So far he has been gentle but this was a definite change in him (he is 9.5 months old). At home we practice the NILIF treatment.

2. I was always against kenneling my dogs outside and never have (so far). Actually I had a post recently, feeling sorry for the "growing up boys" who got a new kennel (couldn't find the post anymore to change my mind there). 
WD was raised in a kennel at his breeder so he knows it. My gut feeling tells me it is OK and he needs that confinement once in a while but it goes against everything I have practiced so far. How do you guys feel about that? How did your dogs respond to tie outside in a kennel? By the way: WD will mostly be indoors with us. The outside kennel will basically replace his indoor crate time.

Yep, WD has broadened my horizon on many issues, humbling to say the least.


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## lostangl (Jul 15, 2002)

I can only speak for myself. I have a male that is so strong that I couldn't hold him back if he wanted to take off, so I got a prong and it was the best thing I did! He didn't have a problem with it and learned not to pull, I only had to use it for a short time.

I don't leave my dogs outside unless we aren't home and they are always inside at night. If you are going to kennel him anyway, why not do it inside in a crate?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I have used prong collars when needed over 20 years. I don't think any of my dogs have negative associations with the collar. The 2 older dogs go out with plain collars on now but I still use the prong on Lakota because she will get over the top with deer or squirrels, instead of her lunging forward she will jump straight up. I'd rather have her doing that than choking herself.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I would rather have my dog on a prong collar than have him pull with all his strength against a flat collar, since I'm sure that's not good for the neck. Another thing that rarely gets mentioned is how it affects the person: when the dog is on a prong, you have control of your dog and therefore you're calm, but if the dog is pulling you all over, you're stressed and the dog will certainly pick up on this. If your dog can pull you over, that's another thing to consider.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've not had problems with dogs associating prongs with bad things. In fact if you jingle a prong they will coming running and want to go out! I would not use a prong if you plan to just put it on and let the dog lunge (I know a lot of people think this is how to use it, "self-correcting"). If you use it you need to be comfortable with *using* it, like giving your dog corrections and helping him learn what is appropriate/allowed. When I use a prong for behavior or for training specific things I use "NePoPo" which means the negative is paired with positive, so my dog always gets feedback for responding to the correction and then making the right choice.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My dog has absolutely no bad association with a prong...and its the only way I could get through his thick skull sometimes. I didn't want to use it when he was young, and our instructor told us that he needs it because no other corrections worked for him. So we got a prong, and now I rarely put it on. Generally when learning something new, or just trying to fix a certain obedience thing.

I find that if I pick up the prong he gets excited if anything...he knows we're either going outside or to work. I'm not sure if you truly understand the kind of correction a prong gives off...its really not painful, its more of a reminder. A reminder that you're in charge and a reminder that something else is needed from the dog.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

I've used prongs on both of mine at some point. Cheyenne hasn't needed one since she grew out of the butthead teenage stage. Panzer is in that stage, and I will only walk him on a prong, because he reacts very strongly to other dogs and sometimes I just can't control him. I never "use" correction on the prong, but let them self-correct. This has seemed to work well for me. 

Regarding an outside kennel. If I had to kennel my dogs during the day, and could move it outside on nice days, I definitely would. Using kennels as a home for a dog...I could never do. If I'm home, my dogs are with me in my house, or outside if I am outside. But as an alternative to an indoor kennel when I'm not home...absolutely! As long as I knew they were sheltered from the elements should the weather change!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

jprice103 said:


> I've used prongs on both of mine at some point. Cheyenne hasn't needed one since she grew out of the butthead teenage stage. Panzer is in that stage, and I will only walk him on a prong, because he reacts very strongly to other dogs and sometimes I just can't control him. I never "use" correction on the prong, but let them self-correct. This has seemed to work well for me.
> 
> Regarding an outside kennel. If I had to kennel my dogs during the day, and could move it outside on nice days, I definitely would. Using kennels as a home for a dog...I could never do. If I'm home, my dogs are with me in my house, or outside if I am outside. But as an alternative to an indoor kennel when I'm not home...absolutely! As long as I knew they were sheltered from the elements should the weather change!


Thanks, this confirms what I was thinking of.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Draven (my 4 month old) spends about 6 hours a day in his kennel even of we are home

If I'm going to crate him because I can't watch him he goes in his kennel instead 

He is calm and just chills in his kennel. Because its routine it's nice to m or I don't have to rush home etc.

He never sleeps outside he is in my bedroom with me and spends evenings with the family inside.

But he needs his time and the family needs ours too.

Works great he isn't trilled about going in the kennel but he doesn't hate it either.




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## bigd3077 (Aug 19, 2012)

My dog has no problem with the prong. (4 months) she sits and lets me put it on, and does not pull at all. I experimented and walked her with the regular collar, and she was pretty good, but pulled. I don't let her self correct.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have to keep your dog safe. If a prong collar will keep your dog safer than no prong collar, than go for it. 

I try to have an outdoor kennel for each of my dogs. I am STILL down one since I separated the puppies from the dam, and so now Babs is in the house 24/7, This, in my opinion is not ideal. I love for Babs to be in, and when I am there she generally is inside, but I think they do very well having outdoor time as well. 

A well-constructed, secure kennel in a fenced yard can be safer and more comfortable for a dog than leaving the dog the run of the house. For one thing the dog can drink and potty at will, rather than trying to hold it, or keeping to a schedule, which can, if there is a traffic jam or something, cause the dog discomfort or to have an accident. 

My dogs rush outside to their kennels and go into them without any hesitation. It is a part of their life, and they do not find it onerous. There are other dogs in kennels there as well, so they are not totally bored out of their minds.


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## MattLink (Oct 23, 2012)

If you NEED to use that method then do it. But if you don't believe that method is right -- I do think you can find other ways of handling the problem, wether its other tools or just a change to your training, or both. I'm a pretty firm believer that there's always options


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I use positive training in my dogs, but I don't see a prong collar as all that different than the Halti I used to train my adult GSD to walk on leash. I have not seen dogs become fearful because of it unless it is misused--and honestly not even usually the, the result I see there is a reinforcement of pulling rather than a correction. I know my GSD will pull through any prong collar like it is a flat collar but doesn't like the Halti's results--it may not be physical discomfort but it is frustrating for him.

I would say that ultimately, control is the big thing, combined with training. If you're working on teaching your dog not to pull, but when surprises show up you need some physical means of control, then I say do it. The only time I complain is when I see prongs being used by people who clearly don't care to train their dogs.

As for the outdoor kennel, I think that depends on your dog. I don't see a big difference between indoor crating and outdoor kenneling if they're done for the same reasonable (for indoor crating) amount of time, and provided the dog is protected from the elements.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i figure if you don't have the physical strength to hold a dog on a flat collar should it lunge then you have no business owning that particular dog. 

not being sexist but the biggest rottweilers i have seen are owned by the smallest women i have seen. the dogs end up needing a few extra vertabrae to fit all the gadgets and collars on its neck - and for what??


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

x11 said:


> i figure if you don't have the physical strength to hold a dog on a flat collar should it lunge then you have no business owning that particular dog.
> 
> not being sexist but the biggest rottweilers i have seen are owned by the smallest women i have seen. the dogs end up needing a few extra vertabrae to fit all the gadgets and collars on its neck - and for what??


LOL, not being sexist! Good one! 

Absolutely nothing wrong with using the appropriate collar to be in control, regardless of size, sex, physical ability or culturally influenced gender bias. 

And as mentioned in many other threads. Take a prong collar, put it around your arm, your leg, even your neck and pull on it - it is not a big deal! but the dogs understand and respect the effect of the prong, it communicates a message to them. A flat is only a physical bump on their way to getting what they want that they can easily ignore if strong enough.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

x11 said:


> i figure if you don't have the physical strength to hold a dog on a flat collar should it lunge then you have no business owning that particular dog.
> 
> not being sexist but the biggest rottweilers i have seen are owned by the smallest women i have seen. the dogs end up needing a few extra vertabrae to fit all the gadgets and collars on its neck - and for what??


I weigh 117 pounds as of yesterday. My GSD is small, only about 65 pounds (and only trained in a flat collar, except when I was walking him with my 3 other 40-pound dogs by myself, when I put them all in Haltis). But I've also recently worked with my neighbors' Great Pyrenees and a friends Great Danes...

Oh yeah, and I make my living as a professional horse trainer. My smallest professional client weighs about 900 pounds...and that's because I now work with a smaller breed; I used to work with larger one that averaged about 1200 pounds...managed them just fine...

It isn't about physical strength. A full-sized dog can overpower virtually any adult male; otherwise, we wouldn't have protection dogs. A very small horse can overpower any person; that's just physics. The reason we've survived as a species is our intelligence; it's still the reason we manage to not be devoured by our dogs and kicked to death by our horses. Also a few thousand years of domestication mean that we rarely if ever have to use violence to get them to comply...

For the record, I've held an 1800 pound draft stallion on a flat halter when he'd attacked another stud. I only remotely struggle with any of my dogs if I'm not paying attention and get caught off-balance--but they're trained so they feel that pull and they stop anyway.

Saying that it is about physical size may not be sexist, but it shows your ignorance.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

..."And as mentioned in many other threads. Take a prong collar, put it around your arm, your leg, even your neck and pull on it - it is not a big deal! but the dogs understand and respect the effect of the prong, it communicates a message to them. A flat is only a physical bump on their way to getting what they want that they can easily ignore if strong enough. "

no doubt, agreed fully. wasn't questioning the use of a prong or any other collar used appropriately. my point was imo a guide to a suitable dog for a specific handler regardless of race, religion or creed and other culture influence gender bias stuff. i think if a dog has the physical ability to overpower the handler the handler should have not be handling that dog. has nothing to do with the training of the dog - just a bench-mark measure independent of gender religion....culture influenced bias stuff.

at my age i got 1 or 2 max, high drive dogs left in me. at that point i will gracefully switch breeds progressively untill i guess i will eventually die with a pomeranian? sitting on my lap.

i already switched from thoroughbreds to warmbloods when next a straight cold blood?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

RowdyDogs - thin girls at sea-world can also train killer whales, and skinny people can drive a bull elephant like a car. wasn't my point - i know training works, just my personal benchmark.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Aww, poor you x11! I'm going to have GSDs 'till I die, no matter how old and frail I get. But maybe I'll adopt senior GSDs then? Who knows, but I'm not living without a GSD. And they can be trained not to lunge and pull, you know.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

do you feel sorry for me for not having a gsd or for having a pomeranian??...jk 

out of curiosity Blanketback, don't know how old you are but have you thought about any provisions for yr gsd should it survive you??? serious question that provokes hysteria for some reason - that is not the intention for asking tho - sorry to OP for the OT.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not going anywhere anytime soon, lol. Besides, isn't it the end of the world on Dec. 21st? JK! DH will look after my menagerie if I die unexpectedly. I know what you mean about people being pulled around by Rotties, I have a neighbor just like that and I can't understand why she refuses to train her dog not to jerk her down the road! I can't stand watching them, seriously. I'd show her my prong, except her JRT is one of the most aggressive dog's I've ever seen and I'm afraid to get near it, lmao.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

personally i like my gsd to walk straining at the end of the leash fanning out in front of me cutting half circles back and forth - to me its how a gsd should present itself.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

x11 said:


> personally i like my gsd to walk straining at the end of the leash fanning out in front of me cutting half circles back and forth - to me its how a gsd should present itself.


So, who is leading who here? What do you do when he sees something from an alien planet that scares the **** out of him/her when he is "fanning out in front of you"? 
WD is only 9 months old so he can respond in an unpredictable way. Otherwise he is nicely trained but it is that "life pops up" stuff you can't avoid. And yes, I have handled horses on a flat halter. If they want they pull over anyone, even you I am sure.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I've not had problems with dogs associating prongs with bad things. In fact if you jingle a prong they will coming running and want to go out! I would not use a prong if you plan to just put it on and let the dog lunge (I know a lot of people think this is how to use it, "self-correcting"). If you use it you need to be comfortable with *using* it, like giving your dog corrections and helping him learn what is appropriate/allowed. When I use a prong for behavior or for training specific things I use "NePoPo" which means the negative is paired with positive, so my dog always gets feedback for responding to the correction and then making the right choice.


What is the NePoPo...?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

marshies said:


> What is the NePoPo...?


 
ita a nice way of saying that pleasure will be the absence of the pain you are now recieving, it's not escape training at all, bart bellon "invented" it, and he wins big trials so no one else is allowed to have an opinion that differs i predict.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

x11 said:


> personally i like my gsd to walk straining at the end of the leash fanning out in front of me cutting half circles back and forth - to me its how a gsd should present itself.


 
To each his own, I think a GSD should present itself by walking leash-free with its owner. But that's what so nice about the breed - the versatility. BTW, my puppy agress with you. He prefers the fanning out as well.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

haha, sounds like a good un. you can always reel it in when you need to.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Wolfy Dog, looks like it got off track a little...... 

6 GSD's. Have used prongs on all of them. This is the one I use: Herm Sprenger Stainless Steel Snap Prong Collar w/Extra Strap - dogsportgear.com

I like it as it does not tighten but still gives additional control.
I too prefer positive methods and never use a prong on a dog under 7 or 8 months. The only time I use the prong is when walking multiple dogs. I do not use it to train heel or other behaviors. 

I am only about 125 pounds and yes, my male can pull me over if he chose to. Havoc is a great boy and very obedient but there are times when the prong is simply another control tool just like a gentle leader or front cliip harness. I have never had a dog create a negative association with it. I suppose that can happen if you are using the prong as a correction collar in the prescence of things the dog shows interest in. If the dog is accustomed to the prong this should not happen.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks everybody. I have now enough input to sit on the fence and make up my mind


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

x11 said:


> i already switched from thoroughbreds to warmbloods when next a straight cold blood?


You're going the wrong direction. 

You should be going from drafts, to WB, to TB's to pony's to mini's as you age.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Thanks everybody. I have now enough input to sit on the fence and make up my mind


Wolfy, BTW, I started using a prong for my girl. She pulls so hard against her flat collar, she chokes herself and I don't want her to hurt her neck. Leash respect seems to be the only thing I'm really stuck on with her. The prong helps a lot.

Do you have room to do a kennel inside? Someone suggested that to me once. Interesting idea for people living in harsher climates

I'd also like to have an outdoor run as an alternative to crating....maybe one of these days!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

MattLink said:


> If you NEED to use that method then do it. But if you don't believe that method is right -- I do think you can find other ways of handling the problem, wether its other tools or just a change to your training, or both. I'm a pretty firm believer that there's always options
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 Excellent advice. That's exactly what I did. My GSD was a lunger also and yes, could pull the leash out of my hands, easy for him at 130 lbs. My neighbor suggested a harness - she uses it on her lab mix. I tried it - front buckle but most importantly the postive training method that goes with it developed by Colorado trainer Alecia Evans - the walk in sync. It has really clicked with him. No more lunging after squirrels, rabbits, other dogs, whatever he wanted to go after. As for the kennel, well, if you can't watch him or aren't home, it would be better than crating - more room to move around. But, I got a GSD because he ants to be with me. And sure, I know the adolescent GSD is difficult, but in my view, it isn't going to help by pushing the dog outside - that can lead to other problems - excessive barking, boredom. Instead I suggest you alternate training sessions (short), playtime (tug, fetch) and quiet time (he practices his down/stay).


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

blackshep said:


> You're going the wrong direction.
> 
> You should be going from drafts, to WB, to TB's to pony's to mini's as you age.


 
haha yr going by size, i am going off what counts - Temperament.

i can find a tree stump to get on / off with. it's the unplanned exits that hurt and come with wrong temperament... seen too many crazy horses (think arab) in small packages so pony i think not.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mary Beth said:


> I know the adolescent GSD is difficult, but in my view, it isn't going to help by pushing the dog outside - that can lead to other problems - excessive barking, boredom. Instead I suggest you alternate training sessions (short), playtime (tug, fetch) and quiet time (he practices his down/stay).


I didn't say that I was going to push him outside. I work with him most throughout the day; training is interwoven into everything I do in his presence, especially the NIFIFF treatment. Once in a while he needs to be crated since I also have a life of my own. And an outdoor kennel would be just the alternative for a crate and to eat his meaty bones. Other than that he is always inside with us.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

x11 said:


> haha yr going by size, i am going off what counts - Temperament.
> 
> i can find a tree stump to get on / off with. it's the unplanned exits that hurt and come with wrong temperament... seen too many crazy horses (think arab) in small packages so pony i think not.


"i figure if you don't have the physical strength to hold a dog on a flat collar should it lunge then you have no business owning that particular dog. 

not being sexist but the biggest rottweilers i have seen are owned by the smallest women i have seen. the dogs end up needing a few extra vertabrae to fit all the gadgets and collars on its neck - and for what??"


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You know your dog best. If you think WD would be happier in an outdoor kennel, then go for it. My GSDs have always told me where they'd like to hang out, and a couple have chosen sitting on the porch over laying on the couch. Much more interesting for them, they tell me, lol.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Mary Beth said:


> Excellent advice. That's exactly what I did. My GSD was a lunger also and yes, could pull the leash out of my hands, easy for him at 130 lbs. My neighbor suggested a harness - she uses it on her lab mix. I tried it - front buckle but most importantly the postive training method that goes with it developed by Colorado trainer Alecia Evans - the walk in sync. It has really clicked with him. No more lunging after squirrels, rabbits, other dogs, whatever he wanted to go after..


I don't have a problem with prong collars, but I agree with this. I've had better results from headcollars and front-pull harnesses like that than prong collars when it comes to controlling a strong dog during training. Particularly if you're already uncomfortable with the prong, that might be the way to go.



wolfy dog said:


> ...especially the NIFIFF treatment...


I'm not familiar with this acronym, could you explain it? I'm guessing it is about the same as NILIF but I can't puzzle it out.


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