# Real Herding Dogs



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Often when you hear people want to justify the evolution of the GS today, you hear the argument used that the German Shepherd was not created for police work(code word aggression), it was created for herding!!!! Then if you go to a conformation show and ask innocently why do these dogs have such extreme sidegaits....you often get the answer that this is needed for the dog to herd sheep effortlessly all day with minimal exertion.(Of course the people who tell you this may never have seen a real sheep, and heard it from a mentor that breeds this type of dog and probably hasn't ever herded any of their dogs to test this, who heard it from a Breed Judge, who more likely than not got their liscense because they handled some dogs to a championship for 10 years and bred some Champions of the same type thus achieving respectability).(Notice that actual knowledge of real herding to justify the existence of this "flying trot" is nowhere to be found.)
Anyway, in the thread "Everybody doesn't want a Sch dog....on page 14, is an article by Manfred Heyne, one of the Great German Shepherd herders of alltime. A man who goes back to the 30's in herding and has mastered the craft of herding and breeding herding dogs. 
So let's go and compare reality in herding with what is taught to people today. 
Now for some people, I know they will FEEL like, "How dare this man criticize the Judges and direction of the breed today....what does he know....DOES HE know more than my mentor or the Breed Judge who sold me on this structure for the "benefit" of the breed?????
For those of you though, who are learning and want to become knowledgable about the breed, have an open mind, and want to be able to own and possess GS that you don't have to make excuses for and can take anywhere?????this is a good read and has some very valuable insights into what the breed should be.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Link: German Shepherd Herding An Interview With Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I'd really like to hear something from those who are actually active in Herding and actively herd flock of sheep and there are quite a few on here, right?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I'd really like to hear something from those who are actually active in Herding and actively herd flock of sheep and there are quite a few on here, right?


Mrs K have you seen these? 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/herding/155584-hgh-training-progress-videos-start.html


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I fall into the category of those that want to learn about the breed with an open mind, so I appreciate this information!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I had the pleasure of seeing a GSD herd sheep last fall, it gave me goosebumps, it was so cool to watch. The way this dog moved, commanded respect, she was very poised and it was just beautiful to see.


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## BlackJack (Jun 23, 2011)

On same website has another article on Manfred Heyne where he talks about his super working dog that can't get a Koer rating because of slight over bite by few MM.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My old bitch, Carmspack Samba, has nice herding lines behind her. When I took her to herding, a herding judge asked me to just put her in the back of her truck. The dog's skill obviously lost on a novice like me! I really have not run across this type of herding intensity and the dog that accompanies it very often. That herding legacy seems more and more further and further back in so many breedings.

I have some "extremish" breed dogs. I have often heard people at the breed ring tell a bystander who was enquiring about the gait that "it is so the dog can herd all day". Gotta say I have never had a working sheep person desirous of this anatomy. I ask the breed people why don't we simply say that the build and gait is something for the breed ring? I guess no one wants to admit to the lack of concentration on overall utility and also justify the looks.

The things I really love in my Samba dog I believe are very much attributable to her inherited herding ability and those genetics. She is also not a dog to be trifled with and protection comes quite naturally to her. No need to put a bunch of control work on her either as she has natural obedience and handler response even when hotter than a fire cracker at a threat.

Hope it not all eventually lost to us over the years of breeding evolution and different paths taken.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

In this age of fitness perhaps that flying trot can be used to accompany joggers/runners 'all day' (???) Lot more of them than sheep.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Samba said:


> I have some "extremish" breed dogs. I have often heard people at the breed ring tell a bystander who was enquiring about the gait that "it is so the dog can herd all day". Gotta say I have never had a working sheep person desirous of this anatomy. I ask the breed people why don't we simply say that the build and gait is something for the breed ring? I guess no one wants to admit to the lack of concentration on overall utility and also justify the looks.


QUITE a few years ago (like 20 or so) I was active in a local herding club. At one of the trials I worked as scribe, which is a very interesting job because you effectively hear the judge's critique of the work as it happens. After finishing the "C" course runs we moved on to the HT and PT tests.....there isn't much to scribe but I got to hang out there anyway. One of the test dogs was a bigshot conformation dog who was very well-known at that time. He was keenly interested in the sheep and seemed to have decent instincts.

Problem was, every time he started to trot, his huge stride sent him flying past the flock....and it wasn't easy for him to turn around and get back where he needed to be! The dog ended up sort of galumphing along next to the sheep rather than trotting. 

I remember the judge looking at me and getting ready to make a comment, and then saying "never mind."


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My oldest did some herding last year, but I had to pull him from his "lessons" due to my work schedule. He did quite well and surprised everyone! He was a tending dog in training. He will resume this role/training this spring.

My youngest female will also start herding this spring.

I am actually really looking forward to this thread!

Again - great idea Cliff!

Can't wait to hear from some more experienced members!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I was amazed at Stosh's natural herding ability the first time we went- he just knew what to do. Like Courtney says, it's so cool to watch. He moves in a completely different way, a natural calm, self-possessed way that he doesn't at any other time. He's not tending but gathering and moving the flock around the arena at this point. He's from WG lines but no herding experience anywhere. He's done obedience and agility so he does fall into the well rounded, all purpose dog that gsds are supposed to be. He's never attempted to put his mouth on a sheep, in fact when one falls he goes over and licks it and cries so he knows he's supposed to be protecting it. It surprises me that so many people are surprised when I say that I'm training him to herd since they are 'shepherds!'. Isn't that what they're supposed to do?


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm a real novice when it comes to the GSD, but I've never understood how the extreme gait could be for the GSD to be able to tend sheep all day. I think of other herding dogs especially my border collies, and none of the other herding breeds have this gait.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

When I took my dog to get his HIC he did great. Quite amazing how quickly they figure things out. He was the only GSD there and only the border collies figured it out quicker. He loved chasing those sheep and getting them to move. If I lived closer to the training grounds I would definately continue, but right now we're more than an hour away. Watching any breed herd is beautiful in my opinion, I just plain love watching dogs react to/use their natural instincts. Like a terrier around a rat, or a husky on a sleigh.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Did anyone read the Feb/2012 National Geographic? It is interesting as it puts the GSD, according to it's DNA in the Mastifflike category with Mastiffs of course and Boxers and really has very little "herder" DNA. "It refects it's breeding as a military and police dog". So this might explain why they are so protective?

The border collie, another great herder has most of its DNA genetic profile in the "Hunter" category. It's a pretty amazing article, talks about how breeders have recombined ancestral stock to create new breeds.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This thread has the makings to be very interesting. I hope more people chime in.opcorn:


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Many years ago, when I first became interested in herding, my would-be instructor told me that only working line dogs could herd. My "show dogs" couldn;t have any instinct because all of the brains had been bred out of them. I took Keno who she proclaimed would never work because I had too much obedience in him (had his CDX). He promptly went out and proved her wrong! As did every other dog I took out there, and most of the other show dogs I introduced to her. They were trained in the "gathering" style (arena)-- we did chores, sorted sheep for lessons, even worked as a set out dog for an Aussie trial. We did mostly AKC, but also AHBA. And they won at trials too. Keno won the Started A course class at the Cardigan Welsh Corgi nationals one year, and Kizzy was Reserve High In Trial at the GSDCA National to a professionally trained and handled dog.

Keno










Kizzy


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Yay! That's what we're doing too!! I think if more gsd owners had the opportunity to herd they would be surprised at the inherent instincts


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay, big question then, why aren't more gsd used for herding in Germany? (or , give you the opportunity - are there )


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> okay, big question then, why aren't more gsd used for herding in Germany? (or , give you the opportunity - are there )


Space. Shepherds still exists. The HGH is still done but it's mainly due to space. Plus, it's not like over here where you simply go to a Shepherd and do the instinct test. Shepherds wouldn't let you touch their flock like they do over here.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bingo -- shepherds still exist - sheep are used by land management for weed control -- but the "breeds" they use go back more to the landrace herding dogs who don't care about registry - use personal or association registries rather than big kennel clubs . They also don't care about "purity" of a breed -- and will interbreed to improve performance - just like it was 150 years ago - before Phylax 
So right , they don't let you touch the flock like they do over here. 
I have had dogs that worked on sheep farms , owned by a judge of "hair" sheep -- got some of the most fabulous merino socks from her -- on dairy farms both in Ontario and BC . Farm dog smarts . 
Most of the youtubeys that I watch showing "herding instinct tests" are pretty bad . Just dogs-gone-wild running and chasing , worrying the sheep - having the "handler" do most of the work , keeping the crook handy to hold the dog at bay --
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Lots of information here about the dogs being used in Germany for herding. 

Right click to use the translator. 
Startseite - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Lots of information here about the dogs being used in Germany for herding.
> 
> Right click to use the translator.
> Startseite - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde



Check that out. Looks like a sable German Shepherd, right? 
Bildergalerien - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde

It's a cross between a Gelbbacke and a Fuchs. 
Die Hütehundschläge - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde

It gives you a general idea how the GSD came together.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Check that out.
> It gives you a general idea how the GSD came together.


I know, it's a great site. I tried to send the link to Doc once but he couldn't get the translator to work if I remember right. (some dogs on there that remind me of his)

I found it while trying to figure out where the longstocks came from. Besides the coat they just look different to me (ears especially, a little shorter, wider at the base and in our female's case, thicker. Almost like the dog came from a colder region) Anyway, that's how I found it and boy, it was really interesting!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

exactly -- and in Hungary there is the Mudi 
hungarian mudi - Google Search
and then the Bohemian shepherd bohemian shepherd - Google Search --
which has been around for 500 years or so in an area which was part of the Hapsburg kingdom , till Czech takeover at end of WW 1 . This bohemian shepherd looks like von Stephanitz did not need to do too much ! - looks like my Mathias - long coat bi-colour , strong herding background related to Samba's Carmspack Samba Watch Bohemian Shepherd Free Online

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> exactly -- and in Hungary there is the Mudi
> hungarian mudi - Google Search
> background related to Samba's Carmspack Samba Watch Bohemian Shepherd Free Online


Nice looking dog Carmen, wish the video was clearer. 

I know someone in Florida with a Mudi. That's one fast little dog!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there was a quote I saw somewhere on one of these sites - that said the character of the herding dog needed the dog to be "hard enough to be run over by sheep and get up and keep working , but soft enough to learn from the experience and avoid this situation - a kick could be fatal "
that is part of the intelligence


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

We did some herding when I was living in Virginia.

To show my dedication, it was a 6 hour round trip every weekend. That is no small time (or financial) commitment.

Mirada did well, but was fairly stupid her first couple of times out.

Overall, the trainer was actually very pleased with her, especially after we had a break for a couple of months. Mirada had a new found maturity working the sheep.

Rada's biggest problem was in the turns. She's softly ligamented and slightly overangulated (for me, anyway....breed ring people always thought she should have more rear....no thank you).

I will say that the trot she used for herding, and the one asked for in the breed ring are two VERY different things.

Is she effortless and easy both ways? For the most part, yes. But when she was herding sheep, it seemed like the pressure was off (if that makes sense), and she was relaxed, and easy in her motion.

She still had reach, she still had drive, but it was not being showcased in the extreme manner asked for in the breed ring.

The extremes of motion asked for in the show ring are, honestly, ludicrous. And this is coming from someone who ENJOYS conformation exhibition.

In the experience I had while we were herding, the speeds asked for in the show ring are not conducive to a dog working sheep. The dogs would all drop dead of heart attacks, regardless of their condition, because they were just pushing themselves to the max ALL the time (because they were taught to/it was demanded of them).

I LOVE watching Mogwai on sheep. I love her effortless movement, I love how she conserves herself, but does not pace, I love how she maintains her concentration.

I will admit, one thing I hate to hear is that "the dog never tired", because it's ludicrous. Dogs are TIRED at the end of a day of work. Dogs are getting tired while working. I personally think a better thing to say is that the dog does not exhaust.

I've kind of gone off on a rambling tangent, but I've never believed the whole "it makes them better at herding" spiel in regards to overangulated dogs.

Is slightly more rear and front beneficial in some cases? IME, yes. To the extremes that it has gone? Not one bit.

But I think one of the things many fanciers forget when they're calling people ignorant, and foolish, is that somebody can be quite educated on the subject, and still disagree with the theories being thrown at them.

Disagreement does not equate to ignorance, much as many would like to believe it does.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Look at that Bohemian Shepherd! I investigated importing one once, but did not get far with my endeavor.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Xeph.....if you are referring to me when I sometimes use ignorance in my posts, I try very hard to use the word in terms of actions and not people. For me the definition of ignorance is a "lack of knowledge"....when I hear theories about extreme sidegait being necessary for herding, and I KNOW this is stupid wrong, then the theory is out of ignorance and the person speaking is ignorant that the staement is not factual or true. It is not necessarily bad, as ignorance is not necessarily bad. We were all ignorant at one time about this breed, but we have options to learn and improve, IF we want to become breeders or fanciers. I am not including owners, but I am primarily speaking to breeders, fanciers, and performers, who are out influencing others and newbies.(That's why I post in breeders section). I just think they have a responsibility to be correct as possible in their information. If people are talking about what color is the best color, than certainly that is an opinion and up to the individual involved. But some assertions or opinions are NOT supported by facts, in these cases the opinions are misleading. Finally, some opinions are not reflective of the norm, but in a few cases can be true. People often put these forth to support their participation in what they do and the dogs they have. 
This is why I started this thread on what a real herding dog is supposed to do, which is the traits we breeders and fanciers should be trying to hold on to. Now if you have a misconception of what it entails to herd sheep, you are very succeptible to "drinking the cool-aid" about what is correct in the breed.
I have seen so many people come on this forum with a little knowledge; spouting out what they were told and what little they had seen as being the gospel.....now its 3-4 years later and they have moved almost completely away from the stuff they were saying in the beginning. In many cases they are getting different types of dog as they acknowledge, with more truthful information, what the breed should be. Others will hold on to their beliefs in the face of facts, but that's the nature of people today. I am always altering my perception of the breed as THE breed changes in front of my face over the years. WHAT I DON'T CHANGE, is the knowledge of what a correct GS should be and do, according to its gifts and legacy. If you won't stand for that, you get caught up in the fads....and the breed slowly goes downhill.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Cliff, I was not referring to you. I was referring to AmLine fanciers who call people ignorant when their dogs are being denigrated.

To a degree, they have the right to be defensive. The majority of these people love their dogs, and it is hard not to be defensive when somebody is calling something you adore and cherish crippled and deformed.

Even of there is some truth to it, that doesn't make it less painful.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is hard if someone personalizes their dogs in such discussion. I always wanted to have the best understanding and found it advantageous to leave personal feelings out of it. That belongs in a different box!! Rational approach best.

I have no problem recognizing or being told my individual dogs (WGWL, ASL, WGSL) have issues or faults, were long bred away from the origin of the breed, missed the mark in courage or working abilities,etc. Really, what is, is. People just have to really apply themselves to gain the dog knowledge that allows an informed assessment.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I have no problem recognizing or being told my individual dogs (WGWL, ASL, WGSL) have issues or faults, were long bred away from the origin of the breed, missed the mark in courage or working abilities,etc.


I am the same...but it seems we are in the minority.

None of my dogs are perfect, and I recognize their faults as well as their virtues


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It's hard leaving the feelings out when it keeps happening over and over though. I don't have an ASL but I train with pretty much all ASLs and it gets to me when uninformed people come on and start making statements due to something they read rather than meeting a dog.

I know plenty of ASLs at my club that got their HIC, maybe not as beautiful as a working line, but they still have the instincts. It would also be awesome to have a dog that could just do it, without much training. But many will need training (like mine). The HIC tests if they have even the slightest interest/ability, and then you can use that to train them to do what you want. Of course there are examples within the breed that are better at it than others, but thats true for all breeds and all venues.

I think once my boy has a little better base of obedience and is closer to 100% on commands without getting distracted, I'll take him to herd a few times. Maybe she'll let him onto the big field instead of just a small pen.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

To me there's nothing more interesting than watching a dog do something it's never been trained to do, and that seems to happen more in herding than in other venues. (I could be wrong, I know that) I like the whole aspect of herding/tending and wish it was something we saw the breed more involved with, but it's easier to produce sleeves and jumps than large herds of sheep!

If the HIT test could be changed, how would you all change it to make it more effective? What do we want to see when the dogs are tested? 

What physical characteristics do we want to see in the breed that are going to give it the stamina and movement it would need to work all day long? Our dogs are bred to a different standard than the GSD, they're a little longer. Is that working for or against them when it comes to how they move?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Check that out. Looks like a sable German Shepherd, right?
> Bildergalerien - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde
> 
> It's a cross between a Gelbbacke and a Fuchs.
> ...


Fascinating. Were these the landrace dogs that Stephanitz used?


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree with Whitshepherds...it's amazing to see a dog's natural ability and instinct immediately put to use. Just before Stosh's first contact with sheep the trainer said I should relax and enjoy the first time because it's just that cool. I've never seen Stosh so relaxed and at home


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Jackie....I understand what you are saying and I try very hard to not call the ASL any names,(lol...thanks to Daphne whom I respect), having said that, I must say that it is difficult for some of us, that want to see every GS be sound in body and mind, understand how people can support something that is more harmful than helpful. I mean like I hear it when people lament BYB and when questioned they say,"Well if you don't support them or patronize them they will die out". There are some good BYB, but by and large probably most of them do not breed dogs that have the best chance of meeting standards. Is that any different than any other group of people that are breeding dogs that YES, there are some that meet the standard in mind and body....but way too many DON'T meet the standard in mind and body. I ask myself why is one group condemned, and the other group given a pass. A mental deficient dog is just as faulty as a structural one. Bad nerves is just as bad as bad hips. Most people on this board would not support a BYB, should they support a venue that is known for mental unsureness. 
See, I can respect a person that likes to show dogs and wants to participate in this arena. So take dogs into the ring that are strong and noble and represent what should be in the breed ring, or any other ring. Then you have my respect, because although you participate in the arena, you are bringing something to the show that reflects what ought to be. (whether that is moderate angulation or rock solid temperament). But when people who know better, give in to fad just to compete, knowing that this trend is not really promoting the breed positively......what's the difference in them and BYB. The end result is the same, but because one group is "higher class " than the other they get a pass???? We should all strive to keep the breed as good as possible, whether we be breeders, owner, or consumer. I guess I am just from old school in which it was always felt," that to the more knowledgable, more is expected", so I am harder on breeders, sport, and fanciers.
Take care Jackie....I feel ya!!lol


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Hey, I have ASLs and know better! 

I don't think I try to convince anyone of anything that is not correct in regards to the dogs in order to promote or justify or something... no, I don't do that.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> So take dogs into the ring that are strong and noble and represent what should be in the breed ring


Many MANY people want to do just that...but showing is expensive, and the people that want to bring in the very dogs you mention are generally not rich. Most cannot afford to pay to lose.

There are many things I'd like to change, and they won't change, because (show) people won't listen to those that haven't finished a champion. Instead, those that want change ate called ignorant, perpetual newbies, and are belittled.

There are some great dogs that are very correct that would never place in an AKC. It is not correctness they lack. It is being fashionable.

Trying to explain to someone why a dog from their breeding is not suitable for SD work? Good way to lose friends, for sure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've taken all my dogs to a local herding instructor at least once. Of the four, Nikon by far is the "best" when it comes to natural instinct. I pay a lot of money to take him out there and just watch him do what he does! Kenya did very well, but she has quite a soft temperament and was recommended to work more "reactive" sheep. The sheep used for her lesson were so used to dogs, even ones that were not good for training and would come at them, she had trouble forcing them to go one way or the other because she lacked that courage and power, but she moved very well in both directions, turned well, and the instructor said she could predict the movement of the sheep. She also understood keeping the sheep together around the shepherd, not just darting in and trying to make a chase. Nikon has the hardness and power that she does not, and he comes from Kirschental lines. The instructor was impressed with his movement and structure and asked me about his breeding. Nikon also turns on a dime, very comfortable both directions, keeping the sheep together and not chasing them, not afraid to go in and bite if he needs to but naturally moves around the edge not just picking a fight or a chase. He turns following the movement of the shepherd, even a slight dip in the instructor's shoulder and he would flip directions. He also showed respect for the staff/paddle. Of my GSDs Pan was by far the worst though the instructor felt he was trainable and should go out again when he's more mature. He just was looking for a chase.

I should say that I've had the pleasure of knowing a 12-times HGH dog and the BSZS HGH Siegerin, bred and trained by Karl Fuller (Kirschental) and used by him as his herding dog before being sold. I've never seen her work sheep but this dog has no SchH title and I've seen her at SchH training and she worked as well as any SchH titled dog in the protection phase. The bitework was as natural for her as a dog who had been SchH trained from puppyhood. One of her sons is a herding dog in CA, several progeny are SchH titled, and one of her daughters was on the national agility team in Italy. Good HGH temperament is valuable across the board - herding, Schutzhund, agility....


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Where is Ulf when you need him to chime in. I am definitely going to get Yoko tested on his sheep. 

Not many people understand about herding sheep either. That different dog breeds are used for different things (herding vs. tending vs. guarding).


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Is the GSD used in the USA for "real farm herding" anywhere??
Reading through the thread many people have "tried" it with their dogs but all in "lessons" with few sheep who are more than likely conditioned to the dogs.

Are there GSD out on farms "working" in real life situations? Are they still required? 

There is more than one way to "herd" a mob of sheep.....here in Australia the GSD would be the last breed you would use as their "way" of herding sheep is not required.......could it be that the way sheep are now "farmed" no longer requires the way the GSD herds???

Just putting it out there......I too would love to see these instincts remain but if people aren't using them then why bother? (and that is not how I feel but maybe how a lot of breeders feel)


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My vet's GSD worked very often with him. He does lots of large animal care and has a farm too. She mostly worked cattle, tough work. She was useful and very functional farm dog. Recently succumbed at 15 yrs old. 

He got her at a wee age as a schutzhund washout. Awful young to washout, IMO. But, he got a great bitch and farm hand.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it is rare. How many people in the USA have 300+ head of sheep AND are knowledgeable in GSDs AND are prepared to help people test and train their dogs? No, half a dozen sheep in half an acre is not the same but you can still *see* some things if you know what you're looking for.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It seams like there was a new member here on the forum that was a sheep farmer. She was lamenting that she could not find any German Shepherd Dogs in rescue that were suitable for real farm work. I can't remember her user name. It would be interesting to hear an actual sheep farmer chime in.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

We live in such an urban area, I wish my dog could herd something besides the cats in our house.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We are not really sheep country here either. There are few places to herd but a far drive for us anyway. Really quite barren here... no sheep, no schutzhund, etc. We just do what is available.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Are there GSD out on farms "working" in real life situations? Are they still required?


My parents have one on the Horse Farm but you can't possibly call that work since all he does is lay in the sun, run around the farm and greet the customers.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Yay! That's what we're doing too!! I think if more gsd owners had the opportunity to herd they would be surprised at the inherent instincts


As for inherent, I wonder if it is just a dog thing to herd. Would a poodle, or a jack russle or a mutt just go ahead and start herding? Have any studies been done on that? After all, look at BABE.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> As for inherent, I wonder if it is just a dog thing to herd. Would a poodle, or a jack russle or a mutt just go ahead and start herding? Have any studies been done on that? After all, look at BABE.


I can guarantee you that Jack Russel don't herd. Besides GSD's my parents have Jack Russel as well. They try to kill anything smaller and at least attempt to kill everything bigger and if they could, they'd take down a horse as well... :rofl: (and yes, I'm joking  )


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

robk said:


> It seams like there was a new member here on the forum that was a sheep farmer. She was lamenting that she could not find any German Shepherd Dogs in rescue that were suitable for real farm work. I can't remember her user name. It would be interesting to hear an actual sheep farmer chime in.


Well.....we run around 3000 sheep here on our farm at any one time.....we derive half our annual income from selling prime lambs (to you guys) and wool the other half comes from crops......I guess I am an "actual sheep farmer"
The lady who came on looking for a GSD to use was wanting to replace her border collies which they had been using for 20 years. She was questioned about what she wanted to do with the GSD as border collies and the GSD herd in entirely different ways but she disappeared. I was very interested in what she was wanting to do on her farm.

I guess i can just see the dilemma in that keeping good GSD who can actually herd but having little opportunity to "work" them in the correct environment. The article Cliff put up was very interesting but where in the US or Australia or even Germany is it done like that these days.

I do use our GSD here when we move our sheep around......we move them in mobs 500 or bigger....200 is a very small mob of sheep and we don't run mobs that small......he is "useful" and LOVES it. It is great for his training....learning self control etc and he does definitely show natural instincts for it. It has taken time to be able to leave him working with the sheep while we are in the ute following and our Kelpie does most of the work but he has a "job" and enjoys himself......but even there he is working more like a kelpie than a GSD cause that is just how we do it......the more the dog does the less we have to do.... Our neighbors think I am nuts even letting a GSD near sheep but see over here they are sheep killers not herders....... but then they all thought I was nuts getting donkeys to protect our sheep but now they all have them so who knows maybe I will start something with my GSD too.......

Just wanted to add that I do see the importance of keeping the "herding" ability in the breed even if it is not utilized as such as from reading the other thread I can see how these abilities are what makes up a big part of the GSD.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for that post, Sparra. Sounds like your GSD has a good time and feels useful!

I've been amazed by how much herding instinct is retained in the schutzhund bloodlines. I've seen some issues in the balance of drives/hardness/instinct--you can see too much prey or too much hardness or too much hecticness if the balance isn't right for herding. But really, these things can cause trouble in schutzhund too if they're unbalanced. 

Too much drive makes herding harder, but at the same time you need ENOUGH drive. You need hardness to the sheep but good responsiveness to the handler. But in herding you need prey, you need defense, you need control and a dog who works because s/he wants to be there. You need enough hardness for the dog to handle the control, but enough sensitivity that the dog isn't off working (hunting) the sheep without consulting the human. You need a dog who can handle independent confrontation with the sheep (decoy) but who maintains clarity and control and confidence before, during, and after such a confrontation. 

Herding takes an amazing balance of drive, control, independence, teamwork, instinct and training. I think that's one reason it's such a enthralling activity for me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Excellent post Christine, and these are the traits that good breeders emphasize and breed for whether you have sheep or not. Not things like color, angulation, big heads, extreme drives, etc, no the good breeder strives for that balance of the things you described. And sch and herding is the best way of determining these things if you are a breeder and don't work your dogs for a living. Europe figured this out many many years ago.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Herding is hard. As Christine talked about you need enough, but not too much, I was reminded of the complexity of the work. You have to be able to control it. The dog has to want to work with you cooperatively. It also has to have confidence and independence. If a breeder gets that balance right, then there is something really great in front of you. It is a lot harder to breed for this than breeding for physical attributes and leaving off the balance of many other traits. If you start doing that in an unbalanced way, the breed itself is lost and you are left with a color and a shape! People showing often talk about breed type. The strong herding type is really what it is supposed to be, and not just a type that can do some AKC herding tests either.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Jun 20, 2011)

Don't have sheep, but I do have 200 +/- dairy goats and work them on 1000 acres. Lost my GSD girl last year and have been trying to find another, but it has been hard, because everyone equates working dog with Sport and the ones I have looked at are full of show lines and just not able to work 18-20 hours a day, everyday with me in the field. Their bodies just can not handle it.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

German Shepherd Herding

Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training

I don't know if you have looked here or not. I have no direct knowledge of these kennels, they are just saved in my GSD kennels list.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> Don't have sheep, but I do have 200 +/- dairy goats and work them on 1000 acres. Lost my GSD girl last year and have been trying to find another, but it has been hard, because everyone equates working dog with Sport and the ones I have looked at are full of show lines and just not able to work 18-20 hours a day, everyday with me in the field. Their bodies just can not handle it.


Where did you get your GSD girl? There are lots of GSDs doing herding, but don't know of anyone in your immediate area... maybe someone else can help? Would you be willing to have a pup shipped?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Look at White Clover Farm. Utz has Harding German shepherds on the farm.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I meant to mention Utz, but couldn't remember his kennel name.

Von Sontausen has some herding dogs, my Vinca in fact loves to herd, though I haven't done much training in that aspect. She's definitely one that could go all day.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I got Gemma when she was returned to the breeder in poor shape at 10 months, didn't even know her name, 20 pounds underweight and loaded with ticks and parasites. Got her healthy and over her first heat and while attending a herding seminar with her brother Ty, they agreed to do her HIC. Susan Sullivan was the trainer, and works many seminars. Over 40 sheep, in about 5 acres fenced. I walked the boundary with Gemma on lead, her first view of sheep, then I was told to release her..she moved around the straw on ground border to get somewhat behind the sheep, then they ran....She chased, turned them and kept them in a tight circle, keeping them under control while keeping the sheep away from the people, we waited abotu 20 minutes til she calmed enough for us to get close enough to catch her..she did come but obviously wanted to keep her sheep.. Trainer said she had tons of instinct and self control.

A year later another seminar, she was the only beginner to advance to the big field...she was good enough I just got a request from someone there as to if she would ever have pups as they were so impressed with her abilities...Gemma has been spayed I never wanted to breed, but she has tons of drive and instinct...

Our find "Waldo...er..Gemma"


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Two weeks ago was my first experience with what would be called "herding"

I was walking with my two dogs unleashed, doing some trekking in the mountains and in our way back we encountered a herd of about 20 cows and their calves. I encouraged the dogs to go after them, first because I wanted to see their reactions and second because it would be safer for everyone if the cows returned to the pastures and off the road.

Diabla really impressed me and for the first time, I almost regretted spaying her (a very short "almost" because the main reasons are health related). All the long discussions about genetic obedience made sense seeing her work the cattle!!! Diabla started with gattering the animals that were scattered in one group on the road and then proceeded to move them. All of this was so natural that I didn't had to do nothing more than let her know that she was allowed to play with the cattle. Then we moved the herd for about one km until we found a gate and the cows entered there.

Diabla would just walk behind them, relaxed but attentive, no chasing except when she reunited them and a young bull needed extra encouraging. She kept them moving at a steady pace, but if I encouraged her she would push them them barking and even biting heels. If a cow turned around and faced her, which happened more than once, because they were with calf, she would confront the cow and bark face to face to put her in her place. 

At any moment I was able to recall her, to ask her to heel at my side and to platz on her site. That ability to be so focused on a task yet obey at a command given at distance and in normal voice, with no previous experience whatsoever, is something that you really have to see to understand. I can now say that my dog HAS magical drives.

And Akela? Akela decided that these were Diabla's cows and than to mess with them would be dangerous... There is more than one way to be smart. 

I have some very poor quality videos, but I'll see if I can rescue something.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

I did have a small herd of sheep, but sold them last year. Now I just have dairy goats. However, I am thinking about buying sheep again ... we shall see.

I have a small breeding operation and my goal are dogs that can herd. We kept back a male that was POL, but he turned out to be extreme in drive, which did not suit our purposes and we sold him to a police department. Sport people would have loved him, but he was not balanced enough for herding and thus not for our breeding program. I am down to just 3 dogs that I find suitable for herding. They are not extreme dogs, but are higher in drive and very well balanced over all.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> Don't have sheep, but I do have 200 +/- dairy goats and work them on 1000 acres. Lost my GSD girl last year and have been trying to find another, but it has been hard, because everyone equates working dog with Sport and the ones I have looked at are full of show lines and just not able to work 18-20 hours a day, everyday with me in the field. Their bodies just can not handle it.


I'm in central Virginia and do herding with some of my GSDs. What sort of herding do you do that you'd be herding 18+ hours a day?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Wow Catu, that is an amazing story!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I have an AM show line male GSD from one of the top show kennels. Just for the heck of it we did a HIT with him a while ago. The judge was a hard core Herding practicioner and judge who didn't particularly like GSD's (she told me afterward!) who was very much into BC's.

After the test, as we were coming out of the corral, she turned to me and sais "I LIKE THAT DOG!". He did fantastic in the evaluation. 

And it was a great deal of fun to see a GSD (even a pure SL) herding those sheep around and keeping them together and instinctually going after the ones that broke away from the group and bringing them back into the group!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Catu, I loved your story. That must have been beautiful to watch. Out of curiosity, could you post a link to Diabla's pedigree?


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Jun 20, 2011)

Andaka said:


> German Shepherd Herding
> 
> Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training
> 
> I don't know if you have looked here or not.


Thanks, I actually consider Ellen a good friend, she and I talked a lot after I lost my Heidi.

Ulf is a character, he told me my girl was a dream and none of his dogs would ever compare. At least he was honest.


@Christine sorry I was talking about kidding/lambing season, in the thick of it right now, so my brain is a little mushy.


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