# Would you feel comfortable letting your dog around a pit bull?



## misterW

Here's my situation:

I have a 2 year old unspayed female (Eva) who I've had since 8 weeks. We live in a rural area, which has its pros and cons as far as dogs. On one hand, we go for long, unleashed walks in the woods every day. On the other, she doesn't have as much opportunity to meet other dogs as she might elsewhere. 

From the beginning, I made attempts to socialize her w/ dogs and people. 

With people, she is great. I take her everywhere and she is a favorite at all the local hardware stores. 

It was hard to find other dogs for her to play with. I actually put ads in the local paper searching for playmates. I found one dog, who she still regularly plays with, and a few others who she sees infrequently. She is great with these dogs. 

I also took her to a dog park about once a month whenever I visited my girlfriend, who had moved to DC. She was shy at times, but also made many friends there. 

However, as she grew older, she has become fairly territorial of our property (with regard to dogs). I know that if a strange dog showed up on our property, she would let them know that it was her place, in no uncertain terms. This is not unexpected, and I don't really have a problem with that. There was also an instance where we stopped by at a friend's house and they unexpectedly had a guest with a bull mastiff. When we got out of our vehicle, the mastiff trotted right up to me and Eva took exception to that, getting in his face and doing the whole snarling/fighting routine that doesn't include any actual biting. The dog backed away, and they were relatively fine after that. I suspect the dog being male made him much more tolerant of her behavior than he might otherwise. 

Now to get to the point:

My friend has a male neutered pitpull and has expressed in interest in having him meet Eva. I am not concerned with the pitbull being aggressive initially; I am just concerned what might happen if she decides to act tough with him. I wouldn't want some stupid, harmless display of hers to trigger an actual serious attack on his part. 

Suppose for the sake of the argument the pitbull has no history of attacking other dogs. Would you still be concerned? 

Of course, if they were to meet, I would arrange for it to happen on neutral territory. Anyway, thoughts?


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## N Smith

Yes I would be concerned, not because of the breed but because you have no control over your dog. What may seem harmless to you is not harmless in dog, the previous bullmastiff could have been very confident, more mature or just naturally more tolerant - he was the exception, not the rule when it comes to dog who act like yours.

If you PROPERLY intro these two you could have everything go great, but I would not intro them by letting them sort it out themselves. On leash, neutral ground after they have had a leashed walk together for the first few times, then go from there based on their behavior. No face to face at first, only butt to face, until they start to exhibit play behaviors. No posturing, vocalizing or aggression allowed!

I would get a handle on your girls "protectiveness" (IMO - Insecurities) now. It will only get worse in the future. IMO, aggression should not be demostrated by a dog unless the owner/situation calls for it (ie owner is not there/unconcious or something). This will take desensitization, a whole lot of patience and time.

If your girl at all exhibits these behaviors at the dog park, stop taking her there. Allowing her to practice these behaviors with no consequence is not OK, neither is putting her in situations where she feels the need to defend herself. She should look to you to protect her.

Have you used marker training before?


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## fuzzybunny

I see no harm in meeting on neutral territory and going for a walk with both dogs on leash. I would not let them meet/sniff or anything before the walk. Assuming the walk goes well and neither dog has displayed inappropriate behaviour, then I would let them meet on leash and see how it goes. I would do this on a few separate occasions before they are off leash together. I'm not a big fan of just letting two dogs off leash and seeing how it goes, especially if one has displayed some inappropriate behaviour in the past. Better safe than sorry.


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## Courtney

I'm not comfortable letting my dog around _any_ breed that is unkown to me.


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## kiya

I hate to admit there have been pits around when we've been out & about, I steared clear, but I did not know them. 
Some pits are very sweet, I'd rather get to know the dog without my dog then make a decission.


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## Courtney

Can't playing, interacting & training with you be enough for Eva?

I don't understand the need for our dogs to have doggie friends and play dates? Maybe I'm a stick in the mud lol


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## DJEtzel

I would have to know how the dog played with other dogs, take them for a long walk, and let them meet on leash to control both dogs. Some pits play absolutely great with all other dogs, some have a very low threshold and if something sets them off, they will kill whatever dog is closest. You would have to either know how to notice the signs of a short fuse, trust that their owner knows, or take the risk, always.


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## misterW

Courtney said:


> Can't playing, interacting & training with you be enough for Eva?
> 
> I don't understand the need for our dogs to have doggie friends and play dates? Maybe I'm a stick in the mud lol


I'm sure it could be. This would be more about convenience than anything -- ie if the two got along well, I could visit the friend without leaving the dog behind. Or vice versa.


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## misterW

DJEtzel said:


> I would have to know how the dog played with other dogs, take them for a long walk, and let them meet on leash to control both dogs. Some pits play absolutely great with all other dogs, some have a very low threshold and if something sets them off, they will kill whatever dog is closest. You would have to either know how to notice the signs of a short fuse, trust that their owner knows, or take the risk, always.


Yeah, the thing that concerns me is the potential short fuse. That might be pretty difficult to spot before something happened.


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## gsdraven

It would depend on the individual dogs in question... not just the breed. Not all dogs have the same play style which can lead to problems. I've noticed that bullys play different from shepherds and that it doesn't always go over well with one or the other. How well it's tolerated depends on the thresholds of the dogs involved.

If your goal is to bring your dog along, they don't necessarily have to play as much as they just need to tolerate each other.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I've had my dogs around many very nice, friendly pits - we run into them at the off leash parks all the time. The closest any of us have gotten to being injured by a pittie is when one gave me a welt on my leg from wagging it's skinny tail into me while it was meeting my dogs. Those tails are like whips, lol! 

Whether or not I'd let my dogs meet ANY particular dog would have a lot more to do with how _my_ dogs reacted to new dogs and what the other dog was like with regards to behavior, training and socialization, not what breed the other dog was.


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## GSDBESTK9

Courtney said:


> Can't playing, interacting & training with you be enough for Eva?
> 
> I don't understand the need for our dogs to have doggie friends and play dates? Maybe I'm a stick in the mud lol


:rofl: This is the mentality us, Schutzhund People have, but most pet owners think their dogs HAVE to have doggie friends and playdates. Then they complaint/ask why their dogs are more interested in playing and interacting with other dogs than with them. 

The only dogs our dogs play with and on a very limited basis is our other dogs. We may allow a very young puppy to interact with another young puppy (of the same age) but not for very long.

We as handlers/trainers/owners should be the center of their attention and they should want to be with us more than with another dog. Having doggie friends and playdates is not going to accomplish that.  But like I said, pet people feel different, their relationship are some what different.


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## TrickyShepherd

I grew up with Pits, rescued/raised a few of them myself. I've never had an issue. My golden retriever helped me raise them, they were always around her. Zira's around pits often as well. My family's dogs, some friend's dogs, and occasionally when out on the town we run into some. I have no problem with that. I don't use the breed as an excuse. Instead, I treat them like I would ANY dog. I am cautious with meeting/introducing any dog, not breed specific. 

In your case, If the pit is dog friendly and not aggressive... I see no problem with the two meeting on neutral grounds. You know your dog best. If you feel your dog would enjoy the company and enjoy the play time and their temperaments line up... then try to introduce them. If you are careful and do it right, no harm will come from them meeting. Just introduce slowly, and don't let your nerves pass to your dog. She will just react from that, and it wont go well right from the start. I wouldn't treat this as a "my dog is meeting a pit bull" thing, just a "my dog is meeting a new dog" thing. 

Either way, I hope things go well for you and your dog.


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## misterW

N Smith said:


> Yes I would be concerned, not because of the breed but because you have no control over your dog.


Impressive that you reach such an absolute conclusion from a sentence-long outline of a singular incident. 



> IMO, aggression should not be demostrated by a dog unless the owner/situation calls for it (ie owner is not there/unconcious or something).


While the aggression was most likely misplaced in the incident in question, I am not so sure that her reaction was completely inappropriate, given the circumstances. A strange dog appears unexpectedly and moves quickly towards the owner without any calming signals. The dog's tail is docked making it even more difficult to determine the dog's intentions. She has but a few seconds before the dog reaches me. Doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me. Also, she does not bite the dog and stops her aggressive display after a few words. Again, her behavior was misplaced in this instance, but... waiting until I'm unconscious to show aggression?? That's really what you want?



> If your girl at all exhibits these behaviors at the dog park, stop taking her there.


I believe I said that she made quite a few friends at the dog park, although she was a bit shy at times. The shyness decreased the more she went, but we were only able to go very infrequently. If she acted aggressively there, I certainly wouldn't bring her. You seem prone to making snap judgements. Perhaps getting more information first would improve your analysis as well as the quality of the dialogue. 


> Have you used marker training before?


Yes, I have used it to train her to heel off leash in stores and to pick up and carry an object on command, but that is not the issue. If you are suggesting using it to shape her behavior when encountering strange dogs, the issue is that there are very few dogs to practice on around here.


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## sashadog

In my experience, any dog that can be reactive with other dogs should not be off leash around other dogs, especially other strong breeds. Both my females can be reactive with other dogs and can set off an otherwise friendly dog with their behavior. She sets off the wrong dog and it could be really ugly. 

If other friendly dogs even get close to you and she reacts negatively, I wouldn't be considering introducing her to more dogs, I would be working on her reactivity. This should be under control before any new introductions, regardless of the breed of the other dog, IMO.


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## Germanshepherdlova

No, I would not trust either of my dogs around a pit bull or most other dogs for that matter. My GSD is dominant and my lab is dog aggressive-definitely not a good idea for us.


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## Frankly I'm Frank

GSDBESTK9 said:


> :rofl: This is the mentality us, Schutzhund People have, but most pet owners think their dogs HAVE to have doggie friends and playdates. Then they complaint/ask why their dogs are more interested in playing and interacting with other dogs than with them.
> 
> The only dogs our dogs play with and on a very limited basis is our other dogs. We may allow a very young puppy to interact with another young puppy (of the same age) but not for very long.
> 
> *We as handlers/trainers/owners should be the center of their attention and they should want to be with us more than with another dog. Having doggie friends and playdates is not going to accomplish that.  But like I said, pet people feel different, their relationship are some what different.*


My dog enjoys playing with other dogs and does so on a regular basis. That does not change the fact that, for him, the sun rises and sets on my say so. I am everything to him but that doesn't keep him from having a good time with his dog friends. I can call him away at any time and he happily comes with me.
As for the OP's question. Pits, like other breeds, have all sorts of temperaments. There are sweet ones and nasty ones and in between ones. Just like with your children you have to be aware of your child's personality and that of whomever he/she plays with if you are hoping for a successful encounter and experience.


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## TrickyShepherd

gsdraven said:


> It would depend on the individual dogs in question... not just the breed. Not all dogs have the same play style which can lead to problems. I've noticed that bullys play different from shepherds and that it doesn't always go over well with one or the other. How well it's tolerated depends on the thresholds of the dogs involved.
> 
> If your goal is to bring your dog along, they don't necessarily have to play as much as they just need to tolerate each other.



Very true! Some breeds really do play completely different. When Zira was in puppy training class, we would have 'play time' after. For the first few weeks everyone always claimed Z was aggressive. Thankfully, both her trainer and I knew that she was just a 'shepherd'. She played loud, mouthy, and very rough. She also enjoyed 'herding' other dogs. However, still to this day I have to explain to people that, that is how they play. One of the reasons I stopped going to dog parks. I got tired of hearing my dog was aggressive just because she was being noisy and jumping up/hopping around everywhere like a horse.


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## GSDBESTK9

Frankly I'm Frank said:


> My dog enjoys playing with other dogs and does so on a regular basis. That does not change the fact that, for him, the sun rises and sets on my say so. I am everything to him but that doesn't keep him from having a good time with his dog friends. I can call him away at any time and he happily comes with me.


Good for you!


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## VegasResident

gsdraven said:


> It would depend on the individual dogs in question... not just the breed. Not all dogs have the same play style which can lead to problems. I've noticed that bullys play different from shepherds and that it doesn't always go over well with one or the other. How well it's tolerated depends on the thresholds of the dogs involved.
> 
> If your goal is to bring your dog along, they don't necessarily have to play as much as they just need to tolerate each other.


Agree. My boy tends to like the play level of other GSDs, huskies, and malmutes. He like prick ear dogs and how they play. However his first "girlfirend" was a bullie mix as they do not take pure bullies at his daycare due to insurance issues. So it really is individual to the dog.


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## VegasResident

TrickyShepherd said:


> Very true! Some breeds really do play completely different. When Zira was in puppy training class, we would have 'play time' after. For the first few weeks everyone always claimed Z was aggressive. Thankfully, both her trainer and I knew that she was just a 'shepherd'. She played loud, mouthy, and very rough. She also enjoyed 'herding' other dogs. However, still to this day I have to explain to people that, that is how they play. One of the reasons I stopped going to dog parks. I got tired of hearing my dog was aggressive just because she was being noisy and jumping up/hopping around everywhere like a horse.


LOL. Yeah if you ever saw the GSDs playing at our daycare you would swear they were killing each other. They are just vocal, jumpy, tacklers. They are definitely rough and tumble. My boy straight out tackles as do the other GSDs


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## misterW

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Whether or not I'd let my dogs meet ANY particular dog would have a lot more to do with how _my_ dogs reacted to new dogs and what the other dog was like with regards to behavior, training and socialization, not what breed the other dog was.


I agree with much of what you are saying, but the reason I am more cautious about meeting a pitbull is that: 

(a) a dog bred for fighting may be more likely to escalate relatively harmless posturing into a serious conflict, and
(b) if a conflict does occur, a pitbull can do a **** of a lot more damage than the mutts she normally hangs out with

For example, the pit in question (as far as I know) has never had problems with other dogs and is quite friendly to people. But I do know that when he gets excited he has locked his jaws around things (like a hanging rope) and apparently refused to let go for considerable periods of time, despite (second hand report) his gums actually bleeding from the exertion


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## VegasResident

misterW said:


> I agree with much of what you are saying, but the reason I am more cautious about meeting a pitbull is that:
> 
> (a) a dog bred for fighting may be more likely to escalate relatively harmless posturing into a serious conflict, and
> (b) if a conflict does occur, a pitbull can do a **** of a lot more damage than the mutts she normally hangs out with
> 
> For example, the pit in question (as far as I know) has never had problems with other dogs and is quite friendly to people. But I do know that when he gets excited he has locked his jaws around things (like a hanging rope) and apparently refused to let go for considerable periods of time, despite (second hand report) his gums actually bleeding from the exertion


I will go with the simple answer here, rather than opening up the whole breed.

If you are uncomfortable for any reason about a dog, any dog, regardless of breed, do not let them play.

You seem to have some reservations about this dog so go with your gut instinct. 

It is easier to make a decision dog by dog than try to evaluate a whole breed.


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## misterW

sashadog said:


> If other friendly dogs even get close to you and she reacts negatively, I wouldn't be considering introducing her to more dogs


This is not how I would characterize it. I would say that she reacted negatively on one occasion to a dog that quickly came up to us. 

That being said...


> I would be working on her reactivity. This should be under control before any new introductions, regardless of the breed of the other dog, IMO.


How would you suggest working on reactivity? The problem I have is a lack of dogs for practice. I suspect if she saw dogs all the time, she might have been less jumpy about the mastiff running up on us. But as it is, seeing a new dog is pretty exciting business, and lots of excitement + the mystery of not knowing what a strange dog will turn out to be ... I can understand why her reaction might be a little ...unsophisticated.


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## misterW

VegasResident said:


> I will go with the simple answer here, rather than opening up the whole breed.
> 
> If you are uncomfortable for any reason about a dog, any dog, regardless of breed, do not let them play.
> 
> You seem to have some reservations about this dog so go with your gut instinct.
> 
> It is easier to make a decision dog by dog than try to evaluate a whole breed.


My only impression of this dog has been that he is friendly to people and once astounded me by (in play) tearing a fair size sapling in half at the end of my driveway (a few years before I got my dog). I'm just worried that some stupid little thing might set him off. No rationale grounds for being worried about this particular dog.


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## MountainGSDs

Courtney said:


> I don't understand the need for our dogs to have doggie friends and play dates? Maybe I'm a stick in the mud lol


I agree.... it is really a human thing.


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## misterW

MountainGSDs said:


> I agree.... it is really a human thing.


I don't know if I'd go that far. Dogs, like most primates, are very social animals, and I'd think anyone would be hard pressed to deny that they enjoy playing with other dogs. Sure, they can be happy just living with humans, but they clearly don't play and interact with humans in the same way. 

It also happens that (a) I enjoy watching dogs chase each other around, (b) it gives me an opportunity to practice commands with her while there are distractions, (c) it gives her some good exercise without me walking her, and (d) it's not all that much of an inconvenience. So, it works for me, anyway.


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## N Smith

misterW said:


> *Impressive that you reach such an absolute conclusion from a sentence-long outline of a singular incident. #1*
> 
> 
> 
> While the aggression was most likely misplaced in the incident in question, I am not so sure that her reaction was completely inappropriate, given the circumstances. A strange dog appears unexpectedly and moves quickly towards the owner without any calming signals. *The dog's tail is docked making it even more difficult to determine the dog's intentions.#2* She has but a few seconds before the dog reaches me. Doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me. Also, she does not bite the dog and stops her aggressive display after a few words. Again, her behavior was misplaced in this instance, but... waiting until I'm unconscious to show aggression?? *That's really what you want?#3*
> 
> 
> *I believe I said that she made quite a few friends at the dog park, although she was a bit shy at times.#4* The shyness decreased the more she went, but we were only able to go very infrequently. If she acted aggressively there, I certainly wouldn't bring her. You seem prone to making snap judgements. Perhaps getting more information first would improve your analysis as well as the quality of the dialogue.
> 
> *Yes, I have used it to train her to heel off leash in stores and to pick up and carry an object on command, but that is not the issue. If you are suggesting using it to shape her behavior when encountering strange dogs, the issue is that there are very few dogs to practice on around here.#5[/*QUOTE]
> 
> #1.I am sorry if I came across as "judgmental", that was not my intent, but yes, if your dog needs to react this way to a dog coming out of nowhere, then there is something missing, control. If your dog feels a threat, they should look to you to ask what to do next, it is not something automatic, it needs to be trained, learned and maintained.
> 
> #2. Having a tail docked means almost nothing - there is a lot more to body language than the tail; and obviously the dog was not projecting ill intent or it would have acted on those projections.
> 
> #3. Nope - I want the dog to look to ME for direction, unless I am not there/unable to. You are taking this all wrong, as an attack rather than a critisism. If your dog is NON reactive, you can actually change the behaviors of dogs that are (as you witnessed with the Bull mastiff), so by training your dog to look to you rather than react you can prevent an attack on her later.
> 
> #4. As I said, IF she exhibited the behaviors stop bringing her, if not, then fine. I think at this point you had decided I was the enemy and on the defense for other things I might bring up.
> 
> #5. That was not my intent with the marker training - I was wondering if she had been exposed to it so she could then have it used to desensitize her to the dogs approaching her, to help condition a better response.
> 
> Hope this helps, and I hope we can communicate better from this point on.


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## kitmcd

I love playing with Isa and it seems she loves playing with me, but she also loves doggie-doggie interaction. My daughter's pit/lab visited over the holidays and she was in 7th heaven.


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## chicagojosh

Cody's only "buddy" outside our other dog is a pitbull. they have a blast wrestling and chasing each other.

they met when Cody was about 1 year old, and the pit was about 4 months...


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## Mrs.K

MountainGSDs said:


> I agree.... it is really a human thing.


Yes... I think it's the "surrogate" child effect. Just like Kids have to have play dates, people think doggies have to have them too.


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## chicagojosh

here they are after an hour of madness


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## Stevenzachsmom

misterW said:


> I don't know if I'd go that far. *Dogs, like most primates, are very social animals, and I'd think anyone would be hard pressed to deny that they enjoy playing with other dogs.* Sure, they can be happy just living with humans, but they clearly don't play and interact with humans in the same way.
> 
> It also happens that (a) I enjoy watching dogs chase each other around, (b) it gives me an opportunity to practice commands with her while there are distractions, (c) it gives her some good exercise without me walking her, and (d) it's not all that much of an inconvenience. So, it works for me, anyway.


Not all dogs. My dog loves humans. Hates dogs. Always has. She just turned 14 and has lived a wonderful long life without playing with other dogs. In her old age, she has made one doggie friend, who lives in the yard behind us. Oddly, her friend happens to be a pit bull mix. And a female at that. Go figure.


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## Frankly I'm Frank

Mrs.K said:


> Yes... I think it's the "surrogate" child effect. Just like Kids have to have play dates, people think doggies have to have them too.


I don't see the problem with allowing one's dog to have a good time and get a lot of exercise it would not otherwise get. In one half-hour of playing they can get miles of running in, running that would take an owner hours to provide. Everyone does not have the time or physical ability to provide a high level of exercise. Dogs don't 'have to have' play dates but they surely can be a part of a dog's socialization and exercise. Calling it a surrogate child effect sounds like a put-down and an unnecessary one.


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## kitmcd

I agree that it's not "necessary" and it's not for every dog. Right now my 5 month old GSD loves to play and when a younger tolerant dog is around to run and chase with, she loves it and it gives her a great amount of exercise. My two older dogs (Pit/boxer age 8 and beagle age 9) just do not enjoy any extended play time with her....about 10 min is their limit. My beagle is also one who has never enjoyed other dogs, just tolerates them. Give her a strange human or another dog and she picks the human every time.

IMHO I don't think there is any "right" or "wrong", it's what works best with you and with your individual dog.


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## Mrs.K

> IMHO I don't think there is any "right" or "wrong", it's what works best with you and with your individual dog.


:thumbup:




> I don't see the problem with allowing one's dog to have a good time and get a lot of exercise it would not otherwise get. In one half-hour of playing they can get miles of running in, running that would take an owner hours to provide. Everyone does not have the time or physical ability to provide a high level of exercise. Dogs don't 'have to have' play dates but they surely can be a part of a dog's socialization and exercise. Calling it a surrogate child effect sounds like a put-down and an unnecessary one.


I've got multiple dogs myself, that get to play together, if I let them to. I wouldn't go out to seek play dates. However, if you see that your dog doesn't do well around other dogs, why force it on the dog? 

There are people that just won't stop trying to have play dates or going to the dog parks, even though there were multiple incidents already. They are blind to the fact that staying away from stuff like that is the best thing to do and that is because Society almost dictates that any dog, has got to be social and to play with other dogs and it almost looks like you are a bad dog owner if you don't have them play with others or say that you don't want your dog to play with others...


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## GSDolch

Mrs.K said:


> Yes... I think it's the "surrogate" child effect. Just like Kids have to have play dates, people think doggies have to have them too.



I have four kids, why the heck would I need to "surrogate" with my dogs?

While it might not be something everyone wants to do, there is most certainly nothing wrong with it. Some dogs enjoy it, some dogs do not. If a dog did not enjoy it then maybe judgements such as this one would fit. (But that might bring up other issues too! lol)

OP, if you want to try, I see no reason not to. Either way its not going to hurt anything to try if you go about it properly. Neutral ground, maybe start taking them for walks on leash, etc etc. And see how it goes. Take it slowly.


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## GSDolch

Mrs.K said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've got multiple dogs myself, that get to play together, if I let them to. I wouldn't go out to seek play dates. However, if you see that your dog doesn't do well around other dogs, why force it on the dog?
> 
> There are people that just won't stop trying to have play dates or going to the dog parks, even though there were multiple incidents already. They are blind to the fact that staying away from stuff like that is the best thing to do and that is because Society almost dictates that any dog, has got to be social and to play with other dogs and it almost looks like you are a bad dog owner if you don't have them play with others or say that you don't want your dog to play with others...



In the OP cases though there has not really been any incidents. So I really don't see why people have to take issue to them wanting a play mate. One incident with a dog getting in her face is hardly a cause to peg the dog as not wanting to play with other dogs.


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## Syaoransbear

It usually depends on the dog, but I've noticed most terriers have different playing styles than Chrono and he is usually uncomfortable with that kind of style unless he knows that dog very well.

For the most part Chrono usually plays with just one dog because they have matching play styles.


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## misterW

There seems to be some confusion as to why I would like my shepherd and the pitbull to meet in the first place. The primary reason is simply because my friend and I will be in the same location at times, and we both enjoy having our dogs with us. So, if they merely tolerated each other, that would be great. 

If they liked each other, that would be great -- one more dog for her to play with. 

This is not a case of insisting that an unsocial dog have "friends." My dog already has several dogs that she plays with -- one of them is on its way over right now, as a matter of fact. So it's not that she NEEDS to find a friend; I'd just rather not have to leave her every time I go visit my friend.


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## kiya

misterW said:


> So, if they merely tolerated each other, that would be great.
> 
> If they liked each other, that would be great -- one more dog for her to play with.


I think if you just started off slowly introducing them by walks and such there should be no reason why everyone couldn't hang out together. Letting dogs play ruff can lead to problems with any dog. As long as all the dogs have manors and are social theres no reason to just turn them loose together. You should know right away if they can hang out together.


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## chelle

Frankly I'm Frank said:


> My dog enjoys playing with other dogs and does so on a regular basis. That does not change the fact that, for him, the sun rises and sets on my say so. I am everything to him but that doesn't keep him from having a good time with his dog friends. I can call him away at any time and he happily comes with me.


:thumbup: That is too logical, Frank. That doesn't work on a topic such as this. I am totally dumbfounded as to why it bothers so many people that some people let their dogs play *GASP!* with -- oh no -- OTHER DOGS. Or, that, *GASP!* the dog _likes _it and the dog still -- wait for it -- totally adores and loves his owner!

The rudeness and outright snarky judgementalism on this one issue absolutely astounds me. And disgusts me in all honesty.


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## martemchik

What I got from the OP is that his only worry is that the other dog is a pitbull. He has some preconceived notions of what a pitbull is and be they right or wrong he is worried that the pitbull would hurt his dog if they were to meet and not like each other. The only thing I have to say to the OP is that there is the same worry with meeting a pitbull as there is anyother dog. Your GSD actually has a stronger bite than the pitbull, and can do just as much if not more damage than that dog can. If you can get over your prejudices of pitbulls, and calmly introduce them, you should be fine. The only thing I have seen is that your dog has had some issues meeting dogs initially, and she would be the catalyst of any problems not the pitbull.

If you are nervous when they are introduced, she will pick up on your energy and get the way she did with the mastiff. She will get nervous and react. If you stay calm, and not worry then you shouldn't have an issue. Take the advice of other people with the walks/introduction to make it easier, but really focus on not being nervous yourself.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

Simple answer to question of post title: NO


----------



## DJEtzel

misterW said:


> For example, the pit in question (as far as I know) has never had problems with other dogs and is quite friendly to people. But I do know that when he gets excited he has locked his jaws around things (like a hanging rope) and apparently refused to let go for considerable periods of time, despite (second hand report) his gums actually bleeding from the exertion


Pit Bulls do not lock their jaws. Complete myth. They do have an extremely large pain tolerance, and do have a lot of drive being a large terrier. My soon to be roommate and best friend has an almost year old pit bull who you can pick up by a rope and fling around(and she loves it). Doesn't have ANYTHING to do with her play style or aggression- she has none. My dogs push her and push her in play and behavior (which I only let them do TO test her since she will be living here) and she is solid. She is soft to handler correction, but she will not have a problem with our dogs here. 

Anyway. Just wanted to make sure you realized that. 

Also, on the topic of how well our GSDs play with terriers, I figured I'd add in my dog's style as well. I have let him play with one male Shepherd before, and it didn't go so hot as he aged, he doesn't do as well with most herding breeds and we tend to avoid them- male or female, old or young. However, he LOVES playing with pit bulls. I have brought some home from my ex kennel job for him to play with, and we've met some at the dog park where I work, and my friend has one. He probably plays the greatest with pit bulls than any other breed, because they play rough typically and he loves it and they can wrassle.


----------



## misterW

martemchik said:


> What I got from the OP is that his only worry is that the other dog is a pitbull. He has some preconceived notions of what a pitbull is and be they right or wrong he is worried that the pitbull would hurt his dog if they were to meet and not like each other. The only thing I have to say to the OP is that there is the same worry with meeting a pitbull as there is anyother dog. Your GSD actually has a stronger bite than the pitbull, and can do just as much if not more damage than that dog can.


I have heard people voice that opinion before, and it simply makes no sense to me. Look at the musculature on the head of a pitbull. Compare that to other dogs. It's like saying bodybuilders don't bench press any more weight than the average person. If there is something wrong with that analogy, I'm open to being convinced, but I haven't heard anyone explain it yet. 

Plus, I have the empirical evidence of seeing a pitbull do things to a sapling that I didn't even think were possible. I've never seen my dog or any other dog do anything like that. 


> The only thing I have seen is that your dog has had some issues meeting dogs initially, and she would be the catalyst of any problems not the pitbull.


 Right, that is my concern. She puts on a little show of aggression, and then he finishes the job. 



> If you are nervous when they are introduced, she will pick up on your energy and get the way she did with the mastiff. She will get nervous and react. If you stay calm, and not worry then you shouldn't have an issue. Take the advice of other people with the walks/introduction to make it easier, but really focus on not being nervous yourself.


I agree with the walking intro. I don't think nervousness played a role w/ the mastiff though. I think it was more the way he approached quickly and unexpectedly with none of the circling, sniffing signals that dogs often use.


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## Razzle J.Dazzle

Maris (4theDawgies) has a pitbull that I was 100% comfortable having Razzle around. I'm sure she'll find this thread and give her own opinion, but I believe it's more a "Do you trust the owner of the pitbull?" question.


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## misterW

DJEtzel said:


> Pit Bulls do not lock their jaws. Complete myth. They do have an extremely large pain tolerance, and do have a lot of drive being a large terrier.


Well, what do you mean by "lock" their jaws? I had no thoughts on this subject until recently when the owner of the pit bull in question described how his dog leapt for a rope swing, clenched it in his jaws, and would not let go. And they couldn't get the dog to let go. His gums bled, they threw water in his face (they were by a river), the dog held on for over an hour. He held on until the owner choked the dog until he let go (please note: I am not advocating his approach to getting his dog to release). Maybe the guy was exaggerating, but that was the owner who told me this. 

Now, that behavior may have nothing to do with the dog's aggression, but that story certainly made me rethink things.


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## chelle

MisterW, I think someone said it earlier -- can YOU be comfortable with it? If not, I wouldn't even try. If you can be comfortable by them both being leashed up, so you have more control, try that. Do you really trust the owner of the pittie, that it was well raised, socialized, doesn't have dog aggression history, etc and so on. Has the pittie owner had him awhile -- ie, the dog isn't a new dog to the owner, so history isn't truly known? I guess I'd take in all those things. The owner should be the best source of info as to what they think the pit's reaction (or lack of) might be if your girl is a snot upon meeting.

You won't get a pit owner to say their breed is any more dangerous than any other breed. Just won't happen.


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## 4TheDawgies

Mrs.K said:


> Yes... I think it's the "surrogate" child effect. Just like Kids have to have play dates, people think doggies have to have them too.


EXACTLY 



GSDBESTK9 said:


> :rofl: This is the mentality us, Schutzhund People have, but most pet owners think their dogs HAVE to have doggie friends and playdates. Then they complaint/ask why their dogs are more interested in playing and interacting with other dogs than with them.
> 
> The only dogs our dogs play with and on a very limited basis is our other dogs. We may allow a very young puppy to interact with another young puppy (of the same age) but not for very long.
> 
> We as handlers/trainers/owners should be the center of their attention and they should want to be with us more than with another dog. Having doggie friends and playdates is not going to accomplish that.  But like I said, pet people feel different, their relationship are some what different.



I feel the same way


----------



## doggiedad

you knowing the dog doesn't determine how the dogs will
react when they're around each other.



kiya said:


> I hate to admit there have been pits around when we've been out & about, I steared clear, but I did not know them.
> Some pits are very sweet,
> 
> >>>> I'd rather get to know the dog without my dog then make a decission.<<<<


----------



## DJEtzel

misterW said:


> Well, what do you mean by "lock" their jaws? I had no thoughts on this subject until recently when the owner of the pit bull in question described how his dog leapt for a rope swing, clenched it in his jaws, and would not let go. And they couldn't get the dog to let go. His gums bled, they threw water in his face (they were by a river), the dog held on for over an hour. He held on until the owner choked the dog until he let go (please note: I am not advocating his approach to getting his dog to release). Maybe the guy was exaggerating, but that was the owner who told me this.
> 
> Now, that behavior may have nothing to do with the dog's aggression, but that story certainly made me rethink things.


There is a common myth that because of the Pit Bull's jaw structure, that they can "lock" their jaws on anything and don't let go. But that is incorrect. Pit type dogs, mastiffs, etc. are considered mollosers because of the jaw structure that they have and the way that they use it. These dogs will typically bite something once and hold onto it and shake, rather than "snapping" like a GSD or Doberman will do; drawing more blood and creating more wounds. That is why it appears that you cannot pry open a pit bulls jaws and that bite sticks have to be used sometimes. In the case of your friend with his dog and the rope- that is poor training. The dog is probably a poorly bred unstable or nervey dog if he cannot be taught to drop a high value item and has to be hurt to get it to let go. A dog displaying these traits of ANY breed would NEVER have the opportunity to meet or play with my dogs, personally. But... that's just me. 



chelle said:


> You won't get a pit owner to say their breed is any more dangerous than any other breed. Just won't happen.


Why does it need to happen? Who's to say what level of dangerous anything is? The Pit Bull is not any more inherantly dangerous in general than any other breed, except in the aspect of dog aggression, because that is what they were bred for. There are MANY more dogs of other breeds out there that are more dangerous than many specific pit bulls. Any dog can be just as dangerous as the next because they ALL can bite.


----------



## DJEtzel

doggiedad said:


> you knowing the dog doesn't determine how the dogs will
> react when they're around each other.


While that is true, you can get a great feel for the dog to see if it's the type of dog you want to be around at all. If it is nervous, neurotic, poorly trained, too soft, too hard, nervey, etc. you may not want to put your dog in such company. These are all things I look for in dogs before determining if my dog will play well with it, especially when bringing in foster dogs. I don't want to take any chances.


----------



## GatorDog

chelle said:


> You won't get a pit owner to say their breed is any more dangerous than any other breed. Just won't happen.


Your ignorance on this topic really astounds me.


----------



## onyx'girl

DJEtzel said:


> While that is true, you can get a great feel for the dog to see if it's the type of dog you want to be around at all. If it is nervous, neurotic, poorly trained, too soft, too hard, nervey, etc. you may not want to put your dog in such company. These are all things I look for in dogs before determining if my dog will play well with it, especially when bringing in foster dogs. I don't want to take any chances.


I think this opinion coming from someone who worked at a rescue kennel with several different breeds/mixes says alot. You can't judge a dog by its breed!
I was a little nervous when I did Karlo's BH with a Presa as the dog doing the long down. I judged him by his breed, but after seeing his personality...no worries.


----------



## Lesley1905

DJEtzel said:


> There is a common myth that because of the Pit Bull's jaw structure, that they can "lock" their jaws on anything and don't let go. But that is incorrect. Pit type dogs, mastiffs, etc. are considered mollosers because of the jaw structure that they have and the way that they use it. These dogs will typically bite something once and hold onto it and shake, rather than "snapping" like a GSD or Doberman will do; drawing more blood and creating more wounds. That is why it appears that you cannot pry open a pit bulls jaws and that bite sticks have to be used sometimes. In the case of your friend with his dog and the rope- that is poor training. The dog is probably a poorly bred unstable or nervey dog if he cannot be taught to drop a high value item and has to be hurt to get it to let go. A dog displaying these traits of ANY breed would NEVER have the opportunity to meet or play with my dogs, personally. But... that's just me.
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it need to happen? Who's to say what level of dangerous anything is? The Pit Bull is not any more inherantly dangerous in general than any other breed, except in the aspect of dog aggression, because that is what they were bred for. There are MANY more dogs of other breeds out there that are more dangerous than many specific pit bulls. Any dog can be just as dangerous as the next because they ALL can bite.


 
You took the words right out of my mouth  ^^^^^ 

It's just so frustrating that society still has to have these conversations about pitbulls. People really just need to get their minds out of the gutter. 
Although, I dont always agree with his training, but I always go by this quote:

*"My kids are around pit bulls every day. In the '70s they blamed Dobermans, in the '80s they blamed German Shepherds, in the '90s they blamed Rottweilers. Now they blame the Pit Bull." *
*- Cesar Millan (The Dog Whisperer)*

*Which breed is going to be next???? *


----------



## chelle

GSDBESTK9 said:


> :rofl: This is the mentality us, Schutzhund People have, but most pet owners think their dogs HAVE to have doggie friends and playdates. *Then they complaint/ask why their dogs are more interested in playing and interacting with other dogs than with them*.


Funny, , I can't recall a single time someone complained/asked that question. 

As for the "most pet owners" crap... Don't lump me and everyone else into a generalism. That would be like me saying all you "Schutzhund People" come off as snobs and know-it-alls. 

"Pet owners" are not lesser people, not inferior people. We just either don't have Schutzhund-capable dogs and/or have no interest in that sport.


----------



## chelle

GatorDog said:


> Your ignorance on this topic really astounds me.


That comment sure did a lot to further the topic.


----------



## onyx'girl

> This is the mentality us, Schutzhund People have, but most pet owners think their dogs HAVE to have doggie friends and playdates. Then they complaint/ask why their dogs are more interested in playing and interacting with other dogs than with them.





> Funny, , I can't recall a single time someone complained/asked that question.
> 
> As for the "most pet owners" crap... Don't lump me and everyone else into a generalism. That would be like me saying all you "Schutzhund People" come off as snobs and know-it-alls.
> 
> "Pet owners" are not lesser people, not inferior people. We just either don't have Schutzhund-capable dogs and/or have no interest in that sport.


When you do train in SchH the dog knows from the getgo, during training other dogs or even people are _not_ playmates. It is just how it is, and mostly it is a lifestyle. 
And many times, we hear that companion obedience people do wonder why their dogs won't give them focus. It is instilled early on.


----------



## Lesley1905

onyx'girl said:


> I think this opinion coming from someone who worked at a rescue kennel with several different breeds/mixes says alot. You can't judge a dog by its breed!
> I was a little nervous when I did Karlo's BH with a Presa as the dog doing the long down. I judged him by his breed, but after seeing his personality...no worries.


I was the same way a long time ago. I was terrified of certain breeds. After working at a vet clinic for a while, I realized it really just depends on the dog itself. I will say...when a crazy cat comes in, I'll be the first one to ask for help  They scare the poop out of me!! My boss tells me she finds it hysterical that I will put a muzzle on a little dog or even a cat, but I'll lay my whole body over a doberman, rotti, pitbull, etc while taking an xray


----------



## GatorDog

chelle said:


> That comment sure did a lot to further the topic.


I'm having a hard time deciding on if you say ignorant things to cause a disruption in a discussion or because you truly believe your own statements. Where is your evidence in that statement? You have opinions based on your own experiences with irresponsible dog owners and are now spewing out offensive comments at will. Really ridiculous. 

As to your last comment, I have one Schutzhund capable dog, a Beagle (clearly not involved in Schutzhund) and a Pit Bull (GASP- RUN, RUN AWAY!). The latter two are simple HOUSE PETS, Who do not go to the dog park because of unsupervised interaction that causes the aggression related fights that you keep speaking of. So what category would you lump me into?


----------



## chelle

DJEtzel said:


> Why does it need to happen? Who's to say what level of dangerous anything is? The Pit Bull is not any more inherantly dangerous in general than any other breed, *except in the aspect of dog aggression, because that is what they were bred for.* There are MANY more dogs of other breeds out there that are more dangerous than many specific pit bulls. Any dog can be just as dangerous as the next because they ALL can bite.


It doesn't "need" to happen. Just that the OP was inquiring about whether his girl should play with a Pit and seemed to want reassurance it would be okay. 

The bolded above is the closest I've ever heard from an apparently pit-knowledgable person admit there might possibly be an issue to be aware of. 

Sure, many dangerous breeds out there, most certainly. 

Only disagreement is the last (underlined) sentence. I'm not too concerned about a Chihuahua.. or a MinPin... or comparable dog attacking my dog. They may certainly bite him or me, but he won't kill he or I.

I've learned on this forum that you are simply not allowed to say anything negative in the slightest about a pit. I find this a little odd, because people sure do discuss the negatives of GSD's... 

I won't be believed, but I don't intrinsically hate any breed. There are some I don't care for. A pit is a dog I am leery of and there are several other breeds in that category to me.

But, then again, as I was told, I'm too ignorant to have a useful opinion.


----------



## misterW

DJEtzel said:


> There is a common myth that because of the Pit Bull's jaw structure, that they can "lock" their jaws on anything and don't let go. But that is incorrect. Pit type dogs, mastiffs, etc. are considered mollosers because of the jaw structure that they have and the way that they use it. These dogs will typically bite something once and hold onto it and shake, rather than "snapping" like a GSD or Doberman will do; drawing more blood and creating more wounds. That is why it appears that you cannot pry open a pit bulls jaws and that bite sticks have to be used sometimes. In the case of your friend with his dog and the rope- that is poor training. The dog is probably a poorly bred unstable or nervey dog if he cannot be taught to drop a high value item and has to be hurt to get it to let go. A dog displaying these traits of ANY breed would NEVER have the opportunity to meet or play with my dogs, personally. But... that's just me.


Sure, that makes sense. That being said, whether they "lock" their jaws due to a unique jaw structure (myth) or due to just hanging on tenaciously (true), the effect is much the same -- a dog with its jaws clamped shut that won't open them. 

I'm sure the dog IS poorly bred and minimally trained. But then, that is probably the case with the majority of dogs. 


> The Pit Bull is not any more inherantly dangerous in general than any other breed, except in the aspect of dog aggression, because that is what they were bred for.


And this is the characteristic of theirs that is pertinent to the discussion. I would never claim a pitbull to be more aggresssive towards people. 



> Any dog can be just as dangerous as the next because they ALL can bite.


I don't see how this follows. If a chijuajua gets pissed at my dog, I'm not worried. If a retriever snaps at her, I'm not worried. If a dog bulging with muscles that has a tendency to clamp its jaws around things and not let go gets pissed at her, I'm worried.


----------



## GatorDog

chelle said:


> But, then again, as I was told, I'm too ignorant to have a useful opinion.


No one said you were too ignorant for an opinion, but it would help if you would use some respect for those owners of the breed before you went on passing judgement about what we will or will not tell others about how "dangerous" my dog is, or if you had some general knowledge of the breed to back yourself up.


----------



## chelle

GatorDog said:


> I'm having a hard time deciding on if you say ignorant things to cause a disruption in a discussion or because you truly believe your own statements. Where is your evidence in that statement? You have opinions based on your own experiences with irresponsible dog owners and are now spewing out offensive comments at will. Really ridiculous.
> 
> As to your last comment, I have one Schutzhund capable dog, a Beagle (clearly not involved in Schutzhund) and a Pit Bull (GASP- RUN, RUN AWAY!). The latter two are simple HOUSE PETS, Who do not go to the dog park because of unsupervised interaction that causes the aggression related fights that you keep speaking of. So what category would you lump me into?


Really? What was your dumb little drive by statement intended to do, then? Be constructive? Pot and kettle.

The evidence in my statement? The time I've spent here.

"Spewing out offensive comments at will." ??? I made a one-sentence comment. Wow, that's spewing all right. You should see me when I'm really going good. Mt St Helen's, watch out.

What category to lump you into? What are my category choices?


----------



## Lesley1905

misterW said:


> Sure, that makes sense. That being said, whether they "lock" their jaws due to a unique jaw structure (myth) or due to just hanging on tenaciously (true), the effect is much the same -- a dog with its jaws clamped shut that won't open them.
> 
> I'm sure the dog IS poorly bred and minimally trained. But then, that is probably the case with the majority of dogs.
> 
> And this is the characteristic of theirs that is pertinent to the discussion. I would never claim a pitbull to be more aggresssive towards people.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how this follows. If a chijuajua gets pissed at my dog, I'm not worried. If a retriever snaps at her, I'm not worried. If a dog bulging with muscles that has a tendency to clamp its jaws around things and not let go gets pissed at her, I'm worried.


It doesnt depend on the type of dog. What if that chihuaha gets pissed at your dog which sends your dog into a frenzy??? And yes, a retriever can do damage. Any dog is capable of damage. My pitbull, would run from your dog, I will lay a 1000bucks on it. She runs away from my Cavalier!


----------



## misterW

onyx'girl said:


> You can't judge a dog by its breed!


Not with absolute certainty, sure. But if you don't think certain breeds have certain tendencies, then you are essentially saying that selective breeding doesn't work. Is that your position? 

Are you saying labs and retrievers (in general) don't have a natural tendency to fetch things? That herding breeds (in general) don't have a tendency to nip and herd?


----------



## GatorDog

chelle said:


> Really? What was your dumb little drive by statement intended to do, then? Be constructive? Pot and kettle.
> 
> The evidence in my statement? The time I've spent here.
> 
> "Spewing out offensive comments at will." ??? I made a one-sentence comment. Wow, that's spewing all right. You should see me when I'm really going good. Mt St Helen's, watch out.
> 
> What category to lump you into? What are my category choices?



You stated earlier on this thread that you realized that negative things about pits aren't "allowed to be spoken of" on this forum. If this is true, then how would your time spent on here give you evidence towards your statement?

You also stated a few other rude comments towards the owners of pit bulls on another thread on this forum. I'd call that spewing.


----------



## chelle

onyx'girl said:


> When you do train in SchH the dog knows from the getgo, during training other dogs or even people are _not_ playmates. It is just how it is, and mostly it is a lifestyle.
> And many times, we hear that companion obedience people do wonder why their dogs won't give them focus. It is instilled early on.


I can understand this if it is going to further your long-term goals of higher end training. (To not allow many/any playmates, to keep the focus.)

But for those who don't have these intentions, it is insulting to be told some things we are regarding the supposedly detrimental nature of allowing dog-play. I would think, if a "pet" owner does not intend to reach those high ends of training, that ensuring / allowing positive interactions only builds a more stable "pet" dog.

Just my humble and admittedly novice opinion. I appreciate you posting the way you did - a nice explanation without being condescending.


----------



## Lesley1905

I think she is saying that you can't "profile" a dog. Just because a dog is a pitbull, does not mean its going to jump out and attack you or your dog. Just because a lab is a retriever, doesnt mean its going to retrieve. Certain people dislike German Shepherds..why? Because they think alot of them are mean because they watch them on COPS as k9 dogs or only know of them as police k9 dogs. That's all some people see when it comes to German Shepherds.


----------



## misterW

Lesley1905 said:


> It doesnt depend on the type of dog. What if that chihuaha gets pissed at your dog which sends your dog into a frenzy??? And yes, a retriever can do damage. Any dog is capable of damage. My pitbull, would run from your dog, I will lay a 1000bucks on it. She runs away from my Cavalier!


How does a Chijuajua pissing off my dog hurt her? 

Sure, a retriever could do damage. But I wouldn't be as concerned about her pissing off a retriever as I would a massively muscled pitbull. I mean, come on now, would you be more worried about pissing off Mike Tyson (in his prime, of course) or Michael Jackson (living, of course)? 

I don't doubt you about your dog; I'm not discounting the impact of individual differences.


----------



## chelle

GatorDog said:


> You stated earlier on this thread that you realized that negative things about pits aren't "allowed to be spoken of" on this forum. If this is true, then how would your time spent on here give you evidence towards your statement?
> 
> You also stated a few other rude comments towards the owners of pit bulls on another thread on this forum. I'd call that spewing.


If you would like to quote me, do it accurately. What I said was: _"You won't get a pit owner to say their breed is any more dangerous than any other breed. Just won't happen." _ 

If you wish to "quote" me, then get it right.

My time here has shown me that ANYTIME you say ANYTHING remotely negative in ANY WAY about a pit bull, you will be attacked.

As I am now.

Please (accurately) quote the "rude comments" I've made on other posts towards pit owners.


----------



## GatorDog

It's called racism when people profile other people based on race, and it's the same way with dog breeds. I'm just so sick of people telling me that I "don't know" or "won't admit" to the fact that my pit is dangerous. I know exactly what she is capable of. And I know that my intact male GSD who is nearly twice her size/weight can do equal if not more damage. My GSD would think twice before interacting with any strange person or dog, and would definitely be the first to react in a bad situation, whereas my pit, Penny, approaches every situation without a care in the world. 

I know dogs and they are ALL dangerous. They all have teeth and a mind of their own. Every last one of them.


----------



## onyx'girl

BSL....which is a very scary thing. Labs can bite without provocation, I had a Basset size me up while growling, no doubt he'd bite if I provoked him. Shoot, I got nipped in the butt by a Briard when I was going up the stairs of his home. I clean houses so am an intruder if the dog isn't familiar with me/this one knew me, but his eyes were covered by all his hair...must be his nose wasn't 'on' that day.
I don't judge a dog by the breed, but will surely watch body language and attitude.


----------



## misterW

Lesley1905 said:


> I think she is saying that you can't "profile" a dog. Just because a dog is a pitbull, does not mean its going to jump out and attack you or your dog. Just because a lab is a retriever, doesnt mean its going to retrieve. Certain people dislike German Shepherds..why? Because they think alot of them are mean because they watch them on COPS as k9 dogs or only know of them as police k9 dogs. That's all some people see when it comes to German Shepherds.


I agree you can't profile with absolute certainty. But it does help to play the odds in making predictions. I agree it would be foolish to claim that 100% of retrievers fetch and 100% of pitbulls get into fights and 100% of rat terriers like to chase little furry creatures and so on. I think it is also foolish to insist that all breeds are equal and that years and years of selective breeding has had zero impact on the dog's brain -- despite the obvious changes that selective breeding has created in the rest of the body.


----------



## GatorDog

chelle said:


> If you would like to quote me, do it accurately. What I said was: _"You won't get a pit owner to say their breed is any more dangerous than any other breed. Just won't happen."
> _


_

Here ya go : My pit bull is EQUALLY as dangerous as my GSD. Happy? 
My GSD is trained to hold his grip when he bites. Would you be as leery of him? He's twice the size of my 48lb, spayed female, and she hasn't bitten a thing in her entire life. She is no more dangerous than any other dog, and I will not say that she is. Guess that makes me another idiot pit owner, huh._


----------



## DJEtzel

misterW said:


> Not with absolute certainty, sure. But if you don't think certain breeds have certain tendencies, then you are essentially saying that selective breeding doesn't work. Is that your position?
> 
> Are you saying labs and retrievers (in general) don't have a natural tendency to fetch things? That herding breeds (in general) don't have a tendency to nip and herd?


It doesn't matter if the breed as a whole has a tendency or not. NOT every dog is going to. My shepherd won't herd or nip. Tons here are super friendly. Can't be worried about the breed until you assess what you need to of the specific dog. I know DOZENS of dog aggressive dogs, and I know of a handful dog aggressive pit bulls. Only way to find out is to dog-test them, not assume they're going to be aggressive. 



chelle said:


> The bolded above is the closest I've ever heard from an apparently pit-knowledgable person admit there might possibly be an issue to be aware of.
> 
> Sure, many dangerous breeds out there, most certainly.


You've been living under a rock then. You need to meet REAL, RESPONSIBLE pit owners and advocates then, because you've been jaded by poorly knowledged owners. It's no surprise to any of us that pit bulls were bred to kill dogs and some may be genetically dog aggressive. Any breed can be dog aggressive though, JUST as tenaciously and ruthlessly, so it does not matter. ANY strange dog I meet with my dogs I have to worry about being dog aggresive. Truth is, I've met probably 10x more dog aggressive NON- pit bulls, than I have DA Pit Bulls. They may have their issues, but there are more of all of the other breeds as a whole than there are pit bulls to worry about.



> Only disagreement is the last (underlined) sentence. I'm not too concerned about a Chihuahua.. or a MinPin... or comparable dog attacking my dog. They may certainly bite him or me, but he won't kill he or I.
> 
> I've learned on this forum that you are simply not allowed to say anything negative in the slightest about a pit. I find this a little odd, because people sure do discuss the negatives of GSD's...


You don't think so? You don't think a singular bite to the jugular vein on your dog by a min pin could kill him? You don't think a deep, purposeful bite on your finger could result in you losing it? It's all the same danger to me. And I'm more afraid of human aggression of sorts in any dog under 20 lbs than I am of larger dogs of ANY breed.

And you can say "negative" things about pit bulls all you want, but they have to be accurate. You get attacked because you are following misconceptions and argueing them to people who know otherwise. You have no knowledge or basis to back up your pit arguements.


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## GatorDog

chelle said:


> Please (accurately) quote the "rude comments" I've made on other posts towards pit owners.


 Stated last night : "Go down to the poorest sections of town and what's sitting on the porches? Pits. Usually owned by a 20 year old tough dude with a spike collar to match his bad-ass dog."

Your close-minded thinking is what is getting you attacked. Your stereotypes are often offensive.


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## DJEtzel

GatorDog said:


> Stated last night : "Go down to the poorest sections of town and what's sitting on the porches? Pits. Usually owned by a 20 year old tough dude with a spike collar to match his bad-ass dog."
> 
> Your close-minded thinking is what is getting you attacked. Your stereotypes are often offensive.


:thumbup:


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## chelle

GatorDog said:


> It's called racism when people profile other people based on race, and it's the same way with dog breeds. *I'm just so sick of people telling me that I "don't know" or "won't admit"* to the fact that my pit is dangerous. I know exactly what she is capable of.....


Ok so the truth comes out. 

As a pit owner, you know darned well how many people out there purposefully have these dogs for fighting. You know that! How can you deny that? It's just a reality! And they breed FOR that trait. 

I apparently struck a nerve. I stated earlier in this post that the OP should learn more about the dog via the owner, WHO KNOWS THE DOG BEST. A good owner knows his dog. A good owner, who had any doubt about his dog's reaction to the OP's dog, wouldn't allow them to meet. 

You say you know exactly what your dog is capable of and I trust and believe that. But you cannot, for one minute, claim that every pit owner honestly knows that. Many don't. Unfortunately, your much loved breed has been *ruined* in many areas by those that purposefully breed to make a stronger, tougher dog to fight harder and longer. Such dogs are very dangerous. Poorly bred and encouraged to fight. I never said that was *your* dog or anyone on this forum's dog. 

Don't take things so personally. It isn't about your dog.


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## chelle

GatorDog said:


> Stated last night : "Go down to the poorest sections of town and what's sitting on the porches? Pits. Usually owned by a 20 year old tough dude with a spike collar to match his bad-ass dog."
> 
> Your close-minded thinking is what is getting you attacked. Your stereotypes are often offensive.


I'll stand behind this. It is true.


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## GatorDog

chelle said:


> I'll stand behind this. It is true.


You'd be super shocked to see my pit and myself, then.


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## gsdraven

*Alright. Stop the bickering back and forth, NOW. Continued bickering will result in warnings being issued.*

*Jamie*
*Moderator*


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## GatorDog

chelle said:


> Don't take things so personally. It isn't about your dog.


Your generalizations _make_ it about our dogs.


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## GatorDog

gsdraven said:


> *Alright. Stop the bickering back and forth, NOW. Continued bickering will result in warnings being issued.*
> 
> *Jamie*
> *Moderator*


My apologies. Posted mine before seeing this post.


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## chelle

I will respond with this last one - and make it respectful and to the point.



DJEtzel said:


> You've been living under a rock then. You need to meet REAL, RESPONSIBLE pit owners and advocates then, because you've been jaded by poorly knowledged owners. ....... And you can say "negative" things about pit bulls all you want, but they have to be accurate. You get attacked because you are following misconceptions and argueing them to people who know otherwise. You have no knowledge or basis to back up your pit arguements.


I would enjoy living under a rock. It would be warm there. However, I can't do that. That pesky activity called work makes me crawl out from time to time.

Sadly, the only pit exposure I've had has been bad. (Minus one very sweet girl my dog played with and I look forward to seeing her at the park.) But, the sad truth is this breed is very overbred in my area with specific intentions to make them fighters. 

I honestly do not know what "negative" things I've said. Please PM me if you want to get to the heart of that, because I am being sincere in saying that I do NOT know what negative thing I've said.

I won't address the other issues in your post, as I'm trying to be brief.



GatorDog said:


> You'd be super shocked to see my pit and myself, then.


No, I would be very pleased. I sincerely wish every pit owner took the care and dedication that you apparently do. Sadly, that just is not the case.


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## misterW

DJEtzel said:


> It doesn't matter if the breed as a whole has a tendency or not. NOT every dog is going to.


I have said many times that I COMPLETELY agree that a breed tendency doesn't mean every dog is like that. 

But knowing any kind of general tendencies matters in terms of playing the odds.

If you were about to enter a ping pong tournament (with a 1,000,000$ prize), and had to choose your doubles partner, and you had to choose between an unknown Canadian* guy and an unknown Chinese* guy, who would you choose? 
What if you were in a Hockey tournament? 

I suspect we all would make the same choice, even though none of us is so stupid as to think that every chinese person is great at ping pong and every canadian is good at hockey. 

Please note: I chose activities where skill is obviously a result of cultural popularity and not innate genetic predisposition, so don't think I'm being racist here! : )


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## Lauri & The Gang

Keep it civil, no personal insults or this thread will be closed and people will get warnings.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Chelle, it doesn't matter if your face was ripped off tomorrow by a well bred pit with rich caring owners.... 

The pit cult following would 

1) deny it was a pit. No one in America can identify a pit
2) it would be your fault for the bite. YOU antagonized it by being in the room with it
3) claim it was from a backyard breeder
4) say the owners abused it...

No matter what, a pit can't hurt a human. They only attack ther dogs.

Now that is ignorance!!

My stepdad has at least one pitbull case a month... And beliee me, we can identify a pitbull. By law, it is any apbt, bull dog, stafforshire terrier or mix with those. We live in a city where the cheapest home is aroun 200000 dollars...
All lawyers and doctors and good people who treat their dogs well.

A pit killed a lab at the dog park a few months ago... Thank god they are now banned.

My dog has been attacked by on leash and off leash pits three times in six months. I have mace now and will spray any pit off leash that comes near us.

This is a German shepherd board... I wish the dumb pit debate could be left to the cult following pit bull forums. 

Deny deny deny....won't help bsl. All pits should be muzzled in public unless they pass some kind of aggression test... Oh wait... They kill their owners more than strangers so tht won't help.

Any dog can bite... Certain breeds are known for it.

Ps: my dogs best friend was a pure bred pitbull. But one day its owners told me "it only attacks dominant dogs". They have had to hit it over the head to release a dog from its jaws at the dog park. And before you claim it was ill bred and not trained, it had its cgc and was from a reputable
Breeder. Unfortunately they no longer play bc it's a risk I'm not willing to take.


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## GatorDog

Very contradictory statement. If you wanted the "dumb pit debate" to end, then you probably shouldn't have posted.

I wish this thread could have been closed now so that I didn't have to read that last comment.


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## 4TheDawgies

Razzle J.Dazzle said:


> Maris (4theDawgies) has a pitbull that I was 100% comfortable having Razzle around. I'm sure she'll find this thread and give her own opinion, but I believe it's more a "Do you trust the owner of the pitbull?" question.



LOL oh no don't lie to them! 

I'm harboring a real beast here guys.

please look away if you can't handle graphic images!




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curled up in my lap with a 6 year old...


no personality, all she wants to do is eat you alive.


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## Jessiewessie99

4TheDawgies said:


> LOL oh no don't lie to them!
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Your dogs are beautiful!! What is she being trained in? The costume pic is just hilarious!! I am very afraid!!LOL


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## GatorDog

RUN, RUN AWAY FAST! EVIL PIT BULL ON THE LOOSE!


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## GregK

Back to the original question; it totally depends on the dog, not the breed. I'm not going to let my mastiff play with a Chihuahua if all he's going to do is clamp onto my boys giblets and growl!


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## 4TheDawgies

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Your dogs are beautiful!! What is she being trained in? The costume pic is just hilarious!! I am very afraid!!LOL


Thank you!


Thats Nina CGC, TT, TDI, BH

Thats a 
Canine Good Citizen
Temperament tested
Therapy Dog International
Begleithund

I rescued her when she was around 8 months. She is training in Schutzhund. Quite the dangerous dog no? 












Nina bred to never quit - YouTube

Clearly this dog is highly dangerous to society and needs to wear a muzzle in public. 

I know what my dog is capable of. I watch her do it on the Schutzhund field. Then I watch her come home and nanny children, play with puppies, and chew on a bone by my feet.

Her danger is equal to that of any other dog her size with teeth and claws. To say its any more than that is quite simply ignorance at its finest.


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## chelle

Your pictures are wonderful. I don't understand why you feel the need for the high level of sarcasm with the comments about "harboring a real beast, an evil dog, dangerous to society" and so forth. You actually set your agenda *back* with that sort of thing. You lose your credibility very quickly. You simply come off as over the top defensive. You leave many people with far less respect than you started with.

No one ever attacked your dog, specifically, although you responded as though they did. 

I'll once again stand by my statement that no one is allowed to say anything negative about a Pit. YOU owners who have gotten yourselves so worked up and to attack, are a condindrum. You're likely the most responsible representation of the owners of the breed, but you're so defensive, you do your breed a *major disservice.*

Be snarky, be cute, whatever you wish to be and do.. but this type of thing does absolutely nothing to help those of us with bad associations to feel differently.


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## 4TheDawgies

chelle said:


> Your pictures are wonderful. I don't understand why you feel the need for the high level of sarcasm with the comments about "harboring a real beast, an evil dog, dangerous to society" and so forth. You actually set your agenda *back* with that sort of thing. You lose your credibility very quickly. You simply come off as over the top defensive. You leave many people with far less respect than you started with.
> 
> No one ever attacked your dog, specifically, although you responded as though they did.
> 
> I'll once again stand by my statement that no one is allowed to say anything negative about a Pit. YOU owners who have gotten yourselves so worked up and to attack, are a condindrum. You're likely the most responsible representation of the owners of the breed, but you're so defensive, you do your breed a *major disservice.*
> 
> Be snarky, be cute, whatever you wish to be and do.. but this type of thing does absolutely nothing to help those of us with bad associations to feel differently.


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## Jessiewessie99

4TheDawgies said:


> Thank you!
> 
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> Thats Nina CGC, TT, TDI, BH
> 
> Thats a
> Canine Good Citizen
> Temperament tested
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> 
> Her danger is equal to that of any other dog her size with teeth and claws. To say its any more than that is quite simply ignorance at its finest.


Amazing!!Keep doing what you are doing!! All your dogs are beautiful!!


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## 4TheDawgies

chelle said:


> Your pictures are wonderful. I don't understand why you feel the need for the high level of sarcasm with the comments about "harboring a real beast, an evil dog, dangerous to society" and so forth. You actually set your agenda *back* with that sort of thing. You lose your credibility very quickly. You simply come off as over the top defensive. You leave many people with far less respect than you started with.
> 
> No one ever attacked your dog, specifically, although you responded as though they did.
> 
> I'll once again stand by my statement that no one is allowed to say anything negative about a Pit. YOU owners who have gotten yourselves so worked up and to attack, are a condindrum. You're likely the most responsible representation of the owners of the breed, but you're so defensive, you do your breed a *major disservice.*
> 
> Be snarky, be cute, whatever you wish to be and do.. but this type of thing does absolutely nothing to help those of us with bad associations to feel differently.



Chelle I greatly appreciate your critique of my behavior. 

I have no problems when someone talks poorly about a pitbull that deserves it. There ARE dogs of every breed that are a serious danger to humans. I myself have witnessed it in peoples homes time and time again. I get to make the lovely choices for people who came to me as a last resort to fix those dogs. 

And I am the very professional who gets to tell people in the nicest way possible "Its time to let them go..."

There are some very poorly bred, poor temperament dogs that were dealt some VERY ugly cards. 

My only problem with threads that go on about a breed being bad is because it comes as a sweeping generalization. 
If you didn't generalize and entire breed into a lump of garbage and hog wash then I wouldn't feel the need to throw my sarcasm of my dog in. 

I will jump right on your side of the line if only you talk about "dangerous dogs" as they should be. They are not an entire breed. 

Should I make the sweeping generalization that all White shepherds are complete nerve bags who run away from their problems instead of defend themselves because my white shepherd would do just that?

Absolutely not. I know each and every dog is different, and if I discuss behavioral issues, genetics, temperament flaws, I make sure I speak about the individual dog and case.

I, unlike you, do not let the conformation bias of a few bad experiences take over.

there are QUITE a few different breeders in this world. We may hate them or we may like them. We may respect them but not agree with what they breed for etc.
But one thing is for sure, each and every line is different whether we like it or not. 

look at the vast amounts of research a German Shepherd fancier has to go through to learn their lines and how to breed for what. You recognize those differences quite easily within your own breed. What makes you think any other breed doesn't hold the same genetic diversity?

So I'll say it one more time. I have zero problems admitting my breeds of choice have some very dangerous look a likes.
But I am not going to sit back and allow you to make an ignorant statement about the whole population of them because you cannot overcome a conformation bias. 

that goes not just for pitbulls or german shepherds, but every breed.

I even have a problem with people saying all little dogs are obnoxious aggression nerve bags. 

good day.


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## Falkosmom

The second time I ever took my GSD puppy to a dog park he was three months old and twenty five pounds. He was minding his own business laying under a bench when an adult pit bull grabbed him and would not let him go. The pits owners did nothing as the other people there had to pull his dog off my screaming puppy. I too thought not the breed, just this particular dog.

As I was an avid dog park fan, this was the first of several attacks by pit bulls inflicted on my nonDA GSD and I witnessed too many attacks on other dogs by pits. Needless to say, I stay out of dog parks now.

I live in a low rent district. Almost everybody has a pitbull. I keep a billy club and pepper spray at the door to protect my fenced in dogs from pit bulls trying to get into my yard to fight with them. It is not an oddity, it is routine.

Last month a woman was walking her chihuahua a block away from my home and a pit bull broke through his fence and killed her dog. 

Just a week ago there was a woman that lives not too far away that owns a pit, a GSD mix and a couple of beagles. A man was walking his pit near her home and that was all it took to set her pit bull off. It attacked her GSD with a vengeance. The woman came out to try to save the GSD, she even laid herself on top of her GSD, but it was to no avail. The frenzied pit bull began to shred his owner while trying to destroy the GSD. The GSD had to be destroyed, his injuries were just to great. The lady had to be hospitalized, but she will be okay in time.

This past winter a woman was in her yard with her pit bull. She slipped and fell and that was all it took to trigger her pit. The neighbors heard her cries for help and tried to get her dog off of her but could not. As the pit continued its assault, one neighbor yelled that he had a gun, did the owner want him to shoot her pit, the owner agreed and the man shot and killed the pit to get it off of her.

On the other hand, I have met a handful of really sweet pits, I really like those particular dogs. But I have seen too much, I do not let pits near my dogs. It is my job to protect them and I promptly leave the area when a pit bull arrives, be it at a park, walking down the street or even at the vets.

MisterK, do you really want to take such a chance with your dog?


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## Konotashi

In this situation, it depends. 

I know that Gracie, my mom's pit bull, is great with Aiden (25 lb. Frenchie), Ozzy (who weighs 13 lbs), and our blind/deaf 15 year old mini schnauzer/pit bull mix that weighs about 20 lbs. Sania, our lab, does not tolerate Gracie, so she starts fights. Being a pit bull, Gracie won't back down, and fights are guaranteed if the two are not kept separated at all times. As long as another dog doesn't show aggression toward her, she's totally fine. 

You said that your dog can be reactive/aggressive toward other dogs. This would be concerning, given that pit bulls are inherently dog aggressive. If your friend's pit bull is anything like Gracie, and your dog showed aggression to the pit, a horrid, bloody fight could break out. 

I would definitely use extreme caution in this case.


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## Jessiewessie99

Regardless of breed, I would be cautious of my dogs meeting another dog. I always prefer to meet in a neutral area where the dogs are on leashed and are able to be controlled and if anything were to happen it would be able to be stopped quickly. Lucky enough my dogs are pretty good with other dogs, they have played with dogs of all sorts of breeds including Pitbulls and Pit Mixes, and NEVER had an issue, some of the best dogs they played with were Pitbulls and Pit mixes.

The breed should NOT matter, no matter what the dog's breed is, you should be cautious. I don't follow the hype, and neither should you. Be cautious with any new dog your girl meets. Since you have admitted your dog has had reactive/aggression issues with other dogs, I would be cautious with her and be extra careful. Also be leery of the owner:

http://www.mysecuritysign.com/img/lg/S/Beware-Owner-Safety-Sign-S-6985.gif


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## MountainGSDs

misterW said:


> I don't know if I'd go that far. Dogs, like most primates, are very social animals, and I'd think anyone would be hard pressed to deny that they enjoy playing with other dogs. Sure, they can be happy just living with humans, but they clearly don't play and interact with humans in the same way.
> 
> It also happens that (a) I enjoy watching dogs chase each other around, (b) it gives me an opportunity to practice commands with her while there are distractions, (c) it gives her some good exercise without me walking her, and (d) it's not all that much of an inconvenience. So, it works for me, anyway.


 
Pack animals need their pack. You and your family and dogs are their pack.

Maybe a poker night of pool night or a FB account?


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## jetscarbie

I know absolutely nothing about pits. I think they are beautiful, majestic dogs, though. I think it's probably a type of breed that is best suited with a dog owner that is willing to spend the time training it...much like other bigger breed dogs. 

Don't know much about about the OP stating his friends pit would grab ahold of a rope and not let go. I know I play rope with my shepherds and they all grab ahold and won't let go until I say "release". Not sure if it's different with a pit, but it seems like OP's friend should spend time teaching his dog basic release commands. That would concern me some....and that would concern me with any breed...not just pits.

IMO...I would want to observe this dog more closely and see how he acts around other dogs before I introduce my dog to him. Then if I decided to introduce them together.....I would probably do it as a walk together for a few weeks.

I really don't do the whole dogs playing together with strangers....but I do like my dogs and my friend's dog to get along together. Makes for nice spring/summer get togethers when we grill. Plus one plus side to having doggie friends....if something every happens and you need a friend to help you with your dogs. It helps to have a good relationship both ways. (for example...you got sick and was in the hospital, or they got sick. Not everybody has family close by)


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## JakodaCD OA

In the end, whomever has posted, it 'depends on the dogs involved as to whether they are going to get along or not',,is the answer.

I don't care if you have purple people eating monster of any breed , there are dogs that do not get along or might perceive a 'play gesture' as a 'threat gesture' and react.

As for not allowing pit bashing,,I've seen ALOT of it in this thread..

The snarky, insulting , childish comments really derail from the original topic. So I suggest it stay on topic or it will be shut down


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## Mrs.K

> As for not allowing pit bashing,,I've seen ALOT of it in this thread..
> 
> The snarky, insulting , childish comments really derail from the original topic. So I suggest it stay on topic or it will be shut down


That's what I don't understand... there are enough aggression issues topic about our own beloved breed to say the same thing about GSD's than what is said about the Pit. 

Personally, I don't have issues with any Pit as long as they are well trained and social. I recently learned about some Pits that are worked and titled in SAR. The Breed can do just as much and is just as good as the GSD. There are no good or bad breeds. There are weak nerved, badly bred dogs and bad dog owners but no entire breed is a bad breed.


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## kitmcd

Well stated Mrs.K


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## Discoetheque

I'm comfortable with my dogs being around any other dog that is well-behaved, healthy and clean with diligent owners. After all, I can only trust my dog and will trust you to trust yours.

Discoe is an even dog. She has shown no off-the-bat aggression toward other dogs in the time that I've had her, no matter what the breed, the gender, the alteration status or the size. She plays well with puppies and will alter her play for small dogs. She's been used in a few CGC evaluations as the 'neutral dog'. This said, she's met many Yorkies, Chihuahua, Boxers, Pyrs, and even APBTs.

She once rode back from a road trip with one using her as a full-body pillow. We travel to shows with this same dog, and they can be crated beside one another or sitting leashed next to one another. I think the APBT actually likes her more than she likes it.

She has met Maris' dog, Nina more than once and even BHed with her.

The Pits I know (both the ones owned by good friends and 90% of the ones I see at my job) are happy, friendly goof balls who want everyone in their company to have a good time. I don't know if this is in their breed standard or if these are just standouts, but they're the ones that I'd rather surround myself with. I have no problem with the breed. It's not the breed for me, but I respect them as individuals the same as every other and appreciate them for what's in front of me rather than what the last one was and what the next one will probably be.


There are only a handful of Pit Bulls I would let my dogs around, but these are dogs owned by people I know well, with a lot of the same ideals that I have, and the dogs are dogs that I know well, have been watching for years so their behavior has become, for the greater part, textbook for them. Still, we remain attentive to our dogs and their body language. After all, nothing is 100% predictable.


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## misterW

MountainGSDs said:


> Pack animals need their pack. You and your family and dogs are their pack.
> 
> Maybe a poker night of pool night or a FB account?


If I had other dogs, I wouldn't seek them out. It's just me and her. I give her lots of walks and play, but I can't run like a dog or roughhouse like a dog. It clearly enriches her life to see a dog she likes now and then and I like to watch them run. Seems like a win win to me.


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## chelle

GatorDog said:


> Guess that makes me another idiot pit owner, huh.


I never said anything about "idiot" pit owner.



4TheDawgies said:


> .....My only problem with threads that *go on about a breed being bad* is because it comes as a sweeping generalization. *If you didn't generalize and entire breed *into a lump of garbage and hog wash then I wouldn't feel the need to throw my sarcasm of my dog in.


I didn't do this.



4TheDawgies said:


> Should I make the sweeping generalization that all White shepherds are complete nerve bags who run away from their problems instead of defend themselves because my white shepherd would do just that?


You could and many have and do. The Whites don't get a great deal of respect around here. Especially the white mutts, such as mine. It is what it is. I have another breed at home that gets a ton of negativity because many of that breed are crazy, neurotic fear biters. Mine isn't. Unfortunately, that breed is overrun with such dogs. I don't hate the people who have had exposure to the crazy ones and feel that way about them. I acknowledge there are many with issues. 



4TheDawgies said:


> I, unlike you, do not let the conformation bias of a few bad experiences *take over.*


You get all this from a single sentence I wrote far back in this post.

Since that one sentence, I've been told:
--I am ignorant & make ignorant statements
--I must live under a rock
--I "spew"
--I say negative things
--I follow misconceptions and argue them
--I am close minded
--I cannot overcome a conformation bias

I ask that people re-read what has transpired on this thread to honestly assess if the responses were truly in line with what was said by ME. There have been FAR more negative things said by others in this thread.

You can't change my reality. The reality of the situation where *I* live is that Pits are extremely common and often owned by folks who live in the poorer neighborhoods for protection. They are usually left outside. I couldn't say for sure, but I think the probability is that they never receive any formal training and are encouraged to be aggressive. Likely trained specifically for that.

I do not hate "your" breed. All I ever said on that vein was that I was leery of them. And I am. *Along with several+ breeds. * Leery is not a condemnation. When the odds, at least *HERE*, in my world, in this area, in some neighborhoods, are higher that the pit will be dangerous than not be dangerous, I have to be careful for my and my dogs' sake.

If you are going to take this personally, so be it. It isn't meant that way.

Just look at the current dogs at our shelter:
Animal Rescue League of Iowa

There are always more pits than anything else at the shelter. I look at the dogs often. Why are people turning in so many of them? Because we have a PROBLEM here.


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## Falkosmom

I live in a pit bull neighborhood. It is rare that I take a chance walking my dogs where I live. I usually load them into the car and take them somewhere else. I do not fear the drug dealers, hoodlums and the friday night shootings, but I am in total fear for me and my dogs of the pits in the neighborhood.

I am sure that some of these dogs are trained to fight, but most are family pets, I know many of the owners, they are my neighbors and they are not all thugs, just low income and uneducated to proper confinement and control of a pit. 

I am surrounded by everybody else's pits on a daily basis and I have first hand experience with living in a pit neighborhood. It most certainly can dictates many aspects of one's lifestyle, especially if you are a pet owner. 

So many on this forum have a lot of experience owning pits or being exposed to a chosen few at parks and training or maybe even a neighbor or two has one, some even do rescue, but until you live in an area such as where I do, you really can't comprehend the reality or experience of living with so many pits, and it is not a favorable one.


----------



## GSDolch

In chelle's defense, I think to many people are taking what is said to personally and putting themselves in a position that they are not in.

Peoples area of living are different. In some areas is the GSDs that are the "bad" dog, in some the Chi's, in others the Pits. Chelle stated that they were talking about their area...unless one lives in their area and knows how it runs/works, then making blanket statements about people being racist has no bases. If someone said *all* and *everyone with pits* etc etc then I could see, but that is not this case.

I lived on St. Croix USVI. I would NOT trust ANY pit, by ANYONE on that island. No way no HOW. You can drive through Christiansted and hear the dog fits going on. Guess what..its all pit type dogs. Oh, and to top it off, its all black people too. 

Racist!!! Racist you say? HA. There is racists then there is fact. 95% of the people down there are black. (I use this term because Im not gonna list *all* the nationalities). And the dogs they use are pit type dogs. The locals, that don't fight dogs, are usually afraid of any type of dog because of this. Animals are not taken very well care of down there either. You don't need a barn to have a horse..why when you can tie it to a tree in your back yard!

People may take offense to what I have said, that is fine, but I have not made *any* sweeping general statements and neither did chelle. People need to learn to not take *everything* so seriously and offensive. Dare I go as far to say that those people who do, have a reason to? 

OP. If you know the person and the dog well, then there is nothing wrong with giving it a try and seeing how things go. If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't. Good luck!


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## misterW

Here's a couple questions, in a genuine attempt to understand the position of those who would not be more wary of pitbulls than other breeds. I personally have never had a bad experience with a pitbull, so I am not coming into this discussion with my position already made up (after all, that is why I posed the question). Sorry if the questions sound silly; I'm just trying to go back to the beginning to understand your position. 

1) Are there differences between dog breeds? 

2) If so, are those differences found only in the body of the dog, or also in the brain?


----------



## Lesley1905

Unfortunately people are going to believe what they hear from other people, and what they see in rap videos. Every dog is capable of hurting another dog and/or person. What it boils down to, if you don't trust that particular dog, then don't let your dog around it. I won't let Brody, my GSD, or Zella, my PITBULL, around the next door neighbors Golden Retriever. Not because of the breed, but because he is not well trained, socialized, and is dog aggressive. That is a good reason for not letting your dog around another dog, not because of the actual breed. So MisterK....you should go and watch your friends pitbull first before you pass judgement on the entire breed. If he appears aggressive with other dogs, then don't let him near your dog. I don't let my dogs near any other dogs, unless I know them personally and know for sure they are not dog aggressive. And yes, a smaller dog like a Chihuahua could hurt your dog. They are fast, and it takes a quick nip to the jugular like DJ etzel said. You should see some of the small dogs that come into my clinic...I think you would be surprised at certain dogs.


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## 4TheDawgies

You guys aren't the only one who live in neighborhoods where pits are prevalent or where dogs running at large are a problem. I used to volunteer for a rescue in what I call the slums of kansas city. A drug dealer was shot in the street 5 houses away from where the rescue was. 

No dog in that neighborhood knew what the inside of a house even looked like. 

Pitbulls jumped fences escaping and running at us. Rude people screaming obscenities at me about doing horrible things to me or asking if the rescue dogs I was walking were going to breed.

Again your experiences with pitbulls charging you or scaring you are entirely situation based not an actual good representation of what pitbulls are. 

I assisted with a few captures of dogs with a program called No More Homeless pets KC. Every last pitbull I met was either very friendly or extremely scared and submissive. 

Just two weeks ago I found a pit running the streets. I stopped and called out to him and he ran to me, submissive peed in excitement and rolled on his back exposing his belly. I had to pick him up to get him in my van to take him to safety. 


I live in the country. Time and time again my hand almost gets taken off by a neighbors yellow lab with severe aggression problems. A German shorthair pointer another 4 houses down will attack you, your dogs, your bike or car etc.

These dogs are poor examples of their breeds. Maybe they were allowed to get away with this crap so they keep doing it. Or maybe they were bred by a puppymill. 

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that you have a confirmation bias about this. Your small exposure to poor examples of the breed, does not represent the breed as a whole.

I am certainly sorry that is all the exposure you've had. Because when you meet a well bred dog of any breed it is truly a joy to spend time with them.


----------



## GSDolch

misterW said:


> 1) Are there differences between dog breeds?
> 
> 2) If so, are those differences found only in the body of the dog, or also in the brain?



1) Yes

2) Both. This is not a bad thing and I don't see why people get so defensive over it. If a dog is known for dog aggression, then it seems common sense to be aware of that and take it into consideration. The same for dogs that have a tendency to run and be good escape artists (Huskies anyone?). Its common sense to be aware and take into consideration these things.


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## RocketDog

I think personally---I'm sure I'll get flamed for this--but EVERY LARGE BREED of dog has the potential for newsworthy issues. Every decade seems to have it's "Horrible" breed. Remember the Rotts of the 90's? The GSD's and Dalmations of the 80's? Now it's the Pits. 

The thing is, dogs come in and out of fashion, all sorts of people who should never consider that breed decide to get one, all sorts of breeders emerge and most of the dogs have horrible nerves or issues, combined with the lack of knowledge and training on the owners part. Most of the general public does not go beyond one or two "Puppy" and "basic" classes. And those are done in the first 6 months, never to be continued. Half of the population (or better) still "rubs their nose in it" or thinks growling at the food bowl is "natural". All dogs of all sizes and breeds have the same issues, it's just when they get to be a certain size, they're dangerous. 

One day the pitbull's time in the spotlight will wane and another breed will take it's place. The main thing is the OWNERS. This is why there will always be dog attacks, dog bites, and the rare dog fatality in the news.


----------



## GSDolch

4TheDawgies said:


> You guys aren't the only one who live in neighborhoods where pits are prevalent or where dogs running at large are a problem. I used to volunteer for a rescue in what I call the slums of kansas city. A drug dealer was shot in the street 5 houses away from where the rescue was.
> 
> No dog in that neighborhood knew what the inside of a house even looked like.
> 
> Pitbulls jumped fences escaping and running at us. Rude people screaming obscenities at me about doing horrible things to me or asking if the rescue dogs I was walking were going to breed.
> 
> *Again your experiences with pitbulls charging you or scaring you are entirely situation based not an actual good representation of what pitbulls are. *
> 
> I assisted with a few captures of dogs with a program called No More Homeless pets KC. Every last pitbull I met was either very friendly or extremely scared and submissive.
> 
> Just two weeks ago I found a pit running the streets. I stopped and called out to him and he ran to me, submissive peed in excitement and rolled on his back exposing his belly. I had to pick him up to get him in my van to take him to safety.
> 
> 
> I live in the country. Time and time again my hand almost gets taken off by a neighbors yellow lab with severe aggression problems. A German shorthair pointer another 4 houses down will attack you, your dogs, your bike or car etc.
> 
> These dogs are poor examples of their breeds. Maybe they were allowed to get away with this crap so they keep doing it. Or maybe they were bred by a puppymill.
> 
> Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that you have a confirmation bias about this


I really think people are coming at it from two different angles. Talking about ones experience and how it is in _*their area*_ are not representing as a whole. I think this is where things are getting muddled. I cannot speak for..say, people in say, Salem, Mass. Because I do not live there, never even been there. So I would not presume to argue with someone who grew up there when they tell me how things are.


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## 4TheDawgies

misterW said:


> Here's a couple questions, in a genuine attempt to understand the position of those who would not be more wary of pitbulls than other breeds. I personally have never had a bad experience with a pitbull, so I am not coming into this discussion with my position already made up (after all, that is why I posed the question). Sorry if the questions sound silly; I'm just trying to go back to the beginning to understand your position.
> 
> 1) Are there differences between dog breeds?


Yes there are many differences. But ultimately a dog is still carved from the same stone as every other dog. Breeding has fine tuned animals into specific versions or more exaggerated thing to create a breed as a whole. although even within a breed there are many differences. Just look at the different lines our own breed has. 




misterW said:


> 2) If so, are those differences found only in the body of the dog, or also in the brain?


They are also found in the brain, the desires, drives, etc.

But with literally every living creature you are trying to evaluate, you must take into consideration it wasn't just nature creating what is in front of you, it was also nurture.


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## Discoetheque

misterW said:


> Here's a couple questions, in a genuine attempt to understand the position of those who would not be more wary of pitbulls than other breeds. I personally have never had a bad experience with a pitbull, so I am not coming into this discussion with my position already made up (after all, that is why I posed the question). Sorry if the questions sound silly; I'm just trying to go back to the beginning to understand your position.
> 
> 1) Are there differences between dog breeds?
> 
> 2) If so, are those differences found only in the body of the dog, or also in the brain?


I wholeheartedly believe there are differences between dog breeds. And that these differences are in the brain. We take into account that well over 100 breeds have been (sometimes not so carefully) crafted for distinctive purposes over decades and centuries. Honed for different types of work, be it idle companionship like the Shih-tzu and the Pekingese, hunting, working alongside or independent of humans. And while many of these dogs can transition and overlap into roles they were never intended to (ie. a Chinese Crested doing weight-pull and succeeding considerably in its own right, a pit bull as a drug-sniffing dog, a Boston Terrier doing Schutzhund), the point is that specific traits not only in form, but in thought went into the creation of these breeds. 

And even today, the breeds are still evolving. Creation is never stagnant. And sometimes this is for the better, like our GSDs making a comeback as seeing-eye dogs and service dogs. Other times, it's for the worse, in the case of the bull dog losing its intended purpose and instead being pitted against others of its type, or the decline of the English Bulldog into something that some want to refuse to acknowledge as a dog. 

All my rambling aside, I'm no warier of a Pit bull than any other because I know that like every other breed of dog out there, there are exceptional examples of the breed as well as terrible examples. Their dog-aggressiveness was woven into their lines, at one time a "desirable" trait which like other 'desirable' traits, is simply there or it isn't. But this is not the problem with the breed. It's the management. Most every incident involving a pit bull biting a child, or another dog, or a man, or a cat, is because of mismanagement. And we can just as easily take 'Pit bull' and replace it with "Golden Retriever" or "Husky" or "Pom". Any breed mismanaged is a detriment not only to the breed, but to the species.

The pit bull's detriment is in its popularity. Everyone has one. Everyone is breeding them, and most are breeding for the wrong reason and are breeding the wrong dogs. Higher concentration=higher chance of incident. And already with likely more than half of pit-bull owners being either disadvantaged, ignorant to the need for management of their breed (proper training, understanding body language, proper restraint, muzzling an aggressive dog in public, proper exercise, spaying and neutering, and neutralizing a dog for who there are no other reasonable options) or knowing these needs and deciding to disregard them, this inclines the chance of incident even more to where it becomes astronomical in comparison.


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## Falkosmom

What I have witnessed with most of the pits I have encountered is they hit an age of maturity, between six months and eighteen months where that switch triggers without warning. Most other dogs also mature at this age, but with these particular pits, you have a happy, friendly pit that plays nice with others one minute, and when that moment does strike, it is all over. 

The pits I have seen where this happens, once this switch is flipped, and it comes with no warning, miraculously change that very second into an extremely DA dog that can no longer be brought around other dogs. I have seen it over and over at the parks.

Another big difference I have noticed is that when other dogs get into a scuffle in parks, they fight to dominate and then let it go. The pits I have seen do not, they must be physically removed from their victim. (There are pit rescues out there that require possesion of a jawbreaker in order for a pit to be placed in a home in case the dog would ever escape.)

Also, I noticed with other dogs, a scuffle is either over food, toys, two dogs dancing for dominance or some other such reason. The pits I have witnessed have no such reason, they seek out the less aggressive more submissive dogs for reasons unknown to me and tend to leave the more dominant in your face kind of dogs alone.

But then, once again, I have encountered maybe five pits that were incredibly sweet and were really great dogs, but they were few and far in between.


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## GregK

RocketDog said:


> EVERY LARGE BREED of dog has the potential for newsworthy issues .


 
That's right!


Family dog saves mom from house fire | News | Highlands Ranch News


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## EchoGSD

I don't let my dogs socialize with ANY dog that is unknown to me, regardless of the breed. There are also dogs of various breeds (including mixes) that I know well and won't let my dogs socialize with because I have witnessed instability and aggression from them. It's my job to keep my dogs safe; when I give them a down-stay command, they need to be able to trust me that it is safe for them to obey. 
However, if this is simply a breed question (pit bull or no pit bull), I'd still err on the side of caution. I've been teaching and partaking of dog training classes for many many years and have yet to see a pit bull who couldn't be incited to attack another dog. The direct eye contact, the raised stiff tail, the "freeze" with the lowered head....all indications of a dog in "ready" mode. They seem to go from "0" to "attack" very quickly and with great intent. I've seen it too many times to risk it with my girls.


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## 4TheDawgies

Oh and Chelle one last thing,

I was never originally addressing directly to you in this thread when I posted the sarcastic post earlier. You simply addressed me directly and said I was being defensive by doing so. 

So I have directed some of my posts directly back at you. Main reason, you are willing to discuss it with me, but mostly because I saw you apparently said most pitbulls are owned by 20 year olds in the ghetto. 

I am far too lazy this morning to go through your old posts and check if that actually was you. If it was, then you hold no weight in your arguments against me because you've proven to me that you have ridiculous unrealistic ideas about life.

If it wasn't you then I apologize for the misunderstanding and move on. 




but when you guys (in general) discuss pitbulls in the areas you live in and saying most are like that, its the equivalent of myself saying I live in the ghetto and all I see are black people shooting other people in the streets and fighting over drugs and gang wars, black people must be terrible.

Its a bigot comment that has nothing to do with pitbulls as a whole. Why bother bringing it up to this OP if their friends dog isn't one of those dogs?

If the OP's friends dog give them a reason to stay away, then BY ALL MEANS do so because the individual DOG has a problem.


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## GSDolch

4TheDawgies said:


> Its a bigot comment that has nothing to do with pitbulls as a whole. Why bother bringing it up to this OP if their friends dog isn't one of those dogs?


The same reason people bring up they have good experiences.

The OP asked for opinions on what people would do, and people gave their opinions and experiences and what they would do/have done.



> but when you guys (in general) discuss pitbulls in the areas you live in and saying most are like that, its the equivalent of myself saying I live in the ghetto and all I see are black people shooting other people in the streets and fighting over drugs and gang wars, *black people must be terrible.*


however, the difference is I didn't see anyone add "All pit bulls must be terrible". So one is being presumptuous when they add that to someones statements when they didn't put it.


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## GatorDog

If people here hadn't generalized pit bulls, then we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

All I know is that I know my dog. I live in what some people would consider a ghetto, and I am not black or a male, I didn't get her for "protection", and she wears no spiked collars. So I really don't appreciate that generalization. I will still love my dog regardless of what others may think of her.


----------



## GatorDog

GSDolch said:


> however, the difference is I didn't see anyone add "All pit bulls must be terrible". So one is being presumptuous when they add that to someones statements when they didn't put it.


I did see extremely similar comments including the one that read "all pits should be muzzled". This is clearly leading to "all pits are aggressive", is it not?


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## Falkosmom

I see I am misunderstood. My comments regarding the area I live in is merely to support my comments regarding my extensive daily living experiences with pit bulls. 

And to further clarify, much of my experience with pits fighting is from a dog park located in a very wealthy and well educated neighborhood. The owners of most of those pits were definitely not low income or uneducated or even black.


----------



## GSDolch

GatorDog said:


> I did see extremely similar comments including the one that read "all pits should be muzzled". This is clearly leading to "all pits are aggressive", is it not?



This is one I missed. I will reread again and see if I can find it....posts are starting to run together now. lol.


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## GatorDog

Here's the quote, 

"All pits should be muzzled in public unless they pass some kind of aggression test... Oh wait... They kill their owners more than strangers so tht won't help."


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## GregK

GatorDog said:


> "All pits should be muzzled in public unless they pass some kind of aggression test...


HA HA....good luck with this.


----------



## Mrs.K

If it's for pits than it should be for all dogs, period. No matter if it is a Westi, Shepherd, Pit Bull or Labradoodle...


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## VegasResident

Mrs.K said:


> If it's for pits than it should be for all dogs, period. No matter if it is a Westi, Shepherd, Pit Bull or Labradoodle...


:thumbup:


----------



## robinhuerta

None of my dogs are required to be friends or pals to any other dogs.....they are only expected to live and reside without a problem to each other.
I would not take my dog to a dog park, nor a buddy play date......others do, and that is their prerogative.
My son has a large female dog of a "bully breed"...a Dogue cross. She is social, and non aggressive to other dogs.....but she has also been raised by a responsible owner.
I think albeit some breeds may have the potential of being a more "serious" breed when displaying aggression.......all dogs have the ability to bite, maul and kill to some extent.
*Responsibility is the ingredient needed when owning any breed of dog*


----------



## ozzymama

robinhuerta said:


> None of my dogs are required to be friends or pals to any other dogs.....they are only expected to live and reside without a problem to each other.
> I would not take my dog to a dog park, nor a buddy play date......others do, and that is their prerogative.
> 
> *Responsibility is the ingredient needed when owning any breed of dog*



Agree on all points.


----------



## jang

I Take my dog to the dog park GASP!! She gets along good with all other dogs--But when I take her to my daughters in NC who has a pit mix I can see a huge difference in how or what that dog considers (and my daughter) "play". Her dog constantly grabs at Sibis throat--runs beside her biting at her throat--I tell my daughter this is not how dogs play and she just -well- thinks it is.. I have never seen another dog "play" this way and Sibi does not like it...Within 15 mins or so (if I let it go that long) her pit has blood on him and Sibi has cuts on her throat-though not as bad as the pit.. Now when I go to NC I rent my own place for this very reason--I hate her dog and am afraid of pits--I am sorry if this offends anyone--it is just my own personal opinion..However, my grandson is 5 and is autistic--I truly fear for him with this dog in the house..


----------



## 4TheDawgies

jang said:


> I Take my dog to the dog park GASP!! She gets along good with all other dogs--But when I take her to my daughters in NC who has a pit mix I can see a huge difference in how or what that dog considers (and my daughter) "play". Her dog constantly grabs at Sibis throat--runs beside her biting at her throat--I tell my daughter this is not how dogs play and she just -well- thinks it is.. I have never seen another dog "play" this way and Sibi does not like it...Within 15 mins or so (if I let it go that long) her pit has blood on him and Sibi has cuts on her throat-though not as bad as the pit.. Now when I go to NC I rent my own place for this very reason--I hate her dog and am afraid of pits--I am sorry if this offends anyone--it is just my own personal opinion..However, my grandson is 5 and is autistic--I truly fear for him with this dog in the house..


If you are genuinely afraid of pitbulls then that is understandable. The media and your bad experience has put you into a situation that you are fearful of them. 
You haven't expressed it but I hope thats for the lack of actually feeling it, but I am glad you have not expressed interest in eradicating the breed. You recognize you are fearful of them and that is where your opinion stems from.

I just wanted to let you know that you can rest easier knowing not all pitbulls play like this. In the first minute of this video you can see how pitbulls actually play. This is a dog that is balanced, fulfilled, and well socialized






Dogs have quite a few versions of play. Generally it is a juvenile version of an actual fight, or an actual catch of prey. They chase they catch, one is submissive one is dominant, then they switch roles. 
If the pitbull your daughter owns is doing what you say, then that is simply a lack of understanding of boundaries in play. A dog hasn't actually told her HEY lay off. It also is a sign that your daughter may not be exercising her dog enough so her dog exhibits more excitement in play causing a more intense play, which leads to cuts and scrapes.

As a kid I can't tell you how many bruises, scratches, broken bones etc. me and my brother had from play wrestling. and we are humans with teeth we don't use for biting. 

When you own a dog of any breed you have to keep them fulfilled in exercise, discipline and affection (thank you Cesar Millan LOL)
That is one thing that man talks about that I am 100% behind. not enough people do this for their dogs. 

If I put you in a padded room with nothing to do and no one to talk to, you would loose your mind! well so do the dogs in hour homes!


So to put it simply, if your daughter managed her dog better (even if it was an alternate breed), her dog would have better play skills. 


dogs that are taken from their litter mates too soon, not allowed to socialize with dogs who teach proper greeting, play and behavioral skills, then a dog will appear awkward and overzealous because it doesn't know better. 

That is all. If your dog comes away with scratches those are from rough play. If your dog comes away with puncture wounds then I would be concerned. 

Maybe before you let your dogs play together you can go for a hike on leash to get the over the top excitement worn off before they unleash it on each other?


----------



## chelle

4TheDawgies said:


> Oh and Chelle one last thing, ..... So I have directed some of my posts directly back at you. Main reason, you are willing to discuss it with me, *but mostly because I saw you apparently said most pitbulls are owned by 20 year olds in the ghetto. *
> 
> I am far too lazy this morning to go through your old posts and check if that actually was you. If it was, then you hold no weight in your arguments against me because you've proven to me that you have ridiculous unrealistic ideas about life.
> 
> If it wasn't you then I apologize for the misunderstanding and move on.


So you have been upset about thinking I was making generalizations, assumptions and the like - but you'll take someone's word, who took my quote out of context and from a *completely different thread entirely* -- and make an automatic judgment about me? Hum.

Maybe before you jump so quickly to say I "hold no weight" and that I've "proven I have ridiculous unrealistic ideas about life" , you should read the thread that came from. Maybe it would change your mind, maybe not and I really don't care. Maybe GatorDog can be so kind as to post a link, since apparently he/she is keeping track of this sort of thing. I recall the post, but can't remember the title for the life of me. It's been awhile. What I do recall is that it was a similar argument to what this one has devolved to be; I was talking about *my *area of the world and was accused repeatedly of not liking pits.


----------



## GatorDog

The context of that thread was directly related to this topic. Have you changed your opinion since?


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## jang

Thank you Maris---very nice video and beautiful babies..And you are right about my daughter --she is lazy and does not work with the dog.. the dog has way too much energy when another dog comes around..I will try to be more open minded..
Jan


----------



## jang

jang said:


> Thank you Maris---very nice video and beautiful babies..And you are right about my daughter --she is lazy and does not work with the dog.. the dog has way too much energy when another dog comes around..I will try to be more open minded..
> Jan


Wait a minute--i know you did not say my daughter was lazy!!! oops! that was me!!
Jan


----------



## chelle

GatorDog said:


> The context of that thread was directly related to this topic. Have you changed your opinion since?


No, I have not changed my opinion one single iota. And yes, the context *was* related to this topic. Then, as now, I was/am talking about HOW LIFE IS HERE. WHO THE MOST COMMON PIT OWNER IS. WHERE YOU FIND THESE OWNERS. (The poorer areas.) Sorry to shout, but I now think you're being purposefully obtuse and totally refusing to be anything close to reasonable.


----------



## GatorDog

Well there is nothing that anyone can say to change anyones mind on this topic once they have already developed their opinion, clearly. So I guess I am done here.


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## chicagojosh

lol, the end of the video is hysterical when the one GSD is pouncing the snow haha


----------



## DJEtzel

Let's check out some statistics here...

ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.

Oh, jeez... pit bulls passed more temperament tests than GSDs did as of March of last year in the US. Does that mean that the GSDs should all be muzzled in public?

What you guys aren't getting and are being close minded about, is that your area is BAD, the WORST, and isn't how things go everywhere. In MY neighborhood, I have to worry about labradoodles and small dogs attacking me and my GSD, but I don't hate all of them because I know that it is the OWNERS being the issue in the dog's aggression towards me, even though I've NEVER met a well-behaved pet dog smaller than 20lbs. I've been bit, nipped, chased, and my dog has been attacked, but I'm certainly holding no grudge.


----------



## Lesley1905

DJEtzel said:


> Let's check out some statistics here...
> 
> ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.
> 
> Oh, jeez... pit bulls passed more temperament tests than GSDs did as of March of last year in the US. Does that mean that the GSDs should all be muzzled in public?
> 
> What you guys aren't getting are are being close minded about, is that your area is BAD, the WORST, and isn't how things go everywhere. In MY neighborhood, I have to worry about labradoodles and small dogs attacking me and my GSD, but I don't hate all of them because I know that it is the OWNERS being the issue in the dog's aggression towards me, even though I've NEVER met a well-behaved pet dog smaller than 20lbs. I've been bit, nipped, chased, and my dog has been attacked, but I'm certainly holding no grudge.


 :thumbup:


----------



## GatorDog

DJEtzel said:


> Let's check out some statistics here...
> 
> ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.
> 
> Oh, jeez... pit bulls passed more temperament tests than GSDs did as of March of last year in the US. Does that mean that the GSDs should all be muzzled in public?
> 
> What you guys aren't getting are are being close minded about, is that your area is BAD, the WORST, and isn't how things go everywhere. In MY neighborhood, I have to worry about labradoodles and small dogs attacking me and my GSD, but I don't hate all of them because I know that it is the OWNERS being the issue in the dog's aggression towards me, even though I've NEVER met a well-behaved pet dog smaller than 20lbs. I've been bit, nipped, chased, and my dog has been attacked, but I'm certainly holding no grudge.


That's what I was trying to say. Just because your area is like that doesnt make it ok to pass judgement on the breed as a whole.


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## chicagojosh

how about we all judge dogs just like we are supposed to judge humans...individually  not as breeds or colors or religions, but just make an opinion on each individual dog based soley on that dog.


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> how about we all judge dogs just like we are supposed to judge humans...individually  not as breeds or colors or religions, but just make an opinion on each individual dog based soley on that dog.


That would be ideal, wouldn't it? 

Unfortuntely we have people like some of the members here who won't go into a vet's office if there is a pit looking dog there.


----------



## Lesley1905

chicagojosh said:


> how about we all judge dogs just like we are supposed to judge humans...individually  not as breeds or colors or religions, but just make an opinion on each individual dog based soley on that dog.


 

:hug:


----------



## Mrs.K

DJEtzel said:


> Let's check out some statistics here...
> 
> ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.
> 
> Oh, jeez... pit bulls passed more temperament tests than GSDs did as of March of last year in the US. Does that mean that the GSDs should all be muzzled in public?
> 
> What you guys aren't getting are are being close minded about, is that your area is BAD, the WORST, and isn't how things go everywhere. In MY neighborhood, I have to worry about labradoodles and small dogs attacking me and my GSD, but I don't hate all of them because I know that it is the OWNERS being the issue in the dog's aggression towards me, even though I've NEVER met a well-behaved pet dog smaller than 20lbs. I've been bit, nipped, chased, and my dog has been attacked, but I'm certainly holding no grudge.



Have you actually looked at the numbers and taken that into consideration? There were far more GSD's tested than Pit Bulls, and that too, plays a MAJOR role. 

*Pit Bulls tested: 804 passed: 695 failed: 109 result: 84.6%

German Shepherds tested: 3078 passed: 2597 failed: 481 result: 84.4%* 


At least post the results, not just link to them.


----------



## martemchik

I have no idea where this thread has gone since I commented on the 5th page or so, but man, GSD owners calling another breed dangerous and just forming opinions based on the few they have met is really funny to me. Our breed is able to do just as much, if not more damage than a pitbull. I watch my dog like a hawk when I am at the dog park because I know no matter who starts the dissagreement, my dog will finish it and then will be blamed for it if it is between him and a lab/terrier/pretty much anything but a pitbull. It doesn't matter how long another dog has been pestering him/humping him or what not, if he takes action, it will be on the "dangerous GSD."


----------



## chicagojosh

ah shucks...thanks for the hug Lesley


----------



## Steelhead

I would allow my dog to play with a pitbull at the dog park. I used to go early in the morning to avoid people (i just liked the park because I could let the dog run free without a leash and it was close by) and met this guy with a pit bull. At first I was reluctant because my dog was kind of dominant with other dogs (just a bunch of postering) and was thinking, this isnt the dog you want to mess with, but my dog was big and could hold his own, i was ready to grab whoever if it got to rough. After the "feeling out process", they ended up getting along fine. And would run together alot, I think my dog was actually too rough on the poor guy. He said people used to give him dirty looks and tell him pitbulls are dangerous and shouldnt be allowed at the dog park. But he said he got him from a rescue and he was thoroughly temperment tested and he watched him very closely and saw no ill effects.

I think you need to try and know the dog, talk to the owner and watch them closely like when introducing any dog.


----------



## GSDolch

chicagojosh said:


> how about we all judge dogs just like we are supposed to judge humans...individually  not as breeds or colors or religions, but just make an opinion on each individual dog based soley on that dog.



That would work if people could also make the distinction between "my area" and "everywhere".


----------



## GSDolch

Steelhead said:


> I think you need to try and know the dog, talk to the owner and watch them closely like when introducing any dog.


*nods*

I think in the end this is what it boils down to. Situations are going to be different and dependent on circumstances.


----------



## CookieTN

Yes, and I have let my dog do so in the past.
I would have been iffy with Cookie, but only because she tended to be dominant and I believe had some amount of dog-aggression. I had to be careful with her when it came to any dog.


----------



## DJEtzel

Mrs.K said:


> Have you actually looked at the numbers and taken that into consideration? There were far more GSD's tested than Pit Bulls, and that too, plays a MAJOR role.
> 
> *Pit Bulls tested: 804 passed: 695 failed: 109 result: 84.6%*
> 
> *German Shepherds tested: 3078 passed: 2597 failed: 481 result: 84.4%*
> 
> 
> At least post the results, not just link to them.


I guess I could do that... since you posted them innacurately. I lumped ALL of the "pit bulls" together, as we're not just talking about the APBT here.

American Pit Bull Terrier; 804 tested, 695 passed, 109 failed- 86.4%
American Staffordshire Terrier; 627 tested, 528 passed, 99 failed- 84.2%
Staffordshire Bull Terrier; 117 tested, 105 passed, 12 failed- 89.7%
Pit Bulls; 1,548 tested, 1,427 passed, 220 failed- 92.1%

German Shepherd Dog; 3,078 tested, 2,597 passed, 481 failed- 84.4%

There were approximately twice as many GSDs tested, but I don't see how that plays a role? The results are the same. More pit bulls taking this test are passing than GSDs taking it, it doesn't matter how many more GSDs happen to take it. THEY'RE FAILING.


----------



## chicagojosh

which breed scored lowest?


----------



## Mrs.K

DJEtzel said:


> I guess I could do that... since you posted them innacurately. I lumped ALL of the "pit bulls" together, as we're not just talking about the APBT here.
> 
> American Pit Bull Terrier; 804 tested, 695 passed, 109 failed- 86.4%
> American Staffordshire Terrier; 627 tested, 528 passed, 99 failed- 84.2%
> Staffordshire Bull Terrier; 117 tested, 105 passed, 12 failed- 89.7%
> Pit Bulls; 1,548 tested, 1,427 passed, 220 failed- 92.1%
> 
> German Shepherd Dog; 3,078 tested, 2,597 passed, 481 failed- 84.4%
> 
> There were approximately twice as many GSDs tested, but I don't see how that plays a role? The results are the same. More pit bulls taking this test are passing than GSDs taking it, it doesn't matter how many more GSDs happen to take it. THEY'RE FAILING.


But these are different breeds. If it was just one breed than they would be tested as one breed. Since they are tested, each by their own, you can't just count them all together and say: These are all Pit Bulls. 

There is a reason why they are tested separately.


----------



## GatorDog

GSDolch said:


> That would work if people could also make the distinction between "my area" and "everywhere".


Not if a generalization about an entire breed is being based on one person's personal experience in one place.


----------



## CookieTN

The thing is that the term "Pit Bull" doesn't *just* apply to the APBT, it's a generic term applying to several breeds.


----------



## DJEtzel

Mrs.K said:


> Have you actually looked at the numbers and taken that into consideration? There were far more GSD's tested than Pit Bulls, and that too, plays a MAJOR role.
> 
> *Pit Bulls tested: 804 passed: 695 failed: 109 result: 84.6%*
> 
> *German Shepherds tested: 3078 passed: 2597 failed: 481 result: 84.4%*
> 
> 
> At least post the results, not just link to them.





Mrs.K said:


> But these are different breeds. If it was just one breed than they would be tested as one breed. Since they are tested, each by their own, you can't just count them all together and say: These are all Pit Bulls.
> 
> There is a reason why they are tested separately.


But we, HERE, are talking about pit bulls in general, not the APBT specifically, so I showed the scores for all of them and added up the totals. 

My point is, all of these dogs are just as likely to be great canine citizens of society as German Shepherds. Except for the .2% of Am Staffs that lagged behind.


----------



## Mrs.K

DJEtzel said:


> But we, HERE, are talking about pit bulls in general, not the APBT specifically, so I showed the scores for all of them and added up the totals.
> 
> My point is, all of these dogs are just as likely to be great canine citizens of society as German Shepherds. Except for the .2% of Am Staffs that lagged behind.


Again, you can't put them all together. Each of them is a different breed! 

It's like putting Belgian Malinois, German Shepherds together since they are both "Shepherds".


----------



## GSDolch

GatorDog said:


> Not if a generalization about an entire breed is being based on one person's personal experience in one place.



I have yet to see that in the thread. I do see people jumping to that conclusion though and saying someone said it.

FYI I am not concerned with other threads.  I try to keep things specific to the thread and not cross over.


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> which breed scored lowest?


Well let's see...

Skye Terrier at 37.5%. 8 tested, 3 passed.

Then it's the Tibetan Mastiff at 42.9%. 14 tested, 6 passed.

Then it is the Treeing Feist at 50%. 2 were tested.


----------



## DJEtzel

Mrs.K said:


> Again, you can't put them all together. Each of them is a different breed!
> 
> It's like putting Belgian Malinois, German Shepherds together since they are both "Shepherds".


We're not talking about 1 or 2 of them though, we're talking about all of them as a whole, why would I only show one breed's statistics?

If we were somewhere debating shepherds and herding styles being unsafe, I would definitely dig up all of the shepherds- Australian, German, etc!


----------



## chicagojosh

DJEtzel said:


> Well let's see...
> 
> Skye Terrier at 37.5%. 8 tested, 3 passed.
> 
> Then it's the Tibetan Mastiff at 42.9%. 14 tested, 6 passed.
> 
> Then it is the Treeing Feist at 50%. 2 were tested.


thanks

so basically the GSD and pit breeds are within a percent or two of each other. 84-86 range...so not much difference then....


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

hahaha....the American Temperament Test is a last resort for pitbull owners to try and defend their breed. Anyone who checks the website know the test has nothing to do with aggression.

"
_*"Pit bulls score higher than ______"*_
As soon as the topic of pit bulls hits the comment sections, the pit bull apologia goes on the defensive and more often than not, the ATTS (American Temperament Testing Society) is the weapon of choice from their arsenal of myths. Typically the pit bull's ATTS scores will be inflated to unbelievable heights. It is not uncommon to read "pit bulls score higher than ANY other breed." A quick check of the available on demand ATTS statistics will bust that myth straight away. But the pit bull does score higher than many popular, safe, family friendly breeds of dogs. How could the dog responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks, score better than Lassie?"

Pit bull advocates have much invested in the ATTS myth. They clutch to these scores and parade them around as though they were the definitive tool that proves that their dogs are not only safe to be in the community but SAFER than most other dog breeds. 

The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work. The test favors bold dogs, dogs that need to face danger head on without hesitation and fear. Courage was desired and rewarded, timidity was not. The ATTS favors dogs like pit bulls over dogs like collies. It is important to note, the test does not evaluate dogs for "pet" suitability. 

*Some pit bull owners report that their pit bulls passed when it launched aggressively at the stranger while other pit bulls have passed when it barely acknowledged the stranger. Passing or failing is completely dependent upon the whims of the testers.*

According to pit bull owners, this is the most aggressive dog in the US:









They failed at 37%

as per ATTS website: *"Comparing scores with other dogs is not a good idea" *andthe test *"takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies"*. Cocker spaniels are evaluated against a cocker spaniel standard, not against german shepherds (or at least in theory, they are not supposed to), yet pit bull advocates would have you believe that all dogs are evaluated against one another.

pit bull advocates openly conspire to groom test candidates and cherry pick only those individual dogs that are likely to pass. This is a conscious decision done for the sole purpose of inflating the scores to improve to pit bull's image.

the ATTS apparently does not require papers for purebred dogs. It seems that you can report any breed you like and do not need to provide any registry papers to prove it. One thing I find especially interesting is the flexibility around the issue of purity in pit bulls. *When pit bulls attack, they are mixes but when they pass the ATTS, they are purebred, no questions asked.*

*The ATTS temperament test is scientifically invalid and unreliable. The test can not reliably predict how a dog will behave in the real world.* Owners PRACTICE the test with their dogs beforehand...there is no SURPRISE element.

Pit bull apologists love to cite beloved breeds of dogs who score lower than the APBT. But the reality is collie owners are not spending hours online seeking advice from other collie owners on how to pass the test, or spending a year preparing their dogs for this test. Collie mix owners are not quizzing testers about whether  or not their dogs can slip in under the radar as purebreds. Collie owners are not prescreening their dogs. Collie owners are not hiring ATTS experienced dog handlers to test their dogs. Collie owners are not cherry picking only those candidates that they think will pass the test. If they did, their breed would score higher than 79.4%. *Any* breed would do better under these artificial conditions. *But collie owners don't view their dogs as a cult religion and the ATTS as a bible.* Most people owning normal breeds of dogs view this test as a fun way to spend the morning with their dogs. The pit bull community views this test as a get out jail free card. 









THESE ARE COPIED OFF THE ATT PIT BULL MESSAGE BOARD:


Here pitbulltalk member Tiger describes her ATTS and her violation of the test rules while still passing."Doja did great and passed with flying colors. I was so proud of her.
She was the only dog tested there today that wanted to eat the threatening stranger - so she got high marks for that.
It was funny - most of the other dogs (Belgians included) only looked at him, or ignored him, Even when he was hollering and bashing a stick on the ground. But Doja hit the end of the lead like the little freight train she is and was telling him that he had best stay far away from her Mommy NOW!! Some of the people watching (including some of the testers) actually applauded a bit when she did that."

"another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she's not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though. they actually want the dog to identify threatening behavior--your dog gets lower marks if it fails to respond at all, like doc."

pbf Red
Personally I test only pit bulls I know are going to pass , mine or belonging to other people, because if a dog does not pass it hurts the breed statistics ( although it looks like they are not updating the numbers often). 


--------------------------------------------
The ATT does not prove Pits are not aggressive...it does not prove they are aggressive...the ATT simply proves that the pits tested act like the breed standard.

AMEN!


----------



## GatorDog

GSDolch said:


> I have yet to see that in the thread. I do see people jumping to that conclusion though and saying someone said it.
> 
> FYI I am not concerned with other threads.  I try to keep things specific to the thread and not cross over.


This statement was posted in this thread. If you can honestly say that this particular person's experiences with dogs have not caused judgement on the breed as a whole, then I guess I really don't get it. 

"Chelle, it doesn't matter if your face was ripped off tomorrow by a well bred pit with rich caring owners.... 

The pit cult following would 

1) deny it was a pit. No one in America can identify a pit
2) it would be your fault for the bite. YOU antagonized it by being in the room with it
3) claim it was from a backyard breeder
4) say the owners abused it...

No matter what, a pit can't hurt a human. They only attack ther dogs.

Now that is ignorance!!

My stepdad has at least one pitbull case a month... And beliee me, we can identify a pitbull. By law, it is any apbt, bull dog, stafforshire terrier or mix with those. We live in a city where the cheapest home is aroun 200000 dollars...
All lawyers and doctors and good people who treat their dogs well.

A pit killed a lab at the dog park a few months ago... Thank god they are now banned.

My dog has been attacked by on leash and off leash pits three times in six months. I have mace now and will spray any pit off leash that comes near us.

This is a German shepherd board... I wish the dumb pit debate could be left to the cult following pit bull forums. 

Deny deny deny....won't help bsl. All pits should be muzzled in public unless they pass some kind of aggression test... Oh wait... They kill their owners more than strangers so tht won't help."


----------



## DJEtzel

chicagojosh said:


> thanks
> 
> so basically the gsd and pit breeds are within a percent or two of each other. 84-86 range...so not much difference then....


exactly.


----------



## Mrs.K

DJEtzel said:


> We're not talking about 1 or 2 of them though, we're talking about all of them as a whole, why would I only show one breed's statistics?
> 
> If we were somewhere debating shepherds and herding styles being unsafe, I would definitely dig up all of the shepherds- Australian, German, etc!



Oh yeah? So don't you think it's unfair to dig up all the bully breeds and then add it all up against A SINGLE Breed? If you do that, you have to dig up ALL THE SHEPHERD BREEDS and add them up together and then compare the two. 

Each breed has it's own statistic, view them as such.


----------



## DJEtzel

x0emiroxy0x said:


> hahaha....the American Temperament Test is a last resort for pitbull owners to try and defend their breed. Anyone who checks the website know the test has nothing to do with aggression.
> 
> "
> _*"Pit bulls score higher than ______"*_
> As soon as the topic of pit bulls hits the comment sections, the pit bull apologia goes on the defensive and more often than not, the ATTS (American Temperament Testing Society) is the weapon of choice from their arsenal of myths. Typically the pit bull's ATTS scores will be inflated to unbelievable heights. It is not uncommon to read "pit bulls score higher than ANY other breed." A quick check of the available on demand ATTS statistics will bust that myth straight away. But the pit bull does score higher than many popular, safe, family friendly breeds of dogs. How could the dog responsible for roughly 50% of all fatal attacks, score better than Lassie?"
> 
> Pit bull advocates have much invested in the ATTS myth. They clutch to these scores and parade them around as though they were the definitive tool that proves that their dogs are not only safe to be in the community but SAFER than most other dog breeds.
> 
> The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work. The test favors bold dogs, dogs that need to face danger head on without hesitation and fear. Courage was desired and rewarded, timidity was not. The ATTS favors dogs like pit bulls over dogs like collies. It is important to note, the test does not evaluate dogs for "pet" suitability.
> 
> *Some pit bull owners report that their pit bulls passed when it launched aggressively at the stranger while other pit bulls have passed when it barely acknowledged the stranger. Passing or failing is completely dependent upon the whims of the testers.*
> 
> According to pit bull owners, this is the most aggressive dog in the US:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They failed at 37%
> 
> as per ATTS website: *"Comparing scores with other dogs is not a good idea" *andthe test *"takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies"*. Cocker spaniels are evaluated against a cocker spaniel standard, not against german shepherds (or at least in theory, they are not supposed to), yet pit bull advocates would have you believe that all dogs are evaluated against one another.
> 
> pit bull advocates openly conspire to groom test candidates and cherry pick only those individual dogs that are likely to pass. This is a conscious decision done for the sole purpose of inflating the scores to improve to pit bull's image.
> 
> the ATTS apparently does not require papers for purebred dogs. It seems that you can report any breed you like and do not need to provide any registry papers to prove it. One thing I find especially interesting is the flexibility around the issue of purity in pit bulls. *When pit bulls attack, they are mixes but when they pass the ATTS, they are purebred, no questions asked.*
> 
> *The ATTS temperament test is scientifically invalid and unreliable. The test can not reliably predict how a dog will behave in the real world.* Owners PRACTICE the test with their dogs beforehand...there is no SURPRISE element.
> 
> Pit bull apologists love to cite beloved breeds of dogs who score lower than the APBT. But the reality is collie owners are not spending hours online seeking advice from other collie owners on how to pass the test, or spending a year preparing their dogs for this test. Collie mix owners are not quizzing testers about whether or not their dogs can slip in under the radar as purebreds. Collie owners are not prescreening their dogs. Collie owners are not hiring ATTS experienced dog handlers to test their dogs. Collie owners are not cherry picking only those candidates that they think will pass the test. If they did, their breed would score higher than 79.4%. *Any* breed would do better under these artificial conditions. *But collie owners don't view their dogs as a cult religion and the ATTS as a bible.* Most people owning normal breeds of dogs view this test as a fun way to spend the morning with their dogs. The pit bull community views this test as a get out jail free card.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THESE ARE COPIED OFF THE ATT PIT BULL MESSAGE BOARD:
> 
> 
> Here pitbulltalk member Tiger describes her ATTS and her violation of the test rules while still passing."Doja did great and passed with flying colors. I was so proud of her.
> She was the only dog tested there today that wanted to eat the threatening stranger - so she got high marks for that.
> It was funny - most of the other dogs (Belgians included) only looked at him, or ignored him, Even when he was hollering and bashing a stick on the ground. But Doja hit the end of the lead like the little freight train she is and was telling him that he had best stay far away from her Mommy NOW!! Some of the people watching (including some of the testers) actually applauded a bit when she did that."
> 
> "another pit bull mix dog that was with us that day, paige, barked and lunged and kicked up the dust till the guy was gone, and she's not protection trained at all. she passed just fine, though. they actually want the dog to identify threatening behavior--your dog gets lower marks if it fails to respond at all, like doc."
> 
> pbf Red
> Personally I test only pit bulls I know are going to pass , mine or belonging to other people, because if a dog does not pass it hurts the breed statistics ( although it looks like they are not updating the numbers often).
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> The ATT does not prove Pits are not aggressive...it does not prove they are aggressive...the ATT simply proves that the pits tested act like the breed standard.
> 
> AMEN!


So where did you copy and paste the jaded, biased, article from?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

DJEtzel said:


> We're not talking about 1 or 2 of them though, we're talking about all of them as a whole, why would I only show one breed's statistics?
> 
> If we were somewhere debating shepherds and herding styles being unsafe, I would definitely dig up all of the shepherds- Australian, German, etc!



What is too funny is that this matches my previous post...

WHen we talk about pit attacks on the news, they are NOT pits! They are mixes!! But when we talk about the American Temperament Test, every and any pit looking dog is a pit so their score can be higher....hmmmmm


----------



## DJEtzel

Mrs.K said:


> Oh yeah? So don't you think it's unfair to dig up all the bully breeds and then add it all up against A SINGLE Breed? If you do that, you have to dig up ALL THE SHEPHERD BREEDS and add them up together and then compare the two.
> 
> Each breed has it's own statistic, view them as such.


I definitely did. That's why I listed each one individually. I added them all up for fun to see how they would compare.

I am showing people the comparison to the bully breeds we're talking about and the GSD that everyone here loves. That they are not that much different outside of the ghetto neighborhoods so many here live in.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

DJEtzel...I'm pretty sure you didn't read that entire thing and click all the links in four minutes....could you actually read it instead of denying everything I said??

Or could you respond to the accusations I made instead of deny, deny, deny. 

This is a debate....you can respond to any and all accusations I made because denying them all together is just not interesting and I can't debate back to "You are wrong"


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

PS:: HOw is that jaded or biased when I said this doesn't prove pits are aggressive or not? It just proves that SOME/MANY pit people try to cheat at the ATT and claim it proves something it does not.

Click the links I provided. How is that biased? Pit people typed that themselves on the internet for all to see.


----------



## DJEtzel

x0emiroxy0x said:


> What is too funny is that this matches my previous post...
> 
> WHen we talk about pit attacks on the news, they are NOT pits! They are mixes!! But when we talk about the American Temperament Test, every and any pit looking dog is a pit so their score can be higher....hmmmmm


They do not have a section in the ATTS for mixed breed dogs, so they go by the dominant breed in the dog.


----------



## Steelhead

There are two issues pit bulls have working against them:

1 - Since they are tough looking and the choice of dog for low income thugs (white, black, brown, yellow and orange thugs), they are bought by people who dont raise them properly and are not restrained properly and this leads to more attacks. The dog that is not cared for properly is more likely to bite than a certain breed.
2 - When a pit bull decides to attack it gets ugly because that is what they were bred for. I believe pit bulls account for the most deaths when it comes to dog attacks.

Actually I can see pit bulls being less likely to bite than a GSD and alot of dogs because when they were bred as fighters the handlers didnt want them to attack them in the pit so they were actually originally bred not to be agressive toward people.


----------



## selzer

To answer the OP's question, no, I would not let my dog play with a pit bull.

I do not let my dogs play with shepherds either, except under specific conditions, like, it is one of the pups I sold and the dogs know each other, etc. 

I do not see any reason why my dogs should play with dogs outside of my pack, be they pit bulls or labradors or spaniels or GSDs. My dog can play with ME -- that is better than another dog that might go well and might go ill. 

And, since I take them to classes and shows, I prefer my dogs to see other dogs and not react either positively: "let's play!!!" or negatively: "GET OFF MY PLANET!!!"

So, no, I would not let them play with a pit bull.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

I went a bit overboard earlier when I said muzzle all pitbulls. 

I have known some awesome ones...but all the ones that weren't awesome were terrible. There has been no middle ground in my experience.

I wish that all pits didn't have bad reps...but because 90% of the ones I have met have attacked my dog, another dog, or another person, I can't trust any of them  The statistic in my case is too high to risk it.

Would I ever own a pitbull? If it was a purebred from a reputable breeder that had never had one of the dogs they bred attack someone (not counting abusive owners or break ins) and I had no other dogs or children.

Not all pit bulls are bad...but too many are to not be scared.

I find that pure bred pits are not the bad ones in my case...it is the pit/bull dog mixes and bull dogs that are the worst. And the target looking dogs (remember the white dog with the target sign on his eye)

EDIT>>>>

I can't trust them if I meet them during a walk or at a park. If a friend I know has one and has taken it to training classes and I meet it first, I have no problem with Rocky playing with one. MY neighbor on the third floor has a pure bred pitbull, about 6 months, and it is honestly the sweetest dog I have ever met. My stepmom had a 70 pound pitbull/ mastiff mix that learned to sit and lay down when a stranger approached, automatically. (She didn't want to scare people). It would CRY to be pet! Such a sweet dog. Much better than their golden that bites me every time I go over.


----------



## CookieTN

Okiedoke. In my case most of the Pits I've come across were friendly.


----------



## chelle

GatorDog said:


> Well there is nothing that anyone can say to change anyones mind on this topic once they have already developed their opinion, clearly. So I guess I am done here.


No, you couldn't get anyone to say, gee, hey GatorDog you're right, let me go shoot myself for being so wrong, so you're done. 

What am I supposed to change my mind about? What do you want to hear?



DJEtzel said:


> Let's check out some statistics here...
> 
> ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.
> 
> Oh, jeez... pit bulls passed more temperament tests than GSDs did as of March of last year in the US. Does that mean that the GSDs should all be muzzled in public?
> 
> *What you guys aren't getting and are being close minded about, is that your area is BAD, the WORST, and isn't how things go everywhere.* In MY neighborhood, I have to worry about labradoodles and small dogs attacking me and my GSD, but *I don't hate all of them* because I know that it is the OWNERS being the issue in the dog's aggression towards me, even though I've NEVER met a well-behaved pet dog smaller than 20lbs. I've been bit, nipped, chased, and my dog has been attacked, but I'm certainly holding no grudge.


No, what YOU are not getting is that that IS how it is for some people. I will fully concede it is surely different in different areas, cities, regions. That's a given, isn't it? *You just can't seem to accept that pits can be a real menace in some places*. I'm glad your biggest problem is a Labradoodle. Bring on the Labradoodle. I'll cover my jugular.


----------



## GatorDog

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I went a bit overboard earlier when I said muzzle all pitbulls.
> 
> I have known some awesome ones...but all the ones that weren't awesome were terrible. There has been no middle ground in my experience.
> 
> I wish that all pits didn't have bad reps...but because 90% of the ones I have met have attacked my dog, another dog, or another person, I can't trust any of them  The statistic in my case is too high to risk it.
> 
> Would I ever own a pitbull? If it was a purebred from a reputable breeder that had never had one of the dogs they bred attack someone (not counting abusive owners or break ins) and I had no other dogs or children.
> 
> Not all pit bulls are bad...but too many are to not be scared.
> 
> I find that pure bred pits are not the bad ones in my case...it is the pit/bull dog mixes and bull dogs that are the worst. And the target looking dogs (remember the white dog with the target sign on his eye)


I really appreciate you saying that. I am truly, honestly sorry that you and your pup had to go through so many terrible experiences with those dogs. I understand why you can not trust them now. 

I wish you could meet my girl. She's just a love and would maybe be able to give you a better image of the breed. Granted, she isn't from a breeder, but she's a great dog nonetheless. 

On the flip-side, she is very closely monitored and does not socialize with any other dogs than the ones she lives with. I will not let her become a bad statistic. I wish more people felt the same way.


----------



## CookieTN

I don't think anyone is saying that Pit Bulls are never dangerous. But then I skimmed a bunch of pages.


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## x0emiroxy0x

gator, read my edit at the bottom of that post! That is the exact pit I wouldn't mind meeting. I guess I do come off as a "pit hater", but I promise I'm not! I just dislike when people deny that the breed does anything wrong. I don't believe the breed itself is bad...I believe that most pitbulls are bred by BYB and not socialized, just like my german shepherd. 

Thank god I have this forum and a trainer and books to help me through his fearfulness...I don't know if their is a pitbull site that helps owners with fearful or aggressive pits because they don't want to admit any are like that.


----------



## chicagojosh

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I went a bit overboard earlier when I said muzzle all pitbulls.
> 
> I have known some awesome ones...but all the ones that weren't awesome were terrible. There has been no middle ground in my experience.
> 
> I wish that all pits didn't have bad reps...but because 90% of the ones I have met have attacked my dog, another dog, or another person, I can't trust any of them  The statistic in my case is too high to risk it.
> 
> 
> Did you look at the temperment test results DJEtzel posted? our beloved GSD's are as likely to fail the temperment test as the various pit breeds...


----------



## GatorDog

chelle said:


> No, you couldn't get anyone to say, gee, hey GatorDog you're right, let me go shoot myself for being so wrong, so you're done.
> 
> What am I supposed to change my mind about? What do you want to hear?


Hmm, never asked anyone to go so overboard as to shoot themselves, but maybe if you could agree that generalizing a breed is wrong, that'd be a start. I'm sorry that the "ghetto" of your neighborhood is run by irresponsible pit owners and that it has clouded your judgement. Here in my "ghetto" of NY, I just have irresponsible PET owners in general, so the only things I have to judge are the owners, not a particular breed.


----------



## selzer

Did the question change since yesterday? 

I have had my dogs in classes with pits. Never had a problem with the pits. Now the labs, and the cattle dogs, the labradoodle, the shepherds, and the standard poodle...

I even had a leonberger go after one of my shepherd pups once, whoops! At a show a newfie went for Heidi. Dogs will be Dogs. So far, only one time when I was walking down the street a pit ran out of a house and tried to attack Arwen.


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## martemchik

Just want to put my two cents in, there is no DA portion to a temperment test, there isn't even a dog on the field when you do a test. So a pitbull passing a TT is completely understanable, as they are supposed to be very good with people, but if you threw a dog in there, I'd like to see how many pass.

I am also not saying that all pitbulls are DA, but there is a higher percentage of DA pitbulls than any other breed (I'm generalizing, but I think most of us will agree on this). There are tons that are very good with dogs and can get along with pretty much anything, but there is a high amount that can't. And I don't think there is any way of knowing the exact figure.

Maybe a CGC would be a better representation of the temperments? And even then, tons of people prepare and prepare for that one. I know classes around me that are centered around your dog getting the CGC and only train what the dog needs to know for those 10 tests.


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## x0emiroxy0x

chicagojosh, if you go to the official website for the american temperament test, it states that the test does NOT test aggression. It tests if your dogs fits the breed standard and that you cannot compare dogs of different breeds because they are all tested depending on their different standards.

A poodle that runs from a stranger will pass...a pit or german shepherd that runs from a stranger will not. A collie that is scared of an umbrella will not fail...while a german shepherd will because it is supposed to be curious, not fearful.


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## GatorDog

x0emiroxy0x said:


> gator, read my edit at the bottom of that post! That is the exact pit I wouldn't mind meeting. I guess I do come off as a "pit hater", but I promise I'm not! I just dislike when people deny that the breed does anything wrong. I don't believe the breed itself is bad...I believe that most pitbulls are bred by BYB and not socialized, just like my german shepherd.
> 
> Thank god I have this forum and a trainer and books to help me through his fearfulness...I don't know if their is a pitbull site that helps owners with fearful or aggressive pits because they don't want to admit any are like that.


I think what sucks the most about this whole thing is that there are just so many _more_ pits and pit mixes in most areas nowadays than any other breeds, so the chance of finding an aggressive one is way higher. I can't wait for the day that the "pit fad" dies off and people stop caring about breeding so many. Maybe then, true lovers of the breed can have a chance to fix it.


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## x0emiroxy0x

I honestly believe there are probably DOUBLE the pits in the US than any other larger breed. Check craigslist in ANY city.


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## GatorDog

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I honestly believe there are probably DOUBLE the pits in the US than any other larger breed. Check craigslist in ANY city.


It's so sad.  I saw one today and the listing had three pictures of the puppy they were trying to sell and it was sitting in a crate next to a pile of poop. Absolutely heartbreaking.


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## chicagojosh

pits are considered large breed? lol... i better do some reading


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## x0emiroxy0x

by larger breed, I meant not "purse dogs"....there seems to be an abundance of those!


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## misterW

GatorDog said:


> Hmm, never asked anyone to go so overboard as to shoot themselves, but maybe if you could agree that generalizing a breed is wrong, that'd be a start. I'm sorry that the "ghetto" of your neighborhood is run by irresponsible pit owners and that it has clouded your judgement. Here in my "ghetto" of NY, I just have irresponsible PET owners in general, so the only things I have to judge are the owners, not a particular breed.


I have to say, this is getting a bit comical. As far as I have seen in this thread, Chelle's main point is that pit bulls that are brought up improperly are dangerous. As an example, she pointed to the many improperly raised/trained pit bulls in her neighborhood. She has said many times that she is not saying EVERY pit bull is like that, and that it is likely that the pit bull advocates on this board have safe and well trained pits. 

On the other side, the pit bull advocates are saying that even if pit bulls have any kind of predisposition to dog aggression, how they are raised has a much larger impact on the dog's behavior. They suggest that the bad reputation of pits is caused by improperly raised dogs and point out that their own dogs are very well behaved. They then go on to yell at Chelle every few posts. 

Maybe I'm just dense, but I can't seem to figure out how these sides are much different from each other.


----------



## chelle

GatorDog said:


> Hmm, never asked anyone to go so overboard as to shoot themselves, but *maybe if you could agree that generalizing a breed is wrong,* that'd be a start. *I'm sorry that the "ghetto" of your neighborhood is run by irresponsible pit owners and that it has clouded your judgement. *Here in my "ghetto" of NY, I just have irresponsible PET owners in general, so the only things I have to judge are the owners, not a particular breed.


But, GatorDog, when, oh when, did *I* generalize? I thought I was very consistent and steadfastly sticking to "in my area" and "where I am" and similar. 

I don't live in the "ghetto" so to speak, but I drive thru it, as most people in a medium sized city do. I do have eyes. One of our company trucks ran over and killed a loose pit last year. It was running around with another pit and thankfully the second one didn't get hit... it was a very sad thing all around. 

My judgment isn't "clouded." Please don't insult me like that. I pay attention. I see what I see. I check the shelter's available dogs often and it is frequently overpopulated with pits. They are a "status symbol" of sorts for the "tough" crowd (call them gangs, even) around here. 

It is what it is. It is very sad. It is sad anytime stupid humans "ruin" a breed. Any breed. Now that's not to say *all* pits have been "ruined," but humans have sure had a strong hand in doing so to many of them.



martemchik said:


> .....I am also not saying that all pitbulls are DA, but there is a higher percentage of DA pitbulls than any other breed (I'm generalizing, but I think most of us will agree on this). There are tons that are very good with dogs and can get along with pretty much anything, but there is a high amount that can't. And I don't think there is any way of knowing the exact figure.


I think they are surely right up there on the more likely to be DA list. Especially *in areas* where this characteristic is specifically bred FOR.



GatorDog said:


> I think what sucks the most about this whole thing is that there are just so many _more_ pits and pit mixes in most areas nowadays than any other breeds, *so the chance of finding an aggressive one is way higher*. I can't wait for the day that the "pit fad" dies off and people stop caring about breeding so many. Maybe then, true lovers of the breed can have a chance to fix it.


This is basically all I've meant to say all along. 


I once loved Cocker Spaniels. They were almost completely ruined *in this area*. (I'm talking 20+ years ago.) Overbred like you've never seen. Practically all of them you'd meet were crazy, nervebag, barking biters. 

Now, around here, you're hard pressed to find a Cocker. I think they were so overbred and so many people got these nutty neurotic dogs, that the demand died and ... ownership of Cockers went waaay down. Still is down. Perhaps this is the best thing that could've happened for the Cocker Spaniel. I met one at the dogpark recently and almost fell in complete silly love with what a wonderful representation of the breed she was. (I think I said that on a post prior on this thread? Not sure, sorry if I repeated myself.)



GatorDog said:


> It's so sad.  I saw one today and the listing had three pictures of the puppy they were trying to sell and it was sitting in a crate next to a pile of poop. Absolutely heartbreaking.


IT IS heartbreaking!!!!!


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## mysweetkaos

Welcome to the forum As too the original question. I think if introduced properly and slowly you should get a sense of whether it's a good idea. Just be watchful and close (maybe even armed with a water hose) should things change directions. Pits like every other dog breed, I've seen good examples.....I've seen bad examples. I don't think it is as simple as lumping all of one into a category. That is just my opinion


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## Mrs.K

misterW said:


> I have to say, this is getting a bit comical. As far as I have seen in this thread, Chelle's main point is that pit bulls that are brought up improperly are dangerous. As an example, she pointed to the many improperly raised/trained pit bulls in her neighborhood. She has said many times that she is not saying EVERY pit bull is like that, and that it is likely that the pit bull advocates on this board have safe and well trained pits.
> 
> On the other side, the pit bull advocates are saying that even if pit bulls have any kind of predisposition to dog aggression, how they are raised has a much larger impact on the dog's behavior. They suggest that the bad reputation of pits is caused by improperly raised dogs and point out that their own dogs are very well behaved. They then go on to yell at Chelle every few posts.
> 
> Maybe I'm just dense, but I can't seem to figure out how these sides are much different from each other.


Eh...don't worry about it. It happens ALL the time on forums. It's a forum thing... people only read what they want to read and not whats actually written in black and white. Happens to the best of us. Sometimes you are just blind and just want to get that post out there, not actually really reading the post.


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## Stella's Mom

During the days that I was taking Stella to the dog park there were plenty of pit bulls there. Stella pretty much ignored them once she found the joy of chasing a ball.

The majority of the pitbulls at the park had responsible owners and the pitbulls were almost painfully submissive and sweet. There were a few that were a bit on the hyper side and if they were around equally hyper pits we left the park. If there were one or two submissive pits, it was not a problem.

I have found that the pits I met fell in 2 categories, sweet as sweet can be, or a bit rambunctious and a bit dog aggressive. The sweet ones were the pits that made me more aware that not every Pit is bad. Unfortunately, I also noticed the submissive ones, were almost too submissive even though their owners were sweet and loving with them. It was almost as though they did not know how to just be confident and hang out. I felt sad for those dogs because in the wrong owners hands they would be used as bait dogs.


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## GatorDog

Chelle, maybe I misunderstood your postings. I just took it as sort of a "pit owners are ignorant young men using them for fighting or protection" sort of approach. I know thats how it is in a lot of places, but there are also a few other places where pits are just seen as regular dogs still, and one of them is in my home.

Here, I walk down the street with my GSD, Aiden, and see people run to the other side of the road to avoid him. And the same people on a different day will come over and smush on my pit, Penny, without any hesitation. =/

So I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I took your comments as a generalization on the breed based on your personal experiences and really wish there was something I could do to make you feel otherwise.


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## Lesley1905

This is ironic...I signed onto facebook a couple of minutes ago and a friend of mine had posted this link. I know the question was about how pits with other dogs, but I had to share:

FOR OVER ONE HUNDRED YEARS AMERICANS KNEW PIT BULLS FOR WHAT THEY DID BEST. BABYSITTING. | Yonah Ward Grossman


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## chelle

GatorDog said:


> Chelle, maybe I misunderstood your postings. *I just took it as sort of a "pit owners are ignorant young men using them for fighting or protection" sort of approach*. I know thats how it is in a lot of places, but there are also a few other places where pits are just seen as regular dogs still, and one of them is in my home.
> 
> Here, I walk down the street with my GSD, Aiden, and see people run to the other side of the road to avoid him. And the same people on a different day will come over and smush on my pit, Penny, without any hesitation. =/
> 
> So I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I took your comments as a generalization on the breed based on your personal experiences and really wish there was something I could do to make you feel otherwise.


Thank you, GatorDog. I have no doubt in my mind you love your baby dearly and that he/she(?) is a wonderful dog. I have no doubt a great number of pitties are wonderful dogs. If I had a single wish, it would be that those pitties were owned by people like yourself, who care so deeply for the breed. The people who breed for fighting and/or dump them in a yard to protect don't truly care about the *breed*. THAT is what gets me upset. Those dogs are absolutely not good representations of the breed, but sadly, it's what many people see and hear about. People who properly care for and train their pits are not the ones that make the news stories. The pits bred for aggression, who go on to attack, are the ones in the news. You pit owners *are* up against a lot to turn that perception around. I guess I can understand, then, why that might raise your defensiveness.? You're getting it from all sides, while you're the ones being responsible and enjoying the best characteristics of your breed. 

I wouldn't "run" across the street to avoid you. I'd probably go off to the side, put my dog in a sit, and keep a safe distance. But then again, I'd do the same with any dog we didn't know. 

I love dogs. I love them more than humans, in most cases. I'd love to meet your dog. Where my fears come from are far more about protecting my own dog. I know those pits are tough and can fight like no other. That does scare me. As my male mutt comes into maturity, he may try to challenge. I don't think he'd stand a chance against a pit intent on a fight. Since so many of those DA pits are prevalent here, it puts me on edge. This is truly not any kind of generalization on pits -- it is truly and deeply nothing more than wanting to keep my baby boy Bailey safe and sound.

And I apologize as well if I came off as being anti-pit. I'm not anti-anything. I'm just pro-Bailey.  (Ok, that's a small white lie.. I don't hate, but I really do not care for dachshunds.)


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

First of all I would not feel comfortable letting my dog be around any dog, of any breed, that A) I did not know B) I did not know the owner C) I did not trust the owner's judgment or D) Any combination of the above. 

In general I am a little wary of pitbulls when it comes to other dogs (not so much people, or at least not any more so than I would be of any strange dog) because DA has been purposely bred into the breed. I know that there are pitbulls that are not this way, and if I trusted the owner's judgement then I would have no problem with it. I actually think pitbulls are adorable and when I own my own place I would like to either adopt a dog friendly pitbull to be Sasha's buddy or get one when it could be an only dog. 

I think with any breed that is generally considered "tough" (GSD's included in this) I am always a little cautious because those dogs, through no fault of their own, have a tendency to attract people that are looking for a "scary dog". As most of us know a GSD or any other such breed can be a dangerous dog in the wrong hands. 

Long story short knowing the owner and trusting them is the #1 most important thing for me. A responsible owner who really knows their dog is not going to put their dog or mine at risk. This is why Sasha has very few playmates, because I trust far fewer people than I do dogs lol


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

chelle said:


> I'm not anti-anything. I'm just pro-Bailey.


As you should be. Being politically correct is far less important than protecting your baby.


----------



## DJEtzel

chelle said:


> No, what YOU are not getting is that that IS how it is for some people. I will fully concede it is surely different in different areas, cities, regions. That's a given, isn't it? *You just can't seem to accept that pits can be a real menace in some places*. I'm glad your biggest problem is a Labradoodle. Bring on the Labradoodle. I'll cover my jugular.


I can fully accept that. But why can these people like you and other "pit bashers" on the board, not understand that this isn't true for every pit bull and give them the benefit of the chance as a BREED. And say something like, I would not let my dog meet a pit bull here because THIS is how it is here, however if I were in a different area, it may change. 

You're just not giving the thought of them a chance, period. Which is completely unfair.


----------



## Dainerra

Some pits can be a real menace. GSDs are known to be same-sex aggressive and a GSD is a much bigger dog than the average pit.

I don't let my boys around dogs I don't know or trust their behavior. There are pits that I would happily let my boys play with and poodles that I won't.
I don't let Rayden play with Odie, the pit behind me. But that is because Rayden dislikes him and would kill him in a second.


----------



## chelle

DJEtzel said:


> I can fully accept that. But why can *these people like you* and *other "pit bashers*" on the board, not understand that *this isn't true for every pit bull* and *give them the benefit of the chance as a BREED.* And say something like, I would not let my dog meet a pit bull here because THIS is how it is here, however if I were in a different area, it may change.
> 
> You're just not giving the thought of them a chance, period. Which is completely unfair.


Have you read thru the posts? I really did think this thing was basically put to bed. I don't understand why you're still angry. If you've read the posts and still deem me to be a "basher," then so be it. I've done everything I possibly can to explain my position and it isn't worth any more time in trying to do so. Believe about me what you wish to.

I am NOT a pit-basher. I might be a dachshund dis-liker person, because I've met many and never a single one that was nice.. but I digress...

Admittedly, it is a big pet peeve of mine when a person charges into a thread without taking the time to read the previous posts. I am making that assumption about you right now, but I could be wrong. If you've read the posts and *still* believe as you do, then I suppose we are at odds that cannot be resolved.


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## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x- Your posts about Pits come off as ignorant and rude. As someone who volunteers at a shelter where there are Pitbulls and Pit Mixes, I found them offensive, epecially calling those who like pits, the Pitbull cult and mock us and make fun of us. I do NOT deny that Pitbulls & Pit Mixes are known to be dog aggressive. I do NOT deny that there are alot of bad representations of the breed out there, BUT that does NOT mean all are. The Temperament test DOES do something for the breed. It shows the people who do indeed think that Pitbulls are evil man eating machines, that they are the opposite. Also, the dogs who were apart of Vick's dog fighting ring, many if not all were bred to fight, BUT they were able to be rehabilitated and adopted out, and some even became therapy dogs. Even though it doesn't test for aggression, it still shows that Pitbulls and Pit Mixes are stable dogs. There are MANY people who think ALL pits and pit mixes are unstable and uncontrollable. And that is not true. 

That temperament test does help show that Pitbulls and Pit mixes are good dogs. I have met more good pits than bad ones, BUT I am NOT denying that is how it is everywhere. I am NOT denying that pitbulls aren't known to be dog aggressive.BUT not all are dog aggressive. Some pits are indeed not dog aggressive, as I have experienced and seen. I have had pitbulls play with my dogs and had NO ISSUES at all. I have seen people who own Pitbulls and dogs of other breeds and have NO issues(Gatordog & 4TheDawgies are great examples).


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## Mrs.K

Lesley1905 said:


> This is ironic...I signed onto facebook a couple of minutes ago and a friend of mine had posted this link. I know the question was about how pits with other dogs, but I had to share:
> 
> FOR OVER ONE HUNDRED YEARS AMERICANS KNEW PIT BULLS FOR WHAT THEY DID BEST. BABYSITTING. | Yonah Ward Grossman



Did you read this one yet?
YOU’RE FACING A GERMAN SHEPHERD, A ROTTWEILER, A DOBERMAN PINSCHER, AND A PIT BULL… | Yonah Ward Grossman*

Nice job calling our German Shepherd an ATTACK DOG! 
Shepherds are bred to WORK and not to attack, period! 
*


----------



## MountainGSDs

You would think that with all the discussion on the board about genetics and breeding and how it affects temperament, aggression and nerves how much harm the "it's not the breed it's the owner" group are doing to their cause.


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## MountainGSDs

Lesley1905 said:


> This is ironic...I signed onto facebook a couple of minutes ago and a friend of mine had posted this link. I know the question was about how pits with other dogs, but I had to share:
> 
> FOR OVER ONE HUNDRED YEARS AMERICANS KNEW PIT BULLS FOR WHAT THEY DID BEST. BABYSITTING. | Yonah Ward Grossman


These articles would be aplicable if we were talking well bred and meeting their breed standard. The vast majority are not well bred and many are mixed breed.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

MountainGSDs said:


> These articles would be aplicable if we were talking well bred and meeting their breed standard. The vast majority are not well bred and many are mixed breed.


Or if this topic was "Would you feel comfortable letting your _child_ around a pit?" The breed has it's pros and cons just like any other breed. The pros would be that a well bred pit should show no human aggression. That's an amazing trait to pass on, and one of the reasons that I am not necessarily afraid of a pit as soon as I see one. A con would be that they have been bred to be DA, they were supposed to be and so many are; it's just a part of their make up, not all, but many. To ignore that actually hurts them more than it helps them. One shouldn't stick their head in the sand and pretend like things that are true aren't; it puts others at risk. (that was not geared toward anyone in particular, just a general thought). 

If someone came on here and said that they got a dog from a rescue or breeder that had told them that all GSDs loved strangers, and then their dog ripped into a mail man or whatever, everyone would be up in arms about how it's not in their nature to be friendly with strangers (not that they should rip apart the mail man, but that aloof characteristic with a dog that isn't socialized can transform into something more serious). They would call the breeder/rescue negligent. The same holds true with people that try to say that pits are a breed that loves other dogs. That simply hasn't traditionally been the case. I know there are some, there are also some GSDs that would sooner lick a stranger to death than bark at them, but to say that all or even most are that way seems to be very foolish and doesn't do any favors to the breed.

Hope that makes sense, it's 5:35 AM here and I really should go to bed


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## kitmcd

Mrs.K said:


> Did you read this one yet?
> YOU’RE FACING A GERMAN SHEPHERD, A ROTTWEILER, A DOBERMAN PINSCHER, AND A PIT BULL… | Yonah Ward Grossman*
> 
> Here's the line I like best: "Most of these people are unfit to own a goldfish and a 60 lb. dog bred to fight is like a loaded gun in their hands." Which in my opinion applies to many dog owners of many breeds.*


----------



## jetscarbie

This thread has definitely made me think about pits.

I think there is evil people in the world.....and those are the people that ruin dogs. They are not "dog" people. They are the ones that have dogs for the specific reasons...like fighting.

Reminds me of a youtube video I watched before. It was in another country....and these dog owners would take their dogs to a park like setting with the purpose of testing these dog's to fight other dogs. These were not pits but Caucasian Ovcharka (sp??). For some reason, I ended up on a breeders site....and they had posted lots of youtubes of their dogs fighting different breeds. Made my stomach sick.

While I was writing this.....I decided to look up more information. I just knew it! They are starting to sell these dogs in the USA. There are even breeders in the USA now.

It's my opinion....another breed will replace the pit's in the news. Lots of people want special dogs that nobody else has. I remember when the president got his dog and the sales of that breed skyrocketed. I know I had never heard of that breed before. I think that was the #1 search on yahoo and google for about 1 mth afterwards.


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## ozzymama

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> Or if this topic was "Would you feel comfortable letting your _child_ around a pit?"



See my answer would be no. My kid isn't around my own dogs without me right there. Helicopter mom, maybe. My sister bought a corgi - great little dog, adopted from the breeder when he wasn't showing anymore, I don't let him around my kid without me in between them.
I'm the mom who picks up her child when a dog comes on the playground until I assess if the owner has a clue. I might look at a dog and their owner, remark to the baby nice dog, but we walk on.
Since Oz's diagnosis almost 3 years ago now, I can't let him around other dogs, it was only this month I decided Dolly could play with him more, until that point, I called off play immediately. I don't need a lame dog, vet visit or pain killers if I can avoid it for him.


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## Marnie

Mrs K, thank you for posting that link. It makes sense that if there are 5 times more pitbulls out there than GSD or Rots, the percentage of bites would be proportional. The argument that Rots, Dobes and GSD tend to be more expensive, therefore better taken care of, is a good one also. It is also a good argument that small dogs bit more often than large ones, they just don't do much damage.

There have been so many headlines about pits. Just before Thanksgiving, we had a horrible tragedy here where a woman suffered a seizure and her own pitbull attacked and killed her. The television was full of interviews with a construction worker who rushed in with a shovel to help the woman but retreated screaming that the woman's face was completely gone. Very, very dramatic news that frightened and inflamed all the anti-pit sentiment. 

Personally, I'm not afraid of dogs but neither do I trust any of them 100%. My own dog is crated if children are visiting. If strangers or strange dogs enter my yard, my hand is firmly on my GSD's collar. I've always had rough collies and they were by far the worst biters but their bite was never more than a torn trouser or a pinch on the leg. My last GSD, on the other hand, proved he meant to do serious harm when he attacked a thief in my barn who made the mistake of kicking my little female collie.


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## GregK

Marnie said:


> My last GSD, on the other hand, proved he meant to do serious harm when he attacked a thief in my barn who made the mistake of kicking my little female collie.


 
WHAT!!!!????? He kicked your collie!!!???? 

I hope your boy ripped the scum-sucking thief a new one!!!!!!!


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## x0emiroxy0x

In response to a post made to me on the previous page--

I do not think all put owners are part of the cut following. The ones that deny deny deny are... As you just stated, you don't deny anything. Therefore you aren't part of the cult. I never said ever pit owner is.

Also, please go to the ATT website!!!! They specifically say this is not a test of aggression. It tests if a dog fits the breed standard. This test has done nothing for pits... Pitbull OWNERS have lied about what the test is testing for and spread info that more pits pass than any dog.... 

Can you please read all my posts, not just the first one, before you comment. This issue was resolved until you posted without reading all posts.


----------



## Steelhead

I dont treat pit bulls any differently than i would treat a rottweiler, german shepherd, doberman, even german shorthaired pointers are not known to be great around strange kids/dogs.

I always watched my dog closely and tried to avoid small dogs and kids because you never know. I would let adults pet the dog but when kids came over I would not, not worth the liability for me. The probelm is alot of people think their dog wont harm a fly or are a big teddy bear but they are still animals. Someone takes a certain posture over them they might freak out for a split second and bite. People try and humanize them, but they are not human, they are still animals. Heck, even the nicest person can have a bad day and lash out once in a while.

I always have to laugh when people say, well chihuhuas, poodles, border collies bite, all dogs should be treated the same, GSDs or pits shouldnt be singled out. But small dogs dont cause near the damage of a large dog and an adult can easily break up a biting small dog.


----------



## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> Some pits can be a real menace. GSDs are known to be same-sex aggressive and a GSD is a much bigger dog than the average pit.
> 
> I don't let my boys around dogs I don't know or trust their behavior. There are pits that I would happily let my boys play with and poodles that I won't.
> I don't let Rayden play with Odie, the pit behind me. But that is because Rayden dislikes him and would kill him in a second.


Rayden is a GSD? And you think he would kill the pit bull? 

Your Rayden must be quite a fighter! probably good that you keep him away from the pit. And also from all other dogs!


----------



## Lesley1905

Mrs.K said:


> Did you read this one yet?
> YOU’RE FACING A GERMAN SHEPHERD, A ROTTWEILER, A DOBERMAN PINSCHER, AND A PIT BULL… | Yonah Ward Grossman
> 
> *Nice job calling our German Shepherd an ATTACK DOG! *
> *Shepherds are bred to WORK and not to attack, period! *


I'm glad thats what you think I was trying to do, call "our" shepherds attack dogs when posting that other article on pitbulls. *Seriously??????* And no, I did not read that one until just now. I don't agree with what that person is saying about German Shepherds at all. If I did, I dont think I would be on this board.


----------



## Lesley1905

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> Or if this topic was "Would you feel comfortable letting your _child_ around a pit?" The breed has it's pros and cons just like any other breed. The pros would be that a well bred pit should show no human aggression. That's an amazing trait to pass on, and one of the reasons that I am not necessarily afraid of a pit as soon as I see one. A con would be that they have been bred to be DA, they were supposed to be and so many are; it's just a part of their make up, not all, but many. To ignore that actually hurts them more than it helps them. One shouldn't stick their head in the sand and pretend like things that are true aren't; it puts others at risk. (that was not geared toward anyone in particular, just a general thought).
> 
> If someone came on here and said that they got a dog from a rescue or breeder that had told them that all GSDs loved strangers, and then their dog ripped into a mail man or whatever, everyone would be up in arms about how it's not in their nature to be friendly with strangers (not that they should rip apart the mail man, but that aloof characteristic with a dog that isn't socialized can transform into something more serious). They would call the breeder/rescue negligent. The same holds true with people that try to say that pits are a breed that loves other dogs. That simply hasn't traditionally been the case. I know there are some, there are also some GSDs that would sooner lick a stranger to death than bark at them, but to say that all or even most are that way seems to be very foolish and doesn't do any favors to the breed.
> 
> Hope that makes sense, it's 5:35 AM here and I really should go to bed


Yes your right, but I even said that when I posted the article "I know this thread has to do with pits and other dogs, but I thought I would share this article"


----------



## codmaster

Steelhead said:


> I dont treat pit bulls any differently than i would treat a rottweiler, german shepherd, doberman, even german shorthaired pointers are not known to be great around strange kids/dogs.
> 
> I always watched my dog closely and tried to avoid small dogs and kids because you never know. I would let adults pet the dog but when kids came over I would not, not worth the liability for me. The probelm is alot of people think their dog wont harm a fly or are a big teddy bear but they are still animals. Someone takes a certain posture over them they might freak out for a split second and bite. People try and humanize them, but they are not human, they are still animals. Heck, even the nicest person can have a bad day and lash out once in a while.
> 
> I always have to laugh when people say, well chihuhuas, poodles, border collies bite, all dogs should be treated the same, GSDs or pits shouldnt be singled out. But small dogs dont cause near the damage of a large dog and an adult can easily break up a biting small dog.


 
How about a Seeing Eye dog (GSD) - guess you wouldn't trust them either?


BTW, ever try to break up a fight between a couple of *small* terriers? (NOT easy even for an "adult"!)


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> Did you read this one yet?
> YOU’RE FACING A GERMAN SHEPHERD, A ROTTWEILER, A DOBERMAN PINSCHER, AND A PIT BULL… | Yonah Ward Grossman
> 
> *Nice job calling our German Shepherd an ATTACK DOG! *
> *Shepherds are bred to WORK and not to attack, period! *


 
Thanks for sharing the article - an interesting set of doggy opinions, heh?

Just proves once again that anyone can do an article on anything and see it get onto the web. No knowledge or facts are required - just opinions.

Like this one!


----------



## Steelhead

codmaster said:


> How about a Seeing Eye dog (GSD) - guess you wouldn't trust them either?
> 
> They are still animals. You cant say 100%.
> 
> BTW, ever try to break up a fight between a couple of *small* terriers? (NOT easy even for an "adult"!)


Yes I have and it is no comparison to two large dogs. Are you one of those people?


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Rayden is a GSD? And you think he would kill the pit bull?
> 
> Your Rayden must be quite a fighter! probably good that you keep him away from the pit. And also from all other dogs!


You seem to think that all pit bulls are great fighters or dog aggressive in general. A GSD is a lot larger than a pit and typically has a lot more jaw pressure. If the GSD is DA and the pit is not, I would expect a GSD to beat or kill a Pit Bull in a dog fight in an instant. 

Just because Pit Bulls have been bred to fight, does not mean that all of them carry genes to be aggressive, whether it is outright like DA or in a fight to defend themselves. I know plenty of Pit Bulls (large and small, male and female) that have gotten hurt by mutts, were losing fights, were attacked, etc. and would not have won. And these are like-sized mutts. I've never seen or heard of a fight with a dog much larger than a pit.


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## Falkosmom

http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf

The breeds most likely to kill


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## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf
> 
> The breeds most likely to kill


Unfortunately (and I'm going to sound like the pit bull cultist) these statistics are all based off of what the animal controls, humane societies, and SPCA's label the dog as. 

And over half the time, they are wrong. I know this because I have a firm grasp of breed traits and characteristics physically and socially, and have worked in shelters where the management could not tell the difference between a pit and a lab, a rottweiler and a mutt. I have also requested pictures of "pit bulls" from local animal controls when there are attacks or maulings, or deaths by them. Sometimes they ARE pit bulls. Sometimes they are lab mixes, or just small mutts that have no indication of pit bull in them at all, yet the AC lists them as pit bulls because that is their breed guess. 

Any dog with a square head, short hair, and muscle is a pit bull, any dog with the tan points is a rottie. 

Check out these Rotties, for instance...



















Oh, and this Smooth Coated Fox Terrier...









Looks an awfully lot like a pit bull mix to me, huh?

Just goes to show ya.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> You seem to think that all pit bulls are great fighters or dog aggressive in general. A GSD is a lot larger than a pit and typically has a lot more jaw pressure. If the GSD is DA and the pit is not, I would expect a GSD to beat or kill a Pit Bull in a dog fight in an instant.
> 
> Just because Pit Bulls have been bred to fight, does not mean that all of them carry genes to be aggressive, whether it is outright like DA or in a fight to defend themselves. I know plenty of Pit Bulls (large and small, male and female) that have gotten hurt by mutts, were losing fights, were attacked, etc. and would not have won. And these are like-sized mutts. I've never seen or heard of a fight with a dog much larger than a pit.


My adult GSD is easily over a 100# and tall. He is a big goofball that loves to play with dogs and other animals. He has always been a target for pits because of his good nature. The DA pits I have observed always choose puppies, old dogs, submissive ones or non DA dogs as their victims. 

On the other hand, my eight month old pup is extremely leash reactive with dogs and pits NEVER bother him. They will eye up my older male when we encounter them, but will not approach him because of the puppy.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> My adult GSD is easily over a 100# and tall. He is a big goofball that loves to play with dogs and other animals. He has always been a target for pits because of his good nature. The DA pits I have observed always choose puppies, old dogs, submissive ones or non DA dogs as their victims.
> 
> On the other hand, my eight month old pup is extremely leash reactive with dogs and pits NEVER bother him. They will eye up my older male when we encounter them, but will not approach him because of the puppy.


I'm not sure what you're trying to prove??


----------



## Falkosmom

You stated:" I've never seen or heard of a fight with a dog much larger than a pit." 

My dog is 29.5" at the shoulders and 113#s. Pits love to attack him, and he is much larger than them...
... that is if I understood you correctly in what you were trying to say.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> You stated:" I've never seen or heard of a fight with a dog much larger than a pit."
> 
> My dog is 29.5" at the shoulders and 113#s. Pits love to attack him, and he is much larger than them...
> ... that is if I understood you correctly in what you were trying to say.


Oh, I wasn't saying that I don't think they happen, I was saying that I haven't seen one personally to know how they go, I just know that smaller dogs can definitely have a way with pits if they mean business and the pit doesn't. As with just about any breed.


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## misterW

Where exactly does this "German Shepherds exert more jaw pressure than Pits" idea come from? Because looking at the musculature on the heads of both dogs, its certainly not the obvious conclusion that one would draw. Again, it seems like saying that body builders actually bench press less than the average person. Never seen a case where muscle size is not strongly correlated with strength. 

I have seen one study mentioned by others that had so many bizarre aspects to it that the study appeared to be fairly worthless. 

Where does this idea come from?


----------



## DJEtzel

misterW said:


> Where exactly does this "German Shepherds exert more jaw pressure than Pits" idea come from? Because looking at the musculature on the heads of both dogs, its certainly not the obvious conclusion that one would draw. Again, it seems like saying that body builders actually bench press less than the average person. Never seen a case where muscle size is not strongly correlated with strength.
> 
> I have seen one study mentioned by others that had so many bizarre aspects to it that the study appeared to be fairly worthless.
> 
> Where does this idea come from?


The idea comes from facts. You can look up many charts online displaying the bite pressures from each breed. On average, GSDs have a stronger bite pressure than Pit Bull types.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> You seem to think that all pit bulls are great fighters or dog aggressive in general. A GSD is a lot larger than a pit and typically has a lot more jaw pressure. If the GSD is DA and the pit is not, I would expect a GSD to beat or kill a Pit Bull in a dog fight in an instant.
> 
> Just because Pit Bulls have been bred to fight, does not mean that all of them carry genes to be aggressive, whether it is outright like DA or in a fight to defend themselves. I know plenty of Pit Bulls (large and small, male and female) that have gotten hurt by mutts, were losing fights, were attacked, etc. and would not have won. And these are like-sized mutts. I've never seen or heard of a fight with a dog much larger than a pit.


A Pro trainer once told me that a Pit bull in a fight against most other breeds is like a professional boxer against a normal man - want to bet on who wins? Even if the "normal regular" guy is a lot bigger? 

Just so you know, one of the traits bred in fighting pit bulls is a great tolerance to pain where they could continue to fight hard even if greatly hurt, unlike most other breeds.

Of course a pit bull could get hurt or attacked by another breed of dog, and how do you know they "wouldn't have won" had the fight continued? Did you watch the fight to the end?

BTW, could you clarify your use of the word "plenty" in saying how many pits that you personally have seen being in a fight with another breed? Are you talking 5, or 10, or 20, or 30, or more? 

You know, it almost sounds like you might have been involved somehow in dog fighting? Or maybe just were in a really prolific dog fighting area, perhaps? 

I can only remember 2 or 3 dog fights that I have seen personally and these were very brief encounters. So I guess that you do have a lot more experience than I do with actually seeing pit bulls being attacked by other breeds and coming out the worse the wear for it.

I do remember one fairly recent encounter with a friends male GSD who weighed about 85 lbs and was about 2.5-3yo at the time, who was attacked in a parking lot by a medium sized male pit and was very definetly getting the worst of the fight when fortunately the pit owner broke it up before the pit could get a solid bite. Don't think that this particular GSD would have been one of the real tough ones that you describe had the fight been allowed to continue.

Have a nice day!


----------



## misterW

DJEtzel said:


> The idea comes from facts. You can look up many charts online displaying the bite pressures from each breed. On average, GSDs have a stronger bite pressure than Pit Bull types.


Yeah, but just because a chart is posted on-line doesn't mean it is actually true -- as I'm sure you know. I am curious, because a discussion on a different forum of this same topic led to a single study which seemed riddled with inconsistencies. And, a quick look around didn't turn up anything else. I could see it being somewhat difficult to study the topic -- after all, aside from the biting muscles, motivation is going to play a huge role in the data, and that could send the numbers all over the place. It has been very difficult to gauge the strength of various primates for that same reason -- how do you get the ape to REALLY show what it can do? So, anyway, do you know what study you are drawing your information from?


----------



## mysweetkaos

Dog Bite Force: Myths, Misinterpretations and Realities | Psychology Today

Found it interesting....


----------



## misterW

See, here's something along the lines of what I'm talking about: 

National Geographic did a bite test and found that..." the APBT (which DID appear to be biting that sleeve for all it was worth, a good “full-mouth” bite) managed only 127 p.s.i, just seven pounds more than the HUMAN tested!"

I mean, come on now, something is obviously not right here. I've seen a pitbull demolish a sapling as thick as my arm in a few minutes. I didn't realize that apparently I could have given that pit a run for its money myself.


----------



## Dainerra

codmaster said:


> Rayden is a GSD? And you think he would kill the pit bull?
> 
> Your Rayden must be quite a fighter! probably good that you keep him away from the pit. And also from all other dogs!


Well rayden weighs about 95 lbs. Odie, MAYBE 45. Rayden hates Odies guts and gets agitated if he even smells that Odie has been on the yard. Plus, Odie is extremely submissive to other dogs.

So, yeah, it probably wouldn't be a fair fight. Has nothing to do with breed or anything else, just the 2 particular dogs involved.

Ps, you do know that pitbulls are actually pretty small dogs, right?


----------



## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> Well rayden weighs about 95 lbs. Odie, MAYBE 45. Rayden hates Odies guts and gets agitated if he even smells that Odie has been on the yard. Plus, Odie is extremely submissive to other dogs.
> 
> So, yeah, it probably wouldn't be a fair fight. Has nothing to do with breed or anything else, just the 2 particular dogs involved.
> 
> *Ps, you do know that pitbulls are actually pretty small dogs, right?*




*Actually, I really don't know that pits are "pretty small dogs".*

*See the following -*
"The *American Pit Bull Terrier* (*APBT*) is a *medium-sized*, solidly built, short haired dog whose early ancestors came from England and Ireland." (just to bring you a little information about the breed)

So your BIG GSD could beat up a very submissive pit. Congrats!

Think he could do the same to an average Pit bull from fighting stock? (Just a hint, before you decide to try him - I suggest getting some really good pet insurance!)

BTW - *How many pit dog fights with other breeds did you say that you had actually seen, esp. the ones where the pit was losing?* I did not see that in your answer.

Would the missing number be ONE? Your big GSD against a single very submissive pit. Just a guess on my part since you didn't seem to answer.


----------



## Dainerra

I don't even know what you were talking about. I was illustrating the point that it depends on the dogs involved whether or not they would be allowed to play with each other.

I really don't know why he dislikes Odie so much. I think it's because he is so crazy submissive that he is annoying. I said that is why I don't let them play together. Singe plays with Odie on a regular basis and they get along great. Rayden just hates him. Rayden has other dogs that he plays with and there is no problem and he loves to see them. 

I never said I saw ANY fights between pits and other dogs. You are confusing my posts with someone elses.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

It was brought up that pitbulls were bred to fight even though pain. 

I have 18 week old puppies who don't know what pain is... Extreme pain tolerance. Both through genetics and my own personal way of raising puppies.

German shepherds ate SUPPOSED to also fight through pain with protection work.

I have my white German shepherd, who despite her bizarre and sporadic BYB type pedigree, has a very intense pain tolerance. She has hypothyroidism and before she was diagnosed struggled from severe dog aggression. She attacked my pitbull. 

Cost me $800 in damage on my pitbulls forehead. The vets and I thought she wouldn't even grow hair on her head from the damage and scar tissue. The wound was beginning to get necrotic and we had to remove a lot of it. 

I might have images on my computer at home to show you. 

My pitbull lost BAD to my 60lb GSD. GSD walked away with nothing but a scratch. 

Pitvulls are not magically the skill of a boxer compared to an average guy as the analogy was made.

I have a very lean and muscular pitbull too. 

So no pitbulls are not magically better at fighting. That is taught through training, raising, and accidental or not reinforcement of the behavior


----------



## GatorDog

4TheDawgies said:


> It was brought up that pitbulls were bred to fight even though pain.
> 
> I have 18 week old puppies who don't know what pain is... Extreme pain tolerance. Both through genetics and my own personal way of raising puppies.
> 
> German shepherds ate SUPPOSED to also fight through pain with protection work.
> 
> I have my white German shepherd, who despite her bizarre and sporadic BYB type pedigree, has a very intense pain tolerance. She has hypothyroidism and before she was diagnosed struggled from severe dog aggression. She attacked my pitbull.
> 
> Cost me $800 in damage on my pitbulls forehead. The vets and I thought she wouldn't even grow hair on her head from the damage and scar tissue. The wound was beginning to get necrotic and we had to remove a lot of it.
> 
> I might have images on my computer at home to show you.
> 
> My pitbull lost BAD to my 60lb GSD. GSD walked away with nothing but a scratch.
> 
> Pitvulls are not magically the skill of a boxer compared to an average guy as the analogy was made.
> 
> I have a very lean and muscular pitbull too.
> 
> So no pitbulls are not magically better at fighting. That is taught through training, raising, and accidental or not reinforcement of the behavior


:thumbup:


----------



## Lesley1905

4TheDawgies said:


> It was brought up that pitbulls were bred to fight even though pain.
> 
> I have 18 week old puppies who don't know what pain is... Extreme pain tolerance. Both through genetics and my own personal way of raising puppies.
> 
> German shepherds ate SUPPOSED to also fight through pain with protection work.
> 
> I have my white German shepherd, who despite her bizarre and sporadic BYB type pedigree, has a very intense pain tolerance. She has hypothyroidism and before she was diagnosed struggled from severe dog aggression. She attacked my pitbull.
> 
> Cost me $800 in damage on my pitbulls forehead. The vets and I thought she wouldn't even grow hair on her head from the damage and scar tissue. The wound was beginning to get necrotic and we had to remove a lot of it.
> 
> I might have images on my computer at home to show you.
> 
> My pitbull lost BAD to my 60lb GSD. GSD walked away with nothing but a scratch.
> 
> Pitvulls are not magically the skill of a boxer compared to an average guy as the analogy was made.
> 
> I have a very lean and muscular pitbull too.
> 
> So no pitbulls are not magically better at fighting. That is taught through training, raising, and accidental or not reinforcement of the behavior


:happyboogie:

I agree! Even in the human world this is the same. Just because some guy is big, doesnt mean he's going to be a butt kicker. Sometimes the people that look muscular and lean, turn out to be the worst fighters of them all.


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## 4TheDawgies

Ninas head right after the fight. The green is from the tattoo ink that spread everywhere from getting her wet to wash off blood 

It was a MESS

And all stitched up with a drain


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Just so you know, one of the traits bred in fighting pit bulls is a great tolerance to pain where they could continue to fight hard even if greatly hurt, unlike most other breeds.


I had no idea... 



> Of course a pit bull could get hurt or attacked by another breed of dog, and how do you know they "wouldn't have won" had the fight continued? Did you watch the fight to the end?


I have seen numerous (2 or 3) fights finish to the end (when the dogs seperated on their own or killed the other), or have seen the dogs after the fact (5?) when the owners rush the dogs to us thinking we could help. 



> BTW, could you clarify your use of the word "plenty" in saying how many pits that you personally have seen being in a fight with another breed? Are you talking 5, or 10, or 20, or 30, or more?
> 
> You know, it almost sounds like you might have been involved somehow in dog fighting? Or maybe just were in a really prolific dog fighting area, perhaps?


I have SEEN 5 or 6 different pit bulls in a total of 8 to 10 fights against other dog breeds. I have seen a few more pit on pit fights. I've seen a LOT more dogs AFTER fights. I said that I KNEW of plenty though, as in hearing about some of the experiences second hand from vets, visitors to dog shelters surrending dogs, online forum experiences, etc. which of course are not nearly as reliable, but my point still stands. 

I find it appalling for you to think I've been involved in dog fighting... I've worked for over 2 years at 2 different animal shelters after volunteering for a year at the first shelter, which WAS in a VERY povern struck, high-crime rate "ghetto" type town, one of the most dangerous in our state I have heard, known for it's unsafe nature and citizens. There WERE many fighting rings in this area, many of which I saw the effects of afterwards. We had people coming in looking to buy intact, beefy pit bulls all of the time. We didn't even have to stereotype. We would also come in to find up to 4 dogs a week left surrendered in our outdoor pens overnight, maybe 3/4 of which being pit bulls, and 1/2 of which had substantial wounds. We had dogs surrendered in such shape or scarred up in person frequently, with stories made up about a neighbors dog or this and that happened. We can only assume they were surrendering weak or old dogs.



> I do remember one fairly recent encounter with a friends male GSD who weighed about 85 lbs and was about 2.5-3yo at the time, who was attacked in a parking lot by a medium sized male pit and was very definetly getting the worst of the fight when fortunately the pit owner broke it up before the pit could get a solid bite. Don't think that this particular GSD would have been one of the real tough ones that you describe had the fight been allowed to continue.
> 
> Have a nice day!


I think you're missing my point. It's not that a pit with the intent couldn't/wouldn't kill a larger dog, it's that JUST because it's a pit, doesn't put it at any sort of an advantage if it isn't a dog aggressive pit. There are GSDs, Border Collies, and Mutts looking to do a lot more damage than some of the pit bulls they go up against.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> In response to a post made to me on the previous page--
> 
> I do not think all put owners are part of the cut following. The ones that deny deny deny are... As you just stated, you don't deny anything. Therefore you aren't part of the cult. I never said ever pit owner is.
> 
> Also, please go to the ATT website!!!! They specifically say this is not a test of aggression. It tests if a dog fits the breed standard. This test has done nothing for pits... Pitbull OWNERS have lied about what the test is testing for and spread info that more pits pass than any dog....
> 
> Can you please read all my posts, not just the first one, before you comment. This issue was resolved until you posted without reading all posts.


Actually I have read all of your posts. Its still silly and childish to say any Pit owners are part of a "cult" following. That is offensive an rude. Maybe you should read some of your own posts. And I I never said I owned I said "As someone who volunteers at a shelter where there are many pitbulls."

It does help. It shows the dog is stable and can be trusted. Yes, I know its doesn't test for aggression(I think thats because that is NOT what that test is designed to be tested for.) It shows Pitbulls have good temperaments unlike what the media and misinformed people are spouting. Temperament is PART of the breed standard NOT all of it. A dog can still have a good stable temperament and have aggression, such example is with our GSDs. In the GSD breed, some aggression is wanted(The people in Sch may be able to explain it a little better as there have been threads on here about it before.)


----------



## CookieTN

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I do not think all put owners are part of the cut following. The ones that deny deny deny are... As you just stated, you don't deny anything. Therefore you aren't part of the cult. I never said ever pit owner is.



While I'm sure that there are Pit Bull advocates who seem to think the breed is like a kitten and would never ever attack anybody--I have seen at least one PB owner mention those types before (in a negative way)--I haven't seen much of that personally. But I don't follow the debate constantly, don't constantly pine the comments on news articles about PB attacks, am not a member of any Pit Bull forums, etc. As far as dog sites go, I mostly hang around forums like this one and Dogster.
What I see in most cases relating to my experience are people trying to prove that the dogs are not ban-worthy. I don't think I've ever seen anyone deny that Pit Bulls have attacked people, or could harm someone.

Not trying to single you out or gang up on you or anything, neither do I feel the least bit riled up at you. Just saying that most PB advocates I've seen don't seem to be acting all cult-like.


----------



## AgileGSD

x0emiroxy0x said:


> A pit killed a lab at the dog park a few months ago... Thank god they are now banned.


 Dog parks aren't entirely safe, regardless of breeds involved. A standard poodle killed a dog at one of the closet dog parks to me.




Falkosmom said:


> The pits I have seen where this happens, once this switch is flipped, and it comes with no warning, miraculously change that very second into an extremely DA dog that can no longer be brought around other dogs. I have seen it over and over at the parks.


 
I saw this many times at daycare as well. I don't think group play situations are appropriate for pit bulls because I think they can lead to triggering DA in dogs where it wouldn't have otherwise been an issue. I think it comes from the overstimulation that is part of daycare or dog park type situations. We had no pit bulls who worked out long term to be at daycare. That said, our daycare didn't have much better long term success with GSDs or Rotties and Boxers were quite iffy as well. We had no GSDs or Rotties who could come long term except for my own GSD and she had no interest in playing with the other dogs. Like the pit bulls, most GSDs and Rotties started off ok but the more exposure to group play they had, the worse they became. And we had a few GSDs who just never adjusted to being left - did nothing but owner search the entire time they were there. Those dogs didn't develop dog related issues, they were just really unhappy. The Rotties all eventually washed out due to developing dog aggression related issues. Some Boxers washed out for that too and none of the Boxers were really great with other dogs. By far the easiest dogs we had in terms of other dogs were retrievers and hounds.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

CookieTN said:


> While I'm sure that there are Pit Bull advocates who seem to think the breed is like a kitten and would never ever attack anybody--I have seen at least one PB owner mention those types before (in a negative way)--I haven't seen much of that personally. But I don't follow the debate constantly, don't constantly pine the comments on news articles about PB attacks, am not a member of any Pit Bull forums, etc. As far as dog sites go, I mostly hang around forums like this one and Dogster.
> What I see in most cases relating to my experience are people trying to prove that the dogs are not ban-worthy. I don't think I've ever seen anyone deny that Pit Bulls have attacked people, or could harm someone.
> 
> Not trying to single you out or gang up on you or anything, neither do I feel the least bit riled up at you. Just saying that most PB advocates I've seen don't seem to be acting all cult-like.


Because there's nothing to actually deny. Should I deny that German shepherds ate capable of killing a person just because someone is scared of them? 
No! 

Pitbulls are very capable of damage just like any other dog bigger than 30lbs. 

Dogs are animals and animals are still unpredictable at times. 

We as a cult of pitbull owners and lovers ate simply trying to point out how silly a ban is. Even if pitbulls were dangerous in a hypothetical situation, the people that harbor these dangerous animals would never get out if then just because they are illegal.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

Gahh ignore my weird spelling errors I'm typing from my phone


----------



## Mrs.K

Just a couple of months back a Belgian Malinois and a German Shepherd ran at large, in Germany, attacking SEVERAL people, injuring them severely. They both got shot. 

Another German Shepherd, out of the blue, attacked their elderly owner, in Germany, injuring the elder severely. The dog was killed. 

German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, can just be as dangerous as a pit bull. 

If you are scared of a Pit Bull, you should be scared of Shepherds, Dobermans and Rottweilers too. That would be the logical thing, but as always, when it comes up to dogs, nothing is logical.


----------



## MountainGSDs

Mrs.K said:


> If you are scared of a Pit Bull, you should be scared of Shepherds, Dobermans and Rottweilers too. That would be the logical thing, but as always, when it comes up to dogs, nothing is logical.


Not totally true. I have found after doing a lot of evaluations that Bullies and bully mixes tend not to telegraph their intentions. Many times they don't send the body language like GSDs usually do. 
All breeds can have temperament issues but the bullies because of popularity and poor breeding are taking it to a new level.

You can't fix a problem until you acknowledge it and own it.


----------



## GatorDog

MountainGSDs said:


> Not totally true. I have found after doing a lot of evaluations that Bullies and bully mixes tend not to telegraph their intentions. Many times they don't send the body language like GSDs usually do.
> All breeds can have temperament issues but the bullies because of popularity and poor breeding are taking it to a new level.
> 
> You can't fix a problem until you acknowledge it and own it.


Maybe the specific dogs that you have worked with didn't display very obvious body language positions, but most dogs in general are extremely predictable if you know what signs to look for. Problem is, most people don't. Just like most people think that a wagging tail means the dog is happy, and in reality that isn't always the case. I haven't noticed any difference in body language between a pit and a GSD. When they don't like another dog, they make it known.


----------



## Falkosmom

GatorDog said:


> Maybe the specific dogs that you have worked with didn't display very obvious body language positions, but most dogs in general are extremely predictable if you know what signs to look for. Problem is, most people don't. Just like most people think that a wagging tail means the dog is happy, and in reality that isn't always the case. I haven't noticed any difference in body language between a pit and a GSD. When they don't like another dog, they make it known.


In almost every incidence of a pit attack that I witnessed, no warning was given. The first time, my 3 month puppy was attacked he was laying under a park bench and never even saw the pit coming. Another time, somebody else's dog was barking in the pit's face when the pit suddenly whipped around and savaged my dog who was standing off to the side and just watching the other dog barking. NO! There usually are no warnings!


----------



## Falkosmom

MountainGSDs said:


> Not totally true. I have found after doing a lot of evaluations that Bullies and bully mixes tend not to telegraph their intentions. Many times they don't send the body language like GSDs usually do.
> All breeds can have temperament issues but the bullies because of popularity and poor breeding are taking it to a new level.
> 
> You can't fix a problem until you acknowledge it and own it.


Well, said.


----------



## GatorDog

Again, maybe you also do not know what to look for. One dog _barking_ in another dog's face is a quick way to set something off, and if this is at a dog park (which is sounds like) then many times important body language cues can be easily missed in the midst of the chaos. A warning does not necessarily mean a growl, lip curl, posturing etc. There are many more aspects to body language than that.


----------



## Mrs.K

Falkosmom said:


> In almost every incidence of a pit attack that I witnessed, no warning was given. The first time, my 3 month puppy was attacked he was laying under a park bench and never even saw the pit coming. Another time, somebody else's dog was barking in the pit's face when the pit suddenly whipped around and savaged my dog who was standing off to the side and just watching the other dog barking. NO! There usually are no warnings!


And you didn't think that a dog could get fed up by another dog barking into his face? 

Those are the kind of situations where you walk away and don't just stand there waiting for something to happen. 

With dogs we have to look at a situation and take it as what it is. You always have to be a step ahead and KNOW that a situation like that could end up with the dog leaping out.


----------



## Falkosmom

GatorDog said:


> Again, maybe you also do not know what to look for. One dog _barking_ in another dog's face is a quick way to set something off, and if this is at a dog park (which is sounds like) then many times important body language cues can be easily missed in the midst of the chaos. A warning does not necessarily mean a growl, lip curl, posturing etc. There are many more aspects to body language than that.


Yes, it was at a dog park, but my dog was not involved and was standing at my side several feet away to the side and back. I could see if the pit had grabbed the dog barking in its face, but I don't even know how it knew my dog was standing where he was.


----------



## Falkosmom

Mrs.K said:


> And you didn't think that a dog could get fed up by another dog barking into his face?
> 
> Those are the kind of situations where you walk away and don't just stand there waiting for something to happen.
> 
> With dogs we have to look at a situation and take it as what it is. You always have to be a step ahead and KNOW that a situation like that could end up with the dog leaping out.


Yes, I did assume the pit would get fed up which is why I was standing with my dog to the side and back of the pit, several feet away. I gave the pit more credit than to attack a dog that was not bothering it and, if anything, to attack the dog that was provoking it.

And yes, you are right, I was stupid for standing there waiting for something to happen. I used to be of the train of thought that is was the owner, not the breed. After witnessing so many unprovoked pit attacks, all I have to do is see a pit and I remove my dogs out of the area.


----------



## GatorDog

Falkosmom said:


> Yes, I did assume the pit would get fed up which is why I was standing with my dog to the side and back of the pit, several feet away. I gave the pit more credit than to attack a dog that was not bothering it and, if anything, to attack the dog that was provoking it.
> 
> And yes, you are right, I was stupid for standing there waiting for something to happen. I used to be of the train of thought that is was the owner, not the breed. After witnessing so many unprovoked pit attacks, all I have to do is see a pit and I remove my dogs out of the area.


Well clearly that attack was not "unprovoked". And it sounds like whoever you were with in the park with was also an irresponsible owner for allowing their dog to bark in another dogs face to the point of instigating a fight. In which case you should probably just not bring your dog to a park where it is not properly supervised, not because there is a pit bull there.


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## GregK

There's always warning signs - always! The untrained eye won't be able to pick up on the subtle ones.


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## GatorDog

GregK said:


> There's always warning signs - always! The untrained eye won't be able to pick up on the subtle ones.


:thumbup:

THANK YOU!


----------



## 4TheDawgies

If you are not seeing warning signs from a dog before a fight then, (not to be rude) but you just didnt see the warning signs. 

Bullys give off just as many signals as needed. This coming from someone who does behavior modification for pitbulls and other dogs with severe aggression problems, and also someone who worked in the doggy daycare field for 2 years.


----------



## Falkosmom

GatorDog said:


> Well clearly that attack was not "unprovoked". And it sounds like whoever you were with in the park with was also an irresponsible owner for allowing their dog to bark in another dogs face to the point of instigating a fight. In which case you should probably just not bring your dog to a park where it is not properly supervised, not because there is a pit bull there.


 
Please don't turn this around to be that the attack on my dog was unprovoked. If the pit had attacked the barking dog, then I would agree with you, but to attack a dog that was not involved and not all that close to it, is unprovoked. My dog was a silent observer, as I was. If the pit had bit me instead, would you still think the attack was provoked?

What I saw was a pit being barked at by another dog, and calmly ignoring it. The pit gave off no warning signs.


----------



## Falkosmom

4TheDawgies said:


> If you are not seeing warning signs from a dog before a fight then, (not to be rude) but you just didnt see the warning signs.
> 
> Bullys give off just as many signals as needed. This coming from someone who does behavior modification for pitbulls and other dogs with severe aggression problems, and also someone who worked in the doggy daycare field for 2 years.


 
This particular pit just stood there calmly facing the barking dog. Then, without warning, it whirled around and attacked my dog. I do not see how anybody can think that my dog provoked this pit to attack.


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## Falkosmom

"Please don't turn this around to be that the attack on my dog was unprovoked. "

Sorry, meant provoked.


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## GregK

Falkosmom said:


> I do not see how anybody can think that my dog provoked this pit to attack.


He didn't. It's called redirected aggression. You dog was a victim of circumstance


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## Falkosmom

Thank you GregK.


----------



## CookieTN

4TheDawgies said:


> Because there's nothing to actually deny. Should I deny that German shepherds ate capable of killing a person just because someone is scared of them?
> No!
> 
> Pitbulls are very capable of damage just like any other dog bigger than 30lbs.
> 
> Dogs are animals and animals are still unpredictable at times.
> 
> We as a cult of pitbull owners and lovers ate simply trying to point out how silly a ban is. Even if pitbulls were dangerous in a hypothetical situation, the people that harbor these dangerous animals would never get out if then just because they are illegal.


I know and agree.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Here's Dena & Keefer meeting a nice pittie at an off leash park near our house:










There's one in particular that we've seen at Point Isabel a couple of times. I can't find the picture where I snapped her photobombing my dogs while they were swimming - it was so cute, there was this little gray head bobbing in the water by them! I'm not sure if it was Dena & Keefer or Keefer & Halo. Every time we see her she comes romping over to say hi. They don't really care, but she seems to want to be friends with everybody.


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## DJEtzel

AgileGSD said:


> Dog parks aren't entirely safe, regardless of breeds involved. A standard poodle killed a dog at one of the closet dog parks to me.


Absolutely. I work at a dog park and we've had a few dog FIGHTS, many dog scuffles and incidents that we had to log. Not ONE involved a pit bull.



MountainGSDs said:


> Not totally true. I have found after doing a lot of evaluations that Bullies and bully mixes tend not to telegraph their intentions. Many times they don't send the body language like GSDs usually do.
> All breeds can have temperament issues but the bullies because of popularity and poor breeding are taking it to a new level.
> 
> You can't fix a problem until you acknowledge it and own it.


What kind of evaluations are you talking about? I've done quite a few of different sorts... MOSTLY dog/dog evals, but many temperament evaluations too and my experience has been the exact opposite. I'm about 40x more leery of GSDs and like sized guarding or herding breeds than I am a pit bull because they are a LOT more likely to have more subtle signs of aggression or put up with a lot less.



Falkosmom said:


> Please don't turn this around to be that the attack on my dog was unprovoked. If the pit had attacked the barking dog, then I would agree with you, but to attack a dog that was not involved and not all that close to it, is unprovoked. My dog was a silent observer, as I was. If the pit had bit me instead, would you still think the attack was provoked?
> 
> What I saw was a pit being barked at by another dog, and calmly ignoring it. *The pit gave off no warning signs.*


That you saw. The pit went over threshold and redirected aggression onto your dog. It is NOT uncommon for ANY poorly bred, unstable, nervy, or neurotic dog to do this of ANY breed. I have seen a lot of cage fighting turn into redirected aggression onto kennel mates or pen mates. 



Falkosmom said:


> This particular pit just stood there calmly facing the barking dog. Then, without warning, it whirled around and attacked my dog. I do not see how anybody can think that my dog provoked this pit to attack.





GregK said:


> He didn't. It's called redirected aggression. You dog was a victim of circumstance


:thumbup: Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## GregK

GregK said:


> You dog was a victim of circumstance


What kinda of english is this!!??

*You*r* dog*


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## GatorDog

Falkosmom said:


> Please don't turn this around to be that the attack on my dog was unprovoked. If the pit had attacked the barking dog, then I would agree with you, but to attack a dog that was not involved and not all that close to it, is unprovoked. My dog was a silent observer, as I was. If the pit had bit me instead, would you still think the attack was provoked?
> 
> What I saw was a pit being barked at by another dog, and calmly ignoring it. The pit gave off no warning signs.


It would have been unprovoked if another dog had not been barking in the pits face. As someone else already state, the pit redirected aggression onto your pup after being provoked by the barking dog. If the pit had bitten you, it would still have been provoked by the barking dog. No animal goes from calm to aggressive with no warning signs in between.


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## MountainGSDs

GregK said:


> There's always warning signs - always! The untrained eye won't be able to pick up on the subtle ones.


Really? Most of my over 40 years experience has been with GSDs and Rotties and I find them to be easy to read and pretty predictable. School me on the bullies? LOL


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## Dainerra

The only time I've never seen dogs not give warning signals is when they have been punished for doing so. Like when people who punish their dogs for growling, so the dog doesn't growl and just bites.
All the pits I've met have the same body language as all the other dogs I've met. Now, I have seen some pits with cropped ears and docked tails that were obviously missing those clues.


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## GatorDog

Dainerra said:


> The only time I've never seen dogs not give warning signals is when they have been punished for doing so. Like when people who punish their dogs for growling, so the dog doesn't growl and just bites.
> All the pits I've met have the same body language as all the other dogs I've met. Now, I have seen some pits with cropped ears and docked tails that were obviously missing those clues.


 
Really great point! That totally takes away from any of the visible cues. Very sad


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## DJEtzel

MountainGSDs said:


> Really? Most of my over 40 years experience has been with GSDs and Rotties and I find them to be easy to read and pretty predictable. School me on the bullies? LOL


What experience form was this in? Training, showing, handling... rescue? I know there is a big difference... I work in rescue with a LOT of unpredictable dogs, aggressive dogs, dogs with medical issues in pain, poorly bred/nervey dogs, etc. so I don't find it strange that a dog with the drives and intelligence of a GSD is going to have issues with people after bouncing around shelters and having god knows what doing to it... whereas pits were bred to NOT redirect onto humans... I'm a lot less wary of them and they tend to just be happy to be with people, IME of course.



Dainerra said:


> The only time I've never seen dogs not give warning signals is when they have been punished for doing so. Like when people who punish their dogs for growling, so the dog doesn't growl and just bites.
> All the pits I've met have the same body language as all the other dogs I've met. Now, I have seen some pits with cropped ears and docked tails that were obviously missing those clues.


You have a very good point about certain warning signs being able to be "trained" away. However, typically you can still tell that a dog is unhappy or uncomfortable before/during the process at which he would typically growl, before a bite has to happen.


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## jetscarbie

I'm just curious...b/c I know nothing about pit's and the owners.

If you have pit's...do you feel different taking your pit somewhere compared to a GSD or other breed? Does it seem like you have to be more alert or anything like that? Do complete strangers act weird around your pit verus your other breed dog? I know I would feel like my dog was always in the limelight when I was out in public....wondering if that's how pit owners feel??????

Hope that's not a stupid question...but I was really wondering how pit owners felt.


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## GatorDog

I live in an area that a lot of people would consider "ghetto" and find that my pit is more socially acceptable than my GSD. Pits are deinitely more popular around here so that's probably why. And most of the people around here have only seen GSD's a police dogs chasing dog and biting criminals, not as pets. People cross the street to avoid my GSD all the time but always run over and pet my pit.


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## Lesley1905

GatorDog said:


> I live in an area that a lot of people would consider "ghetto" and find that my pit is more socially acceptable than my GSD. Pits are deinitely more popular around here so that's probably why. And most of the people around here have only seen GSD's a police dogs chasing dog and biting criminals, not as pets. People cross the street to avoid my GSD all the time but always run over and pet my pit.


Same with me! The vet I work at is right next door to a high crime area. When I have Brody with me at work, alot of the clients will shy away from him if we are up front. I've even had a couple people say "oh s***!" when they see him. I guess they expect him to lunge at them. Only if they knew that he is the biggest lush! But, if I have my pit, Zella, they all want to come over and meet her and always ask about her. My boss, the vet, is a little intimidated by GSD's. She's had a couple lunge at her in the room for no reason, she didnt even touch them yet. She owns 3 pitbulls. GSD's can get a bad rap also, it's just not fair to stereotype any breed just because a couple of bad apples have shown their face. I muzzle dachshunds, beagles, and other breeds way before I do a pitbull or a GSD. In my eyes, they will bite you and your dog 10 times faster. Smaller dog bites just don't get reported as much as bigger dog bites do. I think until you've owned certain breeds, been around them, worked with them, trained with them, etc, its not fair to make your opinions just on what other people tell you or what you see in the news.


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## DJEtzel

jetscarbie said:


> I'm just curious...b/c I know nothing about pit's and the owners.
> 
> If you have pit's...do you feel different taking your pit somewhere compared to a GSD or other breed? Does it seem like you have to be more alert or anything like that? Do complete strangers act weird around your pit verus your other breed dog? I know I would feel like my dog was always in the limelight when I was out in public....wondering if that's how pit owners feel??????
> 
> Hope that's not a stupid question...but I was really wondering how pit owners felt.


Like others have kind of mentioned, it really depends on the area...

I had pits growing up and people loved them then...

Now, I have temporarily fostered some from the shelter where I used to work, and I babysit my friend's pit very frequently. It completely depends on where I'm at how people react. If I take them to groom at the dog park where I work (whose member base is predominantly wealthy upper class seniors), people get scared and leave, even though we aren't in the park. If I take them through my neighborhood, people take their kids inside (this is ON leash) or will cross to the other side of the street. Pet stores? Most staff will meet them, but almost every customer will shy away and/or stare (not in a good way). Most people avoid my GSD, too, but I get nasty comments about pit bulls when I bring up owning them previously/fostering/pet sitting for them. 

Where we used to live, it was a predominantly poor, underprivledged, ghetto city and the shelter where I worked there had a LOVE for pits, because of the people that lived in the city being surrounded by them. 

If I took Frag for a walk anywhere, young thugs would literally flee in different directions from us coming, yelling about a police dog. That's just how it was.

Eta; With the pit bull hysteria in the news nowadays, I do feel like when I have one out, I have to be 10x more vigilant, they have to be trained better, etc. My friend leaves his pit here for about a week every month to up her training because he doesn't have the skill to do so and he knows she can't be a wild dog in public. So I take her places to work on it and I get great comments about how she's the most well-behaved pit bull so and so's met, and I get nasty ones about her being a pit bull period. All I can do is keep her looking fantastic and safe.


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## CookieTN

I'm not completely sure about the perception of Pits in my city, but they do seem pretty common. (As are GSDs, but I still got mean comments about Cookie sometimes. I've never owned a Pit.) Whenever I see a Pit, I like to ask about petting him. Once I shouted "I like your dog!" over to a Pit owner.:crazy:


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## Dainerra

I can tell you I get a lot more mean comments about my GSD than I ever did about my pit-mix.


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## Jessiewessie99

I get nice comments about my GSDs. I don't own a Pitbull, but many people know I volunteer and always ask "Aren't you scared of the Pitbulls" I proudly say with a smile "Nope." I have only seen a few people with Pitbull/Pit mixes walking around, the dogs are well behaved and not causing trouble.


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## MountainGSDs

DJEtzel said:


> What experience form was this in? Training, showing, handling... rescue? I know there is a big difference... I work in rescue with a LOT of unpredictable dogs, aggressive dogs, dogs with medical issues in pain, poorly bred/nervey dogs, etc. so I don't find it strange that a dog with the drives and intelligence of a GSD is going to have issues with people after bouncing around shelters and having god knows what doing to it... whereas pits were bred to NOT redirect onto humans... I'm a lot less wary of them and they tend to just be happy to be with people, IME of course.


My family has only owned GSDs since before I was born. I am late 50s but I didn't get serious until about I was on my own and had my own in the early 70s. Trained obedience, was a helper with a police K9 trainer, got involved with rescue long before it became trendy. 
Trained basically every method as they evolved. 
In the last 15 or so years most dogs I've been asked to evacuate have been for rescues so overall there background at times is suspect.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> Absolutely. I work at a dog park and we've had a few dog FIGHTS, many dog scuffles and incidents that we had to log. Not ONE involved a pit bull.


I *used *to be an avid fan of dog parks, spending many hours there. There were more than a few scuffles, none involving pit bulls. On the other hand there were many egregious fights, all of them instigated by pits.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> That you saw. The pit went over threshold and redirected aggression onto your dog. It is NOT uncommon for ANY poorly bred, unstable, nervy, or neurotic dog to do this of ANY breed. I have seen a lot of cage fighting turn into redirected aggression onto kennel mates or pen mates.
> 
> 
> .


It is my understanding that redirected aggression is when an agitated animal cannot get to its target. This was not the case when my dog was attacked. The pit could have easily attacked the dog that was barking in its face, it chose not to, perhaps I misunderstand redirected aggression.


----------



## Falkosmom

GatorDog said:


> It would have been unprovoked if another dog had not been barking in the pits face. As someone else already state, the pit redirected aggression onto your pup after being provoked by the barking dog. If the pit had bitten you, it would still have been provoked by the barking dog. No animal goes from calm to aggressive with no warning signs in between.


 
So what if a bird had chirped in the pit's ear and made it angry? I really don't want to offend or disrespect you or anybody else, and I apologize upfront because that is not why I am speaking my mind on this thread, but I am at a loss for saying this any nicer, ..._that is not a defense for what that dog did_. If anything that statement is a valid reason for passing strict breed legislation (not that I support breed legislation). 

I am an old lady, had dogs in multiples all my life, work with feral cats, (want to talk about nerve bags), yet, I never saw an animal with access to its target attack another animal.


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## Falkosmom

I made the horrible mistake of believing that pits were no different than other dogs. I don't care what you think about me, but what tears my heart apart is my little buddy, in his first year of puppyhood, was brutalized by pit bulls on more than one occasion. My little non dog aggressive friend that looked up to me to protect him, and I failed him miserably. I took him to the dog parks and allowed pits access to my best friend, how I wish I could take it back, I will never get over the guilt when I look into those trusting brown eyes. 

I chose to participate in this thread so that others would not make the same mistake that I did.


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## 4TheDawgies

Falkosmom said:


> It is my understanding that redirected aggression is when an agitated animal cannot get to its target. This was not the case when my dog was attacked. The pit could have easily attacked the dog that was barking in its face, it chose not to, perhaps I misunderstand redirected aggression.


LOL try doing protection work with some shepherds and malis etc. and you will have a clear understanding of redirected aggression.

The dog barking in the pits face might have been too hard a challenge (barrier) and redirected to your dog.

Heck even humans do it. Guy in a bar gets mad. Punches a wall.


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## CookieTN

I don't think anyone can fault you for forming opinions based on those kind of experiences. But I have seen people relate similar experiences, and others relate different, more positive, experiences. As mentioned, I think it depends at least somewhat on area.
I know that Pits are more likely to have DA more than other breeds, but as for any personal experience on that I have little to relate. I've let my dog hang out with a Pit before. She was a nice dog. I love meeting Pits. But most of the time when I have met them in the past, my dogs happened not to be with me.


----------



## Falkosmom

4TheDawgies said:


> LOL try doing protection work with some shepherds and malis etc. and you will have a clear understanding of redirected aggression.
> 
> The dog barking in the pits face might have been too hard a challenge (barrier) and redirected to your dog.
> 
> Heck even humans do it. Guy in a bar gets mad. Punches a wall.


Am I understanding you correctly when I say that these dogs in training that you speak of, when agitated by something that intimidates them, that they then redirect to something they perceive as not threatening to them?


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> It is my understanding that redirected aggression is when an agitated animal cannot get to its target. This was not the case when my dog was attacked. The pit could have easily attacked the dog that was barking in its face, it chose not to, perhaps I misunderstand redirected aggression.


You do misunderstand. It CAN be barrier frustration, but redirection can be onto whatever is easiest, smallest, loudest, in the way, etc. It's not redirection if they're attacking the source of their frustration/aggression.



Falkosmom said:


> I made the horrible mistake of believing that pits were no different than other dogs. I don't care what you think about me, but what tears my heart apart is my little buddy, in his first year of puppyhood, was brutalized by pit bulls on more than one occasion. My little non dog aggressive friend that looked up to me to protect him, and I failed him miserably. I took him to the dog parks and allowed pits access to my best friend, how I wish I could take it back, I will never get over the guilt when I look into those trusting brown eyes.
> 
> I chose to participate in this thread so that others would not make the same mistake that I did.


I made the same mistake. Only it was letting my GSD puppy get attacked THREE times by other GSDs.


----------



## Dainerra

Falkosmom said:


> It is my understanding that redirected aggression is when an agitated animal cannot get to its target. This was not the case when my dog was attacked. The pit could have easily attacked the dog that was barking in its face, it chose not to, perhaps I misunderstand redirected aggression.


it doesn't have to be "can't get to the dog" It can be "afraid to retaliate" or any number of things. Kind of like when your boss yells at you so you are crabby to your spouse when you get home. Or a co-worker gives you crap all day and you yell at your kids for being noisy when they come home from school.


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## LaRen616

I have nothing against bully breeds and I would have no problem letting my dogs play with bully breeds.

My neighbor has 2 male English Bulldogs and Sinister and Congo (one of the males) get along wonderfully.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> You do misunderstand. It CAN be barrier frustration, but redirection can be onto whatever is easiest, smallest, loudest, in the way, etc. It's not redirection if they're attacking the source of their frustration/aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> I made the same mistake. Only it was letting my GSD puppy get attacked THREE times by other GSDs.


I am sorry that your puppy experienced this, I know the feeling when your baby is being attacked repeatedly. It does something to you when a dog grabs your puppy and won't let go, you feel so helpless. But in my case, the writing was on the wall, I had abandoned common sense and believed the pit bull advocates. My dog has probably been attacked by pits at least ten times in his lifetime, and I have witnessed over a dozen or more pit attacks on somebody else's dogs. Why does this keep happening?

The routine at the dog park is somebody wants a dog they can take to the dog park, so they get a pit puppy. Really? All is well until the pup matures. Then you notice you don't see this person anymore...hey, where is so and so? I have not seen them for a couple of weeks. The answer, oh, his pit attacked a dog so he doesn't come any more. Then on the horizon appears another.... the cycle never seems to end. I have never encountered a pit at the park I go to that has been able to come to the park past two years of age.

Before I got my GSD, I thought about adopting a pit bull from a rescue. The honest and responsible rescues that I was in contact with helped me make the decision that the pit bull was not a dog that was for me. They strongly felt that pits should never be taken to dog parks or any public place where they may come in contact with other dogs. They believed the pit should be muzzled when it was absolutely necessary to have it around other dogs. After speaking to these rescues, I should have known better than to allow my pup near pits. I should have listened to the pit bull rescues, they love pits too.


----------



## Falkosmom

LaRen616 said:


> I have nothing against bully breeds and I would have no problem letting my dogs play with bully breeds.
> 
> My neighbor has 2 male English Bulldogs and Sinister and Congo (one of the males) get along wonderfully.


I don't have a problem with bully breeds in general either. I have seen no greater risk with them and I am a big fan of American bulldogs. 

It is pit bulls, specifically, that are the problem. The worst problem with the pits are the owners. Most of the attacks I have witnessed should never have happened.


----------



## Dainerra

Falkosmom said:


> The routine at the dog park is somebody wants a dog they can take to the dog park, so they get a pit puppy. Really? All is well until the pup matures. Then you notice you don't see this person anymore...hey, where is so and so? I have not seen them for a couple of weeks. The answer, oh, his pit attacked a dog so he doesn't come any more. Then on the horizon appears another.... the cycle never seems to end. I have never encountered a pit at the park I go to that has been able to come to the park past two years of age.
> .


the same can be said for GSDs. Many people here can point out that shepherds are not often good candidates for dog parks or even daycares.

ETA: but I agree that the people you are talking about are pretty stupid. It is clueless people like that that cause more damage to the breed's reputation than a dozen "fighters"


----------



## Falkosmom

Dainerra said:


> the same can be said for GSDs. Many people here can point out that shepherds are not often good candidates for dog parks or even daycares.
> 
> ETA: but I agree that the people you are talking about are pretty stupid. It is clueless people like that that cause more damage to the breed's reputation than a dozen "fighters"


I have to admit I am very surprised to read the bad press here on the GSDs with other dogs. My family has owned GSDs long before I was born and I am no spring chicken. Since we are an active outdoorsy type of family we have always chosen GSDs, especially males, for their good naturedness around other animals. It just makes it so much easier to take them everywhere we went. I have always had a least two, usually both males, and at one point I had two unspayed females and two unneutered males, all adults, with no issues in my home or with other dogs.


----------



## Lesley1905

Falkosmom said:


> I am sorry that your puppy experienced this, I know the feeling when your baby is being attacked repeatedly. It does something to you when a dog grabs your puppy and won't let go, you feel so helpless. But in my case, the writing was on the wall, I had abandoned common sense and believed the pit bull advocates. My dog has probably been attacked by pits at least ten times in his lifetime, and I have witnessed over a dozen or more pit attacks on somebody else's dogs. Why does this keep happening?
> 
> The routine at the dog park is somebody wants a dog they can take to the dog park, so they get a pit puppy. Really? All is well until the pup matures. Then you notice you don't see this person anymore...hey, where is so and so? I have not seen them for a couple of weeks. The answer, oh, his pit attacked a dog so he doesn't come any more. Then on the horizon appears another.... the cycle never seems to end. I have never encountered a pit at the park I go to that has been able to come to the park past two years of age.
> 
> Before I got my GSD, I thought about adopting a pit bull from a rescue. The honest and responsible rescues that I was in contact with helped me make the decision that the pit bull was not a dog that was for me. They strongly felt that pits should never be taken to dog parks or any public place where they may come in contact with other dogs. They believed the pit should be muzzled when it was absolutely necessary to have it around other dogs. After speaking to these rescues, I should have known better than to allow my pup near pits. I should have listened to the pit bull rescues, they love pits too.


Wow that's some rescue there. When I adopted my pit from a rescue they never told me any of that. I'm glad they didn't. That's really sad that they gave you that information. That shows that that particular rescue you spoke with knows NOTHING about dogs and the pitbull breed. Why would they even bother having a rescue if they solicit information like that. I guess I broke their rules....I have my pit around other dogs every day and have had nothing happen. She's never even seen a muzzle. Whoopsie!!!!


----------



## Lesley1905

Dainerra said:


> the same can be said for GSDs. Many people here can point out that shepherds are not often good candidates for dog parks or even daycares.
> 
> ETA: but I agree that the people you are talking about are pretty stupid. It is clueless people like that that cause more damage to the breed's reputation than a dozen "fighters"


:thumbup:


----------



## LaRen616

Falkosmom said:


> I have to admit I am very surprised to read the bad press here on the GSDs with other dogs.


Me too. When I first registered with this site everyone kept telling me that my male would not like other dogs as he matures. My male will be 3 years old in March and he LOVES other dogs, male or female, big or small, he likes them all. 

My female, even though she is only going to be 7 months old, also likes other dogs.


----------



## Falkosmom

Lesley1905 said:


> Wow that's some rescue there. When I adopted my pit from a rescue they never told me any of that. I'm glad they didn't. That's really sad that they gave you that information. That shows that that particular rescue you spoke with knows NOTHING about dogs and the pitbull breed. Why would they even bother having a rescue if they solicit information like that. I guess I broke their rules....I have my pit around other dogs every day and have had nothing happen. She's never even seen a muzzle. Whoopsie!!!!


You are going back about ten years ago, things could be different today. I would guestimate that about one out of three rescues at that time advocated that and it was not uncommon for them to insist that you have a jawbreaker in case your dog would ever get loose.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

Falkosmom said:


> Am I understanding you correctly when I say that these dogs in training that you speak of, when agitated by something that intimidates them, that they then redirect to something they perceive as not threatening to them?


Its not even something that's not "threatening" to them. Its relieving tension. I've been bit by one of my dogs as a redirected frustrated bark. The first time it happened I wanted to kick my dogs butt. My TD advised me to never take offense to a bite like that, and to just stay out of the dogs way during this frustration phase. Why? because (and I have observed this) in every other part of the dogs life, that specific dog is submissive to me. In fact he won't even bite a sleeve I am holding because he doesn't want to disrespect me. He won't bark at me, only jumps on me when I encourage it, is a complete gentle man. But when frustrated, with adrenaline, and in fight drive they aren't paying as much attention to their surroundings and just take a bite out of what is convenient to them. 

Even then its possible this was not a redirected attack. I will try and see if I can get a video of how my dogs gang up on each other in play. This happens in dog fights. When a dog is perceived as a danger, as weak, as unstable, etc. a dog will "out" that dog. 
Ie. dog barking in pitbulls face.





Falkosmom said:


> In almost every incidence of a pit attack that I witnessed, no warning was given. The first time, my 3 month puppy was attacked *he was laying under a park bench and never even saw the pit coming.* Another time, somebody else's dog was barking in the pit's face when *the pit suddenly whipped around and savaged my dog who was standing off to the side and just watching the other dog barking.* NO! There usually are no warnings!


Other dogs join to watch and see whats going on. some others will jump in barking. Some will run up and immediately attack. Depends on the breed and the style they choose to handle the situation. If your dog was even close to the "group" around the pitbull then your dog could have been perceived as on of them "against" him. 

When a dog is surrounded by multiple dogs, dogs barking at him and trying to ward him off or threaten him, it can put most any dog into a slight panic. Eyes dilate, they spin, keep tail under them and circle watching their surroundings. 
Or as some would handle it. let the anger build inside then give one really good "leave me alone". and Voila a pit whips around and grabs a dog who is part of this "pack" and a dog fight happens. 

Now for a stable dog who is well exercised, level headed with a good temperament and the dogs are just territorial barking, this may just turn into a dog turns around and goes other way thing. Maybe some negotiation signals. Maybe a correction for a dog acting out of place (for dogs that know each other). 

The reason this turns into a fight is because the original dog being "outed" to begin with is unstable and the rest of the pack wants nothing to do with it. 

when you deal with an unstable dog of ANY breed, fights are bound to happen. Now why is it so dangerous? because we have a TERRIER. Does anyone here have yorkies? wheatons? rat terriers or jack russels?

can anyone tell me how HARD HEADED and INSISTENT these dogs are? 

Terriers have fight drive, they have tenacity, they never give up. So when a terrier, ie pitbull, gets into a fight they are going to keep going until they feel what they wanted is accomplished. 

This is why not only pitbulls, but other breeds with this tenacity, the fight drive etc. just don't belong in a dog park. 

In theory and on paper, dog parks look like a GREAT idea! Everyone goes there to let their dogs have play dates. 

But tell me, do any of you see wolves having play dates in the wild? 
Well when you have working type breeds like this, they don't want to have a play date any more than a wolf. Now obviously there are exceptions to the rules. But why not have a safe environment where its only two or three dogs instead of a pack of upwards of 100 dogs that can turn into a massive dog fight?
Why risk it?

My dogs safety is worth more to me than trying to set up a play date at a dog park with a crapshoot of potentially very aggressive dogs.






Falkosmom said:


> I have to admit I am very surprised to read the bad press here on the GSDs with other dogs. My family has owned GSDs long before I was born and I am no spring chicken. Since we are an active outdoorsy type of family we have always chosen GSDs, especially males, for their good naturedness around other animals. It just makes it so much easier to take them everywhere we went. I have always had a least two, usually both males, and at one point I had two unspayed females and two unneutered males, all adults, with no issues in my home or with other dogs.


But you do realize that by saying since mine can do it all can that you are generalizing. No just because your dogs get along with other dogs so well in public situations does not mean the breed as a whole does.

German Shepherds are pack dogs, are territorial, have a lot of fight drive, are very confident which also leads into dominance. So when dealing with a shepherd with another dog you quite often deal with a seemingly "mature" acting dog versus some goofy dog who wants to play and the shepherd wants nothing of it. 

My Shepherds have no interest in playing with bizarre dogs they've never met before. Unless I personally show an interest.
I work at a retail store and bring my dogs with me. Other people bring their dogs in and my dogs will actually continue laying on the floor watching the other dog. It confuses a lot of people.

So that being said, just because your specific dog park has many problems with pitbulls attacking, doesn't mean the breed as a whole struggles with attacks like this.

Dog fights at dog parks happen because people use dog parks as a form of exercise. Which is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. All of the energy the dog has saved up with an entire week of sitting in a house all day, and the dog lets loose at the dog park. Add excitement, energy, a little bit of dominance, power, and size and voila you have a bomb. Who wants to light it? 

Ahhh the lovely dog over here who is barking in his face.

ANY dog, and I mean ANY dog has the ability, and has a breaking point that they will attack because they are not being exercised properly. 

Again I find myself explaining that pitbulls are not "magical" in the sense of having different abilities to magically not show signals of attacking etc. 
Pitbulls give off just as many body language signals as any other dog when getting ready to attack. The more you learn about dog behavior the better you will see it.


----------



## Falkosmom

LaRen616 said:


> Me too. When I first registered with this site everyone kept telling me that my male would not like other dogs as he matures. My male will be 3 years old in March and he LOVES other dogs, male or female, big or small, he likes them all.
> 
> My female, even though she is only going to be 7 months old, also likes other dogs.


My adult male will be nine in February. Even with all the attacks he has endured, he still loves other animals, just he is far more cautious with other dogs now, not happy go lucky as he used to be.

Now my pup, 8 months, is leash reactive, and can be rough and tumble off leash. I believe with proper and diligent training he will get over it and my only concern will be him around other large unneutered dogs, as he is dominant. My pup was kennel raised to nearly four months and my mother became seriously ill shortly after I got him. He is lacking in socialization and training but we are working on it.


----------



## Falkosmom

4TheDawgies said:


> Its not even something that's not "threatening" to them. Its relieving tension. I've been bit by one of my dogs as a redirected frustrated bark. The first time it happened I wanted to kick my dogs butt. My TD advised me to never take offense to a bite like that, and to just stay out of the dogs way during this frustration phase. Why? because (and I have observed this) in every other part of the dogs life, that specific dog is submissive to me. In fact he won't even bite a sleeve I am holding because he doesn't want to disrespect me. He won't bark at me, only jumps on me when I encourage it, is a complete gentle man. But when frustrated, with adrenaline, and in fight drive they aren't paying as much attention to their surroundings and just take a bite out of what is convenient to them.
> 
> Even then its possible this was not a redirected attack. I will try and see if I can get a video of how my dogs gang up on each other in play. This happens in dog fights. When a dog is perceived as a danger, as weak, as unstable, etc. a dog will "out" that dog.
> Ie. dog barking in pitbulls face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other dogs join to watch and see whats going on. some others will jump in barking. Some will run up and immediately attack. Depends on the breed and the style they choose to handle the situation. If your dog was even close to the "group" around the pitbull then your dog could have been perceived as on of them "against" him.
> 
> When a dog is surrounded by multiple dogs, dogs barking at him and trying to ward him off or threaten him, it can put most any dog into a slight panic. Eyes dilate, they spin, keep tail under them and circle watching their surroundings.
> Or as some would handle it. let the anger build inside then give one really good "leave me alone". and Voila a pit whips around and grabs a dog who is part of this "pack" and a dog fight happens.
> 
> Now for a stable dog who is well exercised, level headed with a good temperament and the dogs are just territorial barking, this may just turn into a dog turns around and goes other way thing. Maybe some negotiation signals. Maybe a correction for a dog acting out of place (for dogs that know each other).
> 
> The reason this turns into a fight is because the original dog being "outed" to begin with is unstable and the rest of the pack wants nothing to do with it.
> 
> when you deal with an unstable dog of ANY breed, fights are bound to happen. Now why is it so dangerous? because we have a TERRIER. Does anyone here have yorkies? wheatons? rat terriers or jack russels?
> 
> can anyone tell me how HARD HEADED and INSISTENT these dogs are?
> 
> Terriers have fight drive, they have tenacity, they never give up. So when a terrier, ie pitbull, gets into a fight they are going to keep going until they feel what they wanted is accomplished.
> 
> This is why not only pitbulls, but other breeds with this tenacity, the fight drive etc. just don't belong in a dog park.
> 
> In theory and on paper, dog parks look like a GREAT idea! Everyone goes there to let their dogs have play dates.
> 
> But tell me, do any of you see wolves having play dates in the wild?
> Well when you have working type breeds like this, they don't want to have a play date any more than a wolf. Now obviously there are exceptions to the rules. But why not have a safe environment where its only two or three dogs instead of a pack of upwards of 100 dogs that can turn into a massive dog fight?
> Why risk it?
> 
> My dogs safety is worth more to me than trying to set up a play date at a dog park with a crapshoot of potentially very aggressive dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you do realize that by saying since mine can do it all can that you are generalizing. No just because your dogs get along with other dogs so well in public situations does not mean the breed as a whole does.
> 
> German Shepherds are pack dogs, are territorial, have a lot of fight drive, are very confident which also leads into dominance. So when dealing with a shepherd with another dog you quite often deal with a seemingly "mature" acting dog versus some goofy dog who wants to play and the shepherd wants nothing of it.
> 
> My Shepherds have no interest in playing with bizarre dogs they've never met before. Unless I personally show an interest.
> I work at a retail store and bring my dogs with me. Other people bring their dogs in and my dogs will actually continue laying on the floor watching the other dog. It confuses a lot of people.
> 
> So that being said, just because your specific dog park has many problems with pitbulls attacking, doesn't mean the breed as a whole struggles with attacks like this.
> 
> Dog fights at dog parks happen because people use dog parks as a form of exercise. Which is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. All of the energy the dog has saved up with an entire week of sitting in a house all day, and the dog lets loose at the dog park. Add excitement, energy, a little bit of dominance, power, and size and voila you have a bomb. Who wants to light it?
> 
> Ahhh the lovely dog over here who is barking in his face.
> 
> ANY dog, and I mean ANY dog has the ability, and has a breaking point that they will attack because they are not being exercised properly.
> 
> Again I find myself explaining that pitbulls are not "magical" in the sense of having different abilities to magically not show signals of attacking etc.
> Pitbulls give off just as many body language signals as any other dog when getting ready to attack. The more you learn about dog behavior the better you will see it.


Thank you for the input, it is greatly appreciated, a lot of good information there! 

When my pup was a little older, I always made sure to walk the trails first to burn off some energy before I took him into a dog park, very sound advice. I stopped taking him to the dog park long ago, but few people leash their dogs in this particular park in general. All in all, there really are few aggressive dogs in the general park itself.

You stated: 
_Terriers have fight drive, they have tenacity, they never give up. So when a terrier, ie pitbull, gets into a fight they are going to keep going until they feel what they wanted is accomplished. _

_This is why not only pitbulls, but other breeds with this tenacity, the fight drive etc. just don't belong in a dog park. _


This is just exactly what I have been trying to say throughout this thread, no more no less, it is what it is.


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover

The dog park I used to take Buddy to is members only (and it only costs $20 a year), has a keypad with a code to get in, pitbulls aren't allowed, and if your dog attacks another dog, you're out. Because it was a members only park, everyone got to know everyone else and their dogs. 
Dogs that were shy or appeared defensive were directed to the other fenced-in area to play. It worked well. Buddy used to like to just stand and watch the young dogs run. The above things are the only reason Buddy got to go there. 

With Rey's reactiveness, no way would I even consider a dog park for her.


----------



## Falkosmom

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> The dog park I used to take Buddy to is members only (and it only costs $20 a year), has a keypad with a code to get in, pitbulls aren't allowed, and if your dog attacks another dog, you're out. Because it was a members only park, everyone got to know everyone else and their dogs.
> Dogs that were shy or appeared defensive were directed to the other fenced-in area to play. It worked well. Buddy used to like to just stand and watch the young dogs run. The above things are the only reason Buddy got to go there.
> 
> With Rey's reactiveness, no way would I even consider a dog park for her.


We have a dog park like that nearby, invitation only, except it is concrete and pits are welcome. Any aggressive dog is booted as well, but I don't want my dog to be the first victim.


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover

Well, I figure this thread here really has no place to go. Either you like pitbulls or you don't. I don't. I tend to have a live and let live philosophy. I figure if people want to have pitbulls, then so be it. But keep them away from me, my grandkids and my dogs or I can and will take things into my own hands and I can be as deadly as they are, but with more focused intent to protect. Someone stated in one post here that it "wasn't fair." Coming from a person whose daddy told them from childhood that life isn't fair, I am not swayed by the inequality of the poor pit's fate to be bred as a dog of war and fighting, or the fact that they are sometimes nice doggies. Geeze, I read an article where a pregnant woman was killed by our own pitbull that she'd raised from a pup and her husband buried her with it after it was euthanized. How whacked is that? 

The fact is that they have the highest rate of human fatalities of any dog, and by a longshot when compared to other breeds. 

And that is the last thing I have to say in this thread.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> I don't have a problem with bully breeds in general either. I have seen no greater risk with them and I am a big fan of American bulldogs.
> 
> It is pit bulls, specifically, that are the problem. The worst problem with the pits are the owners. Most of the attacks I have witnessed should never have happened.


You do realize that "pits" is a general blanket term for any bully breed? 

I absolutely 100% agree with you though that the reason pits hurt people, other dogs, etc. is because of their owners. Either not socializing and raising them right, or not training them and putting them into risky situations. Unfortunately, it is the trent now for pits to be owned by individuals that were never taught how to treat and raise a dog correctly.



Lesley1905 said:


> Wow that's some rescue there. When I adopted my pit from a rescue they never told me any of that. I'm glad they didn't. That's really sad that they gave you that information. That shows that that particular rescue you spoke with knows NOTHING about dogs and the pitbull breed. Why would they even bother having a rescue if they solicit information like that. I guess I broke their rules....I have my pit around other dogs every day and have had nothing happen. She's never even seen a muzzle. Whoopsie!!!!


Well, that rescue is not far off from what most true pit bull advocates teach. Definitely not far off from what I counseled during adoptions of pit bulls at shelters and at my dog park. I don't think the muzzle is necessary as long as they're being responsible about keeping the dog leashed and trained of course, but I tell people constantly that dog parks are NO place for pit bulls. A small private meeting if your dog truely likes others and is well trained and stable? Perhaps. But people taking pits into dog parks and them hurting, killing other animals is what causes the hysteria, so for the breeds sake, it is a terrible idea. You will NEVER see me let a pit bull off leash around other dogs or in an area with NO other dogs. Why? Well, my dog may be great with other dogs, but the second another dog decides to attack her? Well, she's a pit bull. I'm going to expect her to finish the fight, even if she wouldn't have started it or pushed it. They're known for ending fights, of course. And that's going to go into the news and ALL they're going to hear is "Pit Bull killed border collie at local dog park". I don't want that. We actually banned pit bulls at our park recently because of some attacks in the area, and the staff personally not wanting it to get worse and turn into bsl. The news never caught wind of it, and we urge pit owners that come into not to take it badly and not to write about it, for their own sake.



KentuckyGSDLover said:


> The dog park I used to take Buddy to is members only (and it only costs $20 a year), has a keypad with a code to get in, pitbulls aren't allowed, and if your dog attacks another dog, you're out. Because it was a members only park, everyone got to know everyone else and their dogs.
> Dogs that were shy or appeared defensive were directed to the other fenced-in area to play. It worked well. Buddy used to like to just stand and watch the young dogs run. The above things are the only reason Buddy got to go there.
> 
> With Rey's reactiveness, no way would I even consider a dog park for her.


This is much like the park where I work. 



KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Well, I figure this thread here really has no place to go. Either you like pitbulls or you don't. I don't. I tend to have a live and let live philosophy. I figure if people want to have pitbulls, then so be it. But keep them away from me, my grandkids and my dogs or I can and will take things into my own hands and I can be as deadly as they are, but with more focused intent to protect. Someone stated in one post here that it "wasn't fair." Coming from a person whose daddy told them from childhood that life isn't fair, I am not swayed by the inequality of the poor pit's fate to be bred as a dog of war and fighting, or the fact that they are sometimes nice doggies. Geeze, I read an article where a pregnant woman was killed by our own pitbull that she'd raised from a pup and her husband buried her with it after it was euthanized. How whacked is that?
> 
> The fact is that they have the highest rate of human fatalities of any dog, and by a longshot when compared to other breeds.
> 
> And that is the last thing I have to say in this thread.


What are you contributing then? Other than your jaded hatred? 

Oh, and also. The FACT is that NOT all of the dogs in those statistics are even close to being a pit bull.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

DJEtzel said:


> You do realize that "pits" is a general blanket term for any bully breed?
> 
> I absolutely 100% agree with you though that the reason pits hurt people, other dogs, etc. is because of their owners. Either not socializing and raising them right, or not training them and putting them into risky situations. Unfortunately, it is the trent now for pits to be owned by individuals that were never taught how to treat and raise a dog correctly.




no its not just their owners and how they raise them and treat them. its also the breeding.


----------



## DJEtzel

4TheDawgies said:


> no its not just their owners and how they raise them and treat them. its also the breeding.


I'm not saying it's what causes the aggression manifesting, I'm saying that irresponsible owners are the direct cause of dog attacks on other dogs and people. Most of us here know that it is possible to own a HA or DA dog and NOT have it hurt a fly. It is all about management and training when you have a dog with issues.

I know that breeding can cause a dog to be nervey, dog aggressive, etc., but it's what people let their dogs get away with that causes the problems.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

"
Originally Posted by *DJEtzel*  
_You do realize that "pits" is a general blanket term for any bully breed? 
"_

_*You do realize that "pits" or "pitbull" is a LEGAL term for any APBT, Staffordshire Terrier, Bulldog, Mastiff or mix of any of these? It is the politically correct term.*_

_*Also, as we all know, a dog's temperament is partially genetic...so no, it is not all from the owner.*_

_*I find it appalling that there are people saying it is ok for a dog to bite a random bystander because another dog barked at it.*_

_*If a dog will randomly attack someone or another dog standing near by because of barking, it should not be in public. Period. This is why attacks happen in the first place.*_


----------



## sitstay

4TheDawgies said:


> no its not just their owners and how they raise them and treat them. its also the breeding.


Exactly, and responsible breeders and rescuers of the breed (or "type", if you want to be super exact) are the first to say that ignoring what can be hardwired into the dog does that particular dog and the whole breed/type a huge disservice.

I have no problem letting my female Aussie play with my adult son's American Bulldog. But I do not let my son's dog play with any of the three other dogs I own. Personality and temperament would be a disastrous mix with his dog and any of my three other dogs. 
Sheilah


----------



## DJEtzel

x0emiroxy0x said:


> "
> Originally Posted by *DJEtzel*
> _You do realize that "pits" is a general blanket term for any bully breed? _
> _"_
> 
> _*You do realize that "pits" or "pitbull" is a LEGAL term for any APBT, Staffordshire Terrier, Bulldog, Mastiff or mix of any of these? It is the politically correct term.*_
> 
> _*Also, as we all know, a dog's temperament is partially genetic...so no, it is not all from the owner.*_
> 
> _*I find it appalling that there are people saying it is ok for a dog to bite a random bystander because another dog barked at it.*_
> 
> _*If a dog will randomly attack someone or another dog standing near by because of barking, it should not be in public. Period. This is why attacks happen in the first place.*_


Uh huh? And your point? A previous poster was saying that he didn't mind bully breeds, but hated "pits". Uh... "pits" are a bunch of bully breeds... 

And once again, if you read my previous post, you didn't understand my statement. HUMANS are responsible for the dog. Whether they're not containing it properly, doing irresponsible or illegal things with it, or it's just a matter of training, it is humans/owners that are the reason pit bulls get out and bite people or kill dogs. 

As for your last statement, it's absolutely true. It's a nerve issue, and I've seen many otherwise great dogs put down because of it. Both pit bulls and non-pit bulls (as in, it happens to every breed). But it is for the best of the public with a dog is that unpredictable with that low of a threshold and the common owners out there that don't know how to manage a dog like that.


----------



## LaRen616

I love pittys/bullies, they are great dogs that often times end up with bad owners.

If the "Pitbull" didn't exist then they would be using Rotties, Dobermans and GSDs more than they already are. 

I have met a couple of aggressive GSDs that would have loved to take a bite out of me. I've been bitten and have scars from a Springer Spaniel. My cousin got her face bit by a Cocker Spaniel and my little cousin got severly mauled by a English Mastiff.

Any breed of dog can bite, any breed of dog can be dog aggressive and any breed of dog over 50 pounds can kill a person if they really wanted to.

It's a shame people are so against pitties/bullies especially owners of Rotties, GSDs and Dobermans because there are thousands of people out there against our breed of choice.


----------



## DJEtzel

LaRen616 said:


> I love pittys/bullies, they are great dogs that often times end up with bad owners.
> 
> If the "Pitbull" didn't exist then they would be using Rotties, Dobermans and GSDs more than they already are.
> 
> I have met a couple of aggressive GSDs that would have loved to take a bite out of me. I've been bitten and have scars from a Springer Spaniel. My cousin got her face bit by a Cocker Spaniel and my little cousin got severly mauled by a English Mastiff.
> 
> Any breed of dog can bite, any breed of dog can be dog aggressive and any breed of dog over 50 pounds can kill a person if they really wanted to.
> 
> It's a shame people are so against pitties/bullies especially owners of Rotties, GSDs and Dobermans because there are thousands of people out there against our breed of choice.


:thumbup:

And it's SO much easier to create a human aggressive GSD or Rottie that is a menace to society, than a pit bull. They were BRED to be less likely to bite humans.


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## Syaoransbear

Sometimes there are pits at the dog park, but not often at all. There was one that played with Chrono well and all of his body language screamed well socialized and non-aggressive. But yesterday there was an APBT that absolutely should not have been there. I didn't need to look at his testicles to know that he was a dominant male, his body language said that clearly. He was standing very still and stoically and he was fixating on dogs as they came in. His owner had him standing in the entrance to he dog park so every dog that came in would greet him, and he was also on a leash and pinch collar, and even a dog that doesn't have issues can react poorly when they are on a leash and other dogs are not. He growled and snapped at my fiance's sister's dog's face. The owner didn't even correct him, leave, apologize, or pull him back. She just stood there like an idiot and let her dog go after other dogs as they came through the entrance. If her attempt was to socialize her dog, I think all she did was unsocialize all the other dogs that came to the park.


----------



## 4TheDawgies

x0emiroxy0x said:


> "
> Originally Posted by *DJEtzel*
> _You do realize that "pits" is a general blanket term for any bully breed?
> "_
> 
> _*You do realize that "pits" or "pitbull" is a LEGAL term for any APBT, Staffordshire Terrier, Bulldog, Mastiff or mix of any of these? It is the politically correct term.*_
> 
> _*Also, as we all know, a dog's temperament is partially genetic...so no, it is not all from the owner.*_
> 
> _*I find it appalling that there are people saying it is ok for a dog to bite a random bystander because another dog barked at it.*_
> 
> _*If a dog will randomly attack someone or another dog standing near by because of barking, it should not be in public. Period. This is why attacks happen in the first place.*_



and where did ANYONE on this thread JUSTIFY a dog attacking a bystander???

ANY DOG OF ANY BREED OF ANY TYPE OF ANY AGE can have a redirected bite. 
So are you insinuating that you believe absolutely no dogs should ever be in public because the risk of biting someone is far too great?

you make some very absolute statements of extremely ignorant thoughts.... 

Couldn't do a better job at making yourself look worse.


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## LaRen616

Anyone see this?

The pitbull ban in Miami-Dade County forces Mark Buehrle?s family to settle elsewhere | Big League Stew - Yahoo! Sports


----------



## sitstay

DJEtzel said:


> :thumbup
> 
> And it's SO much easier to create a human aggressive GSD or Rottie that is a menace to society, than a pit bull. They were BRED to be less likely to bite humans.


But, they were also bred to be very, very animal aggressive. I just don't understand why it is so easy for people to be okay with accepting that Pit Bull's were bred to be excessively people friendly, and yet not be okay with giving a full aclnowledgement regarding WHY it was so important that they be so extremely people friendly. 

Animal aggression was a trait that was selectively bred for over many, many generations. That trait was just as important as the people friendly trait. Of course, not all Pits are as gamey as the original purpose calls for. But that predisposition for animal aggression is very real, and should never be discounted as something that can be trained or socialized away. For some dogs? Yes. For all the Pits out there? No. So I think it is probably a good idea to be even more discerning about allowing play dates with Pits.

Of course, these past couple of years I have gotten to where I don't really care that my dogs will or will not play with other dogs outside my own pack. I care if I can have my dogs out in public, on leash, and not have them act like idiots. That is something that I can train for and work on. But being able to play nice with other dogs they don't live with? Not so muchSheilah


----------



## GatorDog

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Well, I figure this thread here really has no place to go. Either you like pitbulls or you don't. I don't. I tend to have a live and let live philosophy. I figure if people want to have pitbulls, then so be it. But keep them away from me, my grandkids and my dogs or I can and will take things into my own hands and I can be as deadly as they are, but with more focused intent to protect. Someone stated in one post here that it "wasn't fair." Coming from a person whose daddy told them from childhood that life isn't fair, I am not swayed by the inequality of the poor pit's fate to be bred as a dog of war and fighting, or the fact that they are sometimes nice doggies. Geeze, I read an article where a pregnant woman was killed by our own pitbull that she'd raised from a pup and her husband buried her with it after it was euthanized. How whacked is that?
> 
> The fact is that they have the highest rate of human fatalities of any dog, and by a longshot when compared to other breeds.
> 
> And that is the last thing I have to say in this thread.


And a GSD isn't a dog of war...hmm. It's real lovely of you to threaten an entire breed of dog, by the way. Super classy. 

Coming from a person whose mommy taught me not to judge a book by its cover, I'm not swayed by your opinions on the breed, and I hope that others looking for real answers on this thread feel the same. So thanks for your jaded and uninformative opinion.


----------



## sitstay

4TheDawgies said:


> and where did ANYONE on this thread JUSTIFY a dog attacking a bystander???
> 
> ANY DOG OF ANY BREED OF ANY TYPE OF ANY AGE can have a redirected bite.
> So are you insinuating that you believe absolutely no dogs should ever be in public because the risk of biting someone is far too great?
> 
> you make some very absolute statements of extremely ignorant thoughts....
> 
> Couldn't do a better job at making yourself look worse.


I can testify that any dog can redirect. Tanner redirected on me and left me with a severely bruised thigh from the bites he gave me as a result.
Sheilah


----------



## Marnie

The original question was "Would you feel comfortable letting your dog around a pit bull?" No, not a strange one. Would I walk past a pit bull loose on the street? Absolutely. Would I allow my kid to run and play around a pit bull. Never. In my mind these things are common sense.

I can imagine the horror people feel when politicians start talking about breed banning. It only takes a couple high profile cases to panic the public and then the politicians start to strut and pretend they care about public safety. We all have to be realistic. Nobody can force deadbeats or thugs to control their dogs. The only other option that people can find is eliminating the dogs. Apparently they can't even make laws so these idiot owners carry insurance. What's the fix? We can't have dogs savaging kids, other dogs, not one, not any, ever. It doesn't really matter whose fault it is, it just can't go on. You can't just say it's all the owners fault. Make the owners do this or that because obviously nobody can make them do anything.

Pit bull owners can cry that their dogs bite less often than poodles or terriers but you just don't hear about poodles killing anyone. I still have the scar where my Mom's schnauzer bit completely thru my hand. As a kid we were all bitten by the neighborhood terror of a fox terrior. Those things were forgiven but it's impossible to forgive or forget the recent attack and death of a pit bull owner who fell on the floor in a seizure and was killed by her own dog. They seldom just bite, they attack and they continue until it's over. Instead of crying not fair, it's all the owners, a solution needs to be found.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> Uh huh? And your point? A previous poster was saying that he didn't mind bully breeds, but hated "pits". Uh... "pits" are a bunch of bully breeds...


Where I come from, pit bulls are American Pit Bull Terriers, one of the bully breeds. It is not a blanket term for bully breeds. So when I say I like bully breeds except for pits, it means I like any and all bully breed dogs except for American Pit Bull Terriers.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> As for your last statement, it's absolutely true. It's a nerve issue, and I've seen many otherwise great dogs put down because of it. Both pit bulls and non-pit bulls (as in, it happens to every breed). But it is for the best of the public with a dog is that unpredictable with that low of a threshold and the common owners out there that don't know how to manage a dog like that.


And common owners of dogs like that will never know how to manage dogs like that if they are repeatedly told that their dog is just like any other dog out there, regardless of breed. You can't manage it if you don't acknowledge it.


----------



## Falkosmom

LaRen616 said:


> I love pittys/bullies, they are great dogs that often times end up with bad owners.
> 
> If the "Pitbull" didn't exist then they would be using Rotties, Dobermans and GSDs more than they already are.
> 
> I have met a couple of aggressive GSDs that would have loved to take a bite out of me. I've been bitten and have scars from a Springer Spaniel. My cousin got her face bit by a Cocker Spaniel and my little cousin got severly mauled by a English Mastiff.
> 
> Any breed of dog can bite, any breed of dog can be dog aggressive and any breed of dog over 50 pounds can kill a person if they really wanted to.
> 
> It's a shame people are so against pitties/bullies especially owners of Rotties, GSDs and Dobermans because there are thousands of people out there against our breed of choice.


Denial is the fast track to breed specific legislation. Our beloved GSDs wil most surely make many of the lists. Damage control can be done as long as we acknowledge and embrace the inherent nature of our breeds, and manage what we have bred them to be.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> And it's SO much easier to create a human aggressive GSD or Rottie that is a menace to society, than a pit bull. They were BRED to be less likely to bite humans.


I have little faith that somebody creates a HA GSD or Rottie. I have owned many GSDs and a Rottie and a few other breeds, and I raise them all the same. There were those that were naturally more aggressive and then there were those that would help you rob my house. Same owner, same upbringing, just different genetics.


----------



## Falkosmom

Syaoransbear said:


> Sometimes there are pits at the dog park, but not often at all. There was one that played with Chrono well and all of his body language screamed well socialized and non-aggressive. But yesterday there was an APBT that absolutely should not have been there. I didn't need to look at his testicles to know that he was a dominant male, his body language said that clearly. He was standing very still and stoically and he was fixating on dogs as they came in. His owner had him standing in the entrance to he dog park so every dog that came in would greet him, and he was also on a leash and pinch collar, and even a dog that doesn't have issues can react poorly when they are on a leash and other dogs are not. He growled and snapped at my fiance's sister's dog's face. The owner didn't even correct him, leave, apologize, or pull him back. She just stood there like an idiot and let her dog go after other dogs as they came through the entrance. If her attempt was to socialize her dog, I think all she did was unsocialize all the other dogs that came to the park.


Ah, another shining example to support BSL. Another misguided dog owner that wanted a puppy to bring to the dog park.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Denial is the fast track to breed specific legislation. *Our beloved GSDs wil most surely make many of the lists. *Damage control can be done as long as we acknowledge and embrace the inherent nature of our breeds, and manage what we have bred them to be.


They already are on the BSL hit list. They are also places that have indeed already banned GSDs: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...aXRBNVg1bWNmYjNKaWc1M0lzT1E&hl=en&output=html


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> They already are on the BSL hit list. They are also places that have indeed already banned GSDs: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub...aXRBNVg1bWNmYjNKaWc1M0lzT1E&hl=en&output=html


I understand this, but the driving force behind BSL is the inordinate amount of attacks by pits on humans and animals, and the severity of the damage done. GSDs and other breeds are being swept up in the momentum.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Ah, another shining example to support BSL. Another misguided dog owner that wanted a puppy to bring to the dog park.


BSL is WRONG. No one should support it.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> I understand this, but the driving force behind BSL is the inordinate amount of attacks by pits on humans and animals, and the severity of the damage done. GSDs and other breeds are being swept up in the momentum.


Thats because of biased, inaccurate information, and uneducated people spreading it and making it worse. Our breed was targeted once, so were Dobermans & Rotties. Now the new favorite is Pitbull type breeds.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> BSL is WRONG. No one should support it.


That is not what I am saying. My statement meant that it is just such actions that make people clamor for BSL. I don't want it either, but if people deny what their dogs really are and fail to manage and control them, it is the way of the future.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Thats because of biased, inaccurate information, and uneducated people spreading it and making it worse. Our breed was targeted once, so were Dobermans & Rotties. Now the new favorite is Pitbull type breeds.


Most GSD, Rottie and Dobe owners do not deny the propensity for their dogs to be HA and sometimes DA, most manage, and a few bad owners make it bad for the rest. If you have read all of this thread, you will find post after post of people denying the genetics of the pit, therein lies the difference and the danger.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Falkosmom said:


> Ah, another shining example to support BSL. Another misguided dog owner that wanted a puppy to bring to the dog park.


Well this dog definitely was not a puppy . I'm not sure what that woman was doing there, she clearly had some idea that her dog had dog aggression problems. I think she was trying to fix them while putting every other dog in danger. I don't think dog or animal aggression is a good reason for BSL, otherwise we should ban all animals that kill other animals, like cats.


----------



## Falkosmom

Syaoransbear said:


> Well this dog definitely was not a puppy . I'm not sure what that woman was doing there, she clearly had some idea that her dog had dog aggression problems. I think she was trying to fix them while putting every other dog in danger. I don't think dog or animal aggression is a good reason for BSL, otherwise we should ban all animals that kill other animals, like cats.


Animal aggression that is acknowledged and managed should not be a reason for BSL. 

Animal aggression unmanaged and denied is extremely dangerous and should never be accepted or tolerated. 

Regarding killing cats, whenever I hear that all I can think about is my lovely little niece standing in front of my house holding her kitten. Whatever would have happened to her if some cat killing dog, regardless of breed, would have decided that her kitten must die? Would she have remained unharmed as she clutched her kitten to her face and chest in an effort to save its life?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Most GSD, Rottie and Dobe owners do not deny the propensity for their dogs to be HA and sometimes DA, most manage, and a few bad owners make it bad for the rest. If you have read all of this thread, you will find post after post of people denying the genetics of the pit, therein lies the difference and the danger.


I did read all this thread, and did NOT find anywhere that someone denied the genetics of Pit bull type dogs. Pitbulls type dogs are NOT supposed to be HA aggressive, but it isn't uncommon for them to be DA. BUT, as someone who works with pitbull type dogs, I have seen DA pitbulls and NON-DA pitbulls. And NO ONE said that it was acceptable for a DA dog, regardless of breed, to attack another animal or dog.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Well, I figure this thread here really has no place to go. Either you like pitbulls or you don't. I don't. I tend to have a live and let live philosophy. I figure if people want to have pitbulls, then so be it. But keep them away from me, my grandkids and my dogs or I can and will take things into my own hands and I can be as deadly as they are, but with more focused intent to protect. Someone stated in one post here that it "wasn't fair." Coming from a person whose daddy told them from childhood that life isn't fair, I am not swayed by the inequality of the poor pit's fate to be bred as a dog of war and fighting, or the fact that they are sometimes nice doggies. Geeze, I read an article where a pregnant woman was killed by our own pitbull that she'd raised from a pup and her husband buried her with it after it was euthanized. How whacked is that?
> 
> The fact is that they have the highest rate of human fatalities of any dog, and by a longshot when compared to other breeds.
> 
> And that is the last thing I have to say in this thread.


(***** Removed by Moderator, rude demeaning comment*****)

No one is forcing anyone to like pitbull type dogs. But at least be educated about them properly before going around spouting off insulting and ignorant comments.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I did read all this thread, and did NOT find anywhere that someone denied the genetics of Pit bull type dogs. Pitbulls type dogs are NOT supposed to be HA aggressive, but it isn't uncommon for them to be DA. BUT, as someone who works with pitbull type dogs, I have seen DA pitbulls and NON-DA pitbulls.


 
Pits are not normally bred to be HA and most of the ones I have met have not been. However, I guess I interpret things differently. My comprehension of so many of the posts on here is that the pit is like any other dog, some DA and some not. No, the DA pit takes things a lot further, and is not like most other DA dogs, not even remotely.


----------



## CookieTN

I'd take the same precautions with a Pit as I would with any other dog, since they aren't the only dogs that are capable of DA (even if they are more likely to have it), but that's just me. If someone wants to take extra precautions with Pits, nothing anyone can do about that. Nothing wrong with it either, I guess. What makes me angry is when people want them banned.


----------



## MountainGSDs

This thread is now bordering on ridiculous. Let's recap:

All dogs can bite.
Any breed can be DA.
Any breed can be HA.
Many of us don't like Bullies and their mixes. I also don't like poodles and taco bell dogs.
Bully supporters won't admit a problem and blame it on the news media and the public.
There is no solid data to support the theory that bullies are a problem so there for it doesn't exist and all news stories are false.


----------



## CookieTN

Geesh, nobody said--ah screw it, I'll just be repeating myself. Yeah, the thread is getting repetitive.


----------



## Falkosmom

CookieTN said:


> I'd take the same precautions with a Pit as I would with any other dog, since they aren't the only dogs that are capable of DA (even if they are more likely to have it), but that's just me. If someone wants to take extra precautions with Pits, nothing anyone can do about that. Nothing wrong with it either, I guess. What makes me angry is when people want them banned.


JessieWessie99

This one's for you. _She takes the same precautions with a pit as with any other dog_, although she admits to the likelihood of dog aggression. This is exactly what I am talking about, she makes no distinction. This is not about a pit's possible dog aggression, it is about the pit's above and beyond dog aggression, the desire to destroy the intended target, _very *unlike* other breeds._ This sentiment has been echoed over and over in this thread from both owner's and non owner's. 

I am sorry to come off sounding rude, disrepectful or arrogant. But it is tiresome going in circles on here where people keep denying the genetics of pits and then other people coming on here saying that nobody said that.


----------



## Dainerra

Falkosmom said:


> I understand this, but the driving force behind BSL is the inordinate amount of attacks by pits on humans and animals, and the severity of the damage done. GSDs and other breeds are being swept up in the momentum.


GSDs were being feared and banned long before the pitbulls was even heard of by Joe Public. Actually making owning a certain breed illegal seems to be a bi-product of a sue-happy society and a need for politicians to look like they are doing something.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> And common owners of dogs like that will never know how to manage dogs like that if they are repeatedly told that their dog is just like any other dog out there, regardless of breed. You can't manage it if you don't acknowledge it.


How are their dogs different? If they have a behavioral problem, obviously that is a difference... if they are DA people do tell them...



Falkosmom said:


> I have little faith that somebody creates a HA GSD or Rottie. I have owned many GSDs and a Rottie and a few other breeds, and I raise them all the same. There were those that were naturally more aggressive and then there were those that would help you rob my house. Same owner, same upbringing, just different genetics.


What? I've see so many fear aggressive GSDs and Rotties end up in shelters, it is not hard to create one. Lack of socialization in a poorly bred dog is usually enough. 



Falkosmom said:


> I understand this, but the driving force behind BSL is the inordinate amount of attacks by pits on humans and animals, and the severity of the damage done. GSDs and other breeds are being swept up in the momentum.


GSDs and other breeds are being swept up because they are attacking and killing people/dogs, too... and the world is in LOVE with the idea of BSL when this happens.



Falkosmom said:


> Most GSD, Rottie and Dobe owners do not deny the propensity for their dogs to be HA and sometimes DA, most manage, and a few bad owners make it bad for the rest. If you have read all of this thread, you will find post after post of people denying the genetics of the pit, therein lies the difference and the danger.


I haven't found anyone here that is a "pit person" deny the genetics of a pit bull.... just as no one denies that GSDs have a tendency to nip/herd.



Falkosmom said:


> Pits are not normally bred to be HA and most of the ones I have met have not been. However, I guess I interpret things differently. My comprehension of so many of the posts on here is that the pit is like any other dog, some DA and some not. No, the DA pit takes things a lot further, and is not like most other DA dogs, not even remotely.


No, the DA UNSTABLE dog takes things a lot further. Whether that is a pit or not, it just so happens that SOOOO many of the pits bred for DA are also being bred poorly, resulting in nervey unstable dogs. I saw the after effects of a large shepherd mix going over threshold in a play group at a shelter where I worked and ripping the JAW off of a greyhound mix. The other dog wasn't fighting back at all... and almost died. Likewise I've seen two very dominante female pitties getting along ok and mildly correcting each other for dominance without starting a brawl. I've also seen a pittie almost kill another dog through redirection and normal correction from other breeds. NOT every DA or dominant pit bull takes things as far as the dogs that end up on the news. ABSOLUTELY not true.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> Well, that rescue is not far off from what most true pit bull advocates teach. Definitely not far off from what I counseled during adoptions of pit bulls at shelters and at my dog park. I don't think the muzzle is necessary as long as they're being responsible about keeping the dog leashed and trained of course, but I tell people constantly that dog parks are NO place for pit bulls. A small private meeting if your dog truely likes others and is well trained and stable? Perhaps. But people taking pits into dog parks and them hurting, killing other animals is what causes the hysteria, so for the breeds sake, it is a terrible idea. You will NEVER see me let a pit bull off leash around other dogs or in an area with NO other dogs. Why? Well, my dog may be great with other dogs, but the second another dog decides to attack her? Well, she's a pit bull. I'm going to expect her to finish the fight, even if she wouldn't have started it or pushed it. They're known for ending fights, of course. And that's going to go into the news and ALL they're going to hear is "Pit Bull killed border collie at local dog park". I don't want that. We actually banned pit bulls at our park recently because of some attacks in the area, and the staff personally not wanting it to get worse and turn into bsl. The news never caught wind of it, and we urge pit owners that come into not to take it badly and not to write about it, for their own sake.


Excuse me, which way is it? Either the pit is like any other dog, sometimes DA, sometimes poorly bred, whatever... or it is unlike other dogs and going to finish or end the fight? How about so many attacks by pits in dog parks that they become a banned breed at the park? The pit is not like any other breed and should never be treated as such by its owners or any other person that encounters one. Surprising how so many on here can say it so much better than I can and then the next minute take it away.


----------



## CookieTN

Falkosmom said:


> JessieWessie99
> 
> This one's for you. _She takes the same precautions with a pit as with any other dog_, although she admits to the likelihood of dog aggression. This is exactly what I am talking about, she makes no distinction. This is not about a pit's possible dog aggression, it is about the pit's above and beyond dog aggression, the desire to destroy the intended target, _very *unlike* other breeds._ This sentiment has been echoed over and over in this thread from both owner's and non owner's.
> 
> I am sorry to come off sounding rude, disrepectful or arrogant. But it is tiresome going in circles on here where people keep denying the genetics of pits and then other people coming on here saying that nobody said that.



What I mean is, if I'm so busy being uber careful around Pits, and then my dog gets attacked by a different breed because I'm more lax with other breeds, it's not any more or less excusable because the dog wasn't a Pit. Why not just be uber careful with all breeds?


----------



## chelle

DJEtzel said:


> ....Well, that rescue is not far off from what most true pit bull advocates teach. Definitely not far off from what I counseled during adoptions of pit bulls at shelters and at my dog park. I don't think the muzzle is necessary as long as they're being responsible about keeping the dog leashed and trained of course, but I tell people constantly that dog parks are NO place for pit bulls. A small private meeting if your dog truely likes others and is well trained and stable? Perhaps. But people taking pits into dog parks and them hurting, *killing other animals is what causes the hysteria, so for the breeds sake, it is a terrible idea.* You will NEVER see me let a pit bull off leash around other dogs or in an area with NO other dogs. Why? Well, my dog may be great with other dogs, but the second another dog decides to attack her? *Well, she's a pit bull. I'm going to expect her to finish the fight, even if she wouldn't have started it or pushed it. They're known for ending fights, of course*. And that's going to go into the news and ALL they're going to hear is "Pit Bull killed border collie at local dog park". *I don't want that. We actually banned pit bulls at our park recently because of some attacks in the area, and the staff personally not wanting it to get worse and turn into bsl. The news never caught wind of it,* and we urge pit owners that come into not to take it badly and *not to write about it*, for their own sake.
> 
> What are you contributing then? Other than your jaded hatred?


The most telling quote of this 350 whatever post thread. And yes, I've read every single post. I did drop out long ago but this thing has taken on some kind of nine-live thing.

You've just basically backed up everything ever said by others, yet end it by referring to some poster's "jaded hatred" when seemingly, they didn't say anything different that you did above.? :headbang: 

I take some offense to the statement, _"killing other animals is what causes the hysteria, so for the breed's sake..." _For the BREED'S sake? How about for the sake of the other animals?

You admit to _"attacks in the area,"_ are relieved the news _"never caught wind of it,"_ and urge owners _"not to write about it."_ So you can say all these things, yet be argumentative and insulting to others when they simply echo the same?


----------



## Lesley1905

Falkosmom said:


> That is not what I am saying. My statement meant that it is just such actions that make people clamor for BSL. I don't want it either, but if people deny what their dogs really are and fail to manage and control them, it is the way of the future.


It's going to be a domino effect. Once pitbulls are gone, people will start focusing on other breeds. Next up, our german shepherds, guaranteed. Why do some neighborhoods ban GSD's as well? I had to lie on an application before and say Brody was a Belgium shepherd mix. I don't think anyone should be allowed to tell people what kind of dogs they are or aren't allowed to have. I agree, some pitbulls have bad genes and that's unfortunate. Some GSD's have bad genes as well. I guess they should ban sports cars also, since more people die in those then anything. They are made to go fast, humans make them go fast, and then they die from it.


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## Lesley1905

I think we should just all agree to disagree. I don't think we are going to change eachothers opinions at all. I guess you can add another thing not to bring up at the dinner table...religion, politics, and now dog breeds.


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## JakodaCD OA

this thread is heading to borderline ridiculous..

I think it's a full moon tonite, gravitational 'pull' must be bringing out the 'nasty' in some..

TIME FOR A GROUP HUG ! AND GET BACK ON TOPIC!


----------



## CookieTN

I apologize if anything came out as rude for my part...didn't intend it that way.


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## JakodaCD OA

thank you tiffany, not many bother to apologize , it's appreciated


----------



## misterW

Well, I have found this to be a worthwhile discussion in any case. Good to hear a variety of viewpoints and it has certainly helped me decide my course of action as far as the friend's pitbull.


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## JakodaCD OA

misterw, am glad you got some usefull information


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

If pits are banned the general public will not just go after gsd.
They are not trying to ban pits because they are bored with nothing to do.

Instead of making false claims and trying to scare other dog owners into protesting bsl, as well as denying every problem, why don't you take your dog in public and show people how great it is? And title it too.

It's the owner not the dog is the most ridiculous statement. So it's my fault my dog is borderline fear aggressive? No it is genetics.

All this bs about pits not beig human aggressive is ridiculous. Are you going to claim the thousands of human attacks were originally directed at other dogs but we're redirected? I wouldn't be surprised.

Obviously not all pits are bad, but enough are to cause a bad name.

The majority of German shepherds aren't. That is why there is no calling to ban them. A few little cities do, big deal. That is because there are responsible owners like me who take care of the problem. Too many idiots own pits and don't take precautions with a breed prone to attack.

Obviously dejetzel you are a responsible owner. We aren't questioning that. That is why I am confused why you are making so many crazy claims with no evidence and twisting facts about things like the att and telling people it is their fault hey got attacked by a pit.

It is fine to love your breed. But as the saying goes, love is blind. In this case you are so blinded by your love that you can't imagine your breed could do anything wrong. Like a mother with a serial killer son. I hope you decide to promote your breed by taking your dog out instead of denying and attacking others.

Fallo and chelle, no matter what you say every fact or opinion will be denied. You might as well give up. This is no longer a debate. You might as well talk to your dog because no evidence you show will change this persons mind and you will continue to be attacked.

Once again, I don't hate pits, I hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make other dog owners scared for their breed.


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## vicky2200

I would be as concerned about my dog meeting a pitbull as I am about her meeting any dog. Daisy kind of does the same thing when she meets a dog. She acts tough ( I think she wants to see how the dog will react) and it is really a terrible situation. She will actually run and hide from a dog if given the choice, but if I make her meet a dog she does that. I dont have her meet any dogs anymore because I am afraid she is going to get attacked due to her way of approaching a dog. I wouldn't suggest letting your dog meet new dogs until she can properly do so. Or find someone who is getting a puppy and introduce her to the puppy. She will likely do better, and you can have regular play dates and she will be used to the dog when it is older (if you insist upon your dog having friends. My dogs do not have friends.)


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## Dainerra

a few little cities ban GSDs? common lists include Malamutes, Airedales, GSDs, rotties, etc. Check out all of the threads about trying to find homeowners insurance that will cover a GSD. Right now, there are 75 breeds banned somewhere in the US.

also, the problem is that many breed bans say "any dog that LOOKS like...." so, if the person on duty today thinks that your dog looks like a pit, then it is put down. No ifs, ands, or buts. It doesn't matter in some cases if you have a pedigree to prove that your dog is a different breed.


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## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> How are their dogs different? If they have a behavioral problem, obviously that is a difference... if they are DA people do tell them...
> What? I've see so many fear aggressive GSDs and Rotties end up in shelters, it is not hard to create one. Lack of socialization in a poorly bred dog is usually enough.
> GSDs and other breeds are being swept up because they are attacking and killing people/dogs, too... and the world is in LOVE with the idea of BSL when this happens.
> *I haven't found anyone here that is a "pit person" deny the genetics of a pit bull*.... just as no one denies that GSDs have a tendency to nip/herd.
> No, the DA UNSTABLE dog takes things a lot further. Whether that is a pit or not, it just so happens that SOOOO many of the pits bred for DA are also being bred poorly, resulting in nervey unstable dogs. I saw the after effects of a large shepherd mix going over threshold in a play group at a shelter where I worked and ripping the JAW off of a greyhound mix. The other dog wasn't fighting back at all... and almost died. Likewise I've seen two very dominante female pitties getting along ok and mildly correcting each other for dominance without starting a brawl. I've also seen a pittie almost kill another dog through redirection and normal correction from other breeds. NOT every DA or dominant pit bull takes things as far as the dogs that end up on the news. ABSOLUTELY not true.


I am curious as to what exactly do you mean by "the genetics of a pit bull"?
If you refer to the dog fighting behavior (and agree on what breed you really mean by the term pit bull, of course), then I would assume that

And naturally, what exactly do you mean by the term "Pit Bull"?

Are you referring to the American Staffordshire Terrier? You realize of course that the AKC doesn't even recognize the term "pit bull", do you not?

Or maybe you are as confused as most news accounts of pit bulls and lumping many different breeds and even many mixed breeds in the same pile as a "pit bull".

Ever take the well known test on the web about recognizing a real pit bull dog from the many many "look a likes"?


----------



## codmaster

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If pits are banned the general public will not just go after gsd.
> They are not trying to ban pits because they are bored with nothing to do.
> 
> Instead of making false claims and trying to scare other dog owners into protesting bsl, as well as denying every problem, why don't you take your dog in public and show people how great it is? And title it too.
> 
> It's the owner not the dog is the most ridiculous statement. So it's my fault my dog is borderline fear aggressive? No it is genetics.
> 
> All this bs about pits not beig human aggressive is ridiculous. Are you going to claim the thousands of human attacks were originally directed at other dogs but we're redirected? I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Obviously not all pits are bad, but enough are to cause a bad name.
> 
> The majority of German shepherds aren't. That is why there is no calling to ban them. A few little cities do, big deal. That is because there are responsible owners like me who take care of the problem. Too many idiots own pits and don't take precautions with a breed prone to attack.
> 
> Obviously dejetzel you are a responsible owner. We aren't questioning that. That is why I am confused why you are making so many crazy claims with no evidence and twisting facts about things like the att and telling people it is their fault hey got attacked by a pit.
> 
> It is fine to love your breed. But as the saying goes, love is blind. In this case you are so blinded by your love that you can't imagine your breed could do anything wrong. Like a mother with a serial killer son. I hope you decide to promote your breed by taking your dog out instead of denying and attacking others.
> 
> Fallo and chelle, no matter what you say every fact or opinion will be denied. You might as well give up. This is no longer a debate. You might as well talk to your dog because no evidence you show will change this persons mind and you will continue to be attacked.
> 
> Once again, I don't hate pits, I hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make other dog owners scared for their breed.


X0,

Just tell me one thing, based on your obvious great knowledge of and experience with pit bulls - WHAT IS A PIT BULL? Am Staff terrier? Others?

Could you please just give us all the benefit of your great knowledge and give us all a definitive opinion.

That way we can all clear up any confusion by what all the other experts in the breed (on this forum) mean when they talk about the "PIT BULL" and their genetics and their fearsome disposition actually mean.

Oh, and also how to tell the difference between the true fearsome pit bull and all of the dogs that are confused with them?

Thank you so much!


BTW - I would much rather approach a stray pit bull than many many of the GSD's that I have come across.


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## chelle

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If pits are banned the general public will not just go after gsd. They are not trying to ban pits because they are bored with nothing to do.


I do agree with this - I don't think it is about bored people looking to move on to yet another breed to ban.

The dogs that make the news kill or attack and severely injure. Ankle biters will never make the news unless they can actually find a way to kill a dog/person and then they'd be all OVER the news because that doesn't happen too often. 

There was mention earlier about how a MinPin could puncture a jugular and kill you. I suppose that is physically possible, but the likelihood is so incredibly small that if it did happen, it would make every headline nationwide.

The media is very powerful and drama driven.

*Whatever breed of dog* makes news headlines with attacks, deaths and injuries will get the public's attention and *that* is where breed bans are born. 

Sure, it could be GSD's next if the ratio of poorly bred GSD's overwhelms the number of responsible owners and results in news headlines because a GSD, along with so many others, are capable of causing great harm. 

I've heard this arguement many times here about how they'll "just move on to the next breed to ban" and I don't buy into that. They'll "move on" to whatever dog breed is coming up in the headlines.

Don't let any breed you love get into the headlines -- and not just by excluding the reporting, or discouraging the reporting -- but by being sure it isn't allowed to happen in the first place.


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## 4TheDawgies

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If pits are banned the general public will not just go after gsd.
> They are not trying to ban pits because they are bored with nothing to do.
> 
> *Instead of making false claims and trying to scare other dog owners into protesting bsl, as well as denying every problem, why don't you take your dog in public and show people how great it is? And title it too.*


My dog is being titled and has titles already. She is getting out there. People love her and she changes minds. 




x0emiroxy0x said:


> *It's the owner not the dog is the most ridiculous statement. So it's my fault my dog is borderline fear aggressive? No it is genetics.*
> 
> All this bs about pits not beig human aggressive is ridiculous. Are you going to claim the thousands of human attacks were originally directed at other dogs but we're redirected? I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Obviously not all pits are bad, but enough are to cause a bad name.
> 
> The majority of German shepherds aren't. That is why there is no calling to ban them. A few little cities do, big deal. That is because there are responsible owners like me who take care of the problem. Too many idiots own pits and don't take precautions with a breed prone to attack.
> 
> Obviously dejetzel you are a responsible owner. We aren't questioning that. That is why I am confused why you are making so many crazy claims with no evidence and twisting facts about things like the att and telling people it is their fault hey got attacked by a pit.
> 
> It is fine to love your breed. But as the saying goes, love is blind. In this case you are so blinded by your love that you can't imagine your breed could do anything wrong. Like a mother with a serial killer son. I hope you decide to promote your breed by taking your dog out instead of denying and attacking others.
> 
> Fallo and chelle, no matter what you say every fact or opinion will be denied. You might as well give up. This is no longer a debate. You might as well talk to your dog because no evidence you show will change this persons mind and you will continue to be attacked.
> 
> Once again, I don't hate pits, I hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make other dog owners scared for their breed.


Its not genetics its also how you treat them and train them. 
Nah I'm not denying it, I'm proving it with my dog. My dog is not a monster


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## Dainerra

the people who are "moving on" won't be bored politicians looking for something to ban. It will be those "bad owners" that we keep talking about. When the thugs no longer have pits, do you think they are just going to quit owning dogs??? No, they will go back to GSDs, dobies, rotties, cano coreso (spelling?) and other breeds. The incidents with those dogs will increase and then they will be banned. Then they will get a different type of dog, and on and on.

Growing up, I knew only 1 person who owned a dobie. She was actually a sweet dog, but pressure from the neighbors forced the owner to give her up. Why? because of the reputation that dobies had at that time. The same hysteria that makes people cross to the other side of the street when you walk your GSD. 

What gets the dogs into the headlines is irresponsible owners. It's rather a catch-22.


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## chelle

Dainerra said:


> the people who are "moving on" won't be bored politicians looking for something to ban. It will be those "bad owners" that we keep talking about. When the thugs no longer have pits, do you think they are just going to quit owning dogs??? No, they will go back to GSDs, dobies, rotties, cano coreso (spelling?) and other breeds. The incidents with those dogs will increase and then they will be banned. Then they will get a different type of dog, and on and on.
> 
> Growing up, I knew only 1 person who owned a dobie. She was actually a sweet dog, but pressure from the neighbors forced the owner to give her up. Why? because of the reputation that dobies had at that time. The same hysteria that makes people cross to the other side of the street when you walk your GSD.
> 
> What gets the dogs into the headlines is irresponsible owners. It's rather a catch-22.


I very much agree, but doubt the thugs will be giving up their pits anytime soon UNLESS they can find an even tougher dog to fight dog-to-dog. I'm not aware of what breeds those are, but I'm sure they'll figure it out.


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## selzer

I don't know. The thugs want a dog that is intimidating. And when you look at schutzhund protection work, they do look intimidating. If pits are banned, the pit and pit-look-alikes will be moving on to other breeds that they see as interesting. GSDs are interesting, they have no lack of fangs. They are strong, and big, and toothy, even wolf-like. 

I can see thugs going after working line shepherds big time. Lots of criminals are wary of the dogs, but others would be perfectly happy to get puppies and train them up to be aggressive. And the more protective, the more protection work in their background the better. 

They will take the puppy, keep them away from people, chain it, kick it, starve it, to get a sharper, meaner dog. They will breed it to the sharpest, meanest, biggest dogs they can find. And GSDs or Rottweilers or Bull-mastiffs will replace pitts. 

Breed specific legislation is not our friend. The only thing I think that can combat the problems with irresponsible and even criminal management of dogs, is to make the penalties for violations, especially those that cause damage, serious injury significant.


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## chelle

selzer said:


> Breed specific legislation is not our friend. The only thing I think that can combat the problems with irresponsible and even *criminal management of dogs, is to make the penalties for violations, especially those that cause damage, serious injury significant*.


I don't know if dog fighting is a felony, but if it isn't it should be. I'd like to see huge financial penalties to go along with that. Add in some very stiff minimums of prison time as well. It *might* make a very small dent in curbing the thug-draw of breeding these dogs to fight. Maybe. I don't know. It is a very depressing picture all around. I find the plight of the pit very sad. They're taking a natural inclination of the dog and exploiting it so horribly. Could you take all DA tendencies out of the pit over time and careful breeding? Maybe? But not when you have so many actively working to keep it in the breed.


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## sitstay

chelle said:


> I don't know if dog fighting is a felony, but if it isn't it should be.


I think it is a felony in all states now. Wyoming was the last hold out, but I think they finally criminalized it in 2008. We had an uphill fight to make it a felony here in Idaho, but the Michael Vick case pushed us over the top and we got it done just before Wyoming.
Sheilah


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

To go back to the question, I would not allow my dog to play with almost *any *Terrier. I cannot think of one right now that I would say yes to. 

My dogs would not be allowed to play with Akitas, Shibas or Malamutes. As much as I love them, maybe not even a Chow Chow. 

Other breeds that are hard for me to read, I will skip. 

After that, I look at mixes of these breeds as a likely no. 

Basically if the dog has dog aggression in their breed standard/expectations (like herding, pointing, retrieving are for others), not worth risking it to me. 

Then for the dogs out of the "my dangerous to other dogs" pool, I evaluate on a case by case basis. So just because it's a Beagle (bred to live and hunt in large packs so typically should be good with other dogs) doesn't mean I'll just let it happen. I watch the dog and have some "set up for success" interactions first. 

I think people who have smaller dogs develop a more cautious attitude (or should). My 36# dogs are goners if I am not aware and realistic.

*Socializing Your Pit Bull - Pit Bull Rescue Central*

*Pit Bull Rescue Central Dog Park Policy Position Statement*

*Dog Park - Pit Bull Rescue Central*

http://www.badrap.org/dog-parks


http://www.badrap.org/node/98


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## codmaster

How many folks on this forum have written about their at least sometimes DA GSD? Seems to me like quite a few, - is that all genetics like it is "bred" into a GSD to be DA?

if so, thank goodness, since now i don't have to shoulder any of the blame.


Of course we also have to mention that my guy (4yo male GSD) actually loves puppies and is extremely gentle with them even if the little ones jump on his head. And he mostly ignores other dogs and only reacts to big aggressive appearing male dogs who usually stare at him.


----------



## selzer

I think and a sheep herder and sheep guardian, I would expect our dogs to be somewhat reluctant to accept foreign dogs without being specifically conditioned to ignore them, for example, training classes to provide some socialization. So, I think an argument can be made that our dogs have a measure of dog aggression in their genetic origins.


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## Falkosmom

CookieTN said:


> What I mean is, if I'm so busy being uber careful around Pits, and then my dog gets attacked by a different breed because I'm more lax with other breeds, it's not any more or less excusable because the dog wasn't a Pit. Why not just be uber careful with all breeds?


I hope that you did not feel that I was singling you out per se, I was just using your message in a general sense to make a point. My apologies if I was not clear.


----------



## Falkosmom

Lesley1905 said:


> It's going to be a domino effect. Once pitbulls are gone, people will start focusing on other breeds. Next up, our german shepherds, guaranteed. Why do some neighborhoods ban GSD's as well? I had to lie on an application before and say Brody was a Belgium shepherd mix. I don't think anyone should be allowed to tell people what kind of dogs they are or aren't allowed to have. I agree, some pitbulls have bad genes and that's unfortunate. Some GSD's have bad genes as well. I guess they should ban sports cars also, since more people die in those then anything. They are made to go fast, humans make them go fast, and then they die from it.


*I do not support BSL*, but we will all suffer if pit owner's don't pull thier heads out of the sand.


----------



## Falkosmom

Lesley1905 said:


> I think we should just all agree to disagree. I don't think we are going to change eachothers opinions at all. I guess you can add another thing not to bring up at the dinner table...religion, politics, and now dog breeds.


I, for one, am not trying to change anybody's opinion. I am only trying to give OP an honest answer to his question. And just based on what the pit lover's have had to say about the breed, I think he has all the information he needs to make an educated decision on what he should do about his situation.


----------



## Falkosmom

chelle said:


> Don't let any breed you love get into the headlines -- and not just by excluding the reporting, or discouraging the reporting -- but by being sure it isn't allowed to happen in the first place.


That is what I would call educated and responsible dog ownership.


----------



## Falkosmom

Dainerra said:


> It will be those "bad owners" that we keep talking about. *When the thugs no longer have pits*, do you think they are just going to quit owning dogs???
> 
> What gets the dogs into the headlines is irresponsible owners. It's rather a catch-22.


The pits owned by thugs that I have encountered are seldom the problem. It is the nice family that is uneducated, (and I don't mean lacks a college degree) that are the irresponsible ones. It is the lack of knowledge about their chosen breed and the resulting ignorance in how to manage them that causes them to be irresponsible owners.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> Excuse me, which way is it? Either the pit is like any other dog, sometimes DA, sometimes poorly bred, whatever... or it is unlike other dogs and going to finish or end the fight? How about so many attacks by pits in dog parks that they become a banned breed at the park? The pit is not like any other breed and should never be treated as such by its owners or any other person that encounters one. Surprising how so many on here can say it so much better than I can and then the next minute take it away.


You need to realize that ANY terrier is like this. Any dog that is bred for tenacity. My 9lb rat terrier has been very eagerly pounced on by large puppies or very rough dogs before in an aggressive manner, and she will snap and go after a dog until I physically make her stop. She would NEVER start a fight like that, but she will sure as heck end it, bloodshed or not. That is a breed trait in the group and it doesn't single them out any moreso than herding or retrieving. Just something bred into them, but it doesn't make them any more dangerous. I don't know how I'm coming across as wishy-washy, really.



chelle said:


> The most telling quote of this 350 whatever post thread. And yes, I've read every single post. I did drop out long ago but this thing has taken on some kind of nine-live thing.
> 
> You've just basically backed up everything ever said by others, yet end it by referring to some poster's "jaded hatred" when seemingly, they didn't say anything different that you did above.? :headbang:


How did I back ANYTHING up?



> I take some offense to the statement, _"killing other animals is what causes the hysteria, so for the breed's sake..." _For the BREED'S sake? How about for the sake of the other animals?
> 
> You admit to _"attacks in the area,"_ are relieved the news _"never caught wind of it,"_ and urge owners _"not to write about it."_ So you can say all these things, yet be argumentative and insulting to others when they simply echo the same?


Excuse me? Yes, there have been one or two fatal or near fatal pit bull attacks on people (haven't heard of any animal fatalities) in the last year or so in the area. For completely different reasons, we banned pit bulls from our park (NEVER had a single fight or scuffle with one to cause it for any reason like that...) and yes, we are glad that the act of doing so never got taken into a different context and used AGAINST pit bulls in the news, so when pit bull owners come in and throw fits about our policy and threaten to write letters to the editor, we urge them not to, to keep the spot light off of the "banning of breeds" that we've done, so that politicians in the city do not think that it is a better idea to ban pit bulls, because we do not want to see BSL enacted here. Extremely confused as to how this is echoing?



x0emiroxy0x said:


> It's the owner not the dog is the most ridiculous statement. *So it's my fault my dog is borderline fear aggressive?* No it is genetics.


Nope, it's your fault that you let him out in public out of your control and put him in a position to bite someone, way to go! 

^ Owner's fault the dog is now in the news and the city is banning their breed, even though the dog was fear aggressive for other reasons. Dog could have stayed inside or muzzled for the rest of his life and the city wouldn't be banning pits or GSDs right now! 




> All this bs about pits not beig human aggressive is ridiculous. Are you going to claim the thousands of human attacks were originally directed at other dogs but we're redirected? I wouldn't be surprised.


Nope, they are bred specifically to be non-aggressive to humans! The history is all there to prove non-rediculous. The thing is, when irresponsible people chain them up from 6 weeks (so they don't learn bite inhibition!) to 3 years in the yard and don't train them or socialize them (and they are already poorly bred and unstable dogs 9 times out of 10 because they are from fighting rings or the neighborhood puppy breeders who are no doubt breeding close relative dogs) and they spend all that time watching these strange creatures run up and down the sidewalk screaming (children), when that chain finally breaks, all of that built up energy, frustration, and prey drive manifests in the form of an attack. You don't often hear about well-trained, well-bred, therapy dogs who get plenty of exercise (the typical responsible owner from this very board) randomly attacking kids or adults, do you? That's because there is a very significant reason these attacks are happening, and they are not all the dogs' faults. 



> Obviously dejetzel you are a responsible owner. We aren't questioning that. That is why I am confused why you are making so many crazy claims with no evidence and twisting facts about things like the att and telling people it is their fault hey got attacked by a pit.
> 
> It is fine to love your breed. But as the saying goes, love is blind. In this case you are so blinded by your love that you can't imagine your breed could do anything wrong. Like a mother with a serial killer son. I hope you decide to promote your breed by taking your dog out instead of denying and attacking others.


I have said many times that pit bulls are bred to be dog aggressive, and that it is in their genes. I will forever be a nature side of the argument believer, but there is no doubt that humans can substantially change the way dogs would behave naturally. I know exactly how much damage the typically pit bull is capable of doing (just like the typically GSD or Rat Terrier) and I manage them accordingly, but to say that they are ALL bad, or that they cannot be trusted as a breed really hurts me because I am trying so hard to make people give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not getting defensive or spewing crazy claims with no evidence. I take my (fosters, friends... I do not currently own unfortunately) pits out ALL the time as I previously said and make people love them because they are great dogs. 

Also, I never said it is the victims fault that they got attacked by a dog...?? I'm sure in some cases it might be, but I definitely know that typically it is not the small childs fault that the dog attacked them.



> Fallo and chelle, no matter what you say every fact or opinion will be denied. You might as well give up. This is no longer a debate. You might as well talk to your dog because no evidence you show will change this persons mind and you will continue to be attacked.
> 
> Once again, I don't hate pits, I hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make other dog owners scared for their breed.


It is the exact same situation in reverse for pit lovers. We can never show you any evidence that pit bulls are good dogs, and we continue being attacked and our dogs are called baby killers on the street. 

I ALSO hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make the breed bad.



codmaster said:


> I am curious as to what exactly do you mean by "the genetics of a pit bull"?
> If you refer to the dog fighting behavior (and agree on what breed you really mean by the term pit bull, of course), then I would assume that
> 
> And naturally, what exactly do you mean by the term "Pit Bull"?
> 
> Are you referring to the American Staffordshire Terrier? You realize of course that the AKC doesn't even recognize the term "pit bull", do you not?
> 
> Or maybe you are as confused as most news accounts of pit bulls and lumping many different breeds and even many mixed breeds in the same pile as a "pit bull".
> 
> Ever take the well known test on the web about recognizing a real pit bull dog from the many many "look a likes"?


I'm kind of confused by your sentence structure. I'm talking about the dog aggressive genetics of the pit bull that were bred into them.

I do realize that the AKC does not recognize the term pit bull or American Pit Bull Terrier, but that they recognize the American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. 

The term pit bull is typically used (by me, and most of the nation) as any pit- type dog(or a mix of them all), enveloping these three breeds mainly, which most cannot tell apart, because they all exhibit many similar traits and have all been bred to fight in the nation. Unless I address the breed specifically, a pit bull is any or all of those breeds. Most of the dogs in the news cannot be identified as one or another because they are mixes of them, or so poorly bred that all distinguishing qualities are unnoticeable. 

I have taken tests online like that many times, and have posed the same questions to congressmen and state representatives looking to enact BSL to make a point. I like to think that I am very good about telling the difference between most well-bred bully breeds (I'm sure if I took a test now after taking many previously I would do exceptional), but I can rarely tell you what that dog on the chain in the yard is, because it is not a true representation of the breeds at all. 



codmaster said:


> BTW - I would much rather approach a stray pit bull than many many of the GSD's that I have come across.


Ditto. 



Falkosmom said:


> *I do not support BSL*, but we will all suffer if pit owner's don't pull thier heads out of the sand.


Definitely true, but why can't you help out by offering public education on the subject to help the issue and carry yourself with a good thought towards all dogs, instead of adding to the hatred and misinformation blindly?


----------



## MamaTank

fuzzybunny said:


> I see no harm in meeting on neutral territory and going for a walk with both dogs on leash. I would not let them meet/sniff or anything before the walk. Assuming the walk goes well and neither dog has displayed inappropriate behaviour, then I would let them meet on leash and see how it goes. I would do this on a few separate occasions before they are off leash together. I'm not a big fan of just letting two dogs off leash and seeing how it goes, especially if one has displayed some inappropriate behaviour in the past. Better safe than sorry.



This. And because it's late, and I am too tired to read all posts, Idk who all said what. But even if they get along otherwise, never leave them unsupervised. EVER. 
I own an APBT, and I will never leave her unsupervised with any dog, just because APBT's can turn dog aggressive at any stage of life. That's just my 2 cents.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> JessieWessie99
> 
> This one's for you. _She takes the same precautions with a pit as with any other dog_, although she admits to the likelihood of dog aggression. This is exactly what I am talking about, she makes no distinction. This is not about a pit's possible dog aggression, it is about the pit's above and beyond dog aggression, the desire to destroy the intended target, _very *unlike* other breeds._ This sentiment has been echoed over and over in this thread from both owner's and non owner's.
> 
> I am sorry to come off sounding rude, disrepectful or arrogant. But it is tiresome going in circles on here where people keep denying the genetics of pits and then other people coming on here saying that nobody said that.



I do the same thing with every dog that I have encountered will encounter, regardless of breed. I have been saying this all along. NO ONE is denying anything! I have not seen anyone deny genetics in Pitbull type dogs, no one has denied anything. 

I have no idea why people keep thinking us people who work or own pitbull type dogs are denying anything. I haven't read any.


----------



## CarrieJ

AMEN! Danielle! 


> *You need to realize that ANY terrier is like this.* Any dog that is bred for tenacity. My 9lb rat terrier has been very eagerly pounced on by large puppies or very rough dogs before in an aggressive manner, and she will snap and go after a dog until I physically make her stop. She would NEVER start a fight like that, but she will sure as heck end it, bloodshed or not. That is a breed trait in the group and it doesn't single them out any moreso than herding or retrieving. Just something bred into them, but it doesn't make them any more dangerous. I don't know how I'm coming across as wishy-washy, really.


A terrier is a terrier is a terrier, from a 10 lb Yorkie....to a sixty pound Bull Terrier. Or, if you want to be exotic; a Tibetan Terrier.

And, Mama Tank....I completely agree. This is a picture of Alice my GSD with her friend Cali (the neighbor's dog who we "baby sit" occassionally). The "girls" started out walking together on structured walks and now hang out together. BUT, NEVER UNSUPERVISED...and NO TOYS/BONES, Cali is is pretty guardy and this is Alice's yard. Cali is even good with Zoey my JRT Weasel Terrier Mix.
However, they play real well...I just take Alice's collar off. And, both dogs listen to verbal correction or distraction nicely.
Cali is a year old pit bull/Bull Terrier mix. I honestly believe that the Pit Bull slows the Bull Terrier down....*wink*



Oh and here's a picture with Alice with Daisy. A pit bull that she had met that day on a walk through the park. That's Daisy's mom holding Alice in a sit.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> Excuse me? Yes, there have been one or two fatal or near fatal pit bull attacks on people (haven't heard of any animal fatalities) in the last year or so in the area. For completely different reasons, *we banned pit bulls from our park (NEVER had a single fight or scuffle with one to cause it for any reason like that...)* .............................
> *So you banned them on NO evidence whatsoever - thought we were better than that in this country by now!*
> *I'm kind of confused by your sentence structure. I'm talking about the dog aggressive genetics of the pit bull that were bred into them.*
> 
> I do realize that the AKC does not recognize the term pit bull or American Pit Bull Terrier, but that they recognize the American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. * You consider this lovable big friendly breed as a "Pit Bull"???? Have any evidence of these being used at a fighting pit bull or do you just not like their looks?*
> 
> The term pit bull is typically used (by me, and most of the nation) as any pit- type dog(or a mix of them all), *enveloping these three breeds mainly*, which most cannot tell apart, because they all exhibit many similar traits and have all been bred to fight in the nation. Unless I address the breed specifically, a pit bull is any or all of those breeds. Most of the dogs in the news cannot be identified as one or another because *they are mixes of them*, or so poorly bred that all distinguishing qualities are unnoticeable.
> 
> I have taken tests online like that many times, and have posed the same questions to congressmen and state representatives *looking to enact BSL* to make a point. I like to think that I am very good about telling the difference between most well-bred bully breeds (I'm sure if I took a test now after taking many previously I would do exceptional), but *I can rarely tell you what that* *dog on the chain in the yard is,* because it is not a true representation of the breeds at all. ...................


 
djetzel,

Confusing as heck!

let's see - you lump two totally different breeds(Bull Terrier and Staff) as "pit bulls'. I am relly totally amazed that you cannot tell these two breeds apart - may I suggest that you should attend a Dog Show and watch the conformation rings and that may help you distinguish these two very different breeds apart which I would expect that might help your very strong biased emotions toward these "pit bulls".

But then you also mention "THREE" breeds - what was the other one?

And I guess that you might lump any dog with any GSD blood in them no matter how little as a GSD and should be added into the GSD bite statistics? Correct.

Because you certainly do that with "pit bulls"? Mixed breeds indeed! I would of course that these mongrol dogs have been genetically tested to see that they have "pit bull" bllod (whatever that is) - right? Or did you rely on "just a look"? I can guess what you used.

BTW, you mention the Bull terrier as a "Pit bull" - could you show/reference ANY evidence of any dogs of this breed as a fighting dog (pit bull) WHATSOEVER? If you cannot (highly likely!) then just ignore this request, of course!

But of course do not let any facts get in your beliefs!


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> You need to realize that ANY terrier is like this. Any dog that is bred for tenacity. My 9lb rat terrier has been very eagerly pounced on by large puppies or very rough dogs before in an aggressive manner, and she will snap and go after a dog until I physically make her stop. She would NEVER start a fight like that, but she will sure as heck end it, bloodshed or not. That is a breed trait in the group and it doesn't single them out any moreso than herding or retrieving. Just something bred into them, but it doesn't make them any more dangerous. I don't know how I'm coming across as wishy-washy, really.
> 
> *That paragraph alone is wishy washy (your words). "Terriers are bred to have more tenacity, will end a fight...bloodshed or not, it is a breed trait to the group, yet is does not make them any more dangerous. " Yes it does!!! You can't compare tenacity, fighting and bloodshed to herding and retrieving or any other non aggressive traits and then state that it doesn't make them any more dangerous. It just simply defies all logic. *
> 
> 
> I have said many times that pit bulls are bred to be dog aggressive, and that it is in their genes. I will forever be a nature side of the argument believer, but there is no doubt that humans can substantially change the way dogs would behave naturally. I know exactly how much damage the typically pit bull is capable of doing (just like the typically GSD or Rat Terrier) and I manage them accordingly, but to say that they are ALL bad, or that they cannot be trusted as a breed really hurts me because I am trying so hard to make people give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not getting defensive or spewing crazy claims with no evidence. I take my (fosters, friends... I do not currently own unfortunately) pits out ALL the time as I previously said and make people love them because they are great dogs.
> 
> *Really?*
> 
> Definitely true, but why can't you help out by offering public education on the subject to help the issue and carry yourself with a good thought towards all dogs, instead of adding to the hatred and misinformation blindly?


I am offering public education, that is why I am posting here, and I most certainly carry myself with good thoughts toward all dogs. It is just that I find trying to dupe people into believing a pit is something that it is not is nothing but selfserving. You want people to believe that a pit is not different in a dangerous manner than other dogs, and by propagating this belief, (one you openly admit to as not being true), you do a disservice to the general public. 

I also find it offensive for you to insinuate that my unfortunate pit encounters have resulted in my being full of hate and result in my blindly diseminating misinformation. I am not in denial. I am sorry that the bad experiences I have had with pits do not fit your "pits are the same as other dogs philosophy" but that does not by any means diminish the reality or severity of what has happened to my poor dog.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If pits are banned the general public will not just go after gsd.
> They are not trying to ban pits because they are bored with nothing to do.
> 
> Instead of making false claims and trying to scare other dog owners into protesting bsl, as well as denying every problem, why don't you take your dog in public and show people how great it is? And title it too.
> 
> It's the owner not the dog is the most ridiculous statement. So it's my fault my dog is borderline fear aggressive? No it is genetics.
> 
> All this bs about pits not beig human aggressive is ridiculous. Are you going to claim the thousands of human attacks were originally directed at other dogs but we're redirected? I wouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Obviously not all pits are bad, but enough are to cause a bad name.
> 
> The majority of German shepherds aren't. That is why there is no calling to ban them. A few little cities do, big deal. That is because there are responsible owners like me who take care of the problem. Too many idiots own pits and don't take precautions with a breed prone to attack.
> 
> Obviously dejetzel you are a responsible owner. We aren't questioning that. That is why I am confused why you are making so many crazy claims with no evidence and twisting facts about things like the att and telling people it is their fault hey got attacked by a pit.
> 
> It is fine to love your breed. But as the saying goes, love is blind. In this case you are so blinded by your love that you can't imagine your breed could do anything wrong. Like a mother with a serial killer son. I hope you decide to promote your breed by taking your dog out instead of denying and attacking others.
> 
> Fallo and chelle, no matter what you say every fact or opinion will be denied. You might as well give up. This is no longer a debate. You might as well talk to your dog because no evidence you show will change this persons mind and you will continue to be attacked.
> 
> Once again, I don't hate pits, I hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make other dog owners scared for their breed.



Yes, it will happen. Or better yet our breed of choice will be on the same bill as a pitbull. Recently a ban was proposed here in LA county to ban GSDs, Pitbulls, Pitbull Mixes,Huskies, Alaskan Malamutes, Akitas, Rottweilers, Dobermans, wolf dogs, and any dogs that looked like them. So what will you do if that happened in your area? 

Cities are banning pitbulls for no good reason. BSL is ineffective and useless. 

We are NOT making false claims or trying to scare other dog owners. We are telling the truth. If they focus on just banning certain breeds, they will not focus on other dog attacks by other breeds. No one is denying anything. We are doing something, by telling people what pitbulls are really like and are not what the media or misinformed people are saying and spreading. I volunteer at a shelter and I am more than happy to let someone pet a pitbull and tell them they are not mean and are good dogs. I try my best to show a positive light on pitbulls. I don't own a pitbull type dog, but if I ever do, I will most definately show that he/she is not a monster and is great dog.

Most of the time it is the owner. If not its the breeder's fault for not breeding responsibly and not taking into account genetics, health, and temperament. 

I am just curious. Have you even read up on America Pitbull Terriers or any other pitbull type dogs? Like the standard and read what they are suppoed to be? They are NOT supposed to be human aggressive. Its NOT supposed to be bred for. Responsible breeders of pitbull type dogs do NOT breed for that. Its an UNDESIRED TRAIT. If a dog is human aggressive it should be PTS. Also, if the dog was trained to be human aggressive, that is NOT responsible ownership. Pitbull type dogs and dogs of other breeds should NEVER be human aggressive.

That is what many of us have been saying all along.

Oh there are many case of GSDs, we just don't hear about it. And YES there is indeed a call to ban them. There was one recently here in LA county where I am. And I have heard of other cities. GSDs are on the BSL hit list. A few cities is a big deal. Because we never know whose city will be next. Also, who is to say that the next big BSL target won't be GSDs?

There are many idiot owners of GSDs too as well as any breed. Yes there are idiot owners of pitbulls. And Pitbull type dogs are NOT prone to attack, they are known to be DA, but with educated responsible owner it can be controlled and not be a problem.

We are not blind. We are just the educated ones. We try our best to show a good and positive image of pitbull type dogs whether its owning them or working with them at a shelter/rescue.

We aren't denying anything or trying to attack them. We are trying to tell them from a different point of view. Its an educated point of view from people who own and work with these dogs.

No one is twisting or denying anything. I have not seen that. Yes, some pitbulls are not a good representation, but that does NOT account for all of them. But there are bad representations of all kinds of dog breeds. Yes, there are idiot owners of pitbulls, but that does NOT account for all them. But there are idiot owners of all kinds of dog breeds.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

DJEtzel said:


> You need to realize that ANY terrier is like this. Any dog that is bred for tenacity. My 9lb rat terrier has been very eagerly pounced on by large puppies or very rough dogs before in an aggressive manner, and she will snap and go after a dog until I physically make her stop. She would NEVER start a fight like that, but she will sure as heck end it, bloodshed or not. That is a breed trait in the group and it doesn't single them out any moreso than herding or retrieving. Just something bred into them, but it doesn't make them any more dangerous. I don't know how I'm coming across as wishy-washy, really.
> 
> 
> 
> How did I back ANYTHING up?
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me? Yes, there have been one or two fatal or near fatal pit bull attacks on people (haven't heard of any animal fatalities) in the last year or so in the area. For completely different reasons, we banned pit bulls from our park (NEVER had a single fight or scuffle with one to cause it for any reason like that...) and yes, we are glad that the act of doing so never got taken into a different context and used AGAINST pit bulls in the news, so when pit bull owners come in and throw fits about our policy and threaten to write letters to the editor, we urge them not to, to keep the spot light off of the "banning of breeds" that we've done, so that politicians in the city do not think that it is a better idea to ban pit bulls, because we do not want to see BSL enacted here. Extremely confused as to how this is echoing?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, it's your fault that you let him out in public out of your control and put him in a position to bite someone, way to go!
> 
> ^ Owner's fault the dog is now in the news and the city is banning their breed, even though the dog was fear aggressive for other reasons. Dog could have stayed inside or muzzled for the rest of his life and the city wouldn't be banning pits or GSDs right now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, they are bred specifically to be non-aggressive to humans! The history is all there to prove non-rediculous. The thing is, when irresponsible people chain them up from 6 weeks (so they don't learn bite inhibition!) to 3 years in the yard and don't train them or socialize them (and they are already poorly bred and unstable dogs 9 times out of 10 because they are from fighting rings or the neighborhood puppy breeders who are no doubt breeding close relative dogs) and they spend all that time watching these strange creatures run up and down the sidewalk screaming (children), when that chain finally breaks, all of that built up energy, frustration, and prey drive manifests in the form of an attack. You don't often hear about well-trained, well-bred, therapy dogs who get plenty of exercise (the typical responsible owner from this very board) randomly attacking kids or adults, do you? That's because there is a very significant reason these attacks are happening, and they are not all the dogs' faults.
> 
> 
> 
> I have said many times that pit bulls are bred to be dog aggressive, and that it is in their genes. I will forever be a nature side of the argument believer, but there is no doubt that humans can substantially change the way dogs would behave naturally. I know exactly how much damage the typically pit bull is capable of doing (just like the typically GSD or Rat Terrier) and I manage them accordingly, but to say that they are ALL bad, or that they cannot be trusted as a breed really hurts me because I am trying so hard to make people give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not getting defensive or spewing crazy claims with no evidence. I take my (fosters, friends... I do not currently own unfortunately) pits out ALL the time as I previously said and make people love them because they are great dogs.
> 
> Also, I never said it is the victims fault that they got attacked by a dog...?? I'm sure in some cases it might be, but I definitely know that typically it is not the small childs fault that the dog attacked them.
> 
> 
> 
> It is the exact same situation in reverse for pit lovers. We can never show you any evidence that pit bulls are good dogs, and we continue being attacked and our dogs are called baby killers on the street.
> 
> I ALSO hate that people deny every fact and figure and twist stories to make the breed bad.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm kind of confused by your sentence structure. I'm talking about the dog aggressive genetics of the pit bull that were bred into them.
> 
> I do realize that the AKC does not recognize the term pit bull or American Pit Bull Terrier, but that they recognize the American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
> 
> The term pit bull is typically used (by me, and most of the nation) as any pit- type dog(or a mix of them all), enveloping these three breeds mainly, which most cannot tell apart, because they all exhibit many similar traits and have all been bred to fight in the nation. Unless I address the breed specifically, a pit bull is any or all of those breeds. Most of the dogs in the news cannot be identified as one or another because they are mixes of them, or so poorly bred that all distinguishing qualities are unnoticeable.
> 
> I have taken tests online like that many times, and have posed the same questions to congressmen and state representatives looking to enact BSL to make a point. I like to think that I am very good about telling the difference between most well-bred bully breeds (I'm sure if I took a test now after taking many previously I would do exceptional), but I can rarely tell you what that dog on the chain in the yard is, because it is not a true representation of the breeds at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely true, but why can't you help out by offering public education on the subject to help the issue and carry yourself with a good thought towards all dogs, instead of adding to the hatred and misinformation blindly?


Best post I have read in a while!!


----------



## CookieTN

Falkosmom said:


> I hope that you did not feel that I was singling you out per se, I was just using your message in a general sense to make a point. My apologies if I was not clear.


It's fine.


----------



## Lesley1905

selzer said:


> I don't know. The thugs want a dog that is intimidating. And when you look at schutzhund protection work, they do look intimidating. If pits are banned, the pit and pit-look-alikes will be moving on to other breeds that they see as interesting. GSDs are interesting, they have no lack of fangs. They are strong, and big, and toothy, even wolf-like.
> 
> I can see thugs going after working line shepherds big time. Lots of criminals are wary of the dogs, but others would be perfectly happy to get puppies and train them up to be aggressive. And the more protective, the more protection work in their background the better.
> 
> They will take the puppy, keep them away from people, chain it, kick it, starve it, to get a sharper, meaner dog. They will breed it to the sharpest, meanest, biggest dogs they can find. And GSDs or Rottweilers or Bull-mastiffs will replace pitts.
> 
> Breed specific legislation is not our friend. The only thing I think that can combat the problems with irresponsible and even criminal management of dogs, is to make the penalties for violations, especially those that cause damage, serious injury significant.


 
I totally agree. Excellent post. GSD's are in the hot seat unfortunately.


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> djetzel,
> 
> Confusing as heck!
> 
> let's see - you lump two totally different breeds(Bull Terrier and Staff) as "pit bulls'. I am relly totally amazed that you cannot tell these two breeds apart - may I suggest that you should attend a Dog Show and watch the conformation rings and that may help you distinguish these two very different breeds apart which I would expect that might help your very strong biased emotions toward these "pit bulls".
> 
> But then you also mention "THREE" breeds - what was the other one?
> 
> And I guess that you might lump any dog with any GSD blood in them no matter how little as a GSD and should be added into the GSD bite statistics? Correct.


Regarding your colored quotes in my reply;

Yes, we banned pit bulls, and that was not my choice, but it is to keep irresponsible people from being irresponsible and having the breed banned in our area.

I listed three breeds so I'm not sure which you're talking about me not liking the looks of and being a fighting dog, but all three breeds have absolutely been used to fight and all are actively bred in fighting rings with unstable nerves and a high liklihood of genetic Dog Aggression. I LOVE the look of all pit bulls, especially Am Staffs and Staffy Bulls. You seem to be very confused about the differences between these the three pits and their roles in society.

Once again, I don't lump American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and American Pit Bull Terriers(that's the third breed you didn't notice in my reply) together because I cannot tell them apart. When they are not mixed breeds and are well bred I can easily tell them apart (AS I SAID), but they are ALL being used as fighting and because the general public cannot tell them apart, the nation refers to the group of them as "Pit Bulls". If we're talking about one specific breed, we talk about that breed. But we're talking about ALL of them here.



> Because you certainly do that with "pit bulls"? Mixed breeds indeed! I would of course that these mongrol dogs have been genetically tested to see that they have "pit bull" bllod (whatever that is) - right? Or did you rely on "just a look"? I can guess what you used.
> 
> BTW, you mention the Bull terrier as a "Pit bull" - could you show/reference ANY evidence of any dogs of this breed as a fighting dog (pit bull) WHATSOEVER? If you cannot (highly likely!) then just ignore this request, of course!
> 
> But of course do not let any facts get in your beliefs!


Your first paragraph is not worded in a gramatically correct way for me to understand... I think you're asking how we decide what is a pit bull and what isn't at the park? We rely on vet records because my three fellow co-workers can NOT tell the difference. If their vet records indicate the dog is any breed that we do not allow, we don't permit the dog entrance into the park. Simple as that.

And... I never mentioned the Bull Terrier at all.... you must have me confused with someone else. I've never even met a bull terrier in real life. 
I use facts in ALL of my beliefs, thank you very much.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Codmaster, you shouldn't be attacked Djetzel about lumping together different dog breeds into the category "pits"

I was the person that first brought this up, not her. As I stated many posts back, the LAW is what lumps these breeds together for BSL. They are not saying these breeds are all the same. They are saying that these breeds are alll under the category of "pits" because they believe they are very similar in temperament and aggression.

Djetzel knows the difference between these breeds, obviously. She has posted many facts and figures throughout this discussion concerning "pits" as a group and the breeds as individuals.

---------------------
To djetzel:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *x0emiroxy0x*  
_It's the owner not the dog is the most ridiculous statement. *So it's my fault my dog is borderline fear aggressive?* No it is genetics._

"Nope, it's your fault that you let him out in public out of your control and put him in a position to bite someone, way to go! 

^ Owner's fault the dog is now in the news and the city is banning their breed, even though the dog was fear aggressive for other reasons. Dog could have stayed inside or muzzled for the rest of his life and the city wouldn't be banning pits or GSDs right now! "

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but I'm not sure if you read the other thread I made about this. Rocky has no problem out in public, he only fearfully showed his teeth to someone at my boyfriend's home when there was a party with 30+ strangers and one of them came into the room he was kenneled in and kept trying to pet him after letting him out of the kennel. We walk twice a day to petsmart and go in there and sit in the back as strangers walk by and he gets treats for ignoring them. I hand sewed him a vest that says "STOP. Do not pet. In training". I am very responsible with my dogs problems and have a trainer/behavioralist. 

Perhaps my dog should stay outside for the rest of his life lol Just kidding. As long as I don't bring strangers in the home he is fine...or so I think. That is why I am being so proactive and taking precautions outside of the home, even though he has never shown that kind of behavior outside. Just incase. And that is all I want other people to do.

Perhaps you personally attacked me because you felt I did so to you. If that is the case, I apologize. I would ask that you refrain from making any more comments about my dog as I have just spend the last 1000$ I had in savings on a trainer/behavioralist, and 6+ different books. I pretty much gave up my christmas holiday plans to help my dog and it hurts to be put down like that after all the proactive things I have been doing. Although 20+ people have complimented me on our progress, that one comment really pulled me down, especially since I could tell you hadn't even read my earlier thread and were just seeking to hurt.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

To all the pit owners that have posted on here----I just wanted to say this again since I already said it once but it was like 20 pages ago....

I don't think any of the pit owners posting on here have bad dogs. In fact, since you are posting so avidly and obviously are proactive with your dogs, I think the complete opposite.

It is the people that aren't on internet forums trying to get help or those that ignore the problem or those that intentionally cause aggression that make the bad rep for the breed.

The only thing I am trying to get across is that the pit debate is pointless. Some pits are terrible, some are awesome! You can't say that all pits are good, or that even most are. Just like you can't say that about german shepherds. I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion about whether pits are aggressive or not. It irks me that a few posts on here are saying that ALL news stories are wrong, ALL bite facts are wrong, etc. That is why I have continued this debate. 

Unfortunately, your beloved breed has been lumped into a category with four+ other breeds and all of these breeds should be owned by experienced owners but they are normally owned by poor people or gang members as guard dogs and not socialized or trained. That is why there are so many bites. I don't think pits bite because of just genetics or owners. It is a mix of both. 

I feel like I keep repeating myself so unless a different question arises, that is my last thought.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

By the way, rottweilers are not next for bsl...they are part of it right now. In 2011, more than half the states included rotts under the pit category with staffordshires, APBT, and bulldogs. (for legal proceedings)


----------



## EJQ

I know a couple of very nice people that own very nice Pit Bulls. I know - I'm probably wrong  but I'm sad to say that I don't think that I would take the chance letting them meet my dogs despite the fact that they are lovers around people.


----------



## Josie/Zeus

Short answer, No.


----------



## jang

You know, I am not a very smart person...but I know this much--pit bulls are dogs and they kill people..I don't give a *swearing not allowed* why--If a dog kills a person than I am not sorry that that pit has bad parents --But by God I pray no one I love runs across a pit who is in the mood to attack--FOR WHATEVER REASON This is not an acceptable behavior..So ya'll can continue to carry on for another 400 posts--but this is fact--DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL HUMANS...PERIOD
Jan


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I don't think I've really answered the OP's question, but here goes.

No I would not let Masi around a pitbull, but then again, NO I wouldn't let her hang out with 'strange' dogs of any breed. Why? Masi doesn't appreciate strange dogs in her face, all it would take would be for ANY(unfamiliar) dog to get in her face, she may take it wrong, and the fur is gonna fly. 

Now even with my very passive, get's along with anything, aussie, No, I just don't trust ANY dog of ANY breed that I am unfamiliar with, with my dogs. 

Don't get me wrong, I have met some nice pitties and some not so nice pitties. My dogs have been 'around' pits, and no problems, but I don't let them play with pits NOR any unfamiliar dog.

The fact is, pits have a reputation and it's unfortunate.


----------



## DJEtzel

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but I'm not sure if you read the other thread I made about this. Rocky has no problem out in public, he only fearfully showed his teeth to someone at my boyfriend's home when there was a party with 30+ strangers and one of them came into the room he was kenneled in and kept trying to pet him after letting him out of the kennel. We walk twice a day to petsmart and go in there and sit in the back as strangers walk by and he gets treats for ignoring them. I hand sewed him a vest that says "STOP. Do not pet. In training". I am very responsible with my dogs problems and have a trainer/behavioralist.
> 
> Perhaps my dog should stay outside for the rest of his life lol Just kidding. As long as I don't bring strangers in the home he is fine...or so I think. That is why I am being so proactive and taking precautions outside of the home, even though he has never shown that kind of behavior outside. Just incase. And that is all I want other people to do.
> 
> Perhaps you personally attacked me because you felt I did so to you. If that is the case, I apologize. I would ask that you refrain from making any more comments about my dog as I have just spend the last 1000$ I had in savings on a trainer/behavioralist, and 6+ different books. I pretty much gave up my christmas holiday plans to help my dog and it hurts to be put down like that after all the proactive things I have been doing. Although 20+ people have complimented me on our progress, that one comment really pulled me down, especially since I could tell you hadn't even read my earlier thread and were just seeking to hurt.


No no no no no... I did not mean to personally attack you. The "you's" were supposed to be general "you's" about how it really does boil down to the people that own the dog about what happens to the dog that comes into the spotlight. I vaguely know that you've had any issues with Rocky, and I certainly wouldn't throw an easy hit in like that, especially when I know what it is like to be in that position with a dog you have no idea what to do with, what his problem is, how to fix it, and getting negative comments all the time. I was honestly not trying to make that about you and your dog at all. YOU are obviously doing what everyone needs to do and managing/working with their issue dogs instead of leaving them in the backyard to escape and kill a child, ending up on the 5 o'clock news. 



x0emiroxy0x said:


> The only thing I am trying to get across is that the pit debate is pointless. Some pits are terrible, some are awesome! You can't say that all pits are good, or that even most are. Just like you can't say that about german shepherds. I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion about whether pits are aggressive or not. It irks me that a few posts on here are saying that ALL news stories are wrong, ALL bite facts are wrong, etc. That is why I have continued this debate.


We are not trying to say that all of them or fantastic or that all of the news and statistics are wrong, we're just trying to show skeptics like yourself that they are not all BAD like you seem to make them out. Not all of those statistics are accurate, the news leaves stuff out all of the time, sometimes it's not a pit, etc. To try to let you at least give the benefit of the doubt to the breed.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

selzer said:


> I don't know. The thugs want a dog that is intimidating. And when you look at schutzhund protection work, they do look intimidating. If pits are banned, the pit and pit-look-alikes will be moving on to other breeds that they see as interesting. GSDs are interesting, they have no lack of fangs. They are strong, and big, and toothy, even wolf-like.
> 
> I can see thugs going after working line shepherds big time. Lots of criminals are wary of the dogs, but others would be perfectly happy to get puppies and train them up to be aggressive. And the more protective, the more protection work in their background the better.
> 
> They will take the puppy, keep them away from people, chain it, kick it, starve it, to get a sharper, meaner dog. They will breed it to the sharpest, meanest, biggest dogs they can find. And GSDs or Rottweilers or Bull-mastiffs will replace pitts.
> 
> Breed specific legislation is not our friend. The only thing I think that can combat the problems with irresponsible and even criminal management of dogs, is to make the penalties for violations, especially those that cause damage, serious injury significant.



:thumbup::thumbup: Once the one thing they want becomes unavailable they will move onto the next best thing.

GSDs are on the list along with Dobermans, and Rottweilers and Pitbulls.


----------



## GregK

jang said:


> DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL HUMANS...PERIOD


I don't think anyone's disputing this, are they?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> To all the pit owners that have posted on here----I just wanted to say this again since I already said it once but it was like 20 pages ago....
> 
> I don't think any of the pit owners posting on here have bad dogs. In fact, since you are posting so avidly and obviously are proactive with your dogs, I think the complete opposite.
> 
> *It is the people that aren't on internet forums trying to get help or those that ignore the problem or those that intentionally cause aggression that make the bad rep for the breed.*
> 
> The only thing I am trying to get across is that the pit debate is pointless. Some pits are terrible, some are awesome! You can't say that all pits are good, or that even most are. Just like you can't say that about german shepherds. I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion about whether pits are aggressive or not. It irks me that a few posts on here are saying that ALL news stories are wrong, ALL bite facts are wrong, etc. That is why I have continued this debate.
> 
> *Unfortunately, your beloved breed has been lumped into a category with four+ other breeds and all of these breeds should be owned by experienced owners but they are normally owned by poor people or gang members as guard dogs and not socialized or trained. That is why there are so many bites. I don't think pits bite because of just genetics or owners. It is a mix of both. *
> 
> I feel like I keep repeating myself so unless a different question arises, that is my last thought.


THAT is what we have been saying all along.

Also no one said they are all good. We said those bad ones are being showed more than the good ones. I have indeed heard good news stories about pitbulls, one was about a pitbull saving its owner. And some facts are good and some are bad. You just have to know where to look for good backed up facts. There are places with good facts and place with bad facts. There have been a few new stories here where I am where the news got the breed wrong. The first said it was a pitbull, but then changed the dog's breed to boxer mix. So who knows what breed the dog actually was.

I don't expect all pitbulls to be the same everywhere, because they aren't sadly. I just help by shedding light and saying there are indeed good ones out there who are owned by good responsible owners. I am very fortunate to have met the good ones and that my dogs have met the good ones. 

I am terribly sorry for anyone who has encountered a bad representation. That is not something I wish upon anyone and no one deserves to be attacked by any dog of any breed. 

This another thing we have been saying. Its bad owners, bad training, abuse, and bad genetics that caused the bad rap for the breed. There are dogs of other breeds that are going through the same thing as many pitbulls are, and its hurting their reputation as well. But for some strange reason, we hear more about Pitbulls than other breeds. The proposed ban that was here in LA county, was rejected. But many breeds including GSDs, Rotties, Pitbulls, Dobermans, Huskies, and Alaskan Malamutes and few other dogs were on it. Good thing it was rejected. That is why BSL should be rejected because our breed of choice has been on it and will continue to be.

Also, I would like to add, I am very sorry if I offended anyone. Since volunteering at a shelter Pitbulls have gotten a place in my heart. I am very passionate about them. I am pretty much like that with most dogs, but Pitbulls with a few other breeds(GSDs) have won me over.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> By the way, rottweilers are not next for bsl...they are part of it right now. In 2011, more than half the states included rotts under the pit category with staffordshires, APBT, and bulldogs. (for legal proceedings)


They always have been, just not on as many lists as Pitbulls are. Same with GSDs. We just see more Pitbulls on lists than others. But then again that depends on the location. A Rottie may show up on more lists in another state than they do here in Southern California.


----------



## gsdraven

GregK said:


> jang said:
> 
> 
> 
> DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL HUMANS...PERIOD
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone's disputing this, are they?
Click to expand...

 
No. But it doesn't seem the poster means dogs in general given the whole post. I just haven't been able to find the words to address it yet...



jang said:


> You know, I am not a very smart person...but I know this much--*pit bulls are dogs and they kill people*..I don't give a *swearing not allowed* why--*If a dog kills a person than I am not sorry that that pit has bad parents* --But by God I pray no one I love runs across a pit who is in the mood to attack--FOR WHATEVER REASON This is not an acceptable behavior..So ya'll can continue to carry on for another 400 posts--but this is fact--DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL HUMANS...PERIOD
> Jan


----------



## jang

GregK said:


> I don't think anyone's disputing this, are they?


Perhaps,,but by pardoning this breed are we not in compliance with their proven behavior?
Jan


----------



## chelle

This post has become, and surpassed, mind-numbing!!! I don't think anyone is disagreeing with anyone anymore!

It actually started, oh 400+ posts back, as a little bickering thing about whether dogs should have playmates and the like. Then, because of me in some part at least, making a comment about what pit owners wouldn't "admit" to, it exploded. So I'll take some responsibility there. 

After the dumb, nasty and attacking posts worked their way thru, I personally think this thing is better understood. At least by me. Danielle, for a time, I was scratching my head at some of your posts, I admit it, but you took a lot of time later to really explain your stance, beliefs and so on without the nastiness many (perhaps, including myself!) that had come out before. 

I really don't know where anyone could possibly take this post from this point.  I don't know what angle or belief has not been discussed ad nauseum.


----------



## jang

jang said:


> You know, I am not a very smart person...but I know this much--pit bulls are dogs and they kill people..I don't give a *swearing not allowed* why--If a dog kills a person than I am not sorry that that pit has bad parents --But by God I pray no one I love runs across a pit who is in the mood to attack--FOR WHATEVER REASON This is not an acceptable behavior..So ya'll can continue to carry on for another 400 posts--but this is fact--DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO KILL HUMANS...PERIOD
> Jan


Hey, I was a real jerk last night and I am sorry for my behavior...I know firsthand about dog prejudice and for that reason alone I should not display the same behavior--please accept my apologies.
Jan


----------



## jetscarbie

Just wanted to update about something I read this morning. Hope it's in the right thread..



Miami-Dade County expected to repeal Pitbull Ban. 

Miami-Dade County expected to repeal pitbull ban | thetelegraph.com.au


----------



## Jessiewessie99

jetscarbie said:


> just wanted to update about something i read this morning. Hope it's in the right thread..
> 
> 
> 
> Miami-dade county expected to repeal pitbull ban.
> 
> miami-dade county expected to repeal pitbull ban | thetelegraph.com.au


yes!


----------



## Chicagocanine

One of Bianca's playmates is a pit bull. She's in our Dog Scout troop, and they always end up playing with each other at the end of the meetings.
We've also met a few pitties(mostly not actually APBTs, but bully breed mixes) at the dog park and they were all very friendly and played nicely with the other dogs.


----------



## DJEtzel

Dog scout troop? Sounds interesting!


----------



## codmaster

The very title of this thread is a little bothersome - as if pitties are a different species.

They are dogs! And most of them are very friendly dogs - and I really doubt if a pit bull (Staffordshire terrier) is any more DA than many other terriers (and a few other breeds as well).

When my guy was a 10 mo old puppy one of his best friends was a Huge male Pit bull that we met by sitting next to them at our local obedience club meeting - the guy was VERY friendly and very tolerant of a MOST pesty pushy male puppy who thought nothing of jumping on the pit's head while playing with him.


----------



## chelle

codmaster said:


> and I really doubt if a pit bull (Staffordshire terrier) is any more DA than many other terriers...


Please come visit Des Moines, Iowa.


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> The very title of this thread is a little bothersome - as if pitties are a different species.
> 
> They are dogs! And most of them are very friendly dogs - and I really *doubt if a pit bull (Staffordshire terrier) is any more DA than many other terriers* (and a few other breeds as well).
> 
> When my guy was a 10 mo old puppy one of his best friends was a Huge male Pit bull that we met by sitting next to them at our local obedience club meeting - the guy was VERY friendly and very tolerant of a MOST pesty pushy male puppy who thought nothing of jumping on the pit's head while playing with him.


Well, pit bulls _were _bred for dog aggression, so yeah... typically they are.


----------



## TaZoR

Absolutely not. I have worked in a vet hosp as a technician and managed a large boarding kennel. I have witnessed fights, the after math of fights, and even tried to break up a fight between 2 pits the owner insisted on boarding together in a large walk in cage. The damage and intensity is unreal. They refuse to let go. And these were nice dogs playing together earlier. Dogs that had been together in the past. I have seen fights in the waiting room that start out as just 2 dogs sniffing and wagging. 

Most other breeds will snap at you and maybe get you a few times, pits are different. They will go for your neck and not stop until you're dead or physically removed from their jaws. I hated walking into their cages as they seemed to be very unpredictable. Imagine if you had to walk into a strange pits cage not knowing its history. many are rescues. 

I would never expose my dog to this based on my experience. Perhaps some will never attack, but it will only take a few seconds to kill or cause so much damage its unreal. You are also in extreme danger breaking it up. Look at the statistics...37% of deaths were from pits that made up 2% of the dog breeds.

Im only giving my opinion based on my experience, and you are welcome to your opinions.


----------



## Falkosmom

Sorry, they are by no means just another dog.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> Well, pit bulls _were _bred for dog aggression, so yeah... typically they are.


Are you saying ALL pitties were bred for DA?? 

That is just like saying that ALL GSD's were bred for herding or all GSD's were bred for ScH or (well you get the idea I think)

Even the large number of Staffis that are shown in the AKC show ring - you convinced that those are bred for DA as well? Of course that would mean that you are equally convinced that the breeders of Pits must all be fighting them, right? Or at least trying to match them against each other because how else would a breeder "breed for dog aggression"? You would have to have a selection method to decide which ones to breed - right?

Think about it a little!

And also, have you ever noticed how DA SOME other Terriers are - even, maybe esp., the little guys.

Maybe you have just never met a friendly Pittie? Just out of curiosity, how friendly with other adult dogs is your GSD? (I am assuming of course here a little). Would he/she react to a dog coming up to them with an aggressive attitude?

Mine certainly would and would take no $#$# from any other dog. BTW, he is a GSD not a pit, so would that make him DA?


----------



## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, they are by no means just another dog.


 
Heh! Heh! What are they, then? Oh yea, the very devil himself!

Great example of breed predijuce!


BTW, it used to be the GSD who was the victim of this same type of breed predijuce, and the Dobie, and maybe the Rottie; so now it is the pittie's turn.


----------



## llombardo

I also worked at a vet for years and the worse pit bull we had was one that we couldn't keep in his kennel..he would scale the 8 ft fence in seconds--he ate all the dog food and got sick The only fight I witnessed working at the vet was 2 dobermans that lived together, but tore each other and a vet tech up. There was a husky that bit the vet pretty badly, there was a cocker spaniel that was vicious and had to be sedated before its check up, then there was a german shepherd that had to be muzzled, sedated, and the vet had to go to the car to give him his rabbies. I got bit by a rotteweiler. My golden got attacked by a Rott, but NEVER have I had a problem with a pit bull. There are quite a few of them at the dog park and I prefer them over huskies and rotts. Its all in how they are raised...any dog that is abused will snap. As I mentioned early on I've never had an issue with a pit but there are lots of problems with other breeds that people fail to see or mention. The breed gets a raw deal due to human error. So lets stop blaming the breed and start looking at who owns any "vicious" dog/breed straight across the board. We see stories of other breeds that have mauled or killed a person and the first reaction is what did the person do or there has to be a reason..Why is it so different for pit bulls?


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


----------



## codmaster

TaZoR said:


> Absolutely not. I have worked in a vet hosp as a technician and managed a large boarding kennel. I have witnessed fights, the after math of fights, and even tried to break up a fight between 2 pits the owner insisted on boarding together in a large walk in cage. The damage and intensity is unreal. They refuse to let go. And these were nice dogs playing together earlier. Dogs that had been together in the past. I have seen fights in the waiting room that start out as just 2 dogs sniffing and wagging. *How exactly do you think most dog fights begin?*
> 
> Most other breeds will snap at you and maybe get you a few times, pits are different. They will go for your neck and not stop until you're dead or physically removed from their jaws. I hated walking into their cages as they seemed to be very unpredictable. Imagine if you had to walk into a strange pits cage not knowing its history. *many are rescues*. * Are you saying that "Rescue" dogs are all dangerous or ONLY pits?*
> 
> I would never expose my dog to this based on my experience. Perhaps some will never attack, but it will only take a few seconds to kill or cause so much damage its unreal. You are also in extreme danger breaking it up. Look at the statistics...*37% of deaths were from pits that made up 2% of the dog breeds*.
> 
> Im only giving my opinion based on my experience, and you are welcome to your opinions.


Where did you get your statistics? Would it be the same place as the one where the vast majority of people could not identify a real pit bull from many other similar looking dogs? Or the study where they considered any mixed breed with ANY pit bull in it's ancestory as a pit bull!!!!

Thank you for allowing me to have my own opinion.

C'mon, be serious.

Would you rather walk into a cage with a huge Boerboell in it? If you were to walk into any cage with a big strong "guard" type dog in it and you do so as scared as you claim to be - you have no business walking into that cage at all with any dog! they will sense your fear and/or read your body language and act accordingly.

Ever see a good ScH decoy - the way they act can get many many dogs to react aggressively when they want to. They act scared as well.

So pits "go for your neck" - where do GSD's go for? Ever been attacked by a large angry GSD? Might change your mind as well.

BTW, how long did you work in a vets office? Hope not too long as you certainly do not seem happy with working there. Were you this afraid of any other breeds?


----------



## codmaster

chelle said:


> Please come visit Des Moines, Iowa.


Why do you have really bad pits there?

Used to live in a big city on the east Coast - i would doubt if you have any worse pits in Iowa than in an inner city, do you think?


----------



## DJEtzel

TaZoR said:


> Imagine if you had to walk into a strange pits cage not knowing its history. many are rescues.


*shrugs* I did this daily for two years working in shelters... I was NEVER attacked or bit (at) by a pit bull. I WAS bit at by other breeds much more commonly.



codmaster said:


> Are you saying ALL pitties were bred for DA??


I'm saying that the breed genre as a whole was bred for DA, so the breeds falling into them are going to be more dog aggressive as a breed than most other. Just like the herding group is going to be more likely to herd than the others. There will be dogs falling into each group that are not aggressive and cannot herd, but the chances are stacked in the favor of their genes.



> And also, have you ever noticed how DA SOME other Terriers are - even, maybe esp., the little guys.


I've noticed that a lot of Bostons seem to be DA... however I can't say I've met more than one or two other small terriers ever to be dog aggressive. Certainly their tenacity adds to their aggresion in the pits. 



> Maybe you have just never met a friendly Pittie? Just out of curiosity, how friendly with other adult dogs is your GSD? (I am assuming of course here a little). Would he/she react to a dog coming up to them with an aggressive attitude?


Uhm, nope... I was raised with pit bulls that were the loves of my life and the best dogs I've ever known in shelters were pit bulls as well. My GSD is completely friendly with other adult dogs. He doesn't play much, but he tolerates them very well and is not overwhelmed. He comes to work with me at the dog park for about 10 hours a week and is used as the temperament dog there as well. An older male boxer happened to come in just a few days ago while we were there and was doing well with him, then reacted to Frag fixating on a ball, and went after him very aggressively, Frag sunk to the ground, tucked tail, and tried getting out from under him, in the few seconds it elapsed before I was able to jump up from behind my desk and clap/yell the dog's name, when he stopped the "attack" and was fine for the rest of their visit. I quotate "attack" because he was not trying to do real harm or he would have, but he came at Frag in a VERY aggressive manner and Frag does not react. He may do some posturing in the park to young males his size, but he is easily called off of such events and we continue on our way.



> Mine certainly would and would take no $#$# from any other dog. BTW, he is a GSD not a pit, so would that make him DA?


Do you know what dog aggression is? Not taking crap from another dog is not DA. A dog aggressive dog is a dog that seeks out other dogs to hurt them, not one that defends himself when fought. There are obviously many definitions of aggression, but that's not something I would consider aggression. If your dog CONTINUED after the other when he/she stopped, I would consider that aggression. If yours made it's point and they both stopped, no. If yours defended himself and the offender didn't stop and they brawled until they could be broken up, I still wouldn't consider yours dog aggressive. 

*shrugs* Just my .02 

Not really sure what you're trying to prove though??


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> *shrugs* I did this daily for two years working in shelters... I was NEVER attacked or bit (at) by a pit bull. I WAS bit at by other breeds much more commonly.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying that the *breed genre (are you referring to the American Staffie here? If so you are absolutely wrong - ask any Staff breeder if they select for DA) (and what do you mean by "GENRE"?)* as a whole was bred for DA, so the *breeds falling into them(?????)* are going to be more dog aggressive as a breed than most other. Just like the herding group is going to be more likely to herd than the others. There will be dogs falling into each group that are not aggressive and cannot herd, but the chances are stacked in the favor of their genes.
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed that a lot of Bostons seem to be DA... however I can't say I've met more than one or two other small terriers ever to be dog aggressive. Certainly their tenacity adds to their aggresion in the pits.
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, nope... I was raised with pit bulls that were the loves of my life and the best dogs I've ever known in shelters were pit bulls as well. My GSD is completely friendly with other adult dogs. He doesn't play much, but he tolerates them very well and is not overwhelmed. He comes to work with me at the dog park for about 10 hours a week and is used as the temperament dog there as well. An older male boxer happened to come in just a few days ago while we were there and was doing well with him, then reacted to Frag fixating on a ball, and went after him very aggressively, Frag sunk to the ground, tucked tail, and tried getting out from under him, in the few seconds it elapsed before I was able to jump up from behind my desk and clap/yell the dog's name, when he stopped the "attack" and was fine for the rest of their visit. I quotate "attack" because he was not trying to do real harm or he would have, but he came at Frag in a VERY aggressive manner and Frag does not react. He may do some posturing in the park to young males his size, but he is easily called off of such events and we continue on our way.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what dog aggression is? *I THINK I do! But maybe you can enlighten me further with your own definition!)*
> Not taking crap from another dog is not DA. A dog aggressive dog is a dog that seeks out other dogs to hurt them, not one that defends himself when fought. There are obviously many definitions of aggression*,(Very true!)* but that's not something I would consider aggression. If your dog CONTINUED after the other when he/she stopped, I would consider that aggression. If yours made it's point and they both stopped, no. If yours defended himself and the offender didn't stop and they brawled until they could be broken up, I still wouldn't consider yours dog aggressive.
> 
> *shrugs* Just my .02
> 
> *Not really sure what you're trying to prove though??[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly what I was thinking when I read your post.


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> *breed genre (are you referring to the American Staffie here? If so you are absolutely wrong - ask any Staff breeder if they select for DA) (and what do you mean by "GENRE"?)*
> 
> *breeds falling into them(?????)*


I am referring to the term Pit Bull. That is, the American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Pit Bull Terrier. And I am not talking about any reputable breeders. I am talking about the majority- the backyard breeders running fighting rings that have been breeding these breeds to be dog aggressive- and culling those that don't meet the mark- to win fights, for generations. I know that no reputable breeder is going to breed a dog to be dog aggressive.


----------



## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> Heh! Heh! What are they, then? Oh yea, the very devil himself!
> 
> Great example of breed predijuce!
> 
> 
> BTW, it used to be the GSD who was the victim of this same type of breed predijuce, and the Dobie, and maybe the Rottie; so now it is the pittie's turn.


 
Yep! When your dog has been attacked by pits and you have witnessed so many others...well, yeah, just color me breed prejudiced! That would be me!


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> I am referring to the term Pit Bull. That is, the American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and American Pit Bull Terrier. And I am not talking about any reputable breeders. I am talking about the majority- the backyard breeders running fighting rings that have been breeding these breeds to be dog aggressive- and culling those that don't meet the mark- to win fights, for generations. I know that no reputable breeder is going to breed a dog to be dog aggressive.


Could you please look at one of the breeds (Am Pit Bull Terrier)
that you mentioned in your post - seems like it is not listed in the AKC breeds so I am a little curious as to exactly which breed you are actually referring to. 

I thought that the reference was to ALL Pits - not just those of "not reputable" breeders. What would constitute a "reputable" breeder - one who didn't "breed for DA", perhaps?

Are all of the "not reputable" breeders also "back Yard" breeders? Are all "back yard" breeders also "not reputable' whether they "breed for DA" or not.
How much of a "majority" of pit bull breedere are the "back yard"/"not reputable" breeders? Are you also stating that the majority of "Back Yard" breeders are actually running fighting rings for pits? I would never have realized that.

I am just having a hard time following your logic about pit bulls, I must admit. It must be just too late in the day for me.


----------



## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Yep! When your dog has been attacked by pits and you have witnessed so many others...well, yeah, just color me breed prejudiced! That would be me!


At least you have the honesty to admit it. you must have seen a lot of pits picking on other dogs. Hopefully you weren't attacked by too many pitties - that certainly would make one scared of them as a breed.


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> Could you please look at one of the breeds (Am Pit Bull Terrier)
> that you mentioned in your post - seems like it is not listed in the AKC breeds so I am a little curious as to exactly which breed you are actually referring to.
> 
> I thought that the reference was to ALL Pits - not just those of "not reputable" breeders. What would constitute a "reputable" breeder - one who didn't "breed for DA", perhaps?
> 
> Are all of the "not reputable" breeders also "back Yard" breeders? Are all "back yard" breeders also "not reputable' whether they "breed for DA" or not.
> How much of a "majority" of pit bull breedere are the "back yard"/"not reputable" breeders? Are you also stating that the majority of "Back Yard" breeders are actually running fighting rings for pits? I would never have realized that.
> 
> I am just having a hard time following your logic about pit bulls, I must admit. It must be just too late in the day for me.


I don't get what you don't understand. You keep asking jaded questions trying to elicit a response from me, and when you don't get it you ignore everything I've said, so I'm done answering your silly questions. 

You don't seem to know anything about pit bulls, especially if you don't realize that the american pit bull terrier IS a breed, still recognized by the UKC.


----------



## chelle

codmaster said:


> Why do you have really bad pits there?
> 
> Used to live in a big city on the east Coast - i would doubt if you have any worse pits in Iowa than in an inner city, do you think?


Same reason as any city. Pits = badass. You have no nuts? Get a bad boy pit to BE your nuts. It really is that simple around here. Where are the pits in my city? They're in the inner city. They're being paraded around in spike collars by baby boys whose pants are down to their knees and they have to permanently walk with one hand on one side of their britches to keep them held up. Leash in the other hand, of course. OR said pitties are in someone's yard on a frikkin log chain, barking and scaring the snot out of anyone who dares pass by. Responsible, loving pit owners in my city? Funny.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

TaZoR said:


> Absolutely not. I have worked in a vet hosp as a technician and managed a large boarding kennel. I have witnessed fights, the after math of fights, and even tried to break up a fight between 2 pits the owner insisted on boarding together in a large walk in cage. The damage and intensity is unreal. They refuse to let go. And these were nice dogs playing together earlier. Dogs that had been together in the past. I have seen fights in the waiting room that start out as just 2 dogs sniffing and wagging.
> 
> Most other breeds will snap at you and maybe get you a few times, pits are different. * They will go for your neck and not stop until you're dead or physically removed from their jaws. I hated walking into their cages as they seemed to be very unpredictable.* * Imagine if you had to walk into a strange pits cage not knowing its history. many are rescues. *
> 
> I would never expose my dog to this based on my experience. Perhaps some will never attack, but it will only take a few seconds to kill or cause so much damage its unreal. You are also in extreme danger breaking it up. *Look at the statistics...37% of deaths were from pits that made up 2% of the dog breeds.*
> 
> Im only giving my opinion based on my experience, and you are welcome to your opinions.


FALSE.

Been there done that. Still here in 1 piece and never had an issue nor had a pitbull growl or lunge at me. Most if not all jumped in my lap and licked my face.

You do realize any big or large breed dog can do damage not just pitbulls?

Yea, and where are these from?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, they are by no means just another dog.


Last time I checked they were. They have 4 legs, were bred for a purpose(read the history about the different breeds that are considered a pitbull) there are indeed responsible breeders out there breeding GOOD dogs and GOOD representations of the breeds, there are breed specific rescues for them, they are used in different dog sports such as agility, sch, and are used as service dogs and therapy dogs.

I think you and many others need to realize NOT ALL PITBULLS are bad. Not all pits in your state are bad, not pits in America are bad.

I am sincerely sorry for anyone whose dog has been attacked by a pitbull type dog, I feel bad for any dog that gets attacked by another dog. I am just trying to the point across that NOT ALL pitbulls are bad dogs. Its not fair to the dogs.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> I don't get what you don't understand. You keep asking *jaded (???) *questions trying to elicit a response from me, and when you don't get it you ignore everything I've said, so I'm done answering your silly questions. Done or can't? Same difference
> 
> You don't seem to know anything about pit bulls, *(based on?)* especially if you don't realize that the american pit bull terrier IS a breed, still recognized by the UKC.


 
I don't care anything about the UKC, so therefore the american pit bull terrier is NOT a recognized breed.

Just a word though, if you are going to reference a "breed' that is unrecognized by the AKC, why not just mention which organization recognizes the names of breeds that you use?

One last question since you seem to want to lump those three "breeds" that you mentioned together as "pit bulls" and then complain about them fighting -- when is the last time that you heard of (or saw, but I really doubt that you have EVER) a Bull Terrier either as a dog fighter or being DA? This breed has not been a dog fighter in many many years as you would certainly have known if you knew anything about "Pit Bulls"!!

Have a nice day!


----------



## DJEtzel

codmaster said:


> I don't care anything about the UKC, so therefore the american pit bull terrier is NOT a recognized breed.
> 
> Just a word though, if you are going to reference a "breed' that is unrecognized by the AKC, why not just mention which organization recognizes the names of breeds that you use?
> 
> One last question since you seem to want to lump those three "breeds" that you mentioned together as "pit bulls" and then complain about them fighting -- when is the last time that you heard of (or saw, but I really doubt that you have EVER) a Bull Terrier either as a dog fighter or being DA? This breed has not been a dog fighter in many many years as you would certainly have known if you knew anything about "Pit Bulls"!!
> 
> Have a nice day!


Uhm... STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER is what I said. They are a completely different AKC RECOGNIZED breed from the BULL TERRIER. American Kennel Club - Staffordshire Bull Terrier

This breed is still involved in dog fighting rings across the country, and I have witnessed many of these in a shelter where I previously worked in an area known heavily for dog fighting, scarred and fought. 

Thank you for proving your ignorance on the subject. 

btw, just because the AKC doensn't recognize something, DOESN'T mean it isn't real. Do you even know why the AKC doesn't recognize them anymore, or that they used to? These dogs are still ILP'd in AKC events and shown in conformation and events in the UKC. You can't say they don't exist just because you don't approve of the UKC for whatever reason.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Last time I checked they were. They have 4 legs, were bred for a purpose(read the history about the different breeds that are considered a pitbull) there are indeed responsible breeders out there breeding GOOD dogs and GOOD representations of the breeds, there are breed specific rescues for them, they are used in different dog sports such as agility, sch, and are used as service dogs and therapy dogs.
> 
> I think you and many others need to realize NOT ALL PITBULLS are bad. Not all pits in your state are bad, not pits in America are bad.


If they were just another dog, with no special concerns or cautions, this thread would never have been started. They are a breed that needs an educated owner that is not in denial of its genetic tendencies and is willing to accept the responsibility involved with owning such a breed and that entails far more than the average dog. Anything less is irresponsible and negligent.

And if you were a true pit lover, you might want to consider doing the breed justice by acknowledging the truth. The more I hear pit people denying the reality of the breed, well, it just pushes me more to support BSL. It truly is people like you , not the breed, that make me feel that way. I would fear you, and owner's like you, on the end of a pit's leash more than I would fear the pit. Sorry, JMHO.


----------



## Kaz

Of course I would!

I used to play rugby for my university. Let any pit bull come dare close.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> If they were just another dog, with no special concerns or cautions, this thread would never have been started. They are a breed that needs an educated owner that is not in denial of its genetic tendencies and is willing to accept the responsibility involved with owning such a breed and that entails far more than the average dog. Anything less is irresponsible and negligent.
> 
> And if you were a true pit lover, you might want to consider doing the breed justice by acknowledging the truth. The more I hear pit people denying the reality of the breed, well, it just pushes me more to support BSL. It truly is people like you , not the breed, that make me feel that way. I would fear you, and owner's like you, on the end of a pit's leash more than I would fear the pit. Sorry, JMHO.


So what is this "truth" that she isn't acknowledging? 

EVERY breed has to be handled differently because they have different needs, attributes, and habits. I'd like to know what you think owning an average dog is like, and what is so much different in owning a pit bull? Obviously you've owned both the average dog AND a pit bull so that you know the difference?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> If they were just another dog, with no special concerns or cautions, this thread would never have been started. They are a breed that needs an educated owner that is not in denial of its genetic tendencies and is willing to accept the responsibility involved with owning such a breed and that entails far more than the average dog. Anything less is irresponsible and negligent.
> 
> *And if you were a true pit lover, you might want to consider doing the breed justice by acknowledging the truth. The more I hear pit people denying the reality of the breed, well, it just pushes me more to support BSL. It truly is people like you , not the breed, that make me feel that way. I would fear you, and owner's like you, on the end of a pit's leash more than I would fear the pit. Sorry, JMHO*.


So? GSDs also need an educated owner. ALL dogs need an responsible educated owner. A GSD is NOT for everyone, a Husky is not for everyone, Rotties are not for everyone and the list goes on. My Sheltie Mixes were different than my current GSDs, Shelties are also not for everyone.

Excuse me? Have you read anything I have said in this thread?What truth? I believe I have stated in this thread that I KNOW pitbulls are known for dog aggression. I KNOW they are not for everyone. I know there needs to be more responsible owners. And also people like you need to be educated more about the breeds. I have been around many pitbulls.NO ONE WHO IS DEFENDING PITS ARE DENYING ANYTHING? Where are you people getting this? Also if you actually read anything I have said, I said I do NOT own a pitbull. But if I did, I sure will make sure he/she is well trained, well behaved, a good representation of the breed, and I will be happy to educated the uneducated. Also I will defend this breed as they have grown on me and they have a special place in my heart. I am making you push for BSL? You do realize that if there is a ban that is proposed in your area, GSDs will more than likely be put on that list? You do realize they are also on BSLs hit list? You should read up on BSL and that is truly not effective. I am not denying anything.

Do not apologize. It is ignorance like yours that cause BSL and adds fire to it.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> So what is this "truth" that she isn't acknowledging?
> 
> EVERY breed has to be handled differently because they have different needs, attributes, and habits. I'd like to know what you think owning an average dog is like, and what is so much different in owning a pit bull? Obviously you've owned both the average dog AND a pit bull so that you know the difference?


Nope, did my homework on pit bulls and would never own one due to its genetic tendencies. (But I have had my dog attacked by pits, I have been attacked by a pit, my ex-bf was attacked by a pit, and I have witnessed many a pit attack). Many breeds have different genetics tendencies, but most people that own those breeds do not deny their dog's potential and take whatever necessary precautions that are needed.

Many dog breeds do not need special considerations above and beyond just being dogs. Many breeds are not bred to be HA and DA. These two genetic aspects are the root of BSL and the cause of many horrible attacks. You are more than well aware that most pits have the genetics for DA. You also know that they will not fight to dominate, but to finish. I know this from your other posts on here. That is the truth that so many pit owners/advocates deny. No they are just not another dog.

I have had my share of HA dogs, do you really think I should have treated them just like any other dog? Do you really think my HA dogs were really just like any other dog?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Nope, did my homework on pit bulls and would never own one due to its genetic tendencies. (But I have had my dog attacked by pits, I have been attacked by a pit, my ex-bf was attacked by a pit, and I have witnessed many a pit attack). Many breeds have different genetics tendencies, but most people that own those breeds do not deny their dog's potential and take whatever necessary precautions that are needed.
> 
> Many dog breeds do not need special considerations above and beyond just being dogs. Many breeds are not bred to be HA and DA. These two genetic aspects are the root of BSL and the cause of many horrible attacks. You are more than well aware that most pits have the genetics for DA. You also know that they will not fight to dominate, but to finish. I know this from your other posts on here. That is the truth that so many pit owners/advocates deny. No they are just not another dog.
> 
> I have had my share of HA dogs, do you really think I should have treated them just like any other dog? Do you really think my HA dogs were really just like any other dog?


Whoa! Pitbulls are NOT supposed to be HA! That is NOT in their breed standard and NOT in any of the dogs that are considered Pitbulls. yes, they are KNOWN to be dog agressive, and so are other breeds. Dobermans and a few other breeds are known to have same-sex aggression, but I know people who have Dobermans of the same sex in the same household. Should people who own those dogs go above and beyond to own those breeds?Akitas are also very well known for dog aggression should people go above and beyond if they own them?


----------



## Falkosmom

*I wrote:*



Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, they are by no means just another dog.


*You responded:*



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Last time I checked they were.


*Then you wrote:*



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Excuse me? Have you read anything I have said in this thread?What truth? I believe I have stated in this thread that I KNOW pitbulls are known for dog aggression. I KNOW they are not for everyone. I know there needs to be more responsible owners. And also people like you need to be educated more about the breeds. I have been around many pitbulls.NO ONE WHO IS DEFENDING PITS ARE DENYING ANYTHING? Where are you people getting this? Also if you actually read anything I have said, I said I do NOT own a pitbull.


First you denied pits being different from the average dog then you go on to write how a pit is nowhere near being just another dog. You could have save both of us all this typing just by saying that in the first place.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Whoa! Pitbulls are NOT supposed to be HA! That is NOT in their breed standard and NOT in any of the dogs that are considered Pitbulls. yes, they are KNOWN to be dog agressive, and so are other breeds. Dobermans and a few other breeds are known to have same-sex aggression, but I know people who have Dobermans of the same sex in the same household. Should people who own those dogs go above and beyond to own those breeds?Akitas are also very well known for dog aggression should people go above and beyond if they own them?


Not trying to say that pits are bred to be HA. I am just making the point that some breeds come with special considerations. Not all dogs are bred to be just another dog.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> *I wrote:*
> 
> 
> 
> *You responded:*
> 
> 
> 
> *Then you wrote:*
> 
> 
> 
> First you denied pits being different from the average dog then you go on to write how a pit is nowhere near being just another dog. You could have save both of us all this typing just by saying that in the first place.


No I didn't because there are many breeds out there that are like them and different breeds can be labeled as a pitbull. Like I said Akitas are also known for DA, and also GSDs are not everyone. There is not one dog that is a "one size" fits all. They are just like other dogs they were made for something, but also have the quirks and problems like other dog breeds. All breeds have the pros and cons.

And please show me an example of the "average dog" because no dog is the same.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Not trying to say that pits are bred to be HA. I am just making the point that some breeds come with special considerations. Not all dogs are bred to be just another dog.


But Pitbulls aren't the only ones who need "special consideration", so that doesn't make a special thing just for Pitbulls. Its like that with many breeds, so they are just like other dogs, because there are other breeds who are like that.


----------



## Falkosmom

One more time.



Falkosmom said:


> Sorry, they are by no means just another dog.


 


Jessiewessie99 said:


> Last time I checked they were.





Falkosmom said:


> First you denied pits being different from the average dog then you go on to write how a pit is nowhere near being just another dog. You could have save both of us all this typing just by saying that in the first place.


 


Jessiewessie99 said:


> No I didn't because there are many breeds out there that are like them and different breeds can be labeled as a pitbull. They are just like other dogs they were made for something, but also have the quirks and problems like other dog breeds. All breeds have the pros and cons.
> 
> And please show me an example of the "average dog" because no dog is the same.


And one more time, the average dog is not bred to be HA or DA. They might have been bred for a variety of other qualities, such as hunting or even "just" pets, but one cannot classify the pit's DA as just a quirk or a problem like any other dog breed. Average dog is just a dog, found in most pet homes, not bred for extremes, ordinary, not news worthy.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> But Pitbulls aren't the only ones who need "special consideration", so that doesn't make a special thing just for Pitbulls. Its like that with many breeds, so they are just like other dogs, because there are other breeds who are like that.


Yes, Poodles need groomed, but don't compare that to the requirements of a pit bull. The pit bull still has special considerations that are far above and beyond those of other breeds. No, a pit bull is not like a Poodle. The difference between pit bulls and other breeds bred to be DA is that the other breed proponents acknowlege and embrace their dogs specific needs, they don't run around trying to convince people that their chosed DA breed is no different from any other dog.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> One more time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one more time, the average dog is not bred to be HA or DA. They might have been bred for a variety of other qualities, such as hunting or even "just" pets, but one cannot classify the pit's DA as just a quirk or a problem like any other dog breed. *Average dog is just a dog, found in most pet homes, not bred for extremes, ordinary, not news worthy.*


Alot of other dogs have DA. I do not know of a breed that was purposely bred to be HA. DA is common in other breeds, not just pitbulls. But it is a problem in other breeds, other dogs have it too not just pitbulls.

That can be ANY breed. There are many homes where pitbulls are in most pet homes. There are many people out there who do indeed responsibly own pitbulls, the dog are well trained, well behaved and the owners are responsible. Pitbulls are NOT the only dogs in the news, I hear of other dog attacks caused by other dog breeds.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> Yes, Poodles need groomed, but don't compare that to the requirements of a pit bull. The pit bull still has special considerations that are far above and beyond those of other breeds. No, a pit bull is not like a Poodle. The difference between pit bulls and other breeds bred to be DA is that the other breed proponents acknowlege and embrace their dogs specific needs, they don't run around trying to convince people that their chosed DA breed is no different from any other dog.


Pitbull owners and enthusiast do acknowledge the traits and everything that pitbulls come with. No one is denying anything.


----------



## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Alot of other dogs have DA. I do not know of a breed that was purposely bred to be HA. DA is common in other breeds, not just pitbulls. But it is a problem in other breeds, other dogs have it too not just pitbulls.
> 
> That can be ANY breed. There are many homes where pitbulls are in most pet homes. There are many people out there who do indeed responsibly own pitbulls, the dog are well trained, well behaved and the owners are responsible. Pitbulls are NOT the only dogs in the news, I hear of other dog attacks caused by other dog breeds.


 
DA is not common in other breeds. It can be found in other breeds, but it is not the norm and it is a highly undesireable quality for most breeds and most good breeders try to breed away from it. There are some other breeds bred to be DA, but they are not common, and nobody walks around pretending like they are not bred to be DA and blaming it on the upbringing, socialization or whatever excuse is handy.

Yes, pit bulls are primarily in pet homes. But they are not the breed of choice for most people or families.

Here are the top 10 from the AKC: Labrador, German Shepherd, Yorkshire Terriers, Beagles, Golden Retrievers, Bulldogs, Boxers, Dachsunds, Poodles, Shih Tzus

Nope, sorry, don't see people snapping up any breeds bred for dog aggression there. Not saying you won't have a DA dog crop up in these breeds, just saying none of them are bred for it. Looks like DA dogs aren't really in demand in the average home.


----------



## Falkosmom

When I said a pit bull is not like another dog, you responded:



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Last time I checked they were.


Then you followed it up with:



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Excuse me? Have you read anything I have said in this thread?What truth? I believe I have stated in this thread that I KNOW pitbulls are known for dog aggression. I KNOW they are not for everyone. I know there needs to be more responsible owners. NO ONE WHO IS DEFENDING PITS ARE DENYING ANYTHING? Where are you people getting this?


Your follow up statement is the antithesis to your first response. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Kaz

Los Angeles has wayyyyy too many pitbulls. Especially among the hispanic community.


----------



## crackem

Falkosmom said:


> When I said a pit bull is not like another dog, you responded:
> 
> 
> 
> Then you followed it up with:
> 
> 
> 
> Your follow up statement is the antithesis to your first response. You can't have it both ways.


Except she wasn't trying to have it both ways. She said they are "known" for having dog aggression. How is that different than any other dog? What a dog is and what it's stereotype is, aren't the same thing.

I've have had a ton more problems with DA in GSD's than any pitbulls I've met. We lived in a poorer city loaded with pits everywhere. Everytime we went on a walk, drove in a car, bike ride, anything, the number one dog was some sort of pit mix and there were rarely any problems.

We've been charged by all sorts of dogs over the years, Had a BC mix attack my GSD when it busted thru a door to get her walking down the sidewalk. That one took a nice boot to the head from me and decided to quit. Been chased by afew rotties and a ton of labs actually. I can think of one pitbull that ran across the street at us, I gave my leash to my wife and stood between the dogs and told it no. He stopped, sniffed the ground, gave a glance and went back home.

I've met a lot of every type of breed that I thought were totally crap, I can't say that about pitbulls. I've met less than a handful of dogs that I didn't think were quite right, and hundreds more that had excellent family temperaments.


----------



## llombardo

Falkosmom said:


> DA is not common in other breeds. It can be found in other breeds, but it is not the norm and it is a highly undesireable quality for most breeds and most good breeders try to breed away from it. There are some other breeds bred to be DA, but they are not common, and nobody walks around pretending like they are not bred to be DA and blaming it on the upbringing, socialization or whatever excuse is handy.
> 
> Yes, pit bulls are primarily in pet homes. But they are not the breed of choice for most people or families.
> 
> Here are the top 10 from the AKC: Labrador, German Shepherd, Yorkshire Terriers, Beagles, Golden Retrievers, Bulldogs, Boxers, Dachsunds, Poodles, Shih Tzus
> 
> Nope, sorry, don't see people snapping up any breeds bred for dog aggression there. Not saying you won't have a DA dog crop up in these breeds, just saying none of them are bred for it. Looks like DA dogs aren't really in demand in the average home.



They are not the breed of choice for most families because of ignorance. I don't believe for a minute you can breed a dog to be aggressive....can a person breed to have a serial killer child? No, its all in the enviroment, how its raised, and what abuse it has to endure. My german shepherd is the daughter of two guard dogs that won't let anyone near them and guess what she's a big baby...The only fault with pit bulls is they are probably the most loyal dog breed and will do anything to please their owners, whether its good or bad. I once met someone that fed their pit(he was a guard dog) gun powder..that is really just demented. These dogs are locked in small rooms, starved for food and attention, beaten, and then fought...if they lose they are killed or let loose if they win they get to do it all again...yep that is a nice life, but again its what they are trained to do--just like a child that is abused--physically or mentally--when they grow up they have issues. Part of a definition of a pit bull..._With time, the dogs became more commonly domesticated due to their loyalty, loving and gentle nature with their owners__"aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable"/I]American Pit Bull Terriers generally have a lot of energy and benefit from exercise and stimulation to channel their energy properly and avoid becoming frustrated, bored, or destructive/I] *They are no different then any other breed...its all about what is put ino them and what kind of training they get...they will only be what their owners want them to be*_


----------



## llombardo

And here is a list of bully breeds:
Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
American Bulldog
American Staffordshire Terrier
Boston Terrier
Boxer
Bull Terrier
Bulldog
Bullmastiff
French Bulldog
Olde English Bulldogge
Pit Bull Terrier
Pug
Renascence Bulldog
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Victorian Bulldogge


The pug looks to be the most dangerous followed the boston terrier..


----------



## ayoitzrimz

llombardo said:


> They are not the breed of choice for most families because of ignorance. I don't believe for a minute you can breed a dog to be aggressive....can a person breed to have a serial killer child? No, its all in the enviroment, how its raised, and what abuse it has to endure. My german shepherd is the daughter of two guard dogs that won't let anyone near them and guess what she's a big baby...The only fault with pit bulls is they are probably the most loyal dog breed and will do anything to please their owners, whether its good or bad. I once met someone that fed their pit(he was a guard dog) gun powder..that is really just demented. These dogs are locked in small rooms, starved for food and attention, beaten, and then fought...if they lose they are killed or let loose if they win they get to do it all again...yep that is a nice life, but again its what they are trained to do--just like a child that is abused--physically or mentally--when they grow up they have issues. Part of a definition of a pit bull..._With time, the dogs became more commonly domesticated due to their loyalty, loving and gentle nature with their owners__"aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable"/I]American Pit Bull Terriers generally have a lot of energy and benefit from exercise and stimulation to channel their energy properly and avoid becoming frustrated, bored, or destructive/I] *They are no different then any other breed...its all about what is put ino them and what kind of training they get...they will only be what their owners want them to be*_


_

Take two DA dogs, breed them. Take the most DA puppy, find another DA dog and breed those two... and so on and so forth... You may not believe it's possible, but you are arguing with science...

BTw, I have no opinions on this thread, just on that comment..._


----------



## Falkosmom

crackem said:


> Except she wasn't trying to have it both ways. She said they are "known" for having dog aggression. How is that different than any other dog? What a dog is and what it's stereotype is, aren't the same thing.


First she said they are just like any other dog, then she said they are know for DA. That is called having it both ways. DA can and does occur in other breeds, but as a whole, they are not bred to be DA. So yes, they are very different from other dogs. Pits are not stereotyped for being bred to be DA, it is a fact that they have been bred for generations to be DA.


----------



## Falkosmom

llombardo said:


> They are not the breed of choice for most families because of ignorance.


People/families are ignorant for not choosing a pit bull for a pet? 

Pray tell, how do you arrive at that? Because you think it is a great breed, others are ignorant for choosing a lab?


----------



## Falkosmom

llombardo said:


> And here is a list of bully breeds:
> Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog
> American Bulldog
> American Staffordshire Terrier
> Boston Terrier
> Boxer
> Bull Terrier
> Bulldog
> Bullmastiff
> French Bulldog
> Olde English Bulldogge
> Pit Bull Terrier
> Pug
> Renascence Bulldog
> Staffordshire Bull Terrier
> Victorian Bulldogge
> 
> 
> The pug looks to be the most dangerous followed the boston terrier..


I am confused. This thread is about pit bulls, not defining bully breeds. What is your point?


----------



## Falkosmom

ayoitzrimz said:


> Take two DA dogs, breed them. Take the most DA puppy, find another DA dog and breed those two... and so on and so forth... You may not believe it's possible, but you are arguing with science...
> 
> BTw, I have no opinions on this thread, just on that comment...


Thank you for your knowledgeable input.


----------



## Falkosmom

llombardo said:


> I once met someone that fed their pit(he was a guard dog) gun powder..that is really just demented. These dogs are locked in small rooms, starved for food and attention, beaten, and then fought...if they lose they are killed or let loose if they win they get to do it all again...yep that is a nice life, but again its what they are trained to do--just like a child that is abused--physically or mentally--when they grow up they have issues.


All the events I have witnessed were by dogs seemingly well fed, groomed and well loved by their misguided owners, the owners did not acknowledge the breed and the innocents paid.


----------



## codmaster

DJEtzel said:


> Uhm... STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER is what I said. They are a completely different AKC RECOGNIZED breed from the BULL TERRIER. American Kennel Club - Staffordshire Bull Terrier
> 
> This breed is still involved in dog fighting rings across the country, and I have witnessed many of these in a shelter where I previously worked in an area known heavily for dog fighting, scarred and fought.
> 
> Thank you for proving your ignorance on the subject.
> 
> btw, just because the AKC doensn't recognize something, DOESN'T mean it isn't real. Do you even know why the AKC doesn't recognize them anymore, or that they used to? These dogs are still ILP'd in AKC events and shown in conformation and events in the UKC. You can't say they don't exist just because you don't approve of the UKC for whatever reason.


*WHAT YOU SAID WAS:* 'I am referring to the term Pit Bull. That is, the American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and *American Pit Bull Terrier*" Just in case that you may have forgotten or changed your mind.

Bull!


----------



## codmaster

Just another complete misinterpretation - but ok!


----------



## Falkosmom

llombardo said:


> Part of a definition of a pit bull..._"aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable"/I_


_

'"Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic", and you really thought this is in the standard because it is *not* hereditary? Did you really think it was merely a suggestion to guide pit owners while raising a pit? It is in the standard so that pit breeders know what to breed for, not how to raise their dogs. Pits have been bred for DA, pits have been bred not to have HA. You can mold it, shape it, or control it, but it is genetic._


----------



## crackem

Sometimes I wonder just how much time some on here actually spend with dogs


----------



## GregK

crackem said:


> Sometimes I wonder just how much time some on here actually spend with dogs


You kidding? You don't need to. You can get all the dog training and dog behavior experience you need right here on the good ol' internet!!


:tongue:


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> And one more time, the average dog is not bred to be HA or DA. They might have been bred for a variety of other qualities, such as hunting or even "just" pets, but one cannot classify the pit's DA as just a quirk or a problem like any other dog breed. Average dog is just a dog, found in most pet homes, not bred for extremes, ordinary, not news worthy.


Why can't we classify DA is just a quirk or problem like any other breed. My boss can't take her Australian Shepherd around kids because he will nip/herd them. Some people can't take their pit bull around other dogs because they are dog aggressive and may hurt them. WHAT'S the difference?



codmaster said:


> *WHAT YOU SAID WAS:* 'I am referring to the term Pit Bull. That is, the American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and *American Pit Bull Terrier*" Just in case that you may have forgotten or changed your mind.
> 
> Bull!


You have no idea what an American Pit Bull Terrier is. It isn't a BULL TERRIER. It's the breed that STARTED pit bulls. United Kennel Club: American Pit Bull Terrier (Revised November 1, 2008)

These have been used in dog fighting most commonly in the past, now they are making up American Bullies which are doing most of the fighting, and are staying dog aggressive. 

Like I said, you have no idea what you're talking about and it's obvious. 



codmaster said:


> Just another complete misinterpretation - but ok!


Whatever you want to call it. :laugh:


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> Why can't we classify DA is just a quirk or problem like any other breed. My boss can't take her Australian Shepherd around kids because he will nip/herd them. Some people can't take their pit bull around other dogs because they are dog aggressive and may hurt them. WHAT'S the difference?
> 
> 
> :laugh:


The degree of the aggression! You cannot compare nipping to seriously maiming or killing. Really?

You also cannot compare a person that sees nipping as threat to a person that views dog fighting as a quirk or a problem, and not the danger that it is. You are talking apples and oranges.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

crackem said:


> Except she wasn't trying to have it both ways. She said they are "known" for having dog aggression. How is that different than any other dog? What a dog is and what it's stereotype is, aren't the same thing.
> 
> I've have had a ton more problems with DA in GSD's than any pitbulls I've met. We lived in a poorer city loaded with pits everywhere. Everytime we went on a walk, drove in a car, bike ride, anything, the number one dog was some sort of pit mix and there were rarely any problems.
> 
> We've been charged by all sorts of dogs over the years, Had a BC mix attack my GSD when it busted thru a door to get her walking down the sidewalk. That one took a nice boot to the head from me and decided to quit. Been chased by afew rotties and a ton of labs actually. I can think of one pitbull that ran across the street at us, I gave my leash to my wife and stood between the dogs and told it no. He stopped, sniffed the ground, gave a glance and went back home.
> 
> I've met a lot of every type of breed that I thought were totally crap, I can't say that about pitbulls. I've met less than a handful of dogs that I didn't think were quite right, and hundreds more that had excellent family temperaments.


Yes thank you! I have had had small dog mixes chase me on my bike rather aggressively! I was trying to help a lost small dog and it tried to bite me. I have been growled at and charged by a cocker spaniel. 
Falkosmom, Daschunds(sp) are known to be aggressive, alot more aggressive than pitbulls. Go look it up if you do not believe me.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

llombardo said:


> They are not the breed of choice for most families because of ignorance. I don't believe for a minute you can breed a dog to be aggressive....can a person breed to have a serial killer child? No, its all in the enviroment, how its raised, and what abuse it has to endure. My german shepherd is the daughter of two guard dogs that won't let anyone near them and guess what she's a big baby...The only fault with pit bulls is they are probably the most loyal dog breed and will do anything to please their owners, whether its good or bad. I once met someone that fed their pit(he was a guard dog) gun powder..that is really just demented. These dogs are locked in small rooms, starved for food and attention, beaten, and then fought...if they lose they are killed or let loose if they win they get to do it all again...yep that is a nice life, but again its what they are trained to do--just like a child that is abused--physically or mentally--when they grow up they have issues. Part of a definition of a pit bull..._With time, the dogs became more commonly domesticated due to their loyalty, loving and gentle nature with their owners__"aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable"/I]American Pit Bull Terriers generally have a lot of energy and benefit from exercise and stimulation to channel their energy properly and avoid becoming frustrated, bored, or destructive/I] *They are no different then any other breed...its all about what is put ino them and what kind of training they get...they will only be what their owners want them to be*_


_

Excllent point. I have also met dogs, pitbull type dogs come from these situations and turn out to be great family companions.

At the shelter I volunteer for a family who had a young child already and one on the way were looking for a playmate for their Doberman. They looked at the Cocker Spaniel we had but she was growling at everyone and wasn't a good choice. So they went to a pitbull type dog instead, who they met with, and brought their Doberman with and their young child, they ended up adopting the pitbull. This family was not your stereotypical "gangster" people, they were a nice polite family who just wanted a friendly sweet companion and playmate for their current dog. Pitbulls were once called "Nanny Dogs"._


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> I am confused. This thread is about pit bulls, not defining bully breeds. What is your point?


Those are breeds that are listed under "Pitbulls" in otherwords they are considered Pitbulls. When you google the term Pitbull they list different dog breeds.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Falkosmom said:


> The degree of the aggression! You cannot compare nipping to seriously maiming or killing. Really?
> 
> You also cannot compare a person that sees nipping as threat to a person that views dog fighting as a quirk or a problem, and not the danger that it is. You are talking apples and oranges.


Dog aggression for ANY DA dog is that way, if you let escalate to that. If you can't control the dog's before such things happening, then you should own a dog. Also nipping/herding can be bad. The dog may not realize that he BIT the child and caused and injury. The dog can knock down a child and cause an injury!

Have you actuallu met or talked to a real responsible ethical breeder of the dogs that can be categorized as a Pitbull?


----------



## chelle

All this talk got me curious about stats in my community. This is the best data I could find from my city and it isn't much of a sampling, but I still found it interesting. And this is 2006 - we have far, far, far more many pits in our communities now.

Dog bites for 2006. (Des Moines, IA) ​
Top 5 breeds -- Bites -- Licensed -- %​• Labrador Retriever -- 56 -- 2,244 -- 2.5%
• Pit Bulls -- 43 -- 151 -- 28.5%
• German Shepherd -- 41 -- 724 -- 5.6%
• Boxer --22 -- 336 -- 6.5%
• Rottweiler --20 -- 348 -- 5.7%

I had thought this crazy thread died and went to thread heaven. Or ****. Yikes!​


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I am more scared of Dachunds than pitbulls.lol.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> The degree of the aggression! You cannot compare nipping to seriously maiming or killing. Really?
> 
> You also cannot compare a person that sees nipping as threat to a person that views dog fighting as a quirk or a problem, and not the danger that it is. You are talking apples and oranges.


The degree of aggression? Not all pits are even dog aggressive, those that are, are not always maiming and killings things. There are plenty of OTHER breeds that are far more dog aggressive. Just because they weren't bred for it doesn't matter. ANY dog aggressive dog is going to have to be handled differently around dogs, that doesn't make them above/below average. They're still just a dog that acts just like a dog.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> The degree of aggression? Not all pits are even dog aggressive, those that are, are not always maiming and killings things. There are plenty of OTHER breeds that are far more dog aggressive. Just because they weren't bred for it doesn't matter. ANY dog aggressive dog is going to have to be handled differently around dogs, that doesn't make them above/below average. They're still just a dog that acts just like a dog.


Not all pits are DA, but most that I have encountered are, and I have lived and still live with numerous pits in my neighborhood.

There is NOT a plethora of other breeds of dogs that are far more DA than pits. And of the few other breeds that are bred to be DA, their numbers are few.

*How could DA not matter, whether it was bred or not?* How could breeding or owning a dangerous dog not matter? How could bringing a genetically DA bred dog into your home and neighborhood not matter?

A DA dog must be handled differently but it is still average? NO WAY. My leash reactive dog is not average and should not be considered average. Hopefully he is just fear reactive. If this is not the case and he continues to become more aggressive, he will never be average. He will not be just a dog that acts like a dog. Average dogs do not snarl, lunge, and bite other dogs just because. Dangerous dogs do, and dangerous dogs are not average.


----------



## llombardo

Falkosmom said:


> Average dogs do not snarl, lunge, and bite other dogs just because. Dangerous dogs do, and dangerous dogs are not average.


Thats not true...I have a golden retriever that will growl, bark, and lunge toward dogs but he's not dog aggressive, its just the way he is--he wouldn't hurt anything but you wouldn't know it if you seen how he reacts to both animals and people out of the home. My other dog loves other dogs and she has snarled, lunged and gone to bite a hairless dog--I don't think she knew what it was and whenever my neighbor walks their pit they avoid my window because my dog goes ballistic and the pit bull looks at her like she's crazy. I had a 120 pound lab that lunged at a pit that was coming to play.....and my dogs are average A dog will be a dog and anything can set off any dog at any time. As an owner of average dogs, I would never let my dogs hurt another dog and if I thought it was a problem I would be the first to fix it, but animal behavior is not the most predictable science by a long shot.


----------



## Falkosmom

_Average_ applies to what is midway between extremes and implies lack of distinction.

Growling, lunging and barking is extreme, _not midway between extremes_, not average. 

Growling, lunging and barking is distinctive, _different from others_, not average.


----------



## llombardo

Falkosmom said:


> _Average_ applies to what is midway between extremes and implies lack of distinction.
> 
> Growling, lunging and barking is extreme, _not midway between extremes_, not average.
> 
> Growling, lunging and barking is distinctive, _different from others_, not average.



Then I'm guessing that you would think my golden retriever is DA because his behavior is not average and can be extreme..extreme enough that people think twice about approaching him but he's a big baby and would kiss them to death...you just wouldn't know it if you seen his behavior.


----------



## Falkosmom

llombardo said:


> Then I'm guessing that you would think my golden retriever is DA because his behavior is not average and can be extreme..extreme enough that people think twice about approaching him but he's a big baby and would kiss them to death...you just wouldn't know it if you seen his behavior.


I do not know your dog and would not presume, as it stands, that he is DA. In fact, it really is of no consequence to me. All I am saying is that his actions are not average. 

I do not have a problem with DA dogs, or leash reactive dogs, as long as the owner acknowleges that the dog is DA and takes appropriate action and care so that innocent people and animals do not get hurt. A responsible owner cannot do this if they are in denial. 

It is becoming increasingly common for pit advocates to feel that it is the responsibilty of other dog owners to protect their dogs from the pit bulls, and if the owner can't protect his dog from their pit bull, then the other dog's owner should just take their dog and go home. Just read some of the other threads on here, especially ones pertaining to dog parks. That is nothing but flippant, discourteous, selfish and callous. It is just plain wrong!


----------



## TaZoR

25 yrs experience working with all breeds as a vet tech and boarding facility has shown me that these dogs are unpredictable. Just this week a man brought his pit in to be put down with his arm and hand severely injured .. the dog he had for yrs attacked him unprovoked and left him with gaping holes all the way through his hand. This is not an exception. 

I have witnessed many owners who bring their other dogs in to be cremated because their pit attacked it, cats also. These attacks are most likely not reported. I have also witnessed attacks first hand. All of the owners are stunned that their dogs could do such a thing. They have been raised right, from puppies, and never neglected or fought. 

Now, you have to remember that many of these dogs were rescued and have been fought and or neglected. these dogs end up in the hands of inexperienced suburbian people who coddle them and dont realize the alpha instinct. they have little control but all kinds of compassion. many of these dogs come to our establishment with owners without a clue and out of control.

I have walked many dogs past the cages of pits with no reaction and suddenly i walk by with a certain dog and there is a sudden frenzy. I cannot tell you what sets them off, but when it happens, there would be nothing you could do to stop the attack on your dog without extreme damage.

Many people react to the attacks stepping in to free their dogs out of reflex and end up getting injured themselves. 

These dogs were bred to kill bulls among other things so i for one am not surprised just as i am not surprised when i see an untrained herder showing herding skills or a rat terrier chasing a squirrel and so on.

Would i want my dog playing with a pit bull? Despite the owners and others who defend them, after picking up the pieces (literally) of the innocent dogs that have been attacked the answer is no. Am i politically correct? Perhaps not. I may offend many owners, but i choose to keep my dog as safe as possible as that is my job. My dog comes before the hurt feelings of another dog owner. 

Perhaps witnessing an attack first hand, not on a video, or looking at the carcass of a golden retreiver ripped to shreds while the family sobs in uncontrollable grief for the loss compounded with the horrific manner of death would change some minds.

As for me, when i even see a pit bull in the park dragging the owner around.. i'm turning around. It only takes a second to leave everyone wondering...why.


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## GrammaD

llombardo said:


> Then I'm guessing that you would think my golden retriever is DA because his behavior is not average and can be extreme..extreme enough that people think twice about approaching him but he's a big baby and would kiss them to death...you just wouldn't know it if you seen his behavior.


I might presume aggressive.

I would definitely presume poorly trained and a lack of control on the part of the owner.

This level of reactivity is going to get you and your dog into trouble. I would suggest consulting with a behaviorist as well as a trainer to correct this problem.

Keep in mind that after this initial reaction by your dog, all it would take is one poorly placed tooth to end your dog on the euthanasia table. No one will believe it is an accident if he draws blood after "greeting" people or other dogs this way.


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## Mrs.K

Definitely not something to be proud off.


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## _Crystal_

I don't know if this is just how I was raised, but I will never own a pit bull type dog, and I will never let my dog interact with one. Why? Those dogs seem to be happy one second then, snap, attacking something the other. I may be biased, being raised by an anti-pit and pro-shepherd family. I just don't trust those dogs, sadly.

I also know that aggression ispassed down to offspring. If pits come from fighting dogs, and aggression is passed down generation to generation, then I'm just not going to trust those dogs, just because of their predisposition to dog aggression. I know some people are going to hate me for not trusting a dog because of it's breed, but that's just what I believe and that's how I was raised. It may not help that my neighbors pit bull attacked MY dog as a pup, causing her fear aggression, and attacked it's owners. Again, this is just my opinion and how I was raised, so I may not be right. But it is what I believe.


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## Dainerra

TaZoR said:


> 25 yrs experience working with all breeds as a vet tech and boarding facility has shown me that these dogs are unpredictable. Just this week a man brought his pit in to be put down with his arm and hand severely injured .. the dog he had for yrs attacked him unprovoked and left him with gaping holes all the way through his hand. This is not an exception.
> .



I always here this about dog attacks. No one ever saw it coming...

The Anatomy of a Dog Attack

very good reading. Unprovoked often means "I wasn't paying attention and ignored all the signs" or "I don't know anything about dogs so I didn't know anything was wrong"


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## x0emiroxy0x

Are people honestly still arguing about this? You will never teach them anything because they just deny everything. When their dog mauls a 2 year old child or they disappear from this board, we will know what happened to them. Otherwise, this topic is a waste of breath. 99% of the stuff posted from the Pitbull Cult Following is complete crap and everyone knows it, so why argue with them? When people are in cults, it is hard to get them out because they are brainwashed. These people are seriously brainwashed and really think there dogs are innocent little golden retriever puppies. You can't fight ignorance


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## Dainerra

I don't think anyone says they are golden retrievers. They are saying that if you are a responsible owner and know your dog, owning a pit bull is no different than owning any other dog.

After all, GSDs are feared the world over as human aggressive monsters. Doesn't mean that it's true.


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## Falkosmom

Regarding the article, first of all, nobody is talking about pit bulls on their territory. I am talking about pit bulls in public.

Besides, why would a pit bull that has been bred to be so good with humans be so concerned about somebody approaching his property or his human? Most of the pits I have met would be standing there welcoming a stranger. Especially somebody exchanging friendly conversation with is owner. Would that not be a cue to a normal dog, that his owner is calm, relaxed and reacting friendly to this person, that this stranger is most likely a friend? 

The article goes on to say that the dog goes to the front gate to watch for the danger, most pit bulls do that only if they see an animal.

Then it says the dog puts its tail down and growls. This applies to other dogs but not to the majority of pit attacks I have seen. They stand there calm, cool and collected, sometimes not even looking at the intended victim. They usually growl or bark only when they are restrained from their victims or in the middle of a fight. I only knew one pit bull that would growl, raise its hair, or approach its intened victim in a menancing manor, the others were all completely silent and without other signs.

As for body language, once again, I have seen many other breeds misinterpret body language, but most pits are not HA and I have never seen a pit rise to the occasion and protect its master from a human. Home invasions are rampant were I live. I have never heard of one where the home owner had an other breed dog, only pit bulls. The pit bulls have welcomed the strangers in, and allowed their owners to be beaten and tied. One can only assume that the pits also kissed the home invaders and showed the intruders where the money was, they certainly did not protect.

IMO, this article is well written in regards to dogs on their property and human aggression, but does not apply to pits or dog aggression. Pits do not give off warnings like other breeds, one second they are fine, and the next second they are shredding some innocent dog. And before you pit advocates even say it, no, the signs were not there and, no, nobody missed a thing. I know and see the warning signs in other dogs. Pits seldom give off warning signs.

I live, eat, and breathe pit bulls. My neighborhood is loaded with them, the parks are loaded with them. I walked my GSD the other morning and a teenage girl points at us and says to her friend, "Look! That woman stole a police dog!" Really? Many don't even have a clue that somebody can own another breed of dog. 

Most of these pit advocates either own these dogs or work in shelters with these dogs where they have full control of the damage these dogs do to others. The average person does not. It sickens me that they promote the breed without living amongst dozens of pits that they have no control over. I am afraid to walk the streets of the neighborhood with my dogs not because of a pit's bad rep, but because of what a pit really is. I am living a pit bull nightmare.


----------



## BR870

llombardo said:


> I don't believe for a minute you can breed a dog to be aggressive....can a person breed to have a serial killer child? No, its all in the enviroment, how its raised, and what abuse it has to endure. *They are no different then any other breed...its all about what is put ino them and what kind of training they get...they will only be what their owners want them to be*


Sorry but you are absolutely wrong. A dogs nerves, fearfulness, aggression... All are far more genetic than they are environment/learned.

Lurk more, post less...


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## TaZoR

I completely agree. The worst part is they are often finding homes for them by calling them lab mixes or other mixes...i know that most dog ppl who are experienced wouldnt fall for it, but many people are. Now we have the equivalent of 2 yr olds playing with a loaded gun.


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## GrammaD

Randall Lockwood has it right when he describes pit fighting breeds as "liars." They do not give the usual body language warnings, often using play invitation behaviors to draw another dog (and even a human) in in order to initiate an attack. They wag their tails and display other physical signs of happiness with the task while engaged in a mauling. 

There are many myths that have been perpetrated by misguided pit fighting breed advocates. The whole "culling the man biters" (read George Armitage's book, or John Colby's for the truth on this) and "it's the owner not the breed" which is belied by the large (and growing) number of attacks on humans by dogs raised and trained by people who do everything right and still end up degloved or scalped etc.

Yes, there are responsible owners of these types of dogs and they do not do stupid things to prove a point about the dogs, like taking them into situations likely to trigger or failing to use proper types of restraints or assuming that the well socialized puppy will remain non-aggressive after age 2 (typical time that displays of dangerous behaviors become noticeable)

But those types of owners are few and far between and I never assume that the pit I see on the street has such an owner. Result is, I will never allow my dogs to interact with them nor will I allow my granddaughter to even play in their vicinity- no matter how well supervised.

My 20 daughter was menaced two days ago by what was an obviously well bred Am Staff, leashed and walking by, and the owner barely pulled the dog back in time. So this is not, as is falsely believed, limited to poorly bred dogs.


----------



## codmaster

llombardo said:


> Thats not true...I have a golden retriever that will *growl, bark, and lunge toward dogs but he's not dog aggressive*, its just the way he is--he wouldn't hurt anything but you wouldn't know it if you seen how he reacts to both animals and people out of the home. *My other dog loves other dogs and she has snarled, lunged and gone to bite a hairless dog*--I don't think she knew what it was and whenever my neighbor walks their pit they avoid my window because my dog goes ballistic and the pit bull looks at her like she's crazy. *I had a 120 pound lab that lunged at a pit that was coming to play.....and my dogs are average* A dog will be a dog and anything can set off any dog at any time. As an owner of *average dogs*, I would never let my dogs hurt another dog and if I thought it was a problem I would be the first to fix it, but animal behavior is not the most predictable science by a long shot.


Are you kidding us all?


----------



## GregK

GrammaD said:


> My 20 daughter was menaced two days ago by what was an obviously well bred Am Staff, leashed and walking by, and the owner barely pulled the dog back in time. So this is not, as is falsely believed, limited to poorly bred dogs.


 
How do you know it was a 'well bred' dog?


----------



## codmaster

GrammaD said:


> Randall Lockwood has it right when he describes pit fighting breeds as "liars." They do not give the usual body language warnings, often using play invitation behaviors to draw another dog (and even a human) in in order to initiate an attack. They wag their tails and display other physical signs of happiness with the task while engaged in a mauling.
> 
> There are many myths that have been perpetrated by misguided pit fighting breed advocates. The whole "culling the man biters" (read George Armitage's book, or John Colby's for the truth on this) and "it's the owner not the breed" which is belied by the large (and growing) number of attacks on humans by dogs raised and trained by people who do everything right and still end up degloved or scalped etc.
> 
> Yes, there are responsible owners of these types of dogs and they do not do stupid things to prove a point about the dogs, like taking them into situations likely to trigger or failing to use proper types of restraints or assuming that the well socialized puppy will remain non-aggressive after age 2 (typical time that displays of dangerous behaviors become noticeable)
> 
> But those types of owners are few and far between and I never assume that the pit I see on the street has such an owner. Result is, I will never allow my dogs to interact with them nor will I allow my granddaughter to even play in their vicinity- no matter how well supervised.
> 
> My 20 daughter was menaced two days ago by what was an obviously well bred Am Staff, leashed and walking by, and the owner barely pulled the dog back in time. So this is not, as is falsely believed, limited to poorly bred dogs.


Would you believe the same thing about GSD's - that they are vicious, etc. etc.?

Because many people do just that.

And because of one incident with one dog, you ban the entire breed (No wait, actually you are banning multiple dog breeds aren't you?).

Have you ever met a friendly Staffie or Bull Terrier?


----------



## GrammaD

GregK said:


> How do you know it was a 'well bred' dog?


I am at shows several times a month. I know when a dog comes from a conf breeder. This guy was so good looking I did a double take


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

In response to that last question codmaster --No. But I have met friendly pits  Rocky's best friend is a female pit. But they aren't allowed to play anymore because she has attacked two dogs at the dog park now. She only dislikes "dominant" dogs. Rocky is not dominant. But now I am worried she might turn on him when she gets mad at the other dogs. I believe Djetzel brought this up??? Redirecting aggression? It seems pits do that a lot.


----------



## GregK

GrammaD said:


> I am at shows several times a month. I know when a dog comes from a conf breeder. This guy was so good looking I did a double take


I see. So you're going by looks. Interesting....


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

GrammaD said:


> I am at shows several times a month. I know when a dog comes from a conf breeder. This guy was so good looking I did a double take


That is impossible. No offense....

Some of the best looking german shepherds on this forum are from backyard breeder.

If the dog was from a reputable breeder, it wouldn't have a bad temperament. I don't know any of the breeders on this forum (robinhuerta, etc) that breed dogs that lunge at strangers for no reason...


----------



## GrammaD

codmaster said:


> Would you believe the same thing about GSD's - that they are vicious, etc. etc.?
> 
> Because many people do just that.
> 
> And because of one incident with one dog, you ban the entire breed (No wait, actually you are banning multiple dog breeds aren't you?).
> 
> Have you ever met a friendly Staffie or Bull Terrier?


I have amazing powers! I can ban dogs now! 

And yes. I go to shows. I have met friendly bully breeds. I still do not trust them.

I have also assisted with rescues of friendly bully breeds. I still do not trust them.

And yes, I believe GSDs can be vicious. Until I know the dog and the owner, I don't trust ANY dog. Not even a Golden.

But even after getting to know a dog of a breed genetically selected for DA for many, many generations I do not trust them.

You, of course, are free to have a different POV


----------



## GrammaD

x0emiroxy0x said:


> That is impossible. No offense....
> 
> Some of the best looking german shepherds on this forum are from backyard breeder.
> 
> If the dog was from a reputable breeder, it wouldn't have a bad temperament. I don't know any of the breeders on this forum (robinhuerta, etc) that breed dogs that lunge at strangers for no reason...


It's actually not impossible. Structure is a good tell. Bad temperaments abound in the breed ring, sadly, so I guess I should have specified "conformation bred" versus "well bred." 

But after 20+ years I absolutely can tell a byb dog from a conf bred dog.


----------



## Falkosmom

TaZoR said:


> All of the owners are stunned that their dogs could do such a thing. They have been raised right, from puppies, and never neglected or fought.
> 
> Now, you have to remember that many of these dogs were rescued and have been fought and or neglected. these dogs end up in the hands of inexperienced suburbian people who coddle them and dont realize the alpha instinct. they have little control but all kinds of compassion. many of these dogs come to our establishment with owners without a clue and out of control.


Not all of those suburbia pups are rescues. Way too many people are sucked into the pit advocate's denial. Those suburbia pits are the worst and have been the most aggressive that I have encountered. It is awful to see their dogs attack and the owner's jump around screaming Fluffy stop it, terrified of what their dog really is and not prepared to control or stop it. It is seldom the inner city hoodlum behind such attacks. They are busy cooking meth in their kitchens, the last thing they want is to have a random dog fight draw attention to them.




GrammaD[/;2389826 said:


> Randall Lockwood has it right when he describes pit fighting breeds as "liars." They do not give the usual body language warnings, often using play invitation behaviors to draw another dog (and even a human) in in order to initiate an attack. They wag their tails and display other physical signs of happiness with the task while engaged in a mauling.


Yes! Yes! Yes! Imagine that look of joy on your dog's face when you come home, that is all too often the look on a pit's face while chewing on some innocent animal. It makes them happy! That is one time that a bit bull will signal what is on its mind. That is a theme repeated over and over in pit bull attacks that I have witnessed.


----------



## Falkosmom

x0emiroxy0x said:


> In response to that last question codmaster --No. But I have met friendly pits  Rocky's best friend is a female pit. But they aren't allowed to play anymore because she has attacked two dogs at the dog park now. She only dislikes "dominant" dogs. Rocky is not dominant. But now I am worried she might turn on him when she gets mad at the other dogs. I believe Djetzel brought this up??? Redirecting aggression? It seems pits do that a lot.


 
Most of the DA pits I have met stay away from dominant dogs and attack the submissive or friendly ones. Honestly, I have never seen a pit fight a dominant dog. I am sure it happens, but I haven't seen it.

My dog-loving older dog has been attacked too many times by pits. I have yet to have a pit approach my leash reactive pup. 

You should be concerned about your dog continuing to play with that pit. She just might turn on Rocky because, as you stated, she is a DA pit bull. If you decide to let them interact, please for your dog's sake have a plan in place of how you are going to get her off of him and how will you get a large GSD to your car from the park and where the nearest ER vet is located and how to get there.


----------



## Alexandria610

Dainerra said:


> I don't think anyone says they are golden retrievers. They are saying that if you are a responsible owner and know your dog, owning a pit bull is no different than owning any other dog.
> 
> After all, GSDs are feared the world over as human aggressive monsters. Doesn't mean that it's true.


I have to agree with this, big time. While I love bully breeds in general, I am well aware of their capabilities, breeding history, etc. etc. Rottweilers were originally bred as bull-baiting dogs, similar to what other bully breeds were ORIGINALLY bred for. Any dog bred for such a violent business will more than likely still have tendencies towards this, especially when that breed was further taken into the world of dog fighting, dog baiting, etc.

However, that does not mean that every pit bull, amstaf, american bulldog, bull terrier, etc. will automatically have an 'evil' or 'ferocious' or 'aggressive' tendency. It simply means, like with other breeds that are often banned or viewed by the public to be 'aggressive in nature' (such as the Doberman Pinscher, Rottweiler, and yes, even your lovely GSD) you have to take more precaution. 

Sadly, the general public has further taken these types of breeds and corrupted their image as well as their breeding and made them even harder to keep from showing aggressive tendencies. Again, that means you just have to be more proactive. 

I will not let my dogs approach ANY dog (be it a Doberman, GSD, Pomeranian, Poodle, Dalmatian, Golden Retriever, mutt, mix, etc. etc.) until I know that it will not hurt her. It doesn't matter. Dogs have claws and teeth, and regardless of their breed, they can still maim. True, pits and other bully breeds have large jaws for their size (the lock jaw is a myth, by the way, but their tenacity - as all terriers have - is real. They are indeed the type of dog that will hold on until the very end) and are very tenacious and have a history (due to breeding) of being more DA than most other breeds. But when it comes down to it, they are a dog just like every other dog breed out there. 

Pit bulls and bully breeds have more popularity than other breeds right now, and more advocates trying to fight for their safety due to the heightened media spotlight. Pit bull-type dogs have been mauling people for years, as have Rottweilers, GSD's, Doberman Pinschers, and yes, even Labrador Retrievers, but have more recently been in the news due to wider media coverage. It's like saying that the world 100 years ago was such a better place. Now we have all these sex offenders and murderers and robbers. No. We did then, too. We just didn't have such a vast expanse of media coverage and technology.

I think that if you are trying to change a person's mind about a breed, regardless of what breed it is, it will be hard. I have a family member that is sickened that I own a GSD. You know why? Because when she was young, she was attacked by one. It scarred her (literally and figuratively) for life. No matter how sweet and loveable Alex is, and how many times I try to tell her all the great things about this dog and other German Shepherd Dogs, she refuses to like them or even think they are anything other than blood-thirsty dogs. It's the same when I mention I have a Doberman Pinscher in my house. I know people that won't allow their children to come with them when they visit, and even though Elsa is the sweetest dog I have come across (even more so than my parent's black lab, which, by the way, is the most vicious dog they have ever owned) they always tell me to put her in her crate in a room with the door closed because they don't want the Doberman to maul them or even look at them wrong.

It's a sad thing. But preconceived notions about breeds, regardless of what they are, are everywhere. A lot of people make disgusted faces when I say something about my Chihuahua. "Oh my gosh, you have one of those? An ankle-biter? Does she ever shut up? What a little yapper. I bet she bites all the other dogs." She doesn't do any of those things.

I get people daily asking if my Alex, my GSD, is vicious. I look at them with a cocked eyebrow and question them. "Why?" They look at me like I am stupid and say "well, she's a German Shepherd, isn't she? Those things kill people! They're biters. They hurt others." Again. She isn't. She's one of the sweetest dogs I know. On the other end of the spectrum, I have met one too many GSD's that I thought ought to be put down due to aggression. Scary.

Anyway, I've gone horribly off-topic.

To answer the original question of this thread, yes, I would. So long as the pit bull in question had all of his/her shots, was not aggressive in any way, shape, or form, and was comfortable with us being around him/her. I would take these same precautions for any breed, not just a pit bull.


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## Alexandria610

Falkosmom said:


> She just might turn on Rocky because, as you stated, she is a DA pit bull. If you decide to let them interact, please for your dog's sake have a plan in place of how you are going to get her off of him and how will you get a large GSD to your car from the park and where the nearest ER vet is located and how to get there.


Agreed. However, I don't think anybody should have a dog playing with ANY DA dog, regardless of it being a pit bull, pomeranian, or poodle. I think that it is ridiculous for someone to put others (as well as their dog) in danger by bringing their DA dog to the park. 

I think the majority of people seem to have issues with pits, not because they have a higher chance of being DA than other breeds, but because they are so widely popular and bred. Back in the 1970's, Doberman Pinschers were always the 'bad guy dog' or the 'vicious dog' or the 'DA dogs.' It wasn't because it was true, necessarily, but because they were popular and were being bred rampantly and into everything.

But hey, that's just my view on it. If something is popular and thus more abundant, statistically it will be more prevalent than others.


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## TaZoR

I have a friend who is taking in rescue after rescue passing them on to unsuspecting owners. She is one of those in complete denial about the natural instinct of the breed. She tells them what loving sweethearts they are and will argue til the end of time about gow it was the owners at fault and never the dog. I cannot get through to her but i feel a disaster is just over the horizon. She is in her early twenties and rants and raves over the unfair press they get. For her sake, I hope her inexperience and ridiculous outlook ends without death.


----------



## Alexandria610

TaZoR said:


> I have a friend who is taking in rescue after rescue passing them on to unsuspecting owners. She is one of those in complete denial about the natural instinct of the breed. *She tells them what loving sweethearts they are and will argue til the end of time about gow it was the owners at fault and never the dog.* I cannot get through to her but i feel a disaster is just over the horizon. She is in her early twenties and rants and raves over the unfair press they get. For her sake, I hope her inexperience and ridiculous outlook ends without death.


Sadly, it sometimes is truly the dog. Some dogs just shouldn't be adopted out. It's a sad reality, but not every dog is meant for companionship or ownership. I hate to put dogs down because they MAY exhibit some aggressive tendencies, but if they do, it's the best for everyone involved, including the dog and/or breed. It is true, pits do get really bad wraps on the news - but that's because the ones that are featured are mostly the ones that did something to be viewed as a bad dog.

Like I've stated above, I'm all about the breed. Love them, and will fight for them. But not for the ones that are truly aggressive or have shown tendencies. Not every single dog does, but some do. And sometimes it isn't the owner. Sometimes it really is the dog. But again, that doesn't mean the entire breed is destined to be evil, people/dog hating creatures. But that also doesn't mean every single dog is a precious angel either. It is sad that some are so determined to rid the breed of it's bad wrap that they will claim each and every dog to be a beautiful soul that isn't somehow bad or aggressive. I'm a huge advocate for German Shepherd Dogs, too, but I will be honest and tell you that not EVERY single one is an angel, smart, or a snuggle bear either. 

When it comes down to it, it is the individual dog, not the entire breed. I think that it is ignorant to think either way - not every single individual dog is destined to be evil, nor is every single individual dog destined to be a saint. Just depends on the breeding, training, socialization, and a few other factors. It is one of those breeds that I would definitely NOT recommend as a first dog, or for those that have never owned a pet or been around them growing up. 

Sadly, it is people like your friend who are also damaging the breed. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices (like putting dangerous dogs of the breed to sleep so they don't harm others) and you cannot assume that, just because you want them to be a heavenly dog and an ambassador for the breed means that they will.


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## Alexandria610

I think the real question this thread should be asking is not "would you feel comfortable letting your dog around a pit bull" but rather "would you feel comfortable letting your dog around a DA dog?"

Here's a picture that someone posted on a dog trainer's page recently. Take it for what you wish it to mean.










I'm not sure if the size is over the limit or not, if it is I can re-size it. Just took it directly from the site.


----------



## llombardo

codmaster said:


> Are you kidding us all?


You have serious issues and really think you know everything.....its quite disturbing...Its like no one can post anything on here without you coming out with a sarcastic remark or cocky comment....I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way or sees this


----------



## codmaster

x0emiroxy0x said:


> In response to that last question codmaster --No. But I have met friendly pits  Rocky's best friend is a female pit. But they aren't allowed to play anymore because she has attacked two dogs at the dog park now. She only dislikes "dominant" dogs. Rocky is not dominant. But now I am worried she might turn on him when she gets mad at the other dogs. I believe Djetzel brought this up??? Redirecting aggression? It seems pits do that a lot.


 
Might be in their genes.


----------



## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Most of the DA pits I have met stay away from dominant dogs and attack the submissive or friendly ones. Honestly, I have never seen a pit fight a dominant dog. I am sure it happens, but I haven't seen it.
> 
> My dog-loving older dog has been attacked too many times by pits. I have yet to have a pit approach my leash reactive pup.
> 
> You should be concerned about your dog continuing to play with that pit. She just might turn on Rocky because, as you stated, she is a DA pit bull. If you decide to let them interact, please for your dog's sake have a plan in place of how you are going to get her off of him and how will you get a large GSD to your car from the park and where the nearest ER vet is located and how to get there.


It is really good that a nasty pit bull has not attacked your leash reactive puppy. That would be good for neither dog.

I OTOH have had a couple of fortunately leashed pit bulls make very aggressive actions toward my very dominant male GSD (and him back to them!), so I guess maybe not all pit bulls just want to fight with submissive other dogs.


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## codmaster

llombardo said:


> You have serious issues and really think you know everything.....its quite disturbing...Its like no one can post anything on here without you coming out with a sarcastic remark or cocky comment....I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way or sees this


Probably true. But please don't worry about me.


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## codmaster

"
Originally Posted by *llombardo*  
_Thats not true...I have a golden retriever that will *growl, bark, and lunge toward dogs but he's not dog aggressive*, its just the way he is--he wouldn't hurt anything but you wouldn't know it if you seen how he reacts to both animals and people out of the home. *My other dog loves other dogs and she has snarled, lunged and gone to bite a hairless dog*--I don't think she knew what it was and whenever my neighbor walks their pit they avoid my window because my dog goes ballistic and the pit bull looks at her like she's crazy. *I had a 120 pound lab that lunged at a pit that was coming to play.....and my dogs are average* A dog will be a dog and *anything* can set off any dog at any time. As an owner of *average dogs*, I would never let my dogs hurt another dog and if I thought it was a problem I would be the first to fix it, but animal behavior is not the most predictable science by a long shot."_

_*Maybe spend a little time training your "Average" dogs so they don't act so inappropriately aggressive?*_

_*"Anything" can set your dogs off??????*_


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## DJEtzel

llombardo said:


> You have serious issues and really think you know everything.....its quite disturbing...Its like no one can post anything on here without you coming out with a sarcastic remark or cocky comment....I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way or sees this


You're not the only person, don't worry. He still hasn't replied to my information about the American Pit Bull Terrier... beacuse he knows he's wrong, and this is what he does when you PROVE him wrong. To think of bull terriers fighting.... lol.



codmaster said:


> Would you believe the same thing about GSD's - that they are vicious, etc. etc.?
> 
> Because many people do just that.
> 
> And because of one incident with one dog, you ban the entire breed (No wait, actually you are banning multiple dog breeds aren't you?).
> 
> Have you ever met a friendly Staffie or Bull Terrier?


What does a bull terrier have to do with this, yet? They've never been bred to fight and are not commonly dog aggressive. Are you getting them mixed up still with pit bulls?



x0emiroxy0x said:


> In response to that last question codmaster --No. But I have met friendly pits  Rocky's best friend is a female pit. But they aren't allowed to play anymore because she has attacked two dogs at the dog park now. She only dislikes "dominant" dogs. Rocky is not dominant. But now I am worried she might turn on him when she gets mad at the other dogs. I believe Djetzel brought this up??? Redirecting aggression? It seems pits do that a lot.


I would like to clarify that while POORLY BRED dogs DO redirect aggression a lot, they DO NOT typically re-direct onto humans (that was specifically bred out of them- that's why they bite and hold) and MANY nervey aggressive dogs will do this, it just seems like there are more poorly bred pit bulls around with or without dog aggression than other breeds.



Falkosmom said:


> Most of the DA pits I have met stay away from dominant dogs and attack the submissive or friendly ones. Honestly, I have never seen a pit fight a dominant dog. I am sure it happens, but I haven't seen it.
> 
> You should be concerned about your dog continuing to play with that pit. She just might turn on Rocky because, as you stated, she is a DA pit bull. If you decide to let them interact, please for your dog's sake have a plan in place of how you are going to get her off of him and how will you get a large GSD to your car from the park and where the nearest ER vet is located and how to get there.


It has definitely not been my experience working in rescue and at shelters that pits attack the submissive dogs. Either they're not DA and they get into a scuffle with a dominant dog because their personalities don't mesh (dominant/dominant) or they attack whatever they can get to first. 

Likewise, I have to say the dog that Rocky plays with (but cannot anymore) is not dog aggressive if she's not going after every dog she meets to kill it. She may not get along with all dogs, or a certain type, but that is not complete dog aggression. 



x0emiroxy0x said:


> Are people honestly still arguing about this? You will never teach them anything because they just deny everything. When their dog mauls a 2 year old child or they disappear from this board, we will know what happened to them. Otherwise, this topic is a waste of breath. 99% of the stuff posted from the Pitbull Cult Following is complete crap and everyone knows it, so why argue with them? When people are in cults, it is hard to get them out because they are brainwashed. These people are seriously brainwashed and really think there dogs are innocent little golden retriever puppies. You can't fight ignorance


No one that is pro- pit bull is ignorant on the subject, so you can knock that talk off. Nor are any of us in a cult, you just don't like being shown logic or proved wrong.



GrammaD said:


> Randall Lockwood has it right when he describes pit fighting breeds as "liars." They do not give the usual body language warnings, often using play invitation behaviors to draw another dog (and even a human) in in order to initiate an attack. They wag their tails and display other physical signs of happiness with the task while engaged in a mauling.


This definitely isn't true of all pit bulls, and it's unfair to group the breed of them as having this trait. In my years at shelters I've met some pit bulls that truely do not have the proper social skills and are not allowed to play with other dogs because we cannot read them, however there are just as many pit bulls that have great social skills and play better with other dogs than most goldens or labs I've seen. I almost adopted a pit bull from work a couple of months ago because she was aboslutley charming and was FANTASTIC with other dogs with all the proper signs shown. 

Also, MOST aggressive dogs of any breed do tail wagging, licking their lips, etc. while they really want to attack. This is not a pit bull thing, it is a dog thing. A wagging tail is NO sign of happiness.



> But those types of owners are few and far between and I never assume that the pit I see on the street has such an owner. Result is, I will never allow my dogs to interact with them nor will I allow my granddaughter to even play in their vicinity- no matter how well supervised.


No one is asking you to assume anything. That would be stupid of you. I certainly don't assume that every pit bull is going to love me, and I don't assume every golden will play well with my dog. BUT, we are asking for an open mind. Can't you get to know a dog or owner before making judgement? I know I hate when people won't let their small dogs play with my German Shepherd at the dog park (when he is the termperament test dog there half the time) because they assume he will hurt them. Truth is, he will usually only play with dogs much smaller than he is, and that involves him rolling around on his back while they lay on him. 



TaZoR said:


> 25 yrs experience working with all breeds as a vet tech and boarding facility has shown me that these dogs are unpredictable. Just this week a man brought his pit in to be put down with his arm and hand severely injured .. the dog he had for yrs attacked him unprovoked and left him with gaping holes all the way through his hand. This is not an exception.
> 
> 
> 
> Unprovoked... yes... You know, this reminds me of a story I recently heard by a member of our dog park. She has a 2 yr old spayed female Afghan hound. She walks her on a prong and she is extremely leash reactive towards other dogs and will lunge/growl/bark at them... and the elderly owner gives her huge prong corrections when she reacts, causing her to turn around and bite her hands/arms very badly. Drawing blood, needing stitches. Anyway... the owner comes in the other day with a wounded arm and said that her dog attacked her unprovoked the previous day. I got that full story out of her after asking the right questions. Doesn't sound unprovoked to ME, and I could definitely manage/fix such an issue, but she is ready to rehome or have the dog pts for such unprovoked behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have walked many dogs past the cages of pits with no reaction and suddenly i walk by with a certain dog and there is a sudden frenzy. I cannot tell you what sets them off, but when it happens, there would be nothing you could do to stop the attack on your dog without extreme damage.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a ton of this same experience in shelters with pit bulls and other breeds as well. There was a wire haired pointing griffon* (or something similar) there when I quit that would often react to certain dogs with a frenzied attack of the cage, but he played and got along just fine with those same dogs, and others, when outside of his cage. He also never caused harm to a human if they were in his cage with him while he reacted. I've had dozens of these same experiences with pit bulls as well. SO, I have to question your knowledge and experience with such behavior, while you're assuming so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps witnessing an attack first hand, not on a video, or looking at the carcass of a golden retreiver ripped to shreds while the family sobs in uncontrollable grief for the loss compounded with the horrific manner of death would change some minds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope. Won't change my mind. I've seen just as many other breeds
> attacking each other than I have pit bulls, it is a thing that dogs do and shouldn't be held against any breed. I'm sorry that you've seen more pit bulls doing such damage, but I've seen more mutts, herding mixes, lab mixes, etc. in shelters be dog aggressive or randomly attack another dog than I have pit bulls. Out of the shelter I have not seen a real attack, many squabbles, but I have witnessed MANY dog aggressive dogs, and none have been pit bulls.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## GregK

DJEtzel said:


> You're not the only person, don't worry. He still hasn't replied to my information about the American Pit Bull Terrier... beacuse he knows he's wrong, and this is what he does when you PROVE him wrong. To think of bull terriers fighting.... lol.


Probably sittin' in front of the computer right now... all red-faced pounding away at the keyboard. :tongue:


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## Dainerra

Falkosmom said:


> Yes! Yes! Yes! Imagine that look of joy on your dog's face when you come home, that is all too often the look on a pit's face while chewing on some innocent animal. It makes them happy! That is one time that a bit bull will signal what is on its mind. That is a theme repeated over and over in pit bull attacks that I have witnessed.


hmm I've seen lots of other dogs do that too. Like my neighbor's lab that likes to kill cats. Or another neighbor's dog that killed our goat. The dog pack that was in the area when I was growing up that was killing cattle - ripping the calves from their mothers as she was giving birth was their preferred method of killing.
And not a single one of those dogs was a pit bull. They were labs and goldens and GSDs and rotties. Average farm dogs and loving family pets.


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## x0emiroxy0x

I gotta say, I completely agree with Alexandria's POV. She loves pits, but she is not denying that some are really messed up. Instead, she provides legitimate reasons as to why some are DA.....rather than saying "IT IS THE OWNER!!! IT IS THE OWNER!! ALL PITS ARE AWESOME! GOLDEN RETRIEVERS BITE MORE" like others...She admits that in some cases it is the owner, but not always. 
*
LIKE BUTTON??*

First person's opinion I really respect on the pro-pitbull side.

Very good post.

THANK YOU for someone on the pro-pit side for not denying everything the "cautious around pitbull side" has to say.

ALEXANDRIA=SMART. Listen to her you other pit owners that just keep denying and attacking.

**Wipes sweat off forehead and sighs*


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## x0emiroxy0x

Dainerra --- What does dogs attacking farm animals have to do with dogs attacking other dogs and humans??


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## Dainerra

it has to do with her saying that the pits "look happy" when chomping on an innocent animal. 
And, what Alexandria said is what the rest of us have been saying all along.


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## x0emiroxy0x

To be honest, I think saying pits are happily munching another dogs head off is a little bit of personification.

Unless it is your dog, how could you know what a happy expression is?

Right before Rocky gets a bath, he does this weird facial expression where my mom thought he was "happy", but that is really his "Oh crap I don't want to do that" face.


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## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Are people honestly still arguing about this? You will never teach them anything because they just deny everything. When their dog mauls a 2 year old child or they disappear from this board, we will know what happened to them. Otherwise, this topic is a waste of breath. 99% of the stuff posted from the Pitbull Cult Following is complete crap and everyone knows it, so why argue with them? When people are in cults, it is hard to get them out because they are brainwashed. These people are seriously brainwashed and really think there dogs are innocent little golden retriever puppies. You can't fight ignorance


Wow. Just wow. What are Pitbull advocates denying? Who said their dog mauled a 2 year old child?? The experience of workign with pitbulls and pitbull mixes on almost a regular basis, talking with responsible owners of pitbulls and pitbull mixes, learning and reading about pitbulls is complete crap? I work with those kind of dogs that were abused and neglected by their owners, I try my best to educate the ignorant that these dogs are not vicious menacing monsters that they are made out to be, I try my best to show the positive of these dogs because right now they are getting treated like crap. I try my best to fight BSL because the government has no right to tell me what kind of dog I can't and can own. I try my best to help these dogs in any way I can. We are not brainwashed, we are not denying anything, NO ONE said that pitbulls are like Golden Retrievers.

The only ignorance is coming from those who have little experience, and the little experience they have is from the negative. The ignorance is coming from those who don't bother to see BOTH sides of the story.

I found your whole post offensive.


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## Jessiewessie99

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I gotta say, I completely agree with Alexandria's POV. She loves pits, but she is not denying that some are really messed up. Instead, she provides legitimate reasons as to why some are DA.....rather than saying "IT IS THE OWNER!!! IT IS THE OWNER!! ALL PITS ARE AWESOME! GOLDEN RETRIEVERS BITE MORE" like others...She admits that in some cases it is the owner, but not always.
> *
> LIKE BUTTON??*
> 
> First person's opinion I really respect on the pro-pitbull side.
> 
> Very good post.
> 
> THANK YOU for someone on the pro-pit side for not denying everything the "cautious around pitbull side" has to say.
> 
> ALEXANDRIA=SMART. Listen to her you other pit owners that just keep denying and attacking.
> 
> **Wipes sweat off forehead and sighs*



Ummm.....she has been saying what the rest of us have been saying all along. No one denied anything.


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## Falkosmom

Dainerra said:


> hmm I've seen lots of other dogs do that too. Like my neighbor's lab that likes to kill cats. Or another neighbor's dog that killed our goat. The dog pack that was in the area when I was growing up that was killing cattle - ripping the calves from their mothers as she was giving birth was their preferred method of killing.
> And not a single one of those dogs was a pit bull. They were labs and goldens and GSDs and rotties. Average farm dogs and loving family pets.


I have never seen a dog attack and harm another non dog animal so I have nothing to contribute to that comment. I have seen pit bulls attacking other dogs and there is no disputing the joy on their faces.


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## Falkosmom

x0emiroxy0x said:


> To be honest, I think saying pits are happily munching another dogs head off is a little bit of personification.
> 
> Unless it is your dog, how could you know what a happy expression is?
> 
> Right before Rocky gets a bath, he does this weird facial expression where my mom thought he was "happy", but that is really his "Oh crap I don't want to do that" face.


Dogs feel joy, happiness, fear, frustration and a host of other feelings, as do many other animals. Feelings are not exclusive to people. Personification can only occur if they did not have those qualities to begin with.

How do I know a happy expression on a dog if it is not mine? Why I have eyes, and I can see and recognize happiness when I see it. Do you not recognize a friendly overture from a stranger as they pass you by, smile and say good morning? Are you truly not able to recognize when a person or animal is or is not happy just because you don't know them? It is nothing but a by product of having social skills.


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## TaZoR

I read a very sad forum once by the owners of two horses killed by two pits. They ran over and chased down the horses in a corral one at a time. First went for the legs and underbelly , took one down disemboweled and went for jugular, then attacked the other horse in the same manner. The owners couldnt stop them . They said the dogs belonged to a neighbor and never had a problem before. It was a really sad forum.


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> It is really good that a nasty pit bull has not attacked your leash reactive puppy. That would be good for neither dog


 
Yes, that would be terrible. I hope that never happens. He is just a puppy. I know how I felt when my adult dog was the victim of his first unprovoked pit attack, he was only three months old. I am lucky it did no lasting damage to him, although it scarred me!


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## x0emiroxy0x

Ok so I don't really agree with how the guy says people should fall off a cliff, etc. but when he started crying in this video, it made me cry. He loves his pitbull (and it's a beautiful one)


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## GatorDog

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Ok so I don't really agree with how the guy says people should fall off a cliff, etc. but when he started crying in this video, it made me cry. He loves his pitbull (and it's a beautiful one)
> 
> The loyalty of a pitbull - YouTube


I watch that man's videos about tarantulas all the time. This one made me cry too.


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## Falkosmom

I wonder if the video makes family members cry who lost a child to a pit bull mauling or had one seriously maimed and disfigured by a pit?


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## Alexandria610

Falkosmom said:


> I wonder if the video makes family members cry who lost a child to a pit bull mauling or had one seriously maimed and disfigured by a pit?


Hmm, I don't know. Let me ask my friend if any of my videos of my GSD bother her. She no longer has a little brother due to injuries he sustained from being mauled by a GSD.


----------



## Alexandria610

Point being, Falkosmom, that we all may have trauma caused by a specific breed at some point in our lives. That is horrible, and it may ruin the breed for us. It seems that perhaps you had some trauma occur in your family or close relationship with friends/coworkers/loved ones with a pit bull. I am sorry to hear that, if that is the case.

However, just because you feel such a strong prejudice against a particular breed doesn't mean that the breed itself is entirely horrible. My friend doesn't like to talk about GSD's nor does she want to approach mine, but she understands that they are not ALL bad dogs because of this one killing her brother. It was a tragedy, and it ruined the breed for her. She doesn't like looking at them because they remind her of the ONE that harmed her family. But that doesn't mean she thinks they are all evil.

My mother and my aunt were both attacked by GSD's (well, one was a cross) and they don't find anything wrong with my dog. In fact, I sometimes think my mom comes to visit just to see Alex.

What I'm saying is, bad things happen to all sorts of people and animals because of isolated incidents with isolated, individual dogs. That may turn you off from the breed entirely - you have ever right to feel that. But to put the entire breed down and talk about how blood thirsty they are to people that love them and know otherwise (from the ones they have worked with) is shameful.


----------



## TaZoR

I think that statistics outweigh a label of prejudice.. If we go to you tube and search pit bull attacks, it will also outweigh the video posted earlier. So many of these attacks are on owners and children, And neighbors. Sometimes i feel political correctness is acting as blinders. The numbers which are only devised of reported incidents, are indisputable that this is indeed a dangerous breed.


----------



## crackem

I embarassed and saddened that some of you dog owners are so completely clueless about dog behavior in general. Feel free to indulge in the mob fest and feel righteous about it.

It's hardly surprising that a strong driven dog with a bad temperament can cause more damage than a small gutless dog. 

It has nothing to do with breed. There are millions of pitbulls and mixes that are absolutely perfect family animals.

I dont' trust the "stats" at all. I for one know personally an infanct killed by their family dog. A chocolate lab in WI about 15 years ago. They kept the dog believe it or not, and I have not found that incident reported nor registered anywhere. 

The dog most certainly attacked the infant, and the infant was most certainly killed and the family most certainly grieved, and still today, not a mention of it in the media or any "stat" sheet anywhere. 

They loved their dog, and a good number of people around them were willing to make excuses and forgive the dog. I wonder what the response would have been had it been anything looking like a pitbull. 

I lived in a smaller low income city where pitbulls were everywhere. And none of these owners had leashes, or did anything I think a normal dog owner should do. They all sat out on their porches with the 5 pitbulls and puppies running free in the yard all day long. They were everywhere, and we walked and biked by them daily. 

I'm surprised there weren't more problems. If those people owned dogs with temperaments like the so many other people do there surely would have been.

Have had many confrontations with many breeds of dogs, rarely has a pitbull entered the equation.


----------



## Falkosmom

Alexandria610 said:


> Hmm, I don't know. Let me ask my friend if any of my videos of my GSD bother her. She no longer has a little brother due to injuries he sustained from being mauled by a GSD.


I am sorry to hear about your friends brother. What happened to him is a real tragedy.

A lot of breeders and rescues will not place their GSDs, or other breeds, even cats, in a home with small children. They must have a good reason for this practice.

But the cold hard fact remains that pits top the statistics for deaths and serious injuries and leave the other breeds behind in a cloud of dust. 

Pit advocates can think, wish, deny, just like non pit advocates, but facts are facts and you can't wish or deny them away. And all the excuses, denials and wishing it weren't true won't change reality. It is what it is.

But this thread is not about pit bulls being good with children and this video is nothing but another ploy posted to try to prove that the pit bull is such a good doggy that it, in reality, is not, unless owned by a responsible person who is not in denial. This thread is about pit bulls and their inherent DA.

I fail to see the reason for why it was posted on this thread. Perhaps it should be moved to its own thread.


----------



## Alexandria610

As I stated before, the statistics do in fact show pit bulls as being the top incident holder. However, as I also stated, statistics show this due to the vast number of pit bull and pit bull mixes being bred. 

EDIT: Well, the chart didn't work correctly. But you can view it on many different websites if you google it.

Besides showing the percentage of attacks/maimings/kills, etc., do you notice something different about the Pit Bull than the other dogs? The percentage population is close to 13% higher than any other breed. That may not sound like a lot, but in percents it really is. 

Does this excuse people from needing to take caution around Pit Bulls? Absolutely not. However, it does show, statistically, that there are far more Pit Bulls in the pool than other breeds, and this combined with a history of poor breeding/inbreeding of 'fighting' dogs can cause a breed that is perhaps more unstable than other breeds.

Let me repeat that I am cautious around any type of dog, regardless of age, gender, color combination, or breed. I do not think that all individual dogs are saints, nor do I believe that all individual dogs are devils, especially based solely on their breed. I will not dispute that Pit Bulls attacks far outweigh other dog attacks. I have seen this solid evidence and research on many websites as well as in books. However, I will not condemn an entire breed due to these attacks. Instead, I will approach it with more knowledge on what that particular breed can do if not handled correctly or raised correctly (or bred correctly), and what I need to do to help prevent any further attacks. 

Prejudice is prejudice, no matter who or what it is aimed at.


----------



## Alexandria610

Falkosmom said:


> I am sorry to hear about your friends brother. What happened to him is a real tragedy.
> 
> A lot of breeders and rescues will not place their GSDs, or other breeds, even cats, in a home with small children. They must have a good reason for this practice.
> 
> But the cold hard fact remains that pits top the statistics for deaths and serious injuries and leave the other breeds behind in a cloud of dust.
> 
> Pit advocates can think, wish, deny, just like non pit advocates, but facts are facts and you can't wish or deny them away. And all the excuses, denials and wishing it weren't true won't change reality. It is what it is.
> 
> But this thread is not about pit bulls being good with children and this video is nothing but another ploy posted to try to prove *that the pit bull is such a good doggy that it, in reality, is not, unless owned by a responsible person who is not in denial*. This thread is about pit bulls and their inherent DA.
> 
> I fail to see the reason for why it was posted on this thread. Perhaps it should be moved to its own thread.


I think the tidbit that is bolded is what has so many people up in arms. A large percentage of pit lovers (not saying all) understand the harm that these dogs can do. But they get frustrated when the entire breed is condemned based on the ill-effects of an irresponsible person (or the street) raising the dog in question. Pit Bulls have gained popularity, but do you see them on Martha Stewart, or on any hoity toity television shows? No. You see them in rap videos, advertisements for products that are 'tough', and depicted as 'attack' dogs by thugs.

Their physical appearance has slowly corrupted the breed from what it 'was' when it wasn't considered a breed (back in the 1960's and on) to what it has become. Sadly, I don't see the breed's future as being very bright due to humans breeding for all of the wrong traits. Luckily for Doberman Pinschers and German Shepherds, their 'look' fell out of favor when Pit Bulls were recognized by the people who wanted a 'tough as nails' dog, both physically appearing so and physically being so. My mother had Pit Bulls growing up - purebred dogs. They honestly looked more like today's American Bulldog than the stocky, short, low-riding biscuit-headed dogs that are claimed to be Pit Bulls now.

If you can find me a chart or study done on pit bulls that were raised properly, with no DNA history of attacks, violence, etc. and that were given the proper attention, care, and training that is required of the breed AND attacked someone, please send it to me. I would love to add it to my knowledge about dogs and dog breeds. Most people I have seen on here will say the same about German Shepherds. Not necessarily when it comes to bites or attacks, persay, but energy requirements, intelligent stimulation and the like. 

Give a great GSD to someone that has no clue what they are doing and want to chain it up all day or refuse any type of training or socialization, and I am willing to bet that the dog will become fearful, antisocial, and possibly even have a higher chance of acting out (be it violently or just obnoxiously).

I apologize for pulling this thread off track so far.


----------



## gsdraven

Falkosmom said:


> But the cold hard fact remains that pits top the statistics for deaths and serious injuries and leave the other breeds behind in a cloud of dust.


Where are these so-called facts that you keep mentioning?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Regardless if you have a pitbull or a german shepherd...

*Put a pink bandana on your dog*, and I'm NOT kidding everyone will want to pet them.

A pink bandana makes a "vicious" dog look super nice 

This has a 90% success rate!


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Add a cute pink collar and you're set.

Prong collar or choke collar=everyone is scared of your dog.


----------



## Alexandria610

gsdraven said:


> Where are these so-called facts that you keep mentioning?


I have seen them listed on various websites, but all of the statistics vary by a few numbers and percentages. That isn't to say that it is all false data, but I haven't found one from a reputable source yet. Again - not to say that none of the 'facts' are true, just to say that I personally have yet to find what I consider a reputable source putting out these documents.

Falkosmom, I am not being mean here (although it is always hard to tell via written communication) but I would love a link to a source that shows these. Like I stated in one of my posts, I found a few different charts that showed these, but I would love to see where you are getting your information so that I can try to be on the same page.


----------



## Alexandria610

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Add a cute pink collar and you're set.
> 
> Prong collar or choke collar=everyone is scared of your dog.


Ha, I have to somewhat agree with this. Alex always had people cautious to pet her, due to her look as a 'wolf' and those creeper eyes she has, but when I go anywhere with her prong on? I don't even get 'can I pet her?' I get people pulling themselves, their pets, and their children away from her as quickly as possible.


----------



## TaZoR

Statistics i found say they made up 2% of dogs when the numbers were tabulated


----------



## DJEtzel

GregK said:


> Probably sittin' in front of the computer right now... all red-faced pounding away at the keyboard. :tongue:


I don't know if you're talking about me or him, but I don't have a computer or keyboard to pound away at. 



x0emiroxy0x said:


> I gotta say, I completely agree with Alexandria's POV. She loves pits, but she is not denying that some are really messed up. Instead, she provides legitimate reasons as to why some are DA.....rather than saying "IT IS THE OWNER!!! IT IS THE OWNER!! ALL PITS ARE AWESOME! GOLDEN RETRIEVERS BITE MORE" like others...She admits that in some cases it is the owner, but not always.
> 
> *LIKE BUTTON??*
> 
> First person's opinion I really respect on the pro-pitbull side.
> 
> Very good post.
> 
> THANK YOU for someone on the pro-pit side for not denying everything the "cautious around pitbull side" has to say.
> 
> ALEXANDRIA=SMART. Listen to her you other pit owners that just keep denying and attacking.
> 
> **Wipes sweat off forehead and sighs*


None of us have been denying anything. We've all mentioned that some events can be justified and tried explaining WHY things seem the way they are, but they are only "excuses" to you. Will you ever be happy?



Falkosmom said:


> I have never seen a dog attack and harm another non dog animal so I have nothing to contribute to that comment. I have seen pit bulls attacking other dogs and there is no disputing the joy on their faces.


I have seem happy calm pits and I have seen them attack dogs. The look is NOTHING the same, you are adding human emotion to the dogs to justify your feelings. And you are wrong.



Falkosmom said:


> I wonder if the video makes family members cry who lost a child to a pit bull mauling or had one seriously maimed and disfigured by a pit?


You need to stop being so pushy. You're not making any points, because there are thousands of people in the world who I am sure are sad because their kids have been killed by other breeds. Husky has killed and infant in my town recently, my cousin almost died as a child from a chow bite. Pits are by far NOT the only ones killing people.


----------



## Falkosmom

Alexandria610 said:


> Point being, Falkosmom, that we all may have trauma caused by a specific breed at some point in our lives. That is horrible, and it may ruin the breed for us. It seems that perhaps you had some trauma occur in your family or close relationship with friends/coworkers/loved ones with a pit bull. I am sorry to hear that, if that is the case.
> 
> However, just because you feel such a strong prejudice against a particular breed doesn't mean that the breed itself is entirely horrible. My friend doesn't like to talk about GSD's nor does she want to approach mine, but she understands that they are not ALL bad dogs because of this one killing her brother. It was a tragedy, and it ruined the breed for her. She doesn't like looking at them because they remind her of the ONE that harmed her family. But that doesn't mean she thinks they are all evil.
> 
> My mother and my aunt were both attacked by GSD's (well, one was a cross) and they don't find anything wrong with my dog. In fact, I sometimes think my mom comes to visit just to see Alex.
> 
> What I'm saying is, bad things happen to all sorts of people and animals because of isolated incidents with isolated, individual dogs. That may turn you off from the breed entirely - you have ever right to feel that. But to put the entire breed down and talk about how blood thirsty they are to people that love them and know otherwise (from the ones they have worked with) is shameful.


My experience is not a one time attack. It has been a multitude of attacks on my dog, one on myself and one of my boyfriend. There has been many more that I witnessed that were not against me or my family, but innocent strangers walking in the park or near my neighborhood. It is by no means an isolate incident, or two, or three. I wish it were!

People have become so hard and calloused against these attacks by pits. It seems to be now PC to blame the victim of the pit bull, they should not be where they were doing what they were doing...any excuse but blame the pit and its irresponsible owner. The victim saw a pit bull, they should left where they were or stopped doing what they were doing. I don't buy that mentality.

My dog has been attacked by one Vizsla, one Golden, one Lab, I was also attacked by two mongrels. I have no problems with the breeds. They were isolated incidents. The pits are a non stop attack factor that I have been living since their popularity years aog. I lost count long ago of the number of pit attacks on my loved ones, and I am sure there will be many more to follow until the denial ends.


----------



## gsdraven

gsdraven said:


> Where are these so-called facts that you keep mentioning?





Alexandria610 said:


> I have seen them listed on various websites, but all of the statistics vary by a few numbers and percentages. That isn't to say that it is all false data, but *I haven't found one from a reputable source yet.* Again - not to say that none of the 'facts' are true, just to say that I personally have yet to find what I consider a reputable source putting out these documents.


Not quite sure how they are "facts" if they aren't from reputable sources.


----------



## TaZoR

This kind of sums everything up, in my opinion

http://http://www.dog-bite-law-center.com/pit_bull_attacks.html


----------



## Falkosmom

gsdraven said:


> Where are these so-called facts that you keep mentioning?


Feel free to reread the fifty some pages on this thread to find where I and others have posted links.


----------



## Falkosmom

Alexandria610 said:


> I think the tidbit that is bolded is what has so many people up in arms. A large percentage of pit lovers (not saying all) understand the harm that these dogs can do. But they get frustrated when the entire breed is condemned based on the ill-effects of an irresponsible person (or the street) raising the dog in question.
> 
> If you can find me a chart or study done on pit bulls that were raised properly, with no DNA history of attacks, violence, etc. and that were given the proper attention, care, and training that is required of the breed AND attacked someone, please send it to me. I would love to add it to my knowledge about dogs and dog breeds. Most people I have seen on here will say the same about German Shepherds. Not necessarily when it comes to bites or attacks, persay, but energy requirements, intelligent stimulation and the like.


Actually I agree with you. It is not the pit that I have problems with, and I do not support BSL. It is the irresponisble owner that is in denial that I have a problem with. And it seems to be that denial that keeps flaming this thread. 

I think you would be hard pressed to find a pit bull, let alone stats, that do not have the DNA for DA. My girlfriend's father was a third generation pit bull breeder bred to work on farms. The pits that would fight but not kill, were neutered and placed as pets. The pits that refused to fight were culled. The pits that fought and killed were prized breeding quality. I think you will find similar breeding practices for most pits prior to their popularity.


----------



## Falkosmom

Alexandria610 said:


> I have seen them listed on various websites, but all of the statistics vary by a few numbers and percentages. That isn't to say that it is all false data, but I haven't found one from a reputable source yet. Again - not to say that none of the 'facts' are true, just to say that I personally have yet to find what I consider a reputable source putting out these documents.
> 
> Falkosmom, I am not being mean here (although it is always hard to tell via written communication) but I would love a link to a source that shows these. Like I stated in one of my posts, I found a few different charts that showed these, but I would love to see where you are getting your information so that I can try to be on the same page.


No disrepect taken or intended, but there were posts earlier on this thread with links to stats. However, those post were regarding HA, my concerns are DA and domestic animal aggression. I, myself, would like to see stats on DA with all breeds, if anybody knows of any....

You might want to try googling Randall Lockwood as another poster suggested.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

There are independent blogs that attempt to keep track of cases of bully breed attacks on people and other animals.


----------



## Falkosmom

TaZoR said:


> Statistics i found say they made up 2% of dogs when the numbers were tabulated


That is what the stats I have seen always say, pit bulls are only 2% of the total dog population.


----------



## GregK

DJEtzel said:


> I don't know if you're talking about me or him, but I don't have a computer or keyboard to pound away at.


Him.


----------



## gsdraven

I've read all 14 pages and 548 posts of this thread and if these are your "facts" well... 



Falkosmom said:


> http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf
> 
> The breeds most likely to kill


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> I have seem happy calm pits and I have seen them attack dogs. The look is NOTHING the same, you are adding human emotion to the dogs to justify your feelings. And you are wrong.
> 
> 
> You need to stop being so pushy. You're not making any points, because there are thousands of people in the world who I am sure are sad because their kids have been killed by other breeds. Husky has killed and infant in my town recently, my cousin almost died as a child from a chow bite. Pits are by far NOT the only ones killing people.


Nobody said anything about a pit being happy _and calm_ when attacking. Did you not just say that you have seen happy calm pits? Maybe *you* really should stop adding human emotions to dogs to justify your feelings. It is okay if you say it but anybody else saying it is wrong.

And I am not being pushy. You are being rude. You just keep painting yourself into a corner, and not just with me (and not just on this thread), and then you take it out on other posters by becoming rude. And I could not care less about making points with anybody. My self worth does not hinge on what some fruit loop thinks about me.


----------



## Falkosmom

gsdraven said:


> I've read all 14 pages and 548 posts of this thread and if these are your "facts" well...


That may be all that was posted by me, but I know other posted links too. I could post many more but I did not want to bog down my posts by linkng to a multitude of other sites. I just assumed we all have access to computers and those that were interested could go off site and do their own research.


----------



## crackem

> And I am not being pushy.


actually you are, but it doesn't come as a surprise to me and probably the rest that you can't see what is right in front of you.


----------



## Falkosmom

crackem said:


> actually you are, but it doesn't come as a surprise to me and probably the rest that you can't see what is right in front of you.


And you speak for the rest?

Seems to me I have seen post after post of people expressing their concerns about pit bulls on this thread, and they weren't all good ones.


----------



## TaZoR

As i see it...no one has ever said they were the only breed that has attacked anything. However, they are the most likely, as a breed. No one has said that EVERY pit bull will attack . Rotties came in 2nd in deaths and gsd 3rd.. with bull mastiffs and wolf hybrids. But the numbers of deaths are extremely telling. Also, if someone is afraid of my gsd...thats ok with me, i understand. Many pit owners are offended and confrontational. i have visited a pit site much like this one. It is full of ppl with chips on their shoulders, confrontational. Not all! But enough to make me think perhaps they are in denial.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> And you speak for the rest?
> 
> Seems to me I have seen post after post of people expressing their concerns about pit bulls on this thread, and they weren't good ones.


Yeah. He speaks for everyone. There are two to three pit bull bashers on this thread, including you. It is fine to express concerned, but to lie, change the subject, and avoid is doing no one any favors. The "pro-pit" people here are all speaking logically because we know the breed. Others are saying that a pit bull looks happy (and it's a "fact") when they're killing other dogs, and that they can tell the difference between a well-bred dog and a byb dog just by looking at it. OK.


----------



## DJEtzel

TaZoR said:


> As i see it...no one has ever said they were the only breed that has attacked anything. *However, they are the most likely, as a breed.*


Says who? Show me facts. Statistics. REAL ones.



> No one has said that EVERY pit bull will attack . Rotties came in 2nd in deaths and gsd 3rd.. with bull mastiffs and wolf hybrids. But the numbers of deaths are extremely telling.


Where'd you get these stats?



> But enough to make me think perhaps they are in denial.


In denial about what, exactly?


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> Nobody said anything about a pit being happy _and calm_ when attacking. Did you not just say that you have seen happy calm pits? Maybe *you* really should stop adding human emotions to dogs to justify your feelings. It is okay if you say it but anybody else saying it is wrong.
> 
> And I am not being pushy. You are being rude. You just keep painting yourself into a corner, and not just with me (and not just on this thread), and then you take it out on other posters by becoming rude. And I could not care less about making points with anybody. My self worth does not hinge on what some fruit loop thinks about me.


You said, and I quote, that "I have seen pit bulls attacking other dogs and there is no disputing the joy on their faces." <-- Joy and happiness are synonyms. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I have seen calm pit bulls that were obviously happy (I never said or implied that pit bulls were calm when attacking) and the look of obvious contentment (almost a synonym to happiness/joy) and happiness on their face is NOT AT ALL the same as the look on their face when there are hurting or killing another creature. You are so blinded by your rage that you'd like to believe that to make them seem justifiably "bad" to you, but they are not. 

I am not being rude about anything, I am trying to debate my point, using facts and true experiences. I don't belive that you've witness many dogs that were not your own "attacked" so badly by pit bulls. Can you even identify a pit bull? (Oh yes, I've gone there) 

So I'm a fruit loop because I love pit bulls? I could say the same about you for the opposite feeling. However, I'm NOT being rude because I can respect people's feelings, however uneccessary and hurtful they may be. If you couldn't care less about making points with anybody, then why are you trying so hard?


----------



## crackem

Falkosmom said:


> And you speak for the rest?
> 
> Seems to me I have seen post after post of people expressing their concerns about pit bulls on this thread, and they weren't all good ones.


 I have no doubt you go thru life seeing and reading exactly what you want to see and hear.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> Yeah. He speaks for everyone. There are two to three pit bull bashers on this thread, including you. It is fine to express concerned, but to lie, change the subject, and avoid is doing no one any favors. The "pro-pit" people here are all speaking logically because we know the breed. Others are saying that a pit bull looks happy (and it's a "fact") when they're killing other dogs, and that they can tell the difference between a well-bred dog and a byb dog just by looking at it. OK.


Makes me wonder if we are reading the same thread. I see the same two or three pit advocates posting over and over. 

*You have a lot of audacity calling me a liar! You are being hostile and insulting.*

You do not know my life and my experiences or how I feel about anything and I don't care if you do. Just because you don't like all the attacks I have endured or witnessed by pit bulls doesn't make them untrue. And I keep bringing the thread back from HA to DA in pit bulls. Are you sure it is my posts that you are reading? If they are, you have no ability to comprehend what I am saying.

I am avoiding nothing. You have no clue what I am talking about.

Most of the pro pit people on here acknowledge the breeds DA propensities and that care needs to be exercised while owning pits. They are not in denial.

Then there are the others that keep flipflopping between denying and then acknowledging the potential danger of the breed.

I would think that the mods need to take a look at your post, I think that is what they call flaming. But on the other hand, I think you would like that because then this thread would get locked and you would not have to read the truth about your beloved pits. 

You like to tell other people that when they encounter a pit with its owner that they are concerned with, that they should let the pit do whatever it wants and they should leave. Maybe you should follow some of your own advice. If you don't like hearing the truth about pits, maybe you should stop reading this thread.


----------



## GatorDog

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2010 DBRF Report FINAL_1.pdf


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> So I'm a fruit loop because I love pit bulls? I could say the same about you for the opposite feeling. However, I'm NOT being rude because I can respect people's feelings, however uneccessary and hurtful they may be. If you couldn't care less about making points with anybody, then why are you trying so hard?


The fruit loop comment did come across as a personal attack, but it was meant in a general sense. I do apologize as it did seem that way. 

Why I am trying so hard? Because I truly wish that somebody had given me this education on pits before I left myself and my dog wide open to attacks by treating a pit as just another dog. I am hoping to stop other people, even if it is just one, from learning the hard way like I did.

Take it at face value.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> But on the other hand, I think you would like that because then this thread would get locked and you would not have to read the truth about your beloved pits.


What truth is that? 



> You like to tell other people that when they encounter a pit with its owner that they are concerned with, that they should let the pit do whatever it wants and they should leave. Maybe you should follow some of your own advice. If you don't like hearing the truth about pits, maybe you should stop reading this thread.


No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about encountering pits and what you should do to anyone anywhere. I told a woman on another thread who encountered a seemingly aggressive dog at the dog park (that was never identified as a pit or not) that she should keep her dog away from it (avoid it) at the park, if she didn't want to call the authorities. I never said she should leave or let it do whatever it wants. Maybe you should go back and read my posts?


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> The fruit loop comment did come across as a personal attack, but it was meant in a general sense. I do apologize as it did seem that way.
> 
> Why I am trying so hard? Because I truly wish that somebody had given me this education on pits before I left myself and my dog wide open to attacks by treating a pit as just another dog. I am hoping to stop other people, even if it is just one, from learning the hard way like I did.
> 
> Take it at face value.


The issue is that you are not teaching anyone anything. You think that you have some magically truth about pit bulls being aggressive, but you do not. You have some experiences. So do pro-pit bull people. There is a way to share your opinions and views in a logical sense, without claiming falsities and bashing, or attacking other people for their views. The "education" that you claim is so true is OBVIOUSLY not how it is everywhere, or we would all hate pit bulls. I don't hate pit bulls because I do not get attacked numerous times on the street by them. You cannot claim you are educating when all you have to share is your personal experience in your area.


----------



## GatorDog

Falkosmom said:


> The fruit loop comment did come across as a personal attack, but it was meant in a general sense. I do apologize as it did seem that way.
> 
> Why I am trying so hard? Because I truly wish that somebody had given me this education on pits before I left myself and my dog wide open to attacks by treating a pit as just another dog. I am hoping to stop other people, even if it is just one, from learning the hard way like I did.
> 
> Take it at face value.


A bad experience results once again in lumping a bunch of dogs into one category.

My uncle was hospitalized for a GSD attack when he was 12. He did nothing wrong. He has a 6 inch scar running down his face, close to his eye. And yet he still came to my Schutzhund trial last October to support me, because he realizes that ONE BAD EXPERIENCE doesn't mean ALL DOGS ARE THE SAME!

My sister was bitten by a hound mix when she was 7. On the face. And she had to get 12 stitches. We now OWN a BEAGLE because she realized that same thing that my uncle did.

I was bitten by a Basset 4 weeks ago. He latched on to my calf and wouldn't let go. I was alone and tried to pull him off, when he latched onto my hand. It went on for almost 4 whole minutes of him holding me there. Do you really think that I now have a complex that "All Bassets are horrible evil hounds that will attack at will for no reason?" NO. It was one awful incident and it sucked. I moved on.

All dogs should be treated as DOGS. They have lots and lots of sharp teeth and can use them whenever they want and for whatever reason they feel is justified. Key word there is what THEY feel, not what WE feel.

Did anyone read the link I posted? One American Bully breed was correctly identified. The remainder were compromised of various other dog breeds or indeterminate. There was even a PB GSD listed.


----------



## RocketDog

I read the link. I'm sorry I did. Most of the victims were children. It makes me sick and angry, because the adults failed them. Most of the dogs were in circumstances beyond "normal". 

It really is disgusting that innocents are made to pay for the stupidity of people.


----------



## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> The issue is that you are not teaching anyone anything. You think that you have some magically truth about pit bulls being aggressive, but you do not. You have some experiences. So do pro-pit bull people. There is a way to share your opinions and views in a logical sense, without claiming falsities and bashing, or attacking other people for their views. The "education" that you claim is so true is OBVIOUSLY not how it is everywhere, or we would all hate pit bulls. I don't hate pit bulls because I do not get attacked numerous times on the street by them. You cannot claim you are educating when all you have to share is your personal experience in your area.


No, I have no magical truth. The truth is that pits have been bred for generations to be DA and I have nothing to do with that. You can find that truth by googling the history of the breed and reading whatever you want on the breed, you do not have to read what I wrote about them.

My postings have been logical and consistant, once again you confuse me with somebody else. 

Everything I have said on here has been the truth and it is way past time for you to stop your false accusations. Denial is a terrible thing and you seem very good at that. Seems now that you have painted yourself into your corner, all you have left is personal attacks and false accusations.

And I can only feel sorry for somebody that must stick her hand in a pot of boiling water to learn the hard way not to do that rather than to learn from somebody else's experience. Not everybody needs to learn the hard way.


----------



## Falkosmom

GatorDog said:


> A bad experience results once again in lumping a bunch of dogs into one category.
> 
> My uncle was hospitalized for a GSD attack when he was 12. He did nothing wrong. He has a 6 inch scar running down his face, close to his eye. And yet he still came to my Schutzhund trial last October to support me, because he realizes that ONE BAD EXPERIENCE doesn't mean ALL DOGS ARE THE SAME!
> 
> My sister was bitten by a hound mix when she was 7. On the face. And she had to get 12 stitches. We now OWN a BEAGLE because she realized that same thing that my uncle did.
> 
> I was bitten by a Basset 4 weeks ago. He latched on to my calf and wouldn't let go. I was alone and tried to pull him off, when he latched onto my hand. It went on for almost 4 whole minutes of him holding me there. Do you really think that I now have a complex that "All Bassets are horrible evil hounds that will attack at will for no reason?" NO. It was one awful incident and it sucked. I moved on.
> 
> All dogs should be treated as DOGS. They have lots and lots of sharp teeth and can use them whenever they want and for whatever reason they feel is justified. Key word there is what THEY feel, not what WE feel.
> 
> Did anyone read the link I posted? One American Bully breed was correctly identified. The remainder were compromised of various other dog breeds or indeterminate. There was even a PB GSD listed.


The key words are "a bad experience". I have had a bad experiences with this breed and that, I harbor no ill will. I am talking repeated experiences with pits.


----------



## crackem

> Denial is a terrible thing and you seem very good at that.


Oh the Irony in that statement.


----------



## TaZoR

I worked 25 yrs in a large vet hosp/boarding kennel. I have seen sone horrific things. I have tried to break up a pit bull fight between 2 pits that were raised together and the owner insisted they would never ever fight. They returned to only one. I threw buckets of water on them and actually started to hit them with the bucket to get their attention. I risked my life to break it up to no avail. The blood was everywhere, gaping wounds, tattered flesh and the sound was nothing you could ever forget. I warned the oener not to board them together but.." they are sweethearts, would never hurt each other " and they insisted. They obviously had no idea what they were capable of. The surviving dog was in horrible shape and suffered badly while healing. 

Several incidents happened in the waiting room, while owners confidently allow their dogs to walk up to another dog , saying..oh, he loves other dogs. Yes, this happens with other breeds but the damage inflicted in such a short time cannot compare. 

I have been bitten many times, its normally a few puncture wounds, with pit bulls, its different as they bite and rip repeatedly. They are really hard to stop...its like they are completely void of surroundings or pain.

So many victims of attacks have been brought in over the yrs. It tears at your heart to take a lifeless body from a family who were just walking their dog. Some live for a while, and those that survive are lucky. 

I havent had just one bad experience, in treating pit bulls you really never know what will set them off. Some are great and never do anything, while some will lunge at your face. 

Most ...most...breeds will bite and retreat. I have yet to see a pit voluntarily retreat. There jaws as you know are horrifically strong. Ot is in there genes, their breeding, just as herders or retreivers are inclined to perform accordingly displaying their hereditary dispositions even without training. 

Would i risk my dog? No. I would urge you not to either, however, i am just sharing my experience and opinion. I would however venture to say, if you have seen what i have in person, been sprayed by the blood and bagged up the losing dog your opinion would change. They were both great dogs, friendly, playful, raised from pups in a loving home.

And one other thing, retractable leashes let out to fifteen feet is not a smart move in a waiting room. If someone is pulling their dog back, pull yours back too. just because your dog is friendly, doesnt mean their dog is.


----------



## DJEtzel

Falkosmom said:


> No, I have no magical truth. The truth is that pits have been bred for generations to be DA and I have nothing to do with that. You can find that truth by googling the history of the breed and reading whatever you want on the breed, you do not have to read what I wrote about them.


I said that truth back thirty pages or so ago. I was one of the first to mention that and I never denied it. I like to think that I know enough about pit bulls to at least grasp that bit of knowledge.

So what denial am I facing?


----------



## DJEtzel

TaZoR said:


> I have been bitten many times, its normally a few puncture wounds, with pit bulls, its different as they bite and rip repeatedly. They are really hard to stop...its like they are completely void of surroundings or pain.


It is not always different. Any dog can get in that mind set and tear you apart. Pit bulls have a jaw structure that actually makes it more likely for them to bite and hold instead of bite and snap like a gsd or doberman. They are more likely to shake though also, IME. What you are describing is a poorly bred dog, not a pit bull. I have been in the position where it was very hard to break up dog fights (even though I know you're talking people) from neurotic, poorly bred, under exercised dogs, some pits and some not. I've also seen tons of pits involved in scuffles where it did not escalate and they were easily called away. It depends on the dog entirely, not the breed. Likewise, I've been bitten by an american bulldog (that has the same jaw structure as a pit and are also bred to death and fought) and as soon as he made contact to my arm, he realized what he was doing (this was during a dog fight) and let go instantly, backing down from the fight and me. This is the perfect example of a stable dog, which any dog can or can't be, regardless of breed.



> I havent had just one bad experience, in treating pit bulls you really never know what will set them off. Some are great and never do anything, while some will lunge at your face.


This has been my experience with dogs as a whole... have you only had pit bull experience? Do other breeds not act friendly sometimes, lunge other times?



> Most ...most...breeds will bite and retreat. I have yet to see a pit voluntarily retreat. There jaws as you know are horrifically strong. Ot is in there genes, their breeding, just as herders or retreivers are inclined to perform accordingly displaying their hereditary dispositions even without training.


This is again in DA, not human aggression, but we had a pit bull at work who was thee friendliest gal towards people, but had a low threshold for excitement and would redirect onto other dogs in our play yard (which we didn't know until it happened). She laid into a beagle one day, and when we got out there to notice it, she stopped when we asked. Her excitement level went down when the stimuli was removed (another dog at the fence) and she stopped the onslaught. The dog barely lived, but it is still an example that they certainly can and will bite and retreat. 



> Would i risk my dog? No. I would urge you not to either, however, i am just sharing my experience and opinion. I would however venture to say, if you have seen what i have in person, been sprayed by the blood and bagged up the losing dog your opinion would change. They were both great dogs, friendly, playful, raised from pups in a loving home.


My opinion still hasn't changed about any breed that I've seen fight or attack other animals or people. Those breeds vary significantly, as well. A GSD where I previously worked turned on our staff VERY aggressively, and had to be corralled and trapped in an office with catch poles, then sedated and euthanized. They tested him for rabies. I still love GSDs, despite that. A mastiff attacked a boss one day for seemingly no reason and was euthanized. I don't hold anything against them, either. 



> And one other thing, retractable leashes let out to fifteen feet is not a smart move in a waiting room. If someone is pulling their dog back, pull yours back too. just because your dog is friendly, doesnt mean their dog is.


YES.

You seem to be very closed minded and that this can only happen with pit bulls. Do you honestly think that? Have you really never experienced other breeds acting the exact same way in all of your years working with dogs?


----------



## crackem

> Several incidents happened in the waiting room, while owners confidently allow their dogs to walk up to another dog , saying..oh, he loves other dogs. Yes, this happens with other breeds


It's NOT a breed thing. This happens hundreds, if not thousands of times a day, across this country between all sorts of breeds. The only thing that dictates the amount of damage is the size of the dogs and the drive. Having worked with many dogs over the years, I can safely say with great confidence that size, athleticism, drive, tenacity and teeth are not unique to pitbulls, but rather, are qualities held by many, many breeds of dogs and mixes. 

as for your pitbul boarding experience? you don't think that has happend with other dogs? Ever see two female GSD's go at it? YOu don't think they leave horrific wounds? My last dog before I got her had canines thru the actual bone in her front leg, and a chunk from under her eye and gashes all over.



> I have been bitten many times, its normally a few puncture wounds, with pit bulls, its different as they bite and rip repeatedly.


I"m having a really tough time believing this. Considering some want to tell us since they're bred for certain things, they are inevitable, I guess you'll have to take into account they were originally bred as a "catch" dog, who's job it was to bite and hold on for dear life. That's pretty much the opposite of bite and rip repeatedly.



> They are really hard to stop...its like they are completely void of surroundings or pain.


again, you honestly think this is unique to pitbulls? Put two strong dogs together, see how it turns out. Throwing water on them?? yeah, that hardly breaks the attention of my dog thinking about possibly getting up to maybe stalk a cat. I'm sure it would be really useful in stopping a dog during on of the most intense experiences it will ever have in its life, regardless of the breed. and yes that last part was sarcasm.



> I havent had just one bad experience, in treating pit bulls you really never know what will set them off. Some are great and never do anything, while some will lunge at your face.


 again, unique to pitbulls? Please, there are thousands of bites every year in this country from all sorts of dogs NOT named a pitbull. There was a rather famous video from a few years ago with a reporter interviewing a cop with his GSD. Guess who attached himself to the reporter's face? it wasn't a pitbull.



> There jaws as you know are horrifically strong.


Their jaws are equally as strong as any dog of comparable size. Hate to tell you again, but the jaws on your dog if you have a GSD are almost surely stronger than a pitbulls. but most dogs are "horrifically" strong. I mean they can bite right thru bones, crush them and eat them with surprising ease. 

but anyway, jaw strength is a function of muscle attachement and skull length and size, not a function of a "breed". If your dog is larger it has a stronger jaw, if it's smaller it's not as strong. Simple biomechanics and nothing more.



> Ot is in there genes, their breeding, just as herders or retreivers are inclined to perform accordingly displaying their hereditary dispositions even without training.


and there are many, many, many, many, Herders that don't have an ounce of courage or drive to even think about herding a couple lambs, let alone a flock of sheep. and The numbers of retrievers that have a speck of working ability are severely outnumbered the the number of retrievers that can't do much of anything but eat, sleep and bark. Just as herders with working ability are vastly outnumbered by those types of the breed that carry none of those hereditary dispositions, i'm sure it's the same in pitbulls.

Considering that is a function of genetics and breeding and how genes line up in ALL dogs. Or is it just different in pitbulls, because that's what your prejudice tells you?


----------



## DJEtzel

crackem, :thumbup:


----------



## GrammaD

DJEtzel said:


> Yeah. He speaks for everyone. There are two to three pit bull bashers on this thread, including you. It is fine to express concerned, but to lie, change the subject, and avoid is doing no one any favors. The "pro-pit" people here are all speaking logically because we know the breed. Others are saying that a pit bull looks happy (and it's a "fact") when they're killing other dogs, and that they can tell the difference between a well-bred dog and a byb dog just by looking at it. OK.


Since this is directed at my post, I will answer even though the topic is about personal preferences, not defending the breed/type and has floated way way off the original topic.

If, after 20+ years of involvement in breeding and showing dogs, you cannot discern a difference between a BYB and a show bred dog when you see one, than you should just get the heck out of dogs because you have no eye for them. 

I am not talking about looking at pretty pictures on the internet, rather seeing the dogs up close and in person.

Since I have been involved in dogs longer than you have even been alive, I'll now excuse your snide comment.


----------



## TaZoR

Uh..yeah. i was about 15 ft from the cage when the fight broke out..sorry i had a bucket of water and reacted.. i guess i should have a tranquilizer gun and cattle prod at all timez...i was doing my best. It is funny to me that u assume they were poorly bred. Thats a stereotype. They werent. 

I never said to please refrain from retractable leashes because of pit bulls. It was very much a general statement. I did say they inflict the most damage. This has been my experience. If you dont like it im sorry, but they just dont let go.

I believe their jaws have the most pressure lb for lb of any dog. I could be wrong, i havent looked it up.

If your dog was going to be attacked....and you could choose,...would you choose a pit bull or a golden retreiver?

That is my point, yes, it can happen with any breed, but you have a choice who your dog is with. I choose not to purposely risk my dog in the jaws of a pit bull.


----------



## DJEtzel

TaZoR said:


> Uh..yeah. i was about 15 ft from the cage when the fight broke out..sorry i had a bucket of water and reacted.. i guess i should have a tranquilizer gun and cattle prod at all timez...i was doing my best. It is funny to me that u assume they were poorly bred. Thats a stereotype.


No, it isn't a stereotype, it is just not always the case.



> I believe their jaws have the most pressure lb for lb of any dog. I could be wrong, i havent looked it up.


Everything I remember reading says that the GSD has stronger bite pressure.



> If your dog was going to be attacked....and you could choose,...would you choose a pit bull or a golden retreiver?


That would completelt depend on how each fought. I've witnessed pits fight dogs that were easy to seperate, and labs fight dogs that had no chance of getting out alive. Once again, COMPLETELY depends on the dog.


----------



## codmaster

TaZoR said:


> As i see it...no one has ever said they were the only breed that has attacked anything. However, they are the most likely, as a breed. No one has said that EVERY pit bull will attack . Rotties came in 2nd in deaths and gsd 3rd.. with bull mastiffs and wolf hybrids. But the numbers of deaths are extremely telling. Also, if someone is afraid of my gsd...thats ok with me, i understand. Many pit owners are offended and confrontational. i have visited a pit site much like this one. It is full of ppl with chips on their shoulders, confrontational. Not all! But enough to make me think perhaps they are in denial.


Hey tazor,

Ae you calling "pit bull" a single breed? If so, which one? if not just a single breed, which breeds are you including in the term and all your talk about them?

If you can answer this simple question, it might help clear up many of the accusations and statistics that you are stating.

So which breed(s) are included in all your posts about "Pit Bull"?

Oh yea, do your numbers etc. also include pit mixes (whatever this means)???


----------



## codmaster

TaZoR said:


> Uh..yeah. i was about 15 ft from the cage when the fight broke out..sorry i had a bucket of water and reacted.. i guess i should have a tranquilizer gun and cattle prod at all timez...i was doing my best. It is funny to me that u assume they were poorly bred. Thats a stereotype. They werent.
> 
> I never said to please refrain from retractable leashes because of pit bulls. It was very much a general statement. I did say they inflict the most damage. This has been my experience. If you dont like it im sorry, but they just dont let go.
> 
> *I believe their jaws have the most pressure lb for lb of any dog. I could be wrong, i havent looked it up.*
> If your dog was going to be attacked....*and you could choose,...would you choose a pit bull or a golden retreiver?*
> That is my point, yes, it can happen with any breed, but you have a choice who your dog is with. I choose not to purposely risk my dog in the jaws of a pit bull.


Why am I not surprised that you "haven't looked it up"??? HHHMMMM! Maybe because it isn't true and it might hurt your assumptions and thus your posts?

Would you choose a pit bull or a St. Bernard to attack your dog?


----------



## codmaster

GrammaD said:


> Since this is directed at my post, I will answer even though the topic is about personal preferences, not defending the breed/type and has floated way way off the original topic.
> 
> If, after 20+ years of involvement in breeding and showing dogs, you cannot discern *a difference between a BYB and a show bred dog* when you see one, than you should just get the heck out of dogs because you have no eye for them.
> 
> I am not talking about looking at pretty pictures on the internet, rather seeing the dogs up close and in person.
> 
> *Since I have been involved in dogs longer than you have even been alive, I'll now excuse your snide comment*.


Are you suggesting that ALL BYB dogs are ugly? BTW, how would you define a BYB? (a small breeder, or maybe one who doesn't select the stud very well, or maybe someone who breeds dogs who have no titles? 

Since you do seem to know a great deal about show dog breeding, I am sure that you have a great definition of a BYB and one that we can all learn from.

So what is YOUR definiton of a BYB? 

By the way also, what do you mean by "Show" - just a conformation show or do you include any performance trials as "Show" - I.E. ScH, PSA, Obedience, Rally, Herding, Agility, Field, etc.? 

Or are you suggesting that any body doing these kinds of Showing don't count as "Show" dogs and thus are relegated to BYB?

Thanks!


----------



## codmaster

Forgot this one (probably to my own advancing age) - try to remember this: 

*"Age and experience do not insure either knowledge or accuracy!"*


----------



## JakodaCD OA

This Thread is 58 pages long, All I see is alot of back and forth "I'm right, no I'm right" 
I'm FOR pits, I"m anti pit." Most of you sound like a pack of 'bad' dogs 

This has strayed waaaaaay off topic and honestly is anyone "getting" anything out of this thread other than the BS back and forth??? 

With that said, QUIT the name calling and try to keep this topic 'civil' or I'll close it

Thanks


----------



## TaZoR

My apologies, i can certainly agree to disagree. No, i wouldnt feel comfortable allowing my dog around a pit bull..


----------



## Alexandria610

chelle said:


> Speaking only for myself, I'll take that St Bernard. But what's this crap about "look it up?" What difference would that make? They all come from basically the same thing. All bred for / towards the same thing. Who gives a crap what they're "called" ?
> 
> Honestly, you people are just tickin' me off! Have your frikkin pits! Let them live in YOUR house with YOUR kids and other dogs, la-di-da, great! Follow the dang law and don't bring them in the dog park. Don't let them offleash. Don't let them get a chance to kill anything. And then stand up HOORAH, I OWN A PITBULL, and the rest of you are just "misinformed." Misinformed, ****. Cautious, smart? YEAH, that's what the rest of us are.
> 
> Before now, I was trying -- *really honestly, trying* -- to see you pro-pitty peoples' points of view. But after reading your sarcasm, your nastiness, your attacking of anyone who is *not* in your pro-pit camp, I've lost *ALL* respect for *ALL* of you pro-pit people. A month or two ago, on a different thread, I was trying to convince myself that I did not "dislike" pits - *because I love dogs in general*. But you culters scare me._ "It's a dog like any dog."_ -- _"It's all about the training."_ Bull. Your beloved pit has a genetic predisposition to FIGHT, to grip, to shake, to KILL. They were bred to NOT show signs prior to attack. Nanny-dog, ok RIGHT. Because some dumb woman said they are? Show me what you have to back THAT up!!!!!! I don't trust your beloved pits, and that's my frikkin right and my responsible choice for the sake of *my* dogs. I'm not going to let my dogs be yet another pit statistic.
> 
> You pittie lovers want to change the views of others about your beloved breed? Change your way of presenting your "information." I've also always thought I am very much anti-BSL, but you folks are changing my mind on that, too. YOU are supposed to be the utmost, the BEST representatives of the breed, yet you only want to fight, attack and deny! Scary! Considering the truth IS that your breed is owned, in HUGE part, by thugs and criminals who do NOT care as YOU do -- what are the rest of us supposed to think?
> 
> That was a rant, and it wasn't welcome, and it was totally worth being banned for. I'm sorry, I had to do it.



Wow.


----------



## codmaster

chelle said:


> .....................
> 
> Nothing to do with breed? Really? *You're dealing with a breed that has been very specifically, purposefully bred TO FIGHT and to fight WELL* and you're going to say it has *nothing* to do with it? Put down the beer can. Clearly, you're a full member of the pit bull cult crew. Sorry. I'm embarrassed and saddened for *you*.
> 
> * How many current breeders of whatever breeds that you refer to as pit bulls are selecting and breeding for fighting ability? have you ever been to a conformation show and talked to some of the breeders of pit breeds - ask them if they select for fighting? Probably none is my guess! Ignorance and a total disregard for the facts is very evident.*
> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> .............
> 
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I'll take that St Bernard. But what's this crap about "look it up?" What difference would that make? They all come from basically the same thing. *All bred for / towards the same thing*. Who gives a crap what they're "called" ? *Heh! Heh! Heh! See above for "Facts". Ignore the facts if they are inconvienient! "ALL" pit bulls are "bred for the same thing"?????? That is a very interesting statement, to say the least. About like and makes as much sense as "All GSD's are bred for herding!!!!!!"*
> 
> *BTW, you had better hope that an adult St. Barnard NEVER attacks your GSD, else Goodbye!*
> 
> Honestly, you people are just tickin' me off! Have your frikkin pits! Let them live in YOUR house with YOUR kids and other dogs, la-di-da, great! Follow the dang law and don't bring them in the dog park. Don't let them offleash. Don't let them get a chance to kill anything. And then stand up HOORAH, I OWN A PITBULL, and the rest of you are just "misinformed." Misinformed, ****. Cautious, smart? YEAH, that's what the rest of us are.
> 
> Before now, I was trying -- *really honestly, trying* -- to see you pro-pitty peoples' points of view. But after reading your sarcasm, your nastiness, your attacking of anyone who is *not* in your pro-pit camp, I've lost *ALL* respect for *ALL* of you pro-pit people. A month or two ago, on a different thread, I was trying to convince myself that I did not "dislike" pits - *because I love dogs in general*. But you culters scare me._ "It's a dog like any dog."_ -- _"It's all about the training."_ Bull. Your beloved pit has a genetic predisposition to FIGHT, to grip, to shake, to KILL. They were bred to NOT show signs prior to attack. Nanny-dog, ok RIGHT. Because some dumb woman said they are? Show me what you have to back THAT up!!!!!! I don't trust your beloved pits, and that's my frikkin right and my responsible choice for the sake of *my* dogs. I'm not going to let my dogs be yet another pit statistic.
> 
> You pittie lovers want to change the views of others about your beloved breed? Change your way of presenting your "information." I've also always thought I am very much anti-BSL, but you folks are changing my mind on that, too. YOU are supposed to be the utmost, the BEST representatives of the breed, yet you only want to fight, attack and deny! Scary! Considering the truth IS that *your breed is owned, in HUGE part, by thugs and criminals* who do NOT care as YOU do -- what are the rest of us supposed to think?
> 
> That was a rant, and *it wasn't welcome*, and it was totally worth being banned for. I'm sorry, I had to do it.


*One thing, is it Pit bulls that you don't like and are so afraid of, or is it pit bull owners and/or fans of these good natured funny as heck dogs 9most of them!)?*

*just curious.*


----------



## Jessiewessie99

chelle said:


> I know a friendly Staffie. A nine month old female. Bailey is in absolute love with her. Will I let him play with her when she's older? Probably not. Oops, I'm banning the breed... oops I'm banning multiple breeds.... oops!
> 
> 
> 
> *And I find yours incredibly offensive. I like you, and we've had some issues on this same thing before, but this bs "ignorance" you keep quoting has sure gotten old. *
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing to do with breed? Really? You're dealing with a breed that has been very specifically, purposefully bred TO FIGHT and to fight WELL and you're going to say it has *nothing* to do with it? Put down the beer can. Clearly, you're a full member of the pit bull cult crew. Sorry. I'm embarrassed and saddened for *you*.
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Spare me. Ridiculous. Am I one of the three?
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking only for myself, I'll take that St Bernard. But what's this crap about "look it up?" What difference would that make? They all come from basically the same thing. All bred for / towards the same thing. Who gives a crap what they're "called" ?
> 
> Honestly, you people are just tickin' me off! Have your frikkin pits! Let them live in YOUR house with YOUR kids and other dogs, la-di-da, great! Follow the dang law and don't bring them in the dog park. Don't let them offleash. Don't let them get a chance to kill anything. And then stand up HOORAH, I OWN A PITBULL, and the rest of you are just "misinformed." Misinformed, ****. Cautious, smart? YEAH, that's what the rest of us are.
> 
> Before now, I was trying -- *really honestly, trying* -- to see you pro-pitty peoples' points of view. But after reading your sarcasm, your nastiness, your attacking of anyone who is *not* in your pro-pit camp, I've lost *ALL* respect for *ALL* of you pro-pit people. A month or two ago, on a different thread, I was trying to convince myself that I did not "dislike" pits - *because I love dogs in general*. But you culters scare me._ "It's a dog like any dog."_ -- _"It's all about the training."_ Bull. Your beloved pit has a genetic predisposition to FIGHT, to grip, to shake, to KILL. They were bred to NOT show signs prior to attack. Nanny-dog, ok RIGHT. Because some dumb woman said they are? Show me what you have to back THAT up!!!!!! I don't trust your beloved pits, and that's my frikkin right and my responsible choice for the sake of *my* dogs. I'm not going to let my dogs be yet another pit statistic.
> 
> You pittie lovers want to change the views of others about your beloved breed? Change your way of presenting your "information." I've also always thought I am very much anti-BSL, but you folks are changing my mind on that, too. YOU are supposed to be the utmost, the BEST representatives of the breed, yet you only want to fight, attack and deny! Scary! Considering the truth IS that your breed is owned, in HUGE part, by thugs and criminals who do NOT care as YOU do -- what are the rest of us supposed to think?
> 
> That was a rant, and it wasn't welcome, and it was totally worth being banned for. I'm sorry, I had to do it.


I don't think mine is as rude and nasty as yours.



Alexandria610 said:


> Wow.


Yes. I agree.


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## Falkosmom

DJEtzel said:


> What you are describing is a poorly bred dog, not a pit bull.


Please enlighten me, how does one determine what a poorly bred dog is? 



DJEtzel said:


> This has been my experience with dogs as a whole... have you only had pit bull experience?


TaZor already answered that in her a prior post. Let me repost it for you.



TaZoR said:


> I worked 25 yrs in a large vet hosp/boarding kennel.





DJEtzel said:


> This is again in DA, not human aggression, but we had a pit bull at work who was thee friendliest gal towards people, but had a low threshold for excitement and would redirect onto other dogs in our play yard (which we didn't know until it happened). She laid into a beagle one day, and when we got out there to notice it, she stopped when we asked. Her excitement level went down when the stimuli was removed (another dog at the fence) and she stopped the onslaught. The dog barely lived, but it is still an example that they certainly can and will bite and retreat.


 
But you did know! You already posted this!


DJEtzel said:


> I have said many times that pit bulls are bred to be dog aggressive, and that it is in their genes. I know exactly how much damage the typically pit bull is capable of doing


If you already knew, why did you leave that poor little Beagle with that pit bull? _How could you?_ How cruel and irresponsible! And then you encourage other people to let their dogs play with pits, how are average people with far less dog experience supposed to know if you didn't? But then again, you did!



DJEtzel said:


> You seem to be very closed minded and that this can only happen with pit bulls.


Let's see, TaZor has a fair amount of experience with pit bulls, and their bloody aftermath, and does not think the breed is safe. So you then conclude that she is close minded. I fail to see your logic.


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## Falkosmom

crackem said:


> Or is it just different in pitbulls, because that's what your prejudice tells you?


prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

None of this applies to TaZor. She has ample first hand experience with dogs and pits and has not formed her opinions without knowledge, thought or reason. She came on his site to share what her years of experience has taught her so other people can make informed decisions regarding letting their dogs play with pit bulls. Why do you label her prejudice? I fail to see your logic as well.


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## Falkosmom

JakodaCD OA said:


> This Thread is 58 pages long, All I see is alot of back and forth "I'm right, no I'm right"
> I'm FOR pits, I"m anti pit." Most of you sound like a pack of 'bad' dogs
> 
> This has strayed waaaaaay off topic and honestly is anyone "getting" anything out of this thread other than the BS back and forth???
> 
> With that said, QUIT the name calling and try to keep this topic 'civil' or I'll close it
> 
> Thanks


Sorry moderator, I will try to stay on track with the topic orginally posted.


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> Would you choose a pit bull or a St. Bernard to attack your dog?


 
A St Bernard attacked my 65# childhood GSD/Collie mix. There is not doubt that I would rather have my dog attacked by a Saint rather than a pit. And I would not hesitate to let my dogs play with a Saint if we would encounter one in an appropriate setting, i.e. dog park, etc.


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## Falkosmom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I don't think mine is as rude and nasty as yours.


:thumbsdown:


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## Alexandria610

Before I say something regretful, I just have to call to attention how much it pains me that I have now been labeled or will be seen as some by a crazy, beer-guzzling cult follower because I have respect and a liking for a particular dog breed. Any credibility I have in my dog experinces in life and dog ownership will now likely be dismissed by a few people, if not more, because of my love for a breed. I find it sad that due to this love I have been dismissed in someone's mind as forever being a cult follower. To be so jaded about such a large portion of people based on their love for something and to lump th em all into that same demonstrative category is sad. I am so sorry that you view so many of us as nothing more than blind followers, and that your hate or fear of one thing can blind you the most


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## Jessiewessie99

Alexandria610 said:


> Before I say something regretful, I just have to call to attention how much it pains me that I have now been labeled or will be seen as some by a crazy, beer-guzzling cult follower because I have respect and a liking for a particular dog breed. Any credibility I have in my dog experinces in life and dog ownership will now likely be dismissed by a few people, if not more, because of my love for a breed. I find it sad that due to this love I have been dismissed in someone's mind as forever being a cult follower. To be so jaded about such a large portion of people based on their love for something and to lump th em all into that same demonstrative category is sad. I am so sorry that you view so many of us as nothing more than blind followers, and that your hate or fear of one thing can blind you the most


Where is the LIKE button?


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## Alexandria610

Alexandria610 said:


> Before I say something regretful, I just have to call to attention how much it pains me that I have now been labeled or will be seen as some by a crazy, beer-guzzling cult follower because I have respect and a liking for a particular dog breed. Any credibility I have in my dog experinces in life and dog ownership will now likely be dismissed by a few people, if not more, because of my love for a breed. I find it sad that due to this love I have been dismissed in someone's mind as forever being a cult follower. To be so jaded about such a large portion of people based on their love for something and to lump th em all into that same demonstrative category is sad. I am so sorry that you view so many of us as nothing more than blind followers, and that your hate or fear of one thing can blind you the most




Please realize that I never meant for the above to be taken as a personal attack or as something negative towards anyone. I simply was trying to express my feelings in regards to various posts that have been made in regards to "pro-pits" and "pit lovers" as the words expressed hurt me deeply.


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## Falkosmom

Alexandria610 said:


> Before I say something regretful, I just have to call to attention how much it pains me that I have now been labeled or will be seen as some by a crazy, beer-guzzling cult follower because I have respect and a liking for a particular dog breed. Any credibility I have in my dog experinces in life and dog ownership will now likely be dismissed by a few people, if not more, because of my love for a breed. I find it sad that due to this love I have been dismissed in someone's mind as forever being a cult follower. To be so jaded about such a large portion of people based on their love for something and to lump th em all into that same demonstrative category is sad. I am so sorry that you view so many of us as nothing more than blind followers, and that your hate or fear of one thing can blind you the most


I am so sorry that you have come to feel that way due to this thread. Don't ever think that those who speak against pits are jaded against people that love pit bulls. They are jaded against irresponsible people that are in denial who own pit bulls and do not manage and control them properly and place other people in possible danger. People are angry and fearful because they don't want any harm to come to themselves or their loved ones or strangers. Irresponsible pit owners deprive other people of a sense of safety and feeling safe is a basic human need.


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## Dainerra

but why is it just irresponsible "pit owners"???

What about the GSD owner who lets his dog roam free and kill other people's pets or attack children? Or the guy who thinks it's hilarious that his lab will growl and attack anyone who comes near his house? Or the woman on another forum who brags that her children are "safe" in her ACDs presence because he attack anyone who raises their voices to the children, including her and her husband? And on and on and on. 

Incidents like all of the ones described her by the "anti-pit" people are all things that happen with every breed every day. Dogs that have lived together their whole lives and suddenly attack each other? Check out the aggression forums, there are several members here who have had that problem. Attack smaller dogs? There are a LOT of GSDs with dog aggression, especially small dog aggression and same sex aggression.

What the rest of us are saying is "know the OWNER of the dog" it doesn't matter what breed of dog - an irresponsible owner = I don't let my dogs associate. responsible owner - I will talk to them about their dog and then make a decision.


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## JakodaCD OA

I warned people to knock it off with the nastiness / name calling/ and the "MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY" attitudes. It seems it was overlooked.

With that, I'm closing this thread, it is serving no purpose and being highly repetative. 

I "may" consider reopening it when people cool down or there isn't a full moon


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