# Critique Havoc please!!!



## KristiM

Havoc is just under 18 months and is starting to look more like a dog and less like a chupacabra lol. I am just curious to see if others are seeing the same things I do regarding his structure. 

I think he could use a more masculine head (I haven't lost hope that it will fill out more#, he has a bit of a weak lower jaw #you can't tell unless his mouth is closed.) I think he could use a bit more neck, I realize the ecollar he is wearing makes this look worse. I find his front to be a bit straight overall. He has a nice topline, very short and steep croup. He has more rear angulation than I personally like. I think he could use more leg, he has nice tight feet and good pasterns. His pasterns don't look as good in these pics as he is kind of slouching since his ball is in front of him. He seems to look better and better as he matures, I know this is a bad age for a critique but it will be interesting to see how he develops. He seems to be a very slow to mature (physically) dog.

I did one where he is stacked like a "normal" dog, a head shot and the last one is him standing naturally on a hike. I know the stacks kind of suck but this is our first time


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## x11

i need to google "chupacabra"??? looks good to me, scenery is nice too. sorry i don't know zip about croup length or secondary sex characteristics?? nice boy.


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## PatchonGSD

Love his color. In my humble opinion, he looks nice and "solid" and masculine to me. He also looks like he just has more growing to do.


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## KristiM

x11 said:


> i need to google "chupacabra"??? looks good to me, scenery is nice too. sorry i don't know zip about croup length or secondary sex characteristics?? nice boy.


Chupacabra is a mythical blood sucking dog like creature, it's one of his nicknames because he is evil


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## KristiM

PatchonGSD said:


> Love his color. In my humble opinion, he looks nice and "solid" and masculine to me. He also looks like he just has more growing to do.


Thanks PatchonGSD! He does have very nice coloring. I honestly wish he was a little less "solid" since I do agility, he is a nice medium size though. Yes he does still have a lot of growing to do, I am seriously worried that he is going to be rather tankish when he is done. (Not very conducive to fast agility times!)


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## lhczth

Young male with flat withers, but otherwise good topline. Good croup that should be longer. Good angulation in front though his upper arm should be longer. Good to very good angulation in the rear. I would like to see firmer pasterns and tighter feet. Good secondary sex characteristics and good color.


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## x11

KristiM said:


> Chupacabra is a mythical blood sucking dog like creature, it's one of his nicknames because he is evil


 


ok then:laugh::laugh:


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## qbchottu

Nice young dark sable male. Good pigment, beautiful dark mask, good color. Looks to be nice brown eyes, dark nails. Flat withers, a little straight in the shoulder, short arm, reach will probably be restricted in the front, but I bet he has good rear drive - nice development back there. Feet are a bit weak and bridged in the front - if you stack him again, watch that and turn his feet in to minimize that east/west. Love the depth of the chest. Ok front angulation, good rear angulation. Topline a little flat because of withers - next time, stretch him out a little more in the rear so you can give you a little more angles. Stack him uphill if at all possible. Croup is a little steep, but good length. He is nice and dry. I love his weight - lean and ribby with a defined tuck - gorgeous. Coat is tight, but that's ok because you have him at a great weight. He needs more muscle though. He lacks a lot of meat and substance, specially in the neck, and chest. Still intact, I hope. Start hiking him uphill. Get him really pulling and working those chest muscles. Road work with the bike. Swimming is excellent. What kind of diet is he on? I think you are right, he will be slow to develop, but he could use more muscle imo. I think he has a nice, lovely head and will continue to masculinize as he matures. His expression looks tired in the stack photos. If you stack him again for a critique, make sure someone else takes the picture while you catch his attention while he is stacked. You want his expression bright, curious, alert and confident. You want his personality to shine through with head up, ears perked, tongue hanging and poised for action. You can definitely tell he is male and I like him. Cool dog, congrats


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## wildo

KristiM said:


> He has more rear angulation than I personally like. I think he could use more leg...





qbchottu said:


> ...good rear angulation... next time, stretch him out a little more in the rear so you can give you a little more angles.


It's funny KristiM that you think he has too much angulation, while qbchottu thinks he could show more angulation. I suppose it's all subjective, but I have to agree with qbchottu. I don't find his rear to look overly angulated, and in fact I thought he could be a little more angled back there- specifically, just a bit longer in lower leg. 

But I had a question about that:
Can a dog with a short croup be overly angled? It was my understanding that a short croup should REDUCE angulation in the rear. Is that not true?


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## qbchottu

I would not stretch him out to give him more rear angulation. I would strength him out more and stack him uphill to compensate for his flat withers and topline. He will need help to appear to have a better topline - the stretching in the rear and uphill stack are good tricks to minimize his negatives. I am a showline person. I love a nice topline - a stack looks distracting if it is not showing a few angles here and there. Same with expression - I need to see the dog shine through. Look at that 4th headshot - that's the dog I want to see in the stack.

*And I meant "so you can give HIM more angles" ...must be tired tonight :crazy:


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## wildo

What is an uphill stack?


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## qbchottu

Find a hill and stack his front on it (almost like he is climbing uphill at a slight slant) so he appears to have a little more higher withers than he actually does. That helps pump up his topline and give him more angles here and there. Not so exaggerated that it looks comical, but definitely not on that flat ground he is stacked on now. That does nothing for his topline. A little more withers and stretching in the back would also help you transition a bit easier into the croup.


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## KristiM

qbchottu said:


> Nice young dark sable male. Good pigment, beautiful dark mask, good color. Looks to be nice brown eyes, dark nails. Flat withers, a little straight in the shoulder, short arm, reach will probably be restricted in the front, but I bet he has good rear drive - nice development back there. Feet are a bit weak and bridged in the front - if you stack him again, watch that and turn his feet in to minimize that east/west. Love the depth of the chest. Ok front angulation, good rear angulation. Topline a little flat because of withers - next time, stretch him out a little more in the rear so you can give you a little more angles. Stack him uphill if at all possible. Croup is a little steep, but good length. He is nice and dry. I love his weight - lean and ribby with a defined tuck - gorgeous. Coat is tight, but that's ok because you have him at a great weight. He needs more muscle though. He lacks a lot of meat and substance, specially in the neck, and chest. Still intact, I hope. Start hiking him uphill. Get him really pulling and working those chest muscles. Road work with the bike. Swimming is excellent. What kind of diet is he on? I think you are right, he will be slow to develop, but he could use more muscle imo. I think he has a nice, lovely head and will continue to masculinize as he matures. His expression looks tired in the stack photos. If you stack him again for a critique, make sure someone else takes the picture while you catch his attention while he is stacked. You want his expression bright, curious, alert and confident. You want his personality to shine through with head up, ears perked, tongue hanging and poised for action. You can definitely tell he is male and I like him. Cool dog, congrats


Thanks fo the in depth critique! What exaclty are flat withers? 

It's funny you say he has good length of croup, I HATE his croup! He does actually look to have a better rear end when he is stacked in these pictures than I think he actually does in real life. 

I do find him fairly straight in the front and he doesn't have the best of reach. He does drive nicely in the rear but I find that he could have better extension in the rear.

The pics also make his feet and pasterns look crappy when in reality he actually does have nice tight feet and good pasterns. I would also consider him to be quite "wet" but you would really have to see him moving to get that picture. 

I will try to get some better stacked pictures of him and I do appreciate the stacking tips! It's tough to do by yourself. He was ready to pounce on the ball in front of him so that definitely distorted things

As far as muscle tone goes he is about as active as you get! He is on a raw diet. I do agiltiy normally twice a week, he gets a 60-70 minute off leash walk every day normally with some uphill ball throwing throughout. I off leash hike with him almost every weekend (4-8 hours) and I scramble wtih him as well (climb/hike to peaks.) I really should be doing more biking with him but winter is already here and they salt all the bike paths near me I think the muscle tone will just take some time. 

I attached a pic of him on his first peak at 12 months (you can see how much his head has changed since then!


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## qbchottu

I will use my own dog as an example. Whiskey has flat withers and short arm. He has quite nice rear angulation, but the croup is short and too steep. He is stacked uphill if you notice the angle of the items in the back, the rear is stretched out quite a bit so as to minimize his bad croup and to give him more of a topline than he has in reality. The way he is stacked, it will detract from his flat withers and short, restricted arm. The trained eye can see it, but he is presented to the best that he can be. He is almost sitting on his back hock because he has to be in order to give him any sort of topline. Same with his front - his chest is deep and his feet are east/west, but you will not see the bridged feet because the stacker has his feet adjusted and turned in prior to the stack, but if you can catch it, you will see the back front is slightly out and that still will bug me to my grave LOL... I probably need to update that picture - he is 11 mo. old there so structure has improved slightly since then, but you can see what I am talking about.


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## qbchottu

Ok length, but too steep and with the topline, it makes it look even more extreme so definitely stretch him out more to even it out. Whiskey's croup is worse - you can see how it does not look THAT bad in that picture because of how his topline is evened out.


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## KristiM

wildo said:


> It's funny KristiM that you think he has too much angulation, while qbchottu thinks he could show more angulation. I suppose it's all subjective, but I have to agree with qbchottu. I don't find his rear to look overly angulated, and in fact I thought he could be a little more angled back there- specifically, just a bit longer in lower leg.
> 
> But I had a question about that:
> Can a dog with a short croup be overly angled? It was my understanding that a short croup should REDUCE angulation in the rear. Is that not true?


I very much prefer a moderate, athletically built dog and to me lots of rear angulation doesn't bode well for general athletisism. That being said he is quite agile and can jump, climb and land like a cat. But I think that may also have more to do with his personality than his structure.

Good question about the croup length. I have no idea.


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## qbchottu

KristiM said:


> Thanks fo the in depth critique! What exaclty are flat withers?


An example of extremely flat withers. 










Globalhaus German Shepherds | Breeder | North Carolina | Puppies | Breed Standard
#2 is withers.


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## KristiM

I definitely see what you mean about stacking. I think I am still confused about the withers though, what is their realtion to shoulder blade angulation? Or is there any? I am looking at my "dog steps" book right now try to find the difference between "wither position."

The way I see Havoc is his neck just kind of "abruptly" turns into his topline. Is that look caused by the flat wither?

ETA: I think you just answered my question with that picture


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## qbchottu

Great 

An example of high withers: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=125000


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## wildo

Kristi, the angled wither is desirable because it indicates tall dorsal processes on the thoracic section of the spine. This is important because the taller processes mean that the muscles connecting between them and the scapula can be longer and stronger allowing more extension (via flexibility) and more power on contraction (via mechanics of angulation). Based on mechanics, I'm guessing that a dog with flat withers will likely have limited range of motion (extension) forward and also will not have a lot of power in their front end (for, say, scaling a wall where they have to pull themselves over). See here for some more info on that.


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## KristiM

Thanks wildo! I did read that thread (and just read it again) I am just curious though what is the signifigance of the fact that he doesn't have that "dip" behind his wither? in comparing havoc to Odin for example I think that Odin has a nicer front and he has much better reach and movement but he DOES have a very obvious dip. 

Odins critique thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/169185-odin-2-y-o-male.html


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## wildo

Honestly, I'm not sure. haha! I think that some dogs will show the dip regardless of their muscling and/or withers. I've been told by a canine physical therapist that at least some of the dip can be eliminated by specific, targeted exercise.


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## KristiM

I have noticed that odin's dip is much more prevalent when he is doing A LOT of swimming. It's almost gone by spring (no swimming in the winter.) I know when they swim they are pretty much only using front/shoulder muscles, maybe this causes the loss or imbalance of some of his back muscles. Interesting stuff anyways. 

Now that I am a bit more clear on withers I think havoc's flat withers are the main thing I'm not liking about his front. I also think he is straighter in the front in person (when you can get your hands on him) than he looks in the photos. I would think that his upright shoulder blade really contributes to his flat wither.


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## KristiM

Okay, I think I figured out why I dislike his croup so much. It was bugging me that it looked so much better in the stacked pictures than what I percieve in real life. I realized its because 80% of the time he stands with his tail straight up in the air (just in case someone 200 yards away was wondering how uber dominant he is) I attached a pic of how he normally stands and you can see how it makes his croup look funny.


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## KristiM

ETA: His feet and pasterns also look much nicer in that photo too


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## carmspack

KristiM , hi, I actually like the dogs rear and stifle , croup could be a little longer but good . He does not have too much rear , his problem is that he is not balanced in the front for that rear so the rear can never extend as much as it could because the front won't allow it. He will start lifting in the front . 
His head is young masculine , good .
I did catch his exhausted look and his lack of muscle . Then when you said 
" I honestly wish he was a little less "solid" since I do agility, he is a nice medium size though. Yes he does still have a lot of growing to do, I am seriously worried that he is going to be rather tankish when he is done. (Not very conducive to fast agility times "
I wondered if you are underfeeding him to keep him smallish, lean , fighting against his genetics and his caloric needs . He needs some reserve for his physical ability for speed and turns and just plain energy , but he also needs it for his immune health. His structure in the front will have more impact on his speed and agility than the pounds, as long as they are healthy pounds.


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## KristiM

carmspack said:


> KristiM , hi, I actually like the dogs rear and stifle , croup could be a little longer but good . He does not have too much rear , his problem is that he is not balanced in the front for that rear so the rear can never extend as much as it could because the front won't allow it. He will start lifting in the front .
> His head is young masculine , good .
> I did catch his exhausted look and his lack of muscle . Then when you said
> " I honestly wish he was a little less "solid" since I do agility, he is a nice medium size though. Yes he does still have a lot of growing to do, I am seriously worried that he is going to be rather tankish when he is done. (Not very conducive to fast agility times "
> I wondered if you are underfeeding him to keep him smallish, lean , fighting against his genetics and his caloric needs . He needs some reserve for his physical ability for speed and turns and just plain energy , but he also needs it for his immune health. His structure in the front will have more impact on his speed and agility than the pounds, as long as they are healthy pounds.


I agree with everything you said! He does lack balance, his rear reach far surpasses his front reach, you can really see this when he is moving. He also is VERY comfortable pacing and didn't really learn to trot until he was about 10 months when I started running with him. 

As for how thin he is, I actually didn't do a critique thread before because he was VERY skinny, I just got some weight on him. He eats about 3.5 - 4 pounds per day! If I didn't own a raw dog food company I would be living in a card board box to feed him lol. I think once I'm hiking less in the winter I will be able to get a little more weight on him. I really do wish he was less stocky though, it's one of the reasons my next dog may be a mal (unless i can gind a GSD that has truly nice working structure.) That all being said, I think he will still be very fast in agility in spite of his structure.


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## KristiM

I got some video of him beside the bike today for a possible movement critique? I know the video is kinda crappy but you can at least see how cute he is


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## robk

Havoc is the same age as Ruger and looks to be approximately the same size and weight. I am confident that both of our dogs will continue to fill out as they mature. Ruger is also 100% raw and is growing VERY slow.


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## KristiM

Ya those raw fed dogs sure do take their time growing...


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