# remote training for fear/aggressive dog



## gone (May 30, 2008)

ive got a four year old female german shepherd. she has been fearful and dog aggressive for years. a trainer at petsmart said that they could 100% turn my dog around using remote training. i'm pretty skeptical, not just about the money but also doing more harm than good.

i'm sure there's two sides when it comes to remote training. does anyone have an opinion on it, especially for a fearful dog? 

one of my main problems is that i cant walk my dog on a leash in the neighborhood. she pulls me the whole time and i think that this is from anxiety and fear. she just wants to get back to the house.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread may be of interest http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-ugly/87010-can-fear-aggression-overcome.html
I aske the same question way back when, Lou Castle who is an e-collar expert chimed in with a link. There was much discussion, and some got off the topic. But the thread is worth reading.

Personally, I don't think you can fix it with just an e-collar, it is daily management and confidence building. If you haven't had your dog thoroughly checked by a vet for medical problems, I'd start there first. She may be vitamin/mineral deficient and her brain is misfiring.

If medical checks out fine, then go with counter-conditioning and confidence building. 
The book Control Unleashed helped us and I highly recommend it over a Petsmart trainer. If you can find a class based on the principals of the book, I would go to it as well.

If you decide to go with the Petsmart trainer, I would have them explicitly outline every step(and throw some scenarios in there) to tell you how they can fix your dog 100% with an e-collar. And have some reference clients to back up their claims.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I went to a seminar with Trish King today and she was very clear. E-collars should never be used with fear. First, the "explosions" we see are reflex, like the way you automatically squint when a bright light is shone in your eyes. You can't control that. For dogs, these reflexes are just as automatic. The vast majority of dogs are peaceful. They don't want to fight. So fear means flight usually. But if they're on a leash, they can't flee. So they reflexively offer behaviors that create distance: barking, lunging, growling, etc. Usually these work because either the thing that made them afraid (the other dog) leaves or we, the owner, are embarrassed and scoot out of there fast. 

Punishing fear actually may squelch the behaviors for a while, but it won't undo the fear. Plus, fearful behaviors are often warnings to us. If we squash those behaviors, we can lose the warnings, and then just have dogs that erupt on us. Those are dogs that people say "we never saw it coming." Well, the dog TRIED to warn us. But we told him that warnings aren't allowed by punishing barking, lunging and growling. If he still can't flee and now he can't create distance -- he no longer has "flight" as an option -- plus owners are more inclined to assume that a quiet dog is "ok", so they don't automatically scoot out of there like they used to- then he often will "fight." He's still afraid. We just took away all of his tools, except the most powerful, most damaging one. 

I've personally read or watched almost all of these books and DVDs. Buy one or better yet, several and get a good idea of what options are available. Browse Dogwise.com

Browse Dogwise.com

I especially like Aloff, Sdao and Donaldson. Click to Calm is a good book, and although I haven't read it yet, someone I trust says that Nicole Wilde's book Help For Your Fearful Dog Welcome to Dogwise.com is excellent. Check it out. Chill Out Fido is a phenomenal book I recommend to almost everyone with a young or even slightly high-strung dog. It just has lots and lots of small easy-to-do tips and exercises. 

Of all of them, I like this approach best: Grisha Stewart's BAT DVD Welcome to Dogwise.com . And, best of all, I've seen that it WORKS!!!!! 


If I had a dog with significant reactivity issues, I'd make sure I had a trainer with significant experience dealing with behavioral issues, especially aggression. Training obedience skills is NOT the same as dealing with behavior issues. If the PetSmart trainer says they do, then they should be able give you references -- clients who have had aggressive dogs and have improved. 

Here are some places to look for experienced credentialed trainers:

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/default.aspx

http://www.iaabc.org/

http://www.ccpdt.org/index.php?option=com_mtree&Itemid=16

When you call around, ask about experience, tell the trainer exactly what you have and generally what you're looking for. Since you've read a book and watched a DVD or a few, you'll have a better idea of what you want to do. Of course, you should be open-minded to what the professional suggests, but it helps if you start with a shared vision. 


So, I think it might be very helpful to load up on some books.These will have some ideas of what you can do at home right away. Learn about fear vs. aggression. THEN decide how you want to deal with training. When dealing with behavioral issues, we're investing in our dogs for the rest of their lives. So it makes sense to take the time, do some homework, and do what really makes sense. If she's been fearful for years, it's going to take an investment of time to rehab her. I won't lie to you. But a good trainer should be able to help you. 

And finally -- and this is just my opinion -- but a good PROFESSIONAL trainer would never EVER guarantee you 100% turn-around in training a living breathing creature. Nothing is certain in dog training. Nothing. Should you be able to expect success? Probably. Or the trainer should be very honest about that upfront with you (and review with you your options at that point). But 100%? I'd run away from that trainer and never look back.... 

(BTW, the Dogwise links above work. They're just not labeled right.)


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I just came across this article today but haven't had time to read it all yet: Say No to Shock Collars

Michaela


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

3K9Mom said:


> E-collars should never be used with fear.


This would be my thought. 

I have a fear aggressive dog and I work at keeping her stress levels low. 

Other people have had success in working through the aggression.


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## crown86 (Feb 23, 2010)

I had the same issue with Roscoe..ie the fear agression. The only way to make it better was confidence building and mass socialization desensetising. My trainer uses both the pinch collar and the e-collar. The e-collar was not used for confidence building one bit. My trainer showed me how to use the e-collar properly but it is used to train in the recall. Roscoe had an issue not so much running away but coming when called off leash. She explained that I had to be VERY careful with Roscoe and the e-collar because he can easily shut down. On the dogtra collar roscoe responds to a nick of like 15 to no more than 20, which when I putt on my own arm I can barely feel...most times he responds to just the vibrate function. At this point, 4 months using an e-collar off leash, Roscoes recalls are darn near perfect, however I would never let him off leash without it. I like having some control with him off leash playing frisbee etc just in case he decides to chase a stranger run into a street chase a car, not come when called ...he does none of these things now but i like the just in case control for the amount of control one can have off leash.

I would say in the case of my GSD Roscoe an e-collar alone no way it would have stopped the fear agression by itself, knowing what I learned in training, I feel it would have made him one times worse if it was just an e-collar alone.

The confidence building with Roscoe is still an ongoing project. In the begining all he did was bark and lunge at people. The pinch or prong collar helped with that bigtime. Me personally until I went to training would never have dreamed of getting a pinch or e-collar. My trainer also trains service and therapy dogs so I figured so knows me than me. The pinch/prong collar got Roscoe walking perfectly and virtually eliminated all of the lunging and 99% of the fear agression barking.

The thing that helped bigtime was the multitude of trips to petsmart and "hi I'm John will you pet my dog, will you give my dog a treat". I was in petsmart so much, like literally 5 nights a week, I felt bad for not buying things. Then as the weather got warmer the park. Same thing Hi will you pet my dog. This has helped roscoe BIGTIME. I guess it like face the fear and the fear dies. Slowly he has begun to understand people are ok and even very fun. I notice if I slip up or slack on the continued socialization he will slide back a bit...nothing like when I first got him..small things I notice.

I am continuing training to make him a therapy dog. He also recently got involved in Dock Dogs..he's no huge flyer but man he loves the water and frisbee. I got Roscoe as an adoption in Baltimore and was from the straight out gehtto. He was absolutly used for protection. While the orginal did not mistreat him I would absolutly say this is where he recieved his fear agression because the people he was around were something to be afraid of I suppose. He is night and day now 6 months later. It takes a lot of time thats for sure but he is woth every minute of to me.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I find it interesting that a Petsmart trainer is allowed to promote e-collar training. The company's policy is that their trainers are supposed to use "only positive" methods. They actually have to get permission from their manager if they want to suggest a prong collar be used on a dog in class.

You need to be extremely cautious and really think it over before opting to go in this direction with your dog. E-collars can help with some things (such as Roscoe's recall) but there is a huge risk of doing irreparable damage to your dog using one too. In my area there was recently a very sad case where a successful sport dog was sent to a big name chain e-collar trainer to be "rehabbed". Despite his success with competition his owners had struggled with aggression issues since they adopted him as an older puppy. Within weeks of coming home from the trainer, he attacked his owner. It was as though he had totally flipped out. He was still so agitated the following day that he was euthanized in his crate because no one could get him out. No doubt this dog had always had aggression problems but not to this degree. A friend of mine lives in an area where e-collar training is extremely popular with pet owners. When I told her about it, she said it didn't surprise her because she had talked to many people who reported that after using ecollar training their dogs were never quite right - would obey but act agitated or nervous all the time or would have stress related behaviors such as excessive pacing, whining or licking. Sort of like post-traumatic stress disorder with dogs.

Again I'm not saying this is always the case with ecollar use. I was be extremely cautious of any trainer who tells you they can 100% turn your dog around, regardless of what method they are promoting. There are just too many variables and such much depends on the individual dog and owner involved. I would be especially cautious when they are promoting ecollar training as some sort of guaranteed fix-all because IME that is the exact type of trainer that is likely to really screw up your dog. 

The very first dog I ever trained was an extremely fearful and at times reactive Dobe mix that was rescued form the dog pound as puppy. The thing that worked for him was taking him to training classes consistently, working him him at home, teaching him lots of tricks and fun stuff like nose work/jumping/doing obstacles and taking him every where with him. People who met him after he was about three or four could never believe when I told them he used to have any problems, he was such a happy, outgoing and "normal" dog by then. When we moved to a new neighborhood, this dog was a favorite of the kids - everyone wanted to see his tricks, especially the counting one. 

Around the same time, a friend had a PWD that had been totally unsocialized and mostly kept in a basement until she got him at 6 months. It took him a bit longer to come around - I started working with my dog at 8 weeks (he was already fearful, so I suspect there was a genetic component at work there) which is an ideal age to start a puppy. But that dog too eventually was able to be normal, other than never warming up to strange men in uniforms. 

Both us us had several things in common. We both didn't put a lot of focus on our dog's problem. This was the dog we had gotten and while we may have wished for an easier dog at times, we were too busy training our dog to worry too much about working on any special behavior protocols for their fear issues (and didn't know about them anyway). We both were able to focus on working with just that one dog, until they were really good. We both started working with those dogs when we were 11 years old and joined a 4H club. We certainly didn't do everything right! But what we lacked in training know-how, we more than made up for in enthusiasm for teaching our dogs to do stuff. Yep two young girls without any special behavior knowledge, who had never trained any other dog before managed to successfully rehab two large fearful (and in my dog's case reactive) dogs. There is hope for your fearful dog but the solution is never going to come from a quick fix.


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## gone (May 30, 2008)

this girl worked for petsmart but i think she does her own thing on the side. she said she had went to las vegas for some class on remote training. i think it was related to the sit means sit guy.

she said it was all 100% positive reinforcement but i became skeptical when she "guaranteed" results.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

gone said:


> this girl worked for petsmart but i think she does her own thing on the side. she said she had went to las vegas for some class on remote training. i think it was related to the sit means sit guy.


 Yes Sit-Means-Sit is a franchise, the original owner is in that area but there are now SMS training schools all over the country. Remember in my story I said the dog was sent to a big name chain e-collar trainer?

I would contact Petsmart and at least make the manager aware that this woman is promoting her own training business on the side working there and that it conflicts with their training philosophy.



gone said:


> she said it was all 100% positive reinforcement but i became skeptical when she "guaranteed" results.


You are very right to be skeptical.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

You CAN'T use an e-collar and call that technique "positive reinforcement." It's either negative reinforcement or positive punishment.

The trainer can add in treats or toys which may be positive reinforcers (if, in fact, they reinforce the behavior and cause it to repeat.). But we can also reinforce behaviors we don't want. So if the e-collar creates more anxiety and therefore more fear-based behaviors, then adding in reinforcers can cause behaviors we don't want to replicate. And via classical conditioning, we can even replicate and intensify the fear.

At any time with training, we have the option of using any of the four quadrants of training: Positive or Negative Reinforcement

We can use one, two, three or all four. It depends on the trainer, her philosophy about training, what she's trying to accomplish, the subject dog and what works best with him, the environment, the owner's desires, -- a whole host of variables that SHOULD be carefully thought out. 

But a good trainer understands what she is doing and how she is using them.

This woman doesn't appear to have a clue -- if she did, she wouldn't be saying it's "*100%* positive reinforcement." I don't know her, don't know anything about her training or experience. But based on what you've said, she's tossing around buzzwords like "positive reinforcement," but doesn't really know what she's doing. 

People like this are dangerous. Putting a fearful, reactive,much less an aggressive dog in their care can cause you far more problems than you have now, more than you can imagine.

It's not the e-collar itself. It's the e-collar in the hands of someone who doesn't understand the BASICS of learning theory. I mean, this basic behavior psychology that is taught in most Psych 101 classes. If people don't comprehend learning theory, they most certainly should not be using heavy-handed tools like e-collars. 

I wouldn't let her within 500 yards of my dogs.


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## crown86 (Feb 23, 2010)

Here is another situation in which I am using the e-collar with Roscoe. Roscoe with the fear agression outside of his house is 99.9% perfect after six months of hardcore socalization and confidence building. When I say hardcore socalization I mean like 5 trips a week to petsmart or other stores parks etc. It's pretty neat my trainer trains service dogs so thru her I had the oppurtunity to bring Roscoe to plaaces likes Lowes Home Depot Walmart and a couple returaunts.

Roscoe still has a challenge with vistors coming to my house...meaning family or friends for dinner. Roscoe bit one person who was a friend of mine of just walked and my house and startled me. It was a weird thing my buddy walked in I didn't hear him and when I turned around I was like "whooah" and jumped back startled. then Roscoe went after him. The bite was not bad as far as bites go and Roscoe came off him asap with my voice telling him off. My trainer said I could not fault Roscoe at all that he was doing his job and I should tell people not to walk in my house unannounced.

The other problem was/is when I have guests Roscoe can go into the fear agression by either barking pacing and not coming near the people. This is taking awhile to break but he is night and day different since January. The reason I think it's taking longer it's not like I have people over everyday. When people come over I do not want them to be uncomfortable and I dont want Roscoe excluded...this is the goal.

My plan when I know people are coming over goes like this. I watch when they arrive. I have roscoe on his leash an pinch collar (no barking or lunging with the pinch for roscoe) and have him in a down position on his side with head down (time-out) by the door. After the people are comfortably in my house I bring Roscoe over to meet them briefly. Then as I visit with company I keep him on the leash and at my side. Slowly I give him the freedom to sniff them and approach, making no big deal about it..like while people are talking etc. but still on the leash. I do not take my eyes or eyes off Roscoe for a second. He teaching me the art of multitask..LOL. After a while like an hour of guests in the house and Roscoe introduced and acclimated to them I will sometime ask my guest to give him a treat if they are dog people. The next thing is I now drop the leash but leave it attached and give him more freedom provided he is showing no signs of fear in his body language. If he is he stays on the leash and at my side. I will not cave into his fear and simply put him in his crate. To me that would be very lazy on my part and completely fostering his fear.

I got Roscoe right before Xmas and he was very very afraid of people. I started training in January. I started keeping him at my side around mid march with guests and NOT letting him off the leash or leash dragging with guests until this month June. It's been a long process but the results are worth it. My last phase that Roscoe is at now is after my hour or so letting him get aquainted with the guests strangers and his body language is comfortable I put the e-collar on him and remove the leash. I make him stay around me but he is allowed to sniff and interact with the guests if he and they choose. The e-collar is used as an extension of the leash and thats it. Meaning if Roscoe is out of reach and I see a "bad" body signal I have some control to prevent him acting on his fear. 90% of the time all Roscoe needs is the vibrate function and a "no" from me to switch his mind set.

I had dinner guests over last night and within an hour the leash off...e-collar on and Roscoe was perfect let the guests pet him and was in typical GSD mode alert and aloof. My guest said wow your dog is well behaved but he seems like he is not sure of me , not that he makes me nervous he just watchs me. I never had to use the e-collar at all not even vibrate last night. The e-collar gives some asemblance of control without the leash period. The e-collar alone NO WAY would correct Roscoe's fear agression...it would have made it worse. I feel by allowing Roscoe the "earned" freedom based on good behaviour his confidence is getting stronger and stronger. The e-collar just allows me to increase freedom as earned and feel a sense of control to not let a situation get out of hand.

I would NEVER have gotten an e-collar not pinch/prong collar prior to training. My trainer uses a combo of positive and corrective...mosstly positive. I could see without being taught how to properly use these tools how a person could abuse the heck out of a dog.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

E-Collars can be used in many situations, even with dogs with fear issues, but should only be done under a quality trainer, which means not someone who is offering you a side deal from their job at Petsmart. I wouldnt rule out the e-collar completely, but I would defenetly rule out this trainer that approached you.

Used correctly, e-collars dont cause the dog fear, so when used in the right situation they can be very effective with dogs who do have fear issues. Again, it all depends, what your job is is to research/talk/visit trainers in your area. Ask about their methods and usage of the collar, ask to see a demonstration, have your dog evaluated without the collar first. When you ask on a message board about e-collars, you are going to get lots of different opinions, so its best to get all the info from trainers in your area who use the tool, then you can make the decision what is best for your dog.

here's a video of a fearful/aggressive dog being trained with a remote collar


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

For a fear aggressive dog I suggesting teaching the recall and then the sit, per my methods. These have the effect of building the dog's confidence. You can see the recall protocol HERE. The sit protocol is HERE. 

Some dogs may need some additional work and that protocol is  HERE. 

Contrary to the opinions of some, usually this is all that's necessary. Usually people who say this have never used an Ecollar in this manner for this issue. 

Here's some video showing the dramatic changes that can be expected in a very short time. It's another trainer doing the work and this dog was BOTH aggressive towards the human and other dogs.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

3K9Mom said:


> I went to a seminar with Trish King today and she was very clear. E-collars should never be used with fear.


 
I'm sure that Ms. King is a very good trainer. But I rarely take advice from people who do not have extensive experience in using Ecollar with low level stim methods and there are few of those folks around. 




3K9Mom said:


> First, the "explosions" we see are reflex, like the way you automatically squint when a bright light is shone in your eyes. You can't control that.


 
That's true but YOU can. By keeping the dog at some distance from the fear object you control how the dog reacts. The further away, the less reaction. You can avoid the _"explosions"_ completely by using distance. 




3K9Mom said:


> Punishing fear actually may squelch the behaviors for a while, but it won't undo the fear.


 
It seems that Ms. King is not familiar with my method of using the Ecollar to build confidence or she'd never talk about using the Ecollar to _"punish fear."_ That is how Ecollars used to be used for this issue and it often was not successful and sometimes had the opposite effect, it increased the aggression. 




3K9Mom said:


> Plus, fearful behaviors are often warnings to us. If we squash those behaviors, we can lose the warnings, and then just have dogs that erupt on us.


 
Yep, again, this comment shows that she is only familiar with using the Ecollar to punish behavior. 




3K9Mom said:


> If I had a dog with significant reactivity issues, I'd make sure I had a trainer with significant experience dealing with behavioral issues, especially aggression.


 

I'd agree but if you use my method you can do this work yourself. 




3K9Mom said:


> And finally -- and this is just my opinion -- but a good PROFESSIONAL trainer would never EVER guarantee you 100% turn-around in training a living breathing creature.


 
I think a lot of this has to do with using methods that are just not effective. I've had this method fail once and then it was because the dog's owner did not do his homework.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

AgileGSD said:


> You need to be extremely cautious and really think it over before opting to go in this direction with your dog. E-collars can help with some things (such as Roscoe's recall) but there is a huge risk of doing irreparable damage to your dog using one too.




It's virtually impossible to do any _"irreparable to your dog"_ if you're using low level stim with my methods. 




AgileGSD said:


> In my area there was recently a very sad case where a successful sport dog was sent to a big name chain e-collar trainer to be "rehabbed".


 
Since there is only one _"chain Ecollar trainer"_ it's easy to speak to this. These folks DO NOT use low level stim, no matter what they tell you. I use stim at the level that the dog first perceives. They use it just below where the dog screams in pain. A very few of them work lower than that but they are quite rare.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

3K9Mom said:


> At any time with training, we have the option of using any of the four quadrants of training: Positive or Negative Reinforcement
> 
> We can use one, two, three or all four.




I don't think you can use _"one"_ phase. I think you are always using at least two phases. Perhaps considering one very brief moment in time this statement is accurate but over the course of a training session at least two phases are in use.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Lou, those are great videos, thank you for posting them! Everyone who thinks that when e-collars are used it will increase a dogs fear/stress/aggression needs to watch those!


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## Kriller (Aug 11, 2010)

*Definitely recommend E-collars!*

I know this is an old thread but wow I am really surprised how many people answer without ANY knowledge about E-collars! Remote collar training was the best decision I ever made for my dog. People hear this and they automatically think "shock collar". Well shock collars were used decades ago and they only had about 5 settings that were all very high. Yes, they would hurt the dogs in attempting to correct their problems. This is NOT the case anymore with collars like the Dogtra collar I use. This collar has 127 settings because all dogs have different sensitivity levels. You can try it on yourself, I have! (Low settings of course). If you put it on the right setting for your dog its just like tapping it on the shoulder and saying hey pay attention to me. You're not shocking or hurting your dog in any way if used correctly. PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH!
E-collars are definitely a helpful POSITIVE tool when used correctly. I clicker trained my dog successfully except for her barking problem. She had confidence and fear issues around other dogs and sometimes strange people. Part of it was she was a young puppy during the winter in the high sierras where I live. Didn't get to see enough dogs during the extremely snowy season we had. No clicker training could have fixed her barking and lunging at other dogs. She is now 11 months old and is a completely different dog thanks to an e-collar! I wouldn't go to a big company like petsmart for this training. I spent a lot of time finding the right trainer for her and I am so happy I did. Now I go hiking with my girl completely off leash and she is a happy and confident German Shepherd. This was achieved after only ONE MONTH using an E-collar!! I get compliments all the time on how well trained she is. I would recommend an E-collar to anyone any day!! Thanks to this wonderful training I have a happier and more confident dog. Here is a video of my beautiful girls progress!! http://www.youtube.com/dgareno


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