# Training order for Shutz/IPO???



## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

Is there a set rule on the training order for schutzhund? Is it necessary to train OB first then tracking and finally bitework? Or can you train all 3 venues at the same time? I would think that OB should be 100% or close before you move on to tracking and bitework. Thinking it could get nasty and dangerous for helper if OB is not 100%. My pup is 8 months and his OB is okay, not perfect (schutzhund standard) by far. I don't want to rush my boy (or myself) into something he is not ready for. Should i hold off the bitework portion until his OB is better? Having a solid OB is the most important to me. But i do want to do all three. 

The reason i ask is that i have been looking for a schutzhund club in my area and i finally found one through one of our trainers. She trains OB and tracking and she told me that she goes to a small club to work her dogs in bite work. I went and checked it out the following week. The trainer is a police officer that trains the police K9's. After watching him i have now doubt that he is qualified and well experienced. He has titled his own dogs in Schutzhund. He did a eval on my boy and he passed with flying colors (good boy ). It seemed like he the (trainier) wanted to get him started right away with some bitework next week. It caught me off guard because i was thinking that we would have to spend a few months at least in OB before we were allowed to start bitework.

Titling my dog is not very important to me "right now", i just want to work with him in all venues of schutzhund.

Thanks for your time and advice.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

You can do all three at the same time if you want. 

Most pups are not ready for "bite work", but they can do prey games and rag work. 

In fact, putting too much obedience on a young dog can be detrimental to tracking and bite work. Because your dog has learned to be looking to you constantly for direction and both those areas require independent thought. 



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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

I train all three from the beginning. Like they said its a lot of foundation in all three areas for puppies. Schutzhund OB is not something that can be taught quickly. People can take years training their dogs in OB, there is a lot of details in it. 


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## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

thanks for responding so quickly, (I LOVE THIS SITE :wub Now i am more at ease and ready to start our long journey in schutzhund/IPO. woohoo:wild:

gsdsar- after reading your post, i remember the trainer saying to work him with the rag and the flirt pole. Maybe that is what he intended on doing and not biting the sleeve right away. 

MilesNY- That makes me feel better about my boy not being 100% in OB. We will keep working on it. 

thanks again


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Dogs intended to train for competitions are introduced to all three types simultaneously and as soon as possible. Protection training seriously starts at one year and half, but your dog gets familiar with the game and its rules long before and gradually. Majority of GSDs learn picking the scent and tracking pretty quickly, but not many could stand the length of time required, necessary stamina is something which is built up gradually. And protection, and tracking would need good knowledge of general obedience commands, your dog will learn them simply on the way. If something has to be reinforced - your instructor will tell you and you will have a separate individual lesson to correct this or that.
What goes first - that is what your trainer is going to tell you. Don't waste time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It really depends on the person and the dog. My current dog started all three phases young. My second dog did a lot of obedience, then started protection more seriously around 15 months, but didn't do much tracking until after 2 years. I attended a seminar where the trainers said they do almost all the protection work *before* they start obedience. Each person has their own way that works for them and the type of dogs they prefer to train.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would rather start a young dog in obedience(focus/positions/recalls) and tracking and wait a bit for protection. 
If the dog has 'it'~ the protection phase for a young dog may only mean grip work, carrying....and the teething stage plays into bitework. Keep the confidence built up and no problems later.
I love tracking, and learn more about my dog doing it. Teach articles and the blind searches fairly early. I also think teaching the retrieves early on is beneficial while the dog is still in that spongy biddable stage. But the dog must know that commitment to retrieves is always a given. 
I'm not a fan of rushing the dog in foundation just for the titles, to me it is the journey and bond while we train. I want a solid foundation and not pressure placed on a dog too early.


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## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the great info. I really appreciate you guys taking time in helping me and my Jango. We will continue going to training and see how things unfold and have trust in our trainier. 

This reminds of an old saying some old chinese guy said "You are like this cup; you are full of ideas. You come and ask for teaching, but your cup is full; I can't put anything in. Before I can teach you, you'll have to empty your cup." _Zen Master Ryutan (Lung-t'an Ch'ung-hsin or Longtan Chongxin, 760-840)._

I will empty my cup and welcome new knowledge.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Ronin864 said:


> have trust in our trainier.


 

^This is key. If you talk to ten trainers, then you will be told ten different ways to train your dog. So just find one you like and trust and follow their plan. I have tried many different methods. I truly believe none are right or wrong, just different. One of my dogs was started doing rag work at 8 weeks old and zero obedience or tracking until it was over a year old, one was started in all three phases at 8 weeks old and my current puppy is doing mostly obedience with a little rag work thrown in and zero tracking until about 6 months before we will trial.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

There is never enough time to train the 3 phases...


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## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

Well after talking with my trainer, I have decided to wait a little bit on the bite work and focus on OB and tracking. Although I will keep playing with my boy with the flirt pole, tugs, and ball on a rope "prey games" (which he loves more than anything...addict) while training OB and tracking. Thanks again for everyone posting

Just wanted to add, yesterday my wife was at training with Jango by herself and I showed up later and tried to sneak and watch them train. They were outside about 25-30 yards away and the wind was blowing. My dog didn't see me but all of the sudden he started sniffing up in the air and started to wine. (I was up wind from him) He continued to sniff with his nose up and was trying to pull away from my wife and started to make more noise and was not sitting like he was suppose to.(Good proofing for her, although she did'nt think so... The training was a basic OB class my wife is taking because she doesn't have the control over him like I do and she wants to work on it more...good wifey. It was pretty cool that he could smell me and knew I was somewhere but did not know where....amazing, just amazing. The trainer told us he should do fine in tracking...


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## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

@Catu...isn't that the truth...


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I think it depends on your relationship with the dog. The top shutzhund guys seem to me to be kinda old school, they took a long time to learn what they know and they arent about to change any time soon. Some of them keep dogs in a kennel all the time and let it out to work. They choose to do prey drive, focus, protection, and eventually when the dog has crazy drive they attempt obedience. What I see is a crazy dog with zero obedience, they have to yell commands and yank on collars with 2 year old dogs.
My dog is a companion first and foremost, shutzhund is something to keep her happy and a breed standard test. but obedience is a must for me, we cant live without that but we could live without shutzhund. My trainer hates me doing obedience and has accused me of expecting shuts 3 out of a pup. But I followed the Micheal Ellis food and tug dvds, I dont think its pressure on my pup, its just a fun game where she gets rewards.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I also think the obedience last method is a way to get dogs to pass that would otherwise fail. That is the opposite of a breed standard test in my opinion. The dogs that cant handle it (obedience, protection, or able to balance the 2) shouldnt be coddled along in training in order to then go on and breed more questionable dogs.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

volcano said:


> I think it depends on your relationship with the dog. The top shutzhund guys seem to me to be kinda old school, they took a long time to learn what they know and they arent about to change any time soon. Some of them keep dogs in a kennel all the time and let it out to work. They choose to do prey drive, focus, protection, and eventually when the dog has crazy drive they attempt obedience. What I see is a crazy dog with zero obedience, they have to yell commands and yank on collars with 2 year old dogs.
> My dog is a companion first and foremost, shutzhund is something to keep her happy and a breed standard test. but obedience is a must for me, we cant live without that but we could live without shutzhund. My trainer hates me doing obedience and has accused me of expecting shuts 3 out of a pup. But I followed the Micheal Ellis food and tug dvds, I dont think its pressure on my pup, its just a fun game where she gets rewards.



Disagree on this. You can not lump all trainers and competitors into one genre. Depends on who you are exposed to and their training methods. What we have seen is people that trained and competed a few years ago, usually with already trained dogs, that do not understand the fundementals of training and use the quick force aspect of training. When usually it takes a little bit longer with other methods, but the foundation and the consistency of performance is more reliable.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm with you Sue. That poster sounds like a person that has limited exposure and dealings with Sch in general.....like maybe one club and first dog attempted to title. I could be wrong, but there are many top trainers I know who do not do things that particular way, and for those reasons. Some do, many dont !


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I wish I could be trained by one of teh trainers Micheal Ellis has trained. I like his methods but they dont jive with the trainers Ive met.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

What area are you in? That would help.


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## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

smithie86...were you asking me what area I'm in or were you asking volcano? 

I am really new to the schutzhund world. Titling isn't my top priority right now, but that may change as we progress. Obediance is number 1. The protection just looks like a lot of fun for my dog. It was the first club I've visited and Jango is my first GSD. Didn't even know what schutzhund was until I joined this site. Couldn't even pronounce it correctly, then when i finally learned how to say it with out sounding like a complete idiot I found out they changed it to IPO...urgh

I certianly don't want to rush anything. I am as patient as they come and a strong believer in building a soild foundation and understanding the fundementals. 

I also have been watching the Micheal Ellis videos. I've rented everyone that bowwowflix carries.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Both


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## Ronin864 (Dec 3, 2012)

Fresno Ca


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

volcano said:


> I think it depends on your relationship with the dog. The top shutzhund guys seem to me to be kinda old school, they took a long time to learn what they know and they arent about to change any time soon. Some of them keep dogs in a kennel all the time and let it out to work. They choose to do prey drive, focus, protection, and eventually when the dog has crazy drive they attempt obedience. What I see is a crazy dog with zero obedience, they have to yell commands and yank on collars with 2 year old dogs.


 This is not true for the VAST majority of people training in the sport, even at high levels. The rules do not allow people to train that way anymore. If the Top guys don't change what they do when the sport changes, they do not stay on top very long. ALL of the top guys now a days have absolutely changed from what they did 10 years ago....Training has come a long way and because of that the judging has tightened up on dogs that appear to be trained in the "old school" ways. Dogs that show pressure loose way too many points to actually compete in Champiohsips.

I know from competeing and training with a lot of the top guys in this country that this statement is not true at all.

I think you have not seen enough of the top trainers actually train and are making assumptions... It is actually kind of insulting for the people that actully do train for high levels but have great relationships and train obedience motivationally from a very young age with their dogs....

Frank


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

volcano said:


> I also think the obedience last method is a way to get dogs to pass that would otherwise fail. That is the opposite of a breed standard test in my opinion. The dogs that cant handle it (obedience, protection, or able to balance the 2) shouldnt be coddled along in training in order to then go on and breed more questionable dogs.


Well, it's certainly not my method (I start ob with puppies and at Schutzhund training I don't allow my dogs to come out and do protection unless they've done obedience that day, even if we didn't really need club help/resources for what we are doing in ob), but the people I've seen who do this have titled probably over a dozen dogs and coached others to title probably several dozen dogs so I have to assume they know what they are doing as far as training dogs to do well in Schutzhund, as a breed test.


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