# not sitting fast enough



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

how to get him to sit fast and also sometimes he does this slow motion sit and the butt doesn't hit the floor until he's sure he must sit
probably something I did 

also, sits stand and down in motion. how's is that taught. is there a diff method other than getting him to sit while I'm walking slow, then faster, then faster

that's what I've been doing and it works most of the time but I have a feeling there's another method to it

I can't watch Ivan's videos for some reason. get errors everywhere. he has some videos on this, right?


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

The things you bring up are exactly what I'm looking to do with my pup. I can't get him to down when we are walking without me stopping to give the command.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

You get speed when the dog is in drive. 

You create speed in motion exercises by rewarding the dog the moment it sits or downs. Faster you reward the faster the dog wants to do the command. 

Why do you need your pet dog to do commands with speed? I think your goal should be consistency.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes the speed and variety -- I think I noticed this on one of your videos lala -- when the dog sit -- a l m o s t sit , you spring in to action , so the dog is taught to be ready to move again. Common mistake. Sit - and wait count to 15 , next time count to whatever, mix it up , but put some longer sits in. Another thing that happens when you move on too fast is that when you have stopped and the dog is sitting the dog gets fidgety because he has been trained and expects to get going again.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> You get speed when the dog is in drive.
> 
> You create speed in motion exercises by rewarding the dog the moment it sits or downs. Faster you reward the faster the dog wants to do the command.
> 
> Why do you need your pet dog to do commands with speed? I think your goal should be consistency.


so if it's a pet I can wait until he decides to sit? why bother with teaching anything at all if it can be sloppy?

newsflash. sport dogs are pets too. they're just used for their owners' hobbies. or if I teach my dog to lay in bed every day for 17 hours (which is my hobby) then he will become the working dog?


anyway, back to my question which you partly answered


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> yes the speed and variety -- I think I noticed this on one of your videos lala -- when the dog sit -- a l m o s t sit , you spring in to action , so the dog is taught to be ready to move again. Common mistake. Sit - and wait count to 15 , next time count to whatever, mix it up , but put some longer sits in. Another thing that happens when you move on too fast is that when you have stopped and the dog is sitting the dog gets fidgety because he has been trained and expects to get going again.


thank you!!!!! I knew I did this. 

I recorded a video this morning for my other thread but it was so horrifying that I decided not to post it. the comments would be like beating on a baby. I cringed watching it myself.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> so if it's a pet I can wait until he decides to sit? why bother with teaching anything at all if it can be sloppy?
> 
> newsflash. sport dogs are pets too. they're just used for their owners' hobbies. or if I teach my dog to lay in bed every day for 17 hours (which is my hobby) then he will become the working dog?
> 
> ...


Lol let me repeat my question since you didn't seem to understand it. 

Why do you need your pet dog to sit with speed? Your goal should be Consistency.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you DO want your dog to do things crisply .

sit means you sit quickly and butt on the ground , not poised to spring . 

gib laut "Why do you need your pet dog to do commands with speed? "

For the same reason you want a dog to respond to a recall quickly , not 50 feet later. For the same reason when you say "leave it" you want the dog to step away before it has picked up the glass or picked up and swallowed some garbage.

Do it . Do it now.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> Lol let me repeat my question since you didn't seem to understand it.
> 
> Why do you need your pet dog to sit with speed? Your goal should be Consistency.


I don't. I don't need him to do anything at all really. he's almost two and I've been doing perfectly fine with the little training that he has. 

I want to learn to train. hobby. besides the bed one. you know?

oh yeah. he sits consistently slow. but consistently sits.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

carmspack said:


> "
> For the same reason you want a dog to respond to a recall quickly , not 50 feet later. For the same reason when you say "leave it" you want the dog to step away before it has picked up the glass or picked up and swallowed some garbage.
> 
> Do it . Do it now.


Either you or I are misunderstanding her reasoning. To me she watches Ivan and his dog and wants that same picture. Sit platz stand platz in rapid succession with speed. Imo that's unrealistic and a little unfair to the dog. Ivans dog has enough drive for two dogs.


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## Psalm 23 (Jul 7, 2014)

Gib_laut said:


> You get speed when the dog is in drive.
> 
> I agree, a dog in proper drive will do commands as quickly and precisely as you could possibly want. What drive does your dog seem to opperate best at? ( i.e food, prey, play). Once you identify that,which im sure you already know, I think you will be able to execute your goal. Good luck


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GL, I do. I can understand my dog not wanting to tug or bite and I won't ask that from him (meaning won't correct for not tugging). but are you really saying a dog with no drive can't learn to sit fast?

I want to learn to train. if I keep settling for sloppy I will never learn. 

also. this isn't even close to Ivan's now. he sits in slow motion sometimes and that's why I'm posting. drive or no drive, to me it sounds like he doesn't want to sit unless he's sure I'm going to make him. sounds like I messed up somewhere. Carmen pointed out where.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Is this part of genetics or inherent trait too? My cattle dog just naturally do everything fast once he learned it, in drive or not in drive. My GSD will do a 1-2-3 sit. She's doing the sit as soon as I say it, just not flashy, more of a slow motion sit. I think if I put two dogs side by side and have them compete for how fast they sit, I've no doubt my cattle dog will win.

From this stand point, I get what Gib laut is saying. As long as my GSD starts the sit as soon as I said it, it is fine with me that she sits slower naturally. My cattle dog also falls flat to the floor much harder when tired than my GSD who is more gentle with her precious body. She will not slam herself to the floor.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Psalm 23 said:


> Gib_laut said:
> 
> 
> > You get speed when the dog is in drive.
> ...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

one more thing. the reason I'm thinking it's me and not his lack of drive is because sometimes he will sit and down lightening fast. that's when he really wants something I have. so he has it in him. it's def me


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

eddie1976E said:


> The things you bring up are exactly what I'm looking to do with my pup. I can't get him to down when we are walking without me stopping to give the command.


yeah sorry but I doubt you will get any answers in my threads lol. they always become a mess.


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## Psalm 23 (Jul 7, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Psalm 23 said:
> 
> 
> > food but we all know that with every piece that drive flattens. so I was hoping to develop the tugging. he loves to chase that's why I'm so surprised I can't get him to tug. isn't it the same drive? prey?
> ...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Psalm 23 said:


> lalachka said:
> 
> 
> > sorry my vocab may not be official, the way I see it "play" drive would be when your rewards are in relation to playful events he enjoys that directly involve you; and prey would be the chase. If he likes to play fight and roll on the ground with you, playing "find it"/"Hide & Seek" or other mental games he loves, playing tug- intersplice those in between the commands. Also have you ever tried a flirt pole? I just made one and Zeke loves it! I think this a great question in which every dog will respond differently, but IMO developing a proper drive is the starting point.
> ...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> You get speed when the dog is in drive.
> 
> You create speed in motion exercises by rewarding the dog the moment it sits or downs. Faster you reward the faster the dog wants to do the command.
> .


how do I get the dog in drive?

also this was two separate questions. how do I get him to sit fast, not out of motion, just a regular sit. 

and the second question was how to train out of motion. 

how is out of motion stuff trained? I'm not up to the speed in out of motion yet. just looking for consistency there. but i already have consistency in regular sits and now want speed


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Have you read through this thread yet? Lot's of good info.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html

I've had some dogs that will sit, but they take their time doing it like how you're describing. I've got a 1 year old working line male that when I say sit, the ground shakes because he hits it so hard and fast. Then he stares at me to either throw the ball for a reward or give another command. That's drive. I didn't teach that, it just comes natural to him through his genetics. Some dogs have it, some don't.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You have to take it one step at a time Lala. Quick reps of CORRECT sits with fast rewards over and over again. I don't think dogs really exactly think in terms of speed, but if you teach a half sit and then try to fix it or speed it up, he'll probably be inconsistent and slow because he's confused about what you want.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

You get the dog in drive my using a tug or ball on string and make the dog miss a couple of times. Or throwing a ball and then holding his collar and not letting him get it. Build some frustration. 

To increase speed you should clicker train or marker train. Give the dog a command and the exact moment he does it correctly you click or mark and reward. Dog should learn the minute his butt hits the ground he will get the reward. When you chain commands together the dog should anticipate that he might get the reward after every single command so he does them all with speed. 

With that said, how much the dog wants that reward and how long it can stay in drive is genetic. My point is it seems like you watch a bunch of Michael Ellis and Ivan videos and expect your dog to look like that and it's unrealistic. You can tune a Honda as much as you want but it will never be as fast as a Ferrari.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I think the best thing you can do for you and your dog is to find a good trainer and work with them. It can be in a class setting or one-on-one, we personally do both, but find a trainer that you are comfortable with and work with them. A trainer can see both you and the dog and make the appropriate recommendations. What works to motivate one dog may not work with another, how you handle the dog is very important, etc. While it's good to read books and watch videos on dog training, you'll really learn best by getting out there and doing it with an experienced eye guiding you. I say this as someone who has always had obedient pet dogs but is trying to get into the sport world. Us newbs need all the help we can get.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It can be unfair to compare your dog to one on a video, but I know I like to watch high level people doing something I'm trying to do just to keep in mind that certain picture. I'm no Ivan, but watching him or some of the people I know and learn from, I'm always trying to copy them.

Be realistic Lala, but there are some things you can get from watching.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Have you read through this thread yet? Lot's of good info.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html
> 
> I've had some dogs that will sit, but they take their time doing it like how you're describing. I've got a 1 year old working line male that when I say sit, the ground shakes because he hits it so hard and fast. Then he stares at me to either throw the ball for a reward or give another command. That's drive. I didn't teach that, it just comes natural to him through his genetics. Some dogs have it, some don't.


yeah I read it. 
for sits I'm not so much going by videos but by how he sits the times he wants something from me. so he has it in him. I just want to know how to get it all the time.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> You have to take it one step at a time Lala. Quick reps of CORRECT sits with fast rewards over and over again. I don't think dogs really exactly think in terms of speed, but if you teach a half sit and then try to fix it or speed it up, he'll probably be inconsistent and slow because he's confused about what you want.


I'm not trying to speed up a good sit, i realize that I won't get what's on the video. but I'm also not settling for a slow motion one. what he'd doing isn't about drive, it's him not wanting to do it, I'm sure of it. 
the sits aren't about videos, it's about him doing it perfect when he wants something and me wanting to know how to get that all the time. 

also, I've taught sloppy sits, i reward things I shouldn't reward. I'm sure that this isn't a dog problem. I wasn't sure with the tug but I'm sure here. 

and you're right about the above. I will start over. 

also, after a year of sits he still doesn't understand fully what sit means. if he's laying down and I say sit he won't get it. I need to motion him up. so I'm def doing something wrong.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> You get the dog in drive my using a tug or ball on string and make the dog miss a couple of times. Or throwing a ball and then holding his collar and not letting him get it. Build some frustration.
> 
> To increase speed you should clicker train or marker train. Give the dog a command and the exact moment he does it correctly you click or mark and reward. Dog should learn the minute his butt hits the ground he will get the reward. When you chain commands together the dog should anticipate that he might get the reward after every single command so he does them all with speed.
> 
> With that said, how much the dog wants that reward and how long it can stay in drive is genetic. My point is it seems like you watch a bunch of Michael Ellis and Ivan videos and expect your dog to look like that and it's unrealistic. You can tune a Honda as much as you want but it will never be as fast as a Ferrari.


how much the dog wants the reward is genetic? how?
I can get him really hungry and then he will give me perfect sits. what's genetic about this? 

ok so since he doesn't have high drive he can't be taught anything and I should just settle for anything resembling what I'm asking for? 
first of all, I'm sure in different hands my dog would look much better. 
second of all, in my hands any dog will look bad. I'm trying to learn and I don't see why I can't get my dog trained pretty well. not one trainer told me anything bad about him, quite the opposite


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

osito23 said:


> I think the best thing you can do for you and your dog is to find a good trainer and work with them. It can be in a class setting or one-on-one, we personally do both, but find a trainer that you are comfortable with and work with them. A trainer can see both you and the dog and make the appropriate recommendations. What works to motivate one dog may not work with another, how you handle the dog is very important, etc. While it's good to read books and watch videos on dog training, you'll really learn best by getting out there and doing it with an experienced eye guiding you. I say this as someone who has always had obedient pet dogs but is trying to get into the sport world. Us newbs need all the help we can get.


I do have a trainer. he's pretty far and I can only see him once a month if that and the sessions are pretty short. I'd love to have someone good closer and more accessible but no luck finding someone like that. I've been to many trainers and tried finding a club, no luck. I'm in nyc, there are no sport trainees around here and that's all I'm interested in. I don't want a pet trainer, i tried 4 and didn't like them for different reasons.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I'd stop rewarding the slow sits. Period. Only reward the ones you like.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Have you read through this thread yet? Lot's of good info.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html
> 
> I've had some dogs that will sit, but they take their time doing it like how you're describing. I've got a 1 year old working line male that when I say sit, the ground shakes because he hits it so hard and fast. Then he stares at me to either throw the ball for a reward or give another command. That's drive. I didn't teach that, it just comes natural to him through his genetics. Some dogs have it, some don't.


Why do you think that Zelda will sit slowly, most of the time? But with downs she does a big thump and does them quick and with lots of enthusiasm? 

My only possible idea is that it could be her HD- maybe it hurts or is harder to sit than to down? 

Otherwise i'm at a loss. This girl has drive.. Maybe she doesn't know i want her to sit quicker? I always tried to do quick enthusiastic treat deliveries. 

But i guess someone pointed out, consistency over speed for a pet dog, and that is mostly true with Zelda. Although sit is sometimes a very important command for things like her FA- and if i need her to sit, sometimes quicker the _safer_.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> I'd stop rewarding the slow sits. Period. Only reward the ones you like.


Lol you're right. another problem of mine. I will watch myself. thank you!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've got one dog that has always had slow or hover sits, even when in high drive (that actually tends to make it worse). NRMs and not rewarding slow sits doesn't work with him. What worked best was putting a prong collar on backwards, so the leash attaches under his chin, and then when I give the sit command I give a quick correction *forward* using a light leash/line. My theory was that the oppositional reflex from me giving a quick correction forward would encourage him to pull/sit backward. He's never going to have the snappiest sits, but it did work better than any other method (luring, correcting up or back, not rewarding slower sits...).


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> how much the dog wants the reward is genetic? how?
> I can get him really hungry and then he will give me perfect sits. what's genetic about this?


Some dogs will do anything for a ball. Some dogs light up at the sight of a piece of kibble. That's genetic. 

If you have to starve a dog or lock it up until it's time to work to compensate for the lack of drive then I guess the dog didn't genetically have much drive to start with huh? 

Btw a starving dog sitting fast isn't doing with it enthusiasm. It's doing it because it's hungry. Two very different things.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> Some dogs will do anything for a ball. Some dogs light up at the sight of a piece of kibble. That's genetic.
> 
> If you have to starve a dog or lock it up until it's time to work to compensate for the lack of drive then I guess the dog didn't genetically have much drive to start with huh?
> 
> Btw a starving dog sitting fast isn't doing with it enthusiasm. It's doing it because it's hungry. Two very different things.


he's doing it with enthusiasm because he's hungry. same way the dogs do it with enthusiasm because they're hungry for the ball. 

don't exaggerate, not starving. just not full. let me rephrase. when he's doing it for his meal he does it quick. 


anyway, I think I didn't explain my problem correct. I don't think my problem is speed, it's not doing it with enthusiasm. it's like I'm making him and he's moving an inch a minute and it takes a few moments to start moving. 

I want him to want to do it. all the time. whether we are crossing the street, whether there's a dog walking by, whatever is happening around us. 

unachievable? I think I really do have to stop watching videos and that goes for any training videos, this forum included. 
I keep forgetting that people only show the good stuff, no one posts their disasters.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I've got one dog that has always had slow or hover sits, even when in high drive (that actually tends to make it worse). NRMs and not rewarding slow sits doesn't work with him. What worked best was putting a prong collar on backwards, so the leash attaches under his chin, and then when I give the sit command I give a quick correction *forward* using a light leash/line. My theory was that the oppositional reflex from me giving a quick correction forward would encourage him to pull/sit backward. He's never going to have the snappiest sits, but it did work better than any other method (luring, correcting up or back, not rewarding slower sits...).


why forward? won't that make him lay down?

also, I'm already correcting him for some sits and I'm really not liking it 
but at the same time I can't let him get away with taking 5 secs to start moving because then he will always do that


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lalachka said:


> I want him to want to do it. all the time. whether we are crossing the street, whether there's a dog walking by, whatever is happening around us.


That's drive. It's genetic. 

This is why people who do dog sports get high drive dogs. A dog that wants to please is a lot easier to train and work with than one that doesn't.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's drive. It's genetic.
> 
> This is why people who do dog sports get high drive dogs. A dog that wants to please is a lot easier to train than one that doesn't.


I've been told by a very good trainer that I have a really good dog because he wants to please

ETA I can believe that when it comes to tugging he just doesn't have the drive to be even close to ME's dogs though I saw a few dogs on his videos that looked as disinterested as mine and he didn't make any comments about the dog being not suitable just showed the owners what to do

but when it comes to training I know for a fact it's me. I suck and I realize it as we train. I'm mentally kicking myself every 5 secs because I did something wrong. also, our sessions are horribly boring. it's not him in this case, I'm sure of it


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I really don't know what to tell you without actually seeing you interact with your dog. It's probably not fair to yourself or your dog to compare what you're doing and what you've got to what michael ellis does. That would be like me getting upset that I can't dunk a basketball like lebron james. It's just not realistic. 

My opinion, and i hope this doesn't offend you, is that it's probably a combination of both you and your dog. You don't really know what you're doing and your dog probably doesn't have "it" either. Especially when trying to emulate someone like michael ellis and his dogs. 

Keep working with your dog and outside trainers if you've found some good ones. And as someone said earlier, don't expect the honda to drive like a ferrari. Work with what you've got and do the best you can.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

no, it doesn't offend me. I know I suck and I know he's from a puppy mill. but i was hoping I can teach him to sit. and a few other things.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm looking for a good trainer who's easily accessible. the reason I'm so stuck on ME is because he's all about making sure the dog wants to work
my trainer is really good (far and not easily accessible though schedule wise) but he doesn't care that much about what the dog wants. do you know what I mean? like he does to an extent but not like ME. 

he wouldn't be wondering why the dog is taking long, he'd correct and that's what I've been doing.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

You can teach him things. There's no reason why he can't do anything the average pet can do and more. 

I'm just saying don't get upset or frustrated when you're not getting the type of results you see from these videos you're watching. Work with the dog you've got in front of you.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> You can teach him things. There's no reason why he can't do anything the average pet can do and more.
> 
> I'm just saying don't get upset or frustrated when you're not getting the type of results you see from these videos you're watching. Work with the dog you've got in front of you.


ok))))) I will try. 
I feel bad correcting for not sitting. that's why I'm posting


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lalachka said:


> he wouldn't be wondering why the dog is taking long, he'd correct and that's what I've been doing.


Do that enough times and the dog may shut down instead of seeing the results you're looking for. With a dog like you're describing, i'd rather keep training short and fun instead of correct, correct, correct. But that's me.


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## Psalm 23 (Jul 7, 2014)

Have you tried some variable reinforcement? I.e if he gives slow-mo sits then mark with your negative marker and walk away/ignore for at least 15 seconds, then give him another chance to offer the behavior- if too slow again I would give a very small amount of praise but save the high value reward for the rapid sit. Keep resetting your position and negative marking until he gives you what you want, then Jackpot! HUGE praise and multiple treats (assuming normally he gets one at a time). I believe they recognize the variable response to their behavior. 

Additionally, I would like to suggest you not be so hard on yourself lala. You obviously care greatly for this dog or else you would not be on this forum nor watching me/Ivan videos. There is a lot to learn and your thirst for knowledge should be a nurtured, not self deprecating as you come across the answers. Keep up the good work and try to focus on improving every session, not just getting to the end result, that way every session is rewarding for the both of you


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Do that enough times and the dog may shut down instead of seeing the results you're looking for. With a dog like you're describing, i'd rather keep training short and fun instead of correct, correct, correct. But that's me.


exactly why I'm here. 
it's not during training that this usually happens. this is during walks. during training he's good. 

but once we are walking and I told him to sit and he didn't - what choice do i have? let it go? then he will listen when he wants to


i do try keeping sessions fun. I don't know if it works lol buy he looks like he's enjoying it most of the time.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What's going on during the walk when you ask him to sit and he doesn't listen? Are you alone and no one's near? Is he focused on another dog across the street? 

How is his eye contact with you? Is he staring in your eyes as you're giving commands? Have you worked on eye contact with him before? Do you have a command for the dog to focus on you? A dog that isn't focused on you is not going to listen with distractions around.

The dog is focused on you during the training because gets the routine. When you're training and he's listening, bring him for a short walk during in the middle of it. Bring the training outside to different environments. Keep it short at first.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> why forward? won't that make him lay down?
> 
> also, I'm already correcting him for some sits and I'm really not liking it
> but at the same time I can't let him get away with taking 5 secs to start moving because then he will always do that


Like I said, the oppositional reflex makes his butt go down faster. No, he does not lay down. It may or may not work, just throwing it out there. Other more common techniques did not work for my dog, but as I admitted, his sits will never be instant. If I intended to continue titling and competing with him in an obedience venue, then I would be more picky and probably employing more -R to make it happen.

If a dog already has a habit of doing a behavior "wrong" (what humans think is not correct), I find that withholding rewards or even correcting the bad ones don't really work, if the dog doesn't clearly understand what you want and you aren't "reinforcing" (in the scientific meaning of the term) the correct behavior. Depending on what you want and why (is this for competition?), I would start over and make the sits happen correctly so they are always rewarded when they do. I would not let the dog continue to do it wrong even if he's getting corrected (+P or -P) for it because those don't reinforce the actual behavior you want.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I sent you a PM with an example.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I just replied. that's not a slow sit lolol. but i see what you're doing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Psalm 23 said:


> Have you tried some variable reinforcement? I.e if he gives slow-mo sits then mark with your negative marker and walk away/ignore for at least 15 seconds, then give him another chance to offer the behavior- if too slow again I would give a very small amount of praise but save the high value reward for the rapid sit. Keep resetting your position and negative marking until he gives you what you want, then Jackpot! HUGE praise and multiple treats (assuming normally he gets one at a time). I believe they recognize the variable response to their behavior.
> 
> Additionally, I would like to suggest you not be so hard on yourself lala. You obviously care greatly for this dog or else you would not be on this forum nor watching me/Ivan videos. There is a lot to learn and your thirst for knowledge should be a nurtured, not self deprecating as you come across the answers. Keep up the good work and try to focus on improving every session, not just getting to the end result, that way every session is rewarding for the both of you


I am self deprecating lol. I like laughing at myself. makes things easier and fun

as far as sit, nope, I haven't tried this but I will. I have an idea what I'm doing wrong after reading the thread. 
not marking the right moment (butt hits the floor), rewarding the sloppy ones and not proofing for distractions enough. I will try thank you)))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> What's going on during the walk when you ask him to sit and he doesn't listen? Are you alone and no one's near? Is he focused on another dog across the street?
> 
> How is his eye contact with you? Is he staring in your eyes as you're giving commands? Have you worked on eye contact with him before? Do you have a command for the dog to focus on you? A dog that isn't focused on you is not going to listen with distractions around.
> 
> The dog is focused on you during the training because gets the routine. When you're training and he's listening, bring him for a short walk during in the middle of it. Bring the training outside to different environments. Keep it short at first.


yeah, there are things like dogs, or people, or cars so I'm sure he just doesn't feel safe to sit. or wants to get somewhere really bad. there are def reasons for it. 

his eye contact is ok. I can have it for a few secs but not on command. I will work on a focus command. how do I use it once I have it? and how do I proof for distractions so that he listens no matter what. 

sometimes when giving commands *i* am not looking at him. but i thought that didn't matter.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Start from scratch. Start in the house without any distractions. When he looks at you, click and treat. Keep doing it over and over and over. Make sure you're precise in your clicks so you're marking the exact moment he makes eye contact with you. After a while, work in the "look" command or whatever you want to call it. Don't even bother working in the sits and downs. It should be all about eye contact and focus. He'll get it, but you're going to have to work on it.

When he starts getting it, work on him holding the eye contact for a few seconds instead of just an immediate look. Then click and reward. When he starts getting that, move outdoors and work on it. Sit on a park bench with no one around with a bag of treats. When he gives you eye focus, click and reward. Keep moving up in terms of distractions. Good eye contact = focus.

Once your dog learns to focus on you, it will be easier to give the commands. A dog focused on the kids running down the street probably doesn't even hear you say "sit" over and over. A dog focused on you and making good eye contact will hear and hopefully listen to what you're saying a lot more consistently.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

thank you so much!!!!! will do as you said. 
I skipped many steps and it's showing now.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Eye contact and focus is the first thing I work on with a puppy. I teach it before sit. It's the most important thing for a dog to know and understand, in my opinion.

Good luck.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lucy Dog said:


> Eye contact and focus is the first thing I work on with a puppy. I teach it before sit. It's the most important thing for a dog to know and understand, in my opinion.


:thumbup: You can't teach your dog anything unless you first have his attention. It's basic foundation work, from which everything else will follow. I train it the way Lucy Dog does, "capturing" eye contact offered spontaneously by marking and rewarding to make it a strong default behavior and then adding a cue later. I do this every day from the time I bring home a new puppy. 



Lucy Dog said:


> I'm just saying don't get upset or frustrated when you're not [*instantly*] getting the type of results you see from these videos you're watching.


I added the word in bold.  There's a pattern to these questions, and you've admitted that you try something briefly and then give up if it doesn't work right away. The trainers you're watching in the videos are getting those results because #1 - They know what they're doing and they're highly experienced. You're not, so it's unrealistic to compare your results to theirs. #2 - They start early, which you haven't. But just because you missed that boat doesn't mean you can't start now and get good results, it just means it may take you longer, which it would anyway because you're inexperienced.

Everybody starts somewhere. Everybody was inexperienced at one time, even them. You try stuff and you learn stuff, but you need to commit to some time and effort before getting frustrated and giving up. Everybody who is good at anything makes it look easy, but what you're seeing is the end result, not the work they did to get there.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok I'm going to probably ask a dumb question,,WHY do you need and/or want him to sit fast? I could see if you were going into competition but I don't think you are right?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok I'm going to probably ask a dumb question,,WHY do you need and/or want him to sit fast? I could see if you were going into competition but I don't think you are right?


no I'm not. I didn't describe it right. this isn't about speed, this is about him borderline not doing it. I saw what lies considers a slow sit and I'd be happy with that and even slower. 
as long as it doesn't take him 2 seconds to start sitting and another 3 to finish the sit. actually at that point he's only finishing because he knows he will get popped if he doesn't. 

this is only sometimes


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Are we fading the rewards as we train? Vary rewarding, start expecting more tricks per treats, etc. If he's always guessing whats next, he won't get as distracted.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thumbup: You can't teach your dog anything unless you first have his attention. It's basic foundation work, from which everything else will follow. I train it the way Lucy Dog does, "capturing" eye contact offered spontaneously by marking and rewarding to make it a strong default behavior and then adding a cue later. I do this every day from the time I bring home a new puppy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah I know I can't so I've been trying to find ways to keep his attention outside. that's where videos come in and the tugs and the food games. 
I try to follow ME's way and I stumble at every step. 

yep you're right. that's why I'm asking these questions about goals and what's achievable
about committing. I can commit but when day after day I don't get results I start thinking I did something wrong. 

I wanted to teach down from a stand. I don't know how many we've done by now. 1000? still, if i say down and don't lure at least a little he will sit and then down. 

lol this would be funny if it wasn't sad


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I've got one dog that has always had slow or hover sits, even when in high drive (that actually tends to make it worse). NRMs and not rewarding slow sits doesn't work with him. What worked best was putting a prong collar on backwards, so the leash attaches under his chin, and then when I give the sit command I give a quick correction *forward* using a light leash/line. My theory was that the oppositional reflex from me giving a quick correction forward would encourage him to pull/sit backward. He's never going to have the snappiest sits, but it did work better than any other method (luring, correcting up or back, not rewarding slower sits...).


I've been trying to figure this out Liesje. I'm not so sure this has anything to do with opposition reflex? More like a good use of old fashioned escape/avoidance? Is there something more too it? Trying to pull him away or off a target or touch pad or something?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ApselBear said:


> Are we fading the rewards as we train? Vary rewarding, start expecting more tricks per treats, etc. If he's always guessing whats next, he won't get as distracted.


Lol not even close. actually good point. he gets way too many treats and I reward even if it's half assed because I feel like he tried and maybe he doesn't know what I want. and he did sit though it was 5 mins later and crooked. 

yeah good point. why work if she will give it anyway. 

thank you))))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I've been trying to figure this out Liesje. I'm not so sure this has anything to do with opposition reflex? More like a good use of old fashioned escape/avoidance? Is there something more too it? Trying to pull him away or off a target or touch pad or something?


I'm trying to get rid of opposition reflex with leash pressure, no?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I guess, in some ways. I'm just trying to figure how to use it for faster sit. Opposition reflex is fighting against. I understand using it for somethings like holding a sit, I just think I'm missing one piece or something for it helping with the sit itself.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Lol not even close. actually good point. he gets way too many treats and I reward even if it's half assed because I feel like he tried and maybe he doesn't know what I want. and he did sit though it was 5 mins later and crooked.
> 
> yeah good point. why work if she will give it anyway.
> 
> thank you))))))


Good luck and have patience! 

Another point, and you probably aren't as bad at this as I am, absolutely be 110% happy when you are working with him. Note I didn't say excited, just happy. Excitement can lead to distraction in some dogs. You can erupt with excitement when he's slamming that rear on the ground, but the main thing is be happy. One, it will keep him relaxed, but two, this is why you are "working" with him. You want to enjoy your dog and have a good time. Don't let frustration seep in, training may just take some time and effort, but you two will get there.

I was reading David Winners' story about his experience with his partner Fama in MWD training. He briefly mentions the reward system they used, but it involves everyone in the building erupting in applause and congrats towards the dog(I hope I remember correctly, or David can chime in and alpha roll me into shape). The dog feels like it has just won the lottery will all the exciting praise and realizes it has done a good job. Now I'm saying this translates directly to into everyday training. But it should give you an idea of what the dog will need to help with fading treats.

Celebrate the small wins(yours and your partner's) that you want, ignore the failures(if we can't get past the failures then maybe proper correction isn't such a bad option).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And then again, Lala, its entirely possible I'm over-thinking some detail thats not important, Lol.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ApselBear said:


> Good luck and have patience!
> 
> Another point, and you probably aren't as bad at this as I am, absolutely be 110% happy when you are working with him. Note I didn't say excited, just happy. Excitement can lead to distraction in some dogs. You can erupt with excitement when he's slamming that rear on the ground, but the main thing is be happy. One, it will keep him relaxed, but two, this is why you are "working" with him. You want to enjoy your dog and have a good time. Don't let frustration seep in, training may just take some time and effort, but you two will get there.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty bad)))))) I was told to stop acting like someone died. 

I like that story)))))
I will try watching my demeanor and yeah. it's all for fun. I can go on with the training that he has, I'm able to manage him. so none of this is a must really


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> I've been trying to figure this out Liesje. I'm not so sure this has anything to do with opposition reflex? More like a good use of old fashioned escape/avoidance? Is there something more too it? Trying to pull him away or off a target or touch pad or something?


I'd say maybe a little of both? I'm sure there is always going to be an escape/avoidance component when using a correction this way (and I'm not really correcting him for *not* doing a sit, I actually give the pop at the same time as the command, more like -R). I don't use a really *hard* correction, not as hard as I'd use if, say, my trained and titled dog was blowing off something he knows. However I know he "feels" it b/c in the video I sent Lalachka he flicks his tongue.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I was at a training seminar a couple months back and they used opposition reflex (line pressure) for getting the dog to sit faster on the out of motion.. It was actually interesting to watch.. And the dogs did well with it..


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

G-burg said:


> I was at a training seminar a couple months back and they used opposition reflex (line pressure) for getting the dog to sit faster on the out of motion.. It was actually interesting to watch.. And the dogs did well with it..


Ecollar and second line? Lance Collins?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

couple of very good points , and good on lala for trying herself to learn -- 

someone said "I want him to want to do it. all the time. whether we are crossing the street, whether there's a dog walking by, whatever is happening around us.That's drive. It's genetic"

I would say that is training . Consistent and persistent.

I have watched a few videos that Lala has and her dog goes into a half sit -- lot of air between that butt and the ground -- because she moves off too soon. Fix that by asking for perfection and then let the dog settle . Reward with voice , and food if you need to .

lala said " he gets way too many treats and I reward even if it's half assed " , oh yeah, saw that on one or two of her other videos , dog in the woods . He is nicely behaved there , wanders a bit , then is called in for a treat out of a big full pack (fanny pack?) gets lots of treats and lots of repeats on this "trick" . The dog never goes far , almost reaches a certain time or distance , and then the recall is repeated. 

yes , big celebration to show dog you appreciate what he did , an emotional connection -- not what lala said " I was told to stop acting like someone died" I saw it on the videos - no personal investment or connection .

lala --- let your fun out -- famous words from Kevin the Horse (tv commercial) let your fun out -- let the dog be having fun , and you have fun . Fun is infectious .


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> couple of very good points , and good on lala for trying herself to learn --
> 
> someone said "I want him to want to do it. all the time. whether we are crossing the street, whether there's a dog walking by, whatever is happening around us.That's drive. It's genetic"
> 
> ...


Carmen, gallon zip lock bag lol

thank you for giving me hope. I also think that it's training and consistency. I'm sure that everything I'm seeing is the result of mistakes I made and steps I skipped. 

is it bad that I recalled him all the time? except twice or three times it was because people were coming and I didn't want to take any chances. I let him have fun if that's what you saying. it's just there officially he's not supposed to be off leash though everyone does it and also the fact that he barks sometimes. don't want to scare anyone. 

about rewarding with voice. good boy, right? not using markers because those need to have food follow them, no?

and I will try to be more fun. I know, it looks depressing lol.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Try HAVING more fun Lala. If it isnt fun for you, I don't think you can be more fun just for him. I don't think you can fake it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Try HAVING more fun Lala. If it isnt fun for you, I don't think you can be more fun just for him. I don't think you can fake it.


it is fun when I see some results. when I don't - what's fun about seeing how bad I suck lol?
I know what you're saying. I will try looking at it different. 

we are going out now. my head is blown up from all the advice. let's see what happens


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Take a video


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I did. embarrassed to post lol its that bad. will see about now.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

2014-08-20 Evening Boomer Queens Blvd spot: http://youtu.be/CL4NTWQaqpw


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I wanted to teach down from a stand. I don't know how many we've done by now. 1000? still, if i say down and don't lure at least a little he will sit and then down.


Lure with a treat, or use the lure motion with an empty hand? If you've been working on it all this time with food in your hand, that's part of the problem right there. Also, if he's not doing it right, there's no point in using the "down" command. A basic rule of training is don't name it until the dog is doing it right. I only put it on cue when I have a reasonable expectation that the dog is going to do what I want. In the meantime, I'll just capture it by marking and rewarding when the dog does it spontaneously. 

Usually I've only needed to lure a sit or down _depending on the circumstances_ in the first brief training session or two, and then I'm using the lure motion with an empty hand and rewarding from the other hand. I gradually fade the lure motion to something more subtle, and it becomes my hand signal for that behavior. I get the hand signal consistent before attempting to add a verbal cue, and at first, I'll use the hand signal as a reminder, if necessary. I may even lure with food again briefly if I change the picture by adding difficulty and distractions, such as working outdoors vs in the house. 

How many times does he lay down around the house while you're observing him? Start marking it and tossing a treat whenever he does. If you toss the treat just far enough away that he has to get up to get it, you can simply wait for him to lay down again. Rinse, repeat.Try this for awhile (your marker timing needs to be excellent) and see if he's throwing himself into a down more enthusiastically, without sitting first.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Lure with a treat, or use the lure motion with an empty hand? If you've been working on it all this time with food in your hand, that's part of the problem right there. Also, if he's not doing it right, there's no point in using the "down" command. A basic rule of training is don't name it until the dog is doing it right. I only put it on cue when I have a reasonable expectation that the dog is going to do what I want. In the meantime, I'll just capture it by marking and rewarding when the dog does it spontaneously.
> 
> Usually I've only needed to lure a sit or down _depending on the circumstances_ in the first brief training session or two, and then I'm using the lure motion with an empty hand and rewarding from the other hand. I gradually fade the lure motion to something more subtle, and it becomes my hand signal for that behavior. I get the hand signal consistent before attempting to add a verbal cue, and at first, I'll use the hand signal as a reminder, if necessary. I may even lure with food again briefly if I change the picture by adding difficulty and distractions, such as working outdoors vs in the house.
> 
> How many times does he lay down around the house while you're observing him? Start marking it and tossing a treat whenever he does. If you toss the treat just far enough away that he has to get up to get it, you can simply wait for him to lay down again. Rinse, repeat.Try this for awhile (your marker timing needs to be excellent) and see if he's throwing himself into a down more enthusiastically, without sitting first.


empty hand. 

I named it because with the lure he was doing it right. so I thought the next step was name it, then lure a second later. so did that for a while. 

I will try marking every time he folds into a down. I will also try your way just using the signal without saying it

but I'm already there. I don't get it. it's on video actually. you can see him downing with the lure. 

I will start over but I'm afraid the sit is already ingrained


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Well I can't offer much advice, but hey, I think you and your dog deserve a pat on the back for walking so calmly with all that traffic and people walking around!!! That is Hugh to me!!!! Don't know how you "big city dwellers" make it sometimes!!!! That's not meant in a negative way!!!! Do you live in an apt too? That is dedication!!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with a couple of people. The dog is almost 2 and you are still giving a LOT of treats. Psychology with people and with dogs prove that you get the best results with intermittent rewards. 

I usually phase treats out a lot quicker than other people and rarely use them past basic obedience. I load my praise voice like other people load a clicker and my dogs are generally happy to work for praise. Not all dogs do this though. I think Moofie might be one of them. 

So instead of giving the treat when the butt hits the ground, for slow sits just give him a yes, and another command. For an excellent quick sit in the proper position he gets a yes! and a tidbit. Make him work for those tid bits. It is too easy to get a tid bit every time your butt hits the ground, and BORING. 

So Sit, Down, Come front (sit looks good TidBit) and then Finish and walk quickly, then slowly, and then Down, if that Down is crisp, a tid bit. Keep him guessing and keep him focussed and make it fun, stay in a happy voice. Even if you correct, Eh! then quicky happy voice, With Me, SIT, Yes! 

The reason we train in obedience and rally is to have a well-mannered dog that we can take anywhere, so the dog can live in the world and is easy to take with, obeys simple commands quickly and properly. Yes, I think that what you are training for is the same thing. You want the dog to sit today, not tomorrow. 

Furthermore, if you are going to bother to train, why accept a mediocre response? Why not train it properly, and expect a good performance? Trained is trained whether you are talking about titling or not. 

What I have to ask is, do you talk a lot to your dog while training? What do you say when that butt starts to go down, proceeds slowly, and doesn't hit the ground? Are you repeating commands? What I will say is, ALL THE WAY. Because I am not going to budge until that command has been carried out completely, and no way am I going to reward and slow or crappy sit. And I am not going to repeat the command. 

Give the dog and opportunity to comply and then help him. You can correct or you can run your hand down and up under the back feet or lightly press the waist to get him to put the butt down. I usually point at the butt and say ALL THE WAY. 

If the sit is slow, then it could be because I am giving mixed signals. I might be moving on in my mind and body language to what I expect to do next. The dog might be anticipating my next move. So I need to work on my mechanics. I want to give a consistent, clear signal to the dog. I was to have my praised or treat timed correctly with the best performances. 

Lastly, I do not want to belabor any one thing in any one session. I do not do anything more than three times in a row. We then move on to something else. We may come back to this, maybe a couple of times in half an hour. But we do not want make the dog bored or under-challenged. We want to keep him going at a positive clip. So mix it up. Increase speed, by improving your mechanics, not chattering or nagging the dog, keeping him engaged, and praise and treats for the best performance.

I do not use a lot of corrections. If my dog does not get verbal praise, and we do something over, then they get it that it wasn't right. When we complete the command properly, I will give a YES! or a Good Stand Sit, Whatever they did right.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Lure with a treat, or use the lure motion with an empty hand?





lalachka said:


> empty hand.


I don't consider that a lure, that's a hand signal.  At least that's how I've always thought of it - a lure requires the dog following the reward into position, not getting a reward after complying with the command. If he can do it properly and consistently with a hand signal, he can learn to do it with a voice cue instead. 

I don't know if you read my post in that other thread where you were asking how long it took to train Halo's stay and I posted a link to some old threads where I had discussed in detail what she was learning at what age, but in one of them I mentioned her graduation from Puppy 2 class at a few days before she turned 6 months old. One of the things we were tested on was a sit/down/sit/stand/down/stand sequence, both with a verbal cue and no hand signal, and with hand signals and no verbal cues. I worked with her every day while we were in class, but she passed with flying colors. In fact, the trainer said it was the best she'd ever seen and she wished she had it on video.

Again, it requires patience on your part, you have to give him time to work it out. BTW, I was at work when I posted previously, haven't watched the video yet.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

readaboutdogs said:


> Well I can't offer much advice, but hey, I think you and your dog deserve a pat on the back for walking so calmly with all that traffic and people walking around!!! That is Hugh to me!!!! Don't know how you "big city dwellers" make it sometimes!!!! That's not meant in a negative way!!!! Do you live in an apt too? That is dedication!!!!


Lol yeah I live around the block from there and yes, in an apartment))))))

yeah I think it's cool he can concentrate on me with all that stuff and considering hes reactive but first of all, we live there, so of course he's used to it and second, from what I read here flyball is 100 times more intense and many dogs from here do it. 

but thank you)))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer, i don't repeat commands. maybe once in a blue but I really try not to. if it's a known command then he's corrected for non compliance. if it isn't then I lure him into it

I don't like using additional words like all the way because he will then not sit until I say all the way. after a while he will catch on that sit doesn't mean sit until I say all the way. 

I'm actually having this problem with screaming now. like I've been raising my voice a lot when he goes for something he's not supposed to or messes with my cat or about to do something I don't want. I need it stopped urgently so I scream and he listens. so unfortunately he's now getting the idea that he should only listen when I scream. 

I do talk to him and that's confusing to him, too many words. working on myself. also yes, my body awareness is not good and I'm confusing him a lot. so I have lots to work on.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

CM, yes I read your response in that thread and at least one thread linked. I then saw something useful in there, went to try it out and never went back to read the rest. 

hmm, so if my hand doesn't have food then it's a signal? even though I'm luring him with my body?

I will keep going, I'm not giving up on this one lol and I will try marking every down whenever he does it on his own. 

and you sound like your dog has everything down perfect)))))) This is when I start getting the complexes


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My dogs are far from perfect! :rofl: But I put TONS of time and effort in starting right at the beginning, through the first few months and beyond, and it makes a difference. Each dog I get teaches me more, and with each dog I get, I apply everything I've learned so far and adjust for mistakes I made with the previous dogs. I already know some different ways I'll train my next dog, based on stuff I wish I'd done earlier with Halo, and that dog is probably years away. 

As far as I'm concerned, what you're doing is a hand signal, not a lure. I'd be interested in hearing what other people think though.

Read this: Advanced Dog Training Methods: How to Fade Prompts and Lures - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Lala, I thinks its mostly that he isnt ready yet for you to combine all these different things together. All your gestures, or physical cues blur together and, I think just end up being confusing for him.

If you spend more time just teaching the sit, the down, the focus, in separate sessions till you can get rid of most of the luring/cues etc.. I think you'll get what you want.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Lala, I thinks its mostly that he isnt ready yet for you to combine all these different things together. All your gestures, or physical cues blur together and, I think just end up being confusing for him.
> 
> If you spend more time just teaching the sit, the down, the focus, in separate sessions till you can get rid of most of the luring/cues etc.. I think you'll get what you want.


I tried just doing 10 downs in a row. then I was told that this is boring and to mix it up. 

but i agree. I don't think he understand me. I do think he tries


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

He's really trying. Some one told you he wants to work for you, right? I think so. You don't have to drill 10 downs in a row if you lose his interest at 8. Do enough to let it be clear to him, then play for 20mins. He'll enjoy that.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> He's really trying. Some one told you he wants to work for you, right? I think so. You don't have to drill 10 downs in a row if you lose his interest at 8. Do enough to let it be clear to him, then play for 20mins. He'll enjoy that.


Lol simple stuff but I need to be told it. thank you))))


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> how to get him to sit fast and also sometimes he does this slow motion sit and the butt doesn't hit the floor until he's sure he must sit
> probably something I did
> 
> also, sits stand and down in motion. how's is that taught. is there a diff method other than getting him to sit while I'm walking slow, then faster, then faster
> ...


Assuming the dog has been properly trained and truly understands the commands,

there is no doubt the e-collar is the fastest "no nonsense" route to amazing results.

I think training from both ends is the most effective over all method, a positive response = reward and or praise, a negative response = a correction.

I would also recommend teaching hand signals in conjunction with all the basic commands.

Whether the dog is in park, drive or reverse, they need to sharply respond to all commands.

It ain't rocket science, I would venture to guess if done right you could have your dog smoking

within a week or less. For some reason I assumed you were way past all this.........


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> Assuming the dog has been properly trained and truly understands the commands,
> 
> there is no doubt the e-collar is the fastest "no nonsense" route to amazing results.
> 
> ...


I don't like the idea of using the ecollar to speed up commands. 

you thought I was past what? sits? my dog is trained enough for me to be able to control him outside. everything I'm doing now is to learn to train. 
I have no doubt I can have him sitting lightening fast in 2 days and without the ecollar. I've seen it done by a trainer and it takes some force but it works and is quick. 
i want to learn to train in a way that's fun for the dog and that's where I'm having problems.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> I have no doubt I can have him sitting lightening fast in 2 days and without the ecollar.


Are you sure about that? What's the point of this thread then? You say you think the dog only sits because it knows it's going to get corrected. I'd love how you could have lightning fast commands in two days. 

I'm not trying to be rude. Just curious.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> Are you sure about that? What's the point of this thread then? You say you think the dog only sits because it knows it's going to get corrected. I'd love how you could have lightning fast commands in two days.
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude. Just curious.


say sit and literally a moment later pop the prong really hard. I did say it was using force. 

after a few days the dog sits the second you say it. that's how I was told to do it by one trainer and his dog sure does whatever he says same second. 

the point of this thread is because I want to learn to train in a way that makes the dog want to work. 

also, it's only some sits that he does the way I described above. most of the time he does it the way I want it.


ETA the reason I believe it would work is because I did it while I was there and already saw a difference. he was pretty stressed, there were a few dogs, those would be the times of the problem sits and he sat quick.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> say sit and literally a moment later pop the prong really hard. I did say it was using force.
> 
> after a few days the dog sits the second you say it. that's how I was told to do it by one trainer and his dog sure does whatever he says same second.
> 
> ...


See now I'm confused. You're all over the place. So now you want to teach commands without corrections? 

At first you wanted dog to do commands chained together with speed. Then you wanted a dog to just do commands with speed all the time. Which is it? 

I only skipped around in the video you posted. Sorry if I missed things but it seemed like you were just walking back and forth doing random things. Didn't seem like you were working on anything in particular. 

If you want your dog to sit with speed and enthusiasm every single time you ask 24/7 then I'm sorry but that's NOT possible. No dog is "on" all the time. Show me a video of Michael Ellis walking his dog down the street and it doing commands just as fast and enthusiastically as it does on the training field. Or is this just some unrealistic expectation that you've put on your own dog?


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## KönigLeupold (Aug 12, 2013)

Although I don't have advice, I will provide solidarity in the slow sit... it's funny to hear someone say that their pup does the same thing. I always think in my head that my pup is saying, "Okayyy... I'll sitz... but... what is coming... what is coming... I don't see anything... not sure if I should continue... oh yeah it's a command I kind of have to" and then plops into a platz because at one point we must have repeated our sitz and then platz too often. ;-)

Good luck!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> See now I'm confused. You're all over the place. So now you want to teach commands without corrections?
> 
> At first you wanted dog to do commands chained together with speed. Then you wanted a dog to just do commands with speed all the time. Which is it?
> 
> ...


oh no, corrections are fine. but yes, I want to learn to train the way he does, where the dogs are excited to work. 

yeah, I think again unrealistic expectations. it's not just his videos though, it's the things I read here too. I'm naive lol, I believe everything I see and read 

lol ok then I will leave my dog alone. but yes I really thought that it's possible to have a dog happily doing things anytime I ask. 

on the video it's heel (not formal), sit and down. also sit out of motion. but I'm sure I'm teaching it wrong


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

KönigLeupold said:


> Although I don't have advice, I will provide solidarity in the slow sit... it's funny to hear someone say that their pup does the same thing. I always think in my head that my pup is saying, "Okayyy... I'll sitz... but... what is coming... what is coming... I don't see anything... not sure if I should continue... oh yeah it's a command I kind of have to" and then plops into a platz because at one point we must have repeated our sitz and then platz too often. ;-)
> 
> Good luck!


Lololol yes, exactly! !!!! and he also downs sometimes instead of sitting.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm behind and need to respond to your last PM! 

I will say that the drive, motivation, joy for work....a lot of that is just the dog. Not all dogs are going to have it, and not all to the extent that everyone might want. I have a dog that will occasionally do obedience for a few minutes with food in his face but other than that, he has no drive or motivation for sport/work. That's just who he is. Of all the training and competing I've done with my GSDs, it's my lazy dog that's my heart dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

KönigLeupold said:


> Although I don't have advice, I will provide solidarity in the slow sit... it's funny to hear someone say that their pup does the same thing.


Me too  

And, this is JMO but if you're interested: I don't have a problem with the slow sit. I'm not doing any competitive OB or anything, so why time the sit? If I ask for sit, I'll get it, there's no rush. It's like pulling out the chair, draping the purse strap over the back, ah yeah, sit down, lol. 

The down is where I care. The down is the command that I use to prevent and enforce what I don't want/want. I know you said you could get a lightning fast sit if you went for it - I go for it with the down. No room for mistakes, and no big long wait either. This also changed his sloppy sit-into-a-down technique that he was working on, lol.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I'm behind and need to respond to your last PM!
> 
> I will say that the drive, motivation, joy for work....a lot of that is just the dog. Not all dogs are going to have it, and not all to the extent that everyone might want. I have a dog that will occasionally do obedience for a few minutes with food in his face but other than that, he has no drive or motivation for sport/work. That's just who he is. Of all the training and competing I've done with my GSDs, it's my lazy dog that's my heart dog.


I love him no matter what he does. I'm obsessed I'd say lol

the reason I'm doing any training is because I want to learn, yes, but really because he looks so beautiful when he's happily eagerly doing things. I love it when he's prancing all proud of himself and when he jumps over stuff he looks so majestic. so really I just want to enjoy seeing him looking eager and beautiful. 

actually, when training, I look at his tail all the time. if it's not wagging I'm not happy. I want him to be happy like the dogs on the field are. 
a trainer told me he wants to please. so I'm sure I can get him there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Are you interested in anything other than traditional obedience? My young dog has done almost zero obedience (he knows sit, down, shake, and speak...he doesn't even really have a reliable stay). He's got a different temperament than his father and doing a lot of obedience early on was not going to work with him. He loves sports though and is already training for three different sports and I am starting agility this weekend. That is where he shines.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Are you interested in anything other than traditional obedience? My young dog has done almost zero obedience (he knows sit, down, shake, and speak...he doesn't even really have a reliable stay). He's got a different temperament than his father and doing a lot of obedience early on was not going to work with him. He loves sports though and is already training for three different sports and I am starting agility this weekend. That is where he shines.


yeah I remember)))))
I'd love sports but he's pretty heavy, like 90, maybe a little over really skinny and every time he jumps my heart also jumps. I'm always worried he will hurt himself. 

that's the reason I stopped frisbee, that's why I don't ask him to jump over stuff as much as I'd like. maybe my fears my unfounded. 

he's really fast though, when he runs it's breathtaking to watch. so I'd love it but I'd be scared to.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Me too
> 
> And, this is JMO but if you're interested: I don't have a problem with the slow sit. I'm not doing any competitive OB or anything, so why time the sit? If I ask for sit, I'll get it, there's no rush. It's like pulling out the chair, draping the purse strap over the back, ah yeah, sit down, lol.
> 
> The down is where I care. The down is the command that I use to prevent and enforce what I don't want/want. I know you said you could get a lightning fast sit if you went for it - I go for it with the down. No room for mistakes, and no big long wait either. This also changed his sloppy sit-into-a-down technique that he was working on, lol.


I'm not timing it lol
this is what happens. we are walking through a crowded place and need to cross the street. I tell him to sit, too many people for him to wander even 2 feet. 
so I say sit and then look to see if he sat. and look, and look and he sees that I'm looking so he starts to do the inch an hour move. if I turn my head because I figured he started to sit so he will sit then he will hold his butt in the air or just stands back up

I've never timed a sit lol its just an obvious slow motion not obedient slow sit

I know he doesn't want to sit. he's probably uncomfortable. too many people around. so I thought there was a way other than correcting, a way where he's always eager. 


I read stories and watch videos of the dogs on the field. I'm sure they don't want to do half the things they're doing but they're doing them and their tails are going a mile a second. also I read about a dog that scored really high and it was hot and humid


what makes these dogs want to work like this for no immediate rewatds? that's what I'd like to learn.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

But can you really compare the training field to an area with heavy pedestrian traffic? The field is where all the fun is, but the sidewalk is nothing more than a means to an end. Plus, there must be numerous times where you've asked for a sit, not gotten the sit you wanted, but carried on with the walk - which would reinforce the lousy sit, IMO. If you stayed there, and refused to move forward until you got the sit you wanted, then it might be a different story. But this wouldn't work at the intersection, lol!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> But can you really compare the training field to an area with heavy pedestrian traffic? The field is where all the fun is, but the sidewalk is nothing more than a means to an end. Plus, there must be numerous times where you've asked for a sit, not gotten the sit you wanted, but carried on with the walk - which would reinforce the lousy sit, IMO. If you stayed there, and refused to move forward until you got the sit you wanted, then it might be a different story. But this wouldn't work at the intersection, lol!



Actually this would work. I'm not in a rush, I can skip a few lights. thank you, I won't move on until he gives a good one

do you really think the street is more stressful? I guess I need to see those dogs in real life to get the picture perfect images out of my head. 
I already drew something in my mind and believe it whether it's true or not lol


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, I'd stop with the sit at intersections until you're seeing the sit you want the rest of the time. 

IDK if the street is more "stressful" per se, but it certainly would have more distractions. I bet there are lots of dogs that excel on the field (where they know the routine, and have lots of training and experience) that would do crappy in the middle of a crowd. I could be wrong.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> I read stories and watch videos of the dogs on the field. I'm sure they don't want to do half the things they're doing but they're doing them and their tails are going a mile a second. also I read about a dog that scored really high and it was hot and humid
> 
> 
> what makes these dogs want to work like this for no immediate rewatds? that's what I'd like to learn.


No wonder your threads always get so long. You just read things you want to believe about your dog and skip everything else. Let me repeat what has been said numerous times in this thread, it's genetic! Some dogs love the work and push their handler for the work. You need to figure out how long your dog can sustain it's drive and stop before you lose the dog. Some dogs can be like that for a long time. Other dogs get excited for fetch for a couple minutes and then their drive drops. 

Just because a dogs tail isn't wagging super fast doesn't mean it's not happy or having fun. You can't just look at the tail. You have to look at the overall dog. Some dogs have their full concentration on the task at hand and are intensely focused on it. Doesn't mean the dog isn't happy, just means it's focused. 

Would you say my dog isn't happy because his tail isn't wagging 100 mph? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=XtvuYRXh9TA


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> No wonder your threads always get so long. You just read things you want to believe about your dog and skip everything else. Let me repeat what has been said numerous times in this thread, it's genetic! Some dogs love the work and push their handler for the work. You need to figure out how long your dog can sustain it's drive and stop before you lose the dog. Some dogs can be like that for a long time. Other dogs get excited for fetch for a couple minutes and then their drive drops.
> 
> Just because a dogs tail isn't wagging super fast doesn't mean it's not happy or having fun. You can't just look at the tail. You have to look at the overall dog. Some dogs have their full concentration on the task at hand and are intensely focused on it. Doesn't mean the dog isn't happy, just means it's focused.
> 
> ...


Nice sandals. I'll bet helpers don't like him. Looks too aggressive.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Omg simba? I knew this guy reminded me of someone

Anyway, you will never understand why my threads get long.
Also, what I'm reading is other people bragging about their dogs, no one talks about the bad things they do. So yeah I start to wonder what's wrong with mine

About genetics. It might be genetic but there's also lots of human work involved. If ME had my dog he'd look much better, and if I had ME's dog he'd suck. 

Maybe my dog doesn't have the best genetics but I know for a fact that I don't know how to train and how to read him. I know for a fact he can be much better trained and happy in the process. I know that because I see glimpses of it sometimes. 

Even if he's pushing me I wouldn't know because I don't know what to look for. He does many things that puzzle me. Also, until someone pointed some stuff out and explained what it means I missed it for months. 

I'm starting to get annoyed. I'd love to see people's first dog (preferably GSD being the first) ever after 2 years of having them. The training, the behaviour outside, lack of reactivity (it seems all new owners have it) and of course all the while living in the city with no yard where I can't wait until he's 5 months old to teach leash pressure as ME suggests because I have to walk him these 3 months and I can't avoid other dogs by not going out because he needs bathroom and exercise. And I have one issue after another and they take time. 

Maybe it's me. When someone needs help I go all out. Even if they're really dumb and ask a million questions. Actually, if I know the answers then I enjoy helping even more. It's like taking a test in school. It sucks if you didn't study but fun if you did. 

So the aggression here tells me that most don't know the answers.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Nice sandals. I'll bet helpers don't like him. Looks too aggressive.


Did we watch the same video? I saw the sandals. Where's aggression? I had it muted but didn't see anything 

Also you have a club teaching you GL so get over yourself. It's really easy to train when once or twice a week you have experienced people guiding you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ah, nevermind. Lol.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GL, how old is your dog. Is this your first? 
How many takes for that video?

How many dogs have you messed up before learning to have him sit and stand in rapid succession?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Ah, nevermind. Lol.


I know, I'm sorry. I'm a party pooper


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Ah, nevermind. Lol.


Steve why did you delete that post? I was about to make you look bad. 

I thought you was being sarcastic. You actually came to the conclusion that my dog is aggressive from a 20 second clip?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Also you have a club teaching you GL so get over yourself. It's really easy to train when once or twice a week you have experienced people guiding you.


ETA: Never mind.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I was being sarcastic. I havent come to any conclusions. Why the multiple identities John? Why not just be honest?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Xxx


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

To be honest he's actually crazy. I had to make sure no one was outside before I recorded that video. Had to do about 20 retakes. That's why he is so tired and his tongue was hanging sideways. I also just took the ecollar off. Can't you see all those calming signals he's throwing off? 

Lala this is my 15th dog. It takes that long to teach a dog to do simple things like sit down stand etc 

I would take a video of him doing obedience around distractions and stuff but umm my camera is broke?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you want a dog being twitchy fast for commands you should get one bred for it naturally. Also get a mal not a gsd.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> To be honest he's actually crazy. I had to make sure no one was outside before I recorded that video. Had to do about 20 retakes. That's why he is so tired and his tongue was hanging sideways. I also just took the ecollar off. Can't you see all those calming signals he's throwing off?
> 
> Lala this is my 15th dog. It takes that long to teach a dog to do simple things like sit down stand etc
> 
> I would take a video of him doing obedience around distractions and stuff but umm my camera is broke?


Remember your doggie guarding against you? Mine never does, I can stick my hand down his throat and take whatever I want out. 
So this means what? I'm better than you? My dog is better than yours?
Also, at the very least this is your second dog.

And yes, It doesn't take long to teach a dog, it takes long to learn to teach it so it doesn't take long. 


But it's ok, I got it. You're an amazing trainer, you got an amazing dog, you know it all and I can never dream to get to where you are. You also were born with this talent and did it all on your own. Just amazing overall.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I have to agree with gib some, I don't think you're properly listening. 

There's a lot going on here. And my head kind of hurts from reading it all haha.

First off, you're confused, I'm confused, km SURE your dog is confused. Stop. Take a step back. I think one of the most important things people forget is basics. Always go back to the basics. My trainer has a 6 year old ipo3 dog he's training for nationals and he still works on the very basics of heel, sits, downs, etc... as if the dog was just learning the behaviors. To clean everything.

You've said so yourself your dog doesnt seem to have sit down 100%. Therefor NOTHING else should be worked on. If he's not sitting clean, you can't start building speed. You can't add distractions. You can't add motion.

Also do you use a narker? Ours is "yes". It makes it instantly clear to the dog when a desired behavior has been performed. It should obviously start with treats but then tapered off. Reward solid sits. Correct for sits that aren't good (your dog should have a verbal correction, "no", that he'll self correct with). A pop on a leash could be a correction as well.

Training sessions should be SHORT. Only 5 minutes or so. And for now, while your dog is still dirty on his behaviors, only work on 1 thing at a time. Heeling one session. Sits in another. Down in another. Again if your dog doesnt have a clean down or sit don't even think about starting motion work. Just going to confuse and dirty him.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Speed is largely drive. Some dogs have it. Some dogs dont. But it's what handlers do that makes a difference. Your dog doesnt sound like he has a ton of drive, or at least not drive you've properly built up. There is a reason, for the first 6-7 months of berlins life, I really worked on no obedience, and all we did was play, work on the tug, flirt pole, reward for eye contact, focus, etc. Building drive, building a relationship, teaching proper play. THEN obedience slowly started being added in. Berlin is a sport dog though. I've always said if he was solely a pet his training would of been different. Your dog looks like he has a decent idea. Trust me, I work with a ton of pet dogs that know NOTHING. Your dog looks like a decently trained pet. Don't beat yourself up because he's not a sharp 4,000$ selectively bred sport malinois that most of us would HATE to own as a pet.

I as well don't get the aggression comment on that dog? No he's not the best I've ever seen. He's not the worst. He's a decent average sport dog I would say. Good focus, he's eager, heel positioning could use some work in the corners (basics!) But overall a decent little demo video. 

I could post obedience videos of my first gsd at 3. Or obedience videos of my first working line sport dog at a year and a half. But what would that accomplish? Really the difference between my dogs and yours is that I absorbed information and listened to EVERYTHING instead of simply arguing with advice.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> I have to agree with gib some, I don't think you're properly listening.
> 
> There's a lot going on here. And my head kind of hurts from reading it all haha.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much. All of it is helpful and I do start over a lot that's why I didn't get far. It all comes down to not having a solid foundation to build on. When I try building it's not working. I can't get him excited enough that he will zone out everything else. I can do it at home but there's no space at home. Outside I get his focus but not enough. 

Also I think I'm starting to understand my problem. In training sessions I almost never get bad sits. Its while going about life is when it happens. So I'm not sure what to do when it happens. I already gave a command, he's either not doing it right away (I should see some movement right away) or doing it in slow motion. So I have to correct at that point because otherwise he's getting away with not listening. 

So I'm trying to learn how to make him sit outside of training when he's obviously uncomfortable, dogs near by, cars, people. 

I do use markers, I try to follow ME style. Our sessions are short. 
And I will stick to one thing a session (Steve also suggested it) 
Thank you. Lots of good stuff


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I as well don't get the aggression comment on that dog?


Its just an obscure, inside joke having a little fun at Gib's expense.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

lalachka said:


> But it's ok, I got it. You're an amazing trainer, you got an amazing dog, you know it all and I can never dream to get to where you are. You also were born with this talent and did it all on your own. Just amazing overall.


How you got any of that from anything I've posted (basically doing nothing but explain things to you) I have no idea. 

But point taken. I'll stay out of your threads.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Baillif said:


> If you want a dog being twitchy fast for commands you should get one bred for it naturally. Also get a mal not a gsd.


I mistitled the thread. Its him taking too long to start sitting or sitting in slow motion. It's only sometimes and usually when he's not comfortable. He gives me good sits all the other times so I'm ok with his drive


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> How you got any of that from anything I've posted (basically doing nothing but explain things to you) I have no idea.
> 
> But point taken. I'll stay out of your threads.


It's your arrogance. 
Someone at some point was patient enough to teach you things without making you feel stupid in the process. Pay it forward. Or stay out.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Try to slowly add in distractions. Obviously hard with living in a big city. If he's consistently being clean in training it means he gets it. High reward for doing it with people and distractions for now give him 20 treats in a row. As far as I'm concerned he's still learning right now therefor no reason to wean off reward yet. As he gets better implement corrections. Once he's cleanly sat in a crowd a few times, you know he knows what's expected. Command, pop on leash for not doing it, the second he does sit FIRMLY on the ground, mark and high reward. Only once that is going well start weaning off treats.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> How you got any of that from anything I've posted (basically doing nothing but explain things to you) I have no idea.
> 
> But point taken. I'll stay out of your threads.


Oh no. How will Lala ever get by??? Can you ever get over this loss, Lala?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Speed is largely drive. Some dogs have it. Some dogs dont. But it's what handlers do that makes a difference. Your dog doesnt sound like he has a ton of drive, or at least not drive you've properly built up. There is a reason, for the first 6-7 months of berlins life, I really worked on no obedience, and all we did was play, work on the tug, flirt pole, reward for eye contact, focus, etc. Building drive, building a relationship, teaching proper play. THEN obedience slowly started being added in. Berlin is a sport dog though. I've always said if he was solely a pet his training would of been different. Your dog looks like he has a decent idea. Trust me, I work with a ton of pet dogs that know NOTHING. Your dog looks like a decently trained pet. Don't beat yourself up because he's not a sharp 4,000$ selectively bred sport malinois that most of us would HATE to own as a pet.
> 
> I as well don't get the aggression comment on that dog? No he's not the best I've ever seen. He's not the worst. He's a decent average sport dog I would say. Good focus, he's eager, heel positioning could use some work in the corners (basics!) But overall a decent little demo video.
> 
> I could post obedience videos of my first gsd at 3. Or obedience videos of my first working line sport dog at a year and a half. But what would that accomplish? Really the difference between my dogs and yours is that I absorbed information and listened to EVERYTHING instead of simply arguing with advice.


You don't need to post anything. You're not beating up on me, you're explaining things without being rude about it. 
I was saying this to people that act like they know it all and are being rude and condescending. 

I've never lived with a dog. I also live in a crowded city with no yard so I'm forced to deal with some things. I spent lots of time and energy on reactivity. I couldn't do it at my pace and set him up for success. Many dogs live in my building and on my block so we had setbacks every day. And it took months to learn to read him a little, also took months to decide about him not being around other dogs, then also decide on training styles. Basically I'm learning as I go, flop between things until I decide which I like. 

So it's kind of low to taunt me about how fast it takes to teach a dog to sit reliably when you have the benefit of a club, yard and most of all experience. ME admits to messing up a few dogs. I'm sure everyone has. If I had a pup today I'd do so much different. But it took me months to learn these things and in the process my dog was building habits that are now need to be broken. So again, takes time when I could've avoided it to begin with. 

I'm not arguing with advice and I'm always trying everything that was suggested. That wasn't advice I was arguing with. 


Yep,exactly. I didn't build that foundation. We have a really good relationship but I didn't build on his drive and didn't do many things that would make things easier today . Most of my energy went into reactivity. Now that it's under control I'm putting it into training. 

I like those eager dogs, I love the way my dog looks when he's eager and I hate seeing him stressed out. I was hoping I can transfer the training into real life and have him be happy sitting on the sidewalk even though it's a stressful environment 

I'm looking to find a way to make him want to work all the time. 
One of ME's videos had a part where he told him to down after some demo and he went on talking. His dog stayed in the perfect down (didn't slouch over) in the heat staring at him for 5 minutes or maybe longer. He looked happy and eager. 

Yes I know I know, don't compare. But I want to strive for that.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Try to slowly add in distractions. Obviously hard with living in a big city. If he's consistently being clean in training it means he gets it. High reward for doing it with people and distractions for now give him 20 treats in a row. As far as I'm concerned he's still learning right now therefor no reason to wean off reward yet. As he gets better implement corrections. Once he's cleanly sat in a crowd a few times, you know he knows what's expected. Command, pop on leash for not doing it, the second he does sit FIRMLY on the ground, mark and high reward. Only once that is going well start weaning off treats.


Thank you so much!!! Why didn't I think of it, it sounds so common sense lol

And also really good point about out of motion. I do tend to skip steps and it always backfires

I'm ok with not weaning off yet, I still reward the sits just not the way you suggested


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Oh no. How will Lala ever get by??? Can you ever get over this loss, Lala?


I don't know, Steve. I guess my dog just won't sit. I have to be strong about it though


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Well it sounds like your dog has some nerve issues. Is skittish. That's temperament and it's likely genetic and it's likely not something you'll ever be able to fully fix. Again the difference between breedings. Same with my old fear aggressive boy. There was no way I could ever fix his fear issues. You have to be happy that obedience can be proofed in an environment that is very stressful for your dog. Realistic a dog with nerve issues will likely never be happy and content in a high stress environment with crowds and lots of distraction. So just be happy you can get obedience out of that and don't expect a sport dog mentality on a schutzhund field


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My trainers malinois could go into any situation, do perfect obedience, and look thrilled the entire time. Because he's loving it. That's a well bred, stable, sound dog. Not a reactive dog with some fear/nerve issues influencing his behavior


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Well it sounds like your dog has some nerve issues. Is skittish. That's temperament and it's likely genetic and it's likely not something you'll ever be able to fully fix. Again the difference between breedings. Same with my old fear aggressive boy. There was no way I could ever fix his fear issues. You have to be happy that obedience can be proofed in an environment that is very stressful for your dog. Realistic a dog with nerve issues will likely never be happy and content in a high stress environment with crowds and lots of distraction. So just be happy you can get obedience out of that and don't expect a sport dog mentality on a schutzhund field


He does and he's scared of buses and some other things. He recovers instantly but gets scared nonetheless 

So him listening to me in that spot is an achievement for us. I'd just like it if he was always like this but I understand that he can only take so much. 

It all comes down to me feeling bad having to correct him for non compliance. I feel like he's being punished for me being inept.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I don't like the idea of using the ecollar to speed up commands.
> 
> you thought I was past what? sits? my dog is trained enough for me to be able to control him outside. everything I'm doing now is to learn to train.
> I have no doubt I can have him sitting lightening fast in 2 days and without the ecollar. I've seen it done by a trainer and it takes some force but it works and is quick.
> i want to learn to train in a way that's fun for the dog and that's where I'm having problems.


 
You seem to be all over the place.

You don't like the e-collar but you have nothing against hard corrections with a prong

to train a dog sit. I don't understand your mindset.

Don't get me wrong, they are both fantastic tools when used right. 

I thought you were way past the basics the way you dish out advice. 

You make a post wanting to know how to improve response time

and then you claim to know how to do it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> You seem to be all over the place.
> 
> You don't like the e-collar but you have nothing against hard corrections with a prong
> 
> ...


I explained it in the post you quoted. I know how to do it with force but I don't want to. I started correcting for not sitting fast enough and I didn't like it so I posted here. 
I want him to want to do it. it's been answered already. 

about me dishing out advice, my dog is trained to an extent and I did solve a few problems. I can help others solve theirs. if I say something wrong then correct it.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

lalachka said:


> He does and he's scared of buses and some other things. He recovers instantly but gets scared nonetheless
> 
> So him listening to me in that spot is an achievement for us. I'd just like it if he was always like this but I understand that he can only take so much.
> 
> It all comes down to me feeling bad having to correct him for non compliance. I feel like he's being punished for me being inept.


You're only inept if he doesn't know how to sit. If he knows how to sit he needs to be proofed, which often requires correction during distractions to show that breaking is not an option.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

you have no idea how much you helped. yeah its been said by others many times over but you found a way to click it for me. it comes down to his nerves and him not being eager to comply in some situations. so I accepted it and will work around that

thank you for this and everything else. lots of good advice from you and from everyone else. I'm using everything in one way or another. some things said here trigger some other thoughts. so thank you everyone.


also, somehow accepting this made me also accept that he can only do so much. so I will follow Steve's advice and only do what's fun. my next pup will have the drives so if I want to train seriously I can. but i won't stress my doggie and make him do something he can't do


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lol I'm back. my dog is simply amazing, we hung out in the forest and made a couple of cute videos. he's just the most adorable pup I know

anyway, anubis
once you pointed a few things out and I started watching myself I saw what I'm doing wrong. im actually surprised he listens at all. poor thing must be totally confused

I say sit, he sits an hour later, I figured he sat lol and reward
or I say down, he downs crooked and I reward because he's down
or I say sit and he downs and I reward. well, he's not standing lol

I'm not making this up lol, this is our 'training'

so yeah, genetics might play a part when it comes to lightening fast commands (and he might have them, I don't know yet) but genetics aren't the reason my dog isn't trained the way I want it

also, I don't think he has bad genetics. I think he's a really good dog. I will try to use what he has. 


I noticed something else today, it was so cute I wish I'd video it
we were playing ball and he can't concentrate if the ball is near. it's an interesting state of mind. 
so at some point the ball was laying on the floor and I told him to sit. he wouldnt, kept looking at the ball. 
so I backed away and called him. he reluctantly followed all the while looking at the ball 
I said sit and he sat with his back to me facing the ball

that was the funniest thing he's done so far. it was absolutely adorable

anyway, I will post some videos later. it's nothing special, just stuff I record for myself to enjoy later.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

today someone had cheese with them and my dog started to go nuts. so I decided to train with it. omg. lightening fast responses, total concentration, anticipating commands. 

so what does this mean? is there a way to transfer this kind of drive into other times when I don't have cheese?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think your moving to fast , you just figured out the cheese now you want to fade it out.

Over time you 'can' fade it out, but if cheese motivates him right now, USE IT. You don't have to stuff him with cheese, (tiny tiny tiny bits),, SIT , if it's fast enough for you, pop him a bit of cheese, GOOD BOY move on..etc..

Don't just give him cheese for no reason, use it only for training. After awhile, ( and I don't mean a day or even a week, longer)..start varying the reward,,once maybe praise, or a tug, then another time cheese..

When I start clicker training, I 'load' the dog, click treat, click treat, click treat, once the "get' the idea the click means a treat, I start varying the reward,,it might be a tug, it might be a frisbee..etc, it might be just praise..

My shepherds mostly work on praise, Masi especially, she is highly motivated by praise (or a frisbee),,food isnt much her 'thing' for a reward..


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm not good with explaining things lol. I don't want to fade it, I just bought a few lbs))))))) I'm excited to use it. 
But I was asking in terms of the earlier conversation about what's genetic and what's not
I was wondering whether this will at some point transfer into fast obedience or, since he might not be as driven then once the food is gone the speed and eagerness is gone. 

As far as praise. He loves it and loves affection but I will never get that kind of speed just for praise and he looked so adorable that I just have to learn to have him like this all the time)))))


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think you'll know whether , once you fade the food, if the speed and eagerness will still be there..some dogs are highly motivated by something, and once removed lose that motivation, others will transfer when reward is faded, I doubt it has anything to do with genetics but more with training, the dog 'wanting' to please.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't think you'll know whether , once you fade the food, if the speed and eagerness will still be there..some dogs are highly motivated by something, and once removed lose that motivation, others will transfer when reward is faded, I doubt it has anything to do with genetics but more with training, the dog 'wanting' to please.


Thank you, he does want to please I've been told and I also see it. So I will go on and see what happens. 

I also don't believe It's genetics but I might be wrong

On an unrelated note, it's so interesting how hard it is for me (and others from what I see) to accept that my dog has genetic character problems. I'm much more ready to accept that I suck at training. 
I don't understand this. Even if my dog was the best genetic specimen this wouldn't be my accomplishment, it'd be an accomplishment of breeders that bred this line for generations but still, somehow I'm making excuses to no end about his nerves and stuff. 

Just thought it was interesting. I don't understand the logic behind this.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I see the logic  it makes perfect sense to me. I know you have ME on a pedestal - just think of how many thousands of hours he put into working with dogs, before he got to where he is now. Or CM. Or anyone who we've heard about. Nobody drank a magic potion that turned them into an instant dog-channeling communicator. LOL, that would be nice to have, huh? 

I think it's completely reasonable to blame ourselves for our dogs' shortcomings, when we're plodding along and switching up how we train - what we're asking, what we're demanding, how and when we reward/correct them...the poor dogs, how are they supposed to know what we want, lol?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I see the logic  it makes perfect sense to me. I know you have ME on a pedestal - just think of how many thousands of hours he put into working with dogs, before he got to where he is now. Or CM. Or anyone who we've heard about. Nobody drank a magic potion that turned them into an instant dog-channeling communicator. LOL, that would be nice to have, huh?
> 
> I think it's completely reasonable to blame ourselves for our dogs' shortcomings, when we're plodding along and switching up how we train - what we're asking, what we're demanding, how and when we reward/correct them...the poor dogs, how are they supposed to know what we want, lol?


But what about things like nerves. I still catch myself making excuses for my dog. It's still hard for me to say he's a nervebag. Lol I was just about to go into a long tirade explaining why he's not. He's not as bad as some but def has a lower threshold. 

Why do people make excuses to no end instead of accepting the dog has problems. He's been abused by a man so he doesn't like men in hats and umbrellas and long hair and fat and any one that looks like a man or maybe a woman. Lol you know what I mean. 
Or (I've done this lol) they're looking at him and he's taking it as a challenge.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I can't say, because I don't have enough experience watching dogs succeed or fail in their owner's hands. I can only make assumptions - basing them on what I've seen with the rescues I've met, and by making snap character judgments on their owners. Would your dog be a different dog altogether if Baillif owned him? I'm going to say, "Absolutely." Not to criticize you at all, don't take it that way, please! But you have to admit, it seems likely that someone with tons of experience will be able to bring out, or conversely thwart, certain behaviors. That's JMO, but why wouldn't it be the case?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah but I'm already willing to blame myself over my dog and that's my question. 

For example, he shies away from buses. That's probably indicative of his nerves but before that thought even crossed my mind I made the excuse that I did this to him by using the penny can a few times. 

I'm not alone at this, that's why this interests me. 

It seems people are more willing to accept that they're bad owners than the fact that their dogs might have genetic problems.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

And I'm more willing to think that it's the owners too, lol. 
But like the penny can, if you're doing something new all the time, how is the dog supposed to put 2+2 together? That's the bottom line: consistency. They're smart enough to figure us out, if we stick to one thing, and don't confuse them.

My pup shied away from cars. Actually, he lunged at them too. So every single time a car went by, I stopped and made him sit. Yup, I made him sit - I physically restrained him in a sitting position. I'd ask for the sit before the car got near us (lovely rural area, with hardly any traffic to speak of) when he could still focus on the command, and then I'd reward him for the sit, and not allow him to break it when the car went by us. He squirmed, he wanted to go after it, he barked too. But now he ignores them completely because he knows they're not anything to concern himself with. I know that buses are loud, and also can make the ground shake, so that would be more of a challenge - I'm not saying it's a simple thing to get past, just that if you did the same thing _every single time_, it would be easier to deal with.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Also, anubis and cassidys mom and whoever else pointed out I'm rewarding bad reps. Thank you, I got the down from a stand after months of torturing my dog. It's all so simple once mistakes have been pointed out


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> And I'm more willing to think that it's the owners too, lol.
> But like the penny can, if you're doing something new all the time, how is the dog supposed to put 2+2 together? That's the bottom line: consistency. They're smart enough to figure us out, if we stick to one thing, and don't confuse them.
> 
> My pup shied away from cars. Actually, he lunged at them too. So every single time a car went by, I stopped and made him sit. Yup, I made him sit - I physically restrained him in a sitting position. I'd ask for the sit before the car got near us (lovely rural area, with hardly any traffic to speak of) when he could still focus on the command, and then I'd reward him for the sit, and not allow him to break it when the car went by us. He squirmed, he wanted to go after it, he barked too. But now he ignores them completely because he knows they're not anything to concern himself with. I'm know that buses are loud, and also can make the ground shake, so that would be more of a challenge - I'm not saying it's a simple thing to get past, just that if you did the same thing _every single time_, it would be easier to deal with.


You're right about everything but I'm looking at this from a diff angle. 

Lets say someone has a dog that has bad nerves. He really does, genetically. Nothing the owner did brought this on because from what I'm reading a dog is born with nerves and if a dog is confident he will bounce back quickly from anything. 


So you have a dog that barks and lunges 30 times a day. I've done it, I've seen people do it and read about people doing it. Before they come to terms (if they ever do) with the fact that their dog genetically has bad nerves (def not their fault) they go through months of making excuses for the dog, blaming themselves and looking for patterns as if to say that the dog is normal and it's them and the environment that's at fault.


ETA why is the fact that the dog might be nervy so hard for owners to accept? If the dog is a nervebag it's not their fault and if he isn't then it's not their accomplishment 

But all the time people brag about the dog's nerves and make excuses when the nerves are bad. Why???????? Lol this is so interesting to me


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I guess my problem is that I question what a nervebag is, lol. Is it a dog with inconsistent training, that's been self-rewarding for ages, and is enjoying the show? That's what I think. If I was a dog, I'd be barking and lunging and running the fence all day long, because to me that sounds like much more fun than lying down sleeping. If I was out hiking with my owner, then I'd forget all about my bad habits and concentrate on the scents and feces-style snacks I might find along the way, lol. I wouldn't call myself a nervebag or aggressive or anything - just a dog looking for a good time


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I guess my problem is that I question what a nervebag is, lol. Is it a dog with inconsistent training, that's been self-rewarding for ages, and is enjoying the show? That's what I think. If I was a dog, I'd be barking and lunging and running the fence all day long, because to me that sounds like much more fun than lying down sleeping. If I was out hiking with my owner, then I'd forget all about my bad habits and concentrate on the scents and feces-style snacks I might find along the way, lol. I wouldn't call myself a nervebag or aggressive or anything - just a dog looking for a good time


this is just mean lol. I'm just starting to come to terms with the fact that my dog might be nervy and you're handing me all these excuses now


seriously though. all I know about labels is what I read here. the consensus seems to be that a dog that hides behind you, barks at non threats, scared of buses and on and on is nervy. 
yeah at some point I mightve reinforced and even taught some of it. I did want to be able to block him with my body so I did teach him to go behind me. I did teach him to go between my legs and that's where he goes now when he's avoidant (and I like it to a point that a trainer called me out on it so it's that obvious and I def reinforced it many times over knowingly and unknowingly)
about barking at non threats. 
I did my part in not reacting the right way when this started and then reinforcing it over months of dumb handling. I was basically agitating him unknowingly. he'd bark at a dog and I'd stand there holding him by his neck and even sometimes standing him on his back two feet so that I don't pull his collar. and thus was done for minutes!!!! at a time

but still. the argument is that a confident dog would never react to begin with. 

another thing about the penny can. a while ago I was arguing with someone here about it. I said that I brought on some noise sensitivity with the penny can and they said this couldn't happen with a confident dog. I think it can. if you're shaking a can and looking threatening then you're teaching your dog to be scared of the noise. 

people were saying no, it doesn't matter how you're acting. a confident dog won't be scared no matter what you're doing. well, if our reactions don't matter then why volumes on socializing and how to act around new things with a pup. act like it's nothing and he will follow your lead. 
if it's just the dogs nerves then the owner of a confident dog can be ducking for cover at any noise and the dog wouldn't care. 

which is true? 

someone said that really confident dogs bounced back instantly after spending the first few years of their lives sitting in cages. and went on to work as k9

I don't know myself. I'd like to learn. 

and back to my question. what's your definition of a nervebag?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

IDK, but I don't think that the opposite of noise sensitivity is always a confident dog - to boil it right down to the basics. Why would that be? Unless the dog is actually breaking down at every noise, then that's different, IMO. Not that I have all the answers, lol - just that I don't think it's one or the other. 

If you taught your dog a whole bunch of unwanted things, even if by accident, then you can't avoid the fact that this is what your dog learned- and this is the behavior you encouraged, and you'll get. If you taught him to go behind you, you can't really criticize him standing behind you, or even think this is his natural inclination - you taught him this, right? And if you held him stationary on his 2 rear legs while he barked incessantly at other dogs, then I'd think you were encouraging the lunging - definitely not the '4 on the floor' that you'd want to see, anyhow. That's JMO, so again, who knows if I'm right, lol. 

My definition of a nervebag would be a dog who can't recover from anything. And this is JMO too, so it's not any kind of 'authority' at all, and I could very well be totally wrong. But just because the dog barks isn't enough for me to say "nervebag" and particularly since I'm one to like a barking dog - with discretion, that I've taught. My neighbor right now is throwing together a party tent, and the metal poles are banging on the driveway, making tons of noise. My dog isn't barking at that. But he went wild a few minutes ago, because he knew their cat was sneaking under the fence. Good boy!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm more confused than when I started)))))))


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Ah ha!!!  I have a great idea: let's find a dog-friendly patio and go share a pitcher of margaritas and we can discuss this until they kick us out! LMAO!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Ah ha!!!  I have a great idea: let's find a dog-friendly patio and go share a pitcher of margaritas and we can discuss this until they kick us out! LMAO!


I'd love to)))))) though we'd still have no answers it'd be an interesting discussion


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm still thinking about this lol. I'm def a nerve bag because I get startled as easily. I should've never been bred. 

people are so picky about their dogs. look in the mirror, guys. we are all so perfect, you know. but we demand perfection from our dogs. 

it's a constant measuring contest here. my dog is better than yours. 

I'm still interested in the psychology behind it. I suspect it's something really unattractive that's why my brain is not letting me think it through. self preservation.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

There are many different reasons for wanting a perfect dog. 
- Competition.
- Dogs are a commodity, as such, value is in quality. I spent money on it, it better work or look as expected.
- Dogs are reflections of our inner moralities, etc.
- Dogs are images that we want portrayed about ourselves, for many reasons good and bad. ( If I'm not perfect, my dog better be.)
- Health and temperament issues.
- This is the internet and many people like to play the perfectionist role because they lack 'it' offline.

I'm sure there are other causes for this need of perfection in our dogs. But I think you also have stepped into an oversight, more specifically a over generalization. Not everyone will claim to have or want a perfect dog. I think most people are happy with a dog that will share their love and behave within reason. This forum has a such a large percentage of people who do claim or want the perfect dog, for whatever reason (and a good majority have good intentions), that it is easy to start thinking everyone is hung up on perfection.

As far as the whole selective breeding thing, I think there are a lot of people on here who foam at the mouth for a chance to bash a byb rather than just simply educate newer owners on what they could look for in future dog purchases. There are many reasons why certain dogs should never be bred, from a health standpoint, that much is fairly obvious I hope. Now comparing that philosophy to humans is opening a nightmarish debate. Honestly if we had the kind of control over human breeding as we do over dogs, I'd have some major suggestions on required sterilizations


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ApselBear said:


> There are many different reasons for wanting a perfect dog.
> - Competition.
> - Dogs are a commodity, as such, value is in quality. I spent money on it, it better work or look as expected.
> - Dogs are reflections of our inner moralities, etc.
> ...


you're an interesting person. 

number 4 was what was lurking in my mind. I just couldn't put it in words. number 6 is also very true. actually all your reasons are. 

I was actually talking about this forum. the washouts and all lol. 

but i do it myself too. it's disgusting. I'd never give up my dog for not meeting some ideal that I set for myself but I've caught myself judging people by their dogs.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

lalachka said:


> you're an interesting person.


Wait until you read my edit to the last post


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ApselBear said:


> As far as the whole selective breeding thing, I think there are a lot of people on here who foam at the mouth for a chance to bash a byb rather than just simply educate newer owners on what they could look for in future dog purchases. There are many reasons why certain dogs should never be bred, from a health standpoint, that much is fairly obvious I hope. Now comparing that philosophy to humans is opening a nightmarish debate. Honestly if we had the kind of control over human breeding as we do over dogs, I'd have some major suggestions on required sterilizations




Lol as I said I should've never been bred. I also think that putting restrictions on human breeding is not the way to go. for many reasons. but as a discussion...

and interesting enough, one of my first threads on this forum was about not bashing people that want to breed their dogs. if anything it just makes them go and do it to prove a point. 
I was going to breed my dog. changed my mind after reading some stuff (not here) 
if I was bashed the way some people here are I mightve done it out of spite because I don't like to be told what to do and what not to do. 

anyway, what would your suggestions be?
and are you worthy? lol


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Lala… you certainly raise interesting topics! 

I doubt that most people on here would say their dogs are perfect. But, it is human nature for people to speak more to their own (and their dogs’) strengths vs. weaknesses. 

I do not believe there is such a thing as absolute “perfection” in dogs or humans.

A good quote on this topic (from a German no less ):
“Certain flaws are necessary for the whole. It would seem strange if old friends lacked certain quirks.”
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LifeofRiley said:


> Lala… you certainly raise interesting topics!
> 
> I doubt that most people on here would say their dogs are perfect. But, it is human nature for people to speak more to their own (and their dogs’) strengths vs. weaknesses.
> 
> ...


there's def no perfection 
and I love quirks, that's what makes us who we are and not robots. 

I just find it interesting that people are faster to admit to their flaws (bad trainer) than their dog's (bad nerves) 
I think ApselBear has it with his number 4 but it's interesting why it's this way. 
why is it easier for people to admit they suck as an owner than to admit their dogs lack nerve?

it's not like having or lacking nerve is their accomplishment or shortcoming. 

as far as interesting topics. lol if you only knew what brews in my head. this isn't the place to unload so I limit the philosophy and psychology. but sometimes it bugs me too much)))))


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