# Showline crossed with a Working Line??



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

What will the puppies be like? Does it depend on how you raise them?Train them?

Is it s good or bad thing? Are there professional breeders who do this?

Also does it matter if its American or German?

Just wanted to know.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Stark, Elisabeth's super handsome GSD comes to mind. He is a WL/SL dog

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/happy-birthday-gotcha-day/133750-happy-1st-birthday-stark.html


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

He is handsome!

If I were to get a pup from a breeder it would probably be a cross between SL/WL.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I have a female that is WL/AM SL cross.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

so i am guessing its a good thing?lol.

I mght want both to be from german lines.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

It depends on the conformation of the WORKING LINE... and the temperament of the SHOW LINE... 

If the first is bred ONLY for their work ethic and the second is bred ONLY for the beauty contest... it probably would be a disaster... But there's a LOT OF BREEDERS who recognize that you can breed correct conformation and still work. 

That said, many of the Top Show line dogs are quite heavy bodied, and might not have the athletic abilities of the Working line dogs. I've seen an awful lot of "V" rated Working line dogs that I'd LOVE to put in a show ring even here in the States. I've also seen Top Working line breedings whose energy level might be a bit over the top for the average pet owner... 

Like they said in Lost Horizon... "ALL THINGS IN MODERATION"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...3116-do-they-breed-showline-working-line.html


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Liesje said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...3116-do-they-breed-showline-working-line.html


Good job remembering and finding that link! :thumbup:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

windwalker718 said:


> It depends on the conformation of the WORKING LINE... and the temperament of the SHOW LINE...
> 
> If the first is bred ONLY for their work ethic and the second is bred ONLY for the beauty contest... it probably would be a disaster... But there's a LOT OF BREEDERS who recognize that you can breed correct conformation and still work.


Not every cross is this formula: working for drive and show for conformation. That's a pretty big generalization. I have seen working/show crosses where both parents had good conformation and both had sound nerves and whatever level of drive that breeder was looking for. It's more about the individual dogs and what needs to be brought to the table to sustain or improve. It's not a simple as use a show line for conformation and use a working line for drive. You might get ten puppies that look like the working line and have no drive. Like any breeding, it would depend on what those dogs have produced previously and how that factors in. If you're wanting to use the show line for conformation but that dog hasn't consistently produced dogs of the same quality or better, that would be a bad idea.

I think good breeding always depends on the temperament and and conformation of _both_ dogs.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

There have been not so successful WL/SL breedings resulting in sharp/shy dogs. (Among other things.) One has to remember that the lines have been split since the 70's, and you aren't going to get the GSD back the way it was prior to this in a couple of generations. I think it's a good idea in theory, but in practice you can't just put two dogs together which have essentially been bred for over 30 years with different goals in mind and necessarily get a good result. Not to say there aren't good ones out there, but I don't think you can count on it as being the norm. JMHO...
______________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a puppy that is 1/4 East German working line, 3/4 American show lines. He is great! I love his structure for showing, and his temperament is excellent. Nothing bothers him -- I traveled the weekend I got him and he was good with people and even rode the luggage cart at the hotel.

There are several breeders here in the USA that are mixing German show with American show.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If I ever did get a dog that was SL/WL cross, I would be sure to get it from someone who knows what they are doing, knows their dogs, and has experience, and has successful crosses before.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it depends on what they were trying to accomplish. Rush is about 3/4 German showline, 1/8 American Show line, and 1/8 working line. His dam was the most beautiful German showline bitch, nice temperament, great lines. His sire was a large Black dog, A mixture of German show, American, and German working line dogs. 

Rush is not as large as his sire, and he produces small. I am not sure that I will breed him again. Most of the pups have strong ears, but Milla's, while up are a little soft. Mill looks like a small thin, showline girl with light bones, crazy light eyes and wonky ears. While Ninja looks more like a working line dog, lower, flatter, heavier bone. Scarlet looks very nice indeed. But it was not a very uniform litter. 

If I were to breed him again, it should be to something back into his dam's line to get anything more uniform out of him, the ear thing he got from his sire, and his sister's ears a down like a hounds. 

He's a nice dog. I would not say he has stronger drives than my showline dogs at all. He is laid back and a therapy dog. So I am not sure what contribution the working line dogs made. 

My guess is that he was the result of a breeding for convenience or to continue an earlier line that the breeder had. Shortly after I got Rush, his sire passed on. The breeder had been going more toward working line dogs in recent years, and I think wanted something else out of the big black dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It depends on what you want from the dog....if you want a WL/SL dog for having a real nice all around dog...I think its happened frequently. The problem with WL/SL mix is using them to produce. They won't produce winning show dogs, and they won't produce consistent working dogs. So if you're looking for a good family dog to have fun and compete at local levels, these mixes often fit the bill. If you are serious breeder, you really have to question using SL/WL type dogs improve either direction. JMO


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> It depends on what you want from the dog....if you want a WL/SL dog for having a real nice all around dog...I think its happened frequently. The problem with WL/SL mix is using them to produce. They won't produce winning show dogs, and they won't produce consistent working dogs. So if you're looking for a good family dog to have fun and compete at local levels, these mixes often fit the bill. If you are serious breeder, you really have to question using SL/WL type dogs improve either direction. JMO


What are we mixing when you get yourself down here???


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't mix dogs, I only breed dogs that have working aptitude consistent with what the breed should be able to do. If it is a good working dog from a history of good working dogs I consider the dog a possible fit for my breeding program. But my needs from a dog are often different from non breeders, in which a show/working cross will do fine. I think that WL/SL progeny can make great dogs, but I think breeders should have a direction and plan for producing dogs consistent with the legacy of the breed.
There are many show dogs that can work, and many working line dogs that have nice structure. As for producers......well it gets more complicated,IMO.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *Liesje*
> I think good breeding always depends on the temperament and and conformation of _both_ dogs.


This is a good thing for breeders, especially newer breeders, to reflect on & take to heart. Too many discussions I've seen of SL/WL crosses make assumptions that the pups will get the best of both, when the reality is likely to be considerably more complex, & not necessarily at all what the breeder envisioned.

Question...Exactly what is wrong with WL conformation??? How would either ASL or GSL improve it? I personally find the more moderate & functional structure of WL much more attractive than the extreme angulation or hump backs of the respective SL.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> Stark, Elisabeth's super handsome GSD comes to mind. He is a WL/SL dog
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/happy-birthday-gotcha-day/133750-happy-1st-birthday-stark.html


 
Yes, Stark is a working line and show line cross. I honestly believe that this particular cross was exactly right for me.

My breeder looks at the quality of DOGS and their predigree, working ability, structure, health, temperament, etc., etc., before pairing two dogs together. I honestly LOVE HER and her program! I can't say enough good things about her.

I knew I wanted to do some sport with my next dog, I also knew that this would be *my first* trialing dog in which I had no help (my parents trained Beau) so I wanted a dog that was not crazy in drive and that would be a little forgiving.

A working line, although NOW would be my first choice, I think starting with a cross worked beautifully. I got the best of both parents and lines in Stark.

He holds some of the DDR characteristics from his father's side and some of the West German Showline characteristics from his mother's side.

He is able to work in any avenue (we currently train in obedience/rally, agility, and schutzhund) and has AMAZING drives but is not crazy in drive all the time, he is a very *balanced* dog which I wanted and really needed in my first "working/sport" dog.

At first I was concerned that he didn't have much drive but have come to realize that he is just starting to mature (he just turned 1) and now he is really coming into his own. I am LOVING it! Also, the DDR lines tend to mature slower anyways.

I would look at the qualities you want, you need, and the ones you think you can handle, then find a breeder who will match those things to you and your lifestyle. I personally think saying you want this line or that is a waste of time because you really need to know the dogs, their history to get a feel for what will work for you. A cross may be good (depending on the cross - find a reptuable breeder who knows and can explain why they are crossing these lines, what do they want, have they done it before, what was the outcome?) but you may want to look at particular lines as well. I would contact a few breeders and ask some questions about their dogs and programs and tell them exactly what you want. Be honest about it too because it will be YOU who will be in trouble if you don't! 

I was fortunate enough to meet Stark's siblings from the first litter (they were 2 years old) so I knew pretty much what I was getting. The breeder was able to asses the litter (she kept in contact with all of them - still does) and knew what they were able to do (most do SchH or agility and some do show and rally). All dogs from this particular litter were OVC'd and all passed. They had excellent temperaments and were just amazing versitle dogs. What she wants for her program and what *I* as a potential buyer wanted. So, she choose to breed this pair again. Once again at 1 year old, this litter is proving to be another exceptional litter. We (the 10 of us owners - big litter.. lol) have all done our prelims so far and all have passed (did not send in to OFA - only did OVC for prelims) and so far we are all training in some avenue (some more than one like us) except I think 1 dog who is just a family companion to an active home.

Really know what you want and know what you can handle then go from there.


**Just to add because it sounds like all my breeder does is breed crosses but she does not - she has a pure Czech litter right now... **I WANT**  **


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

We train with a dog that's a SL/WL cross. No one showed him his pedigree. He works like a Champ. 

As far as what to expect from the puppies...Well. Truly it depends on the parents and the individual pup. Take a stereotypical WL with a streotypical SL and the results could be all across the board in looks and temperament and drives. Take a nice moderate structure SL that works with a moderate structure WL that works and the results will be more predictable.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Question...Exactly what is wrong with WL conformation??? How would either ASL or GSL improve it? I personally find the more moderate & functional structure of WL much more attractive than the extreme angulation or hump backs of the respective SL.


I agree, that is why I don't like the generalization the other poster was referring to. The SL/WL crosses I have seen were not because the WL supposedly had poor conformation and the SL needed more drive. I think a good deal of WLs could stand to improve the SL conformation if it were that simple.


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## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> This is a good thing for breeders, especially newer breeders, to reflect on & take to heart. Too many discussions I've seen of SL/WL crosses make assumptions that the pups will get the best of both, when the reality is likely to be considerably more complex, & not necessarily at all what the breeder envisioned.
> 
> Question...Exactly what is wrong with WL conformation??? How would either ASL or GSL improve it? I personally find the more moderate & functional structure of WL much more attractive than the extreme angulation or hump backs of the respective SL.


 
I agree.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I have heard some harsh things about Showline dogs, especially American Showlines.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I have heard some harsh things about Showline dogs, especially American Showlines.


I know there are a lot of negative things being said about American Showlines, But there are breeders out there that do take care in breeding AM Showlines. Some breeders do actually care if they produce well balanced dogs, they strive for dogs with good health, awesome temperaments, dogs that are not so angulated. I have a American showline and she is truly an awesome, awesome dog. She has an awesome temperament, she is not as angulated as a lot of showlines out there. I just wanted to throw that out there...

I wanted to add that Andaka(from this board) is a American Showline breeder who has some beautiful dogs!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Here's my beautiful American Showline/German Working line cross, Cody.  Honestly he is the most amazing first dog I personally own. He is loyal to me and will work for a pat on the back. He isn't crazy in drives but will go nutz for the tennis ball, lol. He's silly at times and just enjoys my company. I love him so much and wish to own another am/ger cross in the future, I just can't find any breeder doing this who I like....


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I know there are alot of great American Showline breeders out there. It hurts me when people say such harsh things like that.

Cody is so gorgeous!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Exactly, what is wrong with working lines conformation? Nothing if that is what you like. I personally prefer the German Showline dog. It is a preference, not what is better or worse, just a preference. I do not feel the need to knock the working line dogs. I think there are enough German Shepherd fanciers to support the different lines. I do not feel threatened by them, opposed to them, or irritated by them. My only guess is that some Showline breeders must have been seriously nasty to working line fanciers and that is why at every opportunity, they have to diss them.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Here is my American Showline/Workingline girl. She is our first German Shepherd, she is the best dog, very loyal, very smart. She is very dear to us, we just love her to pieces.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

emjworks05 said:


> Here is my American Showline/Workingline girl. She is our first German Shepherd, she is the best dog, very loyal, very smart. She is very dear to us, we just love her to pieces.



She is gorgeous!! I love her color!

I think one of the reasons people bash Showline GSDs is because they think all the dog has to do it prance around a show ring. I think there is alot more to showing than most think.

I wouldn't mind getting Showline or Working line, but only if its what I am looking for.....but thats for another time.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Thank you! We:wub::wub::wub::wub: her. Your right there is more than prancing around in a ring, lots and lots and lots of training involved.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I am not in the show business but I know that not every dog can prance around a ring, with crazy fans, other dogs of different breeds and genders and all sorts of commotion.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Having done several types of sports and training, yes there are some difficulties in showing, but overall I personally do not think it compares to the amount of training and proofing required for stuff like high level obedience, agility, and Schutzhund.

There is a big split for several reasons, I think the main one being that people like what they like. Show line people like their dogs....fine. Working line people prefer _their _dogs....also fine. To show and campaign a dog at a high level may not be that difficult as far as what is required out of the dog, but it is time consuming and expensive. So is Schutzhund. So is agility, etc, etc. It's not that it's terribly difficult to find a dog that can do all of these things, but that for the human it's often just not financially possible or there are not enough hours in the day. Right now I'm only actively training one of my dogs, and if I do a bit of tracking, obedience, and agility all in the same night, I don't eat until 9pm, and then I still need to do an hour on the elliptical for myself and somehow get all the other dog and house chores done before bed so I can drag myself up for work.

Personally I'd rather just focus on my own dogs and my goals for them than pick a side, so to speak. My working line has a higher conformation title than my show line, and my show line is ten times better at Schutzhund than my working line. Just pick what is right for you and go from there. I personally will probably always have at least one working line and one show line. Overall, the working lines are probably my favorite but I like to show my dogs too (not AKC stuff but the WDA stuff).


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

One thing they have common, Working line and Showline dogs are beautiful.lol


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Thanks for the comment on Cody, he's my baby. :wub:

Personally, I love the German Showlines. My next dog in the future will most likely be from that line but I also like the working lines. I like the Am lines to a point. I'm not a fan of the exagerated legs in most Am lines but if there is an Am line breeder breeding working dogs meaning they can do ob, agility, etc, I will look at them. Already have one in mind, her name is Lori Nickeson and she has Am lines who have CH titles and UDX titles.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

oh ur welcome.

I don't like that look either. it looks awkward and not natural. I have some breeders in mind, so when I get my own house, job, money, and a car I will get a puppy. I really like Alta-Tollhaus. I love their female Zucca.

Depending on the breeder, that will depend whether I get a showline one or a working line one. But I have time to think about it.


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