# Frustrated



## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

I'm ready to give up on the RAW diet and look for a decent kibble.:hammer:

Our boy is sick again...Vomitting and loose stool. It seems like he is getting sick too often and I cannot find anything else in his environment that he could be getting. Plus, there is always some level of struggle to get him to eat (worse for the wife).

My vet thinks is sickenesses would be worse if not for the raw diet. I'm not sure. Vet puts him on antibotics and some other meds and he gets better. But, now were back where we where.

I think he gets a good variety (chicken, turkey, beef, pork, venison). I'm kinda at the end of my rope. Guess we'll see what the vet says this time.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

He could be allergic to a particular protein source in his diet. How long has been on raw, and did you start him off slow with only one type of raw protein source for a week or two and see how he tolerates it? 

Some dogs are allergic to chicken or turkey. 

What I would do: fast him for 24 hours.

Feed ONE source of raw for a week and see if he improves. For example. NOTHING but chicken for a week or two. If he does well/improves, add somthing else, like turkey. So ONLY chicken and Turkey for a week or two. If he gets sick again, turkey is the culprit. Try the next source of protein, like beef. 

NOTHING but chicken and beef for a week or two, etc . . . 

Of course if starting off with the chicken he is still sick, start again with something different, and so on.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

Moved him to raw as a pup. Really seemed to start having issues over the last year and can't contribute it to any certain source.

I'll move back to a single source and see what I can find.

Question: How do you balance the RMB, MM & OM with only one protein source? Also, if you find an allergy to a certain source, or sources, what do you do for variety?


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

First off, balance doesn't have to be achieved every single meal. Just aim to have balance in general.

2nd, balance doesn't have anything to do with protein source. The preference is to use a variety of protein sources, but putting a dog on a single source for a period of time (even an extended period of time) won't hurt. I'd start with using just chicken, since it's the least expensive and easiest to get.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dogs, like humans, can develop allergies overnight to foods they have never been allergic to before. 

I sympathize, hard to track down issues on chronic conditions like that. 

The main thing about providing balance and variety is that a raw diet needs to be balanced over time - long time. Not a big deal if there is no or little variety for a few weeks, if they don't get their organ meats for a few days, just as our long-term health will not be affected by the occasional day or days of not eating well, as long as in general we do eat well. Having to eliminate one protein source won't have much of an impact overall in variety, or you can seek out novel sources like rabbit and venison. I know Last year someone gave me two big boxes of Buffalo bones and trimmings which was fed daily, with other stuff once in a while for variety. Boy, did my dogs do well on the Buffalo over the winter! No itching, gorgeous coats! Just throwing that in as an example of finding variety outside the usual, and not worrrying too much about cutting down on variety by one or two foods. 

It may not be his diet at all, but if the vet can't find anything else, I'd start looking at his diet. I know people with dogs that did develop GI issues as they got older and moved their dogs to high quality kibble, and the dogs were doing better on it. 

For organ meats, I would start with only MM and MRBs when testing for his tolerance to a protein source, and if doing good after a few days, start giving organ meats from the SAME protein source. For example, he gets nothing but chicken MM and MRB's for the first week, stool looks good, vomiting stops. Then introduce chicken livers for a few days and look for any changes. 

Then when you are satisfied that he is NOT allergic or intolerant to chicken, you move on to another protein source, like beef, for example. So he gets chicken MM, MRBs, chicken livers, and ground beef and beef heart and or tongue. After a week, he is still doing well, replace the chicken liver with beef liver, then try other organ meats like beef kidney (if you can handle kidney - I can't handle the smell!), and so on.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I'm sorry JohnnyB! I know how frustrating it is. 

Ditto Regina.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

I went back an read an old thread of yours, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/92180-few-general-questions.html

If he is doing better on abx, it could be a bacterial overgrowth. From the limited information, it seems that this is an intermittent problem, which would fit for SIBO. Have you tested his cobalamin/folate and TLI? While sibo doesn't normally cause vomiting, it can in some cases. 

I also wonder if this could have progressed into IBD. I'd want CBC and cobalamin/folate/TLI tests.

I assume the vet put him on metronidazole (flagy)? What exactly was he on?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

JohnnyB said:


> Our boy is sick again...Vomitting and loose stool.


Questions:

1. *Vomitting what?* Yellow, foamy liquid? Solid chunks of food?

2. *Vomitting when?* Right after eating? On an empty stomach?

3. *What TYPE of loose stool?* Consistancy of a pudding, water, soft serve ice cream?

4. Any *mucus* in the stools?

5. *How much and what are you feeding?* I want EXACT measurements. Ounces - not '1 chicken leg'. Also, what are you feeding? Chicken - from where? List absolutely everything that goes into the dogs mouth (supplements, treats, etc.)


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

So, I think at least one factor is that he may be developing separation anxiety. The symptoms either seem to start or be the worst the day I leave.

I also think I may have been feeding too much OM.

I've started back from square one and so far things have cleared up.

Questions:

1. *Vomitting what?* Yellow, foamy liquid? Solid chunks of food? It's been both at times. One time was clearly food (the day after feeding which surprised me) and once w/like a yellow bile.

2. *Vomitting when?* Right after eating? On an empty stomach? See above.

3. *What TYPE of loose stool?* Consistancy of a pudding, water, soft serve ice cream? I guess closer to soft serve. Prolly between that & liquid.

4. Any *mucus* in the stools? Nope

5. *How much and what are you feeding?* I want EXACT measurements. Ounces - not '1 chicken leg'. Also, what are you feeding? Chicken - from where? List absolutely everything that goes into the dogs mouth (supplements, treats, etc.)
Right now I'm feeding

Turkey Neck - 10 - 14 oz
Turkey Meat - 10 - 12 oz
Ground Beef & Organs - 4 oz
Before I started over I was feeding chicken hind quarters from Walmart instead of turkey necks, 12 - 16 oz.
Occasionally an egg (w/shell) and some veggies. Usually carrots, tomatoes and broccoli.
Doesn't get a lot of treats but it's freeze dried liver treats when he does.

Prolly not as scientific as you were looking for. Now that I've started over I'm getting more exact. I vary the turkey MM based upon the weight of the necks.

Right now things are looking better. Poo is good and appetite is better (I'm also not traveling).

Thanks for the feedback!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would get rid of the veggies for now too especially tomatoes (they are in the nightshade family and can cause inflammation). Broccoli can cause gas in humans so probably not a great idea for a dog with digestive issues. They also, really, serve no purpose.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I don't buy my chicken from Wal-Mart, but have heard from others that they process and package their chicken, especially the leg quarters, in a broth (high in salt and other stuff dogs AND humans don't need). This, too, could have been causing some issues.


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## JohnnyB (Apr 2, 2008)

Veggies are rare and have been removed since the "restart".

I had heard that some people (including Wally World) add water and that can cause issues. The turkey I'm feeding now comes straight from the processor.


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