# It was a good week, until it wasn't



## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I was so proud of Maya earlier this week. We went to the dog park when the weather was nice and she played SO WELL with the other dogs off leash. She had so much fun, and was perfectly behaved, just like the other times I brought her there.

Then at the pet store, another dog was barking like crazy at Maya, but her only reaction was to sit down and look to me like, "What's that guy's problem?"

Things were a bit iffy at the vet's office yesterday, but she was obviously stressed in that environment and everything went without incident.

But tonight she pulled away from me and attacked two dogs out for a walk 

I don't think she broke skin at all; she chased them around their owner's legs, barking and snapping. I don't think any real damage was done, but their owner was too busy (understandably) cussing me out at the top of her lungs to look over them really well and see. She just wanted to get them the heck away, obviously.

I've contact a trainer a couple of times about getting Maya into their board and train program, but always went for other training options because I honestly just don't have that kind of money right now. I still don't have the money, but I'm hoping we can work out some kind of payment plan, because obviously that is really the only option at this point, for Maya's sake and everybody elses.

 I am very, very sad tonight. I just feel terrible.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Aww,I feel terrible for you.Things were going along great and then she has an over the top reaction If you could only figure out what's different the times she reacts opposed to when she doesn't.Wish our dogs could talk to us sometimes.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

This is the first time this happened so you were caught off guard. This could be a one time incident or not maybe not. Maybe something at the dog park that you could of missed. My dog is dog reactive and it is constant work to keep him from reacting to other dogs just when i think we knicked this think wham i get reminded we still are eflicted. I know how it feels when your dog looks like a saint one second and sounds like an enraged fool the next. A good correction with a prong collar will shut it down before it starts and will give you much more control so you dog does not get loose. Know one got hurt and you will be more prepared next time around.


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

I feel so bad for you! Such a shock after a some good experiences. Keep your head up and don't feel too sad, we are all always still a work in process, Maya too. I hope the trainer you are contacting will be able to help you guys! Sending good thoughts your way!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for the comments. Off lead, she does well with other dogs. I think this happened because she was on leash and the other dogs were walking near "her" yard.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

J-Boo said:


> I've contact a trainer a couple of times about getting Maya into* their board and train program*, but always went for other training options because I honestly just don't have that kind of money right now. *I still don't have the money,* but I'm hoping we can work out some kind of payment plan, because obviously that is really the only option at this point, for Maya's sake and everybody elses.


Board and train program? Isn't that more expensive then you taking her to class? And if you take her, you would get the training you would need as well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dog parks can be a great outlet for dogs that do not have problems with other dogs. Unfortunately, yours does. You need to start looking at the dog you have instead of the dog you envision yourself having, and change what you are doing with her. 

She did not have a problem at the dog park. She played nice at the dog park. Well, here's the thing. She is an animal that is living with humans. You need for her to get along with humans, and live in a human-world. She can do this. You and the other humans in your home are her pack now. She never, ever, has to come into contact with another dog. You can play with her, you feed her, you exercise her, you train her, you take her to classes, etc, you protect her.

She is not a little furry child that needs to learn how to play nicely with other little furry children. That thinking is getting you in trouble. Dogs do not need day care and dog parks. In fact, it is BAD for some dogs. 

You were giving your dog, your buddy, your friend a great day today: run around and play at the dog park, go to a doggy store to buy toys, food, treats, etc, go to the vet to get what needs to be done, done, and then out for a walk. Lots of good dog-stuff that we write and read about on here and other doggy venues. 

Only you have a puppy who, is, was, overwhelmed today by it all. Sorry. And dog parks and doggy day-care are places where dogs run free, frolicking with other dogs. It just isn't a good idea for a lot of formidable dogs with any measure of prey drive, or dog aggressiveness in them, nor dogs that are demonstrating other behavioral issues/leadership issues. It ramps dogs up, and it can increase or decrease their confidence in other situations. At the dog park, dogs are off-leash, and rightfully so, because leashed dogs have flight taken away from them, so if they feel insecure, they must fight. Your leashed dog on the walk was probably still in a ramped up mode, but knew it could not flee away from trouble, so it went into fight mode.

What your dog needs to learn (preferably in a class session with you managing the leash, and other dogs and their owners working alongside), is to ignore other dogs. It will NOT learn this if she is taken to dog parks and allowed to run around and play with them. Not happening. So that needs to stop. 

Dog parks are one of the worst ideas anyone in the pet industry has come up with in a long time. It is as bad as a puppet toy for you to play with with your dog. It's a train wreck for a lot of dogs. It's right up there with retractable leashes.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

J-Boo this is just my opinion but if you get a good trainer to work with both of you, you get professional critique on how you are handling/working with Maya not lessons after board and train clears up the issue. To me, that learning curve that you and she will experience together will only strengthen your bond with her if the trainer is a good one.

I am going through something similar and learning with him makes me feel more confident and empowered to manage his issues.

Wish you great success with this. Oh and don't look at it as a problem view it as just another thing that you and she will get through together. I set my mind like that and it helps a bit. It may help you feel better about this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh definitely. It is these challenges that build a real bond with the dog, and we learn how to be good and experienced handlers by working through issues. These are the dogs that teach us. And the journey with them is something worth so much (in hindsight). I think it was Mark Twain that said a good childhood is hardly worth the bother. She is young. She will learn. You can do this. Good luck.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not big on board and train in general but I think people have a misconception of board and train. These are top notch trainers you are speaking of. TOP NOTCH. You will send her for two weeks, they will train the issue. Up her obedience. You will then go to training with her to follow up. This is not going to affect the bond you have with her. The bond is already there. They are not going to leave you hanging so the B&T training is lost because you don't know what you are doing.

Now having said that, you are only an hour from them. Well within travel distance for lessons. Since money is a concern, why don't you start off with lessons with them. Let them teach you the tools you need to shut this all down. 

Discuss all your options with the trainers.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So this boils down to leash reactivity? There are lots of dogs that do fine with dogs off leash and get frustrated on leash. This actually rules out aggression, because if it was aggression, she would react no matter what. I had a very leash reactive dog. He wasn't allowed in classes and the one time he was, it was behind a barrier, which didn't work well. I ended up training him on my own(using different techniques from different trainers and putting all those methods to work) I worked with him everyday for 4 months straight. Looking back it was worth it because it worked and he got past that issue, which makes walking him and bringing him places much easier. I have never taken him to a dog park and I don't see him doing well at a dog park, he is just not a dog park kinda dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> So this boils down to leash reactivity? There are lots of dogs that do fine with dogs off leash and get frustrated on leash. This actually rules out aggression, because if it was aggression, she would react no matter what. .


I think people throw around that word "reactive" way to much. It waters down the actual behavior. Regardless of the "why", this dog just attacked two other dogs. That IS aggression. That is a flat out act of aggression.

And to say that if it's actually aggression they would react no matter what is wrong. Dogs have their triggers. It might be the yard. It might be touching them in a certain spot. It might be other dogs. But this dog make physical contact with two other dogs with intent. That is aggression.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I think people throw around that word "reactive" way to much. It waters down the actual behavior. Regardless of the "why", this dog just attacked two other dogs. That IS aggression. That is a flat out act of aggression.
> 
> And to say that if it's actually aggression they would react no matter what is wrong. Dogs have their triggers. It might be the yard. It might be touching them in a certain spot. It might be other dogs. But this dog make physical contact with two other dogs with intent. That is aggression.


We can agree to disagree on this one. Not according to every trainer I seen with Midnite, which was numerous trainers and one evaulation. True aggression would be dealt with differently then reactivity. You aren't going to train aggression out of a dog, manage it yes, but not train it out. You can train them not to be leash reactive with good solid results. I know Midnite isn't aggressive, but you would never have know that when he acted like he wanted to kill every dog he seen when he was leashed, but completely fine if leash was not involved. 

This dog made physical contact with 2 dogs is correct, this dog could have done a lot more damage or killed them and didn't. This dog does not know how to greet or act around dogs when on leash, but is fine off leash. The leash is the trigger.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> True aggression would be dealt with differently then reactivity.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Because according to every trainer I've seen, which are numerous, an aggressive act is aggression and it's dealt with the same with variations for the individual dog.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I know you feel terrible about what happened, but apparently no none was hurt, so you got lucky this time. The thing now is to heed the warning. 

My Newlie is not dog reactive to every dog or in every situation and whatever sets him off is not something I can always predict. Roughly, three years ago, there were two separate instances of him nipping other dogs at a doggy day care. The staff thought the first time was a fluke, but I never took him back after the second time. Then, maybe a year and a half ago, there was a more serious altercation between my 80 pound shepherd and a 5 pound dog, the fight taking place underneath the chain link fence in my back yard. The little dog survived but was badly hurt. I had a 6 foot privacy fence put up. 

Newlie has never gone to a dog park and never will now. As other threads have suggested, sometimes we have to look at the dog in front of us rather than the dog we think or wish we had. On the plus side, Newlie may not be good with other dogs, but he is extremely trustworthy with me and, indeed, with people of all ages.

Training can only help, which ever route you decide to take.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

J-Boo said:


> I was so proud of Maya earlier this week. We went to the dog park when the weather was nice and she played SO WELL with the other dogs off leash. She had so much fun, and was perfectly behaved, just like the other times I brought her there.
> 
> Then at the pet store, another dog was barking like crazy at Maya, but her only reaction was to sit down and look to me like, "What's that guy's problem?"
> 
> ...


Hey Jessica, something I would think about and if you do end up with sending her to a trainer, I bet they tell you something pretty similar. Letting her run with other dogs even though its off leash vs on leash creates too much inconsistency if your working on these kinds of things.

It ends up making it take longer to get her to behave and you don't realize it because she has those times where she does. Its easy to get a little relaxed and then they throw us a curve like that. It happens with all of us in different things, so don't beat yourself up.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Board and train program? Isn't that more expensive then you taking her to class? And if you take her, you would get the training you would need as well.


It is expensive, which is one reason I haven't gone for it before now. Instead I've done classes with her at our local obedience and training club, had a trainer come over to the house, and did a day train program with her at a local training place than does behavior modification. Board and train has been recommended to me by a few people, and I'm thinking now might be the time to take that step. After the 2 weeks, he trainers do come to your home and out to the park or wherever with you and the dog, to help teach how to act in situations that the dog has problems with.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> Dog parks can be a great outlet for dogs that do not have problems with other dogs. Unfortunately, yours does. You need to start looking at the dog you have instead of the dog you envision yourself having, and change what you are doing with her.
> 
> She did not have a problem at the dog park. She played nice at the dog park. Well, here's the thing. She is an animal that is living with humans. You need for her to get along with humans, and live in a human-world. She can do this. You and the other humans in your home are her pack now. She never, ever, has to come into contact with another dog. You can play with her, you feed her, you exercise her, you train her, you take her to classes, etc, you protect her.
> 
> ...


To be clear, these things didn't all happen in the same day, but over the course of a week.

I see your points. I was very hesitant about the dog park situation initially, but when she proved she does well with dogs off leash I thought it was a good way for her to become desensitized to strange dogs being around. I hear you about her needing to learn to just ignore them - I can keeping focusing on that instead, my thing before had just been the more exposure she had to appropriate interactions with other dogs, the less anxious she would be whenever she encounters one in the situations that set her off.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Thank you for your input, everyone. You've given me more to think about.

I guess my thinking that getting her used to interacting nicely with other dogs would help her get over her dog reactivity in other situations and while on leash (being near our yard seems to be a big trigger, too) is wrong. No more dog park. On the one hand it's too bad, she did so well and got good exercise and had fun! But on the other hand, if that's key to avoiding any future encounters like yesterday's, then it's a no brainer.

It sounds like this board and train program offers a lot of help after the two weeks as well. I've had them in mind for a while, but every time I've opted to go for a closer/less expensive option. But after last night, I feel like I should stop spending smaller amounts of money on these others programs and go for the "big guns". It's not that these other trainers haven't helped - like I said, I was so impressed with her progress lately! But obviously we still have a lot of work to do.

I'm still thinking over the board and train. There is one other local trainer who comes highly recommended, and has a program she calls "Beast on a Leash". I want to consult with her and get her thoughts on our issue before making a final decision.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Oh, and the local training class we go to suggested I look into consulting Cornell about getting Maya on anxiety meds. While I might consider that if she still these issues later in life, right now I feel like she is still basically a puppy mentality-wise, and she needs more time to mature and keep up with the training and see how things go.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dog parks and day care are great for GSDs if they are run properly. Our dog park self polices. The local day cares are very safe and they only take calm, non aggressive dogs. They also train their employees to read and understand dog behavior and signals. I would use either.

My dog is leash reactive in tight situations where there is nowhere to go. We called in a private trainer who suggested socialization off our property, not on. At home and locally is the very last place to proof a dog. Do not put your dog in a situation where she can escape and cause trouble. If you have a good board situation like Jax says, scrape up the money and do it right away. The longer you wait, the harder to train. I know, I'm working on issues we didn't even have two months ago and I'm upset about it too because I thought I knew what I was doing.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Ok I've only made it through page 1.

How the heck did she "break away" from you? That's the thing to get ahold of. Do not let this happen.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

middleofnowhere said:


> Ok I've only made it through page 1.
> 
> How the heck did she "break away" from you? That's the thing to get ahold of. Do not let this happen.


She dragged me across the lawn. And that's my fault because she didn't have her prong on. With her prong, she would have barked and lunged, but not dragged me like that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How long have you had this puppy?


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

She's 16 months now, we've had her since 10 weeks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J-Boo said:


> She's 16 months now, we've had her since 10 weeks


You need an experienced trainer to teach you how to work with your dog. If you had a bond with your dog, she would not drag you across the lawn. It is not a problem with the collar or lack of the collar, it is a problem with using the collar as a management tool instead of training the dog.

If the other dog owner had gotten bitten in the course of what happened, you could be facing serious legal problems, to the extent that your dog's fate might not be in your hands. Take this as a wake-up call. You need help. Not on the internet, not training videos or u-tubes, or leerberg websites, not e-collars. We can be a support group. But you need a trainer.

You need to learn how to be an effective leader to this dog. This leadership will build the bond that you need with her. 

A good trainer will teach you more than how to fit a prong collar on your dog. A good trainer will be able to see how you interact with your dog and will be able to make suggestions that work for her and for you. A good trainer will tell you how to make your requests commands, how to follow through, how to be consistent in body language as well as feedback to the dog. A good trainer can help you evaluate the dog's body language and help you to learn the timing you need to avoid problems, and to communicate with your dog. 

I am sorry. I feel bad for you because this is hard stuff to stomach, and there is just no way to say it nicely. And it is going to be tougher now. It just is. You can do this. You can learn this stuff. And at the end of this journey you will be a real dog handler. But there are no shortcuts. Power-steering is just training wheels, it won't teach you how to balance on the bike.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> You need an experienced trainer to teach you how to work with your dog. If you had a bond with your dog, she would not drag you across the lawn. It is not a problem with the collar or lack of the collar, it is a problem with using the collar as a management tool instead of training the dog.
> 
> If the other dog owner had gotten bitten in the course of what happened, you could be facing serious legal problems, to the extent that your dog's fate might not be in your hands. Take this as a wake-up call. You need help. Not on the internet, not training videos or u-tubes, or leerberg websites, not e-collars. We can be a support group. But you need a trainer.
> 
> ...


It's not hard to stomach, I came here for helpful suggestions, and as long as they're given without rudeness they're appreciated  Some people on these forums exercise less tact than others, but amid the responses I always find heaps of helpful tips. Maya is my first dog, and I think without this forum we would be farther behind than we are. Lots of good info here.

We have hired trainers before, but I think the training was maybe not quite intensive enough. We did learn helpful tips, and as my initial post and the title were meant to convey, overall I do think we've made some great progress. But, all too obviously, there is still a long way to go.

If not the board and train, another option I am considering is a local trainer who comes highly recommended to come work one-on-one with us for several sessions in the real-life situations Maya and I will be facing together. The thought was "should I keep spending money on these other options, if in the end we might wind up in board and train anyway?" I have a "date" to talk with both the board and train folks about evaluating Maya, and with the local one-on-one trainer to get everyone's input before making a decision on what step to try next.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear this happened  I hope everyone is uninjured. 

Do you think it may be a good idea to have Maya muzzled when walking her on leash? I just can't help but think that you were very lucky to get away from that situation with just a few cusses thrown your way. If the other party was injured, you would be liable. I say this because I had to report a lady to our local council the other day when her dog attacked mine during a walk through the neighbourhood. If my dog was injured, she would have been in serious trouble. I would hate for you to be put in the same situation!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J-Boo said:


> It's not hard to stomach, I came here for helpful suggestions, and as long as they're given without rudeness they're appreciated  Some people on these forums exercise less tact than others, but amid the responses I always find heaps of helpful tips. Maya is my first dog, and I think without this forum we would be farther behind than we are. Lots of good info here.
> 
> We have hired trainers before, but I think the training was maybe not quite intensive enough. We did learn helpful tips, and as my initial post and the title were meant to convey, overall I do think we've made some great progress. But, all too obviously, there is still a long way to go.
> 
> If not the board and train, another option I am considering is a local trainer who comes highly recommended to come work one-on-one with us for several sessions in the real-life situations Maya and I will be facing together. The thought was "should I keep spending money on these other options, if in the end we might wind up in board and train anyway?" I have a "date" to talk with both the board and train folks about evaluating Maya, and with the local one-on-one trainer to get everyone's input before making a decision on what step to try next.


I don't see how a board and train can build the bond with your dog. Can it get the behavior under control? Maybe, if they are good, but hopefully then there would be a lot of work with you on how to work with her and keep up the training. 

Frankly, I just don't like the idea of someone else training my dog, especially if I cannot be there to watch. I would rather pay someone to train me how to train my dog. To watch me interact with my dog, and to make suggestions.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> I don't see how a board and train can build the bond with your dog. Can it get the behavior under control? Maybe, if they are good, but hopefully then there would be a lot of work with you on how to work with her and keep up the training.
> 
> Frankly, I just don't like the idea of someone else training my dog, especially if I cannot be there to watch. I would rather pay someone to train me how to train my dog. To watch me interact with my dog, and to make suggestions.


I definitely see your point. I'll be talking to them both tomorrow and hopefully get an idea for what's the best fit. I know the B&T people come out to your home as well as out and about with you and the dog after the two week board, but I also see what you're saying about the possible benefits of doing it all in person.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

"f you had a bond with your dog, she would not drag you across the lawn." Not necessarily so. Really not. I've seen a great working dog and handler when the dog decided to "go" and the handler didn't have a chance to get in a command. However, the dog did not "get away from her" - she held on to the lead. 

Whether board and train works or not depends on the trainer and the family. I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. However, I do prefer to train my own dogs. I enjoy it and so do the dogs. 

Look carefully at the trainer, their background, their approach as well as whether to do board and trainer or more "hands on". There are force based trainers that I would not have my dog(s) with. There are other trainers that I trust explicitly. Talk about the approach they suggest (it is probably what they will use if they are B&T), the approach you would prefer and see how they line up.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dogs are dogs as often as I put them on pedestals. They will also lie to you if given a chance and yes they may loose themselves for a moment and forget about you trying to drag you across the yard -bond or no bond. They are not perfect. But I also learned so much from my dog reactive dog. I grew up with dogs until I got max did I realize how much more there is to learn. The time and training does strengthen the bond. I found a trainer who owned German shepherds and one of her dogs were reactive. I've learned and learning so much from this woman. Yes we are a work in progress. There is much practice needed on focusing skills between you and your dog and learning your dogs body language and timed corrections this is were a trainer comes in and is able to make sure your timings are correct . and it is a skill that comes with time. I'm a very layed back person with a dog reactive dog you do have to be super vigilant. It also teaches you to become very aware of your surroundings picking up body language in your dog without looking. It is how Intune with your dog you become. You start to be keen on your senses and learn to act on them. We have had our brief moments I think spring is in air and the dogs we see outside do stare and are not well behaved opposed to the ones in class. Keeping focus of not distance, corrections along with even change in direction or walk in a circle,are what it takes to get using his brain. Max focuses on a ball more then any food item so I will bring that on our walks now. If you go the board and training route it would still be a good idea to find a good trainer and continue training. Your challenges you face with your pup will help unlock your gifts.


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## 5stargerman (Jan 5, 2016)

I was experiencing slightly similar problems with my dog. Every time he saw a dog, he would go "bonkers"...this little 20lb brat even pulled his leash out of the hands of a teenage boy and ended up biting another dog. I hired an awesome trainer who told me to work on heeling for 2 weeks and then we would work on the dog "aggression"(or whatever you want to call it) issue later. To work on heeling, we put a choker chain on him(which worked perfectly fine for my dog; it never choked him because we had the proper size and it was used properly), and whenever he attempted to leave the heel position, I gave him a quick pop on the leash and said "Ssst"(our negative marker). Within 2 weeks of walking about 5mins a day, he was literally heeling perfectly. Just to note, I also worked with him inside off-leash with positive reinforcement to teach him what "heel" meant. Additionally, I would throw in a treat/"yes!" to get him excited when he was doing something correct. If you have a lazy dog, be super high pitched and excited; if you have a crazy exuberant dog, speak in a calm and collected happy tone. 

Then, for the dog "aggression" issue, the trainer brought a trained dog and walked her near mine to get a grip on how my dog reacted. We switched leashes and I observed how the trainer corrected my dog. In order to help me understand my dog's problem, this was described to me...think of the dog's behavior like a scale...my dog sees dog and he starts the "escalate" per se...eventually he reached the top of his limit and "blows up" or "reacts". So my job is to catch the behavior my dog exhibited when seeing a dog before he escalates. Hence the leash correction when he starts to tense up and get all riled. If my dog manages to "escalate," then I failed to read the body language and accordingly correct. I do not care what the other dog is doing! My dog is not allowed to lose his cool at any moment. It is my job to protect him from crazy dogs and his job, only under certain circumstances to protect me from the crazy humans, lol. If we are going to own dogs, it is our job to monitor their behavior and keep the well-behaved doggy citizens.

That being said, everyone's individual cases are specific and may require different approaches. This is just my specific experience that I thought I would share in case that it serves to help you. I would definitely recommend finding a good trainer and getting trained so that you can train your dog--it is a very rewarding process despite the bumps in the road. I find that it causes the dog to respect you, as well as desire your attention even more. Just trust your gut and you will be fine. I wish you the best of luck! Go get 'em!

*Oh, and just to add, now that I feel that I can control my dog properly, I no longer use a choker...now we just use a flat collar, negative/positive verbal markers and the occasional treat/affectionate pat.*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, Ok, then, I have perfect dogs. They will pull on the lead, but they will not drag me across the lawn. Why? Because I do not conquer or control them by force. 

Frankly, if a great working dog trainer would still be dragged across the lawn after having a dog living as a pet, from ten weeks to 16 months, then I wouldn't call her a great working dog trainer. 

The definition of a good trainer might be different for us. 

A 60 pound husky can pull 700 pounds or so. A 60 pound GSD, can certainly pull any of us across the lawn if it wants to. Ok, we are talking by the neck and not a harness, but the vast majority of GSD owners are not reigning in adolescent GSDs by brut force alone. And, no, if the dog sees a rabbit or deer and wants to chase, it STILL won't drag me across the lawn. If it starts to pull, and I say, Eh! it will stop and come back to me. 

Now I know that does not make my dogs perfect. But there are not many of us here that are going to be putting up with a young dog that can drag them into a dog fight. We would ALL be landing in civil court, GSDs would be banned all over, and they wouldn't be #2 on the AKC popularity lists. Old people wouldn't own them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, I drop things because of my hands. My dogs, all of the adults, not sure of Quinny yet, they come back to me, distractions or no distractions when this happens. We can control our dogs without having them in a death grip. 

If this weren't so, how could GSDs be used as service dogs? How could someone in a wheel chair control their dog if it is going to go after a dog or deer or rabbit? How could someone who uses the dog for balance and can barely walk, use a GSD, if GSDs are just dogs and not perfect. 

Perfect is in heaven, but dogs can be trained to work with their humans regardless of distractions -- that includes thunder, fire crackers, gunfire, men with baseball caps, dogs, etc. And people train their own service dogs, from puppy on up. 

My brother had an insane working line bitch. Jazzy. She had so much energy and drive, she couldn't settle down. Couldn't. My parent's took care of her for a week when she was a year old, and she tried to EAT their neighbor who was walking their dog, and my parents said "never again." But when my brother's boy friend, who weighed in at about 90 pounds, with rhumatoid arthritis in both hips, needing two hip replacements, that the wouldn't do because he was dying of AIDS, who could hardly walk at all. That crazy maniac bitch who ate my antenna and went through my window (glass and all) 3 separate times, would walk down one step, turn, and wait for Billy to get down one step. Then she would go down another step, turn and wait. We are talking a 1 year old dog with ZERO training. Why could this super-frail man manage this dog? Because he had a bond with her. THIS is what this breed is capable of.


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

selzer said:


> We are talking a 1 year old dog with ZERO training. Why could this super-frail man manage this dog? Because he had a bond with her. THIS is what this breed is capable of.


He wasn't managing her, she was working with him. Your post has given me alot to think about. Thank you for that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You haven't trained dogs till you've been dragged thru the mud!



middleofnowhere said:


> I've seen a great working dog and handler when the dog decided to "go" and the handler didn't have a chance to get in a command. However, the dog did not "get away from her" - she held on to the lead.


https://www.facebook.com/100002313853536/videos/989603417793444/


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

My point was dogs are not perfect you will have challenges to face it does not necessarily mean you do not have a bond -will the bond grow when you get through these issues definitely. The people who have issues with their dog and there is no bond or these people cant form a bond and they have no interest in getting over the issues- these are the dogs found at the animal shelter.

That story reminds me of my super hyper 2 year old boy taking my mom's hand(his grandma) and gently guiding her down each step very slowly and carefully so she would not fall. He did this all on his own he was very intune with her needs.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> Well, Ok, then, I have perfect dogs. They will pull on the lead, but they will not drag me across the lawn. Why? Because I do not conquer or control them by force.
> 
> Frankly, if a great working dog trainer would still be dragged across the lawn after having a dog living as a pet, from ten weeks to 16 months, then I wouldn't call her a great working dog trainer.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying the bond doesn't play a part, but I do think there is more to it in this situation. Maya can be very smart and eager to please, but she also is extremely excitable and "nervy" and can therefore easily get ramped up to the point where she literally cannot think straight. The things she has learned go right out the window, as well as any concern for her own comfort - there were times in the past where she would literally be hurting herself on the prong, lunging and choking herself, because she was not in a state to think clearly.

In addition to any other work we need to do, I firmly believe she needs help "resetting" the ways she's learned to respond to certain stimuli, so that she can then relearn better ways to respond - better for her, for me, and for other dogs and people. This is the training I feel she and I need to focus on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J-Boo said:


> I'm not saying the bond doesn't play a part, but I do think there is more to it in this situation. Maya can be very smart and eager to please, but she also is extremely excitable and "nervy" and can therefore easily get ramped up to the point where she literally cannot think straight. The things she has learned go right out the window, as well as any concern for her own comfort - there were times in the past where she would literally be hurting herself on the prong, lunging and choking herself, because she was not in a state to think clearly.
> 
> In addition to any other work we need to do, I firmly believe she needs help "resetting" the ways she's learned to respond to certain stimuli, so that she can then relearn better ways to respond - better for her, for me, and for other dogs and people. This is the training I feel she and I need to focus on.


 
The dog is who she is. 

The whole time we are training the dog, we are training ourselves, learning how to manage the dog, learning what triggers the dog, learning when we need to act, to prevent a reaction from the dog.

My sister adopted two girls from Guatamala who came home when they were 9 months and 1 year old. My sister had two baby bjorn potty chairs and she immediately started using them. 

Within a few months the older girl was totally potty trained, and the younger was still working on it. My sister would be rushing her off to the potty every half an hour or so (I don't know). The kid was having almost no accidents, but she wasn't trained, my sister was trained. The takeaway training happens in the parent or in this case the dog owner, when you have a dog that seems to have challenges.

You are basically training yourself to be aware of your surroundings, the dog's state/body language, and to change directions, give a command, whatever, before the dog reaches the point where she will react. 

As you get better and better at this, incidents become fewer and fewer, the dog's trust in your ability to protect her gets better, hopefully the distance the dog needs for her bubble becomes smaller, and as the dog matures things get a whole lot better.

But the training is in the person. Mostly in the person. The dog is a dog, and if we focus on changing the dog, then how do we change the dog? We change the dog by changing how we behave. If that makes any sense.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You haven't trained dogs till you've been dragged thru the mud!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/100002313853536/videos/989603417793444/



Looks like she could of used those spikes that go on the bottom of your shoes or a sled!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

J-Boo said:


> I'm not saying the bond doesn't play a part, but I do think there is more to it in this situation. Maya can be very smart and eager to please, but she also is extremely excitable and "nervy" and can therefore easily get ramped up to the point where she literally cannot think straight. The things she has learned go right out the window, as well as any concern for her own comfort - there were times in the past where she would literally be hurting herself on the prong, lunging and choking herself, because she was not in a state to think clearly.
> 
> *In addition to any other work we need to do, I firmly believe she needs help "resetting" the ways she's learned to respond to certain stimuli, so that she can then relearn better ways to respond - better for her, for me, and for other dogs and people. This is the training I feel she and I need to focus on*.


Then that's what you do. You know your dog, and yourself, best. I've seen other dogs related to yours and this behavior is genetic. It is not a failure of your training. You know the caliber of trainers being discussed. They have more experience and knowledge than anyone on this thread. And you don't need to defend your thoughts. Make your phone calls and do what you feel you need to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jenny720 said:


> Looks like she could of used those spikes that go on the bottom of your shoes or a sled!


Right! lol I can laugh. I've been face planted twice. Once by my girl at 6 months who hit the end of a 30' lunge line while I was turned talking to my husband. And the second during protection when one guy was holding my line and he no more than said to the helper "you sure trust your pole, don't you?" and he let go. THWAP!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Then that's what you do. You know your dog, and yourself, best. I've seen other dogs related to yours and this behavior is genetic. It is not a failure of your training. You know the caliber of trainers being discussed. They have more experience and knowledge than anyone on this thread.* And you don't need to defend your thoughts*. Make your phone calls and do what you feel you need to do.


This exactly.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Right! lol I can laugh. I've been face planted twice. Once by my girl at 6 months who hit the end of a 30' lunge line while I was turned talking to my husband. And the second during protection when one guy was holding my line and he no more than said to the helper "you sure trust your pole, don't you?" and he let go. THWAP!


lol When owning animals they will be moments of humbling 
It adds flavor to the history together :laugh:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jenny720 said:


> lol When owning animals they will be moments of humbling
> It adds flavor to the history together :laugh:


Humbling...Yes. My girl also put me flat on my back at the feet of an agility judge during a trial. Uhhh...I think we're done here. :crazy:


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