# Should I pay... or fight it?



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I don't want to get into specifics too much, but I recieved a "dog runs after, or chases motor vehicles" citation recently because my dog-hating, rather strange "neighbor" (lives 1/3 mile up a dirt road) called the police and made a false complaint. 

He told the police my dogs chased his car... I talked to the police because I was so sure I was in the right and said two dogs were on leashes and thus were not chasing a car (and wouldn't anyway- I leash them because of this neighbor so he will not have any excuse to call the police). My old guy was walking right next to me and I grabbed his collar and moved to the side of the road as the car went by- dog can't even "chase" if he wanted to (stiff back legs). And he made no move after the vehicle. 

The policeman said I'd had a warning (guy had made a previous false complaint 3 years ago) and gave me the ticket.

I can either pay $50 or go fight it in court.

I don't want to stress over this, but I'm also willing to spend something to pay a lawyer to help me with this situation. There have been so many times when this neighbor has been flying down that road with a plow and I've had to jump to the side to avoid getting hit on a dark, snowy morning.

He told the police that if the dog touched his car, the paint job would cost him $7K, which I highly doubt given many things but the condition of the vehicle for one, and that my dogs weren't anywhere near it for another. 

While I did nothing wrong, is this even worth fighting? There is NO leash law in town, just a control law. It is tiny town and police are AC. When I took my dogs out this morning, the police SUV was cruising up and down the dead-end dirt road, which was a bit spooky but I went on our normal walk. I often run with my dogs on the dirt back roads in town with them off leash but under control with plenty of vehicles passing. No issues. This neighbor has passed me at least 50 times over the past few years, so I'm not sure why he decided to call the police this time, but he did. 

It just seems so wrong... but I don't know what to do. I only have 4 days to pay the ticket, but paying is admission of guilt. I am so frustrated with this whole situation. I have talked to this neighbor and it went nowhere. He made up things and said he was afraid my dogs would jump through the windows into his car after him (with no reason to think this could ever happen). 

It was especially galling when the policeman told me that his personal dog is always getting lose and running the neighborhood because of his "hound nose" and when I asked if he got a $50 fine every time he said nobody calls the cops on him... no surprise there! But just wow. Again, my dogs don't run the neighborhood, ever, and did nothing illegal.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

What happened to proof? I would think the police would need proof of this. There must be a complaint or harassment claim against false complaints. You can turn and say his dog scraped your car since you need no proof. It can be a ping pong game back and forth. If you pay the fine for this accusation, it does not mean your neighbors false complaints will stop but will be evidence that you are in agreement to this complaint and may give future complaints more strength. I would seek a lawyer for advise. 

I had a neighbor many years ago who swore my very old and arthritic german shepherd killed one of her chickens. She had said she saw a german shepherd running down the street, my german Shepherd never killed any animals even small ones nor ever wanted to chase them. At the time he can barely get up to get a drink. I just laughed at her and knew what Kind of person she was. A few years later she found out foxes killed her chickens. Some you see what they want or truly believe.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I don’t see how a fine could be charged solely on the word of another without video or something to back it up, seems odd. I would fight an accusation I didn’t do and I would use a go-pro for walks here on out.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was thinking small town politics might make it worth paying. But if you admit guilt once...
I would speak to a lawyer about your neighbor making false accusations AND the police issuing a fine on hearsay.


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Would you be prepared to make a complaint of wrongful police practice, after having a friendly chat to the police officer about it?


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Ugh how infuriating. I would appear and fight it. A payment is an admission of guilt. And plus if it continues, what is to stop him? If it isnt too much trouble I would also wear a GoPro on walks. It stinks to have to do that, but if you think the harassment and false accusations will continue...


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

Fight it, no doubt.

If you pay the fine, it is on record that you admitted guilt, because you didn't dispute it.


----------



## truckola (Nov 3, 2013)

Fight, what happens when he gets a scratch and bleeds and your dog "Bit" him. May be video cams pointing at the street for video of his driving?


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I would fight it, simply for the fact that if you pay it and _anything_ happens with your dog later on down the road, you will already have a record of an out of control dog and will be almost immediately guilty of something new in anyone's mind. Plus, if you pay it once, your neighbor may continue to make false complaints, and you won't be taken seriously if you decide to fight new charges later. Your dog was guilty of chasing cars once. Why wouldn't he/she be guilty this time? Get a lawyer.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

If you look up my court records, you’ll find a zillion speeding tickets (lead foot, not my fault ?), two marriages and there quick demise into divorce, and last, but not least, a dog at large citation. That citation was from over 20yrs ago, but still shows up on my record. 

What happened was a my idiot ex would take the trash out, and leave the side gate wide open, and our puppy would book it. Wasn’t even my fault, but I’m the one that answered the door, so I got the fine and the record for it.

So for me, I would take the time and fight it. In our town, 3 of any type of dog related occurrences lead to very heavy fines, and they seize your dog. 

For me, it would be worth it on principle alone.


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

Once proven "not guilty" then if he keeps pulling this BS, they will ignore him, knowing that he is just being spiteful.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

fight it. I listen to our county's animal control board podcasts. If your AC is anything like mine, they should be reasonable. Just state your case clearly and with any solid evidence you have (any thing on a phone needs to be printed in hard copy). Without proof the case should be dropped.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Yup I would fight it and it's too bad you didn't fight the first one. I definitely would contest this one. my thoughts, since there isn't proof it probably will be dropped but that's just a guess. And yes it's worth contesting and the hassle. Otherwise that will be two admissions of guilt.


----------



## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

I would go to court. Fight it. Explain that you have a difficult neighbor, with a chip on his shoulder. If he doesn't have video, can't prove it, unless he tries to bring someone with him and say he had a witness. They, you get to dispute the testimony and indicate his witness is lying. In my State, if it's a traffic ticket, and an officer doesn't appear in court with you, the ticket is dropped. So, perhaps your neighbor might not even appear in court to lie.



Getting a lawyer for this would be like getting a lawyer for a traffic ticket.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

This is also why I pay for dog tags. When these issues come before the board, before they even start looking at the case, they find out if rabies vaccination is up to date ($25 if not) and the dog has its county tags (another $25 if not) and if the dog can be proven At Large. ($50 if so, I think) After all of this is established then they start getting information about what happened.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You've had one warning, now a ticket. If you pay it and plead guilty and the guy does this to you again, what is the next step? 

personally, if I can prove my innocence, I would fight it. I'm just not sure how they can cite you without proof that it happened. So weird.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Maybe since there isn't an ac and the ticket allows to contest it, it is a quick way to shift responsability to investigate from the PD to the courts. Also probably as Car2ner described. 

I think in some cases maybe a lot of cases you go before a magistrate who determines whether or not there is grounds for a case to be heard or if it should be tossed out.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

We had a guy who would accuse our dogs of barking and waking him up at 6am. He would wake my house and my sleeping dogs to say we were waking him. Obviously it wasn't our dogs. After the 3rd warrantless call to the PD, the PD asked if we wanted to press harassment charges. We didn't because I think the elderly man had the beginnings of dementia. But, just illustrating that a string of unfounded complaints can put the ball in your court, if you fight it.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Thanks I agree on the fight it- but I also wonder if I could pay nolo contendre just to avoid the hassle of court time and hiring a lawyer. 

This morning, out on the road with the dogs, police SUV cruises by again. I am starting to feel uncomfortable in my own home. Like they are watching or doing surveillance and then driving by when I am out with the dogs which is just not right. At all. I have no record - a couple speeding tickets over the years of driving, but nothing bigger than that. I work full time for a local small business in the community. I don't make trouble. 

I don't want to escalate this- if paying it would stop the escalation I would just pay, but it seems like it could do nothing and just be admission of guilt so next time, the guy can do whatever he wants. 

This neighbor is certified strange in many ways, but he's also been a townie for 20 years, so he's got that going for him big time. 

I've probably been up and down that road 1,500 times since I've lived here- often twice a day... I just don't know what to do now. I hate this situation so much.


----------



## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

I'd fight it and go to court OR where ever it ended up going....I'd want my side of the "story" on record....JMO but since this is the second event-so to speak I'd be afraid this bozo may claim the third time your dog(s) had attacked and/or bitten him...all it would take would be for him to have an injury from what ever or how ever...he calls the cops--cop comes and believe HIS story and not yours..it very well may hot end well for you or your dogs....


Many times people like him have a history of pulling crap like this before-if not about dogs something else.......I'd talk to any of my friends and/or neighbors who know me and my dogs if they'd be willing to speak in court....again there have been too many threads right here that sometimes don't end well it's not worth the risk in my opinion to hope this jerk is all at once going to become a nice guy over night...just not worth the risk to your dogs in the long run...get something on record in a court...doing any thing else very well may make you and the dogs appear guilty later down the road...


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Saco said:


> Thanks I agree on the fight it- but I also wonder if I could pay nolo contendre just to avoid the hassle of court time and hiring a lawyer.
> 
> This morning, out on the road with the dogs, police SUV cruises by again. I am starting to feel uncomfortable in my own home. Like they are watching or doing surveillance and then driving by when I am out with the dogs which is just not right. At all. I have no record - a couple speeding tickets over the years of driving, but nothing bigger than that. I work full time for a local small business in the community. I don't make trouble.
> 
> ...


You are in Canada are you not? If so then a lot of the suing that goes on in the US is not applicable here. However as I have discovered a ton of smaller places have so truly backward AC laws that may not swing in your favor if you admit guilt.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't have any advice to offer, I can certainly understand conflict over barking or dogs running loose, but can't understand what could possibly be objectionable about walking leashed dogs down the street? Are there other dog owners in the area? Has he harassed them as well? Perhaps they could back you up. If it's financially viable, I might consult a lawyer for advice moving forward, even just meeting for a half hour may be enough? I'm not sure how they could ticket you for something that is just his word against yours. Are there other loose dogs along the road?--could he have mistaken someone else's dogs for yours?


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Have your day in court. It's your constitutional right.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Saco the police aren't necessarily trying to cause trouble for you or targeting you.They may be a help to you in court since your dog is being perfectly well behaved when the officer is observing.Jot down the car number or plate number for a witness in your defence.Flag him/her down and talk to them if you can do so calmly.Try and get video to show your dog's nonreactive behavior.Wishing for the best outcome for you


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

I would flag down the cop and ask him/her, How is it going? Strike up a conversation. Once they realize how well behaved your dogs are, and how polite you are, maybe they would back off. All the cops have to go on right now is what the idiot neighbor has said.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree with suggestions for videos and sound recordings .......... it was advice I was given due to a threatening neighbor. [I was one of several who called animal control after being bitten by her at large dog-ultimately many people and some torn up dogs later, the dog was taken and PTS but they said a body cam or a go pro is really really good to have.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh. I like the Go Pro idea. There is your proof going forward.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I talked to the town clerk and told them I'd be consulting a lawyer. The ticket said I had 4 days to pay but didn't specify weekends or business, so it was strange. I asked him to make sure to take an official note that I called and told him I was going to be talking with a lawyer just in case they try to be sticklers about the timing.

I tried to get a video on my phone today but it was in selfie mode and I couldn't stop it in time- which goes to show why a go pro is a good idea! 

If I can calm down enough I will flag down the police next time I see them (tomorrow?) and have a chat. 

Unfortunately, I am in US- sue country. 

I'll see what the lawyer says- never done this before, but I'm talking with him tomorrow. Consult is free, but I'd bet actually hiring him would be at least $500, which may be worth it. 

Will update...


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Saco said:


> I talked to the town clerk and told them I'd be consulting a lawyer. The ticket said I had 4 days to pay but didn't specify weekends or business, so it was strange. I asked him to make sure to take an official note that I called and told him I was going to be talking with a lawyer just in case they try to be sticklers about the timing.
> 
> I tried to get a video on my phone today but it was in selfie mode and I couldn't stop it in time- which goes to show why a go pro is a good idea!
> 
> ...


 If you do get recordings make sure you can send the video to your animal control board. If it is only on your phone or personal device they won't accept it. I can see how they might send you notice to appear before AC but I don't understand how they can give you a ticket without proof of offense.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I was able to download audio from my phone. You know the one where my neighbor said "I will kill you" repetadly and then email it to the police officer handling my complaint. Basically what happened that day was she started following me and I turned on my voice recorder on the phone. This and swerving her car at me had become a routine experience; several times I had to jump on the curb to avoid her. 

I think seeing me with the go pro at all times (I just wear it around my waist) and the knowledge on her part that I recorded her has changed her behavior just like she quit coming to my house banging on the door after I put up security cameras. She also gives me a wide berth when she is driving. Several officers and one attorney suggested that I use the device; I had considered getting a restraining order but I felt "what if" they did not actually give me or or "what if" it was not strong enough?

Wearing the cam was a real hassle at first but it has become 2nd nature. If I had it to do over I would get a police body cam. Not any more expensive and much longer lasting battery and recording duration.

If you do record I would have a collection of typical walks where cars pass by and your dogs are non reactive and save any where your neighbor's car drives by.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Is there any way you can walk your dogs with out passing that house or drive to another area at least until this is settled. If your neighbor is that strange, who knows what he's thinking or what he is triggered by when he sees them.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I know that if it was me, I'd probably walk them on another road, even if it meant getting in the car and driving. But I also hate confrontations and conflict and have a tenancy to avoid it even when I should assert myself. You have every right to walk the road near your home with your leashed, well-behaved dogs, but if you wanted to avoid potential drama until you've talked to your lawyers and fought the ticket, I certainly wouldn't blame you.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Actually, If you have a town square or park and there are officers doing foot patrol or directing traffic etc, you can start walking your dogs through town at those times so others can see how well they behave. I did this from the get go with mine with that specific intention. It paid off big time 7 yrs later. People do observe and take note even when you don't think that they are. The last sentence is a paraphrase that I had read on here yrs ago and what sparked the intent. It may help you or others also.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK just from the initial post - where are you located SACO?


How it works in my jurisdiction, is you either pay the citation or show up in court. The complainant may not even appear. If you didn't document the incident elsewhere, use your post here as documentation. It's time consuming but likely worth contesting as the charges are not accurate. I had my neighbor cited repeatedly for his dogs on my property. I took photos. I took down times and dates. It's a PIA but if I hadn't shown up, the case would have been thrown out and the problem would have continued. If you show up and prevail - and it sounds like you would prevail - the neighbor may be less likely to continue filing complaints. If you don't, he will likely continue down his path.


So that's my take of it in a rural central Oregon county.


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

Saco said:


> I talked to the town clerk and told them I'd be consulting a lawyer. The ticket said I had 4 days to pay but didn't specify weekends or business, so it was strange. I asked him to make sure to take an official note that I called and told him I was going to be talking with a lawyer just in case they try to be sticklers about the timing.
> 
> I tried to get a video on my phone today but it was in selfie mode and I couldn't stop it in time- which goes to show why a go pro is a good idea!
> 
> ...


Very much worth 500 bucks. Like Jchrest said, records are forever. Fight it now, or forever hold your peace!

In my opinion, unless the guy is 95, and ready to croak, I would move if possible. Some people are impossible to make happy. He/she/it will find something else to complain about.


----------



## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I also like the GoPro idea. And if you can, don't place it in an obvious spot. When you use your phone to record, people know right away you're recording. Most people will change their behavior when they know they're being recorded. So if you can, place it in an area on your body or on the dog where it's not so obvious, then the chance of you catching something iincreases. It's sad that we live in a time now where we need dashcams in cars and GoPros on dogs to protect ourselves in case of lawsuits.

I use something called NextDoor ap on my phone that connects people in local neighborhoods. Anyway, there was a posting last week about neighbors complaining about a neighbor's two dogs barking all the time. (A lot of dog related complaints...including people not picking up after their dogs, etc.) They were talking about whether they should file a complaint to the authorities about it. I asked them all if any one of them actually talked to the offender face to face instead of immediately filing a complaint. No one's talked to them in person yet. I told them they should be neighborly and give the person a chance to correct the problem by either sending the dogs to daycare or training or whatever. Anyway I won't bore you with the rest of the story but all these problems are making me contemplate getting a GoPro myself to protect my dog and I in case I encounter some problem neighbor. (I've talked to other dog owners around me over the years and there have been litigious-happy neighbors.) Well, I figure I've got dashcams in my car and cams in my house, why not one for the dog? Meanwhile I can also get some good clips for the dog's IG page.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

You do not need a lawyer. At least in Oregon, you do not need a lawyer for this. Not yet anyway. How these citations work here (my experience trying to get some control over my neighbor's dogs) - you are given a court date. You show up, the citing officer shows up, the complainant shows up. The judge calls your case, you get sworn in (if you prefer not to "so help me God" you can request an alternative oath). The judge will ask the three of you questions about the event. Chances are the complainant will not show up. That will be easiest most likely. Whomever shows up, the judge will make a ruling, either dismissing the case (and fine) or not. BUT do either pay or show up. Be as respectful as you can (I was reprimanded for saying I didn't know what the boys were smoking in response to their fabricated story). Probably just state "My dogs did not chase Mr. BS's car. My dogs were on leash. I was with them." (It would be tempting to add "We did not run after the car." but probably not advisable...) 



I spent way too much time sitting in court with repeated citations against my neighbor letting his dogs run amuck. It came to a head when people were afraid to get out of their cars to open my gate because of the dogs. 



I contemplated setting up security cameras on my gate area (it is set back) to record his dogs but settled for still shots from my point and shoot. It was a PIA to remember to take the camera when I walked but it worked.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have a cheap chest harness for my go pro and I took off the shoulder straps and just wear it around my waist and it works fine though I run audio through a voice recorder on my phone as the case covers the microphone on the go pro and it mutes some sound [I just ordered a new case that does not do it so I am going to test that part out-but I don't want an external mike as I walk rain or shine]


.......but I seriously would look into one of these unless you want a go pro for other fun things (We use it for kayaking etc.) because I can only get an hour on a battery charge on my go pro so I have to carry spare batteries if I am out for awhile. 

https://smile.amazon.com/MIUFLY-Wat...s=police+cams&qid=1561055960&s=gateway&sr=8-4


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I'd like a go pro anyway for training, so I will look into getting an older model- I don't need the newest and absolute best.

Also, I thought about buying this creepy dog and sitting him at the edge of my property looking toward the road. Honestly, it will be useful as a dog training aid anyway, and it's not super pricey. 

Creepy though! 

https://www.amazon.com/Melissa-Doug...d=1561056666&s=gateway&sr=8-2#customerReviews


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Saco said:


> I'd like a go pro anyway for training, so I will look into getting an older model- I don't need the newest and absolute best.
> 
> Also, I thought about buying this creepy dog and sitting him at the edge of my property looking toward the road. Honestly, it will be useful as a dog training aid anyway, and it's not super pricey.
> 
> ...


LOL! We use to use an inflatable fake owl on the side of the house for deterrent..I dont quite remember for what. But he had a name...Horace..and he was awesome!


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

CometDog said:


> LOL! We use to use an inflatable fake owl on the side of the house for deterrent..I dont quite remember for what. But he had a name...Horace..and he was awesome!


Sorry but that stuffed shepherds face does look owl-ish around the eyes. lol.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I talked with the lawyer, and he'll be looking into it for me, it's not even that expensive, but he's a friend of good friend.

I was passed by a car with out of state plates on the road today, a car I've seen before. It was coming fast behind me, so I got out my phone and filmed it as it went past. The car stopped about 20 feet past me and rolled down the window. I stood there filming and slapping at mosquitoes. I thought maybe they'd actually talk to me, which would be cool because I would love to just resolve this issue and communication goes a long way. But they stuck their phone out the window and started filming me. I said "didn't you say you were afraid the dogs would jump in through the window?" No response. Dogs are just standing there calmly. Good dogs.

Finally the car left and I finished my walk. I decided to call the police (police are animal control) and report the incident first, just in case they tried to claim my dogs chased the car or something else. I explained that I felt very vulnerable and we had a pretty long discussion. Anyway, police will go talk with them, and I have video proof if they claim the dogs did anything remotely "illegal". 

I hate to go down this route, really, but I need to show I'm willing to defend myself and am paying attention. I have every right to use that public town-owned road, and I worked and work very hard to buy the house I chose in part because of access to the non-motorized portion of that road. 

At the moment, I'm not going to pay that ticket. I'll see what my lawyer finds and go from there. 

Advice to anyone else in this scenario is to talk to a good lawyer. 

Hopefully this can be peacefully resolved as that is truly the end goal.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It will be interesting to see what your lawyer says. Here, it is pretty simple and a lawyer would be overkill. I don't know what further ramifications would be there for you and your dogs should the neighbor persist. Simply contesting the charge by showing up and telling what happened will likely discourage any further complaints. Here I found the judge very fair (of course she ruled in my favor!) The court system was very familiar with the family, too. It was a pain in the butt because the fellow persisted and I needed to file several complaints, document everything, etc. Just the need to do all this is going to discourage your neighbor from filing more unfounded complaints. 



BUT it is important to either pay the citation or contest it. Don't ignore it.




BTW I love the "creepy" dog. I have a funny story about life size, relatively realistic stuffed dogs.
not for this thread but hey...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are going to video then I would not potentially escalate the issue by commenting to them.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Jax- you are right. Commenting certainly won't de-escalate the situation. The filming also didn't help, but I wanted to make sure there could be no false complaints this time around. 

I really do wish we could just have a conversation and resolve this whole thing. But I have tried and it was a waste of time and I'm not sure I could keep my cool through another conversation like that. 

I'd always give the advice to communicate with neighbors first, before bringing in others- because that is by far the best solution. Unfortunately in this scenario, that ship has sailed.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes don't be so obvious with the camera; what did he say about filming? The advice I was given by the polic concerning my neighbor was to not say a word to her even if she said something and, yes, the camera needs to be made less conspicuous.

I agree with your sentiment on communicating and feel so much could be resolve through just talking but some folks just don't roll that way.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah I would avoid this neighbor like the plague until things are settled. They can purposely start trouble with the dogs and video that. Good ideas suggested earlier about walking in town around people or far away from this person. You never no who your dealing with.


----------



## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Saco said:


> I'd like a go pro anyway for training, so I will look into getting an older model- I don't need the newest and absolute best.
> 
> Also, I thought about buying this creepy dog and sitting him at the edge of my property looking toward the road. Honestly, it will be useful as a dog training aid anyway, and it's not super pricey.
> 
> ...



If only this one was weatherproof....

German Shepherd Dog Life-Size Statue


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

That is a nice statue- very realistic.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But sometimes it doesn't work like that. If you have to take off of work, then there's $50 right there. Pay the ticket. If you can plead "no contest" then you are not actually agreeing to being wrong, but not fighting it, because it will cost you too much to do so. 

On the other hand, what is stopping him from doing this once a week? He is wasting the court's time and the police time for non-events. There is absolutely NO way to prove a non-event. So, it becomes his word against yours. You cannot video-tape, because, he can say that it happened when you weren't videotaping. This is why the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. 

If it comes down to he said, you said, and the dog has been ticketed on multiple occasions, then that might play into it in the absence of proof. So yeah, if you can, fight it. And if the yayhoo is working, then he will have to miss work to go to court over this. I think. I don't think that only the officer would have to go. Maybe. I think what would happen, is that you would go to court, and they would set a court date, at which time the officer and the accuser would have to be present. But I could be all wet. 

It seems with animals, due process sometimes doesn't happen. Like, animal control can come in and take your dogs. It is easier for them to remove dogs that are possibly being abused or neglected than it is for them to take children out of abusive/neglective situations. If your GSD is on leash, properly licensed and vaccinated, and a Yorkie-mix runs up to it, barking, and your dog bites it, which kills it, then there should be no question, one dog owner was following the law, one was not, but we can't guaranty anything when it comes to critters. 

Fight it if you can. Take a hit for dog owners everywhere. Either way, I think you lose.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The justification I see for filming is documenting. Documenting goes a long way. People will lie in court so having photographs/films will bolster your case. The reason for contesting this is that the OP maintains the charge is unsubstantiated. This neighbor seems to be a bit of a PIA and may continue to bring allegations unless he is shut down. I would not want unwarranted allegations on my record.


----------



## wildwolf60 (Apr 13, 2001)

So, what ever happened with this issue? Hope you were able to fight the ticket and get some proof of harassment from that neghbor!


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Update as of today.

Last week I was jogging down the road with my dogs and the "neighbor" as usual comes flying down the road- which is about 1/4 all downhill - steep with poor sightlines. I panic a bit and run with my dogs off the road and halfway up the embankment. The loose gravel/sand is slippery and steep and I end up falling on the gravel and getting some bad road rash, but at least avoiding the vehicle.

I took photos of the injuries but didn't call the police. I was sore for several days. 

It's a lose lose for me no matter what I do- the neighbor has the power. And he's flouting it. Call the police- sure they'll come out and I'll have to spend an hour of my morning talking with them instead of going to work. Then the police will go have a chat with "Bo" and nothing will happen except Bo will feel more empowered next time. 

If I don't run off the road I am risking severe injury or death to me and my dogs. And while Bo would hopefully get arrested for this- dogs are "just" property and if he killed a dog, he's probably get off completely. If he injured or killed me, well, I still lose big time! Even if he goes to prison for years. If I'm badly hurt- or killed- that won't help me. 

It's a super frustrating situation. 

While buying a bodycam seems really extreme, and I don't have a ton of extra cash, it is necessary at this juncture. I am also avoiding the road for now until I can get that bodycam. 

This is small town policing at it's worst, unfortunately. Having dogs makes me vulnerable to harassment. And having German shepherds is a big part of it. Bo complained to the police that my dogs were running on his property this winter. I told the police that there was no way the tracks were from my dogs, and they did some "investigation" and discovered it was another neighbor's golden retriever and lab. This happened TWICE until they investigated. No tickets for the other neighbor. Lots of threats from the police about giving me a dog at large ticket. But, you know, golden retrievers. No apologies, either from Bo or police. Of course.

Anyway. 

As for the ticket- my choices are go to court and have to deal with time off work and stress. Or pay $50. I talked to my lawyer and if you pay the ticket the language of the statute says payment means you are NOT admitting guilt. It's a "civil forfeiture". My lawyer is going to make some calls and see if he can figure out what this really means.

I'm just so frustrated. Imagine if my dogs had cause the bruising and scrapes I got from scrambling out of his way. You can just imagine he'd have all our heads. Makes me super angry to think about it too much so I try not to dwell there. Dog laws are quite skewed against dog owners if you do some research.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Update:

The good news is there has been no further contact or incidents with this neighbor.

The bad news is I have about a week to pay the fine or it goes to court so it is decision time.

I was able to get the name of the complainant and see the complaint. It was hysterical- as in not "ha ha funny" but as in crazy. Tons of emotion, hyperbole, and outright lies. I think I would stand a decent chance if this went to court, because she's hardly be considered a reliable witness but the stress and time off work, is more than likely not worth it. This whole thing has consumed so much emotional energy as it is...

I do want to make sure that MY written statement is added to the file. Then I will likely pay the fine- because it is not an admission of guilt to do so, it simply means I waived the right to a trial- and be done with the whole thing.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Thanks for the update ... But I have a caution to consider in this plan.


You think that this will quell the obnoxious neighbor? Yes, disputing things like this takes time and effort. However, submitting may have it's own repercussions.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

You make a good point. I have until next Friday. The lawyer I talked to advised I pay it. The cop that I originally dealt with is out on medical leave for an undefined period. There is a new officer in charge who seemed astonished I would even consider fighting such a minor charge in court. 

But none of these people are dog people, or understand the investment I've put into my animals and how much this matters to me. 

I just don't know.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I've been following your thread and cheering you on silently. 
It's quite the dilemma to decide just to pay the fine and hopefully be done with it,or go through the aggravation of the legal system.Wishing for the best outcome for you.


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

I'm not sure how much I would let a cop that is not a dog person, influence my decision on fighting a false charge against my dog. 

Not sure I would trust a lawyer either, being as they are trained from a young age how to lie and influence. LOL!

Sounds like neither of them want to deal with it and that is why they are trying to talk you out of it.

I would fight it. I think you would easily win. You sound like a good person. Calm, cool and collected. When you are in front of a judge, they see that. They will also see the other guy is a loon. He may not even show up, and you would win by default.

Write down everything, keep a journal and be respectful to the judge. You will be out of there in no time.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Does anyone know if a CGC and/or proof of dog sports titles ever count towards proof of dog character in a case like this? 

It's super stressful, though. I figure if I pay it, it is done and over- no more wasted energy fretting over this. The neighbor owes over $8,000 in unpaid property taxes, he can't just stay there forever, one would think?!


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm not sure I would pay it. There is no guarantee that your statement would be included in the file. I listen to the animal control board podcast here and I've learned that bringing evidence is very important. Don't use information on your phone. Print all photos. Email in advance any videos. Have dates and details written down. Just recently I heard a case where the board made a decision on what neighbors said without hard evidence. They accepted their statements as fact because the owner did not dispute it. I guess then it was true, but I was surprised that they people complaining didn't have any but their story to tell. That led to a "pattern of behavior" that became the basis for an additional fine. Take the time to stand up for yourself and your dog. In a perfect world you shouldn't have to, but we have to.


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

Saco said:


> Does anyone know if a CGC and/or proof of dog sports titles ever count towards proof of dog character in a case like this?
> 
> It's super stressful, though. I figure if I pay it, it is done and over- no more wasted energy fretting over this. The neighbor owes over $8,000 in unpaid property taxes, he can't just stay there forever, one would think?!


I would absolutely bring it with you! It would show the judge that you have dogs that you have spent a lot of time training, and they have proven themselves.

The "trial" is only minuets long. It is not a long drawn out process from what I have dealt with.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Saco said:


> Does anyone know if a CGC and/or proof of dog sports titles ever count towards proof of dog character in a case like this?
> 
> It's super stressful, though. I figure if I pay it, it is done and over- no more wasted energy fretting over this. The neighbor owes over $8,000 in unpaid property taxes, he can't just stay there forever, one would think?!



CGC and sport title might not mean anything if they decide the dog / handler is breaking the law. People go to court for dog bite cases with photos for their dog playing with kids and other dogs. It never helps. If the dog is at-large or bites or barks more than allowed it can be a champion and the owner can still end up fined.

But bring it just in case


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Yes, take everything you've got. Print the photos. Here I was advised by our SO guys who handle dog complaints along with a lot of other stuff to take photos of the neighbor's dogs behavior, the dogs running loose, the dogs running up to my fence, into my property and I had pages of notes, When, where, what and paired the photos with that. ... Loosing one case didn't stop the behavior. I did several complaints on the dogs... So yes, take the information you have. Likely they will make copies and return the originals to you. But - just in case, make sure you have your own copies too.


And all of us had hoped our neighbors would leave because of back taxes but somehow those got paid. It took a very long time for them to finally give up and go. Long long long story but don't count on back taxes getting the lousy neighbor out.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I'd go to court, present your version, bring your CGC and see what happens. If nothing else you may get the fine reduced.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If you have a trainer, I would work with that person to write a short, factual reference letter that the trainer can print on his or her letterhead and sign for you -- hopefully describing your training efforts, the trainer's knowledge of your dog's temperament, and of your responsible character as a diligent owner. At an administrative hearing, they're very likely to consider such things without the need for a live witness.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

So, still on the fence. Had the weekend to kind of stew on it... but didn't really get anywhere.

I pay it, and it goes away. But... 

The law states "Any person who violates a provision of (statute #) shall be guilty of a violation; provided that if such person chooses to pay the civil forfeiture specified in paragraph II ($50 in my case), the person shall be deemed to have waived the right to have the case heard in district or municipal court and shall not be persecuted or found guilty of a violation of (same statute #). Any person who does not pay shall have the case disposed of in district or municipal court." 

So, what I am hung up on is does paying the fine equate to being guilty?

It's confusing. The first sentence I quoted says "shall be guilty of a violation", but then goes on with a semicolon to say if I pay I "... shall NOT be persecuted or found guilty." 

Clear as mud-right? Is being "found guilty" different from just being plain "guilty" if you pay? Or does "provided that" mean something different than I think it does?

Any lawyers or paralegals able to give their interpretation? 

My lawyer seemed to think that I would not be guilty of anything if I paid. But he also was a bit confused as to why this was such a big deal to me... but it is!


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Magwart said:


> If you have a trainer, I would work with that person to write a short, factual reference letter that the trainer can print on his or her letterhead and sign for you -- hopefully describing your training efforts, the trainer's knowledge of your dog's temperament, and of your responsible character as a diligent owner. At an administrative hearing, they're very likely to consider such things without the need for a live witness.


My training director's wife used to do this on occasion, as an expert witness for the dog's basic temperament and the handler's training. It certainly couldn't hurt.

Pay or not I am glad you brought this up. Although I don't want anyone else to be brought to court, this is still good to have foreknowledge to avoid costly mistakes.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

For those at all interested, I found this where "provided that" means "with the exception that" from- https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2015/01/20/how-to-use-provided-that/

"2) A less common meaning is “with the exception that”. This meaning is rarely used outside of legal writing. E.g.:

If the Deposit is not paid, the Seller has the right to rescind this Agreement by delivering written notice to the Purchaser within 30 days of the date of this Agreement, provided that such rescission right is not effective if the Seller has rescinded the Preliminary Agreement for the Property.
(i.e. If the Deposit is not paid the Seller has the right to rescind this Agreement except if the Seller has already rescinded the Preliminary Agreement.)

All the above comments apply to the Properties, provided that the comments concerning the Expropriation Decision do not apply as there was no equivalent for the Properties.
(i.e. All the above comments apply to the Properties except the comments concerning the Expropriation Decision.)"

So, if that applies, with the exception that if I pay the fine I am NOT found guilty of a violation.

Those statutes need a commentary just to understand them and I KNOW the cop told me I was admitting guilt if I paid.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

My interpretation is if you pay the fine - it's over and done and you cannot any longer be taken to court.Just like a traffic ticket I'm guessing.But it remains in your permanent record and your dog would have an unfavorable history.Which could cause you grief in the future if this ever comes up again.Just my uneducated guess.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

For me, if I felt I had not committed the offense, I would contest the charge. If I felt the charge had merit (ie say if my dogs were loose in the neighborhood) and that's what the charge was, I would pay it and be done with it. So far as time goes, this has already taken a lot of your time worrying about it. How are you going to feel 1. if you pay it (can you set it aside?) 2. if you go to court (that's always somewhat anxiety producing for me whether I am the person charging or the defendant) regardless of the outcome or 3. if the judge finds against you? While it sounds like "3. is unlikely - highly unlikely - .... whatever you do, it sounds like if you pay the fine, you can no longer contest the charge -- 



I guess the good news about looming decision time is that whichever way you go, it's done.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

MOW- you summed it up very well. I don't think I'd be found guilty if I went to court for many reasons- the biggest is that it didn't happen but also poor police handling, no evidence, serious inaccuracies in the witness statement, etc. However, it will indeed be anxiety producing regardless. And it is always possible to lose. 

So, yes, it is coming on decision time. 

I have wasted so much time and stress on this and even bought and put up game cams that cover the stretch of road along my property line. That way at least I may have proof if I am ever accused of this in future.


----------



## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

middleofnowhere said:


> For me, if I felt I had not committed the offense, I would contest the charge. If I felt the charge had merit (ie say if my dogs were loose in the neighborhood) and that's what the charge was, I would pay it and be done with it. So far as time goes, this has already taken a lot of your time worrying about it. How are you going to feel 1. if you pay it (can you set it aside?) 2. if you go to court (that's always somewhat anxiety producing for me whether I am the person charging or the defendant) regardless of the outcome or 3. if the judge finds against you? While it sounds like "3. is unlikely - highly unlikely - .... whatever you do, it sounds like if you pay the fine, you can no longer contest the charge --
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the good news about looming decision time is that whichever way you go, it's done.


Yep...

If you, or your dogs have done nothing wrong, you should defend yourself. You will feel better about it in the future.

If you just bow your head and pay your fine, you may come to regret it in the future. There are many things we have all done in the past that we regret. I don't know anybody that has regretted defending themselves when they have done nothing wrong.


----------



## das1 (Jan 21, 2019)

If I were put in this position. Having GSD and Rotties I could be at any time because of breed fear..I would fight it without a doubt.
If you pay it your dog gets a black mark and a "doggy jail" record. This could be used against you if something accidentally did happen down the road.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

You know what? You all who said fight it were right. I went with the advice of my lawyer and family and friends who said, just pay it, it'll all be over.

So I got a call from the cops on Monday night claiming someone saw "two german shepherds with a female owner" on Friday. No proof, nothing at all- and nothing happened- the report said the dogs were slightly ahead of the owner, and she called them and they ran back to her. A non-incident either way. This person appears to be related to this original neighbor, but Google is failing me... anyway I guess they thought it worked great once so let's have another go.

And I was issued a "dog at large" ticket! Even though the incident even as described by the cop in no way qualifies as "dog at large" per the statute. I had to bring in a copy of the actual statute to get the name of the person complaining, and the cop mumbled the name and refused to spell it and was overall incredibly unprofessional. He refused to give me the name at first, asking why I wanted it? Why- because someone is falsely accusing me, that is why! 

I know this whole thing sounds kind of crazy, or maybe people think I'm not telling the entire story but that is it- NOTHING happened to warrant this, all that happened was the neighbor's friend apparently said he saw two shepherdy dogs on a trail, and the dogs were called in to a female owner.. literally that is all. Again, dogs are allowed to be off leash if under control of the owner per state and town statutes. 

When I got home from training last night, a cop was parked in the dirt road next to my driveway. Just there. Honestly, I don't know what is happening and it is really scaring me.

I am going to hire an attorney and fight this- at this point anyone could say anything with no proof and this needs to stop. 

If anyone knows a good dog-savvy attorney, please let me know- or PM me. Thanks, and let this be a lesson to anyone else. Fight a false accusation every time!


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

That is terrifying and completely wrong. I participated in this thread a while back and don't remember every post, but this behavior would be enough for me to move out of that city ASAP, even if a total hassle and would be hard to do. No way I would stick around.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Oh no!I'm so so sorry this is happening to you.I had a similar experience with a neighbor that took a dislike to me.Why I'll never know.It involved the landlord rather than the police but she used to make up outrageous stories.It's maddening!


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sorry @Saco. I was one of the ones to suggest fighting it, based on the fact that if you search my name on our local court records, I have an at large dog charge that still shows up after 20 years. It also slows down the background process when I apply for jobs, because it shows up as criminal even though it was a civil charge. I’ve been to court multiple times trying to get it taken off, or at the very least, changed to civil, and have gotten a ruling in my favor to have the charge moved to civil (where it should have been to begin with) but still hasn’t been changed 2 years later. 

When you talk to an attorney, I would recommend naming not only the wack job neighbor, but the police dept as well for harassment. Your attorney can send a Cease-and-desist order to the correct department. I’d also file a complaint about the officer who refused to give you the name of the person reporting. It can, and likely will, get even worse. But what you are experiencing is 100% harassment. I’d also seek a restraining order against the neighbor. From previous comments you’ve made on this thread, it truly seems like your best option. 

So sorry it went sideways on you! I have a neighbor that calls 911 and tells them their backyard is on fire, and gives them my address any time fields are being burned. I had to fight in court for false reporting, and the burden of proof was on me. Even better, the neighbor who was calling is married to a fire chief, so I’m sure that did some damage career wise. Apparently they do not like us because of our “scary” dog. Which was Seiran, healing from a jaw injury, with her mouth in a tape muzzle, and a cone of shame on. At 9 weeks old. Yeah, real scary dog. Neighbors can be nightmares. I can’t wait to live with no neighbors at all.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Sigh. I'm sorry this has gone way nutty for you. But to everyone reading this, take it to heart. Don't just blow off unfounded charges. I know it's a PIA to go to court and contest this crap - and if it were true, that would be different and justify paying it. If it's not true, as much of a hassle as it may be, stand up for the truth.


----------



## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

OP... I'm sorry it's working out this way for you......I think every one would like to get along with their neighbors.....have a misunderstanding ...smooth it over and move on-put it behind you--that's what you wanted to do...but based on your posts IMO this neighbor sounded like a certifiable N-U-T !!.....I was afraid this might not end well....


Far to many lawyers??-- nowadays advise people to simply roll over and pay the fine--they try to avoid a court fight when in your case since GSDs are one of "those breeds of dogs" going to court and standing up-- is likely what should have been done.....I hope you can get things turned around in favor of you and your dogs ....and hopefully others can learn from reading this thread...Good Luck...


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you get another ticket???? Based on an basically hearsay from an unidentified person? And were you even on this trail?

I would get a new lawyer and discuss harassment from the neighbor. I'm really surprised that a police officer went to the trouble to file a ticket.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Yup- a dog at large ticket. I told them I had no knowledge of any incident. I do use those trails- but they refused to give me time or place, so it's conceivable someone did see us-- maybe? Even if someone saw us, my dogs are allows under voice control... always. And even by their own description the report was a guy saw a female owner with two shepherds, dogs didn't approach him, weren't out of control. In fact I am starting to wonder if he even called the police or even saw us or...?

Just for a bit of background- the police in this town- this officer in particular- only have a HS Diploma and background check when they start and this guy is very new. 

As my boss said he (or anyone) could call into the PD tomorrow morning and say he was chased by dogs near my house and they'd write another ticket --- or worse, with zero proof. He is pushing hard for me to go after the town for harassment. He said there is no way the law is designed to work this way. 

I'm going to hire a different lawyer, for sure. Even if it will cost me. 

JChrest- how could dog at large be a criminal charge! That's crazy- I'll need to do some research but I'm sure my lawyer will be able to give me all that information. I do wish I'd gone to court over the first bogus complaint but I thought it wasn't worth the hassle. Of course, live and learn!


----------



## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Isn't it a crime to file a false police report?

So very sorry you are going through this. This is wrong on so many levels.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

While you're fighting this, I'd keep your dogs on leash. Until you have some assurance strangers using officer Fife won't be targeting you, I'd just be very cautious.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pawsed said:


> Isn't it a crime to file a false police report?


Yes. It very much is. When I was in high school, I had a cop pull me out of work to tell me some whippy chick who thought I was after her boyfriend called the SP to say I was vandalizing cars. Only...they already knew who was doing it. So the officer pulled me out of work to tell me I could press charges and advised I do so, until he found out she was under age as well. I didn't get to press charges but I did have a police officer who protected me after that


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Saco said:


> Yup- a dog at large ticket. I told them I had no knowledge of any incident. I do use those trails- but they refused to give me time or place, so it's conceivable someone did see us-- maybe? Even if someone saw us, my dogs are allows under voice control... always. And even by their own description the report was a guy saw a female owner with two shepherds, dogs didn't approach him, weren't out of control. In fact I am starting to wonder if he even called the police or even saw us or...?
> 
> Just for a bit of background- the police in this town- this officer in particular- only have a HS Diploma and background check when they start and this guy is very new.
> 
> ...



How can they give you a ticket without any proof that it was you? Not only would I fight this one but I might see if I can get the one you pled guilty to reversed since there was nothing more than a complaint without actual proof.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

This is terrible, and bizarre! 
It's sad that when you gave in and just "paid" to get it off your back, now that seems to confirm to them that there is an issue and now things got even worse.

Anyway...
I think Steve's advice is sound and level-headed...
may have to keep them on leash until things settle down.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> How can they give you a ticket without any proof that it was you? Not only would I fight this one but I might see if I can get the one you pled guilty to reversed since there was nothing more than a complaint without actual proof.


They don't out here. The go out and observe once they have complaints. People get carried away letting their dogs run loose, animal control tickets a few, people spread the word. It goes in streaks.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> They don't out here. The go out and observe once they have complaints. People get carried away letting their dogs run loose, animal control tickets a few, people spread the word. It goes in streaks.



They don't here either. I guess our police like to have actual documentation before they are required to do paperwork.

A lawyer talking to the chief of police might end this kind of stupid.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I talked to the Animal Control officer in the town next door. She said they reserve "dog at large" tickets for the dog raiding the neighbor's trash while the owner is asleep on the couch type incidents. Anything else, usually a different law applies (or nothing applies, and there is no ticket). For example, dog raiding a chicken coop would not be at large, but either a menace or vicious- different ticket. 

This whole thing seems like such a waste of time and effort- but I am of course taking it very seriously now. With dogs' safety #1 priority.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Is the neighbor related to a police officer? Fight it. Let the original lawyer know it was bad advice.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah you would have to fight but most important I think I would be looking for a new place to live if at all possible.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> Yeah you would have to fight but most important I think I would be looking for a new place to live if at all possible.


That is a good idea if they are renting. Much harder if they own.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The end result of some number of these tickets, could be surrender of your dogs.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah you would have to fight but most important I think I would be looking for a new place to live if at all possible.
> ...


It is but if it’s possible then it is sure should be looked into.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had neighbors who hated my children and dogs because they played outside and made a little noise. Not a lot. The dogs barked in excitement when playing and the children talked and laughed. Normal noises for a family neighborhood. They couldn't do a thing about my children, so they started complaining about my barking dogs. I explained I have herding breeds and they bark when they are excited, that they needed exercise during the day and I would keep one dog inside as much as possible. The other dog, not a GSD, was an outdoor dog by choice. That inflamed them and they started reporting me to AC. AC would not come out for barking unless the got complaints from more than one household, so they lied and said my dogs were running loose. AC came out to see the dogs. I would not let them into the yard, but I got my GSD who was sitting politely by the front door and he met her. He saw she was trained and under control. I explained the situation. I also told him they had threatened my children (another long story) and he said he would flag our address so complaints from that couple about noise or loose dogs were not acted on. He said not to let them get away with threats, but we weren’t sure what to do. I finally had enough and confronted them about the children. I said if they ever said one negative thing again about my kids, I would file a police report for harassment. They backed off but they made our lives very unpleasant. Eventually I called the police on them for another problem, which miraculously resolved itself after that, but the police refused to write them up. The threat was enough. Sometimes you have to fight back.


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

In my case, it was misfiled after judgement. It should have never been filed as criminal. It was a puppy, not an adult dog, so there were certainly no complaints of bites or anything, just a loose dog. I moved to FL not long after, and was there and GA for 13yrs, then CA for two, so it didn’t make sense to fight it then, I would have had to make an appearance in court. So I did do that when I finally moved back to AZ, but they are taking their slow time to get it changed. The judge didn’t even ask me to speak, he said it should have never been filed as criminal, and apologized for mistake, but it’s still there when I search. I haven’t had a background check since then, so I don’t know if it still comes up as criminal when employers do a background check. 

Our AC here is the police dept. They only way there are able to issue a ticket to you is if AC actually comes out and has to catch your dog, or someone else does and turns it over to AC, and they run the chip to you. It’s crazy to hear they issued one do you based on a description of two GSD’s and a female owner. Unless you’re the only one in the town with GSD’s. Even then, the officers would have to have proof of some sort that it was in fact, you and your dogs. 

False reporting is a very serious offense. My neighbor got the book thrown at her fine wise, had to pay the city for all the times they came out (I got the invoice first, $500 for first offense, $800 for second, and $1,000 for the third) and I believe her husband lost his position as chief. I know he still works there, but he never brings home the big red chief truck anymore, so I’m just assuming on that part. The judge asked if I wanted to file charges, I didn’t, as what she did was already on record, and I still have to live next door to them. Them paying the fine and me proving in court it was not me was enough. They haven’t bothered us since. Even when we did have a fire going in our fire pit (completely legal). 

I am a bit of a walking Murphy’s Law though. If it can, it will happen to me. My mom always told me if it wasn’t for my bad luck, I’d have no luck at all. 

I would fight my behind off if this were me. They are going to continue to harass you unless something is done. Are any of your dogs reactive around people on your property? If not, maybe invite the neighbors and some friends and town members over for a bbq where they will see interaction with your dogs, and maybe that will help ease the fears of the misconception they have about the breed. Just a random thought. 

But yes, get another lawyer and fight. File harassment charges, file complaints against the officer, have your lawyer send Cease-and-desist orders to both the neighbor and chief of police. Make a long paper trail so you have backup if they try to file any additional charges. As for moving, if you both own, filing the restraining order overrules home ownership, and if you get the restraining order in place, the neighbor would have to “move out” of his/her home until the restraining order expires, or they realize you’re not giving up and will decide to sell. Worth looking into.


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Steve- yes. There is no real number of complaints, as a far as taking dogs goes, but certainly this is not a good thing and needs to be addressed immediately. This is why I need to hire a lawyer who will take this very seriously and is not afraid to call out the local police (in other words, not a local lawyer like I had originally who wants to keep good relations with police to work out deals for clients). 

I will be moving, at some point, but it's not super easy to find appropriate property that is affordable close to work... we have a real affordable housing crisis being a tourist town - within driving distance of a city where people often earn double what you'd make here for the same job... and then buy a vacation home and AirBnB it... same old story lots of places. 

Luv Shepherds- if this was being dealt with by an Animal Control officer I think the outcome would be very different. That sounds miserable!


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I could fill the whole 10 pages of this with the drama that went on for a couple of years across the street. To gain some sanity, I called the SO and got two officers out who advised me to take photos of the dogs on my property (they weren't supposed to be loose at all). I did and subsequently they were charged. It took something like three citations & that many times in court (any party that doesn't show up looses) --- and then because of the behavior of one of the family, I got a restraining order on him. The story is long, tortured, but resolved. 



It's easy to tell someone else to move. It's easy to tell someone else what to do. It's time consuming, somewhat intimidating and a bother to stand up. When I began my action against my neighbor, they had been not-quite-this-bad but "bad neighbors" for years. (we're on 5 acre minimum lots with one 20, one 15 and two 10s in my immediate "neighborhood") People were afraid of retaliation. I don't recall that I've ever worked that way. Even in grade school -- threaten me & I'll tell!


----------



## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

There's a history of false/wrong complaints, too.

This winter, the crazy neighbor up the hill saw dog tracks on his property and swore it was my dogs.

I knew it wasn't. And told the police that, but even so was threatened with dog at large ticket and a whole lot of other stuff. Called a liar.

So one officer actually went up there and followed the tracks home. It was another neighbor's lab and golden. Who got loose and ran off and she had to go get them. No apologies from police. 

This happened one more time. Dog tracks, neighbor called police swearing up and down it was me, and again it was the other neighbor. 

While this was happening the cops also apparently went door to door asking if anyone had problems with my dogs. Apparently, nobody did except the neighbor with the labs said my dogs were 'scary looking'. Well, I can't really do anything about that. And I doubt strongly she got any tickets for her offenses which actually did have proof. And admission of guilt. 

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize, back then, I should have hired a lawyer. Live and learn.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is very easy to make suggestions- this is true. It’s probably the only thing in life that is easy. In the end you have to do with what brings you and your dog the most peace what ever that is for you.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Saco said:


> I talked to the Animal Control officer in the town next door. She said they reserve "dog at large" tickets for the dog raiding the neighbor's trash while the owner is asleep on the couch type incidents. Anything else, usually a different law applies (or nothing applies, and there is no ticket). For example, dog raiding a chicken coop would not be at large, but either a menace or vicious- different ticket.
> 
> This whole thing seems like such a waste of time and effort- but I am of course taking it very seriously now. With dogs' safety #1 priority.


I had a neighbor who hated me, hated my dogs. No reason, just because I asked her to please stop letting her dogs jump on my fence and bark at my dogs. 
When Shadow was about 4 months old she slipped out my screen door on day and bolted out to see the dogs walking by. Husband was hot on her heels and scooped her up immediately but not before he got bitten by crazy ladies dog and screamed at for Shadow attacking them.
AC showed up and I was ultimately given a ticket for dog at large, which I deserved, but the story she gave was that Sabi had leaped over the fence and attacked them and they only escaped injury because her dog managed to fight Sabi off and drive her back into my yard. Fortunately the guy had half a brain and realized that Sabi was not involved and little wiggle butt Shadow had not "attacked" anything. He was a good guy, but over the course of the next few years I had AC and/or the police at my door at least once a week. And I always had to go back and explain that yes I had been given a ticket, but the complaint on file was totally false.
Much more frightening was that about a week after the incident I went out with the girls to check the front yard in the morning and noted an oddly colored patch of snow in the center of the yard. Testing revealed that the substance was antifreeze and the placement of it meant someone had walked into my yard to put it there. I don't ever keep antifreeze on the property. Two months later a package of strychnine soaked ham appeared next to my doorstep. Again someone had to enter my yard to place it there. 
Get a lawyer and be very, very careful. With you and your dogs.


----------



## CarlMax (Sep 11, 2019)

Saco said:


> Steve- yes. There is no real number of complaints, as a far as taking dogs goes, but certainly this is not a good thing and needs to be addressed immediately. This is why I need to hire a lawyer who will take this very seriously and is not afraid to call out the local police (in other words, not a local lawyer like I had originally who wants to keep good relations with police to work out deals for clients).
> 
> I will be moving, at some point, but it's not super easy to find appropriate property that is affordable close to work... we have a real affordable housing crisis being a tourist town - within driving distance of a city where people often earn double what you'd make here for the same job... and then buy a vacation home and AirBnB it... same old story lots of places.
> 
> Luv Shepherds- if this was being dealt with by an Animal Control officer I think the outcome would be very different. That sounds miserable!


well said!


----------



## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

My biological dad, who I saw 3-4 times as a child, had some warring feud with the neighbors and their kids. So one summer my mom packed me up and forced me to spent the summer with my “dad.” Details are fuzzy because I was a kid, but my dad owned a beautiful long coat shepherd named Sam. That was the only good thing to happen to me that summer. I spent all my time outside playing and grooming Sam. He was an amazing dog to me. Next summer, packed up again. I was so looking forward to seeing Sam again. Got to his house, ran to the back door to see Sam, and a huge bully breed came snarling after me. Apparently the feud got worse during the year, and I’m not sure who started it, I think it was my dad, he was a real piece of work, but the neighbors dogs all died of poisoning, as did Sam. I remember my dad bragging the he had poisoned the neighbors dogs. I called my grandpa that day and had him come pick me up, and the was the last I saw of my dad until I was 20, and it was a chance meeting in the only Home Depot for a very long distance. Didn’t even acknowledge him. 

So yes, please keep an eye out on your dogs when they are out doors. My dad threw a few steaks over the fence in the middle of the night to kill the neighbors dog. It’s hard to believe some people would be okay with that, especially since they never once fought over each other’s dogs, but that’s how far it escalated. And there are crappy people out there that are completely capable of killing a dog with no remorse.


----------



## LizzyTailor (Sep 19, 2019)

It depends on you. No one except you can make this decision.


----------

