# I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my dog.



## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

Hello, this is my first post on this very intriguing forum ! I hope that discussing my problems with other GS owners, I will recieve better insight and empathy than has been my experience with general dog owners. 

First off, our dog's name is Emma, she's four years old, spayed, went through basic training at 6 months old, but I had to pull her out at 8 mnths as she began to act agressive and domineering. Around thenm, I took her twice to the Marin Humane Society training facility to have a consultation with a trainer there and I just don't know if that did much. The trainer set me up with a Sensation harness and a few wise training basic techniques, books to read, like "Culture Clash" , etc. but I went away in a total confusion. 

How can I say this without rubbing people the wrong way? Trainers are too expensive for us to afford, I am not a book reader, need more interaction thatn that. Emma is a force to be reckoned with ! A dynamic alpha wannabe, who is totally hyper highstrung around other animals, including dogs. She is wonderful around people, including my very young nieces. She is extremely smart, always outsmarting me, but she has so many things she needs to learn in the way of socializing, but I gave up when she started acting out at about a year. I've tried a tieing her down and using Calming Cap (hood) when taking her int he car, but she just seems to bark so loud and is scary when let loose. Without getting into the major details about how and when she started to become unmanageable, I'd like to focus on what I can do now. 

Basically my husband works long days and doesn't /hasnt' had time or interest to train her. I am a housewife and do. I'm afraid of her agressive behavior away from home... but know that she is an albatross in my life at this point, though I love her dearly. I want her to be a companion and come places with me, like to the beach, etc. 

I think I'm really really bottled up, and this is going to be difficult to talk over, but I'd love it if some gentle empathetic souls could help me face in the right direction. 

Thanks so much, in advance. 
~Jen


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Dear Jen,

Welcome, this is a wonderful place to learn about GSD and their people. 

Other people know tons more than I do about training and reasonable expectations but one place you can start is Nothing in Life is Free. http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

This is a very simple, humane method to let Emma rely on you for direction. By waiting for your cues for all kinds of day to day behaviors, she learns to look to you in general.

Again, others will say more and better. I just wanted to welcome you and congratulate you for helping Emma be the great dog she can be.

Mary Jane


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's so sad. First, she wasn't being aggressieve at 8 months old. It seems to be a common age for their brains to fall out, kind of like the terrible twos. 

Second, what correction collar are you using? I've never heard of a Calming Cap but it doesn't sound like a good idea. You should start practicing NILIF (nothing in life is free), which is very easy to do and a very easy concept to follow. 

There are several ppl on here that have a library of knowledge in their heads that can help you soooo....Cheer up!! You'll get there!!!


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you MaryJane, I will look into that link very soon. I'm starting to cry, I can't believe this. I just knew that bringing this up would be a very emotional thing for me. I was afraid of a GS dog on the road we lived on growing up, and here I am loving our dog, like a daughter (my fur child) but am still afraid of her, rather, hyper sensitive to her domineering energy, and she is a great source of anxiety for me, which doesn't help my temperment. 

Jax , that's the thing, she's not had any 'correction' training.... all positive, treat-oriented , which has not proved very effective, as she only comes when she feels like. Still, we don't know what to do, as we were so impressed by the non-punative methods from that one trainer. The calming cap is only a hood that goes over her eyes so she isn't so hyper stimulated when out and about. Does't really work, she has xray vsion ! 

I hope I can laugh about these things later, but right now they really make me feel like a failure.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, I would get rid of the hood. She's always going to be hyper stimulated if she isn't desensitized to things.

You can't be a failure if you are here trying to learn!!!


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

I failed to mention in my original post, which I spat out in a fury, that we live in the backcountry, on a moutnain, and most everyday Emma and I are out hiking, and she gets a chance to really run and get into nature and we bonded that way. She pays attention to me well some of the time, like when it's time to change direction on a trail or something, she will look for instruction from me, and I can actually command her with a hand gesture at quite a distance. SOme of it really works, when she is motivated and happy running around. When she is running about though, I just let her run and don't try too hard to command her , knowing she's likely to blow me off. It's like, our time out there is her time to be free and run and she maintains great athletic fitness that way. Most importantly, if I had her on a line, she would not get to vent so much of the energy she needs to vent.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where does she sleep? Sit when you are all together? I would put her on the floor until she starts viewing you as her Alpha.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08First, I would get rid of the hood. She's always going to be hyper stimulated if she isn't desensitized to things.
> 
> You can't be a failure if you are here trying to learn!!!


 Haven't used it much as I haven't taken her out much. We use it when we drive to the Sierras , on backpacking trips , (she carries a backpack)....especially when we were just starting out on a road trip, but we haven't done that in well over a year... maybe two. If she had her way, she'd be in the drivers' seat ! 

I'll hear your advice, and not put so much importance on it. Props and tools can just be inhibiting to me anyway.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Just popping in while waiting for something to print-saw this-don't be upset about being upset! Dogs you love are dogs who can bring you to tears in so many ways-happy, sad, scared, upset...

I don't think you have to resort to correction training. She needs to know her boundaries and limits very much, and also that she can't get away with behavior in different places that she wouldn't at home (the car is hard to correct a dog in or to shape a behavior-can't exactly explain to the trooper that you were clicking your dog and you missed the stop sign). But you can shape it and do it mostly in a positive way...

Your dog is made nervous by your energy but it's all fixable! Right now you are in a behavior loop with each other-that's rough. 

NILIF is great! Just wanted to give you a little support, and a you can do it before I left for another meeting! 

PS-I tried the Calming Cap for my Mario's carsickness. I can see it could be a success-nothing worked for him until they developed Cerenia for that problem.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08Where does she sleep? Sit when you are all together? I would put her on the floor until she starts viewing you as her Alpha.


At night she sleeps with us in our bedroom (or else she'd bark all night at critters outside) on the floor on a pad. During the day she goes between doggie beds we have around the house, including one old dusty beat-up chair we allow her to have. She stays off the couches and beds pretty well, but has snuck in opportunities when we're not around (always pushing her boundaries) .


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do you have a long line? If not, get a 30 foot lunge line. My trainer always told me "don't give her a chance to refuse you". So while we are training I always had a way to bring her back to me. What commands does she know? What is happening when she is not listening to you? What is she refusing to do? All these things might be important information for the experts on here.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Ok, first calm down







Take some breaths! I know just how frustrating what you're going through is. 
You feel like all you want to do is take your dog out and have a good time but there they are barking like mad and going insane!

Second google "NILIF" training and start doing that right away. 

Third, keep her on-leash at all times. Even in the house. We need to start basic manner training right from the beginning. 
That means no more off-leash play until you can keep her under control. I would invest in a long line found at Petco. 

Whenever she starts being a butt head inside the house say "You win the crazy game!! Crate time!" Wait till she calms down then let her out. Could take a while. 
If you ever feel like you need a break from her by all means put her in the crate so you don't expose her to your angry energy.

It sounds like you have a puppy who's "brain fell out" like Jax said. It's very common for pups to go into a fear stage around 8 months old the most important thing to do is to keep socializing! Even if she's acting like a butt head it's best to adopt a great sense of humor and learn what her thresholds are.
Try not to expose her to more than she can handle.

Try to give her a job. Maybe she can help you with laundry? Play hide and seek, find the treat, bring a specific toy?
How long do you exercise her every day? Do you take her for walks? Have you taught her to play fetch?


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

I myself am still learning with my Anna, so probably not the perfect person to get advice from. I do know that my Anna is getting into this very exact stage and even throwing fits when I am trying to get her to do something she dont want to do. She will throw herself back against her collar and rear up and try to force the collar off the back of her head, thus slipping out of it. The one thing I have done with this is remained consistant and not given in to her. I hold my own, let her struggle till she settles down, that is just about the time we stop moving and then re attempt to follow through with the command, which is normally, "ok, play time is over, lets go out back." I just view her as trying to obtain dominance over me and me keeping control. I will sit and wait and we wont move forward till she settles down. I have even been thinking about getting a control collar, yet hate to do so.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

It's all baby steps.








You're going to have good days and you're going to have days where you think someone must have come in and pressed the erase button on her brain.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: DorianI myself am still learning with my Anna, so probably not the perfect person to get advice from. I do know that my Anna is getting into this very exact stage and even throwing fits when I am trying to get her to do something she dont want to do. She will throw herself back against her collar and rear up and try to force the collar off the back of her head, thus slipping out of it. The one thing I have done with this is remained consistant and not given in to her. I hold my own, let her struggle till she settles down, that is just about the time we stop moving and then re attempt to follow through with the command, which is normally, "ok, play time is over, lets go out back." I just view her as trying to obtain dominance over me and me keeping control. I will sit and wait and we wont move forward till she settles down. I have even been thinking about getting a control collar, yet hate to do so.


Have you tried a martingale? I've heard they're really good since they're a mix between a flat collar and a choke chain to prevent slipping out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

Personally, since she's four years old now, I would use a prong collar or a choke chain. Just make sure you know how to use them first. I saw a couple who were picking their dogs up off the ground when using the prong collar....OUCH!!


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

I have to restate that Emma and I have learned to harmonise well by my letting her run in the backcountry, some on leash, but the aim is to get her off leash so she can really really run. I decided this was just a good bonding time, as we both needed the exercise, and at that point I was resigned to just keeping her home (around 18 months?) . She has been very happy, and we go out into the woods and run in the trees, and frankly , a long line would never work out there. I have maybe made a huge mistake in this,  and others tell me the long- line thing too, including the HumanSocietyTrainer, but it just is not conducive to real country, with trees and shrubs everywhere to get snagged on and wrapped around. I can begin to try some of these techniques now, but she's now Four Yrs old and we've established this outside time together. 

Is the Long Line that necessary for at-home? I've used a 26ft retractable line ( a flexi) tied to my hips with a belt, and her SensationHarness keeps her unable to pull too hard on the leash. She knows the rules when on leash, but just off leash she knows she is free and disobeys recall. when I call, she actually looks the other way, as if she's got more important things to do ! She plays a game with this. Probably all GS are at least similar. She's really into the power wrestling. What I've done is not put her in too much command, knowing that having her blow it off is worse. 

Really, though, leash training at home isn't my biggest anxiety now, it's taking her out in the community, of course she'd be on-leash there.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

Okay, now I'll go look into Nothing in Life is For Free. Thanks


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DenaliFofaliOk, first calm down
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Denali, do you really think she is trainable like the puppies, going back to basics? She will fetch, is excellent sleuther , just amazing finding sticks thrown down steep slopes of branches and sticks....but wont' give back. Periodically I give her the Hide and Seek game, but honestly, I guess I don't do a whole lot with her constantly, as my time hiking with her (about an hour on average) is pretty focussed on her. I've gotten into a rut of being off duty with her, so I can do my thing. I get to thinking she runs my life.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Oops I thought she was 8 months old!


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DenaliFofaliOops I thought she was 8 months old!


sorry, no, she was 8 months when her behavior started getting hyper strung-out, and I had to pull her out of GoodManners2 class . Probably a bad idea, but the trainer went and put a pinch (prong) collar on her without my permission, because she was reacting suddenly to other dogs so much (brain falling out) ... and that made me furious !


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

If she's being a hyper crazy dog in the house then yes, you have to start to teach her through tethering what the house rules are. It's never too late.

If you feel like she runs your life then that's all the more reason to give her rules so that she understands that's it's not all about her all the time. Just like it's not all about anyone else all the time. I do the same thing with my puppy.

When it's time to calm down I don't want her to bring me the ball constantly so I can play with her when we just played Frisbee outside! So I make sure to let her know when enough is enough.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

During that time, around a year, by advise of a psuedo trainer on another forum, I was told to let her 'head get straight', go out and bond with her hiking, let her run and be a part of nature and develop her maturity. Some of you may think that's totally crazy, but it made sense to me, and that's what I did. Now she's four, I'm feelilng totally miserable that I can't take her with me and feel homebound, and am dreaming I can train her to socialize so we can go places and she is well-behaved. Is this possible?


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

You'll be amazed at how much she can learn at 4 years old!







Just like when she was a puppy. 
You can start teaching her all kinds of things like Come to Heel, Heeling while focusing on your face, come front, spin, speak etc etc so that she feels like she has a purpose. 

You can also use two sticks or balls when playing fetch so the game can continue without being interrupted by her playing keep away. 

Also another good trick is to run away from her when she doesn't respond to come. Works like a charm!


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I would teach a solid "Leave it" and "Heel". That way when you see another dog on your walks you can ask her to Leave it and Heel. No fuss.
It's important to keep in mind that not all dogs can get along with other dogs but they should learn to tolerate them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08I've never heard of a Calming Cap but it doesn't sound like a good idea.


Actually, the Calming Cap can be a big help for reactive dogs by reducing visual stimulus. It doesn't block their vision entirely, and is meant to be an aid to desensitization: http://www.gentleleader.com/App_Content/media/calmCap/CalmingCapInstruction0506.pdf

I would NOT use a corrective collar on a dog with a dog whose aggression or reactivity is based on fear, stress, or anxiety, as you'll only exacerbate the behavior. She needs to learn to be calm and focused around other dogs, not that she's going to get a correction every time she's around them. Along with desensitization, she needs lots and lots of counterconditioning, pairing whatever sets her off with something very pleasant, such as a very high value food treat that she'll only get in those kinds of circumstances where she's likely to go off, which changes the emotional response to the stimulus. It's not a quick fix, but if the dog is no longer stressed, anxious and fearful, there is no need to react with aggressive outbursts and the behavior will extinguish. Corrections may suppress the reactive display, but will not change the underlying reason behind the behavior.

I know you said you can't afford training, but I'm afraid if you want to get a handle on this behavior you really do need professional help. I've taken the Difficult Dog class at the Marin Humane Society and it was excellent, and helped us so much with Cassidy. Since you've already gone there for a consult you should be able to sign up for the class. And whether or not you're a book reader, there is so much good information available that can help you understand the reasons behind her behavior and the techniques that can be valuable. It's not a substitute for working with a trainer, think of it as complimentary to the process. 

NILIF is an excellent technique for any dog.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DenaliFofaliYou'll be amazed at how much she can learn at 4 years old!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I sure would like to think I could still train her to be a great obedience dog,.. just am so disheartened at how much energy it takes, and how she just milks it out every drop. 

Yeah, tried two sticks... most all of the things brough up so far (but not the long line, for reasons noted)...even the running away , (even laying down ! .. to make her come, but all are not true methods to make her obey. It got to everytime I called her I had to walk int he other direction. That gets old fast, and I felt like she was training me to walk backwards. I mean, in way, she has been training me ! Oy... I better go out with her now, it's hike time. I'll think about all of this of course. Thanks a million ! ~Jen


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: JenJayNow she's four, I'm feelilng totally miserable that I can't take her with me and feel homebound, and am dreaming I can train her to socialize so we can go places and she is well-behaved. Is this possible?


Yes, but you're going to have to work really hard. You're going to have to decide that it's important enough to you to take the time to read some books, and find the money to pay for a trainer. The Difficult Dog classes are great because it's specifically for dogs just like yours, and it's a group class which is much less expensive than paying for private training. ARF in Walnut Creek also has classes for reactive dogs, as does the San Francisco SPCA. I don't know what part of the Bay Area you live in and if any of those would be more convenient for you. 

This is a situation that took years to develop and it can take years to fix. She may never be totally reliable in all situations and my require a certain amount of management, but you can definitely make enough progress if you're willing to put the time and effort in.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Jax08I've never heard of a Calming Cap but it doesn't sound like a good idea.
> ...


 Cassidy's Mom ~ Now you're coming exactly from where my orignial train of thought was, from the Humane Society Trainer, who set me up with SensationHarness, calming cap, and loads of advise about how to motivate Emma to obey, rather than forcing her. It was that trainer who diagnosed Emma's behavior at 6 and 8 months old as fear based, and conflicted, and so I went from there. Emma does act very afriad of other dogs, but somethign overides it and she becomes overcompensatingly dominant (pushed other dogs with her front paws, tries to get them to get down, but never has bitten or growled, just really fearful stressed, and reacts by getting dominant. So yes, I've felt aligned with your advise about not using correction methods. Emma needs to have a big Chill Pill, and not sure how to do that. I thought maturity would help, letting her develop her head away from the chaos of town and distractions... maybe that was a bad idea, but what I did was to resolve to keep her home and away from conflict I guess. 

Back to the issue of taking classes at the Marin Humane Society. Well, not sure I really am up for that, we live way up in the mtns. Frankly , if you can refer me to a good non-punative trainer who's not going to break the bank that's local to Napa, now there'd be some good advice. I have not found one yet, and was furious at the local dog club for putting the prong collar on Emma without asking me. I had another local trainer come up and that was a mess, she had no experience with large dynamic dogs as Emma, and it cost me 95 bux, another long chat with a trainer , almost convinced to try her, very expensive, and she had a good argument for the shock collar. I just basically have not felt a good vibe from anyone, and feel ripped off by the dog professionals, frankly.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: JenJayNow she's four, I'm feelilng totally miserable that I can't take her with me and feel homebound, and am dreaming I can train her to socialize so we can go places and she is well-behaved. Is this possible?
> ...


 OK you've convisnced me to try the SF SPCA.... is it better than Marin Humane Society? I 'm from the mtns of Napa/Sonoma... long way to travel with a dog who's nuts in the car. Maybe ARF would be closer, is it as good?


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I'd have to agree... I thought this was a puppy butt head case but this is an older dog with some issues. 
You should probably start reading up on it at the very least.
I wouldn't think of it as training to walk backwards. It's only temporary until she learns the command. It's up to you though to teach and proof it...


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

I know that you said you can't afford a trainer, but have you asked? Sometimes good trainers are willing to make a deal with you for the health and safety of you and your dog. If they tell you no, then you haven't lost anything, but if they say yes it could help you with so many problems!


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JenJay another long chat with a trainer , almost convinced to try her, very expensive, and she had a good argument for the shock collar. I just basically have not felt a good vibe from anyone, and feel ripped off by the dog professionals, frankly.


An E-collar used *correctly* can be very helpful in your situation. That being said you would need to find a *good trainer *. It will not be cheap but well worth it in the end.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree with Cassidy's Mom. Forget about making her do what you want through corrective techniques and use the relationship you already have to get her working with you. The book I would recommend is "Click to Calm." I know you said you're not a reader but the author has a dog that's just like yours and she rehabbed him. 

I adopted Basu at age 4.5. He started out fearful in new situations and then became fear aggressive. He had had no previous training, had been neglected and also abused. He was very strong. I had no choice but to use structure, consistency and redirection with him. Everything was positive but that didn't mean he didn't have rules. It took a while but he learned to look to me as his leader. *You can do this! *

I would start with NILIF along with lots of games and fun stuff that get her focusing on you in the house and in the yard so that she learns to look to you as a kind, fair, consistent and strong leader in all situations. That will take a while but once you build and proof that part of your relationship it will help you immensely when you take her out of the home, into public and work with her there. 

Have you tried clicker training? You can start that at home. http://www.clickertraining.com/

You may also want to try the DAP spray and/or Rescue Remedy to help take the edge off a bit. 

Also, I understand about letting her run. My dog Kai was like that; I had to let him run so that he could work out his anxiety, etc. When he got that kind of exercise he was so much more able to work with and focus on me.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: MinnieskiI know that you said you can't afford a trainer, but have you asked? Sometimes good trainers are willing to make a deal with you for the health and safety of you and your dog. If they tell you no, then you haven't lost anything, but if they say yes it could help you with so many problems!


Very true. The trainer I'm working with now is letting us do a payment plan and is very lenient with payments. I was honest with him about our current situation what with the stupid AC breaking and he helped us out.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

wow Jenjay!! I feel for you but this is fixable - if you are committed to it and it sounds like you are. 

Your old trainer says Emma is "conflicted"? At the risk of upsetting you I have to say I think maybe you are too. 

Dogs understand a fair leader who is cleaer cut and consistent. Not a leader who is afraid of the dog (your words) and unsure of how to proceed with the dog. (positve or correction)

So now we have a dog who loves to run and is bonded to you when she is allowed to run. Yes she sure needs the exercise it seems but I also think that you two are of one mind when in the back country together. Do you see the pattern here? In the back country you are cmfortable with who you are with the dog. Therefore Emma is also comfortable and in tune with you. No it is probably not perfect - nothing is, but let's use this same level of "being in tune" in other settings so Emma can understand how she is to behave and she can rely on you to be a positive, fair, consistant and in charge leader that she can respect. 

Trust me, Emma is dying to be that dog you want. 

This is what I would do. I won't repeat Cassidy's Mom's advice as she said it best and it is good sound advice.

I would do NILIF and you have links for that.

I would change yourself. You need to decide to become a reader and a bit of a student of canne behavior and training. You need to do this so you can improve your leadership and help your "kid".

I am a fan of positive reinforcement. I am also a fan of a firm,fair correction when a dog is in the wrong and understands she is in the wrong and knows the correct choice of behavior. Corrections are not bad things or bad words, a correction is very simple - information to the dog offered by the benevolent leader (YOU) to help the dog chnage behavior. Corrections are NEVER given in anger and are NEVER designed to hurt or confuse the dog. EVER!

So with that inforamtion decide how you want to handle your dog. Decide what equipment works for you and that you can apply correctly. With your experience level I would not recommend a prong, I use hem but I don't yhink you want to use and you may not know how. Witha dog that is conflicted adn probably fearful a prong used incorrectly may only furhter the damage. Put the prong aside.

I am not an advocate of an ecollar but again used corectly by a professional it is aeffective tool for many kinds of behavior but I do not think fear aggression is one of them. Discard the ecollar unless you are studying under Lou Castle who is the only ecollar trainer I would consider.

That leaves us a standard choke collar, flat collar, gentle leader, martngale or sensation harness. Of all of those I would probably chose a martingale or gentle leader. 

I would take that reactive dog class for both of you. You could ask for your hubby to give you an early birthday, anniversary or Christmas gift to take those lessons.

It is very hard to help this in a short email but I think if you work on keeping yourself upbeat and convince yourself that this approaching dog is no big deal, you are in charge you will see a difference.

Start by reinforcing your basic obedience to the point she is automatic, then start working on approaches to other dogs. Start at a distance, as soon as she notices the other dog but before she offers a reaction mark her with a clicker or word (Yes!) in a happy voice and reward her heavily. Then move away and try again and again and again. The idea is to rewqrd her for calm behavior around other dogs. It is okay for her to look at them and to acknowledge them but not to bark lunge etc.

As she gets better at a distance go a little closer. 

In a nut shell this is classic counter conditioning and desensitization. 

Another good book to read (eeek!) is Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. I would read the intro and then go check out the "Look at that!" game.

You have to become a reader to learn how to fix this. You can fix this! 

You can!!!! Honest!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

Forgot to add.....

It sounds as if you do not do a lot of work or go to a lot of places that are crowded. It sounds as if you are isolated and therefore your dog is too. This creates fear in dogs. Dogs must be socialized heavily without causing them fear between weeks 6 and 16 and then at a lower level continually for years to come. All dogs need to be reinforced with good opportunities to be out and about in order for them to be reliable around distractions, people, kids, and other dogs.

If you have not done these things you have created this. 

If you chose to never take her out around other things then she is probably fine but if you decide you want to or encounter a lot of other people and dogs out hiking you need to work on her skills. 

I would start taking her out more in quieter places at first with high level of reward and build up her ability to be calm under busier and more distracting situations.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

I am currently using a library computer so could not read all the posts. 

Welcome to the board. You are in the right place.

There is a lot of good advice. Personally, I would forget about the Cesar Millan/Alpha stuff. Go with Nothing in Life is Free. Build her trust in you by improving the bond between you by training every day. Reward good behavior. Do not nag. If she does not do it right the first time, help her to complete the action and then praise. 

It is of the utmost importance that she not bite anyone or fight with a dog. My suggestion is to keep her at home while you get her accustomed to a muzzle. Then take her out with a muzzle for a while. When the bond between you and she has improved dramatically through non-violent leadership, NILIF, etc., then you should be able to give her more freedom and lose the muzzle. Every dog is different and I would go slow. 

Spend a lot of attention figuring out if the aggressiveness is fear based aggression. It does not matter if the dog is half her size. Elephants are afraid of mice. It may be fear based, and if it is then it may make sense to approach things differently. 

I understand completely that money doesn't grow on trees. Still, regular dog classes can be a really good start to getting this under control. 

Good luck.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: KathyWwow Jenjay!! I feel for you but this is fixable - if you are committed to it and it sounds like you are.
> Your old trainer says Emma is "conflicted"? At the risk of upsetting you I have to say I think maybe you are too.
> 
> <snip>
> ...


How relieved I am to read your post ! Yes I am conflicted !!!







I feel I need to qualify that the only reason I haven't gotten into reading all the books is there are so many conflicting methods, and I think I personally became 'conflicted' when starting with the LocalDogClub good manners class, and some of the assistants in the class were dying to get a prong collar on Emma (and did) when at the same time I was consulting with a trainer at the Marin Humane Society who was lecturing all the positive and non-punitive methods , paying good money for *both*. 

I easily get overwhelmed, if that's not obvious. Also worth noting that I had no idea what we were getting into when DH and I got the dog. His experience with former GS from his childhood was a mellow dog, nothing near like our Emma, and my experience with dogs has only very little. Emma is just a dynamo, not average in any way. She is smart and athletic enough to be a winner schutzhund, probably, and what a waste of her lineage to end up with me ! Well, I should stop joking like that , but really , I had no clue what I was in for : I'm just not the decisive and in-charge kind of personality to control an 85 pound GS.... or .... it doesn't come easy. It's stressful for me, to say the least, but I hate to think of giving up and letting her rule the house and being bored. I'd love to see her become the good and well-behaved social dog everybody else seems to have. Like I said, she really is a good dog, a people lover, just a high prey drive GS who has a mind of her own. 

Question : We keep her puppy crate in the living room for her, just to hang out in. Do you suppose putting it in the car and driving around with her in it, covered, would be a good start? Just driving into town at this point would be total stress for both of us, and she hasn't been to town much, except the vet , in a couple years I guess. We were getting her into going backpacking with us, and she's been on about 3 trips into the Big Mtns (about 6 hr drive, 6 days on the trail). But it's never easy, when she sees a dog on the trail, for instance, it's meltdown time and makes everybody really uncomfortable, and especially ME.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: selzer
> ....It is of the utmost importance that she not bite anyone or fight with a dog. My suggestion is to keep her at home while you get her accustomed to a muzzle. Then take her out with a muzzle for a while. When the bond between you and she has improved dramatically through non-violent leadership, NILIF, etc., then you should be able to give her more freedom and lose the muzzle. Every dog is different and I would go slow.
> 
> ...I understand completely that money doesn't grow on trees. Still, regular dog classes can be a really good start to getting this under control.


 Thanks Seltzer. I got to thinking, taking her into a problem-dog-class might be detrimental to socializing her without stress. Seems a high risk. And are muzzles really a good idea? I got the impression from the HumanSocietyTrainer that they are not the answer. I have wanted to try one just because of her barking in public is unnerving.... but... again, confused. WILL DO THE NILIFF .


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: KathyWForgot to add.....
> 
> It sounds as if you do not do a lot of work or go to a lot of places that are crowded. It sounds as if you are isolated and therefore your dog is too. This creates fear in dogs. Dogs must be socialized heavily without causing them fear between weeks 6 and 16 and then at a lower level continually for years to come. All dogs need to be reinforced with good opportunities to be out and about in order for them to be reliable around distractions, people, kids, and other dogs.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking putting her into her crate in the car, covered, and just start driving her around a little bit. A good start? 
When we got her at 12 weeks, I immediately started taking her places, to the bike shop I love, friends' houses, dog park (?might have been bad idea_?) vet, dog classes. She was pretty good , with far fewer meltdowns,, until about 7 and 8 months and she totally changed, became unreasonably difficult to intercept her brain. That's when I decided to isolate and try when more mature. Maybe that was a bad idea, but it's all I could manage at the time, as I think I was feeling pretty resentful of being the sudden 'owner' of an unmanageable dog, when previously a cat person. 

So I did do somethings right, believe me, I didn't just ignore her, we've taught her to sit, down, stay, 'wait', and she is for the most part pretty good. Recall is poor, but not nonexistant, and well, she is so strong headed, the only place I can 'make' her 'watch me' (in the eyes) is when I'm making her sit at the door when she wants to go out, and I'm making her wait. That's the only time. Only trying to mention how difficult it is for me to demand her attention to me in distraction. Very difficult. 
I've never seen her bite, or heard her really growl, and we have people come to the house a lot, so she's a people lover. Its mostly the dogs and such that I jsut can't handle her stress reaction, therefore keep her home.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

I think the difficult dog class is an extremely good idea. If it's a good class (and I would totally trust Cassidy'sMom's recommendation) they're not going to push her more than she can handle. The wonderful thing about classes like this is that they help you set up very controlled situations where you can work through your dog's issues in a safe space. This is MUCH better than trying to work on them on your own when the dogs you encounter may be totally unpredictable. 

Listening to your description, this doesn't really sound like an alpha dog as much as a scared one with very poor social skills. I've seen (and fostered) a lot of dogs like this. They don't know quite how to interact with other dogs and because they're nervous they become proactively aggressive - sort of like "I'm going to go for you before you can go for me!" It's a very fixable problem but it takes having help to set up the appropriate context for making progress.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DenaliFofaliI'd have to agree... I thought this was a puppy butt head case but this is an older dog with some issues.
> You should probably start reading up on it at the very least.
> I wouldn't think of it as training to walk backwards. It's only temporary until she learns the command. It's up to you though to teach and proof it...


 I just now found this. Emma *was* a puppy who was a butt-head case, very strong willed, very very unwilling to mellow out. I had a geriatric old kitty who Emma wanted to eat, right when we brought her home as a 12wk old pup, so I had to keep them separated. Six months I had to deal with Emma wanting to get at my old kitty, and she eventually died. That is so sad for me to think I made my kitty's last months really difficutl (that cat I had for almost 18 years). I remember she saw her reflection in the mirror and would just have a meltdown, even at about 3 months old, that was probably a sign. In retrospect, I would have never thought it was cute, watching her bark at her reflection, and never would have taken her to the dog park at 4 months old to get ganged up on by the dogs. Later she became the bully, and I stopped taking her to the dog park. The dog park was about following advise...you see... advice can ruin as well as anything.


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## JenJay (Sep 1, 2009)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: pupresqI think the difficult dog class is an extremely good idea. If it's a good class (and I would totally trust Cassidy'sMom's recommendation) they're not going to push her more than she can handle. The wonderful thing about classes like this is that they help you set up very controlled situations where you can work through your dog's issues in a safe space. This is MUCH better than trying to work on them on your own when the dogs you encounter may be totally unpredictable.
> 
> Listening to your description, this doesn't really sound like an alpha dog as much as a scared one with very poor social skills. I've seen (and fostered) a lot of dogs like this. They don't know quite how to interact with other dogs and because they're nervous they become proactively aggressive - sort of like "I'm going to go for you before you can go for me!" It's a very fixable problem but it takes having help to set up the appropriate context for making progress.


I am going to enroll her in one of the classes Cassidy's Mom recommended. Thanks !


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

Kudos to you for having the courage to come here and ask for help! 

My friend did a Reactive Rover class with her german shepherd and it was really helpful for both of them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*



> Originally Posted By: JenJay I got to thinking, taking her into a problem-dog-class might be detrimental to socializing her without stress. Seems a high risk.


Actually, no. That's the beauty of this kind of class - ALL the dogs have the exact same kind of issues your dog has. Some will not be as bad, some will be a whole lot worse, but you will not be alone, you will not be the one with "that" dog in class, the barking, lunging, hackling, monster that's disrupting the class. And with YOU more relaxed, SHE'LL be more relaxed. They use barriers to block the dogs' view of each other then gradually remove them as the dogs get better. They start out working the dogs at a distance they can handle, and each week move them closer together. It's not really about basic obedience skills, it's about managing your dog and using counter-conditioning and desensitization (CC&D) techniques to teach her that being around other dogs is a GOOD thing. You're all working with your dogs under very controlled circumstances, and safety and keeping the dogs under threshold is a big part of the class. 

Edited to add: BTW, your girl sounds a LOT like Cassidy was, especially your description of her as a puppy. Cassidy was a force of nature!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

You can do it!!!! 

If you are willing to help Emma I think you can find the $$$ or try to work out a payment plan to do the reactive class. I read a book recently that was pretty technical but it was a diary of a trainer and her students in a reactive class. Some of the dogs were far worse than you describe Emma and they were being helped by the class. So I would go to the class.

With going in the car I would start by just putting her in the car and toss treats in with her. Let her first associate the car with good things (FOOD!). Then maybe start it up while feeding her. Then go down the driveway and then down the road for 5 minutes or so. What you want is to slowly help her associate the car with good stuff. 

Are you using a crate in the car? Is it big enough for her? If it is too small she may really dislike it and that may be a problem for her. 

I think part of your conflict lies in who to listen to and how to approach this. There are many schools of thought on dog training just as there is with parenting. I cannot remember if you said you had kids. If you have children you are consistent with them and do not give them everything they want. You are reasonable, interactive, positive, but willing to discipline when needed. Treat Emma the same way. 

1. Some trainers are purely positive using no or very mild correction (compulsion or force) to attain thier goals. But keep in mind - positve does not mean permissive. That means we can still apply discipline in the form of NILIF to help the dog understand position and place you in the position of leader. 

2. Some trainers use a combination approach, I am probably more in this category. I will give a very strong verbal or leash correction to a misbehaving dog that I KNOW understands the rules. However, I do not use correction to cure fear. Correction is useless in teaching adog not to be afraid. 

I think Emma falls in the fearful category.

3. The other category is the group that leasn heavily toward correction and domination of the dog through force. I personally do not believe this is needed. 

You will see all 3 on the board.

If I were Emma's owner I would stay closer to method 1 and 2. You are more comfortable with this personally I think from reading your posts. Therefore you will be more likely to follow through with a method you can embrace.

If you are one to be wishy washy you need to endeavor to work on that. NILIF will help you too by the way!


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: I am stifled, embarrassed, anxious about my do*

Welcome to the group, JenJay! You've definitely come to the right place, and you CAN get this under control. It will take lot of work and consistency, like everyone said, but boy is it worth it.

When I first joined this group, my first post was titled "Will my dog ever get along with other dogs?" And this was AFTER a "Grumpy Pup" class that was very, very helpful. We rescued Heidi at the age of around 2 years old and she had a lot of issues (mostly fear-based) and she had a huge prey drive and a lot of nervous energy. And to make matters worse, she didn't like my husband very much. At first, we often thought that we had made a huge mistake by adopting her and that we'd never be able to control her.

It's taken a lot of time and effort, but I can now take Heidi for hikes without her lunging and growling at other dogs. She still doesn't like it when certain dogs get in her face and she'll let them know it. But it is SOOO much better than it used to be. She can even go to daycare now and go to the Bay Area GSD meets that we have every so often. But it's an ongoing process and she still has flare-ups every now and then--for example, when another dog gives her the "stink eye" or gets in her face too quickly. 

Your Emma may never get to the point where she can go to a dog park or daycare (and that's OK), but she most definitely can be taught to ignore other dogs, so that you can take her places without causing a scene. The most useful thing for us was the "Grumpy Pup" class because we got to practice techniques around other dogs. The NILF program was also a huge help, as was clicker training.

The best of luck to you. I'm like you--pretty easygoing and have a hard time being as firm as I need to be, but if I can do it, so can you! Don't give up, and keep asking for help. I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't happened upon this website. I know for sure, Heidi wouldn't be as far along as she is today. We've learned so much from the people here, and the support is great. Somehow, knowing that quite a few other GSD owners are going through the same challenges and have come out OK is very comforting (as well as inspiring)!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

JenJay welcome to the site. Be a HUGE help to all of us if you go up to the top, click on 'My Stuff' then 'My Profile' and add your GENERAL location (we don't need to come knocking at your door but general location will help with alot of our suggestions).

I see owning and training a dog as a lifetime commitment that includes the costs of training. And I need to train for as long as my pup needs it, with the best trainer I can find and afford. So if it means I have to not go on vacation this year, or give up my cable tv for awhile, or carpool to work.................then that's an adjustment I need to consider while I work it out. 

Cause I've really learned that I don't know what I don't know. So I can keep trying to train my dog with what I DO know, and if my dog is falling apart.............then that's when I know to get more help. (It's all in the results, or lack of results). If my other half wasn't supportive that's just fine, really. He doesn't have to work with the dog or learn a new way, I can do it, really. For my dog.

So I really really really would recommend looking around for a good trainer/behaviorist. If you live in the NJ/PA area there's a great woman to help called Carolyn Wilke and her site is http://www.raspberryridgesheepfarm.com/index.aspx you can probably even email her for hints and suggestions.

Problem is this dog thing really is hard and NOT something we all just instinctively do well. Some dogs are harder too. So to have the instinctive way to work with our dogs is something we need to LEARN and if we have a good teacher we learn so much faster and do so much better.

Good luck. And if your husband doesn't want to help, that's fine, you can do this on your own.


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## Lola1969 (Mar 6, 2007)

JenJay,

First of all, I have to say that Emma is one lucky dog to have someone as concerned about her as you are to try as many things as you have, read as much as you have, etc. I can tell that you have a wonderful bond with Emma and I'm sure she feels the same for you. Many other people would probably have dropped her off at a shelter somewhere because she became too hard to handle and she would have ended up another Shepherd statistic in a shelter. So thank you for your dedication to this girl!

Like you, I do not have the most assertive personalitiy ever, certainly not an ideal personality to be a leader to a GSD. When I first got Ozzy, this was a problem. I worked hard with him in classes, private training, etc. In the end, I just decided to "fake it til I make it" and pretended and projected that I was full of leadership qualities and asseritveness.

The funny thing is, is that after months of pretending, it comes second nature to me now (after all that acting), and whether I believe it or not, Ozzy believes it and respects me a lot more. So, you may have to try to fake it til you make it for awhile!

Also, I have found that when I exercise Ozzy heavily and then take him out in public, he is a lot more mellow and less anxious than when he is fresh. So, if you do decide to do any socializing, I suggest a good long hard romp for her beforehand!

This forum has helped me immensely. GSDs are so special, they are really worth our extra time and energy for all the love and loyalty they give us in return. GSDs are not Labs or Golden Retrievers, they are a different all around dog owning experience but you may never bond with a dog as deeply as you do a GSD.

Thanks again for not giving up on Emma!


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

JenJay -- you've had great suggestions here, and I love the way KathyW picked up on a couple of essential features. 

I'm pretty geographically isolated too, and Annie shows it, although I've socialized her since she was a pup by taking her to Petsmart and Farmers markets at least once a week. You may not ever have a dog who's totally comfortable in public, but you CAN have a dog who is well-mannered and reliable in public situations. 

Some DVDs that will help and that I consider essential -- you can probably get them through the library (I did) -- 

Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas 
The Language of Dogs Starring by Sarah Kalnajs
Really Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson

And one of my favorite, favorite dog books is The Other End of the Leash. Really good, really pleasant to read. If you don't enjoy reading, maybe get audiobooks on dog training instead? I love listening to books when I do my chores or take Annie on walks.

I'm glad you're going to classes -- videos and books are great (especially videos), but there is nothing in the world like a good trainer for really making a difference, and the doggie socialization is very important too. 

In a year, I predict, you'll be coming to this forum telling new members, "Don't worry, I've been there, this is how I fixed my problem, I now have a dog I can enjoy anywhere."

Also -- just the act of training and working with your dog will have wonderfully calming and confidence building effects on YOU! Trust me -- you'll come out of this feeling pretty great about yourself and your dog. And there is no better companion in the world than a well-trained GSD.

There's a section somewhere on this forum that recommends dog training books, videos, etc. 

Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> I am not an advocate of an ecollar but again used corectly by a professional it is aeffective tool for many kinds of behavior but I do not think fear aggression is one of them. Discard the ecollar unless you are studying under Lou Castle who is the only ecollar trainer I would consider.


Yikes, high praise indeed! Thanks very much Kathy. 

I treat fear aggression with an Ecollar in a round–about way. I merely teach the recall and the sit with the Ecollar per the methods described on my website 

There are two anecdotes there, one written by me and one by someone else who used this method to fix this issue. Both dogs were highly fear aggressive and both dogs responded to JUST THIS METHOD of dealing with the issue. You can read one story here. Roma's Story. And the other one here, Simon's Story 

My theory of why this works is in Roma's Story.


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## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

Lou -- fascinating. Liked your explanation of why the ecollar worked. The comment by Roma's owner about the inappropriately painful stim levels of the cheap e-collars, even at low levels, should probably be placed in flashing lights....

I couldn't tell from the article -- does Roma always need the ecollar, or does she go without it now that she's discovered the non-fight/flight response?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ParsifalI couldn't tell from the article -- does Roma always need the ecollar, or does she go without it now that she's discovered the non-fight/flight response?


In this case the Ecollar wasn't used specifically to teach the dog OB. It was used to teach her that the world was not a frightening place. Once she learned that, the Ecollar was no longer necessary. 

But I advocate that dogs who are taught OB with it wear the Ecollar all the time just for insurance purposes. Keep in mind that a dog is a living, thinking organism that at any time, can decide to disobey a command. When that happens in a life threatening situation, for example, failing to recall when running towards a busy street, the Ecollar is the ONLY tool that allows you the chance to remind your dog that obeying commands is not an option. 

But there are many people who want to remove the Ecollar after the dog is trained. SAR handlers, PSD (Police Service Dog) handlers and people who compete in the sports can't have the Ecollar on the dog during certifications or competitions. There's a method on my site that I suggest to wean the dog off the Ecollar.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Roma's story is extremely inspiring. At the risk of hijacking this thread....I just applied to join the forum on Lou's website. I am interested in learning more about e collars as another tool in my bag. 


"back on topic now"


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I found good Info for my Female at http://www.k9aggression.com

Good luck.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

What happened to the OP?


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWWhat happened to the OP?


I was wondering the same thing!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I hope we did not scare her off. I would love to see her suceed with her dog.


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## puppymamma (Jun 26, 2009)

Hi JenJay - 
I understand your pain, mine is tricky in training too. It sounds like you have a great area to be walking and really exercising your dog. I wouldn't want to leash at that time either. However, if your dog Knows his is free to disobey your commands when she is free, that's not working. Too much choice for the dog. If she disobeys the recall when walking, go get her and put her back on leash for a while and then try again in the same walk. Of course praising when she does recall. She'll learn soon enough that she has to earn the freedom you give her on a walk. 
Good luck.


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