# Too old to desensitize to gun shots?



## k9sarneko

I know that this is not the SAR section but I need help for LE for my SAR dog Lexi.

She is 8 years old, has worked SAR successfully for a long time. She is usually fearless and gives me no fear related issues....except for one. 

She has developed a terrible fear of any gunshots. We did not get her as a pup, she was about a year old so were not able to desensitize her as we did the others. Over the years she reacted somewhat but never like she is doing now. We live in the country and people are often target shooting ect. She has become rediculous with her fears and will try to tear down the fence to get inside if anyone shoots in the area. Her behavior has affected the whole pack and now they all try to get in.

We have separated the others and taken them out one by one to gage their reaction on their own and they are fine. Occasionally a flinch but nothing overly reactive, its just when Lexi is with them that the react.

So this is our situation. Is it possible to desensitze her at this age? How do we go about it without getting herself or one of us hurt in the process? I cannot have her reacting like this if we are out on a search and it is neccessary for LE to discharge a fire arm. She is a fantastic area search dog and by no means is ready for retirement. When the others were pups it was easy, play time accompanied by gunfire, starting with the 22 and building up calaber. Even the 12 gage does not bother them when she is not around.

I would appreciate any assistance or ideas,


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## ladylaw203

> Quote: So this is our situation. Is it possible to desensitze her at this age? How do we go about it without getting herself or one of us hurt in the process? I cannot have her reacting like this if we are out on a search and it is neccessary for LE to discharge a fire arm. She is a fantastic area search dog and by no means is ready for retirement. When the others were pups it was easy, play time accompanied by gunfire, starting with the 22 and building up calaber. Even the 12 gage does not bother them when she is not around.


I had to be discouraging, but gunsyness/sound sensitivity is genetic. One cannot "desensitize" a dog out of this because it is a consequence of weak nerves. How does the dog react to severe thunderstorms? bulldozers and the like? We test police service dogs for gunshyness. Any negative reaction and we do not purchase the dog . sorry


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## k9sarneko

Renee, thats what throws this whole thing off. She doesn't like severe thunderstorms (a little pacing and licking but nothing crazy). Working around large equipment bulldozers ect are no problem, nothing so much as a head check. She has heard gunfire in previous years on searches and there was no huge reaction. This seems to have escalated over the last year or so and only at home. I had her ears checked and the vet said there is nothing wrong there. I do not even know if she would react strongly out in the field at this point but wanted to know if there was anything we could do to help with this situation. I guess it is what it is.


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## khawk

I had a friend with a dog she wished to work in Schutzhund. The dog was gunshy, and she was told that she would never be successful with that particular dog because of that problem. She took it as a challenge, and, over time, was able to so thoroughly desensitize the dog to gunfire that the dog eventually was able to earn not only the Sch I title, but to go all the way through to a SchIII title. Pat proved that it can be done. It took time, determination, a good deal of planning, the help and cooperation of other people and effort. I believe that in most cases people declare that such dogs are unsalvageable because they simply do not want to put in the time and effort. 

Pat desensitized her dog by using a very matter of fact tone of voice and manner while working her dog on leash while in the presence of gunfire. At first the gunfire was produced from an area very far away, so that the sound was barely audible to the human ear. Slowly, very, very slowly, Pat brought the dog closer to the sound, ignoring it herself and occasionally treating and playing with toys with the dog--not as a response to the gunfire, but just as a general atmosphere she created around the dog. Gradually, she increased the calibre of the guns used and decreased the distance between the dog and the sound and eventually, the dog learned to ignore it and continue working without any reaction. This did not happen in a matter of days! It took months, and a good deal of dedication, and steady nerves on Pat's part. My comment: Pat was not a neophyte trainer. She had trained numerous SchIII dogs in the past, and had a SchIII champion in Germany, Czechoslovakia, and the United States. She knew what she was doing. 

All that said, I see no reason for you not to try. Whether you succeed or not, you will have learned something to add to your store of knowledge about dogs and training, and it seems to me that end is always a good one, and may help you in future with other dogs. People working 'professional' dogs such as military and police dogs simply do not have the time or the money to spend with a dog which is not optimal to begin with. They have budget and time constraints which do not allow them to do this kind of long term desensitization. You do not have to allow yourself to be limited by such considerations if you do not want to with your own personal dog. Good luck. Khawk


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## Chris Wild

But there is a pretty big difference between desensitizing a dog to hearing 2 small gunshots at 2 particular points in a prescribed routine and environment that the dog has constant exposure too, and doing the same with regards to SAR or LEO work.

Also, even if a dog does react to gunshots in SchH, unless it has a complete meltdown it will still pass the trial. And even if it fails the trial, that's hardly life or death. SAR and LEO ARE life or death in many cases.

Can it be done? Yes. But it's much harder to get the dog to globalize that behavior and lack of reaction than it is to teach the dog to do it in a specific time and place when it's part of a comfortable routine. Would it be worth trying, well only the OP can decide if she has the time and resources to try, and what the potential consequences could be if a dog thought to be trained out of the issue has a relapse at some point in the future.


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## ladylaw203

> Quote:. She took it as a challenge, and, over time, was able to so thoroughly desensitize the dog to gunfire that the dog eventually was able to earn not only the Sch I title, but to go all the way through to a SchIII title. Pat proved that it can be done. It took time, determination, a good deal of planning, the help and cooperation of other people and effort. I believe that in most cases people declare that such dogs are unsalvageable because they simply do not want to put in the time and effort.


THAT is the reason that sport is pretty worthless when it comes to an evaluation for a working dog. I have seen many dogs in 20 years that were trained to pass that arbitrary routine. Get them out in the real world and they fold up because they are STILL gunshy/ nervy. A good trainer can get a weak dog to title because sport is a routine. Working dogs have to do their job anywhere. It is never routine.


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## ladylaw203

> Quote:Also, even if a dog does react to gunshots in SchH, unless it has a complete meltdown it will still pass the trial. And even if it fails the trial, that's hardly life or death. SAR and LEO ARE life or death in many cases.


Exactly. Folks do not understand that a weak dog can survive that routine but put that dog out somewhere working, under stress and forget it. The weakness surfaces. We wash those nervy dogs for police work because we know the genetic weakness cannot be fixed, not because we do not want to spend the time. All the time in the world will not make a weak dog solid enough for real work


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## spoil9

Quick question for everyone,
If I live in the suburbs in Illinois where I do not have access to an open outdoor range nearby, are there ways to test for gun shyness? As posted in another thread, I'm looking into PPD and it sure would suck for the situation to arise where I need that training only to find out that she is gun shy and runs the other way.
Thanks everyone.


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## WiscTiger

I take my dogs to trap ranges or sporting clay ranges. I can get a solid idea of sound sensitivty in my dogs. 3 out of the 4 have no problems with going to either place. I keep a decent distance on first arrival to look for reactions. Two of my dogs have walked the Sporting Clay course with my DH and other shooters. I don't let them stand right next to the shooters, but a distance of 10 ft or more. My female likes to watch those little orange things fly out, so she looks where they are going and then moves so she has the best view.

Just my experience, if dogs tolerate a lot of shooting like Trap or Clays, the Gun shot test is not going to be a problem.


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## Lauri & The Gang

> Originally Posted By: spoil9Quick question for everyone,
> If I live in the suburbs in Illinois where I do not have access to an open outdoor range nearby, are there ways to test for gun shyness? As posted in another thread, I'm looking into PPD and it sure would suck for the situation to arise where I need that training only to find out that she is gun shy and runs the other way.
> Thanks everyone.


Where in IL? Grayslake has an outdoor range and there are some places just over the border in WI that have them.


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## GranvilleGSD

If you don't have access to guns or a shooting range, I had my dad light single firecrackers from a distance while I worked with onlead heeling exercises. Not quite a gun, but the noise and smell are similar.

For the OP, it sounds like the dog was fine for many years, and is now having major problems, am I correct? This makes me think that perhaps something happened, perhaps while you were not home, that gives her a negative association with the gun shots. I had a dog that never ever had a problem with storms until one day while I was at work there was a terrible hail storm that destroyed the metal awning above my front door. It had to be an awful noise, and she was then afraid of storms after that. Anytime after that incident that we had a storm, I got her to play with me, and work on some obedience work, praising every positive and neutral reaction to the storm. She has recovered from the incident, and storms no longer phase her.

There is a difference between dogs that genetically have weak nerves and dogs that experience a frightening incident. Do people who suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome have weak nerves? Probably not. May not be the same thing, but I think it's similar.


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## ladylaw203

> Quote:There is a difference between dogs that genetically have weak nerves and dogs that experience a frightening incident. Do people who suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome have weak nerves? Probably not. May not be the same thing, but I think it's similar.


Actually, there is not. A totally sound dog is not going to be traumatized permanently by a single incident. The OP is concerned about the dog because it is a SAR dog, not a pet. The dog may or may not get over this. My dogs have survived hurricanes blowing through and gone back to work. Now, how often the OP's dog might be exposed to gunfire,I don't know. If that is the only noise that the dog reacts to, working career really might not be in jeopardy.


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## k9sarneko

Well, I got my answer to my own question yesterday about how Lexi would react when out on a search ect with gun fire yesterday. I had the dogs out for their daily walk and play session yesterday on the property. I was in the back of our 10 acres when the shots started. Small caliber rapid fire. Lexi never reacted! Not so much as a head check in that direction. In fact the only dog to even show anything was my HRD dog who did one small head check in that direction and then kept playing.

So here is my question, why would Lexi show such a severe reaction when out in the yard but nothing when out with me? Am I the stability in this situation? When she has reacted in the yard I was not out with her at the time but I have walked out in the yard with her and she still just wants to get in the house.

Is this a situational behavior she has developed? Lexi has always been a confident secure dog when working, why would she be so much more reactive in the back yard? While yesterday pleased me greatly to see her so nonreactive it also adds to this puzzle.


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## ladylaw203

> Quote:Is this a situational behavior she has developed? Lexi has always been a confident secure dog when working, why would she be so much more reactive in the back yard? While yesterday pleased me greatly to see her so nonreactive it also adds to this puzzle.
> _________________________



I would bet that something happened in your yard that is connected to the gunshots in close proximity to her. Gunfire at a distance is apparently not a problem for her


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