# General question about Schutzhund



## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

I was wondering if your dog needed a certain personality to do this training? I was interested in this training, but my Dax is quite goofy and friendly. I wouldn't want to change this nature of his, so do you think Schutzhund is not for him?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Goofy and friendly is fine. Underneath all that goofyness, there may lie a solid soul willing to fight for a cause.  The 'right' temperament for schutzhund is a dog with drive, courage and confidence. The fight drive can be brought out in training, and if done well (the way it is supposed to be done), it won't change who your dog is. It will just help him mature and become more confident. My boy is SUPER friendly and goofy. But in training his more serious side comes out. Then he goes back to being his usually cuddly self with everyone.

Take your boy to a club and have him evaluated. Experienced people will be able to read him and see what he is made of.


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## Celtic Wolf (Oct 5, 2011)

*Shutzhund*

Protection dog trials for protection, obedience, and tracking require commitment of the Handler and focus of and for the dog.

Goofy is in my view simply a behavior, yet
training is focus between owner and dog.

My only Shutzhund or French F Ring is making
the dog too submissive.

Be aware of making your dog a Robit.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Celtic Wolf said:


> My only Shutzhund or French F Ring is making
> the dog too submissive.
> 
> Be aware of making your dog a Robit.


I have no idea what any of this means, but am betting I wouldn't agree with it.

Anyway....

Goofy doesn't preclude a dog from doing SchH. But yes, it does take a certain temperament to be successful in SchH, and to enjoy doing SchH. The only way to know if your dog possesses that or not would be to visit some local clubs and have him evaluated, and of course during those visits you'll have the opportunity to get a much better idea of what all is involved in the training (yes it DOES require a huge committment from handler and dog) to see if it's something you might want to pursue.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A german Shepherd with good German Shepherd temperament takes to Sch like a retreiver to water,(afterall sch was created for the GS to show he has correct German Shepherd temperament), having said that, there are many breeders that are producing GS that don't do well in Sch. This is a deficiency of the breeding and the individual dog and not the sport. ( that doesn't make the dog less, it just mean that as with all dogs there are some components that aren't up to standard) Sch will not make a dog robotic, but it will make for a much better relationship between the dog and owner/handler.


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

Is there an age where it is too late to start? I understand that it must take a huge commitment, and right now I am finishing vet school, so don't have a lot of time. This is something I would like to look into after vet school. He is about 16 months old now, I am wondering if I could wait a year?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would say 10 years is too late to start


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

Catu said:


> I would say 10 years is too late to start


That makes me feel better!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dax is 16 months old? That is partly why he is goofy. The boys can be that way until they mature.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Ok, so we know what is "too old"...but what is a good age to start?


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

jprice103 said:


> Ok, so we know what is "too old"...but what is a good age to start?


Whenever I get the dog. Eight weeks, eight months, whatever. Just do things that are appropriate for his age and abilities.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One thing I've seen when dogs are started later, if they've had alot of obedience foundation when young, they may be more dependent on their handler and will be inhibited in certain drives. 
It isn't that big a deal if the dog has "it" but a bit more work/time may be needed to bring out the power and confidence so the dog can work on its own. 

When I got my pup(SchH was my plan) I let him be a pup, didn't do much obedience-wise, hardly corrected him and let him think he was the best thing in the world. Of course he had to have manners, but I let him be himself. He was/is always a good dog anyway, so corrections have been few even now.
If you don't have time now to start with a group, you could always track in your spare time and work on different phases of the obedience exercises.


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## southernfiction (Oct 5, 2011)

Have you read the Schutzhund books? I haven't been able to locate any clubs or dog-owners close enough to me to work with, so I've been depending on the Schutzhund I and Advanced Shutzhund books, plus joining this site. Been on here two days now and I've been helped a lot.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I am going for my first Shutzhund meeting this Saturday / obedience. Stella is 8.5 months and she has already graduated basic and intermediate obedience. She is also attended some agility and obedience classes at another facility.

They do their Shutzhund tracking on Sunday and Protection work on Thursdays but we will probably only get to do obedience this weekend because we have some social/work obligations on Sunday for a luncheon...


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Thank you! Cheyenne is 9 months...and I am VERY interested in Schutzhund training with her. She has a VERY strong prey drive, and a very strong protective drive. Would love to see this really developed. I just didn't want to start too early. I will start contacting local clubs immediately!


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Cheyenne is beautiful!!!


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## Celtic Wolf (Oct 5, 2011)

*Shutzhund*

At the core of Shutzhund training I see is consistency in obedience for the dig with it's handler.
Whether it be the Protection or the Tracking trials in Shutzhund, your dog needs to be totally focused on you.
It takes a great deal of persistent discipline for both of you. 
Getting to SH3 is s long yet rewarding journey.
Great exercise for the dog, and similar rewards for the handler.


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> One thing I've seen when dogs are started later, if they've had alot of obedience foundation when young, they may be more dependent on their handler and will be inhibited in certain drives.
> It isn't that big a deal if the dog has "it" but a bit more work/time may be needed to bring out the power and confidence so the dog can work on its own.
> 
> When I got my pup(SchH was my plan) I let him be a pup, didn't do much obedience-wise, hardly corrected him and let him think he was the best thing in the world. Of course he had to have manners, but I let him be himself. He was/is always a good dog anyway, so corrections have been few even now.
> If you don't have time now to start with a group, you could always track in your spare time and work on different phases of the obedience exercises.


We have done some agility with him which he is really good at. I do try to keep him doing something. I want to get him into tracking, but I am having a lot of trouble finding a trainer in the area.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The book Tracking from the Beginning by Gary Patterson is a very good one. Another one(harder to find) is Precision tracking dogs
If you can find someone to track with and follow either method, you should be fine. Even doing it on your own is ok, but it is good for the dog to learn to have someone following the handler so distractions will be normal. When you trial, the judge will be nearby.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Stella's Mom said:


> Cheyenne is beautiful!!!


Thank you! I think so too, but of course I'm biased!


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

I contacted a local Schutzhund trainer and had a session with him today. He basically told me that Cheyenne is NOT a candidate for Schutzhund. She just doesn't have enough drive. She has no food drive, no ball drive...just no drive whatsoever! Oh well! We are getting a puppy next summer, so I'm hoping that he will have a little more drive so we can do Schutzhund! Anyway...the meeting with the trainer was actually very productive. I'm going to be meeting with him for the next few weeks...as Cheyenne is a very well behaved dog..but has a LOT of work to do to be totally focused and totally obedient. I had taken her to Puppy Kindergarten and Obedience 1...but realized that a group training class just wasn't focusing on what I needed to do for HER. If nothing else...this got me pointed in the right direction for the right training for her...so that is good!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Psst, Jessica... do you mind PMing me who you are working with?


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

jprice103 said:


> I contacted a local Schutzhund trainer and had a session with him today. He basically told me that Cheyenne is NOT a candidate for Schutzhund. She just doesn't have enough drive. She has no food drive, no ball drive...just no drive whatsoever! Oh well! We are getting a puppy next summer, so I'm hoping that he will have a little more drive so we can do Schutzhund! Anyway...the meeting with the trainer was actually very productive. I'm going to be meeting with him for the next few weeks...as Cheyenne is a very well behaved dog..but has a LOT of work to do to be totally focused and totally obedient. I had taken her to Puppy Kindergarten and Obedience 1...but realized that a group training class just wasn't focusing on what I needed to do for HER. If nothing else...this got me pointed in the right direction for the right training for her...so that is good!


What kind of drive do they need? Dax has absolutely no food drive, but a very strong prey drive. I don't know if that would be good for Sch or not? We have a lot of trouble getting him to focus as well because he is so focused on anything that moves (which means any other dog in the class). We are making progress with agility though, but that is because he loves sprinting and obstacles. I don't know if the strict obedience for Sch would suit him. Maybe when he is a little older and calmer... :S


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

That is the same with Cheyenne. No food drive...but strong prey drive. But apparently prey drive isn't enough for Schutzhund. The trainer asked about her ball drive...which I thought was pretty high, because that is her FAVORITE game/toy. But then he brought out a ball and bounced it...and she just looked at it! Grrrr.... He basically told me that in order to do Schutzhund or Tracking, there has to be something that your dog goes ballistic over. I guess for Cheyenne there is nothing...or we just haven't found it yet. Now if there was a rabbit or cat in the field where we were...he would have definitely seen some type of drive!!


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

jprice103 said:


> That is the same with Cheyenne. No food drive...but strong prey drive. But apparently prey drive isn't enough for Schutzhund. The trainer asked about her ball drive...which I thought was pretty high, because that is her FAVORITE game/toy. But then he brought out a ball and bounced it...and she just looked at it! Grrrr.... He basically told me that in order to do Schutzhund or Tracking, there has to be something that your dog goes ballistic over. I guess for Cheyenne there is nothing...or we just haven't found it yet. Now if there was a rabbit or cat in the field where we were...he would have definitely seen some type of drive!!



Haha! I know that feeling! We always joke in agility about how if we could just train our cat to run the course, Dax would stay focused and be a superstar running the course after him! lol. 

We have managed to get dax to focus somewhat in agility using a tug toy, I wonder if that would be enough for Sch....


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

jprice103 said:


> That is the same with Cheyenne. No food drive...but strong prey drive. But apparently prey drive isn't enough for Schutzhund. The trainer asked about her ball drive...which I thought was pretty high, because that is her FAVORITE game/toy. But then he brought out a ball and bounced it...and she just looked at it! Grrrr.... He basically told me that in order to do Schutzhund or Tracking, there has to be something that your dog goes ballistic over. I guess for Cheyenne there is nothing...or we just haven't found it yet. Now if there was a rabbit or cat in the field where we were...he would have definitely seen some type of drive!!


Sometimes it's not that much about the level of drive as about the nerve. Many dogs are crazy for the ball when they are home, but are not able to focus and motivate in the same way when they are in a stressful environment. After all, tug and ball are not only prey drive, but also play drive and the first thing an animal does when he feels something is not right is stop playing. Some dogs are weak nerved and never overcome it, but many others, through socialization and training learn that they can play wherever they are, other pups just need to mature a bit before they start to shine.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

Yes...there were many comments today about Cheyenne being weak nerved...so that does say something. At home, if I produce a ball...it is 100% focus...but there in a strange field, with a strange man...she was a bag of nerves.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

We are going to our first Shutzhund meeting tomorrow, signing up for the 90 day probationary period. I hope my girls ball drive is enough to keep her in it.

She is stark raving crazy about her ball at the park. She will out run and out maneuver any other dog at the park if they dare try to go after a thrown ball at the same time.

God forbid if another dog even sniffs around her ball if she has it in her mouth. She will growl and lower her head and let it be known....NO way are you taking my ball from me.

She will also go after another person throwing it so my fingers are crossed.

The other cool thing she does is help me look for balls on the field. She puts her nose on the ground and starts sniffing for them. Then she will pick it up and either drop it in the same place as her other ball or drops it and nudges it with her nose to make sure I see where the balls are hiding.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

She's young too though... Isn't 8 months a fear period? She's never struck me as weak nerved when I've seen her. She may never be right for SchH but you can get her out more to be comfortable around more people.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> She's young too though... Isn't 8 months a fear period? She's never struck me as weak nerved when I've seen her. She may never be right for SchH but you can get her out more to be comfortable around more people.


I'm hoping. I don't want her to be a nervous wreck...so I will continue to socialize her and help get past this any way I can. I am hoping that with maturity, will come confidence...and will do anything I can to help that along. But you are right, she may never be right for SchH and I'm ok with that. I won't ever try to push my dog beyond her limits. Her happiness is my foremost concern. I just want to make sure that I give her all the right stimulation and socialization to make her a well rounded, happy puppy! The only reason I would have dont SchH is for her...I could really care less!


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> She's young too though... Isn't 8 months a fear period? She's never struck me as weak nerved when I've seen her. She may never be right for SchH but you can get her out more to be comfortable around more people.


My dog is 8.5 months and I am going to introduce her to Shutzhund tomorrow.
She is not weak nerved at all though.

They don't test until the dogs at the club I will attend until they are 18 months for Shutzhund 1 and 19 months for Shutzhund 2 and I think at least 24 months for Shutzhund 3. This will give her a lot of time to train starting at 8.5 months.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Weak nerves can be a problem for Sch work, lack of ball drive or even little prey drive will not stop a dog from doing sch. Many of the DDR dogs have little prey drive and they attain titles. Also, many dogs mature later even with drives. My last showline dog whom had great nerve, did not kick into wanting to really bite the prey until she was around 20 months. Then the light kicked on and she was very adequate in bitework. The weak nerves if true and severe enough will hinder you, but again many is the dog that the first time in a new environment will not give a true indication of their drives or what they will do when fully acclimated like home. I have seen some dogs in our club come to training at 9,10 months and show absolutely no drive. At two years old the same dog was really doing well, also too much obedience too young with a not as strong dog will definitely inhibit the drive when brought to new place. Just some thoughts.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Weak nerves can be a problem for Sch work, lack of ball drive or even little prey drive will not stop a dog from doing sch. Many of the DDR dogs have little prey drive and they attain titles. Also, many dogs mature later even with drives. My last showline dog whom had great nerve, did not kick into wanting to really bite the prey until she was around 20 months. Then the light kicked on and she was very adequate in bitework. The weak nerves if true and severe enough will hinder you, but again many is the dog that the first time in a new environment will not give a true indication of their drives or what they will do when fully acclimated like home. I have seen some dogs in our club come to training at 9,10 months and show absolutely no drive. At two years old the same dog was really doing well, also too much obedience too young with a not as strong dog will definitely inhibit the drive when brought to new place. Just some thoughts.


Yeah, I'm thinking that I can work with her...and see if we can improve her nerves and drives. I'm not going to totally give up, but maybe just wait until this time next year to see where we are with her.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cliff.....good post!


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