# Dog parks



## ShepherdsAndPitbulls (Dec 9, 2015)

I use to never take my dogs to dog parks. 
But now that we moved an have an off leash dog park less then 10 minutes away, I have taken them often and they LOVE it .

I know some people who would never dare take their dogs to a dog park.
What are your opinions ? Should I continue taking them . Or stop altogether ?


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

You can do a search on this. There are SOOOOO many posts on dog parks.
Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Pit Bulls at the Dog Park

Some people bring their pit bulls to off-leash dog parks because they want to show the world how wonderful they are and dispel the rumors and negative media hype. They trust their dogs because they haven't (yet) shown any aggression towards anything. This is irresponsible and here's why... 

It is a FACT that our pit bulls, AmStaffs and pit mixes come with a built-in fighting heritage. It doesn’t matter where we get them from, whether it be the pound, a stray we pick up, or a puppy we buy from a breeder. The majority of pit bulls will, at some point in their lives, exhibit some degree of dog-on-dog aggression. This type of animal aggression is completely separate from human-aggression; a well-socialized pit bull is very good-natured with people. Yet, chances are that a "normal" pit bull will not share his affection with other animals. We cannot predict when or where it will happen and we can’t love, train or socialize it out of the dog. Pit bulls may not start fights, but they will finish them. 
If your pit bull is involved in a fight at a dog park, it fuels breed-specific legislation and affects the rights of others to own these dogs. 

http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRC_dogpark.pdf


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL "Dog Parks!" I know that I only have written "literally" thousands of anti 'Dog Park" post! Some of them are here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/595722-great-article-about-dog-parks-5.html

Dog Park Ready - Page 4 - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

PRo's that work with Dog's with serious freaking issues don't do Dog Parks and they advise their clients to do the same. 

By and large most "Dog Park " people "expect to find dogs like my Boxer "Struddell" at Dog Parks (and Boxers can get on a Dog's last nerve, I'll add) but what many of them find are dogs like my American Band Dawg (who rolled out the box not carrying much for other dogs??) I did my fellow clueless pet owners a favor and did not take him to dog parks. Lot's of owners aren't that bright or simply don't care .... "my dog is not my problem ... it's your problem!"

As long as your willing to engage in UDF (Ultimate Dog Fighting) to protect your dog??
Knock yourself out and "Dog Park" away! If your not best policy is to stay clear! In any case, this would be handy to know:

Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt

Have fun at the "dog Park."


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

In defense of Pits they are not the only dog aggressive dogs out there. Any breed has the potential to not be a good dog park dog including GSDs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have been going to dog parks for going on fifteen years with my German Shepherds. My dogs have NEVER once started anything. In fact, I don't believe that I have ever seen a GSD start anything in a dog park, although on rare occasion I have seen a dog of a different breed start something.

I found to have peace in a dog park, there are three simple rules:

1.) No food/treats
2.) No toys
3.) No Pit Bulls


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I would add:
4.) No tiny dogs in the big-dog side of the park (they need to go in their own separate fenced in area)
5.) Keep moving with the dogs, and leave your phone in your pocket (no texting, etc.)

I've seen some problems get started by little dogs with Napoleon-complexes. Terrier-ists seem to love to show off by trying to start stuff with the biggest dog in the park.

I've seen other problems get started because the owners are gabbing at a table in the shade, ignoring the dogs, or by themselves on a bench with eyes glued to their phones. You have to supervise! Keeping moving has a nearly magical effect on the dogs because suddenly there's no territorial space around the owners. If you watch where problems start, there's almost always a stationary owner nearby--that space around the tables where the owners are gabbing is the WORST. 

I've gone to dog parks for years. My dogs have never had a problem. The problems are always far away from us. If there's another dog who wants to start a problem, I intervene first before it happens...inevitably, it goes away to find trouble elsewhere since there's a bossy human around. If there's bad ju-ju in the air when we are there, we leave. We go at off-peak times when it's not crowded (NOT after work!)--early on a Sunday morning is a very good time. We also often arrange for other dogs and owners we know and like to be there too.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have been going to dog parks for going on fifteen years with my German Shepherds. My dogs have NEVER once started anything. In fact, I don't believe that I have ever seen a GSD start anything in a dog park, although on rare occasion I have seen a dog of a different breed start something.
> 
> I found to have peace in a dog park, there are three simple rules:
> 
> ...


I think you might be on to something. Same with Mag who mentions "keep moving."

The park we frequent is set up for hiking, so you can just move along if you want to avoid a certain dog or owner or cluster. It doesn't allow food or toys. It does allow pit bulls but you don't see many of them at that park. I think it's due to location; more of the pit owners are in a different part of the Twin Cities metro. When a pit bull or pit mix does come into the park, word spreads as the other owners move around and encounter each other. A pit isn't going to enter the park without most people becoming aware relatively early on.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Pit Bulls at the Dog Park
> 
> Some people bring their pit bulls to off-leash dog parks because they want to show the world how wonderful they are and dispel the rumors and negative media hype. They trust their dogs because they haven't (yet) shown any aggression towards anything. This is irresponsible and here's why...
> 
> ...


Yeahhh, no. My pit mix was a sweet heart who never showed any type of aggression to dogs or cats. However, the last time we went to a dog park, he was attacked by another dog. (I'll let you guess what breed that was.) And, no he didn't "finish" the fight. He ran to me crying.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Liulfr said:


> Yeahhh, no. My pit mix was a sweet heart who never showed any type of aggression to dogs or cats. However, the last time we went to a dog park, he was attacked by another dog. (I'll let you guess what breed that was.) And, no he didn't "finish" the fight. He ran to me crying.


N=1


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> Yeahhh, no. My pit mix was a sweet heart who never showed any type of aggression to dogs or cats. However, the last time we went to a dog park, he was attacked by another dog. (I'll let you guess what breed that was.) And, no he didn't "finish" the fight. He ran to me crying.


Yeahhhh, no. If you weren't so busy being one of these people: "Some people bring their pit bulls to off-leash dog parks because they want to show the world how wonderful they are and dispel the rumors and negative media hype. They trust their dogs because they haven't (yet) shown any aggression towards anything. This is irresponsible and here's why... "

You would have noted that the comment I made was a direct copy and paste from Pit Bull Rescue Central. There is no need to shoot the messenger.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

I used to take Dynamo to the dogpark, otherwise, there was not much interaction with dogs. 
Conclusion: agree with the anti-dog park folks at least for the one I went to.
Here's what I saw. No one paid attention to their dogs. No one but me had any control of their dogs. No one could tell the difference between play and bullying.
I went multiple times because Dynamo was a big dog who could hold her own and had a keen sense of how to behave with dogs to keep herself safe but I really needed eyes in the back of my head, and it wasn't fun.
Dogs play too rough, then I worry if it'll ramp my dog up. Dogs run too fast, and I worry it will trigger dangerous prey drive.
People bring in terrified 'doormat' dogs that get bullied by all the other dogs, which is terrifying for the target dog, and teaches the worst possible behaviour to dogs that would otherwise play nice. I always called Dynamo out of 'that pack' when they headed over to swarm the 'doormat' dog. No one else did a single thing, including 'doormat's owner'. She kept bringing him/her back, ugh. The dog was unhappy, why would she do that, poor dog. And what were those other dogs learning, and what happens to those dogs if the so called play (it wasn't, but people thought it was) turned into an attack. That could get ugly for both the victim and aggressor. I didn't want Dynamo to be anywhere near that group on the day that happens.
So I used the park to practice obedience and recalls (it actually had a decent off-leash trail where one could do this), and gave her limited opportunities to play with appropriate dogs (dog combo's that actually played) but it was the opposite of relaxing, and not much fun for me, not much fun for weaker dogs, and I stopped going.
So, much as I believe in dogs having and getting off-leash exercise (which is a whole other thing), the supposed free-for-all of a designated dogpark is not for me. Maybe with another dog, a different dogpark, who knows, I like to keep an open mind, but what I saw first hand wasn't pretty.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

I found to have peace in a dog park said:


> that no toys rule is whats best in my opinion. My dog does really well at these parks unless there are toys. He will go play with the dogs but if there's a ball all he wants to do is chase it. he will ignore the other dogs and not play with them, choosing instead to try and get me to throw the ball (which I do many times a day haha) When I drive all the way to the dog park (usually only twice a week) I want him to run around and play and have fun!! not just do the same game we always play. Lately I've noticed sometimes he will get a little defensive over the ball too. That's when I put it up and tell him "no more". Then boom. just like magic, he's playing chase or getting chased around and having a grand old time.
> 
> Then, almost always...in walks some owner with their dog and 3 or 4 balls they just chuck out..and suddenly the games are over and it's all about the ball.
> 
> ...


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## ShepherdsAndPitbulls (Dec 9, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> Yeahhh, no. My pit mix was a sweet heart who never showed any type of aggression to dogs or cats. However, the last time we went to a dog park, he was attacked by another dog. (I'll let you guess what breed that was.) And, no he didn't "finish" the fight. He ran to me crying.


I also have a pit mix. He is mixed with a lab. He's never shown any aggression. Not saying there isnt still a chance he still could. he is only 2. But I feel having Lab in him, he wont have that natural agression.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ShepherdsAndPitbulls said:


> I also have a pit mix. He is mixed with a lab. He's never shown any aggression. Not saying there isnt still a chance he cold. he is only 2. But I feel having Lab in him, he wont have that natural agression.


So you are willing to find out by taking him to a dog park and risking somebody else's dog?


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## ShepherdsAndPitbulls (Dec 9, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yeahhhh, no. If you weren't so busy being one of these people: "Some people bring their pit bulls to off-leash dog parks because they want to show the world how wonderful they are and dispel the rumors and negative media hype. They trust their dogs because they haven't (yet) shown any aggression towards anything. This is irresponsible and here's why... "
> 
> You would have noted that the comment I made was a direct copy and paste from Pit Bull Rescue Central. There is no need to shoot the messenger.


Yes rescues say no dog parks! My sister has a American Pitbull Terrier. She is GREAT with other dogs and people , Very well mannered and professionally trained. But my sister would not dare take her to a dog park, due to the possibility of un noticed aggression occurring..

I was curious though because my two-year-old pit is mixed with lab. 50/50 .


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## ShepherdsAndPitbulls (Dec 9, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So you are willing to find out by taking him to a dog park and risking somebody else's dog?


I have taken him to the dog park, This thread is asking if I should stop. 
He's been there multiple times with no problems as he focuses on his GSd playmate who is there when we go. I had a conversation with my sister though an she absolutely said I need to quit. So I was curious on what others thought.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yeahhhh, no. If you weren't so busy being one of these people: "Some people bring their pit bulls to off-leash dog parks because they want to show the world how wonderful they are and dispel the rumors and negative media hype. They trust their dogs because they haven't (yet) shown any aggression towards anything. This is irresponsible and here's why... "
> 
> You would have noted that the comment I made was a direct copy and paste from Pit Bull Rescue Central. There is no need to shoot the messenger.


Not sure what you mean by "those people," but I am perfectly capable of reading. It was not my intention to "shoot the messenger" I was just replying to the statement. I mean, that is the point of a forum, isn't it?

I personally never tried to use my dog as an ambassador for the breed. (And yes I'm aware that is my personal experience and is not representative of every pit owner ever. The snarky "N=1" comment was a bit unnecessary.) We didn't have a yard, and the dog park was one block from my house. We always went when it was empty. One day another group showed up and a GSD bit my dog while he was at the water fountain. Thankfully the owner was super responsible and offered to pay the vet bill. But the incident was enough to keep me away from dog parks forever.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ShepherdsAndPitbulls said:


> I have taken him to the dog park, This thread is asking if I should stop.
> He's been there multiple times with no problems as he focuses on his GSd playmate who is there when we go. I had a conversation with my sister though an she absolutely said I need to quit. So I was curious on what others thought.


Reputable Pit Bull rescues work with hundreds of Pit Bulls and their mixes. All reputable Pit Bull rescues, even Tia Torres from Pit Bulls and Paroles say to keep a breed that has been bred for dog fighting for over one hundred years out of dog parks.


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## ShepherdsAndPitbulls (Dec 9, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Reputable Pit Bull rescues work with hundreds of Pit Bulls and their mixes. All reputable Pit Bull rescues, even Tia Torres from Pit Bulls and Paroles say to keep a breed that has been bred for dog fighting for over one hundred years out of dog parks.


I absolutely love that show.  Yes I know what they say, But wasn't sure if it was for all mixes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> Not sure what you mean by "those people," but I am perfectly capable of reading. It was not my intention to "shoot the messenger" I was just replying to the statement. I mean, that is the point of a forum, isn't it?
> 
> I personally never tried to use my dog as an ambassador for the breed. (And yes I'm aware that is my personal experience and is not representative of every pit owner ever. The snarky "N=1" comment was a bit unnecessary.) We didn't have a yard, and the dog park was one block from my house. We always went when it was empty. One day another group showed up and a GSD bit my dog while he was at the water fountain. Thankfully the owner was super responsible and offered to pay the vet bill. But the incident was enough to keep me away from dog parks forever.


You would not find the N=1 comment so offensive if you actually realized how many on this forum have been attacked by Pit Bulls themselves and how many have had our dogs (and cats, livestock, etc.) attacked by Pit Bulls. 

IMO, due to the sheer number of Pit Bull attacks, the day of going to other breed forums and not encountering resistance to hearing about Pit Bulls and how sweet they are has run its course. There are far more Pit Bull forums out there for people to discuss that breed, not so many for those who want to talk German Shepherds.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

There is an awesome dog park close to where I'm at. It is something like 7 acres fenced in, multiple entrances/exits. Multiple paths inside it to take. Semi wooded. The other entrances lead all over the place, allowing for some nice hiking. One path leads to a decent sized lake. The park also has an area on the other side of the parking lot, if you want to walk/jog (with or without your dog), have a picnic in the massive open field inside the paved 'circle.' It's supposed to be on leash, but I and others like to use that area for fetch practice when few people are around so that there are some distractions, but only minor ones.

It is absolutely important to have a very solid RECALL when going to any park/anytime your dog is off leash. It's also important to be able to read how dogs are interacting and knowing which ones to stay away from. Not that they're all bad, but if one person has a very dog friendly 9 month pup, they and the person with a lazy older dog that isn't interested in playing chase with pups should be kept away from each other, just so neither is frustrating the other. Although it is annoying when people bring very old, out of shape dogs to just walk...most people come to let their dogs interact and play at a dog park. If your dog just wants to walk and wants nothing to do with other dogs...you can do that literally anywhere. Yea, some of us can call our dog to leave it alone, but the average owner can't. When walking--and while keeping an eye on the dogs--I talk to the owners. "Oh, which is yours? Name? How old? Did you get him/her as a puppy? How recent of a rescue? First time here? Is this a new experience meeting lots of dogs?" Asking these types of questions can give you valuable insight into how the dog may react to other dogs & behaviors they may be unfamiliar with.

Understand some dogs may be recent rescues and a little nervous. Maybe keep your dog next to you when a bunch of dogs are walking by, so that the new dog can feel a little less overwhelmed. A lot of rescues come from bad previous homes, but you can tell they're just a sweetie wanting to make friends--just slowly. Yesterday I met a big rotty that was recently rescued & at a park for the first time. Was a good dog. Played with my dog very well. When a couple was walking by with their 3 dogs (they were super duper sweet, I was walking with them earlier), the rotty went over to the nearby trash can to hide a little. Poor baby.  Slowly introduced him to the dogs one by one, and he was happy again.  

The one downside to my local park is that there isn't a small dog section. Sorry, but small dogs generally suck because of their owners. Breeds like the Chihuahua and dachshund are not very dog sociable. Add in the fact that most people keep them inside locked inside their cramped apartment 22 hours/day with no outside dog or person interaction...they end up being the worst dogs at all the parks I've gone to. They are the dogs I'm most wary of, as owners are often laughing as their "cute little dog" is freaking out at the big dogs. It's not funny. Your dog is terrified and dangerous. Its mouth is like me taking a hunting knife to your ankle...a tendon could be damaged and an artery cut could cause major blood loss. It's not cool. And your terrified dog can hurt/freak out a larger dog to the point that it defends itself...I've never seen it happen, but I have read plenty of stories right on this forum about small dogs trying to attack a large dog, and with one bite and a toss, the small dog is severely injured or dead.

Honestly, GSDs, pit bulls, rottweilers, huskies, and dobermans are usually the happiest dogs at dog parks (well...at the nice dog parks; go into a Detroit dog park and I'm sure it's the opposite).
Has any else noticed those Australian Cattle dogs tend to HATE bigger dogs? I avoid them like the plague nowadays. I noticed whenever a larger dog is anywhere near the smaller dog areas at places, they stop what they're doing, sprint over, and start barking up a storm in a non-friendly manner. Or perhaps they think they need to herd the big dogs? lol 

Some days I'm at my local park and we'll have a pack of about 15 dogs walking with us (the owners). All from ages less than a year to 8 years old. Never met one another until at the park. All larger dogs; mostly gsd mixes, husky mixes, pit bull mixes, rotty mixes, and what have you. All "big, bad, scary dogs" loving a nice stroll with a pack.

Make sure it's a good dog park. I've pulled up to some and then left. Make sure it has space for the number of dogs. 20 random dogs fenced into 1/3 of an acre is just a disaster waiting to happen. Don't go to a dog park just because it's nearby and called a dog park. A lot of people drive 30+ minutes to reach my nearby one because it's nice, spacious, and worth it.


I hope something in all this rambling helps.

Note: if you intend to bring your dog to seriously compete in shows, I would avoid dog parks due to the chance of an irresponsible dog owner being present.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ShepherdsAndPitbulls said:


> I absolutely love that show.  Yes I know what they say, But wasn't sure if it was for all mixes.


One really has no way of knowing just what genes your dog has inherited behaviorally in a mix.

John Paul Scott and John L Fuller carried out a series of selective breeding experiments at the Jackson Laboratories in Bar Harbor, Maine. By happy chance, their results revealed a simple rule that seems to work. Their general conclusion was that a mixed breed dog is most likely to act like the breed that it most looks like.

Just last week on a thread about body language, I posted a video of a Pit Bull that was either 12 or 13 years old that severely mauled a woman that had never shown a day of aggression in its life, at least that is what the owner stated. This is all too common among Pits, to go years without showing aggression until one day... Too many incidences on record.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

ShepherdsAndPitbulls said:


> I also have a pit mix. He is mixed with a lab. He's never shown any aggression. Not saying there isnt still a chance he still could. he is only 2. But I feel having Lab in him, he wont have that natural agression.


I had a half GSD - half Am Strat for 13 years. She was ok until she matured at around 2 1/2 yrs old. She didn't start fights but she sure finished them.She did kill two strays a couple of years apart that wandered onto our property when we were at work. Also if any other dogs started to fight, she was right in there. She didn't look like a Pit (32lbs small and didn't have their head shape) but it was in there alright. Where my male GSD/wolf would meet and greet stranger dogs and maybe they would do the initial growl or two or maybe a brief fight - it was ceremonial and there was a quick beginning and end to it and no dog got hurt. With her - once she was "triggered" it just didn't stop. Not when the other was completely in submissive posture - not for anything. It was horrible and she lost all freedom with other dogs because of it. 

Did your sister mention why she said "no more dog park"? It would seem that she knows your dog and it would be interesting to know what her reasons are. It could be because of the potential of the breed in general or because she has seen some subtle signs that this trait is there in your mix. It's just important that you know and take precautions. Puppies can try the patience of any dog - most get a "puppy pass" for acting crazy with most breeds - others can and will "lose it' and just flip all of the sudden and then there is a tragedy. Don't let your puppy irritate your mix. It's ok to separate them to keep peace until respect is learned by the pup. I hope you have the best outcome and everything works out. Just be cautious and mindful of what you have there.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> say to keep a breed that has been bred for dog fighting for over one hundred years out of dog parks.


 100+ years you say, huh...

https://www.cesarsway.com/about-dogs/pit-bulls/how-did-pit-bulls-get-a-bad-rap

"From the turn of the century until the early 1980s, there is exactly one dog attack story to make the national papers and mention pit bulls, but that?s probably because it involved a man intentionally siccing a pack of 26 dogs on a young woman."


"despite being illegal in all fifty states, dog fighting made a comeback in the 80s, and the pit bull is the dog of choice. It is also the preferred guard dog for drug dealers and gangs, with a hugely publicized attack in 1987 in which a pit bull guarding a marijuana crop in California mauls and kills a two-and-a-half year-old boy."


"The Houston Chronicle quotes unnamed officials as placing the blame for the problem squarely on humans. ?(M)any of the pit bull attacks are due to a skyrocketing number of poorly bred and badly trained dogs raised by backyard breeders, who are trying to cash in on the pit bull?s growing reputation as a cheap, but deadly effective guard dog, particularly in urban areas.?"

So...1980 wasn't 100+ years ago.
All these "bad" dogs come from drug dealers and ghetto areas. I'd be willing to bet that at least 90% of pit bull attacks happen within 50 miles of a ghetto area...

That's not the breed of dog. That's the breed of owner.

Also, with all the pit bull bannings, people have them to Chihuahua treatment: pent up inside all day. We all see how aggressive that breed results of poor ownership. It can happen to a pit bull, gsd, whippet, lab, and any other dog. Pent up energy and no socialization is bad for any breed.
I'd now bet a large part of that remaining 10% happens near banned/previously banned areas.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Liulfr said:


> Not sure what you mean by "those people," but I am perfectly capable of reading. It was not my intention to "shoot the messenger" I was just replying to the statement. I mean, that is the point of a forum, isn't it?
> 
> I personally never tried to use my dog as an ambassador for the breed. (And yes I'm aware that is my personal experience and is not representative of every pit owner ever. The snarky "N=1" comment was a bit unnecessary.) We didn't have a yard, and the dog park was one block from my house. We always went when it was empty. One day another group showed up and a GSD bit my dog while he was at the water fountain. Thankfully the owner was super responsible and offered to pay the vet bill. But the incident was enough to keep me away from dog parks forever.


My deepest apologies. I shall rephrase.

Surely an intelligent person will realize that a single data point does not conclusively point to a necessary outcome. A lone example, while perhaps leaving a deep impression on the subject, cannot be considered representative of an entire collective of individuals. It does not denote a trend.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Liulfr said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure what you mean by "those people," but I am perfectly capable of reading. It was not my intention to "shoot the messenger" I was just replying to the statement. I mean, that is the point of a forum, isn't it?
> ...


That's probably the most eloquent thing I've ever seen written on a dog forum.  

Yes, I know it is ONE incident. So we will call my experience an outlier and discredit it completely. Sorry I brought it up. Carry on!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Saito said:


> 100+ years you say, huh...
> 
> https://www.cesarsway.com/about-dogs/pit-bulls/how-did-pit-bulls-get-a-bad-rap
> 
> ...


There is a website called "dogsbite.org". There, you will find an area where each of the several hundred to died by attack are individually discussed. You will see that overall, there is no pattern and you cannot type cast the situations, area of the country or criminal element to which these attacks are clustered. The statistics show the opposite. Attacks happen in family homes by family owned dogs. They happen in every type of neighborhood. The numbers do show that the deaths do cluster with the very young and older victims. It is thought that they are actually selected because of the vulnerability.

Take some time if you can and read a few dozen of the stories. They're just short paragraphs beneath the photo of the deceased individual showing where the attack occurred, if the dog(s) were known or family pets. Previous incidents etc. It may give you doubt as to your theory as to these dogs all being the product of an unhealthy environment. Bad breeding - maybe, but how does a person know until it's too late? All the research has references that you can go to in order to get more detail on any individual death.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have been going to dog parks for going on fifteen years with my German Shepherds. My dogs have NEVER once started anything. In fact, I don't believe that I have ever seen a GSD start anything in a dog park, although on rare occasion I have seen a dog of a different breed start something.
> 
> I found to have peace in a dog park, there are three simple rules:
> 
> ...


We have no breed specific rules at our little Dayton Dog Park. 

But your three "simple" rules are "still" too much for some people. There are Dog Park toys all over our Dog Park!

And as to the "well no Pits so I'm good thing??" (Not addressing "you" here) I'd say good luck to those who thing like that! 

The "Dog Park" thing never gets old! Everyone takes their usual positions!


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Saito said:


> 100+ years you say, huh...
> 
> https://www.cesarsway.com/about-dogs/pit-bulls/how-did-pit-bulls-get-a-bad-rap


I'm confused, you're disagreeing with the notion that Pitties have been bred for dog fighting for 100+ years by posting statistics about human attacks?

"Once bull baiting was outlawed in England in 1835, its promoters began looking for new means of profit. They turned to ratting and dog fighting. At this point, it seems likely that at least one and probably more strains of terrier were introduced into the breed to make it more "game" (that is, having a higher level of prey drive and aggression) as well as smaller and more agile."

About the Pit Bull: Origins and History | PitBulls


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

What does the n=1 mean?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, I'm confused?? Is this a "Dog Park" thread or a "Pit Bulls" suck thread??

It's simple for me, "Dogs" have teeth, "Dogs" can bite with those teeth. Any "Dog" I have no control of does not get close to "my dogs!"

Works for me.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> What does the n=1 mean?


 I don't know either ...but it must be bad???


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

lol

Mentioning pits is gonna get hackles raised immediately.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The only dog to defy the laws of dog behavior.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

MadLab said:


> What does the n=1 mean?


A sample of 1.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Saito said:


> 100+ years you say, huh...
> 
> https://www.cesarsway.com/about-dogs/pit-bulls/how-did-pit-bulls-get-a-bad-rap
> 
> ...


What does Cesar Milan have to do with the creation or stewardship of Pit Bulls? 


You are right about all these Pit Bull attacks that don't hit NATIONAL papers. Smells a bit rank don't it?

Family identifies 4-year-old Detroit boy killed by pit bulls | WOODTV.com

Port Huron dog mauling victim wandered into yard

Why didn't these two Pit Bull fatalities make national headlines?


Did it ever occur to you that there is a reason that Pit Bulls are the number one breed chosen for dog fighting?

"The Working Pit Bulldog 

Fighting

Fighting isn't necessarily considered as an activity or "work", but it is considered as a sport. I think it's an important topic to touch since pit bulldogs were bred for this."

The Real APBT: The Working Pit Bulldog


There has NEVER been a single case of a Pit Bull mauling fatality that had the Pit Bull's owners teeth marks on the victim. It is the breed.


All dogs breeds have been neglected and abused, they don't maul people to death due to the treatment. 


CESAR MILAN, celebrity dog trainer

"Yeah, but this is a different breed...the power that comes behind bull dog, pit bull, presa canario, the fighting breed - They have an extra boost, they can go into a zone, they don't feel the pain anymore. He is using the bulldog in him, which is way too powerful, so we have to 'make him dog' (I guess as in a "regular" dog) so we can actually create the limits.

So if you are trying to create submission in a fighting breed, it's not going to happen. They would rather die than surrender.". If you add pain, it only infuriates them..to them pain is that adrenaline rush, they are looking forward to that, they are addicted to it...

That's why they are such great fighters." Cesar goes on to say..."Especially with fighting breeds, you're going to have these explosions over and over because there's no limits in their brain."


Why didn't these 2015 Pit Bull fatalities make national news? Let me repeat, these are Pit Bull fatalities from this year ONLY.

January 7, 2015 Eugene Smith, 87-years old, was fatally attacked by his family pet Pit Bull while taking down his Christmas tree.

January 19, 2015 Declan Moss, 18-months old, was mauled to death by two family pet Pit Bull mixes. When Hernando County deputies responded to the scene, the young boy was already dead.

January 22, 2015 Malaki Mildward, 7-years old, was viciously killed by two 8 or 9-month old family pet Pit Bull mixes while playing in his yard.

February 4, 2015 Frederick Crutchfield, 63-years old, was discovered dead in the woods near his home on February 4 by Johnson County Sheriff's deputies and Coal Hill police. ***A family member admitted to the dogs being his family pet Pit Bulls.

February 22, 2015 TayLynn DeVaughn, 2-years old, was attacked and killed by a family pet Pit Bull while visiting her aunt's home.

March 8, 2015 Roy Higgenbotham Jr., 62-years old, bled to death after being attacked by his roommate's Pit Bull. *** The Pit Bull first attacked her owner, George Wallace, triggering a heart attack in him, he died at the scene, cause of death not listed.

March 14, 2015 Julia Charging Whirlwind, 49-years old, was attacked and killed by two or more dogs in the lower Swift Bear Community on the Rosebud Indian Reservation. ***The chief of the reservation confirmed the maulers were Pit Bull mixes though the official report lists unknown.

March 21, 2015 De'Trick Johnson, 36-years old, was killed by a pack of Pit Bulls belonging to John Chester Smith, the owner of C.J.'s Garage. 

April 14, 2015 Kenneth Ford, 79-years old, was brutally attacked by three Pit Bulls on March 13 and airlifted to University Medical Center (UMC) in critical condition.

April 19, 2015 Brayden Wilson, 10-weeks old, was savagely killed by his family's pet Pit Bull in the Red Bird area of Dallas. 

May 25, 2015 James Nevils III, 5-years old, was brutally attacked and killed by his cousin's Pit Bull while visiting his home. James and his 7-year old sister were outside with the dog, according to a police report. When his mother let her children and dog back into the home, the dog viciously attacked James. The Pit Bull latched onto his throat and began shaking him by his neck. The boy's mother dragged the dog by its back legs out the front door onto the lawn, hoping that neighbors would see the attack and help.

June 28, 2015 It was supposed to be a normal weekend away from the school hostel, which included playing with friends in the streets of the neighbourhood. Yet it ended in death for 13-year-old Fred Savage on Saturday afternoon, when two aggressive pet Pit Bull terriers ripped him apart in full view of other people.

June 28, 2015 Jordan Collins-Tyson, 3-years old, was killed by a Pit Bull while under the care of his babysitter. 

July 2, 2015 A Pit Bull attack Thursday morning left an 83-year-old man dead in his daughter's backyard, Pecos Police said. He was feeding his daughter's dog at her Eddy Street house, investigators said, when three pet pit bulls belonging to a neighbor got onto his property and attacked.

July 7, 2015 Joshua Strother, 6-years old, was brutally killed by a Pit Bull belonging to his neighbor. His neighbor's family adopted the male, neutered pit bull from the Asheville Humane Society (AHS) three weeks earlier. 

July 12, 2015 An elderly woman who was attacked by a Pit Bull in Shaker Heights Sunday has died, according to the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office. The victim, 71-year-old Annie L. Williams, of Cleveland, was taken to South Pointe Hospital, where she died Sunday evening.

July 17, 2015 A baby boy died of the bites he suffered in an attack by two Pit Bull terriers. The victim, identified as 21-month-old Matias Reynoso.

July 24, 2015 Friday afternoon, deputies said 68-year-old Carolyn Sue Lamp of Coweta was killed when four dogs attacked her in the Wagoner County town, just southeast of Coweta. She died on scene. Community sources said the dogs were three Pit Bulls and a Rottweiler. 

August 22, 2015 Porsche Nicole Cartee, 25-years old, was brutally killed by her family Pit Bull. The male dog, named Spike, had been with the family for 10-years. On August 22, the Pit Bull "just snapped" and began attacking Nicole's mother, according to authorities. When Nicole tried to rescue her mother, the pit bull turned on her, killing her. The dog also attacked Nicole's sister who was in the home.

August 24, 2015 Cathy Wheatcraft, 48-years old, was savagely killed by her neighbor's Pit Bull. Cathy had just gone to her mailbox when the dog viciously attacked. Neighbor Sheena Truesdale, 31, came to her aid and the pit bull attacked her too. Truesdale jumped into a car for protection, but the dog latched onto her arm and began dragging her out. When police arrived, the pit bull was still actively attacking Truesdale and Cathy was dead.

September 8, 2015 Emilio Rios, 65, was savagely killed by two Pit Bulls in North Shore, an unincorporated community in Riverside County. The dogs also attacked a woman who came to his aid.

September 22, 2015 SOUTHWEST MIAMI-DADE, Fla. (WSVN) -- An elderly woman died after she was bitten by three dogs in her home, Tuesday afternoon. According to Miami-Dade Police, the 91-year-old woman was attacked in her home. The dogs were identified as an American Bulldog (a Pit Bull derivitive), a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Labrador Mix (shelter code name for Pit Mix).

October 19, 2015 Tanner Smith would have turned 6-years-old on Tuesday, but died Sunday after he was attacked by two pit bulls. 

October 22, 2015 OKLAHOMA CITY – A metro man died following an attack by five pit bulls and now, his family wants justice. Edgar Brown, 60, spent nearly two weeks in the hospital before he died Friday from a number of complications.

November 8, 2015 ELMONT, N.Y. — A 9-year-old girl has died after being attacked by a pit bull at a home in Elmont Sunday morning. Two police officers responded to the house on Holland Avenue around 10: 30 a.m.where they observed a male pit bull attacking the young girl in the backyard.

November 16, 2015 Lisa Cittadino, 32, had called 911 stating that her 11-month-old son was attacked and killed by the family dog – a two-year-old pitbull named Diesel. 

December 2, 2015 DETROIT (AP) — A pack of pit bulls yanked a 4-year-old Detroit boy from his mother, dragged him away and mauled him to death Wednesday, police said. The boy died from his injuries after the attack in his neighborhood. Police killed three dogs and had a fourth pit bull in custody, Sgt. Cassandra Lewis said. The attack occurred while the boy was walking with his mother. The dogs crawled through a gap at the bottom of a fence and pounced. "The mother tried to fight the dogs off," Police Chief James Craig said. "What's telling in this scenario (is) the viciousness of these animals, the fact that they removed this child from the mother's grasp." A witness, Nyasha Reid, said the mother screamed, "They got my baby."


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MadLab said:


> What does the n=1 mean?


It's stat speak for a sample size of one.

No one member of a population, however defined, is statistically likely to be representative of the population as a whole.

It's human nature for a very strong example or a very recent example to be retained, and it is entirely normal to want to be guided by that. I'm not well versed in evolutionary psychology, but I would certainly imagine that the guy who said, "Well, I ran into a saber toothed tiger one time and he was not nice, I'll steer clear" probably lived longer than the guy who said, "Awww, this saber toothed tiger looks so much cuter than that last one. HERE KITTY KITTY!!"

So that kind of reasoning has its place, but it isn't necessarily indicative of a trend or of a typical case.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> The "Dog Park" thing never gets old! Everyone takes their usual positions!


:thumbup:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well, I'm confused?? Is this a "Dog Park" thread or a "Pit Bulls" suck thread??
> 
> It's simple for me, "Dogs" have teeth, "Dogs" can bite with those teeth. Any "Dog" I have no control of does not get close to "my dogs!"
> 
> Works for me.


Too much Pit Bull talk on a GSD forum.

I would appreciate if those who owned Pit Bulls would take their chat and their Pit pictures to the Pit Bull forums and leave the German Shepherd forums to those who own GSDs. I don't see owners of other breeds of dogs, or cats, repeatedly trying to talk about Labs, Pekes, Danes, Persians, etc.,, but that is my opinion.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too much Pit Bull talk on a GSD forum.
> 
> I would appreciate if those who owned Pit Bulls would take their chat and their Pit pictures to the Pit Bull forums and leave the German Shepherd forums to those who own GSDs. I don't see owners of other breeds of dogs, or cats, repeatedly trying to talk about Labs, Pekes, Danes, Persians, etc.,, but that is my opinion.


Aren't you the one who brought them up?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> Aren't you the one who brought them up?


Absolutely not. The topic was should OP take her Pit Bull and her German Shepherd to dog parks. How you derived that I brought up Pit Bulls based on this just simply makes no sense.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

To be fair, I view pit bulls as an issue and as a safety hazard.

They're an issue for me as a GSD owner. An aggressive pit bull poses a risk to my dog. As an owner who sees it as her responsibility to keep her dog safe, that means I have to be watchful for them as well as watchful over my own dog. Yes I'm careful of all unfamiliar dogs (actually, familiar ones too). But pits tend to be strong and tenacious and thus pose an unique risk to my dog and to me by extension. I'm not less worried about, say, a Lab or a toy poodle being aggressive. We all know dogs of any type can be aggressive. But _given an aggressive dog_, the breed type matters. An aggressive pit bull is way scarier to me than an aggressive pointer.

So they're a valid topic here IMO in the context of being a risk we as owners face.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> To be fair, I view pit bulls as an issue and as a safety hazard.
> 
> They're an issue for me as a GSD owner. An aggressive pit bull poses a risk to my dog. As an owner who sees it as her responsibility to keep her dog safe, that means I have to be watchful for them as well as watchful over my own dog. Yes I'm careful of all unfamiliar dogs (actually, familiar ones too). But pits tend to be strong and tenacious and thus pose an unique risk to my dog and to me by extension. I'm not less worried about, say, a Lab or a toy poodle being aggressive. We all know dogs of any type can be aggressive. But _given an aggressive dog_, the breed type matters. An aggressive pit bull is way scarier to me than an aggressive pointer.
> 
> So they're a valid topic here IMO in the context of being a risk we as owners face.


Break sticks were created for the express purpose of removing a Pit Bull from other dogs, not recommended for use on other breeds. That alone demonstrates the unique dangers of Pit Bulls with other dogs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Break sticks were created for the express purpose of removing a Pit Bull from other dogs, not recommended for use on other breeds. That alone demonstrates the unique dangers of Pit Bulls with other dogs.


I hadn't thought of that, but that's a good point.

And I'll repeat my point, because I think it bears repeating.

There's a fundamental difference in how people look at the pit bull issue. Most people I see look at it as, "But ANY dog can be aggressive!" which is very true. I've seen people attempt to shame others into not voicing reservations about pit bulls because any dog can be aggressive, therefore you are a horrible prejudiced person if you have concerns about pits. 

I look at it as, "Okay, so given an aggressive dog - what is the relative risk posed by the dog in front of me based on breed/type and size?"


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Liulfr said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't you the one who brought them up?
> ...



Because OP never mentioned pit bulls in her post, and I couldn't see the entire username on the mobile forum. I simply asked a question, no need to be haughty.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Generally the number of these dogs in your area is the problem as well as the fact that some or most of these dogs don't get the right discipline or training and supervision.

Where I come from we have lower ratio/number of these dogs and have no deaths(ever) and not many major maulings. Maybe the owners of these dogs in my country are better than in the states as well. 

I have a bullmastiff cross myself and have seen her not fight with many dogs including pit bulls. When a dog is socialised and trained it is a lot different than a dog with no structure out on the street looking for trouble.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> I hadn't thought of that, but that's a good point.
> 
> And I'll repeat my point, because I think it bears repeating.
> 
> ...


Pit Bulls are not people. It is NOT politically incorrect to prejudge them based on their genetics. Dogs are, after all, purpose bred, that is what gives us dog breeds. 

All breeds can be aggressive, but only Pit Bulls were BRED to fight and kill other dogs in a pit.

Pit Bulls are gamebred.


American Game Dog

GAMENESS DEFINED

Those involved in dog fighting consider the American pit bull the only game dog, and some even refer to the breed by the name American Game Dog. In their eyes, the term game refers to the innate desire of one dog to cross a pit in order to destroy another dog, despite pain, exhaustion or injury. The ultimate goal of those who breed fighting dogs is a "dead game" dog, meaning an animal which will, while in the heat of battle, continue to struggle toward its opponent when called upon to cross the pit while dying of heat exhaustion, in shock, with broken legs, internal injuries, crushed nasal cavities or other conditions which cause its death in the pit or within a few hours after the fight. 

Diane Jessup - Boldog Kennels

Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Liulfr said:


> Because OP never mentioned pit bulls in her post, and I couldn't see the entire username on the mobile forum. I simply asked a question, no need to be haughty.



Pot, meet kettle.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> Generally the number of these dogs in your area is the problem as well as the fact that some or most of these dogs don't get the right discipline or training and supervision.
> 
> Where I come from we have lower ratio/number of these dogs and have no deaths(ever) *and not many major maulings.* Maybe the owners of these dogs in my country are better than in the states as well.
> 
> I have a bullmastiff cross myself and have seen her not fight with many dogs including pit bulls. When a dog is socialised and trained it is a lot different than a dog with no structure out on the street looking for trouble.


One is too many in my books. Major maulings destroy lives, remove limbs, faces, the ability to work or lead a normal life, yes, one is too many.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I recently started taking a couple of mine to a local dog park for the swimming. I prefer to go when no one is there or very few people are there. I do not enter if there are any huskies or Rotts due to experiences I've had or witnessed and I don't have anything against either breed. I've seen both goldens and GSDs that would growl if other dogs got to close to their toys. These dogs are the ones to avoid like the plague. Mine are pretty focused on the ball and swimming out to get it and very rarely play with other dogs. Robyn loves playing with the pit bulls and boxers. Tannor and Brennan are find with all dogs and will walk away from a dog growling over a toy. I won't even attempt to bring Midnite, he is over the top ball crazy and it just wouldn't work. 

I don't have a problem with dog parks, but I won't stick around if I don't trust a dog or see a dog do something that I feel can cause a fight. Lots of times we are there at 6 am and gone by 7. They get a good swim in and it's very peaceful


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I bring my dogs to areas i know other people walk there dogs. I love seeing dogs interact and play and like training my dogs off leash.

We don't have dog parks here. 

Mine are working line, you are totally correct lol. *One is too much but look at the fact that nobody was ever killed in my country by a pit bull. Doesn't that statistic interest you?* I think it is interesting especially because I know there are thousands of these dogs here living with families. 

Obviously any breed will cause some issues. Dogs bite and any dog biting a person or child can cause emotional and physical damage


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I bring my dogs to areas i know other people walk there dogs. I love seeing dogs interact and play and like training my dogs off leash.
> 
> We don't have dog parks here.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, it means something to me. BSL works and your country has BSL. I know you will try to state that nobody adheres to the law, we have danced that dance before. The bottom line is I don't believe it as your country has the same results as parts of this country does where effective BSL is enacted. Once again, BSL works.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> The bottom line is I don't believe it as your country has the same results as parts of this country does where effective BSL is enacted.


BSL here is you can own any breed you want, you just need to leash and muzzle certain dogs in public. People simple don't muzzle here.

From my observations of actual fatalities relating to dog attacks in the US is it usually occurs in the home or on someone's property. 

But here people have the dogs in the home. The dogs live with families. And no major problem reported in the media as there are no fatalities of any kind of breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> BSL here is you can own any breed you want, you just need to leash and muzzle certain dogs in public. People simple don't muzzle here.
> 
> From my observations of actual fatalities relating to dog attacks in the US is it usually occurs in the home or on someone's property.
> 
> But here people have the dogs in the home. The dogs live with families. And no major problem reported in the media as there are no fatalities of any kind of breed.


BSL can take many forms, as it should conform to any specific area's needs. I would be happy to see mandatory public leashing and muzzling of Pits.

Actually, long ago, when Pits became popular as pets and started attacking with regularity, it was noted that fatalities by other breeds usually occurred on their property while Pit Bulls would leave their property to seek its victims. As Pits are becoming more popular as pets, Pit Bull maulings and fatalities are by loved Pit Bulls kept as pets. Much of this is due to the increasing frequency of Pit Bulls attacking their owners and the family children.

We all know it happens, especially with dogmen as they don't keep Pits as pets, some of them are kept outside, but, honestly, with all the Pits in my neighborhood, I don't know a single one that is not kept in the house and let out for periods of time.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

See would you agree to muzzle your GSD too. The list in Ireland includes gsds. Rotts, tosa, dogo, bullmastiff, pits, Akitta, etc.

Strangely enough a new report is out in Ireland and they are suggesting the BSL here actually increased the amount of bites reported.



> There is a theory that this legislation may make people too relaxed around breeds that are not on the restricted list, making them more likely to be bitten by "ordinary dogs" than if the restrictions were not in place.


Dog bites in Ireland and breed-specific dog control legislation

From what i can gather people here get bitten by labs and collies more than any of the restricted breeds. I think the people with restricted breeds just manage there dogs accordingly.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> See would you agree to muzzle your GSD too. The list in Ireland includes gsds. Rotts, tosa, dogo, bullmastiff, pits, Akitta, etc.
> 
> Strangely enough a new report is out in Ireland and they are suggesting the BSL here actually increased the amount of bites reported.
> 
> ...


I don't need anybody to tell me when to muzzle my dogs. I already do when I deem it in the better interest of public safety, or that of my dogs, but if the law were to mandate I muzzle my dogs in public, I really could not care less. It is not the big deal that Pit Bull pushers make it out to be.

BSL is not intended to reduce bites so the report you reference could very well be accurate but of no consequence to BSL. As you already stated, you have no Pit Bull fatalities and rare Pit Bull maulings, BSL is a smashing success in your country because BSL is all about reducing the number of maulings and fatalities.

I have no problem with a mere Lab or Collie bite, be it me or my pets. Heck, I flicked a St. Bernard off of my childhood GSD as a mere 13 year old. Now a gripping Pit Bull that won't release, that frequently removes chunks of flesh and is intent on killing me or my pet, unlike other breeds of dogs, that I have a problem with.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I have no problem with a mere Lab or Collie bite, be it me or my pets.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

There are Labs and Collies listed here causing fatalities. It happens unfortunately.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
> 
> There are Labs and Collies listed here causing fatalities. It happens unfortunately.


It happens....rarely. 

Is there something I can do to help you comprehend that one or two deaths by Labs or Collies over the DECADES is not a viable comparison for the number of Pit Bull fatalities in this year alone. Let me repost:

January 7, 2015 Eugene Smith, 87-years old, was fatally attacked by his family pet Pit Bull while taking down his Christmas tree.

January 19, 2015 Declan Moss, 18-months old, was mauled to death by two family pet Pit Bull mixes. When Hernando County deputies responded to the scene, the young boy was already dead.

January 22, 2015 Malaki Mildward, 7-years old, was viciously killed by two 8 or 9-month old family pet Pit Bull mixes while playing in his yard.

February 4, 2015 Frederick Crutchfield, 63-years old, was discovered dead in the woods near his home on February 4 by Johnson County Sheriff's deputies and Coal Hill police. ***A family member admitted to the dogs being his family pet Pit Bulls.

February 22, 2015 TayLynn DeVaughn, 2-years old, was attacked and killed by a family pet Pit Bull while visiting her aunt's home.

March 8, 2015 Roy Higgenbotham Jr., 62-years old, bled to death after being attacked by his roommate's Pit Bull. *** The Pit Bull first attacked her owner, George Wallace, triggering a heart attack in him, he died at the scene, cause of death not listed.

March 14, 2015 Julia Charging Whirlwind, 49-years old, was attacked and killed by two or more dogs in the lower Swift Bear Community on the Rosebud Indian Reservation. ***The chief of the reservation confirmed the maulers were Pit Bull mixes though the official report lists unknown.

March 21, 2015 De'Trick Johnson, 36-years old, was killed by a pack of Pit Bulls belonging to John Chester Smith, the owner of C.J.'s Garage. 

April 14, 2015 Kenneth Ford, 79-years old, was brutally attacked by three Pit Bulls on March 13 and airlifted to University Medical Center (UMC) in critical condition.

April 19, 2015 Brayden Wilson, 10-weeks old, was savagely killed by his family's pet Pit Bull in the Red Bird area of Dallas. 

May 25, 2015 James Nevils III, 5-years old, was brutally attacked and killed by his cousin's Pit Bull while visiting his home. James and his 7-year old sister were outside with the dog, according to a police report. When his mother let her children and dog back into the home, the dog viciously attacked James. The Pit Bull latched onto his throat and began shaking him by his neck. The boy's mother dragged the dog by its back legs out the front door onto the lawn, hoping that neighbors would see the attack and help.

June 28, 2015 It was supposed to be a normal weekend away from the school hostel, which included playing with friends in the streets of the neighbourhood. Yet it ended in death for 13-year-old Fred Savage on Saturday afternoon, when two aggressive pet Pit Bull terriers ripped him apart in full view of other people.

June 28, 2015 Jordan Collins-Tyson, 3-years old, was killed by a Pit Bull while under the care of his babysitter. 

July 2, 2015 A Pit Bull attack Thursday morning left an 83-year-old man dead in his daughter's backyard, Pecos Police said. He was feeding his daughter's dog at her Eddy Street house, investigators said, when three pet pit bulls belonging to a neighbor got onto his property and attacked.

July 7, 2015 Joshua Strother, 6-years old, was brutally killed by a Pit Bull belonging to his neighbor. His neighbor's family adopted the male, neutered pit bull from the Asheville Humane Society (AHS) three weeks earlier. 

July 12, 2015 An elderly woman who was attacked by a Pit Bull in Shaker Heights Sunday has died, according to the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner’s Office. The victim, 71-year-old Annie L. Williams, of Cleveland, was taken to South Pointe Hospital, where she died Sunday evening.

July 17, 2015 A baby boy died of the bites he suffered in an attack by two Pit Bull terriers. The victim, identified as 21-month-old Matias Reynoso.

July 24, 2015 Friday afternoon, deputies said 68-year-old Carolyn Sue Lamp of Coweta was killed when four dogs attacked her in the Wagoner County town, just southeast of Coweta. She died on scene. Community sources said the dogs were three Pit Bulls and a Rottweiler. 

August 22, 2015 Porsche Nicole Cartee, 25-years old, was brutally killed by her family Pit Bull. The male dog, named Spike, had been with the family for 10-years. On August 22, the Pit Bull "just snapped" and began attacking Nicole's mother, according to authorities. When Nicole tried to rescue her mother, the pit bull turned on her, killing her. The dog also attacked Nicole's sister who was in the home.

August 24, 2015 Cathy Wheatcraft, 48-years old, was savagely killed by her neighbor's Pit Bull. Cathy had just gone to her mailbox when the dog viciously attacked. Neighbor Sheena Truesdale, 31, came to her aid and the pit bull attacked her too. Truesdale jumped into a car for protection, but the dog latched onto her arm and began dragging her out. When police arrived, the pit bull was still actively attacking Truesdale and Cathy was dead.

September 8, 2015 Emilio Rios, 65, was savagely killed by two Pit Bulls in North Shore, an unincorporated community in Riverside County. The dogs also attacked a woman who came to his aid.

September 22, 2015 SOUTHWEST MIAMI-DADE, Fla. (WSVN) -- An elderly woman died after she was bitten by three dogs in her home, Tuesday afternoon. According to Miami-Dade Police, the 91-year-old woman was attacked in her home. The dogs were identified as an American Bulldog (a Pit Bull derivitive), a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a Labrador Mix (shelter code name for Pit Mix).

October 19, 2015 Tanner Smith would have turned 6-years-old on Tuesday, but died Sunday after he was attacked by two pit bulls. 

October 22, 2015 OKLAHOMA CITY – A metro man died following an attack by five pit bulls and now, his family wants justice. Edgar Brown, 60, spent nearly two weeks in the hospital before he died Friday from a number of complications.

November 8, 2015 ELMONT, N.Y. — A 9-year-old girl has died after being attacked by a pit bull at a home in Elmont Sunday morning. Two police officers responded to the house on Holland Avenue around 10: 30 a.m.where they observed a male pit bull attacking the young girl in the backyard.

November 16, 2015 Lisa Cittadino, 32, had called 911 stating that her 11-month-old son was attacked and killed by the family dog – a two-year-old pitbull named Diesel. 

December 2, 2015 DETROIT (AP) — A pack of pit bulls yanked a 4-year-old Detroit boy from his mother, dragged him away and mauled him to death Wednesday, police said. The boy died from his injuries after the attack in his neighborhood. Police killed three dogs and had a fourth pit bull in custody, Sgt. Cassandra Lewis said. The attack occurred while the boy was walking with his mother. The dogs crawled through a gap at the bottom of a fence and pounced. "The mother tried to fight the dogs off," Police Chief James Craig said. "What's telling in this scenario (is) the viciousness of these animals, the fact that they removed this child from the mother's grasp." A witness, Nyasha Reid, said the mother screamed, "They got my baby."


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Mod hat: 

STOP. RIGHT NOW. This is not a board to discuss pit bulls nor ones prejudice against. Period. It has been hashed to death on this forum and it's done right now. This board is not here to support a persons soapbox on their dislike of a certain breed. The end. The next post to do something other than respond directly to the OP will earn an official warning and possible suspension.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Liulfr said:


> Aren't you the one who brought them up?


Technically I brought them up. 

Gunther American Band Dogge = Bull Mastiff/APBT/Lab cross. Out the box he was not a fan of other dogs??? 

I had him evaluated by a Pro and he was said to be a Dominate male dog. No biggie ... no Dog Parks. Worked out fine, with time and work he got there.

The "problem" is the clueless also have such dogs and they don't care or have no idea of some "Bullies" potential for mayhem!

No big deal for those that can. Gunther would have found the concept of "snapping" amusing at best. Numbers not withstanding, the bullies that snapped?? There were signs "people" can be "stupid!" Nothing new there ...hand violence in America anyone!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, Dogwise happens to be having a sale on a lot of their dog behavior and training books. This little book just got marked down to $2 during the sale:
By Cheryl Smith
VISITING THE DOG PARK - HAVING FUN, STAYING SAFE - Dog Training and Behavior - Dogwise.com

There's a link on the publisher's site to printable tips from the author, reprinted from _Bark _magazine:
http://www.dogwise.com/video/park_tips.pdf

The book has been pretty well reviewed by serious people, including Sara Kalnajs. It seems to take an approach that preparation of the dog is an important part of dog park success, covering both pros and cons.


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## Alexp08 (Nov 23, 2015)

I live in a very small town, we have to very small dog parks about 25 mins from each other. 
In my experience if a good owner is there ill allow my dog to play with theirs. But ive ran into some bloody idiots that have no respect. So when i go, i usually pick the fenced in area that has the least amount of dogs. This time of yeat its usually only me as i live in MD and its getting cold.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Alexp08 said:


> I live in a very small town, we have to very small dog parks about 25 mins from each other.
> In my experience if a good owner is there ill allow my dog to play with theirs. But ive ran into some bloody idiots that have no respect. So when i go, i usually pick the fenced in area that has the least amount of dogs. This time of yeat its usually only me as i live in MD and its getting cold.


You'll get no "flack" from me on that approach!


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## Nova12 (Nov 19, 2015)

I love taking my dog to the Dog Park. I live in a small town so basically each time I go, there are the same dogs. We go at least twice a week and she always seems to enjoy it. She also seems to get more tired out than going on walks, runs. As others have mentioned, if you notice that your dog and someone else's just aren't getting along, it would be best to leave and maybe come back another day/later. Of course, you can never predict when a dog, of any breed, will attack or get agressive. Something could set them off at any given moment. So it is best to always keep an eye on your dog, and follow closely behind it. And of course, you know your dog and it's characteristics, so knowing when he/she is feeling uncomfortable and getting agressive would be a good sign to maybe go at a different time, when there are not as many dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nova12 said:


> I love taking my dog to the Dog Park. I live in a small town so basically each time I go, there are the same dogs. We go at least twice a week and she always seems to enjoy it. She also seems to get more tired out than going on walks, runs. As others have mentioned, if you notice that your dog and someone else's just aren't getting along, it would be best to leave and maybe come back another day/later. Of course, you can never predict when a dog, of any breed, will attack or get agressive. Something could set them off at any given moment. So it is best to always keep an eye on your dog, and follow closely behind it. And of course, you know your dog and it's characteristics, so knowing when he/she is feeling uncomfortable and getting agressive would be a good sign to maybe go at a different time, when there are not as many dogs.


Yet again a "sensible" approach! The "problem" is that "some" dare I say most?? Dog Parks are not populated with "sensible people!" Therein lies the problem.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Yet again a "sensible" approach! The "problem" is that "some" dare I say most?? Dog Parks are not populated with "sensible people!" Therein lies the problem.


That depends on where you live, I guess. Most people that I know in dog parks are very dog savvy and stay on top of their dogs.


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## VKFGSD (Jul 25, 2007)

Just a thought for the arguments to and fro re pits and their ultimate capability for aggression esp animal aggression ( dog, cat whatever).

The Brits discovered that humans actually have two kinds of sight. That which is processed thru our optic nerve and a response to motion ( hello prey drive) that is processed NOT thru the optic nerve but thru the limbic brain. Limbic= reptilian = unthinking reactive portion of the brain. If dogs as another mammal have the same system think about how and what we select for in the dogs we breed. Pits have been bred for fighting which includes very high prey (predatory) drive. Motion often is the instigator of an attack (still cat versus fleeing cat). In the GSD we also often select for high prey drive but almost always co-select for pack drive, obedience drive etc. Our two major working venues herding and schutzhund both have the same subtext - obedience in drive. You can not pass in either sport without that you will get dismissed for being out of control and in schutzhund you can go thru an entire trial and be on track to be on top of the podium when in the very last bite the dog does not out. On the third command whether he complies or refuses you are done - no score no title no podium. In Pits unfortunately there does not seem to have been much co-selection going on and then the problem becomes the fact that they have been inadvertently selecting for and only for the limbic or unthinking part of the brain. So why should we then be surprised to see it go into action?


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## VKFGSD (Jul 25, 2007)

Don't need 3 rules one will do - NO dog parks. Most reasons probably covered by the posts above but come down to this for me. 1. the vast majority of dogs there have NO training and do not even know their name never mind what a Here command is. 2. the vast majority of owners have not a clue about dog language and invariably as their dog is giving a very hard eye to another says oh he just wants to play, say hello etc etc. Ah no. See this all the time even in pet food stores etc. 3. Even if the owner had some clue re dog language it wouldn't do any good because they are too busy talking or texting or on their ipad. Spend the same amount of time training your dog or doing a dog sport and the dog will get better exercise and you will have a better relationship with him.

FYI my community just went thru a HUGE Lepto outbreak spread by... dog parks. Think about it dogs are defecating peeing and who knows what they carry in terms of parasites and disease and it's all just concentrated in one small area that is NEVER disinfected. Giardia and corona are virtually impossible to eradicate in such a situation.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

VKFGSD said:


> Just a thought for the arguments to and fro re pits and their ultimate capability for aggression esp animal aggression ( dog, cat whatever).
> 
> The Brits discovered that humans actually have two kinds of sight. That which is processed thru our optic nerve and a response to motion ( hello prey drive) that is processed NOT thru the optic nerve but thru the limbic brain. Limbic= reptilian = unthinking reactive portion of the brain. If dogs as another mammal have the same system think about how and what we select for in the dogs we breed. Pits have been bred for fighting which includes very high prey (predatory) drive. Motion often is the instigator of an attack (still cat versus fleeing cat). In the GSD we also often select for high prey drive but almost always co-select for pack drive, obedience drive etc. Our two major working venues herding and schutzhund both have the same subtext - obedience in drive. You can not pass in either sport without that you will get dismissed for being out of control and in schutzhund you can go thru an entire trial and be on track to be on top of the podium when in the very last bite the dog does not out. On the third command whether he complies or refuses you are done - no score no title no podium. In Pits unfortunately there does not seem to have been much co-selection going on and then the problem becomes the fact that they have been inadvertently selecting for and only for the limbic or unthinking part of the brain. So why should we then be surprised to see it go into action?


Well ... needless to say, you get no arguments from me.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

VKFGSD said:


> Don't need 3 rules one will do - NO dog parks. Most reasons probably covered by the posts above but come down to this for me. 1. the vast majority of dogs there have NO training and do not even know their name never mind what a Here command is. 2. the vast majority of owners have not a clue about dog language and invariably as their dog is giving a very hard eye to another says oh he just wants to play, say hello etc etc. Ah no. See this all the time even in pet food stores etc. 3. Even if the owner had some clue re dog language it wouldn't do any good because they are too busy talking or texting or on their ipad. Spend the same amount of time training your dog or doing a dog sport and the dog will get better exercise and you will have a better relationship with him.
> 
> FYI my community just went thru a HUGE Lepto outbreak spread by... dog parks. Think about it dogs are defecating peeing and who knows what they carry in terms of parasites and disease and it's all just concentrated in one small area that is NEVER disinfected. Giardia and corona are virtually impossible to eradicate in such a situation.


The diseases are definitely a risk. I acknowledge that.

The rest of it just depends on the park. I use a park populated by owners who tend to be knowledgeable and careful, with dogs who tend to be well socialized and either well trained or in the process of training. Most of them are keeping close tabs on their dogs and making sure dogs who don't seem to hit it off are separated. It's got walking trails so if another dog is not playing well, you can walk off in another direction.

We've certainly been to places that were less good, and we didn't go back. I know we are tremendously lucky to have access to a good park with good people. I have a very dog-social dog, and this is something she enjoys, but we are careful about it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> The diseases are definitely a risk. I acknowledge that.
> 
> The rest of it just depends on the park. I use a park populated by owners who tend to be knowledgeable and careful, with dogs who tend to be well socialized and either well trained or in the process of training. Most of them are keeping close tabs on their dogs and making sure dogs who don't seem to hit it off are separated. It's got walking trails so if another dog is not playing well, you can walk off in another direction.
> 
> We've certainly been to places that were less good, and we didn't go back. I know we are tremendously lucky to have access to a good park with good people. I have a very dog-social dog, and this is something she enjoys, but we are careful about it.


Is it luck? Or is it the fact that we DO go to dog parks and we have first hand experience as to what really occurs there vs those who don't use dog parks.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been to plenty of dog parks that were a mess. People, dogs, kids and even people food brought in. I also have a dog that was mauled as a pup by a Rott at a dog park. I seriously have to look at the dogs and people present before I enter, that is for everyone's safety.


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## joeinca (Mar 19, 2015)

For me I'm cautious with dog parks. I don't entirely avoid them but I don't frequent them either. I can only speak to my experiences and judgement. 

I will take my dog there early in the morning when the "regulars" are there. These are well adjusted dogs and there are no issues. She gets a good amount of social interaction (which has completely eradicated her initial leash reactivity as a pup) and a TON of exercise. There's a 110lb male doberman she loves to run around the park at full speed with..its quite a sight. Overall its been a very positive experience. I watch closely who comes in and out and if I am not comfortable I leave. Yes, I agree there is risk but I accept it to a degree as I feel the benefits are huge. I know not all dog parks are the same so to paint them all with a broad brush is not a good idea. I guess I mitigate the risk by only going a couple times a month and not every other day. 

My 2cents.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> The diseases are definitely a risk. I acknowledge that.
> 
> The rest of it just depends on the park. I use a park populated by owners who tend to be knowledgeable and careful, with dogs who tend to be well socialized and either well trained or in the process of training. Most of them are keeping close tabs on their dogs and making sure dogs who don't seem to hit it off are separated. It's got walking trails so if another dog is not playing well, you can walk off in another direction.
> 
> We've certainly been to places that were less good, and we didn't go back. I know we are tremendously lucky to have access to a good park with good people. I have a very dog-social dog, and this is something she enjoys, but we are careful about it.


That's really the ideal scenario. Would be great to have such locations (and dog owners) everywhere, but that's the exception, not the rule. We've got a similar park (in terms of area, trails, etc.) about 30min drive from me, and I used to frequent it several times per week, but unfortunately the amount of out of control dogs out there has increased and after several attacks from small-mid size dogs I've stopped going there. 

Most other dog parks around here are small, fenced-off areas with a madhouse of dogs and owners - no thanks. 

The best places to walk the dog around here are short (~2hr) local hikes and parks that are not dedicated dog parks. 

A recent favourite is a ~1.5hr route that goes over city streets, through two parks and a coffee shop. We usually do this in the late evening. Combines everything from exposure to city noise (& population), to relaxed quiet time at the coffee shop patio (still in a busy part of the city), to off-leash play in the parks. Fun for everyone involved.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is it luck? Or is it the fact that we DO go to dog parks and we have first hand experience as to what really occurs there vs those who don't use dog parks.


No, I consider that I'm really fortunate to have this. I have first hand experience at other dog parks too, and they're exactly the giant mess that other people describe when they warn against taking your dog there.

My husband's favorite was the woman who brought her three dogs and four small kids and didn't bother to keep an eye on any of them. My favorite was the boxer owner who had an intact male and kept harping on how his dog needed to get some action. I was about an inch from suggesting that perhaps he was projecting a bit.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

yuriy said:


> That's really the ideal scenario. Would be great to have such locations (and dog owners) everywhere, but that's the exception, not the rule. We've got a similar park (in terms of area, trails, etc.) about 30min drive from me, and I used to frequent it several times per week, but unfortunately the amount of out of control dogs out there has increased and after several attacks from small-mid size dogs I've stopped going there.
> 
> Most other dog parks around here are small, fenced-off areas with a madhouse of dogs and owners - no thanks.
> 
> ...


I have to be careful in my city about having my dog off leash anywhere but a dedicated off-leash area. City ordinance says the dog has to be on a line. It doesn't specify the length, but it is against the law to let her off leash. You will also get MAJOR dirty looks for having your dog on anything but a six-foot lead if there are any kids around. I've gotten some seriously nasty glares for having her under voice control on a 50' line that I was holding at the time. We weren't breaking any rules but someone didn't like it.

I do take my dog to an empty field that's mostly enclosed if I can't drive out to the park (and like yours, "our" dog park is 30 minutes away), but I make sure there aren't kids around before I let my dog out of the car, and if there are kids playing there, we skip it. She needs to "zoom" full speed but I have to be very very careful about where I let her do that unless we are in a designated dog park.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> I have to be careful in my city about having my dog off leash anywhere but a dedicated off-leash area. City ordinance says the dog has to be on a line. It doesn't specify the length, but it is against the law to let her off leash. You will also get MAJOR dirty looks for having your dog on anything but a six-foot lead if there are any kids around. I've gotten some seriously nasty glares for having her under voice control on a 50' line that I was holding at the time. We weren't breaking any rules but someone didn't like it.
> 
> I do take my dog to an empty field that's mostly enclosed if I can't drive out to the park (and like yours, "our" dog park is 30 minutes away), but I make sure there aren't kids around before I let my dog out of the car, and if there are kids playing there, we skip it. She needs to "zoom" full speed but I have to be very very careful about where I let her do that unless we are in a designated dog park.


For sure. We also can't officially have off-leash dogs in non-off-leash-dog-park areas, but it's rarely a problem. If there are other dogs or kids nearby the dog obviously instantly goes on the leash. 

I've ran into animal control officers plenty of times and they always either ask me to put the dog on a leash, or suggest I do so if we come across other people or dogs. I find they're very reasonable (at least in my neighbourhood), and most of the time give a compliment on the dog's behaviour. Several have outright said that _avoiding_ dedicated dog parks is the best idea. On the other hand, I've met people that have received tickets for having their dogs off-leash, and knowing the level of control these people have over their dogs, I'm not surprised.

At the end of the day, control over the dog and taking care to not bother/scare people goes a long way. It's easy to tell who's uncomfortable around an off-leash dog and to keep the dog away from them.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

yuriy said:


> For sure. We also can't officially have off-leash dogs in non-off-leash-dog-park areas, but it's rarely a problem. If there are other dogs or kids nearby the dog obviously instantly goes on the leash.
> 
> I've ran into animal control officers plenty of times and they always either ask me to put the dog on a leash, or suggest I do so if we come across other people or dogs. I find they're very reasonable (at least in my neighbourhood), and most of the time give a compliment on the dog's behaviour. On the other hand, I've met people that have received tickets for having their dogs off-leash, and knowing the level of control these people have over their dogs, I'm not surprised. Several have outright said that _avoiding_ dedicated dog parks is the best idea.


Yeah - it's mostly that you can't really avoid kids. We have great city parks, in fact we're nationally ranked for universal access to park space no matter what your neighborhood (which let's be honest, is highly correlated with your socioeconomic status). Obviously my dog immediately goes on a six-foot leash if kids appear, but we've had experiences where we've been playing in an open space with her on that long line, and out of nowhere a kid! With a guardian who is giving me death glares for not having my dog on a short leash! Yay! So yeah, if she needs to run? Dog park it is.

The relative utility of doing it this way would certainly change if we didn't have that good dog park available, but given that we do, it isn't typically worth it to me to take that risk of angering other people unless it's about 10 PM and I'm confident no grandparent is going to bring a four year old to play in that space.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> My husband's favorite was the woman who brought her three dogs *and four small kids and didn't bother to keep an eye on any of them*.


This is why I no longer visit a very nice off-leash area close to my home. It's a beautiful place, with trails, shade, two separate multi-acre areas for large and small breed dogs. Clean. Friendly people that introduce themselves and their dogs. The park even installed a nice fresh water pump inside the fenced area so you can water your dog. 

There is a women's play group that started going there every day with their children and dogs, and they bring their small kids into the large dog area. Toddlers, just barely walking, and some still in a stroller. Naturally they get bowled over by large fast dogs, and then the women scream and shout, the children cry, and I was terrified that one of those children was going to get injured.

One day several years ago I was tired after work (and probably grumpy, to be honest). I watched someone else's dog knock one of the children over, purely by accident as it was zooming around, and when one of the women started shrieking and waving her arms, I walked over to her and gave her a piece of my mind. I told her that her children are not in an appropriate or safe area. That our county is full of dozens of playgrounds, parks, and recreation areas specifically for children. That I _*never*_ take my large powerful dog to children's playgrounds and turn her loose, and she should do likewise by keeping her helpless children out of the dog's only playground. She started crying, all the other moms swarmed around and yelled at me for being insensitive and hating children (_what_?!?!), everyone else was attracted to the ruckus, so they all stared at me and gave my GSD dirty looks (mind you, it wasn't even my dog that did anything), and I was so disgusted I left. 

Haven't been back. To this day, I sincerely hope that they have moved their children's play group elsewhere before someone gets hurt.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> This is why I no longer visit a very nice off-leash area close to my home. It's a beautiful place, with trails, shade, two separate multi-acre areas for large and small breed dogs. Clean. Friendly people that introduce themselves and their dogs. The park even installed a nice fresh water pump inside the fenced area so you can water your dog.
> 
> There is a women's play group that started going there every day with their children and dogs, and they bring their small kids into the large dog area. Toddlers, just barely walking, and some still in a stroller. Naturally they get bowled over by large fast dogs, and then the women scream and shout, the children cry, and I was terrified that one of those children was going to get injured.
> 
> ...


Small kids absolutely do not belong in a dog park. I've seen some parents do it responsibly - the kids are a little older, like at least 8 or so, the kids know how to handle themselves around dogs - and that's great. I like meeting well mannered kids who like dogs. I do not like encountering kids who are out of control and whose parents don't keep an eye on them.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Small kids absolutely do not belong in a dog park. I've seen some parents do it responsibly - the kids are a little older, like at least 8 or so, the kids know how to handle themselves around dogs - and that's great. I like meeting well mannered kids who like dogs. I do not like encountering kids who are out of control and whose parents don't keep an eye on them.


well said. At the dog park I frequent I have seen both extremes. There is one little 5 year old girl who just loves dogs..and she is amazing with them. She is very patient, she knows how to approach them, she leaves them alone if they show any signs of wanting to be left alone. She gets out of the way if they start playing to hard. she doesn't run around (begging to be chased).

and then there was this other family...a 3 year old and a 4 year old. I went to the opposite side of the park and sat down. My GSD 11.5 month old pup likes to play close to me. He was happily playing with a couple random mix breed dogs...then the kids thought they would run over to my area; literally charging towards me. They were running to get into the tree right behind me- what my dog sees is them charging directly at me. He barked viciously at them and scared them to death. I ran and grabbed his collar and pulled him back. The parents just kept talking, and didn't do anything. the kids decided to play on the tree despite me now having to hold my dog next to me....the whole thing was so lame. I went to the other side of the park finally because I realized the parents weren't gonna do jack ****. 
Oh yeah! and this family had one little 10 pound Chihuahua...in the 25 pound or over park!! Which spent his whole time cowering under a picnic table!

I've said it before: I just want the park and most of the dogs without the owners haha


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Ryankappel said:


> well said. At the dog park I frequent I have seen both extremes. There is one little 5 year old girl who just loves dogs..and she is amazing with them. She is very patient, she knows how to approach them, she leaves them alone if they show any signs of wanting to be left alone. She gets out of the way if they start playing to hard. she doesn't run around (begging to be chased).


What I am always worried about is what about a dog that does not like children? This is the only place they probably have to go and run safely, and this child's presence strips them of that little bit.

On the other hand, I greatly appreciate people who teach their children the joys of dog ownership.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

On the subject of children, I've noticed at my local good park that signs do say no children under 12 are permitted. Age 12-17 require a parent/guardian with them.
Of course, people bring their children in with them. Some are good, some are just...a hurdle for dogs...
Kids stay with their parents, but some kids aren't exactly at a proper heel and can't move very quickly or well. Usually the owners of larger dogs have better kids.

People need to understand that some dogs are lightning quick, and a huge danger to small children walking around. I've seen a pure borzoi, whippet, and greyhound in the parks on occasion, along with a few whippet mixes. If kids are around, I leash my dog when sighthounds are around because chase is his favorite game (of course, he can't catch them, but he'll run after them again and again, since they'll stay at a place juussttt too quick for him).

But, if dogs running around knock over a child...and a parent flips out...I suppose child protective services could be called to report serious neglect. If any of you are also annoyed by neglectful parents, check if your park has a posted rules about children.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What I am always worried about is what about a dog that does not like children? This is the only place they probably have to go and run safely, and this child's presence strips them of that little bit.
> 
> On the other hand, I greatly appreciate people who teach their children the joys of dog ownership.


It's definitely a conundrum!

I'm lucky; my dog is great with kids. I've watched her interact with kids at the dog park and we're fortunate that the kids who go are generally good kids with good parents. I get to see evidence of her enjoyment of children and how well she handles herself with them. It's been positive for us and hopefully for them too.

If I had a dog who was decidedly not good with kids, I would definitely not feel that way, and I'm sure there are owners who privately hate that kids come to the park for that exact reason. I'd feel really on edge if I had a dog who was iffy with kids. I would feel like I couldn't bring the dog there to run, and it would be harder to provide a good outlet for their energy.

In general, I think it's on the dog owner, not the parent, to get that figured out, but the exception in my opinion is a dedicated DOG park. The only dogs that don't belong there are dogs who are dog-reactive; if they're good with other dogs, how good they are with little kids shouldn't matter. The kids should be the ones not allowed.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

ShepherdsAndPitbulls said:


> I use to never take my dogs to dog parks.
> But now that we moved an have an off leash dog park less then 10 minutes away, I have taken them often and they LOVE it .
> 
> I know some people who would never dare take their dogs to a dog park.
> What are your opinions ? Should I continue taking them . Or stop altogether ?


Too many issues.

Then my boy Developed Male on Male aggression with Timid Dogs. Since I'm not about to be that guy so he doesn't get to go anymore.

I will try to counter condition and give it a shot, but it would be a once a month thing probably.

We used to go daily he didn't have much issues he was attacked by a Rotti once got a little cut over his ear.

I find that its better not to go so the Dog only has you as his source of Fun so their focus is stronger.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What I am always worried about is what about a dog that does not like children? This is the only place they probably have to go and run safely, and this child's presence strips them of that little bit.
> 
> On the other hand, I greatly appreciate people who teach their children the joys of dog ownership.


 Well , yet again it's why a good rule of thumb is stay out of the Dog Park!

The stupid are everywhere and toddlers with stupid parents and their stupid untrained cur, are at Dog Parks!

The onus is on the Dog, owner, (in my view) but the law would be on the Dog's side. That's not much satisfaction for an owner who's child unfriendly dog mauls a toddler??

If one were to make a list of behaviours that the typical owner with a dog that should not be at a "Dog Park" has, I bet number one would be "NO" recall??


Pretty much down hill from there. It's just much easier to advocate to people stay out of the Dog Park.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well , yet again it's why a good rule of thumb is stay out of the Dog Park!
> 
> The stupid are everywhere and toddlers with stupid parents and their stupid untrained cur, are at Dog Parks!
> 
> ...


Not sure where you live, Chip, but this is the only chance for some of these dogs to run free. City yards can be quite small. 

If somebody were to ask me what are the top ten things a person should know about owning a GSD, two of my top items would be is that 1) they need a lot of exercise and 2) on leash exercise is not exercise. 

If the yard is too small, and they can't run at dog parks, what are these people to do?

I agree with you on stupid people, and the onus laying on the dog owner, and certainly nobody wants their dog to harm a child, but you coop up a dog, I don't care how stable, and don't give it a modicum of exercise, I believe you are asking for trouble, not to mention being cruel to the dog.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> If the yard is too small, and they can't run at dog parks, what are these people to do?


Jog and bicycle or treadmill?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've seen people bring their kids and happy meals and decide to have a picnic with strange dogs everywhere, a fight waiting to happen. I have seen this on more then one occasion and one time the family didn't even bring a dog. I've also witnessed the strollers being brought in with a baby in it, the problem? One of her dogs was protective of the stroller and growled/bared teeth any time a dog came near. My dogs love kids and are great with them. On that occasion my oldest, Misty approached the stroller and kissed the baby, she was the only dog that this other dog allowed near. I believe that is because she is a natural alpha dog, her presence alone demands respect. She doesn't growl or snarl, it's purely her presence. 

The saddest and funny at the same time experience I had was a man that brought in a smaller chihuahua mix and his two kids while I was there with Robyn(female GSD that loves small dogs) the small dog was clearly scared and there were only a few dogs, they left him alone. The owner decided to hold the dog over the water like he was going to drop or thrown him in. The dog was freaking out, terrified and thrashing around. Robyn seen this and ran full force at the guy and stood in front of him daring him to hurt that dog or throw him in. He pulled the dog back and walked away to leave, Robyn politely escorted him out(she followed him the whole way). I generally don't let her make those decision but she actually saved me from a confrontation and got the point across in a calm way.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Gotta get my boy to the park. We stay *outside* of the fenced area, great way to practice OB with tons of distraction. Dogs running, barking, fighting, people yelling at each other about which dog is being a rude bully. "Furbaby" people arguing crack me up. Ambulance sirens when a kid gets bit because he ran up and hugged the wrong dog, even though it's just a scratch. Yup, No better place to work a dog around distractions.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not sure where you live, Chip, but this is the only chance for some of these dogs to run free. City yards can be quite small.
> 
> If somebody were to ask me what are the top ten things a person should know about owning a GSD, two of my top items would be is that 1) they need a lot of exercise and 2) on leash exercise is not exercise.
> 
> ...


This is true. The vast majority of "regular people" lots in my city are rather small, so while I count on my yard as a safe enclosure for the dog while we're home (hang out, rearrange her sticks yes this is a favorite activity of hers, chew a raw bone, gaze longingly at squirrels), I don't count on it for an exercise space. Sometimes you can get in at an empty park or field, but I don't count on that. I think I've mentioned why upthread.

Leash exercise IS exercise for my girl, it's just not the only exercise I could get away with giving her. Call it necessary but not sufficient. She enjoys walks and will come home happy with those being her only exercise on a given day IF overall she's also getting a mix of mental exercise and harder physical exercise.

The dog park is nice because she can run in a long straight line or very large circle without having to make sharp turns. I try to find those spaces - be it dog park or other space - and give her those opportunities whenever possible.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This is an honest question, but how much flat out running does a GSD need?

I have a decent yard (not huge but good about 1/4 acre) and honestly they don't run flat out a whole lot. Yes some, but unlike my greyhound (off the track) it doesn't seem to be a strong desire for flat out running with the breed.

People who show in confromation *generally* condition at a trot with a treadmill or by biking with the dog, on leash usually. My trainer does run his dogs a bit its in the form of retrieving so not really because the dog wants to run, but chase, yes.

The reason I say this is because I often read about this need to run in large open spaces and I used to beleive in that too, but now I have reconsidered based on what I have learned and observed over the years. 

I'm being careful to not use absolutes here, because dogs do vary, but generally I think the need to free run in open spaces is given more priority then is needed in reality.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This is an honest question, but how much flat out running does a GSD need?
> 
> I have a decent yard (not huge but good about 1/4 acre) and honestly they don't run flat out a whole lot. Yes some, but unlike my greyhound (off the track) it doesn't seem to be a strong desire for flat out running with the breed.
> 
> ...


I only have N=1 so I can only really answer for my own dog.

It's clear that she doesn't need to run at full speed every day; if she did, I would have a bored, unsatisfied landshark on my hands because she doesn't run every day. So I think your premise holds for her.

On the other hand, she will happily get into a full zoom anytime I put her in a space big enough to accommodate it. Now will she do that the whole time? No. She goes in spurts and spends a lot of time trotting around, sniffing, etc. I would say that actually, 80% or even 90% of the time we spend at the dog park, she's in a trot rather than an all out run. But she has the opportunity to zoom if she wants to. And chase is her absolute favorite game. She will playfully approach dogs she meets and try to get them to follow until she finds one who wants to chase her. She does need that kind of running at least a couple or three times a week, I've noticed. I can sense when she's feeling a little pent up.

But again, N=1 over here, so I can only speak for that one.


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## Ryankappel (Jun 19, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This is an honest question, but how much flat out running does a GSD need?
> 
> I have a decent yard (not huge but good about 1/4 acre) and honestly they don't run flat out a whole lot. Yes some, but unlike my greyhound (off the track) it doesn't seem to be a strong desire for flat out running with the breed.
> 
> ...



Think of it this way. These GSDs need a good deal of exercise...if they aren't playing with another dog, or being trained at the moment, the last good form of exercise would be to run! what's the best way to get them to run? give them something to chase (like a ball). soo now I want to throw the ball. but my yard is super small...I can throw it 10 feet 100 times and tire him out, or go somewhere big and open and throw it 100 feet 10 times . let them run longer! and chase the ball as far as you can throw it! 

so yeah, depends what you're doing. If your dog is just gonna wrestle with another dog they don't need tons of space...but even then often they will try to play a round of chase. they need space for that.

Yeah, big dogs with high energy do need big space I would say.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> This is an honest question, but how much flat out running does a GSD need?
> 
> I have a decent yard (not huge but good about 1/4 acre) and honestly they don't run flat out a whole lot. Yes some, but unlike my greyhound (off the track) it doesn't seem to be a strong desire for flat out running with the breed.
> 
> ...


I haven't owned a working line that did not need or want to run straight on or in huge circles around me. The other night my female pup slipped out the gate in the dark when I went out and she proceeded to run as fast as she can up the street, turn around and run as fast as she can down the street, rinse and repeat over and over and over, she just needed to flat out run. The joy on her face and the rapidly wagging tail each time she went passed me showed me that this is what she needs. 

They don't run in the yard much, I have about a quarter of an acre too, it is just not big enough for flat out running, but when taken to a park or large open area, stand back. 

Another thing about running free in large open spaces, it gives a dog an opportunity to be just a dog. I think the mental benefits of them being able to do doggie things coupled with a lot of off leash exercise far exceeds the benefits of long term training when it comes to well behaved dogs in the average home.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I haven't owned a working line that did not need or want to run straight on or in huge circles around me.


Oh yeah, I should qualify, Gwen, that my dog is a show line dog (ASL/WGSL cross) and a pretty mellow one at that. I haven't owned a working line and am pretty much only around American show line dogs.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've got 3 at home now, 1 ASL in the past and have cared for several more. 

Mine all have needed exercise, that's definately true. 






Ryankappel said:


> Think of it this way. These GSDs need a good deal of exercise...if they aren't playing with another dog, or being trained at the moment, the last good form of exercise would be to run! what's the best way to get them to run? give them something to chase (like a ball). soo now I want to throw the ball. but my yard is super small...I can throw it 10 feet 100 times and tire him out, or go somewhere big and open and throw it 100 feet 10 times . let them run longer! and chase the ball as far as you can throw it!
> 
> so yeah, depends what you're doing. If your dog is just gonna wrestle with another dog they don't need tons of space...but even then often they will try to play a round of chase. they need space for that.
> 
> Yeah, big dogs with high energy do need big space I would say.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not sure where you live, Chip, but this is the only chance for some of these dogs to run free. City yards can be quite small.
> 
> If somebody were to ask me what are the top ten things a person should know about owning a GSD, two of my top items would be is that 1) they need a lot of exercise and 2) on leash exercise is not exercise.
> 
> ...


Well I'm in NV now and there is no shortage of open dog-free space here! Coyotes, Rattle Snacks and Scorpions but free roaming dogs can be avoided.  

But my "No Dog Parks" thing was formed years ago with Gunther (American Band Dawg) and my concerns were not about him but what he could do to other people's dogs!!

He could have gone happily thru life having Dog Fights every other week and Had "zero" behaviour issues! Just another day at the "Dog Park" for him ... no behaviour "issues" to be fixed there!

But that was not how I rolled so when we lived in San Jose on the weekends we would go to industrial Parks or SubWay stations are find access into the Water run off creeks.

Worked out fine. When I started to add dogs I just kept doing that go where dogs aren't. It was only many years later when I became aware that what I was doing was actually a "thing."

As long as "Dog Park" people are aware that they maybe putting there dogs at risk?? It's fine by me, I just have a thing with folks getting "Sand Bagged" as it were.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm with Chip on this, there's a risk involved with going to dog parks and it's up to each individual owner what they feel the risk/reward benefit is.

It's my opinion that some of the 'reward' side of dog parks has been blown out of proportion when compared with reality though. Therefore it makes it harder to make that risk-reward decision based on information that isn't accurate or maybe doesn't apply the same way to GSDs.

I say this as someone whose learned the hard way by bits and pieces and I started before the internet was a real 'thing' in everyday life too.  I used to be one of those who thought dogs *had* to be socialized with other dogs, that *needed* to meet and greet every stranger as though he/she was their best friend, positive only....and so on.

What I've found, over the years is a lot of the reasons for the above aren't really as important or needed as they have been made out to be. I think this can cause people to feel bad if they can't get their dog out to run frequently, unnecessarily and possibly take unnecessary risks.

I work with a lot of 'pet people' *not meant in a bad way* but they just aren't dog nerds like most GSD owners tend to be *a good thing  * and the biggest gap in their life with their dogs is not running loose in a big field but ZERO relationship with the dog. They don't interact with the dog, play with the dog, train the dog, challenge the dog mentally. They really want the dog to watch football on TV with them and then take them to the park thinking this alone will satisfy the needs of the dog. 

Again I know *the majority of people on this board are not like that*, we tend to be really into learning and training here, but it's food for thought on how some of the reasons for dog parks came into being.

Most of the dog parks are public. I'd rather my tax dollars be used for training programs and special licenses to reward people who do put the training in their dog, that they can take them more places n general. It's a model you see in some places in Europe. Dog parks, in a macro sense, have to cater to the lowest common denominator. O.k. I'm done. :wild:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm with Chip on this, there's a risk involved with going to dog parks and it's up to each individual owner what they feel the risk/reward benefit is.
> 
> It's my opinion that some of the 'reward' side of dog parks has been blown out of proportion when compared with reality though. Therefore it makes it harder to make that risk-reward decision based on information that isn't accurate or maybe doesn't apply the same way to GSDs.
> 
> ...


As a person that takes my dogs to as many places as I can, probably more than most, the dog park has proven to be the one of the best of tools I have found to create just such a dog, one that easily fits in without any ado no matter where they go. One has to bear in mind that if you are taking your dog somewhere, that most likely means dogs are permitted there, and one will most likely meet many other owners bringing their dogs to the same places. I would think that taking your dogs with one where possible and being around these other dogs is not too much different from encountering, and exposing one's dog to, the risks of a dog park without the rewards.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh boy. I'm talking about a more structured approach where by dogs would be LEGALLY allowed in more public spaces because their owners trained and passed certain training requirements, have been tested and gotten a license.

It's not about *you* and the occasional dog park goer uses a park to train, which is mostly about proofing. You can get that at a group OB class or club.

Dog parks, in of themselves, do not encourage nor reward most dog park goers to achieve better results in their training. 





MineAreWorkingline said:


> As a person that takes my dogs to as many places as I can, probably more than most, the dog park has proven to be the one of the best of tools I have found to create just such a dog, one that easily fits in without any ado no matter where they go. One has to bear in mind that if you are taking your dog somewhere, that most likely means dogs are permitted there, and one will most likely meet many other owners bringing their dogs to the same places. I would think that taking your dogs with one where possible and being around these other dogs is not too much different from encountering, and exposing one's dog to, the risks of a dog park without the rewards.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You're newer here and have missed out on some convos we've had here about how dogs are allowed to go more public places in Europe, vs the U.S. (without having to be service dogs btw). 

Convos about how fairs and festivals that used to allow dogs stopped allowing them because people couldn't handle the dogs and people who couldn't handle being around dogs either. 

Dog parks do nothing to help these trends and exclusions. That's why I and some others here have tried to share this idea that it doesn't have to be this way.

Rather then giving people a higher bar to shoot for (training and license to go more places legally) we have dog parks which even the most ardent dog park goers will tell you have problems....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You're newer here and have missed out on some convos we've had here about how dogs are allowed to go more public places in Europe, vs the U.S. (without having to be service dogs btw).
> 
> Convos about how fairs and festivals that used to allow dogs stopped allowing them because people couldn't handle the dogs and people who couldn't handle being around dogs either.
> 
> ...


Might be newer here, but no spring chicken! 

I remember well when dogs (even off leash) were everywhere as a part of every day life, and I do miss the good old days where there were so many more opportunities to take your dogs places with you.

You are right though, I have missed any and all threads about taking your dogs with you, be it here or in another country. Any links to them would be appreciated, I would like to read them.

FWIW, I have found that many places are far more accepting of a dog with the simple addition of a muzzle. I am not saying that my dogs need a muzzle, but I am saying that a muzzle coupled with a calm, well behaved dog has gotten my dogs access to many public places where dogs are not normally permitted without repurcussions.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's not about your age. 

It's territory that's been covered here that you weren't privy to.

So for me it's re-visit and re-explain a topic, but I have to remind myself you weren't here for those other discussions. 

Muzzle idea isn't bad, just wish it weren't necessary!

As for threads oiy......trying to dig them up will be tricky. One I may be able to find because I remember one our members here from Germany posted in it, but some of the others can't remember enough for concise search terms.

I'm gettin' old ya know. :laugh: 





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Might be newer here, but no spring chicken!
> 
> I remember well when dogs (even off leash) were everywhere as a part of every day life, and I do miss the good old days where there were so many more opportunities to take your dogs places with you.
> 
> ...


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> As a person that takes my dogs to as many places as I can, probably more than most, the dog park has proven to be the one of the best of tools I have found to create just such a dog, one that easily fits in without any ado no matter where they go. One has to bear in mind that if you are taking your dog somewhere, that most likely means dogs are permitted there, and one will most likely meet many other owners bringing their dogs to the same places. I would think that taking your dogs with one where possible and being around these other dogs is not too much different from encountering, and exposing one's dog to, the risks of a dog park without the rewards.


Usually I agree with you, but interestingly on this I don't.

I have a relatively calm, confident puppy who is typically mostly well mannered. Lately she's getting a little sassy, but that's probably her age (she's a year and a half old), and she's polite enough that she gets tons of compliments when I take her places.

I consider that she is well mannered because she's been taken to public places as allowed ever since she was tiny, and the expectation has always been that she be well behaved. She handles herself in parks and outside shops and in dog-friendly stores and around people in general because she's had plenty of practice in those environments and others like them, not because of dog parks. A dog park is purely a recreational and energy-burning tool, not a training/manners tool.


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