# At my wits' end with the vomiting and not eating



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Some of you may know that since the first day I got him, Hans has been vomiting on an empty stomach. 

I have tried snacks right before bed, several diet changes, eliminating yogurt, giving slippery elm, nux vomica, gosh, I can't think of a single remedy Mr. Google found for me that I haven't tried.

Lately he had been doing well on a combo of Darwin's premade and a variety of RMB, MM and organ meat. Stools were great on Darwin's, but the vomiting continued.

A few weeks ago he had a really bad episode of gulping, being agitated, drooling, licking the floor, then going outside and eating a bunch of grass, which seemed to calm him down. He never vomited the grass. It passed in his stool the next day. 

I talked to the breeder more than once, who said his dad was an empty stomach vomiter and not to worry about it, just make sure he eats something to keep the juices in check.

I took him to the vet, who suggested Pepcid, which I don't want to do because of side effects. She ruled out kidney or liver because he doesn't have any other symptoms. She also said she can't diagnose without an endoscopy, but that we should try and manage it first, because this would be such an invasive procedure and he is so young. She also said it was good that he is active, happy and growing and has a great coat-- so his isn't sick, per se.

Lately, he doesn't want to eat, and needs to be coaxed. He will sniff the food, then makes an "UGH!" face and goes away with a very sad look and posture. It looks as if although he is hungry, he knows the food will make him sick so he won't eat it until the hunger gets really bad. 

Last night, he would not eat anything, and finally had some little pieces of grilled chicken from our dinner. I seared a piece turkey breast for him (wouldn't touch it raw), and he ate that. He also ate a piece of turkey neck. He would not touch the chicken hearts that were in his bowl, nor the duck neck.

This morning, I tried to prevent the vomiting by giving him some slippery elm first thing. It happened anyway, twice. In each puddle, there was a small chunk of turkey bone from the neck he ate last night. 

I am beginning to wonder if his stomach is chronically inflamed, and the bones are scraping the insides and making it hurt. I know he needs to chew bones, for his teeth, etc, but I am wondering if I should get a grinder and feed him ground mix. 

Darwin's, sadly, might be a problem, too, because the ACV is too acid for him. He used to wolf it down, now he sniffs it and can't get away fast enough. 

Right now, I am headed for a specialty store to get some Ziwipeak and some Vital Essentials, which I used, until now, as treats. He really seems to scarf down the Vital Essentials lately and I suspect it may be absorbing the acid in his stomach. Also, at least that is nutritionally acceptable. But it is so expensive and I don't know if feeding him that, exclusively, would be a good idea. 


Ideas would be very appreciated. I'm really hoping one of you can suggest something that will fix my boy's tummy so he can be a Hoover again, as he was as a young puppy. :help:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'm sorry...I do understand because I struggled with this with Cleo, my cat. 

Rafi also is an empty-stomach vomiter. And he doesn't do well with bones so his raw food is ground. Have you tried that? I also feed him three equally-sized meals a day. I tried the snack and that did not work but the three meals did. The third thing I did was to add Honest Kitchen's Perfect Form to his first and second meals of the day and yogurt or kefir to his third meal. 

At this point you've got acid reflux build-up and that's what you'll need to address first. You may also want to try switching to ground meat. And you may temporarily have to put him onto a homemade, cooked diet until you can get things straightened out. Raw just may not be the right food at this time. 

I just read about a natural product that is good for acid build-up. Let me see if I can find it and I will post it later.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Reach out to Carmen. (carmspack) She may be able to provide some guidance in this area. I hope your boy starts feeling better soon! 


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I took him to the vet, who suggested Pepcid, which I don't want to do because of side effects.


What side effects? 
I'd try it, if it will get him to eat!
You've given him everything else under the sun which may in fact have side effects beyond what you can see, many herbal preparations can cause liver toxicity, etc.

You say ACV was too acidic, he has excess stomach acid, so if you try the pepcid for a few days and see improvement, there's your answer.

Beyond that, you could be looking at some SIBO going on, so would need to have a test for that or treat with a trial of Tylan. 

I'd also consider a snap test for pancreatitis. The symptoms of grass eating, etc. sound typical of pancreatitis.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Wouldn't SIBO show as diarrhea? His stools are perfect.Vet ruled out pancreatitis.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It would, yes, but early in the illness, quite possibly would only show nausea and occasional vomiting. 

I'm just tossing ideas out there, as you seem "at wits end" about it


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

At this point he could have a stomach ulcer or some other sort of inflammatory condition. 

Please don't discount switching to cooked food right now: raw may not be the best food for him at this moment (my animals are all raw fed so I'm not a raw hater).


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You might also look into digestive enzymes to see if that helps him. Sounds like he isn't digesting the bones easily. Something is definitely going on. Home cooked or ground may be something you have to consider.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What are the side effects of Pepcid? I had them check for me at Cornell...I use it on one of my dogs. 

I would look at feeding him what he wants to eat and does best on.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

With my GSD, Max, that had SIBO with vomiting and refusal to eat in the early stage, my vet prescribed Carafate to coat and protect his stomach tissue. Worked well.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Small side effect of anti acid is vitamin B-12. I wouldnt worry about that. Its an easy cheap thing to take care of. The side effects of constant vomit and not eating are much worse. If your dog isnt eating ask the vet to xray his lungs for AP. Coughings not always a sign

Pneumonia (Aspiration) in Dogs | petMD


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## SukiGirl (Aug 31, 2012)

Pepcid does wonders for Suki when she is in a bought of empty stomach vomiting. She, too, has done this since we got her.

As far as I know - and our veterinarian knows - there are no long term negative side effects from using Pepcid on our pups. The side effects from the continued vomiting is what you should be concerned about. And I agree with the comments on raw - if your pup isn't doing his best on it, maybe switch for awhile?

We tried RAW w/ Suki and we dealt with vomiting for days afterwards - our vet told us that some dogs just don't do as well as others on that diet.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Agreed with the pepcid. I had a chronic vomiter just like yours. Lots of empty stomach bile between meals - it was a daily ritual at times when it got real bad. When she threw up, she wouldn't eat for days. This went on for years and has really improved in the last 6 months. Brought her to the vet for tests and everything was completely normal as far as health goes.

A combo of a diet change, some meds, and supplements have really helped her. She's on kibble, so I can't really help with the whole raw feeding, but I changed her protein source and changed her to a lower protein kibble (from about 40% to 26%). That really helped.

I did have her on the pepcid for months. The vet prescribed 15 mg's once per day which really helped.

I give her these probiotics daily: Solaray, Multidophilus 12, 20 Billion, 100 Vegetarian Capsules

I also give her this mixed in with her food: Pet Nutrition Supplement | Pet Digestive Track Support | Perfect Form | The Honest Kitchen

A combo of all of this has completely turned this issue around. I know how frustrating it is dealing with this and I can tell you it's like night a day now. I can't even remember the last time she threw up bile or missed a meal.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

When my peke was sick, he won't eat raw nor meat. I had to feed other home cooked things. When he got healthy again, that's when he started craving raw meat again. I think maybe cooked food is easier for a sick dog than raw.


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## apenn0006 (Jun 22, 2012)

I wonder if they do fundoplication on dogs? I'd be worrying about what damage all this vomiting is doing to his esophagus. I think at this point the pepcid is a much better alternative to letting the acid in his vomit do more damage.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I would look at feeding him what he wants to eat and does best on.


I like this advice too. Raw might not be the best option for him and his stomach issues. A raw diet isn't doing much good if he isn't eating it.

Have you considered switching to kibble? Has he ever been on kibble?


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

apenn0006 said:


> I wonder if they do fundoplication on dogs? I'd be worrying about what damage all this vomiting is doing to his esophagus. I think at this point the pepcid is a much better alternative to letting the acid in his vomit do more damage.


 
It may be a good idea to treat him for esophagitis (LIQUID carafate) and/or Anitbiotic Responsive Gastritis (amoxicillin/metronidazole/carafate), which could be accounting for his not wanting to eat, etc.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

What is the consistency of dehydrated raw? I don't feed it so I don't know, but maybe it would be easier for him to eat. 
Wouldn't kibble be too hard on his throat if he's throwing up?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Bear GSD said:


> Wouldn't kibble be too hard on his throat if he's throwing up?


Maybe at the moment, but I meant as a long term thing to prevent these issues. 

Regardless, I do think a change of diet is needed here at the very least.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

When ever my boy is not feeling well, I feed boiled deboned chicken and rice. It seams to be very easy on his stomach.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I got thinking about this today and remembered a friend of a friend's dog started having these issues (friend kept asking for my input to help her friend). The dog was also losing a lot of weight. No diarrhea, normal poops. They finally ran the test for EPI and guess what, that was her issue. Totally surprised me since I had never heard of EPI in a dog with normal poops. So, that may be something to look into.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would be going for those "tests", to get some answers.

Vomiting with such frequency, it must not be good for him I'd stop the bones, I'd stop the raw, I'd try as one suggested, some cooked, and I would try the Pepcid AC.

I would also look into an internist and do some testing.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

When I fed raw, Aiden vomited constantly, had diarrhea, and eventually started refusing meals. I had to switch him back to kibble just to get him to eat and keep something down. He's also an empty stomach vomitor , so every time he refused a meal, he would throw up. 

Being a vet tech student, I had him tested for everything. Nothing came back as showing any medical issues, so I decided to just take him off the raw. I started with home cooked ground beef and rice, and then switched to a limited ingredient diet until he got back on track. Took a few months but he's absolutely thriving on kibble now. Maybe raw just doesn't agree with Hans?


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Zira is an empty stomach vomitor as well.

She has SIBO. She had a lot of other symptoms right out of the gate though... but, I have heard from the vet that some don't show many signs.

Even to this day, we have the SIBO under control (it'll never be gone), but she will still vomit if she misses a meal... or if I feed AM meal late.

I would do testing asap... you just never know and at least you both can get some peace of mind. The more you wait, the more damage can possibly happen... or the worse the problem can get.

Hope everything turns out ok for Hans! Sending positive thoughts!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well- ran into my holistic vet friend at market today , at end of day and briefly asked about what may be going on -- pointed to these things to think about 

helicobacter pylori 
general toxic state
liver issue
auto immune related 
stress induced 

probiotics were mentioned


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

some dogs cant handle raw. some cant handle kibble. it depends on the dog itself. if your dog is vomiting on raw then try kibble. you can always soak the kibble in warm water if you feel it will scrape his throat or stomach. one of my dogs has to eat twice a day to prevent his stomach from gurgling and him eating grass.. he gets literally a handful of kibble in the morning and the rest of his meal at night- no vomiting yellow bile, no eating grass.. he used to get pepcid too, but once i started the handful of food in the AM it stopped..

you have nothing to lose by trying kibble for a bit to see if that helps.. its very possible he is just one of those dogs who cant handle a raw diet...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

still indicates a need for digestive enzyme and probiotics


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

further to discussion I had - technically it isn't vomittus it is regurgitation . Look into Gall bladder health and foods that assist gall bladder function. Ironically the diet may be too low in good fats . Bad is no fats and bad is spoiled , rancid , heat adulterated fats common in use in kibbles. GOOD quality fats assist in keeping the gall bladder in good working function . Coconut oil is excellent for adrenals, thyroid, gall/liver , and brain .
Fish oil - found this "
Photo Credit Photos.com/AbleStock.com/Getty Images Fish oil can be found in capsules or consumed through diet. Fish oils are rich in omega-3 fatty acids, which is a polyunsaturated fatty acid. Polyunsaturated fatty acids are healthy for you and are typically found in plants, vegetables and fish. Fish oil is useful in combating triglycerides, but it's also useful for your gallbladder. Before taking supplements or change your diet, seek approval from your physician.
*Aids in Gallbladder Emptying*

The University of Maryland Medical Center reports how fish oil and other omega-3 fatty acids help reduce triglyceride levels. Your triglyceride levels are important for your gallbladder. As fish oil reduces triglycerides, it improves the emptying actions of your gallbladder. The gallbladder stores and releases bile to aid in digestion. Bile consists of fat, cholesterol, water and bile salts. Triglycerides are related to your cholesterol levels, which is what makes the connection so important.
Is Your Body Toxic? Take This Short Quiz and Find Out Now! www.TheAlternativeDaily.com 
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*Reduces Inflammation*

Omega-3 fatty acids reduce inflammation, according to the American Council on Exercise. Since fish oil contains omega-3 fatty acids, this can benefit your gallbladder while you suffer a gallbladder attack. Since fish oil naturally reduces inflammation, it can help alleviate some of the pain and symptoms associated with a gallbladder attack. The University of Maryland Medical Center recommends fish oil for gallstones and gallbladder disease. Cold-water fish such as mackerel, halibut and tuna are rich in omega-3 fatty acids


Read more: Fish Oil And The Gall Bladder | LIVESTRONG.COM

Natural complete and complex 8 compound Vitamin E - African Red Palm oil , unrefined rice bran oil , sunflower seeds, almond , pumpkin seeds , even bell peppers .

then there are foods which help the function of liver and gall bladder, very very quickly -- ginger, mint, parsley, dandelion, stinging nettle * , (garlic, coriander, thyme, oregano in small amounts) -- apple for the soothing pectin and fiber - or give unsweetened applesauce or apples whizzed into a pulp in your food processor, beets rasped - or betaine , carrot powder , definitetly greens such as wheat grass, spirulina , chlorella, barley grass , 

these are all ingredients I include in my supplements -- 

do your due diligence and check this out with your own research -- try a few , which do no harm , and have all the potential for resolving rather than covering the problem - see if it makes a change.
​


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

This would make a big difference and if it was in fact constant regurge that points at first to Mega. So the OP needs to determine if its vomit or regurge. Pretty simple to determine mega all you need is an xray of the throat. 

No Bile in a regurge its the food and saliva that never made it down to the stomach that comes back up. And if a mega dog eats grass that's coming back up real fast since the grass gets stuck in the throat. 

This doesn't sound like a regurge at all but it never hurts to figure that out. Its real easy.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Thank you for taking the time to type so many helpful thoughts and suggestions.

I have applied some and am happy to report that he is doing great. I will start a new thread with a full update as soon as I can get to a pc. Tough to type on my iPad !


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Happy to hear that Hans is doing better. I'm curious to read your update on what you've tried that you are seeing an improvement.

Our gorgeous shepherd's sure do suffer don't they. From all the stories I've read, I think people who get a healthy Shepherd without any issues are very lucky and they are in the minority.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

lzver said:


> Happy to hear that Hans is doing better. I'm curious to read your update on what you've tried that you are seeing an improvement.
> 
> Our gorgeous shepherd's sure do suffer don't they. From all the stories I've read, I think people who get a healthy Shepherd without any issues are very lucky and they are in the minority.


You are so right. You can go to the best breeder who has the best lines and they still can have an Achilles heel thing happening.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would hate to think that the breed is in such a bad state that quote I think people who get a healthy Shepherd without any issues are very lucky and they are in the minority. end quote
Do not have this as a personal experience

Vomit is wretching from the gut 
When bile is involved and it is basically yellow fluid and slimy then some sort of inflammation of the gall bladder 

grass being reguritated is because lawn grass , domesticated varieties , tend to have barbs on the outside edge of the leaf and that is irritating so out it comes -- grow one of those kitty cat greens and give that to the dog and you will see the difference


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My dogs will eat grass and not puke it up, but if their tummies hurt then they may eat grass and puke it up, but that's because they wanted something in their tummies, rather like us eating a saltine to see if that'll help?
I only say that because normally they can eat grass without puking.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I would hate to think that the breed is in such a bad state that quote I think people who get a healthy Shepherd without any issues are very lucky and they are in the minority. end quote
> Do not have this as a personal experience


In the research I have done to help our Shepherd Jake, it just seems like there are so many that have issues. Likely an over statement on my part due to the frustration we've had with Jake over the last 6 months since we got him. I honestly hope the breed isn't in that bad shape because I've grown to love the breed since getting Jake and would love to get another one down the road.


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