# Breeding first time



## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

I am sort of new to this and don't know where to find a lot of info.
My bitch is almost 2 years. I am going to breed her this time around.

How many days after she comes into heat should she be bred?

Also do I have several days or is it a one day window or something?

Do I normally leave her at the kennel the stud is at? Or does it happen right away?


Thanks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)




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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

So that's how to get 4,949 posts real fast? LOL

Thanks for the thought though. 

Same questions still apply.


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## sabledog (Mar 13, 2012)

Well, you haven't hit step one, which is having a bitch that's old enough to be bred.


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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

2 years is still too young?
I didn't see that anywhere. Where can I find that info?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Just trying to talk some sense into you. Everything you asked sounds like breeding 101. 

If you don't even know the answers to your own novice questions... what else are you disregarding?

Good luck getting your questions answered. And I hope you really take a look at that flow chart I posted.



Nobleone said:


> 2 years is still too young?
> I didn't see that anywhere. Where can I find that info?


Physically, she can be bred at 2. The OFA won't certify hips and elbows until 2 years old at the minimum.


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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Have you had her hips & elbows xrayed and evaluated by OFA?


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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

When you ask to breed your untitled, no health checks, not worked, pet dog than yeah, it's the culture here. Sorry it's not what you wanted to hear. There's enough of this type of breeding to go around. Do we really need more?

And I'm just assuming all of this about the titling, health checks, etc. Please prove me wrong and I'd be happy to apologize.

And if you've really watched this forum for a while, I'm sure you'd expect answers like this. We get these kind of questions on a weekly basis.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think most people get frustrated because they expect someone actually breeding dogs to have more knowledge and experience about the breed and about breeding practices *before* they jump into creating a litter. 

Can't answer your questions or help because, having owned GSDs since 1985, I have never actually been responsible for any pups coming into this world.

Forums are places for open discussion and not one stop answer centers where you come in, invest nothing, and expect people to take their time to answer questions. I think only some folks on this forum actively breed and even know the answers.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Seriously, I'm not trying to be rude, but breeding a dog, when you don't even know the answers to those simple questions, would be like buying a car, getting in, saying you're going to drive to the East Coast in 3 days, and then asking, "BTW--which one is the brake? The gas? How do I turn it on?"

:hammer:


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I suggest that you spend time reading and researching on this board. There are some very knowledgable breeders here. Once you have done more research and spent more time reading some of the awesome threads here you will learn who those people are. Then you can send them a private message and you'll probably get the answers you are looking for.


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

Breeding German Shepherds is a lot of work. I am not a breeder, but I know what I look for in a breeder. Your bitch needs to be at least two and have her elbows and hips x-rayed and evaluated to check for any dysplasia, at the very least. Many breeders also test for many other genetic diseases that are more common in Shepherds. She should also be titled in a sport, such as Schutzhund to prove she has the qualities that a German Shepherd was meant to have. You also need to make sure the stud has at least all of these things and is a good match for your bitch. 

I would advise to not breed your girl this time around, read as many books as you can get your hands on about breeding, talk to reputable German Shepherd breeders and find someone to mentor you. I believe that a good breeder will spend many years in the German Shepherd community and learn as much as possible, before they even think of starting to breed. Just my opinion, and again, I am not a breeder myself. There are many breeders on here that can give you advice and there are going to be even more people on here that are going to be not so nice to you, so be prepared.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Here ya go--I am going to wager most serious breeders have read the last three books (not the breeding dogs for dummies books) as well as have participated in some type of titling / training venue. [not sure why the links are wonky for the last three] 
Breeding Dogs For Dummies:Book Information - For Dummies

Amazon.com: The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History (9780876051757): Malcolm B. Willis: Books

Amazon.com: The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture (9789993280057): Max von Stephanitz: Books

http://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Book-First-Edition/dp/9995498251/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1333562190&sr=1-2


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Corrected Links:

The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History
The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture
The German Shepherd Book, First Edition


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## sabledog (Mar 13, 2012)

Two years is not too young. You said almost two years, different thing.

All breeders start somewhere. But decide what you want to produce, if you haven't already, and start working with people and breeders who produce those kinds of dogs.

You may have already done this, but I assume not, since these are questions that can be answered by those people.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Good info so far....

I would want to know family history of...
Bloat
Hip issues
Back issues as much as if not more than hips
Elbow issues big time since they carry so much weight there
Digestive issues including EPI, but also - is this a dog with a weak GI system, family history of such
Mega-E
Eye issues
Heart issues
Bleeding disorders
Skin issues/allergies
Young cancers, diabetes, etc
germanshepherd

Some of these really seem to have a connection to temperament...and would want to know about temperament as well...
"Proof" of temperament - working, sport, other?
Family history temperament wise
How does this girl do in various situations in and off the property
Any history of OCD behaviors in her/relatives
Dog aggression
Drives and thresholds
Who has evaluated her temperament
Etc, etc, etc, etc! So much in temperament that really doesn't have the ease of definition of pyoderma or allergies. 

Then, you have to find the match and not like E-Harmony  but a compliment to what you, and others, have seen with her. And go through those generations...which is why most people here realize that there are people who should be doing this and teaching others to do it, and those who need to learn it before they try.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nobleone said:


> I am sort of new to this and don't know where to find a lot of info.
> My bitch is almost 2 years. I am going to breed her this time around.
> 
> How many days after she comes into heat should she be bred?
> ...


How many days after she comes into heat should she be bred?

Can't be sure. You can do progesterone testing, and that will pin point ovulation. Time to get a book and read up on reproduction in dogs.

Also do I have several days or is it a one day window or something?
There is usually a window of a couple of days around about the time of ovulation where the bitch is fertile. Generally, breeders will breed every other day until interest wanes if they do not do progesterone testing. (Note, there is a whole lot more to this.)

Do I normally leave her at the kennel the stud is at? Or does it happen right away?
That depends on various factors. How close are you to the stud dog? What does the stud dog owner want to do. Some stud dog owners board the bitch and breed him to her and then return her. Some times you travel to the stud and help with the breeding, and return a number of times and repeat.

If you want to be a breeder you need to become very knowledgeable about reproduction in canines, and German shepherds (genetic problems, bloodlines, structure, temperament, everything else). In short you need to do a lot of reading, and it would be best to have a mentor, preferably one who breeds and is familiar with our breed. 

Be very careful with what information you get from an internet forum. There is good information here. But you have to know how to recognize it. Unfortunately, what people generally do is accept the information as factual if it is what they want to hear.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Nobleone, can you post the pedigree of your bitch and of the stud dog you are going to use?


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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

selzer,
Thank you very much for being the only one here to answer my questions. You are a very thoughtful, kind, considerate person. God Bless You!

Others have sent me private messages, helping me and warning me about the rude people here and to just ignore them.

*Now, some advice* *for the "full of yourselves", "arrogant" people* who saw fit to criticize me before even asking what my intentions were!

Before giving a bunch of unwanted, unneeded, rude advice to a novice, *learn* this:
*Ask a person what their goals are*, before wasting your typing. (Well, some of you have no lives, so typing here is all you have. That shows.)

If a person says, "well I want to start a kennel or start a GSD breeding program and would like some advice", then all this stuff would be appreciated. Yoda could teach Luke all the tricks and he can then breed the best GSDs.

*BUT!!!* If a person just wants to have *one litter* from the adorable dog that their family loves, so that they can keep one of the puppies, then all that advice is unwanted, unneeded, even rude attempts to force your ideas on someone else. *It is a person's right* by AKC rules and standards to do this. No amount of force or *Subtle Coercion* can change that fact.

One person here was worthy of recognition for their kind consideration.

The rest of you, that think you know what you are doing need to start *culling all but 5 puppies* from each litter, to prove you are at least as smart as the Germans are about breeding. 

After WW2 Americans took all the best GSDs from Germany. Because the Germans are smart they came back within a couple generations to producing the best dogs in the world. Where's the SPCA in Germany?

*Next question:*
How does a person cancel an account here? 
I am considering that after being beat up so badly. 
There doesn't seem to be any button or link for that.
This is the most rude and obnoxious forum I have ever read. 
Some people need to get out into public more and learn how to respect other people's feeling!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think, Nobleone, you are the only person who has made rude unwarranted comments about other posters. Others commented on the decsision you have made and not you as a person. That says enough. 

FWIW.....you cannot cancel your account; just don't use it. 

If you had been already reading the forum as you indicated in a post (you removed the content) you should not that there is not a lot of openness by many folks to breeding of pets.

I am not sure what to make about your culling statement........


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

We don't cancel accounts. You can always just stop posting (and brush up on your GSD history). 

Make sure all your dogs are OFA'd, and immerse yourself into the world the working dogs, training and titling your dogs in as many venues as you can.

Learn about the different lines and their different characteristics. 

You have not been beaten up, people were asking YOU honest questions, and you only got defensive. 

Good luck with your kennel.


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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I think, Nobleone, you are the only person who has made rude unwarranted comments about other posters. Others commented on the decsision you have made and not you as a person. That says enough.
> 
> FWIW.....you cannot cancel your account; just don't use it.
> 
> ...


Culling is part of the German breeding program. Of course in America that is impossible unless you go to jail.

If you read more about how they do things you'll learn this. 

They allow 5 puppies to live, and KILL the rest (cull). Most schutzhund people should know this. You weren't aware of this?

*Castlemaid*,
Maybe you didn't read my post very well. I want to have *just one litter* and stop. No kennel, no breeding program.
I want to keep one of her puppies. 
LOL


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am aware of the historical context of culling. It happened over here as well. But many things have changed in Germany as well since the early days of the breed and I think your information is off.

You might also consider the greatness of the German Breeding prgram *MAY* have had something to do with requiring confiormation evaluation, health evaluation, performance titling, and permission to breed from a breed warden and not the ramdom breeding/culling you describe...things we are all talking about.....IOW, you could breed your pet dogs but not get pink papers for them.....

.These are things which unfortunately got poluted with politics, and the SV not following its own rules and changing the rules when the Martin brothers came into the scene.....


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

What if she has 8 puppies? What are you going to do with the rest of them?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Nobleone said:


> Culling is part of the German breeding program. Of course in America that is impossible unless you go to jail.
> 
> If you read more about how they do things you'll learn this.
> 
> ...



I really really did not want to join into this topic because it's already going down the drain... 

Let me educate you and I really have to hold myself back here. 

Since when do WE GERMANS cull every litter but 5 puppies? Show me proof that it is happening RIGHT NOW, in THIS Century! 

I've been around the breed my entire life. My family has gone through the alphabet three times and a usual litter is around 5-8 pups. Even if there are more than 13 pups, do you honestly believe they are culled? 
If there are too many pups, the pups either go to a wet nurse or a wet nurse is brought in, period! 

There used to be a time where a litter couldn't be stronger than a certain number but that was decades ago and is no longer practiced.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I really hate posting these photos, because it breaks my heart every time I do. 

This is what happens when you want to breed your dog just to get a single puppy from her. THIS is what happens to those other 10. 
I believe the statistic is only one in five puppies finds a permanent home. So basically, if your bitch had 11 pups and you kept one, only two others would stay in the home you sell them to. Eight of them would end up in the shelter or on the street. 

These are all GSDs from my local shelter. Most of them were on the euthanasia list. Some didn't make it out alive. 










No, she's not snarling or growling. She stuck her nose in the chain link and it pushed her lip up. 



























Looking at this girl, you could tell she wasn't a poorly bred dog. Unfortunately, she was one who didn't come out of the shelter alive. 




































This girl wasn't from my local pound, but this could be how a dog who you brought into the world lives. 




































I have a video of this girl. She was pressing herself against the chain link, she was so desperate for human contact. I want to cry just thinking about her. 


















Looking at all these pictures, it's easy to say, "Oh, MY puppies will never end up there!" 
But you can't guarantee that. Most people that sell puppies think the same thing - but look where they end up anyway. 
As much as I hate to say it, if people buy a dog from a reputable breeder with health checks, titles, temperament testing, good pedigree, etc. and pay good money for a dog, there's less chance they'll end up at the shelter. 
That's just a general rule though, because I have seen a beautiful WL male in the shelter with SchH titled parents, health checks, etc. that the owners paid about $1,200 for turned in. They thought a working line GSD would be okay in the backyard by himself all the time, but that just wasn't the case. 

Please leave breeding up to the experts, especially if your reason for breeding is so you can have a puppy from your bitch.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Be Still & Know: A Tribute to Shelter Dogs - YouTube


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the others, when someone comes on here and asks the most basic of questions about breeding , something that should have been researched and known, well your going to get their opinions and input.

It's called RESEARCH, there are many good 'books' , articles on the net, about breeding dogs.

When one asks these questions, it looks like the person hasn't done any research. So again, members are going to throw out there the pro's, maybe mostly cons.

IF you don't like the answers, well don't post the questions. Everyone is entitled to their opinions here, as long as they aren't RUDE about it.

There are many things to consider when breeding a dog, health testing , worrying about your dog/puppies dying (ask selzer about that heartbreaking side of breeding)


I'm not saying 'don't breed your dog",,I honestly could care less, it has no impact on me.

What I usually tell people who want a puppy out of their beloved family pet, is consider "mom" isn't the only dog in the equation , if you want one like her, go back to the breeder you got her from..Less heart ache, less expense, less trouble...

I guess if you want to know how the 'germans' do things, you might want to talk to Mrs K, who is FROM germany..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I am aware of the historical context of culling. It happened over here as well. But many things have changed in Germany as well since the early days of the breed and I think your information is off.


That information is over half a century old...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sorry, I did misunderstand your post. I thought you were upset because you considered yourself a serious breeder who was going to start a kennel, and people here were not taking you seriously. 

Either way, people were bringing up some good points.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Germans do not kill any puppies over 5, and Americans will not go to jail for culling. These days, to "cull" is to remove from the gene pool, not necessarily to kill. As far as I knew the German rule only applied to registration, you don't have to KILL a puppy just because it cannot be registered, and I'm not even sure this is still the case (Sandra??). Anyway, if the dog is otherwise healthy, it can be "culled" by being sold without full registration and be spayed/neutered. If the puppy is born and will not survive, or won't survive without serious intervention, you will not going to jail for allowing nature to take its course.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Germans do not kill any puppies over 5, and Americans will not go to jail for culling. These days, to "cull" is to remove from the gene pool, not necessarily to kill. As far as I knew the German rule only applied to registration, you don't have to KILL a puppy just because it cannot be registered, and I'm not even sure this is still the case (Sandra??). Anyway, if the dog is otherwise healthy, it can be "culled" by being sold without full registration and be spayed/neutered. If the puppy is born and will not survive, or won't survive without serious intervention, you will not going to jail for allowing nature to take its course.


No, not at all. You might be able to get registry papers but these are not the same as pink or the green also known as white papers. 

pink papers you get when the dog is papered and went through the Koerung. The green/white papers you get when the dogs have the BH/AD/SchH and a show rating of at least a G and health clearance but are not gekoered. 

And then there is the registry for dogs that came out of untitled parents. You might get the registry papers but you won't be able to breed them and get pink or white papers out of it. Plus you might have to pay a fine on top of it to let it even come that far.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Thank you, Konotashi, for posting those pictures. So heartbreaking.

Excellent. Another backyard "but I only want one litter so I can have one of her puppies" breeder in the making. In 6 years one unspayed dog and her unspayed offspring can theoretically produce 67,0000 more dogs. So please, have your litter. Those of us in rescue will continue to clean up the messes that people like you make and will continue to shed our tears in private while we do it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Nobleone said:


> *Next question:*
> How does a person cancel an account here?
> I am considering that after being beat up so badly.
> There doesn't seem to be any button or link for that.


You can't cancel an account. This forum doesn't have that feature. Not coming back has the same net effect. 

You should probably stick around though. A lot can go wrong with breeding and whelping (just ask the forum member who's dog's penis was torn partway off, or the forum member who had 8 puppies, 7 of which were born backwards, or the forum member who had the mom reject all 14 of her puppies, kill 2, and then the owner spent the next several weeks bottlefeeding and cleaning 14 puppies every hour, or the forum member who's puppy got stuck and she had to drive an hour to the e-vet with her bitch struggling to birth the pup in the back of her van. . . these have all happened within the last year). You might need the advice of some of the more knowledgeable people on the forum. I'd strongly suggest apprenticing with a breeder, either of GSDs or another breed, so you have someone you can call at 3 in the morning when your bitch goes into labor and something goes wrong.


If you're going to breed, go ahead and get comfortable with the idea that puppies die with shocking regularity (seems like you lose 1 or 2 in a litter more often than not) and your female's life isn't safe. Also go ahead and set aside a veterinary emergency fund of a few thousand dollars in case you need a lifesaving emergency c-section. 

I don't breed, but I see these events unfold on this forum a lot. Come to think of it, the whelping and breeding horror stories that occur regularly on this forum and others is a big part of the reason I don't breed. Easier to let others do the work and risk _their _dog's life and health, and come home with an 8 week old pup that is exactly what _I_ wanted.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm not going to be helpful at all...

But this thread went a completely different way than I expected it to. All of the first two pages were extremely tame in comparison with what usually happens, I think a lot of the more opinionated posters stayed away (good for you guys!). Then all of the sudden the OP comes out with their post...amazing. I don't care if the person stays or not, they'll have nothing to add to my knowledge anyways. Kind of funny that the OP thinks this forum is against starting a kennel but would be all happy about just having one litter. I mean, why don't we all just have ONE litter, because we all want another puppy just like ours. Wouldn't the world be a better place?

Sorry, I know its not helpful at all, I just had to say it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Nobleone:

*Can we see the pedigree of your bitch and of the stud you are using?* 

I asked this question earlier but it must have gotten lost in the shuffle.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What irks me about threads like these are instead of pointing out measurable, quantifiable reasons why the dog should not be bred and when it would be appropriate TO breed we get pages of shelter dogs. That sort of propaganda annoys me and I don't even own a female dog.

IMO *one* intentional litter makes someone a breeder, and if you really want to be a breeder and do it right, then stick around. Of course no one is born knowing everything, but I have to say I knew the answers to the original questions without ever having bred anything in my life, so I can see why people are not so receptive to the idea of someone not knowing the most basics about breeding intentionally breeding their dog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm suspicious. The posts by the OP are so outrageously old and out of date, and the animosity so high, is anyone _sure_ this is not a troll?

Can administrators check IP addresses? 

It just seems too perfect. The stomping of feet, "I'm going to leave you RUDE people!!!"...


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> What irks me about threads like these are instead of pointing out measurable, quantifiable reasons why the dog should not be bred and when it would be appropriate TO breed we get pages of shelter dogs. That sort of propaganda annoys me and I don't even own a female dog.
> 
> IMO *one* intentional litter makes someone a breeder, and if you really want to be a breeder and do it right, then stick around. Of course no one is born knowing everything, but I have to say I knew the answers to the original questions without ever having bred anything in my life, so I can see why people are not so receptive to the idea of someone not knowing the most basics about breeding intentionally breeding their dog.


Showing what amounts to pictures of dogs who are going to or have died due to the out of control pet population is measurable and quantifiable. -4 million animals are euthanized each year. EVERY ONE of those dogs were breed by SOMEONE. 

She came on here wanting only to know when would be the best time to breed her young bitch. She was not asking any of the other super important questions that shows she was willing to learn anything about the responsible way to go about it. And since her goal is to get a puppy from THAT particular dog, I don't get the feeling that she really cares about all of the work that does into it.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> I'm suspicious. The posts by the OP are so outrageously old and out of date, and the animosity so high, is anyone _sure_ this is not a troll?
> 
> Can administrators check IP addresses?
> 
> It just seems too perfect. The stomping of feet, "I'm going to leave you RUDE people!!!"...


Exactly my thoughts from the beginning.... which is why I haven't added anything... the story has changed a bit too much... and things still aren't clear. Plus, how do you go from a somewhat decent breeder, to that?! I just can't understand that.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

RocketDog said:


> I'm suspicious. The posts by the OP are so outrageously old and out of date, and the animosity so high, is anyone _sure_ this is not a troll?
> 
> Can administrators check IP addresses?
> 
> It just seems too perfect. The stomping of feet, "I'm going to leave you RUDE people!!!"...


Am I missing something? The OP has only 7 posts, all of which are in this thread, which was started yesterday. What do you mean the posts are "outrageously old?"


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What do you mean old and out of date? The posts are from this month?

jinx Willy!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I meant information wise.  The culling part, etc.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Maybe by Old and Out of date RocketDog meant the information in the post is old and out of date, like someone looked up an article on culling puppies from the 50s and is just posting left and right to stir things up.

I also think I see a troll peeking through the bushes...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, that was kind of weird... especially the part where "Schutzhund people should know that it's still being done." while arguing people like Nancy, Lucia etc.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes. Exactly, and arguing with people that say "moderator" under their name.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks for the clarification! Now I understand. 

No - this is how people think. All of this. Not all people, but enough. Which is why I :hammer: when people tell other internet strangers not to spay or neuter without knowing the other persons knowledge level, beliefs, ability to control an intact animal, or to resist making say...$3000 off a litter of puppies...because you don't know who is on the other side of that screen...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Unfortunately I believe you, but it just seems like it's the same sentences used lately over and over. Like someone wants to "jazz" up the boards. 

You're probably right, though. UGH


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm surprised that anytime we get someone like this, and there's people that want them to stay on. I mean, they're clearly just pushing buttons, and have their mind made up about breeding. I completely understand the concept of "its a free country and I can do what I want" but then to get angry when people that really care about the subject tell you that what you're doing is wrong is just ridiculous. It's another one of those, why can't people just answer a simple question without judging me things...well of course we're going to judge you, you're doing something we don't agree with.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This thread went south on post #3. 0-ridiculous in 2.5! You could list a thousand valid reasons why to NOT breed this dog and the OP isn't going to listen.

1) Your bitch could die
2) You'll have 6-7 extra puppies and what do you do with them
3) Your bitch could die
4) You could propogate genetic health conditions through your bitch and the sire if you don't know what you are doing matching up pedigrees and end up with unhealthy puppies
5) Your bitch could die
6) Do you have a couple thousand dollars laying around in case your bitch needs emergency c-section?
7) Do you have the time to bottle feed a litter of puppies if the bitch can't or won't?
8) Can you make the commitment to take every puppy back if the new owners can't/won't take care of them so they don't end up dying in a kill shelter?
9) Your bitch could die.

Can you tell which one would stop me from ever being a breeder?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Which is why I (hammering on self) when people tell other internet strangers not to spay or neuter without knowing the other persons knowledge level, beliefs, ability to control an intact animal, or to resist making say...$3000 off a litter of puppies...because you don't know who is on the other side of that screen...


:clapping wildly:

BTW, the OP sounds just like those on craigslist who complain about flaggers who "have no lives".
What is up with that??


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I would have liked to have known if the OP was using a breeder's stud, or the dude's down the street's ole' fido.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Lilie said:


> I would have liked to have known if the OP was using a breeder's stud, or the dude's down the street's ole' fido.


I think they go together with the person who posted looking for a cheap, local stud in lower NY state.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Emoore said:


> lower NY state.


Upstate NY. Never did figure out how the border with PA is UPstate and not lower NY but that's what they say.  And it sounds like he's in Sayre, PA, not NY. The Bradford County Humane Society will be thrilled aobu tit in a few months. At least that shelter is close to me so I don't spend a day driving to eval a dog for rescue.


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## Nobleone (Apr 4, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> I'm suspicious. The posts by the OP are so outrageously old and out of date, and the animosity so high, is anyone _sure_ this is not a troll?
> 
> Can administrators check IP addresses?
> 
> It just seems too perfect. The stomping of feet, "I'm going to leave you RUDE people!!!"...


Aren't we a little paranoid RocketDog? A troll? LOL

Its amazing how far my simple question went. Look at the content at the end and all the paranoia. :wild:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Not paranoid...just seen it all before...

btw...the way to "cancel" your account is easy....just stop coming back just to play into drama unless you enjoy it..and from your post to Rocket...I'd say you do...that screams TROLL.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yup. Especially since trolls aren't "scary" or something to be "paranoid" about, they're just obvious.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Can I just say (as if this thread hasn't run amuck anyway) that I really dislike the term "troll." I just find it, I don't know, dumb. It's a fictitious thing- so how can a person be one? I would feel as dumb calling a person a troll as I would calling a person a unicorn.

"Hey <insert whoever here>, you're such a unicorn!!" <--- see how silly that sounds?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think that the OP starting flinging the insults. So be it.
There is nothing to be gained by flinging them back as insults.
Call out the behavior, not the actual person. Just my philosophy I guess...that and two cents won't buy you a cup of coffee anymore.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

jocoyn- I don't know if that comment was directed at me, but I would just say that my comment wasn't directed at anyone actually. I was making a general point, talking out loud so to speak, about the term troll- a term I was reminded of due to this thread.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Nobleone said:


> Its amazing how far my simple question went. Look at the content at the end and all the paranoia. :wild:


Not a breeder, but I'm pretty sure there are NO simple questions when it comes to breeding. When you announced you were ready to breed your not quite 2 yr old...people did ask you some simple questions though. For example....what health testing she'd had. That was a simple question which you chose to ignore. So I am not sure why you are "shocked" that people aren't hi-fiving you for wanting to add to the population of shelter dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

wildo said:


> jocoyn- I don't know if that comment was directed at me, but I would just say that my comment wasn't directed at anyone actually. I was making a general point, talking out loud so to speak, about the term troll- a term I was reminded of due to this thread.


No it was *not* directed at you - just the general "dont feed the troll" kind of stuff being said.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think Nobleone is a troll. I think they probably have a bitch that they love and they want to have a litter out of her. 

There are a dozen reasons not to breed the bitch without seeing her or her pedigree. 

We cannot attest to her character, her structure, without seeing and feeling the dog. Really we cannot on this forum make a determination on whether or not a bitch should be bred, mostly because we have to rely on information from the mouth of a biased party. Kind of like when a parent says their kid is physically and emotionally ready to start kindergarten. Yes, some of them do know. Others really do not. And it really isn't lying either.

But the OP wants to have a litter out of his bitch, not to start a kennel, not to start a breeding program, just to have a litter out of their beloved and perfect pet.

Ah, that's better, chocolate ice cream helps me think better.

I think we all forget back, way back to our first pure-bred dog. Maybe if we grew up with pure-breds, it is no big thing. But I would bet that whether they admit it or not, maybe half, maybe more of the people on this site played with the idea of breeding the dog, their fist dog from a breeder with papers and all. 

This is not a troll. It is just someone who is not averse to the idea of having puppies.

Maybe it would be helpful to have some sort of a sticky, "Before you post about wanting to breed your dog or bitch, please read" And then have some well thought out posts that address the real good reasons to not breed or answers to the very common _bad_ reasons to breed. And it would not be personal. People who read through it and decide to do it anyway, because somehow their situation is different, well ok, there will be some, but they are unlikely to start a thread, should I breed my dog, or what day should I breed her.

ETA: and when someone does come on asking about breeding their bitch, we can just direct them to the sticky. And then all these valid arguments will not be taken personally. 

How many new people with this question, come up with "you don't know me..." No, we do not, but we would say the same things to anyone who is thinking about it, being directed to a thread that anyone would be directed to, takes away the personal attack part of all of this. 

Wanting to breed your purebred dog is not a crime, and not foreign.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

wow this thread got crazy.

I typed out some comments but decided not to put them out there. 

I will say I agree with most of what was said on this thread about why you shouldn't breed her.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Unknowledgeable breeding is a heated topic, but that is no reason for ignoring common courtesy. People should be ashamed of themselves for constantly turning what could be a chance to educate someone into a feeding frenzy of insults. Fortunately there have been a few here who are willing to help educate the OP, rather than just drive him away.

Enough of this nastiness. If there are any more insults or references to someone asking questions being a troll, the posters will be getting official warnings and reminders to read the board rules.

-Admin


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I'd like to clarify my posts:

A "Troll" reference on the internet: Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is not meant as an insult, it's meant as an noun, verb or adjective describing their actions. I participate on several other forums, running and backpacking ones, and on those, the word "troll" is thrown around all the time. People will "troll" to be funny, to be mean, to be mysterious, because they got banned, because they want to ask a question without revealing their known online identity on that particular forum. Lots of people do it. Just because it's not done here as _regularly _as some forums, doesn't mean people might not do it. Certainly I can't be the ONLY member here who participates in other forums, or forums where the art of trolling is practiced (and it can be a most excellent art form!). Someone else may be sitting back, laughing their butt off in private at the commotion they're causing in their little backwater spit on the 'net. 

To appease any ruffled feathers here, my comments weren't intended to be mean, they were serious. Maybe it is a real poster, but my gut says no. To each his own, but in deference to Chris, I will refrain from posting in this thread anymore.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'm pretty sure most people understand the concept of internet trolls and won't dispute that they exist. However to automatically assume that anyone and everyone who comes on here inquiring about breeding is a troll, and accuse them of such, is inappropriate. Indeed some might be trolls. The majority are people who just don't know what all it takes to be a good breeder. Ignorance is not a sin, and it is a condition that can be fixed with a little bit of education if the people aren't driven away by nasty attitudes before there is a chance to educate them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> I'm pretty sure most people understand the concept of internet trolls and won't dispute that they exist. However to automatically assume that anyone and everyone who comes on here inquiring about breeding is a troll, and accuse them of such, is inappropriate. Indeed some might be trolls. The majority are people who just don't know what all it takes to be a good breeder. Ignorance is not a sin, and it is a condition that can be fixed with a little bit of education if the people aren't driven away by nasty attitudes before there is a chance to educate them.


Nobody was being nasty in the beginning of this topic. In fact everyone asked honest questions and actually tried to educate. 

Some people just do not want to be educated...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> I think we all forget back, way back to our first pure-bred dog. Maybe if we grew up with pure-breds, it is no big thing. But I would bet that whether they admit it or not, maybe half, maybe more of the people on this site played with the idea of breeding the dog, their fist dog from a breeder with papers and all.


This is so true! I'll admit that I still have thoughts about studding my boy. It's still a small hope at the end of the tunnel if I can get him titled through UDX. When I first got him, there were no plans to title, but I knew studding was a possibility since he is a beautiful pure bred. I got my education through my GSD club and this forum, and really entering the world of dogs. You see the problems with unwanted dogs and shelters and rescues only if you want to see them. If you don't want to believe they exist, you don't have to, and you won't ever understand that the likely hood of your puppies ending up there is extremely high.

In a perfect world, if I could guarantee 1 puppy out of a litter, I'd do it. I'd find a great female and ask them to breed to my dog. But when I start to think that there would be 5-10 other puppies, I don't want to risk any of them ever ending up in a shelter and then most likely PTS.

Before you see the problems, breeding is extremely selfish. You get a dog for yourself, you make a couple thousand dollars (if all goes well), and yes, you do make that money since you have no titling/cert costs. I don't care enough about $3000 to justify risking the lives of 10 dogs, but some people just don't care, or they believe those dogs will be taken care of no matter what. Sadly, the less you spend on a dog, the faster you'll get rid of it at the first sign of any issue.

I can see how it would've been hard to get educated about this issue on just this forum alone, especially when the first thing you ask is "how do I do it?" But in the end, we're just people sitting behind a computer screen, that the OP and others like the OP will never see. They shouldn't care at all what we think, and even if they go against what the majority of the forum thinks, no one will ever be the wiser.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

When you get people who don't know what they're doing:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...g-breeder/179560-question-about-studding.html

ONE WEEK LATER:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/180053-what-do-after-attack.html

Not that this is the most common example, but it's a testament to doing one's homework and being careful what dogs are bred.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> Maybe it would be helpful to have some sort of a sticky, "Before you post about wanting to breed your dog or bitch, please read" And then have some well thought out posts that address the real good reasons to not breed or answers to the very common _bad_ reasons to breed. And it would not be personal. People who read through it and decide to do it anyway, because somehow their situation is different, well ok, there will be some, but they are unlikely to start a thread, should I breed my dog, or what day should I breed her.
> 
> *when someone does come on asking about breeding their bitch, we can just direct them to the sticky. And then all these valid arguments will not be taken personally*.


I agree with this!! Point them to the sticky with the flowchart and hope they carefully decide what is best for their dog and the pups the dog may produce.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The flow chart is ok, but it only answers one set of reasons -- that is, is the dog breedworthy. But a dog can be breedworthy and still should not be bred by their owners. For example, it does not address the arguments about problems with whelping, losing pups, losing the dam. It does not discuss the time and space requirements of raising a litter. It does not discuss the problems with finding good homes and ensuring your pups do not end up in shelters, rescues. 

If people could keep it short and simple, and make an answer to each of the main reasons people want to breed their bitch, I just want to breed her one time, I want to get a pup out of her, etc. And people could make a short simple post for each of the main reasons not to breed their dog. If people get through that, and still want to breed their dog, at least they are not going into it totally blind.

Then maybe the forum worthies will not be accused of being know-it-alls, or up on their high horse every time anyone gets the brainstorm about having puppies out of Fritz and Frieda.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I meant have the flowchart included with the sticky that you'll be writing up, Selzer! :thumbup:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think the biggest problem with stickies is that everybody thinks their dog and their situation is special.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, but if people just send people to the sticky, they don't have to get personal and repeat themselves. 

I am all about writing up a post on things like what may go wrong and some of the other reasons. But other people would be better at addressing things like the dogs in shelters, like the post here that showed photos of purebred dogs some of which did not make it out of the shelter. 

It would be neat to do it as a writing contest. A thread called, if you could use just 1 reason to convince someone not to breed their dog, preferably in 200 words or less, post your answer. And then take the thread and edit it to leave in the best (well written/concise) arguments that cover everything, and rename it "Before you post about breeding your dog, please read."

One person could post more than one argument, but with separate posts. I mean if you think about it, you can post, 

"Your bitch may die." 

and that would be a whole post. 

But another person might post, "I decided to breed my bitch two years ago. I did all the preliminary steps, found an excellent stud, everyone in great health, excellent diet. And when it came time for our (name of dam) to have her puppies, no puppies. We waited, when she did go into labor it was odd, so we rushed her to the vet. We got her there ok, but then it went down hill from there. Unfortunately we lost her in an emergency c-section and the litter. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go through that." 

While I haven't lost a bitch yet, I have been through an emergency C-section. And I know someone on this site (I think) had lost her dam, though I am not sure if it was during a c-section. I don't think I could write about it if it was me, over and over and over again. But if it was in a sticky, and it wasn't I know someone who, but I lost my beloved Hannah or Heidi or whatever the name of the girl was. I think it pulls more weight. 

When the post is edited and made into a sticky the "Your bitch may die and all the many renditions of that statement might be edited out, leaving just the post from someone who experienced it.

And other short, clear posts that without being harsh or judgemental explain why breeding dogs is not always the best idea.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nobleone sounds like you have chosen a male who is standing at stud at a kennel. (Do I normally leave her at the kennel the stud is at? ) 
Can I assume then that this kennel has some requirements or standards. They should tell you when to bring the female to the male . 

share the pedigree of your female and show us some stud options -- so if you do breed at least it will be a better litter.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

As awesome as the idea of having a thread on what could go wrong during breeding is, a lot of people don't want to stop and read it. They want to get on and ask questions about THEIR dog/bitch. I know many potential BYBs wouldn't bother to read 'what could go wrong,' because of the mindset - "Oh, nothing will go wrong with MY dog's pregnancy/breeding." (Penis getting ripped off...!) 
I do agree that we should have one, but I don't expect it to put a stop to these kind of threads/questions. IMO (and I'd like to be proved wrong), only people who truly cared and were interested in all aspects of breeding and educating themselves would stop to read it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think the best place to ask and learn about breeding your own dog is from the breeder you got said dog from, or else go hang around and meet breeders at dog shows.

I have been considering getting into the show/breeding world (with Dachshunds, not GSDs) but one cannot do it from their computer desk  You have to get out there to the shows and fields where the dogs are worked and shown.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Konotashi said:


> As awesome as the idea of having a thread on what could go wrong during breeding is, a lot of people don't want to stop and read it. They want to get on and ask questions about THEIR dog/bitch. I know many potential BYBs wouldn't bother to read 'what could go wrong,' because of the mindset - "Oh, nothing will go wrong with MY dog's pregnancy/breeding." (Penis getting ripped off...!)
> I do agree that we should have one, but I don't expect it to put a stop to these kind of threads/questions. IMO (and I'd like to be proved wrong), only people who truly cared and were interested in all aspects of breeding and educating themselves would stop to read it.


Ok, fine, and it is so much more fun to tick off a newbie who gets the idea of breeding his dog. Kind of a good welcome hazing. Those that take their ball and go home, aren't worthy of us, the ones in the know.

As for the penis being ripped off. That has to be a VERY uncommon occurrence. It is amazing that wolves, and dogs, and elephants, and cougars, and lions, and every other critter under the sun has survived, as most of them should have had their penises ripped off because a knowledgeable human being wasn't facilitating the breeding.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I've always been curious why people feel the need to breed their dogs in order to get another puppy "just like them because they're so wonderful" when hypothetically, you could just go back to the same breeder you got your first wonderful dog from and get another wonderful dog from the same lines. My boyfriends family gave me the same reasoning when they decided to breed their Golden female a couple of years ago. They got her from a good breeder that lived in the same city as them and had about a litter a year that they could have easily gotten another puppy from. Am I missing something here??


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

sashadog said:


> I've always been curious why people feel the need to breed their dogs in order to get another puppy "just like them because they're so wonderful" when hypothetically, you could just go back to the same breeder you got your first wonderful dog from and get another wonderful dog from the same lines. My boyfriends family gave me the same reasoning when they decided to breed their Golden female a couple of years ago. They got her from a good breeder that lived in the same city as them and had about a litter a year that they could have easily gotten another puppy from. Am I missing something here??


Because they *think* they are going to get a clone of the dog they have now. The chances of obtaining such a *clone* from a litter of puppies, is slim to none, IMHO. It has to do with genetics, yes, but now you're adding in the genetics of the other parent. That drastically reduces your chances of getting an exact carbon copy of what you have now.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, Chance , they want a dog to be a replica , in spirit and body of the dog they have . Chances of that are slim to none - and slim left the room , especially from a random scattered pedigree .


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Well,heck you can always get your dog cloned, seems that would be the best chance to get the "replica"of what you have now.


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