# Pup lethargic and vomiting



## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

I will be taking Quax (12wks) back to the vet in the morning, but as I will be worrying all night, I would like to see what others have experienced with Giardia and Coccidia. Perhaps we may be dealing with an additional issue? We just started our 2nd round if meds as the first did not knock out either issue. First visit we were prescribed Metronidazole 250 mg....1/2 tablet twice daily (7 days) for the Giardia. Albon liquid for the Coccidia....10cc first day and 5cc per day for six more days. On 2nd visit which was yesterday, meds and dosage is the same for the Giardia and this time 10cc of the Albon each day for the Coccidia. Today seems to be the first day he has really seemed to feel bad.....lethargic, slept more than usual and when awake he would tire easily. Ate breakfast fine, did not show much enthusiasm for lunch but was able to get him to finish his meal. Would not eat any dinner. He did have a bowel movement before breakfast and one after lunch....they were sloppy, but not quite diarrhea. This evening he vomited what looks to be everything he ate today or at least close to it....including the turkey dog bites and turkey lunch meat I used trying to get his evening pill in him. Does this sound typical of the Giardia and/or Coccidia....possible side effects of the meds especially as the Albon was increased. What is most concerning me is that it does not appear he digested much if anything he ate today which was mostly from this morning and mid day. I read about how scary blockages etc are but don't know enough about the symptoms to know if I should be treating this as more of an emergency and not wait until the morning. Closest over night emergency vet is a little over an hour away and I also have a small doggie currently restricted to a crate only except to potty while he is recovering from emergency back surgery.....me leaving at night like this will stress him, but will do if consensus is I have an emergency situation. Puppy is sleeping now, no whimpering and when I carried him into bedroom to his crate, he wagged his tail as I passed the kitty and our other two doggies. Thoughts?

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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

You described exactly how Woolf acted when he had a blockage. Lethargic, vomiting undigested food. Finally able to pass through - barely - another 30 minutes and it would have been surgery. It is a tough call whether to go now or wait till morning - things can go downhill quickly depending on how long it has been there and where the blockage is.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just found this for Albion: Other side effects that may occur include KCS or dry eye, anemia, fever, loss of appetite, vomiting or diarrhea, joint inflammation, kidney damage, and skin rash. Stop the medication and contact your veterinarian if any of the above symptoms occur. Albon Suspension: Antibiotic for Dogs and Cats - 1800PetMeds

I would go the e-vet now. Can you take your small dog with you? It sounds like he needs fluids at the very least. Puppies can go downhill very quickly and your boy sounds quite sick. Hopefully it's just a reaction to the meds...


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Calling vet now....thank you for responses.

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

I was able to get a prompt call back from our regular vet and he had me meet him at the clinic. Physical exam did not reveal any blockage. We moved to X-rays which showed a few gas areas but again, no actual blockage. He did state the gas areas are a concern as they could progress. I wanted to check for Parvo which was suggested by another forum member via pm. My vet agreed as he had it as a question in his mind as well....thankfully it is negative. Plan of action for now is to withhold any further food and water over night and feed bland food in the morning, etc....if he is able to keep it down through the day, return on Saturday for follow up exam to be sure he is still not developing a potential blockage. Vet feels for this visit....physical exam should be enough and probably won't require further X-rays. I believe I would prefer to have more X-rays though to make sure no blockages have begun to form?? Should Quax not eat anything or vomit again, then I am to take him back in promptly. He also gave him an injection of Cerenia for nausea. Thank you all again so much for the responses and advice....very much appreciated and I welcome any further thoughts.

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Blockages don't form, they are caused by something being ingested that can't properly pass through the digestive system. Your vet was concerned with gas because excessive gas can cause bloat and bloat can cause torsion. Luckily torsion is extremely rare in tiny pups. 

You can give Gas X to relieve the gas or activated charcoal. I would choose the latter because my money is on your pup having a reaction to the meds. I think the vet prescribed too much for him to handle. 

I hope he feels better tomorrow!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Something to watch out for after parasites is Intussusception of the Intestines in Dogs . Just keep that tucked away if things don't improve.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Blockages don't form, they are caused by something being ingested that can't properly pass through the digestive system. Your vet was concerned with gas because excessive gas can cause bloat and bloat can cause torsion. Luckily torsion is extremely rare in tiny pups.
> 
> You can give Gas X to relieve the gas or activated charcoal. I would choose the latter because my money is on your pup having a reaction to the meds. I think the vet prescribed too much for him to handle.
> 
> I hope he feels better tomorrow!


I do remember him saying torsion as a possibility last night....

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Something to watch out for after parasites is Intussusception of the Intestines in Dogs . Just keep that tucked away if things don't improve.


This was mentioned last night as a possibility as well. Poor baby looks really thin this morning. He is alert and just had a few sips of water which last night he wouldn't even drink. Thank you all again for your replies and thoughts. Didn't do a blood panel last night....thinking when I take him back, we will do this to rule any other possibilities out. Any thoughts on this? Also, should we check to make sure our brand of food has not had any recent recalls....we feed Blue?

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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I hope puppy is doing well. If your Gavin trouble getting rid of the giardia, try kocci free. Myself and several other members here have had great luck with it. It cured my dogs chronic giardia in 10 days. And she was very sick. Good luck. 


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Capone22 said:


> I hope puppy is doing well. If your Gavin trouble getting rid of the giardia, try kocci free. Myself and several other members here have had great luck with it. It cured my dogs chronic giardia in 10 days. And she was very sick. Good luck.
> 
> Yes...I saw where y'all had posted about the Kocci. I actually saved the link so I could try if this latest round of meds didn't work. Is the only place you can get the Kocci online? Thank you!
> 
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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Oops, thought I had mentioned Kocci Free. That's my go to for giardia and coccidia. 

Are you taking him in to the vet today for fluids? I would be concerned about hydration. Is he eating yet?


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Oops, thought I had mentioned Kocci Free. That's my go to for giardia and coccidia.
> 
> Are you taking him in to the vet today for fluids? I would be concerned about hydration. Is he eating yet?


He is drinking some now on his own and showing more interest in water overall. Also showing more interest in "land sharking" again, too!  He did eat approx one plain scrambled egg this morning....offered a little more but that was as much as he was interested in. About to make him another one and see how it goes. He has not vomited again and he had a BM about 2 hours ago, albeit a sloppy one. Thank you for checking on us....I believe this is all positive signs? If he eats this next egg and does not vomit.. .thinking I will take back to vet for peace if mind exam before they close at noon for the weekend. Or possibly before 5pm today....not positive which is best? Really concerned about possibility of intussusception??

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Meant to say in previous post "before they close at noon tomorrow for the weekend".

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

THose are definitely good signs, eating and drinking. Small meals are good. 

Do you know how to check his hydration? If he is at all dehydrated I would take him in for fluids. It's not a big deal at all--I used to do it myself for my elderly cat. 

Hopefully this was a reaction to the meds and as they clear his system he will progressively feel better. Intussusception is pretty rare and I think very painful so if he is perking up that would seem less likely.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> THose are definitely good signs, eating and drinking. Small meals are good.
> 
> Do you know how to check his hydration? If he is at all dehydrated I would take him in for fluids. It's not a big deal at all--I used to do it myself for my elderly cat.
> 
> Hopefully this was a reaction to the meds and as they clear his system he will progressively feel better. Intussusception is pretty rare and I think very painful so if he is perking up that would seem less likely.


Oh that makes me feel better knowing that about the intussusception....he is perking up even more after my last post. He is back in FULL land shark mode, annoying the kitty and asking for dinner. Keeping meals bland and small. I have loosely & gently pinched/pulled on his skin to make sure it snaps right back. He is drinking water more today and urinates each time I take him out frequently. I have also been watching his gums which I will say are not pink, but not gray either. More of a purple..ish gray. Called vet about 45 minutes ago to describe in case I needed to get up there for fluids before they closed. He felt we are good after I updated him on everything for the day....he thinks gums are fine and believes Quax has a darker pigmentation than some others. He has not vomited anything up today as well, thank goodness....so hoping that means the water he is drinking is keeping him hydrated?

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How is he feeling today?


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> How is he feeling today?


My apologies for such a delayed response....in fact I only just now saw as I logged on to give an update as well as get some advice on how much Pedialyte is appropriate to give Quax. He is approx 21 lbs and 12 weeks old yesterday. He REALLY perked up yesterday afternoon, last night and this morning. Back to himself and VERY rambunctious. However, as I M a worrier I took him back to vet before they closed at noon today to make sure they agreed he was better. Specifically I wanted to make sure they felt he was hydrated....Quax's gums seem to have a darker pigmentation than other doggies so I didn't trust myself to know for sure. Vet said tongue was good color, skin snapped back when gently pulled and overall agreed he seemed fine. Drove home and when I went to get him out of crate, I noticed he had vomited....I never even heard a peep out of him. Put him on the grass and he promptly had diarrhea. Also back to being a little lethargic but not terribly so. Called vet answering service immediately as they were now closed....vet called right back and said watch him and call back if it persists or is not eating, drinking, vomits more, etc. His vomit this time had very little food.....just a few particles and a little bit if grass. Possible car sick as he is still recovering?? His appetite is definitely back and will eat right now if I fixed him something but trying to keep is meals small right now as well as bland....boiled chicken and rice or plain scrambled eggs. Went to store and got Pedialyte, pure canned pumpkin and yogurt to incorporate into his meals tomorrow. My question is how much Pedialyte is safe for him...I have given him 3.5cc twice in the last hour so far?? Thank you so much for checking on us!!

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sorry about the vomiting and diarrhea.  I hope that was just from the car ride. 

Isn't pedialyte for hydration? (I don't know the amount because I've never used it). 

What about chicken soup (without salt)? When mine are sick I usually make a kind of stew with overcooked grain (sometimes oatmeal), sweet potatoes, and chicken breast or thighs. I give them the extra water with their meals.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How did he do last night?


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> How did he do last night?


He did good, thank you! No more vomiting since the ride home from vets. Definitely still has appetite and I am alternating water and Pedialyte (to help with hydration)...he will drink out of a bowl, but the Goofball prefers me to baby him and give through the syringe. I think it's a game to him. I mixed a little yogurt in with his breakfast as the only probiotic my vet had on hand was for cows. He told me yogurt would help have the same effect. Had a poopy last night...sloppy but not diarrhea. Frustrated as I can't get a BM out of him so far today, but I will say I am always frustrated trying to get regular BMs from him since day one. There is no set regular BMs....not like I read about others that are precisely at certain times in mornings, evenings, two hours after they eat, etc. This makes part of the house training difficult....but doing really good with the tinkling part of this. Going to mix the pumpkin with his mid day meal hoping this will help. He is alert & playful, but is currently napping. Thank you again for staying in touch. Do you have any additional thoughts? 

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

digestive enzymes are just as important as probiotics .


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad that he had a good night! Is there a health food store near you? That's where I get probiotics (in the refrigerated section). Yogurt is not the same because a tablespoon of yogurt has very little probiotics in it. I agree with Carmen that digestive enzymes are also important, especially because his digestive system is going to need repairing after all this. She makes some supplements herself--you should pm her and ask about them. 

Also, you can't get enough water in him through syringing so either he's got to drink or you need to give him liquids in his meals. I think pedialyte is a very short term solution.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Glad that he had a good night! Is there a health food store near you? That's where I get probiotics (in the refrigerated section). Yogurt is not the same because a tablespoon of yogurt has very little probiotics in it. I agree with Carmen that digestive enzymes are also important, especially because his digestive system is going to need repairing after all this. She makes some supplements herself--you should pm her and ask about them.
> 
> Also, you can't get enough water in him through syringing so either he's got to drink or you need to give him liquids in his meals. I think pedialyte is a very short term solution.


Forgive me as I'm new to probiotics and the issues I'm having....trying so hard to get this right and make sure I'm taking proper care of Quax. Carmspack, the digestive enzymes, is that the probiotics?? We live in a rural area and I can't remember seeing a health food store....I also haven't looked for one so there may be. There is a PetSense in town if y'all think they carry? I thought I had read as long as you get a yogurt that has active/live cultures that this would help replace the good bacteria....isn't that what probiotics do? Ugh I'm getting confused....I truly appreciate y'all trying to help educate me in all this. We are so proactive when it comes to our fur babies and react at first symptoms with medical care....I just want to make sure I am getting it right for Quax. He is my first experience with a GS puppy....we very recently lost our previous GSD, Schultz to DM, but he was a rescue and an adult. 

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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

You can make your own electrolyte solution... (sub for pedialyte) 8 tsp sugar, 1 tsp salt and 5 cups of water. They will readily drink this on their own.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

mnm said:


> You can make your own electrolyte solution... (sub for pedialyte) 8 tsp sugar, 1 tsp salt and 5 cups of water. They will readily drink this on their own.


Thank you mnm....I appreciate your comment. I'm actually not having a problem getting him to drink either water or the Pedialyte...only using syringe as I don't know how much Pedialyte to give safely so the syringe helps me keep an eye on how much I'm giving him for sure and hopefully not overdoing it. He just drank more water on his own....really the only reason I have been supplementing more water with the syringe is he seems to like me doing this. Guess I'm just babying him as he doesn't feel 100% and the Mommy is coming out in me to spoil him. 

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Quax still seems to be doing good but I do think he is not quite a 100%, but he is playful, drinking & eating....in fact would eat more if I would give him all he wants. Did finally get a poopy from him yesterday afternoon and this morning. They were not as big as I would have thought but they are getting more firm since I added pumpkin to his food or possibly the rice is helping, too. He looks so skinny after all this.....going to slowly begin adding kibble back in his meals starting today with his lunch.

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Recently a great deal of attention has been given to probiotics , which are very important to the immune system. The immune system starts in a healthy gut.
"You" actually have more , many times more, bacterial cells in your body than you have your own . The probiotics interact with the levels of bacteria and try to maintain a balance between beneficial and pathogenic forms. This is the difference between health and illness. When a course of anti biotics are prescribed the gut flora is altered . Reduced and the ratio ideally 85% beneficial and controlled , or held in check, levels of pathogenic at about 15% . There may be a rebound effect , calling for another round of anti biotics .. vicious circle . 
Yogurt can or can not be good . A lot of hype attached . If it is sugar laden then you are working against yourself and feeding the wrong bacteria, the ones which feed fungi , Candida being one . Of course never feed your dog a yogurt that is artificially sweetened , some may be dangerous - xylitol - better to avoid all of them . You can get grains of yogurt and kefir bacteria and easily make your own . You can ferment vegetable matter- sauerkraut is a classic -- (easy to make) as is kimchi . Probiotics help absorb nutrients from thoroughly broken down food , absorb minerals - calcium and synthesize vitamin B. Good anti diarrheal benefits as well as other health related issues - skin, tumor , compromised immune .

Chlorella acts like a probiotic helping combat pathogenic bacteria without reducing , actually stimulating growth of beneficial bacteria at the same time . I mention chlorella because your dog has diarrhea and chlorella settles the colons rhythm , peristalsis , so that nutrients can be absorbed , and stool passed , so neither diarrhea nor constipation . Even before that the villi , the little fingers which are the surface area for absorption are kept clear so that they may function at optimum. 
Spirulina stimulates growth of positive beneficial bacteria and contributes to greater absorption. 
Chlorophyll rich greens, wheat grass , barley grass, help detoxify and help maintain pH levels that probiotics thrive in.

Digestive enzymes are every bit as important . They are the sparks and minerals , so deficient in our diets -- read Bernard Jensen's Empty Harvest for a new appreciation of the state of our food supply [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Empty-Harvest-Bernard-Jensen/dp/089529558X[/ame]

Without minerals enzymes can't work. They are the spark plugs . 

There are metabolic enzymes are made by a healthy body and are the controls for chemical reactions within the body.

Digestive enzymes, the four major (common in supplements) would be protease, lipase, amylase and cellulase. These break down foods into the smallest most absorbable units . These are parts of the foods that are eaten , and are sensitive to heat -- 110 F still "raw" 140 F generally considered thoroughly cooked with enzymes and bacteria destroyed . 

Protease breaks down protein - including the protein that virus coat themselves with and the protein or fibrin coating that a cancer cell protects itself with . 
Meat is hung to tenderize and that is the protease enzyme action activated by a change in pH levels.

Amylase breaks down carbohydrates into useable sugars .

Cellulase breaks down tough fibrous material .

Lipase breaks down dietary fats into fatty acids which can be used . 

There are many more digestive enzymes, each operating in a specific temperature and specific pH .

there are two supplements often discussed for health benefits , one being Apple Cider Vinegar -- and the other MSM . Big surprise !!!! Only raw - real - apple cider vinegar such as BRAGGS with mother offer benefits. Other form such as white vinegar is nasty stuff made from coal tar. White vinegar that is real comes from coconut as ONE example . 

the "other" food supplement , little known fact , is MSM . There are many foods that are rich in organic sulfur, garlic being one such source . MSM can and should be sourced from FOOD - companies in US and Canada do provide MSM from grains --- however the majority of MSM on the market is made in China from petrochemicals. 

The results are not the same. 

I do go to great lengths to find these things.

check out Dogs Naturally Magazine .


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Recently a great deal of attention has been given...


WOW, carmspack.....that is a lot of info you took the time to educate me with and I am so grateful, thank you! I will study what you have given me so I may take better care of our "babies"....thank you again!!

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Capone22 said:


> I hope puppy is doing well. If your Gavin trouble getting rid of the giardia, try kocci free. Myself and several other members here have had great luck with it. It cured my dogs chronic giardia in 10 days. And she was very sick. Good luck.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Kocci Free is on the way along with probiotics and digestive enzymes. Thank you and everyone else so much for helping and for your concern!

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Only just seeing this thread, TxQuax, I am thinking about your baby. Prayers and good thoughts are headed your way.

Carmpack (and everyone else here who is so helpful), you are amazing. I had no idea about all this stuff. I thought I was doing great with having Parvaid, Vibactra, and green tripe on hand, but I will be ordering enzymes and probiotics today!

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Contrary said:


> Only just seeing this thread, TxQuax, I am thinking about your baby. Prayers and good thoughts are headed your way.
> 
> Carmpack (and everyone else here who is so helpful), you are amazing. I had no idea about all this stuff. I thought I was doing great with having Parvaid, Vibactra, and green tripe on hand, but I will be ordering enzymes and probiotics today!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you, Contrary, I have been following you and little Storm's heartbreaking story, and I assure you prayers and good thoughts have been directed your way and will certainly continue. Hugs. 

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Received the Kocci Free yesterday....so far Quax has had five doses with one more to go for today. Actually got a poopy this afternoon that resembled a somewhat normal one! Digestive enzymes & probiotics were SUPPOSED to be here yesterday but an attempted delivery was made today but said they had the wrong address. Got a hold of a supervisor....they DO have correct address and their driver apparently got lost. We live on a driver training route....grrrrrr. I will pick up tomorrow at their service facility as it is too late tonight when I received info. Hope all are having a great night. 















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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to hear he's doing better. He sure is a cutie!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Glad to hear he's doing better. He sure is a cutie!


Thank you!! 

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Update / Results: Quax's last dose (10 days) of the Kocci Free was Sunday. Took Quax and a stool sample to vet today, the Coccidia test came back negative, yay! Giardia test still positive, boo! My vet stated he was actually a little surprised as Quax's stool looked so good. I think he was a little impressed the Kocci Free knocked out the Coccidia because he suggested trying another round and if he still tests positive for Giardia, then go back to the meds (metro) he originally prescribed. Quax was do for his last Parvo vacc two weeks ago but have held off waiting to get this kicked....have read on this forum not to do vaccinations when pups immune systems are low or working overtime. This applies here, correct....or am I over thinking this? On the way home, I thought about Panacur, should I try that before doing Kocci Free again? If not, do I start the Kocci immediately again, or how many days should I wait? Any thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated, thank you!

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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Im following you with this. I got the Kocci free but have not started it yet. She is off Panacur for one week now. Do you know how long panacur stays in the system? They asked me that at Kocci free to determine if we can start it.




TxQuax said:


> Update / Results: Quax's last dose (10 days) of the Kocci Free was Sunday. Took Quax and a stool sample to vet today, the Coccidia test came back negative, yay! Giardia test still positive, boo! My vet stated he was actually a little surprised as Quax's stool looked so good. I think he was a little impressed the Kocci Free knocked out the Coccidia because he suggested trying another round and if he still tests positive for Giardia, then go back to the meds (metro) he originally prescribed. Quax was do for his last Parvo vacc two weeks ago but have held off waiting to get this kicked....have read on this forum not to do vaccinations when pups immune systems are low or working overtime. This applies here, correct....or am I over thinking this? On the way home, I thought about Panacur, should I try that before doing Kocci Free again? If not, do I start the Kocci immediately again, or how many days should I wait? Any thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated, thank you!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

kr16 said:


> Im following you with this. I got the Kocci free but have not started it yet. She is off Panacur for one week now. Do you know how long panacur stays in the system? They asked me that at Kocci free to determine if we can start it.


Wish I had an answer for you....I haven't used the Panacur. I just remember seeing other posts that it worked where the Metro didn't or they used Panacur and Metro together. Hopefully someone will chime in that knows. I thought I did read that they should be off any antibiotics for at least 3 days before starting the Kocci.....but again, I'm not even positive about that.

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

kr16 said:


> Im following you with this. I got the Kocci free but have not started it yet. She is off Panacur for one week now. Do you know how long panacur stays in the system? They asked me that at Kocci free to determine if we can start it.


Are you doing the Kocci Free because test shows Panacur did not help or are you doing to make sure it does not reoccur?

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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

TxQuax said:


> Are you doing the Kocci Free because test shows Panacur did not help or are you doing to make sure it does not reoccur?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We only finished the Panacur last Monday and that was the first time we used it. She gets some more deworming stuff this Friday, not Panacur than goes back in two weeks to be tested again. She has no symptoms of anything from day 1. They tested and found roundworm and the Giardia.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

TxQuax said:


> Update / Results: Quax's last dose (10 days) of the Kocci Free was Sunday. Took Quax and a stool sample to vet today, the Coccidia test came back negative, yay! Giardia test still positive, boo! My vet stated he was actually a little surprised as Quax's stool looked so good. I think he was a little impressed the Kocci Free knocked out the Coccidia because he suggested trying another round and if he still tests positive for Giardia, then go back to the meds (metro) he originally prescribed. Quax was do for his last Parvo vacc two weeks ago but have held off waiting to get this kicked....have read on this forum not to do vaccinations when pups immune systems are low or working overtime. This applies here, correct....or am I over thinking this? On the way home, I thought about Panacur, should I try that before doing Kocci Free again? If not, do I start the Kocci immediately again, or how many days should I wait? Any thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated, thank you!
> 
> Bumpity bump....
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App




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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sorry, just saw this. That is disappointing that she still has giardia. I think you need to wait at least 10 days between courses of Kocci free. Did you do the Vibactra Plus too? Why don't you call Amber Technologies and see what they recommend?


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Sorry, just saw this. That is disappointing that she still has giardia. I think you need to wait at least 10 days between courses of Kocci free. Did you do the Vibactra Plus too? Why don't you call Amber Technologies and see what they recommend?


Thank you....I agree, will call them. I am pleased it worked for the Coccidia. Nope, no Vibactra. Warning info for Kocci Free is DO NOT combine with Vibactra if I recall correctly. I have a couple thoughts as to why it may not have knocked out the Giardia.

1. He was just under the recommended weight for a higher dose almost all 10 days but has now crossed that mark. Maybe the higher dose will work this time.

2. Perhaps I have not done a good enough job cleaning up environment. I am vigilant keeping poopies picked up in yard, though....I use shovel and bleach/water spray every time. Quax did have a couple poopy accidents in the house while I was distracted....he ate them or partially before I discovered. Yuck. So maybe this reinfected him?

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

TxQuax said:


> Thank you....I agree, will call them. I am pleased it worked for the Coccidia. Nope, no Vibactra. Warning info for Kocci Free is DO NOT combine with Vibactra if I recall correctly. I have a couple thoughts as to why it may not have knocked out the Giardia.
> 
> 1. He was just under the recommended weight for a higher dose almost all 10 days but has now crossed that mark. Maybe the higher dose will work this time.
> 
> ...


Just hung up with Amber Tech.....contradicting info. Lady I spoke with stated their herbalist likes "a break" between treatments. Then she says go ahead and begin giving treatments now, it won't hurt him and perhaps because he had a double whammy of Giardia and Coccidia simultaneously is why it didn't get the Giardia. Ugh, ugh, ugh...UGH!! Contradicting info makes me nuts. When I asked why the herbalist likes a break in treatment, she says because herbalist feels that if they are sick, it effects their immune system etc, etc, etc. Now this makes sense to me with all the help and info you, Carmspack and others have helped to educate me with.....but, she tells me it's ok to continue treating & that it won't hurt him if given 30 days consecutively. Contradicting info really irks me as it is their product, I would prefer a definite answer....black or white, no gray area. As Quax does seem fine, not sickly, poopies look so normal.....I am leaning toward continuing treatment as this suggests he is strong. He has been back on his regular food for about five days now without any problems.....maybe I will go back to boiled chicken etc while retreating to help keep his gut settled? Thinking I'm reluctant to do that though as long as poopies are good.....my thinking is he misses out on a lot of the nutritional values in his premium food as he is a puppy, growing and needs those nutrients. Am I over thinking again? Any thoughts? Thank you!

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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

I got two different answers from them as well. I still cant find out how long Panacur stays in the system.



TxQuax said:


> Just hung up with Amber Tech.....contradicting info. Lady I spoke with stated their herbalist likes "a break" between treatments. Then she says go ahead and begin giving treatments now, it won't hurt him and perhaps because he had a double whammy of Giardia and Coccidia simultaneously is why it didn't get the Giardia. Ugh, ugh, ugh...UGH!! Contradicting info makes me nuts. When I asked why the herbalist likes a break in treatment, she says because herbalist feels that if they are sick, it effects their immune system etc, etc, etc. Now this makes sense to me with all the help and info you, Carmspack and others have helped to educate me with.....but, she tells me it's ok to continue treating & that it won't hurt him if given 30 days consecutively. Contradicting info really irks me as it is their product, I would prefer a definite answer....black or white, no gray area. As Quax does seem fine, not sickly, poopies look so normal.....I am leaning toward continuing treatment as this suggests he is strong. He has been back on his regular food for about five days now without any problems.....maybe I will go back to boiled chicken etc while retreating to help keep his gut settled? Thinking I'm reluctant to do that though as long as poopies are good.....my thinking is he misses out on a lot of the nutritional values in his premium food as he is a puppy, growing and needs those nutrients. Am I over thinking again? Any thoughts? Thank you!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I would go with what the herbalist says. They have a vested interest in selling more of their product and herbs are not risk-free (hence the warnings on the box). 

Giardia is very hard to get rid of, especially for a pup with an immature immune system.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

kr16 said:


> I got two different answers from them as well. I still cant find out how long Panacur stays in the system.


I've had a hard time finding a half-life for Panacur in dogs. I did find this:

Fenbendazole is only partly absorbed after oral administration and is then metabolised in the liver. The half life of
fenbendazole in serum after oral application of the recommended dose in cattle is 10-18 hours, in sheep 21-33 hours
and in pigs 10 hours. Fenbendazole and its metabolites are distributed throughout the body and high concentrations can
be found in the liver. The elimination of fenbendazole and its metabolites occurs primarily via the faeces (>90%) and
to a small extent in the urine and milk. Fenbendazole is metabolised to itssulphoxide then to sulphone and amines.

http://www.imb.ie/images/uploaded/swedocuments/LicenseSPC_10996-110-001_09102009020434.pdf


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Thanks Not sure what the big deal is that Kocci stuff is all non chemicals except the ethyl alcohol. I will start it tonight



Contrary said:


> I've had a hard time finding a half-life for Panacur in dogs. I did find this:
> 
> Fenbendazole is only partly absorbed after oral administration and is then metabolised in the liver. The half life of
> fenbendazole in serum after oral application of the recommended dose in cattle is 10-18 hours, in sheep 21-33 hours
> ...


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

kr16 said:


> Thanks Not sure what the big deal is that Kocci stuff is all non chemicals except the ethyl alcohol. I will start it tonight


Just a thought as I am not an expert, you might want to start in the morning if someone is going to be home. Or at least early as you can in the day when someone is home from work etc. Warnings do indicate they may have allergic reaction. I was nervous to start in the evening in case we were asleep and unable to notice any kind of reaction.....yes, I'm a nervous Nellie. You think these babies have sensitive systems....try horses! I constantly checking my horse for anything out of the ordinary.

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> I would go with what the herbalist says. They have a vested interest in selling more of their product and herbs are not risk-free (hence the warnings on the box).
> 
> Giardia is very hard to get rid of, especially for a pup with an immature immune system.


Even though I stated and decided to start back today, I was unable to bring myself to give him a dose. I agree with you, there is a reason the herbalist thinks that way and I want to err on the side of caution.

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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

kr16 said:


> Thanks Not sure what the big deal is that Kocci stuff is all non chemicals except the ethyl alcohol. I will start it tonight


Success....after battling for 7 1/2 weeks, Quax finally tested negative for Giardia yesterday! The first round of Kocci Free knocked out the Coccidia but not the Giardia... waited five days and started him back on it. I thought I had enough to do the full ten days again, but only had about 6 1/2 days left so was unsuccessful the second time as well....had I had the full ten days left, the Kocci Free may have worked. I waited a few more days to make sure that was out of his system and asked vet for Panacur and Metro combo as others here said that worked for them, too....did five days and it worked, yay! 


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## DobberDog (Jul 29, 2013)

Congrats on getting rid of the Giardia and Coccidia. We had issues with Giardia with Angel too. PITA to deal with and get rid of! Bet your baby will grow by leaps and bounds now that its out of this system!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

DobberDog said:


> Congrats on getting rid of the Giardia and Coccidia. We had issues with Giardia with Angel too. PITA to deal with and get rid of! Bet your baby will grow by leaps and bounds now that its out of this system!


Thank you DobberDog...you are correct, it was a PITA!! Hah, I hope he does not grow by leaps and bounds anymore.... I'm already concerned he is growing too fast now! I am amazed at how big he is already and in awe of the glimpses I see of what I can imagine he is going to look like when mature. 

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## DobberDog (Jul 29, 2013)

LOL. I understand the growing to fast thing. Seems like Angel grows a few inches a day here lately. After we got rid of the giardia though, she got way more active and had a huge growth spurt. Don't know if the growth spurt was coincidental or what but man oh man she just sprouted.


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