# Thoughts on this line-breeding



## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

3,5 - 4,5......................................... in Cordon An-Sat
4 - 5............................................. in SG TERI SNB CS
4 - 5............................................. in V Car pod Molnosskou banou 5JKX5


Interested to hear what the thoughts of how heavy this line-breeding is?

thnx


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I personally think it is a bit heavy for my taste. BUT depending on the dogs and previous litters etc. I would make a judgment on a puppy by that, not neccessarily the line breeding.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

VonKromeHaus said:


> I personally think it is a bit heavy for my taste. BUT depending on the dogs and previous litters etc. I would make a judgment on a puppy by that, not neccessarily the line breeding.


I already know what they have and can potentially produce, I'm simply curious on thoughts of such a close line-breeding.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

IMO I feel that 3,5 - 4,5......................................... in Cordon An-Sat is a bit to much, not sure Cordon's genetic's is strong enough to do this type of breeding


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Would you say its a bit much in general terms like with any dog? or do you feel that Cordon An-Sat himself is not a strong enough dog genetically in health and production to do such a close line-breeding on him?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

From a linebreeding perspective, it looks very normal to many many many showline pedigrees(both American and German), so it must be Okay, right?
Cordon is a very nice dog, so it sounds to me like a "winning" recipe.:smirk:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

4TheDawgies said:


> I already know what they have and can potentially produce, I'm simply curious on thoughts of such a close line-breeding.


If you already know the answer... why ask the question? Do you mean, "what do you think of such a close linebreeding on any dog?"


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> From a linebreeding perspective, it looks very normal to many many many showline pedigrees(both American and German), so it must be Okay, right?
> Cordon is a very nice dog, so it sounds to me like a "winning" recipe.:smirk:


Is that sarcasm or a genuine comment?

I know Cordon was a very nice dog, but seeing a line-breeding that heavy scares me a little. Wanted to know what others experience are in any other dogs line-bred that heavily. Even if anyone has a dog of their own, or one they've met with line-breeding that heavily, not necessarily on the same dog and what the outcomes were both good and bad. 
I already have some professional opinions but I wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had anything else for input. 



BlackthornGSD said:


> If you already know the answer... why ask the question? Do you mean, "what do you think of such a close linebreeding on any dog?"


Yes that's exactly what I meant Christine!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

4TheDawgies said:


> Is that sarcasm or a genuine comment?
> 
> I know Cordon was a very nice dog, but seeing a line-breeding that heavy scares me a little. Wanted to know what others experience are in any other dogs line-bred that heavily. Even if anyone has a dog of their own, or one they've met with line-breeding that heavily, not necessarily on the same dog and what the outcomes were both good and bad.
> I already have some professional opinions but I wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone had anything else for input.
> ...


Many dogs do quite well with linebreeding that close or closer--most, even, are just fine as far as health or temperament; some are excellent--either because of or despite the linebreeding. Of course, many of the most serious "problems" from really tight in/linebreeding may never be born or not survive much past birth or may just be resorbed in the womb.

I think that there should be a reason *for* a linebreeding, not just "oh, this is pair of dogs I own, so I'll put them together and make puppies." The linebreeding should help achieve some goal and the breeder should be able to tell you what it is.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What about Cordon scares you? What negative recessives does he possess that would give you concern?? Do the bloodlines of both American and German showlines concern you because they are much more saturated in linebreeding than what you posted......I'm trying to understand the logic of your inquiry.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

In order to ask the question, you must know the answer. As Cliff stated, what are you concerned about- the high percentage of a certain bloodline from a dog that ihas been described as a very nice dog from someone who studies and has experience with German shepherds.
Why don't you inform us as to what was said about this breeding from your professional source? We are all here to learn.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I'd look at the linebreeding and say, "ok, lots of linebreeding on Cordon."

Then I would look more into the individual dogs on the PED to find out their characteristics to see if they displayed the same type of qualities that you hear about with Cordon.

As Cliff said, Cordon was a really good dog.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The Teri and Car linebreeding doesn't count, since those are Cordon's parents. Though PDB always shows more linebreeding than it should in that regard.

I just bred to a male who is 3-4 on Cordon. Though in my case it is the male who is linebred, not the litter, and the litter itself is a complete outcross. My experience spending time with that male, and several offspring, and my research into his lines (including linebreeding on Cordon) hasn't given me any cause for concern. 

The linebreeding you're pointing to is still no where near as extreme as is becoming common today in some lines, and of course what else is in the pedigree to balance out the traits from the linebreeding plays every bit as large a role.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> I just bred to a male who is 3-4 on Cordon. Though in my case it is the male who is linebred, not the litter, and the litter itself is a complete outcross.


Chris - I am a lil slow, can you explain this part as I am confused. You said the male is linebred, not the litter.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Oh wait..nevermind, I got it...lol

In what ways do you think that effects the progeny? As opposed to if the litter was linebred.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> What about Cordon scares you? What negative recessives does he possess that would give you concern?? Do the bloodlines of both American and German showlines concern you because they are much more saturated in linebreeding than what you posted......I'm trying to understand the logic of your inquiry.


Nothing about Cordon specifically scares me, I've heard very positive words on the dog. That's why I'm considering this. 

Any sort of heavy line-breeding scares me in a general term because this breed is already being bred into a corner. I don't like the idea of locking in recessive genes that we have no idea of knowing are in there, and paying for it later in this breed. However I do see the extreme value in locking in some of the very very nice genes Cordon has to offer to the German Shepherd breed and has offered. 

I think Line-breedings should be more carefully researched before throwing them together because its famous dogs. Not talking down about breeders who actually do their research. But I have found that quite a few breeders seem to just throw dogs together because the line-breeding has famous names in it. 

This specific comment is what made me continue the questioning. This poster NarysDad has something to say about the genetics of Cordon and saying they are not strong enough because this is actually the first I've heard someone say something like that about Cordon. 



NarysDad said:


> IMO I feel that 3,5 - 4,5......................................... in Cordon An-Sat is a bit to much, not sure Cordon's genetic's is strong enough to do this type of breeding


This is what I was seeking out. The more people you ask questions to the more answers you will get to make a more informed decision. I am still waiting to hear why this person thinks Cordon's genetics are not strong enough. 

I am by no means doubting the professional sources I have. However, there are quite a bit of professional and very experienced German Shepherd people on here as well. I wanted to see if they had any additional input.



Doc said:


> In order to ask the question, you must know the answer. As Cliff stated, what are you concerned about- the high percentage of a certain bloodline from a dog that ihas been described as a very nice dog from someone who studies and has experience with German shepherds.
> Why don't you inform us as to what was said about this breeding from your professional source? We are all here to learn.


The professional sources I have sought out on this breeding have had more positive than negative to say. The negatives I have heard are obviously potential recessives (not specifically something they know about, just generally speaking about locking in genes).
Otherwise I heard the potential to put in too much aggression, but going by what the parents and grandparents are like on both dogs I don't feel that's a concern.
From a source who has me the potential sire I have heard fantastic reviews. Saying the dog is just like his sire who was very well known for being a really great dog. 

He thinks matching these bloodlines and specific dogs has great potential. 

A few other sources have said the same and have liked what they have seen in the dogs parents and grand parents. 







Chris Wild said:


> The Teri and Car linebreeding doesn't count, since those are Cordon's parents. Though PDB always shows more linebreeding than it should in that regard.
> 
> I just bred to a male who is 3-4 on Cordon. Though in my case it is the male who is linebred, not the litter, and the litter itself is a complete outcross. My experience spending time with that male, and several offspring, and my research into his lines (including linebreeding on Cordon) hasn't given me any cause for concern.
> 
> The linebreeding you're pointing to is still no where near as extreme as is becoming common today in some lines, and of course what else is in the pedigree to balance out the traits from the linebreeding plays every bit as large a role.


Thank you for your input Chris! Very valuable! I appreciate it.

Both parents are obviously line-bred on Cordon, I have liked what I have seen produced. I am hoping to see a more consistent litter with the traits both the sire and the dam have. The dam was bred to an out cross and the litter was pretty scattered as far as abilities. All have great things to offer in each puppy and all have been fantastic puppies. I have been lucky enough to be able to watch everyone from the litter grow. However when breeding, ultimately you want to create as much consistency as possible. So that is the hope for a line-breeding with Cordon who brings everything that is hoped to be brought into the litter more consistently.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let me be clear that I neither condoned or condemned this breeding. There are some cases when Cordon is a good dog to linebreed on, but other linebreedings with Cordon can be a disaster. It really depends on the type of other dogs in the pedigree to balance out the strengths and weaknesses of Cordon. Breeding is much deeper than the obvious linebreeding, and I often see dogs that are great producers who should never be linebred. I have owned and bred linebred Cordon dogs, so I feel like I know what he is capable of producing...still its only applicable to the other dogs that were part of that pedigree....mix him with other dogs and you get a whole nother outcome.


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