# Should I use a prong collar?



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

My dog is about to be 9 months old and is very obedient in the house, he knows all the basic commands and some tricks. Even outside he's obedient for the most part, he has a very good heel and I'm able to keep him focused except for one thing, which is cars. His hair stands on end and he stares at the car until it gets close then once its passing us he lunges at them. I've tried everything to get his attention, he refuses to take food, my leash corrections only work for a split second then he's lunging again and I can say no til I'm blue in the face and he doesn't hear me. I tried doing circles, he lunges as soon as we get turned back around again. I make him sit by the road to try and de-sensitize him to the cars, and as long as I make him sit before he sees the car he will stay, but still won't take food and still very focused on the car. 

I've been using a regular nylon collar but since my leash corrections are basically useless when this happens I think I need to try something else. I've looked at martingale collars, prong collars and harnesses. I tried a choke chain, about as useful as the flat collar, and I really don't want to use an electric collar because my parents used one on their dog and it didn't stop the bad behavior, just gave the dog a nasty looking wound on the front of his neck where it delivered the shock. I've had to start walking him in the park where the cars are far enough away that they don't seem to bother him as much just to get him some exercise. I'm really worried he's going to get hurt or he's going to get ME hurt since he's getting bigger and can already easily overpower me. Should I try a different collar or is that not the problem?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

If your dog can overpower you, then it's time to change something. Are you anticipating the cars coming and trying to get his focus to you before the car is close enough for him to react? Since trying to de-sensitize hasn't worked, it sounds like you've got to get his attention off the car and back to you. It's just my opinion, but I'd go with a prong collar at this point to put an end to this. It's dangerous. You need a clear and consistent reaction to his obsession. The trick is, it's got to be the same thing, every single time. You deviate once, and it's all over. Use the prong to break his fixation if you've already lost his attention. Otherwise, use it to get his attention on you before the car gets too close. Engage him in obedience runs until the car is passed. Then praise, praise and praise. If you don't catch him in time, break that concentration right away and get the focus back to you. Do NOT wimp out on this. His behaviors could cause him and you your lives if he overpowers you. Make sure the prong is fitted correctly. Make sure you know exactly how to correct with it. If he's already out at the end of the lead, you're not going to get the right correction. He's already been self-gratifying for some time with this, so you have to make it absolutely clear that this is NOT allowed...ever. Expect some yipping in the beginning. 

I'd suspect that you've got some nervous energy running down the lead by this time. You've got to get rid of that. It's encouragement to the dog to do this behavior. Don't tighten the lead when a car is approaching. Keep the lead tighter the entire time so there's no change to put the dog on alert. Don't avoid cars... you're trying to correct this so go where they are.

I'm sure others will have other opinions on this. This is just mine. Dangerous behaviors are not to be fooled around with, IMO. They need to be stopped, and quick. With the amount of time this dog has been doing this, I would go directly to the prong without hesitation and issue harsh correction.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

A prong has worked wonders for my two. I do believe that it'll help you redirect/catch his attention when he behaves this way toward cars. It's important that you learn how to use one correctly and I agree with Jag that you need a harsh correction for this type of behavior; it puts both of you at risk and it's important to be safe...ask away if you need help fitting or using a prong...


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## bigd3077 (Aug 19, 2012)

Some people don't like them, however my dog responded very well. The first time I put it on, she threw a tantrum for a minute or two. Now, she has no problem with it whatsoever. She does not pull at all. Mine even had rubber covers on the prongs.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

forget about devices (a certain collar, a certain leash,
a harness, etc.). find a trainer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> forget about devices (a certain collar, a certain leash,
> a harness, etc.). find a trainer.


A trainer will suggest a certain collar, I'm sure! But definitely find a good trainer! 
Are you able to provide proper exercise(besides walks?) so your dog can get out some energy? I would try to find a good herding instructor/trainer if you have that option available.

If my dog was having this issue, I'd go with either an e-collar or a prong. E-collar will not be a quick fix if you are doing it right, there is a foundation to set/can't just slap one on and stim away, the dog needs to be trained ON that collar before you start the correction for car chasing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like a pretty extreme reaction to the automobiles. That is interesting, but not unheard of. Some dogs chase cars. There was a border collie down the road... (story for another time). 

The pup is nine months old, I think you should go ahead and try the prong. If it works, then you are ahead of the game, and maybe in a couple of months, you will not need the prong. I don't think it will make things worse. 

I think it is more disturbing to think that I might be overpowered by my dog. Our dogs are smart, scary smart, but not human smart. This is why a seven year old kid can properly manage a schutzhund dog in a trial. That small, skinny child does not think that the dog can over power her. GSD owners have to have confidence. If we do not have confidence, our dogs will quickly recognize that and either walk all over us, or they will be very insecure and believing that they must take control of situation.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's a big difference in a trainer advicing usuing
a certain collar as opposed to a civilian.



doggiedad said:


> forget about devices (a certain collar, a certain leash,
> a harness, etc.). find a trainer.





onyx'girl said:


> >>>>A trainer will suggest a certain collar, I'm sure!<<<<
> 
> But definitely find a good trainer!
> Are you able to provide proper exercise(besides walks?) so your dog can get out some energy? I would try to find a good herding instructor/trainer if you have that option available.
> ...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm working on a similar reaction, Selzer. Grim was born out in the country. He had a violent reaction the first time a car drove by. I took him out to do desensitizing. It got better, but he'll still stop during walks and fixate on the car. I can't get a correction on the flat collar, and his attention to it is unbreakable. I ordered a martingale collar to put an end to this before he gets older. I don't want him even LOOKING at the cars going by. He started to take off after a couple, but with a leash correction and stern verbal correction that ended. I've NEVER had a shepherd do this, but I suppose if the first time you see a car is at 11-12 weeks old, that could cause it. It's a constant work in progress. If he's still pulling this at an older age, I will most definitely up the corrections until it stops. He can't overpower me, though. I agree with working on the leadership, but the car chasing needs to stop immediately.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

Honestly before training I was using a harness for bubbles I really liked it. My trainer said I have to use a choke collar. Lately Bubbles has been wanting to chase cars. The choke collar does nothing. She is determined lol ! When I see or hear a car I try to go in a different direction. That's not a solution but its an idea until you find a solution. Bubbles is in training classes for impulse control and other behavior training. Like others said its a good idea to find a trainer.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

It sounds like you need to work more on desensitization, not use stronger corrections.
If your dog is not taking treats they are above threshold and I would try working at a greater distance, where you are at a point that they will still take treats.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My puppy used to want to chase cars too, but whenever we're out walking and one passes us I always put him in a sit and wait for the car to pass. He's at the point now that they don't phase him, but he was squirmy in the beginning. I didn't use treats for this either, because my puppy wouldn't pay attention to them anyway.

I'd try a prong if I were you, since this has to be dealt with before it gets any worse. But make sure that the one you get has smooth edges on it - some of them are really crappily made, and sharp.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Chicagocanine said:


> It sounds like you need to work more on desensitization, not use stronger corrections.
> If your dog is not taking treats they are above threshold and I would try working at a greater distance, where you are at a point that they will still take treats.


This is it. Desensitization can work when done at the proper levels. 

I would find a trainer that could show you how to do this so that it is effective. 

I am not averse to using a good correction when it comes to my dogs' safety, but at the same time, I like to teach them what I DO want even more. This generally has a much better success rate.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am not an expert but can only go by my own experience. Stella lunged, barked, etc at dogs and other animal. I tried everything. I too was afraid of losing control of my dog. She had pulled me down more than once. I finally went to a trainer who suggested the prong. For us, it was a miracle. I feel completely in control of her and we have been able to meet other dogs and animals without her carrying on. But it is important to learn how to use it correctly.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

It's like power stearing. Who wants to drive without it?
Get a prong, seriously!


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

You have a lot of options for collars. I agree with Jag this is a big issue you need to get a handle on it asap. Suggestion if you decide to get a prong collar... Make sure you learn how to use this tool correctly so the dog understands what it is, what it does, and how they can avoid corrections by doing the correct behavior. Then the dog becomes responsible for their behavior. Also make sure the prong collar is fitted correctly. 

How To Use a Prong Collar Part 1 - YouTube

How To Use A Prong Collar Part 2 - YouTube

I did enjoy these videos on the prong collar. I hope this helps!


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## wildrivers (Sep 28, 2011)

Studies indicate a prong coller stresses the dog more then the correct use of a ecollar. Go to a good trainer and learn it, most of the undesired behaviors will go away. Study the use of it before you choose your trainer. Recommend reading anything from Michelle Ellis or Lou Castle.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> My dog is about to be 9 months old and is very obedient in the house, he knows all the basic commands and some tricks. Even outside he's obedient for the most part, he has a very good heel and I'm able to keep him focused except for one thing, which is cars.* His hair stands on end and he stares at the car until it gets close then once its passing us he lunges at them. *


Why would you allow your dog to focus on a distraction that you already know he's going to react to?

"Here it comes..getting closer...OMG!...here it comes...it's nearly here...OMG ! OMG!..GOTTA GET IT .....ARGHHHHH!" 

In the mean time what is going through your mind? "Holy Crap! Here comes a vehicle. He's going to do it again. Must try to contain him. But it isn't going to work. He's going to go crazy! I know it!"

You are helping build your dogs reaction by allowing it to focus on the distraction. As soon as your dog focuses on the vehicle, change direction. Occupy your dog's mind with what ever it takes to distract it from the vehicle that causes the adverse reaction. Food, squeaker toys, changing direction, running backwards...what ever it takes. 

Some dogs work well with a solid command, such as sit. I have a dog that if I asked him to sit while he was having a reaction (especially something that I know he is going to react to) would be like adding fuel to a fire in an attempt to put it out.


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## 5dogsandababy (Nov 10, 2012)

Instead of a prong collar try a gentle leader/head halter and a short leash. Don't allow the dog to be walking you(walking in front of you). A prong collar will give you no control over their head or nose, a gentle leader will make their head follow you. As soon as you see a car, focus on stopping the behavior rather than "Oh no here we go again." Get your dogs attention, make him sit stay. However intense he is being in his energy, is how intense you have to be with your discipline.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I like prongs when needed and a lot of dogs I know hate the gentle leaders but you have to be careful with reactivity and prongs because sometimes the prong amps them up more. If the prong amps her up and you can't control her on a slip type collar than I would consider the gentle leader so you feel confident she can't get away from you. Then Look into de sensitization exercises. Like LAT or BAT. look up Control unleashed 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sarah~ said:


> ... as long as I make him sit before he sees the car he will stay, but still won't take food and still very focused on the car.
> 
> I've had to start walking him in the park where the cars are far enough away that they don't seem to bother him as much just to get him some exercise.


It sounds as though as long as you're in control of the situation, things are fine. If he'll stay in a sit when requested, and not lunge at the car, then that's what you want to keep doing, in my experience. 

And desensitizing him in the park is a great way to get him used to them too. I can't say anything about an ecollar, since I've never used one, but I'd be wary about putting a head harness on a dog that jumps and lunges, because neck injuries can occur.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree. A halti or any head collar in this situation is going to lead to possible real damage to your dog. IMO, an E-collar is over the top. I also feel just buying one and reading internet directions with an E-collar can be a huge mistake. I know for some people who have a vested interest in a certain website feel it's a great option. I don't. I've used a prong on 3 dogs without any adverse reactions or any harm to the dog. Stress? The dog is stressed now (as in cortisol production) about the cars! The handler is stressed about the dog putting them both in danger. I'd much rather have the temporary "stress" of a dog getting used to a prong correction than a dead dog or dead handler. Then again, I'm all about seeing tomorrow. 

If you're unsure about what you're doing, then see a trainer. However, with the things you've already listed that you've trained the dog to do it sounds like you can get the dog past this. I'd like to use positive methods instead of correction, also. However, it depends on how much you like your dog breathing I guess.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the dog has an altered frame of mind because of an outside distraction (i.e. car), then using a head collar (i.e. halti or gentle leader) can lead to serious injury or death of your dog. This is highly unlikely with a prong collar. I won't comment on an e-collar except to say that managing a training device with your hands when you are trying to manage the leash and the collar might be one to many gadgets to deal with. 

Dogs WILL slither/wriggle out of a halti, and a dog that will chase cars, is a danger to himself.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you have an e-collar on the dog, then dealing with a leash is not a big issue, you have a remote, possibly a prong with a tab or long line on it and use it while training the dog to the collar, but not while you are having cars whiz by. 

Part of being a good handler is learning to juggle lines and fancy footwork! Not sure I'll ever get the hang of it....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> If you have an e-collar on the dog, then dealing with a leash is not a big issue, you have a remote, possibly a prong with a tab or long line on it and use it while training the dog to the collar, but not while you are having cars whiz by.
> 
> Part of being a good handler is learning to juggle lines and fancy footwork! Not sure I'll ever get the hang of it....


One day I was hanging out at PetsMart, waiting for a dog to get dry, when the trainer was befuddling an owner and a pup with a jar of pennies, and a clicker and a bag of treats. I swear I was just shaking my head. I really can walk and chew bubble gum, but all that juggling while trying to get the timing right would be totally insane. I would be uselessly shaking the pupperonies instead of the pennies and reaching for the penny jug when I wanted to treat the dog. Forget it. I have nothing against having a couple of treats in the pocket, but I don't think one should be reaching for treats or gadgets when their hands need to be controlling the dog, such as when the dog is trying to chase a car.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Sarah~ said:


> he has a very good heel and I'm able to keep him focused except for one thing, which is cars. His hair stands on end and he stares at the car until it gets close then once its passing us he lunges at them. I've tried everything to get his attention, he refuses to take food, my leash corrections only work for a split second then he's lunging again and I can say no til I'm blue in the face and he doesn't hear me. I tried doing circles, he lunges as soon as we get turned back around again. I make him sit by the road to try and de-sensitize him to the cars, and as long as I make him sit before he sees the car he will stay, but still won't take food and still very focused on the car.
> 
> I've been using a regular nylon collar but since my leash corrections are basically useless when this happens I think I need to try something else. I've looked at martingale collars, prong collars and harnesses. I tried a choke chain, about as useful as the flat collar, and I really don't want to use an electric collar because my parents used one on their dog and it didn't stop the bad behavior, just gave the dog a nasty looking wound on the front of his neck where it delivered the shock.


If you've tried other collars and not gotten results, the Ecollar, if used properly, will in all likliehood, give you the control you want in this situation. Your parent's dog got that injury either because they disregarded directions not to attach the leash to the Ecollar strap, or they left it on for too long. Don't do either and you won't get such injuries. 

My website gives instructions as to how to use the tool to teach the recall. After that basic work is done, the cars would be used as just another distraction in proofing the recall. 

Whatever you do, don't just hit the button when he lunges at passing cars. There's a good chance that you'll make the problem worse.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> IMO, an E-collar is over the top.


Knowing what you know about Ecollars, I'd agree that, FOR YOU, it's over the top. For anyone who can read and following simple instructions, it's a good way to go. 



Jag said:


> I also feel just buying one and reading internet directions with an E-collar can be a huge mistake. I know for some people who have a vested interest in a certain website feel it's a great option. I don't.


Given your past comments I'd bet the farm that you're talking about me and my website. Pretty rude of you to take such a gratuitous cheap shot, when I'm not even in the discussion. 

Quite a few people who DO NOT HAVE A VESTED INTEREST think that _"it IS a great option."_ Here's what one of them wrote,


> It is because of you * and your website * that my dog enjoys off-leash hiking with me and more freedom in general. The e-collar came into my life late, but I'm very happy to have this tool and so is my best friend, Gunther.


And another wrote this,


> I have a 5 month old German Shepherd I named Sherlock. * A couple of weeks ago I started reading your site and decided to use an ecollar as my primary training device. * ... He did not have any type of obedience training at all, so he's always been on the stubborn side.
> 
> After finding his working level, the results have been amazing. By the end of the session he was "velcro'd" to my leg ...
> 
> ...


There are more ... 

Some people are incapable of learning how to do something by reading about it. Assuming that's the case with everyone, is a mistake.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> Knowing what you know about Ecollars, I'd agree that, FOR YOU, it's over the top. For anyone who can read and following simple instructions, it's a good way to go.
> 
> Yet you don't have a clue what I know about E-collars! Talk about being rude by taking gratuitous cheap shots.. which you've done over and over. Why you can't seem to handle someone who disagrees with you without taking it as some sort of 'attack' is puzzling. I thought that cops had to have communication skills and thicker skin? Your implication that I can't read and follow simple instructions is beyond insulting. There are posts here about people using E-collars incorrectly, as well as putting them on puppies. Yet, you don't get into those conversations. You also have people who can't tell the difference between play and aggression or protectiveness and fearful behaviors. Yet you think it's a good idea to have those people use internet instructions to use an E-collar? How do you evaluate a dog when you aren't there and can't see it? You want to boil this down to an anti-E-collar issue. That's never been the issue from my POV. Trying to make it into that isn't going to change the fact that it's not.
> 
> ...


I, myself, will go by what my trainer says as for the need for an E-collar down the road and the instruction on how to use it. NOT because I "can't read and follow simple instructions" but because that's what I feel a trainer is for. To assess the dog and to help give instructions on training the dog using a wide variety of tools based on the individual dog and the goals for the dog. I honestly can't see what your issue with that is.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

In the following post my ORIGINAL comments are in BLACK. Jag's response to them are in RED and my response to Jag are in BLUE 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Knowing what you know about Ecollars, I'd agree that, FOR YOU, it's over the top. For anyone who can read and following simple instructions, it's a good way to go. 

Jag responds: Yet you don't have a clue what I know about E-collars! 

Lou responds: I know what you've written about them and it's so far off the mark that it's accurately characterized as myth and misconception. You've spouted just about every lie that's told about them by those who oppose their use. 

Jag responds: Talk about being rude by taking gratuitous cheap shots.. which you've done over and over. 

Lou responds: You opened the door. When you throw a punch, expect MANY to come back your way You seem not to like it. I suggest that you don't start it. 

Jag responds: Why you can't seem to handle someone who disagrees with you without taking it as some sort of 'attack' is puzzling. 

Lou responds: Your _"vested interested"_ comment WAS AIMED DIRECTLY AT ME PERSONALLY. You could have made your point without the insult, but YOU CHOSE not to. It's a shame that you are unable to tell the difference between talking about a tool or a method and talking about a person. 

Jag responds: I thought that cops had to have communication skills and thicker skin? 

Lou responds: What part of *retired * do you not understand? When I was working I took all sorts of insults from all sorts of scum, without responding. Now that I'm retired (or when I was off-duty) there's no such requirement. And so when someone starts up with me, as you continually do, I'll respond in kind. If you don't like it, again, I'll again suggest that you not start it. 

Jag responds: There are posts here about people using E-collars incorrectly, as well as putting them on puppies. Yet, you don't get into those conversations. 

Lou responds: Conveniently you forget that _"there are posts her about people using [EVERY TOOL UNDER THE SUN] incorrectly."_ I take part in conversations that 1. I see. 2. That interest me. Your statement that _" don't get into those conversations" IS WRONG. I've taken part in MANY of them. 

Jag responds: You also have people who can't tell the difference between play and aggression or protectiveness and fearful behaviors. Yet you think it's a good idea to have those people use internet instructions to use an E-collar? 

Lou responds: Yep. I really don't care if a dog is biting someone because he's playing, being aggressive or being protective. The fact is that NO ONE on the planet can tell with 100% certainty which is at work every second of a dog's life. That FACT will not stop lots of people from pretending that they can though. And so when people do this, they're guessing. It may be an educated guess, but it's still a guess. If they guess wrong, then their solution will likely be wrong as well. Instead of playing games like this, I stop the behavior. Usually the dog's energy is redirected onto something that's incompatible with the biting. Somehow those who have actually USED my methods have a different opinion about them than you do, and you've ONLY READ about a few of them. AND you fail to take into account that I use many other tools besides the Ecollar. 

Jag responds: How do you evaluate a dog when you aren't there and can't see it? 

Lou responds: I don't need to. And, in reality, neither does anyone else. I know a behaviorist who does a two−hour−long history before she even starts training a dog. Of course, she's billing the owner during that history. A MEDICAL DOCTOR doing a history of a 30 year old human doesn't spend that much time doing a history and he's dealing with life and death! There are only so many things that a dog can do and so many reasons that he does them. 

Jag responds: You want to boil this down to an anti-E-collar issue. That's never been the issue from my POV. 

Lou responds: Your statement, "IMO, an E-collar is over the top." says that the Ecollar IS "the issue." 

Given your past comments I'd bet the farm that you're talking about me and my website. Pretty rude of you to take such a gratuitous cheap shot, when I'm not even in the discussion. 

Quite a few people who DO NOT HAVE A VESTED INTEREST think that "it IS a great option." 

Jag responds: I never said it wasn't a great option. I said it's not the ONLY option. 

Lou responds: I didn't see anyone write that it WAS "the ONLY option." Can you direct us to such a statement? You did write "IMO, an E-collar is over the top." Somehow I missed you say that the Ecollar was not the only option. Can you show us that statement please? 

Some people are incapable of learning how to do something by reading about it. Assuming that's the case with everyone, is a mistake.

Jag responds: Again, you're skirting calling me stupid or unable to read. 

Lou responds: I don't "skirt" such things. If I WERE to say those things, it would look like this, "Jag, you're stupid and unable to read." See the difference? 

Jag responds: To add insult to injury, you're basically accusing me of saying everyone is too stupid to read. 

Lou responds: You're "injured" by my comments? ROFL. 

Jag responds: However, there are people out there that do have issues with interpreting their dog's behavior. Speaking of the dog and handler's best interest, an in person trainer would probably be the best thing for them both. NOT because of lack of intelligence, but a lack of experience or simply needing a trained eye. 

Lou responds: People who have difficulty "interpreting their dog's behavior" have that problem no matter what tool or method they use. If this was JUST about you suggesting that they seek out a trainer, you could have said so without any reference to the Ecollar, to my website, or to me. Instead, you went for the cheap shot. I have no trouble with someone going to a trainer, for some, it's the best solution. But it's not the only solution. If the trainer isn't competent, it's a waste of time and money. _


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Enough of trying to out-argue one-another. Nether is listening, just trying to discredit the other person. This is back and forth sniping and attacking, not discussing.

Unfortunate that a thread that could have been educational ends up closed.


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