# Please help with advice - EXTREME fearful biting behavior



## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Hi,

First of all, let me apologize in advance for the length of this post. I just want to try and give enough information about myself, my dog and the situation to hopefully elicit some learned advice from you experienced and very kind folks.

My name is Bill. I live in North Barrington, in a house in a semi-rural area, on about an acre of wooded land. (No fences in this neighborhood). I have had dogs all through my life, and as an adult, I agreed to "foster" a GSD mix from the shelter I was working at, he ended up being my best friend for an astonishing 17.5 years. He was fearful at snappy/growly at first, but quickly became very socialized with humans. Then, I "inherited" my mom's GSD-Husky mix when she had to go into a care facility. This dog was honestly the sweetest animal I have ever known, never showed any aggression or even growled at anything the entire time I was with her. She recently passed away just past her 13th birthday (approx.). 

I also have a pet pigeon that I found in the park when I lived in Chicago. She is a Utility King pigeon, which is sort of like a white lab mouse in that she cannot survive in the wild. Someone had left her in a box on a park bench, and she had gotten out of the box and was just sitting, trembling on the box. To be honest, at first I thought she was a chicken, because I had never seen a pigeon that big. Anyway, that was 7.5 years ago. Pigeons mate for life, and she has decided I am her "mate." She stays on my desk all day in a repurposed cat bed (I work from home), and follows me everywhere. She is never caged, she has free run of the house. None of the dogs we have had have ever had a problem with her, they seemed to intuitively grasp she is part of the "pack," even though they loved to chase all the wildlife here outdoors.

Lastly, I am married and my wife is doing her medical residency in Kentucky right now. We see each other about once a month. While she has been in Kentucky, she adopted a dog about to be euthanized at a local shelter. He is an 8 year old "lab mix" very friendly, loves all people and dogs (and pigeon) --like traditional labs.

So, after the Husky mix passed away, about one month ago I adopted a dog from a shelter here. He was listed as a "GSD mix," he looks like a GSD, but is very slight compared to a "regular" sized GSD. He was about 62 emaciated pounds when I got him, now he is closer to 70. The shelter had no information about him whatsoever. He was brought in by the police as a stray. He is estimated to be 3-4 years old. The only item on his sheet was "NO KIDS" in large red letters, but no explanation. He had been at the shelter only about 10 or 11 days, and it was clear to me he was not doing well in that environment. He was not wagging and jumping to greet people walking past his kennel, he was just kind of sitting in the back looking down. 

I walked him on two separate days and he seemed alert and guardedly friendly. He was VERY shy of hands, if I extended a hand to pet him, he would cower and wince like he was expecting a blow. I kind of held back and let him come to me at his own pace. Also, I did notice he was drooling quite a bit, but the shelter volunteer told me that was because he was excited and nervous. Later I discovered that his right upper canine tooth is broken off just above the gum line. (As part of the adoption contract, the shelter will pay for their vet clinic to do an extraction. I will get to that part later, but for the time being he is taking light pain meds even though showing no sign of swelling or discomfort at all and enjoys chewing with great gusto.) Because of the missing canine, his upper lip often gets caught awkwardly, which causes the drooling.

After I adopted him, the shelter kept him to send to their vet hospital the next day to be neutered and to get his full battery of vaccinations. I was told to call the hospital around noon and they would give me a time to pick him up after his surgery. The vet doing the surgery called me around 8:30 and asked me if I was aware he was "extremely aggressive." I said no, I had no idea. She said that when they were getting him ready for his surgery, she "tried to take her face off, as in 'seriously', not a warning." She asked me if I wanted them to just send him back to the shelter, because she thought he was a "dangerous animal." I replied that I would try to work with him, and since, for the time being at least, I live alone with no other people or dogs and no small children, I could give him plenty of time, and, depending on how things develop, work with a trainer on socialization down the line. 

I brought him home, he was in a drug haze, I had prepared a metal wire crate in the bedroom for him, he was fine in it the first night. He showed no aggression toward me at all. I gave him the name "Wheelie."

Since that had gone well, I let him have the run of the bedroom the next day, with his crate to return to if he needed or wished. I still did not even know if he was housebroken at this time. At night, he did not want to go back into his crate, but wanted to sleep on the bed with me. 

(As an aside, I know that some people believe that dogs should not sleep on the human bed, it confuses the idea of who is in charge of the pack, etc. Personally, all of my dogs have been allowed to sleep on the bed with me and then, after I was married, me and my wife. We have never had any difficulties from this, the dogs usually lean against our legs, or sleep on the foot of the bed.)

I allowed him to sleep on the bed, and he huddled against me the entire night. He seemed to bond very quickly, to the point where he does not want me out of his sight, even when I go into the bathroom. If I do close a door, he is fine, does not whine or scratch, just waits on the other side of the door. 

He was, and is, exceptionally interested in the pigeon, but he has displayed no aggression toward her. He wants to get close to examine her, but I do not let him, and she puffs up and threatens him with wing slaps if he gets too close. 

Two other items of note: he appears to be housebroken, he had one accident day 2, and then, a few days later I had not let him out for awhile to pee, and he cocked his leg on our bookcase. I was surprised, and exclaimed --but did not shout or scream or bellow in any way -- "NO!" When I did, he immediately stopped and fell to his belly and crouched into a ball and winced. Right away, I took him outside and praised him for peeing when he finally did. He has not had any other accidents, but another time when I sharply said "No!" to him, he collapsed again into the quivering ball. It is very sad to see and makes me really wish I could go back in time and materialize right when whoever abused him was about to do so, but that is my own hang up. 

The other thing that he is extremely, violently carsick. It appears he is more afraid of the car that actually a victim of motion sickness. Twice I have taken him in the car, once to try and show him good places are gone to in the car, and another time to the vet for his tooth, and both times he was very agitated just getting in the car, and then continued to get more and more agitated until he vomited numerous times. Seven times on the trip to and from the vet. Again, because he did not react that way when I initially brought him home form his surgery, I suspect it is a mix of fear and motion issues. I got Benadryl and was going to begin just having him sit in the car, going nowhere, then around the block, etc. working our way up to trips to drive thru windows for doggie hamburgers, but the other events have kind of put that on hold.

We have neighbors who have a partially fenced area in their yard that they let their dogs out in, they have an older Chesapeake Bay Retriever which is very old and immobile and incontinent and also one about 3-4 years old which is very healthy and active and about 125 lbs. Wheelie had met this dog, Marley, out walking on leash (I have a 6ft lead and a harness) and he loved the dog. He wanted to play very badly, doing play bows and stop and start running, etc. (In may ways, with dogs, I thought he was like an unsocialized puppy that just wants to platy all the time). One day a little over a week ago, I was walking and the neighbor lady, Maud, who walks Marley was out in the yard with him and also her husband, who was grilling. Because Wheelie loves Marley so much, when I take him out, if he thinks Marley is outside in the yard, he will not do any business, just looks for him. So, she asked me to bring Wheelie into the yard, since Marley used to play with the older dog and now misses that he cannot play any longer. I brought him into the yard and he and Marley played for about 15 minutes, they played with a ball, "keep away" from each other, "chase" taking turns chasing each other, the usual doggie play games. Wheelie is exceptionally fast but did not seem to be trying to be dominant all the time. He seems to like Maud because she gives him treats and he greeted and was briefly petted by Ken. 

Then when we were getting ready to go, I had put clipped Wheelie's leash back on his harness, and he was running around the back yard, and he started to pee on a new tree Ken had planted, and all three of us yelled "No!" not bellow, just a surprised No! And Wheelie cowered and was slinking away. Ken stepped on his leash to keep him from running, and walked into his space looking down at him with his arms raised. Both Maud and I told him not to do that, because Wheelie had turned to face him, stock still with his tail curled underneath his legs. They locked eyes, and then the moment was over. Wheelie then froze and stared at Ken and then leapt at him, trying to bite him, apparently in the throat. Ken was wearing a short sleeve shirt and it had two large holes in the sleeve from Wheelie almost getting him. 

Then, a few days later, my neighbor on the other side, John, was out. He likes to always come over and talk, he likes his tipple too, so usually a little in the bag. He was definitely on this occasion. He likes Wheelie, and Wheelie has always been indifferently friendly toward him. He is one of those people who (foolishly) "pets" dogs by grabbing their head and shaking it and hard patting on the head. He started doing that to Wheelie, and I asked him to stop. After a bit he did. I was holding Wheelie, who had not tried to get away or shown any emotion while that "petting" was going on, even though I was backing away and John was following us. Then Wheelie looked up at John and did that same freeze and thousand yard stare at him. I told John to back away quickly, and I grabbed as much of Wheelie's leash as I could and he leapt in the air, snarling, trying to go for John's throat. Because I had choked up on the leash at the last moment, he fell short of any contact, but he meant it.

Both of those incidents, immediately after I gave Wheelie strong "No!" correction, which resulted in him cowering and cringing.

My wife was coming into town this Wednesday evening, bringing her dog Snow, she was going on a flight to WA where she has accepted a job and we will be moving sometime this autumn. Just had to fly there for one day for licensing and credentialing. Needless to say, she was a little concerned after I told her about these two incidents. She arrived very late, around 1 am. I thought it would be best if Wheelie and Snow met outside the house for the first time, so I brought him out on lead to meet her first, then she was going to let Snow out of the car. 

I was relaxed with the lead, she was calm and speaking softly to him, as was I. He looked at her for a few seconds, then did that freeze and lunged for her, but I held him back. She was afraid--correctly--so that evening she slept with Snow in our bedroom and I stayed with Wheelie in the guest bedroom. 

She left the next morning. Snow and Wheelie had been apart, but now we left them together, since they seemed to be getting along quite well. This was Thursday. They were both fine, Wheelie wanted to play with Snow more than Snow did, Snow growled at him when he did not want to be bother, and Wheelie seemed to understand and leave him alone. 

When discussing what to do, we had talked about buying a muzzle, so hopefully Wheelie could be around my wife and perhaps get a bit acclimated. So, Friday night (last night) after I picked her up at the airport, she came home and I put the muzzle on him (I had put it on him earlier in the evening, giving him praise so he would not associate the muzzle with her). She was sitting on the bed in the bedroom, and he came running into the bedroom and jumped up on the bed, wagging. She was still nervous and asked me to have him give her space on the bed. As I was coming to get him, he did the same freeze thing, and went for her. She jumped up and he was trying to bite her through the muzzle. She was wearing a skirt and tights, and he managed to leave two toothmarks on her upper thigh, one just a depression and the other like a blood blister.

Again, we slept in different rooms with the dogs. This morning, we went to breakfast, after a long walk with the dogs together, where Wheelie did not pay attention to her, but she did not get close to him either. When we got back from breakfast, we found Snow bleeding from multiple bites on his head, ears and neck. We took him to my vet, who agreed to see him this afternoon without an appointment, and they did $200 worth of work, none of the bites were deep, but that had to shave parts of his head and neck and glue the wounds closed, as well as his ears have severe hemotomas from years of neglect before my wife adopted him, both ears had surgery after she got him, the hematomas were bleeding as well. 

In retrospect, it was certainly foolish to leave them alone together, but he had never shown any aggression toward any other dog, and had been with Snow for almost three days, getting along fine.

After we returned from the vet, I moved Wheelie to the basement, which is the size of our house, partially finished. The W/D is here, storage, a queen size bed, several dog beds, etc. I put his food down there, and some toys and played with him for awhile. He is very sweet and gentle and playful with me, but he is a clear danger to other people and dogs. I do not know if my wife will ever be able to trust him again. The bite of her was bad, but what he did to her dog was worse in her eyes. 

Thus, I need some advice from you all. I do not know what to do at all. I do not want to fail this dog like people have in the past. The shelter of course will take him back, but a) he does not do well in that environment, and b) with serious "biter" on his record, I don't think he would ever get adopted, and if he did, someone would probably just mistreat him more. Thus, he would either have to spend the rest of his life miserable in a shelter kennel surrounded by barking dogs that make him nervous, with no hope of being adopted, or probably put down at some point as "unadoptable."

I desperately do not want that fate for him. He really is a sweet, good, intelligent dog that wants very much to please. But right now, he cannot be trusted at all around humans or dogs. 

I have read many of the posts on this thread, about other people with "fearful" or "aggression issues" dogs. As I am sure probably everyone says, I do not feel like my exact situation has been discussed in such a way that I can take that advice and apply it to this situation. I am asking for any and all advice, comments, suggestions, etc. I really want what is best for this poor doggie, but also need to keep my family and other people and animals safe. 

If you have read this far, I thank you very much and again apologize for such a long post. Thanks in advance, too, for your help.

Bill B.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I read everything but I like to read 

I don't have much advice but to keep him away from everyone. I have a dog like that though he doesn't bite, just lunges and barks so I have an idea what's involved and it's not easy. 

You were able to build the bond with him and your wife can too, it will take time and in the meanwhile around her he's on leash and with the muzzle. 

Keep in mind that every episode like this builds a habit so it will be that much harder to break so your goal now is no episodes. 

You need a trainer, someone has to show you in person how to work with him, there are too many subtleties. 
Finding a good trainer isn't easy and I feel for what you're about to go through. 

In the meanwhile leash and muzzle always. Your goal is no episodes.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

A few more notes on how to avoid the episodes. First of all, I'd use a collar. Controlling a dog in the zone on a harness isn't easy. I use a prong but you have a dog who cowers from your loud voice so I'm not sure a prong is the way to go, maybe someone else can help on this. 

And any time he's around a person or a dog (which is always leashed and muzzled, even around your wife) you watch him for signs he's about to flip out. There are always signs and it seems like you're able to predict his flip outs. So when you first notice something wrong, BEFORE he gets worked up (because he doesn't see or hear anything when he does) distract him. Go the other way, make some noise, tell him to sit, call his name (and if he turns his head praise like crazy and give him a thousand treats because that's huge that he turned to you in a moment like this and this is what you want, being able to get him to focus on you), anything to get his mind off it. 

Everything else a trainer will show you.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

oh bill, well...first let me say i'm so sorry all this is happening.

then i need to say the following. first clue was when the vet who neutered him asked if you knew he was aggressive. this should have alerted you to the fact that if you still wanted to adopt him, he would require ALOT of management of his environment. then you had several more warnings that you could not trust him and you still didn't manage his environment well enough and he harmed your wife's dog. one thing you really must do from this instant on is COMPLETELY manage his environment. i have a boy who requires that, and it's not easy. you sort of do have a situation where it might be possible for you (no kids, in particular), to keep him. it is clear tho, from your description of events, that the bottom line is that you will never be able to completely trust him and he will require a lifetime of managing his environment (never letting him in a situation where he could get himself into trouble with his aggression). that means no playing with other dogs, protect the bird from him, no exposing him to other people without a muzzle on. i know you already know where you made some mistakes, but regardless...dogs like this guy are very hard to manage, it sounds like he's had a really hard time of it. perhaps in time (lots of time), things will get better and that's surely worth a try since you do have a situation condusive to giving it a bit more time, and he is already attached and bonding to you. but ultimately, i think you have to be ready to make the decision nobody wants to make, if that becomes necessary (because, for instance, you find you are not willing to take on the responsibility of completely managing his environment for his entire life), but now that you have brought him into your life, it's not fair to him to either return him to the shelter, where he will surely not meet a good end, and alone at that...or to rehome him somewhere else where he will not meet a good end. of course, it goes without saying that you could involve a behaviorist and/or a good, positive motivation trainer. you've exposed him to a little bit too much too soon, he's shown you what he's capable of, you just MUST manage that environment COMPLETELY. it can be done, but it requires a certain kind of lifestyle (some would say a certain kind of no-lifestyle, lol), and a huge commitment and love for the dog. if you find that you cannot commit to that, please be there for him when it's time for him to go. i say all this with the utmost respect for what you've done for this boy and alot of sadness for what he's already endured in his lifetime. whatever you decide, i wish you strength. take care.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

And yes, he can never be trusted again. 
So yeah, it comes down to how much inconvenience you're ready to go through. Having a dog like this impairs your life.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

bill you will get more replies and opinions i'm sure, traffic on the board is slower on the weekends.

again, take care.


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Thanks, for your replies. I want to remain as accessible as possible, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. 

I really just want to do the best thing for Wheelie. I have loved all my dogs--I love all animals--and "inconvenience" to me is no reason to abandon or give up on an animal. 

Right now, I honestly do not know if we as a family--me, my wife, Snow, Wheelie and Sophie the pigeon--will be able to function together after what has transpired. But I am committed to trying as hard as I can to work it out for him--he did not deserve whatever happened to him, and he certainly does not deserve more unhappiness. If he cannot ultimately live here with me, I will certainly do whatever it takes to make sure he has a safe place to go and live out the rest of his life. 

At this point, euthanasia is not even on the table. Perhaps that is overly naive of me, but I am hopeful that if he cannot live with me, some other arrangement--that is good and healthy for him where he can be happy--can be found. I absolutely would not let him go back to a shelter environment where he would either be adopted out to someone who could inflict even more damage on him, or sentenced to a life of living **** in a kennel. Yes, perhaps euthanasia would be preferable to either of those two options, but I like to think we are a long way from there. For me, time, effort, money are all worthwhile expenditures to make Wheelie's story have a happy ending for him.

Bill B.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Wow. What a tough situation. First, you have done a wonderful thing giving this dog a home. Giving him a chance, not many people would have done that. He is a gorgeous dog and it's obvious you adore him. 

Now for the hard part. You have two choices. Spend the money on an animal behaviorist and a VERY experienced trainer that deals with fear aggressive dogs. Or, second, euthanize him. 

You and your wife are just starting your life together, maybe there will be children, maybe moves into a neighborhood, who knows where your wife's career will take you. 

Personally, I would not ever trust this dog. I would euthanize him. I am really sorry that's my advice, but I would not be able to manage the dog in a way that's safe and humane for my family. 

This dog has demons, as unfair as it is, that you won't fix. You may be able, with lots of money, to get him to a more manageable place, but he will always be a very strict management case. 

Dogs are supposed to bring us joy. This dog will be more fear and management on your part than joy in sharing your time together. 

Again, I am so sorry. You did a great thing. This dog is lucky to have found such a kind soul.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i totally understand what you're saying Bill, but (if i may say so, again, with the utmost respect for you and what you've done/are willing to do for this dog), it will be very, very difficult to find safe placement him. i only hope that if it does come to that (even tho you're a long way from there now), you'll be there for him under those circumstances as well. lots of good info and experienced people here, hope more people chime in as the weekend comes to a close.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I put a young dog to sleep years ago. The dog wasn't "right." The vet wholeheartedly supported the decision. I agonized for weeks. It came down to what was best for the dog and his quality of life. I was there for this rescued stray at the end.....it was the best I could do.

Your wife is scared of the dog with good reason. Her emotional well being might be more important than 'saving' a dog. 

I wish you the very best whatever happens. Please ensure this dog doesn't connect with a person. If he goes for the throat he could kill someone.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You sound like a very interesting kind man . 
This dog is going to be very difficult , huge risk. That is the reality. 

I mean when the vet says 
"The vet doing the surgery called me around 8:30 and asked me if I was aware he was "extremely aggressive." I said no, I had no idea. She said that when they were getting him ready for his surgery, she "tried to take her face off, as in 'seriously', not a warning." 

then a day or two later , because he had not been aggressive , you (quote) " let him have the run of the bedroom the next day, with his crate to return to if he needed or wished................ At night, he did not want to go back into his crate, but wanted to sleep on the bed with me. 
I allowed him to sleep on the bed, and he huddled against me the entire night"

Oh my how lucky you were . You did not know anything about the dog . The vet had warned you.
The dog could have ripped your ear, your scalp , with so much as a sneeze or turn in the bed . You could have been pinned or bitten had you gotten out of bed to use the facilities .
Far far too much freedom.
The same to be said about meeting with the neighbours in three separate encounters, Maud and Ken and John -- you saw the potential violent reaction the dog could produce.
Then to introduce the dog to your wife - another bad experience , and the too hasty freedom with her dog Snow , which was injured from some nasty bites inflicted on it .

When you don't know a dog you have to be cautious and take your time . 

I honestly think this dog is out of your league in the ability to manage it so that no harm comes to anyone of any animal.

I don't think the dog can be rehabilitated --- you don't know if it has a past bite history and someone dumped the dog , abdicating their responsibility .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Bill said "At this point, euthanasia is not even on the table. Perhaps that is overly naive of me,"

This could be totally out of your hands . The dog may/will bite . You have had 4 warnings in a very short frame of time . 
Should it come to a bite , which will be serious , even the VET could not speak up on your behalf as they had given you warning about the dog . 
If it went to court , the Vet , not even the neighbours could say that to their knowledge it was an accident , not normal behaviour for the dog . You would be in trouble for harboring a dangerous animal without proper control or precautions. You could loose everything , and I am not talking about possessions or finances .

If you were to sell the dog I think the law can reach backwards and include you in charges if the person you sold the dog to was negligent in the extraordinary care needed to manage this dog .


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Wow Bill, sounds like you are tying your best. And that you care about this dogs life. 

I would get a pet behaviorist as soon as possible. Tomorrow! Hook up with a trainer too, so you can get two opinions at least, go for a another trainer if you think it fits better, and for three opinions on the dog. 

What i concerns me about the dog is that it sounds like he goes in for quite the bite.. Not a warning bite.. What kind of muzzle are you using? 

Keep him on leash at all times with a muzzle when anyone else is around. No bed, no couch, etc. Make sure he gets plenty of exercise and mind stimulation. 

Every time he is about to bite, he freezes up and stares at them. You have to be the interrupter to that train of thought in his head and what follows, if there is anyone who is going to be hurt, its going to have to be you- since he is your dog. How long does he stare at them and freeze before biting? Even a few seconds is enough for you to be quick in reaction time to be an interrupter. 
Sounds like he is trying to control his space, if he is fearful that would make sense too. 

But definitely get that trainer and behaviorist in as soon as you can! Hard core management for now! 

Good luck! And remember that you are giving this dog, what no one else would. Your are giving him another chance. If you have to be the one to make that hard decision on his life, remember that. Makes you wonder what this poor dog wen't through, what kind of poor genetics he has too.. Poor kiddo


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

bill i know you came here for advice and opinions and you are getting good responses from some very experienced people so far. please be careful and ever more watchful with Wheelie until you formulate a plan that is safe for everyone.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I am going to recommend a GSD club in Hanover Park, IL. You can call there and ask for Vince. They will evaluate and help if they can. They are good people and they know GSD's. By the way welcome to the board. I don't live to far from you at all


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Though I haven't been in your situation and I can't say for sure what I'd do I doubt I'd euthanize. I'd do my best to manage and work with him though never trusting him and always on guard and see how it goes. 
However, if this isn't what you're willing to put up with (and it's a lot of work and inconvenience and almost no fun) then I'd euthanize. Rehoming isn't an option. No one wants and only a few people know how to manage one. And they're not looking for a project like this. 
So unfortunately it's now your problem.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

gosh bill I was up half the night thinking about your situation. rehoming is not a good option, it's way too easy for dogs like this to meet a bad ending. there are "bundlers" in our area who sell to research and fighters. these are exactly the kinds of dogs they look for. they recruit women and children to pose as "families", they have very good, well thought out stories. please be very careful and if you decide that it's not in your family's best interest to keep him, just PLEASE do the right thing. no matter how hard or unpleasant for you. unless, of course, you have a good friend you can thoroughly trust who has no kids or family, works from home, wants a dog who will likely require lifetime management...just kind of an impossible situation. I SO feel for you because I know how fast and easy it is to completely fall in love with these dogs. 

I also thought a lot about what carmspack said about how lucky you were to let him sleep with you so early in the game without incident. please be careful. in case you haven't figured it out yet, I am the worrier of the group, lolol...

thinking of you and your situation as I go about my day.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm sorry you're facing this situation, Bill. I completely understand how you feel about this dog, and I'd feel the same way. I would probably choose to keep him, if I was in your shoes. But I also understand that it might be impossible, under the circumstances. As a wife, and coming into a home where my DH already had a dog of his own, I know that this is a rocky road when the dog has issues. If you can come to terms with the fact that you can never let your guard down with this dog, then you could be very happy that you decided to stay with him for the long haul. But things could really spiral downhill fast if you forget what he's capable of. This is a tough decision to make, and it really depends on how much micromanaging you want to do. Good luck with everything, this is truly between a rock and a hard place.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Bill B., what a kind soul you are for opening your heart and home to Wheelie (and all the other animals you have brought in over the years). You are in one of those situations that just doesn't provide easy (or often happy) answers.

In my experience the "No Kids" on his shelter paperwork was indicative of the shelter seeing behaviors that were troubling. But, as is often the case, they wanted to give the dog every chance at a successful adoption. Perhaps he was loving and sweet with one employee who advocated for him. Perhaps they all saw signs of a dog that just wanted his own person. The "No Kids" was a middle ground. The shelter would have better served Wheelie if they had acted on their own concerns and euthanized him before he ever made it to the adoption floor. 

But they didn't and now you have him. And your heart is big enough to want the best for this dog, but your head is accepting that he might not be the best fit in your home. 

The cold truth is that there is no place to take him. Or, rather, the reputable places that would take him are so few and far between that they might as well not exist at all. The good trainers that would be willing to take him already have a dog just like Wheelie. Sanctuaries like Best Friends? Waiting lists that will effectively preclude him from ever getting in. So-called No Kill shelters? Won't take him because of his bite history. An open admission shelter would take him, maybe. But because of his history, he would never make it to the adoption floor.

You could advertise him as available to a good home. But he would be a very, very difficult dog to place responsibly. And the types of people who would be attracted to him because of his history are the very types who shouldn't get him. 

I see this play out a lot. I think, based on my experience, that you have two choices. Find a good, reputable trainer who has experience working with aggressive dogs. A behaviorist trainer who can address two different issues independently (training issues and the aggression). It will be expensive. It will take time and it will be a big commitment of your time and effort. And a huge commitment from your wife, who needs to commit her support in keeping Wheelie. 

Even with all that time, effort and money? You will most likely end up with a dog that can't be "fixed" or made safe. So you have to be okay with a goal of management rather than a goal of "All Better Now". That means that your life must change. The dogs will have to be managed as separate pets, with rotating access to you and your wife. And he might always need to be muzzled during his "people time". The pigeon is not going to be safe uncaged. Because my experience has been that all it takes is one time for a tragic accident to happen. A door you thought was closed is nosed open and Wheelie walks in and it is all over before you have even been able to comprehend that he is actually in the room. 

You have to be okay with all of that. As does your wife. Personally, I would euthanize him. His human aggression means that even his time with you (when it is his turn) will have to be managed. And so even that experience, which should be a time of peace and contentment for you all, is going to be weighted with worry and frustration. That isn't fair to him. Or to you. Or to your wife. Or your other pets, who were there before him and whose needs should take precedence over his because they were there first. 

I worked in an open admission shelter for years, and volunteered for even longer. I have been involved in rescue for years. Dogs that shouldn't be made available for adoption sometimes make it to the adoption floor. From the information you have shared, I think Wheelie is one of those dogs. I know it is a sad thing to consider. But sometimes the most humane, loving thing we can do is to let them go. At least he had the chance to sleep on a bed, to be given a name and to be mourned when he is gone. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I am thinking about you and your family as you wrestle with the decision.
Sheilah


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

people are so quick to suggest euthanasia for a dog thy haven't seen. maybe the handler Is the problem (bill, no disrespect. I suck myself as a handler, still learning and that's part of the reason I'm bringing it up) 
yes, I know, the vet. how many dogs on this board need to be muzzled at a vet?

I just think people should see the dog before condemning him.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I couldn't agree more with Sheilah's post.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

This dog will never be "happy" in any environment. It's not in his DNA. Fear aggression is not learned.

This dog is extremely dangerous & a tortured soul.

Put me in the euthanasia camp. There are so many nice, sane dogs in need of good homes sitting in rescue right now.

You can't fix this. Invest in a good basket muzzle, not one of the cheap nylon things from Petsmart.

Yes, a lot of dogs become defensive at the vet's. They snap, maybe even growl. They do not seriously try to rip someone's face off.

I've worked with far too many of these kind of dogs.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

zetti said:


> There are so many nice, sane dogs in need of good homes sitting in rescue right now.
> .


the most annoying comment, on the board and irl
who cares what dogs are out there? people are usually attached to the one they have. 

so when dogs get cancer, epi, dysplasia, whatever. why treat them? there are so many healthy ones in the shelter. 

I know a biter, bites family and handlers, so it's worst than here. I don't know, he looks pretty happy with all his demons 99% of the time.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

LOL lala, that's so true. But what a way to say it! 

The reality is, unless someone can make a complete commitment to a dog like this, then PTS is the better choice. At least the dog is in the arms of someone who loves him when he passes. There's too many people out there that would bring a worse end to a dog's life. There's also too many people out there that aren't signing up for a dog like this to be living anywhere near them, if he isn't managed correctly. It's a tough call, that only Bill can make.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> LOL lala, that's so true. But what a way to say it!
> 
> The reality is, unless someone can make a complete commitment to a dog like this, then PTS is the better choice. At least the dog is in the arms of someone who loves him when he passes. There's too many people out there that would bring a worse end to a dog's life. There's also too many people out there that aren't signing up for a dog like this to be living anywhere near them, if he isn't managed correctly. It's a tough call, that only Bill can make.


I agree. it's either lots of management or pts. not rehoming. so it's these 2 choices and I'm not arguing against that. it just seems that people are suggesting pts without even seeing the dog. 

I don't know, it always gets my hairs up. maybe I'm wrong and I don't know what I'd do. however, I know what my friends have done and I admire them. lots of money, time and effort.

I guess I like loyalty. besides, dogs are infinitely loyal to us.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, lala...most people that say PTS aren't going to be jumping at the chance to own a dog that can't be trusted and has a track record of biting people in the throat when given the opportunity to. That sounds reasonable, lol. They haven't bonded with the dog, so there's no loyalty there either. This is a special needs dog, temperamentally speaking.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sorry for 1000 posts. I keep thinking about this. what demons? everyone pounds away at the fact that dogs live in the moment. what demons can be torturing them? to be able to be mentally tortured you need to have self awareness, the ability to think and process things. and I don't know what else but I do know dogs don't have it. talk about antromorphizing. 

once in a blue they get scared where a stable dog wouldn't and that's that. and then they go on with life.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Well, lala...most people that say PTS aren't going to be jumping at the chance to own a dog that can't be trusted and has a track record of biting people in the throat when given the opportunity to. That sounds reasonable, lol. They haven't bonded with the dog, so there's no loyalty there either. This is a special needs dog, temperamentally speaking.


yes agree with all of it. I'm putting myself in op ' s shoes. I come on the board, write a long post about everything that's going on about a dog that I'm attached to and I get endless pts back even after I said I'm not interested in it 

I will try to shut up though it's never easy for me lol


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

No, don't shut up! I'm sure OP would be happy to know that there's people out there that think like he does, and would try to move Heaven and earth to keep a dog they love. But it's important to show how dedicated he HAS to be: to the very careful management, and what the likely outcome should be without that kind of commitment.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

lalachka said:


> yes agree with all of it. I'm putting myself in op ' s shoes. I come on the board, write a long post about everything that's going on about a dog that I'm attached to and I get endless pts back even after I said I'm not interested in it
> 
> I will try to shut up though it's never easy for me lol



Lala, I see your point. And I am trying to see the other side. I was typing my post as the OP typed theirs, he beat me to posting, about the "no PTS". 

OP, in the feeling of giving all possible outcomes, I give you a story. Axel. Axel was GSD I fostered. Before I picked him up, the veterinarian that was treating him told me he bit a technician. I asked for an honest opinion and she said she could not give one because the dog was not in a state to evaluate appropriately. I respected that. 

Axel tried to bite be as I put him in my car. Axel tried to take me down and I worked with him in front driveway. Axel tried to dominate me as I sat on the couch. I talked to the rescue. Told them I may be leaning towards PTS for this dog. They agreed to give me 1 week to really feel him out. I got a basket muzzle, which he lived in for 3 days. I needed to push this dog and see how far he would take it. 

That muzzle saved his life. It gave me the ability to work with him safely, to bond and to gain his trust. After 6 months of intense work, physical therapy, regular excersise and firm leadership and he was adopted into an amazing home. I still talk to them regularly. 

It can be done. But it all depends in where the aggression is coming from. Axels came from anxiety and pain. His back story is a mess. But we moved forward. He is not a dog without issues, but he is 100% manageable by retired grandparents. 

You and your wife need to have a good solid talk about expectations, feelings, goals and safety and come to a decision together. 

I wish you the best. I really do.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> No, don't shut up! I'm sure OP would be happy to know that there's people out there that think like he does, and would try to move Heaven and earth to keep a dog they love. But it's important to show how dedicated he HAS to be: to the very careful management, and what the likely outcome should be without that kind of commitment.


to that end sheila's (sit stay) post was really nice and detailed.

gsdsar I wasn't talking about you lol. I figured you didn't see it.
and what a story. I always like your posts and I loved this one.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I found a small GSD mix puppy once. I was driving down the street and I see a ball of fluff in the bushes by the railroad tracks. I pull a u turn and park in the middle of the road, put my blinkers on, and go investigate. I'm pretty dressed up and now in the bushes in the mud with this puppy. He was about 6 weeks old and obviously a victim of being dumped, since this was an industrial area, with no homes in sight. In all my years I never saw a more vicious dog. At 6 weeks this puppy was growling, snapping and just not wanting to be touched. It was very upsetting to say the least, what could make a tiny puppy this way? I was there quite a while trying to figure out how to get him without scaring him more and getting bit. A firetruck pulled up and asked if I was ok, told them the story and they moved on. I was pretty scratched up from the bushes and losing my patience but not leaving without that puppy. Finally I just took my very expensive sweater and threw it over him and grabbed him. He screamed, kicked, tried biting, but I just kept going talking to him softly. I get him in the car and he lays on the floor, refusing to acknowledge me whatsoever. I finally found someone I trusted to take the pup and work with him. It took that dog about 6 months to trust and act like a normal happy dog, lots of work and patience. He grew up to be a great dog, but I often wonder what could someone have done to him to make him that way? It is always sad to see dogs that way but a tiny baby like that was heartbreaking...


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

You guys are awesome for rescuing dogs like that, but I can't believe it even happens!

I guess over here is much smaller, and people can also be much crueler. Rather than abandon or attempt to rehome their unwanted pups, I have heard of people drowning them in the local river. 

On the upside, people also do drop them at the local RSPCA who try to rehome them, which isn't ideal, but better than what a pup would go through otherwise.

I can only imagine what someone must do to such a young dog to make it feel that way about humans. Animal abuse at its worst.


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Thank you again, to everyone who has taken the time to read and reply to this post. Your kindness and generosity is much appreciated.

I can tell I have not been on message boards in a long time, since I was puzzled trying to find the mysterious posts from "OP" that people were citing in their replies. : )

It is extraordinarily hard to think about euthanizing such a young, healthy (physically), beautiful dog. When I was reading the parts about him possibly only just now having a chance to "sleep on a bed, given an name and mourned when he is gone" I welled up with tears, maybe because it is still fairly recent that I lost my dog, or maybe just thinking of Wheelie, because he is--to me--extremely sweet and playful and docile and eager to please. It may be some combination of responding to even a small kindness and plain old dumb luck, but he has not attacked me, and has not even shown any signs of his fugue state coming on, even though we have had several "staring contests" that I did not let him win. 

The night after my wife arrived and he had bit her, he was isolated in the bedroom, and much later I went into the bedroom, he greeted my like any dog you would imagine would greet you when you return home after being gone all day, and when I laid down on the bed, he jumped up and laid next to me, and rolled on his back with his paws in the air, length wise, parallel to me, and then, after I scratched his chest and belly for a few minutes, he rolled over and rested his chin on my shoulder, sighed deeply and went to sleep. I probably should have been afraid that his muzzle was so close to my throat, and it is probably very fortunate that he did not suddenly decide to tear out my aorta, but I did not feel any menace from him at all, to be honest, I felt like he was very contented. Now, I am not (entirely) foolish, I know that whatever his mental condition is, he is not "choosing" to be aggressive, but is instead reacting to some past trauma, of which anything could suddenly trigger an episode, as, I believe, someone said, of me rolling over onto his tail or something if we were sleeping. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that --while everything is still an option at this point-- it is difficult for me to write him off as a totally lost cause, because he seems to seek out and enjoy human affection from at least one person, and if he can learn to feel that way about one person--who, admittedly, has not done anything "right" probably when it comes to dealing with his situation from a training/counseling perspective, then there exists that capacity inside him to move past that all-consuming fear and accept that at least one, for the time being, person can be trusted and loved and will take care of him and love him back. It might only be a spark, but sparks are also what big fires come from, and I am still of the mind that he deserves that chance, at least. 

Thanks again for all of your wisdom, I am taking each reply very seriously.

Best,

Bill B.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It sounds like this boy has bonded to you and feels "you are his"..I would look for a good behaviorist, trainer, gsd person in your area to get some insite/help.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just remember that you are not on some isolated island and you can't let your guard down . He may be okay with you for long periods and you either forget , or think there is a change and then , well, it only takes one second for something serious to happen which will impact on you heavily.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i understand exactly how you feel. the world is a better place because of people like you. be careful. 

i have one of those dogs who tolerates a very small group of people. different from you in that i've had him since he was 10 weeks old. he tolerates my husband, his vet tech, my niece and best friend (the last three always are armed with "cookies".) otherwise, nada. he is UNBELIEVABLY sweet with me. smart and gorgeous. he's going to turn 11 soon. i love him to the moon and back...but, i won't kid you, it's been a long 11 years, and a huge responsibility. and i'm retired, with no kids, and don't like to travel anyway. 

with rescue dogs i think you must plan for the worst, while hoping for (and working towards), the best. and, all the while, accepting the responsibility for protecting other people from the dog, and protecting the dog from doing anything that would take the euthanasia issue out of your hands. i surely wish you all kinds of well, as you go about this daunting task.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Hmm some people may find this to be a controversial subject.

Not that i have read the book, but i know someone who has, and thought it was quite insiteful.

"The Daily Coyote: A Story of Love, Survival, and Trust in the Wilds of Wyoming"
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Coyote-Story-Survival-Wyoming-ebook/dp/B001AO0GRW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408315810&sr=8-1&keywords=the+daily+coyote[/ame]

"A fascinating true tale: When city girl Shreve Stockton set out to ride her Vespa from San Francisco to New York, she never imagined she’d end up staying in Wyoming, falling in love with a trapper, and working as a ranch hand. Nor could she have forseen meeting Charlie, the orphaned coyote pup who made Stockton’s log cabin his home. In a world where coyotes are hunted as killers, Stockton and Charlie faced challenges—as well as joys—throughout their first year, each of which came with revelations about life, love, and the bond between humans and nature." 

I think even at some point, this lady separated with her bf to work on the bond between the coyote and her. Because at some point the coyote bit her, the coyote never bit her bf. I also dont agree with all of what she did or her training styles. ( I read some of it)

Not that i'm saying you should go that far or maybe you have to in order to keep this dog.. (not in the separating with your partner part!.. But the lifestyle change she does)

If your wife is fully on board with keeping this dog and managing him so that he can be given what life you can give him- i think you can do it. A lot of life changes, he wont be the type of dog you bring everywhere. You would probably have to keep him separated when people come over. But it could work. It's a life. If he brings you happiness, and you bring him happiness, and your wife.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I read your post, but not the whole thread. So please excuse if this has been said. Whether this dog has been severely abused, or is severely genetically flawed, or both, right now he is not right. 

He is about as not right as a dog can be. This is not a comfortable place for him to be. If you cannot say "No!" to this dog without a total shut down, and his response to most things is a full-out attack, then he is living a nightmare. 

The kind thing to do for this dog is to take him to the vet and have them calmly and humanely put him down. 

I am sorry, no one wants to here that. But GSDs that go for the throat have either been taught this or have a major wire crossed. 

Humans probably did fail this dog. You may be the only human that will be able to do right by him. And, I mean by putting him down, while you are there, to make him more comfortable. 

This dog is likely to do serious damage to someone. That will not make you or the dog feel better. His having to be quarantined, and then have court-ordered euthanasia will not make it any easier because he actually did do serious damage before you went ahead and euth'd him.

In big red letters they it said, "NO KIDS." It's a big deal. Kids are everywhere, and it really only takes seconds for a tragedy to happen. 

Using a muzzle everywhere for the rest of his life is no life, either. Having to lock the basement when you have guests. I'm sorry, this is a huge accident screaming to happen. 

It is sad. But I too don't think you are going to fix him. I think you can spend a lot of money trying to. And every day that goes by will make the decision that much harder. 

I'm sorry.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Selzer, how is he living a nightmare? Anthromorphizing just a little, no?


My post from before since you said you didn't read the thread



lalachka said:


> sorry for 1000 posts. I keep thinking about this. what demons? everyone pounds away at the fact that dogs live in the moment. what demons can be torturing them? to be able to be mentally tortured you need to have self awareness, the ability to think and process things. and I don't know what else but I do know dogs don't have it. talk about antromorphizing.
> 
> once in a blue they get scared where a stable dog wouldn't and that's that. and then they go on with life.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

He is living a nightmare because he is petrified of everything......can't be a pleasant life when you think you have to defend yourself at every turn.
I don't think there is anything heroic in trying to save a dog like this......that will not be a popular view but the dog is dangerous......common sense says it would be kinder to PTS.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Dogs may live in the moment but they can certainly flash back, when a bad or good trigger occurs. Mine get excited as we travel familiar roads to go to favorite parks and trails. A dog that cringes when a hand or voice is obviously reliving a bad experience. The possibilities of what may set Wheelie off are endless. I wish you the best Bill, but it's so scary to me.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sparra said:


> He is living a nightmare because he is petrified of everything......can't be a pleasant life when you think you have to defend yourself at every turn.
> I don't think there is anything heroic in trying to save a dog like this......that will not be a popular view but the dog is dangerous......common sense says it would be kinder to PTS.


I said I know a dog that's more extreme case than this one and I spend enough time every day around him to gauge how much of it is spent enjoying life. I also live with a dog that is scared of things, not to that extent but still. I also can see him biting if he lived with someone else. 

It's not about heroism, where did that come from? It's about being attached to a dog and going above and beyond. 
I'm not touring the shelters looking for the most extreme dog to save to feel heroic, I'm going the best I can for the dog I ended up with


Ksotto, about flashbacks. Yep, I'm sure for a few moments a day bad experiences happen for this dog. Anyone that ever has an aggressive dog always says the same line '99% of the time he's a perfect dog' 

I think 99% is a good quality of life


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

lalachka said:


> I think 99% is a good quality of life


99% of the time is a great percentage. Unless you or one of your pets happens to be involved in that remaining 1%.

I own a dog that can't be trusted with other dogs. He is 8 years old now and I have been living the whole "crate and rotate" life for just about 7 years now. Maybe a little less? It is stressful and time consuming. I can't imagine adding human aggression into that mix. 

The OP is in a very difficult spot. 
Sheilah


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sit said:


> 99% of the time is a great percentage. Unless you or one of your pets happens to be involved in that remaining 1%.
> 
> I own a dog that can't be trusted with other dogs. He is 8 years old now and I have been living the whole "crate and rotate" life for just about 7 years now. Maybe a little less? It is stressful and time consuming. I can't imagine adding human aggression into that mix.
> 
> ...


The 99% was about the quality of life of the dog not whether he's safe or not. They're never safe. 
But yeah, only people that can manage these dogs should own them and it's not always like that. But at the same time I can see it being tough for people to euth a dog they love for aggression. 

I just feel like the demons, tortured existence and all that stuff are just things people make up to make it sound like they're doing what's best for the dog. 

I like it when people are honest about their motives, that's all. Its fine to say you're just not willing to put up with the work involved and I wouldn't judge because it does impair your life significantly and puts you in a vulnerable position where you have a dog that will attack if you slip up on management. 
So yeah, people should decide whether they're ok with the liability and are ready for the work involved and for the consequences of a mistake. 

Once they commit everything that follows is their fault. Heavy burden and I dont judge anyone that decides to pts. I just like it when people are honest about it. 
And also, it'd be nice to see the dog before suggesting it to others. 
But there are no easy answers for these cases. I was just giving my point of view.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

99% good, is that an official number gathered by statistics or one that makes you feel good? I can't imagine the stress on any of the following; the marriage, the other dogs or pets in the house, the dog with issues being crated or kept in the basement away from others.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> 99% good, is that an official number gathered by statistics or one that makes you feel good? I can't imagine the stress on any of the following; the marriage, the other dogs or pets in the house, the dog with issues being crated or kept in the basement away from others.


I was talking about the dog. What does marriage have to do with it? And what statistics can there be?

My 99% is the number of hours in the day the dog is enjoying life. People are saying these dogs are mentally tortured and they have these demons and they are miserable. I'm saying that not only I have a few dogs around here that I watch but also every person that posts about their aggressive dogs lists their issues and then adds '99% of the time he's a perfect dog, but then a switch is flipped' 
So they don't lead a tortured existence from what I know.

ETA but as you pointed out and as I said, it takes a toll on their owners. It's a huge responsibility, both legally and morally and lots of inconvenience. So I don't knock anyone for pts. Just don't act like it's because the dog is suffering. He's not. You are. 
But IM NOT JUDGING


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I think solid percentages are supported by statistics. I would not pull numbers out of a hat as if they were fact. The kind of management this dog will require will certainly have an affect upon the household. He's already attacked the other dog, and Bill's wife. Having a normal pup in our household is sometimes stressful, and in reality she is an easy puppy. I just can't fathom the care this dog would require. I wish Bill and his wife the best, and hope all turns out well.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> I think solid percentages are supported by statistics. I would not pull numbers out of a hat as if they were fact. The kind of management this dog will require will certainly have an affect upon the household. He's already attacked the other dog, and Bill's wife. Having a normal pup in our household is sometimes stressful, and in reality she is an easy puppy. I just can't fathom the care this dog would require. I wish Bill and his wife the best, and hope all turns out well.


There are no statistics on the % of happiness in the dogs' lives. 
I explained my numbers but if you insist. 

Add up the seconds in the day that the dog bugs out. Divide that by the number of the seconds in the day. Keep in mind that not every day a dog will have episodes. 


Anyway, once again. It takes a huge amt of work, inconvenience and it comes with legal responsibility if anything happens. By all means people need to decide whether they're ready. Just don't say the dog is suffering and that's why you decided to pts. Be honest about the reasons.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think that the OP needs to see a professional and get an evaluation based on what they visually see, they will tell him what they recommend.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Chronic stress can change cortisol levels within the dog that actually causes physical problems, like trouble gaining and maintaining weight, looser stools. I battled it for over a year with my older female when I first had her. So it can be something that effects them without you knowing. 

I didn't read all that was said, but the first thing that I'd do in this case is talk with your wife and really just have a heart to heart with her. This animal attempted to hurt her badly and did manage to hurt her. He hurt her dog. I can tell you from experience living in a multiple dog household were we have to play the crate and rotate game with many of the dogs, it can be a pain even if it can be done. However when one of my dogs gets hurt by one of my roommate's dogs, there's usually a verbal fight and resentment toward the dogs involved for a day or two before we cool down and chalk it up to the dogs being dogs. If she was upset with what Wheelie did to Snow, it will make it harder for her to see the plight of him, especially since she also experienced the sharper end of his aggression. 

My roommate spent two months debating before he took in a known human aggressive, four year old Australian Shepherd. This dog had bitten him the first time he met the dog when he was working at a kennel. He was the result of neglectful owners who kept the dog in their yard or garage. Not out with family, not out with the other dog. He was a herding dog and nipped one of their children one day. They used forceful training with him and got nowhere. My roommate managed to find that dog who lived beneath the teeth, and he knew that no one else would take the dog on.

I was upset. I was extremely nervous. Here was a known biter that I had never met before and I was going to be living in close quarters with him. I am fairly good with dogs, and I am very able to make myself non-threatening. I learned how to do it when I volunteered at a shelter as a young girl. Dogs who are fearful tend to cling to me now when I am working. This dog wasn't fearful. This dog was basically a jerk. He was mad at everything, he reacted to everything. Thankfully, my scent was everywhere, he was food motivated and I took a very hands off approach to him. It also helps that my roommate and I aren't together so we have separate rooms lol.

It was not easy. He had to really make it clear what was okay and what was not. Even now with all the things that my roommate did to get control of Bodie, he is still not 100% trustworthy. We actually worked with a protection trainer so that we could teach him to warn before he went for someone's face. He gave no warning outside of a small shift in his eyes. The training taught him to bark and warn before he went for a bite. It gave us time to tell him to stop before he reacted. We have to keep watch around if we take him out, and while he is very VERY much better than he was, we cannot let our guard down. It makes it stressful to go out with him. Everyone wants to pet him too because he's a blue merle aussie. 

If you guys want to try, get professional help. Be certain that things change. Lots of obedience, strict rules, boundaries. He has to know that your wife is allowed to be with you, that her dog and the pigeon live there and he has to respect it. He doesn't have to like them, but he cannot try to hurt them and what he wants is not what happens. You really need somebody to come in and give you guys different tips and a plan to help countercondition him to reacting in that extreme when he is nervous. You have control. You dictate who can come along, and he should ignore/walk away from people you come across. I definitely would be sure to have a good basket muzzle and even if he doesn't like a crate, he should be crated so you can have time to relax with your wife. If you are moving somewhere that is more full of people, the stress and management will definitely isolate him and potentially you from the world around you. 

It is a lot of commitment. It is not an easy road. It could potentially be done, but you both have to be okay with this and you both have to agree. I told my roommate that I would try, and now its been six years that Bodie has lived with us. I love that dog now. He is one of my favorites that my roommate owns. He is still a stress at times. But that dog is a good dog, and I would never ask him to get rid of the dog. We both agreed if something happened to him, or Bodie bit another person without provocation, that's it, he's put down. However, things have worked out well for us. 

I don't think it is out of the box to think about euthanizing, but if you want to try for Wheelie, you really have to make certain everyone and everything around you is safe from him and you cannot let your guard down. You need professional help for this. Aggression is not something to take on without experience and knowledge behind you. I do wish you guys luck. I understand loving a dog and wanting to do the best for it. I have had to euthanize a young and otherwise healthy, nice dog, because we were the only home that he could stick in and every time we attempted to rehome him, he started to cycle downward bad and was hurting our dogs badly. Some days you have to think of the rest of the household and their safety first. 

Any way you cut it, you've given Wheelie more than anyone else has, and you should be very proud of what you have given him.


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Thanks again for all of the honest and heartfelt opinions. Like most real life issues, this one is very complex, for many of the reasons people have stated. There is me, there is my wife, there is our relationship (which is fine, but a dog that attacked her and "her" dog is certainly still an issue no matter what anyone says, especially two days on), our new home in rural WA, Snow, Sophie, other humans, other animals, and, of course, Wheelie. Not in any specific order, but just a list of all the moving parts. 

I certainly want the best for Wheelie, and am willing to see what we can work out with him. I certainly am cognizant of the very real danger he presently--and, possibly, will always-be to my family and to other individuals and animals. There are many reasons why people give up on dogs, I am in no position to judge, even if I sometimes do. However, there is, to me, at least, a vast difference between "inconvenience" and "danger." Having gone through two elderly dogs' gradual declines, I think I am pretty well versed in handling personal or family "inconvenience" for the overall love and care of a beloved family member. "Danger," however, is a very different thing entirely. There is a sobering realization in the difference between a senior dog having an potty accident in the house because one gets home late and your wife having her face bitten because you left a door open or a crate latch did not properly engage. 

With all that, I have paid close attention to everyone's comments. As many people have pointed out, this is a very difficult situation. My plan as of now is to have a long, in-person conversation with Wheelie's vet--the one who he tried to bite--she is also the liaison with the shelter. I am going to lay out all that has transpired thus far and solicit her feedback. Another person on this message board PMd me the contact information for a recommended trainer in the area. I am going to contact that individual as well, and repeat the process of telling the whole story and listen to that person's thoughts, too. Then I will try and process all of the information and figure out what is best for both Wheelie and me (which are not mutually exclusive) and come up with a plan at that time. I will keep you all informed too, for I feel like all of you have been incredibly generous with your time and expertise. Whether or not I proceed in one way or another, please know that I deeply appreciate all of your advice and thoughts. Again, not to be a broken record, but this is an incredibly difficult situation for not just me, but also my family and Wheelie. Knowing there are intelligent, caring, strongly-opinionated people out there who are willing to help me--a stranger--through this situation really makes me see some inherent good in human beings. 

Thanks,

Bill B.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

nbdyuknow said:


> Thanks again for all of the honest and heartfelt opinions. Like most real life issues, this one is very complex, for many of the reasons people have stated. There is me, there is my wife, there is our relationship (which is fine, but a dog that attacked her and "her" dog is certainly still an issue no matter what anyone says, especially two days on), our new home in rural WA, Snow, Sophie, other humans, other animals, and, of course, Wheelie. Not in any specific order, but just a list of all the moving parts.
> 
> I certainly want the best for Wheelie, and am willing to see what we can work out with him. I certainly am cognizant of the very real danger he presently--and, possibly, will always-be to my family and to other individuals and animals. There are many reasons why people give up on dogs, I am in no position to judge, even if I sometimes do. However, there is, to me, at least, a vast difference between "inconvenience" and "danger." Having gone through two elderly dogs' gradual declines, I think I am pretty well versed in handling personal or family "inconvenience" for the overall love and care of a beloved family member. "Danger," however, is a very different thing entirely. There is a sobering realization in the difference between a senior dog having an potty accident in the house because one gets home late and your wife having her face bitten because you left a door open or a crate latch did not properly engage.
> 
> ...


Do you have a vet of your own versus the one that he has seen? I think that maybe a visit to your own vet with caution and maybe have blood work done to rule out anything medical might be a good idea too. When I got my male GSD at the shelter he was very reactive and had no manners. When we went for his 10 day the vet at the shelter seen him and muzzled him, there really wasn't a reason for it and the techs didn't think so either. I have since been to a couple other vets that haven't even thought about muzzling him. I would shoot for three opinions, the vet that seen him, your vet or vet if your choice, and a trainer(the trainer will probably want to evaluate him and it will most likely be in an area that may cause stress) so it's important to make sure they know everything and maybe can suggest if a basket muzzle would be needed. Good Luck


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Do you have a vet of your own versus the one that he has seen? I think that maybe a visit to your own vet with caution and maybe have blood work done to rule out anything medical might be a good idea too.


Agree with visiting your own vet. The rescue's vet is naturally going to be at least nervous, and from his/her comments, probably fearful. Your dog will react to this, making the visit even more difficult then it already is. Be sure to explain the situation to your current vet's office when you set up the appointment and schedule at the least busy time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

excellent advise llombardo -- 

travelling with the dog is going to be difficult because the dog has extreme fear of the car , is that right Bill?
He will be coming off this anxiety which will wash over and affect his behaviour in clinic.

Could you have a vet come to your home? Explain the special circumstance , pay the premium for the time outside of the clinic hours?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> excellent advise llombardo --
> 
> travelling with the dog is going to be difficult because the dog has extreme fear of the car , is that right Bill?
> He will be coming off this anxiety which will wash over and affect his behaviour in clinic.
> ...


Thank you. I also know of a vet that is good with GSD's. Mine love him. He grew up with them and is familiar with the breed. The trainer might know of one that they can recommend to if needed.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Bill, you do need the opinion of another vet, I can already tell you what this one is going to say, she's already said it. I would be surprised if she didn't actually say "I told/warned you". 

Yes, there are some incredibly knowledgable and caring people here, in 2007-08 people here restored my faith in humanity. I try to pass that on. Take care.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

I haven't read through all the bickering so sorry if advice has been repeated. 

When the dog gets that look in his eyes he needs to be corrected immediately and Imo harshly. What is going on is he is fearful and he is trying to scare the threat away. He acted this way once and it worked. Now he is doing it more and more because it worked in the past. 

You don't correct a dog for being fearful per say but I'd absolutely correct a dog for being the aggressor. Dog can be afraid all it wants but it can't take things into its own hands like that. 

I would get a trainer who's experienced with shepherds to take a look. There's only so much words on a forum can describe. If he's fine around people/dogs most of the time but just has episodes then he doesn't sound too bad. Just needs fair but firm leadership.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gib_laut said:


> I haven't read through all the bickering so sorry if advice has been repeated.
> 
> When the dog gets that look in his eyes he needs to be corrected immediately and Imo harshly. What is going on is he is fearful and he is trying to scare the threat away. He acted this way once and it worked. Now he is doing it more and more because it worked in the past.
> 
> ...


If a correction is causing the dog to react to begin with as in this case, a further harsher correction could make things much worse.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

llombardo said:


> If a correction is causing the dog to react to begin with as in this case, a further harsher correction could make things much worse.


yep. this is a dog that cowers from the loud NO. I'm all for corrections but not here

GL, you bicker yourself more than enough though you always point out that you haven't read the bickering like you're above it. you're not.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I haven't read all the answers to your dilemma, but first I want to say bless you for being there for all animals and giving this guy a chance. 

I don't blame you a bit for leaving him with the other dog. Aggression to humans and aggression to dogs are two different things, and I too would not have automatically assumed he was a risk to Snow. 

I think, if your wife is on board with it and only then, you could get a good professional trainer with experience with aggressive dogs and try for a while longer, since you have no kids. I think the management that has been previously mentioned will make this a situation that you will not want/be able to maintain forever. If the time comes that it becomes untenable, I hope you have him put to sleep with you by his side, as he cannot be adopted out to someone else. Again, bless you and good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am afraid that the dog might even suffer from rage syndrome. It is believed that it is related to epilepsy. What suggests it is that you see in his eyes/demeaner that he changes.

But the going for the throat thing is what is seriously bothering me. Sorry. But normal GSDs do not go for the throat unless they are trained to do this. Or are seriously off and trying to kill. A GSD is not generally trying to kill. Even your police dogs out there that are highly trained in bitework, and are trained to keep on going until commanded to stop, they aren't going for the throat, they are generally going for arms and legs. 

Lala, there are dogs that are fearful, and reactive. These dogs are dangerous. But they are unlikely to kill. They are likely to bite. And maybe there are some that are afraid of storms and fireworks and new stuff, and cats, and men, but we can pretty much manage their environment and work with them, and if they do bite someone it is going to be bad, but not catastrophic. If this dog turns on its owner, or if his owner is unable to stop him, if it manages to get close enough to a kid, or an elderly person, it may KILL someone. 

A dog that is in the state where it is ready to kill, is not in a comfortable place. I would release such a dog from its demons. And I would hate the scumbag that did whatever they did to the dog to bring it about. But I wouldn't keep the dog alive at all costs, because some human taught it to attack to kill, or because it has a terrible illness. I would let the dog dog, peacefully.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

As I read what is happening silently, it took me back to almost 6,5 years ago. Probably, if the rage syndrome exists (there is still a debate about it, generally thought to be present in springer spaniels), I'm one of those in here who is very unfortunate to witness it in the first place. Bill, I'm no expert but what you describe is somewhat similar to what happened with my dog. I have no guts to search my posts, but you can check them out here as make a comparison at least. As I said, I'm no expert. Those freezes and attacks made me so worried cause kenzo did all of them. Although he attacked me in the head, attacked my father twice and about to tear apart my mom. All incidents were happening in a blink of eye, in seconds. After the attack he was getting to normal himself. But the problem is that you can't foresee when these attacks are gonna take place. I would suggest you to take your dog to Tufts University Animal Behavior Clinic. If I were in the country at that time, I would take kenzo over there. As selzer said, it is informed that it is a form of epilepsy. They can evaluate him, if so ( I pray not it to be) maybe they can put him on phenobarbital. I'm lost at words, cause after all these years I still question myself from time to time. I totally feel your pain, been there. My very humble opinion is run to an animal behavior clinic ASAP. I hope everything gets better for you guys, sending all the good vibes from here.!!!

Musa


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My granddaughter had a Sheltie pup of all things that would get into a weird stand/stare thing and then attack. I mean chase and bite whomever he could get ahold of. Not puppy bite, but full bites. I was working with him, thinking maybe my granddaughter who had raised him from 8 weeks old was triggering him. I had him on a leash and was walking him. He stopped, stared at me and attacked, tearing through my lightweight sweat pants and biting me. I got stitches, he was PTS immediately. Did a autopsy on him, at nine months old had a massive brain tumor.
Might be something like this with your dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

gib laut , no way "When the dog gets that look in his eyes he needs to be corrected immediately and Imo harshly"

The dog at that point is already in a different zone . He is fighting for his life (in his mind) .

That was bad and very dangerous advice.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> Lala, there are dogs that are fearful, and reactive. These dogs are dangerous. But they are unlikely to kill. They are likely to bite. And maybe there are some that are afraid of storms and fireworks and new stuff, and cats, and men, but we can pretty much manage their environment and work with them, and if they do bite someone it is going to be bad, but not catastrophic. If this dog turns on its owner, or if his owner is unable to stop him, if it manages to get close enough to a kid, or an elderly person, it may KILL someone.
> 
> A dog that is in the state where it is ready to kill, is not in a comfortable place. I would release such a dog from its demons. And I would hate the scumbag that did whatever they did to the dog to bring it about. But I wouldn't keep the dog alive at all costs, because some human taught it to attack to kill, or because it has a terrible illness. I would let the dog dog, peacefully.


 
we will never agree on it (not just you and i, everyone who's pro euthanizing for aggression). i wouldn't go seek out a case like this to rehabilitate. however, if my dog started to bite i doubt i'd euthanize. i'd probably manage and do my best to work on him.

also, this is hardly a dog that was taught to attack to kill. just a fearful dog that hasn't wanted to kill his owner yet so it's possible that he can be gotten to a comfortable level. and also, i don't believe in demons that haunt dogs. and also, as i said, i know a biter that bites his handlers. looks really happy and enjoying life most of the time.

jmo that might change some day if my dog starts to bite me every day. for now it stands.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

lalachka said:


> I just feel like the demons, tortured existence and all that stuff are just things people make up to make it sound like they're doing what's best for the dog.
> .



Until you live with a truly fearful dog you will not understand this. Avery was not aggressive like this dog, he never attacked/bit anyone nor did her really try. He was more bark than anything else. 

That being said he lived a life of constant anxiety and fear. Me touching the blinds in the livingroom sent him running to the bedroom. Something falling off the counter in the kitchen had him crouching in the living room. He did not recover quickly. It would take him 5+ mins to get out of his "fearful" state. I was 100% his person and we trusted each other through and through but he didn't feel that way about many other ppl. I would say in his short 4 years much of that time was spent in some state of anxiety or fear. It can not be any fun for a dog to feel that way and not know why. And it's just as hard to be the human in the situation watching the dog suffer. Although Avery would have had a home with me no matter how long he lived, sadly his life was cut short because of cancer. But I don't need any rationalizations. I know he is in a better place now.


OP I plan to respond on your topic too, but I have to get my thoughts in order. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> Until you live with a truly fearful dog you will not understand this. Avery was not aggressive like this dog, he never attacked/bit anyone nor did her really try. He was more bark than anything else.
> 
> That being said he lived a life of constant anxiety and fear. Me touching the blinds in the livingroom sent him running to the bedroom. Something falling off the counter in the kitchen had him crouching in the living room. He did not recover quickly. It would take him 5+ mins to get out of his "fearful" state. I was 100% his person and we trusted each other through and through but he didn't feel that way about many other ppl. I would say in his short 4 years much of that time was spent in some state of anxiety or fear. It can not be any fun for a dog to feel that way and not know why. And it's just as hard to be the human in the situation watching the dog suffer. Although Avery would have had a home with me no matter how long he lived, sadly his life was cut short because of cancer. But I don't need any rationalizations. I know he is in a better place now.
> 
> ...


I believe that fearful dogs, the ones that cower from anything and everything might not lead too fun of a life but those aren't the ones people are suggesting to euthanize. 

i don't have much experience and only know a few dogs in person so most of what I say is based on what I read. 

suggestions to euthanize are given to dogs that bite on this forum. those dogs aren't described as yours is. they're usually described as dogs that are perfect 99% of the time and then flip out. 


now a dog like yours - yeah, probably not a fun life but I don't know any dogs like that irl so I can't say whether they enjoy most of their life or not. I have seen a few biters and know one close enough. those I can speak about. also what's been posted on the forum.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

lauren43 said:


> Until you live with a truly fearful dog you will not understand this. Avery was not aggressive like this dog, he never attacked/bit anyone nor did her really try. He was more bark than anything else.
> 
> That being said he lived a life of constant anxiety and fear. Me touching the blinds in the livingroom sent him running to the bedroom. Something falling off the counter in the kitchen had him crouching in the living room. He did not recover quickly. It would take him 5+ mins to get out of his "fearful" state. I was 100% his person and we trusted each other through and through but he didn't feel that way about many other ppl. I would say in his short 4 years much of that time was spent in some state of anxiety or fear. It can not be any fun for a dog to feel that way and not know why. And it's just as hard to be the human in the situation watching the dog suffer. Although Avery would have had a home with me no matter how long he lived, sadly his life was cut short because of cancer. But I don't need any rationalizations. I know he is in a better place now.
> 
> ...


Thank you for saying this. I've wanted to respond to this all day, yet didn't simply because the response would have been less then kind.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

lalachka said:


> also, this is hardly a dog that was taught to attack to kill. just a fearful dog...


The thing is, OP has no clue what Wheelie's past was like. You can't say how he was trained, or what he was taught. For all we know, some crappy PPD 'trainer' was working with him. For all we know, that's why he hates car rides so much - to the point of vomiting - because that's a drastic response. So is his reaction to the word "no" and how did his tooth get broken off at the gumline? More crappy (sadistic?) training? We don't know. 

Also, I'm even going to say that we don't know that Wheelie is what people call 'fearful' either, because the fearful dogs I've known don't glare at people. To me, this is the opposite of fearful, because it's more of a challenge. I think we're doing more harm than good by speculating what makes Wheelie tick. Especially without even seeing the dog, lol.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lauren, I should've specified. everything I'm saying in this thread is about euthanizing for aggression and then saying that it was done for the benefit of the dog. 

it wasn't. it's done because these dogs are dangerous and most people don't want such a high burden. you can't make a mistake managing these dogs and you're responsible morally and legally for all damage they do. I'm not judging, it's a really tough spot to be in. 

but saying these dogs are euthanized because it's releasing them from their demons is not being honest. 

you just proved my point. you had an extremely fearful dog and euthanizing didn't cross your mind. 
why? he seemed to be tortured much more than the dogs in the biter threads. 
because he didn't bite and he wasn't dangerous. 

that's all I'm trying to say. I like people being honest about their motives. I try being honest about mine. 


actually, I haven't seen euthanasia suggested even once for fearful dogs that don't bite. hypocrisy at its finest.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> The thing is, OP has no clue what Wheelie's past was like. You can't say how he was trained, or what he was taught. For all we know, some crappy PPD 'trainer' was working with him. For all we know, that's why he hates car rides so much - to the point of vomiting - because that's a drastic response. So is his reaction to the word "no" and how did his tooth get broken off at the gumline? More crappy (sadistic?) training? We don't know.
> 
> Also, I'm even going to say that we don't know that Wheelie is what people call 'fearful' either, because the fearful dogs I've known don't glare at people. To me, this is the opposite of fearful, because it's more of a challenge. I think we're doing more harm than good by speculating what makes Wheelie tick. Especially without even seeing the dog, lol.


you're right))))) I said it in a way that this isn't a dog that's a monster killing machine that was taught to attack, just a dog that sees threats where there aren't any and attacks. 

my dog also glares and acts all big and bad just doesn't bite and I've been told it's nerves and insecurity. so that's what I meant by fear. 
but you're right, I haven't seen him and I don't know for sure.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

The way that I see it, is that the dog learns certain behaviors or reactions will bring on a reaction from the owner that could be painful. I would certainly see this as "living with demons". If a dog was kicked every time that, say, they went pee into the house, someone stumbling a little or slipping and kicking a foot out would remind that dog of what happened and the dog will react based on what is triggered - fight or flight.

I can use a patient we had last week for an example. Dog had seemed okay in the room. When they were placing the IV in, the dog ended up muzzled because it had tried to bite someone holding it. Rather than place a plastic e-collar on the dog so that getting him out of the kennel wouldn't be as hard, he was pre-meded for surgery (front leg fracture that was splinted) and put away. When we attempted to get him out for surgery, he was snapping and making it difficult to get a hold on him. The girl who was trying had him slip past her and down to the ground, though he did slide down her leg before he was on it. A technician behind her managed to catch the dog between his legs and I was trying to figure out how to get a towel about the dog so my hands would be safe and I could pick him up, when the male technician reached down and scruffed him. 

The dog went from warning snaps to full out panic mode. He screamed bloody murder, urinated and defecated and just started to snap at anything and everything that he could. The male tech let go and I reached down and managed to catch him around the waist, picking him up. He hardly noticed what I was doing since other people were still around and they were trying to help get control of the head part of him. He severely bit the girl who originally was trying to get him out, and I finally just walked away from everyone with the dog and told them to stay back. For a few moments he calmed down but then he realized I was holding him. He attempted to bite me, which just prompted me to turn him so he had to use more muscles to come up at me. He got slightly trapped in near a trash can and we finally got a thick enough blanket around him that I scooped him up, and we all tried to take a breather. 

Part of this dog's issue likely was related to one of the pre-medications, however, the point was that he went from nervous and fearful nipping into full out attack all the things mode because he was pushed beyond a certain threshold. After the whole thing was sad and done, our OSHA rep told me to do all his handling from that point out, and when he woke up from anesthesia, he woke up quietly and peacefully in my lap. (Granted I was ready for WW2 with him just in case, since I tend to get these cases a lot. >>)

It is hard to see simple gestures cause your dog to reel away expecting pain, see them darting this way and that looking for some escape. To see them basically lose that reality about them, which it almost sounds like the OPs dog is doing when he feels something is threatening his personal safety. Going for the face/throat is something you have to take very seriously, and I have yet to see any dog I've worked with in a basket muzzle manage to get a hold of skin enough to cause wounds. Wheelie's case is very troubling and he is not going to be a safe dog. He won't get to have the same kind of freedom that most people's dogs are able to have because he cannot be trusted. It is not always an easy life for anyone, human or canine, to live. So much suspicion and worry (making himself sick because of the car) just isn't fun. All that stress does negatively impact the animal. Look at what stress does to us after all. Our body reacts as if the stress is something tangible without our involvement.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

but as I said earlier, no one is suggesting to euthanize dogs that are fearful. or maybe I missed it. so as long as the dog doesn't bite he doesn't need the release from demons?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lalachka said:


> but as I said earlier, no one is suggesting to euthanize dogs that are fearful. or maybe I missed it. so as long as the dog doesn't bite he doesn't need the release from demons?


Lala, when I say release the dog from it's demons, it is just a way for me to say we may not know exactly why a dog is the way it is. We can not crawl up into their minds and understand what it is that is making them full out attack, attack with the intention of going for the throat. The glare and the full-attack mode. It could be rage syndrome, it could be a brain tumor, it could be really bad training, like a dog trained to kill anyone that gets near the owner's drugs, it could be serious abusive behavior. Sometimes we don't need to know exactly what the demons are, why the dog is in such an awful place, to release them from their demons.

And yes, I think the dog is in a terrible place. Whether it is fearful behavior, or flat out aggression. Why would a dog want to attack the wife? Why would the dog want to attack when someone yells No! The reason the dog-human thing works is because dogs are willing to let humans call the shots. They are willing to bond with a human and live in the human's life, in a way most animals really don't. Dogs that want to fight to the death with humans are in a really bad place. 

There is just a matter of time before this dog's aggressive episode is redirected onto the one holding the leash. I really think this is a bad accident waiting to happen. But no, I haven't seen the dog. Just from what the owner posts, what he is seeing, it seems like this is far beyond simple fear-reactive behavior.

As for putting an animal down for extreme fearfulness, yes, I think that there does come a point where the quality of life is so poor that it may be better, after trying management, training to build confidence, drugs, time to mature, when the dog should maybe be released from whatever is tormenting it. I have never seen a dog as bad as that. Mostly it seems dogs are afraid of this or that, or a little soft, but the majority of their life is still pleasant. If the majority of their life is reacting from fear, trembling, hiding, then certainly, such a dog might be better off, being put down.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

If the dog can't be pushed so far into a mode where it feels like kill or be killed, it isn't a direct threat to others. It may depend on the dog in a case by case kind of thing. If a dog is so fearful that they are constantly thin because they tend to have loose stools and vomit more than they seem to digest food, if they constantly try to run from anything and everything, hurting themselves because they're so anxious when you aren't around or they hear something they fear, and it isn't something that you can figure out how to either manage or help the dog start to realize it doesn't need to fear, honestly I wouldn't knock somebody who tried their hardest but just couldn't find a way to get ahead that decided it was best to let the dog go.

We had a foster dog who was deaf and partly blind. Any time we attempted to find him a new home, he came back to us a little worse each time. He first just would tackle my roommate's big aussie when they played fetch. It was just a nuisance at first. Then it landed with Bodie having a giant gash down the side of his ribcage and requiring it to be stitched closed (this being the HA dog who truly HATES our vet). So we attempted to keep him from being able to chase the other dogs during fetch. He would scream, yell, twist around, redirect his snapping at you. It basically looked like we were killing him by restraining him. Put a basket muzzle on him. He just started slamming into Bodie full force, knocking him for a loop. He started to get more snappy at the other dogs, particularly the old dog who could barely stand - biting at his hocks and making the older dog fear going outside more and more. Going after my young dog who once was his best friend that loved to see him and wrestle. We couldn't leave him alone. He'd destroy crates, things in the house, hurting himself to get out. Howl, bark, yell. So either Bodie or Myles had to constantly stay home with him, kenneled with him. 

After so many failed homes and how his anxiety just got worse and worse each time, the injury to our personal dogs, we made the very hard decision to euthanize him because it wasn't fair to keep trying to find a home to have him come bouncing back and it wasn't fair to the dogs who he was unintentionally hurting more and more. He couldn't hear, hey back off. He took it as something more and things escalated more and more. It was not an easy thing to do, and I had to go back when they were trying to place an IV in his leg to calm him down. My roommate simply couldn't be there, it was so hard on him. I stayed at his side so someone who loved him and tried for him was there when he slipped from the world.

He was probably only about 3 years old. 

So there are at times times when euthanizing an animal due to some kind of really bad anxiety or fear could be warranted. It is all a case by case kind of basis.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> The thing is, OP has no clue what Wheelie's past was like. You can't say how he was trained, or what he was taught. For all we know, some crappy PPD 'trainer' was working with him. For all we know, that's why he hates car rides so much - to the point of vomiting - because that's a drastic response. So is his reaction to the word "no" and how did his tooth get broken off at the gumline? More crappy (sadistic?) training? We don't know.
> 
> Also, I'm even going to say that we don't know that Wheelie is what people call 'fearful' either, because the fearful dogs I've known don't glare at people. To me, this is the opposite of fearful, because it's more of a challenge. I think we're doing more harm than good by speculating what makes Wheelie tick. Especially without even seeing the dog, lol.


I agree times 1000. We do not know that this dog is fearful. My example was because lala stated that "we" use demons as an excuse to Euth a dog. Saying that "we" are anthropomorph"ing" these traits. My example was meant to point out that their are dogs that do in fact live with "demons" if you will...

That being said if this dog is not fearful and is simply aggressive well then I am on the side of euthanasia. Management for a dog like this is very very taxing on a person their household and relationships. And call it what you will demons or otherwise there is something off about a dog out to kill. The whole reason dogs exist is to coincide with humans, one that wants to kill them goes against the grain in every sense of what dogs were bred for...which is companionship (whether you work your dog or not at the end of the day they are a companion)

And that's not even getting into the law side of things. If this dogs bites even one more person (and I am sorry Bill for saying this it is not a personal jab against you) it's totally on the owner. You now know the dog and what he is capable of, and if you decide to take on the responsibility knowing what you know...well you have to be this dogs guard dog and make sure he never bites anyone again.



lalachka said:


> lauren, I should've specified. everything I'm saying in this thread is about euthanizing for aggression and then saying that it was done for the benefit of the dog.


Thanks for clarifying.



lalachka said:


> but saying these dogs are euthanized because it's releasing them from their demons is not being honest.


Call it demons call it whatever you want but a dog that attacks to kill for nothing more than a glare is not right in the head. Bottom line some wires are not quite right upstairs.



lalachka said:


> you just proved my point. you had an extremely fearful dog and euthanizing didn't cross your mind.
> why? he seemed to be tortured much more than the dogs in the biter threads.
> because he didn't bite and he wasn't dangerous.


The difference between my dog and this dog is simply the ease of care. My dog was not a danger to anyone really, he was easily managed. From what the OP posted this dog will not be easily managed. And even the slightest slip up could cost someone their life or at the very least hospitalize them.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> I agree times 1000. We do not know that this dog is fearful. My example was because lala stated that "we" use demons as an excuse to Euth a dog. Saying that "we" are anthropomorph"ing" these traits. My example was meant to point out that their are dogs that do in fact live with "demons" if you will...
> 
> That being said if this dog is not fearful and is simply aggressive well then I am on the side of euthanasia. Management for a dog like this is very very taxing on a person their household and relationships. And call it what you will demons or otherwise there is something off about a dog out to kill. The whole reason dogs exist is to coincide with humans, one that wants to kill them goes against the grain in every sense of what dogs were bred for...which is companionship (whether you work your dog or not at the end of the day they are a companion)
> 
> ...


exactly. it's about the danger to society, no room for mistakes, lifetime management and stuff like that. it's not that the dog needs to be pts because he's so miserable (he might be but that's not why the decision is really made) because in that case you'd put your dog to sleep too 

I'm sorry, I'm beating a dead horse 
I'm stopping.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

lala...thanks!


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all of your thoughts and comments. This is just going to be a short update on Wheelie.

I talked at length with the vet who he originally went for, and, unsurprisingly, she is 100% in favor of euthanization, going so far as to make sure to prescribe me some Acepromazine to have on hand at home so when I was ready, I could have him sedated before I bring him to them. 

In the meantimem, I have done as much research as possible, as well as looking into various "board certified behavioral vets." For most of them, just the rate for the initial consultation is ~$450.00 not even including a physical exam, which sort of lets one know what is coming if that kind of treatment program is selected as an option. I have also sent out the word to all my past and present contacts in animal welfare/rescues/etc. to solicit advice or possibly names or orgs that could be of assistance.

In the meantime, we have also discovered, not surprisingly, that Wheelie is terrified of thunder at a level I have never encountered, and that is having had three noise-adverse dogs (especially as they got older) for thunder and fireworks. He hyperventilates, and runs--not walks--looking for a "safe place." I have tried to give him some places to go, but he cannot be still or get settled. Of course, we have had almost two weeks of continuous very powerful thunderstorms here, with another week of them on the way. I tried giving him 3 Benadryl to see if that would relax or clam him a little but to no effect. 

Because of the somewhat unique circumstances--my wife being out of town, living alone and working from home--I can, for the time being, see if there is anything that can be done for Wheelie. I am not deluded (I hope) enough that I think he will suddenly "come round" or anything like that. I am working very gently with him several hours a day. He tries very hard to please, and learns quickly. He is actually relaxed and fun-loving at times, and even affectionate. But, I never forget, either. If nothing else, at least he will have had some brief time with playing, and treats, and chews every night and petting like a normal dog.

Thanks again, when I have more information I will post. I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to help. It means a lot.

Bill B.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

thank you so much for the update, and for helping Wheelie, no matter what the eventual outcome. When I read your "if nothing else" sentence, i kinda lost it. it is so good to know there are still caring, decent people in the world. thank you again, and i wish all good things for you and Wheelie. take care, many blessings.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Thank you for the up-date and please keep posting so we know....Very best wishes to you.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Thank you for the update Bill, you are doing great.!!! I hope he gets better and better, all the best to you guys.!!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wonder if a thunder shirt would help him? Having a trainer evaluate him before the behaviorist might be a good idea. Sadly some trainers will tell you he requires private training, others will tell you see a behaviorist, and then there are the ones that really try to help. The day before I took Midnite who was reall reactive to the GSD club he tore up a trainers arm trying to get to the other dog. As I'm watching blood coming down her arms , she is telling me that he needs private training and thd price was pretty steep. I'm thinking my dog will eat her alive. I left very frustrated because I had to find someone to help me. I am grateful for that GSD club. For the first time I agreed with what they said to do and found an environment I could do it in and feel like they were there to back me up. Midnite respected them immediately. When the trainer brought his two senior GSD's within five feet of Midnite I swear I saw nothing but pride in their eyes and respect in Midnites. I'll never forget the look those dogs passed to each other, there was some kind of communication there.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

nbdyuknow said:


> I talked at length with the vet who he originally went for, and, unsurprisingly, she is 100% in favor of euthanization, going so far as to make sure to prescribe me some Acepromazine to have on hand at home so when I was ready, I could have him sedated before I bring him to them.
> 
> _If it does come to this, ask the vet to prescribe Valium instead of ACE. ACE leaves the brain active with the body sedated. _
> 
> ...


An alternative to a behavioral vet is to locate a behaviorist who will be willing to work with your vet. That was the route we took with Woolf and it has worked out very well. It does require some research to locate an experienced behaviorist instead of someone just making the claims.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Consultations with some of the best behaviorists in the world:
PETFAX Behavioral Consultation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - this one is you and Tuft's $250, 3 months follow up
About Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - basic about
VETFAX Behavioral Consulation : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - this one is you, your vet and Tuft's, I am guessing your vet sets the fee but I do not know

Note - these are not in person, but people have been greatly helped by this service in the past, with dogs who were on the verge of being let go. Video would probably be helpful. As would a person with experience eyes on. 


*NANCY REYES at FOR YOUR K9* Chicago, IL www.foryourk9.com (check special services tab) is a Suzanne Clothier recommended trainer. Which means she has access to Suzanne, too. http://www.suzanneclothier.com Looks like it's a little over an hour, not sure if she would come out to you or not, but not an unreasonable trip for good stuff.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have dealt with people at For your K9 for other things and they are a good group of people.


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Hello again,

Just another brief update on Wheelie. First, I have cast a net as far and wide for advice and help from everyone I either know, heard about or could think of to help. As a result, I received a lot of recs for trainers and behaviorists. I have spent a great deal of time researching and exchanging info with many of them to try and find the best person and the best fit. We are just about to get started with this.

As well, the vet who first recommended euthanizing Wheelie went a a vacation to Ireland for a couple of weeks. She left a VM on her way out of town saying I could call the clinic while she was gone, and get directions on how to prepare him to be brought in for euthanization. When she returned, she was apparently somewhat puzzled that I had not brought him in, and again phoned me looking for an update. Each time we try to connect, it results in about 4 or 5 days of vm tag and what not, so I wrote a two page update about how things were going and my plan. About an hour after I dropped it off, the clinic called and said she wanted me to come in for a consultation--no need to bring Wheelie. 

I went and we had a nice discussion. I explained my situation and that since I will be here by myself until I leave for WA, I can attempt anything and everything to see if we can make any progress. She still believes that this situation will end in euthanasia, but also said that perhaps his brain chemistry is hindering Wheelie's ability to function in situations--or, more to the point, that if he is always fearful and anxious he will not be able to learn from a trainer or behaviorist. She prescribed Fluoxetine (Prozac), with the additional admonition that it may take up to 4-5 weeks for the meds to become effective. Her thinking is that if the meds can lower his level of anxiousness or fear, that then he would be optimally positioned to respond to behavioral training.

Personally, I am somewhat skeptical of drugs like Prozac and my wife, as a psychologist, is definitely down on them for use with most human cases. But, as I said, I am willing to try anything and everything to give Wheelie the best chance. The meds definitely need to be combined with a training program, I am certainly not expecting them to do anything on their own. But, if it unlocks any blockages in his ability to function and process, then I will be very happy. 

My wife is enroute to WA, she will be starting her new position next week. We will be moving into an approx 2 acre "horse property" (meaning it has a pasture and fence) out near the base of a mountain, outside of town. My plan right now is to leave here around the end of October to do the drive out to WA. 

Even though about a month is a seriously small sample size, I will have to make the decision then if there has been any sign of progress in Wheelie with the combination medicinal therapy and behavior training. 

In the meantime, when he is around me alone, he is just like a "normal" dog--playful, loving, etc. He gets lots of treats and chews that he enjoys very much. When my 17.5 year old dog passed away, I put his "toybox" in the basement with all of his (considerable amount of) toys. The husky mix had apparently never been given toys to play with, so she had no interest in them, so I left them down there and just gave her chews. Wheelie found the box and claimed a squeaky toy that he has fallen in love with, he carries it everywhere and sleeps with it and cuddles it (and has also torn all of the stuffing out of it). So, he seems pretty happy right now at least. 

Thanks again for all of your advice and support, I really appreciate it.

Bill B.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Hey Bill,
I have been reading this thread with interest. I have been in medicine/nursing for what seems like 100 years, and I'd like to put my 2 cents in regarding medicating the dog. I come from a family that fully subscribed to home remedies, and never believed that medication or interventions were the first line, and this is how I still think: however, I would like to say in this case the dogs anxiety seems so overwhelming that he will never be able to learn unless that said anxiety is blunted somewhat with fluoxetine, or other means. There is a difference between drugging the dog into submission and augmenting the behavior so that they are calm enough to,learn to trust the world. I wish you the best of luck with your move to Washington state, and your work with your pup.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Since I have been in this realm of reading books dealing with dogs like crazy, I can't remember if anyone told you about the book, The Dog Who Loved Too Much by Dr. Nicholas Dodman. He goes over different behavioral issues like aggression, fear, obsessive behavior. He talks about different cases, different types of each thing. How he helped (or actually in some cases didn't find a solid help) for the different dogs. It really has been an enjoy for me to read, and I can relate to the idea of medicating and behavioral changes since I personally have found myself in a similar situation.

Training methods can some days can only do so much. Just like medications can only do so much. It's when you are open to trying different things, potentially combining the two things that you can have success.  If it helps Wheelie so that you don't have to go down the path to euthanizing, in the end I'd say winner, winner chicken dinner in that case!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

thanks for the update, i wish you great luck in your multi-faceted approach to tackling the problem. take care. (((hugs to wheelie))).


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

*Wheelie update*

Hi everyone,

SInce it has been about two months since the last post, I thought I would give an update about Wheelie for those who are interested.

First of all, I am still in my house outside of Chicago in North Barrington. It has taken quite a bit longer than I imagined to take care of everything to move. Hopefully within the next two weeks I will be able to head to WA.

Now, please keep in mind that Wheelie lives alone in a house with only myself and Sophie the pigeon. We have had no inside visitors since my last post. With that noted, living in the house, Wheelie has become an unbelievable, exceptionally loving (and clingy) dog. He does not like me to be out of his sight at any time, even when I go into the bathroom. If I watch TV, he lays on the couch with his head on my leg. If I am reading, he lays with his chin on my foot. If I am in bed, he lays as close to me as possible. 

Because of this closeness, he is exceptionally attuned to me and my comments and reactions. We have worked on his manners and he has come quite a long way since I got him from the rescue in mid-July. 

Outside of the house, not quite as much progress. Or, perhaps more correctly, a different issue. Where before he seemed exceptionally fearful, now is is just aggressive. On leash, he will bark at dogs and people. Even with the doggie Prozac, he is not as much "afraid" of the outside world as hyper-alert. If a tree branch 100 yards away cracks, he will whip his head around level of alertness. Sometimes when we walk at night, the wind will cause the trees to squeak and groan and he is trying to look at every noise at once. And, of course, he is extremely interested in squirrels and other darting animals. I have been working to make him "sit" and "focus" and he will sit and look at me, but still having great difficulty in keeping his attention. I had another dog who was similar but not as extreme a case as this. 

He is still having difficulty in dealing with any other people except me. There is an older couple who always hail me to come over and chat, I have brought Wheelie a few times. He has progressed to where he will sit nicely and not bark at them, but if they cough or honk their nose blowing it, or something like that, he will bark. However, it does not seem to be like it was before when he was clearly scared of people and would sit motionless, staring before lunging. 

I do have a basket muzzle which I have worked with getting him used to at home. At first he was like Houdini, somehow managing to get it off no matter what I did, but I think I have got the hang of it now. We have worked with lots of treats, so he sees the muzzle as something "fun" I think. 

Again, aside from what I have written about before and his barking, aggressive behavior (which is not unimportant), in every other way he is an amazing, loving, extremely affectionate dog. He loves to play, when he is especially happy, he will find his squeaky and prance around with it squeaking merrily. He gets plenty of treats, including a daily Dingo Dental Chew and a "bone" each night before bed, like a Busy Bone, Dingo bone or one of those ""meat in the middle" rawhide chews. He knows that when I am putting Sophie in for the evening, it is bedtime, so he runs to the bed and "sits pretty" very alert, waiting for his bone. Then he curls up next to me and snores like a muscle car with headers all night. 

I should also note that in the seven years I have lived here, with three other dogs, never once has one been sprayed by a skunk, but in the few months I have had Wheelie, he has gotten it in the face five times now, the latest being last week. What is important is that he lets me do whatever I want to him with no complaint, including rinsing out his eyes. As well, clipping his nails and other things like that. When I first got him home, if I simply touched his haunches or even his sides, he would jump and once even snapped at the air. Point being, is at least he has become comfortable enough that I can touch him anywhere and do anything without protest (except the sad, "do-wiht-me-what-you-will-human" eyes).

This does not make things any clearer for what will happen when I get to WA, and he has a new house, my wife, her dog and all the other changes to process. I think that will be a huge challenge. He will start training there, initially individual sessions with his trainer, me and, eventually, my wife. Also, I cannot even imagine the drive from here to WA in a car with him and a pigeon for 2,000 miles. I have been taking him on shorter car trips to try and get him acclimated to driving (because he was violently carsick several times when I first brought him home from the shelter). Giving him 3 Benedryl seems to help a bit, but if I do not, even a trip just down the street makes him carsick. I might end up giving him some of the tranquilizers for the drive, he can zonk out in the back and the pigeon can ride shotgun (she LOVES the car--go figure). 

Anyway, I just wanted to give an update and thank everyone once again for all their help, suggestions, good wishes. I do not know what the future holds in store, but we are doing the best we can.

Thanks again,

Bill B. (& Wheelie)


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I really want to see your pet pigeon! 

Thank you for keeping faith in your pup.

I wish you and him all the best in the near future <3


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Prevent Motion Sickness in Dogs, Prevention of Dog Vomiting - CERENIA

https://www.zoetisus.com/products/dogs/cerenia-_maropitant-citrate_.aspx

For the ride. 

Still highly recommend Tuft's as you get ready to move. Good luck!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Bill & Wheelie - I too wish you luck. I feel bad for Wheelie because all one can do is speculate on his past and the possible horrors it involved. I am hoping you all get through "this" which refers to his behavioral issues and the relocation. It may be total wishful thinking but there it is.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The shelter should have never adopted this dog out and I think they were negligent by doing so. I cannot believe what people are willing to risk just to "not fail a very troubled dog".


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## nbdyuknow (Aug 14, 2014)

Here is Sophie. Riding in the car (thinks she is the navigator), and sitting in my shoulder.

Bill B.


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## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

The best to you, Wheelie and Sophie. Please keep in touch.


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