# Questions about (British) slip lead



## Henricus

I have ordered this leash last week, it has just arrived home and I have a few questions about it.

I have been walking my 7 month old pup with a (another) slip lead for a week now, the difference is that I could not lock it behind the ears. The main problem I have encountered is that he has no issue choking himself if he sees another dog/cat. An example: I am walking on a path through the woods and someone with a dog is coming, I cannot go back (I'll be dragging my pup the whole way), there are high bushes on both sides, so I can't go there either. I just have to wait until they pass. He will lunge so much into the leash that he cannot bark anymore because of how tight it is, he is just opening and closing his mouth without any sound coming out. When the person has passed and he finally rests, you see him gasping for air. 
This is an extreme situation, because most of the times I can get out of the way (sometimes the luring with food also helps). 
I do not want to damage my boy's throat.. My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault. I prefer not having my pup pass out. 

How tight should the leash be behind the ears? Should I be able to fit two fingers? I feel the leash is sliding down easily..


----------



## Jax08

WHAT?????!!!!!! 



Henricus said:


> My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault.
> 
> .




First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea. 

Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.


----------



## carmspack

Jax08 said:


> WHAT?????!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea.
> 
> Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.


Big concerns about the trainer . BIG concerns "My instructor at obedience class said her dogs have passed out before on slip leads, but she doesn't mind that, it's their own fault."


Sorry , this person does not sound competent.

find your talent in the Ring clubs -- you must have some IPO or
Mondio / KNPV - 

from your other posts your dog is very reactive -- and bad mannered.

in some post you said he jumps up and bites people who pet him because he is excited. 
you don't correct him , but you get hot headed when the person tries to get some control , asking your dog to off or sit .

he over reacts when seeing dogs .

you have no connection with the dog -- 

instead of your scheduled 3 walks a day lastng from 45 minutes to an hour and a half - take this dog , and do 15 minutes at a time which will be intense and focused and he will be performing for you , monkey style or not, because you demand it of him.

you can not let this dog go into his zone where he shuts you out .

he isn't thinking enough -- no connection to you - he is in his universe . 

reward only for good behaviour. Because he is excitable , can't cap , reward should be calm , maybe reinforced by a finger nail size bit of dry liver . 

the behaviour is in his genes , his future is in your hands , 
you will always need to be proactive - on top of things . 

difficult dog -- 

post a pedigree


----------



## doggerel

I don't think slip leads are appropriate for puppies, because of the intense strain on a dog's neck, especially if pulling. I'd highly recommend a front-hooking harness for your puppy. Slip leads can be appropriate for a well-trained dog who is navigating in a casual, low-stakes environment, but your trainer sounds fairly misguided about how to teach a dog how to properly walk on a leash.


----------



## SuperG

When I used a dominant dog collar....basically a slip lead collar similar to the collar/lead combo you posted...but much thinner and no lead built into it.....and most likely more quick to the punch as far as the correction goes....I had it fitted much tighter than I assumed it should be.....but I trusted the trainers I was working with. The DDC was up very high on the dog's neck and tight so it would not move around at all. I had a short tab attached to the DDC and then looped around the 6 foot lead which went to a flat or prong collar.....if I ever needed to pop the prong collar..I could do so without engaging the DDC attached to the tab. I only used the DDC for a particular behavior....DA related. I was also instructed that when I engaged the DDC it was done with straight upward pressure...no jerking...or exaggerated pressure...just a steady even straight up motion on the tab close to the dog's neck...until the dog's front paws were off the ground. Pressure on the tab and DDC was ended when the dog settled back into a sitting heel position or got its crap together and maintained a heeling position. During this training...I would have my right hand on the 6 foot lead ....with it coiled up in my hand...and my left hand on the tab to the DDC, being ready to apply the upward pressure if the dog broke from the commanded position due to it's reactivity with other dogs. It was a short process when I used the DDC because of its effectiveness. 

The problem I see with the type of leash and collar you posted is it would be difficult to apply the proper upward pressure at times as well as the slip lead being so much thicker than a DDC....the correction would be less or take longer to get to the degree necessary to have the dog desist.

Also...it seems like using the leash/collar you posted allows the dog to pick its own level of correction and torment....and as it pulls against the slip lead the ensuing progression of cutting its air off might just incite the dog even more. My observation of how a DDC worked so effectively was there were no varying degrees of correction due to the dog pulling or lunging....once the dog's front pads were off the ground ....it was "engaged". It was also made very clear to me that the DDC was only to be used for a specific reason...

I never had my dog pass out or come close while using the DDC but she certainly did experience some discomfort from the correction..

I don't know if the use of a DDC was what helped beat my dog's reactivity all on it's own...I truly think it was a combination of many factors and trained obedience was huge....yes, the consequence for the dog losing it's crap in the presence of another dog was harsh during this phase but it was short and to the point. Perhaps more significantly....was all the additional obedience and focus training and learning how to get the dog to give me her engagement is what ultimately got her to come around. She was taught a viable option to replace her losing her marbles lunging and wanting to kill the other dog attitude. To this day, I don't think she cares much for other dogs....except a few.. but she keeps her crap together because of a combination of many factors...mostly the fact that she has to adhere to the obedience training we worked on...and the consequence for staying in line with her training is incredibly rewarding for her.

One other thought....once my dog was connecting the dots...I was instructed on how to use the DDC with subtle pressure when the dog exhibited any precursory behaviors leading up to the dog losing it's crap and doing the lunging breaking command baloney. My dog generally will lower her head a bit....lock on with both eyes and ears will pivot forward...if she exhibited any of her postures...I would just apply a slight amount of pressure to the DDC ...nothing like I would to lift her fronts off the ground.....and the dog would chill. Obviously, catching them before they lose their crap with the slightest reminder ...seemed to work great.

I also watched the DDC being used for handler aggression as well as a dog not coming off a bite once it was latched on to the decoy....besides that I have never seen it used as a primary collar like the slip lead you have. It's an effective tool and one I would have never used unless I was under the guidance of someone who really knew their "stuff".

Much of what I have posted is pretty crude and perhaps in error....I am certain there are other members in here that can critique my attempt at explaining this process.....I hope they do as it will help me going forward understanding the process as well as you.

Of course....when the dog does comply....ya gotta let them know in a big way.

SuperG


----------



## carmspack

harnesses are garbage for training

I have seen so much restricted, impaired movement with ill fitting harnesses --

great for sled dogs -- weight pulling dogs -- when you want to teach aggitation work where the dog does pull into the harness

part of the opposition reflex 

this is a 7 month old youth dog , who is damaging his trachea with his current equipment and improper application of a smart correction


----------



## Jax08

Slip collar are great for suppression but as SuperG said, it's a single correction. Take the breath away for a split second and reengage their brains. It's not ever supposed to be choke them, or let them choke themselves, to the point of unconscious. 

I used a slip collar for exactly this. It took two corrections and hasn't behaved like a jerk since.


----------



## SuperG

carmspack said:


> post a pedigree


I am curious if you can look at my dog's pedigree and tell me if my bitch has any predilections based on her lineage. She was handful with her dog reactivity.....seemed to want to dominate every dog she ever came across.

Yakaia vom Herzbach


Thanks,

SuperG


----------



## Jax08

SuperG - sending you a PM


----------



## Henricus

@Jax08
I understand, it doesn't have much effect correcting him if I can't reward the right behavior. I am having difficulty with this part, as is probably apparent by my many threads here.. I try to reward him for walking nicely next to me for example, but that behavior is so temporary that I'm sometimes not even quick enough to reward it. I can offer him a high value treat (dried bovine heart), but he will lose his focus almost immediately if there's another dog close by. I have emailed an applied behavior therapist and requested private training. She is on vacation until the 4th of July, so I need to wait a bit. I hope she doesn't have a tight schedule.. I will also talk with her about using a prong, because I do not trust my inexperienced self with such a tool. 
@carmspack
I agree with you, it doesn't sound like a competent person. She's not my main trainer though. But it does bear the question if not all the trainers at that school are like that. 

I just discovered there is a KNPV association in my town, never knew it existed here. Are you suggesting to join such an association, or to find a trainer in those places? 

That's partly true, he does indeed get overexcited and because of that will almost always jump and bite. But I do correct him. Maybe not in the right way. What I mentioned about people telling him to sit was just that some people seem to think dogs are performing monkeys. They try to give commands to test if the dog listen well enough. 

My instructor, the one who had dogs passing out on a slip lead, said I needed to establish a better connection with my dog. That he gets too much for free, without working for it. So she advised me to feed him his kibble from my hands, and I'm trying to incorporate NILF in our daily life. But as hard as it may sound to myself, I think you're right, I have not succeeded in establishing a good connection with my dog.

Thanks for those tips. Just to make it clear for myself. You are saying I should go many times outside with him for short bursts of time and do intensive training? Heel, sit, down, walking, at a fast pace? Or am I seeing this wrong? 

I like that sentence, his future is indeed in my hands..

I will post the pedigree of his parents. 

Father
Mother
@SuperG
I really like reading how others have managed training their dogs. It really helps. Thanks for the long reply.
The slip lead I have posted an image of is 9mm (1/3inch). Was the DDC you used thinner than that? The only thinner ones I found were show leads. 

I've watched a few instructional videos about the slip lead and how to correct upwards. I tried to do it on our walk today, and I think I did it alright, but it didn't help as a correction method. He would go form focusing on a dog (then followed a correction), to focus on the ground and sniff. Even calling him to look at me would not help anything, he just wanted to walk away to sniffing paradise. It's frustrating, because at home he complies much more, he listens much better and is far more calm in general.


----------



## SuperG

Here's the link to the DDC I bought. There's some good information on this page as well.

Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar?

I noticed at the very bottom of the page it shows both a dominant dog slip lead and a British slip lead....if the ratio is correct in the pics....the British slip lead looks considerably thicker. 

I bought just the collar not the lead/collar combo.

Oh, mine was fitted even tighter than the one show as correct....there was no slack whatsoever....any pressure on the tab attached to the DDC engaged it immediately as there was no slack to pick up at all

SuperG


----------



## Steve Strom

Henricus, I bet if you quit searching for some special tool or trick and teach him to SIT when you say SIT, period, 90% of what you keep posting about will no longer be a problem.


----------



## SuperG

Henricus,

This Steve Strom character makes a lot of sense and helped me out tremendously when I was struggling with my dog's reactivity. In my long-winded reply to you in this thread I mentioned ..."I don't know if the use of a DDC was what helped beat my dog's reactivity all on it's own...I truly think it was a combination of many factors and* trained obedience was huge..*.." I believe this is what Steve is hitting on...and it works...

I had to throw the "character" in, otherwise this post would have been sarcasm free.

SuperG


----------



## Steve Strom

While I'm ignoring G from this day forward Henricus, I bet you're in a cycle right now of always trying to stop things and losing sight of teaching what you want him to do.


----------



## Steve Strom

Oops, sorry bout that G. I got my threads mixed. I was going for an obscure reference about low level stim not always getting the desired results.


----------



## Henricus

@Steve Strom
This is the reason I have stated before that I must be a terrible dog trainer. Don't think I have neglected your advice, because I have not. I have been doing the "ready" and "done" on a daily basis. I just train the "sit" command, like you said, nothing more. I tried to change it to "down" after about two weeks, but he is very suspicious of going down when we're outside, he'll keep looking around continuously. He won't do more than two or three downs. He can do sit and down at a relatively fast pace indoors, but only a few times. 
I have made too many threads, that is very true. It really shows my insecurity in how to handle my pup and the fear of doing something wrong. 

I have been searching for a good collar for a while, mainly because the reactivity and the pulling is too much for me. It hurts my shoulder and really takes away the fun of walking him. But I understand, like said in the beginning, that the reinforcer of the tool is much more important than the tool itself. 

_I recorded this two hours ago. I went outside with him and my mother appeared on the other side of the road (not a small distance) to see where my sister was, he saw her and I lost him, completely. She was only there for about 20 seconds, but I could not get his attention back. I could not walk with him anymore, because he was extremely alert, looking around constantly. Didn't matter what I did, luring with food, calling him, etc. He would start running to one side, I would pull him back, and he'd run to the other side. 
He reacts much worse when it is me he sees and he is indoors for example. 
(sorry for the video, it was too much at that moment to remember I had to film in landscape. Also the sound is terrible because I had my earphones in, the mic is broken.)_





@LuckyG
Thanks for the link!

Also, I do not really get if the last three comments are serious, or just meant to poke around.


----------



## Steve Strom

Why didn't you make him sit?


----------



## Henricus

I didn't think of it at that moment. I know he needed to poo, so I was trying to get him on the grass, which eventually worked. Quite stupid if I think about it.
However, when I returned home he wouldn't sit before crossing the road. In my experience, he can sit at those moments, but will not give his attention to me. And this is the problem right here; I do not know how to react.


----------



## Jax08

I think your dog is just being a punk. As soon as he starts that, walk up next to him, calmly lift up for a correction and tell him Sit. That's what a choke correction collar is for. CALMLY. No emotion. And you keep doing it until he sits.

No pulling him back. No calling to him. No treats. You choke up on your leash and you correct him. When he sits quietly then he gets a treat. And you do this each and every time. Zero exceptions.


----------



## dogma13

This is what's so hard to explain on the internet.As soon as he saw your Mom, in instant BEFORE he reacted you give him a FIRM correction.Then it's "SIT!Look at me!"Good boy!Go on with your walk.Ask your trainer to show you.
Yeah SuperG and Steve were joking


----------



## SuperG

Henricus said:


> Also, I do not really get if the last three comments are serious, or just meant to poke around.



They were aimed at another situation...where I asked a question...and have yet to see a response ......different thread.

Good looking dog and not nearly as bad as you described.....I like Jax08's comment..." I think your dog is just being a punk."

Oh, that slip lead is absolutely useless if that is how you have been instructed to use it....I'm not trying to be a prick either .....just an observation. 

SuperG


----------



## Steve Strom

Henricus said:


> I didn't think of it at that moment. I know he needed to poo, so I was trying to get him on the grass, which eventually worked. Quite stupid if I think about it.
> However, when I returned home he wouldn't sit before crossing the road. In my experience, he can sit at those moments, but will not give his attention to me. And this is the problem right here; I do not know how to react.


With that leash, I would have stepped up next to him and with a short grip, choked him. Get him settled down, then give him a chance to be correct. Don't reward him if you had to correct first, reward the rep that follows, where he was correct on his own. 

Personally though, I'd get rid of the slip lead type things and use a prong. Be more proactive in correcting before it ever gets to a point of needing to choke him.


----------



## Steve Strom

And I agree with Jax. That's really not any big deal, the way he's acting there.


----------



## Henricus

@Jax08
Thanks for the help. I really need to remind myself to stay calm and emotionless. 
Not that it's important - and probably a very uninformed question - but I saw your reaction to SuperG's question about his dog's pedigree, what does a pedigree tell you (other than the HD,ED,IPO etc)?
@dogma13
Yes, these things are difficult to help with through the internet. But you guys have been such a enormous help for me. I'm kind of a sloth some times, I saw my mother on the other side and only thought about my pups reaction after he reacted.. But thanks for the help, I need to imprint these things in my brain. 
I thought so after his last message, but wasn't quite sure. 
@SuperG
Yes, I should've seen it, very obvious when I read it now. As I said to dogma, I'm kind of a sloth some (many) times. 

He's not that bad at all, if I have ever given that impression then it is due to commenting right after something happened, instead of cooling down before I write. I do realize I seem very hot headed (have said it myself somewhere here), but I'm actually known for being very serene.. Stress... 
Anyway, totally off track. 
What you're seeing there is not how I've been instructed to use it, but those are my natural skills. 
On a serious note, I have not been formally instructed yet, that will happen next Monday. In that particular moment I was not using it how I would normally use it (because of wanting to post a video here). I normally keep him very close and keep the leash going up from his neck in my left hand, loosely. I then pull it in an upwards motion to correct him.
@Steve Strom
That's an important things to remember, not to reward him when I have corrected him, but only the rep afterwards in this case. I have probably done that wrong many times. 

Yes, I need to be far more alert of my surroundings, and therefore his. 
I fear the use of a prong, wouldn't he hurt himself because of his reactiveness? I understand I need the guidance of someone who is experienced with the use of such a tool.


----------



## Jax08

I don't know anything about the pedigree. I sent it to a friend and she gave her thoughts 

Alot of what's in the dog is genetic. Whether a dog is handler sensitive, hard, handler aggressive, their grip, tracking ability, work ethics. If a person knows the dogs behind the pedigree, they can give insight into the dog in front of you


----------



## Henricus

Ah, ok. Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## SuperG

Henricus,

You're a good sport ...

Now get busy and get your dog to sit as that Strom character mentioned.....

SuperG


----------



## carmspack

Steve Strom said:


> While I'm ignoring G from this day forward Henricus, I bet you're in a cycle right now of always trying to stop things and losing sight of teaching what you want him to do.


Exactly -- this kind of dog , who loses his mind , needs a decisive handler 

as I said "
instead of your scheduled 3 walks a day lastng from 45 minutes to an hour and a half - take this dog , and do 15 minutes at a time which will be intense and focused and he will be performing for you , monkey style or not, because you demand it of him."

you will demand , not waiver or excuse inappropriate behaviour away . Teach him what you want him to do - no leeway 

what have you been doing with the trainer ?

there is that zone
"She was only there for about 20 seconds, but I could not get his attention back. I could not walk with him anymore, because he was extremely alert, looking around constantly. Didn't matter what I did, luring with food, calling him, etc:''

he blocks everything out , in his own universe .
You would get more control in teaching the heel - fuss , au pied -- 
than a sit or a down although once you say those words he must do it .
When you walk the dog has to be aware of you . He has to pay some attention . In a static exercise his mind can drift.

A more "blitz" correction can be given in motion -- dog even looks towards another dog , and snap he gets a lightning fast surprise of a correction done is such a way that the dog thinks it comes from his behaviour and not from you. 

video -- yeah why didn't you make his do something -- even if you were to frustrate him by turning away and walking the opposite direction -- make him sit , make him do ANYTHING .

you make a good post - lol , you didn't drift around 

this is how the dog wins .

poo schmoo --- he waited this long , he can wait longer


----------



## ksotto333

Jax08 said:


> I think your dog is just being a punk. As soon as he starts that, walk up next to him, calmly lift up for a correction and tell him Sit. That's what a choke correction collar is for. CALMLY. No emotion. And you keep doing it until he sits.
> 
> No pulling him back. No calling to him. No treats. You choke up on your leash and you correct him. When he sits quietly then he gets a treat. And you do this each and every time. Zero exceptions.


This is exactly what I was thinking. He knows he doesn't have to listen to you.


----------



## Steve Strom

SuperG said:


> SuperG


Heh heh heh heh


----------



## Steve Strom

> I fear the use of a prong, wouldn't he hurt himself because of his reactiveness? I understand I need the guidance of someone who is experienced with the use of such a tool.


No, not from what he was doing in the video. The prong wouldn't bother him anymore then the rope did. But You're going to end that stuff with him anyway, so it won't matter.


----------



## Chip18

Steve Strom said:


> Oops, sorry bout that G. I got my threads mixed. I was going for an obscure reference about low level stim not always getting the desired results.


LOL so ... it's not just "me" that happens to.


----------



## Chip18

OK then ... lots of "problems" here but the good news is you've taken the first important step in solving your "issues" ...." out think your dog!" So let's see what we can do here?? 

The clip is actually helpful ... and no ... none of that is right. But before I begin a question are "Prong Collars" available where you are?? Just curious I don't use one myself although I could but ... as I am want to say ... "there always that guy." And questions about a SLL ... yeah ... that's me.  

Sooo ... right now, you need to teach your dog how to walk properly on leash (yeah I know ... no crap) but you can't do that by correcting him around the block ... back to basics ... see the first clip here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And that is done with a flat leash and a buckle collar about as "tool free" as you can get ( no more tools than necessary is kinda my thing.) If you get that "principle" down, you can walk any dog. People get lost and confused looking for "checkbook solutions"
as I term it. I prefer to advise back to basics ... one tool and understanding how to use it "properly" is the best solution. 

With your dog ... I can "guarantee" you that a trainer that is skilled in the use of a "SLL" would have him walking properly in less than 4 minutes! The first thing they would do is postion the "SLL" properly and that means use use the little "tabby" thing and postion the "SLL" high and snuck on the dog's neck ... that's it. As soon as the dog tries to move ... you wait! The dog my protest, rear up fight ... you wait. He will at some point, figure it out ... "well this "crap" ain't working" and at that point he will stop and most likey ... Sit and wait for instructions?? At that point you say ... "OK" and go. Pretty much , that simple.

Flaw number two "corrections" in the clip ... the dog is out front and pulling! That's pretty much a lose, lose proposition! Your gonna be like this guy:









A dog is "strongest" pulling forward, I doubt you weigh several "thousand pounds???" And even if you did ... it would not matter:










So ... don't play there game, a "slight" tug "sideways" throws them off balance and stops the "Crap!" "Out think your dog" as it were. Here is what that looks like:






And while "Sit" which your dog apparently does not want to do?? Is nice ... it really means nothing to the dog, "Sit" in my view does not really take then out of there "comfort zone" a dog can Sit" and still act like a "fool." If you want to drop the hammer on them ... you tell them "DOWN" and "STAY!" Down means ... "playtime is over!" My "Boxer" showed me that one, her flews, would puff out in protest over "Down" it meant ... "Play Time" is over! Teaching that looks like this.:






And as regards "Sit" no need to address it directly "flank your dog" teach "Sit" like this:





Address the "issue" indirectly as it were.

And yes Jeff is using a "Prong Collar" but it makes no difference, a properly postion SLL, can achieve the same effect. It just requires a bit more energy, the correction however is "still" a slight tug sideways. 


And ... right now most likely, your only addressing the walk and the other dogs "issues" and your trying to do that with a dog that is a bit over the top?? No problem, you need to change his "attitude" and the best way to do that is to make life a bit more structured for the next 30 days. Train the Place Command, do Sit on the Dog, and institute a "No Free Roaming" in the house policy. Crate training would also be good idea but your call there, in any case indoors the dog should be in his Crate or in Place period ... "No Free Roaming" in the house. Details on that and 
"The Place Command" and "Crate" training are here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And ... finally as to "specifically" the subject matter of the thread "SLL" ... here you go:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


And since you mentioned other dogs take a look here:

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

But your dog needs to understands the "basics" of "walking properly first" and then you can work on the, other dog crap! And yes a DDC or SLL used as one work just fine. Or ... a pop on the head with the loose end of the leash for "slightly" annoying other dog behaviour ... works out fine. 

Finally ... as always ask questions.


----------



## Steve Strom

Henricus, your dog is not going to respond to anything the way that Golden Retriever did. The little tightening of the collar is only going to build even more opposition and the subtle directional pops will probably do the same. Downing your dog is more of a submissive position, but if you try it for control out in the public where he's wound up like in the video, its going to be a fight and the conflict over it with you won't be worth it right now. Working on a place command at home is a good idea, but for control in public, a sit will be just fine as long as you remember, he has to sit. If his butt isn't flat on the ground, he isn't sitting.

You aren't trying to get him out of any comfort zone Henricus, you're looking to do the opposite. Create a comfort zone of correct behavior. Your dog isn't as bad as you think, but he's more determined right now to do things other then what you want. The scared, nervous Golden having to be drug around has to be handled gently like that. Your's needs a little heavier hand. With a dog like that, or maybe if you started it right away, the blurring of the uses of a slip or prong aren't a big deal. Your dog has habits that need to be stopped so the difference in the uses, pops vs choke are going to matter more.


----------



## Steve Strom

One last thing Henricus, just to explain why I'm probably contradicting some other points that have been made. I don't care if his mind wanders in the sit, only that his butt stays on the ground. For the most part its a crutch for you. Its a complete interruption of the pulling or lunging, its easier for you to see if he's sitting, and it gives you a chance to relax a little, kinda reset and begin again. The way he's acting, I look at as a disregard for you. That's why I would want a personal correction for being disobedient more then a surprise to connect to his actions, its not a matter of right or wrong, more just a preference in some cases. I want him to know, I mean it and I'm going to be listened to. Period. Even some of what I'm saying may be a little contradicting, but its because of what I'm looking for on a casual walk or hike or whatever. Think of it more like he needs to be aware enough to listen and obey, but not so attentive that he has to ignore the world.


----------



## Henricus

@SuperG
Haha, thanks. Affirmative. 
@carmspack
I currently train in a group of around 6/10 people. We have to put our dogs in sit position and then walk, turn, etc. Or stand in a circle and then one after the other goes with their dog zig zagging through it. Just exercises like that. 

Today he "zoned out" on a dog, quite far from us, and I - this time - believe I corrected him right at the moment he spotted the dog. But he kept, after each correction, moving his head so that he could see the dog. I tried walking away, keeping the leash short and correcting every time he tried to turn around, but he still keeps trying. Standing in front of him, with a treat, calling him to focus, all didn't seem to help. 

At obedience the instructor gives me a hand full small cubes of meat, he does seem to be able to focus a lot better when I hold that in my hand and put it in front of his muzzle and make him follow it. 
@Chip18
Thanks, that's a lot to take in and react to. I will watch it and read through it all. 

Prong collars are available here, but it seemed to be something people are trying to forbid. I heard there is a law to be made, but as of now it is still available. 

That is the case, I have witnessed it at obedience. I could not walk properly with my dog, so my instructor came and took control of the wheel. He walked much better with her, still quite busy looking around (and searching me some times), but far far more compliant with her than with me.

He has free roaming indoors, but only with supervision. I put him in his crate for about one or maximum two hours after we walk for a long time. He does not like to stay on his place if I put him there and will almost always get up and walk somewhere else to lie down. I tried to walk with a leash (as I did when he was younger) indoors last week, be he just lies down everywhere I go and will only go up if I lift him a bit.. that lazy. Or basically, he doesn't see the point of the effort. 
@Steve Strom
Ok, I imagined so when watching that first part of the video. He doesn't react that much to any leash pop of mine. I really need to engage him after the leash pop, get his attention, for as short of a period as that might be. Down, like I said somewhere before, is very difficult in public, almost impossible. There can't be anyone around, no movement, and then he follows my hand into down position. Something he does 'lightning fast' at home before I give him kibble.

Yes, he definitely likes to hover above the ground and not sit down completely, especially when he's really exited. Then I have to repeat the command again for him to lower more. 

It's not contradicting, but it is all very much to take in. Especially to make it something to do automatically. Different things pop into my head, from what I read here. But it all makes very sense, what you're saying. His sit however isn't nearly as good as it should be for getting him out of the zone. It just seems I can't get that drive out of him to make it easier to engage him. 
What do you mean with a personal correction?


----------



## Jax08

The correction is not a "pop". You will have about 6" between your hand and the leash loop or choke collar. And you will calmly lift up until your dog is feeling the correction. The choke collar is meant to take their air away. And then up release. And tell him to Sit. If he sits and is calm, reward. If he is not, start over. You need to win this battle in no uncertain terms. You don't speak, you don't get mad. You just calmly lift up on leash.


----------



## Henricus

Alright, loud and clear  
I will go out now to do our evening walk, I'll will try this with ever road we have to cross (as it normally takes a while for him to sit...)


----------



## Jax08

Don't set him up to fail. Work within his threshhold. You don't want to have to correct. Work on sit first, at a distance of whatever he is going nuts at. Even do it with your sister! If he's going nuts, she needs to back up and increase the distance. Lift, Sit. Quiet? Yes? Reward. she moves forward. HELP HIM! REMIND HIM TO SIT. Still calm and quiet? Reward. Move forward a bit more.

You don't want correction and a negative to be your first choice.


----------



## Steve Strom

> Ok, I imagined so when watching that first part of the video. He doesn't react that much to any leash pop of mine. I really need to engage him after the leash pop, get his attention, for as short of a period as that might be. Down, like I said somewhere before, is very difficult in public, almost impossible. There can't be anyone around, no movement, and then he follows my hand into down position. Something he does 'lightning fast' at home before I give him kibble.
> 
> Yes, he definitely likes to hover above the ground and not sit down completely, especially when he's really exited. Then I have to repeat the command again for him to lower more.
> 
> It's not contradicting, but it is all very much to take in. Especially to make it something to do automatically. Different things pop into my head, from what I read here. But it all makes very sense, what you're saying. His sit however isn't nearly as good as it should be for getting him out of the zone. It just seems I can't get that drive out of him to make it easier to engage him.
> What do you mean with a personal correction?


The pop on that rope doesn't mean anything. Its just not ever going to be sharp or harsh enough. Let me try and explain one reason why I'm advocating for the other collar and a hard pop and release rather then the slip. Your dog already is pretty well conditioned to pulling hard against the slip and partially choking himself all the time. I think you'll have a hard time making a distinction in his mind of it now being a correction vs just its a little more uncomfortable. I think you'd be better with it being clearly different.

By personal, I mean its clear to him its you correcting with the leash because he didn't listen to you. Not that something just happened because of his actions. 

I think there needs to be a different sequence for you right now. He doesn't have any want to right now, he needs to have some has to put into him first. In the vernacular of engagement, you have competing motivators and everything else separate of you is more motivating. Jax mentioned threshold. That's what we've talked about before with using distance is for.


----------



## Henricus

@Jax08 @Steve Strom

I'll answer you both in the same message.
I remember the threshold part from when Steve explained something similar to me a couple of weeks (months?) ago. I have tried to do this, but it's difficult to find such a place where there is a save distance for me to operate on. There is one place that has a small lookout over the off-leash area for dogs that is a 15 minutes walk from here, but I have to go through the terrain of a retirement home to get there. But even there, the biggest chance for me to catch people continously walking their dogs is on a sunny day in the weekend. 
Taking my sister with me to go somewhere is difficult, he is uncontrollable if I walk with one of my family members. He will pull, indefinitely, until we arrive home again. It's like he is desperately searching and looking around. I picked my sister up yesterday at the bus stop. Our walk home was basically him trying to get to her, even when being choked on a slip lead. 
But I can try it maybe by asking her to go outside our home when I'm at the end of the street. That might work. 

Sorry, this part above is probably unnecessary long. 

"Don't set him up to fail", that hit hard. I think I've been doing that all along by not creating the right situations for him to be able to succeed. Really need to sit down and think about this. 

Another collar, like a prong, would make more sense with a dog that is already quite accustomed to not listening when the leash is very tight. Today was an excellent example. Before crossing the road there was a dog (with owner) passing behind us (about 4m/13ft), I tried what Jax suggested, but he didn't seemed fazed one bit by it, he did all he could to keep locked on the dog. He scared me ****less for a moment when he did a 180 and landed with his body on the road, it seemed as if the passing car missed him by a hair (and that while I was pulling him back as fast as I could). 
I did the upward pulling before that (when there was nobody around), he did not like it one bit, only fought against it, trying to get out? Eventually, after trying numerous times, he sat down..

After reading the last part of Steve's message again, and after writing all of this, I realize the importance of the distance training. It's not that I didn't see it before, but it's really far more important that I told myself a couple of weeks ago. 

Again, thanks for all the help. Lot of things to think about, lot of things to do.


----------



## SuperG

Maybe you have already answered this.....Can you get your dog to obey the most basic commands 9 out of 10 times or better....absolutely no distractions...and with no food treats/rewards (except your praise after each successful completion) until the end of a 5-10 minute session?.....Ya gotta start somewhere with some reliability.....


SuperG


----------



## Chip18

Ugh .... so the only thing that "Those who know what they are doing ... saw in the the clip is a "nervous" "Golden Retriever??" 

JQP does not care what the dog is ... it's the "PRINCIPLE" that is important ... not the dog!

The "OP's" dog "apparently does not sit?? OK then they can "Correct" the crap out of the dog until it does or ... do something different. Say "Sit" apply "upward" pressure on the leash and push down with two fingers on the dogs butt ... problem solved. 

And if they have an actual "SLL" see my clip on how to put it on "properly" do that "first" and don't move! See what the dog does?? Most likely he will protest at first?? Wait him out at some point he will understand ... "something is different here??" And stop or "Sit" and "wait" for direction??? Say "OK" and then proceed onward. 

I've done that with a "Jump rope" I fashioned into an "emergency SSL" for a run away, a "Door Bolter" and I can guarantee ... that was a dog, that did not know how to walk "properly" on a loose leash. No big deal ... we proceeded calmly down the street to his owner. She walked as calmly on leash (for me) as any one of my well trained dogs. 

The question "here" was about how to "properly" use a "SLL." I got it covered ... if it's not working for them?? Then I say the "OP" has something off in there approach?? I'd say "figure" out what that is ... correct that and then train your dog. 

I've heard no less than Jeff Gellman say, "that you can't properly correct a dog with a SLL??" And he gives "Props to those who can use one "effectively." If you work with rescues ... "most" are not going to let you use ... anything other than a "SLL" and by and large that is because "they" can't use one "effectively." 

So ... that's where I come from. For JQP ... I'd say pick a "proper" tool and stick with it! If it's not working for "you" then your doing something wrong?? Figure it out ... or start looking for "Check Solutions" and hope that works out. Nuff said.


----------



## Jax08

Henricus said:


> Taking my sister with me to go somewhere is difficult, he is uncontrollable if I walk with one of my family members. He will pull, indefinitely, until we arrive home again. It's like he is desperately searching and looking around. I picked my sister up yesterday at the bus stop. Our walk home was basically him trying to get to her, even when being choked on a slip lead.


So when he pulls, what do you do? Do you keep going forward? Do you stop and make him sit? do you turn and go the other way?

Whatever you are doing isn't working so you need to change something. His goal is to get to the other person. Your goal is to walk with your dog without getting slammed on your face. So how are you going to change this? He can not get what he wants. 




> "Don't set him up to fail", that hit hard. I think I've been doing that all along by not creating the right situations for him to be able to succeed. Really need to sit down and think about this.


This is so easy to do. We all do it all the time and then kick ourselves. Don't beat yourself up over this. 




> Another collar, like a prong, would make more sense with a dog that is already quite accustomed to not listening when the leash is very tight. Today was an excellent example. Before crossing the road there was a dog (with owner) passing behind us (about 4m/13ft), I tried what Jax suggested, but he didn't seemed fazed one bit by it, he did all he could to keep locked on the dog. He scared me ****less for a moment when he did a 180 and landed with his body on the road, it seemed as if the passing car missed him by a hair (and that while I was pulling him back as fast as I could).
> I did the upward pulling before that (when there was nobody around), he did not like it one bit, only fought against it, trying to get out? Eventually, after trying numerous times, he sat down..
> 
> After reading the last part of Steve's message again, and after writing all of this, I realize the importance of the distance training. It's not that I didn't see it before, but it's really far more important that I told myself a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> Again, thanks for all the help. Lot of things to think about, lot of things to do.



So here is what I am reading.

1. You have no engagement with your dog. You can't train a dog if he's looking the other way. You need your dog looking at you. What do you do to engage him? what do you do to teach him that you are the most fun thing on this planet?

2. Your dog has no value on the command of Sit. If there is nobody else around and you still had to correct him just to get him to sit then there is zero value in it for him. How did you train it? How did you reward it?

3. You gave him to much leash when you corrected him OR you suppressed him to long OR he was to far away from your body so you couldn't control his motions. He is going to fight you. He has been on his own agenda and has no idea why you are correcting him. You have to win this. 

He has to want to engage with you, he has to not only know Sit but also have value to it so he wants to sit because that is where the reward is and you need someone to teach you how to apply these corrections.


----------



## Jax08

How close to Rotterdam are you?


----------



## Henricus

@SuperG
I have not answered that, maybe in a non-specific way, but not directly. I think I can do it with him at home, without any distractions, for 5 min. But he might get bored quick, I'll try it later today. 
I have tried it today outside during a walk, there were no distractions. He did ok, listened fairly well to "sit", although some times I needed to repeat it once or twice. I did not time it, but I think it was about 3 minutes most (with walking a few steps in between every command). But it goes in waves. He can do two or three sits quite good, but maybe the fourth goes super slow (because he's too busy with something else). 
Not sure if I have answered your question though. 
Short answer: probably, but indoors. I should be able to keep him busy for a few minutes. But I have never done it without treats..
@Chip18
He can do a sit, but not well enough for him to react to it when he is "zoned out". If I have a high value treat in the palm of my hand, holding it against his muzzle (but covering it up with my thumb), then I can almost always put him immediately in a sit. It even works many times with distractions around him (after he's eaten the treat he immediately goes back to what he was focussing on). Is the treat less high value, like a normal freeze dried treat, then he might find his surroundings still more interesting than the treat and me (or he tries to take it from my hand while still looking at the thing that is distracting him). 

You're right about that. I probably have to correct many things in my approach to training, which is something I need someone in person to point out to me. 
The slip lead is proving to be a better help than the normal collar I had before. So I might stick with this, but I am going to look into prongs or metal chains. I emailed my instructor to ask her opinion on it with what she has seen from me and my dog. 
@Jax08
In terms of size comparison of the NL and the USA, I'm close to everything here. But I live in the north, so I'm "far" away from every major city (which is all centered in the middle/south-west of the NL). It's a 2 hour drive to Rotterdam from my house, but I don't have car.. I imagine you know somebody there? I'm close to Leeuwarden and Groningen (both 30min drive).

I discovered today that when he pulls, I do not have a consistent reaction. I might stop, hold the leash tight, and walk over next to him, and then proceed walking. But some times I pull him back to me, or give a pop to the right, and then pull him back to me.
It's a hassle if I turn and walk to another direction when a family member, for example, is not joining. A few weeks ago I went to the supermarket with my sister, we only had 20 minutes (15 minute walk) before closing time. So we didn't have time to wait around. Madoc, however, was not cooperating and kept walking in front of us pulling with all his might. So I stopped and told my sister to continue alone, we would never make it if I had to stop the entire way to correct him. I had to wait at least two minutes (but probably more) for him to calm down and I ended up reacting quite harshly putting him in a sit and raising my voice. After she was out of sight I continued walking. It got a bit better, but he was quite actively sniffing and (perhaps) searching her. 
This is incompetence on my part, I understand that. 

I won't beat myself up over it. But I need that sentence to be very clear in my head.

1. If you were to ask me that face to face, I would have no immediate answer. I guess that tells I'm not doing much of anything to engage him. I stopped walking with him off leash, I think that was the only place where I did a few things. If he was sniffing too long, I would run away very fast, he would immediately follow me. Some times I would hide behind a tree and wait for him to notice that "I was gone". I am thinking about incorporating off leash in our daily walks again, but only very early in the morning when there are no people walking there yet. 

2. He does sits without correction in the backyard, and some times outside if he's not distracted. Today things went much better though. I think the upward choking is helping a bit, he seems to be sitting a lot sooner now. 
I have trained it mostly indoors by standing in front of him, asking to sit, clicking when the butt touched the ground and giving him a treat. After that I would walk two steps back and repeat everything. Then after Steve's message a while back I started doing it at our walks, but still the same way I did it at home. I actually never really trained the sit while standing next to him as opposed to in front of him. 

3. This might be complicated to explain without demonstrating it, but, how can I control him when he is trying to get out of the tight leash around his neck? The only way I can do that is by putting my hand on his back/butt and holding him in place (while correcting with the leash). 

I am wondering if contacting an applied behavior trainer (who I am referring to in my posts as the private trainer) is actually the right move here. But she was the only one I could find who actually goes to the house of her clients. 
I might be better off with someone who does more serious sport training, helping me to engage him more.


----------



## Jax08

You might benefit from some online training courses. People share videos as they work thru the course. 

here is a good write up on engaging dogs
https://denisefenzi.com/2013/11/27/building-engagement-through-play/

And she has several online courses you can take.

Don't give your dog more than 2' of leash length. If he's at the end of the leash, you're already lost control.
The Domestics of Leash Walking | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee

Regarding it being a pain to turn around when you are with a family member, much of training is setting your dog up so you can teach them what you want. So 5 minutes a day...just 5 minutes...take him out with a family member and walk. Take that time to teach him to sit, to teach him that pulling makes you go the other way. Take that time to just walk out to the street with a handful of treats and work on sit. 

Dogs do not generalize. They do not know that Sit in the house means Sit in the front yard or Sit when someone approaches. Teach, Execute, Reward, Proof. Correct if necessary. 

FIVE MINUTES A DAY.


----------



## SuperG

Okay...well make that your bare minimums of compliance and improve from there...As Jax stated....dogs don't generalize so well....it can be frustrating because it can seem like you are starting all over again when the scenery changes and distractions are added....treat it as such in the beginning as you train in a new setting. Something I was taught...others can critique the method..but it worked for me. The first issuance of a command which the dog knows....is a freebie...the dog complies..it receives my instant positive verbal marker followed by some praise and maybe a reward of sorts if the execution earns it. If the dog fails...the second issuance comes with a correction....no real reward except my positive verbal marker upon completion. It helped build the consistency in short order.

I try to keep in mind your dog is 6 months or so I believe....and I rewind the tape to that time with my dogs over the years....they can be very willful as I recall....my current dog was just coming into her dog reactivity and gave me fits for quite some time starting about then. 

One other thought....it might help you down the road by starting the process today. Train your dog to sit every time you stop walking while on lead....eventually it will become default behavior and make life easier.

I think Jax is taking it easy on you with the 5 minutes a day....but the idea of consistency ( properly applied ) will go a long way.

The turning around approach worked wonderfully for me...my dog was a jackass when people would come over...so I leashed her up..met people in the driveway...the dog ramped up and pulled to get to my guests and we turned around and walked away....put her on a sit beside me....tried again...she pulled the same crap...we turned around ...created some distance....tried again...if she broke heel position she was corrected ..we'd turn around and try again. Some of my friends would just say she was excited to see them...I didn't care...the dog never got to get close until she quit being an uber punk adolescent. It was an interesting process because once the dog figured out all the turning around and corrections ceased once she kept her crap together...she got what she wanted. I'm thinking it tested my patience more than hers....easily.


----------



## Jax08

Me? Take it easy on someone? Don't let it out that I can be nice!


----------



## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> Me? Take it easy on someone? Don't let it out that I can be nice!


Ah come on. Warm and fuzzy dominates everything you post. Lol.


----------



## Jax08

That's the alcohol


----------



## carmspack

Henricus said 
" If you were to ask me that face to face, I would have no immediate answer. I guess that tells I'm not doing much of anything to engage him. I stopped walking with him off leash, I think that was the only place where I did a few things. If he was sniffing too long, I would run away very fast, he would immediately follow me. Some times I would hide behind a tree and wait for him to notice that "I was gone". I am thinking about incorporating off leash in our daily walks again, but only very early in the morning when there are no people walking there yet. "

I sure would NOT. You don't have control on lead and less off lead . Sniffing too long on a walk -- NOT being attentive - he is in his own zone (as he always seems to be) . Shouldn't be sniffing period. He is on your walk , not you on his . Get moving don't give him time . 
You have to wait behind a tree ! He isn't even aware that you are gone.

Right from the beginning I said there is no connection between the two of you . He blows you off.

At the moment he might be anxious after looking up and try to find you. Give him another 6 months , he'll look up and shrug , oh well, and continue happily sniffing or go on an adventure. '

You need short expeditions out into the world , dog on leash , and giving you whatever you ask of him . "like a monkey" 
because right now you have nothing .

You need to be firm , and consistent . You should not need to ask him to sit three times. 

Once - no quick response ? - correct sharply, surprise him by your speed and he will pay attention --- then reward him .

do not indulge the dog . He works on your time , not his.


----------



## SuperG

carmspack said:


> Once - no quick response ? - correct sharply, surprise him by your speed and he will pay attention --- then reward him .
> 
> .


I have somewhat migrated toward that attitude as my dog has matured.....it's not "training" anymore since she is coming up on 4 years..........but I tend to not reward her for being an insolent bitch on those rare occasions since it no longer is really training....well maybe it is ???

SuperG


----------



## Jax08

OP - can I ask how old you are?


----------



## Henricus

Wasn't feeling all too well yesterday evening, decided to leave my answer for today. 

@Jax08
Thanks for both of the links. I have seen through a lot of youtube channels (especially the Positive Training channel) and although it does help increase my knowledge in general, it is difficult to take that third person view of myself to see if I'm doing it alright and if it applicable to my dog. 
But I'll read through it none the less. 

Ok, that's a helpful tip. Dog's do not generalize. It makes a lot of sense, but I didn't think of it before. 
Our walk yesterday evening was a lot better, he is starting to react much faster to the "sit" command. I called my sister to meet me when I was almost at home, just so she could walk the last few minutes with us. This was the first time I felt I was in control of the situation. I realize I simply gave up too soon before and was not consistent with how I corrected him. This time I just used one correction, the upward motion of the leash, and stopped walking as soon as he did anything other than walking next to me. 
YES, ALRIGHT, UNDERSTOOD. 

Sure you can, I am 15 years old. 
No I'm just kidding, I'll be 28 next month. My current living conditions are not optimal to say the least, but I have no choice, I have to wait a few months to get my own place. Hopefully around December/January.

@SuperG
Ok, thanks, great tip. Can't see why anybody would critique that. 

He's 7 months at the moment and he certainly is very willful. He also gives me fits, mostly when he bites me and I correct him (he started waking me up by biting in my arm. He sleeps in my room and, since I moved the crate downstairs, he has free roam at night there). He will give me a fit and bite me harder after it. When he goes in that direction I put him for 30 seconds in another room. Most of the times he comes running out and grabs a toy. 

Yes, I started doing that yesterday evening. Every time I stop he has to sit. Like I told Jax, he is listening a lot better to the sit commands. 
I'll do the five minutes, consistently, as that is probably more important than the duration. But I'll increase from there over time.

Haha, I'm sure about that. It will test my patience far more than his. My neighbor came by the other day and when talking about the reactivity, he said I should tell all the visitors to not give any attention to my dog, at all. No petting, nothing. Only after he is calm and I say it's ok, can they give attention. 
It is difficult indeed, because everyone seems to be an expert in their minds. Being it from watching a marathon of Cesar Millan, or having owned a dog, they all "perfectly" understand dogs: "Why are you holding him, let him come to me, he likes me, I can handle him", "Are you sure that's the right thing? I saw Cesar doing somet....blabla"....
It seems as though there is a weekly meeting for dog owners in my neighborhood that I have not been informed of as of yet, because dog owners are evading me and my pup, even from large distances. I see people far away who turn around when I am walking in their direction. I talked with a woman, who owns two oversized labradors (one has to be pushed in a strange probably self build stroller), the other day. She couldn't evade me this time, but got pleasantly surprised by our talk and my pup. They are helping me, in a sense, but certainly for the wrong reasons. Ah heck, I'm getting sidetracked again. 

@carmspack
I'm sorry, I oversimplified that sentence. The off leash area is a relatively large place for dogs to run. I some times would be 20m (65ft) away from him, and if he was concentrated on something, I would try to slip away to hide behind a nearby tree. I didn't succeed that many times, and even when I did, the waiting part wouldn't have taken more than a few seconds before he was already running in my direction. 

I would very much like to have a kind of militarized walk, where there is only sniffing time when I say it is. But I've read so much mixed things about this, very extreme to both sides. "Let dogs be dogs, they need to sniff to explore the world", etc. I've always kept the leash short when he wants to sniff n' walk, or I simply started to walk faster. But that never kept him from hanging in the leash and still sniffing, even when walking fast. As I am progressing from all the help I am getting, I started yesterday with stopping and putting him in a sit when he gets too busy sniffing, and then continuing our walk again. It seems to be far more effective than what I did before. So simple..

Yeah, I really don't want that; a dogs that shrugs if I call him... 

I get it. Short intense walks are far more productive than long disorganized walks. I will see what I can do to change this part up in our daily routine. 

@SuperG
Maybe it's not really training anymore, but instead, maintenance?

ps: thanks @Cassidy's Mom for changing the title. It kept reminding me of Tarantino every time I opened this thread.


----------



## Jax08

Just making sure we weren't telling a kid to go find a trainer!!! 

I'm a big believer in small steps. When I was moving thru the steps in teaching heeling, I found that if I could get good formal heeling for 3 steps, I could get 6 and then I could get 15. Literally, 3 steps over and over with heavy reward.


----------



## Henricus

I understand.  I've probably never given any indication of being the age I am. You expect the users to be adults, but when you talk about mom and sisters... well..

Ok, small steps. Something I tend to forget in my personal life, to be honest. So that'll be a good thing to keep in mind through the training, it might also jump over to another aspect of my life as a side effect.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Henricus said:


> ps: thanks @Cassidy's Mom for changing the title. It kept reminding me of Tarantino every time I opened this thread.


Me too! :rofl: No problem.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Henricus said:


> Yes, I started doing that yesterday evening. Every time I stop he has to sit. Like I told Jax, he is listening a lot better to the sit commands.
> I'll do the five minutes, consistently, as that is probably more important than the duration. But I'll increase from there over time.


One way to break it down and teach the automatic sit is what I've seen referred to as the "wedding march". If you only take one step at a time, and then stop and have him sit, he's going to learn that there's no point in pulling. Also, it teaches the beginning, middle and end of the heeling behavior without even attempting extended duration. Once he has that down, you add additional steps. 

At first it will look like this: Step forward with your right foot. Bring your left foot forward to match your right foot and STOP. If you need to, lure him into the sit with a treat. Mark and reward. Step forward again and stop. Sit, mark and reward. I worked on this with Halo off leash in the dog run outside because it's a long narrow area with a fence down one side and the house down the other side. Once I no longer needed to use the lure (I always try to fade that out as quickly as possible, so it doesn't become a secondary cue that the dog begins to rely on), I'd just use the verbal cue, but still mark and reward. Next, take two steps and stop. Then three steps, etc.

Next I'd add about face turns in both directions. For the left turn, I'd say "turn" right before I pivoted sharply to the left. If she was in my way I turned into her, bumping her out of my way with my knee. Normally I don't add verbal cues until the dog has an understanding of the behavior I'm teaching, but in this case the word became a cue for her to stop and turn with me so I wouldn't crash into her. She associated the word with MY behavior, of making a sudden about face. Since she had to speed up to stay with me for a right turn, I initially lured that with a treat in my hand, marking and delivering the treat after the about face. You can even work on about face turns in both directions by doing a series of quarter or half turns in a circle. 

As you can see, everything can be broken down into much smaller steps, and then you build upon those for more complex behaviors.


----------



## Chip18

SuperG said:


> Okay...well make that your bare minimums of compliance and improve from there...As Jax stated....dogs don't generalize so well....it can be frustrating because it can seem like you are starting all over again when the scenery changes and distractions are added....treat it as such in the beginning as you train in a new setting. Something I was taught...others can critique the method..but it worked for me. The first issuance of a command which the dog knows....is a freebie...the dog complies..it receives my instant positive verbal marker followed by some praise and maybe a reward of sorts if the execution earns it. If the dog fails...the second issuance comes with a correction....no real reward except my positive verbal marker upon completion. It helped build the consistency in short order.
> 
> I try to keep in mind your dog is 6 months or so I believe....and I rewind the tape to that time with my dogs over the years....they can be very willful as I recall....my current dog was just coming into her dog reactivity and gave me fits for quite some time starting about then.
> 
> One other thought....it might help you down the road by starting the process today. Train your dog to sit every time you stop walking while on lead....eventually it will become default behavior and make life easier.
> 
> I think Jax is taking it easy on you with the 5 minutes a day....but the idea of consistency ( properly applied ) will go a long way.
> 
> The turning around approach worked wonderfully for me...my dog was a jackass when people would come over...so I leashed her up..met people in the driveway...the dog ramped up and pulled to get to my guests and we turned around and walked away....put her on a sit beside me....tried again...she pulled the same crap...we turned around ...created some distance....tried again...if she broke heel position she was corrected ..we'd turn around and try again. Some of my friends would just say she was excited to see them...I didn't care...the dog never got to get close until she quit being an uber punk adolescent. It was an interesting process because once the dog figured out all the turning around and corrections ceased once she kept her crap together...she got what she wanted. I'm thinking it tested my patience more than hers....easily.


Aww heck ... a challenge?? 

Ok I'm up but not really a "critique" as much as an "observation." 

What you did was pretty much a variation of the KMODT, short line work. I don't care where your going?? We are going "this" way it would "behoove" you, dog to "Pay Attention." 

The automatic "Sit" can be done but this dog needs to start walking properly first.


----------



## SuperG

Chip18 said:


> The automatic "Sit" can be done but this dog needs to start walking properly first.


I agree....mostly. My memory suggests my dog spent more time sitting as she learned to walk properly. There were times when it took 5 minutes just to reach the end of my short driveway....she forged...correction...I stopped...reset her and tried anew. Two steps..she pulled ...we stopped..and tried again....must have done that more times than I can recall...I'm guessing if she figured it out quicker or I conveyed the idea better to her..it would have taken her 15 seconds to get to the end of the driveway. So, the other 4 mins and 45 secs...she spent sitting as we tried again and again. So, as she learned some rules to the walk....she most certainly became familiar with sitting when I would stop. In my situation.....the default sit was somewhat a byproduct of her learning she wasn't being trained to be a sled dog. 

SuperG


----------



## Chip18

SuperG said:


> I agree....mostly. My memory suggests my dog spent more time sitting as she learned to walk properly. There were times when it took 5 minutes just to reach the end of my short driveway....she forged...correction...I stopped...reset her and tried anew. Two steps..she pulled ...we stopped..and tried again....must have done that more times than I can recall...I'm guessing if she figured it out quicker or I conveyed the idea better to her..it would have taken her 15 seconds to get to the end of the driveway. So, the other 4 mins and 45 secs...she spent sitting as we tried again and again. So, as she learned some rules to the walk....she most certainly became familiar with sitting when I would stop. In my situation.....the default sit was somewhat a byproduct of her learning she wasn't being trained to be a sled dog.
> 
> SuperG


Aw ... I see ... that is very similar to how I view it. If the dog acts like a "tool" we don't move.

Once they "Stop" being "toolish" we proceed. I much prefer the "Sit" to be a volunteer behavior rather then compelled.

I do like the upward leash "pressure" and two fingers on the butt thing. If I teach " Sit" in the future most likely that's how I'll do it?? But for walking ... my only requirement is for the dog to not pull and if I stop they stop, I don't care if they sit or stand as long as they are calm and not reactive ... it's all good. 

But it sounds like with the pullers, the process done effectively regardless of tool is first ... OK pulling is getting me nowhere ... so I'll stop doing that ... and wait, and ... perhaps I'll Sit while, I await further instructions?? 

I've seen that with rescues, I tell them "nothing" they offer the behavior a "sit" and then we go. Works out fine ... now the ones that don't wanna move ... that's another kettle of fish!


----------



## Henricus

@Cassidy's Mom
Thank you! That's a great suggestion. I did it yesterday evening and this morning. With all of these different exercises I've been doing, including this one now, I really noticed a big progression. Most of the times I just have to say "Sit" once, although I do need to tighten the leash after it for him to get his attention to me. 
He does however sit like wants to sit, being it next to me, or a few steps behind or with a 45 degree angle from me (with his butt facing West from my position). Can I simply just place him in the right position with my hand, and then mark. Or do I need to take him out of the sit position and lure him next to me, ask to sit again, until he sits on the right spot, next to my left leg. 
@SuperG
It can also take me minutes to simply get off my driveway. I won't walk if he keeps pulling, so I walk back. He is hardheaded though.. 


I have a question about that. As I am practicing "Sit" a lot more and also correcting bad behavior (like pulling, walking in front of me, focussing on dogs, etc), he seems to be getting annoyed sometimes and out of nowhere starts running away from me (still on leash), more than he used to do. Anybody familiar with this behavior? Can it be he is not understanding why I am correcting and is simply not happy with it?


----------



## Jax08

Henricus said:


> @*SuperG*
> It can also take me minutes to simply get off my driveway. I won't walk if he keeps pulling, so I walk back. He is hardheaded though..
> 
> 
> I have a question about that. As I am practicing "Sit" a lot more and also correcting bad behavior (like pulling, walking in front of me, focussing on dogs, etc),* he seems to be getting annoyed sometimes and out of nowhere starts running away from me (still on leash)*, more than he used to do. Anybody familiar with this behavior? Can it be he is not understanding why I am correcting and is simply not happy with it?


this goes back to engagement and reward. So you are correcting him but what are you doing for him to tell him when he's done right?

This scenario should go....walking with loose leash 3 steps, reward party, walking...oops! Starts to pull!, correct and sit, reward for sitting (You have given a command! And he did it! Reward for that!), walking with loose leash 1 step 2 steps 3 steps, REWARD. 

No, he has no idea what you are correcting for because it's new to him and you haven't taught him the behavior you want. And if he's runing from you then your corrections are to harsh for the dog he is OR you aren't rewarding enough so all he knows is punishment.


----------



## Henricus

Alright, again very clear. I've got to ante up the rewarding, which I am not doing enough. 

The only correction I give is by gently (although that's not the case when he jumps towards someone/something) pulling the leash upward. The "pop's" are sometimes a bit quicker/harsher, especially when he keeps trying to turn around to see something. Maybe it is too much for him, I have to keep my eye on it. I don't want him to see me as a partly boogieman. 

Either way, long story short, I'm not doing it right. I'm focussing too much on the correcting part.

Thanks


----------



## Jax08

I think you are changing everything up on and him and it's creating conflict because he doesn't know what is expected. To fix that you need to reward him when he's doing right so he understands what you want. 

You have to teach him the position that earns him the reward. It's literally called the Reward Line! Out in front earns me discomfort. Beside my guy earns me my food. use his meals to train him. Then he's hungry, a little more motivated and you don't overfeed him.

Keep the corrections the same intensity and up the reward. have a party. If you don't look like an idiot when rewarding your dog, you aren't doing it right!


----------



## Henricus

Haha, ok, got it.  Gotta find my inner clown again. 

Just to clarify, are you meaning his whole meals? I feed him thrice a day, evenly divided. Should I just fill my pockets (or my yet to buy treat bag) with the usual meal amount and use it to train him? Or should I train him right before his meal?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Henricus said:


> Haha, ok, got it.  Gotta find my inner clown again.
> 
> Just to clarify, are you meaning his whole meals? I feed him thrice a day, evenly divided. Should I just fill my pockets (or my yet to buy treat bag) with the usual meal amount and use it to train him? Or should I train him right before his meal?


Totally agree with Jax - at this stage I'd be focusing much less on corrections and much more on rewarding the behavior (or in this case positioning) that you want. Corrections can always be added later, once he grasps what you expect of him. And definitely up your enthusiasm level. If you're not having fun, he's not having fun! I think you said you're a guy? I've noticed that men often tend to have a harder time with this than women do. Find your inner high, happy voice. Don't be afraid to act silly. 

This is my favorite treat bag: https://www.amazon.com/Rewards-Deluxe-Training-Doggone-Good/dp/B009EVRAPE

It's got side pockets where you can put poop bags, a clicker, lip balm, etc. There's a small front pocket and a large main pocket. The big pocket has a magnetic closure rather than a hinged opening, which I prefer because after purchasing numerous hinged bags, the hinge always ends up breaking. And it's large enough to hold tons of treats and also a ball on a rope as a reward toy. There's also a smaller inner pocket where I can drop my cell phone so it's not in with the treats. 

I usually train before I feed. If he'll work for kibble, measure out his meal, and whatever you don't use for training you can dump in his bowl when you're done.


----------



## SuperG

Henricus said:


> I don't want him to see me as a partly boogieman.


I heard someone mention "engagement".

"Engagement is the most important thing you can have with your puppy. Engagement means your puppy wants to be with you and it wants what you have." Frawley

You've probably seen the video but the words spoken before the session starts are worthy.






SuperG


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Michael Ellis is a prefect example of using engagement in training - in addition to using lots of rewards, luring into position, and being upbeat and happy in his demeanor, he uses LOTS of movement as well! Just standing there is boring, but you can see this puppy is having a great time. Even though it's off leash, he has no trouble keeping it with him and wanting to work.


----------



## Henricus

@Cassidy's Mom
Yes, I'm a guy. I remember my instructor at puppy class laughing when I greeted my pup enthusiastically with a deep voice. I had go up a few octaves, lol. I am doing it much better now. 

Thanks for the link! I will see if I can find a similar, or even the same one, in an online Dutch store. I can't buy anything from Amazon without a Credit Card, which is something I don't have. It's not that common here, at least not as much (I think) as it is on the other side of the ocean. 
@SuperG
I hadn't seen that video yet, I've seen a few others from him. Thank you.


----------



## Henricus

@ Everybody who helped me

It really means a lot to me how you guys helped me, even beyond the question I initially asked. I appreciate all the critiques, it helps me be a better trainer, a better pet owner. The last few days, especially while walking with my pup, I noticed how I was doing many things on an automatic pilot. I'm much more conscious of what I do now.
Still a long way to go, but I'll get there. 

Thanks!


----------



## carmspack

Henricus said:


> @ Everybody who helped me
> 
> It really means a lot to me how you guys helped me, even beyond the question I initially asked. I appreciate all the critiques, it helps me be a better trainer, a better pet owner. The last few days, especially while walking with my pup, I noticed how I was doing many things on an automatic pilot. I'm much more conscious of what I do now.
> Still a long way to go, but I'll get there.
> 
> Thanks!


Automatic pilot is a good way of putting it. I see people on the cell phone fully engaged with the person on the other end , their dog in is own world. Zombified 

. Recognizing this is the first step to creating a connection , engagement , with your dog.
Up to this point you have been on auto-pilot and so has the DOG .
Behaviour becomes conditioned , no thinking required . 

here's to success


----------



## Jenny720

We used a slip collar with the very short -few inches-lead along with our fur saver and regular leash in nose works today. It worked great as max needed some reminders (as we were outside doing vehicle searches today) to paying attention to me while waiting our turn in nose works class.


----------



## Jenny720

Jenny720 said:


> We used a slip collar with the very short -few inches-lead along with our fur saver and regular leash in nose works today. It worked great as max needed some reminders (as we were outside doing vehicle searches today) to paying attention to me while waiting our turn in nose works class.


 Oops wrong thread. But all great advise here. Engaging is a a huge deal. I like to go to the beach where there are a dogs allowed on one side of the beach they are all on leashes and a just a few. it's a great place for us to practice as I know we are having fun and have a long lead to play fetch with a ball while a distance around dogs. It is very easy to correct him when he is engaged with me. When he is not it takes a bigger correction to snap him out of the stare and get him to focus back on me. or we need to walk in a circle. Max was being really distracted yesterday outside at nose works class a real -pita-as we were just sitting there waiting our turn. So we had practiced our sits and downs with the slip lead collar for corrections when he eyeballing or trying to be a fool and was a fool. I was just excited about it As heard good things about from a few on this forum and the trainer suggested and had an extra one to use for the day as I was not happy with the collar I was using for the day- so I got a chance to use the slip lead with tab/short leash and really liked it. I'm going to get my own slip lead collar now.


----------



## maxtmill

Jax08 said:


> I think your dog is just being a punk. As soon as he starts that, walk up next to him, calmly lift up for a correction and tell him Sit. That's what a choke correction collar is for. CALMLY. No emotion. And you keep doing it until he sits.
> 
> No pulling him back. No calling to him. No treats. You choke up on your leash and you correct him. When he sits quietly then he gets a treat. And you do this each and every time. Zero exceptions.


Please clarify for me - when using a slip lead, you lift up on the lead to give a quick correction. But what do you do if the dog pulls and chokes Himself? Sorry so Stupid!  I have always used a flat nylon or rolled leather collar for walks, but those did not work well for my last big dog, who was a puller.


----------



## Julian G

Jax08 said:


> WHAT?????!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, I would use a prong if this is what is happening. If your dog is pulling that hard then you are taking a high chance of damaging his trachea.
> 
> Second, what else are you doing to modify the behavior? A correction of any kind doesn't do any good if you aren't teaching the behavior you want.


Very true.
get this, safer than a slip, less damage to trachea, and faster learning.
https://www.amazon.com/Herm-Sprenge...E2Q0BDHG3DQ13ZPG0&ie=UTF8&qid=1478452513&sr=1


----------



## maxtmill

So many differing opinions as I read through this Thread! Yes, use a slip lead, no, do not use a slip lead. I used a prong collar on my first shepherd years ago, and he totally ignored the prong and pulled me down the street.Let dogs be dogs and let them sniff along their walk, do not let them sniff. I just try to do what is needed for each particular dog. My main reason for exploring this thread was to try to troubleshoot and get a collar/leash that would help me with a pulling dog. As far as sniffing, I want my dog to enjoy her walks, and sniffing and exploring is part of it. During a training session, no - that is when I want her to focus.


----------



## Jax08

maxtmill said:


> Please clarify for me - when using a slip lead, you lift up on the lead to give a quick correction. But what do you do if the dog pulls and chokes Himself? Sorry so Stupid!  I have always used a flat nylon or rolled leather collar for walks, but those did not work well for my last big dog, who was a puller.


you use a prong


----------



## Chip18

Aww ... talk about the "Walking Dead." As I've said ... a SLL is more of an "Art Form" than a "Science" and some people can't draw.  

A properly used "Prong Collar" is easier to use "for the masses" period end of story. That's why "Pros" use them and train there clients to use them properly. Some "members" don't have a choice of using a "Prong Collar." Prong Collars ... sigh ... are illegal in some countries. And in this country if one does "rescue work" very few rescues and certainly no shelters are going to allow you to put a SLL on one of there dogs ... most "Shelters" would rather PTS, first, then allow anyone to use a "Prong Collar" on one of there dogs. 

And yep if you try and do the sideways thing with a SLL (exactly) like you would a "Prong Collar" then, yeah it's like using a "wet noodle" to correct a dog ... I have heard?? As I have never had that issue myself. And ... if the dog is straining against the noose as it were on a the end of a SLL ...your using it wrong! I have never hung a dog with a SLL??? As I understand ... doing that is for self defense only, with a serious ( upleash dog and yeah you best be good!) Nor have I used upward pressure as a correction for even my most serious (claimed puller.) 

A SLL can be used as a "Rapier or a Battle Ax" ... depends on how it's use. And with gentle upward pressure you can use a SLL as a Dominant Dog Collar but you'd need to "adjust for the slack" (the art part I suppose) as you'd need to read a situation where you anticipate that being necessary. A simple example ... if the dog is beside you and is getting agitated slow upward pressure with the SLL until you just lift his feet will make the point. I understand as I have never had need to do that either. I chose to pop Rocky on the top of the hit with the loose end of the leash instead ... worked out fine. 

But for typical routine minor corrections ... you can make effective "Sideways Corrections" with a "SLL" if done "properly" (more art???) But hey ... "I'm just that guy." I've heard noless than my guy "Jeff Gellman" state "you can't correct a dog properly with a "SLL." Who am I to argue with him ... course he also said ... "thumbs up to those who can." So yeah ... I guess ... knowing how to draw is the secret to a SLL.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK

That is what Caesar Millan does telling people that the dog has submitted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_hypoxia
Caesar Millan is a cheat, and everybody who are involved in dog training can see it.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK

Prong collars are not forbidden in UK, they simply banned from ordinary pet stores for general public, but available for professionals online.

Pinch Dog Collars


----------



## Chip18

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Prong collars are not forbidden in UK, they simply banned from ordinary pet stores for general public, but available for professionals online.
> 
> Pinch Dog Collars


You say they are legal another member from the UK says they aren't?? Makes "Zero" difference to me. I have a choice "here" and the SLL is my tool of choice for reasons I have explained. 

To wit ... you can't use a "Prong Collar" in Rescue or Animal Shelters on there dogs. Even still I don't cast aspersions at "real tools" just becasue I "choose" not to use them. I had to put a qualification there ... the Halti things you know.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK

> the Halti things you know


Halti or No pull harness doesn't help to train anything, they just stop the dog pulling. As long as it is indifferent for your dog what is on the other end of the leash - you, or a wooden log - your dog will continue to pull. Many people try to swap this stage "pay attention to me" by simplifying the task with a prong collar. Prong collars should never be used on walks with untrained dogs. Thus master turns into executioner.


----------



## Chip18

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Halti or No pull harness doesn't help to train anything, they just stop the dog pulling. As long as it is indifferent for your dog what is on the other end of the leash - you, or a wooden log - your dog will continue to pull. Many people try to swap this stage "pay attention to me" by simplifying the task with a prong collar. Prong collars should never be used on walks with untrained dogs. Thus master turns into executioner.


Hmmm most likely a lost in translation thing here?? I was being polite but to put it in simple terms ... yes Halti, E Walk etc yeah they are all crap. 

Not to sure about the untrained never walk on with a "Prong Collar" kinda the whole point of the "Prong Collar" is to train the dog to walk properly??


----------



## WembleyDogsUK

> "Prong Collar" is to train the dog to walk properly??


Prong collar is for correction of already* learned well* verbal commands, it is for perfection. It is also for some dogs who are slow, some dogs try you mentally and they are persistent, what if your bodily weight is equal to that of a dog you handle? These prong collars break with a snappy metal sound, you know, on that thick neck. Dragging such a dog on leash is almost as dragging a lion sculpture off Trafalgar, in this case prong collars don't work. 
My point is: before your dog starts returning his gaze back to your eyes constantly on walks - all gadgets are useless. I simply cannot imagine training a dog who doesn't pay attention to me.


----------



## Chip18

WembleyDogsUK said:


> I simply cannot imagine training a dog who doesn't pay attention to me.


Well ... at least we have a "lack of imagination" in common ... becasue I "cannot imagine" training a dog that is not watching where he is going. 

I must have skipped the part of Kohlers book where he talks about eye contact and engagement as such???


----------



## WembleyDogsUK

> becasue


Have you tried e-collar on yourself first? The consequences are too obvious. LOL


----------

