# Possessive of ball and 2 ball



## Rana (Dec 30, 2015)

Dont want to hijack this thread - but since I have a similar problem thought I will post it. If it needs to be moved to a different thread will be glad to do so and my apologies to the OP if I am hijacking the thread as that is certainly not my intention.

Well, I have a problem with my dog. He is very possessive about the ball. SO I tried the 2 ball trick where he would bring back one and give it up while I threw the second one,and that worked for a while till he decided he wanted both of them. Which means when I throw the ball he goes like a rocket and brings it back but wont give it up but wants me to throw the other and then stand over them and guard them, which means I have to grab one of them from him as he cant fit both in his mouth. I freely admit he is a very strong dog physically and mentally and I know I am not handling it the right way but am at a loss. He is not aggressive towards me at all just does not want to give them up - if it is a tug of war forget it - he loves it. However; when we are back in the house (he carries the ball in his mouth all the way back from the park - about half a mile walk) he will gladly give it up. Not sure what I am doing wrong here, because I do have good control over him and I can call him off if he is chasing something and he will come back and I can have him on a sit stay, call him, go over obstacles, have him sit on a narrow plank, but outing him from a bite or giving the ball - forget it. Any suggestions?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I moved this to its own thread.

I would not throw the second one without his outing the first. If he doesn't want to let the other go, then game ends and everyone goes back into the house. He will eventually learn the game is played by your rules and not his. 

I would also work on the out just in and around the house. If he likes food, trade for food or, if he doesn't, trade for another toy. You can also just hold onto the toy until he lets go (don't fight with him just hold it firm) and when he lets go say "ok" or what ever and let him get it again. I would use a ball on a rope or a tug that you can hold easily. Try not to stand over him. This sometimes works best if you are sitting.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I always approach things by keeping in mind the behavior you're after in the end. With that in mind, I don't ever trade anything with a puppy. She has to bring the ball, toy, bone (she likes to play fetch with her bones as well!) to me and drop it or the game ends. I've found it helpful to have very animated games of fetch in the house where she has to get a toy, bring it to me, drop it, then back up and sit before the game goes on.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> I always approach things by keeping in mind the behavior you're after in the end. With that in mind, I don't ever trade anything with a puppy. She has to bring the ball, toy, bone (she likes to play fetch with her bones as well!) to me and drop it or the game ends. I've found it helpful to have very animated games of fetch in the house where she has to get a toy, bring it to me, drop it, then back up and sit before the game goes on.


Yes, and tug games as well. To release a tug toy I freeze my grip and stop engaging and allow the pup to tug as long as he wants. After a sort while you feel the grip weaken and eventually let go. At that moment I tell him "Give". and start over. This has worked for al my dogs. I am not sure if this technique is good for future Schutzhund work as I imagine that you want a consistent strong hold?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I read something you posted about him, I think inadvertently you may have turned this into a little competition between the two of you. I'd quit trying to snatch anything away, don't contest him for things. The two things I'd think about are like Lisa said with making a trade when he's not in drive and if you can immobilize a tug till he willingly outs it, giving him a rebite for that can help change his perception of the out. 

You can try different things with how you play two ball to avoid that contesting pattern you have, but I'd go with narrowing down the out for now till he shows he wants to give it to you, nothing close to you taking.


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## Rana (Dec 30, 2015)

Thank you for moving it to its own thread. I have tried the waiting game of not giving the 2nd ball and game is over - he was confused and disappointed- tried it for 1 week straight. Waited as long as 15 -20 mins for him to give up the ball. I guess he is way more stubborn and patient than I am - so guess who won. Once we get home he gives up the ball for 2 reasons (I believe) - because he knows we wont play in the house and he is thirsty as heck (we are in Fl) so he knows I wont give him water till he gives it up - so he actually drops the ball - smart cookie. I guess I will have to learn to be more stubborn and patient than him. During bite work - the only way to out him is to choke him out, or even pinch his lips - which does not work too well either as he has a very high pain threshold and in fact it makes him bite even harder. We have even tried the helper go totally motion less and both of us sweating in the heat for a long time and my dog still clamped down on the sleeve - I guess again I probably have to wait him out. Pain and intimidation just does not work with this guy - he just gets stronger - I guess that is a good thing - not when I am on the receiving end. He just turned 2 and I can see his personality is really changing - a lot more serious and intense - especially with men at night and dawn when it is dark - twice he has barked aggressively and in one instance just turned around, tail up, and just stare, and hold his ground till they moved off. In all cases when I told him to calm down he did but would not take his eyes off. So it is not that I dont have control over him, I do. Nor is he an aggressive dog as we have kids walk by and even touch him and he was fine - neutral neither aggressive nor friendly - no issues with bikes either. It is just when he is amped up in prey - that I cant seem to control him - he is not hectic - full calm grips (be it ball or sleeve) just wont let go. I have to get it resolved though because God forbid if we are in a real life situation (and he is showing a side of him that is dead serious) I need to get him to release. My trainer is telling me the same thing - you have a very strong dog you just have to be stronger - I guess I was hoping for some "magic" trick - guess not.


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## Rana (Dec 30, 2015)

I know what I will say now will make you folks think - my dog really has it over me. I have stopped all bite work with him (for the last 4 months) - because I think I was just aggravating a problem and making no progress. So decided I will give it a break for a while so I have a better idea how to handle this. It did not help that my trainer relocated so now I have to find a new trainer. Plus with the serious side I have noticed in the last month or so I need to rethink the bite work as I dont want to create a problem and ruin an excellent dog. The more I think the real problem is me and I need to figure how to resolve this. All your advice is really helpful and leads to believe that I need to go back to square and start from scratch.

Just give you a reference point - when my pup was 6 months old and I took him to my trainer to get him evaluated (he does not do any sport primarily LE and govt work) he wanted to check my dog's dominance level. So he had him on a training leash (not a prong or choke chain) the one that tightens if the dog pulls and tried to do a "platz" with him by putting pressure on him. He casually mentioned while he was putting pressure that there has been cases where he had to wait 20 mins before a dog would go down despite the increasing pressure. Well it took 29 minutes (yes we were timing it) in July in Fl before he finally went down. That's when he told me - you have your hands full - and said if you ever want to give him up he was first in line. But he also mentioned your dog is very closely bonded to you and even with the pressure around his neck would not take his eyes off of you. Which is very true - he is really close to me and really in tune with me (more so than I am to him it seems).


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sounds like you have a great dog there!

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm very curious. It seems to me that the technique of trading for things is more often than not suggested by people who are involved in dog sports, IPO/SCH specifically. So I can't help but wonder if there's some upstream advantage to doing this, as opposed to teaching the out as a rule for continuing play early on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rana said:


> Just give you a reference point - when my pup was 6 months old and I took him to my trainer to get him evaluated (he does not do any sport primarily LE and govt work) he wanted to check my dog's dominance level. So he had him on a training leash (not a prong or choke chain) the one that tightens if the dog pulls and tried to do a "platz" with him by putting pressure on him. He casually mentioned while he was putting pressure that there has been cases where he had to wait 20 mins before a dog would go down despite the increasing pressure. Well it took 29 minutes (yes we were timing it) in July in Fl before he finally went down. That's when he told me - you have your hands full - and said if you ever want to give him up he was first in line. But he also mentioned your dog is very closely bonded to you and even with the pressure around his neck would not take his eyes off of you. Which is very true - he is really close to me and really in tune with me (more so than I am to him it seems).


I would never teach a down that way. Or anything else. There is no reason to break a dog and dominate him like that. EVER. 

Luring, rewarding and teaching the dog to want to do it. Work is play-Play is work. You have to find the balance of want to and have to.

I have been fortunate to have one of the best trainers in the country as my mentor. Still fortunate now that she's retiring to have another national level trainer with similar methods. Neither would do that to a puppy.

That's old school and outdated. :angryfire:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I moved this to its own thread.
> 
> I would not throw the second one without his outing the first. If he doesn't want to let the other go, then game ends and everyone goes back into the house. He will eventually learn the game is played by your rules and not his.
> 
> I would also work on the out just in and around the house. If he likes food, trade for food or, if he doesn't, trade for another toy. You can also just hold onto the toy until he lets go (don't fight with him just hold it firm) and when he lets go say "ok" or what ever and let him get it again. I would use a ball on a rope or a tug that you can hold easily. Try not to stand over him. This sometimes works best if you are sitting.


This and what Steve said.

Use balls with ropes. make sure you have hold of the rope of the ball in his mouth, without tugging or applying pressure. Out him and he gets the other ball. But you can't just throw one ball and expect him to drop the other if he has high possession. He will learn that letting do restarts the game and gets him the other ball.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I think you may be getting some bad advice with this dog Rana. What I'm reading sounds like people are telling you that you need to make this dog do everything and judging from the 2 dogs you mentioned in Denmark, I think you need some help with being smarter, not stronger. Some people may be able to win every fight with a strong dog, but most of us have to be pretty careful about that. Could be the problems with 2 ball and outing are coming from some overall conflict, not the toy itself. If you're choking this dog off bites, personally, I think its good you aren't doing protection with him right now. 

Its not too often my advice is you need to find a trainer, but I do think you need to find a different trainer.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Sounds like you have a great dog there!
> 
> I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm very curious. It seems to me that the technique of trading for things is more often than not suggested by people who are involved in dog sports, IPO/SCH specifically. So I can't help but wonder if there's some upstream advantage to doing this, as opposed to teaching the out as a rule for continuing play early on.


I don't trade for an out, but I do the immobilize and the rebite, and I play 2 ball for creating a desire to run to me. I do things that way because its fun and I like how it makes it easy to shape a few things later on.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Yes, and tug games as well. To release a tug toy I freeze my grip and stop engaging and allow the pup to tug as long as he wants. After a sort while you feel the grip weaken and eventually let go. At that moment I tell him "Give". and start over. This has worked for al my dogs. I am not sure if this technique is good for future Schutzhund work as I imagine that you want a consistent strong hold?


Ha, I'd like to invite you to come try that with my male. Me being a larger man tried that technique, I just got pulled around. He'd hold all day if I let him. 

OP, what kind of ball are you using? I like ones with a rope. And it doesn't hurt to put a tab on the dog. 

What I did was throw one ball, call back using the other ball as a reward that he gets when he drops the ball. 
This is the world's worst video. And don't mind the awful training going on. But hope helps show what I'm trying to say:


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have been doing the freeze and lock up in a sleeve, with a dog at club who didn't want to out. It isn't impossible you just have to hunker down and try and stay still so the dog can't self satisfy fighting and moving the sleeve. I would think it could be done with a ball also. 
But I bet there is probably a lot easier options available. Is there something the dog likes but maybe not as much as he likes the ball. If so use that at home when he gets consistent then add ball at home, if dog doesn't want to out the put him up. **** look disappointed but eventually he'll learn that if he plays by your rules "outing" the the game continues. Increase stimulation and environment changes slowly.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Ha, I'd like to invite you to come try that with my male. Me being a larger man tried that technique, I just got pulled around. He'd hold all day if I let him.


 That's why I start this with pups so I don't have this issue later on when they are stronger than me. :grin2:


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

I didn't read any replies, so sorry if it's already been said

My family's old lab never learned Drop

I taught my pup by sticking my index finger in her mouth and touching her tongue. She didn't like it enough that she would drop whatever it was. So she brings me a ball, I'd grab the ball and say drop, if no drop, I'd do the finger stick and then praise and treat when she dropped the ball. She's still not perfect, but she's getting it. Maybe need to do more treat work to get her better as that seemed to work well


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Once or twice with Deja when she was getting reluctant and took too long to release the toy, I left her alone outside with her "precious price" for about 5 minutes. I got the results I wanted; quick releases without a physical interaction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, that was Deja. Not all dogs are like that. Many of the harder working lines are not. You can't compare one dog to the next and think the same technique will work. You said you start doing this as a puppy. Everyone starts it as a puppy. The OP's dog IS a puppy and it's not working. I train with a national competitor who has had to work 2 balls because the puppy's possession is so high. Her experience with working would only be surpassed on this thread by Lisa and Steve. She worked it much like Lisa described. but if you've never worked it and you've never seen it, then a person could easily be doing something like inadvertently putting pressure on the string that will increase the possession in the dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Well, that was Deja. Not all dogs are like that. Many of the harder working lines are not. You can't compare one dog to the next and think the same technique will work. You said you start doing this as a puppy. Everyone starts it as a puppy. The OP's dog IS a puppy and it's not working. I train with a national competitor who has had to work 2 balls because the puppy's possession is so high. Her experience with working would only be surpassed on this thread by Lisa and Steve. She worked it much like Lisa described. but if you've never worked it and you've never seen it, then a person could easily be doing something like inadvertently putting pressure on the string that will increase the possession in the dog.


Thank you for clarifying.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:thumbup:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I kinda look at these things as a perception issue. I don't want to try and sound too clever here, but what I want is my dog to see the value in outing or giving something to me. If I put it in his head that I'm taking it, or I let him think he can keep it when he wants, there's always going to be that type of conflict over things like that. Maybe not with a softer, more compliant dog. But when you have a stronger temperament, the more these things are his idea, the easier it is. Especially if your going to use toys to train, you're automatically creating desire for the toy, other wise it wouldn't work. To change their perception to the interaction with you including a toy, all the pieces have to have some value.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Armistice said:


> I didn't read any replies, so sorry if it's already been said
> 
> My family's old lab never learned Drop
> 
> I taught my pup by sticking my index finger in her mouth and touching her tongue. She didn't like it enough that she would drop whatever it was. So she brings me a ball, I'd grab the ball and say drop, if no drop, I'd do the finger stick and then praise and treat when she dropped the ball. She's still not perfect, but she's getting it. Maybe need to do more treat work to get her better as that seemed to work well


It hasn't been said Armistice, Lol. If you did manage to try that with this dog, you may end up not counting to 10 anymore.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Thank you for clarifying.


Except the OP's dog is 2 yrs old...

From what I gather from Steve's comment and Cloudpump's video it appears like the second ball is used to get the dog to return quickly (correct me if I'm wrong there!). I can see where getting the dog into that "quick return" habit would be useful later in on...

EDIT: didn't see the last 2 posts before making mine...so is getting the dog to return quickly a part of the motivation, or is it just to build value?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

tim_s_adams said:


> Except the OP's dog is 2 yrs old...
> 
> From what I gather from Steve's comment and Cloudpump's video it appears like the second ball is used to get the dog to return quickly (correct me if I'm wrong there!). I can see where getting the dog into that "quick return" habit would be useful later in on...


the 2nd ball can help them to return more quickly but it's primary purpose in most cases is to get the dog to drop the one they have upon return. As soon as the dog drops the ball, you can immediately reward by throwing the one in your hand. 

OP, the idea is that you want to make the ball in your hand more interesting than the one in the dog's mouth. Ignore the dog. Toss the ball you've got from hand to hand. As soon as the mouth opens, YES!!! and toss the one you've got.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its possible I'm reading too much between the lines, but I don't think the control and obedience Cloud has in the game, is something this dog is ready for. I picture him just snatching up the first ball so the op can't get it and then chasing the thrown ball, to just posses both of them. A clean, willing out, then shape what Cloud has is what I would look at.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Rana said:


> Thank you for moving it to its own thread. I have tried the waiting game of not giving the 2nd ball and game is over - he was confused and disappointed- tried it for 1 week straight. Waited as long as 15 -20 mins for him to give up the ball. I guess he is way more stubborn and patient than I am - so guess who won. During bite work - the only way to out him is to choke him out, or even pinch his lips - which does not work too well either as he has a very high pain threshold and in fact it makes him bite even harder. We have even tried the helper go totally motion less and both of us sweating in the heat for a long time and my dog still clamped down on the sleeve - I guess again I probably have to wait him out. Pain and intimidation just does not work with this guy - he just gets stronger


This was my dog to a tee (minus the choking him out) only with the rag on the flirt pole. He knew "out" inside the house. But when we got outside with the flirt pole...whole other story. I would try to get it back and it became a game to him. He would not "out" under any circumstances. When his adult teeth came in and he clamped down on the rag, nothing but the jaws of life could get the rag out of his mouth. And he was deadly calm about the whole situation.

I finally stopped doing the flirt pole entirely for about two weeks. I tried to transition to the ball with little to no luck. He would go after the ball and bring it back but his heart wasn't in it. He then sometimes stopped going after the ball after a few repetitions even when using two balls. But he would circle the flirt pole. I then decided to try a different method. I did what others suggested. As soon as he got the rag, I became immobile. I didn't tug back...and I waited the dog out. First time, it took 36 minutes. Once he dropped it, I said "out" and gave it back to him. We repeated the behavior. And I never ended the game when I took the rag back so he didn't associate me getting the rag back with the game ending. Now when he grabs the rag, he immediately lays down and outs and waits for the game to resume again.




> It is just when he is amped up in prey - that I cant seem to control him - he is not hectic - full calm grips (be it ball or sleeve) just wont let go.


That was my dog and he's only 11 months. He's got an iron clad grip and doesn't like to let go. But I've made a lot of progress.



Jax08 said:


> This and what Steve said.
> 
> Use balls with ropes. make sure you have hold of the rope of the ball in his mouth, without tugging or applying pressure. Out him and he gets the other ball. But you can't just throw one ball and expect him to drop the other if he has high possession. He will learn that letting do restarts the game and gets him the other ball.


And that solves my problem with balls. A ball with a rope. LOL



Steve Strom said:


> I don't trade for an out, but I do the immobilize and the rebite


That's what worked for me.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Its possible I'm reading too much between the lines, but I don't think the control and obedience Cloud has in the game, is something this dog is ready for. I picture him just snatching up the first ball so the op can't get it and then chasing the thrown ball, to just posses both of them. A clean, willing out, then shape what Cloud has is what I would look at.


I agree. It was the best example I had. 
If you notice, he has a tab on. 
D'jango did that for a while. And I would hold the leash and work away from the dropped ball, until he started to learn control. 
Not the best at explaining my thoughts. Lol


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I didn't notice the tab, only the willingness he shows.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IllinoisNative said:


> And that solves my problem with balls. A ball with a rope. LOL


See cloudpump's video above. Only you will immediately reward with the other ball instead of asking for obedience because your goal is to get the release and the game.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

if I have to, I step on the dropped ball


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A possessive dog can be awesome, because they want the toy and are easy to motivate for work. 

I was having issues with the out. I tried two-ball and it worked sometimes. And mostly not. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I actually don't think so, the dog was bred to possess and guard an object, and it can be hard to trick them into wanting another ball more than the one they are possessing at the moment. 

So I took time and taught "out" clearly and without any trades. I used basic training with guidelines- correction for not outing, immediate reward when outed properly. It didn't take long, but I had to just sit there with the dog and get it done. Once the out was in place, speed and engagement were easy enough. 

I don't enjoy training much when the dog just runs to a corner and self-rewards with the toy or tug. Many great working dogs will do this if not trained properly. I also completely agree that you have to make engaging with the handler part of the reward. One mistake I used to make was to throw the ball too far away as a reward- balls on a string are a great way to reward the dog without sending her away from you for a fetch and then giving her a chance to think... hey, maybe now I'll start a game of possession and keep away...


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## Rana (Dec 30, 2015)

Hi Steve, Jax08,

Thanks for your input. I tend to agree with both of you and I started having doubts with my trainer too - that's another reason I stopped all bitework. My dog as you can see is very strong. He has no problems with the "platz" or "sitz" or "blieb" with me. In fact, when we are playing his "sitz" is lightning quick and he hits the deck. I can even make him do that while we just go out for a walk so he knows that these commands for every day use and not just for games. His prey drive can be over the top - when I get back from work and he knows it is play time - it is a mad house - literally bouncing off the wall - literally - this dog has climbed over an 8 foot fence to get to me - so guess what I stopped the obstacle course with him - as I did not want him to learn going over walls - he has leaped up and snatched the ball out of my hand as I was holding up - I am 6 ft tall - he just came barrelling down - and just took a flying leap and he just buzzed by my head. With ball and sleeve is where the problem comes and I think what you are saying about the conflict is true - still have to figure out how to resolve it.


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## Rana (Dec 30, 2015)

Hi Cloud,

Saw your video with your dog - I do exactly the same as you do. Have 2 balls with the ropes. As I mentioned, he did what your dog did for a week and then decided he wont do it - and wanted both the balls. I have cuts and bruises on my arms and hands because of accidental bites - he never bites hard just to get at the balls. His speed is pretty awesome and he comes barreling down at you to get the 2nd ball with the first in his mouth. Also, he can go on for ever - while still doing training with my old trainer the only dog that kept up with him was the trainer's Malinois - the rest just gave up after a while.


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## Rana (Dec 30, 2015)

Hi I tried the same trick with "Deja" with my dog Zeus - leaving him with the ball and going in. Came back out an hour later - he still had the ball between his paws and grabbed it in his mouth and ready to start.

All, I just wanted everyone to know that the breeder had warned me about Zeus (based on what she saw and his lines) when she selected him for me and was almost reluctant to give him up- the original breeder in Denmark said the same thing about his bloodlines too. He is an awesome dog and I believe I took some wrong steps with him - i.e. trainer, but he is totally unfazed by it and has shrugged it off. In this case the issue is clearly me - and I truely appreciate all the advice provided here and they are valuable. I just have a very strong dog and also very hard (very high pain tolerance) but also very eager to please - just not the ball sleeve thing.


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