# Neutering Confusion



## networkn (May 28, 2008)

Hi There! 

My sister (A vet) suggested I neuter our 9 week old GS Puppy at 6 months, as soon as he can lift his leg, but the breeder (A well respected breeder and the president of the South Island GSD Club), is adamant no earlier than 12 months old. 

Both are sources I trust, I don't want to stunt my Dogs growth and we want him to be capable of protecting my family when I am not at home, but we are reluctant to put up with un-neutered behaviors.

Information or advice would be appreciated.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I personally would try not to neuter a dog before he's 18 to 24 months of age.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

I agree with Gayle, you don't want to neuter a male before than so that they grow to the size a male is supose to get. I would wait until they get to at least 18 months before you neuter them. A female is different.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

Oh boy you are going to get both answers here too... I was forced to have Jesse neutered at 6 months by shelter and daycare. , oh well we have seen some good changes since then, ie he doesn't hump every dog anymore, he is more devoted and loving to us. I still believe that he will still protect me if I am in any danger at home or else where. Just as an example he is good with people and dogs and all living things, but god help you if you come into my house when I am sleeping. My husband came home from work late quietly and Jesse was sleeping with me on the bed and I didn't hear him but woke up to Jesse on top of me, hair up and growling and barking toward the bedroom door and didn't stop till my husband identified himself. Jesse at 6 months was ready to give his life for me.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

You won't stunt his growth by neutering as early neutering makes a dog slightly taller (by as much as half an inch) than neutering later, rather than shorter. Has to do with when the horomones close the long bones. 

Is it in your contract from your breeder? If it stipulates you need to wait, that might settle the issue. 

The main difference around here we notice with early neutering versus later is marking.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Hormones are an important part of proper mental and physical development, not just reproduction. Therefore, I am of the opinion it is always best to allow the dog to go through puberty and fully mature before neutering. That means no earlier than18-24 months old.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I think it depends on you and your dog. I think it depends on what kind of leader you are and how dominate your dog is towards people. 

I have a 15 month old intact male and I have no behavior problems. He does not mark in the house. He doesn't really even mark outside on walks. He tried to pull to trees and all things vertical at first, but I decided we were walking and I wasn't going to allow 14 pee breaks on our walks so I don't stop anymore and neither does he. There is no humping. I don't allow it. It's bad manners and should be treated as such. When we meet other dogs, I ask him to sit or platz and the command is to be held. I don't have to worry about roaming, because he's never loose without me. He is starting to be more interested in females in heat, but we don't encounter those very often, so it's not a huge deal. I find as he gets older, he doesn't always get along with all dogs. He is not dog aggessive and does well with my friends dogs, but definitely not taking him to a dog park anytime soon. He seems to attract trouble, but he never starts it. His high prey drive can also be troublesome with small dogs that run and dart quickly (but this would be in him regardless).

I don't think protectiveness has much of anything to do with neutering vs. intact. There are plenty of neutered dogs that will bark when something strange is going on. As to whether or not you dog will confront an intruder has more to do with your dog's personality I think. So far, my guy will let just about anyone in the house without any real concern (maintenance men, friends, family etc). But he still has some maturing to do, so we'll see. 

I think if you can wait, you should. I understand vets who want to neuter early. It certainly controls the pet population and stops accidents if you are not always with youur dog or expect to let him loose. I don't think it really changes personality/behavior apart from the peeing and the females.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Good points on all the posts.

I agree about not neutering before a year, whether it is male or female. The hormones aid the growth plates and help the dog develop. 

I have had males neutered at 6 months and at 9 months. My current male pup is a year old. I see no difference in behavior, no male related issues at all. The hormones have no relation to his ability to protect you. My neutered males have been just as protective as the intact male is. 

I think the vets are just taught that early neuter equals fewer "oops" litters and they endorse it for that reason. You can still respect your vet and disagree with his/her stand on this. 

My contract requires me to wait until 12 months to neuter Havoc. My vet suggested 6 months also. I highly respect her and I simply explained to her that I was obligated under contract to wait a year and that I had no issue with him being intact. She never mentioned it again. I am neutering him in a few weeks, he will be just short of 13 months. 

You can explain to your vet what your stance is on this and that you do intend to neuter at a later time and if they are a good vet they will respect that.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Don't forget too that some lines take it seems for-e-ver to mature. I have an 18 month old Czech male who's response to a stranger in the evelator grabbing and squooooshing his muzzle into ameoba-like shapes with black leather gloved hands, was to lower his ears and try to kiss around his muzzle being squooshed. That's a puppy response. No marking indoors, not even any marking on walks yet. His whole vibe is pure "puppy" still. These are just his lines, they mature very late. 

Know the lines your dog comes from, to give you an idea when you would neuter, if you do choose to neuter.


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## ArtistInNature (Mar 20, 2008)

Chris Zink, the well-known canine structure expert, spoke at length on this topic when she was here last summer - my vet was more on the side of earlier S/N, but Chris convinced her otherwise during the seminar.

For a thorough, excellent review of the topic, check out the National Animal Interest Alliance website (www.naiaonline.org) - their home page has a link to a PDF on the long-term health risks of early spay/neuter.


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildHormones are an important part of proper mental and physical development, not just reproduction. Therefore, I am of the opinion it is always best to allow the dog to go through puberty and fully mature before neutering. That means no earlier than18-24 months old.


I agree totally. I've heard it referred to as "locked in puppyhood" if they are neutered before then, and I have two 3-year-olds to prove it. They were neutered at 6 months and are still immature. One dog would make me question this, but having 2 brothers acting the same convinces me of this.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyI think it depends on you and your dog. I think it depends on what kind of leader you are and how dominate your dog is towards people.


I agree. I always tell people that it depends more on them than the dog.

If you can wait until the dog matures, that would be ideal. If you will have trouble controlling your dog when an in season female is around or in the neighborhood, have him neutered before there is a litter of unwanted/unplanned pups out there.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am not seeing any of my males locked in puppyhood. Two are quite serious, actually. One is goofy (the Lab gene







) and the other is perpetually trying to mount my spayed female, so if you looked at that group for any proof of anything, you'd be more confused!

Look at true research not sponsored by any pro or con groups, your lifestyle, your ability to manage a dog in general and a dog with a desire to mate specifically in deciding when to have him neutered. 

But our anectdotes on how our dogs act are really not valid in terms of meaning. 



> Quote:I agree. I always tell people that it depends more on them than the dog.
> 
> If you can wait until the dog matures, that would be ideal. If you will have trouble controlling your dog when an in season female is around or in the neighborhood, have him neutered before there is a litter of unwanted/unplanned pups out there.


Jeesh! I didn't even need to post-that is exactly what I wanted to say.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Yes but Jean you always make it sound so much nicer.


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANBut our anectdotes on how our dogs act are really not valid in terms of meaning.


Okay - sorry I brought up my experience in the matter.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I still vote for your post, Vinnie!

The reason why I think stories are nice, and funny, but not really accurate for purposes of making decisions is because there are SO many factors other than the neutering that determine what they act like. 

So while it's interesting and may even be why your dogs act the way they do in some way, you never know if someone is going to read this and say my gosh! I don't want my dog to be like that! Or vice versa, and then do something to the dog and have them not turn out in the way they intended and wonder what the heck! 

So for your two immature that you are convinced (that wording can convince others too-and I am not trying to be really obnoxious though I realize I am annoying me so I must be annoying you!) are a result of neutering, I can counter with 3 of 4 who act quite adult, all neutered under 10 months. The goofy one...I still say is the lab gene! He's silly. BUT, has a serious side. 

So I might look and say that two males raised together as litter mates without a female living with them (if that is the case) can juvenilize them. Toss in a female, or another dog, and you may see different dogs! 

Sorry-again, I am not trying to be a total pain but do want people to evaluate information well.


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## GrandJan (Aug 11, 2006)

Jean, I do understand what you’re saying and why you’re being cautious, but after I had my boys neutered (and we did it at a young age because we have an unsprayed female [with MegaE] living with us), I did more research on the pros and cons of early neutering, and “lack of maturity” was one of the cons mentioned more than once.

I can’t even quite describe what I mean by their immaturity. They both still try to mate (and have managed at least once, I think) with our unspayed female. I have no doubt that they would bite if they or we were threatened. It’s the lack of drive or serious work ethic (?) that I’m talking about. Would they be high-drive working dogs had they not been neutered early? Who knows? I rather doubt it, but I think their intensity would have been at a higher level. Does this make sense?

I do agree that every dog is different, and absolutely agree (proof positive) that a dog should be neutered if the possibility of unwanted puppies exists.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GrandJanI do agree that every dog is different, and absolutely agree (proof positive) that a dog should be neutered if the possibility of unwanted puppies exists.












Seriously-what is the problem with that! My foster Jaeger has to be more interested in Ava (spayed) than any intact male ever has been. Well, not ever since she was taken to the shelter with a litter of puppies, but you know what I mean! 

Thanks for understanding-I appreciate it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you do not own an intact bitch, I cannot see a problem with having the puppy remain intact until it is 18-144 months old. 

Not all intact dogs lift their legs. Some neutered dogs lift their legs. It depends. If you have an intact bitch, plan on your intact dog marking in your intact house when she is in season.

A dog can smell a bitch in heat up to two miles away. It is certainly odd that no one in my corner of the county owns an intact bitch but me. Oh yeah, there is another breeder a few hundred feet down the road. Must be down-wind. 

Dogs may whine and carry on when there are bitches in season if they are both mature and know what they are missing. Most dogs I know do not have any problems.

Roaming is not an issue, because if your intention is to let your dog run free, you will be tarred and feathered and run off of the board on a rail. 

Rushie turned two in January. He has never humped ANYONE's leg. He is not aggressive, excitable, hyper, or even idiotic when my girls are in heat. He and Dubya (4 year old intact dog) will grunt at each other. It is a small price to pay for keeping his hormones where they belong, and letting him grow up with the benefit of all the parts he was born with. Rushie has never grumped or growled at another dog, even in close quarters at shows or training classes. 

If you want to get your dog neutered. Get him neutered. It is totally unnecessary though. 

Oh, Rushie does display the family jewels quite often -- usually in training classes when everyone is looking. Cujo (3 year old GSD owned by my parents) does this and he was neutered at 18 weeks old. Cujo grew to be 3 inches taller and than his father. 

I will not have a dog neutered that young again. Since I have the means to contain my dogs, I will not neuter again unless there is a life threatening condition that requires it.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

Vets are all about early speutering. It doesn't mean they are right, it also doesn't mean they are wrong.

The unwanted pet population compells many people to speuter as early as possible.

Me...I'm waiting until my girl is 2 years old, and I've told her vet this. EVERY TIME we go there I am asked when we're spaying her, and given a printed up quote. 

Last time I simply told the tech that she's wasting their paper on me.


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## cafrhe (Nov 4, 2002)

I have had 2 males both ended up neutered. My first guy was neutered at less than 6 months (vet said--the smaller he is the less you pay for anesthesia!). I had no idea there was a debate about waiting. I have always believed in neutering to help avoid unwanted pets, so early was fine with me.

Roland very rarely marked. But he was a very serious and mature dog. He was very protective and the kind of dog you didnt mess with (but also very good with kids and small animals--go figure!!)

My current guy, Griffin, got neutered at 2+ years and is a total immature goober at 3yrs old. He is still somewhat puppyish, has no apparent protective instinct--he is silent(no barking at all, except for sar training) but he also doesnt even get up when the doorbell rings or someone comes in the house (I do sometimes tell him he is a waste of a big scarey gsd!). He seems to be maturing a little bit now. He does mark tho, he started early and stopped briefly with the neuter, but now marks a lot. He did hump a little bit before the neuter, but that was the only annoying male habit he had.

And Griffin is taller and more slender than Roland was....

I know I can handle an intact male, so I will continue to wait until they are about 2yrs, but I also have no issue with anyone getting it done early. We have way too many animals killed each day to preach that most pet animals should wait 1-2 yrs until being neutered.


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## LavalK9 (Jun 14, 2006)

Because we wanted to let our dog grow, we told ourselves that we would wait to have him neutered. Well, Wyatt Earp is now 2 years and 4 months old and we are asking ourselves if it would be best to have it done soon.

Wyatt is a friendly guy with people and he would like very much to play with all the dogs we meet. When we go for a walk, he doesn't mark, I just stop once to let him smell and pee. Every week we attend an obedience class because we practice for a CD title, he wants to smell every dog so, I have to work very much on his attention toward me, we're getting there slowly but we improved a lot. I wonder if he would be less interested by the other dogs if he was neutered,

Our main concern though is that, should he smells a bitch in season passing on the sidewalk near our house and he is in the backyard, will he do anything in his power to get to her. The same thing if I am walking with him, will he just forget about me and try to get to the female dog. 
Can an intact male just ignore a female in season for a while and one day just get the idea that he should be doing something when the opportunity strikes.

We always had female dogs in the past, it's our first male and we would like to make the right decision about this matter.

Thanks for reading this!


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## kootenaydogs (Feb 5, 2008)

Here's a link which may be of interest:

Determining the Best Age at which to Spay or Neuter

http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/3-23-08DiscoveriesArticle.pdf


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Claire222 Our main concern though is that, should he smells a bitch in season passing on the sidewalk near our house and he is in the backyard, will he do anything in his power to get to her. The same thing if I am walking with him, will he just forget about me and try to get to the female dog.
> Can an intact male just ignore a female in season for a while and one day just get the idea that he should be doing something when the opportunity strikes.


Unfortunately there is no way to know if he will ever decide he needs to get to a female in season until it either happens, OR he is an OLD dog and has never done it.

I have an 8 yo intact male. He has NEVER gone looking for a female in season. I live on a "farm" and have no fenced yard and there are 2 breeders that live within 2 miles of me so they OBVIOUSLY have bitches in season. My dog has NEVER even attempted to leave the property.

As far as the wanting to smell all other dogs, that is becuase he is a DOG, that is what dogs do neutered or not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Take your dog to obedience classes right from the start, when he is a puppy. He will not drag you across the street to get the girlie. If your fence is not secure, make it so. Other things will tempt a dog: deer, children running and screaming, squirrels, cats, bordom, brats teasing him through the fence. I do not leave my dogs in my fenced yard. When I go they are in kennels inside my fenced yard, seven of these have fencing on top. 

I find this particularly humorous because right now I would trade my I-theeth to have my dog drag me to get to Babsy. I started him out in puppy classes and obedience classes, I socialized him like crazy, I took him to shows, and titled him, I got a CGC on him. I dragged him to the vet for testing: Good hips and normal elbows, I didn't breed him back in the spring because he hadn't had is x-rays yet. Now I have a loveable, solid, healthy 2 1/2 year old dog with NO desire to breed my bitch! Ok, maybe he is just a tiny bit lazy / disinterested. He plays with her, they sniff, they lay down together, they do some grooming, then maybe he will try... ah, no too hot, too noisy, too distracted, too tired, too hungry! 

I just paid $455 for bordetalla, Von Wilbrand's Disease, and Progesterone testing!!! On top of last month's small fortune for OFA's. And it looks like I will come up empty AGAIN!!! I could AI but, well, my wallet is in shock and won't open. 

It's funny because when you own a stud you have to be careful not to correct them for humping and to make sure they are comfortable and confident, check their sperm count, and all that jazz, when you know perfectly well that that old, matted, stray BC mix will hop on your bitch, slam bam thank you ma'am and produce 14 puppies without batting an eye. 

I do not have the least worry about Rushie dragging me to meet a strange bitch, even now that he has had an introduction to canine reproductive behavior. He is not afraid of dogs and does great in close quarters with them, but he does not find it necessary to sniff and play with every dog or bitch he sees. 

I love my dog, but if I had to do it over again, I would not own a dog, only bitches. Anyone want a big, mostly black, PET???


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> ...
> I have an 8 yo intact male. He has NEVER gone looking for a female in season. I live on a "farm" and have no fenced yard and there are 2 breeders that live within 2 miles of me so they OBVIOUSLY have bitches in season. My dog has NEVER even attempted to leave the property.
> ...


Slider, intact, is 5-1/2 has never had problems either. BUT Tex, who was neutered for years, lost his virginity when he got out an open gate and bred with the bitch across the street.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> It's funny because when you own a stud you have to be careful not to correct them for humping and to make sure they are comfortable and confident, check their sperm count, and all that jazz, when you know perfectly well that that old, matted, stray BC mix will hop on your bitch, slam bam thank you ma'am and produce 14 puppies without batting an eye.

















Sad but TRUE!


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: chuckI agree with Gayle, you don't want to neuter a male before than so that they grow to the size a male is supose to get. I would wait until they get to at least 18 months before you neuter them. A female is different.


I would like to know how is a female in regards to this topic.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Physically, for whatever reason a female does not have the potential health problems a neutered male does. I have no idea why, but there are plenty of studies that can be accessed on the Internet.

As for the original poster before you neuter your dog please realize the most recent studies on neutering a male, whatever age, are not beneficial to the dog's health.

And no, I have already posted the 2007 and 2008 studies on this topic, and probably should have saved those. But I am not going to take the time to find them again, you can. 

If you decide to neuter the dog, yes 18-24 months is best.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think it's more that there are more pros to early spay in females than males so it's more of an open question which is "best".

In both cases early spaying/neutering (before puberty is over) can mean the dog ends up being slightly taller than a dog that isn't altered or isn't altered until later. But slightly, I think the numbers are around half an inch. 

Healthwise, there are clear benefits to spaying before the first heat or as soon as possible after it to reduce the risk of pyometra, mammary, and other reproductive cancers. 

There are some health benefits with males but there you're preventing things that aren't all the common anyway. 

In both males and females there's some evidence that early S/N increases the risks of certain cancers. 

Below is a link to an article about one of them. Keep in mind that they selected Rottweilers as a study animal because they have such a high incidence of this kind of cancer in the breed so the actual risk in GSDs could be different.

Osteosarcoma study 

There was another really good overview study that someone posted recently that seemed to do a good job on the pros and cons. You have to be careful just googling it because there are a lot of sites with clear agendas in both directions that are promoting their message without a lot of science to back it up. 

So... there's not really a clear answer and it basically comes down to is which health and behavioral issues you're more concerned about. There are trade offs either way and great dog owners on both sides of the debate.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

So many show people have dogs that aren't neutered, never get neutered and live happy lives well over 10 years. For this reason, I am not really into the spay neuter thing. I can control my dogs. I have two intact young males, and so far they get along great. I may get a female, that means I will have to double my efforts. I have outdoor kennels, metal and plastic crates, closets large enough to hold crates and extra bedrooms. 

For pet owners, I don't think most will be this careful, so spay early, and neuter when you can.


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