# PPD's vs Sport Dogs



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have been watching a lot of youtube videos lately( I don't know why, they usually anger me) and I keep hearing all these protection trainers say they train PPD's not sport dogs. They say it so derogatory like sport dogs are not trained to bite. Now I have only visited a handfull of clubs from different protection sports but I really am not sure what they mean. Do the majority of protection sports not really train dogs to bite? What are some of the training differences between a PPD and sport dog? From what I see in videos is a lot of the same stuff being done. So now I'm confused. I figure it was on the internet so it must be true.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe because they feel their training scenario's aren't pattern type training? I don't know, I train my dog in IPO and he isn't what I'd consider a sport dog, he'd probably do better in the SDA, KNPV or PSA style of training. 
I think they are all trained to grip/aggress/transition?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Maybe because they feel their training scenario's aren't pattern type training? I don't know, I train my dog in IPO and he isn't what I'd consider a sport dog, he'd probably do better in the SDA, KNPV or PSA style of training.
> I think they are all trained to grip/aggress/transition?


That's the way I see it. In my SchH and SDA clubs, we don't train much pattern at all. In my SDA club, they say once the dog has figured out the "pattern" it's over. So we train the scenarios but in different orders and change up what's happen in it a little. Actually we are trialing this month and have worked a pattern only a few times. My GF is trialing Heidi in two different classes and so she could practice, she worked the patterns with dogs that had already done it. Both of the clubs I attend don't train all in prey. They prefere active aggression from the dogs. They also don't tolorate equipment oriented dogs. As helpers we are often working a dog without any gear (except maybe a stick/whip) and then grab whatever is close (sleeves and suits are scattered all over like a war zone) to give a grip. We also don't only train on a field. We will work where ever someone wants. We just like to play. I think we only use the titles for some type of structure haha.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

On another note, I would think even PPD's train scenarios. Trying to expose the dogs to as many different "pictures" as possible right?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've only done the pattern once and that was last week at training. I need to do it a couple more times(without my dog!) before we trial so I know it better. 
My dog isn't equipment oriented whatsoever, but doesn't bite dirty either, and yea, training in different locations/scenarios is best. I wish there was an SDA trial nearby, they've become far and few between.
Last year I did a protection K9 challenge, and never worked my dog in any of the exercises they suprised us with. For never doing any of it, my dog did me proud. He'd only been on a suit a couple of times, they offered the sleeve so he didn't target their body/armpit.
It was a blast and I look forward to it this year. http://s207.photobucket.com/user/onyxpup/library/Michigan K-9 Challenge


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm having a lot more fun in SDA. I'm still doing IPO for the sake of doing it and because it's the most recognized. 

Just find people that want to train SDA and do it! Rules have changed and you don't have to be an affiliated club to hold a trial anymore. Even my IPO club is going to hold an SDA trial this year.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What if my club isn't affiliated with any organization? But we are all in the SDA database? We'd just need to bring in a judge?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> What if my club isn't affiliated with any organization? But we are all in the SDA database? We'd just need to bring in a judge?


Yes just a judge and certified decoys. You might be supprised how many people would show up as well. My group is going from CA to TN for a trial. Like you said not too many trials, so when one comes up people go!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Our club members have(had) two certified decoys, I think they are up for re-cert. Hmmm, I'll bring this up at training. When UKC split from SDA it downward spiraled, sadly.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Our club members have(had) two certified decoys, I think they are up for re-cert. Hmmm, I'll bring this up at training. When UKC split from SDA it downward spiraled, sadly.


Yes and now they are actively trying to get it going strong again. I have been trying to spread the word and get more groups holding trials.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Sorry, is SDA "Service dog of America"?

I have not attended many training sessions (ten?), but am getting started in PSA. From what I have seen so far, I do not see a difference between training PSA and PPD. In either, the dog is permitted to bite where he pleases. Is that not what the ultimate goal is in either? Perhaps PPD is transitioned to hidden sleeve quicker.
Also assuming PSA is considered a sport, but I would not have a straight answer on that. 
Apologies if this is unrelated to the topic or innacurate. I am amateur at best, trying to learn as well.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

jae said:


> Sorry, is SDA "Service dog of America"?
> 
> I have not attended many training sessions (ten?), but am getting started in PSA. From what I have seen so far, I do not see a difference between training PSA and PPD. In either, the dog is permitted to bite where he pleases. Is that not what the ultimate goal is in either? Perhaps PPD is transitioned to hidden sleeve quicker.
> Also assuming PSA is considered a sport, but I would not have a straight answer on that.
> Apologies if this is unrelated to the topic or innacurate. I am amateur at best, trying to learn as well.


Yes, SDA is Service Dogs of America. 


I only ask because people talk about protection sports like the dogs are taught to only bite a sleeve. Are there really clubs out there that do this? I've only attended a few clubs but none of them promoted sleeve oriented dogs. If a dog was focused on a sleeve then the sleeve was removed from the equation. All the groups I've seen seem to want the dogs to be "real". As a decoy that's what I try to promote. We don't work the dogs in pure prey. If the dog can't handle it the dog is washed out. Maybe that hurts too many peoples feelings or something. I don't know.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

PP starts off as a sport but we take it to a next level and its really real no more sleeves its all very realistic we use body suits jackets hidden sleeves attack int the woods while walking my dog

attacked in the car


all kinds of stuff very unlike sport training and a lot of sport dogs wont enjoy it


the good ones will though

there are whips there are sticks men attacking etc... a lot of dogs shut down or go into avoidence. WHen they mean sport dogs they just mean your average poorly bred or typical sport dog (prey monster). not the good ones from good breeders. A good sport dog well bred can do PP work easy. MAL or gsd.

THe protection work for sport dogs is very easy and not hard to do but pp protection is very intense takes a serious strong minded dog for it. Not a sleeve shark. The dog needs to want to eat the man not the sleeve.


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## Butch Cappel (Sep 23, 2011)

*Application*

Basic training for a sport OR a police/security dog consists of learning to bite and release on command, same thing for either application. For decades good police dogs have been trained with a sleeve, and sport dogs have worked on a suit, so equipment is not the reason one is a sport and one is a police dog. Some sports use a suit because they have no designated bite target BUT they do have a 'preferred' target, for example.

I just did a protection seminar in Arkansas. One handler considered his training 'protection' becuase he used a suit. When he sent his dog down the arena, to catch a fleeing decoy, the dog ran past the decoy, turned and tried to jump and bite his left inside arm, which was not being held outstretched, that is definitely sport dog.

You can train with any sort of equipment as long as you don't teach a pattern or target of any kind. The other big difference is a protection dog is trained to fight after engagement. A sport dog will bite a sleeve and then be driven so the judge can asses him, as the dog hangs on. 
In many Ring sports, the dogs learn to bite the lower leg becasue it is harder for the decoy to esquive a dog biting an ankle. The bite is not scored or assesed just the fact that the dog caught the decoy. 

Likewise in many American sports, dogs are targeted on the left inner arm then after biting, just hang on as things are rattled or shook around their heads. 

A protection dog learns to fight AFTER they bite. So a sport dog is judged when he bites, and a protection dog is judged for how he fights AFTER the initial bite. Any dog that learns the basics can do either one, it all depends on the training after they learn those basics

www.k9prosportsonline.com
www.thepolicedog.com
www.k9kountry.net


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

recent there has been a lot of talk about starting pp off as civil, waiting till the dog matures then starting civil and then moving to the sleeve suit after, I assume this would be for some more prey orientated dogs that might have a hard time making a connection between the equipment and man. With a naturally civil dog you can start them off anyway does not mat matter it will be easy training as they dont forget the man.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For me, the big diffrence between sport training and PP training is that sport training requires a much higher level developing a specific behavioral topography that the judges look for and grade. It does not neccessarily have anything to do with the quality of the dog in terms of real life application sucha s a patrol dog of a military apprehension dog. Training a dog for personal protection dogs not require to high degree of repetitiveness in the bitework because, as I have said before, It creates amindset in the dog that the bitework is a game. I have also said, I don't see a high need for personal protection dogs except in particular situations. It is also a combinations of genetics and training. If you take a young puppy and teach him early on how to excel in prey work, that is good for sport, but creates drawbacks for a serious PP dog. Again, you will not know if the dog has the gentic package needed for real man work unless you wait for the dog to mature. Peolple interested in this work become reinforced by their young pup working well in prey, and that is fine for sport, but has major drawbacks for PP, police servive work and military applications.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Chip I still dont understand what you are talking about, to make pp training worth it and so the dog does not get stressed out the dog is switched in and out of drives, its not always totally real unless you get to have a bran new decoy each time you train. Smart dogs figure out what is going on eventually, they still learn the skills needed to be learned and become man fighters if they are good dogs to begin with. 

The decoy a real good one will keep the dog just from going into avoidence he will sometimes put the dog in defense/fight/prey sometimes its just a game to the dog. Depends whats going on. After its over gloves are off and the dog diffuses. A dog that always views everything as a threat like the decoy as a constant threat will never last long in a fight. These dogs lose heart quick. GSD are not meant to be worked like that they are not a pure defensive dog like a LGD. A LGD such as a CO or a CAO will constantly view the decoy as a threat.

Before the dog ever touches defense you need to build its courage in the first place. There are a lot of eastern lines you can tell very soon if the dog has it in them to be naturally civil or not. You dont have to wait with a lot of lines. Right away experienced trainers will know.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

also wanted to mention something i was told if the gsd is more defensive/civil by nature it is probably better idea to do more prey work with the decoy in pp then defensive work

If the dog is more prey by nature or sporty it is probably better to do more defensive work with the decoy

It also really depends on the individual dog

If you have a naturally civil dog with high prey you can't really go wrong. You can have any kind of foundation you like because the dog always looks at the man. Does not mean the dog thinks the man is a constant threat but the dog just doesnt care for that much for equipment. If they have balance and strong nerves they will only see the decoy as a threat when he acts like one.

But ignore the bottom part I do understand what you are trying to say. You just got to see it more often. GOOD GSD's are much better at PP than other breeds their brains are huge (except mals)


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The dog doesn't always have to be worked in defense. Aprey bite on the bad guy escaping from a hiding area a night would work. Muzzle work is good too if the dog has what it takes. The problems people take about about working a dog in defense too much have to do with doing it too sonn, the dog might lack confidence and be overly defensive to begin with, and it doesn't create the performance the judges want to see in some sports. It is more about creating a mind set in the dog where the dog doesn't always work on a field expecting the same thing almost every session. Sport requires so much refinement, you have to do a ton of repetition and the dog quickly learns it is just a game.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's an outsider's POV...I haven't trained Schutzhund or PP, but I've been to trials.

I think the discussion is largely based on the premise that everyone does Schutzhund the way it was meant to be done. If you're training Schutzhund because you want a well trained, well tested, all-around dog, and you understand how important control is in the sport, then I don't think your dog is that far off from PP. The problem lies in all the people that are just doing it to title, get that high score, and breed. Or just to pat themselves on the back for that high 290.

I've seen dogs that couldn't control themselves once the decoy was out there. They missed blinds, they bit repeated times...they knew EXACTLY what was going on and EXACTLY when it was going to happen. I have doubts that the handler even needed to say anything in the obedience phase and the dogs just would've done it from memory.

I train in AKC obedience and my instructor does Schutzhund. She's told me numerous times not to "confuse" my dog by doing exercises backwards or allowing him to jump a jump he'll never have to jump in a trial. But the funny thing is that she does train what I would consider "correctly" for Schutzhund. Still...many people do train the pattern because in the end the score and the title is more important the dog actually being able to do X in the real world.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Sport dogs are like boxers...it's a physical sport, but with very clear rules and parameters. There are penalties for not playing nice.

A real protection dog at work is more like being in a street fight. No rules, unknown time and location of the threat. Losing is real.

Comparing the two is like apples and oranges.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so far everyone has been talking about the training aspect .
I am going to add - dog selection -- . A sport dog can be reactive , be a pain to live with , be maintained in kennel only , coming out for training and trialing .
Everyone he comes into contact with knows what to expect . They are all "in" on it and understand and will forgive errors. That is why when you join a club you sign a waiver .

The personal protection dog - different. That dog through the nature of its calling has high contact with the public , else he would be useless or limited in function. That public is not part of an understanding group. Wrong action by dog- see you in court . If the dog is a pain to live with there will be spans of time where the dog is not available for service . 
The dog needs to be clear and controlled and controllable.

The person with such a dog , unless law enforcement , is not a savvy trainer . They want a reasonable dog that is biddable without great exertion of authority , does its job, integrates well with the family and is not a liability , but does its job.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Tim, good analogy! Both dogs should have good control....but the rules of engagement are based on different premises....points and anything goes....definitely apples and oranges.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs have no idea about points...they do know about losing however! 
Is it training, or genetics that make a dog a 'sport' or 'real dog? I think it is mostly genetic.
I feel bad for my dog, he doesn't want to work within the parameters or deal with all those rules I force on him! He'd rather have those street smart scenarios that don't bore him.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

chip yeah but pp dogs need to be advanced and it takes a while before a lot of them get to do muzzle work etc...

I see a lot of sports people doing muzzle work too also.

onyx so karlo isnt a real sporty type dog by nature?


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My uninformed thoughts are that the sport dogs go further into the training but its alot of nonsense trying to score the most points and impress humans. Also they are frequently "groomed" where all the training is set up to make them not fail (at their own pace) vs truly challenge them (and potentially ruin them). The dogs sent to war and with police dont have near as much training as a top sport dog. they arent groomed and if they fail then they fail, theres another dog ready to replace them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"The dogs sent to war and with police dont have near as much training as a top sport dog. they arent groomed and if they fail then they fail, theres another dog ready to replace them" 

But if they fail the cost is steep , lives may be at stake. Not dog lives , human lives . 

Personal protection -- send a dog out to a client with needs for a protection dog and the dog fails to do its job --- serious problems including being sued . 

For police dogs it's preparation before they are evaluated and chosen. 4 months of daily "school time" training - with removal from program ever present if not satisfactory . Certification test . Then for the rest of the dog's working career there is day to day learning and "training" through experience - . Then to test proficiency yearly re certification . 
The handlers rely on their dogs , bond as partners , become attached . When a dog needs to be replaced because of injury , or age, or no longer meeting recertification there is a genuine sadness .
Sport dogs don't always enjoy that close relationship with the handler / trainer who preps and titles for resale.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pets4life said:


> chip yeah but pp dogs need to be advanced and it takes a while before a lot of them get to do muzzle work etc...
> 
> I see a lot of sports people doing muzzle work too also.
> *
> onyx so karlo isnt a real sporty type dog by nature*?


No, he is bored by repetition and obedience is not his favorite phase, though he is biddable, he gets bored easily, I have to work to keep his engagement. He has a higher threshold, carries a bit of suspicion, not reactive.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

onyx he sounds like a very nice dog did you think about ring or psa with him?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would say that the vast majority of club level schH titled GSDs could not be PPD dogs just as they couldn't be police service dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

pets4life said:


> onyx he sounds like a very nice dog did you think about ring or psa with him?


No PSA clubs in MI, and the only ring club is 3 hours away(and of course dominated by the Mal/Dutchie people) 
My dog is larger in structure, so I'll stick to IPO/SDA with him.


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