# Crate training a Trauma Dog (rescue)



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Lil is estimated to be 4 yrs old.
She may (or may not) have been raised in a shelter
She has no training, no manners, not housebroken


I started slow and calm, she went in on own, laid in it. Didn't close door
Next time lured her in closed it and hung around, did dishes, made dinner etc. No issue
Next time I lured her in, spent 15 mins of so doing stuff, going in and out of kitchen (where crate is)...then I went out for 2 hrs. Came home all was calm
Next time same routine....went out for 5 hrs. Signs she had some issues...crate was moved 6" and pulled table runner and pushed chair that was near
Next time got harder to get her in...but did, except home, mowed lawn, made dinner, ate in other room while she was in crate. No sounds
Two of the times I left she shredded bedding.
Bought her kong treat dispenser


Then this past Friday, started new job. I woke to her honking kinda cough...I am in panic. I also step in pee, so my morning is mess...Friend was coming at 1pm to walk her and spend time with. She came for 930 am.
Lil would not go near her all day (no more coughing)
Sunday, work....had to force her into crate. No choice, wouldn't fall for treats. Friend was coming for 1pm. Got here. Lil had unlatched the top (not bottom), bent the frame a bit and squeezed out.
She was on the sofa when friend arrived.


She now has separation anxiety, and crate trauma.
I have to work today.


She is being kenneled at the vet for the day. Vet called this morning and offered an adapto (sp.?) collar...if they have in stock that will go on her. If not, tomorrow.


I am off next two days, then work Fri, Sat, Sun,...will be gone 9 hrs each day


I need to make the most of next two days....HELP!!!!
(note: I also bought lavender spray - from a lavender farm, not some commercial product...and I am going to start Ashwagandha)


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can you put her in a sturdy outdoor kennel with shelter while you work? That would allow you to start over with crate training and housebreaking and not have to crate her longer than she could tolerate to start?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You are not going to fix this inew 2 days...no way, no how


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Do you feed her in the crate? I leave the crate door open for them to eat, always. It's where good stuff happens.

When dogs bust out of wire crates, we shift to airline crates. If they shred bedding, they lose the bedding. Simply diffusing some calming EO (like Aura Cacia's Mellow Mix) helps some dogs. 

How did she do on the couch, when she busted out and was alone? Maybe she'd do okay if confined to the kitchen or some area with tile in case she goes potty?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you mentioned this before and I would recommend this .

Ashwagandha

An adaptogen -- but so much more - which will benefit this stressed dog , who is stressed in all ways possible , body, healing crisis and emotional .

Ashwagandha will increase immune function enabling removal of bacteria and co-infectious material which I would not discount .

The tick is NOT the only vector for lyme and bartonella and babesiosis and other co infections.

the longer the immune system has been in poor shape the more open it is to infection !

Ashwagandha is also an anti oxidant , anti inflammatory and important for an animal in major detox , a support for liver.

Ashwagandha can help increase oxygen carrying red blood cells -- aid in digestion --- calm down that adrenalized state which keeps the animal in a high-alert , immune fatiguing condition.

Benefiting stressed and anxious animals , slightly sedative , 

st. Francis herb has a good tincture . Organic Traditions has a powdered version . Both are available at your local
health food store (or on-line)


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Anti-inflammatory + oxygenator sounds really good for a dog with HW disease. The lungs and pulmonary blood vessels often have an major inflammatory response to the worms and the bacteria they carry.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes, the worms and the bacteria they carry -- metabolites (waste products of the same)

schizandra is outstanding for respiratory and is also anti anxiety , balancing the central nervous system, like ashwagandha slightly sedative , and has some anti microbial actions in being a "blood cleaner".

you can get tincture -- or I have both whole berry and powder in my collection 

I also have ashwagandha powder -- and astragulus (brew an asian broth with mushrooms).

western medicine is so lacking -- integrative is the best of all worlds.

basically the dog needs to be addressed as restoring proper function to 3 body systems (excluding nervous which will adjust ) 

these are the 3 under siege at this moment

circulatory
digestive 
and lymphatic - that care for liver and spleen !


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Magwart said:


> Anti-inflammatory + oxygenator sounds really good for a dog with HW disease. The lungs and pulmonary blood vessels often have an major inflammatory response to the worms and the bacteria they carry.


 
Yes! And that is why I ordered Carmen's products and I am making a new bone stock right now....she has been getting for 12 days + had her 16 days. The Feed-sentials mix is ant-inflamm and an oxygenator...I used burdock root (in FS) along with red clover, and is known as a blood purifier...


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

carmspack said:


> yes, the worms and the bacteria they carry -- metabolites (waste products of the same)
> 
> schizandra is outstanding for respiratory and is also anti anxiety , balancing the central nervous system, like ashwagandha slightly sedative , and has some anti microbial actions in being a "blood cleaner".
> 
> ...



I have used Ash and astragalus both from the (uh hem..cleat throat), holistic vet...G started raw and that (ash came later, whole long story of that was helpful)...But after 6 months he looked gorgeous. slim, shed 15-20 lbs......AND I have St. Francis, AND she will be started on it tonight with her night snack, Bison canned tripe, feed-sentials and her crap kibble (she LOVES kibble)


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Starting tomorrow morning...*

How do I start crate training over.


Tonight she gets Ash, she has the adapto collar on, I have lavender spray and rose geranium for crate (or bandana...got her really cool one, pink with flowers and skulls (lol) (conventional vet suggested latter for calming, I was impressed! I had bought it for ticks)


I start my day at 6-630am work or not...I get coffee, and go on deck with pooch.
Go get ready, we go for fair to good walk depending, she loves walks...she may or may not poop...I have stuff to do that requires I leave and she is crated..


Where do I go from there, starting our day...To make this a positive..games? Feeding in crate her snack tonight BTW (Thanks Magwart)...I fed her last night on deck while I tried to mow lawn...she watched, she ate...she is afraid of lawnmowers if people start near her. First I had her watch me go get it...I sat with her on deck. Then leashed her and had do lap around house and sniff to our back yard, the mower. Sat with her and tethered her on deck, to be safe and mowed part of lawn away from her...


So with that in mind...I can take my time with...but have to go out..2 days to get my stuff done and hers!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Crate training a dog like this can take several weeks if you want to do it right. The steps you described in the first thread are way too fast and it will take extra time to get the progress you are working for. I understand your situation but your dog doesn't.
How about a dog sitter staying with her while working with her crate training?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Can you put her in a sturdy outdoor kennel with shelter while you work? That would allow you to start over with crate training and housebreaking and not have to crate her longer than she could tolerate to start?



My yard is not fully fenced, I have full sun from 7am to 4pm. She now has separation anxiety. That isn't going to change because she is in or out. Plus I don't have a spare $500 to buy one, nor would I trust leaving her outside to possibly escape. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> You are not going to fix this inew 2 days...no way, no how



Oh I know that, what I was looking for was advice on a do over. She started off fine with crate, as she has bonded to me, the SA developed and the crate became a barrier to me. Then, the very very bad morning on my first day of work. She has HW and I woke to her greeting me with this awful honking/coughing noise while laying on her side. My plan was to leave her for about 4 hrs to which my friend would come and spend rest of day with her...she wanted to come first thing. I said no, she has to learn....well, friend had to come out almost immediately so I could go to new job. I left at 8am, she was here by 930am...Lil would not go near her all day, wouldn't let her put leash on. This should have been her saviour...My friend is the softest most gentle person in the world. She came out one day prior when Lil had only been here 4 days (she met her once before, the day I contemplated adopting or returning)....So I could go out and get things done. She came, we spent an hr chatting, I left, she hooked Lil up 4x and went for walks...no problem. She even sat on floor with her and Lil rolled over and she gave her belly rubs for 15 mins.


Last Friday, Lil won't go near.
Sunday she came again, but back to original plan...about 1-130. That's when she showed and found Lil on sofa. Lil still wouldn't go near her rest of day.




Thecowboysgirl said:


> Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD



I googled, watched a Youtube example. But was an example of a 3m old puppy with no trauma.


While this might be helpful...In the interim, I need to make crating her over next 2 days viable so that I can get things done. 


So how do I do that?


I thought by putting her in and being present, going out for short spells, keeping calm and not fussing were the right ways to do???
The destructiveness came as she became more and more comfortable with her new life.
The trauma was because she wouldn't be bribed to go in, and I had to force...That was same day she escaped


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Crate training a dog like this can take several weeks if you want to do it right. The steps you described in the first thread are way too fast and it will take extra time to get the progress you are working for. I understand your situation but your dog doesn't.
> How about a dog sitter staying with her while working with her crate training?



The steps were too fast? How do people who get a dog on Friday and go to work Monday do it?


I left the crate open with double sided towel for 2 days. I threw treats in, she went in ate and left...day 3 she crated herself. I did stuff in kitchen and she watched me, started falling asleep.
Next time I crated her I had to shower. No whining, nothing. I left her in there and proceeded to do dishes and other stuff and ignore. She just lounged.
I crated her next to shower. Then decided to use this space to BBQ, have dinner, do dishes. eat in other room. She was fine.
I crated her, I went out for 2-3 hrs. Did shopping and laundry. I returned home, brought all my stuff in, she was sleeping, I thought she was dead because she didn't stir even though I dropped something and made big crash...I was like...ok, this will work.


Then starting going downhill...She is feeling better (was very sick), getting stronger, more comfortable.
She is afraid of everything. People, dogs, automatic doors...not thunder though (bonus!)


Boarding her at vet - She wouldn't take treats, kept her eyes on everything going on. Didn't claw or paw at crate. She did o.k


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> The steps were too fast? How do people who get a dog on Friday and go to work Monday do it?


A dog will tell you what works. It doesn't mean that other people have success with this. It also depends on the dog. When I worked in ,a shelter a Pit was returned because she had ripped up the bathroom floor when they left for work. Same situation: adopted on Friday, left alone on Monday; no time for adjustment.
A dog needs time, some more than others, and they don't care if you need to go to work or not. These are way too high expectations for a dog. You just have to make the best of it.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> A dog will tell you what works. It doesn't mean that other people have success with this. It also depends on the dog. When I worked in ,a shelter a Pit was returned because she had ripped up the bathroom floor when they left for work. Same situation: adopted on Friday, left alone on Monday; no time for adjustment.
> A dog needs time, some more than others, and they don't care if you need to go to work or not. These are way too high expectations for a dog. *You just have to make the best of it*.


 
Except I didn't get a dog Friday and stick it in crate Monday.


In *bold *HOW???...that is the reason for this thread


This was done over a 2 week period. I don't feel the steps were too fast. 


It was her change as she adapted to having a home, and food, and love and walks.


She came from a no-kill shelter in Louisiana that was broke and the dogs were crammed 10-15 a kennel with no food, the dogs were starving and the shelter was so broke they couldn't afford to euth them.
Some of these dogs had been in for months and yrs. She, based on her lack of knowing anything, may have been one that was in for yrs. (may be why she was estimated at 4 yrs old)...She has evidence of 2 puncture scars (nominal) on her legs. 


I have to go out...No Choice


Do I stuff her in and let her ride it out?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Get the plastic crate. Walmart. Lol.

Yes put her in and let her deal. In between do the in and out I told you about. Feed in crate. And use that Kong treat ball.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Plastic because she will injure herself on wire. Walmart because they are molded so no side grates to pull out. 
This is going to slow it down because you have to work. So be it. Just means you need to counter with much positive in between.
Remember the 15 minutes coming and going. Vital for dogs with sa.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Once a dog escapes from a wire crate, it's game over. They will keep trying, and trying. And the worst part is they may hurt themselves in the process, either break their teeth, or get caught ore even impaled on the wire.

So, agree with Sabis's advice. At the moment, the best thing you can do is get a sturdy plastic crate, and let her ride it out. If you have a friend who can give her a break, GREAT! She will likely warm up to your friend in time.

If she didn't have heartworm, I might suggest a doggie daycare, but since she's contagious, that's not a viable option.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Get the plastic crate. Walmart. Lol.
> 
> Yes put her in and let her deal. In between do the in and out I told you about. Feed in crate. And use that Kong treat ball.



I looked at one at Pet Valu. 
I don't see how a plastic one is any better. The one I looked at uses a flush bolt kinda mechanism at top and bottom. if she pushes down on latch it will unfasten at top and she could get hurt trying to squeeze out.


I fed her last night and this morning in crate. 


The kong is now evil


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Plastic because she will injure herself on wire. Walmart because they are molded so no side grates to pull out.
> This is going to slow it down because you have to work. So be it. Just means you need to counter with much positive in between.
> Remember the 15 minutes coming and going. Vital for dogs with sa.



Can you text me a pic? B/C, the ones I saw have side grates on top half and front grate too. They come apart in middle.


I did do 15 mins + going


I still need to go out, even if just to walmart


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Crates have air holes in the sides, on the upper half. Some of the crates have wire grates to allow air circulation. The ones you want are solid plastic, NO grates, just slits in the plastic to allow air in.

Like this:


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Once a dog escapes from a wire crate, it's game over. They will keep trying, and trying. And the worst part is they may hurt themselves in the process, either break their teeth, or get caught ore even impaled on the wire.
> 
> So, agree with Sabis's advice. At the moment, the best thing you can do is get a sturdy plastic crate, and let her ride it out. If you have a friend who can give her a break, GREAT! She will likely warm up to your friend in time.
> 
> If she didn't have heartworm, I might suggest a doggie daycare, but since she's contagious, that's not a viable option.



Well, she cannot escape if I zip-tie it. However, yes the breaking teeth thing possible.


I was kind of looking for how to start her off today on positive note....Like put her in, 5 mins, let her out, go for walk, put back in, do dishes, take her out....


Looking for advice on how to train her. 


I don't have a friend who can help me 7 days a week...nor do I have the money to kennel her every time I need to walk out the door


I've lost half my day


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GatorBytes said:


> Can you text me a pic? B/C, the ones I saw have side grates on top half and front grate too. They come apart in middle.
> 
> 
> I did do 15 mins + going
> ...


Pics sent by text. Brand name is petmate 
The only dog I have had get out was Bud and he bent the door in the middle until it broke.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Thanks for pic's Sabis!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> In *bold *HOW???...that is the reason for this thread


The 'bold' just happened to turn out in bold. Didn't mean to. I agree that it looks weird. With that being said, I meant that you have to work with the circumstances you are in. In the ideal world, yes it would be easier. Also try to act confident, like it is the most normal thing in the world. In the meantime train her gently so she sees you as a leader and will take your cues easier. Do not baby her as her sad story was over when you took her under your wings. Good luck. I think you have had many good tips. Keep us posted. I agree with getting a plastic crate for safety. Maybe put it in another spot to see if that helps.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Well after screwing around trying to find a plastic crate and what size, I decided to head to Petsmart and Wal-mart. Unfortunately the Petsmart that was the path of least resistance doesn't have in stock. So I went to another, but got so jammed up in traffic and realized I had bone stock going and forgot to gate the counter area and if she escaped she could get seriously burned if she got to it. So I abandoned the trip. Came home.


As I was pulling in driveway she was howling and crying. Gone an hour. She couldn't have heard me. So she had not settled in that time.


I came in she was freaking out, clawing and wagging her body so hard she could have broke her tail...I checked things and went back out to other store in my town. The only crates they stock have the metal vents. Doesn't look safe.


My day is shot. I get to do all over again tomorrow. So I will be spending day running around and cramming two days of errands into one, also while having anxiety attacks while out...instead of working on her.


Then I get to stuff her in new crate next day for 9 hrs and the next and the next...


Oh, and when came back, there was splatter marks all over floor...she had sprayed saliva all over...that's how frantic she was


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you need to calm her down --- seriously , try the adaptogens .


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

carmspack said:


> you need to calm her down --- seriously , try the adaptogens .



She is wearing the pheromone collar, I fed her last night and this morning in the crate, I spritzed lavender around and she got Ashwagandha with her meals
When I crated her I bribed her with bone stock. She was calm when I left.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

9 hrs in a crate? That just isn't right. Maybe you are not the right home for her. This dog needs someone who is around more often. I feel sorry for both of you. I mean this in a respectful way. Sometimes we get into something that goes way over our heads and you have to change courses. Been there, done that.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> 9 hrs in a crate? That just isn't right. Maybe you are not the right home for her. This dog needs someone who is around more often. I feel sorry for both of you. I mean this in a respectful way. Sometimes we get into something that goes way over our heads and you have to change courses. Been there, done that.


 
Really? There are people who crate their dog for 10-12 hrs 5 days a week and they are on this forum.


Now, I have been around and I am around A LOT. Hence her SA


This is a new job and I didn't anticipate that it was going to take me an hour and a half to get home. I also didn't know that I wouldn't get out of work until 5pm (worst for rush hour). I also DIDN'T have the dog when I applied.
I was hired on premise that only have 2 shifts a week with option to work more if needed (someone calls in) until Sept and that will go up to 3-4. So I have a month to work on her. However, this week happens to be 4.


The dog is doing extremely well other then the SA and incident that caused trauma because I needed to start my new job that day. We had 2 weeks of calm crate time to fussing to trauma. Did you read the incident that happened that likely led to this?


I have already gone for an interview (Monday) at a place closer to home.


So tell me again that I'm not the right home for her.


She is afraid of other people and dogs.


I started this thread for advice on crate training...not whether I should rehome her. Do you have anything to offer?


Note: Gator was a saint at home.
This dog by every other person I have contact with all say the same thing...She is lucky to have got me. Even my upstairs neighbour told my friend this when she was walking her...and he and I are not friends.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Also Wolfy Dog. 
This dog has not been alone for 9 hrs. yet since I got her


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Have you put her away, then left and listened outside. I just wondered how long it takes if she doesn't think you are there. I haven't needed help with S/A but I've read that the Thunder shirts have helped some, not sure if its true or not. How about recording yourself just talking or reading out loud, and playing it for her. I just imagine her without you, and how terrified she was in the shelter. Positive thoughts to you both.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> I started this thread for advice on crate training...not whether I should rehome her. Do you have anything to offer?


I did give my input. That's what a forum is all about. We don't have to agree.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

ksotto333 said:


> Have you put her away, then left and listened outside. I just wondered how long it takes if she doesn't think you are there. I haven't needed help with S/A but I've read that the Thunder shirts have helped some, not sure if its true or not. How about recording yourself just talking or reading out loud, and playing it for her. I just imagine her without you, and how terrified she was in the shelter. Positive thoughts to you both.


 
She never made sound first few times...she has let off one bark playing (which is a learned behaviour, she didn't seem to know or try to play at first, now she's having a blast with toys)..but as she started to ease into her new life, the SA developed and some stress with bad timing. This is now the behaviour she is offering...spastic and howling.


But so much positive has happened too. Baby steps, but steps forward. She is a soft dog.


Edit: Thank you BTW


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

and sometimes it's one forward, two back. Having fun with toys is good, I would think. ( I would be a soft dog too with that history,  )


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> 9 hrs in a crate? That just isn't right. Maybe you are not the right home for her. This dog needs someone who is around more often. I feel sorry for both of you. I mean this in a respectful way. Sometimes we get into something that goes way over our heads and you have to change courses. Been there, done that.


Not sure why you said this. 

Based on the first 5 days most people would have dumped her back at the shelter and said thanks but no thanks. 
If everyone who worked an 8 hour day gave up their dogs we would have an awful lot of homeless dogs. If breeders only sold to people who stayed home all day they wouldn't sell many.
And at the end of the day they are dogs. They will bloody well deal with what they need to. About 20 days a month Shadow is home alone for 10 hours. Crated. Most days I have someone spend a couple of hours here with her. Some days I can't. And we manage. I do what I can and she is just fine.
I don't like it. But it is what it is. I don't work we don't eat. 
Gatorbytes is doing the best she can and will continue to. Lil will be fine. She may fuss and training may take longer but thats ok. We don't all have dual income houses or people to help. And most people are not independantly wealthy.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

the Crate Games DVD would still help I think. I have used the exercises on dogs who already didn't like their crates and it does help change the mental association.

Unfortunately every time you have to lock her in there and leave you will be undoing the positive association.

I knew someone with a HW+ new rescue that was also breaking out of the crate, who found a small dog daycare with a quiet section for older dogs and we're able to use this daycare while they re crate trained the dog. Might be worth investigating.

I also used to walk a dog who was a new rescue with sa and the dog had jumped out a 2nd floor window, that one was on some pretty hard core sedatives prescribed by vet. it was temporary. weaned off the dope as the dog settled down.

Also because it's cheap, trying the straw method might be messy but worth trying when you get a new crate.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> the Crate Games DVD would still help I think. I have used the exercises on dogs who already didn't like their crates and it does help change the mental association.
> 
> Unfortunately every time you have to lock her in there and leave you will be undoing the positive association.
> 
> ...



Straw method? 


I'm going to call vet clinic to see if they will take her again tomorrow (the receptionist said they do 1x) and if they have a daycare service they recommend. 


Also going to ask about CBD oil.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Today is new day. I am going to petsmart and walmart to get plastic crate. Costco for more pee pads. 
I froze some bone stock and will give her that to occupy for spell. 
She got her Ashwagandha this morning with her food and fed in crate.


I plan to come back, take her for walk and then I have to go back out to do laundry and go to bank.
I also have to try and find a daycare or kennel where she will be left alone as she is terrified of dogs. And open weekends and on my way to work. 
Hoping to start over with new crate on positive note.




Does anyone have any advice on how to reintroduce her to new crate? While DVD Cowboys girl may offer something, that won't help in the interim. The youtube vid uses clicker. 
Also going to contact a trainer who has a massive dog day care. kennel/boarding facility and Breeds WGSD's. 


How did anyone here train their dog to use/accept the crate?
Do I introduce her to it with lid off, treat her to go in and around it to start?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What I've always done is kind of what you do now.When I was home with the dog/puppy the crate door remained open most of the time.The water bowl and toys were in the crate so dog/puppy went in and out often.After a couple of days they would choose to nap in their 'den' and the door was fastened for increasingly longer periods.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If it was me, I'd look at it from the complete opposite of what you're thinking. I wouldn't bother trying to change how she feels about the crate or going into it. I'd concentrate on showing her that settling down will be the only way she gets out. Even if its broken all the way down to just 2 seconds of calm 20 times a day, That's what I'd be looking for. The repetition of showing her how to succeed then expanding that to a predictable routine where she's in and out at the same times so she understands she's not trapped. Then if you want to try and change her attitude about the crate, at least she may be able to make that connection.

Maybe put a crate in your car and take her on your errands when you can. Give yourself another chance to take her out when she's settled down. I doubt that its going to be easy, but fixing things never is.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Not sure why you said this.
> 
> Based on the first 5 days most people would have dumped her back at the shelter and said thanks but no thanks.
> If everyone who worked an 8 hour day gave up their dogs we would have an awful lot of homeless dogs. If breeders only sold to people who stayed home all day they wouldn't sell many.
> ...


I said this in regard of this particular dog who had so much trouble with being crated and who needed more time than average to get used to it. I agree that it beats being homeless but the dog doesn't know this. Being crated that long is not ideal for any dog, wired to work all day, but easier on the ones who are OK with it. I admire GB for going the extra mile to make this work and not just stuff a scared dog in a crate. Hope this explains this a bit.
Regarding GB's question on how to go about the crate training: a new crate, different from the previous one and in a different location, is a new beginning. I would move it next to your bed for the night to increase her comfort and security and it is good for bonding. Furthermore all the suggestions in the previous are good to get her to accept the crate. It is basically going back to 'crating puppy level 101'. Leave an old shirt, that you wore recently, in her crate when she has to be alone for comfort.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GatorBytes said:


> Straw method?
> 
> 
> I'm going to call vet clinic to see if they will take her again tomorrow (the receptionist said they do 1x) and if they have a daycare service they recommend.
> ...


I responded to this but it seems like it didn't send. Google Marc Goldberg straw for separation anxiety in a crate. There is a PDF out there somewhere that he wrote, it's his method I believe. I've heard some people swear by it and again, it's cheap and easy to try. I believe they recommend to do it in a plastic crate like people are suggesting you get anyway. I think the theory is that it gives them something to frig with, that's safer than chewing and destroying the crate, and then it may trigger a nesting instinct where they start moving their straw around to make a nest or den for themselves and it helps them settle.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

You've gotten good advice. I want to share one tidbit I tell all our new fosters who are stressing about the dog not liking the crate: If the dog throws a temper tantrum in the crate (shrieking, barking, banging on the door...), and you open the door, what have you taught it? 

The ones who power through a few sleepless nights end up with dogs who sleep through the night quickly, and even if you don't crate at night, the same principle applies to day-crating. The ones who go to the crate every time the dog fusses to let it out end up having a much longer road. Don't worry about 9 hours in the crate -- I know tons of people who work that long who crate the dogs (including my trainer, actually), and they've got happy, healthy, loved dogs. With luck, eventually someday she'll earn run of the house while you're at work. It would be better to work up to it slowly, but if you can't, you can't. Do what you need to do. If you can hire a dog walker, that would be fantastic. I've known some that only charge $10 or so for single dogs. To avoid a bolting risk with a stranger, I'd tell them instead of walking, just go play and snuggle in the yard, on leash.

I'd also put the radio or TV on with relaxing music for the dog. For dogs not used to being alone and quiet, it can sometimes help just to have some gentle background noise.

The first two weeks with any new shelter dog SUCK. They just do. These dogs mostly lived outside, having never been in any house. They've been living in a shelter kennel, peeing and pooping in it because they don't get walked, with constant noise. Quiet is something they don't get much of. Human attention, a home, a leash walk...it's all brand new. The first week is the worst, the second slightly better. It really does get better though. This is why I bristle when arm-chair networkers on FB call themselves "rescuers" -- you earn that label with sleepless nights, diarrhea in your living room, destroyed crates, and shelter stank and dog vomit in your car. Nearly every fresh-from-the-shelter dog goes through some version of all this in the beginning, and then eventually a switch flips in their head one day, and it's just all okay (often because of a 2-week shutdown). Hang in there -- it _does _get better!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GatorBytes said:


> Today is new day. I am going to petsmart and walmart to get plastic crate. Costco for more pee pads.
> I froze some bone stock and will give her that to occupy for spell.
> She got her Ashwagandha this morning with her food and fed in crate.
> 
> ...


No and no. You set it up put her in close the door and see ya!
With a couple of dogs I worked in seconds and built up. But you don't have time. So don't set that precedent. 
And don't tell me how upset she is. She will be more upset dumped back in the shelter without you.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> No and no. You set it up put her in close the door and see ya!
> With a couple of dogs I worked in seconds and built up. But you don't have time. So don't set that precedent.
> And don't tell me how upset she is. She will be more upset dumped back in the shelter without you.


Gatorbytes, This and what Steve and Magwart said. Power through it. I would, not only because you don't have time now, but because in just a couple of months, Oct, Lils life may depend on her being rock solid calm in a crate. Best to get the worst of the crate issue over fast then have some time, before the rough meds start, to build on changing her attitdued about it, as has been said.

Sometimes it's hard to step back and see the entire picture when dealing with it. Deep down Lil is strong or she would not have gotten as far as she has.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> Gatorbytes, This and what Steve and Magwart said. Power through it. I would, not only because you don't have time now, but because in just a couple of months, Oct, Lils life may depend on her being rock solid calm in a crate. Best to get the worst of the crate issue over fast then have some time, before the rough meds start, to build on changing her attitdued about it, as has been said.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to step back and see the entire picture when dealing with it. Deep down Lil is strong or she would not have gotten as far as she has.


That was the no time I was referring to. This has to happen. Now.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Yesterday I went and bought a plastic kennel. Petsmart had two types. The one I liked looked like had a safety issue on the door. Looked like her toe could get caught on the metal thingy that is welded on. cannot describe better. 
So I bought the other brand. Both were same price point.


I was feeling a bit better yesterday prior to leaving to go shopping. I had fed her in old crate at breakfast. She had her Ashwagandha (it does sedate her for a bit)...
When it was time for her to go in, I gently took her by her collar. She resisted, fell on floor, I just kept talking positive edging her to get up, and she went into crate (held by collar) without having rear end assisted (that only happened 2x as mentioned at start of this thread)zip tied the gate in 3 places. She laid down, sulked a bit, then smelled treats in her kong. I didn't hear her whine as I left.


Close to her dinner time, I took the old crate outside. Brought in the bottom part, fed her in it. 2x...first her kibble, then her tripe, feedsentials and ash.
Before bed I brought in the top. I was so exhausted I resided to fasten it in the morning.


This A.M...fastened crate, fed her breakfast in 2 parts in crate. When it came time for me to get myself together for work, I put frozen bone stock in a bowl, treats in kong, took her by the collar, she resisted but skulked her way in. I treated her, shut the gate. She let out sigh and sulked. I did my stuff and left 15 mins later.


My friend came for 1:45. So she was just under 5 hrs in there.


She is trying to CHEW THROUGH THE PLASTIC...she has shredded the interior side in two places. Right where the bend is on the swing side of gate at the top and on side in the front next to swing side.
Be lucky if the crate lasts me the weekend.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can you afford whatever the smallest lucky dog welded wire kennel is? I have one, it's 8 gauge wire. I have boarded dogs that have destroyed multiple types of crates. They test the kennel and they can feel it's not going to give and they mostly give up. 

Mine is also bolted to the floor and the wall, and has an extra 2x4 installed across the top (it's a 4x8 kennel). So even when they smash against it, it really doesn't move, which I think is important. They are looking for that weakness to work on, and if they can't find a weakness, they seem to quit. The 2x4 is attached across the top of the middle of the two 8 ft walls so they can't bow it out by smashing the side of the kennel. I installed this after a few dogs had luck destroying my chain link kennels and I needed somewhere safe to put the naughty ones.

I don't know if lucky doG makes a 4x4 kennel, or if your dog could manage with less than a 6' wall height because some of the smaller kennels have a 5' wall height and are designed to have a tarp over the top.

Mine is on concrete, too, so there is nothing for them to do to the floor


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

How about spraying the plastic with Bitter Apple?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Magwart said:


> How about spraying the plastic with Bitter Apple?


I suggested tabasco or lemon juice. One too many dogs that liked bitter apple.

Some dogs are really determined. When Bud died I threw his crate out. It looked like wild animals had been at it. But it held. Sabis was bought at the same time and is still used now by Shadow. Was Previously used by 4 different rescues that I had.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Magwart said:


> How about spraying the plastic with Bitter Apple?





Sabis mom said:


> I suggested tabasco or lemon juice. One too many dogs that liked bitter apple.
> 
> Some dogs are really determined. When Bud died I threw his crate out. It looked like wild animals had been at it. But it held. Sabis was bought at the same time and is still used now by Shadow. Was Previously used by 4 different rescues that I had.


I thought about, but didn't want to use aversive, considering anxiety with it at this time. or anytime really..however


On positive note, these 2 days easier to get her in, so that is something...today she went to her bed and I just showed leash and hooked to collar, and we went without tugging, just positive...in fact went in on own, knowing, I unhooked her and she dived into her kong treats. She did give me stink eye though. And she howled as I locked door.


My neighbour going to kill me.


As for rest of day...later


And she destroyed more of the crate...I think Bud is channeling her..lol


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Can you afford whatever the smallest lucky dog welded wire kennel is? I have one, it's 8 gauge wire. I have boarded dogs that have destroyed multiple types of crates. They test the kennel and they can feel it's not going to give and they mostly give up.
> 
> Mine is also bolted to the floor and the wall, and has an extra 2x4 installed across the top (it's a 4x8 kennel). So even when they smash against it, it really doesn't move, which I think is important. They are looking for that weakness to work on, and if they can't find a weakness, they seem to quit. The 2x4 is attached across the top of the middle of the two 8 ft walls so they can't bow it out by smashing the side of the kennel. I installed this after a few dogs had luck destroying my chain link kennels and I needed somewhere safe to put the naughty ones.
> 
> ...



You are full of useful information! Thank you.


Feel she could scale 6 ft if she had to. She's a pretty agile nut job when gets zoomie all over my sofa and bed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GatorBytes said:


> You are full of useful information! Thank you.
> 
> 
> Feel she could scale 6 ft if she had to. She's a pretty agile nut job when gets zoomie all over my sofa and bed.


Some kennel manufacturers make wire roofs for the kennels. It would be super easy to zip tie fencing along the top, too. 

It might be lucky dog that calls it a "predator panel", which I think it for their 4' high kennel. 4' high would be plenty with a welded wire roof so no climbing out.

I paid $500 for the kennel I have but it is bigger than you need. Also worth every cent. I did have a cattle dog run up the wall ninja style and I thought he was going to get out but he didn't make it.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

OMG!!! 


She walked right into her crate this morning.
Put her frozen stock in the bowl and prepped her kong...Held them up to show her, put in crate and as I turned to her, she stood up and walked right past me and in...


Then she whined for about 10 mins.
Off to work. Friend coming for 3pm today.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Well that sounds like a great way to start your day. She's a smart little girl. I liked the straw idea also, messy but the nesting idea sounded intriguing to me.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

It sounds like Frosty Lil is warming up to the idea that crating does not mean abandonment . I couldn't help playing with that name the vet used. Ya just have to celebrate the forward progress.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

:smile2: your consistent methods & homecooked treats are paying off!


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