# Conformation - Beneficial or Detrimental?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Before I start, no, this is not a bash on any of the lines and I hope it doesn't turn into that. 

I've been told by several people that if I'm interested in pursuing French Ring and flyball (among other things) to just get a malinois. Not just because of the fact that they're one of the dominant breeds in FR, but because it would be difficult for a GSD to do well in the venues because of their structure/conformation. (_Yes, even working lines, which is what I'm going to get_). 

I was told that I need to pay very close attention to the structure of my future dog if I want to succeed in the sports, particularly FR. 

If a GSD's structure can limit them in FR and even flyball, is it really beneficial? 

No other breed that I know of are supposed to be as angulated (particularly in the rear) as the GSD - of all lines. Even though other herding breeds are supposed to be out and go, go, go all day long, they have _significantly _less angulation. 

Is the conformation for GSDs truly beneficial, or is it detrimental? 

_I'm not talking about dogs in the conformation ring - I'm talking about the structure of GSDs in general. _


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I think you have to look at the dog's original purpose to answer that.

The GSD was not bred to excel in flyball. _No_ big dog is going to do that well in flyball -- even Mals do better if they're smaller Mals.

But no little flyball dog, however great at its sport, is going to take down a criminal as a police dog, nor frighten wolves or thieves away from a flock of free-roaming sheep.

I'm not going to address the angulation issue just because I think that does veer into a discussion of show conformation as opposed to functional conformation, and my amateur understanding is that the dog's sheer size is more of a limitation in some sports than anything else.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm not just talking about for flyball purposes, but ringsports as well. If a GSD's structure only allows them to do well in select protection sports and not all of them, shouldn't someone, somewhere reconsider?

I think it's sad that I've been told to just get a mal so I can pursue and enjoy those sports with my next dog. Not just in relation to a mal's drives and temperament, but structure.


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## Rbeckett (Jun 19, 2013)

I think conformation is important in some situations but not nearly as important in others. For instance Frisbee sports dogs are a huge cross section of the canine breeds. Just about every breed, size and color does Frisbee events and it is the drive of the dog that makes it excel, not the particular breed . I have seen Beagle Frisbee dogs that outrun out catch and out play just about all comers, I have also seen a GSD play with a worn out minitrail 70 tire for years so it is all about what the dog is doing more so than what is in it's lineage. Corformation has it's place, but it is less important to me than what the dog actually is and does on the ground that I look at and form an opinion about. If I was showing a dog it would be very important, but if I am playing Frisbee or throwing rings I want to see actual performance every time. 

Wheelchair Bob


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

there are GSD's that can do ring sport. Mine do a 2.2 M palisade with little training. We do it for fun. Most GSD's reside in the IPO world. Some break down early, and there are plenty of Mal's that break down early as well. It's not unique to a single breed.

That said, I think conformation is important as it fits in a written standard for dogs. The standard gives a range. The problem with todays conformation is we have politics and the flavor of the day influencing a more extreme conformation. There is no ideal dog, there never will be except to a few select people. We should never breed to have that ideal of those that have the money and power. 

It should always be about the standard and if a dog fits the standard it fits, if it doesn't, it better have a lot of other pretty **** redeeming qualities that would cause a judge to give it a KKL 

It's takes smaller, bigger, agile, longer, stronger, short nerves, strong nerves and everything else to make good working dogs. If they fit the standard and exhibit exceptional working abilities, find out who you can breed them too. If not, don't


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Kontashi I 100% agree with you. I really think that the GSD is built the way they are because it looks good and they can still do IPO. I always hear the "but they need to take down bad guys" reasoning but I just don't see it. How do mals do it then? Why are so many police and military moving to mals if they can't take down bad guys cause they are too small? My husband worked with a few military GSDs in Afghanistan and he said they were all TINY in comparison to what you see in the civi world. They need to be able to climb ladders, jump through windows, rappel out of helicopters etc. Lets face it dogs that are bred for IPO do not need to be that fit, it is not that physically demanding. I have seen dogs successfully complete their IPO3 a good 20 pounds overweight!

The size and structure does limit the sports they can do. I have a male that does flyball and agility and he does extremely well! But I am CONSTANLTY worried about the toll it takes on his body. He is very athletic FOR A GSD, but not compared to the other breeds bred for utility and sports. I can't imagine what he would be capable of if he were built like a malinois. I don't know why athletic ability isn't a bigger focus for the working lines, everyone preaches versatility but a 90 pound dog certainly has limitations in both the working and sport world. It does suck that if you want a dog that can really do it all, everyone tells you to get a mal  to be honest I would tell you the same thing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think a nicely built workingline GSD can move more efficiently all day long at a trot than can a malinois.

A consideration for a working SAR dog or herding dog.

A lot of police I know have gone back TO the GSD in recent years. I have seen some great malinois but also a lot of nutjobs who can't ever settle and can be self destructive.

To each his own.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not a huge fan of the mal temperament either (just not really compatible for me personally) but there is no denying their athletic ability 

Kontashi, all that being said I learned the hard way that you are far better off to get the breed/dog that you LIKE and that suits your lifestyle first and foremost. Sports should really be a distant second when considering adding a dog to your life.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

KristiM said:


> Kontashi, all that being said I learned the hard way that you are far better off to get the breed/dog that you LIKE and that suits your lifestyle first and foremost. Sports should really be a distant second when considering adding a dog to your life.


I'll never pick a dog for the sake of doing a sport.  When I get my GSD, I'll see if the local FR clubs think she's got it. If not, we can give SchH a shot. For flyball, I think I'll just have to work a little harder to get a nice swimmer's turn. 
Sure, a mal might make it all easier, but at the end of the day, a GSD is still my dream dog.  

Now I MAY consider a mal after I get my GSD... but not before, and certainly not so I can do a certain sport.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Odin has a very nice turn and runs 4.1 seconds. Which is as fast or faster than all but one of the mals around here If you are looking for a female GSD you will have a lot more luck finding a dog that has the physical capability to do the sports you want.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are lines of GSD's that are very similar to a Malinois structure-wise...in fact they look just like a sable Mal. If you want a GSD with a more compact structure for sportwork, it isn't hard to find one. But I don't know how long a body will hold up to repetitive sport such as flyball. Does anyone have any stats on the longevity of a GSD in the sport and how the body holds up? They seem to be far and few between as most don't choose the breed for flyball.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

A well built , balanced GSD can do ring sport, French and Mondio with no problem. I did it , a friend did it , the majority of dogs in the Mondio club were GSD.
My SAR dogs repel off the sides of cliffs, get transported by helicopter in harness or kits and are dropped to do avalanche work .


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> A well built , balanced GSD can do ring sport, French and Mondio with no problem. I did it , a friend did it , the majority of dogs in the Mondio club were GSD.
> My SAR dogs repel off the sides of cliffs, get transported by helicopter in harness or kits and are dropped to do avalanche work .


I'm hoping that I'll see some GSDs at the FR championship this weekend.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSDs are slower at flyball (and I had a GSD that ran a 3.9, so not slow, just slowER) than most other flyball dogs because a normal sized male GSD cannot triple stride between the box and the first jump, that's really all there is to it. If you want a 3.7 dog, don't get a GSD unless it's a miniature one with incorrect proportions.

Nice conformation might not be "beneficial" for flyball or FR, but there are a lot of ways my GSD is useful where my 27lb flyball bully mix is not. I guess it depends on one's definition of "beneficial", or what sports/activities really count.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Totally OT but the mal on my team that's runs low 3.7's doesn't triple stride, neither do a lot of the border whippets around here that run 3.6-3.7.

My biggest concern with this breed doing these physically challenging sports isn't so much how fast and how well they can do it, it's the toll it takes on a heavier set, heavier boned dog. Not that the lighter dogs don't break, its just stacking the deck a little more in your favor to have a dog that is built with athletic ability in mind.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Those dogs are completely different shapes, the strides are way different (even between a Mal and a GSD). If you changed the way the lane was setup and how the jumps are spaced, you would have more competitive GSDs. The jumps are too close together, often the runback is too short, the striding on/off the box can be awkward (Pan, who is bigger than Nikon, use dot *try* to triple stride onto the box, somehow still pulled off 3.9 and 4.0 but if we had cleaned that up it would have bought even more time). The smaller dogs and/or more square dogs are just a better fit for the sport, literally. No reason an athletic, normal size GSD can't be running around 4.0 but 3.7 or better...no way, I won't believe it until I see it. The more times the dog can put it's feet on the ground, the faster he's going to be. Same for agility I would assume. Now I say that as someone who will always own a GSD and do these sports, but if I wanted to be seriously competitive I'd get a dog that is better suited, especially for the long term.

I don't see how a GSDs structure is "detrimental" because they are not popular in FR or flyball. I know very little about FR. As far as flyball, we've touched on that but the other aspect is the amount of space they occupy. I know plenty of people that just don't WANT a dog that needs a 36-48" crate in their van and at tournaments, regardless of longevity or how fast the dog can run.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't think the thread is really about how fast they can be in flyball, it's whether or not the current conformation standard is a detriment to the breed's versatility. Flyball is just an example. I personally feel the breed would be better off if there were a higher regard for athletic ability and hardiness, but that's just my personal opinion.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Konotashi said:


> I'll never pick a dog for the sake of doing a sport.


:happyboogie:

You would be amazed at the number of people that get a dog for a specific sport and then, when the dog can't make it to the top levels, they dump the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> I don't think the thread is really about how fast they can be in flyball, it's whether or not the current conformation standard is a detriment to the breed's versatility. Flyball is just an example. I personally feel the breed would be better off if there were a higher regard for athletic ability and hardiness, but that's just my personal opinion.


I agree, but I don't think that's the breed standard, just people not really putting breeding dogs to the test, or not making this a priority when breeding. Plenty of normal sized, athletic dogs that live long, healthy lives still fit the standard but aren't bred or aren't as popular because they are not VA, WUSV, etc... 

Longevity can be hard to promote because say you are looking for a new dog and find a nice litter where the parents are 3 and 6 years old. Everything checks out, dogs have all the necessarily health checks and have been healthy and successful in whatever field of training they do. Now the next year the sire passes away very quickly and a year after that, the dam passes away. Not a great example of longevity but at that point, what can you do other than not breed your own dog? You're still kind of stuck with what you're stuck with at that point and hope your dog lives past 7.

Personally I avoid lines with really heavy bone and any extra "bulk" (too much bone, massive head, barrel chest, huge deep chest, "wet" appearance with loose skin, etc). I know people say these dogs can "work" just fine, but often they are referring to running an AD once as a young dog and then earning IPO titles. While, as someone who does IPO, I can understand the level of work and commitment that takes, I wouldn't call it physically taxing on my dog or his athletic ability the same way as competing at something like flyball or agility above a novice level. So, I don't think IPO is really a test of athletic ability and the dog's potential to physically work until his senior years, but again I don't see that as an issue with the overall conformation of the breed, just people's breeding choices and what dogs they promote.

If the OP wants a smaller, finer boned working line GSD with a more Mal-like structure, fine, go get one. My first GSD was 50lbs, 21", finer boned, lacking a lot of angulation but balanced front and rear. She was probably my best moving dog as far as watching how effortlessly she could gait and how long she could go before even breaking into a pant.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think there is a basic misunderstanding of conformation in this thread. The gsd is designed to be a ulitarian breed based off of herding dogs. Their structure is such that they should be able to cover large amount of ground at a trot with little energy expended. Watch an hgh trial sometime and pay attention to how these dogs are moving. 

Making a gsd as short bodied and high in the rear as a mal would be eliminating that effortless trot and would not be correct structure. Gsds come in a wide range of sizes and have structure that varies enough that if you are looking for something that is more mal like for your own reasons then get it. But gsds have structure that lends itself well to many different working venues and to change that would be foolish. To make a gsd more mal like to get a better flyball dog or ring dog would be foolish and catering to the exact problems that are already plaguing this breed. Many gsds can easily do the exercises in ring sports. Well they win? No. But who cares? Its a sport.


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## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

Very interesting thread. :thumbup: Brings to the surface a lot of questions I have had swimming around in my head for a while.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I think there is a basic misunderstanding of conformation in this thread. The gsd is designed to be a ulitarian breed based off of herding dogs. Their structure is such that they should be able to cover large amount of ground at a trot with little energy expended. Watch an hgh trial sometime and pay attention to how these dogs are moving.
> 
> Making a gsd as short bodied and high in the rear as a mal would be eliminating that effortless trot and would not be correct structure. Gsds come in a wide range of sizes and have structure that varies enough that if you are looking for something that is more mal like for your own reasons then get it. But gsds have structure that lends itself well to many different working venues and to change that would be foolish. To make a gsd more mal like to get a better flyball dog or ring dog would be foolish and catering to the exact problems that are already plaguing this breed. Many gsds can easily do the exercises in ring sports. Well they win? No. But who cares? Its a sport.


Just wondering, but I look at border collies who can travel 50, 60, 70 plus miles a day on very hilly terrain herding sheep and they are often flat to a little high in the rear. I don't think that this alone equates to a structure flaw. The shepherds of old were also very square dogs. I just alway wonder where people get the angulation makes the trot effortless... For just trot endurance I would put my border collies over my GSDs any day of the week.... 


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

MilesNY said:


> Just wondering, but I look at border collies who can travel 50, 60, 70 plus miles a day on very hilly terrain herding sheep and they are often flat to a little high in the rear. I don't think that this alone equates to a structure flaw. The shepherds of old were also very square dogs. I just alway wonder where people get the angulation makes the trot effortless... For just trot endurance I would put my border collies over my GSDs any day of the week....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I never said angulation equals an effortless trot. .. that's an excuse the asl folks use  but super straight shoulders is not correct either. Comparing border collies and gsds conformation in relation to herding is really apples top oranges. Gsds serve as a "live fence" for very large herds hence why that long strided effortless trot is so important.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> There are lines of GSD's that are very similar to a Malinois structure-wise...in fact they look just like a sable Mal. If you want a GSD with a more compact structure for sportwork, it isn't hard to find one. But I don't know how long a body will hold up to repetitive sport such as flyball. Does anyone have any stats on the longevity of a GSD in the sport and how the body holds up? They seem to be far and few between as most don't choose the breed for flyball.


Harley's mother did flyball from 2001 until 2010. She was born in 1999- died 2011. It didn't seem to have any adverse affects on her body. 
Teez


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