# Ownership demands affecting the breed?



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Increasingly more and more you see instances of people who have acquired this breed and don't have a clue about the breed or the history of the breed. They lack basic skills and common sense to raise any dog much less a dog that has bred bred to work and do guard work. They lack the living conditions or the time and effort to properly allow the dog to develop. They want the dog to be something inconsistent with its past. 
Is this affecting what the breed is today and what the breed has become???? And should breeders first obligation be to try to produce dogs that will meet these people desires???
Or should the breed be changed in standard and expectation to accomodate this influx.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I am one of these people. Daily I hope amaretto turns into this mellow gentle dog, which she just wasn't bred to be. Honestly, a better decision would've been to pick an easier breed. But I do feel that there are at least two types of ignorant owners, ones who remain in the dark and ones who improve their ownership skills so that they become compatible with the breed. 

So no, I don't think Breeders should cater to the likes of me. I couldve chosen another breed or I can improve my skills. If I refused t do either I'm not an example of a good dog owner that breeders would want to send dogs to either way. 

Besides, there ARE people who want gsds for all of their traits. Why put those at an disadvantage.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Just some numbers on the popularity of the German Shepherd, according to AKC only (not counting the junk registries and the dogs not registered):

AKC Dog Registration Statistics
Goes back to 2000

In 1925, the German Shepherd Dog displaced the Boston Terrier, seizing the number one spot

Shortly after Rin Tin Tin was featured in the Warner Brothers film _Man From ****’s River_ (1922), the German Shepherd Dog was number one from 1925-1928
(both from AKC)
*

Popularity*

"When the UK Kennel Club first accepted registrations for the breed in 1919, fifty-four dogs were registered, and by 1926 this number had grown to over 8,000.[5] The breed first gained international recognition at the decline of World War I after returning soldiers spoke highly of the breed, and animal actors Rin Tin Tin and Strongheart popularised the breed further.[10] The first German Shepherd Dog registered in the United States was _Queen of Switzerland_; however, her offspring suffered from defects as the result of poor breeding, which caused the breed to suffer a decline in popularity during the late 1920s.[10]


Popularity increased again after the German Shepherd _Sieger Pfeffer von Bern_ became the 1937 and 1938 Grand Victor in American Kennel club dog shows, only to suffer another decline at the conclusion of World War II, due to anti-German sentiment of the time.[10] As time progressed, their popularity increased gradually until 1993, when they became the third most popular breed in the United States. As of 2009, the breed was the second most popular in the US.[10][11] Additionally, the breed is typically among the most popular in other registries.[10] "
German Shepherd Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Of course thats what is happening. I know this is a rhetorical question meant to spark debate, but still...

Unfortunately this is what has happened to all the popular breeds. The couch potato labrador found in most American homes is a far cry these days from its field working cousins. Mellowed and blunted, they've turned into pillows and furniture that need to be fed. Its the dumbing down of America, and its happening in alot more than dogs. 

Another aspect is the litigious nature of society. Stupidity is rewarded. At one time, if a person stuck their hand through a fence into the yard of a barking dog and got bit, well everyone would blame the person for being foolish and ask them what they expected to happen. Now we reward their stupidity and allow it to flourish...


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

marshies said:


> I am one of these people. Daily I hope amaretto turns into this mellow gentle dog, which she just wasn't bred to be. Honestly, a better decision would've been to pick an easier breed. But I do feel that there are at least two types of ignorant owners, ones who remain in the dark and ones who improve their ownership skills so that they become compatible with the breed.
> 
> So no, I don't think Breeders should cater to the likes of me. I couldve chosen another breed or I can improve my skills. If I refused t do either I'm not an example of a good dog owner that breeders would want to send dogs to either way.
> 
> Besides, there ARE people who want gsds for all of their traits. Why put those at an disadvantage.


With time and training Amaretto will be a mellow gentle dog.....with proper leadership, training and LOTS of exercise and mentally stimulating activity. Kaos has never been a laid back guy who would welcome anyone into his personal space or home without at least a thorough inspection....but he is the most mellow and gentle creature I could hope for in having him with my kids for what is coming up on 10 years.
I like that he is the sweetest thing I've ever known.....but is constantly "watching" to make sure everything is "safe" for his family. I think you are proving yourself to be a fantastic owner...you did so much research and prep before bringing your puppy home and you continue to try to learn as much as you can to be the owner she needs you to be. Unfortunately though in my opinion you are in the minority.

As to the OP...I think "good" breeders should continue doing what they do, breeding the best they can to have all of those traits that make them special there. The loyalty, solidness of nerves, courage, etc. I think those breeders should continue in that endeavor as well as continue to thoroughly screen and educate people they choose to sell their puppies too. I don't think we will ever see an end to BYB's of unstable dogs or an end to people who want a GSD for the wrong reasons without a clue or care to what these dogs are, should be and need.

I for one look forward to the day we can start researching breeders for the next "best" dog we've ever had:wub: and I commend breeders who continue to strive for that as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think I'd like to address specific things in this.



cliffson1 said:


> Increasingly more and more you see instances of people who have acquired this breed and don't have a clue about the breed or the history of the breed.


Is knowing the breed's history a requirement to dog ownership? I know the basics on the history of the German Shepherd and had NO idea when I adopted Jax. So, given the basis of the WHOLE post....

Yes...Buyer demands are affecting the breed with breeders who don't care about the history and what a German Shepherd should be. However, along with buyer demands, the judges and breeders are also responsible. When breeders breed to win, I think that changes the breed just as much as buyer demands.



cliffson1 said:


> They lack basic skills and common sense to raise any dog much less a dog that has bred bred to work and do guard work. They lack the living conditions or the time and effort to properly allow the dog to develop. They want the dog to be something inconsistent with its past.


Could you please expand on this? Living conditions? Are there living conditions specific to any breed? People live in apartments and can still allow the dog to properly develop.

Now...common sense and basic skills...that's lacking in all parts of our society and the more technologically driven our society becomes, the worse it gets.

But inconsistent with its past....along with being working dogs, aren't German Shepherds also supposed to be able to adapt to all conditions? If the dog is a service dog, is that still considered a working dog? Under conditions that are not rigorous living conditions such as a police dog or a herding dog?



cliffson1 said:


> And should breeders first obligation be to try to produce dogs that will meet these people desires???
> Or should the breed be changed in standard and expectation to accomodate this influx.


NO! No, Breeders should NOT produce dogs to meet a person's desires. NO! The standard should not be changed to meet expectations.

That is how many breeds have been ruined. The Cocker Spaniel was ruined when a queen favored them and they became popular. Now, you have beautiful dogs that are known for biting because they bred the temperament out. How about the Collie? I love Collie's. They were always my choice before I had a GSD. But how many of them can actually work anymore?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> That is how many breeds have been ruined. The Cocker Spaniel was ruined when a queen favored them and they became popular. Now, you have beautiful dogs that are known for biting because they bred the temperament out. How about the Collie? I love Collie's. They were always my choice before I had a GSD. But how many of them can actually work anymore?


Popularity is definitely ruining breeds.

There are tons of coach potato, mean, unhealthy, nervy GSDs out there.

The Dalmatian was ruined when 101 Dalmatians came out, everyone wanted one, bybs sprouted up everywhere trying to make a quick buck. I want a Dalmatian and everytime I tell someone that I always get the same responses "they are very mean dogs", "they are very unhealthy" and "I have been bitten by one before."

It's sad that so many breeds are ruined because of popularity.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> Is knowing the breed's history a requirement to dog ownership? I know the basics on the history of the German Shepherd and had NO idea when I adopted Jax. So, given the basis of the WHOLE post....


I don't think they need to know about Captain Max and the Swabians (which would be a great name for a band by the way), but they DO need to understand that it's a working breed, a herding breed, a guarding breed. They need to understand that desire to work and the spark of aggression that exists in a good GSD that isn't there in a lot of other breeds. 




Jax08 said:


> Yes...Buyer demands are affecting the breed with breeders who don't care about the history and what a German Shepherd should be. However, along with buyer demands, the judges and breeders are also responsible. When breeders breed to win, I think that changes the breed just as much as buyer demands.


I think from a numbers standpoint, uneducated pet buyers are affecting the breed a lot more than conformation judges.





Jax08 said:


> Could you please expand on this? Living conditions? Are there living conditions specific to any breed? People live in apartments and can still allow the dog to properly develop.


I can't speak for Cliff, but to me the living conditions have nothing to do with whether the family lives in an apartment, shack, or mansion, and everything to do with whether of not that person is willing to take the dog on as kind of a hobby. If you're not willing to spend a fair bit of your free time on your dog, you probably shouldn't get a German Shepherd puppy. 

I _don't_ think that breeders should change the breed to suit the desires of the average pet buyer. I think what we are going to see, however, is a huge dichotomy even bigger than the one between work and show: the divide between the "pet" GSD and. . . what? The "real" GSD? The "old fashioned" GSD? Oh wait that one's already taken. We need to think of a name, because it's happening.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think I mentioned anything about requirements for ownership, I do think I see people who are acquiring GS that don't have a clue that the breed was created for certain things, thus some traits are strong in the breed, and these traits are often the exact opposite of what they want or are prepared to deal with.
Don't think I said that living conditions are specific to any breed much less a GS, but many people acquiring a GS do not have the right environment, in conjunction with their ownership skills to allow a GS to exist in the environment without problems. 
The German Shepherd is a very adaptible dog to almost any situation with PROPER training or instruction. But a well bred GS comes with certain foundation traits, require common sense, training, and understanding of the breed for you to get the good results.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Marshies....I have big time respect:hug: for your post. When people can see inward as well as outward I think society benefits as a whole.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I was just trying to understand what exactly you were asking.  Thank you for expanding on it. 

I agree with what you are saying. I think many ppl get a dog (of any breed) and just don't have a clue. DH still doesn't and doesn't want to.

I didn't! Not until Miss Jax nailed me in the face as a puppy. Then finding a trainer that understands the breed and can help is a whole other topic! I wasted two years of training and still not understanding before I got smart on that. It's a learning process...no doubt about that. 



cliffson1 said:


> I don't think I mentioned anything about requirements for ownership, I do think I see people who are acquiring GS that don't have a clue that the breed was created for certain things, thus some traits are strong in the breed, and these traits are often the exact opposite of what they want or are prepared to deal with.
> Don't think I said that living conditions are specific to any breed much less a GS, but many people acquiring a GS do not have the right environment, in conjunction with their ownership skills to allow a GS to exist in the environment without problems.
> The German Shepherd is a very adaptible dog to almost any situation with PROPER training or instruction. But a well bred GS comes with certain foundation traits, require common sense, training, and understanding of the breed for you to get the good results.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Of course thats what is happening. I know this is a rhetorical question meant to spark debate, but still...
> _*
> Unfortunately this is what has happened to all the popular breeds. The couch potato labrador found in most American homes is a far cry these days from its field working cousins. Mellowed and blunted, they've turned into pillows and furniture that need to be fed.*_ Its the dumbing down of America, and its happening in alot more than dogs.
> 
> Another aspect is the litigious nature of society. Stupidity is rewarded. At one time, if a person stuck their hand through a fence into the yard of a barking dog and got bit, well everyone would blame the person for being foolish and ask them what they expected to happen. Now we reward their stupidity and allow it to flourish...



It depends on whether you're talking American Labradors or English Labradors. I suspect some of the "blunted" and "mellowed" ones you've seen are English. There is a big difference between the two. Just because a dog is hyper vs mellow doesn't mean one is necessarily smarter than the other.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Is this affecting what the breed is today and what the breed has become???? And should breeders first obligation be to try to produce dogs that will meet these people desires???
> Or should the breed be changed in standard and expectation to accomodate this influx.


Yes.

NO and NO. To do so would change what is the essence of the German Shepherd Dog. Enough damage has been done since, for the most part, these things have already happened.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

BR870 said:


> Unfortunately this is what has happened to all the popular breeds. The couch potato labrador found in most American homes is a far cry these days from its field working cousins. Mellowed and blunted, they've turned into pillows and furniture that need to be fed. Its the dumbing down of America, and its happening in alot more than dogs.


I can totally relate to this. I had a black lab when I was a kid, that my father worked, and hunted with. She was very hyper, and always looking for something to do. When she saw my father getting a gun out, she would quiver with excitement and whine. Today I have two friends with labs and they are the quietest, most lazy dogs I have seen. I always say to them, that's not the way a lab is supposed to act.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Thanks, Cliff! Read you LOUD and CLEAR. :thumbup:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> And should breeders first obligation be to try to produce dogs that will meet these people desires???
> Or should the breed be changed in standard and expectation to accomodate this influx.


I don't think you're going to find anyone (on this board, anyway) who thinks we ought to change the breed standard to fit modern American lifestyles.

However, breeders do it and will probably continue to do it, because there is a demand for it. I can't remember how many "old fashion large straight back" type breeders I've seen who brag about their dogs' LACK of energy and drive. While I confess that I love a laid-back, calm GSD who does not need a 12 mile run just to be civilized in the house, the breed was never meant to be a soft, easygoing, lazy couch-potato type of dog. 

For that reason, some have gone on to create Shiloh shepherds, and the like. Dogs that look like GSD but don't act like one. Dumbing down the GSD to fit a wider variety of lifestyles.

In a perfect world, people would get the dog that fits their lifestyle, rather than trying to cram a dog into a lifestyle that does not fit. But people fall in love with a dog's looks, and sometimes with the status or cachet of owning one, and do not take into consideration the characteristics the dog was originally bred for.

I have met a good many Pit Bulls that are sweet, laid-back, friendly, non-aggressive couch potatoes. However, I don't care for dog-aggression and as much as I like Pits, why would I own a dog bred for fighting if I don't want my dog to fight? 

Going off topic a bit, but if any breed needs to change in order to fit modern lifestyles, it would be Pit Bulls. There is no place in society for a dog that wants to fight other dogs. So the Pit Bull must either change or die out. I am sure many will disagree with me, and argue that dog-aggression and gameness is what the breed is all about, and that it should never change. However, I just don't see a use for fighting in this day and age (or any day and age, for that matter), and to continue breeding a dog that likes to fight does no good for anyone, including the dogs themselves.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Unless they were raised in a breeder or training household, I'm just wondering how much ANYONE knew before they got their first GSD...


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Yes, buyer demands are effecting the ways the dogs are bred. People want to produce what they can market in order to make a profit.
This is what ruins many breeds.

I think a German Shepherd should always be bred to standard and I would only support a breeder who screens her buyers to make sure they have enough level of knowledde to know and provide for what they are getting.

Many people see how well trained Benny is or the tricks he knows, and say "I want a dog like that". I try and explain that it takes a lot of work to get them trained like that, and for us a ongoing process. Many people think they can just keep them in the yard all day, not do anything beyond a puppy class.

A GSD's are not dogs that fit into the average persons life. They are for people who want to fit their life around their dog.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think it's a fair assumption to assume that those who purchase a GSD for the first time didn't do any research. There are many people who are first time dog owners ever who did research and feel they made the best decision for their family with the GSD. It is really up to the 'reputable' breeder to match the dog with the family. 

There is a drive today for people to protect themselves. Some families see a dog as protection. If they were to go to the AKC website and look at the different breeds, this is what they find regarding the GSD:

*{Right Breed for Your Lifestyle*
Energetic and fun-loving, the breed is very fond of children once a relationship is established. He is a loyal family pet and a good guard dog, the ideal choice for many families. He requires regular exercise and grooming.}

This sounds to me like the perfect dog for a family. New dog owners (who are looking for a pet) don't see the need to look into different lines etc. Not that they don't care, they just don't realize there are other things to consider. 

I think there us a large number of members on this forum who can relate to this.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> With time and training Amaretto will be a mellow gentle dog.....with proper leadership, training and LOTS of exercise and mentally stimulating activity. Kaos has never been a laid back guy who would welcome anyone into his personal space or home without at least a thorough inspection....but he is the most mellow and gentle creature I could hope for in having him with my kids for what is coming up on 10 years.
> I like that he is the sweetest thing I've ever known.....but is constantly "watching" to make sure everything is "safe" for his family. I think you are proving yourself to be a fantastic owner...you did so much research and prep before bringing your puppy home and you continue to try to learn as much as you can to be the owner she needs you to be. Unfortunately though in my opinion you are in the minority.
> 
> As to the OP...I think "good" breeders should continue doing what they do, breeding the best they can to have all of those traits that make them special there. The loyalty, solidness of nerves, courage, etc. I think those breeders should continue in that endeavor as well as continue to thoroughly screen and educate people they choose to sell their puppies too. I don't think we will ever see an end to BYB's of unstable dogs or an end to people who want a GSD for the wrong reasons without a clue or care to what these dogs are, should be and need.
> ...


Thank you for the post. It's exactly what I wanted to express. With consistent work and leadership, she WILL become any kind of dog I want. It's the people who arnt willing to put forth the work or aren't skilled enough to accomplish the training that are pushing up the demand for a softer dog Overall. I don't think there's anythin wrong with the demand for a softer dog, it's just that they are trying to meet it through breeding softer German shepherds instead of choosing another breed. 

On the realistic side though, if people keep returning dogs to breeders because they are too much for them, then breeders will change what they are breeding for or face a very restricted customer base.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I am among those who were ignorant of the breed's history and the specific demands of bringing up a GSD. But as soon as I got the dog I started reading MANY books about them and got a good understanding of the history and standards, both physical and temperament. Had to learn the landshark phase on my own. The knowledge acquired by reading alone (wish I had known of this forum before she was 1) led me to have certain expectations, some of which were not met.
Jumping to the last part of the post, I don't think the questions were rhetorical because the OP wants a response.
Yes, many breeders are breeding to the marketplace rather than the standard. We are seeing over-sized, weak-nerved, physically 'weird' specimens in addition to many other faults.
No, breeders should not breed for the marketplace. They should attempt to stay with or move toward every part of the standard.
Anecdotally: At one point in our lives we looked into getting a Viszla. Went to a breeder. That breeder asked what we knew about Viszlas and required a home visit and a thorough interview. We thought: What a snob! Forget it! We were wrong. That is how German Shepherd breeders should be. Both dedicated to the breed and dedicated to seeing that the dogs are properly placed.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lakl said:


> Unless they were raised in a breeder or training household, I'm just wondering how much ANYONE knew before they got their first GSD...


Good point. I'll be willing to bet that most first time GSD owners who have had no prior experience with the breed but got one based on reputation had no idea what they were getting into. They were probably hit with a real culture shock once they brought that active dog home for the first time and realized what they got themselves into.

There was once a time when there was no internet and message boards, before people logged online and read about what this breed really is like, who the best breeders are, what it takes to raise this breed, etc. You had to either read books or go out to clubs and meet the breed which I bet a large majority of the typical pet market just don't do and they purchased on impulse.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I as a first time owner did not know everything I needed to. It wasn't a rushed decision by any means, but there were a lot of things I was either unaware of or didn't realize how big of an impact they would have. However...we were devoted to him so we did research, worked with trainers and tried as hard as we could to become what he needed..... I for one think that next time we are looking I want a breeder who seems as picky about me as I am about them.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I have had dogs my entire adult life. Shelties in the beginning, then my adored field bred lab. I have read and researched and watched GSD's the whole time, wanting one like mad, but knowing I was not ready. Now that I am, I still looked for a specific temperament that would match my novice GSD abilities. I know I am not ready for a working line dog 

But I will say this, after working with retriever rescue for a while I noticed that temperament problems were coming from breeding away from true lab temperament. They are not supposed to be "soft" dogs with no energy.They aren't supposed to be as wired for sound as many field breds are either. A good lab is a tough minded, intelligent, curious, biddable, bonded to their person, excited to go to work dog who can switch it off and be a gentleman/woman in the house. They should be willing and able to work independently yet still be highly responsive to their handler. They should be able to handle a correction without coming apart. 

And don't even get me started on the disaster that shelties have become 

The long and the short of it is that in my opinion breeding a dog "down" to be a soft and submissive animal actually causes the temperament problems we see in many breeds today. By breeding to what people falsely believe will make an "easier" dog that is "better" for families, they are actually achieving the exact opposite.

I saw more fear aggression and its related behavioral problems with dogs whose surrendering owners would say "I just don't understand it. The breeder said s/he was bred for temperament, to be a good family pet, but s/he _____ (insert fear biting, resource guarding,reactive with children,dog reactive, separation anxiety, what-have-you here)"

Of course there are people breeding purely for performance/sport that are doing damage as well. Dogs who lack an "off switch" are not correct for most breed types either. Watch a high level flyball team sometime and see how many of those dogs cannot be out of their crate until expected to perform. If this is happening with ring sports too, wow, talk about a dangerous game to be playing with genetics, imo.

I'll shut up now and return to lurking and reading and learning


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

.


cliffson1 said:


> They lack basic skills and common sense to raise any dog much less a dog that has bred bred to work and do guard work. They lack the living conditions or the time and effort to properly allow the dog to develop. They want the dog to be something inconsistent with its past.
> Is this affecting what the breed is today and what the breed has become????


I think this part of your post is extremely important. 
There are many posts and threads that make me think that GSD's are treated like the Toy Poodle was years ago.
I think the view of the roll of a family GS is way different than when I grew up.
We all love our dogs but some seem to view them almost as a child. Loving a dog does not mean forgetting it's a dog. It doesn't mean trying to make it something it isn't or wasn't supposed to be.
I like my dogs to be independent to some degree but I have seen others who want their GS to be velcro all the time. They don't want them to go ouside without mommy or daddy present because of all the horrible things that can happen. If they are not underfoot or with the family then they must be in a crate to protect them.
If I was going to keep my dog that way then I would want a mellow laid back GSD.
So I would either find someone who bred mellow, laid back GSD'S or get another breed that I could snuggle with all day. 
I don't believe in overprotecting dogs. They don't learn to think and the potential for fear to become part of them is too great.
I think the breed will continue to change because of the market for an easier softer version.
As long as there is a market for those type dogs there will be breeders to supply them.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I certainly don't think breeders should breed for anything less than the standard says, but I think genetics has a lot to do with how some dogs are, period. When I was a mere 20 I got my first shepherd, and all I knew is whatever I'd heard. I'm still surprised that dog was as awesome as he was. I didn't have the internet, got some books on training from the library, but mostly flew by the seat of my pants. I took him everywhere with me, (didn't know about keeping them off the ground) but did not make a concerted effort to get him around children. When I had my kids starting 5 years later, he was absolutely completely trustworthy around all of them--including my nephews and later my nieces. 

I think temperament is genetically sound or not. I guess I was lucky--looking back, he was most definitely a confident, dominating dog, but he for sure knew his leader was his humans (me, but later my husband as well) and he was not the least bit inappropriately aggressive ever. He also seemed to not be a terrible landshark, although I remember working at my job one day and a customer asking "WHAT happened to your arms!?!?" LOL


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Lakl said:


> Unless they were raised in a breeder or training household, I'm just wondering how much ANYONE knew before they got their first GSD...


 When I got my first dog I had no idea there were show dogs/working dogs/German/Czech/East /West/American-My first breeder educated me a little and then just owning a dog I learned more about them :doggieplayball:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just a comment on the viszla story. The problem with screening buyers is that as a consumer we aren't used to getting told "no." If I'm willing to spend $1500+ on a dog, then I should get the dog I want. If one, two, three, breeders tell me no, I'll find one that will say yes. And this one might be a byb, but I won't care. I got my dog. This kind of attitude, and the way some rescues treat "sub-par" potential owners is a big part of what allows bybs to make money and exist.

I got my dog when I was living in a one bedroom apartment. The local humane society or other rescues would've never given me a GSD, but I wanted one. Sadly, we can't tell people what they can and can't have. That's why I do see it as a good thing that there are "calmer" lines. Thousands of GSDs end up in shelters every year because the owner is over whelmed, think of what would happen if those people on the boarder got a working line instead of a calmer line. Those would all end up in shelters also. Not breeding for the customer or the market is a mistake in my opinion. As much as it hurts the breed, if it wasn't done, it would hurt thousands and thousands of dogs. If owning a GSD meant owning a Schutzhund dog, there would be thousands more in shelters, because at the core of it, people want a GSD for its look and its wikipedia description.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't believe in overprotecting dogs. They don't learn to think and the potential for fear to become part of them is too great.


This is fascinating to me because one person's overprotecting is another persons's common sense. What is it if you let your dog ride in the cab of the truck instead of being lose in the truck bed? Overprotecting or common sense? If my dog chokes on a tennis ball and dies, and you hear about it and take away your dog's tennis ball, is that overprotective? If my friend's dog knocks over his water dish on a 110-degree day and dies of heat stroke and thirst, so I decide to keep my dog inside, is that overprotective? Who gets to decide?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> I like my dogs to be independent to some degree but I have seen others who want their GS to be velcro all the time. They don't want them to go ouside without mommy or daddy present because of all the horrible things that can happen. If they are not underfoot or with the family then they must be in a crate to protect them.


Aren't dogs naturally pack animals? Wouldn't it be against their natural instinct to become independent?

You mentioned humanizing dogs by overprotecting them, but you wouldn't consider wanting them to be independent to be humanizing when it's not what they're natural instinct tells them to be?

I know when I try to let my dog outside by herself, and I have attempted it before, she just waits by the door for me to come out too.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Going off topic a bit, but if any breed needs to change in order to fit modern lifestyles, it would be Pit Bulls. There is no place in society for a dog that wants to fight other dogs. So the Pit Bull must either change or die out. I am sure many will disagree with me, and argue that dog-aggression and gameness is what the breed is all about, and that it should never change. However, I just don't see a use for fighting in this day and age (or any day and age, for that matter), and to continue breeding a dog that likes to fight does no good for anyone, including the dogs themselves.


Why? That "gameness" makes them very good catch dogs. The pitbull is probably the most common hog hunting dog in the US. And feral hog populations are only getting worse...

Most people would argue that there is even less room in society for human aggressive dogs in society. Yet here we sit on a German Shepherd Dog forum, and the GSD if "well bred" should have appropriate human aggression.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Just a comment on the viszla story. The problem with screening buyers is that as a consumer we aren't used to getting told "no." If I'm willing to spend $1500+ on a dog, then I should get the dog I want. If one, two, three, breeders tell me no, I'll find one that will say yes. And this one might be a byb, but I won't care. I got my dog. This kind of attitude, and the way some rescues treat "sub-par" potential owners is a big part of what allows bybs to make money and exist.
> 
> I got my dog when I was living in a one bedroom apartment. The local humane society or other rescues would've never given me a GSD, but I wanted one. Sadly, we can't tell people what they can and can't have. That's why I do see it as a good thing that there are "calmer" lines. Thousands of GSDs end up in shelters every year because the owner is over whelmed, think of what would happen if those people on the boarder got a working line instead of a calmer line. Those would all end up in shelters also. Not breeding for the customer or the market is a mistake in my opinion. As much as it hurts the breed, if it wasn't done, it would hurt thousands and thousands of dogs. If owning a GSD meant owning a Schutzhund dog, there would be thousands more in shelters, because at the core of it, people want a GSD for its look and its wikipedia description.


 
This is just my opinion but this is where a good breeder is invaluable. Just because it is "working" lines or they are bred by a breeder with intention of work...there are inevitably softer dogs in that line with the same core strong nerves. So I think if you approached a breeder and said I want a dog that is suited for family life (ie a involved family wanting a companion not a decoration) their knowledge would be the key to evaluating which pup has that ability and wouldn't be "bored to bad behavior" in such an environment. Not breeding to customers wants which are often whimsical and always changing may be a bad business decision money wise....but in my opinion it is a good decision in protecting the breed. Unfortunately you're right people don't want to be told no and people don't want to have to measure up to any standard......and sadly there will always be someone to take the money of someone who is not prepared for a GSD let alone a plant...but that doesn't mean good breeders should lower their standards. Again just my opinion....but then again if I wanted a soft dog I'd get a .....well I don't even know because I don't want one so I've never done the research.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Aren't dogs naturally pack animals? Wouldn't it be against their natural instinct to become independent?
> 
> You mentioned humanizing dogs by overprotecting them, but you wouldn't consider wanting them to be independent to be humanizing when it's not what they're natural instinct tells them to be?
> 
> I know when I try to let my dog outside by herself, and I have attempted it before, she just waits by the door for me to come out too.


So they are pack animals. As soon as man feeds them puts a leash on them and trains them, they are no longer what they were in a natural setting.

Put a bit in a horse mouth, a saddle on it, train it the horse is not the same.

We humanize them when we feel compelled to treat them like they were children instead of dogs. We keep them in comfy homes at the proper temperatures for humans. They sleep in beds, on sofas etc. I don't think that's very close to there natural state.

Emoore. I agree that people will define common sense vs overprotecting differently. 
I am also aware that a lot of people won't agree with me about it. 

There is however a big difference between health protectiveness and over protecting. 

You will better be able to see this in overprotected children. They are unsure of themselves, lesslikely to make good decision or make decisions at all. I could go on but you get the idea.

Most of the younger people won't agree with me and that's ok.I've had dogs of one type or another, mostly GSD's and labs for 50 to 60 years and really don't agree with a lot of what goes on now.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> So they are pack animals. As soon as man feeds them puts a leash on them and trains them, they are no longer what they were in a natural setting.
> 
> Put a bit in a horse mouth, a saddle on it, train it the horse is not the same.
> 
> We humanize them when we feel compelled to treat them like they were children instead of dogs. We keep them in comfy homes at the proper temperatures for humans. They sleep in beds, on sofas etc. I don't think that's very close to there natural state.


So it's ok to humanize and/or coddle them in one way (feeding, training, letting them sleep comfortably, etc), but not in another (not wanting them to be independent)?

ETA: I think there's a difference with having them in their natural state and their natural instincts. Their natural state (per their genetics) were thrown out the window a long time ago when canines were domesticated. They still have their natural instincts no matter what setting they live in.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Freestep said:


> But people fall in love with a dog's looks, and sometimes with the status or cachet of owning one, and do not take into consideration the characteristics the dog was originally bred for.


 The GSD was originally developed as a herding dog. The breed's job changed because the need for herding dogs declined. Regardless of what they became after that point, that's what they were originally bred for. 
So when people talk about maintaining the original characteristics or purpose of the dog, but are referring to the dogs being used as K-9's, military dogs etc. using the term "originally bred for" is a little misleading. 

If the dog doesn't have the natural instinct needed for herding, it's no longer like the original GSD's. This is one change in the breed people don't seem to have a hard time accepting. Maybe it's because it happened so long ago, but that doesn't erase history. Breeds evolve and change based on the wants and needs of the people producing the dogs. They always have, they always will. No one should be surprised when they see it happen. 

I don't think the standard should be changed to meet the whims of the general public, but how the standard is interpreted needs serious work. If a timid dog walking on it's hocks can win points towards it's CH, there's a problem. If the SCHIII dog can't be trusted out in public without a muzzle and a prong, there's a problem. Breeders, judges and parent clubs need to do a better job to insure that the standard is clearly understood and enforced. 



Freestep said:


> For that reason, some have gone on to create Shiloh shepherds, and the like. Dogs that look like GSD but don't act like one. Dumbing down the GSD to fit a wider variety of lifestyles.


Tina Barber did what many breeders don't have the guts to do. Rather than breed against the standard and try to convince people that it was okay, she walked away from the AKC and the breed. Dumbing down the GSD as you call it would be up for debate, but it's a moot point. The Shiloh Shepherd isn't a GSD, it only has certain similar traits. This woman didn't hurt the GSD breed on any level.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mysweetkaos said:


> This is just my opinion but this is where a good breeder is invaluable. Just because it is "working" lines or they are bred by a breeder with intention of work...there are inevitably softer dogs in that line with the same core strong nerves. So I think if you approached a breeder and said I want a dog that is suited for family life (ie a involved family wanting a companion not a decoration) their knowledge would be the key to evaluating which pup has that ability and wouldn't be "bored to bad behavior" in such an environment. Not breeding to customers wants which are often whimsical and always changing may be a bad business decision money wise....but in my opinion it is a good decision in protecting the breed. Unfortunately you're right people don't want to be told no and people don't want to have to measure up to any standard......and sadly there will always be someone to take the money of someone who is not prepared for a GSD let alone a plant...but that doesn't mean good breeders should lower their standards. Again just my opinion....but then again if I wanted a soft dog I'd get a .....well I don't even know because I don't want one so I've never done the research.


I guess its not that good breeders should lower their standards but its that certain lines have to evolve. I know what you mean by those "not fit for sport" dogs that come out of every litter, but even those are too much for some people to handle. I've seen plenty of people get those dogs and they are just too much for them. While I have also seen people get American lines that are perfect for the kind of lifestyle they live. These lines are conformation bred and come from very good, knowledgeable breeders. I would never want one personally, but they are perfect dogs for the people that have them.

I have talked to people that have a dog from great working lines because they did their research, and the dog doesn't get anywhere near the exercise it needs. In the hands of the right owner, it would be an amazing dog, but in their hands, its a waste. I guess I'm looking from the side where I understand there is no stopping people from buying the breed they want, what you can do is give them one that fits their life. Not one that's completely like a Shiloh, but one that isn't your Schutzhund 3 dog either.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> So it's ok to humanize and/or coddle them in one way (feeding, training, letting them sleep comfortably, etc), but not in another (not wanting them to be independent)?
> 
> ETA: I think there's a difference with having them in their natural state and their natural instincts. Their natural state (per their genetics) were thrown out the window a long time ago when canines were domesticated. They still have their natural instincts no matter what setting they live in.


Well I don't think their natural state or natural instincts or their genetics lean towards living the coddled life that some seem to think they were meant for.
They are dogs. Working dogs. Born and bred to work outside in all kinds of weather. They are strong, loyal to their master, supposed to be brave and intelligent. Not a needy creature that needs to be coddled all day long.
I think many are housebound, fearful creatures because there natural instincts are not allowed to come forth.
Too many people want a 80 to 100lb. lap dog that they are afraid to let out of their sight. They like that the dog is glued to their ankle. I guess it keeps them both safe.
The good news is that there are a lot of dogs out there for those individuals and I think there will be a lot more in the future.
Not my cup of tea though.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

@Marshies......Your understanding, intelligence & determination...are just a few of the reasons that I value puppy owners like yourself.....
We have been blessed...honestly.

Breeders should not *dumb down* their breeding(s)....God knows, it is hard enough to produce good, stable dogs.....and the normal risks that partake in any breeding's of this breed.
I often find myself telling potential buyers...."We don't breed ...Alligators, Never tiring Energizer Bunnies....or Stuffed Animals".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GrandmaD.....you have a wonderful post that presents much truth. 
Also, the country of origin included the GS doing bitework on a man in the Herding test.(HGH) Evidently, this was seen as part of what they were looking for. People often forget to mention this, in bringing up the herding aspect.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How often have you heard a breeder say,(after seeing a nice strong dog that they liked), I like your boy but I can't breed dogs like that because my customers can't handle them. Has anyone else heard a breeder say that before....and I am not talking about over the top drive dogs....just good strong working type dogs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Catering to and breeding for ignorant owners is something that never should be done. I've heard it all from people that don't know the real purpose or history of a GSD. They want "a bada** guard dog that will protect/scare people" or "a big huge dog that is fine sitting on the couch all day" or "a 150lb monster protection dog". Too many people want to put lapdog qualities into a GSD. Of course it is profitable. Much easier to have a bunch of untitled, lazy dogs and breed them for profit rather than titling or carefully analyzing pedigrees. Irresponsible owners and breeders contribute to this problem.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Why? That "gameness" makes them very good catch dogs. The pitbull is probably the most common hog hunting dog in the US. And feral hog populations are only getting worse...
> 
> Most people would argue that there is even less room in society for human aggressive dogs in society. Yet here we sit on a German Shepherd Dog forum, and the GSD if "well bred" should have appropriate human aggression.


There were only two things I feared when walking around my neighborhood, pit bulls and humans. 

At least if I had my dogs with me, I did not fear humans.

Pit bulls, well, they are why I don't walk my dogs locally anymore. I can't protect them or myself from a pit.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well I don't think their natural state or natural instincts or their genetics lean towards living the coddled life that some seem to think they were meant for.
> They are dogs. Working dogs. Born and bred to work outside in all kinds of weather. They are strong, loyal to their master, supposed to be brave and intelligent. Not a needy creature that needs to be coddled all day long.
> I think many are housebound, fearful creatures because there natural instincts are not allowed to come forth.
> Too many people want a 80 to 100lb. lap dog that they are afraid to let out of their sight. They like that the dog is glued to their ankle. I guess it keeps them both safe.
> ...


Too many control freaks out there that cannot abide a dog that may think or act for himself. Poor dogs... always in a house, behind a fence or with a leash on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> Too many control freaks out there that cannot abide a dog that may think or act for himself. Poor dogs... always in a house, behind a fence or with a leash on.


Poor dogs...thinking for themselves...in the road....chasing deer....dead...

I might be a control freak, but letting your dog run loose is not a good idea. DH's cousins beautiful GSD - dead. Left to run loose, chasing deer, never came home.

So, IMO, if your dog is outside by himself then he should be in a fenced area. If he is outside with you, then have the recall and boundaries trained so he can be off leash.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't know, after joining this forum I was really all about the "strong working dog." That the showlines aren't what a GSD is supposed to be and all that other stuff. But the more I'm involved in the world of GSDs the more I realize that for any breed to survive it has to be a pet first. 99% of people do not work their dogs like the people on this forum do, they don't even partake in AKC obedience/rally/agility. Dogs aren't tools anymore. They haven't been since right about the time the GSD was "created." But the GSD has been popularized by wars/police departments/movies, and people want the breed.

What scares me is when my club goes out and does obedience demonstrations for people. They see all these amazing dogs, some as young as one year old, being really good and think that the breed is born with it. So they get one and then realize what its going to take to raise a dog like the ones they see, but by then its too late.

This forum quickly turned me against "pet quality," but I realized there are people that want a GSD that will still get one and in order to insure they don't dump it they need one with a little less drive. I'm not saying breed couch potatoes, but something that can relax for most of the day and not need as much exercise as a "breed standard" one (although who knows what that is now).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

But there are "pet-quality" GSDs available _all over the place._ Look in your local classifieds on any given Sunday. Look at your local shelter or rescue. Just a cursory google search revealed several breeders in my area selling hip-certified, 120lb calm family companions, available in dark sable, black, and black/tan.  For people who want that kind of thing, they're flippin' everywhere. We don't need to "dumb down" the breed or standard to create something that's already coming out of rescuers' ears.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think part of what breeders do is educate people about the breed Terms get thrown around here a lot and I have long ago decided that I don't ever want a dog that can't be a pet and its unfortunate that on here the term gets used dispargingly if you think about it a lot goes into being a pet


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

holland said:


> I think part of what breeders do is educate people about the breed Terms get thrown around here a lot and I have long ago decided that I don't ever want a dog that can't be a pet and its unfortunate that on here the term gets used dispargingly if you think about it a lot goes into being a pet


When I use the phrase "pet-quality" or "just a pet" I'm mostly referring to dogs that are only capable of being a pet. Dogs that couldn't hack it in Schutzhund, lack the drive an energy for agility, no hunt drive for SAR. . . dogs that are pretty much _only_ good for lying on the couch and not biting the kids. 

To me the beautiful thing about a well-bred GSD is that it's a fabulous pet who can also do any sport or work the owner wants it to do. When I bought Kopper I told the breeder "this dog is going to be primarily a house pet, but I always do some sort of hobby with my dogs, and 3 years from now I don't know if it will be obedience, agility, Schutzhund, PSA, or nosework, so I need a dog who can do it all."

To me one of the negative thing that's happening in this breed, just as bad as show dogs who can't work, is working line dogs who can't be pets. Neither one is appropriate.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Poor dogs...thinking for themselves...in the road....chasing deer....dead...
> 
> I might be a control freak, but letting your dog run loose is not a good idea. DH's cousins beautiful GSD - dead. Left to run loose, chasing deer, never came home.
> 
> So, IMO, if your dog is outside by himself then he should be in a fenced area. If he is outside with you, then have the recall and boundaries trained so he can be off leash.


I never said to let a dog outside off leash unsupervised. That would be irresponsilbe and negligent. And, of course, the dog would have to have a bullet proof recall. My mistake for assuming that was understood.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> How often have you heard a breeder say,(after seeing a nice strong dog that they liked), I like your boy but I can't breed dogs like that because my customers can't handle them. Has anyone else heard a breeder say that before....and I am not talking about over the top drive dogs....just good strong working type dogs.


Isn't this a good example of how breeders control the fate of the breed rather than dog owners?? Just because the public wants something doesn't mean breeders have to produce it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> I never said to let a dog outside off leash unsupervised. That would be irresponsilbe and negligent. And, of course, the dog would have to have a bullet proof recall. My mistake for assuming that was understood.


With some of the posts I've seen on here, I don't think anything an be assumed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> How often have you heard a breeder say,(after seeing a nice strong dog that they liked), I like your boy but I can't breed dogs like that because my customers can't handle them. Has anyone else heard a breeder say that before....and I am not talking about over the top drive dogs....just good strong working type dogs.


Yes, a number of times.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Emoore said:


> "
> 
> To me one of the negative thing that's happening in this breed, just as bad as show dogs who can't work, is working line dogs who can't be pets. Neither one is appropriate.


This and dogs who are not allowed to be dogs because they are treated like children and dogs who are not allowed to be family members, because they are always kenneled except when working and must work for every bite of food.

I think breeding for extremes is ruining the breed and it is human nature to want extremes. Many people think moderate, jack of all trades is some how mediocre. And many breeders cater to the market.

A GSD should be a first a quality pet.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> How often have you heard a breeder say,(after seeing a nice strong dog that they liked), I like your boy but I can't breed dogs like that because my customers can't handle them. Has anyone else heard a breeder say that before....and I am not talking about over the top drive dogs....just good strong working type dogs.


I have. An ASL breeder friend of mine was saying at the house for a couple of days. We had Jag out for a while to play. (He was only a year old at the time.) She said that she wouldn't want to breed to him because he made her tired just watching him!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A GSD should be a first a quality pet.[/QUOTE said:


> It should, but what is your definition of a pet? Everyone has a different expectation of what a pet is. I purchased my GSD with the intention that he would be a house dog, obedient and well mannered. He has become my hobby, we train and trial, I never thought that would happen. But to my GF he's a pet, and he's not cuddly enough (young and just not his temperment). He'd be a nuisance if we didn't work with him as much as we do, and he's not even close to as drivey as some of the Schutzhund dogs I've seen.
> 
> So it is this balance/mediocraty that we are discussing and no one on the forum will ever agree with what the perfect dog is.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Personally, I think a well-bred dog means a range--but the "bottom" end would mean _capable, willing and able _to do everything a GSD is thought of doing (Sch, herding, SAR, Guide Dog, etc) but not necessarily _living_ to do them, and the "high" end would mean _living _to do the same, but _capable, willing and able_ to be an excellent family companion in the hands of any _good, decent_ handler/owner. 

Even high working dogs can be family companions if made to feel this is their job.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I did have a puppy buyer write me a letter, expressing their thoughts and opinions on "our" future breeding program and goals.....
This person bought a female puppy from us about 3 yrs ago. Nice female, not too "driven"...but had normal drives. Buyer lived on 10 acres, a pond, had chickens and a couple of goats....
Took puppy home at 10 weeks old. At 4 mos old.....called us....."Puppy chasing chickens."....*gave advice*. At 5mos old called us....."Puppy LOVES to swim in pond, retrieving objects THEY throw in....how to STOP it?!"....*gave advice*.
At 8mos old...called us....."Puppy chasing deer...how to stop it?".....*gave advice*.
Received a letter in the mail (dog would have been almost 2yrs old.)....saying that their dog was hit by a car, and died. He expressed his concern that "our breeding program" produced dogs with too much temperament and drives......that we should "re-think" our program, because our dogs were too much for the average companion home & pet life.
I almost choked.....this owner had 10 acres, a pond, free ranging chickens & goats.....and a *free ranging* puppy, that they NEVER put a leash on or corrected from any unwanted behavior.(no matter how much advice we gave)......YET....it is *our* fault for breeding a puppy with correct temperament and drives for the breed...? I felt so saddened by the response.....but it is proving to be what many owners actually want.....LESS DOG.
**Instead of breeders, dumbing down the breed....how about potential owners &* *enthusiasts, ....educating UP, for the breed...? *


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Robin, how sad. To me, that is the perfect example of a working dog being able to satisfy the drive for a job--living in such a setting. We live in a smaller (just under 2 acres) scenario, and this is partly why I have a GSD. I feel like I can provide physical and mental stimulation without having to compete in agility or Schutzhund, etc.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh Robin. I am so sorry.  Another reason I would never be a breeder.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am very much against catering to the public with the breed. German Shepherds are a unique breed with a wonderful history, and they should NOT be 'edited' to accommodate everyone. There are over a hundred different dog breeds... owners should educate themselves and choose the right one for them, and shame on anyone who thinks a breed of dog should be changed into a generic pet that everyone can handle.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> I did have a puppy buyer write me a letter, expressing their thoughts and opinions on "our" future breeding program and goals.....
> This person bought a female puppy from us about 3 yrs ago. Nice female, not too "driven"...but had normal drives. Buyer lived on 10 acres, a pond, had chickens and a couple of goats....
> Took puppy home at 10 weeks old. At 4 mos old.....called us....."Puppy chasing chickens."....*gave advice*. At 5mos old called us....."Puppy LOVES to swim in pond, retrieving objects THEY throw in....how to STOP it?!"....*gave advice*.
> At 8mos old...called us....."Puppy chasing deer...how to stop it?".....*gave advice*.
> ...


Sorry about your puppy! How sad!

But I do agree with you on people educating up. You see it over and over where people buy a GSD and are disappointed because they got what they paid for, a bred to the standard GSD. Problem is they did not really want a GSD.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

robinhuerta said:


> I did have a puppy buyer write me a letter, expressing their thoughts and opinions on "our" future breeding program and goals.....
> This person bought a female puppy from us about 3 yrs ago. Nice female, not too "driven"...but had normal drives. Buyer lived on 10 acres, a pond, had chickens and a couple of goats....
> Took puppy home at 10 weeks old. At 4 mos old.....called us....."Puppy chasing chickens."....*gave advice*. At 5mos old called us....."Puppy LOVES to swim in pond, retrieving objects THEY throw in....how to STOP it?!"....*gave advice*.
> At 8mos old...called us....."Puppy chasing deer...how to stop it?".....*gave advice*.
> ...


Oh heck, my lab would do all of that given the opportunity (she does get to do the water retrieving weekly) that is just _*normal dog behavior*_ and the aspects of it that one doesn't like must be prevented and/or trained away from.

That was just a bad owner for *any* dog and I am so sorry you lost one of your beautiful pups to them


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Why? That "gameness" makes them very good catch dogs. The pitbull is probably the most common hog hunting dog in the US. And feral hog populations are only getting worse...


Yes, but you can't have catch dogs attacking each other instead of the hog. There are other breeds used as catch dogs that are bred to work in a pack, and therefore must NOT be DA. The type of gameness needed to catch a hog is different from the gameness needed in dogfighting. 

I didn't mean to imply that Pit Bulls have no use. They are certainly multi-talented animals that can be trained to do many different things. It's just that one aspect of their temperament--DA--no longer has any place in society.



> Most people would argue that there is even less room in society for human aggressive dogs in society. Yet here we sit on a German Shepherd Dog forum, and the GSD if "well bred" should have appropriate human aggression.


Yes, but there is actually a use for HA... think police work, PP, guard work, military, etc. It's part of the GSD's makeup and must be controlled by a responsible and diligent handler. Those that do not want HA in their dogs should look into a different breed.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The GSD was originally developed as a herding dog. The breed's job changed because the need for herding dogs declined. Regardless of what they became after that point, that's what they were originally bred for.


Actually the GSD was created FROM herding dogs, but they were not created exclusively FOR herding. The GSD was supposed to be a versatile dog used for law enforcement, military, guide dogs for the blind, etc. Max wanted a WORKING dog, but not necessarily a HERDING dog. Some of the instincts and drives that make a good herding dog lend themselves well to other venues.



> Tina Barber did what many breeders don't have the guts to do. Rather than breed against the standard and try to convince people that it was okay, she walked away from the AKC and the breed. Dumbing down the GSD as you call it would be up for debate, but it's a moot point. The Shiloh Shepherd isn't a GSD, it only has certain similar traits. This woman didn't hurt the GSD breed on any level.


Exactly--that's what I'm saying; the Shiloh and other GSD offshoots were created to give the public a softer, calmer dog that LOOKS like a GSD, but doesn't have the same drive and energy level. I for one am glad that breeders have done that, rather than lobby to dumb down the GSD as a whole.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I also don't believe that the Shilohs are a "dumbed down" version of the GSD....
I think they are a breed separate of their own...with their own standards including temperament and characteristics.
There are many breeds created that "resemble" others in physical appearance.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

marshies said:


> On the realistic side though, if people keep returning dogs to breeders because they are too much for them, then breeders will change what they are breeding for or face a very restricted customer base.



Or they will learn to screen buyers more effectively. With my first litter of Beaucerons, I had a woman contact me about getting a pup. She was actually French and was familiar with the breed (at least more than the average person I spoke with at the time). Being a rare breed, we regularly were selling pups to people we never actually met in person. Anyway, she bought the pup and made the 9+ hour drive here to get the puppy. When we met them, my husband and I didn't really love them, but couldn't really find a real reason to dislike them. Anyway, I met them about 6 months later at a dog event. By then I could tell the now 8 month old pup was being raised horribly. At this event I also had the pleasure of meeting the couple's pre-teen daughter who was an absolute nightmare. Needless to say I got the dog back the following year. I did reevaluate my process, though, not the dogs I was breeding.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also dont want to see the breed I love 'dumbed" down. 

I do think there are people out there breeding for what Joe Public wants, because hey it's money! 

I also think alot of Joe Public get these dogs because of looks alone and 'status'. (I got me a big ole mean gsd mentality)

I am familiar with alot of really great breeders and would hate to see them stop producing the type of dog I love because of the "market". 

I don't want a couch potatoe, I don't want a whacko, I want a nicely versatile balanced dog that I can choose to do whatever it is I want to do , thankfully the majority of german shepherds I've had and have, are just that.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> I also don't believe that the Shilohs are a "dumbed down" version of the GSD....


Really? I admit I haven't read the Shiloh standard, but everything I've heard (and the little I've seen) about them leads me to believe they are bigger, softer, lazier dog that is meant to resemble a large GSD. Aren't they a mix of GSD and a couple other breeds?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Yes Freestep....the original Shilohs were bred from GSDs....
But the breed originator did wish to create a "version" of the GSD....she wanted to breed an entirely different breed that "resembled" a GSD somewhat in looks, but had a different temperament & different characteristics.
So actually...they are not "dumb downed" versions of the GSD breed......they are a breed of itself.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also dont want to see the breed I love 'dumbed" down.
> 
> I do think there are people out there breeding for what Joe Public wants, because hey it's money!
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Couldn't have said this any better! Totally agree.


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