# German Shepherd/North American Black Wolf



## racehorse (May 19, 2017)

I am looking at a male GSD that has an AKC father of imported champion bloodline and mother that has 1/4 North American Black Wolf. Her mother is AKC. He is 12 weeks old and has the looks of GSD only. His temperament is good. What do you think? Thanks in advance....


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If the mother is 1/4 wolf, she is not pure-bred, and thus cannot be AKC registered. 

Do you have the pedigree of the dam?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

North American Black Wolf?????

Do you mean a black phase wolf? Just an FYI - I was at a wolf sanctuary with black phase wolves and they all showed a high suspicion of even the handlers they see and interact with every day. One of the head people is trying to get Purdue to do a study on this for a genetic connection because they can have blacks and whites in the same litter and they see the same traits in the blacks where the whites do not have the suspicion.

So, given that, first you have no idea what the puppy will mature in to. Second, good luck getting insurance to cover any incidents. Third, is that even legal in your state? And last, are you sure this "breeder" isn't scamming you because, as Lucia stated above, the mother can not be AKC if she's part wolf?


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

OP says the GRANDMOTHER of the pups is AKC registered, not the mother.


----------



## racehorse (May 19, 2017)

That's correct. He has features of a typical Rin Tin Tin.


----------



## Kibs (Oct 25, 2017)

What do you mean when you say "his temperament is good" ?


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how fast can the black wolf run?

run faster !


----------



## Perrosygatos (Jun 27, 2017)

Hi! I'm total ignorant about wolfs or even German Shepherds, I'm a novice with my first dog but I'm curious to understand if you want a dog that looks like Rin Tin Tin why don't you search for a pure breed German Shepherds? I mean, I know people buy dogs for looks, I understand it, but if he looks like a GSD what good would add a black wolf in terms of behavior or trainability?


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Perrosygatos said:


> Hi! I'm total ignorant about wolfs or even German Shepherds, I'm a novice with my first dog but I'm curious to understand if you want a dog that looks like Rin Tin Tin why don't you search for a pure breed German Shepherds? I mean, I know people buy dogs for looks, I understand it, but if he looks like a GSD what good would add a black wolf in terms of behavior or trainability?


Wolf lines are for herding elk. :grin2:


----------



## Perrosygatos (Jun 27, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Wolf lines are for herding elk. :grin2:


Maybe he is cheaper to own because he is going to hunt his own food? :grin2:


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Wolf content is only a negative for pet owners. There are no positives.

The wolf rescue people I know have endless stories about enthusiastic pet owners of hybrids who crash and burn with dogs that make TERRIBLE pets. The wolf gene expression can create terrible behavior issues in a hybrid -- creating an animal that's almost untrainable (and potentially dangerous). That gene expression is unpredictable, so you have to be prepared for the worst possible expression of it -- a wolfy personality in the worst ways.

They're also uninsurable on most home owners policies.

Trust me -- I had the chance to rescue a friendly, very young 25% gray wolf/GSD hybrid at a local shelter. They called me first because I have that relationship. I know wolf rescue people who'd have talked me through it, I'm wolf obsessed enough to have been out in 10 below weather in Yellowstone wolf watching with park field biologists, and I visit good wolf sanctuaries every chance I get. My wolf-loving devil spirit kept whispering, "Get that dog!" My rational self said, "You know better. Help get it to the sanctuary people who know what to do with it." I listened to my better angel. When wolf hybrid ownership goes badly, it can go REALLY badly. 

Prey drive? Like nothing else you can own. 

Handler aggression? 100 pounds of it going for the throat/face if it gets mad. 

Strength? They're incredibly physical animals--way more so than domestic dogs--and they are physical with people who handle them. One rescuer I know broke her forearm _playing _with an adolescent. The last time I was around one, I had to use a big fence to brace myself to stay on my feet when one intentionally shoved me to let me know I was entering his space. The force of that shove was astonishing. It was friendly communication from him--checking in to let me know he was alpha--but it was _strong._

Trainability? Forget it. They don't train like domestic dogs. If you've ever seen how stubborn huskies can be in OB...Multiply that by an order of magnitude. Wolves are NOT biddable. You don't even negotiate with them. You ask for their acquiescence. They're clever and full of mischief in ways that are hard to live with.

Destructive? Escape artists? Sanctuaries usually have to put in $10,000 fencing systems, buried deep underground with unclimbable tops. They're terribly smart in figuring out latches and escape routes.

Security? Nope. All the good GSD sentry barking we love is totally absent from them. They'll watch the burglars come in and then take off running out the open door. One sanctuary I know had to get some domestic dogs on the property to sentry bark because the 30+ wolves are totally silent if intruders come in at night.

Just get a big, black GSD with a plush coat. You'll likely have a biddable, nice wolfy looking dog, without all the problems.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Put me down for, "No way in the Fiery Pit would I pick this pup."

Run faster. Yes, I agree. 

Whoever is putting dogs and wolves together ought to get their hands chopped off. Wolf hybrids are removing hundreds of years of trying to breed out characteristics that wild critters have that are not functional in domestic life. Why do that? It is crazy. They don't make good watch dogs. They don't make good family dogs. They are not easy to train. They are not good with other pets or small children. They are not good with friends, relatives, neighborhood kids. They will not be good with the neighbors livestock if you live in the country. They are not good for guarding your pot plants or meth lab. There is absolultely no positives to putting dogs and wolves together. 

Oh wait, you'll be able to say, "He is part wolf." I guess maybe that's kool.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I groomed a wolf dog once. Once. That tells you all you need to know.


----------



## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Have you met the hybrid mother? What is her temperament, can she greet you properly, does she seem to listen to the breeder? What reasons did the breeder give for breeding the pair? I know some breeders that breed wolves with GSDs in the hopes of finally producing dogs with GSD temperaments and wolf looks, is this pup a side product of such breeding program? But anyhow as a buyer, I think it is less risky for you to just get a purebred GSD.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I owned a low content Mal/Wolf. I got him because he ended up at a shelter and would have been destroyed. Instead they called me and we back doored him out.
Stunning dog. And actually fairly well behaved in the house. We picked him up 8 blocks from my house, still chained to his doghouse on afternoon. He got bored one night and went over a 6 foot fence without making a sound, I spent 7 hours looking for him.
He had an annoying habit of throwing a paw over my shoulder and putting his mouth on my head as an affectionate gesture. 
He did serve as a nice pillow when I lost my house keys at the bar and had to curl up in the yard until morning.
He was highly protective of me and not in the least bit biddable.
He did not heel, he did consent to not drag me on my face.
He also did not down, stay or come. Off leash was a definite no.
I gave him to an outfitter, he ran away and was gone for a week.
Not a pet, definitely not a city pet.
My neighbor had a high content Mal/Wolf. He was a beast. Sweet boy if you new him but no pet. He was a serious escape artist, but he liked my Dane so he always came to get her when he got out. Usually I could get him into my house by calling her in. I was good friends with his owner and spent a good deal of time with him. He was not a pet.


----------



## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Agreed on the not taking a wolf hybrid. It won't end up acting like a proper dog, and you'll end up quite disappointed. Even if it's 1/8th wolf.


That said, I do see merit in reintroducing wolf genes back into breeds where genetic diversity has become remarkably thin due to inbreeding. GSDs are one of those breeds. However, the first couple of generations of dogs produced out of adding just ONE wolf into the gene pool causes problems for those dogs and where they end up as adults. It might take as few as 2 or as many as 5 generations for that new genetic code to be properly incorporated into a dog such that it remains a dog and retains the qualities of a GSD.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Never .
Never this , "that said, I do see merit in reintroducing wolf genes back into breeds where genetic diversity has become remarkably thin due to inbreeding. GSDs are one of those breed"


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

OP here is an alternative if you're interested. Many good breeders breed long coat black shepherds ( a good breeder won't specifically breed a long coat but it does happen so you will just have to be patient perhaps or ask who might be likely). They look a good deal like a big black wolf! We have a white long coat shepherd and we get lots of comments from people who think he is part wolf. That way you get the lovely GSD temperament and a dog that resembles a wolf more than your typical Black and Tan GSD.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Don't do it. It is a crap shoot and the odds are GREATLY against you. If you ever hear of a person who has a wold hybrid with a lovely temperament, it means they were ripped off and sold a Malamute mix. 

Wold hybrids and Coyote hybrids are actually way more dangerous than their wild pure ancestors. I love wolves, if you want to do something wolf related, visit and donate to sanctuaries. If you really want something wolfy looking, do research on breeders and lines and get a well bred Malamute. You'll most likely get the cool parts of being wolf (looks, aloofness, hardiness) while still having something that was meant to be domesticated.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Wolves are complicated beings, and they are not meant to be pets in the typical household. I have always loved and admired wolves. To interact with a wolf would be one of the highlights of my life. But if you love something, then you do what is best for it. And that means leaving wolves in the wild or in a sanctuary with experts. If your wolf-dog were to bite someone or escape and kill someone's livestock or pets, it would just create more bad press.

Get a wolfy looking breed of dog. I have a black and red saddleback GSD who couldn't look anymore like a GSD, and people still ask me if he's a wolf.


----------



## racehorse (May 19, 2017)

Thanks to everyone for your input. The owner says it was an accidental breeding by a guard dog (black wolf mix). The parents and the puppy look more like GSD than most of AKC full blooded ones I have looked at. I have grown to not trust the AKC designation as I once did. These three have good posture, ears stand up nice and straight, right colors. They just look like they should. The owners keep them in house and its a very nice home. The parents and puppy act very loving. But the idea that he has part wolf in him caused me some serious reservation and the comments here only support those concerns. So I thank you...


----------



## Katanya (Nov 27, 2017)

Wolf dogs are dangerous. and they are confused. they have two natures, the dog side and the wolf side, both fight each other. Make no mistake the wolf side wins every time, they are not stable animals. Also, did you know rabies vaccinations dont always take effect in wolf hybrids? This itself is an excellent argument against wolf hybrids. They may seem sweet and loving while puppies but that's before they reach maturity. 

My mother once had a husky/wolf hybrid. You know how nice huskies are, this one would stick to the shadows after she turned two and slink around you and try and sneak up on you. she started showing serious wolf behavior. When I saw that dog take my daughter's hand in her teeth while i was holding her-she was a baby at the time- thats when i said no way didnt take her back. 

Don't trust a wolf hybrid. I would not get this dog, I would find a good purebred shepherd if i were you. Sable is wolf color, though if you're wanting a wolf color


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

On Craigslist you often find "accidental breedings" and people who adverting themselves as "not being a breeder", yet selling pups. I don't believe in accidental breedings, especially the one like this one. If the dog was bred to the neighbors' Basset Hound, then yes, that would sound more like a (stupid) accident.
I am glad you prevented yourself from a lot of problems and heartache. Wolf-dog puppies are sweet and gorgeous, that's why people fall for them.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good article:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/...mdesk&kwp_0=619200&kwp_4=2200738&kwp_1=919515


----------



## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> On Craigslist you often find "accidental breedings" and people who adverting themselves as "not being a breeder", yet selling pups. I don't believe in accidental breedings, especially the one like this one. If the dog was bred to the neighbors' Basset Hound, then yes, that would sound more like a (stupid) accident.
> I am glad you prevented yourself from a lot of problems and heartache. Wolf-dog puppies are sweet and gorgeous, that's why people fall for them.


I didn't believe in accident breedings before as well, and thought it was an excuse for backyard breeder to sell their puppies until I met an accident breeder of purebred GSDs when I was searching for pups, apparently why the accident happens is because the owner does not believe in spaying/neutering of dogs (thinks it is against nature) and is super super unorganized (her car smells like poop). She also feeds her GSDs a pure VEGETARIAN diet without added vitamins to save farm animals and thinks it is all her dogs will need. Her dogs and puppies were fed random veggies which depend on what she decides to eat everyday and I really don't think they look very healthy, especially the coat. So I guess pure ignorance could also result in accident litters.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You are right; it IS 'ignorance', but not an 'accident'. If you have a an intact female than every unplanned breeding is careless, ignorant or something similar. I can't actually think of accidental breedings. Maybe some one else can.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wolfy, some dogs are escape artists! The mother of one of my females let herself out of her kennel and climbed an 8 foot fence to get in with the stud! The breeder, who was VERY experienced, said she had to be related to Harry Houdini!

Most breeders who have been in the game for any length of time usually wind up with at least one 'oops' litter, but it happens much less frequently than with your average joe, who doesn't seem to realize a female can come in season as early as 7 months, and produce a litter of puppies. That's why so many vets push for early spay/neuter, because the public is just sooo ignorant when it comes to canine reproduction!


----------



## Falconry (Dec 4, 2017)

I think it was wise to not grab the pup. With all the information here you have about 100 reasons to not trust the breeder. If they made a mistake as big as accidentally letting their dog get with a part wolf, who knows what other things they messed up. What if they screwed up on the health testing? I would never advise get a wolfdog from a breeder (only rescue and only if you know all about them and have the tools to handle them). If you're still looking for a pup I'm sure there's people here who can help you find a breeder who meets your needs and whose sires don't accidentally make wolf pups.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't believe in oopses either. If you have an intact female, it is your responsibility to manage that aspect. 

More than half of my kennels have lids -- fencing along the top. The only bitch that is in a kennel that does not have concrete at least around the edges/fencing is spayed. No oopses. 

Carelessness and ignorance does not equal an accident. An accident/oops would be like a tree fell on the kennel where the bitch was, and another tree fell on the kennel where the dog was, releasing both dog and bitch, while you were at work trying to make money to pay for dog food. That would be an oops. 

What is NOT an oops (two purebred dogs of the same breed):

My son let the dogs out together.
We were moving and I turned around and they were tied. 
They tied through the chain-link fencing (baloney). 

And so many more.

In fact, if someone admits that they really wanted puppies out of their bitch, but didn't realize this or that. Well, I have more respect for them. I would be more likely to get a puppy from him. Someone who claims the almighty oops, well, they aren't responsible enough to keep intact critters. 

I personally think most of the pure-bred litters that people claim are oopses, were orchestrated. They just don't want people bashing them and have learned that if they say "whoops" all is ok. The problem is that when people want puppies, but pretend they just couldn't manage their intact dogs, it adds fuel to the argument that all dogs should be altered. And legislatures have made laws to this effect in places. So giving people a free pass when they claim accidental breeding, is actually cutting our own throats. And that is not just for breeders. It is for people who feel it is healthier to keep an animal intact. 

Ah well, everyone knows what I think on the subject. Been keeping intact critters for over 20 years, and never had a pregnancy that wasn't planned. No morning-after shots. No spay-abort. It isn't rocket science.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Oops litters happen when the well meaning but dumb AC dude shows up at your house and see's a male running around in the fenced yard and 3 females in a kennel so he puts the male in the kennel with them.
Oops.
I kept an intact male and an intact female in my house for 6 years, no puppies. I don't believe it happens as often as people say, I can see situations were it could but not often enough to keep Kijiji/Craigslist full.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> You are right; it IS 'ignorance', but not an 'accident'. If you have a an intact female than every unplanned breeding is careless, ignorant or something similar. I can't actually think of accidental breedings. Maybe some one else can.


There are some accidental litters but those are the far minority. Definitely agree with you in that a lot of unplanned litters are ignorance. Like people not realizing dogs don't care if they are related they'll still breed. So they have a son and mother or siblings, something like that and then get puppies.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Katanya said:


> Also, did you know rabies vaccinations dont always take effect in wolf hybrids? This itself is an excellent argument against wolf hybrids.


Did you know rabies vaccinations don't always take effect in domestic dogs? 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19751164

My understanding is that the issue with wolf dogs and vaccinations is less about efficacy and more about laws and politics. There hasn't been testing by vaccine manufactures on vaccinations done on wolves, therefore there is no USDA approval. All wolf dogs that are vaccinated are vaxxed off label so none of the laws surrounding vaccination compliance can be applied.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

In the State of Maine police officers are legally permitted to shoot and kill 
Wolf/dogs if they show any sign of anti social behavior.

Unless a dog is registered, I wonder how they can know for certain that a dog is part wolf?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> Katanya said:
> 
> 
> > Also, did you know rabies vaccinations dont always take effect in wolf hybrids? This itself is an excellent argument against wolf hybrids.
> ...


This was my understanding, too.


----------



## NewtoK9 (Jun 12, 2017)

Ok first, I'll offer my experience as someone who has owned a wolf dog. I had a wolf hybrid whose mother was pure grey wolf, Dad was a Husky/Malamute. The breeder "rescued" and rehabilitated wolves that could not return to the wild and one thing led to another and she realized there was a market for wolf hybrids. This was 25 odd years ago btw. 

My wolf dog had the classic long lean wolf body with malamute coloring. She was unlike any dog I have ever met, anywhere. She was incredibly intuitive. We never gave her any formal training but I was a 14 year old kid, so I spent all my free time with her. We walked, ran, biked and played multiple MILES per day back then. She slept on my bed. Before school we were outside together. After school I went straight home to play with her. During school she stayed and hung out with my mom and siblings. We didn't do a lick of training - I wasn't her leader, I was her pack mate. She knew when to have manners and when not to. She didn't jump on people, bite, bark nervously, etc. She never saw the inside of a kennel and she never chewed anything in our house up - she saved her chewing for the outdoors. She walked on a leash and off a leash with no issues. She howled to wolf music. She once read a bad situation and defended me (and a friend) from some homeless men that thought they would take advantage of a couple of innocent young girls walking alone (or so they thought) through the woods. I'll say this, there is no growl anywhere to put the fear of God into a grown man quite like a wolf's.

I have often been surprised to compare training my DDR GSD -who is wicked smart but stubborn as **** and needs serious leadership - to my wolf dog. My GSD needs and wants a leader. He's an incredibly intuitive dog, loyal, devoted, headstrong but loves training. My wolf dog was loyal to the death but never needed to be told what to do. I am not sure I even _could_ have told her what to do - that's the thing with wolves, they are not subservient to humans. They accept human company but in the absence of a wolf alpha they have an everyone-is-equal mentality. If I accepted a person into our house, she did too. I had 4 brothers and sisters, from ages 3 and up, and she was gentle and relaxed with all of them. She never bit anyone and got jumped on, rolled and dog-piled on a regular basis. We never worried about her "stability" ever. She was an extension of the family from Day 1. 

Everything I have described above is what makes people want wolf dogs. The "look" of having a wolf not withstanding.

Now let me explain some reality: Wolf-dogs are really are NOT dogs in the sense that people think of the loyal family companion. I don't think they are "confused" as some people have suggested, but they have very wild instincts and needs that are not usually provided for by the average dog owner. They cannot be ignored for a few hours while you take a break. They are not a dog that will be happy running around in the backyard. They are not a working dog that can be given a job to do. They do not run out of energy and are always looking to move. If you don't give them space to move, they will move anywhere they can - including on and off your couch, tables, counters, chairs, you etc. It's like living with a runner who is always trying to keep their heart rate up - they jog around the kitchen island just to get steps. They are an incredibly intelligent animal that needs a pack to be with 100% of the time. In the wild, they are completely devoted to their pack - from mating to rearing young to hunting. That means they have a huge drive toward protecting, defending and establishing their territory. They have an almost uncanny telepathic connection to their pack. So while it may be incredibly tempting to have a companion like that, if you can't give your dog the same kind of commitment (and most people can't) DON'T GET A WOLF DOG. 

If you do live in the backwoods somewhere and you're retired/unemployed or have a job that allows you to have a lot of outdoor activity or spend almost all of your time with your dog, you might be an ok candidate. 

Even if you are the perfect candidate, here's the other things you'll need to consider:

- Legality. Many states do not allow wolf-hybrids. If you have an illegal wolf dog you take a risk every time you go outside because someone could see it and call it in to animal control. And trust me, people will. We had several visits from animal control and we lived where wolf hybrids were legal. Additionally, you are not likely to find a vet who will work on your dog unless you have permitting in those states.

- Vets: Some vets will not work with wolf dogs period, even if they are legal. You'll want to make sure you have a vet with wolf-hybrid experience on board BEFORE you get your hybrid. This may mean you have to travel some distance for vet care.

- Vaccinations: Someone else mentioned this but it bears repeating - vaccinations aren't necessarily effective or as effective. A vet with previous hybrid experience would be best to consult with.

- Health Risk: wolf hybrids have statistically shown to have a higher chance of genetic defects. Because the genetic composition in a single litter can vary so dramatically, it's impossible to predict whether your dog will have greater chance of defects or not. You simply take this risk when you get a wolf hybrid. We're not talking just DM or HD here, we're talking serious and lethal genetic anomalies, like hemophila, cancer etc.

- People, x 1: People are often not complimentary of wolf-dogs. In fact, many, many people are strongly against them and the reputation of wolf dogs is generally negative. If you live near any kind of urban area and your dog looks even remotely part wolf, expect to be heckled. People have very strong opinions on this issue and are not shy about voicing them, especially if they are dog owners themselves. Most dog owners who want their best friend to go everywhere and do everything with them and doing this in an urban setting is often very difficult with a wolf dog. If your dog doesn't look much like a wolf then you could tell strangers he is "just a GSD mix" and likely avoid headaches. In fact, even if he looks like a wolf it's probably a good idea not to confirm that for people. People who hate wolf hybrids may be less apt to make trouble if they think there's a chance your dog is just a mutt rather than what they really think he is.

- People, x 2: Some people have it out for wolves no matter what you say or do. That means they will not be above coming onto your property and killing your dog. If you live in an urban area, this is always a potential risk factor. 

- People, x 3: Are you single or do you live with other people? Is there a potential other people could live with you in the future, such as a wife/husband or babies/children? What is your plan to introduce new "pack mates" to your dog, especially considering territorial issues?

- Puppy to Adult: all dogs go through some maturation issues, both from a physical (mating/testosterone) standpoint and a mental one. Wolves can mature at a much slower rate than an average dog. You will need to be prepared for what a male wolf needs emotionally and physically at maturity. You also need to be prepared for regression issues or potential new issues (such as increased aggression etc) as your dog matures.

- Territorialism: research and understand how to address territorialism because this is one of the biggest complaints about wolf-hybrids - they can become very possessive as they mature and that leads to direct agression when they feel "their territory" is threatened. You will likely need to actively rotate bedding, sleep areas, play areas, toys, food bowls, etc to avoid creating a space they feel compelled to defend. You should start day 1 with feeding your dog directly and training impulse control so that he learns you are the source of his food and he does not develop territorialism over his food bowl with you. If you have others in your home, it's important to involve them in this as well, as that territorial behavior can ultimately be transferred to you and the dog may become aggressive with anyone who isn't you.

- Training: like vets, many trainers will not work with wolf dogs for liability or other reasons. It would be a good idea to make a list of local trainers who have wolf-hybrid experience BEFORE you get your dog. Again, you may need to travel some distance for these people depending on where you live.

- Contingencies: What happens if your wolf is too much to handle? Wolf-hybrids cannot generally be "re-homed." Even if YOU can't handle your dog, the dog will suffer serious mental issues if you try to re-home him because you will have effectively kicked him out of his pack and that doesn't generally happen to wild wolves unless they die. And anyway, who are you going to re-home him to? Many wolf dogs who are too much for their owners wind up in sanctuaries or at the pound. So you need to research local sanctuaries and have a backup plan in place BEFORE you get your dog. Even if the worst happens and you decide you can't keep your wolf dog, you have a responsibility to ensure that animal gets a chance to live a long life_ somewhere_.

Last but not least - Be Honest with yourself: WHY do you really want a wolf dog? Why would you put yourself (and the dog) through all of the potential bad things for the slim possibility that you will be able to have a stable and amazing companion? Why do you want the wolf over the GSD? If you can't honestly answer these questions with something more than "because wolves are unique or cool" or "the dog is already born, so someone has to take him," you really need to reconsider doing this. So before you force this animal, you and/or your family to get into a potentially difficult and heartbreaking situation, please, please, please, be honest with why you want to do this. If what you want is the dog then get the dog, and leave the wolf.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

About 30 years ago, a friend at work had a raccoon. It was huge. She could not take it to the vet because they don't/won't or can't work with raccoons. I wasn't sure about wolf-dogs.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I was a vet tech a while back, we had a lot of people bring wolf dogs in around here. For some reason the vets I worked with always turned the owners away ( I think because they had to get a special rabies vaccine elsewhere or required special paper work? ) and refused to see the wolf dogs. So in that regard i'm not even sure where you could take it to see a vet?


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I was a vet tech a while back, we had a lot of people bring wolf dogs in around here. For some reason the vets I worked with always turned the owners away ( I think because they had to get a special rabies vaccine elsewhere or required special paper work? ) and refused to see the wolf dogs. So in that regard i'm not even sure where you could take it to see a vet?


Under the law, rabies vaccine isn't considered effective for wolf-dogs. Therefore, even if vaccinated, laws require that the animal be treated as an unvaccinated wild animal, which means no quarantine. The animal is to be immediately euthanized and the head submitted for testing. That is why most vets don't want to work with them. They don't want to potentially be in a law suit because they vaccinated a wolf-dog and now the owner says "I didn't know it wasn't legal" and try to sue them for the animal being put down. And then potential lawsuits from the person who was bitten as well.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder why they have not studied wolf/rabies vaccines. We have enough of them in captivity. You would think that zoos would want to protect their wolf populations, and the handlers that work with them.


----------



## btfloyd (Oct 11, 2017)

It never ceases to amaze me how many people "want" a wolf-dog hybrid, but have no clue how bad an idea it would be in practice. The fever is so rampant in my neck o' the woods that people actually lie about having wolf blood in their dogs to have "bragging status" or to jack up the asking price of a pup from most likely an accidental litter. And people fork over money for them having no idea that they're not wolf hybrids at all. But they sure act like they are! 

Someone once said you'll never go broke betting on the idiocy of the general public. I don't recall who it was, but I see their point more and more every day.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

racehorse said:


> I am looking at a male GSD that has an AKC father of imported champion bloodline and mother that has 1/4 North American Black Wolf. Her mother is AKC. He is 12 weeks old and has the looks of GSD only. His temperament is good. What do you think? Thanks in advance....


 There's no such thing as a "North American Black Wolf". Some wolves go through a "black phase" but what is being advertised is kind of gimmicky IMO.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

racehorse said:


> I am looking at a male GSD that has an AKC father of imported champion bloodline and mother that has 1/4 North American Black Wolf. Her mother is AKC. He is 12 weeks old and has the looks of GSD only. His temperament is good. What do you think? Thanks in advance....


 If you want a wolfy looking dog, but a dog temperament, check out Northern Inuits or British Timber Dogs. They're a kind of "designer dog" made by crossing GSDs with malamutes, huskies and some other dogs. Wolf content, if present (as determined by Embark testing) is generally low, in the 5-12% range. Check with your state's regulations on wolf hybrids to avoid heartache and aggravation.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Findlay said:


> In the State of Maine police officers are legally permitted to shoot and kill
> Wolf/dogs if they show any sign of anti social behavior.
> 
> Unless a dog is registered, I wonder how they can know for certain that a dog is part wolf?


I don't think they can, not by visual examination. 

I had to look up regulations in NY state regarding wolf hybrids because a dog I am/was thinking of getting is bred to look wolfy, which could be problematic in a state where hybrids are illegal.

The NYSDEC (Dept of Environmental Conservation) says (and I paraphrase) no one shall own, sell, import, etc any animal which is a hybrid or has the appearance of a wolf or coyote. I'm thinking as I read this "but some dogs have wolf or coyote content and no one knows. How does anyone make the determination? This law was written when DNA testing was horribly expensive! It seemed like a law written with endless possibilities for abuse.

THEN, to muddy the waters, it's NOT the NYSDEC who has jurisdiction over PETS. That belongs to the NYS Dept of Agriculture. So I wondered who to call. I called the NYSDA and explained my confusion. They said to call the NYSDEC. I called the NYSDEC and explained my confusion. They said to me, "If it's a dog, get a dog license."

And what I would do is ask a breeder for something like a cert that says "DOG", or Embark test results that show it's a DOG, and never ever never use the word "wolf", even if there's a tiny smidge of wolf somewhere way back in the line somewhere. I guarantee that someone will make life hard for that dog and you if you do.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I don't think they can, not by visual examination.
> 
> I had to look up regulations in NY state regarding wolf hybrids because a dog I am/was thinking of getting is bred to look wolfy, which could be problematic in a state where hybrids are illegal.
> 
> ...


Hi [email protected]
I could not find the article that I read, I'm sure it was in the Bethel Citizen.
And it was probably around the same time this 2012 article was published 

in the Central Maine Journal.

You can access it:

Aug. 11, 2012. written by

By Matt Hongoltz-Hetling Staff Writer 

this was the heading:

*In May 2011, wolf hybrids in the state of Maine became the subject of a planned extinction, when a new law required all the animals to be registered, micro-chipped and neutered to prevent reproduction.*

"The consequence of a hybrid biting someone is serious.
If it bites somebody, and you say it’s a wolf hybrid, it will be put down immediately, its head will be cut off, and it will be sent to Augusta to be tested for rabies,” Doughty said."


You might be interested in the article.

I think it reflects how serious a problem the State of Maine and other states, consider the Wolf Hybrids to be.


I live in the inner-city.
I don't know much about wolf/dogs, only what I've read here and a couple of articles I've read in Maine papers.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> There's no such thing as a "North American Black Wolf". Some wolves go through a "black phase" but what is being advertised is kind of gimmicky IMO.


The whole act of breeding wolf hybrids is kind of gimmicky if you ask me.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> The whole act of breeding wolf hybrids is kind of gimmicky if you ask me.


 It is. And definitely not a good idea for making pets. There are a lot of dogs who look wolfy enough and can be hard to handle!


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Seems like Maine could open itself up to lawsuits if a wolfy looking dog is killed. I understand that Maine needs to protect people but it could do so in a more sensitive way. People's irresponsibility sure can cause a lot of un-necessary pain.


----------



## Crunch Hardtack (Dec 22, 2016)

As a landscaper/gardener, a customer of mine had three dogs: full blooded wolf; 1/2 blooded wolf with GSD, and a huge male Rottweiler. I was literally fill my pants afraid of the Rottweiler. Had the high ground perched atop his doghouse that sat on an upper level to where I would work below. His eyes followed me constantly. Every time I looked up, there were those two brown eyes peering from its massive head. He never was aggressive; didn't need to be!

The full blooded wolf, I never saw once and I worked for this gentleman for almost two years. Always stayed in the den it excavated into the slope at the back of the property. I felt so sorry for the mix, as one could sense the internal conflict raging inside its head. The dog part ever so much wanted to make contact with me, but the wolf half wouldn't allow it. It would approach to about eight feet, and skitter off 20-25 feet. Over and over this played out between the two of us. Poor thing was torn in two by two sets of opposing gene pools.

One good thing for me about having the pure and hybrid wolves there was the tremendous damage they did to the landscape. I had carte blanche to time and material to constantly fix what those two destroyed. The guy had the money and he gladly paid on time without hesitation. If you do decide to get a hybrid, get yourself a trusty gardener.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

carmspack said:


> Never .
> Never this , "that said, I do see merit in reintroducing wolf genes back into breeds where genetic diversity has become remarkably thin due to inbreeding. GSDs are one of those breed"


For health reasons primarily, not for temperament.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sabis mom said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> > There's no such thing as a "North American Black Wolf". Some wolves go through a "black phase" but what is being advertised is kind of gimmicky IMO.
> ...


I have a hard time believing there is such a thing as a reputable breeder of wolf hybrids. It's hard enough for breeders to find good homes for dogs.

what IS a good home for a wolf hybrid? I saw some at a tattoo shop, fat, miserable, laying in their fenced pen that was 7' tall...it was big I guess but not for a wolf! What kind of mental enrichment, exercise can you Do? it just seems like an animal that can hardly have it's needs met and suffers for the ego of the people who can say they own a "wolf"


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> For health reasons primarily, not for temperament.


How could this be done without negative effect to temperament?


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Seems like Maine could open itself up to lawsuits if a wolfy looking dog is killed. I understand that Maine needs to protect people but it could do so in a more sensitive way. People's irresponsibility sure can cause a lot of un-necessary pain.


 Maine does a good job of protecting people from animals. 

And on the flip side of that, the state does a good job of protecting animals from people. 


We have a camp in Maine and from what I’ve learned over the past 15 years, it is a state that takes the protection of their “wild-Life” very serious. 

If a wild animal or bird is injured people are asked to call and report on the location so the authorities can safely remove and transport it to a vet for care. When that animal is well it is returned to its natural habitat.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Nigel said:


> How could this be done without negative effect to temperament?


CarefullY? 

A few years ago the FCI announced that in an effort to improve the health of the Saarlooswolfdog they were going to allow one to be outcrossed with a White Swiss Shepherd. The Saarlooswolfdog was originally a cross between a GSD and wolf so the fact that they used a WSS instead of a GSD had to have something to do with the temperaments of the WSS and SWD being more similar than using a GSD. Never did hear how that all worked out but thought it was interesting.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> CarefullY?
> 
> A few years ago the FCI announced that in an effort to improve the health of the Saarlooswolfdog they were going to allow one to be outcrossed with a White Swiss Shepherd. The Saarlooswolfdog was originally a cross between a GSD and wolf so the fact that they used a WSS instead of a GSD had to have something to do with the temperaments of the WSS and SWD being more similar than using a GSD. Never did hear how that all worked out but thought it was interesting.


Hopefully it works out for them, however outcrossing to another breed of dog vs using a wolf is miles apart. Outcrossing to characteristically similar breeds like mals/Dutchies makes more sense to me. It's already being done with knpv dogs.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nigel said:


> How could this be done without negative effect to temperament?


By using wolf male ONCE to female with very strong genetics of at least three generations of bombproof nerve and moderate drives, culling the litter in terms of breeding and take soundest male/female nervewise and going back to strong nerved German Shepherd. Actually, this has been done in Belgium and Holland with Mals in times past. ( And I’m not talking about MalX, I’m talking one time use of Mal and maintaining GS registration. 
I got a puppy from a prominent Belgium sire and German dam about 20 years ago, and by the time the pup was 8 months he looked a lot like a Mal, even though pics of his sisters and brothers did not reflect the Mal in the sire. In knowing the sires pedigree, it was widely reputed that in third generation a Mal was used to increase prey drive. 
I wouldn’t advise one to use a wolf this way, I agree the Mal is a better choice, but hypothetically that’s how I would do it.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> By using wolf male ONCE to female with very strong genetics of at least three generations of bombproof nerve and moderate drives, culling the litter in terms of breeding and take soundest male/female nervewise and going back to strong nerved German Shepherd. Actually, this has been done in Belgium and Holland with Mals in times past. ( And I’m not talking about MalX, I’m talking one time use of Mal and maintaining GS registration.
> I got a puppy from a prominent Belgium sire and German dam about 20 years ago, and by the time the pup was 8 months he looked a lot like a Mal, even though pics of his sisters and brothers did not reflect the Mal in the sire. In knowing the sires pedigree, it was widely reputed that in third generation a Mal was used to increase prey drive.
> I wouldn’t advise one to use a wolf this way, I agree the Mal is a better choice, but hypothetically that’s how I would do it.


Would they repeat the same wolf breeding scenario using other strong nerved females to make a broader impact across the breed?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Don’t do it. Get a black gsd they look wolffish enough. I can’t see breeding a wolf who fears humans as a natural survival trait and breeding it with a gsd who has aggressive traits and has natural aloofness and suscpion of strangers but has strong bonds with their people produce anything predictable or stable. Breeding a wolf with any dog for that matter just because it’s possible is doing an injustice to the wolf. their behaviors are incredibly different with regards to humans. Wolves suffer enough tragedy all these attempt to breed dogs and wolfs is only damaging the wolf’s reputation.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nigel said:


> Would they repeat the same wolf breeding scenario using other strong nerved females to make a broader impact across the breed?


No, I wouldn’t....it would have to be a one time deal for strengthening hip/elbow health....but back to smart decisions within the breed.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> No, I wouldn’t....it would have to be a one time deal for strengthening hip/elbow health....but back to smart decisions within the breed.


So I'm going with hypothetical because this really isn't something you want to do. But if you were going to outcross to anything malinois, wolves whatever. I can see only doing it once but I mean once as in not one outcross but doing several outcrosses at once, limited time but not continued outcrossing. If you only outcross to one male you're going to end up with the exact same bottlenecking because there's simply not enough genetic diversity in one animal. Would it help, perhaps in a very small minority of a population, but perhaps not enough to make it worth it for the breed as a whole. Especially if a lot of people try to breed to this line of dogs to get the 'better health'. 

Ideally you'd think you'd want a handful of people who have permission basically to do outcrossing. They'd have strict standards and such and obviously the first few litters would be mutts not eligible to be registered. But after a couple generations of breeding back to GSDs the dogs would then be eligible. As in generation A,B,C,D can't be registered, generation E could if they fit the standard, certain requirements etc.

But there are enough GSDs out there I don't know that it's really needed or worth it. Just continued health testing and awareness that the genetic issues are out there.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Kazel said:


> So I'm going with hypothetical because this really isn't something you want to do. But if you were going to outcross to anything malinois, wolves whatever. I can see only doing it once but I mean once as in not one outcross but doing several outcrosses at once, limited time but not continued outcrossing. If you only outcross to one male you're going to end up with the exact same bottlenecking because there's simply not enough genetic diversity in one animal. Would it help, perhaps in a very small minority of a population, but perhaps not enough to make it worth it for the breed as a whole. Especially if a lot of people try to breed to this line of dogs to get the 'better health'.
> 
> Ideally you'd think you'd want a handful of people who have permission basically to do outcrossing. They'd have strict standards and such and obviously the first few litters would be mutts not eligible to be registered. But after a couple generations of breeding back to GSDs the dogs would then be eligible. As in generation A,B,C,D can't be registered, generation E could if they fit the standard, certain requirements etc.
> 
> But there are enough GSDs out there I don't know that it's really needed or worth it. Just continued health testing and awareness that the genetic issues are out there.


Breeders have slipped in Mal blood into breed in Belgium, back during the Fado Kathargo days, most don’t/didn’t realize it. The only effect to this point is that many Belgium dogs have more extreme prey than other places....go figure?*♀


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Kazel said:


> So I'm going with hypothetical because this really isn't something you want to do. But if you were going to outcross to anything malinois, wolves whatever. I can see only doing it once but I mean once as in not one outcross but doing several outcrosses at once, limited time but not continued outcrossing.* If you only outcross to one male you're going to end up with the exact same bottlenecking because there's simply not enough genetic diversity in one animal*. Would it help, perhaps in a very small minority of a population, but perhaps not enough to make it worth it for the breed as a whole. Especially if a lot of people try to breed to this line of dogs to get the 'better health'.
> 
> Ideally you'd think you'd want a handful of people who have permission basically to do outcrossing. They'd have strict standards and such and obviously the first few litters would be mutts not eligible to be registered. But after a couple generations of breeding back to GSDs the dogs would then be eligible. As in generation A,B,C,D can't be registered, generation E could if they fit the standard, certain requirements etc.
> 
> But there are enough GSDs out there I don't know that it's really needed or worth it. Just continued health testing and awareness that the genetic issues are out there.


Exactly, sounds like a bottleneck unless it's done a number of times.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

This is essentially breeding hybrids -- Generations A-D would be hybrids with all the problems that entails. What do you do with them? Breed them with a plan of killing most of the litter(s)? Breed them to dump on wolf rescues? Sell them to unsuspecting homes where they'll have all the problems they usually do, and probably end up euthanized or in rescue? None of that passes ethical muster, to my thinking. 

Also, there's a paper I saw a while back that captive-bred wolves develop the same orthopedic issues common in domestic dogs, in just a few generations. You're likely to lose any structural benefit almost as soon as you stabilize the genes in generation E.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Magwart said:


> This is essentially breeding hybrids -- Generations A-D would be hybrids with all the problems that entails. What do you do with them? Breed them with a plan of killing most of the litter? Breed them to dump on wolf rescues? Sell them to unsuspecting homes where they'll have all the problems they usually do, and probably end up euthanized or in rescue? None of that passes ethical muster, to my thinking.
> 
> Also, there's a paper I saw a while back that captive-bred wolves develop the same orthopedic issues common in domestic dogs, in just a few generations. You're likely to lose any structural benefit almost as soon as you stabilize the genes.


I wasn't saying just hybrids, I was talking about any sort of outcrossing. And I would also not recommend hybrids happening in real life. 

With the issues it's more about getting new genes so you have less of all of the same recessives floating around in the population that is no longer diverse enough. Of course farther down the line you may end up wanting to once again outcross. 

I was also saying people selected to breed the dogs. Obviously you'd want spay/neuter requirements on any not passing the muster and not getting bred in the program. And finding proper homes etc. for any offspring. This isn't something you'd do randomly one day. 

But realistically we'd be better of mainting proper health and testing of the dogs already in the breed. As we keep getting more research on health issues hopefully more can be done with them, especially in the prevention side. 

I don't know enough about wolf issues and such. For all I know more diseases would be added in to the breed by outcrossing instead of helping reduce the number there currently are.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Magwart said:


> This is essentially breeding hybrids -- Generations A-D would be hybrids with all the problems that entails. What do you do with them? Breed them with a plan of killing most of the litter(s)? Breed them to dump on wolf rescues? Sell them to unsuspecting homes where they'll have all the problems they usually do, and probably end up euthanized or in rescue? None of that passes ethical muster, to my thinking.
> 
> Also, there's a paper I saw a while back that captive-bred wolves develop the same orthopedic issues common in domestic dogs, in just a few generations. You're likely to lose any structural benefit almost as soon as you stabilize the genes in generation E.


And this is just one more reason why outcrossing to mals or other characteristically similar breeds makes the most sense. "If" a wolf was to be used I'm sure there would be heavy screening for selection otherwise what would be the point of potentially trading one problem for another.



Kazel said:


> I wasn't saying just hybrids, I was talking about any sort of outcrossing. And I would also not recommend hybrids happening in real life.
> 
> With the issues it's more about getting new genes so you have less of all of the same recessives floating around in the population that is no longer diverse enough. Of course farther down the line you may end up wanting to once again outcross.
> 
> ...


I don't know squat about breeding, just the same its not difficult to see the same dogs showing up repeatedly in pedigrees. Perhaps it's time to start looking for the hidden gems in the byb world :wink2: The topic of outcrossing doesn't come up in threads that often, but it is interesting.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Outcrossing is breeding a GSD to a GSD with no recent common ancestors. Not sure how many generations, but it is NOT breeding outside the breed. Anyone can outcross. There are no laws/rules governing outcrossing. I've outcrossed. One should have a plan to breed back in. You do this for a purpose, to capture a trait that you are lacking, and then you breed back into your lines, to regain type. I did not breed the dogs that came from the out-cross. They were not what I was wanting to produce, and I chose not to breed them back in, or at all. 

I know they bred outside the breed in dalmations to go after the deafness problem. And after so many generations they were able to register the dogs as dalmations, I think. I don't know that I would consider doing that with shepherds.


----------



## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

selzer said:


> I know they bred outside the breed in dalmations to go after the deafness problem. And after so many generations they were able to register the dogs as dalmations, I think. I don't know that I would consider doing that with shepherds.


I know with Dals, they added pointer in the 70's to combat the uric acid problem, and yes after several generations and arguments from the AKC they was allowed to be registered.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Kazel said:


> I wasn't saying just hybrids, I was talking about any sort of outcrossing. And I would also not recommend hybrids happening in real life.
> 
> With the issues it's more about getting new genes so you have less of all of the same recessives floating around in the population that is no longer diverse enough. Of course farther down the line you may end up wanting to once again outcross.
> 
> ...


The only way you are going to improve health and temperament in the breed is by doing away with lines. Breeding decisions made based on needs instead likes. We have been health testing and maintaining for decades now and the temperament and health issues are still increasing, that’s why uses for the breed in working areas is greatly reduced. 
BYB breeders breed with not clear purpose, and reputable breeders breed for personal purpose. The genes don’t care what your purpose is or how much you like what you like, when genetic diversity is lost, or breeding decisions are not well thought out based on compensation....then health and temperament will continue to decline, and breeders will continue to make excuses for the shortcomings.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> The only way you are going to improve health and temperament in the breed is by doing away with lines. Breeding decisions made based on needs instead likes. We have been health testing and maintaining for decades now and the temperament and health issues are still increasing, that’s why uses for the breed in working areas is greatly reduced.
> BYB breeders breed with not clear purpose, and reputable breeders breed for personal purpose. The genes don’t care what your purpose is or how much you like what you like, when genetic diversity is lost, or breeding decisions are not well thought out based on compensation....then health and temperament will continue to decline, and breeders will continue to make excuses for the shortcomings.


Maybe. But health and temperament issues are increasing in mongrels as well. I wonder what their excuse is. They certainly have genetic diversity. And, my parents' English Setter lived to be 15. He was of the Llewlyn line. There really isn't that many of them out there. It is not a rare breed, more in the middle of the pack of 1-200 AKC breeds. But I think it is safe to say, that the Llewelyn line is less diverse genetically, than ANY of the three main GSD lines in the US. The dog was relatively problem free, healthwise. Temperament? He was dumb as a box of rocks. He would hunt with my father, get birdy, and set, locking his eyes on the bird. I don't know if he would flush or retrieve. But he did love to run, and that was a problem in the breed. The dogs preferred to run rather than hunt. My dad said, he'd go out with him, the dog was nuts with excitement when he saw my dad come down with his boots and his gun, that meant the dog would go. Don't ask. But once out there he would run like a nut, until Dad cut himself a switch, and then the dog would hunt for 20 minutes or so, and then he would be so tired he would walk behind dad. 

To be fair, I've hunted with Dad, and he could walk an Olympian into the ground in a wood. And, Dad was no dog trainer. The dog might have been a lot better with someone with even a little bit of experience, and commitment to hunting with the dog. So the dog certainly had the instinctual traits of the breed. Temperament in my opinon is a toss up. The breed is docile and good with children, and certainly he was that. They say they are no watch dog, but he did foil a robbery attempt -- when my folks were out, someone broke basement windows on both sides of the house, and the back door, but they did not get in and rob the place, we think because the dog was barking his fool head off, and the burglar did not speak canine well enough to know that Pippy was saying, "come in, I want to lick your hand, I want you to scratch my butt!" 

So I don't know if it is a lack of genetic diversity. There are an awful lot of GSDs out there. One can outcross within the lines if they want to. The problem of course is whether there are dogs back there on an outcross with the same issue that we are trying to improve.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

selzer said:


> Maybe. But health and temperament issues are increasing in mongrels as well. I wonder what their excuse is. They certainly have genetic diversity. And, my parents' English Setter lived to be 15. He was of the Llewlyn line. There really isn't that many of them out there. It is not a rare breed, more in the middle of the pack of 1-200 AKC breeds. But I think it is safe to say, that the Llewelyn line is less diverse genetically, than ANY of the three main GSD lines in the US. The dog was relatively problem free, healthwise. Temperament? He was dumb as a box of rocks. He would hunt with my father, get birdy, and set, locking his eyes on the bird. I don't know if he would flush or retrieve. But he did love to run, and that was a problem in the breed. The dogs preferred to run rather than hunt. My dad said, he'd go out with him, the dog was nuts with excitement when he saw my dad come down with his boots and his gun, that meant the dog would go. Don't ask. But once out there he would run like a nut, until Dad cut himself a switch, and then the dog would hunt for 20 minutes or so, and then he would be so tired he would walk behind dad.
> 
> To be fair, I've hunted with Dad, and he could walk an Olympian into the ground in a wood. And, Dad was no dog trainer. The dog might have been a lot better with someone with even a little bit of experience, and commitment to hunting with the dog. So the dog certainly had the instinctual traits of the breed. Temperament in my opinon is a toss up. The breed is docile and good with children, and certainly he was that. They say they are no watch dog, but he did foil a robbery attempt -- when my folks were out, someone broke basement windows on both sides of the house, and the back door, but they did not get in and rob the place, we think because the dog was barking his fool head off, and the burglar did not speak canine well enough to know that Pippy was saying, "come in, I want to lick your hand, I want you to scratch my butt!"
> 
> So I don't know if it is a lack of genetic diversity. There are an awful lot of GSDs out there. One can outcross within the lines if they want to. The problem of course is whether there are dogs back there on an outcross with the same issue that we are trying to improve.


I understand your point, I’m just giving my take based on working and training with thousands of German Shepherds in over forty years.....doesn’t mean I’m right but it seems to be a consistently evolving trend. Anyway, I waiting for someone to give me an alternate reason for the increase in allergies, chronic breed issues and temperament changes in the breed. My best friend is a vet in a major city, and he always laments how many issues are with GS, if not allergies, then bloat, epi, skin, Hips, Elbows, mega, dm, and he says he he never knows what to expect in temperament.....I understand some of this is nuture and some is BYB....but he says people come in bragging about the pedigrees of their dogs and still so many issues.....?*♀


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> I understand your point, I’m just giving my take based on working and training with thousands of German Shepherds in over forty years.....doesn’t mean I’m right but it seems to be a consistently evolving trend. Anyway, I waiting for someone to give me an alternate reason for the increase in allergies, chronic breed issues and temperament changes in the breed. My best friend is a vet in a major city, and he always laments how many issues are with GS, if not allergies, then bloat, epi, skin, Hips, Elbows, mega, dm, and he says he he never knows what to expect in temperament.....I understand some of this is nuture and some is BYB....but he says people come in bragging about the pedigrees of their dogs and still so many issues.....?*♀


Yes, it almost seems like the better the pedigree, the more horrible the issues. 

I do think that 3-3 and 2-3 line breeding is playing with fire. Quinnie and Ramona are 3-3 on Vegas. Mufasa and Lassie was 3-3 on Pakros. Moofie bloated. I have not had bloat in my lines prior. I have seen EPI -- one of mine, and one of my pups out there. Out of about 110 dogs. Yes, I have seen HD. I produced 1 dog with epilepsy (ideopathic) -- I am still blaming the neuter on that, maybe they messed up the anesthesia, but there is no way to know. 

None of our dogs are perfect. Dogs are not going to live to be 80 and then die peacefully in their sleep. Not happening. But young dogs are dying way too soon. I think there are a lot of factors. 

We have a lot of cancer in humans. Way too much here in Ohio. If that is due to poor immune systems, stress, environmental toxins, toxic food, poor nutrition, heredity, I don't know. But it seems that are dogs are also affected by a varieties of cancer and it is growing. I think there are unhealthy lifestyles and unhealthy conditions that contribute to cancer. I think that some of us love our dogs to death, rushing up to the vet for well-dog visits, vaccinating, altering, applying pesticides that reside in their blood stream, and I think all of it contributes to their lower life-span. And of course heredity is a piece of the puzzle. And, yes, I know someone who cut off both of her breasts to avoid breast cancer. Her sister did not, and she is dead. They had a heritable gene. 

As for temperament, I don't have any answers, mostly just questions. Perhaps, it is not the dogs that have changed, so much as we that have changed. I mean, in the fifties ladies mostly stayed at home and raised children, washing dishes in high heels, and taking care of their man when they got home. Dinner was at home, every day, and included desert, that was baked, usually, prepared when the kids were in school. Kids walked to school, because Mom did not have a car. And the dog was a dog. The person who had the patience to bake pies or cakes from scratch for ordinary meals, was the one that was home all day with the dog. 

Maybe the dogs are the same, but our lifestyle is totally changed. I was born late in the sixties, so was raised in the seventies when women were working, many of them. Latch-key children, etc. And the Golden Arches. When I was ten and under, we had dinner as a family, every night, usually at 6pm. After we moved, I made dinner, but people ate when they could. We had people running to school nights, working days, running here, running there, and the dog was mostly chained in the garage or yard. People from my generation now have grandchildren. We never learned what it was to live on a farm with critters, and family, etc. We never learned what it was like to live in a family where Mom stayed home and made sure everything was calm for Dad when he got home from work. We never learned to patiently prepare deserts from scratch for every meal. We went through the drive through between work and school to get calories. 

The children my generation raised were even more ME-NOW! Temper tantrums if you can't get your burger in less than 2 minutes? Or mcnuggets. Whatever. This group of young adults seem to have money, but not a lot of time, and no patience. They get a puppy and love it to death. They want to do everything right. They want it to be sweet and nice and cute and cuddly. They try positive reinforcement training for 3 weeks, which for them is actually an accomplishment. And then, what, the dog isn't responding to it as they had hoped, and I think there is a lot lacking in how we view dogs, how we train them, how we lead, how we manage. 

What I am personally finding? I find dogs easier to train, easier to manage, rarely need corrections etc. Is it that the dogs' temperaments are improving so much, or is it that the dogs are the same, or similar, and I have grown from where I was. Maybe my expectations for puppies are not realistic. Maybe now I am not taking things personally. Maybe now my body language is pretty consistent and so I am sending clear messages to my dogs that they understand. 

I just don't know.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> selzer said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe. But health and temperament issues are increasing in mongrels as well. I wonder what their excuse is. They certainly have genetic diversity. And, my parents' English Setter lived to be 15. He was of the Llewlyn line. There really isn't that many of them out there. It is not a rare breed, more in the middle of the pack of 1-200 AKC breeds. But I think it is safe to say, that the Llewelyn line is less diverse genetically, than ANY of the three main GSD lines in the US. The dog was relatively problem free, healthwise. Temperament? He was dumb as a box of rocks. He would hunt with my father, get birdy, and set, locking his eyes on the bird. I don't know if he would flush or retrieve. But he did love to run, and that was a problem in the breed. The dogs preferred to run rather than hunt. My dad said, he'd go out with him, the dog was nuts with excitement when he saw my dad come down with his boots and his gun, that meant the dog would go. Don't ask. But once out there he would run like a nut, until Dad cut himself a switch, and then the dog would hunt for 20 minutes or so, and then he would be so tired he would walk behind dad.
> ...


I think it's possible that *some* health and temperament issues are lifestyle, environmental, food source related.

Some of this stuff is increasing in people too. Pharmaceuticals in the water supply, GMOs, who knows?


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

These were my same exact thoughts- not to dismiss other issues but there has been something going on with people regarding physical health, mental health, cognitive health. It’s seems many animals are caught in the same wave as people either directly or indirectly. So many kids have allergies, asthma ,diabetiis and that is just naming only a few. I’m not sure if it’s their immune system faulty causing or has been the cause of and extra sensitive to food, vaccines, chemicals in the water and air etc. changes in the environment , stress, increase population or what else may be going on. 80% of the kids on my block have asthma- moves here from other towns- and I’m just giving examples on my one block. Their parents don’t have asthma. I was born with/ asthma and my kids do not have asthma . It seems to be caused by weakened immune systems which may can and have all different kinds of issues.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think it's possible that *some* health and temperament issues are lifestyle, environmental, food source related.
> 
> Some of this stuff is increasing in people too. Pharmaceuticals in the water supply, GMOs, who knows?


Of course SOME health and temperament issues are lifestyle, food, and environmental....I don’t think that anyone thinks there is a singular problem to any of these issues. Hey, backmassing, lines, and breeding for likes may well have little effect on these issues, and it’s just a coincidence that with increase of lines/extensive backmassing that these things have increased?.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

And of course, the backmassing has nothing to do with dogs dropping dead before the age of 10... :rolleyes2:


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> And of course, the backmassing has nothing to do with dogs dropping dead before the age of 10...


Who said back massing was not an issue? No one. Why not comment on the other issues that plague health. (Stick figure -Doing cart wheels and flips)


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> Who said back massing was not an issue? No one. Why not comment on the other issues that plague health. (Stick figure -Doing cart wheels and flips)


I honestly think there ARE many aspects to the many health and temperament issues. 
I guess I try to categorize them into issues that are native or have always been chronic in the breed, and things that seem to have proliferated in past thirty years. Things like weak ears, missing testicles, hips, missing teeth, have always been part of the breed. Other things like cancer, which I am firmly convinced are much more prevalent than forty years ago, I think are part of environmental and dietary causation. Things such as epi, mega, bloat, allergies, extreme shyness, extreme drives, extreme reactiveness, spinal issues, dm, are multi faceted in causation, but in all honesty, I rarely or ever experienced when I was breeding, and breeders I recommend it doesn’t seem to be an issue. Now this can be luck, I realize, but I really believe genetic diversity and breeding compensation has been larger contributors to this than luck...but who really knows.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Could it be that cancers are increasing because dogs live longer? In the past they may have died before the cancer had a chance to develop. Just thinking....


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Who said back massing was not an issue? No one. Why not comment on the other issues that plague health. (Stick figure -Doing cart wheels and flips)
> ...


I do not doubt the large role genetic diversity plays. I suppose one would have to be superstitious to ignore such a pattern but yes who real knows.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> Could it be that cancers are increasing because dogs live longer? In the past they may have died before the cancer had a chance to develop. Just thinking....


No. Overall, the GSD lifespan USED to be 12-14 years. Now it is 10-12. That doesn't mean someone doesn't have an extremely feeble 15 year old GSD, but for every dog that makes it to 13, other dogs are dying at 9 or 8 or 7. Cancer may be increasing, I think it is. But it is true that in years past, many people just thought their old dog was getting on, and it was its time. No diagnosis. The dog my mother brought home when I was 14 had an aggressive form of stomach cancer at 18 months old -- she was a stray about 9 months old when we got her, a shepherd/hound mix. She lived to 14, thought the vet gave her 18 months. So, it was around back then. Maybe not caught as often.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Exactly, Selzer! When I first got into the breed, I heard the average lifespan of a GSD was 12 to 14 years. Now, as you say, dogs are dying much younger. I heard one person say they considered any years after 10 to be 'a gift'. I've lost track of how many well-known German showline dogs have suddenly dropped dead before 10 years of age. Then, I look at the tremendous amount of backmassing in the showline pedigrees. Star is only half German showline, but some dogs pop up as many as 14 times in a 7 generation pedigree.

I've been very lucky. Three of my GSDs so far have lived past age 10, with no signs of slowing down. Star just turned 11, and the only thing I notice is that her hearing isn't as sharp as it used to be. She's still as goofy as ever, and if I stop for too long on our walks, she runs around me in circles, and barks at me to get me moving again!

A recent genetic study looked into why giant breeds like danes and Irish wolfhounds have such short lifespans. The answer they came up with? Well, it's quite simple: TOO MUCH INBREEDING!! Or line-breeding, if you prefer to soft-pedal it the way the breeders do!

And yes, I understand how line breeding works, and no, I am not against it. But all things in moderation, please! I've seen far too many pedigrees that look like this one:

Benvillarosa All that Jazz

(The dog had to be euthanized because it suffered from horrific epileptic seizures.)

Due to all the different lines in the breed, the GSD is in better shape genetically than some breeds. Inbreeding coefficients for some dogs are extremely high: Sheltie inbreeding coefficients


----------



## Crunch Hardtack (Dec 22, 2016)

This was some years back, but I read Great Danes die at an early age because their hearts are small in comparison to their body size.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

The GSDCA has the 13 club, which honors and tracks dogs that are 13 or older.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Babs and Jenna will be 13 in August, if they make it. Jenna seems healthier, but you never know about these things. I can go home tonight and find her gone. You just don't know. Babs is fatter, and is losing some strength in her back end. I would put her on a diet, but Quinnie lets her eat her food, and Quinnie can't afford to diet. And, Babsy gets what Babsy wants. Most of the time. 

Heidi is failing. She is 11. I am sick about it. I know, I know. She is eating good and still able to walk, but it is day by day. 

Odie is heavy and doing great at 10. 

For me puppies are dogs under 2 years, 
young adults are 2-3 years, 
adults are 4-6 years, 
mature adults are 7-9 years, 
seniors are 10 and over. 

This summer I would not have believed it if you said Heidi would be the first to go.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've had one make it to 15, one to 14, and one that had to be euthanized at 9 due to spondylitis in her spine. I am sure Star will be around for several more years, and may well make it to 14, barring something unforseen like cancer or an accident. Unfortunately, she's my escape artist, so an accident could happen!


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

To what do you attribute your good luck with longevity, Sunsilver, with the ones making 14-15? Genetics (i.e., all your dogs came from lines known to be long-lived)? Lifestyle (e.g., food, fitness, stress, environment)? Both?


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Plain o'l luck, Magwart. I also keep my dogs on the lean side. There's nothing special I do about diet or supplements, other than feeding a high quality corn and wheat free kibble. Neither of the two that made it to 14 and 15 had a pedigree. Maybe I could credit hybrid vigour, but that's not a given with BYB dogs! 

The one that had to be PTS at 9 was on a starvation diet from a very young age. I remembered seeing her as a pup, and wanting to call the Humane Society! By the time the owner had to go into a nursing home, she was 5 years old, 26" tall and weighed only 35 lbs.! My aunt and uncle, who took over her care, said they had trouble getting her to eat. Maybe she was grieving her owner - don't know for sure. I do know I saved her live, and was at least able to give her a couple of good years. :crying: Her problems might have had something to do with the neglect.

My 11 year old is an outcross, but her mom had to be euthanized due to bone cancer at 8, and her grandfather (Dallas) died very suddenly at 9. Her German grandfather, Ursus, made it to 12, I think. Not sure about her dad, but I know he made it past 10.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I suppose luck is when all the right genetics traits in health get passed to them so not to get affected by internal and external forces. Teddy my shepherd mix passed away of natural causes at 8- heart attack.My first shepherd past at 12 we had to put him down due to arthritis. I know Max’s and Luna’s grand sire/grand dam presently range from 10- 12 and in good health. So all good things it’s at least a head start.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have many dogs that live to 14 , 15 -- and owned one that lived to 16 .
Ruth Yeulett had one of my breeding that lived to 17 - she still ran after the all terrain and did farm chores.

Some of these long lived dogs , worked full lives PAST mandatory retirement , because they needed to attention outside of required rabis shots and the one time here or there stitch up from some difficult apprehension. They retired at 12 and lived in their handlers' family home to 14 plus . 

Dogs from a family line - so a conserved and common developed genetic base --- living in variable environments . 

As to using wolf genes --- know a small private zoo owner -- have sat down with wolf and lion cubs --- and have been in the inner sanctum where food prep is done -- 

after years of human managed environments many of the wolves fall victim to the same problems that are common to our dogs - 

read Pottenger's Cats 

so in the end there is no health gain -- and more than likely picking up negative attributes which hamper the usefulness and satisfaction that we derive from the D O G


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

One of my agility friends said Susan Garrett just came out with the formula to let your dog live to a ripe old age...some of it is no brainers:

-one on one time
-training and working the brain
-daily exercise
-healthy food
- not overweight

It made me happy because my girl should make it forever since she has them all! At 11 today she hiked up the mountain with us and terrorized her brother and played battle with my husband. 

She still has about as much zest for life as she has ever had, though she has slowed down some. My vet has remarked that she ought to make 15, no problem. I try not to take anything for granted with her because at 11, anything could happen. 

She lights up when I take her to train and is still enjoying learning new things.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I wish I could remember the registered names of Buds maternal grandparents. That whole line was long lived, 14,15,16 regularly but I only know the sire line.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It sounds like a good formula. keeping the mind sharp , keep moving and a healthy weight is I suppose the recipe for good health for all living things. Happiness rules to. I hoping and would expect max and Luna to live a long time as their grandparent are still alive and in good health. Max is grand dam last I heard was a is a very young 12. The oldest dog I ever had was 18 american eskimos no health issues either. The only dog I owned who had major health issues was our King Charles with a heart murmur and I had many different breeds of dogs.


----------

