# compare scenarios and opinion of what the outcome should be.



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Does anyone else seem to think that we as a forum tend to give some pretty inconsistent advice? But the same people are not always commenting on each thread. 
I think it would be interesting for people to consider each of these scenarios and give an opinion on what they think is needed in each case and why. It only works if you state your opinion for all four scenarios, lets not go off on tangents about one of them. 


Four threads on dog bite scenarios: 

1. 14 month old puppy, Service dog in training bites nine year old neighbor girl in the face will require plastic surgery, dog has nipped the child's brother in the past. Dog is generally walked with a muzzle on.

2. 12 month old puppy has bitten/attacked mother and 14 year old child many times (family members). 

3. On trying to leave the yard, the 11 month old puppy jumps up and gives a minor bite -- 1 puncture and marks, in the upper arm of a ten year old child (I think ten years). 

4. 9 year old rescue dog in home for 2 months and instead of saying good night, snaps/connects with the owner's face producing a minor bite wound -- 2 marks, one puncture and bruising.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

One thing you have to think about though is not everyone reads every single thread.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I would personally feel uncomfortable assessing ANY of these (even hypothetically) without knowing what has been done so far to control/fix this and its effect. 

ie; has the service dog been worked with and does he STILL require a muzzle?

That type of thing.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Can you post the links to all of the threads?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

1,2,3,4-

listen to comments on web board and get help finding a professional who can see the dog in its own environment evaluate the situation and help with resoution.

To me the boards should give insight but all these folks need help by someone who can look at the entire situation through objective eyes.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

jaggirl47 said:


> One thing you have to think about though is not everyone reads every single thread.


 
:thumbup:

That's talking about me......


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> 1,2,3,4-
> 
> listen to comments on web board and get help finding a professional who can see the dog in its own environment evaluate the situation and help with resoution.
> 
> To me the boards should give insight but all these folks need help by someone who can look at the entire situation through objective eyes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

1. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/current-dog-affairs/157205-cancer-patients-dog.html

2. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/157553-attacking.html

3. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/157513-help-our-gsd-bit-child.html

4. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/158041-urgent-question-dog-bit-my-wife.html

Here are the threads.

I did write in my second sentence that not everyone is commenting in every thread.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thank you!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I often just enjoy a good debate, whether I believe in the side I'm taking, or not. I'm aware that my opinion counts for nothing, no one knows who I am and all of the facts could never possibly be presented on an Internet forum... but no one I know in real life will argue with me for 9 days about a golden retriever nipping a bite sleeve


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Does anyone else seem to think that we as a forum tend to give some pretty inconsistent advice? But the same people are not always commenting on each thread.
> I think it would be interesting for people to consider each of these scenarios and give an opinion on what they think is needed in each case and why.


Is it inconsistent advice or is each scenario just different enough to change the advice given? Sometimes how a problem can be handled is more about the owner than the dog.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

As far as the cancer patient's dog, alot of stuff in that story just do not add up. The dog was leashed and the 6 year old was supposedly 8 feet away? I think the kid was much closer than that. Plus, at 14 months, that dog may have been going for the face but not to actually attack. I do agree with you on scars. My oldest son was nicked in the face by a Saint Bernard when he was 5. Completely accidental. It was his babysitter's house. I went to the house, looked at his eye, covered him up with 4x4's and tape, then took him to the ER. They cleaned him, closed him up, and started antibiotic. I requested no report be filed because it was an accident. His cut at the time was about 6 inches. Now, 4 years later, it is barely noticable. I took him home after and he went and played with Zappa. I never freaked out and he understood it was an accident. He has no fear or residual affects of what happened to him.

The attacking one, I don't know. Everyone was pretty much on board with the same ideas. Get a behaviorist for the dog.

The 3rd link, yes. Completely different answers. Everyone right away said get rid of the dog. I know when Zappa was younger and my oldest started walking, he would actually take my son's arm and lead him around the house. It had nothing to do with aggression.

The 4th link, well I have replied several times to that one.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I haven't read most of those threads...but I may have commented on one???
I have a hard time reading those types of threads, because my "personal opinion" can and does offend some people...so I choose to not give an opinion.
I *can* say ..that.....I cannot accept or tolerate "aggression" from any dog that is *unprovoked*......even more from a dog that I have raised from a small puppy.
Unstable nerves and temperament is a growing epidemic and element in this breed, and until we are strong & hard enough as breeders and owners to acknowledge it, and "cull" the individuals from the breeding pool.....it will continue to be a problem, and we will read more threads about it. *And we will continue to find "reasons and "excuses" for the behaviour, while trying to live with & offer suggestions on how to "fix" the problem.

*See...I told you, most people would not like my opinion....and it's not meant to offend.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> *See...I told you, most people would not like my opinion....and it's not meant to offend.


I don't disagree with you and I'm not offended (and I'm even in rescue!) . 

But does a seemingly unprovoked act of aggression have to mean a death sentence? Don't we owe it to our dogs (especially those raised from puppies) to attempt to find a reason first. If the aggression is not due to medicial issues and/or the dog can't be rehabilitated then we do the extreme and put them to sleep?

I do agree that any dog that displays inappropriate aggression should not be bred but what about our speutered friends? Should they be killed if they can be rehabilitated and/or managed and it's 100% guaranteed that they will not pass on weak nerves?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Again, the internet, no one has been specifically involved in any of these topics except the posters themselves.

It's very hard to say what one should, shouldn't do, or what we would do given that situation.

Personally, I'm with Robin for the most part,,especially if I raised a dog from a puppy and it got down right aggressive with ME, it's owner, it would be gone, and not in as rehoming..

Some dog just aren't wired right, the one thread with the dogwho didn't like the 14 yr old in the house,,and was only 11 months old? That dog would be gone unless I found out he had some medical issue that was treatable.


To answer Jamie, I do think it means a death sentence IF the dog attacks it's owner unprovoked..If someone wants to excuse that and manage it themselves, well that's fine, it's their dog, but for me,,that dog would be outta here.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> To answer Jamie, I do think it means a death sentence IF the dog *attacks* it's owner unprovoked..If someone wants to excuse that and manage it themselves, well that's fine, it's their dog, but for me,,that dog would be outta here.


I'm not sure I made myself clear since there are so many different situations that we could include in "attack". I'm not thinking of extreme going after the owner but a bite that isn't significant (which again is different to everyone).

There have been some situations I've across where my first thought was the dog needs to be put down (both on here and real like) because they are dangerous and there's others where it's possible that the dog can be fixed by doing x, y, z. I just don't think it's as simple as every dog that has shown seemingly unprovoked aggression should be put down without exploring the why first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

robinhuerta said:


> I haven't read most of those threads...but I may have commented on one???
> I have a hard time reading those types of threads, because my "personal opinion" can and does offend some people...so I choose to not give an opinion.
> I *can* say ..that.....I cannot accept or tolerate "aggression" from any dog that is *unprovoked*......even more from a dog that I have raised from a small puppy.
> Unstable nerves and temperament is a growing epidemic and element in this breed, and until we are strong & hard enough as breeders and owners to acknowledge it, and "cull" the individuals from the breeding pool.....it will continue to be a problem, and we will read more threads about it. *And we will continue to find "reasons and "excuses" for the behaviour, while trying to live with & offer suggestions on how to "fix" the problem.
> ...


I agree that we need to not breed bad temperament. But I do not know that we need to kill every dog that does have a problem. 

I get the feeling that a dog that is biting out of having someone in his space is more acceptable than a dog who bites due to poor nerves or poor character. 

I do not know when it became ok for dogs to bite people if they are bending over them, looking in their eyes (I know that can be a challenge), hugging them. 

But there are many dogs out there with less then stellar temperament that are managed quite effectively and do not bite people because their owners respect their limits. So is there a difference between, my limit is your beak in my face, or my limit is being in a crowd of people? 

I do not know if I could live with a dog I was truly afraid would bite me if I stepped out of line with him. I can live with a dog that will bark, lunge and act a fool if a stranger comes up to their crate or kennel.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

selzer said:


> I do not know if I could live with a dog I was truly afraid would bite me if I stepped out of line with him. I can live with a dog that will bark, lunge and act a fool if a stranger comes up to their crate or kennel.


So, is it okay if the dog wants to bite everyone except its family?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Having a crate/kennel reactive dog is not a dog that will bite anyone. It is a dog that if it is cornered and knows it, will bark and act a fool to try to get the people to leave it alone. This same dog out in the public place is perfectly fine, has a CGC, is not dog aggressive, can be groomed by strangers, can be seen at the vet. 

But even if a dog was reactive to strangers, I could keep the dog safe and muzzle it for a vet visit. It does not necessarily have to be put down. A dog that will bite me? When I feed it, clean up after it, give it water, etc, no sorry, that dog will have to go. And not to a pound or shelter or new home. Of course I would have to have had the dog for enough time for the dog to trust me, and ruling out serious pain or serious illness.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> I haven't read most of those threads...but I may have commented on one???
> I have a hard time reading those types of threads, because my "personal opinion" can and does offend some people...so I choose to not give an opinion.
> I *can* say ..that.....I cannot accept or tolerate "aggression" from any dog that is *unprovoked*......even more from a dog that I have raised from a small puppy.
> Unstable nerves and temperament is a growing epidemic and element in this breed, and until we are strong & hard enough as breeders and owners to acknowledge it, and "cull" the individuals from the breeding pool.....it will continue to be a problem, and we will read more threads about it. *And we will continue to find "reasons and "excuses" for the behaviour, while trying to live with & offer suggestions on how to "fix" the problem.
> ...


I have to say, I agree with this (and I apply it to all dog breeds - not just German Shepherds), given the aggression is unprovoked and is proven as far as possible not to be due to a treatable medical condition. Breeding would be 100% out of the question - and I _would_ try fixing the animal if it wasn't already, that might alleviate the aggression right there. 

While I might be willing to take the risk that I would be more severely injured while attempting to rehabilitate the dog, I would not be willing to take the chance that someone else would be. I can't think of any way to rehabilitate the dog and NOT take that risk. It's not as though you can keep them in isolation from other humans and end up with a stable animal.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think people can make an informed opinion based on one or two sentences of a scenario. You need to have more of the facts to do that. And ALL dog bite situations are different and need to be looked at as such. You can never give a generalized stamp that will cover all cases to have it fit. If that were the case we could have a nice little sticky that says "Did your dog bit? Read here" and we wouldn't need to even answer the threads we could just direct new posters there. But again, every situation is different and therefore every situation will require different answers. Plus you have people with a vast differentiation in levels of experience are answering so their answers will be vastly different as well.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think the outcome of the replies has a lot do do with the original post from the OP. That drives a lot of the opinions and emotions of those reading the threads.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> I agree that we need to not breed bad temperament. But I do not know that we need to kill every dog that does have a problem.
> 
> I get the feeling that a dog that is biting out of having someone in his space is more acceptable than a dog who bites due to poor nerves or poor character.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Well said.


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## danbibby (May 22, 2011)

It's important to start training a GSD as early as possible in socialization and knowing the clear difference between situations, especially when to act in a clearly desperate and dangerous situation.

It's one thing to have an intruder on your property. Your dog can't just go chase down and attack anyone..especially children and adolescents wandering in by accident or innocent purpose.

Every few days we'll test our dog with friends who are dressed in different clothes, wearing different odors, carrying tools, garden things, books and bags, we reward him when he clearly tells the difference.

The dog is only as good as the handler and if the handler won't expend the time to teach his dog right, trouble will be the only response.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

robinhuerta said:


> I haven't read most of those threads...but I may have commented on one???
> I have a hard time reading those types of threads, because my "personal opinion" can and does offend some people...so I choose to not give an opinion.
> I *can* say ..that.....I cannot accept or tolerate "aggression" from any dog that is *unprovoked*......even more from a dog that I have raised from a small puppy.
> Unstable nerves and temperament is a growing epidemic and element in this breed, and until we are strong & hard enough as breeders and owners to acknowledge it, and "cull" the individuals from the breeding pool.....it will continue to be a problem, and we will read more threads about it. *And we will continue to find "reasons and "excuses" for the behaviour, while trying to live with & offer suggestions on how to "fix" the problem.
> ...


I am with you.

And should add that aggression is one of those topic I almost never offer advice on a web board. In many cases I don't agree with the advice offered and in many others the bigger problem is handling and the human extreme of the leash, so for my own mental health, I just don't go to those threads.


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