# White German Shepherds rare?



## Jessiewessie99

I have been reading about a lot of people breeding their White GSDs because they are rare.Is this true?Mostly its not good breeders who are saying this.Are there good breeders who say this too or other GSD people.

I personally don't think they are rare, I see them alot, a few people who live near me have White GSDs.


----------



## sitstay

No, they are mot rare. 
Sheilah


----------



## FuryanGoddess

I'd say Panda's are rare, but never whites, they might not be the total norm, but there are quite a few, even on here there seems to be a lot. 

Personally, I LOVE the look of the Panda Shep, and I'd love to get my hands on one that didn't cost an arm and a leg... so beautiful.


----------



## Vinnie

No white GSDs are not rare.


----------



## SouthernThistle

"Rare" is one of those words that are often used by folks to tack on another zero onto their pet's prices especially when it comes to color or size.

Now, if it was a rare BREED of dog, that's another story.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Yea figures.People can be so greedy.


----------



## Melly

SouthernThistle said:


> "Rare" is one of those words that are often used by folks to tack on another zero onto their pet's prices especially when it comes to color or size.
> 
> Now, if it was a rare BREED of dog, that's another story.



Totally agree with you on that one anytime someone says rare color you know they either don't know the breed or are hoping to find someone else that doesn't know to sell them to


----------



## AbbyK9

There is no such thing as a "rare" color in the German Shepherd. There are two kinds of color - colors that are accepted under the standards and colors that are not. 

There are some breeders who specifically breed for colors that are outside the standard, such as blues and livers, because it allows them to advertise these dogs as "rare colors" and add on additional costs to the price of the puppy because it's "rare" and "unique" and comes with the promise that you will be "the only one on your block to own one." People like the idea of having something unique and happily support those breeders, just like people buy "designer dogs" or brand name items.

That said, the White German Shepherd is in the process of becoming its own breed. In the United States, they are recognized by the United Kennel Club (UKC) and can be shown in conformation, but they are not recognized by the American Kennel Club (AKC).

The white Shepherds are a little different in terms of where they fall in the "outside the standard" classification because whites were not originally considered to be faulty or outside the standard. It wasn't until the 1930s in Germany that they were excluded. At the time, it was assumed that the white color would be linked to genetic problems and that it could cause dilution of colors if white dogs were bred to regularly colored dogs. We now know, of course, that whites are not albinos and don't cause dilution of color - instead, the white is a masking gene, which basically covers the coloring of a regularly-colored dog and turns it white. You can breed a white that carries black/tan to a black/tan dog and get an entirely black/tan litter. Unfortunately, it has not changed back to allow whites into the standard.

There are some breeders who like to play whites up as "rare" so they can charge more for them, and there are also breeders of normally-colored dogs who continue to spread false information about whites. I came across a page once that said whites caused dilution of colors and that whites could not herd because the sheep viewed them as "one of them". It was on the website of a black German Shepherd breeder.


----------



## GermanPrinceHero

White GSD's are not that rare and most are bred to be white. Others, like my white GSD was not bred to be white. Instead his parents both had the white gene and by a fluke, he was all white. I did not pay any extra for him because of his ACA status and he was the runt of the litter (if they only saw him now) Both of his parents have a little white in them, but one was mostly black and the other mostly tan colors. He could not be AKC registered because he is all white. Had to register him through the ACA. All white is considereed a breed flaw because one of the breeds main objective is herding and an white dog blends in too well with the livestock they are intended to herd and is not as effective.


----------



## FuryanGoddess

See, this is why I was told Zeva's not reg. They siad her G-Father is white and could not be reg. Someone on here said that they can be, have been able to for a long while... I just don't know anymore.. they can be reg, but not shown, from what I understand but to be AKC Reg, both parents also have to be. Zeva's father wasn't because of this white thing... 



GermanPrinceHero said:


> White GSD's are not that rare and most are bred to be white. Others, like my white GSD was not bred to be white. Instead his parents both had the white gene and by a fluke, he was all white. I did not pay any extra for him because of his ACA status and he was the runt of the litter (if they only saw him now) Both of his parents have a little white in them, but one was mostly black and the other mostly tan colors. He could not be AKC registered because he is all white. Had to register him through the ACA. All white is considereed a breed flaw because one of the breeds main objective is herding and an white dog blends in too well with the livestock they are intended to herd and is not as effective.


----------



## Vinnie

GermanPrinceHero said:


> He could not be AKC registered because he is all white. Had to register him through the ACA.


As far as AKC registration goes - white GSDs can be registered if their parents are registered. There must be some other reason they did not register him with the AKC.




GermanPrinceHero said:


> All white is considereed a breed flaw because one of the breeds main objective is herding and an white dog blends in too well with the livestock they are intended to herd and is not as effective.


While it is true that white is considered a breed fault it is not true that white dogs can't heard livestock or that they would be any less effective at herding because of their color.


----------



## arycrest

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I have been reading about a lot of people breeding their White GSDs because they are rare.Is this true?Mostly its not good breeders who are saying this.Are there good breeders who say this too or other GSD people.
> 
> I personally don't think they are rare, I see them alot, a few people who live near me have White GSDs.


As everyone has stated the white color is NOT rare. I personally have never heard of a breeder who I consider to be ethical claim that the color is rare. IMHO it's a marketing ploy used by breeders I personally consider to be unscrupulous.


----------



## GermanPrinceHero

FuryanGoddess said:


> See, this is why I was told Zeva's not reg. They siad her G-Father is white and could not be reg. Someone on here said that they can be, have been able to for a long while... I just don't know anymore.. they can be reg, but not shown, from what I understand but to be AKC Reg, both parents also have to be. Zeva's father wasn't because of this white thing...


I belive one of Prince's parents was AKC and the other ACA. I did find out that both parents have to have the white gene for him to be all white. So somewhere down the line on the AKC side, there could have easily been an all white one that was registered AKC. I have still been told and read that all white is still considered a breed flaw and can't be registered AKC. I guess unless it was lied about, which wouldn't be right. Prince is all white. He has a little hint of tan on the very ends of some of his hair in patches, but his undercoat is all white. I suppose one could enter that on a form as tan and white, but I'm not sure if that would be the honest thing to do.


----------



## arycrest

GermanPrinceHero said:


> I belive one of Prince's parents was AKC and the other ACA. I did find out that both parents have to have the white gene for him to be all white. So somewhere down the line on the AKC side, there could have easily been an all white one that was registered AKC. I have still been told and read that all white is still considered a breed flaw and can't be registered AKC. I guess unless it was lied about, which wouldn't be right. Prince is all white. He has a little hint of tan on the very ends of some of his hair in patches, but his undercoat is all white. I suppose one could enter that on a form as tan and white, but I'm not sure if that would be the honest thing to do.


It's probably because Prince's one parent who is registered with ACA and wasn't registered with AKC that you can't register Prince.

As Vinnie has already stated, a WGSD can be registered with AKC as long as both the sire and dam are also registered with AKC. The WGSD can participate in all AKC events open to the GSD except for conformation because the color is a disqualification in the breed standard.

It's not unusual for a WGSD to have biscuit coloring around the ears, a streak down the back, and/or on the tip of the tail.


----------



## AbbyK9

In order for a dog to be registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC), both the dam (mother) and the sire (father) have to be registered with the American Kennel Club. Their coloring has no impact on whether your dog can be registered with the AKC at all. You can register a white dog, a liver dog, a blue dog, even the pandas, as long as BOTH parents are registered with the AKC.

What you can NOT do is show a white German Shepherd - or, for that matter, a blue, liver, or panda - in the conformation (show) ring. Every other AKC event is open to an AKC registered dog, regardless of color.

In order for a puppy to be born all white, both parents have to carry the gene that causes the white masking of the fur. If those genes combine in the right way, some pups in the litter will be white while the rest will be "normal" Shepherd colors. A litter where both parents are not white but carry the gene can throw white pups and normal colored pups. 

When two whites are bred, they can only produce white puppies, though.

White German Shepherds are not always solid white - and don't have to be to be considered White German Shepherds. Some are a very light tan/champagne color, some have little tan points. They are still considered "white".

As far as herding is concerned, the color of the dog has nothing at all to do with whether the dog is suitable for herding sheep or not. Although the dogs are white (and so are the sheep ... well, kinda ... most sheep are more of a dirty gray color), they still smell, act, and sound like dogs and are equally suited to herding sheep than dogs of other colors. I believe there are several members on this board who have whites AND herd with them.


----------



## arycrest

AbbyK9 said:


> ...
> What you can NOT do is show a white German Shepherd - or, for that matter, a blue, liver, or panda - in the conformation (show) ring. Every other AKC event is open to an AKC registered dog, regardless of color.
> ...


It's funny, I just posted a question on another thread in the Show forum about this. I can't find anything in the AKC breed standard that would DQ the tri-color (so called Panda) to be disqualified from the conformation ring. I'm not saying they would get any points, but I can't see where they can't be shown either, and was wondering if anyone has seen or heard of one being shown in conformation in AKC or CKC?
http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/


----------



## Jessiewessie99

arycrest said:


> As everyone has stated the white color is NOT rare. I personally have never heard of a breeder who I consider to be ethical claim that the color is rare. IMHO it's a marketing ploy used by breeders I personally consider to be unscrupulous.



yea it was someone from the UK. they were also a BYB.


----------



## AbbyK9

> I can't find anything in the AKC breed standard that would DQ the tri-color (so called Panda) to be disqualified from the conformation ring. I'm not saying they would get any points, but I can't see where they can't be shown either, and was wondering if anyone has seen or heard of one being shown in conformation in AKC or CKC?


I think the panda, just like livers and blues, would be considered "serious faults" and could probably be entered in conformation but would not make it very far. 

Although I seem to remember reading somewhere that a dog with more than x percentage of white would be disqualified? For the life of me, I don't recall where I saw that, though.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Panda Shepherds!.lol.


----------



## mjbgsd

> Although I seem to remember reading somewhere that a dog with more than x percentage of white would be disqualified? For the life of me, I don't recall where I saw that, though.


I read that somewhere too. I know it's ok to have some white like on the chest or feet but if it covers a lot of the body then it's a DQ or maybe it's a fault.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I think WGSDs are pretty.lol.


----------



## LaRen616

I can honestly say that I have only seen one white GSD in person. I have never seen a Panda or Liver GSD in person. Also you would not believe how many people have told me that they did not know GSD's came in any other color besides black/tan. People to this day do not believe that my black GSD is purebred. Before I got my black GSD I had never seen one in person, I just knew that they were out there.


----------



## SouthernThistle

GermanPrinceHero said:


> All white is considereed a breed flaw because one of the breeds main objective is herding *and an white dog blends in too well with the livestock they are intended to herd* and is not as effective.


I think that was proven to be an old wives' tale actually.


----------



## arycrest

LaRen616 said:


> I can honestly say that I have only seen one white GSD in person. I have never seen a Panda or Liver GSD in person. Also you would not believe how many people have told me that they did not know GSD's came in any other color besides black/tan. People to this day do not believe that my black GSD is purebred. Before I got my black GSD I had never seen one in person, I just knew that they were out there.


I saw a liver GSD once. It wasnt really what I'd call a liver color, more like a rich chocolate. She had the most beautiful piercing emerald green eyes.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

arycrest said:


> I saw a liver GSD once. It wasnt really what I'd call a liver color, more like a rich chocolate. She had the most beautiful piercing emerald green eyes.


that seems like a pretty dog!


----------



## Jessiewessie99

SouthernThistle said:


> I think that was proven to be an old wives' tale actually.


I know isnt there another breed of dog thats white for a reason?I remember seeing 2 of them walking around in this small town near San Diego.I forgot the dog names, but they were big, white, with floppy ears, and were white to trick wolves into thinking they were sheep.


----------



## SouthernThistle

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I know isnt there another breed of dog thats white for a reason?I remember seeing 2 of them walking around in this small town near San Diego.I forgot the dog names, but they were big, white, with floppy ears, and were white to trick wolves into thinking they were sheep.


Great Pyrenees are white livestock guardian dogs as are Akbash, Kuvasz, and Maremma.


----------



## Chris Wild

arycrest said:


> I saw a liver GSD once. It wasnt really what I'd call a liver color, more like a rich chocolate. She had the most beautiful piercing emerald green eyes.


Yes, they're more a chocolate brown color. Liver in GSDs is actually the exact same genetic mechanism as chocolate Labs. A chocolate lab is a black lab with liver dilution, just as a liver GSD has it's black markings diluted. Same genes.


----------



## Rerun

Chris Wild said:


> Yes, they're more a chocolate brown color. Liver in GSDs is actually the exact same genetic mechanism as chocolate Labs. A chocolate lab is a black lab with liver dilution, just as a liver GSD has it's black markings diluted. Same genes.


Didn't someone that used to post here frequently have a beautiful liver GSD? I think she also had a regular black/tan one also. The B/T was a female, and the liver was a male she adopted as a pup who almost died shortly thereafter, but I don't remember why. I just remember photos and the discussions of him being in the doggie ICU hooked up to IV's and whatnot.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

SouthernThistle said:


> Great Pyrenees are white livestock guardian dogs as are Akbash, Kuvasz, and Maremma.


Yea that one.those are huge dogs.


----------



## ninemaplefarm

Sorry coming onto this thread late...

From what I understand, white german shepherds were accepted since the beginning. Then, in 1968 (I think) AKC breeders got them banned from showing in conformation. They could still be AKC registered and shown in performance events. 

Also, the white shepherd was preferred for herding as to disguise him from predators. Likewise, most livestock guardian dogs are also white. When the white shepherds began being used for military purposes, they felt they stood out too much and were not easy to camouflage. However, those that wanted to ban white shepherds said the white color was a fault in herding as the shepherd could not distinguish the dog from sheep. Um, whatever!

However, the white shepherd is no different from the colored shepherd. Yes, from my understanding, a white is recessive so the parents must be homozygous white or heterozygous white to produce white.

The UKC also registers german shepherds but they can be registered as either german shepherds (who just happen to be white) or a separate designation as a "white shepherd". Most breeders who AKC register their dogs will UKC register them as german shepherds. Otherwise, a breeder cannot breed a registered german shepherd to a registered white shepherd as they would be declared 2 separate breeds.

I have been following the white shepherd as I am impressed with the health records kept on a lot of these dogs. Very, very impressive health stats. Plus, most modern white shepherds , probably due to the fact that conformation showing was limited, have maintained a nice old style look with a straighter back and a lot less angulation. Most of the breeding dogs I have seen all have performance titles. So, there you go!

But, I am no expert and everything I have written is just from my own research so take it for what it is worth!


----------



## AbbyK9

I think you are a little bit off in your history of the White German Shepherd dog, Maple. 

The Whites were originally excluded from the breed standard in Germany in the 1930's because it was believed that the white coloring was a dilute and would cause dilution of other colors if bred to normally colored dogs. The AKC followed this in the 1950's, based on the same faulty logic. It never had anything to do with the herding or working ability (or lack thereof).

Herding dogs and livestock guardian dogs are two very different things. Guardians stay with the flock to protect them, especially when there is no human sheep herder with them, but do not herd. Herding dogs move the sheep under the supervision of the sheep herder who directs the dogs on where to move the sheep to. While Whites can certainly herd, they were not "preferred" for herding.

As for military use ... back in the days of World War I and World War II where most dogs in the working dog programs had been donated by the owners, rather than come from a military dog program, dogs of all colors were accepted - heck, even most breeds were accepted - regardless of color. White dogs would certainly not have been difficult to camouflage - the German Army camouflaged white horses all the time, which are a heck of a lot bigger than a dog.


----------



## ninemaplefarm

Abby,

Well, there you have it then...so much for my research!!:blush:


----------



## jncashep21

I just got my first German Shepherd, I have been wanting one for years. He is a snow white looking one. I was trying too do research on them being I havent seen any in my area before and it is crazy how many different sites contridict each other. One site says dont ever buy one because ALL white shepherds are aggressive. Another says that they are all sickly being that the genes are bad or something causes them not to live very long. All kinds of different stuff. I like German Shepherds because I have heard most of my life that they seem to be one of the most loyal dogs, i have 3 kids and wanted a dog that would love them as much as they love the dog. I like the intellegence of a Shepherd. My pup is only 5 weeks old, a little early probaly to leave its mother but mother actually had 12 pups and stopped feeding them i guess after she kept getting bit, ( well that is what the owner told me anyways) I realize it is too early to tell being my dog is still a really small puppy but I hope that its not true that the white ones are meaner. I am kinda dumb on that part i guess but i always thought it didtn matter the color, what mattered is the way you raise it. Any suggestions ?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

jncashep21 said:


> My pup is only 5 weeks old, a little early probaly to leave its mother but mother actually had 12 pups and stopped feeding them i guess after she kept getting bit, ( well that is what the owner told me anyways) I realize it is too early to tell being my dog is still a really small puppy but I hope that its not true that the white ones are meaner. I am kinda dumb on that part i guess but i always thought it didtn matter the color, what mattered is the way you raise it. Any suggestions ?


You might want to start a new topic about raising a 5 week old pup. She/he is really very young to already be away from the litter.


----------



## cliffson1

We had white GS at Fort Benning in the seventies.


----------



## Avmo

My dog's great grandparents were white 

WGSC CH Hytyme's Zion Rose Regalwise - German Shepherd Dog
WGSC CH Regalwise Klone Ranger CDX, TD/HC - German Shepherd Dog

She herself is a mixed breed resulting in her breeder's GSD somehow getting around her pet pyrenean mastiff when she went into heat. Such a blessing that oops litter caused for my family though.


----------



## BlackJack

I think a better question in a old thread would be. How rare are WGSD in litters that are not being being bred for white dogs?


----------



## tobym333

I read some where on the first page that their dog could not be registered because their dog was a WGSD. I own a WGSD and I got him registered through the AKC. Both his parents were white and registered . 

Just my 2 cents though.


----------

