# Can 100% Obedience be attained?



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Drifter2406 said:


> Should be a good fit, not sure why you you might feel the need for prong collars, if you are good enough at training there is no need for anything like that.


I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.

That being said, I have absolutely nothing against their use. I just think you shouldn't enter into training a puppy thinking that "at some point, a prong collar will be needed".

Or an ecollar for that matter! You have all these "professional" trainers online telling you that the "only" way to get 100% obedience off leash is with an ecollar.

Put simply, there's no such thing as 100% obedience. There are competing motivators! A dog will choose everytime, whether what you're asking versus what they're after means more! So yeah, you can crank up the shock and it will help some of the time. Not always though...nothing is 100% unless you shock the dog such that he/she cannot continue moving.

It's difficult to witness! And I personally don't ever recommend it. You know, to each their own, but my dog, with zero ecollar work, is 98% reliable off leash! I'm happy with that, and see no need to introduce an ecollar!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I just have to point this out Tim.



tim_s_adams said:


> I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.
> 
> Or an ecollar for that matter!


So you have never trained a dog with these tools.



tim_s_adams said:


> Put simply, there's no such thing as 100% obedience.


But you somehow know that 100% recall is impossible without shocking the dog until it doesn't move. This is false.

Some of the highest level trainers in the world use these tools to work in incredibly distracting environments. Take a look at a PSA3 trial, Ring trials, SAR, bomb detection, field trials.

While I understand that no tool is necessary, demeaning those that use these tools properly is offensive, particularly when you don't have any experience in their use.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I never used a prong or E collar on any dog and also had good results in obedience. Then the WL GSDs came along. I can honestly say that Deja is bomb proof and 100% obedient because I am always aware what I am asking from her in certain situations.
Tim, please tell me how you would address crazy prey drive in wild life areas when the dog doesn't care about treats, toys or play and is off leash. The temporary use of the E collar bought her her freedom on the trails.


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## Drifter2406 (Oct 12, 2021)

A dog does not need pain to be trained, all of my dogs have been trained to high standard and other peoples dogs without the use of anything like these,


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Drifter2406 said:


> A dog does not need pain to be trained, all of my dogs have been trained to high standard and other peoples dogs without the use of anything like these,


can you provide some information about the dogs you’ve worked with (breed, lines, drive) and some specific examples / scenarios of what you consider high standards…


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I think it is pretty bold to say literally 100% obedience can be attained.... how about 99.9% ? Lots of variables here, depends what scenarios your dog will be put in and expected to obey, definitely depends on specific dog and competence of trainer, there needs to be a way of teaching that commands are not optional at some point.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I think some things Haz at Shield says in this video ties in here somewhat-


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Why do people think a properly adjusted and used e-collar is pain. It's no different than TENS machine used in physical therapy. You know it is there, it gets your attention, but it's not painful if properly adjusted.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

REEHGE said:


> I think it is pretty bold to say literally 100% obedience can be attained.... how about 99.9% ? Lots of variables here, depends what scenarios your dog will be put in and expected to obey, definitely depends on specific dog and competence of trainer, there needs to be a way of teaching that commands are not optional at some point.


I have never used the Ecollar for obedience but just to break her from chasing and killing wildlife. I will let you know when she is no longer 100% obedient. I use the prong as a safety device because I have a weak back.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

But maybe it's because I am not 100% consistent and maybe because I am 100% happy with her 😉


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## Drifter2406 (Oct 12, 2021)

Fodder said:


> can you provide some information about the dogs you’ve worked with (breed, lines, drive) and some specific examples / scenarios of what you consider high standards…


You want me to go over 40 years of training dogs from Pyrenean's to Bull Mastiff''s to GSD and dozens of others besides and list specifics, and scenarios, sorry haven't got a spare few days.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't know why this is always an either/or argument. Use the right tool/method for the dog you have in the situation you are in.
I maintain that a vast majority of pet owners either never challenge their dogs behavior or never put the dogs in a challenging situation. It is relatively easy to have a well behaved dog when all you ask it to do is what it wants to.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Drifter2406 said:


> You want me to go over 40 years of training dogs from Pyrenean's to Bull Mastiff''s to GSD and dozens of others besides and list specifics, and scenarios, sorry haven't got a spare few days.


One GSD shouldn't be to difficult to describe then


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Drifter2406 said:


> You want me to go over 40 years of training dogs from Pyrenean's to Bull Mastiff''s to GSD and dozens of others besides and list specifics, and scenarios, sorry haven't got a spare few days.


or you could be reasonable and just share a few that seem relevant to this conversation.

edits:

clarifying - i’m not necessarily agreeing, disagreeing or challenging you, but i feel like context is important here.

adding - for instance, if i was asked to share _some_ details about the guide dogs i train (about 80 to date) i’d simply select a few cases that were challenging or impressive or those that successfully demonstrate the techniques i use / support.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Fodder said:


> or you could be reasonable and just share a few that seem relevant to this conversation.


Agreed. It's easy to make a statement without backing it up for us to understand


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Drifter2406 said:


> A dog does not need pain to be trained, all of my dogs have been trained to high standard and other peoples dogs without the use of anything like these,


Define high standard. That's a vague statement.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

After thinking more about it, I can say that she is fully obedient with the business like commands but less with the casual directions/suggestions, which I am more lenient with. Hope this makes sense.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

I cannot see the point of getting a dog that is as smart as a GS, then trying to knock it completely out of him. If you want a dumb dog that will be obedient, get a dumber dog. 

sheesh....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'll say that proofing commands with corrections is necessary to get a dog to perform behaviors that differ drastically from their natural reaction. The stronger the natural response the dog has to a stimulus, the less likely it is to perform a counter intuitive behavior. 

As an example, an out after a send, particularly on a decoy or target that is stimulating the dog either through movements that are familiar to the dog or by running away.

The likelihood that the dog will perform a counter intuitive command decreases with distance.

Achieving anywhere near consistent obedience in highly distracting and stressful situations at distance takes proofing. It takes corrections. The choice of tools is irrelevant to the core of the conversation. A correction with a rock, finger, collar, stick, whatever works for the trainer and the dog is necessary.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Buckelke said:


> I cannot see the point of getting a dog that is as smart as a GS, then trying to knock it completely out of him. If you want a dumb dog that will be obedient, get a dumber dog.
> 
> sheesh....


I say that putting OB on a dog, in a fair manner of course, leads to a much better life for the dog. Valor spends almost all his time off leash, doing what he wants to do. Occasionally I have to step in and give him some guidance. We are able to do things he loves to do because I know I can trust him.

I won't even get into how much working dogs love their job and that it would be impossible without OB.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Just to clarify, 100% obedience is when a dog, after training, can live life without any collar, leash, anything, and be 100% responsive and obedient to his owner. The owner will direct and communicate with the dog in all environments and situations without any ability to enforce commands, and the dog will comply without a single hiccup at all times. Is this what we are talking about?

I will never achieve this nirvana then. I am flawed myself and I can’t expect perfection from my dog. I’ll always use a leash and a collar and always be aware of the situation and what I am asking my dog to do.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSD07 said:


> Just to clarify, 100% obedience is when a dog, after training, can live life without any collar, leash, anything, and be 100% responsive and obedient to his owner. The owner will direct and communicate with the dog in all environments and situations without any ability to enforce commands, and the dog will comply without a single hiccup at all times. Is this what we are talking about?
> 
> I will never achieve this nirvana then. I am flawed myself and I can’t expect perfection from my dog. I’ll always use a leash and a collar and always be aware of the situation and what I am asking my dog to do.


Someone much smarter then me told me years ago that the best behaved, best trained dog in the world is going to disobey at some point. And it will be at the worst possible moment.
I keep that in the back of my mind always.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Someone much smarter then me told me years ago that the best behaved, best trained dog in the world is going to disobey at some point. And it will be at the worst possible moment.
> I keep that in the back of my mind always.


same.
so where i would define 100% obedience more or less as stated by @GSD07 i will never, ever test it. my dog has shown to be “obedient enough” for my needs and lifestyle - after all, no one can create every single possible scenario. can i call my dog off a deer? yes, can i call him off a moose? i’ll never find out, but maybe… probably…

anyway, the point of the thread is the discussion, definitions and specifics are anecdotal, again, to help the discussion along.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I would not ever say 100% obedience. It’s a dog, not a robot or machine. They have a decision making complex. While it maybe simpler than humans, it’s far too complex to say every single time. You can get far greater reliability with tools like e collars and prongs than without them. If you have trained dogs to your standard without them that’s fine. Most of the time I see people say that, their standards for reliability are far less than what I would consider adequate. That’s not a shot at anyone, it’s just been my experience. I’m not saying it’s not possible. The tools are part of my training philosophy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

In spite of the fact that I was warned it could make things worse, the prong proved the best way to get Shadow and I over the hill we had been grounded on for years. We could not have ever progressed beyond that level without it. And now it is in a bag somewhere unused and forgotten.
The e collar would have allowed her a normal amount of freedom, but I ruined it and she is too smart for it to ever be fixed.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

David Winners said:


> So you have never trained a dog with these tools.


I didn't say that, read my post again. I said I've never used a prong collar, I did not say that about ANY other tool!



David Winners said:


> While I understand that no tool is necessary, demeaning those that use these tools properly is offensive, particularly when you don't have any experience in their use


My whole argument is against the 100% reliability claim, and that using an ecollar is THE ONLY WAY to get there!



drparker151 said:


> Why do people think a properly adjusted and used e-collar is pain. It's no different than TENS machine used in physical therapy. You know it is there, it gets your attention, but it's not painful if properly adjusted.


Anyone who has ever trained with an ecollar knows that the low working level stim does not work in a high drive, high excitement scenario. It is always cranked up. 

I'm not saying it's good or bad or anything else, but if you have any experience and you're being honest, you know this!



David Winners said:


> Achieving anywhere near consistent obedience in highly distracting and stressful situations at distance takes proofing. It takes corrections. The choice of tools is irrelevant to the core of the conversation. A correction with a rock, finger, collar, stick, whatever works for the trainer and the dog is necessary.


This, IMHO, depends entirely on the dog. Not all "require" corrections to be consistent. 

My previous dog is a perfect example of this. I could put her in a down stay anywhere and leave for a day, or overnight even, and no amount of wildlife or other distraction could get her to leave. Out of hearing range, still no problem because she was taught hand signals. Out of range of either of those, I concede that that is a scenario where an ecollar would be very useful, just not a scenario I ever needed to teach her.



GSD07 said:


> Just to clarify, 100% obedience is when a dog, after training, can live life without any collar, leash, anything, and be 100% responsive and obedient to his owner. The owner will direct and communicate with the dog in all environments and situations without any ability to enforce commands, and the dog will comply without a single hiccup at all times. Is this what we are talking about?


That is exactly it! I have nothing against the use of any tool if that is helpful for your particular dog or scenario! But the claim I hear over and over is 100% reliability off leash. So yeah, that was the point of contention!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.
> 
> That being said, I have absolutely nothing against their use. I just think you shouldn't enter into training a puppy thinking that "at some point, a prong collar will be needed".
> 
> ...



I am with you, I don't use prong collars and I don't use e-collars. Other people use them with my dogs. Other people say they are necessary, and maybe for them, they are. I think good training is good training, bad training is bad training regardless of tools, and if inexperienced people can get better results using a tool that provides more of a correction, then that will keep a dog from getting worse and maybe losing their home, then fine.

But if you have timing and body language through experience and it becomes second nature or like built in, then these tools are just not necessary. 

Will you get 100% obedience? Yes and no. I think you can get 100% reliability that the dog will not do anything you do not expect. At the same time they are not robots, and training is on-going, so that the dog may do what you want, but not necessarily what you commanded. Or a dog may not be 100% sure what you want a specific situation, even if you tell them. It is hard to explain what I mean. Arwen and Babs, I could call them off a rabbit or squirrel in full flight and they would come right back to heel position. This is when walking released, not in heel position. I mean Babs was out front of a troop of four kids, two in a stroller with no leash, on the way to a park, and the suicidal squirrel came toward us across the street and finally she went for it, I called her and she immediately broke off and came to heel. 

You can have that kind of obedience without ever using a correction collar. In fact, with some dogs I think you will get there faster and with better reliability over time, than if you did use correction collars. 

Now a friend of mine says the e-collar is absolutely necessary with some of them and her dog who turned 2 in September, who seemed pretty bomb proof with kids and adults and other dogs, she let me know that he bit her nephew (an adult) while she was not outside and he was coming in to the house. As the young man was working with her outside with the dog out with them all day, I see it more as bad judgement on the dog's part to not allow the young man into the house where his person is. This is a dog that is trained with an e-collar. Personally, I think she has done a nice job with the dog over all, he is young and again I think that was more of an experience issue than a bad-dog issue. But overall obedience, basic commands, like Come, Sit, Stay, I don't see him as any better so to speak as my two year old out of the same litter. Mine has had less training, but I think more reliable on recall than her dog is. I could be wrong about that, especially as I haven't done any formal training with her. But if I call her name she comes right to me, every single time. Sometimes my friend has to zap her dog. OTOH, her dog may just be wired to be more prey-oriented than my girl is, maybe my girl is more insecure at my friend's home and more likely to run to me when I call. Maybe she is just wired to want to stay right with you, and the boy is more comfortable on his property and wired to be more independant.

The thing is, I've trained, Arwen, Babs, Jenna, Rushie, Heidi, Whitney, Tori, Quinnie, Mufasa, Joy, Milla, Ninja, Bear, Dolly, Karma, and probably others to the point of titles, at least a CGC, and all of these had not needed the correction collars, and all of them, I have to say, they had 100% reliability. Long term, reliability. I had Heidi at home for 3 years, didn't take her anywhere, took her to a walk through on Friday, and showed her on Saturday and Sunday, finished her title, moved up and got a leg in excellent which she and I did not train for. The obedience was like on her. What a spectacular dog. Ninja, took her to the park and was walking her on lead to my car (and this was a dog who liked to scrap), and the Yorkie mix was circling us and snapping and barking, and just the words, "LEAVE IT, and HEEL" had her walk over the soccer field to my car with this going on, and waited for me to get the door unlocked and her loaded while the mutt was doing this. Is that 100% obedience? Could she have done that off-lead? Maybe. Babs and Arwen, definitely. Dogs know if they have a collar on or not, and some act better and some act worse when leashed. With Ninja, I would not trust her to be off-lead in that situation because I don't run fast enough. But she was a superstar that day for me. 

What's great is some of these youngsters I have now, that have not had formal training, but every interaction with us is training. I have a bond with them that I feel I have 100% reliability with them. If I haven't trained them to SIT, or STAY, then they aren't there yet, but can I release them from their kennels and know whatever the distraction, if I call, they will come back to me? Yes. 100%. If I tell them to Go In, to their kennel area, they will, 100% of the time. If I tell them to be Gentle with my Fingers, they will, 100%. If I release them to greet visitors, they aren't going to do anything stupid or dangerous. I have 5 dogs age 3 and under who have not been formally trained, like in classes -- Tinny went to a set of them as a pup, but I can take any one of these dogs out and let them run off-lead without any concern about them hurting people or failing to return to me. And I can take pairs of dogs, like Bear and Tinny, Vera and Karma, Uzi and Columbo, Columbo and Vera with the same results. And if they are with my friends' dogs, either to the west of me or to the east of me, they can run with their dogs, and still come back to me if I call. 

Here's one for you, biggest dog show in Ohio, people milling around. Had to feed my nieces, and the crate was already in the car, December blizzard, didn't want to put the dog in the car and come back in. So, I put her on a down stay, dropped the leash and went across the carpet about 30' and ate lunch with the girls. I went back over there when people tried to engage my dog, but she stayed, and she was just 2. She got her Rally Novice that day, so she was not an obedience dog with out of sight stays or any off-lead work at all. We are talking about reliability with distractions. And yeah, you can really get there, without correction collars. 

People tell me you can't get that reliability without the correction collar, but it works for me. But I like to think I have enough of a relationship with each dog to know what I can expect of them, and if I am not sure, I do not give them the opportunity to make a mistake. Like Columbo, I let him off lead at my house, and my neighbor let his dog out, and my dog, coming back from my friend's home trotted over barking, and I called and he stopped and came back. I worked our boundary line with him, but I don't think he is trained to the boundary yet. He's a puppy. So at this point I will leash him before taking him to my car, until I believe he has that down.

Maybe the correction collars help inexperienced people become experienced people and the next pup is easier and the next is easier yet, and maybe some of those folks would not need the collars. Unfortunately, I think it becomes a crutch and people believe they need them whether they will or will not. I think it can be mental. But when a dog is trained with the collars, they too can become collar-wise, and when the collar is removed, they may continue to obey for a time and then get sloppy, or totally listen if you have the collar on them and not when you don't. So with those dogs, you may need the collar to have 100% reliability. 

Most of the dogs I've trained, I've whelped, but not all of them. Some of them have come to me as puppies, some have come as adults or come back to me as adults. I think that when I made the choice not to become dependent on correction collars, it meant being taught body language and timing from the dogs, from the universal language of dogs, and while I am not a natural leader, my leadership qualities have become second nature, which I suppose is the next best thing. So even if a dog came to me, trained like Odie (probably with a prong collar), or untrained but managed with a prong, like Cujo2, I've removed the correction collar immediately and never put it back on them. Those dogs may or may not have been collar-wise with former owners, but it has never been an issue for me to get obedience or reliability out of them without using the collar. These dogs can pull a sleigh with seven or eight hundred pounds on them, they can drag me to the next county if they wanted to, but they don't. It isn't a question, but so many folks tell me they need the collars because they are not big enough to hold the dog. I suppose if they believe that, then they should use the collar.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I'm thinking of things, and train my dogs, in the ways of working dogs. That is my experience and the standards to which I hold my dogs and myself.

I could call Valor off a squirrel at 12 weeks and that has never changed. I consider that normal and not some achievement.

I could call Fama off fighting a man to return to heel during a firefight.

I just have a different perspective.

I apologize if I have offended anyone.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

There is a vast difference in working dogs and pet dogs. And I think a different mindset in the people who deal with working dogs. Good enough just isn't.
A service dog who is responsible for the safety and well being of it's handler cannot be "good enough". Having a seizure? Was that a squirrel?
It's that horseshoes and hand grenades thing.
If an e collar allows the timing and precision that are needed to proof a bomb dog I am all for it. Imagine the fallout if that dog missed a cue or got distracted?
I worked for years with ONLY a dog for backup. No weapon, no phone, no radio, no other human. So not only did my dog need to do it's job and alert me, but potentially listen and or react in a fight while I was also fighting. Do you really think that I wanted a partner that might get distracted or hesitate?
If that SAR dog looking for your lost child decides now is a great time to chase a deer is that ok?
Dogs will be dogs, and no living thing is perfect. But if a tool can improve the communication to the desired result then why is that wrong?
I make it a rule to never disagree with something I have not studied.
I could time an old engine by ear, and get it close. Or I could use a timing light and be dead on.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Fodder said:


> or you could be reasonable and just share a few that seem relevant to this conversation.
> 
> edits:
> 
> ...


So you leave out the ones that fail to demonstrate the techniques you use/support? 
Sorry, couldn't help myself Fodder 

80 guide dogs? That's impressive.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> I'm going to bow out of this conversation. I'm thinking of things, and train my dogs, in the ways of working dogs. That is my experience and the standards to which I hold my dogs and myself.
> 
> I could call Valor off a squirrel at 12 weeks and that has never changed. I consider that normal and not some achievement.
> 
> ...


meanwhile i’m over here teaching dogs to (intelligently) disobey everyday, lol. so i certainly have nothing to add specifically from that perspective.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> There is a vast difference in working dogs and pet dogs. And I think a different mindset in the people who deal with working dogs. Good enough just isn't.
> A service dog who is responsible for the safety and well being of it's handler cannot be "good enough". Having a seizure? Was that a squirrel?
> It's that horseshoes and hand grenades thing.
> If an e collar allows the timing and precision that are needed to proof a bomb dog I am all for it. Imagine the fallout if that dog missed a cue or got distracted?
> ...


I like the analogy- the engine timed by ear is probably also good enough for 'average use' to get you to town and back but for ultimate dependability, efficiency, etc.. say your taking it to the drag strip or better yet its for an emergency vehicle where people's lives are on the line you had better get that timing light hooked up and make sure everything is as close to perfect as you can get.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> meanwhile i’m over here teaching dogs to (intelligently) disobey everyday, lol. so i certainly have nothing to add specifically from that perspective.


I have mad respect for what you do. It's an area of training that interests me because of just that. I train bomb dogs to stay on the hide unless recalled, as in ignoring leash pressure or other commands. Doing what you do is that on an entirely different level.

And I should specify military dogs and not just working dogs. I do apologize for any slight you may feel by my statements.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

WNGD said:


> So you leave out the ones that fail to demonstrate the techniques you use/support?
> Sorry, couldn't help myself Fodder
> 
> 80 guide dogs? That's impressive.


lol….. well if someone is speaking in absolutes and trying to build a case, i would assume all of them succeeded 🤷🏽

[to be fair… i don’t recall the exact number of active guides i’ve produced - 80 is in reference to the number of dogs i’ve been assigned and have taken all the way thru final testing (some did not make it as guides after that point for health or temperament related issues) as of sept 2018, i had 36 guides in the field. that’s when i stopped counting]


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Fodder said:


> lol….. well if someone is speaking in absolutes and trying to build a case, i would assume all of them succeeded 🤷🏽
> 
> [to be fair… i don’t recall the exact number of active guides i’ve produced - 80 is in reference to the number of dogs i’ve been assigned and have taken all the way thru final testing (some did not make it as guides after that point for health or temperament related issues) as of sept 2018, i had 36 guides in the field. that’s when i stopped counting]


On that note, don't you have one in Halifax that you need to visit soon? Lol.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> On that note, don't you have one in Halifax that you need to visit soon? Lol.


ha!
several!!
when they’ll let us 😔


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> I have mad respect for what you do. It's an area of training that interests me because of just that. I train bomb dogs to stay on the hide unless recalled, as in ignoring leash pressure or other commands. Doing what you do is that on an entirely different level.
> 
> And I should specify military dogs and not just working dogs. I do apologize for any slight you may feel by my statements.


the respect and curiosity is mutual.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I worked for years with ONLY a dog for backup. No weapon, no phone, no radio, no other human. So not only did my dog need to do it's job and alert me, but potentially listen and or react in a fight while I was also fighting. Do you really think that I wanted a partner that might get distracted or hesitate?


Did Sabi wear an ecollar when on Patrol?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Did Sabi wear an ecollar when on Patrol?


Sabi never wore anything but her harness and a flat collar while working. Our dogs were prohibited from working loose so there would have been no point. Several of the other dogs worked on chokes or prongs.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree, true working dogs are in a different league then pet dogs. Their training is their handler's job. I have a different job and my dog is my companion, not a working animal. It's like comparing NBA players skills with those of a highschool team that trains on weekends.

But, that said, why the police dogs are always on leash? Why they do not always out on voice command (Slamdunc explained how they have to be taken off the bite)? Are they not so good working dogs trained by lower standards so they are not 100%? This is just for discussion and not for argument.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Someone on this forum has a signature line that says "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Some trainers only know how to use a hammer, when the reality is that they need a screwdriver. These are not good trainers. A good trainer would learn how to use a screwdriver.

I have always maintain that the send serves no purpose for an actual protection dog. So why on earth was it part of our training? 
For the very simple reason that we HAD to be able to prove that we could stop and recall our dogs at any time, from anything! What better way to prove that then by outing a dog after sending it. Some dogs may be really good at this, many not so much. How do you suppose you would enforce that? And do you understand that an unjustified bite means a dead dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is in training, theory methods, not working dogs, so I thought we were talking about 100% obedience, not training working dogs, bomb dogs, military dogs. But I do know that e-collars are relatively new, and people managed without them, yes, even military dogs, and police dogs up until what 10-20 years ago. Now Capt. Max has a photo of a wicked looking collar that resembles a prong, so I suppose, prongs have been around a lot longer. But lots of service/police dogs used to be trained with choke chains, and, they used to work free, in Europe, some of them might be tracking streets away. 

I am really surprised and have been how violently people defend these tools. Yes, everyone of my dogs that I have trained have been pets. I've put one on sheep, and others have done performance -- obedience, rally, agility, conformation, but I haven't personally trained dogs to be police dogs. However, some of my pups are service dogs and one is currently a police dog that I know about. So I am training dogs with the same drive and intelligence, who have what it takes to be functioning police k9s and medical service dogs, and I can get 100% reliability on leash and off without using the collars. If you want to use them, use them. If you want to wear a mask, wear a mask. Where I have problem is when people tell me that I can't have that reliability without using the tools (or that I must wear a mask). 

Can a dog be just as reliable without using correction collars as they are if correction collars are used, if not more so? My answer would be yes.


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

REEHGE said:


> I think it is pretty bold to say literally 100% obedience can be attained.... how about 99.9% ? Lots of variables here, depends what scenarios your dog will be put in and expected to obey, definitely depends on specific dog and competence of trainer, there needs to be a way of teaching that commands are not optional at some point.


Since a dog is a living being with its own mind & soul (IMO) I don't believe anything is 100%. OTOH, I don't like to judge others, since I've seen plenty of examples of people doing things differently than me, and all seems well. Oftentimes they may to appear superior to my ways, but then I have my own expectations (& red lines) for animals in my life..


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Well, someone said earlier in this thread, ' It is relatively easy to have a well behaved dog when all you ask it to do is what it wants to.' I agree with that, working dog or pet. Dogs are not one dimensional animals, they have brains, they have bad days, and that's why 100% obedience concept is questionable regardless of the array of training tools used.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just to clarify, I too have mad respect for Fodder and David Winners and Sabismom and tons of others too numerous to list. And I apologize if I offended anyone with anything I've said in this thread!

I do bristle a bit at the assumption that if you aren't working a dog is some sport or venue the dog is automatically trained to some lower standard. 

My previous dog was my service dog, albeit self taught. She would absolutely never leave any task I gave her, and could not be distracted or called away with any amount of coaxing. She would and did heel without a leash through busy city streets and parks, and many many other situations. 

And you'll notice I'm referring to my previous, not my current dog...in some ways the current dog will always be a work in progress LOL!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just to clarify, I too have mad respect for Fodder and David Winners and Sabismom and tons of others too numerous to list. And I apologize if I offended anyone with anything I've said in this thread!


Fodder and David deserve much respect. I am NOT a trainer, just a dummy with a dog. We had a trainer, I was employed as a handler. Or as I used to tell people the anchor that stops her from eating your bum!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just to clarify, I too have mad respect for Fodder and David Winners and Sabismom and tons of others too numerous to list. And I apologize if I offended anyone with anything I've said in this thread!
> 
> I do bristle a bit at the assumption that if you aren't working a dog is some sport or venue the dog is automatically trained to some lower standard.
> 
> ...


thanks…and absolutely no offense taken for me.
i don’t necessarily assume that pet dogs are trained to a lower (maybe different is a better word) standard, intentionally, but some times it’s simply environmental and/or circumstantial…. and personally, i don’t train my personal dog to the exact same standard (even when speaking strictly about obedience and not the work itself) as my work dogs, but quite frankly, because i don’t need the same behaviors or reliability as someone with no vision. i do however feel confident that if i slapped a blindfold on and went over our routine, he’d get the majority of it correct.

what i can appreciate is that you provided examples and context which is helpful…. and as i told the other member, that by asking, i’m not challenging them, nor am i trying to fuel an argument, just gaining perspective.

it’s all relative, if you think about it.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just to clarify, I too have mad respect for Fodder and David Winners and Sabismom and tons of others too numerous to list. And I apologize if I offended anyone with anything I've said in this thread!
> 
> I do bristle a bit at the assumption that if you aren't working a dog is some sport or venue the dog is automatically trained to some lower standard.
> 
> ...


Likewise on the mad respect! No offence either way here. I sincerely enjoy seeing posts/information contradictory to my understanding and experiences. I don't mind a bit if I am proven wrong especially if it means I can gain more understanding and ultimately become a better trainer. For me to gain the independence and trust to do all the things I want to do in my lifestyle with my dog I will use some training tools. If someone could demonstrate to me how to get my dogs attention when he is 100 yards away from me locking onto a group of turkeys hobbling away another 50 yards on the opposite side without any tools I am all ears


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> But, that said, why the police dogs are always on leash? Why they do not always out on voice command (Slamdunc explained how they have to be taken off the bite)? Are they not so good working dogs trained by lower standards so they are not 100%? This is just for discussion and not for argument.


i think the danger in this is that you can’t fairly generalize working dogs either. speaking for my own work experience (non law enforcement)… my dogs are all trained and tested to the same standard (which admittedly is a “range” likened to grades you receive in school) and some dogs have to test multiple times in order to pass. these dogs are then given to handlers that are trained in how to work their dogs, practice and maintain these behaviors… and they, at least on paper or to the best of their ability agree to do so. that said, not everyone keeps up their end of the deal, even when it’s in their best interest (safety) to do so. the organization that i work for does annual follow up visits (and refresher training if needed) to make sure that the teams are working safely and effectively. not all schools do this. young dogs / young teams make more mistakes than seasoned teams. some continue to make mistakes and the dogs retire early. that’s the part you don’t see - does the dog that continually runs their person into things or repeatedly misses signs of an oncoming seizure or regularly has to be pulled off a bite - do they keep their jobs? 

so in a sense… even if trained to the same standard, no, not all working dogs are equal. at least in my situation trainer and handler are not one in the same…..


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

@Fodder, are ecolars used in your training? How many hours does a typical dog (as if there was such a thing lol!) take to train and certify? Just a rough guesstimate...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> @Fodder, are ecolars used in your training? How many hours does a typical dog (as if there was such a thing lol!) take to train and certify? Just a rough guesstimate...


regarding formal training only:

my short answer…
no & 3 months (i don’t think in term of hours and i’m bad at math)

my long answer…
no, e collars are not used and prongs are no longer used.
standard equipment in training are martingales (quick release style, nylon and chain combo), nylon slips, gentle leaders and chain slip. based on the temperament of our current dog population, i’d guess about 5% are trained with a chain collar and less than 1% are issued with one.

my typical 8hr day is divided between 4 dogs… minus an hour for cleaning/feeding/etc, minus another hour of driving. usually 2 routes a day ranging from 15 minutes to an hour each… obedience sessions are fit in before or after routes, during vehicle loading, or essentially anytime our hands are on the leash. preliminary testing in both guidework and obedience is tested +/- 20 workouts (routes), final testing is usually around 50+ workouts. however, since each dogs progression is individual, those numbers can vary. for instance… i’m starting final testing with my current group this tuesday, their workout numbers are 52, 52, 80 and 91. after testing is complete the dogs get a couple weeks of “finishing work” and/or custom routes for the client we have in mind, then 2 weeks working with the client under my instruction. the fastest a dog can go thru the program is 3 months, 6 months is not uncommon. it’s not just about the dogs progression, but also finding the right match and they continue to receive training until that happens.

something else to note… during testing, the dogs off leash recall is evaluated in the presence of any or sometimes all - people/dogs/toys/food, but i’d never tell a client to purposely let their dog loose in an environment knowing that all those distractions are around. that said, if it’s known that a client lives in or would encounter that situation in their lives… i will try and recreate a practical situation for them to be able to witness their dogs responses.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> Just to clarify, 100% obedience is when a dog, after training, can live life without any collar, leash, anything, and be 100% responsive and obedient to his owner. The owner will direct and communicate with the dog in all environments and situations without any ability to enforce commands, and the dog will comply without a single hiccup at all times. Is this what we are talking about?
> 
> I will never achieve this nirvana then. I am flawed myself and I can’t expect perfection from my dog. I’ll always use a leash and a collar and always be aware of the situation and what I am asking my dog to do.


Here's the thing, somethings you can't take back. If your dog runs in front of a truck and gets smooshed, or if it runs off and attacks a dog on a lead or worse yet, a small child, or even a grown man, ok, the bites you might get away with, if you have good homeowner's insurance and it's a first bite, depending on where you live, and in time, maybe too quickly that horrible feeling may wear off. But you can't take back the dog being hit by a car. You can be 100% certain nothing will distract your dog when heeling off lead at your side, and you can be wrong. I have healed a dog off-lead through a crowd of drunks, but I worked with that dog every day, off lead, for over a year, in the city. I don't know what I would have done if she suddenly took off and ran in front of a car. She didn't and today she is just as dead as she may have been, but I would have been devastated to lose her to my own error. 

So mostly now, I only let my dogs run free on top of the mountain or in front of the lake, friends I have to the west and to the east that have land and though deer run through, my dogs are easy to call off. And no, this is not an accomplishment, other than I have bond with my dogs. Because it only takes a few seconds to be sorry forever.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

REEHGE said:


> Likewise on the mad respect! No offence either way here. I sincerely enjoy seeing posts/information contradictory to my understanding and experiences. I don't mind a bit if I am proven wrong especially if it means I can gain more understanding and ultimately become a better trainer. For me to gain the independence and trust to do all the things I want to do in my lifestyle with my dog I will use some training tools.* If someone could demonstrate to me how to get my dogs attention when he is 100 yards away from me locking onto a group of turkeys hobbling away another 50 yards on the opposite side without any tools I am all ears*


If you are trying to figure out the solid recall for an adult dog in that situation, you probably haven't proofed it young or often enough.  

I often say that Harley has bullet proof recall, he's never blown me off under recall even under distraction/duress. THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE HAS 100% RECALL, JUST THAT HE HASN'T BLOWN ME OFF YET. 

I can call him off from birds, rabbits, cats, other dogs, even squirrels; and he's nutsy cuckoo for Coco puffs for squirrels. 
I almost lost him to a coyote once that broke 50 feet away from us but that's my fault since I almost always let him run them and hadn't proofed a coyote recall. He had 30 yards under him before I even knew what was happening and had another 10 before he broke back.... and he was understandably pizzed. Normally though, he waits til I verbally release/send him and I have never then recalled him in full flight previously (from a yote).


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> But, that said, why the police dogs are always on leash? Why they do not always out on voice command (Slamdunc explained how they have to be taken off the bite)? Are they not so good working dogs trained by lower standards so they are not 100%? This is just for discussion and not for argument.


The dogs are outed by being lifted off for safety reasons usually. A lot of the handlers I’ve talked to say they only practice outs and use them for certifications. Beyond that they never use it. Some of them are also allowed to use e collars during certs. In a sense, I would tell you they are trained to a lower standard. They are trained to the standard and to get the job done, as opposed to dogs who are trained to be as perfect as possible. Thom Payne is a well known guy in the San Diego sport world and I presume is pretty well known in the sport world in general. He founded the original San Diego K-9 unit in the 80s and has trained dogs that competed on the world level, so he’s very familiar with both types of training. There was an article of him discussing some different things but I can’t find it currently.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I agree, true working dogs are in a different league then pet dogs. Their training is their handler's job. I have a different job and my dog is my companion, not a working animal. It's like comparing NBA players skills with those of a highschool team that trains on weekends.
> 
> But, that said, why the police dogs are always on leash? Why they do not always out on voice command (Slamdunc explained how they have to be taken off the bite)? Are they not so good working dogs trained by lower standards so they are not 100%? This is just for discussion and not for argument.


A K9 officer is still a regular officer with those duties on top of their dog. 

An MP in the military is about the same when in garrison.

A dedicated military handler has one job. The dog. Other than mission prep and paperwork, you are on a mission, training or resting. 

Because of the difficult nature of off leash detection, the drive necessary and the crazy operational environment, the top tier dogs go to SOC, then programs that involve dismounted patrols, then MPs, then LE.

The operational requirements are different.

5 miles of route clearance, 40 buildings, 100 vehicles, another 5 miles of route clearance. That's a single mission for a military dog.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

WNGD said:


> If you are trying to figure out the solid recall for an adult dog in that situation, you probably haven't proofed it young or often enough.


Personally I am willing to accept that possibly I have not trained/proofed it as perfectly as someone more experienced etc.. but I have always proofed the recall pretty hard and I was at say 98%+/- sure at some point I would get him back to me in the mentioned wildlife situation. I am particularly talking about the road to further proofing, going from the 98% up to the 99.9 % reliable recall with a highly prey driven gsd and wildlife distractions or you name it without the use of any 'training tools'.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

@Bearshandler and @David Winners Thank you for explaining in more detail, new info and very interesting!

The police dogs are trained very well here, from my point of view. I talked to a local K9 handler that often cruises our neighbourhood, and he said that he spent 4 months in some out of area training facility initially daily training his newly acquired green dog, and since then he works with a trainer here 3 times per week. After work his dog goes home with him.

He also mentioned that the best dogs go to SAR first, and then the police departments can have their turn to select dogs.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

REEHGE said:


> Personally I am willing to accept that possibly I have not trained/proofed it as perfectly as someone more experienced etc.. but I have always proofed the recall pretty hard and I was at say 98%+/- sure at some point I would get him back to me in the mentioned wildlife situation. I am particularly talking about the road to further proofing, going from the 98% up to the 99.9 % reliable recall with a highly prey driven gsd and wildlife distractions or you name it without the use of any 'training tools'.


I spend a fair amount of time on hikes either watching ahead (primarily for deer or coyotes) which are the main attractants/distractions or watching the dogs as they generally see the prey long before I'm aware of it. Usually easy to see the ramp up/stare/freeze/pointing coming before it's out of control. A lot more difficult to cut off extreme prey drive if a rabbit pop out of the grass 10 feet away


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am still waiting to find out what the steps were to get a high drive dog with a high prey drive to get solid without the use of E or prong collars. So, Tim and others who claim that you don't need or never used these, please let us know. Or maybe you never had a dog with drives like that. How did you correct them or proofed them? It is easy to state that you could leave a dog on a down or sit stay overnight in the presence of wildlife but how did you get there with just hand signals? Or did I overlook something?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

These "percentage of obedience" discussions have always confused me a bit.
What is that supposed to mean? Obedience and reliability are human concepts applied to dogs, they are completely relative, situational and imponderable, let alone "universal".
A shepherd with consider his team of Patous 100% reliable as long as they protect the flock.
I have a lot of neighbors who consider their dogs reliable without actually using much obedience, just because they are naturally chill dogs who go about their life and don't care much about what humans call "distractions".
In the military of course they'll have different expectations... and so on.
My dogs are 100% dogs. That's all they will ever be 
Defining obedience goals that are fit for our dogs and the way we live is our job as humans. We'll have different obedience goals for every dog, depending on their instincts, drive and typical behavior.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I am still waiting to find out what the steps were to get a high drive dog with a high prey drive to get solid without the use of E or prong collars. So, Tim and others who claim that you don't need or never used these, please let us know. Or maybe you never had a dog with drives like that. How did you correct them or proofed them? It is easy to state that you could leave a dog on a down or sit stay overnight in the presence of wildlife but how did you get there with just hand signals? Or did I overlook something?


The strategy I used for that with my girl was 
1) Build an extra solid "stop" gradually exposing her to increasing levels of prey trance. Started with a long line, proofed with extra light and extra long cotton string, that I used to have her act as if she was completely free and still be able to catch her in the act and correct if she was a bit too long to obey (e.g. lowering her butt to the ground too slow, as our "stop" is actually a "stop-sit-stay" in essence)
2) "fake hunting", by which my dog believes we are actually cooperating in the presence of prey. I'm not going to write 10 pages as it wouldn't be much useful, but for instance I'd ask her to leave some scents (especially deer tracks) and redirect her to other prey, e.g. have her flush game instead.

The thing is you'll never have a "universal technique to proof your dog to (add anything)" as every dog is different. On the other hand, aversion to electric shocks is universal, so it will definitely achieve fast results.
I haven't worked much on Buck's prey drive yet, as we had more urgent goals to work on in the first year of adoption. He's absolutely not 100% recallable if he sees deer at this point.
Not much of an issue though, as dogs usually smell game before they see it, allowing me to anticipate and recall in advance on these walks where we may come across deer, which are not most of our walks.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I am still waiting to find out what the steps were to get a high drive dog with a high prey drive to get solid without the use of E or prong collars. So, Tim and others who claim that you don't need or never used these, please let us know. Or maybe you never had a dog with drives like that. How did you correct them or proofed them? It is easy to state that you could leave a dog on a down or sit stay overnight in the presence of wildlife but how did you get there with just hand signals? Or did I overlook something?


Did you overlook something? Yes, reality! I have not anywhere in this thread ever said that I have attained reliability around anything with or without anything! Honestly, please stop making false claims!

If I recall correctly, you are the only poster in this thread claiming that temporary use of an ecollar got you 100% reliability around wildlife. I don't believe that either, but okay.

The subject and title of this thread was "is 100% reliability even possible?". My contention is that it's not. I also firmly believe that there is no single method of training a dog anything, because that's the ONLY way you can achieve it. It's patently absurd.

That being said, what I did say is that on my own dogs I have never used a prong collar.

That's it, in a nutshell.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I believe that this statement is what captured others curiosity in how it was achieved.


tim_s_adams said:


> previous dog is a perfect example of this. I could put her in a down stay anywhere and leave for a day, or overnight even, and no amount of wildlife or other distraction could get her to leave. Out of hearing range, still no problem because she was taught hand signals. Out of range of either of those, I concede that that is a scenario where an ecollar would be very useful, just not a scenario I ever needed to teach


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> I believe that this statement is what captured others curiosity in how it was achieved.


Yes, it did dawn on me just a bit late!

This dog was exceptional! She was a WL dog with what I consider a pretty low prey drive. But she had a work ethic that was phenomenal. Again, we didn't jump to an end result without putting in the work.

I didn't teach this dog to heel until she was 3 yrs old. Once she was taught to heel though, a leash was no longer needed. I taught her to ignore anyone else's commands at 3 1/2. It took 3 days, and from then until the day she died her default would be to look at me if/when someone gave her a command. If I said nothing, she ignored it, if they persisted she got angry. If I said okay, she'd follow the command.

As for staying in place regardless of any distractions, it was something we worked on extensively over the course of a couple years. But again, lower prey drive, so not much work for her to ignore cats or wildlife or other dogs or people.

Honestly, I can't claim any special skill or technique in training her, she was just an exceptional dog! On 3 occasions I did have her stay with my truck overnight. In all 3 she was not in the cab, so could have left at any time. 2 of those occasions we were within a couple miles from home. 

I routinely would have her stay, untethered, outside when I went to appointments or classes, night or day. So lots and lots of practice...


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Yes, it did dawn on me just a bit late!
> 
> This dog was exceptional! She was a WL dog with what I consider a pretty low prey drive. But she had a work ethic that was phenomenal. Again, we didn't jump to an end result without putting in the work.
> 
> ...


Are you back-peddling here on the 'genetics don't matter its all how you raise-em' mantra?? 😜


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> If I recall correctly, you are the only poster in this thread claiming that temporary use of an ecollar got you 100% reliability around wildlife. I don't believe that either, but okay.


I wouldn't claim anything that wasn't true. So I will explain. This 100% cure of wildlife-chasing-drive didn't happen overnight. It took a few months. I used the Lou Castle method. Took her on leash to the trails and town (cats!!) after she understood the collar. At the first sign she gave me (an ear, freeze) that she saw something chasable, I stimmed her. Gradually gave her more freedom. Had to refresh it a few times and for several years now, haven't had to stim her. She does still wear the collar in wild life areas. I think it works as a reminder but I *never* have to use it. So when he sees some creature, she stops, looks at me, I call her "Heel" and if I have toys or treats with me, use these as a reward along with praise. Since it has been a few years, I consider her cured. You may say, "But she still wears the E-collar...". Yes, true because I don't want a set back. I personally don't care if you believe me or not, but I posted this to let others know that it is possible.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I feel it's a dog's inherent right to chase squirrels and fuzzy bunnies  
I let them chase seagulls off the raft too.
Others would disagree with the harassing of wildlife....
How far you let the dog venture and how good their recall remains, is largely up to you....and the dog....and genetics....and training


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I really have a hard time seeing my dogs like mixed salads from which I can just remove ingredients I don't like.
For some reason, this is how I would feel if I started to give them electric shock every time they alert to anything.
I mean, being alert to their environment is a dog's essence.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I wouldn't claim anything that wasn't true. So I will explain. This 100% cure of wildlife-chasing-drive didn't happen overnight. It took a few months. I used the Lou Castle method. Took her on leash to the trails and town (cats!!) after she understood the collar. At the first sign she gave me (an ear, freeze) that she saw something chasable, I stimmed her. Gradually gave her more freedom. Had to refresh it a few times and for several years now, haven't had to stim her. She does still wear the collar in wild life areas. I think it works as a reminder but I *never* have to use it. So when he sees some creature, she stops, looks at me, I call her "Heel" and if I have toys or treats with me, use these as a reward along with praise. Since it has been a few years, I consider her cured. You may say, "But she still wears the E-collar...". Yes, true because I don't want a set back. I personally don't care if you believe me or not, but I posted this to let others know that it is possible.


Thanks for the clarification. I was not accusing you of lying! I just find it hard to believe that a temporary use of an ecollar would give a dog 100% reliability. 

I totally believe that as long as she wears the collar while out, she could be very reliable even without giving any stim. And if you do that long enough so the behavior gets firmly engrained through repetition, it will likely become her default even without the collar.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@David Winners, I was thinking about what Wolfy dogs just said
(". I used the Lou Castle method. Took her on leash to the trails and town (cats!!) after she understood the collar. At the first sign she gave me (an ear, freeze) that she saw something chasable, I stimmed her.")
I don't know who you are referring to as "they"?


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Can 100% Obedience be attained?
As in one command or everything you say is obeyed instantly? What constitutes 100% obedience?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> @David Winners, I was thinking about what Wolfy dogs just said
> (". I used the Lou Castle method. Took her on leash to the trails and town (cats!!) after she understood the collar. At the first sign she gave me (an ear, freeze) that she saw something chasable, I stimmed her.")
> I don't know who you are referring to as "they"?


I deleted my post.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I really have a hard time seeing my dogs like mixed salads from which I can just remove ingredients I don't like.
> For some reason, this is how I would feel if I started to give them electric shock every time they alert to anything.
> I mean, being alert to their environment is a dog's essence.


I guess I have never heard of anyone doing that. I would probably say someone has no business owning a dog or any pet for that matter if they literally 'give them electric shock every time they alert to anything'


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I really have a hard time seeing my dogs like mixed salads from which I can just remove ingredients I don't like.
> For some reason, this is how I would feel if I started to give them electric shock every time they alert to anything.
> I mean, being alert to their environment is a dog's essence.


Wolfy wrote the "shorthand" version of the e collar method, probably because she was mostly addressing Tim.The light stim was the equivalent of a collar pop that would be used to break the fixation on the prey.If she waited a second longer Deja would have been off and running.She was training impulse control.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> Wolfy wrote the "shorthand" version of the e collar method, probably because she was mostly addressing Tim.The light stim was the equivalent of a collar pop that would be used to break the fixation on the prey.If she waited a second longer Deja would have been off and running.She was training impulse control.


Thanks Dogma, all true. That's why one
needs to read up on that method I mentioned.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I was not accusing you of lying! I just find it hard to believe that a temporary use of an ecollar would give a dog 100% reliability.


I guess I am a good trainer with a great dog 🤷😉


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

The long version makes me feel the same. Actually even worst as the idea of applying unpleasant stimuli every time I give a command to my dog for 60 days to create either response sounds absolutely awful to me.
I wouldn't even make it through the first day.
That does mean you guys shouldn't. 
I can now better see how Lou Castle and the "100% obedience" topic are related.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> The long version makes me feel the same. Actually even worst as the idea of applying unpleasant stimuli every time I give a command to my dog for 60 days to create either response sounds absolutely awful to me.
> I wouldn't even make it through the first day.
> That does mean you guys shouldn't.
> I can now better see how Lou Castle and the "100% obedience" topic are related.


I just never use the E collar for obedience; never have and never will.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I just never use the E collar for obedience; never have and never will.


So what did you use it for? Just a "tabou" on any creature she alerts to?
Just to clarify: the feeling I have and the questions I ask here aren't even about the e-collar itself. It's more about the process, what we expect from the dog and how we get there (in line with the topic).
I would like to know what was your expectation for Deja in the situation you used the e-collar for.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i think some may be getting hung up on the word alert… and perhaps misunderstanding or taking it too literal. the statements _being alert to their environment_ and _alert to anything_ are what lead me to believe that, correct me if i’m wrong. typically history has already told you what your dog is inclined to blow you off over, and you have an idea of what you’d like to use the e collar to address. in wolfy’s case she said “something chaseable”…. i did not take this to mean _anything_ such as people, dogs, leaves, or paper bags blowing in the wind (aka normal things in the environment).

i also think that for anyone who has experienced a low level stim from an e collar (granted, it varies between dog to dog), they’d agree that it doesn’t feel as intense as “electric shock” sounds…….. and this is coming from someone who is afraid to take staticky clothes out of the dryer.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Before the E collar she would constantly hunt on trails and disappear while I was outside on our property with her to chase deer and anything that was out there. So I had to make a decision: either she will be on leash all her life or be trained with the E collar since nothing worked: no obedience, no treats or toys would deter her. Not in a million years did I think I would get to that point but I never had a dog with this intensity. I know her triggers. If she looks at a horse, she is relaxed for example. But cats, deer, pigs, fowl, turkeys etc were fair game in the past. She really ran the risk of being injured or killed by wildlife or a farmer, ran over by a car or come home with a fawn or so. Now we have a good understanding of living peacefully with our wild creatures. She still sees them but has good impulse control; 100% actually 😜 (....so far.....)


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Fodder, great point thanks!
The "anything chaseable" mention is part of what confused me.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> Before the E collar she would constantly hunt on trails and disappear while I was outside on our property with her to chase deer and anything that was out there. So I had to make a decision: either she will be on leash all her life or be trained with the E collar since nothing worked: no obedience, no treats or toys would deter her. Not in a million years did I think I would get to that point but I never had a dog with this intensity. I know her triggers. If she looks at a horse, she is relaxed for example. But cats, deer, pigs, fowl, turkeys etc were fair game in the past. She really ran the risk of being injured or killed by wildlife or a farmer, ran over by a car or come home with a fawn or so. Now we have a good understanding of living peacefully with our wild creatures. She still sees them but has good impulse control; 100% actually 😜 (....so far.....)


I see, so the end goal was: not chase anything while on your property, and the collar was used mainly to deter her.
Same as invisible fences in a way.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

This is not what I pictured. I didn't think it was on your property. That must have been so much work watching her constantly to push the button at the right moment...
But what is your dog deterred from exactly? Chasing stuff in general? Chasing stuff on your property?
Why choose that alternative rather that just set a perimeter for instance?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Fodder, great point thanks!
> The "anything chaseable" mention is part of what confused me.


i’m just someone who knows all too well, the difference in my dog perking up at a stray cat vs the split second forward body freeze just before he takes off after a deer…..and immediately knew what wolfy was referring to


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I see, so the end goal was: not chase anything while on your property, and the collar was used mainly to deter her.
> Same as invisible fences in a way.


Nope, everywhere. And yes, it was a pretty intense process for me too.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> This is not what I pictured. I didn't think it was on your property. That must have been so much work watching her constantly to push the button at the right moment...
> But what is your dog deterred from exactly? Chasing stuff in general? Chasing stuff on your property?
> Why choose that alternative rather that just set a perimeter for instance?


Maybe its just me but it sounds like there is still a disconnect in the conversation and understanding the different uses of an e-collar here. By this post it sounds to me like there is still an assumption that the only use of an e-collar is to wait for the precise moment to harshly 'shock the dog into compliance' where in many realities this is not at all true. Low level stimulation which may be the equivalent of a leash pop more or less as mentioned earlier; arguably a relatively polite reminder to the dog that a command has been issued and it is time to act on that. After some reps and proofing ideally a 'reminder' isn't needed anymore. Tom Davis talks about this general concept in the first 10 min of this video if you care to take a look  -


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think teaching a dog to live in the artificial world we’ve created is one of the most important parts of training. Every dog deserves to know what’s right and wrong. Would you rather never be allowed outside because you might run off chasing random animals or be taught that you shouldn’t chase random animals and be allowed out everywhere. While I’m not one to lie about how an e collar works, how it’s used, or how it can be used, I think there’s some fundamental misunderstandings of what’s happening when it’s used. The level you use on a dog in drive is usually higher than if it’s not in drive. That does not mean however that you’ve gone to a severe level for the dog.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Guys, I'm just curious and trying to understand how you see things, that's all I do on this forum. But it isn't always easy as I tend to get very laconic answers or redirections.
The good thing is, though we may not have all read through the same methods and watched the same video links, a dog's brain is a dog's brain, so we can at least bet on that.
Simply put, I'm always considerate of the impact of what I'm doing on my dog's brain function and quality of life.

@Fodder I do know mammals have nuances in the way they react to environment.
@REEHGE I do know that there are nuances to aversive stimuli. 

But this didn't tell me how Wolfy had used the e-collar and how it had impacted Deja's brain, which was my main interest 
And I'm still not sure, actually... the Lou Castle page I found is just defining "escape" and "avoidance".
Now I understand what was Wolfy's dilemma. Of course in my situation I don't have to put in that much effort as we don't live in a property constantly surrounded by deer.
We do have quite a lot, but on walks only, so I can practice anticipation as I said, or walk at hours when deer tracks aren't super fresh.
Still, I would be worried if I was in the same situation and having to use an e-collar to deter my dogs from chasing any wildlife around my place. I would worry about the impact on their ability to just "take in" their surroundings if that makes sense? The lines are blurry to me, where does it actually start and end in the dog's brain? (the dog will ultimately look away from any wildlife to avoid aversive stimuli?)
I insist: it's not about pain, it's about the possible confusion, the risk to just "mess up" their brains.
All in all, I'd rather use an e-fence for instance, as I feel it's very simple for a dog to get: don't cross that line. And it doesn't interfere with anything else.
Teaching a dog "don't go into prey drive mode anywhere anytime" sound much more intricate as you are kind of removing the most essential instinct in the species (or maybe I'm wrong, and then I'm eager to learn more).


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I think teaching a dog to live in the artificial world we’ve created is one of the most important parts of training. Every dog deserves to know what’s right and wrong. Would you rather never be allowed outside because you might run off chasing random animals or be taught that you shouldn’t chase random animals and be allowed out everywhere. While I’m not one to lie about how an e collar works, how it’s used, or how it can be used, I think there’s some fundamental misunderstandings of what’s happening when it’s used. The level you use on a dog in drive is usually higher than if it’s not in drive. That does not mean however that you’ve gone to a severe level for the dog.


I agree and my dogs do know what's right and wrong.
But what are "random animals" to a dog? It's not a dog concept. Again you are bringing up human concepts, and I'm focusing on the dog's brain.
E.g. I taught my terrier mix, who has previously killed chicken, to ignore chicken.
Chicken, smell of chicken, noise of chicken, feeling and taste of chicken feathers in your mouth, means something to a dog. Not "random animals".
So for my girl, there's a ban on chicken (a 100% ban as we live with chicken).
I didn't ban "prey drive" in my dog, just chicken. The way we went about random cats we come across in the streets for instance is a completely different process. Still another process for deer, as context and what it means to my dog is different for each of these species. And so I'm trying to understand what happens in your dog brain's when you take the "anything chaseable" approach Wolfy was talking about. Will your dog then have that "oh oh" feeling anytime they see something that heightens their drive?

edit - just watched the video, and basically the guy explains it's like a pop from a distance, to reinforce what you asked, but that's what I said previously and you replied you didn't use it that way Wolfy, so I'm confused.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I agree and my dogs do know what's right and wrong.
> But what are "random animals" to a dog? It's not a dog concept. Again you are bringing up human concepts, and I'm focusing on the dog's brain.
> E.g. I taught my terrier mix, who has previously killed chicken, to ignore chicken.
> Chicken, smell of chicken, noise of chicken, feeling and taste of chicken feathers in your mouth, means something to a dog. Not "random animals".
> ...


You can’t ban prey drive. I don’t think it means what you think it does. A dog can learns to look to you for guidance on whether he can chase something or not. The same way he can learn to look to you before he decides to bite someone. You realize chasing a ball is prey drive. Chasing a person is prey drive. Most of the protection my dogs do is through prey drive. You have this idea if the dog being beaten down and having it’s spirit broken. That’s not how it goes. Again, the dog understands when they are allowed to do something and when they aren’t.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> You can’t ban prey drive. I don’t think it means what you think it does. A dog can learns to look to you for guidance on whether he can chase something or not. The same way he can learn to look to you before he decides to bite someone. You realize chasing a ball is prey drive. Chasing a person is prey drive. Most of the protection my dogs do is through prey drive. You have this idea if the dog being beaten down and having it’s spirit broken. That’s not how it goes. Again, the dog understands when they are allowed to do something and when they aren’t.


That doesn't answer my questions about the process... you start teaching "escape" to the dog applying stim when you give a command as the guy in the video says, and then you carry on reinforcing that way? Why did Wolfy reply she never used it that way? And then which way did she use it? When to you "remove" commands in the process?
All still a bit unclear to me.
Yes, I'm aware dogs can learn to check in with their human as this is the definition of human-dog bond, I just miss some bits to see the whole picture of how it's achieve with e-collars.
You deter the dog from taking any initiative without looking to you first then, right?
By teaching it that the only way to not feel an unpleasant stimuli is to 1) comply immediately when you ask something and 2) ? (that's the part I'm still confused about) just look at you everytime they see the distraction that has previously been causing e-stim in the training process?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

It may just be to complex for me to grasp without seeing it I guess.
That's also why I'd feel so unconfident using it on my dogs, I feel I would definitely be rubbish at this.
I'd be constantly doubting what I'm doing with these buttons and levels and signals.
I swear I could watch a dozen videos like that one and be like "oh yeah, makes sense" while I'm watching and then would still feel completely lost once I have the remote in hand.
I guess my conclusion thought for that thread then would be: attaining 100% obedience is possible by doing stuff I'm absolutely unable to do. lol


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> That doesn't answer my questions about the process... you start teaching "escape" to the dog applying stim when you give a command as the guy in the video says, and then you carry on reinforcing that way? Why did Wolfy reply she never used it that way? And then which way did she use it? When to you "remove" commands in the process?
> All still a bit unclear to me.
> Yes, I'm aware dogs can learn to check in with their human as this is the definition of human-dog bond, I just miss some bits to see the whole picture of how it's achieve with e-collars.
> You deter the dog from taking any initiative without looking to you first then, right?
> By teaching it that the only way to not feel an unpleasant stimuli is to 1) comply immediately when you ask something and 2) ? (that's the part I'm still confused about) just look at you everytime they see the distraction that has previously been causing e-stim in the training process?


Why are you asking me about the process someone else used? Why not ask them? What do you mean by “removing” commands? The e collar is a foreign sensation to the dog that they don’t understand. Initially you need to teach the dog what that sensation means. Typically this is done using a known command. Once the dog correctly excecutes the known command the stim goes away. Some people pair it with leash pressure as well. After the dog has a better understanding of what it means, you can use it in a variety of situations. If you use an e collar without commands, your dog will be faced with the dilemma of what is the correct answer. In this case I simply recall and stim when I don’t want the dogs to go. If the dig is supposed to be holding a position then there will be a verbal correction along with a stim if necessary and a command to return to that position. The dog is rewarded for proper execution in some fashion. The dig ultimately learns if he bolts without me saying so he will be recalled. So he learns to wait for me to release him. I wouldn’t call checking in with me the definition of a human dog bond either. The part you’re missing is you have to build the habit if every time a certain situation you can create an automatic response . An example you might be more familiar with is dogs sitting at doors automatically.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Why are you asking me about the process someone else used? Why not ask them?


Well I did. The answer was "Never used it for obedience. Never will."
The whole thread being about 100% obedience, I definitely have trouble following.
But thanks 
The thing is I cannot guess what you guys have in mind if you don't say it. I do get what's an automatic response.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chloe, I have to write a book to answer all your questions in detail.. Have you checked out Lou Castle? Deja is not beaten down and her brain is fine. Her prey drive is intense and I channel it in play and searching for stuff. The only thing she and Bo can do is digging up mice. They are too intelligent to get confused. If you need an Ecollar for obedience, you have asked too much from the dog at that very time. Example: I am not asking for a sit or heel when she is elated to see her breeder.
And invisible fence? No thank you. There are plenty of threads on this subject on this forum so I am not going to explain it again.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> Chloe, I have to write a book to answer all your questions in detail.. Have you checked out Lou Castle?


I have tried my best with the English I have.
But I feel none of the replies I get here are actually related to what I said before... 
I'll just give up for now 
I thought maybe I'd learn something new about e-collars. Maybe next time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

🤷‍♂️


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

I don't think that you can get 100% obedience out of a service dog, a pet dog, or another person. If anyone can train their dogs to be 100% reliable in all, even untested situations, then I would like to know how and I would use that knowledge on everything and everyone around me. 

I have never used a prong collar or an e-collar, and my dogs are 99.9% reliable, even the 9 month old GSD is almost there. We live on a large lot with a lot of wildlife, and the dogs are always unleashed when we're in the garage with the door wide open or walking in unfenced areas with us. They don't chase after deer, rabbits, or the neighbor's frivolous cat that likes to tan in their full view. Can I say that they wouldn't chase after a bear? No, because we've never been in that situation. 

It's a bit simple to say that keeping dogs as pets "only" translates into the dogs not needing to know much. My dogs have to know how to react in every situation inside the house as well as outside the house and I expect them to be reliable and well behaved 99.9% of the time. Every minute with my dogs is training. There's a way I want them to behave when they're playing and eating together, learning new tricks and skills, going for a walk, meeting people, or just visiting the local Starbucks. We have never had any incidents or problems with our GSDs that we have not been able to handle without using an e-collar or a prong. (I am sure someone will say that my dogs are huge pussycats and must have ZERO drive, of course.)

Regardless of what tools you use, no tool will replace human common sense, consistency, training, and the need to understand your dog's personality, temperament, and what makes them tick. I see so many people asking "should I use XYZ for my dog", and while it's perfectly fine to discuss training methods, most of the time I think that the owner should know what is right for their dogs, because they are the ones who should know their dog's inner workings. And if you don't know if your dog is acting a certain way due to fear, aggression, or a lack of consistent training and clear communication from the owner, training tools will not solve the underlying issue and can make things worse when used incorrectly. 

I don't have 60 years of personal experience training dogs, but I have a lifetime of experience with German Shepherd breeders and trainers in my immediate family and I am familiar with training tools and methods.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I grew up with dogs off leash my entire life they were different though. Each dog will always teach you something different. I did not have a dog who had as much focus , highly motivated and want to train all day as Max nor the prey drive -no quit in him. I only used ecollar to proof off leash around wild life. I most certainly feel it upped my training experience. I’m not dependent on the e collar either. After making mistakes with the e collar I went to a trainer to help me use it.

An ecollar is not a ban on prey drive- it iserves the same as a leash pop / leash correction but it’s off leash and at a distance if a verbal correction is blown off. Leash pops can be misused just as well with wrong timing and to harsh or not harsh enough. Max enjoy searching for smells for deer wildlife nothing wrong a all giving teaching the dogs some skills to have control over impulses. Max the dog who I use the ecollar on has not diminished any prey drive he knows he is not to blow off a leave it command to chase and harass wild animals. There are no benefits for him allowing to go chase a pack of deer not one. He can be shot , hit by a car , lost , etc etc 
Last video is Max checking in with me when he sees a flock of seagulls - if that was 12 of deer on the beach would need a leave it (no ecollar on) 

__
http://instagr.am/p/CPb0hBHBCLE/


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I totally recognize I'm biased on these topics, it's out of my comfort zone... but that's also why I'm still here, it allows me to discover very different visions of dog ownership.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are so many ways to do things and still have a extreme successful and happy outcome. The dog and the enjoyment you have together is proof of that nothing like running free on the beach and I have ton of videos of that.

When Max was two years old - I missed that small window of opportunity of calling Max back - he was at the point of no return chasing 4 deer on the beach out of my site across the dunes and that same helicopter or type of helicopter used gunshots to stop the chase. Luna or any dog I ever had would not roam that far. When Max came back to me with the biggest grin on his face. I was so happy he was alive. I realized what had happened but at first I had no idea what was going on after I heard those shots. He was leashed on the beach for a long time after that. We roam those beaches off leash more then on -for years -and so many more and not dependent or have one issue with the ecollar. For many using the ecollar is proofing off leash around wild life or proofing off leash - there is still training going on before snd after that. Batteries on ecollars die or if they are to much on the chase zone they can blow off the ecollar. It is though a great tool to put into the mix when used correctly. There is still much more going on though. Off leash “leave it “has been practiced under all kinds of leash scenarios and is 99.9% Max is always enjoying deer scents always- he and we were work in progress for awhile but it was my goal and now in a very happy place and our bond unbreakable because of it. Photo Max is very proud of his protege as they enjoy the scent of a deer.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Wow, ok. What are those helicopters for? Protection of the dunes?
And about the process, stim starts when dog focuses on, say, deer, and stops when he looks back to you?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I would prefer to use an ecollar on my dog, or throw stones right to his face for that matter, rather than have him shot... that's for sure.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lol neither would stop him at that point.

My initial thoughts were as he was being shot out. It’s all I heard gunshots. I did not see anything the dunes are very wide and big gap. When Max ran over to me He was wet and then a helicopter was hovered above our heads. I think it was just a military helicopter seeing the dog chasing deer through the water- which was on the other side of the dunes which is a very wide gap. They were just breaking up the chaos and I’m sure not looking to hurt Max at all. Or it could of been someone else shooting at Max. I really don’t know. He came back wet so that was what I am assuming he was chasing them through water in the other side there is a bay. When max came to me the helicopter was hovering over our heads. I did not look up Max was jumping at it. Even with the ecollar you have to catch them before they get in that zone.

The risk is real though and having a dog chase wild life -things can happen If Luna were to chase something it’s for a few yards and will not disappear. Different dogs. Off leash chasing wildlife -getting shot at and getting hit by cars are all included in that package.

Max picking up a scent and wanting to follow the deer full focused intense mode and is far away if he blows off LEAVE IT he gets a slight stim. He will then deviates from his plan and carry on. If not then I say leave it that if that focus is back on the Deer. Nothing will stop wants in full chase ecollars will not work when the brain is somewhere 100%in the chase. Wildfire was never an issue off leash when we were training. Max was always 150% engaged in what ever we were doing. It was off leashing on trails etc not engaged etc. I’m at the point I don’t use ecollar off leash most often when we are out off leash.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Currently: if she notices deer, she comes back to me. If the tension in her is too high, I can keep her with me off leash with "Leave It". In the past during the training and proofing period, the stim came from God. I stopped the stim as soon as she turned around towards me. There was a short time in which she got collar smart and would still chase without the collar. So she wore it for several years without me having to use it. At home she never wears it anymore but she wears it on the forest trails but more as a precaution. I am sure that Ecollar training has kept her alive.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I would have let him chase those seagulls


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Jenny and Wolfy, thanks for taking some time to explain.
If I understand correctly your strategies have been a bit different though?
From your last messages I understand for Jenny it was clear the stim was like a collar pop from her, given for not complying, whereas for you Wolfy it was what Lou C. calls "escape training". Is that right?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Jenny and Wolfy, thanks for taking some time to explain.
> If I understand correctly your strategies have been a bit different though?
> From your last messages I understand for Jenny it was clear the stim was like a collar pop from her, given for not complying, whereas for you Wolfy it was what Lou C. calls "escape training". Is that right?


I don't recall that terminology. In the end she knew it was me or the collar, I think. They are too smart not to know. Whatever went on in her brain, it has worked. The only limitation I have with her is that she doesn't speak (yet  ) so I have to guess.
Chloe, as long as you are not sure how to do it, just don't but continue to learn more about it. I hope we have been able to help you a bit.


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## Drifter2406 (Oct 12, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.
> 
> That being said, I have absolutely nothing against their use. I just think you shouldn't enter into training a puppy thinking that "at some point, a prong collar will be needed".
> 
> ...


Agreed


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

As long as we ALL remember that my dog isn't your dog! And by that I mean some dogs may actually greatly benefit by the use of those tools. Others, may not need them.

There is no "one size fits all". There are different time constraints too. If you're training your own dog, with or without a hired trainer, there's less pressure. 

But when people pay, and pay big bucks, fir a trainer they expect quick results! This is always a HUGE dilemma. It's tough to convey reality to a dog owner, especially when they're spending lots of money and hearing uncertain outcomes.

But that's reality! That's why you go by reputation, and why newbies find a well respected, established trainer to learn from!

Again, nothing against any training tool. It's all about communication, use what works, just don't use it as a crutch!

My cat has better recall than 90% of the dogs I see...so there's that too LOL!


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.
> 
> That being said, I have absolutely nothing against their use. I just think you shouldn't enter into training a puppy thinking that "at some point, a prong collar will be needed".
> 
> ...


Even the best trained police and military dogs ( and they are the best) dont respond at times and there is no such thing as a 100 percent proof trained dog nor recalls(more like about 50 percent at the most). I do use both a prong and an e-collar and I really dont care what others say nor do I tell others if they should use them or not. If the person them selves are abusive they can make almost everything abusive to a dog=over feeding dogs, letting your dog sit in your lap while driving and not strapped to the seat belt or to me the worst of all - taking small dogs to the flea markets not in pet strollers where they get stepped on, scared to death of the big people or kicked by that jerk guy=seen it many times. I use the prong collar only when my sister walks the big male and he IS a good dog who doesn't pull and I the female at the park. My sister is disabled with bars in her legs and has a hard time walking(think 2 peg legs) I dont need my dog pulling her over when a rabbit or the (sshhhh=SQUs) tease my dogs. The e-collar once in a while to back up leave it/snake training. But never on a puppy.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Drifter2406 said:


> A dog does not need pain to be trained, all of my dogs have been trained to high standard and other peoples dogs without the use of anything like these,


how many of your dogs confront rattle and copperheads snakes/ bears or that massive tractor tires on your land. Here poisonous snakes mean pain/death on my land so you better believe I use the e-collar and glad for them because treats DONT WORK to get a dogs attention away from snakes/bears


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

A bear close enough will scare any sane dog out of any command


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't recall that terminology. In the end she knew it was me or the collar, I think. They are too smart not to know. Whatever went on in her brain, it has worked. The only limitation I have with her is that she doesn't speak (yet  ) so I have to guess.
> Chloe, as long as you are not sure how to do it, just don't but continue to learn more about it. I hope we have been able to help you a bit.


That's probably why I misunderstood your approach, as when I checked Lou C. as you recommended, I read about applying stim systematically while you give a command for 60 days to imprint that escape reflex. 
"Escape training occurs when the dog knows that it’s his action that makes the stimulation stop. He will perform faster and faster in order to make the stimulation stop because it’s uncomfortable. It’s in his own best interest to do make it stop. "
(about the 60 days of systematic stim when you give commands: ELECTRONIC COLLARS – WEANING THE DOG OFF THE ECOLLAR | SIRIUS DOG). I haven't found any content by this author that is actually about the specific way you guys used it.
So I guess I was reflecting more about the relevance of heavy, generalized use rather than on saving your dog's life, keeping the subject of this thread in mind (100% obedience).
Why was this guy banned here actually?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@Chloé&Buck members are banned for _repeated_ violation of forum rules and failure to alter their behavior following _multiple_ warnings and temporary suspensions. individual cases typically aren’t discussed publicly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dojoson41 said:


> how many of your dogs confront rattle and copperheads snakes/ bears or that massive tractor tires on your land. Here poisonous snakes mean pain/death on my land so you better believe* I use the e-collar and glad for them because treats DONT WORK to get a dogs attention* away from snakes/bears


This here is the problem.

I can have my way to train, and you can have yours. But you believe yours is the ONLY way to get the response you need. And you are going to make fun of my way to train, saying "treats Don't work..." Like, I am putting a milkbone in front of the dog's nose to get it away from a snake. How insulting. You claim 50% recall with all your correction collars, and I have a much higher percentage, and since many of those dogs are gone now, I can even claim 100% recall and no correction collars used ever. If I put in a set of puppy classes, I may have used treats, in class. Other than that, I do not train with treats. You people that use correction collars use way more treats than those of us who don't need them, but we get the insults about being permissive and using treats at nauseum.

Training is communication. Whatever type of negative marker will work if you follow basic training rules: consistency, timing, following through, not giving commands you cannot enforce in training, not repeating commands, training it first, realistic expectations with respect to the age and level of bond with the human, etc. Yes, people think that with the tools they get a trained dog quicker than someone who uses their voice effectively to project the negative marker. For inexperienced trainers, this is probably true, but not for everyone. And other people think that a verbal marker is not enough for a tough dog. Well, they are all tough dogs. To force submission physically one would have to near enough abuse the dog. We are lucky that dogs actually want to work with us for the most part, because, especially with inexperienced owners, their physical attempts to punish a dog would probably be scoffed at if dogs were humans. And some dogs are much more sensitive to any type of correction, particularly verbal corrections by their person or people, than other dogs. But I think this is partly nature and partly nurture. By not following through or repeating commands, by not having good timing with positive or negative markers, we can train a dog to ignore us, and can seriously effect whatever natural drive to follow our dogs may have had. 

Some dogs have higher drives, but GSDs have plenty of strength. My dogs could drag me into the next county, but they don't. I'm female and do not need a prong collar to maintain control. No, they do not drag me off my feet when they see a squirrel. That is absurd. My brother's dog, a working line with super high drive and energy, at one year old, she was able to be walked up and down my parents' front steps by my brother in law. My brother in law was dying. The formerly 160 pound guy was down to 89 pounds with two disintegrating hips and rheumatoid arthritis. That dog would go one step, and wait for him, another step and wait for him. She could have so easily pulled him down. My dog, Ender was just two, when I let a fellow with a 2 year old and 4 year old kids see the dog. I let the leash drop, and this young male was really good with the kids. The 4 year old boy picked up the leash, and that dog could have dropped him and hurt him, but he knew immediately that the child (no experience with children at all) had picked up that lead, and he walked a little and turned to check on the boy, and walked a little and checked on the boy. No prong collar ever. So I don't know about your sister or friend with the braces on the legs. A good dog, a dog not trained to require strong handling, doesn't need that collar. 

The sad thing is, everyone thinks they have an alpha dog. They have a dog that needs to be physically corrected. They have a stubborn dog. They have an independent dog. When the fact is, these dogs are the exception rather than the rule, and even people who call themselves professional trainers often cannot assess them properly. Nor do their owners. Too quickly we put the training wheels on, and often they are never removed. Yeah, I have a problem with some of these training tools. I have a problem with excessive use of treats, especially with dogs that can easily become food aggressive. I think treats can be used to load the voice, as people with clickers use them to load the clicker. But I also think that treats for training should be phased out and rather quickly -- before we ever become reliant on them. Ah well, you either get it, or you don't.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@selzer I must say my dog doesn't have that kind of altruism. He'd certainly not watch his step like this, minding the kid or frail person holding the leash.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

selzer said:


> I can have my way to train, and you can have yours. But you believe yours is the ONLY way to get the response you need. And you are going to make fun of my way to train, saying "treats Don't work..." Like, I am putting a milkbone in front of the dog's nose to get it away from a snake. How insulting. You claim 50% recall with all your correction collars, and I have a much higher percentage, and since many of those dogs are gone now, I can even claim 100% recall and no correction collars used ever. If I put in a set of puppy classes, I may have used treats, in class. Other than that, I do not train with treats. You people that use correction collars use way more treats than those of us who don't need them, but we get the insults about being permissive and using treats at nauseum.


I wouldn’t believe anyone who ever looked me in the eye and claimed a dog came to them every single time they called them. That’s one of the biggest steaming piles I’ve ever seen. You talk about using more treats than you, but you don’t address why. I’ve seen how dogs look that aren’t rewarded for what they do and they look terrible and unenthusiastic. 


selzer said:


> Whatever type of negative marker will work if you follow basic training rules: consistency, timing, following through, not giving commands you cannot enforce in training, not repeating commands, training it first, realistic expectations with respect to the age and level of bond with the human, etc.


The truth of this statement is that certain negative markers won’t work in certain situations. You just list that as a million different caveats.


selzer said:


> Yes, people think that with the tools they get a trained dog quicker than someone who uses their voice effectively to project the negative marker. For inexperienced trainers, this is probably true, but not for everyone. And other people think that a verbal marker is not enough for a tough dog.


Why is it tools like prongs and e collars are almost universally used by the top dog trainers in the world?


selzer said:


> The sad thing is, everyone thinks they have an alpha dog. They have a dog that needs to be physically corrected. They have a stubborn dog.


Very broad statement that is patently untrue. It’s quite rare for me to ever meet someone who says that they have an alpha dog or a stubborn one. It’s much less so that I hear this from people actively involved in training their dogs. While I can tell you one of my dogs tends to go into business for himself more and can show same sex aggression, neither of those terms are what I’d use to describe him.


selzer said:


> Yeah, I have a problem with some of these training tools. I have a problem with excessive use of treats, especially with dogs that can easily become food aggressive. I think treats can be used to load the voice, as people with clickers use them to load the clicker. But I also think that treats for training should be phased out and rather quickly -- before we ever become reliant on them. Ah well, you either get it, or you don't.


How do you maintain your dogs drive and enthusiasm for work?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@selzer now I'm curious how you would go about training your dogs to avoid poisonous snakes, scorpions, etc. if you lived in an area where they were prevalent?
We've only got the Massasauga rattler here to concern us,which are not aggressive and really reclusive. I've only seen two in the twenty years we've lived here in their habitat.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> @selzer now I'm curious how you would go about training your dogs to avoid poisonous snakes, scorpions, etc. if you lived in an area where they were prevalent?
> We've only got the Massasauga rattler here to concern us,which are not aggressive and really reclusive. I've only seen two in the twenty years we've lived here in their habitat.


We have a ton of harmless garter snakes and brown snakes here and the odd ratlesnake, fox snake etc at the cottage.
None of my dogs have ever needed more then the leave it! command and I have called them off a rattle snake just this Summer. The Garter snakes provide greater curiosity and they often look to sniff them out of the garden.

I'm glad I don't live in an area with a lot of venomous snakes though....


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

WNGD said:


> We have a ton of harmless garter snakes and brown snakes here and the odd ratlesnake, fox snake etc at the cottage.
> None of my dogs have ever needed more then the leave it! command and I have called them off a rattle snake just this Summer. The Garter snakes provide greater curiosity and they often look to sniff them out of the garden.
> 
> I'm glad I don't live in an area with a lot of venomous snakes though....


My dogs are really curious about garter snakes and want to run after them happily as if they were a toy(which I discourage.The two rattlers were discovered by the dogs,who surrounded them at a safe distance and just stared like "what the devil is _that!?"_After making sure they had a good whiff of that particular scent it was Leave It and we moved on.I'm not confident if they were alone they wouldn't paw at it or nose it eventually.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If you're looking for 100% recall honestly, until the dog dies and you can look back and say "yep, he always came when called" you have no idea if someday that recall is going to go out the window. 

Not every dog responds well to compulsion, some need it. Some dogs are more naturally compliant, others will give you a run for your money. This is why there's no "one way is better than all the other ways" method of training. 

Train the dog in front of you. Use whatever method you're most comfortable with and the method that gives the results you're looking for. It really is that simple....different strokes for different folks...and dogs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If you're looking for 100% recall honestly, until the dog dies and you can look back and say "yep, he always came when called" you have no idea if someday that recall is going to go out the window.
> 
> Not every dog responds well to compulsion, some need it. Some dogs are more naturally compliant, others will give you a run for your money. This is why there's no "one way is better than all the other ways" method of training.
> 
> Train the dog in front of you. Use whatever method you're most comfortable with and the method that gives the results you're looking for. It really is that simple....different strokes for different folks...and dogs.


in essence….. this was the conclusion i was hoping we’d all amicably come to by the end of the conversation


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Train the dog in front of you. Use whatever method you're most comfortable with and the method that gives the results you're looking for. It really is that simple....different strokes for different folks...and dogs.


In a perfect world, yes. 

But this forum is full of people still looking for something that "gives the results they're looking for" and what they're generally comfortable with (or stuck on) isn't working!


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> It may just be to complex for me to grasp without seeing it I guess.
> That's also why I'd feel so unconfident using it on my dogs, I feel I would definitely be rubbish at this.
> I'd be constantly doubting what I'm doing with these buttons and levels and signals.
> I swear I could watch a dozen videos like that one and be like "oh yeah, makes sense" while I'm watching and then would still feel completely lost once I have the remote in hand.
> I guess my conclusion thought for that thread then would be: attaining 100% obedience is possible by doing stuff I'm absolutely unable to do. lol


I guess it's supposed to electronically elongate your reach. But, so far I don't understand the concept either. And, like you, that means avoiding it as I'm waaaay past trusting _anything_ more than my own understanding (except God - not that that's easy LOL).
I try to be honest with myself about my own limitations. Other people are different from me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If you're looking for 100% recall honestly, until the dog dies and you can look back and say "yep, he always came when called" you have no idea if someday that recall is going to go out the window.


This. 👆

As I told my husband just today (yet again, lol): "Just because she never _has_, doesn't mean she never _will_." 

This meme has been going around FB recently and it's so true:


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This. 👆
> 
> As I told my husband just today (yet again, lol): "Just because she never _has_, doesn't mean she never _will_."
> 
> ...


My aunt said this about her kids. They have a way of keeping you humble.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This. 👆
> 
> As I told my husband just today (yet again, lol): "Just because she never _has_, doesn't mean she never _will_."
> 
> ...


Without fail.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> @selzer now I'm curious how you would go about training your dogs to avoid poisonous snakes, scorpions, etc. if you lived in an area where they were prevalent?
> We've only got the Massasauga rattler here to concern us,which are not aggressive and really reclusive. I've only seen two in the twenty years we've lived here in their habitat.


There is a rattlesnake reserve in Rome, Ohio, which is about 15 miles away. It is for the one indigenous rattler that Ohio has. I have heard a dog or two has died from their bites. I've seen copperheads in my yard, but mostly we just get black snakes and garter snakes, maybe some other harmless tree snakes. I have never considered teaching my dogs to avoid snakes or toads or scorpions, or fox or bear or deer or coyotes, raccoons, or possoms, bats, or any other creeping thing. If I take them somewhere their recall is awesome, in fact when my friend had Uzi over her house, she kicked up a bob cat. Teresa called her and she came. If I am with them, I would give the LEAVE IT command and move on. That has worked for me with the little yorkie thing, and many other dogs, cats, squirrels. Snakes are something I really don't worry about.

Bear on the other hand, and horses. I don't want my dogs to get kicked in the head by a horse or mauled by a bear. I have one dog that doesn't like horses, and so I do not let him off-lead in my yard. I don't want my dog accosting the Amish people who ride or drive their horses and pony up my road. Would he come if I called. He did. The one time. But then he ran back out there. And I know that it would be irritating and dangerous, so I put a fence up in front of my door so that no matter what, the kids would have to open the door or kennel gate AND the gate which would give access to the road. It is not training, it is management. Training is great, but management is first and more important, and can be done with no training whatsoever. It is our responsibility. So if we had poisonous spider, toads, scorpions, and snakes (I'd probably move), I might have to train dogs to avoid critters, even when I am not there. But I still maintain that e-collars are relatively new, rattlesnakes are not, and somehow folks managed to keep their dogs relatively safe without an e-collar, so suddenly not being able to train without one for whatever, is a hard sell.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WNGD said:


> I would have let him chase those seagulls


He had chased some seagulls in his time if they have 4 legs it be more of quest. If the ball is out it’s all he cares about. They have piping plovers there to usually in the mix they seem to be slow to startle. So watching out for those little guys it’s probably why we don’t get much grief during the summer season if they are off leash there with the birds around.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

selzer said:


> . I have never considered teaching my dogs to avoid snakes or toads or scorpions, or fox or bear or deer or coyotes, raccoons, or possoms, bats, or any other creeping thing. If I take them somewhere their recall is awesome


Thank you for your thoughts. Que sera sera🎶
A low stress philosophy


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What I consider 100% is regarding the recall. Maybe I don't challenge her as much but she really comes every time I call her. Now, when they are both digging for mice I may have to tell them Leave It a second time before I get compliance. In that situation I don't use the recall in case I can't reinforce it. I have tested her during the duration of this thread, and the recall was 100% with voice, whistle and body language (after calling her name) commands. Deja is not exposed to poisonous snakes, doesn't work as a police dog etc, so my expectations may not be as high. But I am very happy with her as you know 🙂


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

selzer said:


> There is a rattlesnake reserve in Rome, Ohio, which is about 15 miles away. It is for the one indigenous rattler that Ohio has. I have heard a dog or two has died from their bites. I've seen copperheads in my yard, but mostly we just get black snakes and garter snakes, maybe some other harmless tree snakes. I have never considered teaching my dogs to avoid snakes or toads or scorpions, or fox or bear or deer or coyotes, raccoons, or possoms, bats, or any other creeping thing. If I take them somewhere their recall is awesome, in fact when my friend had Uzi over her house, she kicked up a bob cat. Teresa called her and she came. If I am with them, I would give the LEAVE IT command and move on. That has worked for me with the little yorkie thing, and many other dogs, cats, squirrels. Snakes are something I really don't worry about.
> 
> Bear on the other hand, and horses. I don't want my dogs to get kicked in the head by a horse or mauled by a bear. I have one dog that doesn't like horses, and so I do not let him off-lead in my yard. I don't want my dog accosting the Amish people who ride or drive their horses and pony up my road. Would he come if I called. He did. The one time. But then he ran back out there. And I know that it would be irritating and dangerous, so I put a fence up in front of my door so that no matter what, the kids would have to open the door or kennel gate AND the gate which would give access to the road. It is not training, it is management. Training is great, but management is first and more important, and can be done with no training whatsoever. It is our responsibility. So if we had poisonous spider, toads, scorpions, and snakes (I'd probably move), I might have to train dogs to avoid critters, even when I am not there. But I still maintain that e-collars are relatively new, rattlesnakes are not, and somehow folks managed to keep their dogs relatively safe without an e-collar, so suddenly not being able to train without one for whatever, is a hard sell.


I'm not sure where you stand on the use of e collars but since you mentioned poisonous snakes I thought I'd share many of my SAR colleagues and I go though Rattlesnake avoidance courses with our dogs and the tool used is an e collar to teach avoidance. One of my colleagues' dog was killed by a Rattlesnake bite this Summer, so a little discomfort to reinforce 'stay away' is just fine for my dog. Our dogs are not always within our sight so the 'leave it' is not always an option.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

David Winners said:


> I apologize if I have offended anyone.


The only people who could possibly be offended are those people who don't know what they are talking about due to a very narrow window of experience.
Sheilah


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

sitstay said:


> The only people who could possibly be offended are those people who don't know what they are talking about due to a very narrow window of experience.
> Sheilah



That is really too bad for those of us who want to learn more but aren't allowed to see information from experienced posters because it may hurt someone's feelings


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow loves to hate Garter snakes. She startled one a couple of years back, or stepped on it, not sure as I was busy being surprised and then doubled over laughing. All I know is that the whole scene involved a dog darting and grabbing followed by leaping around like a cat on a hot plate while barking, shaking her head, sneezing and gagging.
Garter bites are neither dangerous nor serious, but they produce a noxious oil like substance when frightened. Apparently it doesn't taste good and Punk has a long memory so they entire species is now high on her hit list. This may prove problematic if I ever end up anywhere that snakes are more then annoying. If that happened then any means necessary would be employed because discomfort is better then dead.
Years ago I was interviewing a couple for an adoption. They had recently lost their two or three year old dog. 
They lived on a quiet cul-de-sac in a fairly rural area. Every day the lady would walk down to the mail box with the dog. She had done this hundreds of times, on and off leash. On this particular day she let the dog come without a leash. There was no traffic. One car came around the corner, just one. Just as the dog bolted across the road after a cat. It had never done that before. Once was enough. The dog was struck and killed instantly.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I have one dog that doesn't like horses, and so I do not let him off-lead in my yard.


So you don't train, beyond a puppy sit and (maybe) down. You just avoid putting your dogs in positions where they can blow you off. 
Sheilah


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

sitstay said:


> The only people who could possibly be offended are those people who don't know what they are talking about due to a very narrow window of experience.
> Sheilah


That's the audience here.

Look through this thread and consider the current content contrasted with walking through the mountains of Afghanistan, full of feral and herding dogs, bad guys with guns, bombs, flocks of sheep, donkey trains, ambushes etc... You can't make a dog do that job. It has to want it. You have to put in the work or manage the dog.

This conversation always breaks down into arguments about equipment and it's not about equipment. It's about work. Equipment facilitates the work. 

If an e-collar, prong collar, DD, whatever, is inherently "bad" to someone, they don't understand how dogs learn or the capabilities of these fine animals. There are 2 trainers that I know of that title dogs in IPO without corrections, and I'm going to offend people here, an IPO III trial is a walk in the park compared to one hour on operation Firerock where we took back Korengal Valley, which lasted 8 days.

I worked 8-12 hours a day with my dog for 5 months. 

I could run her with verbal commands, hand signals, a radio, a laser, taps on the vibrate button on her collar. Left, right, out, back, truck, down, recall, search. 

If someone is offended that I would shock my dog on level 7 out of 127 to achieve these results, there isn't really anything I have to share with them. I have thousands of dollars worth of books, have spent thousands more on seminars, DVDs, online courses and training sessions. I could not condense that into a post to convince someone that the equipment isn't bad. The last thing in the world that I want is an unhappy or confused dog. I let my dog beat me up because he likes it, and I kind of do too.

If you watch my videos, I'm not yelling at my dogs. I'm calm, happy go lucky, having fun with them. I give commands in an everyday voice. I get obedience through habit, not an iron fist on the stim button. Yes, I use a lot from Lou Castle, Bart Bellon, Ivan Balabanov, Larry Krohn, Michael Ellis... They are experts. They all want happy dogs that function at an incredibly high level. They look good and perform well.

People read 143 words about a technique and condemn it as abusive. I use that technique, therefore I'm abusive. It's about the equipment and people don't educate themselves about technique. They expect you (me) to do that. 

Well there is this whole understanding of how dogs learn. Plus the nuances that you pick up after training a few hundred dogs. I can't write that here. I can't make someone understand that a correction is humane if they don't believe it. I can't make them believe that an e-collar can be less stimulation than a tiny jerk on a flat collar if they don't experience it. 

I've said before that this isn't really a good forum for me because my perspective is so askew to the average participant. I'm not looking down on anyone. I have no use for making people feel inferior or bad about themselves in any way. It's just hard for me to have honest conversation about things like this topic when it breaks down like it always does.

My dog walks down stairs and doesn't injure people and I don't use those nasty things so no one should need them. Well, if that's the standard, I sure don't need them either.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There is a vast fjord between yank and crank and cookies and cream. The general population fails to see that. The level at which I use an e-collar or prong collar is akin to a touch on the neck with your finger. Yes, I will give a strong correction in a strong situation. My current dog has received 3 of those in 18 months. I believe that those corrections were appropriate for this dog on that situation. He's a bit of a handful (see Carmspack Gus) and it's par for the course with this kind of dog.

He has been stimmed with an e-collar hundreds of times. Low level. Habit forming kind of stuff. If you saw it, you wouldn't even know it was happening. A finger touch on the neck, hundreds of times. Habits are powerful. 

He's allowed to chase deer, rabbits, squirrel, anything really, until I recall him. He gets to be the dog he is, with conditions, just like all training. I take what the dog wants to do and give them ways to access that. Heel gets you a bite. Down stay gets you a hunt. Retrieve gets you loving from daddy. You do work (OB) you get the best stuff ever, for thousands of reps.

But these tools are abusive. This training is unnecessary. My dog walks just fine on a boring walk through the boring neighborhood just fine without a prong collar.

My dog walked through the Excalibur casino, off leash, on Saturday night, without a stitch of equipment, a dozen times, at a heel, with no commands or corrections. He also bounced off the walls, and through the hot tub, playing fetch afterwards.

There are people that have trained 4 dogs and think they know, and people that have trained 400 and understand that you never stop learning. I have been both and I understand.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think those who want to learn will learn and appreciate the knowledge shared and the members who are willing to do it, and those who are offended will disappear into their closed mind and from this board. 

It's actually very important to read real practical experience and advice on how GSD owners approach training and challenges, and get something out of it, even if just an understanding. Like yesterday thanks to members fresh look I had a light bulb go off and clearly saw that I needed to rethink and up my rewards, way up, to get what I want. I search this board a lot for old posts, wealth of knowledge that now would cost big $$$ to get 

Not everyone has access to a good trainer or club but it doesn't mean they are doomed.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> There is a vast fjord between yank and crank and cookies and cream.


Both have a time and place, neither are all good or all bad. People just need to stop. If my dog is doing something that is going to cause harm, now or later I will employ any means needed to stop it. If I deem that a piece of equipment is the best tool to teach what I need to teach then I will use it.

I think this forum is a perfect place for someone with your knowledge. If half the people on here don't want to learn that is their loss.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I think those who want to learn will learn and appreciate the knowledge shared and the members who are willing to do it, and those who are offended will disappear into their closed mind and from this board.
> 
> It's actually very important to read real practical experience and advice on how GSD owners approach training and challenges, and get something out of it, even if just an understanding. Like yesterday thanks to members fresh look I had a light bulb go off and clearly saw that I needed to rethink and up my rewards, way up, to get what I want. I search this board a lot for old posts, wealth of knowledge that now would cost big $$$ to get
> 
> Not everyone has access to a good trainer or club but it doesn't mean they are doomed.


I reward dogs like they just brought me a perfectly cooked prime ribeye, every time. It's a big deal to me when a dog does the right thing and I let them know in no uncertain terms that I appreciate it. It's a habit we should all strive to build.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yes, sometimes we are too focused on appropriately correcting the behavior, and forget about the appropriate reward. I do reward a lot but what I didn't see was that in that situation it had to be an active reward like a ball because I was actually asking a lot!

I am not a very exciting trainer, rather flat, but my current dog thrives of excitement, his little eyes light up when he feels I put my energy into whatever we are doing. He then looks into my eyes, click! and we are a team on the same wave and making incredible progress. I want to always be with him on the same wave, not sure if it's possible but I keep trying


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Can 100% Obedience be attained? No, not if I’m the handler. My current pup is exposing my weaknesses and my last girl simply made me look better than I was. Im gonna go get some ice cream to go with my humble pie now.😁


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sitstay said:


> So you don't train, beyond a puppy sit and (maybe) down. You just avoid putting your dogs in positions where they can blow you off.
> Sheilah


Perhaps. That incident happened when I had about 22 adult regulars and 12 or 14 of them had titles beyond just CGC. Go ahead and make fun of me. Even when I had 28 dogs, all of them I trusted with anyone, and could let them off-lead, pretty much anywhere, and they would come to me, and they never bit anyone (but me, accidently, during a dog fight). At that time, they could be groomed by others, never had a problem at the vets doing anything to them, even really painful crap. Never needed to muzzle them in the waiting room, or put a prong collar on them. I would substitute one bitch for another in classes when one would go into heat, with no problem. I would take one, at random, to my sisters when I was working with her girls, and they would go to the park with me, go to a bike trail for a walk, I would have the little girls, tiny girls walk them in very busy areas. They could walk my young adult male out of a huge dog show while I was laden with the baggage. It seems a lot of folks have trouble handling and training a single puppy, can't control a single dog without a zapping them or correcting them with a prong. Would worry about taking a dog into a class of dogs for the first time. Now I have only a dozen dogs and one does not like horses. I know that about him and instead of making horses uncomfortable with his presence, I manage that so that it does not become an issue. The boy is dying so it really doesn't matter anyway. 

What am I supposed to think? These small seven year old girls can walk an 80 pound, 2 year old, GSD out of the biggest dog show in Ohio, without a correction collar. One tiny girl can manage his lead, while I am laden with the baggage and trappings, and you all tell me you'll be knocked down if your dog sees a squirrel. I had over 20 dogs at that time that I was "training" and any one of them would have acted like Mufasa did that day. The girls could go into any of my kennels and mess with their bowls, give them food, move the bowls of food. And I did not have them all that often, not at my house. Maybe a couple of times a year. Maybe no times in a year. I prefer to do one dog at a time, and I often took Babs with me. But I also took on occasion Moofy, Hepsi, Jenna, Joy, Milla, Bear, Karma, Tori, Whitney, Dolly, Nder, Rushie, and others to the girls' house, when I was babysitting them -- between 2years and 8 years, weekends mostly. But mostly Babs. So none of them, except Babs had tons of experience with children. Ninja and Gretta basically none, but ALL of them were ok with them. All of them I could take out with me. None of them would have dragged down one of those girls or me. I put a correction collar on none of them, and almost all of them were trained to the level of a CGC. If I believe that if we use such tools on dogs, they may come to need them, then maybe reading all the stuff I do here, by its proponents is the reason.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think what puzzles folks when you talk about your dogs is that they don't seem to have a GSD temperment. Passive,meek,no prey drive, can be handed off to anyone, content with being kenneled most of the time, don't need much human interaction. Just nothing like how most others here have experienced their dogs.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

youre describing showlines in general


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

hanshund said:


> youre describing showlines in general


That is definitely untrue.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

hanshund said:


> youre describing showlines in general


Please elaborate. We used to call my presumably ASL the energizer bunny, she has through the roof prey drive, actively fights any attempt to remove her from me and has zero issues putting teeth on people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> I think what puzzles folks when you talk about your dogs is that they don't seem to have a GSD temperment. Passive,meek,no prey drive, can be handed off to anyone, content with being kenneled most of the time, don't need much human interaction. Just nothing like how most others here have experienced their dogs.


And yet one of them, that I raised for 10 months is a working K9, certified in both apprehension and detection, two times now. So if my personal dogs are not biting people, and can be handled by vet techs, groomers, friends, and little kids, they somehow aren't proper GSD temperament, when the same genetics, the same litter is out there doing the job. I can train them without mechanical aids and that makes my dogs not real. 

You know what I think, I think that the decision I made with my first GSD to NOT use a correction collar, and learned so much from him, and then had to recalibrate and learn a whole other technique for my second GSD, my first bitch, and NOT use a correction collar, I grew and at some point, some of the body language became second nature so that I am not struggling to communicate with the dogs. And I am reading dogs better and better, so I can cater my level of correction, and rewards, and how and what I do with the dogs to each individual dog. Dogs are much quicker to respond to body language than verbal commands because with each other they communicate with body language. So between what became second nature, and being able to read what each dog needs from me, I don't know it works. 

It doesn't matter what you use for a negative marker. Doesn't matter. If your training is good: timing, etc, if the training is good any clear negative marker works, including voice. And too many people fail to provide positive markers when the dogs are doing what they want them to. GSDs are not always huge chow hounds. You have to have better than that in you tool box. If you make 95% of the training (all encounters with the dog are training) positive (which is not treats), then that 5% of the time, when you lower and strengthen your voice, your dog IS going to respond. It doesn't require blunt force, not if you are setting your dog up to succeed and then praise him for it. And if you then provide the reward (even praise) for the best reactions, or even just not every time, maybe every other or every third time, so you are mixing it up for the dog, so he tries to get the response from you, works faster, and more precise. Good training is good training. There is nothing balanced about it. It should be 90-95% positive -- setting the dog up to succeed and letting him know that he did good. Tuning it by varying rewards (mostly praise). And keeping that negative tone for more serious misdemeanors and felonies. If you are always correcting the dog, then training is not going to be fun for you or the dog, you are going to get frustrated and probably give up in a lot of ways. Put the collar on, it works, good enough. But when your interactions with the dog are vastly fun, happy, good, interesting, positive, you can give that dog a negative marker when it is necessary, and that is going to be a bigger impression that increasingly severe checks with a choke chain, prong collar or e-collar. 

My sister is using an e on her boy, for a couple of months and she has found that he responds positively to the tone. So she does not have to zap. The dog is smart, it was having trouble with 5 different women's varying degrees of negative markers. So the e-collar is helping them get to that consistency even amongst a bunch of people. So perhaps what happened there was almost the opposite of a clicker, they loaded the e-collar tone with corrections -- negative markers, and by giving the tone first, the dog is able to cool his jets at the tone and never get zapped. So other people are using these collars out of dogs that come from me, other people are able to make these dogs service dogs and k9s. The dogs are strong as oxen, can pull like freight trains, and will go go go like the energizer bunnies. That pup is so smart that it knows it is not allowed to bark at the deer and squirrels, but he can squeak at them, so he starts for the window, stops and runs and gets a toy, then goes back to squeak the heck out of it to the squirrels. They're smart, strong, they have play drive, they are German Shepherd Dogs. 

But yeah, they take their cues from me and they do not eat people. (knock on wood -- the moment you say your dog will never....) They can be handled by others. Shoo, when I imported Odessa, she had a SchH1, and I never met her, and yet I was able to open the crate and let her out, and never had any problem with her. On the other hand, I pity the fool that tries to open Bear and Tinnie's Kennel if I am not there. If I am there, I can let them out and they will run up to people and sniff them, and, depending on the people, will allow them to pet them. If someone approaches their kennel, they bark convincingly. Do I know that they will bite anyone? No. Because I haven't pushed them that far. I don't want them EVER to bite anyone. 

I know what I have. I get frustrated with some of you when you say a GSD should be this or that to excuse bad behavior, to suggest a dog cannot work if it is not a working line, or if it isn't so high in prey drive that it will go after a squirrel and drag its handler off its feet, or if it is so hard in independence or self assurance, that you have to use physical corrections to ensure obedience. So if that isn't what I have going on, it just isn't a real GSD. It is unbelievable.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> I think what puzzles folks when you talk about your dogs is that they don't seem to have a GSD temperment. Passive,meek,no prey drive, can be handed off to anyone, content with being kenneled most of the time, don't need much human interaction. Just nothing like how most others here have experienced their dogs.



Kenneled most of the time. Just so we're clear, yes, I work full time, and travel to get there and back. So at minimum my dogs are going to be kenneled, about 17 hours a day, if you count sleeping. A lot of people who hear "kenneled" are thinking about dog crates. My dogs are not crated, pretty much ever. Their kennels are large, some are indoor/outdoor. Like right now I can have 4 dogs in the in/outs because I kennel most of my dogs in pairs. Then kennels are, most of them 30'+ long and between 14' wide and 20'+ wide. It is no different from leaving them in your house. They have stuff to lie on, swimming pools, wood chip boxes, dog houses, and other stuff to give them a comfortable place to rest and run together, eat and relieve themselves. I can let them sleep in my bed and do on occasion. I can take them out and take them places. They do not go every single day like most folks who have one dog probably do. 

We wouldn't be satisfied with staying in a kennel wrapped around a dwelling. Dogs are different. Especially when kenneled together. They are creatures who like routine, they are not human. They are critters, and if they are totally alone, being pack animals, they are not going to be happy in any sized kennel. But being kenneled next to or with other dogs, outside, they can amuse themselves much better than a dog that is kept crated in the house, which this site seems to this is just dandy.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> There is a vast fjord between yank and crank and cookies and cream. The general population fails to see that. The level at which I use an e-collar or prong collar is akin to a touch on the neck with your finger. Yes, I will give a strong correction in a strong situation. My current dog has received 3 of those in 18 months. I believe that those corrections were appropriate for this dog on that situation. He's a bit of a handful (see Carmspack Gus) and it's par for the course with this kind of dog.
> 
> He has been stimmed with an e-collar hundreds of times. Low level. Habit forming kind of stuff. If you saw it, you wouldn't even know it was happening. A finger touch on the neck, hundreds of times. Habits are powerful.
> 
> ...


@David Winners, I don't think anyone on this thread has said you "shouldn't" use e-collars (at least I haven't), whether at level 7 or another level, that they are BAD, that you are being abusive, or any of the thoughts you have expressed here.
There seems to be very strong clichés on this forum (the working dog savvy VS stupid companion dog owners, and other nice stuff).
I'm not responsible for those clichés or all the arguments that have annoyed you to date.
I have asked about the different ways people who said they had used an e-collar, used it. And for what purpose. That's about it 
Using it to reach a "100% cure of wildlife-chasing-drive" as Wolfy put it, or to deter your dog from snakes, or as a mild pressure tool to proof recall, etc. These ARE different approaches and uses.
I am not raising questions because I'm a stupid pet-companion-dog-owner who has only walked through "boring neighborhoods" her whole life, I do so to understand how much control different people think they should have on their dogs in different contexts, and how they go about it, since yes, people do have different views on so-called "obedience", and how they expect their dogs to behave. And what means they see fit to use at what point.
I recently heard about very heavy, binary conditioning approaches (with both e-collar and clicker) being used on puppies by some owners, where people seemingly condition their pups like lab animals you can never intuitively communicate with, like there's no bond involved whatsoever. So of course when coming across a thread about 100% obedience, I'll also be reflecting on possible recent social trends, and how the "audience" as you put it, may use the tools we are talking about.

I do not need to have been in Afghanistan to perfectly understand what you are saying, though, David.
Can't remember any message you posted on this forum that I haven't understood every word of. I do NOT feel offended about you using e-collars at all.
I may feel a bit annoyed at times by how some folks like to systematically apply their clichés and put you in a box as soon as you question anything though.
Because I think discussions tend to be much more interesting when people are honest and in an open state of mind, rather than answering any question with the same condescending attitude all the time, especially when there's nothing that mysterious to their approach.
But that's OK 
I'll keep discussing when it looks like someone actually wants to discuss. Not super frequent on here, but it happens sometimes.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

If threads are not meant to be open for discussion though (or if there are "banned" topics, like e-collar or else), please let me know and I'll just stop posting and keep thoughts to myself


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> @David Winners, I don't think anyone on this thread has said you "shouldn't" use e-collars (at least I haven't), whether at level 7 or another level, that they are BAD, that you are being abusive, or any of the thoughts you have expressed here.
> There seems to be very strong clichés on this forum (the working dog savvy VS stupid companion dog owners, and other nice stuff).
> I'm not responsible for those clichés or all the arguments that have annoyed you to date.
> I have asked about the different ways people who said they had used an e-collar, used it. And for what purpose. That's about it
> ...


Thank you, and I apologize if I come of condescending as that is not me.

My use of the e-collar starts with finding the working level of the dog. That working level is such that the dog just barely feels it. I'm looking for a tiny flick of the ear, a look at the ground, a pause in movement, anything that indicates the dog can feel it. This level usually goes down by a number or two after a couple sessions.

I use all known commands, taught through luring or capturing.
I start with recall.
Recall and stim simultaneous. As soon as the dog turns towards me and takes a couple steps, stim stops, mark and reward.

Then lose leash walking with 3 taps before a turn. No command. No reward.

Then down with command and stim simultaneous, stim turns off and mark/reward when the down is complete.

This goes on for a couple weeks with increasing stim duration on the recall. You are looking for 100% compliance without raising the level. The dog is always set up for success. If you think they may blow off a recall, have a long line on them and reel them in with stim until they get close.

This period conditions the dog to the rules of the collar. This build trust in the communication and removes confusion. It's black and white.

Then you add a small pause between the command and stim. Now you are showing the dog that they can beat the stim. This is also when you can use the collar for punishment if they refuse a command, the same as a verbal correction. If the distraction is small, a small jump in level. If it is large, a larger jump. I often hold the stim and turn the dial until the dog complies, then release. This should be very infrequent.

All this builds habits. Over time, with a few successful punishments, the dog understands that the only option is compliance.

It is up to the owner to ensure that the dog leads a wonderful life, full of adventure and rewards. It is important that the dog has an outlet for their natural drives and instincts. If there is balance between fun and rules, everyone wins.

The training advantage of an e-collar is range, the ability to apply continuous stim and the vibrate/tone button. I pair the vibrate with recall so I can recall the dog in situations where they can't hear me.

That's basically it in a nutshell.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

^^^Now heres some great conversation^^^ No '_side' _or the other so to speak needs to try and infer moral superiority or being 'better'. As they say 'different strokes for different folks!' _*Do what works for you and your dog/s in your situation*_ to build a great relationship, mutual trust and respect to end up with a dog you can do whatever it is you want with whether that means daily fetch and jogs through a quiet neighborhood, achieving top points in sport, or taking down terrorists in a foreign country. I enjoy hearing how people have accomplished all of these things with a wide view of techniques and perspectives -- preferably from more experienced people regardless of their use or non-use of 'training tools'.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Thank you, and I apologize if I come of condescending as that is not me.


Well you do not, actually 
It's a more community thing. Except for the leisure/photos threads, this "sacred working dog experts VS stupid-inexperienced-uneducated-pet-fur baby (and more interesting adjectives) dog owners" fake division has surfaced in about every thread I've been following since I came here.
I'm sorry, but there's no such thing. Reality is much more diverse and interesting than this. Assuming this and reacting to every topic from that perspective doesn't sound very beneficial to me, since a forum is supposed to be a place where people basically come to share. If you're going to dismiss anyone who hasn't had a certain number of years of exp. (how much do you need? 15, 40 ?) + countless official titles, why call it a forum?
I could quote a good dozen posts to show what I'm talking about, but that would be pointless.
On a side note, years are not everything.

As far as I'm concerned, I have never done the type of e-collar training you just described, and still I have understood every word you wrote here. 
So yes, it is possible to chat with less experienced people, or people who simply have a completely different experience, lifestyle, etc.
Thanks for sharing!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Or maybe rename it "EXPERT GSD TRAINERS WITH +15 YEARS OF EXP AND A FULL PORTFOLIO ONLY, CONFIDENTIAL FORUM (served with a little bit of photos on the side)"
I guess that would be a bit long for a forum title, though. Just kidding. You all have a nice day, evening, or whatever time it is in your time zone ;-)


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chloé&Buck said:


> If threads are not meant to be open for discussion though (or if there are "banned" topics, like e-collar or else), please let me know and I'll just stop posting and keep thoughts to myself


It's not a you thing. Or even an equipment thing. It's that we have a community of exceptionally passionate people who all have very different views and opinions. It makes us behave like a huge dysfunctional family at a thanksgiving dinner! Lol.

I have worked dogs that were trained with e collars, I had even used them on those dogs. Shadow was the first of my dogs that I thought would benefit from it and I screwed it up, because I am a genius at screwing things up. Not in a bad way, I didn't scare or hurt her, I just taught her the wrong thing. 
I wanted to be able to let her run loose and she is a dedicated hunter with crazy prey drive. I thought with the e collar she could be taught to come off a track or chase. But I started with the recall, as directed. No one could have predicted that she would grasp the concept in one or two reps, and I would never have imagined the connection she would make from that. 
Instead of a dog that can run loose with the e collar I created a dog that won't leave my side with the e collar! It doesn't bother her, she just thinks that is what it means. I was never able to unteach it. David probably could have figured it out, I can't.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

David Winners said:


> I've said before that this isn't really a good forum for me because my perspective is so askew to the average participant. I'm not looking down on anyone. I have no use for making people feel inferior or bad about themselves in any way. It's just hard for me to have honest conversation about things like this topic when it breaks down like it always does.


I would say the opposite. Given the shift here over the years from knowledgeable breeders, trainers and competitors lifting up newbies who were willing to _listen and learn _to the current state where people push back against the knowledgeable folks and want to argue the merits of this or that based on their limited experience. Or folks who have bred hundreds of pups and still don't know how silly they sound when they make X,Y, Z statement based on their limited experience in anything other than producing pups.  

We _need _people like you. This is a good forum for you, even if it does feel like you're losing the battle. Keep preaching the truth and keep sharing your knowledge. Your integrity and experience will lead the way for people who want to listen and there are many people here who want to listen. They might not post a lot (or at all), but they are reading and learning. And that is because of you and the handful of other members who who stuck around and continue to fight the good fight.
Sheilah


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> It's not a you thing. Or even an equipment thing. It's that we have a community of exceptionally passionate people who all have very different views and opinions. It makes us behave like a huge dysfunctional family at a thanksgiving dinner! Lol.
> 
> I have worked dogs that were trained with e collars, I had even used them on those dogs. Shadow was the first of my dogs that I thought would benefit from it and I screwed it up, because I am a genius at screwing things up. Not in a bad way, I didn't scare or hurt her, I just taught her the wrong thing.
> I wanted to be able to let her run loose and she is a dedicated hunter with crazy prey drive. I thought with the e collar she could be taught to come off a track or chase. But I started with the recall, as directed. No one could have predicted that she would grasp the concept in one or two reps, and I would never have imagined the connection she would make from that.
> Instead of a dog that can run loose with the e collar I created a dog that won't leave my side with the e collar! It doesn't bother her, she just thinks that is what it means. I was never able to unteach it. David probably could have figured it out, I can't.


Ah! Interesting, thanks 
So stuff I thought could happen can actually happen.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Ah! Interesting, thanks
> So stuff I thought could happen can actually happen.


Yes and no. I did NOT have access to work with a trainer and although Lou tried desperately to help it is difficult to work with a dog you don't have eyes on. I am NOT a trainer, I am just a dummy with a dog. Shadow is an exceptionally challenging dog, with multiple and layered problems. Not the least of which is poor genetics. A skilled trainer would have been a huge help to me. Skilled trainers don't generally take on dogs like her, and online help is fantastic(and appreciated) but no substitute for hands on.
We also aren't able to determine why I could un-train it, or layer over it. Shadow is weird and does things not generally done by dogs.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

sitstay said:


> I would say the opposite. Given the shift here over the years from knowledgeable breeders, trainers and competitors lifting up newbies who were willing to _listen and learn _to the current state where people push back against the knowledgeable folks and want to argue the merits of this or that based on their limited experience. Or folks who have bred hundreds of pups and still don't know how silly they sound when they make X,Y, Z statement based on their limited experience in anything other than producing pups.


See, here we go again 😕
That's precisely what I was talking about just before. What is the purpose of this?
More lines of "newbie" despise and now including some stuff about breeders and the last letters of the alphabet. Sincerely I have no idea what you are talking about.
The only thing I am pushing against right now is a comfy pillow on my couch.
Apparently David had time to answer the forum newbie I am. And that answer got quite a few likes 
So what's wrong with that? What's next, youth isn't what it used to be, seasons don't count for anything anymore?
What about focusing on here and now 
You know, showing support for someone you like doesn't necessarily require spitting on other people.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Yes and no. I did NOT have access to work with a trainer and although Lou tried desperately to help it is difficult to work with a dog you don't have eyes on. I am NOT a trainer, I am just a dummy with a dog. Shadow is an exceptionally challenging dog, with multiple and layered problems. Not the least of which is poor genetics. A skilled trainer would have been a huge help to me. Skilled trainers don't generally take on dogs like her, and online help is fantastic(and appreciated) but no substitute for hands on.
> We also aren't able to determine why I could un-train it, or layer over it. Shadow is weird and does things not generally done by dogs.


Yep, got it! Of course online advice is never going to replace hands on


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> We also aren't able to determine why I could un-train it, or layer over it. Shadow is weird and does things not generally done by dogs.


Correction- Should be could NOT un-train


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Correction- Should be could NOT un-train


My brain had inferred that correctly. Lol


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Chloé&Buck said:


> See, here we go again 😕
> That's precisely what I was talking about just before. What is the purpose of this?
> More lines of "newbie" despise and now including some stuff about breeders and the last letters of the alphabet. Sincerely I have no idea what you are talking about.
> The only thing I am pushing against right now is a comfy pillow on my couch.
> ...


Why would you think I was directing anything at you? I wasn't. But it does serve to show that people get their tail fuzzed up over just about anything. 

My particular comment was directed at the notion that we have already lost so many knowledgeable people here, and moistly because they got tired of what felt like beating their head against a brick wall. It would be a huge loss to this forum to lose another one.

Can we please just give these people the chance to respond without constantly challenging them? 
Sheilah


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

sitstay said:


> Why would you think I was directing anything at you? I wasn't. But it does serve to show that people get their tail fuzzed up over just about anything.
> 
> My particular comment was directed at the notion that we have already lost so many knowledgeable people here, and moistly because they got tired of what felt like beating their head against a brick wall. It would be a huge loss to this forum to lose another one.
> 
> ...


Or maybe we let David or other "knowledgable folks" speak for themselves?
Actually I didn't think you were directing anything at me. That's precisely what I was talking about - and in clear enough terms IMO - when I said before there were very strong clichés constantly surfacing on this forum.
There will always be posts that aren't directly addressed to anyone but are there just to fuel division.
I'm sorry you have lost knowledgeable folks before, but I wasn't there to see.
Again, here and now.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I have trouble seeing myself or any other newbie as a brick wall against which David would be beating his head against to be honest.
You know... most newbies and forum members actually, very rarely post. The number of posts I have actively taken part in is very small.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I have trouble seeing myself or any other newbie as a brick wall against which David would be beating his head against to be honest.
> You know... most newbies and forum members actually, very rarely post. The number of posts I have actively taken part in is very small.


Again, it isn't about you. It is an overall trend that over time has driven off a lot of knowledgeable people. And that is a shame for ALL of us.
Sheilah


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@sitstay, whether or not I'm part of the "newbies" doesn't matter at all, actually.
But can you see how putting people in boxes like that could be an issue and could impact the overall feeling of a forum, in particular when you just recently registered? If you don't, well, there's not much more I can say about it


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Yes and no. I did NOT have access to work with a trainer and although Lou tried desperately to help it is difficult to work with a dog you don't have eyes on. I am NOT a trainer, I am just a dummy with a dog. Shadow is an exceptionally challenging dog, with multiple and layered problems. Not the least of which is poor genetics. A skilled trainer would have been a huge help to me. Skilled trainers don't generally take on dogs like her, and online help is fantastic(and appreciated) but no substitute for hands on.
> We also aren't able to determine why I could un-train it, or layer over it. Shadow is weird and does things not generally done by dogs.


Shadow is too smart for cheap parlor tricks. Probably better off sitting her down at the kitchen table and explaining what you want.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Chloe&Buck nobody said anything derogatory. Perhaps an interpreter is needed besides Google translate
Imagine for a moment that someone admired the relationship you have with your dogs and asked you for advice. You spend quite a while explaining this is what you do and why.You sincerely try to help. Then the person gives you 32 reasons that what you do and why are wrong, ridiculous,couldn't possibly help, etc.It would be a bit frustrating. When it happens often it's Very frustrating.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> Then the person gives you 32 reasons that what you do and why are wrong, ridiculous,couldn't possibly help, etc.It would be a bit frustrating. When it happens often it's Very frustrating.


When/where did this happen? (I don't use Google translate)


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Chloé&Buck said:


> @sitstay, whether or not I'm part of the "newbies" doesn't matter at all, actually.
> But can you see how putting people in boxes like that could be an issue and could impact the overall feeling of a forum, in particular when you just recently registered? If you don't, well, there's not much more I can say about it


I have been here since 2002.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

sitstay said:


> I have been here since 2002.
> Sheilah


Sorry. I have been here is 2003.
Sheilah


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

sitstay said:


> I have been here since 2002.
> Sheilah





sitstay said:


> I have been here since 2002.
> Sheilah


OK Sheila, good! Hope you'll be there for a lot more years then


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It happens often. There's 3 threads going on right now where the OPs are being given honest answers to their questions but won't accept them. No I will not call them out publicly. Hopefully after thinking it over the OPs will make good decisions for their dogs.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

@Chloé&Buck You are just proving Sheila's point with your posts right now. Everyone is trying to pacify you and it's still not good enough...


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> It happens often. There's 3 threads going on right now where the OPs are being given honest answers to their questions but won't accept them. No I will not call them out publicly. Hopefully after thinking it over the OPs will make good decisions for their dogs.


OK, maybe I'm not following enough treads to actually notice that brick wall.
But anyway, I wish people didn't come to a thread feeling "annoyed in advance" for stuff that hasn't been said.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

sitstay said:


> I would say the opposite. Given the shift here over the years from knowledgeable breeders, trainers and competitors lifting up newbies who were willing to _listen and learn _to the current state where people push back against the knowledgeable folks and want to argue the merits of this or that based on their limited experience. Or folks who have bred hundreds of pups and still don't know how silly they sound when they make X,Y, Z statement based on their limited experience in anything other than producing pups.
> 
> We _need _people like you. This is a good forum for you, even if it does feel like you're losing the battle. Keep preaching the truth and keep sharing your knowledge. Your integrity and experience will lead the way for people who want to listen and there are many people here who want to listen. They might not post a lot (or at all), but they are reading and learning. And that is because of you and the handful of other members who who stuck around and continue to fight the good fight.
> Sheilah


The main problem I have is when people state things as fact. There is a huge difference between saying "in my experience" and saying "this is the way it is."

Example: resource guarding. I see all kinds of "factual, this is how you do it" posts that will get someone hurt with the wrong dog. Just because that person has never had that kind of dog, in the 6 dogs they have trained, that dog doesn't exist, so go ahead and stick you head down and eat out of the bowl with the dog. Everything will be fine. The dog will get used to it.

Possession
Handler aggression
Nerves
Equipment
Corrections
Basically, my GSD acts like a lab so they all do stuff.

I truly appreciate your encouragement. I'm not going anywhere. It's just tough for me to enter some conversations because I know how it's going to go. I don't want to be frustrated or to sound like I'm talking down to people. I'm a very forward person. "That was stupid" is something I tell people. I've trained a lot of soldiers and a lot of dogs and that has removed most of my filter. I have to have a filter here because I don't want to run people off. I just want to help them.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sometimes they are annoyed in advance. Sometimes I am too.I'll write a response to get it out of my system, then erase it Then revisit it later when I'm feeling neutral.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> Sometimes they are annoyed in advance. Sometimes I am too.I'll write a response to get it out of my system, then erase it Then revisit it later when I'm feeling neutral.


If only you all knew how many posts I erase... See that, I just erased another. And another.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I've trained a lot of soldiers and a lot of dogs and that has removed most of my filter. I have to have a filter here because I don't want to run people off.


I personally wish there were much less filters involved 
In the very few threads I've been taking part in, I've been mostly begging for a real, honest conversation.
What would "run me off" would be a forum where most folks keep their mouths shut out of boredom or for fear of being instantly disliked for what they expressed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Here's the thing. I don't have a problem with people using correction collars, just the premise that you must use them or you have some kind of defective sissy dogs. 

When the breed was formed, the author of the breed had a picture of a nasty prong-ish looking thing in his training chapter. Of course there were no e-collars back then. But the breed is in the herding group because it was created for herding sheep. Now, they've been using e-collars for hunting dogs, particularly because they want the dog to work free. A herding dog must work free, so there is no way they could use that prong-thing while the dog is working the sheep, even learning to work the sheep. And in Germany, they actually moved the sheep down busy roads to get from one field to another, and that dog had to keep the sheep out of traffic and out of the crops. Without a prong collar or e-collar. Shepherds used whistling and hand signals. 

And the herding dog, at least the GSD had to work with its owner, be high drive, high energy, willing to engage with humans or animal predators, and if it attacked sheep or other farm critters, it would most likely be shot. Of course a shepherd will work with his dogs all day every day, so they have time on their hands. My thing is, these dogs are that good, they are that willing to work with humans, they are that intelligent, and they have instincts and drives. They can be trained without correction collars if something has not been done to the breed to make them worse temperament-wise than they were. I don't think so. Not all of them. If working-line dogs with which I do not have experience are not capable to be trained without such aides because their temperament has been changed since the inception of the breed, then that is too bad. Otherwise, maybe folks today cannot work with their dogs to the extent that the shepherds of old were able to, and thus they need the aides to get them where they want to go with less actual work and time.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> The main problem I have is when people state things as fact. There is a huge difference between saying "in my experience" and saying "this is the way it is."
> 
> Example: resource guarding. I see all kinds of "factual, this is how you do it" posts that will get someone hurt with the wrong dog. Just because that person has never had that kind of dog, in the 6 dogs they have trained, that dog doesn't exist, so go ahead and stick you head down and eat out of the bowl with the dog. Everything will be fine. The dog will get used to it.
> 
> ...


Forgetting that I’m not surrounded by sailors has got him in trouble occasionally. One thing about online interaction is things come can come off differently in writing than in person because a lot of nuance is most.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> Here's the thing. I don't have a problem with people using correction collars, just the premise that you must use them or you have some kind of defective sissy dogs.
> 
> When the breed was formed, the author of the breed had a picture of a nasty prong-ish looking thing in his training chapter. Of course there were no e-collars back then. But the breed is in the herding group because it was created for herding sheep. Now, they've been using e-collars for hunting dogs, particularly because they want the dog to work free. A herding dog must work free, so there is no way they could use that prong-thing while the dog is working the sheep, even learning to work the sheep. And in Germany, they actually moved the sheep down busy roads to get from one field to another, and that dog had to keep the sheep out of traffic and out of the crops. Without a prong collar or e-collar. Shepherds used whistling and hand signals.
> 
> And the herding dog, at least the GSD had to work with its owner, be high drive, high energy, willing to engage with humans or animal predators, and if it attacked sheep or other farm critters, it would most likely be shot. Of course a shepherd will work with his dogs all day every day, so they have time on their hands. My thing is, these dogs are that good, they are that willing to work with humans, they are that intelligent, and they have instincts and drives. They can be trained without correction collars if something has not been done to the breed to make them worse temperament-wise than they were. I don't think so. Not all of them. If working-line dogs with which I do not have experience are not capable to be trained without such aides because their temperament has been changed since the inception of the breed, then that is too bad. Otherwise, maybe folks today cannot work with their dogs to the extent that the shepherds of old were able to, and thus they need the aides to get them where they want to go with less actual work and time.


Do you believe that dogs were trained to herd and for protection without corrections?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just because in the past there were no Ecollars and prongs, it doesn't mean that the trainers from that time were gentle. Maybe they used methods and tools we don't have a clue about


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> And in Germany, they actually moved the sheep down busy roads to get from one field to another, and that dog had to keep the sheep out of traffic and out of the crops. Without a prong collar or e-collar. Shepherds used whistling and hand signals.


I promise you that while learning the whistles and hand signals, there were training tools applied that you would not agree with. Before a dog was worked on 300 sheep, it was started on just a few. And they got clocked in the face hard with the shepherd's crook when they got too strong. They had things thrown at them to back up a voice command.

And today? E collars are used to back up whistles and hand signals that some dogs are willing to blow off. 

The instinct to work work is there, but it has to be shaped. Otherwise you end up with a dog that just runs around and chases sheep because it is hard wired to like that. 

I put herding titles on Tanner. I know what I am talking about. The training and proofing is not rainbows and ponies.
Sheilah


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

sitstay said:


> The training and proofing is not rainbows and ponies.
> Sheilah


Now that made me laugh!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

sitstay said:


> I promise you that while learning the whistles and hand signals, there were training tools applied that you would not agree with. Before a dog was worked on 300 sheep, it was started on just a few. And they got clocked in the face hard with the shepherd's crook when they got too strong. They had things thrown at them to back up a voice command.
> 
> And today? E collars are used to back up whistles and hand signals that some dogs are willing to blow off.
> 
> ...


The videos of Max are proof enough for anyone that herding isn’t rainbows and ponies. No e collar in sight. A nice dog though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I put Babs on sheep. But we did not pursue a title, nor did we work sheep. But she was very willing to work with me on the sheep -- and that day it was rainbows and ponies. In fact the shepherd said praise any interest at all, she would protect her sheep. Only she never had to correct my dog. She gave her the herding instinct certificate and said that she was really good because she was looking to me to tell her what to do, and she was moving the sheep. It was interesting, but certainly doesn't give me any herding experience. I saw a 3 or 4 month old pup guarding the food bucket from the goats, and that was pretty much rainbows and ponies too, though people do not post anything controversial because that goes viral because people think dogs are little human children and whatever you do with them is cruel.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I put Babs on sheep. But we did not pursue a title, nor did we work sheep. But she was very willing to work with me on the sheep -- and that day it was rainbows and ponies. In fact the shepherd said praise any interest at all, she would protect her sheep. Only she never had to correct my dog. She gave her the herding instinct certificate and said that she was really good because she was looking to me to tell her what to do, and she was moving the sheep. It was interesting, but certainly doesn't give me any herding experience. I saw a 3 or 4 month old pup guarding the food bucket from the goats, and that was pretty much rainbows and ponies too, though people do not post anything controversial because that goes viral because people think dogs are little human children and whatever you do with them is cruel.


You don't have to "praise for any interest" in a dog that wants to work. They are so interested in the sheep that they don't look at the handler twice. With a really strong dog, your job is to keep them off the sheep. They couldn't care less about praise. The work is the praise.










Here is Tanner at 11 months, getting the last Q leg for his Jr. Ranch Dog title. He went on to title in Ranch Dog when he was a little older. He always worked with that much focus. Praise was the farthest thing from his mind. 

If anything, he was a little too strong. However, once he graduated to bigger flocks, he settled down and was much less grippy. I never had him officially tested. I put him on sheep when he was seven months old and went from there. 
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sitstay said:


> You don't have to "praise for any interest" in a dog that wants to work. They are so interested in the sheep that they don't look at the handler twice. With a really strong dog, your job is to keep them off the sheep. They couldn't care less about praise. The work is the praise.
> 
> View attachment 580555
> 
> ...


Good for you. 

We went out to have fun and had fun. It was interesting to see what my girl made of the sheep. I have no money, nor is there really any place around here (in the country) where there are clubs working sheep dogs with sheep. I looked into it briefly. But gave it up quickly. It was more fun to flush people out of the shrubbery at work with Babs, and escort them to the gate. When I was there with the sheep, I took direction from the lady with the sheep. That was her gig. She did not know me or my dog, and I didn't know sheep so I listened to her.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

sitstay said:


> You don't have to "praise for any interest" in a dog that wants to work. They are so interested in the sheep that they don't look at the handler twice. With a really strong dog, your job is to keep them off the sheep. They couldn't care less about praise. The work is the praise.
> 
> View attachment 580555
> 
> ...


I thought about trying Cion with sheep. With all the disaster images that flashed in my mind and not knowing of a trainer I wanted to work with put an end to that.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

selzer said:


> Here's the thing. I don't have a problem with people using correction collars, just the premise that you must use them or you have some kind of defective sissy dogs.


Wasnt your premise in another topic that if you need a prong or ecollar to manage a dog "then you have no business owning the dog" ?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

lots of stories here about dogs trained to high levels of reliability with nothing more than voice inflection and cookies. how about some videos in places other than the backyard ?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

hanshund said:


> Wasnt your premise in another topic that if you need a prong or ecollar to manage a dog "then you have no business owning the dog" ?


I still think that. For one thing these correction collars are for training, not management. It is a difference. If you like a prong collar because it makes walking the dog more pleasurable because he isn't pulling the entire time, that's up to you; but if that prong fails (and they do), and you can't chase the dog down and grab it and stop it before it bites someone or gets run over by a car (given you aren't 100% reliable on recall, of course), then you are a liability to the breed and shouldn't be owning the dog. Dogs should not wear a training/correction collar 24/7. If you cannot manage the dog without the collar, how do you get the collar on the dog? Really, we need to be able to "manage" our dogs with no collar on. We do not need for them to run a marathon in heel position without collar or lead, but we need to be able to keep them safe and to keep others safe from them. If we cannot do that without a collar then we haven't any business owning the dog given we have had a reasonable opportunity to gain the bond that gives us that ability to manage the dog. I mean, if you got a rescue dog on Friday and do not feel comfortable taking him to the vet on Monday without a training collar, that's fine. If you are still using a training collar in a year that is still fine, but if you still NEED that collar in order for the dog to be managed (safe to have out in public), you really have no business owning the dog. 

I know I am going to take guff for this, because there are a lot of older folks that don't feel comfortable taking the dog anywhere without a prong. It gives them an edge, the dog doesn't mind it, and there is peace of mind. I don't think we should be owning dogs we cannot manage. How do you stop a dog from doing serious damage if you cannot manage the dog? Gates get left open, dogs go over or under them. If that collar is not on the dog a bad situation can be tragic if you have no control over the dog without the collar. The collar may be a crutch, but you can still hobble along without your crutch if necessary. If not, then it is the wrong kind of dog for you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

hanshund said:


> lots of stories here about dogs trained to high levels of reliability with nothing more than voice inflection and cookies. how about some videos in places other than the backyard ?


LOL, it you people with correction collars that are using all the cookies. But I don't take videos, I have a flip phone and a crappy computer that dies every time it hiccups. But what would that prove anyway? That the dog will recall without a collar on? It certainly does not prove the dog was trained by the videotaper, nor does it prove the dog was not trained with the aid. Nor does it prove that the dog came every single time, only that you managed to do it once and capture it on film. Either you believe it or not. If you can't believe that someone can have a reliable recall without a collar, I suppose you're not there with or without the collar. Better get some better cookies.

Of course, if you have gotten a CD on a dog, then the dog has to reliably recall off lead away from the back yard at least 3 separate times in the ring. And most of us do not bother to pay the money to trial if we haven't practiced it to the point of reliability.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

hanshund said:


> Wasnt your premise in another topic that if you need a prong or ecollar to manage a dog "then you have no business owning the dog" ?


Wouldn't you stand behind that premise too? I would, 100%! The key elements in that statement get back to the original topic of the thread! Specifically "need" in order to "manage". Tools don't train a dog, repetition does. Tools can help manage, but training is what matters long term!

Again, the original intent of this thread is/was that there is no single method without which a dog, any dog, can't be trained for almost anything!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> Wouldn't you stand behind that premise too? I would, 100%! The key elements in that statement get back to the original topic of the thread! Specifically "need" in order to "manage". Tools don't train a dog, repetition does. Tools can help manage, but training is what matters long term!
> 
> Again, the original intent of this thread is/was that there is no single method without which a dog, any dog, can't be trained for almost anything!


We need a like with a question mark, because I am still trying to figure out that last statement -- is that there is no single method without which a dog can't be trained for almost anything.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> We need a like with a question mark, because I am still trying to figure out that last statement -- is that there is no single method without which a dog can't be trained for almost anything.


If you go back to my initial post, you'll see where I said exactly that! Trainers, specifically online and other prolific trainers, are continually asserting that 100% off leash obedience can only be achieved with an ecollar. My assertion is/was (a) that there is no such thing as 100% with any method, and (b) that there is nothing I have ever encountered that can "only" be taught one way.

As the old country saying goes, "there's more than one way to skin a cat!"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have experienced higher reliability without using e-collars, than those who have trained dogs from the same lines with the e-collars. To me this suggests that it is not the tool but the trainer that still has to employ the basics of training regardless of what form of negative marker they employ. And a good trainer with an e-collar will experience higher reliability than a less good/experienced trainer without one. I don't think it is the tool, but the trainer. I think the method needs to fit the dog and the trainer.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

A friend of mine went to try her Spanish water dog on sheep the other week. 
My friend's dog was apparently one of the most agressive that day. (Biting and flying through the air like a flag attached to sheep a few times).
The shepherd used a whip to moderate him. Apparently it was quite hard as the dog was in a trance, and, confused by the whip, started calling the shepherd names 😂
But anyway, after a few reps, he was already getting much better.
At the end of the day, the shepherd said he was a "good little dog", and that he preferred a dog that's too tenacious than the reverse.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> If you go back to my initial post, you'll see where I said exactly that! Trainers, specifically online and other prolific trainers, are continually asserting that 100% off leash obedience can only be achieved with an ecollar. My assertion is/was (a) that there is no such thing as 100% with any method, and (b) that there is nothing I have ever encountered that can "only" be taught one way.
> 
> As the old country saying goes, "there's more than one way to skin a cat!"


Ah, I can see what was your starting thought now. I was actually about to ask you yesterday and forgot.
So "100% obedience" as a "package" and commercial claim right?
What kind of trainers are you talking about, those guys who train family dogs?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@tim_s_adams, I guess the question is more SHOULD 100% obedience be attained and what for.

I can see a few pitfalls with that training trend you're talking about:

a) By advertising “100% obedience” to the public and waving it like a flag, those trainers may be encouraging/vulgarizing quite unhealthy expectations amongst dog owners… some kind of obedience/control obsession that may, when it becomes a social trend, obscure the most essential and beautiful part of living with dogs, which is mutual trust and symbiosis.
To me, the very FIRST thing a trainer should educate people about and advocate for isn’t obedience. It’s how to fulfill your specific dog’s needs and build a great bond.
And only then, maybe, can we start talking about obedience.

So, though e-collars are still a rarity where I live, when I hear about a terrier puppy being taken to the park with an e-collar/clicker combo, I can only fall off my chair and wonder if common sense is starting to get lost to the profit of some obsessive-heavy-conditioning trend.
I attended a dog training seminary a while ago. A couple was there with a young beagle/scenthound bitch and, long story short, the problem was she kept running away.
Some trainers who were attending suggested an e-collar, which isn’t inherently bad, as they were focusing on solving the owners’ problem.
BUT, no one ever asked what they were actually DOING with that dog to fulfill those mad nose skills of hers.

I chatted a bit with the lady during the coffee break, and it had never actually occurred to her that she could develop some structured tracking activities to work with her dog’s skills in a healthy way. As it turns out, that dog was also not getting half of the exercise she needed, and was starting to get fat.
See what I mean? Solving your client’s problems is good, but maybe start with the basics?
To me, professional trainers who work with families should strive for fairness, try to encourage people to do their homework as much as possible, and suggest some ideas to fulfill the dog’s needs, before they even start suggesting ways of “stopping stuff”.
When you think about it, stopping stuff, any kind of stuff, is one of the most popular demands, which is quite revealing per se. What if you STARTED stuff before you try to stop stuff? Like get a proper life for your dog?

In other words, I think it should be fulfilled needs > develop that bond to the max > then maybe, if you still need it, resort to more technical fine-tuning tools. In that order.
On the other hand… I also understand that trainers have to fulfill client’s demand, especially if they ask for incredible amounts of money (even family oriented trainers sound pretty expensive in the US from what I’ve read here).
And don’t get me wrong here, it’s not just an “ethics” or philosophical take, it’s about the whole beauty of learning and growing your skills. What skills that lady with the scenthound is going to gain from just stopping her dog from running away and not change a thing to what she does aside from that?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

b) (which is a side effect of a) As more tools and techniques get exposed through social media, more people start "experimenting" with them in more or less successful ways, then get offended that other people may have achieved similar results through a different path, or may just not even desire to achieve the said results. And I'm not talking e-collar only here, I'm talking any tool/technique that somewhat "go viral".
Can't tell you how much I wish we could talk about dog training without constantly giving in to clichés.

Disclaimer: all of this coming from a young dog lover, with a lot of passion but not much experience. I do make mistakes with my dogs, probably a lot, even more than I can detect. lol
For the time being I prefer to make my mistakes the good old way, so that I can at least keep track of my own BS and flaws.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Chloé&Buck said:


> b) (which is a side effect of a) As more tools and techniques get exposed through social media, more people start "experimenting" with them in more or less successful ways, then get offended that other people may have achieved similar results through a different path, or may just not even desire to achieve the said results. And I'm not talking e-collar only here, I'm talking any tool/technique that somewhat "go viral".
> Can't tell you how much I wish we could talk about dog training without constantly giving in to clichés.
> 
> Disclaimer: all of this coming from a young dog lover, with a lot of passion but not much experience. I do make mistakes with my dogs, probably a lot, even more than I can detect. lol
> For the time being I prefer to make my mistakes the good old way, so that I can at least keep track of my own BS and flaws.


You keep talking about these 'cliches' where pro-training tool people tell others that they basically suck and don't know what they are talking about because they won't use training tools.

-I don't typically see this but I do see how it can be taken this way often.

How about the 'cliches' where someone wants to know about or talks about training tools and the non-training tool people come in to exaggerate and imply that they are 'abusive' or these people basically suck because they shouldn't need to ZAP or yank and crank on there dog with tools ??

-I actually see this more often but I brush it off and try to assume it wasn't meant this way or ignore it if I know it was

There is always another side to the story and we often tend to see only that which aligns with a certain narrative bias or perhaps a 'cliche'.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@REEHGE sorry for using the word "cliche" too many times 😅
What I mean is I wish people could talk without having to imply superiority as someone else mentioned before. 
I agree with what you just said, all true  
I definitely don't think there should be taboos on tools, because then how would people find information and know who to talk to?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> Wouldn't you stand behind that premise too? I would, 100%! The key elements in that statement get back to the original topic of the thread! Specifically "need" in order to "manage". Tools don't train a dog, repetition does. Tools can help manage, but training is what matters long term!
> 
> Again, the original intent of this thread is/was that there is no single method without which a dog, any dog, can't be trained for almost anything!


I don’t agree. I think a lot of tools are used for managing dogs. Leashes, collars, crates, kennels, fences, walls, harnesses. All different things used to manage and control dogs. I think first and foremost, as long as you keep your dog safe, under control, and stop them from being a menace using techniques that are safe and fair to the dog then you are fine. There’s this I never use those so I’m better than you and you don’t deserve a dog mentality that comes from that statement. I don’t think everyone needs to live with their dog like me. I don’t think everyone needs to train their dogs like me. I don’t think doing it differently necessarily makes anyone better or worse than me. That is exactly what that statement comes off as.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's the way of the world now. Every opinion bears the same weight. It doesn't matter that literally everyone that is on the negative side of these discussions lacks any experience working dogs at a high level. They feel a way, therefore they are right.

Take the old herding dogs didn't need e-collars discussion which was ignored. Those dogs were trained with compulsion. Different tools, yes, but corrections, escape/avoidance, was a huge part of training. Look up old SCH or training videos. Read the books from that time. 

No, they didn't have e-collars to use. They didn't have cell phones, YouTube, go pro cameras or personal computers either. I guarantee that if you took an e-collar back in time, those trainers of yore would be all over it.

A friend sent a message today that their dog was starting to resource guard at 14 months. Typical for this kind of dog. They handled it correctly with a serious correction. Dog was fine after. This is not a genetic issue but a pushy, butthead one. Has this happened at 12 weeks, it would be a different story and approach. At 3 years old, without curbing this now, it could be serious.

I bring this up because had that person posted here, they would have gotten a lot of advice from people who absolutely "know" how to fix this problem, though they have never had a high drive, pushy working dog. They would argue that they never had these problems in the 40 years they have had GSDs, must be handler created, relationship issues etc. They have never experienced an adult GSD that will literally fight you for a ball, so they don't exist. Because they have never had this problem, they are obviously just a better trainer than anyone who has had this problem.

I encourage everyone to have an opinion, share that opinion, ask questions, give their experience with particular situations. I also encourage everyone to consider that some dogs are different than others. I was an experienced and successful trainer for 20 years before I was a military handler. It was a steep learning curve for me to learn how to handle those dogs. Then I got hired as a trainer and went through it all again.

There is a vast array of temperament varieties in the GSD breed. Some are more challenging than others, some are pointy ear labs.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Well, the type of e-collar training you described earlier would have actually been ways "milder" than the traditional means.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Well, the type of e-collar training you described earlier would have actually been ways "milder" than the traditional means.


It is pretty much exactly the Lou Castle method that you read part of earlier.

Edited to add: it's more a combination of Lou and Ivan.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, instead of writing a big long post about the trouble I’m having with Nora being weird in the ring, I recently sent a PM to David. I didn’t want to get a bunch of conflicting options, nor did I want to hear about skittery ASLs. He steered me in the right direction, and I feel good about taking his advice. I appreciate someone that has a bunch of tools in their bag of tricks, and isn’t stuck on “this is the only way to do this thing”.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Well, the type of e-collar training you described earlier would have actually been ways "milder" than the traditional means.


What do you think traditional means are?


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> What do you think traditional means are?


I don't know much about herding work in general. Only what I've seen around me so whips, dogs getting a few ribs broken or teeth popped from kicks, that kind of natural "feedback" 
But I have no idea if some people now use e-collars for herding or how.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I've heard some shepherds in the south use e-collars on flock protection dogs though, like Patou and Kangal.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Another instance that fits the discussion.

I was contacted by a working line breeder who I have experience with about a pup who was having trouble in their home. Reactivity issues. Health problems. Stressed out.

I worked with them and the owner, trying to find a way forward for them. The owner had GSD experience but this was a lot of dog for them compared to their previous dogs.

The dog came back to the breeder at about 16 months. I was going to go work with them and evaluate the dog but after getting back to the breeder, the dog was fine. A former Marine handler ended up with the dog and has no issues at all.

I'm not saying anyone is at fault in this situation. I believe the owner got the dog they asked for and the breeder did their due diligence in selecting a home for the dog in asking all the right questions. The gap in understanding was just too wide for them to have a truthful conversation with a probable outcome.

I think perspective is a huge hurdle to online conversation. If I have you and your dog in front of me, I can see what you mean by aggressive, a can see what your timing, rewards and corrections look like and how they effect the dog.

I have yet to have a client accurately describe their dog in the same way that I would. I'm not saying they are right and I am wrong. I'm just saying that without hands on experience with things, accurate information is hard to come by because of differing perspective.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Chloé&Buck I attached a link to a bunch of e collar info by Lou Castle, since you said you like to learn.
eCollar | SIRIUS DOG


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I think perspective is a huge hurdle to online conversation. If I have you and your dog in front of me, I can see what you mean by aggressive, a can see what your timing, rewards and corrections look like and how they effect the dog.


Yes!
When I describe Shadow it comes across completely different then what is really happening. When I go see peoples horrible puppies I see fun puppies. Friend brought me her vicious dog, who was not at all he was just a brat.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> @Chloé&Buck I attached a link to a bunch of e collar info by Lou Castle, since you said you like to learn.
> eCollar | SIRIUS DOG


Thanks! I read all these articles the other day when Wolfy mentioned Lou C.
It's very similar to protocols I had found on a working Malinois FR blog a few years ago.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t agree. I think a lot of tools are used for managing dogs. Leashes, collars, crates, kennels, fences, walls, harnesses. All different things used to manage and control dogs. I think first and foremost, as long as you keep your dog safe, under control, and stop them from being a menace using techniques that are safe and fair to the dog then you are fine. There’s this I never use those so I’m better than you and you don’t deserve a dog mentality that comes from that statement. I don’t think everyone needs to live with their dog like me. I don’t think everyone needs to train their dogs like me. I don’t think doing it differently necessarily makes anyone better or worse than me. That is exactly what that statement comes off as.


I don't know how you can get this perspective from any statement I've ever made...

Use and need are entirely different things no?

I couldn't care less what you use or how you train, nor have I ever said anything else! 

Most of the conversation in this thread has had very little to do with the topic of the thread, that's fine, it's been fun to read people's comments and perspectives.

But the thread itself has nothing to do with which tools or training method you choose to employ. But rather with the question of if there is an "ONLY" way to train x. Again, use versus need!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Tim come on now!The thread started out with you mostly talking about tools you'd never want to use. It was totally unnecessary to mention them at all. Unless you wanted get some members stirred up.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> Tim come on now!The thread started out with you mostly talking about tools you'd never want to use. It was totally unnecessary to mention them at all. Unless you wanted get some members stirred up.


The assertion that 100% obedience can "ONLY" be obtained via an ecollar is the topic. I'm not sure how I could have approached the subject without mentioning it?

I apologize if people took that the wrong way, but honestly I never said I haven't used or never would use an e-collar. In fact I used them for years! What people choose to assume is up to them; but you must admit it has made for lively discussion lol!

I did say I choose not to use one on my current dog because she's already reliable enough without IMHO...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't know how you can get this perspective from any statement I've ever made...
> 
> Use and need are entirely different things no?
> 
> ...


The statement that you shouldn’t have a dog if you need tools to manage it is exactly what I’m talking about. Look at the amount of people and dogs that need to use muzzles at the vet. Neither of my dogs have any issues in this scenario. It’s the equivalent of me saying if you need a muzzle you shouldn’t have that dog.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> The statement that you shouldn’t have a dog if you need tools to manage it is exactly what I’m talking about. Look at the amount of people and dogs that need to use muzzles at the vet. Neither of my dogs have any issues in this scenario. It’s the equivalent of me saying if you need a muzzle you shouldn’t have that dog.


I didn't say anything about a muzzle, you're reading that in! If you need a muzzle use a muzzle. 

Back in the day we used a piece of string to accomplish the negative reinforcement that people now use an ecollar for. Use versus need! More than one way and all...


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> The main problem I have is when people state things as fact. There is a huge difference between saying "in my experience" and saying "this is the way it is."
> 
> Example: resource guarding. I see all kinds of "factual, this is how you do it" posts that will get someone hurt with the wrong dog. Just because, that dog doesn't exist, so go ahead and stick you head down and eat out of the bowl with the dog. Everything will be fine. The dog will get used to it.


I can't decide if that's what they call a microaggression these days or a flat out shot


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Bearshandler said:


> The statement that you shouldn’t have a dog if you need tools to manage it is exactly what I’m talking about. Look at the amount of people and dogs that need to use muzzles at the vet. Neither of my dogs have any issues in this scenario. It’s the equivalent of me saying if you need a muzzle you shouldn’t have that dog.


Piper never had a problem at the vets, she was always super calm.....until she wasn't. When she was 7 she bit a vet tech. 6 stitches later, guess who wears a muzzle to the vets office? What did someone say up further in the this thread? Never say never.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Piper never had a problem at the vets, she was always super calm.....until she wasn't. When she was 7 she bit a vet tech. 6 stitches later, guess who wears a muzzle to the vets office? What did someone say up further in the this thread? Never say never.


I know. The point wasn’t about what my dogs do or don’t do.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What do the dogs think? Deja : "Yeah! She has the prong ready for me" or "OMG, she has the E collar ready; trail walk, let's go, open that door!" "The muzzle? Bring in the treats!"


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> I can't decide if that's what they call a microaggression these days or a flat out shot


I hear a Carly Simon song in the background 

What in the name of Hades is a microaggression?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> Just because that person has never had that kind of dog, *in the 6 dogs they have trained*, that dog doesn't exist, so go ahead and stick you head down and eat out of the bowl with the dog. Everything will be fine. The dog will get used to it.


Sometimes the condescension and direct shots aren't even thinly veiled, you use that number in your examples a lot 

Edit: I get the Carly Simon reference!


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I hear a Carly Simon song in the background
> 
> What in the name of Hades is a microaggression?


I would think a microaggression sounds to be aggression from a very small pup no??


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Sometimes the condescension and direct shots aren't even thinly veiled, you use that number in your examples a lot
> 
> Edit: I get the Carly Simon reference!


If that number is of consequence, I am unaware. It just comes up in my head. I'll use 7 from now on if I remember.

I'm not actually singling you out. If it seems that way, it is unintentional and I apologize.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

REEHGE said:


> I would think a microaggression sounds to be aggression from a very small pup no??


Maltese maybe?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> If that number is of consequence, I am unaware. It just comes up in my head. I'll use 7 from now on if I remember.
> 
> I'm not actually singling you out. If it seems that way, it is unintentional and I apologize.


To be honest, the description you use did seem (to me) to be aimed at me, it's pretty true
I don't really care if someone wants to take shots at me, I'm a big boy


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Let me just be clear and dispel most, hopefully, of the pent up anger people harbor. I don't and never had any aversion to any tool or their proper use! I have used ecollars successfully on many many occasions, and I never have said, or implied that the use of any collar is bad!

That's entirely on others, and their incorrect impressions! An ecollar, as they are now, are a very effective and useful tool!

Not the point of the thread though! Point of the thread is and always was, is that the ONLY WAY to teach a behavior!!!

It isn't and it never will be. So, just broaden your own training perspective here. Not attacking anyone for thier practices, not condemning anything, just trying to grow awareness. More than one way to skin a cat, is a statement that has very little to do with cats... Just food for thought, that's all...


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

On the use of e-collars by pet owners, Lou says (ELECTRONIC COLLARS – WEANING THE DOG OFF THE ECOLLAR | SIRIUS DOG) "BTW either a dog is reliable or he’s not. Reliability means 100%." "Personal Protection dogs or Police Service Dogs; DO need reliability. But just because you own a pet, rather than a working dog, doesn’t mean that you too, can’t have a reliable dog. "
Well, yes and no. 
Yes you can have a reliable companion dog, but it doesn't mean you need to do it the way police or ring dog trainers do it. Doesn't mean you need to use tools and protocols that originate from ring trainers or police dog trainers, or another specific area of practice, to get a reliable "companion" dog.
Also, please note that "companion dog" VS "whatever dog" isn't a clear-cut distinction. We aren't talking about an apple and a shovel here. Just about dogs trained in different ways for different tasks and lifestyles.

Personal feeling of course, but I like that I don't have control over everything, I like that I actually have to trust my dogs to make the right choices in various situations, and that they, in turn, have to trust me enough to take my word for it. Actually, it forces me to think about what I'm asking/doing, to constantly adapt, assess how reliable they are VS the environment, etc.
I like that I haven't been counting on any remote control device to this day to achieve reliability, because yes, it makes the journey much less "clean" and smooth, less uniformized/standardized so to speak (less "technical" too, to a certain extent, though technicality exists in various forms), but it also makes it very interesting and enriching (at least to me).
I like that the way we train is a colorful mix of, yes, conditioned stuff (you do need to condition stuff and create reflexes and work on instantaneous compliance for some commands), plus intuitive communication and nuances, plus having read a whole novel sitting in my chicken enclosure to work on my chicken ban, plus having had that strange first parachute jump feeling when I decided that we didn't need a leash anymore, etc.

So my point is, I don't feel "bad" about people using the e-collar to proof stuff through escape/avoidance training.
But I'm still not sure I agree with Lou's vision that it could benefit to anyone, at any point of training. I came across an old thread from jarn, where Lou says that "believing you should start training with other methods, and only then can the Ecollar be used to proof those behaviors", was wrong/a misconception, that his practice had proven wrong.
I totally understand his point, but I just wonder how it would impact a dog owner's journey to kind of "cut through" all that diversity of experiences that yes, imply to take a certain amount of risk, but still teach you a lot along the way.
Safety first at all costs? If someone feels that way, fine by me. I guess I just don't as of now.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I have worked dogs that were trained with e collars, I had even used them on those dogs. Shadow was the first of my dogs that I thought would benefit from it and I screwed it up, because I am a genius at screwing things up. Not in a bad way, I didn't scare or hurt her, I just taught her the wrong thing.
> I wanted to be able to let her run loose and she is a dedicated hunter with crazy prey drive. I thought with the e collar she could be taught to come off a track or chase. But I started with the recall, as directed. No one could have predicted that she would grasp the concept in one or two reps, and I would never have imagined the connection she would make from that.
> Instead of a dog that can run loose with the e collar I created a dog that won't leave my side with the e collar! It doesn't bother her, she just thinks that is what it means. I was never able to unteach it. David probably could have figured it out, I can't.


Hey @Sabis mom, so, I went back to this FR Malinois blog on which I had read about escape/avoidance training a few years ago (GAYA) and I just found a paragraph there that sounds like it may relate to your experience with Shadow, so I just translated it into English:
"For dummies: if you start by using the remote control collar for recall, you expose yourself to the fact that each time you give a stimulation, the dog will systematically return to his owner's feet, no matter what the command is, because it is this response that allowed him to stop the stimulation the first time. So we foolishly deprive ourselves of the main interest of a remote control, by destroying the possibility of using it in conditioning for all the other functions or situations necessary for remote training, and they are numerous in Ring: garde au ferme, conduite de l'HA, object guarding, etc."

Just a DeepL translation so may not be perfect. I left a couple of FR terms untranslated at the end as it's ring jargon and DeepL had no clue what it was. lol


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Many years ago I always started pups off leash. So the leash was an after thought. I did not need one other then to comply with laws. As laws got more strict, and cities more crowded it became necessary to reverse that.
Then I got a deaf Great Dane. For obvious reasons a deaf dog cannot run loose without training. It shifted a lot of the way I approached things. I imagine that an e collar would have made training her much simpler. Although I may not have learned as much and I doubt she would have accomplished as much because I would not have needed to be as creative..
I have no issues with using an e collar on a pup other then I suspect it would make a lot of owners lazy.
Someone commented to me a while back that I always look happy walking with my dog, and I walk her constantly. Most of the owners I see look miserable. That tells me a lot about how average dog owners feel. And how things would be if we pushed a shortcut to them.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Exactly! I love the creative part 
How did you go with your great dane? Training a deaf dog, amazing experience


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

So much gets said it’s tough to keep up on what I would like to insert.

This type of statement bothers me.

“For one thing these correction collars are for training, not management. It is a difference. If you like a prong collar because it makes walking the dog more pleasurable because he isn’t pulling the entire time, that’s up to you; but if that prong fails (and they do), and you can’t chase the dog down and grab it and stop it before it bites someone or gets run over by a car (given you aren’t 100% reliable on recall, of course), then you are a liability to the breed and shouldn’t be owning the dog”

I love this -

“I think you can get 100% reliability that the dog will not do anything you do not expect.”

Knowing that above is so important. I can’t seem to win with Apex when it comes to deer and dogs.

Expand....

“Someone much smarter than me told me years ago that the best behaved, best trained dog in the world is going to disobey at some point. And it will be at the worst possible moment.
I keep that in the back of my mind always.” - THIS! I don’t have nearly the best-behaved dog.

Apex can win; he knows it. I wish I could find the direct quotes by Steve Strom.

My pet dog is a backyard breed GSD. My first dog has been a journey of ups and downs. Not easy, not easy at all. I struggle with the most basic things.

I’ve seen posts where people say, “who knew a leash was so complicated!” Insert sarcasm

Steve said; basically, you don’t want to fight with these dogs. I fought Apex for two years. It’s taken me an additional two years to figure out how to stop fighting him mostly. He is five now.

I’ve spent the last two years building with Apex. I don’t take him anywhere where I risk a reaction. If he reacts, I cannot control him. I can walk him on a leash and off-leash in a beautiful relaxed heel on a level ONE distraction LOL for a long way too. He chooses to. Okay, maybe slightly more than a level 1, but he will fail me when it matters. I don’t blame him; I always blame myself.

Steve also said in conjunction generally, when it’s the dog’s idea, it’s solid for life. I have spent two years trying to figure this out. Dog obeys because he wants to. He is clear. 

I tried tools. While tools gave results, it was too frequent and nagging. I can suppress the dog into not reacting at very low levels. Take the collar off, and the dog will react and disobey. During a reaction or chase, can’t do anything.

No corrections for two years. With the maturity and the work, we put in. I went to see a trainer. I want to introduce distractions so I can finally proof behaviors systemically. If corrections are involved, I am okay with it; I need guidance and distractions.

I say do you think the dog understands? Yes, he is a nice dog. Will I ever be able to trust him? Not if you can’t correct the dog. – ( inner thoughts THIS STINKS)

She tells me if he is off-leash has to have an E-collar on or be on leash with a prong. FOREVER

I am not committed entirely to this belief…..I don’t want to be
So if this is the case, then I have no business owning a dog? Gut punched 
Maybe it’s true took five years just to get him to loose leash walk. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> I say do you think the dog understands? Yes, he is a nice dog. Will I ever be able to trust him? Not if you can’t correct the dog. – ( inner thoughts THIS STINKS)
> 
> She tells me if he is off-leash has to have an E-collar on or be on leash with a prong. FOREVER
> 
> ...


The point I was making is that there are many other options to achieve the same thing! You don't need a prong collar because you can accomplish the same thing with a choke chain or a slip lead or a martingale or many other tools.

What you need is control. What you choose to use has been a prong collar, and that's fine. If it were me, I'd look for a different trainer though.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> So much gets said it’s tough to keep up on what I would like to insert.
> 
> This type of statement bothers me.
> 
> ...


Shadow is 11. For two years I tried to make her be a normal dog. I did all the right things, it got us nowhere. I had a stressed out dog who acted out and lashed out in frustration and terror. Then I spent a year or so doing nothing. We stopped walking and training and pushing. We played and hung out and cuddled and talked. I learned so much more about my dog then I had while fighting her. I learned to read her, I learned about her quirky language, I learned the essence of her. I stepped back and started working her on her terms. At 5 we introduced a prong to get us over that one last hurdle. 
People comment all the time that she is such a good dog, so well behaved. If only they knew. 
David talks a lot about buy in. Get the dog to WANT to do it. No matter what tool you use you will fail if the dog doesn't want it at least as much as you do.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@Sabis mom that time spent doing nothing can change everything. ❤ well said


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@tim_s_adams 
that control with out tools is what I strive for. Maybe not possible with this dog. I know I have a much better shot with my new dog.

I agree about the trainer. It's not my first. WIsh I could find one I like and can afford. It's unfortunately the best controlled environment I have right now. I won't be handing my leash over that is for sure.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> David talks a lot about buy in. Get the dog to WANT to do it. No matter what tool you use you will fail if the dog doesn't want it at least as much as you do.


Here's buy in. No correction tools were used in the making of this video.

Yes, he body checks me regularly. He also spins behind me and all sorts of fun, goofy stuff. I'm not sure that a dog could have much more fun doing simple OB.

This is our 5th outing of the day. More than 3 hours total out having fun.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Here's buy in. No correction tools were used in the making of this video.
> 
> Yes, he body checks me regularly. He also spins behind me and all sorts of fun, goofy stuff. I'm not sure that a dog could have much more fun doing simple OB.
> 
> This is our 5th outing of the day. More than 3 hours total out having fun.


That’s a good looking dog. Very engaged and excited to be with you. You can see it’s not about the rewards or punishments, but the act of working with you.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> That’s a good looking dog. Very engaged and excited to be with you. You can see it’s not about the rewards or punishments, but the act of working with you.


So the idea of shutting a dog down with heavy handed training, I don't care what tools you use, really disgusts me. That's why it bothers me when people assume that dogs trained with "those tools" have less fun. Like we are robbing them of something. 

This dog is capable of doing just about anything. He's also capable of complete anarchy and destruction. 

There is a balance in dog training, particularly with dogs that like to fight and have the nerve strength to back it up. When you convince a dog that doing the right thing is their idea, it doesn't take a lot of compulsion to keep them in line.

I stand by my statement that it's takes proofing. The threat of consequence has to be there, in the back of their mind, keeping them honest.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> So the idea of shutting a dog down with heavy handed training, I don't care what tools you use, really disgusts me. That's why it bothers me when people assume that dogs trained with "those tools" have less fun. Like we are robbing them of something.
> 
> This dog is capable of doing just about anything. He's also capable of complete anarchy and destruction.
> 
> ...


Hard to say it better than that.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> People comment all the time that she is such a good dog, so well behaved. If only they knew.


So true. That's also why dog passion can feel a bit "lonely" at times. You definitely need to have at least a few like-minded friends.
People can never guess how much effort you put in, and are easily fooled by a dog obeying even the most basic commands.
These shepherds easily make an impression out in public, because of this high drive they have. Most people don't realize that intensity reflects in all aspects of what they do though, not just obedience.
Back in his hard/dirty reactivity days, Buck could already look like a champ in the right setting. Then turn into a monster in a split second. 
My Boxer mix is much less eye-catching in the way she obeys, but she's never been remotely as hard to train for "normal life".
Buck was already a young adult when I got him though, I wonder how it would have been to train him from puppyhood.
I used to be sure lack of experience in his first year was the reason he was so hard at the beginning. But at that training session I attended there were mostly shepherds, most of which had been bought as pups. And well, some of them were looked like a handful. 😅

It was quite fascinating how fast they responded handled by the guest trainer. Some of them got here looking like they wanted to kill any approaching person, and were playing tug with a stranger like 20 minutes later in the training enclosure.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

The way this guy (the trainer) used posture, facial expression and hand touch on these dogs was kind of mesmerizing. I swear I just stood there with my mouth dropped open for most of the 2 days I was there. lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> The way this guy (the trainer) used posture, facial expression and hand touch on these dogs was kind of mesmerizing. I swear I just stood there with my mouth dropped open for most of the 2 days I was there. lol


It's really easy as a trainer to swoop in and make your dog look good. The dog doesn't know the trainer and first impressions mean a lot. It hasn't had the experience of blowing the trainer off a hundred times of the effects of poor timing, inconsistencies and confusion that develops with many owners.

I'm not trying to talk this guy down at all. I'm just saying that an experienced trainer can typically make any dog look good in fairly short order.

New military/police handlers get so frustrated when they are struggling with their dog, so you take the leash to demonstrate and the dog behaves perfectly. They say the right words, which is what they think is important, but everything else is wrong. You are right about posture and such, but it's more than that. It's about how you feel and think, and how you project those things to the dog.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> It's really easy as a trainer to swoop in and make your dog look good. The dog doesn't know the trainer and first impressions mean a lot. It hasn't had the experience of blowing the trainer off a hundred times of the effects of poor timing, inconsistencies and confusion that develops with many owners.
> 
> I'm not trying to talk this guy down at all. I'm just saying that an experienced trainer can typically make any dog look good in fairly short order.
> 
> New military/police handlers get so frustrated when they are struggling with their dog, so you take the leash to demonstrate and the dog behaves perfectly. They say the right words, which is what they think is important, but everything else is wrong. You are right about posture and such, but it's more than that. It's about how you feel and think, and how you project those things to the dog.


Yes, totally.
It does help though. At least it makes people see their dog from a different perspective. Then training the owner, and adapting as an owner, takes effort. But knowing what's possible gives you motivation and you also learn a lot from just watching what the trainer does.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Many trainers use their own dogs for demos. I used their own dogs for this so they could see what their dogs are capable of. My issue was that after that they don't follow up and go back to their own ways.
I am not sure if I missed the following in this ever expanding thread; how people here who claimed they got great results with a high prey drive dog but without the use of prongs or Ecollars.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I prefer the trainers use their own dogs for demos and correct me when I work with my own dog. I am happy and respect their magic and dog whispering talent but if I hire them I expect them to use their expertise to work on my skills and not show off theirs. My dogs potential is as high as my ability to help him reach it.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> I prefer the trainers use their own dogs for demos and correct me when I work with my own dog.


I have never seen any trainer not do both actually.
Show you, and teach you.
Trainers you have worked with do it differently?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog. 

Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog.
> 
> Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.


In my opinion, it depends entirely on the trainer in question. If Michael Ellis wants to work my dog, have at it


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog.
> 
> Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.


You hand the leash when you actually decide to work with a trainer/get help from them.
I'm not sure what you mean by "use their own dogs for demos" though.
Last time I went to my trainer was to assess my reactive dog and start work, and that's what we did. I didn't really need to see him handle his own dogs... 
What I needed was for him to assess where my boy was, and give me an idea of what results I could expect to achieve with him in which amount of time, so I knew roughly what to expect if I proceeded to adopt him.
We did use his dogs for exposure though.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

David Winners said:


> In my opinion, it depends entirely on the trainer in question. If Michael Ellis wants to work my dog, have at it


Lol But if you notice even on the videos, ME is super respectful of the owners and never starts by grabbing the leash and saying “here, look how it’s done” lol
That’s why I mentioned trust.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Chloé&Buck said:


> You hand the leash when you actually decide to work with a trainer/get help from them.
> I'm not sure what you mean by "use their own dogs for demos" though.


No I don’t. If I don’t like the trainer I will “undecide”, pay for the session, thank for their time and leave. If I like what I see and that the trainer is competent I can ask the trainer to show a concept with my dog and he can have the leash. 

They can show the goal behavior/technique on their own dog. Or they can use words.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> No I don’t. If I don’t like the trainer I will “undecide”, pay for the session, thank for their time and leave. If I like what I see and that the trainer is competent I can ask the trainer to show a concept with my dog and he can have the leash.
> 
> They can show the goal behavior/technique on their own dog. Or they can use words.


Well, not really... you can't demonstrate "technique" of handling a reactive dog on a non-reactive dog.
You can do a lot in a training session. I did work my dog, we did chat, and I did pass him the leash. We did all of that, and more


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I use my dogs to demonstrate specific things, like Nosework. This is the setup. Here is how I want you to release your dog. There is the change of behavior. This is how you reward. This is how you move to the next search etc...

I also take the leash with aggressive dogs after the initial meet and greet. 

For typical training sessions, OB type stuff, I don't use my dog or handle their dog for anything.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I use my dogs to demonstrate specific things, like Nosework. This is the setup. Here is how I want you to release your dog. There is the change of behavior. This is how you reward. This is how you move to the next search etc...
> 
> I also take the leash with aggressive dogs after the initial meet and greet.
> 
> For typical training sessions, OB type stuff, I don't use my dog or handle their dog for anything.


Makes sense...


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I'd let my trainer handle my dog for various types of activities though, wouldn't be the least worried 
If you don't trust someone, why would you work with them?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Well, not really... you can't demonstrate "technique" of handling a reactive dog on a non-reactive dog.
> You can do a lot in a training session. I did work my dog, we did chat, and I did pass him the leash. We did all of that, and more


Not comfortable with a stranger touching my dog. For any reason.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

If I had an aggressive dog that I brought to a trainer as the last resort then probably it would be different. Normally there is no need to handle someone else “pet” dog.

My approach is based on personal experiences. Unfortunately, I was never surrounded with ME type of trainers, and I still feel shame after one encounter with a local trainer when I did give her a leash based on her “reputation”.

My previous dog was a strong dog, he met power with power, aggression with aggression, had a very strong sense of fairness, and strangers meant zero to him unless they took time to establish rapport. He would respond to regular voice or whisper if needed, raised voice, pushiness with him led to nowhere. 

He was young, I didn’t know all of this about him yet. He did not have any problems besides leash pulling. I went to the trainer just to start him on the right foot. The trainer immediately decided to correct him, escalating and escalating and becoming mad at him because he would not comply. I really still over a decade later feel shame that I did not end that “session” right away. After that encounter I decided to train my dog on my own and vet any future trainer really hard. My dog, my rules.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Not comfortable with a stranger touching my dog. For any reason.


He was not a "stranger" though. I've known this guy for many years.
But even if you go to a trainer you don't personally know (let's say you just you've just read reviews, checked what he's been up to, etc.), they will fortunately not be "strangers" anymore after you take some time to meet and chat


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> He was young, I didn’t know all of this about him yet. He did not have any problems besides leash pulling. I went to the trainer just to start him on the right foot. The trainer immediately decided to correct him, escalating and escalating and becoming mad at him because he would not comply.


Oh well, that doesn't sound good...



GSD07 said:


> I really still over a decade later feel shame that I did not end that “session” right away. After that encounter I decided to train my dog on my own and vet any future trainer really hard. My dog, my rules.


I understand.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I had kind of a similar bad experience but the "baby" version I guess, when we tried a local sports club with my girl years ago.
It's actually an associative, non-profit place where you just pay a small membership fee and you can try agility and OB, but the "instructors" there are like volunteer enthusiasts, not professionals.
At some point one of the older instructors grabbed my dog's leash and dragged her through the slalom cones like she was a bag or something...
My dog had absolutely no idea what was going on of course, neither did I ^^ lol
I definitely decided I would be more wary going forward.
This particular dog isn't very sensitive though, and she didn't give a darn, it didn't impact her. She was just like "humph, this guy was weird, what's next?" lol
But of course repeated incidents or ill-advised training can have terrible consequences.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Well, my trainer if she continued would get herself bitten and you can imagine what a mess it would have been. My dog was not affected, just pissed, but I was for sure, as we can see lol


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog.
> 
> Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.


I taught clicker training classes: no dogs were harmed 😜


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Chloé&Buck said:


> But I'm still not sure I agree with Lou's vision that it could benefit to anyone, at any point of training. I came across an old thread from jarn, where Lou says that "believing you should start training with other methods, and only then can the Ecollar be used to proof those behaviors", was wrong/a misconception, that his practice had proven wrong.


I've been here a long time, including during when Lou was active on the board, and that is exactly my takeaway from his (extremely long) posts. Not only did he suggest that everyone should be using e-collars, with every dog, to train anything and everything, he was quite insistent about it. He would argue extensively about all the ways you were wrong if you disagreed with him, picking apart posts, quoting single sentences completely out of context for that express purpose. Like it was his holy mission to spread the gospel of e-collars or something. It was a real turnoff. That being said, I have and have used e-collars, but for me there's a time and place for them and I don't think we would all be better served if we had just used an e-collar to train our 3 month old puppies basic OB like sits and downs. That may be an unfair characterization of his beliefs, but his promotion of e-collar training came across as extremely heavy handed. 



David Winners said:


> When you convince a dog that doing the right thing is their idea, it doesn't take a lot of compulsion to keep them in line.


👆 And THIS is exactly why I don't agree with Lou. I want to first build a foundation, a relationship with my dog, where I show them why it's in their best interest to comply. Good things happen when you do what I want! And then, LATER, if/when I need to add consequences, I'll do that. But to paraphrase David, the more my dog/s want to work for me, the less I need to correct them for not doing so. It just makes good sense, IMO.



David Winners said:


> In my opinion, it depends entirely on the trainer in question. If Michael Ellis wants to work my dog, have at it


I worked with Lisa Maze, ME's business partner in Loups du Soleil Belgian Malinois. Sadly, she died of cancer a few years ago, but she was an amazing trainer. The first time I met her I handed over the leash without hesistation. I understand why people wouldn't do that with just any trainer though, especially someone they didn't really know. She used her personal dogs in training sessions, Feist was the dummy dog when we worked on Keefer's leash reactivity. She could put him in a down, off leash and leave him there indefinitely while we worked a dog around him, and then when we needed more stimulation she'd have him stand, or bark as we walked Keef past him. Super nice dog, he'd have a tug in his mouth and shove it at anyone nearby to get them to play with him. He was the perfect neutral dog to work around. And her Border Terriers and BT mixes were great bait for curbing prey drive chasing issues. Lisa Maze


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Thanks @Cassidy's Mom! That's the impression I got from Lou's articles too.
A time and place for everything, sums it up I guess  

I love that my trainer has several dogs to help him depending on the requirements of each "case" he works on.
He has tis ability to mix and match dogs to make influences work for him.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I've been here a long time, including during when Lou was active on the board, and that is exactly my takeaway from his (extremely long) posts. Not only did he suggest that everyone should be using e-collars, with every dog, to train anything and everything, he was quite insistent about it. He would argue extensively about all the ways you were wrong if you disagreed with him, picking apart posts, quoting single sentences completely out of context for that express purpose. Like it was his holy mission to spread the gospel of e-collars or something. It was a real turnoff. That being said, I have and have used e-collars, but for me there's a time and place for them and I don't think we would all be better served if we had just used an e-collar to train our 3 month old puppies basic OB like sits and downs. That may be an unfair characterization of his beliefs, but his promotion of e-collar training came across as extremely heavy handed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that Lou is very forceful in his approach to people and he would regularly respond to posts line by line in an exhausting manner. Strangely enough, he was very pleasant in person and on the phone, at least in my experience with him.

We agreed to disagree about rewards in training. 

I think the main benefit he brought to the e-collar training world was his website. He meticulously broke down training into step by step protocols that anyone could understand. 

I don't follow only a single trainer's methods or program. I take what I like and put the rest in the toolbox. I have always tried to work with a dog instead of against it. Lol force an issue if it's life or death, but that is rare. I'd much rather figure out how to get the dog to do what I want and then make that a rewarding behavior. I may then move that to a situation in which they don't want to perform that behavior, taking their options away, but I do my best to make it fun and rewarding even when proofing things. 

I never had the opportunity to meet Lisa in person but we emailed back and forth a bit years ago. Everyone always had nothing but amazing things to say about her.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Winners said:


> I agree that Lou is very forceful in his approach to people and he would regularly respond to posts line by line in an exhausting manner. Strangely enough, he was very pleasant in person and on the phone, at least in my experience with him.


I found his online presence so completely repellant that I had zero interest in ever speaking to him or even visiting his website, but I'll take your word for it. "Forceful" is an understatement, lol. 

Lisa was fantastic. Her ability to read dogs was a gift, seeing how my dogs related to her instantly was a revelation. In that first meeting she told me that I underestimated my dogs, that I'd taught them more and they were capable of more than I realized and that I needed to up my expectations. She was right. And clients always ended up becoming friends too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is from 2010, Lisa was with Andrew Ramsay at the time, he was starting to promote his training business and asked if they could take some photos with us and our dogs at home to use on his website. Afterwards, we all went to a local brewpub for lunch - from left to right that's Feist, Halo, Cosmo, and Keefer. Lisa is taking the picture, me and Tom are seated with Andrew.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

2011. Lisa was famous for her photo ops, and this one was epic. A bunch of clients got together with her at a local marina/park, and we got 17 dogs in one picture. I just had Halo with me, she's on the ground in front between Feist and Lisa's BT mix Gooey.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Great photos!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I found his online presence so completely repellant that I had zero interest in ever speaking to him or even visiting his website, but I'll take your word for it. "Forceful" is an understatement, lol.


Ok, he could be a complete jerk any time someone disagreed with him. I was trying to be nice 😂

I went to my first seminar with him before I was a handler. 

I've learned a lot from a lot of jerks over the years lol.


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