# First GSDs compared to modern day working line



## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I thought that we would look into how working lines have changed, not just show lines. I used a pic of my moms dog so I apologize that it's not a very good one. Anywho, here the pics are:


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Here's a better picture(not of her):


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Another comparison I think we should note, so, do you guys think we could've stretched out the early 1900s dogs out as much as this WL.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I think that of all the bloodlines, the working lines have changed the least. With some of today's dogs, you can put them right up against a photo from 1920 and it looks like the same dog! But the biggest difference I see is that many working line dogs have more substantial bone and heads than in the early days. I also notice more angulation.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Yes definitely, especially the bigger heads.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)




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## NietzschesMomma (Jan 20, 2013)

What a great thread!!


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

NietzschesMomma said:


> What a great thread!!


Thanks! Another question would be, am I the only one who thinks that modern day breeders could cross some Malinois into their lines? I find Malinois to have a structure very similar to that of the first GSDs.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I've also noticed that on the first dogs, the withers weren't the highest point on their toplines, has anyone else noticed that?


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## NietzschesMomma (Jan 20, 2013)

I remember watching the old black and white Rin-Tin-Tin movies with my Grandma...for me it was love at first sight.  He was SUCH a beautiful dog! 


Edward A. Bellande with Rin Tin Tin — 1925


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

HeidiGS said:


> Thanks! Another question would be, am I the only one who thinks that modern day breeders could cross some Malinois into their lines? I find Malinois to have a structure very similar to that of the first GSDs.


You're certainly not the only one, but the point of a purebred dog is to keep their lines pure. Now that the breed is established, there's no opportunity to breed a mal and a GSD and register it as anything other than a PAL (just a mutt). Many mixes are bred for work, though.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't do it
" am I the only one who thinks that modern day breeders could cross some Malinois into their lines? I find Malinois to have a structure very similar to that of the first GSDs"


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

HeidiGS said:


> I thought that we would look into how working lines have changed, not just show lines. I used a pic of my moms dog so I apologize that it's not a very good one. Anywho, here the pics are:


I did not know that you got that much snow in Texas!!!! 

I have a dog who looks like ooooold GSDs that I have posted before next to the pic you posted but I can't find the thread.  She's not a PB GSD. I think their form and structure are such that they were sturdier looking dogs in these historical photos. Found it - old thread (please no one restart it!) http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/105431-help-breeder.html#post1427391


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That IS a lot of snow for Texas - so your mom has TWO dogs? But you are not allowed to do anything with either? That must be really though . . . 

The Malinois has a very different structure than a GSD. A GSD is supposed to be longer than they are tall - Mals have shorter backs that gives them a more square. They have no or very little rear angulation. Their neck and the way their head sits on top of their neck is different. The shape of their head is different. 

When people talk of mixing GSDs and Malinois, it is not to improve structure, but to get more drive for specific working venues.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Here's a couple pics of my past dogs, not in a stack but I don't have many online of them..

The first dog was born in 87 Jake out of old grafental lines 

The second one was my AM line Kodi, the "mutant"..He was HUGE and not intended to be, 32" at the shoulders had a nose you could land a leer jet on He was born in 91

The third is Masi today, slovak/ddr/czech

The last is Dodge, @ 6months, DDR/Am showline cross, born in 96 ..All except Kodi have pretty much stayed consistent in structural type over the years..I'll have to find one of Sami , who was czech /am built like a malinois but had the brains of a gsd


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

just wanted to add, good topic Heidi


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks for all your replies, I only moved here the beginning of summer so the snow is in WV, not TX lol. My mom only has the sable in this thread, which other dog were you thinking about?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The puppy you have in your avatar? I thought that was your mom's dog - that is a different dog than the one you posted.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I did not know that you got that much snow in Texas!!!!
> 
> I have a dog who looks like ooooold GSDs that I have posted before next to the pic you posted but I can't find the thread.  She's not a PB GSD. I think their form and structure are such that they were sturdier looking dogs in these historical photos. Found it - old thread (please no one restart it!) http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/105431-help-breeder.html#post1427391


There is a huge resemblance!


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> The puppy you have in your avatar? I thought that was your mom's dog - that is a different dog than the one you posted.


It's the same dog as a puppy, sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Heidi, does your mom work her dog? If so, I can see why she'd only want one handler working her dog.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

the originals looked more like a coyote/mal mix not as powerfully built as some of the working line today, looks like a marathon runner. 

werent they more of farm guard and herding dogs back then? Then made the transition to police? Just curious. I bet great for predator protection.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HeidiGS said:


> Thanks! Another question would be, am I the only one who thinks that modern day breeders could cross some Malinois into their lines?


In some parts of Europe they do cross GSDs and Malinois, but they are considered mixed breeds, and they do it for the purpose of creating a high-drive sport or working dog, not in an attempt to add Malinois genetics to the GSD as a breed. However, there are rumors that one famous Euro kennel crossed Malinois with GSDs and registered the progeny as GSDs. But this is considered rather scandalous, and is highly debatable. 

Malinois actually have quite a different structure than GSDs, the more you look at both of them the more you see the difference.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

the policeman here told me most of the dogs are crosses between gsd and mal I thought that was strange. That was in Kingston. Maybe they wanted the mind of the mal with the power of the gsd. I have not seen these dogs though he just told me about them. Hes not a k9 handler just works with them I guess.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Heidi, does your mom work her dog? If so, I can see why she'd only want one handler working her dog.


No, the dog is a pet and I guess she just doesn't want to drive me places with her. (I don't know why Karma is any different than Sasha)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Are you not allowed to do things with your Mom's dog, or does she not want to drive you to classes?

If classes are the problem, then look in the training part of the forum for ideas of ways to train the dog. I trained my first dog with saltine crackers and no leash.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

A mix of both, but mostly driving.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Hate to be rude, but please pm me, I don't want to change the thread topic.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Heidi, do you think your mom would let you train her dog at home? Just basic obedience and maybe some tricks? If she sees that you are truly interested and motivated to succeed, and it isn't just a "phase" you're going through, she might take you more seriously.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Heidi, do you think your mom would let you train her dog at home? Just basic obedience and maybe some tricks? If she sees that you are truly interested and motivated to succeed, and it isn't just a "phase" you're going through, she might take you more seriously.


Yes I think she would, but I'm not sure. I might go work with Karma now(the dog lol).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Heidi, can you get to a library?? Take out some dog training or even trick training books and start teaching Karma (I think that's your moms dogs name) some stuff ! 

If you can find Clicking with your Dog by Peggy Tilman, its' GREAT, very very easy to read, step by step, teaching dogs all kinds of behaviors with a cheap clicker

Just something to think about


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Thanks, I have a few books, but I will gladly look for more. I should be able to get some books somewhere.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I did not know that you got that much snow in Texas!!!!
> 
> I have a dog who looks like ooooold GSDs that I have posted before next to the pic you posted but I can't find the thread.  She's not a PB GSD. I think their form and structure are such that they were sturdier looking dogs in these historical photos. Found it - old thread (please no one restart it!) http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/105431-help-breeder.html#post1427391


Do you know if anyone breeds a dog like the old style GSDs?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

HeidiGS said:


> Do you know if anyone breeds a dog like the old style GSDs?


There are breeders that claim they do.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

lhczth said:


> There are breeders that claim they do.


And ironically most of the breeders that I've come across that claim this are actually breeding gigantic 120+lb dogs with straight backs and long coats. GO FIGURE! :crazy:


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

lhczth said:


> There are breeders that claim they do.


But those breeders usually breed dogs that look like this....


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HeidiGS said:


> Do you know if anyone breeds a dog like the old style GSDs?


Ironically, most of the breeders who claim to breed "old fashioned" GSDs are actually breeding the opposite. Hulking oversized beasts with long coats and "family" temperaments (read: low drive). Often times they also use the term "straight back", which simply means they have poor angulation, and ironically, their backs often have a dip in the middle, which is anything but "straight". It's just plain ignorance. Even a 12 year old girl knows what the early GSDs looked like, and they weren't 140 lb dogs! 

Heidi, do a google search for "old fashioned straight back German Shepherds" and you'll be shocked at what you see. The dogs resemble GSD-colored Malamutes. They look nothing like the GSDs from the early 1900s.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I know, I definetly don't agree. Does a dog like the first even exist in GSDs anymore?


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

HeidiGS said:


> I know, I definetly don't agree. Does a dog like the first even exist in GSDs anymore?


Probably on a farm in an old town where the family has just been breeding their own best tender to their own best tender to keep a good dog on the sheep. I doubt they're registered, they probably sleep in the barn... and they're probably fantastic dogs.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

I would search for years to find a dog like that!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think the more modern GSD is a very heavy dog. Even the working lines. I much prefer the earlier structure of the GSD. Very athletic, not low in the back end, look like they could run for miles.

While you can see some really leggy square-type malinois, many of the lines I am familiar with have very balanced, powerful and compact dogs that are slightly longer than tall. 

I would love to have a retro GSD. They look like super dogs.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I think the more modern GSD is a very heavy dog. Even the working lines. I much prefer the earlier structure of the GSD. Very athletic, not low in the back end, look like they could run for miles.
> 
> While you can see some really leggy square-type malinois, many of the lines I am familiar with have very balanced, powerful and compact dogs that are slightly longer than tall.
> 
> I would love to have a retro GSD. They look like super dogs.


I completely agree!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My first GSD was sort of retro I guess. 50lbs, not overly heavy in bone though she did have kind of a barrel chest.


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

That's the closest I've seen in a purebred, if you don't mind me asking; where did you get her? (You can pm me)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

She's the bottom dog in my signature line
Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop


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## HeidiGS (Jul 8, 2013)

Ok. Thanks!


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## fredh (Sep 10, 2013)

I'm no expert, but when I compare the early GSD to my Jake, they look awefull scrawny to me! I think the "Modern" version looks just fine. Just my 2 cents.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> I think the more modern GSD is a very heavy dog. Even the working lines. I much prefer the earlier structure of the GSD. Very athletic, not low in the back end, look like they could run for miles.
> 
> While you can see some really leggy square-type malinois, many of the lines I am familiar with have very balanced, powerful and compact dogs that are slightly longer than tall.
> 
> I would love to have a retro GSD. They look like super dogs.


I agree with this. 

Those pictures demonstrate how much has changed with show lines especially, imho.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

fredh said:


> I'm no expert, but when I compare the early GSD to my Jake, they look awefull scrawny to me! I think the "Modern" version looks just fine. Just my 2 cents.


They look "scrawny" to you because you are used to looking at an overweight dog. Your boy will look better, feel better, be healthier and live longer if you take some weight off him.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Freestep said:


> They look "scrawny" to you because you are used to looking at an overweight dog. Your boy will look better, feel better, be healthier and live longer if you take some weight off him.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Everyone is so use to fat dogs that they view healthy dogs as too skinny and overweight dogs as perfect. 

Zeke on the left needs to lose 10 lbs at least. People think he's perfect. Berlin on the right although hard to see in the picture is lean and in amazing shape. People think he's starved

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I've admitted more than once that I wouldn't want one of the dogs of yore. Most of them are extremely unattractive to me. Cannot stand a dog that has no bend of stifle.

There are some exceptions, but I do overall prefer the modern dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Xeph said:


> There are some exceptions, but I do overall prefer the modern dogs.


Modern (today) compared to what era, 80's, 60's, 20's?? (just curious)


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## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

Liesje said:


> My first GSD was sort of retro I guess. 50lbs, not overly heavy in bone though she did have kind of a barrel chest.


Wow, great looking dog! 
I'd be so happy if my female looks just like her in a year or two, nothing better for sports than a dog with this strucuture! Great! :wub::wub::wub:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Modern (today) compared to what era, 80's, 60's, 20's?? (just curious)


Depends more on individual dogs than the actual era. Dogs with no turn of stifle or very little turn of stifle really bug me. I can't stand a straight rear.


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