# A thought on training approaches!



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Here is a quote I found on another forum about finding a behaviorist if you have an aggressive dog to rehabilitate! 


*"If the name Koehler has the person grimace and the names Pryor and Donaldson make them smile in delight...run for the hills."*

From my own recent personal experience with finding a helpful behaviorist, it has some real merit!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Well, Koehler makes me grimace--I'm thankful that training methods have advanced greatly in the last 30 years. I believe in good training....

You might like this blog post: Undue Temperance Spot Check


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Well, Koehler makes me grimace--I'm thankful that training methods have advanced greatly in the last 30 years. I believe in good training....
> 
> You might like this blog post: Undue Temperance Spot Check


I will say that that site/article is "interesting"!

A quote from it = 

"the potential adverse effects of *punishment* [include] but are not limited to: inhibition of learning, increased fear-related and aggressive behaviors, and injury to animals and people.."

Course I didn't see a good clear definition of either "aversive" or "punishment'.

They never (that I saw) ever used the word "correction", wonder if because "correction" doesn't have nearly the impact or emotional whack of "punishment".

I would love to see one of these devotees handle (fix?) a truly aggressive DA and/or HA dog - if they could I would have a lot more respect for their extreme approach. Esp.if they can retrain/modify the dogs behavior in a reasonable amount od time and not just recommend to "take away the temptation". As a couple of like sounding local "pro" trainers have said to me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Well, Koehler makes me grimace--I'm thankful that training methods have advanced greatly in the last 30 years. I believe in good training....
> 
> You might like this blog post: Undue Temperance Spot Check


 
Have you read much of Koehler books and other stuff? Most of the people that I find that "hate" him and think of him as the very devil of dog training and a curse to all dogs everywhere have not actually much knowledge of him and his approach at all.

BTW, he also believed in "good" dog training just as much as you and I do.

But he also had to deal with many truly aggressive dogs of whom he was the last possible step before the needle.

I would admit that I have not had to do so, as the worst I have had are a couple of truly independent low threshhold, VERY self confident GSD's.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I have Koehler's main training book, and I read it years ago. I remember his methods of teaching a dog not to dig holes in the yard and how he recommends teaching a dog to walk on leash.

I also grimace when I hear the Monks of New Skete mentioned as a training book....

One of my favorite training books was _Playtraining Your Dog_--by a woman who did AKC obedience with her greyhounds.

I was fortunate in that I attended a 3-day Ian Dunbar seminar back in 1992, a month before I got my first GSD. In 1995, I went to a seminar for dog trainers that was held at SeaWorld Ohio--that was a fantastic learning experience with a lot of information about learning theory and creative thinking/training.

I prefer teaching motivationally--whether with marker training or luring or with toy or food. But I have prong collars and electric in my training kit and will use the tool best suited for the task and the dog. Shaping a behavior isn't always the right choice--some dogs hate it and find it demotivational or stressful, some purposes are antithetical (you don't want your service dog offering random behaviors out in public and you don't want your schutzhund dog guessing what might bring a faster reward on the stand stays)

Having seen it happen too many times, I most hate the "bigger hammer" approach to training--that is, just escalating the force level when something isn't working.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I have Koehler's main training book, and I read it years ago. I remember his methods of teaching a dog not to dig holes in the yard and how he recommends teaching a dog to walk on leash.
> 
> I also grimace when I hear the Monks of New Skete mentioned as a training book....
> 
> ...


Koehler only advocated using any force whatsoever *after* the trainer was sure that the dog knew and understood the command! Used properly this approach works very well and also results in a very happy working dog. 

And the dog WILL work correctly under heavy distraction unlike a LOT (not all but a LOT) of the PO trained obedience dogs from many folks including some of the instructors in our local obedience club. They are famous for saying things at a show like "Don't touch or even talk to my dog - we are going into the ring soon!". Great trained dog, heh?


Wasn't Seaworld one of the places that many many positive only trainer advocates *used* to cite as a great example of PO training approach and say things like "see you can even teach a wild animal to obey using PO and treats and a clicker and the like" including even a Killer Whale! 

Wonder what those same people say now that the killer whale didn't obey very well when he attacked one of his regular handlers and killed her?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

codmaster said:


> I will say that that site/article is "interesting"!
> 
> A quote from it =
> 
> ...


From what I understand, Patricia McConnell has also handled truly aggressive dogs who were one step away from the needle also, while using positive reinforcement.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> From what I understand, Patricia McConnell has also handled truly aggressive dogs who were one step away from the needle also, while using positive reinforcement.


 
Would you happen to have a reference where she has written about handling truly aggressivebig dogs? I have never seen anything at all about this work of hers and would be really interested in reading about what she did and how she did it and the final results. 

I have read some of her books but never saw anything about handling big HA and DA dogs, so it would be very good to find out where you saw it. 

Do you have any of the details - i.e. breeds or how long it took and whether she did the training and handling, or had her clients do the handling?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Koehler only advocated using any force whatsoever *after* the trainer was sure that the dog knew and understood the command! Used properly this approach works very well and also results in a very happy working dog.


Uhh... Well, in theory, he might have said that, but his methods don't follow that in actuality. For example, put your dog on a long line, when the dog looks away, run the opposite direction and let your dog hit the end of the leash full speed. I'd say that's force before the dog knows what's going on....

There are way too many people with untrained dogs because of the positive-only training proponents who are not able to solve problems or help owners solve their problems. And yeah, most of them can't work their dogs around distractions or if the situation is less than perfect. No argument from me there.

SeaWorld has certainly got its problems, but it was one of the first organizations introducing training for all of its animals, using positive reinforcement methods to facilitate environmental enrichment and general healthcare for their animals. A lot of good learning and good training has gone on in their facilities and it was a treat to talk with all the different handlers and learn about how they problem solved--especially back in 1995 when this wasn't old hat and on the TV all the time....


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I will say that that site/article is "interesting"!
> 
> A quote from it =
> 
> ...


Were you under the impression that that blog writer was a positive only trainer?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I have read some of her books but never saw anything about handling big HA and DA dogs, so it would be very good to find out where you saw it.
> 
> Do you have any of the details - i.e. breeds or how long it took and whether she did the training and handling, or had her clients do the handling?


Type _Patricia McConnell Dog Aggression_ into Google, you should find some resources.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Were you under the impression that that blog writer was a positive only trainer?


No!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Type _Patricia McConnell Dog Aggression_ into Google, you should find some resources.


Thanks! Tried that approach without much real success.

Unfortunately the first three references I tried from the Google list were just great advertisements for things from Pat to buy to learn what she was saying.

No real information there unless I bought something, i.e. a DVD. 

Would you happen to know of anywhere on the web where I can see the great experience of Pat's with truly aggressive large HA and DA dogs. or is any information from her only available if one buys something? Was that where you saw it - in a DVD or in one of her books? If so can you just tell me which one you saw it in?

AND, besides here is a sample of what I found on one of them 

*"Is your dog a bit rude to other dogs?"*

*Of course "a bit rude" dog was not quite what I was looking for anyway; was it what you were talking about with Pat and her approach to HA and DA dogs?*


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I've only read a couple of her books, that I checked out from the library so I apologize, I can't quote specifics at the moment. I seem to remember some Labradors, Great Pyrs, Dobermans being referenced though. I'm reading "For the Love of a Dog" right now and I know there's some in here about other Labs and Pits. Those are "big" dogs. My Lab was 90 lbs of solid muscle. If he had been aggressive it wouldn't have been pretty. She's been an Animal Behaviorist for over 30 years-- I'm sure there isn't much she hasn't seen.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I used to live in Madison, WI and volunteered with a gsd rescue. We sent several dogs & owners to Karen London, who was McConnell's lead behaviorist at the time. She gave each client a very detailed behavioral assessment and rehab plan and some people continued to go to her for help. These were extreme cases where the choice was to get help or to pts. In all cases the dog was able to be rehabbed. 

I also took Basu (fear aggressive and extremely afraid of people) through intermediate and advanced group training classes at McConnell's dog training facility. Had you met him before and after those classes you would never have believed he was the same dog. Their techniques were extremely helpful for not just managing Basu (who did bite someone before I realized how serious his FA was) but also for rehabbing him to the point where he was trustworthy in many situations. 

Codmaster, there are quite a few people on here who have been training dogs for years and have tried all kinds of techniques. We are not wimps or idiots. I personally have worked with some tough dogs over the years. I have a very strong personality. I can back off an aggressive dog with my voice and my body language. 

I have gotten much better results using positive reinforcement than using negative punishment. Some people, however, don't have the right temperament for this type of training. These people actually seem to enjoy giving their dogs corrections, kind of a power trip thing.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> I've only read a couple of her books, that I checked out from the library so I apologize, I can't quote specifics at the moment. I seem to remember some Labradors, Great Pyrs, Dobermans being referenced though. I'm reading "For the Love of a Dog" right now and I know there's some in here about other Labs and Pits. Those are "big" dogs. My Lab was 90 lbs of solid muscle. If he had been aggressive it wouldn't have been pretty. She's been an Animal Behaviorist for over 30 years-- I'm sure there isn't much she hasn't seen.


 
Big, yes, but I would suspect that it would be hard to compare the temperament of a Lab and a GSD.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I've had both and yes, there are differences, but you'd be surprised at how similar they are. Its like comparing city folk to country folk; in the end, way more alike than different.

Besides, an aggressive 90 lb dog is an aggressive 90lb dog. A scared or pizzed off enough dog bite is a dog bite. Teeth are teeth.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I think all dogs have personality differences and that breed doesn't contribute nearly as much as their personality does. An unsound, sensitive dog is an unsound, sensitive dog regardless of what breed it is. Most people and dogs respond very well to positive reinforcement because it does not focus on what they are doing wrong, it focuses on what they are doing right. I'm not saying that you should never correct, but I am saying that there are better ways to correct than others. I can't think of any breed or type of dog who needs punishment to learn.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> I have gotten much better results using positive reinforcement than using negative punishment. Some people, however, don't have the right temperament for this type of training. These people actually seem to enjoy giving their dogs corrections, kind of a power trip thing.


This part of your post reminded me of this excerpt from Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog by Emma Parsons: _
Why Punishment Does Not Work

"Punishment can damage the relationships we have with our dogs. You want your dog to feel safe near you, not threatened. Fear stops the learning process in both dogs and humans. If the threat comes from the source of learning (the handler), the decrease in learning is compounded.

***The most serious danger with punishment, however, is that it very often feels good to the punisher. Punishment is reinforcing to the punisher. It mistakenly leads us to believe that we have "fixed" the behavior. The next time we will be tempted to punish harder and faster.***

Not only is punishment risky, but it also fails to teach the dog an acceptable alternate behavior. The dog does not learn what to do the next time he is in that same situation. He only learns to fear the situation. To adequately solve the aggressive behavior, you need to ask yourself, 'What do I want my dog to do, other than being aggressive when he sees another dog?' "
_

I think that positive training for treatment of aggression in dogs is only going to work well depending on the commitment of the handler/owner. It's a long road, it's slow, and you have to learn to celebrate the small victories. Most people do not have the dedication it takes to train this way.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RocketDog said:


> I've had both and yes, there are differences, but you'd be surprised at how similar they are. Its like comparing city folk to country folk; in the end, way more alike than different.
> 
> Besides, an aggressive 90 lb dog is an aggressive 90lb dog. A scared or pizzed off enough dog bite is a dog bite. Teeth are teeth.


But think about it for a minute - yes I have seen an aggressive Lab or two but the general breed temperament is very very different. For example how many Labs do you see doing any K9 work (other than sniffing work of course)? Ever think why not?

BTW, if I had to get bit i would much prefer a bite from a scared dog than a few of the not scared GSD's that I have run across. The scared bite will be quick and usually not full as the dog wants to get away while the aggressive bite will be fuller, harder and with the dog coming foward to kill you. Much worse!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Leah, your posts on here (and fb) have been awesome! I've wanted to super like each one!!

As to the question in the OP, yes, I have seen several successful rehabilitations of aggressive dogs using only positive methods. I have seen corrections on reactive dogs turn them aggressive and make things worse. It is hard work to rehabilitate using positive means but the rewards over using corrections and shutting a dog down are ten-fold.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> But think about it for a minute - yes I have seen an aggressive Lab or two but the general breed temperament is very very different. For example how many Labs do you see doing any K9 work (other than sniffing work of course)? Ever think why not?
> 
> BTW, if I had to get bit i would much prefer a bite from a scared dog than a few of the not scared GSD's that I have run across. The scared bite will be quick and usually not full as the dog wants to get away while the aggressive bite will be fuller, harder and with the dog coming foward to kill you. Much worse!


You're far more likely to get bit by a scared dog and the bite is more likely to take you by surprise and to break skin immediately. You're likely to be bitten on your hands or face or in the back of the leg--because you wouldn't have been expecting it because you weren't trying to provoke a bite.

A confident dog is unlikely to bite you unless you are trying to get bit and even then, the dog often will grip fully and firmly--not trying to tear into your skin--you'll be bruised, but likely not bleeding. You'll probably be bitten on your upper arm or thigh.

There was a very nice sch3 yellow Labrador at the 2nd National HOT trial i 2001. He was a working police dog, too.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Leah, your posts on here (and fb) have been awesome! I've wanted to super like each one!!
> 
> As to the question in the OP, yes, I have seen several successful rehabilitations of aggressive dogs using only positive methods. I have seen corrections on reactive dogs turn them aggressive and make things worse. It is hard work to rehabilitate using positive means but the rewards over using corrections and shutting a dog down are ten-fold.


Can I super like this one as well?

The only thing I can add is if you are going to use corrections then do so under the guidance of a trainer! If you don't know what you are doing you can do so much damage in a hurry that may not be able to be undone.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've seen corrections work to control aggression in a situation where the dog has strong obedience already and is acting aggressive out of drive or confidence. For example, on the schutzhund field or in police work, you can put the dog in obedience and prevent the dog from engaging. The dog will still want to engage but will know it's not a permitted option. The dog understands the obedience already and can channel the drive and agitation of wanting to fight into obedience to the handler.

If a dog is fearful and you are correcting the dog, you may change the expression of that fear, but you are not changing the emotion of fear--the dog is still afraid and even more in conflict because now the handler is applying pressure and threat and the dog is caught between fear of the original problem (whether another person or dog or something else) and the stress of its person/handler/packmate initiating conflict. 

Although there is such a thing as dominance aggression, it's far less common, IMO, than fear aggression. And even then, a confident dominant dog is not going to be seeking out a fight. A dog who is lacking confidence will be the one who is worried enough to react when it is inappropriate. 

Even if you're having a rank/resource/dominance conflict with your own dog, if you can't solve that problem without getting into a fight, then you are losing the "battle"--we humans should be smart enough to earn respect and control the resources without an actual physical confrontation. There are very few scenarios where a direct confrontation is the best option. (And a physical correction to this type of dog is going to incite a confrontation almost always.)


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> You might like this blog post: Undue Temperance Spot Check


Love that blog! just read it this morning


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> ............................
> There was a very nice sch3 yellow Labrador at the 2nd National HOT trial i 2001. He was a working police dog, too.


Exactly my point! 

A protective Lab is rare enough for you to take special notice of one! Wonder how many GSD's there were there?

Thanks!


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## heartdog (Jul 2, 2008)

I totally grimace with Koehler- and I am very familiar with his writing. It's kind of ludicrous to me to say he doesn't use force until the dog knows what's being asked. Everything in the philosophy is force, in order to make the dog "responsible". 
I'm for relationship based training. I'm not an extremist, but by and large I do try to avoid using force, because it's a slippery slope (for me at least) and it's better that I creatively think how to solve issues without using physical confrontation. It doesn't make sense to me to treat an aggressive dog with a lot of force, either. It might take a longer time through positive means, but in the long run I think it sticks better, and causes true change in behavior, not outward signs. 
It's truly incredible the things that you can teach an animal through motivation. The only limitation is the trainer's skill and creativity


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Uhh... Well, in theory, he might have said that, but his methods don't follow that in actuality. For example, put your dog on a long line, when the dog looks away, run the opposite direction and let your dog hit the end of the leash full speed. I'd say that's force before the dog knows what's going on....


From what I remember about the longe-line training, it doesn't matter where the dog looks....there aren't any corrections for the dog looking away! But if the dog chooses to take off running after a distraction, the instruction is to stand your ground and allow him to "find the end of the leash." Just a bit of a difference.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

codmaster said:


> They never (that I saw) ever used the word "correction", wonder if because "correction" doesn't have nearly the impact or emotional whack of "punishment".



With most obedience trainers, the term "correction" simply means to "make it right." It's not specifically a punishment, or an aversive of some kind.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Exactly my point!
> 
> A protective Lab is rare enough for you to take special notice of one! Wonder how many GSD's there were there?
> 
> Thanks!


Wow. 

Here is an interesting article my trainer actually sent to me this morning: I wonder if you'll dare to read it codmaster.  It doesn't actually address your ORIGINAL post about dog aggression (which you _later changed your comments to be specifically about GSD's) _but it offers great insight into dogs and their relationship with their owners. And, it does address improper corrections. 


Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - He Just Wants To Say "Hi!"


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Also, the Volhard personality test begins with a section on Choosing a Breed and specifically mentions Labradors--and I quote "Naturally protective". Hmmm. I'm betting you've never owned one also, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

heartdog said:


> I totally grimace with Koehler- and I am very familiar with his writing. *It's kind of ludicrous to me to say he doesn't use force until the dog knows what's being asked. Everything in the philosophy is force, in order to make the dog "responsible*".
> I'm for relationship based training. I'm not an extremist, but by and large I do try to avoid using force, because it's a slippery slope (for me at least) and it's better that I creatively think how to solve issues without using physical confrontation. It doesn't make sense to me to treat an aggressive dog with a lot of force, either. It might take a longer time through positive means, but in the long run I think it sticks better, and causes true change in behavior, not outward signs.
> It's truly incredible the things that you can teach an animal through motivation. The only limitation is the trainer's skill and creativity


Everyone has the right to whatever opinion they want - the beauty of America.

To me, for example, it is absolutely ridiculous to not be able to "force" a dog to do what their owner tells them to do.

Or to wait until a dog is "motivated' to do something that the owner asks them to.

Or even worse to do as one of the PO *INSTRUCTORS in my obedience club* once told me when I asked her how to stop my dog from counter-surfing!

Know what they said - *"Don't leave anything that he would be interested in on the counter!"*

Nothing on how to solve the behavior problem - just take the temptation away.

I don't know about you (do you agree with this edition of a PO trainer "solving" a behavior problem?); but to me that is a totally unacceptable approach to a dog behavior problem.

I do notice however, like your posts, most PO advocates do use a certain group of words - "Force" or "Punishment" or "Cruel" and other emotionally charged words rather than more nuetral sounding words like "Correction" or "Reminder". Wonder why?

You can teach many things thru treats and rewards BUT can you depend on a dog that decides itself when and what it wants to do? 

Have you noticed that Jean Samulson(sp?) admits that her method will NOT result in as speedy or reliable retrieve as one that is taught thru a form of compulsion? If you don't know that or don't believe it - then just read her book and you will see her admitting it.

Proabably why many of the local PO obedience competitors also go bonkers if you look at or heaven forbid, talk to or worse, even try to pet their dog prior to them going into the ring. Lack of reliability due to the dog being allowed to make up his/her mind whether to obey or not!

A combination of treat/reward based training with some serious "proofing" and yes even a bit of compulsion when needed with some dogs!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I think it is also knowing how to read a dog, know what training when. 

Saw a 1.5 year old the other week. Owner talked about how the dog was 'highly bred", but yet had contact husband to fix major aggression/nerve issues from previous trainings. Major defense had been put on the dog at a very young age, etc. Stress handling crating (poop all over), etc another result. Bitten multiple people. Owner did not really see the issue....Not a good situation.


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