# Fama hips and spine



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

These are the shots I got from the vet. I don't know crap about this stuff. Her records say LS and bilateral HD with thickening of the femoral heads.

Any opinions?


























I have higher resolution shots and the actual x-ray viewer if anyone is interested.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The hips are well seated, with greater than 50% coverage. There is thickening of the neck and flattening of the femoral head. What I would expect from a working dog after years of working. 

There is arthritic bridging at LS. Again very common in working dogs and GSD in general. But I have seen much worse. 

Of course I was trained to treat the dog not the X-rays. So watch how she moves and gets along. 

With the LS, you may see problems posturing to defecate. That's where I saw it first with my girl. She became a poop walker, and did not fully posture as she got older. It can also make the slower to rise and cause soreness after strenuous activity. 


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Edit to add: I also see the beginnings of arthritic change cranially in the lumbar vertebra, I think it's L3-L4. But I am not great at remembering how many lumbar vert there are. If you look at the vertebra towards the head that gets cut off in the X-ray, there are obvious protrusions on them. There are on all the seen vertebra, but much more pronounced in those.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks. 

She's moving like a champ. Looking through her vet records shows that about 8 months ago, she was sitting and standing slowly and was showing mild instability in her rear when working. I'm not seeing any of it now.

She has been on Rimadyl for quite some time, so I took her off it. She is also on Gabapentin which I am leaving her on.

I feel that there will be a big difference now that she's not living in the kennels, on the concrete, spinning around all the time, on top of working. I'm going to get a ramp for the truck. I'm lifting her up and down for the time being.

She's also sleeping on a pad on a Kuranda or Tempurpedic now too. 


Reading through her records was tough. 3 tail tip traumas before the amputation, she ripped the staples out 3 times, a right foreleg injury, 3 ear infections including a tympanic membrane rupture, 2 broken teeth, they did a gastropexy while she was down for the ear cleaning and the incision got infected, an ABX resistant staph infection on her chest from scratching when they took her off ZD... poor dog. This is all since she went back to the kennels after April 2012.

I'm glad she's home.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Serratiopeptidase


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I also see the beginnings of arthritic change cranially in the lumbar vertebra, I think it's L3-L4. But I am not great at remembering how many lumbar vert there are. If you look at the vertebra towards the head that gets cut off in the X-ray, there are obvious protrusions on them. There are on all the seen vertebra, but much more pronounced in those.


Here's a better shot of the lumbar


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Serratiopeptidase


I had to google that LOL

Thanks for the referral. I'll look into it.


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## K9POPPY (Mar 6, 2014)

Wow, poor girl has had a lot happen to her, but I am sure now that you have her, she will flourish. From the looks of her x-rays a heated dog pad might give her some comfort, we use them on the Kurandas for older dogs, just a thought, regardless, just pleased she is in your home, best wishes, Bob


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Heat stimulates blood flow/circulation
Cold packs reduces inflammation. I have never found heat to be beneficial when my back was flared up...


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David,

I don't have the knowledge to say much about her spine, but I do know that I have had dogs with much worse hips who did fairly well, esp. with meds. She should do fine now that she's not working, and as you said, off the concrete, not spinning, etc. Daddy (and Mom!) will take care of her, she's in the best spot for her now.

Susan


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ok. Thanks for the better pic. So it looks like L2-4 have increased spiny processes, more so than the rest. 

I would, if she were mine, keep her on the Gabapentin, and add in Dasuquin(or another Glucosamine supplement), omega 3 and 6 fatty acids(they help with inflammation). 

I would also start doing some core building exercises. Just like with people a strong core supports the back. The 2 easiest ways are using a Bosu ball and getting her to perch first with her front feet and then with her back feet, get her to balance herself. Then teach her to have all 4 feet on the ball and balance. 

The other exersise you can do is have her in the bed or the couch, standing square, and gently push her side to side between your hands, that are on either side of her chest. This will get her to engage her core. 

Walk, up hills are good for building her leg muscles that support her hips, you can also do "sit to stands". Have her sit and then stand, but get her back end engaged so she just raises up, does not step forward. 

Laser therapy, acupuncture and underwater treadmill will also help to decrease inflammation and build muscle. 

I would keep Rimadyl on hand. If you know she is going to have a very busy day, give her a dose beforehand. Should help prevent pain before it starts! 

Good Luck!! I am very happy that you have her home!!! You both deserve a good rest after serving. Thank you both!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

studies at the Arthritis Foundation are finding some interesting results in anti inflammatory response from probiotics , plus protease in the 
Serratiopeptidase (you're covered)

Probiotic Bacteria Shows Anti-inflammatory Properties


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Good things to hear about that. I also learned some accupressure points for the back from a veterinary rehab specialist who presented a day seminar on health and the working dog..that will be a separate post sometime later. I am glad you have her now! I was out of town and just back last night. Grim had much more signfiicant bridging on his spine (he actrually had complete bridging on some) with no impairment; it was something we could not see on the x-ray.

I am really impressed by Chinese Medicine, Accupuncture and Cold Laser. The vet who did accupuncture also was certified in chiropractic for dogs but did not like to do on dogs with any arthritic projections.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Her LS definitely looks the worst out of her lumbar spine. I should see if I can dig up pictures of my first dog who had spondylosis all down her spine. It really was a wonder that she could walk once she got up there in age, but she was a stubborn creature if I ever saw one lol. I imagine that Fama is definitely the same way.  

Everyone has given really wonderful advice. I'd definitely give supplements, acupuncture, laser and asking about gabapentin a try. I actually used gabapentin toward the end with Kenai because it gave another level of pain control for her, since her stomach could not handle any kind of NSAID.

Here's my old girl's hips prior to her THR and her lower back that was just caught with GI issues...



















It is hard to see where it started in places on the spine, but most of her lumbar ended up with extra deposits, and anyone's hips look better than Kenai's did lol. 

Glad to hear that she's in good spirits however!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Quick update.

Fama has been swimming, doing retrieves, for 30 minutes twice a day.

We've been going for a walk on a long line in the morning and afternoon, 4 miles total every day.

She's moving great. No tenderness anywhere. Sits, downs, stands and poops well. Itching is going away. Coat looks great. Ears healthy.

She and the wife are great buddies. 

Couldn't really be better!

Heading to Oklahoma this afternoon 

David Winners


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Awesome

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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Excellent.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I gotta say, I think the combination of great supplements, good food and appropriate exercise are really going to be the answer.

She's getting better daily. Looking better. More spunk. Shedding less. Itching less. 

I set out a detection problem in a 150 x 150 yard field yesterday, with the hide in such a place that she would have to work the whole thing. Her trot was effortless. She was covering ground as well as ever. It was great to see. I'll have the wife shoot some video next time so the experts can see her gait.

David Winners


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Great to hear!! So ermine a little TLC, good food and good exercise are all that's needed. 


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

This story gets better with every day.

Wonderful news.


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

Good to hear you have her back and she is doing so well


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Got a house! Stuff gets here tomorrow. Plenty of room for the dogs and a fenced in back yard.

Everything is going great!


















David Winners


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Fantastic news!!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

That is fantastic! What are you feeding her, and how much?


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

Glad to hear such good news! Now you can finish the book...?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> That is fantastic! What are you feeding her, and how much?


Blue Wilderness - 1-1/4 c. 2x per day plus Sunday Sundae, FeedSentials, Sh-Emp Oil, PowerE, Coconut oil, and a smattering of yogurt and whole eggs.

She also gets 1/2 c. kibble during impromptu training throughout the day, and the occasional piece of steak or chicken for holding a down stay on her place during dinner.

I can honestly say that I have never seen her look better. She's been on this food / supplement combo for 3 weeks now and I see a huge difference in her skin / coat and general condition. She was blowing coat like mad when I picked her up and now she is hardly shedding at all. I've also been cleaning her ears with coconut oil, as she had just a bit of goop in one ear, and that cleared up in 3 days.

She is holding fast at 64 pounds. I may up her food a bit when we switch to raw after my extra fridge and freezer get here. I'd like to keep her lean for ease on her hips but she could use a little extra right now. Just a few pounds though.

Her movement is getting better too. She looked good when I brought her home but she's looking better now. Her stride is full and the little bunny hops are very infrequent. I have a ramp for the truck but I have to put her in a down stay to keep her from just jumping in or out. She sits like she's pounding nails. I do 100 reps of down to sit a day, like pushups, and a hundred reps of down to stand. We also wrestle on the bed and I push her sideways a lot, engaging her core.

Seeing what I see right now, I would work her in detection in a heartbeat. I think spinning in a kennel all day was adding to her problems. She spends most of the day chilling on her bed, or a piece of lawn furniture, and I think the rest and recovery periods, combined with the diet changes, are really doing her well. I have worked her almost everyday and her detection is really on point. I don't do any high hides where she has to jump up on anything just to be safe. She really has fun working still and I plan on imprinting her on the Nosework odors in the next couple of weeks. I think we could ORT and trial this summer if I can find the time to get away.

She plays with my CC Lucian all the time, and runs circles around him. I have yet to see her lame or in any sign of pain so I let them go at it. It's great exercise for her back and hips. They get a little rough from time to time and I call it quits, but for the most part they have a really fun time.

The coolest thing is to see her with the wife. They are great buddies and hit it off from day one. They play fight and wrestle together one minute and snuggle on the couch the next. Fama isn't a velcro dog. In the same room is usually enough, so when she engages Pam directly for play or snuggles it really is cool. They do a little OB together and Pam feeds her almost everyday.

She's been great with strangers too. She has happily greeted all the neighbors at the hotel and the utility people at the house. She goes ballistic if someone comes up to the door, but one STILL command and she's calmed right down and ready to say hi. Just a quick sniff-and-pat and she's off doing her thing. She takes guarding the vehicle a little seriously, but we're working on that. 


A little more than you asked for LOL

I just got internet at the house today so I can post from my laptop again.

More later. Time to walk that dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

kjdreyer said:


> Glad to hear such good news! Now you can finish the book...?


It's pretty low on the priority list right now. New house. New job. Settling in.

I promise, I'll start back up soon LOL


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Great update, nice to hear that things are going so well!


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Glad to read you all are doing so well and settling in!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

David! Treat her to a jason sea kelp shampoo bath  that will make her coat look brilliantly sparkly  

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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Great news!!!!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> It's pretty low on the priority list right now. New house. New job. Settling in.
> 
> I promise, I'll start back up soon LOL


It's great to hear all the good news! Also great to hear that Fama's not just a Daddy's dog--she loves her Mom, too!

Yes, we all would love to see the book finished, but that's not as important as LIFE--been there, done that! Family, settling in, and job are more important, we will have to wait, LOL.

Ears--there's a product called Dr. Gold's Ear Therapy that I have used on Orick's ears and so far whatever problems he comes up with, this stuff clears it up. He had an infection, and I was deep into a health crisis with my sister and couldn't get him to the vet. I used the Ear Therapy twice a day for 3-4 days, and his ear cleared right up. I was feeling so guilty because I absolutely could not leave my sister long enough to get him to the vet, but this stuff worked so well, and it's something I buy from the local pet store (also available online). You mentioned once that your wife knows holistic stuff really well (if I remember right), so she probably already has something better, but I have always been satisfied with this, the label claims it is anti-fungal, anti-bacterial, and anti-inflamatory, and seems to work as well as they claim.

Best wishes for your family in your new home!

Susan


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Coconut oil is pretty much the ONLY thing I can use on my guys ears. In fact I always recommend it's use on the forum here.

Another product go to would be ear oil. Combo of mullion, garlic, tea tree vit. e, etc. in olive oil base...almost instant relief.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Great update.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

What a great update  I'm glad she's enjoying herself and settling in well


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Now that she is no longer on active duty, she feels it is okay to snuggle a little... LOL!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Did an improv imprint with pseudo dynamite and birch today. 15 reps on boxes and then moved to 5 reps birch only with a sit cue on the first 2.

Went into the back yard to do an open area search on birch only and she nailed it.

Bring on the ORT 

David Winners


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

GatorBytes said:


> Heat stimulates blood flow/circulation
> Cold packs reduces inflammation. I have never found heat to be beneficial when my back was flared up...


Alternate the hot and cold on your back. 20 minutes of hot then 20 minutes of cold.


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

Great retirement work idea! Are you working with marker s and if so is there an issue with false indication that you have to train through? I have a marker trained fiid crack head that hasn't false indicated but my friend's Mal does.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Her detection work is classically conditioned, but I use markers now, especially during variable reward schedules. She knows the game and the rules, so it was just a matter of adding birch odor to her list of things to respond to.

She doesn't false respond. It has never been a problem for us. In the rare occasion that she responds somewhere there isn't a hide, there is usually an explanation, like contamination or a UXO in the ground.

David Winners


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

We really need more pics.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I took some this morning just for you 

Did a little detection and OB before working on her OUT with the ball (she is a little sticky. I think we fixed it this morning)


























































Here's a pic of my office in it's current state of disarray... got to get busy LOL


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

ah-ha, here are the latest Fama updates! 

Congrats for having her home and having her looking so good David!

She looks really happy being a family member in a home. It's a good thing.



(Do we have a Fama Fan Club set up yet? Count me in please!  )


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's a vid of her and Lu playing. They are becoming pretty good buds.

Pam tried to say "time out" to get them to settle for a second while she goes past, but they don't know what that means LOL.

Fama and Lu playing - YouTube


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think she is adorable without her tail.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ahhhh... There she is! Getting the good life she deserves! Biting the neck of other dogs, who must surrender immediately :rofl: never mind that it is a Cane Corso!

Last, but not least, no longer eating the evil SD.... And it really shows. Look that coat!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's taken a while for Lu to trust her. He's never been intimidated by a dog before, and it was a real shocker to him when Fama came in and took over. He was constantly a bit defensive with her, and the second she got a little too rough, he would snark back and get defensive.

We just watched their interactions carefully and intervened before anything got serious. Through time and guidance their bond is getting pretty strong. Fama even rolls over with him; something I have never seen her do with people, let alone another dog.

It's been cool to watch their relationship change.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Awww I'm so happy she is home and doing so well. And I think it's great you are doing scenting with her, she's going to kick butt at trials! 
My gsds don't make friends with other dogs right away (they're dog friendly, but aloof until they have met the dog a few times) but when they do they often weird the other dog out by neck chewing and body slamming. I love watching them develop relationships, we just moved and my guys are doing it with the neighbors beagle right now. 
So, so, so glad to hear and see how well she is doing


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Here's a vid of her and Lu playing. They are becoming pretty good buds.
> 
> Pam tried to say "time out" to get them to settle for a second while she goes past, but they don't know what that means LOL.
> 
> Fama and Lu playing - YouTube


David,

After the way you have let us all in to come to know Fama, it is so good to see her now, a happy dog doing dog things!

My two try to get games going in the house, but after one threw a nylabone and hit the fish tank, I've had to make the house off-limits for play time!

Do Fama and Lu's games ever progress to being too serious? I watch my Jade because she will look for an opportunity to take my little boy down when I'm not in the room, lol. She does listen, though, and back off when I tell her to, the brat.

Thanks for the update!

Susan

Oh--I just read your other post about Lu trusting her. Those girls, just got to get rough with the boys, lol!


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

Love the pics and video. She has such a good feel about her--classic GSD. You can feel the quality of the dog and her personality.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Headed out with Fama to do some shopping for supplies for my grill project. We went into Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware. I had her on a prong and she was sporting her " Do Not Pet " collar. 

What really surprised me was that she was totally off duty. She no longer walks around waiting for someone to give her a reason to fight. She was totally laid back. We had a good time and she got to meet and greet a couple dozen people. She was perfect, even rubbing up against one lady like a cat. 

The checkout girl at Ace wanted a picture so I had Fama jump up on the counter and sit. The girl threw her arm around Fama's shoulders and they smiled for the shot. Pretty cool. 

I think she's really digging retirement 

David Winners


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

So glad to hear she's doing so well! She deserves a happy retirement!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Headed out with Fama to do some shopping for supplies for my grill project. We went into Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware. I had her on a prong and she was sporting her " Do Not Pet " collar.
> 
> What really surprised me was that she was totally off duty. She no longer walks around waiting for someone to give her a reason to fight. She was totally laid back. We had a good time and she got to meet and greet a couple dozen people. She was perfect, even rubbing up against one lady like a cat.
> 
> ...



This is really wonderful to hear.

I think she is reading you and behaving accordingly. Lowe's grill project sends way different vibes to the dog than checking trash trucks in the Middle East,


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Fantastic!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Headed out with Fama to do some shopping for supplies for my grill project. We went into Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware. I had her on a prong and she was sporting her " Do Not Pet " collar.
> 
> What really surprised me was that she was totally off duty. She no longer walks around waiting for someone to give her a reason to fight. She was totally laid back. We had a good time and she got to meet and greet a couple dozen people. She was perfect, even rubbing up against one lady like a cat.
> 
> ...


 Awesome!!! Sounds like you both had a fantastic outing . So good to hear that Fama is able to relax and enjoy being "retired".


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

This is no longer hips and spine. 
I am starting a new thread!


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