# Maintaining drive/motivation



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> 100% agree. Keeping a dog motivated for 5-7 minutes straight while heeling around without reward is much more difficult than most people can imagine. If it were mindless, I don't think it would take 2 years to train a dog for IPO obedience. Its _all about_ the teamwork. When you're losing points based on absolute precision, there really is nothing "mindless" about it.



I was just asking someone about this a little while ago. How DO yu keep the dog motivated without rewRd?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I was just asking someone about this a little while ago. How DO yu keep the dog motivated without rewRd?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You have to train for it  Conditioning them to work towards the reward and building on the time it takes to be rewarded. All while trying to keep 100% focus on the handler without missing a step in anticipation of getting that reward at some point during that routine. Training the dog to always be on their toes, waiting for it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> You have to train for it  Conditioning them to work towards the reward and building on the time it takes to be rewarded. All while trying to keep 100% focus on the handler without missing a step in anticipation of getting that reward at some point during that routine. Training the dog to always be on their toes, waiting for it.



I see, so they do get rewarded once off the field every time? Or that's random as well?



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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I see, so they do get rewarded once off the field every time? Or that's random as well?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


For me, its always random. I want my dogs to believe that they might get rewarded at any point so that they're attitude stays happy and enthusiastic, rather than bored and just going through the motions.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> For me, its always random. I want my dogs to believe that they might get rewarded at any point so that they're attitude stays happy and enthusiastic, rather than bored and just going through the motions.



And that gets worked up from rewarding for every repetition?
So to simplify it, you reward for every sit, then every other sit, then every 10, then every training, every other training and so on?

Lol yeah I can see how this can take years)))))
Def a lot of work


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I was just asking someone about this a little while ago. How DO yu keep the dog motivated without rewRd?


I think that's one of those questions like "how do you breed a good dog?" that, uh, to put it mildly, does not have a short answer.

I've been working on that question pretty consistently for two years and all's I'm gonna say is: it's complicated. After two years I still know nothing.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Merciel said:


> I think that's one of those questions like "how do you breed a good dog?" that, uh, to put it mildly, does not have a short answer.
> 
> I've been working on that question pretty consistently for two years and all's I'm gonna say is: it's complicated. After two years I still know nothing.


Absolutely. And depending on the dog, it can feel entirely impossible lol.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> And that gets worked up from rewarding for every repetition?
> So to simplify it, you reward for every sit, then every other sit, then every 10, then every training, every other training and so on?
> 
> Lol yeah I can see how this can take years)))))
> Def a lot of work


Well, dogs should enjoy the work too. A lot of what I do with my dogs is self-rewarding, I never had to reward *every* repetition and then slowly back off or have to leave them guessing when a tangible reward is coming in order for them to perform. Most times I use a "reward" as a way to get the dog pumped up with me initially. For example I tug like crazy with my dog Indy as I'm walking into the building for her turn in flyball, in fact it's more like I'm dragging her into the building via the tug toy. Once we start training, she doesn't necessarily get that tug every time and she doesn't need to. Once I pump her up in drive, she wants to do the training, even if she's sometimes wrong and gets a correction. As we are working, I use the toy to release some of the drive that is capped, or in this scenario release some of the frustration that builds when tapping into a dog's prey drive. In a lot of ways it's more about capping the drive than the doing being perfect. I use marker words and verbal cues she understands to communicate whether the behavior was correct or not, and I use the toy reward to adjust the level of drive or provide an outlet for the pent up frustration. Same for agility or when I'm working on Schutzhund obedience. Agility tends to be extremely rewarding for my dog such that the toy is used more for targeting and controlling the physical position of the dog more than needed as a reward. For example if I'm working on the dog driving out of the weave poles at full speed with his head down, I use a toy and throw it out in front while he's exiting the weaves. Or I might use a target with food on it to help train contacts and lure the head down. My dog would run back and forth over an A-frame 100 times with no reward just because he thinks it's awesome but I'll use a reward to guide his body where I want it to go.

Every dog is different and some are easy or hard to motivate. My first GSD did not care about food or toys. She ate them or played with them, sure, but they didn't motivate her to work any harder or faster. She was primarily motivated by my own attitude which made training physically exhausting. If I ran fast and cheered and jumped up and down, so did she. If I was quiet and calmly handled her through the course from a distance, she was correct but there was no spark. Some dogs need a lot more cheerleading.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> Absolutely. And depending on the dog, it can feel entirely impossible lol.


Oh, I know. I _know._ 

But I still try anyway, because this is the dog I've got.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lies, I can believe that a dog will enjoy agility. At least some parts of it and you just need to guide them through it. But since I'm still not too far from a sit lol I will use that as an example)))))

Sitting is not fun for my dog. He will do it but most of the time makes it obvious that he's not enjoying it and I feel like an abuser making him))))) he looks that hesitant. 

So yeah, then I watch the videos of people doing sport and see these dogs doing crazy stuff (heeling to me is crazy stuff) and wagging their tail and looking like they're loving it. 

So something is not connecting in my mind. 
I understand in theory how it works but then I go and try to work with my dog and I'm seeing very diff results. I know it's not him, it's me that sucks. I just don't know how to fix it


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Focus on the overall attitude, not the end result. Don't overthink it, don't ask the dog to perform a behavior if you don't like his overall attitude and drive at that point (or you think he's going to refuse).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is almost impossible to explain online. First step is to build drive…usually by waving something the dog wants and preventing the dog from getting it. You really have to get the dog working in drive. When the dog is in drive, which is done by playing with the dog, teasing it in a way with something it really wants, you basically “trick” the dog into a position you want (like heeling) and the moment the dog is in the position you like, you reward with the thing it really wants. Soon enough, the dog starts equating that behavior with getting a reward. Over time, you extend reward times, you vary them, as you see the dog realize that it has to keep doing that position in order to get the reward it really wants.

The key is thinking of obedience as a game, and not as a chore or a training session. Both you and the dog should be having fun. If you’re working on obedience for 10 minutes, and in your head 8 of those minutes were spent playing…you’ve succeeded. The dog has probably learned something.

But this is one of those things where a trainer helps…someone to critique your ability and your timing. Tell you what you’re doing right, what you’re doing wrong. No one over the internet can tell you that without watching you interact and “train” your dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Focus on the overall attitude, not the end result. Don't overthink it, don't ask the dog to perform a behavior if you don't like his overall attitude and drive at that point (or you think he's going to refuse).



Got it, I will try this. The point is to get him to do it every time or...?

At some point he will need to do it whether he wants to or not. When does that point come?
Or he should always want to?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Martemchik, I have someone who's doing that. It's over video so not the best but I can't get anyone I like here. 

So I do have help, and she already explained all this to me a million times. I just need to hear it in diff ways for it to stick)))))

See, I asked, Lies said something I will use, you said something I will use. That's how I learn. 


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Martemchik, I have someone who's doing that. It's over video so not the best but I can't get anyone I like here.
> 
> So I do have help, and she already explained all this to me a million times. I just need to hear it in diff ways for it to stick)))))
> 
> ...


Have you looking into Fenzi Dog academy classes?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> Got it, I will try this. The point is to get him to do it every time or...?
> 
> At some point he will need to do it whether he wants to or not. When does that point come?
> Or he should always want to?
> ...



Depends on what. Flyball, agility, competitive obedience....stuff like that is supposed to be fun. It's not a safety issue. I don't want my dog to feel obligated to do it, or we choose a different sport.

Things like a down in motion or drop on recall, that can be a safety issue. That sort of behavior I usually train with some compulsion, even from the beginning. But I try to be clear, help the dog understand right away what I want, how to do it right, and what happens when he gets it right. Even with compulsion it should not take long.

Schutzhund/IPO for me is a mixture. Somewhere in between the "fun sport" and "real life". It's not "real life" but is more than just a fun sport designed for any dog to have fun and succeed. It's more of a breed test, more demanding, and is about a dog thinking and working through various types of pressure in various phases.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I just looked at it. It's online? 
I have a very good trainer helping me over the internet. I'd get a good trainer in nyc for in person training if I could. So far I wasn't able to find a balanced trainer here, I had 3 pure force and 2 pure positive trainers. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Depends on what. Flyball, agility, competitive obedience....stuff like that is supposed to be fun. It's not a safety issue. I don't want my dog to feel obligated to do it, or we choose a different sport.
> 
> Things like a down in motion or drop on recall, that can be a safety issue. That sort of behavior I usually train with some compulsion, even from the beginning. But I try to be clear, help the dog understand right away what I want, how to do it right, and what happens when he gets it right. Even with compulsion it should not take long.





Got it, I'm still on safety behaviors. That's why I'm confused lol. I'm like, at some point he needs to come, whether he wants it or not. 

But I see what you're saying. Some things I'm teaching are not safety and I will take your advice on those


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I just looked at it. It's online?
> I have a very good trainer helping me over the internet. I'd get a good trainer in nyc for in person training if I could. So far I wasn't able to find a balanced trainer here, I had 3 pure force and 2 pure positive trainers.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes. It is online. I'm taking an IPO class right now.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes. It is online. I'm taking an IPO class right now.



No, I have all the online help I can ask for)))))
I'm actually doing OK so I'm told lol))))) just would really help to be able to have someone right here once in a while. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If your dog is not really engaged, I'd look for some sort of sport class or club. Don't worry about overdoing the formal training. My puppy has been doing flyball since age 10 weeks and is starting beginner agility and he has yet to take an obedience class. Doing agility, flyball, rally.... these sorts of things will give you more tools for working in drive and being engaged with the dog. Having that attitude makes it a lot easier to train obedience, even when using some heavy compulsion. My adult GSD can take a lot as far as a correction, but most of what we do is fun. It's no fun for me to own or train a dog that has no desire to perform simple behaviors, even though I'm perfectly capable of making him do it every time.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> If your dog is not really engaged, I'd look for some sort of sport class or club. Don't worry about overdoing the formal training. My puppy has been doing flyball since age 10 weeks and is starting beginner agility and he has yet to take an obedience class. Doing agility, flyball, rally.... these sorts of things will give you more tools for working in drive and being engaged with the dog. Having that attitude makes it a lot easier to train obedience, even when using some heavy compulsion. My adult GSD can take a lot as far as a correction, but most of what we do is fun. It's no fun for me to own or train a dog that has no desire to perform simple behaviors, even though I'm perfectly capable of making him do it every time.




Exactly!!! I know I can force him but that's why I'm even asking about this, I want him to WANT to work for me. And that's what attracts me about the sport dogs. 


My dog is motivated at home and when we first get outside. The way my day is setup is that I go out with him once a day at night for 2-3 hours and do training there in between us playing and him running. 

I'm told that this kills drive but that's just how it is))))) I've never skipped the daily outings but I've skipped training at home many times. So almost all our training is done at the park with all these smells and stuff and after he runs a lot and we tug and stuff. 


And when we walk and I ask him to sit before going through the door or at a light - that's when I get the 'butt going down at millimeter an hour'. 


As far as a club, you mean ipo? I emailed them a few times. They're pretty far but i'd go. No reply. No one picks up the phone. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lalachka said:


> Sitting is not fun for my dog. He will do it but most of the time makes it obvious that he's not enjoying it and I feel like an abuser making him))))) he looks that hesitant.


Sitting can be fun if it becomes associated with something he DOES enjoy. I make default behaviors such as sit and down, usually accompanied by eye contact, a requirement for all sorts of things my dogs like. If they know they need to sit and look at me before I'll release them to eat, it's amazing how fast they plant their butts on the floor, and the more of that sort of thing you do as part of routine day to day life, the more ingrained the behavior should become.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh we do that as well for a year or longer and yep, the speed and enthusiasm with which he sits is amazing))))
Also when we train at home and he's hungry. Anticipates all my commands, offers behaviors. 

And then we go outside and I tell him to sit before the door or sit on the stairs so I can look out to the street and see of dogs are there. And omg, I should record this.

So I understand that he won't always want to do what I ask. But then what's the way out?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would also look at Bridget Carlsen's methods. She teaches engagement, enthusiasm and stamina to let the dog know doing repetitive obedience is not factory work.
The dog should drive into the handler for rewards after the marking in position. There are so many things in her program that help handler and dog move forward. If you have a chance to do a working spot at one of her seminars, it is worth it to add some tools to your box.
The methods are fairly common in IPO, but many don't know about them, if they are in the AKC obedience world. 

Another good read is Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt...dogs that can't deal with distractions will learn to focus on the handler with many of the exercises outlined.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I would also look at Bridget Carlsen's methods. She teaches engagement, enthusiasm and stamina to let the dog know doing repetitive obedience is not factory work.
> The dog should drive into the handler for rewards after the marking in position. There are so many things in her program that help handler and dog move forward. If you have a chance to do a working spot at one of her seminars, it is worth it to add some tools to your box.
> The methods are fairly common in IPO, but many don't know about them, if they are in the AKC obedience world.
> 
> Another good read is Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt...dogs that can't deal with distractions will learn to focus on the handler with many of the exercises outlined.





Thank you very much, I will get the book and look into the seminars. Lol probably not. Nothing good makes it to NYC))))


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm really interested in good books about body language. Not just the basic stuff, like a thorough understanding of body language, calming signals, sounds. I want to be able to understand him. 

Anything?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Turid Rugass has some youtubes you can watch...she has written booklets on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj7BWxC6iVs


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Thank you, I read those already. I was hoping for some more))))


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why more, I think Turid explains it quite well with the dogs showing their emotions. What more do you need to understand calming signals/body language? Reading dogs emotions isn't rocket science.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Why more, I think Turid explains it quite well with the dogs showing their emotions. What more do you need to understand calming signals/body language? Reading dogs emotions isn't rocket science.



She does explain it well and I enjoyed reading about it. Now I want more))))) I like this kind of stuff

It's not rocket science but it's not common sense either. I just want to be able to understand every little thing my boy is saying, that's all. On top of the fact that I like reading things like this


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The whole picture is important in why a dog acts the way it does....atmosphere/environment are key in understanding what you observe. 
I also love to puzzle solve dogs behavior when we train. Why is this happening when we are trying to achieve a certain goal. More often than not, the dog has all the answers in their reactions and emotions. Reading isn't the same as experiencing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> The whole picture is important in why a dog acts the way it does....atmosphere/environment are key in understanding what you observe.
> I also love to puzzle solve dogs behavior when we train. Why is this happening when we are trying to achieve a certain goal. More often than not, the dog has all the answers in their reactions and emotions. Reading isn't the same as experiencing.



Yep)))) exactly))))) I really want to understand why he does things. I'm sure that I've misunderstood him many times and confused him. 

This one is not a must for me, just something i'd love to learn one day. I can read him for the most part but many things still puzzle me. And I'm sure lots of times when I think I'm reading him I'm really misreading him. 



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