# Concerned about puppy's temperament



## My Black Shadow (Jan 1, 2017)

I hope you experts can help me with my dilemma. I have a deposit down for a puppy from German working lines. Her father is IPO3 and her mother is IPO1. The breeder matches the pup to the buyer. If I do not want the puppy they will transfer my deposit to a future litter. I really want a pup now – I bought all her supplies and am supposed to pick her up this Tuesday – but I don't want to make a 10-12 year mistake either.

There were about eight puppies there. The highest drive male was purchased to become a police dog. Another high drive pup will be going to a farm to do herding. 

I want a moderate drive pup who will be a pet but will also be easy to train. I would like to do nose work with her as well as obedience. I would also like her to become a therapy dog so we can cheer up residents of nursing homes as well as sick children.

The pup they matched me up with is extremely independent and fearful. She was the only pup who literally ran away from me, avoiding all contact. She scratched the door to get back in the house, and being cornered there I forced an interaction because I had only a short time to evaluate her. She tried to run from me and avoid contact, so I just scooped her up. She was trembling in fear but did not resist. 

I can see she might not be the most trainable. I can give up on nosework and therapy work, but I cannot give up my dream of a German Shepherd loving and adoring me. Do you think she will bond to me, or will she always be independent and aloof? Might she turn into a fear biter? Can a lot of positive training help, or is she likely to stay as she is?

To be fair, this was the first time she was ever outdoors, and her first time ever meeting a person other than the breeder (no socialization - thanks breeder). 

Should I take her? Will she love me? Thanks in advance.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I wouldn't. The pup may be fine in the end, but it is the breeder's responsibility to take the time and make sure the pup gets the attention it needs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would hope the breeder holds her back for further evaluation. Independent puppies are more of a challenge to train. I'd rather have a biddable confident pup.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

My girl is independent and kind of aloof. However, the older she gets and the more we train the more I find her coming up to lay beside me or wanting to get petted instead of just walking on by. Both of my males will lay on top, behind, beside, whatever, they want to try and cuddle and be tight next to us. I have talked to a few others who say that the females they have had were not nearly as affectionate as the males they have had. So if you want an affection dog maybe a male is better.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> I have talked to a few others who say that the females they have had were not nearly as affectionate as the males they have had. So if you want an affection dog maybe a male is better.


Wow, that is the opposite of my two. My boy is social but doesn't mind hanging out a little ways from us and never sleeps on the bed with us. My gal is more slow to warm up to people but with us is a snuggler who sneaks up on the bed at night and shares the couch.

to answer the question: I know it is hear breaking but I'd wait.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My Black Shadow said:


> To be fair, this was the first time she was ever outdoors, and her first time ever meeting a person other than the breeder (no socialization - thanks breeder).


To be fair to this puppy...she was terrified and overwhelmed. And rightfully so. 

First time outside??? What??!!
Never met another person? Were puppy buyer not invited to visit? 

I'm not sure I would want a puppy from this breeder if there is no socialization happening at such a vital age.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I would pass. Do you really want to support that sort of breeder with your hard earned money? Tell them thanks but no thanks. They should be keeping that puppy back to evaluate how she matures, not selling her. 

I realize you want a puppy now, but taking a step back, and finding a new reputable breeder will give you a puppy that will love you AND be able to do everything you want. This forum is an awesome resource. If you provide your location I am sure the members here can recommend reputable breeders to you you can pair you with the right puppy for you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My Black Shadow said:


> To be fair, this was the first time she was ever outdoors, and her first time ever meeting a person other than the breeder (no socialization - thanks breeder).


To me, that would be a big problem right there. Regardless of the temperament of the pup, I would expect a reputable breeder to have exposed the puppies to new people, places, and things by now. The fact that s/he hasn't would concern me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You have to go by your gut feeling and it sounds you already know what to do. Don't let impatience be your guide but stick with your goals. You don't want a 12 year long regret.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

If they are old enough to have their temperaments and drives evaluated - they're old enough to have been exposed to the outdoors. Bad call on the breeder to overwhelm them with so much on the same day. I do not think the assessment was fair, but it is still very telling.

All of that said, how old are the puppies??


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You're looking at your partnership with this dog for ten to twelve years. You have plans of what you want to do with this dog. You want this dog to go out with you as you go for walks, to see family, to work as a therapy dog. You want to do nose work and obedience. All those things are awesome. The puppy you described is not. You want a puppy that is curious, interested in the world around him or her. You want one that isn't afraid of new things, cautious is all right, but not afraid. Read some of the threads here about puppies. Educate yourself on what your puppy should be like. Were all the other pups like this? This puppy should have been exposed to much more than the breeder and his house. Personally I would pass on this puppy. I know that's hard. And even more I would seriously consider waving my deposit if I had to and going elsewhere to find the right puppy. People on here will help you find a good breeder.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The pup they matched me up with is extremely independent and fearful. She was the only pup who literally ran away from me, avoiding all contact. She scratched the door to get back in the house, and being cornered there I forced an interaction because I had only a short time to evaluate her. She tried to run from me and avoid contact, so I just scooped her up. She was trembling in fear but did not resist. 

I would PASS . That is strong avoidance . 

" The highest drive male was purchased to become a police dog. Another high drive pup will be going to a farm to do herding. "

These pups may not be suitable either for these callings . 

The breeder said they would transfer the deposit to another litter .
I would take advantage of this offer --- or walk away entirely.

there is more to breeding than sticking titles together.

has the breeder produced what you want before? Do they have the experience to choose that police or working farm dog ? 

take the time to investigate .


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I'd pass and be willing to write off my deposit as a lesson learned and bullet dodged.

Yes, the breeder was derelict in her job. But, I expect a pup with sound genetics to show more resilience than that. As has been mentioned, that was extreme avoidance. This pup will be no joy to live with in the future.

Anyone can *say* their pup is going to K-9. And frankly, some departments don't know how to select prospects.

You can have a puppy who shows inquisitiveness, happiness at meeting you and a general joy in life. These dogs are just a delight to have in your life.

Don't be thrown by the IPO titles in the pedigree. That's a minimum breeding requirement and in Europe, are sometimes given out like Halloween candy.

There are so many fine breeders producing truly wonderful dogs, it's not necessary to saddle yourself with such a deeply flawed pup. I've worked many times with dogs like this one and it was always heartache for the owners.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I have no doubt that if you treat the puppy fairly and work to create a bond she will love you. That being said the avoidance behavior and fear she was showing is very likely to produce a dog that is going to be very hard to train. How old were the puppies when you visited them? That is really weird that you are the first person they'd seen or first time they'd been outside, unless they were very young when you saw them, I know some breeders won't allow visitors or outdoor time until they are 3-4 weeks old because of fragile immune systems. I feel really bad for this puppy but I would not take her, maybe if she was free or cheap but I would not pay good money for a dog that acted like this and would not want to support a breeder that does not socialize their puppies. Even if it was their first time outside and you were the first stranger they'd met I would still think if the pups had good genetics they would be curious and interested in the new things around them.


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## My Black Shadow (Jan 1, 2017)

The puppy is seven weeks old and will be eight weeks old on Wednesday. The other puppies all seemed wonderful - friendly, confident, outgoing. I don't love this breeder now that I've gotten to know them better, but he has my $600 deposit, and most of his puppies are awesome. I want one of the awesome ones. The breeder assured me she will be loving, but he has money on the line and isn't objective. 

I gave the puppy to someone else to hold and then gave her some affection. She let me put my hand under her chin and kiss the top of her snout many times. The fact that she let me do this gives me hope - however, she didn't lick me back, and that worries me.


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## My Black Shadow (Jan 1, 2017)

I am in Denver. I don't mind using this not-so-great breeder if I can have one of the "good" puppies - the parents are champions, they have good bloodlines, the parents were tested for their hips and did great, etc. But this puppy is not like the others in her litter. If good training and attention could turn her around I'll take her, but if she will always be this way, I don't want her. How can I tell if she can be turned around or not?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think you can call this puppy independent. She was terrified, avoiding a stranger. At eight weeks, they really don't know stranger danger, or shouldn't, socialization or no socialization. 

Was the dam inside? The rest of the litter? The puppy wanted to go back to what she knows. That isn't independence. It is dependence. 

If you trust this breeder, than transfer your deposit. But I would lean on losing it altogether. If the breeder isn't yanking your chain about the police dog and herding dog pup, then, it looks like she is trying to dump the puppy that is shy and fearful on you. 

Can you make this work? Probably. Shy fearful puppies will probably transfer their dependence on the next big constant in their life, you. Will she become a fear biter? Maybe, maybe not. With careful socialization, she can probably be brought through adolescence and young adulthood to a point where you know how to manage her bubble. It is not a matter of the amount of socialization and care in training, it is careful, quality socialization, where you are totally confident and you end each session while she is under her threshold. You will have to use training to build her confidence, her confidence in you and her confidence in herself.

But as for becoming a fear biter, it is individual. It depends where her tolerance level is. When pressed a fearful dog may bite, and others will cry and struggle to get away. Some fearful dogs are fear-aggressive, and some are fear-avoiding and those dogs may never bite. But the important word there is "may." 

The question becomes, are you in for that? Are you willing to pay full price for a puppy that will give you more work than the average puppy you can bring home from the pound? 

This dog will probably always have a comfort zone, and that might mean having certain types of people over will be too much stress. Are you up for that? Are you willing to crate or kennel your dog to have some visitors over, to keep her under her threshold, and to be trustworthy to her. 

Dogs like stability. A fearful puppy needs an owner who is totally stable. If a mouse runs across my floor and I jump up screaming, grab the broom and start wacking away, a puppy with good temperament will look at that and **** its head. It might run out of the room, turn and run back into the room to see what is happening. A dog that has lived with me for a year or more might get up and move out of my way, but they aren't going to be phased because they trust me. If they have good temperament. A dog that is very fearful, will lose their trust in you because you are acting erratically. They might go in the other room, into their crate and hide. When you call them out, they might scrouch and come and you will feel like a total heel, because your dog is acting afraid of you. 

In public, and something happens, a car swerves and you drag your dog out of the way, and she slouches to the ground tail tucked and doesn't recover right away, it is embarrassing.

That's just a possibility. We do not know how bad this puppy is. 
You have reservations. Go with your gut. I am just giving you an idea of what it might be like to have a puppy that is seriously fearful/avoiding. It could be the puppy is perfectly fine, just off because it just got its vaccinations. Sometimes that will throw them off for a day. Could be. 

If I would be going to the next litter, transferring the deposit, I would want to see the litter 2-3 times, maybe at 5 weeks, 7 weeks, and then come and get the puppy at 8 weeks. This will provide some socialization, and I would want to have a pick between 2-3 that the breeder selects as pet-puppies. Otherwise, I probably would just let the deposit go. 

When I picked Rushie 11 years ago, there were two boys: One had beautiful ears up and I liked everything about him, and I was just making my pick when he seemed to hide under the table. In mid swing I swung around and picked Rushie. 

The first day of puppy classes, there was a dog that looked just like Rush, only no tape on his ears. I asked the guy where he got him. The dog's name was chandler, and he was the other puppy. He was shy and the owner asked me about Rush, and I said, no, he is fine. The man said that the people across the road got a female from the litter and her dog was just like his. Rushie went through a lot of classes, and went to shows, and when he was four I sold him to be a service dog. Good dog. I think I dodged a bullet though with him.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My Black Shadow said:


> I hope you experts can help me with my dilemma. I have a deposit down for a puppy from German working lines. Her father is IPO3 and her mother is IPO1. The breeder matches the pup to the buyer. If I do not want the puppy they will transfer my deposit to a future litter. I really want a pup now – I bought all her supplies and am supposed to pick her up this Tuesday – but I don't want to make a 10-12 year mistake either.
> 
> There were about eight puppies there. The highest drive male was purchased to become a police dog. Another high drive pup will be going to a farm to do herding.
> 
> ...


Simple answer - NO

This pup should not be sold to ANYONE - it should be held back, worked with and then placed into a quiet non demanding home at a nominal price with no papers.'


PERIOD


Lee


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Anytime a puppy just runs from me in fear like you described it is a deal breaker period. Pass on that puppy.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I would also pass and ask for my money back. Don't talk yourself into this dog either. Hold out for a different breeder and puppy.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My Black Shadow said:


> I am in Denver. I don't mind using this not-so-great breeder if I can have one of the "good" puppies -


I am not sure if we can help you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My Black Shadow said:


> The fact that she let me do this gives me hope -* however, she didn't lick me back, and that worries me*.


I never owned a German Shepherd that was fond of giving kisses or licking. I would not use that as a determining factor of anything but normal GSD behavior.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Tell the breeder you're not happy with the match and would like to consider one of the other pups. 2 are supposedly spoken for, ask about one of the others.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I never owned a German Shepherd that was fond of giving kisses or licking. I would not use that as a determining factor of anything but normal GSD behavior.


Most GSD puppies, if you pick them up and breath near their face, they will lick you. Most of the time. I had one puppy that would bite me in the nose when I did this, hard. Every time. Boy was I glad when he went to his new home. I told the man, he bites! He laughed.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

selzer said:


> Most GSD puppies, if you pick them up and breath near their face, they will lick you. Most of the time. I had one puppy that would bite me in the nose when I did this, hard. Every time. Boy was I glad when he went to his new home. I told the man, he bites! He laughed.


Lol, our girl Tuke was like this. We have a picture of my wife holding her shortly after bringing them home, it's a good pic, but in the very next instance she had my wife by the nose. I keep that picture on my desk.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I don't think you can call this puppy independent. She was terrified, avoiding a stranger. At eight weeks, they really don't know stranger danger, or shouldn't, socialization or no socialization.
> 
> Was the dam inside? The rest of the litter? The puppy wanted to go back to what she knows. That isn't independence. It is dependence.
> 
> ...


Or you start whacking away with the broom and your pup grabs the business end of it and starts tugging.

An ideal response according to me as a WL person.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have no major expertise with puppies or breeding like a lot of the people who posted here. But I remember the day I met both of my last 2 pups and boy it was nothing like that. One was in an airport cargo terminal because she had just shipped from the breeder. She had just been seperated from everything she knew for the first time and when she got out of the crate she immediately tried to climb up my leg...that's after flying almost all the way across the country as a baby, she wasn't scared she was just lonely and wanted to bond with the first living being she saw which was me. She was doing her happy singing even then, she still happy sings when I come home and let her out.

The boy was let out of a kennel with his litter and all the puppies sort of ran all over the place and he bee lined to me and gave me very enthusiastic ear kisses. Based on the temperament tests and her observations, this was also the same puppy the breeder had selected for me, what nice gravy that he also chose me himself.

If I had arrived that day and found a pup like you described I would have declined, deposit or no deposit.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My Black Shadow said:


> The puppy is seven weeks old and will be eight weeks old on Wednesday. The other puppies all seemed wonderful - friendly, confident, outgoing. I don't love this breeder now that I've gotten to know them better, but he has my $600 deposit, and most of his puppies are awesome. I want one of the awesome ones. The breeder assured me she will be loving, but he has money on the line and isn't objective.
> 
> I gave the puppy to someone else to hold and then gave her some affection. She let me put my hand under her chin and kiss the top of her snout many times. The fact that she let me do this gives me hope - however, she didn't lick me back, and that worries me.


Come right out and tell the breeder this puppy is not acceptable. She may come around with alot of work but will probably always have some issues. If it is that obvious that she has issues and the temperament is not like the other puppies', just calmly tell her that you do not want a puppy with confidence issues or low confidence and this pup is just not acceptable. You are paying the same money as for the pups with better temperaments and that is what you want. Put him on the spot to either give you one of the pups you prefer or a refund. Basically if someone does not like the pup I choose for them - instant refund....I will NEVER let anyone walk away with a puppy they are not smitten with immediately, that leads to long term unhappiness....did it once when a pet home wanted my working home pick male because he was a black sable - no other reason but this pet owner fixation on black sable color...and the pet owner was resentful and she refused to return the dog and it bounced - luckily the second owner reached out to me and I know the dog had a long and valued life as a SAR dog.

Good luck.


Lee


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## labX (Dec 7, 2016)

You are the buyer , I will demand a puppy you like. Also what you describe as activities a good showline or not so high drive puppy will work better.

8 weeks they should have no fear as it's the exploration and fun phase for a pup.

Mine was in a pen of 10 puppies . The byb helped me pick a female out of 3 . But as she was not around when we arrive the farm boys let me play with most of them. They had no fear and wanted to play with every human. When I picked my pup she has never been in a car and we spend a night at a motel. She has never been indoor or in a carpet. She has a ball exploring . She was 2 days shy of 8 weeks on pickup.
She came home played with my 5 and 8 yr old kids and was just full of life .She met all the nephews an cousins who visited to see and play on her first day.

8 weeks is not a fear phase.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Your dream of having a therapy dog is no less valid than anyone else's, so I would not only decline this puppy, I would take the loss of the deposit and find myself another breeder. 
Six hundred dollars is a lot of money, but nothing compared to what you may have to spend on her possible life long issues...

You referred to the other puppies as the good puppies. That says a lot right there. 

Find yourself a breeder interested in matching you up with a puppy that fits your dreams and lifestyle. Good breeders do it all of the time.


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