# I started talking to breeders. Help me choose!



## smyke

Hi All,

I mentioned this stuff in my thread in the Puppy section but then realized that I should have done it here. Sorry for double post.

I sent couple of emails to breeders and got some responses today.

1. http://www.vonbellablazegermanshepherds.com/index.php
Puppies were born today. Parents not listed on the web page (from Germany). Waiting for email with pictures and pedigree.
They are black/red and black/tan.
he is asking $1200 across the board. will give me recommendations but will let me make the final decision as far as choosing a pup. first come first serve (pick). Didnt ask me too many questions.

2. http://shepherdsfromhismerh.com/GermanshepherdPuppiesForSale.html
Still has 2 males and 1 female from F litter. Pedigree can be seen on the website. Looks good to the newbie like myself.
Asking $1800 for boys and $1600 for a girl. He says they are all show quality but sounds like will sell to anybody. didnt ask me too many questions either.
Sent me couple pics of each pup from 2 weeks ago.

What are your thoughts? 
I am trying to keep cool here but these pups are just so darn cute. I will try to upload the pics in a minute.


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## Barb E

This is my advice, as just a "Jill" who owns a pet GSD.

No matter how hard it is, don't be in a hurry or jump in.

My .02¢ is that one of the most important parts of buying a GSD from a breeder is the trust and relationship with the breeder themselves. 

The hope is that the relationship will live on forever - of course that doesn't always mean friends etc, but a person should always be able to contact the breeder of their dog with questions and the breeder should be interested in hearing how the dog is doing and enjoy seeing pictures etc.

I contacted Lee of Wolfstraum at the end of 2007 regarding getting a pup from her. 
I had seen some of her dogs on board(s) and had followed her posts here on this board for 3 years before I contacted her.
Things haven't worked out for me to get the new addition (







‘cause I typed addiction first) yet (For a few different reasons) but I feel that I’ve now built the relationship and Lee and I trust each other, and one of these days my stars are going to get realigned and I’ll get that new addiction…I mean addition!

Happy Hunting – and again, please don’t rush and please don’t jump into anything!!
I also know how much easier said that done that is, I’ve been taping my feet to the floor for a year


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## Lauri & The Gang

Sorry - neither one.

#1. From their website:



> Quote:We have very few of our last litter and are taking names for our next litter due at in November . These will make the perfect Holiday gift.


No RESPONSIBLE breeder sells 'holiday gifts'.


#2.



> Quote:THIS BRIDDING WAS MADE WITH THE BEST SON OF ZAMP TERMODOS. FROM THIS COMBINATION WE EXPECT REALLY DARK PIGMENT & AUTSTANDING QUALITY PUPPIES!!!!


I know there's a chance that English might not be their main language but come on ... SPELL CHECK?!?!

None of their dogs have titles - at least not on the website. Looks like they just import a bunch of bitches and breed them.


There are MUCH better breeders out there.


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## smyke

*PICS*


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## smyke

Thank you both.
See, Lauri, I dont pick up on stuff like that. Thats why I put it up here ASAP before I fell in love with those little beauties in the pictures.









second guy claimed that he showed his dogs here and had success, but apparently not.


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## Liesje

Along with what Lauri said, just remember anyone can say "the best ---- son!" or whatever they want to advertise. IMO that is not at all the best Zamp son, but that's not the only reason I'd look elsewhere.

Like Barb said, you need a good relationship with a reputable breeder before even looking at litters and puppies.


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## pam

What Barb said!!!!!! I spent many months just monitoring websites to see if the number of litters matched claims, etc.--finally narrowed it down to 3-4 breeders who seemed to meet my criteria and began email and telephone contacts. I grilled Lee (von Wolfstraum) and she returned the favor. I have the dog of my dreams from her H litter and Lee is still constantly available just to chat about dogs or to give advice if I ask for it. That relationship is critical should some personal crisis arise (as in death/terminal illness level of crisis) and it becomes necessary to get that pup/dog back to the breeder or for the two of you to find a new home for it together. It is also great just to have a mentor who has the expertise.

Take your time and enjoy the search.


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## windwalker718

I'll second or third the comments about Lee. I've been chatting back and forth with her for about 6 years now, and JUST got my baby boy in July from the "I" litter. Ikon is exactly what I've been expecting, and is maturing to be a great companion as well as a dog with a lot of grey matter (brains). 

I'm so thrilled for everyone that she chose to repeat that "H" litter. The pups from that litter have both looks and temperament. They are working lines, but with excellent conformation as well. These aren't show lines though... You mentioned Zamp litter... which is High Line show. The "H" litter combines Ufo van Guy's Hof with SG Tom van't Leefdaalhof. Both of whom are working line dogs.

Hexe, Halcyon, Hawke all show up on the boards here... if you want to see what they look like/pedigree here's Hexe's (click siblings to see the rest of that H litter)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/562918.html


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## Jason L

Wow, Hexes is beautiful! Love Ikon too. He's one of my favorite pups on the this forum!


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18. You mentioned Zamp litter... which is High Line show. The "H" litter combines Ufo van Guy's Hof with SG Tom van't Leefdaalhof. Both of whom are working line dogs.


so is there anything wrong with that litter itself other than the guy not being able to spell? I am not trying to argue with anybody but simply learn.

sounds like I should find few reputable/recommended breeders in my area (Connecticut) and then make contact as opposed to contacting all of them and then throwing them up here to be reviewed.
Do you have anybody you would recommend?
Other than Lee. Already got that one checked off. thank you.

We are looking to get a puppy within a year. I would like to find the breeder that you are all describing, who will take time to explain things, make sure I get the dog I can handle and give me support in time of need.
But I dont see myself waiting 6 years to get the dog. maybe if I was only looking for a second or third dog but not the first one. I guess just not my personality, or I dont know what I'm talking about.


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## JLOCKHART29

Do your research. When I first started looking at Shepherds I was looking for a working dog. Well on the surface West German show lines looked like working dogs right? I mean they have Shutzhunds titles on both parents and all. It wasn't till I got to digging just a little that I realized that a Shutzhund 3 on a show line is not NECESSARILY the same as a Shutzhund 3 on a working line. Just one of the MANY things I have learned and really only scratched the surface. I went and looked at a litter of show lines and almost bought one before I knew better. It may have been just what I needed but since I want a working dog and not really concerned with looks to a point (actually like sables ) as long as it is healthy and able to work why not load the dice in my favor and get a working line? Before I catch flack I want to make it clear that Show lines can and do work but the emphasis is on looks more so than working lines.
I now have a deposit down on one of Lee's Von Wolfstraum "J" litters which should hit the ground first part on Nov. Lee racked me over the coals questioning me about everything from my family to especially my training methods since I come from a retriever training back ground. Trying to adopt an new born baby from child services would have been less stressful I think!LOL But because she is so careful with her pups that tells me she cares about them and the breed as a whole which actually made me fill a whole lot more secure about my choice rather than the breeder who sells to the first one with the cash. She gave me some names of people who had her pups and in no way tryed to point me to certain people to call or write as many on the forum have her dogs. Nothing to hide. I called the sire' owner and talked to her as well. About not only her stud dog but her thoughts on Lee and Basha (bitch of "J"litter) 
How about health guarantee? Breeding contract,ect? The one I sighned was longer than most home mortgage loans that contained not only the breeders obligation but MINE as well.
All this to say there is more to it than just a pretty face so to speak. I am speaking from a working line stand point but most if not all is relevant to show as well. These pups you mentioned may be great. I didn't really dig in web site but just do you home work and make sure the breeder is more concerned with her dogs than your money.
Prairie Rose (Pam) I did not get to talk to you before I decided on a pup. You post so little I couldn't figure out how to contact you but glad you are happy with full sister or brother of the boy I hope to get! Basha needs to spit out at least two males one of which Lee thinks will work for me and my wife or we will be heart broken!
I pm'ed Windwalker 18 several times. She sure is tickled with Ikon as she should be! Will feel a whole lot better once the litter is on the ground with a couple boys rolling around!


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## JLOCKHART29

Don't just limit your choices to your area. Lee is in Penn. and I am in South Ark. I had a really hard time getting over the idea of someone else chosing MY puppy for me. Trust me. That is not how it is done in Labs and in the South especially. There is just no breeders in my area that have near the quality of pup I was looking for. Talked to police K9's, vets, you name it, no real luck. Hence even more reason to do your breeder research but having a dog flown in just takes a little while to get your mind around but don't limit your choices.


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## smyke

Thanks J
From what I gathered so far is that the show line dog may be better for me since this is my first GSD ever. working dogs require a more experienced handler/trainer. is that correct?

getting pup picked for me and flown in? yeah, thats a tough one. I am not quite there yet, but for reasons stated above (assuming I'm correct) I may not have to look that far out there.

as far as doing my homework? thats what I'm trying to do on here. lets use the guy #2 from my original post. does that pedigree raise any red flags? 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/614382.html
if so what are they. I want to know for future reference what to look for.
He did not rake me over the coals about anything like Lee does so it means he will sell the pup to anybody. would that cause any concern about the pups themselves? (if there are no issues with the pedigree and both parents are OFA certified) or do we look at him as a BYB who does not care about his dogs as much as others do? and that we should not support his breeding program on the same principle that we dont support puppy mills.
Again, these will probably sound like dumb questions but I am so new to this that I want to be able to pick on this stuff down the road.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: smyke
> From what I gathered so far is that the show line dog may be better for me since this is my first GSD ever. working dogs require a more experienced handler/trainer. is that correct?


No, that is not. If you get a nervy showline than you need to be a VERY experienced handler to manage the dog correctly and not to ruin him. What you need is a dog with strong nerves, middle of the road regarding drives and hardness, so he will handle lots of mistakes you will make while raising him and figuring out what training method works for you and your dog. A working line is bred with temperament in mind, not looks, so you have more chances of getting a stable dog in a working line litter. Just my opinion (based on my own experience and observations of other people's dogs).


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## JLOCKHART29

Mike understand I am really new at this myself so PLEASE take what I say very lightly. As to the pedigree link you posted I have zero, none, nada knowledge of the dogs thereselfs or lines but as to the over all pedigree on of the things that I would cull off the bat is the fact that nether parents are OFA or A stamped. They wouldn't be OFA yet as neather are two years old yet and OFA will not grade one younger than two except for a pelmanary xray. This is young to be breeding to start with IMO. While the grandparents on back are A stamped the parents of the litter you have no idea yet. They both may very well OFA excellent but at this point you just do not know for sure. If they were OFA'ed does that mean the pups would all have good hips? Course not just as if both parents failed OFA it doesn't mean one of the pups could not grade excellent. How they are raised, trained, feed all affect the hip and health of the pup and every one has there idea of what affects what more. I would venture to say that very few hard core Schutzhund or show people for that matter would knowingly put the time and money into a pup that both parents failed OFA. When I get this pup it's got a home for life. If it goes down in the hips I will do what ever I cam to keep it alive, happy and comfortable for as long as the dog wants. However I had just as soon not have to do that and loaded the dice as much as I could to insure that. Can it still happen? Sure but the odds are on my side in this case. There are to many litter out there with both parents OFA'ed for me to consider this litter. This is my opinion so take it as just that


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## smyke

Thank you both again. very good input.

As I said earlier these "little" things dont jump out at me and thats why I am throwing those questions out there.

I am so glad I found this forum.









J, I would too want a dog for life and would do anything to keep him/her alive.
In fact I have done it in the past with my boxer who had numerous issues but we kept her alive up to age 16. At some point vet told us we were being selfish but I wanted to try everything I could. we finally made the decision to end her suffering and were going to go to the vet one morning but she did us a great "favor" and we didnt have to make that decision. 

EDIT: Someone just PM'd me asking why I scratched Lee as my potential breeder. It was not my intention to imply that at all. when I said "checked off" I meant as someone with good references and that I will definitely keep her in mind.
My apologies Lee.


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## Jason L

Agree with Oksana about working line dog. IMO nerve is more important than drive. A high drive dog that is clear headed and has rock solid nerve is going to be easier to handle than a nervy dog with low drive. 

As for shipping, you already know about my feeling concerning shipping pup. All I can say is once you expand the horizon, it really gives you a lot more options and will make the search for the perfect pup easier.









A guy at my SchH club even flew up to Indiana to see the litter and pick his own pup (with plenty of input from the breeder of course) - so that's always an option.


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## twogsdoh

I have been chatting with Lee(Wolfstraum) for about a year and a half now and I cant say enough nice things about her!! She really knows her dogs pedigrees inside and out and is very honest with people about what her dogs produce. If a pup from one of her litters has any issues she will tell you. IMO, she is not a breeder who just wants your money, as I think someone else mentioned. A good, reputable breeder WILL, IMO, grill perspective puppy buyers about specific aspects of the perspective owners lifestyle. This is not meant to be offensive at all but a reputable breeder cares about what kind of home their puppies go to and only want to best for them. Some people get all bent out of shape about all the grilling from breeders. Id rather get a puppy from a breeder who cares enough to grill each and every potential puppy buyer than one who just takes your money and could care less about the puppy once it leaves their place.
Also, a reputable breeder will be there to take your pup/dog back if some unforeseen circumstance comes up which renders you no longer able to care for your pup/dog and offer lifetime support to the pupu buyer. 
I have been watching the progress of Lee's H litter von Wolfstraum and I really like what I have seen so far. One of the H litter pups, Haven v. Wolfstraum, belongs to a couple that are on this board and with whom I train with. 
Yesterday I was at the Mideastern Regional Championships in Columbus,OH, which Lee also attended, and I had the great opportunity to meet the dam of the H & J litters, Basha, as well as the dam of the I litter, Csabre and a pup from the I litter I-Bengal. All are very nice dogs and I am very glad the I had the opportunity to see Lee again and meet the dogs. Thanks, Lee!!!
I have been in contact with some owners of von Wolfstraum pups/dogs and all had only nice things to say about Lee and all are very happy with their pups/dogs that they have.
Good luck in your search!


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with ALL of the above, I just wanted to add, I know some and especially first time owners, can be leery of 'flying in' a dog and/or having the breeder pick a puppy for them . 

I have gotten two puppies site unseen (well pictures of course) from breeders I hadn't had alot of previous contact with, they turned out to be both wonderful dogs, that are exactly what I wanted. I gotta say, both times I WAS a nervous wreck, but I think that's normal,,in the end I had nothing to be nervous about..

So just wanted to throw that out there, it's good to NOT limit yourself , take your time and see the differences in dogs out there.

Happy shopping !


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## Barb E

I agree Diane about the shipping.
I don't want to limit myself to Or/Id/Wa and parts of CA. 
Shipping a pup comes back to trusting the breeder.

By the way Diane - I think it's been awhile since we've seen Masi pictures


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: smykeThanks J
> From what I gathered so far is that the show line dog may be better for me since this is my first GSD ever. working dogs require a more experienced handler/trainer. is that correct?


Take a look at this video. This pup is 1yo and the handler/trainer is only a KID. (Both the owner, her father AND the breeder are board members.) The trainer/owner is only 15YO!!! (She is 15 now, she was obviously younger when she started training this puppy.)

This is a WORKING line puppy, from Chris and Tim Wild

Breeders website 

Littly Ray video.


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## JakodaCD OA

Barb that darn dog doesn't stay still long enough for me to get anything clear )))) 

Mike, I'll send ya Masi for a couple days, she may change your mind about ANY dog )) just kidding, I love her to death)

I wouldn't rule out ANY line of dogs, there are exceptions to every rule, and there are ALWAYS a puppy or two from any line/litter that would fit into your lifestyle and expectations. THe key is, finding them)))


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## smyke

I definitely dont have a problem with the breeder grilling me, but quite frankly I dont have a problem with them not doing it either. at least for now. Again, this is my first time.

Very well behaved puppy on that video. 

so there is no "rule of thumb" whet it comes to these things? and the only way for me to get the right pup is for them to pick it for me?

at first I will want to check out breeders that are closer to me (driving distance of 2-3 hours). flying the pup in may be out of the question (for now at least) unless I do find the breeder that I will be able to trust 100%. that will take time though and I dont know if I will be able to wait that long.
whet it comes to looks I would prefer tan or red saddleback. I know you are not supposed to pay that close attention to color but hopefully that does not make me the bad person.









Sure Diane send her up. Can she handle a 4 year old girl petting her to death?


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## Dainerra

I'll send you Rayden! lol he's used to being mauled by kids. dressed up in hats. made to leash walk through the living room... you name it.


the reason that a good breeder is the best one to choose the pup for you is that they know the litter inside and out. they will also know if none of the pups on the ground are right for you. they've been around them pretty much 24/7 since the day they were born. How pups act around the new people coming to visit might not be how they are every day.

Plus, having much more experience working with dogs, they know what will fit best with a first time owner vs a more experienced or working home. which pups are toy motivated, or by food. which one is more independent and which is more shy. all of those things might not even be noticed by someone who is seeing a cute pile of furballs for the first time!

there is a method to the madness!


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## Dainerra

forgot to add. that is the reason you want a breeder that grills you with questions.

past experiences. future plans. do you have kids. rent or own. fence or not. other pets? city or country? they should want to know your every hope and dream for the dog. 
the more they know about you, the better chances of finding the perfect puppy for you!


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## Barb E

I don't think there is a thing wrong with a color/pattern preference.
In some cases it can make the search for a breeder more difficult since it usually rules out a section.

Red/tan and black for the most part will mean West German or American showlines. There are some working line black and tans but the majority of that color/pattern is seen in the showlines.

You might contact Dee at Haus Mansfield ( http://vomhausmansfield.com/Home_Page.php ) she's in NH and though she doesn't have any pups on the ground she very well may have some good leads for you. She's also a member of this board but I don't remember her user name. If I was looking for a showline she would be very high on my list of breeders to speak with.


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.You might contact Dee at Haus Mansfield ( http://vomhausmansfield.com/Home_Page.php ) she's in NH and though she doesn't have any pups on the ground she very well may have some good leads for you. She's also a member of this board but I don't remember her user name.


She is GSDextrodiniare on the forum.


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## Lauri & The Gang

> Originally Posted By: smykeThanks J
> From what I gathered so far is that the show line dog may be better for me since this is my first GSD ever. working dogs require a more experienced handler/trainer. is that correct?


Not necessarily.

When a breeder breeds a litter they HOPE for the best puppies. What they get is usually a mix of great, good and ok puppies.

Mauser is from working lines but he is NOT what I would call a high drive dog. He would have been an acceptable puppy for a first time GSD owner that had done their research AND had the breeder for help with questions. A couple other pups in his litter ARE great working dogs with TONS of drive. When I contacted Trish about Mauser I told her all about our home life and what we were looking for in a dog and asked if she thought Mauser would fit that.

If he had been super high drive she would have said NO.

You do NOT want to end up with a pup that doesn't fit in your lifestyle - and that is why you really DO want the breeder to 'grill you' and to select the pup for you. Maybe more than one pup in the litter would be good for you so the breeder would allow you to chose from them.

The breeder has spent 8 weeks with the pups up to the point where they are ready to go home. A GOOD breeder will know each pups personality and potential, their good points and bad and will be able to determine which pup is right for which owner.

Someone that sells a pup to whomever has enough cash is NOT a good breeder.


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## WiscTiger

Would be nice if both website owners from the first post in this thread checked their spelling.


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## Jason L

+1 what Lauri said. 

A breeder knows the sire and the dam, she knows the line, she has watched the pups for 7-8 weeks. She knows the pups. Compare that to a person coming in from the outside to pick the pups. What makes a buyer who doesn't know much about the pups pick one over the others? Cuteness? Look? Why pup happen to be more cheerful and come to play with you on that particular day? To me, the riskier play would be to go to a breeder who lets you pick the pups yourself. IMO the breeders who do that are just out to sell dogs.


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## wolfstraum

gee whillikers - I am blushing! 

The original poster seems to be leaning towards show lines - I know the Wilmoth's have a litter on the ground (www.wilmothdogs.com) - they own Griff, the sire of the H and J litters......

Also, Charlie Starr at Drache Feld is very critical of his pups for top level show competition and breeding, and is great to deal with for a companion pup - I know I have referred quite a few people both personally locally and here on the board to him who have gotten great looking black and red/tan pups from him

Lee


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## smyke

Lee, I really dont know what I'm leaning towards as far as lines go. going by posts in this thread there is no rule of thumb and only pros like yourself can help greenhorns like me out.
Unless your assessment (show lines) is based on what I said I was looking for in a dog.

I will be contacting all the breeders mentioned on here. I will start with the ones closest to me. sticking with the original plan for now.








All your input is greatly appreciated. 
Keep them coming.


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## Liesje

You could probably visit a dozen different breeders and be happy with a puppy from any, as long as they are reputable breeders who put the dog's interest above all else.


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## smyke

thats what I am trying to do here Liesje.
get some recommendations on here and give them a shout. see what happens.


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## Stephanie17s

Mike, I agree with what Lies said. My only advice would be to find a breeder than you are comfortable with, and that you trust. You will be getting a member of your family from them that hopefully will be with you for many, many years. You don't want to spend all of those years wishing you had waited for the right puppy, and dealing with countless issues that could arise (health, behavioral, etc). It can be extremely tempting, but if I could go back a few months and do it all over again, I would have waited. I love my dog, but who knows what the future can bring. I wouldn't trade her, just the situation. 

I myself am already looking for a breeder for my next dog. I am trying to focus mainly on the specific breeding programs, the breeder, then the dogs. IMO, you could have the greatest GSD in the world, but if your breeding program is crap, you are setting up the puppies for disaster, and no one likes disaster









Good luck with your search!


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17s I am trying to focus mainly on the specific breeding programs, the breeder, then the dogs. IMO, you could have the greatest GSD in the world, but if your breeding program is crap, you are setting up the puppies for disaster, and no one likes disaster


 The only question is how you are going to evaluate a breeding program and decide if it's crap or not without focusing on the dogs first and arming yourself with knowledge of genetics, pedigrees, canine behavior etc. I am all for researching and trusting the right breeder but for me dogs come first, and if I like the dogs I will look into their breeder.


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## Stephanie17s

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17s I am trying to focus mainly on the specific breeding programs, the breeder, then the dogs. IMO, you could have the greatest GSD in the world, but if your breeding program is crap, you are setting up the puppies for disaster, and no one likes disaster
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only question is how you are going to evaluate a breeding program and decide if it's crap or not without focusing on the dogs first and arming yourself with knowledge of genetics, pedigrees, canine behavior etc. I am all for researching and trusting the right breeder but for me dogs come first, and if I like the dogs I will look into their breeder.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm just taking a different route than you







I want to know why the breeding is occurring. What sports are the dogs participating in? What the hopes and goals that the breeder has for the puppies? Are they breeding in a way that I agree with (back to back litters without cause, has all health testing been completed, and are the results what I want? etc) If the answer to these questions is not something I agree with, why bother putting in the time researching specific dogs and pedigrees? However, I can see where you stand. There is always a chance that the program will everything you hoped it would be, and the dogs are not quite up to your standard. It all has to be researched in the end, I suppose it's just how you choose to get there.


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## GSDElsa

Mike,

Since what you are really interested in is a more "companion" GSD, have you considered going through a breed rescue at all? You can find both anything from a puppy to a young adult to and oldie! Plus, most of these dogs are fostered in a home situation, so they really get a feel about the dogs personality. 

Yes, some of the dogs are a complete mess and need a lot of work, but you can find some amazing dogs. A rescue near me even has had the NY State Police and the Penn State Police adopt dogs and turn them into police dogs!! So they are definitely out there.

From the year and a half I spent looking at both breeders and rescues, I think that a good, reputable rescue can be just as good at evaluating dogs as a breeder. The last thing a rescue wants is for a dog to get returned to them, so they are usually very intersted in finding the right fit. The application we filled out for Birght Star was much more detailed than almost any breeder's that we found. 

It's just a suggestion, but rescues can be great dogs!! From SAR to Sch to companion, they can do it all!


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## smyke

That was actually my first thought Elsa, however not knowing where that dog came from I dont want to take a chance. There are no guarantees in life but we figure with the pup we will know who the parents are and more/less what we are getting. 
We have two kids and we want them growing up with the dog and have it around for as long as possible. with the pup from reputable breeder those chances are greater. and we want a pup so we can go through all the stages of its life and be used to the constant "abuse" from the kids. with the rescue you just dont know. 
I may be wrong here but thats my feeling about it.


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## GSDElsa

Mike,

I guess I have a different opinion. I think a lot of the times when you're getting an 8 week old puppy, you really don't know how they are going to turn out. On here, there are a few examples of even 5 or 6 month old puppies developing aggression towards kids, no matter what efforts are made to avoid it. Certainly, all the things you mentioned lesson those chances, but with a puppy there really is no guarantee that it will turn out a certain way. 

A lot of rescues really put the dogs through the ringer for temperment testing. A lot of them are fostered in homes with small children. And a lot of them you DO know their background and they are owner surrendors because of a death or sudden illness. Not all the time, but you can find them. It's not like getting a dog from a shelter where you are walking through rows and rows of dogs stacked in kennels barking their heads off. 

Also, just like with a reputable breeder, rescues will take the dog back should some unforseen thing occur. 

Certainly, don't do something you're not comfortable with, but there are a lot of rescues on this board that are amazing with kids. There are a lot that aren't. But the same thing can be said about dogs who came from breeders that were supposed to grow up with great temperments. If you take your time and do your research, you have just as great a possibility of getting a great dog from a rescue as from a breeder.


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## smyke

Do you know any "good ones" in my area? Connecticut and surrounding states?


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## smyke

So I heard back from another breeder I contacted: http://www.vongrafenstein.net/
Any thoughts on them?
Looking at the parents of the upcoming litter this is exactly how I pictured my GSD.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have heard of her, but again, I'm not "up" on west german lines, I am sure Kandi of Rokanhaus knows of them, I would email her (she's a poster here on the board) and ask her opinion)


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## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: smykeI definitely dont have a problem with the breeder grilling me, but quite frankly I dont have a problem with them not doing it either. at least for now. Again, this is my first time.


I'm sure someone picked this up already but I think this says so much about the breeder. A responsible breeder loves the breed. He or she understands there are hundreds of dogs in shelters for every available home. They will go to great lengths to make sure any dog they produce, who's life they are responsible for, does not end up in an unhappy situation, and that "grilling" is evidence of that commitment.
In short, the motives of the breeder are pretty clear based on whether or not they care where they place their puppies.
If a breeder cares don't you think that she'll go to greater lengths to do it right?
If a breeder doesn't care, do you think she'll spend all that time researching bloodlines, training to get to know her dogs, all that money on health screenings to help ensure the best possible outcome?
A German Shepherd (of any type) with the correct temperment is a joy to own. A nervebag can be a nightmare. 
Choose well, and eliminate a breeder that doesn't seem to care where the pups go.


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## smyke

Thanks Lisa
Thats what I am learning here and will want to talk to the breeders recomended on here. and when I say grilling I dont mean it in a bad way. I totally understand those breeders care about their puppies and want to do the right thing.

I spoke to Kandi this afternoon. Very nice lady. she gave me couple contacts in Massachusetts that I will call and see what happens.


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## nh_greg

> Originally Posted By: smykeThanks Lisa
> Thats what I am learning here and will want to talk to the breeders recomended on here. and when I say grilling I dont mean it in a bad way. I totally understand those breeders care about their puppies and want to do the right thing.
> 
> I spoke to Kandi this afternoon. Very nice lady. she gave me couple contacts in Massachusetts that I will call and see what happens.


I was going to recommend Kandi... I have 2 of her dogs and they're both great. 

Greg


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, I don't completely disagree with your assessment that you're fine with being grilled or not. Some people are more subtle in their approach than others & glean a great deal of info in their routine chats with potential buyers. 

There are, IMO, few hard & fast 'rules' in selecting a breeder & a wealth of guidelines. Be very clear on *what* you want/<u>need</u> & why you want(need) it. Vigorously assess every breeder you're interested in as to whether they meet your essential no compromise criteria. 

Temperament, especially reliability with people, & particularly children, is my non-negotiable sticking point. Because of this, I don't want strong guarding behavior or an unduly suspicious, trigger pawed dog. My guys must be uber tolerant & difficult to rile or stress. My daughter is grown but my neighborhood is rife with children & I refuse to have a dog that isn't excellent with children. 

Frankly, I feel about this like many people feel about 'working drives'. While I know many dogs (including some GSDs) aren't naturally good with children I find that shocking, somewhat abberant & for me personally intolerable. (Meaningful protection involves a great deal more than 'bite the bad guy'). Note that naturally good with children doesn't negate the need for thorough ongoing socialization. It simply means that during socialization the pup shows a natural affinity for children, quickly learns to be gentle & considerate with them & takes to them like kittens to warm milk.


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## smyke

Yes Ruby, that is exactly what I need/want in a dog. I would want the dog to be protective of our family too but I am sure that will come naturally as well. Being good with children is MOST important.

any thoughts on dogs from this breeder as I mentioned? here is the link to the upcomming litter. parents look OK to me, but we all know how much that means.







and they should produce a coloring I actually seek.
http://www.vongrafenstein.net/VonGrafensteinPuppiesForSale.html

Sue actually sent me a questionaire before even talking to me so that is the first difference I noticed between her and other breeders I referenced in my original post. She may grill me good. LOL


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## Liesje

No obvious red flags to me, haven't heard of the breeder. Maybe ask them to put you in contact with people who own progeny from their dogs, so you can get a feel on how they interact with kids?


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## smyke

yeah, everything looks OK. 

I will contact her to see if we can meet the parents and also dogs from previous litters. That is as long as i pass the screening. keeping my fingers crossed. 

what should I ask her?


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, some dogs are 'naturally protective' & others really aren't. My Siberian Huskies simply lacked the necessary suspicion. They didn't believe in such things as 'bad people'. Blood would run in rivers before my Cochise would have realized it wasn't just a game. He was incredibly smart in many, many ways, but not a natural protector. Brighid, my IW bitch, was equally trusting.

Da Vinci, my 1st Irish Wolfhound, was very mildly, very appropriately protective. I wish I could have bottled his protectiveness. He wasn't suspicious so much as discerning.

Sam, my 10 yo GSD bitch, alerts(silently) & watches closely, but has never done anything. Nor has she had reason to, so I'm uncertain if she's protective or merely aware. 

Djibouti hasn't shown any signs of being other than universally trusting. That could change as he's not yet 2 & it's not something I encourage. IF he's somewhat protective, fine. IF not, that's all right, too. He's (IMO) perfect regardless.

Note that any large dog provides an effective deterrent. Unless there's an extremely compelling reason to go after *you* (the crown jewels, a vendetta or hired killing) criminals will look elsewhere just in case they bite. IMO, 2 provide more than twice the deterrence of 1 b/c the baddies know they've still got a dog to deal with even if they've killed/immobilized the other dog. Double ditto 3 or 4.

My neighbors clamber on their porch shaking whenever I bring Djibouti out despite my assurances that he's safe & friendly. They will verrrrry cautiously let their kids pet him shouting out precautions about his head, tail, body that are ridiculous & unnecessary. 

People are convinced my dogs would protect me with their lives, which is enough to keep 'em away. I reinforce this by making it clear I have nothing worth stealing, not even a tv. That's not entirely true, but a worthwhile additional deterrent.


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## smyke

You are absolutely right. the size of the dog is enough for some people. If it turns out that the dog has no protective tendencies I will not mind. as long as its healthy and does not eat my kids. LOL I will be OK.


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## smyke

How about this breeder?
http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/

also has nice dogs and I dont see anything that jumps out at me in the negative way.


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## JKlatsky

This is an Am-line breeder, with dogs geared towards AKC conformation showing, despite having used some German dogs in their program. So if you were looking more towards German show...this is not it. 

I don't know much about Am-lines so I'm sure someone who knows more can give you better information, but it looks to me like they are successful in their chosen venue and are actively competing with their dogs in conformation. They all also appear to be OFA certified.

However. And this is just me...It's a LOT of dogs. They list 20 females and 9 males. While I can see that some are co-owns and do not live with the breeders, it still seems like a lot. I prefer a smaller operation.


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## onyx'girl

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1212202#Post1212202
Smyke,^^ This thread may help you decide on the structure of what you'd like in your new family member...


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, if you like the looks of the dogs email/phone the breeder & get some feel for whether their dogs are right for you. Listen carefully for 'hidden answers', waffling or responses that are too good to be true. Have your questions & concerns prepared & written down before calling. IF you're still interested, arrange a visit. 

Note, do not rush to look at puppies. Puppies are adorable & will invariably steal your heart. (They tug at my heartstrings & I'm not that much into 'em!) You're buying a puppy, but eventually you'll have a <u>do</u>g whose potential is intimately, irrevocably linked to his genetics. Every nightmare, spooky, snappy, fearful, aggressive dog was once an irresistibly cute pup.

JKlatsky, I agree that it's a lot of dogs. That would be a point of concern with me rather than an automatic disqualification. I know a lady who successfully managed over 30 IWs & have met other people that couldn't handle 1 well mannered, aging Toy Poodle. I'd definitely want to visit & look around at how they're maintained.

Mike, consider sending a pm to Andaka, as well. She's active in ASL, knowledgeable, very fair minded & might have valuable info on the breeder & his/her dogs.


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## smyke

I dont think they have any puppies that are available right now. And I know about looking at pups, I would take them all home if I could.









I will have to make the list of my questions because every time I call someone seems like I am forgetting something. 

As far as what I want? see, thats the problem that I couldnt tell you. I want a dog that will be healthy, will be a certain color black/red or black/tan and if its a working or show dog I dont know enough to disqualify either. Its been suggested to rely on the breeder to tell me what will fit my needs based on them interviewing me.

_I already posted it in my puppy thread so apologies for double post_
Another option just came up: one of the breeders recommended to me has a 2.5yo male that came back to her as a victim of the divorce. What are your thoughts on that route? This is exactly the way I imagined my GSD but was really thinking about a pup. now here it is and I am torn. I dont know if anything would come out of it since I am exchanging emails with the breeder but here he is:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/521356.html
dog in the pedigree is the sibling of this hunk below.

















Isnt he beautiful?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

He is. That framing makes me think I have some eye disorder. There is framing right?









This is just me not knowing stuff and asking people who do...is he half working/half (German) show?

His eyes are gorgeous. In this situation, you need to ask a lot of questions to see what he's done in his home, what kind of socialization, when and for how long, etc. just like you would a dog from an owner surrender. I don't know if owner surrenders stretch the truth in breeder returns like they do in rescue, so I will let the breeders answer that!


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## smyke

I know Jean. we would have to do a lot of homework before deciding on it but I am hoping that the breeder would help me with that as well. as soon as she emailed those pics I replied with the explanation of my situation and requested her opinion on the matter. Here is what she told me about him so far: _I have
an older male available from my N litter who was sired by Kandi's dog Hawk.
He is a 2.5 year old male that lived in the house and is good with cats kids
and loves to play ball all day long. He came back to me as the product of a
divorce. _
obviously I have not decided on it yet but it is intriguing especially since few people recommended rescue and that would be sort of like it.









My head is spinning. I think I will go to bed now. LOL

And yes, there is a frame around those pics.


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## BowWowMeow

That is one good looking dog! I would make a list of questions to ask and if get the answers you want I would go for it. There will be no trouble bonding and it will be a lot easier than having a puppy. 

Apparently I've gone sour on puppies since I keep recommending that people adopt adults. I think I fostered one too many.


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## Liesje

Mike, if you are open to not an 8 week old puppy, I think it would be a great start. I got my first GSD (my first dog), the same way (as an adult from a breeder, her original home did not work out). I think you are right to talk with the breeder and not rule the dog out. At 2.5 years the dog is basically mature, which means you will know exactly what you are getting. You can work with the breeder and evaluate how the dog responds to you and your family and not worry about a 180 in temperament as can possibly happen with a puppy.


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## Jason L

Good looking boy. I assume he is near you?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks. Thought my eyes were going!

It WOULD be sort of like it. 

With reputable rescue the dog lives in a foster home for evaluation and whatever else for a few weeks or more and then the applicant, who has been screened and visited so the whole picture is there, is matched to the best possible dog after all those factors are examined. 

So here the breeder would be like a foster home and would be grilling







you to get the most information possible to see if you really were a match for this dog. Like do you have a Chuck-it? 

That's why the home visit is such a nice part of the process-you can picture - or definitely not sometimes - a certain dog in that home.


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## RubyTuesday

> Quote:That is one good looking dog! I would make a list of questions to ask and if get the answers you want I would go for it. There will be no trouble bonding and it will be a lot easier than having a puppy.


Drooool & dittoDittoDITTO. Also dibs if you don't want him(jk)

Check him out thoroughly but check him out FAST. Nice adults from decent breeders don't last long. Unless the breeder is a putz it's in his/her interest to be scrupulously honest & upfront with you. IF the breeder wasn't interested in taking the dog back & placing it responsibly s/he could have simply refused. (Ask any of the numerous rescue people just how often that happens.)

Any smart, knowledgeable breeder that had a dog returned with serious health/behavior issues would assess, rehab & only then re-home the dog if possible. Alternatively, if necessary, he'd be held, loved & humanely pts. 

My 1st Irish Wolfhound was a 5 mo rescue that was 'the product of divorce'. He was house trained, well mannered & an over all lovely guy who gave me 10.5+yrs of pleasure. (He lived a bit past 11, an amazing age for an IW!) When a marriage breaks up, often neither party can afford the house & are forced to give up their dog(s), so it's not an unlikely scenario. 

ALSO...2 dogs are about 4X as good as merely 1. Seriously. IF you get an adult you can still look towards getting a pup in another yr or 2. The additional time will only make it easier for everyone, especially the kids.


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## RubyTuesday

> Quote:Apparently I've gone sour on puppies...


LOL. I must admit, I like puppies (sorta). They're goofy, heartwarming bundles of need & greed. But nothing compares to the relationship one has with a mature adult.


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## RubyTuesday

I think the 'framing' is vignetting from either the lens or lens shield.


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## smyke

He is about 2-3 hours away from me so I can go there and meet him. I would take the whole family to check him out.

Breeder was recommended by Kandi from Rokenhaus . She said this lady would be one of the only 2 breeders she would recommend in New England. So she must be good. Plus she is a veterinarian so that would be helpful as well. 
I will have to heavily rely on the breeder to evaluate him. I'm a newbie and can mostly go by gut feelings at this juncture.

I emailed her again. she will think I'm crazy. LOL
if he does match up to us well we will go for it.


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## MaggieRoseLee

That dog is gorgeous and I would DEFINITELY be interested in him if he's available. 

Problem with puppies is they are all cute and adorable, with possible problems cropping up as they grow (health and temperment). Advantage of an older dog (and this male is really quite young) is that you'll be able to see what you have, health and temperment wise right away.

I'd go look at him and talk to the breeder for sure.


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## maverickgsd1

From reading all your post you really need to decide what you want, 
I have a german/show line and hes the best dog ive ever owned. Of course I talked and met with the breeder everytime she was at a show close enough for me to drive to. We became very good friends and I waited 4 years till she bread a certian dog of hers. 

She has 2 pups now that wont be ready till Nov. There black sable in color and if thats what I want id be all over the pup. 

I also have a co-owned working dog that I do sch with he has amazing drive but would be way to much to handle as a house dog. I guess what im saying is we all have been in the spot you are in and dont rush into something just because you want a GSD right now. 

If you find a breeder that you like but dont have any pups dont rule them out. Build a relationship with the breeder and wait and if it takes them a year or so to have the pup you want so what? Find a breeder thats close enough to drive to with in reason and heck maybe if you ask they would allow you to come out and do some work around the kennels so you can learn more about the breed. 

Good luck, im in the process right now at getting another GSD but the breeder im looking at wont have pups until sometime in 2010 but im in no hurry and I like the breeder and have answered ALL my questions so I feel confident in the breeder and what shes doing with her dogs so im willing to wait.


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## JakodaCD OA

I say definately check the older one out, take the kids ))

Also she may be willing to let you try her out on a trial basis, (and most are readily willing to do this) she sounds like just what your looking for, especially the good with kids/other dogs part. 

And since this is your first gsd, I totally agree with Lies, she is at the age you know what your getting, health wise, temperament wise. You don't have to go thru those 2 am potty breaks, worry about housebreaking etc..

I say, definately check her out,,

As for Totana Piper hill, I am quite familiar with them, they are about 15 minutes from me and I have been to there kennel..The Lopez's have been into gsd's for MANY years, they do have a majority of am lines and show in the breed ring, but also have been using german dogs the last few years. While they may have alot of dogs, they do alot of things with them, they have good temperaments and the ones I know of , have good longevity to them.

They are NOT a puppymill by any means, they have a beautiful facility, she is a judge, they just love their dogs and have done very well with them.


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## JakodaCD OA

oops and I see "she" I was referring to is really a "he"...) and he is Gorgeous )


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## Jason L

Good luck Mike and I hope everything works out. Definitely take the kids and see how he is with them. Good looking guy!


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## smyke

Thank you all for your input. I am waiting for the breeder to email or call me back to see if we can move along and start figuring it out.
I explained the situation to my 7 year old son and now he wants that dog. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. LOL
When we all go to see Geist (thats his name) they will not want to leave without him.


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## GSDElsa

Kudos for considering an adult from an "unwanted" home. It is like a real rescue. Because if the breeder wasn't good and took the dog back, it probably would have ended up in a rescue or maybe even *gasp* a high kill shelter. 

And like Ruth, I'm not all about puppies these days! My mom's most recent dog is an adult rescue, as is Elsa....and all I can think is, what is the novelty of puppies again??? Yeah, they are still the cutest things ever, but it's sooo much nicer having an adult around!!


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## SunCzarina

Hubba hubba! Do your home work, get on the phone with the breeder and talk for an hour before you make the long trip with the boy who's going to want to take that gorgeous dog home. I have a pair of young boys myself, when they want, they want!



> Originally Posted By: smykeI emailed her again. she will think I'm crazy. LOL
> if he does match up to us well we will go for it.


No she won't. She'll be happy to talk about Geist some more to see if he's a good fit for you.

I totally agree with MaggieRoseLee, older dogs are much easier than puppies. While puppies are adorable, they pee and poop all over the house, when they arent' sleeping. They are a lot more work than a young adult. 

They aren't so cute when they're ripping the pants off your child!


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## smyke

she emailed me to tell me she will call me today or tomorrow to discuss things. 
I am on pins and needles here. LOL

My wife tells me I am not much different than my son. Like you said Jenn, when I want I want.








I probably have to take the chill-pill, relax and take it easy.


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## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: smykeLike you said Jenn, when I want I want.


Ha, I'm the same way! My hubby calls it having a bug up my butt about something.


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## SunCzarina

I really hope he works out for you. A breeder that would take a 2 1/2 year old back will be there for you when/if you get him home. 

Do you want to run your questions by everyone here (or did I miss that part)?


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## smyke

LOL 
yes I would need help with questions to ask her so please feel free to chime in.
things that come to mind right now:
How is he with children? she already said he is good but still
Is he healthy?
Is he trained?
How is he on/off leash?

Gosh, i dont know. what else?


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## SunCzarina

For the children question, make sure you say you have a BOY, how old he is and describe said boy. My 2 boys are night and day. You'd think the older more hyperactive boy would be more interactive with the dogs. He's not, my calm studious younger boy is much better with the dogs. 

*HOW* is he trained? Did he take basic obedience or something more with his old people?

Is he good with other dogs? This is important when you walk him. Some shepherds can be picky about their friends - my female loves all male dogs but she will not get along with other females unless they have pointy ears and are close in size to her.

Cats? Do you have a cat if not skip it.

How does he behave in the house?

Does he have separation anxiety - it's common in that age but they usually grow out of it eventually.

Is he crate trained?

How is he in the yard? Does he bark at people walking by, pound on the fence, terrorize squirrels or birds?

How is his prey drive? You'll want to know so when you're walking with him, he doesn't try to bolt after a cat, squirrel, whatever.

Is he high energy, low energy, how much exercise does he need and what is he used to doing?

I'm sure others will think of other things - when I was interviewing breeders, I had a spread sheet with all my questions.


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## maverickgsd1

You guys are way to funny, Talking about how hard and how much work it is to potty train a puppy. My GS was 10 weeks old and was totaly house broke in 4 days and only cried in his kennel one night. So maybe mine is smarter then yours? LOL just kidding.


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## smyke

All great questions Jenn, thank you.

do you have that spreadsheet still? LOL


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## maverickgsd1

ok one of the things you can ask is is he house broken? just because he's a older dog dose'nt mean he is.


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## CWhite

Well, I can recommend: 

Rokanhaus, Van Gogh Kennels, Wildhaus and v Grafenstein. I have never "seen" a v Landholz dog "in person", but the kennel has a good reputation. 

I am sure there are many people out there who can tell you much more than I can.


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## smyke

You are right, I kind of assumed he was.

Thanks Carolyn. Rokanhaus had no pups so she steered me towards Chris @ vom kleinen teich.


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## CWhite

I know a couple who has a dog from this breeder. Holland v. Grafenstein (look on their up-and-coming stars page. 
They are extremely happy with her. They are also very please with the help, support and service of v. Grafenstein. 

Holland is a very nice dog.


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## smyke

I will look into it. Thank you. 

I have this male on the agenda now. what other questions should I ask the breeder?


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## onyx'girl

I would ask about any allergies, is he sensitive to food changes, chews paws or scratches ears? Does he eat his poop? Ask if you can get his past medical records. If so, I would ask to view them before commiting to purchasing him.


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## maverickgsd1

How about shots? is he up to date? if not what will he need? or if he has can you get ahold of hhis records? has he been fixed? 

Does he snore? ok silly question but mine does. He also will twitch in his sleep, its kind funny to watch it looks likes hes dreaming of chasing a rabbit. lol


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## maverickgsd1

onyx must type faster then me. LOL


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## smyke

my boxer used to chase all kinds of things in her sleep. and she did snore, fart and her feet stunk. LOL I am used to that.
Christine is a veterinarian so I would think that part would be taken care of but I will definitely ask. thank you onyx and maverick.

I cannot find him on pedigreedatabase. only one dog from that litter on there (one in the link I posted earlier). 
what could that mean?


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## Castlemaid

Good luck Mike! I was going to suggest some questions, but Jenn beat me to it!!

Ask about his energy level, how much excercise/walks/running he needs to chill out in the house. I would ask a lot of questions about what training he had, what methods were used, what can you expect from him in different situations. 

Also, don't feel that you HAVE to take him after all the emails, all the questions, even the drive out to see him - If there is a little bit of doubt in your gut over this, don't be afraid to say that you would like to keep looking. A good breeder (and looks like you did find a good one!) will respect you for speaking up, and will be more concerned about finding the right match for her dogs than getting her feelings hurt for you backing out, or not quite feeling right over the whole thing. 

But I agree with the others - sounds very promising so far.


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## smyke

I realize that. I would like to get him but if there is any reason for me not to I will walk away. i am prepared to do that. no question about it.


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: smyke I cannot find him on pedigreedatabase. only one dog from that litter on there (one in the link I posted earlier).
> what could that mean?


Their owners kept the dogs as pets, they aren't raving shepherd loons or breeders. you'll find Otto there but only becuase I'm a raving shepherd loon. he's from a tri-pete litter, the only prodgency listed for the match up of his parents. Again, I'm a raving shepherd loon.


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## onyx'girl

Anyone can put up a pedigree on PDB, some choose not to or don't even know about it.
And I believe anyone can go in and change things(pics, etc)... so we are trusting that the correct information is posted.


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## smyke

Got ya. so nothing to worry about. I thought maybe only dogs meeting certain criteria could be put up there. cool.

I may be becoming a "raving shepherd loon" myself. and thats even before I got one. LOL

so why isnt this lady calling me? I know she has a job, but come on, who is more important than me?


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## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidAsk about his energy level, how much excercise/walks/running he needs to chill out in the house. I would ask a lot of questions about what training he had, what methods were used, what can you expect from him in different situations.


Ditto on Lucia's suggestions. Also, be very clear with the breeder what kind of life you can reasonably provide for this dog and make sure that she feels he would be happy and thrive under those conditions. 

When we got Halo I had never had a working line dog before and frankly was a bit apprehensive that we would be able to provide enough exercise and mental stimulation to keep her happy even though she was listed as being appropriate for an "active pet home". What exactly does that mean? 

I really wasn't sure if we would be considered such, so when I contacted Kandi I explained the kind of training I had done with my current dog and previous ones, and what I planned to do with our next dog. I described a typical day in the life/week in the life of our dogs. Because we have such a tiny yard, our exercise and play takes place elsewhere, and although we go to the park every weekend so they can run around, chase balls, and swim, they don't get a whole lot of activity during the week. I needed to know that she wasn't going to drive us crazy with that kind of schedule and also that she wasn't going to be miserable. As it turns out, Halo settles down nicely in the house and expends plenty of energy playing with Keefer. Even when she was home for 3 weeks while she was in heat she adapted just fine, although she was VERY ready to go out and have some fun once she was off house arrest! 

The more honest and open you can be, the better the chances of a good match.


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## BlackGSD

I haven't read every single post so these could very well have already been mentioned.

How is he is the yard? (Does he try to escape, bark, dig ect...)

Is he crate trained?

Does he travel well in the car? Does he get car sick?

Has he had his hips/elbows xrayed?

Not that any of the about should be a "deal breaker" if the answer isn't ideal. But still good things to know.


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## smyke

OK
I just got off the phone with her.

He comes from the couple who kept him in a tiny house on about 135 acres of land. They are separating so they returned 2 dogs to the breeder. there was also a 6 month old female but she is going to keep her.
Geist did not pas OFA. He came back with one hip slightly off. MILD I think was the rating. Chris is a vet as well so she is up to speed on this stuff. She said she had a dog with a lot worse problem before that was training with her for 7 years until she retired him and he lived to be 14 with no hip issues.
The owners used to bring Geist to her for vet visits so she has all the records on him. no medical issues other than that hip.
He is not neutered, but she said she could do it for me free of charge.
He is currently not in the house since she only keeps her retirees in the house. rest of the dogs have a place in their crates in her cellar.
he did go through some basic obedience training and was trained with E-collar (I'm not familiar with that myself).
When I asked about his energy level she said moderate. few ball tosses will keep him happy and that he loves that.
He is fine in the car, does not get sick.
She says he is very well behaved but would be cautious with him around other intact males.

Crap, i was trying to write it all down but may be forgetting something. What do you think?
She wants $1250 for him and will fix him for free if I wanted to.


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## onyx'girl

For a dog w/ mild HD I would think she wouldn't charge that much for him. Just finding a great forever home is what I would do. You may need to manage his hip issue for the rest of his life, and hope it doesn't worsen. She already made $ off him when she sold him the first time. JMO


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## smyke

I was thinking few hundred maybe, close to an adoption fee.
I didnt say anything about it on the phone as I didnt want to turn her off but thats a little steep.

I made an appointment with her for Saturday to see him and told her I would confirm with her by then one way or the other. she asked me to let her know before Saturday because there are others interested. Is she rushing me into a pretty complicated decision?


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## onyx'girl

I agree...and as she said it may be nothing, but are you willing to take that chance?


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## smyke

my number one goal was to have a dog free of HD. Now with the pup there is no guarantee either but here I already know.
I knew it was going to be too good to be true.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I would also expect a much lower price for a 2-1/2 year old dog rehomed due to a divorce, epecially one that has HD, even if it's mild and easily managed. 

I know of at least one breeder who does not charge at all for dogs returned to her under those circumstances and then rehomed. As Jane pointed out, the breeder made money on the dog the first time he was sold.


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## smyke

yeah, that sucks. I'm not going to call her back and haggle either. is she trying me out with that? dont think so.


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## BlackGSD

I wouldn't pay that for an adult dog with KNOWN bad hips.

I would rather take my chances on a puppy.

Sure, he MAY never have a problem. But then again, he MIGHT. 

I know a breeder that sold a perfectly healthy 3yo female that she got back from the origional buyer. She sold her the second time for $300. And she was well trained, housebroke, and spayed. 

I don't have a problem with them charging something, especially if they have had the dog a while and have had to pay for it's care. It also helps weed out the folks that are just looking for a free dog.


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## Liesje

I'm surprised at how steep that price is. That's more than a lot of people pay for great quality puppies, let alone a re-homed adult with possible mild HD. I don't know....I wouldn't be comfortable asking more than a few hundred, generally rescues do this to weed out wackos that hoard dogs or breed them. My first GSD was re-homed to me via the breeder, she has good hips and I did not pay for her (though I was expecting to).


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## JakodaCD OA

ok my two cents,,I'm with tracy, I don't have a problem with them charging something, heck I'd probably pay up to around 500, but I think 1250 would be just to steep for me for this particular dog. 

I gave her a big kudo's tho for being perfectly honest about his faults tho.


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## smyke

The dog was only returned to her 2 weeks ago. 

Thats a shame. I was looking forward to it.









maybe she is trying to see if I am some kind of a weirdo, but I dont want to count on that and drive for 3 hours one way with 2 kids only to find out she was serious.
what do I do? do i talk to her about it or just simply walk?


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## JakodaCD OA

well I just looked at her site, and it says he 'prelimmed fair'..so that isn't flunking ofa in my book. 

The hip thing really doesn't bother me much as she said he could live till 14 with no problems,,he is a crap shoot just like a puppy but with him you know where you stand because of his age.

I am uncomfortable with paying that amount of money for a dog I would just prefer to find a really good home for. Again, I would expect to pay something but that's a little steep in my book.

I have no idea if what she thinks, but I do know , she doesn't know you, nor you know her. sooo who knows? I'm sure alot of breeders get calls all the time but when money is mentioned they never hear from the person again, because the truth is, puppies aren't cheap)

It's certainly your call, I guess what I would do, if I were really interested in him, is take that 3 hour ride, meet the dog, who knows he may be something you ARE NOT interested in, but atleast you'll know...if you really like him, and think he'd be a fit into your lifestyle, maybe you could come to some kind of agreement regarding price..If you can't, well, then it was a learning experience.

I know it's really hard to go look at especially puppies and walk away, BUT, you have to leave the cute factor out of it, and consider that this puppy/dog will probably be living with you for the next 10+ years...

Sooo, the ball is in your court))


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## smyke

OK, Diane, thanks a lot. LOL

Geist was not mentioned on her website unless I missed it. I think you were looking at Oryx. 
When I talked to Kandi at Rokanhaus who recommended that breeder she said her website is not updated regularly.

I think I would rather get a pup at this point/price (or price point LOL) since thats what we wanted and mold the dog into what I want it to be. whether I will be able to do that is another story.









should I just email her and tell her that I wasnt expecting to pay that much for a "rescue" dog especially with the mild HD? I dont want to sound like an A-hole either.
I really dont want to drive down there no matter how great the dog is with the 95% chance I will not take him for reasons stated above. especially when its 125 miles one way and with 2 kids in tow who will surely fall in love with the dog the minute they see him.


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## Vinnie

I totally agree with Diane here. Great advice.
I have a blk. lab with really bad HD - according to the vet. He'll be 10 years old in January. So a "prelimmed fair" wouldn't bother me too much either.

Go meet the dog. The cost of gas for a 3 hour drive might save you more money down the road and meeting this dog/breeder in person may really help you make this decision.

Good luck!


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## SunCzarina

It'll be fine if you're just honest, nice and say what you wrote. I'd call her so she can hear the tone of your voice. 1250 is rediculous for a rescue. 

GSD rescue of new england gets way less than that for some really nice dogs. 

GSDRNE is having a big event this weekend. If southern Mass (easton) isn't too far for you, it would be a great opportunity for your family to meet a big pack of shepherds. LOL most of them already have a home so you and the boy can't say 'I want THAT one'. I'm going to be there, along with a few other members.

http://www.gsrne.org/index.htm


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## smyke

Bottom line is: I dont want to pay $1250 for a dog with a known <u>mild HD </u>(I dont know where you are getting fair from). If this is her firm price then its not worth wasting my and her time not to mention the heartbreak with the kids.
Am I way off base here?


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## Liesje

Nope, sounds reasonable to me


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: smyke(I dont know where you are getting fair from)


The breeder's own website.



> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAwell I just looked at her site, and it says he 'prelimmed fair'..


Do you know that she is firm on that price?


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## smyke

can you get me a link to where it says fair? sorry, I did not see that dog on there at all. here is the site i was looking at: http://vomkleinenteich.com/

I asked her what the price was and she said $1250, then I asked if neutering was extra and she said no. then she went on to explain that I would pay $1500-$2500 for a puppy.
I would think she was firm but I did not ask her directly.


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## onyx'girl

How much is she asking for Oryx?


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## smyke

I honestly did not ask since I was led to believe her website was not up to date.


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## SunCzarina

I don't think you're at all off base. 1200 is about what you'd pay for a nice pup around here. 400 is about what you'd pay for a rescue. Well bred from whatever lines or not, I think it's way too much for a dog that OFAd fair. Morgan OFAd fair. She's 8. I have to help her get in the car now. Sometimes her bones click. I feel really bad when she runs down the basement stairs following me, I'm just grabbing one thing really quick and then she struggles back up the stairs.

BTW I paid $5 for Morgan at a shelter

Morgan - 









this doof was free - just take him and you can have his crate too.


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## smyke

see, thats exactly what I want to avoid altogether. and definitely would not want to pay that kind of money. I would probably pay her $500 and hope for the best but thats it.

I'm sort of upset with myself that 1) I got so worked up with that dog and 2) that I didnt say anything to her right there and then. I honestly had no idea what to expect price wise but sort of had the limit set in my mind. crap.


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## SunCzarina

It's okay. You're wise to look at many dogs & litters before you make up your mind.

I really hope you can come to the rescue event this weekend. Since you're already thinking doggie day trip... you never know you might meet your dog. Or not!


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## smyke

Thing is Jenn, that I wasnt crazy about rescue at all as you can see from my previous posts. 
with the dog like Geist I know where it came from, I sort of know (from the breeder) what to expect, and I would have a breeder for support, who is a nice lady, veterinarian and recommended by one of the breeders (that people praise on here). with the rescue I dont get any of it and can end up with a dog with baggage (mental or physical).
I think I am too soft with this stuff. I get excited like a little kid and then upset when things go wrong. Even though I know going into it that Geist may not work out, i just thought it would be for different reasons than money.


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## JKlatsky

Here's the thing...Mild HD wouldn't bother me. I would consider asking to see the Xrays, but truthfully many a Mild HD dog when given supplements never shows signs at all, even when worked in dog sport. 

Although I would agree that for me $1250 would be pretty steep for this dog, especially in this economy. He has some basic obedience that would probably be just fine for you as a pet...but it's not extensive and I've seen dogs with SchH titles sold because they didn't OFA for less money. 

Sure when you buy a puppy you might pay more...but that's because you're paying for potential. That's also why breeders guarantee their puppies. 

That may also be something to consider...clearly I don't know the situation, but if Geist was sold with a guarantee, didn't pass OFA, he may have been returned because of the divorce but the breeder may have still had to put out something for the guarantee. If he was a $2500 puppy then half of that is $1250...so you have to think that with this sort of perspective this is a half price dog and she's just getting back cost...and he is ready to go for you and your family... 

So I don't know. In the end the decision to get a dog is very personal. If you like the dog it could well be worth it to you.


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: smykecan you get me a link to where it says fair? sorry, I did not see that dog on there at all. here is the site i was looking at: http://vomkleinenteich.com/
> 
> I asked her what the price was and she said $1250, then I asked if neutering was extra and she said no. then she went on to explain that I would pay $1500-$2500 for a puppy.
> I would think she was firm but I did not ask her directly.


Actually, I was following Diane's lead and assumed she found "fair" on the breeder's website as she said but maybe she was looking at a different dog. (Don't know.) I don't see any record of him in the OFA's database. 

I agree with you though that $1250 is too high of a price for a 2 1/2 year old companion dog with mild HD. Unless this dog has some special training that might merit the higher price. I personally would let the breeder know that this is the reason you are not considering this dog. The price. But that's me.


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## smyke

Here is the very short version of the story as Christine told me:
A couple got Geist from her at 8 weeks old (born in Januray 2007). Everything was going fine, they were bringing a dog to her for vet visits (3 hour drive each way). Couple months ago they came back to her to get another pup (female). Few weeks ago they called her and told her that they have to return the dogs because they are getting separated/divorced and the wife will not be able to handle a child, 2 dogs and few cats on her own. Both dogs were returned to her 2 weeks ago.
I have no idea how much she charged them originally but that wasnt a reason for the dog being returned. If she was to withhold that info she might as well not have told me about HD at all. Also they would not return the other pup either and I dont know if breeders guarantee their pups for 2.5 years.

I was willing to pay up to $1500 for a pup, but one with a CHANCE of having normal hips. this one does not. do I like the dog? (without meeting him yet) sure. I just dont want to get the dog and then have to possibly carry him for next 10 years. I may be contradicting myself here (wanting a pup "till death do us part" but saying that I dont want to help it when its sick) but these are just my thoughts.


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyHe has some basic obedience that would probably be just fine for you as a pet...but it's not extensive and I've seen dogs with SchH titles sold because they didn't OFA for less money.
> 
> Sure when you buy a puppy you might pay more...but that's because you're paying for potential. That's also why breeders guarantee their puppies.


And the downside to this is that someone has had 2 1/2 years to teach this dog bad habits that a puppy hasn't learned yet. Somethings that may not have bothered the previous owner but will bother this owner. He will have to spend some time re-training this dog and therefore just basic training doesn't really count in my book. With a puppy you're not just paying for potential IMO.


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## smyke

so what do I do? call her or email and express my concerns with the price? tell her I like the dog (from the picture) but will pass on it?
I dont want to get into a hairy situation and lose my shirt while I'm at it but dont want to sound like an @$$hole who is looking for a hand out either. or is haggling over the price of a living/breathing creature.


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## JKlatsky

Ultimately it is a purchase and you are a consumer. If you're having misgivings already then you pass on the dog. It is your right to be discerning. You very politely say...

"Thank you very much for the time you have taken in talking to me. I understand that at present Geist has no evident problems from his Mild HD, however, for me, at this time that is more money than I would like to spend when I feel like I am settling for a less than perfect dog. 

I would rather have passing hips or at least the possibility of having passing hips even if it means I may have to spend more money in the end. 

Thank you once again for the time you have taken talking to me. You've been helpful and informative and you came highly recommended so if you have any other dogs that come along I would be happy to consider them as well."


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## smyke

That is a very well written note, J. Thank you. I will do that.
I dont expect her to change her mind when she hears it but it definitely is a nice, polite way to tell her how I feel.


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## Vinnie

Honestly I don’t think anyone can tell you what you should do, we can only tell you what we think we would do if we were in your shoes. 

IMO you sound unsure. I’d take more time and think things over. If I was unsure if I liked the dog enough to make it a part of my family (for whatever reason), I’d figure that out first. If I really liked the dog and could see it being a part of my family but thought the price was unmerited, I’d try to work out a reasonable price with the seller. If I couldn't work out a agreeable price, there's many others out there. (Sorry if I sound cold and impersonal with that last sentence.)


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## smyke

I am on the phone with her again. she called me to talk to me about those hips again. she wanted to reassure me that she is 100% positive this dog will be OK with the proper care. She said that if she felt the HD was very bad she would put the dog down and not put anybody through the heartbreak she sees as a vet.
I mentioned the price tag concern and she said that with puppies going for $1800 on average they are more of a crapshoot than Geist is. I could end up with the pup with severe HD and his one hip is only slightly off. she said in her opinion they should have been rated higher.
When I said I wasnt expecting to pay $1250 for a dog that is being re-placed all I got was silence so I dont think it fazed her that much.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: smykeshe wanted to reassure me that she is 100% positive this dog will be OK with the proper care.


 proper care means no certain activities like jogging, agility, catching frisbie in the air, jumping into the SUV, buying good supplements which are not cheap, HD can get worse so you will look into hip replacement. That's proper care and the dog will be ok but are you up for it? 

PS Also what bothers me that the dog lived in a tiny house on 135 acres and was obviously controlled via ecollar. Is he an outdoors dog or a house dog? How much interaction he actually had with people, not with the two othr dogs?


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## onyx'girl

She also let you know there are others interested. I would ask her about Oryx, what is his story? You do not have to rush into this, take more time, research some more and more after that.


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## smyke

she made it sound a lot better than that Oksana. LOL. I would rather have a dog that will be able to do all those things. true, with puppies it could be worse I guess. 
she told me that she replaces puppies only when they are not able to walk because of HD. is that normal with breeder warranties? if lets say I get a pup with a 2 year guarantee and at age 2 I send in his xrays to OFA and they come back mild will they not honor the warranty?


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## smyke

I freakin' forgot to ask her about Oryx but we did talk about other dogs she had returned over the years and what she had available and she didnt mention him. I think she would have since she knew I was concerned about Geist.

I know I dont have to rush into it and I dont want to, but then again I dont want to take too long to decide only to find out he was taken by someone else and then regret I didnt come through with it.
a little dumb, i know.


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## onyx'girl

I would hope a breeder would honor a contract(many are worded differently-read the fine print), but not being able to walk would make me question my breeding program.


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## GSD07

Ok, forget about this breeder. I'm sorry but she sounds like a used car salesman even though she's so recommended. Also she guarantees only for crippling HD when good breeders guarantee that the dog will pass OFA. So yes, the good breeder will honor their puppy warranty in your scenario.


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## smyke

I may just have to do that, Oksana. move along.


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## Vinnie

Don’t let anyone put pressure on you to accept any dog/puppy. It’s not the right way to go. 

Personally, for me, the price is a sticking point here. Sure a puppy is somewhat of a crap shoot but a 2 ½ year old has baggage as I mentioned in a previous post. A puppy is a clean slate. 

There really is plenty of options out there even if you don't see it at the moment.


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## smyke

That is how I look at it too Vinnie. she is trying to persuade me to look at it from a different point of view. she is not pressuring me into getting him she keeps saying this is my decision only and that is cool.
she just wanted to reassure me what her professional opinion is on that matter. she heard concern in my voice during our first conversation and wanted to make sure I understood what was going on.
I will talk to my wife about it when I get home but I know she will not want to pay that kind of money for the dog with baggage and that, I'm sure, will help me make the decision.









and as was mentioned before its not only the HD but we dont really know whats between his ears either. she hasnt had enough time to evaluate him after she got him back. he never even ran around with her own dogs yet.


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## maverickgsd1

WALK AWAY!! quit killing yourself over the dog. Find a quality breeder and get a pup. Of course you won't know for sure about hips in a pup right away but if you check backgrounds and references on past dogs hips you'll have a better chance of getting a pup that wont have any problems. A GS with "mild" hip problems to me is a big red flag. Theres so much he wont be able to do besides "mild" horse play. Save your 1250 and put it towards a quality pup you'll be glade you did in the long run. And like you said you can mold the pup to fit into your life style.


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## SunCzarina

Agreed! Did you look at 

http://www.traumhofgsd.com/Upcoming_Litters.html

Not a recommendation or anything, just saw this breeders site a while ago and said, Sherry is a NICE looking boy. Maybe a member here has a pup from them or something, don't recall, just thought they were worth a second look. Really like her puppy application page and the little I read.

No time to dig deeper, my boys are brawling again and they need to eat some food then GO TO BED - you know what that's all about...


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## JakodaCD OA

ok I WAS looking at Oryx, sorry for the confusion,,and I totally agree with what Vinnie has posted above..

DON't STRESS over it, there are so many puppies/dogs out there, things happen for a reason, one will fall in your lap when you least expect it..

and yes, the price is the major sticking point with me as well, for the exact reasons vinnie has posted.


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## smyke

And walk away I will. Thank you all for you input. 
I know I have been killing myself over this for some reason. I dont know why since I set out to get the pup from the get go. I guess I am easily impressed.









Those dogs look very nice and I will definitely contact that breeder Jenn. 
Anybody have any input about them???


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## Cassidy's Mom

I don't know anything about them, but Charlotte, the dam of the first litter mentioned, sounds wonderful. It doesn't say if either of the August litters have puppies available, but it might be worth checking into.


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## smyke

I already emailed them.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: maverickgsd1 Theres so much he wont be able to do besides "mild" horse play.


I agree that it seems for the OPs situation he would be better served looking elsewhere, however I STRONGLY disagree with the above statement.

"Mild" hips almost never cause a dog any issues whatsoever. And I only say almost because of the old adage to never say never. There are many serious working and sport dogs with "mild" hips. Dogs that are working the streets as police dogs, agility champions, serious SchH competitors, dogs who herd and work farms day in and day out.
In short, dogs doing a whole lot more than "mild horse play".

If the hips are truly mild, graded such by OFA or a qualified person, not just the opinion of a vet or the breeder, than the chances that they will ever cause the dog any symptoms are slim. Add in a proper diet, keeping the dog a proper weight, proper exercise and some basic joint supplements and those chances are reduce to practically nil.

Heck, we have a dog here who was graded Moderate HD, and she just turned 10, acts like a 1 year old, has led a normal, active lifestyle and has never had a symptom in her life.

Not trying to change the OPs mind about this dog because it does sound like not the best fit. But the breeder selling the dog is 100% correct in her prognosis of what mild hips mean in terms of affecting the dog.


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> I agree that it seems for the OPs situation he would be better served looking elsewhere


Thank you for your advice Chris. 
Would you care to elaborate on your above statement? 
I would love to take that dog if the price was more acceptable. What is your opinion on asking for such money in that situation. I dont want us to judge the breeder but I am simply looking to learn for future reference.


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## lhczth

As far as mild HD: my first SchH3 dog was unilateral dysplastic in her right hip. She showed no signs until she was 10. Her back is why I had to retire her. I used to train with a guy who had a dog that was 20X SchH3. The dog was mild in both hips. He lived to 14 and was sound his whole life. I have a 6 year old female that is severe in one hip. She is still sound. I wouldn't have done SchH with her, but you would never know that she has ugly hips. Don't discount the dog because it may be mild. I would want to see the x-rays or have a vet evaluate the x-rays.


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## GSD07

Anton has a mild HD hip and he's still my heart dog and we will do everything with him (within reasons). He would be my perfect dog even with severe HD just because I am so bonded to him. But I would not purchase a dog with known HD for so much money (unless it's the last GSD available on Earth, in that case I would reconsider







)


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## smyke

its unfortunate but the money IS the deal breaker for me in this case. LIke I said I expressed my concern to her but she did not care. not in so many words but thats the vibe I got. she believes I am getting a better dog than going with the pup and she will stick to her guns.


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## SunCzarina

Pups can be a crap shoot. They're also BRUTAL on your kids/clothes/house. However, you'll know everything the dog has ever seen. You can control their little world from 8 weeks on and mold them into the dog you want.

Keep looking, there's no rush is there? Don't rush, so many people get impulsive then they end up here with problems up the waz. You're being smart and steady to ask a lot of questions BEFORE you get your pup.


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## onyx'girl

Gosh, Karlo has not been brutal at all. I cannot believe what a good puppy he has been. Though Onyx may not agree, she has taken the brunt of his energy and drive! I think due to his great breeder, I haven't had it as hard as many puppy owners.
Smyke, if money is an issue, and from what I gather you want showlines, don't settle for less due to the cost. Save more. 
I am sending you a pm on a dog listed on another board, it may be a nice fit or not~at any rate, I am letting you know about this dog.


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## smyke

no, no rush. sooner the better though LOL. seriously, I can wait few months, not big on waiting for years though. however as I learn from this forum I get a lot more patient when it comes to all this. its a lot to learn and it will take time.
I have 3 breeders locally that have dogs that look good to me so I will try working with them for now, but if more come up will definitely contact them as well.

if it wasnt for the price tag I would definitely take a chance on that beautiful male and I would do everything in my power to make sure he had good long life. 
I will email the breeder tomorrow to let her know about my decision.


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, I agree with you & essentially everybody else here that the price is too high for an adult with mild HD. From what I've learned on this board I wouldn't consider the mild HD an automatic deal breaker but even if his hips were excellent that's a steep price for an adult companion dog. 

I'm glad you're not rushing it. Originally you'd stated you wanted a dog within a year. I'm sure you can find an excellent fit whether pup or adult within that time frame. 4-6mos seems equally realistic, especially if you'll drive a few hours, or have the pup shipped.

Keep a clear head & stay focused. You'll have your GSD & I bet s/he will be perfect! (Though even goood pups are [heck])


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## RubyTuesday

Ouch! The following is quoted from the breeder's puppy contract who has the 2.5 yr old male with mild HD. 



> Quote:...IF THE PUPPY IS FOUND TO HAVE CRIPPLING DYSPLASIA REQUIRING EUTHANASIA (UP TO ONE YEAR OF AGE), THE SELLER WILL REPLACE THIS PUPPY WITH ONE OF EQUAL VALUE FROM ANOTHER LITTER. OFA RATINGS OF MILD, MODERATE OR SEVERE DYSPLASIA DOES NOT FALL UNDER THIS OBLIGATION...


Personally, that's not a breeder I'd deal with. IF she has confidence in her breeding stock & the pups produced, why does she provide her buyers with so little protection or recourse? 

Keep looking, Mike. Perhaps she breeds wonderful dogs but she's (IMO) too much of a crapshoot, never mind her pups.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday IF she has confidence in her breeding stock & the pups produced, why does she provide her buyers with so little protection or recourse?


 Because she obviously knows what she produces and doesn't want to go bankrupt with puppy replacements.


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## smyke

...So the search continues.









And in case you know of a dog out there that was returned to the breeder and has no issues i would consider it. so please let me know.


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## Jason L

I think it was the right call, Mike. 

You should be able to find a good pup if you're time frame is a few months. Any litter or announced breeding that you are interested in right now?


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## cliffson1

Chris and Lisa, you are so right about "mild" hips and some of the misinformation spewed about what to expect from "mild" hips is appalling. Mike, there are many people on this board who give uneducated opinions that are not supported by facts and these extreme opinions are what lead many others into misguided views. Whether you take this dog or not, a dog with mild HD should live a normal productive life.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I just came on this thread as I am deployed and have been unable to get on a lot. 

I think in your situation you made the right call passing on this dog. 

I agree with clifton most dogs with mild HD do very well, they lead active lives, they do agility, they do flyball, they do SchH. That said, there are some that may not be able to.

Every dog is a crap shoot, puppy or adult.

I agree that if it were me the price would be the sticking point not the hips.

My Havoc has a hinky hip, not quite mild not quite fair. I do agility with him, and will begin trialing when I get back from the sandbox in April.

Lots of good breeders out there in your area so keep looking. Check out the adoption event that was posted you may be able to get an idea of differnt types of GSD's.

Hey.... welcome to our world!


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## smyke

Thank you for your input Cliff.
I would be ready to take that dog and give it all the love it deserves but as I said before: not for that kind of money.

Kathy, thank you and stay safe out there.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I have a dog with mild. She's smaller, not a GSD but some kind of Chow-Border Collie mix. She's a loon. It does not seem to limit her. I keep her hind end as muscular as possible to keep things in place (she has buns of steel) and then TRY to keep her weight off. Of course, I paid $40 for her. Well, $70 because I donated the speuter fee back to the shelter. So I wasn't exactly expecting perfection! 

If I were to pay a lot for a dog, I still wouldn't expect a guarantee because they are living beings but would not expect to pay that amount for a (is he a showline-I read that they are more expensive) 2 year old with a relatively unknown background and with something that I had been trying to avoid (in your case HD, I would be looking at other stuff to avoid that I have seen in GSDs around serious digestion and skin issues and autoimmune stuff). So you are on the right track. 

I fall in love with every dog I see too! So by setting up your must have list you will have that as a fall back. Sounds like that is going to be key for you to do. 

I am going to strongly recommend that you go to the event people have been telling you about. You need to meet A LOT of dogs before you get one. Right now, your questions are basic. Your questions will get much more personal and involved when you meet more and more dogs. You will refine what you like and don't like in terms of temperament and appearance. You will see what you can tolerate or not in terms of behaviors. 

My preference right now would be a mute dog...but...all kidding aside, meet a ton of dogs before you continue your search. 

Most people don't marry the first person they ever meet. They see what they like and don't like. A dog is like a marriage, for better or worse, in sickness and in health, and lots of times for more years than some marriages, so you need to know what you are looking for before you begin looking. 

PS-have fun looking!


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANA dog is like a marriage, for better or worse, in sickness and in health


Amen to that.

And I know that even if I did get a puppy who had some issues I dont know if I would be able to just return it like a pair of shoes that dont fit anymore. 
However a guarantee means to me that the breeder is standing behind the health of his dogs and would be willing to exchange it if needed. I would imagine they do not have to do that too often otherwise it would mean they are doing something wrong.


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## GSD07

Cliff, anyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm actually disappointed that you start using this condescending tone towards other people's views without actually addressing those views with facts you may provide, something that Chris and Lisa never descent to. Hopefully it's not Doc's influence LOL If you are so appalled that I said that mild HD may progress (and may not) and some precautions have to be taken so the OP takes this into account then I have my doubts in such educated opinion too. It's more about the OP here and helping him to make the best choice.

About warranties, I don't believe in warranties at all anymore, but if the warranty is provided than it has to be one that is good for both sides, not just a seller.


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## smyke

I just emailed the breeder to tell her I will not be pursuing Geist. I made sure she understood it was mainly because of the price tag.


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## RubyTuesday

TBH, the wording of her puppy contract bothers me considerably more than Geist's price, which is too high IMO. (I'd top out ~$500, maybe $750 if I met him & was uber impressed). Mild HD would hardly give me pause which is largely b/c of info from both this board & breeders I trust. 



> Quote:About warranties, I don't believe in warranties at all anymore, but if the warranty is provided than it has to be one that is good for both sides, not just a seller.


Oksana, you make several good points in this single statement. 

Warranties are devilishly hard to enforce from any distance. Even locally they can be a hassle. Notoriously bad but financially successful breeders are often experienced in either legally wriggling out of their responsibilities, or cheerfully(wisely!) taking an occasional financial hit while continuing to rake it in. 

Most decent breeders honor their health warranty without requiring the return of the often beloved pet. However, almost all of 'em also disclaim any financial responsibility for subsequent care & medical treatment of the condition(s). In many, many cases the necessary additional care, not to mention stress & heartbreak, will far exceed the purchase price of the dog.

Given this, the tangible value of even the lengthiest, most extensive warranty in many cases isn't really that great. A buyer can get back their initial $1000-2000 expenditure but special diets, drugs or surgery in many cases will eat up more than that every year the dog is alive. 

Under even the best warranty, the _actual_ financial protection is fairly slight when viewing the big picture, _the life of the dog_.

IMO, a warranty clarifies the responsibilities & expectations of both parties. It can also indicate what the breeder will be like to deal with if problems arise. Nit picky micro-managing types don't suit me so I avoided breeders that appeared to fit that mold. Nor do I trust breeders whose requirements are so stringent they'll be impossible to comply with. These breeders effectively void the warranty almost as fast as puppies leave their premises.

The warranty IMO is the chocolate following a good meal. I would buy from a breeder I truly trust with no warranty. I will never deal with a breeder I don't trust regardless of how good, long, extensive or ironclad their warranty is.

_ps-Oksana, I don't think Cliff's comments were directed toward you specifically. In fact they're an invaluable reminder on a board where anyone can (& does) chime in regardless of background or experience. 

Any remarks I (or most pet owners) make regarding mild HD is frankly either 2nd hand info or info gleaned from experience with 1 or 2 affected dogs. Others (possibly including yourself) have had actual experience with dozens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of dogs they've owned, bred &/or interacted with. Alerting others that the provided opinions aren't of equal merit is (IMO) good & necessary. I also don't understand why you'd make a sideways jab at Doc in your post taking issue with Cliff. Whether you like him or not why make a gratuitous dig?_


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## smyke

OK now, play nice. LOL

I honestly didnt even look at her contract since I knew she had no pups and that it would not apply to Geist. rookie mistake I guess.


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, I'm not sure why I looked at her contract. It's not at all what I expected. I'm a slightly more experienced rookie than you, but definitely still a rookie. I imagine I'll remain a rookie b/c I don't breed, nor do I compete. I've also been 'burdened' with dogs that have very good temperaments so I lack direct experience with many of the problems some have struggled through. That's not really a complaint, but there's a lot that can only be learned through experiences I (happily) lack.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> _ps-Oksana, I don't think Cliff's comments were directed toward you specifically. In fact they're an invaluable reminder on a board where anyone can (& does) chime in regardless of background or experience.
> 
> Any remarks I (or most pet owners) make regarding mild HD is frankly either 2nd hand info or info gleaned from experience with 1 or 2 affected dogs. Others (possibly including yourself) have had actual experience with dozens, hundreds, sometimes thousands of dogs they've owned, bred &/or interacted with. Alerting others that the provided opinions aren't of equal merit is (IMO) good & necessary. I also don't understand why you'd make a sideways jab at Doc in your post taking issue with Cliff. Whether you like him or not why make a gratuitous dig?_


RubyTuesday, you are right, I should've not responded like that but Cliff always gives such carefully weighed opinions and always so armed with facts and so respectful to others that his comments sounded a little weird to me and rubbed me the wrong way. I apologize!! About Doc it was a friendly harmless joke, he just likes to ramble a lot in his posts from time to time about unknowledgable people talking GSD so I thought about him









I am not very experienced with HD dogs, I am still learning and my opinion is based on owning Anton and also on conversations with a professor of WSU vet. hospital's orthopedics department.

Here's some facts that I didn't mention before. I do have a dog with mild HD prelims, and I do see a slight difference with him and my other dog who happened to have good hips (probably would certify excellent if not the dislocation). I see like Anton crawls into the sedan, not jumps, and gets tired easily. I do keep him lean, exercised and in a good physical (and mental) shape but his body can't take the amount of activity Yana could take (6-7 miles off leash hiking in the hills a day, for example, or hours of fetch with Chuck-it). He jumps when he plays but then he acts like he's sore. 

I will xray him again down the road but I am not sure what I will see. All dogs are different, but I guarantee you one thing -my dog will live normal productive life with me regardless of the condition of his hips


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## smyke

I hear ya Ruby.
In many cases we are better of not knowing first hand. 

I would too take care of my dog and provide for him no matter what, but if I can lower the chances of anything going wrong I will go for it.

So right now I have 3 local breeders I have contacted who have beautiful dogs (colors I prefer) and who will have puppies soon. Please feel free to comment/advise or recommend any others.
http://www.traumhofgsd.com/index.html
http://www.totana-at-piperhill.com/
http://www.vongrafenstein.net/


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## Doc

Somebody call my name? It is so nice to be loved by everyone on this thread. As far as me rambling, it's [heck] getting old so you want to unload as much knowledge while someone is listening because you never know if you will have that chance again. LOL. Call me old, call me mean, call me obnoxious, call me crazy, call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for supper.

I have an entire volume of knowledge and experience with "mild" dysplasia, but I will reframe from rambling. I will make one comment - well, maybe two. Remember, an OFA reading is someone's opinion - the dog could have two "fair" grades and one "mild" grade and still be labled as "mild". Also, OFA x-rays are a poor predictor of DJD - PennHip is more valid and accurate. Don't take my word for it - read the research.

Thanks for everyone's kind words about me.


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## smyke

thank you Doc. and it is OK if you want to ramble a bit. worst that can happen I can learn something.









I so would have taken my chances on that beautiful boy but just could not justify spending that kind of cash. there were other unknowns too.


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## Vandal

I totally agree with Cliff. There is quite a bit of mis-information here and opinions about contract wording and what the breeder's intentions are that are just downright unfair. 

Would a trained, x-rayed and offer of a free neuter be worth $1250.00 if you didn't know she got the dog back? I guess because she is a Vet and can do the procedures herself you think there is no value in that? This is not a rescue, the pedigree and the health status, training etc is known. There are pups out there being sold for three times that amount. If you subtract the health checks and neuter, that is a Pet puppy price for that dog and not at all unreasonable. 
I also agree about OFA, I have seen and heard about more "mild" x-rays than I can count, that were read differently when re-submitted. Not an exact science there, that's for sure.

I don't know the breeder. Sounds like she is being honest which is just kind of stupid I guess. You can't tell the truth anymore and expect it to be processed correctly.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: smyke
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> I agree that it seems for the OPs situation he would be better served looking elsewhere
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your advice Chris.
> Would you care to elaborate on your above statement?
Click to expand...

I say that mainly because you're obviously uncomfortable with the situation. And I don't think anyone should get a dog, be it from a breeder, broker, rescue, shelter or anywhere else, if they are uncomfortable. Doesn't matter why the person is uncomfortable or if their reasons for being so are considered legitimate in the opinions of others. The discomfort is still there and thus I think it best for everyone involved to move on to a situation that has a higher comfort level.



> Originally Posted By: smyke
> I would love to take that dog if the price was more acceptable. What is your opinion on asking for such money in that situation.


Without knowing specifics about the dog's pedigree, bloodline, history, training, socialization, health and everything else I can't say if I would consider the dog worth the price or not. I will say that even though there is a check in the negative column for this dog (the mild HD, which to me, for a pet, wouldn't be that big of a negative). But at the same time, much more is known about this dog than a equally priced puppy simply because the dog is mature enough to thoroughly evaluate. And more is known about this dog than the vast majority of dogs in a shelter or rescue. And the dog has most certainly had more time, training and effort put into it than those other options. 

One could say that while this dog may have a negative check mark, at least here people know what that check mark is because the breeder is being upfront and honest about it, whereas with other dogs it would be more of a waiting game to see if any negative check marks appear down the road, and what they are. Just from a health standpoint, I would take a dog with mild HD any day over the vast majority of other health problems that plague this breed.

But what that means in terms of cost/benefit ratios is completely individual. Some would consider the dog worth the price because of all that is known vs a much greater number of unknowns in a pup of similar price, or similarly aged adult with a cheaper price tag but much less known about him. Others would not. That all comes down to personal opinion.

In the end though, as I said above, if you're not comfortable with it than I think it wise to look elsewhere, regardless of what anyone else's opinion may be.


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## smyke

absolutely wonderful of her for being honest. I greatly appreciated that. she was a very nice lady who took her time explaining stuff to me. called me twice to reassure me that in her professional opinion that mild HD was a non-issue. The only reason I was even considering getting him was because she is a veterinarian and (hopefully) knows what she is talking about even after she mentioned his hips. in fact, it was the first thing she told me about him. I would never consider getting a dog with any health issues but would make an exeption in this case just because she is a vet who knows this dog from the day he was born (at least health-wise).
It was a great learning experience. 
She feels this is the fair price for Geist and I respect it. I cannot say a bad word about her and if I implied anything like that in my previous posts, I apologize.

would I pay that price if I knew nothing about his HD? No. 

Originally I set out to get a puppy since I felt it would be the best way for the dog to get used to my children and vice versa. I do not know how that dog would react if they were hanging all over him once I brought him home. Breeder couldnt tell me that either. She only had him back for 2 weeks. so there were other things we didnt know about.

I think I processed her info correctly, obviously thanks to this forum and many opinions (for and against) voiced in this thread. 
I just made the choice based on the money part of it. 
who knows, I may regret it later but thats life, right?


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## Liesje

Mike I agree with Chris, if you are uncomfortable for any reason, keep looking. We know you won't mean it as a slam on the breeder. Also it sounds as though you originally had your heart set on a puppy and still feel that way. There is *nothing wrong* with wanting a puppy.


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## smyke

thanks for taking your time explaining it Chris



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> Without knowing specifics about the dog's pedigree, bloodline, history, training, socialization, health and everything else I can't say if I would consider the dog worth the price or not.


Thats the thing, we dont know it all. she is evaluating him as she goes but things could come up.



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> But at the same time, much more is known about this dog than a equally priced puppy simply because the dog is mature enough to thoroughly evaluate.


I dont know enough to evaluate the dog myself, not to mention thoroughly. I wouldnt want to take him and have to return him if something did happen.



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> And more is known about this dog than the vast majority of dogs in a shelter or rescue. And the dog has most certainly had more time, training and effort put into it than those other options.


and thats exactly the only reason I was considering him. typical rescue case (abandoned dog for example) would be out of the question.



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> Some would consider the dog worth the price because of all that is known vs a much greater number of unknowns in a pup of similar price, or similarly aged adult with a cheaper price tag but much less known about him. Others would not. That all comes down to personal opinion.


thats how the breeder was approaching it.

Who knows? Maybe I made the mistake.


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeMike I agree with Chris, if you are uncomfortable for any reason, keep looking. We know you won't mean it as a slam on the breeder. Also it sounds as though you originally had your heart set on a puppy and still feel that way.


I totally agree with that too. And there's nothing wrong with being uncertain. It just means you need to take time to think it through. Who knows - Mike may look around for a bit and end up coming back to this dog. No one knows yet.



> Originally Posted By: Liesje There is *nothing wrong* with wanting a puppy.


I want a puppy too!


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## smyke

I am still thinking about him thats for sure. and I am torn as I see the benefits of adopting/buying an adult dog but the uncertainty is pretty overwhelming too. 
not to say, as mentioned by many here, that I can be certain of anything with any age dog.

and who knows? maybe I will come back to him. 

I havent gotten the response from the breeder and she may not take her time to do it at all. she probably thinks I am some kind of idiot who passed up on the great dog for few hundred dollars. (or is it me thinking that and putting my words in her mouth/thoughts?) LOL


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: smykeI havent gotten the response from the breeder and she may not take her time to do it at all. she probably thinks I am some kind of idiot who passed up on the great dog for few hundred dollars. (or is it me thinking that and putting my words in her mouth/thoughts?) LOL


Yep, that's you thinking!








If she's a vet & a breeder she's probably just busy and will get back to you as soon as she can. Maybe she senses your uncertainty too and wants to go slow with you. I’m sure she cares about this dog too and wants to make sure she finds the right home for him. That's ok. Actually thats very good.


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## smyke

Thanks for reassuring me Vinnie. LOL

yeah, as I keep thinking about it she will show him to others (she said there was interest) and maybe she will find him a good home, maybe even better than mine. and thats cool.

I will give her some time and then probably check in to see what happened to him.

In the mean time I have to focus on finding the good breeder.


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## JakodaCD OA

I know nothing about traumhof, (tho I"ve heard of them) but did you see on "dogs for sale" page she has a little bit older puppy for sale?? This may be outdated, but cute puppy nonetheless)


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## smyke

I did see her but it said she needed to go to the home that would show her also. I know nothing about it so dont know if I would qualify. 

I emailed her with the Puppy application. we'll see what happens.


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## cliffson1

Oksana, no need to apologize, you are right in that everybody is entitled to their opinion. Frankly, sometimes I find myself not being as diplomatic as some of the moderators that I definitely respect for their restraint. I also admit to trying to bring balance to subject more from a practical point of view. But,sometimes I get caught up in the moment and frankly, i am ready to take a sitdown and just savor others opinions for a while. I have left another forum because I feel like a broken record and I am sure people tire of hearing my perspective. This is a great board and people have learned a lot from this board and people have grown from this board, which is a tribute to the owners/moderators. So...no harm no foul and I'll take a vacation from the board and train my new puppy who is doing fabulous...peace!


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## Barb E

Don't stay away too long cliff - and why have we not seen pictures of the pup?????


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## Kayos and Havoc

Clifton do not take a vacation we need you here!!


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## RubyTuesday

Clifton, I hope you're not going away for long. Within this thread you & Oksana have both demonstrated a willingness to step back a bit & self moderate. There might have been a few somewhat tense moments but both of you very wisely & respectfully <u>chose</u> to defuse the situation rather than escalate it. I applaud both of you. Too often, even among mature adults, this isn't seen. 

Mike, don't agonize over Geist. Regardless of how lovely he is (& I think he's stunning!) there are a wealth of wonderful dogs out there of all ages. Stay within your comfort zone & heed your gut instincts.

I feel the breeder is selling him twice. That's completely within her rights, but it sits poorly with me & I'd look elsewhere. It's commendable that her puppy contract spells out <u>exactly</u> what responsibilities she assumes for the pups she sells. Those happy with her terms will buy from her. Others will go elsewhere. Personally, IMO, the bar is set pretty low when a year old pup with severe HD isn't covered but apparently others disagree. For that matter a 13 month old with crippling HD wouldn't be covered either but her terms are at least clear...Like 'em or move on. 

Another poster said, _...I would be looking at other stuff to avoid that I have seen in GSDs around serious digestion and skin issues and autoimmune stuff..."_ I strongly agree with this statement. Have you perused the health section? If not, you really should, just to get a grasp of the various health problems common to GSD & what's involved in managing them.


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## GSD07

Cliff, please don't stay away for too long!! You know that we all love you here and always appreciate your opinion!

Thanks RubyTuesday


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## smyke

What have I done? Cliff will now go on the hiatus because of my thread.









so another breeder in CT has been recommended to me:
http://web.mac.com/teamnummerein/Wilhendorf/Welcome.html

I emailed them an waiting for call back.

so now there are 4 on the table.


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## smyke

anyone have any input regarding the above breeder?
their pups are a little pricy: starting at $2000 for long coat, and $3000 for normal.
I may visit anyway just as a learning experience and who knows? maybe it will worth double the price that anyoby else charges.


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## Andaka

German Show lines are the most expensive "flavor" of GSD. So, several thousand dollars for a puppy from top flight parents from a top kennel is not unheard of. Be prepared.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: smykeanyone have any input regarding the above breeder?
> their pups are a little pricy: starting at $2000 for long coat, and $3000 for normal.
> I may visit anyway just as a learning experience and who knows? maybe it will worth double the price that anyoby else charges.


They are a very popular German show kennel in the USA. Go to the NASS or USA Sieger Show and you will see a very large percentage of entries (and top placing entries) from this kennel. Whether that is "good" is neither here nor there (depends on whether you appreciate this type).

There are plenty of great kennels with this same "type" (look) of GSD that don't cost nearly as much, especially if you are not interested in high placements at shows. How far are you willing to travel or are you willing to ship?

This is my youngest dog, same "type", similar lines, and he has won show trophies too, but I did not pay $3000 for him.


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## smyke

is he for sale? LOL
LOVE the black/red color.

I kind of got the hint of the pricing from the person that recommended them and I do realize that they are one of the top notch breeders in the country.

I would rather travel to get the pup. idea of shipping is still a very distant possibility.

I am on the phone with the breeder from this kennel:
http://www.vomwunderhund.com/german_shepherds/GSD_puppies.php

any thoughts about this litter?


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## smyke

he actually has 1 female and 2 males available. one was almost gone but the couple came and the breeder didnt like the guy so he gave them their deposit and sent them on their way. 
Thats sort of a good sign. 
He was very knowledgeable and had all the right answers for me.


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## smyke

well, while I am waiting for your input I googled around a little bit and found that this breeder advertises his pups for sale quite a lot. 
Red flag?


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, exactly what makes a breeder '_one of the top notch breeders in the country?_ Titles? Championships? # of pups sold? Regardless of whether your pup comes from working, companion or show lines, you want a sound, healthy, long lived & biddable dog. IF these top dogs don't have all of that, what are they really worth to you? 

And there are renowned breeders who regularly produce 'top dogs' lacking some of those qualities. Look carefully for what you want, need & expect from your dog. Is this breeder it? I have no idea, but please be certain you're screening for what matters to you. It might be very different than what a 'top notch breeder' is producing.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

In addition to that, how many GSDs have you met lately? 

Disclaimer-I am NOT trying to "sell" you on a rescue-I don't want you to think so when you open the link below. I think it is important that people want to get a rescue all on their own (but often we do introduce the idea because sometimes people just haven't considered it) so I think it's a really bad idea to pressure people to adopt instead of buy. 

BUT http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1211524&page=1#Post1211524 this event seems like a great opportunity to meet and see a bunch of GSDs and get really specific ideas on what you are looking for, not to adopt, but in what your options are, or what you are not looking for etc. Pictures on a website are beautiful but seeing as many dogs as possible is invaluable. 

I think so anyway! And I won't drop the idea...







and if I have to I'll use even use <go to the walk> subliminals! 

More direct link: http://www.gsrne.org/2009WalknWag.htm


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## maverickgsd1

Insteed of asking about every kennel you run across why don't you ask the breeder for a few refrences and make a few calls to them. Ask them your questions and see what they say. Dont get me wrong, im kinda enjoying this its kinda funny but intresting at the same time. Why dont you look at http://www.24kgsd.com/ they are the ones i decided on getting a pup from. I was in your postion a few years ago, trying to find the "perfect" GS. 

I learned ALOT along the way. You just have to take a leap of faith and trust your gut in what ever breeder you decided to get a pup from. 

Also if theres a dog show close to you go. Talk with some of the breeders there and meet some dogs. If you do go make sure you go early, GS alot of the time show first because they dont require alot of grooming. Theres a show this weekend close to me and im going for the simple fact I have become friends with alot of the breeders and handlers over the years and my breeder i got my GS from will be there.


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## JakodaCD OA

in addition to asking for breeder references, I think this board is an invaluable source of wonderful information regarding breeders/kennels. 

I do agree in the end trusting your gut and going with it is the way to go.

To comment on wunderhund, I know nothing about them, but I did read their contract and it sounded like a good one to me) (not that I base getting a puppy purely on contracts but it gives me an idea of the breeder themselves) 

I also agree with Jean, if you can go meet a variety of gsd's, like the ones that GSRNE offers, this can give you an idea of what types are out there. 

Shows in CT are far and few in between, most are specialities with am lines, Checking out doggie related events will give you more of an idea of what's out there IF there are gsd's in the mix)

This weekend there is also a Pumpkins & Pooches event in Colchester CT on the town green (sunday 9-4) Fidelco will be doing a demo, K9's, lots of dog and kid activities,,the info is here
http://www.colchesterlions.org click Pumpkins and pooches)

I'll be there weather permitting, with my saucy aussie who loves this kinda stuff,,Masi well, she isn't as much of a social butterfly as Jynx is )


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: maverickgsd1Insteed of asking about every kennel you run across why don't you ask the breeder for a few refrences and make a few calls to them. Ask them your questions and see what they say. Dont get me wrong, im kinda enjoying this its kinda funny but intresting at the same time. Why dont you look at http://www.24kgsd.com/ they are the ones i decided on getting a pup from. I was in your postion a few years ago, trying to find the "perfect" GS.


Reason I do ask about "every" breeder I find because when I talk to them they all seem to give me the answers I would want to hear. I spoke to couple or looked at couple websites that kind of automatically turned me off but I am new at this and I cannot pick up on little stuff still. Thats why I throw it out here (the ones that look good to me) to get your opinions because when someone who has been doing this for some time or has done it in the past will be able to point out some things I may miss.
I guess I am not a natural like some people.

I will try to meet all those breeders in person to get the better feel eventually but figured asking here would weed out some that should "obviously" be avoided.

As I have said before I am not ready to have the pup shipped. just not yet at least. thats why I am looking at local breeders first.
Also rescue is not my first option at this juncture for reasons stated previously. I have actually thought about it first.

I tried to find some shows around here but came up empty.

Ruby, I couldnt agree with you more. I do not care if it is a "top breeder" or not. What makes them that? I dont know, but this guy has some championships/titles under his belt so he prices his pups accordingly I guess.
All I know is that I do want a stable pup that will be a joy to have around for as long as possible.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I hope you didn't misread my post. 

I was saying don't rescue. 

But go to the event. 

There are two events this weekend that will give you exposure to a lot of dogs from the sounds of it. 

And I was wondering how many GSDs you've been around lately-these events will hopefully allow you to get to know some and give you an opportunity to key in on what you want. When you go to one breeder and then another you are only seeing those dogs, when you go to an event with a bunch of dogs you get to see the behaviors and temperaments (and sometimes you may even get to see some of the health issues-no! don't give him a treat he can only have salmon caught by an Inuit off the cost of Alaska on a Tuesday, and flavored with cumin or he will have diarrhea and get a skin infection!!!) of many. 

Have fun!


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## smyke

I hear you Jean. 
I will try to check it out but the weather is supposed to be nasty this weekend.

I actually found some German Shepherd shows coming up around here. I may check those out too.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: smyke
> Reason I do ask about "every" breeder I find because when I talk to them they all seem to give me the answers I would want to hear.


Very true.

If you want a top German conformation type dog that will win in the show ring, Wilhendorf is your kennel. I will PM you more....


----------



## smyke

Good temperament is what I am after first and foremost.


----------



## Doc

I would suggest temperament and health first and foremost.


----------



## smyke

how could I have missed that. thank you Doc.


----------



## smyke

this thread is getting kind of long so I hope people are not burnt out by it and will still check it out.









While I am trying to research as much as I can I am focusing on this one particular breeder. 
Lady is very nice and responsive via email. I havent talked to her on the phone yet but hoping to go out and visit hopefully this weekend. they are judges and apparently are busy this time of year.
Her website has been updated and it doesnt show it but these are the parents of the upcoming litter.
DAM
http://www.vongrafenstein.net/MirkaVomEmkendorferPark.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/538597.html
SIRE
http://www.vongrafenstein.net/WaldoVomEmkendorferPark2A.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/457042.html
both look very good to me

From what I have learned so far these are show lines, correct? I guess these colors will usually be show lines. I keep reading about "banana backs" and stuff like that and get kind of worried. is it true that these dogs sometimes can barely run? I love the look (mostly color not the sloped butt) but at the same time wouldnt want to get the dog that will be limited in what it can do even as a family pet.
Or are these opinions out there a little overblown?
what are your thoughts?


----------



## JKlatsky

I think that a lot depends on the severity of the "type". Some GSL are more structurally unsound than others. Sort of like the American Showlines...some are beautiful and balanced and still have the right type, and other are extremes. 

Did you see the thread on Pedigree Dogs Exposed?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1181474&page=0&fpart=1

This is a good example of GSL that are too extreme and have compromised structural integrity, so you have an idea what people are talking about. I think the best way to evaluate this in the litter you are looking at is to look at the parents. How do they move?


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyI think the best way to evaluate this in the litter you are looking at is to look at the parents. How do they move?


thats why I want to visit the kennel as soon as possible to "meet the parents".

Dogs I referenced are german show lines, right?


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## maverickgsd1

These dogs from what i can see and im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but they seen to have very high prey drive.


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## JKlatsky

Yep! German Showlines


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: maverickgsd1These dogs from what i can see and im sure someone will correct me if im wrong but they seen to have very high prey drive.


what makes you think that, Mav?


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## JakodaCD OA

gorgeous dogs, and I say definately go check them out. 

I know "natta" about the west german showlines, but I guess these would be categorized as west german showlines that also do shutzhund? ) 

I cannot speak for Mav, but maybe the high drive comment comes from the fact the dogs do shutzhund? If so, not necessarily true by any means....

I'm glad your going to check them out )


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## smyke

I may be fired soon and not be able to afford a pup if I keep spending more time on here. LOL

I went through some posts in the Breeding section and found that prey drive is not a negative thing so I am not worried about it. I was just curious how Mav would pick up on that.
Hey, I am planning on feeding our dog RAW so hunting his own dinner (squirrels) may not be such a bad thing.


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## BlackPuppy

> Originally Posted By: smykeI went through some posts in the Breeding section and found that prey drive is not a negative thing so I am not worried about it.


Unless there's a lot of it and you have small fast moving children. My female has a lot of prey drive and if a child runs past her, she will grab for the kid's arm. And we know "grab" means with mouth and teeth. 

She's 4 years old now and she's much better around children, but there's a certain size of child, right around 3 feet tall and usually male, that she will still try to grab. But she will run from the 5 year old neighbor kid. I guess he's much scarier.


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## smyke

Hhmmm, that would not be good. 

My son is 7 and very tall for his age and our girl is 4 and about... I have no idea how tall she is. LOL 
But its not them I would be worried about but other kids.


Well, in that case I want to know how maverick figured out they had high prey drive.


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## onyx'girl

I don't see anything on the website to suggest they have high prey drive or not. Even a GSD without much preydrive would possibly nip a child when they are running around. It is a herding instinct. That is why supervision is important.
The only thing on the site that made me wonder is why they would give the bordatella vaccine to an 8 week old pup? They shouldn't even have any shots til around 9 or 10 and the bordatella is really not necessary, IMO.


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## Liesje

I think GSDs as a whole are supposed to have high prey drive (and high other drives too...what combination is debatable). So when I got my GSDs that was just something I expected and don't hold against my dogs.


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlThey shouldn't even have any shots til around 9 or 10 and the bordatella is really not necessary, IMO.


Kennel cough vaccine? interesting, i will ask when I talk to her.

As far as shots go in general I saw on most (if not all) breeder's websites that they give pups their fist shots before they leave at 8 weeks old. is that not good either or am I just confused?

Yeah, all dogs have some kind of a drive.


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## Chris Wild

IMO, drive and brains/judgment/self control/discernment/whatever you want to call it are two different things.

There are low/no drive dogs who will nip kids. And uber high, drive over the moon dogs who are total mushes with kids, are very gentle and sedate around them, and would never in a million years get their drive triggered by a running kid, much less try to grab a kid.

Two totally different things in my mind.


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## smyke

I think when I said drive was no problem was after reading one of your posts Chris.









Thanks for reasurance.


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## maverickgsd1

ok i know im going to catch some flax about this but heres my opion. I have a very mild GS wouldnt think about harming a flea that has a pedi with sch all the way through. then i have a GS that i do sch with super high prey drive full working line. Hes a good dog around the house but you have to keep a eye on him, he has so much energy that he was not a nice indoor dog but also wouldnt hurt my 4 year old daughter. In reading your post i was under the impression you were looking for a GS without alot of high prey drive? Just because a dog is in training for sch doesnt mean there a bad house dog either. Im my opion again, a GS with very high prey drive would need TONS of exercise to burn off. Also a good breeder would be asking you what you plan on doing with the dog and pick one that fits your life style. The breeder ive been talking to asked me about sch and i told her i have no plans of doing sch with this GS and she said "well that makes a difference" in what pup to place with me.


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## SunCzarina

Mike, just to add to what Chris said, my dogs are the insane prey drive posse. I could type all day with the things they've done to birds and small animals - especially my older dog the skunk killing goddess. With my kids (6 and 4 1/2 year old twins), they're calm and steady. They know the children are not to be chewed.

The pup was a nippy with them (and me) when he was small but he's learned not to nibble on the kids. What I used to tell my kids was Otto doesn't have hands to touch you so he uses his mouth. There were scratches but never an instance where he drew blood as a young pup.


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## smyke

right, I told my breeder what I was looking for. and answered all of her questions to figure out what would be best for me.
I havent had the chance to talk to her in person yet but planning on it in very near future. 
I dont think I said I didnt want any drive but that my main concern was a dog with stable temperament that will be good around my kids. I wouldnt want a dog that would just lay there all day either.
From Chris' posts I gather that its not a rule of thumb that the dog with high prey drive will be biting my kids everytime they run by him. 
Frankly I think he would tire his jaws out very quick. LOL

Jenn, I am not worried about my kids at all with the pup. My neighbor just got a golden lab pup and my daughter has a bite mark on her nose. did not phase her at all. she loves Marley.








and it absolutely makes me feel better to hear that about your dogs. 
Skunk killing reminds me of my boxer who had 3 or 4 "notches on her collar" in that department. nothing would stop her once she took off but she was the best dog ever with little kids. she once almost bit my neighbor who was yelling at his kid. LOL
oh, the good old times.


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## debbiebrown

i think prey drive or not is not the issue, i think its finding a pup/line with solid nerves. you get a fearish nerve bag and anything is possible. unfortunately they are out there, and i have seen them come from some of the best breeders. call it a fluke thing...who knows.......
proven lines, repeat breedings with the same parents, references, etc do help. but, no one really knows 100% what that 8 weeks old puppy will be like in a year or two., they grow, change, go through stages, etc.......


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## JKlatsky

High Prey drive with small children I think can be an issue with a growing adolescent dog. Yeah, you have the children running in the yard but you also have the kids waving around their toys. My puppy has high prey drive and anything that I swing around, he wants to grab. I think you can teach good judgment, but this is why you would obviously invest in training. They don't come "good", we have to make them that way so I could see where there could be some rough spots in the beginning. 

I'm in love with my male with kids. He's extremely stable with them and seems to understand that they are small people. He won't play rough with them the way he'll play with me. He has a very high threshold for pain as well which I think is helpful with the kids because he doesn't notice the ear pulling, tail pulling, and awkward head patting. I think this might be a trait I would look for in a family pet coupled with the solid nerves. 

And don't confuse drive with energy. To me they are separate qualities. I've seen some very quiet high drive dogs. They come out, do their work with power and intensity, go back to their crate and chill. They like to work, but don't need to go all day. The high energy dog is the one that has to GO. My female is more like that, high drive and high energy. She likes kids but I wouldn't trust her with them. She wants to GO and if she thinks she can play with you, she'll knock you over trying to shove toys into you. She chases things, paces, whines, all because she is looking for an outlet for her energy. 

And I don't know if this holds true across the board, but when I raised 2 puppies at them same time one was definitely a biter and the other one was a licker from the get-go. I'm not saying that they both didn't mouth, but one would coming in biting and HARD, the other would coming in licking and eventually mouth. We kept the biter, and placed the licker with a family with 3 small kids. He was just a really sweet puppy. He had drive, liked to play with toys, but was just a sweet puppy.


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## Jason L

Quiet and high drive, chill in their crate and the come out do work with intensity ... I'll take a dozen of that!


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## JKlatsky

I've only ever seen 2, and no their owner wouldn't sell!!


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## Jason L

You're a tease


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinYou're a tease












Maybe we can help Mike with what to look for in a puppy. The qualities that made us say 'that's the puppy I want to have in my life for the next 10 or 14 years'

There were 2 puppies in Otto's litter that the breeder thought would be a good match for our family. The first one came out and started chewing on my son's sneaker. I asked to see the other one!

With Otto, it was the twinkle in his eye. The intelligent look with touch of mischief.

How he came out of the xpen, confidently walked up to me and my children, played for a few minutes then walked off to explore.

I crunkled up a ball of paper, threw it towards him, he smacked it, picked it up and shook it. We also played a bit of tug. He liked that!

I played with his feet, he didn't do much

geeze, I don't recall any of the other puppy temperament tests. 

After I met him, I met his other 4 brothers. He fell asleep when he went back in the pen. Then I wanted to hang out with him again, although I was pretty sure it was going to be him. He came out of the pen and let me hug him and carry him around for 10 minutes. Then I called him Otto and signed the paper.

Look at the little devil eyes

















Intense at 5 weeks old









This is a pup who every trainer who's ever met has said 'You want a SchH dog, that's him'. He's insane outside with the ball, chases every bird, squirrel and bug. Yet he's calm in the house, mature for his age and he's very patient with my children. He's a loving boy with all my kids, the boys, well they're a bit rough with him becuase they're boys and my daughter just wants to hug him and squish him and call him baby Otto.


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## smyke

did they charge you extra for the perfect dog? LOL


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## SunCzarina

I could just tell you he's east german and that's why he's perfect.









He's a good boy from solid parents who came to me with a solid little disposition but it's been no bed of roses perfecting him. He ate the roses. Seriously, german shepherd puppies will eat beach roses - do you know how spiny they are? 

He still pulls on leash. Goes bonkers if the kids run out in front of him on a walk. He went through a phase where he ate the ears and noses off the kids stuffed animals. When he was 7 months old, he ate the stuffing out of a victorian couch - a real victorian era couch. A few weeks ago him and the puppy next door were barking at eachother when a skunk came along and sprayed the pair of them in the face. They kept barking. 2 days later, the pups were at it again, they both got sprayed AGAIN. Mercy they still make GG Bean skunk clean. 

I could go on, but no puppy comes out of the box perfect. Some of them have the deck stacked a little better than others.


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## smyke

so where do I find east german black/tan or black/red pups? arent most of them sable or black?


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## zyppi

has anyone posted this site for you?

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinQuiet and high drive, chill in their crate and the come out do work with intensity ... I'll take a dozen of that!





> Originally Posted By: JKlatskyI've only ever seen 2, and no their owner wouldn't sell!!


I really hope this is just a joke, because it disturbs me if it is not. 

This is the way they SHOULD be. And I have known and owned and trained with many, many such dogs.. Dogs who are high drive, work with intensity in all phases, then chill in the house, settle in the crate. In my experience it's not that unusual. Are they all that way? Of course not. But there's way more than 2.

If a dog has sound nerves, good overall temperament, and solid intelligence and judgment (something GSDs should have, but people don't seem to talk about much) this is all very possible. As is living in the house with small children, other dogs, cats... I know one who's best friend is the house <u>rabbit</u>. Really shouldn't be that hard to find as this is what a GSD is supposed to be!


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: maverickgsd1 In reading your post i was under the impression you were looking for a GS without alot of high prey drive?


I agree that in terms of what Mike is looking for a high drive dog wouldn't be the best fit. But even litters from two high drive dogs will produce some pups with more moderate drive that would work out quite well.

It's the idea that it is *drive* that makes a dog hard to live with, unsound around kids, etc.. is what I take exception to. Because it's not. Drive has nothing to do with it. It's <u>nerves</u> and <u>brains</u> that figure in here.

Squirrely, hectic, hyperactive, can't settle down and are always in motion dogs are not that way because they are high drive. Many are NO drive and wouldn't chase a ball if their life depended on it. They are that way because they are weak in the nerves. 

For any dog, be it for work, sport or family pet, nerve is the single most important factor IMO. Especially in a home with kids. 



> Originally Posted By: maverickgsd1Also a good breeder would be asking you what you plan on doing with the dog and pick one that fits your life style. The breeder ive been talking to asked me about sch and i told her i have no plans of doing sch with this GS and she said "well that makes a difference" in what pup to place with me.


----------



## Jason L

Chris, here's hoping my pup will be like that! You probably don't remember but in fact it was one of your PMs to me a few months back about Malinois (something about Mals have more drives than brain) that convinced me to switch my search from Mal back to GSD


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## smyke

Thanks Anne.

yes, I had it figured out that I wanted West German line based on looks, but after watching that video "pedigree dogs exposed" I am not so sure. how can a dog that barely walks win a show?
what makes me feel better is that all those dogs have to be SchH1 at least (I believe) to be shown and bred and all the dogs in the pedigrees I posted earlier have that title. All Sires were SchH3 as a matter of fact. Thats a good thing, right?

Chris: Thanks again for your input. I will definitely rely on the breeder to help me get the pup that will fit what I'm looking for.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: smyke
> what makes me feel better is that all those dogs have to be SchH1 at least (I believe) to be shown and bred and all the dogs in the pedigrees I posted earlier have that title. All Sires were SchH3 as a matter of fact. Thats a good thing, right?


Well..... IF the titles are legitimately earned, yes. They say something about the dog's drive, nerve, trainability, courage and overall temperament. Unfortunately, in many cases this isn't the case and many titles are given away by crooked judges, sometimes with the dog never even stepping foot on a trial field. With all that going on, it really means that you can't assume much of anything if you see a SchH3 title on a dog. While this sort of cheating probably does happen on occasion in the working lines, it mostly occurs in the German show lines because so many of those people see the title only as an obstacle to showing and breeding that must be gotten through as quickly and easily as possible, which takes away the whole purpose of the title in the first place.

Whole lot of reading here, but you might find this thread interesting and enlightening on the topic:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1187295&page=1#Post1187295


----------



## smyke

well, that takes care of that theory. LOL

Its amazing that its a well known fact (apparently) that these things are crooked yet nobody does anything about it. One would think judges would be the first ones to step up and disqualify dogs that clearly do not belong.
I know, preaching to the choir.


----------



## smyke

another question on that note: does KKL1 mean anything in this situation?


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## Chris Wild

KKl is a breed survey. To get it the dog must have a show rating of G or better, passing hip/elbow certs, and minimum of SchH1 (or HGH) title, and then pass a breed survey.

Whether it means anything is up to interpretation. 

The title requirement, as mentioned above, may or may not be legitimate. 

And how one views the sort of structure that tends to get accolades, and thus earn a V rating and high marks in a breed survey, in terms of being good or not is also subject to opinion.


----------



## Liesje

^ and the AD


----------



## Chris Wild

Yup! Knew I was leaving something out but couldn't figure out what it was... need more coffee!


----------



## smyke

sooooooo, what the [heck] do I do?

I appreciate you guys educating me. if it wasnt for this forum I would probably have a pup by now and possibly all kinds of issues down the road.


----------



## WiscTiger

Mike,

I love a Black and Red West German showline. I didn't watch the Pedigree dogs exposed but I think that was more the American line of German Shepherds, most AM line breeders have the angles so extreme the walk on their hocks.

I have Showlines and a two working line crosses. 

I will 100000% agree with Chris on the Nerve issue. I think a lot of people mistake hectic or hyperactive for high drive. The drive isn't the problem the nerve to sustain the drive is the problem. 

So if I was looking for a Showline that had solid nerve this is one of the kennels I would look at:

Carlos & Robin Huerta
([email protected]) Right now there is a problem with their website but if you go to this link you can look at their dogs.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/breeders/68.html

East coast I would look at
http://www.vomsilbersee.com/index.html
Chris and Joe have both working lines and showlines. They don't have a lot of litters so you might have to wait or they can help you find a good pup.

Val


----------



## Chris Wild

Well, honestly I think when it comes to finding the right dog, internet and message board researching can provide some good info... to a point. But it is severely limited. Then you end up in the brain is full/analysis paralysis/what the heck do I do state.

I believe the only way to really get a feel for dogs, bloodlines, different types/subsets of the breed, and what you do/don't want is to get out and see dogs. Lots and lots of dogs. Visiting breeders is good, but you also need to visit non-breeder venues where you can meet dogs. Local SchH clubs, obedience clubs, herding clubs, or whatever is available is a great place to start. Get out, see the dogs, watch them work, see them interact off the field, talk to their owners, and get a feel for them. That will go a long way in helping you clarify in your mind exactly what you're looking for and give you some hints on what sort of type/bloodline/breeder would be best to pursue.


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## smyke

Those clubs allow you hang around if you dont belong to them?


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerMike,
> 
> I love a Black and Red West German showline. I didn't watch the Pedigree dogs exposed but I think that was more the American line of German Shepherds, most AM line breeders have the angles so extreme the walk on their hocks.
> 
> I have Showlines and a two working line crosses.
> 
> I will 100000% agree with Chris on the Nerve issue. I think a lot of people mistake hectic or hyperactive for high drive. The drive isn't the problem the nerve to sustain the drive is the problem.
> 
> So if I was looking for a Showline that had solid nerve this is one of the kennels I would look at:
> 
> Carlos & Robin Huerta
> ([email protected]) Right now there is a problem with their website but if you go to this link you can look at their dogs.
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/breeders/68.html
> 
> East coast I would look at
> http://www.vomsilbersee.com/index.html
> Chris and Joe have both working lines and showlines. They don't have a lot of litters so you might have to wait or they can help you find a good pup.
> 
> Val


Yes definitely Carlos and Robin, I think you (Mike) were the person I PM'd about them? 

Anyway, the Pedigree Dogs Exposed was more on the German show lines, but the footage they used was terrible. The dogs were very type-y German show lines and they picked the most unflattering video clips possible (the dogs were shown in a very small indoor ring, were not pulling out and could not even reach a real gait with the space given or the clips used). Anyway, not defending the dogs, but they were German show lines and they used very strange clips.


----------



## WiscTiger

Most clubs don't mind if people come to visit. Give them a call tell them that you are learning about GSD's and would like to come and watch. Be prepared, at some clubs they are pretty close minded about dogs from breeders outside of their circle.

Val


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: smykeThose clubs allow you hang around if you dont belong to them?


Most will as long as you are not in the way. It's more about learning what *you* are looking for in a dog then getting breeder referrals, though that can happen to and it's a good place for that. But the more you see and experience firsthand, the more you can narrow down what it is *you* are looking for. Years ago I was clueless, I didn't know what I was looking for and I got really lucky that I ended up tagging along with someone who provided me exactly what I needed without me even knowing what it was. Now, I know what I am looking for but still learn new things every time we have a training session or I see a trial or watch another dog train. I am 100% satisfied with my second GSD and he has exceeded the expectations I had set for him and myself at that time. If I were looking for a third GSD it would again be something a little different...


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## Jason L

> Originally Posted By: smykesooooooo, what the [heck] do I do?


Mike, you need to go out and buy a dog!


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## smyke

now thats the best advice yet. thank you Jason.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: smykeThose clubs allow you hang around if you dont belong to them?


Most will, yes. Just call them and ask to visit, and explain why and what you're looking got get out of it, and the majority will probably be glad to have you out.

Our club has hosted several visitors who where there merely to get a better feel for the types of GSDs. We have mostly working lines in our group, but also a few show lines and "pet" lines. And the working line dogs run the gammut from top working prospect to middle-of-the-road to pet quality. So quite a bit of variance there too. Meeting the dogs, watching them work and talking to people is a very good way for those folks to get a better understanding of the different types.


----------



## smyke

So... I visited Sue at http://www.vongrafenstein.net yesterday and was super impressed. she met us at the gate and introduced us to 3 of her females (2 expecting currently) and one of her males. all were great dogs. my kids loved them. 
my 4 year old daughter was "training" them right of the bat telling them to sit and they obeyed, which was amazing. she didnt even have any treats. we are talking to the breeder and look over and she is sitting on the stone wall with this huge GS sitting next to her, she is petting his head and they are both looking in the same direction. kodak moment.








anyway, I think I found my breeder. Sue was super knowledgable, answered all the questions I had and kept going on and on. too bad she had another appointment but over an hour went by pretty quick. thanks to all of you I had some questions for her and I was satisfied with the answers. there was nothing that would pop the red flag. again being so new I might have missed some things but was trying to concentrate very hard.








There are few things she has going for her in my book (may not mean much but its a starting point, LOL):
1. she is local so any support I would need is 25 minute drive away. she is promising to help in any way she can, even with training and will not charge. she actually likes for people to come by with dogs so she can see their progress.
2. dogs are beautiful, exactly what I wanted.
3. price is very reasonable ($1300).

As I said she is expecting 2 litters within the next month. I previously posted the dam and sire I thought were bred but I was wrong.








Here are the dams:
MIRKA
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/538597.html
HOLLY
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/577338.html

And the sire:
JACKSON
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/531884.html

She is accepting reservations for both litters and I still have a choice. would you pick one dam over the other and if so why?
Any comments you may provide will be appreciated.


----------



## Liesje

I would pick Holly. a1 as opposed to a2, less line breeding


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## smyke

Thanks once again Lies. 
Yeah, Holly's pedigree shows no line breeding in the last 5 generations.


----------



## Liesje

No prob, that's just my first impression based on pedigree/a-stamps. It would also depend on how the dams and the puppies act.


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## smyke

when we were there both dams were out and basically you could mistake one for the other because they looked very similar with Holly being a bit taller. as far as our interaction with them honestly both were great with us and kids. One might have tried to jump on me looking for treats but I dont even remember which one it was.


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## JakodaCD OA

Mike, glad you've found what your looking for..I know 'nada" about west german lines, so I can't comment on which one would be better than the other..

I'm sure you explained to Sue exactly what you want, and I would leave it up to her to pick you the perfect puppy for your lifestyle..
(or maybe she can peg a couple and you can choose))

Sounds like you found a winner,,keep usupdated!!


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## smyke

She said she would definitely help me pick one out. I have nothing but good stuff to say about her so far. we'll see how it goes forward.


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## smyke

So I put myself on the list for one of the pups from Holly/Jackson litter but now started researching further and cannot find the parents in the OFA database even though they have been certified. is that normal?


----------



## angelaw

If the parents ARE Ofa'd, then they WILL BE on the database. You can't excluded dogs that pass only dogs that fail. So if you're positive of the names and they aren't on there, ask the breeder for copies of the ofa certs (most won't have a problem with this). If it says preliminary, those are NOT ofa certified. If it says a number and it appears to be legit, call ofa to verify as it should def. be on the database no matter what if it's passing. I would tend to think they aren't with OFA.


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## djpohn

Holly is listed in the SV database she has an "a" stamp - I believe she has a normal hips:
Holly Grafenstein (USA) 9148155 89

Jackson is also listed so he has an "a" stamp as well:
Jackson Wilhendorf (USA1) 9144752 91

http://www.schaeferhunden.eu/winsis_x/winsisshowdog.php?bb=AKC%20DN&id=15703101&tp=5


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: smykeSo I put myself on the list for one of the pups from Holly/Jackson litter but now started researching further and cannot find the parents in the OFA database even though they have been certified. is that normal?


Were they OFA certified? I see a-stamps, so unless the breeder said "OFA", then they are probably referring to a-stamps.


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## Chris Wild

^^ I was thinking the same as Lies. According to the PDB links they have a stamps. OFA database only lists dogs certified through them, not other organizations.


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## angelaw

Yes I assumed they were talking about ofa certs not a stamps


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## smyke

OK, so I am sure you knew this was coming:
what is the difference between stamps and OFA certification. if they dont have the latter should I be concerned?

is it just an european equivalent of OFA?


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## Liesje

A-stamps are done through the SV in Germany (just German Shepherds). OFA can be any breed or mixed breed, submitted to the OFFA and rated by a panel, then recorded in the database. There is also an a-stamp database on the SV site.


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## Chris Wild

Actually what is on the SV website is a ZW database. You can look up the ZW# for a-stamped dogs, but it won't give the a-stamp rating.


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## smyke

I started reading about it and there are mixed opinions on that matter: some say SV stamp are more reliable than OFA prelims and others swear that OFA is the final say. 
I'm just confused and want to know whether lack of OFA is the cause for concern.


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## lhczth

As of the first quarter of this year (that is the most recent CD I have) Jackson had a1 hips (normal) and a ZW of 91. Holly has a2 (fast normal) hips, C elbows and a ZW of 89.


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## smyke

Thank you Lisa, but can you translate it to a noob like myself?


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## lhczth

Normal is their highest rating. Fast normal (almost normal) is their second rating. C elbows is their third rating for elbows. ZW is the Zuchwert rating that is a number based on a formula that rates the hip rating of a dog, the ratings of its littermate, its sire and dam's production records, and the dog's production records if they have any puppies plus some other things. 100 is average. The lower the number the better.


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## smyke

so in other words there is no cause for concern based on the numbers for dam and sire. is that safe to say?

Could you check on Mirka vom Emkendorfer Park? thats the other female that is expecting and I have a choice of either.


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## Liesje

She is a2 (fast normal) and her ZW score is 98.


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## smyke

so as you have stated before Lies, Holly would be a better of the two hips/elbows wise.
I know this is all speculation but I just want to have a better understanding of what I am getting into.


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## Chris Wild

My SV Genetics CDs are at home and I'm at work so can't double check, but according to what Lisa posted Holly is a2 hips and C elbows. 

So if Mirka is also a2, both have the same rating. Holly's ZW is lower. But the C elbows would concern me a bit. What is Mirka's elbow rating?


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## smyke

I truly appreciate all your help.


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildWhat is Mirka's elbow rating?


Hopefully someone with access to that info will chime in.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: smykeso as you have stated before Lies, Holly would be a better of the two hips/elbows wise.
> I know this is all speculation but I just want to have a better understanding of what I am getting into.


Now I am not sure. Lisa has the hip info on her CD and she says Holly is a2, but her PDB entry says a1. I was going by the PDB entry (which is why I originally said just based on the PDB I would pick Holly b/c Mirka is listed as a2) but those are entered by anyone and you can enter anything. I would check with the breeder, talk to them about it and ask to see the ratings.


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## smyke

Yeah Lies, I knew you were going with PDB when you said it. thats why I want to research it further now. 
I was definitely going to talk to the breeder about it but thought that people having access to this info on here would be a quicker way to find out.


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## lhczth

Mirka is a2 with 'a' elbows. Both her sire and dam have a2 hips. Her sire has 'a' elbows. Her dam has "c'".


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## smyke

Thanks again Lisa. 
so which litter would be a better choice Mirka or Holly? Jackson is the sire for both.
Should I be concerned with mothers elbows the most or looking further down the line?


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## lhczth

Holly's sire is a2 with 'a' elbows. Her dam is a1 with a very good ZW of 79. She does not have an elbow rating. 

All of these things are taken into consideration.


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## lhczth

Hips and elbows are just one piece of the puzzle. What are you looking for? Are these first litters for these dogs? Has this cross been done before. If not their first litters than how have the other pups x-rayed? What are the temperaments like? The drives? Etc.


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## Amaruq

Which of the two breedings do you prefer? There is a LOT more to picking which litter than hips and elbows, although those are DEFINITELY two things to consider. You also need to add in working ability (if you plan to work/title in any endevor), over all health (more than just joints), personailty, drive and above all temperament. Take more than good hips/elbows to make a good all round member of the family or prospective training partner.


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## smyke

These are their second litters from what the breeder told me. 
I did not talk to the breeder in detail about this as I needed to educate myself first. I will ask her about pups from first litters and for some references to people who have those pups now. According to the breeder both bitches have great temperaments (were awesome when we visited) and are being trained in SchH, but it appears that may not mean a darn thing with Showlines.

I am looking for a stable companion first and foremost.


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqTake more than good hips/elbows to make a good all round member of the family or prospective training partner.


I know that, but as a greenhorn I have no clue how to evaluate all the other stuff. I can only go by what the breeder tells me and what I can find online and this great forum.


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: lhczthHolly's sire is a2 with 'a' elbows. Her dam is a1 with a very good ZW of 79. She does not have an elbow rating.
> 
> All of these things are taken into consideration.


I just realized I actually met Holly's sire Waldo when I visited the breeder. I saw him run and stuff and he looked awesome. He was great with my 4yo daughter who played with him and even made him sit as soon as he came over to her. LOL 
Her dam is from the same breeder so she may be on site. I did not ask.

*Which of the two breedings do you prefer?*


as pointed out by Lies earlier Holly has no linebreeding in her pedigree so I would take that as a plus. other than that both dams are the same in my uneducated opinion.


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## smyke

still waiting for the breeder to call me back.

any opinions in the meantime?


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## Alto

Go back & spend time with both girls & decide based on that - any puppy, no matter how well bred, may still have issues; alternately if this is a major factor for you, you might instead look at older pups that have already had their prelims done ... 'course still no guarantee that they won't develop problems later in life


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## smyke

yeah, I have come to accept that no matter how great a pedigree is issues may arise. 
going into it HD/ED was the only thing I could think of. I am kind of obsessed at this point I guess.
All this is just theoretical but I wanted to know based on just the ratings posted by others if one female's litter would be more desirable over the other one. 

when we visited we were only there for an hour so I will try and get in there again to spend more time with them and I want to talk to the breeder about it but cant get her on the phone for some reason. hopefully will have better luck over the weekend.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think this is about von Grafenstein? I just saw that Lando's Mom may have a dog from there? 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...ch=1&fromprof=1
Those are her old posts. Always fun to talk to someone who has a dog from somewhere you are looking.


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## smyke

I talked to the breeder yesterday and tried to figure this thing out but I am no closer to the decision than I was before the conversation.

She confirmed the ratings for hips/elbows on both dams and sire. as far as temperament goes she says that Holly and her dam are a bit softer than Mirka so that may be a bit better litter for me, since I am looking for a companion and not competition or show dog. other than that both are great. both around kids all the time and perfectly fine.
when I asked about their previous litters she said Mirka (due in 3 weeks) had her pups in November of 08 and Holly (due any day now) in January of 09 (heat cycles more often?) so neither of those litters had any x-rays done and if they did she does not know about it. she takes no news as good news because usually people would call her immediately if there were problems.
She is saying that C elbows should not be a concern and that sometimes ratings are only as good as the x-ray taken (i guess that could go both ways too) and thats the reason they bred her to sires who have A ratings across the board.
Good thing is she is not pushing me in any direction. she answers my questions and basically leaving it up to me to decide. she is confident that I will be fine with a pup from either litter.

So, my head is spinning again and I just dont know what to do. 

I asked her to email me her litters planned for the future so I can maybe compare and wait a bit.

I know there is no new info here but chime in with your opinions please.


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## cliffson1

You can't get a guarantee on a puppy, so go to a breeders that you think is creditable, pick or receive the puppy you like and get the dog...whew!! At this point you are way past examining something that is hidden and CAN be found!...JMO


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## smyke

You're right Cliff. I should just get the dog and enjoy her instead of losing my sleep over things I have no control over. I guess having A ratings in the pedigree for 5 generations may result in some pups with problems.
You try to make as good a decision as you can but its a coin toss at the end anyway.

I will cancel my shrink appointment now. LOL


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## cliffson1

Mike, glad to see you received my post positively...it was meant that way....get your puppy and really invest the kind of enthusiam you have for the process into the puppy and you will see dividends beyond comprehension...Cliff


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## WiscTiger

Mike, Cliff is right. You do the research to set the odds in your favor of getting a pup that will be a good match for what you are looking for. I think feeling comfortable with the breeder you choose is important. I think part of getting what you want out of a pup is what you do with it once you have purchased it. Yes genetics are important, but a good training/bonding foundation is very important also.

Val


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, it's time to start cookin' or get out of the kitchen. (Mixed my metaphors there to avoid a censored word...)

What I mean is, you've done the research, gotten info & opinions, looked into various breeders, discussed things with them & seen the dogs you're especially interested in. It's now time to delve deep & discover within yourself which dogs & breeders you're drawn to & why.

Only you & your wife can make this most personal of decisions. You will be cheating yourself if you delegate that task to anyone else or make it largely on the basis of others' opinions.

Many dogs have a 'good temperament' that might be ill suited to your circumstances. From all you've posted you want a dog that's extremely stable, not unduly suspicious, fairly social, not highly reactive & slow to bite. 

Have you discussed the temperament you're seeking in depth with the breeder(s) you're interested in? If not, please do. The details of what comprises a 'good temperament' are (IMO) essential, particularly in your circumstances where you have small children who undoudtedly will have other children over to play & carouse.

IF you're confident the breeder is producing your kind of dog then go for it. Nobody will know better than you how comfortable you are with a breeder or how deeply his/her dogs resonate with you. KNOW what you want, what you like & admire, be certain that matches well with what you need, & then grab it up.

Frankly, IF I strictly took the boards advice, I'd have passed on both Sam & my little Djibouti. This board is an invaluable source of info, education (& opinions!) but in the final analysis I know best what I want, expect & need. You don't seem to have much confidence in your judgment & I'm not sure why that is.


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## smyke

Ruby, I hate to admit it but you nailed it with that last statement. 
I dont know why that is either.
I knew that at the end that decision would have to be ours and ours only. I guess I am just afraid that compared to all that knowledge out there I basically know nothing about GSDs. 
To sum things up: I love how those dogs look, from my short interaction with them they behaved perfectly and the breeder seems to be good and knowledgeable. What else do I want, right?


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## RubyTuesday

Mike, any dog is a learning experience...much like kids, marriage, living on your own. My Siberian Huskies were more difficult than any decent GSD I've encountered. (It's almost impossible to imagine how much less biddable they are...& prey driven...& escapists extraordinaire!)

Relax just a bit. Use the info you've gotten, follow your deepest instincts, err on the side of caution & you're gonna find yourself a marvelous GSD pup. Just be certain it's the pup *you* want.

Did any of the breeders have a retired adult beyond the one asking too much? Adults are unbelievably easy as well as uber loyal & loving. If you're hesitant about your ability to handle/train a pup go for a well mannered, well bred adult.


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## smyke

none of the breeders I talked to had any adults available. 
And to be honest with you I know I will be able to handle/train a pup. my biggest fear is its health and/or my ability (or lack of) to choose the "right" one. thats why I asked so many (some might have been pretty dumb) questions.
Now that I think about it I do know a lot more about GSDs than I did a month ago. Thanks to all of you of course.


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## RubyTuesday

As with humans, to some extent health & longevity is an unknown. Even the healthiest, long lived lines can have an occasional pup with problems. Research helps you stack the deck, but that's really the best you can do. (While many good breeders 'warranty' their pups for 2-5yrs, getting your money back is usually a pittance of what the additional medical expenses will be.)


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## smyke

that is all I am trying to do, stack the deck in my favor.


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## smyke

so I decided to go with the female from Holly/Jackson litter. they should be born any day now and will be available right around Christmas.








already took the week off from work.

I want to thank all of you for sticking with this awfully long thread and educating me. I dont know what I would have done without you.
Rest assured there will be more questions from me very soon so be prepared.








You guys (and gals) are awesome.


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## lhczth

Good luck with your new puppy and have fun.


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## Jason L

Very cool. Congrats!


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## Doubleminttwin

very cool, can't wait to see pics of your new girl!!


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## JakodaCD OA

great ! Can't wait to see pics!!


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## smyke

Yeah, me too. LOL


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## RubyTuesday

Congrats, Mike! I'm thrilled for you. I probably asked as many questions as you did, I just asked them of myself & then ferreted out the answers from books & magazines. (I had dogs yrs before I had computers). You can't be too careful when you have small children.


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## LandosMom

good choice Mike. Sue is good people and her dogs are great. Watch out for that water dish though!


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## smyke

> Originally Posted By: LandosMomWatch out for that water dish though!


Why, they like to drink a lot?


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## LandosMom

they like to play in the water.....


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## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: smykeso I decided to go with the female from Holly/Jackson litter. they should be born any day now and will be available right around Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> already took the week off from work.
> 
> I want to thank all of you for sticking with this awfully long thread and educating me. I dont know what I would have done without you.
> Rest assured there will be more questions from me very soon so be prepared.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You guys (and gals) are awesome.


I have not read this post in awhile, but after catching up I was going to suggest it wsa time to decide. Sometimes the more you weigh the harder the choice and you actually confuse yourself.

You have chosen a good breeder and all things being equal I think the Holly litter is probably the better choice for your family.

Can't wait to hear about them being born and seeing pictures. What a wonderful Christmas gift for your children!


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## smyke

yeah, I cant wait either. they should be born any day now if not already. Sue said she will keep me posted and send me pics so as soon as that happens you will get to see them. I promise. 

Once again thank you all for your support.


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## Jason L

Now the excruciating horrible long wait begins!!!!







(I've been waiting for mine since June ...)


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## smyke

Tell me about it Jason.
Pups were supposed to be born by now but I have not heard from the breeder. unless they were off on the due date.


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## smyke

I just saw on the breeders website that the pups were born already and that everyone is doing fine.

I dont have any details but will post as soon as I do.









I think I'm obsessed with my dog already. See what you have done? LOL


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## onyx'girl

The breeder I got my pup from had play by play pupdates as they were whelping! I was on pins and needles from the get-go. Talk about obsessed! The net is good for feeding our obsessions!


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## smyke

Thats about where I am sitting too.









She told me she would give me the play-by-play also but maybe didnt get around to it just yet. 
I emailed her and hoping to hear back soon.


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