# Age to start??



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I should be (hopefully) getting my new SchH prospect puppy in the next few weeks. I was wondering the reasoning behind the start times for the different phases. I've heard some people say they start obedience right away, and some wait a specified amount of time. The same for protection. I would just like to hear the reasons for these opinions - is it based on genetics? Handler? Helper?


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

In no way am I a Sch expert, but OB is something you can work on right away. 
Your aim is to build focus and develop muscle memory in your puppy. For example, if you're going to teach him to heel later, maybe you might want to teach him to walk next to your side with his head up. If you want focus, mark/treat whenever you get eye contact. 
Always positive, always fun (marker word/clicker training is great for puppies). 
Try to stay away from Sit/Down/Stand drills and keep it challenging and full of movement (you can make him chase his food reward). Teach him to follow treats (luring) in your hand so that you can control the position of his body by controlling the nose. Work on handler focus (engagement) and prey drive with a flirt pole; let him win often.
I recommend you google Micheal Ellis/Leerburg and watch some of Micheal's free puppy videos. 
You can either buy his DVDs (which are really expensive...) or rent them off Bowwowflix.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Well, a pup is an infant, with baby teeth that will get replaced @ 5 mos. You don't send an infant to school, and you don't make a teething youngster do bite work. So how much you can do is limited, and how much is too much too soon is debatable, depending on what you intend to do later. You have some youngsters exhibiting genes very early, and some don't. Development, when rushed, can be counter productive. It should be about the dog, not the handler, or the helper. Reading the dog is the handler's and helper's job, and mis-reading can set you back. Think tortoise and hare, and realize this is not a race, anyhow.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

The sooner you start everything the better, like the day you get your pup. You should be checking out clubs and have one picked out already before you get him. Start taking him to the club right away and let them guide you in how they do things.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I am in a club and have been an active member for about 8-9 months now. I am comfortable with the TD and the other members. I'm comfortable that I will get the help/guidance I need but I like to read and learn more and from multiple sources and know that there are a wide variety of opinions on this forum. 

I am also familiar with clicker training and the basics of starting a green dog in the sport (which I have done). I've watched a large number of the Michael Ellis streaming vids available online and have several of the DVDs as well.

I have read posts where people say they do NOT start protection until a year old and others where they start at day one with some basic exercises. I was wondering the _reasoning _behind each. For example, I've read that for a young dog who has a primary defensive drive, they are better off starting older, when they are more mature and better able, mentally, to handle it. I've read that prey driven dogs can start younger for similar reasons. Those comments were made off-hand in regards to other topics so I was hoping for some further explanation of _why _the decision was made to wait or start young. And if I interpreted the original comments correctly.

ETA: I am not in a huge rush and I'm content to adapt my plan around my pup and what he can handle. I'm just wondering/looking for more info...to learn.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm all for starting a pup right away. They are a blank slate with no bad habits to break and are sponges waiting for you to show them the way. Training a pup is so fast and easy and positive.

I don't see any reason to wait until the pup is older and has developed bad habits that you will have to correct. You would be missing the best training time in your dog's life.

I think the people that wait to train do that because that's what they've always done and aren't willing to move to the kinder, more positive way of doing things.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Elaine said:


> I think the people that wait to train do that because that's what they've always done and aren't willing to move to the kinder, more positive way of doing things.


Ok, THIS was one of the things I was wondering about. Thank you for the straight-forward answer!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think people say to wait because often times people A. overdo it or B. can't keep it fun for puppies. Bottom line is, if you're all about compulsion in training, including OB, then you really shouldn't be training an 8 week old puppy. I think OB work is great for puppies if you keep along the lines of shaping and fun. Crate games....learning to follow the hand, etc. But I don't think (at least IMO) that puppies respond well in the long run for competitive OB with other methods. 

Never had the issue of when to start protection work as this is my first puppy too. Very different opinions. My understanding of the 2 camps has been that camp A--starting early is working the dog in all prey and camp B is aiming to not start the dog in protection until they can start bringing in defense.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Falon, I think one of the things you can start right away is the tracking. I have watched these pups grow now to 4 mos old, and they are most intrigued by following a scent on the ground. This is something very natural for them, and I think to tap into that and develop it now would be beneficial. I am only doing very basic stuff in OB with them. It is developing a bond with me and working the brain (teaching them how to learn). I dont think they need to be pushed like some do to get titles before a certain age, and it may only serve to discourage the dog from liking to do it.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

good luck with your pup. I wish I could help but I am by no means an expert


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I can share with you the information that I have gathered. It is not my first hand experience.

*Obedience*
Reasons to start early: Early imprinting. Work on positioning and forming a bond.
Reasons to start late: Let the puppy have fun. Don't squash their drive. Some the reason is that they train with compulsion.

*Tracking*
Reasons to start early: Early imprinting. 
Reasons to start late: Actually haven't read or heard anyone saying not to track right away

*Protection*
Reasons to start early: Bring out prey drive. Work on targeting, grip, and other basics
Reasons to wait: Young dogs do not have aggression. Working often in prey can habituate the dog to work only in prey, then it takes more compulsion to bring out the aggression. Waiting until the dog is older can allow you to use more positive ways to bring out aggression.

My philosophy with my puppy is imprinting. I learned that some people don't call this training, some do. Here is a summary of what I am doing for imprinting for each phase.

Tracking: Working on searching for food on different surfaces, associating food and human scent, learning to solve problems, downing at articles, and working on correct drive state.

Obedience: Working on the meaning of basic commands (sit, down, watch, here), positioning, and lots of focusing.

Protection: I am not training for protection on a helper until he is a year old, but working on targeting and drive with a flirt pole and a tiny bit on grip with a rolled up piece of towel. I won't really work on grips until he has his big boy teeth.

_BTW if anyone with experience sees anything that I am missing or am doing wrong with the foundation training, feel free to pipe in I like feedback._


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

play training as a baby - focus for food, clicker, imprint tracking - as babies.....personally, I do alot of trading objects with 'aus' after having 2 not taught to out young (as per TD) that had MAJOR MAJOR issues later on with dumbbell release....ended up with a dog who got excellent in every OB exercise but ended up with 70-71 in ob at sch2 and 3 for fighting over the dumbbells! Depends on the dog...clicker work as a pup would have given me a V in ob with him I am convinced now that I have alot more training experience....I also like playing with the pup with a flirt pole, and making sure she will grip the rag fully...

Puppies are sponges - if the genetics are right - you can do sooo much with positive shaping clicker type interactions!

Lee


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Ruthie said:


> I can share with you the information that I have gathered. It is not my first hand experience.
> 
> 
> My philosophy with my puppy is imprinting. I learned that some people don't call this training, some do. Here is a summary of what I am doing for imprinting for each phase.
> ...


It sounds like you are on track and understand why to do some things...and why NOT to do other things. Most people have already given incredible advice...so just work with and encourage the drives of your puppy and stay positive and fun!!!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Thank you everyone for the responses! Basically affirmed what I was thinking so that is good.



wolfstraum said:


> play training as a baby - focus for food, clicker, imprint tracking - as babies
> 
> Puppies are sponges - if the genetics are right - you can do sooo much with positive shaping clicker type interactions!
> 
> Lee


Precisely what I had in mind. I am a positive trainer first - I love clicker/focus/perch/imprint style training. Love it and it comes easily and naturally to me so I usually utilize that if I can.

I am thinking the genetics will be there...although I guess you never know but I did ask specifically for a very high drive puppy - for toys, interaction, food. Will find out within the next couple of weeks if that is going to happen for sure. The lines seem to be quite given to that type of training judging from what I've read/heard/seen in videos of the parents and what my puppy's half-sib (same dam) is doing and how he learned.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Elaine said:


> I think the people that wait to train do that because that's what they've always done and aren't willing to move to the kinder, more positive way of doing things.


Yep that's the reason I do it, I'm just old fashioned and too stupid and stubborn to change. I couldn't possibly have trained enough dogs to in both methods and have personal experience that leads me to train the way that I do. 

I should stop waiting for my dog to become coordinated enough to heel like I want him to. I should place expectations on my dog, that he can't reach, only to have to retrain my dog later on for what I really want. That's the smart thing to do.

I should stop waiting for my dog to mature emotionally before I start bitework. Why wait for the aggression to develop when I could just wiggle a buggy whip with a rag in front of my dog and hope that pray drive carries him through on trial day.

Why can't I learn? :headbang:

If only I had videos, by a guy that NEVER titled a dog in schutzhund, and the internet when I first started I wouldn't be so dumb and lazy.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> Yep that's the reason I do it, I'm just old fashioned and too stupid and stubborn to change. I couldn't possibly have trained enough dogs to in both methods and have personal experience that leads me to train the way that I do.
> 
> I should stop waiting for my dog to become coordinated enough to heel like I want him to. I should place expectations on my dog, that he can't reach, only to have to retrain my dog later on for what I really want. That's the smart thing to do.
> 
> ...


Defensive a little bit? :smirk:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

FG167 said:


> I should be (hopefully) getting my new SchH prospect puppy in the next few weeks. I was wondering the reasoning behind the start times for the different phases. I've heard some people say they start obedience right away, and some wait a specified amount of time. The same for protection. I would just like to hear the reasons for these opinions - is it based on genetics? Handler? Helper?


You can probably guess where I stand on this!

As far as obedience, I start day one but not necessarily training obedience skills. With Pan the number one thing we worked on was eye contact in front and basic position. Seemed kinda dumb and boring at the time but now as I am just beginning to train him to heel I find that the darn dog just heels! He will do a whole BH routine and he doesn't even have a "Fuss" command yet. I'm super-glad I did the silly clicker-food eye contact work. I didn't do that with Nikon and don't get the same focus (this is not the only reason, he's a different dog and you know that too, but I'm sure this would have helped). Also I like to do the perch work because it gives the dog something to work on without actually working on formal commands/behaviors that might be better suited for training when the dog is a bit older. IMO there is absolutely no reason that training a food driven dog to hold eye contact and pivot on a perch is going to effect your obedience negatively in any way and no one here can convince me otherwise  Also you probably saw me doing the fake-heeling with food in my palm. I do this not really to train heeling but to help the dog develop the physical sense of where I want him to be in basic position while we're moving. Again with Nikon I did not like how he doesn't really "collect" in the rear. This could be due to his health issues so it's not something I will ever try to "fix", but with Pan I figured I'd do the fake-heeling with food in the palm just to build that "muscle memory". To me this is not the same as training a lured heel. Like I said I never introduced a heel command and I never gave him any less food than when I started (some people DO train heel this way, and slowly give less food while moving their hand farther out of the way... I gave the same amount of food and kept his snout in my hand from 7 weeks to this evening at 10 months). I prefer to teach heeling with a prong and a toy, with various methods of toy delivery but either way this happens latter b/c of the prong involvement. How much later...depends on the dog. Pan I could have waited longer, Nikon I should have started earlier. I have a different take on how heeling should look and how to train it than Ron does but his way gets him the results he wants and my way gets me mine. I am being careful with Pan right now, keeping it toned down so he looks almost flat but I know he is a dog that could very easily overload. The drive is there and there is plenty of time to really finesse where I want to cap him, right now I want to train the behavior so that it is correct and not create a monster because the dog in my podium dreams is not the dog I can live with and do all my other activities with.

Protection....one of those "do as I say not as I do". No harm in waiting but I struggle to wait because it's so much fun for the dog, I'm driving 1.5 hrs and paying all that money, dangit I want to work my dog! You know how I feel about prey/defense. I believe that Pan has a good deal of both but his first reaction is to try prey so that is why we are being careful about what we are actually rewarding. I was satisfied with his work two weeks ago and didn't feel the need to work him at all this past weekend. I think targeting is important for the safety of the dog especially if you have a high drive tunnel vision type dog, but that can be worked outside of the context of protection. I was doing some targeting with Pan tonight using a larger two handled tug. I'm not really into doing the rag and tug stuff with puppies unless it's me doing it for fun or for targeting, but to me that is not bitework/protection. If I want a dog with a solid grip, I buy a dog with a solid grip. I don't care for "grip development" or "bite development". You know my dogs probably could not be more different as far as their biting/gripping behaviors, it is what it is so I don't mess with it or stress over it.

In summary: 1) I think that genetics should inform training 2) I think that every handler has strengths/weaknesses and comfort levels with various methods and there's nothing wrong with that so long as the expectations are realistic given the dog's genetics.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think you'll go wrong in Kastle's training whatsoever Falon. 
You are in a great group of handlers(sans me) and a TD/helper that knows not to push and when to add some pressure...according to the dogs temperament/genetic make-up.
I can't wait to watch this pup grow and progress!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm sure you will do an awesome fantastic job with the puppy!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Is pointing out that a statement along the lines that people who wait are un-evolved, unwilling to learn, stuck in a rut and unkind is absolutely ludicrous, not to mention misleading and ignorant, being defensive? If so I guess I'm defensive to because I agree with Fast. :shrug:

To me, training is about far more than just teaching exercises and behaviors. It is about manipulating the dog's drives and mental state. There are certain drives and mental states that I want associated with certain phases and exercises within those phases, and those differ from one exercise to the next. Much of training is associating the desired drive and mental state with what we're doing, teaching the dog to take cues from me about what is expected, and load to that correct drive and mental state in each situation. Honestly, if that foundation regarding the attitude with which the dog approaches the work is well laid, teaching the actual exercises themselves becomes much easier. But doing that requires creating the desired attitude in the dog, and association with the work to habituate the correct attitude. And conversely, avoiding making associations between the wrong ones. And that just can't be done if the dog isn't at a place in development where the correct drives and mental states can be readily accessed and encouraged.

When that happens, is completely dependent on the individual dog. I have my preferences in training on how I like to train, which are to start tracking and obedience early, and wait for more maturity to start protection.  But not every dog fits that mold, so preferences need to be put aside in favor of recognizing where the dog is at and working with that. At least if I'm going to get where I want to go. If a dog isn't ready to do the work in the manner I want, then I'm much better off waiting until the dog is than to build the wrong foundation because I'm impatient. 

Protection is the most obvious example of this. And here I’d definitely be a waiter. I've trained and titled dogs both ways, and much prefer the results from waiting until the dog is able to bring the full range of drives I want to work with to the table. But then that also hinges on my preferred approach to protection. I don't want a dog working primarily in prey and viewing protection as a rough game of tug of war. I want the approaching it from a more serious standpoint. Achieving that requires utilizing many drives in training, not just prey. But those other drives aren't there in a young dog. So better to wait until they are present and accessible and the dog has the maturity to utilize them, than to start before they are there. To start before the dog is ready would be to condition the dog to approach the work in a manner I don't want, and then put us in a position to have to try to change the dog's mindset later on in the training. Much easier, and frankly more fair to the dog, to teach it correctly from the beginning than to significantly change expectations later and try to create a complete paradigm shift in the dog. 

There’s no specific timetable to wait. I hear people who are in favor of waiting often pretty much put a date on the calendar at 12 months or 15 months or 18 months at which they deem the dog will be ready and they get started. It’s not that simple. Different dogs mature at different rates. My 20 month old female has just in the past couple of months shown that she’s ready to work the way I want her to work, so we’re just now getting started. Her litter brother has been working in protection for a year already. He matured much faster in certain drives and has been ready to work the way we want since then. She has not. It would have been a disaster to try to start her before she was ready, and while not a disaster had we waited with him it would have been a waste of time. Sure, she could have been chasing a helper around biting a rag for pretty much her entire life, and could have learned to bark to flush her prey. But that’s not the approach I want her to have for protection, not the reason I want behind her barking or the drive she expresses for barking. Building the behaviors is easy. Building the right mindset behind them is different and since I care about those reasons and want specific ones, that means waiting until the dog is ready.

While protection is probably the most widely known and discussed phase of the debated on when to start, this applies to other phases as well. Like protection, tracking has not only a specific set of desired behaviors but desired drives and mental states that are conducive to the dog displaying those behaviors. And some dogs are ready for that sooner than others. I’ve found that tracking is the phase where starting earlier rather than later has been a good thing. At least with the vast majority of the dogs I’ve encountered. For tracking, I like to start early with young puppies (7-8 weeks) to take advantage of the higher puppy levels of food drive, and for the simple fact that more can be accomplished with less time and space due to the smaller size. I’ve not always had the ability to start early due to outside factors like weather or age of acquisition of the dog, and with every one of those that I wasn’t able to start early I’ve always wished I had been able to. I've had the most success in tracking with starting early, but even then with the majority of those started as puppies there came a time in adolescence where we stopped tracking for a while because the dog's mental development for a while became less conducive to the sort of approach to tracking I want the dog to have. Drive and energy increased, but concentration and focus got left behind for a while. So rather than practice a behavior and mental state that I do not want associated with tracking, or fight against what was just a stage of development that would even itself out again with time, we just went on hiatus for a while until the brain development caught up again and the dog was mentally capable of approaching the task in the manner I want.

For obedience, again I like to start early with marker/clicker, food lures and lots of praise. How much of that obedience training revolves around teaching actual exercises, and how much is just imprinting the proper attitude about the work and building basic skills to use later for more structured training, again depends on the dog. The dog and the end goal, much more so than any perceived training schedule or recipe, dictates what we focus on, the order in which exercises are learned, and the pace at which we progress. 

Then outside of training, there is so much that is taught, for good or ill, just in daily interactions and some of that also needs to be dictated by the temperament and mental development of the dog. Some need more socialization than others, some would benefit from less and too much can be counter productive. Some need drive built and encouraged. Some just need it channeled into appropriate outlets. Some due to their level of drive and associated nerve strength need to start learning impulse control and containment at an earlier age, whereas for others too much of this would be counterproductive and inhibit drive. Some need more quiet, relaxed time with the handler so they don't associate all handler interaction with highly energetic activities and overload in drive at the mere presence of the handler or cue to work. Others need less quiet, relaxed time with the handler so they do show more drive and energy in their interactions when working. I'm sure I could probably keep going...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Fast touched on another very important aspect of "when to start", and it is one that is very often overlooked and not taken into consideration, and it has to be. That's the question of where is the dog developmentally from not just a mental standpoint, but a physical one.

Competition obedience involves the dog developing a very specific set of skills, many of which require very precise physical mechanics. Heeling is a lot more than just walking along with the handler. Good competitive heeling involves a lot of body awareness and control, and the physical awkwardness that a lot of young dogs go through can seriously inhibit that. So it pays to wait until the dog is physically ready as well so that things can be taught properly from the start without letting the dog habituate incorrect behavior and then trying to go back and fix it later. Something like heeling requires the dog to develop strong muscle memory for the proper way to move, and there’s just no point in letting them practice the wrong thing and commit to memory.

Our two young girls have been opposite extremes in this regard. Heidi started obedience at 8 weeks old. Heeling included. And has pretty much never stopped. Both her mental and physical development allowed for that. She grew at a slow, consistent, proportional rate and never went through a gangly stage. She had unusual dexterity and coordination for her age throughout her puppyhood and adolescence, so learning all those subtle mechanics of heeling… collection, impulsion from the rear and lifting in the front, keeping her body straight when her head isn’t, turning on the forehand and backhand, tucking her but to sit, etc… have never been a problem for her to perform easily. Since obedience is my favorite phase and I’m always impatient to start, and her specific mental and physical development was conducive to her learning to not just do the exercises properly with all their mechanical subtleties, but also to approaching them in my desired way regarding her drive and attitude and mental state, we started early and kept on going without any breaks and with her it worked. Had she been mentally ready but not physically, we’d still have done obedience but would have focused on different things and put of something like heeling until she was ready. Had she not been mentally ready, regardless of physical development, we just would have waited

Now Jazz has been quite different, mentally and physically. Mentally she wasn’t ready for obedience until a few months old, so we just waited for her to grow up a bit. Then once mentally ready, she still wasn’t ready physically for most things so obedience was limited to those things not constrained by physical ability. She's been about the most gangly, uncoordinated youngster I've ever seen. For the last several months she’s resembled a GSD body propped up on stilts with giant clown feet. She’d regularly trip over herself chasing a ball or playing with the other dogs, or just trotting through the house, and face plant on the floor when hopping off the couch. Nothing wrong with her, just a very awkward teenager. Getting those appendages to fold themselves at the right angle for something as simple as a correct sit or down was tough enough. It would have been completely futile to expect her to be able to perform the correct mechanics of something like heeling, and counterproductive to try and end up just letting her practice improper mechanics. Much better to wait until she had the physical ability to maneuver her body correctly, and thus allow for habituating the correct mechanics of heeling and committing them to muscle memory, than to let her habituate bad mechanics now due to physical constraints, and then try to fix it later. Now that various out of proportion body parts have caught up with each other and she’s completely physically capable of learning those things, heeling training has started.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Chris you mentioned that some puppies are/aren't mentally ready to do OB. How can you determine whether or not the puppy is ready mentally? What do you look for and how do you eventually come to the conclusion that the pup is ready to begin?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not Chris but I think some of it has to do with how one intends to train. Some people are all about ball drive and making the dog obsessed for a toy so that can be used to amp up the dog and as a lure. Some dogs do not develop interest in toys until later. My own dogs didn't show much interest in chasing balls or tugging until 6 months. Some people use various methods of compulsion/corrections and this is not really appropriate for an 8 week old puppy.

Both my pups had a lot of hunt/food drive so that shaped their early imprinting. I used all food. At that age it was not really about training actual commands but imprinting training methods, if that makes sense. I like to freeshape most behaviors, either through compulsion or positive reinforcement and some dogs need to be introduced to freeshaping as a way of learning before it is really valuable training actual behaviors.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I see 8 week old puppies at our ScHh club working a flirt pole. They don't get to tug, once they bite the rag, they win it. They always win. That way they don't lose puppy teeth. Don't over do obedience, and if you do it, praise with a toy. Build drive, too much obedience can kill drive needed for work.....


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris and Liesje, those last few post were great!


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Fast said:


> Chris and Liesje, those last few post were great!


Agreed! Very informative. 

Liesje I am doing the same thing now with Kinley. She is a lot like your boys in that she doesn't have a lot of interest in toys while young. She values food over everything else so I am using that to shape the behaviors as well. Clicker/marker training has been a blessing! I say marker because I rarely use the clicker; too much stuff to carry! I didn't marker train Denali and she is a lot like Nikon. The eye contact is there, but not there like it is with Kinley.
I was just wondering what behavioral queues are looked for in a pup that lets you KNOW they're ready to do OB, protection, agility etc. 
It is probably that I have a lot more to learn about drives so maybe I am not seeing the whole picture. 

How does one know that a dog is in the correct drive for the work may be the better question.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

A lot of it for me is based on the pedigree. I talk with Pan's breeders who trained and titled the sire and own and train the dam, and others who own littermates, half-siblings, and siblings from a previous litter (his was a repeat) so I had a pretty clear idea of how I'm going to train what and when before I even got him. With him I am actually doing the opposite of what Victoria said ("Build drive, too much obedience can kill drive needed for work...."). Pan has plenty of prey drive as suggested by his breeding and I do not want a dog that becomes obsessive about prey, locked in prey, or overloaded in obedience or protection. Right now his obedience is very structured, I present myself calmly rather than hectic movements and commands, there's not all this crazy dancing with toys, I know how much drive he is capable of and right now I want to reinforce thinking clearly so his obedience is almost on the flat side but the important thing is that I know my dog, I know what are goals are and how I plan to achieve them. Not every training session is about looking flashy and scoring points and eeking every last drop of drive out of a dog that is at risk for overloading.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I wanted to add, that while a lot is based on pedigree, when I start looking for a new dog, I look for pedigrees that suggest a dog will behave a certain way and thrive with training methods that I am familiar with. So it is both, and sort of circular. The pedigree informs my training, but my training also informs what pedigrees I prefer.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Ok correct me if I misunderstood. Basically what you're saying is that the pups lineage helps you determine when to start training specific things in specific ways and that if you know your dog will be genetically predisposed to having a high prey drive, you want to balance that with more calm so that he doesn't develop 'tunnel vision'?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Me personally? Yes. I do not like dogs that come out on the field whining and "leaking" and gasping for air because they are so overloaded for a toy. I like the dog to be correct, focus, intense and look happy and engaged but not obsessed. One main reason is that I cross train lots of other sports and this behavior is not useful or acceptable. I've also started doing some other "PR" type activities such as demos at school and parades and I need the dogs to be trained so that they are safe around kids that might have toys (not b/c of aggression but I've seen people get tagged or accidentally bit by dogs going crazy for toys). I do train with toys and use them quite a bit but I don't like to use them as a lure or have a dog that is really working for the TOY. With a high prey drive dog that has a lower threshold such as my puppy, it is not difficult to end up with a dog behaving this way so I am shaping my training to keep him in check and not make such intense prey drive a habit. I believe you can have a dog that has a correct, focused heel without being overloaded. Some people, however, LOVE dogs like this and encourage toytoytoy.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Gotcha! I just wanted to make sure I understood. I happen to agree with you and I see some of these extreme drive qualities in Kinley that Denali never even came close to. However, I don't know anything about her lineage because she's a mutt.
I want to harness the drive for sports (agility I hope), but I don't want her to be obsessive either (just flashy!). Maybe there is a happy medium?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Is pointing out that a statement along the lines that people who wait are un-evolved, unwilling to learn, stuck in a rut and unkind is absolutely ludicrous, not to mention misleading and ignorant, being defensive? If so I guess I'm defensive to because I agree with Fast. :shrug:


No, pointing that out that you disagree with someone's statement is not defensive. But, a drippingly sarcastic and semi-childish rant was IMO very defensive, and to someone who is trying to learn not only extremely unhelpful but rather annoying.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Sorry, Amy, I love ya but we'll have to agree to disagree on that then. Because I find the "semi-childish rant" far more appropriate and educational to the discussion than the sweeping generalizations, ridiculous assumptions and baseless accusations of the original post to which it was in response to, or a pretty much pointless post that focused solely on a dislike for the delivery and ignored the very valuable information within that comes from a basis of years of experience. But then I can completely understand, and share, the frustration behind the "rant".


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Sorry, Amy, I love ya but we'll have to agree to disagree on that then. Because I find the "semi-childish rant" far more appropriate and educational to the discussion than the sweeping generalizations, ridiculous assumptions and baseless accusations of the original post to which it was in response to, or a pretty much pointless post that focused solely on a dislike for the delivery and ignored the very valuable information within that comes from a basis of years of experience. But then I can completely understand, and share, the frustration behind the "rant".


That is ok. We don't have to agree on everything. 

I am admittedly a little low on patience for people being nasty right now. I would much rather have liked to read from Fast the reasons why he/she thought this was a ridiculous statement. 

I am not at all endorsing what Elaine said; I don't really agree with it either. I do know SOME trainers (not in the SchH world) who wait to do training with puppies because they use only compulsion, the statement Fast quoted was IMO generalized too much. Not everyone who waits to train does so because they train with compulsion and aren't willing to try other methods, but some do.

I also think there is a lot of ambiguity in this discussion about what is considered "obedience training" and the generalized statements are confusing.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Well...I'll stay out of this thread....no comments on what should/could be done or not....

*Especially since (we) are one of those people that encourage "flirt pole" activity with our pups.*...along with "puppy boxes" in tracking & food focus with puppies...etc...*
I like (working) with pups from as early as they are capable.....but it must be slow, and simple. 100% motivational.....so that it is not harmful.
*Actual "work" is not done until dogs are mature enough in both body and mind.*
*Agree to disagree...everyone has their own methods...(start early/start later)...and dogs have excelled either way.
JMO


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think people do what works for them, plain and simple. I know Falon and have seen her train and handle multiple dogs in multiple venues. I think she and I are pretty similar, both in how we do/would train in SchH but also how we train in general and where dogs "fit" into our homes and lifestyles. Heck we were joking about trading puppies. I don't think Falon is really the type that is going to develop her training based on the results of this thread, nor did she start this thread before hours of discussion on the topic and months with the Schutzhund club. Nothing wrong with throwing some questions out there and generating a little discussion. This is more in response to some of the earlier posts.

Can similar dogs be trained differently and both end up OK? Sure. I talk to the owner of Pan's littermate, the other dog in his litter sold as a good Schutzhund prospect and he is training very different than I both in obedience and protection (very little obedience until 1 year, protection mostly prey/sport) but I won't sit here and make snide remarks about his training or his dog because honestly I don't really care. His dog, his house, his life. We are both very happy with our dogs.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Not long ago, I was out at a SchH club watching the club members working their dogs in obedience. Basically, every single member was using food, toys and clickers. While some of the dogs were doing ok, it was painful to watch some of the others. One in particular, a show line male about eight months of age was really not responding. Yes, the handler was new but it was clear to me, just watching for a few minutes , that none of what was being offered as "rewards" were floating his boat. He was bored, uninterested and distracted. When the TD got the handler to be a bit more enthusiastic, I could see the dog start to come alive but it seemed everyone else missed it. The dog was interested in the handler and if she had simply put a collar and leash on and encouraged the dog with some genuine praise/ enthusiasm, the boredom would have been gone. Nope, that would not be "kind" or "fair" to the dog. At least that's the mentality that exists nowadays. She was killing that dog with kindness, literally. He was dying of boredom. He did not have that kind of drive, he had more pack drive but SO MANY PEOPLE can no longer see or recognize this in the dogs. Lately, I have seen a few show line dogs who responded really well to training using collar corrections and praise. This method of training is rarely seen anymore and IMO, it is to the detriment of the dogs and the breed. People are simply hellbent on using prey drive in obedience. That is NOT obedience, not for a GSD anyway. 

What has not been passed on, is the ability to read dogs. Way too few people can do this anymore and insist on imposing the method that THEY feel good about, without considering what the dog would respond best to. I am not talking about what most people are picturing either. Yes, there are corrections but there is praise and genuine enthusiasm from the handler that the dogs really respond to. It is a skill. I used to see more people who could do it. Now all I see is people waving food and toys in front of their dogs because that is what seems to be "socially acceptable". Many dogs are simply bored because they do not have the aptitude for that training and are subsequently "washed out". It's a shame the handlers are not the ones to go but that is what SchH training has devolved into. 
The fix of course, for the lack of skill in the people, has been to breed dogs that will fit the method. The people who think that has been a good thing....just don't know a thing about GSDs. 

Anymore,, I find SchH mostly disturbing to watch. Not because of the dogs but because of the ignorance in the people and the new culture that exists. It is all about the picture that people can see from the stands, not about real training or real GSDs for that matter. The comment from Elaine is where most people are at now so don't just pick on her. It is a shift in mentality , mostly based in ignorance, that makes it all just kind of unpleasant.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I think people do what works for them, plain and simple. I know Falon and have seen her train and handle multiple dogs in multiple venues. I think she and I are pretty similar, both in how we do/would train in SchH but also how we train in general and where dogs "fit" into our homes and lifestyles. Heck we were joking about trading puppies. I don't think Falon is really the type that is going to develop her training based on the results of this thread, nor did she start this thread before hours of discussion on the topic and months with the Schutzhund club. Nothing wrong with throwing some questions out there and generating a little discussion. This is more in response to some of the earlier posts.
> 
> Can similar dogs be trained differently and both end up OK? Sure. I talk to the owner of Pan's littermate, the other dog in his litter sold as a good Schutzhund prospect and he is training very different than I both in obedience and protection (very little obedience until 1 year, protection mostly prey/sport) but I won't sit here and make snide remarks about his training or his dog because honestly I don't really care. His dog, his house, his life. We are both very happy with our dogs.


I competely agree! I get information from tons of sources, but ultimately I do what works for me, my family, and my dogs. Nobody lives with my dogs but me and DH and we are ultimately the ones who have to live with the decisions we make.

I read Falons origional post as trying to understand the reasons behind both methods, not to say which one is better than the other or even to evaluate which one she would like to use, but maybe I am way off.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> People are simply hellbent on using prey drive in obedience. That is NOT obedience, not for a GSD anyway.


Can you explain? Or maybe this should be a new topic. I know from past posts that you train obedience with pack drive. What is your objection to prey for obedience? Should prey drive only be used in protection? (And I don't mean only prey in protection I know how you feel about that already.)


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Anne's last post was really good. It's funny that we both came to the same conclusion coming from completely different directions.

I think that the prey reward and the associated stuff is not the big problem. IMO, the problem is the withholding of the reward as the sole means of punishment in the dog's early life. If you wait too long before you start correcting a GSD they tend to grow up to be wimps. They need to be stressed by the handler and the world, to grow up into the types of dog's that we admire. It helps build a relationship between handler and dog.

When this kid is an adult do you think he's going to stress about the same petty BS that we do? Is he going to cry because some stranger hurt his feelings over the internet?









But so many people are trying to be "progressive" and "nice" that they turn their dog into this. You can't expect this kid to survive a civil war in Uganda. 










Our perceptions of kindness are not always the most kind for the dogs.

Notice that I'm talking about GSDs here not Malinois. That's a whole different can of worms.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Can you explain what you mean by "corrections" for young dogs? Your photo illustration has me imagining all kinds of heinous scenarios of doggie boot camp.  

Are you talking flat collar corrections? Voice corrections? Prong? E-collar?

Are young are you talking?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't know...that second pic, the kid just may hack the worlds security intel and not be stressed one bit. The first pic, the kid may keel over from bad water and not be able to carry on.

I agree, the dog/pup should know some pressure to build confidence and with confidence comes power.
It still depends on the genetics when to add in the magic ingredients. I'm still learning along with my maturing 'pup'.
Every training session brings more questions and sometimes answers.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> I think that the prey reward and the associated stuff is not the big problem. IMO, the problem is the withholding of the reward as the sole means of punishment in the dog's early life. If you wait too long before you start correcting a GSD they tend to grow up to be wimps. They need to be stressed by the handler and the world, to grow up into the types of dog's that we admire. It helps build a relationship between handler and dog.


Plus I see withholding rewards as a failure on the part of the handler. In the context of Falon's original question, IMO any imprinting and messing around with baby puppies should *always* be fast pace, fun, and easy for handler and dog. It should not come to withholding a reward b/c ideally the dog is not being asked to do something it can't do or doesn't know. What I just came to realize about my training is that it is not that as the dog matures I begin to "fade" lures and rewards, but as the dog matures, I often completely change the method/direction of the training (and not because one isn't working).

Also I think for some dogs withholding rewards can mean nothing, or if anything just causes frustration that might load up the dog to a point where he's not really thinking (and again not his fault because it has not been made clear what he is supposed to do and what he is not allowed to do). Like Anne was saying, if the reward is meaningless to the dog, who cares if the dog doesn't earn it?

Once I was watching a video clip once and a dog was demonstrating out of motion exercises. In the background a trainer figure that many people worship made a comment that dogs don't really understand not being rewarded. He was saying this in the context of getting a dog to perform the sits and downs fast, and how one might be tempted to simply reward the fast ones and not reward the not fast enough ones. I agree with this and have always felt this way long before I started SchH type training.

If there is actual refusal on the dog's part, well then I'd rather correct the dog and then help him get it right than just wait for him while he's waiting for me....


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> Are you talking flat collar corrections? Voice corrections? Prong? E-collar?


Yes. But it's not just corrections. I'm talking about making stress in general. But the topic was about training with the ball so my post was about that. 



> Are young are you talking?


Second day onward you can start with small things. Pulling the dog off of the teat. Making the pup have to work it's way back to the litter or mom. Chilling the pup. Hiding food instead putting it in a bowl.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't know...that second pic, the kid just may hack the worlds security intel and not be stressed one bit.


That dosen't mean he's tough.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> Yes. But it's not just corrections. I'm talking about making stress in general. But the topic was about training with the ball so my post was about that.
> 
> 
> 
> Second day onward you can start with small things. Pulling the dog off of the teat. Making the pup have to work it's way back to the litter or mom. Chilling the pup. Hiding food instead putting it in a bowl.


I am not being argumentative, but rather trying to understand what you are saying. Certain words and phrases mean different things to different people. Your post with the photos made is sound like you think that you should rough up the dog "smack him around" a bit so he won't be a wimp. 

This post I read more that you are saying that the dog needs to learn to solve problems or understand what the rules are. 

I know that there are people that believe that you shouldn't even say "no" to a puppy. That doesn't work for me. Sometimes voice corrections don't work for me and I grab a collar or scruff if they aren't wearing one to get attention and make it clear that the behavior is not acceptable. I hesitate to even type that because people will freak out at me. They think this is cruel, but to me it is just as cruel to not make the message clear, let them get away with bad behavior for months then change the rules. If my dog is about to swallow something that will harm him, what am I supposed to do say, "now puppy that isn't right". 

Is this what you are talking about?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

right....the tough one could be taken down by the one that has the brain....sometimes a balance is needed too.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> right....the tough one could be taken down by the one that has the brain....sometimes a balance is needed too.


You make the assumption that you can't be tough and have a brain at the same time.

I'm talking about the environment and how it shapes toughness and resiliency in a kid or puppy. Both kids might be the same if raised in the same environment.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> I am not being argumentative, but rather trying to understand what you are saying. Certain words and phrases mean different things to different people. Your post with the photos made is sound like you think that you should rough up the dog "smack him around" a bit so he won't be a wimp.
> 
> This post I read more that you are saying that the dog needs to learn to solve problems or understand what the rules are.
> 
> ...


Yes. But there is a lot more to it than that. Look at Liesje post above where she says that she changes her training sometimes. This is unfair to the dog, but this unfairness *when done right *can make dogs stronger. But as Vandlal was talking about you have to have a feel for the dogs and training. It teaches a dog that even when he is stressed and confused he can work it out. Do you see how a dog like that is easier to train and is more adaptable to new situations?


I don't think you are being argumentative in the slightest.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wasn't assuming anything. Just offering a different view.

Sometimes, tough/ brains go hand in hand... and brains may not mean wimp.

In fact, I was *agreeing* with your post.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> I wasn't assuming anything. Just offering a different view.
> 
> Sometimes, tough/ brains go hand in hand... and brains may not mean wimp.
> 
> In fact, I was *agreeing* with your post.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> Yes. But there is a lot more to it than that. Look at Liesje post above where she says that she changes her training sometimes. This is unfair to the dog, but this unfairness *when done right *can make dogs stronger. But as Vandlal was talking about you have to have a feel for the dogs and training. It teaches a dog that even when he is stressed and confused he can work it out. Do you see how a dog like that is easier to train and is more adaptable to new situations?
> 
> 
> I don't think you are being argumentative in the slightest.


I think I am understanding your concept, but missing the practical application. Is this all about problem solving and making the dog think, or about setting up boundries, or something else?

Can you give me a couple examples of a pup older than 8 weeks (since most of us are not breeders)?


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I want to say first, that I'm sorry if anyone was offended by anything I said. I learned compulsion based training through bird dog people/books and therefore I have to say that, for me, Elaine has a point. I *know* people that are very up-front about not switching to other methods of doing things because it's how they've always done them and that is why they wait until their pups are a tad older to start the "real" training. That is what I was agreeing with, I *do* believe that those people exist but I understand where others might have gotten offended. That was not what I meant and I'm sorry. Amy was right, the question was meant as an informative, evaluation of the methods. Why it worked for some, not others, how they handled it etc. Ultimately, I will be making my own training plan and doing what is best for me and my dog. And what I am personally capable of doing.

That being said, I am very appreciative for all of the in-depth replies. Exactly what I was looking for as far as information goes. I had a vague idea of why the different timelines were chosen among various people but having exact examples was extremely helpful.

I know the kind of end product I want, and I have an idea of how I'm going to get there, which methods I want to try and which I want to wait on. Luckily, I have a TD that is willing to let me try new things and also listens to what I want. When we put a plan in place, I will have plenty of help to make sure I am staying on a track leading where I want to go. 

I think that Lies is right, having also watched her handle and train multiple dogs, we have very similar styles and are very close in what we want in the end product.

I am impatient. I will be luring and starting obedience and tracking within days of getting my puppy. I think he's going to be prey driven and I don't want to end up with a dog that is already over the top in obedience before he learns what I'm really asking (aka the "correct" position/behavior). I don't want to expend a bunch of energy tryign to bring my dog back down to a functional level. But, I also don't want to consistently reward flat behavior when later, that will not be ok. Again, I have an idea of how to accomplish that but will need to try it out to see if it works. I put a ton of stock in muscle memory so will be doing really repetitive exercises where Kastle is just basically doing the exact same behavior over and over with his nose in my hand. He won't necessarily be paying strict attention, but his body will remember later. This pup will also be a house pet and my primary companion so he will be out and about with a lot of stimulation and experiences outside of this training. 

I'm also a huge fan of utilizing impulse control. I like to use it right away, even in my young puppies to teach them to more effectively use their energy. It brings more power into the things I *do* want them to do and tends to bring a lot of focus too. I personally don't like to handle dogs that come out on the field, any training field, or trial and are just already so over the top they are just looking for someplace to put that energy and if it's not readily available a melt-down of some sort often occurs. I like a dog to come out in any phase/place/atmosphere clear-headed and ready to go. I don't care if they're tense and just waiting. As long as they wait quietly and respond to my cues. Then, when it's time to go - I like them to explode into action and nail whatever it is I am asking for. I am big on wanting a dog to work for me and *know* it is working for me - the reward might be toy, food or praise - but ultimately, I am looking for a desire to be with and work for me. 

I'm not incredibly new to training but I am quite new to Schutzhund protection training and that's primarily what I was asking with this question. I do not want to end up with a crazy prey-driven dog that has no defense. What I was wanting to know was if a young dog *can* be worked in protection from a young age without that happening. From the responses it would seem that yes, it can but it depends on the dog. I have learned a lot from watching Lies with Pan because he *could* be a crazy prey-driven dog but Lies does not want that and her training and her training plan with our TD reflects that. That has been very eye-opening for me on drives and how to stimulate them in a young dog. I was looking for similar information - either to support or negate and definitely got that in this thread. I do think that handler skill and application weigh heavily in how a dog is worked as well. My plan might be altered not only if my puppy doesn't take to it well, but if I cannot carry it out as planned lol.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

To my way of thinking, there have been so very excellent posts in this thread, some very good discussion with alternating views that maintained civility and kept developing positively. Some experienced hands and some newbies, some people questing for knowledge and some willing to share.Some ole school information and some new school info. Perspectives from dog's position and perspectives from handler's position. Environment issues vs ideal issues. All of these things are what are considered when people make decisions on how to approach this topic or dog training in general. There is no absolute right way. I have also enjoyed the fact that the thread wasn't sidetracked by those that are defensive, annoying, and catty. These people are often not interested in learning or teaching and would have greatly damaged a thread like this. I'm not trying to patronize, I sincerely appreciated the quality of this thread, so much so that I shut my mouth and sat back and read/enjoyed....Nice work folks!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As far as protection goes, there is one major consideration. The helper. There are simply too few really talented ones, so, how you, as the handler, decide to work your dog will make all the difference. If you are new, less is best. 

IMO, the handler should be trying to learn as much about protection work, as the helper does, if not more, and understand what his or her body language is saying to your dog. Many helpers pressure young dogs without even realizing it, that is how unaware they are of their own presence, how to use a certain posture and mental attitude and when to change both in response to what the dog does. It really requires, once again, skill , and I have not seen very many who have that skill, especially nowadays. 

Lies touched on something I wanted to comment on. When you work a young pup in protection and decide that you will be trying to balance prey and defense, most of the time you are creating a problem. As has already been talked about, pups don't develop social aggression until later in their development. If the helper and handler do not recognize that it is not yet in the pup and try to bring out defense anyway, what they are tapping into is avoidance. That's when you see all the behaviors, that we do not like to see in protection, starting to form. Sitting off to the sleeve side, avoiding the front of the helper, pulling to the back to avoid the stress and , believe it or not, staring at the sleeve and refusing to look at the helper. The pup looks there to "avoid " looking at the source of the stress. Most of the time, that behavior is caused by too much pressure from the helper , where they are "locked in avoidance" . People think they are locked in prey because the pup can only answer with what he has inside. So, when he is stressed, he does what he knows, harder and faster but he doesn't become aggressive because he can't. It is not available. Very few people recognize the stress or realize that what is being asked of the pup is too much. Most of the dogs tolerate it and actually look like they are "having fun". The problems will make themselves more clear some time later. 
Once your pup is in that state of mind, you can just about forget changing it. So, if you are gong to play with prey work with a pup, you have to accept the risks of doing so. Don't try to balance defense/aggression and prey because the aggression is absent and even if there is some, there is not the maturity to allow the dog to use it in the way protection work requires. . 

I have worked dogs who only saw mild threats and mostly prey work. They change immediately when they see someone who is not playing with them. However, they will slip right back into the old behavior once they go back to the previous helper. Unless you have more than one helper to work on, working with what you have too young, will most likely put you in the same situation. That person is teaching the dog to view protection with him/her as a safe, happy game. The helper should be viewed by the dog as an adversary but if you teach him young that they can have a different kind of relationship with that person, well, you are just kind of stuck. Asking that same person to change that relationship later on, is not usually successful for a couple of reasons. First, it is not something most helpers can do and second, it is not something the handlers are comfortable watching. Many helpers will resort to pain to try to change things but really, the behavior has been set, so again, the more pressure that person applies, the more avoidance behavior is brought out.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Anne that makes a lot of sense.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Can you explain? Or maybe this should be a new topic. I know from past posts that you train obedience with pack drive. What is your objection to prey for obedience? Should prey drive only be used in protection? (And I don't mean only prey in protection I know how you feel about that already.)


I have explained it already in a few of my posts and a couple others have tried to explain what is called "genetic obedience". I will just add this point however. Obedience is used in everything a GSD does. Lets take herding or protection work for example. Not much use for a herding dog who will not respond to the handlers direction. Lots of dogs like to chase sheep but what is needed is a genetic attraction to them and a dog with the ability to work with his handler. Same with protection. Power is nothing without control as they say and there are dogs who will listen to the handler because they are genetically designed to do so. No e-collar or any other sort of device required because they are listening for their handler's voice. Like I said, people are using training tricks and devices to make the dogs appear to be obedient, attentive, whatever... but in reality, they are not . That has not been a good thing for the breed.
So many now seem to think dogs who are controllable can't be good in protection, that they are soft etc. Sure, if the rest isn't there but one is certainly not exclusive of the other and more GSDs should be this way. If you are not testing for it, you don't know if it is there. People use food and prey drive first now because they think that is how to get the points and basically because they lack the skill to train another way. The other aspect is what Fast said. The dog has to be able to withstand a bit of pressure. I personally do not think you can create that ability, it has to be genetically present in the dog but you have to see if it is there, especially if you want to maintain it through breeding. That was what SchH used to do. It put who the dog was on display.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Ruthie said:


> I think I am understanding your concept, but missing the practical application.


The practical application is in every bit of training or interaction you have with your dog. It makes the dog mentally stronger. IT'S NOT A TRAINING TECHNIQUE. It's a overall life style. It's the difference between being raised as a child warrior in a civil war and being raised in the suburbs of America. You get two different types of adults. 




> Is this all about problem solving and making the dog think, or about setting up boundries, or something else?


Yes, to all of the above.



> Can you give me a couple examples of a pup older than 8 weeks (since most of us are not breeders)?


No, but I'll give you a fishing pole instead of giving you a fish. 

Stress is a necessary part of creating a strong dog. You should create stressful situations for your dog so that you have control of the stress. 

And most importantly: A pussycat can't teach a lion to be the King of Beast. 

Now before you ask me any more questions, just think about it. Let it marinade and soak in for a while.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast I agree with most of it (the important parts). I struggle to challenge the dog (always in ways that I know he would succeed) in my overall lifestyle, so I try to make up for this in training. I work full time, I have limited space, money, etc so as far as just being "dogs" around the house, life is fairly structured and routine. In some ways I'm very lenient (most notably that my dogs usually have access to each other all the time that I am around) but in other ways I am strict. Often I setup training sessions that are basically problem solving, often involving some level of stress. Last night we trained a fair deal and I was never really working on an actual command or part of a SchH routine but I learned a thing about my dog which is definitely going to impact how I train the next skill we plan to work on.

Outside people often accuse "old school" trainers of doing whatever it takes just to get points and a title. I often find the opposite to be true. I know people who insist on training everything "positive only" and insist you can get a SchH3 without ever correcting the dog. Even if we concede that is true (which I don't believe), I feel THESE people are the ones that only care about titling their dog b/c if they cared about training their dog, reading their dog, learning about their dog they would not be so shortsighted.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I have explained it already in a few of my posts and a couple others have tried to explain what is called "genetic obedience". I will just add this point however. Obedience is used in everything a GSD does. Lets take herding or protection work for example. Not much use for a herding dog who will not respond to the handlers direction. Lots of dogs like to chase sheep but what is needed is a genetic attraction to them and a dog with the ability to work with his handler. Same with protection. Power is nothing without control as they say and there are dogs who will listen to the handler because they are genetically designed to do so. No e-collar or any other sort of device required because they are listening for their handler's voice. Like I said, people are using training tricks and devices to make the dogs appear to be obedient, attentive, whatever... but in reality, they are not . That has not been a good thing for the breed.
> So many now seem to think dogs who are controllable can't be good in protection, that they are soft etc. Sure, if the rest isn't there but one is certainly not exclusive of the other and more GSDs should be this way. If you are not testing for it, you don't know if it is there. People use food and prey drive first now because they think that is how to get the points and basically because they lack the skill to train another way. The other aspect is what Fast said. The dog has to be able to withstand a bit of pressure. I personally do not think you can create that ability, it has to be genetically present in the dog but you have to see if it is there, especially if you want to maintain it through breeding. That was what SchH used to do. It put who the dog was on display.


I think you made it very clear that you use pack drive in the "Genetic Obedience" thread, but I don't recall you explaining why using prey drive is NOT obedience and I am still not sure that I am clear why you say prey drive is WRONG. I am not arguing, just trying to understand. Are you saying that because the dog is working for a reward and not the handler it is is not obeying? Do you feel the same way about using food drive for obedience? If this is the case, then what does one do with a dog who does not have "genetic obedience"?

If food and toys are the "easy way out", can you explain the correct way? I am open other ideas. Can you give me an example? How would you teach "sit" without using food or prey drive?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> I struggle to challenge the dog (always in ways that I know he would succeed) in my overall lifestyle, so I try to make up for this in training.


I think that you are selling yourself short. Look at what you said in your last post:

I work full time
I have limited space
life is fairly structured vs In some ways I'm very lenient
I setup training sessions that are basically problem solving

I think these can all be stressful. You just need to add structure and use it as positive stress. And the dog does not have to be in some sort of active mode for you to do this. For instance, just missing a few meals can do magical things. 


I should go and get "positive stress" trademarked before some malinois trainer steals it and makes a video.



> Outside people often accuse "old school" trainers of doing whatever it takes just to get points and a title. I often find the opposite to be true. I know people who insist on training everything "positive only" and insist you can get a SchH3 without ever correcting the dog. Even if we concede that is true (which I don't believe), I feel THESE people are the ones that only care about titling their dog b/c if they cared about training their dog, reading their dog, learning about their dog they would not be so shortsighted.


I think that people like this have bigger problems in life that they bring to the training. I think some of the trainers like the ones you describe are not going 100% positive because of the dogs. They have personal problems (assaulted, abused, molested, etc). I feel bad for them and the dog. 

And I agree with you about most are lying about being 100% positive. There is a woman that is very vocal about being all positive that I saw slap the **** out of her dog in the stairwell of a hotel.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> The practical application is in every bit of training or interaction you have with your dog. It makes the dog mentally stronger. IT'S NOT A TRAINING TECHNIQUE. It's a overall life style. It's the difference between being raised as a child warrior in a civil war and being raised in the suburbs of America. You get two different types of adults.
> 
> 
> Yes, to all of the above.
> ...


Well... many marinade recipes call for soaking between 30 - 60 minutes, so I should be good now.

What I do for a living is work with people who are experts at something and help them teach other people. What I have found is that people who are very good at something have a unconscious competence. The sometimes don't know what they do or why, they just do it and are good at it. My job is to help them bring that in to consciousness and define it in a way that someone new can understand it.

So, please indulge me just a little bit.

Where this whole line of questioning started was with you saying that the issue that many people have with training their dogs is that they don't start correcting early enough and it makes them wimps. In your attempts to elaborate, you have brought out that the handler has to aware of this at all times and not just in training, that it is about working through problems, and that the handler has to be a strong leader worthy of a follower. Noted.

So let me stop being subtle here and just be blunt about my original question to you. I don't know who you are or anything about you to put what you say in context. I would rather not have a negative image of you that you beat up on your puppies and create overly stressful situations to make them "tough", but that is kinda the picture that you have painted at the beginning of this line of discussion. I want to think the best of people and this is why I was asking you for some examples. I am not really asking to be taught to fish, but rather to understand your point of view. 

Maybe I can provide an example and you can verify. I took Grizzly to his first puppy obedience class on Sunday. It is a indoor, fun, household manners type of class. At the end, there is an off leash play time. Sometimes I allow my dogs to participate in play time, most of the time I don't. Grizz is 15 weeks and I wanted to use the time to get a handle on how is reaction to other dogs. I plan to do therapy work with him as well as SchH and part of the evaluation for certification is to be in an elevator with other dogs. There was a 10 mo. old GSD and 5 mo old Rottie in the class, both female. When they were off leash, the GSD approached and Grizz was unsure. She started pushing him to play with her in a polite doggie way. She has a good solid temperament and wasn't bullying him in any way. The other GSD owner freaked a little and the instructor told her to back off and let them work it out. I was standing right there next to Grizz, but didn't "come to his rescue". I wanted him to work through it. The GSD saw he wasn't interested and went to play with the Rottie. Grizzly came and sat between my feet and watched the other two play. I didn't coddle him but stood still. He watched them play for a while then took a few steps away from me and gave the GSD a little bark of interest. I told him "Good boy. Get her.", in a calm tone reinforce the attempt to overcome his trepidation. When she approached, he came back and sat between my feet. He wasn't cowering or fearful. His ears and posture were alert. He was just unsure of what was going on. 

I was very pleased with the exercise. One, because it allowed him to work through being unsure (Although I think not completely there yet) and two because Grizz is very aloof. It has taken him a long time to warm up to us. I could see that he clearly recognized me as his handler/leader, followed Tuesday by his first genuine happy dance when I got home from work. (Side note: Just to stem any flurry of cautions. I don't plan on continuing to let him play in class long term. I don't want to create an expectation of play when he is working. At this age "training class", IMO, is more about evaluating my dogs' strengths and weaknesses and socializing.)

Is this the kind of thing that you are talking about, or did you truly mean it is all about corrections?

It is certainly up to you if you want to respond or not. Maybe your marinade recipes soak for longer.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vandal said:


> The other aspect is what Fast said. The dog has to be able to withstand a bit of pressure. I personally do not think you can create that ability, it has to be genetically present in the dog but you have to see if it is there, especially if you want to maintain it through breeding. ...........


:thumbup:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

What's abuse for one dog is not necessarily abusive for another. Things I do with my dog you might find abusive and vice versa. But I like to do well in the sport and abusive practices are not conducive to that goal. 

Your example was definitely not what I'm talking about. You put your dog in a situation that I would have NEVER put my puppy in. Putting my puppy in playgroups of unknown dogs has to many variables that can lead to a negative experience for my dog. Remember, I said that I like to have CONTROL of the stress. 

Lastly, I have given about a half dozen examples of what I'm talking about that do not include corrections. 



> What I do for a living is work with people who are experts at something and help them teach other people. What I have found is that people who are very good at something have a unconscious competence. The sometimes don't know what they do or why, they just do it and are good at it. My job is to help them bring that in to consciousness and define it in a way that someone new can understand it.


This clarifies some things for me. You are looking for a recipe or a formula that you can write down and follow step by step. That ain't gonna happen. Listen to what every single person here, that has a lot of experience training dogs says. They almost all agree that the most important thing about training is intangible, like an artist talent. In dogs we call it "reading a dog". And I could answer a million of your post, you could watch every video and read every book in the world, but until your "reading" comprehension reaches a certain level, I'm not sure you are going to get it. I know that might sound crappy and condescending and I apologize for that.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Fast said:


> What's abuse for one dog is not necessarily abusive for another. Things I do with my dog you might find abusive and vice versa. But I like to do well in the sport and abusive practices are not conducive to that goal.
> 
> Your example was definitely not what I'm talking about. You put your dog in a situation that I would have NEVER put my puppy in. Putting my puppy in playgroups of unknown dogs has to many variables that can lead to a negative experience for my dog. Remember, I said that I like to have CONTROL of the stress.
> 
> ...


Thank you for responding to my question. I am sorry, I missed your half a dozen examples. I will go back and read again. I only remember examples of new born puppies. I just assumed if this was something you did daily, you could provide more definanition around what it means to raise a dog without using with holding of reward being the only form of correction.

With my example, I was not suggesting that this was somthng that you would do. In fact I spent extra time explaining WHY we were in that situation because I know most SchH folks are opposed to dog-dog interaction. I was attempting to recognize application of having the pup work through problems. I would also like to clarify that I did NOT put my puppy in a playground of unknown dogs. I was with two other dogs that I observed for almost an hour and I was in control of the situation as well as having a more experienced GSD owner, the instructor, present. I was in a position to quickly prevent or respond to a negative interaction. 

I am absolutely NOT asking for a formula. I don't believe in dog formulas. I don't believe they exist. What I was attempting to understand is the concept. Examples help define concepts. I absolutely agree with you that ultimately you don't truly know something until you experience it yourself. However many people, actually the statistical majority, must understand the point first. Depending on a persons conative make up it could be critical. In fact, one of my biggest complaints about dog training in general is that those with experience often teach method rather than concept and the learner is left without troubleshooting skills or any idea what to do when their dog doesnt respond to the method. 

And BTW, to be a good artist you still need to understand concepts. A painter needs to understand the care of brushes, the properties of types of paint, the effects of chemicals on the paint to achieve a certain look. A painter can still share tips on brush stokes or types of brushes to use to receive a certain result. They can still be told things like which red and blue make the closest purple for mountains and that adding a little yellow can soften up a highlight. The teacher shares the knowledge with examples and the student applies them and makes them their own in their painting.

I am a theoretical/auditory learner. In order to understand, I first must learn the theory, then play it back in my own words or experiences. (and by the way, about 1/4 of the population is like me.) I can not go out and create negative experiences for my dog if I do not understand the concept and apply it to past experience of observance first. Reading a dog has more to do with response to the situation than how to achieve a result. I am actually not too bad at reading dogs for my level of experience. I know my adult dog very well, but what I don't always know is what I did or didn't do to make him that way.

The difficulty with written media is that we only have words to demonstrate with. If one is not willing to do so, then there is room for misinterpretation and some people are better at teaching than others.

I see at this point This concept may just be beyond my comprehension skills, so I will just drop it. 

Thank you again.


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