# Rough Handling Allegations of Best in Show - Crufts 2015



## basedinberlin (Aug 5, 2012)

Just seen this report in British press about a campaign to have the Crufts Best in Show winner stripped of her title. It comes after the handler was filmed picking up the dog, a Scottish terrier, by its neck and tail (photo at link) on the judging table.

The handler's defence was that handling terriers in this way was 'customary in the U.S.' I can't find any trace of this online, but can anyone confirm/deny? It looks like Crufts will accept this explanation in any case, which seems like a shame for animal welfare regardless of custom.

Not a good year for Crufts what with this, the poisoning(s) and even new allegations of a dog being beaten in the event car park. The event's had a rough history in recent years, and I'm starting to wonder if it's reached the end of its natural life. It doesn't seem to be about the dogs as much as the money any more, and that's a pretty broken system for a dog show.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Terriers are bred to have sturdy tails, they are used to pulling them out of holes when they " go to ground".. You will often see terriers lifted using the tail and neck. 
I see nothing wrong with the handler's actions, let's face it Scotties are very tough little dogs. At a dog show I would expect to see a terrier handled like a terrier.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

All handlers pick up terriers this way to put them on the table and off the table. It is not an issue and certainly not abuse.......... If you ever go to a show and watch terriers in the ring, you will notice the handlers hand is holding the dog under the neck at the base of the throat, usually with the flat of the hand and holding the tail at the base, not the tip. 
This allegation being made is stupid and sounds as if someone is mad that this dog won.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What idiots, even I know that Terriers can be picked up by the tail. 

The Western world has become filled with over sensitive whiners.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Maybe it's more of an AR issue, any chance to throw mud at Dog Shows.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I see them do this all the time. It doesn't look comfortable but the dog doesn't seem to care, and I don't know why the dog should be stripped of the title. It's not like she dyed the dog a different color or something. How the dog is being handled doesn't suddenly make its conformation less ideal.


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Any terrier that I have shown this was how I put them on and off the table. It's how I was taught. Terriers tails are "built" to withstand this as they have to be study enough to pull them out of holes etc when hunting vermin. 

Some people are just too sensitive and should not comment on things they no nothing about. This whole "issue" has gotten way out of hand .


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Yeah. This complaint is dumb. Terriers tails must withstand being grabbed and pulled. Gotta get them out of the hole. It's no big deal. 

People wanting to make trouble for no dang reason.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

This is way they pick terriers up. Someone needs to get a life.


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## basedinberlin (Aug 5, 2012)

Well, I'll be the first to say that I didn't know this about terriers! So I guess this makes me an idiot by GermanShepherd forum standards! 

I'm no expert on dog shows or anything like it, and seeing the dog handled like that this morning surprised me. It's probably naivety in large part, but I can understand how there's an outrage even if it isn't justified. It looks bad if you don't know the facts.

And maybe it's also a bit of general European sensitivity. We're talking about a place where e-collars and prongs are largely seen as barbaric, and often by lawmakers. We're probably all a little too soft, but maybe this helps to understand the reaction.

Anyway, I'm glad to have learned something... Off to get a life now... Ha.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The AR people and PETA and HSUS are out of control.....when will the general public learn that these groups are really anti animal ownership......and anti enjoyment of animals....their politics and propaganda is encroaching into every facet of animal human interaction both here and in Europe....Ringling Bros is retiring their elephants.....due to PETA lobbying......and I ***Have been behind the scenes*** quite a few times at circus'.....just like any where, the majority of people handling and training animals love their animals and do NOT mistreat them.....dog shows are already under scrutiny from AR activists.....and I do not doubt that the sheep who cannot think for themselves that follow PETA will help them do away with many many animal activities in the next 50 years.....

SAD SAD SAD

Lee


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Life is funny....especially when public opinion is trying to be shaped. 


SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm not a terrier guy and I knew this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope she isn't stripped of the title. That's ridiculous. Terriers are picked up this way, and it just seems normal. At least for us Americans it's normal. And yes, Scotties are pretty tough dogs. 

If it isn't one thing...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I was picked up that way repeatedly as a child.


SuperG


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## zx5go (Jan 7, 2015)

SuperG said:


> I was picked up that way repeatedly as a child.
> 
> 
> SuperG


...it's probably why your tail fell off. :wild:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

zx5go said:


> ...it's probably why your tail fell off. :wild:


And that would be why he got dropped on his head. :laugh:


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> The AR people and PETA and HSUS are out of control.....when will the general public learn that these groups are really anti animal ownership......and anti enjoyment of animals....their politics and propaganda is encroaching into every facet of animal human interaction both here and in Europe....Ringling Bros is retiring their elephants.....due to PETA lobbying......and I ***Have been behind the scenes*** quite a few times at circus'.....just like any where, the majority of people handling and training animals love their animals and do NOT mistreat them.....dog shows are already under scrutiny from AR activists.....and I do not doubt that the sheep who cannot think for themselves that follow PETA will help them do away with many many animal activities in the next 50 years.....
> 
> SAD SAD SAD
> 
> Lee


Unfortunately, your opinion is very controversial, and the opposing opinions are too. It's like the war in the Middle East, I don't think it will EVER be solved, as much as I would hope. There will always be opposing views and arguments on treatment/ownership of animals, animals used for entertainment purposes etc...

That being said, I also have little experience with handling terriers so would not have known that, this is how they are handled. Maybe it is like picking a puppy up by the scruff of the neck. That doesn't harm them, it's natural, but maybe to ignorant people it "looks bad".


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> The AR people and PETA and HSUS are out of control.....when will the general public learn that these groups are really anti animal ownership......and anti enjoyment of animals....their politics and propaganda is encroaching into every facet of animal human interaction both here and in Europe....Ringling Bros is retiring their elephants.....due to PETA lobbying......and I ***Have been behind the scenes*** quite a few times at circus'.....just like any where, the majority of people handling and training animals love their animals and do NOT mistreat them.....dog shows are already under scrutiny from AR activists.....and I do not doubt that the sheep who cannot think for themselves that follow PETA will help them do away with many many animal activities in the next 50 years.....
> 
> SAD SAD SAD
> 
> Lee


A terrier and an elephant are 2 very separate things.... thinking highly intelligent, sentient creatures can be kept in settings like circuses vs picking up a dog by its tail.... it has nothing to do with how they're treated and everything to do with the inability to provide them a proper living environment, but neither here nor there for this question.

You don't have to be a PETA associated fanatic to believe some species do NOT belong in captive entertainment settings. Believe it or not even highly respected and educated scientists and experts believe those settings are wrong


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Anubis_Star said:


> A terrier and an elephant are 2 very separate things.... thinking highly intelligent, sentient creatures can be kept in settings like circuses vs picking up a dog by its tail.... it has nothing to do with how they're treated and everything to do with the inability to provide them a proper living environment, but neither here nor there for this question.
> 
> You don't have to be a PETA associated fanatic to believe some species do NOT belong in captive entertainment settings. Believe it or not even highly respected and educated scientists and experts believe those settings are wrong



Totally agree. Keeping elephants in circuses and zoos actually hurts my heart. They are sentient animals in forced captivity.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zx5go said:


> ...it's probably why your tail fell off. :wild:



Or ..probably why I developed a tail.....

SuperG


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Okay I know literally zero about terriers or terrier-ing so please educate me. Why would a dog need to tug hard to get its tail out of a hole that its whole body just went through? Am I picturing it wrong in my head?


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## Squeetie (Jan 19, 2012)

Emoore said:


> Okay I know literally zero about terriers or terrier-ing so please educate me. Why would a dog need to tug hard to get its tail out of a hole that its whole body just went through? Am I picturing it wrong in my head?


From my understanding, the handler grabs the tail of the dog to pull it out of a hole backwards after the dog chases whatever vermin into said hole.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Mostly the dog doesn't want to come out of the hole, it wants to kill the cridder in the hole, sometimes the cridder may be more of a match for the dog.so they use the tail to get the dog out. I know they will send a smaller terrier into the hole to flush out the cridder and have a larger dog on the exit hole to disbatch the cridder, if the smaller dog comes out that side the owner might need to get the smaller dog. That's another way the tail comes in handy. From my understanding farmers may call terrier folks to bring in dogs to clear fields of ground hogs. Cattle or horses can break legs in holes and of course that's a loss for the farmer. This is what terriers were bred for to keep vermin in check.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

OooooOOOOoooh! I gotcha now.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Anubis_Star said:


> A terrier and an elephant are 2 very separate things.... thinking highly intelligent, sentient creatures can be kept in settings like circuses vs picking up a dog by its tail.... it has nothing to do with how they're treated and everything to do with the inability to provide them a proper living environment, but neither here nor there for this question.
> 
> You don't have to be a PETA associated fanatic to believe some species do NOT belong in captive entertainment settings. Believe it or not even highly respected and educated scientists and experts believe those settings are wrong


Well said ... I agree 100% with what you said.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Squeetie said:


> From my understanding, the handler grabs the tail of the dog to pull it out of a hole backwards after the dog chases whatever vermin into said hole.


If a tail is so convenient to grab onto, then why in the world do they dock them with most terriers? All these so called historic reasons don't always seem to add up.

On another note I think what is abusive during shows, is walking these dogs in a choke hold on a sharp little chain. resulting in the dogs often gagging and swallowing during its parading and all in the name of love of the "sport". Sorry, had to rant about it.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Thanks Anubis star I agree too.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

The smaller terriers tails are not docked, the small ones are going in the hole not the lg terriers. Big dog.. small hole... whole diffarent story.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

lol British people are so ridiculously weak willed and sissified these days, this really shouldn't come as a surprise.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

EMH said:


> lol British people are so ridiculously weak willed and sissified these days, this really shouldn't come as a surprise.


Sme British people are great. I have family in England. I don't think they are sissified.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

There are so many folks who will shout "foul" with any animal for anything. Banning bits in horses mouths because its metal...is one that just cracks me up... 
Showing dogs is a very expensive sport and these dogs are treated with kid gloves. Lets face it, the dog is bathed and groomed, driven to a show in a motorhome or some type of vehicle, taken out and groomed again, walked to the ring, given goodies to look attentive, move around the ring at a trot and then go back and start over again the next day.......... Rough life..... Been there done that and most show dogs are royalty to their owners. They are not going to do something that would hurt them.
PETA and the other AR groups don't want anyone owning any living thing. It will never end as long as there are fanatics to keep things stirred up.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

EMH said:


> lol British people are so ridiculously weak willed and sissified these days, this really shouldn't come as a surprise.


Since this is a board with people from all over, not just the US or Canada or N. America; I think that we should place negative statements about nationalities right up there with negative statements of various races or religions, politics, and controversial topics like abortion -- on the LEAVE-IT list. I don't think there is any room here for that kind of stuff.

PS. That includes crappy statements about the US too.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

EMH said:


> lol British people are so ridiculously weak willed and sissified these days, this really shouldn't come as a surprise.


I grew up in the UK, trained with their army on multiple occasions, they are not weak, quit making generalisations.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

The British have been a loyal ally of the US since at least since WWII. Their brave military personnel have died in Afghanistan, also. The bombing of London during WWII was not for the faint of heart.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Rethinking The Word “Abuse”… | Canine Chronicle

Really enjoyed this article.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Is it okay to say I'd rather have Italian, Chinese or Mexican food instead of British food?

SuperG


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Is it okay to say I'd rather have Italian, Chinese or Mexican food instead of British food?
> 
> SuperG


No waay!! When I was in England, I got to have all kinds of yummy stuff.

Tea and chocolate digestives, fish and chips, going to the pubs. No no! I love it

When I went to Mexico all I got was a really bad stomach virus. Arghh


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> No waay!! When I was in England, I got to have all kinds of yummy stuff.
> 
> Tea and chocolate digestives, fish and chips, going to the pubs. No no! I love it
> 
> When I went to Mexico all I got was a really bad stomach virus. Arghh


To each their own...taste buds rule. If someone likes black pudding, stargazy pie and steak and kidney pie...well that's good enough for me....have at it. Just don't get it too close to me....


SuperG


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Thanks for the article Guardyan....Hope more people remember it before screaming foul.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

basedinberlin said:


> Well, I'll be the first to say that I didn't know this about terriers! So I guess this makes me an idiot by GermanShepherd forum standards!
> 
> I'm no expert on dog shows or anything like it, and seeing the dog handled like that this morning surprised me. It's probably naivety in large part, but I can understand how there's an outrage even if it isn't justified. It looks bad if you don't know the facts.
> 
> ...



The idiots are the ones who immediately go all up in arms over something, attacking an innocent person, intending to do them harm, while knowing nothing. 

Those are the idiots: The ones who started the ridiculous petition.


The article below is a very good one, worth linking again:

Rethinking The Word “Abuse”… | Canine Chronicle


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