# Is this level of aggression considered normal?



## ejoypousson (Sep 17, 2020)

I adopted my first GSD from a good home about a month and a half ago. The previous owner's new work schedule didn't give him enough time for her anymore. She was (and is) well-loved and very well socialized. Her previous owner said she regularly went to doggy day care and went to the dog park 3-4 times a week. Although she's my first GSD, I spent several months before COVID as a dog trainer and worked with many large dogs and a number of GSDs. However, we didn't let the dogs interact much, so I'm still learning about what is considered typical GSD behavior when they're around other dogs.

Two days after we adopted her, she was attacked by two loose pitbulls on our street. Once she was mostly healed, I introduced her to two friendly dogs owned by my ex-colleagues/dog trainers. She did really well, so I started bringing her to the dog park. She seems completely fine with 90% of the dogs she meets. When she greeted a pitbull at the park, things were okay for a few seconds, but then she got really snarly and snappy so I brought her away. She also refused to take her eyes off another pitbull at a distance and was freaking out being protective when my husband started walking in its direction while I stayed behind with her on a leash, both behaviors I never see her do with other breeds. I don't plan to let her off leash around pitbulls in the park, or even enter the dog park if I notice pitbulls, at least for now. I mention all the above as background for my question about how she interacts with some non-pitbull dogs.

Behaviors I've noticed:

1. She got vocal with a male weimaraner puppy that kept getting in her face and being really pushy. I happened to be looking the other way while leading her away at that exact moment, so I didn't notice if she bared her teeth or snapped. But when the puppy came near again later, but not too close, she was neutral towards it. The puppy's owners seemed pissed about "why would they bring their dog to the dog park", but to me it just seemed like she was correcting the puppy for being pushy?

2. She bared her teeth at a female dog around her size (she's 2ft at the shoulder) that was repeatedly putting its nose near her face, both when my dog was standing/drinking and when she was lying down. This happened maybe 3-4 times, but the dog wouldn't stop so my dog did a silent, slow swing towards its muzzle with her mouth open/teeth bared, but didn't make contact. Again, I feel like she was just communicating that she wanted space and escalated when the other dog wouldn't stop.

3. She chased a medium sized female dog that went to sniff at her frisbee all the way back to its owner (like 100 ft). The second time the dog approached her frisbee, it was already near her owner, so my dog chased it around and under the picnic table. She wasn't vocalizing or baring her teeth at any point, but I called her away before she actually 'caught' the dog, so I don't know what she would have done. 

4. She bared her teeth and did a silent muzzle swing towards another female GSD while drinking from the park's water bowl, but it ended there when the other GSD backed off.

In general, I've noticed she's much more tolerant of male dogs. She was totally fine with drinking from the same water bowl as a male GSD in a previous visit, and she displays submissive/friendly behavior with male dogs. She didn't care at all when a male dog got her ball before she did. I know same-sex aggression is a thing with GSDs, so this doesn't surprise me. I'm wondering what people with more experience with GSDs think of the incidents I described above. Is this just her establishing and enforcing her boundaries? Should I correct any of these behaviors, and if I don't, is she likely to become more aggressive in the future? 

Her previous owner said he'd only ever seen aggression from her when a dog tried to mount her. I don't doubt he was being sincere, but I wonder whether he would have counted what I described above as 'aggression' or not. Unfortunately, I don't have a baseline understanding of her behavior before the attack, since she was attacked so soon after I began ownership.


----------



## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

What were the circumstances of the pitbull attack?

I wouldn't call the behavior that you described, aggression. From the info given, she sounds like a somewhat nervous, reactive dog.

If dog park sessions were a regular part of her previous life, she has likely _decided for herself_ how best to interact with other dogs. You can't control other loose dogs and you can't typically stay on top of your own dog's behavior in that setting. She doesn't know how you _want_ her to act, so this may be her default. It could be that the previous owner allowed the behavior (explicitly or by inaction/inattentiveness) at dog parks.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

GSDs as a general rule don't do well at dog parks much past puppyhood.They become very attached to their human and animal family at home and have no desire or need to interact with others outside of their "pack".She's trying to express to you the only way she can that she's uncomfortable with being put in the position of interacting with lots of different strangers.Right now she's giving out warnings.When the warnings and signals are ignored she may very well begin making emphatic statements with her teeth.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

A single serious attack by another dog can make a dog dog-aggressive for life. And I am not at all surprised she doesn't much care for pitbulls after that attack! A dog is quite capable of identifying another breed by their sight, appearance and smell and she's obviously no longer comfortable with that breed.

Dog parks are NOT a good place for German shepherds. They are not the sort of dog that gets along with every other dog it meets. I VERY strongly suggest you stop going to the dog park, and just confine play sessions to dogs you know and are comfortable with.

You are still getting to know each other, and the LAST thing you need is for her to get into another fight, especially if she gets injured again.


----------



## ejoypousson (Sep 17, 2020)

chuckd said:


> What were the circumstances of the pitbull attack?


My husband was walking her around our neighborhood a couple blocks away, and there were kids playing in their front yard who had left their gate open. The two pitbulls ran out and the male pitbull tried to mount her. When she shook him off he chomped into her and at the same moment the female pitbull reached them and immediately attacked. They refused to let go and my husband and one of the people living there had to really struggle to get them off, at which point my husband just ran with her back to our house.


----------



## ejoypousson (Sep 17, 2020)

Thanks for the insights. I wanted to bring her to dog parks because I was concerned about her having no exposure to other dogs after the attack (other than the annoying loose ones on our street that make her nervous), but I guess this isn't the best way to do things. I've been keeping her on leash until she has greeted every dog at the park, but the fact that dogs can come directly up to her and I don't know how the dog is going to act has worried me. I'm working on strengthening her recall, but I've also been bringing her to dog parks because I want an enclosed area for her to stretch her legs until she's better at recall.

Would it still be inadvisable if I were to bring her in the early morning when there are very few people and dogs, just to let her run around if she is okay with whatever dog is there (keeping her on leash/exiting if she's not)? I really don't think she is reactive to dogs in general, because she is so friendly and sweet and submissive with some dogs (usually males) even if she's never met them before, and most of the times I've gone she's played nicely with dogs she's okay with without any incident. I understand that the problem is I don't know when she's going to be like this and when she's going to be intolerant of other dogs. So I'm wondering if going to the dog park when there is likely to only be one or two other dogs, and deciding based on her reaction to them whether to let her play or to leave, would still be inadvisable.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ehhh...you're still taking a risk. Having been to dog parks in the past, I can tell you there are a LOT of idiots out there who own badly behaved dogs, and you never know when one of them is going to turn up!

Can you set up regular meeting with your friend's dogs instead, the ones she got along so well with?

Another alternative is to get a 30 ft. horse's lunge line, and let her chase a ball on that until her recall is really good. Or play flirt with her - get a lunge whip and tie a rag to it.

There was one time I was at the local dog park, and there was a 120 lb. male mastiff that was just at the teenage stage where he wanted to throw his weigh around and challenge other male dogs. The owner was aware of it, and so was I. We kept our distance from each other, and things were fine.

Then, as she decided to leave, her dog turned around and challenged my male GSD. Next thing I knew, my dog was on the ground underneath this HUGE mastiff. I yelled for help, and the owner came running. I don't know how we managed to get the two of them apart, just know she suffered a nasty bite to her calf. By some miracle, neither of our dogs was hurt.

Just wanted to show you how fast something can go wrong. If she hadn't been an experienced dog owner, this could have turned out very badly for my dog!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Your dog is simply not a candidate for a dog park and strange dogs. She doesn't need to like every other dog she sees. She just needs to respect their right to live. Try to find another place for her to run if possible for now.


----------



## ejoypousson (Sep 17, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Ehhh...you're still taking a risk. Having been to dog parks in the past, I can tell you there are a LOT of idiots out there who own badly behaved dogs, and you never know when one of them is going to turn up!
> 
> Can you set up regular meeting with your friend's dogs instead, the ones she got along so well with?


I have been wanting to, but their work schedule is so crazy that it's hard for them! I will keep trying to find time that works, though. I know some other people who have dogs that I could introduce her to, so I'll be setting up something to see how she likes them.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

P.S. - ejoy, I went back and added a couple of things to my post! (Nasty habit of mine...lol!)


----------



## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

Oh wow, that's horrible! Thanks for filling in the details.

It's certainly easy to see how the behavior would be brought on by that single event, as SunSil mentioned.

She may be acting in defensive aggression, which is likely fear-based, due to the attack. Perhaps from her perspective, the male was doing "what males do" (initiated by mounting) and that may have been "ok whatever" to your dog, but the female running in to join the attack may have brought out the female-female aggression that you've been seeing since.

*edit- because I type slow.
As was suggested, it's best, esp. now, that you pick and choose the dogs that she interacts and socializes with. Set up for success, right? As you're realizing, socializing isn't about being able to happily greet every dog or person. It's about being confident enough to remain neutral to every dog and person.


----------



## ejoypousson (Sep 17, 2020)

Thanks again for all the advice. Besides having playdates with dogs she knows and is okay with, are there any specific things/approaches to training I could do to help her? Ideally, I'd want to help her work through her fear/defensive aggression as much as she's able to.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I have only been to a dog park 3X. All 3 times saw idiot dogs but more idiot owners.
SKIP THE DOG PARK, they are 90% of the time awful experiences.....and many of the worst dogs are poorly trained and dominant GSD


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

I have been to the dog park about 100 times. The vast majority of dogs are fine and get along and it's a beautiful thing. Unfortunately, some dogs don't and many owners are inattentive or bring dogs who shouldn't be there. And also, dogs are dogs. They have teeth and they sometimes bite each other--and people.

Personally, I've witnessed one dog who had to go to the vet and one owner who had to go to the doctor. Along with a few close calls. 

Jupiter was attacked viciously by a weimeraner (sp), pestered by a pitbull that followed him relentlessly and kept jabbing him in the ribs with a ball it always carried, but otherwise was mostly left alone. Unfortunately, he started being mean to puppies around 8 months, so I decided to stop going. 

Now I take him to a school on the weekends where he can chase balls, take him for walks, and sometimes go on hikes or the park--occasionally the German shepherd club for obedience work. He doesn't seem to have any need for social interaction with dogs.


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

If you aren't taking her to dog parks, then she doesn't have to love every other dog, she just needs to be neutral in public. I guess I don't see the point in dog parks. I didn't buy a dog so it could play with other dogs. I got it to interact with me.


----------



## Shefali (Aug 12, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> GSDs as a general rule don't do well at dog parks much past puppyhood.They become very attached to their human and animal family at home and have no desire or need to interact with others outside of their "pack".She's trying to express to you the only way she can that she's uncomfortable with being put in the position of interacting with lots of different strangers.Right now she's giving out warnings.When the warnings and signals are ignored she may very well begin making emphatic statements with her teeth.


I was wondering about this. I have a 10 month old GSD who lived with his 5 brothers until he was 6 months old. I take him to the dog park regularly and he loves it but as he's been getting older I've been focusing more on doing long hikes together and going to the dog park less often. I'll keep an eye on it and maybe stop taking him altogether at some point. Right now he is still super playful. He's assertive with other dogs but not aggressive.


----------



## Shefali (Aug 12, 2020)

ejoypousson said:


> Thanks for the insights. I wanted to bring her to dog parks because I was concerned about her having no exposure to other dogs after the attack (other than the annoying loose ones on our street that make her nervous), but I guess this isn't the best way to do things. I've been keeping her on leash until she has greeted every dog at the park, but the fact that dogs can come directly up to her and I don't know how the dog is going to act has worried me. I'm working on strengthening her recall, but I've also been bringing her to dog parks because I want an enclosed area for her to stretch her legs until she's better at recall.
> 
> Would it still be inadvisable if I were to bring her in the early morning when there are very few people and dogs, just to let her run around if she is okay with whatever dog is there (keeping her on leash/exiting if she's not)? I really don't think she is reactive to dogs in general, because she is so friendly and sweet and submissive with some dogs (usually males) even if she's never met them before, and most of the times I've gone she's played nicely with dogs she's okay with without any incident. I understand that the problem is I don't know when she's going to be like this and when she's going to be intolerant of other dogs. So I'm wondering if going to the dog park when there is likely to only be one or two other dogs, and deciding based on her reaction to them whether to let her play or to leave, would still be inadvisable.


I take my dog to dog parks and he loves it and has a great time BUT he was raised with 5 brothers until he was 6 months old and he's never been subject to the type of pitbull attack your baby had to deal with. Also, I scoped out the dog parks in my area carefully - two of them are great. The owners typically keep an eye on their dogs and the small dogs stay out of the large dog area, etc. One of the dog parks was awful. The owners spend their time socializing with each other instead of keeping a close eye on the dogs. So I never take him there. Even at the good parks, I only go during certain times and I avoid certain dogs. 

As a GSD owner, I think we have to be more vigilant than, say, the owner of a golden. 

Does your dog like interacting with other dogs? If so, instead of dog parks, you can arrange doggy play dates or check out doggy day care. A good day care will have trained people who will match up dogs that can play well together. (Check out the reviews carefully, ask questions, etc.)

But it's not essential for your dog to like other dogs. It's only essential that she not be aggressive. She can totally ignore other dogs and that's OK. Doggy obedience might be a good thing for you both to do since that helps the dog learn to pay attention to you and ignore the other dogs. 

I also take my dog hiking on off-leash trails. It's great for him since he gets to climb hills and really run without me slowing him down. We do encounter other dogs but I've found that owners who are hiking with their dogs are generally aware of their dogs and paying attention. The rare times there is a problem, since it's just one other dog, and the owner is right there, it's easy to handle it.


----------



## ejoypousson (Sep 17, 2020)

I think my email started sending notifications to spam, didn't see these replies! Thanks for all the input everyone. I've gotten a 50ft line and can lengthen it to 80ft by attaching extra leashes, so I've been bringing her to the park nearby during quiet hours to run around. My ex co worker is agreeable to letting our dogs go on walk dates on leash and play if they want to, it's just a matter of scheduling.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't see anything wrong with your dog's behavior at the dog park. Herders don't like dogs pushing into their faces and it is considered bad behavior on the other dog's part and should be corrected by the owners.

Most of my dogs love going to the dog park and interacting with the other dogs and having fun. I find the three biggest sources of trouble in dog parks stem from food, toys, and dog fighting breeds. Avoid them.

A lot of people take their dogs for hikes before going to dog parks decreasing the risk of over arousal and dog scuffles.

Dogs can remember breed or color of dogs that have attacked them. You could work on desensitization if it bothers you that much but I don't think in your situation that would be in your dog's better interests.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Your dog's behavior at the dog park was similar to mine, and I don't consider him aggressive.
We went a few times in the first months after we adopted him...

A dog came up and barked right in his face. He responded by growling.
Another male dog tried to hump him. He responded by turning around and growling at the dog.
A small dog followed him around licking at this private parts...my dog tolerated it for a few minutes, but then growled at him.
Also, I counted once that in the 20 minutes we were there, he came back to visit me 11 times! Most other dogs did not come back to visit their owners at all! This made me realize that he just doesn't feel that comfortable in this atmosphere of strange dogs coming and going and running around.

He's just not a jolly easygoing 'dog park' kind of guy...he does happily walk with other dogs, he likes being around other familiar dogs (like our neighbors' dogs), and he likes to say a brief friendly _Hi_ if doggy manners are calm and polite.

After an attack like that, I feel like managed, positive interactions are more important than actually being in a dog park (where there could actually be additional scary negative interactions for your dog!)

My dog has been attacked several times and he didn't become dog-aggressive. He did have "breed profiling" of golden retrievers for a while (a friends' goldie suddenly snarled and grabbed him by the throat!) but it faded after a few months. He's fine with golden retrievers now.

_(So much for breed stereotypes! Nastiest attack ever was from golden retriever! We once met a pitbull and she licked and kissed him on the side of his face, he really liked her.)_


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dogs are purpose bred to exhibit specific behavioral traits. It is what gives us dog breeds. It is hard wired genetics, not a stereotype.


----------

