# Black puppy



## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Are black GSD rare or worth less $? We found a sweet black GSD 9 wks so we were just wondering. Making sure we don't over pay for him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

No black GSD's are not rare and they do not cost less.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

If you are going through a reputable breeder then should be paying $1200+ for a pup.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> No black GSD's are not rare and they do not cost less.


Agreed.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

No, but they are stunning! At least mine is.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Okay thanks. We are going through a breeder this is her 17 litter. She has all akc papers and hips checked with great marks. See she is only asking $600.00


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I think it varies by region. It was harder to find a black in my area. They should cost the same as the other color patterns though. Is someone saying they are rare and trying to charge you more? If that is the case then maybe you should go somewhere else. It is the bloodline that matters not the color.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

RED flag! RED flag! 

Does this breeder have a website? Can you post it?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-puppy/150202-those-you-want-cheap-puppy.html


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

Holy sh.. are all GSD puppies so expensive?  Or only the pure bread lines?
I believe our Beagle was 900 gulden at the time, which is about 450 euros/dollar. And yes that was from a well known reputable breeder.

I just never looked at puppy prices of a GSD before :crazy:


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Both mom and dad have OFA good and excellent hips.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Blazings said:


> Holy sh.. are all GSD puppies so expensive?  Or only the pure bread lines?
> I believe our Beagle was 900 gulden at the time, which is about 450 euros/dollar. And yes that was from a well known reputable breeder.
> 
> I just never looked at puppy prices of a GSD before :crazy:


 
Yes, just for the puppy they usually start out at 1,000 and up from a reputable breeder.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

We paid $1500 for Elsa and my mother-law paid $800 and both dogs are healthy and fantastic.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You can't tell a bad breeder by the price. Many BYB's are now charging over $1000 for a puppy. Do the parents have minimum health tests done? Hips? Elbows? Do they have hte OFA results? Have they been trialed? Show? Obedience? SchH? Any sport? Have the parents been bred together before? What temperaments have they produced? Health problems? Start with those questions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Blazings said:


> Holy sh.. are all GSD puppies so expensive?  Or only the pure bread lines?


Only if they are Wonderbread! :laugh:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> You can't tell a bad breeder by the price. Many BYB's are now charging over $1000 for a puppy. Do the parents have minimum health tests done? Hips? Elbows? Do they have hte OFA results? Have they been trialed? Show? Obedience? SchH? Any sport? Have the parents been bred together before? What temperaments have they produced? Health problems? Start with those questions.


Yes, you are correct about the price, but I would definitly second guess the breeder based on the price. 

Very good post btw.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> You can't tell a bad breeder by the price. Many BYB's are now charging over $1000 for a puppy. Do the parents have minimum health tests done? Hips? Elbows? Do they have hte OFA results? Have they been trialed? Show? Obedience? SchH? Any sport? Have the parents been bred together before? What temperaments have they produced? Health problems? Start with those questions.


You are absolutely correct. It is so hard to tell a BYB from reputable based on the price alone. 


LoveMyDogs-the above questions are definately the ones you need to ask. I will tell you from personal experience make sure you meet the parents of the puppies. Ask about temperment? We didn't cause we didn't know any better and ended up with an aggressive nightmare(Victor). Please be careful.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Blazings said:


> Holy sh.. are all GSD puppies so expensive?  Or only the pure bread lines?
> I believe our Beagle was 900 gulden at the time, which is about 450 euros/dollar. And yes that was from a well known reputable breeder.
> 
> I just never looked at puppy prices of a GSD before :crazy:


Blazings, it's an American thing. Americans charge more for their puppies than people in Europe. 

I haven't "shopped" for a German Shepherd puppy, but I brought home a Hollandse Herder last year from Assen, Nederland. The puppy (and all NHSB HH in Nederland) cost me €500. In the USA an ugly HH costs $1,500! 

My friend was interested in a Portuguese Podengo. In the USA the breeder wants $2,650. Again, in Portugal the puppy costs €600. I asked somebody who lives in Portugal who breeds dogs and he even said that the American prices are "*ridiculous*!"

Groetjes


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

What if the parents have been breed together before?


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## Shrap (Mar 4, 2011)

What if they have or haven't been? Can't understand you lol.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If they have been bred together before then the people breeding should have an idea of what temperaments and health the dogs throw. If they haven't been bred together before then you'll have to find out about each dog separately, which isn't a bad idea to start with anyways.


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

BlackPuppy said:


> Blazings, it's an American thing. Americans charge more for their puppies than people in Europe.
> 
> I haven't "shopped" for a German Shepherd puppy, but I brought home a Hollandse Herder last year from Assen, Nederland. The puppy (and all NHSB HH in Nederland) cost me €500. In the USA an ugly HH costs $1,500!
> 
> ...


Didn't know there were any other Dutchies on this forum :wild:
That's nice to hear since I'm currently a poor student and don't want to wait 20 years to get a dog 
Thanks for the info! I'll stop being off-topic now


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I think it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to state that if someone isn't paying 1200 for a GSD puppy it's probably a red flag or backyrd breeder.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I think it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to state that if someone isn't paying 1200 for a GSD puppy it's probably a red flag or backyrd breeder.


Seconded.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

LoveMyDogs said:


> What if the parents have been breed together before?


Repeat breedings CAN be a red flag... because BYBs will often have a few males and a few females (or just one male and one female) that they constantly breed, over and over.

HOWEVER, if a good breeder gets an exceptional litter out of a breeding, they would definitely consider a repeat breeding. So... just like price, it can be a red flag but isn't necessarily one.

A price of $600 would definitely have me asking further questions, however.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and thirded...


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ok the price is all relative to what the buyer told the breeder they are looking for.

Of course it can vary from region, etc. Also what did the buyer tell the buyer what they wanted in a pup? If they wanted a top sport level dog to compete then yes $600 is kinda cheap but hey they may feel generous and doing it at that price b/c they got a good feel from the buyer. (just playing devil's advocate)

Second, if the buyer said they wanted a GSD as a pet then I think $600 is more than reasonable.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Unless the puppy has a medical condition

or the buyer and the breeder have a deal on the price

or they are from another country

or the puppy is older

I would definitly question why the puppy is only $600.

In my local newspaper byb pups are usually between $300-$800. 

A $600 puppy would make me question why it is so cheap.

JMO


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

In America price is equated to quality and because I expect there are higher costs to getting dogs titled in the United States and therefor higher puppy prices. But its true, even if it is a very good breeding you have to wonder why the breeder wouldn't be asking for the "going rate." Is 1200 a little ridiculous in my mind? Yes, but that's what the market has been set at. Sadly its part of the reason why people go to byb, they want a dog and can't afford the 1200 start up cost (its actually much more than that but being able to save $600 goes a long way).


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

We went to visit the puppy yesterday and we did not buy this little guy. What we found out is she has been doing this for 14 yrs and has a great little byb busniess. They live on 100 acres and when you pull on the estate they have a house sign over head that says oakcreek breeding. She had all the paperwork on Mom and Dad OFA papers and pedigree lines, AKC and Vet shots. Dad was not there she works with a breeder. 

We did not buy him because we are a little scared about the moms age. She was 8yrs old. I thought that was a little old to be having puppies. Mom was great and the Aunt was there as well so 3 generations she will have now. What I found is a family that is in love with GSD they are not in it for the money but love to breed and meet families. She works in a school and was thrilled to have us in her home. 

The grandparents have titles but she did not have time with her female.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So, she OFA's her dogs and she titles them? I"m not sure she is a BYB. The dad was from a different breeder?

I don't think the mother being 8 years old would have any bearing on the puppies health. You could ask a breeder on here at what age do they stop breeding their females. That does seem to be a retirement age to me but maybe there were other circumstances.

Does the breeder have a website?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> So, she OFA's her dogs and she titles them? I"m not sure she is a BYB. The dad was from a different breeder?
> 
> I don't think the mother being 8 years old would have any bearing on the puppies health. You could ask a breeder on here at what age do they stop breeding their females. That does seem to be a retirement age to me but maybe there were other circumstances.
> 
> Does the breeder have a website?





LoveMyDogs said:


> We went to visit the puppy yesterday and we did not buy this little guy. What we found out is she has been doing this for 14 yrs and has a great little byb busniess. They live on 100 acres and when you pull on the estate they have a house sign over head that says oakcreek breeding. She had all the paperwork on Mom and Dad OFA papers and pedigree lines, AKC and Vet shots. Dad was not there she works with a breeder.
> 
> We did not buy him because we are a little scared about the moms age. She was 8yrs old. I thought that was a little old to be having puppies. Mom was great and the Aunt was there as well so 3 generations she will have now. What I found is a family that is in love with GSD they are not in it for the money but love to breed and meet families. She works in a school and was thrilled to have us in her home.
> 
> *The grandparents have titles but she did not have time with her female.*


It sounds like the mom is not titled.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

How is $1,200 for a well bred, well socialized , totally guaranteed pup ridiculous?

It is the price , if not less, than I have paid for a good import.

Advertising is expensive . BYB don't advertise or need to be selective in who they sell a dog to. Got bucks, you're in luck , we got a dog.

The price reflects money invested in education, reading material, attending seminars, club fees. BYB don't invest in self improvement or improvement.

The price reflects being able to critically evaluate an animal and remove them from a breeding program. As an example lets say you have a dog that produced a dissapointing litter , from the view point of some standards though, maybe the pups were totally lacking in drive. Probably not the best example, use hips, use hernias , use anything that would cause you to think better and rehome the dog. There is no pressure to , oh, use the dog one more time, or time after time to squeeze out a return on what you spent . A BYB would keep on going .

The money represents the costs incurred for health testing, OFA's , etc.
BYB don't do this. 

The money represents , again , a dog that may be eliminated due to failure to meet OFA standards. BYB don't do this.

The money represents the active seeking out and purchasing of the "great" dog that you have to have for the breeding program. BYB don't improve and don't have a plan . 

The money represents kennel repairs. 

The money represents an honest return for the time and effort and sacrifices that a good breeder contributes to making sure that you get a good , healthy, sane dog.
We have some excellent breeders on this forum, including Lisa , Lee, Cliff, Chris, Anne , Blackthorn etc. If I left you out it was not intentional. Step up and put yourself on this list. My colleagues are professional in their outlook.

The money represents guarantees . BYB don't offer guarantees or guarantees worth the paper that they are written on . Most european breeders do not offer guarantees. The thinking is that they have done the best that they can do to prevent a health/orthopedic problem by x raying, certifying, working with the ZW statistics, feeding correctly etc. Beyond that is the capriciousness of nature , which they can not control and so do not guarantee "we all take a chance". North America is different in this expectation.

If you can not afford a dog NOW, then save your money and get what you want and need. People will think nothing to try to nickle and dime you citing hard times , and then you see them loading up some huge big screen tv into the back of their van at the box store. 

When you look at it $1,200 is too little, not too much.

If you think you are getting a bargain at the BYB good luck to you and false economy. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP , I have this feeling that you may have jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.
You said "What I found is a family that is in love with the GSD they are not in it for the money but love to breed and meet families"

Huh.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Thats what she said. She loves to meet the families that will be buying her puppies. She also said we could call her day or night. She belives that a breeder should always work with her buyers. I felt she was doing a great job. We found her in the newspaper so it was not a sign on the road.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think anyone was saying $1200 for a puppy was ridiculous. They were saying that stating any puppy that didn't cost at least that much comes from a backyard breeder.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes Laren...I know the mom is not titled. But all the other dogs were along with being OFA'd, which to me means that perhaps a little more investigation should be done before claiming these are BYB. I still think they probably are but they may not be.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax here is the quote from martemchik

"Is 1,200 a little ridiculous in my mind? Yes, but that is what the market has been set at. Sadly it is the reason why people go to a byb they want a dog and can't afford the 1,200 start up"

Carmen


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> I don't think anyone was saying $1200 for a puppy was ridiculous. They were saying that stating any puppy that didn't cost at least that much comes from a backyard breeder.


 exactly


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

doing a great job being all nice and friendly but what does that have to do with the dogs. How does she know a good GSD . How does she know pedigrees , what belongs together and what does not. 
From the information you gave I see another amateur , hobbyist contributing to overpopulation.

Her dogs might be the biggest spooks -- did you ask the whys and wherefors of the breeding.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ohhh...missed that one, Carmen. I was thinking of Rerun's comment, and my comment. Sorry about that.

Personally, if a person can't afford to save up the $1200 then they are going to be in big trouble if hit by a big vet bill or a dog with a chronic condition like EPI.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

She has the pedigree papers for the dad and mom.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Having pedigree papers doesn't mean much. As long as the dogs are purebred they can be registered with the AKC. But that doesn't mean they are breeding sound, healthy dogs. Trialing them is a way to judge whether they dogs are sound. Do they ahve any working dogs (SAR, Police). That's another way to tell if the dogs are sound.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

I will ask her. I know that she does not do anything herself but is looking into it. I know the fathers parents have titles but thats all I know. My husband is calling her today to get some final answers.

The mom was growling at the puppies when they came near her bone. But she also loved them at one point when we were there. Not sure if that shows the moms temperment. She was very nice to us and our kids, The females were not in kennels they were walking around and just hanging out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh boy. 

papers -- big deal . all they have is biological units , male and female , necessary to procreate.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

So what I see here is that you should not breed unless you can charge $1200 and you are working the dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

LoveMyDogs said:


> So what I see here is that you should not breed unless you can charge $1200 and you are working the dog.


Both dogs should be OFA'd.

Both dogs should have titles.

Both dogs should have good bloodlines.

Both dogs should have good temperment.

Both dogs should be health tested.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Both dogs should be OFA'd.
> 
> Both dogs should have titles.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Or, IMO, you end up with a higher chance for a mess, like me and JustmeLeslie.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NO . What you should see here is that you should NOT breed unless you really knew the breed .

there have been so many discussions saying this very thing -- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

I definitely think that reputable breeders will give you the chance that you will get your dream dog. Many people do have horror stories about their dogs from a BYB. I however am one that had a dream and not a nightmare with mine. I paid $250 for Amadeus, I was 15 and just knew I wanted a German Shepherd. He was an absolutely amazing dog, great temperament, good hips, etc. Did I get lucky? Yes. Would I have exchanged him for a puppy from titled parents? No. Am I going through a reputable breeder who works, titles, and certifies her dogs this time? Yes. The experience I had with Amadeus was amazing, but I know that if I want to have another great experience I am much safer going through a reputable breeder than just another BYB.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

What do you think? Here is the fathers name Nrogue Vom Haus Kuhn and the mothers name Circle Oaks Chessa. 

More info 
*Litter Information*

Sire: Nrogue Vom Haus Kuhn (DN07989802)
OFA / OFEL: OFA50E OFEL50 
Click to Purchase Pedigree 
Dam: Circle Oaks Chessa (DN02465109)
OFA / OFEL: OFA66F OFEL66 
Click to Purchase Pedigree 


*Additional Information Provided by the Breeder*

Beautiful, healthy black males. Great temperament is essential. We spend many hours interacting with our puppies and they are handled by many different people. These puppies are very responsive and ready to be a wonderful addition to your home.

Breeder's Profile: *removed by mod* 
1. *YES *I provide AKC individual dog registration applications to the puppy buyer. 
2. *NO *I am a member of an AKC Parent Club . 
3. *NO *I am a member of an AKC specialty club. 
4. *NO *I am a member of an AKC licensed or AKC member all-breed club. 
5. *YES *The applicable health screens have been performed on the sire and dam as recommended by the Parent Club for this breed. (AKC recommends you ask about health issues as discussed on the web pages of the respective AKC Parent Club). Please make sure appropriate certification data, which is recorded by the AKC, is recorded for the sire and dam if indicating yes. 
6. *YES *I will provide a written bill of sale detailing responsibilities for the buyer and the seller. 
7. *YES *If the puppy buyer cannot keep a puppy purchased from me, I will take the puppy back under all conditions.
8. *YES *I will provide the puppy buyer with information about socialization, exercise, training, feeding, immunizations, proper veterinary care, and responsible dog ownership. 
9. *YES *I provide a health guarantee for the puppies I sell. 
10. *YES *I permanently identify all my breeding stock by microchip or tattoo. 
11. *NO *After my puppies are permanently identified, I enroll them in AKC Companion Animal Recovery. 
12. *---* My dogs compete in the following AKC events: 
13. *YES* I have been breeding for: 11-20 years


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I do not see her info?


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Sorry I pasted it 3 times. I was trying to find more info on the Dam and Sire but can't where can I find out more about them?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sire's Kennel
Haus Kuhn Kennels - Home


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

What do you think?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the kennel the sire came from is only 1/2 of the equation. The sire is not listed on the site, but must have come from their N litter. The fact that she says she will take the puppies back to rehome if needed is a good thing. Health tests are a good thing.

But WHY is she breeding? What is she trying to accomplish? She's breeding working line dogs to what? To produce what temperaments? Does she evaluate her puppies to try to ensure they are going into appropriate homes?


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

I have yet to come across a breeder site that looks somewhat decent 
Really.. who thinks of red thin letters with a black stroke.. impossible to read  And the picture are poorly cropped out etc.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm not finding anything on the Dam?


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

We are working with Elsa and will not breed her till she has her BH. We plan on Working with this little guy as well. If the parents were not aorked with at SCH. do you think they can still do well and title.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

She does not have a website. I have a copy of the moms pedigree. When we bought Elsa they really wanted us to breed her and work her. We planned on it and have been trying life does get crazy. This past year we have been really going at it. So can't people be selling great GSD with great lines just not working the dog. Won't the dog be able to train and do well even if a couple generations have not worked the sport. Just wondering because we plan on taking our next puppy to club and working with him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Seriously....a dog breeder shouldn't be judged on whether they are a decent graphic designer. Who cares what their font is on their website. That is so not important.

So, your last post has changed the whole picture in my opinion...

You are looking for a working line dog that you someday might want to breed? In that case, you need to do a whole lot more research. If I were you, I wouldn't even consider this puppy. You know nothing about the dam or sire as far as capability or temperament.

Yes, there are other venue's a dog can be shown and titled in. There is AKC obedience, tracking, agility and other organizations. There is conformation, which is primarily show line dogs (this puppy appears to be at least 1/2 working line).

I think you need to really look at some more breeders and ask more questions.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

*sigh*

So... is the reason you wanted to know if blacks are worth more or less money so you could make more money on future litters?


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

No! I just don't see a lot of Black GSD. Elsa's Sire was all black but other then that I have not seen many. Just did not know and really wanted to know.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where are you located at? If you give a general area, many people can recommend good breeders to you so you have a comparison.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

German Shepherd dogs for sale, German Shepherd pupppies for sale is where we bought Elsa. We are 1.5 hrs north of Madison Wisconsin.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you want another puppy, why don't you go back? Just curious as it looks like Elsa came from a good breeder. And I'm assuming that the contract you have for Elsa includes a limited registration until the health testing and trialing has been accomplished?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok...and I know nothing about lines....are these German Showlines? I see some conformation and Sieger winners on their site.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> If you want another puppy, why don't you go back? Just curious as it looks like Elsa came from a good breeder. And I'm assuming that the contract you have for Elsa includes a limited registration until the health testing and trialing has been accomplished?


No it is not a limited registration. Elsa's breeder does not have any litters coming up. Elsa is almost 3 and we want to get another puppy sooner then later so Elsa is okay with another dog.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ok...and I know nothing about lines....are these German Showlines? I see some conformation and Sieger winners on their site.


They have Working and Showlines both.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, before buying a puppy, I would really decide what your plans are for that puppy. Personally, I don't think age of your dog has a lot of bearing on whether she will accept a puppy in your house. I think it will depend mostly on her temperament.


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## LoveMyDogs (Mar 9, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Well, before buying a puppy, I would really decide what your plans are for that puppy. Personally, I don't think age of your dog has a lot of bearing on whether she will accept a puppy in your house. I think it will depend mostly on her temperament.


She is a little wild around other dogs but only in play. Are breeder said by about 2-3 yrs of age we should buy are second dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I cleaned up your post,and removed the breeders name, if anyone wishes to know it, they can PM the OP.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

carmspack said:


> oh boy.
> 
> papers -- big deal . all they have is biological units , male and female , necessary to procreate.
> 
> ...


Ha ! Well put ! I was simply going to say if the dog is not going to run for president who gives a flying turds bum about papers . There are stories about sir humpy von dumpty super dogs that had ****e hips and a bad temperament etc . If the parents look good and the owners are nice and you get a good vibe from the puppy ....I say get it . **** ....what's the name of this lady I want a $600 black GSD .


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

kidkhmer said:


> Ha ! Well put ! I was simply going to say if the dog is not going to run for president who gives a flying turds bum about papers . There are stories about sir humpy von dumpty super dogs that had ****e hips and a bad temperament etc . If the parents look good and the owners are nice and you get a good vibe from the puppy ....I say get it . **** ....what's the name of this lady I want a $600 black GSD .



For a breed that is prone to some pretty serious health problems, that's really not a wise mentality and it's pretty terrible advice.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Sounds to me like you're getting close to pulling the trigger, but if you haven't already here's my thoughts:

If you are even considering breeding down the road, I would ensure I get one that has solid lineage upline, especially if Elsa already is from such a line.

Even if I were not interested in breeding, which I am not, I, personally prefer to find a good breeder and pay the extra money. When all is said and done, the difference between paying $1500 compared to $600 is NOTHING, especially if you amortize the $900 over a few vet visits. In my area, an emergency run to the emergency clinic for even an upset stomach is $500.

With that said, there's really no way to know what you're going to end up with *NO MATTER WHAT YOU PAY OR FROM WHOM YOU BUY*, end of story. Even the best intentioned-breeder can put out an unstable dog, or one that is illness-prone. But, you would at least have a better shot if the breeder was a career-driven breeder in it for the long haul, but you still never know.

Guarantees? What are they worth? Peace of mind, to be sure. But, what happens if you get one, regardless of where, and it has health issues, and the breeder guarantees you a replacement (but you have to give up the one you got), or automatic new one (you get to keep the original one)? You're still set in for a big heartache/ expenses in the long run.

Real-lfe example differences between my neighbor and me:

He buys a $500 black shepherd from a casual breeder. Great temperament. I say I want one, too.

Instead, after being yelled at my sister (vet tech/therapy dog worker) for even considering a $500 (she says well-bred dogs are seen only 1 out of 20 in her clinic for issues), 6 weeks later I buy from a career-breeder of over 27 years, 40 dogs on the premises, titles over the years, not just OFA, but DNA screened as well (not that I cared), the works. Asking $1500. Not expecting to succeed, I wave $1000 cash, she takes it. 926th pup from this breeder! That's 2.85 pups per month over 27 years.

Fast-forward to today, about two years later. Neighbor's dog's ears don't stand, although they didn't take my advice, or accept my help to tape them, and she waddles, obviously with hip problems. She is now getting heavy, making it worse, but can't go like my dog so can't get enough exercise, so is getting heavier and worse; it's a vicious circle. No doubt she's going to have some issues, and they're going to have vet bills. Still has the same sweet temperament.

My dog's ears popped up at 10 weeks, and never looked back. Has no health issues, and looks great, and temperament much more like the original working stock. From my experience as a trainer, typically a handful for most people, but, I knew what to expect, set the proper behavior-shaping program in play, and it's worked out well for me.

All of a sudden that $500 more I spent doesn't mean a darned thing. All I know is they have to be careful where they take their dog and what activities to engage in, due to its physical issues. Nothing that needs to be addressed immediately, but at 2 years old to have to worry about that is a big life-changer for the family as well as the dog, ya think?

Me? We go everywhere. Lakes, swimming, 7 ft. frisbee leaps, rock-climbing, Home Depot, Disneyland, Body-surfing, bite-work, little kid face-licking, you name it. I consider myself darned lucky I got the deal I got because 2 years ago everyone was sweating the economy (we still are), and I think the only reason the breeder took the $1000 because it was cash waiving in her face, she knew I was a trainer, and she was getting a quick sale.

Even if I had paid $2500 - $3000, it would have been worth it. Not just because hip replacement is $2500 per hip, but because of the stress and aggravation I can see my friend knowingly coming up on. And, what about all the other issues that may or may not be associated with the hips, like the weight, or maybe internal organs, eye problems later, whatever.

I know that my next dog is going to come from a top-notch breeder, as well.

On the other hand, if this prospective breeder of yours truly loves the breed, she might very well be taking the right measures to throw out good dogs. Maybe you could go visit again, and sit down and have "tea" with her. She should be even more friendly the next time, and disarmed. Look her in the eye and ask what she would do if a pup came out a little "different"? The breeder I went to showed me 3, sitting in separate pens. 3 mos, 6 mos., 1.5 years, all sitting at the farthest point from visitors, watching everyone via peripheral vision. She allowed me to examine them all, but was adamant they weren't for sale, unless I could assure her professionally I could do something positive with them. I asked what her plans were for them. She said straight out, "These dogs will live the rest of their days here with me on my farm." I believe her, otherwise that 1.5 year old wouldn't still be there, you know what I mean? This woman loves the breed that much. Most operations her size would put them down, and a true puppy mill or BYB would sell them to some ususpecting person anyway.

I think the answer you get to a question like that says a lot about where their heads and hearts are at, you know what I mean?

Just thoughts, and hope they help.


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