# Michael Ellis is amazing



## echo's dad (Jun 15, 2016)

Michael Ellis is probably the best dog trainer out there today. His dog training philosophy makes perfect sense and his knowledge is astounding. I always swore that I would never become the disciple of one specific trainer but there you have it, he got me!
I have trained my 4.5 month old GSD using his Marker training method and among other achievements he can already heal off lead in a strange environment with mild distractions.
This is not an advert for Leerburg or any of Michael Ellis's products and services but I just felt that I had to share it with everyone and give credit where it is due. This man is the real Dog Whisperer.:grin2:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

echo's dad said:


> Michael Ellis is probably the best dog trainer out there today.


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## echo's dad (Jun 15, 2016)

echo's dad said:


> Michael Ellis is probably the best dog trainer out there today.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=381057&thumb=1


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Baillif said:


>


Who are your favorites?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Ivan, that's no secret. Francois Massart who does most of Cranks decoy work now is actually a really complete trainer. He is a best kept secret right now. If you are wanting to do French or Mondioring and you're in the LA area you need to go check him out. He does pet OB too. Dovat is also super nice in a suit and has won Mondioring worlds I think 5 times now. I haven't been able to work with him yet because I've been stuck training pets whenever he's flown into the States but he's impressed people I know that are not easy to impress. His record speaks for itself.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Anyway the point I'm trying to make is this. ME isn't even the best trainer in the state of California. The best trainers in the world right now with the exception of Ivan and a few other US IPO people I'm not going to start naming off are European. The bulk of which are French Belgian or German.

I'm not even speaking in terms of competitive results either. I'm talking in terms of completeness as a trainer in what they know about dogs, their training methods, their knowledge of the animal in general.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Isn't it all subjective when you get near the top? Its who you can learn from. 
If I watched Michael Ellis, and his system didn't click for me, I'd think he's the worst. However if Deb Zappia's system clicked for me, I'd think she was the greatest. We all interpret things differently. 
Just my opinion.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's not subjective. It isn't philosophy. In the end whatever you decide to do to train a dog is based on hard science of learning theory. If you're leaving out entire quadrants of operant conditioning or can't understand them like you should understand them then you have serious gaps in your ability as a trainer. There are trainers out there that despite a huge gap in their knowledge can still accomplish a lot. 

If you train everything the right way the first time you teach it you don't have to know how to go back and fix something later for instance. But that trainer doesn't have as much value as the trainers who know how to get it right the first time but also know how to go back and fix it when it goes wrong quickly and efficiently. Especially true in the case of sport training where lots of people have screwed up foundation work somewhere or another and have issues they need fixed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Is that like saying everybody is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts? :wink2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think by its very definition learning theory is not generally classified as a hard science. At least when I learned it academically, it was in my psychology courses....an entire course devoted to brain and behavior, entire course devoted to learning, under the bachelor's degree of psychology, which tends to be classified as soft science.

Bailif, to me what you said "there are trainers with huge gaps in their knowledge who can accomplish a lot" means it IS a little subjective.

Who is to say who or what is absolutely right and absolutely wrong when it comes to dog training? It isnt like math where there is only one right answer.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think by its very definition learning theory is not generally classified as a hard science. At least when I learned it academically, it was in my psychology courses....an entire course devoted to brain and behavior, entire course devoted to learning, under the bachelor's degree of psychology, which tends to be classified as soft science.
> 
> Bailif, to me what you said "there are trainers with huge gaps in their knowledge who can accomplish a lot" means it IS a little subjective.
> 
> Who is to say who or what is absolutely right and absolutely wrong when it comes to dog training? It isnt like math where there is only one right answer.


:thumbup:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I mean, lets just say someone just reached the highest level of competition in some discipline, lets say Mondio worlds since you brought that up, say they did it with the type of malinois I think I remember you saying yours are Bailif, a dog who can really take a hard correction and bounce right back like nothing.

That person if they use those methods is not going to succeed at all with my male pup. 

Or does part of being a great dog trainer mean that you adjust your methods to suit the dog you are working with, some of whom need rare and mild corrections, that again tells me dog training isn't a hard science.

If someone breaks their leg, there is one best way to fix that, one perscribed best way of acting (stay off it).

When someone has PTSD, sometimes CBT and an antidepressant will work the best. Or DBT and no meds, or maybe even benzodiazepines to control severe anxiety. Pyschology is like dog training to me.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sorry for ranting but the more I think about this, the more that pops up. I trained horses and apprenticed with horse trainers and traveled all over doing clinics with some of the best horse trainers out there, some of whom were world class at that timek some of whom shortly later were on our US olympic equestrian team. From that experience I can simply and easily say that some people had better chemistry with certain students and that matters as to whether the student is learning and succeeding. Some of them also had better chemistry with the horses, or with certain horses, or certain types of horses.

They did not all agree on what was the right or wrong way to accomplish certain things and sometimes you might hit a wall with one and need to get help from another.

I have not been so lucky as to be one on one with dog people quite as accomplished as the horse people I have had the privilege to learn from, though I am always looking for opportunities, but I doubt that it is really that drastically different on this subject.

My current method of judging a trainer is this: do they help me get better at what I do without making me feel like crap? Am I getting results that are noticeable (improvement) in my dog's performance and also attitude...is my dog happy?

Sounds like the OP's experience passed that test so Ellis is working for them. My experience was the same. 

I also don't like to put people on pedestals so I try to be realistic about anyo e...do they know more than me? Yes, good. Are they a god? No. Might there be someone else who is better at something? Yep. Keep eyes and ears open


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The people I named don't just work with one type of dog. If that was the case I would not have named them. They can work with any dog. Now can they win worlds with any dog in any sport? Of course not. You need a nice dog for those kinds of sports otherwise the dog just won't ever be competitive. It doesn't matter if you were the best Olympic sprint coach in the world you can't win gold with Joe Schmoe the couch potato. 

Second ME does have a specific type of dog he works with. A play driven highly food motivated dog. Am I saying he can't train dogs that are not like that? No. He can train a dog. I'm just saying there are tons of trainers out there who are more complete and can do it better faster and with less energy expended.

Crank does take hard corrections and bounces right back. I very rarely correct him hard. It usually isn't necessary if you teach correctly. I didn't say dog training was a hard science I said learning theory was and on its not completely hard in terms of numbers but the basis of learning theory and learning by consequence is pretty cut and dry with few exceptions.

Dogs are much much simpler than humans so a comparison there between dog and human psychology is going to lose usefulness quick. Depression and neurochemical imbalances is a whole other bag of worms.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

ausdland said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > I think by its very definition learning theory is not generally classified as a hard science. At least when I learned it academically, it was in my psychology courses....an entire course devoted to brain and behavior, entire course devoted to learning, under the bachelor's degree of psychology, which tends to be classified as soft science.
> ...



You missed the other points so I'll sum it up like this.

Dolphins are stupid but they work real hard.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ever heard of ****'s Last Resort restaurant?I wonder if a dog training franchise based on that business model would be successful? 
I like Michael Ellis too,Tyler Muto,Jamie Penrith,and enjoy the Stonnie videos that MAWL has posted a few times regarding puppies.

*nickname for Richard!
The forum edited it


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> The people I named don't just work with one type of dog. If that was the case I would not have named them. They can work with any dog. Now can they win worlds with any dog in any sport? Of course not. You need a nice dog for those kinds of sports otherwise the dog just won't ever be competitive. It doesn't matter if you were the best Olympic sprint coach in the world you can't win gold with Joe Schmoe the couch potato.
> 
> Second ME does have a specific type of dog he works with. A play driven highly food motivated dog. Am I saying he can't train dogs that are not like that? No. He can train a dog. I'm just saying there are tons of trainers out there who are more complete and can do it better faster and with less energy expended.
> 
> ...


Do you feel that ME is more of a specialist to loosely sum it up? As opposed to someone who is more well rounded? 
Sorry for the dumb question in advance.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Do you feel that ME is more of a specialist to loosely sum it up? As opposed to someone who is more well rounded?
> Sorry for the dumb question in advance.


What is dumb about wanting to learn from somebody with knowledge and experience?


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## echo's dad (Jun 15, 2016)

ME is probably not THE best trainer in the world. The best trainer in the world is probably some East European guy in a rural village somewhere. ME just opened up my eyes to a great training system and it works for me and most importantly - it works for my dog. It is infinitely better than the compulsion training I started with 20 years ago. Mmmmm, I sound like Ed Frawley.:grin2:
I also agree with some people that there are similarities between dog training and human psychology. Just like you have the Freudian, Jungian, Adler, Frankl, CBT etc. models of psychology, dog training is similar, albeit not AS varied. Try to get a bunch of psychologists to discuss the best models for psycho-analysis and then you will see a thread that will break the internet.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baillif said:


> ausdland said:
> 
> 
> > You missed the other points so I'll sum it up like this.
> ...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baillif said:


> The people I named don't just work with one type of dog. If that was the case I would not have named them. They can work with any dog. Now can they win worlds with any dog in any sport? Of course not. You need a nice dog for those kinds of sports otherwise the dog just won't ever be competitive. It doesn't matter if you were the best Olympic sprint coach in the world you can't win gold with Joe Schmoe the couch potato.
> 
> Second ME does have a specific type of dog he works with. A play driven highly food motivated dog. Am I saying he can't train dogs that are not like that? No. He can train a dog. I'm just saying there are tons of trainers out there who are more complete and can do it better faster and with less energy expended.
> 
> ...


I didnt use depression as an example. I used PTSD. It is the result of environmental causitive factors plus possibly some sort of predisposition for it in the individual.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If I am not mistaken, they did all the experiments on animals' learning ability, they even did experiments producing psychological conditions in animals, in order to learn about those things in people, so we arent THAT different. More complex, y8u could say, but we cant smell like dogs can either, so in that way thsy are more complex than us.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And to leave the dolphins behind . . . echo's dad, give yourself some credit also for picking up on the gist of marker training and applying it in practice with success - I've seen people do years of clicker classes, and STILL, they didn't 'get' what the clicker did, and didn't use it correctly! 

With the positive results you are getting, you know you are doing it right.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> And to leave the dolphins behind . . . echo's dad, give yourself some credit also for picking up on the gist of marker training and applying it in practice with success - I've seen people do years of clicker classes, and STILL, they didn't 'get' what the clicker did, and didn't use it correctly!
> 
> With the positive results you are getting, you know you are doing it right.


 I agree and I was going to say, who cares if ME has a "type" of dog he does best with, it is working for the OP's dogs, it worked for my dogs, including increasing food drive in my male to the point that food became a useful tool for us again when prior to that it no longer was. I am happy with my results and so is the OP, what could be wrong with that?

Which by the way is another strength of Ellis' techniques...I like using food to train, I know some people don't but I do, and I have been able to use his methods to get some "meh" dogs inspired to work with enthusiasm when that is not how they started. 

If you don't want to train dogs with food at all, ME probably isn't your guy...there is usually a nut for every bolt so to speak.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Also many times pet owners aren't concerned with"speed and efficiency".We enjoy the journey.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Someone on here if he reads this will know who he is recently pointed out to me some things about Michael Ellis. Like...the flip side of "Michael Ellis is amazing", which I appreciate because I never want to have an unrealistic or incomplete knowledge of someone that I am looking up to.

Here is a other thought though, these other great trainers that were mentioned: do they have schools & libraries of dvds available? I believe Ivan has some of that. But for those who don't, they just arent as accessible to pet people across the country.

About the "science" of dog training....it was mentioned that there might potentially be a gold standard right way to do it, but also that different dogs need different approaches and a great dog trainer will be good at different approaches for different dogs. To me that is exactly why dog training is not a "hard science" with one right way, and then add to that there will be no dog training without also the owner of the dog whose style of learning must also be taken into consideration.

Considering what some of the resources are available to pet owners, I absolutely think Michael Ellis is awesome. There is training dogs, then there is teaching people.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If the OP got good results with ME, congratulations! I think that is great someone found a method that works for his dog and himself. I know Ed Frawley loves him. I have watched several ME videos and was not impressed at all. He talks a lot but I've never seen him with his hands on a dog and a leash, or even in the same room with a dog. Can someone direct me to a video where he is explaining what he does while working with a live dog and getting results anyone can follow?

I even paid once for a talk training series with a very popular trainer. I got halfway through the series and decided all the talking they can cram into a seminar does nothing compared to five minutes of watching a trainer work a dog. Anyone can talk.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Someone on here if he reads this will know who he is recently pointed out to me some things about Michael Ellis. Like...the flip side of "Michael Ellis is amazing", which I appreciate because I never want to have an unrealistic or incomplete knowledge of someone that I am looking up to.
> 
> Here is a other thought though, these other great trainers that were mentioned: do they have schools & libraries of dvds available? I believe Ivan has some of that. But for those who don't, they just arent as accessible to pet people across the country.
> 
> ...


I agree. I did my best GSD training years ago when I was very young using a leather leash and an old fashioned choke chain. Second best using a prong in the days before every other dog we met on a walk was an untrained pit. More recently, after learning I was "abusing" my dog because I don't use PO and stuff the dog with food, I have had some spectacular training failures and messes to clean up. The best advice I gave myself was firing the trainer who says dogs are dogs and they all have the potential to become aggressive, and only he has the ability to save us from our dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Also many times pet owners aren't concerned with"speed and efficiency".We enjoy the journey.


Then there are those who over time have come to learn to teach what you need and to just go and enjoy your dog. :smile2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> If the OP got good results with ME, congratulations! I think that is great someone found a method that works for his dog and himself. I know Ed Frawley loves him. I have watched several ME videos and was not impressed at all. He talks a lot but I've never seen him with his hands on a dog and a leash, or even in the same room with a dog. Can someone direct me to a video where he is explaining what he does while working with a live dog and getting results anyone can follow?
> 
> I even paid once for a talk training series with a very popular trainer. I got halfway through the series and decided all the talking they can cram into a seminar does nothing compared to five minutes of watching a trainer work a dog. Anyone can talk.


Most of the demos of him with dogs are not available for free on youtube. Its there but you have to buy it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If the OP got good results with ME, congratulations! I think that is great someone found a method that works for his dog and himself. I know Ed Frawley loves him. I have watched several ME videos and was not impressed at all. He talks a lot but I've never seen him with his hands on a dog and a leash, or even in the same room with a dog. Can someone direct me to a video where he is explaining what he does while working with a live dog and getting results anyone can follow?
> 
> I even paid once for a talk training series with a very popular trainer. I got halfway through the series and decided all the talking they can cram into a seminar does nothing compared to five minutes of watching a trainer work a dog. Anyone can talk.


There are plenty of them out there. I will have to look some up and send them your way.


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> If the OP got good results with ME, congratulations! I think that is great someone found a method that works for his dog and himself. I know Ed Frawley loves him. I have watched several ME videos and was not impressed at all. He talks a lot but I've never seen him with his hands on a dog and a leash, or even in the same room with a dog. Can someone direct me to a video where he is explaining what he does while working with a live dog and getting results anyone can follow?
> 
> I even paid once for a talk training series with a very popular trainer. I got halfway through the series and decided all the talking they can cram into a seminar does nothing compared to five minutes of watching a trainer work a dog. Anyone can talk.


There are videos where ME works with the dog. But, I also find it helpful to watch him teach a novice handler and then watch that handler train their dog while he coaches them. That's far more helpful, in my opinion, than watching an experienced handler and a dog that already know the exercise.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

E.Hatch said:


> There are videos where ME works with the dog. But, I also find it helpful to watch him teach a novice handler and then watch that handler train their dog while he coaches them. That's far more helpful, in my opinion, than watching an experienced handler and a dog that already know the exercise.


I want to see a trainer interact with a dog, too, or I won't work with them. A very well respected local trainer misread one of my dogs and shoved it against the wall because he said my dog was showing signs of aggression. That was not true. We had already made arrangements for a private session, so I reluctantly went through with it. He kicked my dog, he said it was an accident, he didn't expect the dog to turn, and a string of excuses but a woman saw it and was shocked, too. We told him it wasn't working out and never went back. I decided if he wasn't watching the dog closely enough to anticipate or was too clumsy to get out of the way. He wasn't agile enough to work with a drivey dog. I also saw him with his own dog and the dog was terrified of him. Our current trainer loves dogs. I've watched him work with several and they have a connection. The dogs love working with him. They are alert, tails wagging and eager.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I want to see a trainer interact with a dog too, just not my dog. Because I don't want to find out on my dog that I shouldnt have turned over the leash. I let the clicker trainer use him for demos in puppy class but I knew he was safe with her.

Later group classes I refused to let the trainer have my dog and I was right. He was a loose cannon. I wanted the CGC so I stuck with it but I never gave him an opportunity to do anything stupid to my dog and I have since met a woman whose dog bit him after he took it out of her sight and gave the dog some kind of physical punishment. He then supported her in alpha rolling an incredibly fearful dog in the middle of a petco. 

I am a control freak with my dogs but all things considered, I think that is the right way to be. People can be dumb and just because someone says they are a dog trainer doesnt mean they won't do something irresponsible.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I want to see a trainer interact with a dog, too, or I won't work with them. A very well respected local trainer misread one of my dogs and shoved it against the wall *because he said my dog was showing signs of aggression.* That was not true. We had already made arrangements for a private session, so I reluctantly went through with it. He kicked my dog, he said it was an accident, he didn't expect the dog to turn, and a string of excuses but a woman saw it and was shocked, too. We told him it wasn't working out and never went back. I decided if he wasn't watching the dog closely enough to anticipate or was too clumsy to get out of the way. He wasn't agile enough to work with a drivey dog. I also saw him with his own dog and the dog was terrified of him. Our current trainer loves dogs. I've watched him work with several and they have a connection. The dogs love working with him. They are alert, tails wagging and eager.


Your dog is a German Shepherd, not a Golden Retriever. You'll have that.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

today leaving work I said to a co worker "My dogs just had the best routes ever this afternoon".

I didn't mean it.

it's a figure of speech.

please, hold the memes


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your dog is a German Shepherd, not a Golden Retriever. You'll have that.


He's not that aggressive. He was barking a little This guy was supposed to know GSDs. I told you about him. Then I found out his dog was ASL. Very different temperament.


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## InControlK9 (Sep 23, 2013)

Baillif said:


> It's not subjective.


uuhhh yeah it is


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

InControlK9 said:


> uuhhh yeah it is


To people who don't understand the practical application of classical and operant conditioning it sure seems like it. To people who go to seminars or cruise YouTube looking for that magic move they are missing to finally get their dog doing the behavior sure it seems like it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

People with a ton of videos on You Tube are businessmen (or women) first. It's a great way to drum up business, especially when you use a flashy malinois as a demo dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Classical and operant conditioning do what they do. Although the response to a reward or punishment will vary by dog and even vary according to how it was administered by the trainer. 

Another way it varies is by what quadrant a trainer chooses to apply to a dog'show behavior


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Subjective means that something is influenced by a person's tastes, feelings or opinions. Some trainers usE a lot of pressure and corrections to get results, some trainers use a lot of reward and motivation. 

They do that based on their opinion, presumably from past experience or being told by a mentor, that it is the "right" or "best" way to train a dog.

Which quadrants of Operant conditioning work on a dog is also subjective from the dog'a point of view. What if they don't care about being praised or won't take food? I have met dogs like that. it doesn't change what operant conditioning is but it does change which parts of it are useful to the trainer.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right but guess what? There are a lot of trainers out there which will adapt what they do to the dog and have no limit to techniques to choose from because they know the theory well enough to even be able to create something new they haven't done before on the spot to help a dog get a concept quickly and clearly without having to resort on a ton of pressure. The truely talented and knowledgable trainers don't mindlessly adhere to a fixed system for every single dog. 

They won't work for food praise or toy? They all work to relieve pressure.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Right Bailif, I absolutely agree that a good trainer will adapt their methods to what works best for the dog, and I absolutely agree that mindlessly applying one inflexible system to every dog isn't a great way to train a dog.

That was actually the point that I was trying to make when you were saying things like this is a hard science and there is one right way.......?

However there definitely are trainers who are rigid in their system, either force free or force only, and how or why they are that way seems to be the subjective part.

For that matter it is only my opinion that the statement above constitutes a good dog trainer and that makes that subjective.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Right but guess what? There are a lot of trainers out there which will adapt what they do to the dog and have no limit to techniques to choose from because they know the theory well enough to even be able to create something new they haven't done before on the spot to help a dog get a concept quickly and clearly without having to resort on a ton of pressure. The truely talented and knowledgable trainers don't mindlessly adhere to a fixed system for every single dog.
> 
> They won't work for food praise or toy? They all work to relieve pressure.


Our trainer does that. He also selects the methods based on who is handling the dog and how well he thinks they can manage different methods or tools.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The science of learning theory is pretty cut and dry as far as OC and CC are concerned. Now there are rare events and occurrences that aren't explained by these theories but for the most part we don't really see much of that. 

The way you train is practical application of that theory. His system is missing a huge component of good practical application an entire quadrant.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Our trainer does that. He also selects the methods based on who is handling the dog and how well he thinks they can manage different methods or tools.


And that is an entire skill unto itself. Some clients you can give the world some can barely manage to get around themselves. The one that did most of the walking of the dog was pretty far along with Parkisons. In that case both clients were elderly and had a little 8 year old dog that had been getting into dog fights and leash aggressive it's whole life. The leash reactivity was worked on but since they were super late in timing and the dog had gotten away from them and attacked a few times we had to pretty much bark collar the dog and then tie it to him and then muzzle it to comply with an HOA ordinance. There was just no other way. It did work though. Dog gets to walk doesn't go nuts on leash and no innocent dogs got bit again.

If clients are unable to maintain criteria you have to find something that works sometimes or something that works satisfactorily to their limitations.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok going to have to go back and research. But off the top of my head I really think I recall him using all 4. 

Are you saying absolutely not at all or not as much as you think he should?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He thinks he uses all four.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

You should buy a malinois, make flashy videos and make some money! Its just that easy .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Easier to sell out to leerburg and make some how to raise a working puppy DVDs


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Actually, training a well bred malinois to make flashy vids is very easy, especially if you are the breeder and have pick of a high drive litter. 

It is that easy to make some sweet videos of flashy OB, for sure... but you need a bigger concept marketing plan to actually make money off it, and that is where the Leerburg machine kicks in.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

So, are the Leerburg videos useful or just hype? I always wondered if they were worth it. Their freebies do a good job of selling their programs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you're just starting out yeah it's a great starting point. Not saying his stuff is bad or has no value. It definitely has value. just make sure if you do get those beginner level DVDs you go into the ones where prong pressure and stuff like that gets used. Don't just assume it begins and ends with the food and play.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Actually, training a well bred malinois to make flashy vids is very easy, especially if you are the breeder and have pick of a high drive litter.
> 
> It is that easy to make some sweet videos of flashy OB, for sure... but you need a bigger concept marketing plan to actually make money off it, and that is where the Leerburg machine kicks in.


Lol


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey LuvSheps,

I got a bunch of the ME/Leerburg vids second hand from a friend. I have the "Power" of tug and food, the recall one, and the older e-collar one.

They have some value, for starting out and seeing what is out there, and ME is a studmuffin, so there's that. Beautiful malinois and even "fluffies" (tervuren) in the recall video. 

I haven't seen the finishing videos, doubt I'll buy them, but if someone gave me a copy, I'd certainly watch it. I do think that the videos seem to get better with time. 

The real way to learn to train is working with a good club or trainer and/or learning the foundations of training yourself and working your dog. And if the videos motivate you to do that, there is certainly value in that.

But it's kind of like trying to learn how to be a surgeon by watching a bunch of videos of a surgeon at work. You'll certainly get something out of it, but you need to go somewhere else to get the foundational knowledge and then experience. Surgery is a bit more complicated to say the least, and takes 8-10 years of training, but the same idea applies to training dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Hey LuvSheps,
> 
> I got a bunch of the ME/Leerburg vids second hand from a friend. I have the "Power" of tug and food, the recall one, and the older e-collar one.
> 
> ...


Maybe the problem was you really weren't watching the videos, at least not for the right reasons? :grin2:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Some of the best looking men out there are surgeons. 

But I am getting off topic...


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