# worrying about today's growl



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi! 
We have a husky/shepherd mix ( rescue, had him 4 months now.)

So, today we were out on our street and a nice boy walked by (age 11 maybe?). He was smiling at Rumo with interest, and Rumo was interested in him. I let Rumo walk up to him, the boy petted him gently on the head (yes, inwardly I was flinching at the "head" part but I thought it would be ok since Rumo usually doesn't mind as long as he is standing up). Then after a bit of petting, the boy was like, gotta go. As he was walking away, Rumo growled once and nipped lightly at him from behind!! 

I know Rumo very well now, and to my eye, the interpretation was, "You can't go away yet! I was enjoying that, and I'm not done with you yet."
It just seemed like very dominant pushy behavior. :-( 
I was unhappy and I let Rumo know it (I talked to him angrily, and he was watching my face) but I'm not sure what else to do.

Usually we avoid meeting people when out walking, but this boy seemed like a dog-lover and a nice kid, so I made an exception...

I would describe Rumo as normally calm, well-behaved, obedient, affectionate. Every once in a while, these "rough edges" show up on him, and I don't know what to make of it. I guess I will just avoid all people when out on walks? I'm pretty introverted anyway, so it's not a big sacrifice. I think I just wanted to make that boy happy!:frown2:


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Just a suggestion but instead of an angry face and talk, maybe a neutral expression or firm expression and a very solid collar pop would be more clear to him. 

My boy did the same thing to the mailman when he was a brat teen. Accepted an appropriate greeting from the adult then lunged when,his back was turned. I'm not proud of this but I'll stand firm on what I did. He was leashed and the prong was on and I gave him one solid "come to Jesus" collar correction. My mind set at the time and still is set this way, If I deem it ok for someone to approach (and I take considerable care before I deem it ok) I expect and demand that my boy appropriately behaves for the greeting. He is 6 now and hasn't done the back lunge since that collar pop, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't happen again. All it means is that I had to really learn my dog's language and I also built on our trust bond. It takes a while to learn and actually has strengthened our relationship. 

There is more to knowing your dog than the ability to interpreting why he growled and nipped. It's the split second precursors before the growl, the muscle stiffening, how the eyes and ears are set etc. The reason why he did it imho really doesn't matter other than that now you know what he can and will do.

This is just a suggestion and an example of my own experience so take it with a grain of salt and listen to your gut with how you handle your dog while your learning his body language. I'm sure you will get to where you want to be with him.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I just thought o f something that you could also do if ever you do decide to allow a greeting, just as the person is about to walk away, you initiate the leaving by turning and walking away first "with a come boy, lets go" happy tone. It may help set him up for a more successful ending to the greet.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

He doesn't mind being touched on the head only if he's standing?Really sounds like he's not comfortable with being touched by strangers at all.If it were me I would decline every time.If he merely bumps a tooth on someone,especially a child,you're very possibly in hot water.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I gotta agree with @Heartandsoul on this one. For me personally, any dog I have or will ever own is not allowed to show any agression whatsoever to a child for any reason ever. While I agree with @dogma13 too, avoiding a scenario that you know the dog is uncomfortable with is good, sometimes things happen. And when or if it does, my dogs know in no uncertain terms that they'll have to answer to me if they do anything other than get away when a situation involves a child. In this case, I would immediately issue an incredibly harsh correction, such that the dog would not soon, if ever, forget it! No hesitation, it has to be immediate, and then forgotten just as quickly to be effective. And I do pay close attention when kids are interacting with my puppy or dog, and teach them ahead of time that getting away is a good option. But nipping at a child walking away? No. That's an immediate correction every single time!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Thanks all,
I like the idea of using a stern correction if it ever happens again.
I was taken off-guard and utterly surprised, since this was his first time! 
Next time, I will be on guard...
Also, I didn't see his warning signals because his back was to me and he was facing the boy. 
I need to move closer so I can watch more carefully...(this may freak out people who are used to a polite standing distance, but hey).

Thinking back, this was the first time the kid went away first. 
Usually I let them pet briefly, and then I take Rumo away. 
Also, Rumo himself is changing...?
In the first months, he ignored humans when out and about (fine by me!)
and now he is becoming weirdly social- he will try to sniff people when they go by, acts curious about strangers, etc.


PS-
In answer to growling - he has growled at grownups before too! All 3 of the growls happened when he was laying down, and they leaned over him to pet his head. However when standing, grownups have petted him on the head and he's been fine. I had a thread asking about this, and I decided just to not let people pet him on the head when he's laying down!! With grownups, I ask them to let him approach first. With kids, I gate him in the kitchen when they're over, and allow some supervised petting.

PPS-
Rumo shows no dominance/pushiness at home. i.e. last night I was working on a project with my daughter on the kitchen floor, and I was worried that he would step on it. When he came over to investigate, I pointed at the project and said something in a warning tone, and he never came it near it again - in fact, he decided he should go lay down on his dogbed in the living room. That is the kind of guy he is...so his behavior to the boy is very puzzling.


But, going to be prepared and on guard with a firm clear correction for the next situation!!
I think I'll be saying "No!" with the leash pop, the instant he tries it.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I don't let stangers or kids pet Inga ever. I just say in a happy voice Not right now, she's in training.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GSDchoice said:


> Thanks all,
> I like the idea of using a stern correction if it ever happens again.
> I was taken off-guard and utterly surprised, since this was his first time!
> Next time, I will be on guard...
> ...


I'd look at this as a matter of your dog can only handle so much, and live with him that way. To me the nipping as the kid walks away, is more a chicken waste reaction to being made to accept something he didn't want. They can give you an impression of being social for a minute, and flip to that's too much with out you knowing where that line is exactly. I'd be very careful of putting him situations like that, then correcting him at the wrong time. I think its better with a dog like that, to use a little distance and tell people they can't pet him. Remove some of whats spinning around in his head by letting him learn to be a little more indifferent and not worry about everyone.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Steve said ^^^.Sometimes dogs will tolerate something many times before they reach the point of feeling overwhelmed.If it were me I'd keep my distance from strangers and not flood him with situations where he's uncomfortable.My boy Samson does not want to be handled by strangers.You'd never know it because he stays very discreetly about 3 feet away and ignores them.If they reach toward him he hops back and resumes his position or keeps on walking.He never feels that he needs to protect himself.He will sometimes be curious and get closer to sniff but stays out of reach.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't see how that teaches the dog anything, it's just managing around a bad behavior. Why not work to extinguish it?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't see how that teaches the dog anything, it's just managing around a bad behavior. Why not work to extinguish it?


I look at temperament as hard wired, you can't change it. So my goal is no one gets bit and the dog learns to behave. Lets say you go through all the steps and whatever people do to extinguish something and let people pet the dog. I think what you end up with is a dog that you may have altered what they'll tolerate, but you're still basically with the same problem, you don't know what that limit is. And whats the benefit? Someone other then you petting a dog that's tolerating it? Hopefully? 

If you teach the dog to behave and some of those grey areas in his head go away, you may end up seeing him enjoying, not just tolerating. You just pay attention to the dog over time, and see. It may seem like a contradiction, but to me its a difference of training vs temperament and learning about your dog. Does that make sense Tim?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I look at temperament as hard wired, you can't change it. So my goal is no one gets bit and the dog learns to behave. Lets say you go through all the steps and whatever people do to extinguish something and let people pet the dog. I think what you end up with is a dog that you may have altered what they'll tolerate, but you're still basically with the same problem, you don't know what that limit is. And whats the benefit? Someone other then you petting a dog that's tolerating it? Hopefully? 5
> 
> If you teach the dog to behave and some of those grey areas in his head go away, you may end up seeing him enjoying, not just tolerating. You just pay attention to the dog over time, and see. It may seem like a contradiction, but to me its a difference of training vs temperament and learning about your dog. Does that make sense Tim?


Sort of lol. I guess I don't see this as a temperament issue. I wouldn't force a dog to tolerate being petted by strangers if they didn't want to be. But I think it is important for the dog to learn how to avoid that without resorting to teeth. In this case, unless the OP left out that detail, there's no reason at all to believe the dog was uncomfortable with the kid petting him. In my view his snipping at the kid is just a bratty behavior that is inappropriate, and I'd be inclined to teach the dog that it would not be tolerated. If the dog doesn't want the kid petting him, he can and should walk away, and if he did I'd certainly honor that choice by intervening...

Different strokes eh?!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Sort of lol. I guess I don't see this as a temperament issue. I wouldn't force a dog to tolerate being petted by strangers if they didn't want to be. But I think it is important for the dog to learn how to avoid that without resorting to teeth. In this case, unless the OP left out that detail, there's no reason at all to believe the dog was uncomfortable with the kid petting him. In my view his snipping at the kid is just a bratty behavior that is inappropriate, and I'd be inclined to teach the dog that it would not be tolerated. If the dog doesn't want the kid petting him, he can and should walk away, and if he did I'd certainly honor that choice by intervening...
> 
> Different strokes eh?!


For me, you can never separate temperament from anything. The fact that he nipped when he thought he could get away with it, when the kid walked away is what I'd say shows the dog was tolerating and uncomfortable the whole time. Loading up, and then it came out, at that moment when the kid turned away. Forcing a dog to tolerate is the same point I'm making though. That's what I think is the bad idea, and then adding in what could be a badly timed correction, It doesn't help anything.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> For me, you can never separate temperament from anything. The fact that he nipped when he thought he could get away with it, *when the kid walked away is what I'd say shows the dog was tolerating and uncomfortable the whole time.* Loading up, and then it came out, at that moment when the kid turned away. Forcing a dog to tolerate is the same point I'm making though. That's what I think is the bad idea, and then adding in what could be a badly timed correction, It doesn't help anything.


This 1000x. The dog tolerated because it did not have the nerve for confrontation but once the child was moving along, the dog took advantage of a turned back to hasten the process.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

The op has only had the dog for 5 months or so and it is a rescue. I'm rethinking my first response to her wasn't the best example to offer for her situation with the exception of taking time to learn her dog. Especially after reading all the other replies. What I did worked for us but He has been mine since 8wks old.

That "tolerating and loading up" made a lot of sense and I think anyone who spends a good deal of quality time over the course of time with their dog becomes subconsciously aware of their dogs nuances.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't know. The OP said:



> So, today we were out on our street and a nice boy walked by (age 11 maybe?). He was smiling at Rumo with interest, and Rumo was interested in him. I let Rumo walk up to him, the boy petted him gently on the head (yes, inwardly I was flinching at the "head" part but I thought it would be okay...


If the dog hadn't initiated contact I might actually buy into this train of thought. But in a previous post the OP stated that the dog always welcomed pets from kids. Either way, I have a very low tolerance threshold for aggression toward children. So whatever the motivation, snapping at a kid is not a behavior I will tolerate from my dog ever! For that he would get an immediate and severe correction every time. IMHO this dog needs to learn that there are other, much more favorable, options for avoiding something he doesn't like.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I basically agree with you but with this dog and owner, until a trainer can be brought in, it would serve the op best to just avoid situations for now. The dog isn't a pup in the brat stage, and may possibly have other not yet observed triggers. A poorly timed collar correction can amp him up. Personal experience with poorly timed collar pops, it can land one on the ground. It seems to me it's not something the op can afford to happen.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its one of those internal conflicts that comes with weak nerves in some dogs. " I want to be friendly, I really do,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Ahhhhhhh, I just can't do it..........." I think its why people have one of those he's never done that before moments when their dog bites someone. Once you know the dog will do that, rather then try and correct it out of them, I'd rather just start with giving them the better options and see how that effects their perception.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't see how that teaches the dog anything, it's just managing around a bad behavior. Why not work to extinguish it?


Management and training are not mutually exclusive. You can do both at the same time - train the behavior you want while managing the dog's environment to minimize their opportunities to practice the behavior you don't want. 

But in this particular case, for me, keeping people safe around my dog, and keeping my dog from being in a situation where a nip might occur would be the priority, so I would worry less about training than management. If I'm in a situation where I can do both, great. If not, the default choice is always going to be to prevent a bite.

The OP did not say how old this dog is, but it is a rescue they've had just a few months. Presumably, it's an adult dog. With an unknown background and a relatively new relationship, I would be much more cautious than with a known quantity such as a dog I'd raised from a puppy.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It is not, and was not, my intention to argue with you guys here. I just think that in addition to management, which is a given, that the dog needs to receive a clear message that snapping at a child will not be tolerated! I see that as doing the dog a favor, clearly communicating boundaries. IME dogs do appreciate the clarity, and it helps them make better choices moving forward. Our approaches are not that much different, except that I'm advocating clear communication immediately when the incident occurs, as opposed to careful management while waiting to see if the dog comes around on his own. Steve is obviously much more cerebral and Zen than I am. But again, I am not conflicted about my choice. My reaction would be instantaneous, and I will do it every time. IME my approach has worked out well, and relatively quickly too. 

My previous GSD was around 1 1/2 yrs d when I got her. She had just weened her first litter, and so was not yet recovered and acting her normal self...not that I had any idea what that might be yet! Initially she HATED small children though, and would growl and show her teeth at any child less that around 12 (it was a height thing for her, as need as I could tell) whenever they got within 6-7 feet of her. For the first 3 months I had her I did not correct her for anything, I kept kids back, and positioned myself in such a way that I would be able to intercept her if she decided to lunge. I did no training, just food, let her outside to do her business, and play. After that 3 months, we started working on basic obedience, and as part of that, I started letting her know what was good and what wasn't. I use marker words for both, and keep my voice low in volume for this. When it came to kids though, I made it very clear to her that moving away was good, snarling or snapping was not. As I got to know her better, it became evident that she didn't like kids because, as a very serious dog, she found them confusing. So the ultimate solution was teaching her that she didn't need to listen to anyone but me. Amazingly you could almost see the tension melt out of her, and she actually liked kids immensely after that! 

My point is, I stand by my previous advice to immediately correct behavior that is unacceptable. It's important to manage the situation and learn the dog yes, but IMHO it's equally important to let the dog know up front behaviors that are acceptable and behaviors that are not. I have a few personally that are not negotiable. Aggression toward children, and...okay, maybe I really only have one LOL! Dogs have the option to tolerate the child, or move away, period. Anything else is unacceptable to me, and I will not tolerate it. 

I'm not suggesting my way is the only "right" way, but it works and it's what I do. I have no doubt that others can achieve the same results using different methods. But in my opinion not correcting the dog for snapping at a child is doing a disservice to the dog. It's all about communication!

Somebody in another thread summarized raising a dog well IMO. They said, don't ever let your dog do anything that makes you not like them. Those are words to live by!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Steve is obviously much more cerebral and Zen than I am.


Ha, there's a first. I'm not arguing anything Tim. I agreed with the not forcing the dog post you made, and I've never said not to correct your dog, just to be careful about how and when. My point is that I think the management is a large part of the training. To me, its easier to see for sure what the dog can handle by approaching it that way and that fits with whole not forcing them. Correcting the dog doesn't alter his nerves, that's one of the reasons I think people get surprised by a dog bite. They can think they taught the dog "You aren't going to do that" and that automatically means the dog is going to be social. And I'm not comparing this dog to your's or anyone else's. I'm just looking at what the op said.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> He doesn't mind being touched on the head only if he's standing?Really sounds like he's not comfortable with being touched by strangers at all.If it were me I would decline every time.If he merely bumps a tooth on someone,especially a child,you're very possibly in hot water.


^this. I had a dog that starting doing this with maturity. When I described to the trainer, the answer was what was said above. Has he done it to familiar family and friends? Does he mind when familiar people pet or touch him iny particular way?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

GSDchoice said:


> Hi!
> We have a husky/shepherd mix ( rescue, had him 4 months now.)
> 
> So, today we were out on our street and a nice boy walked by (age 11 maybe?). He was smiling at Rumo with interest, and Rumo was interested in him. I let Rumo walk up to him, the boy petted him gently on the head (yes, inwardly I was flinching at the "head" part but I thought it would be ok since Rumo usually doesn't mind as long as he is standing up). Then after a bit of petting, the boy was like, gotta go. As he was walking away, Rumo growled once and nipped lightly at him from behind!!
> ...


The part I bolded is important to me. I'm sorry, GSDchoice, but you are reading your dog all wrong. What you saw was an insecure, nervous dog that bit as soon as the boy turned to walk away. There is nothing dominant or pushy about this. Unfortunately, many GSD's have a weak temperament and will bite a person in the butt as soon as they turn to walk away. The dogs are not strong enough to confront a person head on or face to face. What winds up happening is the dog running up and biting a person in the leg or butt, once the back is turned. Usually these dog's let go and run as soon as the person turns around. 

Training and learning to read your dog is going to be really critical. As others have mentioned, I would also limit contact to strangers. 

Best of luck, rescuing a dog is a labor of love. Some dog's take a lot of love and a lot of work to get to where you want them to be.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

"The fact that he nipped when he thought he could get away with it, when the kid walked away is what I'd say shows the dog was tolerating and uncomfortable the whole time. Loading up, and then it came out, at that moment when the kid turned away." 

Hmmm, interesting...
the WHY is after all important, because the WHY leads to how to manage...
if that is true, then just avoiding getting petted makes sense.
He did approach the boy himself, but maybe he was going for a SNIFF and instead he got PETTED, so then that was not OK...?

Well. Basically we'll keep steering clear of strangers/petting on walks,
and if meeting is for some reason unavoidable, I will be watching him like a hawk.

_( It does make me a little wistful about my first dog, a Great Dane - she used to stand on her hind legs and lick kids' faces when they came to visit her at the fence. She would go up to other dogs wagging her tail. This is why I didn't have a cautious mindset at all...in the early days, when kids asked to pet Rumo, I was like, "Sure!"
In fact I thought he would love it, like my first dog. But, I am learning!! _

Thanks for the feedback.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I didn't have time to finish but so far agree 1000% with Dogma and Steve S.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> It is not, and was not, my intention to argue with you guys here. I just think that in addition to management, which is a given, that the dog needs to receive a clear message that snapping at a child will not be tolerated! I see that as doing the dog a favor, clearly communicating boundaries. IME dogs do appreciate the clarity, and it helps them make better choices moving forward. Our approaches are not that much different, except that I'm advocating clear communication immediately when the incident occurs, as opposed to careful management while waiting to see if the dog comes around on his own. Steve is obviously much more cerebral and Zen than I am. But again, I am not conflicted about my choice. My reaction would be instantaneous, and I will do it every time. IME my approach has worked out well, and relatively quickly too.
> 
> My previous GSD was around 1 1/2 yrs d when I got her. She had just weened her first litter, and so was not yet recovered and acting her normal self...not that I had any idea what that might be yet! Initially she HATED small children though, and would growl and show her teeth at any child less that around 12 (it was a height thing for her, as need as I could tell) whenever they got within 6-7 feet of her. For the first 3 months I had her I did not correct her for anything, I kept kids back, and positioned myself in such a way that I would be able to intercept her if she decided to lunge. I did no training, just food, let her outside to do her business, and play. After that 3 months, we started working on basic obedience, and as part of that, I started letting her know what was good and what wasn't. I use marker words for both, and keep my voice low in volume for this. When it came to kids though, I made it very clear to her that moving away was good, snarling or snapping was not. As I got to know her better, it became evident that she didn't like kids because, as a very serious dog, she found them confusing. So the ultimate solution was teaching her that she didn't need to listen to anyone but me. Amazingly you could almost see the tension melt out of her, and she actually liked kids immensely after that!
> 
> ...


Here is my thing: in order to correct a dog for snapping at a child, the dog has to snap at a child.

Whose kid so you use as bait??

If this were my dog it would be a no pet, no approach dog. They can get comfortable when they realize they have your protection, and in my experience are less likely to react or snap when/if someone eventually breaches the boundary by accident, because there isn't all this stress built up from being approached and touched when they don't want to be.

Sometimes they calm down and change their tune after awhile. But constant approaches and touching of one of these dogs just makes them defensive, then they will snap, then they get corrected at the very end of it all which is way too late and I have not seen that be successful anyway. Every fearful dog that eventually snaps gets reprimanded by the owner and yanked back. I think being yanked back and taken out of it is sometimes rewarding enough to the insecure dog that if anything it just reinforces the snap

Also every single cheap shot dog I have ever seen was a fearful insecure dog like everyone else said.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Here is my thing: in order to correct a dog for snapping at a child, the dog has to snap at a child.
> 
> Whose kid so you use as bait??
> 
> ...


The OP has children and their children have friends, so it seems fairly likely that some interaction will occur in the future...even with careful management. So the point I was hoping to get across is that when/If the dog ever does snap at a child in the future it needs to be corrected for that immediately. Using positive punishment correctly results in deminishing a behavior, right? If it is in any way reinforcing to the dog, then it wasn't done correctly. To extinguish this behavior IMO will require both positive punishment and training. The dog needs to learn to get away from situations that make it uncomfortable. At the same time, it needs to learn in no uncertain terms that it's current goto of snipping isn't going to work.

I think everyone posting on this thread is in agreement that limiting the dog's exposure to kids especially in the near term is required. But it's an interim solution, not an end goal. The dog needs to learn how to behave more appropriately when it's feeling stressed for whatever reason.

As Steve said, you can't correct a dog's nerves. But to the extent his genetics will allow you can strengthen them through training. Every success the dog has learning a new behavior strengthens his confidence and his nerves.

What I was finding troubling in some of the advice given in this thread is that considering this a "no pet, no approach" dog as you and others have suggested does absolutely nothing to address the problem. And I've seen the effects of this line of thinking play out hundreds if not thousands of times. For some unwanted behavior, snapping, jumping, barking, biting, etc., etc. the dog is difficult to walk or can't be trusted around x, or has to be isolated for whatever reason. These dogs are not fun to be around and often end up neglected in the backyard to develop even more unwanted behaviors, until people just really don't like them any more, so they send them to, or back to, a shelter. 

Even considering the "no pet, no approach" policy as a limited term kind of thing, the dog may very well calm down and become more stable around strangers or kids because if it. But you have still done nothing to extinguish the biting behavior through training, so you can never really trust the dog much. 

I see it as possible, in the vast majority of cases, to extinguish this snippy behavior through a judicial use of corrections coupled with training acceptable alternative responses. It's worth repeating, don't ever allow or accept behavior that makes you not like your dog!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> The OP has children and their children have friends, so it seems fairly likely that some interaction will occur in the future...even with careful management. So the point I was hoping to get across is that when/If the dog ever does snap at a child in the future it needs to be corrected for that immediately. Using positive punishment correctly results in deminishing a behavior, right? If it is in any way reinforcing to the dog, then it wasn't done correctly. To extinguish this behavior IMO will require both positive punishment and training. The dog needs to learn to get away from situations that make it uncomfortable. At the same time, it needs to learn in no uncertain terms that it's current goto of snipping isn't going to work.
> 
> I think everyone posting on this thread is in agreement that limiting the dog's exposure to kids especially in the near term is required. But it's an interim solution, not an end goal. The dog needs to learn how to behave more appropriately when it's feeling stressed for whatever reason.
> 
> ...


Tim, I have to ask... have you ever had a genetically fearful dog? A dog with weak nerves? I understand where you’re coming from with your train of thought, I really do. But you cannot change a dog’s genetics. Positive punishment works well if the dog is just being a brat. But positive punishment is not always an effective course of action for a truly fearful dog. Setting them up for success by preventing them from having the opportunity to make bad decisions in the first place (yes, by letting them be a “not for petting” kind of dog) doesn’t mean they will be relegated to the backyard, left to languish and be forgotten. Is this kind of dog ideal for the average family with kids? Probably not. But careful management doesn’t have to mean the dog is forgotten. Now, I don’t know for sure where this dog’s behavior came from. None of us do. We can make guesses. But none of us were there. It sounds like an insecure dog to me. And insecure dogs require management. Confidence building is great, but that only goes as far as genetics will allow. You can hide weak nerves with training, but you can’t train weak nerves out of a dog.

To the OP, I would recommend bringing in a good trainer that is experienced with GSDs/working dogs and see what they think and recommend. In the meantime, I have to agree with the others here who have said to not allow kids/strangers to pet this dog right now. There’s no shame in not allowing a dog to be community property.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Tim, I have to ask... have you ever had a genetically fearful dog? A dog with weak nerves? I understand where you’re coming from with your train of thought, I really do. But you cannot change a dog’s genetics. Positive punishment works well if the dog is just being a brat. But positive punishment is not always an effective course of action for a truly fearful dog. Setting them up for success by preventing them from having the opportunity to make bad decisions in the first place (yes, by letting them be a “not for petting” kind of dog) doesn’t mean they will be relegated to the backyard, left to languish and be forgotten. Is this kind of dog ideal for the average family with kids? Probably not. But careful management doesn’t have to mean the dog is forgotten. Now, I don’t know for sure where this dog’s behavior came from. None of us do. We can make guesses. But none of us were there. It sounds like an insecure dog to me. And insecure dogs require management. Confidence building is great, but that only goes as far as genetics will allow. You can hide weak nerves with training, but you can’t train weak nerves out of a dog.
> 
> To the OP, I would recommend bringing in a good trainer that is experienced with GSDs/working dogs and see what they think and recommend. In the meantime, I have to agree with the others here who have said to not allow kids/strangers to pet this dog right now. There’s no shame in not allowing a dog to be community property.


Thank you


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> Tim, I have to ask... have you ever had a genetically fearful dog? A dog with weak nerves? I understand where you’re coming from with your train of thought, I really do. But you cannot change a dog’s genetics. Positive punishment works well if the dog is just being a brat. But positive punishment is not always an effective course of action for a truly fearful dog. Setting them up for success by preventing them from having the opportunity to make bad decisions in the first place (yes, by letting them be a “not for petting” kind of dog) doesn’t mean they will be relegated to the backyard, left to languish and be forgotten. Is this kind of dog ideal for the average family with kids? Probably not. But careful management doesn’t have to mean the dog is forgotten. Now, I don’t know for sure where this dog’s behavior came from. None of us do. We can make guesses. But none of us were there. It sounds like an insecure dog to me. And insecure dogs require management. Confidence building is great, but that only goes as far as genetics will allow. You can hide weak nerves with training, but you can’t train weak nerves out of a dog.
> 
> To the OP, I would recommend bringing in a good trainer that is experienced with GSDs/working dogs and see what they think and recommend. In the meantime, I have to agree with the others here who have said to not allow kids/strangers to pet this dog right now. There’s no shame in not allowing a dog to be community property.


100% completely agree. 

I have had genetically fearful dogs. 

MANAGEMENT is key. 

Not all behavioral issues can be corrected or trained away. 

I've found desensitizing type training to be helpful in increasing a genetically fearful dog's quality of life, but using corrections in a situation where the dog has already entered fight or flight are less helpful. Fearful behavior comes with a flood of hormones that make the brain less receptive to learning...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDchoice said:


> "The fact that he nipped when he thought he could get away with it, when the kid walked away is what I'd say shows the dog was tolerating and uncomfortable the whole time. Loading up, and then it came out, at that moment when the kid turned away."
> 
> Hmmm, interesting...
> the WHY is after all important, because the WHY leads to how to manage...
> ...


Thought I would jump in and comment on a couple of things.
Your GSD is not and never will be a Great Dane. I know. I had one as well. Totally different mindsets, totally different objectives. My Dane never met a stranger, everyone was her best friend. She would stand at corners waiting to cross the street with me and if the person next to us had a free hand she would give it a little nudge to encourage petting. Amazing dogs, truly gentle giants. Takes a bit of adjusting to deal with a somewhat aloof, vigilant GSD after living with a Dane. Never mind that Danes are the ultimate rainy day watching movies hanging out on the couch with a blanket dogs.

Kids are my line in the sand when it comes to dogs. Bud was not a fan and was kenneled or crated when kids were around. It was clear early on that he was uncomfortable so I simply stopped interaction. I don't know if your dog was being a brat or if he was upset, neither is acceptable. Correction absolutely, but I wouldn't be letting strangers and especially children approach or touch. At least not for a while. As was mentioned even a scratch could cause a problem legally speaking. I don't generally let people pet my dogs, I don't much like people though.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Tim, I have to ask... have you ever had a genetically fearful dog? A dog with weak nerves? I understand where you’re coming from with your train of thought, I really do. But you cannot change a dog’s genetics.


I have worked with many dogs that were genetically fearful, but no I've never owned one. In my post I thought I made it abundantly clear that nerves can be strengthened only to the degree allowed by the dog's genetics, so on this last point we agree totally.



GypsyGhost said:


> Positive punishment works well if the dog is just being a brat. But positive punishment is not always an effective course of action for a truly fearful dog.


Again, I don't disagree, nor did I in my post. I don't think any punishment as a "course of action" is a viable plan in any case. You can't correct a dog's nerves, nor can you punish them for being afraid. But it's also not possible to extinguish undesirable behavior without some punishment, positive or negative. Somehow the dog has to learn that the behavior isn't going to get them a desired result. 



GypsyGhost said:


> Setting them up for success by preventing them from having the opportunity to make bad decisions in the first place (yes, by letting them be a “not for petting” kind of dog) doesn’t mean they will be relegated to the backyard, left to languish and be forgotten. Is this kind of dog ideal for the average family with kids? Probably not. But careful management doesn’t have to mean the dog is forgotten.


Again, everyone who has posted in this thread agrees on this point. The OP needs to limit the dog's exposure for the time being to prevent bites. But, while it doesn't have to mean the dog is forgotten, if it's a forever situation more often than not it does end up that way. I have simply been trying to point out that it's not the goal, it's an interim solution that when coupled with effective training can have very good results. So it doesn't have to be a life sentence!



GypsyGhost said:


> Now, I don’t know for sure where this dog’s behavior came from. None of us do. We can make guesses. But none of us were there. It sounds like an insecure dog to me. And insecure dogs require management. Confidence building is great, but that only goes as far as genetics will allow. You can hide weak nerves with training, but you can’t train weak nerves out of a dog.


You're absolutely right on this, we don't know where the behavior comes from for sure. But I did review what the OP said about his dog in previous posts. And honestly, that's what led me to believe that this was more of a bratty behavior. While a cheap shot like snapping at a kid when he's leaving is a weak nerved move, at least in my experience dogs that have that weak of nerves are usually more skittish and cowardly and cowering in general. This dog doesn't present itself that way, at least as described by the OP.

A couple quotes from a previous thread:



> So far, I haven't seen any issues with kids - at my daughter's birthday party, he was surrounded by girls who wanted to pet him, and he kind of melted onto the floor and laid down on his side in a circle of adoring girls.
> 
> Visiting kids can pet him and he will lay down on his side and bliss out.*
> 
> Re kneeling- typically the kids start petting Rumo and he will "melt" into a down position, then tip over onto his side and lay there. Sometimes he even falls asleep. They usually sit/kneel around him and pet him and chat, then they lose interest and go do other things.


Doesn't fit with the genetically nervy and overwhelmed scenario very well does it? Granted these all came from a single thread, but I have never seen a truly genetically weak dog act only selectively nervy, the nervyness is always more across the board. That doesn't mean this couldn't happen, just that in my mind it's much less likely. 




GypsyGhost said:


> To the OP, I would recommend bringing in a good trainer that is experienced with GSDs/working dogs and see what they think and recommend. In the meantime, I have to agree with the others here who have said to not allow kids/strangers to pet this dog right now. There’s no shame in not allowing a dog to be community property.


Virtually all of us have given the same advice here. Don't let kids or others pet the dog for now. What @GypsyGhost suggests about working with an experienced GSD trainer is GREAT advice, and surprisingly missing from this thread until now. IME with all but the most incredibly weak nerved dogs, training can resolve this issue in time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my thing: in order to correct a dog for snapping at a child, the dog has to snap at a child.
> ...


Well...i will just leave it at this, the kind of positive punishment most pet people 
Do: yank back and yell, maybe an extra leash pop, comes at the very end of the whole chain, and tends to be too little, too late, wrong type, wrong time, and is either totally ineffective or mostly.

The bottom line for me though, is that if a dog wants to bite a kid, in order to truly address the problem and do repititions, you have to expose the dog to kids and lots of them. Which just isn't something I would do.

You say limiting the dog's exposure to kids is an interim solution, not an end goal. I guess I disagree. 

You try to expose the dog to strange kids intelligently and if you make a mistake, some kid sneaks up behind you and hugs the dog, maybe someone's kid gets bit. I just don't see an ethical way to practice. Again, whose kids??

It is my impression that if this dog had been kept from being petted by so many different people and kids when it was uncomfortable, this snap never would have happened and it would not be a thing the dog had ever had to resort to.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well...i will just leave it at this, the kind of positive punishment most pet people
> Do: yank back and yell, maybe an extra leash pop, comes at the very end of the whole chain, and tends to be too little, too late, wrong type, wrong time, and is either totally ineffective or mostly.
> 
> The bottom line for me though, is that if a dog wants to bite a kid, in order to truly address the problem and do repititions, you have to expose the dog to kids and lots of them. Which just isn't something I would do.
> ...


Well said and I very much agree.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Final comment to the OP for clarification: It often takes an older rescue dog as much as 3 months to acclimate and show his true behavior. So it's likely these new things you're seeing are the dog's true self, not new behaviors for him. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well...i will just leave it at this, the kind of positive punishment most pet people
> Do: yank back and yell, maybe an extra leash pop, comes at the very end of the whole chain, and tends to be too little, too late, wrong type, wrong time, and is either totally ineffective or mostly.


 @Thecowboysgirl is absolutely right here, and this is why people, myself included, recommend working with an experienced and balanced GSD trainer. Most people don't have the experience or the stomach for the kind of correction needed here. So read her description carefully. If a yank and a yell is what you were picturing as a severe correction, hire a professional to help you! It's been mentioned before, but it's worth mentioning again, timing and severity are important. A poorly timed or insufficient correction won't help, and can actually make things worse. So if you have any doubts or misgivings, definitely hire a good, balanced trainer to help you. Ideally through training this would never be needed but you should be prepared if the need arises. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> The bottom line for me though, is that if a dog wants to bite a kid, in order to truly address the problem and do repititions, you have to expose the dog to kids and lots of them. Which just isn't something I would do.
> 
> You say limiting the dog's exposure to kids is an interim solution, not an end goal. I guess I disagree.
> 
> You try to expose the dog to strange kids intelligently and if you make a mistake, some kid sneaks up behind you and hugs the dog, maybe someone's kid gets bit. I just don't see an ethical way to practice. Again, whose kids??


DO NOT attempt to do any training or proofing using kids! The training I was referring to is strong obedience and impulse control (sitting and waiting for a release before going out the door or leaving the car or eating; you can also use treats placed on the floor in front of the dog and having him wait for a release to get them, or if your dog likes fetch have him sit and wait while you throw the ball then release him to get it, the goal is for him to learn to control himself, but it should be fun too!). 

Teaching him to avoid instead of snapping at things is a little trickier, so you'll probably want to work with a trainer on that as well. Essentially, it's done using objects your dog feels a little threatened by (not kids!). You want him to learn that moving away is his best option using lavish praise and treats when he makes the right choice.
And use a command, so that you can verbally assist him in making the right choice in other circumstances. This is the part where really learning to read the dog is essential. It's not rocket science though, and a good trainer can really help with this.

I have a ZERO tolerance for dogs showing aggression toward children for ANY reason. But I personally owned 2 dogs that needed to be schooled on that point, and have worked with many others. I've only seen a handful that didn't become trustworthy around kids through training, and 2 of those were so genetically nervous they needed to be medicated in order to cope with life. The great thing for you is that this happened without the child actually getting bit! Please be careful and keep it that way! It won't happen overnight, but your dog seems like a good candidate, so work with him! Good Luck!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, thanks for all the analysis/experience!
I guess it's hard to figure out a dog's behavior "long-distance" over the internet!
I'll provide a little more info:

ON TEMPERAMENT/NERVES?
When we are walking in the neighborhood, neighbors comment on how calm he is. He walks calmly beside or ahead of me on a loose leash, in a straight line. He usually has his tail up (but he's part husky) and he lifts head/pricks ears at sight of other people or dogs. At obedience class, he was famous for falling asleep on his mat (in dead dog position, legs outstretched) while the teacher was talking! We walk by buses discharging people, snowplows, popping HVAC units (I jumped, he didn't), lunging growling dogs, and he is fine. My daughter's friend was over all weekend working on a Science project, and he sniffed her a couple times and then hung out with us in the living room. Between our walks, he spends a lot of time napping. He never barks - only if there's somebody new at the door, or somebody in street outside our yard. When he first came for his home visit, he sniffed around a bit, met us, then laid down for a nap...his calmness is actually what drew me to him - because I work from home, I was looking for a mellow kind of dog. 

ON BEHAVIOR AT HOME: 
Rumo has picked me as "The One". He will get up from a deep sleep to follow me from room to room. At a hint of displeasure in my voice, his ears will go back and he looks worried. Obedience teacher commented that he is strongly bonded to me. Sometimes I crouch down in front of him and we touch noses and sniff eachother and bump our heads together... I handle his chewies, his toys, balls, bed, his food/water bowls, no issue. My daughter's friend was over a lot this weekend (science project) and he sniffed her a few times, then laid down near us. She said Hello to him, but didn't really pet him (they were busy building a contraption).


MORE HISTORY
His foster mom had kids and thought he was good with kids. So far, he's been good with my kids.


BAD BEHAVIOR HISTORY:
4 growls and 1 growl+nip have all had two factors:
1. A Stranger
2. Petting his head


THE NIP
I will say that to my eye, it fell more in the category of "bad manners" then aggression. The kind of nip is like, hmmm, your dog is laying on her side and you are playing with her, and she nips at your hand. Or, you are brushing a horse and you hit a bad spot and they swing their head around and make a little nipping motion. Didn't seem like a nip with intent to bite...more like a nip of annoyance. 


MY OWN GUESS
My guess is that he is basically a nice dog, but has had a rough past. 
He does not like to be touched on the head by strangers - this is his quirk/ trigger. (They told me every rescue dog has quirks?)
We will avoid this as much as possible.


WHAT TO DO
The problem is, what to do if the trigger happens again!!?
For this, I may need to ask a trainer. My friend knows one who is working with her dog (he's dog-aggressive) so I could try asking him about it. I agree that I do not know how to correct a dog at the right instant, or how to do it! So far I only discipline him the way I disciplined my kids - mad face & mad voice.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Actually I think I will mention the incidents to his foster mom...I didn't want to bug her (she is busy and always has many dogs in her home!) and I didn't want her to worry, but it seems that the forum is taking this seriously, so maybe I will mention to her and see what she recommends. She has kids, and she had Rumo at home with them.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

GSDchoice said:


> Wow, thanks for all the analysis/experience!
> Sometimes I crouch down in front of him and we touch noses and sniff eachother and bump our heads together... .


PS 
Guess that for the sake of forum, I will add disclaimer, don't try this with strange or hyper dogs...
Rumo started this habit when I was crouched down, tying my sneaker laces before a walk. 
He came over and touched noses with me. I felt honored.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

GSDchoice said:


> BAD BEHAVIOR HISTORY:
> 4 growls and 1 growl+nip have all had two factors:
> 1. A Stranger
> 2. Petting his head


This may come off as sarcastic, I honestly do not mean it that way. This is the relevant part of your post above. Just don't let strangers pet him. Given his breed it is not necessary that he is super approachable. I mean, it isn't like you were going for therapy dog or anything like that. Is it important to you that you have a friendly approachable affable dog that accepts strangers eagerly or even readily? 

He is good with your kids and acceptable though not eager towards friends you invite into the house. That sounds normal GSD, and that is great. That bit right there would keep me happy.

The nipping strangers after they turn their back may be based in fear, anxiety, bad nerves, or just being uncomfortable with such overtures (petting a dog on a head is a "familiar with the dog" thing to do IMO. I do not pet dogs I meet on the head). 

I guess what I am trying to say is I cast this in the same category as "hey doc it hurts when I do that" and the doc says "so stop doing that"

4 months isn't a long time for a rescue. I would just focus on continuing the good bond with immediate family members and inner circle friends. If people ask to pet him just politely say "no, sorry, he is being trained"


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> My daughter's friend was over a lot this weekend (science project) and he sniffed her a few times, then laid down near us. She said Hello to him, but didn't really pet him (they were busy building a contraption).


I would caution you also about being this relaxed with this dog around children other than your own, regardless of whether the "nip" did or did not seem aggressive to you! Until you're sure he's cured of this nippy behavior, make sure you're closely supervising any and all contact with any kids such that you're in a position to prevent a bite should he decide to do it again!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> I would caution you also about being this relaxed with this dog around children other than your own, regardless of whether the "nip" did or did not seem aggressive to you! Until you're sure he's cured of this nippy behavior, make sure you're closely supervising any and all contact with any kids such that you're in a position to prevent a bite should he decide to do it again!


Yep, he sniffed the friend when she entered the house (I opened the door and was standing there) and then we took him to the living room and gated him with us, while kids worked in the kitchen. This is our new policy. I'll keep him with me in the room I'm in.

Yep, previous policy was "No Petting On Head by Strangers When He Is Laying Down" - new policy is "No Petting by Strangers". 
He will still go out and about in the world with us, though - we will just keep our distance.

Foster mom said that when she first got him, he was "headshy", but in his time with them, it seemed that he had gotten over it?
I think she walked him less (he played in yard with other dogs) so he probably met fewer strangers. 

If there are any more incidents, we'll go see my friend's trainer. If I need to learn how to "correct" at just the right instant, then I need help - I have no idea what that instant would be. 

Have read every reply and thought about it...
At least now I have a "Plan of Action" - much better than worrying and wondering what to do!

Ending on Positive Note: 
At his first vet visit (one week in) he was a terror. Vet couldn't get a good exam in. Second vet visit (few weeks ago), I led him onto the scale. He stood on the scale while I said, "Wait.wait." When vet tech said she got the reading, I said "OK" and he walked calmly off the scale. When they came back from the back, they said he was good. So, maybe I don't notice any daily changes, but I did notice the difference in his vet visits! There is hope... 

Leaving you with a pic of "shepsky in the snow".


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

He sure is pretty! Thanks for the update...keep us posted!


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

He is beautiful! You're on the track, just enjoy your dog and enjoy training. Remember you dont have to let strangers try to be his buddy anymore than you have to with your kids. (I hate when people ruffle a kid's hair when they dont know them lol) That is great progress at the vet! Keep at it and way to go rescuing a beautiful boy.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GSDchoice said:


> Wow, thanks for all the analysis/experience!
> I guess it's hard to figure out a dog's behavior "long-distance" over the internet!
> I'll provide a little more info:
> 
> ...


My only last thoughts are-- don't romanticize it and don't get too caught up in "oh he was abused". It doesn't really matter, and sometimes thinking a dog was abused puts you into the wrong mind set to deal with it properly. He may very well have never been abused. My younger dog does not care for over the head petting and he certainly has had a posh and privileged life. He just isn't as comfortable with strangers as my other dog-- either because she lived in a big city growing up and was way better socialized than him growing up in the middle of nowhere and us having to get involved in dog sports just to find more strangers to expose him to..or it's just their genetic blueprint for who they are to start with. It doesn't matter. He does not care to be groped by random people he does not know and I do not expect him to be.

If your dog was in my house-- I would not be looking for opportunities to correct him, I would be doing confidence building and protecting his personal space while building positive association to nearby strangers who DON'T try to approach him. I don't suppose anyone thought to mention to give him a two week shut down when you brought him home? It might not be a bad idea to do one now and sort of start over.

Rescues can take a long time to come out of their shell and don't always show all their personality and behavior until some time has passed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I would caution you also about being this relaxed with this dog around children other than your own, regardless of whether the "nip" did or did not seem aggressive to you! Until you're sure he's cured of this nippy behavior, make sure you're closely supervising any and all contact with any kids such that you're in a position to prevent a bite should he decide to do it again!


I agree.

We adopted an adult who in his first two weeks, snapped at me, growled at my husband, and growled at my daughter who hugged him while he was chewing a bone (and as it turns out resource guarding was his biggest thing)

We decided to keep him despite all that...which may have been stupid, and I'll be the first to admit that, but the truth about MY dog was that he really did not want any trouble and if you gave him the slightest opportunity to avoid confrontation he would. But he also went on lock down for a long time, no contact with my kids unless I was right there, they had absolutely nothing to do with him when it came to any resource--that was all me. They were 9 & 12 and able to understand and follow directions and they knew it was important they do exactly as they were told for this to work out. we had a family meeting about the lengths we would all have to go to if we were going to make it work with this dog and we all, kids included, agreed we were willing. For the kids that meant following very strict rules about how and when they interacted with him, and in the beginning he had nothing to do with their friends, he was with me or put away when friends came over. I can't remember how long exactly that went on for. Probably nearly a year when I began to allow him controlled, leashed contact with other kids again to see how it went. 

As if turned out, my dog was actually super super trustworthy with kids except for the resource guarding--he had no issues with anything else with kids--some with adults handling him in ways he felt were unfair or going to cause pain, but not kids, and not accidents. For instance a mover stepped on his foot and he yelped but did not retaliate or hold it against the guy. 

The more I worked with the dog the more I saw the marshmallow he was inside and that he really really didn't want conflict, and when I offered him some options and some training to be a different way he tried very hard to learn and change. He died of cancer as a not quite as old as we would have hoped old much loved family pet. He never bit anyone. Some years into it he could be found in a girlie pile on the couch during the kids sleep overs with a you know what eating grin on his face--he REALLY loved those pretty girls who would rub his belly and tell him how nice he was.

But the thing was in the beginning he was just a big dog growling at people and if they do that I take them at their word and assume they mean business until they show me otherwise--


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Thanks for inspiring story about living with an adult rescue dog that seemed "difficult"! 

Just wanted to update and say that things are quiet here and management is going well.

On walks, we just keep our distance and if I don't make eye contact with the person, they never come over and ask to pet the dog.
At home with kids over, I either gate him in the living room or the office with me, depending on if I am working or we are just relaxing.
He is generally quiet - relaxed and smiley, and has learned the household routine.

I have observed him when walking by people, and he will often pause and do a thorough air sniff** when they walk by (because I don't let him get close). 
So my guess is that he seemed very interested in that boy - not for social reasons, but because he probably wanted to smell & inspect this person walking in street in front of our house!
Not because he wanted any attention/petting...

_**Incidentally about the sniffing...I went out to the dentist, so my husband took him out for his walk. He reported that Rumo cast about in the front yard until he found my "trail" and followed my trail to the curb where the car had been parked...then he stood there sniffing the air, but lost my scent (of course, because I got into the car there). He has also tracked all kinds of critters, following their trail even across parking lots, and flushed them out from the bushes. What an amazing sense of smell these dogs have!!_


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Teach him to track if you want a fun hobby!

Also, my younger dog has a nose for days and he is very motivated to try and sniff people but he would definitely prefer they didn't pet him. 

Him trying to get a good whiff could be mistaken for interest in social interaction with the person for sure, but that's not what it is.


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