# Hi Everyone! I really need help! (2 dogs w/aggression)



## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

Hello everyone. My name is David and I am the owner of two beautiful German Shepards, Blitz and Sasha. Blitz is male and Sasha is female. They are both black and tan, papered, 3 year olds. I am writing this with much pain in my heart as I have to make a decision about Blitz, who is behaving aggressively. This weekend my wife and I rented a dog friendly cabin with the plan to hike and snowshoe with our pups as we often do. After a morning hike, we arrived back to the cabin and went outside to the little fenced yard. We did not know there was a maintenance staffer in the yard. The dogs saw him first. Blitz bit him once on the leg and then jumped up and bit his arm before my wife had the chance to control the dogs. The maintenance staff was not badly hurt, but did have one puncture that broke the skin. Of course, the incident required the manager of the cabins to call the police to file a report. Blitz is currently quarantined for 10 days as this is the requirement by the city. A court date is set in the beginning of March. 

Unfortunately, this was not the first time Blitz has shown aggression. A little more than a year ago, Blitz and Sasha were playing off leash when a jogger went running by. The jogger went to pet Sasha, and Blitz interpreted that as a threat. He bit the jogger once on the arm. A police report was filed and he was quarantined for 10 days. That was the first incident of this nature. Since that time we have been very cautious with Blitz: we take the time to introduce him to visitors, he is on a leash whenever he is in a non-enclosed space, and we have worked very hard on training him. Aggressive behavior is not something that we take lightly. Unfortunately, as the aforementioned incident suggests, he still needs more work. He needs someone with the time and understanding of how to address aggressive behavior that we don’t have. 

We have owned Blitz since he was four months old. He has never been maltreated nor trained to be aggressive. We make sure he gets plenty of physical exercise, good nutrition, and play time. He is a very happy boy who is very obedient, smart, and loving. He aced his obedience programs and has certificates to prove it. Blitz is papered from a reputable breeder and all his vaccines are up to date. His aggression obviously stems from protection - though it is misplaced. 

My wife and I are both full time students. We do not have the finances, the time, or the skill to provide Blitz the training he required. My wife and I agreed after the first incident that we would continue to work with him and take necessary precautions. We have tried to the best of our abilities and failed. Now, we have come to the conclusion that we can not keep him. The last thing we want to do is euthanasia. He just needs a home that understands how to work on aggressive behavior. We are actively pursuing adoption and I am asking for your help. Any suggestions you can give us would be much appreciated. The majority of the rescues will not take him since he did bite someone. I am willing to drive him anywhere in the United States and upon request would be more than happy to provide paperwork, pictures, and video of our beautiful GSD. 
Please see my pictures!

Thank you in advance for any help and suggestions,
David


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

First... how did he get close enough to bite the maintenance guy? I'm not really asking, more so telling you that you obviously slipped up on controlling him there... that should never have happened. (p.s., the dogs shouldn't be the first ones out the door)

His aggression is coming from fear. Blitz is clearly operating in defensive drive in both those cases, and its not out of some sense of over-protection. You absolutely do have the time to fix the issue and you are certainly capable of addressing it yourself. I run two companies of which one I also fill a full time position at, studying for a captains test, am in grad school full time, and I still find time to train my dogs for a few minutes every day, and twice a week at a facility. Its not easy... I'm training my dogs thursday nights from 9pm to midnight... but if I can find the time (for 2 dogs mind you), you can too. You probably just need some help in understanding your dog better. He needs you to work on building his confidence up. Confident dogs do not bite people... they are calm, cool, collected, and clear headed. They can understand what is a real threat, and what is not. A jogger approaching with an offer of a pet on the head is not a threat. Remember that when a dog is overloaded with stress it only has a few ways to react such as avoidance, submission, fight or flight. You know which one your dog has chosen as it has been very effective for him so far. There are a large variety of techniques for building up a dogs confidence and getting him out of defensive drive and into prey drive, bringing his level of stress down (and you are probably currently adding to his stress when you begin "stress loading" in anticipation of a problem when he starts getting antsy at someone and inadvertently accelerating his stress loading), etc.

You need to proceed *extremely* carefully as someone is going to get hurt, and you are very close to losing your dog to the the authorities. The dog really doesn't need to end up in another home that doesn't know how to deal with the issue. Unfortunately if you offload the problem its probably not going to end well for him. 

Hope the advice is useful, though it is undoubtedly not what you wanted to hear


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

Since this is his second offense, I would strongly look into speaking with GSD rescues around your state or nearby states. He needs to be relocated with a professional ONLY!!! This is if he is granted that liberty. Second offense biters, unfortunately, are rarely given the opportunity to be rehomed; though, if you can possibly find a rescue group that can take him in, maybe the court will give him a second chance. Its asking a lot for someone to take in a fear aggressive dog, but its not impossible. I wish you and your family the best.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I really think the best thing for HIM, is to remain with you, and you put in the time & effort & research to correct the problem. Professionals are likely not going to be very interested in taking in a dog that needs work to get him back to level unless their sole intention is to fix him and re-home him... which is a lot of effort from a stranger... and quite simply the vast majority of people are not knowledgable enough to fix the issue


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

Hi David,

I live in the sticks of East Tennessee and would be happy to give Blitz a new home. I am retired and have the time and patience to work with him.

I have a 2 year old female German Shepherd dog and have been looking for a playmate for her. Thru a dog trainer she has had basic obedience training and I have read a few books on dog training, so I have a good idea of how to work with him. 

I purchased 'Elly May' thru Sequoyah German Shepherds http://sequoyah-german-shepherds.com/ and have had her back there. Tho she only knows me on a limited basis, I am sure the owner (who is her Vet) would give me a referance. I am also sure she would help me with Blitz, since she gives free training lessons to people who have purchased their dogs thru her.

I am from the City of Philadelphia and living in the country is still new to me. 'Elly' is a very good dog, however her 'alarming response' is not as good as I would like. A second set of ear would really help. I owne 2+ acres and was planing on putting up a small fenced in area, as soon as I found another German Shepherd. I will give him a loving / safe, abuse free home and please note, I do not plan on breeding them.

If you are close by and think we could work something out, please let me know. You may reach me at [email protected]

Thanks, The Packman

After thought: I'm on my 15 year of soberity...I tell that to anyone I can


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Welcome to the board. Blitz is not being protective, as already mentioned, he is fear aggressive and it is a very serious thing. Blitz should NEVER be allowed to be off-leash even in an enclosed area because, as you have realized now, you never know when someone is going to be walking in.
Passing "your problem" on to someone else is NOT the answer. No rescue will take him having two bite history. And you will still be liable even if you pass him on to someone else.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Welcome to the board, David. As others have mentioned, he is fear aggressive. This can absolutely be worked out with some education for you and your wife. He may never be cured of his fearfulness of strangers but he can certainly be managed.



RogueRed26 said:


> Since this is his second offense, I would strongly look into speaking with GSD rescues around your state or nearby states. He needs to be relocated with a professional ONLY!!!


A rescue is not an option is this case. I don't know of a single rescue that would be able to take on this kind of liability. I do agree with the second sentence that if you are set on placing him, it needs to be with a professional that can provide you with references on being able to deal with a dog that has a bite history.

I would be very cautious about anyone offering to take Blitz knowing his bite history. I would definitely get references (both personal and a vet) and would want to know how they think they can help him.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

The Packman said:


> Hi David,
> 
> I live in the sticks of East Tennessee and would be happy to give Blitz a new home. I am retired and have the time and patience to work with him.
> 
> ...


While its very noble of you, I think you may have the exact same issues and struggles, and with a fear aggressive dog this will go bad for an innocent bystander. He would already have much higher stress being in a new place with new dogs and a new handler


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The Packman said:


> After thought: I'm on my 15 year of soberity...I tell that to anyone I can


Congratulations on that huge achievement!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Wait... the title changed. Do BOTH dogs have aggression issues?


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> Wait... the title changed. Do BOTH dogs have aggression issues?


Ok- thank you for posting that. I thought I was losing it! Last night it didn't say 2 dogs!


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

No only Blitz! I'm not sure who changed the title?????


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

Why would an Admin change the title of my post? I am new with forums but that seems strange....Can I edit this? Sasha does not have aggression issues. Only Blitz.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

I understand everything you are going through. My boy Victor is extremely people aggressive. He is not fear aggressive like yours though. His aggression was passed to him through his bloodline. 

It is a daily battle with these type of dogs. You can't put them into social settings like other dogs. They have to be managed carefully. You can't rehome your boy because you don't know if he is going to harm someone in the long run. I don't know about your boy, but mine does not deal with stress/new surroundings well and I can imagine changing owners will be too stressful for him. No rescue is going to take your dog because he is a liability. 

My Victor can't be rehomed. He has bitten in the past. He has not gotten the chance to bite again so far that he has been with us. He either stays here with us or he has to be put down. I can't take the chance that he will hurt someone if I rehome him. I am not saying to give up on your boy there are many things you can try to manage him. I am currently trying products recommended to me on my thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../147312-progess-victor-people-aggressive.html

You can read through it to get some ideas. Good luck!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I understand everything you are going through. My boy Victor is extremely people aggressive. He is not fear aggressive like yours though. His aggression was passed to him through his bloodline.
> 
> It is a daily battle with these type of dogs. You can't put them into social settings like other dogs. They have to be managed carefully. You can't rehome your boy because you don't know if he is going to harm someone in the long run. I don't know about your boy, but mine does not deal with stress/new surroundings well and I can imagine changing owners will be too stressful for him. No rescue is going to take your dog because he is a liability.
> 
> ...


We all want to believe that our dog is just exhibiting his natural tendencies, but a dog that is aggressive to strangers where it is not appropriate *especially* if they have ever bitten someone that wasn't aggressive to them, is absolutely fear aggression. If you look at any number of professionally worked bite dogs, military dogs, etc, they are calm and non-threatened by random people. Unless it is infact YOU that are scared or suffer anxiety around strangers and the dog is playing off your body language


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> We all want to believe that our dog is just exhibiting his natural tendencies, but a dog that is aggressive to strangers where it is not appropriate *especially* if they have ever bitten someone that wasn't aggressive to them, is absolutely fear aggression.


Hunter, you are missing a bit of back story in this case. Victor's parents were aggressive and his sibling (owner is also on this board) is aggressive. In this case it is genetic and started young - a bad breeding plain and simple. The poster is not delusioned into thinking that he is just doing as dogs do and wasn't making excuses for his aggression, she is working with him with the resources she has available. 

(and I swear I am not following you from thread to thread...)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Come on, Jamie! You are a stalker...we know you are! But everyone should have someone to follow them home, sift thru their trash, and make them feel special! :rofl:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Hunter, you are missing a bit of back story in this case. Victor's parents were aggressive and his sibling (owner is also on this board) is aggressive. In this case it is genetic and started young - a bad breeding plain and simple. The poster is not delusioned into thinking that he is just doing as dogs do and wasn't making excuses for his aggression, she is working with him with the resources she has available.
> 
> (and I swear I am not following you from thread to thread...)


I post alot and have strong opinions so I don't mind a little push back  I have high confidence

Obviously my responses are made soley on whatever I'm responding to, so I can accept that that is probably the case. I can't help to have a knee-jerk reaction to anytime people say "oh he's just protective" or such, either making an excuse or totally unaware of whats really going on. Because of the consequences of people who don't realize it and fix it effect all of us, and if I lose my GSDs because of some stupid breed legislation because a thousand idiots couldn't responsibly own their dogs, I'll be rather upset

I always take the time to try to address the problem when I see it. 90% of the time I'm spot on, but of course there are cases (like above) where I'm wrong. Can't be right all the time  Also, I just have to constantly fight the battle with ignorant people (not here) who find out my dogs do a lot of bite-work and are first and foremost acquired for PPD duties, who assume that a dog that knows how to bite is aggressive or dangerous. Its counter intuitive to the average person, but a well trained schutzhund or ppd dog is much more predictable and safe around people than a "oh he's just naturally protective is all" dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

At any rate, as of this morning I'm a lifetime member so you're all stuck with me now


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I can't help to have a knee-jerk reaction to anytime people say "oh he's just protective" or such, either making an excuse or totally unaware of whats really going on.


That really gets under my skin as well. Truthfully, I believe very few dogs are being protective especially before maturity. I agree that inappropriate aggression is generally fear. (I think that is from another thread) So far, I've like what you have posted.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> That really gets under my skin as well. Truthfully, I believe very few dogs are being protective especially before maturity. I agree that inappropriate aggression is generally fear. (I think that is from another thread) So far, I've like what you have posted.


Thanks 

The rule of thumb is that a dog is not going to bite someone attacking you unless you have trained this in and it takes a lot of effort. Even schutzhund dogs will not bite (there's no sleeve, and that sleeve was the object of their attention) Otherwise, 99% of dogs will bark up a storm and get all worked up, but not actually do anything. Most dogs, of course, will not hesitate to bite to defend themselves, which is where fear biting is coming from. This is natural.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

disconnected111 said:


> He needs someone with the time and understanding of how to address aggressive behavior that we don’t have....
> 
> My wife and I are both full time students. We do not have the finances, the time, or the skill to provide Blitz the training he required.....
> 
> We have tried to the best of our abilities and failed. Now, we have come to the conclusion that we can not keep him....


I am sorry, it's a tough decision. Before you turn him over to another owner or rescue, is their someone in your area who can evaluate him for you? It might be easier to place him if you knew exactly what you're dealing with, fear or aggression.


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

*First out....*

I never let my dogs enter in or out of the house in front of me. In this situation I was not going out but was letting the dogs out. I opened the door and gave them the go ahead. Then they went out into the little fenced-in yard. There is a hot tub in the back fenced area and the guy was ducked down behind it cleaning the filter. I did not see him. He startled Blitz and in turn was bit. The fence had a gate that was accessible from the outside which i had no idea of. You cannot see the latch from inside. I completely agree with you though that this has everything to do with our training of the dogs. I do not blame anyone else but myself for what happened.



hunterisgreat said:


> First... how did he get close enough to bite the maintenance guy? I'm not really asking, more so telling you that you obviously slipped up on controlling him there... that should never have happened. (p.s., the dogs shouldn't be the first ones out the door)


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

*Advice*



hunterisgreat said:


> First... how did he get close enough to bite the maintenance guy? I'm not really asking, more so telling you that you obviously slipped up on controlling him there... that should never have happened. (p.s., the dogs shouldn't be the first ones out the door)
> 
> His aggression is coming from fear. Blitz is clearly operating in defensive drive in both those cases, and its not out of some sense of over-protection. You absolutely do have the time to fix the issue and you are certainly capable of addressing it yourself. I run two companies of which one I also fill a full time position at, studying for a captains test, am in grad school full time, and I still find time to train my dogs for a few minutes every day, and twice a week at a facility. Its not easy... I'm training my dogs thursday nights from 9pm to midnight... but if I can find the time (for 2 dogs mind you), you can too. You probably just need some help in understanding your dog better. He needs you to work on building his confidence up. Confident dogs do not bite people... they are calm, cool, collected, and clear headed. They can understand what is a real threat, and what is not. A jogger approaching with an offer of a pet on the head is not a threat. Remember that when a dog is overloaded with stress it only has a few ways to react such as avoidance, submission, fight or flight. You know which one your dog has chosen as it has been very effective for him so far. There are a large variety of techniques for building up a dogs confidence and getting him out of defensive drive and into prey drive, bringing his level of stress down (and you are probably currently adding to his stress when you begin "stress loading" in anticipation of a problem when he starts getting antsy at someone and inadvertently accelerating his stress loading), etc.
> 
> ...


I never let my dogs enter in or out of the house in front of me. In this situation I was not going out but was letting the dogs out. I opened the door and gave them the go ahead. Then they went out into the little fenced-in yard. There is a hot tub in the back fenced area and the guy was ducked down behind it cleaning the filter. I did not see him. He startled Blitz and in turn was bit. The fence had a gate that was accessible from the outside which i had no idea of. You cannot see the latch from inside. I completely agree with you though that this has everything to do with our training of the dogs. I do not blame anyone else but myself for what happened.....and yes your advice is very helpful and much appreciated. Of course I don't want to hear that I am a bad dog owner....but I cannot deny that this could have been prevented......it is my fault.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

disconnected111 said:


> I never let my dogs enter in or out of the house in front of me. In this situation I was not going out but was letting the dogs out. I opened the door and gave them the go ahead. Then they went out into the little fenced-in yard. There is a hot tub in the back fenced area and the guy was ducked down behind it cleaning the filter. I did not see him. He startled Blitz and in turn was bit. The fence had a gate that was accessible from the outside which i had no idea of. You cannot see the latch from inside. I completely agree with you though that this has everything to do with our training of the dogs. I do not blame anyone else but myself for what happened.....and yes your advice is very helpful and much appreciated. Of course I don't want to hear that I am a bad dog owner....but I cannot deny that this could have been prevented......it is my fault.


You're not a bad dog owner, you are just naive or ignorant about what is happening here. No one is born knowing how humans work mentally, much less other species. Dog training is hard, and almost no one gets it perfect with the first dog, (or any dog later...) we just get better as we understand what it is the dog needs to learn.

In hindsight, I can find tons of things I did wrong with my dogs, and wish I had done differently. All I can do is assure I don't make the same mistakes again, and do better moving forward


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

I appreciate your straight forwardness. No need to sugarcoat, I need to hear the truth. I need to know my options and am in a situation where i can no longer mess around.



hunterisgreat said:


> I post alot and have strong opinions so I don't mind a little push back  I have high confidence
> 
> Obviously my responses are made soley on whatever I'm responding to, so I can accept that that is probably the case. I can't help to have a knee-jerk reaction to anytime people say "oh he's just protective" or such, either making an excuse or totally unaware of whats really going on. Because of the consequences of people who don't realize it and fix it effect all of us, and if I lose my GSDs because of some stupid breed legislation because a thousand idiots couldn't responsibly own their dogs, I'll be rather upset.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am sorry about this latest incident with your dog. I understand your frustration and your fear but keeping him and working with him is probably the best option you have. It's a challenge for sure but with the right training tools and resources you can do it! 

Most rescues that I know of cannot take a dog with a bite history. As you mentioned in your OP, it is a huge liability. I would not feel comfortable placing this dog with someone else unless they were a reputable trainer/behaviorist committed to rehabbing the dog and the dog were adopted out on a signed and detailed contract, etc. 

I myself rehabbed a fear aggressive dog (Basu, who I adopted at age 4.5 and who was wonderful with people he knew and all other animals) and it was full of challenges and life changes but I had no doubt he would have been pts had he ended up elsewhere. I do not regret having shared my life with him and like you, had no experience with fear aggressive dogs prior to adopting him. I learned a lot about dogs in the journey we took together and my own approach to training has changed considerably because of him. He improved a ton over the years but was never fully trustworthy in certain situations so he did always need to be closely managed. 

Is your dog muzzle trained? That is the place you need to begin. I would also get recommendations for a reputable, qualified behaviorist and have them help you come up with a plan to rehab your dog. 

Btw, I was a student and working full time when I had Basu. I also had another dog and a cat and foster dogs, from time to time.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I am sorry about this latest incident with your dog. I understand your frustration and your fear but keeping him and working with him is probably the best option you have. It's a challenge for sure but with the right training tools and resources you can do it!
> 
> Most rescues that I know of cannot take a dog with a bite history. As you mentioned in your OP, it is a huge liability. I would not feel comfortable placing this dog with someone else unless they were a reputable trainer/behaviorist committed to rehabbing the dog and the dog were adopted out on a signed and detailed contract, etc.
> 
> ...


That is a great point, and it might be time to consider a muzzle when there is the slightest possibility of a bite happening again... you CANNOT allow a third bite to occur


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

I very much appreciate the responses I have received. Lots of great information. At this point I feel that Blitz is a huge liability and I can't afford to take anymore chances. The work that I have done with him is obviously not enough or I am channeling my training in the wrong direction. I can't afford to make any more mistakes and either need to find someone who can work with him or I need to let him go. 

I have had one offer on here to take him. It sounds like a great situation for him (lots of land, and the handler is retired as well as an experienced dog owner). I know that a move will cause Blitz great stress. 

Where do I go from here?


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> That is a great point, and it might be time to consider a muzzle when there is the slightest possibility of a bite happening again... you CANNOT allow a third bite to occur


We do use a muzzle for him. Anytime we are in a situation that we are unsure of his response we muzzle him. He is never off his leash unless in a safe enclosed area. When we introduce him to new folks in the house he always wears his muzzle during the introduction. We could muzzle him at all times when out and about but my concern is the one time where we are un aware like the bite this weekend....I can't afford this to happen again. We could be sued....we may have a lawsuit pending now and just don't know it....


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm sorry this happened. I agree with the muzzle.

A dog like this needs 24/7 supervision , no rescue is going to take him with a bite history. To place him in a private home is also setting yourself up to be sued. 

While the offer on here was probably made in good faith, do you know the poster? I know he/she offered references, if your willing to drive him anywhere in the US and you have decided to place him with the poster who offered, I highly suggest you drive him there, check out references, and check out the home. 

It may be that Blitz will not like their existing dog, nor like the person, which is setting him up to bite or worse again.

In the end, sad for the dog


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree that I don't think your liability is going to be reduced by placing him in a new home. Unfortunately, the courts probably won't see your side of it either. Placing a dog that might bite is a huge concern for a rescue with a rock solid contract behind them yet alone a private individual doing it.

Can you detail what exactly you have done to try and fix the problem? A lot of people here are very experienced and if you write a novel about exactly what you have done they might have a lot of excellent (even more excellent!) suggestions.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

> ........ As others have mentioned, he is fear aggressive. .....................


Got a question!

What would be the difference between a "fear aggressivness" and a "protective" reaction in a case like this. I am assuming, of course, that aggresion can be caused by protectivness as well as fear.

Wouldn't a bite be the same result in either case - just a different cause? And how would an observer tell the difference?

I am assuming that there would be a big difference in the training required to address the dog's reaction in these two cases of cause for unwanted aggression????????


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Got a question!
> 
> What would be the difference between a "fear aggressivness" and a "protective" reaction in a case like this. I am assuming, of course, that aggresion can be caused by protectivness as well as fear.
> 
> ...


in a vacuum, a fear bite happens despite the victim not being a threat. A protective bite happens when say, the person represents a real danger. If a person ran up and kicked an otherwise not aggressive dog and got bitten, that is not a fear reaction


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

To the OP I don't have any advice. I hope you find a solution.

To others. I do not understand why the dog would still be the original owner's liability if he rehomed him with full disclosure and the other party accepted it, in writing.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Caledon said:


> To the OP I don't have any advice. I hope you find a solution.
> 
> To others. I do not understand why the dog would still be the original owner's liability if he rehomed him with full disclosure and the other party accepted it, in writing.


You're in Canada. Thats why you don't understand 

If you were in America, I'd sue you for saying that


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

Again, I appreciate everyones help and advice. My wife and I have come to the conclusion that rehabilitation is not an option. We can no longer afford to take the risk of keeping him here at home as the next time it may be a child or someone with a lawyer in the family that gets attacked. My wife is no longer confident that she can even walk him on a leash as I am also uncomfortable with the thought of another attack. We contacted the breeder during this whole ordeal and last night he sent an email back saying that he would rehome him. We are very fortunate to have such offers of help. I love my boy very much and this is probably one of the most painful things I have ever had to do, but I think it is the best. Blitz will definitely be emotionally distraught during the change but I believe this choice is better than euthanization. Any thoughts? Advice?


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

David...I should be sending this post by PM but since I am a newbie, I'd like everyone to read it, so you get can best the feedback.

First let me say I am glad you are considering me for adopting Blitz. If you decide to let me adopt Blitz, the first thing I would do is take him to my vet who I've already mentioned is also a dog trainer. So I learn the exact do's and dont's of properly transitioning him to his new home. As for references, I'm new to this area and don't know alot of people locally. However, I can put you in touch with friends from the Philadelpia area, that are Police Officers and who will vouch for my good character.

Let me say if you are far away I don't expect or want you to make a long trip here. I mentioned the area I live in with the hope that you are close by. If that is the case, you would be more than welcome to come by my home to help determine how you feel. You and your wife could talk it over and take the course that you think would be best you and Blitz. 

I want you to know 'Elly May' is more than a pet to us, she's a family member. (but she's not allowed to sit at the dinner table)


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

I know several people that have mentioned something about liability being an issue etc. I did some research and spoke to a family lawyer who said that the issue could easily be absolved through a written contract of responsibility. What I am concerned about is Blitz's level of stress etc....This is a change that will not be easy for him. I would def like to get to know you a little better before considering. Maybe you could start by sending pictures of your home, land, etc. Telling me about yourself and your family. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions as the we consider this further. I am also concerned and agree with several of the folks that posted responding to this, about the fact that Blitz most likely needs a professional to deal with his issues. Again...I am no expert here but don't want to jump into anything quite yet. I very much appreciate your offer and thanks for understanding that this is not an easy decision to make. 

Anyone like to add anything to this conversation please feel free.



The Packman said:


> David...I should be sending this post by PM but since I am a newbie, I'd like everyone to read it, so you get can best the feedback.
> 
> First let me say I am glad you are considering me for adopting Blitz. If you decide to let me adopt Blitz, the first thing I would do is take him to my vet who I've already mentioned is also a dog trainer. So I learn the exact do's and dont's of properly transitioning him to his new home. As for references, I'm new to this area and don't know alot of people locally. However, I can put you in touch with friends from the Philadelpia area, that are Police Officers and who will vouch for my good character.
> 
> ...


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

Is the breeder going to work on his aggression before rehoming him??


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes he specializes in working dogs and has an excellent reputation. The plan would be to re-integrate him into his pack and than work on his aggression.



shadow mum said:


> Is the breeder going to work on his aggression before rehoming him??


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> Thanks
> 
> The rule of thumb is that a dog is not going to bite someone attacking you unless you have trained this in and it takes a lot of effort. Even schutzhund dogs will not bite (there's no sleeve, and that sleeve was the object of their attention) Otherwise, 99% of dogs will bark up a storm and get all worked up, but not actually do anything. Most dogs, of course, will not hesitate to bite to defend themselves, which is where fear biting is coming from. This is natural.


That is a sad statement. I hope you do not do Schutzhund.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> That is a sad statement. I hope you do not do Schutzhund.


Yeah I do... Would you explain why that is a sad statement? Dismissing it with no explanation doesn't do anyone any good. Throwing out an insult is even less helpful. How about try something along the lines of: "I disagree with you. The above statement I believe is wrong because of X,Y, and Z" or "In my experience, all the schutzhund dogs I handle will bite the helper sleeve or no!" In which case, I really hope you don't do schutzhund


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Because I can't say it is right or wrong, as you said, based on your experience you may be right. I just find sad that a Schutzhund dog is not expected to bite someone on his property if there is no sleeve present. I know my current female will not, but that is one of the reasons I spayed her.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

As hard as it will be to give him up, I think returning him to the breeder who has experience will be the best for him.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> Because I can't say it is right or wrong, as you said, based on your experience you may be right. I just find sad that a Schutzhund dog is not expected to bite someone on his property if there is no sleeve present. I know my current female will not, but that is one of the reasons I spayed her.


It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Whether the dog is going to bite someone intruding is more a factor of that dog than the training. Schutzhund is a very specific set of activities and the dog isn't associating all the schutzhund work with this guy breaking into our territory.. and why should it? There is pretty much no link between a random guy on the property, and all the stuff you're training probably on a field somewhere else.

If you watch a schutzhund dog being transitioned to a ppd or police dog, alot of the work is disassociating the sleeve while keeping the drive and behaviours intact. I've seen handlers wear 2 sleeves and the second the dog is rewarded one he immediately resumes agitating with the second. The effect is the dog immediately spits the first sleeve and its after the second. This helps to "weaken" the position of the sleeve in his mind, and communicate that it is the helper we are biting, not a sleeve. at the end of the day though, schutzhund is a sport so I don't think its fair to expect a sport dog to be a working ppd/bite dog. however like real life schutzhund is meant to test and mimic, its still not real life. I believe schutzhund and real ppd work are very different things, despite seeming the same on the surface

You said "one of" the reasons, but I bet you could have fixed that one reason


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am wondering how fear is diagnosed as the motivator without observing the dog in action? This is something I want to learn how to do if it can be broken down simply for me.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Samba said:


> I am wondering how fear is diagnosed as the motivator without observing the dog in action? This is something I want to learn how to do if it can be broken down simply for me.


Well, it almost always is fear anyway. 

Outside of some medical reason, a dog would only bite something it perceived as a threat. Its not going to bite someone it thinks is going to treat them, right? So we can probably agree that if something is threatening you, you at least have some element of fear about it. A guy in a bar fight, despite all the machismo, still has fear in him. Then the question remains, was their a real and credible threat? Another human simply being present is not a credible threat. The fear is not warranted. A human with a bat, giving off body language that says he means to do harm is. A confident dog would only fear the real threat and might bite him. An unconfident dog would fear both and might bite both. The difference between fear-aggressive and "regular" is that the fear-aggressive dog's threshold for when he perceives a threat is much lower. If a dog is biting non-threats, he has too much fear, or a lack of confidence. Building confidence moves that threshold to the other end of the spectrum, so we can probably always recommend confidence building and only benefit the dog, and probably solve or better the issue.

With a PPD or police k9, we want that threshold farther than normal, so he is sound and under control even when he probably should be fearful. I don't want a PPD that is biting someone beating me to death because of fear, I want one biting him methodically because he knows we trained for this and this is how he is to react to this situation. If he's biting out of fear, I am probably not going to be able to get the dog off the aggressor when he stops beating me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hello everyone -- I am impressed with the good sense in the responses. I agree with Hunterisgreat. This is not balanced confidence . There was nothing extraordinary about the situation, no conflict , nothing that would cause arousal either way , meaning the dog was not threatened or even made socially uncomfortable . In the incident with the jogger the dog that bit was not even involved . It was the other dog that was being petted. 
For those members that are from Ontario Canada (yeah) , you are familiar with a GSD that was news just two three weeks ago. A person had been out with his GSD , no leash probably no collar, left the dog outside a convenience store , where the dog seriously bit up an elderly gentleman who was minding his own business , a victim of wrong place wrong time only, a teen age girl and an elderly woman. This was all caught on tape --. The dog was screaming anxiety , moving around like a blood scenting shark . There are some serious criminal charges pending.
That is what you can expect if you don't get control of the situation . You have had two reported incidents which makes you aware that you must take extra measures in management. Never off leash . Maybe muzzle in public . Kennelled at home . 
I would split the two dogs. 
I would not pass on the problem . Convenient yes . Responsible , not so much.

Also in some places there are laws which follow the problem to the source. That means that if you re-home the dog first of all you must be brutally honest in revealing that the dog has a problem, then if the new owner has an "accident" he has accepted liability but that liability can go right back to you as well.

You worked hard to get what you have. You don't want to loose it all with a law suit.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Since the OP is unwilling to continue working with the dog and the breeder is willing to take the dog back and is also willing to do all of the work necessary to rehab this dog then I would go that route. I would also want assurance that the breeder is willing to keep the dog should he be unable to rehome him due to behavioral or liability issues.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Dogs bite out of fear, then. Unless they have been trained otherwise.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Since the OP is unwilling to continue working with the dog and the breeder is willing to take the dog back and is also willing to do all of the work necessary to rehab this dog then I would go that route. I would also want assurance that the breeder is willing to keep the dog should he be unable to rehome him due to behavioral or liability issues.


I think the breeder would likely put him down if he couldn't rehab him. Or, if he can take on another dog then maybe he'd keep him. I wouldn't think a breeder with any business sense would risk being in the news for selling unsound dogs.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Samba said:


> Dogs bite out of fear, then. Unless they have been trained otherwise.


Well.. in the context of what we're talking about yeah. Catching and biting a squirrel is of course not fear, its prey drive. But, I think its pretty rare that a dog bites a human b/c they are looking at them as prey. 

Even in schutzhund its the sleeve that is the prey item, not the helper.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I think the breeder would likely put him down if he couldn't rehab him. Or, if he can take on another dog then maybe he'd keep him. I wouldn't think a breeder with any business sense would risk being in the news for selling unsound dogs.


I think those are some pretty big assumptions.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What is a "schutzhund dog"?

Is the sleeve always a prey item?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Samba said:


> Dogs bite out of fear, then. Unless they have been trained otherwise.


I understood the posts to mean that there's an element of fear with every bite, whether the dog is trained or not. (human bite, not prey) Is that right or no?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am not sure about all that.

Prey bite...pretty sure doggers not afraid of the sqirrels here. But not all bites are so clearly cut and dried as those squirrel interactions are. 

While the dog in this instance might have been fearful...we have no video of the interaction, we have no firsthand knowledge of this dog's character, we do not know what sort of dog handlers the owners are. I just maintain there is lots of information I would want before much diagnostics could go on.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Samba said:


> While the dog in this instance might have been fearful...we have no video of the interaction, we have no firsthand knowledge of this dog's character, we do not know what sort of dog handlers the owners are. I just maintain there is lots of information I would want before much diagnostics could go on.


I agree. I think judgement was passed pretty fast for this poor dog and with very little background/information.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Vinnie said:


> I agree. I think judgement was passed pretty fast for this poor dog and with very little background/information.


Unfortunately, I think the OP is worried about being sued since both instances ended in a bite. 

But I agree.....deeming him a "fear biter" without actually doing a proper in-person temperament assessment is slightly jumping the gun.

In both instances it sounds like he was caught off guard, first a jogger running up and then a maintenance man popping up behind equipment. 

If the breeder is willing to take him back and rehabilitate I think that is the best choice all around. The dog is handled by hopefully a skilled professional and the OP doesn't have the added anxiety of "what if".


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Not only little information, but also assumptions of things that had not been said and in generalizations of dog behaviour that may not be accurate. That almost all dogs bite out of fear is a sad true on the GSD today, but to decide the future of this particular individual based on percentages is to take a big jump.

This dog need to be evaluated IN person by someone, and probably the breeder is the best person to do it himself or to look someone to get the dog evaluated.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I think those are some pretty big assumptions.


which ones? If the breeder can't keep him permanently, and can't rehab him (and knows he can't) you think he will knowingly put a problem dog that he produced in an accident waiting to happen home?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Samba said:


> I am not sure about all that.
> 
> Prey bite...pretty sure doggers not afraid of the sqirrels here. But not all bites are so clearly cut and dried as those squirrel interactions are.
> 
> While the dog in this instance might have been fearful...we have no video of the interaction, we have no firsthand knowledge of this dog's character, we do not know what sort of dog handlers the owners are. I just maintain there is lots of information I would want before much diagnostics could go on.


well of course more info would be useful, but we probably have a decent picture painted for us here. I doubt anyone here is going to go personally observe the dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

valreegrl said:


> Unfortunately, I think the OP is worried about being sued since both instances ended in a bite.
> 
> But I agree.....deeming him a "fear biter" without actually doing a proper in-person temperament assessment is slightly jumping the gun.
> 
> ...


The guy popping up behind equipment thing I could almost excuse personally.. If I were the maintenance man, I'd have said "this is totally my fault as I entered a fenced in yard at a dog friendly resort without warning and that was stupid", but most people aren't me. The jogger I really feel shouldn't have seemed threatening unless the particular situation presented a surprise to the dog. The other dog wasn't reacting to a threat though, so I sort of have to assume the jogger didn't pull any big surprises.

Regardless, I don't believe (and everyone has an opinion here), that a dog should bite just because it was surprised and that justifies it. I was down the street with my garage door open. A kid selling magazines rang my door bell. I guess he thought I was in the garage, because when we came home he was in the back of my garage knocking on the door to my kitchen. My dog charged him with a bunch of noise. Had he bit him, I'd have found that unacceptable and done whatever was needed to correct that. This was for all purposes in the dogs eyes, in our house.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Samba said:


> I am not sure about all that.
> 
> Prey bite...pretty sure doggers not afraid of the sqirrels here. But not all bites are so clearly cut and dried as those squirrel interactions are.
> 
> While the dog in this instance might have been fearful...we have no video of the interaction, we have no firsthand knowledge of this dog's character, we do not know what sort of dog handlers the owners are. I just maintain there is lots of information I would want before much diagnostics could go on.


We can either speak in generalizations understanding that there are exceptions to every rule, or we can be so vague and without substance in our discussions to remain irrefutable as to not actually accomplish anything meaningful lol.

I said above that a dog biting a squirrel isn't fear biting.

(for the below, 'you' is anyone, not you )
I'm also aware that I'm not 100% correct, and when I've been or do get called out and shown I'm wrong I'll admit that, put that in my back pocket, and grow as a trainer. If someone just refutes something or attacks my statement, thats not going to get anywhere. If you try to persuade me that I'm inaccurate, or flat out wrong even, I'll willingly listen to every single thing you have to say and decide for myself if the argument was sound, if I have been pursuaded, and I am infact in need of a change of thought... just don't do it with a condescending attitude or peppered with insults as thats really going to close my ears (eyes) quickly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> which ones? If the breeder can't keep him permanently, and can't rehab him (and knows he can't) you think he will knowingly put a problem dog that he produced in an accident waiting to happen home?



I think all of what you said are assumptions. You are making the assumption, even in this post, on what the breeder will do. It's not our place to say what an unknown person will do. You don't know why the dog is being aggressive. You don't know the breeder. To be quite honest, if I were the OP, I'd be long gone. This thread asking for help has been hi-jacked with speculations and assumptions about why the dog is aggressive and what the breeder will do with the dog. There is very little to help them with their dog. Threads like these really need to stay on track to help the OP and the dogs, not to used as examples for theories. JMO


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Catu said:


> to decide the future of this particular individual based on percentages is to take a big jump.
> 
> This dog need to be evaluated IN person by someone, and probably the breeder is the best person to do it himself or to look someone to get the dog evaluated.


Regardless of the assessment, my hope was to immediately dissuade the owner from merely rehoming him so that person can come on here with the same issue (even if we haven't accurately assessed what that issue is). I think we would all agree the best thing for the dog would be to stay with the owner and the owner learn how to read his dog and administer the proper fix himself. Thats not an option, so I think going back to the breeder is probably 2 unless Caser Milan wants to provide him a permanent home. (Or anyone else who can, not thinks they can, deal with a dog with an biting issue). Not sure that there is a 3, as a rescue won't take the dog as many have pointed out (or maybe there is a rescue that will? I don't know the answer to that), and rehoming with another regular joe isn't an option in my opinion. I also don't want to see any dogs put down that don't need to be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> Since the OP is unwilling to continue working with the dog and the breeder is willing to take the dog back and is also willing to do all of the work necessary to rehab this dog then I would go that route. I would also want assurance that the breeder is willing to keep the dog should he be unable to rehome him due to behavioral or liability issues.


I 100% agree with BowWowMeow. It sounds like the breeder has a plan in place to help him. And, the OP may have a contract stating the breeder has first right of refusal.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I think all of what you said are assumptions. You are making the assumption, even in this post, on what the breeder will do. It's not our place to say what an unknown person will do. You don't know why the dog is being aggressive. You don't know the breeder. To be quite honest, if I were the OP, I'd be long gone. This thread asking for help has been hi-jacked with speculations and assumptions about why the dog is aggressive and what the breeder will do with the dog. There is very little to help them with their dog. Threads like these really need to stay on track to help the OP and the dogs, not to used as examples for theories. JMO


I said "I think the breeder would likely put him down if he couldn't rehab him. Or, if he can take on another dog then maybe he'd keep him. I wouldn't think a breeder with any business sense would risk being in the news for selling unsound dogs."

The whole thing is my opinion.... my opinion even peppered with words like "if", "maybe", and "likely". And clearly it says "I think" and "I don't think" I used so many soft words in there that I don't really see where I made any assumptions at all?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not going to argue about it and take the thread further off track.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I'm not going to argue about it and take the thread further off track.


I don't feel like its an argument  I like discussions. Nothing wrong with healthy discussions

Personally, I think the OP's decision was sealed before this thread started, and that he was looking for some validation that his decision to get rid of the dog was the right one and to make him feel less guilty about getting rid of a dog he otherwise surely loves. Nothing wrong with any of that btw... I just think thats what happened


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

Giving the information provided, I think the OP's best choice would be to return the dog to the breeder. They will be better able to evaluate it and decide a course of action from there.


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for your words....This is a very difficult time for my wife and I. We are literally sick over the whole ordeal. Funny how we all love our beautiful GSD's as much as we love our own family.



Caledon said:


> As hard as it will be to give him up, I think returning him to the breeder who has experience will be the best for him.


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## disconnected111 (Jan 30, 2011)

Good god man. You really jump around don't you? I joined this forum to seek advice from experienced dog owners, not to validate any pre-conceived notions of ridding guilt. If I wanted that I would have joined a therapy forum. I am trying to pursue the best route for my family and my dog. You assume to know me, and that my friend is unacceptable. 




hunterisgreat said:


> I don't feel like its an argument  I like discussions. Nothing wrong with healthy discussions
> 
> Personally, I think the OP's decision was sealed before this thread started, and that he was looking for some validation that his decision to get rid of the dog was the right one and to make him feel less guilty about getting rid of a dog he otherwise surely loves. Nothing wrong with any of that btw... I just think thats what happened


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you may have legally absolved your liability , covered your a-s , how about the poor guy who may be the next victim of a bite, what about his a-s that gets bitten , or worse .


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> you may have legally absolved your liability , covered your a-s , how about the poor guy who may be the next victim of a bite, what about his a-s that gets bitten , or worse .


Agreed, the long arm of litigation reaches way back. Hope you had the new owner sign a release of some sort that keeps you safe from future litigation. I have such a dog, a Briard, but he is managed and I am careful to isolate him from anyone but my family (btw, I deal with aggression cases regularly as a trainer, it makes up a large chunk of my private clientele). He is well trained but must be constantly watched. Management is key and separation from the other dog to prevent the possibility of facilitated behavior or resource guarding would have been a good start. All dogs should be properly managed, especially if they cannot be trusted (and even more so because the public cannot be trusted around your dog). Sometimes we do not end up with the "fantasy dog" we envisioned, but this is where we need to think with our minds, not with our hearts. Management is key.


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## westallkennel (Feb 3, 2011)

I can not stress this enough. German Shepherds need lots of SOCIALIZATION at an early age. The more you socialize your dog the more confidence he will have. socializing your dog does not mean he will be less of a watch dog. My shepherd is in the puplic for 8 to 9 hour a day and she still alerts me to strangers at the house.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

So David how is Blitz making out ?


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