# German Show and Working Lines



## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

Really interested in knowing what you experienced people think about the major differences between titled West German show lines and titled West German working lines - is it fine to generalize that showlines score better on looks while working lines do better on drive? In any case, how significantly different these two dogs are?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I own one of both and I love them both. IMO, the main generalization is that the working lines are bred selectively for drive and proper working temperament (not necessarily out of control, but definitely more sound) and the show lines are more selectively bred for conformation and a "looser" concept of temperament/drive. There are some show lines that do well in SchH but unfortunately they are becoming an outlier (however it should be said that there are working lines that can be too soft, nervy, spooky, unsound, etc). It's not true that the working line people don't care about looks, it's just that the show line people care a lot more and have a more extreme, cookie-cutter "type" that they are going for. For many, the SchH titles are just something that they get out of the way in order to get V or VA ratings. Many decent dogs get really crap training and many dogs are just crap dogs as far as their work. The working line dogs often do perfectly well in the show ring. I don't know of any VAs currently but that's more do to how/why the judges award VAs than the dog's conformation not being good enough (most judges want to see progeny in shows or a progeny group, or have personal rules like they won't award a VA to a dog they haven't seen show at least two other times, so since the working lines don't show as often and don't put up progeny groups it hurts their chances at top ratings).

This is a pretty loaded topic but this is just what I have observed.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I've had both. My showline dogs were not as intense. They were a little more aloof with me and they definitely didn't have the strong desire to please. They were Great Pets but if I wanted to compete in anything other than the show ring, I would say get a well bred working line dog. If you want a housepet, want a little more laid back dog overall and like the looks of the gorgeous black and reds, the show dogs will fit the bill. 

All of my dogs, have been great in the house. The work dogs would be lazy bums when in the house and but still be crazy for the work. The show dogs had a little more energy in the house, but NOT much more in the work if that makes sense. 

Each line has it's place, and also you should judge each dog individually too!


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Mom
> Each line has it's place, and also you should judge each dog individually too!


Absolutely!

I have a showline that I intended to do Schutzhund with. He could get through the sport and be a nice "club" dog, although it would take a lot to build up his drive to the level I would prefer and even at that he would still be below average compared to the working lines. Does that mean he can't do it? Absolutely not! I just think working lines are going to be more forgiving of your mistakes and easier to maintain drive with. 

Herding, agility and obedience are nice sports for showlines and I think that is what we are going to aim for instead of Schutzhund.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Branca's mom, YOU must have made a mistake in describing your working dog in the house because I've read too many times on this site about the perils of the workinglines as pets or in the house. Have you bumped your head, or do some of these people that have never owned a workingline don't know what they are talking about...I'm confused?!?!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Branca's mom, YOU must have made a mistake in describing your working dog in the house because I've read too many times on this site about the perils of the workinglines as pets or in the house. Have you bumped your head, or do some of these people that have never owned a workingline don't know what they are talking about...I'm confused?!?!


I must have too because I have five working line dogs from 3.5 months to 11.5 years IN MY HOUSE. Well bred working lines make excellent pets because a well bred dog (from any line) has the "off switch" that is used in the house and during down time. 

I do agree that working lines tend to be more intense in just about everything they do from work to eating to watching over their humans. Some people will find the working line TOO intense for them as often just a game of fetch won't cut it. They are bred to work and they need mental stimulation almost more than physical exercise/stimulation. 

But yes there are VERY good dogs in every line and each dog should ALWAYS be judged on it's own merit not on the "line".


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

My workingline dog is a house dog too. He is very intense when doing just about anything, but as long as he gets lots of exercise, he is perfect in the house. Well bred workingline dogs have an off switch that makes them great pets in addition to working dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Branca's mom, YOU must have made a mistake in describing your working dog in the house because I've read too many times on this site about the perils of the workinglines as pets or in the house. Have you bumped your head, or do some of these people that have never owned a workingline don't know what they are talking about...I'm confused?!?!













No, no, no, Cliff... you've got it all wrong. You've got to bump the dogs in the head... that's how you get those crazy working lines to do this:










And this:


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

There is no doubt I have bumped my head one too many times....










And it is a perilous decision INDEED to let those extreme crazy working dogs in the house!! As you can see, as you may lose your sofa seating.....


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

he he he 
Seems Chris and I posted at the same time... to prove our point about these crazy dogs....


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have one of each, and they both have lots of energy, lots of enthusiasm, plenty of drive, and are great around the house. Halo is almost 6 months old, (my working line puppy), so she still gets the puppy zoomies, but just in the last week or two I've noticed that she's better around the house as she matures. She's not getting into stuff so much, I don't need to constantly watch her like a hawk, and she'll often go find herself a bone to chew and hang out with it for awhile. 

Keefer, my German showline boy, has prey drive out the kazoo, and prior to Halo it seemed impossible to tire him out at the park (lo and behold, dragging a 45+ # puppy around by her teeth is JUST the ticket!







) but he's just a big lump of fur to step over much of the time at home.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Several years ago, I was able to raise a litter of European showlines, and a litter of European working lines that were 7 weeks apart. 
It was really interesting to see the difference in them. The SL litter was a ton easier... stayed in the whelping box, quiet, when they were out loose, they stayed right beside me. They would play with balls and toys and bite my pants leg. 
I still babysit one of them, and she is a nice dog. A little nervy, and was nixed from doing bitework at our schutzhund club because of it.

The WL litter was a HOOT! Out of the whelping box practically before their eyes were open. NOISY, would run and investigate anything and everything. They did not just bite my pants legs, they would climb up them
The WL litter was just more intense in everything they did. I still have one of those puppies and she is wonderful in the house, although a couch hog. I never housetrained her, she just came that way Smart, very intensely loving and loyal.


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

Quite interesting. Many of you guys have both lines - do you have different types, levels, and amount of work outs that you put your WL dog through and SL dog through? Just as an example, you have to run your WL guy 20 miles and SL dog 10 miles. Or, as mentioned by some here, it is primarily the nature of training that is different?

One other interesting thing to know will be how the characteristics differ by gender - so simply in terms of emotional intensity, may be the dogs would rank as (all West German, titled pedigree): WL Male, WL Female, SL Male, SL Female...

What have you guys seen in terms of health issues? Any trends in working lines and show lines? Wonder if there is a database somewhere that maintains historical information and we can pull, lets say, the average rating on hips on all dogs in a given bloodline?

Appreciate your insightful comments....!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I treat mine the same and train them the same, but they are primarily companion dogs. Our lifestyle and my expectations of them are what they are and they are expected to adapt to that.









Our previous showline girl, who was a half sibling to Keefer, was MUCH less intense than he is, very laid back and calm. She was nuts for chasing tennis balls, but other than that was very moderate in drives. So I think you'll see a lot of variety even within the lines. There are some generalizations that may be somewhat true, but are not always, it depends on the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: gagradyQuite interesting. Many of you guys have both lines - do you have different types, levels, and amount of work outs that you put your WL dog through and SL dog through? Just as an example, you have to run your WL guy 20 miles and SL dog 10 miles. Or, as mentioned by some here, it is primarily the nature of training that is different?


Honestly for me it boils down to the dog. Yes there are generalizations that can be made about both lines, but those don't really effect how I treat the dog I have in front of me. My show line is more laid back, an absolute angel in the home (manners-wise), and if anything prefers more mentally stimulating activity than physical exercise. My show line is go, go go! hyper. He needs plenty of physical activity or he's literally pacing and running circles in the house. My working line is soft and a bit nervy, does not have the confidence or the drive for SchH and is not suitable for bitework in any capacity (obedience - yes - but she is a hard dog to motivate b/c she doesn't care about working for balls, toys, and prey type games). My show line has been in SchH since 12 weeks and he's doing fine. He does the bite work, he loves to work in prey drive, and his ball drive is so crazy that even my SchH trainer said we need to go back to food some of the time.

So even with all the generalizations, my dogs turned out the exact opposite. I train and exercise based on what's in front of me. I won't run the working line twice as hard simply because she's a working line when the show line is much more intense.




> Quote:What have you guys seen in terms of health issues?


Again, I can only speak for my own dogs. My working line has no major health issues. She had a staph infection which was successfully treated with one round of antibiotic and she's had a few ear infections. Her hips are great, elbows normal, eyes were CERFed in 2007 (I haven't renewed). My show line is only 8 months but his hips and elbows have been x-rayed and are normal. The only health problem he's had was a minor "cold" (like bordetella, but a different strain) which cleared on its own since he's otherwise healthy.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I currently own a West German show line male and I have to say, he's one that I think could keep up with any working line in terms of drive. His biggest hindrance is his handler .

I have worked with working lines, and enjoyed their intensity, and I really didn't find them to be any more or less attentive than my show line dog...but people have told me that Strauss is a fluke 

Strauss doesn't have a ton of ball drive, which doesn't matter to me...I personally hate fetch. But he'll play tug until one of us is ready to drop dead (it's usually me). He's easily rewarded and easily trained in terms of how quickly he picks up on a new exercise.

My show line has a minor wheat allergy and a propensity towards hot spots during the extreme dry months of the winter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I wanted to do Schutzhund, I would join a Schutzhund club, learn the dogs, and choose one from someone who does Schutzhund whether working or show lines. 

For AKC performance events, you can definitely train German showlines for any of it. I have done agility, herding, obedience, rally with mine, and they learn it just fine and love it. 

I have never owned the working lines so I will not comment on them. My showline dogs have no problems turning off in the house, or running with my bike, they live to please me, and are the absolute best pets, though I am a bit prejudice there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My all German showline boy had a slight wheat allergy as well. For some reason the flies thought his ears were tasty, and they left the others alone. 

Dubya had injured his back and developed spondylosis. I ended up having to put him down. 

Other than that, Dubya had no other health issues. 

I have been extremely fortunate with my bunch, healthwise, besides Dubya's problem, Arwen had chronic ear infections, and she does not tolerate cooked beef/beef bones all that well. Jenna, Babs, Heidi are all healthy as horses, with an infected toe nail being the worst of their troubles. Whit and Tori are skinny, but not terribly so, no EPI or thyroid issues. So far no heart problems. So far we have had luck with ofa too. They say the showlines tend to have more issues, it hasn't really been true for me yet.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think health issues run more in family lines, than working vs. show. For example, I have seen dogs, and heard from others, that Sagus Busecker Schloss could contribute to skin issues. So that would be something you would watch for if linebreeding on Sagus. 

There is a Euro Showline dog said to produce hemophilia (can't remember the name). Another one I would watch carefully for linebreeding.

It really comes down to talking with other, hopefully knowledgeable, people. And then deciding if the stories one hears are malicious, anecdotal, or actually have substance


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1
> 
> There is a Euro Showline dog said to produce hemophilia (can't remember the name). Another one I would watch carefully for linebreeding.


Canto Wienerau introduced hemophilia into the breed. He was one of the dog's that contributed significantly to the working/show split in Germany and is behind all the modern German show lines (and was heavily linebred on) and many of the working lines.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Branca's mom, YOU must have made a mistake in describing your working dog in the house because I've read too many times on this site about the perils of the workinglines as pets or in the house. Have you bumped your head, or do some of these people that have never owned a workingline don't know what they are talking about...I'm confused?!?!


Wanna clue Lucy in?








She does this VERY well.


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## hethir (Sep 25, 2008)

So here's a question for you guys:

We just went camping with the DH's family. One (very opinionated, not very informed) uncle kept snubbing our dogs (west german showlines) saying their "slope" (they're a little roachbacked) made them much more prone to dysplasia. He had a working line shepherd (he wasn't sure from where) and was quite fiesty about how perfect his dog was compared to my "aggressive" 10 month old puppy (as I said, not very informed, this dog is one of the least aggressive dogs although a little pushy when trying to get the kids to play with him-We're working on that . 

Actually, here's an actual quote from him, "Those BROWN dogs are so inbred that they don't live to be 7 or 8 years before they get bad hips". 

Talk about fightin' words! Is there any truth to this? I know I have heard that the working lines may be a little more structurally sound... Is there truth to that too? Or does it just totally depend?


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

My opinion is that blanket statements are rarely accurate.


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## hethir (Sep 25, 2008)

That's kind of what I thought.... It's not like we didn't do our research before choosing which dogs to get and from what bloodlines.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

It is true that if you look at the hip numbers (zw score) that typically showlines have higher numbers, but to the exact correlation to hd? don't quite know about that.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

And there is true on the inbreeding statement. Such inbreeding would never be tolerated in any farm animal, but the correlation with age and hips... I would not put money on that bet.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Posi&clutchSo here's a question for you guys:
> 
> We just went camping with the DH's family. One (very opinionated, not very informed) uncle kept snubbing our dogs (west german showlines) saying their "slope" (they're a little roachbacked) made them much more prone to dysplasia. He had a working line shepherd (he wasn't sure from where) and was quite fiesty about how perfect his dog was compared to my "aggressive" 10 month old puppy (as I said, not very informed, this dog is one of the least aggressive dogs although a little pushy when trying to get the kids to play with him-We're working on that .
> 
> ...


Well it's hard to answer your question because the slope in the back, the steep/falling croups, and the over angulation are all different things, and none of them have anything to do with hips or hip dysplasia.

Also, here is info from another current thread:


> Quote:A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable.


So dogs don't just "get" hip dysplasia when they turn 7 or 8 years.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

The uncle was correct on some things, incorrect on others.
Since he's an uncle there was also probably some good natured teasing involved there.


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