# Breeding age for Dam



## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

In general, at what age is it appropriate to STOP breeding a dam? I noticed the dam bred for Siena was born in 1999 (and Siena born in 2006). I noticed after Siena, the dam was no longer offered on the site for breeding. I've met other pups from the same dam (different sire) who all have the GI issues we've encountered and I've met other pups from the same sire (different dam) who don't have the gi issues. Of course we've had more than just GI issues and I wonder if it could be related to the dam's age at breeding?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I think you answered your own question if pups from different litters have the same issue- no her age at breeding would not effect GI iussues in pups. But her genetics *could* cause similar issues and more than likely did since there are different fathers.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm definitely no expert on breeding, but I wouldn't think that breeding a 7 year old dog could be healthy, seeing as how that's when most dogs are considered "seniors."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it varies from bitch to bitch and also how long between litters. I bred Arwen at four and at five and then waited 18 months because I wanted a spring litter. She was almost seven when she had that litter, besides early x-ray/ultrasound because of a hemangiosarcoma scare, she ended up with one large pup delivered c-section, and we lost it. 

As bitches get older, problems with aborting/resorbing the puppies, missing, pyometra, infections increase. Her strength decreases. For a young healthy bitch to whelp fourteen puppies it is a huge, exhuasting job, for a seven or eight year old bitch to go through that kind of work, well, I think you have to feel very confident about how strong and fit your bitch is. 

One of the biggest problems with breeding dogs is that often by the time enough progeny develop issues, the dam is generally retired anyway. So I guess if you are seeing a trend in your puppies toward certain health issues, it is definitely time to consider your breeding program, the dam and any progeny that you held back specifically for breeding. 

I think that in some ways it makes a case for breeding a bitch right off of her ofas so that you can let those pups grow up some before deciding to repeat the breeding. If the problems crop of before age three, you have a possibility of influencing your breeding choices. But then you have to be 100% certain the stud owner is straight with you about what the dog produces.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Selzer......I would agree with you.
Older bitches can be bred if their health is strong.
I've seen females bred at age 8 1/2...and have a strong, normal size litter, with no problems at delivery.
It really does depend.......is it an "ideal" situation?...of course not.
Check the females over-all physical and internal health, before even considering.
As for "genetic" problems....I don't know many that can be possibly contributed to "age" of whelp....?
JMO


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## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

Thanks for the opinions. It doesn't matter now, but something I had always wondered. I know she was taken off the breeders list soon after this litter (there were 4 pups in total). I have no idea how the health is for the other pups in the litter, but I hope they are better than Siena's.

So, would a 7 year old bitch be amounted to 50 years (in human terms)? I know we have humans giving birth at 50 (why, I do not know), but it's often very risky.

Thanks again. I like being informed for future decisions.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think for a breed of dog that lives to be about 18, 9 might be considered to be about 50, maybe more like 40. 

For shepherds, like everything else about shepherds it really depends. It depends on their ancestors, how their longevity is, and it depends on the bitch herself. 

Some lines have a lot of dogs dying at nine and ten years old. For a bitch in these lines, 7 would probably be well beyond the point where she should be bred. 

Other lines last 13 to 14 years regularly. I would liken an average bitch from these lines to a person in their late thirties. I would certainly not want a bitch to have her first litter at this point, but perhaps her last litter, or second to last litter.

And then the individual bitch may just age less gracefully than her breeding would suspect.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

When you retire a breeding female do you spay them?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I do.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I do as well.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Yes. Emi was spayed the other month and is now a service dog. She loves it!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not yet. I spayed Arwen because she was under anesthetic already. 

I am a bit paranoid about putting my critters under, and avoid it. I do not mind heat cycles, and I keep my eyes open to how my bitches are doing, so that hopefully, I will recognize any signs of pyrometra which is the best reason in my opinion to spay to avoid an issue.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerNot yet. I spayed Arwen because she was under anesthetic already.
> 
> I am a bit paranoid about putting my critters under, and avoid it. I do not mind heat cycles, and I keep my eyes open to how my bitches are doing, so that hopefully, I will recognize any signs of pyrometra which is the best reason in my opinion to spay to avoid an issue.


Im not being rude when I ask this....
But why are you nervous to have them "sleep"?
Dont they do it to pets everyday?
And people?


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

That is great of you I think! Less chance of mammary (sp) cancers. 

When I went to get Bo I found out his mom was 9 years old and I was upset with that, she said it was not planned, she only had 3 babies. I think she was to cheap to spend the money on a spay they cost around $300 up here in NH. His mom looked like she was 5 years old not 9 but the akc paper's say DOB 2000.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

There is a risk when you put a dog under anesthia...there is also a risk when humans are too...they have you sign a paper acknowledging that when your dog goes in for surgery...at least most vets do


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Other than an infection of the womb which can be deadly, there is NO good health reason to spay a bitch after it reaches two or three. The benefits of reducing the risk of mammary tumors go way down after the first cycle, worse after the second and practically non-existant after the third. 

In order to allow them to completely mature with all hormones in place, judge them and their temperament, I do not like to make any decisions on my females until they reach two. I wouldn't spay or neuter until after OFAs, that is just my opinion.

Lots of pets are spayed regularly without problems. Others have problems and they do not necessarily link it to the anesthetic or the removal of the hormone generators. Some die. If I lost one of my girls in an attempt to prevent a possible issue, I would be beside myself. If I lose one of my girls because I chose not to spay them, well, I don't know. I am not running to my surgeon to get a double masectomy so I won't get breast cancer. 

I personally believe that the hormones are natural and for more than just procreation. I do not have to allow them to mate because they are intact. I believe they will live longer without an unnecessary operation.


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## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

I can tell you the guilt from losing a bitch from a botched spay job will turn you off spaying forever.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Spaying later in life really has no influence on mammary cancer unfortunately. But it does eliminate the chances of pyometra, and that is the main reason we do it. And it is nice to get rid of the heat cycles because they are a pain the butt, especially with males in the house also, so the fewer of those the better. 

We're starting to dabble a bit in AKC and UKC rally and obedience with our dogs for some extra fun, and the rules against in season females in the ring (SchH does not have such a rule) are already going to be problematic I know. I'm looking at spring trials, and know darn well I'll end up entering a month ahead of time to meet the deadline for entries, then at least one of the girls will come into heat and we won't be able to trial.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chris, so far I haven't had to back out of a trial due to my bitch coming in season. 

The closest was Milla in August, at the specialty, an older utility dog was extremely interested in her, and she came in the day after the trials were over, which means, she was probably already attractive, though no blood. 

Puppies are tough because you can start showing at six months, but mine come in heat usually between eight and ten months. Our spring show is in May when Joy will be ten months old. I am hoping my luck will hold. 

I try to set them up in shows where they are unlikely to come in. Babs was in heat in the end of November, so she should be ok for March, but unlikely for the specialty in May. 

Good luck in Rally, it is a lot of fun.


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