# Convince me I don't want a Mal



## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

So I just got word from the breeder that I have a deposit in with that the breeding I put my deposit on isn't taking place. I am now torn as to what I want to do. I can stay with this breeder who I really like and wait and see if the 2 other upcoming breedings have enough males to accomodate me or I can seek out another breeder. This got me thinking that maybe I want a Mal. I have worked a lot with Mals in the past but have never owned one. I love how hard they are and their over the top drive. This dog is going to be a Sch/IPO dog so the above attrbutes are what are making me think Mal. I need some honest input from people who have owned Mals so I can make the best choice for my family and me. What are your guy's thoughts?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i have no experience with mals but if part of you wants one then get one. you're only gonna get older so why not get what you want now? you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. thats my reasoning for everything and is the reason why i'm usually broke.....


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> i have no experience with mals but if part of you wants one then get one. you're only gonna get older so why not get what you want now? you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. thats my reasoning for everything and is the reason why i'm usually broke.....


OMG thats me. When i am faced with a crazy expensive purse...and when i weaseled in the 3rd dog. It sounded like this "babe listen we only live once and whats the point of not adopting this dog" lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IME, Mals are different. They are more "operant" dogs and super quick. They think less and react more. This can be good or bad, depending on your ability and timing as a trainer. If you are as quick as the dog and are able to stay ahead of the dog mechanically, then they can be a blast and super flashy!

If your experience level is lower and you still struggle with the mechanics of training, a Mal may learn lots of bad habits and end up being difficult for you. They also get frustrated easily if your communication and timing are off. Don't get me wrong, there are GSDs out there that are pretty quick, but they tend to be more forgiving of a novice trainer. 

Dogs are all individuals. I would spend some time with the parents of the litter if available and see what they are like off the field. A solid Mal with no nerve issues and an off switch can be a load of fun to train and work. The same can be said for a good GSD. They are just different in how they work.

I'm not trying to discourage you at all. I enjoy training Mals as they usually have the drive necessary to do many reps of the same behavior and not get bored, especially when mature. You can move pretty quick with a Mal on positions and detection because they will put up with a lot to get their toy. At the end of the day, I would rather hang out with a GSD because they are more about the relationship with the handler and less about getting to the toy. The tightly bonded relationship and individual partnership can be found more prevalently in the GSD. Most Mals will work for anybody as long as the toy is there IME.

As a disclaimer, YMMV. I have met some very Mal like GSDs, and some very GSD like Mals. IMHO, a good dog (for the individual handler) is a good dog, regardless of breed. I think there is no "Dark Side" in the world of working dogs  There are also some great Shepinois (GSDxMal) dogs out there!


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I have an internship with Jonathan Katz of the Chicago Canine Company where they do a wide variety of activities, including PSA and detection work and decoy for French Ring enthusiasts as well. Many of these activities are dominated by Mals and as a result I have been able to work with, around and observe an a lot of Mals in the last few months. I have a good amount of respect for their working ability - Mals tend to charge into the task like a barrel of monkeys, get there and go "ok what am I doing now? oh yeah!" whereas the GSDs tend to charge to the task and get to work more methodically. My GSD Frank is much admired for his "drive of a Malinois with the intelligence and looks of a GSD" and I'm very proud of that amidst a sea of Malinois.  

If you want that, remember dogs are individuals and genetics will tip in your favor if you choose well. So you can go with a Malinois or a GSD, whichever you prefer because either way you are going to have to do your research on breeders, their lines and what their dogs are doing and have done. I am absolutely in awe of mine, and his genetics weren't just luck. I did my best in finding what it was I wanted for what I wanted to do and my breeder matched exactly the right puppy for me. He's amazing. Okay really I have to stop bragging about him. :wild:


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My best friend searched high and low for a good Mal breeder. She wanted a dog that would work, but not be "over the top"...... She found one and he is now 2. She bought him for show and working and he does both. He is super neat, easy to be around, not real hyper and an absolute blast to show and train.
They are out there. I love the Mals that come from this breeder, she has done her homework and produces working and show Mals with awesome temperaments.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wyominggrandma said:


> My best friend searched high and low for a good Mal breeder. She wanted a dog that would work, but not be "over the top"...... She found one and he is now 2. She bought him for show and working and he does both. He is super neat, easy to be around, not real hyper and an absolute blast to show and train.
> They are out there. I love the Mals that come from this breeder, she has done her homework and produces working and show Mals with awesome temperaments.


Who is the breeder?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I love malinois. I'm not going to be a good one to convince you. I truly admire the sweetness, drive and athleticism of a well-bred malinois. I also love the look of red sables... chose what you want. It is your decision and what you like, others may not. And there are malinois that think and don't just work for the toy (although working for a toy is one of their best traits, too). Puppyhood can be a challenge- they are quick and usually reactive- but a nicely trained, well-bred adult malinois can't be beat in performance, looks, or attachment and sweetness to their owner and family. They LOVE their people and show it.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Maybe you _do_ want a Mal. Maybe I do too. 

Smaller size, greater athleticism (for sport purposes, anyhow, which is mainly what I care about), longer working life, fewer health problems in the breed, easy to get flashy obedience, _much_ easier to hit top speeds in agility... what's not to love?

The only thing that holds me back is the personality (well, and the energy level, but I think careful selection + early training will render that semi-manageable). I've seen the same thing David describes where the Mal just wants the tug and doesn't seem to care too much about who's on the other end. Some of that is training (some dogs are purposefully trained that way so they'll be easier to switch off to other handlers), but I am inclined to think that some is breed predisposition, too.

And I really, really value that intense bond. That's the whole reason I like dog sports so much: because that means building and working with that bond.

I don't know where to find it in Mals. I'm not saying it isn't out there, I just don't know where to _find_ it. I sure would like to, though.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Maybe you _do_ want a Mal. Maybe I do too.
> 
> Smaller size, greater athleticism (for sport purposes, anyhow, which is mainly what I care about), longer working life, fewer health problems in the breed, easy to get flashy obedience, _much_ easier to hit top speeds in agility... what's not to love?
> 
> ...


I agree that some of the detachment comes from training styles. If you encourage interaction with the handler instead of simply rewarding and checking out the dog will have a different attitude in the work and relationship. The toy is such a high value reward that it is easy to get lazy and simply allow the dog to check out. This can happen with any dog, but because of the ADD nature the mal it happens easier.

My experience has been primarily with adult dogs, not dogs raised through their lives with one handler. I have seen some pretty sweet mals for sure  

David Winners


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I agree that some of the detachment comes from training styles. If you encourage interaction with the handler instead of simply rewarding and checking out the dog will have a different attitude in the work and relationship. The toy is such a high value reward that it is easy to get lazy and simply allow the dog to check out. This can happen with any dog, but because of the ADD nature the mal it happens easier.


Yeah, the impression I kinda get is that you can use a mechanically skilled but impersonal approach to get spectacular results with a Mal. You don't necessarily have to have a super strong personal bond (although I'm sure it can't hurt) -- from what I've seen, just having really good mechanical training skills is sufficient.

So I can see the appeal, but personally I'm just not into that style. I'm a hobbyist, I can afford (and want to!) spend years on just one dog.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Oh, can I just add that I do love how much the Mals seem to love everybody and really want to please!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> IME, Mals are different. They are more "operant" dogs and super quick. They think less and react more. This can be good or bad, depending on your ability and timing as a trainer. If you are as quick as the dog and are able to stay ahead of the dog mechanically, then they can be a blast and super flashy!
> 
> If your experience level is lower and you still struggle with the mechanics of training, a Mal may learn lots of bad habits and end up being difficult for you. They also get frustrated easily if your communication and timing are off. Don't get me wrong, there are GSDs out there that are pretty quick, but they tend to be more forgiving of a novice trainer.
> 
> ...


It's interesting you say that, my friend's last batch of dogs from the Netherlands that she was testing for the academy were mostly "Shepinois". The strongest ones were the mixes, with no pedigrees lol.

I agree that there are some awesome Mal's out there. The health aspects are what draw me to them (as M stated). I also agree that they don't seem to "care" as much about their handlers. GSD's also strike me as "thinkers" more so than the mal. I was just talking to my K9 handler friend (who has a GSD so is biased lol), and he says he sees the same thing with the different guys he trains with. He said he's seen a healthy mixture of both in the working world, and most of his handler (LE) friends prefer the GSD. I also just don't care too much for the "look" of the Mal. I just think GSDs look cooler , but that doesn't mean anything when it comes to workability.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

At first I wanted a Mal, then was talked out of it for my first working dog by my Vet who also does training for sport and police so I got a GSD. He's great and I love it. But when i went to my club where the TD breeds both GSDs and Mals I fell in love with mals all over again. Kinda torn on what I want next same as you. 

But coming from him. Who has very stable Mals and competes at a very high level. You can find that over the top mal which everyone breeds for and chooses for sport. But his pick for himself was the calmer of the puppies. Theyre out there just harder to find. 
If you Pm I can give you his info. He just bred a female that had an awesome litter last year that two national and one international competitor took puppies from. And you can decide from on your own. Oddly enough my Vet didn't know my TD also bred Mals, if I would have met my TD a few months earlier I would probaly have a Mal.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

If you want a GSD, then wait for what you want and don't settle for something that is only good enough.

Why is it that some people never have enough time to do the job right the first time but always have enough time to do it again?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MichaelE said:


> If you want a GSD, then wait for what you want and don't settle for something that is only good enough.
> 
> Why is it that some people never have enough time to do the job right the first time but always have enough time to do it again?


Maybe they don't understand how taking the time at first will save them so much time and frustration later, until they have had to work a dog that wasn't right for them.

David Winners


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Do you want a crack dog? Then get a mal! We have one at training. Brilliant, but cannot stay for more than 10 seconds.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> If you want a GSD, then wait for what you want and don't settle for something that is only good enough.
> 
> Why is it that some people never have enough time to do the job right the first time but always have enough time to do it again?


In a culture that is currently inundated with "it's the person not the dog, all dogs are wonderful and have the potential to do anything" it's not surprising that most people, myself included, think/thought the dog doesn't matter as much as the training. Then the dog they buy has genetic issues (temperament or otherwise) that can NOT be overcome, no matter how "good" of training it receives and have to be dealt with...then the lesson is learned. I think a LOT go this route, it def isn't the "abnormal."

Of course when you are talking about high level sport/work, one would assume at that point the buyer would be educated. I don't know the experience OP has. If he hasn't been in the sport/work long or much, he might not know what's important and what isn't. Or he may be really into the sport and has always kind of gone back and forth between mal and shep, and is wondering if maybe this current situation means he should go the mal route. I think a lot of handlers doubt themselves when they first take the leap to Mal. It's an intimidating breed, even in the working world. I didn't get the impression he was "settling" for anything...just contemplating a possible alternative route.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP, you mentioned "what's right for my family." Are you wanting this to be a family dog as well as in the sport?


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

To the OPs defense I don't think that it was ever stated that he/she would be settling for either dog.

I took the thread as feeler outer, on how GSD owners viewed Mals. And who's to say that either of the upcoming 2 litters from the selected litter could deliver what the OP was orginally looking and how long it took to find that pairing?

I'll add this that my TD who breeds Mals acknowleges that one should be carefull on picking a Mal. That there is a lot of breeding of nervy and handler aggressive mals bred now because those Mals are so over the top and compete well, but are essentially un managable after a certain point. And that there are lines and dogs he wouldn't touch because of that.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

coastie, all i can tell you is, that if you have owned a gsd, no other dogs compare. ihave over the years had terriers and a mountain dog. liked them all, but always i compared them to gsd, and always have come up short.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

MichaelE said:


> If you want a GSD, then wait for what you want and don't settle for something that is only good enough.
> 
> Why is it that some people never have enough time to do the job right the first time but always have enough time to do it again?


I am definetly not settling. I love both Mals and GSDs I am just torn as to which one I really want. 

To the person who mentioned my family, this is a sport dog but still has to live with my family.

Thanks everyone for all the input it was helpful but I still am torn LOL


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I was pretty close to getting a mal. I like them for all the same reasons everyone has already stated, health, athletic ability, drive etc. For me I eventually decided that their personality wasn't a good fit. I find them to be very internal, I like an exuberant, expressive personality (like a GSD.) I also find and have heard that mals tend to be very in your face all the time, I like a dog that will be affectionate at times but I personally can't stand a dog in my face all the time wanting attention or activity. I just personally found that I love the working ability but tr personality was just not a good fit for me, I find them kind of irritating lol. But that's all just personal preference, not saying they aren't great dogs with awesome personality.....just not for me. I will always admire them, just like I will always admire the working ability of a border collie but that type of super intense, internal personality is just not what I like. If you like that, then they would be a great dog!


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## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Go with your gut when you know you wont have any regrets! Last thing you want to do is get a BMal and regret your decision.

If by chance you do go that route I can tell you from two years as a decoy for KNPV that these dogs may be the best I've ever seen. Too much for me personally but for someone looking for a dog that can do it all in protection work then go for it.

Been worked over by the majority of protection breeds and nothing ever impressed me more than a well trained Mal. Close second was the Belg Shepherd. But still second.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We had a Mali in our club that was the guy's first IPO dog. She had very good drives to work, but wasn't nutty over the top. She was also his pet, house dog, companion. You just have to know where to look. 

We also have a couple of more Mals in the club. The female is pretty darn drivey, but a dog most working people could probably handle. The male is nuts, IMO (and I like strong dogs), but the handler is experienced and has done a good job with him. He is NOT a dog for most working people let alone someone that also wants to live with their dog.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I have very limited experience with Mals but my agility trainer has one and her assistant has 2, all females and all are from Ot Vitosha (which I understand is a big working kennel?). All of the dogs are very nice, sweet dogs. They have dabbled in schutzhund but all are heavily titled in agility and the one has taken first place at the AAC nationals and they all place at regionals every year, even with two of them being seniors now. These dogs have been raised by extremely knowledgeable handlers and all are exercised and stimulated A LOT but are all housepets, live with many other animals, do public demos and are just wonderfully trained companions. I admire them every time I see them. 
None of them are quick to react, all seem strongly bonded to their person, all are 100% bombproof off leash in high distraction areas without any aversive training, but they definitely are all about the tug at the end of the game.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I just got my first Mal pup, so don't have much to contribute as to her temperament just yet, and won't until she matures some, but I can tell you that she already has drive for days and is very agile for a puppy of her age. My female GSD was similar in structure at this age though, so that's not too uncommon for me. I was nervous about getting a Mal, but the opportunity was presented to me when the female (who is owned by a close friend/training partner) was bred. She is a house pet and lives with a family and two children, as well as another dog. She is really a super nice dog with a stable temperament off the field, and it's the only reason I was so interested in the litter at all. 

My pup at 8 weeks is crazy confident, outgoing and social, but I've seen plenty of nervebag Mal puppies (and GSDs too). Just depends on where you're looking. I don't think you could go wrong with a stable, well bred dog either way.

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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Go with the mal. I effin love mals.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

You dont want a Mal!
Did that work? 

Mals are such awesome dogs though...im no good at convincing...


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Have you seen this video... a little helpful. 



I have a Dutch Shep., so I know a bit about the decision. Of course I romanticized everything and then got this little terror. Puppyhood was nothing like my GSD and Aussies, it was really hard. If you knew me, it is probably true that I should really not have gone with this breed, but if you knew me, you know I will rise to the occasion. No turning back now. He is nearly 7 months old now and it is coming together nicely. Smart, fast learner, and good work ethic. I'm training him in SAR and he shows a lot of promise... his nose is amazing. There isn't a lot of down time.
Like others said, choosing your breeder careful is key. My DS is very stable, thank God. His breeder used to breed malinois and competes a lot in IPO. He is a talker so might want to give him a call. Les Flores of De Las Flores Kennel in Washington State. He has a website and lots of Facebook presence.

Good luck. All in all I know I have a good guy and I know he will make be a better person and better trainer. Thank god he is stable enough to deal with my deficiencies. ;-)


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Well I think you guys have failed. I went and visited a breeder last night. Watched the Sire of the unpcoming litter work and man was he impressive. They also had some other dogs from earlier litter all very impressive dogs. I am pretty sold. Going to meet the dam on saturday.


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