# Champion Pet Foods - Fish By-Products



## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

I came across this interesting bit of information about Champion's source of fish. It comes from a company called Freshwater Fish. Here is a story from the company's newsletter:

Freshwater Fish is always looking to expand its market 
reach and to strengthen existing markets – even non-human 
ones! 
We recently signed an exclusive arrangement with Alberta- 
based Champion Petfoods, whereby we sell all minced 
by-products to them and they in turn buy all the product 
we have to offer. 
We began working with Champion in 2005 when we 
sent them samples of minced by-products for testing after 
it was extracted from fish during the filleting process. Prior 
to sending the product to Alberta, we had been paying to 
have the waste trucked to a rendering facility in Winnipeg. 
After the samples were tested by Champion, a product was 
developed that met their high quality specifications. 
This business brings in several hundred thousand dollars 
in revenue for a product that previously cost us money to 
dispose of – and we’re thrilled to be building on a relationship 
that dates back more than five years. 



Apparently, Champion uses minced fish by-products, which were previously thrown away by its supplier. Yum!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

ugh! I wonder what this particular 'minced by-product' is labled as on the pet food bag?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Is that like "poultry by product" where it is poultry but not really the meat you were expecting it to be?


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Is that like "poultry by product" where it is poultry but not really the meat you were expecting it to be?


From the article, it sounds like it is the stuff humans won't eat. The company was paying to get rid of it before Champion decided to buy it.

Maybe this is one of the "improvements" the new owners of Champion are making to the products.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

All the more reason NOT to feed Orijen!  Not that I have anything against by-products, I'm actually quite the fan considering they can be a healthy source of nutrition and are low in ash. But at $80-$90 for just under 30lb of food.....Well, I can buy "by-products" for cheaper. I'm sure people assume Canadians have the same pet food regulations that the US does (Not saying we exactly have the "best" regulations out there or anything), there is a good chance they DON'T and they can probably get away putting things like "Salmon Meal" on the label when it's really "by-products" of salmon. They could have completely different definitions of "meals" and "by-products" up there.

Anyone want to offer some knowledge on how the Canadian pet food industry works?? I'm simply thinking out loud here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> samples of minced by-products for testing after
> it was extracted from fish during the filleting process.


My guess is that would be scales, fins, innards


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> My guess is that would be scales, fins, innards


I was thinking heads, tails and guts, but scales and fins are a possibility too.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I love these food threads. They're all so entertaining... especially the orijen ones. 

Zookeep... where did you find that information? Do you have a link? 

And if they're using fish by-products... wouldn't it have to be listed on the ingredient list?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Nevermind... I found it.

http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system/files/L2PNewsletter%20Winter%202011.pdf

I wonder how they can use by-products and not have it listed on the ingredient list.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> Nevermind... I found it.
> 
> http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system/files/L2PNewsletter%20Winter%202011.pdf
> 
> *I wonder how they can use by-products and not have it listed on the ingredient list.*


The question would be what are Canadian standards for pet food. We have to remember that this is NOT a USA made food so we can't base what the label says off our food standards/requirements.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

ChancetheGSD said:


> The question would be what are Canadian standards for pet food. We have to remember that this is NOT a USA made food so we can't base what the label says off our food standards/requirements.



Also, if the formula just changed they have a certain amount of time before they actually have to change the label.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Also, if the formula just changed they have a certain amount of time before they actually have to change the label.


Very true. And in that case, we heard it from NotTony first! :rofl: More money, less food, lower quality!!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I work in a fish market where we cut/gut our own fish. To me, and I could be wrong, the 'byproducts' that we throw out are, whatever is not 'meat' to be sold to the consumer. 

Basically guts/bones/heads/carcass of the fish.


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## wbmills (Jun 12, 2012)

The term "by-product" refers to what is left after all parts of the animal deemed useful as food are removed. It is a loose definition at best. It is up to the company that uses the by-products to decide what parts it uses. For instance, Chicken by-products are not chicken meat or major organs. Those are considered food. Whats left is by-products - feet, beaks, eyes, necks, etc. The food can contain any or all of these and be labelled correctly.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Also, if the formula just changed they have a certain amount of time before they actually have to change the label.


I think it's something like 6 months before they have to change the label. The article says they've been in business together since 2005 so I'd assume they'd have to change the label by now.

Plus... Champions all about fresh and wholesome this and that. I'm sure the last thing they'd want on their label is something like "by-products". Somethings not adding up.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Well, here's their explanation how they get around from using the term "by-products" from another board:

Hi --------,

It’s nice to hear from you again, thank you for giving us a chance to address your concerns! 

Champion Petfoods receives FRESH Walleye, Lake Whitefish and Northern Pike from the Freshwater Fish Company daily. This link  Orijen will take you to our website where you can find more information on this supplier, and our Freshwater Fish. Our ORIJEN diets feature up to 45% fresh meat or fish ingredients, and a minimum of 6 different FRESH meat ingredients all sourced from local trusted suppliers-ORIJEN is unmatched in the quantity, quality and variety of the Fresh meat and fish used in our diets. All of these ingredients including our fish have been passed as fit for human consumption by the CFIA and contain no by-products.

*I think that the confusion with the link that you sent comes down to terminology. The Freshwater Fish Company considers a “by-product” to be what is left of the fish after the fillet has been removed and sold into the human market. In the pet food industry a by product refers to parts of the animal or fish that would not be classified as fit for human consumption.* 

All ORIJEN and ACANA meat and fish ingredients are produced exclusively from animals and fish that have been passed as fit for human consumption, and all are produced in human grade facilities (no by-products, no 3-D animal parts). After the fish has had the fillets removed we put the fish rack through *a process that allows us to pull the remaining meat off the carcass*. It is the remaining meat and fat that we are using, a very high quality ingredient- the same fish that goes into human-grade “fish cakes”. 


ORIJEN is formulated with low-ash ingredients and a very high inclusion of fresh meats, which moderates the ORIJEN calcium and phosphate levels. Bones are a rich source of Biologically Appropriate natural minerals. ASH levels are important as they affect mineral levels. Ash levels increase with the inclusion of chicken, turkey or fish meals. These ‘meals’ are made from rendered flesh and bone of chicken, turkey and fish. Rendering converts bone to ash which is a rich source of mineral. Higher protein results in higher ash. Higher ash results in higher minerals. 

Our diets are moderate in ash – between 6.5% and 7.5%. This is achieved using a 2 point strategy: Our fresh meats are boneless, and our meals are prepared by removing some of the bones before rendering. This results in a very low-ash meal which maintains mineral levels that are safe for long term feeding. 

We are hoping to begin offering a selection of ACANA Classic diets to this US this fall. I don’t have an official timeline right now but you can keep an eye on our website for updates.  Champion Petfoods | Home

I hope this information is helpful, please write back any time you have other questions or concerns. 

Warm Regards, 

Bonnie 
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP

Champion Petfoods and fish "waste" (by-products)? - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community

So basically, it's a word game they're playing. That's a whole lot of money per bag for cheap fish remains.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Zookeep said:


> I came across this interesting bit of information about Champion's source of fish. It comes from a company called Freshwater Fish. Here is a story from the company's newsletter:
> 
> Freshwater Fish is always looking to expand its market
> reach and to strengthen existing markets – even non-human
> ...



HUMMM, would you like to leave a link??? I am sure Champion would like to know about these kinds of statements being put up on a national forum and believe me they are going to be informed. I just googled them and there is no such company, at least that I could find. I hope the moderators here know the kinda fight that they and you might be starting. 

Freshwater Fish - Google Search


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> HUMMM, would you like to leave a link???


 

I left the link to the article. 




3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I am sure Champion would like to know about these kinds of statements being put up on a national forum and believe me they are going to be informed. I just googled them and there is no such company, at least that I could find. I hope the moderators here know the kinda fight that they and you might be starting.
> 
> Freshwater Fish - Google Search


I left the reply from Bonnie of Champion. They're well aware of the company they're in business with.

And they do exist. Add the word "company" to your google search. 

From Lake to Plate |


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A link was already put up to this newsletter and the article within.
http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system/files/L2PNewsletter%20Winter%202011.pdf

It was in post 10 of this thread.
The company page is here
From Lake to Plate |

The logo matches the one on Champion PetFoods Page here for some of the fish products
Fresh Wild-Caught Fish | Acana

Given the article in the corporate newsletter, it seems like valid questions are being asked. The truth is what matters, whatever it is. Ad hype being what it is I think few are innocent. I would love a company that says "we use the following products deemed undesirable for human consumption from animals fit for human consumption and the quality is high because" and then give me a full assay of their product.............they all paint pictures of happy animals frolicking in the wilds and the truth is food, including human food, is an industry..........and the animals are not happily running around in the pastures eating up wild grass and natural herbs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> HUMMM, would you like to leave a link??? I am sure Champion would like to know about these kinds of statements being put up on a national forum and believe me they are going to be informed. I just googled them and there is no such company, at least that I could find.* I hope the moderators here know the kinda fight that they and you might be starting. *
> 
> Freshwater Fish - Google Search


curious...how is it you can post your opinions as fact with some fairly nasty comments that could be considered libel but when someone questions an article put out by a supplier of Champion, you feel you can threaten them?


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

I feed Acana Pacifica and I'm not concerned ... Jake is finally doing well on a food. He is pooping normally, he is gaining weight and his skin and coat look really healthy. 

If I worried about every detail of the food I feed my pets and my family, we'd never eat.


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> HUMMM, would you like to leave a link??? I am sure Champion would like to know about these kinds of statements being put up on a national forum and believe me they are going to be informed. I just googled them and there is no such company, at least that I could find. I hope the moderators here know the kinda fight that they and you might be starting.
> 
> Freshwater Fish - Google Search


All I did was quote from the newsletter of Champion's fish supplier. Please feel free to inform Champion, but I am sure Champion already knows about this.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Zookeep said:


> I came across this interesting bit of information about Champion's source of fish. It comes from a company called Freshwater Fish. Here is a story from the company's newsletter:
> 
> Freshwater Fish is always looking to expand its market
> reach and to strengthen existing markets – even non-human
> ...


Here we go again, only putting up part of the quote, read the article carefully because it says

"""samples of minced by-products for testing""""

MUCH DIFFERENT THAN THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING, THEN IT SAYS. 

After the samples were tested by Champion, ""a product was
developed"" that met their high quality specifications.

MY GOODNESS HOW YOU HAVE TWISTED THOSE WORDS AROUND. BASH, BASH, BASH, BUT SOME OF US READ THE ENTIRE ARTICLE, THEN WE DO OUR OWN RESEARCH. I would never buy into what someone on the net says. Also 2 different sites are researching this issue and it seems his terminology is way different than ours. There is no such thing as fish by-product. My dog does fantastic on Orijen and the pictures prove it, where are your pictures ZOO????


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sounds to me like they are using what remains after they remove the fillet, which is perfectly fine for dogs. 

It is not substandard food, it is good food with a meaty portion removed. I feed whole fish, but if I were to feed a fish that had the fillet removed, I would add some muscle meat and it would be good. 

I do not see a problem with this product as an ingredient.


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Here we go again, only putting up part of the quote, read the article carefully because it says
> 
> """samples of minced by-products for testing""""
> 
> ...


It is you who are not reading the words properly. It says "we sell all minced by-products to them, and they in turn buy all the product we have to offer". In other words, Champion buys all the minced by-products the company has to sell. The next paragraph explains how the relationship started.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I would never buy into what someone on the net says.


:rofl: The irony is too funny.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> I would never buy into what someone on the net says.


So it's a case of 'do as I say not as I do'? YOU are on here constantly screaming about food, and if anyone dares to disagree with you, you begin the sarcasm and now you have lowered to threats. 

I wonder how many other forums are experiencing your form of food education?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: The irony is too funny.


:spittingcoffee:


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Zookeep said:


> It is you who are not reading the words properly. It says "we sell all minced by-products to them, and they in turn buy all the product we have to offer". In other words, Champion buys all the minced by-products the company has to sell. The next paragraph explains how the relationship started.


Yes they do buy it according to this article and it also says that they have ""developed a product"". So they might not use all the product, but since their is no such thing as fish by-product it is only speculation on your part what it actually is AND how much they use. It used to be sent to a rendering factory so no one knows where it was ending up at. If you buy a T-Bone steak do you eat the whole thing, no you don't eat the bone and most likely cut out the largest amount of fat, who say's they don't,,, YOU. NOW PLEASE POST A PICTURE OF YOU DOG UP CLOSE SO I CAN SEE HIS SHINNY COAT WITH SUPER CLEAR EYES. The proof about Orijen is in these pictures , now I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THE SAME.


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Here we go again, only putting up part of the quote, read the article carefully because it says
> 
> """samples of minced by-products for testing""""
> 
> ...


What about this part of the article:

"This business brings in several hundred thousand dollars 
in revenue for a product that previously cost us money to 
dispose of"

The stuff they were paying someone to haul away is now purchased by Champion.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> but since their is no such thing as fish by-product


If there is no such thing as "fish by-product" then why is a company that creates it calling it a minced "by-product". I would think the company that creates it and sells it would know there is no such thing. Silly them.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

The impression I got was that by-products mean different things to different industries---therefore, by-product that a human food company is selling is different than what a pet food industry must label by-product. Is this incorrect?


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Yes they do buy it according to this article and it also says that they have ""developed a product"". So they might not use all the product, but since their is no such thing as fish by-product it is only speculation on your part what it actually is. It used to be sent to a rendering factory so no one knows where it was ending up at. NOW PLEASE POST A PICTURE OF YOU DOG UP CLOSE SO I CAN SEE HIS SHINNY COAT WITH SUPER CLEAR EYES. The proof about Orijen is in these pictures , now I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THE SAME.


I am not sure what you are expecting to learn from a photograph, but here you go


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I really don't have a problem with the fish product from what it sounds like but the advertising on the web page certainly leads you to believe that fish fit for human consumption arrives at Champion for future processing. If this mince was suitable for fish cakes it is hard to understand why the fish company would not sell it for that purpose instead of spending money to dispose of it..


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I've given my dog fish whole minus innards and fins.. animals usually consume fish whole . Except picky bears. They take the best part of the salmon and leave the rest for scavengers... but I digress...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I really don't have a problem with the fish product from what it sounds like but the advertising on the web page certainly leads you to believe that fish fit for human consumption arrives at Champion for future processing. If this mince was suitable for fish cakes it is hard to understand why the fish company would not sell it for that purpose instead of spending money to dispose of it..


Good point. Would love to hear a company response, from either of them. 

FWIW, Rocket was on Orijen until about 8 weeks ago. Looked fabulous, was perfect health. He did not love the LBP, though. I switched him to Castor-Pollux organix, which he LOVED, but am not happy with the change in his coat. Not quite as shiny, smooth and nice. I've switched him back. I will see what the next 8 weeks brings.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting...this information appears to be a year old.

8/2011
Champion Petfoods and fish "waste" (by-products)? - YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community

Freshwater Fish sells all minced by-products to Champion Petfoods

Did I expect to much of Champion Petfood?

whew..someone better get on the phone with those mods and OP's to let them know what a fight they started!

Correct...there doesn't seem to be such a thing as "fish by-product". However there is

Fisheries (Reporting) Regulations 2001 - THIRD: Codes used in completing returns

Tentacles by-product
Gut by-product
Fish meal by-product
Minced by-product, headed and gutted
Minced by-product, skin off fillets


So what exactly is in "minced by-product"?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Therein lies the question, doesn't it? The million dollar question.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> So what exactly is in "minced by-product"?


I think it's what my 7-year-old calls Hans's food: "Gross stuff."


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

What is the point of this thread? It seams like for every product produced, there is someone to bash it for one reason or another. My dog loves Acana pacifica and his coat is the nicest it has ever been.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

robk said:


> What is the point of this thread? It seams like for every product produced, there is someone to bash it for one reason or another. My dog loves Acana pacifica and his coat is the nicest it has ever been.


I think nothing more than a warning the price was going up and bag pounds were going down.

I say, it it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you can afford the increase, no issue.

I once strongly considered Acana, but had to look towards more budget conscious choices.


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## jimj (May 30, 2012)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Here we go again, only putting up part of the quote, read the article carefully because it says
> 
> 
> ****I would never buy into what someone on the net says. ****


No truer words have ever been written (bold) and should remembered when reading how absolutely fantastic Orijen is (and how bad people who don't use it are) in the the many,many posts on this forum.
Just a thought...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> NOW PLEASE POST A PICTURE OF YOU DOG UP CLOSE SO I CAN SEE HIS SHINNY COAT WITH SUPER CLEAR EYES. The proof about Orijen is in these pictures , now I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THE SAME.


So those pics were taken when he was 21 months old. He was a baby in 11/2009 so that would make them wayyyy out of date.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Sooooooooo. where are any pictures to PROVE anything, except Tony is looking awesome on Orijen. Buuuut, in order to prove it, I will take new pics tomorrow. Well you do any pictures, at all?????


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

jimj said:


> No truer words have ever been written (bold) and should remembered when reading how absolutely fantastic Orijen is (and how bad people who don't use it are) in the the many,many posts on this forum.
> Just a thought...


ILY. Welcome aboard friend!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Sooooooooo. where are any pictures to PROVE anything, except Tony is looking awesome on Orijen. Buuuut, in order to prove it, I will take new pics tomorrow. Well you do any pictures, at all?????


Actually, I don't care about coat pics -- show me poop pics. Now THAT will impress me.

Show me yours and I'll show you mine -- coat and poo. It isn't all about the coat to me. It is about the entire health of the dog on all ends, so to speak. Ears, nails, coat, elimination. All of that tell the tale of health in my novice mind.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

3ToesTonyismydog said:


> Sooooooooo. where are any pictures to PROVE anything, except Tony is looking awesome on Orijen. Buuuut, in order to prove it, I will take new pics tomorrow. Well you do any pictures, at all?????


Here's my other dog, Louie (Lucy's brother). He's been doing great on Orijen. Just check out this pictures for proof. 

Nothing says scientific proof like a picture.


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